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中華民國114年10月20日 星期一上午9時至11時32分地點 紅樓301會議室 出席委員陳永康等9人 列席委員洪孟凱等8人請教委員王定宇 沈博洋 列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員台灣國際造船股份有限公司董事長陳振宏 主席馬昭吉委員文君報告實行 以宣讀上次會議思路決定確定"},{"start":1649.739,"end":1666.066,"text":"二 邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告潛艦國造原型艦海撤執行現況及因應作為並請台灣國際造船股份有限公司董事長列席並被質詢國防部部長顧立雄海軍造船發展中心主任顧志忠報告"},{"start":1666.906,"end":1690.872,"text":"委員羅美玲等11人質詢軍有國防部部長顧立雄副參謀總長執行官黃志偉常務次長楊基榮政務辦公室主任孫立芳海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長李慶然海軍造船發展中心主任顧志忠國家中山科學研究院院長李士強及台灣國際造船股份有限公司董事長陳正宏等即席答覆"},{"start":1691.561,"end":1692.242,"text":"我們請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1720.456,"end":1731.001,"text":"報告事項邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告近期台美關係及關稅談判進展並請行政院經貿談判辦公室經濟部農業部列席並備質詢宣讀完畢我們現在先介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員以及我們外交部林佳龍林部長"},{"start":1750.617,"end":1774.074,"text":"亞東太平洋司林昭宏林司長亞西及非洲司陳永博副司長歐洲司李秀堯副秘書長拉丁美洲及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長北美司王良玉王司長條約法律司許伯義許副司長"},{"start":1777.158,"end":1801.003,"text":"國際組織司 張佩薩 張副司長國際合作及經濟事務司 連玉平 連司長國際傳播司 張秀珍 張司長研究設計會 柯良瑞 柯主任秘書處 陳景林 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半導體製造高科技產業以及關鍵礦物等領域的合作還有共同打造非紅供應鏈均展現高度發展的潛能"},{"start":2020.774,"end":2046.202,"text":"那麼在過去一年多來外交部秉持賴總統的指導方針積極推動價值外交理念以及經濟日不落國的願景與各部會協同推進台美雙邊及多邊議題展現台灣作為國際社會可靠可信賴而且是不可或缺的夥伴角色那麼以及深化台美互利雙贏的夥伴關係以下請就近期台美關係的重要發展及經貿與關稅談判進展向貴委員會報告"},{"start":2050.868,"end":2053.35,"text":"那麼在美國行政部門具體的對台的一個台海的一個和平穩定的支持那麼方面"},{"start":2066.192,"end":2092.714,"text":"首先川普新政府上任之後多次在各類的國際跟多邊場合明確重申對台的支持那麼近期包括連續第三次在美日韓三國的外長聯合聲明以及九月聯大期間的七大工業國集團G7外長聯合聲明中都強調維持台海和平穩定的重要性並反對任何片面以武力改變現況的企圖"},{"start":2094.355,"end":2119.872,"text":"而美國國務卿Rubio以及戰爭部長Haggisett等高層官員也多次的公開重申此一立場那麼在針對賴總統先前宣布台灣國防支出將在明年達到GDP的3.32%並渴望在2030年達到5%那以國境演說中呢總統也再次宣示台灣持續增加支出以強化國防"},{"start":2120.95,"end":2136.807,"text":"美國國務院亦表達高度的支持與肯定強調美方首要任務是維護台海的和平與穩定將持續致力於遵守《台灣關係法》以確保台灣擁有與所面臨的威脅相稱的充分自衛的能力"},{"start":2137.868,"end":2156.547,"text":"再來美方並持續聯合各國以軍艦通過台海其具體行動展現對自由航行原則的支持防止中國將台海內海化的企圖也充分體現美方維護印太安全與區域穩定的決心在近期台美經貿關係與產業合作方面"},{"start":2159.009,"end":2173.326,"text":"首先美國再工業化是川普重要的政策而除了半導體製造人工智慧也是一個重點的產業美國政府在今年7月推出了人工智慧行動方案就是AI action plan"},{"start":2173.846,"end":2198.348,"text":"那旨在維持美國在全球AI競賽中能夠大幅領先而基於台灣在硬體優勢以及台美高科技互補關係本部亦與相關的部會合作評估與美方在AI領域的潛在合作點其與美國強大軟體生態系結合透過軟加硬的模式深化合作也有助於我國廠商的國際布局"},{"start":2199.212,"end":2216.761,"text":"那麼另外在中國最近宣布的稀土出口管制危及到全世界科技及經濟發展美國已表示將與歐洲盟友澳洲 加拿大 印度以及其他亞洲民主國家合作集體來回應中國的稀土出口管制措施"},{"start":2217.701,"end":2245.577,"text":"外交部歡迎美方加強與歐亞等民主夥伴合作共同建立稀土以及關鍵礦物供應鏈我們也在研議在台美經濟繁榮夥伴對話就是EPPD的這個既有機制下就相關議題進行交流及合作共同來打造全球關鍵礦物飛鴻供應鏈這不僅有助於強化台灣半導體產業的韌性也有利於推進台灣投資美國隊"},{"start":2246.638,"end":2270.317,"text":"也就是打造台美聯合艦隊以強化我國在台美合作的戰略角色那麼特別是在最近台美的這個投資還有貿易方面那麼今年的農產品貿易訪問美國的友好訪問團在本年9月中旬訪問美國法股跟相關的農業州而這個是自1998年以來第15次籌組農訪團赴美"},{"start":2274.56,"end":2301.871,"text":"展現台美友好的農業貿易關係以及台灣市場對美國農產品的重要性我國相關產業工協會在美期間與美國相關協會簽署採購意向書而是指中國大幅減少採購美國農產品之際實際上傳遞了台灣系美國重要農業貿易以及糧食安全夥伴的正面訊息深受川普政府的重視那麼同時呢美國的農業部長"},{"start":2304.332,"end":2318.739,"text":"這個Brooke Rawlings也親自貼文肯定我農訪團到訪以及台美農業貿易關係而我國政府在農訪團結束訪美行程之後美國的農業部主管貿易以及對外農業事務次長"},{"start":2321.2,"end":2345.309,"text":"Luke Lindbergh也在同月的30號率領產業團來訪台就台美在農業創新科技及糧食安全任性的合作交換意見那麼Lindbergh次長亦在訪台期間宣布美國將開放台灣鳳梨進入美國市場彰顯台美在農業領域的合作時機更上一層樓"},{"start":2346.269,"end":2359.965,"text":"那麼在美方堅持支持我國參與國際組織及活動還有反制中國的法律戰方面那麼川普政府持續率同理念相近的國家支持我國有意義的參與國際組織並明確反駁中國對法"},{"start":2364.27,"end":2379.399,"text":"對台的法律戰的舉措如公開指出中方誤用聯大第2758號決議阻礙台灣在聯合國體系之參與而本年4月美方首度於聯合國安理會會議嚴正批評中國誤用聯大第2758號決議重申該決議並未排除台灣參與聯合國體系以及多邊的論壇而美國運輸部長"},{"start":2389.004,"end":2404.856,"text":"並以連續兩屆在國際民航組織大會明確發言支持台灣參加ACAO那麼美國駐團的代辦也首度在本屆大會指出中方扭曲聯大2758號決議重申該決議並未排除台灣參與如ACAO等技術及專門的機構持續以具體的行動表達對我的堅定支持"},{"start":2413.723,"end":2438.628,"text":"此外 美國在台協會在9月12日公開表示中國刻意曲解二戰時期的文件企圖藉以支持中國脅迫台灣的行徑直指北京的論述完全是虛假不實的是意圖將台灣孤立於國際社會之外並限制其他國家與台灣互動的主權選擇而這些都是更廣泛行動"},{"start":2441.281,"end":2455.513,"text":"中間的一環在美國國會方面也展現對台灣及台美關係強勁的跨黨派支持美國國會持續透過立法作為展現對台灣及強化台美安全合作的堅定支持美國"},{"start":2456.934,"end":2479.101,"text":"國會本年1月開議期間聯邦參眾兩院已提出近60項與台灣相關的法案以及有我的決議案而其中呢 繼美國聯邦眾議院在9月通過了2026會計年度的國防授權法案那麼之後呢 聯邦參議院也在10月9日通過了參院版的"},{"start":2479.901,"end":2502.24,"text":"NDAA兩院通過的版本均納入多項協助強化台灣防衛能力與韌性的有我條文展現美國國會跨黨派持續透過立法作為堅定支持與台灣強化安全合作那麼此外跨黨派重量級的聯邦參眾議員也接連訪台本年除了參眾外交委員會亞太小組"},{"start":2504.597,"end":2522.536,"text":"瑞克茲、聯邦參議員Darkworth、達克沃斯等參議員之外軍事委員會主席維克還有訪問團更是近十年來首度訪台的參院軍事委員會主席"},{"start":2523.217,"end":2531.63,"text":"那麼在台美雙邊持續強化安全的合作也共同實踐以實力維繫和平那麼更加顯得這個台美關係的一個進展"},{"start":2535.373,"end":2554.645,"text":"而本年包括眾議院天然資源委員會主席、魏德曼聯邦眾議院國會台灣連線共同主席貝拉等多位重要的聯邦眾議院訪台,都充分展現美國國會兩院跨黨派對台堅定的支持的一個政治共識。"},{"start":2555.586,"end":2571.611,"text":"那麼最後在台美關稅談判進展方面行政院鄭麗君副院長經貿談判辦公室楊真理總談判代表率領的我方談判團隊在美東時間9月底與華府與美國貿易代表署以及商務部就對等關稅等經貿議題"},{"start":2573.611,"end":2598.798,"text":"進行了第五輪實體的磋商而我方秉持國家利益以及產業利益持續與美方磋商總統亦公開表示美方所公布之稅率僅為暫時性措施執政團隊必將再接再厲持續爭取合理的稅率那麼待雙方就對等關稅232條款相關優惠待遇及供應鏈合作呢達成完整的共識之後便會進入總結會議來達成台美的貿易協定"},{"start":2603.379,"end":2614.624,"text":"那麼最後外交部在總統及行政院的指導之下將持續與美方及理念相近國家協力推動合作積極參與供應鏈重組與經貿安全的議題以強化台灣的戰略角色與合作價值並持續鞏固我國在區域與全球體系中的關鍵地位"},{"start":2624.068,"end":2635.255,"text":"以及與區域夥伴共同促進印太區域及台海的和平穩定與繁榮以上的報告謝謝主席還有各位委員那麼敬請大院不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":2644.724,"end":2655.672,"text":"我們現在補充介紹羅美玲委員陳俊宇委員請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 那議事錄確定"},{"start":2666.391,"end":2681.062,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":2696.259,"end":2724.476,"text":"主席有請外交部林部長林部長部長早安委員長剛才聽取了您的報告當然我們很肯定外交部在這個廣泛的領域不只是經貿甚至是國際安全和平的問題上所做的努力剛才在您的報告的第二頁我提出一點建議"},{"start":2725.748,"end":2748.622,"text":"就是阔湖三岚美方并联合各国以军舰通过台海之实际行动展现对自由航行的原则支持防止中国将台海内海化的企图充分展现美方维护印太安全战略区域稳定的决心这里面我也请条法司司长您方便的话"},{"start":2754.244,"end":2778.462,"text":"因为这个里面有涉及到联合国海洋法公约1982年的unclass那么菲律宾输入海对菲律宾来讲它是群岛水域没有国家接受它是内海那么如果台海现阶段还不是内海实际上是公海根本不可能变内海"},{"start":2779.622,"end":2790.856,"text":"那美國其他的國家通過台海它是Freedom of Navigation就是FON那如果像在南海"},{"start":2791.909,"end":2810.286,"text":"人工岛礁中国说这个是我是岛他画了经济海画了领海基线这个时候美国不接受他宣布这个是你的自然的岛屿所以你没有领海于是他派专军舰穿过中共所画的领海线"},{"start":2811.027,"end":2835.406,"text":"那叫Freedom of Navigation Operation那这是政策但是军舰去执行任务的时候就叫做Found Ops Operations所以这个建议外交部把这个做一个区分好 好吧好 谢谢那后面的几个问题我也要请这个经贸办公室的执行秘书一起谢谢"},{"start":2838.671,"end":2844.389,"text":"部長您好您看這個圖前一次已經用過一次但是我們在持續在修正"},{"start":2845.27,"end":2869.332,"text":"因为我们做的分析是关税谈判代表它是全班的高阶的策略逻辑分析最主要是川普讲了关税问题不只是经济问题是美国的国安问题但一旦讲到国安问题它就涉及到地缘政治地缘经济地缘战略所以它不是存在经济谈判过程中间只focus在经济关税问题了是"},{"start":2869.952,"end":2896.058,"text":"他的目的呢他强调美国优先不能赚美国的钱您在这个报告里都提过可是川普总统他非常聪明他在展现个人卓越第二个不可预测第二个他主导所有政策的发展所以我们从美国的本质目的方法到手段那这个手段的过程中间刚才经贸谈判您也提过了我们已经参加过五轮十次线上会议"},{"start":2897.386,"end":2923.574,"text":"在這個過程中間你看過他的財長是扮演白臉他的商務部長是黑臉那USTR的這個代表他是法律專家他左右調節那這次這個五個輪迴回來了以後現在跟中國要談的就是稀土關稅百分百結果美方其實內部他有一個分析就是在左下角這個第一個你在這個談判過程中間你的底線"},{"start":2924.614,"end":2952.332,"text":"你能不能承担affordability第二个就是说美国的人民跟国际对你的信任度有多少第三个你有没有一个调节的空间第四个达成率有多少对应的是什么第一个我先把你国际情势各种国际组织先拆开来第二个拆除隐性第三个去风险第四个实在不行就脱钩在这个metrics里面他选出的结果就这一次美国财政部长来扮黑脸了"},{"start":2953.506,"end":2967.131,"text":"他说美中可脱钩可锻炼但是留了一个弹数双方领导可再谈于是川普总统就讲了我跟习近平总统是好朋友我们在APEC会面"},{"start":2968.444,"end":2992.666,"text":"大概要谈希土芬太尼大豆还有台湾的问题所以你看到它是一个loop里面重复的滚动修正而且我们不要把这个问题把它绑死也就是说我们有一个完整的对应方案这个方案怎么来参考因为它永远是黑脸白脸左右换脸然后上面施压最后回路重新调整我对你示好请看下一张"},{"start":2995.512,"end":3023.466,"text":"这张图表就是显示中美经贸谈判这个我们做一个参考它的策略分析战略策略分析第一个优势部分经济基础科技实力谈判工具国际影响力美方跟中方各有优势最后它有结构性的差异那劣势部分就是内部的约制经济的弱度执行的成本战略的困境同样结构性的差异"},{"start":3024.349,"end":3048.388,"text":"那最后我们就到美中谈判双方内部调整的空间政策的灵活度创新的路径合作的领域谈判的策略最后做结构性的差异我提这个东西主要是一个方法论提供您那边内部做参考是就是说在国际谈判过程中间我们是报的对友好人"},{"start":3049.471,"end":3072.636,"text":"就是说非常诚恳坦率地谈但是我是建议里面有些tolerance您要留在你的谈判底线因为它不是单独的经济问题它前面已经讲了它把国安就是说地缘政治地缘经济地缘战略的问题全部纠结在一起因此这个对我们经贸谈判代表如果是纯粹从关税经贸"},{"start":3073.556,"end":3092.174,"text":"你看到他跟中共玩的两手策略对国际的情势他永远他保持他有调节的空间那也就是在这种情况下我们要有自己的一个tolerance底线口袋绝对不要一厢情愿对他丝毫通通掏出来了要有一个回路调整的空间"},{"start":3092.854,"end":3109.923,"text":"以上的这几个方法论我们下去后提供这个部里面同仁做参考另外也有机会我们互相探讨在国际谈判过程中间不要只是focus在经济问题因为他把国安的问题卷进来了以后他通常会拿国际情势的变动"},{"start":3111.007,"end":3130.715,"text":"来反映到它要做改变策略的一个论述基础所以错永远不在它是国际情势可变但是可变不可预测如果我们没有一个结构的分析方法论有的时候会吃亏提请部长做参考看看部长你有什么指导"},{"start":3131.341,"end":3144.796,"text":"我覺得委員確實我們也應徵您的方法論這個關稅談判絕對不是單稅一般貿易的問題是以從國安角度那必須要有一個架構那這樣一個分析也證明從對等關稅還有232條款"},{"start":3148.94,"end":3163.226,"text":"還有所謂的人工智慧行動發展甚至到最近的稀土有關於供應鏈的重組那美國的政策目標除了現在當然是要透過關稅來減低他的財政的負擔還有可以"},{"start":3165.373,"end":3175.856,"text":"但是呢可能其他的政策目標就是剛剛委員提到的在其他的戰略層次其實我們也要去對應它那這個也就是說這不是零和這是好幾個層次的這個交疊那我們的政策目標在哪裡什麼樣創造美國這個是優先台灣也優先那就是說讓"},{"start":3188.462,"end":3197.031,"text":"台美可以有互利雙贏的空間這個就是我們我想站在國安戰略的角度就不同於只是一個純粹的關稅貿易的談判"},{"start":3201.227,"end":3228.906,"text":"現在提醒調法師也特別要花點功夫協助有關所謂的經濟海域 領海 內水有關聯合國海洋法公約Unclosed裡面的定義在國際法裡面我們怎麼樣掌握論述的道理而不是被帶動的由接受這些對方提出的條件以上提出參考謝謝部長 我們大家共同努力我們會好好的運用 謝謝"},{"start":3235.432,"end":3243.628,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請羅美玲委員上台不好意思接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":3256.104,"end":3264.837,"text":"好謝謝召委我們有請林佳龍部長及徐崇清執行秘書有請部長還有執秘部長早 執秘早"},{"start":3272.472,"end":3285.67,"text":"部長我們上週在諮詢的過程裡面也曾經請教過部長在月底即將召開的APEC領袖會議是否會安排與美方或其他國家進行雙邊會談"},{"start":3287.612,"end":3311.846,"text":"那當時部長您也回應都在規劃安排當中那我想今天再接續這個議題這幾天我們外電報導韓國跟美國之間的這個關稅談判已經取得了一個實質性的一個進展那並且有可能在月底的這個峰會上來達成協議我想我先請教執密就是針對這個部分我們對於美韓之間的這個關稅談判"},{"start":3313.508,"end":3325.147,"text":"可能先行達成的協議我們是否有掌握到包括這個韓國跟美國投資的相關方案還有協議的關稅稅率的相關的內容 有嗎"},{"start":3327.429,"end":3340.907,"text":"報告委員我們對於這個相關的報導我們都有所掌握韓國跟美國的情況其實他們在七月底就有達成的協議他們現在是就這個細節的部分再做進一步的確認"},{"start":3343.73,"end":3372.139,"text":"已經我們都有掌握了內容都掌握了那對於台灣來說談判所涉及的這個項目可能更加的複雜當然也看到這一次作為我們談判代表的這個楊真理政委將出席這個峰會的雙部長會議那我們也期待在這一次參與APEC會議上除了能夠促進雙邊和多邊的經貿合作也能夠對於我們關稅談判上有所幫助"},{"start":3373.38,"end":3392.537,"text":"總統在昨天接受訪問的時候也提到我們跟美國的談判並不涉及到匯率並且在近日應該會有好的進展我想請教部長我們在這次APEC會議前有沒有機會再安排與美方實體磋商或是有可能什麼樣的實質進展"},{"start":3394.699,"end":3408.586,"text":"那另外 除了總統交付的這個代表團三大任務以外台灣在這次的這個峰會上是否有預期能夠達到什麼樣的一個目標為國家爭取最大的利益是我們殖民先請回"},{"start":3410.153,"end":3422.621,"text":"報告委員APEC在韓國召開因為它的主題其中一個是跟人工智慧另外一個就是跟少子化人口結構的變化這兩大議題我們對應的都有"},{"start":3427.044,"end":3440.373,"text":"針對這個有倡議甚至我們除了APEC之外我們也有所謂的企業代表就企業諮詢委員會那也都有提出這些倡議甚至我們也有一些成立基金來針對我們台灣對於像用這個智慧醫療跟數位科技去解決這個健康照護的問題"},{"start":3450.06,"end":3470.037,"text":"所以我們是可以積極的倡議另外呢在這一個雙邊的會議在雙邊的會談上我們當然會很多場邊的會議都有在交涉中有一些理念相近的國家那因為有一些是屬於大會那當然涉及到每個國家派的代表領袖代表"},{"start":3471.974,"end":3481.259,"text":"那麼在這個場邊當然美方如果有跟有關於關稅談判有關的應該也會自然的有接觸"},{"start":3482.475,"end":3502.992,"text":"那麼至於說我們這次是更主動的針對AI的方面因為台灣也有一個AI新十大建設的一個方案那我們又是半導體的大國所以這個部分各國都很有興趣跟我們談所以這一次呢所謂雙部長會議啊除了楊貞妮政委她主導這個行政院經貿談判辦公室的總談判代表以外我們也是有這個安排"},{"start":3508.736,"end":3519.925,"text":"國科會的主委 吳承文主委因為他是AI方面的專家這方面我想應該配合林新義這個領袖代表整個在APEC上面"},{"start":3524.414,"end":3530.317,"text":"我們除了倡議 除了一些雙邊的場邊會談我們也會針對這個跟台灣大家有關心的半導體跟AI怎麼去打造民主供應鏈特別是最近稀土的議題我想這次APEC會被廣泛交換意見甚至促成進一步合作的機會"},{"start":3547.005,"end":3570.372,"text":"好 那另外這個川普總統在日前接受訪問的時候他有提到說他月底這個會有一個川習會的可能那會討論到台灣的議題那更表示自己在明年的這個年初會去訪問中國那我想再請教部長就是在美中貿易戰升溫的這個情況之下我們有沒有掌握到川習會針對台灣這個議題可能會討論的相關內容走向會是什麼"},{"start":3575.602,"end":3585.332,"text":"因為我想真的公開的資訊那川普總統本身有表達他並沒有要去談嘛當然對方他認為這個習近平應該是很重視這個台灣的議題不過我想這個場合我們也了解他重點不在於處理這個兩岸的關係"},{"start":3595.482,"end":3598.603,"text":"但是我們跟美方都保持密切的溝通他們也都有不斷地在強調對台的堅定的支持他們跟中國之間的互動不會去傷害到台灣事實上我們雙方面也都保持密切的溝通聯繫可是因為這個整個APEC和川習會與否都還在發展中"},{"start":3619.89,"end":3649.57,"text":"沒有到最後一刻其實我們誰都還不能夠講最後的方案最後的一個可能出現的方式是什麼我們密切觀察好 那接續談到這個台美之間的相關合作從我們對等關稅實施之後那部長也多次提到要加速實現這個台美聯合艦隊擴大促進台美雙向的這個投資而以台灣模式共同來打造產業聚落的一個構想"},{"start":3650.511,"end":3668.151,"text":"也納入關稅談判的討論議題當中我想再接續請教部長不論是針對台灣模式或是台美聯合艦隊的這個願景我們和美方有沒有進一步聚焦合作的一個規劃如何能夠確保我們的國家利益不受損"},{"start":3669.386,"end":3679.488,"text":"跟委員報告其實台美關係是很多層次而且是可以說是很緊密所以有些人在談到說因為現在涉及到對等關係的談判那我們怎麼樣對台灣不是是被動甚至我們主動去推動對台灣有利的台美關係這也就是為什麼我今年五月率團去訪問德州促成所謂的這個"},{"start":3694.33,"end":3703.697,"text":"這個台灣Tower的計畫那也是跟後來所謂台灣模式裡面在談到所謂類科學園區那當然這個其實是我們的一個整個對供應鏈的一個重整我們的一個擴展那我想美國當然是一個很競爭的社會不過也充滿了挑戰還有機會所以我覺得這個除了產業的投資還有這個包括整個供應鏈的重組"},{"start":3722.19,"end":3738.214,"text":"那怎麼樣建立更好的美台的關係所以在亞利桑那州就是以台積電為主的半導體投資在德州也有環球晶這兩個半導體投資的重鎮再加上AI現在各個大廠都去了所以怎麼樣能夠整合出一個對台灣最有利的一個經驗輸出而且壯大台灣"},{"start":3743.315,"end":3748.14,"text":"在布局美國的過程當中所以這是打造台美聯合艦隊那所謂的台灣Tower就提供一站式的服務那因為各個大的一個產業他們這些的投資他們可能有自己的工業區所以我們要把它整合起來能夠跟美方談包括像土地 水電 法令還有涉及到的非常多投資的優惠"},{"start":3766.537,"end":3769.278,"text":"甚至回來幫助台灣在關稅的談判還有半導體這些所謂的投資上面是對我們有利的所以我想這個是台灣Tower放在這裡面在德州我想"},{"start":3781.723,"end":3799.575,"text":"民間的敏感度是最高的所以包括直航所以最近除了台灣跟Houston之外也跟Dallas有了這個直航我想這個都是可以看到說民間企業界他們的一個投資佈局那我們怎麼去打造所謂的聯合艦隊就是能夠政府跟民間能夠公私協力扮演一個能夠把台灣的經驗輸出以外能夠善用美國包括他們的科技資金跟人才"},{"start":3812.946,"end":3822.204,"text":"我接續要請教的剛剛部長您已經大概講得非常清楚了我們這個台美雙方的這個產業聚落地點應該確定就是在德州了嗎"},{"start":3823.5,"end":3852.199,"text":"應該說民間已經都去投資我們政府的角色如果也能夠加入可以發揮更大的中效比如說我想從資本市場都可以看到以AI Server為主要打造AI資料中心這個是AI計算非常重要所以不只是說像Stargate還有像NVIDIA他們都有超過5000億以上的投資而這些硬體的設備或未來有一些系統整合跟一些方面的一個"},{"start":3854.681,"end":3869.267,"text":"就是合資我想台灣都可以扮演一些角色那我們台灣套這個計畫已經都就行政院有召開過跨部會的協調因為這剛好啊我們中油在這邊有地如果不用也會被收回去"},{"start":3869.787,"end":3871.967,"text":"所以我們希望把這個土地轉嫁成一個類似我們這種一站式服務然後能夠美台雙方都進駐然後跟我們的企業包括金融 人才的育成還有這些其他的服務能夠在這個地方這個就是所謂打造我們講的台灣Tower當然希望它的一個"},{"start":3894.796,"end":3916.745,"text":"建物 未來的投資來自於政府還有企業各方面能夠成為我們的一個地標好 那不論是關稅談判還是這個經貿合作那我們也請我們的這個談判的團隊和我們外交部務必以維護我們國家的利益為優先那如果能夠掌握新的資訊也能夠盡快的讓我們國人能夠了解"},{"start":3917.325,"end":3938.433,"text":"我跟委員再補充一下在這邊所謂台灣套不只是我們台灣投資美國隊也是美國投資台灣隊所以美國想要投資台灣透過這個窗口我們可以提供它一站式的服務也提供我們台灣已經在美國要投資的人我們政府G2G跟美國應該做些什麼事來招商而這招商是雙向的是所謂聯合艦隊就是台灣投資美國隊也有美國投資台灣隊謝謝好 謝謝部長"},{"start":3948.781,"end":3951.643,"text":"接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請我們林部長請部長"},{"start":3969.522,"end":3976.63,"text":"美好部長早安部長今天我們要講到的是台美關係那川普剛上任的時候其實有很多的國人對於川普政府跟台灣之間的關係會產生變化會不會漸行漸遠這件事情呢其實產生了很多的擔憂跟疑慮"},{"start":3985.479,"end":4007.775,"text":"可是我们可以从美方现在持续的坚定的支持我国有意义的参与国际的组织还有部长刚刚你有提到就是今年4月的时候其实美国首次在联合国安理会严正的批评就是中方误用联大第2758号的决议美国今年1月份到现在其实联邦参众两院也都提出了"},{"start":4013.619,"end":4033.421,"text":"將近60項跟台灣相關的法案跟郵務的捷運所以說就像我們看到中國持續操作法律戰跟歷史戰要來藉由扭曲甚至二戰文件來主張台灣的主權我們看到美國在台協會AIT在今年9月很罕見的指出說"},{"start":4034.282,"end":4045.929,"text":"中國試圖扭曲開羅宣言跟波茲坦公告跟舊金山合約等等的歷史文件強調這些二戰的相關文件未決定台灣的最終政治地位然後這些也獲得美國國務院的背書我有看到一些學者指出說這一次美方救台灣地位的問題是由模糊轉向清晰我想請問部長因為部長之前也曾經做過一些回應"},{"start":4062.898,"end":4085.484,"text":"你那時候有提到就是說其實像開洛宣言也好波茲坦這個公告其實它其實就是一個新聞公告其實也不是條約就算是後來你很強硬的回應說像舊西山合約其實它只是聲明日本必須放棄台灣澎湖的所有的權利其實並沒有很明確的告知台灣的主權的歸屬所以台灣"},{"start":4091.506,"end":4117.503,"text":"政治地位未定論就是從這樣子論述來的我想請問部長就是說從過去我們看到說美國對台灣其實一直都是採很模糊的定位說可是到現在很明確了已經很明說覺得台灣就是一個未定位它的政治地位未定位我想問請教部長像美國這種態度的改變它最大的原因是什麼"},{"start":4118.223,"end":4120.324,"text":"是因為中國已經在改變現狀而且透過法律戰為他武力犯台鋪設基礎那從聯合國2758號決議為什麼這個美國國務院在去年就有四點很清楚的說明"},{"start":4138.969,"end":4145.096,"text":"就是然後包括各國的議會還有包括歐洲議會有陸續通過所謂2758號決議不涉及台灣因為這150個字裡面都沒有談到台灣那可是中共卻不斷的就是想要這個有一點就是做法律戰的操弄在"},{"start":4160.572,"end":4185.396,"text":"最近又因為所謂的三個八十年也就是1945年不管是二戰結束或是抗戰勝利還有包括所謂的關乎台灣成立聯合國這些組織等而中共發動了一波的法律戰在法理上企圖把台灣是中國的一部分尤其是中華人民共和國的一部分"},{"start":4186.976,"end":4215.225,"text":"這個變成在一個認知作戰的一部分所以這個時候我想理念相近的國家都必須要來澄清所以這個是為了捍衛現狀那麼因此呢 中共企圖因為中華人民共和國是成立在1949年嘛可是他怎麼去解釋1945年所謂的這一個三個八十年的歷史事件所以美國我想我們看到的是他們已經不止一次那麼AIT也好 國務院也好去釐清"},{"start":4216.385,"end":4243.463,"text":"對於所謂開羅宣言 波茨坦公告到舊青山合約這個不涉及中共講的台灣是中國的一部分或所謂的一中原則但是站在台灣的角度來講當然台灣我們是一個民主的國家我們有民選的政府 我們有三次政黨輪替我們在國際上有辦法行使主權能力所以當然基於聯合國宣言或憲章的精神"},{"start":4243.963,"end":4250.069,"text":"還有基於這個國民主權的原則我們當然沒有說什麼台灣TVA聽了我們當然認為台灣實際上就是我們台灣人民經過民主的實踐已經不斷地肯認那國際上也是認為台灣人民的一個這個不管是民主的一個意志或是"},{"start":4266.24,"end":4292.584,"text":"我們一些主權的行為是應該要有參加國際組織包括聯合國跟周邊組織的機會跟權力所以部長您對於這個AIT說這些文件為決定台灣的最終政治地位這部分其實您認為說其實台灣本來在國際上就有自己的所謂的政治地位其實我們就是一個主權獨立的國家所以您對於這個AIT的說法是有一些不同的想法嗎是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":4293.844,"end":4302.287,"text":"應該說對於這個歷史的一個歷史本身的說明這個是針對這三個文件已經當時我想美國並沒有針對後面也就是台灣民主化之後或現在國際對於台灣中華民國我們在國際上的一個國家的地位所以這個有些人當然只因為美國實在有一點是回應啦"},{"start":4320.974,"end":4334.171,"text":"中國對於歷史的扭曲而且是法律戰的一部分所以你可以看到就是不斷的記者去詢問的時候美方的一個回應還是都很一致的"},{"start":4335.778,"end":4354.467,"text":"這是在講歷史 歷史為什麼重要因為它會變成中共的所謂一中原則從這裡跑出來而這個會鋪設它無力犯台的法理基礎所以全世界各國現在才意識到這個中共的法律戰它其實是一個所謂的連環套"},{"start":4355.848,"end":4380.806,"text":"其實他在20年前所謂反分裂法的時候就啟動了所謂三戰法律戰 輿論戰跟心理戰而這個就是我們現在講的包括認知作戰 混合戰其中就是整套 現在又加上數位科技還有中共在國際上的勢力越來越強所以他不斷地在一些共同聲明不斷地在去做事 想要去"},{"start":4384.301,"end":4406.862,"text":"落實他所謂的一中原則那還有我們也發現其實美國真的是近來常常在打台灣牌就像剛剛我們陳靜宇委員他有提到像這次川普他就有跟媒體透露就是說在這個月底他在南韓舉行的經濟會議期間他會跟習近平見面就會特別提到會討論到台灣的議題"},{"start":4409.444,"end":4429.777,"text":"又把台灣跟媒體透露說我們會談到這個議題那其實陳永康委員今天也講得很清楚就是說其實他是一個經濟會議 經貿會議那可是他特別會強調說我會提到台灣的議題所以會不會是其實川普其實也很清楚在這個印太地區覺得台灣應該是一個關鍵"},{"start":4431.298,"end":4435.279,"text":"在美中這個競爭當中台灣絕對是一個關鍵所以他在談判經貿的這個期間頻頻把台灣給提出來所以這會不會是說台灣是被迫被動媒體詢問他他是被動嗎他是被動對"},{"start":4452.243,"end":4465.573,"text":"可是他也認為說會談到這個議題是不是沒有 他認為對方他認為他現在不想談這個問題他不想談那個問題可是在那個月底的時候他其實會跟習近平談到談論的議題因為他是假設可能習近平如果有見面會想要談這個問題因為他是眼中的蘋果"},{"start":4469.156,"end":4482.601,"text":"但是對於我想如果你詳細看那個川普總統在這個回應上面他說他並沒有想要在這個時候去談這個問題那我也特別是提出其實這也不是誰能夠去談的問題其實美國是有台灣關係法跟六項保證"},{"start":4487.947,"end":4501.635,"text":"如果你詳細去看那裡面的內容這不是任何總統他單方面可以去談的而且美國的國會也已經把台灣關係法跟六項保證已經透過共同決議現在甚至是立法的方式所以這個是跨黨派我想在美國的這個對台政策是相當"},{"start":4508.599,"end":4528.082,"text":"一致的至於他們對中的政策這之間當然因為兩岸的關係會有一些互相影響不過我認為這是兩個不同的就是說對美國來講並不是我們冷戰時候可能會涉及到美中台那種三邊關係美中有美中的政策美台也有美台的政策"},{"start":4528.322,"end":4548.98,"text":"所以部長是認為說他其實是媒體詢問所以他就被動告知因為我後來看到那個媒體還提到就是說他們有提到那個區域安全的那個時候川普就強調就是說美國在印太地區的軍事主義他的實力主義阻嚇中國對台動武這是一個對中國的警告對 因為那是因為澳大利亞總理他們因為有涉及到就是Quad"},{"start":4552.009,"end":4559.236,"text":"就是前艇的問題涉及到是不是如果中共適用在美英澳三邊的戰略跟軍事上的合作"},{"start":4573.55,"end":4599.108,"text":"四方會談嘛 你講的是這個嘛跨的嘛 他們在講跨的那個會談OK 因為時間的關係後面那問題大概是問到這裡只是說過去可能國人有很多的疑慮可能就是說可能川普上去之後呢對台灣可能是一個非常不利的一個走向可是現在看起來的話其實發展狀況目前我們還覺得說其實中美關係其實是"},{"start":4600.029,"end":4615.988,"text":"沒有想像中的這麼的不OK甚至我們還發現說最近美國常常會提到提到台灣那我也覺得說本期也認為說川普政府應該也意識到在這個印太地區如果要跟中國競爭其實台灣是一個關鍵"},{"start":4617.29,"end":4639.222,"text":"對 因為想說中國企圖改變現狀在多方面那我想台灣對美國來講是很好的一個我們理念相近以外我們有共同的利益包括在這個安全上另外就是在經濟上所以我想更大的就是說一個角度來看我們台美關係其實是其實川普2.0我們在一年"},{"start":4642.003,"end":4660.409,"text":"接近一年以來 我們應該是政策的延續性是很清楚的OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝羅美媛委員的發言部長您回座 喝杯水下面我們請馬文君委員來質詢馬委員請謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":4677.659,"end":4681.002,"text":"部長早部長我想今天我們討論也有提到APEC這個部分因為在很多朝野委員或者很多其實大家都非常關注的就是一直有這樣的傳言說部長跟吳釗燮秘書長你們不合的這樣的傳聞"},{"start":4703.2,"end":4716.332,"text":"那這一次其實外管處也都非常的關心那這一次一起要去參加IPEC這個部分部長你有什麼要力推的事情嗎或者是要破除不合的傳言"},{"start":4718.598,"end":4743.157,"text":"其實國安會一直有徐師傑現在是諮詢委員 之前副秘書長常年在對於APEC來協調我們跨部會當然外交部還有包括經濟部都是其中很重要其實過去 尤其在去年在秘魯運作得非常好 所以我們可以捍衛我意思是說你們兩位要一起去因為過去好像也沒有這樣子"},{"start":4744.658,"end":4755.727,"text":"我們所謂雙部長會議我們過去以來外交部長都是由就是看那一年的主題部長當然沒有問題我現在是說包括國安會的秘書長也一起去因為大家對你們兩位是比較關注的國安會秘書長並沒有去我也沒有去我們會再坐鎮台灣這一次你們兩位都沒有要去嗎"},{"start":4768.055,"end":4780.443,"text":"我們都沒有要去我們就在台灣作證兩個都是一樣那剛剛也有委員提到就是說像川習會兩個人會在APEC可能他們會討論到台灣的這樣的議題"},{"start":4786.147,"end":4790.39,"text":"那我們有什麼應對的準備因為剛剛我覺得我們好像太過樂觀認為川普總統他是被動的去提及可是川普總統他是非常聰明的人而且他是主導性非常強的他從來不會是被動的他都是主動的所以我想我們不用特別去幫他引導這樣子的一個方向那如果說在這一次他們有提到這樣的議題我們會怎麼應對"},{"start":4816.487,"end":4831.829,"text":"我們跟美方都有很好的管道都有持續溝通因為APEC有它的主題假設有川習會因為這個都是現在還在發展中沒到最後真的所以我們也很難做一些假設性的回答"},{"start":4832.35,"end":4836.474,"text":"這個不是假設性的回答因為這個攸關我們台灣本身非常大尤其美中兩國對我們影響最大我們實時的在對美國付出那麼多尤其現在關稅的問題我們提出非常非常多的而且犧牲非常多"},{"start":4849.224,"end":4862.195,"text":"中國大陸也是我們也是一個關注的一個重要的對象這兩個如果他們提到台灣問題的時候我們沒有假設你必須要去預判因為這樣對我們的影響會是什麼這個部分要怎麼會有什麼樣的應對的模式確實我們都有跟著不同的發展的可能的所謂劇本或想定去做一些預判跟因應比如什麼"},{"start":4876.38,"end":4899.19,"text":"比如說他有沒有見面見面談了些什麼那我們跟美方其實都很密切在溝通因為照川普的風格因為他是個談判大師他也很enjoy談判所以這個時候在這個過程可是我們也了解美中的問題要談的也很多台灣現在不是重點那可是是不是習近平會主動去提什麼"},{"start":4900.23,"end":4923.308,"text":"那當然川普他也講說他主動上沒有要去談習近平的重點可能會是台灣那如果他沒有川普如果沒有主動談尤其去主動談的時候我們要怎麼應對我問的是這個有沒有什麼具體的一個做法我們就是有沙盤推演各種的可能的想定現在可以提出一個比較具體的沙盤推演的內容嗎"},{"start":4927.151,"end":4939.084,"text":"比如什麼 讓我們先知道一下我想有些象徵性 有些是實質性的啦當然你說象徵性涉及到是不是什麼跟一中有關可是實質性涉及到軍購 這些議題那這個時候 這個因為互相要的東西跟可以給的東西是什麼我們只要把它對照起來"},{"start":4948.434,"end":4953.597,"text":"在美中之間就有可能比如說現在川普很關心當然除了這個關稅問題就是芬太尼還有其他稀土部長那個都不是跟台灣直接關切我們現在擔心的是我們面對美國的關稅的問題因為從頭到尾我們看到我們不斷的付出我們不斷的被犧牲我們從剛開始只有台積電過去到現在整個夜聯通要過去"},{"start":4972.245,"end":4976.128,"text":"包括今天來的農業部我們在農業的採購上面我們無條件的放寬我們對美的投資還有我們對於國防的這樣的一個支出其實在在都顯示跟我們原來開始預定的目標不斷不斷的在放大不斷不斷的在付出可是我們到現在還沒有談出結果那美中如果在APEC如果他們碰到"},{"start":4996.702,"end":5011.832,"text":"在那裡有討論到台灣的時候其實甚至我們有可能很多的地方會被犧牲的更多因為最重要的是我們就是壓單邊現在我們一直說美國對我們很好事實上好在哪裡可不可以說一下"},{"start":5012.83,"end":5019.355,"text":"我想台美關係是互惠的我們有互惠嗎當然有 台灣的安全 經濟還有我們在國際組織的參與台灣的安全美國沒有絕對的承諾他沒有說要幫台灣出兵我們現在看到的是我們在關稅因為我們看到剛剛你們有提到韓國你們有提到其他的國家我們看韓國好了"},{"start":5035.247,"end":5039.93,"text":"韓國在這一次APEC是在韓國舉行他們甚至跟美國都已經談妥了我想要請教一下如果以剛開始他們設定美方對韓國要求國防支出要達到GDP的3.8%對日本要求要達到3.5%對我們也是要求甚至高達5%可是我們3.32%我們明年已經高達3.32%"},{"start":5062.162,"end":5064.724,"text":"總統是說到2030年才要到達5%可是我們現在看起來不是我們都已經快要追上這個腳步了我想請教部長就你所知韓國跟日本他們有依照3.5%跟3.8%這樣的額度嗎"},{"start":5081.339,"end":5090.121,"text":"因為這次所謂的這個關稅談判他是框一個大的數字比如說5500億或3500億那因為他有讓美國有比較大的主導權韓國跟日本還包括馬來西亞包括其他東西的國家從都沒有他們現在甚至都被放寬甚至跟美國談到更優惠的條件跟原來所以我們今天為什麼不斷的會提到這個部分尤其今天特別邀請很多相關單位到現場來"},{"start":5110.146,"end":5115.189,"text":"我想要請教的是剛剛已經提到了顯然到目前為止你們沒有答案你們說有沙盤推演可是到現在提不出一個 其中的一個如果我們看到他們在舉行這個APEC他們有兩雙方有碰面的時候我們再隨時因應那時候再請教因為現在你們回答不出來可是我們要特別請教的是"},{"start":5136.997,"end":5142.847,"text":"我們在過去在跟大陸談"},{"start":5145.461,"end":5166.355,"text":"那時候都說是黑箱那現在用這麼機密的方式因為所有的國家都跟國都跟國人或者跟他們的相關的民意代表就是民意機關其實都有做詳細的報告可是我們用很高的這個機敏的態度來面對因為不斷不斷的變你覺得哪一種我們的損失比較多"},{"start":5173.707,"end":5187.412,"text":"其實我們台灣有自己的國家利益要捍衛自己的國家安全台灣的國家利益是什麼當然維持我們的主權還有我們的這個安全還有我們的發展我們不斷的犧牲跟付出我們有主權嗎我們現在看到的我先簡單 農業部一起上來好不好好 農業部"},{"start":5205.93,"end":5215.375,"text":"我想請教一下因為我們台美關稅談判是用絕對機密的案件在進行對不對那農業部請問農業部現在納入國家機密保護法嗎有沒有你必須定期查核的有多少人"},{"start":5223.294,"end":5246.568,"text":"因為你們有參與啊是 包括詳細的人數我不知道但是有非常多的人哪些人包括我們除了相關的長官以外另外就是像國際司還有包含辦理兩岸業務的相關的同仁他們都有被核定嗎是核定機敏是怎麼處理當然就是依照相關的規定來管制什麼叫相關的規定"},{"start":5247.935,"end":5271.737,"text":"因為你有參與嘛對你本身有嗎有有我本身也有做什麼樣的約束比如說我們要出國的話就要報准報准是然後呢如果在國外有任何這個接觸相關的這個人員的話回來也要通報我們被核判的機密等級就您的立場來看你被核定的等級是什麼是密機密還是極機密"},{"start":5275.222,"end":5294.355,"text":"這個我就不信 因為我就是被管制的人員你有參與嘛 可是你因為告訴我們立法院還有告訴全體國人說台美關稅談判是絕對機密的案件可是你自己到底被框的是哪一種密件的等級你自己都不知道"},{"start":5296.892,"end":5321.233,"text":"我們在上一次要求的時候 行政院第一個回答是說副院長室人員參與談判 皆有經過安全查核對不對 你有嗎我本身也有經過安全查核怎麼樣的安全查核是 據我的了解 細部我真的不知道但是我知道是送到調查局去查核有送過去 其他農業部還有什麼人"},{"start":5323.606,"end":5334.398,"text":"這個其實也不是只有農業部啦就每個單位負責國際跟兩岸我問的是農業部因為你只能代表農業部嘛其他單位他們有自己的那個我想請教一下農業部有多少人或者舉一個職位好了還有誰比如說我剛剛跟委員報告比如說我們辦國際事務的像國際事務的司長"},{"start":5342.964,"end":5364.338,"text":"他們全部都有 會後把資料提供給我們好不好因為我剛剛提到行政院那時候的回答是這麼說表示他們可能沒有經過特殊查核你們經過的是安全查核 只有一般的查核可是因為在立法院保持非常高的機密性因為從來沒有洩露過任何一個訊息"},{"start":5368.2,"end":5381.387,"text":"那第二個回答是說另一國家機密保護法於出境前應經核准之人均有依照該法規申請出境這件表示可能是只有副院長楊珍妮政委還有國安會的秘書處長張惠娟是應該批准之人"},{"start":5388.451,"end":5393.996,"text":"副院長辦公室的那些機要人員比如說像江姓或李姓的這樣的人員其實他們都大剌剌的出現在鏡頭面前他們也都出去了可是他們都沒有被列入陰莖核准之人明顯違反國家緊密保護法第26條這個部分我想部長也在這裡"},{"start":5413.291,"end":5421.896,"text":"今天如果要提供給我們資料你可以這麼隨便的時候今天那個行政院的那個經貿辦其實有來嘛副院長在過去其實他是他是反覆冒黑箱非常大力的喔今天他在面對台美關稅談判的時候是另一個樣子"},{"start":5441.38,"end":5443.945,"text":"而且美國寫的劇本我們是按照它在演美國不斷地在變我們不斷地在付出這個真的用一句話來形容叫請君入甕"},{"start":5453.666,"end":5476.337,"text":"曾立軍 曾副院長因為他在服貿的時候他曾經大力的說這是黑箱可是現在面對在服貿的時候反而我們付出的相對很少我們賣出很多 我們獲利我們得到的利多也很多那時候我們被說成是黑箱可是你今天我們看到國防支出不斷的上升我們在明年公開預算有9400億9400"},{"start":5480.999,"end":5485.063,"text":"九四五零億然後你還有特別的預算已經一千多億甚至還有人在美國放話說我們還要再編一兆多這樣子的國防支出這是安全嗎這是在掏空台灣"},{"start":5496.499,"end":5498.942,"text":"這個部分我們不斷不斷的付出可是你們卻沒有辦法對國人我們在付出這麼多剛剛我們提到了包括農業包括我們其他的投資包括我們整個台積電的產業鏈全部過去的時候我們到底可以得到什麼到現在關稅的結果還不知道"},{"start":5512.819,"end":5516.163,"text":"韓國已經要討論細節了馬來西亞也討論細節了很多東協國家他們都已經知道了而且他們是減少的我們到現在不斷增加這不是黑箱什麼叫黑箱你們當你們要做這樣的行為的時候你們告訴我們說這是一個非常機敏的案子可是誰被管制了"},{"start":5533.817,"end":5547.783,"text":"我們問起來其實大家都沒有被管制只有立法院只有我們台灣所有的人民在被框在什麼都不需要知道都不應該知道都不必知道的一個情況之下這是我們今天特別要說的因為時間的關係"},{"start":5549.744,"end":5561.807,"text":"部長 我們希望外交部把你的經驗給其他的單位行政院也是怎麼樣用機密的一個文件可以提供我們詢問或者我們要的資料農委會跟行政院我們上一次有說相關的人員包括你機要人員你是做什麼樣的查核什麼樣的等級應該提供給我們已經拖很久了所以我們在這裡慎重的要求"},{"start":5577.91,"end":5596.186,"text":"在三天之內希望把那個過程提供用密件也沒關係提供給我們如果不懂的話問外交部好不好好 我們會把經驗分享沒有 我們三天之內就要那個查核的那個人員跟他們查核的一個方式農委會跟行政院"},{"start":5600.097,"end":5606.501,"text":"警報辦有沒有問題如果是符合這個相關規定我們一定會遭因為你們都已經做了你們都已經出去談回來了你們告訴我們所有的委員說你們都不用知道因為這是機敏的你跟美國其實有簽這樣的機敏的協議所以我們都不用知道也不應該知道也不可以知道你們完全沒有報告任何的內容我們一而再再而三所有的大家在關切的全體國人在關切我們都沒有人提出來"},{"start":5629.624,"end":5655.966,"text":"報告委員就是說有關於談判代表的部分我們是有關於是仿到各國的慣例各國都是只有公部主壇人以及部長級以上的官員可是你對國因為他們沒有列機密你今天在我們國內列機密比如說像我們開機密會議的時候不是只有立法委員還是只有官員列出來在場的其實全部都有還包括我們的立法院的議事人員"},{"start":5657.307,"end":5684.872,"text":"所以這些人其實都會列在那個機密的範圍裡面今天如果你有代表我們所有國人或者不是主談的對象可是你有參與那也算所以請提供相關的一些文書資料密件就用密件一定要提供好不好我們會再依照相關規定來處理什麼叫依照相關規定依照相關規定就是你如果是密件立法院要求的你就必須按照這樣的程序交給我們啊"},{"start":5686.958,"end":5703.848,"text":"這樣有問題嗎剛剛跟委員報告就是說有兩位機要人員我已經說了你們在鏡頭上面他們都已經出現很多人都看到了那他們去參與的時候到底用什麼樣子的一個身份也請提供謝謝謝謝馬文君委員的質詢各位部會所長請回座"},{"start":5715.517,"end":5741.087,"text":"下面我們請黃仁委員來質詢謝謝主席有請我們部長還有我們行政院經貿談判的執行秘書還有經濟部的次長何次長"},{"start":5747.541,"end":5766.913,"text":"剛剛部長有提到就是我們以晶片為台灣自居那當然今天我們特別要講的是美國商務部長這個盧特尼克在日前的作訪的時候曾經提及台美晶片產能的製造那55分的構想請問這個經貿辦"},{"start":5773.857,"end":5799.447,"text":"在台美第五輪實體的磋商中美方代表有沒有向我方提出這樣的一個訴求我想金茂 你們來回答這個是 委員好有關於晶片五五分這個是美方的說法台灣從來沒有承諾也不會答應晶片五五分我們絕對是審慎一對是魯特尼克個人的想法還是美國的想法"},{"start":5801.333,"end":5811.261,"text":"美方的想法我們沒有辦法幫他詮釋上次他來這個地方受訪的時候他特別提出這個想法是他個人還是代表美國想法"},{"start":5814.132,"end":5832.524,"text":"是 報告委員我們看到的訪問是盧克尼克以商務部長的身份來受訪來說出這樣的想法那至於您剛剛的回答就是說您剛剛的問題是說這是他個人的想法還是代表美國政府整體的想法因為我不是美國政府的官員所以我沒辦法回答他特別我剛剛已經講出來了嘛盧克尼克"},{"start":5835.726,"end":5854.377,"text":"這個盧特尼克日前受訪的時候他就特別講我們希望台美晶片的產能製造希望能夠在五五波現在我跟你講了嘛是他個人還是美國的想法嘛你現在回答我就好了啊那麼簡單是 以他是商務部長的身份我們會認為這是美國的想法對嘛 這樣講就好了嘛是"},{"start":5858.937,"end":5886.96,"text":"對不對 我們五五波對我們來講的話是非常不利的對我們產能的晶片裡面來講非常不利那我們這個行政院我們的副院長 鄭麗晶副院長從未 他們也說出了從未有五五波的承諾也不會去答應這樣的一個條件因為我們絕對會神聖以對這句話是來看起來是意志堅決但是在現在的條件下說出的話"},{"start":5888.701,"end":5911.361,"text":"假設未來美國透過更強硬 現在川普不斷的逼逼強硬的做法我們如何的因應 我們會不會讓步如果未來用不同的方法來強硬對著我們的晶片然後我們必須要禮讓五五波 有沒有這個可能"},{"start":5912.274,"end":5932.017,"text":"向委員報告其實這個是跟台美雙方目前磋商中的供應鏈合作的投資的方向其實是不一樣的台美雙方其實目前還在就供應鏈合作的方案討論之中我方是在跟流台灣佈局全球的總體戰略下提出台灣模式來跟美方討論"},{"start":5932.967,"end":5953.076,"text":"好我這邊在本席在做一個確認我們請教一下我們林部長還有我們的經貿部部會的立場你們敢不敢在這個地方承諾只要是賴總統還是中華民國的總統就絕對不會答應誤分部長你回答一下"},{"start":5955.441,"end":5963.64,"text":"這個是行政院經貿談判辦公室應該整體的談判的台灣從未承諾也不會答應晶片五分"},{"start":5965.512,"end":5987.89,"text":"這個就是我們對我們也要有所的強硬的應對你看美國要求這個中國大陸他們的要求由中國大陸不應應他們的不應應合他們的一些要求我們本來我們的晶片就是以台灣自居的立場我們也要有所一個強硬"},{"start":5989.031,"end":6005.588,"text":"那另外就是把232條款美國的232條款是在根據1962年貿易擴展法第232節以國家安全為由進口商徵收關稅的調查措施"},{"start":6006.509,"end":6020.202,"text":"納入疑病挫傷那是美國要求的還是會有這樣的一個要求記了解在台美售232條款影響最重要的是鋼理的產品鋼理產品"},{"start":6022.123,"end":6046.432,"text":"所以在這個部分台美21世紀貿易倡議已經有共識了關稅配額的方式配套但是現在又要以232再重新的調整要求我們必須做出一個讓步美國才會落實關稅配額的共識如果是這樣的話你們有什麼想法"},{"start":6048.187,"end":6069.046,"text":"跟委員報告首先這個在台美21世紀貿易商業並沒有就鋼鋁的關稅配額達成協議那鋼鋁的確是鋼鋁還有半導體等等這些都是我國重要的出口產業所以在232的談判當中我們都會跟美方來做討論也會提出相關的要求那我想藉我了解是美國的要求對不對"},{"start":6071.538,"end":6078.542,"text":"美國的232調查它倒不是針對台灣它是針對它美國自己產品的需要那為什麼美國始終沒有對我們的鋼理的關稅配額協議簽署實施呢為什麼"},{"start":6086.576,"end":6098.202,"text":"這已經在之前已經有這個所謂的關稅配額的一個角度可是到現在 到現在都還沒有拿來這個對實施鋼鋁關稅配額的協議簽署的實施啊"},{"start":6101.323,"end":6105.946,"text":"我想我原指的是那個美國在實施鋼鋁關稅之後他曾經有跟某一些國家有實施這個關稅配額的措施但是在川普總統上任之後都把它廢除了都沒有任何的這個豁免然後而且還把它從25%調高到50%所以台灣出口美國的半導體以資通信的產品目前也在上"},{"start":6126.661,"end":6147.295,"text":"二三二條款的調查在調查當中列入談判中美國是否未辭為籌碼來要求我們必須做出一個讓步那如果是這樣的話我們有什麼樣要求半導體跟自動自動性產品移除在二三二條款的這個調查外"},{"start":6148.375,"end":6153.917,"text":"跟委員報告就是美國它進行232調查的這些產品產業包括藥品 鋼鋁 半導體還有很多的產品它其實是根據它美國自己的再工業化的需求還有國安的需求各國也會就它這樣的需求來跟它進行談判談判有各式各樣的狀況我國目前也是在跟美國談供應鏈合作要來爭取232的關稅的優惠待遇"},{"start":6177.02,"end":6201.46,"text":"所以你們要提出綱理的這個配額的一個協議簽署應該盡快實施對我們台灣的綱理來講是一個正面的有個交代好 請回我想請部長那請回次長 請回"},{"start":6204.481,"end":6229.958,"text":"關於美烏領袖的會晤根據金融時報的報導美國川普在烏克蘭的澤倫斯基在10月17號的時候在白宮會晤結果川普不但對澤倫斯基的一個強硬的手段並要求烏克蘭接受俄羅斯的一個統戰中戰的條件"},{"start":6230.658,"end":6258.744,"text":"不只稱俄烏戰爭是特別行動而非戰爭還要哲倫斯基要讓基普割讓給這個整個的頓巴斯所以部長看到這個消息你會不會覺得有一點不安的感覺因為俄烏戰爭發生後我們一直堅定認為這是一場民主自由對抗極淺侵略的戰爭並且台灣美國歐洲印度烏克蘭等"},{"start":6260.283,"end":6278.729,"text":"國家以形成民主同盟,會共同對抗俄國、中國大陸或北韓等極淺的集團。只要遇到關於烏克蘭的事務,我們一定會說,攜手民主同盟理念,相信國家對抗危險主義擴張。"},{"start":6280.109,"end":6297.314,"text":"但是你認為美國如今對烏克蘭的態度會不會造成民主同盟的逐步崩潰對於美國一起攜手對抗危險主義的國家而言是一種信心或者是一個信仰的打擊所以部長"},{"start":6298.354,"end":6323.448,"text":"我們未來對台灣也會不會像這樣烏克蘭一樣我們民主同盟之後那如果一旦在利益之上受到了美國不利益利益之上的話是不是就讓他去跟俄羅斯一妥協台灣未來我們要如何自處部長你想一下你的想法好不好"},{"start":6323.988,"end":6351.423,"text":"是 跟委員報告我想二五戰爭當然是一件不幸的事情那也很值得我們學習的不管正面的經驗或是負面的經驗那我想首先戰爭是很殘酷的那烏克蘭人他自己捍衛自己國家的這個主權還有領土但是呢這個國際政治有時候它很現實的一面所以這一個變成說現在陷入一個僵局嘛"},{"start":6353.445,"end":6367.186,"text":"包括川普總統還有各方面想促成能夠這個停火或者是和談可是這些方案不同的內容我想都會被討論到但最後會怎麼樣"},{"start":6368.707,"end":6390.992,"text":"這也取決於俄烏各種主客觀的因素對台灣來講我們要學習到的就是說我們一定要增加自我防衛的決心跟能力另外外交很重要因為這個其實戰爭發動之後怎麼去解決啊就是涉及到很多利害關係的特別是國際的大國所以這方面我們外交也要做好那因為什麼"},{"start":6391.972,"end":6408.527,"text":"我們必須要知道美國是以利益之上台灣不能這樣被犧牲掉所以本席還是要提醒我們部長外交部從蔡政府開始我國的外交方針非常的偏重於所謂的"},{"start":6409.347,"end":6427.007,"text":"民主同盟這種價值外交的框架包含今天報導中也在道說明外交部秉持賴總統的指導方針及其推動價值外交的理念但在應用相近的理念開拓外交的版圖本身沒有什麼問題"},{"start":6428.248,"end":6455.353,"text":"可是在國際政治的一個畢竟它還是一個以利益掛帥以利益掛帥所以我們永遠沒有敵人也永遠沒有朋友那大國出賣這個出賣這個私利的這個私欺利益的一個價值的同盟的國家案例在歷史上是比比皆是所以本席要特別提醒部長"},{"start":6456.972,"end":6479.527,"text":"價值外交當然固然重要 可是價值外交不能被利用我們國家的利益 好不好確實 確實和平靠實力 Peace to strength我們自己一定要壯大起來然後也做好不管是外交上面的各種可能性能夠避免我想兩岸之間變成這個只是"},{"start":6480.627,"end":6493.878,"text":"中國跟台灣的問題這個是一個國際上我們怎麼樣去善用我們的外交上面的合縱聯合但是我們本身對於國家的安全我們台灣一定要展現我們的決心跟實力 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":6513.04,"end":6515.909,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":6524.278,"end":6543.534,"text":"部長早我今天好幾題要問你首先我們當然就先從這個高市早苗開始好了他昨天已經當選了日本第104屆的首相那麼張圖我們就可以看得出來其實他在擔任首相之前拜訪台灣那麼不只是跟您見過面跟賴總統也見過面這個我想台日友好"},{"start":6547.977,"end":6569.116,"text":"標題特別講說邁入新篇章我想這個絕對無庸置疑喔只是對於這個高四找苗上任之後那麼如何真正的來深化台日之間的友誼而且能夠更具體的包括爭取台灣能夠加入CPTPP這個部分有沒有機會更進一步喔部長你有沒有什麼樣的看法因為"},{"start":6569.736,"end":6575.219,"text":"我想在高四找苗之前月初當選我們的這個當選日本自民黨的這個總裁的時候其實賴清德總統就有發文而他在賴清德總統的發文底下呢也特別留言了說對日本而言台灣是共享經濟價值的而且擁有緊密關係與人際往來極為重要的夥伴"},{"start":6593.05,"end":6621.016,"text":"珍貴的朋友那麼期待台日之間的合作與交流能夠更加深化在這個部分你看他都直接會在賴總統的祝賀上面去留言那就表示說這個部分是不怕大家看啦那麼也更強調了他挺台就是遵循過去安倍晉三的這種台灣有事就是日本有事的走向那麼您怎麼來評估目前接下來的台日之間的關係"},{"start":6623.608,"end":6642.39,"text":"我們對於高市早苗擔任日本的首相我們是除了恭賀以外我們也是當然有所期待那當然這個分很多的層次來看當然個人的友好關係那是一個可是我覺得日本他的國家利益出發"},{"start":6644.212,"end":6664.349,"text":"這個跟台灣的國家利益去找到最大的交集這個就是我們外交的工作那你如果看到高市早苗這個首相其實他很清楚的政策主張不管是從安倍晉三時代他就參與其間所印太戰略另外在於對於台灣的關係上比如他的認為這些"},{"start":6667.632,"end":6692.378,"text":"科技產業他也具體都可以不看稿講的從半導體人工智慧然後到量子到這個其他的太空各方面的合作那其中有一個很重要是經濟安全所以經濟安全就涉及到CPTPP除了台日應該加強經濟的整合來支持我們的這個民主同盟以外那我們對"},{"start":6693.698,"end":6706.648,"text":"最近應該說最優先也最重要的就是我們期待高市早苗新的政府能夠支持跟協助"},{"start":6707.964,"end":6732.235,"text":"台灣加入CPTPP因為今年這個主辦國是這個輪席主席國是澳大利亞但是日本是倡議國當時就是安倍晉三前首相倡議那所以來實現這個這個日本的基本上就是說扮演一個主導角色沒有美國因為以前是TPP但是CPTPP是由日本主導那這12國裡面"},{"start":6734.156,"end":6763.562,"text":"日本也是我想是經濟這個不管是GDP或者是貿易是最大最重要的國家所以我們在這一點上希望作為短期台日之間努力的一個目標好 那麼這個部分當然我們就希望因為剛好輪值國也是對我們非常友善的澳洲而目前當然換上了這個高市政府我們也期待就是以把這個當作台灣在推動台日友好當中的一個"},{"start":6764.042,"end":6775.171,"text":"目標跟進程不過在這個部分當然喔也因為現在日本的旅遊以及外國人越來越多所以日本是加嚴了對外國人的政策尤其是他們特別成立了一個監督外國人在日本的這樣的一個新事務局喔叫做與外國人有序共生社會推進企那麼尤其是現在在蔡政黨所推動的日本優先主義喔外國人這個問題當然就引發了焦點"},{"start":6793.124,"end":6817.09,"text":"雖然說我相信啦對日本人來講中國人跟台灣人不一樣他們是非常有感但是有一些新的政策跟措施的部分會不會對台灣的民眾造成困擾在這個部分比如包括像日本針對他們10月1號開始對外國人來加嚴護照的換發那麼其實台灣跟日本之間是有互惠的就是相互的證照的承認所以其實台灣的護照"},{"start":6819.871,"end":6836.001,"text":"台灣的駕照只要加上日文的譯本去做申請就可以換得日本的駕照這個其實我們不受影響但是在這個部分有沒有一定的宣傳因為我在網路上看到有一些人開始引起恐慌喔可是其實根本跟台灣沒有關係再來是日本政府也加強跟提高了就是對於外國人對日本境內的一些投資從過去的500萬"},{"start":6843.806,"end":6866.174,"text":"日元現在提升到了三千萬日元等於增加到了六倍這些措施喔對於台灣來說其實影響不大但是都會造成一定的恐慌那麼尤其是我特別提起駕照這個問題有沒有一些現在關注到的變成是台灣的駕照被盜用或濫用等等外交部有沒有做好一些宣傳跟準備"},{"start":6867.747,"end":6892.9,"text":"謝謝委員 因為在10月1號的時候實施駕照換新的新制度但是我們向日本台灣交流協會台北事務所有交涉也確認他們有回覆說明這個新規定並不影響現有台日駕照互惠的措施此台灣駕照在日本短期開車的時候所需的相關資料跟作業還是按照現行的規定辦理我們會來加強宣傳"},{"start":6894.281,"end":6915.546,"text":"好 但是就是包括你看我截的這個截圖就是因為現在外國人但是台灣除外因為台灣跟日本之間有駕照的所謂的這樣的一個互相認證的這樣一個措施所以台灣人的駕照變得非常的好用那就出現了中國人來假冒"},{"start":6916.226,"end":6934.603,"text":"台灣的駕照然後造勢之後或者是在被逮到之後這個部分我也希望外交部能夠留意然後也對國人做宣傳好不好對所以他們日本會執法方面我想最重要是宣導讓台灣不要我們的駕照很珍貴的不要"},{"start":6935.103,"end":6950.63,"text":"不管是因著什麼因素啦有時候遺失啦或是是不是有一些什麼私下的這個有人去運用了我們一定要減少或阻止發生這種情形台灣駕照被盜用或者是可能是被犯罪集團怎麼樣去利用"},{"start":6950.95,"end":6968.584,"text":"好另外一個本席要關注的東西就是回到今天的主題喔就是我們在講有關於現在面臨跟美國進行的關稅談判的部分那麼現在這個事件會不會影響到關稅談判那就是在9月24號的時候美國的"},{"start":6972.86,"end":6996.977,"text":"海關紀邊境保護局也就是CBC對於台灣可以算是過去我們一直認為是台灣之光的這個捷安特也就是巨大機械發出了假扣押令那麼這個暫時的扣押令是說因為我們在人權跟勞工的部分違反了他們的措施那我們都知道其實過去我們有一些漁工的問題"},{"start":6997.918,"end":7018.758,"text":"被幾次這種所謂國際組織來做提醒甚至於發出警訊甚至於有過去我現在列出來的三件有關於漁工的問題喔那麼我們現在就要來看專家都在提醒是說這個會不會是一個未來談判的時候變成是一個變數跟因素所以說"},{"start":7019.699,"end":7042.381,"text":"不只是傳產 連科技業的勞權問題可能也會變成是跟美國在進行關稅談判當中的一個重要的因素我不知道外交部怎麼來看這個事件而且我知道9月30號這個巨大機械其實是有發函請勞動部 經濟部跟外交部給予協助那目前這個案子的溝通狀況如何"},{"start":7043.865,"end":7046.466,"text":"報告委員我們在第一時間事實上從美出那邊得知他們這個CBT會針對捷安特有所謂戰扣令我們就開始協助捷安特就巨大機械他們的處理他們也做了一些說明因為這個最主要是有人檢舉然後有一些報導"},{"start":7067.615,"end":7086.289,"text":"這涉及到移工大概有兩個問題他們也都會改善雖然他們其實也是蠻好的一個企業一個就是所謂的移工引入的費用的問題另外一個就是所謂住宿環境的問題他們都現在用最高標準就是避免任何爭議"},{"start":7087.37,"end":7100.56,"text":"在這方面我想這展現他公司的誠意因為現在要去交涉是美國CPT什麼時候可以把它解除因為美國現在政府是關閉中台灣的交涉單位會是外交部還是經濟部還是勞動部還是談判部"},{"start":7104.178,"end":7130.551,"text":"我想產業方面當然是經濟部勞動部當然也有在協助不過站在我們外交部就是整體的所以這個部分我想業者已經提出說明而且有改善的具體的回應在美國的交涉我們外交部在協助跟CPT這邊可以最快的時間讓他們可以去說明然後可以把它解除掉這個目前為止我想還是一個單一事件"},{"start":7130.831,"end":7133.535,"text":"所以你認為這個不會影響到接下來後續的談判也不會變成是說勞工議題也變成是接下來在經濟談判上面被拿出來因為有這些勞權的談判的導權的團體又或者是專家認為說這個就是有人檢舉"},{"start":7148.174,"end":7158.779,"text":"然後檢舉之後在還沒有確認這個狀況底下就已經先執行了戰扣令那麼會不會就是只是有嫌疑但就是以戰扣令然後來做擴大在未來談判的時候變成是勞權問題也被加入 您怎麼看"},{"start":7165.217,"end":7179.913,"text":"其實美方一直有這方面的給我們的這個要求或壓力啦我們也盡量就是在符合國際的包括這些相關的人權公約等等不過就個案來講這個案子如果詳細去了解我想只要讓這個"},{"start":7182.716,"end":7192.902,"text":"巨大他們有機會去說明我想應該美方會覺得他們做了很多努力而且是一個很好的企業也不要因為這個單一事件去擴及到其他造成一些恐慌至於說勞權的部分我想這個案子也給我們我想有一些提醒因為現在就是國際人權團體對這些是很關注的"},{"start":7211.855,"end":7212.935,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢主席好 麻煩請外交部長請部長"},{"start":7248.63,"end":7275.708,"text":"部長好跟部長請教一下因為之前我們現在跟美國關稅政府講說是暫時性關稅但是從8月到現在也暫時很長一段時間了大概暫時了好幾個月了請問大概要暫時多久您的預估因為現在寫總結報告中這個總結報告完我想應該就可以宣布總結報告大概要寫多久應該已經草案都有了吧草案都有所以一個禮拜"},{"start":7276.787,"end":7290.485,"text":"還是兩個禮拜因為這涉及到台美 也是涉及到美國他們把他就是最後的階段怎麼樣再進一步來確定所以大概兩個禮拜"},{"start":7292.05,"end":7321.21,"text":"我剛剛講這是因為最近我想包括APEC或者是各種的這個國際的會議但是美台之間都一直有在溝通我知道有在溝通我們也沒有否認說政府有溝通只是因為暫時暫時大家會以為很短但是因為暫時現在暫時很長了所以大家會想要知道到底還要暫時多久我當然知道有溝通你們絕對不會在家裡睡覺一定就是很努力在溝通可是總是要讓大家知道"},{"start":7322.012,"end":7324.16,"text":"還要暫時多久嘛因為現在暫時關稅我們是20%加N嘛"},{"start":7326.806,"end":7342.973,"text":"那主要出口的競爭國日本 韓國他們是15不用加所以我們比他高但是政府那時候說放心我們一定會談到至少不要疊加然後甚至於20可以降到15所以現在在談我現在只是在問說還要暫時多久會暫時到年底嗎我問委員報告因為談判是一個非常策略性的互動是那我們做好準備有各種的方案但是其實"},{"start":7357.918,"end":7381.116,"text":"這個時間也是談判策略的一部分有些東西也擠不得怎麼樣去發揮最大的談判效果我們其實問這個不是想要破壞你們的談判策略而是國人想要知道因為有些產業他要思考說他要怎麼因應比如說你如果要暫時半年暫時一年跟暫時兩個月他因應方式就不一樣"},{"start":7382.117,"end":7404.598,"text":"像我們有一些企業是不是還沒有受到影響可是有些企業就已經受到影響我們的無薪假是一直增加10月1號的時候已經8000多而且那個無薪假也延燒到足科了現在也有足科有企業是實施無薪假所以我一直認為說其實我們政府應該可以在可以介入的範圍之內盡量讓國人知道現在談判的狀況"},{"start":7405.179,"end":7431.794,"text":"不然大家比較有因應我知道部長可能今天也不能說所以你就沒有給個明確的答案但是我們是希望不要暫時太久現在看起來像南韓就有宣布我看彭博社報導是說南韓講說他們跟美國的談判已經有實質性的進展而且在很多關鍵性的問題他們其實是有得到一些美國有些讓步其中"},{"start":7432.774,"end":7453.413,"text":"有一個是說因為川普在之前和韓國日本包括台灣在內的企業代表都有求婿那南韓的代表包括像三星LG還有日本的一些企業台灣的也有不知道部長你知道這事嗎我知道有這件事那台灣的企業代表是誰"},{"start":7454.738,"end":7473.637,"text":"我不方便戴維發言嘛他們邀請誰或誰去啊或者這之間的你知道有台灣的代表但是不能講就對了是不是但是確定是有台灣因為他也沒有公開啊對沒有那是彭博的報導嘛外媒的報導嘛那所以部長是證實有這件事情的啊沒有沒有我是說有求聚這件事情但是誰參加"},{"start":7475.239,"end":7479.083,"text":"我也不是參加者你知道有求續啦你知道有求續有啊 這個電視上都有看到電視上有看到然後他說有台灣的代表嘛那你不方便證實還是你不知道台灣有誰去"},{"start":7490.39,"end":7513.416,"text":"我都有一些掌握但是我這裡我的角色不適合不適合講那實際上這個求續對南韓來說他們馬上就發布了他就說他們已經有實質性的進展所以人家也沒有在像你那麼緊張人家就是跟韓國人講說我沒有實質性的進展因為之前南韓關稅在談的時候也有卡住那美國要求他們要投資"},{"start":7514.712,"end":7531.03,"text":"3000多億美金他們不願意所以他們現在一有進展就跟國人講韓國是相對公開透明的國家我們稍微保守然後他們講說韓國現在已經建了因為他們同時建了盧特尼克跟貝森特我們這邊的談判對口是誰這可以講嗎"},{"start":7533.553,"end":7547.233,"text":"我想包括USTR的Clear還有包括財政部長Benson還有包括商務部長Lotnik這三位都有關都有關所以我們跟韓國見到的"},{"start":7549.936,"end":7572.727,"text":"對象是差不多的因為我現在是你都不講所以我就用南韓來類比人家有好的結果我們應該快有好的結果委員確實掌握非常那請教一下現在有一個消息是說我們現在要用全面開放美租還有美國車進口零關稅來換取不疊加只有這件事嗎這是世紀談判的內容有行政院經貿談判辦公室在負責那是不是請經貿談判辦公室來 請"},{"start":7578.911,"end":7601.861,"text":"是 像委員報告就是說有關於這個談判的這個承諾的內容我們都是秉持著這個四大原則國家利益沒有 不要再講原則了啦我在問說有沒有要全面開放美豬啦現在這個都在談判的過程當中所以我們是秉持四大利益在跟四大利益的話那開放美豬就是四大原則在跟美國一起談判好 那你覺得開放美豬有沒有影響到我們的食安"},{"start":7606.08,"end":7626.839,"text":"有關於這個問題可能比較開放美豬有沒有影響食安你們沒評估我們都是在這個有沒有影響開放美豬以前國民黨開放美牛的時候民進黨是上街頭的現在要開放美豬有沒有影響食安你如果連這個答案都答不出來你怎麼談判你有沒有影響食安有還是沒有"},{"start":7628.021,"end":7645.098,"text":"跟委員報告在四大原則的評估的時候我們都是請相關部會一起來評估的不是 你們已經在談了沒有辦法這樣很單純的講有或沒有不是 你今天一定是說美豬有影響食安有或沒有那在沒有的情況之下我們去用這個條件去談嘛"},{"start":7646.599,"end":7670.392,"text":"有影響實案因為行政院已經揭示了就是說實案很重要所以全面開放美豬就沒有這個選項所以我現在問你說這個有沒有影響實案嘛你覺得沒有那我們就放心了啊你就可能會去談嘛你如果說有影響實案我們就放心嘛就這麼簡單嘛這個有什麼好不能講的只是說你現在打的模擬兩可大家就知道說這可能就有啦那沒關係那美國車進口零刊稅這個有沒有"},{"start":7675.314,"end":7701.579,"text":"有關於這個談判的細節現在目前因為還在進行當中等到有談判結果的時候其實大家其實都有建議過因為主席站起來其實大家都有建議過你在談判過程你適當的揭露國內的輿論或者是在黨聲音也可以成為政府對外談判的籌碼這個對台灣談判是有利的不是說全部都不講才是有利其實適當揭露才是有利的"},{"start":7702.139,"end":7724.453,"text":"那你現在最後揭露如果說全面開放美豬或者是什麼這些條件都被大家發現真的是這樣其實我覺得政府會受到壓力是更大啦好 謝謝好 謝謝等一下陳冠廷委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好 我們請部長"},{"start":7738.528,"end":7752.44,"text":"請部長好部長好部長我從書面報告裡面有指出說鄭麗君副院長她跟經貿談判辦公室的總談判代表9月底那已經跟商務部有進行了五輪的這個實體的磋商"},{"start":7753.681,"end":7775.395,"text":"那現在主要就是232條款跟這個供應鏈合作的部分持續在協商中那我是希望說再次提醒就是台美的經貿關係它不要成為產業間的零和的競逐因為我們當然是要替半導體跟高科技的產業來爭取我們最大利益但是也不可以犧牲農業跟這些弱勢的產業"},{"start":7776.596,"end":7802.33,"text":"我是希望說部長能夠在未來的你的這個總和外交裡面能不能夠包含以強帶弱的概念就是說我們很多優勢產業像是半導體的產業高科技產業這些產業鏈我也看到這個部長很積極的出訪的時候都帶著這些產業鏈去參與甚至是把一些經貿的這些工作也融合到外交的工作裡面但是這個部分有一點事情就是說"},{"start":7803.351,"end":7825.61,"text":"在這個傳統的產業上在農業上面我們看今年整體的經濟是往上走可是傳產農業它沒有跟著一起走那所以說我們與其一個產業走一百步不如每一個產業都往前走一步所以這部分不知道部長有什麼樣的這個設計的藍圖對外交部的看法他的視野怎麼樣把我們以強帶弱想請教一下部長"},{"start":7827.712,"end":7849.282,"text":"報告委員陳玲玲講就是其實台美的這一次的關稅經貿談判可以用總和外交來做一個大戰略所以我們如果從那關稅好像就是零和可是如果涉及到投資那到底什麼產業是我們的優勢我們可以擴展"},{"start":7850.424,"end":7860.55,"text":"我們的供應鏈而不是說去移轉那另外就是美國他畢竟是最終端的消費市場以外他有很好的科技"},{"start":7861.59,"end":7883.196,"text":"人才跟資金所以我們怎麼樣為我所用這個也是打造所謂經濟日不落國除了價值外交以外當然是很重要理念相近可是經濟還有這些利益的一致這個就是台灣安全最大的保障也因此我們在談的時候我們的戰略目標是什麼不是陷入被動"},{"start":7884.916,"end":7901.681,"text":"好像他要一塊我們給五毛而是說更主動的去規劃那這裡面陳如玲提到了232條款他當然是基於國安然後企圖讓美國在工業化以外他也可以就是避免"},{"start":7902.802,"end":7919.775,"text":"在供應鏈上可能就是受制於了所以這個時候我們跟他可以扮演一個合作甚至合資的角色那因此從半導體產業我覺得從供應鏈的合作去看怎麼樣對台灣有利另外因為半導體產業又帶動最近這個人工智慧"},{"start":7920.655,"end":7942.492,"text":"包括BOOST是AI CHIPS AI SERVER AI DATA CENTERAI ROBOTICS AI FACTORY這一個是台灣的強項比如以伺服器來講它是做我們AI計算必備的而台灣有最先進的技術跟我們量產的能力所以這個時候我們把美國當作一個市場也好"},{"start":7943.192,"end":7950.255,"text":"當作我們一個就是說避免我們因為出口而造成的貿易的逆差而可能會影響他們對我們的這些要求提高關稅"},{"start":7958.351,"end":7981.661,"text":"我們這個佈局到底是怎樣對台灣最有利我們應該有一個戰略的目標所以誠如委員提到的那我們也跟美國談你要做到這些那你必須讓台灣的企業能夠服務他們比如說所謂的科學園區或者所謂智慧科技園區那這個也不是說就能夠移過去因為涉及到法令"},{"start":7982.557,"end":8005.544,"text":"土地 水電還有非常多的行政服務包括單一窗口我想委員很清楚所以我們是有know-how的這個know-how是值錢的我們可以跟他一起參與來投資嘛投資科學園區的開發這個也就是台美聯合艦隊其實我五月已經率電電工會還有八大工協會到了德州要打造所謂台灣Tower"},{"start":8006.331,"end":8031.845,"text":"作為Team of Teams也就是在德州從我們現在電電工會的所謂電子七哥每一個都增加投資而且未來的三年幾乎是指數性的成長為什麼 供不應求因為比如說Stargate 5000億美金它就需要我們的AI Server而且我們還不是試試賣AI Server或AI Chips AI Data Center我們整個未來的營運我們如果能夠提供這個服務"},{"start":8034.505,"end":8045.971,"text":"那我們的關係甚至我們怎麼樣去變成一個join venture合資的關係這才是把台灣跟美國的利益能夠綁在一起而且這個是對美國來講"},{"start":8053.393,"end":8064.466,"text":"美國優先 但台灣也優先我覺得是國家戰略或總和外交是我自己是這半年多來雖然我不是在談判的第一線但是我都跟談判團隊密切的聯繫"},{"start":8067.248,"end":8092.137,"text":"謝謝部長 你的這個外交的這個戰略報告是很完整我大概可以理解到說就是除了因應其實美國政府的這個變化那我們也做好我們相對的這一些政策那過去就如同你剛剛提到的 我們是講價值但是現在價值之外我們還要加值 加值的意思就是要讓我們的利害是一致的"},{"start":8092.717,"end":8111.386,"text":"所以剛才你提到的說包含Server還有一些其他的這些高科技的產品我相信這些都是有注意的不過我也有注意到就是不管是在國內外很多我們跟這個外交部也好或者是國防部也好他們的相關的這些智庫他們主要辦的論壇"},{"start":8112.606,"end":8137.97,"text":"都還是直接跟這一個半導體相關那我覺得這很好這是我國的充滿這個最國際的產業鏈裡面很重要的一環但是我們台灣除了這一些高科技產業還有傳統產業高度精密的機械園區這些機械的這些工業也是傳產的一些種性所以如果未來我們可以在這些智庫裡面也提到說除了這一個半導體是不可或缺之外"},{"start":8138.69,"end":8167.75,"text":"我们的加工我们的这些传产它同时也是在这个CP值也是非常高的那刚才提到的合资的这个部分那我们当然也是要鼓励美国也来台湾因为当然我们都知道说现在美方就是一直希望说我们把我们的这些相关的产业来移到美国去但是其实我们也必须要说服美国就是说在这一个台湾台湾国内我们的国内实际上是有很多的产业它是CP值是高的它可以用更低的这一个"},{"start":8169.91,"end":8195.538,"text":"這個消耗來去達到更高的產值我想這部分儘管說我們當然知道現在的美國政府它的這個屬性可能跟過去的這個拜登政府不太一樣但我們還是要持續嘗試去努力所以部長想請教一下因為美方新版的這個國防戰略報告據傳還沒有確定它是說本土跟西半球可能會成為首要要應對的層級"},{"start":8197.259,"end":8213.372,"text":"那這個部分我還是希望說部長在這樣的戰略重心他們萬一這樣調整的話那我們的跟美方之間的協調那就很重要了我覺得我們要強調一個根本就是說我們的安全他是不只他是依賴不只依賴一方的善意"},{"start":8213.752,"end":8232.305,"text":"所以我們剛才講到總和外交裡面就是除了美國之外我們對歐洲對任何在印太有利害關係的國家我們都要加強對他們的這些之間的這些關聯性還有加強跟這些印太國家在印太有利害的不見得是身處在印太的國家比方說法國他雖然是在歐洲但是他其實在"},{"start":8233.825,"end":8244.47,"text":"太平洋上都甚至有它的屬地在所以它也是印太國家所以這個部分我是想要請教一下部長你的戰略在針對萬一他們的重心做調整之外我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":8245.895,"end":8264.753,"text":"報告委員其實經過這快一年來的整個發展我們已經比較清楚川普政府他的一個不管是安全或者是國防的戰略因為他現在有兩個最重要的報告我們都密切注意一個是美國的這個整個國家安全的戰略另外一個是國防"},{"start":8266.815,"end":8281.453,"text":"方面的戰略也陸續有透露一些方向以您提到的美國國防戰略的報告來講我想印太還是最重要台灣是一個不可或缺的夥伴這個時候怎麼樣來加強因為中國的威權擴張要"},{"start":8283.163,"end":8294.533,"text":"跨過第一島鏈去太平洋要去抗衡美國所以我們的角色已經不是說兩岸關係我們是相看在整個印太第一島鏈所以從雙邊到小多邊所謂網格狀的安全的架構小多邊"},{"start":8299.977,"end":8314.486,"text":"比如說我們當然除了跟美國有台灣關係法我們跟周邊國家不管日本菲律賓澳紐這個都在交織成各種我們想安全的韌性是不能太脆弱我們都只靠跟電網一樣分散式電網跟電網一樣分散式電網一個latest work就是一個比較"},{"start":8321.01,"end":8343.963,"text":"交疊在一起的這種所謂的小多邊關係比如說那美國也在建構美日韓 美日飛甚至就是說包括澳紐也都進來那台灣是不可或缺因為第一島鏈彼此相關只要中共飛機一起飛或者是說環台的時候那你可以想它的軍艦潛艇出入"},{"start":8347.438,"end":8375.834,"text":"第一島鏈就是宮古海峽跟巴士海峽嘛那一個在北邊日本一個在南邊菲律賓所以為什麼他們那麼重視這一個台海安全而且不能夠讓台海變成內海化都是基於他們國家利益所以我們要很了解美國的國家利益是什麼他的印太戰略為什麼他要把前沿部署能夠往前沿到關島包括對於日韓非這種串聯的各種演習很多那台灣也是不可或缺的一部分"},{"start":8376.594,"end":8396.629,"text":"謝謝部長部長我覺得今天你講的這個重點我最後做個總結就是小多邊這個概念我認為這是一個我們未來可以突破的這是操之在我們的那有些沒有辦法操之在我們自己的部分我們就盡量去影響但是操之在我們的小多邊這個部分我認為外交部跟我們的經濟部都可以一起來協助謝謝我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":8748.581,"end":8749.902,"text":"請大家就座現在開始繼續開會 接下來請許巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8778.883,"end":8780.206,"text":"謝謝主席 我們先請林佳龍部長請部長"},{"start":8787.689,"end":8808.864,"text":"部長好我想我們先從輕鬆一點的內容開始討論那就是有媒體報導您要寫新書了也先恭喜外交部要寫新書不是嗎但是就有人在講說這個外交部有些人說要寫書然後內部公務員有一些意見等等的"},{"start":8809.704,"end":8825.25,"text":"你們也已經回應了非常的快速就講說是要做一些政策討論包含是總和外交等等的一些議題要做的書籍可不可以部長先幫我們介紹一下這個書的我想先問一下書名叫什麼"},{"start":8827.183,"end":8852.823,"text":"是這樣就像我跟委員提到的業務報告這是我針對總和外交怎麼去推動我先好奇就是說它書名叫做什麼因為它不是什麼一本書啦它就是我們對政策的方向然後大家凝聚共識那也有個名字吧就是會是有一個報告一個報告那它不是會做成一個而且我跟委員報告那個"},{"start":8855.663,"end":8861.548,"text":"我的想法啦那個沒有什麼去動用什麼這個本來就是我們業務單位根據我的施政理念尤其是業務報告要落實到各單位去推動要配套嘛如果這個方面我想對於我們有共同的"},{"start":8874.317,"end":8894.59,"text":"這個外交的目標跟我們的路徑圖很重要我沒有要批評你的意思我只是很好奇說這個書的這個好 你叫政策白皮書也好就是怎麼樣也好他的這個名稱叫什麼我跟委員報告 比如我之前我自己這是跟這個沒有關係像我有這個出版一本叫經濟日不落國對就是這個"},{"start":8897.532,"end":8919.335,"text":"有您在那個交通部長的任內交通部台灣這個新彥行國際聯合艦隊就是現在在推動的我們的經濟外交的來源嘛那我知道啦這個像交通部的時候您也有一本這樣子的這個冊子嘛那我覺得都沒有關係因為呢有政策讓更多人知道是好事那我只是想要好奇問一下說那你看"},{"start":8919.895,"end":8932.922,"text":"之前在交通部的時候您的這個我們就講好政策書好了叫做交通彩繪家林佳龍與人本交通的創新治理那呢我想要問一下現在我們在規劃的這個手冊那標題叫什麼"},{"start":8937.464,"end":8955.311,"text":"這是不一樣的不過這個我跟委員講你講的這個是我自己我都自己出錢在就是說形成我自己的一些政策論述因為也要跟社會溝通這是民主的時代當然 我沒有反對所以我在當交通部長你也知道包括Uber問題的解決包括現在的T-Pass"},{"start":8955.911,"end":8963.994,"text":"我知道了 包括無人機智慧電動車還有這些所有的很多是來自於我們帶一個政策我沒有反對我只是問一下你們想好這個名稱了沒有啊就標題我想問一下這個冊子的標題是什麼問題很簡單還沒有還沒想好而且這個跟委員講的這並不是說去出版一本書那你要什麼時候出版也不是用外交部的預算"},{"start":8976.958,"end":8987.682,"text":"是把兄弟我自己長年來推動總和外交的一些施政理念跟同仁來共同形成一個配套的政策這次的施政理念的手冊好了我這樣講手冊是由您自己個人出資啊一向如此我從來我都不用公家的預算那撰寫書籍的話有請外交部的同仁協助嗎"},{"start":9002.677,"end":9016.816,"text":"沒有 就是資料的整理根據我要的資料的整理他們不需要再做配套譬如說我們的歐洲政策我跟委員報告像我們最近有沒有我們有一個從科技到文化我們最近在推動歐洲為什麼會有突破"},{"start":9017.737,"end":9040.432,"text":"那以前就是我們30個外館 但是就各自為政你不要跟我說這麼多 到時候您出版了我會閱讀這個大作就知道了好不好我會跟您分享 如果有這個出版的話要不然我先送幾本我以前出版的給參考一下我看過我看過我一向是您的書籍的粉絲我都看過所以我才好奇說這個標題 標題還沒有訂那內容大概有那預計什麼時候要出版呢"},{"start":9048.397,"end":9069.009,"text":"有預計的時辰嗎我們就是一個要形成政策的一個共識跟論述的一個工作啦其實大家都要一起做這個工作才有共同的我們講說戰略圖像跟路徑圖你預計有什麼時候要把這個東西做出來我這樣講你可不可以不要能夠接受隨時都可以做出來因為都在我的我們在進行中的政策啊"},{"start":9069.349,"end":9089.473,"text":"OK好可是你總會有個時程吧那我如果問說那你明天就要做出來那你今天都還沒有想好標題怎麼可能呢那不叫隨時啊隨時就是我現在問你你就會跟我說答案如果應該用什麼方式會比較適合我都是開放式的我只是好奇而已那太好了知道委員的支持啊對我是開放式的更有這個動力對對我好奇名稱而已好那我們請這個我們經貿談判辦公室上來好不好好"},{"start":9099.754,"end":9123.812,"text":"部長您也留步我不確定會不會有您的這個沒關係您留步好這個我今天要問的是關於我們副總統蕭美琴日前接受加拿大的廣播公司專訪的時候提到川普政府在美國的投資不只有台積電還包含整個台積電的生態系請問這個部分我們在行政院的談判辦公室清不清楚"},{"start":9125.602,"end":9140.712,"text":"我們都有看到相關的報導都有都有follow我不要問的是報導我是在說過程當中你們清不清楚就是我們在談判的時候呢有談到包含是台積電的生態系都納入在台美的這個關稅談判當中"},{"start":9143.757,"end":9171.8,"text":"是知道清楚你的是是什麼意思向委員報告就是說有關於這件事情的說明就是說這個是因為台灣的科學園區的模式在全球獨有加上產業園區工業區等所以其他國家難以複製這樣的園區規劃所以我國是願意與美國透過政府與政府的合作來創造有利產業聚落形成的環境這樣可以降低我國企業單打獨鬥的高成本跟風險"},{"start":9173.181,"end":9177.205,"text":"因此我們提議導入過去產業記錄以及科學園區的經驗我們會以國家跟產業利益來跟美國談判所以這個具體的做法是什麼因為你講到園區具體的做法是什麼是說在台灣的這些園區由美國這裡來投資還是說我們要去美國投資園區"},{"start":9195.401,"end":9217.894,"text":"跟委員報告這個所謂的台灣模式是在跟由台灣佈局全球總體策略下它包括幾個重點第一個就是它是由企業來自主規劃到美國來進行產業投資第二個是政府來整合所以是台灣到美國去投資但是由政府來整合政府來整合然後並且增加對業者的金融支持那第三點是要透過台美政府"},{"start":9218.514,"end":9226.36,"text":"與政府就是居途居的合作來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境來協助相關產業在美國進行有利的國際布局那請問一下部長在這個部分外交部有沒有角色呢有啊 什麼樣的角色什麼樣具體的其實我們在推動所謂的榮邦計畫就有一個智慧科技園區海外示範計畫"},{"start":9239.991,"end":9252.342,"text":"那所以我們榮邦計畫這一次我也知道說我們在這個預算編列的部分增加了68億嘛對不對那在這68億的預算當中是不是您剛講的協助剛才我們經貿辦講的這個所謂的園區計畫那也是在這個68億其中呢相關的資源"},{"start":9265.313,"end":9287.002,"text":"比如說我們這個台灣Tower就是中油的地那被收回也可惜我們把它變成一個其實就是一個單一服務窗口跨這個就是台美之間的這個服務可以整合在這裡那我們譬如說巴拉圭我們以前我們就是把一個廢棄的工業區開發成台巴智慧科學園區"},{"start":9288.002,"end":9314.304,"text":"對 我問的是台美的部分不是說我們今天的主題是台美我本來是針對邦交國可是現在也推動譬如說台美以外像菲律賓像中東歐的國家我想要問的是我們這個榮邦計畫裡面的68億當中有哪一些部分有多少的經費是在剛才經貿辦講到的跟外交部所共同合作的有關台美談判這些科學園區相關的協助經費"},{"start":9315.865,"end":9327.751,"text":"目前並沒有特別分對美國因為我們在啟動這個榮邦計畫是針對我們邦交國還有理念相近國家但是因為現在台美的經貿的談判有出現科學園區我跟委員報告比如說像最近電電工會有公佈有沒有要在墨西哥設這個TIMA科技園區就是我們跟他們討論因為我們要公私協力有些國家由企業來主導"},{"start":9343.959,"end":9366.906,"text":"然後他們本來就要投資我們之後審查預算的時候會一個一個問您因為我要問今天就是在談台美關稅的議題您剛上來的時候我第一個問題問您的就是說在這個我剛講的這個半導體的部分這個我們外交部有沒有角色您告訴我說有然後我就問說有沒有一些具體的預算等等的就是具體的協助方向"},{"start":9367.526,"end":9391.71,"text":"那你具體有協助方向的話他當然也會有預算所以我才問說我們具體對於剛才所說的這個所謂的半導體投資的部分外交部具體的協助方向跟方式是什麼那運用到哪一些資源是 我剛剛講融幫計畫我們要設定對象邦交國跟理念相近國家兩大類理念相近國家本來是針對中東歐跟菲律賓等"},{"start":9392.35,"end":9406.996,"text":"但現在包括美日歐其實很多的國家都適合我們去跟他一起合作這裡面涉及到就是科技資金跟人才三大塊那這個政策對美方面我們並沒有外交部另外特別編列預算因為當時在形成榮邦計畫的時候你都放在裡面了嘛"},{"start":9410.578,"end":9431.898,"text":"但是因為政策的主張的內容是相近就是有關於智慧科技園區海外示範計畫那這裡面會有一個交集所以我想要請問一下剛才你講的這個美國的部分因為你講說嘛榮邦計畫除了這些原本我們一些邦交國理念相近的之外美日的部分也會把它納進來嘛因為也跟我們理念每日歐都有嘛那我特別詢問的"},{"start":9433.359,"end":9458.998,"text":"我特別詢問的就是說在這個榮邦計畫的這個整體的預算規劃當中對於美國談判就是對於美國投資或是美國相關協助的部分包含是園區的部分它佔了多少的比例呢是分開的是多少呢但是因為現在因為台美的談判裡面有出現了所謂的台灣模式會有科學園區所以我們的榮邦計畫同樣這個模式也可以蓋美國啊來這個怎麼樣去"},{"start":9462.54,"end":9483.234,"text":"結合成一個台灣模式所以並不是說我們一開始針對美國的這個不用去編預算不是這是分開的我知道但我要問說因為它包含在裡面所以它包含在裡面它可以包含它不是它可以包含你預算都要編了那你一定已經有一個想法跟規劃了那我問的是說對於美國的對於你剛剛講的園區的這一部分來說的話是佔這個榮邦計畫裡面的多少經費"},{"start":9492.2,"end":9505.95,"text":"這麼簡單的問題沒有在這方面另外別列預算只有這個政策就是行政院核定的龍邦計畫我們的對象國家那不是有包含美國嗎那因為我們本身也在推動智慧科技園區海外示範計畫同樣的不限對象的話理念相近國家裡面也可以適用不是也可以 你一定是那也可以的意思是也可能沒有行政院包括經貿談判辦公室"},{"start":9519.08,"end":9524.224,"text":"這個我們外交部會是參與但是對美的這一個關稅啦或者是232條款或是投資或供應鏈的合作這個還是整個行政院跨部會的事情但是如果他們需要動用資金的話在外交部來講應該不會來自於我們這邊的資金啦那你剛剛不講說科學園區等等的投資的部分我剛剛已經在講那個有一點時間也就是說我們要推動"},{"start":9543.76,"end":9555.672,"text":"智慧科技研究院海外計畫我們已經跟以大帶小公司協力軟硬兼施這個內外循環有四個政策設計硬的部分是誰要硬我再跟委員詳細報告我們最近怎麼樣在一些友邦推動軟硬兼施硬的部分軟體跟硬體啦"},{"start":9562.279,"end":9573.404,"text":"我們不要只是賣硬體的製造我們要軟體的服務系統整合老半天倒數我說是軟體跟硬體我實在是覺得因為這樣子口訣我多問了兩句之後就變成就從那個軟硬間是突然變軟體跟硬體那不講這麼多總之我想是這樣子的因為先前剛剛講的這個生態系赴美的事情那國發會說事前都不知情我最後詢問一下外交部事前是知情的嗎"},{"start":9591.67,"end":9618.601,"text":"我是想說應該是我們供應鏈的擴展沒有啦 我問的就是蕭美琴說的可以有台美聯合艦隊包括整個晶片生態系的這件事情而已你不要跟我講別的我就是專門問你這個部分就是蕭美琴副總統說台灣投資美國包含整個晶片生態系因為我要告訴你喔國發會他們說事前不知道喔那您事前是知道的嗎"},{"start":9619.639,"end":9639.779,"text":"用什麼名詞形容是另外一回事就是生態系啊這整個台美關係我是很清楚的生態系赴美台積電生態系赴美這件事情嗎我的理解是半導體供應鏈的拓展這不是移植這個是我們成功的模式因為我時間不夠了還有其他人要質詢"},{"start":9640.66,"end":9663.024,"text":"所以我簡單講我覺得你們就是事前不知情啊因為你這個供應鏈整體的這個說法那大家都知道啊那如果說大家都知道的東西蕭美琴副總統要提出來那又怎麼會變成是一個新聞國發會會怎麼說事前不知情呢所以不知情以後就告訴我說不知情就好了就不用另外再講說哎呀還有什麼其他的東西我的概念跟理解那時間有限謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9667.674,"end":9670.256,"text":"好 接下來請賴會委員委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請行政院經貿談判辦公室那個徐那個主秘書還有我們農業部主秘還有農糧署主秘還有我們動植物防疫檢驗檢驗署好 請上列人員上台備詢 謝謝"},{"start":9697.679,"end":9726.079,"text":"那個我在這裡要先請教那個徐竹蜜就執密徐竹蜜就是說針對的在這一次農產品的零關稅還有就是農產品的零關稅還有他在畜牧產業裡頭標示的就是說不得標示那個肉品的進口來源這兩個議題先跟你做一個探討因為"},{"start":9726.779,"end":9750.103,"text":"台南就是稻米跟畜牧的一個重鎮那這一次稻米關稅跟糧食安全當然我們希望一定會守住國家的底線因為看起來就是說這整個談判的過程裡頭我們是把晶片跟工業放在優先那是不是會犧牲掉農業尤其是稻米的一個產業那我們還會維持一個公糧的制度嗎"},{"start":9751.617,"end":9765.628,"text":"向委員報告就是說我們在談判的過程中一向是都是秉持四大的原則就是國家利益產業利益國民健康以及糧食安全來跟美方來進行談判那美方也知道我們這四大的原則所以你還是繼續會就是公糧繼續收購嗎"},{"start":9768.323,"end":9791.067,"text":"有關於整個談判的細節因為談判還在進行當中所以還是等到談判結束的時候有沒有這樣的一個準備呢還是公糧你還是會維持就是說是一個那個26塊然後就是虎島收購的價錢還是維持在24.5塊錢就是說起碼這個數字是不會改變太大的"},{"start":9792.929,"end":9817.131,"text":"我們有討論過啦 不能講因為這個就已經牽涉到協商的細節你要知道這個制度在台灣二十幾年都沒有改變你不能讓台灣民因為關稅配額的一個制度其實大家這些道龍都是在喘息中求生存"},{"start":9818.558,"end":9844.556,"text":"所以尤其是中南部很多的一個農地他們還是用來種稻米的所以我在這裡要特別跟徐主秘做這樣的一個報告你要特別的關心還有豬肉的一個關稅跟產業的一個轉型怎麼樣穩定豬農的一個信心我在這裡請教農業部就是林主秘委員好"},{"start":9846.238,"end":9874.065,"text":"我想針對的就是說台中無期一個三百場是用用這個等於是他是吃那個廚藝的就是吃飯的那就是我們在這裡頭我們10月10號發現有狀況了10月14號那就是說這個豬場爆上去了那台中台中的那個動保處來檢驗因為他說在治療中所以他沒有採驗檢體"},{"start":9875.984,"end":9893.274,"text":"到了昨天 昨天為止他講說死了117頭其中有一頭我們檢驗出就是非洲豬瘟核酸 核酸陽性所謂核酸陽性就表示已經是傳染到了"},{"start":9894.249,"end":9922.805,"text":"可是祖密一隻蝶子75天它的病毒還是存在的尤其是非洲豬瘟它是一個大顆粒的一個病毒你們現在剛才在記者會上面做了五項五項的一個防疫的一個措施是不是有沒有掌握到就是說這個豬場在範圍5公里內有沒有其他的一個豬場也是受感染啊你知不知道"},{"start":9923.735,"end":9936.793,"text":"跟委員報告一下就如同剛剛委員所講的我們農業部的收益研究所昨天早上11點44分收到台中東寶處送來的這個檢體那我們在昨天的下午6點"},{"start":9938.243,"end":9951.755,"text":"在用PCR驗出這個就是確定的嘛你核酸就是確定的嘛我跟你講你CPR確定了以後你有沒有全國現在開始全國少一次我跟你說祖密我是獸醫我對這個問題我非常非常的緊張你要知道我們已經20年20年完全就是非洲豬瘟已經那個都是節炎體的"},{"start":9962.885,"end":9983.876,"text":"那你這麼大的一個問題這個考驗到我們農業部在這個危機處理上的一個真正的一個應變的應變的一個方式啊不然你會害死這這麼大龐大的一個那個豬籠啊好來繼續我要知道五公里內有沒有其他的豬場目前是三公里三公里有幾場"},{"start":9985.205,"end":9999.386,"text":"不過我還是要跟委員報告雖然我們昨天晚上部長有召開緊急的會議但是因為今天早上七點半有一個專家諮詢小組的會議那剛剛十點是記者會現在目前這個當下是中央應變中心的這個會議"},{"start":10000.407,"end":10019.917,"text":"所以這一些會因為我一早就來這邊所以我們便沒有參加所以對於相關的應變措施有沒有掌握就是說在這個租場周邊有沒有租場這個是非常重要的你現在全國禁運五天這個是合理的就是我們要注意到生物安全你現在就是不能退出你知道嗎你如果退出的時候你就全國都死了這個是非常嚴重的那到底他的周邊有沒有租場啊"},{"start":10027.421,"end":10042.981,"text":"你有沒有掌控昨天的報告是有幾場昨天的報告送來的時候是三公里內是有兩場但是其中的一場是早就停養了所以另外那一場規模多大"},{"start":10045.297,"end":10054.662,"text":"就是我剛剛講的這些都是在今天早上的專家會議討論因為我沒有出席那個專家會議你是主任秘書耶我沒有辦法在這邊做回答這個很簡單的這些基礎的"},{"start":10059.384,"end":10086.5,"text":"注意生物安全 完全完全就是把它牽住了聽起來因為是吃噴的聽說這一個病毒跟越南的病毒其實是相近的所以這個防疫有破口可是這個防疫破口如果我們可以把它防堵起來的話這個就等於是一個空襲警報所以應該要非常非常的謹慎"},{"start":10087.543,"end":10113.548,"text":"是 我們也馬上會在台中設立一個這個前進的應變所我們杜次長會下去當任這個指揮官是 好 謝謝那我想在這針對的就是美國關稅跟我國出口供應鏈的一個支持我們看到了190億裡頭完全都沒有畜牧產業這個也是要請你們另外再來報告好不好是 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":10117.13,"end":10123.573,"text":"好 接下來請何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在 請林德福委員上台質詢謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請那個林部長 請林部長"},{"start":10137.956,"end":10147.17,"text":"還有經貿辦公室等一下那個徐秘書還有經濟部次長何次長謝謝"},{"start":10152.421,"end":10176.048,"text":"部長 我請教你因為美國媒體報導這個國務院在10月7號發布最新的旅遊建議就是針對馬爾地夫發布第二級的提高警戒這個旅遊警示並點名當地存在恐怖的攻擊的風險來提醒計畫前往的旅客務必要提高警覺"},{"start":10177.972,"end":10200.764,"text":"對這樣的事情 那我國外交部對馬爾地夫的旅遊警示能維持第一級灰色的提醒官方說明並未提到這個恐怖攻擊的威脅只有提醒國人從事水上活動要注意安全那我請問部長為何沒有提高馬爾地夫的旅遊警示呢"},{"start":10203.085,"end":10223.175,"text":"那個報告委員我會進一步來瞭解那當然同仁有給我一些說明那當然如果美國國務院已經有列為旅遊局勢而且人家有正式公布十月七號但是我們這裡還是停留在過去我希望這個很重要因為國人到我們還有丟的還不少"},{"start":10224.276,"end":10238.93,"text":"一定要警示他們讓他有心有戒備近日有媒體提問說美國總統川普是否會為了以習近平達成協議而犧牲美國對台灣的支持"},{"start":10240.292,"end":10251.681,"text":"川普總統則沒有正面的回覆提問今年6月民主基金會民調指出67%的民眾認為美國是將台灣作為與中國對抗的籌碼而且66%的民眾"},{"start":10260.948,"end":10281.907,"text":"三分之二認為美國總統川普會為了美國的利益出賣台灣那本席也提醒外交部有責任要捍衛中華民國的利益民眾對美國的擔憂本席也希望外交部不要忽視要認真的看待部長你有沒有想法"},{"start":10283.258,"end":10285.799,"text":"謝謝我覺得委員所言甚是我們自己跟美國的關係當然有台灣關係法跟六項保證川普這個總統在就職之後也確實有對這個包括台海的和平穩定"},{"start":10302.104,"end":10330.587,"text":"一再的就是在聲明中包括多國的G7來去呈現但是有涉及到就是說美中關係會不會跟台灣有關我們是密切注意那也都是持續溝通那我們也相信當然我們台灣也要就是我們跟美國的關係怎麼去加強是一個面向那個部長川普總統他是生意人"},{"start":10331.435,"end":10359.983,"text":"他是以他自己的利益作為導向因為你從種種他這一段時間的關稅他的作為為什麼韓國日本可以那我們什麼都答應人家我們什麼都沒有關稅20%再疊加講實在話我們的談判代表當然很辛苦但是所談出這樣的結果我們很多傳統產業幾乎沒有辦法生存"},{"start":10360.811,"end":10386.648,"text":"水五金還有包括工具機包括自行車業包括蝴蝶籃等等那些產業慘慘慘啦站在人民的立場來看這個你現在多少人失業我希望我們關稅的談判代表硬一點啦不要什麼都軟趴趴的人家講義我們作善啦那個部長其實很多人一直經常跟我提啦"},{"start":10387.455,"end":10415.605,"text":"美國 我們台灣會講一句話說他會保庇你老邸 不會保庇你新家這個就是現實的存在那如果對美關稅的談判最終的結果比主要競爭對手的關稅來得多等於是讓國內這些廠商在起跑點上就輸給日本 韓國的廠商本期是希望說台美關稅談判能夠爭取到台灣商品"},{"start":10416.385,"end":10444.584,"text":"的適用百分之十五不疊加的對等關稅的特例近日媒體報導說台美關稅傳出有望於美規車進口零關稅全面開放美租來達成取消疊加的稅率剛剛有委員也特別提到其實那個是美租我們都知道過去民進黨執政民進黨在野的時候"},{"start":10447.265,"end":10459.029,"text":"都嚴格的要求 現在要把美豬弄進來那我請問部長 經貿談判代表公司那個代表 你們有什麼看法我請經貿談判"},{"start":10462.454,"end":10477.233,"text":"是向委員報告那這個有關於這個我們跟美國美方的談判的話我們政府都是在秉持著四大的原則就是國家利益產業利益國民健康跟糧食安全來跟來跟美方進行進行交涉對啊但是把在眼前的不是這個樣子啊對不對而且"},{"start":10480.037,"end":10489.4,"text":"已經談那麼長那麼久人家美國跟日本韓國跟日本都已經確定我們還在那裡就談談談談像韓國跟日本他們是在七月底確定我們之所以還在繼續談判的原因就是因為我們在爭取232的關稅的優惠待遇美國對半導體的調查都還在進行當中台美還在談供應鏈合作的方案"},{"start":10507.205,"end":10534.884,"text":"所以目前還在但是已經從32%減到20%一個暫時性的距離32%減到20%20%比人家的15%不加疊加落差太大那些產業根本就沒有辦法生存嘛是 所以我們會繼續努力是 謝謝委員指教我們會繼續努力我是希望站在自己照顧我們產業的立場該怎麼做 怎麼要求不是一味著人家講義我們作善啦因為本來還有要問那就算了 下次再問 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10540.86,"end":10543.565,"text":"謝謝接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":10566.244,"end":10590.38,"text":"部長好 我去上一次質詢的議題韓國人民主日報說緊急戒嚴的時候他們有個司令官來台灣尋求諮詢尋求支持 然後我問你們有沒有抗議是不是有要求他更正你們上次跟我說說有要求他更正然後更正以後會通知我這個是我們上一次質詢的進度"},{"start":10592.042,"end":10615.462,"text":"那你們後續回覆我的東西我一定會追啊你們說有更正那問題是什麼問題是根本沒人家根本沒有理你啊你怎麼會跟我說有更正從頭到尾沒有更正啊現在網站上面的日期跟內容一模一樣從你們回覆我到現在到目前為止沒有任何更動"},{"start":10616.926,"end":10632.993,"text":"人家根本沒有更正啊你們怎麼會跟我說人家有更正我看不懂啊現在是在騙我嗎騙我會有什麼幫助嗎對我們台灣的信譽造成這麼大的傷害你們說有更正是在自我欺騙嗎來 請部長"},{"start":10636.856,"end":10659.412,"text":"因為我剛剛看到委員的質詢是當時曾正式回應有關於更正就是說以總統府的那個說明為主但是委員剛剛提到是說我們要更正是要去駐韓的代表處要表達對這件事沒有啦 我再跟你講一次過程上一次我問他的時候"},{"start":10660.673,"end":10686.585,"text":"說有更正他說答應要錄出再繼續追蹤我說一出更正消息可以把副本給我嗎陳明琦說沒問題結果回覆了我以後我一定去double check我double check的結果就是根本沒有更正你左手邊我又紅框框起來的是你們外交部回覆給我的內容右手邊是我查證的結果根本就沒有更正啊"},{"start":10687.834,"end":10708.808,"text":"如果委員如您所說我們有去交涉更正沒有更正也應該要回答委員如果我們去交涉而要求他更正有更正也要來說明所以我會在這件事情後續去追蹤這是上一趴的進度上一趴陳明祺就是這樣跟我講的我現在的問題是根本沒更正"},{"start":10710.403,"end":10731.195,"text":"騙我說有事實上就沒有沒關係啦我不要一直在這個問題上面打轉部長也知道我的風格我一定追到底的啦回去以後請部長徹查瞭解這到底是怎麼回事是在自欺欺人還是在欺騙我還是覺得用混的就可以過去一個禮拜之內以書面回覆我可以嗎"},{"start":10732.318,"end":10756.106,"text":"可以好 謝謝下一個問題我現在我們其實都支持中華民國台灣對外的外交那我們看過去從2016年以來我們邦交國的數量是越來越少當然這是中共的打壓全台灣人都知道中共打壓也不是現在開始中共打壓台灣很久了"},{"start":10757.376,"end":10781.497,"text":"過去四五十年來中共都在打壓台灣2016年以後可能打壓的力道比較強所以讓我們邦交國的數字從21個掉到現在剩12個今年我看了你們外交部的預算有援外的預算援外的預算該怎麼花花在什麼目的用途上面這個我們到審預算的時候好好講"},{"start":10782.503,"end":10787.706,"text":"但是我光從整個據實際上面的總數上面來看2016年 員外的經費是90億"},{"start":10792.932,"end":10797.755,"text":"然後到了2019年大概都是90幾億到2020年開始變成100多億到2025年的時候是118億結果到2026年的時候暴漲到202億這樣子的經費這樣子的預算 部長你要交給國人的成績單是什麼"},{"start":10816.61,"end":10832.832,"text":"我跟委員報告我們當然把12個邦交國收好以外很多理念相近的國家像中東歐包括菲律賓我們也要加強你的意思是說要更多錢12個邦交國才能收好嗎我們只有邦交國其實現在的任務業務也比以前多以外我們再擴展"},{"start":10833.573,"end":10853.197,"text":"非邦交國但事實上它的重要性也還邦交國是譬如說我剛剛講菲律賓那榮邦計畫我們相對來講其實立法院也通過對ODA希望要增加但我是有計畫的不是說我是增加了那麼多預算而是要做什麼事情我想這個部分我跟我相信你一定有計畫沒關係 我們審預算的時候再慢慢來看因為我們大的Picture"},{"start":10858.238,"end":10880.88,"text":"總是要讓台灣人民知道嘛台灣人民很關心嘛希望台灣在國際社會發光發亮嘛我們支持我們的外交嘛台灣人也都用稅收去讓我們的官員去做外交總是希望看到成績嘛從2016年的90幾億現在到2026年暴漲到200多億我們總是要告訴國人說我們打算"},{"start":10881.681,"end":10904.821,"text":"要交出什麼成績單才能夠正當化這個錢啊那要不然我如果給200多億跟給90億交出來的成績單一樣那大家就會問啊中間的100多億跑到哪裡去啊這就延續到了我之前一直跟部長所強調的我反對金錢外交啊我反對金錢外交啊我反對金錢外交啊我講過很多次啦"},{"start":10905.999,"end":10921.653,"text":"當初民進黨政府也說要用價值外交嘛啊價值外交後來看價值外交恐怕沒有辦法合理的說明外交部的一些具體作為所以現在呢用了一個新的名詞叫總和外交了價值外交不談了啦"},{"start":10922.513,"end":10947.6,"text":"因為蔡英文總統在講的價值外交我看了很多次嘛現在有個新名詞 總和外交總和外交裡面有一個部分叫價值外交我幫部長回答了啦對啦 總和外交裡面有價值外交那當然還有一些其他的東西嘛然後其他的東西當然就會涉及到錢嘛來 我們來看一下錢卡貝 獨裁者的金庫這個是我那個時候"},{"start":10949.005,"end":10972.305,"text":"在吹哨者協會跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCRP我們合作的企劃我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿我們跟國際的反貪腐組織一起關心台灣作為最大股東的中美洲銀行錢跑到哪裡去了是真的去輔助弱勢小孩婦女"},{"start":10973.386,"end":10986.14,"text":"還是跑去被胡搞瞎搞變成所謂獨裁者的金庫這個標題其實不是我想的這個標題是OCCRP用英文表示 翻成中文當然 因為這個樣子"},{"start":10989.483,"end":11015.752,"text":"之前的總裁也下台了嘛直接被轟下台嘛最近新的總裁來做一些改革你看我功課做得多好新的總裁來你還跟他合照我都準備好了我就知道你會這樣講所以我知道你跟新的總裁有碰面嘛然後他們新的辦事處搬到天母使館特區嘛你也有去嘛剩下不到一成耶"},{"start":11017.092,"end":11029.819,"text":"我說也讓他租金改革啦你說委員講的他內部外部都要進行改革你知不知道卡貝本來在台灣這邊的辦事處在哪101啊101嘛 你知不知道那時候裝潢花多少錢我們現在就是把它改"},{"start":11034.242,"end":11050.274,"text":"換到地方我們那個天母那個地方租金現在就剩下十分之一而且就近跟我們卡貝的國家包括瓜地馬拉貝里斯可以合處辦公大家一起合作我同意委員之前的這些這個指導的意見"},{"start":11051.095,"end":11078.096,"text":"那我們就是 再來要善用我們在卡貝還有包括歐銀 亞銀的我們的這一些資金要用於我們的榮邦計畫 這個是一個第二個就是要 改革要大幅度的進行這樣子會比較快啦2021年 在101租了一大片辦公室裝潢花上千萬 裝潢花三千萬年租金七百萬"},{"start":11079.636,"end":11104.978,"text":"那個時候我跟他們一起在調查的時候我看到卡貝裡面的這個內臟我看了臉都綠了台灣是第一大股東啊如果不關我們台灣的事情我管這些中美洲國家他們愛怎麼亂花錢他們家的事啊我關心的是台灣是第一大股東啊台灣人有沒有被當盤子啊錢拿去中美洲銀行給他們這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11105.936,"end":11128.931,"text":"我看了裝潢費高達上千萬年租金七百萬我的老天啊在台灣是有什麼特殊重要的任務任務很龐雜會搞成這個樣子啊那但是我也不是看紙上的資料以後就在那邊腦補篇故事啊我那時候做了什麼事那個時候一定是實地考察實地考察跑去Cafe 101的大樓看"},{"start":11130.39,"end":11149.691,"text":"哇 裡面真的是氣派豪華裝潢非常的好啊但是有個特色我跟部長報告叫做空蕩蕩很氣派的辦公室裝潢非常的好加上司機總共多少人用那個辦公室空間部長你知不知道"},{"start":11152.652,"end":11166.128,"text":"五個人五個人 搶運獎搞起來五個人在101大樓好氣派的辦公室裡面都沒有人是這樣在花台灣納稅人的錢"},{"start":11167.535,"end":11195.383,"text":"當初101開幕的時候我們也有大官去拍照啦就像你這一次到天母特區跟他拍照一樣我們那個是合宿辦公啦比較便宜啦是啦 所以我就肯定你嘛我肯定你的改革嘛上一次鋪張浪費嘛幫我們當盤子嘛現在終於發現只要十分之一的租金啊這個就是我要跟部長交換了這個就是監督的價值這個就是監督的力量不要再說齁"},{"start":11197.103,"end":11221.438,"text":"不給你們錢去揮霍就是不支持台灣的外交中美洲銀行對台灣很重要有國際重要的戰略位置不給他錢就是不支持台灣的外交我們當然支持台灣的外交我不支持的是什麼我不支持的是這樣子胡搞瞎搞所以接下來在預算審查的時候我們一定就事論事好好進行實質的審查謝謝"},{"start":11227.608,"end":11247.425,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員不在請高金素美 高金素美 高金素美委員不在請洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在請蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢"},{"start":11261.597,"end":11267.802,"text":"謝謝主席有請經貿談判辦公室執命和經濟部次長請經貿辦還有經濟部次長就備巡台謝謝"},{"start":11279.435,"end":11305.864,"text":"這個月月初十月三號媒體有報導台美關稅談判進入了深水區在五輪的磋商中台灣的速度的向美國提出避免雙重課稅上面協定行政院的副院長曾立軍在月初也在記者會上面說明第五輪的磋商台美共購的產業聚落有譜了但因為台灣的模式與日韓還有歐盟還有直接投資美國不同"},{"start":11307.164,"end":11322.594,"text":"問題是在這第五輪的磋商雖然已經落幕了但台美雙方的供應鏈有關的台灣聚落的模式的合作還有最重要的232條款調查這可是涉及我們台灣最重要的護國神山半導體的存活的兩大議題現在有共識了嗎"},{"start":11326.333,"end":11336.049,"text":"跟委員報告 現在台美雙方仍然在持續密切的聯繫當中在談有關包括半導體產業在內的供應鏈合作方案所以到現在還沒有談好"},{"start":11340.876,"end":11361.673,"text":"那在台灣模式這個部分的話我方是在這個跟由台灣佈局全球的總體戰略底下提出台灣的模式那包括第一個是由企業自主規劃到美國進行產業投資第二個是由政府來整合民間投資佈局增加對業者的金融支持第三個是透過台美政府G2G的合作來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境"},{"start":11363.467,"end":11378.466,"text":"所以現在就是談判辦公室就是說副院長提到的台灣聚落模式這個方案是有確定但是現在是最新的談判的進度是美國到底有沒有正面回復台灣提出的方案呢"},{"start":11380.137,"end":11406.444,"text":"美方對我們的提案是感到興趣的那雙方也都是在這個美方對我方提出的台灣模式是有高度的興趣的那台美還是在就這個供應鏈的合作方案在跟美國商務部持續的磋商當中那我再請問一下就台灣聚落的模式真的可以為台灣創造出有別於日韓超過數千億美元的投資的心路嗎那要如何創造呢"},{"start":11409.527,"end":11427.578,"text":"是 向委員報告就是說有關於這個我們的台灣模式它的原由一開始是因為我們台灣的這個科學園區的經營模式它是全球獨有的再加上我們台灣的許多的產業園區這個工業區等等那其他國家難以複製這樣園區的規劃籌設還有經營模式"},{"start":11431.3,"end":11458.939,"text":"我國願意跟美國用透過政府跟政府的合作來創造有利產業聚落來形成的環境這樣也可以降低我國企業去單打獨鬥的這個成本跟風險所以我們是導入過去產業聚落以及科學園區的經驗來在這個談判裡面那耕留台灣還是我們談判的最高指導原則那我們的高科技產業的垂直供應鏈必須依照耕留台灣的原則來做全球佈局不是將產業外移"},{"start":11460.663,"end":11479.151,"text":"所以其實我為什麼今天要提出這樣的疑問和擔憂是因為目前關於台灣聚落這整個模式有一些學者上面非常的優先的指出台積電在台灣能夠高效的運作是靠的是緊密的聚落上中下游的供應鏈從設備材料商和客戶的聚落的集中才能在機器故障的時候馬上隨時的支援但問題是美國的土地範圍非常的大"},{"start":11489.615,"end":11493.117,"text":"產業環境分散根本沒有辦法在24小時內馬上隨時的配合經營的風險在台灣其實是高出許多的另外美國的勞動制度對工時其實他們要求的非常非常的嚴格台灣常見的責任制加班在美國可能會變成是強迫勞動"},{"start":11507.722,"end":11519.987,"text":"所以這樣會不會增加台商未來到美國投資帶來的訴訟的成本還有就是另外一個挑戰是投資的規模上面的落差美方是期望我們台灣在美建立有50%的產能估計大約要5000億美元的投資但台積電目前承諾投資只有1650億的美元雙方的差距非常的大即便建立了產業的聚落如何才能達到美方滿意的"},{"start":11536.693,"end":11537.896,"text":"規模呢不要到時候又犧牲了半導體然後讓台灣的產業被迫外移讓專業的人才外流那請問經濟部你怎麼樣看待這個擔憂和意見呢"},{"start":11548.028,"end":11572.101,"text":"跟文報告那個台灣的這個科學園區或是我們產業園區發展的經驗它是一個群聚的一個大家供應鏈合作的一個結果那我想現在台積電已經宣布1650億的投資案未來它會有這個6個這個晶圓廠在會在這個美國所以也就是說需要這個有台積電的相關的供應鏈"},{"start":11573.021,"end":11598.838,"text":"必須要在旁邊來服務這個台積電的這個相關的一些運作這個也是我們台灣科學園區成功的這個經驗所以未來可能會面臨到剛剛委員提到的這些問題包括勞動力的這些問題或是說一些相關的這個美國相關的一些這個稅的這些問題的部分我想這個就是我們在跟美方在談判的過程裡面我們就是希望說政府對政府"},{"start":11599.618,"end":11619.403,"text":"提供一些行政協力 協助的這個部分我想美方他們也有把這個部分列入考量希望千萬不要發生台灣產業和人才被迫到美國發展然後一定會衝擊到台灣就業的市場和經濟發展所以我還是希望我們還是要以台灣的利益為優先考量 是 當然那請執密先回座 繼續我要請教經濟部的次長"},{"start":11627.113,"end":11631.936,"text":"次長因為本席比較關心的是台美關稅中有關提高藥品關稅對我國的影響所以我想請教一下次長美國10月1號開始針對品牌和專利的藥品徵收100%的關稅藥品公司在美國設廠包括已經動工了還有正在施工的這些製藥廠才可以免除關稅那次長你知不知道美國其實是我國西藥製劑的最大的出口國"},{"start":11651.75,"end":11655.174,"text":"因為在2024年的生技產業白皮書上面顯示2023年從台灣出口到美國的藥品的金額就高達新台幣185億那請問次長就經濟部的了解和掌握台灣的藥品是否可能會因為這樣被科徵高關稅而失去了整個競爭的優勢"},{"start":11670.83,"end":11685.211,"text":"根本報告因為這個都還在美方都還在調查當中那他到底會課徵多少這個稅率這個我想等到我們這個看美國那邊這個評估了這個結果我們再來跟國人再做報告"},{"start":11686.235,"end":11688.716,"text":"所以其實像我認為政府應該每年出口美國上百億的國產的西藥其實要開始尋求外銷的市場像國產學名藥這些外銷可以協助本土廠商轉銷像東亞的東南亞的西南向的國家還是一些歐洲國家轉移市場還有烏俄戰爭之後全球其實那個時候發現一個很"},{"start":11707.483,"end":11710.305,"text":"嚴重的問題就是原料的整個供應的問題所以現在各國都在積極發展本土學民藥的產業所以也希望這一次可以政府的政策可以來扶植國內的學民藥的發展所以我想針對這方面次長目前國內藥廠的這些衝擊有影響嗎你有了解嗎還是你們有沒有研議怎麼樣的"},{"start":11730.518,"end":11757.42,"text":"措施跟委員報告這一次我們在這個韌性特別預算裡面本來就編列這個經濟部的部分大概有460億當然就是會協助這些受衝擊的這個產業來提升競爭力然後分散市場那我們也當然協助我們國內的這個生技醫藥這些產業往這個不管在東南亞或是說我們知道東北亞甚至到日本或是歐洲的地區我們去做一些這個展會"},{"start":11760.684,"end":11763.296,"text":"還有一些媒合會方面的一些活動"},{"start":11765.031,"end":11789.681,"text":"好所以還有一點就是比較也比較重要的就是藥證的取得時間是否有沒有考量整個鬆綁相關的法規可以協助藥界度過台美關稅貿易戰的這個欄關呢是這個可以跟衛福部共同研議討論嗎是這個部分我們也會來協助我們的那個國內的產業來做取證這個部分就法規的部分我們也可以來協助"},{"start":11790.681,"end":11794.806,"text":"好謝謝那次長請回座我有請外交部林佳龍部長請部長喂好"},{"start":11804.212,"end":11807.996,"text":"部長好自從川普上任之後其實我們喊出美國再次偉大的口號核心戰略就是美國製造而美國利益優先本席有注意到美國媒體紐約時報在8月的時候美台的關係都是緊張中的標題有指出美國權益對台灣出口的半導體徵收了破壞性的關稅的可能性對台灣來說更大的威脅都是逼近的"},{"start":11830.276,"end":11835.979,"text":"那這是否表示台美的關係根本不是史上最好的呢因為紐約時報上面認為現在是關係異常的緊張因為我想請問部長一下就是你有沒有覺得美國對台灣的關係的態度非常的奇怪因為一方面是"},{"start":11845.385,"end":11847.667,"text":"說要保護台灣但是又要台灣拚命的編列了整個國防預算跟美國去買武器然後一方面又希望台灣把經濟命脈的產業全部移到美國去讓人感覺台灣好像無形中都要被美國掏空了那我只想說請問部長"},{"start":11863.018,"end":11865.821,"text":"你認為美國對台灣真正的態度的用意到底是什麼美國對台灣這萬所謂的他們所說說的好朋友是真心的還是虛情的還是假意的因為本席認為我國最需要的是美國對台政策的一致性否則川普政府一方面在強調台灣戰略的重要性"},{"start":11883.737,"end":11894.179,"text":"一方面又對台灣徵收高關稅而且最主要是把我們台灣最重要的產業護國神山我們都要雙手奉上了請問這樣的做法真的是讓我非常的擔憂所以我想請教部長你對這個有什麼看法報告委員如果從國際政治的本質就是實力所謂的"},{"start":11908.322,"end":11933.61,"text":"才能有和平就是說其實所謂台美關係好不好我們要從台灣的國家利益跟美國國家利益以及之間的交集那我們要分層次來看去找出交集比如說台美之間有一個最底層的都是民主國家都有民意 都有選舉所以彼此國民互相的認同包括就是我們對於這些民主自由人權的價值"},{"start":11934.39,"end":11960.246,"text":"這個是很深層很重要的並不是純粹就是現實的交易而已這個是一層第二個就是安全因為當一個國家沒有了這個安全包括主權被併吞那你都沒有什麼國家利益所以台美之間在安全上是有很大的交集都面對到中國的擴張要挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序第三個我想很重要就是我們的現實的利益在於經濟繁榮能不能帶來人民的福祉"},{"start":11963.428,"end":11976.755,"text":"這個如果找出交集那利益一致自然關係就很好可是人的關係不是只有利益就像我們彼此之間的關係我們講如果說你愛不愛一個人是愛情"},{"start":11979.524,"end":11998.173,"text":"愛情很重要 麵包也很重要因為你要吃得飽我們才能夠長期立志所以台美的關係要有愛情也要有麵包愛情就是理念相近這一個就是建立在民主法制的基礎另外一個就是我們利益一致那利益是要我們主動去找出跟美國一致的利益"},{"start":11999.073,"end":12014.478,"text":"所以我們在談很多問題的時候一定要兩面都談要有同理心要換位思考去找出台美之間共同的利益然後堅持在我們共同的價值觀之上但是照我來看美國都是利益啊因為他需要台灣PB的國防預戰啊其實他有他的長年的自由主義價值觀價值觀是很重要的"},{"start":12023.117,"end":12045.993,"text":"比如說美國的參眾兩院其實美國現在不是川普總統一個人決定外交政策是各種利害關係的競爭對外交政策的決定所以這個時候你看有些訊號感覺上有一點好像不一致可是如果你跑好地去把它分析其實台美的關係是好的那我們還要更好那我們要避免它不好"},{"start":12046.98,"end":12073.326,"text":"那因為中國是一個崛起的這個霸權他挑戰現有秩序那也挑戰到台灣也挑戰到美國啊所以我們怎麼樣跟美國有一個總和外交跟三鏈戰略就是在價值外交同盟外交跟經濟外交跟他鏈結在一起那符合彼此的利益這樣子外交關係就會很好好啦時間到了我還是期許外交部更加努力和美國建立更好的外交關係好我們會來努力謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12081.113,"end":12109.204,"text":"接下來請吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定宇委員沈伯陽委員 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我們意思是 暫時不必確定我們繼續來進行本署的議定 請先讀報告事項二 邀請內政部就替代役訓練及備役召集運用進行專題報告並備質詢 討論事項一 審查委員王美惠等18人擬據替代役實施條例第59條條文修正草案案二 審查委員盧美玲等18人擬據替代役實施條例增訂第55條之5條文草案案"},{"start":1657.442,"end":1663.726,"text":"三 審查台灣民眾黨黨團拟據替代役實施條例第55條之一條文修正草案案宣讀完畢本次議定說在報告署行跟討論署行合併諮詢現在我們來介紹在庭的委員跟類似的官員我們第一位麥義正委員"},{"start":1689.127,"end":1690.928,"text":"我們羅美玲委員我們黃捷委員我們現在在庭的委員有超過3個我們是不是意思是來確定剛才所報告的有沒有遺漏還是有什麼問題沒有這樣我們就來確定"},{"start":1717.895,"end":1720.257,"text":"我們內政部 劉部長我們議政室 沈司長國防部資源規劃師人力資源處盧世察法務部李檢察官"},{"start":1746.673,"end":1754.939,"text":"行政院主席總署公務預算處李專門委員我們在這裏來補充介紹蘇僑會委員"},{"start":1770.894,"end":1779.165,"text":"請提案委員說明提案要旨我們請提為羅美玲委員提案說明"},{"start":1789.316,"end":1812.621,"text":"謝謝主席 大家早安為了配合全民國防兵力結構的調整強化國家在戰時 災時的整體動員跟應變能力並確保替代役備役役男依法接受召集之義務得以確實執行本席您與替代役實施條例增訂第55條之五明定對於替代役備役役男規避召集之處罰規定我們可以看到"},{"start":1814.961,"end":1834.347,"text":"依防害兵役治罪条例第五条第六条规定义务于后备军人如果意图规避或不接受召集令报道需处以刑罚然而现行的替代役实施条例虽然于第52条规定时对无辜不救指定"},{"start":1835.087,"end":1843.778,"text":"執意或擅離執意者可予以行政處分但並未對於服役期滿後列入被役之替代意義難規避召集之行為設有規範導致法律適用產生落差難以達到防度規避召集之實質效果"},{"start":1851.827,"end":1869.827,"text":"随着全民国防政策推进替大疫被应应难在灾害防救 战时后勤医疗支援等领域已逐渐成为国家整体防卫与应变体系中不可或缺之一环那如果为对非法规避召集行为明确处罚不仅削弱替大疫召集的效果"},{"start":1870.387,"end":1897.052,"text":"亦不利于国家在紧急时期之人力动员因此有必要比照防害兵役治罪条例之规定建立替代役被役役男之法律责任明定替代役被役役男如果意图以不法手段规避召集隐匿行踪或拒收召集令者收受召集令后无正当理由不依时报到者其他以诈术或顶替手段规避召集等行为将受刑事的这个处罚"},{"start":1897.552,"end":1913.419,"text":"期望修法之後可以完善現行的替代役制度使召集法制完整並強化災害應變及暫時動員的能力確保國家安全防衛體系之完整運作本席的提案有請各位委員支持 以上謝謝謝謝我們感謝羅美玲委員提案說明我們現在台灣民眾黨代表麥正委員提案說明"},{"start":1933.496,"end":1951.189,"text":"主席 各位親愛的家人大家好 最近大家都看到很多社會案件像是藝人 名人花錢買病歷 假裝生病投兵 甚至還有整個集團幫忙操作"},{"start":1952.189,"end":1978.205,"text":"這些人有錢有門路卻不用經醫務讓真正服役的年輕人看在眼裡都覺得很不公平台灣民眾黨主張病疫制度一定要公平不管你是誰有沒有錢都應該一樣面對義務現在法令雖然有法則"},{"start":1979.656,"end":1986.314,"text":"但很多人最后都以一颗罚金了事根本没有主"},{"start":1988.881,"end":2014.26,"text":"所以這次修法我們要把最低的刑期拉高到六個月讓這種花錢逃兵散兵的行為真正的付出代價這不是要懲罰誰而是要恢復社會的信任感讓大家相信"},{"start":2015.495,"end":2044.879,"text":"服兵役不是傻是光榮在全民防衛的時代沒有人應該靠特權逃避責任希望通過這次的修法讓兵役制度更公正更讓年輕人幸福也讓國家能真正站在公平的基礎上希望大家多多支持謝謝大家"},{"start":2047.995,"end":2053.698,"text":"謝謝 感謝麥政委員提案說明我們現在請內政部部長專題報告跟法案一併說明"},{"start":2066.12,"end":2086.314,"text":"謝謝昭偉 各位委員女士先生大家早內政部在參加今天的內政委員會裡面有兩個口頭報告一個是有關於替代役訓練及備役召集運用的口頭報告一個是由大院的委員所提出的替代役實施條例修正草案報告的部分"},{"start":2086.934,"end":2111.781,"text":"那以下就簡單的部分跟各位委員女士先生做報告有關替代役制度的嚴格跟角色的變遷從民國89年開始實施解決常備兵制爭問題的出發照顧弱勢族群並且解決宗教良心犯兵役問題這些宗旨所以參考歐洲國家社會役的實施成為亞洲第一個全面實施替代役的國家"},{"start":2112.661,"end":2127.881,"text":"結合義南專長與兵役義務專長專用士才士所維護國家社會治安創造經濟發展及支持社會福利並且隨著國家兵役政策調整及政府重點施政事項調整替代役的實施役別"},{"start":2128.602,"end":2157.228,"text":"面對臺灣天然災害頻傳環境威脅跟挑戰從傳統的全民國防提升為全社會防衛任性總統在113年6月19宣布成立全社會防衛任性委員會那內政部主責有關民力訓練與運用的推動包括現役及備役替代役役消役警以及民間災害防救團體等可視民力在面對極端災害或緊急事故的時候替代役即為可視民力的重要來源"},{"start":2158.008,"end":2185.382,"text":"現役替代役應難透過基礎的訓練專業訓練以及在職訓練三個階段以及緊急救護自衛防護防災避難民防教育以及協同演習等五個模組的訓練其中應難完成基礎訓練可取得EMT-1的初級救護員防災室及志願服務等三個證照讓應難服務時協助各機關勤務災時能就地支援機關防救災工作"},{"start":2187.575,"end":2205.864,"text":"114年預計完成13,650人的訓練另外行政院核定112到113年全民防衛動員準備綱領已經將替代役的備役人力納入人力動員準備方案各直轄市縣市政府所列管的備役藝男總人數約299,000人"},{"start":2208.965,"end":2236.707,"text":"替代役备役演训召集人数112年召集6505人113年召集5052人114年规划召集55000人召集日数110年及111年召集1日112及113年医训练种类由1日提升到1至4日114年更提升至2至5日建立我国后勤支援与灾害防救人力的储备体系"},{"start":2237.367,"end":2261.622,"text":"第二大項有關替代役備役支援救災運用的部分一因應花蓮縣馬太安溪堰塞湖溢流造成的嚴重災情內政部首次指導花蓮縣政府啟動替代役備役役男的勤務召集並且指派帶隊官負責帶領役男到災區協助災後復原的工作花蓮縣政府在10月13號起辦理兩梯次的勤務召集"},{"start":2262.162,"end":2287.708,"text":"第三次則是需要來辦理召集對象為涉及花蓮縣的備役藝男第一梯次是10月13到10月17召集120元實際召集總共出席的有95名第二梯次從10月20到24日預計召集120人實際召集為96名勤務召集期間備役藝男的權利義務與替代役現役期間完全相同第三"},{"start":2288.228,"end":2316.127,"text":"第一T4應覽已經協助災區清掃打掃面積達8萬平方公尺街道側溝污泥達2200公尺堆置沙包5100袋家電發放1100件還有搬運上百件的廢棄家電更撥打了900多戶的撤離電話訪問調查等等第三大象有關於替代役現役支援救災復原任務第一114年7月6日在雲嘉南的丹納斯颱風嚴重災害"},{"start":2317.368,"end":2344.624,"text":"除了由灾区地方政府派遣所辖替代役的一男716人次执行救灾及灾后复原勤务以外也及时调度了基础训练当中的替代役警大警专毕业生一共1350人从114年7月14到17日跟地方政府一起从事灾害复原协作任务协助民众清理家园支援替代役人力计4280人次总计投入4996人次"},{"start":2346.604,"end":2360.723,"text":"第二因應華家沙颱風災情及花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖溢流造成的嚴重災情內政部首度跨區調度替代役現役藝男支援災後復原工作從上個月的9月23日"},{"start":2361.644,"end":2388.632,"text":"起至10月20日止已經投入2072人次協助收容 處所 開設 災民疏散 撤離 物資搬運 整備等等工作第四大項有關替代役 備役訓練辦理的情形114年度規劃召集五萬五千人實施四類演訓召集辦理情形如下一 初級救護員EMT-1的繼續教育訓練由各直轄市縣市政府召集在成功嶺"},{"start":2389.392,"end":2407.297,"text":"基礎訓練取得初級救護員證書之各一別退役應難實施4到5日EMT-1繼續教育訓練以延續EMT-1證書效期強化國家整體緊急救護量能114年預計召集1萬人第二有關治安維護組及防災訓練組的訓練"},{"start":2409.238,"end":2419.421,"text":"治安維護組的訓練由警察機關召集治安維護組備役義男實施3日民防團訓訓練並且協調經濟部及農業部召集實施物資大隊專業訓練環境部召集實施環保大隊專業訓練114年預計召集18000人"},{"start":2429.141,"end":2443.502,"text":"第二有關防災救護組的訓練由消防機關召集防災救護組的備役應難實施三日的訓練並且協調衛生福利部設公司以及國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會召集實施收容大隊的專業訓練"},{"start":2445.024,"end":2464.892,"text":"衛生福利部醫事司召集實施醫療大隊專業訓練其中含兩日防災式的培訓課程經過學科測驗及數科測驗合格以後並取得防災式合格證書114年預計召集一萬八千人第三實戰這級訓練由各直轄市縣市政府召集於成功裡基礎訓練接受打靶訓練的退役藝男"},{"start":2467.213,"end":2494.182,"text":"实施两日召集训练以强化全民国防职能114年预计召集8450人第四有关城镇任性演习的训练演习验证替代役支援民防团队能力在想定各项灾害抢救作为借以验证各地方政府临灾应变机制由台北市等11个县市实施二日演训召集已经在114年7月办理完均共计召集866人"},{"start":2495.802,"end":2510.88,"text":"第五有關後續作為的部分第一持續配合國家政策檢討替代役的異別實施替代役制度以來既有一般替代役17種異別及研發產業訓除替代役分發需用機關擔任輔助性工作"},{"start":2511.621,"end":2532.697,"text":"履行政府公共事務或其他社會服務或分發用人單位從事科技產業研究發展工作目前替代役實施役別既有社會役消防役民防役公共行政役及研發替代役未來替代役實施役別本部將持續是國家兵役政策適時與國防部及相關部會研議相關的政策"},{"start":2533.657,"end":2557.143,"text":"讓義男專長專用符合國家及民眾的最大需求第二強化替代役備役義男防災救護訓練替代役人力已經納入民防體系的整體運作在服役期間及退役後持續接受各項自救互助訓練使每位備役義男均具防災士資格並且協同相關民防救災團體演習以手忍任務轉換與"},{"start":2558.883,"end":2574.32,"text":"与灾害发生时就地协助维持社会民生基本运作第三建立替代役被役勤务召集机制建立勤务召集机制本部建立替代役被役役男勤务召集机制在马太安溪艳色湖一流发生时"},{"start":2575.687,"end":2590.652,"text":"提供範本指導花蓮縣政府首次辦理勤務召集花蓮縣災害應變中心指揮官首度宣布宣誓後發動據以制定勤務召集計畫並且經內政部核定藉本次經驗"},{"start":2591.952,"end":2607.205,"text":"建立未来勤务召集机制制定标准作业流程以为规范第二有关建立人力调派的模式协助地方政府区分被疫应然专长类别协助灾害防救工作并且建立模式因应灾后复原"},{"start":2607.745,"end":2633.34,"text":"第三 強化替代役備役應難支援救災訓練及實務演練配合中央各級災害應變中心及防災協作中心指揮替代役支援民眾疏散物資發放 志工導引 災民收容等工作落實召集訓練以強化實務經驗量能第六 內政部將持續強化替代役現役防救災訓練及替代役應難退役四大演訓召集訓練"},{"start":2634.401,"end":2653.608,"text":"使其手忍重大災害時的救災作業以備支援災害搶救等民防任務強化災時政府民間與藝男的合作協力合作充分展現替代役在防救災體系當中的重要資源力量以上檢驗報告敬請各位委員女士先生給予指教謝謝"},{"start":2655.62,"end":2656.922,"text":"謝謝 感謝部長的報告還有一個"},{"start":2665.897,"end":2691.502,"text":"來補充介紹抱歉 謝謝有關於大院委員所提的這個替代役實施條例修正草案一共有三個部分那內政部的口頭報告如下首先對於各位委員對內政部業務的關注跟指導那今天有關委員會委員提案對於替代役實施條例修正第55條之一增訂第55條之五及修正59條條文草案"},{"start":2694.083,"end":2712.478,"text":"內政部應邀列席報告對於上開法律的修正內容將本務的意見說明如下一 修正替代役實施條例第55條之一的條文台灣民眾黨黨團鑒於現有法規對避免替代役徵集者或其協助者較長以一顆罰金或較短刑期為處罰"},{"start":2715.78,"end":2743.775,"text":"拟据替代役实施条例第55条之1条文将最低刑期定为6月使犯罪人无法以金钱作为处罚并且加强犯罪恶主依照现行妨害兵役治罪条例第4条规定对于意图避免义务役之征集者除5年以下有期徒刑而替代役实施条例修正草案第55条之1拟修正为6月以上5年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2744.315,"end":2764.273,"text":"其刑期較妨礙兵役自罪條例為重第二替代役為兵役之一種基於兵役公平性考量有關違反相關義務之處罰亦應尋其一致性因妨礙兵役自罪條例系為國防部主管對於刑度的修正會以國防部採取一致的見解"},{"start":2764.833,"end":2789.666,"text":"第二有關增訂替代役實施條例第55條之5條文羅委員美玲陳委員素月等18人所提案增訂的替代役實施條例第55條之5條文對於替代役義男服役期滿後於非常事變或暫時意圖避免召集服勤及無故不參加或意圖避免平時演訓召集之行為明定處罰規定"},{"start":2791.616,"end":2805.929,"text":"第一本次修法明確規範替代役藝男於服役期滿後對於非常事變或暫時之召集服勤以及平時演訓召集之陰刑義務如有意圖逃避或不履行者均應依法處罰"},{"start":2806.91,"end":2821.991,"text":"此舉可有效杜絕逃避召集行為為確保兵役公平跟制度的嚴肅性第二為適用刑度的部分於非常事變或暫時意圖避免召集服勤委員提案比照後備軍人逃避"},{"start":2823.032,"end":2849.253,"text":"动员召集或临时召集处五年以下有期徒刑考量替代役艺男性质与任务特性处罚刑度与后备军人意图避免勤务召集雷同教士比照后备军人之勤务召集处三年以下有期徒刑至对于无故不参加或意图避免平时演训召集处一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科新台币九万元以下罚金"},{"start":2850.074,"end":2874.935,"text":"第三 修正替代役實施條例第59條條文王昭偉美惠等18人為避免因預算僅少數需用機關辦理替代役被役硬然召集提案修正替代役實施條例第59條有關平時演訓所需經費由主管機關及各有關機關依本條例所定按其應辦事項依運算法令編列預算"},{"start":2876.476,"end":2894.485,"text":"經查現行替代役實施條例第59條規定召集扶勤得室需要辦理所需費用由需用機關或扶勤單位列預算之應因為部分需用機關已經沒有禁用替代役藝男執行公務所以年度預算為編列替代役人力相關經費"},{"start":2895.585,"end":2916.821,"text":"委員提案建議平時演訓時比照國防部後備軍人制造及經費編列全責由替代役中央主管機關內政部來編列新縫津貼主管職務津貼主婦時津貼保險費撫恤基礎訓練及服勤延伸之繼續教育演訓所需經費其前列"},{"start":2917.301,"end":2918.061,"text":"以上簡單報告 請各位委員指教 感謝"},{"start":2943.064,"end":2954.838,"text":"謝謝我們感謝保庭提案的繼續說明我們其他的單位報告請委員自行參與並刊登公報現在我們來進行詢問委員的詢問"},{"start":2964.264,"end":2974.806,"text":"我們要選擇幾點 第一本會的委員會議四分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘 第二本會的委員會議時間四分鐘我們可以十點三十分 截止發言登記"},{"start":2989.195,"end":2996.402,"text":"今天因為有法案要處理 本組會議又沒有要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎?沒有?這樣我們現在來進行詢問請登記帝河輸協會委員發言"},{"start":3020.492,"end":3023.857,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉部長請保重委員早部長好 部長我們今天就是跟您討論替代役職執行的狀況"},{"start":3035.885,"end":3064.499,"text":"那其實在這次花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖的災害因為非常重大所以帶給我們在很多機制上面都可以從方方面面檢討上一次我特別是在跟你討論現場志工因為這一次大量的超過10萬人次以上的志工進到花蓮這邊去讓大家看到了民心民力但也知道這個制度一定要做可是我記得你上一次跟我回答志工可能歸衛福部你的回答是這樣那你這次的回答還是要一樣嗎是因為志願服務法"},{"start":3065.819,"end":3080.569,"text":"是由那個衛福部來主管我知道但是志工的服務的話在這次馬太安心那邊其實所有中央各部會都有投入幫忙做志工包括導引或是分配工作等等都有包含在內對 所以部長我就是在跟你討論機制的問題"},{"start":3082.27,"end":3101.608,"text":"那我這次很高興在你的這個報告當中第二頁其實就看到了你這裡寫總統於113年6月19日宣布成立全社會防衛任性委員會然後呢本部主責民力訓練與運用之推動那就包含了現役被役替代役役銷役警及民間災害防救團體等"},{"start":3103.129,"end":3115.625,"text":"可是名利所以確實沒有包括志工可是這整個的機制名利訓練與運用就是在內政部啊所以我還是覺得以內政部警察消防民防通通都在內政部之下這個機制應該要怎麼處理那"},{"start":3118.488,"end":3126.175,"text":"我認為雖然法律規定現在衛福部啊啊看起來是這樣可是這個怎麼運用在災害裡面我認為還是應該內政部來主責啦為什麼呢因為你看我們沒有那麼大的能量我認為你可以在全社會防衛任性委員會當中建議把這個東西拿出來討論它不是行政院的機構它是一個諮詢性的角色那內政部會去協調相關的部會好 內政部協調可以好 內政部協調我收尾主責兩個字"},{"start":3147.592,"end":3168.998,"text":"內政部協調 這我可以同意因為你看 副長我現在要跟你繼續討論的我們今天要討論替代役可是既然有10萬人次的志工進去做救災修復清整的這個工作那我想請問這一次內政部同意了花蓮縣政府的申請召集了這個替代役進去那替代役這240人次這次做了什麼"},{"start":3171.798,"end":3187.788,"text":"我們在報告裡面有跟這個委員說過我們現在有兩個提示那第二提示呢最近這兩天才過去基本上就是配合花蓮縣政府他們的指派工作因為花蓮縣政府的指派工作嘛那他指派了什麼工作"},{"start":3188.648,"end":3196.334,"text":"第一個大概就是第一個還是仍然協助清理災區然後疏散撤離的部分然後再來就是沒有沒有沒有他有疏散撤離嗎有有有我跟委員報告這個因為裡面的這個替代液有兩種一個是現役替代液一個是被役替代液"},{"start":3203.739,"end":3207.682,"text":"現役的替代役我們在這次調動了12個縣市那是現役替代役因為你剛講的就是現役我再精確後備我們再叫招回來的240位備役替代役當中這240人次他們做了什麼其實我們可以看到從網路上面一直變成新聞的狀況這240人次其實就是去清整環境清整環境其實說真的就是挖土"},{"start":3229.677,"end":3236.722,"text":"就是清掃嘛所以我們的替代役我們的後備替代役當中尤其是被叫召回來的他有是才是所的備分派任務嗎其實是沒有啊其實是沒有啊報告委員我想再跟委員再補充說明一下因為第一批次的這個備役替代役的召集啊他的召集時間呢已經到9月底"},{"start":3254.853,"end":3281.256,"text":"好 九一底以後所以呢花蓮縣政府認為說把他們分配到做其他的像這個清溝等等這個工作會比較適合那我們就尊重他但是第二梯次開始的時候我們已經聽到第一梯次的這個被替代藝男的聲音那開始就會做比較專業的分類比如說 因為勤務召集因為勤務召 現在還在執行當中對 到今天都還是 就是到今天啊到今天都還有 勤務召集只有"},{"start":3282.337,"end":3300.715,"text":"服務召集只有五天的時間是那他們能做的這個方向呢還是以能夠配合這個官方單位所指派的工作為主那這些呢我們未來都有很多精進跟檢討的空間部長我就是請你在備詢台上告訴我官方現在這五天指派了什麼工作嘛"},{"start":3301.055,"end":3306.358,"text":"花蓮縣政府現在在補判他什麼嗎對啊那我是不是請我們市長跟您報告一下我現在只有幾分鐘可以答快一點嗎報告委員我們這個第二梯次的部分我們有發現到有些醫生我們就把他分化到這個衛生所來做疫診還有相關資料整理那另外他有資訊專長的部分在做他們的後續的這個資料的整備比如說他們要"},{"start":3322.909,"end":3331.136,"text":"這個避難啦要垂直避難或者是要所以你現在要告訴我的是說你第一次一次確實是有狀況因為第一次一次召集來的120人次就是如同網路上說的新聞上報導的120人次在已經有10萬人次的志工去花蓮做清潔工作的時候你還叫招了120位後備替代役去做挖土的工作嘛"},{"start":3346.127,"end":3355.112,"text":"這就是為人詬病的地方這就是我今天在跟你討論要不要檢討機制的部分好但是我聽到你現在的回答你第二梯次就做精進了對不對是好那我要求你提出這個因為到24號嘛20號到24號現在正在進行第二梯次我要求你把現在第二梯次的資料拿出來並同第一次比較給我們看你第一次到第二次當中精進了多少項目多少人次怎麼運用這些可以做到吧"},{"start":3372.802,"end":3401.73,"text":"很清楚嘛 對不對提供給委員會嘛每一個委員會都可以了解這樣的狀況甚至是你們現在其實就可以告訴全國的人民我們改進的速度是非常的快因為內政部是督導事實上這整件事情還是應該是花蓮縣政府啦我老實說啦老實說花蓮縣政府自己提出了教召的這個需求把替代役後備備用的替代役叫回來了他本來就應該要做好工作可是沒有那你現在是督導單位嘛內政部是督導單位嘛所以要有嘛"},{"start":3402.17,"end":3423.103,"text":"那我現在除了要求你提供項目之外我現在直接告訴你我們在替代役現行的狀況之下他其實是有告訴你分工的機制現行替代役的分工他有個要點可是我們替代役義男服役期滿後的這個召集的就是後備替代役的他有召集辦法18條但都著重在召集"},{"start":3423.703,"end":3441.387,"text":"沒有後面的分工所以我建議可以比照現行的這個替代役的作業要點的部分也提出明確的指引你贊成嗎我們目前在這個部分我們其實是對他的專長已經有做一些調查了實際上的應用以後我們會來我要求有一個檢討啦好謝謝謝謝我們感謝蘇喬惠委員執行我們家張志倫委員執行"},{"start":3459.431,"end":3483.593,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長好 部長謝謝那今天是要討論這個替代役的問題那根據這個114年3月18號發布內政部跟國防部公告修正的替代役義男服役期滿後召集服刑實施辦法的部分我們有感覺這個替代役的定位"},{"start":3484.264,"end":3509.411,"text":"有改變的非常的多以前大家都知道是做社會服務那現在是要納入整個國家的防衛體系去來應對非常事變跟暫時的情況那這個轉變我覺得知識體大也牽扯到國家安全所以要請今天這個部長來跟我們說明一下針對所有異難的權益那新修正的這個實施辦法裡面的第三條"},{"start":3510.373,"end":3525.936,"text":"把這個演訓召集跟勤務召集的部分尤其在演訓召集的時候把原本退役後8年內實施一年度一次為限的部分把它給取消起來必要時內政部得事需要增加年限次數跟日期"},{"start":3526.437,"end":3554.658,"text":"因為我們就我看就我了解這個這個辦法裡面來講一般喔這個備疫一難然後要先演訓完然後就可以勤務召集嘛那我想請教一下喔那以這樣子的改變喔大家認為我八年以後我這個退役八年以後就不用再演訓召集現在把它整個調整了以後什麼第一個什麼叫必要時內政部得是需要增加年限次數跟日數喔所以現在也不是一年一次每次五日現在整個完全開放"},{"start":3555.259,"end":3580.465,"text":"所以然後地方動員人數也從十分之一暴增到二分之一所以現在內政部有沒有統計整體的人數到底能演訓召集跟勤務召集尤其演訓召集的人數是多少那叫召的目的到底是什麼那總共的時間還有到底叫召到底我退役多久以後現在超過八年都要來演訓召集到底是到底是幾年因為我看你們一個表裡面25年"},{"start":3581.673,"end":3589.943,"text":"的人數你們都在計算在這個今天的報告裡面去所以是不是退役以後25年的人都有可能叫招是不是請部長回答"},{"start":3590.929,"end":3613.037,"text":"報告委員基本上我們現在仍然是按照替代役的實情辦法來處理到目前為止沒有所謂得釋需要著徵的部分這個必要時得釋我現在把實際上執行的情形會跟委員做一下補充報告那我們現在的狀況其實就是跟國防部差不多都沒有做什麼所謂的必要時著徵"},{"start":3613.837,"end":3640.425,"text":"那目前的狀況我是不是請省市長部長你們有修法律一定有相關的原因你們有相關的大概預測的人數然後預計的年限好好謝謝拜託這個法律的修正剛才我們部長也說明過了就是要比較國經國經有這樣的一個機制那你們有沒有預計必要的時候什麼叫必要時候增加年限是增加幾年次數跟日期那你們沒有完全都沒有"},{"start":3641.206,"end":3652.319,"text":"這樣子的規劃為什麼就直接啟動修改這個實施犯法因為第一個就是比照國金他們一樣替代役跟常備兵他們的權利義務基本上是一樣所以我們把他先訂這樣一個跟國金一致的規定你們是先"},{"start":3655.754,"end":3682.881,"text":"先怎麼樣 先修正然後再來看是不是以後要試用嗎那以後有國軍 國軍也是這樣子訂那國軍有必要我們也會試著跟國軍來做同樣一個標準 一個應用那麼如果以後我們要啟動這個鬥志基源規模增加的原因是什麼啟動這個機制就是國軍如果認為有必要要所以以後以後是不是要協助國軍那協助國軍要做什麼是不是來支援關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":3684.537,"end":3712.558,"text":"還是做軍事輔助的工作就是說請這個緊要告訴我替代役在整個國家總體防衛裡面扮演到底是什麼角色我們最重要就是要做所謂的疏散避難還有緊急救護還有災民安置以及物資配送這些是我們以後替代役在防救災跟民防的工作跟那個所謂的這個CI就是關鍵基礎測試我們替代役是沒有進入這個區塊的"},{"start":3713.798,"end":3721.149,"text":"替代市未來會不會成為防災市每一個現在我們今年開始在替代這個基礎訓練都會有防災訓練這個可是"},{"start":3726.301,"end":3753.776,"text":"可是當遭之後如果要勤務召集的時候在非常事變或戰時的時候這些替代藝欄也是需要來協助嘛是嗎是 備役的替代藝欄所以這一次我們就這一次像我們這一次馬太安西疫流的事件就是我們請了花蓮縣政府然後把備役藝欄用勤務召集的方式來實施好 所以我還是要希望說那個師長這邊是不是可以你這個修法當時修法啟動的目的"},{"start":3754.384,"end":3780.9,"text":"難道就只是為了配合國防部你自己內部有沒有做一些內部的報告規劃統整的這個資料請問有沒有我們這樣子想因為如果說有必要時的時候像我們特別最近我們做一些防災式的訓練藝蘭包括縣立跟備役都防疫相當好都反應相當好現前有一些備役超過8年的藝蘭他們認為他也想要學習那我再請教一下那請問現在備役召集剛剛部長特別有報告說"},{"start":3784.202,"end":3808.116,"text":"今年規劃114年是要召集到五萬五千人那包含很多個四大演訓嘛那我剛剛看報告裡面都看到說你們內部現在只有說預計會演訓的人數那現在實際的人目達到了達成率是多少目前我們達成率是要將近五成啦也已經十月了才達成五成對因為中間預算後來我們在辦追加預算才"},{"start":3808.874,"end":3834.527,"text":"因為我們預算被凍結的關係那你今年到年底的時候大概預計達到我們會來努力啦我們會來努力盡可能的達到好那最後我是不是再請部長回應一下好那今天討論的非常重要兩個問題大家看到最近的新聞就是今天這個其他政黨也提出來有關於有關於傘兵跟傘召集相關的修法針對傘兵的部分他在準備預計要修正的是"},{"start":3836.348,"end":3854.008,"text":"這個55條之一他有一個最低處6個月以上的一個部分那第二個是要請教說反召集這是新增的一個法令最低就是他修在第55條之五就是說避免這個召集的服務是處5年以下尤其徒刑那剛剛我聽部長這邊講說是要改成3年嗎是嗎"},{"start":3858.607,"end":3869.91,"text":"還沒有確定可是我看到你報告裡面是寫這樣的內容所以您的意思是說這兩個法條你們有建議你們內部會考慮修改嗎我們的考慮是這樣子啦其實替代役也是兵役的一種所以我們都會跟國防部齊步這樣會比較好那國防部原則上是贊成內政部的主導方向那再加上那個委員有提到最近有所謂的這個閃兵役人的部分過去不要講役人啦閃兵的部分呢"},{"start":3885.055,"end":3900.726,"text":"在這個法院裡面判的部分大概都是六個月以下所以目前我們的兵役召集已經從四個月延長到一年之後那其實這已經不符合新的這個兵役法所以傘兵處六個月以上的部分您這邊認同嗎"},{"start":3902.616,"end":3916.787,"text":"我們可以可以一起來討論那國防部的意見現在是什麼方便國防部他們有派員過來我們不敢幫國防部做這樣子的會議所以現在已經開啟討論的部分了嗎今天的會議的時候內政委會大概什麼時候會有一個結論出來"},{"start":3918.588,"end":3938.212,"text":"我們想再過一陣子譬如說給我們三個月以上的時間看看我們必須要做這個替代役的這個有關相關條文的修正我們跟國防部甚至要跟衛福部因為包括體衛的部分或者是跟法務部這個罪行法定程序還是要一樣那我們再送出來會比較好預計大概三個月的時間嗎好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝市長謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員質詢我們家張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":3957.321,"end":3982.572,"text":"我先請醫政司司長現在醫政司司長好 司長我們現在所有的備役不管義務役或替代役他的授訓 他的什麼到底是國防部主責還是我們這個醫政司"},{"start":3983.393,"end":3990.301,"text":"我們目前替代的授信是一個是現役 一個是備役我剛問你的是包含EUE"},{"start":3991.561,"end":4013.311,"text":"對 義務役常備兵當然是國防部替代役的部分現役就是也是義務役的替代役是按照兵役法第二條的規定也是義務的一種第二條規定是這個軍官役士官役士兵役跟替代役所以替代役也是兵役的一種那有關你替代役的現役的基礎訓練是由我們內政部會同國防部來辦理"},{"start":4014.491,"end":4031.429,"text":"因此我們現階段所有全國替代役的基礎系列就在成功營這個營區也可以國防部介入好啦 我簡單說所有的我們的議政司其實你最主要的其實你是做這一個"},{"start":4034.868,"end":4050.786,"text":"增兵或通知的程序最主要的是我们要议政室在做吧我们这样子我们按照兵医华三四条的规定就是增兵处理是我们内政部在负责那么替代役的主管机关是我们内政部"},{"start":4052.088,"end":4069.868,"text":"長輩兵的訓練後備管理是由國防部在負責就是在兵役法裡面我們是有做分工我剛剛就是問你這個問題嘛這個一句話可以回答的你可以講了這麼久我也真的覺得佩服你你知道嗎就一句話而已那"},{"start":4071.673,"end":4090.478,"text":"我想請問一下EWE他們本來就是什麼兵種就過去就是什麼兵種嘛 對不對那我們的替代役呢其實裡面就包括你們講的有很多的項目而且以前跟現在是不一樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":4092.526,"end":4117.186,"text":"自從實施替代役以來我們就是都這樣子在辦理替代役的基礎信念就不是啦你聽不懂我了一別就有很多種我們現在又有改了嘛對不對是所以以前跟現在又不一樣了那我想請問一下那如果我們的替代役未來他在備役的狀態之下我們拿請他來"},{"start":4118.545,"end":4136.779,"text":"叫招授訓或什麼的我們有沒有用他的特殊的專才然後去加強這一部分的一個訓練因為你要全民防衛嘛對不對你裡面可能有醫生可能有什麼很多種喔是 我們目前"},{"start":4137.76,"end":4149.647,"text":"就有分治安維護組跟防災救護組那治安維護組基本上這部分是由警政署來做負責的這個招訊那治安維護組裡面又有所謂的這個"},{"start":4151.113,"end":4167.835,"text":"環境清消以及這個物資配送這個是又牽涉到經濟部跟環境部這個部分我們有做這樣一個請問我只問你啦那如果是有醫生呢醫生的部分就在防災救護組裡面"},{"start":4169.877,"end":4174.359,"text":"有是由消防署這邊來做整體的規範但是裡面我們有請衛福部的醫事師來做這方面的專業訓練還有社工師剛剛你就講說這是你們醫政司的業務你現在又說都是他們我要問你的你就都說他們"},{"start":4190.278,"end":4216.05,"text":"那到底你對業務你到底有沒有了解這個部分是因為我們有做這個需用機關我請部長好了張委員我想我們師長比較仔細一點第一個就是有關專長訓練的部分由目的事業主管機關來訓練那內政部的議政司在基礎的國防訓練上面跟國防部一起配合對啊其實一句話可以講得很清楚對不對比較緊張"},{"start":4220.396,"end":4227.419,"text":"那我再請問像現在未來國防部什麼其實從俄烏戰爭等等的無人機其實扮演了一個不敢說最重要的角色"},{"start":4235.543,"end":4251.772,"text":"但他在不管你全民防衛或等等裡面他都有這個角色存在那我們未來我們的替代役我們有沒有這一塊有 我們目前規劃明年要來對我們替代役的這個訓練要規劃八個小時的無人機的訓練"},{"start":4254.693,"end":4280.977,"text":"那現階段我們是已經有在在職訓練也有做部分的已經訓練了今年也有做部分的訓練了那明年是規劃所有的替代藝人在成功領基礎訓練我們有八個小時的無人機的訓練的課程的安排那是在成功領基礎那你他如果是備役之後呢備役現階段是那個治安維護組警察警察的這個區塊裡面他們也有對這個也有把他們當這樣一個課程這樣有啦目前"},{"start":4284.574,"end":4305.679,"text":"警政署有這樣子規劃對於自然維護組這個區塊他們有做這樣的規劃他們用的無人機是跟國防部配合的還是我們自己一套系統警政署的這個部分我就不清楚那我們內政部的部分是我們明年開始我們是會專案採購我們明年的部分明年我們部分我們會採購無人機16架"},{"start":4309.926,"end":4331.697,"text":"我也不問你細節什麼樣的無人機我只有一個啦這種無人機其實有攻擊型的有探勘型的有勘查的什麼的那我們著重在哪一塊我們著重在勘查 探勘比如說在有災害我們去探勘災害的狀況還有傾縮的這個部分我們沒有攻擊型的"},{"start":4334.406,"end":4337.594,"text":"所以我的意思是說要全民防衛在這個我認為這個"},{"start":4342.435,"end":4365.729,"text":"無人機我認為未來會扮演一個比較吃重在情搜在情報的蒐集等等的我覺得這一塊我認為應該要把它放成一個重點去處理是我們這個部分所以我們明年就有做這樣的規劃要來做訓練而且所有的藝覽都要接受這樣的訓練好謝謝委員好謝謝張宏祿委員再來我們請牛許廷委員"},{"start":4373.642,"end":4375.805,"text":"謝主席 劉部長有請請劉部長委員好部長 早安 辛苦了"},{"start":4384.666,"end":4408.49,"text":"這個花蓮馬太安溪的這個救災的時候大概內政部啟動了這個替代役的召集被役替代役的勤務召集被役的勤務召集嘛然後投入救災嘛然後基本上權益是比照替代役當初的服刑標準要有工價有交通費還有薪資的一些津貼至少要確定他來的時候不影響他的生活嘛對不對有內政部負責有花蓮縣政府安排伙食跟住宿對不對對就有本協了解是這樣"},{"start":4413.592,"end":4422.428,"text":"今天是由內政部負責這一次調動異難協助救災的這個模式跟與地方政府的分工溝通是怎麼運作的 順利嗎"},{"start":4423.758,"end":4450.179,"text":"跟委員報告現役替代役的部分都相當順利那包括桃園市在內就是我們提出本來花蓮縣政府就提出其他機具的請求那人力的請求的部分在現役的調動方面我剛剛有報告過有12個縣市的現役替代役馬上過去而且其中還有做倫理現役的當然快嘛因為我剛剛講的是你講特別是備役的這一部分備役的部分第一個它的條件是我們設定的條件第一個它必須花蓮縣級"},{"start":4451.54,"end":4479.257,"text":"花蓮縣的戶籍那還有他是備役替代役所以他在動員的過程當中呢勤務召集的過程當中他的通知時間要有三到五天你不能夠今天講明天就去因為他正在工作那所以第一梯次的動員雖然我們是標120人但是真正來的時候大概是九成左右九成其實是不錯了啦對 第二梯次也大概是九成左右我的意思是說你們在開會討論的時候跟縣政府溝通的過程算順利嗎"},{"start":4481.104,"end":4508.203,"text":"情務召集的部分這是全國第一次所以花蓮縣政府在處理兵役制度上面的公務員會比較不習慣但是因為我有下去花蓮親自協調對 我有跟花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長跟他講說謝謝他願意幫忙所以從我們開始啟動要做情務召集的時候到他真正發布的時間大概過了五天左右"},{"start":4508.863,"end":4534.834,"text":"當然還算可以可控的範圍因為每個都是在災害應變中心事情都非常的繁多我想我們應該互相體諒其實很好我是要讚美我說其實地方政府跟中央政府只要溝通順利大家群策群力他的效果總是不錯的所以這點我是覺得我是持正面態度我覺得蠻肯定的我要順著這個題目往下問就是說因為我們現在都希望這個替代役的備役藝男他可以發揮更多的功能嘛防災也好名利調度也好他其實應該有一個"},{"start":4536.952,"end":4558.383,"text":"這個隨時調度的功能你第一次在災情的時候用指揮中心指揮官的角色去啟動當然會有一些些小的這個摩擦或者是一些適應的時間但我覺得沒關係總是啟動這個事但既然有啟動而且效果看起來是不錯的那麼未來這樣子的一個機制能不能變成一個也許可長可久或者是可以更靈活支援的一個機制本期的建議是這樣就是說我們"},{"start":4559.341,"end":4576.043,"text":"這個台灣難免這個多災多難地震颱風等等常常有一些特殊的狀況所以其實我們都希望民力能夠有效的運用那麼這一次是因為你是首次是用召集的方式嘛所以你大概限制地域等等但其實在這次的救災我們看到很多人其實是熱血投入嘛產值超人等等"},{"start":4576.443,"end":4590.365,"text":"那是不是有可能未來盤點一下替代備應應難的這樣一個人力資源提早的來做比如說做個平台登記制比如說其他縣市我要自願去救災有沒有這樣子的一個機制可以來做運行"},{"start":4591.747,"end":4615.285,"text":"是 報告委員我想分成兩個階段您大概所說的所謂的產值超人是自動自發去的那是志工嘛 純志工嘛他到底是不是備役或是那個那就不重要了這不重要那這個部分呢其實我們在最近的馬太安溪告一段落之後也會針對志工以後要怎麼樣做比較好的分配工作會做檢討跟精進的方案那您現在所說的這個備役替代役對 我講的是替代役的部分嘛對 所以我們"},{"start":4615.945,"end":4641.691,"text":"更能夠肯定說我們現在的現役替代役要有三張證照就是防災室EMT-1緊急救援五號這個我覺得很重要因為這一次去參加的現役替代役或被役替代役不管是他們做什麼工作至少沒有什麼受傷這些狀況因為我們也會緊張你至少把人力確保好我的意思是這樣你現在有一些你會要求他有一定的職能等等既然他有現在訓練都有"},{"start":4643.331,"end":4671.31,"text":"那就要好好的調度這一批的人力或者是儲備這一批的人力所以其實建議啦 看看議政署這邊登記平台嘛也就是說 我既然有這樣的職能國家發生災難的時候我也有這樣的意願去投入救災其實你可以做個預先登記嘛因為你內政部其實提供了一個相對還算OK的配套嘛我有工價 我有時數等等這是你們可以政策協調的事情嘛那你如果未來有一個這樣的平台預先登記你是未來不管在哪裡災變發生的時候我手上有一批比較快速的人力可以運用啦"},{"start":4671.826,"end":4700.227,"text":"这是本期的政策建议希望做一下参考好我们在第二梯次的时候已经慢慢在做这方面的改变所以才会有医护师的人到卫生所去协助对所以因为你讲你刚刚有回答苏小慧委员之间你讲的志工因为有志愿服务法等分属不同部位但你内政部可以直接掌控的就是替代役因为这完全是内政部主责所以说我的意思说针对被疫难的人力调度你能不能预先排序他们哪些专长在发生的时候你可以快速调度我是觉得可以做一些政策上的设计这本期第一个建议"},{"start":4700.687,"end":4719.467,"text":"第二我們談防災現在希望地帶疫投入防災等等也很多社區像你們馬市長非常專家他在做防災社區的一個推廣跟跟跟防災社區或任性社區任性社區都很好但問題是這樣這本期的觀察我們從第一線現在越來越多村裡等等他都想要去成立所謂的防災社區但是"},{"start":4719.963,"end":4734.459,"text":"我想這部長一先做民意代表你也很清楚啊這到了村裡的時候你就會發現里長下面很多熱心的林長對不對然後林長同時也是巡守隊很多同時也是環保志工現在加入了防災社區他可能都會一起受訓變成防災室"},{"start":4734.981,"end":4758.256,"text":"當然這一群核心的人力有多項技能這個對於村裡的工作運作是好事可是他同時也會有問題嘛 對不對就同樣集中一群人然後這一群人可能也許年紀大了一點等等他並沒有充分的運用所有的人力所以本期在這邊做的第二個政策建議是有關社區的防災式的訓練啦你怎麼樣跟你義南的資訊來做結合嘛我覺得很多義南其實已經有證照他已經有技能了"},{"start":4758.696,"end":4778.358,"text":"那他可能退役之後他變成備役藝男的身份那他未來是他既然要發揮他的功能他其實應該被鼓勵投入社區防災室嘛你至少要讓他跟附近的村里長熟識嘛讓他加入不一定要去硬性的上課啦但是只要有一個管道或一個什麼樣的方式你鼓勵他去就近參與嘛這樣我社區防災室的人力"},{"start":4779.038,"end":4786.46,"text":"一方面不會給里長造成負擔二方面年齡上的差距就不會那麼的明顯我想也是一個有效調度的方式我跟委員補充一下我們現在的設計方案第一個我們的民政司已經要求全台灣7,448個里長來接受防災室的訓練有這個基本的概念那現在完成率是25%左右他們其實都覺得這個概念是好的而且我們都是全額補貼"},{"start":4803.723,"end":4818.852,"text":"然後第二個是我們現在設計叫做防災協作中心就是鄉鎮公所或是區公所下面的村裡如果要成立防災協作中心區公所這邊的話未來我們就是大小這個人數的多寡會配備20名到50名的替代役"},{"start":4819.932,"end":4844.051,"text":"來協助未來如果有天災的時候幫忙而不是說某個里那這個部分呢他就會接受區公所的指揮因為志工去幫忙是有時間去沒有時間就不去但是如果是接受區公所或是防災協助中心指揮的時候他會比較有條問問有組織性來協助既有的防災協助體育這本席尊重但我的意思是講因為很多里長或者是很多里長做防災社區的時候他其實很熱心"},{"start":4844.871,"end":4856.273,"text":"那有的時候調集人去上課那有些門檻上的一些落差嘛那我的意思說你替他一些人力可不可以合理來做調度跟補齊嘛一方面讓他更貼近村裡嘛尊重防災協作中心二方面也讓這些防災是真的讓地方是有強力連結的嘛可以再補充一下我們防災協作中心目前甚至配備物資就是緊急發電機或是緊急的濾水器等等這些我們也配備進去在這一次的國土任性預算裡面"},{"start":4873.237,"end":4875.878,"text":"房災裡面你們會做很多努力啦這一點本席很支持啦大概會有上百萬以上這樣的補助那這個我們還要教導他所以我們很希望說這個國土任性計畫裡面相關這個部分尤其我們全部都是給地方政府不要被凍結"},{"start":4888.087,"end":4911.739,"text":"我說真的啦 如果說比如說我們這樣 名利的調度啦 防災的配套他其實很集中在防災 然後不要有太多政治力去介入的時候其實對焦 我們都很正面的處理這個事情那我就希望說 既然你已經培養了很多 替代醫幾乎都是防災室了嘛那是如何讓這些防災室深入社區被替代醫的防災室還沒那麼多 但是現替代醫 只要到成功嶺都一定要"},{"start":4912.219,"end":4937.249,"text":"對 但慢慢會越來越多所以你未來這批人你怎麼讓他跟村裡做結合這是本席的重點而且是最好是他的戶籍所在地當然嘛他就比較知道你住哪裡我就在哪裡服務其實是最好的嘛對 而且鄰里也都熟啦不好像來個陌生人要做什麼事情這就是本席的第二個政策建議我希望內部提一些想法跟方案其實我們已經在進行了我剛剛都跟你補充說明了那你就會後把相關的一些資料來做補充我想這樣的一個政策我們希望看到成果可以嗎好 謝謝部長辛苦了好 謝謝牛旭廷委員再來我們請王美惠召委"},{"start":4950.62,"end":4955.642,"text":"主席我們先補充補充覺得先喝一個茶嗎沒關係沒有問題謝謝委員的關心補充在這幾天尤其早我們有看到逃兵因為在那裡做假的身體因為你們一般"},{"start":4974.11,"end":4982.592,"text":"你們看起來,你們是覺得柴海是高血壓而已嗎?不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的不止,還有蠻多的"},{"start":4995.757,"end":5003.59,"text":"心中的在這裡面 我覺得要跟市長跟部長說的就是 不管他是有錢 不管他是外國人 我覺得"},{"start":5010.211,"end":5012.192,"text":"想為中華民國的男主人要做兵的時候沒做兵還用這個手段來投兵我覺得非常不應該啦現在是大家覺得說下屬的人為了他的下屬的生命的表現所以沒想到要做兵的時候"},{"start":5038.902,"end":5040.643,"text":"應該是很多的人也會做出這種手法在普通說實在 我也覺得說想不到 我真的想不到因為想為一個十五年男子漢在台灣生活大漢的 還不做兵"},{"start":5066.841,"end":5073.791,"text":"從小到大 國家保護他 家庭保護他 跟他做邊不走"},{"start":5075.279,"end":5078.42,"text":"所以我們今天本身也拜這個探討在探討的責任也看到說實在 大家發聲都說得好聽我本來就要出來主修 還有想想的 我會怕 我不敢出來所以我知道我的不對 我參會 還有發聲 這樣就算了"},{"start":5101.089,"end":5102.17,"text":"那這樣的話 我覺得我們這個問題會越來越大 會越來越多因為我覺得 正在選舉的時候欧北部說人們什麼東西"},{"start":5116.564,"end":5118.085,"text":"沒有做病什麼什麼到現在比較實施用錢去買不用做病的所以保證在這裡你有要提供什麼意見給我們是 謝謝委員的關心我給委員做一個補充報告"},{"start":5134.834,"end":5161.761,"text":"我们刚刚在回应媒体的时候有特别提到112年的体位标准修正以后结果免疫率打16%那太高了因为我们现在的健保制度还有加上体检其实都很好很多慢性病或其他的病其实都可以处理得很好的所以会发生这样的病病目前为止我们看到的就是说高血压还有增重"},{"start":5162.441,"end":5165.583,"text":"自己吃大口的扁平族勢力或者是精神系統這些都是在這一次這個由地檢署他們發動要偵查的時候為什麼會出現這種假的病例或者是購買來的病例所以我們也要呼籲就是說本來"},{"start":5184.212,"end":5206.323,"text":"這個服兵役就是國民的義務而且服兵役呢這是很公平的本來是四個月你就不要去做兵現在一年也不要去做兵我覺得不好意思啦其實這樣子就是沒有達到我們自己國民應盡的義務那為了這樣的部分呢我們跟國防部在明年四月會把這個體位的這個標準或者是檢測不要出現漏洞的部分會給它補齊因為保庭本身在這裡"},{"start":5213.37,"end":5216.131,"text":"差不多 你也有解釋在這裡 我覺得 你剛才有說過我們健保這麼多年 如果大家的身體健康這麼好如果要做病 要去體檢的時候 又不可能所以在這個從小到大的身體檢查"},{"start":5237.498,"end":5241.32,"text":"我們可以尊重健保卡這一點再來剛才補充的你講的貧富族、貧貧族那種像人家說阿姆爹那種的我們講真的那種的都沒辦法改變啦它出產的它比較大的有沒有就知道啦所以你們看那個"},{"start":5262.609,"end":5265.491,"text":"整套整套的裁定他不可以做嘛所以那種的看得很清楚的是這個心臟跟這個口腔跟說實在的那個有的口感我真的他不是本人的跟醫生串通的"},{"start":5282.762,"end":5284.743,"text":"不是本人經營的也有耶有有的吃藥下去給他的蝦餡也有耶對所以沒錯這個問題非常要緊再來剛才有說我們運盲不能一做不對再發生蝦餡然後來喚醒不要做了"},{"start":5308.151,"end":5312.896,"text":"在這裏我們要拿去這條法律的時候要讓他能夠如果各位醫生不可以醫學來修因為你們這個單位你們有你們的心法要不然我們國防部到目前為止有什麼心法請什麼人來回答國防部"},{"start":5340.34,"end":5358.345,"text":"是 報告委員就是有關於那個在提高這個刑度的部分我們這邊其實主要整個大方向基於這個兵役的那個公平性來講的話我們是在支持的一個部分只是說在一些刑期他那個設定上面我們這邊再跟內政部再做一個研議因為我覺得這次要再研議因為我覺得這個事情不是早就發生了"},{"start":5369.195,"end":5389.649,"text":"一定發生很久的所以我們要積極去處理以上保庭市長跟我們公佈的本事有一些還沒說完我要用書面報告麻煩跟阿娃回答以上謝謝好 謝謝王美惠 趙偉"},{"start":5399.06,"end":5399.26,"text":"謝謝,感謝黃鐵委員質詢"},{"start":5410.205,"end":5430.86,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們請劉部長請安保電委員好部長好 也跟您先請教一下因為這兩天這個逃兵風暴 延燒那看到說其實我們內政部目前掌握除了目前已經偵辦的20多位還有大概92件已經送檢掉了所以總共大概是120多件在這個133總共133件在這個犯罪集團裡面嗎"},{"start":5437.297,"end":5462.724,"text":"很有可能因為大家都集中在閃冰藝人那其實還有一些大家可能沒有這種藝人光環的那我們發現到我們在清查的過程當中就是醫師所出具的診斷書或者是幫忙協助的這些醫院的醫療裡面是不是有出現問題那這相關的這個部分我們查出來以後已經移送給地檢署來做下一步的偵辦"},{"start":5463.74,"end":5482.591,"text":"好 謝謝部長因為這個我非常好奇的是說目前手上這個133人之外到底這個規模到底有多大因為包括部長其實剛剛也提到說現在台灣免疫的比例大概是16%可是其實鄰近的國家包括韓國跟新加坡其實大概都是5%而已"},{"start":5483.752,"end":5506.988,"text":"所以如果在這樣的預估之下你們有沒有預估說接下來主動清查下去大概還有多少人數有可能是面臨逃兵的這個問題報告委員這樣子是一個非常好的方向我們大概有兩個目前在這個體檢或是增兵的過程當中是不是有一些不孝的醫師或是醫療院所"},{"start":5507.628,"end":5512.83,"text":"跟著做這個開具不實的證明讓後面的兵役徵集單位出現這樣子的一個錯誤的判斷那這個部分呢我們除了尊重地檢署在偵辦之外那我們可能會跟國防部呢就提出假的這個這個體檢的資料的話要跟他的健保制度來做勾擊也就是他平常的時候血壓都正常那為什麼要徵兵檢查的時候血壓突然竄高"},{"start":5534.358,"end":5554.363,"text":"那這個部分呢譬如說國防部他們有提出一個想法就是說如果他有這種狀況提出復檢的時候呢可能要要求他住院讓他知道說他是不是刻意去吃藥或是有刻意什麼狀況然後把他降成原來他是屬於在健保卡裡面的就醫的紀錄裡面的這樣子才是真正的一個就醫證明"},{"start":5555.203,"end":5561.505,"text":"那這些都要啟動這個程序的時候還必須要跟我們的醫檢單位也就是衛福部做詳細的這個說明跟詳細的溝通那如果這一套系統可以完成的話就會完成我們跟內政部跟那個國防部所說的這個體會標準或者是體檢的過程當中怎麼樣防止這個漏洞往這方面來發展那另外就是我們會尊重立委所說的部分就是說如果你提供造成這個兵役上面變成免役或是變成替代役的話"},{"start":5584.534,"end":5610.175,"text":"那不要只有六個月的這樣子的一個刑期也許要往上但是往上也要有上限這個上限呢我們必須要再跟國防部再做一個比較橫平式的檢討那也會詢問那個法務部他們的意見好 謝謝部長的說明這就是我非常想要理解的就是接下來到底我們預期第一個現在逃兵的這個人數的規模到底有多大你們手上有掌握嗎"},{"start":5612.305,"end":5620.852,"text":"我們目前就是掌握到133個那後續我們還都有在清查所以這個主動清查的程序會持續下去對 我們會持續好 這是我第一個要知道的第二個就是剛剛部長說的其實這個是接下來最重要的事因為其實昨天我們顧立雄部長他其實有提到說接下來會加嚴這個免疫的標準但我認為加嚴免疫的標準只是說這個BMI未來可能"},{"start":5640.067,"end":5654.593,"text":"會提高或者是說接下來可能會納入更多的人口但除此之外我認為最重要的是防弊因為剛剛部長提到一個非常重要的重點就是這個中間還有非常多的可能是前客可能是協助造假的醫師"},{"start":5655.833,"end":5678.834,"text":"這是整個犯罪集團啊這些人必須要通通的抓出來才可以知道說即便未來你們加嚴標準提高了未來要納入人口更多了但是如果沒有抓到這些作弊的人都沒有用嘛對 所以如何加嚴這個免疫審查的標準這個我認為是內政部接下來最重要的責任好 謝謝委員的指教就是我們"},{"start":5679.915,"end":5696.129,"text":"也沒有跟委員報告其實某一些特定的不肖醫師啊地檢署有掌控OK那他會跟衛福部來做勾結好那基於這個信賴的原則我們就是以衛福部他們勾結出來的原則讓他們自己會移送到這個地檢單位"},{"start":5697.99,"end":5701.471,"text":"好謝謝部長的補充說明喔那最後刑期的部分當然因為現在大家詬病的就是說買逃兵這件事情太容易了你可能十萬塊就可以買到一張造假的病歷那後來就算被抓到了罰金也只要罰個十幾萬等於是你總共加起來二十幾萬就可以完整買到逃兵的程序大家說哇"},{"start":5721.095,"end":5735.182,"text":"好便宜喔好划算喔千萬不要讓這件事情變成大家認為是一個可以鑽的漏洞兵役制度的公平性跟國家的安全絕對不能建立在這種被大家這種非常賤價的風評之上好嗎拜託部長"},{"start":5742.007,"end":5756.997,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想就是我們查出了他如果是閃兵或逃兵的時候他在36歲除役之前還是要回來服役但是36歲以後會有其他的方式這一點我們正想把這個漏洞再補齊"},{"start":5757.796,"end":5784.064,"text":"好這個也要拜託畢竟追溯期還有20年嘛這個20年我相信都還是可以能抓都還是可以抓得到的那最後一點時間請教一下因為大家都在講說這一次我們是首次的讓這個被異的替代役來進行勤務的召集那我認為這個經驗真的非常非常的寶貴那當然也有很多要檢討的地方可不可以請部長跟我們明確的告訴我們你們目前"},{"start":5785.124,"end":5809.484,"text":"實行出來經驗是什麼有沒有檢討那下一次會如何精進呢是 其實因為在第一批次結訓的時候我有到現場那我看到其實每一個參加備役替代役的藝男他們都覺得很有成就感可以幫忙解除災區的困擾尤其是他們自己的家鄉但是後續有提到說能不能根據他們的專長來做專用"},{"start":5811.192,"end":5835.146,"text":"那就表示說我們在勤務召集的過程當中我們一定要跟縣市地方政府來配合說他的專長在什麼地方那未來分派其他在救災的任務的時候呢比較有比較高的效率但是我們也看到說90幾個人120幾個人出去的時候其他的效率會非常高他不是一般的流動的部分跟他講說這個結果裡面你兩天要完成什麼工作他其實兩天就全部完成"},{"start":5835.606,"end":5853.546,"text":"那是因為是群策群力的關係那當然在帶對關裡面的包括地方政府或者是中央政府的我們未來還會跟防災體系互相結合所以在做專長專用的分配的時候更能夠馬上精準的去知道說哪個地方是最需要替代役這些人力幫忙的"},{"start":5853.906,"end":5879.466,"text":"好 謝謝部長說明我最後補充一個點因為其實我這邊接到的經驗他們也都說這個經驗非常好而且這樣的召集對他們來說都是一個榮譽但是呢他們的意見反而是說覺得工作量太少了他們希望自己可以再更有效率的做更多事情那我覺得這是讓我很感佩的地方所以第一個如果未來這樣子替代役的效率其實很高那其實可以再賦予更多的責任給他們"},{"start":5880.427,"end":5904.446,"text":"第二個也有替代役跟我反映說機具的分配包括說需要一些專業的機具以及現場的這些不管是說從鏟子手套等等這些該給他們的都要明確的直接的給他們第三個就是剛剛講到的專長分配未來一定都要更適材適所讓第一時間召集這些替代役的時候大家都知道自己的專長可以貢獻在什麼地方好我們會多做溝通好謝謝部長"},{"start":5907.819,"end":5909.502,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃姐委員質詢我們現在邁進委員質詢"},{"start":5923.685,"end":5938.405,"text":"謝謝主席其實每次執行我們都花了很多時間準備資料收集意見希望行政單位能真正的理解問題但常常因為時間有限還沒有談到核心就必須結束"},{"start":5939.426,"end":5953.796,"text":"所以很多政策的討論其實都需要更充足的時間才能講清楚也讓各部會有機會好好說明所以今天如果時間稍微有超過一丟丟所以也誠請我們召委能夠從容一下讓我們可以把重點問題討論完整畢竟這些都是關乎民眾權益的重要議題 謝謝"},{"start":5966.072,"end":5972.75,"text":"好 我們有請內政部議政司司長"},{"start":5977.513,"end":6004.426,"text":"好市長好我們一南依法就是有服兵役的義務但事實上我們看到的替代役免役的確定早已被社會質疑是就是有錢人的特權就像今年初爆出就是藝人假的病例逃兵案還有王大陸陳零九的這些藝人"},{"start":6005.376,"end":6018.525,"text":"花錢買診斷證明成功逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃"},{"start":6035.171,"end":6046.858,"text":"是這個部分我們發現到這個問題事實上就是我們在有一個判處免疫體位的這些案件都必須要送到我們"},{"start":6048.385,"end":6066.905,"text":"體會審查委員會那麼我們分這個初選跟複選那初選的時候發現到有問題我們就會提到這個複選就是複選這個機制是我們跟各醫協會的派出來的醫生專業的醫師我們共同來討論相關的案件那"},{"start":6068.227,"end":6087.604,"text":"會發現到這個高血壓這個案件是因為我們在審查委員會發現到很多類似集中的這個案件案件相當多所以我們在前兩年年底發現到之後我們在今年初我們就主動的把相關的案件送到地檢單位來做偵辦所以這個部分就是我們在體會審查委員會裡面就"},{"start":6088.63,"end":6108.131,"text":"發生 有發揮到這樣的一個功能那後續這個部分有些案件因為體溫區分標準的規範還不夠嚴謹的部分我們也發現到這個問題所以我們跟國防部就來啟動體溫區分標準的修正好 除了醫療證明的漏洞所以剛才你說就是"},{"start":6109.5,"end":6134.429,"text":"就是很多的把關但是還是有那麼多的就是醫療證明的漏洞不管是家庭的因素還是宗教的因素申請替代役也被網友質疑濫用所以請問我們的醫政司如何嚴格驗證這些申請因為剛才你講的是有但是除了這樣還有沒有"},{"start":6136.158,"end":6160.624,"text":"有沒有更讓大家就是說你們沒有濫用這樣是這個因為標準的修訂是配合我們的兵役證之後來做調整所以剛才委員有示教就是說有關你家庭因素的部分以往是相對的比較寬鬆那我們已經做了一個標準的修正了這個標準的修正之後我們已經很大部分本來是可以服務"},{"start":6161.738,"end":6190.59,"text":"補充邊或者扶替代役的都已經移到到長邊議題位了以往這個部分差不多有五千多人那現在這個部分呢只有三千多人來扶替代役那這個替代役呢我們這些家庭因素的替代役我們現在就把他們規劃訓練為這個防災式的訓練以後到公所裡面去應用但是因為我看到你們的報告裡面都半年了但是沒有一個真正的作為啦所以我們看到你說查出了一百多件無病歷史"},{"start":6191.43,"end":6204.439,"text":"就是突然就是有得病的可疑案例顯示就是我們陷阱的審查機制確實有在漏洞所以我們希望說這個後續的處理的進度還有其中多少案件確認是偽造還有我們的醫政司是否是已經追回就是散兵的義男的義務移送司法"},{"start":6218.809,"end":6219.75,"text":"因為我們看到你講了 越講越多但是半年了 我們在你報告裡面我們沒有看到的具體的計畫跟作為"},{"start":6228.191,"end":6249.561,"text":"有我們都有按照這個步驟配合地檢署的偵辦我們目前都有跟他們來配合那些有些案件因為是監察不公差所以我們還是沒有對外來做宣布那這個部分呢我們都積極的在有在配合這個請委員放心我們不會我們不慌不腫啦一定這個只要是涉及逃避兵役我們絕不寬待"},{"start":6251.564,"end":6258.448,"text":"很好我們因為身為主管機構所以我們希望就是監討為什麼就是有這樣的漏洞還有長期的存在也越來越增加對不對昨天就是也有也有其他的案件的產生所以我們只是說不能單靠就是罰金的制度"},{"start":6272.092,"end":6298.626,"text":"是否真正能防止有錢就能散兵的亂象是否知識雜種對頂替的他人或者介紹他人頂替的行者這個就是想要問你的要有一個最重的或者是怎麼樣的行則讓他們才覺得說要必須不能再去做這件事情"},{"start":6298.925,"end":6327.844,"text":"是 這個剛才我們已經報告過了包含部長 包含國防部我們取得共識之後我們在三個月以內就會提出法案行政委員來給我們指導好 我們謝謝司長這些問題的核心都是公平都要是公平 一定強調公平兵役公平是國人最重要的事對 所以體會審查就是要透明替代役的制度也要讓我們社會信任希望我們的議政司"},{"start":6328.624,"end":6352.308,"text":"要能正視就是這個制度的漏洞拿出集體改進的方案還有讓我們的兵役制度回到我們的公平可信的基礎也更讓年輕人感受到我們的服役服兵役不只是義務是我們的更是我們的藝男的驕傲還有榮耀"},{"start":6356.57,"end":6374.864,"text":"這個才是真正我們想要的也是我們的名聲謝謝是我們會來努力謝謝我的指教謝謝謝謝我們感謝麥政府委員我們家高精素美高精素美高精素美不在我們家洗禮政府委員執勤"},{"start":6384.497,"end":6385.08,"text":"我們請劉世芳 劉部長"},{"start":6392.791,"end":6418.8,"text":"學員好部長好部長昨天又因為這個藝人閃兵有幾位的藝人被居體逮捕那我想這件事情其實已經鬧了一段時候那其實我們說實在平常看到這些藝人在螢幕面前都是活力十足而且身體非常健朗可是每次要到當兵的時候呢就要嘛就是可以免疫要嘛就是可以轉服替代疫所以說對很多的年輕人還有家長都覺得"},{"start":6421.266,"end":6448.813,"text":"事實上是非常不公平那我們其實知道從健保制度84年實施以來照理說衛福部已經全面掌握全國民眾的完整的一個健康的資料所以說我們看到這些藝人平常的時候都活蹦亂跳但是到了當兵的時候就突然出現身體不適或是罕見疾病所以本席要請問部長的就是我們的健保資料跟我們體位的審查是否有整合的機制"},{"start":6449.592,"end":6477.267,"text":"目前沒有因為我們中間有一個叫做體檢那那個體檢的話就是根據兵役法是由內政部跟國防部一起把這個體檢完成所以目前沒有這樣子一個整合機制嗎目前還沒有因為整合這個機制還涉及到個資的部分那我們看在申請便跟體位的時候照理說相關單位也就是我們這邊應該是要參考一下這個個人的一個健保的就業紀錄就他平常有沒有這些異常"},{"start":6478.047,"end":6485.813,"text":"或他平常有這樣的一個用藥的紀錄而不是在短期內就有這樣子的一個這個醫療紀錄像這樣的這樣我們我覺得應該是類似就高風險的一個造假是不是應該要有一個專責小組來附身是 謝謝委員的關心委員您講到重點也就是說他平常身體非常健康那為什麼要到服兵役的時候突然身體就有狀況"},{"start":6501.966,"end":6520.603,"text":"那這個部分我們漏洞要來處理那現在也朝著這個機制在發展那相關的這個初檢跟體檢的復檢我是不是請議政司長很快跟委員回應一下好嗎沒關係這個部分我想就後續可能再給辦公室資料因為今天的時間比較短我接下來想請教的是就面對社會對傘兵的不滿因為這一段時間吵得沸沸揚揚所以"},{"start":6524.546,"end":6544.836,"text":"政府有没有什么具体的行动计划要重拾年轻世代对我们这个服兵役的一个信心我想整一个体检制度上面的漏洞我刚刚有跟委员报告过了包括在这个复检或者体检的过程当中是不是有些漏洞我们要补齐那我们也发现到闪兵呢后面有没有有一些是犯罪集团"},{"start":6545.316,"end":6565.571,"text":"甚至包括有医生医生不配合他有怎么办法有出去这样的一个证明对所以我们现在所知道就是包括这一次的这个案例里面有某一些特定的不孝医生其实地检署已经在侦办当中所以目前已经移送法办了就对了我想我们尊重司法单位的调查就问说有没有移送法办吗"},{"start":6565.891,"end":6572.717,"text":"應該會跟委員報告因為剛剛講說已經你們已經主動請地檢署在整這個嗎是已經我們移送了但是他偵查了進度因為這個要非常專業你要看得懂病例表裡面的這些東西必須要跟所以本席在這邊是建議我們內政部應該建立一個健保資料跟體位審查系統的一個串聯機制那由衛福部國防部大家共同審查那我發現有這樣子一個健康不符的這個"},{"start":6595.875,"end":6621.674,"text":"這狀況的時候我們就主動的啟動那個復檢的機制要集體管控這個我們的採檢避免假病例的出現好嗎好謝謝那接下來要請教的是兩位可以請回我接下來要請教的是有關替代役備役部長麻煩你所以我們要請教的是有關替代役備役的一個召集部長可以看到一下這個表就是我們從替代役的備役役來的演訓召集人數從105年"},{"start":6624.144,"end":6646.114,"text":"的1000多人到现在今年去年113年预估是58618人那最后当结训的是5052人我们可以看到为什么在过去这个政府对替代艺的艺男的召集跟延续是如此疏于规划是一直到去年才有这样子的一个"},{"start":6646.81,"end":6670.308,"text":"大規模的演訓召集的活動那是什麼樣的一個狀況因為如果是這樣子的一個大幅度的增加到底是出於災防跟社會任性的考量還是因為兩岸局勢的惡化政府已經在為最壞的狀況做準備報告委員這個是內政委員會要求我們要把被替代役的演訓召集要實務上面來處理所以才會有跳升這麼多"},{"start":6671.007,"end":6693.475,"text":"所以實務商會來處理是怎樣我是不是請易正思跟您補充這個報告我們早為之前的幾屆的委員會都有說我們替代役之前的這個備役召集的人數就一千多人跟國軍差距太多差距太多是希望我們能夠做更大量的一個這個召集的訓練所以大概本來從對啊所以你可以看到那個增加的幅度已經不是一倍兩倍是幾十倍所以如果一樣是你說的這個"},{"start":6700.818,"end":6718.663,"text":"在以前都是因為災防跟社會任性嘛那災防每年都有啊風災地震每年都有啊那但是你這個災防跟社會任性的部分的話就增加到五萬多的這個替代應難所以當然就會讓大家懷疑是不是因為兩岸局勢已經惡化然後大家在為最壞的狀況做準備"},{"start":6720.143,"end":6744.23,"text":"那跟委員報告因為我們除此之外因為我們替代役在112年之後就是因為任務的轉型以往我們替代役都是在政府機關在做所謂的公共事務的輔助性工作跟社會公益服務那後來我們替代役現在轉型要做民防做救災的工作相關的這個部分我想我們都知道但我今天要問的問題就是說因為"},{"start":6746.351,"end":6773.903,"text":"以前是疏於演練現在開始我們有一個演訓召集的比例提高這麼高那我現在要請教部長就是說在這一次的馬太安的這個艷澀湖的潰壩之後內政部首次召開勤務召集直接讓備役替代義男上場救災那剛剛部長有講大概人數大概近百人你們召集120人達到九成那差不多就是九十六九十五九十六大概九成左右請問有多少比例是在過去三年中"},{"start":6774.523,"end":6790.32,"text":"未受过演训的召集我们可能要查明一下我为什么要问这个问题就是说现在已经去参加就是在这一次有将近你说九十几名的这个被疫艺男有多少是在过去三年内没有受过演训召集的"},{"start":6790.871,"end":6798.194,"text":"我要提這個問題的意思就是說如果他們大部分都沒有受過嚴峻召集就馬上要去這個救災的話事實上會存在著安全跟執勤的風險我主要要問的是這個這個部分我們現階段沒有做調查他之前是不是有接受嚴峻召集也就是往後續"},{"start":6810.078,"end":6816.341,"text":"我們後續要做大幅度的給他們做訓練比較多的訓練就是因為他們對 我今天要凸顯這個問題就是說你們去年已經召集了5萬多人嘛照理說應該是有很高一個比例是有做過演訓召集那目前你們沒有這個資料對 我知道那但是就是說會後是不是可以提供給我們那我想要表達的重點就是說"},{"start":6832.85,"end":6860.784,"text":"應該是要讓他們有受過這個演訓召集之後才能夠上場去做救援但是我跟委員報告就是我們在做這個演訓召集的這個人數呢是尊重花蓮縣政府他們去把這些人找出來我的意思是說他們有沒有做過訓練我們再去查明一下再跟委員報告就是我希望未來能夠去做救援的人他都是有做過這些訓練他上場這樣才能夠不管保障他自己的安全也真正能夠救災有有有我們會朝著這方面謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6863.901,"end":6880.529,"text":"謝謝 感謝徐議政委員的質詢他剛才說的 委員說的時候你們要再去辦公室介紹一下對 對 對你們要提供一下我們將李博義委員質詢劉部長跟議政司"},{"start":6891.951,"end":6918.868,"text":"現在部長跟議政司委員好部長其實今天這一題雖然我們在花蓮的時候就在那有做了這個替代役的這些召集的運用那其實就跟一個概念就是防災式的概念那我今天想要舉瑞士跟日本"},{"start":6919.954,"end":6946.482,"text":"兩個國家針對防災或者是國防的這些案例來跟內政部來做一個討論那第一個就今天的主題防災來講日本從2003年來開始就把這個防災式的概念法制化那目前我剛剛也聽了其他委員的槌尋那義政司的回應就是針對我們目前所有的替代役退役之後慢慢累積這些防災式"},{"start":6947.541,"end":6976.211,"text":"所以我在這邊也建議議政司可以有更多積極的方式或者是參考他國的這些方式因為台灣面對非常多的天然災害等等的這一次的花蓮除了義工們我們內政部妥善的可以召集這些替代役可以回來參與救災我想都是非常值得正面再去進一步探討的來 司長你請你回應一下"},{"start":6977.26,"end":7002.806,"text":"稍等再請部長回應另外一個問題謝謝是感謝委員的視角我們防災式的訓練這個我們這個政策我們今年起我們就積極的來推廣所以不只有要有方法我們隨時等內政部提出相關的這些方法出來我們今年所有在成功嶺接受訓練就新的啦要慢慢累積嘛對新的這一年所有的依然都要接受防災式的訓練並且要取得證照就是"},{"start":7003.406,"end":7029.74,"text":"就像今年有一萬三千六百五十人都一定要取得這樣的一個證照這是現役的部分覺得一年多一萬三啊對這個是我們替代役的部分好那其他的方法請你請你來整個部裡面我們部長在積極的推動我們希望能夠達到十萬有關你備役的部分來我請部長部長剛剛有其他委員也講到是要戰爭論嗎我覺得不是啦因為以保二"},{"start":7030.28,"end":7037.474,"text":"我們去年度在審議預算的時候保二總隊警政署保二總隊就被講成說你們買這些反恐器材你們是在"},{"start":7038.751,"end":7065.52,"text":"准备要备战吗我想对于目前战争的形态那针对国家重点设施的这些部分包含水库电厂等等的这些的驻卫的警力必须有相关的这些第一时间的这些防备的这些能力这是加强一些训练而不是要准备战争这不要再这样误导所以我们内政部目前做的这一个事情就是"},{"start":7066.038,"end":7072.93,"text":"召集替代意來是增加台灣防災任何天然災害的這些任性來部長"},{"start":7073.487,"end":7095.733,"text":"是 謝謝剛剛委員有提到所謂的重要關鍵基礎設施現在當然是以寶二為主但是隨著重要的關鍵基礎設施越來越專業化我們除了寶二以外可能地方政府的警察人員也要投入所以這個部分應該跟所謂的什麼要準備戰爭是完全相反就好像說我們國防部有軍人有軍人就是準備要戰爭嗎不是 我們要防衛"},{"start":7098.334,"end":7119.027,"text":"對我們自己國家主權的正常防衛應該有的那不能把所有的工作都放在國軍所以這樣子的一個防衛機制裡面我們對於所謂的後備或是對於所謂的替代役也要做一下防災的訓練那這個防災訓練裡面除了現在面對天然災害之外還有一個重要的功能就是萬一有像譬如說像花蓮縣這樣的大規模"},{"start":7120.888,"end":7149.66,"text":"大規模的天災產生的時候我們要想辦法維持它的正常運作的功能不是大家都跑去救災然後縣政府或是鄉鎮公所就沒有人上班那這個誰來幫忙當然替代役的訓練可以補充一部分的部分所以這個部分恐怕很多人的會產生誤解不是然後也有人提到說你的替代役在成功你受訓的時候也要做打靶但是大家都知道連我們在高中的時候女生也都是要做打靶的訓練"},{"start":7150.74,"end":7180.28,"text":"不是為了因為打靶訓練就表示準備要上戰場我想這個是太廉價對於這個替代役整體制度上面的誤解看到我們任何部會提出來任性兩個字就是說要戰爭的我覺得這件事情我們必須要很清楚的說明清楚包含我從剛剛我舉的這個寶二對於國家重要設施的例子那對於我們這次替代役的召集這些例子來講我覺得我們可以透過這些實例讓社會更清楚知道目前台灣需要什麼"},{"start":7180.92,"end":7190.43,"text":"對 報告委員就是我們的預算也是因為陳義正看到任性兩個字從警政消防每次看到任性就起效就說要打仗那現在是慢慢恢復所以我們義正是很辛苦趕快把這時間補足的訓練量盡量把它補足回來"},{"start":7198.758,"end":7226.477,"text":"那也跟委員補充報告一下除了我們現在在成功領受訓的這些現役替代役的防災室訓練高達接近一萬五千以外我們其他的民力機構包括像NGO到目前為止的已經登記而且拿到證照的是有超過七萬多人其實我在這邊也提醒部長還有司長其實當然這不是司長這邊的業務啦那我提醒部長其實我們出生地方有非常多地方的民力可以使用"},{"start":7227.037,"end":7246.067,"text":"那透過這些名利包含這些不管是疫警疫消或者是民防等等這一些來推動相關的這些防災式的這些訓練那我覺得都是一個可行的方向報告委員我想委員非常清楚了我們民政司已經要補充給所有的村里長"},{"start":7247.568,"end":7269.278,"text":"訓練費用那現在全台灣有四分之一的村里長已經拿到防災式的資格除了村里長之外很多這些疫警疫消我也推我也建議內政部可以研議那個沒有問題只要他們願意把時間衝出來可能他們現在已經都有防災式的資格可能要再做一下那還是一樣就是我們還有防災協作中心未來的區公所會"},{"start":7270.518,"end":7294.324,"text":"分配到有20個到50個是替代役在碰到天然災害的時候會協助區公所就是防災協助中心做必要的專業上面的防災的處理好謝謝最後我針對剛剛部長回應的時候說113年度體檢免疫的比例高達16%我也建議這個跟國防部可以來討論這些相關的標準跟規定謝謝謝謝我們感謝李博義委員執行"},{"start":7300.546,"end":7329.115,"text":"加蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在加鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在加楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在羅明才委員"},{"start":7330.42,"end":7336.683,"text":"羅明財羅明財委員不在我們這裡需申請質詢好感謝主席我們請部長請劉部長部長"},{"start":7351.229,"end":7379.102,"text":"今天谈这个替代艺男我想您一定认同我们替代艺是国家的重要人力资源是他也是兵役制度的一环对兵役制度那每一位艺男的专长与时间我们是不是都该妥善的来运用分成现役替代艺跟备役替代艺那我们现在在现役替代艺上面有关专长的这个分布的部分会有比较好的规划那备役的时候因为太多我们慢慢会把它补足"},{"start":7379.482,"end":7398.149,"text":"好 那除了專長以外呢我想請教我們現在內政部手上有沒有一份清楚明確的替代役人力地圖所謂人力地圖就是在我們全國各縣市不管直轄市或是我們縣轄市這個縣市"},{"start":7401.03,"end":7409.756,"text":"他的分部你們有嗎有沒有這一份我請市長跟您回應一下好 報告委員我們這個部分我們有建置這個替代在全國各地的這個"},{"start":7411.043,"end":7428.955,"text":"這個人眼的配置跟地點我們這個是在結合我們內政部的踢購的這個地圖我們有來做這樣的一個配置你們有完全掌握囉有好那但是因為現在會讓我們感覺你們那現在有數據嗎現在沒有沒有準備嘛你們今天來有沒有那個數據我們目前總數啦你們是總數我現在說那我請教我新竹縣有多少"},{"start":7437.452,"end":7459.916,"text":"我們查一下所以你們都每年每年都有掌握就對了他就跟兵役制度他就跟兵役制度一樣你現在在服兵役或者你是後備我是指替代役是 我的替代役也是兵役制度的一環所以我們應該掌握他在哪個地方不是分配就是有多少人數我們大概會知道"},{"start":7460.236,"end":7479.071,"text":"然后他我指的是他你有多少这个艺男人数但是我现在是说替代艺他有些会配到哪里配到哪里你们也有有有这个资料有好那这个资料有的话那你有没有发现众都会亲偏乡啊"},{"start":7479.963,"end":7503.972,"text":"我們替代役現役的部分有兩個區塊一個區塊就是用申請的那申請的就是依然你要哪裡來申請我們沒辦法掌握所以申請的時候他可以決定地點給他選擇嗎沒有掌握分配嗎我們基本上替代役的分發我們是以戶籍地為原則"},{"start":7505.092,"end":7530.531,"text":"就尽量让他回到家乡里面去那以后被疫他在被疫的训练或者以后被疫的救灾他能够来熟悉所以我们尽量在家乡我们尽量都是让他到回复脊地去服勤因为我们地方上我们有感觉好像一些偏乡地区的长照或者是弱势孩童的照护都没有足够的替代仪是"},{"start":7531.96,"end":7550.432,"text":"怎么样这个部分因为卫福部他们也有提出这个替代业人力的需求那替代业人力的需求基本上是卫福部就他所分配的原额他再去进一步分化到各县市那这个部分我们是尊重卫福部对对但是你手上有掌握嘛"},{"start":7551.192,"end":7579.578,"text":"所以这样就变成说如果我们说长者或是孩童的这种照护所以这就又变成是卫福部的权责因为人脸我们是你们只是把人召集来不是我们人召集完了之后那卫福部每年他会提出他的需求源额经过行政院的核定核定完了之后我们每年就会把这些人数尽可能的都给满足到各部位的人力需求"},{"start":7580.098,"end":7593.497,"text":"那各部会人力需求之后他要分配到哪一个县市哪一个公所就由卫福部来去做决定所以这一个变成又是卫福部的权责对这个分配到服勤地点是由卫福部来决定好"},{"start":7594.471,"end":7608.179,"text":"接著這一塊因為今天應該衛福部沒來沒有今天衛福部沒來我就接著問我們義男他退伍後的就業輔導因為他這"},{"start":7612.441,"end":7627.479,"text":"为国家尽义务嘛那总是会牺牲一点尤其我们又恢复了一年嘛对不对所以是不是让他们怎么样会有一个空窗怎么样可以顺利重返社会这一块有没有任何的就业辅导措施"},{"start":7628.362,"end":7652.58,"text":"我們這個部分我們現階段並沒有去從事這個工作那委員如果有指教的話我們以後也可以盡可能來媒介啦對啦 可以譬如說跟勞動部啊 退府會或是一些相關單位也幫他們弄個就業博覽會因為就本席了解有些人他對他自己的生涯或職涯"},{"start":7653.46,"end":7680.465,"text":"他掌握得很清楚但是因为现在有些很多服役的他们都还年轻所以如果说在可以有一个衔接然后帮他办个就业博览会也不难吧可以来做吗我们会来结合劳动部来配合这个机制我们来运作对对对好不好好那也请部长也支持多督导那再来就是我们对于这种家境清寒的艺男"},{"start":7681.745,"end":7707.85,"text":"這個部分我們是不是有可能特別對他們照顧因為我看到好像他們每個月大概就是7000多塊沒有 這個跟委員報告因為我們現階段我們有所謂的中低收入戶跟低收入戶低收入戶是要來扶替代役中低收入戶是扶常備兵役那他們去服役的時候他們的這個家況我們會給他做生活"},{"start":7710.09,"end":7728.969,"text":"辅助加矿的调查如果符合我们的类类级的这个等级我们就会给他生活辅助那生活辅助就按照他的人口口数里面的多少我们给他给他这个经费的补助那基本上我们是给他6500多块将近7000块没错啦一口"},{"start":7731.251,"end":7737.596,"text":"所以他家人口多你還可以乘以3有3口你可以乘以3他還分甲級跟乙級丙級甲級的話我們就是乘以3"},{"start":7743.157,"end":7765.539,"text":"对这一块我们希望能够来协助这个部分我们之前已经有调整过了一次而且调整的幅度本来3000多块我们就调整到将近7000块我手上的资料最新你从5000多调到是7130我不知道那你的讲法是7130如果它符合规定"},{"start":7765.999,"end":7785.945,"text":"有三口人你可以乘以三給他對 甲級的話我們就是可以乘以三甲級是怎麼樣甲級是他的收入第一最低生活支出標準的百分之十以內那十到七十是一級對好 我們希望這一塊是能夠來協助我們也希望一起的努力但是我們還要跟主計總署來做過好 OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝新委員執行我們現在林卓英委員"},{"start":7797.728,"end":7808.473,"text":"林祖英委員不在我們這裡下令改委員下令改委員下令改委員不在我們這裡羅廷偉委員執行麥克風"},{"start":7824,"end":7842.712,"text":"謝謝主席有請內政部部長委員好也麻煩國防部檢視察檢視察國防部先請問一下部長部長您看一下這圖片您知道這是哪裡嗎答得出來嗎請委員指教這個是西營島西西營島西營島對"},{"start":7852.984,"end":7870.628,"text":"就是大家西營島對大家口中的國之北疆那我為什麼要跟大家這樣分享我想同樣應該都是正常體位的藝男有人散兵免當兵有人在這裡當兵那我想在這裡當兵的藝男"},{"start":7871.209,"end":7899.755,"text":"大概100多天才能回台湾一次我想请问一下内政部部长请问目前掌握一事涉及妨碍兵役的异难或是案件总数大概是多少报告委员我们移送到地检跟县市地方政府的是133件除了目前已知的这些方式如高血压还有没有发现其他的伪造体位或证明的一个模式方便透露吗"},{"start":7902.275,"end":7922.98,"text":"是這樣子啦我們不做個案上面的跟委員報告一下檢舉出來的部分包括有僵直性脊椎炎精神疾病還有胸果畸形應該是所謂的氣胸案氣胸僵直性脊椎炎精神疾病高血壓有多起嗎"},{"start":7927.574,"end":7954.544,"text":"高血壓相當多相當多嘛所以就是我們這樣的模式偽造的體位啊模式大概明確的可以抓到是這幾個那體重呢應該還好吧過重是吧BMI過重這個部分請說那個我們有關你增重的部分因為他是增重嘛所以在檢查上他如果要蓄意的增重"},{"start":7955.579,"end":7973.752,"text":"這個部分是不是涉及逃避兵役我們會來再請跟檢調單位來做我記得後續還會追蹤他的體重對不對但是有的可能就一去就不復返那造成國人的健康也發生問題所以我們這一次在體位區分標準修正的時候要把BMI值"},{"start":7974.412,"end":8001.015,"text":"做大幅度的提升大幅度的提升邀請他進來然後一起來健康來訓練國防如果要達到免疫的話要BMI只要達到45這是相當重的問題也就是說他完全用症狀的方式要達到免疫幾乎不可能除非他有好 這就是我要問的那除了這一個部分BMI內政部現在還有計畫要修訂或加嚴的然後來防止這一類的情形還有沒有其他的"},{"start":8001.311,"end":8028.565,"text":"那血壓當然是我們的重中之重血壓要怎麼去防範血壓的部分當然我們如果是純粹的血壓以往是免疫體位那我們現在必須要到血壓必須要達到他的心臟或者是器官有食指的病變才可以達到免疫體位這是他的我們的標準在定定的時候的內容所以這個部分也會大幅度的修動還有技術上比如說要量血壓我們都要做住院檢查"},{"start":8028.945,"end":8054.545,"text":"以往是勢必是需要才住院檢查現在是規定一定要住院檢查長期的24小時的關注所以我們不管是在標準的制定或者是在檢查的這個制度上的規範我們都從嚴來訂定這個部分好那現在對於已經確認涉及妨礙兵役的這些異難在法律責任之外內政部將如何處理他們的役期或者是服役的義務"},{"start":8056.91,"end":8078.022,"text":"這個部分剛才有特別提到有需要補充嗎有需要補服兵役嗎36歲以內是一定要回來如果說 先前我們這一次在這一波的調查當中有些藝人就發現到他自己也造假了他也主動來坦承了那坦承我們之後我們就跟縣市政府協調就恢復判他原來的地位"},{"start":8079.282,"end":8104.284,"text":"儘速把它徵集入院就補復兵役嘛36歲以後呢37歲以後因為他是除役了那除役這個部分是不是還要再來補要來補兵役這個也有立法委員提出來希望這個部分即使他是37歲以後也希望在機制上能不能再讓他回來機制我想大家對於這個兵役的公平性大家有所質疑我想內政部要有具體的措施來維護"},{"start":8105.405,"end":8130.618,"text":"我們所有男性服兵役這樣子的公平我昨天受訪的時候也表示鼓勵藝人來宣導服役那服役是光榮的那我們也希望37歲以後的這些到底是要回來補服兵役還是他現有的狀況他可能是知名藝人能不能夠幫忙協助內政部國防部來做相對應的一個宣導增加我們的一個形象"},{"start":8131.458,"end":8155.948,"text":"這部分我覺得你們也可以研擬嘛對不對你覺得呢類似像社會藝這樣子用什麼樣的方式我可以具體去研究當然他們有藝人的光環你能不能認為說他是一個很好的樣板如果他不服兵役或者是他不能不服兵役的時候這個藝人他如果是一個知名藝人他甚至是有一個正面的能夠帶動到整體的形象"},{"start":8157.284,"end":8186.09,"text":"内政部是不是应该运用一下我想是这样子啊第一个他如果已经有移送法办那最后那个地检署或者是法院要做什么样子的一个这个处分或是裁决我们当然就尊重那结束之后他如果愿意来帮忙这个推动兵役的话我们当然会欢迎可是这个会变成负面的形象变成正面形象的过程当中一般社会大众能不能接受还是他本来就是很健康的去服兵役改过自新也是一个非常好的一个议题啊"},{"start":8186.93,"end":8211.464,"text":"怎麼會是完全就是負面而且畢竟有些人是得過很多的獎項我想在演藝上的事業不可否認它是的確有它的一個規模但是在這樣狀況下我覺得能夠帶動到整體的年輕人去學習後面能夠好好的來服兵役就是知錯能改或者是好好的來服兵役或者是藉此發現其實當兵是很快樂的我跟你講我當兵"},{"start":8213.48,"end":8228.592,"text":"最後10秒我當兵的時候是看那個新兵日記被那個熱血跟那個快樂 歡樂給騙進去的啦最後是真的很艱難啦但是我認為這個文化產業應該跟上以上 謝謝謝謝我們感謝羅天惟委員資訊"},{"start":8237.762,"end":8262.629,"text":"我們定期發言的委員主領部在場以外全都發言完畢這項結束委員臨時應提出書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報書面執行及被逮捕的部分請相關單位一星期來依書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":8266.465,"end":8269.467,"text":"這次修正條文簽署會同相關單位研議是妥適之修正條文內容"},{"start":8282.611,"end":8300.795,"text":"討論屬於蘇磊磊的議案定期繼續審查本會會議到現在結束現在散會 感謝大家 大家辛苦 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"164640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da3781052068d231adc0c14dc0092bf1ba2a1a38650e8bc9db43de59c930387d485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:09:42 - 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請下黃倍提名人"},{"start":16.156,"end":37.343,"text":"黃碧婷議員你好我看在你的回覆及相關的說明你對於媒體的意見就是說媒體應該受到公平的規範跟相關的秩序但是我一直沒看到說你有明確的這一種要將OTT的平台全面的納入監管以及相關的義務來請你簡單說明一下"},{"start":40.498,"end":63.33,"text":"最主要是因為我覺得我在看到OTT的表現的時候我對於境外的OTT我一直是非常的關注我希望它不要影響到台灣整個產業的自主但是我覺得這幾年我們看到三大電信業者的一些OTT平台有在提升改善所以因此它納管的過程當中"},{"start":65.251,"end":80.281,"text":"我會希望他能夠是就像剛剛跟報告的就是我希望境內境外要公平一致我不希望說我們立了一個法是利益良善結果最後守法的反而是規範了我們自己然後境外的"},{"start":81.101,"end":107.58,"text":"就都逃逸我覺得這個會對我們自己的業者不公平這是我比較擔心的對 這樣的擔心我覺得我們必須要去面對就是說的確還是有許多的OTT網路串流平台其實它在台灣的是屬於境外的平台那它並沒有被納入傳統的這一種廣電的監理架構那其實我們看國際上我看"},{"start":108.4,"end":121.119,"text":"有些國家他其實已經規定了他們必須要負擔一定比例的本地內容有有那或者是設立在地的辦公室甚至"},{"start":122.488,"end":151.3,"text":"為了在地文化的發展他們也設置了文化發展會這在韓國或是歐洲都有這樣的一個例子那他們這種文化發展會就是主要他們是要強調這種文化的主權跟內容的多元那其實我看你在答覆中你一直強調說媒體要受公平的規範及相關的這種制度化的一個治理"},{"start":152.04,"end":170.974,"text":"那對OTT平台的監理的這樣的一個措辭比較含糊一點那我希望你能夠更具體的說明你是否支持將境外OTT的平台納入台灣的傳播的監理框架"},{"start":172.028,"end":195.624,"text":"我覺得可以納入一個部分當然我們希望雖然境外的他們的分級跟我們有一些差距但是還是要有標示那這個部分我們可能需要做一些處理那我更具體的請教你你認為在地化責任應該具備怎樣的基本義務具體的義務有一個行銷人員而已他需要在這當中有團隊還有就是"},{"start":196.545,"end":219.864,"text":"境外的OTT平台它需要有一定的屬於台灣自己在地的內容其實說實話在2017年當然 你在內容介入方面或者是要設立集合的窗口甚至是本土內容的一個比例甚至是資訊介入的責任這都是必須要去做面對那我請教一下黃北提名你具體的看法是什麼呢"},{"start":220.922,"end":239.955,"text":"具體的看法就是我剛剛要講的是我們在2017年AIT有找我們大家一起去跟Netflix的副總裁來台灣他那時候想要大型推Netflix那時候我們的一致的一個要求就是那你Netflix不能只播外內容你要有台灣的節目"},{"start":240.876,"end":267.241,"text":"是我覺得這個部分就是在地化的責任還有就是設立辦事處然後需要跟台灣政府這當中台灣的流量是很大的需要納稅但是這個納稅我希望它不要轉嫁到我們自己台灣的消費者因為現在我們發現在Meta這一塊它是轉嫁到台灣的消費者這個部分我覺得對台灣來講消費者是權益受損"},{"start":268.021,"end":294.211,"text":"所以我就會覺得在立法的過程我們要更細緻對 像這種串流平台它要面對的在地化的一個責任也是NCC未來要面對的一個嚴肅的課題那我再請教一下黃倍提名人你也指出這種媒體使用AI生成新聞的內容那應該是要以透明揭露它是一個基本的原則"},{"start":295.322,"end":312.941,"text":"那業者應該要自律的自律來建立他相關的審核機制避免讓AI傷害這種公共的信任但是我們要具體去了解他們相關AI新聞的生成的過程內容以及相關的資訊"},{"start":314.222,"end":337.13,"text":"相關的業者通常是以這種這是他們各公司的商業機密為理由不願意來做透露那其實我們更要面對的是一個更嚴肅的議題就是說台灣目前的確是沒有建立具有法律強制力的一個AI內容的標示"},{"start":337.87,"end":366.355,"text":"或是审核的一个制度多数的媒体还是号称要依赖内部的自律跟指引而不是外部的一个具体的规范其实媒体我想黄碧提米也应该很清楚现在很多的媒体很多的新闻已经使用AI撰稿或者是AI的合成主播或者是AI的辅助剪辑跟影像的生成"},{"start":368.695,"end":388.585,"text":"很多委員都一再的請教就是說觀眾無法知道我們看的新聞是不是是AI所產生的其實你在過去你也提到過你在淘寶中有說明這種透明的揭露或者是人工審核的原則"},{"start":390.201,"end":407.552,"text":"那我更進一步請教你你是否認為說在廣電法或者是未廣法或相關的傳播法當中來增進AI生成新聞或者是內容必須公開標示的一個法律的義務來請黃貝提名的人說明一下"},{"start":408.072,"end":428.986,"text":"是我覺得他在進程目前是在推動自律然後當案例重複出現是很多風險的時候這個時候他律跟法律就要進來因為我們剛剛有談到就是台灣在整個數位匯流的過程網路跟頻道的管制其實是差距很大我們希望要有公平正義"},{"start":429.966,"end":442.223,"text":"你現在說媒體的智力你認為目前智力的狀況如何是否符合民眾知道這種新聞是否是AI所生成的這樣一個基本的原則"},{"start":442.91,"end":466.958,"text":"好 目前我們有要求在整點播出新聞需要透明化那他要查證還有就是不要侵權嘛因為有些是他人的肖像權他用AI生成也是蠻奇怪的那另外就是在節目的部分我覺得如果他已經把AI當成一個製作團隊的話那他在節目後面的字幕他需要排出來說他哪些部分是使用AI生成的好 謝謝貝提米娜"}]}},{"id":"16976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16976","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd8a46bec1ad1976d3222f6d0e83bf318a0aa126c40303dc2746dcde4980f371ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"4.羅被提名人慧雯-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-22T12:03:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T15:17:00+08:00","duration":11614,"影片長度":"03:13:34","委員發言時間":"12:03:26 - 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繼續開會我們接著要進行被提名的羅惠文女士說明與答選現在請被提名的羅惠文女士說明"},{"start":5354.949,"end":5374.363,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生各位媒體先進大家好我是世新大學傳播管理系助理教授羅惠文今天非常榮幸的被行政院長提名為NCC委員能站在這裡向大家報告"},{"start":5375.183,"end":5391.839,"text":"接下來就讓我簡單的介紹一下我為什麼會接受這個提名在不久之前我鄉下的大伯父九十歲的大伯父他舉行了一個他的生日的宴會"},{"start":5393.36,"end":5421.589,"text":"在那裡我看到了一個阿公他問我我是什麼工作我說我在大學教書他聽了之後就像見到救星一樣的抓著我的手說哇 我終於找到人可以請教問題了他說他有一個孫子自從給他手機之後他就把自己關在他的門裡連吃飯都不出來跟家人吃"},{"start":5423.169,"end":5428.576,"text":"那整天就在這個房間裡面他說怎麼辦啊都不跟我說話耶"},{"start":5431.141,"end":5458.69,"text":"我看到那個阿公憂慮的神情就想到是不是我們台灣也有上百萬的阿公阿嬤爸爸媽媽跟這位阿公一樣這麼憂心看到自己的孩子沉迷於手機或網路不知道他學習怎麼樣不知道他跟家人交流的情況怎麼樣交友的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":5461.041,"end":5478.705,"text":"於是我在被徵詢NCC委員的時候我想到的這個阿公我想如果我能夠進入NCC服務我一定要改善這些問題想出適當的政策"},{"start":5481.112,"end":5508.958,"text":"我在世新大學的新聞傳播學院教書從我教書以來呢一直都會有學生是抱著新聞工作的理想憧憬和熱情進到我們的新聞傳播學院但當他們畢業呢不久之後呢在有時候是在路上偶遇有時候是回到學校找我"},{"start":5510.714,"end":5521.357,"text":"他們會跟我說的是滿滿的失望因為他們不知道現在的環境不能讓他們實現新聞自由和新聞專業當我被徵詢NCC委員這個工作的時候我想到的是我的這些學生"},{"start":5534.133,"end":5544.296,"text":"我希望能夠進入NCC服務能夠恢復新聞該有的專業以及新聞人媒體人的尊嚴"},{"start":5546.946,"end":5574.155,"text":"在我們的周遭相信大家都有朋友特別是高齡者長者有網路詐騙的經驗他們可能是出於好心可能是對於科技的不熟悉所以常常會成為網路詐騙的對象當我在被徵詢NCC委員這個工作的時候我想到的就是這些高齡者這些長者"},{"start":5577.31,"end":5588.111,"text":"如果我能夠進入NCC服務我希望能夠幫助他們幫助他們守護他們的財產守護他們的生命的安全"},{"start":5589.827,"end":5616.939,"text":"以上就是我想進入NCC服務的起心動念我希望呢我們的NCC的政策是一個以人為本的政策我們能夠幫助這些該被幫助的人我們也希望我也希望我如果有機會進入到NCC呢我也會時時刻刻的提醒我自己這些真實的人才是我們真正要關懷的對象"},{"start":5619.286,"end":5628.927,"text":"接下來我就簡單介紹一下我的學經歷我是台灣大學經濟系畢業政治大學新聞研究所碩士"},{"start":5630.612,"end":5650.051,"text":"日本京都大學經濟學博士我大學階段呢剛好是台灣社會運動風起雲湧的年代那個時候只有三家電視台可以看而電視新聞的報導呢往往就跟我去參加的社會運動的現場的真實是不一樣的"},{"start":5651.152,"end":5662.145,"text":"因此我在大學階段就很想要研究新聞的產制想要了解為什麼我們只有三家電視台我想要研究電視的市場的結構傳播產業的結構"},{"start":5666.169,"end":5695.185,"text":"後來我就進入了政治大學新聞研究所讀碩士那我在碩士階段主要使用的是媒體經濟學的方法去研究有限電視市場的競爭和經營管理那我的碩士論文呢就從那時候最流行的日本台開始探討起那回顧了台灣的日本電影的政策還有錄影帶還有日本電視節目的流通的情況"},{"start":5698.485,"end":5708.9,"text":"也就是說呢 我從念書時期到現在呢我的核心關懷呢 就是管制國家能不能管 要怎麼管"},{"start":5710.902,"end":5734.03,"text":"在碩士畢業以後我考上日本台灣交流協會獎學金選擇日本諾貝爾獎得主最多的京都大學繼續深造研讀產業經濟學和地方經濟學我以放送產業和放送政策作為我主要的研究領域那我的博士論文呢最後是聚焦在台灣電視產業發展過程中的國家和資本的關係"},{"start":5740.114,"end":5764.171,"text":"那回到台灣之後呢我先在公共電視擔任研究員研究的是各國的公共媒體的課題那也參與過很多的國際交流的活動那我後來進入了學界那考量到我的雙專長的特性我最後選擇的是本校的傳播管理系那研究重心還是在"},{"start":5764.992,"end":5783.822,"text":"NHK 公共媒體日本放送產業還有影視產業傳播政策那我也特別關注在全球化時代下本國影視產業的發展那2016年起呢我是第六屆的公共電視的董事"},{"start":5785.023,"end":5795.784,"text":"在這個期間我推動了東南亞語新聞剛好公視的東南亞語新聞才剛得到卓越新聞獎的社會公器獎"},{"start":5797.014,"end":5814.691,"text":"我在公共電視有將近六年的董事經驗它讓我對於傳統媒體受到的數位化衝擊有更深的體認那我也因為擔任公視的新聞諮詢委員會的召集人推動公視新聞部的數位轉型"},{"start":5818.475,"end":5828.521,"text":"更加了解到在這個數位平台載製的生態中傳統媒體的生存和轉型是非常非常不容易的"},{"start":5829.542,"end":5848.091,"text":"那除了實際參與到媒體的運作之外呢這十年來我也參與了很多的NCC的委託研究案因此對於NCC的近年來的政策的方向還有研擬法案的重點 規管的狀況都有一定程度的掌握"},{"start":5849.371,"end":5862.864,"text":"例如在兩三年前我擔任一個NCC委託的新聞媒體溢價法的研究案的共同主持人那帶領了產業調查團隊深入研究台灣各個新聞台的經營問題"},{"start":5864.605,"end":5889.934,"text":"深刻感受到我們台灣現在的新聞產業對跨國數位平台的依賴以及平台對於新聞生態的破壞在演算法和流量智商的邏輯下我們台灣的新聞的品質已經被犧牲了被破壞了這已經構成台灣民主的最大的問題那以上就是我個人簡單的介紹謝謝大家"},{"start":5898.683,"end":5926.13,"text":"好被提名人羅惠文女士說明完畢現在請登記第一位本院委員洪孟凱召委發言其他在場人士電話聲音請小聲一點好感謝主席那我們請羅被提名人請羅被提名人"},{"start":5931.775,"end":5932.681,"text":"好 被提名了好"},{"start":5934.699,"end":5963.36,"text":"來 我想您應該知道本席要問什麼不過本席問的問題更因為您是在去年4月30號陳建仁院長就已經提名您來擔任NCC委員是不是是的因為12月的時候我們在三讀通過相關的法令修正之後現任的卓榮泰院長又要再重新提NCC的委員請教什麼時候卓院長才跟您來徵詢希望您擔任NCC委員"},{"start":5965.197,"end":5992.277,"text":"我時間滿早的去年可能11月多去年11月多對所以您是比其他三位都早其他三位讓我們知道的是今年的5月有人說5月2號有人說5月5號那您是去年11月多就被徵詢卓院長卓院長親自跟您溝通是的好 溝通那時候就希望您擔任NCC委員您也就在11月的時候就答應了"},{"start":5995.546,"end":6019.602,"text":"我答應應該是是稍稍微有一點時間但是我後來有答應沒有錯稍微有一點時間是多久這種記得住是去年今年去年還是去年去年年底真相大白了我想今天四位NCC的被提名人來到國會殿堂如果我們都假設他是屬實的講話"},{"start":6022.017,"end":6045.785,"text":"主委被提名5月5號徵詢副主委5月5號被徵詢今天上午黃委員說是5月2號被徵詢羅委員是去年11月被徵詢都答應了那到7月31號行政院才送出名單是為什麼羅委員你會不會心裡會覺得訝異奇怪"},{"start":6048.325,"end":6069.773,"text":"你明明就去年11月就已經答應了那為什麼我們外界一直在講是說NCC的委員還沒有出來那您也選在那邊如果說我是一個這個員工被一個公司面試都說已經要錄取我了結果奇怪怎麼這個這個安保都還沒有發出你有沒有再詢問一下什麼理由"},{"start":6070.865,"end":6098.812,"text":"沒有就等嘛那就只有等到行政院長7月31才送出來但行政院長講的是說有人有職業考量所以假設這四位委員都沒有說謊那說謊只有一個人啊卓榮泰院長國家可以這樣子玩嗎國家的制度可以這樣搞嗎行政院在7月31以前到底在忙什麼"},{"start":6101.428,"end":6118.197,"text":"我只有一個答案我想大家心目中都有一個答案叫三個字大罷免七三一以前如果行政院沒有再搞大罷免的話早就這批名單五月就可以送出來了我們也可以好好的來針對問題來處理問題了羅委員提名人您同意嗎來請教一下您之前有提過"},{"start":6129.56,"end":6153.776,"text":"新聞自由可以吃嗎本席看了一下這是一篇文章您洋洋灑灑灑的寫了一兩千字的文章標題就是新聞自由能吃嗎問號您到現在還是堅持這樣的一個態度嗎我那篇文章的主旨呢本席也看了把你那兩千兩三千字的文章都給看完了"},{"start":6155.753,"end":6184.515,"text":"對我那篇文章的主旨就是在解釋何謂新聞自由不能無限上綱的新聞自由是不是那新聞自由誰認定是新聞立場還是新聞自由兩者不同對吧就是說你有言論自由你即便你講的一百句我不重聽的話你的言論自由是我不能掐著你的脖子讓你避準但我可以表達說你講的我都不接受"},{"start":6187.338,"end":6208.329,"text":"我那篇文章的主旨主要是在談新聞自由並不是媒體老闆的自由新聞自由不是媒體老闆的自由但不管怎麼樣你今天可以用新聞自由的名義你今天可以用撤照的名義然後到最後把一家新聞海關掉嗎即便他有100個你覺得是說他不中聽的話你認同"},{"start":6210.211,"end":6231.29,"text":"行政機關有權利可以因為撤照的關係因為他手握省照的一個權利所以說一個新聞台就這樣子被結束了他從此發生不了了他的意見從此無法表達了他的媒體人裡面的記者裡面的從業人員從此沒有辦法再跑新聞了你認同嗎"},{"start":6234.284,"end":6249.237,"text":"我還是主張新聞自由最重要的是保障新聞工作者的自由新聞工作者的自由是包含他的所以中天新聞台有哪一個記者有出來講說他們有被綁架嗎"},{"start":6251.311,"end":6264.905,"text":"中天新聞台到目前為止有哪一個記者哪一個主播哪一個新聞媒體人員有跳出來講說我被綁架了我寫了我沒有自由我在新聞工作的時候我不是寫我的意思的"},{"start":6268.188,"end":6284.583,"text":"那如果沒有的話你怎麼能夠用你那時候還不是委員你那時候也我今天早上也問另外一位提名人提名人講是說因為他不是委員所以他沒有看到全貌所以他沒有辦法判斷但他講了那是中華民國新聞史上很特別的案例"},{"start":6286.124,"end":6311.052,"text":"那您現在您也不是委員在當時所以你也不清楚說那個審案的過程你一個外人可能你比其他人更了解新聞的一個脈絡但是你一個外人沒有看到全貌而也沒有任何一個記者跳出來講說我被綁架了我寫的不是我的我不是我的自由去寫的新聞那我們是應該要尊重那個記者他的新聞專業從業人員的專業他寫出來的新聞那你憑什麼說那個是"},{"start":6315.874,"end":6335.155,"text":"沒有新聞自由的新聞沉默無語 啞口無言無法回答我不是無法回答"},{"start":6336.041,"end":6350.851,"text":"因為委員剛剛的提問裡頭它有很多的層次包含的第一個是講NCC的裁罰和NCC的決策就是有沒有無線上綱到可以去關一家新聞台嗎"},{"start":6351.946,"end":6372.674,"text":"然後第二個問題是他都沒有新聞工作者出來申冤那第二個問題我沒有辦法回應那但是第一個問題你有看到嗎你有任何的證據顯示是說中天新聞台他們所做的新聞是被綁架的新聞是沒有新聞自由的新聞"},{"start":6375.329,"end":6403.192,"text":"這個在當時我蒐集資料的過程裡面還有我採訪的過程裡面確實是有聽到的妳採訪的過程是的因為我長期研究台灣的傳播產業那我也採訪過一些新聞工作者庭銘仁我來看我來跟您講一下比較客觀的數字現在有已經有這個法院裁決也已經有二十幾連敗的一個部分了那如果說未來真的"},{"start":6404.642,"end":6427.25,"text":"法院司法也判定是說當時的這個所謂的關台撤照的一個狀況其實是沒有不符合這個比例原則的話那你認不認為這個撤銷關台處分應該要做或說如果說依法而這個媒體他提出了相關的一個行政救濟的話那你覺得未來應該要怎麼面對"},{"start":6429.346,"end":6442.231,"text":"這個部分當然就是尊重最後的司法判決的結果那如果說最後確實是如此咧那當然就是那是不是就是侵犯了新聞自由往下走那是不是就侵犯了新聞自由"},{"start":6442.694,"end":6470.041,"text":"但我目前所看到的相關的文件並沒有直接可以去回應委員所說的新聞自由的這個部分因為事實上也不是二十六連敗所以你還在堅持你的新聞自由能吃嗎這樣的言論我只最後確認一下是的好 謝謝了解了謝謝貝提名人好 謝謝侯文凱召委發言完畢"},{"start":6471.685,"end":6493.542,"text":"現在請林國成委員發言謝謝召委 請我們羅提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":6501.831,"end":6525.055,"text":"好羅貝提名人剛才我還是聆聽你的高見第一個我要聽聽你對於NCC委員他要用什麼態度去做他的NCC委員然後NCC委員他到底主要工作有哪兩項可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":6527.987,"end":6552.817,"text":"NCC委員最重要的就是他必須是獨立行使職權依據專業還有呢要執行什麼工作執行的是 掌理的是跟通訊傳播事業相關的工作 簡單二要 第一個身為NCC委員一定要客觀中立沒有錯吧"},{"start":6554.346,"end":6569.602,"text":"第二他要做的工作就是監督跟管理兩者所以這個態度就會跟他的工作有所連關所以在這裡我要特別提醒你NCC委員"},{"start":6570.956,"end":6592.437,"text":"不是用任何喜好應該這兩個原則一個就是客觀一個就是中立另外一個他要執行的就是監督跟管理這兩項業務所以你如果有客觀的立場中立的立場當然做出來就會不一樣這個我特別提醒你"},{"start":6593.078,"end":6608.197,"text":"好 那個因為我本來對這個你講這個新聞自由可不可以做幫助這一點我本來也不以為然那當然因為你是寫者專家出身你對於你自己的言論"},{"start":6609.338,"end":6625.998,"text":"那當然我們還是尊重可是我特別要跟你強調你可以不可以告訴我你的認為新聞自由能吃嗎你這個態度主要你可以舉例"},{"start":6627.639,"end":6643.165,"text":"為什麼會讓你有這種感覺可以不可以告訴我有實際發生的例子讓你有這個學有專長而來投書去做這件事可以簡要告訴我嗎"},{"start":6644.707,"end":6660.224,"text":"好的 謝謝委員的提問關於我這篇文章呢好像是在這個國會殿堂裡頭有過一些討論我也覺得很榮幸因為它就是妳這個是投書嘛對 它是一篇小小的文章"},{"start":6660.825,"end":6680.532,"text":"那我現在去看那個點閱率還是滿低的但是大家這麼看重這篇文章我覺得是非常的好因為我其實這篇文章的標題呢就用的是那個時候已經是五六年前了沒有啦我不要談這個文章來 羅貝提名人我要的就是說你為什麼會有這種"},{"start":6682.674,"end":6699.056,"text":"親身體驗捷的新聞不自由或自由的有感而發寫出這個我要的是這個答案是的…因為那個時候大家對於中天的新聞自由能不能夠無限上綱有一個很大的討論"},{"start":6700.257,"end":6729.144,"text":"那我作為一個傳播學者通常在這種有爭議事件發生的時候我覺得作為一個學者就是有必要來說明這個學理上的ABC是什麼所以什麼什麼能吃嗎這個我們來尊重我們尊重你來這裡我兩個問題我請問一下談到中天你們也直接批評中天的老闆干涉新聞自由請問有事實根據嗎"},{"start":6731.17,"end":6756.49,"text":"是的在那個時候是有在中天的換照的公聽會上那就已經有你有參與嗎我沒有因為我那時候只是一般的學者所以在那邊我們有看到那不然你怎麼當機立斷也批評人家老闆他干涉新聞自由好 另外一個你認為現在"},{"start":6759.068,"end":6763.038,"text":"綠色媒體老闆有沒有干涉媒體 有沒有"},{"start":6765.108,"end":6791.525,"text":"這個部分我不清楚你不清楚好其實我對你的評價當然專業無庸置疑我們當然是尊重另外一個你兩次被提名為NCC委員這是一個少見的奇案我的看法第一個你的專業受肯定第二個你立設思想"},{"start":6793.223,"end":6818.468,"text":"是絕對讓執政當局百分之百相信請問這兩者之間你認為是什麼一是專業受執政肯定二就是你立設思想跟他們很接近甚至於很超前所以他才兩次的提名你認為你是屬於哪一種"},{"start":6820.586,"end":6842.261,"text":"我因為不是行政院長本人所以我的發言也只能夠也只能夠是順著委員的提問那我做一點猜測因為第一個我跟民進黨沒有淵源所以如果說我是綠色思想那個連我自己都找不到證據了"},{"start":6843.562,"end":6870.471,"text":"但是在新聞專業方面我確實是如果以這十年的研究來說我這十年來做的都是和NCC相關的題目那你看起來還是專業取勝啦專業取勝並非是綠色思想而被肯定啦你的話就是這樣嘛那也沒有關係這個行政院長的權利我們當然充分會尊重他另外一個"},{"start":6871.371,"end":6893.407,"text":"你跟靜電視的關係密切你也當他們的這些主任委員也就是他們智利倫理主任委員你認為你當過他們的主任委員請問一下靜電視風波不斷事端連連請問你認為你這個"},{"start":6897.91,"end":6923.819,"text":"禁電視的自立新聞自立委員會的主任委員你認為你禁止或者應該要怎麼做其實倫理委員會或說自立倫理委員會呢它是一個NCC要求的每一個有自立新聞的電視台都應該要建立建制的自立機制我時間也差不多因為我一向"},{"start":6924.699,"end":6939.691,"text":"一樣其實我的問題只是把問題凸顯出來我並不是很尖銳的問題事實上我問了你確實是進電視裡面的倫理的主任委員我不是裡面我不是職員不是員工"},{"start":6940.952,"end":6967.793,"text":"我是外部專家的身份對 你外部專家等於我是代表台灣的公民社會去監督他們所以我問你的意思就是禁電視事端連連以及對它評價不一你有什麼感覺我跟大家一樣作為公民社會的一份子我們就是繼續監督下去好 謝謝"},{"start":6980.916,"end":6993.694,"text":"好 林國成執行完畢 現在請李坤澤召委執行謝謝林國成委員請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":7005.098,"end":7032.488,"text":"好謝謝羅貝提名人來江東委員會經過這樣的一個江東委員會及教育文化委員會及所有委員的這樣的一個詢答以及說明是一個重要的過程不管結果是如何都是要來跟社會跟委員具體的說明相關的政策及想法那我來請教一下羅貝提名人有關於"},{"start":7033.848,"end":7050.7,"text":"在過去你對新聞製播的這樣的一個過程現在出現了大量的AI生成的這樣一個文本跟影響那我看你的看法好像是以自律為優先然後法規補充為原則"},{"start":7051.801,"end":7068.162,"text":"那广电媒体应该先进行内部的规范做好事实的查核资料的保护那实际上我们看这个多数的媒体他的自律委员会人力是不足的"},{"start":7069.244,"end":7085.31,"text":"而且資訊也沒有公開那其實社會上很多人批評這些自律委員會好像形同虛設啦當然每個媒體的程度不一樣那你支持這樣的一個自律跟他律並行"},{"start":7086.03,"end":7106.121,"text":"但是實務上大多數的這樣的一個媒體的資歷委員會人力不足跟資訊未公開使得多數的這樣的一個媒體的資歷委員會其實沒有辦法發揮它的監督的功能你認為NCC在這樣一個過程可以扮演怎樣的角色呢來 請說明"},{"start":7108.561,"end":7121.768,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問呃 誠如剛剛呃 李委員所 李昭薇所說的現在的自律機制呢好像沒有像我們這個在當初構思的時候好 發揮得這麼的好"},{"start":7123.769,"end":7146.056,"text":"那我覺得有一大部分的原因就是因為社會大眾對於自律這件事情還不太了解比如說他自律要能夠成立呢他要有民眾的申訴民眾要感覺到這件事情呢比如說他在看到假新聞或者他看到了有這個侵犯兒少權益的新聞他覺得不妥"},{"start":7146.556,"end":7171.344,"text":"他必須要去申訴那各個新聞台的自律機制通常都是在做的就是民眾的申訴的處理所以第一個就是以NCC的立場呢我們會加強宣導 宣導民眾申訴還有民眾要反應 民眾要檢舉那第二個呢也是回應剛剛的林國成委員的提問"},{"start":7172.384,"end":7187.016,"text":"因為他質疑我做這個自律禁電視的自律委員會然後就認為說一個學者去做這個電視台的自律委員會就貼了標籤說那我就是禁的人如果我們的"},{"start":7187.917,"end":7203.477,"text":"連我們的國會議員對於或者是我們的社會大眾會有這樣的誤解的話它會讓很多想要加入自律機制把自己的專業提供給電視台的傳播學者也好或其他領域的學者也好"},{"start":7204.257,"end":7226.443,"text":"會讓大家更卻步不前認為說我只要幫這個機構或者是幫這個電視台做這個自律委員會我就被認為是要幫他們護航幫他們背書所以這個觀念的釐清是非常重要的我們不應該把自律委員就等同於那個電視台"},{"start":7227.483,"end":7250.905,"text":"而我們一般的民眾對於你的權益被侵犯的時候你也應該要勇敢你要勇敢地站出來好 勇敢是有感覺另外勇敢就是有勇氣你要有勇氣地站出來告訴這個電視台好 告訴這個媒體你不能夠這樣做我想最重要的就是我們第一步可以從這個部分做起"},{"start":7251.55,"end":7275.548,"text":"是的 因為我覺得我們對於媒體的這樣的一個監督傳播的內容其實是要多元的聲音是要公民的參與來作為監督這種傳播的內容最主要它就是要廣大多元的聲音那其實我看NCC的這樣的一個頻道的評鑑"},{"start":7276.989,"end":7297.507,"text":"还是偏重在技术跟法尊缺乏多元的声音以及性别平衡的这样的一个指标其实就是需要有外部的学者公民团体的参与如果说缺乏这种学者专家"},{"start":7298.632,"end":7325.234,"text":"公民團體這種外部多元的聲音參與的話我認為這種評鑑會失去 失焦啊它變成只是一種程序而非實質的多元那你過去也提過說要保障多元的聲音能夠發聲那NCC啊我認為它目前的評鑑還是有點偏於形式的這樣的一個指標那"},{"start":7326.584,"end":7336.823,"text":"我是要請教你你認為在評鑑制度中要納入多元性與平衡性的這樣的一個量化的項目來請說明一下"},{"start":7337.571,"end":7360.619,"text":"好 謝謝委員剛剛委員提到了一個很重要的觀點就是多元性包括我們的前一個問題是在講自律機制其實自律的委員如果能夠多元也是一件很好的事情那評鑑的部分同樣也是我認同委員所說的我們應該要增加多元性的指標在裡面"},{"start":7361.019,"end":7383.881,"text":"就像要邀請公民團體以及學者專家來參加這種相關的這樣一個評鑑的項目嗎是好最後我再請教說對於防制假訊息應該由政府跟民間來共同防範以及三律共管這是你所說的自律"},{"start":7384.662,"end":7410.925,"text":"他律以及法律但現在政府跟法律目前可觸及的範圍是只有廣電的範疇那假訊息已經轉到相關的YouTubeTikTokPacket缺乏這種跨媒體的追蹤的這樣的一個機制那NCC雖然說可以採訪傳統的媒體但是這種網路傳播卻是無法可管"},{"start":7411.485,"end":7427.558,"text":"那造成治理跟監管上的一個落差你有什麼看法你可以列舉出相關通常會裁法的件數那這種但是沒有回應這種訊息跨平台傳播的問題這是一個很嚴重的問題來說明一下"},{"start":7429.598,"end":7445.862,"text":"在傳統的廣電媒體的部分根據《衛光法》的第27條就有關於事實查證的這個規範在裡面那這個部分可以防止廣電媒體的假訊息的傳播"},{"start":7448.323,"end":7473.295,"text":"至於在其他平台方面的傳播或者是假訊息所導致的這種詐騙的情況其實有跨部會的分工的狀況就是大家一起來防止假訊息好 那請你注意相關的這些項目以上謝謝李崑澤召委的指引"},{"start":7480.259,"end":7484.281,"text":"謝謝林國成委員現在請翁曉琳委員發言好主席好在這邊有請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":7508.445,"end":7520.042,"text":"主席好還有羅碧婷名人好我這邊還是稱呼您羅教授比較習慣我想今天針對NCC委員的資格審查那我在這裡我還是比較強調專業雖然說從您先前的投書裡面大家可以"},{"start":7523.987,"end":7550.698,"text":"約略已經可以判斷出您的對於一些議題還有一些政治的看法那麼但是我想NCC的這個委員審查還是蠻強調專業的所以我今天我想就教您幾個問題首先請教您是否同意相同內容要做相同管制政府應該避免因為不同的傳輸技術而為差別管理的這個說法相同內容要不要做相同管制"},{"start":7556.401,"end":7574.162,"text":"這個問題很抽象所以相同的內容只是內容的類型還是同樣一個內容同樣一個節目的內容他今天可能在廣電媒體上面播出了同時又在YT上面播出了同時又在不同的社群媒體平台的播出您認為要不要做相同的管制"},{"start":7575.681,"end":7604.014,"text":"理想上他們應該要應該要有相同的管制的強度但事實上是做不到的是 為什麼做不到所以您認為說現在社群媒體的這樣子這麼寬鬆的管制那相對於廣電媒體的這樣的很嚴格的管制您基本上是支持這樣的做法我不支持這樣的做法但是因為目前的NCC的內容監理就只有到廣電媒體的部分"},{"start":7605.353,"end":7633.342,"text":"好那所以總之就是您不太認同就是相同內容要做相同管制然後呢政府也不可以因為不同技術而去做而做差別的管理是嗎不是我認為相同的內容相同的內容它的管制的比如說這個內容是錯的假訊息它就算是在不同的地方"},{"start":7634.383,"end":7649.865,"text":"我想回到這個廣電法裡面來談好了因為現在其實大家對於就是網路上面的內容還有它的管制的標準那麼是不是應該要和在廣電媒體上面的管制"},{"start":7650.645,"end":7665.172,"text":"標準是其一或者是說要拉高網路媒體內容的管制那就這個部分其實社會上面有非常多的討論那麼請問您支持NCC應該要作為網路的主管機關嗎"},{"start":7671.459,"end":7698.61,"text":"不好意思 待會兒可能請主席要多給我幾秒鐘因為羅貝婷一人她都比較慢回答好 來 請說我個人的立場會認為NCC它目前在法律裡頭它已經有網際網路政策的擬定政策和法令的執掌了"},{"start":7701.124,"end":7705.49,"text":"是嗎NCC還有這樣的執掌嗎是的在117年的NCC現在監理的對象是什麼她監理的內容監理的對象還是廣電還是廣電媒體除了廣電之外呢內容的部分啦是只有廣電"},{"start":7715.743,"end":7733.928,"text":"但是在網際網路的部分是可以擬定政策因為這個詞它有一點點大是說接下來我要提問的就是說您知道NCC之前曾經有提過與網路媒體相關的這個法案嗎"},{"start":7735.842,"end":7752.335,"text":"有的譬如說你可以舉例嗎數位中階服務法還有就是其實NCC現在也有已經公佈了網際網路政策白皮書了NCC其實過去一直都有公佈相關的白皮書我們看一下其實NCC其實從這些年來"},{"start":7754.457,"end":7773.579,"text":"他不仅仅是近年他最近一次是炒你了也推出了数位终点服务法在之前有网界网路视听服务管理法数位通讯传播服务法还有网界网路视听服务法等等这些不同的法案那么看起来NCC基本上他在网路政策上面他是想要拿主导权"},{"start":7773.959,"end":7793.871,"text":"但是 是不適合當主管機關我想這是NCC委員未來必須要面對的問題他到底有沒有能力可以去當這個主管機關那麼接下來我想請問一下就是說您同意 您認為經營媒體 頻道 直播 節目內容是不是屬於言論自由的一環所謂的媒體禁用權它涵蓋範圍在哪裡"},{"start":7796.778,"end":7824.693,"text":"這個部分是屬於言論自由的一個部分所以就ACC的角度 監理機關的角度您認為對於網電媒體的深色 換照等等應該是採取嚴格的態度還是寬鬆的態度在深色的部分我認為是可以寬鬆一點的好 所以真的選擇執照的時候就要做嚴格管理那接下來我要請教的就是說頻道執照一旦廢照之後可不可以再提出申請"},{"start":7829.163,"end":7844.541,"text":"在我個人的因為當然這個是一個比較大的題目那在過去也沒有發生過沒有發生過有再申請執照的這個狀況但就以我個人的立場來看我認為是可以的好"},{"start":7845.121,"end":7866.974,"text":"因為氣焰在衛光法裡面基本上他是可以同意頻道執照廢照之後兩年之後他就可以再提出申請所以如果說中天頻道中天電視台今天再提出頻道申請您會支持嗎當然他可以來申請所以您會支持嗎從中天氣焰的表現您會支持他可以重新拿到執照嗎"},{"start":7868.666,"end":7878.297,"text":"拿到執照就是NCCC是一個合一制所以大家要一起討論好看起來您還是未必這個問題以上謝謝謝謝翁曉琳委員發言完畢現在請煥雲委員發言"},{"start":7895.373,"end":7901.112,"text":"好 謝謝莊委 有請那個被提名人羅惠文教授 請羅被提名人"},{"start":7909.093,"end":7934.462,"text":"好那個因為我看到那個羅教授在專業上其實是有研究過日本的通訊傳播的相關法規還有日本的通訊傳播的相關的機制因為剛剛翁小玲委員一直問到就是NCC的部分我想請問你一般來講的話你覺得我們的NCC對於就是新聞傳播的相對於其他民主國家是比較寬鬆還是比較嚴格"},{"start":7937.991,"end":7950.886,"text":"跟民主國家相比的話對 民主國家 威權國家我們當然就不比了嘛其實應該是差不多的應該是差不多的 就是我們的法規或者是我們的這些案件 對"},{"start":7952.628,"end":7980.634,"text":"看到以我瞭解的英國當然就是說日本我沒有研究其實就假新聞這方面未經查證的假新聞其實臺灣是相對寬鬆那當然就是我要講的部分是說我還是希望NCC因為我們新聞媒體真的非常的遏制應該是要就是能夠就是更能夠做好媒體的自律跟他律剛剛我們昭緯其實也有提到就是自律他律那不管是兒少性貧"},{"start":7981.494,"end":8002.131,"text":"還有媒體的品質的維護那當然今天我想針對AI跟新聞的紅線在哪裡請教那個羅被提名人因為我看到這一次在提名的時候我們都有提到在AI的時代其實議題越來越嚴重那根據國外的一個調查其實從2023年開始已經有85%"},{"start":8006.354,"end":8032.525,"text":"五的新聞製作的各個環節如果我們就四十六個國家一百零五位新聞從業人員來看的話超過百分之八十五的人已經在使用AI那超過百分之六十的這些新聞從業人員中他們其實是擔心的就是擔心他影響新聞的公信力那我的辦公室研究整理一下新聞使用AI其實有四大風險"},{"start":8033.425,"end":8049.769,"text":"一個就是資料偏誤可能會導致假新聞甚至我們有看到身為的圖片如果沒有註明的話影像它其實就是一種假新聞還有就是責任歸屬難以追究還有就是媒體其實也是迎合流量忽視公益"},{"start":8050.129,"end":8067.347,"text":"最後一個就是他導致缺乏倫理跟文化的敏感度這是四個風險那我們看一下國外的媒體怎麼面對AI那這是我辦公室整理的我們查了不同的媒體如果以我們看到有四類的就是自我規範"},{"start":8068.268,"end":8092.202,"text":"一個是AI的內容一定要經過審查才能刊出一個是使用AI不管是圖片或者是新聞要註明第三個禁止使用深圍第四個是減少演算法的偏見以BBC來講他做到其中的三個那以那個CBC就是加拿大廣播公司他也是比較嚴謹的自我規範也做到其中三者"},{"start":8092.742,"end":8112.899,"text":"最後一個是美聯社那它比較不一樣的是它會規範多一個拒絕聲尾的內容就是只要是AI生成的假影像假聲音那甚至譬如說去偽造李昆澤 趙偉的聲音這種都是不能夠刊登的完全不允許的那這是國際媒體已經有這方面的"},{"start":8114.042,"end":8133.331,"text":"那我們辦公室查了一下臺灣的發現以剛剛這幾個指標第三個就比較就是跟申委有關但是我們他用不同的文字只有公視目前主動訂了AI使用準則這四個都不可以那再來的第二名是報導者其中有三個關於申委的部分他們沒有處理"},{"start":8134.091,"end":8162.672,"text":"最後是中央社中央社有一個就是深層必須要經過編輯臺審查之後才能發布那他們還有一個就是不得用AI處理任何個資或機密的資料以防資料外洩或誤用那所以臺灣來講的話初步有這個開始那所以我想請問您我想這應該也是您研究國外國內的傳播新聞相關的政策的時候面對到的新興課題"},{"start":8164.013,"end":8187.846,"text":"那如果您當選之後那您認為NCC應該要如何訂定廣播電視AI的使用規範那是不是會評估就是明確規範不管是標示AI生成的內容還有禁播未經人工審核的AI內容還有避免AI有歧視或者是身為這種非常具有誤導性的新聞傳播內容呢"},{"start":8190.502,"end":8206.688,"text":"關於這個AI使用規範的訂定委員所提的這些我都非常的認同因為畢竟現在我剛剛提到那個高齡容易被詐騙的其中一個原因也是因為他們並不知道現在的科技已經發展到真假難辨了"},{"start":8207.948,"end":8228.061,"text":"所以他們不知道AI的那個身為的影片是可以偽裝成他的親人偽裝成一個權威的機構的人所以這個真的是更何況說他如果今天是出現在新聞上面或者節目上面所以我認同是NCC應該要來訂定AI的使用規範"},{"start":8229.976,"end":8249.817,"text":"所以就是如果您當選的話您認為就是NCC應該要來評估就是要能夠一起建立廣播電視的AI使用的倫理跟透明標準是不是是的OK好那謝謝您的回應那我沒有其他的問題謝謝好謝謝范林委員"},{"start":8251.526,"end":8263.091,"text":"質詢完畢現在請陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員不在現在請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在跟葉委員對調嗎好好"},{"start":8291.25,"end":8301.908,"text":"謝謝 因為剛才委員要來助理要來第一名單的時候我低頭沒有看到跟助理抱歉好 我們現在請劉書斌委員發言"},{"start":8326.541,"end":8327.061,"text":"謝謝主席 那請羅貝提名人羅貝提名人我也稱呼你為羅教授"},{"start":8348.915,"end":8367.027,"text":"我們知道國家通訊傳播委員會是我國負責監理廣電通訊的獨立機關那在通訊環境快速變化數位平台崛起的情況之下外界對於NCC角色的期待包括執法跟裁罰"},{"start":8370.511,"end":8381.345,"text":"能夠規劃及回應產業的社會變化是很期待的因此我想要詢問您NCC現在最需要處理面對的三項核心問題是什麼"},{"start":8385.204,"end":8408.904,"text":"NCC最需要處理的問題呢目前有法律的建制不足的問題就是我們的目前的法規都是二十幾年前就已經基本的樣貌都長在那了但是我們現在的主要的大家的媒體的使用都是手機為主或者是社群媒體為主網路平台為主"},{"start":8409.304,"end":8427.225,"text":"所以是法規需要修改對 法規需要修改還有嗎另外還有一個就是其實剛剛也有委員有提到平建制度像是平建制度或者是這個就是所謂的要他們法尊的部分"},{"start":8427.805,"end":8444.771,"text":"那那個部分呢它其實也可以適度地適度地做一些修改好 謝謝羅教授那因為這部分我想要跟您看到的是NCC作為一個獨立機關其實是非常重要的是在於一個信任的問題因為它獨立機關如果不能夠"},{"start":8445.991,"end":8462.896,"text":"獨立的去行使職權包括很多的這種干預在裡面的話就是大問題我們現在看這樣的一個調查結果在2020年的時候11月份的台灣民意調查基金會裡面做全國性民調當中呢68.4%的民眾是不信任NCC的"},{"start":8463.496,"end":8482.058,"text":"好 那是因為受到他有不受政治力的干預那我們看到在民眾黨去年的11月所做的這個委託民調當中對NCC的全國的滿意度就只有33%那這不滿意度這個達到將近八五成的地步那包括的是說"},{"start":8483.259,"end":8504.238,"text":"對於民眾不只對NCC的這樣子的一個不信任度包括對媒體的信任度也是低的尤其是他這個不信任度高達54.2 超過一半那學歷越高是越不信任這個事情請讓你了解那因此這對方針對目前NCC與媒體不信任的這個問題那您擔任委員後將如何來解決呢"},{"start":8508.602,"end":8531.261,"text":"有沒有什麼想法這應該算是兩個問題一個是NCC本身一個就是我們台灣的媒體的專業的問題那在NCC的部分NCC目前的透明度和問責性應該都還可以再加強那比如說很多人都不知道NCC的裁罰裁決是怎麼出來的那關於這部分呢可以去加強它的透明度"},{"start":8531.821,"end":8547.004,"text":"因為想到NCC的問題那我就先因為你在回答我們本黨的問卷的時候你有一些回覆嗎我們現在看一下在這個回覆當中你有特別的提到這個回覆當中我們先看一下你認為說針對這個新聞媒體的這部分他是強調的這個責任的機制當中有包括是第一個要先自律為先行那再來是輿論的監督再就是法律的規範是吧是"},{"start":8560.766,"end":8589.248,"text":"是 那這個地方呢我們就想要問你的一個問題就是說因為您曾經在109年12月到113年4月23號的時候是當作定電式的自立委員會的委員跟主委嗎是 那我們現在繼續看下去的時候您對於我們看到的在等於說111年到111年的9月在這當中所發生的很多NCC的這個爭議事件的時候深造發生很多事情的時候呢"},{"start":8590.209,"end":8608.998,"text":"您當時作為自律委員會的委員甚至是主委的時候呢對於這樣子的一個回應就是你開過會議記錄當中顯現出來說針對管理團隊干涉新聞自由的指控只依循外部公平人的研究來進行"},{"start":8610.279,"end":8627.596,"text":"那並沒有針對說你們認為說不可能再做超越這份報告不錯也許是這樣子可是很重要的我們想問的是說你在遇到這種情況的時候有沒有再進一步再啟動調查了解情況那我們現在想詢問的是你後來這邊有沒有再做下一步的你接受這份報告你是不是讓那這個淨電視這邊有沒有後續的這些處理"},{"start":8630.098,"end":8651.659,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員的提問劉委員非常的細心有找到這個部分其實我那時候一碰到管理團隊的紛爭的時候我是第一個出來說我們應該要來調查這件事情的而且我們也訪問了調查了很多的員工"},{"start":8652.319,"end":8676.997,"text":"那在我們開始之後呢我們因為靜電視比較特別 妳的調查是在這個外部委員外部調查報告之前還是之後我比他早一點點對 但是妳後來已經接受了這個外部的調查啦但是我做的沒有他仔細因為我不是對 那我重點 請妳回答我的重點說這個調查妳接受外部的報告之後那妳的後續靜電視有針對這邊有修改嗎有做一些改變嗎"},{"start":8678.637,"end":8697.736,"text":"我要說的是我是自律委員會呢是等於是像是一個外部的外部專家學者諮詢的一個角色那今天是特別的是它是一個自律雙委制它另外有公平人所以是沒有作為嗎是不是就沒有作為的沒有沒有我沒有作為的因為我們是先啟動調查"},{"start":8699.838,"end":8722.15,"text":"但是公平人那一邊呢他做了更長期的調查那因為我們是我們是只有知名劉教授您用迴避的問題我說這個部分已經在外部已經做掉您接受了可是在外部後面的繼續的部分您並沒有呈現出來所以這部分我們先看到了因為並沒有看到靜電視有什麼做後面的改變那我們看看您要求的第二部分是輿論對不對輿論的這樣子的一個詳盡的效果那我們繼續往下看在"},{"start":8727.692,"end":8747.241,"text":"這個輿論我們現在看到的是已經有我自己在查的情況之下在以去年喔九月開始的時候那柯文哲主席他有就進來的部分那針對的是最終是他一直到有一個很重要就是有有期許就是輿論當中其實對這一部分天天在很多的電視媒體啦好都都有呈現出來的時候"},{"start":8747.961,"end":8770.44,"text":"有看到是有一個小省1500的所涉及的這個被檢舉到NCC的部分那部分的這裡有13件到了到9月18號的時候呢已經增加到了33件當然這邊的還涉及到到的是靜電室這邊其實中間也被檢舉到說到NCC有兩件那但是因為後來這部分就沒有再做處理啦但是我們可以看到的是"},{"start":8772.042,"end":8789.896,"text":"NCC的部分針對所謂的輿論所創造的效果當中並沒有發生效果的孤立啊並沒有譬如說針對這一部分現在更重要的是也就是我們為什麼國民對於媒體的這個不信任感是這麼高的原因是在於說就算是自律還有"},{"start":8790.757,"end":8812.555,"text":"包括媒體的或是說NC是因為現在的就算是因為人數不足沒辦法去開會可是他所做出來的一些相關部分的一些說明等等的都是應該很有效的要做這樣的一個說明謝謝張偉國主席我現在簡單的說一下再說既然在您所說的那三個部分在媒體自律還有包括的是"},{"start":8814.236,"end":8836.648,"text":"這個輿論的效果甚至是包括的是法律的這一部分那更重要的是那法律部分你剛才說有需要修改嘛對不對包括你剛才說是因為有些過時但是這一部分針對所謂的獨立機關要做這些部分的時候我現在在最後一個問題就是說如果您擔任NCC委員的話順利講說你發生到經新聞相同類似的事情你會如何處理還是要依賴外部機制嗎"},{"start":8840.99,"end":8852.776,"text":"我就是依法行政就是我在做NCC委員跟我之前的學者角色是完全不一樣的我們就是依法行政獨立行使職權而且NCC是一個合一職"},{"start":8853.885,"end":8871.375,"text":"好但是我想您會針對如果也出現到這個情況的時候就是說如果有要出現這個已經政治干預這部分因為我也想期許你啦NCC的委員他擔任取來之後他的獨立機關甚至獨立的這個角色還包括政治干預絕對是要排除掉好就這樣子謝謝謝謝劉淑冰委員發言完畢現在請林一錦委員林一錦委員"},{"start":8882.13,"end":8897.102,"text":"林益錦委員不在現在請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在現在請蔡奇昌委員蔡奇昌委員蔡奇昌委員不在現在請何欣淳委員"},{"start":8898.032,"end":8914.91,"text":"何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在現在請陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員不在現在請徐富奎委員徐富奎委員徐富奎委員不在現在請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":8923.188,"end":8926.44,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":8935.472,"end":8953.663,"text":"好 貝提名人好我想今天一整天大家都在討論NCC獨立行使的重要性那也要兼負責維護媒體的多樣性保障言論自由更重要的是促進整個通訊見錢穩健的一個重責大任"},{"start":8954.483,"end":8972.011,"text":"所以在這個部分上我想今天有直播那您在備詢但是我想在這個狀況之下可不可以跟所有的選舉國人來分享一下你要如何確保自己的獨立性並且不會受政治的干預按照法規我們就是要中立我們就是要獨立行使職權那依照我們的專業來做判斷"},{"start":8985.319,"end":9008.804,"text":"好謝謝你這麼簡單的回應那我想對於這樣子的一個回應並不能夠很明確的回答到我個人想知道的一些相關內容因為我想依法行使大家都會說那您的專業判斷我想大家都會有所疑慮什麼樣的專業是符合您個人認為的專業還是民眾所期許的一個專業那我想"},{"start":9009.324,"end":9037.809,"text":"今天外界大家對您的人事提名有兩種不同的一個輿論一種認為您長期研究傳播政策與媒體經濟有理論制度的一個背景那另外一種則擔心您過去在中天幻照事件中發表過比較明確的一個評論是否會影響到社會對NCC的公正性的一個信任我想用比較制度比較中立的一個角度請你說明幾個面向"},{"start":9038.669,"end":9054.832,"text":"那關於角色的轉換您過去是學者可以自由的評論公共議題但成為NCC委員必須轉為決策者甚至可能是裁定他人我想請問一下您如何看待學者的言論自由跟公職中立的義務之間的一個界線"},{"start":9057.207,"end":9078.763,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那確實我在做傳播學者的時候是可以就如同我剛剛在回答其他委員的提問的時候提到的我的發文我的發言通常都是在這個有爭議的時候大家對於新聞自由是什麼這個概念不清楚的時候或是把新聞自由無限上綱的時候"},{"start":9079.463,"end":9093.819,"text":"我認為這個是一個作為傳播學者就是要有義務幫大家釐清概念那個是當學者的時候可是如果我今天有這個機會能夠進到NCC來服務那我的這個"},{"start":9095.16,"end":9115.048,"text":"個人的學者的工作就是去解說學理怎麼運用的工作其實是有很多的優秀的傳播學者也可以繼續去做的我會專注在我們的NCC自己的本身的業務上面而且我會非常強調的一點就是我會強調透明"},{"start":9116.528,"end":9144.075,"text":"就是我們現在之所以不信任NCC有一個很大的原因是因為NCC的決策還不夠透明大家不知道這些決定是怎麼來的它是經過一些諮詢會議然後經過NCC的七個委員的這個合議制而產生的所以將來我如果有幸可以有這個機會可以進入到NCC我會把握好這樣的一個分際"},{"start":9145.29,"end":9156.575,"text":"所以您覺得事實的公佈相關的一些諮詢會議透明化是您的希望能夠擔任以後該做的事嗎是的包括會議嗎"},{"start":9158.047,"end":9178.699,"text":"當然喔那我想NCC過去常被批評過度的管制但也有人認為呢放任市場導致假訊息的氾濫那您認為NCC在定位應該在哪裡是保障言論自由的守門員還是促進媒體責任的平衡者能否說說你心中理想的NCC"},{"start":9180.969,"end":9208.508,"text":"NCC它應該是一個制定政策的也就是政策的一個設計者那它設計了這樣的政策之後那它能夠特別就是傳播政策那由於現在的整個的環境它跟以前廣電時代是不一樣的我們有很多的平台我們的這些傳播訊息是可以在不同的平台都有露出所以它涉及的這個面向實在是太廣了"},{"start":9209.489,"end":9228.781,"text":"那NCC將來的這個工作應該是跟各個部會協力分工合作就比如說我們現在所做的這個打炸我們打炸就有國家隊內政部 教育部 金管會各司其職但是它就會要有一個這個主導的"},{"start":9230.342,"end":9256.468,"text":"我認為在很多的面向上面很多的政策上面NCC都可以扮演一個主導的角色為什麼呢因為NCC它的業務裡頭有一個是加強台灣民眾的嗜讀的能力我們今天發生很多這樣的事情就是因為我們的民眾嗜讀的能力還不夠所以這個部分應該是NCC責無旁貸要做的事情"},{"start":9257.388,"end":9272.767,"text":"這幾天我們也一直在討論媒體嗜毒然後希望能夠提升青少年的媒體分辨力所以這也是本席非常關注的一個議題當中那我想這幾天我也一直在詢問各個被提名人想跟你詢問一下"},{"start":9273.468,"end":9291.409,"text":"那我想不管是對於傳播教育或是政策的一個討論當中有人主張應該對這個平台強制揭露不管是演算法也好或者是內容的來源標示等相關的一個機制甚至是現在的AI有可能已經到達了"},{"start":9292.29,"end":9309.965,"text":"準備要氾濫的一個階段因為AI的一些影片還有AI的一些照片都有可能未經查證就加以使用那所以您能夠認同比如說像AI應該要標示是AI還是真人這個部分您怎麼回答"},{"start":9311.407,"end":9329.762,"text":"是的委員剛剛提出來都是非常新的趨勢而且是一個非常非常及時的也有立即的這個可能會造成一些風險的這個AI的這個使用的問題那確實就是在NCC的角度他會要求的就是希望媒體在"},{"start":9330.703,"end":9355.056,"text":"使用這些AI生成圖片的時候它能標示或者是說使用AI做出來的這些報導呢它最後的它的一關一定要人工審核一定要有人類的參與那這些就是NCC會做成相應的指引所以你認同又有一個審核機制甚至是應該標示清楚相關來源是的 應該要標示清楚好 謝謝您 謝謝"},{"start":9359.495,"end":9383.263,"text":"謝謝羅廷維委員發言完畢現在請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在現在請賴世保委員賴世保委員賴世保委員不在現在請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":9384.003,"end":9411.447,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在現在請王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在現在請高金素美委員 高金素美委員 高金素美委員不在現在請羅明才委員 羅明才委員 羅明才委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":9412.117,"end":9431.062,"text":"現在請林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在現在請郭鈺晴委員郭鈺晴委員郭鈺晴委員不在現在請吳佩奕委員吳佩奕委員吳佩奕委員不在現在請葉源之委員發言"},{"start":9446.383,"end":9449.125,"text":"主席好 麻煩請貝提名人請羅貝提名人貝提名人你好這個根據您過去的言論您個人的立場算是比較鮮明這件事情特別是在中天關台的事你曾經說過中天不能夠稱為有言論自由因為他們幫韓國瑜造勢誇張行徑"},{"start":9476.119,"end":9496.234,"text":"所以中天你說他是在行使第四權監督政府難以服眾而且您也提到中天的政論節目的主持人成了啦啦隊中天是購物台 宗教台所以您是認為說中天不能構成新聞自由我想跟您請教一下我不知道您是作為一個學者"},{"start":9496.934,"end":9518.483,"text":"那在前一段大罷免期間你應該也有看到很多媒體啊他也變成大罷免的啦啦隊甚至於呢到被罷免人的選區跳罷免舞然後大家動員群眾在那邊喊罷免您認為同樣的標準這些新聞台他是新聞自由嗎他是不是購物台跟宗教台"},{"start":9521.348,"end":9547.299,"text":"謝謝委員的提問 委員講的這個現象其實不同的現象嘛 一個是造神的 就是只為特定的候選人造事 造神的 那另外一個就是在談的是一個普遍的社會運動或是政治運動所以你認為電視台成為政治運動的一部分 然後去煽動罷免 在你的標準你是覺得OK的"},{"start":9550.013,"end":9558.58,"text":"你覺得新聞台不用做到客觀查證只要有立場只要他不是造神他去推廣政治立場這是OK的"},{"start":9560.834,"end":9584.274,"text":"我刚刚的话应该没有办法导出这样的结论那请问一下那你就具体回答我的问题因为我们要看一下你的立场就是是不是有双重标准那你刚刚我听起来你是说如果特定造神的话不行但是如果搞罢免跑到一个地方去跳罢免舞说要去罢免这是OK的我在"},{"start":9584.656,"end":9604.269,"text":"我覺得還有一個問題其實是要釐清的就是我們說為特定的候選人然後播出特別多的時間然後讓他有正面的報導那個又是在什麼又是在這個在這個選舉的妳就回答罷免選舉罷免是同一件事情"},{"start":9606.05,"end":9633.717,"text":"從一件事情你就回答我的問題就好我只問你覺得可不可以嘛你的標準是可不可以嘛但我們在討論就是我剛剛講的那個就是我剛剛講的案例你覺得可不可以我要說的是因為您看的是我寫的中天的那個文章嘛你不用管我看什麼您就講可不可以現在您是來被我們詢問不用一直閃避問題嘛我沒有閃避問題可不可以嘛因為你NC委員你到時候對媒體會有裁罰權啊"},{"start":9635.057,"end":9660.306,"text":"那如果以你現在的標準你作為一個委員如果有媒體他有特定的立場跑去搞罷免類似這樣狀況假設你是委員的話然後他們一堆人不管來賓 主持人一起在跳罷免舞說要罷免特定的人你覺得按照你的假設有人檢舉你認為有沒有符合你的標準是不是變成購物台 宗教台其實所謂的新聞我現在要講的是NCC這個立場"},{"start":9664.269,"end":9680.174,"text":"我們在問問題為什麼民進黨人都喜歡打岔啊主席可不可以管一下秩序不好意思主席好我們回到剛剛那個問題喔所謂的那個選舉的那個時候的問題或者說韓國瑜那個問題好了你一直閃避問題顯示你的心虛嘛我的問題那麼的明顯我都說你當時候標準是這樣我現在問你如果是你當委員那我剛舉的例子你同不同我那時候的標準是假新聞"},{"start":9692.816,"end":9710.823,"text":"就是新聞的真實與否所以講到韓國瑜那個我再問你罷免你不用扯到韓國瑜好嗎我再問你罷免可不可以就是特定的電視台跑去搞罷免跳罷免舞說要去罷免特定的委員按照你這個NCC的委員如果你是委員你同不同意這樣的做法"},{"start":9711.844,"end":9735.902,"text":"這麼簡單的問題你答不出來還是因為你覺得我講的是特定某幾個電視台你不好意思講所以你就在閃避問題那你的標準你的標準就很明顯了嘛對不起沒關係我覺得這是無效的問答啦我覺得是無效的因為我的問題很明確我的問題很明確你一直在閃避那我請教你啦你那時候講說因為中天呢是你是引述金融時報的報導啦你認為中天的主編"},{"start":9736.903,"end":9756.87,"text":"是有直接聽命於國台辦對吧你文章是這樣寫的吧你引述金融時報報導對吧所以你覺得中天當時呢他們沒有新聞自由因為他們被國台辦影響嘛對吧這是你那時候文章的看法嘛是不是那你知不知道其實中天對於金融時報報導有去提告有抗議"},{"start":9758.11,"end":9783.002,"text":"那請問一下為什麼你的文章裡面沒有去做平衡呢沒有去引述說人家有抗議所以這個消息存而不論所以你有立場啊你立場就是你挑選對你的立場比較有相關的訊息來報導基本上新聞要求平衡你作為一個假設你做一個NCC委員你就沒有橫平的去了解所有的訊息啊那你知不知道上個星期因為周玉蔻說中天是紅媒"},{"start":9783.982,"end":9797.725,"text":"本來北院判周玉蔻要賠280萬上個禮拜高院還提高了罰金要判賠320萬只因為周玉蔻說中天是紅媒是中共傳聲筒"},{"start":9799.441,"end":9816.497,"text":"換句話說講中天紅媒的人都被法院判賠啦結果您作為一個學者在寫文章的時候你只有引述你認為攻擊中天是紅媒的文章對於人家澄清對於人家去提告置之未提你覺得這樣子有做到平衡嗎"},{"start":9818.649,"end":9844.698,"text":"回答委員問題我那篇文章呢是一篇文章而不是一個報導而且我也不是委員所以從你的文章可以了解你的立場嘛因為你的立場是你要攻擊中天嘛所以對中天不利的消息你就在引述嘛我最主要的是在談新聞專業的問題新聞專業的底線是不能夠做假新聞假新聞作為一個學者也要客觀中立嘛"},{"start":9845.798,"end":9864.045,"text":"學者寫文章也是有影響力的嘛學者寫文章透過媒體去發布也是有影響力的嘛但是呢你就偏頗的引述你要去攻擊對象的資料對於人家澄清資質未提去建構中天是紅媒的印象所以認為他們主張新聞自由是不可取的"},{"start":9864.765,"end":9878.19,"text":"這就是你的邏輯啊那我們怎麼能夠相信他你作為NCC委員你作為NCC委員你會公平的這跟假新聞無關嘛我講的是你的新聞裡面講紅媒這件事情我有講到假新聞嗎我在講紅媒欸你為什麼老是問A答B有這麼心虛嗎我在講紅媒欸我有講到假新聞嗎"},{"start":9889.915,"end":9905.386,"text":"但是我們剛剛最早的題目是在講新聞自由沒有 我沒有在跟你講假新聞做假新聞是不可能有新聞自由的那請問一下最後一個問題可是任何人都有立場我的立場就是堅持新聞自由那請教一下那你有立場你NCC為什麼叫獨立機關"},{"start":9906.747,"end":9919.234,"text":"NCC為什麼有這個機關是因為以前是新聞局在管媒體大家認為新聞局是政府一塊媒體有可能會被政府影響所以獨立出來變成一個獨立機關那如果進到這個機關裡面的每一個都有立場那這個機關要怎麼獨立"},{"start":9921.004,"end":9939.974,"text":"每個人都有立場但是在做NCC委員的時候必須中立這是我可以承諾的事情做NCC委員就必須要中立而你現在講的都是我做傳播學者的時候好 謝謝月圓之委員發言完畢現在請林育君委員發言"},{"start":9952.655,"end":9955.818,"text":"謝謝主席請羅貝提名人你好我聽了剛剛所有委員對你的詢問你覺得你的審查會通過嗎我覺得"},{"start":9977.285,"end":9991.114,"text":"妳覺得會通過嗎我覺得還是有可能好 我真的佩服妳今天站在這邊的勇氣好 被提名人當時妳認為中天新聞台在選舉期間為特定的候選人造勢的誇張行徑"},{"start":9992.595,"end":10010.234,"text":"及政論節目的主持人像特定陣營的啦啦隊整個台都是荒腔走板你甚至表示立場說目前台灣干涉新聞自由往往不是公權力而是媒體的經營者所以你認為當時中天新聞台在新聞內容的編採上面"},{"start":10011.255,"end":10029.667,"text":"毫不忌諱地站在特定的政治的立場所以我現在想要請教被提名人在台灣如果一個媒體只顧追求自身的利益甚至只為了媒體老闆的利益服務還能擁有憲法保障新聞的自由嗎你就簡單回答就好了是不是不行"},{"start":10034.945,"end":10051.235,"text":"因為我們還是回到那個個案的討論那這是不是等於是剛才我問你的是不是等於新聞自由的濫用是不是新聞自由的濫用是她的紅線就是假新聞"},{"start":10055.277,"end":10074.927,"text":"那所以我們剛剛討論的這一個case中天的問題就在於製造假新聞這是一個他最大的問題那其他呢他這個不被換照的理由當然還有內控機制啦自律機制的失靈啦還有他承諾該做的因為那已經是他的他之前是"},{"start":10076.687,"end":10099.802,"text":"是那個有條件通過他在前一次的換照是有條件通過所以他理當就要做得更好但是那些承諾他都沒有做到所以我覺得不是那麼單純的就是講要防止媒體老闆對新聞自由的干預是不是就必須要靠新聞的倫理和編輯自主的自律機制這樣你應該認同吧"},{"start":10101.403,"end":10121.768,"text":"是的 這也是NCC一直在著力的點它希望每一個新聞台它都要簽新聞自主公約好 那我再問一下就是說你曾經在綠媒平台上面網路上面有投書有說過你認為中天新聞台不是台灣唯一一家老闆干預新聞運作的媒體"},{"start":10122.648,"end":10136.587,"text":"也有其他媒體老闆也將媒體影響力當作政治利益交換的籌碼那我想請問一下就是你認為台灣目前還有哪一家新聞台是因為政治喜好或是背後媒體老闆的影響而干預新聞台的運作呢"},{"start":10140.467,"end":10156.836,"text":"我寫那篇文章的目的就是我也希望大家不是眼睛只看到中天因為我們希望大家有媒體適度的能力對 所以那像妳說不是台灣不是唯一不是唯一一家那妳覺得說還有哪幾家呢妳可以說明一下嗎背後都可能有那其實應該是不只一家就我所做的訪談裡頭就是不只一家 還有好幾家對不對"},{"start":10167.102,"end":10192.917,"text":"因為我們在7.26和8.23的大罷免的期間其實我們有看到很多電視台都是還是表達特定的政治的立場支持和反對所以這個都毫不遮掩所以你覺得這些都是假的嗎還是有沒有公正立場播報新聞呢你是說關於大罷免的新聞嗎對 7.26和8.23的時候那時候的電視台他們是不是有沒有對一些特定的政治立場"},{"start":10194.298,"end":10218.348,"text":"在表達支持或反對其實在這個傳播學界的這個研究裡面呢我們普遍認為是電視台它在它本身在做這個新聞的這個時候是應該是據事實做報導這個真實這件事情是首要的那一個電視台能不能有立場呢其實我們看國外的非常多電視台他們也都是有立場"},{"start":10219.068,"end":10245.677,"text":"但是在有立場的情況之下他還是要必須根據事實來做報導所以是他可以有立場的事實的傳遞或有立場的真相的傳遞這個是被容許的那我再問最後一個問題就是現在民進黨執政的三立新聞台還有民視新聞台這些媒體在播放新聞和政論節目有自律嗎都有符合新聞專業與倫理嗎你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":10247.723,"end":10261.708,"text":"有沒有自律呢其實他是一個需要需要一個檢驗的一個程序就是如果他們在他們的這個自律委員會裡頭有人申訴他們不夠專業或怎麼樣然後在他們"},{"start":10263.909,"end":10278.776,"text":"這個自律委員會經過處理之後因為我只想要知道你的看法因為你是進電視新聞台的新聞自律倫理的委員會的主委嘛你曾經當過嘛所以我是想說你針對這件事情你的看法"},{"start":10279.856,"end":10297.252,"text":"是他們有自律嗎對 我認為整體來說我們的整個新聞環境的自律都要加強那當然還有一個原因就是因為其實他很需要專業的像我們這樣的傳播學者我們進去這個自律委員會是個外部的機構等於是一個連結公民團體跟電視台之間的一個機構"},{"start":10301.596,"end":10322.811,"text":"那我們如果呢不會像今天我進入這個淨電視輪委會當主委就被貼標籤的話我相信有更多更多的公民社會的或是公民團體或者是或者是這個傳播學者或其他領域的學者都會願意來加入這個自律機制會讓我們的台灣的自律的機制做得更好OK 好"},{"start":10325.834,"end":10353.8,"text":"好 謝謝林益君委員發言完畢現在請邱若驊委員邱若驊委員邱若驊委員不在現在請廖先祥委員廖先祥委員廖先祥委員不在被提名人羅惠文女士之說明與答詢結束"},{"start":10355.399,"end":10365.5,"text":"羅惠文女士可先行離席 謝謝好 我們現在先休息十分鐘"},{"start":11441.4,"end":11460.755,"text":"好 继续开会本次会议登记询问四位被提名人的本院委员军旅发言完毕做以下决定一 说明集答询完毕二 委员蔡吉昌 尤浩 鲁明哲 邱若华 陈秀宝 何先纯本日所提书面咨询"},{"start":11461.314,"end":11489.766,"text":"及20日委員所提書面諮詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三 委員於詢問中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答覆部分請行政院及相關機關盡速以書面答覆宣告本案四位被提名人同意案聯席會之審查結果均審查完畢提報院會公決"},{"start":11491.445,"end":11491.647,"text":"本次會議"},{"start":11493.887,"end":11520.064,"text":"針對四位被提名人相關事項之審查均與審查完略做以下決議一 行政院函送國家通訊重播委員會委員提名名單蔣榮鮮為委員並為主任委員陳明修為委員並為副主任委員黃薇薇及羅惠文均為委員請同意案四位被提名人之同意案均審查完略擬據審查報告提報院會公決"},{"start":11523.686,"end":11530.09,"text":"2.院會討論時由交通委員會李昭及委員坤澤做補充說明3."},{"start":11530.09,"end":11546.68,"text":"本院各黨團隊被提名人之資格及事任性所提書面問題及行政院函附就被提名人提出之相關資料均列入紀錄刊登公報4."},{"start":11546.68,"end":11551.243,"text":"本次聯席會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定"},{"start":11552.284,"end":11564.418,"text":"针对以上决议 请问各位委员有没有意见没有意见 好 决议通过 本次会议结束 散会"}]}},{"id":"164593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da154a6f2684c0dbacad42acad3a0f8ea62d78011594ec57573e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:53:36 - 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有請主委請問主委吳委員好主委好我們都知道國科會就是在審查我們的科技預算"},{"start":22.728,"end":35.663,"text":"那我先了解一下因為我們的科技預算在112年度是1327億多那113呢就下降1276億那114呢又上升1466億那115呢"},{"start":44.983,"end":49.666,"text":"因為我們現在編列1640集所以現在是1600多億我們看一下因為過去各部會都會提案原民會這邊我看到它110到113年度的核定本"},{"start":65.137,"end":90.654,"text":"他是這麼提的他提到說他要做無限寬頻要增加涵蓋率那他要做友善耕作的養殖技法又提出說那些小微型企業強化他的產品特色跟創新服務模式那我就是想要了解一下主委我不知道歷年原民會是怎麼提啦"},{"start":91.394,"end":116.52,"text":"但是呢我看到如果加上像衛福部教育部抒發部等等他們有一些也是坐在原住民身上的一些相關費用大概每一個年度大概可以得到一億左右那這個一億大概是什麼呢一億在這個大水庫裡面大概就是萬分之五"},{"start":117.81,"end":137.244,"text":"大概是這樣的一個比例那我想這個會讓人家覺得說好像原住民跟科技好像拉不上關係或者想說原住民可能不太需要科技的預算那我也不知道說原民會他"},{"start":137.944,"end":148.851,"text":"的整個計畫想法裡面他可能也不太知道說我到底要怎麼樣去提報我的計畫來爭取這個科技預算主委你有沒有一個建議"},{"start":150.434,"end":167.563,"text":"報告委員,我想從原民會自己提出來的科技的計畫應該是不多,為什麼呢?因為整個原民會執行科技預算的能量其實並不是很高,但是我們並不是因為這個樣子就對原民會這邊的這個協助就減少,沒有。"},{"start":169.984,"end":195.307,"text":"譬如說我們講太空計畫來講我們雖然編在國科會太空中心可是我們是跟原民會一起來執行對於我們這個原住民族還有偏鄉部落這個照顧就不會限定只是在原民會提出來主委這個就是我主要要請教您的原因因為我覺得很可惜啊就是這是由各部會要來提報嘛要拿計畫來嘛"},{"start":196.548,"end":208.627,"text":"但是想像有限啊所以我想請教一下國科會主委您的角色您覺得我們原民會其實可以來做哪一些跟科技有關的計畫"},{"start":211.807,"end":227.116,"text":"其實我們都在進行當中,比如說我剛講除了太空科技計畫之外,我們還有科普教育的,在各個地方我們除了跟縣市政府來合作之外,我們也有跟園民會來合作。"},{"start":228.224,"end":257.284,"text":"那包含在国科会的研究计划资助学者的部分我们各个领域的学们其实只要牵涉到跟我们的原住民族有关的我们也都是鼓励他们要跟诸位这个我都了解因为我只是希望说国科会能够在这个咨询台上我听到一些给他们的建议我举个例子来讲刚才前面那一位提到机器人"},{"start":258.304,"end":282.599,"text":"我覺得我們現在在推動族語教學很需要語言的機器人如果園民會提報這個計畫可以嗎可以啊 可以支持啊像我們很多我們現在在推在宅醫療我們其實園鄉像我之前有特別去強調原住民有特別多的洗腎病患"},{"start":283.439,"end":306.572,"text":"那從那麼偏遠的地方去醫院洗腎說實在一個禮拜三次對他們很辛苦所以我看到國外有洗腎車我希望能夠到原偏鄉服務那後來呢其實他們告訴我說就搭配這個在宅醫療計畫也同意了未來呢可以做在家的洗腎"},{"start":307.532,"end":324.358,"text":"但是呢 很多的族人告訴我因為他還是有一些條件家裡要有人會做護理那有一些都是獨居老人啊所以可不可以有什麼樣的方式那或者是說像很多這樣的獨居的人有沒有照顧機器人"},{"start":326.87,"end":338.572,"text":"那其實還有很多老人家獨居嘛那可不可以我們報一個計畫所有的原住民55歲老人來有一個智慧手錶可以嗎"},{"start":340.859,"end":366.473,"text":"這一類的計劃其實我們是很歡迎歡迎嘛原民會那我叫原民會要多動頭腦主政是衛福部我們跟衛福部其實現在正在努力合作要推動醫療分歧除了醫學中心大醫院之外希望能夠到偏鄉甚至到家戶到住宅就是在宅醫療我們跟衛福部現在在合作推動這個"},{"start":367.333,"end":393.634,"text":"那經濟部會進來經濟部就是有關醫材醫材的這個部分產業還有這個速發部也會進來在這個AI的應用服務好 謝謝那當然有關這個原民偏鄉的部分我們當然很希望跟地方政府還有這個原民會好謝謝主委您這樣說我就放心因為其實我覺得要的東西很多啊跟科技有關因為我覺得既是偏鄉"},{"start":395.055,"end":417.817,"text":"為了要彌平這個所謂的數位平權 數位落差它就本來就必須政府要給予積極性的差別待遇而不是說我越偏鄉我就越不需要那政府應該要積極的差別待遇所以像這一次花蓮 馬太安溪的煙色湖科技防災就發揮很大的功效因為有無人機團隊去做這個偵查"},{"start":421.261,"end":430.556,"text":"運補 真的是發揮很大的功效那我也覺得說其實 園民會可以多提一些科技防災的東西像我們就很需要 人才培育也可以給錢嗎"},{"start":433.353,"end":455.351,"text":"像这些非手的训练但是部会争取到预算要有执行单位因为他不是公务员在执行的要有执行单位如果这些执行单位其实也都是学界产业界的话其实就不能重叠所以我是希望委员会跟其他部会合作当然是合作因为他自己提我就怕他无法执行了"},{"start":456.891,"end":473.017,"text":"這個我們會來要求因為學界一定會連結到國科會對 連結是可以但是你說它獨立的量能有問題有時候跟人家合作也很容易被邊緣化如果不夠積極的話所以我還是希望說"},{"start":474.097,"end":491.805,"text":"他有一個獨立的這樣的一個科技預算那我覺得至少責任感是要有啦那包括我們講的這些農噴這些無人機的運用或者是呢我們希望你們的研究成果落地那這一些科技包括我剛剛講的語言機器人等等我們都希望能夠來做處理那謝謝主委因為聽到您這樣的一個"},{"start":498.328,"end":526.687,"text":"回應我覺得至少我們可以讓園民會有一個方向那謝謝您那另外一個部分其實我也想要再請教一下主委因為很多的原住民學者專家其實他們非常在意所以我才會好幾次的來質詢像我6月18號的時候我有就這個原住民學門的建構來去做質詢當時主委你有提到說"},{"start":527.487,"end":549.072,"text":"你允諾朝原民期刊的方向然後呢跨部會培立專題研究團隊所以呢我也在7月3號的時候邀請過科會的夥伴來開一個諮詢會議那麼他們也給我三個承諾就是第一個會診散落各地的期刊論文把它變專書"},{"start":550.672,"end":576.586,"text":"那國際期刊的部分就是由國際學會然後支持國內教授爭取主持那第三個就是知識培力團隊跨部會討論然後會複資本辦那已經又過了三個月了所以我在質詢台上因為我並沒有拿到相關的一個資料所以想要請教一下有沒有盤點了那至少要告訴我期程規劃的方向"},{"start":577.706,"end":601.332,"text":"那個我們人文處其實已經有積極在進行有關國際期刊的部分目前是因為台灣的這個學界評估的結果是沒有能力現在是沒有能力以這個主題要變成是一個國際性的期刊因為國科會是一個行政機關但是有提到我們討論的時候就是說國內教授爭取主持了"},{"start":601.977,"end":630.461,"text":"如果國內的教授要成立一個學會這個學會要去辦期刊國科會會支持的好那希望我就是要拿到這樣的一個相關規劃跟期程我總不能好幾個月過去我都給我一些承諾然後我也不知道到底結果如何好那我請我們人文組把這個報告送給謝謝主委那主委你應該明白我的心思啦就是原名學術化"},{"start":631.181,"end":649.945,"text":"学术原民化我的意思是说我们不应该只是说让整个学术界好像原民进入而是我们希望整个学术界能够也有原民化族群主流化的概念这个对整个原住民的未来的一个提升是非常重要的"},{"start":650.385,"end":669.403,"text":"所以我一直希望就是朝專書出版去累積我們原民的學術能量建立這樣的一個基礎因為現在政府也編很多的錢在做原住民的知識體系但是我覺得那個進展非常的慢而且我也認為方向方法也是有點問題"},{"start":670.784,"end":686.31,"text":"但是我希望藉著國科會的力量像專書啊 期刊啊這一些能夠慢慢慢慢地把原住民知識生產的方式跟它實踐的一個方法學把它架構起來所以我希望一個月內就是針對我尖關性的這些能夠給我一個回應好嗎好 謝謝主委謝謝吳立華委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"164633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da0e99a945dfa7af9774aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c223dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"14:08:27 - 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在這邊有請羅貝提名人 請羅貝提名人"},{"start":18.499,"end":30.096,"text":"主席好還有羅碧婷名人好我這邊還是稱呼您羅教授比較習慣我想今天針對NCC委員的資格審查那我在這裡我還是比較強調專業雖然說從您先前的投書裡面大家可以"},{"start":34.021,"end":56.988,"text":"約略已經可以判斷出您的對於一些議題還有一些政治的看法那麼但是我想NCC的這個委員審查還是蠻強調專業的所以我今天我想就教您幾個問題首先請教您是否同意相同內容要做相同管制政府應該避免因為不同的傳輸技術而為差別管理的這個說法相同內容要不要做相同管制"},{"start":66.435,"end":84.197,"text":"這個問題很抽象耶所以相同的內容指的是內容的類型還是同樣一個內容 同樣一個節目的內容他今天可能在廣電媒體上面播出了同時又在YT上面播出了同時又在不同的社群媒體平台的播出您認為要不要做相同的管制"},{"start":85.732,"end":114.042,"text":"理想上他們應該要應該要有相同的管制的強度但事實上是做不到的是 為什麼做不到所以您認為說現在社群媒體的這樣子這麼寬鬆的管制那相對於廣電媒體的這樣的很嚴格的管制您基本上是支持這樣的做法我不支持這樣的做法但是因為目前的NCC的內容監理就只有到廣電媒體的部分"},{"start":115.404,"end":143.405,"text":"好那所以總之就是您不太認同就是相同內容要做相同管制然後呢政府也不可以因為不同技術而去做而做差別的管理是嗎不是我認為相同的內容相同的內容它的管制的比如說這個內容是錯的假訊息它就算是在不同的地方"},{"start":144.125,"end":159.899,"text":"好我想回到這個廣電法裡面來談好了因為現在其實大家對於就是網路上面的內容還有它的這個管制的標準那麼是不是應該要和在廣電媒體上面的管制"},{"start":160.699,"end":175.207,"text":"標準是其一或者是說要拉高網路媒體內容的管制那就這個部分其實社會上面有非常多的討論那麼請問您支持NCC應該要作為網路的主管機關嗎"},{"start":181.51,"end":208.516,"text":"不好意思 待會兒可能請主席要多給我幾秒鐘因為羅貝婷一人她都比較慢回答好 來 請說我個人的立場會認為NCC它目前在法律裡頭它已經有網際網路政策的擬定政策和法令的執掌了"},{"start":210.598,"end":215.622,"text":"是嗎 NCC它有這樣的執掌嗎是的 在111年的NCC現在監理的對象是什麼它監理的 內容監理的對象喔還是廣電 還是廣電媒體除了廣電之外呢內容的部分啦 是只有廣電"},{"start":225.791,"end":243.98,"text":"但是在網際網路的部分是可以擬地政策因為這個詞它有一點點大是說好那接下來我要提問的就是說您知道NCC之前曾經有提過與網路媒體相關的這個法案嗎"},{"start":245.873,"end":267.802,"text":"有的譬如說你可以舉例嗎數位中階服務法還有就是其實NCC現在也有已經公佈了網際網路政策白皮書了NCC其實過去一直都有公佈相關的白皮書我們看一下其實NCC其實從這千年來它不僅僅是近年最近一次是"},{"start":269.282,"end":295.537,"text":"吵你了也推出了數位終點服務法在之前有網際網路視聽服務管理法數位通訊傳播服務法還有網際網路視聽服務法等等這些不同的法案那麼看起來NCC基本上他在網路政策上面他是想要拿主導權但是適不適合當主管機關我想這是NCC委員未來必須要面對的問題他到底有沒有能力可以去當這個主管機關那麼接下來我想請問一下就是說您同意"},{"start":296.357,"end":321.54,"text":"您認為經營媒體 頻道 直播 節目內容是不是屬於言論自由的一環所謂的媒體經用權它涵蓋範圍在哪裡這個部分是屬於言論自由的一個部分所以就ACC的角度 監理機關的角度您認為對於廣電媒體的聲色 幻照等等應該是採取嚴格的態度還是寬鬆的態度在聲色的部分我認為是可以寬鬆一點的"},{"start":323.696,"end":334.725,"text":"所以真的覺得執照是要做嚴格管理那接下來我要請教的就是說頻道執照一旦廢照之後可不可以再提出申請"},{"start":339.197,"end":354.595,"text":"在我個人的因為當然這個是一個比較大的題目啦那在過去也沒有發生過沒有發生過有再申請執照的這個狀況但就以我個人的立場來看我認為是可以的好"},{"start":355.175,"end":377.028,"text":"因為氣焰在衛光法裡面基本上他是可以同意頻道執照廢照之後兩年之後他就可以再提出申請所以如果說中天頻道中天電視台今天再提出頻道申請你會支持嗎當然他可以來申請所以你會支持嗎從中天氣焰的表現你會支持他可以重新拿到執照嗎"},{"start":378.7,"end":387.256,"text":"拿到執照就是NCCC是一個合一制所以大家要一起討論好 看起來妳還是未必這個問題喔以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da144f79ab0fd5e9a674aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c223af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"14:00:04 - 14:08:05","影片長度":"00:08:01","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"4.羅被提名人慧雯-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-22","start_time":"2025-10-22T14:00:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T14:08:05+08:00","duration":481,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.35471875,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.26471875,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":45.104093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.47534375,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.85909375,"end":50.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.38596875,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.73409375000001,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.12971875000001,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.01971875000001,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.93096875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":78.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.21659375,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.10221875,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.90596875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.93721875000001,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.51846875000001,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.64784375000002,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.27596875,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.76034375,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.88971875000001,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.54284375,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.62159375000002,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.21096875,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.62846875000002,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.25284375,"end":263.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.50034375,"end":268.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.47846875,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.65534375000004,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.41346875,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.56471875,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.61096875000004,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":291.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.06971875,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":308.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.79284375000003,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":323.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.16596875000005,"end":337.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.56034375,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.56284375,"end":355.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.24971875,"end":356.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.85284375000003,"end":372.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":380.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.33846875,"end":381.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.92909375000005,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.52596875,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.41471875,"end":434.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.32159375000003,"end":440.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.16034375000004,"end":444.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.97409375,"end":447.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.97784375000003,"end":448.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":453.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.00221875000005,"end":473.34096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.21846875000006,"end":477.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.24346875000003,"end":477.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.40784375000004,"end":480.76596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.037,"end":5.704,"text":"謝謝林國昌委員請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":16.311,"end":41.325,"text":"好 謝謝羅貝提名人來交通委員會經過這樣的一個交通委員會及教育文化委員會及所有委員的這樣的一個詢打以及說明是一個重要的過程不管結果是如何都是要來跟社會跟委員具體的說明相關的政策及想法那"},{"start":42.606,"end":62.715,"text":"我來請教一下羅佩提名有關於在過去你對新聞製播的這樣的一個過程現在出現了大量的AI生成的這樣那個文本跟影響那我看你的看法好像是以自律為優先然後法規補充為原則"},{"start":63.815,"end":80.173,"text":"那广电媒体应该先进行内部的规范做好事实的查核资料的保护那实际上我们看这个多数的媒体他的自律委员会人力是不足的"},{"start":81.257,"end":97.34,"text":"而且资讯也没有公开那其实社会上很多人批评这些自律委员会好像形同虚设大家每个媒体的程度不一样那你支持这样的一个自律跟他律并行"},{"start":98.061,"end":118.137,"text":"但是實務上大多數的這樣的一個媒體的資歷委員會人力不足跟資訊未公開使得多數的這樣的一個媒體的資歷委員會其實沒有辦法發揮它的監督的功能你認為NCC在這樣一個過程可以扮演怎樣的角色呢來 請說明"},{"start":120.575,"end":133.785,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問呃 誠如剛剛呃 李委員所 李昭薇所說的現在的自律機制呢好像沒有像我們這個在當初構思的時候好 發揮得這麼的好"},{"start":135.786,"end":158.07,"text":"那我覺得有一大部分的原因就是因為社會大眾對於自律這件事情還不太了解比如說他自律要能夠成立呢他要有民眾的申訴民眾要感覺到這件事情呢比如說他在看到假新聞或者他看到了有這個侵犯兒少權益的新聞他覺得不妥"},{"start":158.57,"end":183.355,"text":"他必須要去申訴那各個新聞台的自律機制通常都是在做的就是民眾的申訴的處理所以第一個就是以NCC的立場呢我們會加強宣導 宣導民眾申訴還有民眾要反應 民眾要檢舉那第二個呢也是回應剛剛的林國成委員的提問"},{"start":184.395,"end":199.035,"text":"因為他質疑我做這個自律進電視的自律委員會然後就認為說一個學者去做這個電視台的自律委員會就貼了標籤說那我就是進的人如果我們的"},{"start":199.936,"end":215.491,"text":"連我們的國會議員對於或者是我們的社會大眾會有這樣的誤解的話他會讓很多想要加入自律機制把自己的專業提供給電視台的傳播學者也好或其他領域的學者也好"},{"start":216.271,"end":238.457,"text":"會讓大家更卻步不前認為說我只要幫這個機構或者是幫這個電視台做這個自律委員會我就被認為是要幫他們護航幫他們背書所以這個觀念的釐清是非常重要的我們不應該把自律委員就等同於那個電視台"},{"start":239.497,"end":262.919,"text":"而我們一般的民眾對於你的權益被侵犯的時候你也應該要勇敢你要勇敢的站出來好 勇敢是有感覺另外勇敢就是有勇氣你要有勇氣的站出來告訴這個電視台好 告訴這個媒體你不能夠這樣做我想最重要的就是我們第一步可以從這個部分做起"},{"start":263.564,"end":287.558,"text":"是的 因為我覺得我們對於媒體的這樣的一個監督傳播的內容其實是要多元的聲音是要公民的參與來作為監督這種傳播的內容最主要它就是要廣大多元的聲音那其實我看NCC的這樣的一個頻道的評鑑"},{"start":289.139,"end":309.232,"text":"還是偏重在技術跟法尊那缺乏多元的聲音以及性別平衡的這樣的一個指標那其實就是需要有外部的學者公民團體的參與那如果說缺乏這種學者專家"},{"start":310.643,"end":337.233,"text":"公民團體這種外部多元的聲音參與的話我認為這種評鑑會失去失焦啊他變成只是一種程序而非實質的多元那你過去也提過說要保障多元的聲音能夠發聲那NCC啊我認為他目前的評鑑還是有點偏離形式的這樣的一個指標那"},{"start":338.595,"end":348.828,"text":"我是要請教你你認為在評鑑制度中要納入多元性與平衡性的這樣的一個量化的項目來請說明一下"},{"start":349.585,"end":372.63,"text":"好 謝謝委員剛剛委員提到了一個很重要的觀點就是多元性包括我們的前一個問題是在講自律機制其實自律的委員如果能夠多元也是一件很好的事情那評鑑的部分同樣也是我認同委員所說的我們應該要增加多元性的指標在裡面"},{"start":373.03,"end":395.892,"text":"就像要邀請公民團體以及學者專家來參加這種相關的這樣一個評鑑的項目好 最後我再請教說對於防制假訊息應該由政府跟民間來共同防範以及三律共管這是你所說的自律"},{"start":396.693,"end":422.939,"text":"他律以及法律但現在政府跟法律目前可觸及的範圍是只有廣電的範疇假訊息已經轉到相關的YouTubeTikTokPacket缺乏這種跨媒體的追蹤的這樣的一個機制NCC雖然說可以採訪傳統的媒體但是這種網路傳播卻是無法可管"},{"start":424.12,"end":440.075,"text":"造成治理跟監管上的一个落差你有什么看法你可以列举出相关通常会裁法的建树但是没有回应这种讯息跨平台传播的问题这是一个很严重的问题来说明一下"},{"start":441.609,"end":458.055,"text":"在傳統的廣電媒體的部分根據《衛光法》的第27條就有關於事實查證的這個規範在裡面那這個部分可以防止廣電媒體的假訊息的傳播"},{"start":460.336,"end":480.47,"text":"至於在其他平台方面的傳播或者是假訊息所導致的這種詐騙的情況其實有跨部會的分工的狀況就是大家一起來防止假訊息請你注意相關的這些項目以上"}]}},{"id":"164631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dabf5c2993316a15ea74aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c223af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"13:51:36 - 13:59:46","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"4.羅被提名人慧雯-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-22","start_time":"2025-10-22T13:51:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T13:59:46+08:00","duration":490,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.67534375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.77596875,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.07784375,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.88659375,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.13096875,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.78034375,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.17659375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.98971875,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.102843750000005,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.24159375,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.384718750000005,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.46034375000001,"end":64.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.25721875,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.27409375,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.27284375,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.34846875000001,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.51284375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.94721875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.08221875000001,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.39721875000001,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.91971875,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.95846875000001,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.83596875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.22596875000002,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.62659375,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.52034375,"end":146.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.18096875,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.71409375000002,"end":166.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.24534375000002,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.64471875,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.12971875000002,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.28159375,"end":194.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.66721875000002,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.00471875000002,"end":196.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.71534375000002,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.43159375000002,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.18034375000002,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.34034375000002,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.58596875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.02409375,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.28471875,"end":277.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.55284375,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.15534375000004,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.18909375000004,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.50096875,"end":287.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.54284375000003,"end":295.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.86659375,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.05596875000003,"end":308.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.07971875000004,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":320.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.41971875,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.71034375,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.80284375,"end":327.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.96284375000005,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.30034375,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.96096875,"end":344.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.98971875,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.54659375,"end":346.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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請我們羅提名人請羅貝提名人好 羅貝提名人剛才我還是聆聽你的高見第一個"},{"start":28.021,"end":45.271,"text":"我要聽聽你對於NCC委員他要用什麼態度去做他的NCC委員然後NCC委員他到底主要工作有哪兩項可以告訴我嗎NCC委員最重要的就是他必須是獨立行使職權依據專業還有呢"},{"start":58.41,"end":80.596,"text":"要執行什麼工作執行的是 掌理的是跟通訊傳播我知道 好事業相關的工作簡單二要第一個身為NCC委員一定要客觀中立沒有錯吧第二他要做的工作就是監督跟管理兩者所以這個態度"},{"start":83.806,"end":112.489,"text":"就會跟他的工作有所連關所以在這裡我要特別提醒你NCC委員不是用任何喜好應該這兩個原則一個就是客觀一個就是中立另外一個他要執行的就是監督跟管理這兩項業務所以你如果有客觀的立場中立的立場當然做出來就會不一樣這個我特別提醒你"},{"start":113.129,"end":128.23,"text":"好 那個因為我本來對這個你講這個新聞自由可不可以做幫助這一點我本來也不以為然那當然因為你是寫者專家出身你對於你自己的言論"},{"start":129.392,"end":146.049,"text":"那當然我們還是尊重可是我特別要跟你強調你可以不可以告訴我你的認為新聞自由能吃嗎你這個態度主要你可以舉例"},{"start":147.691,"end":163.212,"text":"為什麼會讓你有這種感覺可以不可以告訴我有實際發生的例子讓你有這個學有專長而來投書去做這件事可以簡要告訴我嗎"},{"start":164.758,"end":180.275,"text":"好的 謝謝委員的提問關於我這篇文章呢好像是在這個國會殿堂裡頭有過一些討論我也覺得很榮幸因為它就是你這個是投書嘛對 它是一篇小小的文章"},{"start":180.876,"end":200.584,"text":"那我現在去看那個點閱率還是滿低的但是大家這麼看重這篇文章我覺得是非常的好因為我其實這篇文章的標題呢就用的是那個時候已經是五六年前了沒有啦我不要談這個文章來 羅別提名人我要的就是說你為什麼會有這種"},{"start":202.705,"end":219.091,"text":"親身體驗捷的新聞不自由或自由的有感而發寫出這個我要的是這個答案是的…因為那個時候大家對於中天的新聞自由能不能夠無限上綱有一個很大的討論"},{"start":220.291,"end":249.178,"text":"那我作為一個傳播學者通常在這種有爭議事件發生的時候我覺得作為一個學者就是有必要來說明這個學理上的ABC是什麼所以什麼什麼能吃嗎這個我們來尊重我們尊重你來這裡我兩個問題我請問一下談到中天你們也直接批評中天的老闆干涉新聞自由請問有事實根據嗎"},{"start":251.221,"end":276.526,"text":"是的 在那個時候是有在中天的換照的公聽會上那就已經有你有參與嗎我沒有 因為我那時候只是一般的學者所以在那邊我們有看到那不然你怎麼當機立斷也批評人家老闆他干涉新聞自由好 另外一個你認為現在"},{"start":279.1,"end":283.092,"text":"綠色媒體老闆有沒有干涉媒體 有沒有"},{"start":285.162,"end":311.556,"text":"這個部分我不清楚其實我對你的評價當然專業無庸置疑我們當然是尊重另外一個你兩次被提名為NCC委員這是一個少見的奇案我的看法第一個你的專業受肯定第二個你吝嗇思想"},{"start":313.274,"end":338.499,"text":"是絕對讓執政當局百分之百相信請問這兩者之間你認為是什麼一是專業受執政肯定二就是你立設思想跟他們很接近甚至於很超前所以他才兩次的提名你認為你是屬於哪一種"},{"start":340.637,"end":362.312,"text":"我因為不是行政院長本人所以我的發言也只能夠也只能夠是順著委員的提問那我做一點猜測因為第一個我跟民進黨沒有淵源所以如果說我是綠色思想那個連我自己都找不到證據了"},{"start":363.613,"end":390.523,"text":"但是在新聞專業方面我確實是如果以這十年的研究來說我這十年來做的都是和NCC相關的題目那你看起來還是專業取勝啦專業取勝並非是綠色思想而被肯定啦你的話就是這樣嘛那也沒有關係這個行政院長的權利我們當然充分會尊重他另外一個"},{"start":391.403,"end":413.458,"text":"你跟靜電視的關係密切你也當他們的這些主任委員也就是他們智力倫理主任委員你認為你當過他們的主任委員請問一下靜電視風波不斷事端連連請問你認為你這個"},{"start":417.961,"end":441.029,"text":"禁電視的自立新聞自立委員會的主任委員你認為你禁止或者應該要怎麼做其實倫理委員會或說自立倫理委員會呢它是一個NCC要求的每一個有自立新聞的電視台都應該要建立建制的自立機制我時間也差不多因為我一向"},{"start":444.75,"end":459.742,"text":"一樣其實我的問題只是把問題凸顯出來我並不是很尖銳的問題事實上我問了你確實是進電視裡面的倫理的主任委員我不是裡面我不是職員不是員工"},{"start":461.003,"end":487.836,"text":"我是外部專家的身份對 你外部專家等於我是代表台灣的公民社會去監督他們所以我問你的意思就是禁電視事端連連以及對它評價不一你有什麼感覺我跟大家一樣作為公民社會的一份子我們就是繼續監督下去好 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14:55:40","影片長度":"00:06:20","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"4.羅被提名人慧雯-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-22","start_time":"2025-10-22T14:49:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T14:55:40+08:00","duration":380,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.35034375,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.58471875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.08534375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.20721875,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.35034375,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.38784375,"end":83.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.54534375,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.19909375,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.29159375,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.14346875000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.09659375000001,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.54284375,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.41971875,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.14909375,"end":111.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.13596875,"end":131.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.06096875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.86971875,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.28909375,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.96284375000002,"end":195.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.25346875000002,"end":222.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.60221875000002,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.25159375,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.03909375,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.99221875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.64596875,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.71346875,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.14534375000002,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.03534375,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.66346875000002,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.69721875000002,"end":247.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.68846875000003,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.28721875000002,"end":250.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.28721875000002,"end":251.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.04221875000002,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.72971875,"end":281.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":289.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.18409375000005,"end":289.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.62284375,"end":289.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.63971875000004,"end":296.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.74409375000005,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.78534375000004,"end":326.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.00159375000004,"end":335.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.40534375000004,"end":331.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.79284375000003,"end":335.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.84346875,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.89409375,"end":337.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.48471875,"end":337.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.90221875000003,"end":337.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.95284375,"end":369.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":378.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.72284375000004,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.97596875000005,"end":379.02659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.679,"end":11.842,"text":"謝謝主席請羅貝提名人你好我聽了剛剛所有委員對你的詢問你覺得你的審查會通過嗎我覺得"},{"start":33.226,"end":61.477,"text":"妳覺得會通過嗎我覺得還是有可能好 我真的佩服妳今天站在這邊的勇氣好 被提名人當時妳認為中天新聞台在選舉期間為特定的候選人造勢的誇張行徑及政論節目的主持人像特定陣營的啦啦隊整個台都是荒腔走板妳甚至表示立場說目前台灣干涉新聞自由往往不是公權力而是媒體的經營者"},{"start":62.157,"end":85.754,"text":"所以你認為當時中天新聞台在新聞內容的編採上面毫不忌諱地站在特定的政治的立場所以我現在想要請教被提名人在台灣如果一個媒體只顧追求自身的利益甚至只為了媒體老闆的利益服務還能擁有憲法保障新聞的自由嗎你就簡單回答就好了是不是不行"},{"start":90.969,"end":108.92,"text":"因為我們還是回到那個個案的討論好 那沒關係 因為我今天時間也不多那妳就四漢不是那這是不是等於是剛才我問妳的是不是等於新聞自由的濫用是不是新聞自由的濫用是妳就答四漢不是就好 沒那麼多時間假新聞"},{"start":111.301,"end":130.951,"text":"那所以我們剛剛討論的這一個case中天的問題就在於製造假新聞這是一個他最大的問題那其他呢他這個不被換照的理由當然還有內控機制啦自律機制的失靈啦還有他承諾該做的因為那已經是他的他之前是"},{"start":132.711,"end":155.846,"text":"是那個有條件通過他在前一次的換照是有條件通過所以他理當就要做得更好但是那些承諾他都沒有做到所以我覺得不是那麼單純的就是講要防止媒體老闆對新聞自由的干預是不是就必須要靠新聞的倫理和編輯自主的自律機制這樣你應該認同吧"},{"start":157.427,"end":177.792,"text":"是的 這也是NCC一直在著力的點它希望每一個新聞台它都要簽新聞自主公約好 那我再問一下就是說你曾經在綠媒平台上面網路上面有投書有說過你認為中天新聞台不是台灣唯一一家老闆干預新聞運作的媒體"},{"start":178.672,"end":192.579,"text":"也有其他媒體老闆也將媒體影響力當作政治利益交換的籌碼那我想請問一下就是你認為台灣目前還有哪一家新聞台是因為政治喜好或是背後媒體老闆的影響而干預新聞台的運作呢"},{"start":196.491,"end":213.421,"text":"我寫那篇文章的目的就是我也希望大家不是眼睛只看到中天因為我們希望大家有媒體適度的能力對 所以那像妳說不是台灣不是唯一嘛不是唯一一家嘛那妳覺得說還有哪幾家呢妳可以說明一下嗎背後都可能有那其實應該是不只一家就我所做的訪談裡頭就是不只一家 還有好幾家嘛 對不對"},{"start":223.126,"end":248.941,"text":"因為我們在7.26和8.23的大罷免的期間其實我們有看到很多電視台都是還是表達特定的政治的立場支持和反對所以這個都毫不遮掩所以你覺得這些都是假的嗎還是有沒有公正立場播報新聞呢你是說關於大罷免的對 7.26和8.23的時候那時候的電視台他們是不是有沒有對一些特定的政治立場"},{"start":250.322,"end":274.38,"text":"在表達支持或反對其實我其實在這個傳播學界的這個研究裡面呢我們普遍認為是電視台它在它本身在做這個新聞的這個時候是應該是據事實做報導這個真實這件事情是首要的那一個電視台能不能有立場呢其實我們看國外的非常多電視台他們也都是有立場"},{"start":275.1,"end":301.709,"text":"但是在有立場的情況之下他還是要必須根據事實來做報導所以是他可以有立場的事實的傳遞或有立場的真相的傳遞這個是被容許那我再問最後一個問題就是現在民進黨執政的三立新聞台還有民視新聞台這些媒體在播放新聞和政論節目有自律嗎都有符合新聞專業與倫理嗎你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":303.744,"end":317.732,"text":"有沒有自律呢其實他是一個需要需要一個檢驗的程序就是如果他們在他們的自律委員會裡頭有人申訴他們不夠專業或怎麼樣然後在他們"},{"start":319.933,"end":334.805,"text":"這個自律委員會經過處理之後因為我只想要知道你的看法因為你是進電視新聞台的新聞自律倫理的委員會的主委嘛你曾經當過嘛所以我是想說你針對這件事情你的看法"},{"start":335.886,"end":356.694,"text":"是 他們有自律嗎對 我認為整體來說我們的整個新聞環境的自律都要加強那當然還有一個原因就是因為其實他很需要專業的像我們這樣的傳播學者我們進去這個自律委員會是個外部的機構等於是一個連結公民團體跟電視台之間的一個機構那我們"},{"start":358.775,"end":378.835,"text":"如果呢不會像今天我進入這個淨電視輪委會當主委就被貼標籤的話我相信有更多更多的公民社會的或是公民團體或者是或者是這個傳播學者或其他領域的學者都會願意來加入這個自律機制會讓我們的台灣的自律的機制做得更好OK"}]}},{"id":"164638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dac82d340639c9ee7c74aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c22d542c67c48412d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"14:40:58 - 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麻煩請貝提名人請羅貝提名人貝提名人你好根據您過去的言論您個人的立場算是比較鮮明這件事情特別是在中天關台的事你曾經說過中天不能夠稱為有言論自由因為他們幫韓國瑜造勢誇張行徑"},{"start":34.156,"end":54.452,"text":"所以中天呢你說他是在行使第四權監督政府難以服眾而且您也提到中天的政論節目的主持人成了啦啦隊中天是購物台 宗教台所以您是認為說中天不能構成新聞自由我想跟您請教一下我不知道您是做一個學者嘛"},{"start":54.972,"end":76.52,"text":"那在前一段大罷免期間你應該也有看到很多媒體啊他也變成大罷免的啦啦隊甚至於呢到被罷免人的選區跳罷免舞然後大家動員群眾在那邊喊罷免你認為同樣的標準這些新聞台他是新聞自由嗎他是不是購物台跟宗教台"},{"start":79.386,"end":105.34,"text":"謝謝委員的提問委員講了這個現象其實不同的現象嘛一個是造神的就是只為特定的候選人造事 造神的那另外一個就是在談的是一個普遍的社會運動或是政治運動所以你認為電視台成為政治運動的一部分然後去煽動罷免在你的標準你是覺得OK的"},{"start":108.05,"end":116.614,"text":"你約了新聞台不用做到客觀查證只要有立場只要他不是造神他去推廣政治立場這是OK的"},{"start":118.871,"end":140.844,"text":"我剛剛的話應該沒有辦法導出這樣的結論那請問一下那你就具體回答我的問題嘛因為我們要看一下你的立場啊就是是不是有雙重標準嘛那你剛剛我聽起來你是說如果特定造神的話不行但是如果搞罷免跑到一個地方去跳罷免舞啊說要去罷免這是OK的"},{"start":142.688,"end":162.506,"text":"我覺得還有一個問題其實是要釐清的就是我們說為特定的候選人然後播出特別多的時間然後讓他有正面的報導那個又是在什麼又是在這個在這個選舉你就回答罷免選舉罷免是同一件事情嘛"},{"start":164.107,"end":191.752,"text":"從一件事情你就回答我的問題就好我只問你覺得可不可以嘛你的標準是可不可以嘛但我們在討論就是我剛剛講的那個就是我剛剛講的案例你覺得可不可以我要說的是因為您看的是我寫的中天的那個文章嘛你不用管我看什麼您就講可不可以現在您是來被我們詢問不用一直閃避問題嘛我沒有閃避問題可不可以嘛因為你NC委員你到時候對媒體會有裁罰權啊"},{"start":193.212,"end":219.041,"text":"那如果以你現在的標準你作為一個委員如果有媒體他有特定的立場跑去搞罷免類似這樣狀況假設你是委員的話然後他們一堆人不管來賓主持人一起在跳罷免舞說要罷免特定的人你覺得按照你的假設有人檢舉你認為有沒有符合你的標準嘛是不是變成購物台其實所謂的新聞我現在要講的是NCC這個立場喔"},{"start":222.304,"end":249.543,"text":"我們在問問題為什麼民進黨人都喜歡打岔啊主席可不可以管一下秩序不好意思主席好 我們回到剛剛那個問題喔所謂的那個選舉的那個時候的問題或者說韓國瑜那個問題好了你一直閃避問題顯示你的心虛嘛我的問題那麼的明顯我都說你那時候標準是這樣我現在問你如果是你當委員那我剛舉的例子你同不同我那時候的標準是假新聞"},{"start":250.874,"end":268.861,"text":"就是新聞的真實與否所以講到韓國瑜那個我再問你罷免你不用吵到韓國瑜好嗎我再問你罷免可不可以就是特定的電視台跑去搞罷免跳罷免舞說要去罷免特定的委員按照你這個NCC的委員如果你是委員你同不同意這樣的做法"},{"start":269.421,"end":293.927,"text":"這麼簡單的問題你答不出來還是因為你覺得我講的是特定某幾個電視台你不好意思講所以你就在閃避問題那你的標準你的標準就很明顯了嘛對不起沒關係我覺得這是無效的問答啦我覺得是無效的因為我的問題很明確我的問題很明確你一直在閃避那我請教你啊你那時候講說因為中天呢是你是引述金融時報的報導啦你認為中天的主編"},{"start":294.947,"end":314.926,"text":"是有直接聽命於國台辦對吧你文章是這樣寫的吧你引述金融時報報導對吧所以你覺得中天當時呢他們沒有新聞自由因為他們被國台辦影響嘛對吧這是你那時候文章的看法嘛是不是那你知不知道其實中天對於金融時報報導有去提告有抗議"},{"start":316.147,"end":341.057,"text":"那請問一下為什麼你的文章裡面沒有去做平衡呢沒有去引述說人家有抗議所以這個消息存而不論所以你有立場啊你立場就是你挑選對你的立場比較有相關的訊息來報導基本上新聞要求平衡你作為一個假設你做一個NCC委員你就沒有很平的去了解所有的訊息啊那你知不知道上個星期因為周玉蔻說中天是紅媒"},{"start":342.037,"end":355.744,"text":"本來北院判周玉蔻要賠280萬上個禮拜高院還提高了罰金要判賠320萬只因為周玉蔻說中天是紅媒是中共傳聲筒"},{"start":357.478,"end":374.534,"text":"換句話說講中天紅媒的人都被法院判賠啦結果您作為一個學者在寫文章的時候你只有引述你認為攻擊中天是紅媒的文章對於人家澄清對於人家去提告置之未提你覺得這樣子有做到平衡嗎"},{"start":376.687,"end":397.874,"text":"回答我一個問題我那篇文章呢是一篇文章而不是一個報導而且我也不是媒體所以從你的文章可以了解你的立場嘛因為你的立場是你要攻擊中天嘛所以對中天不利的消息你就在引述嘛我最主要的是在看新聞專業的問題新聞專業的底線是不能夠做假新聞假新聞作為一個學者也要客觀中立嘛"},{"start":403.836,"end":422.098,"text":"學者寫文章也是有影響力的嘛學者寫文章透過媒體去發布也是有影響力的嘛但是呢 你就偏頗的引述你要去攻擊對象的資料對於人家澄清資質未提去建構中天是紅媒的印象所以認為他們主張新聞自由是不可取的"},{"start":422.819,"end":436.248,"text":"這就是你的邏輯啊那我們怎麼能夠相信他你作為NC新聞委員你作為NC新聞委員你會公平的這跟假新聞無關嘛我講的是你的新聞裡面講紅媒這件事情我有講過假新聞嗎我在講紅媒欸你為什麼老是問A答B有這麼心虛嗎"},{"start":444.935,"end":463.443,"text":"我在講紅媒耶我有講到假新聞嗎但是我們剛剛最早的題目是在講新聞自由啊沒有 我沒有在跟你講假新聞啊做假新聞是不可能有新聞自由的那請問一下最後一個問題啦可是任何人都有立場我的立場就是堅持新聞自由啊那請教一下 那你有立場NCC為什麼要叫獨立機關"},{"start":464.784,"end":491.261,"text":"NCC為什麼有這個機關是因為以前是新聞局在管媒體大家認為新聞局是政府一塊媒體有可能會被政府影響所以獨立出來變成一個獨立機關那如果進到這個機關裡面的每一個都有立場那這個機關要怎麼獨立每個人都有立場但是在做NCC委員的時候必須中立我覺得是沒有那麼偏的這是我可以承諾的事情做NCC委員就必須要中立而你現在講的都是我做川普學者的時候好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da9f192308dae003eb74aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c2299bb5a3cc09873825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"14:32:17 - 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謝謝主席有請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人"},{"start":15.509,"end":33.677,"text":"好 貝提名人好我想今天一整天大家都在討論NCC獨立行使的重要性那也要兼負責維護媒體的多樣性保障言論自由更重要的是促進整個通訊見錢穩健的一個重責大任"},{"start":34.497,"end":52.025,"text":"所以在這個部分上我想今天有直播那您在備詢但是我想在這個狀況之下可不可以跟所有選舉國人來分享一下你要如何確保自己的獨立性並且不會受政治的干預按照法規我們就是要中立我們就是要獨立行使職權那依照我們的專業來做做判斷"},{"start":65.336,"end":88.821,"text":"好謝謝你這麼簡單的回應那我想對於這樣子的一個回應呢並不能夠很明確的回答到我個人想知道的一些相關內容因為我想依法行使大家都會說那您的專業判斷我想大家都會有所疑慮什麼樣的專業是符合您個人認為的專業還是民眾所期許的一個專業那我想"},{"start":89.361,"end":117.842,"text":"今天外界大家對您的人事提名有兩種不同的一個輿論一種認為您長期研究傳播政策與媒體經濟有理論制度的一個背景那另外一種則擔心您過去在中天幻照事件中發表過比較明確的一個評論是否會影響到社會對NCC的公正性的一個信任我想用比較制度比較中立的一個角度請你說明幾個面向"},{"start":118.703,"end":134.866,"text":"那關於角色的轉換您過去是學者可以自由的評論公共議題但成為NCC委員必須轉為決策者甚至可能是裁定他人我想請問一下您如何看待學者的言論自由跟公職中立的義務之間的一個界線"},{"start":137.221,"end":158.779,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那確實我在做傳播學者的時候是可以就如同我剛剛在回答其他委員的提問的時候提到的我的發文我的發言通常都是在這個有爭議的時候大家對於新聞自由是什麼這個概念不清楚的時候或是把新聞自由無限上綱的時候"},{"start":159.48,"end":173.831,"text":"我認為這個是一個作為傳播學者就是要有義務幫大家釐清概念那個是當學者的時候可是如果我今天有這個機會能夠進到NCC來服務那我的這個"},{"start":175.191,"end":194.924,"text":"個人的學者的工作就是去解說學理怎麼運用的工作其實是有很多的優秀的傳播學者也可以繼續去做的我會專注在NCC自己本身的業務上面而且我會非常強調的一點就是我會強調透明"},{"start":196.565,"end":224.125,"text":"就是我們現在之所以不信任NCC有一個很大的原因是因為NCC的決策還不夠透明大家不知道這些決定是怎麼來的它是經過一些諮詢會議然後經過NCC的七個委員的這個合議制而產生的所以將來我如果有幸可以有這個機會可以進入到NCC我會把握好這樣的一個分際"},{"start":225.325,"end":236.592,"text":"所以您覺得事實的公佈相關的一些諮詢會議透明化是您的希望能夠擔任以後該做的事嗎是的包括會議嗎"},{"start":238.081,"end":258.713,"text":"當然喔那我想NCC過去常被批評過度的管制但也有人認為呢放任市場導致假訊息的氾濫那您認為NCC在定位應該在哪裡是保障言論自由的守門員還是促進媒體責任的平衡者能否說說你心中理想的NCC"},{"start":260.986,"end":285.488,"text":"NCC它應該是一個制定政策的也就是政策的一個設計者那它設計了這樣的政策之後那它能夠特別就是傳播政策那由於現在的整個的環境它跟以前廣電時代是不一樣的我們有很多的平台我們的這些傳播訊息是可以在不同的平台都有露出"},{"start":286.148,"end":301.397,"text":"所以他涉及的這個面向實在是太廣了那NCCNCC將來的這個工作應該是跟各個部會協力分工合作就比如說我們現在所說的所做的這個打炸我們打炸就有國家隊"},{"start":302.437,"end":321.832,"text":"內政部啊教育部啊金管會啊各司其職但是他就會要有一個這個主導的那我認為在這個很多的這個面向上面很多的政策上面NCC都可以扮演一個主導的角色為什麼呢因為NCC他的業務裡頭有一個是"},{"start":322.873,"end":343.591,"text":"加強這個台灣民眾的嗜讀的能力那我們今天發生很多這樣的事情呢就是因為我們的民眾嗜讀的能力還不夠所以這個部分應該是NCC責無旁貸要做的事情這幾天我們也一直在討論媒體嗜讀然後希望能夠提升青少年的這個媒體分辨力"},{"start":344.512,"end":371.428,"text":"所以這也是本席非常關注的一個議題當中那我想這幾天我也一直在詢問各個被提名人想跟你詢問一下那我想不管是對於傳播教育或是政策的一個討論當中有人主張應該對這個平台強制揭露不管是演算法也好或者是內容的來源標示等相關的一個機制甚至是現在的AI有可能已經到達了"},{"start":372.308,"end":389.976,"text":"準備要氾濫的一個階段因為AI的一些影片還有AI的一些照片都有可能未經查證就加以使用那所以您能夠認同比如說像AI應該要標示是AI還是真人這個部分您怎麼回答"},{"start":391.444,"end":417.058,"text":"是的委員剛剛提出來都是非常新的趨勢而且是一個非常非常及時的也有立即的這個可能會造成一些風險的這個AI的這個使用的問題那確實就是在NCC的角度呢他會要求的就是希望媒體在使用這些AI生成圖片的時候他能標示或者是說使用AI做出來的這些報導呢"},{"start":417.858,"end":435.615,"text":"他最后的他的一关一定要人工审核一定要有人类的参与那这些就是NCC会做成相应的指引所以你认同又有一个审核机制甚至是应该标示清楚相关来源是的应该要标示清楚好谢谢您谢谢"}]}},{"id":"164634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dad11786c22e9be54374aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c223dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"14:15:08 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謝謝莊委 有請那個被提名人羅惠文教授 請羅被提名人"},{"start":17.13,"end":42.499,"text":"好那個因為我看到那個羅教授在專業上其實是有研究過日本的通訊傳播的相關法規還有日本的通訊傳播的相關的機制因為剛剛翁小玲委員一直問到就是NCC的部分我想請問你一般來講的話你覺得我們的NCC對於就是新聞傳播的相對於其他民主國家是比較寬鬆還是比較嚴格"},{"start":46.027,"end":58.904,"text":"跟民主國家相比的話對 民主國家 威權國家我們當然就不比了嘛其實應該是差不多的應該是差不多的 就是我們的法規或者是我們的這些案件 對"},{"start":60.646,"end":88.689,"text":"看到以我了解的英國當然就是說日本我沒有研究其實就假新聞這方面未經查證的假新聞其實台灣是相對寬鬆那當然就是我要講的部分是說我還是希望NCC因為我們新聞媒體真的非常的遏制應該是要就是能夠就是更能夠做好媒體的自律跟他律剛剛我們昭偉其實也有提到就是自律他律那不管是兒少性貧"},{"start":89.549,"end":110.166,"text":"還有媒體的品質的維護那當然今天我想針對AI跟新聞的紅線在哪裡請教那個羅被提名人因為我看到這一次在提名的時候我們都有提到在AI的時代其實議題越來越嚴重那根據國外的一個調查其實從2023年開始已經有85%"},{"start":114.669,"end":140.567,"text":"的新聞製作的各個環節如果我們就46個國家105位新聞從業人員來看的話超過85%的人已經在使用AI那超過60%的這些新聞從業人員中他們其實是擔心的就是擔心他影響新聞的公信力那我的辦公室研究整理一下新聞使用AI其實有四大風險"},{"start":141.468,"end":157.809,"text":"一個就是資料偏誤可能會導致假新聞甚至我們有看到身為的圖片如果沒有註明的話影像他其實就是一種假新聞還有就是責任歸屬難以追究還有就是媒體其實也是迎合流量忽視公益"},{"start":158.169,"end":175.395,"text":"最後一個就是它導致缺乏倫理跟文化的敏感度這是四個風險那我們看一下國外的媒體怎麼面對AI那這是我辦公室整理的我們查了不同的媒體如果以我們看到有四類的就是自我規範"},{"start":176.315,"end":192.116,"text":"一個是AI的內容一定要經過審查才能刊出一個是使用AI不管是圖片或者是新聞要註明第三個禁止使用深圍第四個是減少演算法的偏見以BBC來講他做到其中的三個"},{"start":192.897,"end":220.923,"text":"那以那個CBC就是加拿大廣播公司他也是比較嚴謹的自我規範也做到其中三者最後一個是美聯社那他比較不一樣的是他會規範多一個拒絕聲尾的內容就是只要是AI生成的假影像假聲音那甚至譬如說去偽造李昆澤 趙偉的聲音這種都是不能夠刊登的完全不允許的那這是國際媒體已經有這方面的"},{"start":222.079,"end":241.365,"text":"那我們辦公室查了一下臺灣的發現以剛剛這幾個指標第三個就比較就是跟深圍有關但是我們他用不同的文字只有公視目前主動訂了AI使用準則這四個都不可以那再來的第二名是報導者其中有三個關於深圍的部分他們沒有處理"},{"start":242.125,"end":257.582,"text":"最後是中央社中央社有一個就是深層必須要經過編輯台審查之後才能發布那他們還有一個就是不得用AI處理任何個資或機密的資料以防資料外洩或誤用"},{"start":258.123,"end":283.024,"text":"那所以臺灣來講的話初步有這個開始那所以我想請問您我想這應該也是您研究國外國內的傳播新聞相關的政策的時候面對到的新興課題那如果您當選之後那您認為NCC應該要如何訂定廣播電視AI的使用規範那是不是會評估就是明確規範不管是"},{"start":283.745,"end":295.883,"text":"標示AI生成的內容還有禁播未經人工審核的AI內容還有避免AI有歧視或者是身為這種非常具有誤導性的新聞傳播內容呢"},{"start":298.539,"end":314.705,"text":"關於這個AI使用規範的訂定委員所提的這些我都非常的認同因為畢竟現在我剛剛提到那個高齡容易被詐騙的其中一個原因也是因為他們並不知道現在的科技已經發展到真假難辨了"},{"start":315.985,"end":336.097,"text":"所以他們不知道AI的那個身為的影片是可以偽裝成他的親人偽裝成一個權威的機構的人所以這個真的是更何況說他如果今天是出現在新聞上面或者節目上面所以我認同是NCC應該要來訂定AI的使用規範"},{"start":338.013,"end":352.912,"text":"所以就是如果您當選的話您認為就是NCC應該要來評估就是要能夠一起建立廣播電視的AI使用的倫理跟透明標準是不是是的那謝謝您的回應那我沒有其他的問題謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da9367475f8e46704174aa97470ee23d4f88cc85b2f3b90c2299bb5a3cc09873825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"14:22:16 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那請羅貝提名人請羅貝提名人羅貝提名人好 那我也稱呼你為羅教授"},{"start":28.966,"end":47.079,"text":"我們知道國家通訊傳播委員會是我國負責監理廣電通訊的獨立機關那在通訊環境快速變化數位平台崛起的情況之下外界對於NCC角色的期待包括執法跟裁罰"},{"start":48.32,"end":61.398,"text":"能夠規劃及回應產業的社會變化是很期待的因此我想要詢問您NCC現在最需要處理面對的三項核心問題是什麼"},{"start":65.235,"end":88.955,"text":"NCC最需要處理的問題呢目前有法律的建制不足的問題就是我們的目前的法規都是二十幾年前就已經基本的樣貌都長在那了但是我們現在的主要的大家的媒體的使用都是手機為主或者是社群媒體為主網路平台為主"},{"start":89.355,"end":107.274,"text":"所以是法規需要修改對 法規需要修改還有嗎另外還有一個就是其實剛剛也有這個委員有提到平建制度像是平建制度呢或者是這個就是所謂的要他們法尊的部分"},{"start":107.854,"end":124.822,"text":"那那個部分呢他其實也可以適度地適度地做一些修改好 謝謝羅教授那因為這部分我想要跟您看到的是NCC作為一個獨立機關其實是非常重要的是在於一個信任的問題因為它獨立機關如果不能夠"},{"start":126.022,"end":139.871,"text":"獨立的去行使職權包括很多的這種干預在裡面就是大問題我們現在看這樣的一個調查結果在2020年的時候11月份的台灣民意調查基金會裡面做全國性民調當中呢68.4%的民眾是不信任NCC的"},{"start":143.533,"end":162.089,"text":"好 那是因為受到他有不受政治力的干預那我們看到在民眾黨去年的11月所做的這個委託民調當中對NCC的全國的滿意度就只有33%那這不滿意度這個達到將近八五成的地步那包括的是說"},{"start":163.471,"end":184.95,"text":"對於民眾不只對NCC的這樣子的一個不信任度包括對媒體的信任度也是低的尤其是他這個不信任度高達54.2 超過一半那學歷越高是越不信任這個事情請教你了解那因此這對方針對目前NCC與媒體不信任的這個問題那您擔任委員後將如何來解決呢"},{"start":188.653,"end":211.313,"text":"有沒有什麼想法這應該算是兩個問題一個是NCC本身一個就是我們台灣的媒體的專業的問題那在NCC的部分NCC目前的透明度和問責性應該都還可以再加強那比如說很多人都不知道NCC的裁罰裁決是怎麼出來的那關於這部分呢可以去加強它的透明度"},{"start":211.673,"end":217.294,"text":"好 因為想到NCC的問題 那我就先因為你在回答我們本黨的問卷的時候 你有些回覆嗎我們現在看一下在這個回覆當中 你有特別的提到這個回覆當中 我們先看一下你認為說 針對這個新聞媒體的這部分 他是想到的這個責任的機制當中有包括是第一個要先自律為先行那再來是輿論的監督 再來就是法律的規範 是吧是"},{"start":240.82,"end":269.302,"text":"是 那這個地方呢我們就想要問你的一個問題就是說因為您曾經在109年12月到113年4月23號的時候是當作定電視的自律委員會的委員跟主委嗎是喔那我們現在繼續看下去的時候呢您對於我們看到的在等於說111年到111年的9月在這當中所發生的很多NCC的這個爭議事件的時候深造發生很多事情的時候呢"},{"start":270.263,"end":289.05,"text":"您當時作為自律委員會的委員甚至是主委的時候呢對於這樣子的一個回應就是你開過會議記錄當中顯現出來說針對管理團隊干涉新聞自由的指控只依循外部公平人的研究來進行"},{"start":290.33,"end":308.048,"text":"那並沒有針對說你們認為說不可能再做超越這份報告不錯也許是這樣子可是很重要的我們想要問的是說你在遇到這種情況的時候有沒有再進一步再啟動調查了解情況那我們下場詢問是你後來這邊有沒有再做下一步的你接受這份報告你知不知道那這個淨電視這邊有沒有後續的這些處理"},{"start":310.15,"end":331.707,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員的提問劉委員非常的細心有找到這個部分其實我那時候一碰到管理團隊的紛爭的時候我是第一個出來說我們應該要來調查這件事情的而且我們也訪問了調查了很多的員工"},{"start":332.367,"end":357.048,"text":"那在我們開始之後呢我們因為靜電視比較特別你的調查是在這個外部委員外部調查報告之前還是之後我比他早一點點對但是你後來已經接受了這個外部的調查啦但是我做的沒有他仔細因為我不是對那我重點請你回答我的重點說這個調查你接受外部的報告之後那你的後續靜電視有針對這邊有修改嗎有做一些改變嗎"},{"start":358.668,"end":378.489,"text":"我要說的是我是自律委員會呢是等於是像是一個外部的外部專家學者諮詢的一個角色那靜念是特別的是他是一個自律雙軌制他另外有公平人所以是沒有作為嗎是不是就沒有作為的沒有沒有我沒有作為的因為我們是我們是先啟動調查"},{"start":379.87,"end":405.445,"text":"但是公平人那一邊呢 他做的更長期的調查那因為我們是 我們是只有知名的劉教授您又迴避了我問題 我說這部分已經在外部已經做掉 您接受了可是在外部後面的繼續的部分 您並沒有呈現出來所以 好 就是這部分我們先看到了因為並沒有看到靜電視有什麼做後面的改變那我們看看您要求的第二部分是輿論對不對 輿論的這樣子的一個詳盡的效果那我們繼續往下看喔 在"},{"start":407.726,"end":427.252,"text":"這個輿論我們現在看到的是已經有我自己在查的情況之下在以去年喔九月開始的時候那柯文哲主席他有就進來的部分那針對的是最終是他一直到有一個很重要就是有有期許就是輿論當中其實對這一部分天天在很多的呃電視媒體的好都都有呈現出來的時候"},{"start":428.012,"end":450.48,"text":"有看到是有一個小省一千五的所涉及的這個被檢舉到NCC的部分齁那部分的這邊有十三件到了到九月十八號的時候呢已經增加到了三十三件齁當然這邊的還涉及到到的是靜電室這邊其實中間也被檢舉到送到NCC有兩件那但是因為後來這部分就沒有再做處理啦但是我們可以看到的是"},{"start":452.096,"end":469.948,"text":"NCC的部分針對所謂的輿論所創造的效果當中並沒有發生效果力啊並沒有譬如說針對這一部分現在更重要的是也就是我們為什麼國民對於媒體的這個不信任感是這麼高的原因是在於說就算是自律還有"},{"start":470.808,"end":492.606,"text":"包括媒體的或是說NCC因為現在的就算是因為人數不足沒辦法去開會可是他所做出來的一些相關部分的一些說明等等的都是應該很有效的要做這樣的一個說明好謝謝我那個張偉國主席我現在簡單的說一下再說既然在您所說的那三個部分在媒體自律還有包括的是"},{"start":494.287,"end":516.556,"text":"這個輿論的效果甚至是包括的是法律的這一部分那更重要的是那法律部分你剛才說有需要修改嘛對不對包括你剛才說是因為有些過時但是這一部分針對所謂的獨立機關要做這些部分的時候我現在在最後一個問題就是說如果您擔任NCC委員的話順利講說你發生到經新聞相同類似的事情你會如何處理還是要依賴外部機制嗎"},{"start":521.041,"end":532.827,"text":"我就是依法行政啊就是我在做NCC委員跟我之前的學者角色是完全不一樣的我們就是依法行政獨立行使職權而且NCC是一個合一職"},{"start":533.936,"end":551.191,"text":"好 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謝謝以及徐主任經貿人員培訓所代理所長李奎德理所長工商輔導中心參事監主任雲端"},{"start":1399.266,"end":1417.131,"text":"雲瑞榮主任 謝謝台電公司曾文森董事長王耀廷總經理台糖公司吳明昌董事長台水公司李佳龍董事長以及中油公司方振仁董事長 謝謝"},{"start":1419.602,"end":1426.226,"text":"好我們現在請這個本禮拜進的議程請經濟部業務報告我們現在請經濟部部長龔明欣部長做報告那我用"},{"start":1438.72,"end":1459.014,"text":"很快的時間啦這個是來簡要的向各位報告一下進一步可能的業務那我想前一兩頁主要是國際情勢跟台灣的經濟狀況我就跳過那台灣經濟狀況整體現在算是不錯的那到第四頁那看到的就是我們整個"},{"start":1460.223,"end":1481.938,"text":"经济部可能未来的实施的这个经济作为那主要大概有五大项那前面三项大概是主要产业的这个支持那第一项大概就是专门产业跟中小企业的支持五大信贷产业还有支持全球布局后面两项呢是基础工程水跟电的支持先看到下一页"},{"start":1483.188,"end":1507.47,"text":"那首先呢 事實上從經濟部來講的話除了這個常規性的預算事實上還有兩位特別預算一個是因應國際形勢的460億的特別預算丹納斯颱風的187億的資金那主要的做法 丹納斯颱風主要還是在水利的店的復原那因應國際形勢主要是產業的支持包括貸款 還有升級轉型 以及海外訂單"},{"start":1508.971,"end":1515.783,"text":"那請看到下一頁第6頁這個針對傳統產業跟中小微的提升的部分請看到第7頁"},{"start":1517.113,"end":1539.853,"text":"那我们还是透过了这个因应情势的460亿来支持这个传统产业跟中小为企业那8月7号已经开始以往积极开始执行了那透过四大方案前两项是贷款的部分然后两项是研发补助跟争取订单那目前收的案子主要大概"},{"start":1540.413,"end":1555.161,"text":"下面有四項總共大概是1286件那我們會積極來處理請看到下一頁那第八頁就是說除了特別預算之外之前對於這個中小微多元振興發展計畫已經在推動了"},{"start":1556.241,"end":1572.376,"text":"到8月底為止事實上我們累積的諮詢跟輔導已經超過了15萬家那這個我們會持續來進行請看到下一頁那第九頁是投資台灣的三大方案再延長那這一次的延長主要是有下面有講到"},{"start":1573.564,"end":1602.464,"text":"扩大这个预算然后还有交据在五大信贷产业扩张然后它加大着也有加大的这个优惠措施比如说新增的这个贷款额度是7200亿而且也调高了这个支付银行委办手续费的减免然后另外我们也可以提高移工的比例的上限请看到下一页第二大项就是发展五大信贷产业壮大台湾的这个科技实力那下一页"},{"start":1603.991,"end":1618.251,"text":"五大信貸產業的部分我們就怎麼樣大致上的一些規劃已經完備那我們現在就積極來落實所以也有相關的KPI包括半導體 人工智慧還有自身的通訊還有軍工 還有安控請委員參考"},{"start":1620.271,"end":1634.189,"text":"請看到下一頁那針對行政院推動的AI新十大建設的部分那經濟部主要負責主責主辦的有兩項一個是矽光子的技術那我們現在是希望結合產業聯盟還有"},{"start":1635.92,"end":1657.618,"text":"研究法人怎么样来开发矽光纸的技术然后希望可以领先全世界把这个生态体系把它build up起来那另外一块就是百工百业的智慧应用那我们现在已经成立了产业竞争的辅导团主动的去协助中小微企业还有传统产业导入AI那请看到下一页"},{"start":1658.752,"end":1680.473,"text":"那第13页的部分就是说AI方面我们对应用的人才也可以提供一些补助性的一些透过所谓的AI新旧计划那也提供了一些培训的费用的补助还有学习的奖励金的补助希望透过培训以后然后再到企业界真正的有签约落实"},{"start":1682.435,"end":1705.078,"text":"那第14頁就是支持產業在立足台灣之外我們就要開始支持產業的全球佈局那在第15頁的部分我們看到了台灣事實上在全世界的這個貿易或者投資已經慢慢趨於平衡好我們看到第16頁那目前來講的話爭取海外訂單除了我們"},{"start":1705.894,"end":1723.136,"text":"開始有補助廠商參加國際間的這些展會之外我們自己也辦了很多展會把客戶招到台灣來那是左邊的部分右邊的部分是全球佈局我們現在已經在捷克日本台灣也設立了台灣的貿易投資中心來"},{"start":1724.237,"end":1739.623,"text":"服务我们企业那下面是说TIMA这个电电工会他们也有兴趣在墨西哥 波兰 印度 菲律宾等等设立一些科技园区我想这个部分我们政府可以跟他们来做一些合作"},{"start":1740.745,"end":1764.017,"text":"好 下一頁那有關於治水的部分水的部分有分成兩個部分請看到第18頁主要是一個治水跟供水那治水的部分我們還是要系統性的治水那這個行政院已經通過在118年裡面要編列1000億的預算來補助就是縣市管河川的部分那希望可以達到最小"},{"start":1764.797,"end":1778.476,"text":"淹水的面積最快的退水還有最高的安全標準那供水的部分呢還是透過了開源節流調度備源那希望可以在125年裡面我們的供給可以遠大於需求而且還有餘裕200多萬噸一天"},{"start":1781.119,"end":1808.006,"text":"請看到下一頁第19頁那對於降低漏水力的部分也是經濟部重要的目標那目前我們的目標今年是可以降到11.55%我們希望在203031年的時候可以降到10請看到下一頁那剛剛提到的這個就是說水電的部分在丹納斯颱風我們有一些預算來做一些支持那另外就是"},{"start":1810.59,"end":1835.101,"text":"马太安西的这个议题的部分我们也希望可以追加大概就是把那个提防加高加宽的部分就是一个超级提防希望可以追加预算40亿请看到下一页那有关于供电的部分那今年我们还是会增加这个燃气机组的部分那今年预估陆续了陆续会有"},{"start":1838.374,"end":1854.862,"text":"陸續大概會有4個燃氣機組包括大潭還有興達還有台中可以增加400多萬瓦的希望可以穩定供電 下一頁多元陸年的部分雖然到2026年的目標有一些挑戰"},{"start":1855.342,"end":1882.307,"text":"但是我们没有放弃还是持续来增加来进行24页的部分就是深度节能的部分那这个效果非常好就是说都已经达标而且可能超出目标那我们希望把2027年目标甚至一拉到206一度好最后接于经济部一定会跟产业站在一起也会跟百工百业作为百工百业最坚实的后盾那也希望各位委员给我们支持指教谢谢"},{"start":1883.356,"end":1910.949,"text":"好 我們謝謝經濟部長鞏主委鞏部長的說明謝謝那現在我們少一個好 我們現在進行詢答委員詢答前依慣例主席來宣告本會委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們上午10點半截止發言登記首先第一位要發言的是林黛樺委員 謝謝"},{"start":1916.09,"end":1927.216,"text":"林大汗委員這個發言前主席台再請教針對我們剛才議事錄的宣告有沒有問題沒有沒有那議事錄通過謝謝好有請部長請部長"},{"start":1936.032,"end":1964.381,"text":"好 部長本席將針對綠電與冷能經濟要跟您做個討論這兩個是守住台灣產業生命線而且是打造南方的新引擎好 我們從這個水庫設光電板卓院長說若無法處理水質問題就不開發所以也明確地停止這四大水庫的"},{"start":1964.981,"end":1983.036,"text":"光電的核准案好那這個蔡英文總統的一個想想論壇她就發言了她說這個人員政策她用了十張圖去講到我們的人員政策絕對要堅守"},{"start":1984.918,"end":2011.631,"text":"那所以到底這個水庫光電的嘎然而止是對於蔡英文總統之前規劃的人員政策的一個停滯還是檢討呢這個您要不要回應一下這個是因規著不遂的"},{"start":2012.276,"end":2032.033,"text":"核电的这个能源政策吗的绿能政策吗请回应报告委员院长的意思没有要停只是说民众假如有一些疑虑的话我们怎么样破除这个疑虑那尤其是这个水库设光电板那需不需要还平那这个部分也经过讨论"},{"start":2032.503,"end":2049.991,"text":"那我想這些疑慮只要去除的話我們還是會持續往前好 OK所以本席要講的綠能供應有關國際競爭力沒有綠電就沒有護國神山人員轉型它不是選項而是台灣製造業能否留在台灣"},{"start":2050.811,"end":2077.124,"text":"能否接國際訂單的存完的關鍵從綠電政策到冷能經濟我們必須同步推進不能偏廢而再生能源佔比現在已經到12%了而國際市場也明確將綠電比例列入供應鏈的門檻歐盟CBAN的機制更是實力所以很高興聽到部長這邊您對於蔡英文總統的"},{"start":2078.645,"end":2104.489,"text":"这个能源政策尤其是再生能源政策是确定延续的吗是 报告委员因为再生能源的发展对台湾来讲它不是一个道德上的问题或环境保护的问题它是产业发展生死的问题就像您讲的因为现在全世界要求许多要求它的供应链必须要用绿电没有错我们绿电不够的话就没有办法去支撑拿到这样的订单"},{"start":2105.73,"end":2118.3,"text":"所以本席也要求在環境保護無虞的情況之下綠電政策不僅不能打折扣而且政府必須即刻啟動綠電的契約保證機制確保關鍵產業取得優先綠電配額並鎖定綠電長約再者針對用電大戶"},{"start":2127.488,"end":2140.929,"text":"這個的執行情形本身也要求你政府要公開目前的執行率缺口的數據與補救方案可以嗎可以可以好再來我們來延伸另外一個議題冷能經濟"},{"start":2142.071,"end":2156.67,"text":"本期一直倡議國企國運國管國家隊終於在今年歷經了也感謝中油的積極跟我們交通部來規劃所以也確定了國企國運國管的國家隊"},{"start":2157.731,"end":2176.599,"text":"那這個呢也確實的讓台灣有自己的人員安全隊伍確保天然氣能夠到達電力不斷電產業不斷線好那本席要延伸這個議題高雄不僅能夠用電不僅要用氣發電還要把冷能變產業"},{"start":2178.14,"end":2200.32,"text":"所以當前高雄擁有全國最完整的天然氣接收站的體系從興達大林埔興達是現有的大林埔是規劃中的我也非常感謝中永董事長很重視這個區塊但是他的規他看到了這個人能經濟的釋放那我需要經濟部的大力"},{"start":2200.66,"end":2221.393,"text":"支持好而且在高雄是在冷能的潛在運用量會是全台第一在再氣化的過程天然氣必須從零下162度加熱回常溫這個過程會釋出大量的冷能相當於10萬噸的冷凍空調的能源目前的冷能回收率是不到"},{"start":2222.754,"end":2240.391,"text":"30%直接就排入海中這是浪費也是錯過的機會所以冷能經濟會是高雄下一個十年的戰略產業好我這邊具體幾項冷能可以再利用的產業也必須請部長在最後要回應本席是否"},{"start":2240.751,"end":2263.786,"text":"支持與否 所謂支持兩項政策的支持預算的支持第一個 冷能加物流 高雄發展冷鏈經濟走廊高雄擁有全台兩座主要的接收站 興達跟大林埔高雄目前同時有台灣的水產品跟農業加工出口的重要基地根據農業部的統計每年的水產品產值1400億因為冷鏈設備不足"},{"start":2269.17,"end":2291.303,"text":"耗損率高達25%到30%所以每年是虧損350億元的產值所以建議經濟部以冷能再利用這樣一個政策作為高雄新產業鏈的起點在永安接收站建置冷能回收與冷鏈示範區將在企劃的過程的冷能導入冷凍加工"},{"start":2293.084,"end":2308.352,"text":"倉儲物流運輸包裝零售等五大鏈結可以節省每年超過2億度的電這是中油這個算出來的每年也為企業節省20億元的人員支出創造200億的新產值"},{"start":2309.933,"end":2324.233,"text":"这不是节能而是创能人人不该排海而是该回收成经济这是第一个建议产业人人家算力发展低碳AI资料中心AI资料中心是高耗能的产业"},{"start":2325.234,"end":2339.944,"text":"根據貴部2025年的白皮書資料中心耗電是中的30%到40%是用在冷卻系統資料中心的30%到40%的耗電是在冷卻系統"},{"start":2340.624,"end":2369.516,"text":"以現在高雄的電力條件加上LNG冷能輔助冷卻可以節省35%的電力成本也就是每個AI資料中心至少每年減碳5000公噸相當於12座的中型工廠所以在這邊也建請經濟部跟國發費協調在亞灣區高雄的亞灣區跟蘭子園區二期建置冷能資料中心產業帶納入行政院的AI十大建設項目"},{"start":2370.796,"end":2398.546,"text":"將冷能轉化為算力能源打造全台第一個綠能AI城市在高雄這不僅是節能策略更是南北產業均衡的核心工程讓高雄成為全台第一個用冷氣養算力的城市第三個建議冷能家教育建構國際國運國管產學專班高雄擁有全台最完整的海事教育體系高雄科技大學"},{"start":2399.006,"end":2422.708,"text":"海洋科技大學跟海事學校與執訓中心建議經濟部跟教育部、交通部合作國企、國運、國管的產學專班從高職建立起由中油跟陽明海運等光谷航運公司共同建立海洋人員運用學院專責的培訓LNG船員、冷能技師、低溫物流專業人才"},{"start":2423.849,"end":2435.194,"text":"目前我國的LNG船隊本國級船員才34%所以未來本席直接具體建議要提升到60%的國級船員創造1500個計值值崗位這個計值的這個值缺確保人員運輸與國防戰備自主性本席這邊講的這個產學專班是針對"},{"start":2448.36,"end":2476.981,"text":"LNG船的這個產學專班最後我這邊的爬梳了再次的重整本席的具體要求能不能再利用一年內啟動高雄人人四番局的可行性評估跟財務規劃第二個兩年內在雅灣跟楠梓設置低碳資料中心專區第三個產學人才鏈設立海洋人員應用學院海洋人員運用其實他很多元的"},{"start":2477.822,"end":2495.534,"text":"那第二個是國際國運國管產學專班最後將人人經濟納入六大區域發展圈的核心計畫內來平衡南北投資帶動高雄新產業不管本席的第一項或第二項都是省電節電減碳"},{"start":2499.079,"end":2519.297,"text":"所以呢讓冷氣不只吹出來而是轉出來高雄的熱是太陽的熱高雄的冷是未來的競爭力冷能不只是降溫的技術更是城市競爭力升溫的力量所以我在這邊需要經濟部確認冷能在利用的政策方向"},{"start":2519.997,"end":2546.75,"text":"結合國企國運國管的產學合作高雄就能從人員輸出港變成創新的人員輸出港冷能不只是人員是經濟的二次轉型也是護國產業的一環本席建議經濟部在一年內提出完整的冷能再利用的整體規劃報告並將高雄列為全國冷能經濟的示範城市高雄的電"},{"start":2547.51,"end":2571.105,"text":"点亮全台高雄的气守护台湾这不只是高雄的产业升级更是台湾的人员安全部长请回应那我们请部长你将委员刚刚所说的详细说明那来这个不是详细说明而是先回答我一个问题就好是不是确认能再利用的政策方向部长请回应可以可以"},{"start":2572.206,"end":2593.302,"text":"好 那我要求在一年內提出人人在利用的整體規劃好 謝謝 以上謝謝林大華委員的詢談因為今天的委員登記眾多所以我要請 謝謝大家我們時間掌控一下 我們謝謝接下來請這個邱奕穎委員也是我們的召委 謝謝"},{"start":2597.887,"end":2601.637,"text":"谢谢主席我请一下部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":2609.315,"end":2635.924,"text":"委員好 邱委員好部長好部長這個大阪世博上禮拜結束了嘛是那我想首先我要謝謝我們的召委這個安排我們快閃日本不到24小時之內我們這個走了兩萬多步去看大阪世博但是我想藉著今天的質詢的機會我覺得應該給我們國貿署跟外貿協會一個大大的掌聲跟大大的鼓勵"},{"start":2637.024,"end":2664.451,"text":"部長我知道您在我們離開之後隔天也特別到了士博去看趕在最後的階段去就是假日的時候對 所以我們的Tech World這個館其實頗受好評這個除了日本的地主國之外我們其實是在所有的場館裡頭是排名第五您看到這個照片我還特別把這個排隊人龍的照片都把它拍回來這個平均要入館入台灣館必須要等"},{"start":2665.311,"end":2678.923,"text":"三個小時以上那這個Tech World雖然它的字面上沒有任何台灣但是幾乎96%的民眾都知道Tech World管就是台灣管好 部長我現在要講就是說這個管"},{"start":2680.845,"end":2698.354,"text":"在日本這個展覽在日本這麼成功喔有沒有可能我們把內容的這個展出能夠到台灣回到台灣來來做巡展讓很多沒有辦法去到日本的台灣民眾也能夠充分的感受"},{"start":2698.854,"end":2717.653,"text":"甚至了解我們這一次的Tech World到底在世博展出什麼樣的東西我們到底如何運用台灣有的這個AI科技元素文化把它導入在所有的展覽裡頭我們的這三個生命劇場其實很多人看完都是熱淚盈眶"},{"start":2718.854,"end":2733.504,"text":"那當然我們在日本的時候其實包括昭偉我們也跟這個黃世芳董事長討論過是不是能夠把這個展出的內容回到台灣來巡展那我當然要具體的建議如果可以巡展的話"},{"start":2734.224,"end":2752.817,"text":"其實高雄已經準備好了我昨天也跟我們的市長在盤點高雄可能可以來提供的場域是不是這個部長你也能夠在這裡承諾一下有沒有可能把這個展整個展出的內容文化的元素回到台灣來做巡展"},{"start":2753.67,"end":2773.025,"text":"報告委員 我們的確是有這樣的考量所以我才會去試博一趟那行政院也有這樣的考量然後我們現在正在規劃就是說因為它尤其是第一個項目它高要9公尺所以說我們必須要選擇地點還有它的展期的時間"},{"start":2774.933,"end":2788.693,"text":"還有它的這個內容要怎麼樣來呈現所以的確是有這樣的規劃當然有很多委員還有民眾也有建議包括要不要配合燈會或是巡迴您剛剛提到的巡迴這個我們都會一併的考量"},{"start":2789.67,"end":2817.006,"text":"好 這個部長我覺得打鐵要趁熱是你應該還要在這個世博的這個熱潮當中很多人沒有辦法直接去到日本看所以我覺得打鐵趁熱讓大家趕快感受到台灣的這個軟實力台灣的這個AI的軟實力跟我們的文化軟實力到底在日本為什麼可以造成這麼大的轟動我覺得這一點這個規劃上面我可能要請部長你們加快"},{"start":2817.886,"end":2829.231,"text":"腳步好不好那我當然是具體爭取如果可以的話我希望第一個能夠展出的地方就能夠到高雄來我們高雄有最棒最棒的展場所以我們一定是全力配合"},{"start":2830.147,"end":2849.003,"text":"這點我請部長能夠納入考量是是是好來部長接下來要跟你討論一下這個無人機的產業發展這個行政院在10月16號核定了一個叫做無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫我們預估未來6年要投入442億那你的目標是2030年的產值要達到400億"},{"start":2857.165,"end":2880.879,"text":"部長我想您大概也非常的清楚除了這個是賴總統的五大信賴產業之一其實未來無人機的需求跟發展應該會遠遠超過您現在所盤點的這個需求量您現在說這個國內的部分盤點國防部的需求未來三年大概有10萬台的採購需求"},{"start":2881.559,"end":2910.925,"text":"我覺得你盤點的這個量應該是太少太少了吧無人機不只是用在國防的這個不對等的這個作戰裡頭其實它可以涵蓋的範圍是非常非常的廣包括我們這一次的雨災衛福部就首度啟用了無人機到這個孤島去送藥這個其實對於很多這個重大疾病或者是有一些患者住在偏遠的鄉鎮裡頭這是非常非常非常大的"},{"start":2912.214,"end":2929.98,"text":"的這個幫助那甚至其實無人機的投入在各大的產業裡頭過去我們也其實做了非常多只是它的應用並不那麼普及包括在農業上面我們的噴藥施肥播種甚至很多的農藥監測像這個你看到這個圖是美濃農會提供的我們用無人機去噴灑農藥"},{"start":2935.382,"end":2953.963,"text":"但是因為現在無人機的法令規範其實是有一點混亂 有一點複雜所以無人機做噴灑農藥的這樣的一個行為可是又被國防部拿來說要禁飛他就劃定了一個很大的禁飛區域所以造成這個無人機到底誰來管 誰可管 應該怎麼管"},{"start":2957.126,"end":2976.323,"text":"產生了非常大的問題那不只在農業上面在醫療上面包括我們最近大家一直在監測的艷澀湖的水到底會不會溢流什麼時候溢流水量到多少這個也都是在靠無人機來做監測所以部長我想要具體請教你們的442億的經費到底未來是要做"},{"start":2980.487,"end":2996.17,"text":"怎麼樣的預算分布那你只做研發嗎產能的部分只有到你講的那樣子嗎看看我們的這個漢翔漢翔現在去搶食500億的無人機的這樣的一個商機"},{"start":2997.071,"end":3015.221,"text":"那未來在整個無人機的產業聚落裡頭有沒有比較更完整一點的規劃除了你講到在嘉義做這個AI的研發中心以外其實結合嘉義台南沙崙中科院甚至漢翔甚至在我們整個高雄地區能不能在"},{"start":3017.226,"end":3032.819,"text":"在高屏家的這個地方形成一個所謂的南部無人機產業走廊就整體的我們對無人機的這個產業規劃上面部長您能不能簡單說明一下無人機的發展是全台灣的發展"},{"start":3034.14,"end":3059.251,"text":"只是說剛開始的時候在民雄地區它有一個非控的場域可以做示範性的一些試驗但是並不表示說只有在那邊可以做無人機不是這個意思我當然知道我的意思是說但是你還是有一個產業聚落的形成或者是說您現在對於這樣的業者不管他是研發或者是產製你的442億是要具體要做哪些東西我現在看起來你442億是只做研發嗎"},{"start":3060.811,"end":3077.082,"text":"442亿除了有一部分就刚刚提到的就是说我们各部会有盘点的大概有要5万多台的这个需求嘛这是你部会里头的需求国防部需要的量是4万多部将近5万部就是5万加5万嘛"},{"start":3077.702,"end":3093.305,"text":"那有這樣5萬總共10萬部的所以你講的10萬台的需求是政府的部門但是不包含民間不包含民間的需求嘛所以你整體那你整體的產能我們的產能還包括可能要出口就是我們現在"},{"start":3094.346,"end":3120.145,"text":"组成了这个联盟跟国外对接现在也有一些陆续的订单你看像汉祥他要去抢500亿的无人机的商机他其实是要到美国去嘛到欧洲去嘛那这个部分政府有强力的支持他吗或者是说我们有在政策上面在法令上面我们做怎么样更具体的这些政策支持呢因为我们"},{"start":3121.325,"end":3146.504,"text":"我们跟民间已经有应该是二十几家二十五家的这个民间两百五十家已经组成了这个联盟这个联盟就跟国外不管是供应链的合作也好或是订单的这个掌握也好那就已经开始有滚动式的往前推进了所以我们现在大家会认为说我们好像只能做零组件不是这样的我们已经可以在整个这个系统性已经完成了所以拿到"},{"start":3146.997,"end":3151.586,"text":"波蘭的訂單 大概差不多10億台幣3200萬美元類似這樣的訂單那美國的部分 那個Skydio"},{"start":3158.513,"end":3177.185,"text":"我們也拿到它的訂單了有些廠商已經拿到它的訂單它主要是在做商用甚至於說是景銷而用雖然不是軍事用途但是景銷用這個就是剛剛提到的我們在實際的用法上是實際有這樣的訂單有這樣的成果了已經慢慢的開始起來了"},{"start":3178.666,"end":3193.163,"text":"這個部長我想時間到我就不再用太多時間但是我覺得可能未來在所謂的無人機的產業發展上面其實我比較期待有沒有可能未來我們來制定一個所謂的無人載具產業基本法或者是無人載具的產業發展法"},{"start":3194.645,"end":3222.266,"text":"我覺得這個是未來很重要的不管是不對等的作戰不管是在商用不管是在民間使用我覺得無人機的這個產業它應該是蓬勃發展那很多的相關的管理辦法現在分散在各地尤其是民航法的管制其實是非常相對嚴格包括國防部對於無人機怎麼飛飛的高度是多少國防部都會劃定一個所謂的禁飛範圍裡頭"},{"start":3223.607,"end":3250.263,"text":"那這個對於整個不管是無人機的使用或者是發展其實都產生非常大的漢格所以我期待可能這個可能經濟部是不是要跟國發會或者是跟其他的部會來共同討論一下對於無人載具的產業發展我們應該要制定一個通法然後呢對於相關的這些法令的鬆綁其實也應該要來一併做考量喔好不好"},{"start":3250.748,"end":3268.46,"text":"好的 因為我們現在已經有一個無人載具的有點像示範砂輪的一些條例那我想用那個基礎把它upgrade到發展條例也好你們那個示範條例是不是可以給本席一下好不好好 謝謝示範條例給邱委員 謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢問"},{"start":3281.63,"end":3284.573,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長我們再請龔部長"},{"start":3292.259,"end":3315.076,"text":"部长我今天要跟你讨论的议题是在当时候任性预算还没过之前未用同样的议题跟我们行政院院长有就教过有讨论过也就是说我们要怎么用我们的任性特别预算来协助我们重要的产业来度过难关其实部长"},{"start":3316.058,"end":3339.105,"text":"我們這一次重要的是關稅我們能不能讓大家有競爭力也就是說當我們受影響的產業我們的對手他的暫定稅率到底是多少如果他的稅率都比我們高那基本上我們還保有我們的競爭力如果我們的"},{"start":3340.605,"end":3359.855,"text":"暫定稅率是比我們對手還要高的話那當然我們的競爭力就會萎縮所以我們必須把韌性特別預算一定要好好的把這些產業別做一些盤整比如說工具機"},{"start":3361.016,"end":3379.106,"text":"工具機台灣的稅率是20再堆加然後我們主要競爭對手是德國 日本 韓國他們的佔領稅率是15%然後手工具也是一樣我們的競爭對手跟我們差不多"},{"start":3380.146,"end":3395.244,"text":"水滸金越南跟我們的競爭對手我們的稅率是差不多重機重電重電的部分我們的對手是歐盟他的暫定稅率是比我們還低"},{"start":3396.448,"end":3417.347,"text":"好 我們20% 他們15%塑膠當然我們的對手是墨西哥那麼他們是25%我們剛好比他們少一點點我會提出這個就是說我們要實質下去盤整我們要怎麼幫他也就是我們要先讓他"},{"start":3418.7,"end":3447.531,"text":"有同等的競爭力是的對不對就是說我們比不過人家的競爭力的部分關稅的部分我們要先把這個Gap先給他安心也就是一個標準比如說他受衝擊的可能是5%的關稅我們怎麼利用我們這些特別預算一些科目他需求的科目把它補足這個Gap那麼他就會安心"},{"start":3448.871,"end":3461.139,"text":"我覺得我們要有一個標準然後有一個堆疊有一個談論的空間這樣子我們在所謂的任性特別預算才能夠實質發揮作用部長你認為呢是那我們現在大概是利用"},{"start":3468.516,"end":3490.596,"text":"因为没有办法直接就用这个关税补贴但是我们用升级转型比如说升级转型你太旧换新机器设备我们就有补助最高是40%然后还有你贷款贷款的部分我们利息补贴给你但是部长有说他现在未必可以他的机器太旧换新了"},{"start":3492.393,"end":3509.238,"text":"他也可以加裝一些升級轉型的智慧化比如說AI相關的軟體設備可是當他要裝設這些緩不濟急耶緩不濟急耶另外就是我們還有訂單上的一些協助比如說他要去參展我們給予補助而且金額加大"},{"start":3511.217,"end":3528.168,"text":"類似這樣的部長 你知道你講這些其實會讓人家感覺有點落差因為我們現在一定要給他先有競爭力去拼搏對不對可是你所說的這些是在後續的所以貸款才是最重要的"},{"start":3532.168,"end":3543.151,"text":"是 贷款也是有贷款才是最重要可是你知道吗信用保证跟利息补助可是贷款银行通常都会要求要看你的订单"},{"start":3545.128,"end":3564.796,"text":"我的訂單都受到影響了你還要看我的訂單所以為什麼我們要編這個差不多將近100億的這個去爭取訂單除了美國的訂單之外我們額外的訂單也要去爭取好啊問題是這些訂單要怎麼給他們有信心說我可以爭取到這個訂單"},{"start":3569.885,"end":3582.174,"text":"所以就是說因為如果我們出去跟人家搶訂單的話單純只是價格如果遇到是東南亞跟中國的話的確是比較困難但是台灣的品質是不錯的"},{"start":3583.401,"end":3610.553,"text":"差異化能力也很強你知道嗎我很感動的是很多廠商都跟我講你只要讓我有同等的競爭力我們就對東西輸了因為我們的競爭一定會出事我們的競爭就是這個競爭力因為光這個關稅差在5%或是%差在3%這個部分他們的競爭力光開出來的單價就沒辦法去取得訂單了"},{"start":3612.486,"end":3633.339,"text":"你懂吗你要了解现在厂商他们内心的想法没错所以我还说你到底任性特别预算可以给他们多少的期待你们汉布隆东开了很多你看我们有460亿的支持产业可是我看得到吃得到吗"},{"start":3634.229,"end":3650.406,"text":"一定可以啊我们现在申请的案件已经有1200多件是啊可是1200多件是不是真的可以让他们在这一次关税有办法拿到一个同等的竞争力这才是最重要的"},{"start":3651.167,"end":3672.469,"text":"部長所以我希望你們去盤點的是不是只看到說你看我現在有1200多家來申請可是你要去了解這1200多家是因為沒辦法去縫你們這個支持產業的需求因為我沒辦法因為你通過了我去縫你這個需求可是這個需求真正可以讓我"},{"start":3673.65,"end":3700.686,"text":"跟人家有競爭力可以去跟人家徵訂單的一個條件嗎對 所以鮑委員所以我們為什麼會成立了這個北中南東的這個輔導團主動的去了解他們企業需要我們真正的協助是在哪一個地方所以部長 這才是重要也就是說你要去了解他們真的受到影響的問題是什麼"},{"start":3703.43,"end":3729.424,"text":"沒錯你現在460億支持產業很清楚寫在這裡那有需要的人來爭取可是爭取完之後他真的是有這樣的一個天平可以去跟人家競爭嗎這才是我們在這一次任性特別預算我們的重點我們要給我們的產業是有一個同等競爭力去跟人家競爭"},{"start":3730.825,"end":3745.787,"text":"我們的條件一定比人家好我們的給人家的信心指數也一定比人家高可是當我在不同的一個關稅的平台當中我說話就小聲啊"},{"start":3747.86,"end":3773.866,"text":"我講話就小聲啊可是當我能夠在政府支持我有同等的競爭力我就不一樣了所以我才在講你當這個3%的gap 5%的gap這個部分你怎麼利用我們的輔導團去協助他們這才是重要我的標準已經定在這裡嘛我依照我的競爭對手"},{"start":3776.087,"end":3801.693,"text":"的一個關稅跟我們台灣的關稅差在哪裡我不是叫你直接補貼他5%不可能嘛可是你可以用我們現在的一些知識產業的一些狀況去協助他盤點之後去補足這個GAP一個標準甚至在我們金融知識的部分給予更多的力量當我們政府輔導團給他一個保證"},{"start":3806.844,"end":3823.444,"text":"銀行都比較趕嘛啊可以啊可以啊對不對沒有問題啊不然銀行根本不趕嘛是銀行那個時間就要看你的訂單我們那個輔導團啊我就是沒訂單我不是要來請請出政府的合作我們輔導團會把我們的那個信保機制同仁一併的加進去好這個很重要"},{"start":3824.125,"end":3852.461,"text":"所以部长我们关心的是当我们预算过了之后我们是不是真正的可以协助到这些中小企业跟传统产业这个也是我们最关心的这才是重要所以我们希望的是有一个比较直接的盘点有一个比较直接的协助而且有直接的让他们有感的方向部长这个再拜托谢谢"},{"start":3858.975,"end":3859.237,"text":"我們現在請張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":3891.924,"end":3913.513,"text":"謝謝 請阿滾部長好 部長張委員好 滾部長奈清德總統在4天前就是10月18號他在為小水利發電產業發展論壇的時候 自此他講到說"},{"start":3917.262,"end":3943.149,"text":"政府已經在2022年公布的2050年淨零排放政策路徑藍圖他已經提出了包括小水利他說作為前瞻能源等12項關鍵戰略在2030年之前要投入9000億結果這段時間很多專家學者到我辦公室來工"},{"start":3944.301,"end":3956.283,"text":"有嗎這個你們經濟部核定的前瞻能言12項關鍵戰略2025年淨零排碳的這個路徑難途有包括小水利嗎"},{"start":3958.646,"end":3981.297,"text":"多元的多元的多元的那個能源開發其中有一項是小水利沒有錯這也是很多委員有關心的希望的你在你在你的12項關鍵戰略這個每一個都是核定本都是你經濟部核定的就是在前瞻能源這個第三項他前瞻能源裡面有很多包括氫能前瞻能源來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":3986.039,"end":4015.066,"text":"我有印你們拿給我看這前瞻能源第三項裡面哪一個有講到小水利你們講到三項來來來第一項是風電跟光電對不對第二項是氫能嘛第三個就是部長你現在講的前瞻能源對它是滾動式的只要有新的包括地熱也好或是其他的能源甚至於是波浪的能源都涵蓋在這個所謂的前瞻能源裡面這是剛剛印下來的有嗎你的滾動你有去改嗎"},{"start":4016.639,"end":4045.603,"text":"這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重啦你現在給我看第三個你剛講的來 部長你講的第三個是什麼前瞻啦前瞻能源它裡面講的是什麼地熱發電生殖能跟海洋能嘛對你對著你眼睛看到看到小水電小水電沒有啦 水動自衛檢查所以有機會我們都會加入到目前來 你給我看在哪裡這裡面牽扯一個啦如果有機會我們就把它加入聽我講這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重的第一個總統不能夠信口開河你沒有的東西"},{"start":4047.383,"end":4063.768,"text":"你去論壇你對著講所以專家寫者很認真他們就來問我辦公室說委員我們找了老半天找不到找不到小水利那不會覺得總統為什麼他都沒有清楚的看清楚內容我還特別把這個帶來喔對不對到目前都沒有這不就變成個信口開河的總統你要這樣下去就變總統變來爾校長對不對"},{"start":4073.464,"end":4083.876,"text":"小水利是有一個已經公布了一個短售價格是支持而且鼓勵的我請那個署長講一下現在在講的是現在講的是總統在這個論壇講他在2050年的淨零排碳政策藍圖還有12項的淨零關鍵戰略裡面"},{"start":4091.224,"end":4104.462,"text":"找不到小水利嘛結果總統去論壇裡面講這不是變成信國開河嗎不是這樣子的小水利本來就是我們水利發電其中的在這裡面在總統講的這裡面有沒有你放給我看嘛有小水利的有嗎"},{"start":4105.348,"end":4119.287,"text":"消血力本來就在我們政府的政策裡面總統說在慶齡十二項關鍵戰略裡面有嗎這個是你們GC2的核定版就是在前瞻能源裡面前瞻能源包括非常多"},{"start":4121.789,"end":4148.16,"text":"我印了我印了你剛剛你講的那個你等一下翻出來任何一個小水利的字給我你兩個眼睛可以看得到不是前瞻能源他是一個概括性的一個說法只要是前瞻的他屬於能源的事實上滾動式的檢查都會納在裡面而且經濟部基本上也對小水利有提供的短壽價格已經列出來了你政府的功能特別經濟部這每一個都是你的核定說光是第一項風電跟光電"},{"start":4150.367,"end":4154.009,"text":"你光是第一項12個大項裡面的第一項就有27頁喔你講的第三項裡面"},{"start":4160.149,"end":4180.354,"text":"連一個字小水利都沒有你先不要硬拗了我現在只要提醒你總統講話不能夠信口開河要不然就變萊爾校長你們第二個他已經講了你們趕快跟上去把小水利這個計畫把它做好我今天看你的計畫我們會做好那個部長我今天看你的施政報告你的這個業務報告講小水利也只有六行四啊"},{"start":4181.397,"end":4206.363,"text":"你們趕快跟上去啦好不好一個請總統不要信口開河第二個他沒有信口開河他也知道小水利是我們重要的能源政策27月你要推動光電你的目標是什麼你的短期中長期的計畫是什麼小水利後來績效是什麼這個每一項都有耶沒有計畫現在不是信口開河說了就說我要推小水利這個東西完全一個字都沒有好不好這是一個好來"},{"start":4208.117,"end":4234.811,"text":"第二個我們來談一下最近光電板出了很多的問題為了光電板要回收能源署回應說啊 獲蓄每年已經要的追繳已經達到九成了也在去年修罰最高可以開罰150萬 目前條例等待三讀這個跟剛剛那個一樣 我也給他找幾碼"},{"start":4237.446,"end":4262.263,"text":"你們的法案在哪裡 條例在哪裡報告委員 這個所謂事成沒有繳納的 我們都去吹繳了那如果時間到的話 我們就會移送強制執行那所以這個比例其實市長 我在問你 你跟我們說你跟全國民眾跟立法院說你的修法 你甩鍋給立法院啊是我說我查不到你的東西 你的條例在哪裡啦你們有這個條例嗎有沒有"},{"start":4265.929,"end":4283.814,"text":"這個原來就是那個再生能源發展條例裡面他可以做處罰但是他當時沒有特別對吹角他沒有罰則嘛 對不對所以你要修法嘛你這個寫的意思就是說你去修法送到立法院躺在立法院立法院等待三讀我給所有專家寫者跟我的辦公室去找"},{"start":4284.574,"end":4305.532,"text":"阿你就沒修法你怎麼可以這樣講他不是修法你這不是嫁禍跟甩鍋給立法院而且這嚴重傷害你經濟部的公信力欸報告好報告委員他那個可能我們用的文字他是修那個辦法特別把這一個行為納入那不是修辦法辦法要送到立法院刪讀嗎修讀法辦法要送到立法院刪讀嗎你講的條例在哪裡啦你送到立法院的條例在哪裡有嗎"},{"start":4310.634,"end":4333.487,"text":"你去把它弄清楚對我們來修正用語是修辦法那你真的有條例的話也趕快送來不要說你已經送到立法院來這不要變成真也修假話甩鍋給立法院嗎委員我們看一下你這個文字是哪裡來的因為他這個文字用的這個是我看是一個新聞發布我在想他用的文字可能不是精準我們的文字"},{"start":4335.529,"end":4362.988,"text":"這是公視的報導這個不是只有這是公視的報導所以這是一個新聞報導我看它這裡面的文字第一個我明確知道不對的就是有四層餵角絕對沒有但是有餵角的我們都已經吹角了另外我們要修的是管理的辦法也不是母法所以我是覺得這一則新聞事實上可能不是不是正確的這個是新聞報導是有畫面的你打臉是你的能言術"},{"start":4364.301,"end":4391.886,"text":"報告我們沒有這種這個不是一個文字這是公視的報導你打臉是記者人員署沒關係我們在把它查清楚更重要的要解決問題第二個不要當初我們有發新聞稿的話我們會有新聞稿的不要甩鍋不要甩鍋給那個立法院更重要你是個公信力的經濟部不要變成造謠的經濟部來好我們來看一下柏定你13號你有吹哨者來檢舉說光電板的這個"},{"start":4395.578,"end":4419.225,"text":"在戰事區台湯土地上面沒有你連收三次喔我說你目前處理好嗎你說處理好啊我說是在戰事區喔因為卻要講得清清楚楚喔你還回答我說清走的我說你是戰事上面還清走的你還說第三次講說清走的我去看來我給你看來我給你看結果很可惡的是你在16號你還發了新聞稿誤導民眾來我給你看真正的真相是什麼來"},{"start":4422.251,"end":4448.707,"text":"這個就是荷包魚 滯洪指定名台塘戰事區勒眼睛應該沒有業障那麼重吧看得到上面是什麼吧那個是堆滿那個浮板這個 這個我們來確認一下這個應該已經清理完畢了但是我們知道我們在9月在你發新聞稿的當天16號還在那裡啊是 我們這樣子我們在9月15不要硬拗啦 不要硬拗我都已經去看過了來 我再給你看後面的來 哥哥來"},{"start":4451.759,"end":4477.716,"text":"18號跟19號來我現在跟你講更重要的不是只有台塘那個站制區沒有清完我去18號跟19號我在新溫的自風池看到什麼路口旁邊馬路上喔馬路旁邊你就看得到了還有破碎的光電板我拿給大家看有沒有我手上抓到那個是破碎的光電板然後呢在那個自風池的上面漂浮的浮板像小船一樣"},{"start":4479.345,"end":4493.772,"text":"一二十隻小船在那邊飄你除非你故意看不到或者像王世堅講的睜眼收瞎話沒出息連滾帶爬才會連這個東西都看不到這個委員你不了解齁你這個照片用過好多次齁我說明一下"},{"start":4494.432,"end":4513.926,"text":"好多次 我在這裡問你對不對你也承認這次問題什麼叫好多次不要一直亂講話好不好市長精準的講因為我們9月7號已經清理完畢但是後來因為有雨水沖刷或有一些漂流出來的我們要求業者他還要定期循環去減蝕那減蝕之後他會先把它堆置起來"},{"start":4514.426,"end":4529.612,"text":"那至於上面有浮板好幾片那麼大一個你看它像小船一樣那是很重的你隨便飄一下十幾片的這個浮板全部都飄出來喔那個是它未來要重新你這個完全不合邏輯這硬拗了捏那是定位點因為它未來要重新那你是怎麼當初去選沒選對了"},{"start":4531.093,"end":4552.672,"text":"那麼大一個東西你說是隨時又漂出來是不是過幾天又漂一二十隻小船出來照片裡面水上的那個是葉子的定位點因為它未來要重新復原的時候它必須要把它留幾個地方再定位它這樣子未來施工的時候可以不必重新定位市長最重要的經濟部是一個講話很有公信力的部會"},{"start":4554.113,"end":4579.158,"text":"結果你一湊再湊你不只在這邊講了跟事實不一樣的然後我看的都是有圖有真相 你看我是特別跑去現場看喔我還特別在19號為什麼用了那張報紙國民黨黨主席18號寫出來黨主席鄭麗文19號我是想去看你看那個地面上整片的光電板光電模組整片在那邊自模組上面是有平板右邊來來來我跟你們講右下角這是什麼"},{"start":4581.278,"end":4602.823,"text":"阿陸續雨水沖刷有露出來所以我們每天都會派這個業者去巡檢如果有發現他們就會把它收起來暫時堆置在旁邊所以你就不要發新聞稿說什麼你已經清完嘛如果這麼容易對不對阿光電板這麼脆弱一下沖刷就會跑出來但是因為它會沖刷或是水位變化有的時候它會不斷的我們會不斷的去巡檢它部長我堅持要跟你講齁"},{"start":4603.723,"end":4615.35,"text":"我今天也沒有要你道歉我現在要講一個很重要政府是有公信力的當民眾不是 我跟你講喔最近喔 最近委員如果再問問題詢 那你們聽一下才有辦法回答你不要兩個都講這樣子大家不要聽誰的 好嗎大家互相尊重 來 請繼續"},{"start":4628.254,"end":4653.528,"text":"部長我今天沒有要你道歉我今天講的是政府的公信力我說你不要讓民眾一般的媒體去採訪發現的問題聯合報去追蹤了90天他說在10月初到了10月初的時候第90天還有很多地方就是向旗桿去看的這個我是在19號18號又去看又是一堆問題那一般的嘉義的民眾或者是全國民眾你只要這段時間經過新穩定的光電池這個制風池"},{"start":4657.096,"end":4685.735,"text":"你經過新莊了來我再給你看一個畫面下一個你們嘉義縣政府你們發新聞稿16號對不對17號嘉義縣政府還去打臉你們還開牌我們可以講我今天不是要你道歉我現在是說第一個我們那個博定今天最重要的不要睜眼收下讓民眾因為民眾會覺得說我過去看我看都有看到那是經濟部那因為時間的關係我們先到了啦我現在要兩個東西啦第一個"},{"start":4686.937,"end":4704.197,"text":"確定去把它清除完畢好不好清了我們會再清嘛剛剛署長第一個要求一定要把它清乾淨第二個你的新聞稿出現問題趕快去更正我們會持續清你說你清完了嘛第三個禮拜給我一份報告為什麼民眾都看到有問題為什麼你一直講說清完好不好"},{"start":4705.978,"end":4727.749,"text":"確定不要再污染不要再污染我們台灣的這個土地好不好謝謝那那個部長因為委員大家都關心我知道其實大家都希望社會不要有疑慮對所以呢如果你的媒體認為你是你認為是有誤的你們要想辦法去理清楚要要要這才是我們尋答最重要的重點謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4734.278,"end":4758.157,"text":"好 接下來我們請鄭振權委員請鄭振權委員請坐群打 謝謝謝主席我想先請一下經濟部工部長我們再請工部長還有我們能源署的理事長能源署是"},{"start":4759.924,"end":4778.451,"text":"蔣委員好部長好我在想說就是台灣的能源其實確實是大家都關心產業界關心 民眾都關心經常在講說從108年台灣AI行動計畫開始發展之後其實算力就變成大家生活當中很重要的部分包括"},{"start":4780.592,"end":4800.42,"text":"產業 特別的關心所以我們常常在講說 算力就是國力可是問題是 算力它依賴很大的一個能源所以電力也是國力我想這兩句話 我想部長應該都不會反對啦那那個 因為主任長跟賴總統 他們目前也都很明確的說就是"},{"start":4801.841,"end":4827.248,"text":"不排除新核能這件事情對不對那我想說因為我們現在台灣已經沒有核能了已經進入一個無核能的一個狀態那我想關心一下SMR這個部分那目前核安會明年是有1億的預算未來4年有8億啦只有8億那我在想說我們之前我問過"},{"start":4828.428,"end":4846.765,"text":"河安會這邊的時候他提到說這是能源政策的問題推到經濟部這邊來所以我想藉這個機會來請教一下部長我們在這個SMR的能源賽道當中怎麼樣子可以不掉隊可以能夠持續站在全球一個比較領先的地位可不可以請部長回答一下"},{"start":4848.459,"end":4867.19,"text":"邦安委員第一個就是說我們還是會持續國際性它現在的發展狀態這個我們還是持續觀察那河岸衛的部分他們是有一些研究在研究這個方面就目前僅是一個研究就是中國大陸2026年SMR要商轉"},{"start":4869.012,"end":4891.054,"text":"韓國2030年預計要商轉所以說我就在這個部分當中說台灣就是明年才有一億台幣的預算今年韓國就投入一億美元的一個資金在這個部分那我們怎麼樣在這個部分不要掉隊太多"},{"start":4892.435,"end":4909.319,"text":"我今天的關心點在這個地方因為現在它的這個SMR它的運作方式採用的材料等等的一些情況事實上有很大的不容冷卻方式也有很多的不同我們現在在密切觀察說什麼樣的型態比較適合台灣"},{"start":4911.68,"end":4933.886,"text":"這個部分因為他說還在一個很出奇的狀態因為本席是覺得說台灣這部分感覺走得不夠快我問何安慧 何安慧把這問題推到經濟部這邊所以我希望經濟部這邊能夠有一個更積極的一個作為那這個部分你之後可以再跟本辦公室提出一個我們經濟部目前針對這個部分怎麼樣的去做一個規劃跟發展的一個進程好不好"},{"start":4934.306,"end":4940.83,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下那個李署長因為最近有一個案子就是針對那個之前跟"},{"start":4944.62,"end":4970.081,"text":"漁民的一個衝突啦那你出來做協調然後結果法院後來就在過程當中提到說你要那個廠商這邊service一下那這個字眼的時候讓大家會有很多的聯想然後就覺得說好像當時的能源局副局長你現在能源署的署長出來喬事針對這個部分你可不可以具體做一個說明跟澄清"},{"start":4970.581,"end":4996.586,"text":"首先那是因為民眾抗爭所以雲林縣政府希望我們是中央目的世界主管機關去協調這件事那整個會議是公開的當時除了漁會縣政府議長的代表那麼縣議員還有這個漁權會漁會都在所以當時是一個非常多人公開的會議那我們是主管機關是有協調責任而且協調的成果是"},{"start":4997.166,"end":5007.614,"text":"成功的後來雙方也以這個協調去那我為什麼會在這個地方特別提這個問題就你知道有一個簡單的澄清就是我只是要特別講說說實話你出來做這個協調喬試著這個狀態來講說坦白說就很像民意代表在做的事情然後能夠解決問題就是好事啦我基本上態度是這樣子可是我要特別講的一個狀態是說現在整個綠能有很多一個亂象包括我們剛剛"},{"start":5023.386,"end":5035.998,"text":"他也問到了很多相關的部分光電的問題風電的問題都會有很多的亂象可是我覺得亂象裡面有一個很大的一個癥結點就是因為政府把很多要跟地方溝通的問題都丟給了開發商去做"},{"start":5039.656,"end":5060.495,"text":"那這當中就會出現很多很多的問題之前在郭部長在的時候呢我跟他溝通過這個事情那他當時為了要解決這樣子的一個可能產生的糾紛他把法務部拉到一個溝通平台當中來那這是一個點可是我要特別講的狀態就是說如果說我們現在把這問題都丟給開放去做這種問題會層出不窮"},{"start":5062.676,"end":5087.383,"text":"就是署長要不斷的出來扮演這種協調者的角色不斷要講說要開發商相關的爭議的對象我覺得這都不是一個好事情那我覺得能源署經濟部這邊是整個能源的主管機關我們在發展綠能過程當中的時候是不是能夠把這些溝通的動作先做好到時候要怎麼樣的去回饋變成之後招商當中的一個部分的條件"},{"start":5088.57,"end":5108.417,"text":"是不是有可能朝這方面去做避免之後不斷的產生各種的一個糾紛跟衝突是 我們會照這個原則事實上這個案開發案也是先跟漁民溝通好了那他是之前的溝通的時候呢法院的判決他有特別講出來因為都只跟漁會講可是漁會這邊就用了一個"},{"start":5110.834,"end":5139.731,"text":"便宜形式的做法的時候讓真正在做捕撈會受到影響的漁民沒有太大的發言權而用一些比方說陸地漁溫的一個漁民大量的狀態去稀釋這狀態所以這是溝通當中的一個技術性的問題那我希望就是能源署這邊你剛剛也承諾要從這個方向去做我們希望能夠把這溝通的部分成本溝通好變成以後開發商在招標當中的一個成本"},{"start":5140.211,"end":5165.052,"text":"就不會產生後續這麼多的一個糾紛了解 謝謝委員那他這個案事實上我們是取得漁會的同意有溝通好不過漁會裡面有不同意見的人那這些人事實上是在漁會裡面不同意見人但是整個代表漁會的整個單位是同意的那這個部分我們希望說能源署這邊經濟部這邊能夠把這個部分做得更好因為我們接下來還有很多那個綠能計畫"},{"start":5166.633,"end":5193.144,"text":"那個郭部長雖然他一直講說台灣不缺能源可是絕對缺綠能這個部分所以我們接下來要怎麼把這綠能發展起來也是一個很重要的部分那我最後還有一個問題我想請教一下那個工部長因為昨天就是國發會的主委他在針對那個國發會業務報告當中的時候他直接提到了就是矽光子的產業要落腳在高雄"},{"start":5194.244,"end":5201.552,"text":"那經濟部是這矽光的產業的一個主管的機關確定已經有這樣子的一個政策出來了嗎"},{"start":5203.202,"end":5224.648,"text":"因為它是有一個計畫這個計畫主要外站我想媒體也有講主要是AMD的一個計畫那這個計畫是申請了我們Aplus計畫那這個計畫會落腳因為它的這個研發的據點那個計畫AMD的計畫落腳在高雄還是整個矽光的產業要落腳在高雄"},{"start":5225.228,"end":5250.116,"text":"因為矽光石它是會support的這個高階的這個封裝嘛那所有的半導體很多它都會用到所以不會只有一個地方OK那因為本席就特別要特別講說因為我如果聽到整個矽光產業要整個落腳在高雄我就會有點擔心因為目前矽光石這部分基本上就是光電跟半導體這邊要結合相關的一些技術那目前半導體跟光電很多的"},{"start":5250.556,"end":5271.996,"text":"重要的技術跟矽光子的產業都在北部在新竹在新北這個地方所以我們擔心如果說整個矽光子的產業要落腳在高雄的部分的時候會不會造成產業的一個產業鏈的一個當被一個撕裂的部分那如果部長現在講說只是一個AMD的計畫在高雄的時候那很多北部的矽光子產業還是繼續在走應該是這樣的狀態嗎"},{"start":5274.258,"end":5290.895,"text":"当然因为它现在已经跨到产业可以开始可能快再过几年就会有商转的这个机会了所以很多的计划已经在很多的这个企业界在做研发也好或者是商业化的一些过程了"},{"start":5291.67,"end":5320.503,"text":"OK 因為現在矽光的主要幾個企業包括光環、波羅威其實都在新竹啦那那個比方說創威在新北其實都還是在北部這部分所以我們希望說這整個矽光的產業當中不是說整個經濟部就是要基於什麼產業的南北平衡怎麼樣狀態就硬要把一個產業本來在北部有的拉到南部去不是這樣的狀態嘛對不對不是 AMD 因為他希望在高雄我們就支持他理解那可以把這個發展起來也非常好 對"},{"start":5321.604,"end":5334.28,"text":"如果有的計畫他希望在新竹我們當然也會支持OK那針對矽光子相關產業的時候你再給本席一個更詳細的資料好不好好謝謝好非常感謝謝謝鄭振銓委員謝謝謝謝部長我們接下來鄭天才委員請做詢答"},{"start":5355.798,"end":5380.449,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長我們再請龔部長趙委員好部長好這個我再次在談這個光復鄉馬台安溪這個潰壩造成的非常大的一個傷亡跟家戶的損失"},{"start":5382.814,"end":5401.901,"text":"這個土堤 要謝謝水利署花了將近10天這個2680公尺的土堤完成了請教一下 這樣的一個土堤第一個 這個大概花了多少錢"},{"start":5404.099,"end":5424.455,"text":"再提供再提供數字好了報告委員這個土題是一個臨時性的土題我知道那目前這個錢不多大概是幾千萬大概幾千萬因為它不是一個我知道整體附件是這樣的土題這個到底可以防範"},{"start":5427.059,"end":5456.5,"text":"多大的好謝謝委員這個土堤因為有3加1的防腐就是我們有頂塊太空包跟鋼網還有這個5米高度所以整體而已我們評估大概是可以防範大概是1000每秒立方米的量大概是原來馬太安溪設計的一半的流量以一般來講每天下200毫米的豪雨等級是可以防範的好如果是"},{"start":5457.041,"end":5464.88,"text":"如果在9月23号以前有这个土体的话9月23号发生这个溃坝"},{"start":5466.441,"end":5494.981,"text":"這個能不能擋住到不容易我們的永久堤防比這個土堤更加的堅固很多我們當初的防範的能力是超過2040的能力大概是500或600毫米每一天的等級那這個只有200毫米這個是一個臨時堆填的所以是跟原來那個堤防是不能比的我當然 我知道原來的堤防因為我有實際去看了看了最起碼我去了六次"},{"start":5496.297,"end":5524.789,"text":"原來的堤防並沒有被沖毀原來的堤防沒有被沖毀是這個堤防是好的只不過是水沖過來之後是旁邊的靠那個堤外面到那邊的這個有一些土石北巴委員2860公尺堤防從光復一號二號三號"},{"start":5525.885,"end":5550.704,"text":"在靠近光復那一區的 全部都沖毀掉了有沖毀掉 全部都毀掉了所以這個部分還是沒有辦法擋住嘛 對不對是 確定未來還是要繼續這個 是 報告委員我們已經有規劃一個中長期的做法非常謝謝委員指導你們的簡報我都有看到好 那我接下來"},{"start":5555.325,"end":5568.718,"text":"這個是馬太安溪災前60天的一個彭新浪教授所拍攝的當時的水流有很多是在往光復鄉這個地區我們看這是10月10號的拍攝"},{"start":5578.11,"end":5606.578,"text":"你們都挖了這個蘇郡了是全部大 絕大部分都集中在中間了是中間現在我們要去思考的這個直接就往光復鄉的東復村的阿頭莫部落阿頭莫部落會有這樣的一個實際的情形"},{"start":5607.594,"end":5628.065,"text":"然後我們看這個我也實際去看了這個東富村阿陀木部落的堤防沒有壞沒有被沖毀當時因為它絕大部分往光復香大馬村啊這個佛祖街那一帶了所以這裡就沒有但是它漁業了"},{"start":5629.502,"end":5652.082,"text":"这个大水啊洪水超过了这个堤防所以造成了这个阿陶墨部落很多的家户包括很多的农田都被冲毁了在这样的一个情形之下我要说的是怎么样去防范因为现在它不高"},{"start":5653.388,"end":5681.975,"text":"所以这个未来还是要加高吗报告委员这个我们已经加高了跟委员报告现在还没有吗已经加了什么时候在大概一两个礼拜前那因为委员特别关心我们就跟股仲副主委到现场以后跟当地讨论已经加高大概一米以上用两排的顶块来做加高加固那地方的市深大概都同意这个方向我们都加高大概将近一公里"},{"start":5682.639,"end":5704.707,"text":"好 回到昨天 這是昨天的新聞馬太安菸塞浮下方河道急步崩塌 又細水所以這個前進協調所就啟動應變措施當初要撤離的是大馬村那邊的 就上游的地方的"},{"start":5705.612,"end":5730.687,"text":"那這裡沒有頭目部落沒有這個部分你們要跟水利那個林業署要做好溝通到底要不要撤離報告委員因為這一個顏色虎它是一個非常小型的顏色虎經過林保署評估它的流量最大量是670每秒立方米那依照我們評估是可以因應的"},{"start":5732.236,"end":5756.193,"text":"我的意思是說是因為這次撤離還是撤離這個上靠近馬灘溪橋那邊的嘛那個是大馬大馬部落那這個阿頭木部落要不要這個是要評估的是這個應該是在昨天那一場是不用因為他量很小好我們繼續這個是鳳林鎮三星部落"},{"start":5757.847,"end":5781.477,"text":"堤防被沖毀了是 堤防被沖毀了我也親自去看了所以在這樣的一個情形之下這個地方還有這附近是沒有家戶了是農田所以這個部分也要積極的來去處理報告委員 這個我們已經在做了我們在做一些復建的工作是 非常謝謝委員因為這裡已經涉及到"},{"start":5782.861,"end":5808.497,"text":"马太安溪还有光复溪还有什么望龙溪是所以已经到这个花莲溪了嘛对对对这我们有在作业它会更大谢谢委员指导我们有在作业所以这样的一个情形之下那这个是建英桥的上方而已建英桥的刚上游这里面也有破口所以造成了这边的一个"},{"start":5809.017,"end":5835.188,"text":"一个损害所以我讲的意思是说他因为到了花莲西他已经是更多的西过来了更多西所以这里面相关的提防的相关的这些报告委员我们在这一次除了马太安西以外大概有八到十个地方都有冲毁我们都会赶在明年四月底全部完成那现在有时间我们都陆续再执行以上报告"},{"start":5835.788,"end":5847.694,"text":"好 因為這個真的是衝得很大連這個阿頭墨部落的這個福德寺福德寺是吧 那個念詞嘛 福德寺"},{"start":5849.513,"end":5875.427,"text":"都冲到接音桥冲到接音桥的上游所以这是表示它非常的严重所以继续努力是 我们会把相关的照片再给委员参佐你们现在新的进度也提供好 是 我们会来努力谢谢委员好 谢谢曾天才委员谢谢部长接下来我们请谢义凤委员曾天才来一下"},{"start":5878.313,"end":5894.18,"text":"請鄭一鋒委員 謝一鋒委員請做詢談好 謝謝主席 我想要請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":5901.023,"end":5924.736,"text":"謝委員好部長我想請教一下就是現在大家還是最關注的就是關稅的問題那到底美國關稅會不會有可能從28%降到15%你有沒有信心我們持續的努力當中方向上還是你被壽命不可以講你不可以爆點"},{"start":5926.198,"end":5949.368,"text":"是不是你不会抱院长的梗还是抱总统的梗不是因为这个是我们努力的目标15%是你努力的目标是不是是整个这个谈判团队本来就努力的目标嘛那对美的投资是3000亿还是4000亿这个我就没有办法知道对"},{"start":5950.456,"end":5969.014,"text":"是嗎政府部門公部門因為投資的部分還是由民間對 主要是民間為主台積電相關的台積電是其中之一還有生態系是不是還有EMS AI Server的一些廠商"},{"start":5970.351,"end":5984.161,"text":"所以還有EMS AI Server的廠商都會去是不是對 他們有這樣的表達他們原來就在墨西哥那所以台灣廠商赴美投資有可能就是會超過三千億囉"},{"start":5986.644,"end":6000.679,"text":"這個就要看廠商的盤點了拜託 你們早就在統計了是不是 經濟部一定都在統計啦是 但是這個還是個別廠商還是由個別廠商來宣布比較妥當"},{"start":6001.69,"end":6030.179,"text":"那川普說台積電的你不用管那你台積電以外的相關的工業那麼多你進一步管不到嗎是不是所以那未來我們是支持他們的未來我是說未來那整體我們對美投資就是以台積電為主的這樣子的相關策略到底是決定在台灣還是決定在美國"},{"start":6031.479,"end":6051.5,"text":"决定在台积电是不是决定在台湾台积电对以台湾为主是不是当然了立足台湾布局全球对是以台积电为主是不是会不会就是因为大家在担心的就是台积电会不会变成美积电不会是不是绝对不会"},{"start":6052.45,"end":6078.776,"text":"你要做出什么样的做法你有什么样的做法让它不会变成美积电跟委员报告台积电事实上最多的产能最先进的技术最占钱的厂全部都在台湾所以它在台湾会持续地投资而且台积电的董事长魏哲嘉先生他也不断地说在台湾的投资的进程都没有改变比如说它在"},{"start":6080.697,"end":6106.29,"text":"高雄的部分但是台中的部分竹科的部分我知道這個已經宣布的部分這個東西你已經說了就是說台灣既有的以及就是供應全球的還有我們N-1帶的嘛這個東西對不對但是我們有一個問題是去年的數字看起來我們台人赴美去工作就高達了12.8萬人"},{"start":6109.534,"end":6125.775,"text":"那代表了就是是歷史新高喔那代表了整個就是半導體的相關的供應鏈鳳梅的確造成了我們人才外移的這樣一個現象你怎麼樣子減緩"},{"start":6127.612,"end":6142.559,"text":"包委員據我了解就是說昨天國發會主委他說他說他的朋友也常常就是在台積電工作他們都不想去美國啊那可是問題是如果整個供應鏈"},{"start":6143.76,"end":6170.939,"text":"就是说都往美国去的时候那我们台湾的人才怎么留在本地然后我们又希望吸引AI的相关的业者厂商进台湾来那要把整个AI未来的供应链都放在台湾能够让它在台湾落脚那在这样子的情况下如果我们的人才一直外移那怎么样子"},{"start":6171.539,"end":6186.939,"text":"能夠確保我們台灣未來在AI的發展上有相關的競爭力呢報告委員通常人才做全球布局它是循環性的先前的幹部比如說他建廠的時候他一定把他會蓋廠的這個"},{"start":6189.202,"end":6208.295,"text":"這個VP也好或是什麼先派去嘛等到他搶蓋了以後他會調回來的或是先前幹部他會先在那邊做處理處理完以後他會回來所以說他人才會一直循環的不會一直待在那邊所以你認為12.8萬是高峰會不會再更高"},{"start":6209.315,"end":6226.226,"text":"這個數據我可能要會不會再更高去年12月的12.8萬是不是高峰我可能要再了解一下未來會不會往下降因為我不了解這12萬到底它的內涵是怎麼樣我可能要再了解一下才能跟您報告"},{"start":6227.375,"end":6247.063,"text":"所以你也不確定可是我們必須要解決的就是我們的人才外流的這個情況但是我們現在為了招攬國外人才是非常非常的積極的所以有很多包括剛才有很多的外商來這裡設立研發中心我們也期待說他把"},{"start":6248.343,"end":6272.592,"text":"有什麼外商來設立研發中心有啊 包括NVIDIA AMD啊這個重要的廠商都是啊還有微軟啊 Google啊美光啊這些都是啊就是它會帶動就是他們會有他們會有部分的是從外國來的嘛可是他們其實還是期待我們台灣能夠協助他們就是高階的人才啊"},{"start":6273.032,"end":6288.209,"text":"他只有部分啦是啊是啊我們去美國投資也是要應用當地的人才啊對啊 也是希望啊所以這個有幾樣的道理啊所以台積電的就是說在美社廠的會讓美國的台積電的人才來台灣受訓是不是"},{"start":6289.808,"end":6312.562,"text":"有一部分好像會是這樣子是不是來台灣受訓對會會不會還有昨天我們去車撤中心那看到了就是一些車用電子的部分還有就是汽車零組件的那在這一次的美國關稅當中其實汽車零組件受創的也非常嚴重那未來"},{"start":6313.843,"end":6336.569,"text":"我們怎麼樣子協助這些汽車零組件能夠擴大就是說海外的市場那當然除了美國以外其他地區以我們半導體就是ICT相關的這樣子的一個領先的技術有沒有辦法協助我們國內的廠商搶到國際的訂單 有沒有"},{"start":6340.675,"end":6359.646,"text":"報告委員我們的汽車零組件主要是aftermarket就是說等於是維修換零件那是我們非常強這個模式跟其他的競爭對手比較不一樣像韓國跟日本他們主要的零組件區域那邊供應是要組裝成乘車的他不是"},{"start":6360.226,"end":6385.332,"text":"不是经营这个aftermarket的那我们是所以市场上是有一点点区隔的但是免不了因为你关税提升还是会受到伤害所以我们尽量帮可能可以脱销市场或是贷款上可以利息的减免或者是他用AI的技术来提升他的这个研发也好或者是转型也好这个我们也都会来支持那自驾车的部分呢自驾车的部分呢"},{"start":6386.739,"end":6397.871,"text":"自駕車你說無人自駕車無人自駕車我們現在還在實行那無人自駕的汽車零件呢示範當中對美的部分我們有辦法嗎"},{"start":6399.29,"end":6418.287,"text":"我们现在是有导入部分的这个零组件是在美国的就是它在次系统里面的零组件而已我们可能现在次系统的部分可能还是在做示范性实验对像ASDA相关的我们有办法打进去吗"},{"start":6418.647,"end":6430.588,"text":"我們現在當然希望就是透過這個經濟部兩個署他們的這個計畫不管是業界科專或法蘭科專就希望把這個次系統的部分把它"},{"start":6431.53,"end":6455.058,"text":"把它做起來了你才有辦法去出口到別的國家去把它模組以後出口到別的國家去是比較好的那上一次你說到了稀土是不會影響但是其實稀土還是有可能影響到我們的對不對我們半導體還有相關的無人機的相關的發展嗎"},{"start":6455.618,"end":6475.278,"text":"会不会会间接的影响会尤其是无人机因为它用的这个吸毒比较是泳池性的相关那导致制造业的部分因为半导体的部分导致它现在这一次禁止的部分是没有半导体制成那个部分需要的是是啊"},{"start":6475.538,"end":6488.266,"text":"跟藍這個稀土它是沒有進的是比較好但是那個部分所以我才說我們自己還是要有警覺自己透過回收的方式也好或者是我們開始做精煉或者是"},{"start":6490.411,"end":6508.8,"text":"有一个保存量我们自己供应的保存量希望在2030年可以满足我们自己的三分之一以上的一些需求我们还是会做那国际供应链的部分因为我们本来是国际供应链的需求者所以我们也会配合国际供应链的相关的一些调整的做法好谢谢"},{"start":6517.608,"end":6527.056,"text":"現在我們請召委 楊瓊瑩答詢謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言 邀請工部長召委好"},{"start":6540.168,"end":6562.785,"text":"工部長 依據國貿署最新向工會轉資的公文他說美國商務部正嚴寧工具機產業納入232國安條款的調查未來有可能再以國安為由來課徵額外的關稅對台灣的工具機造成了20%在家疊加關稅"},{"start":6566.415,"end":6589.202,"text":"而且这个N不知道是多少这个可以说是让我们工具机的产业又是新一波的冲击又在10月19号的报道台中产业园区产办役主的件数它是增加的这个月我们增加了将近20件工厂代售案"},{"start":6590.413,"end":6609.359,"text":"所以這些廠房多屬於工具機的相關產業顯示工具機在這段時間是急凍政府目前是聚焦在半導體跟AI產業幾乎是忽視了美方已將國安"},{"start":6610.259,"end":6629.94,"text":"的视角延伸触及到实际的实体的制造业所以政府对于整个供应链的战略变化警觉性似乎是严重的不足所以我本期要在这边请教面对供居基产业被纳入所谓的232国安条款的调查"},{"start":6630.841,"end":6639.626,"text":"經濟部你是不是做好了這個評估要將整體性的出口的一個衝擊產業鏈的關鍵影響度究竟我們要如何的來應對這個效應尤其匯率跟關稅是製造業當中的生死線"},{"start":6650.991,"end":6671.429,"text":"匯率跟關稅那政府如果沒有作為全盤的一個戰略供給機的產業勢必會成為國際博弈下的犧牲品請部長說明我想委員也有觀察到現在的確美國他把對等關稅的某些項目"},{"start":6672.185,"end":6690.095,"text":"慢慢的有些項目移到232去的確是這樣不過供需區它是有這樣的說法不過232基本上它有一個調查的程序通常那個調查程序要高達可能幾個月三個月或六個月然後才會公布它可能的一些部長 我們已經從四月份"},{"start":6691.598,"end":6715.063,"text":"美台開始談的時候政府第一時間叫我們好好睡覺到現在 到8月份告訴我們20加疊加關稅到現在告訴我們說10月底大概會有一個方向不知道是不是如此所以昨天總統到了我們的會展中心第一展手工具總統先生也在現場說了"},{"start":6716.943,"end":6740.288,"text":"近期很快會有好的報告而且會低於20%的關稅而且是不疊加所以我再一次請教既然說本期當然是充分因為中部地區都是我們的工具機 手工具這些機械類別的扣件等零組件都是在我們這裡我們非常緊張"},{"start":6742.228,"end":6764.501,"text":"所有的產業界非常的憂心你還要告訴我們說只有調查還要幾個月那你也明明知道說你也明明知道說現在列入那到底我們政府第一個請教政府昨天總統先生在我們台中會展中心所說的是不是陳儒總統先生所說的"},{"start":6768.507,"end":6777.169,"text":"公布的關稅會低於20%會不會這個本來就是我們努力的方向會低於20%而且是我們正面的方向第二個不會再疊加對 這個也是我們努力的方向總統先生昨天就這麼說了說很快會告訴我們這個好的消息那你身為部長啊這個是你最重要的幕僚啊是不是誠如總統先生所說的"},{"start":6795.427,"end":6816.961,"text":"那這個很快是什麼時候原本告訴我們是10月那10月底會不會告訴我們報告委員因為還是11月因為最後的這個叫做最終談判事實上還要看美國的時間跟我們的時間因為美國最近又碰到APEC現在正在進行當中所以美國還有他們要去東協"},{"start":6819.022,"end":6834.911,"text":"有开会部长 人民很乖 产业很乖产业希望政府当他们的靠山大家都很乖 很努力在做事因为您之前政府告诉我们大概这个暂时禁关税大约10月"},{"start":6835.831,"end":6853.688,"text":"所以當然10月已經現在已經22號了那所以我們一定要請教目前的進度到底是怎麼樣呢技術性的談判大概都已經確認了那最終就是等於是最後的這個所以請教今天10月22號10月底會不會有像總統說的很快會給我們好的訊息 會不會"},{"start":6856.39,"end":6869.837,"text":"這個主要還是要看美國的時間所以你還是沒有辦法給本席這個時間我告訴你因為以我們的工具機產業為例日元它的匯兌美元匯率五年來它貶了多少 42.4"},{"start":6871.778,"end":6894.91,"text":"那我方我們新台幣最貶的是3.6億%所以如果再加上美國對日本的對等關稅他們是15%我們是20%還要再加疊加在這樣的情況之下我們的差距大概10%那導致日本的機器會比台灣的機器它的價格會便宜20%到30%這個就是主要"},{"start":6898.452,"end":6914.984,"text":"為什麼我們的產業這麼樣的被冷凍所以我極度嚴厲的要求政府你對於我們這些傳統產業實體的產業你務必要加強去關心去應對是不是 是"},{"start":6916.706,"end":6937.307,"text":"這460億一定都是用在傳產上面說老實話不夠絕對會不夠因為這一些預算從一開始發生事情的時候我們在野就馬上提出要政府編列振興經濟方案怎麼樣來協助我們的產業對不對如果不夠的話我們還有200億可以再提出來就是部長我還是誠心您是專家"},{"start":6939.724,"end":6966.402,"text":"本席認為產業要聽的是政府的政策政府的方向政府的時程這非常的重要因為總統先生昨天就已經這麼說了到現在你是經濟部長還沒辦法告訴我們那最後本席再請教您的解讀是不是賴總統所說的也就是不會宣布的時候20%的關稅會比20%更低是不是方向上是這樣"},{"start":6967.526,"end":6985.621,"text":"不會疊加關稅是不是方向上原則上在10月底還是11月可以告訴國人是不是如此這個也是我們努力的目標因為產業我相信你也非常清楚等不及了我到底要不要接單我們也是很努力到底要不要接單不是你們努力的問題而是你要傾聽產業的心聲"},{"start":6987.923,"end":7007.717,"text":"我到底要不要接單我到底要不要投資因為我要告訴你在金管會到8月底國營對中小企業的放款10.7兆裡頭雖然叫7月份增加了242億但是是創下重點在這裡創下了7年來同期最低"},{"start":7008.778,"end":7011.379,"text":"現在他們怎麼樣呢只有還錢保生如果我們的產業是這種方式那我們的競爭力在哪裡呢我們的產業到底該怎麼樣的方向呢實際上的數字告訴你是如此啊對我們前幾個禮拜也帶了供給機業者去參加德國漢恩威的這個這是本席要求政府必須要"},{"start":7032.776,"end":7042.81,"text":"好好的做產業的靠山 對不對所以你如果只有戒心來減少還舊沒有加速 只有還舊加速沒有人加救啊只有還錢保生啊"},{"start":7049.365,"end":7065.152,"text":"你用數字去看啊就是我們對於我們的政策我們的政府沒有信心才會如此嗎所以用實際的數字告訴你本席具體要求你們必須要好好針對我們的傳統產業我們的實體產業96%的勞動業者勞動員工都在這裡你要好好的來照顧嘛對不對"},{"start":7084.619,"end":7088.36,"text":"好 接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做巡檔 謝謝周委好 首先有請我們經濟部龔部長好 我們再請龔部長周委好 龔部長好"},{"start":7111.604,"end":7129.925,"text":"你今天的经济部的业务报告这一本写得非常清楚明了那我首先就就教你经济业务报告里面就以关于苗栗的事情那我再请我们水利署的林署长水利署林署长"},{"start":7137.992,"end":7159.71,"text":"現在要建一個水庫非常困難報告部長你們林市長的溝通能力非常好他對拜訪苗栗縣然後要如何建水庫把那些相信說服的都說歡迎趕快來建但是我今天看你們的關於天花湖水庫的預算都沒有編"},{"start":7160.932,"end":7168.287,"text":"林市長你不要只聞樓梯響不見人蹤影你不要去騙我們地方的鄉親為什麼沒有編列預算"},{"start":7172.678,"end":7201.918,"text":"包括我们委员你沟通能力好但是我是看你人脸实在应该讲话不会骗我才对对 委员因为这个你很关心那我跟您报告其实都有在进展现在天然汽水库我们预计年底这边就会开始来呈报行政院来走后续的程序是今年年底还是明年年底今年年底好啊 你报告需要给我小的不然人家再问我都不晓得怎么回答是 这个也是我们列为重点工作部长 要不要全力的支持"},{"start":7202.658,"end":7204.739,"text":"我請台電的曾董事長我們請台電曾董事長"},{"start":7231.417,"end":7245.531,"text":"因為我節目一條一條給你們那個尊董事長我看到你一個報告說未來台灣AI的大四季中心最好建在電廠的附近你有這樣的報導有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":7246.498,"end":7261.465,"text":"我是說要建在電源端那電源端就是電廠要建在哪裡電源端電源就是電廠的附近嘛好那今天這個部長我是地方產業我們那邊有苗栗通宵火栗花電廠"},{"start":7262.871,"end":7285.053,"text":"在苗栗 我們也準備要來設立AI大四季的中心到那邊那邊是所有台中以北土地最便宜而且最適合條件如果我們提出來 經濟部要不要支持我們你們台電董事長說大四季中心最好建在電廠的附近要給我們支持嗎"},{"start":7289.008,"end":7301.22,"text":"包委員因為這個數據中心有分兩個部分一個是公家的最多的是私人部門的那私人部門的公家私人的話在那邊是最好的"},{"start":7302.199,"end":7319.074,"text":"我把它從台中以北算一算設在苗栗最好的不曉得你答話還是要設在南部等一下我還有問題要問不要一面的往南邊跑你都照顧苗栗我看你我當到經濟委員會看你一直在做"},{"start":7319.995,"end":7338.984,"text":"大觀而且是當朝的紅人啊但是我覺得你沒有在幫我們苗栗幫忙你說往南部啊我去苗栗不是 我今天這個重點講得很簡單如果我們苗栗有火力發電廠我們要設立台中以北的大四季中心"},{"start":7340,"end":7355.028,"text":"你們要不要全力支持因為現在大蘇區中心是國科會在你們以前連講說北部不能再設了我只要抓緊這個區區因為電的供應量不夠只要苗栗的電量供應最多的"},{"start":7356.108,"end":7377.864,"text":"我這個時間跟你討論得這麼久我還有很多問題要問的你不要這樣搞我可以把委員的這個想法跟意見轉達給國科會我覺得委員講的也是有道理有道理你講話國科會會聽因為你以前在國會包括業主委我看起來都是你的徒弟為什麼你們寫的這種業務報告都是一樣的"},{"start":7381.627,"end":7383.81,"text":"你從國會的執委到行政院的秘書長到現在經濟部長"},{"start":7400.177,"end":7421.591,"text":"大溪谷計劃有三個苗栗 鳳龍產業園區還有竹蘭第二期科學園區的推展還有桃園的科學園區我經濟部鳳龍的科技產業園區我已經解決了經濟部當委問第四頁主管器官但是你比我大"},{"start":7423.112,"end":7447.346,"text":"我千拜託萬拜託我發覺不理你 你當行政院秘書長就躲起來還好你來當經濟部長 我可以天天盯著你我一直跟你拜託你那邊是國科會主導的一個 主管目的實業機關我請你幫我們協調 你都不吃麵南部要一個什麼 你都比誰還快"},{"start":7449.451,"end":7476.977,"text":"苗栗要一個什麼你就這樣偷偷拉拉的我實在這一次還好你來到這部部長我隨時能看到你因為你做過這些事情你最清楚你要不要再幫我們協調一次你接你的劉俊興指揮他卸任的當天早上7點鐘發了一個給我說他很抱歉這個沒有幫我協調成功"},{"start":7478.502,"end":7504.699,"text":"现在行政院秘务司长现在你经济部长要不要帮我协调报告委员分成两个部分一个部分你又分成好几个部分我不晓得要听你哪一个部分现在就是比如说厚龙的部分这个是我们经济部主管我协调完了你们那些很优秀都全力的帮忙但是如果要跨到这个国科会的部分那那个部分我们就只能"},{"start":7505.717,"end":7526.734,"text":"轉達或是希望國發會來做協調你聽我說的大溪谷計畫是由你國發會執委你當時的執委提出來的然後到現在已經一年多了你在當行政院長的時候我碰到這個問題我請你協調說得不好意思你有一點不理不睬"},{"start":7527.836,"end":7549.153,"text":"你做行政院秘書長 我要把你撐起來你說我很忙 我沒有空這都不會做 因為我很老實的人所以這一點 當然你政治部長現在管不上但是你以前的影響力還在我是要用這樣 要我倒數嗎好啊有啦有啦 好啦 你這樣說我相信你現在在這裡說話"},{"start":7553.96,"end":7578.263,"text":"還有再來回答在台北市總部大概三公頃現在怎麼樣他們因為我們經濟部被要求的是說希望在10月24號之前如果17 18如果沒有談妥的話我們盡快的可能備選的這個基地可以提供給這個"},{"start":7579.434,"end":7603.552,"text":"回答參考這樣回答參考啊你也再幫我一次啊其實不一定在台北歐苗栗縣有一塊土地非常漂亮走到高鐵用走路了只有兩分鐘20公頃又便宜又好你不但研發中心可以設立包括他的司科特包括他招待的外賓是"},{"start":7605.171,"end":7631.713,"text":"都可以在那邊設立來促進我們苗栗產業的發展你記得那個地點離新竹科學園區工研院高鐵的話坐了大概16分鐘開車大概20分鐘在台中科學園區大概25到30分鐘交大 清大都在旁邊"},{"start":7633.257,"end":7652.061,"text":"你給我們引薦一下不一定選在那個地方而且給他那麼風光明媚非常的好那委員我們的態度是這樣我們會盡量多提讓他去參考反正這個是他決定的但是我們可能的這個基地我們都提供給他參考"},{"start":7656.395,"end":7672.669,"text":"可以不可以我們會我們會如果好謝謝你今天講的三件都可以我本來七八件要問你的好今天到此為止三件答應我就很滿足了希望能承諾下來幫我完成好不好好謝謝好謝謝好接下來我們請大陸人委員請做詢問"},{"start":7684.656,"end":7685.8,"text":"好 謝謝趙薇然後請龔部長我們請龔部長"},{"start":7696.289,"end":7722.458,"text":"這個AI的新十大建設啦這個相當重要啦那我看到其實矽光子的研發中心這個部分AMD已經很久了啦這個大概談了一年多的時間跟整個整體的合作啦所以我想他現在就正在蓋廠當中正在蓋廠那我說他這個座落在高雄這個部分"},{"start":7723.038,"end":7744.349,"text":"我們談了很長的時間了嘛所以已經開始蓋廠經濟部也給予一定的支持跟協助我想這一塊就是對我們來說就是把輝達跟AMD留在台灣當然他們選擇哪個地點我們就全力的協助他們這應該是最符合整個台灣的利益那也很高興就是AMD又選擇了高雄所以我想這一塊"},{"start":7745.75,"end":7768.53,"text":"已經開始在蓋廠了嘛那也請經濟部持續的大力來協助啦就是說AMD的選擇它現在包括在台南在高雄的雅灣都有做了一些選擇那我希望後續上持續來大力推動特別是我們本來就把雅灣的智慧科技創新園區也定位成是我們AI一個重要的重鎮那我們當然希望這一塊"},{"start":7769.37,"end":7788.502,"text":"它的不管是電力或者是土地各方面都很充沛的狀況下我們希望全力發展來厚實我們整個台灣的一個競爭力當然希望AI能夠成為我們下一個護國群山不只半導體我們有更多的護國群山能夠出現那AI是大家現在都普遍看好所以我相信這個時間來投入這個點是正確的"},{"start":7790.743,"end":7805.943,"text":"所以我再次跟部長確定一下就回答AMD跟這個西光池的研發中心的部分在高雄這個是定案的嗎確定沒問題他們已經在推動當中好那這個部分當然也是配合我們的Aplus計畫裡面Aplus計畫裡面的這個我想後續持續來推動"},{"start":7809.167,"end":7830.222,"text":"那除了這個以外我也想要請教一下我們的無人機其實也是一個重要的產業那政府也要投入442億未來2030年創造400億的一個經濟產值那我們都知道其實高雄特別是北高雄這邊有漢祥同時間也有我們的金工中心"},{"start":7832.003,"end":7859.194,"text":"包括無人機甚至無人船的部分在無人機無人船這個都是一個新的很重要的產業我們有台船有中信等等很多造船產業在高雄也非常強那這個部分會加大力道嗎在高雄的部分特別是北高雄的所謂的無人機的產業鏈或者是在整個高雄的無人船的產業鏈會持續來加大力道強者讓他更強更具有國際競爭力"},{"start":7860.595,"end":7885.882,"text":"是 可以 這個會來朝這個方向來推因為本身就已經具有相當好的一些條件我們來看這個無人機的部分你看其實已經有台灣有16個業者已經有加入到了這個無人機的海外商機的聯盟那當然它本身也包括漢翔的部分包括金工中心都在這邊那無人船的部分其實我們有"},{"start":7887.182,"end":7901.714,"text":"包括台船包括中信甚至於周邊很多的造船產業都很強所以我也希望這一塊請經濟部持續加大力道在無人機這一塊特別是在不管是從國家的安全角度中產業的角度其實都很有很大的潛力"},{"start":7904.015,"end":7929.444,"text":"高雄的北高雄有漢翔有金工中興等等然後有台船有中信我希望強上加強讓我們的無人機無人船的產業在高雄能夠更快速的發展那也符合整個國家整體的利益部長這個沒問題嗎沒問題好謝謝我們再來看一下高雄市整體的發展上面過去我們只有工業主要以工業為基礎但現在我們的S郎代慢慢拉起來後"},{"start":7930.104,"end":7946.306,"text":"我們的工業除了我們的鋼鐵石化電力造船在高雄都是強項電力高雄往外縣市供應我們還持續在增加新的電廠所以我們基礎產業強以外我們現在的半導體產業也拉進來了那也持續在增強"},{"start":7947.307,"end":7975.784,"text":"那經濟部在高雄就有13個園區其實是重鎮非常重要的一個地方我也希望部長持續的加大對高雄這個招商跟投資的力道包括現在講到的矽光子的研發基地在雅灣包括無人機的產業鏈在北高雄整個群聚的一個效果我們希望都能夠帶動那配合AI配合半導體產業我們希望整個活絡高雄讓高雄的這個產業鏈能夠更加的強大部長這個沒問題吧沒問題"},{"start":7978.226,"end":8003.904,"text":"好 謝謝部長部長一句沒問題大概我就全部都接收了我都接收那希望因為這個剛剛委員講的就是高雄現在發展都在進行式剛剛引進這個高科技產業包括半導體AI這個已經在進行式了那矽光石的部分剛剛AMD也開始進駐了那無人機剛剛也有一些基礎的發展所以這個都是在進行式的我們只要政府我們"},{"start":8004.384,"end":8026.11,"text":"注入資源推他們一把我想就會發展得很好我也希望部長持續加強力道啦給他們更多的支持給他們更多的資源的時候他們就會發展得更好是好不好這請部長就持續的能夠加大這個力道在預算上在政治上面持續加大力道是是是好謝謝部長那接下來我要問一下啦大林埔千春其實我們談了很多次了啦那"},{"start":8028.21,"end":8053.747,"text":"這個明年度要編列60億嘛明年度要列60億的經費那明年第二季要啟動協議架構的程序嘛那接下來4月份要進行道路的工程這個都是既定的程序嘛是是是我希望包括接下來有很多的像環評或都計的這些的我也希望能夠部長能夠協調各單位加快跟環保環境部跟整個內政部都能夠加快程序啦不然從2018年蘇院長合併到現在已經將"},{"start":8058.17,"end":8084.06,"text":"八年過去了那如果再持續的拖下去百姓真的會等太久了我希望這一塊請部長協調一下兩個部會間加快那個程序現在比較沒有因為之前都是在您這邊提到全方位照顧鄉親權益那時候鄉親的權益一直在先簽尊先談好補償等等一些情況那我想那個部分已經告一段落了那明年就可以開始所以速度就會加快好"},{"start":8084.44,"end":8110.75,"text":"那我希望這個部分能不能在因為已經也經過很長時間了齁2027年正式來啟動千春部長朝這個方向來做好不好2027年好不好一定要朝這個方向來完成啦因為相信你等待很久2018年核定經過了10年如果還沒辦法啟動明年的第二季是協議架構但是協議架構完跟千春還有一段距離啦我希望"},{"start":8111.13,"end":8139.773,"text":"2027年部長有承諾了2027年我們正式來啟動千村好不好我們給大林埔鄉親一個明確的一個交代了部長沒問題嗎好的好的好好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢問謝謝謝謝主席請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":8148.037,"end":8171.612,"text":"部長 美國已經在8月7號已經宣布對台灣實施20%的暫行稅率那剛剛有聽到好消息說會有更好的消息那更好的消息應該就是降低這個稅率跟讓我們疊加稅率也能夠得到豁免對不對那美國其實對等關稅對台灣的這個政策而言我們"},{"start":8172.412,"end":8193.985,"text":"看到的是有兩個含義第一個就是希望消除了對台灣的貿易的逆差第二個就是對台灣半導體供應鏈能夠擴大到美國去投資除了可以給美國人就業的空間跟經濟的產值最關鍵的還是美國希望能夠掌握半導體晶片跟產能的關鍵技術對不對"},{"start":8196.267,"end":8218.85,"text":"那在最近美國的商務部的部長這個盧特尼克他有提出來台美晶片製造五五分這件事情我們當場我們也是已經拒絕了但是我們擔心說我們在拒絕當下他會不會對我們產生就是有"},{"start":8219.351,"end":8230.093,"text":"更多的威胁跟让我们的这个在谈判当中会不会就在试探我们的底线或者是说看到底我们会不会同意这问题吗"},{"start":8232.096,"end":8257.046,"text":"美國他的想法當然是高階晶片他自己需要的部分某一部分可以在美國生產這是他的想法但是對我們來講的話我們最先進的半導體的技術要留在台灣最大的產能也會留在台灣因為我們供應不只是美國我們供應給全世界所以這個先進製程的產線我們會比美國多得非常多"},{"start":8258.146,"end":8287.664,"text":"所以部长台湾在半导体领域里面是我们这地位是在国际上占有一席之地尤其是二奈米的先进制程我们将近有九成对不对是九成在国际的市占率所以这也就是我们台湾要建构成这个细钝最重要的一环所以要请部长在这边一定要坚守着我们的核心产业的技术绝对不能妥协一定这个五五分的这个晶片的问题是是是好"},{"start":8287.984,"end":8307.111,"text":"那接下來的話就是美國目前他對中國大陸課徵了55%的這個對等關稅是算是全球最高他是為了要報復美國的這關稅的壓力大陸最近也提出來了在12月要擴大稀土礦物的這個出口的"},{"start":8307.911,"end":8335.204,"text":"管制那連續在這個這四月以來大概有兩波了那我們看到在我們的晶片方面在稀土方面你們說這個應該是不會在這個項目裡面是不同項目啦對不對那但是我們擔心的就是無人機的部分無人機他們所需要的這個成分的話剛好就是我們大陸正在限制這個那個項目是混合的對不對"},{"start":8336.424,"end":8361.814,"text":"是 不過這一個部分因為全世界都已經開始提它的替代方案所以我們有提出替代方案嗎因為我們是間接需求所以我們要跟國際的供應鏈間接需求還是有需求如果沒有這個材料我們還是有困難對 所以我們要跟國際供應鏈他們的步調一致所以在這方面的話我們有沒有做重新的調整有 就是說怎麼樣配合國際供應鏈的調整"},{"start":8365.356,"end":8374.466,"text":"他们因应做法我们会来配合那第二个就是说我们自己我们自己可能要保有我们自己需求一部分我们国内的"},{"start":8375.29,"end":8394.975,"text":"这个自己自足量我们自己开始有这样利用回收的部分利用回收所以是工研院还有针对这个废弃的那个电器的话做精炼的提炼来供应我们的产业的需求这个技术已经成熟了啦这样子的提炼产量就够吗"},{"start":8395.855,"end":8423.18,"text":"它现在是公斤级现在要转给这个企业界企业界他们量可以做得比较大做更大所以在这方面我们要请这部长一定要重视这个无人机这个问题该做适当的调整我们还是要做适当的调整才不会影响这个产业的发展好不好无人机整个产业链的发展那接下来跟部长所提的就是汽车是美国最有非常重要的工业品项他特别也提到我们的"},{"start":8424.12,"end":8445.098,"text":"进口关税我们双方在交涉当中希望能够调降目前的进口关税是大概在17.5%那有没有可能会在美国这进口关税上调整为零关税个别项目这个我就不是那么清楚了已经有在谈了"},{"start":8446.524,"end":8475.182,"text":"經濟部長不清楚對 它是一個談判的項目沒有錯但是個別項目的部分這個就比較不清楚為什麼會這樣講呢因為中華賓士他們特別有在提到如果說零關稅的話對他們一些其他進口車包括歐系的中華賓士就是歐系的還有日系還有韓系的車子他們都影響非常非常的大那如果說有這種情形發生的話那其他各國可能會"},{"start":8475.802,"end":8492.767,"text":"像我們世界貿易組織這個WTO來控告我們違反了貿易自由的所以會這樣發生那部長你對這個看法怎麼說因為美國的關稅跟各國都在談判然後有個別有個別的不一樣那如果說"},{"start":8494.41,"end":8518.735,"text":"臺灣如果這樣要因此而被告的話那所有的國家都會被告會這樣子提部長你沒有發現最重要問題如果美國的進口車是零關稅大家就經過美國然後再進來臺灣這樣洗產地的方式進來就會影響整個不行就是說你如果要算是美國製的話他有一定的比例他的附加價值至少要35%以上他在美國設廠從美國那邊進來啊"},{"start":8521.135,"end":8537.053,"text":"它要在美國製造啊是啊在美國製造就算是美國車沒有錯在台灣製造就是台灣車部長還有最重要的你知道說我們台灣的車子在我們台灣組裝的進口車在台灣組裝的產業大不大"},{"start":8537.754,"end":8557.354,"text":"你知道吗不小 对所以关于这个部分将近有30万的汽车跟我们的零件组织的供应链从业人员我们有将近30万包括零组件对 零组件所以都在我们这边如果你从不从美国设厂从美国进来西陕地进来那我们30万的从业人员"},{"start":8557.995,"end":8571.024,"text":"那怎麼辦呢不會讓他洗產地啦所以你要嚴格保管你有什麼做法你有什麼做法海關本來就會他要因為他就是我們跟美國談判美國人也"},{"start":8572.045,"end":8596.662,"text":"也不允許我們洗產地所以這是對等的啦所以部長一定要確保市場的公平跟國內產業的生存空間我們可以的做法就是說在原產地原產地品牌的認證做一個配套是不是品牌的認證好不好這點要嚴格把關保護我們的產業就是確認它是不是美製的好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8602.045,"end":8628.372,"text":"接下來我們請賴世保委員請做詢談謝謝主席有請我們的工部長我們再請工部長老闆好你好我只有兩個簡單問題第一個"},{"start":8632.524,"end":8648.636,"text":"賴總統說有好消息應該就講關稅有好消息好消息是不是就是確定兩件事情 確定一下是不是關稅不再跌加20%往下降 是不是"},{"start":8650.539,"end":8675.198,"text":"方向上是這樣 對不疊加然後往下降那最多能降多少呢我認為了不起跟韓國日本一樣啊降到15%啊15%是最低的啦如果是順差國15%是最低的啦就降到15%嘛所以最好的情況就是不疊加降到15%確定嘛但是我要強調的一點是"},{"start":8678.553,"end":8705.723,"text":"是時間點啊timing啊我們從4月5月開始談哇那時候好了不起喔我說台灣全世界前四個國家有五個國家能夠跟美國談關稅結果一談談到現在好幾個國家都已經確定了我們一直沒有確定有一種講法坊間一個講法媒體有一種講法就說啊因為在"},{"start":8707.188,"end":8729.233,"text":"川習會會面之前台灣不會搞定一定要之後才搞定即便你現在講了什麼什麼什麼之類的之後就等於說我們還是在被中美的談判的框架裡面我們還是被制約的照理講賴總統如果講這麼好的消息出來"},{"start":8730.153,"end":8749.583,"text":"趕快去搞定啊這兩天就把它確定了啊對不對 結果現在看起來就是要等到APEC之後等於是川習見了面以後台灣再搞定這個事情你覺得怎麼樣巴爾委員的確是有這樣的說法這是時間上確定嗎這個是時間上有這樣的說法就是說可能他比較優先的因為"},{"start":8756.867,"end":8785.188,"text":"美中的這個貿易比較複雜而且量比較大我們不複雜所以時間上來講的話時間上來講的話他可能會比較來處理對中的事某種程度就是我們的重要性不如中國大陸嘛很清楚吧就這樣子啊我們的半導體是全世界最好的我知道哪裡只有半導體啊那其他他要希望大陸的稀土啊"},{"start":8786.028,"end":8802.079,"text":"還要希望大陸買他的大豆啊 對不對他的大陸籌碼多啊 我們的籌碼少啊我們籌碼就一個晶片 相關產業但是報告委員我們跟美國人談的部分你所謂的框架是沒有在中國的框架之下"},{"start":8802.819,"end":8824.272,"text":"事實是完全不一樣你剛才同意啦 就是在他後面啦那是時間 時間的關係時間對他在他後面啦但是談判的內容框架是沒有的我們談是在前面談耶為什麼要在後面內容上是完全無關我知道啦 但是你就說我們談在什麼樣就是很讓人很嘔的地方啦我們就照著概供啊"},{"start":8825.732,"end":8838.615,"text":"而且台美關係不是很好嗎結若磐石嗎怎麼會擺一擺擺到後面去了談判也有彼此的堅持還是要有時間因為我們也有我們的堅持我們有堅持嗎我們都循環啊我們能夠談到你剛剛講的不疊加如果確定可以談到15%嗎"},{"start":8845.788,"end":8872.918,"text":"努力啦 努力 方向不是 確定啦 是不是確定不是 這個是我們努力的方向你剛剛確定喔你剛剛跟我確定喔 這個是我們努力的方向我們努力的方向 對但是要付出什麼代價蕭美錦副總統是講啦代價就是我們整個晶片的supply chain都過去啦 對不對從上面的design到今年代工到整個封裝伺服器通通過去啦你變成這樣子"},{"start":8874.458,"end":8886.662,"text":"台灣半導體的生態系還是會留在台灣而且還會壯大你知道這樣一來的話有幾家廠要去你知道嗎沒有 台灣的半導體的生態系你跟我講 因為我時間不要佔用後面的時間是有幾家廠要過去 有幾家沒有 我們知道的就是說他會去投資美國並不表示要搬過去不是這樣的意思"},{"start":8897.199,"end":8905.147,"text":"投資這某種程度 你是程度差別而已啦因為台灣也會壯大 台灣壯大除了台積電供現金有超過一兆以上很多的supply chain沒有啊包括比如說封裝廠 它有這麼多現金嗎伺服器的代工廠有這麼多現金嗎它整個都是supply chain的一環"},{"start":8920.563,"end":8933.419,"text":"他還沒有這麼多錢啊可以說我在台灣一個在美國一個他整個來講別忘了如果這些補那麼多過去的話我看到的是什麼台灣的年輕人下一代我們下下代"},{"start":8934.69,"end":8956.293,"text":"他們的工作機會會大幅減少我看到的是這個東西現在台灣的高科技產業是缺人才所以還缺很多所以我們需要更多的人才所以只要你一直沒有回答我就告訴你整個supply chain是數百家到上千家的supply chain整個我們看到的是都過去我不相信說"},{"start":8957.774,"end":8974.226,"text":"我們所有的數百家上千家都可以說台灣一個廠 美國一個廠沒有上千家啦我不相信沒有這麼厲害啦除了台積電幾個幾個很大的廠所以這個去美國投資如果這家公司不賺錢他就不會去啊"},{"start":8975.026,"end":8980.688,"text":"他為什麼要去 如果不賺錢我幹嘛去那邊投資我們副總統已經講了 都說要去的啊就這樣講啊所以他是跟國內跟國外部長 那因為委員很關心你詳細再跟委員說明清楚謝謝接下來我們請王育民委員請做詢問 謝謝"},{"start":9002.107,"end":9005.251,"text":"谢谢主席我们有请工部长我们再请工部长谢谢"},{"start":9012.333,"end":9034.309,"text":"黃委員好部長好 昨天在院會質詢的時候 我有問到根據水庫管理辦法我們任何的計畫送來核准一次只能三年喔但是你們的光電板 你們自己一核就核了七年喔我今天要在這邊正式的問部長請問你是根據哪一個法條可以"},{"start":9035.43,"end":9041.321,"text":"超越這個水庫管理辦法的三年的限制然後直接核准洗碗 哪一個法條 請具體說明"},{"start":9043.291,"end":9070.296,"text":"報告委員這邊講第五條對不對續審時間下月十一其行為人應該向管理機關申請許可那如果他本身是管理機關的話就不是這個是適用第五條了因為農業部他本身是管理機關所以他可以在這個水庫上你是依據哪一個法條這樣子講的在所有的水庫管理辦法哪一條就是說他是管理人的話可以不適用這個辦法因為第五條"},{"start":9070.956,"end":9096.389,"text":"第五條你告訴我是哪一條不是第五條就是不適用管理機關你告訴我是哪一條啦我們依法論法嘛你直接講出嘛就哪一條嘛如果說你有訂另外一個規定這個來超越這個辦法這個我接受嘛請問你是用哪一條他是管理機關是本於全責他的辦理所以管理機關就不用嘛好那我要開始答聯你了請注意看喔"},{"start":9098.508,"end":9120.996,"text":"這個經濟部你知道除了水庫管理辦法之外每一個水庫自己還有執法對不對這個我手上的是經濟部核准的你們自己公告的烏山頭水庫它的蓄水範圍及申請許可事項你們後來在執法裡面有把光電板放進來了特別針對公告事項有針對光電板"},{"start":9121.696,"end":9141.604,"text":"但是在你們的公告裡面清清楚楚你的管理機關以烏山水庫來講是嘉南管理處光電廠商要不要送申請 要白紙黑字寫得非常的清楚結果你昨天的新聞稿根本是亂七八糟"},{"start":9143.304,"end":9162.653,"text":"進行扭曲這個你自己公告的執法你說我只要是我今天加難管理處我就不需要審核不需要有計劃我愛怎麼做就怎麼做事情不是如此啊他們要有一套審核標準對啊 那你審核的標準你不是按照水庫管理辦法來嗎"},{"start":9163.934,"end":9182.527,"text":"那個期限你有在任何的執法裡面說只要是光電廠商一下子我就可以給7年我可以超越水庫管理辦法沒有啊我們今天是依法論法嘛這個經濟部你作為主管水庫的你這個所有的辦法都是你頒布的"},{"start":9182.927,"end":9206.072,"text":"你不可以自己頒布這樣一個辦法那今天被委員發現說你在核可這些太陽光電的時候你都超越了水庫管理辦法你一核就核給七年你按照你的水庫管理辦法你就是一次最多三年然後你下一次要再經過你們的同意但是你們現在公告的連這個執法"},{"start":9208.752,"end":9220.406,"text":"你們都要違反然後昨天在說什麼只要是我們管理單位我們設的這一些光電板這個通通都不適用於這個水庫管理辦法"},{"start":9221.744,"end":9246.227,"text":"這是違法的你們經濟部到底有沒有法務人員這樣子那個新聞稿可以發出來另外一個很離譜的你們說什麼你們說這一些光電板都是水利水利署相關管理單位的財產你們有沒有去看過業者跟你們訂的契約在契約裡面光電板是廠商有的還是你們相關管理單位有的都亂說一通昨天那個新聞稿是誰發的哪個單位發的"},{"start":9249.811,"end":9265.699,"text":"誰寫的 哪個單位發出來了有沒有很嚴謹的去審核昨天在院會我就講得非常清楚昨天院長也說要回去好好的檢討結果你們就急著出手"},{"start":9267.039,"end":9293.276,"text":"這樣一個新聞稿真的是你們把自己作為一個管理機關的高度做小了我請問如果你這樣胡亂解釋一通你未來怎麼去管理那些要來跟你深設計畫的相關單位你自己都違法在先你有什麼立場跟資格去管理其他的計畫呢我覺得這件事情針對第五條這個部分因為它的確是不適用這個第五條的辦法"},{"start":9294.076,"end":9309.653,"text":"不適用 是你們自己解釋的啊你們自己的執法裡面也都沒有說不適用啊他本身就是管理機關 什麼管理機關跟管理機關自己申請你是委託光電廠商來設置光電板部長你不要越講越離譜了他是約束那一個申請人"},{"start":9310.694,"end":9335.774,"text":"你不要越講越離譜了你自己的執法裡面都還叫這一些來生設光電板的你要送計畫要來經過我的許可絕對不是你們說完全不需要許可我希望這件事情經濟部你好好的去檢討昨天在院會院長已經裁示了要求你們檢討你們就好好的檢討有疏漏的以後就不要再犯但是千萬不能硬拗謝謝謝謝"},{"start":9341.034,"end":9366.1,"text":"謝謝王委員謝謝龔部長我們繼續請盧縣議委員請做詢問主席有請龔部長跟水利署黃副署長好我們請兩位署長你要上台的時候主席台對對謝謝"},{"start":9369.435,"end":9379.153,"text":"部長好 我們先看一段影片沒有聲音沒有聲音"},{"start":9385.683,"end":9406.878,"text":"好 没有关系 这没有声音这是我前天去四子乡也就是丰港西流域邻近的族人在做抗议抗议最主要的诉求是希望能够远离鸡屎味希望不要再合床种植西瓜后来我们去了那个地方以后发现有四个违法的明显违法的事实第一个是食用生鸡粪"},{"start":9407.558,"end":9432.783,"text":"第二个是撕屁道路第三个是破坏河体第四个是在河床上兴建铁皮屋所以我想请问我们副座地方政府是否长期纵容业者违反县府的规范在未登陆地或者是野稀全责不清的区域违法种植导致环境污染数十年然后这是系统性的执法失灵还是行政怠惰"},{"start":9433.451,"end":9452.795,"text":"报告委员这个案件我们有掌握那这个是县政府管理的河川那在委员这个积极的关切之下呢我们其实已经有跟县政府这边积极来督促他们赶快来做处理所以他目前要进行裁判是大概是新台币"},{"start":9453.987,"end":9481.668,"text":"两万五到五十万元之间不过这是将进行裁判可是我们主任的诉求是说希望能够就它违法的部分如果是确实违法的话它应该是按照我们78条之一种西瓜使用生鸡粪饮水都需许可违规可撤销然后91条之二就是说以违反许可内容使用的时候可以废止取租约朝这个方向来是我们会来努力OK"},{"start":9482.208,"end":9505.815,"text":"那现在根据空污法的裁罚他大概也只有罚到五千到十万左右所以对业者来讲可能是一个不是很痛痒的一个裁罚那现在主任有一个明确的诉求就是说他不要任何的补偿金只要将违反乱纪或者是未申请种植西瓜的业主呢予以撤销他的种植证照我先给你看一下大概第四张"},{"start":9506.809,"end":9509.254,"text":"它違法的區域有這麼寬我們到了這個地區的時候"},{"start":9512.557,"end":9539.707,"text":"发现它也不是七分署管也不是水利署管也不是原民会管这个等于是真空地带那后来问国产署说国产署总是你们的财产法因为按照我们现在国有财产法第二条规定反而不属于私有或地方所有的财产均是为国有财产可是这个地区是没有经过许可也没有经过登记也没有去申请合法的租约可是这个区块是我们"},{"start":9540.467,"end":9567.443,"text":"眼睛看到大概十個足球場那麼大那你說這樣那個區域是就在部落旁邊這個他們常常為了規避這些捲舉他們大概都是半夜或者是大概將近昨天看到的那個捲舉的民眾捲舉是9點22分在他們村莊那個Line上面說就開始飄那個濃濃的雞屎味也就是說他們利用這個投機取巧的方式來放這個生雞糞所以"},{"start":9568.598,"end":9595.192,"text":"他們希望能夠明確的可以終止他們這個租約或者是終止執照好不好是 報告委員我們會來經濟協調縣政府趕快來做處置對 而且這個屬於我們傳統領域是瑟布利西一個傳統領域在1893年曾經發生過元漢的一個衝突造成四個人死亡已經過了100多年133年到目前為止那個區塊我們認定它是我們排灣族的傳統領域所以就使用這個土地來講應該縣政府在"},{"start":9599.416,"end":9618.282,"text":"這個要種植西瓜之前應該請業者跟我們鄰近的部落做一個諮商同意權也就是落實原基法第21條的規定可以嗎是 我們會來努力好 那我就希望經濟部在能不能在兩週內提出我們是不是可以撤銷許可中止租業或非止租業的一個"},{"start":9620.663,"end":9639.949,"text":"你們的承諾 包委員因為這個權責還是在縣政府啦那我們會依照委員的意見趕快跟縣政府協調但是撤不撤銷可能還是要以縣政府這邊的意見為主我們會來努力 為登記土地的權責劃分希望能夠一個月內給本席報告 是 我們會來努力好 謝謝您好 謝謝接下來我們請蔡議員委員請做詢問"},{"start":9659.329,"end":9664.051,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長我們再請公共部長蔡委員好部長好"},{"start":9673.049,"end":9701.41,"text":"部長首先還是要問一下今天大家在關心的就是說整個關稅談判的進度現在到底會如何呢因為大家也都有看到說賴總統事實上在對外也說這個關稅朝向正面的方向在發展那大家還是期待說最後談判的進度那到底現在你們的評估狀況是怎樣的就像總統講的就是說"},{"start":9704.221,"end":9717.551,"text":"沒有涉及到匯率嘛這個總統講另外就是說關稅從暫定的這個20%往下降不疊加那這個部分是比較正面的方向在進行當中20%"},{"start":9721.119,"end":9738.182,"text":"餓死往下往下又不疊加對對對對那就很成功啊是那大家會期待啊所以說這是一個正面的方向是啊是啊這個聽起來那這一次的談判大概大家會給整個行政談判團隊會給會給予掌聲如果可以吵到這樣所以我們現在會期待喔"},{"start":9739.663,"end":9755.312,"text":"總結會議還沒有開當然當然但是但是部長既然我們這樣講大家會期待喔所以真的要努力喔是是是真的因為都講出口了嘛我們都講了但是大家就會覺得嗯那會是一個好的狀況那我想要再進一步問說那針對232條款呢"},{"start":9758.098,"end":9779.735,"text":"这两款主要跟我们牵扯比较大的就是主要是半导体的部分所以我们也会谈到一个比较好的条件那美国他也有一个想法如果你有去之前也有讲嘛如果你有去那边投资的话基本上是可以豁免那当然我们希望这个可以豁免的范围越大是越好的"},{"start":9779.995,"end":9806.609,"text":"我們半導體在美國投資目前是有的嘛我們包括台積電台積電已經有宣布了而且很多是讓台灣台灣本來就有在投資美國在半導體這一塊有這個也不是現在才叫半導體業去是以前就有投資了嘛對不對可是美國現在是要我們加碼投資4月2號之前台積電本來就有在美國有做投資了是啊本來就有了現在第一個廠也開始正式營運了是"},{"start":9808.05,"end":9832.868,"text":"所以如果有投資的話就可以朝向說會拿到更好的一個因為基本上從廠商的角度台積電一直講只要有訂單上的需求他就願意去投資而且就是說如果就是說他也要賺錢如果說有訂單沒賺錢也不可能去所以就是說要確保他有訂單而且可以賺到錢"},{"start":9833.629,"end":9841.342,"text":"好 但是部長我想台灣除了ICT產業之外事實上還是有其他的產業啦是尤其是傳統產業是那傳統產業事實上會被232條款衝擊很大喔"},{"start":9846.477,"end":9872.975,"text":"如果你这个钢铝钢铝目前还是50%钢铝产业也是台湾很重要的传统产业的一环因为它涉及到后端可能就是工具机所以现在大家都预估如果现在台湾整个外销在这一些ICT产业大概是会蓬勃发展而且外销订单会扩张但是相对的传统上在钢铝产业"},{"start":9873.835,"end":9894.001,"text":"大概會進入寒冬所以就是說整個科技產業蓬勃翻產但是傳統產業還是會被這一次的關稅然後232條款的影響那這個產業會受到衝擊那部長你身為經濟部長就針對不同的產業你要有不同的照顧那你針對其他的產業呢"},{"start":9895.314,"end":9919.955,"text":"報告委員所以我們為什麼這個特別預算裡面會編了這個460億那這460億基本上主要要支持的對象主要大概就是傳統性的產業跟這個中小微企業因為高科技產業基本上是相對而言是比較沒有受到這次關稅或是國際形勢的一些影響所以他們也比較不會用到這個460億對"},{"start":9921.897,"end":9949.572,"text":"那所以我們為什麼因為這個關稅的影響最重要還是那具體上461你要怎麼去協助這一些受到受到關稅影響的產業第一個他的訂單如果沒有訂單就慘了所以我們為什麼要保住他的訂單那保住他的訂單多元開拓市場他們去除了美國市場之外他還有去其他的地方要去參展我們給他補助甚至一設台灣館因為中小企業可能"},{"start":9950.132,"end":9979.332,"text":"没有办法做到这一点那我们也会把顾客引导到台湾来那这个是订单希望他不要中断另外一个是他的金流也不要中断所以雨天不收伞甚至还要撑更大的伞就是两个嘛一方面就是希望他们协助他们在国外找订单那协助他们在国外找订单这件事我跟部长稍微呼吁一下因为很多产业是跟我讲过去台湾在面对产业的时候往往"},{"start":9980.695,"end":9984.35,"text":"你看到他們越要去參加越大型的國際展"},{"start":9985.868,"end":10009.685,"text":"結果我們經濟部就會認為說你就有人家去參加大型的三展了所以反而對他們協助的力道反而變小事實上應該要反向要去做既然有人家要參加大型的你就要讓他去拚大大隻回來所以我們應該要站在說要怎麼讓他們可以去跟國際的企業競爭"},{"start":10011.246,"end":10028.312,"text":"而不是在國內斤斤計較說你這一家企業就已經本身有夠強了你不需要政府再去協助你做訂單這個觀念不能這樣所以我們是全面性的因為很感謝立法院給我們這樣的額度所以可以我們比較充裕"},{"start":10029.132,"end":10037.58,"text":"對於這個全面性的 461金額不少啊但是產業有這麼多種 他們大家如果要去拚國際競爭經濟部就是要給他們可以到位的協助 讓他們多多去拚拚他們的產品 讓國外的人可以接受這個是經濟部要去打拚的所以我們現在做法就是這樣子 沒有錯"},{"start":10055.782,"end":10069.611,"text":"那期待啦因為460億都已經編了可以執行了嘛那現在開始有不少產業已經在問我了那接下來要怎麼做因為確實他們現在看到的就是我剛講的光是鋼鋁50%"},{"start":10072.412,"end":10092.339,"text":"50%的關稅這個真的對國內這些鋼鋁的這些產業鏈他們的衝擊真的是很大所以我覺得部長你要靠近下鄉去跟這些傳統產業跟這些工具機器產業你自己去開工除了我自己之外的話我們事實上在北中南東已經成立了這個輔導團"},{"start":10094.73,"end":10115.133,"text":"工協會還有我們二十幾個法人全部把它集結起來然後分這個區域主動式的去拜會這些廠商看看他們需要真正的協助是什麼那我們就來 部長你要相信過去台灣有很多像這種工具局甚至像那種做馬達的我們家依舊有一家做馬達"},{"start":10115.854,"end":10144.095,"text":"他都是台灣的隱形冠軍欸是是是做那種一些反正在一些工具機一些做包膜的啦怎樣台灣都很強而且我們這個強是在於我們的產品是有創新的我們有辦法做出世界看起來我們的品質是好的但是我們遇到的關稅的衝擊的時候經濟部今天下場下去讓大家關心前兩天我還去馬手後第一期啊那個做地毯的那個"},{"start":10145.115,"end":10168.86,"text":"做得非常好 他還要加裝他知道我們有太舊換新的這個機械補助以後他就要趕快來申請因為他的確要買一個比較先進的機械所以部長這樣就對了下鄉然後去聽產業的心聲然後461的預算就直接讓他們可以感受到困難的時候進戶及時的救援然後馬上協助他們 好不好是是是好 謝謝好 非常的感謝"},{"start":10174.52,"end":10190.357,"text":"接下來我們請葉元之委員請做選擇主席好 麻煩請經濟部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":10197.956,"end":10223.108,"text":"月文好部長好那個回答應該是在10月24號的時候應該是之前有發文給經濟部希望經濟部在10月24號之前24吧提供一些那個地那現在是提供哪一些因為他有給我們一些條件那我們就按照這個條件哪些嘛提供哪些這個就不好不方便講是連這個都不能講"},{"start":10225.23,"end":10248.007,"text":"這個國人都討論成這樣了 我們這個政府是秘密怎麼那麼多沒有 因為要好 那你現在了解 回答但是我們的態度是這樣啦我們會提供比較多啦反正因為抉擇是在他們我們現在在質詢台上面問說到底有沒有提供 提供多少你沒有辦法回答然後說我們會提供比較多這個你覺得你這種回答有意義嗎"},{"start":10249.028,"end":10275.589,"text":"我們現在了解說經濟部有沒有認真去找地嘛然後你回答說我們比較多你現在一塊都講不出來台北市政府除了T10T、T18之外還提供T12然後還去看了那個南煙就是人家就是可以講一大堆啊你們這邊說我們提供比較多部長你來這邊這樣回答問題適合嗎好算了啦就大家可以看到你們經濟部的態度啦也有可能是沒有在找啦所以回答不出來啦有很積極啦那是什麼嗎提供哪一塊嘛"},{"start":10276.857,"end":10283.78,"text":"我們大概有超過了 可能會提供超過10個基地提供10個基地 那幾塊是回答比較有興趣的"},{"start":10284.799,"end":10308.662,"text":"我們還沒提供啊還沒提供 所以你要準備什麼時候提供23號23號 人家說24號以前 你23號不錯啦很積極啦 少一天顯然基進部對於要把揮打留在台灣也不是那麼積極啦如果我是你的話 我有一塊兩塊我趕快跟他講了啦跟他講說你不要走 我前面已經好幾塊跟你不錯囉我不會盤點了十幾塊在前一天給他啦"},{"start":10309.659,"end":10336.6,"text":"部長你的態度就讓大家看到政府到底對於有沒有把回答留下來的態度啦台北市政府真的比你積極很多啦我們是有跟他溝通啦好啦好啦沒關係我也不為難你可能你也不是很了解那我想請問一下能源的議題因為現在光電板問題很多包括之前水庫水庫的浮電光電板本來政府積極在推結果後來被發現說是不是會被對環境有影響結果進一步的態度好像就沒那麼積極了"},{"start":10337.601,"end":10345.731,"text":"改口講說地方政府沒核准就不會推感覺上我現在感覺啦現在不知道經濟部現在是不是沒有要推光點了"},{"start":10346.598,"end":10370.499,"text":"就是對光電來說是比較消極的這是光電部分還有風電因為我們了解風電現在陸基的風電很多都年限期限都到了嘛20年30年都陸續在到那地方都反而很激烈所以陸基的風電可能也會遭受阻力那我是不知道說經濟部你現在綠電這塊假設光電沒有積極在推風電也沒有要推的話你要用什麼能源來補綠電這塊"},{"start":10371.997,"end":10377.946,"text":"我們都積極在推啊有嗎 光電還有積極在推嗎當然那譬如說譬如說要積極推量在哪裡"},{"start":10378.82,"end":10403.383,"text":"屋頂型的我們就積極在推你要積極推在哪裡比如說現在水庫感覺你們也不會推了嘛然後因為光電以前很多弊案山頭可以整個山頭全部砍掉放那麼多光電板以後想必應該也比較不敢了還有很多問題現在可能會一些弊案變比較少那你要怎麼推光電"},{"start":10404.659,"end":10420.636,"text":"怎麼推就是還是持續的推啊怎麼推啊還有地嗎您剛才提到這個幣案有問題的部分就去處理嘛那現在我們有一個我是問說要怎麼推啦你現在積極推是口號啊我是問具體的做法啊我剛剛提到了就是說屋頂型的時候我們1000瓦會補出3000塊"},{"start":10423.799,"end":10450.458,"text":"所以你現在主力是放在屋頂型這個是一部分還有勒但是我們地面型或者是漁電共生我們也不會放棄啊我們會持續啊所以接下來就是會把重點放在屋頂跟漁電共生那你預計把這重點放在這兩塊光電可以成長多少可以成長多少還有太秀換新的部分就是有一些暗場它以前轉換效率比較差的我們可以換成新的所以可以成長多少大概評估"},{"start":10452.591,"end":10480.004,"text":"明年十一月我們還是希望可以達到多少二十幾個月這個還是我們的目標明年十一月目標不變對這是我們努力的方向那你們對那個水庫的浮動光電板的態度有變嗎就是說因為大家有一些誤解我們希望把這個誤解釐清以後是誤解嗎對對啊因為很多人認為說它會有汙染但實際上是不會啊那你為什麼你們要退縮咧你就講清楚就好啦對我們就是要講清楚那為什麼第一時間退縮"},{"start":10481.633,"end":10500.126,"text":"沒有啊 我們沒有退縮啊有啊 你們第一時間就在賴啊就在講說哎呀 那個是地方政府的事啊民進黨的還講說韓國瑜是同意的你講的態度就讓人家覺得那個東西有問題嘛不是不是 既有的程序本來就有地方政府的權責所以您的意思是說把它講清楚之後 您還會繼續推對 OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10509.912,"end":10512.155,"text":"接下來我們請廖宣祥委員請做巡檔好 謝謝主席 也要麻煩我們龔部長我們再請龔部長能源署長也可以陪一下可能會比較熟悉"},{"start":10529.221,"end":10542.48,"text":"部長我今天跟您討論一下就是上次7月的時候這個屏東交通外海太陽光電浮台試驗場域案的後續啦那我不是要跟你討論執行的東西好或不好而是後續的處理問題跟誠實的問題啦"},{"start":10544.783,"end":10573.429,"text":"經濟部那時候在7月多的時候有發新聞稿表示業者已經在颱風來之前已經拆除了光電板請問一下我們經濟部發這個新聞稿這件事情的時候是業者口頭跟我們說還是業者有提供一些客觀的一個資訊給我們經濟部是 這個有照片那事實上我們發這個新聞是說他的光電板已經都拆走了但他留在海上的是福台那是福台不是光電板"},{"start":10574.617,"end":10585.435,"text":"因為到現在目前為止我想包括當初有許多的委員都跟我們的經濟部要當初拆卸的照片或者是說現在光電板到底在哪裡那現在我們能源署有辦法提供嗎"},{"start":10586.696,"end":10607.399,"text":"我們可以請業者那些光電板業者收回去了他儲藏在他自己儲存的地方有提供給我們能源署嗎我們沒有因為對我們來講我們沒有需要他提供這個資料但是我們有現場的照片就是說他是福台他上面是沒有太陽光電板的那你們可以提供這照片吧"},{"start":10609.016,"end":10635.574,"text":"這個要我們來跟業者來索取因為當初社會討論很廣泛那一直懷疑說有沒有猜你們一直說有猜但是又沒有辦法提供照片所以後續我們經濟部應該可以提供我們來跟業者確認日期這是業者的資料那跟委員報告就是說當時是福台那後來受到風災吹到海上來吹到岸上來的我們蒐集到的也全部都是福台並沒有任何的"},{"start":10635.954,"end":10660.788,"text":"太陽光電比較重會沉那我想確認一下業者你們能不能去確認一下因為每一個光電板應該都有它的序號對不對光電板都有序號每一個序號所以它當初那個暗場的光電板也都有登錄嘛對不對序號是光電板出廠的時候都會有嘛那它建置在現場是哪些序號在現場其實這裡都追蹤的到嘛對不對"},{"start":10662.736,"end":10676.396,"text":"因為他現在收回去了所以他現場並沒有對 原本放在海上的嘛原本放在海上的就是他購買的他購買的太陽能板應該能夠追查到他說原本要放在海上的這些光電板的序號我們應該都要有才對"},{"start":10678.005,"end":10693.698,"text":"我們有辦法去做後續的集合確認一下他所說光電板放在哪一邊那些光電板的序號跟當初申請加東外海的這些光電板的序號去對一個集合確認這些光電板真的都有收起來在他現在所說的倉庫裡面這點做得到嗎"},{"start":10696.416,"end":10718.707,"text":"這個因為它是一個實驗計畫我們所以當時並沒有去登記它的序號是多少那這個我們可以跟業者來要求看看環境部一定有 台電也一定有應該是沒有啦因為它是試驗計畫它整個環境部就規範每一個太陽能板都必須要有序號你才能夠並聯接電啊"},{"start":10720.816,"end":10743.351,"text":"每一個出廠都有序號然後你要繳回匯金啊他這個所以 對不對所以你在哪裡這本來就是一套環境部那時候都一直在說明每一塊供電板一定都追蹤得到它在哪裡然後後續怎麼處置你現在跟我說序號找不到他這一個不是商業經營它是一個實驗計畫它本來實驗完成實驗計畫就不用序號嗎"},{"start":10745.352,"end":10764.979,"text":"實驗計畫就所有的太陽盲板那你怎麼追蹤這些實驗場的序號這些光電板後續要怎麼處理包括後續的回收這都是要靠序號來追蹤啊只要他業者不丟棄的話那你怎麼知道他有沒有丟棄你沒有序號你怎麼知道他有沒有丟棄所以我們有序號的意義就是說如果他有丟棄到外面"},{"start":10765.979,"end":10780.261,"text":"最重要的意義就是追蹤嘛對不對那既然我們現在國家有這個序號的一個制度那我們應該就可以靠我們的序號去追蹤當初應該在海上的光電板現在到底在哪邊他說在哪邊我們應該也可以去做一個集合這應該是非常簡單的一件事情"},{"start":10781.783,"end":10796.659,"text":"這個序號是我們如果查到它有丟棄置在任何一個地方我們可以從這一個序號去追蹤它的來源我剛剛講的你們能不能做到就是依照序號去查當初在海上的光電板現在到底在哪邊是不是業者有誠實的來做我們回報"},{"start":10797.62,"end":10814.544,"text":"可不可以去做後續的稽查因為他是試驗計畫我沒有登記他的需要但是我們可以來諮詢這些業者因為試驗計畫他本來試驗完成業者就要把所有的浮台跟光電板回收回他的工廠他如果有遺落在外的"},{"start":10814.904,"end":10828.888,"text":"我們就可以從那個需要去追蹤到哪裡依照這條線索去找出來 依照這條線索去找出來那包括我想確認一下這個福台計畫我們補助的金額是只有福台嗎還是整個計畫有沒有去把它做這個拆分"},{"start":10830.829,"end":10858.685,"text":"整個計畫是當然有浮台跟太陽能板而且他要在海上做對所以我有一個疑問假設現在的這些當初補助的經費裡面包含浮台包括光電板現在計畫終止了那這些光電板如果業者一去他他處使用的話這有沒有違法的一個問題所以我才要我們的能源署盡快的去追蹤這些能源這些光電板他現在到底在哪邊是跟委員報告他的計畫一個是環境污染的問題還沒有終止"},{"start":10859.025,"end":10886.528,"text":"一個是我們補助的問題補助的東西他就只能在這邊用不能夠拿到其他場域用這是絕對的規範這絕對沒有錯吧我們沒有補助他去購置這些東西你就是整個計畫包含嘛好不好沒關係時間到了也不要再用大家太多的時間就依照序號去做這兩件事情去追蹤他的目前的最終的流向在哪確認他到底有沒有一致他的暗場使用好不好以上兩點再麻煩"},{"start":10888.393,"end":10908.259,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請柯資恩委員請做詢問謝謝主席 我們是不是請部長跟能源署長我們請兩位"},{"start":10916.301,"end":10932.081,"text":"各位好部长跟署长好我想回到我们大树河山里的光电厂这当初这个空拍图震惊全国目前来说的话因为我们第二案场已经是完全是撤掉它的施工许可第一呢"},{"start":10933.786,"end":10953.981,"text":"包委員 第一案場因為它是合法設置但它中間有違規那所以我們違規的部分我們要叫它拆除違規的部分而且它已經完工了所以你們會不會給它發給它電業執照會不會發會 它第一期是合法設置的第二期我們不會發我知道 第一期你們什麼時候發我們"},{"start":10958.735,"end":10985.365,"text":"他有部分違規你們拆除啊對你第一期什麼時候發他現在還沒有申請所以說你們他申請的話你們會再看然後你們如果說他完全合格你們會發對我還是要提醒喔因為他是完全根據舊法對不對根據舊法你根據新法位於三坡地面積達到規模像是15公頃以上或者是裝置流量加2萬的千瓦以上需要我們河山是舊案但是你看看他案場大概是51公頃喔"},{"start":10986.665,"end":11015.604,"text":"裝置流量是7萬的這個千瓦你如果沒有經過你認為如果你要給它核發的話你是不是要再一次環評因為每一個磁磚地球都不一樣當年是因為我們2019年為了要設置這麼大的一個所謂的綠電你說實在的你沒有經過環評有那時空背景我們都不同意那現在已經發生這麼多的事情距離我們的這個村莊只有100公尺大家都非常關切所以嗨嗨你要發這個執照之前你還要不要再經過一次環評"},{"start":11017.626,"end":11038.417,"text":"要不要包委員他如果重新提出申請我們會就法令重新來檢視剛才委員指教的新舊法我們也會在法律上重新看所以你現在不敢承諾到底會不會再經過環評我們要做法律上的分析因為民眾申請他有他一定了解所以要不要再經過環評你們目前是未確定"},{"start":11038.937,"end":11047.84,"text":"我們會再來就法律上證個因為他這個如果要發執照也不只環評一件事我們會把整個所以說他不會像是完所以目前聽起來不會像是像過去就法你只要是一切就你們那時候的法規可以你就發給執照這次還會做全面的一個來做討論是這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":11059.343,"end":11071.983,"text":"但是每個案其實我們都會這樣做因為目前為止每個人都非常關切這個電板的問題你們在2030年的時候能源署有告訴我們說你們可能光電的設置要到31.2GW沒有錯嗎目前為止這個目標還是嗎"},{"start":11073.862,"end":11096.577,"text":"是的 這個是我們努力的目標那我們希望能夠抓到31.2Gbps2035部長你知道嗎2035可能要到31.2Gbps那就大概就是我們所謂的1692個大安森林公園這麼多我們先來看看有沒有辦法土地怎麼找這都是非常重要的一個問題我們先來看一下到2025距離目前只有多久時間到2030年你要31.2Gbps現在是2025"},{"start":11100.64,"end":11122.335,"text":"到8月的時候呢你的容量目前為止僅15.02距離我們2030的目標還有16GW所以有這樣子一個落差這是一個你們很大的落差我們先不要看別的光是今年1到8月我們僅增加0.74跟去年比起來去年大概是兩個GW那怎麼辦你們的目標你們的產能一個個在往後你們目標設這麼多到目前5年之後"},{"start":11130.781,"end":11139.778,"text":"一般業者認為你到20就差不多了你把他定在30有可能嗎署長你要不要做滾動式的修正你要不要做修正"},{"start":11140.717,"end":11167.749,"text":"是這是我們的目標那我們會努力來達成我覺得像目前講署長跟部長五年後可能你們都不在其位可是呢你們如果用我們這些數據來告訴我們的話都是告訴我們說你們是目標目標永遠都在期望未來的一個目標我覺得這對我個人來說部長你同意吧這對我們未來說這個其實不是太公平的你應該是滾動式的不斷告訴我們現在已經告訴你今年跟去年比就是比較少那未來該怎麼辦是不是"},{"start":11169.75,"end":11188.816,"text":"包委員我們還是會把這個目標當作目標來努力但是包委員就是說事實上還有另外一個方式就是太秀換新的部分因為過去的轉換效率大概只有十出頭十幾而已現在可能都可以做到三十所以它這個會是原來的超過一倍以上"},{"start":11189.176,"end":11200.703,"text":"還有就是你剛剛說到的屋頂屋頂你的誘因我覺得你可以再增強因為屋頂目前看起來比陸域跟水域來說應該是比較是OK大家接受的比較高嘛你可以從這個角度來嘛對不對還有最後一個部分啦因為光電板目前嘛你那時候在公開承諾說萬一說你這個水庫光電板如果有任何疑義的話你會暫緩"},{"start":11212.429,"end":11236.207,"text":"那個時候你是在對於台南地區這個樣的承諾是對於全國嗎全國萬一說地方政府有異議的話目前來說都是暫緩嗎還是只針對台南這個SOP本來是適用於全台南全國嘛 不是只有在台南嘛對不對 而且我覺得你要定立標準你不要把很多的問題全部留給地方政府那個整個標準來說中央就應該負起這個角色嘛好不好"},{"start":11236.927,"end":11261.173,"text":"所以說呢光電板的我的問題就是你的滾動性的修正還有你要給明確的目標然後呢你告訴我說2035要給我1692個大安森林公園土地哪裡來這是要跨部會來否則的話光是一個目標然後告訴我目標我們人都不在了你還在一個目標你讓下面一任怎麼辦永續環境的經營是每一個人現場都需要有角色跟責任的好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11267.918,"end":11288.164,"text":"接下来我们请高金树梅委员请做询答谢谢赵伟大家辛苦了部长想上洗手间了是吧想休息一下是吧"},{"start":11289.994,"end":11296.518,"text":"等你 等你质询好 那就是有请部长我们再请工部长谢谢"},{"start":11320.254,"end":11346.361,"text":"部长 卓院长他说10月底台美经贸谈判会达成协议今天已经是10月22号10月就已经要到底了这个协议的内容到底是什么呢是不是如我抛泡应上面看的赖金德总统所说的要降税率不叠加而且232条款的相关税金也能够得到最惠国的待遇是这样吗"},{"start":11346.781,"end":11360.161,"text":"你們能不能更具體的簡短的說明一下是或不是這個是都是目標你不要再講目標了是或不是還是到目前為止它還是一個秘密"},{"start":11361.448,"end":11376.987,"text":"這是我們努力的目標跟方向總統都已經說了啊不疊加降稅率啊它不是目標它只是已經說了你後面當然是目標但是我想請問10月底已經到了會不會是"},{"start":11378.194,"end":11404.454,"text":"你认为会不会是你要不要是不是 时间上我没有办法你要不要是我们努力的方向是这三项没有错对 降税不叠加你这样子的回应大家都清楚知道了那我们也不抱很大的期待那部长你也曾经说过要复制所谓的类科学园区要到美国是这样子吗类科学园区应该是我是"},{"start":11405.359,"end":11422.014,"text":"跟著人家講不是我講那所以這新聞不對樂於友邦分享經驗到美國設類科學園區分享經驗就是我們的產業群聚那這句話不是你講的主要我的意思是講它像是類科學園區這樣你不是這樣認為產業群聚"},{"start":11424.909,"end":11451.201,"text":"你不是這樣認為所以你不認為它是類科學園區所以這個是媒體誇大了是吧如果要把它解釋成類科學園區我也沒有反對好那10月17號我們看一下副總統蕭美琴她在國際媒體專訪的時候她說我們已經承諾在美國進行投資不僅僅是台積電還包括廣大的生態系其他部分從供應商到設計商"},{"start":11452.581,"end":11469.122,"text":"乃至其他晶片制造公司而肖副总统所说的那个广大的半导体制造生态系和您刚刚所谓所说的要复制所谓的类科学源去到美国这是同一件事情吗"},{"start":11470.388,"end":11498.021,"text":"報告委員事實上生態系比這個科學園區裡面做的事情還要大是不是同一件事情不是 範圍不一樣為什麼範圍不一樣因為科學園區基本上只有生產製造而已但是生態體系包括了剛剛提到的研發開始然後還有它的材料商 設備商甚至於到它下游的廠商跟客戶這個就是整個才是一個生態體系部長 不要在這邊再胡說八道好啦 不管你說的複製"},{"start":11499.461,"end":11525.269,"text":"不管你說的複製類科學園區或者是副總統所說的投資廣大的半導體製造生態系你們你要負責任的說因為你是經濟部長了你們有沒有估算投資的金額那我要講的是是不是傳說中美國勒索我們的那一筆數千億美元的金額報告委員因為廠商的投資還是要廠商才能夠決定"},{"start":11526.109,"end":11545.934,"text":"那你經濟部沒有想要去預估嗎你那麼刻意不負責任的說不預估嗎所以部長我要跟您說的是不管你說的類科學園區或副總統他說的廣大的半導體製造生態系主要的產業主力的產業就是半導體產業跟資通產業"},{"start":11549.275,"end":11565.251,"text":"我相信你很清楚在場的委員們都很清楚可能有絕大部分的我們廣大的百姓不知道但是我們清楚的了解兩個產業佔台灣出口的七成而這七成以今年來說就是3500億"},{"start":11567.873,"end":11593.72,"text":"而七成的出口產業複製到美國生產以後這七成的出口產業在台灣就從此被消滅了當然不會啊當然不會啊你不要說不會你到時候離開了台灣誰負責任你不要說你不要說不會大家都清楚知道好 而且你不要在這邊跟我們別講好不好因為他已經宣布11個廠了這是實際的事實啊"},{"start":11597.639,"end":11610.689,"text":"部長 我們中華民國的政府沒有做政策的決定這些人會過去嗎 不要在這邊再說了而我們台灣另外三層的傳統產業大家一直在講的傳統產業面對著美國的關稅壓力"},{"start":11614.932,"end":11622.215,"text":"而我們政府又要花人民的納稅前460億要去扶持他們這460億足夠嗎你看一下捷安特自行車這麼樣優質的產業美國他就予取予求隨意的扣押他們的產品而我們的傳統產業還會有生存的空間嗎我再強調一次半導體和支通產品佔台灣出口的七成"},{"start":11644.685,"end":11658.068,"text":"而這期程就是3500億一旦複製到美國之後台灣的高科技產業就空通化了你不要說不會而台灣產業在美國的關稅衝擊之下情況這麼險惡現在就算如賴清德總統他說的"},{"start":11665.13,"end":11678.823,"text":"爭取到更低的關稅又有什麼用根本就於師無補了嘛現在已經時間到了我的結論就是政府在我們的關稅談判之中簡直就是喪權辱國謝謝我們高經委員的詢問"},{"start":11686.606,"end":11697.246,"text":"謝謝宮部長我們現在因為中午時間我們不休息我們延長會開到今天的議程處理完畢那我們現在休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11883.766,"end":11909.974,"text":"好 我們繼續開會來 請各位官員請各位官員請坐好好 接下來我們繼續開會我們現在請賴會委員請做詢答謝謝主席有請經濟部部長跟能源署署長我們請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":11917.219,"end":11943.277,"text":"賴委員好是 那個兩位好這一次丹納斯颱風讓我深刻的體會到就是說極端氣候的一個那個常態性那在災後的一個復原其實已經不再是修補了我們希望就是說基礎建設可以前面的一個提升部長在這裡特別跟你探討就是說這個187億就是韌性的這個"},{"start":11944.318,"end":11950.004,"text":"任性的一個經費裡頭丹納斯颱風丹納斯颱風的特別預算187億就是600億裡頭你分配到187億那你其中有8億是給能源署嘛這裡我想請教署長這個8億的錢那你用在什麼地方"},{"start":11967.74,"end":11984.742,"text":"在這裡我要特別跟你提醒到一個三個重點就是關鍵性的一個產業電纜韌性的優先的一個試做這一段還有就是說智慧儲能還有加強式移動式的電源的一個建置不知道你準備到什麼樣的一個"},{"start":11986.317,"end":12009.395,"text":"是 我们那个8亿是要做定制型的这样的储能设备那我们主要是跟这些目前我们的办法已经公告了那么可以来提出有兴趣的业者就可以来提出申请那另外那个我们部长也特别指示就是说我们会主动出击也就是说"},{"start":12009.815,"end":12025.948,"text":"我們對幾個比較有需要這種定制型燃料電池的廠商像在各個工業區那我們會去主觀的做主動做說明那另外我們還有一筆預算除了這個8A以外我們還有一筆預算是做微電網"},{"start":12026.949,"end":12045.188,"text":"那做微电网的那这个办法我们也正在遇到好 署长这显然你已经准备好了可是你针对的就是在上一周我跟台电的总经理特别有提到了灾后的一个重建我们希望强化这个电缆的一个抗灾的一个韧性那"},{"start":12046.365,"end":12059.554,"text":"有沒有要優先做就像我們這幾個那個區域在當然是颱風受創的這麼嚴重就是說不管是台南不管是嘉義這這個地方你有沒有要優先施作呢"},{"start":12061.274,"end":12079.296,"text":"包委員 這個台電的部分它是有九個示範場對但是我們有盤點過大概所謂的孤島裡面其中大概有53個他們是有這樣的需求而且很希望這樣做那我們會從聯署還有其他的部分"},{"start":12080.037,"end":12107.93,"text":"去满足这五十几个这个丹纳斯台风这个是一个专款专案我们受创的那个地方是最严重的为什么没有从我们这个地方开始先做呢这个倒是我特别疑问的报告委员这个议题我们有跟台南市政府开过会市长都亲自主持那也来协调一些教育局等等的一些单位一起来找位置"},{"start":12108.77,"end":12130.948,"text":"因為畢竟所以有優先要做嘛對不對對事實上有在處理中那就是說我還特別在這裡提到了就是說你的韌性儲能的一個設備你必須要放在就是書上你的避難所啦你的避難所你要放在學校的體育館還是社區的活動中心甚至安置的一個中心是不是你們有一個完整的一個準備呢"},{"start":12131.568,"end":12141.808,"text":"是 就是因為要安放在學校的這個場域我們希望是說因為要結合學校的那個太陽能"},{"start":12144.859,"end":12163.716,"text":"但是安置的地方可能又是在活动中心所以如果能找到学校跟安置的活动中心是结合在周边的话那是最好的位置所以这个位置的选取是非常重要的一件事那就是地方政府来建议你们我们中央来做在这里我特别请教部长就是说你的整体"},{"start":12164.316,"end":12169.242,"text":"在做災後的韌性的一個提升是不是應該納入新科技新能源那我們比照就是說我講一個幻例給你聽就日本的那個河島河島的一個河災湖島的一個河災以後其實他們就轉型了轉型就是新能源新能源的一個建制"},{"start":12184.359,"end":12212.891,"text":"這個我不知道部長對這個議題了解多少可以不可以做就是說我在這裡特別點到了你的新能源你的新科技是什麼樣為主題巴偉園如果是氫能源的話我們現在在高雄的部分有一個嘉青站已經有了但是就要巴士進來可以就是示範性的運營這個部分那至於就是說您剛才這邊看到的是燃料電池的部分是"},{"start":12214.872,"end":12234.945,"text":"這個現在還叫做灰氫啦就是說利用LNG轉換成氫然後利用這個燃料電池來發電這就是剛剛講的那個定制型的這個示範性的一些實驗這也要推動好 部長顯然你對這個議題是非常的深入了解的我們希望多增加多增加這樣子的一個"},{"start":12244.751,"end":12270.264,"text":"那事後我希望就是說可以得到你更多的一個資料不管是充電室就移動式充電室那是不是用光除那個氫能的一個發電系統我希望有這一方面的一個資料跟本席做參考然後是不是優先在我們台南建置怎麼樣的一個那個就是在災後的一個儲備那個儲備能量的地方好不好好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":12277.645,"end":12278.247,"text":"接下來我們請吳宗憲委員請做詢談 謝謝"},{"start":12285.126,"end":12310.763,"text":"麻煩水利署署長有來嗎今天我們請水利署同時我會跟那個部長說因為部長我剛剛聽你跟高津樹梅的回答有關台積電的部分那部長我們請一起沒關係部長不用部長坐著就好這部分我要講一個啦我小老百姓啦民進黨告訴我台積電的存在是護國深山因為台積電對於世界的重要性所以是我們戰略上面的護國深山當初他這樣跟我講今天送出去又跟我說沒事"},{"start":12311.684,"end":12336.87,"text":"所以我是老百姓我到底要聽誰的第二個美國也講得很清楚嘛讓台積電到美國去投資讓一些產能到美國他也是為了要降低萬一台海有事情的時候對美國經濟的衝擊嘛那他們也這樣講啊我們的政府跟我們說不是這樣那我要聽誰的誰講的是真的這是我小老百姓的心聲所以部長您剛跟高金這樣回答我在旁邊聽"},{"start":12338.59,"end":12359.819,"text":"當然您是專家啦但是同一個事情以前告訴我的跟今天告訴我的不一樣那我就會懷疑到底以前民進黨跟我說的是真的還是今天民進黨跟我說的是真的第二個美國政府那樣講跟台灣的政府講的又不一樣又彼此矛盾依據最基本的人類邏輯啦我總是要知道哪一個對哪一個錯所以啊"},{"start":12360.953,"end":12381.611,"text":"不要為了官位來騙我們人民這是我剛聽完高津素梅跟您的對話之後我的想法那個水路署長我現在請教一個問題就是這幾天宜蘭那邊雨下很大我有看到發現一個頭城外澳到接天宮那個地方的道路"},{"start":12382.492,"end":12404.648,"text":"那個又再淹水了那我要講今年7月的時候那邊曾經有淹水達到1公尺那我想救災防災勝於救災這個是政府一直來告訴我們的那這個地方的淹水也不是今天才有那我想請問一下對於這個頭城外要這個部分呢你們是不是有所作為已經淹好多次了這邊"},{"start":12407.898,"end":12435.354,"text":"因為我不曉得委員所談的具體位置在哪一邊好 那我現在跟你講我以為說你們多少會知道一點它是在那個外澳通往接天宮的那個道路上面那你們稍微去了解一下在去年 在今年的7月27號那個當天其實淹水曾經進入到一級警戒那淹水在那個濱海路二段一巷往接天宮的寒洞曾經積水達到1公尺我不知道委員 是"},{"start":12435.914,"end":12453.302,"text":"那個我們經過初步了解那邊都是屬於縣政府管理的區域排水那這一個部分我們會來主動跟縣政府這邊共同來合作那你可以承諾我說你會這個部分你們會趕快積極來處理嗎是 我們會來跟縣政府來合作好 謝謝今天我要的就是你的這個承諾是"},{"start":12454.423,"end":12472.007,"text":"那我想治水這個其實是一個大事情嘛有時候也不是地方政府一個人就搞了定一定需要中央我們平常經常講是這樣所以很多治水的經費其實是在中央所以還是要中央麻煩我們不能說地方很急民眾很急地方很急結果中央覺得不急那就不好啦好不好"},{"start":12472.987,"end":12488.613,"text":"這個麻煩您那再來我想請問一下行政院在2023年3月的時候有核定的那個那個蘇澳溪的分洪工程計畫那我知道這個計畫是那個圓山子分洪之後的第二個那種大型的那個分洪隧道"},{"start":12489.694,"end":12510.092,"text":"署長您知道吧我知道好 謝謝那我想請問一下因為這個計畫它在修改後在今年初就已經送到行政院去審查了但到現在10月底還沒有下文雖然署長您不是院長但是我想請問一下這個到底是怎麼回事因為一再拖下去會造成"},{"start":12510.752,"end":12538.504,"text":"成本的往上提通膨的問題 物價的問題會不會搞到最後變成是又沒有錢做了所以署長您知不知道為什麼會卡在行政院那邊是 報告委員這個案件因為本來的整體經費是54億元後來因為整體物價的調整到75.68現在變成75億元因為大幅增加21億元那這個期間當然還有碰到很多的整個預算調整的問題"},{"start":12539.324,"end":12566.866,"text":"所以院裡面現在正在進行相關的審理工作那我們已經報出去了我也知道漲了20億元但是今年初已經那個修改後的已經送過去行政送過去了那這個部分因為我有看到雲林縣它其實它那個楷米颱風之後它也有一個治水的計畫而且它的費用是16億4千多萬在雲林嘛那"},{"start":12567.586,"end":12589.904,"text":"在九月的時候你們就已經就已經都完成了對不對我想這個計畫您知道嘛是 我們開了以後我的意思就是說因為同樣是水利署轄下的防洪跟分洪工程那既然雲林在風災後馬上就核定而且啟動補助的工程那因為但是宜蘭的這個卻上去了九個多月所以您"},{"start":12590.905,"end":12613.605,"text":"您可不可以幫我們一個忙幫宜蘭人一個忙親自去跟行政院協調一下看可不可以讓我們宜蘭的這個案子緊述通過組長可以嗎包委這也是我們努力的方向我們會來做這個事情就是我還是希望這樣我們讓每一個宜蘭人還有經過宜蘭的人可以安全我想這個才是最重要"},{"start":12614.346,"end":12630.377,"text":"因為我想說我們都記得很久以前那個15年前大概到15年前的昨天其實我不知道你記不記得就是那個梅姬颱風其實曾經有一輛車掉到海裡去到現在我們都還找不到那輛車那那個其實很可怕而且是15年前的昨天"},{"start":12630.777,"end":12654.243,"text":"大家都還歷歷在目所以是不是說我們還是把治水這件事情做好然後保護每個人的安全那我最後我希望您在兩個月內給我幾個回復我幾個問題好嗎來第一個水利署可不可以比照中央補助其他縣市的重大治水工程的模式推動投誠外澳周邊防洪跟治水計畫這第一個問題"},{"start":12655.703,"end":12677.296,"text":"第二個問題水利署有沒有已經針對了宜蘭縣淹水熱點完成整體的盤點那第三個問題有沒有具體的整治期程那我希望這幾個都是很重要的議題那我想麻煩貴署在兩個月內給我回覆這三個問題好不好非常謝謝委員我們會來努力好的好的謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":12679.017,"end":12690.625,"text":"好 那我們請相關主管將剛剛委員所說的一時間來說明清楚 謝謝接下來我們請李昆城委員請做詢問謝謝主席 我們請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":12707.925,"end":12727.428,"text":"李委員好部長好 現在大家很關心到底輝達到底要花落台灣的哪裡那我請問一下這個目前輝達跟新進部或是跟台北市政府有沒有定一個期限在這個期限必須要確定在哪裡 有沒有"},{"start":12729.225,"end":12741.616,"text":"輝達只是跟我們講說希望我們在10月24號之前可以提供他但是有正式新聞給你們嗎有有有有正式新聞所以他是說10月24號之前希望能夠確定在哪裡"},{"start":12742.145,"end":12771.451,"text":"不是確定在哪裡所以提供他可能如果十七十八沒有談下來的話可能的備案的基地那他們會啟動就是除了十七十八之外就會開始所以不是說10月24號沒有確定之後他就要離開台灣了不是不是他們會留在台灣會留在台灣有確定嗎有確定一定會留在台灣嗎否則他就不用叫我們找備案找備案對啊然後我問一下找備案有沒有新北市的備案我們會提供有沒有提供啊"},{"start":12772.436,"end":12790.764,"text":"會提供是提供了沒啊還沒有啊23號他說24號之前嘛24號之前如果24號之前沒有在17 18的話他就要找備案了對這有確定了那所以你找的備案裡面會提供這個新北市就對了會包括來新北市你有看中哪裡"},{"start":12793.545,"end":12816.395,"text":"我關心啊 我在新北市就算不在我的三重 我三重沒有地了嘛那新北市在哪裡 在林口 還在哪裡大家都關心嘛 比較合適的比如說三公頃 然後是比較適合它的一個通過大樓的部分那你應該是有準備好了嘛就是說如果到滴答24號沒有的話 你就要提供備案給輝達了嘛對不對大致上有 對啊那有沒有 新北市有嘛對不對 對啊在哪裡要幾個啦 幾個"},{"start":12822.185,"end":12845.15,"text":"新北市提供幾個地方他們這個 輝達認為還是保密給他們因為如果給他們不是 我沒有問你地點了嘛我是說新北市提供幾個給他參考不是 因為如果我們這個也不能講喔對 我們公開以後 那輝達沒選他沒有沒有 所以我沒有說地點啦我說提供幾個給他啦兩個 三個 還是一個我可能要回去check一下這個這麼重要 很多"},{"start":12848.018,"end":12854.054,"text":"我說總totally總totally有多少我們會提供超過10個提供超過10個我們的態度是這樣 回答"},{"start":12857.113,"end":12882.822,"text":"他留在台灣這重點對對對那對我們來講的話事實上每一關基地我們供應沒有沒有我在台北市都是第一名也在爭取那我們新北也是在爭取啊所以我是問說那新北你提供幾個嗎只要我們提供的我們經濟部認為都是第一名都是最好的只是說輝達他有他的這個考量我們也尊重那17 18有解嗎這個我就不知道了你不知道"},{"start":12884.037,"end":12913.107,"text":"所以這個是地方政府的事情嘛 跟經濟部沒有關係經濟部只負責說17 18沒有要提供備案給 給回答就對了好那再請教一下這一個部長齁這個昨天總統有講這個好消息有關關稅的啦他說這一個經貿的談判呢會有很好的進展所以呢會降低暫行關稅20%而且不疊加232條例相關的這個關稅朝最惠國待遇的方向努力"},{"start":12914.127,"end":12936.637,"text":"都正確吧對我們是往這個方向來努力沒有錯不是啊那有沒有確定啊因為總統我看他是講的很有信心啊是不是已經大概確定了不是你要有最後的這個總結會議以後才是算確定對那現在都是一個努力的方向那現在就這個談判如果是進度是百分之百的話那現在到底有幾%80%還是90%應該"},{"start":12939.608,"end":12952.049,"text":"差不多90%了到90%了對對對就是技術性的談判大致上那你應該都確定了嘛但是沒有那我就以總統講的為準因為到90%因為接下來就是細節了對不對"},{"start":12953.547,"end":12980.707,"text":"接下來就是要總結會議所以大概就是總統講的這個方向嘛 對不對那這樣是好消息啊是 我們努力啦 我們努力好 那最後 主席那個我上禮拜有問這個國防部 顧部長就是說啊這個烏克蘭總統卓恩斯基他有講到說我們有這一個台灣的廠商他說是有提供不曉得是什麼樣的零件"},{"start":12981.788,"end":12995.374,"text":"然後呢給俄羅斯然後給他們做成的這個飛彈然後國防部說要跟你們經濟部瞭解後來有瞭解嗎有嗎我請那個我們貿易署有沒有這件事情因為這很嚴重因為這是總統親自講的喔"},{"start":12998.414,"end":13021.176,"text":"烏克蘭總統卓恩斯基他親自講的有沒有去調查 這很嚴重耶那顧部長說會跟你們討論有沒有 沒有同仁跟我講國防部還沒有跟我們聯絡這個不行這樣子我覺得你要把這件事情當作一個很嚴重的事情來看那我們主動跟他聯絡 跟國防部聯絡好了對啊 這件事情一個禮拜給我一個結果好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":13027.079,"end":13048.98,"text":"好 我們接下來請錫富奎委員質詢謝謝主席 有請我們經濟部長 水利署林署長 還有台電曾董事長曾董事長薛委員好 部長好"},{"start":13049.884,"end":13073.024,"text":"部長我想賴總統前天在一個小水利論壇有提到2030年中央要投入9000億元帶動民間的投資4兆元推動再生能源跟綠色基礎建設部長知道這個事情嗎我有看到書面那部長我想部長你在擔任秘書長任內知道屏東有一個很重要的案子大潮州人工湖"},{"start":13073.7,"end":13093.961,"text":"那这个案子去年底被国会退回到经济部修正到目前为止一年的好像还没有送出经济部那问题出在哪里报告委员这个案件在去年六月送行政院那在年底的时候有请那个县政府要来做相关的环境影响的一个差异分析以后"},{"start":13094.642,"end":13120.451,"text":"然後院在這邊再來受理這個案件其實我們針對這個案件我們認為是有效益的所以有請縣政府要共同合作我們很樂觀其成對 我想這個大潮州人工湖是全台唯一也是東南亞最大的一個人工補助湖它效果很好對 它具有洪水的一個減災的效果還有可以涵養地下水最重要也是我們未來這個水資源很重要的一個供應的一個系統那"},{"start":13122.586,"end":13126.153,"text":"鄭董事長你最近有去看過嗎大嫂說我有去過兩次"},{"start":13128.907,"end":13154.828,"text":"对于这个水利发电有没有空间可以发展这个水利发电的案子这个应该是做微水利就是说它基本上是一个有水量但是没有水头的水利设施所以我们大概只能做微水利那其实有很多学者专家有给我们建议那比方说那个丁董事长丁测试董事长我想委员应该也熟那我们如果可以做我们来做主要是水权的主管机关跟台电来合作会比较方便"},{"start":13155.387,"end":13178.504,"text":"我想這個都是我們可以多面向來評估尤其我們現在水跟電都是我們很重要的一個資源來源聽起來評估說比竹子門的效益還更大應該要這樣講就是說現在我們有很多就是有水量有水量流動的地方如果有一些適當的微水力設施它確實是有發電的潛力"},{"start":13180.08,"end":13194.842,"text":"在這邊我還是要特別再拜託部長這個案子我們要加快推動這個我們從好幾任的縣長一直講到現在那尤其我們第一期這個發揮了很大的效益我們期待第二期繼續來努力我聽這個案子能不能加快進行"},{"start":13196.803,"end":13213.553,"text":"主要是開發這個人工湖才要做環評所以我們會來跟縣政府一起努力好 那我想我們還是要幫屏東鄉親請命一下 部長我們這個自來水普及率到目前只有72%遠低於全國的平均值"},{"start":13214.073,"end":13231.529,"text":"那周縣長也上次在這個我們小琉球的時候也感謝李董事長這個小琉球的這個5000噸的配水站做好之後我想小琉球不會有缺水的問題但是我們還是要提醒權限的部分這個普及率能不能再加快速度一下董事長"},{"start":13234.999,"end":13245.195,"text":"謝謝委員指導 那整個屏東縣的供水普及率的部分 我們屏東氣處這邊還有我們配合水利署會積極來爭取無災水地區的一個改善計畫"},{"start":13246.823,"end":13267.652,"text":"那會加速一些沿管的工程 那至於整個平溶線裡面的一些強化供水韌性的部分 包括我們管線更新或是說有些水壓比較低的地區 我們可能會來行密合適的地點來興建一些配水設施 配水池或是增加一些加壓設備 讓整個"},{"start":13268.471,"end":13289.5,"text":"屏東區域的供水可以更穩定的對 董事長這個水源的部分要優先先找因為你們如果水源沒有先找到這邊要增加普及率也是一個大問題是 這我想應該同步要去進行找這個水源的部分對 我們現在屏東縣主要的供水水源是牡丹水庫還有一些林邊湖流水跟一些地下水"},{"start":13290.02,"end":13309.514,"text":"那如果有地下水可以開發的話如果水質OK的話我們會汲取所以未來也可以請台塘吳董事長來幫忙有有有我們有跟台塘他們的管理處有幾個水井如果可以的話我們希望能夠提供給我們作為民生的一個水源"},{"start":13310.094,"end":13334.369,"text":"好 謝謝我想部長最近監察院有特別提到太陽光電他們有一個報告對於太陽光電生設的一個過程存在行政程序不透明審查標準不一還有地方勢力介入的一個問題甚至有很多的外資因為這樣的壓力退出了臺灣市場部長針對這個部分我們經濟部對於未來的能源政策有什麼看法"},{"start":13335.034,"end":13359.612,"text":"是 我請那個署長我們已經針對那幾項事實上已經有一些因應的做法我是不是請署長緊要的跟委員做報告是 有關就是說太陽光電有些弊案我們目前已經跟廉政署成立一個廉政平台那也邀請法務部跟高檢署一起來參加那至於地方所涉及的各個部門因為它有專業的執掌"},{"start":13361.013,"end":13382.405,"text":"那所以在面對不同的申請的狀況的時候他會面對不同的這個條件那我們為了協和目前我們是固定對光電比較多的台南嘉義高雄屏東這四個縣市我們是隔週每週就會找兩個縣市來就一定的申請案件來做討論來協助他們加速完成"},{"start":13383.149,"end":13397.316,"text":"當然部長我們支持這個有不法一定要嚴辦但是針對合法申請的業者也應該要給予保障那尤其有些案子都已經申請很久了這個這個月托為了我們對於我們臺灣的能源我們也擔心不夠這個真的是要審慎來面對這樣一個問題好不好部長謝謝好謝謝好我們接下來請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":13418.186,"end":13443.392,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長國務部長水利署署長署長好我先請問一下喔部長剛剛大家在討論這個揮打然後說這個17 18如果沒拿到的話24號前要繳交備案嘛對不對那您有準備大概10多個備案請問一下那我也關心一下台中有沒有備案"},{"start":13445.218,"end":13469.84,"text":"我可能要查一下台中就要查一下 新北不用查直接就回答有台中有沒有 可不可以請同仁調一下資料我們是有去問地方政府 如果地方政府有回饋一些給我們的話 我們就會把它你有沒有印象台中有啦 我可能要回去查一下私底下再跟您報告私底下跟我報告 好 我多久可以接到你的訊息"},{"start":13471.653,"end":13477.259,"text":"一個小時24號之前24號之前你是通知揮打還是通知我"},{"start":13478.783,"end":13508.044,"text":"不是吧一兩個小時就告訴我台中有沒有備案這樣就好好不好沒有我要積極的去催促地方政府配合啊不是24號通知我我不重要回答比較重要啊可以嗎盡快盡快好好謝謝那第二個要在這邊喔也要拜託水利署啦水利署其實我在上一個預算會期我有特別關注我們台中有關於柳川市期的這一個預算請問一下明年度有沒有編列啊"},{"start":13508.82,"end":13530.409,"text":"有 這個已經列在我們下一期預算從115年度開始會來做一些這個納入來做檢討我想也跟部長報告柳川是一期 二期 三期其實都做得滿漂亮的啦那也感謝經濟部在幫忙協助那所以三期做完民眾都很期待四期啊"},{"start":13530.809,"end":13548.044,"text":"所以在去年是很可惜沒有這個機會我們會跟市政府一起來合法那我想水利署也答應我明年會編列這個預算那當然我會積極的催促台中市政府應該要把計畫寫好符合你們的一些需求大家一起來努力但你有提供預算他拿不到是他的問題"},{"start":13548.905,"end":13561.144,"text":"但首先我要先處理源頭有確定這個預算那也在這邊感謝水利署是 謝謝那另外我要再拜託部長因為部長我們看到其實經濟部有提供一些不管是菜市場"},{"start":13562.345,"end":13592.025,"text":"或者是一些商圈在改造更新啊或者是市場美學的一些計畫那我有看到在我們的像我之前有爭取我們台中第五市場有一個市場美學有做申請這樣的計畫案也有納入到這個部分希望明年度也有一定的預算比例能夠繼續的運用在市場的更新或者是商圈的一個協助這個部分呢"},{"start":13594.688,"end":13609.644,"text":"應該沒問題吧沒問題那我也另外是希望說因為不知道經濟部有沒有去研究那有一些市場我們說夜市好了夜市能夠如果做成行人徒步區會不會有助於增加整個經濟的帶動部長您的見解呢"},{"start":13612.632,"end":13640.563,"text":"我同意但是這個可能要跟市政府做一些討論當然要討論因為它有地方的一些民情還有交通的一個問題那我是希望說經濟部能不能加大力度的提供胡蘿蔔來鼓勵他們能夠來申請這個部分商圈的整治本來就有來 說明一下我是針對行人徒步區行人徒步區的部分它還是會涉及到地方政府的法規我知道補助的話有沒有"},{"start":13642.462,"end":13652.19,"text":"補助的話我們對於商圈的一些發展環境改善那邊我們是會有一些協助可以協助啦設計方面可以做一些美學的設計"},{"start":13653.784,"end":13677.799,"text":"但是整個投資下去我們還是要跟地方政府一起來合作當然當然不會把所有責任都放在你那邊但是我覺得這個是我最近所關注到的一些議題也希望說能夠大家一起來努力那我想再次感謝經濟部在這兩次我看到不管是水利署或者是我們的商發署能夠幫我協助到地方的一些需求我們也非常感謝以上 謝謝"},{"start":13688.31,"end":13689.311,"text":"請黃宏威質詢好 謝謝主席我請部長 龔部長"},{"start":13708.169,"end":13735.458,"text":"好部長好請教一下這大家都非常關心的就談美關稅總統說呢有好消息那總統比較確定的是說這次的談判沒有涉及匯率那當然在媒體呢就是大家就傳言那起碼有兩項一個是全面開放美豬或者對於美國車的零關稅那今天早上我看到院長有接受採訪"},{"start":13736.598,"end":13757.65,"text":"他沒有正面去回答這個問題只有提到說這個食安啊什麼還是會有保障等等好那我想請教部長就您所了解開放美豬跟開放就是讓美國車零關稅是不是在這一次總統所講的好消息中的其中的兩項"},{"start":13759.466,"end":13777.573,"text":"包委員因為美豬的部分因為我跟談判團隊討論的比較是製造業經濟部主管那我來問你有關於車子的關稅好不好車子的確是有touch到有納入這次的談判那我們這次是針對美規車的零關稅嗎"},{"start":13781.596,"end":13805.671,"text":"是美製車是美國製造的車子所以美製車的話那就代表你不管是美規歐規或者是日本車的品牌只要是在美國製造在美國製造就可以零關稅是不是這樣不一定是零關稅因為談判的結果還沒有做最後確定但是有可能零關稅"},{"start":13807.795,"end":13827.064,"text":"我们希望不要了希望我们希望就是我们的底线是什么我们底线是不要零个关税还是底线就是到最后就是没办法就零关税那我们的这个因为现在也有很多其实这是好几个力量的冲击比如对消费者来讲零关税蛮好的但是对于这个"},{"start":13827.904,"end":13846.503,"text":"对于我们的一些劳工来讲劳工朋友其实也很担心所以我们没有零关税我们现在是17.5%那我们能够接受的最多的底线是什么呢这个就不好大概就是所以可以确定的就是美制车的关税会下降"},{"start":13848.312,"end":13862.833,"text":"會下降方向上方向是如此那而且他不單純只是美規也有歐規因為我知道我們也有一些歐規車在跟我們抗議貿易通關是他的貨品來源是哪裡是如果美規"},{"start":13863.514,"end":13877.951,"text":"美国然后他有附加价值一定的比例他才可以有这样的税率彼此我们也去也是一样我们不能用洗产地的方式拿国外的东西卖给美国然后享受这个优惠关税这个也不行当然"},{"start":13878.371,"end":13898.193,"text":"所以这边就是我们要了解就是很多消费者是关心了那另外要请教一下就是最近川普动作很多那他马上就要来亚洲访问那其中一部分他在因为他不参加那个APEC但是他会去韩国"},{"start":13899.695,"end":13906.48,"text":"而且這次傳出美國跟韓國渴望會有這個有關關稅談判新的進展而且說南韓關稅渴望降到15%像日本也15%如果韓國也降到15%的話那當然"},{"start":13919.769,"end":13935.554,"text":"對於台灣來講因為他們兩個國家在很多產業跟我們是競爭的好所以如果韓國降成15%的話那麼是不是對台灣來說台灣來說是很大的壓力我們有機會談到15%嗎"},{"start":13937.595,"end":13953.85,"text":"是 报告委员这个也是我们努力的方向的确就像您讲的我们很多产品是跟日韩是有一些竞争关系但是对我们比较辛苦的是因为我们对美国的顺差远高于这两个国家所以我们当然会一定会努力希望"},{"start":13954.511,"end":13979.543,"text":"我們有沒有機會到15%現在韓國如果15%的話對我們壓力太大了對對對 我們努力那另外 大家很關心的我們20%你們說是暫時性的這一暫時也好幾個月都過去了請問這個暫時還要維持多久然後我們可以什麼時候不用疊加現在我們還是20%是疊加結果人家韓國準備要降到15%了"},{"start":13980.843,"end":14004.573,"text":"如果今年不是今年底是本月底這個月底韓國跟美國真的談出一個關稅降到15%而我們還要疊加所以請問一下所謂我們的暫時性關稅部長能不能給我們一個就是一個期盼可不可以在今年底之前我們至少看到我們不需要疊加"},{"start":14006.251,"end":14034.28,"text":"這個我們來努力那我的信心雖然沒有辦法到百分之百但是我滿有信心可以努力那部長可不可以跟我們透露一下我們到底什麼時候會台美之間這些關稅的這些談判大概幾月份可以明朗因為最後的總結會議還是要雙方彼此間可以達成共識以後或者有時間十月底有沒有可能因為最近剛好在"},{"start":14035.287,"end":14058.51,"text":"在APEC的世界呢所以就很難了因為他們都在忙都在忙要怎麼跟那個習近平見面怎麼去跟忙跟李在民見面他要去東南亞嘛所以10月底不可能11月底呢我們盡量11月最快最快要到11月才有可能明朗好不好我們希望這個暫時不要再繼續拖時間好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":14065.796,"end":14081.449,"text":"好 接下來我們請武力法委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長好 國務部長"},{"start":14090.374,"end":14114.146,"text":"部長好這一次的丹納斯及728的這個特別條例我們看到在經濟部這邊電力系統編列了110億元那其中有一個叫做小型防災的微電網跟移動式電源那我也看到就是我上次總諮詢有說這個部分會"},{"start":14116.207,"end":14125.113,"text":"提8億元的經費 但是我比較想了解就是目前規劃要在哪些地方做怎麼做是"},{"start":14128.257,"end":14146.679,"text":"目前大概两部分那经济部的是我们会请地方政府来提他认为他最需要的受灾的地方那这方面好那另外是台电公司那么他也已经优先选定一些地方我们大概两方面我们能源署这8亿跟台电公司会配合一起来做"},{"start":14147.119,"end":14176.759,"text":"好當然是要跟台電公司配合所以我這邊有一個就是內政部消防署他曾經盤點了13個縣市186處議程災害孤島地區那這其中當然有非常多非常多的一個原鄉那事實上我們也很關心因為這一次有一個令人非常驚訝的就是大家正在關注馬太安溪煙色湖的時候竟然呢"},{"start":14177.319,"end":14199.651,"text":"在台東海端鄉最裡面的利稻物路兩個部落它的災況沒有人知道很慢傳出來而且裡面就是因為有廠商剛好有帶衛星電話才好不容易把畫面傳出來"},{"start":14201.052,"end":14225.625,"text":"那當然這個部分是讓我們覺得非常的驚訝啦所以我們其實非常關心就是這一些一成災害孤島的地區我們是不是應該善用這一次的經費好好的去盤點到底我們應該留在不是公所囉因為公所不知道喔現在是要留在各部落我們到底要為他們建置什麼留什麼那不曉得部長你有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":14229.91,"end":14254.129,"text":"内政部的确是有把台湾的这些可能成为孤岛的部分做了一些盘点那我们跟他们也有去初步询问就是说这些孤岛需要刚刚提到的这些电网设施微电网设施因为还有些通讯设施的部分目前来讲比较优先的大概有50几个地方那我们就会优先来看这50几个地方"},{"start":14255.15,"end":14282.385,"text":"要設置在哪一個地方就是它比如說學校裡面還是社區中心還是等等一些情況我就是希望能夠好好的比較細微的去做一個精緻的盤點跟設置好不好對 沒有錯那第二個部分我想請教一下因為我們其實這幾年每一次去勘災其實我有一些心得我以高雄的那馬下區跟桃園區為例"},{"start":14284.486,"end":14312.181,"text":"他們一個是男子仙溪一個是老農溪但是呢這個河川的這個界點讓我很頭痛啊為什麼因為以桃園來講他可能河川署的這個範圍比較長所以呢經常他們要求做戶案的時候比較容易取得經費可是呢我們來去看納瑪夏的時候他那個男子仙溪大部分都是水保署"},{"start":14313.101,"end":14338.84,"text":"所以每一次做出的互按需求好像都找不到錢我其實有去看了一下我們有一個中央管籍跨省市河川界點有這樣的一個會議我看了一下其實看似好像每隔幾年都有在檢討但是我實際去看沒有做任何的調整是很難嗎"},{"start":14340.121,"end":14356.412,"text":"還有現在的坑溝其實像溪現在的溪是河所以我覺得莫拉克之後其實我們的整個地形地貌河川都產生很大的改變我不太曉得說到底有沒有檢討的平台有沒有檢討的精緻"},{"start":14359.554,"end":14378.903,"text":"八號委員這個確實有些難度因為各單位都有他的本職要去做的工作但是我覺得委員所談的我們可以納入我們去年剛成立的水域流域的一個推動小組但是由行政院副院長承舉的很好有這個平台機制我們可以在那邊來做討論沒有問題"},{"start":14380.784,"end":14396.589,"text":"我們真的希望討論一下因為我覺得至少他在經費上真的就完全不一樣心有餘力不足那我覺得這個都要全盤的來監討要不然每一個區域都很不公平對不對那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":14397.449,"end":14407.5,"text":"好 那第三個我就想要了解一下關於水的問題因為我們經常在處理民眾想要設減水想要設所謂自來水但是這幾年整個風箱都變了就是我們原鄉地區開始都在掙扎要自來水"},{"start":14416.329,"end":14443.122,"text":"這個跟我們過去不喜歡舊木更新現在都掙扎要排隊舊木更新可是政府的經費不知道是越來越多還是越來越少那以這個供水普及率鹽管加減水我知道屏東72跟人家都90幾差很多那沒有關係時間的關係我希望給我一個原因一個書面報告但是我也要問一個我比較關心的就是關於鹽管的部分因為我們全國跑你看這個濁西鄉"},{"start":14447.785,"end":14452.074,"text":"21.56欸那我要講喔我也有很多案子 卓西鄉很多部落都跟我要喔"},{"start":14453.168,"end":14477.298,"text":"但是我發現很難喔我不知道到底是縣政府的問題還是鄉公所的問題還是到底是中央的問題我不知道喔但是真的很難喔難怪它那麼低我們會來努力啦有些是因為地方他們已經有一個減水的管理委員會那他們可能有一些疑慮那這個我們會再來努力因為本來這就是我們應該來推動的我知道的有時候也不太是這樣啦"},{"start":14478.258,"end":14506.777,"text":"我覺得其實我們這全國各縣市我們大概都看得出哪裡一樣哪裡不一樣我真的覺得有一些很麻煩的地方人家不需要附上的附件他需要這就很怪那我想這個部分反正就給我原因給我原因好不好就盤這一些很低的像萬榮鄉海端鄉都很低好 謝謝那再來就是最後一個問題因為我很高興我進來立法院的時候我知道在我們的經濟部"},{"start":14507.978,"end":14522.773,"text":"有一個技術師那很開心那個時候他就有提供仁愛鄉做大合當歸那後來悟台鄉也爭取到去幫助他們的金釵石湖那後來112年補助兩個113年補助三個"},{"start":14525.396,"end":14551.545,"text":"今年度補助四個其實我是要肯定因為我覺得我們原鄉有了這個那個技術師的經費導入真的這一些的產業發展很不一樣但是我想請教一下所有這幾個案子是哪一個單位在做工研院嘛我是要提醒啦其實我是故意問啦為什麼因為"},{"start":14553.069,"end":14569.217,"text":"不要帶案子去找標的我發現這個效果很差我覺得應該是要來自地方的主動需求去協助 理解我的意思嗎因為我都 很多我都知道那我就知道他們的效果不一樣"},{"start":14570.821,"end":14584.787,"text":"我只是要做這個提醒可以嗎我們做地方創生也是要以原鄉他們的在地需求為主我希望是需求之後工研院來幫忙但是我不太希望是主動已經有一些技術一定是解決在地他們的需求為主那謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":14596.854,"end":14614.892,"text":"好 何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在好 洪孟凱委員主席謝謝主席謝謝 麻煩請龔明欣部長部長"},{"start":14622.503,"end":14648.377,"text":"好 部長好我想大家都很關心台美關係關稅的一個談判嘛那我想很多委員都有詢問過但我延續昨天我在總質詢的一個詢問我再請教一下因為現在10月底有可能川習會那川普也已經講是說台灣議題一定會被討論當中那我們過去您擔任秘書長也好或是說擔任現在部長也好其實關稅的部分也都有共同的一個參與我想請教有沒有"},{"start":14649.177,"end":14673.309,"text":"確定或說了解說在這個過程裡面台灣的台美關稅的一個議題有可能也會被納入其中去做討論報告委員據我自己的參與的部分我沒有全面參與但是台美之間的談判應該是跟中國跟美中的談判或是美中的議題沒有直接關係那所以川普所講的台灣議題"},{"start":14674.733,"end":14691.151,"text":"就我们的理解或者说我们的谈判团队来讲而且巴委员事实上跟我们组团的是USTR跟商务部但是跟美国组团好像是他们的财政部长所以好像也不太一样"},{"start":14692.052,"end":14716.301,"text":"是不一樣 但是現在我們先想問的是因為大家 你們是談判的代表我想對於台灣2300的社團來講都希望我們談判的代表能夠談出一個亮麗的成績這個是我們絕對不會期待或是說我們絕對不會唱衰說我希望談判不好我希望你談判好但是現在很明確的川普總統就已經有提到是說他月底見面的時候會拿台灣議題來談"},{"start":14717.722,"end":14735.259,"text":"那台灣議題到底是包括政治議題包括主權議題還是包括經濟議題有沒有掌握這個我就不知道也沒有辦法掌握對對對對那會不會擔心有包括經濟議題甚至如果說美中談完之後有對台灣有不利的一個條款"},{"start":14735.879,"end":14747.982,"text":"譬如說台灣的產品排除或說技術或是關稅的部分那我們有沒有備案或是因應不是 看起來就是沒有關係啊因為我們主要談的是是你的期待還是你了解沒有關係"},{"start":14749.493,"end":14776.486,"text":"至少我知道的部分是沒有什麼關係是 因為我們現在想問的是外交部像昨天我在總質詢的時候你也在現場所以你也有聽到是說我請教院長說到底有沒有掌握所謂的台灣議題到底是包含哪些的時候外交部第一時間也沒有辦法告訴我們正確答案是 因為那一天好像一早的新聞出來是 昨天對 一早所以說實在話我也第一次看到這樣的新聞"},{"start":14777.519,"end":14795.954,"text":"所以在過去的談判過程裡面都是美台之間沒有涉及其他我們持續密切掌握但是本席還是提醒一下因為畢竟瞬時萬變但是經濟部要做好充分的應變措施那部長另外一個部分也請教"},{"start":14796.855,"end":14825.189,"text":"之前輝達有講是說要來台北來台灣投資那我昨天我也說了就是說經濟部我們看到媒體報導是講是說有提供至少兩塊地包括林口國際媒體園區以及松南營區這兩塊地給輝達做選擇對那是國產署他已經好像有對外講的確的確那我們經濟部因為我早上又看到您在回答是說我們經濟部預期打算十塊地以上就雙位數是不是"},{"start":14825.769,"end":14841.401,"text":"對 因為我們是這樣想就是對我們來講輝達當然有他的條件跟這個但是對我們來講的話我們給他越多的選擇他是越可能留在台灣是所以我們就往這個方向來進行好 所以我們預計會給他多少選擇"},{"start":14842.728,"end":14865.576,"text":"我們希望還是超過10或10個以上部長我接下來問題就很關鍵囉因為揮打只有一家是對不對再怎麼樣到最後脆平中選就新娘不是我很有可能其他假設你10塊地啊包括現在台北市的這個這兩塊原本的地我們不會對外公佈來我知道你先聽完我再來告訴您說應該經濟部要做的事情是什麼就是說"},{"start":14867.518,"end":14884.916,"text":"輝達只有一家到最後出來之後新娘不是我剩下9塊地沒有可是既然經濟部會把它列為備選名單提供給輝達那就代表說那9塊地不管是條件地理位置以及人口以及技術以及跟人才的"},{"start":14885.376,"end":14908.573,"text":"都不錯沒錯這就是重點包括本席所在的林口國際媒體園區那過去因為有被財政部先列管說所謂有可能要做社宅但是現在也已經解編了而且也被經濟部拿出來當成是給揮打選擇的其中之一那本席想要問以及強調的就是那假設揮打選擇了"},{"start":14910.848,"end":14927.303,"text":"到最後確評重選不是我們這地但我們這地也確實被經濟部列為是很不錯的地那經濟部是不是有責任跟計畫要來協助招商對我們也會把這個地推介給比如說外國的企業那就要更積極因為 回答"},{"start":14929.012,"end":14949.849,"text":"選擇一個那能不能我們用這個地因為你已經盤點在這一次你已經盤點出來假設10塊地包括林口包括松南等等的那這些地的條件都很好那應該再去跟其他的國際大廠國際公司來問Google問Intel問其他各行各業有條件資格跟輝達相匹配的"},{"start":14950.714,"end":14965.401,"text":"我們是不是可以來更積極的做可以這就不是只是地方政府的責任囉是 對不對因為你等於是利用揮打來的這次機會全台灣再盤點一次而且好的地把它盤點出來那我們就可以主動出擊去找其他的"},{"start":14966.381,"end":14982.786,"text":"國際大廠來問說我們有這些地有沒有意願 主動出席我們可以做但是我們還是要跟地方政府再討論一次因為他說不定那你之前釋出林口揮打的時候有跟地方政府討論過嗎有有有地方政府說不定他只喜歡揮打因為新北市政府也很支持這個案子如果他"},{"start":14984.006,"end":15005.853,"text":"揮打之外他也可以接受其他的國際大廠那我們當然來努力啊我想應該不會有地方這麼反對說我指一定指名揮打然後其他Intel Google來我反對吧所以部長這就本席今天因為您今天來做這個業務報告嘛那您過去秘書長我們也很多次的一個共識我想對於您的專業我還是予以"},{"start":15007.472,"end":15032.044,"text":"一定程度的肯定那我也拜託既然我們已經有列出來了那揮打確定之後其他我們也可以用這樣子的土地再去更積極的招商我想這是經濟部跟地方政府可以充分配合的不分藍綠跟黨派因為只要有國際公司來即便落腳在新北市也是台灣好也是中華民國好對經濟部而言是這樣再拜託部長好不好謝謝"},{"start":15038.868,"end":15062.817,"text":"好 接下來我們請謝榮介委員質詢主席 我要請金保董 部長"},{"start":15070.146,"end":15096.014,"text":"社員好部長你好我用和樂圍你覺得有困難應該聽得懂應該聽得懂你故鄉哪裡我在台北你台北市對 台北市所以沒有啦以前我們內湖算是鄉下內湖現在一坪有六百萬你告訴我鄉下沒有啦我出生的時候我出生的時候那時候算鄉下"},{"start":15100.305,"end":15114.67,"text":"這樣就是表示 我要問你這個就是說 卡蘇你是來自水源保護窟啦水源保護窟你了解吧我知道啊我們台南市的水口這麼多 比威威水源保護窟的地方是有夠寬我們的鄉親他想要去一間便宿 要住一間寮都不行 都要接受限制跟藥送了 了解"},{"start":15126.383,"end":15139.753,"text":"那麼在這個水源保護庫裡面竟然關節這麼嚴重來做這種太陽臨盤的發展本身絕對沒有反對太陽臨但我反對的是不正常的太陽臨太陽臨太陽臨太陽臨太陽臨我想大家都一樣的態度"},{"start":15152.981,"end":15177.25,"text":"那麼我請教你這個水庫的太陽能我們收工的單價是不是比較貴價格我可能要請那個美術這你不瞭解所以不怪 說明一下水面型的我們是依照不同的太陽那水面型的是比地面型的小型的地面型的要比較貴一點貴多少"},{"start":15182.589,"end":15197.441,"text":"比較好彈比較好彈 又比較大噹4塊以下我們查一下那個差額因為我們有分好幾個級距差額差不多就4到5啦比其他的太陽能還要4到5啊 照理講它在水面上的發電耗爐比在陸上的發電耗爐比較好一點對 理論上是這樣 溫度比較低一點發電比較多 價格又比較好"},{"start":15212.677,"end":15228.933,"text":"那麼在水管保護庫裡面 鄉親最擔心的是水手的汙染我想大家都關心因為水手的汙染 灌溉用水手的汙染那麼本縮省委民意代表替鄉親提出建議"},{"start":15230.592,"end":15257.57,"text":"有本會的委員說 邱雄已經算明清澈了根本清澈就沒用清潔這個你又繼續在講 所以對本席提供 柏中你的看法如何沒有 我們是釐清啦 如果有誤解我們就盡量來釐清沒有這樣行為民意代表啦 我跟你講 那麼經過入鎮充分算明 入鎮算明你就要聽喔"},{"start":15259.173,"end":15288.036,"text":"你經濟沒發泡那麼多 藥劑跟你說我都合法你就要聽嗎?要責任嗎?當然要責任啊對 要責任藥劑清洗是不是藥劑在洗?不是啊所以水質 它還在發泡 你聽到沒有?它還在發泡讓清潔藥劑去做所以這個水質一定要定期檢查 就是這樣水質定期檢查合理嘛 都檢出"},{"start":15289.605,"end":15310.223,"text":"有寫這個成分的時候那麼民意代表鄉親敬意 關心有合理沒有啦有合理沒有但是沒有檢查出來 到目前為止在嘉南農田水理會網站要說明清楚嘛這個"},{"start":15313.291,"end":15333.134,"text":"用泥煮的蓋冰 像這個到底這是天然的 都會擔心說那是天然的啦因為你如果是用清潔器洗的話 它的容量會不一樣啦到底天然的要合成的 你用殼那個鎖骨 第一 第二"},{"start":15334.417,"end":15362.252,"text":"因為有青蛇夾架出來主撲公他們可能有用到完皮包的鄉民洗個澡啦這個洗個澡就算是去共生啦專門在洗替身啦洗鄉民的當有這個消息出來當然我們會更加關心嘛所以本縣提議要求夾架合時合地準備青蛇要說不"},{"start":15363.652,"end":15387.783,"text":"可以 可以 這個可以 好來要求嚴重 清洗的時候 要滴薄 做得夠嗎因為 你說用水口的水洗啊沒有煮來水啊 煮到要塞進去啊他水要怎麼塞進去 他用水口的水洗洗會乾淨 洗不乾淨 不管可以滴薄嗎 沒錯 有辦法滴薄嗎"},{"start":15389.878,"end":15408.858,"text":"我們就是他要清洗的時候我們可以讓大家知道有興趣的人可以來參加是這樣嗎可以要求他給我們賺那麼多錢可以要求他清洗的時候採出內部的硬幣依照工信給我們台南的鄉親說這水這樣他用水口的水洗"},{"start":15411.36,"end":15438.815,"text":"沒有汙染 有的人說用水口的水洗也有汙染這點分析可以同意 沒有汙染那個技術上看他直播會有但是我們請那個村里的辦公室的同仁一起去你忙著找村里辦公室啦啦你一定很忙的啦 我也同事你一定很關心但是他眼睛緊緊 人最重要的就是你的病啦可以要求夾症民政要派代表的話也可以啦"},{"start":15439.694,"end":15455.676,"text":"嚇死啦業者他是清洗的行為人嘛我們要看技術上可不可行啦第一這不正確性本啦第一這不正確性本啦他如果不可行他可以通知本縣我們可以幫忙"},{"start":15457.852,"end":15461.598,"text":"我也要跟署長看看這沒有整個身份啦我是說啦我們一定會公開透明這個是原則啦讓鄉親知道說這沒問題不是你說沒有就沒有我說有就有啊"},{"start":15470.66,"end":15495.533,"text":"大家在這裡好嘴小噴口露營是啊 公開透明 他們要清洗的時候你如果可以 核實核立第一階段要清洗核過核立第二階段要清洗我們都要保護讓大家透明兼施這樣就是讓台南的鄉親把這個紀錄放開了不然你現在這樣說人家就不相信你了我同意啊 就是公開透明做得到嗎 做得到"},{"start":15509.229,"end":15537.859,"text":"好接下來羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在望美玲望美玲望美玲委員不在牛喜婷牛喜婷牛喜婷委員不在蘇清淺蘇清淺蘇清淺委員不在現在請林楚英委員質詢好主席辛苦了有請龔敏興工部長好部長"},{"start":15544.741,"end":15573.327,"text":"林委員好部長好我來問的這一題我剛剛在外交委員會其實我也問過了因為今天外委會剛好安排的是有關於關稅進度的一個報告那麼我們知道其實川普上台之後他的CBP也就是他的所謂的這個管制局關稅級邊境的保護局可以說是這個power非常大那麼過去當然台灣在漁工的部分也有被美國"},{"start":15574.948,"end":15584.559,"text":"來發所謂的暫時的扣押令但是9月24號這個是製造業的首例那麼如果我們去爬書像是新聞報導會發現他們是被檢舉而且是有少數的媒體在報導之後現在"},{"start":15590.445,"end":15608.971,"text":"有關於捷安特也就是巨大機械他們被視為是在強迫勞動的部分被美國的海關際邊境保護局扣押了台灣製造的自行車跟零組件的配件剛剛我在外委會詢問的時候我知道巨大現在在9月30號他發出了這個"},{"start":15612.252,"end":15641.432,"text":"請求書給我們政府但是他是發給外交部經濟部又加勞動部首先我要第一個問的是現在跟美國做組織溝通的部分是巨大機械自己來處理嗎還是台灣有什麼樣的部會或者是機構可以作為一個協助因為我會問這一題的原因就在於這樣的一個案例會不會影響到接下來我們其他的商業的談判的部分"},{"start":15641.952,"end":15661.101,"text":"尤其是製造業需要高人力科技業 傳產有沒有可能都因為要符合美國現在所謂他們的標準跟他們的人權的勞工制度的規則而變成是從一個個案變通案部長怎麼看"},{"start":15661.921,"end":15686.151,"text":"报告委员就是因为这件事情第一时间我们跟巨大有密切的联系那美方也有跟我们讲但是美方很清楚的讲说这个个案跟现在台美之间对等谈判是没有关系的他有清楚的讲那这个就像您刚才提到可能有单位去检举然后他们可能也有书面的了解以后"},{"start":15686.789,"end":15702.834,"text":"那是暫時性的一些處分那我們了解以後我們就跟美方說那我們怎麼可以來做一些處理那美方的意思是說因為它是一個個案而且是單一的企業跟這個他們美國的邊境"},{"start":15703.334,"end":15732.618,"text":"保护署他们之间的这个法律上可能是不是有一些误解或沟通可能还是要他们跟这个CPP来做一些说明那我们就会帮这个巨大去介绍就是在美国的可能的律师因为曾经有律师只有少数的律师他们也曾经类似的案件然后获得撤销有经验对 是少数的那我们推荐给他然后后来巨大他也连接上了"},{"start":15733.078,"end":15748.144,"text":"那現在他也可能也定了時間那目前的期程跟進度是如何有沒有訊息我們只是知道就是說他在一定的特定的時間裡面他會跟CPP去做一些說明"},{"start":15748.784,"end":15766.387,"text":"因為在這個部分的過程當中有一些專家跟學者特別用過去台灣的漁船在這個所謂漁工的對待上面受到美國發布這個所謂戰扣令的制裁的過程當中有特別提到就是他認為你涉嫌所以我就先扣下來"},{"start":15767.088,"end":15784.26,"text":"扣下來之後你就去打官司或者是證明自己的清白那麼從這個個案當中會讓其他的不論是傳產製造業或者是接下來的科技業會擔憂那麼到底我今天在美國的境外在台灣或其他地方設廠的"},{"start":15785.56,"end":15812.559,"text":"我不是代工而是我自己的做自由品牌的時候那麼會不會有另外一種就是在美國這邊以他的標準但是境外要達到他的標準的時候那麼對於我們的科技業又或者是傳產業會不會造成一些所謂的影響不知道委員因為CPP只要是全世界各國他要出口產品到美國他都要受到他的一個"},{"start":15814.827,"end":15830.423,"text":"他规定他要满足他的一些规定那这些事件是主要是因为台湾的厂商在雇用这个外籍移工的时候是类似被人家检举就是说是不是涉嫌有强迫劳动的"},{"start":15831.064,"end":15846.532,"text":"的可能 可怀疑所以现在巨大就可能要去做一些说明就是说当然美方它也有关系几个重要的问题比如说它的宿舍环境或者是说"},{"start":15847.192,"end":15861.569,"text":"其他的就是说我们在雇佣外籍移工的时候的仲介费到底是谁来支付的问题类似这个那我们会一一如果是属于通案我们会一一去处理那个案的部分我们协助他跟这个CPP来做说明"},{"start":15861.889,"end":15891.207,"text":"好 那么从这个案子因为我知道时间到了那么所以我也提醒经济部在这个部分就是应该有一个个案发生之后其他相关的产业包括传产或科技业恐怕他们也会有所担忧那么是不是可以给一个指引或者是说给一些讯息上面的联系让这些产业界能够有相关的指引可寻对 所以这个部分我们跟劳动部会密切的沟通那劳动部也会因为这样也要定一个指引出来的确是这样的好 谢谢"},{"start":15899.205,"end":15918.406,"text":"習以珍 習整委員不在 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們現在請張家俊 三分鐘謝謝主席 我想請龔部長"},{"start":15924.892,"end":15940.421,"text":"部長本席相信您一上任就要面臨的一大挑戰就是剛剛很多委員都問的就是說揮打要如何就是弱角在台灣那揮打的問題不僅攸關台灣AI產業鏈的核心地位也關係著國際投資對台灣營商環境的信心那這一點部長您認同嗎"},{"start":15951.167,"end":15969.699,"text":"是 輝達它現在在台灣有三個部分一個部分它的算力中心也會在台灣另外一個跟我們所謂的研發中心也留在台灣了那現在就是它的海外總部也希望是在台灣那我們會努力把這個事情拿出來把這三個都留在台灣那請問一下你們努力的方向有什麼具體的作為嗎"},{"start":15975.382,"end":15991.722,"text":"因為輝達現在需要我們的是說萬一這個T-17-18如果沒有彈程的情況之下可不可以有其他的基地提供給它做參考要不要建議他們來我們雲林呢我們雲林不缺水不缺電而且我們有高鐵還有台大"},{"start":15993.404,"end":15995.945,"text":"而且我們現在中科二期過大假設有部長的支持的話我們有一個32.8公頃的土地就在中科雲林旁邊非常方便是台塘的土地你三個都可以來雲林啊因為他需要的是企業總部啦海外企業總部所以他需要的面積大概3公頃到4公頃"},{"start":16019.298,"end":16033.928,"text":"是 但你說還有算力中心還有研發中心嘛他們已經有一些規劃了是…那有關於這個部分我想最新消息是台新金跟新壽願意把地還給台北市不曉得部長有沒有掌握這是否屬實呢這個我就不知道了"},{"start":16037.33,"end":16055.036,"text":"所以不確定還不確定所以呢我們也很希望說我們傳遞給全球的訊息不是中央跟地方誰的責任而是台灣政府有能力可以整合我們整合內部然後提供穩定的這個投資條件那我想這個"},{"start":16056.917,"end":16085.298,"text":"是一個國際資金跟人才投資信任的象徵喔所以呢也希望說台灣作為一個半導體的強國那甚至喔在亞太在全球的重要性那所以政府喔尤其是您是經濟部部長那您有擔任過秘書長您最知道說怎麼樣整合怎麼樣調停頂賴喔所以可能也要請部長積極介入喔協助台北市政府喔或者是其他揮打有興趣的土地喔"},{"start":16086.018,"end":16112.71,"text":"儘快的趕快讓它可以落腳這一點部長好的因為17 18那是合約關係契約關係但是如果其他的土地包括包括台北市政府裡面松南的部分有市政府的土地也有國產那我們可以盡量來最後我再問您一個問題就上週五我們三讀通過了有關於普發現金一萬元不曉得部長現在預計什麼時候可以發放部長知道嗎"},{"start":16113.894,"end":16140.227,"text":"那個是財政部不過我們有承諾我們有承諾一個月之內嘛這個總統公布以後一個月之內你們跨部會都不曉得互相沒有知會說什麼時候會發放不曉得嗎主要還是在財政部主政但是一個月之內那估計可以貢獻多少台灣多少GDP嗎上次國發會有一些估計嘛好像會對經濟成長率"},{"start":16144.002,"end":16162.469,"text":"增加0.4%主計總數是評估說會有0.65%那我們當然希望說這個對於我們蒲發現金之後呢這股消費力可以變成投資力產業力好不好一起加油謝謝接下來我們請邱志偉委員"},{"start":16174.264,"end":16184.719,"text":"三分钟谢谢主席有请这个经济部总部长台电董事长总经理"},{"start":16188.246,"end":16210.262,"text":"这个第一个问题请教台美关税谈判总统说法是20%的占行税率会调降那另外就是说没有不叠加是不叠加另外争取232的这个条款最惠国待遇这是三个可能的方向那当然是好事是他没有提到是就是说他会用什么形式来签订是白纸黑字还是口头承诺还是开一个记者会"},{"start":16210.982,"end":16238.583,"text":"因为日本跟韩国就是缺乏这个白纸黑字后来就衍生后面的一些纷争我们会不会有白纸黑字这是第一个问题第二个问题是说没有提到扩大对美的投资跟采购这部分部长您掌握的状况怎么样报告委员公布的形势可能我们双方面也还要做一些讨论但是我知道的是会有一个文本"},{"start":16239.437,"end":16254.27,"text":"就是白紙黑字对对对会签有两方的这个协商代表共同投印同意这样的白紙黑字对有白紙黑字好另外就是说没有提到的是这个扩大对美的投资跟采购这部分您了解状况是怎么样"},{"start":16255.27,"end":16281.798,"text":"因为每日韩一个5500一个3500投资的部分我们跟日韩是不太一样对我们投资的话是厂商会过去投资条件有没有改变就是之前的跟他们讨论我们投资的方案当然不是日韩模式我们是有台湾模式对我们很清楚这个有没有改变对我们很清楚的是厂商要去美国投资的话一定要有订单然后他也可以赚钱所以要投资项目什么是比较清楚的"},{"start":16282.418,"end":16301.968,"text":"所以不會像日韓有一個額度出來嗎對 日韓它比較跟我們不一樣它就是一筆錢然後要放在那邊但至於要投資什麼所以我們確定的不是日韓模式我們不一樣可能是這個產業鏈過去或者是一個複製什麼我們產業園區的這種概念我們是說確定要投資什麼項目"},{"start":16303.329,"end":16329.399,"text":"才要去投資才有這個預算才有這個錢確定有別於日韓模式對他們不一樣他們是先一筐一筆錢然後再決定投資什麼第二個問題這個反對核能反核是我基本理念重返核能發電是因為產業的需求做一個政治工作者我必須要堅持我的理念之外也要考慮到產業發展的需求"},{"start":16331.392,"end":16353.704,"text":"就是反核跟反核反對的反跟返回的反返回核電就是重新用核能作為發電的一個途徑但不可能就是由我當然是反對這個重啟這個舊的核電廠這40年以上當然風險很高但是新的核能技術總統也說這個可以去考慮包括SMR"},{"start":16355.038,"end":16374.895,"text":"SMR 很多國家都用SMR另外這個未來你這個核分裂改成用核融合這個當然需要很長的時間目前經濟部或者台電有沒有開始在進行所謂SMR的相關的這個規劃跟研究甚至更遠端更遠期的這個所謂核融合的技術那個董事長"},{"start":16376.44,"end":16398.036,"text":"报告委员就是说其实我们现在大概都用SMR在讲但是事实上它很多发电形式都会改变设计的反应炉的设计方法都不同那其实台电是我们的核能部门是一直都在follow这个世界的发展的趋势那我们也会来做SMR作为未来核能发电的一个形式"},{"start":16398.88,"end":16428.11,"text":"我这样说因为台电基本上是这一些设备的应用者那现在谈的都是这些设备的开发者就我们现在讲说如果SMR你现在讲New Scale这些都是这些设备的开发者那其实台湾在合工这一块就是说如果我们要做要做这一个投入他可能要做更多的一些准备那不过台电公司作为应用技术应用者其实我们在follow这些应用的发展方向是"},{"start":16428.973,"end":16453.96,"text":"另外最後一個問題想提醒一下這個部長就是產業發展不均衡股市上三萬點基本上是AI跟半導體全程撐起來但是傳統產業比它的股價是比起過去20年最低的時候所以發生兩極化AI 半導體相關產業就是一路上漲但是傳統的製造業金屬 鉤金 鋼鐵 石化石等等苦不堪言我們必須針對傳統製造業你要轉型有個振興計畫"},{"start":16458.291,"end":16475.425,"text":"否則一個產業有兩個世界一個世界有兩種產業完全不同的面貌你要看到比較需要幫忙的那一面是 我們一定 你要具體的提出振興方案有 所以我們為什麼要下鄉"},{"start":16477.376,"end":16488.984,"text":"貼近這些產業要知道它們可能受到要有一個完整的戰略的方案怎麼樣在兩三年或者短中長期計畫短期一年 中期三年 長期五年怎麼樣針對個別產業標實化後建鋼鐵怎麼樣讓他們升級怎麼樣提升他們AI"},{"start":16496.208,"end":16518.317,"text":"種種讓他們經濟能夠維持我們短期間就是保住訂單跟金流不要斷那人才跟技術的升級轉型這個就是我們加碼的地方那就是一個是短期間至少要這樣但是你長期間你如果不轉型的話不升級的話可能還是會遭受到很大的挑戰所以還是有這樣的步驟在進行中"},{"start":16519.317,"end":16542.722,"text":"還有很多的問題 因為實際上的關係另外關於新達海基的轉型 部裡面要去關心因為今天中岡沒有來 溫馨也在新達海基這邊過去在海基 在我的選區虧損六十億那你現在到底轉型 轉型企劃哪裡 方向到底具體作為是哪裡並沒有提出來的 都很抽象你不能荒廢 閒置在那邊 你那個租金一個月一百萬"},{"start":16544.56,"end":16558.454,"text":"所以这部分尽快提出转移或者你要直接退场好那委员我们过一段时间就把这个书面资料提供给您要多久要多久这我已经讲了快半年了下个月下个月尽快了因为不能再拖了好谢谢"},{"start":16566.793,"end":16591.5,"text":"登记发言委员除不在场者外其余均已发言完毕 询答结束委员牛喜婷还有刘建国所提书面咨询内录记录刊登公报书面咨询和未及答复不问请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会本日所列议程处理完均谢谢大家 现在散会"}]}},{"id":"16970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16970","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6858a46bec1ad1976d3bd9399736f1e161f0aa126c40303dc270fb301593b5c05f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n五、委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n【僅詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-22T08:32:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T14:26:00+08:00","duration":21186,"影片長度":"05:53:06","委員發言時間":"08:32:54 - 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法務部衛福部以及經濟部完整看完之後我必須很務實的說勞動部的報告最爛"},{"start":2062.114,"end":2075.924,"text":"為什麼爛到現在為止我們已經討論了幾年了還在跟我們講說要質疑藍綠白委員黨團從第九屆第十屆開始講說要外送專法"},{"start":2077.129,"end":2101.778,"text":"結果勞動部到現在拿出來的東西是講說明年1月會有公開的指引請大家再等待那不就是過去因為有指引但是一直沒有辦法完整的保障不管是外送員 不管是消費者不管是餐廳的權益也因此我們才會考慮提升為專法嗎我想請教 在場執政黨的委員能夠接受這樣子搪塞的態度消極的態度嗎"},{"start":2103.274,"end":2114.45,"text":"我們在討論專法你還在講質疑我們都已經5G上網了你還在講撥接你那邊還來得及啊記得all in台積電再者"},{"start":2116.072,"end":2140.732,"text":"外送員因為已經超過15萬人有別其他行業也因此我們想的是它跟過去傳統的勞基法僱傭關係也有可能或多或少不同這是世界各國趨勢我們也理解但它絕對不是一個派遣工作也因此怎麼樣在派遣跟僱傭中間我們找到一個新的平衡點這就是我們今天討論的目標而這不是今天還提出來的"},{"start":2142.096,"end":2156.265,"text":"第十屆的時候我就很務實的提出相關的專法當時國民黨團 時代力量民眾黨團 民進黨團也都有相對應的版本現在更友商的黨團也提出版本但我們要問行政院的版本在哪裡"},{"start":2158.915,"end":2184.251,"text":"內容我就不贅述了因為我們等一下都還有很多的質詢的時間來討論但我真的只想講如果只想要以拖待變人民都會看在眼裡我肯定交通部 我肯定法務部我肯定衛福部至少你有針對個別條文裡面提出你們的意見 專業以及認為可行或不可行"},{"start":2185.131,"end":2193.288,"text":"但從頭到尾應該是主管機關的勞動部沒有針對任何一個條文有任何的意見"},{"start":2196.653,"end":2221.706,"text":"我的時間兩分鐘到了我一定會回來再跟大家繼續討論我們也真的感謝召委排案我們希望在這個會期裡面如果行政院這種消極的態度的話行政院不走我們立法院先走我們呼籲民進黨民眾黨團一起共同為我們消費者外送員以及餐廳來努力我們不是要"},{"start":2222.566,"end":2249.218,"text":"打壓外送平台而是過去一強三弱的狀況我們希望能夠變成是四足鼎立外送平台消費者餐廳以及外送員四個方面都能夠均衡的獲得權益最後請中華民國的官員們記得不要讓外界覺得中華民國是一個"},{"start":2251.737,"end":2258.062,"text":"勞權點不到 過勞點得到的地方謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員說明請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明"},{"start":2268.161,"end":2290.678,"text":"謝謝昭偉各位委員和媒體先進以及外送員夥伴們我想先還是要感謝廖偉強昭偉能夠今天願意排審這個法案這個法案在我們的創黨主席柯文哲在競選總統的時候就是非常重要的優先法案而且我們在每一個會期都提出了這個法案民眾黨事實上在上一個"},{"start":2291.539,"end":2321.139,"text":"上一屆的時候就有賴香林委員提出了外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案那這一屆我們在第一個會期也提出了這樣一個法案但是這麼重要法案我們卻是也很高興在這第四會期有機會送審到委員會來審查所以再次感謝這個廖兆偉那擔任立委以來最常受到外送員夥伴他們的懲情 這重點就是平台不斷的減薪"},{"start":2322.56,"end":2348.9,"text":"導致非常非特定的熱門商圈的外送員他們的事實上換算下來的這個薪資低於基本的時薪如果再加上油資啦機車的一些保養跟折舊常常都是做白工那另外也有很多外送夥伴他跟我們反應遇到任何問題只要向平台申訴的話永遠只得到罐頭訊息就是制式的回應那"},{"start":2350.606,"end":2368.708,"text":"申訴制度完全無效那明明沒有違反規定可是可能遭到惡意檢舉那這個外送平台他又不去查證所以直接被停權了那讓外送員的生計受到影響那也能自己承受完全沒有其他的這個救濟方式"},{"start":2369.409,"end":2385.219,"text":"那本黨團召開多次的公聽會有聽取各方的意見也私下請益許多外送員他們在面臨實際的時候所遭遇的困境那綜合各方意見之後本黨團提出的這個法案的重點有幾個包含這個接單費"},{"start":2387.623,"end":2414.14,"text":"計算方式要由外送平台同業工會以及相關的工會來共同擬定其中基本費不得低於基本的工資三分之一那業界平台也必須有申訴制度讓外送人能夠針對停權 違規報酬等有申訴管道那這個大家關心的勞僱關係我們主張的是僱傭跟廢僱用雙軌制在這個有工時彈性的同時也能夠有勞動權跟相關保險的保障"},{"start":2414.58,"end":2423.734,"text":"好 那我們希望未來在逐條審查的時候大家能夠理性討論創造一個三贏 算送員 外送平台還有消費者的權益好 謝謝 謝謝教委 謝謝大家謝謝陳教資委員說明請羅廷偉委員說明"},{"start":2438.203,"end":2467.342,"text":"好謝謝主席今天排審我想我們真的等了很久也等了將近一年多那我們在去年呢就已經提案但是外送員卻等了數年我要說的是外送服務已經融入了現代的生活我想我自己跟在座的許多我們現場的大家應該都有是外送平台的重度使用者"},{"start":2468.343,"end":2490.893,"text":"消費者透過這樣的數位平台下單在短時間獲得餐飲的服務便捷的服務作為這類平台的經濟核心的勞動者外送員我們可以看到他們對於整個勞權對於整個長期的規範不足造成他的報酬不穩定工作風險過高勞動保障明顯不足"},{"start":2495.675,"end":2504.387,"text":"目前勞動部雖定有所謂的相關指引雖然顧及了外送過程中的職業安全但對外送員"},{"start":2506.231,"end":2526.505,"text":"勞動的權益保障是非常有限的隨著外送產業擴張外送人員已經超過了14萬人但是我們看到光光指引夠嗎現在要我們再等到明年1月你相信那個指引會對於整個外送員的權益有所保障嗎對不起我不相信"},{"start":2527.486,"end":2547.431,"text":"所以我們還是要再一次的譴責勞動部等了這麼多年勞動部完全沒有醒過來上一次何佩珊部長說她個人的立場是支持但是到現在我們也沒看到勞動部有任何的動作甚至要我們等待的是指引"},{"start":2548.231,"end":2569.223,"text":"院版不出來勞動部沒有態度到現在三個黨團都提出了各自的版本我自己在去年也提出了自己的提案很可惜我們沒有看到院版而現在我們要說的是高風險低保障我們不斷的接到外送員一直不斷的澄清相關的澄清平台"},{"start":2570.483,"end":2597.252,"text":"再說亂砍報仇任意停權甚至沒有理由就終止合約也不給外送員有任何申訴救濟的管道讓外送員求助無門你可以想像在21世紀在台灣在現在我們還可以遇到這樣子的一個勞動者竟然完全沒有地方可以申訴我自己就接到啊他收到一單要送到火車站突然簡訊告訴他"},{"start":2599.144,"end":2615.783,"text":"不用送來了我趕不上火車這杯請你喝他完全不知道該怎麼辦跟平台回報沒有人要結單最後呢過了三天他被停權了他真的莫名其妙"},{"start":2617.011,"end":2639.579,"text":"他照著指示送到火車站照著指示沒人要接單最後他被停權我幫他開了一個記者會最後才幫他恢復他完全沒得申訴啊所以不要再拿說什麼怕他們漲價或者是怎麼樣的理由來恐嚇立法委員不要去立法我們要創造的是市民"},{"start":2640.439,"end":2664.179,"text":"平台不能只有你贏消費者要贏我們的店家要贏外送員要贏所以在這一次我們透過法律明定的報酬申訴救濟管道確保外送員不要因為演算法被剝奪這才是制定我們現在的專法最重要的根本目的保障外送員的尊嚴保障他們的權益不要再被演算法來決定他的人生謝謝"},{"start":2667.318,"end":2670.214,"text":"謝謝羅廷威委員說明請王育銘委員說明"},{"start":2678.726,"end":2704.413,"text":"謝謝主席我要特別感謝我們廖偉祥召委這個很快的排定這一次有關於外送人員從業人員的權益保障法那這部法呢事實上提案的委員都幾乎是去年就已經提案了那現在終於可以正式上路但是真的很遺憾我們看到到目前為止行政院勞動部是沒有任何的版本"},{"start":2705.353,"end":2728.744,"text":"都是這個國民黨委員的版本跟民眾黨黨團的版本那這個代表這個國民黨是非常重視這一些相關人員的權益因為當我們在享受這一些你可以點外賣你不用風吹雨淋的時候這一些便利的時候那你要想的這些外送人員的辛苦他的權益到底有沒有得到基本的保障"},{"start":2729.204,"end":2738.716,"text":"而現在我們看到現在存在三大問題第一個就是他們的薪資被任意調降成為待宰羔羊他完全是權力不對等喔"},{"start":2739.181,"end":2763.138,"text":"那第二個是他的保險保障不足用生命在拼搏就是我們相關的沒有專法的情況底下他的這些保險其實都沒有明確化第三個是他沒有在勞基法的保障之內所以他的權益是不對等的很容易被架空為了解決這些的問題呢所以我們提出來的這個專法第一個"},{"start":2763.758,"end":2787.806,"text":"一定是保障基本收入就是不能任人宰割接單費的標準跟計算方式要由平台公會跟相關公會共同擬定再也不能由平台說了算現在平台呈現的就是有權無責這樣的一個情況應該要修正第二個是強制納保提供完整的職業安全的保障"},{"start":2788.246,"end":2802.885,"text":"那這個也是應該要提供的第三個契約中止應該要有規範必須在30天以前預告不會像剛剛羅廷惠委員所說的就是短短幾個小時幾天之內他的工作權就不見了"},{"start":2803.726,"end":2818.783,"text":"而且也沒有申訴機制我們要避免任意停權傷害他們工作權的情況發生最後發生實災事故的時候平台應該要在8小時之內通報然後也另外一方面要求平台要保留消費電池紀錄"},{"start":2820.345,"end":2839.918,"text":"一年以上維持消費者的權益我們希望透過今天委員會的排案審查我們積極加速通過這樣的一個保障專法讓我們廣大的15萬的外送員更有保障以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員說明請王宏威委員說明"},{"start":2848.015,"end":2872.239,"text":"好 谢谢主席首先感谢我们的召委廖伟祥委员很快速的能够排定这个其实跟外送员其实已经等了非常久的一个保障的法案那事实上Full Panda在民国101年就进入了台湾市场那另外一家比较大的Uber Eats也是在105年进入台湾市场"},{"start":2872.839,"end":2891.982,"text":"所以事實上呢對我們外送員的保障來說我們的法律的缺乏已經長達13年之久已經長達13年之久所以不要再扭步話了那我希望呢也在我們這個會期能夠盡速加速的能夠通過相關的法律"},{"start":2892.823,"end":2914.075,"text":"另外也要跟大家報告事實上有關於外送平台的管理還有外送平台從業人員的保障我剛才講已經長達13年那麼在地方縣市政府在目前包含台北市跟台南市都有相關的自治條例"},{"start":2914.875,"end":2936.318,"text":"那麼就是因為我們中央沒有法啊一直在踢皮球在這樣的狀況之下那麼包含比如說像台南市他們也有這個相關的自治條例當他要處分處罰業者的時候比如說他沒有該做強制保險他沒有做結果最後呢市政府敗訴"},{"start":2937.999,"end":2965.649,"text":"為什麼敗訴呢因為說抵觸中央法令中央沒有相關的法令與保障那所以也就是即便是地方政府有意而且也聽聽制製條例來保障我們外送平台相關從業人員的他們的相關的權益可是因為中央立法的怠惰所以沒有辦法來做保障所以我在這邊呢也跟大家來報告"},{"start":2967.71,"end":2985.852,"text":"我個人在第二會期本屆第二會期就是去年的時候就提出了這個草案那麼現在來看我們現在非常多的這個在野黨的委員還有黨團都有提出法案那麼我也發現在昨天民進黨團"},{"start":2987.653,"end":3008.384,"text":"終於有一個比較好的回應也願意來做立法所以我們會希望我們的勞動部還有我們行政院相關的主管機關能夠加速腳步我想從業人員等了13年那麼我覺得現在應該是我們對他有一個具體回應的時候以上 謝謝謝謝王宏威委員說明"},{"start":3013.513,"end":3014.937,"text":"那接下來請勞動部紅部長說明時間8分鐘"},{"start":3026.829,"end":3044.672,"text":"主席各位委員先進然後包括現場的媒體朋友那很謝謝這個貴委員會的邀請那由本人來向各位進行這個外送平台管理及從業人員管理權益保障法的草案相關報告那希望大家不吝指教那"},{"start":3046.004,"end":3056.578,"text":"近年台灣的外送平台的新興經濟體模式迅速的興起那陸續的發展改變大家的消費的型態那其實這也成為一個非常非常重要的課題"},{"start":3057.765,"end":3085.513,"text":"那勞務部其實一直是很關心外送員的保障的權益 那我們當然現在其實透過了相關行政的指引的方式 那要求僱主那要辦理安全衛生的教育訓練 落實安全衛生防護措施 還有訂定危害防治計劃來協助落實交通事故的預防和處理 還有熱危害預防等等管理作為 並且提高指引的效力 那"},{"start":3088.165,"end":3114.222,"text":"這個職業安全衛生法的修正草案已在今年的8月28由行政院送到立法院來審議那其中增訂了50條之一也就是要求外送平台業者應該落實外送員的作業危害預防及身心健康保護措施那本部其實也透過定期的勞檢機構對外送平台實施稽查那跟交通部跨部會的合作實施聯合的稽查要求業者落實強化外送員的作業安全"},{"start":3115.56,"end":3137.025,"text":"那為了增進外送員的權益保障減輕外送員的負擔所以外送作業安全衛生指引也要求外送平台要為外送員投保團體傷害保險那以及投保第三責任第三人責任保險那目前兩家的主要業者那也已經為所屬外送員提供第三人責任保險"},{"start":3138.206,"end":3153.844,"text":"那也為了完善爭議協處的措施本部也運用行政協調的機制來請各地方主管機關因受理外送員的和外送平台爭議案件並積極主動的協調等協處措施促使個案有效的"},{"start":3154.574,"end":3178.497,"text":"解決那我們了解外送員其實長期他所關注的幾個權益事項包括報酬的計算不夠透明是外送員無法驗算每個單他報酬的定價是否合理還有停權是有不夠透明隨時可能會影響外送員線上接單的權益還有平台具有強勢的訂閱能力常常未經外送員的同一片面的變更報酬計算的重要的"},{"start":3179.097,"end":3203.888,"text":"契約的內容此外外送員的商業保險和社會保險權益也受到外送員有關工會的詬病那因此那為了強化外送員的權益那目前政府的團隊已經透過交包括交通部經濟部衛福部數位部以及本部跨部會合作接下來會由這個交通部來統籌整合型的這個經營管理的指引"},{"start":3204.808,"end":3225.981,"text":"那但是對於今天大院其實大家都草原委員都非常非常關注的專法的議題我想我在這邊可以很清楚的表達其實在這幾個月那我們對於剛剛在講到包括報酬的問題包括停權的問題包括契約的問題那甚至也包括相關保險的問題其實我們這幾個月其實"},{"start":3228.922,"end":3256.449,"text":"在舞蹈部裡面以後我們也做了幾輪的檢討那在檢討裡面我們也同意我們也認為其實應該朝法制化的方向來處理這個所謂的法制化當然意思就是定專法所以我們其實在這幾個月裡面也很積極的跟相關的工會外送的社群來去討論如果要做法制化的話上述剛剛相關的幾個權益的事項該怎麼落到條文裡面會比較好"},{"start":3257.489,"end":3277.965,"text":"那當然這個過程裡面我們也跟一些長期關注的委員們不斷的在做討論所以我們最近也看到近期也看到越來越多的版本其實裡面都把一些重要的事項其實給放進去包括執政黨團的版本所以接下來我們很樂意在委員會排審的狀況下面"},{"start":3279.867,"end":3293.703,"text":"用比過去因為過去的確勞動部對於專法是比較持保留的可是我們願意跨出一步那也就是對於定立專法對於法治化的工作我們願意正向的開放的來和大家來做"},{"start":3294.604,"end":3320.332,"text":"討論跟審議我們也會把在這段時間裡面我們自己針對這幾個外送員也不只外送員也包括合作的商家也包括消費者其實很關注的一些權益的事項大家來討論我想這部分我想可以很清楚的表達態度所以剛剛在提案說明的時候有幾位委員說我們要1月的時候才提出指引其實不是1月的時候才提出指引"},{"start":3321.312,"end":3345.037,"text":"其實這在昨天的院會的詢問可能大家對於其實意思並不是這樣但的確在我們的這個行政部門的版本上面我們其實現在是進入到研議的最後的階段但因為這個議題涉及到跨部會就是包括交通部包括經濟部包括衛福部涉及到跨部會所以後續還有一些這個"},{"start":3347.558,"end":3367.547,"text":"法制作業的程序我們現在在最後階段還有一些法制作業的程序那需要完成所以我們當然如果大院希望我們提出行政部門的版本的話我想我們也是願意提出可是的確因為法制作業的程序還需要一點點的時間這樣子"},{"start":3368.968,"end":3393.128,"text":"所以我在這邊表達其實我們並沒有不願意來做專法或者是只做指引指引是現在我們跟包括跟交通部跟其他部會這是會做的那目前也在進行中那但是就專法的部分其實我們經過幾個月的研議那其實也進入到最後的階段那我們也很樂意在剛剛在講到尤其幾個部分的面向包括"},{"start":3395.315,"end":3423.481,"text":"報酬的保障包括停權的申訴包括契約規範變更條件包括保險的權益等等事情來針對法制化針對專法的部分來和委員會來做這個更審議那我自己也相信在外送員的議題上面其實是一個很好的可以朝野合作的機會那能夠透過這樣的朝野合作能夠對於外送員的權益可以再更進一步那我自己覺得這是一個好的方向跟正確的方向謝謝"},{"start":3426.174,"end":3451.183,"text":"謝謝洪部長因為昨天在院會的時候可能有人誤會啊你因為你講的說指引到明年1月所以以為勞動部的態度是這樣那很高興聽到剛剛洪部長很明確的表明說支持專法的修訂但是這個行政程序要加速因為已經等了13年所以很多的這個相關的團體相關團體也覺得說不能夠用這個理由他們也擔心說現在"},{"start":3453.804,"end":3474.913,"text":"這個院方願意提出版本是在拖延環兵之際所以謝謝洪部長說不是那就是儘速提出行政院的版本好那接下來因為速發部次長葉次長應該等一下有別的事情就你現在有時間上來說明嗎還是你要這個書面說明就好"},{"start":3477.11,"end":3498.425,"text":"好好因為次長等一下還有事情要先離開喔那我們請交通部次長陳次長說明主席各位委員各位女士先生今天要列席貴委員會就洪孟凱"},{"start":3500.081,"end":3520.229,"text":"洪委員孟凱等21人台灣民眾黨黨團羅委員廷偉等20人王委員玉敏等16人王委員洪威等20人楊瓊雲委員等19人所提的外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案提出本部的一個處理意見來供委員參考進行指教"},{"start":3520.789,"end":3538.578,"text":"首先就各委員所提供的版本中涉及交通部的部分有外送員的教育訓練然後配合勞動部對外送員交通安全的設備或工具訂定外送安全衛生服務的標準及外送員提供外送服務時"},{"start":3539.278,"end":3555.738,"text":"如果發生了相關的一個交通事故致人死傷或重傷或死亡因於三個內完成48小時的道路交通安全獎習等三項的一個規定那針對於外送員的一個訓練或是要配合勞動部訂定相關的一個標準"},{"start":3556.799,"end":3576.342,"text":"本部尊重委員會審查的意見有關參加道路交通安全講習的部分因為本部相關的一個道路交通安全講習辦法裡面已經有訂定對於各種不同的違規行為應該要施予道路交通安全講習為了避免法規進合的標準不一"},{"start":3576.923,"end":3592.79,"text":"所以我們建請如果在審查的時候希望能夠配合法規然後就實務的相關的一個規定對於相關的文字來做相關的一個修正最後如果這個草案獲得院裡頭審議通過以後設有關交通"},{"start":3595.911,"end":3616.853,"text":"部的部分我們一定全力來配合來降低外送員違規的一個行為然後減少交通安全事故的發生來維護道路交通安全那就目前有關外送員的一個道路交通安全的管理跟大家有比較關切的外送員的運駕的一個修正的我來這裡跟大家做一個說明"},{"start":3617.353,"end":3632.181,"text":"那有關交通安全的管理的方面呢本部公路局訂定有關訂有機車外送交通安全指引那在這指引裡面呢針對外送員發生超速闖紅燈等重大違規會依情節要求業者呢"},{"start":3633.022,"end":3645.695,"text":"應對其有相關的一個輔導的機制或者是對於相關的行為應該要報送普通重型機車的駕訓班參加機車駕駛的教育"},{"start":3649.159,"end":3661.784,"text":"那另外呢也會對業者每月辦理所謂的安全的查核那也會每季呢與警察機關辦理全國性的同步機車的一個路檢那查有違規當然就自單舉發那車輛有違規不符規定那當然也就會要責令改正那至於駕照的吊銷啦牌照的註銷啦及無照駕駛的部分呢"},{"start":3671.888,"end":3697.961,"text":"則會通知業者來查明來改善甚至來停派最後會要求業者對於風險控管及提出精進的一個做法然後會促進各業者對所屬的外送員就事故的件數及事故率增加的這樣的一個外送員應分析其原因然後提出具體的一個管理的精進作為第二個部分是大家比較關切有關運費的部分"},{"start":3700.962,"end":3715.607,"text":"運價的部分運價的修正就修正這個汽車運輸業管理規則或者運價準則的部分那本部呢是非常重視這樣的一個修正所以跟對相關的利害關係人譬如說消費者外送平台外送員工會等"},{"start":3716.127,"end":3739.412,"text":"多所討論目前正在收集各單位的意見我們預計在今年的11月預告原價的修正的一個草案進速來完成相關的一個法令的修正後續我們會接著我們會做相關的預告工作之後我們還是會持續邀請外送平台的業者及外送員"},{"start":3740.072,"end":3750.421,"text":"及相關公費召開法令實施的前置會議來研商運價的成本的項目然後各項成本的計算所需要的營運的資料還有相關的這個運價的一個如何區分等等的這些議題我們後續就會"},{"start":3757.066,"end":3780.479,"text":"再来精进的跟你相关的外送相关的利害关系人来讨论那结于呢本部将持续的督导外送平台呢业者重视其所属外送员的一个交通安全以有效降低外送员违规驾驶的行为及减少交通事故以维护道路交通安全以上谢谢谢谢次长"},{"start":3783.737,"end":3788.142,"text":"你需要休息嗎?確定不用喔?確定,要不要五分鐘?那沒關係,繼續好了"},{"start":3797.951,"end":3819.547,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":3820.347,"end":3828.975,"text":"第四 暫定10點半 休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言謝謝昭緯 您今天已經獲得很多感謝不過我還是要再次代表民眾黨黨團向廖偉強 昭緯致謝 排審這個法案好 那有請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":3849.442,"end":3871.474,"text":"部長早部長我今天第一次聽您說這個外送人權益的保障你要朝法治化的方向走然後我繼續聽我有聽到你說事實上法治化的已經啟動了程序那你說還需要一點點時間這個都是剛剛你說的請問這一點點時間大約是多久多快"},{"start":3872.519,"end":3886.469,"text":"我跟委員報告也謝謝委員讓我這個時間可以說明其實大概在幾個月前那我跟我們的同仁其實就是在討論就是其實外送員的保障當然有指引是重要的可是"},{"start":3888.77,"end":3915.728,"text":"我們是不是能夠朝向專法來往前我沒辦法扣除我的時間因為我時間有限就是說你大概給我一個可能的時間你們目標時間我們目前其實進入到最後階段那可能最後因為還要包括預告還要有一些法制的作業的程序我們可能需要兩到三個月但是因為我們立法院已經要排審了那部長請問您知道7月Uber Eats片面條件外送你的報酬平均每一單減少19塊錢這件事你知道嗎當然知道"},{"start":3919.29,"end":3942.235,"text":"那部長這個外送員被減薪每單收入減少的時候他會怎麼樣他會發生什麼事情你知道嗎我知道你也知道他會多接單嘛然後每天他的跌單的權益就受到影響然後為了在有限時間接更多的單他就必須趕快然後就會有道路安全的問題安全危險也提高了這個他本身工作的風險這個都是勞動部在媒體上說的"},{"start":3945.496,"end":3959.664,"text":"那保重部還說UberEats這種做法是不恰當的請問部長對於這種不恰當的做法你們做了什麼我們在當時當然很積極的來協調但也是因為像這樣的事件所以我們也認為"},{"start":3961.462,"end":3975.35,"text":"恐怕就是應該要 剛剛您說是發函嘛就要求一些規則 不只發函也包括約談我們也做了一些行政協調但是當然最後平台還是採取這個做法對 部長因為沒效嘛 發函沒效所以我們的確也是認為在這個前提下那應該是要更進一步的發函"},{"start":3980.152,"end":3998.504,"text":"謝謝部長 因為什麼沒有效嗎誰怕你嘛因為你這個不是你沒有法律效力嘛所以部長那你既然剛剛講了我知道說你可以接受專法的必要性只有法律白紙黑字這個保障才是完整的部長 烏伯利德會反駁他不是減薪是因為他們設計了一套非常複雜的"},{"start":3999.685,"end":4006.267,"text":"薪資計算方式某些項目是加一點某些項目是少一點那但是平均下來就算整體報酬是減少他們會說我們這個不叫減薪我們這個叫調整方案那當然這是話術了部長請你看一下左邊這張圖是某家外送平台的薪資計算方式有各種項目"},{"start":4017.17,"end":4027.214,"text":"那每個項目又有必須達成的條件那不同條件又有不同的加成美其名師獎勵其實是在懲罰這些辛苦的外送員就好像長榮航空他設計了一套非常複雜的獎勵制度那可是讓空服員不敢休息不敢請假所以資方們都很聰明這些資方又不良他用正面表示來表達好像他要這個獎勵但事實上如果你沒這麼做是有很多的隱形的處罰"},{"start":4044.941,"end":4065.716,"text":"那那個像空服員他們就是排二整就是排所謂的報復式排班那那個外送員就是什麼就是接單率變低所以跑單又沒有加成所以部長你都瞭解這個狀況嗎瞭解好那你看右邊這張圖這是一位外送員在網路上分享他一天的報酬一天上線的時間是14小時又12分鐘獲得報酬是2140元"},{"start":4067.717,"end":4093.275,"text":"平均時薪大概是152元已經低於基本時薪了那當然有人說他沒有14小時都在跑但是這種說法就像客運司機手上沒有在方向盤就說他沒有在工作一樣可笑請問外送員不需要等餐嗎請問送達目的地不需要等人來拿嗎那沒有油了要不要去加油所以基本上這個都是花時間的所以部長認為這個外送員的接單的基本費需不需要保障"},{"start":4094.966,"end":4109.991,"text":"報酬上面當然要有基本的保障所以必須讓他們的平均薪資能夠符合基本的時薪吧您同意嗎同意 部長同意部長除了薪資保障之外其他的工作權也很重要有很多的外出委員反映他們的莫名其妙被平台停權剛剛幾個委員也報告了"},{"start":4111.932,"end":4131.349,"text":"明明沒有違規卻被惡意檢舉那平常不查證就直接把他停權申訴也沒用那都得到那種就是罐頭訊息嘛就制式的回應這對他們工作完全沒有保障有一些那個曾經有這個外送員他被用什麼理由停權你知道嗎與消費者有過多的眼神交流啊天啊那這段時間這個就是說"},{"start":4133.07,"end":4150.09,"text":"反正業者說有管道申訴但是這段期間外送員的生計怎麼辦呢他們減少收入也不會有補償部長我要跟你講你的部門勞研所有一個研究報告指出我不知道你看了沒有將近六成的外送員都認為申訴制度是無效的"},{"start":4150.63,"end":4164.884,"text":"勞研所其中九成認為這只是提供制式答案就是我說的那個罐頭訊息並沒有針對他的問題去解決請問部長你認為需要建立一個真正能夠解決問題的申訴平台來保障外送員嗎你同意嗎"},{"start":4165.804,"end":4185.865,"text":"需要而且不只是停權甚至其實這裡面有很多中止契約這有很多的中止契約的問題其實也都應該要有效的申訴制度那剛剛兩個基本問題就是接單的接單費基本費的保障還有有效的申訴這個制度是當中的重點那另外這個勞僱關係的認定跟投保保險也很重要這比較複雜我想逐條討論我們再來說"},{"start":4188.668,"end":4216.793,"text":"那這個請部長做好準備因為這個剛剛也有很多人提這個Foodpanda這個UberEats他們這個新興平台已經存在十幾年了那目前估計至少有15萬以上的這個外送從業人員我們不能再拖了部長我最後有一個問題請教你上禮拜天有一群外籍勞工到勞動部做抗議你知道這件事嗎當然知道他們在抗議什麼他們抗議是這個被中介收了買工費的問題"},{"start":4218.462,"end":4246.234,"text":"然後 仲介費 然後要求什麼他們要求什麼要求要把這個希望能夠把這個買工費追回來嘛除了買工費嘛 那還有要求職聘吧長久的問題嘛 是 當然他們一定會提這個職聘的問題嘛 部長這些移工辛辛苦苦到台灣來打拼台灣除了有獨佈全球的仲介服務費之外還有這個無良仲介收取這個違法的買工費"},{"start":4247.918,"end":4250.64,"text":"那醫工不繳買工費會怎麼樣你知道嗎我們目前 就不幫你找工作啊"},{"start":4256.331,"end":4280.011,"text":"那他們一共每個月繳將近2000元的這個仲介服務費是給心酸的嗎繳心酸的嗎部長我要提醒你說我最喜歡找你以前講話可是每個人本來就要為他講過的話負責任嘛你當立委時也開過記者會批評喔買工費還要勞動部積極查緝違法仲介那現在你是部長囉掌握了權力那請問你有積極查緝嗎你有在積極查緝嗎"},{"start":4282.813,"end":4306.545,"text":"我跟陳委員報告其實我剛剛講到不管是職聘或者政府來做轉換我們這些事情接下來都會更加的努力包括我們其實現在也設了一個延攬中心這個延攬中心就是希望來強化國對國的職聘接下來我們也會針對我們的職聘服務中心還有轉換中心"},{"start":4307.245,"end":4322.076,"text":"我們會做功能上面的整合我們希望做服務上的整合把這部分的政府的角色能夠更加的強化這是我們非常在意的事情勞團說你們把眼睛閉上了裝作看不見了然後裝作沒這件事你接受這個批評嗎他們說啦"},{"start":4323.877,"end":4342.306,"text":"我們非常的在意關於職聘上面的工作那我不是嘴巴講講 這是我們也編列的資源編列的預算 也提了計畫接下來就是在職聘上面希望做得更好請問勞動部目前查到幾件違法的仲介的案件請問你有嗎 手邊有這個資料嗎有去查嗎 有查到嗎 違法仲介的部分"},{"start":4347.308,"end":4361.592,"text":"是113年到114年9月我們將好了好不好因為我的時間到你有資料對不對那我請會後拜託把這個資料送到辦公室來給我看讓我瞭解一下好謝謝部長謝謝趙偉謝謝陳昭之委員請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":4376.248,"end":4401.657,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言人邀請部長勞動部請部長楊委員好 是 部長今天討論關於外送平台管理及從業人員的權益保障法案那本席有提案所以本席要在這邊首先來請教你是否支持外送專法的立法"},{"start":4403.032,"end":4414.808,"text":"我剛才已經表達過支持那如果支持你認為這一步法到底是要保障誰是保障平台還是保障外送員"},{"start":4415.997,"end":4444.562,"text":"主要如果這部法最重要第一個是外送員再是消費者也包括合作的商家當然我們也希望還有這裡面會把這個平台他可能也需要一些創新的空間可以考慮進去但總的來說這個平台外送平台的工作其實他的利害相關方很多所以他其實也需要一些跨部會的分工一起來協助所以這個法也很重要他其實需要跨部會的分工在這個法裡面去做作用這很重要對"},{"start":4445.592,"end":4474.725,"text":"好 那本席也聽到部長您的論點是跟本席的方向是一樣的也就是你的地方也就是著重在外送員的一個保障跟權益這個很重要那所以本席要跟你再討論過去政府都不斷的告訴大家要立法來保障現在險性的部分大概是15萬位的這個外送員的一個權益但是我們看到在野黨提出的這個版本"},{"start":4475.345,"end":4500.113,"text":"到目前為止政府還沒有提出版本只有用嘴炮講所以本席希望剛剛聽到你說你的方向 你第一個是支持第二個是以外送員的一個權益為第一方 為最重要的所以本席要再請教 此時沒有提出甚至在你前任的部長 何部長他表達了"},{"start":4500.973,"end":4526.946,"text":"他終於是第一個表達說但是他是以個人的立場以個人的立場來支持專法所以本席看不到你們什麼時候要提出所以本席要請教因為我們外送的產業是有別於傳統產業有別於網路 有別於購物這些的勞僱關係的形態是一個新興的產業"},{"start":4528.167,"end":4547.391,"text":"但是現在法規有很多的模糊模糊地帶導致他們的權利需要立專法來保障那你認為這個專法的保障是有哪些大方向還有你現在版本到底什麼時候會提出請做說明"},{"start":4547.691,"end":4568.744,"text":"好跟委員說明我想我們並不是只是委員說的嘴砲其實我們這幾個月其實已經在著手研議專法的工作不要再跟我嘴砲因為十幾年一直告訴我們到現在還不提出跟委員說明我們希望內容基本上剛才委員問的方向裡面包括幾個事情第一個報酬要有保障"},{"start":4569.724,"end":4597.279,"text":"第二個停權或者是契約終止要有明確的有效的申訴的制度包括救濟的制度包括裡面保險的事項不管是這個商業保險或者是社會保險的部分那也包括裡面因為這是涉及到多方的權益包括消費者包括合作商家所以你的契約要有規範請問你預計什麼時候行政院版會出來我們現在在最後的階段我們可能還需要兩到三個月"},{"start":4597.919,"end":4624.031,"text":"兩到三個月現在是十月份十月中了所以換句話說你預計在十二月的時候會提出是不是如此十二月或一月我們會盡量趕十二月份的時候會提出因為現在在最後的法制作業程序上好 我們就暫估你會在十二月份的提出接下來本席跟你討論平台計算以及演算法的一個派單本席認為應該要透明化因為比如說"},{"start":4627.072,"end":4645.237,"text":"計費 運價訂定的方式都應該透明 對不對那所以政府一直支持里程的計費但是也有很多外送人員認為沒有辦法去解決所有的問題因為在計費外 這個業者還可以空擔"},{"start":4646.377,"end":4675.843,"text":"要怎麼樣讓派單能夠透明化才能夠根源的解決一致性的不公平的一個樣態請教你們在你們的要預計12月底提出的這個內容裡頭有沒有包括這項我們當然會針對相關的權益比方說如果外送員拒單或者是外送員他下線我們認為這不能有不利的對待因為現在大家現在擔心的派單的這個機制的透明化就擔心說"},{"start":4676.809,"end":4704.967,"text":"外送員會不會因為拒單或者是因為下線就被不利的對待然後在派單上面就會有差別的對待或者是不利的對待那我想我們在我們的研議裡面也認為這邊不應該有不利的對待好 這個方向你這麼說表示會納入我們也希望趕快看到你們的文字呈現因為外送員他也面對到工作不穩定缺乏職災保障的這些問題這都是政府目前必須要積極因為我們已經等了十幾年"},{"start":4705.928,"end":4715.535,"text":"已經等了十幾年所以我們要看到外送平台它現在幾乎是承攬的關係在法規上規避的應有的保障所以我們必須要立專法有68%的外送員他是沒有勞保 沒有職災保也缺乏了整個完整性的第三責任險"},{"start":4725.362,"end":4741.4,"text":"所以在整個完整的保險也就是勞僱關係這相關的議題當中包括外送員以及外送平台業者他不是只有僱傭的這個關係應該他要適用在我們勞工保險條例裡頭以及勞工職貸保險條例跟保障法"},{"start":4745.524,"end":4759.561,"text":"能夠讓他們有一個完整的保險這才是我們要做同時在外送人員在送的當中如果萬一有事件發生的時候僱主應該要有通報的義務等規範你讚不讚同"},{"start":4760.404,"end":4780.761,"text":"跟委員說明當然因為大家現在對包括保險的權益也是不管是商保或者是社會保險尤其是植栽保險尤其是栽保的部分這是現在外送員最關心的部分好所以呢我們的方向討論到目前大概方向有一致的方向我也希望能夠進出提出行政院版的這個版本"},{"start":4783.022,"end":4808.181,"text":"那同時我們到時候在討論的時候也希望本期所提出的都是傾聽了我們外送人員的心聲我們希望能夠真正讓這個新興產業讓這些從業人員能夠安心我們認為在這個議題上面是一個很好潮也可以一起合作來幫助外送員把權益做得更好的機會好 我相信所有的外送員以及平台大家都看到我們的訊息腳步積極 謝謝"},{"start":4811.012,"end":4813.393,"text":"謝謝楊純英委員發言 請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席 想請部長 洪部長請洪部長陳委員好"},{"start":4830.237,"end":4853.43,"text":"謝謝部長上週我們有質詢到空服員還有圍繞整個航空業包括地勤空除或者是免稅店等等那這邊有講到說比如說像其他航空他就有不同國籍的空服員有完全不同的待遇另外呢他們也有說如果多請假可能會列入考機要寄申戒然後"},{"start":4854.571,"end":4874.552,"text":"就是不管是委員 議員其實都收到非常多的陳情上禮拜您答應我說要開始跟航空公司溝通我也有看到您確實去了我想問一下你們除了航空公司到底溝通了幾家航空業所環繞的產業你們是不是也有去溝通然後進度如何"},{"start":4876.244,"end":4900.16,"text":"我想在上禮拜委員會之後那因為朝野很多委員都關心所以我們在上禮拜其實就找了六家 七家六家航空公司來跟他們討論那在會上大家也做成了一個共識對四點的共識那其中一個很重要的部分就是病假不應該列入這個勤奪考核"},{"start":4901.605,"end":4916.733,"text":"那除了航空業以外就是本席有跟您說圍繞著航空業其他的地勤空除免稅店其實也一直反映這樣子的問題地勤當然也是在航空業裡面那其他的其他的還沒其他的可能會跟地方主管機關來做一些討論但我們確實上禮拜比較先針對的是航空業的部分"},{"start":4927.748,"end":4937.469,"text":"那你們針對航空業的這個部分你們希望他改善好除了你剛提到的議題其他議題請問可以一個月內跟你要到報告嗎應該有其他的吧"},{"start":4938.902,"end":4966.935,"text":"委員關心的是那個航空業裡面的服務人員包含他的病假包含他的考核而且我們會強調是因為六家國籍航空公司都有工會所以可能六家的這個我們在溝通過程裡面他們工會關心的這個相關的細節會不一所以我們也要求航空業者應該要盡速的安排跟工會協商那這一塊的部分也進入到這個業者也都同意也達成在共識的那個事項裡面好"},{"start":4967.535,"end":4988.113,"text":"那還有環繞航空業比如說免稅店空儲等等這個如果您還行有餘力我們真的希望您去關心他們因為是跟他們綁在一起的包括工時等等所以他們也面臨了一樣很多超時或是高壓的對待這部分我想我們再來了解好 謝謝"},{"start":4989.898,"end":5008.413,"text":"那這邊呢也是要感謝趙偉啦 趙偉這是幫趙偉整理出來的我們從立法院的議事系統發言系統去盤點曾經提出外送員專法的人裡面包括五位國民黨的委員包括民眾黨包括時代力量"},{"start":5009.654,"end":5037.447,"text":"就獨落了一個黨啊叫做民進黨那我們看一下昨天早上民進黨團居然大張旗鼓的開了一個極度虛假的記者會這個就是執政黨的態度啊苗頭不對就開始收割開始各種蹭這跟普發現金又面臨了一模一樣的問題普發現金本來說是毀線亂正要救大罷免突然又變成暖心照顧全民真安心"},{"start":5038.527,"end":5043.671,"text":"我真的不理解我為召委感到不平啊為什麼他們有什麼資格開這種極度虛假的記者會這個可能部長也記得2023年的時候外送人員環繞著立法院進行抗議希望當時的民進黨團可以聽到他們的心聲那為什麼是希望當時的民進黨團是因為當時的民進黨團只要想修什麼法就可以通過什麼法沒有"},{"start":5066.389,"end":5090.835,"text":"只要他們不想修的就不想修自始至終都沒有體會這些人的心聲這些人大概有統計起來目前官方的數字大概有14萬 15萬了那也還好廖偉祥召委今天排了外送員草案的審查民進黨團才趁著昨天趕快召開記者會跟大家報告說會提出相關版本支持外送員"},{"start":5091.835,"end":5106.945,"text":"不覺得什麼都沒有手上什麼都沒有就開始開記者會真的是只有民進黨團可以不斷的超越自己的極限那這邊部長我再念一次去年2024年外送產業理事監事長"},{"start":5108.286,"end":5111.829,"text":"王育洋代表說行政院從來沒有一個版本是ZERO行政院跟民進黨在冷氣房裡面研議了12年那剛才部長有講到說其實你們已經討論了好幾個月了然後昨天晚上我們很細讀你的報告你討論了好幾個月修法你也沒寫進你的報告你沒寫進你的報告"},{"start":5133.945,"end":5163.225,"text":"你是今天早上突然才跟我們說有你有修法進度你希望12月以前可以提出來這邊寫的很明顯啦其實你們已經研議了12年那你OK你說你有修法進度你幾個月內都有你沒有寫在報告裡啊你昨天的報告重點是告訴我們大家說你開放開放各種不同的聲音然後你要推出一個指引不是你想說你先說"},{"start":5164.468,"end":5172.164,"text":"第一個其實在昨天的院會上面我們其實就已經表達其實我們是贊成法治化的方向這個法治化的意思其實當然就是定力轉法"},{"start":5173.487,"end":5200.027,"text":"那你也可以把你12月前會推出這個辦法寫在你的報告裡面確實現在我說我們其實在研議跟規劃行政部門的版本的這件事上因為它還有一些跨部會的部分要去做整合因為外送的這整個事情它涉及到跨部會的一些權責比方說消費者的部分或者是平台店家的部分這就不太是勞動部可以來主責的部分"},{"start":5200.327,"end":5229.967,"text":"所以你的意思是說這個研議了12年因為之前你們都一直說研議了12年不斷不斷的在研議嗎你現在終於要把它統整起來了是我可以跟委員報告確實過去我不否認過去其實行政部門對於這個是比較是用我們認為比較用指引的方式來處理可是這幾個月我們認為其實應該是可以要朝法治化的方向不是這幾個月你昨天的報告也寫指引"},{"start":5230.787,"end":5253.461,"text":"你昨天的報告其實我們裡面很清楚是寫到說其實我們是贊成法治化的方向那你昨天報告也沒有寫你12月以前可以提出那但是確實是因為現在法治的程序他有他一定後面要走的程序所以我們剛才其實也是在評估這個法治的程序上面其實最快最快可能我們要個三個月的時間"},{"start":5254.601,"end":5279.891,"text":"因為我們廖友祥召委他是非常有決心的我們會在這個會期因為已經列為國民黨團民眾黨團的優先法案我們會在這個會期送出我們的委員會那請問你有沒有信心你的版本可以跟我們一起審查然後出這個委員會我希望可以如果我當然希望可以"},{"start":5281.765,"end":5299.93,"text":"因為現在外送員要的絕對不是指引那昨天民進黨也直接民進黨團設定外送員專法的主管機關就是勞動部代表勞動部對此有很大的責任那我是希望我們召委在審查這個草案的過程不會缺乏你們的角色這樣子可以嗎"},{"start":5300.749,"end":5324.503,"text":"當然我們當然不會我們當然不會缺席那希望比12月的進度再快一點畢竟你也研擬了12年因為這裡面真的後面的人搖頭因為真的有一些法制作業其實條文的內容其實我們差不多可是因為真的行政部門會有一個法制的程序比方說要預告要法規會審議那這些相關的這些相關的程序還是要走過所以這個是比較不好意思"},{"start":5325.363,"end":5344.885,"text":"謝謝你們在一個晚上就跟上我們的腳步那再來呢我要講到上次你記不記得有一天有我跟很多執政黨的委員一起問你關於AI的問題那這個是剛得到莫諾貝爾經濟學得獎10月13才得到的加拿大經濟學家叫做Peter Howitt"},{"start":5345.365,"end":5361.937,"text":"那他的畢生成就呢就是在於闡述用破壞性創造性的破壞如何驅動經濟成長的理論稍微站起來我快速我快速講完他的理論呢他就說AI是一個非常神奇的技術所以他認為"},{"start":5363.098,"end":5389.218,"text":"AI具有摧毀其他工作或是取代高技能勞動力的潛力那我想說的是他其實利用他人生很榮耀的一個時刻他來對全世界第一手市井那這是我們上次提到的問題上次我們許多委員都關心到AI可能有就業歧視啊演算法的偏見啊職場監控等等所以你說你預計也是發表一個相關的指引"},{"start":5390.078,"end":5399.586,"text":"然後距離年底剩下兩個多月了目前你的指引的內容除了你講到的這三樣你認為有沒有需要再增加項目"},{"start":5401.195,"end":5425.855,"text":"其實因為AI的發展是持續進行的所以其實這三個指引其實我們也研擬到一個階段所以我們其實正在請一些相關的專家學者來跟我們確認我們指引的內容現在大概進入到這個階段我剛已經跟你說了其實這位經濟學家他就是示警說他會直接取代勞工的工作所以我認為您的指引必須要再增加項目那我在這邊提供您一個意見"},{"start":5426.936,"end":5454.073,"text":"這個是您自己發表的台灣勞工記刊勞動部自己出版的那去年3月就刊出了第77期官網上都有而且我們當時都已經在立法院了這一篇是文化大學的潘士偉教授寫的他的標題就是數位轉型對勞資關係的影響跟因應很長但是我把重點整理給您我希望您的指引可以納入您自己出版物裡面所講到的"},{"start":5455.273,"end":5469.738,"text":"對於勞工的AI教育技術提升甚至是預防被取代的具體措施還有保障勞工基本權益的聽取解釋權以及確立由勞工操作AI而不是被AI操作的根本原則"},{"start":5471.55,"end":5489.928,"text":"我是建議您把這些列入你的指引裡面跟陳委員報告因為的確這個相關的研議其實是一個蠻專業的工作所以我們其實也是現在把這幾個指引不管是有些部分需要跨部會比方說我們在跟數位部討論也在找數位部討論那跟一些相關的AI發展的專家在討論"},{"start":5490.649,"end":5508.453,"text":"我們的相關的指引有沒有缺漏的地方還有可行性還有未來其實還要一定發展性因為AI的發展並不是到現在停在這邊他會持續的發展所以要讓他有一定的擴充性寫的也不錯會比您當初提出來的三點其實可以再更加擴充謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳金惠委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":5521.573,"end":5535.752,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請洪部長請洪部長蘇緯好你有什麼看法我很佩服你 很穩"},{"start":5538.868,"end":5565.668,"text":"很穩 不急不息不錯 來我們COVID-19就是新冠病毒全世界都封 到處封封鎖 封院 封城 封鄉所以那個時候的平台外送是全世界最火熱那我們那個時候的從業人員可能不是只有現在的15萬吧搞不好double都有 不定"},{"start":5567.27,"end":5577.657,"text":"你也不知道嘛 多少人知道 當然 當然那差不多多少人 那個時候差不多多少人跟委員報告都差不多在我們現在同期在15萬到17萬的中間那個最高峰是這樣"},{"start":5584.879,"end":5605.518,"text":"好 那我今天有四個問題來問你四個問題 時間有限剛剛有很多委員說這個法例已經七八年 七十年都沒進度 現在恆恆開始在加強那我要問你就是我們勞動部還有我們行政院的態度是什麼"},{"start":5608.925,"end":5631.721,"text":"我們的態度其實現在很清楚我們當然 我們現在是支持那我們也願意來推動外送員的權益的法制化所以你也沒有排除要頂專法沒有 如果說就說嘛我們認為是可以用法制化來處理相關現在外送員非常關注的權益那其他的國家是用什麼方式"},{"start":5632.481,"end":5639.978,"text":"其實有用法律其實也有用相關的指引其實都有因為這個法也不好實施"},{"start":5642.379,"end":5664.722,"text":"這個法的應該是說確實因為外送平台的形態跟傳統的工作形態是不一樣的所以這個專法如果要定起來的話它的複雜度其實相比過去的一些勞動法規來說它的複雜度是比較高的尤其它涉及到的部會會蠻多的所以要做很好的部會分工因為比方說"},{"start":5665.703,"end":5683.829,"text":"可能這會涉及到平台跟消費者的部分平台跟這個店家的部分那這部分的確就不一定都是勞動部可以來管轄的部分沒錯…好 那第二個問題就是Uber Eats跟Foodpanda前一陣子說要合併然後後來又停下來"},{"start":5685.069,"end":5705.738,"text":"那如果這個兩個合併我看起來一年的市場規模差不多六百億那這個會不會造成這個平台的壟斷平台的阿爸更加嚴重 柏定後來政府沒有同意合併所以沒有同意嘛所以兩個 一半一半"},{"start":5707.777,"end":5734.082,"text":"比例可能要再兩邊的比例我可能要再查一下所以短期內這要合併也不可能這個好事情第三個問題我們台灣現在的時薪part-time的時薪現在是190吧明年會196196我看日本的時薪part-time的時薪在都會區是230塊台幣"},{"start":5736.78,"end":5743.665,"text":"鄉下是兩百億所以我們已經追到日本快要追平了那你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5744.929,"end":5768.849,"text":"我今天只有一位老師在課題目一條條的確實這幾年在最低工資的時薪的條幅上面是蠻明顯的成長那這裡某個部分也是因為政府其實很關注比方說有很多年輕的工作族群他是用時薪的方式兼職的方式其實在進行工作所以我"},{"start":5769.53,"end":5780.887,"text":"政府也覺得提高時薪對於這些年輕的工作的族群可能打工或者是兼職其實對他們的基本的經濟生活是有幫助的所以也做了一定的調伏"},{"start":5781.604,"end":5807.711,"text":"那明年台灣說IMF說台灣的GDP個人會達到三萬多美金會超過韓國不過很多年輕人跟百姓都沒有感覺那你的看法是真的有那麼高還是假的還是因為我們AI晶片撐高這個假象"},{"start":5809.071,"end":5824.524,"text":"跟委員說明 其實當然IMF發布或者是這些研究機構發布的數字當然不是假的啦這個當然有他們的專業可是我們也理解其實對於很多一般的壽星階級來說傳統產業有些是不行對 一般壽星階級來說他們也會感覺到這裡面行業之間是有差異的"},{"start":5830.689,"end":5839.573,"text":"那尤其是以勞動部的角度來說當然我們要特別關注這些邊際勞工或者是薪資比較低的族群這是我們特別需要關注的"},{"start":5839.949,"end":5868.062,"text":"我們傳統產業佔的百分比是蠻高的那他們的薪資事實上跟這一些科技業是天壤之別所以你們的重點是要照顧這些人如果提高這些人的實質的待遇這也是為什麼我們這幾年連續十年的調整最低工資的原因其實就是因為我們需要特別關注跟幫忙政府需要特別關注跟幫忙這些薪資真的是比較低的邊際勞工"},{"start":5869.082,"end":5897.214,"text":"好 那第四個問題我請交通部次長也上來一下陳彥博兄我想這個法如果用專法最主要就是勞保健保還有職災 再來就是工時那工時這個外送員他手上摩托車放在摩托車上面就算上班"},{"start":5900.086,"end":5909.971,"text":"那個遊覽車司機 卡車司機手放在寒冬路上上班 是不是這樣我告訴你 媒體採訪車 媒體採訪車喔樓下喔 請問要抓那個洪部長的什麼什麼文在你家前面 在那邊等沒有在那邊等"},{"start":5922.523,"end":5940.887,"text":"那個司機 那都是算公司那都常常在糾紛所以這個都一樣所以最重要就是這個公使的界定而且平台如果是變成僱主那是會促發的 那是有刑責的部長 還有次長怎麼回答"},{"start":5942.266,"end":5965.186,"text":"跟委員說明其實因為在外送平台裡面他會有一個上限的時間就是因為這是一個數位平台的運作所以他會有上限或下限的狀態所以有很多工時我們是認為可能會是從上限的時間然後來去做計算然後跟下或者是下限用上限跟下限的部分來去做一個工時的掌握"},{"start":5966.983,"end":5993.676,"text":"我很怕到時候變成這個專法上了之後那這個平台受不了因為那個動不動就處罰嘛上限 工時 難界定那到時候如果有爭議的話是很麻煩的那到時候會不會變成說我不要請你了你都來做part-time就好了那就回到原來的part-time然後你的勞建保 領導台資你自己有一個空缺你在part-time來做這個外送"},{"start":5994.997,"end":6014.301,"text":"很多啊 很多這樣我就有實際的民意代表中間又遭遇了這種事現在其實在外送員的群體裡面其實兼職是比較大眾的現在兼職是比較大眾的所以你立這個法之後會不會回到我剛剛講的問題 會不會沒有照顧到他們"},{"start":6019.284,"end":6047.38,"text":"反而會衍生更多的問題跟我們說明基本上我們要如果要去處理這個法的話我覺得最基本的事情會在幾件事情上第一個比方說報酬要有基本的保障報酬要有基本保障第二個是他們現在遇到的一些權益問題我指的權益問題是指比方說停權比方說契約終止這些像這些權益那怎麼樣子讓外送員能夠有明確的申訴跟有效的申訴跟救濟的機制"},{"start":6048.54,"end":6072.587,"text":"而不是只是平台一方說的算現在大家最多的抱怨跟最多的點就是在說這些事情好像都變成只是平台說的算那理由也不是很清楚那我覺得可能我們要從這些角度來去在這個法裡面去做更進一步的範定那這個對他們的權益的保障主要是處理這些問題那也包括剛剛委員講到的包括商業保險或者是像職災保險"},{"start":6074.668,"end":6089.043,"text":"對 像我們以前遊覽車都來陳情說想要去莫里 韓道路上面就算上班車上如果一個人就算上班如果人家都趕趕下去出去去莫里去韓道路就算"},{"start":6092.106,"end":6098.41,"text":"所以就變成說要請兩個司機 市長是不是這樣你們那邊車 腳車也一樣 你那時候怎麼過現在再稍微恢復 最後一個問題"},{"start":6106.327,"end":6121.001,"text":"原則上這牽涉到剛才特別提到的駕駛時間或者是相關的一個工時那剛才委員特別提到說然後一個人或者是他在休息也算這個整個是屬於工作上的一個時間的規範但是就駕駛"},{"start":6124.184,"end":6149.916,"text":"遊覽車駕駛我們現在是規範遊覽車從上工到下工大概有11個小時的時間是可以做處理的所以剛才委員特別提到的說會有駕駛員有些爭議目前來講是透過這樣的機制在做處理所以11個小時內他自己調整休息是 他是駕駛的時間至於說這個11個小時裡頭是不是違反所謂工時那是另外一個認定的問題"},{"start":6152.31,"end":6157.213,"text":"所以這個問題是蠻複雜的好要研究啦我沒有預設立場了解了解好謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員發言請邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請洪部長"},{"start":6182.614,"end":6211.101,"text":"邱委員好 部長好我想請問針對國內缺工這個嚴重我們行政院長卓榮泰上週表示政府將於短時間內提出全國勞動力總檢討那這個新政策未來引進的移工的速度 數量以及方式都將與過去不同能更廣泛地滿足產業與家庭端的人力需求也就是要擴大引進移工這個我想請問部長是不是這樣子"},{"start":6212.775,"end":6233.6,"text":"跟邱委員報告的確因為行政委交付給我們一個非常重要的任務是對整體的勞動力的供需進行評估那尤其是針對這個跨國的勞動力進行評估所以我們目前其實也是朝向就像我記得這樣過去在講到這個問題的時候我們民進黨的委員都很慎重那也影響國內勞工的怕影響這個國內勞工的工作權益"},{"start":6242.389,"end":6260.57,"text":"那包含賴清德這個院長那總統當那時候當院長的時候他要修的新經濟移民法也是這樣胎死腹中那這一次由葛奎宣是要這個擴大引進勞工我們的規模到底有多大會不會搞到後面又雷聲大雨點小然後又胎死腹中"},{"start":6261.01,"end":6283.828,"text":"我想不一定是說大或小來看待這件事情我覺得最重要的事情還是幾個原則第一個我們還是會秉持本國勞工優先本國勞工的就業機會跟勞動條件這件事要優先考慮因為這個如果一開放當然他就可能是現在我們大概就已經85萬了那逃逸的移工大概也有9萬多人"},{"start":6285.629,"end":6307.235,"text":"那加加起來如果再擴大的話可能是上百萬人因為這樣的一個規模我希望就是說我們更多主管機關能夠一起來做一個討論提出一個完整的配套不要只有勞動部的考量我個人這樣想因為可能每個人這些移工進來之後可能會有相關的其他部會也會有同樣"},{"start":6308.415,"end":6336.572,"text":"也是會有責任的所以我希望把他們的意見也納入可以嗎我們不是用大或小就是說一定要多大規模來思考這件事情我現在不是講大小因為已經有那麼多人嘛你如果說在引進的話是不是就是他可能人數可能就超過百萬那是不是這些跨部會的這個協調還有各個可能發生的原因是不是都要把它納入我想做一個希望你們這邊能做一個完整的一個配套"},{"start":6337.512,"end":6360.593,"text":"當然 移工政策的檢討或精進配套是很重要的那目前開放的這個職業以哪些產業為主這些移工我想跟委員說明因為當然我們現在政策的研議跟評估現在還是在最後的階段所以我們有最後的結果我們會盡快跟大家報告什麼時候"},{"start":6361.534,"end":6381.258,"text":"什麼時候會有報告應該會盡快吧你的盡快可以給個時間嗎盡快一個月兩個月我們現在在做最後的一些程序最後你就講個時間就好了你講不出我講我這邊的話是盡快三個月不會那麼久"},{"start":6387.984,"end":6413.83,"text":"不會那麼久啦 那就一個月啦好啦 不要超過三個月啦不要跟你討價還價 現在不是買東西耶那結論啦 就是希望針對這次擴大引進這個移工除了三個原則來改善缺工我希望能夠有這個整體考量包含健保資源 社會安全網逃逸移工的處理以及調整移民政策等等來協助台灣的這個產業"},{"start":6415.63,"end":6437.471,"text":"另外我們的Uber可能投資我們的福分大母公司部長 雖然經過勞動部與公平會的反對雖然Uber這邊已經終止了福分大台灣公司的併購案根據公開的資訊Uber仍可能投資德力赫洛或台灣子公司這部分我們勞動部是否有掌握"},{"start":6442.35,"end":6446.263,"text":"如果是外資投資的話經濟部都會來爭取我們的意見"},{"start":6446.974,"end":6473.712,"text":"我覺得你們要趕快掌握這個訊息因為你才能夠提早這個因應無論是買台灣的富分大的股份還是買國外母公司的股份如果成為富分大的最大股東都有可能變成實質影響台灣外送員的勞動權益如果發生這種情形我希望部長有想過怎麼樣來協助嗎"},{"start":6476.613,"end":6476.92,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6477.711,"end":6505.913,"text":"我想這個因為這部分比較涉及到企業的經營經營跟投資那我們能夠勞動部能夠處理部分還是對於我們還是要保護我們本國的勞工基本的權益來做保護我們基本還是從這個角度因為面對這種可能市場壟斷威脅三年過去的我們勞動部一直以爭取外界共識為這個藉口拖延當然當時你還沒上任不怪你所以至今沒有到這個外送員"},{"start":6507.194,"end":6527.279,"text":"專法部長你最後臨為壽命你覺得這個剛剛我有看到你們準備提版本嗎已經準備提版本了我們有準備那什麼時候會好現在大概進入最後的法制程序可能我們還有三個月左右時間兩三個月時間我希望你們快一點因為這個東西對於我們這個外送員的這個權益"},{"start":6532.1,"end":6557.014,"text":"的保障非常非常的重要那我們現在有跟這個外送平台這個有開過會嗎有常開會嗎多久開始到不是定期但是不定期平台跟外送社群我看到最近兩次會議已經拉到4個月最後一次開會是3月14號那到現在7個月都沒召開嗎"},{"start":6559.134,"end":6574.39,"text":"跟委員說明其實跟其實我們跟不管是平台或者是外送員的互動或者是相關的諮詢跟協調也不是只是單單只在現在的對話平台上面而已這是持續一直在進行的事情你們開會沒有會議記錄"},{"start":6576.519,"end":6583.764,"text":"那為什麼沒有掛上去的所以你是主管機關啦我覺得如果他們還是不願意接受的話你們應該有作為吧"},{"start":6607.46,"end":6625.635,"text":"跟文說明所以這也是為什麼我們後來我們也覺得是不是要用更進一步的法治化的方法對啊所以我覺得覺得應該你們要更加快腳步啊我們也是在這個思考下面堂堂勞動部委對不對這些講不聽那怎麼辦呢還是要想個辦法吧"},{"start":6626.94,"end":6635.949,"text":"好那最後啦我想時間的問題我再請問我剛看到我們的交通部陳次長有到"},{"start":6640.785,"end":6667.333,"text":"外送員大多使用機車在街頭討生活這個部分非常不安全那根據統計最高峰一年曾發生8400件的交通事故光是台北市就將近了2000件那交通部公路局也依據這個分工訂了機車外送安全指引那市長你是否同意應該鼓勵外送員去上這個交通安全指引課程以保障他們的這個職業安全衛生"},{"start":6669.888,"end":6685.641,"text":"對 我想要跟委員報告我們有這個安全指引之後其實裡頭有很多的一個措施當然包含業者要有相關的一個安全對於外送員要有講習那外送員如果有交通違規比較不好的甚至還要派去駕訓班去受訓等等的"},{"start":6686.061,"end":6705.559,"text":"那整體指引通過之後平均每一車的事故的肇事率原來的0.68降到0.24所以有用嘛是不是要統一路法來做規定然後到公路間單位去配合執行這個部分"},{"start":6706.719,"end":6726.606,"text":"我想在這個部分因為不管是講習分兩塊一個是剛才我講的業者自己的一個訓練自律的也是那另外一個有關道安講習所以其實駕駛人這個外送員也是一樣他的違規如果達到一定的一個標準就是本來我們的講習辦法裡頭就是要講習所以這部分"},{"start":6726.986,"end":6753.53,"text":"對啦 因為這個外送員已經大概十幾萬人在做這個確實是他們要賺錢生活可是也要讓他們顧到這個基本的人身安全好不好 希望這種事情能夠降低部長 次長再麻煩你是 謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員質詢現在宣告待會廖偉祥委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘"},{"start":6776.826,"end":6777.849,"text":"謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":6784.656,"end":6810.147,"text":"廖委員長部長好其實本席還是蠻疑惑的這個昨天在行政院總質詢的時候我們在幫外送員來講說要外送平台啦要立這個專法的時候其實你並沒有這麼直接了當的說出說你你是願意支持你只有說會有指引而且是說明年1月才有指引為什麼到今天這個突然"},{"start":6811.232,"end":6837.166,"text":"因為我昨天在現場我其實是你並沒有說你會支持專法然後包含我問院長院長也沒有直接開口說他願意支持專法那今天怎麼突然突然變了這個跟我說明這這絕對不是今天突然如果是今天突然的話那我們不用再幾個月前就開始研擬專法的內容那其實昨天在院會上面我應該是有很清楚說我們其實對於要立要法治化"},{"start":6838.166,"end":6863.847,"text":"那我們其實是一個開放的態度很願意來和委員會一起來做審議對你說開放的態度其實跟今天還是有點不一樣今天很肯定今天特別肯定但是本席也很樂見所以你是肯定說你支持網專法的這個方向嘛對不對當然這也是為什麼我們這幾個月一直在做這個法治化的研議請問那大概是多久你所謂幾個月是什麼時候開始的應該是上半年吧上半年上半年大概幾月"},{"start":6865.171,"end":6878.851,"text":"然後那個是五六月五六月那是有是有外勞動部嗎去主要去召集嗎跟文說明因為其實外送平台裡面有很多的權責真的他涉及到跨部會"},{"start":6880.41,"end":6893.198,"text":"所以當然從五六月開始我們就開始做相關的研議包括哪些的部分的條文要如何放進去然後哪些的部分對我的意思是說部長請問那個時候的主責單位是誰"},{"start":6895.646,"end":6920.204,"text":"你是說法的主責單位就是在推動這件事情的主責單位 是勞動部呢我們當然是從部裡面先做所以是勞動部主責 法的因為其實蠻奇怪的因為委員的法也都是放到勞動部是 但是蠻奇怪的因為其實過去在修這個法的時候當時勞動部的部長何佩珊是有公開談成她說行政院內部還在討論這個專法應該有哪個部會擔任主管機關"},{"start":6925.39,"end":6944.606,"text":"對不對那其實今天你的報告也也也跟你的講法真的是有矛盾喔你說經行政院這裡面寫新經行政院邀集各部會多次研商後已指定交通部擔任外送平台治理機關之後現在已由交通部統籌處理外送平台納管議題"},{"start":6946.924,"end":6956.518,"text":"我想要釐清這個問題 跟委員說明外送平台的目的事業主管的治理機關是目前行政院是指定交通部"},{"start":6957.796,"end":6981.686,"text":"因為這裡面涉及到我剛才說涉及到平台的治理包括貨運他其實某部分他有一些貨運的性質包括消費者包括合作店家等等等等所以是由交通部來做這個平台的治理機關但外送員權益的部分當然是由勞動部這邊所以那我可以理解就是說現在你們大概有共"},{"start":6982.326,"end":7001.907,"text":"這個有個方向就是說在訂定這個平台管理跟專法的時候由勞動部來做一個主責推動的機關因為這個法裡面比較多的內容其實是外送員的權益所以這個法的主管機關是我們可是裡面也會涉及到其他的相關的業務今天問這個就是想要確定這件事"},{"start":7002.367,"end":7017.695,"text":"的確會牽扯到一些相關的部會本席也認同也需要跨部會的去趕快的協調然後因為你在修法過程中會牽扯到其他的單位嘛所以我本席要確定是說是由勞動部我們要有一個共識是這樣這個法的主管機關我們願意承擔是由勞動部來處理因為我"},{"start":7021.897,"end":7039.687,"text":"我要告訴部長的就是其實過去多年來6年多以前開始討論以來一直行政院一直是用這個理由在推委就是推託時間說因為這個權責不明不知道從哪一個主管機關等等等的問題這一類的問題就是導致這個立法的延宕"},{"start":7040.367,"end":7064.461,"text":"不然當初在民進黨執政全面執政的情況之下照理說推動這個法案是相對的比較容易的協調的那也不用到了今天不過沒關係我們就先確認一下因為本席認為其實因為外送員的廣大群體所以您在不管是未來在立法上面到底是承攬僱傭還是相關或是新型態其實這個勞動部的權責都很大"},{"start":7067.462,"end":7090.22,"text":"都是負責這個主責的很重要的一個塊所以現在我們有共識沒有問題那另外本席想要問的事情就是說你說從上半年開始那目前的進度和細節到底到哪裡了幾次開召開了幾次會議總共算不出來對不對那目前的細節到哪裡你們目前到就是進度到哪裡"},{"start":7091.171,"end":7107.719,"text":"我們基本上應該是基本上的條文的架構跟條文的內容到最後階段到最後階段最後階段是報行政院嗎還沒還沒現在是還在部裡面可是因為這些條文最後的內容也還有要跟跨部會去做確認的部分那本席想要請問最快什麼時候可以"},{"start":7108.419,"end":7134.86,"text":"我們認為可能希望在三個月三個月真的太久了本席是不是可以希望你們禁訴因為這樣大家才可以共同一起來討論我們會禁訴然後我也希望禁訴可是因為比方說因為行政部門要推出的法治程序比方說還是必須要預告還是必須要經過法規會的審議然後包括那你的這些時間點你現在可以說明一下嗎比如說你們什麼時候要預告你現在的進度比較細節的部分"},{"start":7135.32,"end":7157.64,"text":"我跟委員說我自己也希望盡快因為我們也不希望被認為我們在拖延所以盡快是我們最重要在這上面的原則可是因為會有很多的審議的時間他不單單只是勞動部自己審議所以我沒有辦法去打一個包票說其他單位的審議一定多久來部長或者只能多久我這裡希望盡快其實還有一個原因"},{"start":7158.661,"end":7187.476,"text":"因為拖了很久之外其實地方政府都有自治條例那現在發生的問題就是說其實有時候地方自治條例在打官司訴訟的時候其實有很多的問題出現那其實我相信禁訴的法制化其實是對於各個利害關係人也有好處包含平台方包含外送員包含店家對不對還有包含消費者所以因為現在沒有一個"},{"start":7188.696,"end":7215.649,"text":"專法讓各個地方政府有一個依據所以其實現在對於平台來講他的這個法治風險不確定性也是非常的高所以我必須說我想要進一步的問因為最近這個台灣法院也有透過實質從屬的判決明確傳達說平台跟外送員之間的關係可能是假承攬真僱傭的立場所以我本席想問說那你們目前在討論的過程當中這部分你們打算怎麼界定"},{"start":7216.409,"end":7241.304,"text":"還是要參考所謂歐盟模式就是用這個推定僱傭可是平台負責去舉證說他不是僱傭應該是現在因為外送的議題裡面確實有一個很重要的部分就是怎麼去界定他的勞動關係所以我們自己會認為因為現在到底他是僱傭或者是承攬之間其實可能還有各方不同的看法"},{"start":7242.424,"end":7258.733,"text":"所以我本席才想問所以我們認為我們可以因為你說條文架構大概我們可以做的事情是把外送員應該要有的權益該有的權益的保障直接明確的正面的把它訂定出來對當然這個方式這個部分但是這個部分您可能要注意一下"},{"start":7259.133,"end":7281.587,"text":"然後而且這也蠻重要這也有關於未來在平台或者這個從業人員跟法院上面這樣子的關係也很重要就是外送員該有的哪些權益直接正面的把它給訂定出來我們就講到最具體的權益的部分好了那我想要請教一下部長你認為外送員一個小時大概可以跑幾單其實要看他長程短程"},{"start":7282.797,"end":7305.237,"text":"對 你大概可以跑幾單多一點的話可能兩單 三單 四單都有可能對 大概 我覺得大概就是三單嘛對不對 大概可以抓三單都有 但是就看長程短程因為這也是外送員會這個詬病的地方或是他們覺得透明法這個所謂演算法不透明的部分像他也有反映說這個平台業者為了要同時在繁忙的時段"},{"start":7307.539,"end":7321.076,"text":"讓這個外送員有足夠的量在跑單所以他會故意讓外送員可能從A點到B點明明很近但是他會另外派一個比較長的單讓他再線所以才可以去接下一個單不知道部長您懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":7322.157,"end":7344.839,"text":"當然你懂我意思嗎對不對好那沒關係這個是演算法的部分但我想要講的就是說其實跑三單所以因此這個有一個比較明確的訴求是他們也希望這個保障基本費用是至少不得低於時薪的三分之一因為你如果一個小時跑三單的話一個小時跑三單的話他們是希望基本費是不是是三分之一不能低於三分之一"},{"start":7346.079,"end":7371.73,"text":"我們現在基本上是對於它的整體的報酬我想我們要有一個最低的保障好 我以上提供給你們我現在看起來因為你嘴巴上說有大概的框架其實有幾個關鍵的問題看起來部長是回答不出來所以是希望您可以盡速回去瞭解一下然後這個部分可能也是他們比較相關的這個議題是他們比較在乎的"},{"start":7372.47,"end":7389.464,"text":"我們在報酬的問題上面基本上我們比較會說對整體的報酬要有一個最低的基本保障那不能低於這最低的基本不能低於這最低的基本保障所以你整體的報酬的最低基本保障大概是比方說像一般的勞工的話是最低工資嘛"},{"start":7390.649,"end":7412.462,"text":"所以現在我剛講的也是時薪啊對我剛講的也是時薪啊所以我剛才問你說你覺得他一個小時可以送幾單啊這也是他們介意的點我知道你現在沒有辦法馬上給答案喔因為他這個是一個相關的數據你們我只是想要了解你們現在立法進度可是一問好像不是很確定啊那再來還有一個比較大的問題喔這個我還是想要請問一下"},{"start":7414.502,"end":7441.154,"text":"你們有沒有去統計明確的去了解說到底多少從業人員是高度依賴也就是全職在做還是有多少比例是這個兼職因為我告訴你我在研究的時候是有發現不同的觀點不同的數據所以我想要請問勞動部有沒有確實做到這件事因為這也是未來雙方爭吵的點或者是希望真正保障到的是哪一些人"},{"start":7442.615,"end":7467.714,"text":"我們現在確實在數據上面看到是兼職是比較多的那大概有到數據大概七成又多了一個新數字喔我跟你說這又多了一個新數字所以這你可能要去多掌握如果是七成的話那就代表說高度依賴是三成那也有看過四成六成那也有看過 因為它會浮動當然但也有看過六成四成可是也有平台業者說只有一成"},{"start":7469.045,"end":7483.539,"text":"所以這個東西就是你們要去因為這樣看起來沒有完全的研究我覺得你這樣子對於勞工的保障我會有擔憂啦因為包含平台業者宣稱因為包含平台業者宣稱說他們的時薪是高達270"},{"start":7485.18,"end":7510.732,"text":"所以不知道部長認不認同他們有高到270的時薪說平均喔時薪我想這都不是哪一方對所以我要表達的就是你們的數據掌握基本上很精準公開透明如果要算出來的平均薪資的話時薪基本上都要有清楚的計算基礎所以現在你們有嗎不是哪一方自己宣稱是什麼數字就是什麼數字所以因為你們是主管機關我相信你們的數據更精準"},{"start":7511.312,"end":7536.223,"text":"所以我們希望說這個部分可不可以請部長也可以提供給本席辦公室你們目前有的研究數據因為這很重要是官方數據這也有關乎於未來在討論的時候可以有一個明確的科學客觀理性的去討論不然就會各說各話那不知道部長可不可以提供給本席辦公室我覺得一些相關的資料我們再請我們好那會後提供給本席好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":7538.516,"end":7541.071,"text":"好 謝謝廖瑋祥委員 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8270.966,"end":8280.392,"text":"繼續開會 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長要請洪部長黃委員早"},{"start":8289.912,"end":8306.506,"text":"部長好部長因為今天的這個議題是很多外送員關心的那我想請教就是說因為現在的這個外送員他可能想要這個隨時想要跑想要兼差就兼差那也不需要打卡"},{"start":8307.347,"end":8333.255,"text":"就是想要兼職就兼職那未来会不会因为这个立这个专法之后那因为我们看到之前的法院的这个判例就是雇佣关系那会不会我们未来立了这个专法之后会变成有了想要兼职兼差的人可能会有一些受限我们不希望发生这样的事情是所以我们会怎么做"},{"start":8335.22,"end":8358.093,"text":"刚刚委员提到当然就是在于劳动关系上面的认定就是要认定他是雇佣还是承揽那的确雇佣还是承揽现在各方还是有不太一样的意见所以我们基本上我们会比较认为是不是我们就把外送员目前他需要得到的权益的保障比方说保险的保障比方说"},{"start":8359.213,"end":8384.697,"text":"報酬的保障比方說契約上面的保障很明確的把它放到法裡面去保障用這個方式就好那不一定一定是直接在法裡面直接的定性他是雇佣或者是承攬那未來就是說因為法院之前有幾個案例他的那個判例就是說是雇佣關係嘛那未來我們這個專法例了之後會不會有一些矛盾的地方"},{"start":8386.347,"end":8390.433,"text":"因為現在法院也有不一定"},{"start":8391.095,"end":8419.005,"text":"有不同的判決啦所以當然法院怎麼判我們還是我們必須尊重法院在個案上面的判定可是實際上面我們還是認為我們必須綜合的考慮然後思考這一整個對於外送員保障的制度權益該怎麼做這樣子那部長我想請教就是說有時候外送員他因為如果是雇傭關係的話如果說以勞基法的話可能就有最低薪資嘛"},{"start":8419.785,"end":8429.123,"text":"那如果像這樣子的話就是說你覺得外送員他的最基本的薪資報酬是多少部長你覺得怎樣才是合理"},{"start":8430.937,"end":8453.887,"text":"當然我們作為法規的主管機關的話我們是希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障那至少這個最低的保障是要高於最低工資的比方說最低工資的時薪那這可能每一單不是整體而是每一單平均下來他是要超過最低工資的時薪那這比較能夠符合大家對於"},{"start":8455.488,"end":8483.19,"text":"所謂薪資或者是報酬保障的概念那我們也希望就是說這個薪資的報酬的這個部分應該是要更透明化就是說應該要更透明化讓所有的這個外送員他在跑單的時候他可以知道就是我接多少單我大約可以這個報酬大約是多少我覺得未來我們立這個專法之後我覺得應該是這個應該也可以要求就是說這個薪資報酬應該是要更透明"},{"start":8483.59,"end":8511.307,"text":"是因为我们其实也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像"},{"start":8511.887,"end":8537.99,"text":"他跑了一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的權益報酬的部分應該是要更透明另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼"},{"start":8539.911,"end":8560.11,"text":"譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加諸在這個外送員的報酬裡面也許你在跑這個單的時候或者這段時間這幾天在跑單的時候就會因為我們這個平台有做這樣的一個活動"},{"start":8560.811,"end":8589.043,"text":"那你的報酬可能也會有一些影響那我想請教就是說像類似這樣平台在做活動或優惠的這個期間是不是也可以保障就是說這些外送員他的權益是不會受到他們平台自己本身在做活動然後受到影響其實現在剛剛委員講的部分在交貨指引上面其實我們的指引在我們的指引上面其實就有規定了那"},{"start":8590.103,"end":8605.279,"text":"也就是說這個平台的促銷不應該是變成是外送人在承擔承擔這個所謂的優惠或者是什麼的不應該是外送人來負擔那所以這也是為什麼我們希望是整體性的考慮他的整體性的報酬因為"},{"start":8606.44,"end":8625.593,"text":"外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度是思考的原因那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法"},{"start":8626.153,"end":8651.482,"text":"未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台未來會不會也是有這樣的一個專法我覺得各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態"},{"start":8652.742,"end":8677.09,"text":"那未來也有可能不同樣態立不同樣不一樣的這個專法所以我覺得部長可能你們要立這個專法之後可能也要再去想一下也許未來不一樣的職業別然後不一樣的這個樣態也會需要立這樣的一個專法有沒有可能跟文說明其實文講的是其實是直直一個核心就是說"},{"start":8678.57,"end":8705.322,"text":"的確過去在做部會分工的時候也是考慮到那未來可能還有多少樣態會怎麼去做分工所以其實在相關的部會分工裡面的挑戰會比傳統的一些業務來得多但我們其實也是考慮到確實這些新興的經濟經營的型態的確在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括"},{"start":8707.11,"end":8711.061,"text":"我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成"},{"start":8712.418,"end":8738.905,"text":"平台跟外送人之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們也其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是"},{"start":8739.665,"end":8753.642,"text":"部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說欣欣的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工"},{"start":8757.005,"end":8781.841,"text":"照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法"},{"start":8782.521,"end":8803.109,"text":"好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣"},{"start":8805.737,"end":8823.068,"text":"報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在栽保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考"},{"start":8825.13,"end":8841.219,"text":"我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也還要再去想怎麼樣讓它更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益"},{"start":8842.634,"end":8867.629,"text":"其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實這是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久"},{"start":8869.49,"end":8888.595,"text":"會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都會我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮這樣子好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":8904.49,"end":8908.738,"text":"主席麻煩勞動部紅部長跟交通部的陳次長請紅部長跟次長"},{"start":8914.983,"end":8934.108,"text":"另外一位很早兩位好因為今天排審我們的外送專法的一個詢談我有幾個問題要來做提醒跟討論那針對外送平台的爭議我上個會期就曾經跟外送公會跟總公會跟各縣市的公會一起召開記者會譴責平台業者片面"},{"start":8934.708,"end":8951.794,"text":"宣布要調整的那個計籌的那個規範 漠視外送員的勞動權益 當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價的一個規則和勞動契約這相關的法制作業就是希望主管機關能夠有效的"},{"start":8952.714,"end":8962.846,"text":"能夠管理外送平台的業者跟保障外送員的權益想先問次長你現在的汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運的運價的準則什麼進度什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":8969.153,"end":8982.966,"text":"是 我跟委員報告有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則我們大概跟很多的相關的關係人不管是工會也好 消費者也好大家都有討論那也都會有一支的公司是 大家就是什麼時候送價那我想我們會在這個"},{"start":8988.33,"end":9008.726,"text":"為什麼我們這麼關心我們的運價規則因為這涉及到外送員的一個報酬結構如果不夠透明的話沒有明確計算公式就會讓外送員無從估算到真正應得的報酬並且很容易就發生爭議因此我們運費明訂後至少我們可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益"},{"start":9010.407,"end":9021.259,"text":"因為我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色因為我覺得洪部長很用心那我想問部長說勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範上如果運費訂好之後有沒有進一步的討論"},{"start":9024.196,"end":9042.903,"text":"因為現在交通部應該是可以透過他的公路法來相關的執法來定後續的運費運價然後定運價那因為交通部的運價比較是處理的事情是這個跟消費者就是說避免消費者的權益"},{"start":9043.243,"end":9066.43,"text":"那這個怕運價定的太高那上限的部分那勞動部這邊可以注意的就會是下限的部分就是避免這個平台給外送員的報酬過低那透過這個這幾個層面的把關可以把外送員的報酬其實可以把關在一定的範圍裡面這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論我們去設計這個制度的概念"},{"start":9067.43,"end":9092.126,"text":"服務的基本流程 派單的一個機制跟資訊的接受 如果遇到爭議的時候 那申訴跟救濟制度的話 勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被"},{"start":9094.028,"end":9116.214,"text":"這被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次"},{"start":9119.595,"end":9133.531,"text":"這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤"},{"start":9134.192,"end":9163.468,"text":"如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看"},{"start":9165.068,"end":9187.017,"text":"跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候外送平台他提供要給外送員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課可是如果要到山上去他最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰那另外還有時間跟地點"},{"start":9188.017,"end":9214.336,"text":"我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不應該由外送員來做這樣一個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有訂好我認為顧客的權益 平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把它納入去做考量"},{"start":9215.397,"end":9238.263,"text":"而部長 氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去"},{"start":9238.743,"end":9267.177,"text":"真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎"},{"start":9269.377,"end":9284.731,"text":"跟委員說明基本上的確這也是很多外生源反應的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該要建立有效的申訴機制這有效申訴機制甚至我們都認為平台應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的執行裡面其實有訂定"},{"start":9285.612,"end":9308.14,"text":"就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來"},{"start":9308.78,"end":9328.531,"text":"的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中"},{"start":9328.931,"end":9352.098,"text":"所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的"},{"start":9352.478,"end":9369.538,"text":"一个调查以职业安全卫生设施对照来看的话包括车辆安全的检核教育训练预防措施等都存在相当高的比例没有去做所以这边我们大家就也收到外送员的一些抱怨就来问两"},{"start":9370.239,"end":9384.855,"text":"就是部長跟次長請看這張圖啦這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概17.8%是因為"},{"start":9387.918,"end":9413.026,"text":"分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎"},{"start":9417.501,"end":9433.532,"text":"確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長"},{"start":9437.692,"end":9463.783,"text":"對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其事實上大家也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入"},{"start":9464.483,"end":9485.704,"text":"老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益"},{"start":9486.445,"end":9502.766,"text":"最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨"},{"start":9503.687,"end":9530.692,"text":"那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中"},{"start":9533.132,"end":9541.781,"text":"可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝謝謝林岳群委員發言請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":9555.382,"end":9578.503,"text":"謝謝主席那我也呼籲剛剛林衛詢委員最後期待召委這邊如果針對於這個專法那麼重要還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清需要有更多的這些意見會請進來的話那也許委員會開個公聽會也是一個適當的做法這個就麻煩召委再作予考量"},{"start":9580.485,"end":9584.508,"text":"謝謝主席能夠召開今天的這個會議那請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":9592.858,"end":9616.731,"text":"是我想大家對於這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障"},{"start":9617.691,"end":9640.3,"text":"那我們也知道越來有越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引"},{"start":9640.9,"end":9667.932,"text":"在這個指引裡面其實第8點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰"},{"start":9670.279,"end":9698.926,"text":"報告委員 確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八"},{"start":9701.548,"end":9721.082,"text":"這樣對保障來講就是一個很大的進步其實民進黨團也有一個草案這個草案裡面在第11條也把外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎"},{"start":9722.376,"end":9746.591,"text":"當然好 太好了我們就持續的來為這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會涵括到哪一些需要通報的重點"},{"start":9747.612,"end":9762.627,"text":"那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考"},{"start":9764.319,"end":9787.621,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平臺業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面"},{"start":9788.422,"end":9812.435,"text":"其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话"},{"start":9813.837,"end":9825.344,"text":"就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的"},{"start":9826.328,"end":9846.191,"text":"好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完成那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是"},{"start":9847.432,"end":9875.424,"text":"那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循"},{"start":9876.204,"end":9904.985,"text":"那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體的來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法"},{"start":9907.289,"end":9924.722,"text":"現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱危害那這個高溫熱危害其實就在一般的作業比較營造作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備"},{"start":9925.563,"end":9942.052,"text":"那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是"},{"start":9942.577,"end":9957.883,"text":"是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在"},{"start":9959.924,"end":9982.439,"text":"那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望"},{"start":9982.899,"end":10010.056,"text":"未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計"},{"start":10011.894,"end":10028.096,"text":"跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫啦因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":10029.838,"end":10048.915,"text":"那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合治安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個"},{"start":10050.536,"end":10065.956,"text":"包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的責任法的51支1條其實很關鍵他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展"},{"start":10066.776,"end":10093.953,"text":"是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法"},{"start":10096.035,"end":10121.735,"text":"讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子"},{"start":10122.355,"end":10149.175,"text":"好 最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道民航局跟其他的航空公司針對於我們曾經在近期討論過的航姐她帶來的生命的因為不利請假造成的影響"},{"start":10150.797,"end":10164.612,"text":"做了一些调整 达成了四项学义我们觉得很感谢劳动部部长这方面的努力可是我们不希望说一个行业一位同仁因为有这样的问题"},{"start":10165.353,"end":10187.705,"text":"就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等"},{"start":10188.385,"end":10201.278,"text":"那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為"},{"start":10202.662,"end":10229.433,"text":"跟委員說明上禮拜五勞工部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的"},{"start":10230.253,"end":10257.164,"text":"不利對待或者請病假會被請多考核認為是多我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是多所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子"},{"start":10258.204,"end":10283.934,"text":"好 如果有研議的報告 可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做反考好 謝謝部長好 謝謝高偉謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":10290.117,"end":10314.08,"text":"林委員好部長今天討論這個平台經濟商業模式下大概如何保障這個外送員的權益在這種狀況我們看到說從2012年這個Full Panda進入台灣開始然後2015年的Uber Eats加入以後大概從業人員至今大概有十幾萬了吧是多少"},{"start":10318.37,"end":10334.099,"text":"17萬人 四家加起來就你了解你認為近年台灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台的服務的興起有沒有相關"},{"start":10337.007,"end":10366.287,"text":"当然外送也成为现在一些劳工去做兼职的选项特别是年轻劳工我们的劳动力已经大幅下降而年轻的劳动力都去从事外送平台的服务的工作现在有17万人而且都是年轻的劳动力也不止年轻劳动力居多那你觉得这个跟我们这个产业缺工会不会有相关"},{"start":10368.489,"end":10373.213,"text":"就是這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項而且低門檻對"},{"start":10375.427,"end":10401.918,"text":"所以你不敢回答有沒有相關我認為你們也是要去正視這個問題即便有相關那也不是外送員的錯但我現在講一些說其實Foodpanda的營運總監他曾經自己說產業缺工跟外送員的增減沒有直接關係而是大家要去對於彈性工時的工作的接受度提高"},{"start":10402.558,"end":10422.916,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去的那一代過去老幾個世代完全不一樣的我要彈性工作這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對如果大家都選擇要彈性工作如果大家都不想要被綁在一個"},{"start":10424.577,"end":10445.491,"text":"這個專職的工作裡面 不是藍領階級包括白領階級 我敢說包括我們的立法院包括助理群 而包括專業的有證照的專業人士大家都想要更彈性的工作甚至連公務人員大家都不想來考試了"},{"start":10447.993,"end":10473.238,"text":"在這種狀況裡面勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高未來台灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估有沒有整體的產業結構變化的情境的推估有沒有"},{"start":10474.956,"end":10491.51,"text":"跟委員說明其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解台灣未來勞動力的發展的趨勢裡面的確有看到尤其是年輕的世代他們對於在工作裡面的彈性的需求是越來越高那也希望更多的可以兼顧"},{"start":10492.791,"end":10510.374,"text":"他的工作跟他的生活的需求這個彈性的期待是可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況這個事情是我們有看出來的所以這的確是接下來我們有很多的產業跟職場他在設計上面我覺得會是一個蠻大的挑戰"},{"start":10511.948,"end":10532.278,"text":"這樣講太空了 這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化"},{"start":10539.781,"end":10561.688,"text":"你不能只講這一句話 對不對我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候它裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題"},{"start":10563.004,"end":10588.072,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來協助這些產業把法尊該做的法尊跟保障要做到我聽你這樣講不行 為什麼因為牛步化 這些等你討論完了其實這個問題都已經非常嚴重了所以你們牛步化而現在這是現在進行式而且如火如荼的進行式大家都想要彈性工作而上個禮拜四我們的院長端出了一個全國勞動力總檢討政策"},{"start":10591.453,"end":10608.838,"text":"他討論的是未來的這個移工的引進的速度 數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去宣示了這樣一個政策然後他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業"},{"start":10612.859,"end":10617.563,"text":"他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只"},{"start":10635.64,"end":10658.334,"text":"只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策"},{"start":10659.948,"end":10676.264,"text":"可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重"},{"start":10678.328,"end":10705.649,"text":"更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了"},{"start":10707.31,"end":10723.767,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下"},{"start":10724.738,"end":10743.514,"text":"跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考"},{"start":10744.448,"end":10768.755,"text":"不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓它是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工"},{"start":10769.955,"end":10797.058,"text":"大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說很多各種產業缺工狀況很嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動"},{"start":10798.499,"end":10819.733,"text":"你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對"},{"start":10821.035,"end":10849.272,"text":"我现在要跟你讲更严重的事情就是我在讲过的我说那个记者他把调查报告交给美国的这个非营利劳权团体叫Transparent然后他这里有一篇就是揭穿台湾纺织业强迫劳动这里面也有受访这个Transparent这个透明组织他们去访谈了90多名的越南菲律宾印尼亚泰国移工"},{"start":10850.132,"end":10875.84,"text":"這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費、服務費、防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等"},{"start":10876.42,"end":10893.792,"text":"扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":10896.514,"end":10920.809,"text":"調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌"},{"start":10921.71,"end":10938.1,"text":"大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫"},{"start":10942.563,"end":10968.996,"text":"那Pentagonia他就講還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行"},{"start":10971.897,"end":10987.191,"text":"雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去"},{"start":10991.014,"end":11016.601,"text":"你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管所以在這種狀況裡面政府說 買工費不允許可是人家就是存債那你現在政府不訂法律不修改法律不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼"},{"start":11017.964,"end":11032.97,"text":"看到了政府怠忽職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":11035.371,"end":11059.184,"text":"這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩"},{"start":11060.285,"end":11088.291,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範它不是因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管"},{"start":11089.246,"end":11111.934,"text":"但是現在就是最終 你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業 不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些 他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況 當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了"},{"start":11112.754,"end":11120.136,"text":"政府要扛起責任否則台灣從人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌"},{"start":11135.101,"end":11157.594,"text":"Made in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王育民一直看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝"},{"start":11166.215,"end":11191.328,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員發言請陳瑩委員發言現在主席麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長"},{"start":11202,"end":11222.773,"text":"陳委員好部長好我們今天要討論外送員勞動權益保障法的草案我想先請教部長勞動部支不支持這樣子的勞權保障專法的制定我們當然現在我們是支持要進一步的法制化也就是定專法好"},{"start":11224.15,"end":11251.219,"text":"就是一定要專法才能夠保障到到這些外送員嗎還是說我們現有的法令是不足無法保障到他們我們其實現在有訂定了執法訂定了指引跟包括跟交通部其實有訂定的指引但當然訂定專法能夠處理到的面向包括其實可能更廣泛或他的法效也更強"},{"start":11253.032,"end":11263.734,"text":"好 謝謝那我們辦公室最近有盤點了一下就是近期外送員交通意外事故的統計資料有發現幾個現象我們來看一下"},{"start":11265.286,"end":11293.293,"text":"目前最及時更新的是台北市更新到114年8月底意外件數的累積有達到661件外送員受傷的人數是336位新北市政府的最新統計他們是統計到6月份件數是52件受傷人數是68人台中市也統計到114年的第一劑"},{"start":11295.314,"end":11321.423,"text":"我們再回頭看看勞動部你們的食品平台外送員的勞動權益保障專區更新的日期是113年2月16號好像你們已經很久很久都沒有關心這一群17萬名的外送員了我不曉得針對這樣的日期部長有沒有什麼補充說明"},{"start":11323.523,"end":11338.335,"text":"跟村說明我並不是我沒有關其實我一直到近期都還跟外送人其實開了好幾次的會所以並不是當然我們可能資料更新可以更頻繁跟更及時但是並不是我們沒有關係我我們這幾個月我自己就跟外送人真的"},{"start":11339.156,"end":11352.851,"text":"就討論了好幾次我相信部長絕對是有關心的啦但是你們的更新日期是離現在根本就是超過一年半以前這個就有點漏氣這個我們來加強"},{"start":11355.885,"end":11382.278,"text":"好那當然就是說關西斯王厚偉師長在114年3月14日呢他有主持了一個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台的第10次的會議那第9次的會議是在113年的12月13日那我想要請教一下下一次會議預計什麼時候召開然後要討論什麼樣的議題"},{"start":11385.826,"end":11406.399,"text":"是跟委員報告之前我們就想透過這樣的一個平台會議兩方可以大家來交換意見我們也開了非常多次雖然有得到一些成果但是後來慢慢發現工會也表達是說平台在那個會議中能夠承諾跟答應的事項越來越少因為我們談的事項越來越接近像報酬"},{"start":11407.119,"end":11433.491,"text":"像停權這個比較重大的一些事由那平台都保持一個保留跟拒絕的態度因為沒有任何的法律的工具所以後來我們大概的方向就是就不透過那個交換平台的方式來做一些會議所以以後就不開了我們現在目前是暫時然後想透過法治化的方式比較有明確的保障好 那我想再請教一下現在各縣市外送員的工會總共成立了多少個"},{"start":11436.942,"end":11456.856,"text":"因為我們有統計因為外送員加入的工會有很多類型你說你們有統計還是沒有統計因為我們有統計的時候我們發現因為外送員加入的方式類型非常多我們沒有辦法就是列出哪一些是只有他會加入的因為有的是食品有的是商品有的是機車因為他可以加入工會有非常多種"},{"start":11458.178,"end":11473.713,"text":"並不代表說只是上面寫外送員有三個字的他才可以加入所以我們有統計過那個可以的工會也把那些工會放在我們的那個勞動部的網站上讓我們的外送員可以選擇去加入"},{"start":11475.106,"end":11490.752,"text":"所以你说的你要不要举例一下外送员的公会我们在我们的网站上有就是有所有他们可以加入的外送的职业工会跟产业工会都有但你们列出来有几个"},{"start":11491.312,"end":11508.141,"text":"我印象中大概有40到50個40到50個那現在就是說這四五十個的這個會員人數占實際從業人員的多少比是多少比跟委員報告其實因為這個數字在地方政府那我們後來發現這數字不完全是因為"},{"start":11509.281,"end":11525.008,"text":"兼職的他不會跑到職業公會去投保他平常白天有一份自己的正職工作所以統計出來那個會員人數有時候跟實際上從事外送的人員人數不見得那麼接近那我接下來要請教你這個問題就看你們"},{"start":11527.929,"end":11552.506,"text":"有沒有好好的統計喔就是在你們專區第一件事情就是要幫助外送員那如何界定這個承攬派遣僱傭的關係因為不同的關係有不同的這個權益保障所以目前的這些從業人員當中呢這三種就是不同關係的人數各是多少比例然後這些比例都是沒有爭議的嗎"},{"start":11555.327,"end":11575.966,"text":"其實外送員的勞動關係一直是在這裡面很特殊的一個源頭就是他到底屬於僱傭還是屬於承攬那當然平台會一直主張是承攬可是我們基本上現在我們也不會說他是一種單純的承攬所以甚至現在國外也有所謂的中間關係就是在僱傭跟承攬之間"},{"start":11576.747,"end":11602.147,"text":"所以的確我們覺得說以現在的狀況來說的話在僱傭跟承攬之間還有各種不同的看法我們比較主張的事情是把外送員該有的保障的權益用法制化的方式給定清楚比方說報酬的保障比方說停權然後這個契約中止的申訴的保障比方說保險的部分在裡面把它定清楚所以你現在沒有辦法算出就是他"},{"start":11603.288,"end":11620.405,"text":"的這個僱傭這三種的比例不是這比較不是一個計算或統計的問題因為他是直接大家在認定上就有都有不同的看法那我但是僱傭應該是比較清楚"},{"start":11623.331,"end":11634.746,"text":"確實有些外送員去法院訴訟法院的見解也不太一致我們倒是也沒有統計說現在屬於僱傭的外送員有多少人"},{"start":11638.273,"end":11658.52,"text":"好沒關係應該後續會再回頭討論檢查這個問題那同樣的道理就是外送員的職業安全的問題勞動部事實上應該也都有所掌握那相較於113年114年的交通意外件數你們了解的是增加還是減少"},{"start":11662.149,"end":11688.331,"text":"跟委員報告如果是平台業者他接貨外送員他發生災害向我們通報從110年的13人最多逐年下降多少 113年的113年我們掌握是13個人死亡在執行外送的勤務當中到114年目前是5個人死亡"},{"start":11689.445,"end":11703.713,"text":"好但是我想那個交通意外應該不會只看死亡人數啦那全部的件數呢增加還是減少是呈現下降趨勢好的那他們上路前有做教育訓練嗎"},{"start":11705.037,"end":11726.854,"text":"有 現在都有要求 那我想我跟您分享一下就我昨天前天看到的情況那在從立法院回家的路上就是才看到那個外送員就是在那個視訊開著 邊開邊視訊我想這個是很危險的"},{"start":11731.537,"end":11759.569,"text":"要再麻煩你們加強一下這些訓練喔那我們盤點這個結果113年比較確實就是說相較於114年交通意外他確實的確是有減少那就是說這兩大平台目前喔就是看起來Full Panda的件數是比較少的但也有可能是因為"},{"start":11761.429,"end":11785.869,"text":"那個被買走的關係那另外就是說那個交通意外件件數的減少他有可能有可能是代表外送的這個需求減少那也有可能就是說也代表有可能就是外送的需求減少也有可能是物價上漲了那因為這兩年外送食物的價格有沒有上漲部長應該很清楚因為剛"},{"start":11786.75,"end":11805.772,"text":"您刚刚主持那个最低工资审议我们的最低工资可以在2026年可以上涨3.18%跟物价上涨是有一定的关联所以我们从这个例子来看经济的因素跟旨在劳动权益跟劳动力的这个劳动市场流动性有相当大的关系那"},{"start":11808.333,"end":11835.018,"text":"結論本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是要關心外送員的勞動權益之前呢對於這個經濟環境我們也要有相當的研究因此我們要就是說本席要建議你們啟動這個外送員勞動權益影響因子的調查與分析這個研究請你們要著手進行那掌握也比較各縣市的各縣市政府更多更重要的資訊作為你們這個政策規劃的參考"},{"start":11836.55,"end":11857.316,"text":"我想我們很願意聽剛才就是參考委員的意見對於外送員相關的權益尤其是包括安全上面的問題來進行一個調查研究的計畫那更進一步的更清楚的掌握那假設接下來我們要來協助外送員跟協助平台把這些工作做好的話測重的重點應該在哪裡我覺得我們很願意來做這個事情好謝謝謝謝陳穎委員發言請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":11875.68,"end":11876.971,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長請部長"},{"start":11885.738,"end":11908.864,"text":"羅委員早好 部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨 國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來"},{"start":11910.004,"end":11937.136,"text":"這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖"},{"start":11940.199,"end":11961.296,"text":"我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫"},{"start":11962.917,"end":11991.121,"text":"所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊"},{"start":11992.489,"end":12007.191,"text":"面對老保年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題"},{"start":12009.93,"end":12032.72,"text":"簡單來講今天要不是廖偉祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天衛環有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎"},{"start":12034.397,"end":12050.689,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的勞動法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚"},{"start":12051.329,"end":12075.716,"text":"其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多"},{"start":12077.617,"end":12098.958,"text":"一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制"},{"start":12101.964,"end":12128.516,"text":"終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":12131.01,"end":12156.603,"text":"一些權益上面被片面偏更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧"},{"start":12159.875,"end":12183.072,"text":"不好意思 跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思 您知不知道就是過去 過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法"},{"start":12183.939,"end":12210.935,"text":"那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢"},{"start":12212.83,"end":12234.827,"text":"我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛"},{"start":12235.668,"end":12253.45,"text":"說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版"},{"start":12255.287,"end":12282.587,"text":"跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段因為所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者"},{"start":12284.668,"end":12310.532,"text":"有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題"},{"start":12311.252,"end":12329.53,"text":"所以对于契约的规范其实我们应该也要来定定包括一个这个契约该怎么定应该应记载不应记载事项应该在这里面有一个更清楚的范定我想有些外送员是很积极的但演算法以及平台的态度决定了他的生死再积极想接单都不一定有"},{"start":12330.291,"end":12344.865,"text":"這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們"},{"start":12345.706,"end":12371.413,"text":"讲真的我是重度使用者我们大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送员是在整个社会里面撑起我们的生活便利但是这些外送员是在整个没有保障的制度夹缝生存没有制度没有安全没有最低报酬演算法来决定他们的生死所以到底谁能够来帮助到他们"},{"start":12372.353,"end":12383.113,"text":"我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責"},{"start":12385.199,"end":12408.533,"text":"沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為零啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有"},{"start":12409.502,"end":12437.681,"text":"那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變回有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎"},{"start":12438.8,"end":12464.24,"text":"好謝謝羅庭薇委員發言請王玉銘委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":12464.949,"end":12482.976,"text":"部長好部長你剛說外送人員權益專法要三個月才能送進立法院因為還有後面的一些法制你知道三個月是什麼概念嗎三個月之後已經是多久以後的事了明年一月中以後的事一月底"},{"start":12484.198,"end":12510.94,"text":"立法院這個會期已經結束了所以又是要拖到明年的下會期如果要等你們的話要到明年下會期才要開始審議這樣一個專法那我們召委為什麼要今天就已經排了這樣一個專法今天已經在巡打如果召委加快速度的話我們下下禮拜就進入主條了你還在三個月了誰要等你啊"},{"start":12511.821,"end":12540.687,"text":"你這個就是明年才要修法的概念怎麼可能那這樣子拖拖拉拉是真的想要保障這一些外送員的權益還是以拖待變跟委員說明其實我們其實現在就是最後階段的法制作業最後階段為什麼還需要三個月因為這個部長容我提醒包括預告你剛剛的表達前後矛盾剛剛有委員在問你的時候你說你已經跟這些外送員開了很多次的會議是從什麼時候開始"},{"start":12542.482,"end":12569.829,"text":"應該是從6月7月6月就開始開會了然後你到現在版本還長不出來還跟委員會說還要再三個月才要送進來勞動部做事情是這麼的沒有效率嗎而且坦白講討論外送員權益專法也不是今天才開始你自己擔任過立法委員在你擔任立法委員任內你又在未還委員會"},{"start":12571.26,"end":12589.208,"text":"都有相關的討論大家都有一些基本的想法跟概念是他不是一個從零開始的所以為什麼還需要三個月完全沒有辦法接受這跟召委報告如果勞動部是要這樣的態度的話下下禮拜我們就進主條吧"},{"start":12589.628,"end":12615.145,"text":"完全不需要等待啊等待是沒有意義的因為這件事情不可能你現在才開始研議你竟然還要再花三個月的時間也太沒有效率了那如果是這樣子民進黨團昨天在延萊出匆匆忙忙開了一個記者會說他們有擋板了他那麼匆忙做什麼他沒有跟你商量嗎你還要三個月他昨天那麼匆忙的開了記者會拍照說他們有擋板了你們在延萊出"},{"start":12618.98,"end":12638.555,"text":"到底有沒有決心要盡快的通過我以為昨天民進黨黨團很匆忙的開了一個記者會之後代表他跟你們講好了大家現在有共識了因為今天已經在巡打了所以我們要用最快的速度讓這個專法可以完成結果你剛剛的回答是還要三個月後"},{"start":12639.255,"end":12661.96,"text":"跟委員說明沒有決心啦跟委員說明因為現在其實當然朝野都有版本那當然我們也很願意就目前朝野的版本來做討論那當然因為委員也希望我們提出行政部門的版本那我說我們也願意提出行政部門我們也願意盡快但是後去因為行政部門確實跟在委員提案立法院的提案有不太一樣的地方是我們還要經過像預告"},{"start":12664.127,"end":12692.074,"text":"包括法規會的審議包括行政院法規會的審議這裡面會有一些審議不盡然全部都是可以控在勞動部手上的尤其是這裡面還涉及到一些跨部會的職權所以在這裡面所以那你老早就應該要提早上路啦既然你六月份都願意跟外送員就是坐下來談了你怎麼不那個時候就開始你所有的工作在六月份就應該要啟動而不是今天因為國民黨"},{"start":12693.334,"end":12721.299,"text":"我們召委排案之後你從今天開始才要啟動所有的行政作業這個就是你們呆乎職守並不是今天才開始你們不夠重視這件事情我必須坦白講你們不夠重視這個就是事實那進到這個法的內涵剛剛其實你也提到了就是說我們是要保障在他的薪資收入在他的保險在他的這個工作權我們應該都有具體保障事實上這部法不難"},{"start":12722.239,"end":12742.433,"text":"就一些關鍵的部分所以我要問你的態度你同意或不同意現在的這個停權呢是外送平台權力非常大我幫你停權了就停權了完全沒有期限也沒有規範那本席提出來的至少應該要30日的告知並給予經濟補償這個你同意嗎停權就要經濟補償"},{"start":12747.695,"end":12775.295,"text":"因為一般現在是比較是針對終止契約終止契約要經濟補償所以委員的版本是停權就要經濟補償嗎對就是我希望就是如果你提出停權你要提早告知那給予適度的如果加上終止契約就是應該要給予經濟補償因為基本上現在的版本你應該都是如果談到終止契約的部分才會有經濟補償對那30日告知呢你同意嗎"},{"start":12776.417,"end":12797.35,"text":"我想其实提前告知是你们自己心里应该都有个底了吧我们基本上我们是认为第一个停权这件事情的重点是停权的事由要清楚第二个要有申诉明确申诉的机制因为现在遇到的外送人的表达传达的事情是申诉的时候打电话到某个申诉的"},{"start":12798.82,"end":12827.658,"text":"的专线可是那个专线并不是真人的专线所以没有办法这个申诉都会石沉大海所以应该要有专人的回应专人的处理这个我们都同意那他需不需要提前告知如果按照现在平台这么粗暴的做法很多外送员他是有外送他才有收入那你可以就是不提前告知的情况底下你就直接就说"},{"start":12828.799,"end":12849.124,"text":"不給你接單了那他的收入是0那不需要嗎不需要提前告知嗎不需要規範一個期限嗎給他有個心理準備他知道我即將要被停權我可能要去我的支出我可能稍微尊嚴一點或是我要去想我有沒有其他的管道跟方法不需要嗎我覺得提前我覺得我們是可以討論的"},{"start":12850.664,"end":12868.258,"text":"對好但是的確我要說說你剛才在講的這個事情通常是要終止契約部分才會再去討論經濟補償不是在停權這個可以再討論這個可以再討論那另外一個就是他的那個接單費的計算這個我們看到之前這個"},{"start":12870.739,"end":12898.369,"text":"他他擅自更改更改了心智喔他一改呢可能會讓這一個外送員平均一單就少了四成三喔他改了這樣子然後聽說你們勞動部也有介入啊也有去跟平台業者談啊那談了之後我知道的是完全沒有效果啊平台根本不理你啊不理你勞動部啊跟委員說明的確完全沒有辦法去改變他他是把第二單的部分"},{"start":12899.602,"end":12917.575,"text":"他现在是首单是从40块变45块不是50块对这个可以调整但算下来就是钱少很多他的奖励金又没有了他是首前面两单会减少19块他的奖励一倍就直接取消对然后所以他平均他如果这样子算法是少了4乘3"},{"start":12918.82,"end":12948.357,"text":"就是少了19塊啦是少了4乘3所以4乘3在那個情況底下你認為你認為對一個外送員的衝擊不大嗎那讓人家最擔心的是後來你們也有去找平台開會是但是沒有結果是所以這也是為什麼沒有人要理你啊這也是為什麼我們認為如果平台是這樣的態度的話那你不覺得這個專法更應該趕快上路嗎是如果平台是這個如果平台是這個態度的話我們也認為當然法治化是當然有必要的是"},{"start":12948.677,"end":12975.093,"text":"是啊 所以這個就是為什麼現在這麼多委員有共識嘛跟黨團有共識應該就是要立專法嘛不然就是讓平台予取予求啊他連你主管機關都不理你了那更何況這一些外送員他用自己的聲音跟力量怎麼去對抗這個平台的大怪獸他沒有辦法 那個權力是極度的不對等喔所以這個部分 我拜託你喔你這個三個月是太誇張了請趕快跟上腳步好嗎"},{"start":12976.033,"end":12988.081,"text":"另外一個我要提的是我要問你的態度賴清德總統說請一個如果有一個小孩就可以申請一個移工這件事情勞動部要同意嗎"},{"start":12990.062,"end":13011.568,"text":"之前在討論80歲以上免申請巴士量表的時候你講了非常多理由這個人口暴增來源國不足啊嚴重排擠啊那現在賴清德總統提一個小孩就可以一個移工不是更不足嗎不是來源國會更不足嗎你敢不敢反對總統你敢不敢告訴他真實的確是在評估中"},{"start":13012.679,"end":13040.945,"text":"所以你同意了並不是簡單的同意不同意那你為什麼之前80歲以上這個老人家那麼老了免巴士量表你一堆反對的理由那賴總統講說一個小孩就要請一個移工你就可以評估我們在政策評估中對啊所以你一切是看上意啊對不對如果按照你之前反對80歲以上這個外籍工免巴士量表的理由的話放到賴總統提出來這個政策那你更應該反對到底如果你立場一致的話"},{"start":13041.445,"end":13066.001,"text":"我是希望我們討論任何政策不要看顏色了就是真的是依專業來評估專業評估就會有一致性不會因為是誰提出來而任意去更改我希望賴總統這樣子講要慎重的評估兩個小孩比較合理一個小孩就請一個移工聽起來真的是不太合理移工的量恐怕也沒那麼大我們在整體評估中然後包括相關的配套謝謝"},{"start":13069.032,"end":13094.841,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員發言請黃國昌委員發言謝謝召委首先在開始邀請列席的行政官員上來備詢以前我有個會議詢問"},{"start":13096.793,"end":13124.686,"text":"想要先詢問一下趙偉第一個事情是我先代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團感謝趙偉今天排審這個外送員權益專法因為過去太長的時間當中我們看到每天在馬路上吹風淋雨的這些年輕人他們的心聲但我們一直在等我們一直在等"},{"start":13126.192,"end":13152.463,"text":"等到要拖到什麼時候我們才能夠處理這個專法我相信韋翔也記得我們那時候一起在台中大街小巷的時候不管是庭委不管是韋翔我們在馬路上看到那麼多年輕人跟我們揮手我們答應他們我們說到的事情我們會做到"},{"start":13153.689,"end":13167.606,"text":"所以我先感謝廖召偉今天終於讓這個法案有開始審理的機會但我看了今天的整個議程我覺得很困惑因為今天排審的"},{"start":13169.468,"end":13198.099,"text":"有委員侯孟凱21人擬聚有台灣民眾黨黨團擬聚有委員羅廷維擬聚有委員王一鳴擬聚有委員王宏威擬聚有委員楊瓊英擬聚總共排了6萬我看了半天以後 趙偉你們是不是作業有疏忽啊民進黨立法院黨團昨天不是大動作說他們提出了最好的版本你怎麼沒有把這個最好的版本一起今天排審"},{"start":13199.714,"end":13213.308,"text":"現在這個到底是怎麼回事因為我們在野黨不要讓公民誤會說民進黨立法院黨團在沉睡了幾年以後昨天突然提出了最好的版本卻沒有把它排審上來"},{"start":13214.741,"end":13229.917,"text":"回答黃國昌委員因為民進黨團的版本還沒有送到院會裡面來蛤 到現在都還沒有送來還沒有 對喔 好 那這樣子我了解了不是啦 這種事情一定要公開講清楚嘛要不然有很多外送員朋友大家會覺得很困惑嘛"},{"start":13230.518,"end":13247.321,"text":"不要造成這樣子的困惑我覺得會比較好啦好謝謝謝謝召委來現在有請勞動部部長洪森漢交通部次長陳彥博數位發展部次長葉寧那以及經濟部只有經濟部有人來嗎"},{"start":13249.9,"end":13277.641,"text":"現在經濟部有人在嗎經濟部是商業發展署的副署長是是是 請也跟黃委員說一下剛剛這個速發部的次長他說他有會議所以現在在現場的是副署長黃亞平OK好 沒有關係黃委員好再請我們洪部長以前我先請問一下其他主管機關因為剛剛所有人都關心"},{"start":13278.98,"end":13294.427,"text":"行政院有沒有版本什麼時候要送到立法院來剛剛洪部長在回答其他委員備詢的時候其實也講得很清楚這件事情有部裡面可以努力的地方都要送到行政院"},{"start":13295.467,"end":13323.624,"text":"行政院什麼時候會出來其實也不知道因為我在世大法治委員會這種狀況我遇過很多法務部部長常常跟我講他很無奈說法務部的版本早就送到行政院了但行政院很忙忙得不得了通常一個部的版本送到行政院裡面睡個一年兩年沒有什麼下文在目前的狀態下面其實已經成為常態"},{"start":13324.785,"end":13342.617,"text":"那個例子不生沒舉但是我們對於外送員權益的保障我們對於這些年輕人的承諾是絕對不可能去考慮說勞動部的版本什麼時候要送出來送出來以後到行政院裡面又要睡多久"},{"start":13343.359,"end":13360.976,"text":"但為了加速接下來可能時間的進行能夠加速一點各個部會是不是贊成很重要啊要不然勞動部會勞工的權益在前面衝後面其他的部會在扯後腿這樣不好啊所以來先從"},{"start":13362.437,"end":13386.926,"text":"現在因為行政院院會有指定有關外送平台專責的機關是交通部嗎簡要回答第一個針對訂定這個外送員權益的專法交通部贊不贊成我們交通部支持支持嘛來第二個經濟部經濟部支不支持支持嘛好速發部支不支持"},{"start":13388.7,"end":13413.09,"text":"作發部也支持那顯然就不是其他部會扯後腿的問題嘛其他部會都支持啊 後衛你有沒有聽到有嘛其他部會都支持嘛大家都支持啊 非常好那剛剛部長說啊說勞動部這邊大概還要三個月的時間來作業嘛三個月內 非常好那三個月內我希望內快一點啊因為"},{"start":13414.249,"end":13436.649,"text":"我基本上 從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我會強力的要求中國國民黨黨團 朝我對你沒有不敬強力的要求中國國民黨黨團這個法案要往前推 年底以前完成三讀這是我們的政治目標 我們一起努力不管勞動部要多久 行政院要多久現在有個關鍵的問題是說"},{"start":13438.47,"end":13444.939,"text":"你們在訂所謂的勞動部版本或行政院版本的過程當中相關的工會代表可不可以邀請來參與"},{"start":13447.386,"end":13475.605,"text":"定版本就在炒你版本的過程當中聽取大家的意見的時候相關工會的代表可不可以來當然啊當然可以嘛因為我是今天來的時候就是有工會的代表來跟我反映他說民進黨好像這一兩天可能是在黨的平台不關行政院的事啦找了很多工會說要去討論那個版本的內容"},{"start":13476.405,"end":13504.708,"text":"那民進黨願意這樣子做但是他就覺得說但是他沒有受邀啦但是他希望在政府的平台上因為政府平台上就不應該有黨派之別嘛所以呢在勞動部或是行政院的平台上面要這些相關的工會代表來參與的時候不會因為不同的工會有大小眼啊為什麼會大小眼不會 當然不會 絕對不會嘛當然不會 非常好其實他要的只有這個答案 非常好"},{"start":13505.769,"end":13525.917,"text":"我們接下來來看台灣民眾黨黨團其實我們從上一屆國會的時候在鄉林委員他就早就提出來了但那個時候沒有辦法那個時候勞動部沒有要推因為勞動部說什麼勞動部說訂專法有一定的難度我相信現在這個困難應該克服了"},{"start":13527.369,"end":13538.611,"text":"克服不少克服不少嘛繼續努力啦趕快克服啦因為我剛剛態度表明得很清楚這個法案在繼續向前走的過程當中"},{"start":13539.81,"end":13566.521,"text":"我們不會等我們不會等早一點進來有行政部門的聲音絕對是好事至於說法條裡面具體的各個設計包括了大家其實最關心的是因為經濟部的代表今天關心的事情是有很多小吃店有很多商家頭很痛被抽成抽很多我煮一個便當我賣一個牛腩堡100塊"},{"start":13570.05,"end":13581.485,"text":"結果裡面如果有三四十塊被平台業者抽走那接下來他們要怎麼活第二個事情是從外送員的角度也是一樣送了以後我們外送員薪資的計算"},{"start":13583.595,"end":13611.752,"text":"高度不透明那也是導致我們年輕朋友常常出來抗議的理由我相信這些聲音你們在過去研議的過程當中都聽到那針對這些相關具體法案實際上面設計的內容終於有機會可以真槍實彈的開始進行討論了我希望接下來在這個法案在這個委員會推進的過程當中能夠一切順利"},{"start":13612.852,"end":13634.846,"text":"主席站起來了我下面的PPT我會另外再用時間找其他的時間部長有機會來委員會的時候我再進一步請教我簡單回應委員我們自己覺得外送人員的這個專法是很可以朝野合作來把它共同完成那也會對外送人的權益會跨出蠻大的一步我們很樂意用這個態度來積極的來參與好很好謝謝"},{"start":13642.169,"end":13668.17,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員發言顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在請林國成委員發言我想謝謝召委請洪部長請洪部長後圍市長要不要來協助一下"},{"start":13670.339,"end":13695.223,"text":"林委員好 請司長我們打開創戶收量化部長 任何一個勞工立專法 確確實實有他一定的困難這個我想也沒有必要去閃抖其實委員非常清楚對 立專法 但是沒辦法"},{"start":13697.463,"end":13715.475,"text":"時代的歧視所趨國際的方向也是這樣所以不得不立這個專法那我看到今天有關單位我要特別也要肯定我們勞動部在這段時間也廣增各界的意見"},{"start":13716.656,"end":13737.652,"text":"但是虽有不足但是我还是建议洪部长要多听听基层工会以及从业人员的新增这样定出来的话是对劳工才会有所保障所以我觉得我们台湾民众党其实我们提的版本是很早"},{"start":13738.513,"end":13753.585,"text":"我們很早我們也看到國民黨幾位委員提出來的版本也不錯可是我看看昨天民進黨要提出這些里程計算方式這就是很複雜了"},{"start":13754.786,"end":13776.16,"text":"這很複雜所以我還是要建議我們洪部長在這裡大家都從事勞工運動的彼此之間的作法以及彼此之間的勞工的需求我們一目了然所以在這個部分我要特別啟齊洪部長跟有關單位特別因為當初"},{"start":13778.021,"end":13804.995,"text":"我不曉得為什麼把這種外送平台交給交通部其實勞動權利應該是勞動部來管所以這個應該大家趕快因為我看各部會都持有正面的態度肯定的態度所以我還是希望除了感謝我們召委排這個人以外我也希望洪部長趕快管在這裡"},{"start":13807.256,"end":13811.608,"text":"我特別跟部長要提供其實15萬的被"},{"start":13814.042,"end":13837.41,"text":"被這種平台剝削這個我也不需要再講那另外一個就是平台它的不透明抽帳不透明這個部分確確實實要把它放進去彼此之間算是平台是支方但是我們外送員是勞方但這兩個當中當然要有一個平台"},{"start":13838.05,"end":13865.042,"text":"要有一個公平透明的機制那現在問題呢問題就沒有所以在這個部分我還是要建議我們部長跟我們師長在這個部分多聽聽業者多聽聽我們勞工的聲音我想這樣的話會比較好那我也要拜託我們勞動部但是我在這裡真的要跟部長建議第一個"},{"start":13866.192,"end":13892.755,"text":"也就是希望多參考台灣民眾黨的版本我們已經發現到單軌是不能解決問題所以我們的版本本來就設計勞工雙軌制度所以這個部分一定要去考慮那到底單軌跟雙軌這個雙軌的部分也就是我們大家所講的"},{"start":13893.676,"end":13922.668,"text":"企業工的問題也就是說跟他有一年一企業的過程當中他的勞保到底要在職業工會保或者要在公司保這個要把它理清楚特別提醒我們部長這個部分最好以現在的情況來講應該這個制度是雙軌制是對這個專法是最有幫助根文說明其實現在提出來的六個版本那包括民進黨團的版本"},{"start":13924.129,"end":13946.532,"text":"我都非常熟悉我都看過甚至業務單位也都做了分析所以這些版本我們都會綜合來參考其實這些版本的方向其實大致上都是一致的只是在做法上在技術上面可能有不同做法上面的差別但方向上我們認為都是相當一致的"},{"start":13946.912,"end":13970.9,"text":"都是希望對外送員對消費者尤其是對於這個合作的商家有更多權益上面的保護所以我還特別提醒也就是雙軌制也就是點出來本來平台的員工跟外送的員工企業工完全會不一樣所以在這個在訂定的時候要把它明確化這樣可能會好最後我們大家都知道"},{"start":13972.18,"end":13988.586,"text":"確保外送員的他的職災勞保薪資保障以及各種的權益勞動三法這等等都要把它涵蓋下去這樣的專法也就是對整個資方跟勞方跟平台"},{"start":13989.346,"end":14010.716,"text":"才是會有幫助的在保險的方面當然我覺得我們都會特別去考慮包括像商業保險尤其是大家最在意安全的問題所以安全的部分就會跟災保會有關係我覺得這幾個部分我想我們都會特別著重來考慮多聽聽平台 多聽聽業者多聽聽消費者消費者就很簡單"},{"start":14011.857,"end":14039.853,"text":"他只要他希望的東西可以安全到達但是勞工的權益確保平台的營運正常這樣的話才是真正一個非常好的兼顧三營的一個專華所以要拜託部長不要等到三個月盡快去做我相信我們王厚為司長他是很積極的只要你一聲令下"},{"start":14040.233,"end":14061.783,"text":"他會做得很快不需要三個月好不好謝謝林國成委員發言本席宣告在待會張其凱委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘休息20分鐘用餐休息後繼續開會請李坤成委員發言等一下等張其凱委員"},{"start":14071.018,"end":14075.685,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請這個勞動部紅部長還有交通部的陳次長請紅部長陳次長"},{"start":14087.711,"end":14115.248,"text":"李委員好來部長好 次長好請教一下因為大家都很關心外送平台外送員的權益現在民進黨黨團也有提出一個草案出來了我先請教一下我們現在的外送員他有保險嗎現在有商業保險現在有商業保險未來如果說這一個按照民進黨黨團的草案來講的話他必須要投入公會的保險嗎"},{"start":14117.831,"end":14130.769,"text":"應該是說現在大家也會在看除了商業保險以外要不要需要有一些其他的社會保險尤其是安全的部分就是涉及到災保有一些權益的保護那現在所有的外送員他都有保險嗎"},{"start":14131.638,"end":14153.64,"text":"有商保98%有商保98%那请教一下就是说那现在是不是说外送未来外送平台要确认说外送员都已经有完成这个劳工职业灾害的保险投保程序之后然后才可以开放他登录系统或派发订单会不会做这样的要求"},{"start":14157.14,"end":14170.12,"text":"跟我們報告 未來就是會有這樣的一個思考跟設計也就是說他一定要有這樣的商業保險以後他才能夠上線所以必須要有保險之後他才能夠上線才能夠派單嘛"},{"start":14172.213,"end":14197.478,"text":"部長是不是對我們希望朝向這個方向來去做規劃那現在因為平台也大概有三四家那現在如果說我在A平台接單然後我在A平台投保那如果是我也同時也接了B平台的單然後在接B平台單的時候發生了這個事故那是由哪一家平台來負責"},{"start":14203.264,"end":14220.273,"text":"這個商業保險兩家都要去做處理都會處理不會說我是投哪一家商業保險他們都我們的安全衛生指引裡面就提到他們都要幫他保都要幫他保所以不會說因為我是投保哪一家的會有影響就對了"},{"start":14221.138,"end":14242.205,"text":"好 那我再請教一下那部長先請為好了我請教一下交通部次長你們在去年的11月有預告修正汽車運輸業管理規則要把機車外送運駕公司納入法制這個也一年的時間了這個現在管理規則現在的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":14243.147,"end":14268.807,"text":"對 我想跟委員報告一下有關這樣的一個法規就是要修改汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則那這一部分呢大概是我們公路局在跟相關的會議要討論然後消費者因為大家很關心所以提出各種不同的意見那我們現在大概收納了差不多了原則上我們會在11月來預告相關的一個草案"},{"start":14269.427,"end":14292.31,"text":"因為這個也關係到說我們整個外送平台的這個法嘛因為你們是負責就是說他的那一個運價運價的部分運價轉化成運費那這個也是以後外送員的收入的一部分對啊那所以現在那個外送員的收入他是除了這一個你們所訂出來的這一個運價之外那他的其他收入勒"},{"start":14293.45,"end":14313.972,"text":"其他的收入大概就是專法的勞動權益裡頭看他是怎麼樣去規範然後怎麼樣去律定那我先請教部長不好意思那所以呢現在這個外送員他的收入就是會有一個運價的一個收入然後一個是他的這一個勞動的酬勞的收入嘛"},{"start":14315.354,"end":14343.833,"text":"跟委員說明因為外送員的收入會涉及到運價運價的部分會是交通部用公路法來訂定我們這邊會來訂定的會是真的外送員的報酬運價跟報酬理當其實他應該有所連動所以交通部這邊訂的是運價的上限這個上限他的目的應該是要去處理跟消費者之間不要對消費者收取太過多的運價"},{"start":14345.334,"end":14355.124,"text":"那勞動部這邊我們認為概念上面我們來訂定是對外送員報酬的下限報酬下限是對他的收入有一些基本的保障用這個方式來去"},{"start":14356.317,"end":14382.13,"text":"去設計這個對於不管是對消費者或對外送員權利的保護所以現在外送員他的收入基本上會包含運價這方面然後也有包含這個他的勞動酬勞的這方面都有關係這兩個基本上就是他未來他的這一個收入的組成嘛是不是重要的組成應該就是這樣子對不對好那所以這個"},{"start":14384.09,"end":14409.577,"text":"有關這個勞動那勞動報酬這部分要怎麼去做計算呢其實報酬是還是可以計算計算包括他的這個里程上限的時間等等等用這方式可能會去做一些簡單的計算這樣子那我們是希望他要高於最低工資基本上一定要高於最低工資啦不肯低於最低工資的是不是好那因為現在這個"},{"start":14411.477,"end":14439.289,"text":"包含民進黨黨團也送出了這個草案我相信說大概這個會期大概也會接續排審那也希望說這個能夠一切順利啦因為畢竟也關係到將近15萬萬送員的權益還有包含店家還有消費者謝謝謝謝李坤城委員發言重新宣告等這個徐宇珍委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘休息20分鐘"},{"start":14440.714,"end":14442.035,"text":"那請張祺凱委員發言謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":14473.044,"end":14473.065,"text":"請紅部長"},{"start":14479.096,"end":14508.086,"text":"張委員好外送平台是在2012年登陸台灣的然後這段時間我們已經很多的這個外送平台跟專家協者還有外送員都在呼籲說趕快制定了這個專法之前還爆發了兩大外送平台合併的這個危機還好還好在大家強力的監督跟執行之下公平會"},{"start":14509.722,"end":14534.887,"text":"從善如流以獨立機關該有的把關跟審議沒有讓兩大平台合併通過今天要非常謝謝主席開始排審這個專法可是呢我們不禁的要問民進黨已經執政9年多之前"},{"start":14536.639,"end":14559.061,"text":"還是一黨獨大立法院是絕對的多數在那八年立法院的民進黨黨團或者行政院都沒有提出相關的這個版本包括洪部長你2020年就開始當部長對不對是對啊你那時候是大家認為說你是號稱關心社會跟勞動權益的"},{"start":14561.7,"end":14590.103,"text":"當2020當立委當這個2020當立委當立委嘛 對啊然後後來當了這個部長你當立委任內民進黨一黨獨大沒有看到民進黨的版本你又當了一年多了我現在還是沒有看到行政院的版本好 我們來看一下這13年來民間跟民眾黨或者是在野人士做的怎麼樣的一個努力"},{"start":14591.465,"end":14616.736,"text":"柯文哲在當台北市長的時候他在2019年跟台北市的勞動局局長賴香寧推動之下制定了全台灣第一個台北市外送平台業者的管理自治條例這是我們的第一個自治條例我們那時候也呼籲要馬上制定專法呼籲中央可是"},{"start":14618.564,"end":14647.651,"text":"民進黨一直都沒有動我們來做一個總結109年10月23號針對外送員在立法院提出第一次修正案的要修職業安全衛生法部分條文修正案的是民眾黨團最早提出外送專法的草案是誰第十屆立法院112年4月28號是民眾黨所提出來的專法"},{"start":14649.201,"end":14662.806,"text":"到了本屆台湾民众党再次提出修正的专法我在经济委员会有好几次提出执行一方面要求要提专法第二个要避免"},{"start":14664.246,"end":14692.041,"text":"我們的消費者跟外送員的這個潛力受到損害包括去年的9月10號我還主持了外送平台的併過案的公聽會我們要求不要市場壟斷而且要趕快訂專法保障我們的這個消費者今天我特別要提醒的也是我擔心的民進黨在昨天開始開的記者會展開了零案攻擊我要問過去10年"},{"start":14694.093,"end":14723.15,"text":"民進黨或者民進黨黨團有提出幾個外送平台跟外送員潛力的專法嗎零昨天聽說他們記者會提出一個法案來主席我們今天我看了一下我們今天要審的六個案子一個唯一黨團提出來是台灣民眾黨另外有五個是國民黨的版本我們今天應該沒有要審民進黨的版本"},{"start":14725.08,"end":14748.554,"text":"好 我最擔心的是昨天傍晚的時候我們的行政院長卓榮泰在答詢的時候說為了保障外送員的權益他希望明年一月份的時候跟立法院討論整套的這個質疑還在拖嗎 要以拖待變嗎台灣民眾黨已經把它當為優先的這個法案我們力爭這個會期一定"},{"start":14752.196,"end":14779.123,"text":"要完成三讀為了保障我們的消費者保障外送員的這個潛力火車已經開了今天非常謝謝主席排審了如果民進黨跟卓榮泰還要在業台那邊喊火車回來要等到明年1月份就把他們留在原地我們繼續往前開盡量盡快完成三讀我們來保障我們消費者潛力跟外送員的潛力"},{"start":14781.504,"end":14781.897,"text":"部長同意嗎"},{"start":14783.908,"end":14812.251,"text":"跟委員說明其實我想行政部門的版本我們這幾個月其實很積極的正在研議那我們剛剛其實也跟委員有報告了那當然現在進入到最後的法制作業的階段那當然因為法制作業階段還需要一點點的時間所以如果當然委員的審議如果願意再給我們多一點點的時間的話那我們也願意盡快的趕快來把行政部門的版本來提出"},{"start":14812.861,"end":14834.417,"text":"現在不是連民進黨都提版本出來的嗎我們是非常理性務實科學如果民進黨的版本裡面有真的是條文還不錯的大家會採納啊可是可以行政院要快一點好不好當然盡快我覺得不可能不可能你們自己如果火車開了要保障這個這個消費者要保障這個外送的這個權利人民不會等他們的我們立正盡快在這個會期完成三讀謝謝"},{"start":14844.366,"end":14847.468,"text":"謝謝張旗開委員發言請徐宇貞委員發言謝謝張偉我們請勞動部洪先生洪部長"},{"start":14867.259,"end":14893.814,"text":"許委員好部長好我想今天我們在這邊質詢主要當然都是為了這個外送人員的權益的相關問題不管是他們長期籠罩在這個演算法的黑箱或是契約的弱勢跟法制的空白當中已經造成嚴重的制度性的剝削與公衛跟交通安全的風險那部長你有提到說您在這段時間其實已經有跟外送工會跟平台的業者開了十次會議是嗎"},{"start":14895.795,"end":14919.826,"text":"不是十次 幾次啊你有跟平台業者跟外送工會一起開會嗎我以為你現在寫的比較是他們對話平台的會議啦這個對話平台比較不是針對法案那我現在要請教的是您有沒有跟外送工會跟平台業者開會"},{"start":14922.027,"end":14942.597,"text":"部裡面有當然那部長有嗎部裡面有對所以部長沒有就是有跟大家有跟大家有跟大家討論跟對話好那請問一下部裡因為你沒有參加那部裡有參加的這些長官有沒有跟您說他們邀請了哪些外送工會的這個一起參加"},{"start":14944.198,"end":14966.209,"text":"我們有召開那個平台會議 那平台會議裡面的工會端我們大概就遵循一些比較重要而且常常對外表達意見的一些外送的工會來一起做平台的交流你所謂的就是比較有常常有表達意見然後有比較重要的一些 可是為什麼本席收到的一些"},{"start":14968.23,"end":14986.09,"text":"對 為什麼我收到的一些全國的這個一些外送的工會都說他們沒有被邀請到呢所以我才說你們到底是邀請了哪些跟我們報告 全台灣的外送的工會大概有最 掛外送的話職業工會就有三四十個是 那你們邀請了幾個我們大概有八到七個"},{"start":14986.63,"end":15007.738,"text":"那這八到七個大概是哪些工會有外送產業工會也有外送職業工會有台北市有彰化縣有桃園的也有南部的我們區域不是說都集中是那你邀請這些對象是怎麼來的你為什麼邀請這些工會我們長期在做很多的跟工會之間的交流他們常常就是我們交流意見的對象"},{"start":15009.011,"end":15031.253,"text":"原則上為什麼今天會問部長的這個問題就是有很多的外送的這個工會都跟我們反映他們並沒有收到勞動部的邀請一起來參加這相關的平台會議那當然你說好三四十家然後你要的其中七八家這代表性在哪當然是你勞動部說了算可是為什麼很多的外送業者他都感覺到"},{"start":15031.633,"end":15051.378,"text":"他的工會都感覺不到勞動部對他們的重視所以您在這個部分 部長是不是能夠邀請我們部裡的同仁針對我們的外送工會應該是不要分顏色就是讓大家都能夠一起來共同的來參與這樣子的一個平台你開這個會才有意義嗎是嗎 跟委員說明"},{"start":15053.138,"end":15075.666,"text":"外送員的議題跟外送員相關的法制工作是絕對不會分顏色的對 我相信是絕對不會分顏色的但是呢 為什麼很多外送的平台的這些工會都說他們沒有受到邀請所以是不是可以請部長就是在這邊允諾就是說你們會針對我其實會後也可以告訴你是哪些工會到時候是不是您就可以邀請這些工會一起來參與呢"},{"start":15077.206,"end":15082.712,"text":"當然 那另外就是說針對針對這些會議中他們最在意的報酬離縣權勞保職災請問針對這些問題勞動部有沒有協助他們解決因為目前還沒有專法嗎包括報酬然後離縣權"},{"start":15093.649,"end":15116.409,"text":"跟停權然後包括職災的問題目前我們都會希望是放在專法裡面所以還沒有解決是因為還沒有專法所以推動專法要加速進行應該是現在最重中之重的事情所以剛本來講說要三個月大家都覺得這個時間太久所以要請這個部長一定要推動因為目前他們的問題沒有辦法解決是因為沒有專法"},{"start":15118.311,"end":15133.904,"text":"是不是請部長可以允諾我們要加速我們專法的一個推動這樣才能夠真正的照顧這些外送平台的業者我們很願意加速還有就是針對我們的各大平台的運算的方式不曉得勞動部是不是有掌握他們的運算方式"},{"start":15134.324,"end":15162.024,"text":"有 他有幾種類別好 那針對這幾種類別的話相信你們如果有講話的話應該更可以知道外送員其實權益被大量的剝削所以針對這部分我覺得你們應該有更強硬的一個公權力的一個展現來去處理相關的問題他的權益上的確在保障還需要更多的保障好 那請部長這個部分請你多用心 謝謝謝謝徐宇甄委員發言那委員會更新宣告讓黃捷委員詢答後再行休息好 請黃捷委員"},{"start":15174.244,"end":15193.8,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請部長請洪部長黃委員好好 洪部長午安今天早上有聽到您有直接表明說我們勞動部會有外送員專法的版本是嗎對什麼時候"},{"start":15195.411,"end":15219.117,"text":"其實版本已經進入到最後收斂的階段了那但是接下來可能還要因為有些跨部會的法制的工作要進行所以我們是希望在三個月內OK好謝謝部長三個月那這個其實是各黨團的共識包括民進黨團最近也提出我們的版本那其實外送員也等很久了然後六都其實也都有自己的自治條例是"},{"start":15219.437,"end":15237.155,"text":"所以我在這邊想要提醒部長的是我認為接下來大家進到版本的討論之前必須要認知到一個最大的問題就是演算法的不透明因為我一直認為這件事情演算法的霸權是造成所有外送員勞動權益受損最大的關鍵"},{"start":15240.018,"end":15247.887,"text":"為什麼呢因為這個演算法不透明導致外送員他們想要例如說他們突然被停權想要申訴想要舉證的時候都被這個雇主被列為說是不是都是因為演算法的問題可是問題是這個演算法其實就是雇主造成的啊"},{"start":15258.84,"end":15278.397,"text":"那他們不斷的推給說因為演算法其實裡面都有寫但是因為演算法不透明無法被驗證無法被追溯導致於外送員他們各式各樣的權益都被框在這個霸權之下所以他們沒有辦法進行議價沒有辦法跟僱主說因為演算法的問題造成我種種的勞動權益的受損"},{"start":15280.359,"end":15297.773,"text":"那甚至包括說我也聽到外送員他們不斷的在片面的調降薪資甚至是連夾單的費用都不斷的被砍那他們想要去申訴也申訴無門就因為這個演算法裡面各式各樣的機制他們都無從去跟雇主抗衡"},{"start":15298.513,"end":15321.546,"text":"所以我認為這一次的關鍵接下來既然要修法了拜託勞動部一定要站在外送員的角度去了解這個演算法到底要如何讓他們作為其實就是員工他們就是老實說他們就是在這個產業裡面的勞動的一員那到底要如何讓這個演算法是他們有辦法被保障的這個要拜託部長"},{"start":15323.608,"end":15338.327,"text":"那当然我在这边最后还是要强调说就是我一直认为说在这个数位产业里面这些外送员的权益跟消费者的权益很容易最后都是让这个平台方一方独大"},{"start":15339.308,"end":15353.586,"text":"導致受損的不只是消費者還有包括外送員所以我認為接下來既然要制定專法了我在這邊就是唯一一個提醒就是這個演算法的透明度接下來一定要非常非常審慎的進行討論OK"},{"start":15355.669,"end":15382.948,"text":"好那其他的部分包括說剛剛其實也有其他委員提到保險的部分那包括所有的勞動權益還有他們的一些交通風險到底如何讓外送員不會因為為了要瘋狂的跑單瘋狂的搶單才可以去拿到跟過去一樣的薪資導致於說他們不斷的在增加個人的交通上面的風險這件事情因為其實交通部他們也有針對這個"},{"start":15385.209,"end":15401.895,"text":"汽車運輸業的管理規則還有汽車運輸業的運價準則他們也有提出修正的草案了那我不知道說這方面我們勞動部跟交通部目前討論到的共識到什麼程度了是已經收尾了還是其實都差不多了"},{"start":15407.321,"end":15429.145,"text":"委員這部分就由交通部來說明有關那個汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則相關的一個修法我們大概跟相關的工會都有所討論原則上我們會在11月來公告相關的草案OK好11月公告相關草案然後我們勞動部三個月內送出外送員的專訪是好謝謝謝謝黃婕委員那現在宣告休息20分鐘"},{"start":17005.654,"end":17005.674,"text":"是"},{"start":17145.641,"end":17170.314,"text":"來 請繼續開會 請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席蔡常委員先進 列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴 記者媒體女士先生有請我們勞動部紅部長還有我們的交通部陳次長 書發部葉次長以及商發署的蘇署長那另外呢 金管會保險局各支消費者保護都準備"},{"start":17171.454,"end":17187.111,"text":"好 那個他們慢慢來我們就趕快開始了部長這個部長你知道嗎我們現在有行政院憲法有海覽七法對不對有聽過嘛你知道去年我們行政院有一個打詐四法對不對現在還有一個國安十法"},{"start":17188.051,"end":17215.402,"text":"為什麼一個事情要分成那麼多法什麼原因因為這裡面可能會有一些不同職長的分工對 不同部位的分工所以打造就分到好幾個部會海南也分到很多部會好 那我們來看一下我們關心外送員我們關心他的權益那我們來看一下這個概念我很快的講一下其實外送員他其實很像什麼很像我們有線電視系統頻道上的節目透過有線電視系統然後透過線路的傳輸到我們收視戶身上"},{"start":17215.982,"end":17237.063,"text":"但是頻道上是在整合全國性的有線電視系統在整合我們餐廳要把它的餐飲送到消費者身上也是透過一個外送平台做這些資訊的分配派遣外送員 然後送到消費者手上部長 有沒有覺得這個跟有線電視系統一個是吃的 一個是看的 很像吧好 我們往下看"},{"start":17237.643,"end":17253.772,"text":"所以我們來看一下糟糕的複雜的來了單單是餐廳的餐飲要及時的送到消費者身上後面是最重要的是外送員但是你看消費者要付運費消費者跟平台這個運費的收取有消保費"},{"start":17254.893,"end":17273.919,"text":"餐廳也是有它的拆帳也有它的問題但是餐廳是由誰經濟部管的然後外送平台基本上好像是速發部但是外送平台還有兩個角色一個是類似貨運公司負責送貨一個是類似資訊公司負責金流跟資訊流這裡面又涉及到個資保護然後交通部他管什麼"},{"start":17274.659,"end":17294.421,"text":"管這些道路運輸的這些運價然後外送員的是勞工他的勞動權是勞動部請問勞動部這麼複雜的法律關係你有把握現在委員會有六個委員會的版本民進黨也有一個黨團版本好像都把主管機關設定在勞動部勞動部承受得了嗎"},{"start":17297.071,"end":17325.483,"text":"確實委員說的沒有錯我們其實能夠主要管的還是在於外送員的勞動權益或勞動關係的權益上面這是我們在權責上面比較能夠cover的主管的部分是的 所以我們看到委員的提案至少民進黨團版我們focus的是什麼外送員的勞動權益所以我們是以外送員權益保障才加上另外一個外送平台的管理是不是這樣所以我想勞動部的權責主要是放在外送員的勞動權益好 我們一下看"},{"start":17326.363,"end":17341.196,"text":"所以說我們看外送員的勞動權益勞動條件要怎麼樣這裡面有中央政府勞動部會希望訂立一個定型化契約全國一體適用但是實質上外送員可不可能從台北跑到屏東去送餐很難嘛"},{"start":17341.716,"end":17362.253,"text":"一定是在各該地方縣政府的轄內他類似像貨運公司一樣去那邊送餐嘛所以根據他使用的區域道路其實這些道路所在的範圍還是屬於地方主管機關所以勞動部未來有沒有先開始有這個心理準備未來你訂立這個指引之後可能需要跟各地方政府的勞動機關還有他們的路徑機關來協調 有沒有"},{"start":17366.016,"end":17388.664,"text":"當然因為這個法如果訂定以後其實在很多的執法的部分的權責其實也是會有地方政府會需要地方政府一起來來好好執行我跟你說我們民進黨的黨團法我們第22條有提到說平台業者他很有可能把這些業務委託給地方的汽車貨運業者來負責這些道路上面對地方的主管機關好往下看"},{"start":17389.344,"end":17410.371,"text":"所以我们来看一下各方的权益保障跟平台管理其实最重要的明确各部位的分工跨部位的合作才能保障各方权益譬如说外送员要有离线权外送员要有基本的报酬那劳动部定性化契约但是平台呢他也跟另外的消费者餐厅和外送员他的契约争议怎么处理"},{"start":17410.911,"end":17434.342,"text":"還有外送員他也需要去有保險有職災保險這兩個都還是勞動部的權責但是平台他要保存這些記錄各自保護你看看後面站的人越來越多因為呢這些都跟你後面的各部會有關是不是這樣你們後面都同意吧後面同意的點個頭都同意嗎你看問題這麼大好往下看結論來了所以呢目前我們要保障外送員消費者及合作商家的三方權益"},{"start":17435.482,"end":17456.82,"text":"我們顧客他要求的是合理運費商店他要求平台不能過分的抽成外送員他需要有基本報酬 還有透明停權跟送禮契約條件要透明要有申訴跟救濟的機制要有職災保險跟其他的商業保險補助然後平台有這件事情 問題來了平台的這些事情 勞動部一個部會管得了嗎"},{"start":17458.121,"end":17473.888,"text":"需不需要速發部幫忙需要交通部速發部一起那消費爭議搞不好還有消保會對不對那餐廳的爭議搞不好還有經濟部上發對不對好所以最後的結論有沒有結論有結論結論就是各位好好加油吧謝謝謝謝中嘉賓委員發言請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17492.625,"end":17520.673,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請您下 洪部長請洪部長姚委員好 部長我們今天討論就是外送平台管理的部分我們先不討論 就討論從業人員權益保障相關的法律因為其實平台的管理可能跟勞動部本身比較沒有積極的關係"},{"start":17522.597,"end":17545.442,"text":"我想要先請教一下部長就是說有委員版本有民進黨團版本部裡面沒有版本我們有在研議然後已經到最後的階段所以你們是贊成的對不對因為外送平台的從業人員可能會越來越多那各國的立法力"},{"start":17546.395,"end":17572.113,"text":"譬如說歐盟他是有用一個工作指令可能有要求加盟國必須要立法西班牙的歧視法等等那我想要請問一下外國的立法力都有認定或者推定外送員跟平台業者的關係是雇用關係那不一定像"},{"start":17576.758,"end":17585.811,"text":"像西班牙的歧視法西班牙歧視法是 但是不一定都是那我們"},{"start":17588.502,"end":17614.52,"text":"你個人認為是不是雇傭關係那不是雇傭關係的話是什麼關係跟文說明的確他到底在勞動關係上面是不是雇傭關係這是很多大家在討論的爭點之一到目前為止的確還有各方包括在專業界上看法不一定都一致的地方所以我們自己認為如果今天要有一個法制化的工作的話其實我們可以做的方式可以是"},{"start":17616.081,"end":17631.573,"text":"希望外送員要有哪些權益的保障我們其實用正面的方式把它給列入然後把它給放出來這個會不會有怪異漏案的問題就是說我大概知道你們的立場你們的立場就是要跳脫契約的定性"},{"start":17632.566,"end":17656.427,"text":"然後一條一條來列一條一條來列風險還蠻大的但是因為現在因為我們也不會認為它是單純的承攬關係我們也不這樣認為所以這也是為什麼其實在一些國家它會有點認知它是有點像是一個中間類型或者是有點像是一個準了"},{"start":17657.648,"end":17669.035,"text":"類勞工所以他也是在這裡面其實有一點點模糊地帶在認代這個事情不是定型的契約啦還是用定型契約只是他的勞動關係不是傳統的那樣子的勞動關係那"},{"start":17675.177,"end":17702.235,"text":"所以也就是在修法的過程勞動部這邊可能必須要很謹慎因為沒有一個有名契約可以來容納這樣子的一個商業勞資類型的契約那要一項一項來標示這個是一件必須要很小心的而且要很縝密對那"},{"start":17710.325,"end":17731.728,"text":"這也是這個法其實在訂定上面跟傳統過去的勞動法規挑戰比較多的地方是在這個地方對啦可能也就是為什麼那麼多人都主張包括委員包括勞動部都主張必須要訂定專法的一個原因"},{"start":17734.608,"end":17755.978,"text":"可是現在就是說外國的立法例大概都有要求平台業者攸關外送員的勞權和薪資的演算法必須要公開透明因為外送員高度依賴平台的分派工作獲得報酬"},{"start":17759.266,"end":17773.949,"text":"外送員對於平台業者演算法是不是公平分派外送員並沒有辦法知道那勞動部可能必須要在修法的同時就必須要先"},{"start":17775.259,"end":17795.498,"text":"先研究看怎麼要求平台業者演算法管理有一定程度的公開這個要求人家完全公開這個是不可能因為這個裡面涉及到很多商業秘密可是假如完全不公開其實你再怎麼立法都很難"},{"start":17797.523,"end":17823.939,"text":"落實保障外送員權益外送員最擔心的是當他可能被做了一些不利的處分的時候他很難去詢問到底為什麼或者是怎麼做成這個處分到底這個處分的根源到底是有道理還是沒道理還是被過度的不成比例的懲罰那這事情是外送員現在最擔心的是這件事情所以這部分也是我們要給他更多的保障的原因對欸"},{"start":17831.144,"end":17849.958,"text":"就是在等待外送的時間算不算酬勞 算不算委員在講的是說當然就是說他的工作期間所以我認為可能我們會需要去界定一個他的上限期間上限期間是什麼意思"},{"start":17852.369,"end":17872.044,"text":"跟委員報告那個剩限期限就是指他今天可以開始提供外送服務所以他就按就說我現在是可以開始我就啟動那個機器這時候呢他可能在等然後真正接到單呢我們就認為那叫外送服務時間這兩個是不太一樣對對對我現在講的是說你師長再講一下這個"},{"start":17879.946,"end":17889.879,"text":"外送員如果覺得他現在可以提供勞務譬如說從現在開始對 他按下去這時候就是所謂的上限期間然後上限以後呢他不見得馬上等到單對"},{"start":17891.892,"end":17915.846,"text":"有時候他會拒單等到他單來了他也同意了按下去我說我接了這時候他開始要騎車去餐廳的時候這個路上我們認為就是外送服務期間這個才算待命時間不算就是他開始覺得他可以送這個不算如果沒有上線那就跟上線都沒有關係就跟一般狀態一樣"},{"start":17917.647,"end":17934.296,"text":"對 因為是這樣子就是我覺得勞工的權益然後平台的合理利潤商家的生意怎麼穩定然後消費者怎麼減少支出這個是一個很複雜的關係那要完全"},{"start":17941.359,"end":17964.91,"text":"全部讓它四方面都可以平衡這個在立法的過程可能真的有很多東西必須要討論的這真的在立法的技術上面當然是因為它涉及到多方的利害相關方一個是利害相關方多第二個涉及到的部會也多所以在立法技術上確實是需要很小心的琢磨"},{"start":17966.31,"end":17993.101,"text":"這個就是除了立法技術以外呢其實在立法的過程怎麼去橫平各項的價值不只是勞工權益價值橫平各項價值然後怎麼兼顧各方利益讓大家都可以當然不可能全部滿意可是怎麼讓大家在"},{"start":17994.281,"end":18008.977,"text":"只要有多方的啦我都覺得立法的結果就是盡可能讓大家雖然不滿意可是都可以接受讓制度可以持久的進行這個才重要好不好謝謝楊要委員謝謝楊要委員發言請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":18026.377,"end":18030.058,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請部長請同部長王委員好部長在今天早上的提案說明裡面我就有特別提到因為兩大外送平台業者包含Foodpanda還有UberEat分別在101年跟105年就進入台灣事實上在這個產業在台灣已經存在13年之久"},{"start":18056.323,"end":18081.483,"text":"那麼而且呢因為這個新型的產業的產生它當然出現了非常多的相關的勞資糾紛甚至有消費糾紛但是所以這個案子呢這個法案我必須說因為政府的非常的怠惰而使得我們中央的立法的腳步甚至呢比地方還不如"},{"start":18082.364,"end":18100.886,"text":"那麼過去呢我們也有數次包含就是前我們勞動部長我又都質詢過我們有很多委員質詢過都是這樣子說個人是支持但是呢就是一直在踢皮球一直在踢皮球今天早上你說"},{"start":18102.609,"end":18116.474,"text":"願意在跟我們在立法院提出來能夠好好的研究而且你說你也曾經跟關心的委員提出討論請問一下你跟哪些委員來討論幾位其實對這個議題上關心的委員提案的委員算不算關心當然算我就是提案委員之一你有跟我討論過嗎"},{"start":18131.172,"end":18158.312,"text":"好像沒有吧好我今天也問了齁陳昭之委員他是代表民眾黨因為是民眾黨團提案嘛對不對請問你有跟民眾黨團有討論過嗎有嗎你自己這你幹嘛還要看我看別人你有討論過嗎我問他他說完全沒有我就覺得奇怪了我們關心關心這個草案這個立法的我們提案委員不算關心嗎"},{"start":18160.151,"end":18186.142,"text":"我想你跟討論大概都是民進黨團的委員吧可是民進黨團從昨天開記者會之外之前一個版本都沒有啊你們行政院也在推脫啦所以你怎麼會在這邊睜眼說瞎話呢好像你非常關心跟關心的委員在討論提案委員沒有關心嗎提案的黨團不關心嗎但是都沒有得到你要跟我們來討論"},{"start":18187.788,"end":18216.421,"text":"所以這個當然是現在整個的一個社會的氛圍老實說在大罷免時期我們站在街頭上對我們回應最正向的除了小黃七層車問獎司機大哥之外就是很多的外送員的朋友啊因為長期被政府所漠視啊你們現在感受到這樣的一個政治壓力了現在來關心"},{"start":18218.936,"end":18247.703,"text":"但是我們還是樂觀其成因為我們早上都說我們希望能夠加速好那我想請問部長未來這個草案因為很多都是用勞動部可是你們在之前一直都講說因為這個平台都用汽車貨運業而且你們也指定行政院已經指定交通部作為平台的管理機關好那請問一下我們這個專法未來主管機關是誰呢"},{"start":18249.815,"end":18278.45,"text":"你們要繼續推給交通部嗎跟委員說明第一個法的主管機關我們願意 勞動部願意來承擔好 所以你們勞動部終於願意當這個專法的主管機關了法的主管機關勞動部願意來承擔但的確這裡面比方說涉及到一些平台比方說平台跟消費者平台跟商家這部分會需要其他部會一起來協助那這部分可能也需要在法裡面把它給框定清楚"},{"start":18279.41,"end":18300.476,"text":"因為到你們的報告裡面仍然是說因為他們用貨運運送業者來做登記所以這治理機關是交通部所以我才要問那未來這個主管機關現在勞動部終於願意願意扛起這個責任因為過去通通踢皮球對不對"},{"start":18302.356,"end":18322.355,"text":"合佩賽你踢皮球啊 洪森漢你踢皮球啊現在終於正式面對那另外因為消防部的講法也是說如果涉及交通的部分我們當然就是會全力的配合交通部也把他限縮是你涉及交通部分我才願意全力的配合那所以我在這邊確定一個未來會不會有願板"},{"start":18327.127,"end":18346.565,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在行政部門的版本上我們也進入到這個條文最後研擬的階段那的確後面還有一些其實跟跨部會有關的這個在這個立法過程這個會期會被提出院版嗎我們應該是可以趕在這個會期前"},{"start":18348.111,"end":18366.205,"text":"這個會期前大概什麼時候這個會期我們希望要到1月31號我們希望在三個月內三個月內不過這個實在是太晚了我剛剛講雖然你們終於願意面對但是時間實在是牛步化那所以我們立法院我們還是會積極的推動好不好我們也希望盡快謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員發言請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":18381.862,"end":18384.505,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請洪聖翰部長請洪部長部長好 議員好我雖然也同樣很關心外送員的權益但是我想今天有非常多的委員都有針對這個來做詢答了所以本席問的另外一個問題恐怕也是攸關我們的產業界跟我們所有的這個 下一頁"},{"start":18406.694,"end":18430.149,"text":"產業界跟所有的傳產跟製造業所面臨的台灣現在是不是真的成為了血汗之島呢針對9月24號巨大機械被美國的海關際邊境保護局就是CBP針對它台灣製造的自行車跟零件被發布了戰扣令這件事情今天早上我在國防外交委員會我問了林佳龍部長"},{"start":18431.47,"end":18451.244,"text":"剛剛我在經紀委員會也問了公民新部長那麼我算是集滿第三顆心就是勞動部因為這個事情發生之後呢我想這件事情回歸到最後大家想問的就是這是個案但這個個案接下來會不會面對他成為台灣不論是傳產或者是"},{"start":18451.564,"end":18476.194,"text":"科技業在面對美國針對我們在勞權的制度上面的問題的時候未來發生同樣的事情的時候他的SOP會是什麼因為今天我問外交部長的時候我也問了經濟部長那麼到底我們在對外溝通的時候主責單位會是誰而像這樣的一個狀況可以看到川普上台之後他們的所謂CBP"},{"start":18476.894,"end":18485.233,"text":"很powerful他們很多的事情都是先行之後他執行他的所謂從川普總統再到"},{"start":18487.596,"end":18515.619,"text":"邊境管制又或者是要跟美國做貿易他所給予的這樣的一個制度他會先進行所謂的戰扣令那麼這樣的一個個案發生之後其實傳產或科技業的其他業者恐怕他也正在看對美輸入輸出東西的時候到底該怎麼做那麼剛剛問了經濟部長跟外交部長之後最後還是回到了就是在勞動法規或者是勞動指引的部分"},{"start":18516.78,"end":18528.631,"text":"勞動部怎麼樣來面對這個問題跟委員說的確關於強迫勞動跟像這一次針對台灣的公司來進行WRO戰扣令的狀況是非常需要謹慎 審慎的來面對"},{"start":18531.124,"end":18554.197,"text":"那雖然美方這一次是針對單一的公司可是我們並沒有以個案來視之我們並沒有個案來看待這的確會需要我們包括跟經濟部我們會需要來協助我們的產業做一個更普遍性的檢視所以我們接下來會跟經濟部一起來規劃一個輔導跟的機制也包括相對應的指引那"},{"start":18555.817,"end":18582.613,"text":"因為現在這個勞動人權的問題已經變成是企業經營上的經濟風險所以我們要從風險的角度來協助企業怎麼樣子辨識這個風險辨識風險下才能夠管理這個風險或降低這個風險我們的思考是這樣當然在這個輔導過程裡面我們也會來檢視我們的法規是不是有調整的需要因為確實在後面後面也會有需要面對的法規上面的問題"},{"start":18583.573,"end":18596.976,"text":"但因為台灣的產業當然各種樣態都有所以尤其是我們中小企業多所以我們可能也會需要一些調適的時間可是這部分的確我們會盡力的積極的來跟經濟部一起來協助我們的廠商"},{"start":18597.608,"end":18614.156,"text":"好 我很開心喔 就聽到部長其實應該有一個想法跟方向了我會特別來質詢這個部分是過去如果台灣是做代工那麼你做人家的代工的時候主要下單的這樣的一個公司或是跨國企業他會有他了解跟遵循的法規他會自己來查場"},{"start":18615.336,"end":18621.739,"text":"也就是說你在勞動條件上面或者是在勞權的部分必須要遵守這個所謂下單的公司他們怕他們被制裁或者是被裁罰他會有SOP在這裡可是當我們現在都是幫自己打工幫自己來做品牌的時候就會面對這些標準上面的模糊地帶那麼如果部長跟經濟部這邊有溝通的話那會是一個好的方向因為我相信我們也不希望因為這樣的一個個案接下來包括我們跟美方的談判"},{"start":18644.471,"end":18667.47,"text":"又或者是像科技業科技業其實它也蠻血汗的啦這個我想大家也騙不了人包括這些工程師等等也都是工時等等會受到質疑所以這個部分我也希望不只是傳產包括科技業是不是勞動部這裡都要一併來做了解跟一併把它納入來做制度上面設定的一個就是產業"},{"start":18669.538,"end":18696.54,"text":"我覺得我們需要讓我們的產業知道因為國際上面確實越來越重視強迫勞動的問題尤其是針對移工的一些待遇的問題所以我們的產業也必須了解到這件事情它進而才會意識到這真的沒有做好的話它會成為一個風險所以我覺得從風險角度管理然後做出實質的改善我覺得這是最重要的事情那我們要跟產業我們願意幫助產業用最大力氣來幫助產業但是的確時間上面我們會需要盡快來"},{"start":18697.401,"end":18720.123,"text":"好因為主席你站起來我只問最後一個問題那就是因為這又是一樣跨部會的事情有外交部因為然後又有勞動部然後也可能有經濟部那麼這個部分的話會是勞動部主責嗎然後你們在修這個剛剛您所講的這個指引的部分有沒有一個day line要多久或者是說你們面對這樣的一個問題之後你們打算起一個什麼樣的跨部會的協商那都要多少時間"},{"start":18721.292,"end":18748.917,"text":"這個事情我們會跟經濟部合作因為經濟部那邊會有一個淨值調查的相關相對應的推動那勞動部這邊我們也對於強迫勞動跟包括移工上面的一些管理的機制然後仲介的管理的部分我們也會來協助所以這裡面會有各有各的權責可是我們會用合作的方式來盡快推動好如果可以的話我希望這個有更進一步的訊息的時候能夠跟本席以及我們衛環委員會的衛環委員會的所有的委員來做報告好不好謝謝"},{"start":18750.572,"end":18753.695,"text":"好謝謝林楚瑩委員發言請吳思堯委員發言謝謝主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":18771.1,"end":18797.913,"text":"部長所有列席的同仁大家辛苦了現在已經是一天的下半天了大家都還在這裡關心外送權外送員的權益這個會期行政院有四個優先我們在所有的議案上希望能夠做到民生優先經濟優先青年優先弱勢優先在思堯看來其實我們現在來推動外送員權益專法"},{"start":18798.493,"end":18821.825,"text":"就是all in one four in one它既是民生議題又是經濟產業它也是很多從業人員是青年族群也有許多是弱勢族群所以這一個four in one的民生經濟法案我希望大家就理性來對話而不是在這裡政治口水下一頁"},{"start":18823.005,"end":18846.282,"text":"我今天要替您報區事實上您是我所知道的歷任的勞動部長裡頭因應外送員這個新興經濟模式也是一個全新的產業你是勇敢接球的那個人而不是踢球的那個人怎麼接球的那個洪森漢部長今天我看你被罵到臭頭我現在替你報區因為這個法"},{"start":18848.884,"end":18872.436,"text":"過去有很多的立法技術的困難就是誰要做本法的主管機關嗎洪聖翰部長勞動部的同仁勇敢的承擔了責任我想我是給予肯定而我也認為法與其要立得快更要立得好因為這是一個專法也是一個全新的立法不應當為快而快"},{"start":18873.496,"end":18882.005,"text":"本屆的立法院有一個最大的弊病啊就是我們立法委員就是把法立好或是把法修好而不是把法搞爛"},{"start":18883.878,"end":18900.288,"text":"剛剛有委員在這裡垂詢您說你有沒有去找提案的某委員A委員B委員C委員一個一個討論溝通我承認吳思瑤跟洪森漢部長討論很多次為什麼因為我主動打電話給他請他來一起溝通跟討論我想問一下"},{"start":18903.65,"end":18917.469,"text":"剛剛他所提的這幾位OK有提案的委員請問王宏威委員也好或是民眾黨的委員也好有像我們吳思瑤或是民進黨團關心的委員主動一而再再而三的邀請您我們約時間來討論嗎"},{"start":18920.134,"end":18948.324,"text":"我想只要委員有邀請的話我們都願意一起參與是嘛那委員也要既然關心就主動邀請嘛我相信深漢也來自於立法院嘛跟委員的溝通無礙嘛所以我是要先替你們報區也要給鼓勵送暖支持無論如何這一個法的催生我們現在就上路而且他是一個不折不扣的民生經濟法案不要再政治口水下一頁"},{"start":18949.464,"end":18963.983,"text":"民進黨團的版本喔我們未來就來比一比喔產業要有競爭力立法也要有競爭力我們羅列的民進黨團的十大亮點在這個法案上我這裡都列舉出來了"},{"start":18964.929,"end":18981.968,"text":"很重要的一個觀點是一個界面是各部會六大部會全投入部會要清楚分工我看其他的版本喔國民黨委員版本民眾黨的版本就是勞動部然後其他跨部會的業務他不管了"},{"start":18983.141,"end":18994.226,"text":"這是不可行的所以民進黨團的第一個我們負責任的立法各部會六大部會全力投入就是只有民進黨團版本有"},{"start":18995.031,"end":19018.885,"text":"第二個在運費跟最低工資可以雙重保障外送員的基本報酬也只有民進黨團的版本最全面當然我們看到羅廷威委員王玉敏王宏威民眾黨團的版本也有一些些著墨但民進黨團是雙重保障最全面第三個就是民進黨團特別重視的外送員的離線權"},{"start":19021.994,"end":19046.508,"text":"有三個版本在野黨版本是沒有的還有平台不得中止片面中止契約也就是不能隨意任意的停權這個部分是民進黨團是only one唯一我們的版本有其他版本複製缺乳還有建立外送員的申訴管道而且成立一個有外聘專家導入的爭議處理的申訴的小組"},{"start":19047.869,"end":19065.916,"text":"來保障外送員的勞動權益也只有民進黨團的版本有其他的六個版本都沒有提及下一頁接下來外送員的職災保費很重要其他委員的版本也有提到職災保險但是由誰來負擔他們沒有提"},{"start":19066.576,"end":19091.582,"text":"只有民進黨團的版本清楚的讓外送員的職災保費是由平台來負擔我們入法了同樣的商業保險入法也是民進黨團版本當然紅衛委員的版本也有OK再來呢擬定平台跟外送員消費者店家之間的定型化契約民進黨團版本最全面另外的在黨委有三個版本沒有提到"},{"start":19092.543,"end":19113.512,"text":"最後兩個也都是消費者外送員的各自保護很重要各自保護民進黨團版本也是入法以及平台必須記錄保存的責任他要承擔而相關機關擁有調閱權都是為了保障消費者也保障同步保障店家這些都有"},{"start":19114.514,"end":19132.601,"text":"所以說我們的法要立得周延法案要有競爭力才能夠幫助產業的競爭力全面提升我非常負責任的去整理彙整現在所有的版本的利弊得失我們希望未來在討論的時候大家都理性對話"},{"start":19134.13,"end":19155.563,"text":"最後呢因為您會提願板嘛我是提醒單排案的交委委員很用心我是提醒當然我們願意等願板否則會陷入一個狀況我對照了所有的版本你要用哪一個版本作為參照的版本來修那個條次因為彼此的差距很大"},{"start":19156.303,"end":19173.264,"text":"所以如果院版端出之後大家一起用院版作為一個審查的參照也許在條次的對應上就比較能夠有所依循否則你看民進黨團25條我們各方面都有但是如果要請廖委員用民進黨團的版本來作為參照的這個"},{"start":19175.226,"end":19191.975,"text":"主體可能也為難了您可是要如果沒有一個參照的母體的版本真的每個委員的調次跟規範的面向其實在未來的立法過程裡頭會遭受很大的困難所以如果說委員會有共識也在這裡請示這個交委"},{"start":19193.996,"end":19220.056,"text":"如果有院版來討論可能對於後續的討論會更有品質也更有效率這是我的提醒那我們就一起加油我為所有勞動部的同仁們當然其他部會交通部有責任抒發部有責任經濟部有責任金管會有責任然後勞動部有責任還有行政院的消保處有責任所有的部會一起動起來沒有人是局外人但我還是謝謝勞動部勇敢的承擔謝謝"},{"start":19221.813,"end":19241.346,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝吳思耀委員發言羅明才委員羅明才委員羅明才委員不在請劉建國委員發言謝謝召委謝謝主席今天排這個案非常重要那我們先請部長吧"},{"start":19242.313,"end":19262.839,"text":"請洪部長今天很多委員就針對外送員的權益問題來質詢洪部長我想這是要訂定一個新的法律相關的權益保障也會在這個外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案中來進行討論那我也聽到部長有承諾會把行政院版本弄出來對不對"},{"start":19264.71,"end":19285.584,"text":"但是我要定這個新法基本上要很多面向去做思考所以今天召委排這個是讓我們大家都有可以從不同的面向來提供給行政單位做最好的這樣的一個制定性的法律的依據我要從外送員的職場環境安全問題來討論這牽涉到有幾個部會我"},{"start":19294.537,"end":19315.476,"text":"我要從外送員的職場環境安全的範圍來討論這牽涉到今天出席的那幾個單位交通部然後我們的職安署然後安全的話應該主要是這樣子數位部這樣而已嗎平台業者的登錄平台業者的登錄是誰 轄管"},{"start":19319.861,"end":19345.941,"text":"平台業者現在因為平台的治理的全的單位是交通部行政院定平台業者的登錄是交通部登平台業者誰管的如果到現在不曉得平台業者是誰在管的那那這個法律要怎麼定呢平台業者現在整體的治理單位的主應該是目的是做應該是交通部吧"},{"start":19352.711,"end":19379.76,"text":"那還不上來嗎陳氏我問你這樣你還不起來啊不然長期在那邊拿菜你也吃奇怪了平台業者是跟交通部登記嗎平台業者平台業者現在有大概七家的業者裡頭大概有四家他平台業者是跟我們登記為汽車運輸業"},{"start":19382.22,"end":19405.679,"text":"跟你們登記的汽車運輸業 七家 四家那三家是跟誰去登記還是他不用登記 他就是要做平台業者他就可以馬上指揮你去哪邊 去哪邊送 去哪邊送他其他是用商業登記的方式在做商業登記 那有誰管呢有人舉手了 謝謝 不錯 社長都沒有舉手你是商業發展署嘛 對不對"},{"start":19407.443,"end":19433.056,"text":"所以就跟各位都有關係嘛應該整體來講就是說勞動部、交通部、經濟部都有關啦所以這部法律要訂定在那一個新的一個範疇裡面可能全部的部會都要坐下來好好思考我想這個院版才會定出更真完備的這樣的一個對外送員的權利的相關保障嘛因為外送員絕對跟平台有直接的關係嘛 對不對好 那我現在寫給部長看一個東西喔"},{"start":19434.059,"end":19457.953,"text":"不然這 對不起啦 麻煩你念這四個字好不好你看到這四個字進行機車 進行機車嘛 好道路交通管理處啊 條例當然是交通部管的那機車在 騎在進行機車上要花多少錢你就吃辣啦 今天我問你都沒什麼人知道這個事情這樣這個發生什麼事啦"},{"start":19462.495,"end":19476.41,"text":"是用處罰條例的相關規定來處罰啦我知道啦 花多少錢啦多少錢喔我已經講了你還講錢可能要查一下要查一下六百塊啦好不好 我跟你講 六百六百好不好 六百"},{"start":19478.113,"end":19503.765,"text":"600對我們不算多嘛對外送員來講是很多可能他一顛的收入就不見了600來說又處罰條例的罰款裡頭算是比較我知道啦 但是我現在針對外送員的事情嘛對不對好 那很多人一定會納悶這個進行機車跟外送員的關係是什麼嘛跟外送員的職場環境的關係是什麼嘛 對不對甚至有人說外送員你如果不要去騎這邊就不會被罰600的嗎"},{"start":19505.683,"end":19508.272,"text":"就不會被售罰了嘛應該是這麼說嘛 對不對實際上是這樣嘛"},{"start":19512.144,"end":19540.182,"text":"我給部長看 跟次長看一個新聞這個走40分 外送遠送醫院被兇太慢 還給護平有外送我們抱怨 接到龍總的訂單 北龍啦但醫院方有規定禁止騎車入內 於是徒步送餐 花了快40分結果你醫護一見面就錢太晚 太慢 事後還給護平大嘆 難怪沒有人要跑龍總的單然後也掉出相當多這樣的苦準"},{"start":19540.962,"end":19547.371,"text":"我不曉得部長次長對這事情怎麼看像平台業者派這樣的單你們怎麼看"},{"start":19553.173,"end":19574.199,"text":"這確實因為等於是外送員如果接到這樣的單可能會多出蠻多的時間上面的成本所以可能會有些外送員在如果接到這樣的單的時候他可能就會想要他不想跑這樣的單這是可以理解的對啊 他不想跑這個單但是平台業者就派他去要送這個單怎麼辦"},{"start":19577.035,"end":19605.164,"text":"在程序上面他們應該是可以拒單可是可以拒單可是外送員也會擔心因為他們常會擔心如果拒單的話會不會在整個演算法的機制裡面會被做一些不利以後派單的記錄對這是他們會擔心的地方如果外送員也無視這個健行機車這四個字他進去醫院就直接滑600嘛就他一天可能就不見他的相關的一些酬勞了嘛對不對然後"},{"start":19607.005,"end":19627.584,"text":"然後平台業者會合理說要起訴給這些外送員還是要讓這些外送員繼續承擔這樣的事情就你們的理解啦對 所以在這個狀況下外送員會很為難會很為難嘛好 交通部次長有沒有什麼要表達的嗎"},{"start":19629.237,"end":19657.989,"text":"還有商業發展署有關這個派送剛才講到進行機車我的了解在這裡面應該是院區的管理跟剛才特別提到在外面進行機車的管理的規定是不一樣的就這樣但是如何派單讓他合理我想這個以後大概在這個平台的管理上可以來加強所以你們未來要訂這個法律的時候會不會有所規範"},{"start":19661.826,"end":19682.62,"text":"未來要訂這個新的法律要保障我們外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障我們的全名叫做外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案會不會把這個納入時間的關係啦不曉得等一下再回答跟委員說明我們的確是會在思考假設要法治化的話那"},{"start":19684.093,"end":19708.998,"text":"应该要在条文里面更明确的去设定如果外送员拒单或因为这些原因拒单的话这个平台不应该给予不利的记录那用这个方式所以如果外送员不会因为害怕被不利的对待而能够有拒单的权利的时候那平台也必须思考或者是像"},{"start":19709.958,"end":19735.214,"text":"北榮應該去思考 或這樣子的地點去思考說怎麼樣子能夠讓這事情能夠真的比較符合多方權益的運作起來北榮已經有思考 北榮也已經有做一些調整了我再講一段這其實外送也不怕多走這一段路啦但是他們也會怕生財工具被拖掉部長跟次長可以看北榮周遭的環境全部都是紅線他連機車要停外面都沒有機會"},{"start":19737.267,"end":19745.749,"text":"像這樣的環境 諸如此類的非常非常多 我不曉得你們有沒有掌握所以我 所以 然後"},{"start":19747.014,"end":19774.724,"text":"如果假設他們裡面有停車格那也被探病看病了早就已經停滿了所以他們要怎麼辦這是一個樣態 兩個樣態然後再來我剛剛特別提到說北龍在看這則新聞之後人家他們馬上因應了他馬上設置三處的外送點讓外送人員可以入院停車送外送但是我剛剛講說很多住的醫院百貨公司車站周遭甚至於某大型的有一個大型社區叫什麼社區"},{"start":19775.953,"end":19795.629,"text":"那個是網友號稱的魔王社區也有魔王社區不是七月喔是每天都有一個魔王社區然後還有類似中校西路它整條街 整條都是健行機車如果平台業者派外送員到那個地方怎麼辦"},{"start":19797.368,"end":19813.459,"text":"所以我要講的就是說這個我們在法律在訂的時候可能都要把它納入整個思考的範疇裡面這訂出來的法律才真的是保障從業人員也對相關的這個外胸的平台的管理才會"},{"start":19814.7,"end":19836.033,"text":"才會得以啦 應該是這麼講好 然後我再給你看漾太山啦真的沒有最扯 只有更扯啦不是那個超扯 超扯那個全國外送產業工會指出桃園一家木瓜牛奶店地點建在這個桃園機場第二行下的二樓店家還註明外送員騎車進不來 請搭捷運"},{"start":19839.226,"end":19863.642,"text":"好 各位可以開箱一下根據全國外送產業公會計算這張可能要倒賠先不算步行的時間光捷運就需要耗費21分鐘左右至於這個平台許可店家時難道沒有經過相關的省的評估嗎這種店家根本就不應該出現在這種系統上還有另外一個是在位於中壢的服務區高速公路的中壢的服務區裡面"},{"start":19865.191,"end":19894.437,"text":"所以我才特別提到說平台業者到底是誰轄管的嘛誰主著的嘛那你剛跟我講七家四家你們管那三家是誰管的如果平台業者的一個主管機關到現在都還是事權不一那可能你們在管理平台業者的本身的問題就會特別多這問題又來了啊不能平台業者只管派單嘛對不對然後也不顧他派單那個地點的合理性嘛"},{"start":19895.405,"end":19909.615,"text":"這個你們要規範啊 這個你們要處理啊這個你們要管理啊法律有沒有把這個範疇放進來如果平台會議室持續這個樣子平台會議室必須要遭受到我們主管機關的怎樣的一個處置嘛"},{"start":19915.044,"end":19931.074,"text":"我想委員剛才特別提到的就是說派遣的那個到那個派單的地方他是不是可以停車是不是可以可及等等的這後可能在所謂的派單系統上的時候可能要來做一些考量"},{"start":19931.823,"end":19959.646,"text":"不然我特別強調平台月子不能只管派單嘛完全不顧這個地點的這樣的一個合理性嘛對不對然後要外送人自己去承受這樣的交通違規啦還是說其他安全的隱患的風險嘛萬一有一天出事了政府機關誰要來負責這是每天在上演的事情每天都在上演現在也在上演嘛對不對所以我在提供樣態是啦"},{"start":19963.234,"end":19983.702,"text":"這個外送機車維庭比例逐年上升工會也判開放更多臨庭區然後交通部、運營院所也認為有其必要性不過劃設屬於地方自治權限那問題來了喔你交通部說的 要啦 要設啦但是這是地方的管理啦"},{"start":19985.016,"end":20000.966,"text":"這跟宿舍跟寶庭你檢討這件事道理一樣嘛到底是誰要管 市政部要管還是就授權給地方政府去管會不會一國22個字然後有些地方該就像北農趕快設置這個外送平台的這個停車的一個專屬的位置那有的縣市就不設"},{"start":20011.396,"end":20017.037,"text":"那我們這個火力如果定出來這些都沒有兼顧到那這個火力到底是適合哪個縣市用"},{"start":20019.482,"end":20041.886,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個其實這個議題其實不是在這裡面發生的你擴大一點來看的話其實現在有關很多的貨運業者在運送的時候也經常會面臨到適當的地方去停車來做相關的配送所以這一部分的交通部其實在這應該是在最近幾年大概都已經有在請各也就是這裡講到因為"},{"start":20042.406,"end":20067.05,"text":"很多的交通管理事項的劃設等等是在地方所以大概都是跟地方政府大家共同來討論希望地方政府能夠去劃設相關的一個停等區或是黃線的部分開放紅線讓黃線可以去臨時停車這個大概都是持續在檢討中那這一部分如果以後在做外送員管理的時候我們大概也會就這一部分來特別加以注意"},{"start":20067.418,"end":20090.629,"text":"不 你們這幾年有討論嘛但是這幾年這些事情持續不斷的在發生嘛剛剛你有講的有幾個像宅便啊什麼都放進來 持續喔所以我們可以發現很多的縣市大概都有劃設這種貨運的停等區啊或是等等的都有這樣類似像剛才你講的那個對 所以有些縣市有劃嘛那等於就是有些縣市還沒有劃嘛你們討論這幾年之後還是一國多治嘛這也是事實啊"},{"start":20091.369,"end":20114.93,"text":"這個我們再來要求你們要求是要到什麼時候才可以中華民國針對這種外送員還有相關像你所提到的宅便等等等這些運送業有一個依照法律事實規範劃設出來的這樣的一個卸貨區還是送貨區還是一個停等區要多久時間嗎"},{"start":20116.651,"end":20129.717,"text":"這個因為還是一樣啦因為要跟地方政府大家共同來討論但是我們會來我知道你要跟地方政府來討論我們會在相關的會議裡頭來做要求或者是相關的這個場合上來跟地方政府共同來討論"},{"start":20131.827,"end":20158.897,"text":"因為這個是不可能說我時間到了啦因為我們現在就是要訂這個新華嘛對不對然後我們回歸到頭來先講外送員的相關的這樣權利問題的情況之下你這些一併要考慮進去啦你考慮進去的時候如果你又複製過去的那個貨運的還是宅便的情況之下好像之前事情處理不好延伸到現在訂了新的法律一樣還是處理不好啊"},{"start":20160.012,"end":20181.539,"text":"還是會這樣發生啊 還是會一國多治啊我今天來只是要提醒這樣的事情那你們應該明確跟我講說 你跟勞動部跟我們經濟部可以一個月內針對這樣的事情我們有一套很完整的制度 到時候會入華會真正的來保障這些外送員的相關的一些權利啊應該是這樣才對嘛"},{"start":20182.925,"end":20207.738,"text":"委員剛才所提到的這些需要在法律面來加以補強或是加以規定的部分剛才部長有特別提到後專法的時候他會整個我想我們會有相關的一個要求專法裡面還是一定有你交通部所佔的比重啦這是跑不掉的啦一看就很清楚嘛"},{"start":20208.959,"end":20212.791,"text":"我們會把這樣的委員剛才提到的需要考慮的事項在這專法裡頭來預規範"},{"start":20214.925,"end":20243.885,"text":"我是真的不要每天都好像這個外送員還是這個用路人還是相關的這些業別好像大家都在拚運氣活文就到時薪 拍文就到了你就到紅單 拍文你就要上去關不要搞到最後成這個樣子好不好我請部長 社長還有我們的經濟部三發展組是不是一個月內"},{"start":20244.965,"end":20255.873,"text":"能不能討論出更正完備的這樣相關的一些規範跟保障好不好 可以吧可以 好 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長"},{"start":20277.967,"end":20302.509,"text":"部長好部長千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講師說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本是吧對行政部門的版本希望在三個月內希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜議題而是已經長達了數年了"},{"start":20305.249,"end":20331.024,"text":"過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題"},{"start":20331.984,"end":20346.858,"text":"这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含瓜更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责"},{"start":20347.839,"end":20367.675,"text":"是不是是我们的确认为其实可以有更多规范化空间甚至有更多政策跟法规工具可以使用因为这里面确实涉及到多元的利害相关方好那这也是为什么其实很需要跨部会的分工所以迟到总比不到好啦今天愿意也说要三个月不过本席提醒"},{"start":20368.175,"end":20384.703,"text":"因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論"},{"start":20386.624,"end":20410.838,"text":"那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實它的修訂它的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來得高"},{"start":20413.439,"end":20430.915,"text":"所以包括他的整個的立法的架構跟立法的技術這件事情我們是非常願意跟委員來做好好的討論尤其是在這個法規的修訂上面我自己是秉持這裡面絕對沒有什麼分什麼黨派的我覺得能夠把這個法規"},{"start":20432.276,"end":20457.149,"text":"就像委員說的真的是一段時間下來大家終於覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣"},{"start":20458.65,"end":20478.466,"text":"今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳工部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳工部的职长上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里"},{"start":20479.648,"end":20506.622,"text":"所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本"},{"start":20507.984,"end":20529.826,"text":"我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞但我現在越來越相信真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧"},{"start":20531.167,"end":20549.988,"text":"来 部长两个议题我直接就请教因为上午有看到你有答询的时候讲是说希望薪资的一个保障是外送员所在意的嘛对不对你又讲说每一单平台单笔扣运费应该要高于最低工资薪资"},{"start":20551.138,"end":20576.429,"text":"我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限"},{"start":20577.728,"end":20592.107,"text":"那这个上限处理的是平台跟消费者外送员期待的就是至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了"},{"start":20593.188,"end":20617.776,"text":"当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时期对"},{"start":20618.556,"end":20643.886,"text":"每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196元明年就196元換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊"},{"start":20646.564,"end":20662.797,"text":"你看 這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪"},{"start":20664.509,"end":20679.425,"text":"我跟委員說當然是實質的服務期間就是實質的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪所以是不是就跟"},{"start":20681.772,"end":20707.507,"text":"外界理解又不同了因為你今天上午講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是 部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點"},{"start":20709.246,"end":20729.675,"text":"保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就是說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係它是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的"},{"start":20730.782,"end":20757.778,"text":"合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障現行他是以所謂的團體傷害險來cover而且是規範的時間是接單的接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了"},{"start":20759.554,"end":20774.745,"text":"跟文說明你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的"},{"start":20775.646,"end":20803.924,"text":"第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險"},{"start":20806.448,"end":20829.207,"text":"所以现在这个我们会朝向第一个他一定要有伤害保险第二个伤害保险以外那尤其是外送人会特别在意的是安全上的问题是这我们都理解所以我们会这样保障他的安全是用灾保所以还要再增加灾保对好那另外还有灾保保障的时间平台要帮忙付保费好那保障的时间"},{"start":20830.587,"end":20855.055,"text":"總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中"},{"start":20856.536,"end":20879.215,"text":"所以你未來就會變成是什麼就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP只要沒有人給我單我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子"},{"start":20880.452,"end":20897.754,"text":"跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費對 目前你看 部長說對不起 請教您是請教您是勞動法務司嗎"},{"start":20899.741,"end":20905.245,"text":"保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是"},{"start":20915.832,"end":20936.051,"text":"這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛"},{"start":20936.471,"end":20957.792,"text":"跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者"},{"start":20958.793,"end":20970.728,"text":"七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算"},{"start":20971.868,"end":20992.706,"text":"部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外眾平台一定要"},{"start":20994.623,"end":21018.335,"text":"對付它不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者 外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和 頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明 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圖圈基委員不在"},{"start":21118.277,"end":21147.197,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一委員張志倫委員林佩翔委員圖權及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或先補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定三"},{"start":21148.078,"end":21161.401,"text":"外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等六案另則其繼續審查本次會議記錄會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16971","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d8a46bec1ad1976d360fe77b851cc70d10aa126c40303dc270da6d3d47221e2775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月22日及23日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-22T08:36:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T12:32:00+08:00","duration":14157,"影片長度":"03:55:57","委員發言時間":"08:36:03 - 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委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1503.283,"end":1510.718,"text":"三、對於委員諮詢要求提供相關資料後未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以順便答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1513.4,"end":1538.615,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處因為我們現在在場委員未達議決人數三人我們議事錄暫不確定今天的議程是邀請國家科學及技術委員會吳主任委員列席報告業務概況並被質詢因為委員都還沒有到我們先來介紹與會官員國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文吳主委"},{"start":1540.28,"end":1564.436,"text":"副主任委員林法正林副主委副主任委員蘇政剛蘇副主委主任秘書林廣宏主任秘書執行秘書張正豪國家科學及技術委員會綜合規劃處副處長賴盈宇資產及技能科學及永續研究發展處處長賴明志"},{"start":1567.113,"end":1591.712,"text":"工程技術研究發展處處長洪樂文生命科學研究發展處處長楊台鴻人文及社會科學研究發展處處長黃俊儒科教發展及國際合作處副處長龔季康前瞻及應用科技處處長蔡妙慈產學及園區業務處處長林德昇"},{"start":1595.308,"end":1613.091,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會秘書處處長黃玉清國家科學及技術委員會人事處處長林妍曾國家科學及技術委員會政風處處長方純安主計處處長廖育燕資訊處處長周子源法規會執行秘書張益榮"},{"start":1623.991,"end":1648.909,"text":"研究誠信辦公室主任汪庭安新竹科學園區管理局局長胡世明中部科學園區管理局局長許茂興南部科學園區管理局局長鄭秀榮行政法人國家災害防救科技中心主任陳鴻宇行政法人國家太空中心主任吳宗信"},{"start":1650.918,"end":1668.368,"text":"財團法人國家實驗研究院院長蔡弘瑩財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心主任徐嘉鴻以上是我們今天與會的官員現在請國科會五主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":1678.69,"end":1691.666,"text":"召委各位委員大家好感謝各位委員關心國家科技發展並支持國科會的科技政策很榮幸列席大院教育及文化委員會進行業務報告"},{"start":1694.448,"end":1715.894,"text":"面對美國關稅議題、極端氣候與AI浪潮等全球性的挑戰,我國正處於科技進逐與產業升級的關鍵時刻。國會將秉持信賴溝通務實的核心理念,籌劃國家未來的全章科技藍圖,以維持台灣的優勢科技地位。"},{"start":1717.338,"end":1745.948,"text":"引领我国在遍及下突破创新仅就当前施政重点说明如后首先科技厚植国力强化台湾韧性持续发扬半导体优势积极投入人工智慧次世代通讯太空卫星智慧机器人等前瞻领域掌握关键技术自主性强化民主供应链韧性提高台湾科技整体国力"},{"start":1747.506,"end":1773.887,"text":"为发展自主AI系统,跨部位合作打造台湾智慧系统整合制造平台,聚焦需求分析及系统自主设计,号召产学员加入成为供应链伙伴。透过跨域系统整合,提供结合AI与晶片专业的一站式服务,协助各行各业实现智慧创新转型并提升竞争力。"},{"start":1774.989,"end":1798.257,"text":"此外,五大信貸產業之一的次世代通信產業已有具體進展。國會提出次世代通信科技發展方案,整合產官學員共同佈局通信產業,透過促進關鍵應用、建構實驗網加速研發、強化產業生態系跨部門協作等策略。"},{"start":1799.639,"end":1818.177,"text":"包括协助业者开发通信晶片关键零组件与通信系统等产品提升技术自主性同时加强法规人才培育并与国际大型低轨卫星公司建立紧密合作强化国家通信科技的未来实力"},{"start":1819.352,"end":1846.972,"text":"有关与次世代通信息息相关的太空领域细海科研火箭发射场域组装场与控制中心已于今年7月27日启用使未来的火箭研发团队能在细海完成从设计、组装、测试到发射控制的整套流程此外我国自主研发的福卫八号也预计近期发射升空"},{"start":1848.624,"end":1860.716,"text":"將能提高遙測地表影像的能力與效率藉由打造自主衛星的過程來培育國內太空領域人才帶動台灣太空科技及產業的發展"},{"start":1863.049,"end":1881.523,"text":"凭借半导体及通信科技的坚实基础,我国发展智慧机器人产业拥有先天优势。国科会已提出智慧机器人产业推动方案,预期达成系统创新、产值提升、社会普及三大目标。"},{"start":1882.748,"end":1908.773,"text":"其能推升臺灣在全球智慧機器人產業的關鍵地位第二 科技回應社會 助力臺灣安康以科技洞察並回應人民需求藉由創新應用協助解決社會議題例如將半導體優勢與生醫領域緊密結合增進國人健康活力 更善用AI等災防應用強化社會抗災能力"},{"start":1909.773,"end":1925.761,"text":"於健康領域打造在宅醫療生態系以科技輔助基層醫護服務結合家戶需求拓展市場就由中央到地方從醫學中心到基層診所密切合作"},{"start":1926.98,"end":1956.187,"text":"共同以科技赋能减轻医护负担促进国产医材普及应用增进民众生活品质另外加速在高龄照护领域导入智慧科技缓解照护人力不足等困境未来国科会更将整合各部会资源创造内需市场临选优质供应链伙伴组成国家队拓展全球高龄市场"},{"start":1958.359,"end":1976.614,"text":"在災防领域,国会长期投入灾害科学、预警系统与风险治理的研究,面对台湾各种复合型灾害,在灾前准备、灾中应变与灾后复原各阶段均发挥极为关键的角色。"},{"start":1977.58,"end":2003.386,"text":"以具體作為貢獻全台防救災任性體系例如強化六大都會區地震預警系統效能提供預警即時性與民眾反應時間完成三維全災害資訊系統開發提供具地區性與客製化的精準災害資訊服務第三 科技引領創新"},{"start":2005.066,"end":2020.581,"text":"落实均衡台湾为推升台湾在半导体与AI创新生态系中的关键地位国科会举办2025IC台湾Grand Challenge吸引来自美、英、法等国新创团队落地台湾"},{"start":2021.582,"end":2041.418,"text":"同时加速算力基础建设以开发台湾AI RAP平台协助企业及新创团队快速应用加速AI导入各行各业推动数位转型升级另外科学园区各项开发与扩建均依规划顺利推动中"},{"start":2042.259,"end":2059.585,"text":"陆续引导高科技厂商进驻与群聚共同带动科技产业发展增进国人就业机会高科时中也在114年度开学形成优质生活圈"},{"start":2060.512,"end":2084.48,"text":"未來科學園區將提倡全新生態園區概念主動規劃削減排放量研修排放標準增加再生水及再生能源使用比例納入生物多用性等措施其兼顧經濟發展與環境攜手打造宜居與創新的永續科學園區"},{"start":2085.78,"end":2114.241,"text":"最後力挺基礎研究向下科普扎根厚實基礎研究培育多元人才是國家發展及社會創新的泉源國科會持續透過補助研究計畫表彰結束貢獻等措施來完善科研與人培環境並推廣全民科普今年Kids Science首度規劃串聯科普環島列車安排學童在參與列車車廂及站點活動後"},{"start":2116.593,"end":2121.621,"text":"赴科研场域参观体验延伸为一日科学之旅"},{"start":2123.46,"end":2146.868,"text":"國會持續以科技研發驅動關鍵國力提升,與各部會通力合作投入政府五大現代產業、六大區域旗艦計畫、AI新十大建設等相關科技項目,穩步實現行行有智慧、人人用AI的願景,將打造台灣成為人工智慧之島,實現均衡、韌性且健康的台灣。謝謝。"},{"start":2151.28,"end":2178.851,"text":"謝謝主委報告請回座我們在場委員已經有達三人以上我們先來確定議事錄請問各位委員上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那我們就議事錄確定我們先介紹一下現在在場的委員林沛翔委員劉淑冰委員"},{"start":2184.346,"end":2186.138,"text":"喔 她又離開 OK OK 好那"},{"start":2189.72,"end":2218.292,"text":"現在我們要進行詢答每位委員出席委員質詢時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間是上午10點30分委員如果有臨時停案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員范雲質詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位林佩祥委員質詢"},{"start":2225.233,"end":2246.089,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手 手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體 另外一個就是我們的太空通訊"},{"start":2247.372,"end":2273.584,"text":"不过在面对日记升高的国际威胁的时候本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护 韧性建构缺乏清晰 比较具体的部署"},{"start":2275.138,"end":2291.536,"text":"我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透"},{"start":2295.64,"end":2304.044,"text":"甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國歌會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大"},{"start":2312.668,"end":2321.874,"text":"不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张"},{"start":2344.269,"end":2365.301,"text":"我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是實在硬體的治安,利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,"},{"start":2366.121,"end":2382.344,"text":"我们都会支持所以全部都含在里面主委因为比较尴尬的点是在于半导体有人称我记得有媒体称是为半导体产业在台湾已经从细钝变成和氏币人人欲得知"},{"start":2382.865,"end":2412.505,"text":"所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为作最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何"},{"start":2413.826,"end":2428.104,"text":"我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会"},{"start":2429.105,"end":2453.322,"text":"愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在萧副总统讲的ICT外语是合理的咯"},{"start":2453.982,"end":2473.977,"text":"我們的技術委員不用擔心我們的技術絕對是跟有台灣沒有從來沒有改變這個態度我們的研發絕對是在台灣吳助委您認為蕭副總統講的ICT產業外移這是好還是壞事蕭總統講的不是外移我們是要擴散我們的實力我們當然要做生意"},{"start":2474.958,"end":2492.668,"text":"我們現在半導體產業因為美國非常龐大的市場我只是單純從一個科技打關者的角度來看請問這是好還是壞是好的因為台灣如果不往外去擴散的話我們的實力沒有辦法展現到全世界各個角落"},{"start":2493.388,"end":2495.369,"text":"所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力"},{"start":2523.628,"end":2538.557,"text":"沒有惡意不惡意只有威脅只有威逼利誘拐騙偷搶沒有所值要在合法可是法所以我為什麼說國際化因為International Law是國際每個國家都說它自己是合法的"},{"start":2538.937,"end":2553.879,"text":"像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法但是合不合中华民国法律不合"},{"start":2554.58,"end":2570.591,"text":"所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面"},{"start":2571.371,"end":2591.902,"text":"那這一點來講身為國科會主委的吳主委您就必須要再三考慮我們現在做的所有作為到底是保護台灣的產業呢還是在實質上在削弱我們台灣的產業國科會的業務範圍我們發展科學園區我們投入資源做科技研發我們回到金創計畫好了好"},{"start":2593.143,"end":2613.639,"text":"我们去问一下金创计划那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争"},{"start":2615.04,"end":2642.618,"text":"這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移"},{"start":2643.154,"end":2657.775,"text":"但是我们在生意上一定要拓展台湾的实力这就是我现在等一下要问到的我们一直在讲我们最先进的技术我们原发技术都是在台湾那主委半导体产业最核心的资产是什么人"},{"start":2658.601,"end":2684.649,"text":"那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢"},{"start":2685.222,"end":2699.837,"text":"我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国科会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是"},{"start":2700.538,"end":2718.048,"text":"我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力"},{"start":2718.348,"end":2732.469,"text":"其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT產業那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移是一種國家實力的對外延展的時候那不好意思我先讓我講完"},{"start":2733.91,"end":2759.809,"text":"因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化我們是這樣講"},{"start":2761.67,"end":2784.977,"text":"我們這樣講當如果說我在美國待過很久一陣時間當美國如果你能拿美國簽證你能在美國落地生根的時候你就會在美國落地生根因為台灣我還沒講我們很多美國落地生根又回到台灣來貢獻的也非常多新資的結構失衡大量流向業界這個不是事實啦我們在台灣在增加當中我們在中科南科都在持續在擴敞"},{"start":2786.217,"end":2804.002,"text":"最不可能不可能是空洞化要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":2807.043,"end":2834.162,"text":"那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途"},{"start":2834.542,"end":2848.617,"text":"主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎"},{"start":2850.298,"end":2876.238,"text":"他到台湾来他也要聘用台湾的人才对可是我们比较起来我们到美国去也是聘用美国人才外部的人才跟我们我们把我们最互相交流把我们最优质的人才往美国送然后把外国人才进来的时候并不是他们最优秀的人才的时候我不同意委员的讲话我觉得这件事是很危险的事情我们不是把人才往美国送不是这样讲话我们是要扩充我们的实力我们在美国交汇了当地人才制造"},{"start":2877.058,"end":2905.581,"text":"幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要在全世界做生意當然要往外擴充啊這樣台灣才會更強大啊我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才斷財你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵"},{"start":2908.166,"end":2936.644,"text":"所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術是不是我們台灣人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流"},{"start":2937.364,"end":2955.912,"text":"不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為"},{"start":2957.472,"end":2986.561,"text":"錢給的不夠多心受委屈了那老實說錢給的夠不夠多是所有不管在商業人才裡面最主要的一塊我們台灣的經濟實力會一直不斷的進步可是我們是在跟美國的就業市場拼比我們是在跟美國的就業市場拼比我們是在跟日本的就業市場拼比我們的薪資結構就沒有人家強的時候我們的薪水就沒有人家高的時候我們還期待說用愛國心來一直把台灣人才留住這是對業界是不公平"},{"start":2986.921,"end":3013.053,"text":"我們如果產生不往外擴散惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反"},{"start":3013.813,"end":3041.853,"text":"你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才"},{"start":3042.253,"end":3065.736,"text":"但是當我們的優質人才一批的被因為高薪而去美國的時候我就擔心這樣的存在 而這是趨勢 謝謝好 謝謝沛翔委員 主委請回座如果沛翔委員他這邊質詢的主委沒有回答完整的部分 請他會後再送資料給你接下來請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":3075.487,"end":3101.806,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟我们有请吴主委请主委万文元好好 主委好主委我本期记得在国客会在去年113年的时候12月27号曾经发布过新闻稿指出才化法修正会影响200亿的科技预算有没有这件事有那后来今年有影响吗有今年有影响"},{"start":3103.266,"end":3116.212,"text":"今年有影響我們講的是我那時候講的就是下一年度就是明年啦你去年講的我當然是問你今年有沒有影響嘛所以今年沒有嘛對不對今年有啊因為我們的這個我在講今年的預算執行不是預算編列好不好"},{"start":3118.01,"end":3133.031,"text":"執行沒有影響啦是嗎編列的時候你知道我在問什麼我們就不要用這樣的方式來今天做這個答詢好不好那我們又看到今年的7月16你又再一次說了因為財化法會讓明年的科技運算少200億你有這樣說嗎對不對有好"},{"start":3135.094,"end":3163.259,"text":"那个去年113年的时候其实你当时说会有影响你有提到什么基础科研金创AI太空科技 静林科技都会少但是你看你刚刚回答本席没有影响所以去年列这些出来你去年的12月25号这是113年那列了这些其实事实上在今年没有减少那我们再来看那个今年的时候114年7月16刚刚当然你听我讲完再来报告好不好"},{"start":3164.019,"end":3190.257,"text":"你都不聽你怎麼知道本席要問什麼啊你今天到底答詢怎麼回事啊你的態度比委員還差欸你如果不聽你怎麼知道今天大家要問你什麼對不起所以不是不可以這樣啦主席其實你就是應該要支持官員這樣子因為有時候你們都要用用反面的方法來什麼叫做用反面的方法委員質詢還要你教嗎主席我的時間要先暫停對不起對不起委員這時間真的要暫停這樣要怎麼質詢暫停一下"},{"start":3192.813,"end":3213.179,"text":"那這樣溝通一下啦就是說我們委員會的委員在質詢還要他來教我們用什麼方式嗎對不起那你等一下可以修正不要再用這樣的態度嗎好好 謝謝主席那我們看到今年主委您又說到說我們就是這個編列預算因為財化法又要少200億那我請教一下你這個少200億是少什麼我們今年編的預算後來謝謝我們萬昭委的協助"},{"start":3222.762,"end":3250.25,"text":"我們並沒有少掉很多今年但是我現在擔心的是明年其實是明年你擔心嗎所以是你擔心但你有對外說少200億對不對而且說真的本心不願多做很多什麼政治的聯想7月16大罷免前你再繼續講說這個財化法又要少了200億我是不知道是不是要跟上行政院的腳步但是我從來不認為你是這樣的人所以我們明年的預算有少嗎"},{"start":3251.82,"end":3256.668,"text":"明年預算我們本來編列是1800億但是因為行政院"},{"start":3257.898,"end":3285.419,"text":"整個總預算的額度就不足啦所以我們當然被迫要下降到一千六百多元所以你下修來我們看一下我們現在近五年來這是本席整理你的這個科技預算從一百一十一年一二一三一四一五年年增加每一年都在增加你先看這沒有錯嘛對不對沒有錯就到了一百一十五年我們還是增加呀"},{"start":3286.839,"end":3311.668,"text":"我們一定要快速增加當然增加我們也支持你的預算不是嗎委員會也很支持你的預算我們再來看下一張我們增加你的預算我們支持你的預算但你看到你自己看這個決算你根本錢也用不完你111年還剩餘了一億五千多萬那112年還剩五億八千多萬你113年還是剩一億多萬你根本用不完你執行率其實也不夠好報告委員"},{"start":3313.208,"end":3337.248,"text":"报告委员有时候会有剩余的原因是不可抗力的因素我同意啊像比如说我们在做太空那个主委我本席跟你讲我今天不是要跟你讨论说你预算为什么要少变200亿我也不是要跟你讨论说你决算这个用不完的是哪些东西但我现在要告诉你说在预算上面你去年说少200今年说少200事实上没有嘛"},{"start":3337.708,"end":3362.76,"text":"事实上不但是一直在增加而且你的这个决算也没有用完我想今天要跟你提的就是这个第一个预算增加第二个过去三年我觉得这个你的执行也没有到百分之百那当然您刚刚有提到财化法之后行政院呢这个就是整个去做了一些调节以后所以呢你今天不敢编到1800你编1600嘛那就奇怪了为什么我们行政院呢对我们的这个国防部就这么好"},{"start":3363.5,"end":3375.09,"text":"國防部他就增加啊 不斷的增加啊我昨天也問了 我今天也問了教育部部長啊大家都來買一張椅子五萬塊嘛 對不對莫名其妙國防部增加這樣難道是國防部的部長比較會捍衛他的預算嗎"},{"start":3376.317,"end":3405.068,"text":"是不是所以我想这一点你也不用回答你去想一想你去想想这样对还是不对但是说真的主委你在本席的心中都不是那种意识形态的人你是一个来认真做事的人但我希望就不要跟这些事情沾上边再来我想也是要接着刚刚我们林沛翔委员问的我们深入一点来问我们看到郑立军副院长他在完成了台美第五轮的实职磋商之后"},{"start":3405.968,"end":3424.843,"text":"那他有提就針對擴大對美的投資他提出了要協助美方建立台灣模式的產業聚落我剛看到這一句話的時候其實我有點擔心我也很shock為什麼我們一個台積電過去不夠他還要變成是整個產業聚落"},{"start":3426.704,"end":3453.171,"text":"我正在覺得納悶的時候我們蕭美琴副總統她接受外媒的訪問就直接講說台灣已經承諾美國要投資晶片產業不僅台積電還包括整個生態系就產業鏈全部要過去這就是他們說的產業聚落如果是這樣的說法跟這樣的文字其實讓國人非常的擔心那我想主委應該有非常關心這件事情你有參與相關的會議嗎這樣的結果你是贊成還是反對"},{"start":3455.766,"end":3478.552,"text":"這個只是講法的問題我跟委員解釋一下所以你的意思是說這是副院長跟副總統講法不好不是不是講法不好啦你說講法的問題啊我跟委員解釋一下行政院其實在政府院長領軍在跟美國做談判的過程當中行政院其實有好幾度邀請台灣的產業界來討論討論相關的到美國投資的議題"},{"start":3482.554,"end":3496.615,"text":"因為有關稅的問題存在所以產業界就會考慮到說是不是應該到美國投資我知道啦 主委本席就是請教您嘛這個相關的會議您曾經參加過嗎有參加過 行政院的會議我參加過那這樣說吧 你是認同嗎"},{"start":3498.317,"end":3525.745,"text":"我認同我跟委員報告原因是什麼是因為產業界認為如果政府不協助我們的產業界把台灣非常有效率的聚落群聚我們開發工業區科技工業區科學園區等等這種經驗能夠組成國家隊到美國去一起去投資的話他們個別去效率是不高的主委啊 我都不懂了什麼個別去 群體去到底為什麼要去啊"},{"start":3526.485,"end":3542.594,"text":"這本來是我們的護國神山我跟委員報告我今天沒有跟你討論個別去 群體去大家一起去比較互相有安全你這個講法很奇怪但我請教一下你覺得我們整個這樣主委我先問你你覺得我們不管是你剛剛說的個別去 群體去什麼產業聚合區會不會消落"},{"start":3550.118,"end":3558.467,"text":"會不會削弱我國自己半導體的競爭力就是不會嘛所以你能夠保證台積電等這些高科技的產業他們的技術絕對不會外流不會"},{"start":3560.687,"end":3589.48,"text":"你可以保證我保證你拿什麼保證廠商為什麼要把他技術外流呢有時候不是廠商要外流啊這有很多的因素在啊是不是台積電主委你不能太一廂情願真的你不能太一廂情願我覺得你有這個看法我尊重但是實際會不會產生我們所擔憂的事情不是不無可能的所以我們要做風險管控我們要組國家隊去就是為了要保護他們"},{"start":3590.837,"end":3601.907,"text":"他們不去不就沒事了嗎他們今天不去不就沒事了嗎他如果不去他在台灣他覺得他可能會虧本因為有關稅的議題當時剛去的時候還沒有在講關稅喔"},{"start":3606.556,"end":3628.97,"text":"有啦 已經在講了啦沒有 主委啊 所以你的意思是說現在你的意思是說如果台積電這些高科技的這些產業留在台灣就沒有發展了 你的意思是這樣嗎我們講的是台積電生態系是指的它的供應鏈供應鏈廠商要不要取得利益我認為啦 就是今天你有這麼執著的這樣子的看法當然啦 我是不知道您真的是這樣的看法還是不好"},{"start":3630.831,"end":3657.97,"text":"不好去打臉高層不過呢沒有沒有這是我們行政院的政策今天我想有很多的委員都會在這上面跟你做提醒畢竟你是我們這個主管我們所有科技這是最高的一個單位所以這些我們所有的提醒這些風險的這個評估我希望你回去的時候還是要細細去咀嚼我們今天所有講的議題那同時剛才談到人才外流這件事當然你也信誓旦旦說人才絕對不會外流但我必須要講"},{"start":3658.61,"end":3684.341,"text":"我们过去也花了很多的时间跟精力我们教委会也支持很多的预算我们做人才的培养可是你说人才都不会外流吗人才是只有跟他交流吗我想本行没有那么乐观你看我们花这么多钱来培养可是今天不但台积电去整个产业链要去你想我们培养出来的人才留在台湾无用武之地所以我想这一点当然你刚刚回答配项委员我也有听"},{"start":3685.122,"end":3691.594,"text":"那我希望你把今天我们给你的想法看法不同的角度回去其实还是要稍微去了解一下"},{"start":3692.58,"end":3721.912,"text":"你願意嗎謝謝委員指教接下來還有一點時間我想針對這一次這個艷澀湖的事件我們李鴻元部長有在講他說這此類高風險的地質災害政府應該要統合各部門的研究跟應變能力他也指出說我們現在我們都知道是農業部內政部還有經濟部這些單位在進行相關的研究可是資源重疊效率不好所以他建議要由國科會出面整合這一點你怎麼看"},{"start":3724.848,"end":3741.601,"text":"這個講法是好的是對的但是我們已經在做了我們國科會下面的國家災防中心就是在整合這些資訊我們所有部會的監測資料會匯整到我們國家災防中心來我們長期在做資料的分析"},{"start":3743.382,"end":3758.253,"text":"提供包含資訊跟決策的情報我知道你們已經有在做但我認為就是說參考剛剛李鴻元部長你也說對那我覺得我們高度要再拉起來然後那個寬度也要再拉寬那你剛剛講那個資訊我想最後一點"},{"start":3760.775,"end":3781.449,"text":"國科會所屬的災防科技中心喔在這一次的災害當中9月4號就已經建置了馬太安溪的驗射壺監測系統沒有錯嘛 對不對那9月21號的時候呢在這個應變中心的中央災害應變中心第二次跟第三次會議當中你有提到第二次的時候下午兩點你說要匡列兩鄉四村里275人的數據對嗎"},{"start":3783.67,"end":3797.627,"text":"是的好 但是呢隔沒有四個小時下午六點你把它匡列變成三鄉十二村裡一千八百戶對不對我請我們陳主任來回答所以主委不曉得嗎我曉得但是他細節他非常清楚好"},{"start":3799.082,"end":3827.258,"text":"委員你好我想在9月21號的上午我只想要問這兩個數字對還是不對這個第三次的這一個部分是對的現在目前出來的這兩個數字是對的嘛那本期就要問了短短四個小時為什麼數字落差這麼大說真的數字落差這麼大我相信其實不管你要叫地方去做疏散這是非常高非常困難的一件事情那我們提供這個數據的時間跟正確性就很重要可以簡單說明嗎"},{"start":3828.779,"end":3854.382,"text":"我們在三點鐘的時候有召開所有部會的會議然後還有跟縣政府還有跟地方光復慣容還有那個鄉鎮包括鳳林一起開會開視訊然後我們已經決定因為那個李教授你簡單打好不好我們周圍都站起來很簡單打那台大團隊已經把這些東西都已經告訴我們所以我們就跟地方聯絡所以我們劃出了目前這個部分"},{"start":3855.683,"end":3876.012,"text":"三個鄉鎮 十二個村 總共1800好了 我想這個有答跟沒答一樣我只有一個期許我覺得像這麼重大一個事件其實未來我們怎麼強化自己更精準的監測那更詳細的數字那效率跟速度我就再把它提升這個是我對國科會的期許 好嗎所以我們會繼續努力 謝謝委員謝謝萬美林委員 官務員請回座現在請柯之溫委員質詢"},{"start":3891.092,"end":3891.833,"text":"我們是請主委請主委"},{"start":3897.981,"end":3923.768,"text":"科委委员好主委好你讲到人才的培养我看前面两个委员又让你火气出来其实主委你还是可以有一个比较用你自己自身的经验来回应这个问题在我们那个年代我们到美国去念书我们都有拿到奖学金我们都拿到奖学金的时候美国也没有要求我们要不要留下来对不对我们只要是那个环境可以然后我们如果有合法的一个签证我们就会有自我的一个选择"},{"start":3924.248,"end":3940.483,"text":"没错嘛而且所有的人才进进出出一个国家能够花费这么多钱他也没有跟你签任何的终身约他们是见过那个部分所以也不应该去argue到底是薪资好美国薪资很好美国的税也很高美国还有文化种族还有种种的"},{"start":3940.563,"end":3960.238,"text":"一些的问题不是薪资好他就会愿意留在那个地方而且当我们在培养很多外国人到我们这边来我们也是希望能够有台湾的经验他至于是不是要出到他们自己的原始国家那也不是我们所可以掌控的这是一个人才互通我想特别是在高级人才里面大家共同的语言没错吧这个我同意"},{"start":3960.478,"end":3985.193,"text":"完全嘛所以說你就把你自身經營當然說已經有很多美國公司也想recruit你啊可是你最後還是決定回到台灣也有你的堅持嘛所以人才的互通我想在這全世界都是一樣的你用這個角度的利基點不用去辯論到底是如何你知道耗費太多時間這點你同意嗎好不好但我還是要來問一下人才的問題啊因為最主要是Trump他實在太unpredictable他的這些對於這個所謂的"},{"start":3986.494,"end":4000.009,"text":"美国其实是最重视人才融入的地方它因为移民的政策还有包括签证的问题的确让很多世界很多国家就很想把这些人才弄出去嘛所以你可以看到嘛中国启动的K签证的计划欧盟1600亿"},{"start":4001.791,"end":4027.53,"text":"然后日本又是7亿然后韩国也退出了新加坡很多人想去他就完全取消了这个working permit这样的要求台湾我们目前来说我刚刚特别提到的有没有提供一个好的环境那才是留住人才最重要的那在这个布局当中请问国科会在1600亿的这样子的预算当中你到底有哪些因应的策略相对于其他国家"},{"start":4030.788,"end":4045.465,"text":"台湾要吸引人才进来从国外进来的话当然还有很多的配套措施要做但是在科技研发的部分我们当然现在是积极以我们办的其实我觉得我们台湾其实你最需要是我们的team"},{"start":4045.845,"end":4063.495,"text":"还有很多年轻的科技人才要进来我随便举个例子来说他愿意进住进来孩子的因素搞不好取得很好啊如果我的小孩能够在这个地方有个完整的环境等等之类的那你看我就忍不住要提到了我们很多的这个实验高中特别在我们的陆组的实验高中现在招生不足哎"},{"start":4063.755,"end":4092.717,"text":"新族是每個人都搶得進去我們陸族沒有人要進去那你就去思考一下為什麼會是這樣遭都遭不滿因為呢他剛要進駐的時候呢他用我們的一個幼昌國中根本就不是一個for這一群高級人才要進來的你當你沒有辦法配套沒有讓孩子有一個好的部分裡面他其實會降低很多的誘因我只是提醒這個主委很多因素不是只有一個薪資旁邊的配套你把它處理好那是我們的角色我們的責任"},{"start":4093.157,"end":4102.241,"text":"好不好 我只是提供這個部分給你了解 我們跟高雄市政府是 你這個部分你看連招生部我們也覺得你這邊是要讓人家來 孩子最重要因為是第一年 建設還在進行對 建設還在做 所以你要加速加快這才好啦 好 我的時間還剩下來 我們就回去來看我們的數據提到人才 我們也花了一些錢但是你看你的核定的部分"},{"start":4117.367,"end":4135.741,"text":"1 1 2 1 1 3你看你所核定的這個層面當中你到底有沒有做一些所謂的這個後續的一個追蹤你看1 1 3 1 4各補助六千萬實習生每天一千元最多補助九十九十天然後呢最高是九萬那這些所謂外籍人才呢我們這邊大概是從哪些國家進來的最多哪些國家對啊"},{"start":4142.267,"end":4167.463,"text":"哪里印度印度印度他本身的科技就很强了他来我们这个地方但是你做这些东西你没有后续里面他们都有多少人实习完毕之后对台湾因为我们钱花出去我刚刚虽然讲人才交流但是你还是要让他们对台湾还是有留下一些他后续的绩效你目前为止我说实在我没有看到任何的报告好像现在才要开始来做执行还有呢我再看看"},{"start":4168.163,"end":4183.638,"text":"你要去追蹤還有包括你看你目前來說一日補助了284一餐補助了560個到底有多少人會留下來就讀或是就業目前為止我也沒有看到你們給我任何的詳細的這就是錢花出去我沒有看到績效啊對不對"},{"start":4185.579,"end":4213.817,"text":"主委我会让你有机会讲然后我们再看看同样是你看延揽客座科技人才这几十年来你的人才的人数很明显下降的趋势所以表示刚刚前面两位委员不是没有道理的他们是担心我们的人才培养好到国外去人家不回来但是我担心的是我们给那么多人请他留下来人家也不想留包括你的下降趋势所以我们台湾的确在诱因的部分里面是差其他国家是差很多这是我们要面对的现实"},{"start":4214.605,"end":4236.081,"text":"我們其實不是說有一直下降都是大概維持這個數字但是很多我們其實有增加人來但是他們進到業界的會比較多我要有數字我還要有數據因為這個部分裡面我們也是交流我不想違反我前面所講交流當中你的績效在哪裡我們目前沒有看到可是數字裡面顯然是一個下降而且"},{"start":4237.121,"end":4264.978,"text":"报告委员就是我们有努力在调查但是台湾是一个自由民主国家我们问他他不见得会讲他到哪个地方工作那你就要克服就像我们调查我们毕业生的就业部分我们要克服但是我们可以从老委会那边投保的老保的部分来做你有很多方法来你是国科会你一定有方法我只是提出来我需要看到一些的绩效而且我还这边让我想到的你刚刚望美玲委员讲的我本来事实真的是觉得很"},{"start":4265.678,"end":4292.125,"text":"那個主委你真的是從科技從科技來真的講話我們還是距離這個政治遠一點今年並沒有減少200億明年1600億減少200億比你預估的1800億少但還是史上最高的國科會的預算雖然我知道你有很多事情要做但是你的重點是要跟你的行政院長去要為什麼創造史上最高力國防預算沒有減我們的國科會減"},{"start":4294.085,"end":4321.135,"text":"所以目前不是在裁划法是你行政院沒給你這麼多錢你要冤有頭債有主你只要把裁划法弄出來更講出來難道科技不上普發一萬嗎主委這不是你應該說的好嗎我們要就實來去講你這樣會讓很多的委員會跳腳不是裁划法問題是政府對於很多的priority沒有把你們放在這邊所以才給你減200億要把它澄清清楚"},{"start":4323.007,"end":4336.665,"text":"其實我指的是說今年年初其實上個會期委員也在問說今年沒有是明年會有影響那明年你的預算還是史上最多所以呢但不是問題不在才化法"},{"start":4337.346,"end":4361.112,"text":"主委 問題不在才化法是行政院的Priority沒有把你放在跟國防跟其他一樣多我只是幫助你把事情釐清所以希望你在未來講話的過程當中不要製造國會會很多額外你要去解釋的負擔好不好這樣啦 跟你說一下啦來 接下來還是講了這麼多的錢我們還是要問到一個非常你們的管理的問題郭研院院長有沒有在蔡院長在這裡"},{"start":4364.167,"end":4368.398,"text":"來 這部長 所長這都要知道一下你們國研院是不是有對於離職作業辦法有這個所謂的迴避原則應該有吧"},{"start":4373.252,"end":4394.493,"text":"有的嗎對不對然後呢你們中心要聘那我就請問啊你們這下面有一個生物中心過去不是這個名字中心主任聘清潔為有幾職的法律諮詢顧問還有中心的配偶在你們願聘當中是當顧問可是長期在你們中心裡面所有的事情都在你們中心請問你有沒有違反這樣的作業原則請問有沒有"},{"start":4395.445,"end":4408.009,"text":"報告委員因為願聘的顧問因為國務院底下有七個中心那實際上在技術專業上有必要的時候會跟中心一起互動那你有中心互動那你中心互動裡面長期進駐到你們這個中心會不會自達連你們這個回覆原則"},{"start":4413.891,"end":4436.377,"text":"你雖然你的聘騎士你的聘任是在你們院的聘顧問這個人卻長期在這個中心進駐然後呢跟配偶完全在同樣一個中心這是閃避法規啊這完全就是你們自己在這個地方的落實性有沒有有沒有落實先告訴我你如果可以聘親姐姐我有幾職顧問是直系親屬可以親姐姐那你要你們的法務處的處長幹什麼"},{"start":4438.379,"end":4453.548,"text":"你可以先回答这个问题而且我可以一边让你来回答这是你们的法规在这个地方而且呢很多地方还要接付你们的爆料里面你们还常常用你们的自筹款自筹款也是公款你们往下一个你们自筹款里面还可以来做一个"},{"start":4453.988,"end":4477.597,"text":"我研究員今年年底才會從美國回來幫他先添購了1400萬也是讓你們願聘的顧問來專門使用而且這麼貴的這個儀器當中光是做訓練一般人不敢碰觸這都是你們在那使用然後告訴我只要有人一邊說這就叫你們自籌款你們那麼多自籌款你們有沒有違反公務人員的認定你們號稱都是叫自籌款"},{"start":4478.277,"end":4497.538,"text":"自籌款也是公款自籌款可以這樣去用嗎而且呢據說你們還要在這個給你們這個生物中心4年3億元永遠你告訴我會有更多的剩餘款然後每次把它當作自籌款自籌款是這樣使用的嗎院長這個東西你要不要調查清楚只有你們這個生物中心是這樣子嗎還是其他中心也會有"},{"start":4498.888,"end":4523.571,"text":"你要么就有两种选择一个就是修改你们的法规第二个就是就是让你们没有修改法规状况之下你就好好的去测查还有在下面一个在这个过程当中呢你们在实行这个这个兔的安乐死的过程因为药剂不足你让这只兔子然后呢疼痛的到处乱撞然后呢最后然后实际伤害录下来把它当心得报告"},{"start":4524.724,"end":4541.183,"text":"院长如果这件事情让你的Triple Alex知道的话你觉得会不会影响到你们未来在整个地方对动物实验上面的一个部分这都是你所想的里面下面所有里面所发生的所有的问题院长请你一并回应"},{"start":4542.043,"end":4569.379,"text":"是 報告委員第一個部分就有關聘任資深顧問的部分那特別因為這個資深的顧問呢他的專長是在3R那這是現在整個生物科技領域裡面非常重要你可以你聘在院然後你為了躲避原則因為你不能有配偶不能有執行新竹在同一個中心所以你就在院裡面去聘但是他實際的工作地方是在同一個中心是這樣子嗎跟委員報告其實3R的計畫其實每個月是我在負責主持的是院部在負責主持"},{"start":4569.599,"end":4589.424,"text":"你要不要去看看這個主任直系的這個配偶的主任辦公室在這個生物中心所做的每一件事情主持的會議甚至出國都是這個樣子然後說是要自儲款院長你調查清楚而且不是只有這個中心調查清楚你旗下的七個中心有沒有調查清楚因為這是屬於這個部分"},{"start":4590.084,"end":4617.286,"text":"所以主委這件事情也請你為務必督促我需要有一個非常清楚的檢查報告我要嗎 你就是修 你看敢不敢修改你們的法令你不修改法令的話就把你們七個下面的這個中心全部清楚有沒有盡情繁衍的問題有沒有拿著怨顧問的這個問題然後再做完全不是這樣的部分有沒有出國的爆炸有沒有做什麼都完全用你們自籌款我要一併要很清楚的調查報告這已經不是一個中心所提出來主委你可以做得到嗎我請國務院想進"},{"start":4619.588,"end":4648.679,"text":"包括我刚刚说的Triple Alex的这样子的一个实验的部分当初有这个漏针有漏液的这个问题让我们的生物是这样子的方法来惨死这些都是主委这些虽然不是你主辖但这些的管理的原则可以反映出我们在培养这些人才培养这个法规制度里面的一个制度层面这个每个部分我们都要够严谨你才要来告诉我们这个中心是值得大家被信赖的你同意吧同意谢谢委员"},{"start":4650.835,"end":4657.778,"text":"謝謝克珍委員質詢主委請回座接下來請劉書斌張委質詢有請吳主委請吳主委劉委員好"},{"start":4676.192,"end":4696.841,"text":"好 主委好那今天跟你來討論的是在國科會的在預算這部分跟業務報告的內容瓜瓜是跨域統的部分我們看到的是在國科會跟中研院他們在預算的這部分編列當中都有關於叫淨零碳排那國科會這邊有的六項"},{"start":4700.743,"end":4725.5,"text":"中研院也有五項 那兩個共同的部分就是在去碳燃氫跟升值碳匯這部分那我們就想要請問一下主委喔 那您對於跟中研院在六大領域當中有兩項重疊上面的話 在淨零碳去碳燃氫跟升值碳匯這部分的 它在經費跟研究時程上跟成果上面有什麼樣的差異性 可以做一下簡單的說明"},{"start":4726.661,"end":4745.231,"text":"我們原則上來講國科會編這個科技預算是包含幫中央研究院還有行政院的各部會一起編列這個科技預算當然中央研究院還有一部分預算是他直接從總統府那邊編的但是我們過程當中我們都會一起看"},{"start":4746.011,"end":4760.21,"text":"是比较粗略型的本来就是架构型的在所谓的跨部位协作机制但是你们是作为研发单位是研究机关这部分的时候到底在就是说对续碳燃金跟生殖碳会你们预定有什么样的成果出现呢"},{"start":4761.305,"end":4780.262,"text":"譬如說去探南京市中央研究院的計畫但是他也必須要跟行政院合作因為要跟台電要做這個驗證跟台電做驗證台電是屬於經濟部經濟部這邊也需要要做一些你這樣講還是一個比較架構型的部分因為沒有看到你在實際上成果的部分"},{"start":4780.822,"end":4807.258,"text":"那我繼續再問下去繼續再往下面看到說因為研究的能量的CG是非常重要的那我們繼續往下看因為在你們的預算的部分雖然是做在明年的規範編列可是你們在承建114年的亮點成果當中有四個那我特別針對到我們所重視的半導體的部分看到一個是開發光電半導體低碳雷射智慧製造技術這一部分"},{"start":4808.158,"end":4834.338,"text":"有這樣的一個內容我們就想要問的是說這些都是一個複合式的技術整合特別是很重要的是包括說你們用到這部分是用到整合共用平台的一個設施這些部分好 很重要但是我們就想問一下既然因為出現了一個字就是我這個字應該寫下低碳雷射製造技術對笨寶體的研發的定位是什麼就請問包括經費是邊月是多少"},{"start":4835.923,"end":4852.89,"text":"這個是我們國科會我們資助學術研究機構在智慧製造我們需要能夠有低碳的低排碳的這個也就是節能的這種設備那這個雷射相關的應用的設備非常的多"},{"start":4853.91,"end":4881.56,"text":"那我們當然會允許學界提出他們的這個想法好 謝謝你如果這樣子預算還沒有說出數字那我們現在看一下這邊就您所說的部分你也是在做這個半導體的這個專家那我們現在看一下在台灣半導體的研發焦點當中其實有三大類別第一個部分是在光學模擬就是在光刻機的部分第二部分是雷射晶片的研發第三個是雷射光學系統的這個整合"},{"start":4882.62,"end":4906.234,"text":"那就在這三大部分的時候呢相對於我們的雷射研發技術的優勢是雷射晶片設計相對我剛才說三大類的部分那三者的這三部分的研發應該以哪些為優先這三個都很重要優先順序最後要做成系統的話這三部分都要有如果缺了一個就沒有辦法完成最後的系統"},{"start":4907.281,"end":4922.061,"text":"好 主委您是做半導體研究的專家您在這邊我們其實知道前面的光學模擬跟雷射晶片研發因為我們的特殊性就是在雷射晶片的研發我們的強項在晶片沒錯"},{"start":4925.225,"end":4951.002,"text":"對 但是雷射晶片的設計 對吧而且是在製成這邊的研發能量嘛 對不對但是雷射的部分因為它用到化合物半導體所以化合物半導體的人才就非常重要就是因為要產生光嘛好 那如果這樣子表示這樣的政策是由國科會由上而下的這樣子去要去推動有一批的經費在編列 是嗎"},{"start":4952.822,"end":4969.916,"text":"是 我們的政策面就是要推動這種產業但是這個產業在產業之前要有學術的研發所以我們就會有這種專案鼓勵學者來做研發好 那目前我們在我們的助理在找出來的發現上說在"},{"start":4971.838,"end":4978.084,"text":"科研的經費當中有420億原來還沒有被刪掉的部分就是有420億現在也是408億他是屬於一個專業項目但是我剛才就說你看起來是有點像目的性的研發我覺得應該確認這一點是說由上到下已經整個是這樣子一個安排"},{"start":4991.437,"end":5016.766,"text":"那我們現在繼續往下看的時候可是呢我們目前我們找到的資料當中出現到的是說雷射低碳製造的這個技術它是一個探索位置在領域當中那真正的一個實現的話是目前是國科會工程技術研發處裡面到長期的支持那完成那個專題研究計畫的一個成果並沒有是一個新編列的一個獨立項目"},{"start":5017.686,"end":5043.308,"text":"這個部分我們可以看到一些證據呈現出來了就是包括的是今年的6月4號的時候你們把它當作亮點去研究那我們所看到的這個資料是在清華大學的動力機械工程研究所的李明昌教授他所拿到的這個計畫當中他說他在就是呈現出來他在光電半導體這部分在雷射的低碳的雷射技術上面的一個製造技術有這個突破等等"},{"start":5043.908,"end":5065.974,"text":"但是給的經費就在一個百萬到千萬之間因為它是一個個別型的專業計畫那我就剛才再問的是您這邊部分一直都還沒有說到如果是對於光學的雷射光學的這一部分的尤其是比較在屬於後端的就是在製造這一部分的部分你的經費到底是多少因為看起來的話你們剛才沒有說他的經費是多少"},{"start":5066.694,"end":5088.39,"text":"我們有時候匡列經費就是這個大的範圍但是學界的教授要提出什麼樣的計畫我們事先沒有辦法預期所以並沒有辦法區分說剛剛講譬如說三部分哪一部分是多少錢這個倒不見得會完全準確主委所以你們目前沒有這三大類的研發經費嗎"},{"start":5091.837,"end":5106.849,"text":"包括委員前面那個李老師的計畫是在我們智慧製造這個政策專案底下的那右邊提到這幾項是跟未來矽光子有關的這個研究對 那你是未來嘛 對不對所以現在沒有編嘛 對不對是不是在114年沒有這個是100 115的"},{"start":5109.892,"end":5125.674,"text":"我們在115是有一個矽光子的專案對我知道你們今天業務報告已經寫了已經有很多學者主動提出相關的這個研究對所以這個地方就是非常的你知道這個政策的研發當中其實那個連續性是看出來是有一個斷點的因為"},{"start":5126.795,"end":5131.918,"text":"你們在114年當中並沒有針對這個部分去提出來的有當作一個重點的政策目標當作是一個預算去編列因為這一部分那我們為什麼會這樣說呢因為事實上我們看到這裡台灣的雷射技術的領域的發展光學系統的部分你可以看到如果是一個完整的雷射光學系統裡面它就有這五大部分"},{"start":5152.051,"end":5173.957,"text":"可是在台灣的研究重點這部分呢我們仍舊是在驅動晶片跟控制系統晶片設計上面是強項啊但是在後面的在光學系統整合光學元件設計雷射光源開發這部分看到前面兩者是中等可是它的後面的雷射光源就是你們今天在講到說在變到115年這部分它是較少較弱的項目啊"},{"start":5174.517,"end":5190.842,"text":"是 那個委員講的沒有錯就是因為這個樣子我們才要發展因為矽光子是現在我們AI新時代建設裡面一個很重要的項目這個項目的重要性是因為我們將來在資料中心的設備將來要從這個銅線的資料傳輸的設備要進到光纖資料傳輸的設備"},{"start":5197.845,"end":5210.96,"text":"這個過程當中所以它是後端的嗎它是屬於在後端的傳輸的部分嗎對 就是我們的晶片在做運算我們已經很強了但是我們有很大量的訓練的資料還有我們叫做應用的時候叫influence這個資料"},{"start":5215.726,"end":5234.834,"text":"製造量都很大我們要跨設備之間傳輸就要變成以後要用光纖光纖還要再進到我們的機櫃裡面不是只有在外面的這個纜線而已那到機櫃裡面要跟矽的半導體要結合我們很強的矽半導體所以現在全世界都希望跟台灣來合作做這個矽光子"},{"start":5236.255,"end":5256.247,"text":"能夠從細的晶片到光的這個晶片能夠整合在同樣的封裝以及這個光的模組所以我們要發展這樣的這個技術所以就加強投入主委你現在所表示的意思是說你們的這樣的歷程是從114年沒有編只是一個個別型的有人研究計畫生成計畫那個自由型的研究我們都會支持但是圖案就是在115年"},{"start":5257.748,"end":5284.251,"text":"就算114年出現這個成果啦或是說怎麼樣考量你們就直接到115年在編列就是今年在編115年預算之後你就把它放進去是這樣的意思嗎是 就是來鼓勵我們要做光學研究光系統的 光通訊的等等然後就能夠整合到我們的這個細光值可是你現在看喔這個部分你現在的雷射光源的開發這一部分事實上是真的是較少的那目前我請問一下那其他國家的在這個領域上面的研究是跟我們領先程度怎麼樣"},{"start":5284.992,"end":5297.027,"text":"其他也有一些先進國家我們也希望他們要跟台灣來合作不管是美國日本歐洲都有是他跟我們合作但是還是說他們已經在領先我們去協助我們去幫我們去學習什麼之類的"},{"start":5298.43,"end":5317.265,"text":"這個在科學研究上面台灣其實並沒有落後只是說在產業的應用上面我們比較少那我們需要從科學研究加強這種系統層級的整合這個是需要花時間的那你預計大概多久會有一些成果出現我們編的大概四年未來這四年那這個經費多少"},{"start":5319.491,"end":5341.722,"text":"經費我們原來零零星星的在跟矽光子有關的計畫大概一年大概三億左右三億嗎一年大概三億左右零零星星就是矽光子對但是明年15年我們增加了5億讓它提高到8億因為我們要加強這方面的研究的能量"},{"start":5342.102,"end":5360.401,"text":"好 主委你這樣講可能有點前後矛盾還是說現在真的是初期階段而已因為這麼三億而已那你現在就是你們在今天的報告當中呈現來的雷射精密光學跟半導體的製程也許是新的領域但是看起來在應用裡面就像你說說應用真的距離還差很遠"},{"start":5362.213,"end":5383.571,"text":"報告委員因為委員談的就是雷射在製程設備上的這個應用那是智慧製造但是我講的是整個矽光子我剛講的是整個矽光子在明年的預算會增加了5億大概頭頭會到8億所以你覺得慢慢的以後繼續在4年之後再繼續再編應該是有機會在多少年時程上可以達到一個效果"},{"start":5383.891,"end":5408.471,"text":"我們現在編的預算明年增加5億但是卓院長有承諾說如果我們進展順利的話因為這個對台灣產業界非常重要可以逐年再增加我們希望可以這樣好 那到時候會造成什麼樣的效果我想這是非常重要因為這邊可能是跟中研院的物理光學研究領域事實上他才是扮演主力的當然我們希望說你們剛才那個做政策的轉折其實是"},{"start":5409.292,"end":5428.575,"text":"有點快就是剛才說的113年113年都沒編那114年有一個亮點然後之後後來看到這個趨勢這一部分我希望你國會這邊就做一個這邊的政策轉折部分做一個報告給到本席好嗎好 謝謝就希望說更出來是一個政策性的對我們台灣都是好的事情好 謝謝主委謝謝蘇冰 張偉質詢主委請回座接下來請葉宇源之委員質詢"},{"start":5451.63,"end":5453.502,"text":"麻烦请主委 谢谢请吴主委"},{"start":5458.482,"end":5480.954,"text":"葉委員你好所有人好因為我們國科會算是掌管我們科技那現在因為台灣現在科技重點是半導體AI但我們看到我們的賴清德總統還有我們副總統蕭美琴都一直在講就是說鼓勵我們台積電到美國去設廠而且不是只有台積電還包括整個產業鏈生態系"},{"start":5484.281,"end":5499.396,"text":"那我想以主委您的這個專業您覺得如果鼓勵台積電還有生態系到美國去設廠對台灣的科技會不會有影響因為大家很擔心說會不會產生空洞化產業空洞化的狀況"},{"start":5500.177,"end":5524.109,"text":"包委員 我覺得不是空洞話因為我們台積電現在在台灣的投資還持續在增加我們還持續在擴敞當中這是第一點第二點 我們的研發一定是留在台灣的先進製程的研發留在台灣會到美國去也是因應市場的需求市場的需求就是台積電最先進的製程它重要的客戶都在美國"},{"start":5525.009,"end":5545.637,"text":"那也是因為大家也都知道因為美國政府的要求他們自己的廠商也希望能夠在美國製造好沒關係所以你認為不會有影響就對了那我來跟您請教幾個問題第一個問題是我們現在國會會有一個大南方的新矽谷的計畫俗稱南科四期那現在台積電已經確定要進駐了嗎"},{"start":5549.202,"end":5554.668,"text":"現在還沒有確定還沒有確定喔因為那時候看到新聞報導是說台積電要進駐而且是先進製程"},{"start":5558.002,"end":5580.751,"text":"我們現在是他有提出希望政府協助要開發園區的土地因為我剛剛提到過台電還是持續需要在台灣再投資所以政府正在努力來尋找合適的土地其中台南的沙崙是其中一個可能性我們已經經過可能性的評估已經送行政院"},{"start":5581.531,"end":5605.197,"text":"在合定當中行政合定以後我們就會進到第二階的環評環境影響評估所以現在他有意願然後也申請了只是說現在還在環評所以你的意思是說他有意願進駐如果一切法規各方面都沒問題的話他都是確定要進駐的嗎也要看最後產業真正的需求因為環評可能還要再兩年我知道 現在他預計是投資多少"},{"start":5609.222,"end":5616.959,"text":"這個投資還不一定因為也是市場一直在變化那現在有掌握他先進製程是怎麼樣的製程嗎"},{"start":5617.981,"end":5639.596,"text":"目前台積電在高雄男子園區兩奈米的製程我是說大南方氣鼓計畫南科士旗未來台積電的這個製程那個新的製程從兩奈米會一直往一奈米陸續新的這個製程會陸續出現所以到時候新的園區出來以後他會用哪一個製程也是依照他"},{"start":5640.716,"end":5665.558,"text":"當時市場的客戶的需求來決定所以2奈米下去還有1.8 1.6 1.4等等會一直往下走主委再請教一下因為企業的投資資本就是這麼多如果因為美國的關係 市場關係他去美國投資而且我們現在政府的態度是好像蠻鼓勵台積電去投資因為我也不太知道說為什麼"},{"start":5666.579,"end":5691.439,"text":"明明就是企業企業自己決定市場但我們政府要一直宣傳說鼓勵台積電去然後生態系去讓美國再次偉大都讓我覺得說好奇怪我們的政府官員為什麼一直要讓美國再次偉大站在台灣的角度如果我們台積電資本上限就是這樣去了勢必會影響到國內的投資當然你會講說還是會有投資但它可能投資更多"},{"start":5692.459,"end":5714.728,"text":"原本可能投資更多因為去了所以投資少一點其實對台灣來講不管是在產業的發展各方面一定會有影響所以我們那個卓榮泰院長講說不會有影響因為山在台灣台灣就是山沒有人移得走我不知道這句話是怎麼突發奇想想出來的山不會整座移走但是只要一座山的幾個山頭我覺得都是會對台灣影響你認為這個對台灣來說是好的發展嗎"},{"start":5718.922,"end":5743.674,"text":"包括我個人 我認為是好的發展在政府的態度也是這個樣子的原因是這樣啦我剛剛已經報告過說第一 我們研發是留在台灣第二 台積電在台灣的投資現在的這個速度現在的速度是遠不過市場的需求市場的需求是遠高於我們台灣的製造能夠應付的量它最大的客戶 最重要的客戶大部分都在美國"},{"start":5744.574,"end":5772.725,"text":"所以在美國投資是符合美國的利益也符合台灣的利益所以是對雙方都是好的那再來我就是這個南科沙原生態園區提醒一件事情因為現在那個企業都很強調ESG那現在大南方新矽谷的計畫裡面因為裡面有一些保育類的動物比如說草蕭你們是有規劃18公頃的地做生態區不過這個部分就提醒一下"},{"start":5774.046,"end":5789.399,"text":"這個這一塊因為當地還是會有出現一些可能會對生態破壞希望你們可以注意企業發展跟生態發展的兼顧謝謝委員這一點我們非常重視其實我們從去年開始就已經緊密的在做這個生態的調查"},{"start":5791.1,"end":5813.271,"text":"也跟所有的生態保育的團體也做過溝通特別是在南部地區南部地區不是只有沙崙從雲嘉南到屏東都有草削的棲息跟密實地這些我們整個林保署農業部的林保署也花很大力氣跟國會在合作當中"},{"start":5814.272,"end":5828.148,"text":"怎麼樣去鼓勵我們地方政府台南市政府也投入相關的規劃保護這些我們非常重要的原生種的物種能夠在我們經濟發展的需求之下"},{"start":5834.522,"end":5850.196,"text":"也把他保護得更好不是放任他自身謝謝主委然後再來因為國會會也負責能源科技看你們也有一個計畫然後也開很多次會我發現我不知道等一下可以請主委證實一下因為我發現現在賴政府好像有點要放棄光電跟風電了"},{"start":5851.617,"end":5866.087,"text":"特別是光電這一塊像之前一直在推水庫上面有浮電的光電板後來因為光電板造成很多問題所以現在經濟部 農業部居然講說只要地方政府不同意光電板就不設感覺就變得非常消極"},{"start":5867.248,"end":5888.558,"text":"那如果光電跟風電沒有要做的話綠電顯然就是沒有辦法達標嘛現在的目標是說好像2030年綠電要到30%那我就想問說如果光電 風電沒有積極要推的話請問一下現在政府是要用準備要用什麼能源來補啊"},{"start":5890.523,"end":5910.377,"text":"報告委員我們綠能獲得的方式目前主力當然就是太陽光電跟離岸風電太陽光電跟離岸風電因為台灣自己的土地這個我都知道我是說以你們科技研究的角度你有知道說政府現在準備要用什麼能源來補嗎"},{"start":5912.199,"end":5923.63,"text":"因為電對產業也很重要現在正在努力要增加的綠電有包含地熱地熱都很有限地熱其實"},{"start":5925.956,"end":5948.821,"text":"台灣地熱很有限所以國會現在有研究說接下來地熱會大幅的增加嗎我們鼓勵在學術研究當然各種可能的能源的取得我們都鼓勵所以地熱配合經濟部在做的一些實驗經濟部包含中油等等另外一個就是小水利的發電我們只要小水利發電還牽涉到社會韌性的功能"},{"start":5952.282,"end":5971.677,"text":"這些東西我們都會同步去發展所以你現在沒有一個比較具體的都是說再發展再發展我們要比較具體的國會的任務是先期的學術研究所以現在還在學術研討就對了這學術研究我們都支持甚至那感覺上就是並沒有在幾年內並沒有一個可以替代的綠能"},{"start":5972.418,"end":5997.164,"text":"如果現在光電假設那個賴政府光電跟風電沒有要積極發展的話國會這邊還在做其他小水利跟地熱的掀起的學術研究那顯然就是綠電我覺得會有很大的缺口那綠電有很大的缺口現在又沒有核電那就火力全開那火力全開又跟國會現在要推動的那個淨零碳排目的又背道而馳"},{"start":5998.964,"end":6021.814,"text":"國科會應該在這方面多建議一點最後一眼時間 我跟你請教一下因為大家現在都很關心說為什麼現在很多教授都沒有研究經費因為國科會明明就編那麼多錢編了那麼多錢但教授又講說沒有研究經費教授研究不是應該是國科會的重點業務嗎這個訊息是錯誤的有的教授講說 媒體報導說他用微波爐在做實驗"},{"start":6023.464,"end":6043.633,"text":"沒有這件事他說沒有經費買設備所以只好用微波爐在做實驗那國會一直講說我們變那麼多的錢然後真正需要錢的人又用不到那錢都花到哪裡去了是不是有把經費做最有效的運用我覺得大家在質疑這件事情那當然我們先看一些數據啦譬如說我們可以看到這幾年"},{"start":6045.134,"end":6072.676,"text":"申請件數第一個申請件數有逐漸下滑第二個當然它的核定的經費是差不多核定的經費差不多但是因為這幾年物價都上漲核定經費一直在增加每個計畫核定經費都在增加你看到2022報告委員數量下滑是因為我們核定多年期多年期的計畫增加了但是就個案而言所以現在沒有一些學者完全沒有研究經費完全沒有少"},{"start":6074.827,"end":6096.959,"text":"我們的研究機會是增加 沒有少特別也沒有少特定的教授如果表現不好人家評比差的話他可能計畫被減那完全是學術懲罰那謝謝諸位證實一件事情因為前幾個月在地方就常常傳說哪個教授錢被砍都是因為國民黨三預算沒這件事你講是說個別教授表現不好所以錢比較少"},{"start":6097.639,"end":6119.273,"text":"我从来没有说过我是说地方我是说你证实说没有这个事因为我们在地方有很多谣言说哪个教授又被国科会砍预算都是因为蓝白三预算没这件事第二个就是新闻有报导说朱伟讲说财劃法过关是灾难对于研究经费会少很多我不太懂说财劃法过关跟国科会有什么关系"},{"start":6120.194,"end":6143.3,"text":"因為財化保要解決的是說很多年前因為精神精神之後很多事權大家沒有重新分配然後地方分到錢越來越少跟中央比起來收的稅收是75比25以前是60比40是因為要解決這個問題從頭到尾國科會的預算都不是編在地方政府"},{"start":6143.66,"end":6151.488,"text":"所以學者要申請錢都是跟中央申請所以這個部分到底跟國科有什麼關係像國防預算也沒有受到影響也是越編越多"},{"start":6152.43,"end":6179.486,"text":"有關係是因為我們行政院總預算編列的時候就少了那是行政院的問題這跟財化法無關行政院重視國防國防預算就越編越多明年的總預算3兆350億比今年還多所以是行政院不重視科技這跟財化法無關所以主委我跟你講你回答問題要針對問題財化法要解決的是中央跟地方的稅收這個業務本來就不是在地方"},{"start":6180.687,"end":6207.309,"text":"這個業務本來就不是在地方可是財化法真的是影響到行政院的總預算沒有啊明年總預算三兆多耶那就是因為他還要再增加舉債才有辦法對啊 所以沒有差嘛總預算三兆多完全沒有影響還變多是他不重視科技嘛所以他給你砍了嘛國防他很重視所以國防預算提高我覺得主委這個部分你是要去跟行政院爭取不是去講一些無關的理由"},{"start":6208.63,"end":6227.881,"text":"對 你覺得我科技要多一點你跟行政院爭取行政院重視的話他就會多編他就會多編就像重視國防一樣所以不要再我覺得第一個不要再扯才化法了因為這樣子主委您是科技人 產業人你不要繼續講那些政治的語言這樣我覺得也會影響好 謝謝好 謝謝委員主委請回座接下來請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":6243.24,"end":6270.146,"text":"好謝謝主席有請主委請胡主委好主委好主委我最近有針對這個形態及生理醫學學門的相關議題向國會所知想跟你請教幾個問題請問一開始所知時我有要求要提供計劃的主持人名單但為什麼一開始不敢提供計劃主持人的名字後來再一次所知才提供"},{"start":6273.531,"end":6285.81,"text":"我请我们深刻处杨处长谢谢委员我是深刻处杨台宏这个我必须很抱歉我一时疏忽我们第一次提供的时候有同仁说要小心各自小心各自后来"},{"start":6286.929,"end":6313.25,"text":"委員辦公室有再提醒我們那我們就再去確認說沒有各自的問題因為網路上都可以查得到所以我們後來就通通給委員了這個跟委員說一聲抱歉不好意思好 申請國科會的計畫為什麼有些申請單位是斷崖式的下罪隔年直接掛零這有符合國科會的補助原則嗎還是符合學門召集人的精神斷崖式的下罪要那些年輕學者怎麼辦"},{"start":6314.315,"end":6326.145,"text":"報告委員並沒有斷崖式下墜這件事我想我們的資料可能有誤還是你們的資料有誤這個應該要有待確認不要直接就說我們的資料是一定不對後續我們相關的資料我們來對一下嘛"},{"start":6329.508,"end":6357.008,"text":"好不好那我想到底是你的認知上有差距還是怎麼樣我們會後再來研討一下可以嗎但是主委之後還有時間可以再討論但是我可不可以請主委能夠提供能不能提供近6年生理醫學學門所有計劃主持人的KPI能不能提供生理醫學學門現在召集人跟上一位召集人的KPI就相關的這個資料我要請楊處長可以提供嗎"},{"start":6358.444,"end":6379.09,"text":"委員 這個我們每一件補助的計畫學者都會交成果報告那我不曉得委員的KPI跟這成果報告的意思是不是很接近他的paper的發表數量嘛被引用次數嘛這些東西是不是都可以把這相關的資料數據都給我們事實上這些資料我們本來就有所以應該沒有問題好 謝謝"},{"start":6381.058,"end":6410.43,"text":"那另外我要講的是不管是我剛剛所說的斷崖市的下墜相關的補助甚至有幾個委員在前面有提到我必須坦白講主委我在地方跑行程的時候也有遇到相關的教授在跟我們提到說因為才化法所以我們現在的補助都減少了這個才化法修的話是不是影響到我們我還是要講主委剛剛您所提的您的主要的回覆內容是因為才化法"},{"start":6411.107,"end":6439.918,"text":"造成行政院在編列預算對吧有所影響剛剛也有人跟你講事權下放然後呢現在整個預算會給地方我們還是要再講光教育來說就好了我自己在辦考察教育的相關的一些補助中央的補助也都直接講明啊可能明年度才化法下來以後呢因為台中市拿到262億所以中央的補助可能會從原本的五成變成兩成"},{"start":6441.235,"end":6467.163,"text":"甚至一直在討論各個學校的原本的冷氣費由中央直接要來支付的款項由地方要自己開始來支應所以我們看到不管是剛剛前面委員也有提到很關鍵的行政院有沒有重視科技有沒有編列更多預算給你們那是行政院自己要有的態度行政院我們看到他很重視國防重視國防沒有不好"},{"start":6467.503,"end":6486.06,"text":"但是科學也很重要啊有沒有一起並行有沒有一起努力這是行政院的態度然後不要一直告訴我們才化法去影響到了整個預算的編列但是卻知口不提將所有的事權下放給地方地方要自行因應最關鍵剛剛就講到嘛"},{"start":6487.822,"end":6515.512,"text":"整個電費要求地方自己來付出的時候那相對應的行政院所編列的預算就不會再這個部分的支出就會減少所以有財化法預算下放也有支出減少總體的整預算都有提升的情況之下單單用財化法就要把它斷定是因為補助減少是因為財化法的關係我覺得這個是沒辦法接受的 主委"},{"start":6516.252,"end":6539.164,"text":"那我想另外再提到這個近年主權的AI成為全球關注的一個焦點根據史丹佛大學報告全球百大影響的一個AI模型幾乎由美國中國開發若AI逐漸成為國家基礎的一個設施其他的國家便可能受制於技術資料依賴在台灣這一場"},{"start":6540.285,"end":6559.561,"text":"全球科技主权战我认为不能够置身事外所以华硕的师董就指出2025年各国部署主权AI的关键转折点赖金德总统多次公开宣誓主权AI强调要建构据台湾特色的在地模型"},{"start":6560.868,"end":6584.52,"text":"然而目前国内的政策推动仍以硬体建设为主缺乏对资料的一个治理模型的开源人才的养成文化的保存整体的一个战略规划依据我们财团法人人工智慧科技基金会所提出的2025年台湾产业AI化调查的一个AI落地指引"},{"start":6585.68,"end":6592.215,"text":"整個資料的顯示台灣目前企業具有字眼語言以及模型能力的一個比例僅約12.5"},{"start":6594.485,"end":6616.738,"text":"我们看到代表多数的企业仍然是依赖国外的一个API模型界面若AI的一个核心技术跟我们相关的资料长期都掌握在外国的一个平台当中我国的资料安全文化表述以及产业的一个创新上都将面临挑战"},{"start":6617.498,"end":6642.72,"text":"所以我認為在整個國家的戰略議題當中我們現在台灣是預計118年建構達到相對應的一個AI算力當時你們所訂定的一個目標若沒有完善的營運模式跟治理架構投資恐留於硬體的堆疊有報導就指出經濟日報"},{"start":6644.332,"end":6668.191,"text":"目前全球計算的整個伺服器市場中AI伺服器佔比已經提升到28%如何確保國家的算力中心能夠跟上技術的演進避免落後跟閒置這都是國科會目前應該要重視的一個課題更關鍵的是人才的培育台灣的年輕工程師學生大多人在使用什麼"},{"start":6669.07,"end":6691.991,"text":"ChipGPTCloud等國際平台進行練習缺乏自主模型的訓練跟整個實驗的環境這種結構使我們在AI的運用根本就是沒有缺乏競爭力啊難以孕育下一個AI的一個培育他們能夠來作為設計啊所以就以上狀況我要回到老問題請問主委"},{"start":6694.674,"end":6703.243,"text":"國科會如何具體的界定主權AI的範圍在整個算力的中心的治理上國科會明確的方向是什麼"},{"start":6704.332,"end":6727.222,"text":"我们当然在主权的部分我们也是鼓励以前虽然国会我们从政府的角度来导引做了一个台德模型但是现在我们已经把这个任务已经在鼓励我们的学业学界跟产业界还有中央研究院大家一起来努力希望借助民间的力量能够快速发展"},{"start":6727.942,"end":6743.426,"text":"适合台湾应用的各种各样模型我们已经编了经费在推动了同时我们也鼓励现在塑化部也在协助鼓励我们的民间的软体的业者来做相关的应用服务"},{"start":6744.086,"end":6764.174,"text":"讓我們也整合了台灣民間的力量來建構算力,不是只有政府建構算力。就是在發展主權AI的時候,我們在數碼部要負責我們的自由的語料庫的建置,我們的資料交換的標準,我們鼓勵民間來投入做應用。"},{"start":6766.074,"end":6783.341,"text":"使用AI做这个应用服务这个计划也会搭配着我们现在在大南方新系股以及其他的治理的方案明年的预算我们都编进来了也希望我们立法院这边来支持"},{"start":6784.361,"end":6803.894,"text":"有夢最美啦那我還是希望這個不爭的事實我還是要講這大多的模型語料都是英文要不然就是簡體中文AI模型在訓練的資料當中90%都是外國語料我們要如何貪主權對不對本席認為主權的AI核心不只是技術啊"},{"start":6804.895,"end":6822.427,"text":"更關乎文化主體國家韌性政府在推動AI的基礎建設的一個同時我們要思考如何讓台灣的語言價值法治能夠被AI理解反映讓AI不只是台灣使用的工具讓真正能夠有懂台灣的智慧體系"},{"start":6823.587,"end":6845.092,"text":"所以我們看到那些語料在點的時候都心有戚戚焉最根本的問題是主權AI的最終目標是要讓AI懂台灣懂中華民國還是要讓台灣去懂AI我們根本就是應該要好好想想應該是AI來懂我們"},{"start":6846.4,"end":6872.061,"text":"所以主權的AI目的是追求自主算力與模型我們不過是在追趕產業而已但若是希望整個AI能夠反映我國的法律語言價值文化那就需要一種新的思維跟方向所以請問主委國科會是否願意將文化主權納入到科技政策的核心架構讓AI的發展不是技術的競賽"},{"start":6874.329,"end":6888.425,"text":"我想更是強化國家文化主體民主韌性最重要的一個具體的一個實踐你認為呢這一點我們是同意的我們本來在文化層面要建立自由的語料庫這一部分是現在是有積極在進行"},{"start":6890.387,"end":6909.15,"text":"我想那這樣子的部分上我們是有一定的具體目標那有共同的一個目標我們共同來努力那但是我要跟你談到剛剛說的算力建設還有科研使用的一個落實狀況那國科會的一個報告就有講自114年底AI的算力達到5.1"},{"start":6911.614,"end":6933.243,"text":"那118年预估要到23并推出了相对应的台湾AI的一个平台协助企业跟研究团队快速导入应用那这显示在整个政府确实在布局AI的基础能量的时候也能够反映出几个值得深思的一个现象"},{"start":6933.863,"end":6952.03,"text":"我們觀察到AI產業快速發展的一個同時算力資源取得正逐漸有一個落差這不能夠去否認部分大型的法人產業界有能力在自建運算的一個資源但中小創新的公司呢"},{"start":6953.07,"end":6979.725,"text":"他們這些大學的研究團隊呢面臨的就是算力不足啊租用昂貴啊這些問題的困境這不只是一個硬體的問題啊涉及到資料的共享模型的開放以及行政協調的一個速度啊我們有沒有去重視我們有沒有去挖掘到這些問題在推動AI指導的一個過程當中如果算力跟資料都掌握在少數單位你認為會不會造成學研界看得到用不到"},{"start":6981.531,"end":6987.977,"text":"進而限制的創新研究多樣主委您怎麼看待"},{"start":6988.737,"end":7014.798,"text":"我们的确是有了解这个问题所以我们国防中心的这个算力建制依照我们跟大院提出来的这个预算里面我们逐年编列然后我刚刚也提到说我们也在引导产业界的投资产业投资绝对远大于政府的投资我具体的要求国歌会能不能在布建这个AI算力中有多少的比例能够提供给教育机构创新团队实际使用"},{"start":7015.543,"end":7035.358,"text":"我们大部分的专利都是支持我们的学生会后相关的资料能不能也让我们知道一下好再来就是你这个台湾AI的这个平台针对不同的类型使用者比如说刚刚说的研究单位学研单位法人能够设计不同的方案去做资源降低使用的门槛"},{"start":7037.096,"end":7065.148,"text":"可以嗎可以我想這個都是具體的一個需求尤其在第三國科會是否規劃跟教育部數位發展部目前共同建立AI公共算力的服務體系讓各個各大院校能夠更平等的去取得研發的資源這個是我們所重視的我想未來AI是不可或缺的技術我們希望降低門檻擴大參與共同來努力這是我剛剛所提到困境上希望你們能夠重視的好嗎"},{"start":7066.569,"end":7081.982,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅廷薇委員質詢主委請回座我們在我們在郭益勤委員質詢之後呢會休息5分鐘那接下來請范雲委員質詢有請主委請吳主委"},{"start":7094.645,"end":7124.143,"text":"范委员好主委早安今天要先跟您请教师大女主案我想主委已经非常知道师大女主案我跟一些委员非常的关心就是有发生强迫抽血强迫实验却被轻放的体育研究界跟体育界的乱象我知道国科会已经有一些努力你们在7月29号就决议全面清查而且当时已经开了"},{"start":7124.563,"end":7153.725,"text":"两次的跨部会会议那8月7号我们立法院专报的时候那你们有承诺三件事情第一个是新定研究人员专业伦理守则那这边我肯定你们因为我看了一下已经定了那第二个你们承诺的是要修正国科会学术伦理案件处理及审议要点那这个部分也已经修了那第三个是要强化违反研究伦理的通案处理机制哦"},{"start":7154.045,"end":7173.695,"text":"那這個部分我就有點不確定那我們先回來看你的研究人員學術倫理守則跟剛剛講的另外一個倫理案件處理審議要點那我看到的事情是好像這樣子的做法比較能夠做到的是事後"},{"start":7174.395,"end":7199.047,"text":"已發生的事件的懲處的確懲處比較嚴格但是我比較關心的事情是如果我們只能夠在事件發生後做處理那會不會還是有憾事發生有沒有可能我們更重要的是要把一部分的心力是放在事前預防呢如果這樣來想的話我就會覺得一個你們沒有給我很清楚報告的是"},{"start":7199.707,"end":7225.303,"text":"跨部會的協力因為你們之前有開過跨部會的會議那這個是你在9月16號我也肯定國科會有個記者會的報告裡面提到說你們會跨部會協力維護受試者的權益我的理解不知道對不對那個主委可以糾正我如果不對的話跨部會主要是跟衛福部跟教育部那主要是那未來還有運動部"},{"start":7226.904,"end":7244.975,"text":"還有運發部主要是針對IRB的部分就是要定期查核衛福部跟教育部會叫上國科會是這樣子嗎是那這個部分您覺得目前這個合作機制真的可以有效事前預防嗎"},{"start":7249.288,"end":7267.427,"text":"效果多大这个我当然没有办法完全保证因为特别是在大学国会支持的是大学的学术研究所以很多研究计划我们不希望轮违走回头路说变成是一个还一直不断在监管大学"},{"start":7268.508,"end":7296.027,"text":"这个已经就不是一个自由民主国家的做法所以我们会定定通用的学术伦理我是要一直不断地提醒学者一个自由民主的国家当然不能够假设每个人一开始都会犯罪所以就设很多的限制这个就阻碍学术发展所以我们的做法就是各部位现在我们政府可以努力的就是希望这个机制能够互相互通"},{"start":7296.767,"end":7317.677,"text":"一旦早期有一些蛛絲馬跡我們發現不對勁的時候就可以早期去處理因為這些您報告的東西目前看起來好像沒有在跨部會的會議記錄中呈現我擔心如果衛福部或是教育部或者是未來我們的運動發展這個部分不找你們的話"},{"start":7318.317,"end":7345.893,"text":"那因為畢竟國科會是對研究跟研究倫理最熟的嘛那怎麼辦所以針對您記者會講的這個跨部會如何在事前審查然後逐年我們就是檢核他到底是不是有認真做這些事前審查的工作上就是防破網補破網的話是不是可以給我一個書面報告我們作為就是說國科會在這方面你們有努力的透過跨部會"},{"start":7347.094,"end":7374.912,"text":"来一起补破网好吗好谢谢委员那这个书面报告多久可以给我我们应该一个月内一个月内好那我们就等你的这个书面报告我希望国科会能够担任起领导的角色因为卫福部教育部跟我们的运动发展部业务都非常的多那研究伦理的部分我担心他们会忽略了好"},{"start":7375.772,"end":7393.913,"text":"學術倫理是國科會要努力那在IRB的部分就是人體相關的現在主政的是衛福部是沒錯 但是就是要跨部會努力你們報告中你們公開記者會也說要跨部會努力那再來我要針對不好意思"},{"start":7397.565,"end":7422.643,"text":"针对生养子女的困境还是要借这个还有一些的时间这是我今天的第二个主题不知道主委有没有读到我们中研院很优秀的物理研究所的副研究员林耿慧老师在母亲节分享自己的经验觉得我们国家的科研环境还是有缺乏性别敏感度"},{"start":7423.303,"end":7449.285,"text":"然後提到她自己就是從過去被國科會鼓勵的優秀的女博士生到生育前其實研究表現都非常的好可是她後來2012年生了一胎2015年生了雙胞胎之後她在被審查的時候審查委員顯然缺乏性別敏感度質疑她的生產力下降後來就沒有得到研究計畫"},{"start":7450.306,"end":7468.499,"text":"她用研究的方式認為國科會應該要去研究生一胎生二胎是不是影響了女性科研人才的出版可是在研究審查方面你們目前制度做得還不夠然後她有提到就是"},{"start":7469.74,"end":7496.781,"text":"其實科研人才裡面有三分之一是女性可是成為國科會的計畫主持人就降到四分之一那這部分不知道那個主委有沒有看過這篇文章或者是聽過因為這非常多人分享這樣子一個嚴謹的學術文章非常的長還這麼多人分享並不容易表示他說出了部分人的心聲主委有知道這篇文章嗎"},{"start":7497.877,"end":7518.303,"text":"報告人 我沒有讀過好 那沒關係主委之後可以去看一下好不好因為它這裡面又用研究舉證的方式覺得國科會應該要去研究研究人員特別是女性生一胎 生兩胎 生三胎是不是對她的生產量有影響那如何不要流失這些人才而是"},{"start":7518.743,"end":7533.863,"text":"支持她不是在審查的過程中因為她一小段時間的表現就拿不到計畫最後就惡性循環反而是國家培養女性優秀人才的一個損失謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7534.964,"end":7559.021,"text":"我知道你們其實有做一個補救就是說就這個科技領域的部分如果生一胎的話它的績效認定可以從一般的五年增加兩年你們今天的報告中也有生兩胎的話就5加2加2但是這位研究人員提出來說人文領域不知道是不是因為女性研究員比較多它的一個"},{"start":7560.492,"end":7580.414,"text":"看的时间就可以是10年那你这边还5加2那像对方这位发文的人他第二胎是双胞胎对不对所以看起来你整个友善性别友善措施还是蛮不够的你目前其实是有一个怀孕及育儿随到随省"},{"start":7581.515,"end":7606.284,"text":"然后到怀孕到子女满三岁之前就可以那另外研讨会你有补助托育经费让就是需要带小孩的不分男女就是家长都可以友善小孩还有一个鼓励女性的STIRN的这个计划那但是呢你们国科会自己有委托人做生育支持措施成效分析报告这是2022年的耶"},{"start":7607.905,"end":7633.123,"text":"今年是2025年嘛 主委这个分析报告您有没有看过抱歉没有不过我同意委员的观点我想在我们现在因为少子女的状况我们希望能够挽回这个颓势我们的确要多照顾一下友善生育而且这个如果因为它"},{"start":7633.903,"end":7660.336,"text":"我最近才看了局里夫人的传记电影这科学界就是充满了性别歧视她是特别特别优秀而且有一个非常支持她的先生跟家庭才能够就是说不断地突出所以我觉得不要让我们优秀的女性科研人才觉得被制度歧视没有得到鼓励跟支持那这也是流失国家的优秀人才"},{"start":7660.836,"end":7684.057,"text":"那既然你們都委託人做這個生育支持措施成效分析報告做了都三年了主委還沒有機會看到那是把裡面的政策建議拿出來認真評估好不好一個是說支持生育措施的申請年齡不要只有到2到3歲應該放寬到5到6歲另外是不是能夠鼓勵生育期間的女性她就執行多年期計畫"},{"start":7684.798,"end":7704.842,"text":"她如果本來很優秀不會因為生育她就不優秀只是那段時間可能會有一些些生養家庭跟職涯的平衡但是以我們優秀的居里夫人我記得她生了兩個小孩她還是依然優秀好不好是不是這個可以多久之內給我一個報告呢"},{"start":7705.455,"end":7722.869,"text":"好 我們一樣在一個月內一個月內好 把你們自己請人做分析的生育支持措施裡面的政策建議至少這兩點好好評估一下是不是能夠推出 好不好還有這個雙胞胎的議題那你也一起研究好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝范雲委員質詢主委請回座接下來請郭育琴委員質詢"},{"start":7737.509,"end":7739.259,"text":"謝主席有請主委請問主委"},{"start":7744.741,"end":7767.666,"text":"郭委員好主委辛苦了這個前天我去參加了這個台北車站就是我們的這個車站的時候就是我們的科普列車那這個是十週年我想這個十年來這個要先給我們的國科會一個掌聲一下那我想這個喜歡參加或願意參加甚至也有一些"},{"start":7768.707,"end":7786.465,"text":"過去曾經參與過這個科普列車的孩子現在七年之後他要成為關主而且這個關主非常的特別他是廳長的這個學生但是他這一次成為了助教成為了關主那我想這個影響這個是非常非常大而且這一次我們的這個環島的列車也會到一些偏鄉"},{"start":7790.589,"end":7819.694,"text":"那我想這已經不是只有一般的所謂的這個科學教育的普及那也是我們教育平權非常重要的一個起點那這個禮拜預計應該會有兩萬名的學生會參加對不對是因為我有看那個影片我看這個主委笑得非常非常的開心講到這些孩子講到這些科學那我想這個未來因為這十年剛開始走到現在真的不容易那我想未來我們也繼續往這條路走"},{"start":7820.054,"end":7835.434,"text":"甚至有人说是不是可以一年可以开两班的列车有这样子的一个需求我们也来研究看看看这个频率怎么增加好吗谢谢委员好但是主委我想这个刚刚提到这个孩子的科学教育很重要"},{"start":7835.914,"end":7863.799,"text":"但是接著下來人才的留任也很重要那除了人才的留任前一陣子我們看到有一個這個新聞的標題那我想在這裡剛剛葉元之委員沒有讓主委好好的說明清楚我們來看一下這個高教貧窮國科會的這個經費動漲那教授用微波爐來取代這個百萬的設備那根據這樣子的一個聳動的一個標題但是我想我還是要聽一下這個主委您怎麼說"},{"start":7864.719,"end":7890.905,"text":"那我想如果研究要靠所謂的窮撐才能夠生存下去的話那我想未來我們台灣的科研我怕只剩下奇蹟沒有希望那這點我是不是請我們的主委先來回應一下這個用微波爐來取代百萬的設備這是屬實嗎那到底有什麼樣的一些事情或者是哪些爭議我們是可以在這裡來解釋的"},{"start":7892.725,"end":7919.427,"text":"当然微波炉也可以是一个实验设备就看看学者他怎么去应用它如果你能够用一个比较低成本简单的设备可以做出伟大的研究那这样的学者更厉害当然我们回过头来谈这个经费的问题我跟委员报告其实国科会在我们自己可以编列的这个有限的预算之下我们还是逐年在提升我们所有的这个计划的"},{"start":7920.147,"end":7940.726,"text":"平均的研究經費是逐年在提升到今年都還是一樣我們當然希望未來幾年都還可以繼續提升並且我們核電的計畫的案件比例也是增加的也不是減少的所以整體來講我們並沒有像媒體這種標題所講的"},{"start":7943.388,"end":7969.576,"text":"这样耸动的政府在支持我们的科技的研发预算一直在增加虽然我是期待能够再增加更多但是因为行政院的总预算受到一些限制所以没有办法像我们预期的在台湾经济实力还很强的时候能够再加强我们的实力让我们科研的力量能够增加我是很期待"},{"start":7971.197,"end":7984.689,"text":"至少我們名人的預算也希望我們立法院可以支持所以我想這個結構性的動漲的這些預算我們還是有逐年在增加當中那我們也希望能夠再往更好的一個方向走"},{"start":7985.27,"end":8010.431,"text":"我刚刚有提到就是在人才的培育的部分那我想在这个助理研究员或者研究生他们的薪资现在普遍还是落在所谓的30K到40K之间那我想这个部分是我想青年学者他们所承载的必须要撰写计划那同时呢也有这个所谓的留任的压力那我想呢"},{"start":8010.931,"end":8036.939,"text":"這些人才如果我們在這個部分的相關的資源不足那我們也很擔心這些人才要嘛就是往國外發展要嘛就是往業界靠攏那我覺得這個會是將來我們人才的部分的一些流用的一些問題是結構上的一些問題針對這些問題我們應該要怎麼樣來讓這些科研的工作者他們能夠在一個比較穩定的一個環境當中能夠來發揮他們的長才"},{"start":8039.42,"end":8055.414,"text":"那我想這個薪資的誘因的確也是非常非常重要的很多人在講說錢不重要靠熱情就夠了不對這薪資其實是支撐他們的生活最重要的一環那這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個計畫來解決呢報告委員我非常同意委員的講法"},{"start":8056.135,"end":8079.429,"text":"因为学界跟业界的薪资的差异其实有在扩大我们非常的忧心因为这个样子学界找不到好的人才我们的新晋的教师现在在聘用上面也碰到非常多的困难所以我跟教育部的政部长其实有讨论这个事情我们也在想说在现在我们整个法律的限制之下"},{"start":8080.489,"end":8108.391,"text":"还包含在考试院的这个问题没有办法在体制内去改变这个现状我们是希望说能够在政策行政命令上面能够有机会我们鼓励产业界能够发挥他们的影响力也能够跟政府一起来合作有没有一些比较具体的计划具体就是我们正在研拟合并的制度"},{"start":8109.292,"end":8125.481,"text":"合併的制度讓優秀的人才在產業界也可以指導或者是在教學方面能夠協助我們學術界我們學術界的教授他有這個能力能夠在學校也指導研究可以當教師"},{"start":8126.041,"end":8152.814,"text":"同時也在產業界也可以發揮他的實力協助產業界研發目前都還在研擬當中都還沒有一個具體的規劃我們在研擬當中希望能夠順利的去推動這樣的大概有沒有一個比較實際的一些進程讓我們可以期待或者是讓我們可以看得到我們希望在這個學年度在這個學年度能夠把這個制度看看能不能把它落實下來下個學年度可以說"},{"start":8153.134,"end":8170.178,"text":"所以這個懸嶺路如果可以落實下來或有一些比較具體的一些計畫再提供給我們辦公室來作為參考好不好那我們當然也樂見就是我們要來找解方讓這些所謂的科研人才能夠真的長留久用接下來我想這個國家災害房"},{"start":8170.838,"end":8191.127,"text":"防救科技中心在國科會跟這個政災基金會的一個努力合作之下那我們對於這個2016年不管是這個台南的地震或2018年花蓮的一個地震我們進行了這個災害任性的一個研究那當然也登上了這個成果也登上了這個國際的一個地震權威的一個期刊那另外呢就是在"},{"start":8192.228,"end":8211.383,"text":"我想聯合國他們也特別在研究報告當中也指出平時如果我們能夠建立完善的一個風險的評估那另外還有資源的一個整合以及制度化的一個備援的一個機制其實都是關鍵在社會如何在災難之後可以快速的一個重建"},{"start":8212.223,"end":8222.318,"text":"我想國科會最近我們近年來也在推動災害防救韌性科技的一個方案三年來我們也投入了28億整合了9個部會同時也有18個機關跟118項的一個計畫"},{"start":8228.787,"end":8250.029,"text":"已經有產出166項研究報告的成果其中有76項是可以來做實際的應用我想這個部分也象徵我們在災害任性的一個計畫其實我們是真正的有在做執行但是這邊我想要再請教一下我們的主委"},{"start":8250.969,"end":8276.05,"text":"雖然我們已經很積極的在投入這個所謂的防災的一個科研但是我們要怎麼樣來確保這些成熟的科研的結果它能夠轉換變成具體的一個防災的一個政策的一個工具那不管是結合地方也好或者是學校教育的一個防災教育的部分我們怎麼樣來落實那這個部分呢是不是在各個所謂的這個災防的資料的運用"},{"start":8276.79,"end":8296.684,"text":"也是可以互通有無那怎麼樣來做這個整合的一個有沒有預計要推動這個所謂的跨域的資料整合標準化這個部分有沒有一些比較具體的一些計畫跟報告謝謝委員這個整合的確是非常重要這是為什麼行政院有一個在我們"},{"start":8298.092,"end":8314.814,"text":"任何災害要侵襲比如說颱風之前我們會成立這個中央災害應變中心背後支撐這個災害應變中心在做決策的時候它的重要的一個機構就是我們的災防中心國科院下面那個國家災防中心"},{"start":8315.314,"end":8340.201,"text":"這個災害中心其實是整合我們現在各部位在做資料收集的部分包含中央氣象署在做氣候資料的監測然後整合到我們災害中心包含地震的資料包含土石邊坡的監測等等各種各樣的資料匯集到我們的災害中心我們會做資料的分析然後做一些估計"},{"start":8341.801,"end":8362.471,"text":"然後提供最後的這個資訊甚至情報給我們各部會作為這個施政決策的參考那在各個地方的政府跟學校剛剛我提到這學校的防災的一個教育有沒有已經導入這些所謂的科研的結果那地方他們有沒有辦法有管道可以回饋他們的問題來優化我們的科研的一個防災的結果這個部分"},{"start":8363.992,"end":8385.128,"text":"委員關心的這個是非常的好其實我們跟各地各地方政府還有教育機構也緊密在合作所以我們災防中心其實在各個縣市也都有相關的學者也會協助協助我們把相關的這個防災防災的一些知識灌輸到我們的地方的這個教育上面所以現在已經是落地有災實施的對不對"},{"start":8386.85,"end":8407.929,"text":"我想這個很重要因為其實我想這個天災不斷不管是豪雨也好或者是我們碰到的所謂的颱風、地震等等台灣處於一些比較特殊的一個環境我想讓這些科研的結果不要只是報告而已而是要真正的成為所謂的救命的一個工具這也是我們這個國科會"},{"start":8409.771,"end":8421.874,"text":"也是非常重要的一個使命跟工作在進行今天因為時間的關係其實我後面還有兩題我真的來不及問沒關係我們還有很多的機會可以再互相的交流也謝謝我們的主委謝謝主席謝謝謝謝各位請回座我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":8733.07,"end":8751.318,"text":"現在開會我們接下來請林一錦委員質詢謝謝主席有請那個吳主委跟太空中心吳主任請吳主委及吳主任"},{"start":8754.867,"end":8774.318,"text":"林委員好雙無主委好首先我們恭喜太空中心福衛八號第一顆衛星人質完成特別是在這個月八號要起運準備送到美國去發射升空我想這是很多現在已經在美國了"},{"start":8775.329,"end":8801.213,"text":"已經在美國 對 8號起運嘛對 準備升空我想說這是很多人的心血跟投入在此先恭喜我們國科會跟太陽中心完成這項兼具的任務接下來我就要請教是說在福衛8號首科衛星的研製過程其實它是跟我們國內有33個產官學研的單位合作"},{"start":8801.773,"end":8816.675,"text":"那國科會的新聞稿有指出說如果衛星順利運行那合作的夥伴就可以藉這個驗證的技術來這個衛星的原件跟軟體就可以取得飛行履歷那這樣的話就可以爭取國際訂單"},{"start":8818.277,"end":8824.325,"text":"那我的理解是說這是不是會帶動很多的單位或廠商進軍國際遙測衛星的籌載原件這個市場那會有效提高我國整體的太空產業產值"},{"start":8835.058,"end":8849.388,"text":"請教主委我這樣的理解正確嗎的確委員講得很對這也是戴總統講的我們要禁足太空一個很重要的我們要帶動台灣的產業發展將來變成是全世界在太空科技裡面很重要的一個供應鏈是 對"},{"start":8851.59,"end":8877.287,"text":"主委就把我下一個問題已經回答了其實我就是要問你說那我們再來要怎麼樣促進就是協助我國業者去爭取所謂的國際訂單是就是因為台灣現在因為太空中心的努力我們帶進產業界來教他們怎麼樣去做衛星並且衛星裡面的很多的籌載包含未來通信衛星用的通信的籌載"},{"start":8878.047,"end":8894.437,"text":"现在台湾我们慢慢都自主在发展发展以后我们台湾中心现在还跟台湾的电子五哥的厂商也签约了将来把智慧制造引进来跟台风结合将来我们的产业发展以后就可以变成全世界不管是美国 欧洲 日本等等"},{"start":8895.177,"end":8921.292,"text":"做这个低轨通信卫星将来要来跟台湾合作可以做这个量产还有这个地面站的设备还有这个使用者的终端设备将来都可以连结在一起台湾将来都有能力去帮全世界来做这个太空产业的一个很重要的制造所以这是我们禁足太空赖总统讲的禁足太空的政府的政策好"},{"start":8922.543,"end":8947.054,"text":"另外一個太空的議題是說國科會有預計要在台南的沙崙建設一個火箭整合測試研發基地進行火箭原件跟次系統的開發製造 測試跟組裝目前進度看起來好像有提工艦計畫在行政院要核定預計今年度要取得用地我們預計明後年"},{"start":8949.875,"end":8974.15,"text":"就要進行工程設計跟發包施工那想要請教一下合訂這個工建計畫行政院合訂了嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題是那未來預計會怎麼樣在那邊推動太空的這個產業那以後如何結合周遭的這個鏈結周遭的這個生活應該生態圈 鏈結周遭的生態圈來進行這個發展這兩個問題"},{"start":8977.537,"end":9005.638,"text":"謝謝委員 委員是很內行我們這個沙崙的火箭整合測試研發基地的工建計畫行政院剛剛核定了剛剛 OK已經核定所以我們現在接下來就可以開始做明年的預算已經編了希望能夠開始去做這個設計希望在未來的四年內能夠看到它可以建成然後我們開始進行這個研發"},{"start":9007.34,"end":9028.982,"text":"这一部分因为它紧邻着我们未来的沙伦生态科学园区所以将来我们除了在半导体的发展之外也会希望能够逐步的建立刚刚跟委员报告的我们太空产业的整个产业链能够在南部也可以扮演这样的角色好的"},{"start":9030.163,"end":9045.972,"text":"那接著我想要關心的是主任 剛剛那個問議題你有沒有補充的沒有他是最主要的貢獻者太空阿伯那我們接下來要關心的就是國科會我們有一個無人機關鍵技術前瞻研發計畫"},{"start":9048.493,"end":9068.997,"text":"那這個計畫是2024年我們開始進行這個計畫徵求看起來是審查後有補助個13個案子那目前也培育了149個人這個關鍵技術人才那我們看到上週五行政院院會有報告說行政院要透過經濟部來推行無人機產發統籌計畫那預計從今年起"},{"start":9073.118,"end":9097.586,"text":"到2030年陸續要投入442億的經費要拼2030年的產值達到400億元所以我們就展現說我們想要成為無人機國家隊的雄心壯志看得出來也成為無人機民主供應鏈亞洲中心的決心"},{"start":9098.266,"end":9122.977,"text":"那無人機我想是各種領域的關鍵技術它不只在國防海巡還有應用在各種的像說在防科技或者生活民生領域所以我請教主委是國科會這個計畫它目前計畫跟如何怎麼樣跟經濟部我想得到工科院或者是中科院或者是交通部來合作這個計畫"},{"start":9124.244,"end":9144.093,"text":"好,那個委員剛剛提到的有兩個,一個就是國會的,我們工程處,洪書長在這邊,我們是鼓勵我們的學界,學界要做研發未來比較先進的這種無人機的設計啦,還有系統的整合,軟硬體整合,等等的機隊的管理。"},{"start":9145.433,"end":9168.605,"text":"這些東西學界一定要下去做研究培養人才未來產業需要的人才剛剛提到第二個就是經濟部現在的計畫也是編在我們的科技預算裡面這個計畫的重點就是產業就要發展產品了這個產品有包含對我們國安需求的也包含民用的商用的等等這些東西都會在"},{"start":9169.125,"end":9186.31,"text":"我們整個產業發展的藍圖裡面這一部分國客會努力的來結合各部會因為不是只有科技發展產品製作而已在應用端我們各部會編的這個預算要讓應用端可以使用包含海委會的使用"},{"start":9187.291,"end":9204.892,"text":"農業部的使用 交通部的使用甚至經濟部很多的產業發展交通部在做公共工程的建設等等所有這些東西都會用到無人機我們在摘房也會需要救災也會需要所以委員剛剛講的都是正確的我們正在努力朝這個方向再進行"},{"start":9206.514,"end":9229.648,"text":"我還要請教是說我看到前一陣子國科會有公開增建一個叫做台灣運動文化研究專案計畫我們談到運動研究我們都幫會想到說我們如何跟提升運動選手效能的這個運科研究那可是本席覺得你提到這個運動文化這個探討非常有趣舉例來說譬如說你增建計畫"},{"start":9230.589,"end":9242.579,"text":"中有提到說運動文化與歷史還有運動媒體與消費文化創新與社會影響或者是說地緣政治與台灣國際體育這個運動參與這些這些這個政見的這個計畫的這個名稱你會發現說運動不只是運動他跟"},{"start":9250.986,"end":9270.942,"text":"這個社會學研究跟這個傳播學研究跟真學研究都有關係所以想簡單請教主委是說之後這個偵見的內容你會怎麼樣跟運動部因為大部分都是運動嘛跟運動部來合作或怎麼樣去展示這些應用的研究或者是你期待看到怎麼樣的偵見內容"},{"start":9273.658,"end":9301.835,"text":"行政院卓院长也请我来协助运动部因为运动部成立以后它就不是只有像过去在照顾顶尖的运动员而已对 全民运动我们是希望能够推展全民运动还有运动的产业既然要推展全民运动我们就希望说未来的发展是要运动变成是我们文化里面一个很重要的元素因为是全民的需求了全民需求要塑造这种全民的运动"},{"start":9303.235,"end":9323.791,"text":"當中就很多的我們人文社會領域的學者就要進來協助協助怎麼樣去讓我們的政策更完善讓未來的這個發展會讓我們的民眾都能夠接受所以這一點跟剛剛委員講的目標是一樣的那國會現在努力在做這個事情我請我們那個黃處長補充一下好好來"},{"start":9327.433,"end":9342.98,"text":"跟委員報告這件事情就是說我們希望讓運動能夠深入到每個人的生活裡頭去所以這裡面的主題大概會會有一個很重要的精神就是說將未來我們的民眾他們也能夠在自己的生活裡頭就去談論"},{"start":9344.421,"end":9366.647,"text":"它不僅僅只是去討論說今天有哪一個很好的運動員有非常好的一個成果就是說我也能夠談談我今天做了什麼運動我跟別人做了什麼樣的互動那這樣子就代表我們的運動真的深入到我們的文化裡頭去也就是每個人的所以等於是這個的專案計畫某個程度它就是要推展全民運動做準備"},{"start":9367.367,"end":9395.776,"text":"是 對我們全民的身心健康會是一個很重要的幫助也是賴總統健康台灣的願景一個很重要的施政的項目好 最後再小小的請求一下就是我們看到國科會為了讓人文社會科學研究提供更多的人文關懷跟藝術價值跟社會大眾來交流分享所以我們今天辦了有98個場次從2017年開始有人文沙龍的系列活動"},{"start":9396.736,"end":9423.718,"text":"那跟我們台南相關的主題就是蘇碩斌老師有主講一個台南第四個一百年這個國立台灣文學館何以立在府城中心的這樣一個這個講座那我比較關心的是說因為最近平普原住民身份法有通過那其中在22條就有提到說各級教育主管機關應推動相關的教育政策促進全體國民認識並尊重平普原住民族"},{"start":9424.278,"end":9442.486,"text":"那所以想要請到主委像這種人文沙龍的系列裡面可不可以規劃辦理平埔原住民相關的人文沙龍來促進我們全體國民對平埔原住民不管是文化歷史轉型正義的相關認識謝謝委員的建議我想這個建議很好我想請我們黃處長來努力來實現好 謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝李一金委員質詢 主委請回座"},{"start":9453.939,"end":9474.071,"text":"接下來請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席 我們邀請國科會主委請吳主委張委員好主委好喔好 等我一下午的簡報出來了喔 好"},{"start":9478.808,"end":9492.115,"text":"我想針對於台南沙崙科學園區民團現在有一些疑慮我不曉得這邊主委清不清楚我簡單陳述一下他們的一些想法"},{"start":9493.556,"end":9513.233,"text":"就是說從這個生態保育團體像是中華民國的野鳥學會它就有提到說這個沙崙農場這邊其實是被農業部列為草生地的保育軸帶是我們台灣特有種原生種的這個草消和環境質的一個重要棲地但團體就會質疑說將名為生態的園區"},{"start":9515.995,"end":9526.144,"text":"選址在公認的生態敏感區會不會讓草蕭失去他的家破壞他的密室或是繁殖的一個地方同時13個環保團體也聯合聲明說沙崙健康園區生態園區的開發案將會使農場面積消失四分之一"},{"start":9535.892,"end":9563.274,"text":"呼籲新的開發僅限於既有的高鐵特區並且將沙崙農場納入為農業發展區的第一類維持它的耕地的利用同時辦理生態補償像是推動草銷友善農業第三個也有一些農民擔心說因為他是用年約來承諸這個地方來有這個收入一旦化為園區將會失去耕地生計的保障"},{"start":9563.914,"end":9578.993,"text":"那最後呢也有一些團體他們擔心說開發會帶來工業污染影響灌溉水源與地下水品質所以我知道說在2025年的9月呢這個其實已經送到國發會審議通過了現在也要送到行政院來核定然後也會開始進入相關的環評"},{"start":9582.25,"end":9599.778,"text":"但是我想大家現在最大的爭議其實是一個地方的信任感的問題他們擔心的就是說這個是生態園區還是破壞生態的園區所以我想是不是可以請那個主委簡單的說明就是說現在的一個相關進度到底是什麼"},{"start":9601.001,"end":9617.03,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這個事那我們也了解到我們國內很多的生態保育的團體也非常關心這個事情我們自從公告沙崙生態科學園區的規劃"},{"start":9618.09,"end":9636.985,"text":"以後其實我們也接收到很多的團體的關心不過事實上我們從去年開始就已經做了很多的研究我們也邀請學術界相關領域的專長教授也來進行各種各樣的調查"},{"start":9638.953,"end":9654.52,"text":"那很多的在地的這個生態保育的團體也都有跟我們也接觸過過程當中他們給了我們很多的建議也非常感謝他們那這些建議有不錯的建議我們都已經在執行當中包含去嘗試說在營造更多的這個"},{"start":9657.481,"end":9675.793,"text":"可能的棲地跟密實地那密實地我們將來也是要邀請我們的農民來做這個有機的耕種這個事情甚至政府都可以補助這些農民那除了這個沙崙這個區域之外因為我們的這個非常寶貴的草銷"},{"start":9676.874,"end":9703.104,"text":"它其實是也不會只有在這個區域活動這個草蕭的分布從雲嘉南一直到屏東其實都非常多的地方我們都發現到他們的這個棲地跟密實地所以對政府來講不能夠只看一個科學園區的發展而是整體的這個生態的這個保育怎麼樣讓我們的這個經濟的發展跟這個生態可以並存這個事情是行政院跨部會我們一起努力在做的"},{"start":9703.484,"end":9718.346,"text":"那我想要特別提醒一件事情就是說我們現在呢其實是政府有說要生態先行來推動園區承諾會保留三分之一的空間來作為植被自拿自紅空間也會做棲地補償"},{"start":9719.488,"end":9733.915,"text":"但是主委我想要提醒這個說法我覺得民間可能好像不一定會接受因為我們提出來的這個二人溪的區域其實它原本就已經是草消的棲地所以等於是拿原本的棲地來補償那這到底算補償嗎"},{"start":9735.696,"end":9758.608,"text":"我們的做法其實是,我們做法是說,原來如果說它是棲地的話,它棲地到處都是啦,有非常多地方,但是你沒有好好的去營造去管理的話,它不見得會聚集在這個地方。我們要把環境弄得很好,我們要去管理,管理不要有野狗啦,不要有很多人為的干擾等等。"},{"start":9759.188,"end":9774.315,"text":"這些東西如果沒有經濟的支撐沒有政府進來因為我們開發園區我們發展得很好政府有預算可以來協助這個生態的保育的話讓它自生自滅它其實是會越來越少的"},{"start":9775.1,"end":9804.88,"text":"好我想這個說法我想可能大家還是會有一點疑慮但是我想我的想法就是這樣子我們就是跟團體好好的溝通看要怎麼來去處置這個問題特別是因為大家有提到就是說在歐美的一些生態補償的制度是說我們要利用富裕改善或創造棲地的方式來去做彌補來維持整體的生態環境品質不會去失衡那特別是歐盟的2014年的研究是說少一塊棲地至少要有一百塊去補足那要怎麼達到我想"},{"start":9805.66,"end":9831.981,"text":"這個就是讓你們來跟團體持續的討論謝謝委員重視當地的一個聲音這樣子接下來我想要講一個AI的新十大建設的一個推動計畫目前我們已經從204我們預估在204年會創造新台幣約15兆的經濟價值涵蓋智慧應用關鍵技術數位基礎的三大面向不僅是產業政策更是國家科技戰略的核心佈局"},{"start":9833.263,"end":9856.326,"text":"主委您也有提到說智慧機器人、量子科技、矽光子、主權AI等四項新科技將會由國科會來負責並且鼓勵大家來投入資料中心跟應用服務來打造AI之道不過我想大家都是聽到口號比較多實際的計畫到底是什麼主委可不可以簡單幫我們說明一下一些比較具體的計畫、方案還有進度、時程的部分"},{"start":9857.202,"end":9880.943,"text":"我們在AI機器人的方案裡面行政院已經通過也公告了執行面包含國科會會在沙倫地區成立一個國家機器人研究中心之外我們經濟部也在公園院的南分院就是台南的六甲院區"},{"start":9881.844,"end":9910.678,"text":"也會成立一個新的跟產業界合作的共創的研發中心然後我們也在台南的這個柳營科工區也會希望台南市政府配合能夠擴建這個柳營科工區我想問一下聽起來好像你們都已經有一些詳細的計劃具體的計劃因為時間寶貴啦我想是不是可以把計劃跟時程提供到我們辦公室可不可以那這大概什麼時候可以提供到我們辦公室呢"},{"start":9911.517,"end":9923.568,"text":"这个应该应该马上就因为听起来是很我们两个礼拜内就送过去这还要两个礼拜不是听起来已经很具体了吗应该一个礼拜就可以了吧他们还要整理整理一下好了两个礼拜了好不好"},{"start":9925.499,"end":9945.811,"text":"我想要針對 因為剛剛一直在講AI這件事情可是立法院的預算中心也有提到一個報告是說國科會自107年推動的AI行動計畫已經編列了252億的經費可是AI的應用是並不顯著的我們台灣的AI成熟度甚至是全球倒數第三"},{"start":9946.671,"end":9958.323,"text":"主委您也有說過我們過去是強調在硬體的投資可是我們對於軟體的部分還有雲端的服務都是相對缺乏的所以你們在預算的部分其實是有做一些規劃的對不對好 那我想要請"},{"start":9959.968,"end":9984.984,"text":"主委我們就針對應用的部分來做一些詳細的討論第一個這個是Oxford Insights的一個報告他就有去強調說我們台灣在該指數的得分是74.58其實算是中上特別是我們是在政府政策治理以及資料基礎設施上面相對其他國家我們很強可是一樣回到我們在技術的產業上面是相對的弱得分只有56.37"},{"start":9987.225,"end":10009.09,"text":"另外一個根據CISCO的台灣AI Readiness Index的一個報告也提到說我們不到三分之一的公司認為自己在AI的資料準備度上面是高的所以我想這都代表就是回應到剛剛講的我們在企業的導入跟應用上面是非常需要來協助的"},{"start":10010.515,"end":10028.274,"text":"那特別是我也可以看到說日本其實在最近的Stanford的一個全球AI活躍度的排名他們從第四名掉到了第九名特別是在深層式AI出來之後他們在企業的導入跟實用化速度比較慢所以我就想要請教"},{"start":10029.435,"end":10042.896,"text":"雖然說Stanford他並沒有評比台灣但我想太多的數據都已經告訴我們了我們必須強化AI的應用那台灣中小企業這麼多我們政府打算怎麼做我們在2029年有沒有對企業訂定明確的目標"},{"start":10044.285,"end":10063.79,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的確過去比較屬於第一個階段的發展我們注重在台灣的半導體的實力我們又時間有限了我們就直接回到中小企業實質我們的方向跟目標是什麼對 但是如果我們沒有做那件事我們今天其實也只能仰賴外來的企業來提供服務我沒有意見 對"},{"start":10065.27,"end":10080.58,"text":"現在我們的預算的編列在AI新十大建設裡面委員可以看到說我們有談到說我們要發展全民智慧生活圈這個事情全民智慧生活圈意思就是要談應用了"},{"start":10081.781,"end":10095.814,"text":"那应用一定是百光百业不是只有制造业还有这个服务业制造业本身也需要那我想问一下我们有没有一个明确的目标在2029年有多少的企业要达到我们可以真的把AI应用在他们的日常工作上我们有这个明确的目标吗"},{"start":10096.687,"end":10123.496,"text":"我們這個目標從數字上來看現在是很難預估但是現在我們明年的預算編列我們已經把這個我想主委抱歉我打斷一下因為我想我們還是要一個非常的明確目標你才知道你的投資你的方向到底是不是正確的所以我想這個部分的話因為時間已經差不多了是不是可以把你們現在的一個相關的計畫一個規劃可以提供給我那這大概是多久可以提供給我"},{"start":10124.156,"end":10150.794,"text":"应该一样我们这两个礼拜一起提供好不好那这个到时候我们可能也就在会后约个时间来详细讨论那最后我再借用一点点时间我还是很想要感谢主委在今年非常支持在Kids Science里面有台语的这个科普的活动在里面那其实有一些母语家庭都有跟我说他们非常感谢所以我也希望把他们的感谢之意呢可以转达给主委那他们也希望这不是只有一次"},{"start":10151.855,"end":10180.029,"text":"未來還可以持續喔是可以嗎沒問題好謝謝惠妍抱歉好那最後再一點時間就是我這次因為去看KISS INS的時候我看到那個量子科學的這個展這個薛定格的展連我這個外行人看了都覺得非常薛定格的貓抱歉連我這個外行人看了都覺得非常非常有趣那我就在想一件事情因為量子技術當天大家一直在洗腦我嘛量子技術其實是一個下一代的運算基礎對於我們的AI發展非常非常的重要"},{"start":10180.569,"end":10207.307,"text":"所以這麼重要的東西我們是不是可以讓更多的孩子了解這件事情呢那我們去年呢其實是國科會有補助一個實習生筆記本那獲得了金鐘自然科學計時節目的一個獎項我們可不可以更積極主動的把像這樣子的東西呢提出跟文化部跟教育部合作可能有一些科普創作的扶植計畫讓這樣子的東西並不是只是一個展可以透過日常的節目讓孩子都可以去理解"},{"start":10208.015,"end":10233.881,"text":"好 我們客戶處其實有持續編列預算我們希望他加強這一部分謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員主委請回座接下來請陳秀寶委員謝主席 請主委好 又請主委"},{"start":10238.628,"end":10255.677,"text":"陳召惠好主委好主委這邊請教您喔在財化法之後呢通過之後大幅的影響我們中央及地方的預算的這個分配的比例那衝擊到我們中央的這個政策的推動國會這邊也難以幸免的會受到影響喔"},{"start":10256.677,"end":10272.128,"text":"主委我想請教您原先我們預期明年度的科技預算是會編列到1800億現在大概只能規劃到1600億少了這200億主委您覺得說會不會限制到我們台灣科技的發展對我們科研的這些量能會不會限制到"},{"start":10273.837,"end":10293.764,"text":"我當然覺得會限制啦就是我們希望在政府經濟的發展良好的這樣的時期我們能夠多投入讓台灣的這個實力可以快速再提升主委您在受訪的時候也表示說因為地方政府的這個收入是增加的"},{"start":10294.204,"end":10309.537,"text":"希望未來呢地方可以配合中央的施政規劃我們一起來創造更大的內需市場那我想請教說國科會目前有預計哪些科技政策是需要地方政府一起來努力有沒有去協調地方跟中央是如何來合作"},{"start":10310.458,"end":10325.133,"text":"我刚刚那个张委员在问我AI新时代建设我有提到说我们要发展全民智慧生活圈这个全民智慧生活圈将来推动的机制就是要发展智慧城市把全民透过这个智慧城市AI的应用能够"},{"start":10326.014,"end":10353.016,"text":"AI的雲端應用能夠連結在一起這個一定需要地方政府跟中央政府來配合地方政府跟中央政府來配合能夠在需求端就是全民全民一定都有地方政府然後他們的需求還有地方的服務業 白宮白業像旅宿餐飲業 醫療健康照護業等等這個都是在地方地方政府在協助的時候我們也希望能夠補助他們"},{"start":10353.917,"end":10369.707,"text":"補助他們來應用我們科技產業所發展出來的這些AI的產品跟應用服務這樣搭配起來才有辦法讓我們社會發展好 謝謝主委其實我們推動科技的政策不只在研究那也要時間 重要的是時間"},{"start":10370.848,"end":10385.153,"text":"中央地方我們要一起努力也希望說能夠達到主委您說的我們是形成一個正向循環但是我會希望說我們需要地方政府一起努力的或者說我們可以給他的這些建議能夠更具體我們來擬"},{"start":10386.693,"end":10412.819,"text":"就是说我们有这样子的一个研究我们有怎样的资源可以来相结合提供给这些县市政府做参考来结合我们现在有的技术我们现在有的研究的结果那是提供给我们的民众是一个在产学方面是研究出来的一个可以实践的这个有没有更具体一点的计划可以来提供"},{"start":10413.942,"end":10433.383,"text":"我們如果是產學合作我們倒沒有特別限制因為學者要跟產業界合作他們要提計劃這個要等到我們預算通過以後因為預算都是中央部會編列的預算通過以後我們會去邀請"},{"start":10435.124,"end":10458.31,"text":"學術界跟產業界一起來合作來提這些案子所以我們不會限制那個題目好的 謝謝主委好 那藤堅剛剛講才化法這個問題我們在115年的這個預算呢針對基礎科研的預算會不會再做增加我們會增加多少的幅度有沒有符合我們國科會想要強力扶植那個科研這個力道我們經費"},{"start":10464.807,"end":10470.654,"text":"反部增加就是說明年的預算我們有微幅的增加"},{"start":10472.086,"end":10496.344,"text":"當然可能沒有到說很讓學界滿意至少我沒有讓學界很滿意但是主委你自己滿意嗎自己覺得這樣子的我本來當然是期待說可以更多一點能夠編到一千八近期對於媒體對國歌會計畫是有報導幾個問題剛才前面有質詢的委員也都有提到不知道主委你自己有沒有看過這樣的報導"},{"start":10497.845,"end":10525.938,"text":"內容其實針對是國科會計劃的這些審核經費的運用以及研究經費動漲他其實都有著墨那其中還提到說我們的學者是一塊錢當十塊錢在用難怪國外的學者會稱我國的學術成果是台灣奇蹟那報導裡面有提到說國科會主委之前曾經公開直言我們台灣學術界幾十年來都沒有本土的諾貝爾科學獎得主是很羞恥的"},{"start":10526.738,"end":10546.28,"text":"但國科會這邊是不是有在思考其實我們國家提供給大學研究者這個研究經費跟其他國家來相比實在是沒有辦法跟人家比那國科會這邊也不能覺得說責任是在學者自己國會這邊你們也有責任為學者為研究者來爭取那這邊有幾個問題想請教主委"},{"start":10548.342,"end":10567.723,"text":"就針對國科會計畫會變成是學者在校的這個業績有申請到計畫或者說是金額甚至是會跟升等續片來這個聯動那如果沒有申請到計畫等於計畫就停擺了他的研究生涯可能就結束了這個主委您有什麼看法"},{"start":10569.015,"end":10589.478,"text":"我們在計劃申請核定通過率其實在全世界來講我們其實算是高的也就是說我們在支持學界的研究我們盡量能夠讓願意做研究的學者都能夠得到國會的補助這一點我們是一直在努力當中"},{"start":10591.24,"end":10612.561,"text":"當然這個計畫能不能通過還要經過同儕的審查也就是學界專家彼此要去互相審查如果他的計畫沒有得到學者他們同領域學者之間的認同我們也不會浪費納稅人的錢一定要去資助他所以還是有個機制存在"},{"start":10613.943,"end":10635.324,"text":"針對學者有指出國科會核定的計劃經費沒有調漲所以學者留不住優秀的研究助理那國科會這邊你們對於這樣子的沒有合理的薪資沒有合理的待遇留不住優秀的研究助理我們可以有怎樣的方式來協助解決我跟委員報告我們其實計劃經費都有增加"},{"start":10636.085,"end":10665.1,"text":"但是計劃經費我們核定到學校去以後學校如果自己的內規沒有改他們自己沒有改的話一直維持一個老的薪資的級距那也沒有辦法是學校自己要去修改他們的內規這不是國科委沒有在嚴格的限制經費核定到學校去以後學校是有個彈性可以核定研究助理的津貼的"},{"start":10666.087,"end":10682.738,"text":"好那這邊呢其實剛才我有聽到朱問您在回答的說你們會去研議一個和平的制度是是不是有這樣子的方式來解決部分因為待遇不佳沒有辦法讓人才留住這個問題"},{"start":10684.259,"end":10701.502,"text":"另外政政學者認為說目前國科會的經費會偏重在政治導向就會只注重在國家要發展的項目他們也希望說我們能夠做到預算是透明化這個項目透明化應該要有個監督的機制主委您的想法呢"},{"start":10702.165,"end":10721.936,"text":"我們所有的國會所有的核定計畫全部都是公開的所有的民眾學者都可以看到國會所核定的所有的計畫所以這是全民在監督當然在預算上在項目上是公開的是不是會有一些在他們申請的時候有沒有會偏重偏重到哪個領域呢"},{"start":10724.368,"end":10751.424,"text":"並不會我們在這個在這個基礎的研究部分是所有的學者可以以他自己的這個興趣他研究的這個項目我們沒有任何的限制但是呢我們有政府的一些科技政策那是專案的項目專案項目是額外加進來的我們在那個基礎研究的部分自由的那種研究是完全沒有"},{"start":10752.364,"end":10775.564,"text":"没有限制的那这一部分的经费我们是逐年在增加并没有减少是逐年在增加的谢谢主委这边的说明那我还是要再问同样的问题我们刚刚提到说受财化法的影响那目前我们基础科研人经费你们会维持不调整还是会再做调整会再增加吗我们是希望增加啦"},{"start":10776.724,"end":10801.094,"text":"因為說真的我們中央的預算變少同樣的我們國會這邊的預算也會比預期的少是但你們希望增加是有機會再調整的會再如果有機會調整當然我們當然希望增加因為譬如說現在我們要發射衛星那緊鑼密鼓我們也把產業界帶進來了如果能夠有更多的資源我們當然速度可以加快對"},{"start":10802.425,"end":10830.841,"text":"這樣才可以掌握那這個還是需要主委需要國科會再努力啦其實還能為我們的學界能夠再爭取更多的資源因為現在以他們遇到的這個困難度就是會覺得說申請的這個可能經費如主委說申請沒有那麼不容易但是可能的預算沒有調漲的話面對現在的物價面對現在所有的百物起漲可能沒有辦法去應付那如果可以爭取到更多的資源更多的預算給他們"},{"start":10831.681,"end":10851.12,"text":"他们在研究的时候经费会更宽裕这个部分也希望说主委跟国科会来努力为他们争取好 接下来我想请教主委我们学者要申请国科会的经费一定要遵守我们国科会国家科学及技术委员会补助专题研究计划作业要点"},{"start":10851.721,"end":10873.578,"text":"那其中的規範很多就是在規範研究計劃執行期間應該注意及遵守的事項包含如果是違反學術倫理還是違反性平等的有些規範以及懲處但主委我們的研究進行的這個計劃進行期間如果針對計劃主持人及研究助理他們有受到這個霸凌"},{"start":10875.961,"end":10895.712,"text":"除了血淪的事情之外可能還有遇到霸凌的狀況但是我們現在的重要要點沒有相關這個霸凌的處置及規範那如果他們計畫主持人發生了霸凌研究團隊的這個事件我們國科會有什麼作為或者說如果是相關的主管機關查到是屬實的我們這邊會不會有怎樣的處置"},{"start":10898.669,"end":10921.13,"text":"有 我們現在在這個學倫委員會裡面也已經把霸凌這個項目也已經把它涵蓋進來所以委員會開會也會一併討論這件事情所以這一次我們在處理台師大女足案我們已經有考慮這個事了所以相關的這個運作的程序跟規範"},{"start":10922.771,"end":10926.415,"text":"我們有納入考慮之後我們什麼時候會有明確的相關的規定現在已經有了在我們內規裡面都已經有在內規裡面都已經訂出來了因為我們在這個學術研究的這個過程裡面當然有時候是上位者或者是主持的人"},{"start":10942.293,"end":10970.871,"text":"他可能在一些不经意的这样子的过程里面也许会对我们的研究人员我们的团队有造成这样的伤害我们也希望说我们是落实的除了在性平方面在学龙方面在霸凌这一块我们是有注意到而且会处理的但我想请教一下如果说在学校的场域中受到的这样子的事件的第一时间他们会提报到学校由教育部来做相关的处置认定那我们这边的处置方式会是什么"},{"start":10971.718,"end":10991.769,"text":"国会的处置方式是以执行研究计划所产生的各种各样的问题,所以这是学术伦理的部分。还有他们在论文发表等等,在学术的领域,只要相关的事实被认定以后,我们有各种处置惩罚的方式,包含停权。"},{"start":10992.969,"end":11021.492,"text":"停权有它的不同的这个年数包含追回它的研究的补助不能够得到研究奖励甚至还要追回过去的奖项等等有各种各样的所以情节严重的包括停权跟追回相关的补助都有我们都已经列入了其实很明确的好 谢谢主委谢谢主席好 谢谢陈秀宝召委主委请回接下来请葛如君委员"},{"start":11041.826,"end":11042.767,"text":"好謝謝有請主委有請主委"},{"start":11049.195,"end":11070.031,"text":"各位好主委好很高興可以在這個會期又再看到你希望可以一起繼續的協作首先想先拜託主委一件事這個NVIDIA之前有來台灣設立這個所謂的創新研發中心那有這個所謂的超級電腦算力這個台北一號那不知道主委知不知道台北一號在哪裡"},{"start":11071.226,"end":11095.442,"text":"在高雄我想我們用這樣的一個機制去提供全台這樣的一個算力的協助我覺得非常感謝不過根據我們的了解我們看到經濟部在申請資格這裡有一個很奇怪的設計就是說它說NVIDIA的算力管理規定說申請單位在申請的時候需要一次完整的使用6週或12週"},{"start":11097.623,"end":11123.625,"text":"那我們去研究了一下我們就發現其實有團隊跟我們反映說到最後申請下來多半都是以六週為主其實很少有人可以拿到12週為什麼因為太多人想用了而且這六週呢又必須要連續的他沒有辦法說我要申請長一點的時間可是我只用比如說12分之一的算力其實有團隊在反映說很感謝有這樣的一個機制但是我們都知道我想主委一定很清楚"},{"start":11124.145,"end":11153.407,"text":"其實科學研究六週等於差不多一個半月其實要一個半月就做出成果真的是相當困難所以在這個train error的過程裡面有沒有一個機會我是希望能夠幫這個學術單位能夠跟您反映一下有沒有一個更有彈性的使用的機制那我們也了解了其實NVIDIA根本沒有這個算力規定啦能不能您作為AI的大家長跟經濟部我知道這是經濟部處理的可是可不可以協作來試一下我們能不能有更彈性的"},{"start":11155.169,"end":11172.305,"text":"因為這個是經濟部的業務我並不了解他們現在運作的狀況委員的這個意見我會跟經濟部來溝通一下是 因為您是政委同時也是我們的主委我相信很多的科研單位都是跟你們申請計畫"},{"start":11173.246,"end":11190.885,"text":"那計劃補助了以後他們確實是在使用這個算力來做研究那希望主委可以關心一下看能不能提供更好的一個彈性的方式否則其實有很多的單位跟我們反映到最後他們都只能使用AWS或是雲端的其他的算力費用也很高昂但是整體來講我覺得有點可惜"},{"start":11192.907,"end":11204.215,"text":"那另外一方面是為什麼都到最後只能申請到六週也是因為有可能會有一個算力不足的這個狀況就是大家都在搶算力那我想請教一下有沒有台北二號的計畫"},{"start":11206.4,"end":11224.821,"text":"這個我沒有聽過可不可以幫忙爭取一下我想NVIDIA在台灣遇到這樣的挑戰可是我們接下來能不能還是能夠跟它持續的深化合作我希望主委再投出一顆好球好不好有沒有機會演繹一下這個部分幫我們的學者爭取一下"},{"start":11225.663,"end":11244.06,"text":"我們其實現在是有鼓勵民間投資啦那民間投資像偉創之通也宣布林董事長也宣布宣布說他們也要建置這個資料中心那他們也願意提供一部分的算力來鼓勵包含學界的研發成果要商業化這部分他們是"},{"start":11244.42,"end":11265.178,"text":"好 很好 因為這一次是NVIDIA提供25%的算力嘛我想這樣的一個機制希望能夠擴大那另外呢 整體來講算力可能還是有不夠的狀況啦接下來我們可以期待有沒有一個新的一個算力的中心可以讓這些研究機構或者產業能夠不要這樣子用搶的方式又搶不到 時間又很短能不能給我們一個願景啊"},{"start":11265.478,"end":11276.849,"text":"我們接下來一個更大的一個算力中心或者算力的一個算力池是什麼時間 多大的算力有機會可以期待主委有沒有一個大概的願景可以讓我們關注一下"},{"start":11277.662,"end":11301.072,"text":"我們預算有在逐年編列其實也跟委員報告過我們在台南會建置算力中心包含在南科台南園區那個是已經完工了正在裝置設備然後我們工建計畫明年從"},{"start":11303.454,"end":11320.695,"text":"從這個115年起開始設計就是沙倫的這個Data Center那這個我們也都會提供給學術界來那這個採購的部分預算都已經下去了嗎它是會採購這個NVIDIA或者其他這個新的算力這個算力的這個Petaflops有沒有一個預計啊"},{"start":11322.422,"end":11337.441,"text":"現在不算Pelaflops現在就是算力我們用這個耗電因為不是用瓦數來算是對的因為真正那個算力可以用它消耗的這個功率現在的GPU大概都差不多所以我們會採購"},{"start":11339.103,"end":11361.022,"text":"採購的這個設備現在沒有限定哪一家對不起 主委我請教一下對不起打斷你就是說如果你是用電力耗損度來看的話而不是用PetaFlops來算的話那我如果買一些比較舊型的這個顯卡或舊型的算力裝置它其實因為它可能是比較舊的奈米製程"},{"start":11361.542,"end":11379.114,"text":"它耗電功率比較大反而從瓦數來看它好像比較厲害可是實際上它的算力可能比較低沒有錯這個怎麼避免這樣的一個問題所以我們在比的時候這個是很難有一個公平的比法現在在比的時候當然都要談是現有的設備不是老的設備"},{"start":11380.259,"end":11406.393,"text":"那各國都是用Petaflops在算還是用瓦數在算現在已經沒有Petaflops是早期的Supercomputer所以現在都是用瓦數在算你確定現在是這樣沒有錯那到時候我們就要看一下break down不然你到時候瓦數買了大家特別去買一些高功耗的結果算力比較弱的那你這樣子平均起來你說我們耗電量超大算力很強可是實際上算力不夠這很怪應該沒有那麼笨會故意買那個高耗能"},{"start":11407.613,"end":11425.419,"text":"我相信主委你不會那麼笨啦但是也有人可能刻意不小心不聰明的話這樣不太好啦所以我們我希望大家一起來關注這個部分好不好這不是玩笑啦因為這都是名子名高好不好那另外呢我想接下來也要看一下謝謝你們準備這份業務報告"},{"start":11427.06,"end":11449.353,"text":"但是我覺得有一點緊張機器人的部分很重要對不對我們剛剛提到了這個全球是百億千億的在投入機器人的部分在這次業務報告佔多少主委有沒有一個概念85頁你猜一下大概佔多少應該很重要對不對你猜一下佔多少"},{"start":11450.875,"end":11478.018,"text":"你應該看過這一份嘛 對不對重不重要 很重要嘛我們行政院這個智慧機器人方案頭百億嘛 對不對 千億下去嘛就頭頭差不多兩百億 其中每一半對啊 占多少嘛 占多少85頁占多少85頁你有沒有一個概念這一次業務報告啦你應該看過嘛主委 時間有限你翻到11頁好不好11頁第11頁"},{"start":11479.673,"end":11503.344,"text":"我們的智慧機器人在這次的業務報告竟然只佔了10行啊你是說幾行啊10行啊照我們的比例看起來170分之1喔170分之1喔結果你們的年度的預算也不過就這些200億也不少耶那沒有關係主委我理解不少啊"},{"start":11503.624,"end":11527.108,"text":"對啊不少啊但是你們的這個我覺得還不夠啦就是說規劃你仔細看一下你仔細看一下11頁你們的描述非常的空泛報告我們行政院那個方案也供到我理解我都放在手上了行政院方案我有拿到那我想要講的就是因為機器人對台灣的產業整合非常有意義而且很重要為什麼"},{"start":11527.668,"end":11554.944,"text":"在這個行政院方案的第八頁就寫了為什麼台灣要著重機器人很重要的原因是第一個半導體製造優勢行政院說的第二個知識通訊技術的優勢行政院說的第三個研發能量很強我們台灣的Machine Learning MLComputer Vision CV跟這個所謂的NLP自然語言處理都很強這三個整合起來就是機器人產業但是在這裡面我們還是有點擔心這個"},{"start":11558.066,"end":11579.981,"text":"實行的描述有一點空泛又有一點小怎麼佈局怎麼定位任務是什麼主委現在有沒有一個很明確的說法在看啊你看人家已經這個打中國功夫的打中國功夫啊出這種恐怖人形機器人都出啦我是想要問一下主委有沒有一個明確的佈局啊不然我們看了很緊張啊"},{"start":11582.25,"end":11609.36,"text":"報告委員我們要做服務型機器人產業需求要應付社會各種各樣需求我們藉助台灣現在既有的供應鏈我們很多廠商都已經準備好了我們要發展系統發展應用服務這個是我們現在的重點我們不是要去打擂台踢來踢去這個不是現在我們的重點我們在健康招呼在旅宿餐飲等等各種社會需求甚至防救災"},{"start":11610.441,"end":11624.921,"text":"這些我們都會發生這點主委我還是要提醒你一下我們可以不去跟人家打擂台別人可能會來跟我們打擂台啦所以我理解服務機器人是一個路線但是我還是要提醒主委智慧機器人裡面應該還是包含人形的"},{"start":11625.362,"end":11648.117,"text":"不是說你說我不跟你打 別人就不會來打你所以我想這一塊還是要往前衝啦不要說我們來不及了 我們比較晚了我們害怕 絕對不害怕人家打來一台我們要跟人家打好不好所以我們學術研究所有的機器不要去限制所以這一點我是跟您未來還是持續的協作"},{"start":11648.817,"end":11676.344,"text":"接著還是要繼續請教就是我想這個我們剛剛提到就是說你的實行誌裡面有提到說要補助學界協助學界研發我們先代替學界來感謝但是我們其實也有看到其實教育部有啟動一個頂尖研究中心的計畫五家大學有六大研究中心一年要投三億每一個中心分起來大概一年五千萬"},{"start":11677.624,"end":11698.363,"text":"雖然這是教育部的計畫但是您是我們AI的大家長又是政務委員我想要請教也希望能夠來關注一下國科會在這六大研究中心裡面有沒有額外的再去matching就是說它這邊教育部五千萬了我知道有的幾個計畫是有做機器人的"},{"start":11699.103,"end":11716.154,"text":"有做robot learning的那我們可不可以集合起來有一個縱效因為五千萬要去研究這個真的老實說不多啦跟國際比起來國科會這裡可不可以這個研究中心我們國科會這裡也再補進去這樣產生一個縱效我想請教一下有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":11717.199,"end":11745.422,"text":"有啊 我們所有的這些大學教育部支持的這些研究中心他們同步也都會申請國科會的研究計畫所以這個是沒有問題的這個我知道您會這樣回答但是我想要講的是我們希望國科會能不能主動積極一點的去協助而不是坐在這裡等著他們來申請主委也理解啦申請研究計畫也很花時間要申請還不一定過對不對 沒錯嘛"},{"start":11749.264,"end":11762.471,"text":"我們歡迎他們來申請但是我們不能夠說主動給他錢沒有經過一個審查程序是不行可以有審查程序但是能不能針對這幾個研究中心"},{"start":11763.351,"end":11783.507,"text":"可不可以有一個縱效的產生因為我清楚本來就可以讓他們申請但是一邊又要做教學一邊又要設立研發中心一邊又要再寫新的計畫來跟國會申請其實學者們的時間是有限的還要去寫計畫來申請台北一的算力"},{"start":11784.187,"end":11802.196,"text":"我是真的能不能請主委研議一下我們教育部國科會都希望能夠減少行政的成本我們優勢的人才才能夠跟國際競爭主委可不可以研議一下一個月內給一個研議的可能性好不好就怎麼樣產生縱效我們不是說"},{"start":11803.397,"end":11818.588,"text":"要做一個怎麼樣的一個批評或什麼真的是在幫我們台灣的這個學界不然五千萬可以 我們可以跟教育部來討論一下協調一下讓這個縱效可以發揮得更好太好了"},{"start":11819.168,"end":11835.874,"text":"謝謝主委 這個很高興在新的會期看到主委那我想我們這樣一個正向的一個協作的機制我們可以設立起來那剛剛您提的研議的結果可不可以一個月內提供給我們辦公室 好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝格羅遜委員質詢 主委請回座接下來請伍麗華委員質詢"},{"start":11850.833,"end":11863.713,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主委請問主委吳委員好主委好我們都知道國科會就是在審查我們的科技預算"},{"start":11864.69,"end":11877.603,"text":"那我先了解一下因為我們的科技預算在112年度是1327億多那113呢就下降1276億那114呢又上升1466億那115呢"},{"start":11886.926,"end":11908.047,"text":"因為我們現在編列1640集所以現在是1600多億我們看一下因為過去各部會都會提案原民會這邊我看到它110到113年度的核定本它是這麼提的"},{"start":11908.587,"end":11932.32,"text":"他提到說他要做無限寬頻要增加涵蓋率那他要做友善耕作的養殖技法又提出說那些小微型企業強化他的產品特色跟創新服務模式那我就是想要了解一下主委我不知道歷年原民會是怎麼提"},{"start":11933.34,"end":11958.499,"text":"但是呢我看到如果加上像衛福部啊教育部抒發部等等他們有一些也是坐在原住民身上的一些相關費用大概每一個年度大概可以得到一億左右那這個一億大概是什麼呢一億在這個大水庫裡面大概就是萬分之五"},{"start":11959.773,"end":11979.21,"text":"大概是這樣的一個比例那我想這個會讓人家覺得說好像原住民跟科技好像拉不上關係或者想說原住民可能不太需要科技的預算那我也不知道說原民會他"},{"start":11979.89,"end":11990.797,"text":"的整個計畫想法裡面他可能也不太知道說我到底要怎麼樣去提報我的計畫來爭取這個科技預算主委你有沒有一個建議"},{"start":11992.396,"end":12009.528,"text":"報告委員,我想從原民會自己提出來的,科技的計畫應該是不多,為什麼呢?因為整個原民會執行科技預算的能量其實並不是很高,但是我們並不是因為這個樣子就對原民會這邊的這個協助就減少,沒有。"},{"start":12011.93,"end":12033.536,"text":"譬如說我們講太空計畫來講我們雖然編在國科會太空中心可是我們是跟園民會一起來執行對我們這個原住民族還有偏鄉部落這個照顧就不會限定只是在園民會裡面主委這個就是我主要要請教您的原因因為我覺得很可惜啊"},{"start":12034.176,"end":12050.789,"text":"就是這是由各部會要來提報嘛要拿計畫來嘛但是想像有限啊所以我想請教一下國科會主委您的角色您覺得我們原民會其實可以來做哪一些跟科技有關的計畫"},{"start":12053.769,"end":12069.078,"text":"其實我們都在進行當中,比如說我剛講除了太空科技計畫之外,我們還有科普教育的,在各個地方我們除了跟縣市政府來合作之外,我們也有跟園民會來合作。"},{"start":12070.186,"end":12099.246,"text":"那包含在国科会的研究计划资助学者的部分我们各个领域的学们其实只要牵涉到跟我们的原住民族有关的我们也都是鼓励他们要跟诸位这个我都了解因为我只是希望说国科会能够在这个咨询台上我听到一些给他们的建议我举个例子来讲刚才前面那一位提到机器人"},{"start":12100.266,"end":12124.544,"text":"我觉得我们现在在推动族语教学很需要那个语言的机器人那如果园民会提报这个计划可以吗可以啊可以支持啊是吗那像我们很多我们现在在推那个在宅医疗那我们其实园乡像我之前有特别去强调园住民有特别多的洗肾病患"},{"start":12125.385,"end":12148.537,"text":"那從那麼偏遠的地方去醫院洗腎說實在一個禮拜三次對他們很辛苦所以我看到國外有洗腎車我希望能夠到原偏鄉服務那後來呢其實他們告訴我說就搭配這個在宅醫療計畫也同意了未來呢可以做在家的洗腎"},{"start":12149.497,"end":12166.324,"text":"但是呢很多的族人告訴我因為他還是有一些條件家裡要有人會做護理那有一些都是獨居老人啊所以可不可以有什麼樣的方式那或者是說像很多這樣的獨居的人有沒有照顧機器人"},{"start":12168.835,"end":12180.534,"text":"那其實還有很多老人家獨居嘛那可不可以我們報一個計畫所有的原住民55歲老人來有一個智慧手錶可以嗎"},{"start":12182.661,"end":12208.858,"text":"这一类的计划其实我们是很欢迎欢迎嘛原民会那我叫原民会要多动头脑主政是卫福部我们跟卫福部其实现在正在努力合作要推动医疗分歧除了医学中心大医院之外希望能够到偏乡甚至到家户到住宅就是在宅医疗我们跟卫福部现在在合作推动这个"},{"start":12209.278,"end":12235.6,"text":"那經濟部會進來經濟部就是有關醫材醫材的這個部分產業還有這個速發部也會進來在這個AI的應用服務好 謝謝那當然有關這個原民偏鄉的部分我們當然很希望跟地方政府還有這個原民會能夠合作謝謝主委您這樣說我就放心因為其實我覺得要的東西很多跟科技有關因為我覺得既是偏鄉"},{"start":12237.021,"end":12259.78,"text":"為了要彌平這個所謂的數位平權 數位落差它就本來就必須政府要給予積極性的差別待遇而不是說我越偏鄉我就越不需要那政府應該要積極的差別待遇所以像這一次花蓮 馬太安溪的煙色湖科技防災就發揮很大的功效因為有無人機團隊去做這個偵查"},{"start":12263.204,"end":12272.498,"text":"運補 真的是發揮很大的功效那我也覺得說其實 園民會可以多提一些科技防災的東西像我們就很需要 人才培育也可以給錢嗎"},{"start":12275.319,"end":12297.322,"text":"像這些非手的訓練但是部會爭取到預算要有執行單位因為他不是公務員在執行的要有執行單位如果這些執行單位也牽涉到其實也都是學界產業界的話其實就不能重疊啦所以我是希望委員會跟其他的其他部會合作啦當然是合作因為他自己提我就怕他無法執行了"},{"start":12298.625,"end":12315.263,"text":"这个我们会来要求因为学界一定会连结到国科会对 连结是可以但是你说它独立的量能有问题有时候跟人家合作也很容易被边缘化如果不够积极的话所以我还是希望说"},{"start":12316.063,"end":12323.325,"text":"他有一個獨立的這樣的一個科技預算那我覺得至少責任感是要有啦那包括我們講的這些農噴這些無人機的運用或者是呢我們希望你們的研究成果落地那這一些科技包括我剛剛講的語言機器人等等我們都希望能夠來做處理那謝謝主委因為聽到您這樣的一個"},{"start":12340.289,"end":12365.076,"text":"回應 我覺得至少我們可以讓園民會有一個方向那謝謝您那另外一個部分其實我也想要再請教一下主委因為很多的原住民學者專家其實他們非常在意所以我才會好幾次的來質詢像我6月18號的時候我有就這個原住民學門的建構來去做質詢"},{"start":12367.377,"end":12391.053,"text":"當時呢 主委你有提到說 你允諾朝原民期刊的方向然後呢 跨部會培立專題研究團隊所以呢 我也在7月3號的時候邀請過科會的夥伴來開一個諮詢會議那麼他們也給我三個承諾就是第一個 會診散落各地的期刊論文把它變專書"},{"start":12392.634,"end":12418.548,"text":"那國際期刊的部分就是由國際學會然後支持國內教授爭取主持那第三個就是知識培力團隊跨部會討論然後會複資本辦那已經又過了三個月了所以我在質詢台上因為我並沒有拿到相關的一個資料所以想要請教一下有沒有盤點了那至少要告訴我期程規劃的方向"},{"start":12420.028,"end":12443.294,"text":"我們人文處其實已經有積極在進行有關國際期刊的部分目前是因為台灣的這個學界評估的結果是沒有能力現在是沒有能力以這個主題要變成是一個國際性的期刊因為國科會是一個行政機關但是有提到我們討論的時候就是說國內教授爭取主持了"},{"start":12443.942,"end":12472.418,"text":"如果國內的教授要成立一個學會這個學會要去辦期刊國科會會支持的好那希望我就是要拿到這樣的一個相關規劃跟期程我總不能好幾個月過去我都給我一些承諾然後我也不知道到底結果如何好那我請我們人文組把這個報告送給你謝謝主委那主委你應該明白我的心思啦就是原名學術化"},{"start":12473.458,"end":12491.89,"text":"學術原民化我的意思是說我們不應該只是說讓整個學術界好像原民進入而是我們希望整個學術界能夠也有原民化族群主流化的概念這個對整個原住民的未來的一個提升是非常重要的"},{"start":12492.37,"end":12511.362,"text":"所以我一直希望就是朝專書出版去累積我們原民的學術能量建立這樣的一個基礎因為現在政府也編很多的錢在做原住民的知識體系但是我覺得那個進展非常的慢而且我也認為方向方法也是有點問題"},{"start":12512.743,"end":12534.053,"text":"但是我希望藉著國科會的力量像專書 期刊這一些能夠慢慢慢慢的把原住民知識生產的方式跟它實踐的一個方法學把它架構起來所以我希望一個月內就是針對我尖關性的這些能夠給我一個回應好嗎好 謝謝主委謝謝吳麗華委員質詢主委請回座接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":12547.761,"end":12550.942,"text":"謝謝主席 我請國科會吳主委請吳主委吳委員好主委好 我們國科會是負責國家科技戰略的規劃那業務牽涉到了跨部會的協作那也有我們科研如何來跟產業協作所以面向可以說相當的廣"},{"start":12570.248,"end":12591.854,"text":"今天在業務報告當中有很多是我們很肯定的計劃希望可以持續那我今天就幾個我比較關注的個案來跟主委討論首先是師大女足案跟我們學術倫理的改革在這個案件當然是國人非常重視關心的是怎麼樣校園裡面會出現這樣可以說是人倫的悲劇"},{"start":12595.515,"end":12621.442,"text":"但是他後來大家就知道說那也是我們的學術計畫研究之一也包括我們國科會的計畫所以主委當時在這個個案上面馬上就做出了處置了我們就這個個案後來做了哪些的追究的處置首先我們對當事的教授包含"},{"start":12623.922,"end":12640.353,"text":"女主的教練跟她的老師我們已經有在記者會有宣布對他們的處罰分別停權五年四年另外我們也對還有追回她的研究補助的經費"},{"start":12641.694,"end":12658.624,"text":"另外我們對學校因為初期管理不當沒有積極的在處理這件事情對學校也有連帶的處分這個我們都在媒體都宣布了終止補助也追繳台師大補助經費246萬中央大學80萬"},{"start":12662.486,"end":12668.45,"text":"那麼這一案呢就不只是學術倫理其實因為他也是失對生的霸凌相當的嚴重所以當時國科會有提到說要針對我們國科會的研究計畫當中涉及人體研究的計畫要做一個全面的清查這個有沒有清查的結果了"},{"start":12679.677,"end":12699.906,"text":"我們已經有清查,然後已經詢這個程序在教育部、衛福部我們共同的平台上面現在已經在處理當中,要分別由教育部跟衛福部發函給這些學校"},{"start":12701.024,"end":12715.223,"text":"那學校要啟動然後要回報到到我們主責的部會包含衛護部教育部那對國科來講收到這個報告以後我們會就這個學術倫理的部分"},{"start":12716.644,"end":12729.108,"text":"再來決定是不是要有一些處置所以全面清查的部分已經在進行還在進行當中我們已經清查完了所以我們目前在等待學校回報嗎對那我們預計什麼時候"},{"start":12732.589,"end":12760.679,"text":"這個deadline是什麼時候什麼時候會收到所有的回報然後我們這裡國科會有辦法做出最終有關學輪的審議是跟委員報告這總共有97件的這個就是說要重新去檢視的案件那都陸陸續續已經回報那我們目前會跟教育部這邊你們要求學校什麼時候之前要回報完成總是有個時間吧有他已經回報回來了全部都回報還是陸陸續續回報"},{"start":12762.559,"end":12776.604,"text":"97件都已經回報給你們所以現在在等你們囉他是回報給教育部因為主責教育部還沒給你們教育部他已經聯絡我們剛好在這個禮拜這個禮拜教育部聯絡你們了所以現在在等國科會做最終學輪的審議是嗎"},{"start":12778.004,"end":12805.666,"text":"不是 因為主責的單位是教育部所以教育部會聯合國科會這邊召開會議然後邀請相關的學者針對那97案教育部跟國科會一起來做對 就是說主責雖然是教育部但他也會找我們那目前有沒有拼桌什麼時間正在約下禮拜或下下禮拜會邀集相關的專家針對這97案的結果去做一個最終的審議看起來應該是10月底啦會有最終的審議或11月初"},{"start":12807.99,"end":12809.454,"text":"對 報告委員 這一面的審議是從裡頭去篩選出說"},{"start":12812.932,"end":12837.996,"text":"比較重大 就是說需要再進入真正人體研究的法規的懲處的我們就會進行敘處所以目前就各個學校所調查的結果我們要去做一個比較詳細的我了解 因為涉及的學校多也有跨部會之間的合作所以這個案件過去這一年多來這個過程我知道主委你從初期就開始關切"},{"start":12838.556,"end":12847.88,"text":"但是國人也在想怎麼會處理的時間需要那麼久呢所以我想後續的處置還是非常重要的這個部分要請主委再來幫忙跟跨部會大家一起來把這個時間要把它抓緊我希望今年底以前我們可以知道一個你們最終檢查的結果"},{"start":12858.044,"end":12875.58,"text":"究竟是不是個案如果是有個案以外其他的案例的話那當然我們的改革要趕快開始啟動所以國科會除了個案之外作為針對後續的改革主委在9月提出4點那第一個是我們的研究人員的學術倫理守則"},{"start":12876.721,"end":12891.966,"text":"新訂喔 已經完成了這個這個肯定你們那關於我們多年期計畫 就是每一年你要再來經過研究倫理的審查 以及你的國科會學術倫理案件審議要點要來修改這兩個這兩個項目我們有沒有 也已經完成了好那"},{"start":12898.939,"end":12910.677,"text":"要請你們再把資料公開或者提供因為我們關心的時候還沒有收到這個後續的這個改革很重要所以請主委要來關切"},{"start":12912.779,"end":12936.949,"text":"主委在這個案件的檢討當中除了這個改革你也提到說希望未來我們的研究計畫學界整體的環境不要只偏重投稿的幾篇論文而是要去注重它實際的貢獻當時主委提到說因為我們不要鼓勵老師單純為了衡量去量產論文就是充點數充偏數主委你認為我們這個後續應該怎麼來做"},{"start":12942.731,"end":12953.813,"text":"我們已經在各處我們各學術處在這個學問召集人會議我們也都宣導過了那相關的這個表格包含計畫申請表格以及在成果"},{"start":12954.775,"end":12983.812,"text":"他要结案的时候他要申报他的计划执行的成果在成果的表现上面我们也都把规范都改了希望能够注重的是他对产业对社会对学术的贡献不是只是在计算论文的偏速这个事情这些机制我们都已经做好了已经开始在执行了同时我们将来也在试探场会对各大学"},{"start":12984.632,"end":13010.065,"text":"會來宣導這個事這個我想對學界整體來說其實是一個非常重大的變革那麼這個問題其實也討論多年就像我在當我也做過國科研究計畫助理我也做過中研院的研究助理這個研究人員必須要為了你們這個量產這個衡量的標準他去每年一定要幾篇一定要登上哪一個期刊一定要怎麼樣這個整個"},{"start":13012.746,"end":13033.007,"text":"回過頭來也影響到整個學術生產的過程所以我認為你們最後這個衡量標準的變革是非常重要的那也很期待它對學界它有一個長遠的良善的影響那看到中研院在今年2月開始也新增了一個叫做敘述性的履歷"},{"start":13034.591,"end":13058.642,"text":"那一樣的意思就是說不只看量要看其他方面的貢獻所以也希望說在我們現在在改革當中嘛未來跟學界也要持續的多聽意見來多溝通我們希望整體的學術環境可以來提升那麼除了學術研究之外國科會也有計畫是災防防災不管是科技上面的經濟也好"},{"start":13060.063,"end":13077.853,"text":"這個我們10月8號福衛8號就齊柏林已經齊運到美國了現在預計是11月要來升空在我們目前台灣的防災當中像這一次花蓮 馬太安我們的福衛5號是不是也事先就有收集到相關的遺像來提供是"},{"start":13078.773,"end":13105.917,"text":"我們災防中心在收集各部位的資料也包含我們國科會自己的資料我們太空中心現在在服役的服衛五號也發揮了蠻大的這個功效所以這個資料我們也同步整合到災防中心做這個研判那服衛八號因為它是未來是一個新系不只是一顆未來會怎麼樣來協助提升我們的災防呢"},{"start":13106.758,"end":13121.597,"text":"福岳八号相较于福岳五号它解析度更精细了可以看得更精准它在明年的春季就会开始提供这个服务跟福岳五号合起来"},{"start":13122.017,"end":13138.112,"text":"我們等於多了一顆衛星了那將來這個能夠觀察的時間更長就是更多次的這個經過台灣的上空我們可以觀察到所以會做得更精準所以明年春季就可以開始來提供那非常期待"},{"start":13138.652,"end":13153.268,"text":"那我們預計一定是希望要順利那我們也看到這個太空中心是不是有預計跟日本的太空公司iSpace有簽訂一個合約我們要來推動台灣首個國家級月球探勘任務嗎"},{"start":13155.058,"end":13176.596,"text":"這個我請吳主任來好 謝謝這是一個open的tent就是公開招標然後我們有兩個籌宅一個是清大一個是我突然忘記哪個學校大概是2028會送上去NULA他上去以後就land在那邊做一個是光學UV量測一個是另外一個量測所以是跟他們有合作 對"},{"start":13177.977,"end":13188.064,"text":"臺灣首次的登月任務預計在2028年我們非常期待也預祝要順利好謝謝主委謝謝謝謝佩儀委員質詢主委請回座接下來請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在接下來請賴慧瑩委員質詢謝謝主席我請那個國科會主委"},{"start":13207.264,"end":13227.431,"text":"天鵝主委是主委那個最強的台南之光還是要再利用這一個時間跟主委來探討一下就是說智慧機器人這一個進度那我想這個智慧機器人的產業計畫在"},{"start":13229.861,"end":13237.787,"text":"明年上路了我相信國科會做了很多的一個準備在10年100億的國發基金還有4年100億的應用科技的一個預算裡頭"},{"start":13248.185,"end":13276.054,"text":"我想在這裡特別跟國科會主委做一個請教主委我們成立新創公司如果以我們過往達成的情形來看的話好像申請的公司非常多可是實際達標的並不多是不是就是說你有一些什麼樣針對的就是機器人產業有沒有什麼樣的配套措施跟一起的目標"},{"start":13276.974,"end":13293.607,"text":"我們配套措施就是第一我們大南方新矽谷在將來要發展也希望能夠協助百官百業現在重點包含健康照護還有旅宿餐飲未來會發展到智慧城市其他的應用"},{"start":13295.024,"end":13303.376,"text":"這個搭配起來會讓我們的服務型機器人的發展至少會創造我們的內需市場創造內需市場能夠讓台灣的產業發展以後又能夠進到國際市場好 主委"},{"start":13309.784,"end":13331.917,"text":"目前我們這個計畫裡頭我們橫跨了哪幾個部會像你的優稅匯率你必須要橫跨財政部然後就是說其他的部會像你這個也是衛福部就像你在講的長照的部分那目前你們的計畫就是說這個跨部會是跨哪幾個部會以智慧機器人這個項目來講"},{"start":13334.773,"end":13354.425,"text":"目前主責的部會包含國科會跟經濟部以及數位發展部是在發展科技的部分那國發會就是編列這個國發基金來協助我們在投資新創以及人才培育的部分"},{"start":13355.325,"end":13378.224,"text":"人在北域也会牵涉到教育部那未来在我刚刚提到在机械人的产业在应用端应用端会牵涉到如果是健康招呼就会有卫福部甚至还有运动部然后在旅宿餐饮的部分也会有经济部交通部等等好你身为一个召集人我想你把这整个"},{"start":13379.265,"end":13396.827,"text":"進程 演成的一個計畫做了一個很好的概括的論述那這裡我特別要講的就是說地方人才的一個培育那在兩個禮拜前我跟教育部請教就是說人才培育跟四幻學校的一個協作"},{"start":13397.367,"end":13420.03,"text":"因為事實上就是說在這整體的一個運作裡頭我們希望就是說我們在地有學校那個學程學程就是等於是他的課程裡頭是不是有辦法排進來那教育部他樂觀其成他希望就是說因為我的白河商工他是國立的他很願意去承接就是說機器人"},{"start":13420.65,"end":13428.436,"text":"他就是在那個基礎的這個那個學習的課程裡頭他們希望把他納入這個課程可是缺老師"},{"start":13430.098,"end":13451.521,"text":"缺失職那你有没有什么比较好的一个建议呢这一部分如果是在高职的部分我们是建议可能可以跟我们的科技大学这边一起来合作那科技大学在国科会的部分我们也会编预算来支持特别是在南部这些科技大学"},{"start":13452.302,"end":13470.669,"text":"那你有沒有建議就是說幾個比較優的科技大學那你看教育部還可以編預算給他這個就是都是製造雙贏是那教育部其實不是只有在中小學教育部也有在技職師在科技大學的部分他們也有投資所以像"},{"start":13471.329,"end":13498.568,"text":"像在台南的话有好几个科技大学都不错主委所以我想这个会后再跟你做一个探讨这个四环学校那需要的一个师资还有需要的一个经费那我们是不是朝着先把这个四环学校先把它就是做了一个计划那这样子的话等于是说在末端的时候我们还是有人才的一个培育可以到位好不好"},{"start":13501.209,"end":13518.14,"text":"好,那在這裡我還特別要跟那個主委講到了就是說你這個每一個部會的具體的一個跨部會合作的SOP還有就是100億投資引進的一個機制跟目標跟企業的一個進度表這個你要給我"},{"start":13519.201,"end":13536.387,"text":"还有就是AI机器人四万学校那个四万学校的一个协作的一个规划跟国科会协作的一个项目也请你把资料给我好不好好谢谢主委谢谢赖会员委员质询主委请回座"},{"start":13537.607,"end":13565.718,"text":"接下来请严宽恒委员质询严宽恒委员不在请徐富奎委员质询徐富奎委员不在请高金素梅委员质询高金素梅委员不在请罗明才委员质询罗明才委员不在请钟嘉斌委员质询钟嘉斌委员不在请苏清泉委员质询"},{"start":13566.759,"end":13590.038,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在 請吳思瑤委員質詢吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在 請林楚英委員質詢林楚英 林楚英委員不在 請何欣淳委員質詢何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在 請蔡易瑜委員質詢蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在"},{"start":13593.254,"end":13611.313,"text":"那邱委員邱志偉要發言了那給您3分鐘好謝謝主席有請國科會吳主委請主委"},{"start":13620.334,"end":13645.425,"text":"請問幾次跟你討論這個台積電的全球佈局全球佈局當然也包括國內佈局國內佈局當然我關心是這個男子產業園區男子產業園區台積電確定有5場都是2奈米這你知道嗎現在大概規劃第6場我看媒體有報導說第6場1.4奈米會落腳高雄不曉得你掌握的狀況怎麼樣那高雄裡面有幾個選區有幾個幾塊可以選擇"},{"start":13650.195,"end":13673.323,"text":"還是在南市產業園區,不怕那些地有夠窮,另外一地就是在岡山跟橋頭交接的白浦產業園區,溝通夠好,生活性又便利。就您了解的狀況,有沒有可能這個第六場1.4奈比的,駐落在高雄,白浦,那白浦產業園區的條件,您覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":13676.375,"end":13684.74,"text":"目前 報告委員目前我們當然很積極在跟台積電在討論可能的園區的位置"},{"start":13686.106,"end":13705.754,"text":"但是這個先進製程要形成聚落所以目前台積電所選還是希望在南梓科學園區能夠有六個廠的建置現在高雄市政府也在努力努力的在其實南梓產業園區跟百貨商業園區距離大概只有五公里"},{"start":13707.75,"end":13722.81,"text":"對 但是因為這個是成本上它在這個整個基礎設施的建置 供應鏈還有管線等等如果它是同一個聚落它才有辦法降低它的成本蘇護主委一直點頭我再請蘇護主委上來好了"},{"start":13723.809,"end":13738.864,"text":"一直在嚇唬我啊好 叔叔叔會講得比我更清楚不是 白鶴產業園已經最了解嘛這個跟南市產業園區大概五公里的距離那剛剛市政委希望說把它分散當然不會影響到它聚落的形成啦"},{"start":13739.525,"end":13761.611,"text":"因為不是一南一北 距離才5公里你覺得白埔財運園區的條件如何其實所有基地的開發都是涉及到廠商的需求那是我們尊重廠商的需求那所有的這些交通動線或者是再生水這些相關的基地的這個條件要能夠配置起來再生水我們努力了很久 原來沒有鋼橋再生水廠我努力之下才有再生水廠因為水電沒有問題嘛"},{"start":13763.291,"end":13785.785,"text":"所以這個都是搭配性的 整體配套措施在基地的周邊我們都要備具上廠商的需求固然重要 但是政策的建議跟引導也非常重要我一直期待說不管是經濟部 國花會或者是國科會能夠在政策上給你一些建議你說把六個廠完全集中在這個男子餐廳固然不行但是如果能稍微分散一下"},{"start":13786.874,"end":13804.531,"text":"而2奈米的全部集中在楠梓但未來這個如果1.4奈米可以集中在這個百福財源區 也許還可以設第7場也不一定所以我是建議說今天特別會來跟主委跟副主委拜託就是說一定要在政策上面給一些建議跟引導"},{"start":13806.693,"end":13828.05,"text":"委員建議我們當然會提供給台積電由他們來評估它的可行性好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝邱志文委員的發言諸位請回座那現在請徐副會委員質詢但時間可能要打個折扣三分鐘 謝謝請諸位謝主席 有請吳諸位謝謝"},{"start":13832.302,"end":13839.026,"text":"主委我們國科會目前規劃台灣首批的六顆低軌通訊衛星預計2027年發射那從美國這邊進行嗎主委這個有信心兩年之內會完成嗎"},{"start":13845.903,"end":13873.814,"text":"我们第一颗预计2027年初第一颗那当然我们现在按照时程在进行当中那我们台湾自制的火箭什么时候可以发射升空我们台湾自制的火箭目前的规划是我们去年宣布就是十年所以在2034那能不能加快因为我们现在都已经在做太空产业尤其在屏东已经做了这个"},{"start":13874.614,"end":13891.235,"text":"加快它的困難度在於我們國家發射廠的建置的程序我們現在也是按照程序在進行當然如果有機會加快的話我想我們在科技研發研發的部分再努力可以提前是沒有問題"},{"start":13893.156,"end":13908.5,"text":"也要特別感謝諸位支持把這個發射廠能夠設在屏東那對屏東來講已經跳脫過去的農業線的我們希望能夠發展成一二三級的一個全方位的一個產業報告委員 這個酒棚不是這個棚打錯了 這是中間對 未來我們在屏東要建立這個研發中心有機會嗎"},{"start":13915.424,"end":13930.32,"text":"在哪裡屏東建立這個太空的研發中心有機會嗎研發中心我們現在鼓勵各學術界都進來做所以屏東也有不錯的學校不管屏東大學 屏東科技大學我們都歡迎學者來進行我們太空科技的研發"},{"start":13931.192,"end":13953.62,"text":"那除了這個學術合作之外因為我知道現在目前我們教育部這邊合訂了包含陽明交大、成大跟台北科技大學跟馮甲大學做這樣的一個太空工程研究所那我們屏東剛剛主委有講我們有屏東大學跟屏東科技大學應該未來就地取材就地來培育我們的這個太空產業是是是 我們非常鼓勵"},{"start":13954.76,"end":13966.267,"text":"在屏東的這些高等學府研究機構都來跟我們太空中心合作我們會協助他們來發展對 主委 另外我們鄉親我們屏東的鄉親比較關心的這個太空產業到底是一個金雞母還是一個只會長兩歲的雞母你覺得未來對於我們這個基礎建設跟產業部分有沒有什麼樣的給我們鄉親一個比較正面的一個消息"},{"start":13981.177,"end":14002.205,"text":"我們覺得台灣有實力形成未來在低軌通訊衛星的產業鏈裡面變成是一個蠻關鍵的一個角色現在我們電子五個裡面有兩家公司也進來已經積極跟我們台灣中心在合作一個是偽算自通另外一個就是人寶電腦"},{"start":14004.146,"end":14028.393,"text":"把智慧製造我們台灣強項就是在自動性系統的智慧製造結合我們未來太空通訊衛星的系統包含衛星本體籌載以及地面站還有使用者的終端設備等等將來這個產業鏈形成起來以後特別是我們在南部的投資會連結在一起將來在全世界的供應鏈會佔有很重要的角色"},{"start":14030.005,"end":14045.297,"text":"主委 我想我們期待未來這個能夠在酒棚這邊另外設立一個太空博物館跟教育館未來我們的這個學校校外教學不是只有來看我們肯定國家公園應該也要做一個先進科技的一個教育你剛才也支持這樣的一個方向"},{"start":14046.697,"end":14066.143,"text":"有啊現在平東縣政府還有台東縣政府因為鄰近的地區雙東一起來我們會在共同發展剛才委員說這個不管是博物館還是教育館我們會好好的規劃跟兩個地方政府來合作這個拜託我們期程要加快再拜託主委一下謝謝好 謝謝謝謝副國務委員質詢主委請回座"},{"start":14071.616,"end":14099.47,"text":"今天登记质询委员均已发言完毕另有谢龙健委员提出书面质询关于今天会议做如下决定报告及询答完毕委员所提书面质询或相关资料列入记录并刊登公报对于委员质询要求提供相关资料或未及答复部分请相关机关尽速以书面答复报告委员会今天议程处理完毕现在散会谢谢各位"}]}},{"id":"16969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16969","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e8a46bec1ad1976d34658218f82e712290aa126c40303dc2760e0b6bcbf8a4fe45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-22T08:41:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T12:26:00+08:00","duration":13444,"影片長度":"03:44:04","委員發言時間":"08:41:56 - 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陳主席長歡迎"},{"start":1400.151,"end":1425.687,"text":"公務預算處處長徐永毅徐處長歡迎你財政部我們部長今天去參加APEC會議所以今天有我們的政務司長阮清華阮次長歡迎國庫署的陳柏誠陳署長歡迎你負稅署李志忠李副署長歡迎官務署蘇副署長歡迎你"},{"start":1429.184,"end":1445.383,"text":"國產署 郭小榮 郭副署長 歡迎您財政資訊中心 謝明峰 謝副主任 歡迎您我們現在就請行政院主席總署陳主席長來進行專題報告"},{"start":1455.149,"end":1480.783,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀貴委員會就中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法修正後一般性補助款審查和評比基準財務計劃檢核基礎撥款方式等規範和作業程序為何然後修改財力及次計算公司之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何計劃型補助款範圍以業務定義"},{"start":1484.865,"end":1511.26,"text":"對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額的影響提出專題報告資檢要說明如下第一個為充裕地方財力促進地方均衡發展本次在修正財劃法之前中央已經透過中央統籌分配稅一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款三項的財源持續協助地方從105年的三者合共5549億到115年"},{"start":1514.542,"end":1517.145,"text":"度中央對地方挹注高達一兆1650億元"},{"start":1523.057,"end":1540.786,"text":"整個比105年度多出兩倍然後也比114年增加1519億創歷史新高所以中央持續加大挹注地方的一個財力整體它稅出的盈餘由101年度的短處589億到113年度的剩餘818億"},{"start":1548.089,"end":1552.833,"text":"一年以上的未償債務餘額也由1105年的高峰8689億減到113年度的7400餘億那114年3月21他公布修正財化法中央和地方的財政資源"},{"start":1565.402,"end":1582.135,"text":"经过大幅度的一个调整这115地方可获得统筹分配税是8841亿比休华前大增4165亿比114年度成长约9成然后这里面他也规范说"},{"start":1582.755,"end":1601.062,"text":"一般性補助款不得少於修法前的預算額度也就是兩千五百零一億這次修法只有調整中央的地方稅收大幅削弱中央可運用來調劑地方營需引導台灣均能發展的財源但是並未"},{"start":1602.282,"end":1619.072,"text":"並同檢討中央和地方的事權所以如果維持以往的一個補助的內容和方式那加上中央在國防安全公共建設科技發展社會福利等方面支出所需要的預算"},{"start":1619.992,"end":1634.28,"text":"将违反公共债务法的举债流量上限15%的规定所以中央115年度总预算的抽编非常困难所以中央必须要调整补助的项目和范围"},{"start":1635,"end":1656.76,"text":"那補助的辦法在114年8月29日修正發布第二條補助辦法第二條規定中央位模全國之經濟平衡發展得市直轄市縣市政府財政收支狀況具有效益涵蓋面廣跨越視線具有釋放性作用以及因中央重大政策事項予以補助"},{"start":1657.461,"end":1681.977,"text":"其中一般性補助款包括具經常性普及性基本建設和維運性質還有財政均衡等四項二計劃型補助是以一般性補助以外的一個四項它的性質有規類如下第一個涉及特定區域或對個別事項的一個協助第二個就是依法由主管機關編列預算的一個補助"},{"start":1682.717,"end":1708.553,"text":"第四個是一百一十五年一般性補助總共編列兩千五百零一億元內容主要是協助弱勢保養社會福利經費四百零六億元第二個專項補助具經常性普及性或其他基本建設維運性質的有一千七百六十四億元包括一教育八百一十九億元二福利照顧和社會安全三百四十億元三"},{"start":1709.133,"end":1732.447,"text":"文化體育治水道路交通等基本設施605億元還有第三個財政均衡補助和考核獎勵金是331億元財政均衡主要是保障市縣115年度統籌分配稅款一般性補助和計劃型補助的一個家種只多不少五"},{"start":1734.315,"end":1757.117,"text":"補助機關公開透明補助訂有相關的一個規範如下第一個補助辦法第三條中央各主管機關應就補助項目補助比率計劃評比基準和相關程序訂定處理原則第九條也規定中央主管機關對直轄市申請的補助款按他的補助性質訂定明確和客觀的審查評比基準"},{"start":1758.578,"end":1783.031,"text":"財務計畫 檢核基礎和撥款方式等規範通知直轄市政府於一定期限內提出申請補助款的撥款依行政院所定的撥款原則辦理那這些的補助款的處理原則和申請規範作業程序應補助計畫多元是由中央各主管機關按補助項目的性質予以規範 審查和評比"},{"start":1787.714,"end":1803.681,"text":"評比基準還有財務計畫以交通部來講相關的大眾捷運系統的周邊土地開發生產作業要點都明定審核地方政府可行性的一個研究包括綜合規劃書然後必須要一併檢視經濟和財務效益還有相關計算指標包括經濟效益評估指標"},{"start":1811.884,"end":1826.421,"text":"的季限值一本比還有內生報酬率等還有財務評估指標的一個自償率經營比負債比率等還有明確規範個財率及次的自償率和非自償率的補助比率"},{"start":1827.262,"end":1848.836,"text":"三115年一般性補助屬於經常性普及性和基本建設維運性質的專項補助有1764億元本總數在114年9月7日召開會議向各機關和各縣市妥為說明分配方式那可量化指標的項目總共有959億元那請部會也朝"},{"start":1852.719,"end":1863.829,"text":"就是簡化地方填表方式來申請取以805億元也是透過明確和客觀的審查指標請部會朝簡化方式和地方溝通辦理4"},{"start":1867.593,"end":1882.198,"text":"為撥款作業方面本院定有補助款撥款原則依補助計畫金額按級距採購花包與我以及補助項目性質而定撥款方式包括採購花包後一次撥付分期撥付"},{"start":1883.564,"end":1902.33,"text":"然后后续依进度拨户等等至少保留5%为款再完成结算使得拨户那人事会基本维运对民众补贴的项目则依据实际付款条件和业务需要来拨户另外补助办法第三条中央对直辖市县市政府就所"},{"start":1904.488,"end":1922.825,"text":"對縣市政府補助應該依財力級距給予不同補助補利最高補助百分之九十因第四條規定直轄市和縣市的財力級距依最近三年自有財源比例的平均值依序平均列為五級並由本總署每三年檢討一次"},{"start":1923.405,"end":1940.095,"text":"自由財源比例是指稅入扣除補助和協助收入後佔稅數的一個比例考量財化法修正以後跟縣市自由財源影響甚至於稅務部分有加計財化法修正後統籌分配稅款影響來涉算結於本次財化法修正後"},{"start":1940.655,"end":1954.38,"text":"中央大量釋出四千一百六十五億元但是卻沒有並同檢討釋權不僅造成垂直分配不公影響中央施政量能之外也造成水平分配不公的地方所獲"},{"start":1956.401,"end":1981.254,"text":"以地方所獲得統籌分配稅款一般性補助和計劃型三項加總增加最高的市縣達275億元但是仍然有台南市等9個市縣貨配低於修法前為解決此不合理現象本市中央對地方補助薪資中保留財政均衡補助及考核獎金331億元藉此保障所有市縣115年所獲得統籌分配稅一般"},{"start":1985.316,"end":1996.527,"text":"性補助及計劃性補助三項加總比114年只增不減 以上報告敬請各位委員 理事先生指教 祝大家健康快樂 萬事如意謝謝好 我們謝謝陳組長那現在我們來確認"},{"start":2003.405,"end":2020.516,"text":"我們先確認這個上次的會議議事錄請問在場的兩位委員對上次會議的議事錄有沒有意義 沒有意義他們上次的議事錄確定現在我們請財政部阮清華 阮市長做專題報告"},{"start":2029.741,"end":2044.82,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早安今天貴委員會邀請主席總署跟本部就中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法修正後一般性補助款審查與評比的基準財務計畫檢核的基礎"},{"start":2048.278,"end":2074.346,"text":"撥款方式等規範及作業程序等等這些問題那麼進行專案報告以下請就涉及本部業務的部分就是包括就是統籌分配稅款這部分做一個簡要的說明進行指教中央對地方裁員的依註包括統籌稅款及一般性及計劃性補助款鑒於新版的裁判法列金總統在"},{"start":2076.087,"end":2095.879,"text":"今年的3月21號公佈施行統籌稅款的規模大幅度增加在考量地方自有財源增加及維持中央財政穩健下行政院主席總署配合檢討補助的制度基於中央對地方補助適宜"},{"start":2096.839,"end":2111.768,"text":"系屬主席總書的權責本部原則上尊重主席總書的規劃另外經以115年度各稅預算案資料來涉算統籌稅款規模達到新台幣8841億元比今年度4676億元增加4165億元成長89%"},{"start":2125.023,"end":2139.601,"text":"相对使中央政府经常性的收入大幅度减少严重冲击中央施政能量及调剂地方政府间财政营需的能力为了达成均衡城乡 均衡台湾的目标"},{"start":2140.302,"end":2167.621,"text":"需要全盤來檢討新版的裁划法在水平分配部分本部已經在去昨天在邀集各地方政府在先前三次會商既有的共識的基礎之下繼續討論協商尋求最大的共識至於垂直分配部分是中央以地方市權的分配跟支出市權的調整相關主管機關也已經進行開始進行研議"},{"start":2169.862,"end":2187.257,"text":"等到获治结论之后本部将并案纳入裁划法的修正草案循法制作业的程序那么配合行政院的政策来办理以上说明敬请各位为指教谢谢好我们谢谢阮次长"},{"start":2189.619,"end":2209.635,"text":"我們現在開始詢答先做一下宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘不要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記我們現在依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員來質詢"},{"start":2234.295,"end":2256.429,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請陳主席長好請主席長委員好主席長你好主席長我請教因為主計總署修正補助辦法調整一般性補助款補助範圍將在明年適用"},{"start":2257.318,"end":2283.059,"text":"那有媒體就是報導說目前送立法院的115年度預算也將受到影響那主席長針對媒體報導修正辦法把一般性的補助款納入部分原本歸在計畫型補助的事項而且地方申請一般性補助款需要經過各部會核定"},{"start":2284.301,"end":2300.488,"text":"那請問你認為會不會有自在難行的地方這個部分我跟委員報告因為我們今年在115年預算的籌備上是遭遇到很大的一個困難就是說第一個我們原來的一個"},{"start":2301.71,"end":2316.802,"text":"那個財化法修正以後我們把一宣統籌分配稅款分出去4165億然後又指定一般性補助款要為止2501億元的一個水準那但是相關的事權卻沒有移出去"},{"start":2317.262,"end":2336.922,"text":"所以這整個一個破壞的整個中央政府的一個財政的一個韌性也打擊到他要對縣市地方政府補助的一個能力所以這個部分我們不得不調整這個補助的一個項目和範圍那這個部分我們也針對計劃型補助裡面有一些是"},{"start":2338.283,"end":2356.765,"text":"在申请上它的过程程序是比较繁复我们希望把它简化所以有一部分虽然到一般性补助里面项目来罗列但是我们也简化它相关的一个申请程序所以保证它将来在执行的部分事实上是没有问题"},{"start":2357.967,"end":2376.401,"text":"你認為財化法修法前後以及補助辦法修正前後中央與地方政府在施政的效力和效能上可能會發生哪些變化對全體國人又會有哪些的影響依您看"},{"start":2377.506,"end":2400.407,"text":"第一个我们对于那个我们都希望能够均衡能够照顾的我们整个一个所有的二十二县市的所有的全体国民能够受到均衡的照顾但是现在如果是这样因为它在水平分配上会有一个很大的一个落差所以现在我们把它整个部分"},{"start":2400.967,"end":2419.924,"text":"按財力分級來做一個分配分配之後然後我們也把它簡化所以這個部分整個如果是屬於原來縣市應該辦的事項我們整個把它下放給縣市直接來辦理整個對縣市來講的部分就不用再經過"},{"start":2421.105,"end":2440.916,"text":"中央的一个拨款或者相关的一个程序这个部分整个就在程序上是会比较顺利那如果说计划型的一个补助的部分呢如果整个一个以往都必须要透过计划的申请现在我们也给它简化所以整个在程序上是顺利很多"},{"start":2441.576,"end":2469.962,"text":"主席長 是修正補助辦法中陣列中央主管機關對直轄市縣市政府申請一般性的補助款應訂定計畫審查與評比的基準這個財務計畫檢核基礎以及撥款方式等這些規範以及作業的程序那我請問主席長"},{"start":2472.443,"end":2492.408,"text":"中央機關主管審查基準是採因地質疑還是因事質疑又或者是因人質疑換句話說有學者就指出說新辦法對一般性補助款所列舉的經常性"},{"start":2493.376,"end":2521.393,"text":"普及性以及基本建設或維運性質以及財政均衡等用語背離補助款制度應追求的透明公開與公式化的原則所以容易導致政治分配甚至於黑箱作業進一步來加深地方財源的不確定性我請問主席長"},{"start":2522.728,"end":2547.114,"text":"妳有什麼看法其實一般性補助裡面本來裡面就有一些指定的項目那指定的項目也是都有訂一些相關的一個管考一個規定那所以這個部分現在只是說它的項目可能很多很多都是原來的計劃型的補助的項目的延伸那所以現在如果說這個部分我們再給它簡化的話"},{"start":2547.654,"end":2572.71,"text":"事實上在整個程序上是比較順利另外我們也把原來縣市應辦的項目回歸給地方去辦理地方直接就可以辦理不需要再透過中央的撥款的一個程序所以這個部分應該是更簡化它的一個程序所以也沒有所謂四人而是它是看業務的一個性質然後本身就它的各縣市的一個需求"},{"start":2573.11,"end":2595.136,"text":"所以這個部分是由各部會去做一個檢討和改進主席長 是中華經濟研究院上個禮拜五發布今年第四季台灣整個經濟的預測大幅上修全年經濟成長率到5.45%第四季甚至比第三季整個預測預估的3.05%大增2.4%"},{"start":2603.176,"end":2629.71,"text":"對於預測機構紛紛上修全年的經濟成長率主計長在上個禮拜財委會答詢時你也說AI需求持續抗好今年經濟成長率應該有點低估啦那應該是可以再超過4.5%那我請問主計長主計總數上修第四季整個經濟成長率的估測主因是什麼"},{"start":2631.718,"end":2647.444,"text":"第一个是我们要看第三季因为第三季它事实上状况还是很好所以等于是说它的一个热度并没有说减少很多所以当初本来预估它可能会减少因为关税的因素会减少很多但是事实上并没有"},{"start":2647.864,"end":2668.736,"text":"所以這個部分我們當初預估以主計總數是預估4.45那其他國外也有預估是5.1還有包括中研院他預估的部分是5.45比我們高出一個百分點那目前我們也大概預估我們是有點低估大概我們是預估至少會達到百分之五這個"},{"start":2670.337,"end":2695.487,"text":"如果按照第三季的一個情況去做預估可能是有點低估主席長因為中青院估算台灣GDP年長率年增率5%當中有4個百分點是來自AI相關那我請問主席長那是不是代表AI以外的這些國內產業很多都是經濟衰退的"},{"start":2696.317,"end":2724.265,"text":"是不是 传产是比较影响比较大但是现在就是说我们本身因为我们又有韧性韧性5500亿下它也会有影响影响本身大概将近1.1个百分点所以这个部分对将来的一个经济一个成长本身是有助益的还包括我们追加预算包括我们相关的一个这个对整个经济成长都是有所帮助的"},{"start":2724.565,"end":2742.59,"text":"主席長 是五月底美國總統川普對等關稅政策攪亂了全球的整個經濟情勢那主席總署當時還說今年經濟成長率勉強飽三那主席長川普對等關稅政策到現在"},{"start":2743.53,"end":2752.039,"text":"也還沒有定案那中華民國的關稅條件甚至於比日本韓國還要差那我請問主計長你認為上修經濟成長率會不會太過於樂觀會不會"},{"start":2760.051,"end":2775.613,"text":"所以现在就是说因为我们关税的部分一直都还没有确定而且半导体的影响有一些大部分都是豁免关税所以它一般的一个后市市也仍然并没有说"},{"start":2776.935,"end":2797.939,"text":"那因為這樣子所以還是有看好所以反正這個它的一個長勢那你們這樣一估會不會太樂觀還是全球經濟成長有爆發性台灣更是獨步全球又或者現在只是衰退現象的延後未來還是要面對衰退的一個苦果你的看法呢"},{"start":2798.911,"end":2823.134,"text":"所以這個部分因為台灣受AI和半導體的影響還是很大這個部分所以我們還是希望說還是預估其實我們主計總署預估本身就是比較低估但是中央醫院整身的一個預估它就是達到5.45比我們多出一個百分點但是我們大概預估也不會低於5如果修正預估的部分"},{"start":2823.815,"end":2848.977,"text":"另外本席要請教根據主計總署消費者物價指數CPI來看9月年增率為1.25%創下2021年4月以來的新低核心的CPI年增率1.46%則是7個月來的新低只要攸關小老百姓17項重要的民生物價"},{"start":2852.375,"end":2877.33,"text":"這個漲幅擴大到2.47%那卻是一年半以來最大的漲幅那我請問主計長為什麼重要民生物價漲幅會持續的攀升你認為下降的可能性有可能性嗎簡單的來講像這些外食的物價受影響調漲後你認為有調降的可能嗎"},{"start":2878.257,"end":2906.476,"text":"因為我們大部分主要是水果 蔬菜還有外食類這個部分是長得比較維持然後這個部分主要是因為我們受那個災害或天氣的影響但是這個部分它是短暫性的所以它本身就會像一般國外的一個整個一個材料 原料 原物料包括石油它都是往下降所以它整個368項的一個產品它都是整個平均之後它是往下降"},{"start":2908.538,"end":2918.676,"text":"提供17項重要民生物資相關的物價還有也有分中低收入家庭相關的物價來提供參考"},{"start":2919.963,"end":2946.518,"text":"那個最後一個我想就是包括台鐵的便當八十塊他現在裡面的排骨還有肉塊都變小縮水或許是足跡總住和台鐵都有理由來這個解釋但是民眾對外食物價的看法就是反映低薪高物價的無奈本席以為民眾掏錢買便當三十年前都是"},{"start":2947.418,"end":2975,"text":"重重隆隆游刃有餘三十年後的現在卻是貨比三家還是買不下手買個便當哀嚎太貴又怕被笑沒出息換來的卻是政府機關掩飾太平的沒關係那我請問主席長政府有足夠的魄力和有效的辦法改變現狀縮小貧富差距嗎如果有的話那為什麼"},{"start":2976.381,"end":2992.857,"text":"幾十年來任薪資趕不上物價上漲如果沒有那像那個普發現金是常態又有又合常不是一種重分配提升民眾生活增加心理韌性的做法主席長你有什麼看法"},{"start":2993.328,"end":3017.677,"text":"因為我們都有定期召開物價穩定的一個小組來做討論但是沒有用啊定期召開我知道啊然後也有針對這個部分像我們有很多的一個一轉四的支出就整個是在降低整個財富一個貧富差距的一個整個的一個平均數我是認為政府是控制不了的而且那個物價穩定小組我認為那個也沒有用謝謝好 謝謝好 現在請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":3030.578,"end":3057.498,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部阮次長請阮次長委員好次長早根據您的報告114年度的統籌分配稅款的規模是4676億那你有沒有估算過到了年底實際上會是多少"},{"start":3058.174,"end":3083.059,"text":"因為這是預估數嘛 這個不是實際數這個是按照通知分配數嘛對 但是以前歷年每一年到了年底的時候有剩餘的時候還會再一波嘛對…好 那以113年來講113年你的預估數是多少113年了統籌分配數 因為113年已經結束了114年現在到10月就還有兩個多月嘛所以你今年"},{"start":3084.318,"end":3093.526,"text":"估算數是4676我認為會高於4676有可能不是有可能是一定會所以我拿113年來跟你檢討你113年的數字是多少113年的數字你現在趕快提供給次長113"},{"start":3104.624,"end":3113.992,"text":"45394539是預估數嗎那實際數是多少實際分配的數字4539那原來的預估數是多少原來預估數是這樣 我是不是待會再他們找到以後再來補充我就是要跟你講說其實你這個預估數是失真你這個預估數"},{"start":3131.918,"end":3141.08,"text":"規模少太多了像舉個例子你的報告裡面講說114年度476億元到了115年會增加到8841億所以會增加4165億不止啦因為台灣的GDP像剛剛主席長講的今年可能會增加5%那光這5%的消費稅整個國內的消費規模會增加多少"},{"start":3159.005,"end":3177.386,"text":"那增加多少裡面5%的消費稅收會增加多少所以你這個都比原來實際要發生的數字都保守就是說如果它稅收繼續比亂稅增加的話那當然出去的金額就大了今天的媒體報導我看到說昨天的媒體報導說"},{"start":3180.331,"end":3196.151,"text":"9月的這個電子產品包括AI的這個訂單是900多億美金創歷史紀錄那以前的歷史紀錄就700多億而已一口氣拉高到100多億美金這個GDP規模當然我知道你現在是"},{"start":3196.832,"end":3211.522,"text":"就兩塊嘛 M型傳產的部分因為被中國這種政府補貼然後這個沒有照民主國沒有照自由世界的這個經濟方式在運作所以傳產的部分都被中國捲得很厲害全世界都一致"},{"start":3213.46,"end":3234.559,"text":"有的人就是不會去怪中國他就是怪自己的政府不管他是從哪個觀點來看但是我們在電子跟AI這部分不得了現在全世界成長最快的就是美國跟台灣所以GDP顯然會增加很多所以這個我想委員都很清楚不然講113年"},{"start":3237.748,"end":3244.097,"text":"後來第二波再撥給地方政府的有多少第二波的 就是到年底年底的時候再撥的460"},{"start":3251.296,"end":3271.943,"text":"465億啦那就是比你餘估數要多的東西嘛因為只要是時增數超過預算數的話就會有額外在撥的問題啦那因為你們的預算的收入你們把那預算的收入我講了非常多遍你們都估得很保守所以讓每一次時收數都高過預算數很多那就引起很多政治上無謂的紛擾"},{"start":3273.203,"end":3295.597,"text":"所以我了解過去這幾年的確是有這種情況不只這幾年 今年也一樣今年我跟委員報告今年到目前實收數會比較少的原因是因為你因應關稅所以讓他可以延緩繳稅然後可以以前的預估稅也不收了是因為這樣子所以你們預算的執行數才稍微落後"},{"start":3297.179,"end":3309.51,"text":"最主要他是同意他分期或者是延期繳納那一塊再補回來你們還是超過預算數這個要看到年底到目前為止不然我們來打賭你敢不敢"},{"start":3311.147,"end":3327.245,"text":"這個東西真的是很難因為十月十一月我敢跟你打賭不然我們來打賭誰輸誰吃掉我想這不是打賭明明就看得到的東西讓你們財政部每次的估算都要算得這麼保守"},{"start":3328.186,"end":3354.825,"text":"我不知道這個意義在哪裡你們意義說我們的徵收稅數我都已經達到百分之百所以我們的表現很好我在這邊講過非常多次了就算你們的稅收收不到百分之百稅到百分之九十八百分之九十九有誰會怪你們呢因為那是一個預估數啊那你們就寧願把它估得非常的保守然後讓實徵數來超過預算數很多就讓人家講說你看人家還稅於民還稅於民是個假議題嘛"},{"start":3356.346,"end":3382.174,"text":"全民都拿到又不是繳稅人拿到那還稅給誰啊你如果要還稅於民真正的定義誰繳還給誰對不對那不是嘛就是隨便扣一個帽子就亂講那就是因為始作俑者的原因就是我講的你們的估計都真的估得太保守你看113年度最後一波額外撥補400多億給地方政府"},{"start":3383.052,"end":3411.776,"text":"我相信今年114年一樣甚至還超過400多億這個數字因為今年比較特別因為還有台美關稅的問題台美關稅的問題所以現在還很難預料總統昨天已經跟你講好消息了台美關稅第一會比現在的再降第二不疊加第三關於電子產品那一部分還有更好的條件是"},{"start":3412.958,"end":3439.846,"text":"你現在講這個是跟總統昨天講的是你是打他的臉是不是也不是啦其實我是覺得像其實政府的努力要讓全民知道這麼努力在做然後被你看前面的資訊把你們講得一無是處所以我跟委員報告所以我們過去我也跟委員報告過就是說我們現在成立這個就是有關預算估測的小組其實它也發揮一定的功能就比如說像今年來講"},{"start":3440.846,"end":3449.832,"text":"我覺得會不會到委員講的400多億這個其實還在未定之天但是基本上我們已經朝一定會超過4676億這一點肯定吧我剛剛跟你講的是一定會超過4676億不會不會不會"},{"start":3458.136,"end":3484.428,"text":"這個目前的估測以我們目前的相關單位的估測今年是相對保守啦也就是說到目前為止啦就中央來講是大概減了比去年同期的話大概減了1.7%所以到這個下個月我就剛剛跟你講了你會少1.7的原因是你同意讓人家延緩還有分期啊你如果沒有這個東西的話你現在是超過這個"},{"start":3485.709,"end":3508.677,"text":"超過這個一點多啊沒有錯但是他既然准他延期或分期以後我今年就不能用了嘛是啦那所以是因為你的政策同意讓他延緩繳稅嘛那我要如果這樣的話我如果可以這樣調整的話那我都故意啊我讓你今年要繳的稅明年再繳那我當然我今年就達不到啦但是我們現在就是算實際數因為主計跟財政這兩個單位對於這個數字"},{"start":3513.12,"end":3532.05,"text":"我個人是認為一定要精確不然在施政上會發生很多的扭曲謝謝委員指教這一部分我們真的在努力希望能夠將來在估算的時候更精準另外你們現在在跟地方政府在談這個分配財政收支劃分法我認為正本清源它除了收還有支"},{"start":3533.3,"end":3562.274,"text":"所以資的部分要先釐清權責要先劃分清楚之後才根據資的部分誰的權責要花多少錢再來分配你千萬不要收的部分先分一分之後然後資的部分沒有釐清那給他那麼多錢我以新北市政府而言我來自新莊嘛新北市政府光統合分配稅款多了四五百億那你如果沒有跟他講要怎麼用的話那這四五百億要幹嘛拿來普發嗎"},{"start":3563.658,"end":3584.951,"text":"所以跟委員報告所以我們現在就是雙管齊下第一個就檢討這個垂直分配我覺得行政院把能力拿出來啦現在已經在做了那個分配都有在做很慢啦你這個去我記得今年年初的時候跟我回答說本來的草案"},{"start":3586.115,"end":3602.132,"text":"是要今年的年終就要提出了就現在已經到了年底了你們現在還在開會還在檢討然後明年看起來今年要提都來不及了嘛那前兩天卓院長還在那邊四眼淡淡說要提出新的版本"},{"start":3603.716,"end":3627.919,"text":"雖然你提出了新的版本我認為本院不會採取因為本院現在討論事情只比力量沒有在跟你比道理的但是你仍然應該要很認真的快一點提出是 我跟委員報告我們現在是真的是積極在處理比如說昨天我們開會是針對是什麼針對水平分配那部分我看你昨天開會是因為今天要開這個會"},{"start":3629.572,"end":3656.307,"text":"如果今天沒有要開這個會你昨天會開那個會嗎我跟委員特別澄清這個跟今天的這個財委會完全是脫鉤的這個很早就決定了那個開會通知很早就發出去了好 那我問你你事權的分配什麼時候能夠定案事權分配那一部分有各部會行政院也通令各部會去盤點所以我們會根據那個事權的盤點還有我們水平分配的這個方式我跟你講我現在一個很困難的地方在哪裡呢過去歷年來我"},{"start":3659.088,"end":3675.78,"text":"新莊的學校需要的建設經費我都向中央爭取那問題今年特別困難在哪裡就是因為這個一直不定所以它到底教育部有多少財源可以去使用變成在一個不確定的狀況很多事情都一直跌宕一直延下來"},{"start":3676.894,"end":3694.456,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是現在就是雙管齊下現在我們積極在做那我們現在就是我們深信這一次這一次一定會在這個會期我套一句蘇貞昌院長講的話假案也好 疑案也好拖延案最不好"},{"start":3696.348,"end":3713.375,"text":"因為不定不定就什麼事情都沒有辦法定下來所以你聽懂這句話趕快提出來假案也好 疑案也好雖然本院處理事情比力量沒有在比道理會 這一次一定會提出來你們還是仍然要提出來一直拖延很多事情都沒有辦法確定下來"},{"start":3714.636,"end":3721.183,"text":"會爭取在這個會期一定會提出來反正希望能夠提出一個合理的版本我們謝謝吳秉瑞委員次長先請回接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言"},{"start":3739.929,"end":3747.557,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主席長 財政部阮市長好 請主席長 阮市長幾位長官委員好好 幾位長官好這個財化法是財政部在管還是主席總是在管"},{"start":3760.731,"end":3772.983,"text":"財務法是財政部在管嗎對 但是裡面有涉及到一些你們說昨天去找幾個地方政府的財政局長來討論結果給它感覺像過水 像糊弄一樣你說裡面營業額從20%變成8%"},{"start":3784.185,"end":3791.467,"text":"30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%都減少 減少什麼地方增加這個好 我跟委員報告這個有時候這樣講可能不太精準人家已經這樣寫媒體這樣寫 你說你要澄清是不是讓我簡單說明一下不要說明 你就告訴我什麼項目增加你跟我講什麼項目增加"},{"start":3809.17,"end":3829.7,"text":"我們現在是這樣你不要浪費我時間你告訴我什麼項目增加你現在營業額的占比也降低人口也降低什麼增加你就回到這個你不要跟我講其他的我們現在是把指標就弄得更公平合理你告訴我哪一個項目增加"},{"start":3830.8,"end":3838.242,"text":"增加昨天這些部分當然就是每一個縣市都有不同的意見因為這個涉及到還沒有回答問題我已經講了營業額從30%降到8%這個字打錯了那人口40.5%降到18%什麼項目增加你告訴我你不要讓我有時間"},{"start":3850.247,"end":3867.52,"text":"比如說什麼項目增加因為昨天就這一步沒有達成共識但是我覺得有幾點很重要的你告訴我哪幾個項目增加你告訴我這一部分因為老實講沒有說所謂哪一個項目增加"},{"start":3871.192,"end":3873.113,"text":"所以光是這個就代表什麼意思代表"},{"start":3888.632,"end":3907.28,"text":"地方政府只是被告知中央只有走程序過水而已欺負地方政府就是這樣我現在告訴你才華娃你們提出來我們來講我們就堅持因為你要提出來開始打個布水平最少五年"},{"start":3908.38,"end":3926.614,"text":"五年啦 最少五年我們不會同意的我們只有說同意修16.3那個離島的解決馬祖的問題其他我們不會接受基本上不接受先跟你講這樣喔因為你看到現在為止什麼增加你也不講"},{"start":3927.395,"end":3955.077,"text":"你也講不出來所以你現在只有心目中只有砍砍砍沒有增加不然你告訴我哪一項增加有沒有哪一項增加但是我跟委員報告昨天有很大的一個進展沒有進展啦有進展 有很大進展第一個我們就是說第一個要優先彌補這個財政收支差短這是第一個第二個我們搭配財源保障機制財源保障機制不是 你這個都叫我歐隆社徒那署長啊 我就被你很失望了真的 來 那個署長"},{"start":3956.978,"end":3979.048,"text":"陳署長你要不要講一下什麼地方項目增加有沒有項目增加的就像我們剛剛次長說的那個我們優先米平財政修正插船那這個部分就是佔了一大塊而且是真的就像剛剛委員您提的那個基礎的項目要先確立你都減少減少你沒有跟我講增加"},{"start":3980.706,"end":3983.327,"text":"減少變成營業額從30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%什麼地方增加嘛你告訴我什麼地方增加沒有啊來我們看下一頁好啦你既然沒有的話我就告訴你你提的版本我們絕對反對"},{"start":3998.854,"end":4016.917,"text":"你既然這樣講 我絕對反對反對到底 我們堅持現在版本除了16.3那個要改 很小的改以外其他我們全部反對就這樣 像你說 你不講我就反對不是 我跟委員報告不要講了 來 我們看一個 來現在來講 包括主計長那個統籌分配稅款因為你的主計長"},{"start":4026.019,"end":4035.033,"text":"你講的你最後一頁你寫的說藉此機制保障所有視線"},{"start":4038.505,"end":4057.527,"text":"縣市115年所獲得統總分數款一般補助款加計畫補助款三項加總比起114年只增不減這一句話是有問題的你已經講了九個縣市其實是低的不是增加的"},{"start":4058.067,"end":4061.87,"text":"所以現在來講 你要講 哇讚度 哇讚喔 說給了哇大方咧 給了4100多億可是你沒有講 你拿回來2600多億啊所以你實際上只有給1500多億而已啊你實際上只有給1500多億啊但是你到處哇啦哇啦講 喔 我給了4000多億沒有啊 你只給1500多億啊三個加起來 來 我就問你一個問題 簡單的問題"},{"start":4085.492,"end":4104.262,"text":"這個以後是不是都如此都是同仇加一般加計劃一定不會比114年少夠縣市喔 夠縣市是 目前的規劃是這樣子所以目前我們有九個縣市是低於114年度嘛你已經補起來了嘛"},{"start":4104.802,"end":4127.469,"text":"對 還沒 所以我們這裡沒有我們有一項均衡補助的一個我們就會把它添補起來但是我們現在就是說因為財化法裡面還有345億沒有分配那我們等到它分配之後它整個其實又是變動的那你345億有其他的委員說要拿去給什麼"},{"start":4128.929,"end":4144.1,"text":"所以必須要看最後的一個決定立法院後面將來他還決定這345億的走向確定之後我們才能夠決定說到底差短是多少你這句話"},{"start":4146.182,"end":4160.657,"text":"我感謝你這句話這樣你可不可以再承諾一遍說只要你當主席長的一天這三項永遠不會少於我們院長有同意這一個布就是紙價不少"},{"start":4162.479,"end":4185.031,"text":"這是行政院有承諾是這樣只要你當主計長的一天都是這樣子就三項只加不少所以等於是說各項補助都沒有減少三個加起來喔那如果這樣子的話我們提的案我可以提個案子就是計畫型補助款各縣市也只加不減"},{"start":4186.372,"end":4200.026,"text":"計劃是沒辦法 我坦白跟你說實際上執行起來是有困難的因為為什麼 他的政客 這每一個計劃他不見得都是 他執行任務完成之後他就會停止了 就不再做了那你說維持這個額度那這樣負責永遠橫幅"},{"start":4203.73,"end":4223.564,"text":"那个穷者永恒也很穷那譬如说你计划型有的是譬如说捷运它金额很大那你现在我维持它还是维持这个额度将来对一些少数没有捷运的建设是不公平嘛所以你就砍计划型就乱砍一通捷运就乱砍一通啊不是乱砍一通 而是把"},{"start":4224.284,"end":4243.886,"text":"原來縣市一般的事項回歸給縣市自己去辦理那這樣他有更大的一個自主的權利財政部啊 財政部來 財政部你知道最近有那個加勒菸啊上市以後一天就下市你知道吧"},{"start":4245.573,"end":4260.332,"text":"我常常報導裡面也看到了因為國建署那邊的問題這是你的事情喔研究管理法31條寫得很清楚你們管的主管單位就是財政部"},{"start":4261.654,"end":4276.864,"text":"煙酒管理經過包裝出售製造業或者進口業者要直接接觸的容器上標示尼古丁及焦油的含量這次下市就是因為沒有標尼古丁跟焦油的含量對罰則"},{"start":4279.625,"end":4308.3,"text":"改正以前不得繼續銷售第二個不符合的話 沒錄請問你有沒有沒錄根據法則有沒有沒錄了 沒收了沒錄 把那個加熱鹽沒收了聽不懂你聽不懂我們這個案子就是我這個案子就是你有沒有把他沒錄啦"},{"start":4309.878,"end":4332.487,"text":"有沒有把他沒收 沒錄聽不懂我們已經有他要求他下架回收啦因為他沒有標示那個離股定不是啦 你沒有標示你要沒錄違規的研究要沒錄就是你要沒收咧你有沒有把他收到財政部這裡面啊是 目前沒有沒有啊 那就回法啊因為他是第一次上次第一次就要啦 說是第一次 對不對"},{"start":4334.568,"end":4349.214,"text":"不符合本法法則五十條之二喔煙酒管理法五十條之二不符合本法標示規定的煙酒沒入違規的煙酒所以加熱源你要沒入啊"},{"start":4351.079,"end":4365.78,"text":"對 我跟委員報告就我們的這個菸酒管理法來講我們是分次來罰款如果最後它沒辦法達到我們要求的目標的話我們才會沒入"},{"start":4367.021,"end":4382.13,"text":"但是這個案子是針對因為它違反是陰害防治法我知道 這兩個法他們不管可是你們有法有工具可以用你要把它沒入我還跟你強調的你要改正以前不得繼續銷售然後50之二不符合的你要沒入"},{"start":4389.264,"end":4413.243,"text":"你们嫌贱的你们堵职啊你堵职啊 这个是那个末路是淹害防治法的规定我们的管理法是它有先期的规定它有先期先按处罚你也没有处罚我救你 我没有处罚我们这个会去处理处罚多少处罚多少现在因为是最近才发生的我们现在还在作业正常要罚多少"},{"start":4414.232,"end":4416.274,"text":"你告訴我答案我就下去了正常一般罰多少因為現在還沒有開始開罰但是我們現在的標準是100萬以上到500萬以下100萬以上500萬以下連續"},{"start":4432.826,"end":4458.611,"text":"連續處罰可以連續處罰然後如果他還是沒有達到我們要求的話我們要求他就是要沒入什麼時候要沒入這個就要看他有沒有前面他有沒有按照我們的規定繳納不要忘了大家都以為大家都以為有關於菸的部分是屬於衛福部不是的喔研究管理法明擺的事業目的主管機關是財政部"},{"start":4458.931,"end":4479.825,"text":"沒錯 但是我們財政部是負責菸酒的市場管理但是有關菸奶房子那一部分三四一票已經有了上面要標示尼古丁跟焦油的容含量如果沒有標你就要處罰啊然後最多可以沒入100萬到500萬的處罰開始處罰對 沒錯開始處罰囉我們會依法來處理盡快喔好 謝謝謝謝賴市長"},{"start":4489.552,"end":4491.894,"text":"接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢主席有請主席長跟阮次長請陳主席長還有阮次長 阮次長委員好主席長我們最近都在談財政收支方法的分配問題"},{"start":4516.401,"end":4537.629,"text":"大概都停留在過去的印象當中以為地方的財政非常的不好確實在整個歷史上整個地方的財政曾經發現過說地方補助款相對比較嚴苛負債比率也相對比較高如果從過往的短促的情形中101年的部分還短促到高達589億"},{"start":4539.85,"end":4548.954,"text":"可是隨著我們下放的財政資源越來越多的情況底下到2013年的時候已經變成是剩餘818億而這來與去之間加總起來總共有1407億的差別"},{"start":4556.258,"end":4571.209,"text":"那這裡頭還是可以看到相關的數字那之所以中央可以溢出那麼多主要是國稅成長國稅成長了191%可是相對地方稅來說25年來大概只有成長大約28%三成不到"},{"start":4572.33,"end":4590.504,"text":"那即便我們授權給他地方稅法通則的情況底下新的稅源也相對有限所以幾乎都是依賴中央在自有財源不足的情況底下那曾經還有一度你去看一看我們曾經還有一度不只這一個那個整個當初的財政這個赤字之外"},{"start":4591.164,"end":4618.551,"text":"還有包括當初為了解決地方的負債的問題因為以前常常這個發布所謂的地方財政警戒中對不對最近幾乎這個中都沒有在想了為什麼沒有在想原來把這個信用卡額度原來叫提高總數增加的這個2%之多呢有一點是下放給地方的 對不對下放給地方從8%變9.4%也就是一年可以增加800多億"},{"start":4619.791,"end":4641.052,"text":"原来以为这个信用卡增加之后以地方政府以前的那个习惯可能会刷爆但是事实上没有刷爆它不但没有刷爆而且这个负债还降低所有的这个比例那个债务中的比例越来越减少而且从原来的负债总比的5.56降到2.54"},{"start":4644.595,"end":4673.735,"text":"金额也降了大约是超过2000亿之多负债轻度的现市低于60%以下的从8个现市增加到20个现市目前比较严重的就只有苗栗跟宜兰而已对不对所以这种情况底下地方的财政不用从这个负债的角度来看或者从这个剩余的数字来看基本上已经大幅改善了对不对如果这种情况底下"},{"start":4674.956,"end":4695.192,"text":"部長 主席長主要是經濟好轉跟中央下放很多資源那如果說我們整個財政收支方法明年新版的開始之後地方已經這麼剩餘已經這麼多了將來如何使用那以及須不需要擬定計畫申請還是自由讓它發揮"},{"start":4696.753,"end":4725.389,"text":"所以這個部分因為我們本身除了統籌分配稅款4165下放之外所以它佔了114年幾乎達到9成然後它又指定那個一般性補助款要維持2501所以兩個加起來就將近15%下放但是事前並沒有下放那事前的部分有一部分其實以前是承接省政府原來11%的業務但是這個部分都必須要透過修法才有"},{"start":4725.949,"end":4748.476,"text":"市权没有下放的情况底下那以往政府实在是补助每年大概补助5000亿如果明年的新版的话你有没有算过本席稍微算了一下中央给地方的裁员会高达一兆1650亿之多让他自由挥霍那中央政府不是变成一个代收代付的机构吗"},{"start":4749.448,"end":4775.696,"text":"所以我们要把它转换一个形态就是说它用计划型来引导引导地方走向这方面用什么方式引导用计划型的一个计划来做引导所以说它这也不是纯粹的代收代付还会有一个计划型的引导是 所以一般性补助我们着重在一般性补助要计划型引导经常性的或者是比较普及性的然后基本建设的"},{"start":4775.796,"end":4783.848,"text":"那计划型补助也是有引导但是计划型比较大型的比较重大的那统筹分配款有办法吗"},{"start":4784.636,"end":4809.203,"text":"统筹分配款这个部分也是有所以现在新的财务法里面他有对基本支出他有图向去列出来然后第二个他把他的财政收支差短把它列在统筹分配税里面然后直接来解决而不是透过一般性补助来做结束是 我是说你如果一个计划性的引导"},{"start":4810.223,"end":4836.937,"text":"不至於錢亂花否則的話依照現在事權的一個限制人員編制沒有增加他到時候就是變成發紅包比賽所以我是覺得組委長我建議你事先要有一個計畫性引導事後我們應該要有一個類似地方財政警戒中的概念警戒中的概念不是以前的負債多少把它呈現出來而是有哪些縣市"},{"start":4839.018,"end":4865.18,"text":"過度自由發揮以至於有違反財政治理之餘主計總署跟審計部應該有事後的一個規範這個有效所以這個部分跟委員報告新的財務法裡面就針對這個有著所在設計所以它有一個一般性的一個基本財政支出的項目然後有一個收入之後它兩個如果有財政支出的差短透過統總分配稅來彌補"},{"start":4867.101,"end":4894.864,"text":"對 主席長我現在要跟您說的是說把地方過去的警戒中的概念不是只有數字而已而接下來它是怎麼使用做一個調整做必要的做事後一個公佈為什麼 為什麼因為地方政府都要連任你如果亂花錢亂花紅包只為了選票要接受社會的監督你拿了這麼多錢拿了一兆一千多億你同不同意本席把這個事後的一個這個"},{"start":4897.38,"end":4917.201,"text":"审计的概念把它公布弄一个方式来做一个规范事前计划引导嘛那如果它不照你计划呢对不对 对不对可不可以我们现在国防安委已经就针对各县市的和中央的一个事前在整个重新再做检讨那是另外啦"},{"start":4918.002,"end":4931.202,"text":"然后检讨之后他会变成是说以考核或督导的方式来让他进行我意思说考核跟督导之后不够不要把他评审内部作业必要的时候公开可不可以可以吧"},{"start":4932.27,"end":4946.08,"text":"应该要公开应该要公开另外一个部分你看你整个这个补助款增加了这个结构上面挤压到什么挤压到计划型补助你明年的计划型补助剩下308亿"},{"start":4948.547,"end":4975.282,"text":"對不對 本來2954現在當到308少了2646那像這種情況底下所有今天最近財政部昨天有討論了大概從一個橫向的配置的部分大家都放在平衡的部分已經剩下八個指標 對不對但是現階段所有的這個狀況已經減少那你要怎麼調劑營需你是不是要舉債 明年"},{"start":4978.265,"end":4989.573,"text":"已经举债4000亿了我们目前举债是4000年同特别预算1008亿的话是4000亿总预算是3000亿你举债也是举现在特别预算有计划型的补助就剩下308亿吗"},{"start":4991.793,"end":5011.852,"text":"对 现在是我们有一个财政均衡的一个项目我们对于九个县市它现在低于114年度我们会给予补足 只增不减你现在来了 问题来了现在你308年你很难调节银靴这是第一个问题第二个你刚刚一直讲市权的部分"},{"start":5012.532,"end":5025.3,"text":"事权的部分你现在说国务发会有在做处理那有要提出类似像地方制度法其他相关的法来重新规划事权的一个分工吗有没有这个部分有没有修法的打算"},{"start":5025.785,"end":5046.872,"text":"这个部分其实我一般性补助包括计划性补助都是属于地方印办的事项只是我中央补助而已所以这个部分有一些项目如果回归给地方来办理然后由他的统筹分配税款来资印这个部分就回归真正回归地方自治的一个方向"},{"start":5047.432,"end":5069.726,"text":"对 回归如果能够回归地方制度是回归啦但是以到目前为止事权能需要调整嘛你不是一直强调吗那事权调整有没有牵扯到修法的部分那有牵扯到修法有没有打算要修法有没有打算要修法像我们财法法要年底要提出来你事权的一个重新划分也要面对啊没有错 这个部分就是"},{"start":5071.167,"end":5097.013,"text":"我们事权的一个修法的部分这个涉及到比如说有一些作用法比如说内政部的还有一些卫福部的一些相关的劳健保这些等等那这些谁在统筹是国化会在统筹国化会在统筹那统筹的情况底下有没有一个时间点钱都已经要发下去了有 他会搭配他整个近日我们一直都很今年年底可以提出修法吗这个部还是必须要尊重国化会他的"},{"start":5097.193,"end":5113.74,"text":"你要督促在主机的部分你要去思考这个问题财政部都已经要提出修法了这个部分是副院长亲自在督导所以这个部分应该要同步进行副院长很忙又要讨论这个关税的谈判副院长本身自己在亲自督导"},{"start":5113.92,"end":5141.068,"text":"对 所以说这个应该要有时间点要match对不对 要同步应该 应该年底提出来而更何况我还要问一下阮次主席长稍微休息一下阮次你们昨天提了一个横向那最深水区的部分权重的部分还没处理那是不是代表还要再开一次会还是权重的部分就中央自行决定因为那一部分的确各地方政府因为涉及到它分配的金额的大小所以那一部分"},{"start":5141.288,"end":5169.663,"text":"很难达到共识很难达到共识那怎么办但是我们会尽量用最公平合理的方式就是由中央自行判断年底以前完成这是一个方式会设计一个方式然后年底以前送法案过来但是我们也不放弃沟通的机会不放 同时沟通同时拟定一个方式出来权重你自己要拿出一个版本中央还是要负责谈不拢你就是要中央自己做决定不然你年底的版本怎么出来这是第一第二的部分你要面对一个国民党的版本现在已经近负二度了"},{"start":5171.224,"end":5198.656,"text":"你等到年底的时候他熊熊给你送去再表决一次那你来得及吗你有算过吗你有去沟通吗你有去沟通吗刚才委员也指教就是说我们就是有关于适选的盘对 我现在给你来盘修法如果修法它又如法炮制的时候你应该去跟国民党等等沟通一下因为毕竟他们现在多数嘛是不是能够有"},{"start":5199.156,"end":5220.732,"text":"大家共同討論他現在進了五金服務樂隊連委員會都沒有辦法討論但是我們現在前提就要先有一個修法案對 你現在一個版本但是你就今天要講說請他stand by一下不要這麼急那以前我們有提出法案讓人走那現在我們已經提出法案了可是他又不等你會不會造成這種結果有沒有可能 你有沒有評估過"},{"start":5222.874,"end":5241.287,"text":"这是一个真实现实对 这个是没有错但是在沟通之前我们总是有自己的版本出来这样才能够有一个聚焦才能够沟通不好意思 主席你再给我一分钟就好我最后再问一下主记长你这个一定要去沟通 阮次"},{"start":5242.068,"end":5263.239,"text":"你要去沟通好不好另外一个部分那个现阶段整个这一个计划型补助再加上所谓的这个统筹分配款一增一减或一减一增的情况底下有些县市在统筹分配款喝到汤但是在计划型补助的时候少了肉总共有几个县市有九个县市"},{"start":5265.214,"end":5292.348,"text":"主席长 你看剩下这九个县市当中你所剩不多308亿的这一个计划性补助是不是应该把这几个县市为优先是 我们这个部分会列为优先所以我们就是说跟114年度比较指正不减所以它一定是维持住114年度的一个额度所以这个部分的缺少的一个部分我们会用那个均衡补助的部分来给予谜评"},{"start":5292.808,"end":5321.7,"text":"如果尽量还是要调剂营需的功能的情况底下308还是非常有限你有没有可能再举借有没有可能再举债应该不用这个部分我们大概是有把它算一下它的一个差短的数以这边为优先以九个县市为优先六都当中唯一受害的就是台南麻烦你注意一下谢谢 谢谢主席长谢谢阮次 谢谢主席好 谢谢郭国文委员"},{"start":5323.604,"end":5325.787,"text":"接下來我們請賴會員委員質詢主席有請主計總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是"},{"start":5345.154,"end":5369.338,"text":"主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議是在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法"},{"start":5374.178,"end":5389.059,"text":"要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對 財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間"},{"start":5391.227,"end":5415.106,"text":"如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然 行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議"},{"start":5416.715,"end":5432.416,"text":"基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了"},{"start":5433.101,"end":5454.461,"text":"對 我們積極在研擬 積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府再進一步溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來"},{"start":5454.881,"end":5482.193,"text":"可長可久好 次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題"},{"start":5483.093,"end":5504.808,"text":"我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方但是我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力"},{"start":5505.228,"end":5520.365,"text":"朝著前盤的修正的方向市長謝謝接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次"},{"start":5522.444,"end":5541.116,"text":"會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了"},{"start":5552.324,"end":5578.458,"text":"那中央跟地方政府的整体的税收的分配那这个你刚才也有回答了另外一个委员在早期的话我们是大概是75那个中央是75地方是25那现在如果这个像现在新的财务法跟那个一般性的那个补助办法的话那我们回到60比40就像你们昨天跟地方政府的一个沟通"},{"start":5579.778,"end":5605.716,"text":"我看了那个资料是讲到了就是说不管是桃园不管是台北是新北都非常的乐意因为他们分到了很多的钱可是英宁跟台东都不愿意为什么他们分配少了分配少了主席总长你来自于台南我想用台南的一个经验告诉你是就是说中央的财政会不会失衡那地方就是说"},{"start":5607.077,"end":5620.52,"text":"政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單地用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這一次"},{"start":5621.684,"end":5640.382,"text":"他多拿了100 他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老榮津貼 他的榮寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校"},{"start":5641.483,"end":5656.585,"text":"巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話它在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢"},{"start":5658.171,"end":5672.664,"text":"我跟委員報告 八所國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會 今年不會減對 今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序循序這個部分"},{"start":5673.525,"end":5687.88,"text":"但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講九個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平"},{"start":5689.522,"end":5711.828,"text":"只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身應該要做的項目就應該要自己去做去確定說你到底要辦理什麼項目所以就是說我會補到114年額度相同的一個計劃"},{"start":5712.128,"end":5731.385,"text":"到114年沒有問題可是到115年的話會不會產生問題你如何去115年會照114年度的額度去補譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子"},{"start":5733.968,"end":5748.446,"text":"就会把它补齐是的所以到目前为止到115还能就是有一个比较正常的一个那个就是分配的方式是所以维持三项它只增不减"},{"start":5749.207,"end":5764.706,"text":"只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于"},{"start":5765.166,"end":5784.866,"text":"中央必須引導譬如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關經費列在一般性補助裡面"},{"start":5785.286,"end":5800.158,"text":"那我可不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計劃型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款"},{"start":5800.418,"end":5815.197,"text":"他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊"},{"start":5816.058,"end":5837.22,"text":"但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會"},{"start":5838.061,"end":5867.381,"text":"沒有跟委員報告你說項目調整那是舊的嗎對新的財劃法已經在規劃所以這個財劃法裡面他就會把一般性的一個基本支出規劃在財劃法裡面包括收入支出然後整個之後他如果有差短他就會透過財劃法裡面統籌分配稅來做彌補那彌補之後其他所增加的財源就是作為他本身本身其他的一個項目的一個"},{"start":5868.101,"end":5893.647,"text":"一個使用那所以這部分呢在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他"},{"start":5896.933,"end":5916.442,"text":"考慮給他成長的一個機會那這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看"},{"start":5920.273,"end":5946.482,"text":"所以如果你不用審計的一個態度在事後去公開他在整體的一個施政他的成績的話那這個會變成我們整個社會就非常的亂所以你該補貼的你沒有補貼那窮的就像你剛講的窮的更窮有錢的更有錢那以後大家都不住在南部了大家都往北部移那事實上是不可能"},{"start":5948.015,"end":5963.184,"text":"那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是 我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好"},{"start":5965.325,"end":5981.741,"text":"跟大家加油 因為我想這個財化法這個統戰火候分配 把我們大家真的是搞得重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導得更好謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝賴慧媛委員好 接下來請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":5998.769,"end":6003.092,"text":"我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好 請主席長跟阮政次委員好 主席長好《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從"},{"start":6023.068,"end":6046.038,"text":"上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡"},{"start":6046.758,"end":6072.597,"text":"你公布了這幾個在今年的8月29公布了新的一個補助辦法這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多"},{"start":6073.457,"end":6095.158,"text":"模糊想像的空間我爭取這項到底會不會有比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的集聚很清楚財政集聚可以用在教文在在攝服那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都"},{"start":6095.979,"end":6125.292,"text":"应该不至于滥用了那原则上就是因为你这一次写的新的补助办法让外界批评担心无论蓝绿各县市你看刚刚赖会员也在担心说那这个我们会不会有无论是外界会认为说未来有可能会变成是论功行赏或者笼络某些县市或者甚至是党同伐异的一个问题点在这个也就是各县市看到新的补助办法"},{"start":6125.812,"end":6142.802,"text":"難免因為你寫得不夠清楚會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的"},{"start":6144.264,"end":6160.858,"text":"編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等"},{"start":6162.819,"end":6178.778,"text":"这个就是以台北市为例在新的补助办法之后会受到冲击的部分也就是说从民众各县市可能会有这样的问题在交通的权益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等现在外界都会认为说"},{"start":6179.679,"end":6197.825,"text":"因为一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人质各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订的金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿"},{"start":6200.406,"end":6213.354,"text":"減幅達到將近38.88%所以包括國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響"},{"start":6217.696,"end":6243.197,"text":"那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长正是我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时人认识有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后"},{"start":6244.439,"end":6251.296,"text":"你們過去只開兩次會在今年二月之前開過兩次會二月之後你們就提出復議了"},{"start":6253.87,"end":6279.815,"text":"這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號"},{"start":6281.465,"end":6288.604,"text":"主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長"},{"start":6291.478,"end":6315.139,"text":"我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見妳幾天要叫他們收回意見妳給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問妳 妳8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道妳真的一般新的補助妳有沒有跟地方溝通過"},{"start":6316.4,"end":6338.27,"text":"我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见"},{"start":6339.315,"end":6364.717,"text":"然後就結束了那8月29日就是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條"},{"start":6368.112,"end":6386.852,"text":"最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通"},{"start":6388.396,"end":6391.518,"text":"有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議"},{"start":6406.223,"end":6426.209,"text":"這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎"},{"start":6436.011,"end":6441.256,"text":"我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開三天之後就收了"},{"start":6444.994,"end":6472.037,"text":"所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡"},{"start":6473.912,"end":6498.423,"text":"主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你跟委員說米妮下來我要請問你"},{"start":6501.184,"end":6525.035,"text":"因為你現在的辦法已經公告了你現在財務法修正案我們現在已經十月下旬了那當然我們希望12月31號之前新的版本會送進來立法院那包括事權當然事權我覺得需要交代清楚你有辦法在12月31號之前會一併包括把事權的部分地質法的修法一併會送進來嗎這個是誰要回應我"},{"start":6530.267,"end":6542.634,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編"},{"start":6549.597,"end":6567.354,"text":"因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的"},{"start":6569.096,"end":6592.375,"text":"好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過"},{"start":6594.468,"end":6613.86,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們就我們這個才化法這一部分我們就是從上一次通過以後修法通過以後我們開了四次會徵詢這個地方政府的意見那昨天又開了一次會那昨天其實有進一步這麼晚才開 再開一次會"},{"start":6615.621,"end":6637.151,"text":"我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們"},{"start":6638.852,"end":6658.921,"text":"在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法"},{"start":6662.102,"end":6682.163,"text":"地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少"},{"start":6682.563,"end":6700.142,"text":"他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得行政院背後又在做政策"},{"start":6701.103,"end":6725.868,"text":"我們有三點說明第一個就是說我們在九十月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一十四年只增不減所以他一百一十四年度所有的計劃"},{"start":6727.754,"end":6733.525,"text":"政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條"},{"start":6736.849,"end":6759.424,"text":"幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制一向跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝李燕學委員"},{"start":6763.769,"end":6769.372,"text":"接下來我們請李坤誒那個李坤誠先來請李坤誠委員來 謝謝謝謝主席我們請陳主席長好 請主席長然後阮次長然後國庫署的陳署長好 陳署長委員好"},{"start":6789.216,"end":6810.128,"text":"主席張浩我先問一下次長好了因為這個是昨天才開會昨天我們是第四次邀集地方政府會商統籌稅款的分配方式我剛剛有聽次長說是有共識的地方那當然一定也有歧異的地方歧異的地方在哪裡"},{"start":6811.28,"end":6831.781,"text":"最主要就是有關那個就是指標的那個權重的問題指標權重因為權重會直接涉及到他分配的金額比如說台北市跟這個比如像這個南部的縣市或者是嘉義縣等等所以指標權重就是變成說六度跟非六度之間"},{"start":6833.021,"end":6847.887,"text":"對 大家會要求會不一樣對 就不一樣所以那一部分是大家有比較多的意見其他的大部分都已經大家大部分都能夠認同但是這個就滿大的意見了因為如果說我們要畫我們有這個新版裁判法出來的話這個其實就是"},{"start":6848.627,"end":6869.547,"text":"要尋求共識裡面這個最大的差異點在這邊也可能是最後擺不平的地方那請教一下次長那在這個修財化法我剛有聽希望說在11月底之前能夠售出來我們爭取我們現在如果要做出來是其實我覺得是溝通的問題如果是溝通那我們還會再找地方政府再來一次開會嗎還是就是"},{"start":6871.188,"end":6897.714,"text":"再開到昨天就差不多了我們是這樣子就是說如果可以的話當然我們不放棄跟地方政府再進一步溝通但是如果是還是同樣的溝通的結果還是一樣的話可能我們就是會按照我們就是認為最合理最公平的方式那麼做一個決定那當然財政部認為說昨天有一些有共識的地方不過我看今天媒體有寫說這個"},{"start":6899.594,"end":6925.351,"text":"行政院版的財劃法 財政部挨自說自話這個我覺得應該意思就是說沒有去做好溝通然後在溝通的過程當中當然我們自己一定會有版本我們拿著我們版本來做溝通不過就像次長所講的就是說可能六都跟非六都大家對於這個指標會有不同的意見跟看法"},{"start":6926.151,"end":6940.949,"text":"那我再請教一下這個次長下一張我們來看一下修法前後水平分配指標的對照那比如說像這個營利事業所得稅修法前是50%現在降到30%我現在講說就是今年"},{"start":6942.15,"end":6967.035,"text":"去年底通過這個才化法就是變成30%然後人口的權重增加到45%增加很多那當然會造成一些問題比如說就會變成說人口比較多的或是說營利事業所的稅稅收比較多的等等可能會造成越富的越富 越窮的越窮"},{"start":6968.895,"end":6988.426,"text":"這是去年修法的一些問題我們再看下一張這個就是剛剛的那一張30%是營利事業所得稅等等加起來100%我想請教一下次長在討論的過程當中這就是水平分配了水平分配的行政院的版本"},{"start":6990.017,"end":7015.276,"text":"在這個指標裡面有做什麼樣的一些調整一定是有多有少的啦因為我剛剛聽有委員講說你增加在哪裡那一個餅就這樣子嘛一定有的有少 一定有的有增加嘛那少在哪裡 增加在哪裡我們現在是這樣因為現行的就是才通過的這個版本裡面委員很清楚就是說它的指標過度集中在人口跟營利稅所的額嘛佔了75%嘛"},{"start":7016.957,"end":7042.925,"text":"就是造成城鄉之間的差距對 我剛才那個修法後的那個所以我們就是把指標那一部分做了比較通盤的一個檢討比如說像財政努力我們就是把它分成就是盈利稅所得額還有財產稅的努力還有非稅收入三項指標那另外一個大家比較關切的你說財政努力現在佔幾%"},{"start":7045.066,"end":7067.197,"text":"我們看一下那個圓餅圖好了另外基本關切比較多的就是基本建設需求基本建設需求那部分我們就分成五大項就是一個土地面積還有人口數還有工業人口我們把工業人口拉進去農林漁牧人口的結構還有就是農林漁牧的產值這五項的指標"},{"start":7072.579,"end":7091.802,"text":"那它比重大概是占多少現在土地面積土地面積是占多少土地面積的話占的是百分之三十占三十趴那人口指標你說你有在分你有分任一個工業人口 農林營運人口是不是對 就是人口數那它的比重呢比重的話人口數是占百分之三十"},{"start":7092.563,"end":7120.809,"text":"那工業人口是占20%那農林榆木人口是占10%然後農林榆木產值是10%也就是說讓我們這是基本建設這方面就對了對那我們希望就是說城鄉之間能夠更加的平衡而且這個比如說像土地面積像有些地方土地面積它的比如說它的種類不一樣比如說像林業用地林業用地我們那我知道那現在就是說那盈利事業所的稅現在從30%降到20%"},{"start":7123.61,"end":7127.632,"text":"對 是不是 是然後那個財稅的成長率財產稅的努力現在佔多少"},{"start":7132.069,"end":7156.431,"text":"財政努力這個是所謂占多少是哪一部分的占多少就是在我剛才這個圓餅圖裡面就是財產稅的努力那一部分就是總權重是占財政努力的占比是全部加起來財產稅努力是占起來是一個是15%就是激增努力度"},{"start":7157.592,"end":7186.508,"text":"那另外一個財產稅成長率的未續評分法這個占50%所以基本上我們是希望就是說能夠真正做到讓地方政府能夠努力去開拓他的財源好 結論你再給我一下那我就請教次長如果按照你們去跟地方政府溝通的這一個版本來講的話那六度跟非六度會呈現什麼樣的跟過去財務法不一樣的地方"},{"start":7187.376,"end":7211.552,"text":"當然這樣子的話 六都是會稍微有一點稍微收斂減少幅度大概多大幅度可能我這個可能還在看你再整理一下但是基本上那個方向就是說比較發達的這些那部分會稍微往下降"},{"start":7211.772,"end":7232.234,"text":"六度會往下降就對了所以往下降不一定是六度所以比較工商發達或者人口比如說像還有像哪一些稍微往下降但是屬於比較這個原來比較偏鄉的那一部分會因為它收支差短會比較大所以慢慢的它就會拉上來我們希望做到做到就是能夠公平合理"},{"start":7232.714,"end":7251.099,"text":"因為財化法上基本的原則就是就是條基因素 這個我知道這個原則我知道那我例子是說大家在爭執的在炒裂放的例子是說那我本來可能拿得比較多現在變拿得比較少了所以這個問題就在這裡但是也有本來拿得比較少變拿得比較多了有吧"},{"start":7252.379,"end":7275.3,"text":"有本來拿得比較少 現在變得拿得比較多的有吧 不可能全部大家都減少吧因為如果大家都減少的話那大家就說那中央錢又拿走了 這樣也不合理不會 所以一定有的有減少那一定也有增加對不對那增加的多不多增加的限制多不多"},{"start":7276.772,"end":7304.244,"text":"增加的啦增加的怎麼樣現世多不多現在還沒有因為還整個那個最後的那個權重還沒有確定你不能秀出來這個法就是說讓這一個原本這個增加的減少那他們一定會有怨言但是原本減少的如果增加了那他們也會覺得說那這樣子對他們有利我覺得你就是要去做一個平衡那你如果全部都減少的話那當然這個法一定過不了的"},{"start":7304.924,"end":7329.042,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我們還有一個財源保障機制也就是剛才我們主席長一直講的只增不減每一個縣市雖然是說我們現在因為現在是分別太不平均我們雖然有些縣市把它降下來但是還是比過去還是增不減最後一定會增加的因為我們統籌分配款最後現在是八千多億了對不對增加快一倍所以一定會增加的"},{"start":7330.583,"end":7353.309,"text":"還是會增加所以我們還是保障只生不檢而且我們還有一個財源保障機制就不低於那個基準的原來分配的財源有一個保障的機制我這個跟次長講就是說你如果要送這個財務法出來你要去說服說服就是說這個原本如果比較富裕的"},{"start":7354.109,"end":7370.634,"text":"他們所減少的 希望說能夠均衡其他拿了比較少的縣市所以他們要增加如果他們也沒有增加的話那當然也都不會通過的我請教一下主席長因為計算公式分母計算公式錯了現在有345億沒辦法分配這345億沒辦法分配的話那現在怎麼解決"},{"start":7381.943,"end":7390.705,"text":"因为这个是行政院没办法说没办法解决 所谓修法那这345亿可以做其他的用途吗"},{"start":7392.459,"end":7416.921,"text":"這個部分要看修好的一個結果就是說它只能用在這個統籌分配款還是可以用在其他的用途裡面因為現在財政部這個要財政部來回答這個部分就是財政部表示這個部分它也沒辦法使用所以它只能留著它也沒辦法擅自分配是這樣所以除非新的法律有說這個部分是要怎麼分配這樣子"},{"start":7417.341,"end":7422.025,"text":"那我們今天可不可以提出一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":7453.752,"end":7464.617,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府局長 市長 官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請主席長跟財政部阮次長請主席長還有我們阮次長委員好主席長好 次長好有沒有覺得今天冷清清的是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨 您覺得呢還是因為今天我們討論的是財化法"},{"start":7480.319,"end":7505.98,"text":"主席你覺得呢 如果今天我們討論一萬元怎麼領 跟誰領 怎麼花 政府還要補貼你覺得會不會情況不一樣好像不好答 其實是這樣子就像公司 員工只要有拿到薪水 他其實他不會問他不會去關心說公司的財務 會計怎麼調度他只關心我薪水是按時發 是不是這樣子"},{"start":7507.808,"end":7535.927,"text":"所以市長昨天財政部是不是召開各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法熱不熱烈非常熱烈非常熱烈都是管財務的人都是財政系統但是一般不是財政系統不曉得你們在搞什麼來我先問一下地方補助款不低於去年還創新高這新聞財政部去年今年昨天看了那個會是不是昨天的新聞"},{"start":7536.889,"end":7542.609,"text":"新聞照片你們要提行政院版的裁判法修法對不對是 那這邊還提到說"},{"start":7544.42,"end":7568.309,"text":"保障統籌分配稅款跟一般應付款不低於今年的規模就是7177億但是要怎麼樣滿足基準的財政收支短差納入財政的努力機制就是貢獻機制還要考量到基本建設需求到時分配的方法會調整回來地方政府多表認同調整回來是他們的錢會變多還變少"},{"start":7570.271,"end":7597.193,"text":"有些多 當然有些會有點少多的當然是認同 少的也認同因為指標一動以後一定是因為那個是施工室來 我們來跟兩位探討一下這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分兩位主席長跟次長是不是同意先討論錢怎麼分配之前先討論事權怎麼分 對不對同意嘛 同意就點頭或大聲說大聲說我比較聽得到 是好 我們來看"},{"start":7598.113,"end":7620.747,"text":"憲法第107到110第107說哪些是中央做的對不對108 109哪些是談到是省可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做對不對然後110是談什麼縣市級的要做是這些是不是這樣子是好 請要一下農林農林這個是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行"},{"start":7622.314,"end":7644.271,"text":"剛剛傳出台中疑似發現非洲豬瘟農業部緊急召開記者會但是媒體有在報導說因為今年這個農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞那請問一下像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的"},{"start":7646.54,"end":7666.033,"text":"因為中央和地方都有啦都有那中央的預算被砍了那地方那些出現漏洞那誰要負責很難講對不對不好講嘛現在還沒有調查清楚往下看來我們看看那未來如果我們現在的社福支出我們有什麼"},{"start":7667.335,"end":7695.803,"text":"有福利對不對我們這裡看到的你這裡寫我們福利照顧跟社會安全340億對不對這你在報告裡面寫的這是關於115年度一般性補助款2500億當中福利照顧跟社會安全佔了340億照顧協助弱勢保留的社會福利經費406億我請教一下這可能要請教主席長哪些是這些福利照顧社會"},{"start":7696.803,"end":7717.536,"text":"安全是中央還是地方法有明文嗎有 這些都是屬於地方的只是都是由中央在補助等等 中央政府支出的勞保補助 健保補助是法有明文是中央出對不對對 這個部分還必須透過修法因為以前這個部分是由政府在支出"},{"start":7718.276,"end":7745.461,"text":"過去是政府支出但是本來屬於地方的權責因為政府的財政中央較好所以在條文上就有指明是中央出的中央要出這個原來是省政府在出本來是省政府出的後來交給中央政府出必須要有條文明定的才是中央出如果沒有明定的那是要還是中央出嗎"},{"start":7746.897,"end":7775.66,"text":"所以等於是說有條文明定是有勞保健保這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉但是現在如果沒有那個主席長你太急了啦我是說沒有修法你當然想把這個勞保跟健保交給地方嘛但是縱使如此該地方出的如果條文有定是中央出中央還是會出除非修法但是如果法沒有明定的是不是就應該地方出我要問你這一句啦"},{"start":7776.786,"end":7799.547,"text":"沒有法律明確的是不是該地方的就地方出地方制度法也有明確的規定所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫性補助都是地方應該要出的所以從建法的法理推論該地方執行的業務除非像勞保跟健保有法有明文規定我們中央才出法沒有明文的都應該地方出是不是這樣子"},{"start":7800.63,"end":7824.35,"text":"你太急了 你一直想說連勞保健保的你都覺得應該是地方出除非修法當然修法就照法律沒有修法的我們沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理好 那我們再問一下來 現在健保保費法有明定政府負擔的都是由中央政府出對不對民眾致富的地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了 有沒有"},{"start":7825.325,"end":7840.698,"text":"有嘛有地方政府說嘛70歲的長者有地方政府民眾的致富而地方政府扛起來了嘛那一天我才問你嘛那如果地方政府他連民眾致富的都有能力致富那為什麼政府致富的要中央來付呢"},{"start":7841.653,"end":7870.768,"text":"是不是這個意思所以是不是你未來覺得說應該是中央跟地方共同討論原定政府負擔的怎麼樣大家負擔去拆分 是不是這樣子所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來現在連地方政府連民眾自負額都有辦法幫忙付那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出是這樣嗎 好 往下看好 那麼剛剛我們看到了來 退伏經費也是如此"},{"start":7871.548,"end":7898.957,"text":"現在退伍經費一個是退伍基金嘛中央政府有沒有負擔有有沒有有負擔嘛那請問中央的公教人員是中央出對不對那請問地方公教人員的是誰出依規定應該地方政府來出依規定出實況是誰出因為他增加實況是誰代出他增加的部分是中央政府在出是嘛所以你看這個"},{"start":7901.144,"end":7913.347,"text":"零用錢都發下去了帳單還是老爸老媽付子女都說零用錢太少了我沒辦法生活多給零用錢可是他外面的開銷的帳單還是老爸老媽付是不是這樣子"},{"start":7914.278,"end":7941.179,"text":"那在這種情況之下我們要怎麼調所以目前我們連公教的年金除了退伏基金之外是中央政府幫忙出而且中央政府還出到了地方的公教人員那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚說明白按照這個財力跟他們的負擔去調整也是好往下看來好剛剛講到那個李昆城委員提到了"},{"start":7942.523,"end":7965.965,"text":"去年修了財化法 今年一算糟糕了 有345億分配不出去其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的那請問這些錢345億 是不是本來要用在地方是本來要用在地方的錢 要給地方的那是不是用在地方的身上誰來打"},{"start":7967.288,"end":7995.951,"text":"跟委員報告這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢這是因為公視分配不出去的本來要分配給他但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上是不是這樣因為他這個是本來是地方的錢所以用在地方的人民身上不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全主席長包括所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全你是支持的吧 主席長"},{"start":7999.568,"end":8028.944,"text":"你怎麼沒有回答呢這是要給地方的錢地方本來就要做什麼社會福利照顧跟社會安全如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全符不符合這筆錢它的性質是不是對嘛 符合它的性質嘛好 那往下看所以說我們來看一下假如說國民老年 老人年金對不對這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全嘛是不是應該在我們"},{"start":8029.788,"end":8056.406,"text":"憲法裡面中央跟地方分權這是地方政府的權責嘛 治權嘛 對不對所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分有沒有符合它的原理主席長這屬於地方應該負擔的話地方應該負擔的如果這筆錢用在老人年金國民的國民年金有人主張說讓他月領八千如果扣除牌幅 扣除最低的居住限制不足的補到八千"},{"start":8057.403,"end":8085.728,"text":"主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢可不可以去算大概多少大概900億900億全年要900億對不對地方他要去付這900億好往下看那如果說產後照顧津貼有什麼好處可以坐月子兩老四老就可以省事或者說家人照顧可以減輕負擔像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧"},{"start":8087.222,"end":8115.562,"text":"是 那如果有人要發這筆錢是不是也要用這一筆地方給地方的錢按照中央和地方一個分權是地方的人民就有地方好 那最後一個因為時間的關係勞退勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全如果我們對勞工勞退自體我們政府給一趴的獎勵你覺得這筆錢是不是也是地方來支應是合理的"},{"start":8117.847,"end":8138.207,"text":"是不是合理的最後我們看一下所以說現在財政收支劃分法地方政府的負擔能力我們要先把市權先分出來再去討論中央跟地方應分配的如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款是不是一些屬於地方做的事情地方政府要全額負擔你知不支持這樣的一個概念"},{"start":8139.77,"end":8157.478,"text":"好 最後我們的結論就是這樣請主席總署針對地方政府法定應辦理事項統計現在統計出現在個別目前是中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額原來是地方做的結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔把這個統計出來可以嗎"},{"start":8159.876,"end":8181.378,"text":"是國化會目前在進行所以這個市權的部分是國化會在負責不是 我不是說市權我是說現在去統計啦妳是負責統計就好了嘛但是也必須要國化會去做分配之後我才能夠協助上面要有人告訴妳哪些是中央還是地方妳才能去做統計那妳沒關係妳把上面的誰做的先不管妳先統計出來好不好"},{"start":8182.319,"end":8202.292,"text":"這些政事別哪些是當中多少中央出多少地方出你算出來我們來看看檢討上面的事權是歸誰好不好這樣懂了嗎可以喔最後請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府以貨配的新增額度估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力可以嗎"},{"start":8203.292,"end":8223.875,"text":"這樣了解 夠清楚我們當然會配合委員的要求來做報告但是有一點我是不是可以補充說明一下因為這個345億畢竟還是地方的財源所以將來假定它的分配公司修正之後分配給地方以後地方政府是可以統收統支的"},{"start":8224.455,"end":8245.536,"text":"當然但是法是立法院定的如果立法院通過立法要求把這345億現在分配不出去的直接用在人民的身上而且是屬於地方政府的福利照顧和社會安全支出那也是立法院的事情對不對就跟著立法院通過的法做就對了是不是這樣所以如果有這樣的法律規定那當然就可以了好 謝謝"},{"start":8246.437,"end":8256.288,"text":"好 我們謝謝鍾嘉碧委員接下來我們請林世民召委那在林世民召委這個執行完結束之後我們休息五分鐘好 謝謝主席現在請主席長我們請主席長"},{"start":8272.735,"end":8300.853,"text":"主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項"},{"start":8302.374,"end":8324.663,"text":"剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長"},{"start":8325.763,"end":8351.306,"text":"你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席長你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎"},{"start":8352.02,"end":8381.42,"text":"是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照"},{"start":8382.541,"end":8403.6,"text":"財力的集聚分配來做分配所以可能就是說整個分配的一個比例做調整但是計畫的項目評比的基準這個部分大概都是沿用以往除非就是說有一些部分是沒有補助了不然其他大概都是跟以往的是一樣都差不多都差不多也沒有很大的一個"},{"start":8404.801,"end":8427.712,"text":"所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要天列表格譬如說0到6歲的部分"},{"start":8428.792,"end":8447.119,"text":"就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請了其實署長因為就是說現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮"},{"start":8454.642,"end":8478.57,"text":"就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目"},{"start":8480.211,"end":8497.328,"text":"因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚"},{"start":8497.888,"end":8515.071,"text":"今天你大概有講出幾個基本的一個狀況所以我想這個還是請這個未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的一個修法"},{"start":8515.672,"end":8537.132,"text":"我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白是如果搭配你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正"},{"start":8537.752,"end":8560.898,"text":"這個是我給你的一個建議啦這個以後要改進啦 好不好是 當然我們還有一個很非常重要的一個問題就是說你這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的一個修正導致我們地方政府他自籌財源的時候呢他的比例變成三級跳"},{"start":8561.926,"end":8578.344,"text":"那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個"},{"start":8579.705,"end":8593.164,"text":"依照修正后的这个财政收支化分法所分配到的统轴分配税款根本还没拿到啊你现在就把它加进来造成他的财政机制变成三级跳这样公平合理吗"},{"start":8595.135,"end":8613.296,"text":"115他确定会拿到所以等于是说我们知道115会拿到我如果不纳入考量他影响数真的是太大他是真的是太大所以这个部分我必须把它纳入我的一个整个一个财政的一个级距里面去做考量这样对我整个"},{"start":8613.856,"end":8640.223,"text":"台灣才會比較有效的一個運用所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均這對所有有一些其他的一個形式是很大的不公平主席長 現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的"},{"start":8641.403,"end":8655.858,"text":"因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年的就還沒有入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自籌款要提高"},{"start":8656.86,"end":8679.165,"text":"自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾署长 所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法"},{"start":8679.685,"end":8695.463,"text":"但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK"},{"start":8696.884,"end":8712.416,"text":"所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們"},{"start":8713.817,"end":8728.351,"text":"做大事要走大路不要說好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長"},{"start":8735.757,"end":8755.568,"text":"是 市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導"},{"start":8757.21,"end":8767.787,"text":"財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額是所以我要請教部長"},{"start":8769.117,"end":8788.192,"text":"先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助基準財政收支的差額"},{"start":8790.648,"end":8813.939,"text":"委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會"},{"start":8814.759,"end":8834.376,"text":"按照哪一種公式你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要市長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就其中二次分配"},{"start":8835.797,"end":8855.671,"text":"你就做二次分配二次分配还有余额就做第三次的分配但是问题没有修法之前这样不是很单纯吗但是问题没有修法我们就是因为它明文规定明文规定就是没有规定我们就比较依照这种方式就依照原来法律的规定的一个精神去做再次分配不是 我不是说没有规定而是说它明文规定"},{"start":8856.391,"end":8881.869,"text":"它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去"},{"start":8882.809,"end":8898.157,"text":"市長 財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配"},{"start":8898.917,"end":8922.167,"text":"我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了 早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在哪裡主席我再最後一個一分鐘的一個問題將來就是說如果將來公司解決了"},{"start":8926.129,"end":8952.423,"text":"能夠儘速解決這個問題看財政部如何來修法來解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個"},{"start":8959.37,"end":8982.171,"text":"這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低"},{"start":8983.151,"end":9003.156,"text":"我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為滿細的我是覺得剛剛講的八八那一步 簡單二要講所以我這樣講 還是會後我再跟委員解釋好不好市長 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說"},{"start":9004.556,"end":9026.069,"text":"就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則"},{"start":9027.23,"end":9043.893,"text":"所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量好不好我想我們的目標是一樣的再做回覆了再給趙偉回覆一下好 謝謝我們林志明 趙偉我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9054.497,"end":9058.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9350.523,"end":9356.207,"text":"好 報告委員會我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請袁寬恆委員質詢主席各位列席官員各位委員同事大家好主席有請主席處我們陳淑芝總長請陳主席長還有呢沒有就好請主席長"},{"start":9381.019,"end":9381.29,"text":"委員好"},{"start":9383.27,"end":9410.408,"text":"主席長早主席處在6月2日發函給各縣市政府徵詢修正中央對縣市政府補助辦法的意見先不說內容是什麼光是說三天內要求回覆這非常誇張我們立法院要求各部會提供資料或者是請或者是要求這些政策內容到辦公室報告的部分部會都沒有辦法在三天內回覆"},{"start":9412.949,"end":9426.158,"text":"各部會沒辦法做到的事情主計總署卻要求各縣市政府三天內就要給出意見那其實根本就沒有要徵詢縣市政府的意見這其實只是一個走形式過場而已"},{"start":9430.622,"end":9453.004,"text":"這樣的一個時間安排完全不考慮到地方政府實務面的運作情況完全不顧地方政府的反應跟需求當然主席長你的回覆是說因為修法幅度不大也沒有要求地方政府要準時繳交意見這樣子讓我更加難以置信因為影響層面這麼大你說不用準時繳交意見"},{"start":9454.625,"end":9475.836,"text":"主席總署如果這樣子的草率形式提倡東西可以不準時交沒關係各縣市政府尤其是財政困難的政府看到這一次一般性補助款這樣子的一個修正都措手不及中央對地方的補助款應該是落實到財政均衡"},{"start":9476.896,"end":9502.125,"text":"協助地方維持公共服務品質但是我們看到在編列與分配上出現了嚴重的偏差跟不透明裡面關鍵的權重設定評估項目指標計算方式等都由中央單方面的來決定例如人口數財政自給率社會福利支出等指標"},{"start":9503.973,"end":9530.056,"text":"中央都可藉由資料統計來源來玩數字遊戲來操縱結果造成分配的一個落差補助款對於各縣市政府非常重要因為涉及社福教育基礎建設民生預算等那過程粗糙不堪地方制度法第69條第三項規定中央對地方的補助需要明定項目對象跟比例"},{"start":9531.355,"end":9557.755,"text":"過去補助規定以付表方式呈現明定列出補助事項此次修法將兩個付表全部刪除導致地方政府無法掌握中央補助會有補助哪些項目也會影響到預算籌編作業預算稅率應該如何編列那編列不足的部分是不是強迫地方政府來舉債"},{"start":9559.332,"end":9571.918,"text":"本來應該公開透明的政府機關由中央政府開始做起黑箱作業各地方政府對於中央如何分配補助款一概未知"},{"start":9573.228,"end":9588.443,"text":"修正補助項目不再名列之後該如何確保補助款分配的公平性與透明性請主計長說明我要跟委員報告的部分就是說這個部分所謂的"},{"start":9590.325,"end":9602.077,"text":"我們在6月2號徵詢地方的意見事實上就是說在8月14才召開相關意見的一個徵詢會議以往的經驗當中就是陸陸續續都可以提供意見所以我們在8月14召開意見徵詢會議的時候"},{"start":9611.767,"end":9638.904,"text":"就是也会把各地方陆陆续续提的意见然后来做一个讨论那所以我们在另外我们在8月25也会有分配机制的一个说明到9月13也邀请各县市首长来做补助交流的一个会议另外在9月17又做一个召开来说明补助项目案金额一个说明会那第二个呢"},{"start":9639.304,"end":9652.792,"text":"如果說那個付表的這個部分取消那個部分我們是改以那個就是還是有確定項目付表的部分"},{"start":9654.306,"end":9679.082,"text":"對 我們還是有新增一個就是涵蓋一般信項計劃型原來的副表一二三處但是我們還是有新增一個副表去涵蓋一般信項計劃型的一個補助項目而且大部分其實大部分都是原來的一個舊計劃引導這是有部分需要中央政策引導的一個項目這個部分我們就延續然後由各部會來訂定一個"},{"start":9680.723,"end":9688.311,"text":"一個補助的一個相關的考核和一個審核的一個要點好 主委長我知道這大家心裡都很清楚"},{"start":9690.243,"end":9715.857,"text":"這個修正後的條文不明確那補助款的分配就是一個黑箱作業就像台中捷運南線明年中央應該要補助台中約大概新台幣42億但是交通部卻只承諾合撥1.68億短掃高達96%依照補助款的規定南線建設經費由中央負擔40%那台中市負擔6成"},{"start":9719.212,"end":9726.982,"text":"但是依照原本的比例計算明年中央應該要補助台中42億但是交通部卻只承諾合撥1.6億短掃"},{"start":9730.747,"end":9753.494,"text":"60倍你們這樣的做法等於是嚴重違背中央跟地方的合作承諾直接衝擊捷運南線的一個建設時程此次修正將一般性補助款又改為申請制那代表以後說補助就要按照政黨的一個以後的補助都要按照政黨來進行分配只要縣市長感動"},{"start":9755.074,"end":9776.261,"text":"就可以拿到更多的補助款相反的像台中市政府就只能繼續被中央剝奪如果一般性補助款分配完全依賴申請制那不就等於賦予執政黨中央更巨大的一個資源控制權進一步的加劇中央對地方的政治操作地方自治就是淪為口號"},{"start":9777.361,"end":9795.915,"text":"所以以前台中市政府努力還債讓台中市民平均負債可以減少把台中市的財力成績財力的一個成績從三級拉到二級台中市本身就是常年被中央大小眼的城市所以好不容易把自己的財力"},{"start":9797.456,"end":9815.065,"text":"集賜 然後提升到二級 沒有用因為公視不公不楚補助全靠中央的臉色中央也可以利用財力集賜二級來作為藉口不給補助款所以實際上就是台中市又要再一次地被中央剝一層皮"},{"start":9815.965,"end":9830.662,"text":"主委長你不覺得說這一次補助法的一個補助辦法的修正只是讓各縣市政府更加的積極更積極的舉債那你中央也不管啊對不對那只有讓地方政府這樣子一個惡性循環是不是這樣子"},{"start":9831.564,"end":9861.24,"text":"我跟委員報告一下所謂的台中南線的一個補助像有關軌道或者是捷運相關的一個建設計畫在中央來講它都沒有剪裂只是它今年編列有困難依照補助的辦法就是中央佔四成 地方佔六成高雄因為財力集市第三級所以它才中央補助六成地方要負責四成所以這個都擺在眼前大家看得到了"},{"start":9861.54,"end":9884.416,"text":"所以它這個部分它都沒有改變它今年是因為它沒有辦法補助額度這麼多所以它是往後延並不是說它不給那以台中來講它是考量它整個工程都還沒有花包然後都市變更都沒有完成用地沒有取得所以才給它金額比較少但是如果它工程花包所以40億什麼時候會到位"},{"start":9886.437,"end":9903.223,"text":"以后年度它会按照它的工程进度去做拨补所以这个部分是没有修正的这是那个交通部跟你说明的吗这个以目前它在115年度预算数上表达的就是这样子它的补助比例整个都没有做变更"},{"start":9905.208,"end":9925.403,"text":"我跟你講各地方的重大建設都不應該被卡尤其是用這種方式是 所以軌道的部分我們都沒有一般是沒有這個部分我們原則上都是支持只是它現在中央要編出來是有它的困難所以它是往後延它按照它實際的進度不是按照你所提的需求數"},{"start":9926.144,"end":9954.008,"text":"好 主席長你身為中華民國的主席長你應該要為全體國人為中華民國的國民來著想絕對不是看顏色辦事好不好所以我希望你們不要一錯再錯好不好這個部分我們也絕對支持像軌道的部分涉及到比較大眾捷運的一個部分我們原則上是希望能夠支持中央地方共同來協助把它完成好的 謝謝"},{"start":9958.496,"end":9964.197,"text":"好 我們謝謝袁匡衡委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 我請主席長還有財政部次長好 請主席長還有阮次長委員好"},{"start":9985.857,"end":9994.082,"text":"兩位首長好我想大家都非常關心的還是財政部昨天再邀了地方政府討論財化法那昨天開會的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":9997.745,"end":10021.093,"text":"昨天我覺得是大家有一個非常不錯的交換意見所以起碼就是整個分配的架構大家是有共識我看到你們的是說統籌款跟一般性補助款不低於7177就是2015的目標就是我們立法院立法的原意 對吧"},{"start":10022.273,"end":10033.899,"text":"但是統籌款是統籌款然後一般性補助款還有計畫性補助款這中間的關係尤其是今年你們預算已經編了請問這個新的討論跟你的預算編列會做什麼樣的調整"},{"start":10038.379,"end":10051.458,"text":"我們基本上我昨天溝通的是針對統籌分配稅統籌款統籌款那一部分補助款那一部分由總署那邊來負責所以補助款就是主計處的"},{"start":10053.402,"end":10074.422,"text":"那基本上昨天就是對剛剛講的分配價格市長我還是一樣我剛剛問的是預算已經編了明年各地方政府也編了預算現在立法院雖然還沒開始審但是你們將來這個法說年底才要送來請問我預算審了你法又來修那到底是預算先過還是法要先過啊"},{"start":10075.724,"end":10089.017,"text":"是這樣子 你了解我的意思嗎我知道你的法又在修 我的預算又這樣編然後法又修來的時候又不一樣立法院也不見得會通過你們的版本所以到時候一定變成一個又要追加減 是嗎"},{"start":10090.684,"end":10105.32,"text":"如果是我們就是說會在這個年底前這個送修法案的話原則上是到年底前只剩下71天116年立法院正要審預算所以我不知道要怎麼審"},{"start":10106.361,"end":10133.611,"text":"對 但是我們這個案子一定是從116年以後才開始用不會影響到115年不影響所以我們預算可以照審你的法可以照過你的意思是這樣我還是要回到原點一年多了立法院這一屆一上任就要修裁划法這一年多你們說一直在找地方政府開了幾次會到昨天還在開會我實在不知道你們到現在為止還拿不出自己的版本到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":10134.191,"end":10153.979,"text":"這一年多都是白搭都在睡覺不會跟委員報告其實我們現在積極在做你們積極在做這我已經聽了一年了耳朵都開始長繭了我在說年底一定有版本一定有相關未來所有的可長可久卓院長口中說請鄭麗君副院長來做相關的統籌請問你們開過幾次會跟鄭副院長"},{"start":10159.423,"end":10164.134,"text":"我們基本上我剛才講過就是說我們爭取能夠我問你們開過幾次會我們開過四次會了"},{"start":10166.997,"end":10189.166,"text":"我問跟鄭副院長開過幾次會跟副院長那邊開那個算不清楚了開才化法的會開過幾次開過很多次會我已經記不出來多少次什麼時候開始開的開到現在還在開啊就一直在溝通一直在精進相關的法案的內容好 那昨天這個會主計處有沒有參加"},{"start":10190.965,"end":10213.63,"text":"有有有有參加主席長沒有參加沒有那都是比較其實技術層面的同仁在在在我的想法很簡單啦就是只有71天你們自己溝通你還有一個東西叫做跟立法院溝通我們現在沒有聽到你們要跟我們溝通的意思而且過程裡面我一直問版本到現在為止只看到上次院長在"},{"start":10215.956,"end":10226.262,"text":"議場說我有版本在手上這個版本到現在沒有見過光次長 很簡單我們在這個財政委員會這總要見公婆的啦時間到了"},{"start":10227.349,"end":10253.822,"text":"不管省預算也好還是要財化法的版本也好都必須要在這邊做審查另外國民黨本身的公私爭議的還有補助款的爭議它都有版本而且都進付二讀了11月中就可以表決了所以到時候表決通過的是立法院的版本你們的版本又擺在後面了這才是我覺得行政機關最大的問題這是我所以我跟委員報告你不要讓這種事情發生吧再來善後善後再善後"},{"start":10254.682,"end":10279.487,"text":"要嘛就快一點要嘛就跟立法院好好溝通怎麼樣在這個財化法上面能夠找到一個最大的共識而不是只是你們在閉門造局當然所以謝謝委員的指教這個也是我們未來要處理的事情現在看起來就是你們慢慢拖拖拖才會拖到今天這樣的僵局到現在還要去跟地方政府開會地方政府來這邊開過幾次會"},{"start":10282.419,"end":10298.219,"text":"重視人家就不會拖到現在重視人家的意見就不會讓地方政府還要到你們那邊來哭窮如果立法院沒有幫他們通過他們永遠在看你們的臉色我覺得今天的問題是行政機關請尊重地方政府什麼叫財政自主"},{"start":10298.618,"end":10313.729,"text":"我覺得應該地方政府不是看中央的臉色不要把它當成你們的下屬機關大家是一種合作關係這是中華民國是大家的這個我完全贊同所以財政地方自主是地方自治非常重要的精神"},{"start":10314.349,"end":10338.068,"text":"那中央是要去怎麼樣協助或平衡但是不是把它當成你們的籌碼去做分配這個很重要接下來次長我還有一個問題我們現在很多政府的政策是鼓勵所謂的終身學習 再次進修目前新的世界已經來臨"},{"start":10340.049,"end":10369.04,"text":"尤其是像人工智慧 區塊鏈各種新興的技術那現在全時的工作者都會選擇再回到學校進修不過我們目前為止台灣有非常多的大學開了在職專班還有EMBA但是在我們的稅法裡面對於這些終身學習好像沒有給予特別的優惠或者是說我們現在的所謂的扣除額裡面它有一定的限制所以"},{"start":10370.41,"end":10383.022,"text":"如果我的小孩在念大學我可以扣但我自己念書不能扣你覺得這樣合理嗎跟委員報告目前的稅法規定對這是不是我們應該要做一些檢討"},{"start":10387.105,"end":10402.908,"text":"所以我簡單的讓我說明一下目前的規定就是說目前我們對子女的教育補助費每年是2.5萬元這個是子女 很少啦針對她的撫養性質 既然念書怎麼可能只有2.5萬元所以說剛才委員提到本人那一部分"},{"start":10403.488,"end":10428.463,"text":"那我們是目前是做法是說從他的薪資目前是用薪資特別扣除額去扣或者是列舉扣除額比如說你職業專用的服裝進修訓練費或職業上工具的支出這個我都知道但是他有很多的限制第一個要跟工作有關的技能我如果是念法務我要去念法律他才能扣但是我去念法務我去念EMBA可能就不能扣"},{"start":10428.923,"end":10438.494,"text":"我的意思是說終身學習不應該做這些限制第二個扣減的比例很低因為薪資特別扣除了扣得比較多所以在美國它其實有一個終身學習"},{"start":10441.015,"end":10464.572,"text":"減稅額每一個夫妻合併申報不超過18萬美元的話本人配偶受撫養人的大學研究所跟專業學位都可以申請扣減最高限額抵稅金2000美金也就是6萬元這個我認為我們也會在財委會來提案因為我覺得終身學習尤其是我自己在讀書不能扣我的小孩讀書可以扣這很奇怪"},{"start":10465.573,"end":10491.6,"text":"那金額也不高但是接下來的世界我剛剛說非常的新連我們現在包括我們這個年紀我們可能都要去學一下AI了這些東西都不會是停下來的所以委員這個概念很好啦但是我是覺得就是說我們會提案那也請你們開始研議這部分的金額跟相關的稅損有可能有減少多少我相信不會太多"},{"start":10492,"end":10517.566,"text":"我們倒是會精算但是我覺得目前我們是希望因為現在扣除額實在太多了就造成就是說百分之將近一半的人這就是大家都因為中華民國萬萬歲只能一直找扣除額不然要怎麼辦現在碩士在職專班有5.3萬人也就是說這是國家很重要的人才苦如果大家願意去讀書我們應該是鼓勵的好嗎"},{"start":10518.626,"end":10522.649,"text":"我們當然一定要鼓勵但是是不是一定要用稅的方式好 最後一個問題主席長 我想問一下"},{"start":10526.238,"end":10555.032,"text":"還有財政部賴總統8年要直接興建13萬戶的社會住宅到現在所謂的直接興辦社會住宅的百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫聽說還沒有核定沒有核定的原因是各部會審查意見還是希望內政部說要有更多的錢去買地但是主計總署反對請問是主計總署在反對蓋社宅嗎"},{"start":10556.657,"end":10574.335,"text":"我們是沒有反對說蓋社宅可是你們說要尊潔減少國庫財務負擔所以到現在沒有核定的原因是這個嗎不是 因為事實上就是說你租屋補貼和建社宅這兩個到底要採哪一個所以不是主計總署的意見賴總統的政見要不要執行"},{"start":10580.905,"end":10602.696,"text":"這是要執行的 但是就是說我執行的方式要用什麼方式來對它最容易合定計畫都有這麼難嗎至少先合定然後大家去找裁員本來就是這樣啊你連合定計畫都沒有那連合定都不合定所以根本不知道要怎麼辦現在有方法了嗎百萬社宅蓋不蓋嗎"},{"start":10604.714,"end":10618.751,"text":"她是涉宅她不是她百萬的一個涉宅包括租屋補貼嘛租屋補貼嘛租屋制裁計畫辦不辦嘛這個計畫是她的總統政見到現在一年了還在指紋樓梯響啊"},{"start":10620.287,"end":10632.738,"text":"所以25萬裡面分為就是我都知道細節我只問你們這個計劃要不要辦還是什麼時候會核定還是主席處一開始就說不要是誰在打是誰在停"},{"start":10635.966,"end":10655.577,"text":"我問各部會 各部會說是主計處的意見反對啊那什麼時候要給我答案我們這個會期要審預算啦所以我想知道這個百萬住宅基金的相關的計畫尤其是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫"},{"start":10657.489,"end":10684.774,"text":"今年年底會不會有個計畫有沒有一個完整的計畫還是你主計處告訴給我一個你們的意見完整的給我這個部分就是說內政部他是怎樣我們是再來跟他一個我們希望如果是政府要做主計處不應該是那個阻礙的人我們沒有阻礙我們只是提供更好的分析給他參考財政部也一樣剛剛講沒有錢請問你們要去找錢才有辦法做這件事聽起來是這樣"},{"start":10686.395,"end":10691.774,"text":"所以財政部的立場呢我們要不要支持百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫呢"},{"start":10692.967,"end":10720.445,"text":"因為這個就是健全這個房市市場的一部分所以基本上它是一個國家的政策一年了這個計畫連影子都沒有這很離譜啊好不好兩位你們身為財主機關我覺得如果我們百萬家庭的租屋計畫沒有裁員那你們就要大聲的去向其他單位說大家要怎麼來想辦法而不是只是提了一個空殼的計畫好嗎沒有核定這件事情很離譜啊好 謝謝"},{"start":10724.161,"end":10745.455,"text":"好 謝謝黃先生委員我想財政部跟主席處這一部分剛剛黃委員的這個質詢的內容這一部分應該跟行政院來好好溝通迅速核定這是賴總統的一個政見OK跟內政部要好好再去討論好 接下來請羅明財委員質詢"},{"start":10756.633,"end":10783.685,"text":"主席貴文 處列席官員大家好主席柯佛請財政部阮次長請阮次主席總署還有陳主席長陳主席長好兩位都是很重要的財經官員謝謝那我們看到整個全世界的變化請問一下現在新加坡的人均GDP是多少"},{"start":10784.881,"end":10803.058,"text":"新加坡人均9萬5千美元左右台灣人均的GDP是多少3萬8千美元"},{"start":10804.828,"end":10822.576,"text":"如果用總數來算的話今年預估是26兆多 明年預估大概28兆多所以人均的GDP大概多少人均的話大概是3萬5左右明年的話就預估是超過4萬"},{"start":10825.894,"end":10852.751,"text":"来来来 主记这边三万四 人均是三万四大声的没关系人均三万四 明年差不多三万八明年三万八三万八是一个大家听起来就比较振奋的数字虽然多数人的无感那我们现在就看着怎么样在你的施政上可以匆匆隆隆下一句"},{"start":10854.011,"end":10877.317,"text":"游刃有餘你不要捉襟見肘所以要把餅做大在30年前台灣是四小龍之首我們人均GDP那時候贏過新加坡就新加坡現在的成長人均GDP到9萬5千美元"},{"start":10879.093,"end":10895.412,"text":"我們就一直在思考應該怎麼做把餅做大把台灣做強讓我們在國際更有競爭的一個優勢所以 卵次長"},{"start":10896.874,"end":10917.051,"text":"先請教你一下因為今天大概討論很多就是一般型補助 計畫型補助當然在我們地方的立場是越多越好可是我們新北現在減少了很多等一下麻煩請主計長這邊再來說明一下首先就是請阮次長把餅做大這個很重要你看我們累積大概"},{"start":10925.273,"end":10948.099,"text":"六七年来税收大概超过一兆八千亿这个钱到底跑去哪里我跟委员报告基本上它就是第一个它就是用来还债这是第一个因为我们没有还多少我们还债你还债我们国债中也是差不多它一直在升高"},{"start":10949.473,"end":10975.241,"text":"現在國債中的情況是多少另外我也跟委員報告其實大家可能看到的那些所謂時增數超過預算數都是總預算如果我們加計特別預算的話以過去從101年到去年為止113年為止這13年當中只有4年是有剩餘的其他都是赤字"},{"start":10976.101,"end":10995.502,"text":"所以我是講說不能只看總預算要看包括總預算跟特別預算統籌來看是 所以你有沒有發現特別預算變成是一個巧門也不會 因為所有的預算都要經過立法院這邊通過這十年來你有沒有算過特別預算加一加總額多少"},{"start":10996.424,"end":11025.145,"text":"特別預算我這邊手上因為一直在增加最近的數字可能我請同仁在會後我是不是再提供給參考這個數字你要多清楚一點就是說我們感覺稅收都超增結果錢一兆八千億到底跑去哪裡大家覺得那沒有的話你要把這個實質的好處讓人民有感或者是軍公家要調心結果好像"},{"start":11026.144,"end":11050.435,"text":"也沒有那種快樂指數上升的感覺 沒有啊所以我們在想說應該要好好來思考一下什麼樣的一個方法可以像新加坡一樣讓我們人均GDP可以急起直追至少有機會到新加坡了你不要說一樣 至少要打八折吧"},{"start":11050.899,"end":11072.031,"text":"我跟委員報告 以我對產業的了解我們跟新加坡的產業結構是非常不一樣的我們的產業結構比較類似像韓國或甚至跟日本比較類似所以新加坡它畢竟是一個城市國家它的主要的收入來源最主要是靠投資 靠金融"},{"start":11072.671,"end":11098.929,"text":"那我們是靠一般的這個製造業所以像我們製造業我們包括我們ICT產業就佔我們出口就佔百分之七成五全部都是靠IC產業所以很重要一部分電池產業所以我的意思是說最近這幾年為什麼我們能夠超越韓國就是因為我們在這方面比韓國還要強還要強那表示這個警訊已經出現了"},{"start":11099.89,"end":11121.946,"text":"我們現在全部都靠護國神山現在又有漁工要移山把這座山移到美國去那我們剩下什麼山我們只剩阿里山我覺得我想不管是我們院的長官就是卓院長也一再強調還有很多的相關的卓院長是不是辭了好幾次要請辭是不是你有沒有聽過哪位卓院長"},{"start":11127.423,"end":11134.542,"text":"我不曉得這個次長官的事我不會怎麼知道你當次長不是都要請辭三次四次都被拒絕啊"},{"start":11137.339,"end":11160.627,"text":"這個我不太清楚你再問問看但是我是覺得有消息跟我講一下我們的產業就是說剛才講說戶口神山戶口神山到其他國家去投資到底是不是會不會影響到台灣的經濟發展其實到目前的所有的研究報告都認為是擴大我們對這個產業的影響力而不是掏空我們國內的經濟"},{"start":11166.17,"end":11186.346,"text":"所以市長的說法是有點正面因為最主要是核心留在台灣好 金娘你這樣說台灣的股市有沒有機會破3萬點我不是股市分析師但是最近股市真的是非常的強真的很強"},{"start":11186.986,"end":11200.091,"text":"那最主要也是因為我們的就是AI的產業高速運算產業這一部分這個是可以講說是成長非常的快市長 你現在那個國安基金要不要擴大它的規模"},{"start":11202.274,"end":11228.412,"text":"如果委員支持的話我就樂觀其成因為為什麼現在總共五千億嗎現在五千億但是實際上可以用的只有兩千億因為另外三千億是要跟其他基金借但是其他基金其實已經沒有錢因為錢都投進去了所以我們能夠只有能夠用的大概就兩千億因為以前最多的話大概是一萬多點在談國安基金的時候是五千億現在我們整個台灣的股市的市值是多少"},{"start":11228.912,"end":11241.451,"text":"現在都超過40億以上了40兆以上了嘛40兆 那40兆你要40的調升調升的話有沒有可能5000億往上調調到1兆左右如果可以的話我絕對都關其成我覺得1兆也還勉強啦"},{"start":11245.336,"end":11268.042,"text":"也沒有多多少啦我所謂一兆是說扣除那個就是扣除那些從基金借的假定是說我們可以從行戶那邊借到7000億的話我是覺得對股市的穩定 民心的穩定還有投資的信心一定有很大的幫助所以你現在算起來就是加起來你可以運作的希望可以達到超過一兆以上"},{"start":11268.962,"end":11287.773,"text":"差不多啦 差不多那個金額如果委員支持的話我就覺得這個是一個很好的方向支持我要再研究一下看你會不會匆匆容容好那最重要的是你要把一些好的一些說則把它提出來修法"},{"start":11288.686,"end":11310.258,"text":"你起碼跟新加坡一樣為什麼人家你說是城市國家會發展得很好那好的地方在哪裡你可以通盤檢討一下是好不好我也希望說趕快把一些外在的環境排除以後希望股市可以上看多少"},{"start":11314.199,"end":11340.63,"text":"這個我沒辦法說沒有 這個數字是三萬三萬是OK的意思OK 那有很多的因素我幫次長講三萬點三萬點因為一萬我也請你吃過雞排喝過珍奶兩萬也吃過了等著這個三萬我會加倍奉還可是請你要注意一下 因為"},{"start":11341.898,"end":11358.584,"text":"現在台灣的這個結構有錢的賺了很多AI周邊賺很多傳統產業苦哈哈傳統產業的部分大概平均三分之二不漲反跌跌破20年平均線"},{"start":11359.824,"end":11386.405,"text":"所以本席也希望還有主計總書這邊也注意這個問題就對於弱勢關懷比如說新北市需要照顧不管是你一般補助或計畫型的補助你要增加他的關愛的眼神金額要多一點因為必須我們400多萬人人數最多人均來講我們是最辛苦的請多多照顧"},{"start":11387.466,"end":11390.875,"text":"新北市 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝羅明財委員接下來請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":11415.896,"end":11419.197,"text":"謝謝主席 我請主席長好 請陳主席長委員好主席長我們前年112年國庫統計那麼在台股多頭助攻之下我們平均每戶家庭資產1889萬1889萬創"},{"start":11443.125,"end":11455.45,"text":"數十年來新高啦那這當然是好事不過我覺得這些數字背後還是有一些問題啦就是說如果你看一下我們"},{"start":11457.178,"end":11476.285,"text":"財富分配表這個財富分配也是我們主計數30年前民國80年你們先公布一次那麼拿來跟30年後就是最新的這一次是在你們在4年前公布的那麼如果我們把財富五等分來分"},{"start":11478.086,"end":11486.112,"text":"每20%這樣子來做一個區塊來分那麼這個財富的差距最前段的20%跟最後段的20%相比30年前民國80年的時候是16.8倍最有錢的20%是最貧窮的20%的16.8倍竟然經過30年"},{"start":11507.335,"end":11527.168,"text":"大家全國上下舉國的奮鬥之後結論竟然是高達66.9倍也就是說富者越富 貧者越貧那更可怕的是你如果把前20%財富佔比那本來啊"},{"start":11533.567,"end":11552.472,"text":"30年前民國80年的時候是大概將近50% 49.71%在最新的這一次竟然前20%的富有民眾竟然佔比是高達62.68%"},{"start":11557.182,"end":11568.052,"text":"有六成多的財富集中在前20%的民眾當中你覺得這樣對嗎那更可怕更可怕的還什麼後段最後20%的財富"},{"start":11577.451,"end":11600.26,"text":"本來還僅僅只有2.95 30年前至少還有佔將近3%30年後竟然佔不到1%只有0.94那所得更不用講所得更不用講前20%所得有1306萬"},{"start":11605.034,"end":11632.49,"text":"要升到5133萬這很好喔我們大家不忌妒他們但是後20%的家庭財富竟然是衰退30年前78萬30年後的今天77萬看起來表面跌了1萬但是主席長你如果把幣值"},{"start":11633.905,"end":11651.735,"text":"跟這30年來的通貨膨脹相比而言現在如果家庭財富77萬元一個家庭那可以說是赤貧那可以說是一窮二白不是嗎所以"},{"start":11654.608,"end":11681.258,"text":"我為什麼提到這個事情我們上個禮拜在這邊質詢的時候我在講說我們儲計數的數字一定要很詳實為什麼因為越詳實越能找出問題那我們用國家的稅制來做個平衡不是這樣嗎所以我上禮拜說我們如果實質調查的結果"},{"start":11683.462,"end":11693.208,"text":"我認為我們台灣貧窮黑素的人口有高達兩百萬之多啦當時我們有做這樣的切磋那麼"},{"start":11694.502,"end":11721.508,"text":"我們當然政府必須去宣傳國家的好這是應當的每個國家都一樣歐美日大家都一樣都講股票很好股票是經濟的櫥窗沒有錯我們這些年股票確實是好但是並不是2300萬台灣人每個人都在買賣股票不是啊而且買賣股票的人也不一定每個人都賺不是嗎那"},{"start":11724.622,"end":11752.092,"text":"能力有高低 運氣有好壞所以每個人機運不同可能人家能力強的 運氣好的他去富有這個沒有人會去忌妒問題是在我們的稅制在我們現行的制度下我們已經很嚴重造成貧富不均所以我認為稅制的改革"},{"start":11752.992,"end":11771.45,"text":"那第一步應該從主計處給的數字主計處給的數字如果給的數字不是在那麼詳實的時候那麼他們在計稅的稅制的調整下他們會麻木不仁所以時間暫停我請那個複稅署好 我們時間暫停一下今天署長沒有來嗎"},{"start":11777.113,"end":11785.179,"text":"請李副署長副署長是負責應付業來應付就對了你請就位那個委員好署長在處長的"},{"start":11801.016,"end":11827.612,"text":"這個我跟他嚴厲的要求對每一項我們國內各項數字的統計一定要詳實那這些數字都有到你們負稅署的手上那麼我們可以很清楚的看到我們數十年來綜合所得稅薪資所得佔的稅比將近是最高的佔了21.6之高"},{"start":11829.949,"end":11858.678,"text":"高過營業稅 高過資產稅高過政交稅 高過關稅也高過貨物稅也就是我們來自壽星階層我們辛苦的工作血汗錢那大家都盡了國民應盡的義務都給到這麼高但是這上面針對薪資的部分薪資的部分"},{"start":11860.565,"end":11866.829,"text":"這麼多年來調整慢如牛布啦那所以十幾年前大概十二年前吧那麼"},{"start":11869.39,"end":11895.828,"text":"櫃鼠有跟經濟部有聯合當時有說針對這個中小企業發展條例來修法因為也就是說我們希望能夠加薪減稅那當時好不容易修了增加了一些條款減去了一些排除條款之後員工加薪租稅的優惠有達成但是你們修好的時候"},{"start":11896.488,"end":11910.831,"text":"也只有實質也只有兩年只有這兩年有動用到這個條例讓企業去加薪減稅那加薪的人口多少有一年105年2008人隔一年1730人然後加薪總薪師"},{"start":11922.174,"end":11945.666,"text":"總加多少總加六千萬六千萬而已那當然你們也給企業家中小企業家這六千萬的給了一千七百萬的租稅減免這是很好也就是說啊這個修法還不夠徹底績效不彰啦績效不彰好啦那"},{"start":11950.017,"end":11973.775,"text":"所以我們立院我們一再敦促之下你們去年七月也修法然後你們刪除了失業率這個門檻那也把這個營運所的減除率由138提高到175%我現在要問你的就是說好 修這樣很好這去年七月修的但到現在一年多"},{"start":11975.135,"end":11991.869,"text":"現在十月底請問你這個修法以後到現在為止有沒有去檢討它的成效如何不要再像十年前那個一樣好不容易大陣仗修了結果十幾年來"},{"start":11993.988,"end":12014.148,"text":"就只有兩年有被中小企業運用到可見你們沒有積極去推動沒有積極去鼓勵結果兩年就我跟你講了我們高達八成的民眾是在中小企業上班內六七百萬人以上結果兩年合計"},{"start":12015.669,"end":12043.107,"text":"不到四千人因為這樣被加薪企業因為這樣被減稅金額才六千萬這不是笑話嗎所以我認為土法不足以自行你們修了以後你們要去追蹤要去推動要去鼓勵啊所以我請問你啊去年七月修了以後到現在你們去調查成效如何"},{"start":12044.235,"end":12057.221,"text":"是 謝謝委員這個成效有顯現出來大概我們有三萬四千的人可以試用那費用的部分大概有減掉了我們四點五億那稅額大概就九千萬所以有去檢討了是的"},{"start":12059.602,"end":12079.021,"text":"我檢討這點我就覺得很好很好但是進了還太少了你不覺得嗎就我跟你講的中小企業壽星的民眾那高達八成之多所以這個部分是好的開始但是數字還太少持續push"},{"start":12079.341,"end":12097.154,"text":"那是不是那个组织长你就继续跟赋税署跟他们提点把精确的数字告知他们好不好我跟委员报告一下因为30年前的国务调查和现在110年调查的一个它调查方法是不一样"},{"start":12098.715,"end":12114.082,"text":"110年是用大數據那將來呢我們大因為這間隔30年他有一些相關的一個數據差距很大那現在這個部分呢他不能說一個直接去比較但是我們現在是每4年我們就要發布一次整個一個"},{"start":12115.662,"end":12137.96,"text":"財務的一個數據整個家庭財務分配的一個我們大概四年會用大數據來公布一次所以你的意思是那過去三十年前比較不精準他調查的方法不一樣不能用來比較因為調查方法不一樣比較的方式出來的但是你可以看出這個絕對值第一個我認為絕對可以比較因為這個在我們民眾之間"},{"start":12142.603,"end":12159.642,"text":"大家感覺上也是這樣第二點你以絕對值來看那我們就講30年後的今天現在110年這一次竟然家戶的財富最平的20%末段班的20%竟然只有77萬我請問你這是對的嗎"},{"start":12162.765,"end":12186.049,"text":"因为后末段班的他的财富为什么是77万他也有可能是他的资产他很大一个资产但是他很大的负债因为为什么他买房可能要负债很多所以减去之后他是这样的一个数值来呈现表示说现在比较多数比较就是单人或者是年轻人他比较会有说他买房的负担是这样子"},{"start":12186.289,"end":12199.901,"text":"本來資產就是要算淨值這跟他借不借款無關這本來就要扣除的嘛但是他可資用家庭財富就是77萬你不覺得77萬在現今的社會物價這麼高漲幣值這麼薄弱之下你不覺得這是赤貧嗎你不覺得這是一窮二白嗎"},{"start":12212.172,"end":12224.134,"text":"所以我們很透過很多政府的一個補助的支出移轉式的支出有去做改善你去看我們上禮拜的質詢我才跟你說貧窮黑數那個補助那個少之又少只有佔2.1%而我們貧窮的黑數有高達16%這麼一插這麼一來一回一插200萬人之多好不好好謝謝王世堅委員"},{"start":12243.655,"end":12243.937,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":12274.539,"end":12293.605,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席長還有阮市長好 請陳主席長還有阮市長委員好今天討論這個一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款剛剛王世堅 王瑩剛剛質詢完"},{"start":12296.31,"end":12318.013,"text":"這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的如果套用王世堅的那個歌這本來應該是匆匆容容可以游刃有意要討論的啊結果現在行政院把他搞得變成是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話昨天財政部邀了各個地方政府"},{"start":12320.734,"end":12343.684,"text":"美企業說是協調可是看起來好像就是地方政府一定要接受的市長我看了你們昨天的一個講話你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少"},{"start":12345.174,"end":12364.625,"text":"事實上你們昨天都在討論的是各個縣市之間的這個水平分配現在問題不在那裡嘛才化法最重要精神是什麼就是以前的錢 中央集權嘛我一直在強調好的財政就是像不倒翁下面一定是要過的結果我們不是我們剛好是倒三角形"},{"start":12365.976,"end":12386.618,"text":"頭重腳輕所以就出現很多地方自治沒辦法推動很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做所以才修了財化法財化的精神就是把中央的拿的太多的錢要下放給地方嘛你昨天開會應該是要討論中央要落實財化法把該有的4千多億落實下放給地方結果不是你們去討論說各個縣市要怎麼分"},{"start":12387.984,"end":12413.68,"text":"搞錯重點 第二個是更嚴重的目前我發現一個非常離譜的事情你們現在行政院好像變成是土皇帝了你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐還在喊窮你們還在從地方在挖錢這是財化法本來修正完下放地方是4100多億 對不對結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的你們是以修辦法你們再從地方又搶了2646億回去"},{"start":12419.063,"end":12437.012,"text":"搶了三分之二我們給大家清楚看一下中央這次要到地方的錢一個是統籌款一個是一般補助款一個是計劃型補助款現在最嚴重的計劃型的補助款今年2954億你們大到一砍砍到剩下308你們怎麼會這樣子"},{"start":12448.829,"end":12468.007,"text":"這個地方很多施政怎麼做等一下我進一步來講這個是影響影響到一般民眾最基礎的這個需求影響到我們很多的基礎建設了第二個影響也是很大的你把一般性的這個補助款你竟然要變成是要去做審查我先問你一下8月28號"},{"start":12476.215,"end":12494.344,"text":"朝野協商的時候就發現說你們竟然做了這麼離譜的這個事情因為一般性的補助款很多都是法定預算法定的義務支出包括薪資 什麼退伍那些你怎麼可能要去審查呢所以那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在你看那個文這個文是不只是通過中東府公告的要求行政院"},{"start":12504.693,"end":12529.77,"text":"不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨包括我三長簽名我簽起來的柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宇都在上面你現在怎麼樣 你是打臉柯建銘他們三長打臉總統府嗎怎麼可以做這樣事情好啦 更嚴重的 你看右下角"},{"start":12531.052,"end":12550.268,"text":"你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉是什麼教育部分的有659億全部都砍喔這裡面要做什麼基本的教育人員的辦事費營養午餐水電冷氣退伏支出限職的待遇調整這錢怎麼能砍呢第二個"},{"start":12557.207,"end":12572.653,"text":"蘇進清一砍了24億他做什麼河川的清一跟蘇進10億內政部下水道14億現在紅台低天災那麼多如果因為你把這個錢砍掉要出了狀況你良心會安嗎"},{"start":12575.014,"end":12593.759,"text":"一般型的補助款怎麼可以這樣改這樣砍呢你這個等於是辦法已經凌越了整個財化法當初的修正而且你是打臉了整個朝鮮協商的結論打臉了總統府接下來看更嚴重的計劃型補助款你砍了這2646億這多嚴重的事情桃園市直接跟你講"},{"start":12601.087,"end":12610.512,"text":"他們桃園力推的珍珠海岸計畫被砍了以後還有校園的無障礙這個補助被砍了以後這全部都出狀況了然後台中市60億本來明年要給人家60億的藍線的這個捷運砍到整家1.6億然後基隆跟彰化縣長跟這個縣長他們跑出來講說"},{"start":12630.997,"end":12659.493,"text":"這次如果本來立法院通過這個財發法修正本來他們的地方的經費是增加的結果你知道裡面乾坤大農以下像這個土匪這樣像土房廳這樣亂砍砍到後來他們的計畫型的這個他們這整個收入啊欸 搞不好比財發法修正以前還要少耶連立營 我給你看一個連你們民進黨的 而且你以前服務過的你長久在台南服務的連台南的財政 收入幾都出來講啊"},{"start":12662.418,"end":12689.238,"text":"他說拜託中央我們有很多計劃型的補助款是已經實施多年他是一個跨年度的他說不要減要不然的話連台南的水利建設都受影響水利長跟次長我今天執行一畫面我要提醒幾個第一個現在問題不在不在縣市之間的移動是垂直"},{"start":12691.38,"end":12708.936,"text":"而且是財化法本來的精神請回到你該給的錢要給地方你不要像土匪 像土房弟你又搶回去了2000多億你現在就搶回去三分之二而且我今天很明確跟你講它已經影響了治水的這個問題教育的問題 薪資的問題基礎建設的這個問題各個縣市政府都出來 拜託了"},{"start":12713.632,"end":12727.449,"text":"拜託你們算時間不要一直在搶錢萬一天災來了你連治水的錢都砍掉了良心何在小孩子的營養午餐被你們砍掉了你疑心何忍"},{"start":12728.735,"end":12757.845,"text":"好不好我说明一下因为115年预算的筹编是很困难的那我们当初去减也是不得已所以我们本身是把原来一般性补助和计划性补助都是属于县市应办的事项所以我们把一些它属于基本它应办的事项回归给县市然后把一些属于需要中央政策引导性的部分来继续编列而且我们还简化你现在就是坐在"},{"start":12758.345,"end":12770.635,"text":"你現在就是坐在金山上面在裝乞丐啦中央政府這麼有錢中央政府現在目前的總預算一年光是一年三兆欸歷年來最有錢的明年還變到三兆一千億欸"},{"start":12772.179,"end":12789.297,"text":"你當主機人也那麼久我跑預算新聞那麼久我們以前的預算中央政府兩兆就不得了了短短這幾年攀升到三兆了你這麼有錢你是大富豪我們地方政府要嘛小康要嘛就小平跟赤平"},{"start":12790.526,"end":12805.778,"text":"就好不容易財化法過了 錢要下放了可以落實地方自治可以照顧地方建設照顧地方的人民你又乾坤大樓又去搶錢搶了兩千多億回去不是我乾坤大樓要搶你現在裝窮第一個我再給你看一個來 主席我再給你看一個專業的數據"},{"start":12807.541,"end":12820.509,"text":"民國88年 你看我的圖民國88年的時候 精準之前中央政府佔所有稅數是多少60.1到現在 經過財務法你如果事件多一多下放"},{"start":12821.993,"end":12845.898,"text":"4000多億都下放還有65.6比以前多的比例比例仔細看還多耶絕對仔細看3兆多耶你都是一個大富翁耶你現在一直喊窮報告委員這裡面包含整政府百分之十一的業務馬英九 陳水扁都不要實施那個整個業務都沒有推動了人家1兆多2兆多都實施得好好的你3兆多結果還在裝乞丐"},{"start":12847.558,"end":12863.464,"text":"署議長 你是不是都用書面答覆好不好是 好不好 最重要我剛講的最重要 抱歉抱歉最重要 對 我一句話就好最重要的不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多 帶給地方的你不能夠2900多億 砍了2600多億砍掉十分之九"},{"start":12868.322,"end":12888.387,"text":"然後這個影響的是地方很多的建設我剛剛講的然後一般性補助款你怎麼可以把它變成是審查這兩個趕快改回來 謝謝好 處理長 你的答覆就書面去答覆好了OK 謝謝三委員接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":12890.231,"end":12916.566,"text":"楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在謝一鳳委員 謝一鳳委員 謝一鳳委員不在何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何新淳委員不在黃宏威委員 黃宏威委員 黃宏威委員不在高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員不在接下來請洪孟凱委員質詢"},{"start":12919.206,"end":12920.486,"text":"好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳政府次長還有阮次長孟凱文委員好主計長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府 地方政府是一體的"},{"start":12948.937,"end":12975.427,"text":"地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法"},{"start":12978.228,"end":12992.895,"text":"2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億"},{"start":12994.076,"end":13008.183,"text":"八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下"},{"start":13009.352,"end":13025.978,"text":"之前有傳出說財政部有邀22個縣市來政府討論財化法院版的一個部分開會的一個狀況各縣市的反應如何是 我們過去就針對財化法那麼有開過四次會那昨天又開了一次會"},{"start":13026.718,"end":13044.968,"text":"沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障"},{"start":13046.149,"end":13070.164,"text":"那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題"},{"start":13071.084,"end":13084.96,"text":"因為權重的問題這才是關鍵會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長"},{"start":13086.201,"end":13108.894,"text":"還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走"},{"start":13109.674,"end":13120.341,"text":"因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本 是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那部分那一部分 那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題"},{"start":13140.074,"end":13167.27,"text":"因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右"},{"start":13168.01,"end":13189.178,"text":"因為我知道我們的昭緯還是要配合行政院的政策是 但是因為畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究底我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究底院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論是"},{"start":13191.019,"end":13210.669,"text":"這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在炒你相關的這個修正草案所以"},{"start":13211.089,"end":13234.178,"text":"好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法"},{"start":13234.278,"end":13249.374,"text":"你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近"},{"start":13249.394,"end":13274.223,"text":"因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金保險"},{"start":13278.525,"end":13302.475,"text":"我想請教院版的這一個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金"},{"start":13302.995,"end":13319.466,"text":"好 我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓它做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用"},{"start":13320.546,"end":13340.75,"text":"到什麼國民年金到什麼造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝 謝謝次長 主席長辛苦 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟愷委員OK 謝謝"},{"start":13344.551,"end":13357.819,"text":"接下來我們請林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在今日發言登記的委員均已詢答完畢臨時提案一案因為我們在場委員不足我們不處理"},{"start":13373.14,"end":13389.267,"text":"本次會議做如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者依其所定"},{"start":13390.387,"end":13414.235,"text":"委員陳玉珍 楊瓊英 高金素梅 謝一鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢疑並列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理我們今天的會議到此為止本期宣布散會"}]}},{"id":"16977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16977","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8a46bec1ad1976d3b46a34199584822b0aa126c40303dc271de0f2960ab3b0095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-22T08:37:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-22T12:13:00+08:00","duration":12919,"影片長度":"03:35:19","委員發言時間":"08:37:41 - 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排除同一個檢察官曾於再審或非常上訴前的訴訟程序執行職務的迴避是由"},{"start":1552.597,"end":1574.208,"text":"第三呢明定律師或者是辯護人與被告或犯罪嫌疑人秘密溝通的記錄或因此所身的文件資料不得作為證據而扣押那以保障憲法第15條律師的工作權還有是憲法16條被告的訴訟權第二點呢"},{"start":1575.697,"end":1600.913,"text":"因应113年宪判第8号相关的刑事诉讼法部分条文修正草案那为了完善故意杀人案件的刑事程序符合宪法最严密的正当法律程序要求修正刑事诉讼法相关规定以保障人民生命权另外强化诉讼参与人的被害人程序地位"},{"start":1602.521,"end":1624.838,"text":"並且因應修法現況及社會安全的需求增修預防性羈押適用範圍的規定第三點有關少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案其中主要分為兩個部分第一個是處遇的多元化"},{"start":1625.518,"end":1654.127,"text":"那位立少年法院呢可以适时的依少年需求弹性调整保护处域呢增订少年法院可以是少年需求转换保护管束安置辅导等的保护处分机制第二个是关于前案图销部分少年前案的处分或者是刑职执行完毕或赦免后三年内呢没有再受他案的处分或刑职宣告"},{"start":1654.907,"end":1680.518,"text":"其前案才視為未曾受該宣告等的相關規定第四點是因應113年憲判自第八號法院組織法第105條修正草案為了符合113年憲判自第八號關於科除死刑何怡婷評議的判決意旨修正法院組織法第105條的規定"},{"start":1682.859,"end":1709.337,"text":"那第五個呢是有關於法院組織法第三七條之一第三十七條之二第三十九條及第十一條附表第三三條附表修正草案那這是關於台灣高等法院增設司法事務官及記證還有明定高等法院為第一類法院調整地方法院的原額表那使法院目前的人力運用現況跟原額表契合"},{"start":1713.36,"end":1728.335,"text":"調動成本以上所提的草案部分呢少年事件法處理部處理部分條文修正草案已經含送貴院審議那敬請各位委員不吝指教謝謝好謝謝王副秘書長的報告"},{"start":1736.687,"end":1757.942,"text":"並請列入公報記錄接下來我們就開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時候延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長發言時間是到上午10點30分截止我們接下來就先請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":1764.065,"end":1770.793,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是麻煩有請副秘書長好 請王副秘書長那個"},{"start":1785.12,"end":1810.339,"text":"好 副院長找我今天看到司法院114年立法計畫的報告看了 老實說因為非常單薄我不曉得要看什麼所以呢我就自己去找了司法院115年度施政計畫綱要這個施政計畫綱要是司法院院會通過的嗎"},{"start":1814.446,"end":1842.537,"text":"是不是司法院院會通過的是司法院會議什麼時候通過的什麼時候通過的這個還要再查對啊您是副秘書長今年司法院的會議開了幾次司法院會議開了幾次您是副秘書長是"},{"start":1843.959,"end":1858.823,"text":"今年司法院會議開了幾次那個委員抱歉因為事務繁多所以沒辦法詳細沒有關係我直接跟你講四次等一下我們會進入這個這個是不是通過司法院會議的施政綱應該有在那個院會中討論有在院會中討論嘛討論多久你還記得司法院會議你有沒有開有討論多久"},{"start":1874.673,"end":1898.96,"text":"因為先前都有很多的會前會是逐一討論是沒有關係總共累計討論了多久沒關係我知道你們作業很嚴謹有會前會然後到會議那我的問題很簡單這個到司法院會議不管是會議當下還是所有的會前會加起來討論了多久"},{"start":1905.885,"end":1929.459,"text":"這是司法院115年施政計劃綱要這很重要啊代表了司法院未來一年要幹什麼事嘛我要了解司法院未來一年要幹什麼事我除了看司法院115年施政計劃綱要以外我找不到更權威的文獻可以讓我理解這件事啊所以請問這個115年施政計劃綱要"},{"start":1936.434,"end":1954.84,"text":"討論了多久 多少人參與報告委員 現在手上的資料這是在114年8月1號的時候司法院第215次會議通過的討論了多久當天是有半天的行程你剛不是說還有會前會總共討論了多久 你不知道"},{"start":1963.397,"end":1991.733,"text":"妳不知道我沒有辦法去詳細把每次那個會議所有的時間加總沒有關係妳大概跟我講一個時間嘛討論了兩個小時三十分鐘兩天都可以啊我沒有要幾分幾秒有討論到一天嗎整個加起來在院會的時候沒有討論到一天沒有啦我剛剛就講了還有前面會前會嘛對啊我讓妳全部加起來加起來有一天嗎"},{"start":1995.939,"end":2012.562,"text":"有沒有各廳處的會前會由秘書處主辦的應該是有半天的時間所以加起來有半天的時間第二個問題這本是誰寫的上面壓的是我們的司法院第215次會議通過114年8月1號司法院第215次會議通過秘書處會診的"},{"start":2022.778,"end":2029.308,"text":"祕書處會診嘛 會診完了以後到院會是行李如一 照案通過還是真的有討論"},{"start":2033.393,"end":2061.473,"text":"因為這個會議資料事先有發給大家所以說就那個有問題的部分就是大家有意見的部分提出來討論所以我現在的問題沒有關係你回去查會議紀錄依照司法院的會議規則司法院的會議規則裡面要詳細哪些事項應該很清楚嘛那我現在的問題來了為什麼在司法院的網站上針對司法院會議每一次的會議紀錄"},{"start":2063.479,"end":2092.548,"text":"你們根本沒有公開啊有公開嗎 沒有立法院的院會什麼時候開始什麼時候結束發生了什麼事很清楚行政院院的院會也是一樣考試院的院會也是一樣現在最讓我看不懂的是司法院司法院的會議記錄是密件嗎是嗎這不是密件那可不可以公開"},{"start":2095.123,"end":2113.694,"text":"現在你們沒有公開啊司法院的施政計畫不是要公開透明讓人民了解司法更接近司法為什麼不公開 可以公開嗎委員這個部分我們回去那個研議那就是需要研議多久 再研議兩年"},{"start":2116.417,"end":2143.459,"text":"需要研議多久那個 私密件你就把它遮起來嘛現在我搞不懂啊不管我國是三權還是五權的國家司法權很重要希望公開透明 了解司法院在幹嘛結果為了要了解司法院在幹嘛我老實說 我還蠻辛苦的我還自己要去找這個來看看完了以後看是哪一次會議通過的"},{"start":2144.81,"end":2170.569,"text":"結果那一次會議根本沒有公開會議記錄就一個重要事項說通過這個東西來來來來來我直接秀給你看啊我來質詢以前我一定有準備來看一下這個是你們司法院就有一個216次院會重要決議然後呢就簡單幾行字來看一下司法院會議規則司法院會議規則裡面要記載哪些事項"},{"start":2175.285,"end":2196.574,"text":"通通都有寫第二個我就看不懂司法院會議規則以每個月舉行一次為原則結果過去三年每年舉辦四次所以司法院會議看起來不是很重要嘛你們自己寫的會議規則每個月要舉行一次為原則必要時還可以加開"},{"start":2198.123,"end":2206.516,"text":"結果我看到的是一年開四次然後公告的內容非常的頻繁讓我沒有辦法了解司法院到底在幹嘛"},{"start":2208.854,"end":2234.241,"text":"可以公開嗎沒有關係你們要不要公開到網站上面你們自己回去研議既然你說不是密件的話過去三年不好意思請你聽我的問題可以嗎過去三年每一次司法院每一次會議的會議記錄會後送到我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":2235.765,"end":2262.316,"text":"你要不要在網站上公開你們回去研議但你剛說不是密件過去三年每一年只開四次會議規則說每個月要開一次結果你們整年只開四次沒有關係這以後我們審預算再來處理司法院自己帶頭違法但沒有關係過去三年每一次院會的會議記錄會後送到我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":2264.073,"end":2287.783,"text":"報告委員 那個目前我們剛查的結果是把那個就是通過的這個內容我是套嘛所以會後把會議記錄送給我可以嗎詳細那個會議記錄內容的話那我們會依規定來處理就是依相關的我們中華民國相關的那個法律規定來處理哪一些可以對外公開的沒有關係沒有關係你們回去自己看"},{"start":2289.144,"end":2318.096,"text":"你們就依照中華民國的法律相關法律處理我第一次聽到法律人講話這麼含糊籠統的沒有關係你回去慢慢研議第二個我還是要跟你講這個115年施政計畫綱要我看完了以後我覺得似曾相識我為什麼覺得似曾相識因為114年度施政計畫綱要我之前也拜讀過"},{"start":2320.124,"end":2348.576,"text":"我一直看奇怪怎麼跟我上一份看的施政計畫綱要我似曾相識我想說不對啊這份報告我看過啊但我明明是最新download下來看的怎麼會似曾相識結果我去比對我比對114年度跟115年度施政計畫綱要裡面是大量的抄襲抄襲這個字司法院可能不喜歡用"},{"start":2349.889,"end":2368.352,"text":"大量的複製貼上每一個國字標點符號段落一模一樣我判為官職我們的司法院院會一年開四次 很重要"},{"start":2369.619,"end":2394.478,"text":"我想說重要的事情都要提到上面去討論結果討論出來的結果是什麼討論出來的結果是我們竟然在討論一份大量抄襲的文件你們這些與會的官員去開司法院院會的官員都不會覺得丟臉嗎丟人現眼一堆大官"},{"start":2395.751,"end":2423.764,"text":"坐在那邊討論一個大量抄襲的文件是我們新的施政計畫綱要嘆為觀止啊是不是可以請司法院回去整理115年施政計畫綱要跟114年施政計畫綱要用學術比對軟體下去比對現在軟體很多啦抄襲的比例有多少 可以做這件事嗎"},{"start":2424.98,"end":2445.92,"text":"那個報告委員有關於那個司法事項事實上他的施政是有延續性的我瞭解我瞭解這個都有延續性但是我看完了以後我讀不到延續性我讀到的是停滯性完全停止啊完全停止才會用一模一樣的字句嘛"},{"start":2447.657,"end":2473.095,"text":"我看不到延續性啊 我知道啊每個部會都說有延續性啊其他的部會最起碼還會把數字改一改但我看到的不是延續性 是停滯性Stop因為文字一模一樣段落一模一樣 標點一模一樣是整段一模一樣 整頁一模一樣一頁又一頁一模一樣"},{"start":2475.551,"end":2500.597,"text":"這種東西拿到司法院會議去討論四個字 令人汗顏再加四個字 丟人現眼回去比對跟我講有多少是複製貼上可以嗎我們會遵照辦理好 會遵照辦理 需要多久的時間很快啦 因為重複的比例太高了啦甚至電腦沃德黨的底稿拿出來"},{"start":2502.233,"end":2526.147,"text":"看開院會以前花了多久的時間改了幾個字答案就出來了啦 非常迅速啊但我今天啊 最嚴肅的要問什麼為了落實撕改國事會議的決議我們推動法院組織法的修正民進黨不做 在野黨來做今年法院組織法修法落實撕改決議"},{"start":2527.506,"end":2555.655,"text":"我知道針對這個修法不管是司法院還是法務部從頭反對到底你們反對有你們的立場我尊重你們反對的立場但是立法權在國會國會通過了法院組織法三讀的修正我們從社會上面所聽到的聲音是人民鼓掌叫好這是一個高民意支持的修法"},{"start":2557.145,"end":2582.168,"text":"我們給你們三個月的時間去做準備我們也給你們彈性的空間有一些特殊的案子不適合LiveDelay Live也沒有關係結果呢授權你們去訂執法訂出來變成什麼要宣誓裁判宣誓或公告以後才播出網路上面罵成一片"},{"start":2585.84,"end":2606.199,"text":"說我們的司法院在搞什麼法庭直播變成法庭錄影帶講這樣還客氣啊應該是紀錄片法庭直播變成法庭紀錄片立法者當初立法的意旨司法院很清楚但你們在制定這個辦法的時候"},{"start":2608.905,"end":2622.051,"text":"全在我司法院手上我就是要這樣訂啊沒關係我現在具體的問題法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法請問這個辦法有沒有在司法院會議通過這個辦法沒有在那個院會通過好那這個辦法是誰決定要寫成這個樣子的院長嗎代理院長嗎"},{"start":2639.66,"end":2664.611,"text":"司法院有關於政策形成有一定的這不是政策形成這個是依照法律授權給你們所訂定的辦法現在我非常的好奇啊司法院裡面授權給你們訂定的辦法是透過什麼樣的程序形成的因為如果在行政院行政院有一定的作業程序"},{"start":2665.896,"end":2689.379,"text":"司法院我看了半天我知道沒有經過司法院會議但我認為這是非常重要的事情應該要經過司法院會議我把你們重要決議事項看完了以後就沒有這一項我開始進一步思考當立法者授權司法院去定辦法的時候請問司法院是誰在定辦法我為什麼要講這件事情"},{"start":2690.8,"end":2718.948,"text":"這不是司法審判事務喔這不是個案裁判喔這沒有涉及到什麼審判核心的問題喔它涉及到的是立法院通過的法律授權司法院去定辦法司法院膽子好大敢踐踏立法者三讀通過的法律定出這種挖空法律的辦法因此接下來就有政治責任的追究"},{"start":2720.134,"end":2743.135,"text":"我一定會追究這件事情的政治責任要追究政治責任我最起碼要知道這個辦法是誰定的嘛所以是代理院長決定這樣定的嗎經過什麼樣的決策程序讓司法院去公告了這樣子的辦法請說明幾個兩三個官員躲在辦公室"},{"start":2744.505,"end":2770.658,"text":"我好討厭法庭直播啊怎麼可以法庭直播我們司法院反對國會太傲慢了不顧司法院的反對 三讀通過沒關係我們在辦法裡面上下其手動手腳掏空國會三讀通過的法律意旨權力在我們手上國會拿我們沒皮條啊"},{"start":2772.726,"end":2796.761,"text":"這個法制作業程序不用講細節的作業程序我要知道的是決策程序由誰送給誰誰決定這樣訂的來請說明那個報告委員齁那個說掏空這個程序這我們沒有關係啦我現在是問你們這個辦法怎麼訂出來的是不是掏空你自己去看網路上面的討論啦"},{"start":2798.208,"end":2822.646,"text":"你自己去看台灣人民的反應啊如果沒有這樣的事我這樣講我在國會IVOD全程直播我黃國昌受到譴責所有的人都聲援你們司法院說司法院訂得好啊這個辦法訂得太漂亮了我們大家都支持啊在野黨立委無理取鬧啊"},{"start":2823.954,"end":2851.992,"text":"受到民意檢驗在責任政治下面要承擔後果的人是我但是我們現在要知道司法院誰該為這件事情承擔後果我問的是這個辦法公告以前請問是由誰決定的由謝明陽決定的嗎司法院相關的那個執法就是都不會是一個人決定的對 所以哪些人參與"},{"start":2853.857,"end":2878.983,"text":"會先有那個幕僚廳先做初步的那個司法行政廳嘛然後之後是相關的那個業務廳大家一起那個開會所以就是各個廳的廳長嘛就是會業務廳好會完業務廳以後呢然後之後在那個上層那個網上網上那個報對報給誰報給你嘛報給我然後在然後你看了以後也覺得很滿意嘛所以你在網上報給代理院長是嗎是"},{"start":2880.748,"end":2889.614,"text":"好主席站起來了主席站起來了今天司法院訂這樣子的辦法我們絕對不接受"},{"start":2892.148,"end":2917.769,"text":"我再講一次這不涉及到個案審判這不是審判核心事項這是依照立法院的授權請司法院去定的辦法定出這樣子的辦法有多少立委會覺得說沒有掏空當初三讀通過的法律我不知道但我個人這樣認為台灣民眾黨立法院黨團這樣認為這件事情責任的追究我們會嚴肅的追究第二個"},{"start":2918.891,"end":2922.672,"text":"我也公開講一定反映在今年的預算審查之上好 謝謝黃國昌委員不過剛剛聽了黃委員對於司法院的行政作業程序我在這邊要提醒依照政府資訊公開法第七條的規定你們的施政計畫會議記錄這些都要公開"},{"start":2941.418,"end":2957.446,"text":"今天我聽了黃國昌委員的質詢也讓我感到非常驚訝這個大連一般的小學然後大學各個系所所有的會議紀錄都要公開可是為什麼司法院的會議紀錄沒有公開這麼重要的施政紀要施政綱要 施政計畫也沒有公開"},{"start":2958.546,"end":2978.597,"text":"這個是很不對的一個做法那我希望秘書長回去之後要立刻把這些重要政府資訊公開法裡面所要求的這些資訊都要公開好不好我想就是人民要親近司法要了解司法這可以做到吧這應該不需要等到什麼幾個月之後應該很快就可以做到"},{"start":2981.567,"end":2989.791,"text":"你們在研議辦理的話就是違法了OK 好 那就小心請回那接下來我們請羅志強委員發言有請王副秘書長好 有請秘書長委員早安副秘書長好"},{"start":3011.653,"end":3038.568,"text":"我剛剛聽妳的報告裡面 妳也特別強調憲法第八號判決嘛 對不對要搭配所謂的調高死刑門檻我們司法院的相應的作為嘛 對不對我想要請教妳喔 妳有聽過2022年的台版柬埔案嗎台版柬埔災案有聽過嗎我想請教祖賢蘭道這些人他總共關押綁架了多少人"},{"start":3040,"end":3066.341,"text":"报告委员那个案情我没有详细研究61个人是61个人副秘书长我想请教就您在这个司法界这么多年的实务经验您有没有看到哪一个案子可以绑架61个人的这个算是那个案情严重的案件应该从来没有过吧被绑被关最多人的一个刑事案件至少在你职业生涯里面应该没见过吧是"},{"start":3067.489,"end":3095.209,"text":"那你知道裡面多少人被他們殺掉死了多少人死了多少人你知道嗎我告訴你剛開始以為死三個人啦他們這些人被收身搶劫塞上毛巾上手銬腳綁束帶關進三平大的房間毒打電擊未讀一人跳樓輕生一人休克死亡一人被未讀致死死了三個人嘛對不對"},{"start":3097.489,"end":3125.302,"text":"我告訴你不只今年8月發現還有一個也被他們打死只是抓進去沒幾分鐘就被打死了 拖出去了丟了今年8月才找到到底是不是關61個人你知道嗎可能不是耶是不是殺4個人你知道嗎可能不是耶可不可惡 惡行重不重大請問副秘書長"},{"start":3129.91,"end":3154.563,"text":"惨绝人寰惨绝人寰来我想请教一下那你知道最后被判什么祖贤被判什么刑依这上面那个记录那个祖贤王玉洁是26年那其他那个三人是无期徒刑是啊我直接告诉傅秘书长"},{"start":3159.575,"end":3183.122,"text":"關61個殺死4個人極盡虐待虐殺就是無期徒刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑你剛都講了你也沒聽過關61個人這麼嚴重的事情過不罰所得多少錢你知道嗎查出來的沒查出來不講4億元"},{"start":3188.196,"end":3209.481,"text":"關61個 殺4個人不罰所得4億元結果是無期徒刑啊我在上一個質詢我們的法務部長他還跟我講台灣沒有實質廢死啊是啦 還是有判死刑的啦還是有判死刑的啦但是你知道判死刑的比例變高還變低請問副秘書長變高還變低應該很清楚吧"},{"start":3217.339,"end":3235.987,"text":"沒關係 我告訴你 我跟你講過去20年 平均150位殺人犯大概判死刑的比例大概是2%2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死到2015年2016年民進黨執政之後"},{"start":3244.673,"end":3270.516,"text":"你知道平均有多少人三審判死嗎每年多少人三審判死嗎平均0.33人0.33人每年三審判死人數減少九成而且抱歉大法官的憲判八號出來之後一個都沒有三審的一個都沒有沒錯吧"},{"start":3272.145,"end":3291.621,"text":"可能還有訴訟時間 因為才去年的事情嘛 對不對我直接跟你講會更低 比0.33還低 你相不相信因為大法官已經加了八道經索大幅提高判處死刑的門檻這不叫實質廢死 什麼叫實質廢死這就是實質廢死"},{"start":3297.403,"end":3325.551,"text":"這就是今天司法院交出來的最偉大的成績單大法院交出最偉大的成績單實質廢死我對那台版柬埔寨在案我看了就是看一次痛心一次我尤其記得印象很深刻裡面的那位母親她在被虐殺之前臨死之前的遺言是請她同樣被關的受害人說她可能沒辦法活著出去如果她能活著出去"},{"start":3326.638,"end":3329.639,"text":"拜託他告訴他兒子媽媽對不起你沒辦法陪你到最後你聽了心不心酸然後被後來獲救這幾十個人他們被受訪的時候他們說他們真的以為他們沒辦法活著走出來要不是被破獲可能全部要死在裡面無期徒刑沒有一個判死"},{"start":3358.484,"end":3386.304,"text":"現在民進黨還跟我們拗沒有實質Face這不叫實質Face請問什麼叫實質Face我再請教副秘書長詐騙手法不斷翻新已經變成我們今天國恥了也是全民最大的威脅沒錯吧副秘書長詐欺案件確實一直在成長"},{"start":3388.459,"end":3406.173,"text":"很多人甚至家庭失和甚至自責輕生還有一個就是我剛前面講的還有被抓起來凌虐打死的都有現在台灣最大的一個安全的威脅就是詐騙集團那麼我們政府在2014年定了"},{"start":3414.073,"end":3420.862,"text":"339條知事的加重詐欺罪科署1年到7年有期徒刑並科100萬元以下罰金而且處罰未稅犯 對不對"},{"start":3423.137,"end":3449.605,"text":"然後2023年在修正刑法的部分條文然後將身為詐騙也納入所謂的加重詐欺罪那2024年完成立法的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例也加重刑責對詐騙集團最重可判處12年有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金立法院是通過修法希望加重處罰"},{"start":3451.232,"end":3468.773,"text":"罪行來抑制詐騙的橫行那檢察官起訴時也多半有考量加重刑事的室友給予適當的量刑但是我想請教一下刑法修正後這麼多刑法修正後我們的法院對詐騙集團的判刑有加重嗎"},{"start":3469.795,"end":3485.659,"text":"那個報委員我們現在那個手上那個數字這個確實法院就加重詐欺的量刑有加重那個趨勢從那個判超過我問一個判達三年以上的比例大概多少三年以上的"},{"start":3487.588,"end":3505.036,"text":"我告诉你各级法院2019到2024年对于适用加重诈欺罪的80万罪次判决中三年以上有期徒刑者是1637罪次占总件数的千分之二"},{"start":3507.987,"end":3527.015,"text":"全台一年詐騙財損超過千億但是只有零點二 千分之二千分之二 一千個詐騙犯中可能只有兩個被判刑超過三年我們審計部報告就指出雖然政府加重修法 加重詐騙刑度"},{"start":3528.444,"end":3537.867,"text":"那麼外界一直在對於法院判刑過低的問題有一些很大的疑慮那我想請教今天司法院怎麼去看這件事情"},{"start":3539.468,"end":3565.155,"text":"報告委員就是說我們從數字上來看的話就是這幾年確實那個量刑已經有加重的趨勢了那從那個數字上就是為什麼呈現這麼低當然就是說因為他會起訴的詐欺他是一個大集團那大部分被抓到的事實上都是在階層分工中比較低階的就是像這種車手就是比較低階的角色"},{"start":3565.595,"end":3581.642,"text":"我要这样讲实际上2019到2023年8月间台湾有超过58000名通缉犯未归案有8000多人有出境记录还有1637人是涉及诈骗案件潜逃国外"},{"start":3582.242,"end":3611.562,"text":"那為了要補這個治安漏洞跟防止詐欺犯的潛逃我在去年就提出了刑法跟刑事訴訟法的修正案來徵定棄保潛逃罪以及賦予法院可以主動通知主管機關協助註銷被告護照旅行文件那另外刑法的徵定的這個棄保潛逃罪在今年5月三讀通過那刑事訴訟法的162條之二的修正也在上週五完成了三讀"},{"start":3612.402,"end":3638.93,"text":"那这两项实际上都是今天立法院努力想要去防堵诈骗的一个努力的过程跟结果但我这边还是要拜托为什么今天从台版柬埔寨案开始讲起因为真的法院当然秘书长你是行政幕僚法官你也管不了可是今天全台湾人民对于诈骗那种所谓的痛恨的程度"},{"start":3639.963,"end":3663.811,"text":"我真的在這邊呼籲我們的法官們好好去想一想我們在台灣很多的一些不管是司法跟所謂的我們的一些刑事的一個法律都是過度保障加害人那造成被害人惶惶不可終日好好安居樂業都不可得這是我給司法院的一個期許以上 謝謝謝謝指教"},{"start":3666.567,"end":3671.069,"text":"好謝謝羅委員那麼我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言麻煩那個司法院好有請王復祕"},{"start":3689.986,"end":3703.851,"text":"複密早安我今天主要提的東西大概兩個區塊第一個區塊當然是有關抗告的部分我想我現在講一個就是我們目前已審到法案之後有一個無限抗告的問題"},{"start":3706.192,"end":3721.177,"text":"今天檢察官我先請教蜂蜜一個最基本的一個問題檢察官案子起訴已審到法院之後那對於可不可以申請羈押起訴已審到法院以後檢察官可不可以申請羈押我們目前看法是認為請說是不可以的"},{"start":3731.201,"end":3749.172,"text":"從結論上來說我想96台抗593已經寫得非常清楚就是檢察官起訴到法院之後其實他是不可能申請羈押但是現在實務上面一個很荒謬的事情就是他不可以申請羈押但是他卻可以抗告這是一個目前實務上的一個問題"},{"start":3750.293,"end":3772.732,"text":"那我講這幾天就是法官論壇裡面這幾人也都吵起來了就提到就是檢察官起訴之後到底可不可以再讓檢察官對於法官要不要押人這個事情一直不停的抗告當然我們現在看到實務上面確實有一個案子就是法官在檢察官已經審到法院之後法官想要押人但檢察官不停的抗告"},{"start":3774.213,"end":3790.309,"text":"这个东西在论坛论坛还有人特别写提醒其他的法官同事不应厌恶这个人而判刑狱就是白话文说啦你不可以因为你讨厌这个人然后你就对他加以判刑这个逻辑是对的吧 傅敏是"},{"start":3792.079,"end":3807.499,"text":"但是目前我們看到一個狀況就是說檢察官起訴到法院以後照理說卷證人都已審到法院去了但是對於法官 陳真法官到底要不要押人檢察官卻可以有無限的不同的意見我們都知道"},{"start":3809.091,"end":3838.246,"text":"我们羁押主要在法院审理的时候分两大类第一个是我们案子送到检察官侦查的时候的申请羁押第二种是已审到法官之后法官要不要押当然这两个状况法官会下裁定那第一种的话因为是在侦查中基本上我以前申请那个羁押如果万一有遇到我几乎很少遇到法官会不裁押但是如果法官不裁押我一定跟他抗告到底因为这个案子是我们在侦查中"},{"start":3838.726,"end":3866.313,"text":"可是我起訴以後到法院法官押不押我從來不會有意見但是我如果認為法官應該繼續押我一定會在我的起訴書或者是起訴的時候或者是卷證資料裡面把理由詳列得非常的清楚可以建議法官押但是如果法官不押我從來沒有為這個事情抗告過因為我很清楚以審到法院應該就是法官的權限那這時候怎麼會讓檢察官去干涉"},{"start":3867.393,"end":3895.131,"text":"法官要不要繼續押人但是現行的制度會有這個問題就是好像檢察官如果覺得法官不該押而該押結果法官沒押他就不停的抗告那當然我以前也有遇過一個就是起訴之後但是這個人他另案還有涉嫌案子所以我們是用另案去申請羈押而不是就原本起訴的那個案子去抗告"},{"start":3896.812,"end":3925.487,"text":"因為我覺得現在不是那個包青天時代真審其實是分離的我們還是要尊重法院的審理所以到院方之後應該是由法官來處理好 那我現在請教你一個問題就是法官他是不是要立一個中立的公平的法院來審判所以審判的時候必須依據的是證據請問一下他依據的是證據還是依據外來的壓力或政治的顏色"},{"start":3926.516,"end":3944.282,"text":"我當然是依審判所呈現的這些證據 事證是 我也百分之百支持這個論點那法官是獨立審判還是接續檢察官的偵查法官在審判中有他的任務"},{"start":3945.586,"end":3962.997,"text":"对 但是不是接续侦查不是帮检察官插屁股 对不对他是依据他的独立审判的时候认为如果他认为有必要查他会自己依据自己的想法去查而不是接力检察官的侦查作为夫妻这样对不对 是好 那我请问一下那现在"},{"start":3966.248,"end":3992.358,"text":"貴院對於檢方起訴疑審到法院之後可以一直不停的抗告請問一下貴院對這個抗告的這個權利你們認為有沒有存在的必要委員所說的只有包含兩個一個就是說檢 疑審之後法院所做的那個裁定檢察官還能不能抗告第二個是說可不可以無限抗告OK 沒關係這兩個你都回答"},{"start":3993.372,"end":4015.843,"text":"有關於可不可以抗告因為依照我們目前審判的結構就是檢察官跟被告跟辯護人他們都還是當事人所以說他們可以就法院所做的裁定提起抗告這一點我想在我們現行法體制上是這樣子第二個至於說在檢察官他如果說"},{"start":4017.123,"end":4035.721,"text":"法院做裁定之後被撤銷之後然後再重新做裁定檢察官可不可以不限次做抗告我想這個政策上是可以討論的就是說像這種程序中的事項要不要及早讓他確定那就是限制不管是檢察官有可能是其他另一兆"},{"start":4036.221,"end":4061.802,"text":"的這個抗告權我想這都是可以討論的那我簡單的講就是說我自己主張修法我想就這個部分要加以修法就是審判中檢察官不得再對羈押法院的那個羈押或交保的裁定去提抗告那因為我還是認為真審要分離這第一個第二個我希望回到法官獨立審判如果案子在偵查中我絕對支持檢察官對於法官的裁定能夠加以抗告"},{"start":4062.142,"end":4088.682,"text":"但是如果已經疑審到法院的時候我個人認為說這時候應該是要由法官他自己去承擔所有的責任那檢察官在做的他是提醒法官嘛我資料 我資料給你我甚至可以去力挺你有什麼問題我都可以跟你講或者是我在捐贈資料那邊寫清楚建議繼續羈押的理由把它羅列清楚但是當我們羅列完畢之後應該是尊重法官的獨立審判權那我不知道目前司法院支不支持我這個想法"},{"start":4090.669,"end":4098.076,"text":"有關於限制檢察官完全的抗告權這個部分我想是可以再研議的"},{"start":4099.269,"end":4120.53,"text":"你目前認為在研議是因為我最近看到一個董保誠老師他也是寫了一篇文章也是提到說他也是想法也是跟我現在目前的想法是類似的他覺得說已審到法院之後其實不應該再給檢察官就看到了權限那當然我們從比較法的概念你也可以請貴院稍微參考一下其他國家是怎麼做"},{"start":4121.371,"end":4145.992,"text":"好不好 這個部分你們可以做到嗎可以 演繹的部分可以就像我們剛剛講到的那個法官論壇上面寫的那些東西其實你不能因為你討厭這個人你應該就要給他刑罰而且法官其實他應該把時間花在獨立審判上面而不是花在這個永無限制來來回回一下高院一下地院等等的這些問題上面"},{"start":4147.453,"end":4171.074,"text":"還有一個我覺得也是要讓國人知道的重點是檢察官在偵查中申請羈押那個裁定的法官是輪值的法官但是他起訴一審到法院通常就是由陳審的法官這兩個東西不一樣在偵查中申請羈押的下裁定的法官他是輪值的他不是將來這個案子的決定者"},{"start":4171.795,"end":4186.36,"text":"他不是通常是那个强制处分庭专庭的法官对 就是由他们来处理而不是未来实体审理的法官但是以审的状况就不一样以审的状况就会有"},{"start":4187.04,"end":4212.165,"text":"那个审理的那个法官所以当我一审到法院去之后裁羁押与否是由承办的法官自己来做的时候其实那个是他的案子那个跟我们在侦查中申请羁押强制处分庭或者是轮值法官由他们来裁定羁押与否完全不一样因为一个人是在对将来他人的案子不一定会轮分到他嘛"},{"start":4212.685,"end":4238.345,"text":"对他人的案子来决定要不要押另外一个是对自己的案子来决定要不要押所以这两个东西在墙路上面我认为不能混为一谈复密这个部分也可以麻烦您了解那那个行政厅厅长你一定懂我在讲什么这个部分也要麻烦您能够跟司法院这么说因为我还是觉得司法院很常讲我们要尊重个案我们要尊重法官的独立审判权"},{"start":4238.985,"end":4261.824,"text":"但是今天 陳審的法官想要放掉這個人卻因為檢察官不停的來回來回來回這樣子的抗告那這不就剝奪了他自己獨立審判的這個權利嗎所以我今天在做的並不是站對於被告或站對在檢察官那兒而是我要維護一個獨立審判的權限我們不能讓說一些"},{"start":4262.985,"end":4291.151,"text":"檢察官會怎麼樣因為為什麼偵審要分離我覺得這個道理很簡單因為我以前在偵查的時候我那個心思的投入會讓我非常痛恨這個被告所以我們今天在判決的時候交給一個公正的第三人去判我想這個是現代司法制度偵審分離概念的原因早期包青天時代我自己偵查自己判所以每一個被告來我偵查完之後我都超級痛恨他但是檢方容易流於過度情緒投入到那個案子"},{"start":4291.691,"end":4318.789,"text":"會對被告非常的討厭那這時候在對被告上面可能沒有辦法再立一個很公正的立場這也是為什麼現在全世界的司法制度幾乎都走向偵審分離所以今天竟然是偵審分離的這個制度之下是不是我們起訴之後就是交給法官去獨立審判而不是起訴之後還讓檢察官有不停的抗告不停的抗告"},{"start":4319.99,"end":4327.506,"text":"這部分是不是請司法院這裡能夠好好的你們可不可以研議一下"},{"start":4328.923,"end":4348.999,"text":"是可以演繹這一部分我們會演繹那但是就是說這個論點可能同時也要考量到就是現在的審判結構是兩邊當事人的那我們限制檢察官的抗告權那對於被告他是不是如果說是他被裁定羈押的話他能不能抗告就是說你只限制一方"},{"start":4350.18,"end":4363.696,"text":"会有这样子的那个问题那所以我想我们这些整个问题我们都一起研议就所以你们要来研议我今天应该我今天这么说我提我的修法有我的法律上面理论依据那你提的有你的理论依据对不对"},{"start":4364.964,"end":4391.376,"text":"檢察官是代表國家行使刑罰權這個我們都很能夠理解但是這個東西羈押它畢竟它不等同於被告有罪所以我們對於羈押的人身自由的保障應該是最高因為很多案子羈押過到最後是判無罪那你無罪推定的概念之下我前面我既然說要求什麼東西要武器平等其實我跟你講當事人跟檢察官什麼時候武器平等過"},{"start":4392.799,"end":4406.329,"text":"如果你今天你要跟我講說是武器平等兩個人都在那裡都是當事人所以他們兩個武器要平等那我只能在那邊跟你說我們都是司法體系出來的檢方手上的武器跟當事人手上的武器有平等過嗎"},{"start":4407.606,"end":4436.283,"text":"我只问这个问题有平等过吗所以当这个状况下本来司法系统就要去横评对于当事人的保护以及对于那个贾官事实发现的这个保障这两个东西横评之下所以我刚刚有讲如果可以的话检察官应该在起诉的那个时间点罗列清楚建议法官继续羁押的条件都在里面写得清清楚楚的甚至说我要去力挺都可以"},{"start":4437.003,"end":4455.833,"text":"譬如說法官的羈押庭是不是可以傳喚檢察官來立庭然後當檢察官絕盡所能的告訴法官該押的理由以及當庭告訴法官該押的理由之後羈押與否的決定最終決定權應該是要尊重審審的那位法官我覺得這才是司法獨立是"},{"start":4457.114,"end":4484.99,"text":"武器從來沒有平等過檢察官可以動用所有的公部門的資源以及調閱所有的資料你我都清楚除了國安的資料檢察官比較不好調閱之外所有的資料都調得到但當事人沒有辦法尤其當事人很多時候被逼著要自證自己無罪這跟我國制度完全不符我國制度是無罪推定但是現在的制度幾乎是走向當事人要自證無罪媒體怎麼修理他的所以再麻煩治療院能夠研議"},{"start":4486.391,"end":4514.957,"text":"大概多久內可以給我最後是多久可以給我一個你們研議的結果三個月因為還要開諮詢會可能就是我們希望有多一些的那個意見加入我可以等你們我可以更完善我可以要求更嚴謹更完善三個月好那麻煩三個月內能夠把你們的那個研究結果給我一份好 謝謝 謝謝兩位好 那麻煩司法院依照委員的指示辦理好 謝謝"},{"start":4524.971,"end":4532.488,"text":"好 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 複密主席好 有請複密"},{"start":4535.395,"end":4557.76,"text":"傅敏 我之前其實跟黃委員一樣我們其實都拜讀了你們這次所提的司法院的立法計畫報告坦白說真的是內容挺空洞的我們只看到你們的標題但是根本看不出來你們實際上提了什麼樣的修法的內容我想這也是大家很關心的也是立法委員們很關心的事情"},{"start":4558.24,"end":4584.229,"text":"你们只有列了法案名称然后大致上的重点但实际上的条文的情况怎么样其实真的不知道而本期在这里很关心的议题就是你们现在为了配合因应大法官宪判之八号所提出的法院组织法第105条的修正草案内容你们到底修了什么你们的内容是什么可不可以把你们现在草案的条文很快的念一下"},{"start":4588.149,"end":4604.557,"text":"這個條文那個內容主要是那個一憲判八的那個意志就是在105條第一項就是原則上評議是過半數的意見決定之但是死刑的科處是全因全體一致決定時的為之也就是死刑的一致決定"},{"start":4605.017,"end":4625.372,"text":"第105條的第一項的後半段裡面加上但書的內容那是不是以後你們的立法計畫都可以把你們已經提出去的這個草案至少你都是院會通過了嘛你院會通過你都要還請立法院你當然要把相關的條文內容都要秀出來這樣方便我們立法委員們我們才可以看到"},{"start":4626.132,"end":4640.259,"text":"好不好不然我們都在那邊猜測說你們到底是怎麼修的那現在我本身要請教就是說因為呢這個接下來這種重要的死刑案件可能也都會交由國民法官處理那你們國民法官法有要配合一起修嗎"},{"start":4645.923,"end":4664.882,"text":"我們國民法官法原則上不修因為在現判的判決意旨裡面已經把國民法官案件什麼狀況之下可以判死刑的情形已經講得很清楚它還是屬於三分之二的多數決但是它屬於特別多數決其中有三個職業法官必須一致決這在現判理由已經說得很清楚但是在"},{"start":4666.443,"end":4685.13,"text":"宪判這裡面是講何義廷法官何義廷法官那麼國民法官的法庭他又不是何義廷他的何義廷是包含國民法官那法官他並不是只是指他那三個小group叫做何義廷我本席認為你的國民法官法如果說你們真的要配合宪判制8號的修正的話也應該要一定修這樣才比較清楚否則都是透過你們現在的解釋這是那個宪判判決裡面理由有特別寫到"},{"start":4694.494,"end":4709.331,"text":"在國民法官的死刑的科處的時候是一樣是三分之二的特別多數決但是其中要有三位職業法官要一致決那其他的國民法官六個國民法官同意就可以"},{"start":4709.673,"end":4736.677,"text":"那你們要不要就在上面寫說職業法官三個都要一致決對 如果說按照你們的邏輯的話憲判制8號理由書都寫你們何必修法都不用修法了 法院組織法也不用修啦對 本心認為說這個部分的話其實要更清楚對 當然就是說我是不贊成憲判制8號裡面的判決內容而且我認為憲法判決不見得會能夠拘束立法者的未來的提出的"},{"start":4737.738,"end":4757.989,"text":"這個相關的立法的法案所以本期在這邊也會再提出我自己認為比較合理的法案好 那接下來我要進入到另外一個議題我們知道其實這次這個馬太安溪的洪災事件然後造成花蓮光復鄉的災情非常的慘重那麼看起來之後一定會有蠻多的災民會提起"},{"start":4760.43,"end":4783.767,"text":"这个国家赔偿或者是这个也会追究相关的失职的官员的刑事责任那么据本席看到新闻上面所报现在这花林地检署事实上他已经启动了相关的调查那么但是呢在这里本席要强调的想要请教的一件事情就是说因为司法院是法律辅助法的主管机关"},{"start":4784.187,"end":4792.119,"text":"今天是法福基金會沒有在那你們認為像這樣的情況之下法福基金會是不是應該要主動的去協助這些災民然後幫助他們提起訴訟"},{"start":4797.386,"end":4822.726,"text":"好 謝謝委員垂詢我們可以在這裡做個說明我想那個法服就這個部分可以提供的那個作為有分兩個部分一個是諮詢還有一個是真正進入到那個輔助那那個諮詢的那個部分呢就我們了解法服現在已經完成了準備就是配合那個政府協助災民的計畫那可以提供那個法律諮詢那另外呢現在就是具體的在花蓮分會這個部分"},{"start":4824.467,"end":4849.213,"text":"現在只要災民的案件第一個時間都會把它優先排成排到優先的面對面的法律諮詢這是諮詢的部分第二個就是說在花蓮有很多原民本來就可以用原民專案來申請輔助此外 依照法覆規定像這種重大公益的案件"},{"start":4849.813,"end":4877.884,"text":"他只要通過董事會專案通過之後就不受審查之力可以優先輔助謝謝複密的解釋確實在法輔基金會的第五條裡面他們所謂的五四六專案在第五條第四項第六款裡面針對重大公益社會矚目重大煩雜的事件可以提供專案的法律協助法律輔助那麼法輔基金會有沒有主動的積極的趕快去成立專案"},{"start":4878.664,"end":4906.498,"text":"有 他們現在那個董事會已經成立嗎 已經啟動了嗎還是只是個案的受理而已他們因為依這個規定他們要經過那個董事會那他們現在在盤點預算就是會那個盤點完之後會進入這法福基金會要趕快啟動相關的專案因為過去其實法福基金會不是說沒有其他的這個相關的專案那麼根據本席的這邊的整理大概也有七八個這個因為一二三四"},{"start":4907.999,"end":4935.912,"text":"七個專案是成立這法律輔助的專案那麼當然這中間有個反課綱的專案我也覺得很奇怪這之後我還會再請法輔基金會再提供相關的資料給本席參考那他們的成立時間基本上都非常短而且非常的積極那本席希望這次法輔基金會也要在這件事情上面趕快處理因為災民的這個受損他們的請求賠償的這件事情是不能夠等待的"},{"start":4936.232,"end":4948.977,"text":"是的好 那接下來本席還要再繼續問的問題就是有關於國家賠償法因為看起來這次的花蓮災民應該是會提起國家賠償法但是我們知道其實現在國家賠償的性質"},{"start":4951.858,"end":4974.212,"text":"是不清楚的它到底是屬於公法上的請求權還是民事上的請求權其實到現在為止在法院的實問見解是認為這可能是屬於公法請求權但是在它整個訴訟程序上面又是適用民事訴訟程序那麼這個部分來說的話不曉得司法院對這個國家賠償法的議題有沒有什麼看法有沒有認為說其實站在這個受損"},{"start":4977.674,"end":4995.842,"text":"民眾的角度應該要很清楚的未來把國家賠償訴訟就直接化為是行政訴訟這樣的話一方面也可以免除被害的或是受害的民眾他們要繳交高額的民事訴訟的裁判費委員這個部分容我請廳長來回覆好"},{"start":5002.583,"end":5021.718,"text":"委員好 關於委員剛才垂詢的問題可能要分幾個層次來說明可以大聲一點嗎是 要分幾個層次來說明第一個就是說確實在學理上面國家賠償訴訟它是有關公權力行使的損害賠償但是因為當初國家賠償法在立法當時我們行政法院當時全國只有一座"},{"start":5022.879,"end":5041.415,"text":"所以後來當時的歷史演進考量民眾司法禁用權所以就讓民事庭的法院來審理國家賠償訴訟那因為國家賠償法是法務部主管他當時所有的規定都是准用民法跟民事訴訟法所以目前就是由民事法院來審理國家賠償訴訟這是第一個層次的問題"},{"start":5042.426,"end":5066.872,"text":"那第二個層次就是說因為本席的時間有限確實國家賠償法其實從民國69年來制定到現在已經超過40年了中間雖然108年有做一些修正但是本席認為說這個涉及到人民的請求權它的訴訟的問題非常的重要那本席這邊也要求司法院應該要跟法務部這裡好好的就國家賠償訴訟程序的議題去"},{"start":5071.233,"end":5093.442,"text":"進行一個溝通協調而且要站在人民的訴訟權益保障的這樣的一個立場上面去做適當的修法我覺得這是很重要還有一位在這裡也看到國家賠償法的它的公法請求權的時效非常短如果說它適用在行政訴訟的話"},{"start":5095.143,"end":5115.729,"text":"依照行政程序法的規定公法上的請求權它的時效至少都還有10年可是如果說是依照國家賠償法的請求權的時效是兩年間不行使就會消滅如果自損害發生時期超過5年的話也是會消滅所以它等於說大幅縮短了人民的請求權"},{"start":5117.029,"end":5131.536,"text":"的這個期間那麼這個部分其實對於受損害的人民他所遭受到的心理上還有財產上面的這些這些不利益我覺得是影響很大所以這邊也希望"},{"start":5132.496,"end":5161.13,"text":"司法院可以好好的去研析這個問題那麼能夠盡速的將國家賠償請求權它的定位以及它在訴訟上面應該要適用哪一個法律是最恰當的當然眼前看來現在行政法院在全國各地都有了至少就北中南都有這個行政法院那我想由行政法院來處理相關的問題應該也不是什麼大困難"},{"start":5161.71,"end":5188.564,"text":"好不好這個部分的話是不是可以請複密跟法務部這邊可以積極的研析那本席希望可以在下個會期的立法計畫裡面看到你們研析的結果可以嗎這個可能因為組織機關在法務部那我們會跟他們溝通提出還有本席在這邊最後還要再詢問的一個議題就是你們這次的立法計畫裡面我們有看到"},{"start":5189.95,"end":5204.506,"text":"司法院有一些法案提出來會嫌行政會嫌行政院譬如說你們第一個修《刑事訴訟法》17條26條134條之一的修正草案你們在去年就會嫌行政院行政院到現在是怎麼樣都沒處理嗎"},{"start":5206.687,"end":5220.718,"text":"這個現在進度了我請廳長說明一下現在進度了目前在行政院會前當中那也開了多次的諮詢會對 你們去年就已經送了是對不對 一直送然後已經一年了一整年 行政院有開了很多次的諮詢會議"},{"start":5224.721,"end":5241.693,"text":"我們在會選中他們還在做部分的一些討論不是你們修法的速度真的太慢了提案修法速度太慢我們提案已經提到行政院去會選了所以行政院很慢如果說行政院速度緩慢然後拖累了司法院我覺得司法院要去抗議不要忘記你們是憲法的重要的權力機關怎麼可以去容忍行政院這麼怠惰他們該提的法案而且他只是會選你們是會選他"},{"start":5252.621,"end":5263.896,"text":"那他應該要趕快積極的去處理他們也有開了好幾次政委也有組織了好幾次的會議那這個部分的話也請你們要趕快再去盯著行政院好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請王宏威委員"},{"start":5278.8,"end":5282.442,"text":"好 謝謝主席請向副秘書長委員早早 副秘書長早昨天有一個就是社會比較矚目的新聞就是很多位藝人他們涉及到就是去假造他的這個體檢的報告然後事實上是要逃兵所以做了閃兵"},{"start":5302.532,"end":5324.425,"text":"那昨天相關的新聞畫面一直不停的播送那可以看到就是這些知名的藝人包含這個陳柏林大人哥或者是像修杰凱等等好幾位的藝人那都是上銬然後到案那麼這昨天好像是一共是四個藝人被拘提到案"},{"start":5325.545,"end":5343.613,"text":"但是在這邊要討論一下就是當然 逃兵就是違反相關的法律而且他們自己也承認他們確實是找人去修改 去假造他們的病歷但是這一波其實不是第一波去偵辦這些藝人的閃兵"},{"start":5351.657,"end":5374.071,"text":"大概過去幾個月來分播有不同的藝人當然可能有一些因為昨天這一波因為藝人的名氣比較大所以引起社會比較高的關注我在這邊提出來的畫面就是昨天這幾位藝人都是上銬具體檔案甚至傳出其中有一個修杰凱他是在家裡面還有小孩"},{"start":5374.972,"end":5395.497,"text":"那傳出說他是在家中上銬然後小孩都很害怕但是另外一方面我在上面提出來的這個新聞畫面也是今年5月間其實就有一波藝人也是同樣的是辦同樣的案子也是閃兵也是假"},{"start":5396.877,"end":5400.899,"text":"就是假造相關的體檢報告這裡面包含陳大天 陳玲九 還有李全這個畫面就可以看得出來當時他們沒有上銬有的就這樣子很輕我想也不是輕鬆 心裡不會輕鬆可是在畫面上就不會像昨天大家看到的畫面很狼狽 就故意用外套把它遮起來"},{"start":5421.647,"end":5425.889,"text":"好 所以我想請教一下就是就我們在拘提相關的這個犯罪嫌疑人或者這個罪犯被告的相關的使用借據那當然這裡面有警察有檢察官當然有法院那我想請問一下副秘書長我們使用這個借據上銬到底有沒有一定的標準因為我在看這個同樣的一個案件"},{"start":5450.103,"end":5459.151,"text":"也同樣是藝人那只是也許他的名氣大或名氣小不一樣那當然可能這個以警察來講要看現場的狀況他會不會抗拒或者他會不會傷害會不會攻擊警察但是看起來這幾波都沒有這樣的狀況所以我想請問副秘書長我們是否有曾經針對使用這個借據來逮捕拘提"},{"start":5476.787,"end":5480.56,"text":"有沒有一個相關的一致性比較一致性的做法"},{"start":5481.516,"end":5509.727,"text":"那個首先向委員報告就是有關於這個使用借據的實施辦法它那個是由法務部所訂的對 我知道對 這是法務部所訂的那委員剛剛那個垂詢的那個相關案例都是在那個偵查那個階段就是在那個警察在那個逮捕那個人的時候的那個情況所以這個在你們法院也會使用借據啊以你們法院使用借據你們相關的標準是什麼呢法院部長有請處長"},{"start":5512.587,"end":5538.581,"text":"謝謝法院委員的詮詢有的法院使用借據也不能只有在法警的執行辦法裡面有要看當時的情形是否被告有沒有逃亡或是當時的狀況他可能有脫逃的情形是要來使用借據那原則上可是我現在看起來因為現在有很多一些知名案例在新聞影片上都播出來在法警的體檢的時候是一定要使用借據"},{"start":5539.232,"end":5560.726,"text":"因為他是從監所裡面提到所以你們現在在法院裡面法警的這個提審的時候提解的時候是一定使用借據的一定都要使用借據那在法院以內呢都是一定使用借據嗎對 什麼時候使用借據等他入庭之後要開始承受我們要把借據打開"},{"start":5562.548,"end":5576.782,"text":"所以在法院所以基本上在司法院裡面上不上考你們的標準是完全一致的嗎是一致的就是沒有例外沒有例外因為他是從看守所或者是監所裡面體檢出來的人犯我們一定上考"},{"start":5577.655,"end":5585.917,"text":"所以你們是完全沒有例外因為我覺得很多就是該辦的案子就去辦但是因為像這種是眾人矚目然後看到相關的就是畫面的時候那就有人提出為什麼同樣的案情那有人上銬有人沒有上銬我覺得這就是我們的這個執法的標準另外一件事這個當然也是法務部在修法但是"},{"start":5604.72,"end":5612.164,"text":"最近也得到很多社會大眾的相關的關切也就是違罪重罰我們最近有一些案例就是這個清潔員他把清潔隊隊員他把人家不要的電鍋轉送給一個老婦最後他就以貪污治罪條例來起訴他他現在正在跑法院"},{"start":5632.196,"end":5636.74,"text":"那過去也有比如警察就是像交警的部分也是受到上層的壓力或上層的要求然後把一個罰單他可能用比較輕的讓他罰錢罰得少一些"},{"start":5648.951,"end":5670.489,"text":"那錢都沒有拿到他自己的口袋他可能基於上層的人情的壓力那他本來就是比較重的但是他開罰單的時候他就開一個罰款金額比較少的然後因此也觸犯了貪污自罪條例然後工作通通沒有了所以這一連串的事情"},{"start":5674.773,"end":5689.851,"text":"被現在社會大眾尤其是基層的公務體系開始大家討論說這樣就是我們的司法資源也非常非常的稀少那檢察官呢應該照理講他那個辦案那個什麼辦案的量很大才對"},{"start":5695.337,"end":5711.942,"text":"像这样违罪重罚的要不要符合相关的比例原则现在看到在网路上也开始有做相关的公民的提案这里面比如说什么0到5万应该减轻其刑或者免刑等等"},{"start":5712.862,"end":5726.076,"text":"那我想請問一下司法院針對現在在社會上現在大家普遍在討論或關心的這個違罪重罰的狀況你們有沒有什麼樣的立場"},{"start":5730.235,"end":5758.928,"text":"首先跟委員報告因為法官一定是依法獨立審判所以說我們一定要依據法律至於說相關的貪污自罪條例就是說它現行的規定是不是周延我想都有很多討論法務部在9月的時候所發的新聞稿因為貪污自罪條例的主責機關是法務部他們發了新聞稿又說針對小額的貪污案件"},{"start":5759.748,"end":5775.533,"text":"會去修這個貪污自罪那個條例來符合那個罪責那個相當所以法務部他們有在啟動這個部分的修法所以你們同意嗎我們贊同的你們也贊同就是也可以減輕在法院這一端對於這種非常"},{"start":5778.114,"end":5802.605,"text":"這種小的案件搞不好也許法官也是有同情像這樣的案件但是他必須要去受理有一些因為只要像基層的公務員只要他碰到這些相關的他最後連工作都沒有了連退休金都沒有了像我剛剛講的除了這個這個企業隊員可能是最近觸動很多民眾討論最多的一個案件"},{"start":5805.586,"end":5814.599,"text":"那之前也有其實我也有收到陳情就是小小的基層這個基層的警察他就是因為開一個罰單上面有些就說就不要讓他罰那麼重啦就這樣子"},{"start":5821.269,"end":5833.118,"text":"然後他就處罰了然後變成他連工作都沒有所以我覺得在執法者人在衙門好修行另外一個就是同樣的我們一直在討論的就是這個交保到底"},{"start":5838.578,"end":5860.95,"text":"就是要交保的話 交保金額到底是怎麼樣才是合理還有無保請回的 它的標準又是什麼而這樣子會不會成為一個犯罪的破口最近因為你們發生的 這個是監察院彈劾你們的法官針對中文制逃跑的事件"},{"start":5861.77,"end":5890.164,"text":"那另外其實我自己本身非常關心因為南京三民站就是我的選區那麼最近台鐵出現在台鐵就是驟目睽睽之下有女性被性侵了而且還是有個外籍旅客那與此同時呢在南京三民站晚上10點在台北市老講晚上10點不算太晚因為它就是去倒垃圾就是去倒垃圾"},{"start":5891.084,"end":5906.829,"text":"到垃圾的時候被一個街友在那邊脫褲子 漏鳥然後就抓他要到暗箱去就是準備要性侵好 這個案件竟然最後是被吳寶請回裁定吳寶請回"},{"start":5911.071,"end":5930.349,"text":"這個案子我真的就不懂了他採定無保請回之後我們的選區大家就緊張啦這個案子發生了然後你再請回他是不是又讓他放回到街頭會不會再有下一個受害人這種無保請回到底你們的標準是什麼"},{"start":5931.47,"end":5956.653,"text":"還有過去我們一直說打詐打詐這個用釣魚簡訊的打詐集團成員當然他是專門開車這樣的一個成員最後也無保請回這案子也無保請回我真的就覺得說這種所謂的無保請回"},{"start":5958.447,"end":5974.753,"text":"前一陣子發生的在土城直接殺了他的太太殺了他的這個小姨子也是一樣啊這個違反這個家暴令然後一樣無保請回所以我想請問一下有保無保保釋金到底是多少請問一下"},{"start":5982.628,"end":6005.182,"text":"在法官 在你們法院這一端你們的標準是什麼好 我再舉一個例子這個傘兵 就昨天的傘兵也有50萬 50萬 35萬有不同的交保 我也不大懂這個不同 因為他們的案情都完全一模一樣你是以他的財力嗎還是以他的知名度嗎 我不懂有50萬 50萬 有35萬交保的"},{"start":6008.504,"end":6025.177,"text":"好 那館長陳之漢因為他在直播的時候說要斬首總統用15萬給他交保我就不懂這15萬你們到底橫著是什麼橫著他會不會跑掉 是嗎那會不會跑掉就是還是橫著他的財力嗎"},{"start":6026.751,"end":6050.148,"text":"像這些案子 我們在今年有很多政治性案件國民黨的台北市黨部主委黃禮錦如她偽造文書案 這個也是五年以下一千萬交保 那個散兵 那個罪行也不輕罪重她也可能到七年 或者是五年以下"},{"start":6053.479,"end":6078.987,"text":"50萬 50萬 35萬交保所以我就不懂你們這個交保金額是以他犯罪情節的重大與否他的刑度還是以你認為他會不會跑掉還是以你可能認為他會跑掉但是你要橫著他的財力那在這邊我講到這些人你說他財力差很多嗎沒有差很多"},{"start":6080.717,"end":6102.428,"text":"而且有人講黃綠景如是貴婦可是演藝人員她也有一定的財力所以我的意思就是說你們的交不交保跟交保金額到底差距在哪裡以我來看都已經落鳥試圖性侵在大街上試圖性侵了你卻可以完全無保請回 沒事"},{"start":6103.507,"end":6125.843,"text":"涉及炸雞集團幫炸雞集團開車也一樣無保請回所以副秘書長我可不可以請問法院我們不是法律人但是我們都關心法律那我們看到不就是一般老百姓來看我不懂啊什麼樣案件你可以完全的無保請回"},{"start":6126.784,"end":6138.138,"text":"那你可能讓他下一次下一次可能再犯而且這是我們最關心的婦女的安全或者詐欺你卻可以無保請回請問一下你們的標準到底是什麼"},{"start":6140.559,"end":6166.839,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢首先就委員關心南京三民那個案件因為我們真的不是陳審法官我們手上現在完全沒有那個卷證所以說這個案件就是第一個要看的是他涉及的罪名就是說他涉及的罪名到底現在依卷證所呈現的到底是一個公然猥褻還是有到性侵我們並不知道如果說是他涉及侵罪是三年以下的話"},{"start":6167.439,"end":6189.577,"text":"那在刑訴113條他要那個只要那個當事人申請那個交保的時候呢這是那個有法律規定就是他並不是直接就會進入到那個羈押那所以就是說簡單來講就是委員所講的這一些那個你沒有羈押你也完全沒有交保就是你就放回去沒事了放回去"},{"start":6190.598,"end":6207.169,"text":"所以我知道你每個都講說因為我們不是成城法官但是我們看到這一個又一個案例而且這都是在我們身邊的我今天跟你討論的還不是一些政治性的案例政治性案例我看起來這個不交保金額我也看不出來你們的標準到底是什麼但是我現在更在意的這個南京三民站就是我選區嘛你就把它放掉了放掉大家就害怕了嘛"},{"start":6216.991,"end":6239.465,"text":"大家就害怕啊 所以我真的拜託我們都尊重法官司法獨立但是你們獨立成這樣啊獨立成司法沒有辦法保護良善的老百姓基本的婦女安全都沒有辦法保護這件連續發生的事情有人會覺得婦女在台北市安全嗎"},{"start":6241.977,"end":6262.827,"text":"然後已經都已經可以 都已經進入司法還是可以這樣子直接這樣無保請回 直接放回街頭所以我要拜託 就是請我們司法院你們一直修這些法 老實說啊這些法 我老實講 我看起來不重要"},{"start":6264.403,"end":6282.653,"text":"因為你跟我們人民期待跟人民的財產跟人民的人身安全保障你們太遙遠了以前說恐龍法官到現在恐龍法官繼續存在如果這是你的太太如果這是你的女兒你會這樣子嗎對不起"},{"start":6289.13,"end":6317.036,"text":"我馬上好所以請你們回去人民所重視的希望司法對我們最基本的保護我覺得我們的法院要承擔起來好不好好謝謝王委員那司法院我想這中間的落差也請你們思考一下最重要是人民的一個對於司法還有法律的一個看法我想你們也可以作為一個參考好不好好謝謝那接下來我們就請審發會委員謝謝"},{"start":6336.449,"end":6339.673,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長我們請王副秘書長副秘書長早我想我們今天是針對我們司法院這個114年度的立法計畫我們來進行探討"},{"start":6355.954,"end":6379.663,"text":"我看到我們今年司法院書面送來的這114年度的年度立法計畫裡面大概看起來就是五項立法計畫兩個有關法院組織法的一個少年事件處理法兩個有關刑事訴訟法的刑事訴訟法的部分"},{"start":6381.607,"end":6407.077,"text":"這個一個是針對這個112年宪判第九號這個是有關律師工作權的相關問題那我個人認為最值得討論而且是我認為這個今年的這個立法計畫裡面我認為最重要的一項就是有關刑事訴訟法的這個因應這個112年宪判之第八號這個有關強化被害人"},{"start":6408.217,"end":6416.636,"text":"在這個程序地位的這個相關的刑事訴訟法修法這部分我想今天來跟副秘書長探討因為事實上這個"},{"start":6418.752,"end":6445.724,"text":"這個7月底其實之前我們副秘書長來的時候我也是就是針對這個有關被害人這個程序參與的這個問題來跟我們這個副秘書長就教那今天我在看到說我們這個114年度的這個立法計畫裡面有把它列入這個立法這個修法的計畫我個人是認為說這個是值得肯定而且我認為說這個是非常"},{"start":6448.771,"end":6450.497,"text":"事實上是有推動的必要性"},{"start":6452.386,"end":6477.907,"text":"那這個其實我們我國的這個司法制度在這個被害人的訴訟參與的部分他就這整個嚴格大概基本上我的印象中應該是我們是在1997年1997年我們徵定才徵定這個刑事訴訟法第271條第二項那時候開始才有訴訟才有這個被害人才訴訟參與才開始立法那再來"},{"start":6479.208,"end":6496.546,"text":"做了第一次修 第一次是在2003年我們有增訂了271條之一最主要是開放這個代理人 代理人可以這個被害人的代理人可以參與 可以在審判中陳述意見"},{"start":6499.076,"end":6522.943,"text":"最重要的修法是5年前109年2020年我們整個修法整個新增了被害人訴訟參與制度這整個專章可以說把我們因為事實上被害人參與訴訟的部分確實在學理上面是有相當的"},{"start":6524.844,"end":6539.59,"text":"相當的張力這個部分有因為他必須要衡量衡著這個被害人的這個情感意見但是也要避免這個情緒性的量刑或者是這個"},{"start":6541.05,"end":6556.421,"text":"有他的這個因為被害人陳述而造成這個重複這個重複的評價這個部分我覺得所以這個制度上的設計在其實在各國立法力上面都在這兩個方面在做做橫評"},{"start":6559.247,"end":6574.065,"text":"我看我們就目前的限制來講我們的被害人參與大概有幾個部分一個部分是調查證據的部分調查證據的部分是被害人有參與的機會再來就是有關被害人情感的意見陳述"},{"start":6575.467,"end":6601.338,"text":"那最後是在辯論科型的意見陳述大概可以說就證據 感情陳述 科型範圍被害人可以表達意見但是這整個這次我們再修法的重點因為過去事實上是這樣的制度在109年的修法大概大致上建立了那這次的修法重點是不是副民長你再簡單講一下"},{"start":6603.695,"end":6629.209,"text":"委員我請廳長來說明好嗎委員好我們這次修法就是要在參與訴訟這邊讓被告被害人可以直接去詢問被告甚至他表達他的情感因為這次被告的行為導致他有什麼樣的損害可能他相關的情緒上或是情感上受到什麼樣的情緒上的反應那時候家庭或是他的家庭或是生活受到什麼樣的"},{"start":6630.169,"end":6644.033,"text":"也就是說過去基本上這個被害人參與他基本上是審判長他是不是給予他這個被害人陳述的機會但是現在我們修法之後變成我們這個訴訟參與人跟這個代理人他可以這個請求就"},{"start":6650.325,"end":6673.367,"text":"其實你們就你們的修法他就這個在這個科型資料查詢的調查中他可以提出他的被影響的陳述他也可以就科型的範圍事項他可以直接他可以主動詢問被告對不對這個請他可以請求詢問被告請求詢問被告大概是這一次的修法重點那這個"},{"start":6676.57,"end":6693.802,"text":"這個我在看這個在立法旅遊裡面你們也把這個就我剛剛所講的這個這個被害人參與跟這個整個這個審判的這個這個橫評你們也做了一個考量那這個我整個在這個"},{"start":6695.394,"end":6717.767,"text":"這個制度大概到目前我們在這次我們看到的你們提出的這個立法計畫之前的制度就是現行的這個制度大概目前法界大家學界最探討的一個部分就是說我們現在這個制度雖然我們都有明定說被害人在什麼樣程序之下他可以參與但是事實上"},{"start":6718.447,"end":6733.153,"text":"他所做的這個陳述他的訴訟地位他做這個陳述的內容他在整個訴訟地位裡面事實上是沒有明確的對不對目前的我們的立法這個包括就是說我被害人去陳述這個陳述他是不是"},{"start":6734.235,"end":6752.303,"text":"是不是必須載明或者說你必須在他在整個這個審判地位當中他的這個訴訟地位這個是不明確的那這個有關他的你如果說違反這個在這個違反的效果啦救濟的程序這些也都沒有目前啦 目前都是沒有的啦那這個"},{"start":6753.735,"end":6781.537,"text":"我在七月的時候做的這個質詢我那時候有要求你們書面的答覆那時候就是說我希望你們能夠就因為這個被害人參與訴訟程序實施五年了嘛那這五年來我請你們做一些統計就有關被害人這個在所有的這個審判過程中有參酌被害人這個意見陳述的部分大概有請你們做一個統計我在七月"},{"start":6782.498,"end":6805.647,"text":"我在7月30號這個的質詢裡面提出來那你們在8月8月中8月15的時候給我一個回函了回函就是說你們針對這個這個有關這類陳述你們的這個統計數字這個近三年來我國法院判決中採用被害人影響陳述案件的統計"},{"start":6807.249,"end":6832.451,"text":"這我就針對你們這8月5號的這個回函我就來做再做進一步的詢問我看你們這個統計統計出來的意見近三年這個其實看起來就數據上面看起來差距是非常非常大你在彰化這個彰化地方法院有參酌被害人意見有被害人意見就跟被害人影響陳述的有209件209件"},{"start":6836.516,"end":6861.828,"text":"那澎湖連江都只有一件那澎湖連江那訴訟案件比較少那你台北士林地方法院只有六件新北地方法院六件那彰化地方法院209件這個差距是非常非常大那這個部分你們有什麼樣的看法這樣子的差距的懸殊你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":6863.455,"end":6882.628,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個來自於說裁判書書寫的方式的問題因為我們是透過裁判書的一個關鍵字去做搜尋的這個就是我要問的所以這個統計數據我們很老實的講不是非常沒辦法全面性的表達這個裁判書的全貌這就是我今天要質詢的重點就是說我看你們這個統計書這麼懸殊那我當然會想說為什麼這麼懸殊就一問"},{"start":6892.495,"end":6916.991,"text":"你們就是用關鍵字搜尋了所以關鍵字簡單講就是審判書裡面有提到說被害人他陳述的意見你們就把它列為有他如果審判書裡面沒有寫他審判書裡面沒有寫有可能他在審判過程中是被害人是有參與的只是他沒有被呈現在審判書上面對不對所以你們用這種類似像Google這種方式的Google打進關鍵字審發會出來多少筆"},{"start":6919.733,"end":6945.165,"text":"大概就是多少筆你們就是用這個方式這個統計數是這樣來的你們輸入被害人意見或者被害人影響陳述這幾個關鍵字然後收集出來所以彰化地方法院有209件你士林地方法院才6件近三年 三年裡面才6件這個差距是非常懸殊這樣子的統計方法當然不精確剛剛聽到有講"},{"start":6947.099,"end":6953.861,"text":"但是那怎么办我们就以后还是我再过一年我再问你说那去年的状况怎么样你还是用关键字搜寻吗"},{"start":6954.505,"end":6978.521,"text":"我們可能要思考由裁判書製作的法官來特別去填寫說他有沒有採取被害人影響陳述把他的相關意見表達有沒有這樣的機制我現在就是要問現在這個機制還沒有建立也許我們可以從這邊來開始我現在要問的就是你們要不要建立這樣的機制就是說因為我們現在我們也在修法進度上面我們也在修法我們希望再強化被害人的參與"},{"start":6979.841,"end":6995.956,"text":"但是在過去已經十四五年的裡面我們究竟被人參與的過程在我們我國司法審判過程中到底他的成效如何他所扮演的他在這個對審判過程審判結果的影響這些我們完全都"},{"start":6997.288,"end":7024.75,"text":"一無所知這個機制我們會來建立但當修法之後我們更需要來評估這個修法之後的相關影響的結果我想不管有沒有修法不是等修法後再建立這個修法現在還在行政院會賢當中我現在是我們現在就已經在實施被害人參與的制度所以我認為說你們這個你全部都現在這種統計方法當然是很不精準說難聽一點有點可笑這是關鍵字的搜尋"},{"start":7025.811,"end":7035.799,"text":"你這個應該就是應該要建立一個甚至應該要有一套追蹤的機制而且我個人認為應該要有專責的單位你們現在這個單位是有哪個單位在負責"},{"start":7039.403,"end":7046.546,"text":"我們目前是由統計處來負責相關資料的收集但是現在的時候這個資料統計 我的意思是說針對被害人參與的他在審判過程中扮演的狀況這是由哪一個單位來目前是沒有專責機關沒有專責機關其實我們回去再研議鑑定這個"},{"start":7062.987,"end":7078.894,"text":"我認為這個部分希望你們能夠提一個書面意見給我好不好除了這個以外我最後一點點時間就是說一樣是這個有關被害人保護的訴訟參與制度事實上學界現在有很多的針對這個我們現在第455條455之39條"},{"start":7084.437,"end":7104.08,"text":"你們裡面有關於說申請這個訴訟參與因於每個審計都要向法院提出申請訴狀這樣子的過程這樣子的程序規定使得使得有很多判決他在不同的審計裡面他就認為說他的這個程度進行"},{"start":7104.901,"end":7131.184,"text":"他審判程度進行了以深所以就拒絕了再讓被害人來做這個意見陳述這個是相當多的我這邊所列出的這些判例都可知參考我們是不是能夠考慮就這個申請的程序我們放寬這個時間10點就是說你可能在偵查中你申請你有申請要表示意見之後你這個申請是一直有效一直到審判的最後"},{"start":7132.762,"end":7156.133,"text":"而不是說每一個審局你都必須要重新申請每一個審局重新申請之後造成不同的審期的時候我就以之前已經進行過為理由把你拒絕這部分我希望說就放寬這個10點跟他的申請效力的延續這部分也請你們提出可行性的意見 書面意見 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7162.637,"end":7167.019,"text":"好謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好謝謝主席我們請王副秘書長有請王副秘委員早好剛剛有委員質詢有些東西你可能來不及講現在讓你講"},{"start":7190.29,"end":7203.999,"text":"你們那個司法院什麼開會的紀錄啊這個公開不公開這件事情在司法院裡頭的規定是什麼等一下我們請廳長"},{"start":7209.546,"end":7232.542,"text":"跟委員報告其實是依照政府資訊公開法的規定那政府資訊應該要公開的應該是有關政府機關的部分應該是指合議制的機構的會議記錄應該要公開所以因為司法院本身它認為並不是一個合議制的機構所以在依照政府資訊公開法規定它並沒有一定要公開的情況"},{"start":7233.843,"end":7257.473,"text":"至於司法院已經有將這個院會的會議的決議公開在網頁上那這跟目前行政院院會的公開決議的做法是一致的這是可以補充說就是有決議的部分在公開就決議的事項有加以公開那至於在會議中個別的發言的部分目前是沒有好 所以你們有把握你們現在做法沒有什麼問題"},{"start":7265.975,"end":7290.161,"text":"有沒有把握啦是有把握啦好因為大家五院互相尊重啦這個大家就是司法院到立法院到底要報告什麼這個誰來報告這個大家都不管是規定或者約定俗成這個我們就繼續做第二個剛剛也提到說這個我們現在一般民眾也會認為啊"},{"start":7291.618,"end":7318.456,"text":"奇怪 這個人可以交報 這個人要讓他回去這個人要收他這個人很可惡啊 為什麼讓他回家了這個人看起來就沒事啊 為什麼要把他羈壓為什麼這個人交保幾萬那個人交保為什麼幾萬站在司法院的角度 個別法官他們做這些裁定"},{"start":7319.912,"end":7346.341,"text":"正在施法你們現在有什麼機制去討論說這個事情在這個法官界就是說他這個裁定怪怪就是有什麼樣的機制不管叫做補救 或者檢討 或者是什麼否則每次看到有人被生壓整個群眾都在等 看電視好像在開獎一樣"},{"start":7348.075,"end":7374.009,"text":"人民對這件事 現在沒什麼反應就說大膽這樣 膽敢說 漂亮啦 職業啦好啦 沒問題啦 跟你說沒問題就是沒問題這個好像對司法的威信 大家都會有質疑站在你們司法院的角度你們有什麼樣的機制可以讓人民可以認為說好啦 反正你們就守一個規定法官都會照這樣來裁啦你們有什麼機制"},{"start":7377.489,"end":7394.729,"text":"那個 謝謝委員那個 其實因為羈押有一定的那個要件那就是說 可是它很多事項呢就是說它還有涉及很多那個材料就是除了就是說罪名它會影響之外的話就是說它那些犯罪情節到底"},{"start":7395.69,"end":7412.699,"text":"重不重 或者說現有那個證據到底是什麼 那個法官除了這些之外他還要考量說每個被告他那個資歷也都不相同 那或者是說有些人就是說他跟國外的連結可能就比較多就是說也許小孩就在那個國外 國外就是有資產 所以"},{"start":7413.679,"end":7442.337,"text":"可能會那個出去那所以就是說法院他要裁量那個事情實在是很多就是實在是沒有辦法就是說我們一看這個案件就像剛剛那個就是質詢的有關於那個南京這個案件漏鳥俠他到底要不要那個羈押就是連我們手上沒有看到這個那個證據我們也不清楚說他呈現的這些事實所涉及的罪名到底是重罪還是那個我知道這個我都懂就是說"},{"start":7442.817,"end":7465.257,"text":"那我想這個部分呢就是要跟民眾多溝通啊就是說它不是一個法律感情覺得一個人漏鳥了而是說就是要跟民眾多溝通說法院到底是依據什麼樣的那個事實然後來決定羈押跟不羈押 對是 站在司法院的角度啦就是 社會總是覺得好像好像荷白文啊"},{"start":7468.92,"end":7478.188,"text":"合白文就是說運氣好 運氣不好我為什麼這樣講呢就是常常很多包括律師在評論說這個人被生壓了看起來壓定了或者是說最後沒有壓讓他驕保了那大家想說應該進去什麼都說了啦大家會這樣講說既然就都說了就交報就都說了什麼都說出來"},{"start":7497.063,"end":7505.034,"text":"然後呢 看起來也不會逃亡啊所以我看 搞不好啦待個這一個電子的監控啊應該是沒什麼問題社會還是會覺得好像要靠運氣"},{"start":7511.994,"end":7536.093,"text":"我知道你們的態度就是說法官你就要綜合很多的考量可是站在司法院的角度就這樣就說不然法官 個別法官或是合意之後決定說就讓他交保或是讓他羈押社會還是會覺得怪怪的你們世界各國都這樣都靠法官 法官說我把你騙了就是要把你騙了沒有你搞不好就要把你騙 叫你回去 叫你回去"},{"start":7537.062,"end":7543.507,"text":"然後我們的司法院就是說在行政上我們也不會去討論這件事情還是怎麼樣我在講的是一個機制或是你們都直接放給法官去用"},{"start":7552.619,"end":7578.297,"text":"當然就是說有關於那個有關於那個羈押就是他的要件跟他那個裁量事項就是我們平常就是做那個平常培訓的時候這個當然就都會跟那個法官多溝通那另外就是說現在其實有很多法院他都有那個強制處分庭那強制處分庭就是有關於這些羈押偵查中羈押這些那個申請呢他是集中"},{"start":7579.298,"end":7595.611,"text":"集中在幾個法官他們所做的那他們的標準就會比較趨於一致譬如說像申請搜索的時候那你是內部趨於一致譬如說台北一致台中一致那台北跟台中會不會一致"},{"start":7596.992,"end":7621.405,"text":"照理來說應該也會是這個標準不會差很多的好啦 我是建議你們這個在司法的行政上這件事情可能還要可以看什麼讓人民不會覺得說哇 每次有人去送鴨怎麼大家幾個人都要看電視都要等 想說靠運氣然後幾家歡樂 幾家醜有些人開心 有些人不開心"},{"start":7622.458,"end":7638.901,"text":"我覺得這樣對司法不好第二個 你們提到一個少年事件處理法要把這一個前科叫前案記錄 突銷的這一些事情我們現在很多詐騙集團就把這個年輕人怎麼說高中生你還年輕對不對你今年國中生 你去當車手如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你領工出來也都沒事這個會跟你們現在這一次要提的這些修法"},{"start":7651.983,"end":7680.194,"text":"會有關嗎這個我請那個廳長來說謝謝委員的催省是有關過去升職在所有的學生 家長所有的社會復歸都是突銷現在要有條件的突銷就是要保持善良品性才可以突銷不是啦我是一個15歲的國中生啊我們長大的就叫我去捏雞嘛當廁所嘛"},{"start":7681.73,"end":7687.153,"text":"我就去捏嘛 我們大人告訴我 你年輕的你去你這樣反正你現在的未成年啊 到時候都沒問題啦去用上課上課的 什麼關乎學校上課的都沒問題 幾年都沒問題 你就這樣去啊這些突銷 我現在看這些突銷會不會讓這些詐騙集團啊 跟這些未成年的一起來說你們都不用高興啊 會嗎"},{"start":7707.546,"end":7709.709,"text":"現在這一波我們送進來的修法我們也會廣為對社會教育 學校的教育跟各方面我們都會製作各項的你們教育啦 我是說詐騙集團的剛才帶到這個機會說你看 你看他通過啦 別緊張啦"},{"start":7725.45,"end":7729.012,"text":"這齁你娘子娘娘就去上課上上的娘對不對換個環境上課而已以後給你20歲25歲的時候紀錄都沒了會這樣嗎不會 因為現在的修法就是你有一個處罰的紀錄 少年那麼輔導完畢這三年內 輔導完畢三年內必須沒有再任何觸犯法律"},{"start":7750.1,"end":7755.142,"text":"你十五歲進去 三年後一次十五歲都沒記錄了是不是這樣這個紀錄 原第一次的紀錄如果他三年輔導完畢三年內又再處罰 不會突銷不會 他就沒處罰了"},{"start":7765.385,"end":7770.427,"text":"如果都沒處法會把它突銷這是為了讓少年復歸社會就能成長對啦 我是說這款作用力就是詐騙集團就跟年輕人說說人家的立法院就通過了現在改了三年你就沒事了啦 不怕啦他也不會有千科啦你就去做 去念就對了啦"},{"start":7784.79,"end":7812.601,"text":"包括以前是所有少年的處罰紀錄三年滿都塗銷現在是你再處罰不塗銷又留著是這樣所以這個必須讓社會整個翻轉這個概念想法跟法制的一個更新我是說我最後就提醒說這樣的一個塗銷的這個規定恐怕讓這個詐騙集團的老大直接跟小朋友講說你不用擔心立法院就是會幫你們塗銷"},{"start":7814.509,"end":7832.552,"text":"這立法院都我們立的 連電視報說這年輕人怎麼15歲去做車手 20歲都沒問題因為立法院已經說好了 就給他取消這個有時候要點頭說就是說這件事情可能要特別去注意一下 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言"},{"start":7851.145,"end":7871.924,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請副秘書長好 有請王副秘好 委員早好第一個新聞時事先跟副秘書長請教上個禮拜中華民國法官協會派了六位代表出席亞賽拜然舉行的國際法官協會的年會結果呢 這六位代表"},{"start":7872.244,"end":7899.172,"text":"好像沒有獲得簽證也沒有相關入境的許可那可是呢明明啊國際法官協會的主辦單位有明確的承諾說會協助辦理簽證還有入境的事宜為什麼他們要這樣承諾呢因為一貫的倡導叫做包容與平等原則可是好像我看新聞最後還是沒有辦法入境就是如同這個新聞畫面所說的那你們說表示遺憾要不要說一下後續的處理跟後續的對話"},{"start":7900.728,"end":7917.753,"text":"可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續有什麼處理的方法跟原則或者是後續我們如何持續精進跟國際像這樣子的看起來是一種非正式的外交但是非常重要的軟性外交你們這邊有沒有什麼態度跟後續的委員我請廳長來說明好 謝謝"},{"start":7922.708,"end":7937.856,"text":"謝謝委員我詮詢這個問題首先必須要說明就是說因為法官協會它是一個等於是一個民間的團體所以我想這個部分就我的了解法官協會已經有向國際法官協會去提出了一個相關的一個"},{"start":7938.496,"end":7951.485,"text":"抗議有透過其他的國家的代表提出來我也理解就之前類似女法官協會也有相類似的情形的時候國界女法官協會就有給這個協會一個年費的免除跟讓女法官協會的會員可以在其他場合透過視訊的方式來國際發聲所以這部分"},{"start":7961.132,"end":7978.906,"text":"我們也會建議法官協會是不是也要持續的向國際法官協會來做這樣子一個意見的表達就我昨天的檢索法國際法官協會現在是還沒有任何的聲明出來我們會持續的來關注這件事情"},{"start":7979.226,"end":7998.978,"text":"我覺得這個部分確實要一起持續關心尤其是在新的國民黨主席出爐之後為什麼我要這麼說因為亞塞拜人一向被認為是比較親中親惡的國家如果在國際的這種互動的情勢上我們連這麼軟性的民間組織的交流都要被阻擋我們真的覺得很可惜"},{"start":7999.438,"end":8017.843,"text":"所以當然今天司法法制不見得跟這個主席有關但是我要公開呼籲我希望所有在野黨的委員還有在野黨的主席要一起關心這個事情接下來我想要問一下下一個題目就是剛剛早上聽說有一個委員Kee Poo Poo非常生氣說他要追究政治責任"},{"start":8018.783,"end":8035.594,"text":"我們來看一下為什麼他要追究政治責任呢是關於他們之前修了法庭直播的問題但是呢我在這裡要公開的感謝司法院你們目前提出來的法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法我認為你們大大的拯救了台灣的人權危機"},{"start":8037.555,"end":8061.234,"text":"但是也因為這個辦法呢讓這個委員keep put我可不可以問一下目前這個已經經過了預告而且預告期已經結束應該已經上路開始實施了 對嗎好 開始實施那可不可以請你們簡單說明一下你們所做的調整應該是說根據這個立法之後你們所訂的這些策略跟辦法如何可以避免我剛說的台灣人權侵害的進一步的危機來 請說明一下謝謝委員"},{"start":8063.576,"end":8077.103,"text":"因為首先就是說在法院組織法它規定的是公播它從來就沒有規定是直播那有關於立法形成過程當時在黨團協商的時候提案黨團委員"},{"start":8083.286,"end":8110.584,"text":"在這個在這個協商過程中他也說就是公播有Live就是所謂的直播還有Delay Live他說我們所講的公開播送什麼時候有說要用Live沒有Live你可以用那個Delay Live去處理這是首先我們就是回溯就是當時那個就是在修法過程中協商的時候有人說的協商的時候就是就已經而且是提案的那個黨的委員"},{"start":8113.606,"end":8139.116,"text":"提案黨團的那個委員就是在這已經明白說這並不是要求要那個直播那另外我們從那個法組法90條第6項所通過的那個修法他規定說訴訟程序參與的人呢他可以申請把他的錄音跟錄影呢變聲變相然後就是把他去那個識別化那如果說是要這樣這麼做的話他唯一的當然不可能是直播"},{"start":8139.696,"end":8168.86,"text":"因為你不可能就是說在直播當那個一邊在播的時候一邊我們怎麼去把它給去那個識別化因為去識別化有時候是講話那個脈絡之間他沒辦法就立刻一個像講那個什麼有講什麼髒話這樣逼這樣子那個處理的那另外我們在講就是說立法議職就是說公佈他的那個目的呢他是要促進民眾他可以了解那個開庭的那個內容可是我想公佈的目的從來都不是要透過就是"},{"start":8170.861,"end":8189.128,"text":"輿論來公審來造成那個壓力就是影響到那個判決結果反而這個是我們要那個避免的那所以我們來回溯就是說那個立法的目的呢你不管在什麼時候播直播或者說之後播我們畢竟都是播出了他已經可以符合那個目的讓民眾可以了解整個審理過程"},{"start":8191.169,"end":8214.702,"text":"那也可以去檢視說這個判決他那個理由的那個行程這都可以大家公開來那個檢驗那所以就是說延後播出呢他是完全沒有違反那個法庭那個公播的那個目的的好來謝謝你剛剛引用了這個羅志強委員但是你很客氣你不敢你不好意思說是羅志強委員我來跟大家報告當時在協商的時候羅志強委員自己就公開的說"},{"start":8215.342,"end":8233.085,"text":"他說我們沒有刷直播啊公開播送有兩種啊一種叫做直接的直播另外一種叫延遲直播他自己還把這個延遲直播講的這個好像一副很有正當性喔所以我說謝謝你們的調整因為你們在這個委員的論述基礎上你們做了"},{"start":8234.206,"end":8253.296,"text":"這個調整讓我認為後續不會有人權危機怎麼說因為之前檢察官協會民間團體也有說到法院組織法當時的草案裡面對於公開播送的範圍跟定義講得不清不楚的所以藍白自己修了這個莫名其妙的法但是自己又講不清楚所以才會出現剛剛"},{"start":8255.197,"end":8279.238,"text":"羅志強委員所說的那些事情那確實如果按照剛剛副秘書長你們的說法你們在確實相關辦法的調整跟設定上是根據這個羅志強委員當時在黨團協商所說的所以呢一去識別化二延遲時間也就是說錄影後我們做了一些去識別化之後再讓人可以去申請看這個影片對不對"},{"start":8282.071,"end":8309.302,"text":"要看的話是不用申請那我很想請問剛剛早上有一個委員說要對您追究政治責任這會有什麼政治責任好 沒關係謝謝委員我也很想知道我們來看一下我認為會有什麼政治責任來 幾個問題我們幫你們一起看一下第一個我要再次說降低人權侵害的可能性所以我們必須要做這樣的調整例如說你們說以適當方式實施公開播送在法學上"},{"start":8310.542,"end":8330.974,"text":"含不含你剛剛說的判決後公開我們的見解是其實應該含在裡面剛剛您的說明也很清楚我們直接看第二個判決後公開播送可不可以幫助達到所謂原本的立法目的的說明他們說他們一直說要讓陽光照進法院要讓法院審理更加公開透明但是明明現在"},{"start":8332.214,"end":8353.861,"text":"黃國昌自己都可以去參加柯文哲這個會議所以我認為這個公開透明早就有了但是他們一直強加說沒有第三個我們也要問如何確保判決後公開播送是訴訟當時的原始影像這個可能是黃國昌委員他會很在意的我們如何確保這個部分你們有沒有相關做法"},{"start":8354.557,"end":8381.114,"text":"因為可能會有人擔心他的影像被造假啦他的影像被你們後續加工啦他們可能對你們司法院沒有信任啊你們怎麼回應這個提問假設有人提出這樣的問題就是我們在鎖定的這一個實施辦法第十條第一項呢他就有明白規定就是說所謂的公開播送是完整播送為原則那除非是說像剛剛法組法九十一條第六項規定的要變身"},{"start":8382.435,"end":8396.917,"text":"變相的這種情形的時候或者說有涉及那個個資洩漏的情形那這個部分可能就是還是要那個依規定就是要遮蔽聲音或是影像好 所以假設後續原則上都是要那個完整播送"},{"start":8397.318,"end":8415.285,"text":"假設後續有當事人他認為說我想要主張那個影片在被你們去識別化的變身或者是用一個馬賽克把他的頭遮起來如果他要主張說這個不是我當時的影片你們到時候會有設計相關的救濟或者是勘驗機制嗎我請那個廳長好 請說"},{"start":8421.207,"end":8444.453,"text":"這個部分我想如果當事人有提出這樣的質疑法官是可以依職權來判認定這個是不是要進行影片的勘驗如果涉及到個案的公平性的問題所以其實你們已經準備得很充分了所以我要再次公開忽悠我希望在野黨的委員在相關修法完成之後司法院已經做了非常完善的配套措施跟相關的實施辦法"},{"start":8444.853,"end":8466.739,"text":"我認為已經阻擋了之前藍白黨團委員們亂修法所帶來的傷害我希望在黨委員要繼續支持這個公害實行的辦法不要讓人民一直覺得藍白在製造問題但是卻要一直讓行政機關來協助解決這些問題就如同之前80歲免巴士亮表示勞動部做了非常多的努力"},{"start":8467.239,"end":8483.865,"text":"最後一點點時間我想要問一下關於司法少年安置的問題我知道你們一直有在跟衛福部跨部會溝通我時間有限我是不是就請您可不可以後續提供給我們辦公室相關的會議記錄跟會議資料是在可公開的程度底下因為確實現在有很多"},{"start":8484.965,"end":8505.06,"text":"判決這些孩子們到底要到矯正學校去還是要到安置機構去因為有很多安置機構其實越來越不敢收司法少年但我們也可以理解安置機構老師們跟社工們的困境但是在這件事情上我認為司法院跟衛福部應該會有很多的溝通需要持續進行來協助這些司法少年可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":8510.072,"end":8529.088,"text":"謝謝委員 目前跟衛福部的部分我們確實是陸續一直開相關的這個安置相關的一個整合會議那剛剛委員說的相關會議的記錄可不可以提供這是我們可以整理的 整理完提供再來就是我們現在有四大措施 簡單報告沒關係 我們就不耽誤其他委員時間"},{"start":8532.671,"end":8554.154,"text":"相關措施再整理資料程給我們好不好我們辦公室會出一個所資好嗎我不耽誤其他委員時間喔謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員那麼我先做一個會議程序的預告待會在吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘那接下來就請吳思瑤委員進行詢答"},{"start":8561.144,"end":8588.021,"text":"啊 蜂蜜 喝口水 辛苦好 謝謝主席 王蜂蜜委員早安大家早安 辛苦了我順著剛剛陳培宇委員的質詢我今天的質詢有兩個部分第一個部分也是我支持司法院來善後波帕王我反對法庭直播倉促的上路下一頁有一位立委喔"},{"start":8589.431,"end":8614.511,"text":"他前陣子有幾個名言讓我們看到他的雙標他身為公眾人物當大家在質疑他是不是有一些登載不實或者是對公眾沒有詳細的說明的事件的時候也就是質疑他是不是美國爸爸這件事情他就說了我太太非常不高興要我不要回應這種事"},{"start":8616.563,"end":8641.561,"text":"這種肉搜未成年小孩的變態行為根本懶得理一個公眾人物有沒有向人民吐實人民有知的權利他用這樣子的說法去要求別人不可以肉搜他的家庭他忘了他是一個公眾人物是一個立法委員那前幾天呢他又發生了一個事"},{"start":8643.153,"end":8669.315,"text":"記者要採訪他這位立委就說我很討厭有人拿著手機一直對著我拍他是立法委員他在立法院的會議室接受媒體採訪面對他不想面對的問題他就反對媒體對他緊迫盯人甚至說拿著手機對我拍不可以這是這位立委"},{"start":8670.899,"end":8689.673,"text":"他非常的雙標啊己所不欲勿施於人但他偏偏言以律人寬以待己把人家的兒子死不了這位立委呢就是黃國昌在立法院強推法庭直播"},{"start":8691.215,"end":8709.012,"text":"讓所有的受害者的隱私會透過直播公審完全被揭露在法官問審問案的過程可能都會涉及犯罪的細節這都涉及受害人心中的創傷"},{"start":8710.834,"end":8739.666,"text":"所以我們一直站在保護當事人訴訟當事人的權益包括有國民法官包括陳審的法官們的權益我們都認為不要進行法庭直播欠缺配套之下可是這位立委就是別人的小孩死不了別人的隱私透過直播全都錄自己的家庭的事情該對社會揭露的事情他都選擇性的不願意面對"},{"start":8741.455,"end":8762.057,"text":"還拒絕人家拿著手機對他拍那他憑什麼要求所有在庭上審判過程的所有訴訟相關人等都要被強迫拍攝直播然後可能留於公審讓法院成了直播秀成了實境秀"},{"start":8763.434,"end":8790.884,"text":"這不是雙標嗎這甚至是比雙標更雙標下一頁所以說對於法庭直播不應當急救張法院組織法不應當被政治綁架30個團體的發聲反對反對反對再反對但是黃國昌委員還有支持他的藍白在野的立委們呢完全置之不理下一頁"},{"start":8792.27,"end":8806.312,"text":"就是我当初在讨论法院组织法非常遗憾他还是进复二读我们没有机会好好讨论条文我只能透过一次一次质询的时候点出没有配套"},{"start":8807.679,"end":8835.211,"text":"法庭直播會讓這些倡議者所彰顯的所謂司法透明的這個大棋是為得其利先受其害這些都是我當初反對極其以為不可的理由它有違各自的保障將不利於事實真相的調查也有違無罪推定的原則也恐怕因為輿論的公審影響法官的心證判決的公正等等"},{"start":8835.931,"end":8859.704,"text":"這些理由 咱都搞不回家啦下一頁所以整個這麼重要的這個制度變革卻是禁復二讀抱歉那個標題那個禁打錯了 更正一下很快的他還押了一個三個月內上路我問一下副秘書長當初國民法官法修正之後上路的時間是多久兩年"},{"start":8860.9,"end":8876.106,"text":"兩年嘛甚至還有部分是明年才要因為需要一個司法制度的變革需要準備國民法規法如果我沒有記錯這是兩年半的準備期結果這樣一個法庭直播三個月上路"},{"start":8877.284,"end":8906.804,"text":"好理加載民進黨團緊急的召開公聽會收攏了社會各界的反對意見也某種程度的讓民眾黨委員吸納了社會非常反彈的這些點納入了他的修法的修正動議有稍稍的把這個我們拆了一些些蛋但是那個地雷跟炸彈還是在10月16就要上路"},{"start":8908.406,"end":8918.827,"text":"三個月國民法官法準備了兩年多法庭直播三個月就這不是倉促什麼是倉促呢這不是急救章什麼是急救章呢"},{"start":8919.915,"end":8941.486,"text":"下一頁所以說三讀通過的法律法官協會女法官協會再一次發聲明他們都認為也要求喊話司法院要防漏補缺針對立法品質的粗糙以減少心智會有更多的受害者"},{"start":8942.506,"end":8966.747,"text":"而女法官協會也要求對司法院喊話你們要補足配套所以呢下一頁你們修正了法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施原則有委員今天早上就是同一個委員黃國昌說你們在掏空立法院的修法意旨"},{"start":8968.223,"end":8991.986,"text":"他反對你們說了一大套其實就是他面子掛不住過去為了個案的修法是為了救柯文哲現在黃國昌只會更變本加厲因為以後可能坐在法庭裡頭受審的人就是他自己他更急切的想要透過輿論的公審他拒絕"},{"start":8993.666,"end":9007.899,"text":"你們司法院想方設法的亡羊補牢補救的措施我整理出您剛剛所說的非常清楚當時在朝野協商的時候在野黨的委員都同意是delay life"},{"start":9008.8,"end":9027.006,"text":"對不對是公播而不是直播這些在協商的現場都有記錄甚至在協商的過程在野的委員都要求去識別化所以說你們做出了配套完全沒有違反立法的意志"},{"start":9028.089,"end":9048.068,"text":"我終整了你們四個補救的辦法禁止特寫來保護案件相關人的權益 對不對是不要特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官你們也做成了普證當事人有抗告權這是為了保障訴訟的人權我支持"},{"start":9048.829,"end":9073.117,"text":"你們的配套還有必須在判決之後使得公開影像就是為了避免訴訟中的直播導致輿論影響判決就是Delay Live所在你們的補救還有要指定平台跟網站而不是任意誰都可以去播送我非常支持你們播放"},{"start":9074.728,"end":9093.684,"text":"雖然你們今天受到了這些委員很大的責難但是我們是負責任的善後但我還是要提醒你們雖然是指定平台避免任意播送而且是事後播放但都還是難以去防範變造或者是剪輯"},{"start":9095.206,"end":9105.332,"text":"這就是當初我們反對的一個很大的理由這個還是沒有辦法克服嘛對不對還是你們有什麼方法可以克服這個惡意變造的部分呢我請廳長來說明這個部分"},{"start":9109.637,"end":9128.876,"text":"跟委員報告其實在立法過程中本來法院組織法的90條之4是原本的法律是有規定就是說持有法庭錄音錄影內容的人是就他所取得的這個錄音錄影是不可以散布公開播送或為非正當目的之使用原有的法律就有"},{"start":9129.276,"end":9157.604,"text":"對 但是因為在這次的修法中在第90條的第8項就明文規定說只要是公開播送的錄音錄影就排除了這一條的使用所以這就是一個更可怕的地方是 那因為這個涉及到的就是媒體的管制還有相關這個可能就是超過了所以這還是我們雖然想方設法拆彈拆地雷但是那個炸彈地雷還在那裡會去影響很多訴訟當事人的權益"},{"start":9158.979,"end":9170.659,"text":"下一頁所以我要給你們送暖我要給你們肯定立法粗糙捕破網立法院叫禍司法院來善後何錯之有"},{"start":9171.693,"end":9197.544,"text":"反而立法院事後來究責司法院肇事者還來譴責善後者豈有此理我把這幾句話送給黃國昌委員下面一個主題我很快的帶過來下一頁法官不語非常遺憾有三位大法官用個人的聲明的方式而不是用憲法法庭正式的新聞稿"},{"start":9199.194,"end":9223.86,"text":"事前這三位大法官用個人聲明的方式你們知悉嗎有所掌握嗎這個沒有透過我們那個司法院的對外發言的管道所以你們不知道嗎你們不知悉那你們也無可奈何因為也不知道也只能尊重下一頁法官不語跟法官要語因為時代的不同要求取平衡"},{"start":9224.875,"end":9252.332,"text":"限訴法35條已經給予如果你有不同意見的可以出去不同意見書對不對這是體制內的可以補充意見還有呢最近同樣也有兩個限制73號跟75號裁定不同意見書裡頭都有另外的幾位大法官透過不同意見書或協同意見書針對憲法法庭被癱瘓他們提出了不同的意見"},{"start":9253.112,"end":9280.242,"text":"他們認為大法官行使憲法解釋職權如果受到法律的封鎖或阻礙大法官是要自救的他們是循正常的憲法訴訟法35條所給予的不同意見書或協同意見書來闡述他的意見下一頁但是現在呢系署中案件向媒體發表個人聲明不只大法官連法官倫理規範都有禁制的規範嘛"},{"start":9281.761,"end":9306.683,"text":"所以說也曾經有法官因為個別的案件審理完之後對媒體一再的說被你們懲戒被你們罰了對不對有這個依據可以處理嗎是有這個案例吧那我問你我沒有說我就依法論法我尊重大法官但是司法院也有大法官的自律實施辦法不是嗎"},{"start":9308.968,"end":9317.541,"text":"有這個規定那如果說大法官違反了自律實施的部分規定是什麼這個部分"},{"start":9320.615,"end":9342.42,"text":"一個是可以送監察院一個是可以有譴責或是口頭或書面要求道歉我不介入你們的處理我只是說下一頁時代不同法官要語跟法官不語我們要去面對這件事情我基本上是同意法官不語的這個規範因為要捍衛司法的公正性"},{"start":9343.18,"end":9358.056,"text":"但是如果因為時代的變遷積極面讓法官可以透過對外更清楚的說明案件讓大家了解是為了捍衛這個司法審判的公信力但如果消極面有些要捍衛法官個人的表意自由"},{"start":9359.117,"end":9378.458,"text":"確實有法界在討論法官要語但我認為也應當事前或何議庭的同意或授權也應當把內容線索在判決的範圍內不宜外溢出這個框架也最好是當庭解說較為適當更要避免涉入政治的傾向價值的判斷個人的觀點"},{"start":9380.56,"end":9395.261,"text":"我一向非常尊重大法官只是我認為當大法官被惡法癱瘓的時候竟然還束手就擒 乖乖就範那麼大法官就很難再被認為是憲法的守護者"},{"start":9396.195,"end":9413.707,"text":"又非常的遺憾透過違反了可能違反了法官不語的規範禁字對外發表的聲明我認為雖然你們是司法行政但是我要提醒司法行政有你們的規範法官要自律大法官也有自律實施的原則跟辦法"},{"start":9414.588,"end":9439.713,"text":"你们应当要能够去思考你们能够作为什么否则未来类似的事件个别的大法官或是法官有样学样不断的对外发表个人的意见我认为这都对于宪法法庭的公正性是不宜的我把这样子的观点分享给你们我还是尊重你们的处理我也尊重宪法法庭好 谢谢好 谢谢委员垂询"},{"start":9440.793,"end":9461.871,"text":"好 謝謝吳司堯委員不過剛剛吳委員講的那個議題很重要我還在想說是不是法院應該要提供一份延期報告就是針對那三位大法官在媒體上的發言那似乎剛剛吳司堯委員點到重點有沒有違反大法官自立規範這個部分的話是不是應該是法院要提出一份報告給吳委員參考"},{"start":9464.541,"end":9485.37,"text":"謝主席我沒有要求我不會去侵入他們的處理但我只是拋出所以主席也不要我沒有這樣子的要求確實這個議題涉及到所謂的法官在什麼樣的情境之下應該要不撲雨我們知道現在還有很多法官論壇"},{"start":9486.35,"end":9504.738,"text":"就是這法官也會在網路上面他們有自己的什麼問題台上面發言那這會不會都會有一系列的相關的問題那似乎我覺得這個司法院可以就這個議題再進一步的研析不過我想如果說司法院注視這份報告的話應該也會很衝擊整個大法官會議"},{"start":9506.287,"end":9528.524,"text":"所以我要說明我並沒有要求他們要出去任何報告立法院不要再凌駕司法院了立法院不要再凌駕司法院就我個人的質詢我只是提出一些觀點的分享所以主席也不宜為我的質詢去越組帶袍去要求他們什麼我要補正一下謝謝主席的但是不要越組到那溢出了我的質詢範圍謝謝"},{"start":9529.505,"end":9537.067,"text":"其實因為我剛剛聽到我非常尊重司法院要尊重司法院立法院不要再凌駕司法院了所以這個部分的話可以請司法院再進一步的提出一個延續報告可以在一個月之內提份延續報告應該不會太久的時間吧我作為召委我應該"},{"start":9548.73,"end":9566.172,"text":"但是这不是我的要求我还在讲赵伟如果要您可能用提案或是您个人质询的时间去要求好吗我想作为赵伟我应该有这样的一个权利而且这个也是积极的去处理有关于委员所提出来的问题那就麻烦司法院可以在一个月之内然后提出一份相关的报告"},{"start":9567.366,"end":9593.456,"text":"好就剛剛講的大法官不語是不是違反大法官不語然後以及大法官三位大法官最近在媒體上面的公開的一些言論有沒有違反大法官自律規範的這個議題然後提出一份那個我建議翁委員可以直接去看大法官的自律規範這個不用再叫他們寫報告給你了啦真的不需要啦好嗎真的立法院尊重司法院好嗎大家"},{"start":9594.237,"end":9603.938,"text":"大家平等相為好那我們接下來就休息了好謝謝接下來休息五分鐘因為剛剛程旭已經上面已經宣告了謝謝"},{"start":9920.575,"end":9926.099,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續進行會議接下來我們請林倩琪委員發言好 謝謝我們主席翁昭偉我們請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":9940.991,"end":9964.345,"text":"有請王富密委員早早安早上聽到很多同仁在這邊的一個討論我覺得也蠻正面蠻有效度的所以也很謝謝那個司法院對於那個剛才翁委員講的那個報告我也是非常期待你們的一些看法所以你們應該在不同的一個面向可以提出一些讓大家"},{"start":9964.805,"end":9980.591,"text":"比較能夠正面來思考更縝密的從一個司法的觀點上來看法官不語跟法官要語的這件事情是好 謝謝好 那本席今天針對幾個長期有在關注的事情來跟你們做個討論"},{"start":9982.332,"end":10008.068,"text":"本席長期關注有關於少年司法的問題今天要談的是本席的觀察少年司法跟行政輔導體系之間有一些割裂的現象我們整個少年偏差的行為常常家庭 學校 社會很多從壓力交織而產生的某一些結果但是司法跟行政體系如果銜接沒有那麼有效度的話再多的制度也其實會變成一種空談"},{"start":10010.029,"end":10026.534,"text":"所以依據少年事件處理法的第三條的規定那麼符合一定偏差行為的少年由少年法院來處理那麼法院可以依同法的第25條來請求警政教育醫療等系統的一個協助或者依照42條開整合協調的會議但實際運作的範圍目前多局限在處法"},{"start":10031.596,"end":10052.381,"text":"或曝險少年那麼對於偏差行為還沒有觸發的高風險的少年那整個的介入的能量依本席的觀察有點不足所以根據現行少年偏差行為預防及這個輔導的辦法第二條的這個規定少年的偏差行為包含了逃家離家還有幫派結交深夜會外出暴力行為"},{"start":10052.941,"end":10082.476,"text":"一些這個十多種的情形那這些行為如果早期能夠早一點介入來有效的引導可能會讓未來走向形式化的處遇的情形變少那本席發現實務上這些少年往往在管轄模糊帶那有些教育機構呢認為少府會會處理少府會呢又會認為不符開案條件那設政機關呢又認為保護個案為由大家都不介入結果最後最關鍵的時機就因此而延誤了所以"},{"start":10083.257,"end":10097.217,"text":"我們希望能夠正視這個制度性的一個落差司法院你們有權來召開跨機關的協調會議根據現行的法制行政院跟司法院有定期召開相關的會議嗎"},{"start":10098.883,"end":10121.706,"text":"有嗎 有但是相關的規定是法律上只說得召開沒有說應召開也沒有相關的單位來負責追蹤所以本席幾個問題第一個是司法院跟行政院過去幾年總共召開多少跨院級的少年事件政策協商平台會議就頻率上有多少"},{"start":10122.487,"end":10138.21,"text":"就這一點司法院和行政院的政策平台會議是一年兩次都有固定在進行一年兩次是不是針對過去五年相關的追蹤相關會議裡面的追蹤報告提供給本席"},{"start":10139.631,"end":10153.244,"text":"第二部分是目前少年法院跟地方少府會的協作有沒有明確的通報機制那麼少年法院不負審理或轉向處分的時候少府會是不是及時接手確保不中斷的輔導鏈"},{"start":10154.906,"end":10158.288,"text":"這個部分容我請廳長來廳長很簡短的精準的回應好嗎謝謝委員這一部分原則上都有做這樣的一個所謂的連結的會議不護審理的或者是所謂的交嚴管或告誡也會轉介過去聽起來你們是有嗎"},{"start":10177.217,"end":10205,"text":"要不然就把相關的這個比較細節性本席這邊比較強調你們的頻率還有結果是什麼那是不是把相關資料提供給本席因為您這邊說有嘛好不好那第三個部分是呢司法院是不是要沿你的一個修法的方向然後來將跨院際協商的平台制度化常態化那麼並設置專職的單位跟跨機關的這個資源整合的這個平台來做政策追蹤"},{"start":10206.747,"end":10233.419,"text":"是不是可以研議然後來實行呢是 委員剛剛委員的說明的槌尋那其中有一個部分比較難克服就是因為在CRC就是這個兒權公約裡面落實在內國法化以後我國少年司法必須是最小化來約束這個所謂的非行少年 處罰少年或偏差但是你們有沒有去觀察到那自從這樣子之後呢"},{"start":10236.34,"end":10249.792,"text":"那整個的這個在邵氏的這個處理上是不是有效度嗎還是現在變成一個三不管地帶原則上在108年修法以後把邵氏法有關剛剛委員說的曝險偏差等都移到這個所謂的這個邵府會"},{"start":10257.059,"end":10272.917,"text":"那你們有沒有追蹤呢少府會那這樣子對於整個後來的這個犯罪處意還有到最後犯罪化的一個路徑是不是到最後是在這段過程裡面問題可能比較沒有看得到可是問題在後面發生了你們的看法呢"},{"start":10273.717,"end":10295.645,"text":"少府會這一端我們各縣市各少年法庭這個本席在先前問過很多次就是少府會各縣市政府都有但是本席這邊提到就是說那你們真正了解少府會在執行的一個狀況嗎還有少府會的這個困難你們知不知道本席很快的講啦因為在這樣繼續本席是很有階段性的來追蹤這件事情是不是這樣啦這整個"},{"start":10298.746,"end":10326.892,"text":"整個是社會結構性的一個問題那麼如果這個部分現在把它推往後面也就是犯罪化的這個部分會越來越多那我們看到的少府會其實他們很多時候是叫不動人的所以教育 設政 司法就變成各自為政很重要的一個狀況是本席在先前其實有提到中央是不是應該設立一個專職的少府會的平台來研議不僅固定召開的機制"},{"start":10327.332,"end":10334.099,"text":"然後還要專責單位的追蹤跟成效的評估那至少這個部分你們可以給本席一個專業的報告吧"},{"start":10336.212,"end":10355.547,"text":"本席已經提過很多次上次是上次的質詢那我已經提過這個概念了那你們對於這個部分的研議你知道本席講的問題嗎就是說當你覺得少府會現在以最小程度去影響的話呢那是不是他問題是往後推了我不知道你們沒有追蹤這個部分還有少府會實際執行的狀況他們叫得動其他相關單位嗎"},{"start":10359.73,"end":10371.587,"text":"那如果中央沒有相關的錢跟相關的人那地方的這個可能很多時候在施政的前後順序上就會被影響了你了解我講的意思嗎"},{"start":10373.183,"end":10396.219,"text":"如果不了解麻煩你們會後再來跟本席確定好嗎那最重要是本席提出來一個中央的少婦會的這個平台那這樣子的延期報告希望你們能夠在兩個月之內給本席好嗎這本席其實之前有講過相關的議題這個是本席一直在關心的但是現在只是做階段性的確認你們目前的進度可以嗎"},{"start":10398.228,"end":10419.715,"text":"好 謝謝接下來本席要跟您討論的是司法人力的問題我想人力不足還有負擔太重一直是本席先前也一直關心的問題整個司法品質跟人權的課題會跟基層司法人力過勞會有很大的影響"},{"start":10420.755,"end":10444.88,"text":"所以根據你們的統計在111年度到今天法院的案量逐漸攀升其實這跟本席剛才在講的概念有點接近你們現在不是哪一個階段問題在這邊沒有發生後面就不會發生了所以你們看全國法院的案量逐年在攀升111年新收的案件大概有45萬件"},{"start":10447.121,"end":10470.18,"text":"45万多件后面零头本席就先省略112年度又增加到了48万多件然后113年度增加到了51万多件每年的成长幅度都超过一成其实是114年度7月底新收案件跟上年度的同期相比增幅已经达到了8.1这样的趋势其实没有减缓"},{"start":10471.448,"end":10486.9,"text":"但是在這個同時平均結案的日數卻拉長111年度平均結案的時間大概在99天左右112年度上升到了100天左右113年就直接上升到106天"},{"start":10489.082,"end":10516.452,"text":"沒有結案的也從這個八萬一千多件呢達到了十萬多件那後面這個數字是不是後面代表的是法官書記官法官助理長期會過勞所以在去年四月社會發生了一件痛心的事情士林地院這個法官自殺那傳訊給妻子的內容是壓力大很累那各位你們覺得這樣子的事情應該發生嗎"},{"start":10519.718,"end":10536.449,"text":"這其實不是一個單純的工作分配的問題司法整個長期人力負荷還有績效比跟心理上的一個負擔這個問題在司法改革裡面我相信你們應該有討論但是法條制度跟資訊化的建設"},{"start":10538.63,"end":10551.433,"text":"比不上好好來關係承載這一切的人那麼如果人沒有被當成主體來照顧的話那久了之後也是會失去靈魂的不知道您的看法是如何"},{"start":10552.523,"end":10570.668,"text":"謝謝委員關心槌尋這個問題確實就是說我們法院的案件每年事實上收案都是一直在逐步增加的是啊 收案增加 然後結案日也延長特別是刑事案件我們的統計數字從111年到113年那個地方法院都平均都已經有成長到12%到15%之間那高院跟最高法院都是這樣子一個趨向"},{"start":10581.551,"end":10596.721,"text":"但是我們相對的我們每年那個人力沒有辦法增加那我們也面臨了就是我們的總元額法就是全部在司法體系的總元額法是一萬五千的那個上限所以你們怎麼克服本席剛才講的那個問題呢所以就是我們現在那個"},{"start":10597.541,"end":10623.103,"text":"我們現在也是很積極的就是去跟相關單位去跟他們反映我們的問題就是說第一個看總融合法能不能突破這是一點那第二個我們司法院就是也採取了各種措施就是說怎麼樣去優化這一些程序讓程序上面可不可以就是比較精簡那這樣本席希望你提供幾個具體的相關資料"},{"start":10625.965,"end":10652.964,"text":"那麼你們今年是不是有在針對案件暴增跟審理負荷進行全面性的分析有沒有相關的資料因為你現在回答大概時間上也不夠了目前各地方法院平均每個法案法官跟書記官的案量是多少然後第二個部分呢是第一線心理人第一線人員的這個心理健康跟過勞的防治目前正式的支持跟申訴的機制是如何"},{"start":10653.504,"end":10676.09,"text":"那麼你們如何健全健治健康檢測跟心理輔導的制度第三個部分是目前你們針對案件分流方面有些什麼改革那麼像輕微的案件的處理還有電子調節AI輔助等等目前做到哪裡那麼針對即將達到的進度落實的情形是如何"},{"start":10676.73,"end":10701.622,"text":"那你會不會簡短回應有做的或者是還沒有做的或者是您要怎麼樣提供給本席相關的這個資料可不可以簡單的回應那個委員時間的關係我們可以提出那個一份那個報告那就有關於第三點那個案件分流的部分這個也是我們現在司法行政在倡導的就是說希望那個案件來的時候可以先有一個審查的那個機制就是讓他那個分所以現在有了嗎你們在倡導但是開始做了嗎"},{"start":10702.662,"end":10721.051,"text":"這是其中一部分就是我們採取的措施很多另外也在這個地方藉在這裡呼籲就是說希望在司法預算方面立法委員能夠大家都希望有更多的錢來做更多的事只要你們提出來的合理國民黨是一定支持的好嗎 但是針對本席剛才所講的"},{"start":10722.491,"end":10737.497,"text":"不要把現階段的問題挪後了然後就當成這個部分績效是很好可是我們可以在別的部分看到延遲處理的結果是導致更大的社會成本請記得本席的這句話"},{"start":10738.377,"end":10763.371,"text":"那本席今天關心的都是長期以來在關心的那請給本席一個具體的從本席開始關心到現在你們所做的措施然後從現在開始那到未來你們定的期程點本席要很清楚的看到時間跟做法可以嗎我們會提出報告那我們的困境也會在上面反映希望那個委員能夠支持好的 那謝謝副秘書長好 謝謝"},{"start":10770.33,"end":10772.735,"text":"謝謝林委員那麼我們接下來請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":10812.747,"end":10837.108,"text":"謝謝主席 請複密署長好 有請王複密委員早安複密法庭直播本來應該是司法改革的一大步而且在所有的民調裡面大概都有超過七成以上的絕對多數的民眾要求要法庭直播立法院也三讀通過了"},{"start":10838.403,"end":10866.526,"text":"結果你們現在不只踐踏的立法院你們還踐踏的民意跟七成以上的民眾對著幹我現在就要進一步的提醒你法庭直播在台灣早就有啦你為什麼比以前還倒退路在2000年你是這麼資深的司法人員你也知道嗎2000年蘇建和案的時候"},{"start":10867.677,"end":10896.875,"text":"台灣就首開先例在法庭外面架設了電視機當場就現場直播了結果 過了25年了同樣一個司法院同樣一個司法院比25年還特鐵路把好不容易 三讀通過的法庭直播用黑布把它蓋起來以前國防部啊"},{"start":10898.524,"end":10918.724,"text":"在洪中秋案的時候連基礎的那個錄影都不願意公佈大家笑他說是國防部蓋了黑布不是部會的布 是黑布的布現在司法院變成什麼 也蓋了黑布嗎我給你看一下 來 我們看一下當初當初怎麼做法庭直播"},{"start":10943.586,"end":10960.295,"text":"這個是2000年11月16號那時候只有老三台那時候我們怎麼做法庭直播開庭的時候在外面架一部電視機所有的記者 攝影記者就直接第一時間你怎麼倒退入25年前你是什麼資深的從業人員同一個司法委員為什麼過了25年了"},{"start":10972.065,"end":10998.287,"text":"我們往公開透明再走結果你們還抱持著這個保守跟傳統而且倒退入了25年這是第一個點 第二個點更嚴重喔你看 我為什麼今天給你看這個沒有立法的時候台灣都已經可以有法庭直播了現在立法完之後你用黑布袋又把它蓋起來你看看你的那個辦法你這樣怎麼對得起司法改革呢對得起人民呢"},{"start":11003.089,"end":11019.98,"text":"柯文哲都不怕啊民眾黨也不怕啊司法院跟檢察官到底在怕什麼怕任何不正訊問誘導 有脅迫有一些不法的行為公之於術嗎為什麼連這個東西都要蓋呢我剛給你看的是以前來 我們來看全世界"},{"start":11036.178,"end":11062.987,"text":"全世界各大洲都有法輪直播啊在亞洲 新加坡 南韓印尼 巴基斯坦連你們常在批評的中國印度 都有啊連非洲 埃及 南非南非共同體都有啊我們台灣的司法有比"},{"start":11064.79,"end":11092.708,"text":"印尼印度還落後有比埃及有比南非還落後嗎民主黨我們台灣的司法的公開透明度比這些國家都還落後嗎我們不是一直都是走路有風我們是魔幻聲嗎當好不容易往前跨了一步那到底司法院在怕什麼"},{"start":11094.848,"end":11096.966,"text":"检察官在怕什么有什么见不得人的事情"},{"start":11106.417,"end":11133.984,"text":"今天副秘書長都講不出話還是不知道怎麼講我現在回答嗎請說我已經問你幾下了是不敢回答還是不願意回答因為委員一直繼續講所以我不知道我不敢打斷你請說首先第一點2000年那個蘇建和案它並不是一個法庭直播它是一個延伸法庭那至於說它延伸法庭的那個做法當時事實上因為沒有一個立法依據就是很多那個做法是不是可以再進一步檢討就是可以"},{"start":11134.244,"end":11160.436,"text":"等一下 我時間已經到了所以有兩個 你這樣有兩個重點嘛 對不對你說延伸直播那你至少做到這一個啊是不是 這是你現在比這個還倒貼入耶它就是一個法庭直播的形態嘛它等於是第一時間出來的時候我們對著攝影機拍嘛那你至少做到這一點你連這一點都還做不到怎麼會這麼離譜呢好 那更嚴重了 我跟你講今天我聽了一個早上你們在請答我是媒體人出身的"},{"start":11161.926,"end":11183.584,"text":"這本來我們的法律裡面就明定啊有牽涉到人權或者一些機密的你就可以遮蔽啊我自己檢查現在有多久你稍微delay的大概30秒 甚至10秒你都可以處理啦該蓋的東西 該遮蓋的都可以那台灣沒那麼浪漠欸你們講的好像洪水猛獸"},{"start":11185.711,"end":11211.572,"text":"你技術上也做得到 對不對以前都已經有 全世界也有從你民調去看七成以上的民眾結果你們現在今天到今天還在這邊硬拗我們是五前憲法的國家嘛立法院非常尊重司法院而且認為這是一個進步的立法 公開透明所以我們給了你很多的彈性跟尊重結果你們現在要踐踏的立法院跟名利又是對撞的"},{"start":11216.463,"end":11233.904,"text":"馬上要審預算 我跟你講這個一定在預算裡面我們會好好反映出這次司法院踐踏的這個立法院也跟踐踏民意這個回去我再好好想一想 民主黨我也對著所有司法院的好朋友們喊話"},{"start":11235.927,"end":11261.373,"text":"當司法改革向前的一步在改革跟公開透明還有特鐵路25年還比不上印尼 印度比不上埃及跟南非公開透明度而且違反了70以上民眾這個需求跟他們的這個期待這樣的司法有辦法得到人民的這個認同嗎司法已經非常脆弱了好 回去再好好思考 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11267.216,"end":11279.204,"text":"好 謝謝那麼接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來請林國成委員發言好 謝謝主席請司法院王滬密"},{"start":11297,"end":11303.363,"text":"行政廳的吳廳長 刑事廳的李廳長好 委員早安我看起來啊 複密越來越漂亮兩位廳長啊 越來越帥但是就跟我感覺到很奇怪"},{"start":11319.983,"end":11333.122,"text":"我要了解的從頭早上到現在我要了解什麼叫做直播什麼叫做輪播來吳廷長什麼叫做直播"},{"start":11336.175,"end":11351.541,"text":"跟委員報告所謂的直播就是說就像我們現在在談的內容目前在外面馬上就播出這個叫做直播那如果這個播出的內容不是即時播出而有延遲或延後播出那就是非直播"},{"start":11353.002,"end":11370.638,"text":"對啦吳廷長你明明都知道可是為什麼立法院在6月27號通過的法院組織法部分條文修改的時候本來就是直播"},{"start":11371.758,"end":11395.15,"text":"後面技巧性的問題授權由司法院去研擬這就是尊重司法院我們同意你技巧性你去閃避我們要尊重耶但是你把直播變成事後的這些轉播就不對了王滬密"},{"start":11396.109,"end":11408.997,"text":"真的這個就不對了保安委員那個法院組織法所通過的是公播是公開那個播送他沒有用直播好 你今天我們要上國文課是不是"},{"start":11410.421,"end":11435.377,"text":"今天要上國文課是不是什麼叫做公播那你公播就可以拖到拖到幾天以後明明就是要直播就是說在判決之後播這本來也是各國立法常見的一種播放型態不要在那邊狡辯啦 王滬密我還稱讚你外表漂亮 內心真的很醜陋"},{"start":11437.792,"end":11447.703,"text":"包委員我們司法院我們所做所想的那請問一下我們都是為了要維持一個公平的一個審判什麼叫做公平"},{"start":11448.775,"end":11472.842,"text":"什麼叫做公平 直播就是直播 全世界各國 直播當然就是開庭那開庭直播的時候 說實在的 有什麼秘密可言檢察官起訴以後 那這裡面的條文 又更何況裡面充分只有兩個要素可以直播一 社會矚目 二 重大議案"},{"start":11473.542,"end":11501.879,"text":"一被告可以申請最後的權利是由法官來採你看看立法院多麼尊重司法院那你們為什麼一定要硬拗明明是直播你們就要事後來播放這個跟整個邏輯是不通跟整個立法研議完全背道而止王烏蜜我知道"},{"start":11502.859,"end":11508.371,"text":"我不曉得你們在怕什麼直播有什麼好怕呢現在不是直播主一大堆嗎"},{"start":11509.977,"end":11538.926,"text":"你不呈現只是你們在組織法管理法庭管理辦法裡面不可以直播那你們就可以去變通方式可以讓有心合備可以讓他直播這也算是另外一種直播可是你們這個部分你們也不要可是我們立法研議本來就是要及時直播讓全民去看到我常講過啦真的啦"},{"start":11540.342,"end":11559.209,"text":"心裡無鬼 心裡無邪 不怕鬼你不知道在怕什麼所以台灣民眾黨一直主張今天逐波的並非只有針對特殊案件而是這是兩個要素最後還是要你們來裁"},{"start":11561.369,"end":11588.116,"text":"這種東西都已經達到這整個司法獨立尊重的情況之下所以我坦白講當然因為張祺凱他說媒體人出身我是從基層出身老百姓都一直在問要我問這個什麼叫做直播什麼叫做轉播這些東西不要再怕"},{"start":11589.724,"end":11612.804,"text":"不要再怕所以我是覺得我還是鼓勵這是有一個制度可循也就是讓你們充分去設定一個非常完美的這些直播的制度可是你把它搞成事後來播放這個叫什麼 紀錄片的轉播"},{"start":11614.025,"end":11620.384,"text":"所以啊 王滬密我說實在台灣民眾黨非常堅持跟國際 接下來"},{"start":11621.943,"end":11650.401,"text":"跟國際歧視要接軌剛剛張旗開委員已經講得很清楚在落後的國家他們都已經在直播了所以我還是希望王副秘吳廳長還有我們李廳長刑事案件有可能社會矚目重大議案有可能被告願意來申請直播可是最後權還是法官你們不知道在怕什麼"},{"start":11651.536,"end":11656.742,"text":"我一個代表老百姓跟你們質疑就是心內沒啥"},{"start":11658.649,"end":11682.257,"text":"不怕鬼 只要坦淡淡 公平審判 公開透明我看你們在那邊 怕什麼嘛現在直播一大堆 講快一點你今天只是 今天馬上轉播給全民來看跟你整理以後 再來播送給人民看"},{"start":11683.345,"end":11710.607,"text":"看起來似乎都是一樣但是完全不一樣因為你事後播放就可以加裝但是你直播你法官你檢察官有所政績成功在庭上這本來就是公開的東西啊你們現在不是有聆聽法庭嗎有延伸法庭嗎那為什麼不能直播所以我真的蠻建議啊我們"},{"start":11712.156,"end":11735.991,"text":"這個王滬密在這個部分我還是希望你們要重新再修改立法院這麼尊重司法院我不希望司法院瞧不起立法研友這一點我要拜託兩位廳長還有我們這個王滬密這裡要重新再來考慮我說實在"},{"start":11737.072,"end":11757.49,"text":"報告委員我們是非常尊重立法院的我們不覺得啦有關於我們這個時事辦法其實每個委員的看法也都不見得那個一致那沒有關係啊你們繼續啊我跟你講你們繼續啊做半套不如不做但是直播就直播怎麼會是事後轉播這種東西是違背國際"},{"start":11763.175,"end":11768.688,"text":"違背立法之精神所以我以重心長給你一個好的建議真的"},{"start":11770.158,"end":11797.912,"text":"這個直播是未來國際之氣勢更何況重要重要的這個法律程序跟事實的程序這個部分是要有形式重大社會矚目的案件才可以直播嘛不叫你每一個包括民視也來直播沒有嘛這就是社會矚目重大議題這才是直播所以我希望司法院"},{"start":11798.652,"end":11824.433,"text":"回頭思案趕快把好好的直播的制度辦法把它重新修改好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林委員那麼接下來請傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":11825.257,"end":11850.525,"text":"羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言不好意思我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都尋答結束為止請莊委員謝謝莊委好我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好委員好"},{"start":11855.609,"end":11882.731,"text":"我剛在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種這種"},{"start":11884.927,"end":11898.7,"text":"這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道那個覆滅後的 聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 糟了"},{"start":11908.729,"end":11935.262,"text":"然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把它給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去"},{"start":11940.012,"end":11953.456,"text":"威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判"},{"start":11968.885,"end":11988.417,"text":"判你死刑就是死刑但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判"},{"start":11988.957,"end":12015.557,"text":"公平的一个审判那公平的审判其实就是要看说这个案子判下来以后有没有符合这个事实在这个过程里面到底是符不符合法律的正当程序我要特别提醒我们刑诉诉讼法379条那个判决当然违背法令379条那个14款里面讲得那么清楚如果说把它定性成说公开播送就是直播"},{"start":12016.337,"end":12026.99,"text":"那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令"},{"start":12028.274,"end":12048.382,"text":"如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵哪怕有刑求哪怕有人偽證但是發明最後發現剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已都不可以啊"},{"start":12049.615,"end":12055.122,"text":"我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利那主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心那"},{"start":12067.998,"end":12085.684,"text":"从国外或者说我们的大法官里面我们也都去肯认民众本来就想有向法案提起事实审判的一个请求权而且包括听审公正程序跟公开审判的一个请求权跟程序上的一个平等公开审理有一个好处就是说"},{"start":12087.196,"end":12116.209,"text":"大众他也满足他知的权利那借这个审理的过程里面让整个法治的教育也可以提升那公开社会当然也就会对司法比较信任那如果说你把公开审理到最后你把它导成是一个是变成是一个直播而不是它的核心价值是公平审判的话我记得在我们在审的过程里面我讲得很清楚了"},{"start":12117.15,"end":12143.562,"text":"大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人"},{"start":12145.134,"end":12163.95,"text":"那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也欺負人家的事 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪所以被告的辯護權他本身的權益更特別要去保障他為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候啊一個案件落後 這個A"},{"start":12171.206,"end":12191.697,"text":"可不可恶很可恶他去杀人可是当年很多警察办案是你杀了一个人你一定杀了很多人干脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果杀了一个人你判他死刑合理但他杀一个人你判他三个死刑判他杀三件刑事案件都是他干的全部栽给他"},{"start":12192.777,"end":12214.557,"text":"为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人你不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组执法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚你让他去公开播送"},{"start":12215.646,"end":12239.202,"text":"这个当然法就有争议那本席当初是想说没关系尤其是法律审尤其是做社会重大矚目的一个案件那这一些少事法加持法庭制裁这个部分只要这个部分把它做一个排除的话那是好事那也是我们去召开的公听会以后学者专家大家认为说有疑虑"},{"start":12240.023,"end":12261.946,"text":"立法院不能這樣亂搞 不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈 先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候 大家也講得很清楚啊大家要的其實也不是直播啦就是要整個公開播送 而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法"},{"start":12263.636,"end":12273.867,"text":"司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且"},{"start":12275.239,"end":12297.504,"text":"法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是會有反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播"},{"start":12298.884,"end":12324.9,"text":"這個本席表達反對我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝委員剛才很精闢的論述我們司法行政其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在促進跟維護審判的公正就是委員說的公平審判所以"},{"start":12326.101,"end":12340.607,"text":"公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看所以我們避免就是說"},{"start":12341.647,"end":12369.82,"text":"在立法過程中大家所得的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他的那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢"},{"start":12370.34,"end":12395.983,"text":"我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾還有最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後"},{"start":12396.604,"end":12414.746,"text":"就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送"},{"start":12415.663,"end":12442.081,"text":"不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講"},{"start":12445.154,"end":12464.481,"text":"老百姓覺得很爽好爽 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次有幾個問題要來就教副秘書長的就是說"},{"start":12471.686,"end":12495.614,"text":"我們在看這一次精神衛生法的參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家的參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理"},{"start":12497.174,"end":12526.381,"text":"那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级明年就要上路了嘛明年就要上路了但是呢有几个问题我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审"},{"start":12526.841,"end":12553.918,"text":"那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟"},{"start":12554.358,"end":12567.39,"text":"因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法好 謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多就是這期間以來都有跟"},{"start":12576.759,"end":12590.703,"text":"衛福部相關部會就是做跨部會的協調跟訂定執法硬體方面就是有新的法庭的建構跟資訊系統這些我想時間關係我就不詳細說至於委員所關心的這一個就是沒錯法官跟醫界都需要有賠利對於新制度所以我們辦了很多"},{"start":12600.586,"end":12609.833,"text":"跨領域合作的社區共事營還有工作坊也就是做共事賠利對於相關的法官還有醫界跟心理專家還有社工的領域專家做共事賠利另外對於推廣這樣的制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的社區共事營來做社會溝通"},{"start":12628.188,"end":12635.198,"text":"我比較擔心的是什麼呢你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來依法官的習性法官就是"},{"start":12636.899,"end":12659.381,"text":"這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題要把人送去病院你像比如說你精神衛生法裡面你第七次條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題了你代理人的希望說不要去"},{"start":12661.698,"end":12688.297,"text":"不要去扁他就說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置就說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回答來 廳長"},{"start":12691.419,"end":12714.909,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候"},{"start":12716.65,"end":12721.616,"text":"緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在"},{"start":12735.053,"end":12745.118,"text":"精神醫院執業過的這些心理師 社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些蒐集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告"},{"start":12763.297,"end":12784.879,"text":"其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊"},{"start":12788.062,"end":12816.224,"text":"改建的一個工程的一個進度像這些都要再去加把勁畢竟這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊這塊以前不是你們在務的但問題是法官也不是上帝的那以現在來看的話精神衛生法它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法必須要那麼多的一個團體還有跨部會"},{"start":12816.874,"end":12832.044,"text":"那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那麼接下來請賴慧媛委員賴慧媛委員賴慧媛委員"},{"start":12847.308,"end":12864.937,"text":"所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 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20日已完成被提名人蔣榮謙先生及陳明修先生之說明與答詢本日也依序分別進行被提名人黃薇薇女士及羅惠文女士之說明與答詢本日會議開始進行"},{"start":1820.595,"end":1847.688,"text":"各被提名人之說明與答詢前先說明以下事項先請被提名人黃薇薇女士說明後及進行黃薇薇女士之答詢黃薇薇女士之答詢全部結束後再進行被提名人羅惠文女士之說明與答詢答詢時間出席委員6分鐘列席委員4分鐘"},{"start":1849.69,"end":1874.566,"text":"本院委員發言登記於10點30分截止休息時間於適當時間宣布另外本日會議不處理臨時提案現在開始進行被提名人黃薇薇女士之說明與答詢請被提名人黃薇薇女士說明"},{"start":1888.514,"end":1907.225,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們在座的辛苦很早就在這邊籌劃的一些工作人員大家早安我是政治大學廣電系的教授黃薇薇目前廣電系我在學校任教的科目是閱聽人與媒介市場"},{"start":1908.446,"end":1930.313,"text":"另外還有一個是數位傳播與人文藝術那為什麼會把數位傳播與人文藝術做一個結合是因為在20應該是2010年到2016年年底有7年的時間我參與了NCC的WIN網路單一窗口後來也轉型成為iWIN網路內容防護機構"},{"start":1931.793,"end":1953.131,"text":"在這個過程中我們一直用預防守護跟關懷的三個角度去關心兒少還有社區家庭的一些上網安全會關心這個議題其實也牽涉到我自己個人在政大服務的過程中因為在傳播學院廣播電視系其實廣播電視系它是一個非常又要理論又要實驗"},{"start":1954.812,"end":1975.585,"text":"實證的一個實踐的一個細索所以在這個過程中我從國外回來的時候正好碰到整個的電子媒體大開放所以那時候有參與過廣播還有電視媒體的開放那其實很妙是我在出國進修之前正好也碰到平面媒體的一個解禁所以我覺得就人生會有一些"},{"start":1976.305,"end":2001.815,"text":"很妙的階段那當然在2000年的時候政大傳播學院開始推去掉這個去細別化能夠讓用學程的方式去幫助我們的一些年輕學生能夠做跨領域的學習那在那個過程中呢正好在政大附近有個軍美女中軍美女中高中生正好也是在總統府附近的軍使館"},{"start":2003.155,"end":2031.452,"text":"六月份的時候他去查資料寫作業他穿的就是一個景美女中的制服但是呢他卻去了一個小時他哥哥在雨天在外面摩托車等他卻沒有等到他後來在將近七天到十天發現他的屍體沉屍在三重的這個草叢中好那這個是大家所印象深刻的軍使館命案當然後來的行政院長唐飛也到"},{"start":2032.494,"end":2038.913,"text":"這個極美女中去跟極美女中的師生表示歉意那當然極美女中的師生就說希望"},{"start":2040.031,"end":2060.313,"text":"整個國家給年輕人一個安全健康的成長環境那我想在那個過程中因為我認識在處理的這個社工人員為什麼會發生這樣一個遺憾的事件呢其實是因為當時在軍事館服役的現役軍人他是一個算是一個大專兵吧他因為長期單一"},{"start":2063.436,"end":2082.436,"text":"偏頗的使用色情網站造成他在整個的行為上面管理的失控也因此那個時候雖然從1992回到臺灣我從輔仁大學大傳所轉任到政大廣電系一直都是在追著電子媒體的許多的變革"},{"start":2083.397,"end":2103.062,"text":"可是從2000年開始因為網路泡沫化還有這個軍事玩命案的關係所以我把我整個的研究教學服務時間全部都轉向數位科技的一個創新還有數位科技怎麼樣去避開風險那也很幸運在2010年可以參與這個IWIN網路內容防護機構的前置的整個的作業"},{"start":2104.282,"end":2126.302,"text":"也因此我發現說其實在網路上面不是只有聊天是色情的一些挑戰它包含了網路霸凌它包含了許多的最近大家最關心的就是誘拐 性剝削我這個禮拜一下午雖然都是風風雨雨正好禮拜一下午還去淡海國校也是幫他們做一些兒少性剝削防治條例的一些訓練"},{"start":2127.563,"end":2148.195,"text":"那所以其實我發現說在整個孩子在上網的環境當中除了媒體能夠提供的一個健全的一個一個整體的一個機制之外其實他的家庭還有這個孩子在學校的教育也很重要那譬如說政大跟白色外圍協會"},{"start":2149.156,"end":2172.157,"text":"我們最近完成一個全台灣的調查大概收入的有效樣本是7100多個樣本我剛剛一直在查我們的那個調查資料我發現說我們在看整個的網路安全的這個媒體素養事實上我們在做因素分析分成三個面上一個就是說他的日常生活家庭對他的影響還有一塊呢就是他自己的選擇"},{"start":2173.638,"end":2186.41,"text":"以及這個社會所建制的規範環境結果大家猜這個得分如何呢結果這個得分最高的其實是在他個人的選擇得分最低的是什麼呢是規範"},{"start":2188.469,"end":2213.395,"text":"那我相信台灣大家都相信說台灣就是一個不斷在變革中創新在不可能中創造可能的一個國家那我自己目前在參與整個的媒體的研究還有社區服務的過程包含去偏鄉去離島部落還有客家莊其實我們關心的不只是兒少或者是性剝削各方面的一些挑戰的因應"},{"start":2214.955,"end":2240.598,"text":"我也關心的是我們目前在廣播電視系我們畢業許多的校友其實大家都在媒體環境在網路環境工作我在過去之前我服務的一個對象其實是我的學生社區的家長還有社區的孩子甚至我們還有去教引髮族用手機因為希望隔代教養也能夠注意到家庭的網安"},{"start":2241.198,"end":2255.565,"text":"那可是如果這一次有機會能夠跟大家一起搭配進入到這個行政院系統來服務的話我想我服務的對象不只是社區的家庭孩子或我的學生他包含了整個傳播產業"},{"start":2256.986,"end":2272.754,"text":"因為正如通傳會的這個職責他其實是希望能夠平衡多元文化甚至健全產業環境還有維護消費者權益那我希望我自己在媒體這樣的一個存活的治理當中其實這過去本來是談到的是"},{"start":2275.335,"end":2301.405,"text":"氣候變遷要存活治理可是其實我看到的是台灣在影視產業當中我們有需要更積極的存活治理方式那在今年的六月呢第二十屆的聯合國網路治理論壇它在挪威舉行第一屆2006年它在希臘那個時候我幸運可以跟TWNIC的一些夥伴我們去參加了第一屆的聯合國的網路治理論壇"},{"start":2302.265,"end":2330.504,"text":"那這一次呢我看到在挪威的部分他其實在談的是怎麼樣能夠攜手能夠共創數位治理所以我相信台灣的AI世代的數位治理不是只是我們自己做我們希望聯合整個亞太地區一些的夥伴一起去發聲一起去健全台灣的傳播環境甚至讓我們的年輕人台灣的媒體產業能夠更"},{"start":2332.505,"end":2354.639,"text":"安定的發展 謝謝被提名的黃瑋瑜女士說明完畢現在請登記第一位本院委員林國成委員發言"},{"start":2363.956,"end":2368.862,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請黃薇薇被提名的 請被提名人委員早安"},{"start":2382.098,"end":2407.207,"text":"那我在想我們張秘書長也在這裡坐了一整天了那我說實在的因為NCC委員確確實實他的公正跟獨立性是一定要我 這是一個基本的條件 我很冒昧請教你你被行政院知行的時候到底什麼時候被知行"},{"start":2408.997,"end":2430.856,"text":"報告委員 其實這有一個小故事因為之前做內容防護機構的關係所以事實上我對於簡訊但是因為這當中牽扯到兩個電話一通簡訊跟面對面見面的時間前面聯絡的時候其實不熟悉的電話我是不接的那後來我們有一位業師打電話告訴我說"},{"start":2432.777,"end":2459.328,"text":"行政院在找我說要記得接電話可是我真的不知道行政院電話所以在5月2號的時候不對 5月應該是5月1號我接到了那通電話然後約5月2號跟行政院長碰面好其實這個當然跟未來NCC委員的職責是無關但是因為本會之委員非常關心誠實的問題"},{"start":2461.314,"end":2474.848,"text":"所以像昨天就有人不太誠實那當然啦因為這種東西誠實是一個NCC委員最基本的一個條件好 那我現在再來請教"},{"start":2477,"end":2496.254,"text":"你過去當然因為在學校教書學生對你的評價算還是尚可當然不是非常最起碼的話你在教書的過程當中你算還是理性中道"},{"start":2496.974,"end":2520.852,"text":"这基本上的所以跟本党的看法也做法也都是蛮接近但是我还是在这里比较担心的也就是过去你当你在当各方面因为你在跟叶泽关系确实非常密切"},{"start":2521.88,"end":2546.591,"text":"所以你在監理中立性的部分你如何去拿所以這個部分請你簡要說明一下是的 謝謝委員其實我也很務實是這樣子我們在江宜樺院長在當行政院這個叫內政部長的時候他修了一個法兒童及少年福利權益保障法那個時候他在第45條"},{"start":2547.571,"end":2564.67,"text":"沒有啦 這個黃碎提名人這個我肯定業界關係密切我覺得這個我一定要做澄清我其實生活很簡單因為我有三個小孩要顧所以職業婦女其實是挺忙的我那天還去買了筍回家就那天那個什麼竹筍節的"},{"start":2565.891,"end":2593.126,"text":"那我現在要說的是說事實上我們在NG內政部的這個法規我們也在整個的那時候有新聞局然後後來是NCC所以就促成了許多的媒體自律因為我相信委員也贊成台灣是一個三綠共管的過程要與自律為先那在這個自律過程中他需要諮詢相關領域的專家學者去促成他的媒體自律"},{"start":2593.286,"end":2617.634,"text":"好 那個黃提名的人來 我請教你你對於這個新聞的智力你很重視請問現在新聞媒體有做到智力嗎要看是什麼回答是 我跟你說要看是什麼議題在兒少跟婦幼的這一塊有一些進步但是還有努力的空間那是 但是呢在某一些好 對於一邊時事新聞的部分你認為呢"},{"start":2618.734,"end":2642.201,"text":"時事新聞的部分我們現在一直都在要求說因為我覺得時事新聞最大的一個挑戰是我現在要了解你對現在時事新聞媒體住職的這些的看法我要看法這個看法因為影響我們投票的景象好不好好你的看法我覺得各說各話好"},{"start":2644.741,"end":2669.501,"text":"另外一個比較敏感的因為你也當過公平人也就是三立新聞部你認為你在那邊做一個公平人然後三立新聞所有的新聞造假以及這些不正確的一些報導方式你的看法是什麼"},{"start":2669.921,"end":2688.873,"text":"是委員是這樣子三立新聞的公平我是針對他的整點新聞做部分那我注意到許多的申訴都是三立的談話性節目那這個談話性節目我們一直提醒他說你邀請到的人有提醒過嗎有提醒多次提醒還有就是主持人不要選邊站"},{"start":2690.074,"end":2717.969,"text":"好 那另外一個另外一個就是你有提醒過當然就對你自己的良知有對公平人的這些責任以告知但是確確實實媒體你如果進來NCC的時候他是要負責管理跟監督還有做一些媒體改革的動作所以我還是要請教你你未來"},{"start":2719.11,"end":2725.801,"text":"如果通過以後成為NCC委員的時候你認為你應該要怎麼做"},{"start":2727.266,"end":2752.289,"text":"這個亂象才會終止是 我覺得現在是這樣子各個媒體其實都有按照法規去設立新聞人理自律委員會那另外就是在NCC這邊也有一個在他律的時候邀請不同的單位來去做我覺得這個部分要需要各方利益關係人跟團體代表參與然後讓各方有一個充分的溝通發言然後最後找到一個共識"},{"start":2753.05,"end":2768.307,"text":"那我覺得如果有機會的話我希望在這個各方利益關係人的部分能夠多樣性好那因為時間的關係啦那其實我憑良心講你今天的巡打是會讓我們黨團做"},{"start":2770.771,"end":2785.218,"text":"以否同意不同意的這些決定所以我還是必須要去提醒你雖然你是三立出身的公平人但是我還是希望你要秉存這些"},{"start":2786.739,"end":2810.661,"text":"獨立單位對於NCC這些功能要去發揮我也知道七分之一不能影響什麼但是只要有人去把他這個問題發解出來我想這是合一致不是你可以去改變最起碼你有做對於自己的良知會過得去這個我要期免你好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":2812.766,"end":2841.526,"text":"好 謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請侯孟楷召委發言主席抱歉我先會議詢問我知道說下午才是羅惠文委員但是因為現在已經在場我能不能請兩位被提名一起上台我簡單問個問題這個不行 分別為之"},{"start":2842.079,"end":2856.949,"text":"分別為之那這樣羅貝提名人在現場不就知道我們要問什麼問題好吧我就簡單問個問題確認一下我想這絕對不會涉及隱私也不會涉及那但是兩位貝提名人不能一起回答我個問題這樣子"},{"start":2859.341,"end":2871.977,"text":"這個是憲法規定的 大法官解釋 都搬出大法官了我想我們也就不再爭論沒有問題我尊重我們的這個委員會委員來我們請黃備提名人 請黃備提名人"},{"start":2881.488,"end":2906.164,"text":"委員早安貝提名人早安本期要問的問題其實很簡單如果貝提名人可能下午可以再準備一下什麼時候接受到行政院院長的徵詢說來擔任NCC委員是 剛剛有回答過前面的兩個簡訊我擔心是詐騙沒有理後來是業界的老師提醒說在聯絡我記得要接電話所以正式聯絡是五月初我接到電話五月初 五月五號嗎"},{"start":2906.704,"end":2930.906,"text":"沒有5月1號然後後來直接就約5月2號禮拜五上午中午吧在行政院見面了解所以也是5月的時候才跟院長碰面就碰這一次對那他就開門見山就講說要您當NCC的委員是前面兩個我以為是詐騙的電話其實就已經在談這件事因為我覺得很奇怪所以是院長跟您通電話"},{"start":2932.286,"end":2940.752,"text":"是行政院的電話行政院的電話所以不是院長跟您通電話但是您之後跟院長碰面對OK好很奇怪喔"},{"start":2942.167,"end":2965.487,"text":"這個我不知道羅貝提名人他的時間有沒有早於5月以前但是如果說大家去看這個新聞的話4月底院長都說名單已經抵定但是我們現在問了主委貝提名主委貝提名副主委以及的第三位委員都說是5月才接收到諮詢那不知道是到底是誰說謊這第一第二那5月你就答應啦"},{"start":2966.773,"end":2989.199,"text":"那到7月31號才把名單提出來是誰的問題因為外界一直講是說有委員生涯規劃跟要調整教職等等的關係是您嗎這個我不清楚但是我其實是4月底是不是您其他人不清楚沒關係但是不是您是不是您的問題而造成說我們行政院必須要等到7月31才能送出來"},{"start":2990.649,"end":3016.206,"text":"我不知道是不是你的问题其他的问题你管不着但不是你的问题我可以这样请教我觉得那个时候我们的确在五月初的时候大家都在一个学期间其实现在课程如果做任何调动学生其实他们的学习权益会受到影响所以那个时候的确是需要做一些的整个的调课被提名人是现在还没有上任就已经帮政府擦脂抹粉了"},{"start":3017.116,"end":3042.068,"text":"NCC的委員好像不是要幫政府擦脂抹粉那叫做行政院發言人那我只是要問說你如果說5月1號2號就已經答應了那行政院到7月31才提名出來人選這是責任要釐清嘛那責任釐清我們才能對外說明不然說大家都一直講是說為什麼不審議我們也想問為什麼行政院不送名單嘛"},{"start":3043.035,"end":3055.94,"text":"那現在離得非常清楚因為你們是5月就接到徵詢而且5月就答應但沒想到行政院731才送名單嘛中間什麼考量如果不是專業考量就是政治考量只有這兩種考量來"},{"start":3057.95,"end":3080.469,"text":"被提名的人問一下你比較具體的一個部分我想被政府提名來擔任一個要職我覺得這都是一種榮耀但是某種程度上也代表一種責任因為你要秉持專業各界都在看那我們現在直接請教因為您過去在這個廣播傳播學院等等都有非常資歷完整"},{"start":3081.63,"end":3104.927,"text":"有跨黨派委員現在提出衛星廣播電視法的修法希望捍衛新聞自由能夠來直接入法就是對照上一屆NCC慶祝難說的狀況並且用關台的名義把特定的電視台給新聞台給直接關掉那其實本席的態度立場非常簡單任何的新聞台它有立場一定會有每個人都有立場"},{"start":3105.948,"end":3128.038,"text":"但是你不能逾越你的新聞專業就是你要查證那還有新聞自由言論自由是每個人的一個底線你不能用官台換照的一個方式來迫使某一個聲音直接消失今天即便是對付三立民是綠營長期罵我們藍營比較多的但如果說用這樣的一個方式我也不認同"},{"start":3129.318,"end":3143.335,"text":"所以我們現在有提出說衛星廣播電視法的修法希望未來NCC沒有辦法再以換照來要求或是閒置新聞自由請教您是不是支持修法來廢除NCC換照的權利"},{"start":3145.089,"end":3167.927,"text":"其實這方面的聲音是非常多的因為我們在傳播學院研究所上課常常跟同學討論所以您的專業是 我的專業的部分是這樣因為我其實在做iWIN的過程我就是在協調各縣市政府還有各方利益關心人然後一起達成共識所以我覺得委員的這個建議其實也是民意當中的一部分"},{"start":3168.567,"end":3197.167,"text":"因此如果有機會的話我希望能夠更大廣泛的資周善道 茶納雅言然後找到這當中的平衡點那我自己的立場其實我在做公共行政的時候我不應該自己立場太重因為我需要公平OK 所以提名人我可以解釋因為您剛剛講到要找平衡點那換言之你就認為說現在的法令是過於偏頗嗎"},{"start":3198.772,"end":3226.75,"text":"是不是過於偏頗傾向其中一端也因此他不夠平衡所以你也認為是說如果我們這樣子的修法也許他會又拉到另外一端所以要找一個平衡點但是至少目前現行的狀況以上一屆NCC也被人家詬病並且讓大家沒有辦法信服被戲稱為張CC最主要原因就是因為他權力太大可以用官台換照來迫使一個新聞自由言論自由被消失是不是"},{"start":3229.345,"end":3252.977,"text":"這個事件我覺得它是新聞史當中一個很特別的事件我自己都整個記錄下來很大的污點我不太確定是不是污點因為我並沒有進到那一次的委員會裡面所以如果說假設你在這個委員會裡面你會允許這樣的事情發生嗎因為請容許我提醒那個時候七名NCC的委員有兩名NCC的委員是"},{"start":3254.378,"end":3277.817,"text":"堅決反對甚至兩名NCC委員是到最後用書面的資料表達他們反對但當時的主委沒有投票是採取的是有沒有人反對兩位反對那剩下五位沒有表達意見剩下四位沒有表達意見主委就把他列為是同意就通過了所以到最後就關台成功您可以接受這樣的一個過程嗎"},{"start":3278.871,"end":3295.227,"text":"因為這是您告訴我這樣的一個資訊可是我看到你寫的是7票通過所以我不知道是哪一個資訊是沒有 是5票通過所以第一年資訊不夠完整跟正確那第二是被提名的人你要接這個位置你沒有"},{"start":3296.266,"end":3312.697,"text":"去了解一下這個公司的歷史背景跟爭議點嗎就像我們現在一般人要進去面試一家公司你總是你也會看說這家公司過去的這個待遇 薪資狀況甚至爭議的議題你未來會面對的燙手三欲或是未來面對的挑戰"},{"start":3313.956,"end":3339.402,"text":"主席我其實是有去查立法院本席我是委員我其實有去查立法院的這叫做法院的判決書有兩個是相關爭議事件是那後來高等法院是把他給再退回給台北地院要求他重新去審議所以我覺得在這個過程中我們需要尊重法院最後的判決"},{"start":3340.267,"end":3354.999,"text":"好 您看一下NCC委員的開會如果我印象沒錯因為我手邊現在沒有在但我印象沒錯應該是第999次的開會就是討論到中天新聞台關台與否而網路上"},{"start":3356.035,"end":3380.725,"text":"通常會的網站都有逐字稿的會議記錄那可以看得很清楚我有一說一有二說二這也確實是事實那我只期待新任NCC委員三大期待一嚴守獨立機關的專業性二嚴守新聞自由言論自由三兼顧社會責任的參與跟主動性這是我對每一位提名的NCC委員的期待好嗎"},{"start":3382.526,"end":3403.267,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝洪孟楷召委詢問完畢也跟洪召委簡單說明根據憲法第30條的條文職權刑事法的這個條文被提名人有訴人者其答詢及說明應該分別為之"},{"start":3406.738,"end":3426.81,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝洪昭偉現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席 請黃貝提名人 請黃提名人黃貝提名人"},{"start":3434.417,"end":3451.048,"text":"你好我想黃被提名人到立法院來其實我不知道你習不習慣每一個委員基本上都有他的主張跟想法"},{"start":3452.059,"end":3480.438,"text":"那譬如說我剛剛坐在下面我就聽到說要他這NCC應該要獨立自主新聞自由要廣納社會各意見等等其實原則都對啦其實我也都支持但問題在哪裡以後你當選就會知道了就是你如果跟某一個政黨的意見不一樣或某個立委意見不一樣他就認為你不自主不獨立或者沒有新聞自由這個就是難處啦這個就是難處所以大原則方向我想"},{"start":3481.742,"end":3504.604,"text":"在這邊都不會有問題但實際當選之後你的決策就必須要面臨台灣多元聲音的挑戰這個才是問題所在這是我剛剛有感而發不是我要問的題目貝婷媛我想過去妳的工作經驗裡面妳對於如同剛剛今天妳的報告我有聽就如同妳是實際"},{"start":3506.744,"end":3529.046,"text":"在第一線面對孩童面對我們的長輩那您也提到資安的問題所以本席長期關注這個問題我認為網際網路的發展這個特別像AI時代的深層連我算是很謹慎的人我都曾經傳影片給我的"},{"start":3530.154,"end":3555.936,"text":"太太跟小孩子我們家的這個群組然後我的小孩子就很強烈的指正我老爸這是AI這是AI影片不容易啦特別是像我每天在這個領域裡面接觸我都很謹慎很小心避免傳播假消息避免傳播這種AI生成的不正確的這個影片但我都還"},{"start":3557.372,"end":3582.953,"text":"可能會犯這個錯誤那不要講一般我們社會上百工百業 士農工商的我們這些長輩或者孩童那你在第一線的經驗裡面如果未來你擔任NCC委員你有什麼樣的具體做法你覺得對於這種避免讓長輩跟孩童成為治安的受害者有什麼樣的具體的想法或者建議沒有"},{"start":3583.621,"end":3603.11,"text":"是 報告委員我剛剛在簡單說明的時候就是有講到我們最近做的小學三年級到大學四年級全台灣的調查發現這當中屬於資安網路安全的部分有可能來自於家庭之間的教養還有包含來自於這個社會規範的建制"},{"start":3603.65,"end":3627.638,"text":"那以及這個孩子自己的選擇權結果我們發現當他的資安素養越高的時候其實是來自於這個孩子的選擇權是比較高的規範對他的影響他會答但是其實那個相關性是最低的好那我覺得能夠做的是什麼呢就是我們在預防教育要繼續的加強那特別在法律的"},{"start":3628.198,"end":3646.321,"text":"這些跨領域的教育另外就是現在因為也有AI其實在做防護機構的時候那時候就已經可以用影像做識別辨別當中一些不雅的內容現在透過AI科技可以做一些些的攔阻但是可能"},{"start":3647.262,"end":3671.343,"text":"還是會有漏網之魚那在這一塊我印象當中行政院有個打詐的團隊其實有一陣子我記得他們的表現是非常好那但是因為現在的資訊無孔不入所以的確是有很多新興的挑戰那我覺得這個部分就像我剛有講到在今年六月的挪威他有談到各個國家都面臨一樣的這種挑戰"},{"start":3671.963,"end":3688.512,"text":"所以需要做一個所謂的數位治理的一個共同建構的一個安全網那我希望台灣我們自己做之外我們也要跟鄰近的一些亞太地區的友邦一起來關心那甚至進入到這個全球化一起守護的行列好"},{"start":3689.772,"end":3716.931,"text":"這個打詐也好面對數位治理也好其實NCC都是其中的一員當然速發部更是責無旁貸但是我希望如果未來你有機會進到NCC擔任委員我希望發揮你的專業就我其實看重你的地方是因為你有實際在基層面對這個問題的這些經驗那其實這是很寶貴的因為我們很多的專家學者事實上他在理論層次他不知道"},{"start":3717.851,"end":3733.844,"text":"訂出來的法規就是說我們除了透過教育讓大家更明瞭其實我們很期待政府能夠有什麼樣的治理面能夠透過法治的方式譬如說什麼叫法治的方式譬如說AI的影片應不應該要標示"},{"start":3734.665,"end":3761.093,"text":"就是應該強制標示類似像這樣這個叫做制度面叫法規面那我們希望就是說在未來的這個數位治理NCC成為議員而你又是這議員當中的其中一個角色我希望你能夠發揮你的所長然後堅持你的所長認為說不能讓長輩跟孩子成為治安的受害者你看連抖音的執行長都自己講說不允許他的小孩子玩"},{"start":3762.211,"end":3783.461,"text":"這個就是我們在你在傳播領域你是學有專精那你也知道我們對於電視電影就傳統這個媒體的分類分級我們其實管制得相當的清楚什麼東西是孩子可以看什麼東西不可以看我們其實做一定程度高度的這個監理但"},{"start":3784.56,"end":3799.876,"text":"網路的平台就我們相對落後許多那當然這個跟科技的日新也有一定程度的關係就簡單講你法令跟制度就跟不上人家發展的速度但是我們因為不能因為這樣所以也就忽略了"},{"start":3800.885,"end":3823.337,"text":"作為一個政府在數位治理該扮演的一個角色那個把關的角色那這第二個也同時會衍生第二個問題這個問題就是當你在同樣的媒體通路在所謂現在的影像媒體的這樣通路裡面我們在網路上幾乎沒有什麼管制但我們對傳統媒體又高度管制"},{"start":3823.957,"end":3853.062,"text":"所以這個就會產生在市場上競爭的不公平這個問題我也問過主委就像我們現在OTT我們幾乎它在海外也可以進來它在哪裡都可以然後我們的這個衛星電視的這個像Cable好了我們管制得非常嚴格因為當時它是最大所以那個歷史因素裡面我們必須要讓這個巨獸受到約束但現在它已經這個大恐龍已經快要變成小蜥蜴了"},{"start":3854.73,"end":3869.364,"text":"但是他還是高度監管可是另外一隻新的大恐龍我們卻看起來並沒有太多的方法可以約束他所以這個就是會對產業產生不公平競爭我們講管制很好但我們也要講發展"},{"start":3870.285,"end":3897.594,"text":"所以我也希望你未來以傳媒的這個專家的角色進到NCC之後能夠對於這個產業的發展過去我也為體育台講過話開過協調會為什麼因為體育台都快活不下去了這個對我們體育迷這個影響很大所以你看我們曾經做過一次讓體育台在廣告上面能夠適度的開放讓他們得以存活不然我們其實為了"},{"start":3899.174,"end":3919.956,"text":"廣告為了限制他的很多東西所以他越來越難活但如果你是在其他平台上他可能沒有這個限制所以這個就是我講的要發展所以希望未來有機會再來繼續救教怎麼樣讓產業的發展能夠得以一個比較在一個公平競爭的角度底下"},{"start":3921.937,"end":3945.145,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝蔡會長發言完畢在葉元之委員發言之前召委再次做個補充說明有關過去NCC委員的審查在過去都是委員出席多人出席然後由委員指定哪位委員上台巡打"},{"start":3945.945,"end":3970.774,"text":"那经过大法官的解释认为这样是违宪所以才有职权刑事法第30条的修订就是有被提名人有诉人者他的答询及说明应分别为之特地在这做个补充说明谢谢现在请叶元之委员发言"},{"start":3980.224,"end":3980.504,"text":"請黃備提名人"},{"start":3989.694,"end":4011.964,"text":"貝皮你們你好 委員早安 您是那個政大的教授是學者出身想必應該是很有理想性但您是不是知道前任的NCC的委員有兩位林立雲王維金在卸任前把NCC批評得簡直一文不明他說NCC嚴重腐化 淪為首長制委員完全沒有決定權"},{"start":4012.924,"end":4031.686,"text":"然後主委有排案權所以主委有很多主導性讓他們這些委員都難以施展抱負跟理想而且他說NCC是空有獨立機關之名因為干預的力量太大那我想能夠干預NCC也只有行政院或者是執政黨"},{"start":4034.229,"end":4040.674,"text":"請問一下如果您進到了這個NCC作為一個委員本身又那麼有理想性遇到這兩個剛剛講的前委員所講的狀況您會有什麼反應嗎"},{"start":4045.031,"end":4067.152,"text":"因為所有的委員的結構全部都改變了我覺得我們要忘記背後努力面前然後我個人還有我這次我們一起的這四位其實我們之前也有做一些的協商就大家都是一個素人出身所以我們希望能夠互相的尊重彼此的專長那也希望委員相信我們"},{"start":4068.012,"end":4093.802,"text":"如果又出現執政黨干預NCC讓NCC空有獨立機關之名那身為學者你會怎麼樣跟執政黨抗拒我想我們應該說不吧但是因為這是個假設性的問題因為是發生的嘛這是兩位前委員講的啊我說說這是可能的狀況啊所以如果您遇到的話你會勇敢跟執政黨說不叫他不要干預NCC的運作"},{"start":4094.796,"end":4103.475,"text":"報告委員之前我有參加過電影分級電影分級沒什麼政治性因為他們主要是講正媒他們講的主要是正媒"},{"start":4106.829,"end":4130.216,"text":"所以學者進到NCC就如果遇到讓你做出非獨立的判斷我覺得大家還是要勇敢的捍衛新聞自由因為貝提名人您是廣電系的教授你是這方面的專業我想請教一下因為這分兩個部分一個是平台的管理另外一個是頻道的管理頻道"},{"start":4132.216,"end":4152.784,"text":"我先問一下現在因為以前政府對於平台或頻道管理比較嚴是因為頻道稀有嘛在早期的時候頻道很少所以管制很嚴格但現在因為數位匯流其實頻道不管是在有線電視或一般無線電視或者是網路頻道是非常多的那個內容是到處都是啊那你認為"},{"start":4154.464,"end":4170.211,"text":"現在我們政府對於廣電的管理不管是頻道或平台它的管理應該要鬆綁嗎還是應該要維持像以前頻道稀有的管理方式報告委員因為台灣是一個跟世界一起同步往前走的國家"},{"start":4170.831,"end":4186.4,"text":"那目前全球在整個的影音媒體跟數位化的這個轉型過程其實是慢慢讓治理的部分趨近雖然沒辦法一致但是是趨近所以我相信在頻道的管理部分事實上它需要有公平正義"},{"start":4187.501,"end":4206.368,"text":"就是在數位化如果做了這麼多魚舉的事那在頻道的部分我們當然希望數位化的這一塊要能夠節制但是在頻道這個部分有一些的經營上面的一些比如說我其實最關心的就是廣告管理我覺得廣告管理"},{"start":4207.128,"end":4230.782,"text":"如果他違背了特定的法規比如說兒少或者是性剝削這個絕對要做管理可是其他的部分我問更精準一點因為我們時間有限我會這樣問是因為我主要我認為因為前一屆的NCC委員自己都承認了他們受到外部干預力量太大空有獨立機關之名中天被關台"},{"start":4232.153,"end":4238.346,"text":"中天被關台那當時他們關台的不給他們換照的理由是說屢次違規內控機制失靈"},{"start":4241.756,"end":4264.658,"text":"是這樣 但實際上根據中天後來去訴訟現在已經26連勝 NCC是26連敗當時的很多處分都被法院打臉我就跟您請教 其中有一個有一個名嘴在中天的政論節目評論陳吉仲是最不適任的 有史以來最不適任主委"},{"start":4265.578,"end":4281.344,"text":"因為這樣子NCC認為中天沒有善盡查證的責任所以就裁罰後來法院已經撤銷了如果你是委員的話你會做出一樣的處分嗎你會去裁罰中天嗎因為名嘴評論陳吉仲是最不適任的主委"},{"start":4283.14,"end":4308.18,"text":"妳會這樣做嗎我覺得這好像應該要判斷吧而且我記得在整個的判決當中應該是16跟7跟3好像不是26連敗我記得我在法院判決書查到如果陳吉仲我剛剛講那個名嘴這樣評論您認為這個名嘴這樣子評論他是不善盡查證責任中天沒有善盡查證責任說要被處罰嗎"},{"start":4310.236,"end":4332.447,"text":"我覺得如果你是委員的話好我覺得這個部分是這樣子他是一個評論但是呢如果是陳其聰委員他可以去告他不要閃避問題啦我現在講的是說您是委員嘛你現在是委員的身份因為你現在是應徵委員嘛對如果你是委員就是可以有裁罰的權利嘛對可是因為這個是一個評論"},{"start":4333.894,"end":4360.879,"text":"所以妳覺得應該被裁罰嗎是一個評論的話其實他要先進入到自律他律的過程所以實際上實際上現在證明說當時裁罰中天很多東西都是因為是不是按照NCC前委員講法是有外部干預力量嘛所以做出這樣裁決嘛那現在中天你不要說幾連敗或幾連勝啦他確實是法院撤銷了很多NCC的處分沒錯嘛"},{"start":4361.559,"end":4387.216,"text":"那NCC之前也花了很多納稅人的錢變了很多訴訟費一直在打官司但是屢戰屢敗請問一下委員提名人如果是您進入到NCC你還會支持一直打官司下去嗎即便是你判斷之後你審視了法官的一些這個撤銷的理由你覺得沒有勝算你還要繼續打下去嗎因為你要花納稅人錢繼續打這個官司嗎"},{"start":4390.236,"end":4412.328,"text":"這個問題是這樣子我覺得我們在做任何的判決跟決定之前我們需要去徵詢各方利益關係人的意見那然後如果NCC有理的話他就需要去堅持他的道理但是如果法院判決認為這個當中需要做調整的話那我們就應該要趕緊其實"},{"start":4414.529,"end":4433.377,"text":"這你講得比較空洞坦白說所有的法院判決通通都已經出來了這個問題應該是可以很具體的回答因為如果有做功課的話應該都有看到法院判決的理由其實法院對於最關鍵的判決是兩個那兩個是說他發回地院跟審所以我們還在等判決沒有 我講的是個別案子的個別的案子"},{"start":4434.877,"end":4455.95,"text":"所以可見你們並沒有去研究所以才回答得比較空泛因為我覺得在公務機關的立場他一定有他自己的堅持我們是希望說可以本於良知獨立行使職權 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員發言完畢現在請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":4469.384,"end":4473.072,"text":"好謝謝主席有請被提名人請被提名人"},{"start":4482.936,"end":4497.301,"text":"好黃教授好早安那個很妙上一次我也是排在議員之委員後面今天又是排在他後面我又要來再一次的更正他的說法了剛剛他又講到這個NCC跟中天的之間的訴訟那這個26其實沒有連敗"},{"start":4501.323,"end":4524.767,"text":"而是26件當中的16件其實就是61.5%它是確定採儲無誤也就是說我們對這個中天的部分有16件是確定已經採儲無誤那另外還有3件還在這個訴訟當中那我想剛剛這個葉允芝委員一直說這個26連敗連講了兩天"},{"start":4527.928,"end":4553.945,"text":"我今天又要再次更正又浪費我一點時間了好 那請教一下我們的黃教授我想現在的孩子他們主要的觀影的習慣已經開始真的大幅的改變了跟我們小時候是完全不一樣的以前我們就只看電視而且當時只有三台但是現在其實不要講說孩子連大人的觀影習慣其實也都有所不同"},{"start":4554.785,"end":4578.737,"text":"我想他們的主要的一些資訊的來源甚至社交的一些活動還有他們現在在網路上不管是抖音也好YouTube也好 IG也好各種不同的短影片的一個平台其實也侵襲到他們的一些所謂的知識的一個傳輸跟他們識讀能力的一些影響其實當家長的我們其實都非常非常的擔心"},{"start":4580.612,"end":4595.428,"text":"但是我想我們現行的監理制度到底能不能夠趕上因為就我們所知道的NCC其實我們是管得到電視台它有分級 那有罰則但是一到了網路我們可能就會變成平台要自律"},{"start":4595.948,"end":4605.254,"text":"或者是要靠業者他們自己來標示那有時候頂多就是所謂的這個警語的提醒那像抖音這樣子的一個所謂的這個國際的平台其實在台灣是連實體的據點都沒有變成我們有一點的無法可管"},{"start":4612.339,"end":4631.448,"text":"那但是他們對於孩子在資訊的傳輸這種input其實是非常非常影響是非常巨大的那我想的孩子天天滑天天看各式各樣不同的一些內容而且他們會片段式的被迫來接收這個其實是我們非常擔心的一個部分我們應該要怎麼防"},{"start":4632.088,"end":4650.836,"text":"那我想這個IWIN他們今年有特別統計這個申訴案件當中那64.3%最後是被判定沒有違法但是明明這些被申訴的案件的內容其實都已經會影響到兒少也不適合兒少那法律上我們其實也管不到"},{"start":4651.776,"end":4673.558,"text":"如果說對這些所謂的沒有違法但明明又是孩子不能看的一些內容我們到底有沒有更有效的一個方法可以來處理如果將來您擔任這個就是我們NCC的這個委員的話那我們是不是應該要有一套是針對這種灰色內容的一個明確的指引或者是管理的準則請教"},{"start":4676.677,"end":4699.959,"text":"其實我們去社區學校服務的時候很多的小學的老師告訴我們孩子使用的狀況甚至國高中但是我發現各級學校各個年齡層是不太一樣的年輕的孩子真的就是看一些流行的短影音但是在國高中的時候他們有一些是為了要查一些考試的資料是"},{"start":4700.419,"end":4715.016,"text":"所以變成在不同年齡層他在使用特定的一些所謂的短音或科技媒體的時候他有一個不一樣的使用動機所以我們在過去iWIN的過程我們會希望分級分齡來做一些處理那目前我們"},{"start":4715.436,"end":4734.85,"text":"當然都希望在至少小學的中低年級甚至在學齡前我們就要開始做這當中的媒體識讀的教育那還有就是在家長的部分我們需要讓家長一起來關心雖然我覺得有的時候有一些家長他也很忙"},{"start":4735.47,"end":4753.437,"text":"那的確這個部分就是在校園上面的教育需要做加強然後那另外就是在國高中的部分我覺得他們是有一些的選擇權的所以我自己是也是媽媽在我的孩子很小的時候我們自己的家是非常的"},{"start":4754.717,"end":4769.186,"text":"嚴密控制但現在很難現在非常難對 因為這可能變成他們社交或者是話題當中的其中的一環是的那當別人都有在看或當別人都知道這些內容他不知道的時候其實在學校也容易產生其他的人際關係的一些問題"},{"start":4770.527,"end":4787.996,"text":"那但是我剛剛一直在強調我說靠業者自律真的有用嗎我們有沒有考慮是不是可以就是嚴格來要求這些所謂的跨國的平台在台灣我們來設立有法可以遵守的這樣子的一個實體那我們有法可管"},{"start":4788.556,"end":4805.254,"text":"這有沒有辦法可以做到我非常贊成因為我們過去在Meta跟Google我們一直希望他們要在台灣不是設立一個行銷人員他需要有一個法務那甚至在這當中有一些其實網路流量是來自於台灣他們需要跟台灣政府做納稅"},{"start":4806.155,"end":4821.195,"text":"可是我也聽到說最後納稅反而那個稅金來自消費者所以這一塊我覺得需要有更多方利益關係人的一個討論因為委員所關心的其實我也非常關心可是我們在處理上面我們要去"},{"start":4822.556,"end":4841.068,"text":"讓台灣呈現出一個民主開放的氛圍但是我們又需要在兒少保護上面做到絕對所以這一塊我希望在各方利益關係人我們多次的討論當中甚至也希望跨部會尤其是在教育部還有在衛生福利部的這一塊能夠一起來關心"},{"start":4841.989,"end":4864.214,"text":"其實這些所謂的演算法的這個兒少的保護機制我覺得我建議啦其實也應該要由這個第三方來做審查然後再來我想這個保護孩子不是只有我們嘴巴上說說而已其實還是要有實際的一些作為那當然我有一些建議啦那我們也可以聽聽看就是說針對未違法但是它不當的一些內容其實我們要採"},{"start":4865.114,"end":4881.263,"text":"比較明確的一個標準然後再來我們要怎麼樣來界定所謂的兒少有害的一個內容把對兒少身心有害的一個內容要明確的定義出來然後納入我們的一些管理然後再來我們要求平台在地負責"},{"start":4881.883,"end":4897.538,"text":"如果已經有平台是在地落地的那其實我們就可以有法可管但沒有的話我們是往剛剛我們提到的這個方向來走就是讓他們能夠在地我們有法可管可以約束然後再來就是我們的演算法是不是也應該要透明"},{"start":4898.138,"end":4917.415,"text":"那由第三方來做審查來做因為這個演算法其實是由業者他們自己本身的那個演算法出來當他划過了這樣子的一個類似的話題他之後可能就會出現在他們的首頁上面那這些演算法我們要怎麼樣來保護這個兒少我們是不是由第三方來做一個審查而且要透明化對 沒錯沒錯"},{"start":4919.036,"end":4941.003,"text":"好那這是我以上的一些建議那我們也樂見喔因為我想這個教授您自己本身之前也非常關心這樣的問題自己也是媽媽跟我一樣我也是媽媽所以其實我們都擔心我們的耳哨在接受這些所謂的這個訊息資訊上的一些接收的時候其實也會產生一些不當的影響那我們一起往這個方向來努力好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":4942.978,"end":4955.765,"text":"謝謝郭益勤委員發言完畢現在請陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員不在現在請羅廷維委員發言謝謝主席有請黃備提名人 請黃備提名人"},{"start":4978.919,"end":4987.675,"text":"好 今天聯席會審查行政院送來NCC的委員被提名人的名單首先 先恭喜被提名人"},{"start":4988.621,"end":5012.05,"text":"人事同意權的審查不僅是檢驗被提名人個人學歷的一個經驗過程更是關乎未來台灣通訊傳播環境是否能夠維持專業中立獨立的一個關鍵NCC作為一個獨立機關肩負著維護整個媒體的多樣性言論自由促進通訊健全的發展"},{"start":5012.87,"end":5029.797,"text":"我想委員的遴選必須符合我們所要求的專業性還有它的代表性更應該不受任何政治的干預我想尤其在當前AI生成的內容迅速的發展趨勢下NCC不僅要面對傳統媒體的一個產業挑戰"},{"start":5030.937,"end":5053.11,"text":"更必須因應整個社群平台的資訊傳播網路假訊息網路的這個媒體試讀的能力等新興的一個課題所以有幾個問題要就教我們被提名人黃薇薇您是這四位被提名人當中唯一具有新聞傳播專業的跟實務經驗的"},{"start":5056.584,"end":5059.751,"text":"我想您也曾擔任iWIN的網路內容的一個防護機構執行長"},{"start":5061.912,"end":5090.862,"text":"外界普遍期待你能夠在保護與自由之間找到更平衡的一個答案您過去在媒體數位傳播以及兒少媒體的安全領域有不少的研究跟發表那近年也有媒體報導您曾指出青少年在使用短影音社群平台可能較少主動查證偏向被動接受請問您如何看待這樣子的一個現象"},{"start":5091.542,"end":5099.349,"text":"您上任後面對這樣的一個問題NCC有什麼具體的做法來提升青少年的一個媒體分辨力"},{"start":5100.538,"end":5128.798,"text":"是委員那個時候的這個應該是兩年前的調查很謝謝委員很關心那我們今年新的調查是發現其實去年也一樣就是在小三到大學的大四在受完整教育的這些在學的學生來講在所謂的網路安全的部分家庭跟法規的部分規範還有一塊叫做他自主的選擇我們發現這兩年他的自主選擇有"},{"start":5130.259,"end":5158.981,"text":"有進步那因此我發現說我們在推動媒體素養媒體識讀教育其實是有成效的那不可否認還是會有一些的遺珠之憾所以這塊我們要繼續的去努力那同樣的在學校的一些相關的法治教育那甚至我另外我們最近還有在推的是美感創意也就是說孩子就是會用這些科技啊因為這就是擋不住"},{"start":5159.501,"end":5173.31,"text":"那他需要去善用他他需要怎麼樣去找到他的興趣去發揮他的創意所以我覺得在這一塊我們可以要他不是只是說這個不好那個不好或是要反思還需要教他怎麼去善用他怎麼去創造發揮自己的創造力"},{"start":5174.411,"end":5194.387,"text":"我想兩年前的調查跟最近的一個調查你說有進步 本席一定認同但是能不能達到一個及格的水準我認為還有一段距離因為畢竟孩子在這個階段還是真的很難主動去查證雖然我們有提供這一類的平臺但是在這個端已經及時的一個平臺"},{"start":5196.509,"end":5213.87,"text":"幾秒當中可能就渲染可能就被動的接受所以我還是希望能夠有具體的做法不只是宣導法治教育在傳播教育的一個政策討論當中有人主張應該要對平台強制揭露推薦的演算法"},{"start":5214.811,"end":5243.373,"text":"內容也要來源標示等這樣子的機制以提升使用者知情權你是否贊成讓使用者能夠看到內容的來源甚至我們昨天也在討論現在AI的時代很多人被AI所生成的一些畫面有所混淆那你認為我們要不要標示這個是AI還是真人或者是演算法為何會被推薦那你贊成嗎"},{"start":5244.765,"end":5264.696,"text":"我贊成標示要透明化同時不要侵犯著作權那另外就是不要侵犯各自隱私好那我們支持贊成那我想尊重你的答案但是要怎麼樣去設定這樣的一個制度它會有什麼樣的一個門檻你有沒有什麼一個具體的"},{"start":5265.682,"end":5288.862,"text":"因為我們最近在推許多的媒體自律然後事實上最近各個媒體都在推那個AI使用的一個自律守則那根據我查的資料其實NCC好像最近也在研議的這一塊那我相信每個科技就是與時俱進所以呢我們還是需要在每個階段去徵詢各方利益關心人"},{"start":5289.542,"end":5318.295,"text":"然後在這當中也要知道科技業者怎麼樣可以用更新的AI的防堵技術或者是查證的技巧但是其實我剛剛一直跟委員講我們在推美感的部分它有一個重點就是要慢思所以我一直提醒我們在做教育的時候是說三思而後行你看了之後你不要急著傳出去否則你就成為假訊息的傳遞者然後也先不要相信先等一下因為現在是資訊爆炸的時代"},{"start":5319.233,"end":5340.629,"text":"其實我自己蠻常接收到假資訊的那傳播假資訊的有可能都是我的親友那因為這些他也認為這個東西好像真的有毒啊這個東西好像真的健康啊好像真的有這個法令啊然後他就傳給我了然後我說你傳給我是要求證嗎他說沒有我傳給你是要提醒你所以他相信了嘛"},{"start":5341.465,"end":5362.837,"text":"那所以我覺得不管是小朋友的相關媒體識讀跟到大人的都是有一定的差距所以剛剛你也提到媒體自律的一個機制我覺得台灣長期存在的意義就是在這個爭議上有人批評自律機制偏弱缺乏落實那您在研究或參與的經驗當中認為目前自律機制最需要強化是哪一部分"},{"start":5363.577,"end":5374.567,"text":"是在網路的這一塊網路這一塊那我認為公開的申訴機制第三方的監督AI的進駐然後來做一個辨識透明度的一個揭露"},{"start":5375.888,"end":5404.827,"text":"不足啦我坦白講那所以我想在NCC維持言論自由媒體多元的前提下我們要怎麼樣去支持或促進媒體自律而避免被視為只是審查者我覺得這個關係角度拿捏當然要很小心但是我認為有必要性去協助這些使用者有一樣的知情權啊或者是能夠辨別那需要NCC再更加的努力好嗎謝謝那是不是"},{"start":5405.816,"end":5432.003,"text":"我再請羅備提名了有到嗎要到下一場嗎對對對好謝謝羅委員跟羅委員謝謝因為委員的說明及答詢要分別為之謝謝現在請林一景委員林一景委員林一景委員不在現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5438.548,"end":5453.682,"text":"不好意思我們的職權形式法30條有明文規定謝謝謝謝羅委員好感謝主席要請我們NCC委員被提名人黃薇薇請黃被提名人早安"},{"start":5466.349,"end":5494.497,"text":"這個我剛看這幾天看一下委員的那個資歷大概我們NCC的委員很久很久沒有專長是傳播的委員被提名的所以我想今天也跟委員請教如果既然您的專長是在傳播第一個我想跟你請教這個台灣目前的那個OTT的相關問題我們的影音串流平台"},{"start":5495.492,"end":5522.441,"text":"因為根據文化部內容測鏡院的統計這幾年來電視和ODT平台使用的趨勢現在看電視的人的頻率從2020年的將近七成69.6%跌到了2023年短短四年跌到了44不到一半所以說下跌的趨勢非常快"},{"start":5523.959,"end":5529.586,"text":"那影音串流收看OTT的則從2020年的三成31.2快速四年內2023年就上升到將近六成"},{"start":5539.93,"end":5553.436,"text":"58.9%不只是黃金交叉這簡直是火箭般的一個是快速的墜落一個是快速的竄升所以未來的OTT的相關問題以及它會對月聽人的影響絕對是會越來越大"},{"start":5557.253,"end":5572.367,"text":"所以我也看一下我們未來的黃委員你對這些事情的看法因為你自己也有寫我看你的報告給我們立委參考的時候你也特別寫到我只是想"},{"start":5574.011,"end":5589.021,"text":"就這樣有一個問題第一個2015年美國的特別301的報告裡面就有指出包括台灣在內大部分都是東南亞的國家中國 印尼 馬來西亞 泰國 越南還有台灣就出現基上河侵權的問題"},{"start":5591.392,"end":5608.351,"text":"幾乎都是東南亞國家全部都看盜版的所謂寄上盒那會買寄上盒的人我相信很多人主要都是為了看免費的影音內容然後這是2015年美國第一次301特別條款把台灣列進來到2023年"},{"start":5612.401,"end":5633.982,"text":"美國仍然把台灣給列進去它其中有美國的報告寫說在全球存在許多非法的IPTV應該就是計算盒這些都是為了要賺錢為目的其中台灣也是其中之一所以台灣大概不斷地在這方面這個其實是"},{"start":5637.322,"end":5644.754,"text":"這等於是一個國際醜聞那數位計算盒目前我們把它當作一個射頻的硬體我們只是檢驗它的這個硬體"},{"start":5648.624,"end":5668.253,"text":"至於它的內容我們並沒有辦法查驗所以它裡面都是假的都是盜版的我們也沒有無法目前看起來就是無法可管不曉得您對這個問題的看法我記得在電信管理法當中前一次三讀通過了有關於"},{"start":5669.733,"end":5682.903,"text":"網路的那個接取方面在科技上面的一個修正需要做登記那另外就是因為之前也協助一些的媒體的創作者去爭取這當中被盜版的問題"},{"start":5684.424,"end":5699.145,"text":"所以我覺得智慧財產權是非常重要當然這個部分還需要經濟部制裁局一起來參與關心這個很重要因為他不是只有NCC做包含速發部還有整個的制裁局的這一塊那甚至警政署進來"},{"start":5700.066,"end":5722.873,"text":"如果是涉及到我們所擔心的一些風險的話那我個人是認為說比如說我們講到我們與二的距離他在第一季的時候是跟國際的OT平台合作可是他在這一季做得也很好他是跟國內的OTT平台合作所以我希望說如果我們要在這個當中納入法規的時候我們一定要公平境內境外需要一致"},{"start":5723.453,"end":5746.828,"text":"那不要去扼殺了境內可能的一個機會但是我們又要讓境外不要來干擾我們所以這個部分還是一樣要遵循多方利益關係人的意見所以委員你講的就是網際網路視聽服務法你講的是這個草案的但很可惜這個法案目前並沒有還沒有通過"},{"start":5749.147,"end":5772.561,"text":"所以未來你擔任委員的時候我想你應該要來推動台灣要來通過這種網際網路視聽服務法其中有一個爭議點就是境外的大型平台怎麼處理境外世界最出名的Netflix或像中國的騰訊 愛奇藝對於這些的管理 你的看法"},{"start":5773.459,"end":5800.412,"text":"報告委員其實我們有一位參與的一位老師有特別講到說事實上Netflix他在美國現在一直想要轉手抖售沒有人要買那其實台灣在引進過去電視的時候我們原來已經彩色電視機國外出來但是台灣先被侵入了黑白電視機然後隔了幾年我們才進入到彩色電視機時代所以我非常的抗拒"},{"start":5801.212,"end":5830.124,"text":"一些先進的國家雖然我們現在也是先進國家他把他已經要淘汰的一些科技或是服務丟回台灣我覺得這個部分是絕對抗拒的因此怎麼樣去健全台灣的產業秩序甚至給我們的產業有一個更好的發展空間我覺得這個問題是這些國這些境外的OTD在台灣它有很多的訂閱者也有很多的消費者但如果發生了問題"},{"start":5831.224,"end":5851.048,"text":"發生了消費糾紛因為這些公司根本在台灣都沒有落地包括Netflix也一樣你現在打它的客服都是海外的電話我要講的是說是這個部分的問題那你沒有辦法它現在確實存在它沒有落地還是存在那政府怎麼管理"},{"start":5851.963,"end":5880.87,"text":"跨經業者在地化對我記得你的主張是要在地化他應該要落地來申請落地申請以後那我們怎麼樣來處理相關的問題包括他的內容其實很多我們也擔心的是有包括涉及中共統戰的一些內容的疑慮是不是所以這個部分我希望在未來的網際網路的這個服務法裡面可以有相關的一些"},{"start":5882.783,"end":5898.047,"text":"條文的規範能夠來處理相關的問題 那樣妳的看法呢 妳覺得呢我贊成 也希望委員要派代表來一起發言參與好 謝謝你啦好 謝謝主席好 謝謝林俊憲委員 發言完畢好 接下來我們請李坤澤召委發言"},{"start":5911.649,"end":5915.984,"text":"謝謝林俊憲主席 請下黃倍提名人我們請黃倍提名人"},{"start":5924.126,"end":5945.328,"text":"黃碧婷議員你好 我看在你的回覆及相關的說明你對於媒體的意見就是說媒體應該受到公平的規範跟相關的秩序但是我一直沒看到說你有明確的這一種要將OTT的平台全面的納入監管以及相關的義務來請你簡單說明一下"},{"start":5948.447,"end":5971.302,"text":"最主要是因為我覺得我在看到OTT的表現的時候我對於境外的OTT我一直是非常的關注我希望它不要影響到台灣整個產業的自主但是我覺得這幾年我們看到三大電信業者的一些OTT平台有在提升改善所以因此它納管的過程當中"},{"start":5973.222,"end":5988.248,"text":"我會希望它能夠是就像剛剛跟報告的就是我希望境內境外要公平一致我不希望說我們立了一個法是利益良善結果最後守法的反而是規範了我們自己然後境外的"},{"start":5989.068,"end":6015.547,"text":"就都逃逸我覺得這個會對我們自己的業者不公平這是我比較擔心的對 這樣的擔心我覺得我們必須要去面對就是說的確還是有許多的OTT網路串流平台其實它在台灣的是屬於境外的平台那它並沒有被納入傳統的這一種廣電的監理架構那其實我們看國際上我看"},{"start":6016.367,"end":6029.252,"text":"有些國家他其實已經規定了他們必須要負擔一定比例的本地內容有有那或者是設立在地的辦公室甚至啊"},{"start":6030.457,"end":6059.269,"text":"為了在地文化的發展他們也設置了文化發展會這在韓國或是歐洲都有這樣的一個例子那他們這種文化發展會就是主要他們是要強調這種文化的主權跟內容的多元那其實我看你在答覆中你一直強調說媒體要受公平的規範及相關的這種制度化的一個治理"},{"start":6060.009,"end":6078.946,"text":"那對OTT平台的監理的這樣的一個措辭比較含糊一點那我希望你能夠更具體的說明你是否支持將境外OTT的平台納入台灣的傳播的監理框架"},{"start":6079.997,"end":6103.593,"text":"我覺得可以納入一個部分當然我們希望雖然境外的他們的分級跟我們有一些差距但是還是要有標示好那這個部分我們可能需要做一些處理那我更具體的請教你你認為在地化責任應該具備怎樣的基本義務具體的義務有一個行銷人員而已他需要在這當中有團隊還有就是"},{"start":6104.514,"end":6127.987,"text":"境外的OTT平台它需要有一定的屬於台灣自己在地的內容其實說實話在2017年當然 你在內容介入方面或者是要設立集合的窗口甚至是本土內容的一個比例甚至是資訊介入的責任這都是必須要去做面對那我請教一下黃北提名你具體的看法是什麼呢"},{"start":6128.891,"end":6147.931,"text":"具體的看法就是我剛剛要講的是我們在2017年AIT有找我們大家一起去跟Netflix的副總裁來台灣他那時候想要大型推Netflix那時候我們的一致的一個要求就是那你Netflix不能只播外內容你要有台灣的節目"},{"start":6148.832,"end":6175.211,"text":"是我覺得這個部分就是在地化的責任還有就是設立辦事處然後需要跟台灣政府這當中台灣的流量是很大的需要納稅但是這個納稅我希望它不要轉嫁到我們自己台灣的消費者因為現在我們發現在Meta這一塊它是轉嫁到台灣的消費者這個部分我覺得對台灣來講消費者是權益受損"},{"start":6175.991,"end":6202.187,"text":"所以我就會覺得在立法的過程我們要更細緻對 像這種串流平台它要面對的在地化的一個責任也是NCC未來要面對的一個嚴肅的課題那我再請教一下黃倍提名人你也指出這種媒體使用AI生成新聞的內容那應該是要以透明揭露它是一個基本的原則"},{"start":6203.291,"end":6220.913,"text":"那業者應該要自律的自律來建立他相關的審核機制避免讓AI傷害這種公共的信任但是我們要具體去了解他們相關AI新聞的生成的過程內容以及相關的資訊"},{"start":6222.194,"end":6245.099,"text":"相關的業者通常是以這種這是他們各公司的商業機密為理由不願意來做透露那其實我們更要面對的是一個更嚴肅的議題就是說台灣目前的確是沒有建立具有法律強制力的一個AI內容的標示"},{"start":6245.839,"end":6274.327,"text":"或是审核的一个制度多数的媒体还是号称要依赖内部的自律跟指引而不是外部的一个具体的规范其实媒体我想黄贝提米也应该很清楚现在很多的媒体很多的新闻已经使用AI撰稿或者是AI的合成主播或者是AI的辅助剪辑跟影像的生成"},{"start":6276.664,"end":6296.542,"text":"很多委員都一再的請教你就是說觀眾無法知道我們看的新聞是不是是AI所產生的其實你在過去你也提到過你在淘寶中也說明這種透明的揭露或者是人工審核的原則"},{"start":6297.711,"end":6314.741,"text":"那我更進一步請教你你是否認為說在廣電法或者是未廣法或相關的傳播法當中來增進AI生成新聞或者是內容必須公開標示的一個法律的義務來請黃貝提名的人說明一下"},{"start":6316.042,"end":6336.953,"text":"是我覺得他在進程目前是在推動自律然後當案例重複出現是很多風險的時候這個時候他律跟法律就要進來因為我們剛剛有談到就是台灣在整個數位匯流的過程網路跟頻道的管制其實是差距很大我們希望要有公平正義"},{"start":6337.918,"end":6350.193,"text":"你現在說媒體的智力你認為目前智力的狀況如何是否符合民眾知道這種新聞是否是AI所生成的這樣一個基本的原則"},{"start":6350.879,"end":6379.108,"text":"好 目前我們有要求在整點播出新聞需要透明化那他要查證還有就是不要侵權嘛因為有些是他人的肖像權他用AI生成也是蠻奇怪的那另外就是在節目的部分我覺得如果他已經把AI當成一個製作團隊的話那他在節目後面的字幕他需要排出來說他哪些部分是使用AI生成的好 謝謝謝謝貝提米娜好 謝謝理工政委員"},{"start":6386.787,"end":6389.909,"text":"現在請何欣淳委員發言好 謝謝趙偉 李坤澤 趙偉我們是不是請這個提名人黃薇薇女士現在請黃貝提名人"},{"start":6411.34,"end":6435.581,"text":"來 薇薇女士妳早老師早我想今天很多委員 不分黨派都在關心這個所謂的AI生成因為這牽涉到的就是我們NCC委員所處理的是跟我們民生非常息息相關尤其大家認為的打擊詐騙這個跟AI生成 影片還有跟虛偽真假難辨的這樣子"},{"start":6437.463,"end":6456.84,"text":"影片 語音等等都是一樣的那包括詐騙手法我曾經好幾次都是在要求這個NCC要跨部會的跟其他部會合作那我們可以做的部分怎麼樣配合打詐國家隊去打詐因為詐騙是國人最深通誤覺的"},{"start":6458.141,"end":6472.738,"text":"事情那到目前為止走訪民間基層我相信啦九成以上的台灣國人還是認為詐騙橫行我們政府還需要再更加強力道去打詐所以"},{"start":6473.078,"end":6501.6,"text":"包括要補足語音警示的漏洞等等下一頁還有我們在審查電信法的時候之前有兒少的問題那兒少的性犯罪網站我想沸沸揚揚而且我們發現是真的網站的手法日循月異剝削了這個兒少而且讓我們很多的家長惶惶不安那對於政府到底能不能防止"},{"start":6502.674,"end":6519.824,"text":"守護孩子我相信很多的家長更是希望政府要做所以我也連續好幾次比如說我要求你們在電信管理法裡面有所謂的即時封網的機制那即時封網的機制我想你一定同意因為我記得"},{"start":6521.065,"end":6550.194,"text":"也看了你的著作你的專長就在跟兒少保護這跟網路之間的一個連結跟我們的這個法制那這個部分即時封網我覺得做得還不夠好現在都還有時間上的落差那我們的保護兒少權益不是只有用口頭講是要實際的做得到政府如果能夠在這樣子的一個即時封網的行動上能夠做得到而且呢做到讓人民有感"},{"start":6550.894,"end":6567.663,"text":"大家才會覺得國家政府是真的有在守護保護兒少郭委員你認為你同意嗎非常同意而且我覺得當我們發現這個網址有問題的時候我們需要跟TWNIC請他立刻封網"},{"start":6568.696,"end":6594.131,"text":"對 但是我希望你未來成為NCC委員之後你要好好的去要求即時封網這四個字字面上看起來好像是即時可是實際上你去檢視一下現行的程序不是即時封網我們說的24小時內的封網這個程序到底到不到位能不能做到其實這個就是你的責任"},{"start":6595.1,"end":6616.989,"text":"你承諾做得到嗎你願意盡你的職責去要求嗎我當然要竭力而為啊我當然希望台灣的孩子更好啊是那就拜託未來你擔任NCC委員的時候好好的再去盤點檢視一下現在相關的程序我們希望呢兒少性犯罪的相關的網站一旦被查獲一旦發現"},{"start":6618.49,"end":6629.78,"text":"我們的即時封網這個還牽涉到跟各平台的一個溝通的效率問題所以這是你的職責未來希望你能夠做得到"},{"start":6630.834,"end":6657.52,"text":"接下來除了詐騙跟兒少其實這兩個層面都跟我們現在民眾生活當中的AI使用剛剛很多委員都在談AI生成影片但是我們的民眾真的準備好了嗎我不知道因為我們現在發現在網站上面有太多真假難辨的譬如說曾經有媒體報導六成以上的使用者認為他很擔憂這個網路的使用"},{"start":6658.3,"end":6680.638,"text":"那AI生成現在我們看到在不同的網站尤其在LINE群組裡面好多的我們的長輩他收到了很多我要養生我要健康但是很多養生健康的資訊真假難辨那甚至我想也有印象也有很多的名醫他的肖像他的照片"},{"start":6681.218,"end":6705.138,"text":"被AI生成在某些保健品的推廣上或是某些保健這個訊息資訊上然後那個民醫都會跳出來說 那不是我 那不是我那問題是大家不知道怎麼分辨啊除了在公衛就是在這個健康影片 養生影片在公衛體系會造成這樣的隱憂我想下一頁"},{"start":6706.345,"end":6734.228,"text":"不是只有一個層面是幾乎生活中的層面無所不在包括我們的媒體現在也都大量在使用AI那很多廣告現在開始也在用AI生成影片那這些呢確實技術越好但是呢辨識度國人的辨識度好像不怎麼好所以如果你當NCC委員之後你要怎麼辦"},{"start":6735.851,"end":6759.062,"text":"你認為該怎麼辦的確 我覺得有一些部分可能是跟垃圾郵件相關的一些規範可以去做細緻的一個審視那另外一個部分就是因為剛剛有委員問過你你會認為說現在是自律那未來如果這個樣態太多然後侵害的個案太多那就變成他律跟法治"},{"start":6760.042,"end":6774.109,"text":"那現在還在自律可是我們看到這整個在網站上在我們國人的手機上LINE群組上各式各樣的平台上我們看到太多真偽難辨的影片"},{"start":6775.109,"end":6803.491,"text":"那怎麼辦目前是有一個網路自律聯盟正在處理類似的一些事那當然還有iWIN那我覺得這個部分如果做得不足的話其實我們還是需要在跨部會做滾動式的檢討是 所以我現在就要告訴你政策已經落後技術了那我們NCC之前承諾要研議要定一個所謂的使用AI的指引你認為呢"},{"start":6805.376,"end":6813.401,"text":"當然應該要做然後還有滾動式調整但是從2023年5月說到現在還沒有你認為這個效率好嗎我們的AI技術都已經日新月異了結果我們承諾從2023的5月承諾說要研議到現在2025的10月了"},{"start":6832.912,"end":6861.608,"text":"我們還沒有看到草案你認為這樣的效率夠好嗎所以我覺得他需要一個存活治理的一個行動力要非常快速的去因應的面對所以2025的4月你們承諾在第三季要推現在也過了第三季已經進入第四季了我也還沒看到所以如果你當NCC委員的拜託這一件事情請把它當作最要緊的事最應該要處理的事情"},{"start":6863.141,"end":6890.078,"text":"廣真意見媒體學者專家我覺得這個都應該做的過程但是一個你們承諾的這個使用AI的指引確實要趕快不管是其他委員剛剛問過的您說應該要加注什麼什麼有指引之後就要有具體的措施有具體的措施我們才能夠防範這些惡意的AI生成影片起碼能夠讓國人知道如何辨識"},{"start":6892.056,"end":6917.837,"text":"有基本的辨識啊這是很重要的好不好最後一頁最後我剛剛講到的你們還有另外欠我們國人一件事我剛剛說兒少犯罪網站及時封網要求你要承諾未來當NCC委員之後要有效率去盤點檢視相關的程序你們的通傳政策白皮書應該要趕快訂稿發布之前我就曾經問過你們從"},{"start":6920.984,"end":6937.313,"text":"民國100年的9月有這個政策白皮書然後也通過了一個所謂的兒少通訊傳播權益政策白皮書到目前為止還沒有定稿發布這個是一件讓人家覺得非常"},{"start":6938.514,"end":6950.642,"text":"遺憾而且覺得應該要好好的克責我們NCC所以希望你擔任委員之後這也是你的專業請讓NCC的通傳政策兒少的白皮書守護兒少"},{"start":6952.061,"end":6966.074,"text":"趕快訂稿發布好不好好以上謝謝謝謝何慶淳委員發言完畢我們先做以下宣告等一下等到陳素月委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘現在請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":6980.696,"end":6984.017,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們黃備提名人黃教授好教授我過去也在媒體工作過那我記得那時候我們在學校念的這個新聞倫理跟現在好像差距越來越遠了教授自己在學校任教有沒有這樣的一個感受問題"},{"start":7010.409,"end":7028.301,"text":"我覺得我們大概都會用很多的案例去跟同學一起的討論然後現在的同學其實跟我們以前做學生也有一點不一樣他們會有很多不同的想法我們就會一起去討論出有哪一些可以去做的是的我想尤其我們政大是過去培養我們很多"},{"start":7029.28,"end":7049.153,"text":"這個傳播從業人員很重要的一個學術的一個學校嘛那尤其是這個最近的這個很多的新聞節目為了收視率掛帥那甚至在評論跟報導的這個方向越來越重點就是這個走的方向跟我們過去的這個在學校所學的真的是截然不同"},{"start":7049.693,"end":7067.64,"text":"那甚至有時候變成這個在社會上帶風向影響語論的一個很重的一個工具的一個管道那所以所以我想很多的我們的社會大眾對於新聞自由跟散佈不實資訊的一個界線也搞不清楚啦那所以我想國家"},{"start":7068.3,"end":7093.074,"text":"不能也不應該事先審查媒體的內容但是在媒體有明顯的失衡誤導這個社會大眾的時候主管機關應該也不能袖手判官被提名人贊成這樣的一個論調嗎贊成因為在新聞自律的時候其實有很多的所謂的犯罪手法是不可以揭露的那如果媒體一直重複去這樣做的時候其實是的確是需要做檢討"},{"start":7094.343,"end":7109.691,"text":"我想這個我們最近也看到有一些這個模仿的一個犯罪手法的一個問題甚至這個有人把他當一些這個犯罪人把他當偶像的一個崇拜去模仿這樣的一個犯罪事實我想這不應該啦所以"},{"start":7110.091,"end":7138.222,"text":"媒體的這個自律跟所謂的一個整個在這個媒體教育上面我想我們應該要重新再檢視 那未來您如果這個獲選 獲聘成我們NCC委員之後 如何強迫我們這個新聞自律的機制 是不是考慮建立一個分級的一個裁罰標準 讓我們的監理更有公信力 而不是事後引起這樣的一個不透明的評鑑 換照制度造成一個政治的一個紛爭 被提問請說明一下"},{"start":7139.883,"end":7163.922,"text":"因為我們目前參與所謂監督自律的過程中我們所有的發言全部都要公開上網然後每個人要做一個負責任的發言所以我覺得如果到時候我們有一些的節目諮詢委員會的話他也需要透明化然後更重要是這個成員其實抱歉我覺得很重要就是各方利益關係人"},{"start":7165.003,"end":7187.861,"text":"我覺得他需要多養那這樣的話才能夠蒐集到多方面的意見因為尤其我們現在這個政論節目也很多我們的名嘴好像每一樣都可以談這個到底是談的是怎麼樣一個方向我想這個都值得要去審視一下尤其目前我們AI時代這個假訊息的問題也是我們一個很嚴重的一個國安問題那臺灣已經連續11年"},{"start":7190.883,"end":7212.356,"text":"被全球列為這個境外假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家那尤其剛剛我們幾位委員在特別提到這個AI模仿名人的這個宣傳尤其廣告哇 很多啦那有些我們鄉下的老人家看到在買AI的時候都說哇 這什麼人推薦的就會想要去買我覺得這個真的是很嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":7213.297,"end":7234.186,"text":"那未來針對這樣的一個不限制創新應用的一個情況之下我們怎麼樣去做一個媒體的一個AI辨識的一個技術這個部分請說明一下報告委員其實我覺得在頻道的這一塊現在我們已經有一些相關的法制那當然還需要再與時俱進在網路的部分"},{"start":7235.006,"end":7251.662,"text":"我們之前有一個中華無店面的廣告協會然後這當中他會讓他的會員在網路廣告這當中做一些相關的共識跟自律還有一些的守則那我覺得目前有一些已經像是垃圾郵件"},{"start":7252.302,"end":7275.26,"text":"那這一類的AI的假訊息的部分包含我們的我們自己都還會收到一堆莫名其妙的訊息那這個部分需要在能夠落入這當中的一個指引原則那另外如果以政大來講我們學校的電話中心整天就發一堆假訊息給我們為什麼因為他要測試我們老師因應資安的"},{"start":7276.161,"end":7295.497,"text":"反應如果我們沒有中計的話他就會告訴我們說剛剛那個的確是假訊息千萬不要回應所以我覺得各個單位他在因應假訊息的一些預防的部分還這個付權的一個實作部分也許可以要加強因為真的太快太多了"},{"start":7295.817,"end":7320.148,"text":"所以這應該就是我們剛提到就是說這個我們自己本身的這個認知的部分要特別強化一下 任性很重要尤其像教授你都沒辦法判辯怎麼去教學生怎麼去辨別 是的這我想很重要那未來是不是有計畫跟速發部或是教會部一起合作建立一個媒體AI使用的倫理規範或者是一個新聞標示的一個制度這部分您的看法"},{"start":7320.828,"end":7340.983,"text":"我覺得還當務之急 當務之急所以您上任之後應該要積極推動這個事情我想我們再談一下這個國內的影視產業尤其現在的傳統的電視觀眾持續的下滑當然網路平台的崛起造成很多本土的節目被演算法掩埋"},{"start":7342.924,"end":7366.426,"text":"那所以我想這個商業市場上面當然這個國際的一個串流的一個巨頭林立那但是我想我們本土的一個節目的一個文化議題還有一個通傳的一個公平的議題我想未來還是需要大力的支持那您贊成未來在這個政策上面怎麼樣針對這個OTT的平臺提升本土的一個節目的錄製比例嗎"},{"start":7366.966,"end":7388.871,"text":"我覺得提升本土內容跟產業競爭力一定是當務之急因為我我們認識的一些學生畢業生都在這個產業那剛剛也有談到就是說讓他的這個服務辦事處不要只是一個虛擬的而是能夠落實這個就是說能夠在地責任化這樣是"},{"start":7390.071,"end":7416.352,"text":"那我想我們最後我們還是有發現到我們目前的監理的模式要遠遠的落後我們的現實那用過去的一個傳統的傳輸的一個技術區分管理已經沒辦法做一個規範那未來應該是不是NCC要朝向一個風險分級內容一致平臺中立的一個方向調整我想被提名的人未來上任之後是不是應該朝這個方向來努力讓我們的制度跟時代來接軌"},{"start":7417.472,"end":7441.88,"text":"是 而且能夠幫助整個產業數位轉型這個非常重要好 那就期待我們的備體移民人未來我們一起來努力讓我們這個新聞倫理可以做得更好謝謝好 謝謝徐物魁委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言再重申一次陳樹越委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘"},{"start":7450.233,"end":7454.195,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們黃貝提名人你好 早安你好 今天算是我們第二天的議程那其實我星期一的時候大概前兩位提名人也都有詢問那今天我的問題其實我在第一天也都有說會差不多啦但最主要就是一些可能對新聞媒體上面的一些意見的交流"},{"start":7479.264,"end":7502.266,"text":"因為可能NCC這幾年被社會媒體廣泛討論得到這麼大的關注度就是大家對於NCC的一個獨立性大家受到質疑所以說今天來跟這個有關新聞媒體的監管提出一些問題那第一個就是說第四權的問題這個國外俗稱第四權國內也是俗稱第四權那您對於第四權的理解"},{"start":7504.813,"end":7534.319,"text":"是 我們從大一開始就有談到就是告知娛樂守望然後還有交流溝通那因此第四權我發現我們在立法院大家目前比較關注的都是新聞媒體其實第四權也包含許多的節目創意的這一塊那如果說在新聞媒體這一方面您對於第四權的瞭解為什麼他會被賦予第四權這樣子的一個期待或是或者是社會地位"},{"start":7534.659,"end":7562.359,"text":"是因為他會需要守望這個守望包含大風大雨今天委員們很辛苦全部都大風大雨跑來那這是一個天氣天災的一個一個預報跟一個告知那當然另外就是說在公共政策上面的一些的監督還有傳遞好那您自己在國內自己在國內或者說您在這個業界這麼這個學術界這麼久了那您對於國內地市權的一個期待"},{"start":7565.261,"end":7585.576,"text":"國內第四權的期待我們當然希望在整個傳播生態當中台灣是處於因為正在NCC的職責來講他應該是一個多元文化的展現但是呢維護消費者權益跟健全產業秩序這當中三為一體要有平衡那至於對於政府的一個監督的一個角度呢"},{"start":7587.253,"end":7615.005,"text":"政府監督的話如果他是一個就事院士的理性問政或負責任的一個報導我覺得是OK的還是要經過查證是好那因為其實國內當然這個全世界都一樣現在的媒體生態常常就是會有一些意識形態那並不是說意識形態是不對的很正常每個人都有意識形態那只是說我們在什麼這樣怎麼樣子在一個新聞倫理上面既有可能保存自己的意識形態沒有關係但是也要保持我們的新聞的倫理"},{"start":7615.825,"end":7644.705,"text":"那其實國內的民眾普遍對於這個國內的新聞媒體就算他有意識形態也沒關係但是對於新聞邏輯上面大家都是可能給一些比較負面的一些評價啦那對於這些國內的新聞媒體的生態啦因為你未來會是NCC可能是NCC的一個委員嘛那你可能必須要有獨立性你也是一個監管的一個角色那我是希望您是不是能夠敢於對於現在的媒體的生態提出你的一些觀察跟你的批判"},{"start":7646.785,"end":7675.631,"text":"我覺得如果在我的職責範圍跟我可以控制的範圍內我一定會這樣做因為對我來說其實我還蠻喜歡我目前跟我們的年輕學生在一起那能夠被提名我也覺得很榮幸因為我覺得對我來說就是一個公共服務只是他的對象開始有不一樣的一些對於未來你會被監督的這些新聞媒體那你的對於他們現況的一些批判你有辦法提出來嗎"},{"start":7677.557,"end":7693.423,"text":"我覺得要看是什麼因為我自己也是新聞記者出身所以我在我們那個時代我們會覺得說言論自由然後還有負責任的言論甚至這當中公共利益是很重要的"},{"start":7693.963,"end":7708.327,"text":"因此要看這當中是有沒有影響到其他人的人身安全或國家安全那但是又要經過查證所以他是一個很多面向一個動態性 國內目前的生態可能比較缺乏哪一部分你認為需要再加強的國內喔"},{"start":7711.587,"end":7740.286,"text":"我覺得國內我們需要的是我自己希望能夠扮演的是一個溝通平台讓大家能夠誠心誠意理性的溝通而不要都是從網路上面社群平台的一個同溫層當中得到訊息然後大家就永遠都聚焦在自己的某一些角度的思考而希望能夠真實的去面對一些不理解的地方溝通清楚我覺得這很重要"},{"start":7740.566,"end":7763.869,"text":"那其實在NCC上面可能大家就會認為說有點的光譜會有兩端嘛一個是監管 一個是言論的自由那您認為在於新聞自由跟NCC的監管秩序它的一個界線應該在哪一邊我想就是三綠共管嘛自律為先然後當自律它一直出現問題的時候他律跟法律就要介入是的那你認為怎樣超過了自律的一個範疇"},{"start":7765.36,"end":7790.052,"text":"就是我們目前的做法是說因為按照姜愉樺那個時候的法規來看就是所有在媒體當中他的這個自律是根據他自己新聞室的自律守則那因此我們在擔任他們的自律委員的時候我們會根據他的自律守則去看你自己有沒有違反自律公約然後還有沒有違反一些相關的廣電法或衛廣法會用這個角度去看"},{"start":7790.609,"end":7799.582,"text":"好 那最後兩個小問題那您對於當初中天換照的時候NC的決策 您認為是否有被政治力所干預"},{"start":7800.762,"end":7819.28,"text":"好 其實因為我沒有真正參與我只有稍微轉播看了一下然後因為說實話台灣有的時候常覺得大家都不太開心常在針鋒相對是那因此我以前我是最愛看新聞我後來就比較喜歡去看不同的一些即時報導這樣子"},{"start":7821.062,"end":7846.895,"text":"那因此那時候片面當中看到但是我這次有去查因為這有問題嘛我有去查法院的判決書那當然有最關鍵的兩則判決當然就是最高法院他針對這當中的一些那個評分機制希望能夠回到台北地院重新去做判斷因此我覺得這個部分我們就是要尊重法院的判決然後NCC跟著做因應"},{"start":7847.655,"end":7873.947,"text":"因為您剛剛有說就是一個媒體的監管跟言論自由的一個界線那你認為中天他有沒有超過言論自由的一個界線導致於需要到監管的一個程度那至於這個評斷標準就會影響到是不是因為有外地的介入導致這條界線是不是有變動的情形委員是這樣子我們看到社群平台其實有兩方觀點"},{"start":7875.385,"end":7903.765,"text":"當然有一方會認為有有一方會認為因為好像過去有一些所謂跟兒少或婦女 婦幼的一些相關比較維護人權的一些爭議那但是如果我有機會進去我需要去看相關所有的一些原來申訴開會討論的一些記錄所以現在你還沒有辦法給你的定界有或沒有我只能說我尊重法院的判決因為我覺得這是必須要做的好 OK 謝謝謝謝貝提米蘭 謝謝主席"},{"start":7904.827,"end":7925.9,"text":"好 謝謝廖謙祥委員發言完畢現在請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃薇薇被提名人請黃被提名人"},{"start":7934.914,"end":7955.196,"text":"黃碑提名人 早安本席看您的專長就是有傳播倫理法規與媒體 嗜讀野生跟兒少網路安全等傳播類別我想在NCC這個獨立機關是很需要這樣子的一個專業專長本席在這邊想先請教"},{"start":7956.017,"end":7973.28,"text":"黃被提名人就是我們看到在兩個禮拜前就是在台北車站的大廳發生一起非常離譜的性侵案件在這個光天化日之下發生的那當被這個路過的遊客發現之後報警"},{"start":7974.02,"end":7997.227,"text":"才來處理這個案件可是在這個案件事發之後竟然這個犯罪的一個影像就在網路社群傳播就是在社群的網站上被轉傳散佈然後甚至有媒體在報導這起性侵案件的時候也直接使用這些性侵的一個畫面我想這樣子的一個新聞的處理讓本席非常的驚訝也覺得非常的不可思議"},{"start":8002.549,"end":8026.189,"text":"那我們知道說這樣子的一個影片是不能散佈的雖然他有打上了這個馬賽克那我想就是說就您在這個就是傳播倫理法規的這樣子的一個專長您的看法對這一則新聞的一個處理您的看法如何當然我覺得他這個部分雖然有打馬賽克那當然說實話"},{"start":8028.211,"end":8057.611,"text":"大家都很忙那有時候在網路當中真的是往海可是因為我們有在一些的這叫做網路自律的一個群組那另外還有一個就是比較是電視自律的群組這當中就有婦女婦幼團體提出然後說希望我們趕快協商做下架所以後來我們從網路新聞自律還有包含在這個衛星公會這邊就立刻做下架那的確這個部分是"},{"start":8058.731,"end":8070.098,"text":"不可為啊是不可為那如果說您是ACC的委員你會怎麼做處理如果他沒有下架的話那就是按照衛光法二七條第四款"},{"start":8071.43,"end":8096.81,"text":"就是沒有下架就是會處分可是他已經使用了的話也是會涉及處罰的部分那還要看那個內容因為如果他是有達瑪賽克我們會覺得說不是達瑪賽克就可以播出那但是的確現在在法規當中他是說你赤裸裸的話那的確就是違法可是如果是達瑪賽克這當中就是一個倫理的部分所以他需要立刻下架"},{"start":8097.41,"end":8118.789,"text":"是好那我們看到這一則就是性侵害案件的一個新聞報導除了電視之外網路上面的新聞也有播出這樣子的一個畫面那我們NCC對於就是這個廣電媒體就是一個監理單位嘛那在網路媒體的部分呢我們NCC可以做怎樣的一個處理"},{"start":8120.419,"end":8142.307,"text":"網路媒體的部分就是目前NCC我的了解因為也有在參與一個網路新聞自律的成員之一現在有一個網路新聞自律團體好像是9月1號開始成立的那這個部分我覺得目前還不錯是蠻多的網路原生媒體的夥伴有來參與那包含"},{"start":8143.688,"end":8153.607,"text":"公廣或商業媒體的這個網路部分他們也有來進來所以我覺得目前NCC其實有在做這一塊那但是呢可能"},{"start":8155.741,"end":8174.733,"text":"現在在網路上面很多的社群信息有一些如果牽扯到是境外的部分那這個部分可能就要請TWNIC要做一些封網是 好那我們也希望就是說在這個部分我們NCC就是說可以有比較積極性的一個協助跟作為"},{"start":8175.914,"end":8194.176,"text":"那另外我看您的這個經歷您曾經在iWIN就是網路內容防護計畫機構擔任過執行長在2013到2016年將一段時間那我們知道就是說iWIN是在就是協助"},{"start":8195.217,"end":8220.475,"text":"這個NCC為了防止這個兒少接觸有害身心發展的網路內容所籌設的一個機構主要是受理有害兒少身心健康的網路內容的一個相關的一個申訴包括就是色情暴力恐怖血腥等等那艾文是被動的受理申訴受理之後就是通知業者來下架那沒有辦法對業者做出任何的一個處罰"},{"start":8221.756,"end":8244.456,"text":"那就是因為iWIN不具備這個公權力只能通知下架沒有辦法開罰所以對於這樣子的一個被動受理申訴的成效如何是不是可以請您先說一下其實我覺得這個部分是這樣子就是說因為iWIN最早是從WIN網路單一窗口過來它有點像是一個省政信箱的概念就是讓大家"},{"start":8245.137,"end":8259.455,"text":"通報通報之後趕快進入到跨部會是社政單位或警政單位要立刻做處理因此我覺得在這一塊有一些也許是屬於新聞自律的部分是我覺得如果跟"},{"start":8260.376,"end":8283.878,"text":"NCC所主管的一些監理的一些媒體有關是可以做的那但是在網路的這個部分那它還牽扯到跨國平台所以這裡面現在我們正在我注意到正在做的是用網路新聞自律的這一塊那個聯盟那我相信這個聯盟它是才成立一兩個月吧應該可能可以有更積極的作為"},{"start":8284.378,"end":8312.211,"text":"那iWIN的部分就要看它會是併位在一個省政信箱的概念還是它有公權力我會覺得如果是有公權力的話會有一些需要再徵詢大家的意見因為事實上還是會有不同跨部會的主管業務涉及在其中對 因為問您這個問題就是說如果你得到支持的話就是會成為正式的NCC委員那因為iWIN之前也算是"},{"start":8313.391,"end":8336.059,"text":"體制外嘛NCC之外的一個輔助的一個單位那您曾經在這樣子一個單位待過你應該會知道就應該會體會到說在這樣子一個機構的一個功能跟作為是不是會有比較無力施展的一個部分那未來如果你成為委員的話你要怎樣去補足這個部分跟這個機構有一個很良好的一個合作"},{"start":8338.44,"end":8365.836,"text":"因為我印象中我們iWIN包含現在其實比較主要核心受理的其實是兒少身心健康那其實說實話這一塊業務是衛福部所以事實上我覺得如果他有機會法制的話他可以在衛福部下面那但是屬於新聞的這一塊新聞自律的這個部分可能會比較跟我們這邊產業監理有關可是我覺得這個部分我們可能還是要聽聽大家的一些意見"},{"start":8366.756,"end":8392.929,"text":"是好那其實IWIN的法治化之前也都有討論過啦那我們也希望就是說您在這個單位待過那未來你成為NCC的一個委員我們也希望就是說您能夠真正的去了解實際的問題然後去協助解決這樣子的一個問題面對的一個問題謝謝好謝謝陳書越有發言完畢現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9028.564,"end":9048.227,"text":"好 我們要繼續開會現在請黃國昌主席發言好 謝謝主席 有請黃倍提名人請黃倍提名人"},{"start":9060.624,"end":9085.099,"text":"黃老師好黃老師在政大傳播學院我相信在傳播界已經教過很多學生了我看你也是中華傳播學會創會的會員我在當初因為參加反媒體壟斷運動也曾經受邀到中華傳播學會去發表論文也進行了報告所以算是對被提名人"},{"start":9086.107,"end":9110.983,"text":"有一些親近感那過去這幾天也有一些傳播學者有向本黨團的委員幫你拉票但是我必須要說在公領域當中沒有失意我們就就事論事接下來的問題來請教一下黃老師第一個你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員5月2號5月2號5月2號就同意了"},{"start":9112.083,"end":9133.022,"text":"對 因為前面有一些OK 好 謝謝沒有啦 這個事實問題我一定會調查清楚因為卓榮泰他違法沒有按照法定的期限把被提名的資料送來立法院一直騙一直騙騙說有人說要什麼他的考慮他的生涯發展要等他現在您是第三位了"},{"start":9134.008,"end":9158.663,"text":"您第三位你們三個都五月就答應了到底是哪一個被提名人因為他自己的生涯規劃拖延整個本院審查的程序然後讓行政院作為把這個被提名人資料持送到立法院這件事情我一定會追出來但是也有可能四個人都沒拖延是左榮泰在說謊"},{"start":9160.134,"end":9178.722,"text":"我向來就是論事啦我對於事實查證的精神是很嚴謹的有人敢在國會說謊我一定追究責任接下來2013年啊蔡英文支持反媒體壟斷痛批啊中國國民黨一夕生變"},{"start":9181.539,"end":9209.647,"text":"支持反媒體壟斷專法痛批中國國民黨一夕生變這是在2013年1月的時候我印象深刻結果民進黨2016年全面執政到現在反媒體壟斷專法過了嗎 沒有被提名人你說不要說沒有過草案都沒有送到立法院來繼續騙啊被提名人你說你贊同制定反媒體壟斷專法 對吧"},{"start":9211.536,"end":9238.539,"text":"是嗎這個是你回給我們問卷的內容對對嘛內容可以討論嘛但是方向上你站著沒有錯吧是吧其實這裡面這個是你的問卷沒錯可是你知道你們你們有20頁的問題是所以其實這個蠻基本的啦對對對你如果看美國國會在審查FCC的時候不需要有這種密度嗎需要吧"},{"start":9240.444,"end":9268.053,"text":"掌管電信 掌管媒體就用審查密度不用嗎還是國會應該用橡皮圖章我只是提醒你啦你在問卷上面所做的承諾我們繼續都會追因為2016年NCC被提名人那時候我已經是立委了一堆被提名人一樣站在老師現在站的位置所有的人都跟我說同意結果咧 跳票跳票 不斷的跳票"},{"start":9269.898,"end":9298.681,"text":"讓我那時候覺得很憤怒等於是說在提名階段的時候爭取國會同意權行使的過程當中每一個人都在騙嘛騙到同意票以後當上NCC委員過去所做的承諾早就全部都忘了第三個部分是我今天問題的核心因為我看過您對於新聞專業倫理事實上很有策略在各個電視台也當過自立委員會的委員甚至是三立電視台的公聘人"},{"start":9299.707,"end":9311.314,"text":"沒有錯嘛 這個在你的警笛上面通通都有那我就現在看不清楚了全台灣的閱聽大眾都看不清楚啦台灣目前的新聞電視台有新聞自律之可言嗎老師你認為有嗎"},{"start":9313.157,"end":9335.229,"text":"有嗎我覺得在兒少婦幼部分有進步雖然不夠完美可是呢在各種不同意識形態的部分呢我不討論意識形態我這個人齁對於台灣多元社會的意識形態我都尊重啊但是我對於做假新聞啊我是深惡痛絕啊沒有事實基礎亂報應不應該處理請問被提名人"},{"start":9340.802,"end":9368.458,"text":"如果是假新聞的話他真的是涉及違反衛光法真的是涉及違反衛光法嗎我上一次被提名的時候我已經問過啦我相信林立雲老師王維堅老師兩位你都很熟啦都是傳播學界的同僚嘛他們退任的時候發表的聲明啊我相信大家看了都心有戚戚焉啊非常的心痛但是呢但是又怎麼樣但是又怎麼樣我上一次說"},{"start":9370.086,"end":9393.205,"text":"禁電視敢指控我黃國昌用假對話截圖蒙騙社會結果人家出了律師函說我講的全部都是真的這就是徹底的做假新聞我要求禁電視公開道歉來我帶老師看看禁電視發什麼聲明禁電視發的聲明說他是及時跟進其他媒體報導內容"},{"start":9395.977,"end":9416.998,"text":"寫這種內容我就很懷疑他有受過訓練嗎他有受過新聞學的基本訓練嗎我先問ABC就好了一家電視台他完全說我進電視是轉進中刊的報導這樣子可以免除進電視在新聞查證的基本責任嗎可以嗎"},{"start":9418.649,"end":9433.762,"text":"任何媒體都應該要做新聞查證任何媒體都應該要做新聞查證嘛我可以說我因為是轉進週刊的報導所以就不做查證嗎可以嗎還是要查證還是要查證嘛 非常的好你剛也講了嘛 就違反衛廣法的規定嘛"},{"start":9437.315,"end":9456,"text":"你在你的問卷裡面說現在政論性節目你把一條線畫得很清楚因為很多政論性節目說什麼這是來賓講的這不是電視台講的跟電視台沒有關係但是你回答我們的問卷講得很清楚針對政論性的談話節目業者必須就討論內容的事實基礎進行查證"},{"start":9461.801,"end":9482.583,"text":"如果評論涉及到事實描述而不是主觀意見電視台必須要證明其內容為真實這個是妳的意見嗎應該是妳會按照妳的意見去執行嗎當然應該啊不會受到任何壓力我覺得我們的成員有在改變應該不會吧對啊 但大家現在就看不懂啦"},{"start":9483.686,"end":9504.008,"text":"有談話性節目的主持人 抹黃柯文哲說有閒私對話 又把妹對話 非常露骨傳出來是有護理師或媒體結果呢 遭到質疑被痛批 越聽大眾去檢舉結果我們來看看這個政論節目的主持人是怎麼辯護的"},{"start":9505.592,"end":9532.074,"text":"他說不要說我抹黃柯主席啊這個是鍾小平進週刊講的啊跟我沒有關係啊是不是栽贓習慣了我們討論事情向來就事論事啊逐字都弄出來啦可以這樣子喔不關我的事啊全部都你講的啊電視評論節目就不用查證事實喔"},{"start":9534.807,"end":9561.036,"text":"他可以依照假的事實轉述然後就拖免責任嗎可以嗎違法的話就要處理對啊 但現在中華民國最大的荒謬是什麼人家政商關係好啊政治上面的八股夠啊根本不處理啊過去的NCC為什麼少委員少了這麼長的一段時間社會大眾一點都不關心"},{"start":9562.335,"end":9586.997,"text":"因為過去的NCC根本沒有用那廢物一樣廢物機關直接稱為張CC所以NCC才會少委員 少這麼久大部分台灣的閱聽人care嗎 根本不care養一個廢物機關要做什麼好啦沒關係 他一直在按鈴顯然是對我內容我也要尊重下面的委員不要佔太久的時間 我只希望老師"},{"start":9588.442,"end":9607.676,"text":"回給我們問卷的內容講的是真的但我覺得很奇怪老師講的我覺得都是新聞的ABC所有不要念到研究所大學畢業的新聞從業人員都應該知道但是為什麼我們現在為什麼我們現在電視台的新聞亂象會這麼嚴重會這麼嚴重難怪林立雲跟維京老師要講"},{"start":9615.711,"end":9630.398,"text":"台灣的政媒關係啊台灣的政媒關係啊已經墮落到了一個無以復加的程度好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌主席發言完畢我們現在請陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請黃貝提名人請貝提名人"},{"start":9650.608,"end":9670.04,"text":"黃貝提銘您好因為我知道您是在政大廣電系教授所以以下我就稱呼您黃教授那我做了一下功課我發現你曾經開了一門課叫做跨媒體識讀那跨媒體就是包含的傳統媒體網路媒體還有網路社群媒體等等那這些訊息跟這個資訊就不斷地在這邊流動互通那請問黃教授"},{"start":9673.922,"end":9679.016,"text":"您認為我們國人媒體嗜讀能力好嗎如果從0分到100分請問你會打幾分"},{"start":9685.02,"end":9703.827,"text":"我覺得最主要是他要看多元性的平台您開了這堂課但是您對一般而言您覺得國人的嗜讀能力在幾分大概您打幾分不到70分好謝謝黃教授我會問這個問題有一個有我在推動代理運門法制化的過程當中"},{"start":9704.887,"end":9718.674,"text":"就在發生在立法院 其他黨的立法委員拿社群媒體上的假新聞資訊來攻擊我把我從來不曾說過的話塞到我嘴巴那企圖傷害我的家庭我不曉得黃教授你有讀到這則新聞嗎"},{"start":9720.188,"end":9743.573,"text":"我們在社群平台上有看到那我覺得如果是不實其實是對當事人是這樣的去年未還委員會排審人工生殖法那民進黨立委那個郭玉琴她拿了一則社群媒體上的假新聞說我接受媒體採訪的時候這個話非常的嚴重她說我說的養子對我而言終究是外人是別人的小孩"},{"start":9744.873,"end":9765.724,"text":"但事實上我從來沒有這樣說我們一家三口感情非常好而且我的家族成員也都把我收養的孩子視如己出那我的兒子甚至鼓勵我來這個立法院為別人的需求這個將代孕解禁作為一個任務來做但是這種具有污衊性的假訊息從立法委員的口中說出來"},{"start":9766.764,"end":9783.096,"text":"那新聞會報導他就會變成大肆的一個被擴大的新聞那這樣子這種假訊這種污衊會破壞我的家庭關係而且也會傷害我兒子的原生家庭那黃教授你覺得這個嚴不嚴重這個假訊息嚴不嚴重"},{"start":9785.618,"end":9813.208,"text":"我覺得他如果雖然國費議員是有免責權那但是如果他要報導的時候又被轉述其實他需要去查證而且要平衡一定要問當事人如果我的孩子我的養子如果不是個暖男那也彼此享受我們彼此之間的愛那他對我跟我先生是百分百相信那我的原生家庭他的原生家庭對我們的為人也認識那否則這個傷害才會減到最小可是如果發生在別人發生在別人家庭"},{"start":9814.708,"end":9834.861,"text":"你這個傷害是非常大 可以非常大傷害本人 傷害原生家庭因為竟然養了這麼久還說他就是別人的孩子所以這個經驗讓我體認到媒體嗜毒的重要性以及部分國人他對媒體嗜毒能力的低落的嚴重性所以為什麼我一開始問你就是談媒體嗜毒因為我讀過2023年天下雜誌這邊報導他的標題就是說臺灣受假新聞攻擊全球第一"},{"start":9842.586,"end":9860.062,"text":"那如何分辨假新聞 媒體媒體是讀大人跟小孩都要學那我從擔任立委到現在無論是親身體會或是我的觀察我覺得台灣接受到假新聞攻擊全球第一這句話是天下雜誌寫的我覺得一點也不講黃教授您覺得如何這個句話有誇大嗎"},{"start":9862.136,"end":9878.378,"text":"臺灣是位於一個關鍵位置所以的確會有不同的國家在這當中去工作就是說他這麼說了黃教授您在回覆民眾黨立法院黨團的問卷中有關媒體壟斷的部分"},{"start":9878.999,"end":9906.877,"text":"您回答說必須強化股權透明度以及穿透式的審查向上追查多層資金的來源並識別出最終具有實質控制權的個人或實體來防堵敏感這個資金規避法規雖然這一題我們本來是在問境外境外這個敏感度資金投資我國的媒體實驗但是對於國內廣電媒體高度集中在某些財團老闆上您覺得您這段回答是不是也可以適用在國內呢"},{"start":9908.178,"end":9929.443,"text":"黃教授是不是也適用在國內這個原則我覺得要看情況因為台灣現在的市場其實相較國際國外是有限的所以在這個部分您覺得這個只是用境外那就是目前國內您覺得還不是適用的時候沒有 國內的話不國內的話我們當然還是要他不干預新聞視自主"},{"start":9931.584,"end":9949.377,"text":"進電視當初取得電視台執照的第一個負債條件就是股東在6年內不得移轉股權就是不能賣出股票但從2022年到現在業界都知道進電視的原始股東早就把股權賣了這些原始股東現在就是人頭股東代持股份而已所以業界對進電視的這個質疑違規執行不斷"},{"start":9952.259,"end":9963.613,"text":"那有一些錄音證據顯示賈森林建設董事長朱文宇從一開始就是代替東森電視總裁張高祥持有這個股份所以他每次開會的時候他進電視開會就說這個是我要請示張總裁雖然這只是電視股份進電視這個股份代持其中一例"},{"start":9969.781,"end":9983.099,"text":"但就涉及你在問卷上回答向上追查多層資金來源並識別最終這個具有實質控制權的個人或這個實體如果您能夠順利擔任NCC委員對於這樣的事情您願不願意去做調查你願不願意主動提出調查"},{"start":9984.113,"end":10000.898,"text":"如果這是一個非常具有殺傷力爭議性的一個案例我覺得我們需要去更新助母雨幫助剛高雄帶持國民眾議不是只有發在淨電視亞外的這個環影新聞台也同樣大家都在環影新聞大量使用東森新聞台的報導而且在過去這個難產一年當中NCC難產那個情況更嚴重當初這個NCC發給淨電視一個執照條件是精進傳媒集團也就是淨週刊陪委不得介入淨電視的經營跟事務"},{"start":10011.681,"end":10029.819,"text":"不得有人力共用 避免靜電視變成狗仔電視台但今年4月政優離開靜電視的董事長位置 遞補上來的原本竟然是靜週刊的副社長廖志成雖然他辭掉了靜週刊的職務 但業界都信這就是走巧門 鑽漏洞啊請問如果你能夠順利擔任這個經濟新聞 您查不查您辦不辦這樣的事情"},{"start":10034.98,"end":10057.131,"text":"我知道好像今天是有一些的爭議目前已經在我已經把這些訊息告訴你就遇到這樣情形您查不查您辦不辦你身為NCC的委員進入到司法程序我們就要做好我明白了好好謝謝貝提敏謝謝主席謝謝陳昭芝委員發言完畢現在請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":10069.36,"end":10097.71,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請被提名人黃維威黃教授請黃被提名人我來稱呼你黃教授這個你被提名當然你希望過了那我們要審那今天的回答你在今天面對所有的委員的回答關乎我們會不會投"},{"start":10099.03,"end":10127.065,"text":"這個統一票非常重要所以我希望你如實回答那麼你在學校也這麼久的時間你應該是專業沒什麼太大問題的而且你做了一些社會公益這個外面對你的評價並不差但是我們這次NCC整個來講為什麼拖這麼久就是因為上一次上一屆特別是陳耀祥當主委的時候那麼NCC整個都搞得一塌糊塗"},{"start":10127.785,"end":10148.461,"text":"就完全屈服於政治壓力關了中天台結果到現在為止跟中天的官司屢戰屢敗幾乎沒有一個安靜營中天都這個NCC都輸我們還變奇怪變預算讓他去打官司結果每一個都輸"},{"start":10149.602,"end":10168.853,"text":"那這樣子 按照這樣子來看的話當初你關中天 它裡面有四大理由NCC列的四大理由其中的 我隨便我講幾個它講內控制律以及自律機制失衡 失靈"},{"start":10170.791,"end":10198.582,"text":"新聞直播遭受不當的這個處理啊什麼之類的喔如果以他的4個4個對中天的這種指控說因為這4點所以我關你台那很多台可以關啦很多台可以關啦就等於說等於他的意思說你這裡面因為你裡面來講的話你播的東西當到不喜歡就這樣子我現在就請問你第一個問題"},{"start":10200.97,"end":10220.892,"text":"你覺得電視台可不可有立場政治立場我想政治立場電視台可不可有目前在國外的話電視台是有都有啊美國CNN這個民主黨啊Fox是共和黨啊都很清楚啊"},{"start":10223.419,"end":10250.912,"text":"這個沒有關係電視台有立場沒有關係現在綠媒一堆沒有關係但是對於播報的新聞要講事實不可以偽造不可以造假不可以這個交違犯等等的對吧所以我就請問你就請問你第一個問題你怎麼樣維持如果你當上如果你被同意了"},{"start":10251.992,"end":10260.293,"text":"你怎麼堅定維持委員的獨立性不受任何的黨政的壓力你怎麼做"},{"start":10262.95,"end":10283.035,"text":"我覺得應該是在每一屆的組成是不一樣過去的我無法置評但是在我個人的部分我想我們一直都是在做公共服務對我來說如果有機會在這個場域做公共服務更直接一點如果你當上了委員"},{"start":10285.14,"end":10297.225,"text":"承受到一個政治的壓力你覺得不妥你要怎麼怎麼處理你怎麼處理拒絕壓力吧你看我們怎麼拒絕"},{"start":10299.628,"end":10322.155,"text":"像法國 你不要忘了喔你們原來NCC有兩個委員我就偏想到名字啦 姓什麼的兩個委員後來拼命放炮啦他下了NCC委員之後拼命放炮 拼命罵說裡面啦 裡面處理亂七八糟的我就問你一件事情 具體的如果遭受到不當的政治干預你敢不敢說 我就提出辭呈"},{"start":10323.035,"end":10342.434,"text":"我辭職以表達我的獨立性跟我的抗議可不可以可以喔今天來講很重要如果有政治上的壓力你就辭職掛罐球去可以吧 第一個第二個你覺得要不要管內容怎麼管"},{"start":10347.093,"end":10374.591,"text":"內容有節目的部份跟新聞的部份新聞的部份新聞我們就來新聞新聞的部份他又會評論節目跟所謂的整點新聞整點新聞的部份他享有新聞自由但是新聞自由要與公共利益相關然後不涉及人身攻擊甚至要查證然後不要影響公共秩序國家安全那如果是評論性的節目他需要是多樣平衡的"},{"start":10375.091,"end":10397.301,"text":"然後主持人在這當中其實是拜登喬的樣子我的時間到了 沒辦法讓你講太多了最後一個小問題 也不是小問題 大問題了你怎麼面對對於中天關台以後的效應其實你怎麼看我們號稱民主國家關電視台全世界很少有民主國家關電視台的"},{"start":10401.574,"end":10415.391,"text":"因為目前那兩個判決已經說要重新審理就是要送回地院跟審所以我們就靜待司法判決你如果司法還是判中天贏是不是應該還給他52台"},{"start":10418.243,"end":10446.728,"text":"如果是這樣的話我覺得有新的事證應該要重新去召開然後再重新的去看各方利益關係人你贊成重新給中天回到新聞台嗎假如前面都是按照判決的話如果是這樣的話不管怎麼樣其實如果真的會是這樣我覺得傷害已經造成所以怎麼樣所以我們反倒公道啊 要你還人家公道啊"},{"start":10448.092,"end":10462.577,"text":"難道不是嗎就只能補救啦如果真的法院判決是怎麼樣補救他電視台都沒有了頻道沒有了你就換給他重新審理然後召開多方利益關係人的審查好 謝謝"},{"start":10463.991,"end":10493.773,"text":"好 謝謝賴思寶委員發言完畢 現在請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在現在請王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在現在請黃婕委員 黃婕委員 黃婕委員不在現在請高津素美委員 高津素美委員 高津素美"},{"start":10493.953,"end":10519.1,"text":"委員不在現在請黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在現在請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在現在請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在現在請林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在現在請煥雲委員煥雲委員煥雲委員不在現在請吳佩義委員吳佩義"},{"start":10523.036,"end":10530.382,"text":"吳佩奕委員現在吳佩奕委員到哪邊了人生的路很長耶"},{"start":10560.147,"end":10583.439,"text":"吳培毅委員在過來的路程我們下午的會議會在一點半繼續召開請各黨團助理聯絡各花園委員我們也是比照星期一開會的方式讓委員可以多做準備"},{"start":10593.263,"end":10617.039,"text":"在這邊也再次的向委員會說明我們的發言時間不分黨派每一位委員我們都尊重他發言的內容及相關的時間在發言時間完畢之後我們會再給予一分鐘的收尾時間如果你的發言時間完了我們會再給你一分鐘的時間才按鈴三次"},{"start":10617.719,"end":10644.098,"text":"然後再經過30秒再按鈴三次每一位委員都一樣每一位委員都公平也都尊重每一位的委員我們也不會像其他委員會的主席在你發言時間完畢之後就提醒你時間到了然後請政務官或相關的委員提供書面資料就可以我們也都會尊重委員的自律今天講新聞自律我們也希望立法院能夠自律"},{"start":10644.838,"end":10649.22,"text":"好現在最後一次吳佩奕委員請發言謝謝主席我請黃薇薇博士備提名人請黃備提名人"},{"start":10670.407,"end":10683.595,"text":"黃教授你好 你好我很關切你過去的這個專業以及你的研究計畫那其中有一項呢我覺得特別的重要是你有一個計畫是叫數位韌性美感素養社區關懷行動計畫"},{"start":10687.697,"end":10711.682,"text":"那是針對比較弱勢的地區像是這個石碇生科木柵細紙我們進入社區來陪伴脆弱家庭的兒少這也是我們政大大學USR的計畫之一那主要就是希望像現在有些孩子的處境是隔代教養單親家庭甚至寄宿家庭那我們希望在數位文化跟美感教育能夠來達到數位的平權"},{"start":10714.082,"end":10729.253,"text":"能不能說明一下這個計畫當時的執行其實這個計畫是12345第五第六年一開始我們先做偏鄉和離島就是部落客家莊這些不同的地方"},{"start":10729.813,"end":10755.083,"text":"做了三年然後之後學校的USR的中心就大學社會責任中心他希望我們就是以政大為核心做大文山區所以後來我們在這一年我們就開始回到叫做深坑石碇矽脂甚至會到新店跟木柵那希望就是以文山區的周圍來做應該叫大文山區那這個部分呢"},{"start":10756.67,"end":10775.547,"text":"其實我們接觸到這些孩子他們是非常單純的非常可愛他們只是支持系統不同比較需要一些的陪讀那很感謝是說有帶一些學生大學生跟研究生你知道他們都喜歡大哥哥大姐姐"},{"start":10776.528,"end":10803.28,"text":"那帶大哥大姊去教他們一方面教他們怎麼去辨識AI一方面我們也教他做創作因為我覺得我們一直跟孩子說這個危險那個恐怖的我們也要告訴孩子那我要怎麼使用善用他大概我們做的是這一塊那另外還有做一些他們的家庭支持系統的一些賠利大概是這樣子好那為什麼請問您這個計畫呢當然NCC沒有大哥哥大姊姊"},{"start":10803.88,"end":10820.168,"text":"但是NCC的其中一個使命包括了尊重弱勢權益促進多元文化均衡發展所以對於偏鄉地區的這個數位平權從你的角度來看認為未來NCC還有什麼樣的作為可以來加強"},{"start":10821.381,"end":10837.043,"text":"我覺得首先是寬頻服務一定要加強因為我們之前還有去台東做數位集會中心進入到山谷的時候其實他們是收不到任何訊號的所以我覺得這個最後一里路我們希望能夠促成"},{"start":10837.443,"end":10852.722,"text":"那還有在蘭嶼也是它只有在東邊可以有可是北邊跟西部不穩定所以我想說能夠促成這個最後一里路是很重要然後但是不能只讓它只有科技我們還希望讓它知道怎麼去善用它避開風險"},{"start":10854.724,"end":10879.736,"text":"通訊的普及率然後還有數位素養這個是我們希望未來NCC也可以朝向多元文化平權促進的方向還要再加強來努力那另外一個案件也想請教你的看法因為黃子椒的案件二審在11月25號即將要宣判那這個案件目前已知的是黃子椒他持有了超過2000個未成年的性影像"},{"start":10882.817,"end":10906.47,"text":"那其中有35名甚至是未成年10到17歲的受害者這個已經觸犯我們兒少性剝削防治條例其中的無證當理由持有未成年性影像那本案他幾個事情非常的惡劣嚴重第一個大量持有第二個他跟犯罪集團來購買第三個創意私房他是一個集團式的犯罪"},{"start":10907.27,"end":10921.816,"text":"拍攝所以情節特別的嚴重那也當時這個個案也推動了立法院的修立法所以呢我想要請教第一個您對這個案件的看法未來我們從法律的立法或執行上面可以怎麼樣來去防範"},{"start":10923.82,"end":10951.66,"text":"我覺得絕對是強制執行法令因為我們有接觸到其中國一被情樂拍的孩子他現在高二然後是同學看到來告訴他還有網路警察在搜尋這個案例的時候告訴他而且他們是把當事人真實的身份全部露出我覺得非常的可惡所以我覺得類似這種保維護 護佑權益的部分它是一個普世價值因為他也"},{"start":10952.521,"end":10970.592,"text":"呼應兒童權利公約防止二次傷害在食物上面下架這些違法的影片要去下架他其實有遇到一些困難沒錯因為有一些已經在社群平台廣泛的散佈所以變成像說實話之前IWIN也有碰到類似的狀況"},{"start":10972.714,"end":10987.609,"text":"那個時候有些境外平台就是說我在外面啊可是我們會拚命的那時候我們那時候一直去寫信跟對方要求請他一定要下架那我會覺得說在這一塊台灣自己做之外"},{"start":10988.189,"end":11014.685,"text":"我們需要夥同一些鄰近的國家一起來聲援那這也是我說今年六月的那個網路治理論壇在談的就是共構數位安全數位治理那我希望說台灣在一起守護富有安全的這一塊我們不是只是單打獨鬥而是我們可以跟其他的國家一起合作我們自己內部像NCC未來要怎麼樣去加強我們跨部會跨單位之間的協作呢"},{"start":11015.245,"end":11042.399,"text":"OK這個部分其實跨部會一直都存在包含衛福部然後警政署我記得還有文化部然後目前外交部那個時候是不在裡面我覺得能夠做的就是要做國際夥伴關係這個部分可以透過跨國的一些平台跟業者一起合作這個很重要對好這部分我也希望未來我們能夠來加強好 謝謝"},{"start":11045.134,"end":11068.736,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員發言完畢現在報告 被提名人黃薇薇女士之說明與答詢結束黃薇薇女士可先行離席 謝謝那我們現在也要休息 下午一點半繼續開會一點半開始進行被提名人羅惠文之說明與答詢 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謝謝主席我請部長 龔部長"},{"start":17.298,"end":44.588,"text":"好部長好請教一下這大家都非常關心的就談美關稅總統說呢有好消息那總統比較確定的是說這次的談判沒有涉及匯率那當然在媒體呢就是大家就傳言那起碼有兩項一個是全面開放美豬或者對於美國車的零關稅那今天早上我看到院長有接受採訪"},{"start":45.728,"end":66.785,"text":"他沒有正面去回答這個問題只有提到說這個食安啊什麼還是會有保障等等好 那我想請教部長就您所了解開放美豬跟開放就是讓美國車零關稅是不是在這一次總統所講的好消息中的其中的兩項"},{"start":68.576,"end":86.703,"text":"包委員因為美豬的部分因為我跟談判團隊討論的比較是製造業經濟部好那我來問你有關於車子的關稅好不好車子的確是有touch到有納入這次的這個談判那我們這一次是針對美規車的零關稅嗎"},{"start":90.709,"end":114.798,"text":"是美制車是美國製造的車子所以美制車的話那就代表你不管是美規 歐規或者是日本車的品牌只要是在美國製造在美國製造就可以零關稅是不是這樣不一定是零關稅因為談判的結果還沒有做最後確定但是有可能零關稅"},{"start":116.927,"end":136.194,"text":"我们希望不要了希望我们希望就是我们的底线是什么我们底线是不要零个关税还是底线就是到最后就是没办法就零关税那我们的这个因为现在也有很多其实这是好几个力量的冲击比如对消费者来讲零关税蛮好的但是对于这个"},{"start":137.194,"end":153.172,"text":"對於我們的一些勞工來講勞工朋友其實也很擔心所以我們沒有零關稅我們現在是17.5%那我們能夠接受的最多的底線是什麼呢這個就不好大概就是所以可以確定的就是美製車的關稅會下降"},{"start":157.241,"end":186.461,"text":"会下降方向上方向是如此而且它不单纯只是美规也有欧规因为我知道我们也有一些欧规车在跟我们抗议贸易通关是它的货品来源是哪里是如果美国然后它有附加价值一定的比例它才可以有这样的税率彼此我们也去也是一样我们不能用洗产地的方式拿国外的东西卖给美国然后享受这个优惠关税这个也不行"},{"start":186.861,"end":207.323,"text":"当然所以这边就是我们要了解就是很多消费者是关心了那另外要请教一下就是最近川普动作很多那他马上就要来亚洲访问那其中一部分呢他在因为他不参加那个APEC但是呢他会去韩国"},{"start":208.825,"end":215.61,"text":"而且這次傳出呢美國跟韓國渴望會有這個有關關稅談判新的進展而且說南韓關稅渴望降到15%現在日本也15%如果韓國也降到15%的話那當然"},{"start":228.899,"end":244.689,"text":"對於台灣來講因為他們兩個國家在很多產業跟我們是競爭的好所以如果韓國降成15%的話那麼是不是對台灣來說台灣來說是很大的壓力我們有機會談到15%嗎"},{"start":246.71,"end":262.964,"text":"是 報告委員這個也是我們努力的方向的確就像您講的我們很多產品是跟韓式有一些競爭關係但是對我們比較辛苦的是因為我們對美國的順差遠高於這兩個國家所以我們當然一定會努力希望"},{"start":263.764,"end":292.713,"text":"我們有沒有機會到15%現在韓國如果15%的話對我們壓力太大了對對對我們努力那另外大家很關心的我們20%你們說是暫時性的這一暫時也好幾個月都過去了請問這個暫時還要維持多久然後我們可以什麼時候不用疊加現在我們還是20%是疊加結果人家韓國準備要降到15%了如果今年不是今年底是本月底"},{"start":293.833,"end":313.7,"text":"這個月底韓國跟美國真的談出一個關稅降到15%而我們還要疊加所以請問一下所謂我們的暫時性關稅部長能不能給我們一個就是一個期盼可不可以在今年底之前我們至少看到我們不需要疊加"},{"start":315.143,"end":343.42,"text":"这个我们来努力那我的信心虽然没有办法到百分之百但是我蛮有信心可以努力那部长可不可以给我们透露一下我们到底什么时候会台美之间这些关税的这些谈判大概几月份可以明朗因为最后的总结会议还是要双方彼此间可以达成共识以后或者有时间十月底有没有可能十月底有没有可能因为最近刚好在"},{"start":344.42,"end":367.632,"text":"在APEC世界呢所以就很難了因為他們都在忙都在忙要怎麼跟那個習近平見面怎麼去跟忙跟李在民見面他要去東南亞嘛所以十月底不可能十一月底呢我們盡量我們盡量十一月最快最快要到十一月才有可能明朗好不好我們希望這個暫時不要再繼續拖時間好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時28分）好，謝謝。主席，我請龔部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。請教一下，大家都非常關心的就是臺美關稅，總統說有好消息，總統比較確定的是這次談判沒有涉及匯率，當然在媒體，大家就傳言起碼有兩項，一個是全面開放美豬或者對於美國車的零關稅。今天早上我看到院長有接受採訪，他沒有正面去回答這個問題，只有提到食安還是會有保障等等。我想請教部長，就您所了解，開放美豬跟開放讓美國車零關稅，是不是在這一次總統所講的好消息中的其中兩項？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，關於美豬的部分，我跟談判團隊討論的比較是製造業，經濟部主管的範圍。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我來問你有關於車子的關稅，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：車子的確是有touch到這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：有納入這次的談判。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們這次是針對美規車的零關稅嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是美製車，美國製造的車子。"],["王委員鴻薇：美製車的話就代表不管是美規、歐規或者是日本車的品牌，只要是在美國製造就可以零關稅，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：不一定是零關稅，因為談判的結果還沒有做最後確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是有可能零關稅？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們希望不要啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我們的底線是什麼？我們底線是不要零關稅，還是底線就是到最後沒辦法就零關稅。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們不希望零關稅。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這是好幾個力量的衝擊，對消費者來講零關稅蠻好的，但是對於勞工來講，勞工朋友其實也很擔心。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們沒有零關稅，我們現在是17.5%，那我們能夠接受的最多底線是什麼呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個就不好在這邊……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以可以確定的就是……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會儘量……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以可以確定的就是，美製車的關稅會下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：方向上是。"],["王委員鴻薇：方向是如此，而且不單純只是美規，也有歐規，因為我知道我們也有一些歐規車在跟我們抗議。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為貿易通關是他的貨品來源是哪裡，如果是美國，然後它有附加價值一定的比例，他才可以有這樣的稅率。我們去也是一樣，我們不能用洗產地的方式拿國外的東西賣給美國，然後享受這個優惠關稅，這個也不行。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然，所以我們要了解很多消費者是關心的。另外，要請教一下，最近川普動作很多，他馬上就要來亞洲訪問，其中一部分，因為他不參加APEC，但是他會去韓國，這次傳出美國跟韓國渴望會有關關稅談判的新進展，而且說南韓關稅渴望降到15%，現在日本也15%，如果韓國也降到15%，當然對於臺灣來講，因為他們兩個國家在很多產業跟我們是競爭的，所以如果韓國降成15%的話，那麼是不是對臺灣來說是很大的壓力？我們有機會談到15%嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，報告委員，這個也是我們努力的方向，的確就像您講的，我們很多產品跟日、韓有一些競爭關係，但是對我們比較辛苦的是，因為我們對美國的順差遠高於這兩個國家。我們當然一定會努力，希望達到大家希望……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們有沒有機會到15%？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在韓國如果15%，對我們的壓力太大了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外大家很關心的，我們20%，你們說是暫時性的，這一暫時也好幾個月都過去了，請問這個暫時還要維持多久？然後我們可以什麼時候不用疊加？現在我們20%，還是疊加，結果人家韓國準備要降到15%了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果這個月底韓國跟美國真的談出關稅降到15%，而我們還要疊加，請問我們的暫時性關稅，部長能不能給我們一個期盼，可不可以在今年底之前，至少看到我們不需要疊加？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我們來努力，我的信心雖然沒有辦法到百分之百，但是我蠻有信心可以努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，可不可以跟我們透露一下，臺美之間這些關稅的談判，到底大概幾月份可以明朗化？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為最後的總結會議，還是要雙方彼此間可以達成共識以後或者有時間，因為剛好就像……"],["王委員鴻薇：10月底有沒有可能？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為最近剛好在APEC時間，事實上大家都很忙，我們很忙，他們也很忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以就很難了，因為他們都在忙，都在忙要怎麼跟習近平見面？怎麼去跟李在明見面？他要去東南亞嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以10月底不可能，11月底呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們儘量。"],["王委員鴻薇：11月，最快最快要到11月才有可能明朗。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們儘快。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們希望這個「暫時」不要再繼續拖時間，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有請經濟部部長跟能源署署長我們請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":16.349,"end":42.407,"text":"賴委員好是 那個兩位好這一次丹納斯颱風讓我深刻的體會到就是說極端氣候的一個那個常態性那在災後的一個復原其實已經不再是修補了我們希望就是說基礎建設可以前面的一個提升部長在這裡特別跟你探討就是說這個187億就是韌性的這個"},{"start":43.428,"end":46.809,"text":"任性的一個經費裡頭丹納斯颱風丹納斯颱風的特別預算187億就是600億裡頭你分配到187億那你其中有8億是給能源署嘛這裡我想請教署長這個8億的錢那你用在什麼地方"},{"start":66.853,"end":83.842,"text":"在這裡我要特別跟你提醒到一個三個重點就是關鍵性的一個產業電纜韌性的優先的一個試做這一段還有就是說智慧儲能還有加強式移動式的電源的一個建置不知道你準備到什麼樣的一個"},{"start":85.45,"end":108.508,"text":"是 我们那个8亿是要做定制型的这样的除能设备那我们主要是跟这些目前我们的办法已经公告了那么可以来提出有兴趣的业者就可以来提出申请那另外那个我们部长也特别指示就是说我们会主动出击也就是说"},{"start":108.928,"end":128.786,"text":"我们对几个比较有需要这种定制型燃料电池的厂商像在各个工业区那我们会去主观的做主动做说明那另外我们还有一笔预算除了这个8E以外我们还有一笔预算是做微电网那做微电网的那这个办法我们也正在"},{"start":129.446,"end":158.664,"text":"好 署長這顯然你已經準備好了可是你針對的就是在上一週我跟台電的總經理特別有提到了災後的一個重建我們希望強化這個電纜的一個抗災的一個韌性那有沒有要優先做就像我們這幾個那個區域在當然是颱風受創了這麼嚴重就是說不管是台南不管是嘉義這個地方你有沒有要優先施作呢"},{"start":160.407,"end":178.409,"text":"包委員 這個台電的部分它是有九個示範場 對但是我們有盤點過大概所謂的孤島裡面其中大概有53個他們是有這樣的需求而且很希望這樣做那我們會從聯署還有其他的部分"},{"start":179.15,"end":207.059,"text":"去满足这五十几个这个丹纳斯台风这个是一个专款专案我们受创的那个地方是最严重的为什么没有从我们这个地方开始先做呢这个倒是我特别疑问的报告委员这个议题我们有跟台南市政府开过会市长都亲自主持那也来协调一些教育局等等的一些单位一起来找位置"},{"start":208.42,"end":229.802,"text":"所以有優先要做嘛對不對那就是說我還特別在這裡提到了就是說你的韌性除冷的一個設備你必須要放在就是書上你的避難所啦你的避難所你要放在學校的體育館還是社區的活動中心甚至安置的一個中心是不是你們有一個完整的一個準備呢"},{"start":230.683,"end":255.551,"text":"是 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行政部門的版本希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜的議題而是已經長達了數年了"},{"start":43.27,"end":69.044,"text":"過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題"},{"start":70.004,"end":84.879,"text":"这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责"},{"start":85.88,"end":105.69,"text":"是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒"},{"start":106.21,"end":135.08,"text":"因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出"},{"start":136.181,"end":149.215,"text":"勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高"},{"start":151.457,"end":173.974,"text":"所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于"},{"start":174.674,"end":195.195,"text":"覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣"},{"start":196.676,"end":216.515,"text":"今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里"},{"start":217.668,"end":244.657,"text":"所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本"},{"start":246.001,"end":267.843,"text":"我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧"},{"start":269.664,"end":287.77,"text":"來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資"},{"start":289.175,"end":314.466,"text":"我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限"},{"start":315.746,"end":330.147,"text":"那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了"},{"start":331.229,"end":355.796,"text":"当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对"},{"start":356.596,"end":381.923,"text":"每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊"},{"start":386.306,"end":413.638,"text":"這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪"},{"start":416.097,"end":417.444,"text":"所以是不是就跟"},{"start":419.813,"end":445.524,"text":"外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點"},{"start":447.284,"end":474.103,"text":"保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障"},{"start":475.309,"end":495.795,"text":"線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了"},{"start":497.734,"end":512.797,"text":"部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的"},{"start":513.658,"end":541.928,"text":"第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險"},{"start":544.465,"end":566.943,"text":"我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間"},{"start":568.607,"end":593.072,"text":"總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中"},{"start":594.554,"end":617.235,"text":"所以你未來就會變是什麼 就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP 只要沒有人給我單 我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法 自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後 送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後 我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子"},{"start":618.473,"end":632.787,"text":"跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎"},{"start":637.762,"end":653.207,"text":"保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是"},{"start":653.867,"end":674.068,"text":"這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛"},{"start":674.488,"end":695.816,"text":"跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者"},{"start":696.816,"end":708.749,"text":"七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算"},{"start":709.885,"end":730.746,"text":"部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要"},{"start":732.661,"end":756.356,"text":"對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":758.194,"end":782.282,"text":"確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個"},{"start":783.442,"end":804.585,"text":"雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下"},{"start":805.606,"end":821.799,"text":"部長 上禮拜 10月18號 生日快樂好不好 我們一起努力繼續加油 為外送員 為餐廳 為消費者打造良好的外送關係 謝謝謝謝 洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1334,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時10分）謝謝主席，麻煩請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，千呼萬喚始出來，今天上午您終於有鬆口說兩、三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本、行政院版本，是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：對，行政部門的版本，希望在三個月內。"],["洪委員孟楷：希望在三個月內？本席也說，今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題，不是這兩個禮拜的議題，而是已經長達數年了，過去一直說外送員專法，如果指引能夠保障的話，當然就照指引，但就是因為有太多面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含括的，而外送員的人口數也越來越多，今天從上午到現在，非常多的委員把各樣態的問題都告知大家，大家也都有看到，不管是餐廳面臨的問題、不管是外送員面臨的問題，甚至消費者面臨的問題，這些都跟我們現在的討論息息相關。也因此，我們才會講是不是有一個專法能夠含括更多的面向，給予公權力來適時的要求，讓各自都有權利跟義務要負責，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們的確認為其實有更多可以規範化的空間，甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用，因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方，這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工來處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以遲到總比不到好啦！今天願意，也說要三個月內提出，不過本席要提醒，今天既然召委已經排案了，我們希望能夠趕快進入到逐條審查的流程，但如果行政部門一拖再拖，還是沒有辦法拿出來的話，我們也希望在逐條審查的時候，能夠針對逐條來做一個比較詳細的討論，甚至，如果有取得共識的，我們就可以先行，而沒有取得共識的部分，送出委員會在朝野協商的時候，也一定要拿出勞動部的態度，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告，我這邊就很誠實地講，因為這個法的修訂，挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來得高，包括它整個立法的架構跟立法的技術，這件事情我們非常願意跟委員來做好好的討論，尤其是在這個法規的修訂上面，我自己是秉持這裡面絕對沒有分什麼黨派，我覺得能夠把這個法規……就像委員說的，一段時間下來，大家終於覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段，把它給修得好，讓討論的空間能夠拉大，我覺得這是我們對於這個法規最基本的態度。","所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論，尤其就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到，它涉及到行政部門的面向真的很廣，今天如果沒有其他部會協助的話，比方平台對消費者、平台對商家這些業務上面的事情，要勞動部來處理，挑戰也非常大，就算你要我做，我可能也做不好，因為這在勞動部的職掌上面，所以這裡面的部會分工要怎麼處理得好，我認為是未來這個法能不能運作好的最關鍵的點會是在這裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我總結一句，因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間，過去為什麼我們一而再、再而三希望push行政院版本的外送員專法出來？但遲遲沒有辦法出來，第9屆、第10屆就有討論，當時執政黨國會多數過半，想推就可以推，沒有。到今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本，我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞，但我現在越來越相信，真的是「大罷免大烙賽」之後，才能夠回復正常，因為回復正常才能夠真的公開、理性地討論我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群、照顧到的民眾好好的研究，看要怎麼樣來照顧。","部長，我直接請教您兩個議題，因為上午有看到您在答詢的時候說希望薪資的保障，是外送員所在意的，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，是報酬。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有講每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資，我沒有理解錯誤吧？"],["洪部長申翰：不是扣運費……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是我剛剛看到的媒體新聞報導，它直接講希望未來薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後，要高於最低工資薪資。"],["洪部長申翰：不是什麼扣運費，我沒有說扣運費。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的原文是什麼？你的意思是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，接下來交通部會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限，這個上限處理的是平台跟消費者收……"],["洪委員孟楷：外送員期待的是他的薪資保障。因為我們看到像7月的時候，也有平台業者說要調整外送員的報酬，結果計算之後，每單就減少了，當時勞動部也說應該要維持一定的收入。"],["洪部長申翰：對……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們最低的薪資到底會定在哪邊？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，因為這裡面會有好幾個費用的項目，所以我們比較是用綜合性的報酬來看待這件事情，因為你只管它一項，它可以長出其他項目……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以是綜合性的報酬，認為每一單是要高於最低工資的時薪。"],["洪部長申翰：對，至少。"],["洪委員孟楷：每一單？"],["洪部長申翰：對，每一單。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以綜合性的報酬，他的每一單在未來我們的院版本裡面，會有外送員高於現在的時薪190元以上？"],["洪部長申翰：明年就是196。"],["洪委員孟楷：明年就196？"],["洪部長申翰：換算，這是換算，我的意思是因為會涉及到他跑的……"],["洪委員孟楷：每一單，他可能一個小時接兩單，那就是要保證他可以賺到三百多塊？你看，這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方，也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛！你講的是每一單，所以我剛剛一直在確認，你未來的院版是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說，當然是實質的服務期間，在實質的服務期間，然後每一單，他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是不是就跟外界理解不同了？因為你今天上午講的，其實我說實在話啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題，但是那個標題並不是扣運價，並不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，所以這也是為什麼今天你講你的，然後我理解我的，然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的，會有這種不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛，如果有版本的話，我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了。第二點，保險的部分也是大家最關心的，這個之前我們講，他們又不算是傳統的僱傭關係，又不算是派遣關係，也因此是不是要折衷找第三種關係？但不管怎麼樣，什麼關係，實質上外送員跟平台有一定程度互相的合作工作，外送員也應該要有一定程度的保險保障。現行他是以所謂的團體傷害險來cover，而且規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover時間，而外送員一直講，接單上跟接單下才有保險的時間，但是我上線跟下線的時候，我其實就已經開始工作了。部長，你覺得你的方向為何？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們認為要有商業保險，商業保險是基本的，這不用多說。"],["洪委員孟楷：是商業保險，還是要有勞工保險？"],["洪部長申翰：先讓我說明，第一個是要商業保險，這是一定要的；第二個，因為外送員會特別在意的事情是職安安全的問題，所以我們認為其實雇主有必要為外送員，尤其是職災保險的部分，要幫忙做保費的給付。"],["洪委員孟楷：職災保險？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就是包含到我們所謂的勞保囉？"],["洪部長申翰：災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情。我們認為，因為主要外送……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險，所以現在這個是不足的……"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們會朝向他一定要有商業保險；第二個，商業保險以外，尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個我們都理解，所以我們就想要怎樣保障他的安全。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們是用災保。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以還要再增加災保？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外還有保障的時間……"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為平台要幫忙付保費。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那保障的時間呢？總不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說：手握方向盤開車才算是在工作，只要手沒有握方向盤的話，就不算工作，那就要休息。一樣的，現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間，是他要接到單才算是投保時間，而接完單送完之後又不算投保時間，可是他持續在上線中。所以未來就會變成什麼？就是我在上線的過程開啟了app，但只要沒有人給我單，我沒有接單的時候，我就是要自己想辦法趨吉避凶，因為被撞到不能被保險。但是接了單之後，送單的過程有保險範圍，可是送完單之後，當我要再等下一單的中間，我又要趨吉避凶，現行狀況是這樣子。"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，目前平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保，如果說他……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，依勞動關係加保，就是他自己要付費啊！"],["陳司長美女：對、對，目前。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，部長說……"],["陳司長美女：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：對不起，請教您是？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要說的……"],["洪委員孟楷：請教您是勞動保險司嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，委員，我說的事情是我們認為……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰講的才算？部長搖頭，結果我們的美女司長一直在點頭？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為應該要有災保的保障，我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個我已經確認了，我剛剛講的是下一個問題，保險的期間，就現行我們了解的狀況，是不是如我剛剛講的，他是接單的過程才有算他的保險，因為平台也沒有保險，平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保單，然後提供給他的外送員嘛！"],["陳司長美女：目前我們在職業工會加保，他就是有工作的時候就去加保。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但他現在認定的就是你接單才算工作。"],["陳司長美女：不是，他不一定是接這個單，他只要是送外送員的工作的話，他就可以去參加職業工會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我們理解是這樣嘛，但現在我是講，可能我們現在有七大還八大平台業者，對不對？但現在其中最大的平台業者給外送員的狀況，就是你接單才算是保險的範圍，但上線的時候都還不算。"],["陳司長美女：部長的意思是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在才……","不是，沒關係，來，我提供這樣子的資訊，也讓你們知道實際的狀況，未來在討論逐條的時候，我們針對過去想的不夠周全、不夠周到的地方來補齊……"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有說一定要是外送平台，一定要對付它不可，但就如同我今天早上講的，現在狀況是一強三弱，消費者、外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢；外送平台相對強勢，而我們希望透過我們的調和鼎鼐，讓大家都能夠充分責任權力之後四足鼎立，大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧。"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係，讓相關社會保險的規範，它跟過去傳統的僱傭關係，或者是傳統的、一般的承攬關係很不一樣，所以這中間其實會有過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的模糊地帶。因此現在的確是在僱傭關係跟承攬關係之間，我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，這就我講的，我們之後討論的時候針對這個議題好好來研究，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有問題，我們也希望大家可以很理性針對這個事情，然後很直接在上面交換意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我還是強調我對事不對人。","最後暖心一下，部長，上禮拜10月18號生日快樂，好不好？我們一起努力，繼續加油，為外送員、為餐廳、為消費者打造良好的外送關係，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：部長生日快樂。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","張智倫委員、張智倫委員，張智倫委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、委員張智倫、委員林沛祥、委員涂權吉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","議程","審查「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。","請勞動部說明：","為了保障外送員權益，「勞動部」如何和外送平臺治理主管機關「交通部」合作，就外送平臺納管事除了研訂「整合型外送平臺經營管理指引」，就對於制訂「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」有何看法？"],["委員張智倫書面質詢：","一、外送員報酬最低保障與接單費定價監管問題","現行外送平台報酬機制由業者單方決定，外送員缺乏議價能力與最低保障。部分平台任意調降接單費或更改計價公式，導致外送員收入不穩。","立法院審議中的《外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案》部分條文建議，應比照運輸業設立「接單費核定制度」，由工會與同業公會共同協商報請主管機關核定，並明定「基本費不得低於基本工資的三分之一」，以維護外送員基本生活保障。","茲提問如下：","1.勞動部是否支持建立「最低接單費」或「報酬底線」制度？對於草案中規定「基本費不得低於基本工資三分之一」的建議，是否已有政策立場與影響評估？","2.政府是否有計畫比照《公路法》運價模式，讓外送員工會與同業公會共同擬訂費率並報請主管機關核定？","3.若外送平台未提供合理報酬、或擅自調降接單費率，政府有無具體裁處或申訴機制？是否考慮納入行政裁罰範圍？","二、演算法決策與停權申訴機制失衡問題","外送平台以演算法決定派單順序與報酬結構，外送員無法得知計算邏輯與演算法調整依據。多起案例顯示，外送員因客訴或評價遭停權，卻無任何預警或救濟管道，導致生計中斷。","目前《外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法》草案建議，主管機關應制定申訴準則，要求平台建立申訴與復權機制，保障外送員免受不當停權或差別對待。","茲提問如下：","1.外送平台是否應揭露派單演算法的主要原則與評分權重？勞動部是否有計畫要求平台揭露接單率、評價計算方式等關鍵指標，以確保公平性？","2.對於外送員因演算法降權或遭停權的案件，勞動部是否將主導訂定「標準化申訴機制」？是否會規範申訴時限與處理程序？","3.平台片面調整派單、停權或獎金規則，是否屬於契約變更行為？主管機關將如何透過契約審查或勞動爭議機制進行監督？","三、社會保險與商業保險納保責任問題","目前多數外送員以「承攬關係」提供服務，無法納入勞保體系。職業災害或意外事故發生時，僅能仰賴平台自設保險方案，保障不足且不具強制力。部分草案建議，應明定外送平台業者即便與外送員非僱傭關係，也須準用《勞工保險條例》與《職業災害保險及保護法》，並為外送員投保商業保險（如團體意外險、第三人責任險），以保障人身安全與勞動風險。","茲提問如下：","1.勞動部對於「平台應為非僱傭關係外送員辦理勞保及職災保險」的草案條文持何立場？是否已有可行配套與行政執行方案？","2.金管會是否考慮與保險業者協調，建立全國統一的「外送員保險基本條款」，確保最低保障水準？","3.外送員跨平台接單且流動性高，勞動部是否規劃建立「外送員登錄平台」或「中央納保系統」，統一管理投保與保險資訊？"],["委員林沛祥書面質詢：","臺灣的外送員人數已經突破15萬人，這不是一個小眾的「新興產業」，這是一個龐大且正在快速擴張的勞動力群體，然而，這15萬名勞工，每天穿梭在車陣中，為臺灣的便利生活服務，但他們自己卻深陷在法律的灰色地帶，成為「數位孤兒」。","過去，勞動部總是試圖用傳統的「僱傭」與「承攬」二分法來界定，但我們都知道，平台業者利用法律的模糊空間，設計出「假承攬、真管理」的制度，他們透過演算法，對外送員進行高度的指揮監督，包括如何取餐、如何送達、穿著什麼制服、使用什麼話術，但卻拒絕承擔任何僱主應負的責任。","勞動部之前提出的「勞動契約認定指導原則」，在實務上根本無法撼動平台業者的優勢地位，結果就是，外送員沒有勞健保、沒有職災保險，沒有加班費、沒有退休金提撥，更沒有最基本的勞動尊嚴。這部專法，就是要終結這種亂象，法案的核心精神，是承認外送員作為「非典型勞動者」的特殊性，並強制平台業者必須承擔起碼的「社會責任」。","本席要針對這部草案的四大核心，請勞動部說明的立場與作為：","一、如何落實十五萬外送員的社會安全網？","外送員每天面對最大的風險就是交通意外，然而，在「假承攬」的架構下，平台業者不必為他們投保勞工保險與職業災害保險，一旦出事，外送員及其家庭就得獨自面對鉅額的醫療費用與生活頓失依靠的慘劇。","為了解決這個問題，本席連署的版本草案第13條明確規定，對於非僱傭關係之外送員，應「準用」勞工保險條例及勞工職業災害保險及保護法，強制平台業者必須為外送員辦理加保，這是在現行「承攬」框架下，為外送員爭取到的最基本保障。","請問勞動部，面對草案第13條的強制納保設計，預計如何建立具體的行政執行機制？","這15萬名「非僱傭」外送員，在現行勞保系統中並無明確的投保單位，勞動部要如何設計申報、稽核與繳費制度，以確保平台業者「準用」勞保條例時，是「玩真的」全面納保，而不是選擇性加保，或又找出新的法律漏洞來規避這項法定的社會責任？","二、如何打破演算法黑箱與片面減薪的剝削？","外送員最痛恨的，就是平台業者「說砍就砍」的「接單費」（報酬），平台業者利用演算法的黑箱，隨時調整計費公式，這個月一單60元，下個月可能就變成40元，外送員完全沒有議價能力，只能被迫接受。","為了解決這種「演算法剝削」，草案第4條提出了一個關鍵性的變革，明定「接單費之標準、計算方法及發放日期」，應由外送平台業同業公會「暨相關之工會」共同擬訂，並且要「報請主管機關核定」，非經核准不得調整。","同時，草案第4條第3項更明定，接單費應包含基本費、里程費、等待費等，且「基本費不得低於基本工資之三分之一」，這就是為外送員的勞動價值，訂下一個法定的樓地板。","請問勞動部，草案第4條賦予了勞動部「核定」外送費率的關鍵權力，未來若本法通過，勞動部將如何建立一個透明、公正、且能平衡勞資雙方利益的「費率審議機制」？","又要如何確保在外送員工會力量相對薄弱、整合困難的現況下，這個「共同擬訂」的過程，不會被強勢的平台業者同業公會所主導？勞動部將依據什麼標準來「核定」一個公平的費率？","三、如何制止平台業者「任意停權」的數位極權？","對外送員來說，比減薪更可怕的，叫做「停權」，平台業者僅憑消費者單方面的客訴，甚至不需要查證，就可以透過系統將外送員「立即停權」，斷絕其生計，這等於是數位時代的「任意解僱」，外送員沒有申訴管道，更沒有救濟機會。","草案第7條規定，平台業者應建立申訴制度，受理外送員不服「停權處分」之申訴，並且在第10條明定，即便是非僱傭關係，平台業者要終止契約，也必須在「三十日前預告」，並應發給「經濟補償」。","請問勞動部，草案第7條授權中央主管機關（勞動部）訂定申訴相關準則，勞動部將如何設計這套「停權申訴準則」？","如何確保這個申訴機制是具備獨立性與公正性的，而不是讓平台業者「球員兼裁判」？","對於草案第10條所提的「經濟補償」，勞動部認為應如何計算標準，才能實質保障被平台片面終止契約的外送員？","四、如何確保外送員在惡劣天氣下的「生命權」？","每當颱風天、暴雨日，政府宣布停止上班上課，卻是外送平台訂單最多的時候，外送員為了生計，被迫在狂風暴雨中冒險外送，這簡直是用生命在換取微薄的報酬。","草案第14條明確規定：「因天然災害宣布停止上班，應停止從事外送服務」，平台業者必須停止營業，並通知外送員，若平台業者違反規定，且導致外送員在執行服務過程中死亡，草案第20條更訂有加重處罰，最高可處100萬元罰鍰。","此外，草案第17條也強制平台業者必須為外送員投保足額的「人身保險及財產保險」，附表更明訂了團體傷害保險（死亡/失能）最低300萬、強制險、第三人責任險等具體額度。","請問勞動部，對於草案第14條的「天災停業令」與第17條的「強制商業保險」，勞動部在實務上要如何落實「即時勞檢」？","勞動部要如何確保在颱風天當下，平台業者是真的關閉了系統，而不是陽奉陰違？","又要如何建立一個常態性的稽查機制，去核對那15萬名外送員，每一位都真的在保險名單上，且保額是足夠的？","這部專法是為15萬外送員爭取勞動人權的具體行動，它提供了明確的法律工具，去處理保險、薪資、申訴與安全這四大核心問題。","本席嚴正呼籲勞動部，不要再以「研議中」、「需凝聚社會共識」來拖延，外送員的職災、外送員的血汗，每一天都在發生，請具體承諾，勞動部將全力支持這部專法的精神，並立即開始研擬相關的執法配套措施，還給這15萬名勞工應有的保障。"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","【放寬育嬰留職停薪至孫子女】","1.立法院民國114年7月22日三讀修正通過「公務人員任用法第36條之1條文」，並通過一項附帶決議，要求銓敘部應於3個月內刪修公務人員留職停薪辦法規定，放寬公務人員申請育嬰孫假的留職停薪事由，以減輕家庭育兒負擔。而本黨委員翁曉玲也提出修法版本，初衷是希望在公務人員任用法增訂「育孫假」。而在今年8月底，銓敘部也預告修正「公務人員留職停薪辦法」，明訂各機關不得拒絕育孫留職停薪的申請，並刪除申請育孫留職停薪只能以孫子女無法受雙親適當養育或有特殊事由者為限的規定，盼使公務員安心生養，此舉也是為了因應少子女化及高齡化時代來臨，提供一個更優質的育兒育嬰環境。","2.反觀受雇勞工在實務上，育嬰留職停薪、津貼僅「父母」能夠請領，即便祖父母作為實質照顧者，也擁有孫子女監護權，即便「育嬰留職停薪」獲公司首肯，但是向勞動部勞工保險局申請「育嬰留職停薪津貼」，卻遭到拒絕。因應上述情況，根據今年1月報載勞動部研議放寬，預計在今年農曆年後召集專家學者、相關團體進行討論。","3.本席請就教勞動部：(1)該議題貴部研議概況如何？相關專家學者、團體的意見為何？(2)假若放寬「育嬰留職停薪」、「育嬰留職停薪津貼」資格，惠及受雇勞工大約占總體受雇勞工人數多少？是否有做相關政策影響評估？","4.本席擬具「性別平等工作法第十六條」、「就業保險法第十一條、第十九之二條」修正草案如下，現在正在連署中，本席版本放寬受僱者任職滿六個月後，於每一孫子女滿三歲前，得申請育嬰留職停薪，同時申請請領「育嬰留職停薪津貼」，但每一孫子女合計最長發給三個月，完整版本文字如下，懇請貴部於兩週內給本席書面意見答覆。","【監督各縣市政府落實「違反性別平等工作法事件裁罰基準」】","1.長榮航空孫姓空服員猝死乙事，突顯航空產業從業人員請假難的問題，前空服員職業工會秘書長林佳瑋指出，過去一年，長榮航空違反性別平等工作法遭裁罰件數多達七件，但是地方縣市政府都是以最低罰鍰金額裁罰。","2.但是根據地方政府的裁罰基準，第一次違規處二萬元以上四萬元以下罰鍰、第二次違規處五萬元以上九萬元以下罰鍰，往上疊加、以此類推。","3.近年來，有關「促進性別工作平等」、「懷孕婦女的母性保護」，「創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境」、等等因應少子化危機的政策措施，是勞動部、衛福部等政府機關近年來大力推展的重要政策，但是長榮航空在短短時間內被裁罰七件有關違反性平法之情事，地方政府沒有按照自己訂定出來裁罰基準對公司裁罰，以達到嚇阻繼續違法的效果，使得以上重大政策的推展受到阻礙。","4.既然「促進性別工作平等」、「懷孕婦女的母性保護」，「創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境」等等等，是當下我們國家重大的政策推動方向，針對地方政府有無落實「處理違反性別平等工作法事件裁罰基準」，本席建議勞動部應該要積極督促執行，並定期考核各縣市政府的落實情況。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等6案，另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝，大家辛苦了。","散會（14時25分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪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人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da8b55e2453adad43b34f1f132b5784e0488cc85b2f3b90c227a56b3449513e4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:53:41 - 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轄管"},{"start":85.899,"end":111.964,"text":"平台業者現在因為平台的治理的全的單位是交通部行政院定平台業者的登錄是交通部登平台業者誰管的如果到現在不曉得平台業者是誰在管的那那這個法律要怎麼定呢平台業者現在整體的治理單位的主應該是目的是應該是交通部吧"},{"start":118.772,"end":145.797,"text":"那還不上來嗎誒 陳氏我問你這樣你又不起來啊不然待會再提請你也真奇怪平台業者是跟交通部登記嗎平台業者平台業者現在有大概七家的業者裡頭大概有四家他平台業者是跟我們登記為汽車運輸業"},{"start":148.261,"end":171.711,"text":"跟你們登記的汽車運輸業 七家 四家那三家是跟誰去登記還是他不用登記 他就是要做平台業者他就可以馬上指揮你去哪邊 去哪邊送 去哪邊送他其他是用商業登記的方式在做商業登記 那有誰管呢有人舉手了 謝謝 不錯 社長都沒有舉手你是商業發展署嘛 對不對"},{"start":173.484,"end":199.111,"text":"所以就跟各位都有關係嘛應該整體來講就是說勞動部、交通部、經濟部都有關啦所以這部法律要訂定在那一個新的一個範疇裡面可能全部的部會都要坐下來好好思考我想這個院版才會定出更真完備的這樣的一個對外送員的權利的相關保障嘛因為外送員絕對跟平台有直接的關係嘛 對不對好 那我現在寫給部長看一個東西喔"},{"start":200.1,"end":223.722,"text":"不然這 對不起啦 麻煩你念這四個字好不好你看到這四個字進行機車 進行機車嘛 好道路交通管理處署條例當然是交通部管的那機車在 騎在進行機車上要花多少錢你吃辣啦 今天問你都沒什麼人知道這個事情這樣這個發生什麼事啦"},{"start":228.416,"end":242.451,"text":"是用處罰條例的相關規定來處罰啦我知道啦 花多少錢啦多少錢喔我已經講了你還講錢可能要查一下要查一下六百塊啦好不好 我跟你講 六百六百 好不好 六百"},{"start":244.131,"end":269.823,"text":"600對我們不算多嘛對外送員來講是很多可能他一顛的收入就不見了600在所有處罰條例的罰款裡頭算是比較我知道啦 那就是我現在針對外送員的事情嘛對不對好 那很多人一定會納悶這個進行機車跟外送員的關係是什麼嘛跟外送員的職場環境的關係是什麼嘛 對不對甚至有人說外送員你如果不要去騎這邊就不會被罰600的嗎"},{"start":271.721,"end":274.312,"text":"就不會被受罰了嘛應該是這麼說嘛 對不對實際上是這樣嘛"},{"start":278.185,"end":306.223,"text":"我給部長看 跟次長看一個新聞嘛這個走40分 外送遠送醫院背胸太慢 還給護平有外送我們抱怨 接到龍總的訂單 北龍啦但醫院方有規定禁止騎車入內 於是徒步送餐花了快40分結果你醫護一見面就前太晚 太慢 事後還給護平大嘆 難怪沒有人要跑這個龍總的單然後也掉出相當多的這樣的苦準"},{"start":307.003,"end":313.412,"text":"我不曉得部長次長對這事情怎麼看像平台業者派這樣的單你們怎麼看"},{"start":319.211,"end":340.242,"text":"這確實因為等於是外送員如果接到這樣的單可能會多出蠻多的時間上面的成本所以可能會有一些外送員在如果接到這樣的單的時候他可能就會想要他不想跑這樣的單這是可以理解的對啊 他不想跑這個單但是平台業者就派他去要送這個單怎麼辦"},{"start":343.076,"end":371.218,"text":"在程序上面他們應該是可以拒單可是可以拒單可是外送員也會擔心因為他們常會擔心如果拒單的話會不會在整個演算法的機制裡面會被做一些不利以後派單的記錄對這是他們會擔心的地方如果外送員也無視這個健行機車這四個字他進去醫院就直接滑600嘛就他一天可能就不見他的相關的一些酬勞了嘛對不對然後"},{"start":373.046,"end":393.613,"text":"然後平台業者會合理說要起訴給這些外送員還是要讓這些外送員繼續承擔這樣的事情就你們的理解啦對 所以在這個狀況下外送員會很為難會很為難嘛好 交通部次長有沒有什麼要表達的嗎"},{"start":395.278,"end":424.027,"text":"還有商業發展署有關這個派送剛才講到進行機車我的了解在這裡面應該是院區的管理跟剛才特別提到在外面進行機車的管理規定是不一樣的就這樣但是如何派單讓它合理我想這個以後大概在這個平台的管理上可以來加強所以你們未來要訂這個法律的時候會不會有所規範"},{"start":427.867,"end":448.664,"text":"未來要訂這個新的法律要保障我們外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障我們的全名叫做外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案會不會把這個納入時間的關係啦不曉得等一下再回跟委員說明我們的確是會在思考假設要法治化的話那"},{"start":450.151,"end":475.036,"text":"应该要在条文里面更明确的去设定如果如果外送员拒单或因为这些原因拒单的话这个平台不应该给予不利的记录那用这个方式所以如果如果外送员不会因为害怕被不利的对待而能够有拒单的权利的时候那平台也必须思考或者是像"},{"start":475.996,"end":501.257,"text":"北榮應該去思考 或這樣子的地點去思考說怎麼樣子能夠讓這事情能夠真的比較符合多方權益的運作起來北榮已經有思考 北榮也已經有做一些調整了齁我再講一段啦齁這其實外送也不怕多走這一段路啦但是他們也會怕生財工具被拖掉部長跟次長可以看北榮周遭的環境全部都是紅線他連機車要停外面都沒有機會"},{"start":503.308,"end":520.235,"text":"像這樣的環境 諸如此類非常非常多 我不曉得你們有沒有掌握如果假設他們裡面有停車格那也被探病看病了 早就已經停滿了所以他們要怎麼辦這是一個樣態 兩個樣態然後再來"},{"start":524.656,"end":554.048,"text":"我剛剛特別提到說北龍在看這則新聞之後人家他們馬上因應了他馬上設置三處的外送點讓外送人員可以入院 停車 送外送但是我剛剛講說很多 住院 百貨公司車站周遭 甚至於某大型的有一個大型社區叫什麼社區那個是網友號稱的魔王社區也有魔王社區不是七月喔是每天都有一個魔王社區然後還有類似中校西路"},{"start":555.462,"end":579.494,"text":"整條街整條都是健行機車如果平台業者派外送你到那個地方怎麼辦所以我要講的就是說這個我們在法律在訂的時候可能都要把它納入整個思考的範疇裡面這訂出來的法律才真的是保障從業人員也對相關的這個外送的平台的管理才會"},{"start":580.735,"end":600.052,"text":"才會得以啦 應該是這麼講好 然後我再給你看漾太山啦真的沒有最扯 只有更扯啦不是那個超扯 超扯那個全國外送產業工會指出桃園一家木瓜牛奶店地點建在這個桃園機場第二行下的二樓店家還註明外送員騎車進不來 請搭捷運"},{"start":605.265,"end":628.979,"text":"好 各位可以開箱一下根據全國外送產業公會計算這張可能要倒賠先不算步行的時間光捷運就需要耗費21分鐘左右至於這個平台許可店家時難道沒有經過相關的審核評估嗎這種店家根本就不應該出現在這種系統上還有另外一個是在位於中壢的服務區高速公路中壢的服務區裡面"},{"start":631.232,"end":650.175,"text":"所以我才特別提到說平台業者到底是誰狹管的嘛誰主著的嘛那你剛跟我講七家四家你們管那三家是誰管的如果平台業者的一個主管機關到現在都還是事權不一那可能你們在管理平台業者的本身的問題就會特別多這問題又來了"},{"start":653.649,"end":675.659,"text":"不能平台業者只管派單嘛 對不對然後也不顧他派單那個地點的合理性嘛這個你們要規範啊 這個你們要處理啊這個你們要管理啊法律有沒有把這個範疇放進來如果平台業者持續這個樣子平台業者必須要遭受到我們主管機關的省壓的一個處置嘛"},{"start":681.082,"end":697.132,"text":"對我想委員剛才特別提到的就是說派遣的那個到那個派單的地方他是不是可以停車是不是可以可及等等的這後可能在所謂的派單系統上的時候可能要來做一些考量"},{"start":698.264,"end":725.687,"text":"不然我特別強調平台月子不能只管派單嘛完全不顧這個地點的這樣的一個合理性嘛對不對然後要外送人自己去承受這樣的交通違規啦還是說其他安全的隱患的風險嘛萬一有一天出事了政府機關誰要來負責這是每天在上演的事情每天都在上演現在也在上演嘛對不對所以我在提供樣態式啦"},{"start":729.275,"end":749.743,"text":"這個外送機車維庭比例逐年上升公會也判開放更多這個臨庭區然後交通部運營院所也認為有其必要性不過劃設屬於地方自治權限那問題來了喔你交通部說的 要啦 要設啦但是這是地方的管理啦"},{"start":751.057,"end":767.012,"text":"這跟宿舍跟寶庭你檢討這件事道理一樣嘛到底是誰要管 市政府要管還是就授權給地方政府去管會不會一國二十二個字然後有些地方該就像北農趕快設置這個外送平台的這個停車的一個專屬的位置那有的縣市就不設"},{"start":777.437,"end":782.456,"text":"那我們這個火力如果定出來這些都沒有兼顧到那這個火力到底是適合哪個縣市用"},{"start":785.523,"end":807.922,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個其實這個議題其實不是在這裡面發生的你擴大一點來看的話其實現在有關很多的貨運業者在運送的時候也經常會面臨到適當的地方去停車來做相關的配送所以這一部分的交通部其實在這應該是在最近幾年大概都已經有在請各也就是這裡講到因為"},{"start":808.462,"end":833.068,"text":"很多的交通管理事項的劃設等等是在地方所以大概都是跟地方政府大家共同來討論希望地方政府能夠去劃設相關的一個停等區或是黃線的部分開放紅線讓黃線可以去臨時停車這個大概都是持續在檢討中那這一部分如果以後在做外送員管理的時候我們大概也會就這一部分來特別加以注意"},{"start":833.713,"end":856.67,"text":"你們這幾年有討論嘛 但是這幾年這些事情持續不斷的在發生嘛剛剛你有講的有幾個像宅便啊什麼 放進來 持續喔所以我們可以發現現在很多的縣市大概都有劃設這種貨運的停等區啊 或是等等的都有這樣 類似像剛才你講的那個對 所以有些縣市有劃嘛 等於就是有些縣市還沒有劃嘛你們討論這幾年之後還是一國多治嘛 這也是事實啊"},{"start":857.41,"end":880.971,"text":"這個我們再來要求你們要求是要到什麼時候才可以中華民國針對這種外送員還有相關你所提到的宅便等等等這些運送業有一個依照法律事實規範劃設出來的這樣的一個卸貨區還是送貨區還是一個停等區要多久時間嗎"},{"start":882.692,"end":895.778,"text":"這個因為還是一樣啦因為要跟地方政府大家共同來討論但是我們會來我知道你要跟地方政府來討論但是就討論很久了啊我們會在相關的會議裡頭來做要求或者是相關的這個場合上來跟地方政府共同來討論"},{"start":897.948,"end":924.94,"text":"因為這個是不可能說我時間到了因為我們現在就要訂這個新華嘛對不對然後我們回歸到頭來先講外送員的相關的這樣權利問題的情況之下你這些一併要考慮進去啦你考慮進去的時候如果你又複製過去的那個貨運的還是宅便的情況之下好像之前事情處理不好延伸到現在訂了新的法律一樣還是處理不好啊"},{"start":926.053,"end":947.583,"text":"還是會這樣發生啊 還是會一國多治啊我今天來只是要提醒這樣的事情那你們應該明確跟我講說 你跟勞動部跟我們經濟部可以一個月內針對這樣的事情我們有一套很完整的制度 到時候會入華會真正的來保障這些外送員的相關的一些權利啊應該是這樣才對嘛"},{"start":948.966,"end":960.531,"text":"委員剛才所提到的這些需要在法令面來加以補強或是加以規定的部分剛才部長在有特別提到而後專法的時候他會"},{"start":961.392,"end":979.595,"text":"會整個 我想我們會有相關的一個要求專法裡面還是一定有你交通部所佔的比重啦這是跑不掉的啦 一看就是很清楚嘛我們會把這樣的委員剛才提到的需要考慮的事項在這專法裡頭來予以規範"},{"start":980.986,"end":993.515,"text":"我是真的不要每天都好像這個外送員還是這個用路人還是還是相關的這些業別好像大家都在拚運氣"},{"start":1011.007,"end":1016.853,"text":"能不能討論出更真完備的這樣相關的一些規範跟保障好不好 可以吧好 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1263,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時53分）謝謝主席，今天排這個案子非常重要，我們先請部長，好不好？"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，今天有很多委員都針對外送員的權益問題質詢洪部長，因為是要制定一個新的法律，相關的權益保障也會在外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法的草案中進行討論，我也聽到部長承諾會把行政院的版本弄出來，對不對？基本上，制定新法要從許多面向去思考，因此今天召委排這個議程是讓我們大家可以從不同面向提供意見給行政單位作為制定最佳法律的依據。","我要從外送員職場環境安全的問題來討論，其中牽涉到幾個部會？我要從外送員職場環境安全的範圍來討論，牽涉到今天出席的哪幾個單位？"],["洪部長申翰：交通部、我們的職安署、數位部，主要就是如此。"],["劉委員建國：這樣而已嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：安全的部分。"],["劉委員建國：平台業者的登錄是由誰轄管？"],["洪部長申翰：現在治理平台業者的權責單位是交通部，行政院訂的。"],["劉委員建國：平台業者的登錄是交通部？平台業者是誰管的？如果到現在都不知道平台業者是由誰管的，這個法律要怎麼定呢？"],["洪部長申翰：現在平台業者的治理單位應該是交通部吧！"],["劉委員建國：還不上來嗎？陳次，我都問成這樣了，你還不上來？部長一直提醒你，你也真是奇怪了！平台業者是向交通部登記嗎？平台業者？"],["陳次長彥伯：現在的7家平台業者中，大概有4家是向我們登記為汽車運輸業。"],["劉委員建國：向你們登記為汽車運輸業？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，但也不是……"],["劉委員建國：7家中有4家，另外3家是向誰登記？還是都不需要登記，只要作為平台業者就可以馬上指揮外送員到哪邊去送餐？"],["陳次長彥伯：其他是用商業登記的方式。"],["劉委員建國：商業登記，由誰管呢？有人舉手了，謝謝！不錯！次長都沒有舉手。","你是商業發展署，對不對？因此，與各位其實都有關係嘛！整體來講，與勞動部、交通部及經濟部都有關，針對這部法令要訂定的新範疇，可能全部的部會都要坐下來好好思考，我想這個院版才能定出更臻完備的外送員相關保障，因為外送員絕對與平台有直接的關係，對不對？","現在給部長看一個東西，麻煩你唸出這四個字，好不好？你看到的這四個字，麻煩你。"],["洪部長申翰：禁行機車。"],["劉委員建國：道路交通管理處罰條例當然是歸交通部管理，機車騎在禁行機車的道路上要罰多少錢？今天問你們這些問題都沒什麼人知道答案，這樣要如何訂定這個法律？"],["陳次長彥伯：這是用處罰條例的相關規定來處罰。"],["劉委員建國：我知道啦！罰多少錢？"],["陳次長彥伯：多少錢喔？"],["劉委員建國：我都已經把法律講了，你還講？"],["陳次長彥伯：罰金的部分可能要查一下。"],["劉委員建國：要查一下？我告訴你，600元，好不好？600元對我們不算多，但對外送員來講是很多，可能他一天的收入就不見了，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：600元在所有處罰條例的罰鍰裡算是比較……"],["劉委員建國：我知道啦，但是我現在是針對外送員的事情嘛！很多人一定會納悶這個禁行機車跟外送員的關係是什麼嘛，跟外送員的職場環境的關係是什麼嘛，對不對？甚至有人說外送員如果不要騎到這邊就不會被罰600元了，就不會受罰了，應該是這麼說嘛，對不對？實際上是這樣嗎？我給部長跟次長看一個新聞，標題是：走40分！外送員送醫院被兇太慢「還給負評」。新聞內容提到有外送員抱怨，最近接到來自榮總（北榮）的訂單，但因院方有規定禁止騎車入內，於是他徒步進去送餐，花了快40分鐘，結果女醫護一見到面就嫌送太慢，事後還被給予負評，大嘆「難怪沒人想跑榮總單」，也釣出許多苦主回應。我不曉得部長、次長對這個事情怎麼看，像平台業者派這樣的單，你們怎麼看？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，如果外送員接到這樣的單，可能會多出滿多的時間成本，所以可能會有些外送員不想跑這樣的單，這是可以理解的。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，他不想跑這個單，但是平台業者就派他去送這個單，怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：在程序上面，他們應該是可以拒單，可是……"],["劉委員建國：可以拒單？"],["洪部長申翰：可是外送員也會擔心，他們擔心如果拒單的話，會不會在整個演算法的機制裡面會被做一些不利以後派單的紀錄，這是他們會擔心的地方。"],["劉委員建國：對，部長講到一個重點了。如果外送員也無視「禁行機車」這四個字，他進去醫院就直接罰600元嘛，他一天的部分酬勞可能就不見了嘛，對不對？然後平台業者會合理的說要給付給這些外送員，還是會讓這些外送員繼續承擔這樣的事情？就你們的理解啦。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以在這個狀況下，外送員會很為難。"],["劉委員建國：會很為難嘛！交通部陳次長有沒有什麼要表達的嗎？還有商業發展署。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，委員，有關派送，剛才講到「禁行機車」的部分，就我的了解，這個應該是院區的管理，跟剛才特別提到在外面「禁行機車」的規定是不一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：就這樣？"],["陳次長彥伯：但是如何派單，讓它合理，我想以後在這個平台的管理上可以加強。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們未來要訂這個法律的時候會不會有所規範？未來要訂這個新的法律，要保障我們外送平台管理暨從業人員的權益，我們的法案全名叫做「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法」，到時候會不會把這個納入？","時間的關係，部長，你等一下再……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們的確會思考假設要法制化的話，應該要在條文裡面更明確的去規定，如果外送員拒單，因為這些原因拒單的話，這個平台不應該給予不利的紀錄，用這個方式。所以，如果外送員不會因為害怕被不利對待而能夠有拒單權利的時候，平台也必須思考，或者是北榮也應該去思考，或著有這樣地點的消費者應該去思考，怎麼樣讓這個事情能夠真的比較符合多方權益的運作起來。"],["劉委員建國：北榮已經有思考而且也已經有做一些調整了。我再講一段啦，其實外送員也不怕多走這一段路，但是他們也會怕生財工具被拖吊。部長跟次長可以看，北榮周遭的環境全部都是紅線，連機車要停外面都沒有機會，像這樣的環境，諸如此類的非常非常多，我不曉得你們有沒有掌握？如果他們裡面有停車格，早就已經被探病、看病的人停滿了，所以他們要怎麼辦？這是兩個樣態啦。","再來，我剛剛特別提到，北榮看到這則新聞後有馬上因應，馬上設置了三處外送點，讓外送人員可以入院停車送外送。但是我剛剛講到有很多，諸如醫院、百貨公司、車站周遭，甚至於某大型社區，被網友號稱為魔王社區，也有魔王社區，不是7月喔，是每天都有一個魔王社區，還有類似忠孝西路整條都禁行機車，如果平台業者派外送員到那個地方怎麼辦？所以我要講的就是，我們在制定法律的時候可能都要把它納入整個思考的範疇裡面，這樣定出來的法律才真的能保障從業人員，對相關外送平台的管理才會得宜啦，應該這麼講。","然後我再給你們看樣態三，真的沒有最扯只有更扯，不是那個超扯超扯那個。全國外送產業工會指出，桃園一家木瓜牛奶店，地點在桃園機場第二航廈地下2樓，店家還註明：外送員騎車進不來，請搭捷運。好，各位可以看開箱一下。根據全國外送產業工會計算，這張可能要倒賠，先不算步行的時間，光捷運就需要耗費21分鐘左右，質疑平台許可店家時，難道沒經過相關審核、評估嗎？這種店家根本就不應該出現在系統上。此外，該店家在桃園的另一家店是位於高速公路的中壢服務區裡面。所以我才特別提到平台業者到底是誰轄管的嘛？誰主責的嘛？你剛剛跟我講7家，4家是你們管，那另外3家是誰管的？如果平台業者的主管機關到現在都還是事權不一，可能你們在管理平台業者本身的問題就會特別多，這樣問題又來了啊！不能平台業者只管派單嘛，對不對？然後也不顧派單地點的合理性，這個你們要規範，這個你們要處理，這個你們要管理啊！法律有沒有把這個範疇放進來？如果平台業者持續這個樣子，平台業者必須要遭受到我們主管機關怎樣的一個處置？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我想委員剛才特別提到的就是派單的地方是不是可以停車，是不是可及等等的，爾後可能在所謂的派單系統上要來做一些考量。"],["劉委員建國：次長、部長，我特別強調啦，平台業者不能只管派單，完全不顧地點的合理性嘛，對不對？然後要外送員自己去承受交通違規或是其他安全的隱患或風險，萬一有一天出事了，政府機關誰要來負責？這是每天在上演的事情啊，每天都在上演，現在也在上演嘛，對不對？","我再提供樣態四啦，新聞標題是「外送機車違停比例逐年上升工會盼判開放更多臨停區」，然後交通部運研所也認為有其必要性，不過劃設屬於地方自治權限。問題來了喔，你們交通部說要設，但是這是地方的權力，這跟那天我私下與部長檢討這個事情的道理一樣嘛，到底是誰要管？是交通部要管還是授權給地方政府去管？會不會一國22制？然後有些地方，就像北榮趕快設置一個外送平台停車的專屬位置，有的縣市就不設，我們這個法律如果定出來卻都沒有兼顧到這些，那麼這個法律到底適合哪個縣市用？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，其實這個議題不只是在這裡會發生，擴大一點來看的話，其實現在很多貨運業者在運送的時候也經常會面臨到沒有適當地方去停車做相關的配送，所以這個部分交通部其實在最近幾年大概都已經有在請……也就是這裡講到的，因為很多的交通管理事項劃設等等是在地方，所以大概都是跟地方政府大家共同來討論，希望地方政府能夠去劃設相關的停等區或是黃線部分，開放紅線、黃線可以臨時停車，這個大概都是持續在檢討中，如果以後在規範外送員管理的時候，我們大概也會就這一部分來特別加以注意。"],["劉委員建國：你們這幾年有討論，但是這幾年這些事情持續不斷的在發生嘛，剛剛你講到幾個，像宅便啦什麼的都放進來，持續喔……"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們可以發現很多的縣市大概都有劃設這種貨運停等區等等的，都有類似像剛才講的北榮……"],["劉委員建國：對，所以有些縣市有劃嘛，等於就是有些縣市還沒有劃嘛，你們討論這幾年之後還是一國多制嘛，這也是事實啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們會再來要求。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你們要求是要到什麼時候才可以？中華民國針對外送員還有像你所提到的宅便等等，讓這些運送業有一個依照法律事實規範劃設出來的卸貨區還是送貨區還是停等區，要多久時間？"],["陳次長彥伯：還是一樣，因為要跟地方政府大家共同來討論，但是我們會來……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你要跟地方政府討論，但是已經討論很久啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會在相關的會議裡頭來做要求，或者是相關的場合上跟地方政府共同討論，因為這個不可能說我今天講了，下週就改……"],["劉委員建國：我時間到了，不是，因為我們現在就要訂這個新法，對不對？我們回到頭來先講外送員相關權益的問題，在這樣的情況之下，你這些一併要考慮進去，但如果你考慮的時候又複製過去貨運還是宅便的情況之下，這件事情處理不好，延伸到現在要訂新的法律，一樣還是會處理不好啊，還是會再發生啊，還是會一國多制啊！我今天來只是要提醒這樣的事情，你們應該明確跟我講，你跟勞動部、經濟部可以在一個月內針對這樣的事情，你們有一套很完整的制度，到時候會入法，會真正的來保障這些外送員相關的一些權益，應該是這樣才對吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員剛才所提到的這些需要在法令面來加以補強或是加以規定的部分，剛才部長大概有特別提到，爾後專法的時候，我想我們會有相關的要求來納入……"],["劉委員建國：專法裡面還是一定有你交通部所占的比重，這是跑不掉的啦！這一看就很清楚嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會把委員剛才提到需要考慮的事項在這專法裡頭來予以規範。"],["劉委員建國：不要讓外送員還是用路人還是相關的這些同業別覺得好像大家都要拼運氣，「好運得時鐘」，運氣不好的就收到紅單，運氣不好的就要被送去關，不要搞到最後變成這個樣子啦，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好。"],["劉委員建國：我請部長、次長還有經濟部商業發展署是不是能在一個月內討論出更臻完備的一些相關規範跟保障，好不好？可以吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我們來研議。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：謝謝劉建國委員、謝謝部長。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da09b1857e7a94ac7234f1f132b5784e0488cc85b2f3b90c2273ba05b5d17d06145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"13:45:49 - 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in one、four in one。它既是民生議題、又是經濟產業，它有許多從業人員是青年族群，也有許多是弱勢族群，因此，針對這個four in one的民生經濟法案，我希望大家就理性來對話，而不是在這裡噴政治口水。","今天我要替你抱屈，事實上，因應外送員這個新興經濟模式、全新的產業，你是歷任勞動部長中勇敢接球的那個人，並不是踢球的那個人，怎麼接球的洪申翰部長在今天被罵到臭頭，我實在是替你抱屈！這個法在過去有很多立法技術的困難就是誰要擔任本法的主管機關，洪申翰部長、勞動部同仁勇敢的承擔了責任，我想我是給予肯定的！而我也認為與其法要立得快，更要立得好，因為這是一個專法，也是一個全新的立法，不應當為快而快。本屆的立法院有一個最大的弊病，我們立法委員就是把法立好或是把法修好，而不是把法搞爛啊！剛剛有委員在這裡垂詢你有沒有去找提案的A委員、B委員、C委員逐一討論溝通，我承認吳思瑤與洪部長討論很多次，為什麼？因為我主動打電話給他，請他來一起溝通及討論。我想問一下，剛剛委員所提的這幾位有提案的委員，無論是王鴻薇委員或民眾黨的委員有像吳思瑤或民進黨團關心的委員主動一而再、再而三的邀請你約時間討論嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：只要委員有邀請，我們都願意參與。"],["吳委員思瑤：是嘛！既然委員關心就主動邀請，其實申翰也是來自於立法院，相信與委員的溝通無礙嘛！在此我要為你們抱屈，也要給你們鼓勵、送暖、支持，無論如何，這個法的催生，我們現在就上路，而且它是一個不折不扣的民生經濟法案，不要再有政治口水。","關於民進黨團的版本，我們未來就來比一比，產業要有競爭力、立法也要有競爭力，我們羅列了民進黨團在這個法案上的十大亮點，我在這裡都列舉出來了，很重要的一個觀點、一個介面是六大部會全投入，部會要清楚分工。我看其他的版本，無論是國民黨委員的版本或民眾黨委員的版本就是勞動部，其他跨部會的業務就不管了，這是不可行的。因此，民進黨團的版本，第一個，我們負責任的立法，各部會、六大部會全力投入，只有民進黨團的版本有這樣的立法。第二個，在運費與最低工資可以雙重保障外送員的基本報酬，也只有民進黨團的版本最全面。當然我們看到羅廷瑋委員、王育敏、王鴻薇及民眾黨團的版本也有一些些著墨，但民進黨團是雙重保障、最全面。第三個，民進黨團特別重視外送員的離線權，有三個在野黨的版本是沒有的。還有平台不得片面終止契約，也就是不能隨意、任意的停權，這個部分只有民進黨團是only one唯一的版本，其他的版本付之闕如。還有建立外送員的申訴管道，並成立一個有外聘專家導入的爭議申訴處理的小組，以保障外送員的勞動權益，也只有民進黨團有這樣的版本，其他的6個版本都沒有提及。","接下來是外送員的職災保費，很重要喔！其他委員的版本也許有提到職災保險，但是由誰來負擔，他們並沒有提，只有民進黨團的版本清楚的讓外送員的職災保費由平台負擔，我們入法了。同樣的，商業保險入法也是民進黨團的版本，當然鴻薇委員的版本也有。再來是擬定平台及外送員、消費者、店家之間的定型化契約，民進黨團的版本最全面，在野黨有三個版本沒有提到。最後二個是消費者及外送員的個資保護很重要，而民進黨團的版本也是將個資的保護入法，而且平台必須承擔記錄保存的責任，相關機關則擁有調閱權，這些都是為了保障消費者、也同步保障店家。我們的法要立得周延，法案要有競爭力，才能夠幫助產業的競爭力全面提升。我非常負責任的彙整了現在所有版本的利弊得失，希望未來在討論的時候，大家都可以理性對話。","最後，因為你會提出院版，我要提醒排案的召委，委員很用心，當然我們也很願意等院版，否則會陷入一個狀況，對照所有的版本，但要用哪一個版本作為參照版本修條次？因為彼此的差距很大，如果在院版端出來之後，大家一起用院版作為審查的參照，也許在條次的對應上就比較能夠有所依循。否則，你看民進黨團的25條在各方面都有，但是如果要請廖委員以民進黨團的版本作為參照的主體，可能也為難了你！事實上，如果沒有一個參照的母體版本，每位委員的條次與規範的面向，在未來的立法過程中，真的會遭受很大的困難。如果委員會有共識，也在這裡請示召委，若能有院版作為參照，後續的討論會更有品質、也更有效率，這是我的提醒。","我們就與所有勞動部的同仁們一起加油，當然包括其他的部會，交通部有責任、數發部有責任、經濟部有責任、金管會有責任、勞動部有責任、行政部的消保處也有責任，所有的部會一起動起來，沒有人是局外人，但我還是要謝謝勞動部勇敢的承擔，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員發言。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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那我們現在繼續進行會議接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好 謝謝我們主席翁朝偉我們請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":26.96,"end":50.454,"text":"好有請王富密委員早早安早上聽到很多同仁在這邊的一個討論我覺得也蠻正面蠻有效度的所以也很謝謝那個司法院對於那個剛才翁委員講的那個報告我也是非常期待你們的一些看法所以你們應該在不同的一個面向可以提出一些讓大家"},{"start":50.894,"end":79.913,"text":"比较能够正面来思考更缜密的从一个司法的观点上来看法官不语跟法官要语的这件事情好谢谢本席今天针对几个长期有在关注的事情来跟你们做个讨论本席长期关注有关于少年司法的问题今天要谈的是本席的观察少年司法跟行政辅导体系之间有一些割裂的现象"},{"start":81.054,"end":94.52,"text":"我們整個少年偏差的行為常常家庭 學校 社會很多從壓力交織而產生了某一些結果但是司法跟行政體系如果銜接沒有那麼有效度的話再多的制度也其實會變成一種空談"},{"start":96.141,"end":112.633,"text":"所以依據少年事件處理法的第三條的規定那麼符合一定偏差行為的少年由少年法院來處理那麼法院可以依同法的第25條來請求警政教育醫療等系統的一個協助或者依照42條開整合協調的會議但實際運作的範圍目前多局限在處法"},{"start":117.697,"end":138.513,"text":"或曝險少年那麼對於偏差行為還沒有觸發的高風險的少年那整個的介入的能量依本席的觀察有點不足所以根據現行少年偏差行為預防及這個輔導的辦法第二條的這個規定少年的偏差行為包含了逃家離家還有幫派結交深夜會外出暴力行為"},{"start":139.053,"end":164.339,"text":"一些這個十多種的情形那這些行為如果早期能夠早一點介入來有效的引導可能會讓未來走向形式化的處遇的情形變少那本席發現實務上這些少年往往在管轄模糊帶那有些教育機構呢認為少府會會處理少府會呢又會認為不符開案條件那設政機關呢又認為保護個案為由大家都不介入"},{"start":164.779,"end":183.307,"text":"結果最後最關鍵的時機就因此而延誤了所以我們希望能夠正視這個制度性的一個落差那麼司法院你們有權來召開跨機關的協調會議那麼根據現行的法制行政院跟司法院有定期召開相關的會議嗎"},{"start":184.992,"end":207.799,"text":"有嗎有好那但是呢相關的這個規定是法律上只說得召開那麼沒有說應召開那也沒有相關的單位來負責追蹤所以本席幾個問題第一個是司法院跟行政院那過去幾年總共召開多少跨院級的少年事件政策協商平台會議那就頻率上有多少"},{"start":208.579,"end":224.319,"text":"就這一點 司法院和行政院的政策平台會議是一年兩次都有固定在進行一年兩次嘛 是是不是針對過去五年相關的追蹤相關會議裡面的追蹤報告提供給本席"},{"start":224.659,"end":239.354,"text":"可以好那第二部分呢是目前少年法院跟地方少府會的協作有沒有明確的通報機制那麼少年法院呢不付審理或轉向處分的時候少府會是不是及時接手確保不中斷的輔導鏈"},{"start":241.015,"end":244.077,"text":"這個部分容我請那個廳長來那廳長很簡短的精準的回應好嗎謝謝委員那這一部分原則上都有做這樣的一個所謂的連結的會議那不務審理的或者是所謂的交嚴管或告誡也會轉介過去那聽起來你們是有嗎"},{"start":263.312,"end":291.09,"text":"要不然就把相关的这个比较细节性本席这边比较强调你们的频率还有结果是什么那是不是把相关资料提供给本席因为您这边说有嘛好不好那第三个部分是呢司法院是不是要研拟的一个修法的方向然后来将跨院级协商的平台制度化常态化那么并设置专职的单位跟跨机关的这个资源整合的这个平台来做政策追踪"},{"start":292.856,"end":321.329,"text":"是不是可以研議然後來實行呢是 委員剛剛委員的說明的槌尋那其中有一個部分比較難克服就是因為在CRC就是這個兒權公約裡面落實在內國法化以後我國少年司法必須是最小化來約束這個所謂的非行少年處罰少年或偏差但是你們有沒有去觀察到那自從這樣子之後呢"},{"start":322.449,"end":329.536,"text":"那整個的這個在邵氏的這個處理上是不是有效度嗎還是現在變成一個三不管地帶原則上在108年修法以後把邵氏法有關剛剛委員說的曝險偏差等都移到這個所謂的這個邵府會"},{"start":343.168,"end":357.623,"text":"那你們有沒有追蹤呢 少府會那這樣子對於整個後來的這個犯罪處意還有到最後犯罪化的一個路徑是不是到最後是那個在這段過程裡面問題可能比較沒有看得到可是問題在後面發生了 你們"},{"start":358.504,"end":381.764,"text":"你們的看法呢少府會這一端我們各縣市各少年法庭這個本席在先前問過很多次就是少府會各縣市政府都有但是本席這邊提到就是說那你們真正了解少府會在執行的一個狀況嗎還有少府會的這個困難你們知不知道本席很快的講啦因為在這樣繼續本席是很有階段性的來追蹤這件事情是不是這樣啦這整個"},{"start":384.847,"end":413.01,"text":"整個是社會結構性的一個問題那麼如果這個部分現在把它推往後面也就是犯罪化的這個部分會越來越多那我們看到的少府會其實他們很多時候是叫不動人的所以教育 社政 司法就變成各自為政很重要的一個狀況是本席在先前其實有提到中央是不是應該設立一個專職的少府會的平台來研議不僅固定召開的機制"},{"start":413.43,"end":420.206,"text":"然後還要專責單位的追蹤跟成效的評估那至少這個部分你們可以給本席一個專業的報告吧"},{"start":422.324,"end":441.639,"text":"本席已經提過很多次上次上次是上次的質詢那我已經提過這個概念了那你們對於這個部分的研議你知道本席講的問題嗎就是說當你覺得少府會現在以最小程度去影響的話呢那是不是他問題是往後推了我不知道你們沒有追蹤這個部分還有少府會實際執行的狀況他們叫得動其他相關單位嗎"},{"start":445.842,"end":457.688,"text":"那如果中央沒有相關的錢跟相關的人那地方的這個可能很多時候在施政的前後順序上就會被影響了你了解我講的意思嗎"},{"start":459.295,"end":482.339,"text":"如果不了解麻煩你們會後再來跟本席確定好嗎那最重要是本席提出來一個中央的少婦會的這個平台那這樣子的延期報告希望你們能夠在兩個月之內給本席好嗎這個本席其實之前有講過相關的議題這個是本席一直在關心的但是現在只是做階段性的確認你們目前的進度可以嗎"},{"start":486.401,"end":505.807,"text":"接下來本席要跟您討論的是司法人力的問題我想人力不足還有負擔太重一直是本席先前也一直關心的問題整個司法品質跟人權的課題會跟基層司法人力過勞會有很大的影響"},{"start":506.867,"end":530.972,"text":"所以根據你們的統計在111年度到今天法院的案量逐漸攀升其實這跟本席剛才在講的概念有點接近你們現在不是哪一個階段問題在這邊沒有發生後面就不會發生了所以你們看全國法院的案量逐年在攀升111年新收的案件大概有45萬件"},{"start":533.233,"end":556.292,"text":"45万多件后面零头本席就先省略112年度又增加到了48万多件然后113年度增加到了51万多件每年的成长幅度都超过一成其实是114年度7月底新收案件跟上年度的同期相比增幅已经达到了8.1这样的趋势其实没有减缓"},{"start":557.557,"end":573.015,"text":"但是在這個同時呢平均結案的日數卻拉長111年度平均結案的時間大概在99天左右112年度上升到了100天左右那麼113年就直接上升到106天那麼"},{"start":575.177,"end":602.542,"text":"沒有結案的也從這個八萬一千多件呢達到了十萬多件那後面這個數字是不是後面代表的是法官書記官法官助理長期會過勞所以在去年四月社會發生了一件痛心的事情士林地院這個法官自殺那傳訊給妻子的內容是壓力大很累那各位你們覺得這樣子的事情應該發生嗎"},{"start":605.807,"end":622.558,"text":"這其實不是一個單純的工作分配的問題司法整個長期人力負荷還有績效比跟心理上的一個負擔這個問題在司法改革裡面我相信你們應該有討論但是法條制度跟資訊化的建設"},{"start":624.739,"end":637.527,"text":"比不上好好來關係承載這一切的人那麼如果人沒有被當成主體來照顧的話那久了之後也是會失去靈魂的不知道您的看法是如何"},{"start":638.633,"end":654.048,"text":"謝謝委員關心槌尋這個問題確實就是說 我們法院的案件每年事實上 收案都是一直在逐步增加的是啊 收案增加 然後結案日也延長特別是刑事案件 我們的統計數字從111年到113年"},{"start":658.712,"end":682.847,"text":"那個地方法院都平均都已經有成長到百分之十二到那個十五之間那高院跟最高法院都是這樣子一個趨向但是我們相對的我們每年那個人力沒有辦法增加那我們也面臨了就是我們總緣額法就是全部在司法體系的總緣額法是一萬五千的那個上限所以你們怎麼克服本席剛才講的那個問題呢所以就是我們現在那個"},{"start":683.647,"end":709.089,"text":"我們現在也是很積極的就是去跟相關單位去跟他們反映我們的問題就是說第一個看總融合法能不能突破這是一點那第二個我們司法院就是也採取了各種措施就是說怎麼樣去優化這一些程序讓程序上面可不可以就是比較精簡那這樣本席希望你提供幾個具體的相關資料"},{"start":712.071,"end":729.331,"text":"那麼你們今年是不是有在針對案件暴增跟審理負荷進行全面性的分析有沒有相關的資料因為你現在回答大概時間上也不夠了目前各地方法院平均每個法案法官跟書記官的案量是多少"},{"start":729.952,"end":744.974,"text":"然後第二個部分呢是第一線心理人第一線人員的這個心理健康跟過勞的防治目前正式的支持跟申訴的機制是如何那麼你們如何健全健治健康檢測跟心理輔導的制度"},{"start":745.655,"end":770.734,"text":"那第三個部分是目前你們針對案件分流方面有些什麼改革那麼像輕微的案件的處理還有電子調節AI輔助等等目前做到哪裡那麼針對即將達到的進度落實的情形是如何那你可不可以簡短回應有做的或者是還沒有做的或者是您要怎麼樣提供給本席相關的這個資料可不可以簡單的回應"},{"start":771.354,"end":787.711,"text":"委員時間的關係我們可以提出一份報告那就有關於第三點那個案件分流的部分這個也是我們現在司法行政在倡導的就是說希望那個案件來的時候可以先有一個審查的機制就是讓它分流所以現在有了嗎你們在倡導但是開始做了嗎"},{"start":788.771,"end":807.56,"text":"這是其中一部分 就是我們採取的措施很多那另外也在這個地方 藉在這裡那個呼籲就是說希望在那個司法預算方面的那個立法委員能夠大家都希望有更多的錢來做更多的事只要你們提出來的合理 國民黨是一定支持的好嗎 但是針對本席剛才所講的"},{"start":808.6,"end":823.586,"text":"不要把現階段的問題挪後了然後就當成這個部分績效是很好的可是我們可以在別的部分看到延遲處理的結果是導致更大的社會成本請記得本席的這句話"},{"start":824.466,"end":849.323,"text":"那本席今天關心的都是長期以來在關心的那請給本席一個具體的從本席開始關心到現在你們所做的措施然後從現在開始那到未來你們定的期程點本席要很清楚的看到時間跟做法可以嗎我們會提出報告那我們的困境也會在上面反映希望那個委員能夠支持好的那謝謝複民署長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時23分）謝謝主席翁召委。先請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：有請王副祕。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：好，早安。早上聽到很多同仁在這邊的討論，我覺得也滿正面，滿有效度的。也謝謝司法院，對於剛才翁委員講的那個報告，我也是非常期待你們的一些看法，所以你們應該在不同的面向提出一些看法，讓大家比較能夠正面來思考，更縝密地從司法的觀點上來看法官不語跟法官要語這件事情。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","本席今天針對幾個長期有在關注的事情來跟你們討論。本席長期關注有關於少年司法的問題，今天要談的是，依本席的觀察，少年司法跟行政輔導體系之間有一些割裂的現象。少年偏差的行為，常常是家庭、學校、社會等很多重壓力交織，而產生了某一些結果，但是司法跟行政體系如果銜接沒有那麼有效度的話，再多的制度也會變成一種空談。所以依據少年事件處理法第三條的規定，符合一定偏差行為的少年，由少年法院來處理，法院可以依同法的第二十五條來請求警政、教育、醫療等系統的協助，或者依照第四十二條，開整合協調的會議。但實際運作的範圍目前多局限在觸法或曝險少年，對於偏差行為還沒有觸法的高風險的少年，整個介入的能量，依本席的觀察，有點不足。根據現行少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法第二條的規定，少年的偏差行為包含了逃家、離家、幫派結交、深夜外出、暴力行為等等十多種情形。這些行為如果早期能夠早一點介入，有效引導，可能會讓未來走向形式化的處遇的情形變少。本席發現，實務上這些少年往往處在管轄模糊帶，有些教育機構認為少輔會會處理；少輔會又會認為不符開案條件；社政機關又會以保護個案為由不介入，大家都不介入，結果最後最關鍵的時機就因此而延誤了。所以我們希望能夠正視這個制度性的落差，司法院有權來召開跨機關的協調會議，根據現行的法制，行政院跟司法院有定期召開相關的會議嗎？有嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有。"],["林委員倩綺：好。但是相關的規定是，法律上只說「得召開」，沒有說「應召開」，也沒有相關的單位來負責追蹤。所以本席要問幾個問題：第一個是，司法院跟行政院過去幾年總共召開多少跨院際的少年事件政策性協商平台會議？頻率上有多少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就這一點，司法院和行政院的政策平台會議是一年兩次，都有固定在進行。"],["林委員倩綺：一年兩次嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：是不是把過去五年會議裡面的追蹤報告提供給本席？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：好。","第二個部分是，目前少年法院跟地方少輔會的協作，有沒有明確的通報機制？那麼少年法院不付審理或轉向處分的時候，少輔會是不是及時接手，確保不中斷的輔導鏈？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分容我請廳長來說明。"],["林委員倩綺：好。廳長來簡短地、精準地回應，好嗎？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：謝謝委員。這一部分原則上都有做連結的會議，不付審理的或交嚴管或告誡的案子也會轉介過去。"],["林委員倩綺：聽起來你們是有嘛，要不然就把相關的比較細節性的相關資料提供給本席。本席比較強調的是你們的頻率還有結果是什麼，那是不是把相關資料提供給本席？因為您說有嘛，好不好？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：好。那第三個部分是，司法院是不是要研擬一個修法的方向，來將跨院際協商的平台制度化、常態化，並設置專職的單位跟跨機關資源整合的平台，來做政策追蹤？是不是可以研議然後實行呢？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：是。剛剛委員的垂詢，其中有一個部分比較難克服，因為在CRC（兒權公約）落實為國內法化以後，我國少年司法必須是最小化來約束非行少年、觸法少年或偏差行為少年，所以才會……"],["林委員倩綺：但是你們有沒有去觀察，自從這樣子之後，少事的處理是不是有效度，還是現在變成三不管地帶？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：原則上，在108年修法以後，把少事法中有關剛剛委員說曝險、偏差等部分都移到少輔會，少輔會……"],["林委員倩綺：你們有沒有追蹤這樣子對於後來的犯罪處遇及到最後犯罪化的路徑有何影響？在這段過程裡面，問題可能比較沒有看得到，可是問題在後面發生了，你們的看法呢？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：少輔會這一端，各縣市各少年法庭……"],["林委員倩綺：這個問題本席在先前問過很多次，就是少輔會各縣市政府都有，但是本席要提的就是，那你們真正了解少輔會在執行的狀況嗎？還有少輔會的困難，你們知不知道？本席很快地講，本席是很有階段性地來追蹤這件事情。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：了解，了解。"],["林委員倩綺：這整個是社會結構性的問題，如果這個部分現在把它推往後面，也就是犯罪化的部分會越來越多，那我們看到的少輔會，其實他們很多時候是叫不動人的，所以教育、社政、司法就變成各自為政。很重要的一個狀況是，本席在先前其實有提到，中央是不是應該設立一個專職的少輔會的平台來研議？不僅要有固定召開的機制，還要有專責單位的追蹤跟成效的評估，至少這個部分，你們可以給本席一個專業的報告吧？本席已經提過很多次，上一次是上次的質詢，我已經提過這個概念了，那你們對於這個部分的研議，你知道本席講的問題嗎？就是說，當你覺得少輔會現在以最小程度去影響的話，那是不是把問題往後推了？我不知道你們有沒有追蹤這個部分。還有少輔會實際執行的狀況，他們叫得動其他相關單位嗎？如果中央沒有相關的錢跟相關的人，而地方在施政的前後順序上，可能很多時候就會被影響，你了解我講的意思嗎？如果不了解，麻煩你們會後再來跟本席確定，好嗎？最重要的是，關於中央少輔會平台的研析報告，希望你們能夠在兩個月之內給本席，好嗎？本席其實之前有講過相關的議題，這個是本席一直在關心的，但是現在只是做階段性的確認你們目前的進度，可以嗎？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","接下來本席要跟您討論的是司法人力的問題。人力不足和負擔太重一直是本席關心的問題，整個司法品質跟人權的課題對基層司法人力過勞有很大的影響。根據你們的統計，從111年度到今天，法院的案量逐漸攀升，這跟本席剛才在講的概念有一點接近，你們現在不是哪一個階段問題沒有發生，後面就不會發生了。所以你們看，全國法院的案量逐年攀升，111年新收的案件大概有四十五萬多件，112年度又增加到了四十八萬多件，然後113年度增加到了五十一萬多件，每一年的成長幅度都超過一成。截至114年度7月底，新收案件跟上年度的同期相比，增幅已經達到了8.1%，這樣的趨勢其實沒有減緩，但是同時平均結案的日數卻拉長！111年度平均結案的時間大概在99天左右，112年度上升到了100天左右，113年就直接上升到106天，沒有結案的案件，也從這個八萬一千多件達到了十萬多件！這個數字後面代表的是法官、書記官、法官助理長期過勞，所以在去年4月社會發生了一件令人痛心的事情，就是士林地院有法官自殺，他傳訊給妻子的內容是說他壓力大，很累。各位，你們覺得這樣子的事情應該發生嗎？這其實不是一個單純的工作分配的問題，司法長期人力負荷、績效評比及心理負擔的問題，在司法改革過程裡面，我相信你們應該有討論。但是法條制度跟資訊化的建設比不上好好來關心承載這一切的人！如果人沒有被當成主體來照顧的話，久了之後也是會失去靈魂的，我不知道您的看法是如何。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員關心垂詢這個問題，事實上法院收案每年都是一直在逐步增加。"],["林委員倩綺：是啊。收案增加，然後結案日也延長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：特別是刑事案件，根據我們的統計數字，從111年到113年，地方法院的刑事案件平均都已經成長到12%到15%之間，高院跟最高法院也都是這樣子的趨向。但是相對地，我們每年人力沒有辦法增加，我們也面臨了總員額法的限制，依照總員額法，司法體系總員額的上限是1萬5,000人，馬上已經要到頂……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們怎麼克服本席剛才講的那個問題呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：所以我們現在也是很積極地去跟相關單位反映我們的問題：第一個，看總員額法能不能突破；第二個，司法院也採取了各種措施，設法去優化程序，讓程序比較精簡。"],["林委員倩綺：本席希望你提供幾個具體的相關資料：第一個部分，你們今年是不是有針對案件暴增跟審理負荷進行全面性的分析？有沒有相關的資料？就算你現在回答，大概時間也不夠了。目前各地方法院平均每個法官跟書記官的案量是多少？","第二個部分是，第一線人員的心理健康跟過勞的防治，目前正式的支持跟申訴的機制是如何？你們如何健全建置健康檢測跟心理輔導的制度？","第三個部分是，目前你們針對案件分流方面，有些什麼改革？像輕微的案件的處理，還有電子調節、AI輔助等等，目前做到哪裡？針對即將達到的進度，落實的情形是如何？你可不可以簡短回應有做或還沒有做的，或者是您要怎麼樣提供給本席相關資料，可不可以簡單回應？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，因為時間的關係，我們可以提出一份報告，有關於第三點案件分流的部分，這個也是我們現在司法行政在倡導的，希望案件來的時候，可以先有一個審查的機制。"],["林委員倩綺：現在有了嗎？你們在倡導，但是開始做了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這只是其中一部分，我們採取的措施很多。另外，也借機會在這裡呼籲，希望在司法預算審查上，立法委員能夠……"],["林委員倩綺：大家都希望有更多的錢來做更多的事，只要你們提出來的合理，國民黨是一定支持的，好嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：但是針對本席剛才所講的，不要把現階段的問題挪後了，然後就當成這個部分的績效是很好的，因為我們可以在別的部分看到，延遲處理的結果是導致更大的社會成本，請記得本席的這句話。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：本席今天關心的都是長期以來在關心的，請給本席一個具體的報告，內容是從本席開始關心到現在你們所做的措施。然後從現在開始，到未來你們訂的期程點，本席要很清楚地看到時間跟做法，可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們會提出報告，我們的困境也會在上面反映，希望委員能夠支持我們改善。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。謝謝副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},{"id":"164626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daa355bec45b4c2ffb34f1f132b5784e0493e73b30866c193642d90c1ed0ab56cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"13:39:26 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主席有請洪聖漢部長請洪部長部長好 議員好我雖然也同樣很關心外送員的權益但是我想今天有非常多的委員都有針對這個來做詢答了所以本席問的另外一個問題恐怕也是攸關我們的產業界跟我們所有的這個 下一頁"},{"start":28.707,"end":52.166,"text":"產業界跟所有的傳產跟製造業所面臨的台灣現在是不是真的成為了血汗之島呢針對9月24號巨大機械被美國的海關際邊境保護局就是CBP針對它台灣製造的自行車跟零件被發布了戰扣令這件事情今天早上我在國防外交委員會我問了林佳龍部長"},{"start":53.487,"end":71.537,"text":"剛剛我在經紀委員會也問了公民新部長那麼我算是集滿第三顆心就是勞動部因為這個事情發生之後呢我想這件事情回歸到最後大家想問的就是這是個案但這個個案接下來會不會面對他成為台灣不論是傳產或者是"},{"start":73.598,"end":98.205,"text":"科技業在面對美國針對我們在勞權的制度上面的問題的時候未來發生同樣的事情的時候他的SOP會是什麼因為今天我問外交部長的時候我也問了經濟部長那麼到底我們在對外溝通的時候主責單位會是誰而像這樣的一個狀況可以看到川普上台之後他們的所謂CBP"},{"start":98.925,"end":107.247,"text":"很powerful他們很多的事情都是先行之後他執行他的所謂從川普總統再到"},{"start":109.606,"end":137.629,"text":"邊境管制又或者是要跟美國做貿易他所給予的這樣的一個制度他會先進行所謂的戰扣令那麼這樣的一個個案發生之後其實傳產或科技業的其他業者恐怕他也正在看對美輸入輸出東西的時候到底該怎麼做那麼剛剛問了經濟部長跟外交部長之後最後還是回到了就是在勞動法規或者是勞動指引的部分"},{"start":138.79,"end":150.642,"text":"勞動部怎麼樣來面對這個問題跟委員說的確關於強迫勞動跟像這一次針對台灣的公司來進行WRO戰扣令的狀況是非常需要謹慎審慎的來面對"},{"start":154.638,"end":175.489,"text":"雖然美方這一次是針對單一的公司可是我們並沒有以個案來視之我們並沒有個案來看待這的確會需要我們包括跟經濟部我們會需要來協助我們的產業做一個更普遍性的檢視所以我們接下來會跟經濟部一起來規劃一個輔導跟的機制也包括相對應的指引"},{"start":177.83,"end":204.646,"text":"因為現在這個勞動人權的問題已經變成是企業經營上的經濟風險所以我們要從風險的角度來協助企業怎麼樣子辨識這個風險辨識風險下才能夠管理這個風險或降低這個風險我們的思考是這樣當然在這個輔導過程裡面我們也會來檢視我們的法規是不是有調整的需要因為確實在後面後面也會有需要面對的法規上面的問題"},{"start":205.586,"end":218.991,"text":"但因為台灣的產業當然各種樣態都有所以尤其是我們中小企業多所以我們可能也會需要一些調適的時間可是這部分的確我們會盡力的積極的來跟經濟部一起來協助我們的廠商"},{"start":219.639,"end":236.249,"text":"好我很開心喔就聽到部長其實應該有個想法跟方向了我會特別來質詢這個部分是過去如果台灣是做代工那麼你做人家的代工的時候主要下單的這樣的一個公司或是跨國企業他會有他了解跟遵循的法規他會自己來查場"},{"start":237.35,"end":242.412,"text":"也就是說你在勞動條件上面或者是在勞權的部分必須要遵守這個所謂下單的公司他們怕他們被制裁或者是被裁罰他會有SOP在這裡可是當我們現在都是幫自己打工幫自己來做品牌的時候就會面對這些標準上面的模糊地帶那麼如果部長跟經濟部這邊有溝通的話那會是一個好的方向因為我相信我們也不希望因為這樣的一個個案接下來包括我們跟美方的談判"},{"start":266.482,"end":289.503,"text":"又或者是像科技業科技業其實他也蠻血汗的啦這個我想大家也騙不了人包括這些工程師等等也都是工時等等會受到質疑所以這個部分我也希望不只是傳產包括科技業是不是勞動部這裡都要一併來做了解跟一併把它納入來做制度上面設定的一個就是產業"},{"start":291.552,"end":318.551,"text":"我覺得我們需要讓我們的產業知道因為國際上面確實越來越重視強迫勞動的問題尤其是針對移工的一些待遇的問題所以我們的產業也必須了解到這件事情他進而才會意識到這真的沒有做好的話他會成為一個風險所以我覺得從風險角度管理然後做出實質的改善我覺得這是最重要的事情那我們要跟產業我們願意幫助產用最大力氣來幫助產業但是的確時間上面我們會需要盡快來"},{"start":319.412,"end":342.154,"text":"好因為主席你站起來我只問最後一個問題那就是因為這又是一樣跨部會的事情有外交部因為然後又有勞動部然後也可能有經濟部那麼這個部分的話會是勞動部主責嗎然後你們在修這個剛剛您所講的這個指引的部分有沒有一個day line要多久或者是說你們面對這樣的一個問題之後你們打算起一個什麼樣的跨部會的協商那都要多少時間"},{"start":343.303,"end":370.967,"text":"這個事情我們會跟經濟部合作因為經濟部那邊會有一個盡職調查的相關相對應的推動那勞動部這邊我們也對於強迫勞動跟包括移工上面的一些管理的機制然後仲介的管理的部分我們也會來協助所以這裡面會有各有各的權責可是我們會用合作的方式來盡快推動好如果可以的話我希望這個有更進一步的訊息的時候能夠跟本席以及我們衛環委員會的衛環委員會的所有的委員來做報告好不好"},{"start":373.286,"end":373.907,"text":"謝謝林楚瑩委員發言請吳思瑤委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1234,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（13時39分）謝謝主席，有請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：我雖然同樣也很關心外送員的權益，但是今天已經有非常多委員就這個議題提出詢答，所以本席要問另外一個問題，恐怕也是攸關我們的傳產業及製造業所面臨的狀況，臺灣現在是不是真的成為了血汗之島呢？關於9月24日巨大機械被美國海關及邊境保護局CBP針對臺灣製造的自行車及零件發布暫扣令的這件事情，今天早上我在國防外交委員會問了林佳龍部長，剛剛我在經濟委員會也問了龔明鑫部長，現在算是集滿第三顆星要詢問勞動部，在這件事情發生之後，我認為大家想問，雖然這是個案，但在這個個案之後，未來美國對於臺灣傳產或科技業在勞權制度上發生同樣事情時的SOP會是什麼？今天我問了外交部長、也問了經濟部長，到底我們在對外溝通時的主責單位會是誰？我們可以看到在川普上台之後，他們的CBP很powerful，無論是執行川普總統的政策、邊境管制、或是與美國貿易所給予的制度，針對許多事情都會先進行所謂的暫扣令。在這樣的一個個案發生之後，其實傳產或科技業的業者恐怕也正在看對美輸出輸入貨物時到底該怎麼做。剛剛問了經濟部長及外交部長，最後還是回到了勞動法規或勞動指引的部分，勞動部要如何面對這個問題？"],["洪部長申翰：向委員說明，關於強迫勞動以及美方這次針對臺灣的公司進行WRO暫扣令的狀況確實是非常需要審慎的面對，雖然美方這次是針對單一的公司，但是我們並沒有以個案視之、我們並沒有以個案看待，包括經濟部在內，我們需要協助我們的產業做一個更普遍性的檢視，所以我們接下來會與經濟部一起規劃輔導的機制，也包括相對應的指引。因為現在勞動人權的問題已經變成企業經營上的經濟風險，所以我們要從風險的角度協助企業如何辨識這個風險，在辨識風險之下才能夠管理這個風險或降低這個風險，我們的思考就是如此。但是在這個輔導過程中，我們也會檢視我們的法規是不是有調整的需要，因為後面確實也需要面對法規上的問題。不過，臺灣的產業有各種的樣態，尤其是我們的中小企業很多，所以我們可能也需要一些調適的時間，針對這個部分，我們會與經濟部一起積極的協助我們的廠商。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我很開心聽到部長已經有想法及方向了。我之所以會特別質詢這個部分，因為臺灣過去做的是代工，主要的下單公司或跨國企業，它會有它了解及遵循的法規，所以它會自己來查廠，也就是說，在勞動條件上或勞權的部分必須遵守下單公司的規定，因為它怕會被制裁或裁罰，所以在這裡會有SOP，但是當我們現在都是幫自己打工、幫自己做品牌的時候就會面對這些標準上的模糊地帶。如果部長與經濟部已經做過溝通的話，那麼就會是一個好的方向，我相信我們也不希望因為這樣的一個個案，影響接下來包括我們與美方的談判。其實科技業是滿血汗的，這個也騙不了人，包括工程師在內的工時等等也都會受到質疑，因此，針對這個部分，不只是傳產，也包括科技業，勞動部是不是也要一併了解及納入訂定制度的產業？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得需要讓我們的產業知道，因為國際上確實越來越重視強迫勞動的問題，尤其是針對移工的一些待遇問題，所以我們的產業也必須了解這件事情，進而才會意識到沒做好就真的會成為一個風險，所以我認為從風險的角度去管理，做出實質的改善，這是最重要的事情。我們願意用最大的力氣來幫助產業，但在時間上需要盡快去做。"],["林委員楚茵：因為主席已經站起來了，所以我只問最後一個問題，同樣是跨部會的事情，包括外交部、勞動部，可能也有經濟部，這個部分會是勞動部主責嗎？關於你剛剛說要修的指引有沒有一個deadline？要多久？或是在面對這樣的問題之後，你們打算起一個什麼樣的跨部會協商，大概需要多少時間？"],["洪部長申翰：針對這件事情，我們會與經濟部合作，因為經濟部那邊會有一個淨值調查的相對應推動，而勞動部這邊會針對強迫勞動、移工管理的機制及仲介管理的部分給予協助，所以在這當中各有各的權責，但是我們會以合作的方式盡快推動。"],["林委員楚茵：好，如果可以的話，我希望有更進一步的訊息時，能夠向本席及我們衛環委員會的所有委員進行報告，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林楚茵委員發言。","請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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主席請您下 洪部長請洪部長部長我們今天討論就是外送平台管理的部分我們先不討論就討論從業人員權益保障相關的法律因為其實平台的管理可能跟勞動部本身比較沒有積極的關係"},{"start":34.642,"end":58.596,"text":"我想要先請教一下部長就是說有委員版本有民進黨團版本部裡面沒有版本我們有在研議然後已經到最後的階段所以你們是贊成的對不對因為外送平台的從業人員可能會越來越多那各國的立法例譬如說"},{"start":61.064,"end":84.158,"text":"說歐盟他是有用一個工作指令那可能有有要求加盟國是需要要立法那西班牙的歧視法等等那我想要請問一下就是就是外國的立法力都有認定或者推定外送員跟平台業者的關係是雇用關係那不一定像"},{"start":88.806,"end":114.203,"text":"像西班牙的歧視法西班牙歧視法是 但是不一定都是我們你個人認為是不是雇傭關係那不是雇傭關係的話是什麼關係跟文說明的確他到底在勞動關係上面是不是雇傭關係這是很多大家在討論的爭點之一"},{"start":115.363,"end":143.64,"text":"到目前為止的確還有各方包括在專業界上看法不一定都一致的地方所以我們自己認為如果今天要有一個法制化的工作的話其實我們可以做的方式可以是希望外送員要有哪些權益的保障我們其實用正面的方式把它給列入然後把它給放出來這個會不會有怪異漏案的問題就是說我大概知道你們的立場你們的立場就是要跳脫契約的定性"},{"start":144.614,"end":168.474,"text":"然後呢 一條一條來列一條一條來列風險還蠻大的但是因為現在因為我們也不會認為他是單純的承攬關係我們也不這樣認為所以這也是為什麼其實在一些國家他會有點認知他是有點像是一個中間類型或者是有點像是一個準了"},{"start":169.695,"end":181.081,"text":"類勞工所以他也是在這裡面其實有一點點模糊地帶在認代這個事情不是定型的契約啦還是用定型契約只是他的勞動關係不是傳統的那樣子的勞動關係那"},{"start":187.208,"end":214.326,"text":"所以也就是說在修法的過程勞動部這邊可能必須要很謹慎啦因為沒有一個有名契約可以來容納這樣子的一個商業勞資類型的契約那要一項一項來標示這個是一件必須要很小心的而且要很縝密對那"},{"start":222.373,"end":243.75,"text":"這也是這個法其實在訂定上面跟傳統過去的勞動法規挑戰比較多的地方是在這個地方對啦可能也就是為什麼那麼多人都主張包括委員包括勞動部都主張必須要訂定專法的一個原因"},{"start":246.656,"end":268.026,"text":"可是現在就是說外國的立法例大概都有要求平台業者攸關外送員的勞權和薪資的演算法必須要公開透明因為外送員高度依賴平台的分派工作獲得報酬"},{"start":271.314,"end":285.993,"text":"外送員對於平台業者演算法是不是公平分派外送員並沒有辦法知道那勞動部可能必須要在修法的同時就必須要先"},{"start":287.307,"end":307.546,"text":"先研究看怎麼要求平台業者演算法管理有一定程度的公開這個要求人家完全公開這個是不可能因為這個裡面涉及到很多商業秘密可是假如完全不公開其實你再怎麼立法都很難"},{"start":309.571,"end":335.983,"text":"落實保障外送員權益外送員最擔心的是當他可能被做了一些不利的處分的時候他很難去詢問到底為什麼或者是怎麼做成這個處分到底這個處分的根源到底是有道理還是沒道理還是被過度的不成比例的的懲罰那這事情是外送員現在最擔心的是這件事情所以這部分也是我們要給他更多的保障的原因對欸"},{"start":343.191,"end":362.046,"text":"就是在等待外送的時間算不算醜啦 算不算委員在講的是說當然就是說他的工作期間所以我認為可能我們會需要去界定一個他的上限期間上限期間是什麼意思"},{"start":364.414,"end":384.091,"text":"跟委員報告那個剩限期限就是指他今天可以開始提供外送服務所以他就按就說我現在是可以開始我就啟動那個機器這時候呢他可能在等然後真正接到單呢我們就認為那叫外送外送服務時間對這兩個是不太一樣對對對我我我現在講的是說你師長再講一下這個"},{"start":391.994,"end":414.159,"text":"外送員如果覺得他現在可以提供勞務譬如說從現在開始對 他按下去這時候就是所謂的上限期間然後上限以後他不見得馬上等到單有時候他會拒單等到他單來了他也同意了 按下去我說我接了這時候他開始要騎車去餐廳的時候這個路上我們認為就是外送服務期間這個才算"},{"start":417.08,"end":434.137,"text":"待命時間不算就是他開始覺得他可以送這個不算如果沒有上限那就跟上限都沒有關那就跟一般狀態一樣對 因為是這樣子就是我覺得勞工的權益"},{"start":435.06,"end":462.306,"text":"然後平台的合理利潤商家的生意怎麼穩定然後消費者怎麼減少支出這個是一個很複雜的關係那要完全讓它四方面都可以平衡這個在立法的過程可能真的有很多東西必須要討論的"},{"start":464.107,"end":487.119,"text":"這真的在立法的技術上面當然是因為它涉及到多方的厲害相關方一個是厲害相關方多第二個涉及到的部會也多所以在立法技術上確實是需要很小心的琢磨這個就是除了立法技術以外呢其實在立法的過程怎麼去橫平"},{"start":488.26,"end":502.703,"text":"各項的價值不只是勞工權益價值可能憑各項價值然後怎麼兼顧各方利益讓大家都可以當然不可能全部滿意可是"},{"start":503.704,"end":521.041,"text":"怎麼讓大家在只要有多方的啦我都覺得立法的結果就是盡可能讓大家雖然不滿意可是都可以接受讓制度可以持久的進行這個才重要好不好謝謝楊要委員謝謝楊要委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1148,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時24分）謝謝主席。主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們今天討論外送平台，管理部分先不討論，就討論從業人員權益保障相關法律啦！因為平台管理可能跟勞動部比較沒有直接關係。","我想先請教部長，有委員版本、有民進黨團版本，部裡則沒有版本，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在研議，已經到最後階段。"],["楊委員曜：所以你們是贊成的，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：外送平台從業人員可能會愈來愈多，至於各國立法例，譬如歐盟有工作指令，可能要求加盟國須要立法，還有西班牙的騎士法等等。我想請問，外國立法例都認定或推定外送員跟平台業者的關係是僱傭關係……"],["洪部長申翰：不一定。"],["楊委員曜：像西班牙騎士法……"],["洪部長申翰：西班牙騎士法是，但是不一定都是。"],["楊委員曜：那你個人認為是不是僱傭關係？如果不是僱傭關係的話，是什麼關係？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，它在勞動關係上到底是不是僱傭關係的確是大家所討論的爭點之一，到目前為止，各方包括專業意見都有看法不一定一致的地方。我們自己認為，如果今天要做法制化的工作，做的方式可以是如果希望外送員要有哪些權益保障，用正面的方式列入、然後放出來。"],["楊委員曜：這樣會不會有掛一漏萬的問題？我大概知道你們的立場就是要跳脫契約的定性，一條一條列。但一條一條列的風險還滿大的啊！"],["洪部長申翰：但是我們也不認為是單純的承攬關係，我們不這樣認為，這也是為什麼有一些國家認知它有點像是中間類型或類勞工，所以他們看待這件事情其實有一點點模糊地帶。"],["楊委員曜：不是定型的契約啦！"],["洪部長申翰：還是用定型契約，只是勞動關係不是傳統的勞動關係。"],["楊委員曜：所以在修法的過程中，勞動部可能必須很謹慎啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：因為沒有一個有名契約可以容納這樣勞資類型的契約，如果要一項一項標示，那是一件必須很小心的事。"],["洪部長申翰：而且要很縝密。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：這其實也是這部法在訂定上相較於過去、傳統勞動法規挑戰比較多的地方。"],["楊委員曜：對啦！可能也就是為什麼那麼多人，包括委員、包括勞動部，都主張必須訂定專法的原因，對不對？","可是外國的立法例大概都要求平台業者攸關外送員的勞權和薪資演算法必須公開、透明，因為外送員高度依賴平台分派工作或報酬，但對於平台演算法是不是公平分派，外送員沒有辦法知道，那麼勞動部可能必須在修法的同時就研究怎麼要求平台業者的演算法管理必須一定程度地公開。要求完全公開不可能，因為裡面涉及很多商業秘密。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員曜：可是假如完全不公開，其實再怎麼立法都很難落實保障外送員權益。"],["洪部長申翰：外送員最擔心的是當他遭到一些不利處分的時候，很難詢問到底為什麼或者怎麼做成這個處分、這個處分的根源到底有道理、沒道理，還是被過度、不成比例地懲罰，外送員現在最擔心的是這件事情，所以這部分也是我們要給他們更多保障的原因。"],["楊委員曜：對。","等待外送的時間算不算酬勞？"],["洪部長申翰：委員在講的是他的工作期間……"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為可能需要界定上線期間。"],["楊委員曜：上線期間是什麼意思？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，上線期間就是指他今天可以開始提供外送服務，這時他就可以點選按鈕、啟動機器，代表現在可以開始，這時可能在等。真正接到單時，我們就認為那叫做外送服務時間，這兩者是不太一樣的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟上線期間是不同的。"],["楊委員曜：對，我現在是講……司長再講一下好了。"],["王司長厚偉：外送員如果覺得他現在可以提供勞務……"],["楊委員曜：譬如說從現在開始。"],["王司長厚偉：對，那他就按下去，這時候就開始所謂的上線期間。上線以後不見得會馬上等到單，有時候也會拒單，等到單來了、他也同意了，按下去代表接單了，這時候開始騎車去餐廳，這段路上我們就認為是外送服務期間。"],["楊委員曜：這個才算？待命時間不算？"],["王司長厚偉：到目前為止。"],["楊委員曜：他覺得他可以開始送的時間點不算？"],["王司長厚偉：如果沒有上線，那就跟一般狀態一樣。"],["楊委員曜：對。","是這樣的，我覺得勞工權益、平台的合理利潤、商家的生意怎麼穩定與消費者怎麼減少支出之間是很複雜的關係，要讓四方面完全可以平衡，在立法過程裡可能真的有很多東西是必須討論的。"],["洪部長申翰：真的，因為在立法技術上涉及多個利害相關方，除了利害相關方多，第二，涉及到的部會也多，所以在立法技術上確實須要很小心地著墨。"],["楊委員曜：除了立法技術以外，其實在立法過程中還要注意怎麼衡平各項價值，不只是勞工權利價值，而是衡平各項價值、兼顧各方利益，讓大家都可以接受。當然不可能全部滿意，可是怎麼樣讓大家接受？只要涉及多方的，我都覺得立法的結果就是要儘可能讓大家雖然不滿意，可是都可以接受，讓制度可以持久地進行，這個才重要，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝楊委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員發言。","請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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不同部位的分工所以打造就分到好幾個部會海南也分到好幾個部會好 那我們來看一下我們關心外送員我們關心他的權益那我們來看一下這個概念我很快的講一下其實外送員他其實很像什麼很像我們有線電視系統頻道上的節目透過有線電視系統然後透過線路的傳輸到我們收視戶身上"},{"start":70.009,"end":91.093,"text":"但是頻道上是在整合全國性的有線電視系統在整合我們餐廳要把他的餐飲送到消費者身上也是透過一個外送平台做這些資訊的分配派遣外送員 然後送到消費者手上部長 有沒有覺得這個跟有線電視系統一個是吃的 一個是看的很像吧好 我們往下看"},{"start":91.653,"end":107.782,"text":"所以我們來看一下糟糕的複雜的來啦單單是餐廳的餐飲要及時的送到消費者身上後面是最重要的是外送員但是你看消費者要付運費消費者跟平台這個運費的收取有消保費"},{"start":108.903,"end":127.945,"text":"餐廳也是有它的拆帳也有它的問題但是餐廳是由誰 經濟部管的然後外送平台基本上好像是速發部但是外送平台還有兩個角色一個是類似貨運公司負責送貨一個是類似資訊公司負責金流跟資訊流這裡面又涉及到個資保護然後交通部他管什麼"},{"start":128.686,"end":148.425,"text":"管這些道路運輸的這些運價然後外送員的是勞工他的勞動權是勞動部請問勞動部這麼複雜的法律關係你有把握現在委員會有六個委員會的版本民進黨又有黨團版本好像都把主管機關設定在勞動部勞動部承受得了嗎"},{"start":151.101,"end":179.513,"text":"確實委員說的沒有錯我們其實能夠主要管的還是在於外送員的勞動權益或勞動關係的權益上面這是我們在權責上面比較能夠cover的主管的部分是的 所以我們看到委員的提案至少民進黨團版我們focus的是什麼外送員的勞動權益所以我們是以外送員權益保障才加上另外一個外送平台的管理是不是這樣所以我想勞動部的權責主要是放在外送員的勞動權益好 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勞動部一個部會管得了嗎"},{"start":312.131,"end":327.805,"text":"需不需要速發部幫忙需要交通部速發部一起對那消費爭議搞不好還有消保會對不對那餐廳的爭議搞不好還有經濟部上發對不對好所以最後的結論有沒有結論有結論結論就是各位好好加油吧謝謝謝謝委員謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1124,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時19分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請勞動部洪部長、交通部陳次長、數發部葉次長以及商發署蘇署長。另外，金管會保險局、個資、消費者保護相關官員都請準備。"],["洪部長申翰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。部長，你知道嗎？現在行政院院會的法案有海纜七法，對不對？你聽過嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也知道去年行政院有打詐四法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在還有國安十法。為什麼一件事情要分那麼多法？什麼原因？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這裡面可能有不同職掌分工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不同部會分工，打詐就分成好幾個部會，海纜也分為好多部會。","我們來看一下，我們關心外送員的權益，這個概念我很快地講一下。外送員其實很像有線電視系統，頻道上的節目透過有線電視系統、透過線路傳輸到收視戶，但頻道商由誰整合？是全國性的有線電視系統在整合。餐廳要把餐飲送到消費者身上，也是透過外送平台做資訊的分配、派遣外送員，然後送到消費者手上。部長，有沒有覺得這跟有線電視系統之間，雖然一個是吃的，一個是看的，但很像吧？","所以我們來看一下，糟糕了，複雜的來啦！單單是餐廳餐飲要及時送到消費者身上，背後最重要的是外送員，但是消費者要付運費，而消費者和平台運費的收取關係有消保會主管。餐廳拆帳也有問題，但餐廳歸誰管？是經濟部管的。外送平台基本上好像是數發部主管，但是外送平台有兩個角色，一個類似貨運公司，負責送貨；一個類似資訊公司，負責金流跟資訊流，裡面又涉及個資保護。交通部管什麼？管道路運輸的運價。然後，外送員屬於勞工，勞動權益是勞動部業務。請問勞動部，這麼複雜的法律關係，你有把握處理嗎？現在委員會有6個版本，民進黨也有其黨團版本，好像都把主管機關設定在勞動部，勞動部承受得了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，委員說的沒有錯，我們能夠管的主要還是在於外送員的勞動權益或勞動關係權益上，這是我們在權責上比較能cover跟主管的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，委員提案與民進黨團版本focus的是什麼？外送員的勞動權益，也就是以外送員權益保障為主，加上另外一個：外送平台的管理，是不是這樣？我想勞動部的權責主要是放在外送員的勞動權益。","外送員的勞動權益跟勞動條件應該怎麼樣？中央政府、勞動部希望制訂定型化契約，全國一體適用，但是在實質上，外送員可不可能從臺北跑到屏東送餐？很難嘛！一定是在各該地方、縣市政府轄內，類似貨運公司在當地送餐，所以根據他使用的區域道路，其實所在範圍還是屬於地方主管機關。勞動部是否已先開始做心理準備，未來訂定指引之後，可能需要跟各地方政府的勞動機關還有路政機關協調？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這個法訂定以後，其實很多執法權責會需要地方政府一起好好執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你說，我們民進黨黨團版第二十二條提到平台業者很可能把這些業務委託給地方汽車貨運業者負責面對地方道路主管機關，所以我們來看看各方權益保障跟平台管理。最重要的其實是明確各部會的分工、跨部會合作，才能保障各方權益。譬如外送員要有離線權，也要有基本報酬，勞動部訂定了定型化契約，那麼平台跟消費者、餐廳、外送員的契約爭議怎麼處理？還有，外送員也需要職災保險，這兩個都還是勞動部的權責，但是平台需要保存這些紀錄，又涉及個資保護。你看，你後面站的人愈來愈多，因為這些都跟你後面的各部會有關，是不是這樣？後面的官員，你們都同意吧？同意的點個頭，都同意嘛！你看，問題這麼大。","結論來了，目前若要保障外送員、消費者及合作商家三方的權益，顧客要求的是合理運費，商店要求平台不能過分抽成，外送員需要有基本報酬、停權跟終止契約條件要透明、要有申訴跟救濟機制、要有職災保險跟其他商業保險的補助。問題來了！關於平台這些事情，勞動部一個部會管得了嗎？需不需要數發部幫忙？"],["洪部長申翰：需要交通部、數發部一起。"],["鍾委員佳濱：由於涉及消費爭議，搞不好還需要消保會。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：餐廳爭議搞不好還涉及經濟部商發署，對不對？好。所以最後結論，有沒有結論？有結論，就是各位好好加油吧！謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員發言。","請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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Scale这些都是这些设备的开发者那其实台湾在合工这一块就是说如果我们要做要做这一个投入他可能要做更多的一些准备那不过台电公司作为应用技术应用者其实我们在follow这些应用的发展方向是"},{"start":256.974,"end":284.822,"text":"另外最後一個問題想提醒一下這個部長就是產業發展不均衡股市上三萬點基本上是AI跟半導體先撐起來但是傳統產業比它的股價是比起過去20年最低的時候所以發生兩極化AI半導體相關產業就是一路上漲但是傳統的製造業金屬 鉤金 鋼鐵石化等等苦不堪言我們必須針對傳統製造業你要轉型有個最新計畫"},{"start":286.311,"end":303.437,"text":"否則一個產業兩個世界一個世界兩種產業完全不同的面貌你要看到比較需要幫忙的那一面是 我們一定 你要具體提出振興方案所以我們為什麼要下鄉"},{"start":305.377,"end":328.65,"text":"貼近這些產業 要知道他們可能受到 加強不夠要有一個完整的戰略的方案 怎麼樣在兩三年或者短中長期計畫短期一年 中期三年 長期五年怎麼樣針對個別產業 標實化 後建 鋼鐵怎麼樣讓他們升級 怎麼樣提升他們AI種種讓他們的競爭力能夠維持我們短期競爭就是保住定端跟金流 不要斷"},{"start":329.975,"end":346.338,"text":"人才跟技术的升级转型这个就是我们加码的地方一个是短期间至少要这样但是你长期间你如果不转型的话不升级的话可能还是会遭受到很大的挑战所以还是有这样的步骤在进行中"},{"start":347.317,"end":370.742,"text":"還有很多的問題 因為實際上的關係另外關於新達海基的轉型 部裡面要去關心因為今天中剛沒有來 溫馨也在新達海基過去在海基 在我的選區已經虧損六十億那你現在到底轉型 轉型計畫哪裡 方向到底具體作為是哪裡並沒有提出來的 都很抽象你不能荒廢 閒置在那邊 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我來問的這一題我剛剛在外交委員會其實我也問過了因為今天外委會剛好安排的是有關於關稅進度的一個報告那麼我們知道其實川普上台之後他的CBP也就是他的所謂的這個管制局 關稅級邊境的保護局可以說是這個power非常大那麼過去當然台灣在漁工的部分也有被美國"},{"start":48.972,"end":58.599,"text":"來發所謂的暫時的扣押令但是9月24號這個是製造業的首例那麼如果我們去爬書像是新聞報導會發現他們是被檢舉而且是有少數的媒體在報導之後現在"},{"start":64.464,"end":69.467,"text":"有關於捷安特也就是巨大機械他們被視為是在強迫勞動的部分被美國的海關際邊境保護局扣押了台灣製造的自行車跟零組件的配件剛剛我在外委會詢問的時候我知道巨大現在在9月30號他發出了這個"},{"start":86.276,"end":115.456,"text":"請求書給我們政府但是他是發給外交部經濟部又加勞動部首先我要第一個問的是現在跟美國做組織溝通的部分是巨大機械自己來處理嗎還是台灣有什麼樣的部會或者是機構可以作為一個協助因為我會問這一題的原因就在於這樣的一個案例會不會影響到接下來我們其他的商業的談判的部分"},{"start":115.996,"end":135.128,"text":"尤其是製造業需要高人力科技業 傳產有沒有可能都因為要符合美國現在所謂他們的標準跟他們的人權的勞工制度的規則而變成是從一個個案變通案部長怎麼看"},{"start":135.948,"end":160.178,"text":"报告委员就是因为这件事情第一时间我们跟巨大有密切的联系那美方也有跟我们讲但是美方很清楚的讲说这个个案跟现在台美之间对等谈判是没有关系的他有清楚的讲那这个就像您刚才提到可能有单位去检举然后他们可能也有书面的了解以后"},{"start":160.816,"end":176.862,"text":"那是暫時性的一些處分那我們了解以後我們就跟美方說那我們怎麼可以來做一些處理那美方的意思是說因為它是一個個案而且是單一的企業跟這個他們美國的邊境"},{"start":177.362,"end":206.642,"text":"保护署他们之间的这个法律上可能是不是有一些误解或沟通可能还是要他们跟这个CPP来做一些说明那我们就会帮这个巨大去介绍就是在美国的可能的律师因为曾经有律师只有少数的律师他们也曾经类似的案件然后获得撤销是少数的那我们推荐给他然后后来巨大他也连接上了"},{"start":207.102,"end":222.172,"text":"那现在他也可能也定了时间那目前的期程跟进度是如何有没有讯息我们只是知道就是说他在一定的特定的时间里面他会跟CPP去做一些说明"},{"start":222.812,"end":244.467,"text":"因為在這個部分的過程當中有一些專家跟學者特別用過去台灣的漁船在這個所謂漁工的對待上面受到美國發布這個所謂戰扣令的制裁的過程當中有特別提到就是他認為你涉嫌所以我就先扣下來扣下來之後你就去打官司或者是證明自己的清白"},{"start":244.887,"end":271.216,"text":"那麼從這個個案當中會讓其他的不論是傳產製造業或者是接下來的科技業會擔憂那麼到底我今天在美國的境外在台灣或其他地方設廠的時候我不是代工而是我自己的做自由品牌的時候那麼會不會有另外一種就是在美國這邊以他的標準但是境外要達到他的標準的時候那麼對於我們的科技"},{"start":272.056,"end":286.586,"text":"又或者是傳產業會不會造成一些所謂的影響因為CPP只要是全世界各國他要出口產品到美國他都要受到他的一個"},{"start":288.854,"end":304.453,"text":"他规定他要满足他的一些规定那这些事件是主要是因为台湾的厂商在雇用这个外籍移工的时候是类似被人家检举就是说是不是涉嫌有强迫劳动的"},{"start":305.094,"end":320.559,"text":"的可能 可怀疑所以现在巨大就可能要去做一些说明就是说当然美方它也有关系几个重要的问题比如说它的宿舍环境或者是说"},{"start":321.219,"end":335.616,"text":"其他的就是说我们在雇佣外籍移工的时候的仲介费到底是谁来支付的问题类似这个那我们会一一如果是属于通案我们会一一去处理那个案的部分我们协助他跟这个CPP来做说明"},{"start":335.916,"end":364.093,"text":"好 那麼從這個案子因為我知道時間到了那麼所以我也提醒經濟部在這個部分就是應該有一個個案發生之後其他相關的產業包括傳產或科技業恐怕他們也會有所擔憂那麼是不是可以給一個指引或者是說給一些訊息上面的聯繫讓這些產業界能夠有相關的指引可行對 所以這個部分我們跟勞動部會密切的溝通那勞動部也會因為這樣也要訂一個指引出來的確是這樣的好 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逆者算明你就要聽喔"},{"start":217.21,"end":246.07,"text":"你經濟沒發泡那麼多 藥劑跟你說我都合法 你就要聽嗎要負責嗎 當然要負責啊藥劑清洗是不是藥劑在洗所以水質 它還在發泡 你聽到沒有它還在發泡 讓清潔藥劑去做所以這個水質一定要定期檢查 就是這樣水質定期檢查合理嘛 都檢出"},{"start":247.642,"end":271.468,"text":"有寫這個成分的時候那麼民意代表鄉親敬意關心有合理沒有啦有合理沒有但是沒有檢查出來 到目前為止在嘉南農田水理會的網站要說明清楚嘛這個任理事的介面"},{"start":274.429,"end":288.914,"text":"畢竟這個到底是天然的都會說那是天然的啦因為你如果是用清潔劑洗的話它的容量會不一樣啦到底天然的要合成的你用殼那個塑膠"},{"start":292.455,"end":319.062,"text":"因為有青蛇夾架出來主撲公他們可能有用到完皮包的鄉民洗個澡啦這個洗個澡就算是供送啦專門在洗替身啦洗鄉民的當有這個消息出來當然我們會更加關心嘛所以本縣提議要求夾架合時合地準備青蛇要說不"},{"start":321.69,"end":344.955,"text":"可以 可以 這個可以 好來要求嚴重 清洗的時候 要淨泡 做得夠的因為 你說用水口的水洗啊沒有煮來水啊 煮那要洗進去啊他水要怎麼清進去 他用水口的水洗洗得乾淨 洗不乾淨 不管可以淨泡嗎 沒錯 有辦法淨泡嗎"},{"start":347.912,"end":366.877,"text":"我們就是他要清洗的時候我們可以讓大家知道有興趣的人可以來參加可以這樣嗎可以要求他給我們賺那麼多錢可以要求他清洗的時候採出特別的硬幣依照工信給我們台南的鄉親說這水這樣他用水口的水洗"},{"start":369.398,"end":396.85,"text":"有的人說用水口的水勢也有問題這點分析可以同意沒有問題那個技術上看他直播但是我們請那個村里的辦公室的同仁一起去你們又找村里辦公室了啦你一定很沒用的啦你一定很關心但是他眼睛金金人最重要的就是你們的病了可以要求嚇死民眾要派代表的話也可以啦"},{"start":397.729,"end":413.695,"text":"嚇死啦業者他是清洗的行為人嘛我們要看技術上可不可行啦第一 這沒什麼新本啦第一 這沒什麼新本啦他如果不可行他可以通知本縣我們可以幫忙"},{"start":415.909,"end":416.57,"text":"我們一定會公開透明 這個是原則啦"},{"start":428.684,"end":449.797,"text":"啊大家在這裡喝水的時候噴口露營是啊 啊公開透明上面要清洗的時候你若能核實核立第一階段要清洗核過核立第二階段要清洗啊我們都裝潔布啊讓大家透明兼施這樣就是讓台南的鄉親把這個紀錄放開啊不然你現在你這樣說人家就不相信你啦我同意啊 就是公開透明做得到的 公開透明 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所以我們預計會給他多少選擇"},{"start":238.732,"end":262.298,"text":"我們希望還是超過10或10個以上部長我接下來問題就很關鍵囉因為會打只有一家對不對再怎麼樣到最後脆平中選就新娘不是我很有可能其他假設你10塊地啊包括現在台北市的這個這兩塊原本的地我們不會對外公佈來我知道你先聽完我再來告訴您說應該經濟部要做的事情是什麼就是說"},{"start":263.519,"end":280.94,"text":"輝達只有一家到之後出來之後新娘不是我剩下9塊地沒有可是既然經濟部會把它列為備選名單提供給輝達那就代表說那9塊地不管是條件地理位置以及人口以及技術以及跟人才的"},{"start":281.4,"end":304.694,"text":"都不錯沒錯這就是重點包括本席所在的林口國際媒體園區那過去因為有被財政部先列管說所謂有可能要做社宅但是現在也已經解編了而且也被經濟部拿出來當成是給揮打選擇的其中之一那本席想要問以及強調的就是那假設揮打選擇了"},{"start":306.872,"end":323.33,"text":"到最後確平眾選不是我們這地但我們這地也確實被經濟部列為是很不錯的地那經濟部是不是有責任跟計畫要來協助招商對我們也會把這個地推介給比如說外國的企業那就要更積極因為 回答"},{"start":325.039,"end":345.873,"text":"選擇一個那能不能我們用這個地因為你已經盤點在這一次你已經盤點出來假設10塊地包括林口包括松南等等的那這些地的條件都很好那應該再去跟其他的國際大廠國際公司來問Google問Intel問其他各行各業有條件資格跟揮打相匹配的"},{"start":346.733,"end":361.402,"text":"我們是不是可以來更積極的做可以這就不是只是地方政府的責任囉是 對不對因為你等於是利用揮打來的這次機會全台灣再盤點一次而且好的地把它盤點出來那我們就可以主動出擊去找其他的"},{"start":362.402,"end":378.812,"text":"國際大廠來問說我們有這些地有沒有意願我們可以做但是我們還是要跟地方政府再討論一次因為他說不定那你之前釋出林口揮達的時候有跟地方政府討論過嗎有有有地方政府說不定他只喜歡回答因為新北市政府也很支持這個案子如果他"},{"start":380.013,"end":395.466,"text":"揮打之外他也可以接受其他的國際大廠那我們當然來努力啊我想應該不會有地方這麼反對說我指一定指名揮打然後其他Intel Google來我反對吧所以部長這就本席今天因為您今天來做這個"},{"start":397.289,"end":425.248,"text":"業務報告那您過去秘書長我們也很多次的一個共識我想對於您的專業我還是一定程度的肯定那我也拜託既然我們已經有列出來了那揮打確定之後其他我們也可以用這樣子的土地再去更積極的招商我想這是經濟部跟地方政府可以充分配合的不分藍綠跟黨派因為只要有國際公司來即便落腳在新北市也是台灣好也是中華民國好對經濟部而言是這樣"},{"start":427.05,"end":428.056,"text":"再拜託部長好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1497,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時43分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請龔明鑫部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。大家都很關心臺美關稅的談判嘛！很多委員都有詢問過，我延續昨天的總質詢再請教一下，因為10月底有可能舉辦川習會，川普已經說臺灣議題一定會被討論。過去您擔任秘書長也好，或是現在擔任部長也好，其實關稅的部分都有共同參與過。我想請教，有沒有確定或了解在這個過程裡面，臺美關稅的議題有可能也會被納入其中討論？有沒有掌握？"],["龔部長明鑫：據我自己參與的部分，因為我沒有全面參與，但是臺美之間的談判應該和中國的議題沒有關係。"],["洪委員孟楷：和美中談判或美中的議題沒有直接關係？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，沒有關係。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以川普所說的臺灣議題，就我們的理解，或是對我們的談判團隊來說……"],["龔部長明鑫：這我們就不了解了，事實上和我們主談的是USTR及商務部的Lutnick，但是和美國主談的好像是他們的財政部長，所以好像也不太一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不一樣啦！但是現在我們想問的是，你們是談判的代表，我想對於臺灣2,300萬人來說，都希望我們談判的代表能夠談出一個亮麗的成績嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們絕對不會期待，或是我們絕對不會唱衰，希望談判的結果不好，我們希望你們談判的結果是好的。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在很明確的，川普總統已經提到月底見面的時候會拿臺灣議題來談，臺灣議題到底包括政治議題、主權議題，還是包括經濟議題？有沒有掌握？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我就不知道了。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有辦法掌握？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。因為至少……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會擔心包括經濟議題？甚至如果美中談完之後有對臺灣不利的條款，譬如臺灣的產品排除，或是技術、關稅的部分，我們有沒有備案或是因應措施？"],["龔部長明鑫：看起來就是沒有關係啊！因為我們主要談的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：是你的期待？還是你了解沒有關係？"],["龔部長明鑫：至少我知道的部分是沒有什麼關係。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在想問的是，像昨天本席總質詢的時候，你也在現場嘛！所以你也有聽到我請教院長，到底有沒有掌握所謂的臺灣議題包含哪些？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：外交部第一時間也沒有辦法告訴我們正確答案嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為那天好像是一早的新聞有報導嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，昨天嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，一早。說實在話，我也是第一次看到這樣的新聞，就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以在過去的談判過程裡面，談的都是美臺之間的議題，沒有涉及其他？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們持續密切掌握。但是本席還是提醒一下，因為畢竟瞬息萬變，經濟部要做好充分的應變措施。"],["龔部長明鑫：是的，一定。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，另外一個部分也要請教，之前輝達有說要來臺灣投資，昨天我也說了，我們看到媒體報導至少會提供兩塊地，包括林口國際媒體園區以及松南營區這兩塊地給輝達選擇。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，這是國產署的部分，他們好像已經有對外說明。的確，這也是我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。因為我早上又看到您回答，經濟部預期、打算提供10塊地以上，就是雙位數，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，因為我們是這樣想的，輝達當然有他們的條件，但是對我們來說，我們給他們越多的選擇，他們越有可能留在臺灣嘛！所以我們就往這個方向進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。所以我們預計會給他們多少選擇？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們希望提供10個或10個以上。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，我接下來的問題就很關鍵囉！因為輝達只是一家公司，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：再怎麼樣，到最後就雀屏中選，結果新娘不是我，有可能是其他地方。假設你們提供10塊地，包括臺北市原本提出的這兩塊地……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們不會對外公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，請你先聽完，我再告訴您經濟部應該要做的事情是什麼。"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：輝達只有一家，到最後出來新娘不是我，剩下的9塊地沒有中選，可是既然經濟部把它列為備選名單提供給輝達，就代表那9塊地不管是條件、地理位置，以及人口、技術、人才的……"],["龔部長明鑫：都不錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，這就是重點，包括本席所在的林口國際媒體園區，過去有被財政部先列管可能要做社宅，但是現在已經解編了，而且也是被經濟部拿出來給輝達選擇的其中之一。本席想要問以及想要強調的是，假設輝達選擇了，最後雀屏中選的不是我們這一塊地，但是這塊地也確實被經濟部列為很不錯的地，經濟部是不是有責任提計畫協助招商？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們也會把這塊地推介出去，例如推介給外國的企業，不管……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們就要更積極，因為輝達只選擇一個。這次你們已經盤點出來，假設是10塊地包括林口、松南等等，這些地的條件都很好，應該再向其他國際大廠、國際公司……"],["龔部長明鑫：會的，我們也會提供給他們。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以問問Google、Intel或者問其他各行各業，有條件、資格和輝達相匹配的，我們是不是可以更積極去做？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這就不只是地方政府的責任囉！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你們等於是利用輝達這次來臺投資的機會，全臺灣再盤點一次。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：把好的地盤點出來，我們就可以主動出擊去找其他國際大廠，來問說：我們有這些地，有沒有意願？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們可以主動出擊，但我們還是要和地方政府再討論一次，因為說不定他們只喜歡輝達。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們之前釋出林口給輝達選擇的時候，有和地方政府討論過嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：有的，地方政府說不定只喜歡輝達而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，因為新北市政府也很支持這個案子。"],["龔部長明鑫：如果除了輝達之外，他們也可以接受其他國際大廠，我們當然會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想應該不會有地方政府反對，一定指名要輝達，其他，像Intel、Google來投資就反對吧！"],["龔部長明鑫：這部分我們還是要稍微了解、詢問一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，因為您今天來做業務報告嘛！您過去擔任秘書長，我們也有過很多次共識，對於您的專業，我還是給予一定程度的肯定。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也拜託，既然我們已經列出來了，等輝達確定之後，我們也可以用其他的土地再做更積極的招商，我想這是經濟部和地方政府可以充分配合的，不分藍綠和黨派。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為只要有國際公司來投資，即便落腳在新北市，也是對臺灣好、對中華民國好，對吧？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，對經濟部而言是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：再拜託部長，好不好？謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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造成的啊！但他們不斷地推說演算法裡面都有寫，但是因為演算法不透明，無法被驗證，無法被追訴，導致於外送員各式各樣的權益都被框在這個霸權之下，所以他們沒有辦法進行議價，沒有辦法跟雇主說因為演算法的問題，造成其種種勞動權益受損。甚至我也聽到外送員不斷地被片面的調降薪資，甚至是連夾單的費用都不斷地被砍，他們想要申訴也申訴無門，就因為演算法裡面各式各樣的機制，造成他們都無從去跟雇主抗衡。所以我認為這一次的關鍵，接下來既然要修法了，拜託勞動部一定要站在外送員的角度，去瞭解這個演算法到底如何能夠作為，其實他們就是員工，老實說他們就是這個產業裡面勞動的一員，到底要如何讓這個演算法令他們是有辦法被保障的，這個要拜託部長。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["黃委員捷：最後我要強調的是，我一直認為在這個數位產業裡面，這些外送員的權益跟消費者的權益很容易最後都是讓這個平台方一方獨大，導致受損的不只是消費者，還包括外送員。所以我認為接下來既然要制定專法了，我在此唯一一個提醒，就是演算法的透明度接下來一定要非常非常審慎地進行討論。","至於其他的部分，包括剛剛有其他委員提到保險的部分，包括所有的勞動權益以及他們的交通風險，如何讓外送員不會因為為了要瘋狂地跑單、瘋狂地搶單，才可以去拿到跟過去一樣的薪資，導致於他們不斷地增加個人在交通上的風險。事實上，交通部也針對汽車運輸業的管理規則及汽車運輸業的運價準則提出修正草案，我不知道這方面勞動部跟交通部目前討論到的共識是到什麼程度了，是已經收尾了？還是其實都差不多了？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，這部分就由交通部來說明。"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則相關的修法，我們跟相關的工會都有所討論，原則上我們會在11月公告相關的草案。"],["黃委員捷：好，11月公告相關草案，另外是勞動部在三個月內送出外送員的專法。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","現在休息20分鐘，休息。","休息（12時50分）","繼續開會（13時18分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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我們請勞動部洪森漢 洪部長"},{"start":17.293,"end":44.414,"text":"区委好部长好我想今天我们在这边质询主要当然都是为了外送人员的权益的相关问题不管是他们长期笼罩在演算法的黑箱或是契约的弱势跟法治的空白当中已经造成严重的制度性的剥削与工位跟交通安全的风险那部长您有提到说您在这段时间其实已经有跟外送工会跟平台的业者开了十次会议是吗"},{"start":45.854,"end":69.863,"text":"不是十次 幾次啊你有跟平台業者跟外送工會一起開會嗎我以為你現在寫的比較是他們對話平台的會議啦這個對話平台比較不是針對法案那我現在要請教的是您有沒有跟外送工會跟平台業者開會"},{"start":72.058,"end":92.626,"text":"部裡面有 當然那部長有嗎部裡面有對 所以部長沒有 就是部裡有有跟大家有跟大家討論跟對話好 那請問一下部裡因為你沒有參加嘛那部裡有參加的這些長官有沒有跟您說他們邀請了哪些外送工會的這個一起參加"},{"start":95.295,"end":116.263,"text":"我們有召開那個平台會議 那平台會議裡面的工會端我們大概就遵循一些比較重要而且常常對外表達意見的一些外送的工會那一起做平台的交流你所謂的就是比較有常常有表達意見然後有比較重要的一些 可是為什麼本席收到的一些"},{"start":118.264,"end":136.124,"text":"對 為什麼我收到的一些全國的這個一些外送的工會都說他們沒有被邀請到呢所以我才說你們到底是邀請了哪些跟我們報告 全台灣的外送的工會大概有最 掛外送的話 職業工會就有三四十個是 那你們邀請了幾個我們大概有八到七個"},{"start":136.664,"end":157.772,"text":"那這八到七個市大概是哪些工會有外送產業工會也有外送職業工會有台北市有彰化縣有桃園的也有南部的我們區域不是說都集中是那你邀請這些對象是怎麼來的你為什麼邀請這些工會我們長期在做很多的跟工會之間的交流他們常常就是我們交流意見的對象"},{"start":159.065,"end":184.547,"text":"原則上為什麼今天會問部長的這個問題就是有很多的外送的這個工會都跟我們反映他們並沒有收到勞動部的邀請一起來參加這相關的平台會議那當然你說好三四十家然後你要其中七八家這代表性在哪當然是你勞動部說了算可是為什麼很多的外送業者他都感覺到他的工會都感覺不到勞動部對他們的重視"},{"start":185.248,"end":202.538,"text":"所以您在這個部分部長是不是能夠邀請我們部裡的同仁針對我們的外送工會應該是不要分顏色喔就是讓大家都能夠一起來共同的來這個參與這樣子的一個平台你開這個會才有意義嘛是嗎跟委員說明喔"},{"start":203.178,"end":225.73,"text":"外送員的議題跟外送員相關的法制工作是絕對不會分顏色的對 我相信是絕對不會分顏色的但是呢 為什麼很多外送的平台的這些工會都說他們沒有受到邀請所以是不是可以請部長就是在這邊允諾就是說你們會針對我其實會後也可以告訴你是哪些工會是到時候是不是您就可以邀請這些工會一起來參與呢當然"},{"start":227.231,"end":232.933,"text":"當然 另外就是說針對這些會議中他們最在意的報酬離縣權勞保職災請問針對這些問題勞動部有沒有協助他們解決因為目前還沒有專法嗎包括報酬然後離縣權"},{"start":243.683,"end":266.442,"text":"跟停權然後包括職災的問題目前我們都會希望是放在專法裡面所以還沒有解決是因為還沒有專法嗎所以推動專法要加速進行應該是現在最重中之重的事情所以剛本來講說要三個月大家都覺得這個時間太久所以要請這個部長一定要推動因為目前他們的問題沒有辦法解決是因為沒有專法"},{"start":268.343,"end":283.958,"text":"是不是請部長可以允諾我們要加速我們專法的一個推動這樣才能夠真正的照顧這些外送平台的業者我們很願意加速還有就是針對我們的各大平台的運算的方式不曉得勞動部是不是有掌握他們的運算方式"},{"start":284.358,"end":304.595,"text":"有 他有幾種類別好 那針對這幾種類別的話相信你們如果有講話的話應該更可以知道外送員其實權益被大量的剝削所以針對這部分我覺得你們應該有更強硬的一個公權力的一個展現來去處理相關的問題他的權益上的確在保障還需要更多的保障好 那請部長這個部分請你多用心 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請紅部長"},{"start":31.066,"end":31.087,"text":"請紅部長"},{"start":37.116,"end":66.09,"text":"張委員好外送平台是在2012年登錄台灣的然後這段時間我們已經很多的這個外送平台跟專家寫者還有外送員都在呼籲說趕快制定了這個專法之前還爆發了兩大外送平台合併的這個危機還好還好在大家強力的監督跟執行之下公平會"},{"start":67.743,"end":92.922,"text":"從善如流以獨立機關該有的把關跟審議沒有讓兩大平台合併通過今天要非常謝謝主席開始排審這個專法可是呢我們不禁的要問民進黨已經執政9年多之前"},{"start":94.677,"end":117.304,"text":"還是一黨獨大立法院是絕對的多數在那八年立法院的民進黨黨團或者行政院都沒有提出相關的這個版本包括洪部長你2020年就開始當部長嘛對不對是對啊你那時候是大家認為說你是號稱關心社會跟勞動權益的"},{"start":119.719,"end":148.115,"text":"當2020當立委當這個2020當立委當立委嘛對啊然後後來當了這個部長你當立委任內民進黨一黨獨大沒有看到民進黨的版本你又當了一年多了我現在還是沒有看到行政院的版本好我們來看一下這13年來民間跟民眾黨或者是在野人士做的怎麼樣的一個努力"},{"start":149.485,"end":174.76,"text":"柯文哲在當台北市長的時候他在2019年跟台北市的勞動局局長賴香寧推動之下制定了全台灣第一個台北市外送平台業者的管理自治條例這是我們的第一個自治條例我們那時候也呼籲要馬上制定專法呼籲中央可是"},{"start":176.587,"end":197.226,"text":"民進黨一直都沒有動我們來做一個總結109年10月23號針對外送員在立法院提出第一次修正案的要修職業安全衛生法部分條文修正案的是民眾黨團最早提出外送專法的草案是誰"},{"start":198.649,"end":220.843,"text":"第十屆立法院112年4月28號是民眾黨所提出來的專法到了本屆台灣民眾黨再次提出修正的專法我在經濟委員會有好幾次提出執行一外面要求要提專法第二個要避免"},{"start":222.247,"end":250.059,"text":"我們的消費者跟外送員的這個潛力受到損害包括去年的9月10號我還主持了外送平台的併過案的公聽會我們要求不要市場壟斷而且要趕快訂專法保障我們的這個消費者今天我特別要提醒的也是我擔心的民進黨在昨天開始開的記者會展開了零案攻擊我要問過去10年"},{"start":252.113,"end":281.171,"text":"民進黨或者民進黨黨團有提出幾個外送平台跟外送員潛力的專法嗎零昨天聽說他們記者會提出一個法案來主席我們今天我看了一下我們今天要審了六個案子一個唯一黨團提出來是台灣民眾黨另外有五個是國民黨的版本我們今天應該沒有要審民進黨的版本"},{"start":283.12,"end":306.353,"text":"好 我最擔心的是昨天傍晚的時候我們的行政院長卓榮泰在答詢的時候說為了保障外送員的權益他希望明年一月份的時候跟立法院討論整套的這個質疑還在拖嗎 要以拖待變嗎台灣民眾黨已經把它當為優先的這個法案我們力爭"},{"start":309.055,"end":337.166,"text":"這個會期一定要完成三讀為了保障我們的消費者保障外送員的這個潛力火車已經開了今天非常謝謝主席排審了如果民進黨跟總統派還要在夜台那邊喊火車回來要等到明年一月份就把他們留在原地我們繼續往前開盡量盡快完成三讀我們來保障我們消費者潛力跟外送員的潛力"},{"start":339.524,"end":339.917,"text":"部長同意嗎"},{"start":341.912,"end":370.274,"text":"跟委員說明其實我想行政部門的版本我們這幾個月其實很積極的正在研議那我們剛剛其實也跟委員有報告了那當然現在進入到最後的法制作業的階段那當然因為法制作業階段還需要一點點的時間所以如果當然委員的審議如果願意再給我們多一點點的時間的話那我們也願意盡快的趕快來把行政部門的版本來提出"},{"start":370.882,"end":392.437,"text":"現在不是連民進黨都提版本出來了嗎我們是非常理性務實科學如果民進黨的版本裡面有真的是條文還不錯的大家會採納啊可是可以行政要快一點好不好當然盡快我覺得不可能不可能你們自己如果火車開了要保障這個這個消費者要保障這個外送的這個權利人民不會等他們的我們立正盡快在這個會議完成三讀謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1034,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時34分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：外送平台是在2012年登陸臺灣的，這段時間已經有很多外送平台、專家學者及外送員都在呼籲要趕快制定專法，之前還爆發了兩大外送平台合併的危機，還好在大家強力的監督跟執行之下，公平會從善如流，以獨立機關該有的把關跟審議，沒有讓兩大平台的合併通過。今天要非常謝謝主席開始排審這個專法，可是我們不禁要問，民進黨已經執政九年多，之前還是一黨獨大，在立法院是絕對多數，在那八年，立法院的民進黨黨團或者行政院都沒有提出相關的版本，包括洪部長，你2020年就開始當部長嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那時候大家認為你是號稱關心社會跟勞動權益的，可是那4年……"],["洪部長申翰：2020年是當立委。"],["張委員啓楷：當什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：2020年是當立委。"],["張委員啓楷：當立委嘛，對啊，然後後來當了部長嘛！你當立委任內是民進黨一黨獨大啊，但沒有看到民進黨的版本，你又當了一年多的部長，我現在還是沒有看到行政院的版本耶！","我們來看一下，這十三年來，民間跟民眾黨或在野人士做了怎麼樣的努力？柯文哲在當臺北市長的時候，他在2019年跟臺北市勞動局局長賴香伶的推動之下，制定了全臺灣第一個臺北市外送平台業者管理自治條例，這是我們的第一個自治條例，我們那時候也呼籲中央要馬上制定專法，可是民進黨一直都沒有動。","我們來做一個總結，109年10月23號針對外送員在立法院提出第一個修正案要修職業安全衛生法部分條文修正案的是民眾黨團，最早提出外送專法草案的是誰？第10屆立法院、112年4月28號是民眾黨所提出來的專法，到了本屆，台灣民眾黨再次提出修正的專法。我在經濟委員會好幾次提出質詢，一方面要求要提專法，第二個要避免我們的消費者跟外送員的權益受到損害，包括去年9月10號我還主持了外送平台併購案的公聽會，我們要求不要市場壟斷，而且要趕快制定專法，以保障我們的消費者。","今天我特別要提醒的，也是我所擔心的，民進黨昨天開始召開的記者會展開了零案攻擊，我要問，在過去十年民進黨或者民進黨黨團有提出幾個外送平台跟外送員權益的專法嗎？零！昨天聽說他們記者會提出一個法案。主席，我看了一下我們今天要審的6個案子，唯一一個由黨團提出來的是台灣民眾黨版，另外5個是國民黨委員的版本，我們今天應該沒有要審民進黨的版本。我最擔心的是昨天傍晚我們的行政院長卓榮泰在答詢的時候說，為了保障外送員的權益，他希望明年1月份跟立法院討論整套指引，還在拖嗎？要以拖待變嗎？台灣民眾黨已經把它當作優先法案，我們力爭這個會期一定要完成三讀，為了保障我們的消費者及保障外送員的權益，火車已經開了，今天非常謝謝主席排審了，如果民進黨跟卓榮泰還要在月臺那邊喊火車回來，要等到明年1月份，就把他們留在原地，我們繼續往前開，儘快完成三讀，我們來保障消費者的權益跟外送員的權益。部長同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，有關行政部門的版本，我們這幾個月其實很積極地正在研議，我們剛剛也跟委員報告了，現在進入到最後的法制作業階段，因為法制作業階段還需要一點點的時間，如果委員的審議願意再給我們多一點時間的話，我們也願意儘快地把行政部門的版本提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：現在不是連民進黨都提版本出來了嗎？我們是非常理性、務實、科學，如果民進黨的版本裡面真的有還不錯的條文，大家會採納啊，所以行政院要快一點，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：儘快，你們自己要快，因為火車要開了，要保障消費者、外送人員的權益，人民不會也不可能等他們的，我們力爭儘快在這個會期完成三讀，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員發言。","請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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有請部長"},{"start":20.411,"end":44.26,"text":"部長好這一次的丹納斯及728的這個特別條例我們看到在經濟部這邊電力系統編列了110億元那其中呢有一個叫做小型防塞的微電網跟移動式電源那我也看到就是我上次總諮詢有說這個部分會"},{"start":46.241,"end":54.922,"text":"提8億元的經費 但是我比較想了解就是目前規劃要在哪些地方做 怎麼做"},{"start":58.286,"end":76.713,"text":"目前大概兩部分那經濟部的是我們會請地方政府來提他認為他最需要的受災的地方那另外是台電公司那麼他也已經優先選定一些地方我們大概兩方面我們能源署這8億跟台電公司會配合一起來做"},{"start":77.133,"end":106.793,"text":"好當然是要跟台電公司配合所以我這邊有一個就是內政部消防署他曾經盤點了13個縣市186處議程災害孤島地區那這其中當然有非常多非常多的一個原鄉那事實上我們也很關心因為這一次有一個令人非常驚訝的就是大家正在關注馬太安溪煙色湖的時候竟然呢"},{"start":107.353,"end":129.688,"text":"在台東海端鄉最裡面的這個力道物路兩個部落他的災況沒有人知道很慢傳出來而且裡面就是因為有廠商剛好有帶衛星電話才好不容易把畫面傳出來"},{"start":131.069,"end":155.662,"text":"那當然這個部分是讓我們覺得非常的驚訝啦所以我們其實非常關心就是這些一成災害孤島的地區我們是不是應該善用這一次的經費好好的去盤點到底我們應該留在不是公所囉因為公所不知道喔現在是要留在各部落我們到底要為他們建置什麼留什麼那不曉得部長你有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":159.944,"end":184.146,"text":"内政部的确是有把台湾的这些可能成为孤岛的部分做了一些盘点那我们跟他们也有去初步询问就是说这些孤岛需要刚刚提到的这些电网设施微电网设施因为还有些通讯设施的部分目前来讲比较优先的大概有50几个地方那我们就会优先来看这50几个地方"},{"start":185.187,"end":212.419,"text":"要設置在哪一個地方比如說學校裡面還是社區中心還是等等一些情況我就是希望能夠好好的比較細微的去做一個精緻的盤點跟設置好不好對 沒有錯那第二個部分我想請教一下因為我們其實這幾年每一次去勘災其實我有一些心得我以高雄的那馬下區跟桃園區為例"},{"start":214.52,"end":242.218,"text":"他們一個是男子仙溪一個是老農溪但是呢這個河川的這個界點讓我很頭痛啊為什麼因為以桃園來講他可能河川署的這個範圍比較長所以呢經常他們要求做戶案的時候比較容易取得經費可是呢我們來去看納瑪夏的時候他那個男子仙溪大部分都是水保署"},{"start":243.118,"end":268.871,"text":"所以呢每一次做出的這種什麼護岸需求好像都找不到錢啊那我其實有去看了一下我們有一個什麼中央管籍跨省市河川之河川界點有這樣的一個會議那我看了一下其實看似好像每隔幾年都有在檢討但是我實際去看沒有做任何的調整是很難嗎"},{"start":270.132,"end":286.448,"text":"還有現在的坑溝喔其實像溪餒現在的溪呢是河餒所以我覺得莫拉克之後其實我們的整個地形地貌河川都產生很大的改變我不太曉得說到底有沒有檢討的平台有沒有檢討的精緻"},{"start":289.591,"end":308.953,"text":"包委員這個確實有些難度因為各單位都有他的本職要去做的工作但是我覺得委員所談的我們可以納入我們去年剛成立的水域流域的一個推動小組但是由行政院副院長承舉的很好有這個平台機制我們可以在那邊來做討論沒有問題"},{"start":310.815,"end":326.623,"text":"我們真的希望討論一下因為我覺得至少他在經費上真的就完全不一樣心有餘力不足那我覺得這個都要全盤的來監討要不然每一個區域都很不公平對不對那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":327.924,"end":337.536,"text":"那第三個我就想要了解一下關於水的問題因為我們經常在處理民眾想要設減水想要設所謂自來水但是這幾年整個風箱都變了啦就是我們原鄉地區開始都在掙扎要自來水"},{"start":346.346,"end":373.139,"text":"這個跟我們過去不喜歡舊木更新現在都掙扎要排隊舊木更新可是政府的經費不知道是越來越多還是越來越少那以這個供水普及率鹽管加減水我知道屏東72跟人家都90幾差很多那沒有關係時間的關係我希望給我一個原因一個書面報告但是我也要問一個我比較關心的就是關於鹽管的部分因為我們全國跑啊你看這個濁西鄉"},{"start":377.819,"end":382.088,"text":"21.56欸那我要講喔我也有很多案子 卓西鄉很多部落都跟我要喔"},{"start":383.206,"end":407.182,"text":"但是我發現很難喔我不知道到底是縣政府的問題還是鄉公所的問題還是到底是中央的問題我不知道喔但是真的很難喔難怪它那麼低我們會來努力啦有些是因為地方他們已經有一個減水的管理委員會那他們可能有一些疑慮那這個我們會再來努力因為本來這就是我們應該來推動的我知道的有時候也不太是這樣啦"},{"start":408.283,"end":437.052,"text":"我覺得其實我們這全國各縣市我們大概都看得出哪裡一樣哪裡不一樣我真的覺得有一些很麻煩的地方人家不需要附上的附件他需要這就很怪那我想這個部分反正就給我原因給我原因好不好就盤這一些很低的像萬榮鄉啊海端鄉都很低好謝謝那再來就是最後一個問題因為我很高興我進來立法院的時候我知道在我們的經濟部"},{"start":438.012,"end":448.42,"text":"有一個技術師那很開心 那個時候他就有提供仁愛鄉做大合當歸那後來呢 霧台鄉呢也爭取到去幫助他們的經測石湖那後來 112年補助兩個 113年補助三個"},{"start":455.425,"end":481.578,"text":"今年度補助四個其實我是要肯定因為我覺得我們原鄉有了這個那個技術師的經費導入真的這一些的產業發展很不一樣但是我想請教一下所有這幾個案子是哪一個單位在做工研院嘛我是要提醒啦其實我是故意問啦為什麼因為"},{"start":483.106,"end":499.231,"text":"不要帶案子去找標的我發現這個效果很差我覺得應該是要來自地方的主動需求去協助理解我的意思嗎因為我都 很多我都知道那我就知道他們的效果不一樣"},{"start":500.855,"end":514.821,"text":"我只是要做這個提醒可以嗎我們做地方創生也是壓抵原鄉他們的在地需求我希望是需求之後工研院來幫忙但是我不太希望是主動已經有一些技術一定是解決在地他們的需求為主好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1455,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時34分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好。第二個部分我想請教一下，因為我們這幾年每一次去勘災，其實我有一些心得，我以高雄的那瑪夏區跟桃園區為例，一個是楠梓仙溪，一個是荖濃溪，但是河川的界點讓我很頭痛啊！為什麼？因為以桃園來講，可能河川署的範圍比較長，所以經常他們要求做護岸的時候比較容易取得經費，可是我們去看那瑪夏的時候，楠梓仙溪大部分都是水保署，所以每一次做出的護岸需求，好像都找不到錢啦！","我其實有去看了一下，我們有中央管及跨省市河川之河川界點的一個會議。我看了一下，其實看似好像每隔幾年都有在檢討，但是我實際去看，沒有做任何的調整。是很難嗎？還有現在的坑溝其實像溪，現在的溪像河，我覺得莫拉克之後，其實我們的整個地形、地貌、河川都產生很大的改變。我不太曉得到底有沒有檢討的平臺，有沒有檢討的機制啊？"],["林署長元鵬：是，報告委員，這個確實有些難度，因為各單位都有它的本職要去做的工作，但是我覺得委員所談的，我們可以納入去年剛成立的水及流域的一個推動小組，那是由行政院副院長層級的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，有這個平臺機制。"],["林署長元鵬：涉及到跨部會的業務，我們可以在那邊來做討論，沒有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們真的希望討論一下，因為我覺得至少它在經費上真的就完全不一樣，心有餘而力不足。"],["林署長元鵬：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我覺得這個都要全盤的來檢討。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會來努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要不然每一個區域都很不公平，對不對？"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不好意思，主席再給我一分鐘。第三個，我就是想要了解一下關於水的問題，因為我們經常在處理民眾想要設簡水、想要設所謂的自來水，但是這幾年整個風向都變了，就是我們原鄉地區開始都在爭著要自來水。這個跟我們過去不喜歡舊墓更新，現在都爭著要排隊舊墓更新，可是政府的經費不知道是越來越多，還是越來越少？以供水普及率，延管加簡水，我知道屏東72，跟人家都九十幾差很多。沒有關係，時間的關係，我希望給我一個原因，一個書面報告，但是我也要問一個我比較關心的，就是關於延管的部分，因為我們全國跑啊！你看卓溪鄉21.56欸！那我要講，我也有很多案子，卓溪鄉很多部落都跟我要，但是我發現很難，我不知道到底是縣政府的問題，還是鄉公所的問題，還是到底是中央的問題？我不知道喔！但是真的很難，難怪它那麼低。"],["林署長元鵬：是，這個我們會來努力，有些是因為地方已經有一個簡水的管理委員會，他們可能有一些疑慮，這個我們會再來努力，因為本來這就是我們應該來推動的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我知道的有時候也不太是這樣啦！"],["林署長元鵬：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我覺得其實全國各縣市，我們大概都看得出哪裡一樣、哪裡不一樣，我真的覺得有一些很麻煩的地方，人家不需要附上的附件它需要，這就很怪。"],["林署長元鵬：好，我們會來放寬規定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想這個部分，反正就給我原因，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就盤這些很低的，像萬榮鄉、海端鄉都很低。好，謝謝。","最後一個問題。我很高興，我進來立法院的時候，我知道經濟部有一個技術司，很開心，那個時候他們就有提供仁愛鄉做大和當歸，後來霧台鄉也爭取到去幫助他們做金釵石斛，112年補助2個，113年補助3個，今年度補助4個，其實我是要肯定啦！因為我覺得原鄉有了技術司的經費導入，真的讓這些產業的發展很不一樣。但是我想請教一下，所有這幾個案子是哪一個單位在做？"],["龔部長明鑫：工研院。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候"},{"start":30.054,"end":51.671,"text":"本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署"},{"start":53.223,"end":69.608,"text":"我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透"},{"start":73.729,"end":81.213,"text":"甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大"},{"start":90.757,"end":99.963,"text":"不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张"},{"start":122.358,"end":143.407,"text":"我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,"},{"start":144.207,"end":154.091,"text":"我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知"},{"start":160.954,"end":190.594,"text":"所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何"},{"start":191.915,"end":206.212,"text":"我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会"},{"start":207.193,"end":231.408,"text":"愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯"},{"start":232.068,"end":252.166,"text":"我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊"},{"start":253.047,"end":270.757,"text":"我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落"},{"start":271.477,"end":273.458,"text":"所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力"},{"start":301.737,"end":329.871,"text":"没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法"},{"start":330.211,"end":348.68,"text":"但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面"},{"start":349.46,"end":370.952,"text":"那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好"},{"start":371.312,"end":391.739,"text":"那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税 透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争"},{"start":393.139,"end":420.715,"text":"這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移"},{"start":421.243,"end":435.86,"text":"但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人"},{"start":436.681,"end":462.754,"text":"那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢"},{"start":463.311,"end":477.946,"text":"我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是"},{"start":478.627,"end":506.446,"text":"我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移"},{"start":508.547,"end":537.243,"text":"那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有"},{"start":537.583,"end":563.3,"text":"我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞"},{"start":564.22,"end":582.112,"text":"最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":585.154,"end":611.127,"text":"那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途"},{"start":612.628,"end":626.728,"text":"主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎"},{"start":628.39,"end":654.324,"text":"他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造"},{"start":655.164,"end":683.669,"text":"幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才 斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵"},{"start":685.575,"end":714.75,"text":"好 所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流"},{"start":715.47,"end":734.017,"text":"不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為"},{"start":735.117,"end":764.65,"text":"钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平"},{"start":765.01,"end":791.138,"text":"我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反"},{"start":791.678,"end":811.274,"text":"你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才"},{"start":820.342,"end":838.412,"text":"但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":60,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時13分）謝謝主席。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：主委好。國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手，手上掌握了兩大關鍵戰略資產：一個是半導體；另外一個則是太空通訊。不過在面對日益升高的國際威脅時，本席認為我們的科技政策似乎還停留在20世紀末的產業思維，也就是1970到1980年代之後的產業思維，對於現在21世紀多元化、國際化的挑戰，對於整個挑戰上的應變、防護、韌性建構，缺乏清晰且具體的部署。","今天就先從半導體開始講起好了。半導體是臺灣的經濟命脈，不管是面對中國的軍事，還是美國關稅，甚或是日本、韓國的商業間諜威脅、灰色地帶滲透，乃至惡意的關鍵人才挖角，都讓本席對於臺灣半導體產業在未來的競爭優勢感到憂心。","國科會主導的晶創臺灣計畫10年3,000億，目標雖宏大，不過在面對21世紀國際化、多元化的威脅時，我比較關心的是防護與韌性，而不是一昧地只講擴張。","晶創計畫宣示要扶植IC設計新創、強化科研基礎。但在面對各種情勢之下，這些投資可能相對會比較脆弱一點。國科會這3,000億預算到底具體規劃了多少比例用在強化供應鏈韌性跟關鍵基礎防護設施？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們並沒有特別去計算比例，但是在硬體的資安上利用科技來增加國家的韌性，這一點我們現在非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業所需要的晶片我們都會支持，所以全部都含在裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：比較尷尬的點在於，有媒體稱臺灣的半導體產業已經從矽盾變成和氏璧，人人皆欲得之。所以面對敵意國家─嚴格講起來，「敵意國家」不是指任何一個國家，而是every country for themselves，每個國家都會為自己的利益做最優先的打算。因此，有可能每一個國家對中華民國都是有敵意的，這點我們必須承認，畢竟產業就是這樣！","面對敵意國家對於我們半導體產業鏈，包括原料、設備設計跟晶圓廠的斷鏈威脅，國科會具體的反制跟備援方案為何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實對於關鍵核心科技，我們都有盤點、都有保護；對於所有國家，凡願意跟臺灣做合理的往來、友好的國家，我們當然都願意合作，因為臺灣不能只看自己國內的市場！我們的半導體需要開拓全球市場，所以不能把自己關在自己的國家裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：請解釋一下何謂合理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：合理當然就是在貿易上條件是合理的，允許我們合理的去做生意。我們的技術……"],["林委員沛祥：所以你認為蕭副總統講的是合理的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員不用擔心我們的技術，我們的技術絕對是跟……從來沒有改變這個態度，我們的研發絕對是在臺灣。"],["林委員沛祥：吳主委，您認為蕭副總統講的ICT產業外移是好事還是壞事？"],["吳主任委員誠文：蕭副總統講的不是外移，我們是要擴散我們的實力。我們當然要做生意，現在的半導體產業因為美國有非常龐大的市場……"],["林委員沛祥：我只是單純從一個科技把關者的角度來看，請問這是好還是壞？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是好的！因為臺灣如果不往外去擴散的話，我們的實力就沒有辦法展現到全世界各個角落。所以我們當然希望能在一個可以合理跟我們做生意，然後又是一個很重要的市場展現實力。"],["林委員沛祥：同樣的，如果當初日本商業間諜買通台積電的工程師來透露技術，你認為這樣也是合理的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這種違法行為當然要制裁啊！"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我剛剛在講的，任何國家都有可能成為敵意國家。就這點來講，我們必須很清楚、很務實地面對這一切！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員沛祥：產業的競爭沒有對錯，只有合法不合法；沒有惡意不惡意，只有威脅、威逼、利誘、拐騙、偷搶，只要合法，所以法是因。我為什麼說國際化？因為International Laws，每個國家都說他自己是合法的！我個人認為美國以反托拉斯法對我們的國際大廠祭出嚴重罰款，這一點都不合理，但是合他們的法！至於合不合中華民國的法律？不合！譬如捷安特因為外勞被美國課以重罰，這也不合理，但合不合美國法？合美國的法。這一點就是我所提到的國際化跟多元化的威脅，尤其在半導體產業上。身為國科會主委的吳主委，您必須就這點再三考慮我們現在做的所有作為到底是保護臺灣的產業，還是實質上在削弱臺灣的產業？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以國科會的業務範圍來說，我們發展科學園區、我們投入資源做科技研發……"],["林委員沛祥：我們回到晶創計畫好了。晶創計畫如何確保今天的研發投資不會在明日的衝突之中，我指的衝突是……因為半導體之間的競爭，嚴格講起來雖沒有實質戰爭，其實卻是一場看不見煙硝的戰爭！因此，透過關稅、透過保護措施、透過各種懲罰措施，這種戰爭叫做看不見的戰爭。這種看不見的戰爭其摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈一樣飛來飛去，烽火連天，可是實質上對於國家的摧毀性並不亞於一場戰爭！所以晶創計畫要如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我剛剛跟委員報告，我們最先進的技術、研發一定是在臺灣，我們並沒有外移，但是我們在生意上一定要拓展臺灣的實力。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我等一下要問到的，我們一直在講我們最先進的技術、我們研發技術都是在臺灣，主委，半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼？人。想請問，這些也是我們敵對勢力、我們敵對的國家、在半導體上面競爭的國家，不管是惡意競爭或是敵對，在這種惡意勢力、灰色地帶滲透、挖角，甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標，想請問國科會作為科技主管機關，針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護，包括防滲透、防挖角、防威脅，有協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：最近政府對這一點已經更進一步強化，國科會現在也跟法務部非常緊密地在合作。"],["林委員沛祥：具體有些什麼措施？"],["吳主任委員誠文：具體上我們有一些機密的措施是不方便透露，但是我們在保護我們敏感科技……"],["林委員沛祥：對國會議員也不能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為已經進到我們國安法的範圍之內，這個是國科會、經濟部和法務部一起在合作的，所以請委員放心，我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力。"],["林委員沛祥：其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊，因為你剛剛說，如果您認同ICT的產業外移，ICT產業鏈，包括設計都要外移是一種國家實力的對外延展的時候……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，不是外移。"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，先讓我講完。那我就很擔心，因為不管是說去伸展國家實力，然後臺灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士、科技人才居然要到美國去當美國公民或拿美國F-1簽證的時候，這樣子我們就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯，我們頂尖的理工博士人才會因為薪資結構的失衡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，並沒有空洞化，臺灣是在增加，沒有空洞化，我們是往外拓展我們的實力啊！"],["林委員沛祥：我這樣講，我在美國待過很久一段時間，如果你能拿到美國簽證、你能在美國落地生根的時候，你就會在美國落地生根，因為臺灣……我剛剛還沒講完一句話……"],["吳主任委員誠文：在美國落地生根又回到臺灣貢獻的也非常多。"],["林委員沛祥：薪資的結構失衡，大量流向業界……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個不是事實，我們在臺灣是增加當中，我們在中科、南科都在持續擴廠，不可能是空洞化。"],["林委員沛祥：你說在擴廠，但是要培養的人才，我們在這一段時間之內大幅度的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在臺灣擴廠也是臺灣自己的人才啊！所以委員不要再……"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我們只是在討論，這個事情如果真的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員講的不是事實，所以我跟委員澄清一下。"],["林委員沛祥：我們現在是討論說，這個未來趨勢是很明顯的，你如果說現在不是事實，但未來是不是趨勢？我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈挪到美國去？有沒有這個可能性？你回答有沒有就好了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的廠商到美國設廠、擴廠……"],["林委員沛祥：設廠到美國的時候，他們的人如果要在美國合法工作是不是要F1簽證？是不是要拿到綠卡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然盡量要聘當地人，我們要聘的是當地的人才啊！"],["林委員沛祥：請問拿到綠卡後，他們會不會回來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：要擴充臺灣的實力，要聘用當地的人才，這個才是正途。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，我們今天不是在討論這個，我們是在討論所謂的人才……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講的就是事實，台積電在美國……"],["林委員沛祥：你講的是事實，但我講的是趨勢，而且不是預設立場，是大家都可以看到的趨勢，現在人才斷層就是國安斷層。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們不是也有外國的廠商到臺灣來設廠嗎？他們到臺灣來，他們也要聘用臺灣的人才……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是我們比較起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們到美國去，也是聘用美國的人才……"],["林委員沛祥：外部的人才跟我們……"],["吳主任委員誠文：互相交流才會進步……"],["林委員沛祥：把我們最優質的人才往美國送，然後進來的外國人才並不是他們最優秀的人才，我覺得這是很危險的事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不同意委員的講法，我們不是把人才往美國送，不是這樣的講法，我們是要擴充我們的實力，我們在美國教會了當地人才幫我們做製造，我們的實力就擴充了，畢竟臺灣的人力有限，我們要在全世界做生意當然要往外擴充，這樣臺灣才會更強大啊！"],["林委員沛祥：我必須在這邊重新再提出一次，主委，我是想就事論事地來討論未來國安人才、人才斷層……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是委員的講法就是我不同意的。"],["林委員沛祥：你如果只是以現在的事實、以現在你所認同的事實，而不去……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展，我鼓勵！"],["林委員沛祥：好，表示蕭副總統講的話你完全認同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同我們要把全世界跟臺灣的連結強化，所以我們當然要把我們的實力往外拓展，讓全世界使用臺灣製造的技術。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在最擔心的是，是不是我們臺灣的人才也會外流呢？會不會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼不會外流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的人才到國外去交流，我們要交流，我們要跟別人學習他的……"],["林委員沛祥：當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候，為什麼不會外流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會外流，我們的人才會往來，國外也有人才會進到臺灣來，這個不叫外流，我們要讓自己更強大，不能夠鎖國。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，你在業界待過吧？你在業界待過就應該知道有一個人講過一句話，人才為什麼留不住？因為錢給得不夠多，心受委屈了。老實說，錢給得夠不夠多是在商業人才裡面最主要的一塊……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們臺灣的經濟實力會一直不斷地進步……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是我們是在跟美國的就業市場評比、我們是在跟日本就業市場評比，當我們的薪資結構沒有人家強的時候、我們的薪水沒有人家高的時候，我們還期待用愛國心一直把臺灣人才留住，這對業界是不公平的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們如果廠商不往外擴散……"],["林委員沛祥：我剛剛講過，惡意的敵對勢力或者要講敵意的勢力，因為這是一個看不見煙硝的戰爭，所有國家針對半導體優勢的消長都有可能造成臺灣的威脅，從這一點來講的時候，我們就必須很現實地看到這些。我們現在在講人才會不會流失，你一直篤定地說不會，因為現在事實就不會。但現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始……"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，我的策略跟你完全相反，你講的目的我是同意的，臺灣要更強，要更強的話，我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力，這樣臺灣才會越來越富有，經濟實力才會越來越好，我們的技術、研發的資金會更多，臺灣才會更強。"],["林委員沛祥：我比較擔心人才的培養，而不是單單純純只是擔心產業的流失。你剛剛講過，臺灣最核心的是人，即我們的優質人才，但是當我們的優質人才一批又一批……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的優質人才一樣是留在臺灣的。"],["林委員沛祥：因為高薪而去美國的時候，我就擔心這樣的存在，而這是趨勢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沛祥委員，主委請回座。如果沛祥委員質詢而主委沒有回答完整的部分，請他會後再送資料給你。","接下來請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da396dbed66a533f96e072f7c27276b8ae2d78011594ec57575b55e0d0608bdf185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:28:26 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龚部长"},{"start":10.218,"end":37.499,"text":"好部長好請教一下這大家都非常關心的就談美關稅總統說呢有好消息那總統比較確定的是說這次的談判沒有涉及匯率那當然在媒體呢就是大家就傳言那起碼有兩項一個是全面開放美豬或者對於美國車的零關稅那今天早上我看到院長有接受採訪"},{"start":38.66,"end":59.7,"text":"他沒有正面去回答這個問題就提到說這個食安啊什麼還是會有保障等等好那我想請教部長就您所了解開放美豬跟開放就是讓美國車零關稅是不是在這一次總統所講的好消息中的其中的兩項"},{"start":61.497,"end":79.624,"text":"包委員因為美豬的部分因為我跟談判團隊討論的比較是製造業經濟部好那我來問你有關於車子的關稅好不好車子的確是有touch到有納入這次的這個談判那我們這一次是針對美規車的零關稅嗎"},{"start":83.627,"end":107.722,"text":"是美製車是美國製造的車子所以美製車的話那就代表你不管是美規 歐規或者是日本車的品牌只要是在美國製造在美國製造就可以零關稅是不是這樣不一定是零關稅因為談判的結果還沒有做最後確定但是有可能零關稅"},{"start":109.845,"end":129.112,"text":"我们希望不要我们希望就是我们的底线是什么我们底线是不要零个关税还是底线就是到最后就是没办法就零关税那我们的这个因为现在也有很多其实这是好几个力量的冲击比如说对消费者来讲零关税蛮好的但是对于这个"},{"start":130.092,"end":146.092,"text":"對於我們的一些勞工來講勞工朋友其實也很擔心所以我們沒有零關稅我們現在是17.5%那我們能夠接受的最多的底線是什麼呢大概就是所以可以確定的就是美製車的關稅會下降"},{"start":150.36,"end":178.438,"text":"會下降方向上方向是如此那而且它不單純只是美規也有歐規因為我知道我們也有一些歐規車在跟我們抗議貿易通關是它的貨品來源是哪裡是如果美國然後它有附加價值一定的比例它才可以有這樣的稅率彼此我們也去也是一樣我們不能用洗產地的方式拿國外的東西賣給美國然後享受這個優惠關稅這個也不行"},{"start":179.779,"end":200.225,"text":"当然 所以这边我们要了解很多消费者是关心另外要请教一下最近川普动作很多他马上就要来亚洲访问其中一部分他在因为他不参加APEC但是他会去韩国"},{"start":201.746,"end":208.511,"text":"而且這次傳出呢美國跟韓國渴望會有這個有關關稅談判新的進展而且說南韓關稅渴望降到15%現在日本也15%如果韓國也降到15%的話那當然"},{"start":221.8,"end":237.607,"text":"對於台灣來講因為他們兩個國家在很多產業跟我們是競爭的好所以如果韓國降成15%的話那麼是不是對台灣來說台灣來說是很大的壓力我們有機會談到15%嗎"},{"start":239.628,"end":255.884,"text":"是 报告委员这个也是我们努力的方向的确就像您讲的我们很多产品是跟韩式有一些竞争关系但是对我们比较辛苦的是因为我们对美国的顺差远高于这两个国家所以我们当然一定会努力希望"},{"start":256.685,"end":285.631,"text":"我們有沒有機會到15%現在韓國如果15%的話對我們壓力太大了對對對我們努力那另外大家很關心的我們20%你們說是暫時性的這一暫時啊也好幾個月都過去了請問這個暫時還要維持多久然後我們可以什麼時候不用疊加現在我們還是20%是疊加結果人家韓國準備要降到15%了如果今年不是今年底是本月底"},{"start":286.731,"end":306.634,"text":"這個月底韓國跟美國真的談出一個關稅降到15%而我們還要疊加所以請問一下所謂我們的暫時性關稅部長能不能給我們一個就是一個期盼可不可以在今年底之前我們至少看到我們不需要疊加"},{"start":308.061,"end":336.301,"text":"这个我们来努力那我的信心虽然没有办法到百分之百但是我蛮有信心可以努力那部长可不可以给我们透露一下我们到底什么时候会台美之间这些关税的这些谈判大概几月份可以明朗因为最后的总结会议还是要双方彼此之间可以达成共识以后或者有时间十月底有没有可能十月底有没有可能因为最近刚好在"},{"start":337.338,"end":358.867,"text":"在APEC世界呢所以就很難了因為他們都在忙都在忙要怎麼跟那個習近平見面怎麼去跟忙跟李在民見面他要去東南亞嘛所以10月底不可能11月底呢我們盡量我們盡量11月最快最快要到11月才有可能明朗好不好我們希望這個暫時不要再繼續拖時間好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時28分）好，謝謝。主席，我請龔部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。請教一下，大家都非常關心的就是臺美關稅，總統說有好消息，總統比較確定的是這次談判沒有涉及匯率，當然在媒體，大家就傳言起碼有兩項，一個是全面開放美豬或者對於美國車的零關稅。今天早上我看到院長有接受採訪，他沒有正面去回答這個問題，只有提到食安還是會有保障等等。我想請教部長，就您所了解，開放美豬跟開放讓美國車零關稅，是不是在這一次總統所講的好消息中的其中兩項？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，關於美豬的部分，我跟談判團隊討論的比較是製造業，經濟部主管的範圍。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我來問你有關於車子的關稅，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：車子的確是有touch到這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：有納入這次的談判。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們這次是針對美規車的零關稅嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是美製車，美國製造的車子。"],["王委員鴻薇：美製車的話就代表不管是美規、歐規或者是日本車的品牌，只要是在美國製造就可以零關稅，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：不一定是零關稅，因為談判的結果還沒有做最後確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是有可能零關稅？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們希望不要啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我們的底線是什麼？我們底線是不要零關稅，還是底線就是到最後沒辦法就零關稅。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們不希望零關稅。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這是好幾個力量的衝擊，對消費者來講零關稅蠻好的，但是對於勞工來講，勞工朋友其實也很擔心。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們沒有零關稅，我們現在是17.5%，那我們能夠接受的最多底線是什麼呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個就不好在這邊……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以可以確定的就是……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會儘量……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以可以確定的就是，美製車的關稅會下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：方向上是。"],["王委員鴻薇：方向是如此，而且不單純只是美規，也有歐規，因為我知道我們也有一些歐規車在跟我們抗議。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為貿易通關是他的貨品來源是哪裡，如果是美國，然後它有附加價值一定的比例，他才可以有這樣的稅率。我們去也是一樣，我們不能用洗產地的方式拿國外的東西賣給美國，然後享受這個優惠關稅，這個也不行。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然，所以我們要了解很多消費者是關心的。另外，要請教一下，最近川普動作很多，他馬上就要來亞洲訪問，其中一部分，因為他不參加APEC，但是他會去韓國，這次傳出美國跟韓國渴望會有關關稅談判的新進展，而且說南韓關稅渴望降到15%，現在日本也15%，如果韓國也降到15%，當然對於臺灣來講，因為他們兩個國家在很多產業跟我們是競爭的，所以如果韓國降成15%的話，那麼是不是對臺灣來說是很大的壓力？我們有機會談到15%嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，報告委員，這個也是我們努力的方向，的確就像您講的，我們很多產品跟日、韓有一些競爭關係，但是對我們比較辛苦的是，因為我們對美國的順差遠高於這兩個國家。我們當然一定會努力，希望達到大家希望……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們有沒有機會到15%？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在韓國如果15%，對我們的壓力太大了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外大家很關心的，我們20%，你們說是暫時性的，這一暫時也好幾個月都過去了，請問這個暫時還要維持多久？然後我們可以什麼時候不用疊加？現在我們20%，還是疊加，結果人家韓國準備要降到15%了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果這個月底韓國跟美國真的談出關稅降到15%，而我們還要疊加，請問我們的暫時性關稅，部長能不能給我們一個期盼，可不可以在今年底之前，至少看到我們不需要疊加？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我們來努力，我的信心雖然沒有辦法到百分之百，但是我蠻有信心可以努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，可不可以跟我們透露一下，臺美之間這些關稅的談判，到底大概幾月份可以明朗化？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為最後的總結會議，還是要雙方彼此間可以達成共識以後或者有時間，因為剛好就像……"],["王委員鴻薇：10月底有沒有可能？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為最近剛好在APEC時間，事實上大家都很忙，我們很忙，他們也很忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以就很難了，因為他們都在忙，都在忙要怎麼跟習近平見面？怎麼去跟李在明見面？他要去東南亞嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以10月底不可能，11月底呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們儘量。"],["王委員鴻薇：11月，最快最快要到11月才有可能明朗。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們儘快。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們希望這個「暫時」不要再繼續拖時間，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daa973114c6bae570b34f1f132b5784e042d78011594ec57579c2ab639a50d16805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:20:38 - 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謝謝請主委謝謝主席 有請吳主委主委 主委我們國科會目前規劃台灣首批的六顆低軌通訊衛星預計2027年發射從美國這邊進行主委 這個有慶幸兩年之間會完成嗎"},{"start":21.941,"end":49.869,"text":"我们第一颗预计2027年第一颗那当然我们现在按照时程在进行当中那我们台湾自制的火箭什么时候可以发射升空我们台湾自制的火箭目前的规划是我们去年宣布就是十年所以在2034那能不能加快因为我们现在都已经在做太空产业尤其在屏东已经做了这个"},{"start":50.649,"end":67.254,"text":"加快它的困難度在於我們國家發射廠的建置的程序我們現在也是按照程序在進行當然如果有機會加快的話我想我們在科技研發的部分再努力可以提前是沒有問題"},{"start":69.214,"end":84.561,"text":"也要特別感謝諸位支持把這個發射場能夠設在屏東那對屏東來講已經跳脫過去的農業線的我們希望能夠發展成一二三級的一個全方位的一個產業報告委員這個酒棚不是這個棚打錯了未來我們在屏東要建立這個研發中心有機會嗎"},{"start":91.465,"end":106.358,"text":"在哪裡屏東建立這個太空的研發中心有機會嗎研發中心我們現在鼓勵各學術界都進來做所以屏東也有不錯的學校包含屏東大學 屏東科技大學我們都歡迎學者來進行我們太空科技的研發"},{"start":107.253,"end":129.66,"text":"那除了這個學術合作之外因為我知道現在目前我們教育部這邊核定了包含陽明交大成大跟台北科技大學跟馮甲大學做這樣的一個太空工程研究所那我們屏東剛剛主委有講我們有屏東大學跟屏東科技大學應該未來就地取材就地來培育我們的這個太空產業是是是我們非常鼓勵"},{"start":130.8,"end":148.165,"text":"在屏東的這些高等學府研究機構都來跟我們太空中心合作我們會協助他們來發展對 主委 另外我們鄉親我們屏東的鄉親比較關心的這個太空產業到底是一個金雞母還是一個只會生 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謝謝謝謝副國委員質詢主委請回座今天登記質詢委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":962,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時26分）謝謝主席。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：徐委員好！"],["徐委員富癸：主委午安！主委，目前國科會規劃的臺灣首批6顆的低軌通訊衛星，預計2027年要發射，從美國這邊來進行嘛！主委，這個有信心2年之內會完成嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們第一顆預計是2027年沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：對，2027年。"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，我們現在正按照時程進行當中。"],["徐委員富癸：好，那我們臺灣自製的火箭什麼時候可以發射升空？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們臺灣自製的火箭目前的規劃，我們去年是宣布10年，所以是2034年。"],["徐委員富癸：2034年？那能不能加快？因為我們現在都已經在做太空產業，尤其屏東已經在做這個……"],["吳主任委員誠文：加快的困難度在於我們國家發射場的建置程序，我們現在也是按照程序在進行。當然，如果有機會加快的話，我想在科技研發的部分，我們再努力提前是沒有問題，希望我們國家……"],["徐委員富癸：也要特別感謝主委的支持，把這個發射場設在屏東，對屏東來講，這已經跳脫過去的農業縣，我們希望能夠發展成一、二、三級的全方位產業。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，九棚不是這個「鵬」。"],["徐委員富癸：哦！打錯了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是中科院，是「棚」。"],["徐委員富癸：對。未來我們有機會在屏東建立研發中心嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在哪裡？"],["徐委員富癸：有機會在屏東建立太空研發中心嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在鼓勵各學術界都進來做，屏東也有不錯的學校，不管是屏東大學或是屏東科技大學，我們都歡迎學者來進行太空科技的研發。"],["徐委員富癸：除了學術合作之外，因為我知道目前教育部核定了，包含：陽明交大、成大、臺北科技大學跟逢甲大學來做太空工程研究所。我們屏東剛才主委也有講，我們有屏東大學跟屏東科技大學，未來應該就地取才，就地來培育我們的太空產業。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們非常鼓勵屏東的這些高等學府、研究機構都來跟我們太空中心合作，我們會協助他們來發展。"],["徐委員富癸：對。主委，另外，我們屏東的鄉親比較關心的是，這個太空產業到底是金雞母？還是只會拉屎、不會生蛋的母雞而已？你覺得這個未來對我們的基礎建設跟產業，你可不可以給我們鄉親一個比較正面的消息？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們覺得臺灣有實力，未來我們在低軌通訊衛星產業鏈裡面，可以變成滿關鍵的角色。現在我們的電子五哥有2家公司也進來積極的跟我們太空中心合作，一個是緯創資通、另外一個就是仁寶電腦，我們臺灣的強項就是資通訊系統的智慧製造，結合未來我們的太空通訊衛星系統，包含衛星本體、酬載、地面站，還有使用者的終端設備等等，將來這個產業鏈形成之後，特別是我們南部的投資就會連接在一起，將來在全世界的供應鏈會占有很重要的角色。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我們期待未來能夠在九棚這邊另外設立一個太空博物館跟教育館，未來學校的校外教學，不是只有來看墾丁國家公園，應該也要做先進的科學教育，你支持這樣的方向嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啊！我們現在有和臨近地區的屏東縣政府、臺東縣政府合作，共同的來發展。剛才委員說的這個，不管是博物館還是教育館，我們都會好好的規劃，我們會跟2個地方政府合作。"],["徐委員富癸：拜託期程要加快，再拜託主委一下，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝富癸委員的質詢。主委請回座。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢。另有謝龍介委員提出書面質詢。","有關今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da1ca978a26086ca63e072f7c27276b8ae2d78011594ec575721e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:23:38 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白埔產業園區你最了解嘛這個跟南產業園區大概五公里的距離那剛剛市政委希望說把它分散當然不會影響到它聚落的行程啦因為不是一南一北距離才五公里你覺得白埔產業園區的條件如何其實所有基地的開發都是涉及到廠商的需求啦那是我們尊重廠商的需求"},{"start":147.478,"end":176.457,"text":"那所有的這些交通動線或者是再生水這些相關的基地的這個條件要能夠配置起來再生水我們努力了很久原來沒有鋼橋再生水廠我努力之下才有再生水廠因為水電沒有問題嘛所以這個都是搭配性的整體配套措施在基地的周邊我們都要備據廠商的需求固然重要但是政策的建議跟引導也非常重要我一直期待說不管是經濟部國花會或者是國科會能夠在政策上給予一些建議"},{"start":178.038,"end":202.569,"text":"你說把六個廠完全集中在這個南芝財源區過來沒有不行但是如果能稍微分散一下而兩奈米的全部集中在南芝在未來這個如果1.4奈米可以集中在這個白埔財源區也可以設第七廠也不一定所以我是建議說今天特別會來跟主委跟副主委拜託就是說一定要在政策上面給一些建議跟引導"},{"start":204.731,"end":215.074,"text":"委员建议我们当然会提供给台积电由他们来评估它的可行性好 谢谢好 谢谢委员谢谢邱志文委员的发言诸葛请回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時23分）謝謝主席。有請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：邱委員好！"],["邱委員志偉：主委，幾次有跟你討論台積電的全球布局，全球布局當然也包括國內布局，國內布局我關心的是楠梓產業園區，楠梓產業園區台積電確定有5個廠，都是2奈米廠，這個你知道嘛！現在規劃的是第6廠，我看到媒體報導，1.4奈米的第6廠會落腳高雄，不曉得你掌握的狀況怎麼樣？因為高雄有幾塊地可以選擇，第一個還是在楠梓產業園區，不知道那塊地夠不夠大？另外一塊就是在岡山跟橋頭交接的白埔產業園區，那邊交通好，生活圈又便利。","就你瞭解的狀況，1.4奈米的第6廠有沒有可能座落在高雄白埔？白埔產業園區的條件你覺得怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，目前我們當然很積極的在跟台積電討論可能的園區位置，但是先進製程要形成聚落，所以目前台積電首選還是希望在楠梓科學園區建置第6廠，現在高雄市政府也正努力的在……"],["邱委員志偉：其實楠梓產業園區跟白埔產業園區距離大概只有5公里。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，但是在成本上，它在基礎設施的建置、供應鏈，還有管線等等，如果是同一個聚落，它才有辦法降低成本。"],["邱委員志偉：我了解，蘇副主委一直點頭，請蘇副主委上來好了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，蘇副主委會講得比我更清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：蘇副主委，白埔產業園區你最瞭解嘛！它跟楠梓產業園區大概只有5公里的距離，高雄市政府也希望把它分散。當然，這不會影響到它聚落的形成，因為它不是一南一北，距離才5公里，你覺得白埔產業園區的條件如何？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：其實所有基地的開發都涉及到廠商的需求，所以我們尊重廠商的需求，所有的交通動線或是再生水這些相關的基地條件都要能夠配置得起來。"],["邱委員志偉：再生水我們努力了很久，原來沒有岡山橋頭再生水廠，是我們努力之下才有再生水廠，所以第一個，水沒有問題嘛！"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：這個都是搭配性的，整體的配套措施，在基地的周邊，我們都要備具才有辦法。"],["邱委員志偉：廠商的需求固然重要，但是政策的建議跟引導也非常重要。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我一直期待不管是經濟部、國發會或者是國科會，能夠在政策上給予一些建議，你說把6個廠完全都集中在楠梓產業園區，這固然沒有不行，但是如果能夠稍微分散一下，2奈米的全部都集中在楠梓；1.4奈米的可以集中在白埔產業園區，也許它還可以設第7廠也不一定，所以我是建議，我今天特別來跟主委和副主委拜託就是說，在政策上你們一定要給予一些建議跟引導。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員的建議我們當然會提供給台積電，由他們來評估可行性。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員的發言。主委請回座。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢，但時間可能要打個折扣，3分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dab3c7e4fbc51300e4e29853ba2d60c06d2d78011594ec575716d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:17:03 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主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的"},{"start":30.968,"end":57.457,"text":"地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法"},{"start":60.259,"end":74.935,"text":"2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億"},{"start":76.107,"end":90.227,"text":"八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下"},{"start":91.383,"end":108.26,"text":"之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会"},{"start":108.74,"end":127.002,"text":"沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障"},{"start":128.183,"end":152.192,"text":"那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題"},{"start":153.112,"end":166.988,"text":"因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長"},{"start":168.229,"end":190.921,"text":"還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走"},{"start":191.721,"end":202.368,"text":"因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題"},{"start":222.101,"end":249.324,"text":"因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右"},{"start":250.044,"end":271.092,"text":"因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論"},{"start":273.053,"end":292.236,"text":"這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案"},{"start":293.137,"end":316.205,"text":"好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法"},{"start":316.305,"end":331.288,"text":"你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近"},{"start":331.408,"end":356.252,"text":"因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金 保險"},{"start":360.453,"end":384.486,"text":"那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金"},{"start":385.266,"end":401.509,"text":"我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用"},{"start":402.571,"end":422.513,"text":"到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝 次長 主席長辛苦謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時17分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請主計長跟次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長和阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長跟次長，本席特別過來，還是一樣，就是我們也要幫地方政府發聲，地方該用的錢，我們大家都希望……其實中央政府和地方政府是一體的，地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上，中央政府預算也是用在人民身上，只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際、更有幫助，而且更直接，這也是過去為什麼一直討論修財劃法的精神，從以前到現在，不管是執政黨的委員，或者是現在在野的委員，其實也都有提案討論，我們現在只是想要來確認一下，我再附和一下剛剛張啓楷委員的講法，2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年，當時中央政府總預算是一兆九千多億，到2024年蔡英文政府執政的最後一年，編列的總預算是兩兆九千多億，八年內中央政府總預算足足多了一兆，這是事實，那當然我們有很多的費用要花費，但更重要的是，我們希望是中央、地方有錢就應該合理分配。","我先確認一下，之前有傳出財政部有邀22個縣市來中央政府討論財劃法院版的部分案，那麼開會的狀況如何？各縣市的反應如何？"],["阮次長清華：是。我們過去針對財劃法有開過4次會，昨天又開了會，昨天開會其實有很大的進展，比如說，有關分配的架構，比如說，確保財政收支差短要優先彌補。另外就是要確保財源保障，對於這些，基本上大家都沒有不同的意見。至於有關財政努力或基本建設的分配指標，對指標的部分，大部分地方政府大概都沒有太大的意見，有意見的是哪一部分？是各指標權重的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：這才是關鍵嘛。"],["阮次長清華：因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額，所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。次長，我確認一下，昨天22縣市都是財政局局長還是相關人員來？"],["阮次長清華：不一定是局長來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。但是都是可以代表並充分表達意見的人？"],["阮次長清華：有充分授權。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有會議紀錄或是相關的會議結論？"],["阮次長清華：會有會議紀錄。"],["洪委員孟楷：會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份？"],["阮次長清華：是，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，您剛剛提到的重點，其實各縣市一定都是本位主義嘛，那我們接下來要怎麼走？之前也提到希望會有相對應的院版財劃法修法版本。"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以時間點呢？會落在什麼時候？"],["阮次長清華：有兩部分，一個就是關於事權分配的問題，也就是涉及到垂直分配那一部分，現在行政院也責成各部會去盤點，就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛，水平分配基本上來講就是……"],["阮次長清華：昨天我們談的是水平分配，我們會參酌溝通的結論，我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案，修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到大院來。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月底以前還是11月？"],["阮次長清華：11月底以前。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月底以前，所以還要再一個半月左右？"],["阮次長清華：希望可以，但是還是要配合行政院的政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水，說今年的預算很難編，明年的預算很難編，我們大家都共同面對，但追根究底，院沒有一個版本出來，財劃法真的很難討論，這也是為什麼我們從去年、從第10屆開始，在講財務收支劃分法要修法的時候，一直等行政院、等財政部提出版本。"],["阮次長清華：是、是，了解、了解。所以我們現在正在草擬相關的修正草案。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我確認一下，至少財政部來講，你說要送到院，院還要送院會，然後之後才送來立法院嘛。那最快財政部什麼時間點可以把它送到行政院院會、報行政院會？"],["阮次長清華：這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示，基本上財政部和行政院的想法是希望讓我們的財劃法分配……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還需要再開會嗎？已經跟地方政府開了4次會，還會再開第5次嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們不放棄繼續溝通，但是原則上是除非必要，要不然就不要開，因為時間滿趕的，所以如果可以的話，我們儘量不要開，因為大家意見都表達很清楚了。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為意見已經收納得差不多了，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：都差不多，而且都該表達的都表達了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以醜媳婦到最後還是要見公婆嘛。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：到底要怎麼樣處理？"],["阮次長清華：到最後，我們總是會按照最公平、最合理的方式，我們會弄出一個修正草案出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我再確認一下，現在我們有看到有黨團打算提出，財劃法修法之後，公式無法動支的345億元要挹注給國民年金保險，那我想請教，院版這一個部分會這樣處理嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是這樣子，因為那一部分只是單純地就現行的財劃法，因為計算公式的問題，所以沒辦法完全分配出去，但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源，將來如果有修法的話，這一部分還是要按照公式分配……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是會回歸地方政府使用嘛？"],["阮次長清華：中央不會動用這一筆資金。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。我要確認這樣子的態度，就是該地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用，只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理分配，來做公平分配，是吧？"],["阮次長清華：對。要有修法的程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會變成挪為他用，到國民年金或造成族群對立的用途等等的，不會？"],["阮次長清華：依我們的想法，因為這本來就是地方的財源，我們按照公式分配下去以後，就統收統支，要用在哪裡他自己做決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，有這樣確認就好。再次感謝，謝謝次長、主計長，辛苦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","我們請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","今日發言登記的委員均已詢答完畢。","有臨時提案1案，因為在場委員不足，我們不處理。","本次會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復者或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，依其所定。","委員陳玉珍、楊瓊瓔、高金素梅、謝衣鳯所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},{"id":"164605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da1f9ca4c5aad48521e072f7c27276b8ae2d78011594ec575716d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:17:18 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部長我們的這個自然水普及率到目前只有72%遠低於全國的平均值那周縣長也上次在這個我們小琉球的時候也感謝李董事長這個小琉球的這個5000噸的"},{"start":192.148,"end":215.247,"text":"配水站做好之後我想小琉球不會有缺水的問題但是我們還是要提醒全線的部分這個普及率能不能再加快速度一下董事長謝謝委員指導那整個屏東縣的供水普及率的部分我們屏東七處這邊還有我們配合水利署會積極來爭取無災水地區的一個改善計畫"},{"start":216.857,"end":237.686,"text":"那會加速一些沿管的工程 那自己整個平溶線裡面的一些強化供水韌性的部分 包括我們管線更新或是說有些水壓比較低的地區我們可能會來 尋覓合適的地點來興建一些配水設施 配水池或是增加一些加壓設備 讓整個"},{"start":238.505,"end":259.534,"text":"屏東區域的供水可以更穩定的對 董事長這個水源的部分要優先先找啦因為你們如果水源沒有先找到這邊要增加普及率也是一個大問題啦是 這我想應該同步要去進行找這個水源的部分對 我們現在屏東縣主要的供水水源是牡丹水庫還有一些林邊湖流水跟一些地下水"},{"start":260.054,"end":277.893,"text":"那如果有地下水可以開發的話如果水質OK的話我們會積取未來也可以請台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台台"},{"start":281.277,"end":304.383,"text":"我想部長最近監察院有特別提到太陽光電他們有一個報告對太陽光電生設的一個過程存在行政程序不透明審查標準不一還有地方勢力介入的一個問題甚至有很多的外資因為這樣的壓力退出了台灣市場部長針對這個部分我們經濟部對未來的能源政策有什麼看法"},{"start":305.063,"end":329.63,"text":"是 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有關就是說太陽光電有些弊案我們目前已經跟廉政署成立一個廉政平台那也邀請法務部跟高檢署一起來參加那至於地方所涉及的各個部門因為它有專業的執掌"},{"start":331.05,"end":352.419,"text":"那所以在面對不同的申請的狀況的時候他會面對不同的這個條件那我們為了協和目前我們是固定對光電比較多的台南嘉義高雄屏東這四個縣市我們是隔週每週就會找兩個縣市來就一定的申請案件來做討論來協助他們加速完成"},{"start":353.083,"end":368.995,"text":"當然部長我們支持這個有不法一定要嚴辦但是針對合法申請的業者也應該要給予保障那尤其有些案子都已經申請很久了這個這個月托未來我們對於我們台灣的能源我們也擔心不夠這個真的是要審慎來面對這樣的一個問題好不好部長謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1324,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時17分）謝謝主席。有請經濟部長、水利署林署長，還有台電曾董事長。"],["主席：部長、署長、曾董事長。"],["龔部長明鑫：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好。部長，我想賴總統前天在一個小水力發電產業發展論壇有提到，2030年中央要投入9,000億元，帶動民間投資4兆元，推動再生能源跟綠色基礎建設。部長知道這個事情嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：我有看到書面。"],["徐委員富癸：我想部長在擔任秘書長任內知道屏東有一個很重要的案子──大潮州人工湖，這個案子去年底被國發會退回經濟部修正，到目前為止一年了好像還沒有送出經濟部，問題出在哪裡？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，這個案件在去年6月送行政院，在年底的時候有請縣政府做相關的環境影響差異分析以後，然後院這邊再來受理這個案件。其實針對這個案件，我們認為是有效益的，所以有請縣政府要共同合作，我們很樂觀其成。"],["徐委員富癸：我想大潮州人工湖是全臺唯一，也是東南亞最大的一個人工補助湖。"],["林署長元鵬：它效果很好。"],["徐委員富癸：對，它具有洪水減災的效果，還可以涵養地下水。"],["林署長元鵬：是。"],["徐委員富癸：最重要也是我們未來水資源很重要的一個供應的系統。","曾董事長，你最近有去看過嘛？"],["曾董事長文生：大潮州人工湖我去過兩次。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有空間可以發展水力發電的案子？"],["曾董事長文生：這個應該是做微水力，就是說基本上它是一個有水量，但是沒有水頭的水力設施，所以我們大概只能做微水力。其實有很多學者專家給我們建議，比方丁澈士董事長，我想委員應該也熟，我們都可以做，我們來做，主要是水權的主管機關跟台電合作會比較方便。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我想這個我們倒是可以多面向來評估，尤其現在水跟電都是我們很重要的資源來源。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["徐委員富癸：評估起來比竹子門的效益還更大。"],["曾董事長文生：應該要這樣講，現在我們有很多有水量流動的地方，如果有一些適當的微水力設施，它確實是有發電的潛力。"],["徐委員富癸：在這邊我還是要特別再拜託部長，這個案子要加快推動，我們從好幾任前的縣長一直講到現在，尤其第一期發揮了很大的效益，我們期待第二期繼續來努力。部長，這個案子能不能加快進行？"],["曾董事長文生：主要是開發這個人工湖要做環評。"],["林署長元鵬：這我們會跟縣政府一起努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好。我想還是要幫屏東鄉親請命一下，部長，我們的自來水普及率到目前只有72%，遠低於全國平均值，周縣長上次在小琉球，也感謝李董事長，小琉球5,000噸的配水站做好之後，我想小琉球不會有缺水的問題，但是我們還是要提醒全縣的普及率能不能再加快速度一下？董事長。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員指導。整個屏東縣供水普及率的部分，我們屏東區處會配合水利署，積極爭取無自來水地區的改善計畫，會加速一些延管工程。至於整個屏東縣一些強化供水韌性的部分，包括管線更新或是有一些水壓比較低的地區，我們可能會尋覓合適地點，興建一些配水設施、配水池，或是增加一些加壓設備，讓整個屏東區域的供水可以更穩定。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，水源的部分要優先找，因為如果水源沒有先找到，想要增加普及率也是一個大問題。"],["李董事長嘉榮：是。"],["徐委員富癸：所以我想應該同步去找水源的部分。"],["李董事長嘉榮：對，現在屏東縣主要供水水源是牡丹水庫，還有一些林邊伏流水跟一些地下水，如果有地下水可以開發，且水質OK的話，我們會積極……"],["徐委員富癸：未來也可以請台糖吳董事長幫忙。"],["李董事長嘉榮：有！台糖的管理處有幾個水井，如果可以的話希望能夠提供給我們，作為民生的一個水源。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，最近監察院有特別提到太陽光電，它們有一個報告，指出太陽光電申設的過程存在行政程序不透明、審查標準不一，還有地方勢力介入的問題，甚至有很多外資因為這樣的壓力退出臺灣市場。部長，針對這個部分，經濟部對於未來的能源政策有什麼看法？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們針對那幾項，事實上已經有一些因應的作法，我是不是請署長簡要跟委員報告？"],["李署長君禮：有關太陽光電有一些弊案，我們目前已經跟廉政署成立一個廉政平臺，也邀請法務部跟高檢署一起來參加。至於地方所涉及的各個部門，因為它有專業的職掌，所以在面對不同申請狀況的時候，會面對不同的條件。我們為了協和，目前是固定對光電比較多的臺南、嘉義、高雄及屏東這四個縣市，我們是每週會找兩個縣市就一定的申請案件討論，協助他們加速完成。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們支持有不法一定要嚴辦，但是針對合法申請的業者也應該要給予保障，尤其有些案子都已經申請很久了，這個越拖，未來對於臺灣的能源我們也擔心不夠。我們真的要審慎面對這樣的一個問題，好不好部長？"],["龔部長明鑫：了解，謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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主委"},{"start":113.795,"end":135.925,"text":"目前我們這個計畫裡頭我們橫跨了哪幾個部會像你的優稅匯率你必須要橫跨財政部然後就是說其他的部會像你這個也是衛福部就像你在講的長照的部分那目前你們的計畫就是說這個跨部會是跨哪幾個部會以智慧機器人這個項目來講"},{"start":138.803,"end":158.432,"text":"目前主責的部會包含國科會跟經濟部以及數位發展部是在發展科技的部分那國發會就是編列這個國發基金來協助我們在投資新創以及人才培育的部分"},{"start":159.352,"end":182.231,"text":"人才卑微也会牵涉到教育部那未来在我刚刚提到在机械人的产业在应用端应用端会牵涉到如果是健康招务就会有卫福部甚至还有运动部然后在旅宿餐饮的部分也会有经济部交通部等等其他的部位都会你身为一个召集人我想你把这整个"},{"start":183.272,"end":200.817,"text":"進程 演成的一個計畫做了一個很好的概括的論述那這裡我特別要講的就是說地方人才的一個培益那在兩個禮拜前我跟教育部請教就是說人才培益跟四幻學校的一個協作"},{"start":201.377,"end":224.043,"text":"因為事實上就是說在這整體的一個運作裡頭我們希望就是說我們在地有學校那個學程學程就是等於是他的課程裡頭是不是有辦法排進來那教育部他樂觀其成他希望就是說因為我的白河商工他是國立的他很願意去承接就是說機器人"},{"start":224.663,"end":232.812,"text":"他就是在基礎的学习的课程里头他们希望把他纳入这个课程可是缺老师"},{"start":234.109,"end":255.531,"text":"缺失职那你有没有什么比较好的一个建议呢这一部分如果是在高职的部分我们是建议可能可以跟我们的科技大学科技大学一起来合作那科技大学在国科会的部分我们也会编预算来支持特别是在南部这些科技大学"},{"start":256.332,"end":274.695,"text":"那你有沒有建議就是說幾個比較優的科技大學那你看教育部還可以編預算給他這個就是都是製造雙贏啊是那教育部其實不是只有在中小學嘛教育部也有在技職師在科技大學的部分他們也有投資所以像"},{"start":275.336,"end":302.578,"text":"像在台南的话有好几个科技大学都不错主委所以我想这个会后再跟你做一个探讨这个四环学校那需要的一个师资还有需要的一个经费那我们是不是朝着先把这个四环学校先把它就是做了一个计划那这样子的话等于是说在末端的时候我们还是有人才的一个培育可以到位好不好"},{"start":303.478,"end":322.408,"text":"好 人才协议部分好 谢谢好 那在这里我还特别要跟那个主委讲到了就是说你这个每一个部会的具体的一个跨部会合作的SOP还有就是100亿投资引进的一个机制跟目标跟企业的一个进度表这个你要给我"},{"start":323.228,"end":340.422,"text":"还有就是AI机器人四万学校那个四万学校的一个协作的一个规划跟国科会协作的一个项目也请你把资料给我好不好好谢谢主委谢谢赖会员委员质询主委请回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（12時16分）謝謝主席，請國科會主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，最強的臺南之光！","還是要利用這個時間與主委探討智慧機器人的進度，智慧機器人的產業計畫即將在明年上路，我相信國科會做了很多的準備，10年100億元的國發基金以及4年100億元的科技預算，在此要向國科會主委請教，主委，成立新創公司，以過往達成的情形來看，好像申請的公司非常多，但是實際達標的並不多，針對機器人產業，你有沒有什麼樣的配套措施及預期的目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的配套措施，第一，大南方新矽谷將來要發展，也希望能夠協助百工百業，現在的重點包含健康照護、旅宿餐飲，未來也會發展到智慧城市及其它的應用，這個搭配起來會讓我們服務型機器人的發展至少可以創造我們的內需市場，創造內需市場能夠讓臺灣的產業發展之後又能夠進到國際市場。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，目前這個計畫橫跨了哪幾個部會？像你的優惠稅率就必須橫跨財政部、像你講的長照是橫跨到衛福部，目前你們的計畫是跨了哪幾個部會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以智慧機器人這個項目來講，目前主責的部會包含國科會與經濟部以及數位發展部是在發展科技的部分，國發會就是編列國發基金來協助我們投資新創以及人才培育的部分，而人才培育也會牽涉到教育部。未來在機器人產業的應用端，如果是健康照護就會牽涉到衛福部、甚至是運動部；在旅宿餐飲的部分也會牽涉到經濟部及交通部等等，其他部會都會有……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，你身為召集人，將近程及遠程的計畫做了一個很好的概括論述。我在這裡特別要講的是地方人才的培育，兩個禮拜前我向教育部請教人才培育與示範學校的協作，事實上，在整體的運作中，我們希望是不是有辦法將它的課程排進在地學校的學程，而教育部當然是樂觀其成。因為我選區的白河商工是國立的學校，他們很希望能納入機器人的基礎課程，但是缺乏老師、缺乏師資，你有沒有什麼比較好的建議呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果是高職的部分，我們建議可能可以與科技大學一起……"],["賴委員惠員：科技大學？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，一起合作。科技大學在國科會的部分，我們也會編列預算支持，特別是在南部的這些科技大學。"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有建議是幾個比較優的科技大學？而且教育部還可以編列預算給它，這就是製造雙贏啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，教育部其實不只在中小學，技職司在科技大學的部分也有投資，像在臺南就有好幾所科技大學都不錯啊！"],["賴委員惠員：主委，關於這個部分，會後再與你做一個探討。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["賴委員惠員：示範學校需要的師資和經費，我們是不是朝向先把這個示範學校做成一個計畫？這樣子的話，等於在末端我們人才的培育還是可以到位，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：人才培育的部分，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：在這裡我還要特別跟主委講到，各部會具體進度與跨部會合作SOP，還有100億元投資引導機制與目標企業進度表，這個你要給我。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["賴委員惠員：還有AI機器人示範學校的協作規畫，跟國科會協作的項目也請你把資料給我，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。主委請回座。","接下來請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","請徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員，徐富癸委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","邱志偉委員要發言，給您3分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dad985a859ad2e8914ad42acad3a0f8ea62d78011594ec575781c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:05:14 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我請國科會吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":15.706,"end":29.044,"text":"主委好我們國科會是負責國家科技戰略的規劃那業務先設到了跨部會的協作那也有我們科研如何來跟產業協作所以面向可以說相當的廣"},{"start":30.265,"end":40.61,"text":"今天在業務報告當中有很多是我們很肯定的計劃希望可以持續那我今天就幾個我比較關注的個案來跟主委討論首先是師大女足案跟我們學術倫理的改革在這個案件當然是國人非常重視關心的是怎麼樣校園裡面會出現這樣可以說是人倫的悲劇"},{"start":55.518,"end":75.075,"text":"但是他後來大家就知道說那也是我們的學術計畫研究之一也包括我們國科會的計畫所以主委當時在這個個案上面馬上就做出了處置了我們就這個個案後來做了哪些的追究的處置"},{"start":76.645,"end":100.351,"text":"首先我們對當事的教授包含女主的教練跟她的老師我們已經在記者會有宣布對他們的處罰分別停權五年四年另外我們也對這個還有追回她的研究補助的經費"},{"start":101.571,"end":118.601,"text":"那另外我們對學校因為初期管理不當沒有積極的在處理這件事情對學校也有連帶的處分這個我們都在媒體都宣布了終止補助也追繳台師大補助經費246萬中央大學80萬"},{"start":122.503,"end":128.726,"text":"那麼這一案呢就不只是學術倫理其實因為他也是失對生的霸凌相當的嚴重所以當時國科會有提到說要針對我們國科會的研究計畫當中涉及人體研究的計畫要做一個全面的清查這個有沒有清查的結果了"},{"start":139.691,"end":159.923,"text":"這個我們已經有清查,然後已經尋這個程序在教育部、衛福部我們共同的平台上面現在已經在處理當中,要分別由教育部跟衛福部發函給這些學校"},{"start":161.021,"end":179.806,"text":"那學校學校要啟動然後要回報到到我們主責的部會包含衛福部教育部那那對國科來講收到這個報告以後我們會就這個學術倫理的部分再來再來決定是不是要有一些處置"},{"start":180.866,"end":190.621,"text":"所以全面清查的部分已經在進行還在進行當中我們已經清查完了所以我們目前在等待學校回報嗎對那我們預計什麼時候"},{"start":192.606,"end":220.676,"text":"這個deadline是什麼時候什麼時候會收到所有的回報然後我們這裡國科會有辦法做出最終有關學輪的審議是 跟委員報告這總共有97件的這個就是說要重新去檢視的案件那都陸陸續續已經回報那我們目前會跟教育部這邊你們要求學校什麼時候之前要回報完成總是有個時間吧有 他已經回報回來了全部都回報還是陸陸續續回報"},{"start":222.576,"end":236.621,"text":"97件都已經回報給你們所以現在在等你們囉他是回報給教育部因為主責教育部還沒給你們教育部他已經聯絡我們剛好在這個禮拜這個禮拜教育部聯絡你們了所以現在在等國科會做最終學輪的審議是嗎"},{"start":238.021,"end":266.787,"text":"不是 因為主責的單位是教育部所以教育部會聯合國科會這邊召開會議然後邀請相關的學者針對那97案教育部跟國科會一起來做對 就是說主責雖然是教育部但他也會找我們那目前有沒有拼桌什麼時間正在約下禮拜或下下禮拜會邀集相關的專家針對這97案的結果去做一個最終的審議看起來應該是10月底啦會有最終的審議或11月初"},{"start":268.007,"end":290.998,"text":"對 報告委員 這裡面的審議是從裡頭去篩選出說比較重大 就是說需要再進入真正人體研究的法規的懲處的我們就會進行敘述所以目前就各個學校所調查的結果我們要去做一個比較詳細的我了解 因為涉及的學校多 也有跨部會之間的合作"},{"start":291.718,"end":310.614,"text":"所以這個案件過去這一年多來這個過程我知道主委你從初期就開始關切但是國人也在想怎麼會處理的時間需要那麼久呢所以我想後續的處置還是非常重要的這個部分要請主委再來幫忙跟跨部會大家一起來把這個時間"},{"start":312.375,"end":331.578,"text":"要把它抓緊我希望今年底以前我們可以知道一個你們最終審查的結果這究竟是不是個案如果是有個案以外其他的案例的話那當然我們的改革要趕快開始啟動所以國科會除了個案之外作為針對後續的改革主委在9月提出4點"},{"start":332.799,"end":356.998,"text":"那第一個是我們的研究人員學術倫理守則的新訂已經完成了這個肯定你們那關於我們多年期計畫就是每一年你要再來經過研究倫理的審查以及你的國科會學術倫理案件審議要點要來修改這兩個這兩個項目我們有沒有都完成了也已經完成了好那"},{"start":358.956,"end":370.697,"text":"要請你們再把資料公開或者提供因為我們關心的時候還沒有收到這個後續的這個改革很重要所以請主委要來關切"},{"start":372.796,"end":396.948,"text":"主委在這個案件的檢討當中除了這個改革你也提到說希望未來我們的研究計畫學界整體的環境不要只偏重投稿的幾篇論文而是要去注重它實際的貢獻當時主委提到說因為我們不要鼓勵老師單純為了衡量去量產論文就是充點數充偏數主委你認為我們這個後續應該怎麼來做"},{"start":402.748,"end":413.827,"text":"我們已經在各處我們各學術處在這個學問召集人會議我們也都宣導過了那相關的這個表格包含計畫申請表格以及在成果"},{"start":414.793,"end":443.829,"text":"他要结案的时候他要申报他的计划执行的成果在成果的表现上面我们也都把规范都改了希望能够注重的是他对产业对社会对学术的贡献不是只是在计算论文的偏速这个事情这些机制我们都已经做好了已经开始在执行了同时我们将来也在试探场会对各大学"},{"start":444.649,"end":470.084,"text":"會來宣導這個事這個我想對學界整體來說其實是一個非常重大的變革那麼這個問題其實也討論多年就像我在當我也做過國科研究計畫助理我也做過中研院的研究助理這個研究人員必須要為了你們這個量產這個衡量的標準他去每年一定要幾篇一定要登上哪一個期刊一定要怎麼樣這個整個"},{"start":472.765,"end":493.027,"text":"回過頭來也影響到整個學術生產的過程所以我認為你們最後這個衡量標準的變革是非常重要的那也很期待它對學界它有一個長遠的良善的影響那看到中研院在今年2月開始也新增了一個叫做敘述性的履歷"},{"start":494.608,"end":508.988,"text":"那一樣的意思就是說不只看量要看其他方面的貢獻所以也希望說在我們現在在改革當中嘛未來跟學界也要持續的多聽意見來多溝通我們希望整體的學術環境可以來提升那麼"},{"start":511.371,"end":537.549,"text":"除了學術研究之外國科會也有計畫是災防 防災不管是科技上面的經濟也好這個我們10月8號福衛8號就起撥令已經起運到美國了現在預計是11月要來升空在我們目前台灣的防災當中像這一次花蓮 馬太安我們的福衛5號是不是也事先就有收集到相關的意向來提供是"},{"start":538.79,"end":565.934,"text":"我們災防中心在收集各部位的資料也包含我們國科會自己的資料那我們太空中心的現在在服役的服衛五號也發揮了蠻大的這個功效所以這個資料我們也同步整合到災防中心做這個研判是 那服衛八號因為它是未來是一個新系嘛不只是一顆未來會怎麼樣來協助提升我們的災防呢"},{"start":566.775,"end":581.58,"text":"福岳八号相较于福岳五号它解析度更精细了可以看得更精准它在明年的春季就会开始提供这个服务跟福岳五号合起来"},{"start":582.04,"end":598.109,"text":"我們等於多了一顆衛星了那將來這個能夠觀察的時間更長就是更多次的這個經過台灣的上空我們可以觀察到所以會做得更精準所以明年春季就可以開始來提供那非常期待"},{"start":598.669,"end":613.283,"text":"那我們預計一定是希望要順利那我們也看到這個太空中心是不是有預計跟日本的太空公司iSpace有簽訂一個合約我們要來推動台灣首個國家級月球探勘任務嗎"},{"start":615.075,"end":636.613,"text":"這個我請吳主任來好 謝謝這是一個open的tent就是公開招標然後我們有兩個籌宅一個是清大一個是我突然忘記哪個學校大概是2028會送上去NULA他上去以後就land在那邊做一個是光學UV量測一個是另外一個量測所以是跟他們有合作 對"},{"start":637.313,"end":644.041,"text":"台灣首次的登月任務預計在2028年我們非常期待也預祝要順利好 謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝佩儀委員質詢 主委請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時5分）謝謝主席，我請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。我們國科會是負責國家科技戰略的規劃，業務牽涉到跨部會的協作，也有科研如何與產業協作，因此面向可說是相當的廣。在今天的業務報告中，有很多是我們很肯定的計畫，也希望能夠持續，不過，今天我要就幾個我比較關注的個案與主委討論。","首先是師大女足案與我們學術倫理的改革，這是國人相當重視及關心的案件，怎麼會在校園中出現這樣可稱為是人倫悲劇的事件？但是，後來大家都知道那是我們的學術計畫研究之一，也包括了我們國科會的計畫，因此，當時主委馬上就針對這個個案作出處置，後來這個個案做了哪些追究的處置？"],["吳主任委員誠文：首先，針對當事的教授，包括女足的教練及老師，我們已經在記者會宣布對他們的處罰，分別停權5年、4年，以及追回研究補助的經費。另外，針對學校的初期管理不當，沒有積極處理這件事情，所以對學校也有連帶的處分，我們在記者會上都宣布過了。"],["吳委員沛憶：終止補助，也追繳了臺師大補助經費246萬元、中央大學80萬元。這個案子不只是學術倫理，其實也是師對生的霸凌，相當的嚴重，當時國科會也提出要針對國科會的研究計畫當中涉及人體研究的計畫做全面的清查，有沒有清查的結果了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經做了清查，也已經循程序在教育部及衛福部的共同平台上處理當中，分別由教育部及衛福部發函給這些學校，學校要啟動並回報給我們主責的部會，包含衛福部及教育部。對國科會來講，在收到這個報告之後，我們會就學術倫理的部分，再來決定是不是要有一些處置。因此，全面清查的部分已經在進行，而且……"],["吳委員沛憶：還在進行當中？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經清查完了。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前在等待學校回報嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們預計什麼時候？deadline是什麼時候？什麼時候會收到所有的回報，讓國科會最終能夠做出有關學倫的審議？"],["黃處長俊儒：報告委員，總共有97件要重新檢視案件，陸陸續續都已經回報了，我們目前會與教育部這邊……"],["吳委員沛憶：你們要求學校在什麼時候之前要完成回報？總是有個時間吧？"],["黃處長俊儒：有，它已經回報回來了。"],["吳委員沛憶：全部都回報了？或是陸陸續續回報？"],["黃處長俊儒：97件都已經回報了。"],["吳委員沛憶：都已經回報給你們，所以現在是在等你們囉？"],["黃處長俊儒：它是回報給教育部，因為主責的……"],["吳委員沛憶：教育部還沒給你們？"],["黃處長俊儒：教育部剛好在這個禮拜已經聯絡我們了。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個禮拜教育部聯絡你們了？"],["黃處長俊儒：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在就在等國科會做最終的學倫審議，是嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：不是，因為主責的單位是教育部，所以教育部會聯合國科會召開會議，邀請相關的學者，針對97案……"],["吳委員沛憶：教育部與國科會一起來做？"],["黃處長俊儒：對，雖然主責是教育部，但它也會找我們……"],["吳委員沛憶：目前有沒有說什麼時間……"],["黃處長俊儒：我們正在約下禮拜或下下禮拜，邀集相關的專家，針對這97件案子的結果進行最終的審議。"],["吳委員沛憶：看起來應該是10月底或11月初會有最終的審議？"],["黃處長俊儒：對。報告委員，這個審議是從裡頭篩選出比較重大的，也就是需要再進入人體研究的法規懲處的案件，我們就會進行續處，所以目前是就各個學校調查的結果去做一個比較詳細的……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我了解。因為涉及的學校多，也有跨部會之間的合作，我知道主委從這個案子的初期就開始關切，但是國人也在想怎麼處理的時間會需要那麼久呢？我認為後續的處置還是非常重要的，這個部分要請主委再幫忙，跨部會大家一起把這個時間抓緊，我希望在今年底之前可以知道你們最終審查的結果，究竟是否只是個案？如果有個案之外的其他案例，當然我們的改革就要趕快開始啟動。","因此，國科會除了個案之外，針對後續改革的部分，主委，你在9月也提出了四點，第一個是研究人員學術倫理守則的新訂已經完成，這個要給予你們肯定！關於我們的多年期計畫，也就是每一年要再經過研究倫理的審查，以及國科會學術倫理案件審議要點要修改，我們對於這二個項目有沒有……"],["吳主任委員誠文：都完成了。"],["吳委員沛憶：也已經完成了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，請你們再把資料公開或提供，因為我們關心的時候還沒有收到。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會把資料提供給委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：後續的改革很重要，所以要請主委關切。主委，在這個案件的檢討當中，除了改革之外，你也提到希望未來的研究計畫、學界整體的環境，不要只偏重在投搞了幾篇論文，而是要注重它實際的貢獻。當時主委提到不要鼓勵老師單純為了衡量去量產論文，也就是衝點數啊！衝篇數啊！主委，你認為後續應該怎麼做呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經在各學術處、學門召集人會議都宣導過了。針對相關的表格，包括計畫申請表格，以及在結案時要申報他的計畫執行成果，我們也都把規範改了，希望能夠在成果的表現上注重的是它對產業、對社會、對學術的貢獻，不是只計算論文的篇數。我們這些技術面的已經都做好了、也已經都開始執行，將來在適當場合也會對各大學宣導這件事。"],["吳委員沛憶：對學界整體而言，我認為其實是一個非常重大的變革，這個問題也已經討論多年，之前我也擔任過國科會研究計畫助理、我也擔任過中研院的研究助理，研究人員必須為了你們量產衡量的標準，每年一定要幾篇、一定要登上哪個期刊、一定要怎麼樣，回過頭來看，其實也影響到整個學術生產的過程，因此，我認為你們這個衡量標準的變革是非常重要的，也很期待它對學界有一個長遠的、良善的影響。","看到中研院在今年2月開始也新增了敘述性履歷，一樣的意思，不只是看量，也要看其他方面的貢獻，現在你們正在改革當中，未來也要持續多聽學界的意見、多溝通，我們希望整體的學術環境可以提升。","除了學術研究之外，國科會也有防災的計畫，包括在科技上的精進等等，10月8日我們的福衛八號已經起運到美國了，預計要在11月升空。目前在臺灣的防災當中，像這次花蓮馬太鞍，福衛五號是不是事先就收集到相關的影像來提供？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們的災防中心收集各部會的資料，也包含我們國科會自己的資料，而我們太空中心正在服役的福衛五號也發揮了滿大的功效，所以我們能夠將這個資料同步整合給防災中心進行研判。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為福衛八號是一個星系，不只是一顆，未來它會如何提升我們的災防呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：福衛八號相較於福衛五號，它的解析度更精細，可以看得更精準，明年春季就會開始提供服務，與福衛五號合起來，我們等於是多了一顆衛星，將來能夠觀察的時間更長，也就是經過臺灣上空更多次，我們可以觀察到，所以會做得更精準。"],["吳委員沛憶：明年春季就可以開始提供？非常期待！"],["吳主任委員誠文：順利的話。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們也希望它能夠順利。此外，太空中心是不是預計要與日本的太空公司ispace簽訂一個合約？我們要推動臺灣首個國家級月球探勘任務嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請吳主任來說明。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任宗信：這是一個open tendering（公開招標），我們有兩個酬載，一個是清大、一個是……我突然忘了是哪個學校，大概是2028年會送上去lunar。在它上去之後就land在那邊做光學UV量測、一個是另外一個量測，所以與他們是有合作。"],["吳委員沛憶：臺灣首次的登月任務預計在2028年，我們非常的期待，也預祝能夠順利，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沛憶委員質詢，請主委回座。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da5f4784623365076c34f1f132b5784e042d78011594ec57573dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:11:09 - 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那個首先啦在開始邀請列席的行政官員上來備詢以前我有個會議詢問想要先詢問一下昭偉第一個事情是 我先代表"},{"start":21.038,"end":49.319,"text":"台灣民眾黨立法院黨團感謝召委今天排審這個外送員權益專法因為過去太長的時間當中我們看到每天在馬路上吹風淋雨的這些年輕人他們的心聲但我們一直在等我們一直在等等到要拖到什麼時候我們才能夠處理啊"},{"start":50.833,"end":79.17,"text":"這個專法我相信韋翔也記得我們在一起在台中大街小巷的時候不管是庭委不管是韋翔我們在馬路上看到那麼多年輕人跟我們揮手我們答應他們我們說到的事情我們會做到所以我先感謝廖昭偉今天終於讓這個法案有開始生立的機會"},{"start":80.56,"end":101.597,"text":"但我看了今天的整個議程 我覺得很困惑因為今天排審的有委員侯孟凱21人拟據有台灣民眾黨黨團拟據有委員羅廷維拟據有委員王一鳴拟據有委員王洪威拟據有委員楊瓊英拟據 總共排了6萬"},{"start":103.169,"end":131.318,"text":"我看了半天以後 趙偉你們是不是作業有疏忽啊民進黨立法院黨團昨天不是大動作說他們提出了最好的版本你怎麼沒有把這個最好的版本一起今天排審現在這個到底是怎麼回事因為我們在野黨不要讓公民誤會說民進黨立法院黨團在沉睡了幾年以後昨天突然提出了最好的版本卻沒有把它排審上來"},{"start":132.762,"end":147.501,"text":"回答黃國昌委員因為民進黨團的版本還沒有送到院會裡面來蛤 到現在都還沒有送來還沒有 對喔 好 那這樣子我了解了不是啦 這種事情一定要公開講清楚嘛要不然有很多外送員朋友大家會覺得很困惑嘛"},{"start":148.542,"end":165.316,"text":"不要造成這樣子的困惑我覺得會比較好啦好謝謝謝謝召委來現在有請勞動部部長洪森漢交通部次長陳彥博數位發展部次長葉寧那以及經濟部只有經濟部有人來嗎"},{"start":167.923,"end":195.659,"text":"現在經濟部有人在嗎經濟部是商業發展署的副署長是是是請也跟那個黃委員說一下剛剛這個速發部的次長他說他有會議所以現在在現場的是副署長黃亞平OK好沒有關係黃委員好那個再請我們洪部長以前我先請問一下其他主管機關因為剛剛所有人都關心"},{"start":197.001,"end":212.451,"text":"行政院有沒有版本什麼時候要送到立法院來剛剛洪部長在回答其他委員備詢的時候其實也講得很清楚這件事情有部裡面可以努力的地方他要送到行政院"},{"start":213.491,"end":241.645,"text":"行政院什麼時候會出來其實也不知道因為我在司法法治委員會這種狀況我遇過很多法務部部長常常跟我講他很無奈說法務部的版本早就送到行政院了但行政院很忙忙得不得了通常一個部的版本送到行政院裡面睡個一年兩年沒有什麼下文在目前的狀態下面其實已經成為常態"},{"start":242.785,"end":270.861,"text":"那個例子不生沒舉但是我們對於外送員權益的保障我們對於這些年輕人的承諾是絕對不可能去考慮說勞動部的版本什麼時候要送出來送出來以後到行政院裡面又要睡多久但為了加速接下來可能時間的進行能夠加速一點各個部會是不是贊成很重要"},{"start":271.661,"end":298.172,"text":"要不然勞動部為了勞工的權益在前面衝後面其他的部會在扯後腿這樣不好啊 所以來 先從現在 因為行政院院會有指定有關外送平台專責的機關是交通部嘛簡要回答 第一個針對訂定這個外送員權益的專法交通部贊不贊成我們交通部支持支持嘛 來 第二個 經濟部"},{"start":300.522,"end":313.797,"text":"經濟部支不支持 支持嘛 喔 好速發部支不支持 速發部也支持那顯然就不是其他部會扯後腿的問題嘛其他部會都支持啊 後尾你有沒有聽到"},{"start":315.325,"end":331.127,"text":"有嘛其他部會都支持嘛大家都支持啊 非常好那剛剛部長說啊說勞動部這邊大概還要三個月的時間來作業嘛三個月內 非常好那三個月內我希望內快一點啦因為"},{"start":332.27,"end":350.271,"text":"我基本上從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我會強力的要求中國國民黨黨團只要我對你們有不敬強力的要求中國國民黨黨團這個法案要往前推年底以前完成三讀這是我們的政治目標我們一起努力"},{"start":351.352,"end":362.961,"text":"不管勞動部要多久 行政院要多久現在有個關鍵的問題是說你們在訂所謂的勞動部版本或行政院版本的過程當中相關的公會代表可不可以邀請來參與"},{"start":365.407,"end":393.628,"text":"定版本就在炒你版本的過程當中聽取大家的意見的時候相關工會的代表可不可以來當然啊當然可以嘛因為我是今天來的時候就是有工會的代表來跟我反映他說民進黨好像這一兩天可能是在黨的平台不關行政院的事啦找了很多工會說要去討論那個版本的內容"},{"start":394.429,"end":422.727,"text":"那民進黨願意這樣子做但是他就覺得說但是他沒有受邀啦但是他希望在政府的平台上因為政府平台上就不應該有黨派之別嘛所以呢在勞動部或是行政院的平台上面要這些相關的工會代表來參與的時候不會因為不同的工會有大小眼啊為什麼會大小眼不會 當然不會 絕對不會嘛當然不會 非常好其實他要的只有這個答案 非常好"},{"start":423.627,"end":443.957,"text":"那我們接下來來看 台灣民眾黨黨團其實我們從上一屆國會的時候在相臨委員他就早就提出來了但那個時候沒有辦法那個時候勞動部沒有要推因為勞動部說什麼勞動部說訂專法有一定的難度那我相信現在這個困難應該克服了"},{"start":445.387,"end":456.315,"text":"克服不少 克服不少嘛繼續努力啦 趕快克服啦因為我剛剛態度表明的很清楚這個法案在繼續向前走的過程當中"},{"start":457.83,"end":484.872,"text":"我們不會等我們不會等早一點進來有行政部門的聲音絕對是好事至於說法條裡面具體的各個設計包括了大家其實最關心的是因為經濟部的代表今天關心的事情是有很多小吃店有很多商家頭很痛被抽成抽很多我煮一個便當我賣一個牛腩堡100塊"},{"start":488.071,"end":499.485,"text":"結果裡面如果有三四十塊被平台業者抽走那接下來他們要怎麼活第二個事情是從外送員的角度也是一樣送了以後我們外送員薪資的計算"},{"start":501.616,"end":529.717,"text":"高度不透明那也是導致我們年輕朋友常常出來抗議的理由我相信這些聲音你們在過去研議的過程當中都聽到那針對這些相關具體法案實際上面設計的內容終於有機會可以真槍實彈的開始進行討論了我希望接下來在這個法案在這個委員會推進的過程當中能夠一切順利"},{"start":530.878,"end":552.867,"text":"主席站起來了我下面的PPT我會另外再用時間找其他的時間部長有機會來委員會的時候我再進一步請教我跟簡單回應委員我們自己覺得外送人的這個專法是很可以朝野合作來把它共同完成那也會對外送人的權益會跨出蠻大的一步我們很樂意用這個態度來積極的來參與好很好謝謝"},{"start":559.431,"end":559.917,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":914,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時11分）謝謝召委。首先，在開始邀請列席的行政官員上來備詢以前，我有個會議詢問想要先詢問召委，第一個事情是，我先代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團感謝召委今天排審外送員權益專法，因為過去太長的時間當中，我們看到每天在馬路上吹風淋雨的這些年輕人他們的心聲，但我們一直在等，我們一直在等要拖到什麼時候才能夠處理這個專法。我相信偉翔也記得，我們那時候一起在臺中的大街小巷，不管是廷瑋，不管是偉翔，我們在馬路上看到那麼多年輕人跟我們揮手，我們答應他們，我們說到的事情我們會做到，所以我先感謝廖召委今天終於讓這個法案有開始審理的機會。","但我看了今天整個議程，我覺得很困惑，因為今天排審的，有委員洪孟楷等21人擬具，有台灣民眾黨黨團擬具，有委員羅廷瑋擬具，有委員王育敏擬具，有委員王鴻薇擬具，有委員楊瓊瓔擬具，總共排了6案。我看了半天以後，召委，你們是不是作業有疏忽？民進黨立法院黨團昨天不是大動作說他們提出了最好的版本，你怎麼沒有把這個最好的版本一起在今天排審？現在到底是怎麼回事？因為我們在野黨不要讓公民誤會，說民進黨立法院黨團在沉睡了幾年以後，昨天突然提出了最好的版本，卻沒有把它排審上來。"],["主席：回答黃國昌委員，因為民進黨團的版本還沒有送到院會裡面來。"],["黃委員國昌：蛤？到現在都還沒有送來？"],["主席：還沒有，對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這樣子我瞭解了。不是啦！這種事情一定要公開講清楚，要不然有很多外送員朋友會覺得很困惑，不要造成這樣子的困惑我覺得會比較好，好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。"],["黃委員國昌：現在有請勞動部部長洪申翰、交通部次長陳彥伯、數位發展部次長葉寧，經濟部有人來嗎？現在經濟部有人在嗎？"],["主席：經濟部是商業發展署的副署長。"],["黃委員國昌：是是是，請。"],["主席：也跟黃委員說一下，剛剛數發部的次長說他有會議，所以現在在現場的是副署長黃雅萍。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：在請洪部長以前，我先請問一下其他主管機關，因為剛剛所有的人都關心行政院有沒有版本、什麼時候要送到立法院來，而洪部長在回答其他委員質詢的時候，其實也講得很清楚，這件事情部裡面有部裡面可以努力的地方，它要送到行政院嘛！至於行政院什麼時候會出來，其實也不知道，因為我在司法法制委員會，這種狀況我遇過很多，法務部部長常常跟我講他很無奈，說法務部的版本早就送到行政院了，但行政院很忙，忙得不得了啊！通常一個部的版本送到行政院裡面，睡個一年、兩年沒有什麼下文，在目前的狀態下其實已經成為常態，那個例子不勝枚舉，但是我們對於外送員權益的保障，我們對於這些年輕人的承諾是絕對不可能去考慮說勞動部的版本什麼時候要送出來，送出來以後到行政院裡面又要睡多久。","不過為了接下來時間的進行能夠加速一點，各個部會是不是贊成很重要，要不然勞動部為了勞工的權益在前面衝，後面其他的部會在扯後腿，這樣不好。現在因為行政院院會有指定，有關於外送平台專責的機關是交通部，請簡要回答，第一個，針對訂定外送員權益專法，交通部贊不贊成？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們交通部支持，贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：支持嘛！來，第二個，經濟部，經濟部支不支持？"],["劉副署長雅娟：支持。"],["黃委員國昌：支持嘛！好，數發部支不支持？"],["黃副署長雅萍：我們也支持。"],["黃委員國昌：數發部也支持。"],["黃副署長雅萍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那顯然就不是其他部會扯後腿的問題，其他部會都支持，厚偉，你有沒有聽到？有嘛！其他部會都支持，大家都支持，非常好。","剛剛部長說勞動部這邊大概還要3個月的時間來作業嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：3個月內。"],["黃委員國昌：3個月內，非常好。那3個月內，我希望「內」能快一點，因為基本上，從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場，我會強力地要求中國國民黨黨團，召委，對你沒有不敬啦！強力地要求中國國民黨黨團，這個法案要往前推，年底以前完成三讀，這是我們的政治目標，我們一起努力。","那不管啦！不管勞動部要多久，行政院要多久，我現在有個關鍵的問題是說，你們在訂所謂的勞動部版本或行政院版本的過程當中，相關的工會代表可不可以邀請來參與？"],["洪部長申翰：訂版本？"],["黃委員國昌：就是在草擬版本的過程當中，聽取大家意見的時候，相關工會的代表可不可以來參與？"],["洪部長申翰：當然啊！"],["黃委員國昌：當然可以嘛？因為我今天來的時候，有工會的代表來跟我反映，他說民進黨好像這一、兩天，可能是在黨的平台，不關行政院的事啦！找了很多工會說要去討論那個版本的內容，民進黨願意這樣子做，不過他沒有受邀啦！但是他希望在政府的平台上，因為政府平台上就不應該有黨派之別，所以在勞動部或是行政院的平台上面，邀這些相關的工會代表來參與的時候，不會因為不同的工會有大小眼啦？"],["洪部長申翰：為什麼會大小眼？不會，當然不會。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不會嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然不會。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好，其實他要的只有這個答案。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好。好，我們接下來看，台灣民眾黨黨團其實從上一屆國會的時候，賴香伶委員他早就提出來了，但那個時候沒有辦法，那個時候勞動部沒有要推，因為勞動部說什麼？勞動部說訂專法有一定的難度，我相信現在這個困難應該克服了嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：克服不少。"],["黃委員國昌：克服不少，好，繼續努力，趕快克服啦！因為我剛剛態度表明得很清楚，這個法案在繼續向前走的過程當中，我們不會等，我們不會等，早一點進來，有行政部門的聲音絕對是好事。","至於法條裡面具體的各個設計，其實大家最關心的，經濟部的代表今天關心的事情是，有很多小吃店，有很多商家，頭很痛啊！被抽成抽很多啊！我煮一個便當，我賣一個牛腩煲100塊，如果裡面有三、四十塊被平台業者抽走，那接下來他們要怎麼活？","第二個事情是，從外送員的角度也是一樣，送了以後，我們外送員薪資的計算高度不透明，那也是導致年輕朋友常常出來抗議的理由，我相信這些聲音你們在過去研議的過程當中都有聽到，針對具體法案實際上面設計的內容，終於有機會可以真槍實彈地開始進行討論了，我希望接下來這個法案在這個委員會推進的過程當中能夠一切順利。主席站起來了，我下面的PPT會另外再找其他時間，在部長有機會來委員會的時候，我再進一步請教。"],["洪部長申翰：我簡單回應委員，我們自己覺得外送員的這個專法是很可以朝野合作來共同完成，這對外送員的權益保障也會跨出滿大的一步，我們很樂意用這個態度積極的來參與。"],["黃委員國昌：好，很好！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員發言。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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所以這個就是為什麼現在這麼多委員有共識嘛跟黨團有共識應該就是要立專法嘛不然就是讓平台予取予求啊他連你主管局都不理你了那更何況這一些外送員他用自己的聲音跟力量怎麼去對抗這個平台的大怪獸他沒有辦法 那個權力是極度的不對等喔所以這個部分 我拜託你喔你這個三個月是太誇張了請趕快跟上腳步好嗎"},{"start":526.067,"end":538.128,"text":"另外一個我要提的是我要問你的態度賴清德總統說請一個如果有一個小孩就可以申請一個移工這件事情勞動部要同意嗎"},{"start":540.113,"end":559.654,"text":"之前在討論80歲以上免申請巴士量表的時候你講了非常多理由這個人口暴增來源國不足啊嚴重排擠啊那現在賴清德總統提一個小孩就可以一個移工不是更不足嗎不是來源國會更不足嗎你敢不敢反對總統我們現在的確是在評估中"},{"start":562.714,"end":590.999,"text":"所以你同意了並不是簡單的同意不同意那你為什麼之前80歲以上這個老人家那麼老了免巴士量表你一堆反對的理由那賴總統講說一個小孩就要請一個移工你就可以評估我們在政策評估中對啊所以你一切是看上意啊對不對如果按照你之前反對80歲以上這個外籍移工免巴士量表的理由的話放到賴總統提出來這個政策那你更應該反對到底如果你立場一致的話"},{"start":591.499,"end":616.058,"text":"我是希望我們討論任何政策不要看顏色了就是真的是依專業來評估好不好那專業評估就會有一致性不會因為是誰提出來而任意去更改我希望賴總統這樣子講要慎重的評估兩個小孩比較合理一個小孩就請一個移工聽起來真的是不太合理移工的量恐怕也沒那麼大我們在整體評估中然後包括相關的配套謝謝"},{"start":619.085,"end":620.09,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員發言請黃國昌委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你剛剛說外送人員權益專法要3個月才能送進立法院。"],["洪部長申翰：因為還有後面一些法制程序要用……"],["王委員育敏：你知道3個月是什麼概念嗎？3個月之後已經是多久以後的事了？明年1月中以後的事了，1月底，立法院這個會期已經結束了，所以又要拖到明年的下會期。如果要等你們的話，要到明年下會期才要開始審議這樣的一個專法，那我們召委為什麼要在今天就排了這個專法？今天已經在詢答，如果召委加快速度的話，我們下下禮拜就進入逐條了，你還在3個月咧！誰要等你啊！你這個就是明年才要修法的概念耶！怎麼可能？這樣子拖拖拉拉是真的想要保障這一些外送員的權益，還是以拖待變？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我們現在就是最後階段的法制作業。"],["王委員育敏：最後階段為什麼還需要3個月？"],["洪部長申翰：因為包括預告……"],["王委員育敏：部長，容我提醒你，你的表達前後矛盾，剛剛有委員在問你的時候，你說你已經跟這些外送員開了很多次的會議。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：從什麼時候開始？幾月份開的？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是從6月、7月。"],["王委員育敏：6月就開始開會了，然後你到現在版本還長不出來，還跟委員會說還要再3個月才要送進來，勞動部做事情是這麼的沒有效率嗎？而且坦白講，討論外送員權益專法也不是今天才開始，你自己擔任過立法委員，在你擔任立法委員任內，你又在衛環委員會，都有相關的討論，大家都有一些基本的想法跟概念。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：它不是從零開始的，所以為什麼還需要3個月？完全沒有辦法接受！跟召委報告，如果勞動部是這樣的態度，下下禮拜我們就進逐條吧！完全不需要等待啊！等待是沒有意義的，因為這件事情不可能你現在才開始研議，你竟然還要再花3個月的時間，也太沒有效率了！如果是這樣子，民進黨團昨天在演哪一齣？匆匆忙忙開了一個記者會說他們有黨版了，它那麼匆忙做什麼？它沒有跟你商量嗎？你還要3個月，它昨天那麼匆忙地開了記者會拍照，說他們有黨版了，你們在演哪一齣？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["王委員育敏：到底有沒有決心要儘快地通過？我以為昨天民進黨黨團很匆忙地開了一個記者會之後，代表它跟你們講好了，大家現在有共識了，因為今天已經在詢答了，所以我們要用最快的速度讓這個專法可以完成，結果你剛剛的回答是還要3個月後，沒有決心啦！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在其實朝野都有版本，當然我們很願意就目前朝野的版本來做討論，但因為委員希望我們提出行政部門的版本，我說我們也願意提出行政部門版，我們願意儘快，但是後續因為行政部門確實跟委員在立法院提案有不太一樣的地方，我們還要經過預告，包括法規會的審議，包括行政院法規會的審議，這裡面會有一些審議不盡然全部都可以控在勞動部手上，尤其是這裡面還涉及到一些跨部會的職權，所以在這裡面綜合……"],["王委員育敏：所以你老早就應該要提早上路啦！既然你6月份都願意跟外送員坐下來談了，你怎麼不那個時候就開始？你所有的工作在6月份就應該要啟動，而不是因為國民黨的召委排案之後，你從今天開始才要啟動所有的行政作業，這個就是你們怠忽職守。"],["洪部長申翰：並不是今天才開始。"],["王委員育敏：你們不夠重視這件事情，我必須坦白講，你們不夠重視，這個就是事實。","進到這個法的內涵，剛剛其實你也提到了，在他的薪資收入，在他的保險，在他的工作權，我們應該都有具體保障。事實上這部法不難，就一些關鍵的部分，我要問你的態度是同意或不同意，現在的停權是外送平台權力非常大，我把你停權就停權了，完全沒有期限，也沒有規範，本席提出至少應該提前30日告知，並給予經濟補償，這個你同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：停權就要經濟補償？"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在比較是針對終止契約要經濟補償，所以委員的版本是停權就要經濟補償嗎？"],["王委員育敏：對，我希望如果你提出停權，你要提早告知，如果加上終止契約，就是應該要給予經濟補償。"],["洪部長申翰：因為基本上，現在的版本應該都是……"],["王委員育敏：大家是很有共識。"],["洪部長申翰：如果談到終止契約的部分，才會有經濟補償的部分。"],["王委員育敏：對，那提前30日告知呢？你同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實提前告知是可以，但……"],["王委員育敏：你們自己心裡應該都有一個底了吧？"],["洪部長申翰：基本上我們是認為第一個，停權這件事情的重點是停權的事由要清楚。第二個，要有明確的申訴機制，因為現在遇到外送人員傳達的事情是，申訴的時候打電話到某個申訴專線，可是那個專線並不是真人的專線，申訴都會石沉大海，所以應該要有專人的回應、專人的處理。"],["王委員育敏：是，這個我們都同意，那它需不需要提前告知？如果按照現在平台這麼粗暴的做法，很多外送員他是有外送才有收入耶！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["王委員育敏：你可以在不提前告知的情況底下，你就直接說不給你接單了，那他的收入就是零耶！不需要提前告知嗎？不需要規範一個期限嗎？給他有一個心理準備，他知道我即將被停權，我的支出可能要稍微撙節一點，或者是我要去想有沒有其他的管道跟方法，不需要嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我覺得提前這件事情，我們是可以討論的。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["洪部長申翰：但是我要說的是，委員剛才講的事情裡面，通常是在終止契約的部分才會去討論經濟補償，不是在停權上。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個可以再討論。","另外一個是接單費的計算，我們看到之前Uber Eats擅自更改了新制，它一改可能會讓這個外送員平均一單就少了四成三。它改成這樣子，然後聽說你們勞動部也有介入，也有去跟平台業者談，那談了之後，我知道的是，完全沒有效果啊！平台根本不理你啊！不理你勞動部啊！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確它是……"],["王委員育敏：你完全沒有辦法去改變它啊！"],["洪部長申翰：它是把第2單的部分……它現在是首單從40塊變成45塊，不是50塊。"],["王委員育敏：對，這一個可以調整，但算下來就是錢少很多，他的獎勵金就沒有了。"],["洪部長申翰：他是前面兩單會減少19塊。"],["王委員育敏：他的獎勵費就直接取消啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對，然後……"],["王委員育敏：所以他平均，如果這樣的算法是少了四成三。"],["洪部長申翰：就是少了19塊，前兩單。"],["王委員育敏：是少了四成三，所以這樣的情況底下，你認為……"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們……"],["王委員育敏：你認為對一個外送員的衝擊不大嗎？讓人家最擔心的是，後來你們也有去找平台開會。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：但是沒有結果，沒有人要理你啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以這也是為什麼我們認為如果平台是這樣的態度的話……"],["王委員育敏：那你不覺得這個專法更應該趕快上路嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是，如果平台是這個……"],["王委員育敏：那你還3個月後才要提版本。"],["洪部長申翰：如果平台是這個態度的話，我們也認為法制化當然是有必要的。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！所以這個就是為什麼現在這麼多的委員有共識，跟黨團有共識，應該就是要立專法，不然你就會讓平台予取予求，它連你主管機關都不理你了，更何況這一些外送員，他用自己的聲音跟力量怎麼去對抗這個平台的大怪獸？他沒有辦法，那個權力是極度的不對等，所以這一個部分我拜託你，你這個3個月是太誇張了。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會儘快。"],["王委員育敏：請趕快跟上腳步好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個我要提的是，我要問你的態度了，賴清德總統說如果有一個小孩就可以申請一個移工，這件事情勞動部要同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目……"],["王委員育敏：之前在討論80歲以上申請免巴氏量表的時候，你講了非常多理由，包括需求暴增，來源國不足啊！嚴重排擠啊！現在賴清德總統提一個小孩就可以請一個移工，不是更不足嗎？來源國不是會更不足嗎？你敢不敢反對總統？你敢不敢告訴他真實的情況？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在的確是在評估中。"],["王委員育敏：所以你同意了？"],["洪部長申翰：並不是簡單的同意不同意……"],["王委員育敏：那你為什麼之前80歲以上，老人家那麼老了，免巴氏量表你一堆反對的理由，賴總統講說一個小孩請一個移工你就可以評估？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在政策評估中。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！所以你一切是看上意，對不對？如果按照你之前反對80歲以上申請外籍移工免巴氏量表的理由，放到賴總統提出來的這個政策，你更應該反對到底，如果你立場一致的話啦！我是希望我們討論任何政策不要看顏色。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員育敏：真的就是依專業來評估，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員育敏：專業評估就會有一致性，不會因為是誰提出來而任意去更改。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員育敏：我希望賴總統這樣子講，要慎重地評估啊！兩個小孩比較合理，一個小孩就請一個移工，聽起來真的是不太合理，移工的量恐怕也沒那麼大，好好評估。"],["洪部長申翰：我們在整體評估中，包括相關的配套，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員發言。","請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da06df0d4ed7dd7c5027ea0d01a9ed952c2d78011594ec5757a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:43:13 - 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我們請部長"},{"start":15.607,"end":29.502,"text":"請部長好部長好部長我從書面報告裡面有指出說鄭麗君副院長他跟經貿談判辦公室的總談判代表9月底那已經跟商務部有進行了五輪的這個實體的磋商"},{"start":30.763,"end":52.48,"text":"那現在主要就是232條款跟這個供應鏈合作的部分持續在協商中那我是希望說再次提醒就是台美的經貿關係它不要成為產業間的零和的競逐因為我們當然是要替半導體跟高科技的產業來爭取我們最大利益但是也不可以犧牲農業跟這些弱勢的產業"},{"start":53.681,"end":79.413,"text":"我是希望說部長能夠在未來的你的這個總和外交裡面能不能夠包含以強帶弱的概念就是說我們很多優勢產業像是半導體的產業高科技產業這些產業鏈那我也看到這個部長很積極的出訪的時候都帶著這些產業鏈去參與那甚至是把一些經貿的這些工作也融合到外交的工作裡面但是這個部分有一點事情就是說"},{"start":80.433,"end":102.694,"text":"在這個傳統的產業上在農業上面我們看今年整體的經濟是往上走可是傳產農業他沒有跟著一起走那所以說我們與其一個產業走100步不如每一個產業都往前走一步所以這部分不知道部長有什麼樣的這個設計的藍圖對外交部的看法他的視野怎麼樣把我們以強帶弱想請教一下部長"},{"start":104.781,"end":126.374,"text":"報告委員陳玲玲講就是其實台美的這一次的關稅經貿談判可以用總和外交來做一個大戰略所以我們如果從那關稅好像就是零和可是如果涉及到投資那到底什麼產業是我們的優勢我們可以擴展"},{"start":127.506,"end":137.632,"text":"我們的供應鏈而不是說去移轉那另外就是美國他畢竟是最終端的消費市場以外他有很好的科技"},{"start":138.672,"end":160.281,"text":"人才跟資金所以我們怎麼樣為我所用這個也是打造所謂經濟日不落國除了價值外交以外當然是很重要理念相近可是經濟還有這些利益的一致這個就是台灣安全最大的保障也因此我們在談的時候我們的戰略目標是什麼不是陷入被動"},{"start":162.002,"end":178.784,"text":"好像他要一塊我們給五毛而是說更主動的去規劃那這裡面陳如玲提到了232條款他當然是基於國安然後企圖讓美國在工業化以外他也可以就是避免"},{"start":179.884,"end":196.857,"text":"在供應鏈上可能就是受制於了所以這個時候我們跟他可以扮演一個合作甚至合資的角色那因此從半導體產業我覺得從供應鏈的合作去看怎麼樣對台灣有利另外因為半導體產業又帶動最近這個人工智慧"},{"start":197.737,"end":219.571,"text":"包括BOOST是AI CHIPS、AI SERVER、AI DATA CENTER、AI ROBOTICS甚至AI FACTORY這一個是台灣的強項比如以伺服器來講它是做我們AI計算必備的而台灣有最先進的技術跟我們量產的能力所以這個時候我們把美國當作一個市場也好"},{"start":220.271,"end":227.338,"text":"當作我們一個就是說避免我們因為出口而造成的貿易的逆差而可能會影響他們對我們的這些要求提高關稅"},{"start":235.43,"end":258.743,"text":"我們這個佈局到底是怎樣對台灣最有利我們應該有一個戰略的目標所以誠如委員提到的那我們也跟美國談你要做到這些那你必須讓台灣的企業能夠服務他們比如說所謂的科學園區或者所謂智慧科技園區那這個也不是說就能夠移過去因為涉及到法令"},{"start":259.639,"end":282.634,"text":"土地 水電還有非常多的行政服務包括單一窗口我想委員很清楚所以我們是有know-how的這個know-how是值錢的我們可以跟他一起參與來投資嘛投資科學園區的開發這個也就是台美聯合艦隊其實我五月已經率電電工會還有八大工協會到了德州要打造所謂台灣Tower"},{"start":283.414,"end":308.924,"text":"作為team of teams也就是在德州從我們現在電電工會的所謂電子七哥每一個都增加投資而且未來的三年啊幾乎是指數性的成長為什麼 供不應求因為比如說stargate五千億美金他就需要我們的AI server而且我們還不是試試賣AI server或AI chipsAI data center我們整個未來的營運我們如果能夠提供這個服務"},{"start":311.587,"end":323.023,"text":"那我們的關係 甚至我們怎麼樣去變成一個 joint venture 合資的關係這才是把台灣跟美國的利益能夠綁在一起而且這個是對美國來講"},{"start":330.475,"end":341.552,"text":"美國優先但台灣也優先我覺得是國家戰略或總和外交是我自己是這半年多來雖然我不是在談判的第一線但是我都跟談判團隊密切的聯繫"},{"start":344.13,"end":369.23,"text":"谢谢部长这个你的这个外交的这个战略报告是很完整的我大概可以理解到说就是除了因应其实美国政府的这一个变化那我们也做好我们相对的这一些政策那过去就如同你刚刚提到的我们是讲价值但是现在价值之外我们还要加值加值的意思就是要让我们的利害是一致的"},{"start":369.79,"end":397.873,"text":"所以剛才你提到的說包含Server還有一些其他的這些高科技的產品我相信這些都是有注意的不過我也有注意到就是不管是在國內外很多我們跟這個外交部也好或者是國防部也好他們的相關的這些智庫他們主要辦的論壇都還是直接跟這一個半導體相關那我覺得這很好這是我國的充滿這個最國際的產業鏈裡面很重要的一環"},{"start":398.553,"end":425.649,"text":"但是我們台灣除了這些高科技產業還有傳統產業高度精密的機械園區這些機械的這些工業也是傳產的一些種性所以如果未來我們可以在這些智庫裡面也提到說除了這一個半導體是不可或缺之外我們的加工我們的這些傳產它同時也是在這個CP值也是非常高的那剛才提到的合資的這個部分那我們當然也是要鼓勵美國也來台灣"},{"start":426.469,"end":444.83,"text":"因为当然我们都知道说现在美方就是一直希望说我们把我们的这些相关的产业来移到美国去但是其实我们也必须要说服美国就是说在这个台湾台湾国内我们的国内实际上是有很多的产业它是CP值是高的它可以用更低的这一个"},{"start":446.991,"end":472.62,"text":"這個消耗來去達到更高的產值我想這部分儘管說我們當然知道現在的美國政府它的這個屬性可能跟過去的這個拜登政府不太一樣但我們還是要持續嘗試去努力所以部長想請教一下因為美方新版的這個國防戰略報告據傳啦據傳還沒有確定它是說本土跟西半球可能會成為首要要應對的層級"},{"start":474.341,"end":490.454,"text":"那這個部分我還是希望說部長在這樣的戰略重心他們萬一這樣調整的話那我們的跟美方之間的協調那就很重要了我覺得我們要強調一個根本就是說我們的安全他是不止他是依賴不只依賴一方的善意"},{"start":490.834,"end":509.387,"text":"所以我們剛剛講到總和外交裡面就是除了美國之外我們對歐洲對任何在印太有利害關係的國家我們都要加強對他們的這些之間的這些關聯性還有加強跟這些印太國家在印太有利害的不見得是身處在印太的國家比方說法國他雖然是在歐洲但是他其實在"},{"start":510.909,"end":521.565,"text":"這個太平洋上都甚至有他的屬地在所以他也是印太國家那所以這個部分我是想要請教一下部長你的戰略在針對萬一他們的重心做調整之外我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":522.977,"end":541.837,"text":"報告委員其實經過這快一年來的整個發展我們已經比較清楚川普政府他的一個不管是安全或者是國防的戰略因為他現在有兩個最重要的報告我們都密切注意一個是美國的這個整個國家安全的戰略另外一個是國防"},{"start":543.899,"end":558.534,"text":"方面的戰略也陸續有透露一些方向所以以您提到的美國國防戰略的報告來講我想印太還是最重要那台灣是一個不可或缺的夥伴那這個時候怎麼樣來加強因為中國的威權擴張要"},{"start":560.248,"end":571.62,"text":"跨過第一島鏈去太平洋要去抗衡美國所以我們的角色已經不是說兩岸關係我們是相看在整個印太第一島鏈所以從雙邊到小多邊所謂網格狀的安全的架構小多邊"},{"start":576.665,"end":591.55,"text":"小多邊 比如說我們當然除了跟美國有台灣關係法我們跟周邊國家不管日本菲律賓澳紐這個都在交織成各種我們想安全的韌性是不能太脆弱嘛我們都只靠台灣關係法跟電網一樣分散式電網跟電網一樣分散式電網一個latest work就是一個比較"},{"start":598.092,"end":621.04,"text":"交疊在一起的這種所謂的小多邊關係比如說那美國也在建構美日韓啊美日飛啊那甚至就是說包括澳紐也都進來那台灣是不可或缺因為第一島鏈彼此相關只要中共飛機一起飛或者是說環台的時候那你可以想他的軍艦潛艇出入"},{"start":624.52,"end":652.916,"text":"第一島鏈就是宮古海峽跟巴士海峽嘛那一個在北邊日本一個在南邊菲律賓所以為什麼他們那麼重視這一個台海安全而且不能夠讓台海變成內海化都是基於他們國家利益所以我們要很瞭解美國的國家利益是什麼他的印太戰略為什麼他要把前沿部署能夠往前沿到關島包括對於日韓非這種串聯的各種演習很多那台灣也是不可或缺的一部分"},{"start":653.676,"end":673.704,"text":"謝謝部長部長我覺得今天你講的這個重點我最後做個總結就是小多邊這個概念我認為這是一個我們未來可以突破的這是操之在我們的那有些沒有辦法操之在我們自己的部分我們就盡量去影響但是操之在我們的小多邊這個部分我認為這是外交部跟我們的經濟部都可以一起來協助謝謝謝謝我們休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時43分）你好，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，從書面報告裡有指出鄭麗君副院長跟經貿談判辦公室的總談判代表，9月底已經跟商務部有進行了五輪的實體磋商，現在主要是232條款跟供應鏈合作持續在協商中。我是希望再次提醒，就是台美的經貿關係不要成為產業間的零和競逐，我們當然是要替半導體跟高科技的產業來爭取最大利益，但是也不可以犧牲農業跟這些弱勢的產業。我是希望部長能夠在未來你的「總合外交」裡能不能夠包含以強代弱的概念，就是我們很多優勢產業，像是半導體、高科技產業等這些產業鏈，我也看到部長很積極出訪的時候，都帶著這些產業鏈去參與，甚至把一些經貿的工作也融合到外交的工作裡。","但是在這部分有件事情就是，在傳統的產業上、在農業上，我們看今年整體的經濟是往上走，可是傳產、農業沒有跟著一起走，所以我們與其一個產業走一百步，不如每一個產業都往前走一步，針對這個部分，不知道部長有什麼樣的設計藍圖？以外交部的看法、視野，怎麼樣可以把我們以強代弱？想請教一下部長。"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，誠如您講的，其實台美這一次的關稅經貿談判，可以用總合外交來做一個大戰略，所以我們如果從關稅來看好像就是零和，可是如果涉及到投資，到底什麼產業是我們的優勢，我們可以擴展我們的供應鏈，而不是去移轉。另外，美國畢竟是最終端的消費市場以外，他有很好的科技、人才跟資金，所以怎麼樣為我所用，這個也是打造所謂經濟日不落國的關鍵。除了價值外交以外，當然很重要的是理念要相近，而經濟還有這些利益的一致，主要是台灣安全最大的保障，也因此我們在談的時候，我們的戰略目標是什麼，不是陷入被動，好像他要一塊我們給五毛，而是更主動地去規劃。這裡誠如您提到的232條款，當然是基於國安，企圖讓美國在工業化以外也可以避免在供應鏈上可能會受制於人，所以這個時候，我們跟他們可以扮演一個合作甚至合資的角色。因此，從半導體產業，我覺得從供應鏈的合作去看怎麼樣是對台灣有利。","另外，因為半導體產業又帶動最近的人工智慧，包括不只是AI chips、AI server、AI data center、AI robotics，甚至AI factory，這些是台灣的強項，譬如以伺服器來講，它是做AI計算必備的，而台灣有最先進的技術跟量產的能力，所以這個時候我們把美國當作一個市場也好，當作避免我們因為出口造成的貿易逆差，而可能會影響他們對我們的要求，像是提高關稅，這個布局到底是怎樣對台灣最有利，我們應該要有一個戰略的目標。所以誠如委員提到的，我們也跟美國談，要做到這些，必須讓台灣的企業能夠服務他們，比如所謂的科學園區或者智慧科技園區，這些也不是說就能夠移過去，因為涉及到法令、土地、水電，還有非常多的行政服務、包括單一窗口，我想委員很清楚，所以我們是有know-how的，這know-how是值錢的，我們可以跟他一起參與來投資科學園區的開發，這也就是台美聯合艦隊。","其實我5月已經率領電電公會還有八大工商協會到了德州，要打造所謂Taiwan Tower作為Team of Teams，也就是在德州，從我們現在電電公會的電子七哥，每一個都增加投資，而且未來的3年幾乎是指數性的成長，為什麼供不應求？因為比如Stargate 5,000億美金，就需要我們的AI server，而且我們還不只是賣AI server、AI chips、AI data center，我們整個未來的營運如果能夠提供這個服務，我們的關係、甚至我們怎麼樣變成一個joint 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很多"},{"start":158.052,"end":163.803,"text":"我說總TOTAL總TOTAL有多少我們會提供超過10個提供超過10個我們的態度是這樣"},{"start":167.145,"end":192.864,"text":"他留在台灣 那對我們來講的話事實上每一塊基地我們供應 台北市也在爭取 那我們新北也是在爭取啊所以我是問說那新北你提供幾個嗎 只要我們提供的我們經濟部認為都是第一名 都是最好的只是說輝達他有他的這個考量 我們也尊重那17 18有解嗎這個我就不知道了 你不知道"},{"start":194.071,"end":223.147,"text":"所以這個是地方政府的事情嘛 跟經濟部沒有關係經濟部只負責說17 18沒有要提供備案給 給回答就對了那再請教一下這一個部長齁這個昨天總統有講這個好消息有關關稅的啦他說這一個經貿的談判呢會有很好的進展所以呢會降低暫行關稅20%而且不疊加232條例相關的這個關稅朝最惠國待遇方向努力"},{"start":224.178,"end":233.741,"text":"都正確吧對 我們是往這個方向來努力 沒有錯不是啊 那有沒有確定啊因為總統我看他是講得很有信心啊是不是 已經大概確定了"},{"start":234.602,"end":262.54,"text":"不是 你要有最後的這個總結會議以後才是算確定對 那現在那現在就這個談判如果是進度是百分之百的話那現在到底到幾%80%還是90%應該差不多90%了到90%了對對對 就是技術性的談判大致上那應該都確定了嘛是 但是沒有那我就以總統講的為準啊因為到90%因為接下來就是細節了嘛 對不對"},{"start":263.581,"end":290.739,"text":"接下來就是要總結會議所以大概就是總統講的這個方向嘛 對不對那這樣是好消息啊是 我們努力啦 我們努力好 那最後喔 主席那個 我上禮拜有問這個國防部 顧部長就是說啊 這個烏克蘭總統卓恩斯基他有講到說我們有這一個台灣的廠商他說是有提供不曉得是什麼樣的零件"},{"start":291.839,"end":305.415,"text":"然後呢 給俄羅斯 給他們做成的這個飛彈然後國防部說要跟你們經濟部了解 後來有了解嗎有嗎我請那個 我們貿易署的有沒有 這件事情 這很嚴重因為這是總統親自講的喔"},{"start":308.451,"end":330.585,"text":"烏克蘭總統這個卓恩斯基他親自講的有沒有去調查 這很嚴重耶那顧部長說會跟你們討論有沒有 沒有這個同仁跟我講國防部還沒有跟我們聯絡這個齁 這個不行這樣子我覺得你要把這件事情當作一個很嚴重的事情來看那我們主動跟他聯絡 跟國防部聯絡好了對啊 這件事情一個禮拜給我一個結果好不好好 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請主席長還有阮市長請陳主席長還有阮市長委員好今天討論這個一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款剛剛王世堅 王委員質詢完"},{"start":48.324,"end":70.027,"text":"這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的如果套用王世堅的那個歌這本來應該是匆匆容容可以游刃有意要討論的啊結果現在行政院把他搞得變成是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話昨天財政部邀了各個地方政府"},{"start":72.765,"end":95.692,"text":"美企也說是協調可是看起來好像就是地方政府一定要接受的市長我看了你們昨天的一個講話你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少"},{"start":97.205,"end":116.653,"text":"事實上你們昨天都在討論的是各個縣市之間的這個水平分配現在問題不在那裡嘛財化崴最重要精神是什麼就是以前的錢 中央集權嘛我一直在強調好的財政就是像不倒翁下面一定是要過的結果不是我們剛好是倒三角形"},{"start":118.007,"end":138.632,"text":"頭重腳輕所以就出現很多地方自治沒辦法推動很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做所以才修了財化法財化的精神就是把中央的拿的太多的錢要下放給地方嘛你昨天開會應該是要討論中央要落實財化法把該有的四千多億落實下放給地方結果不是你們去討論說各個縣市要怎麼分"},{"start":140.012,"end":165.708,"text":"搞錯重點 第二個是更嚴重的目前我發現一個非常離譜的事情你們現在行政院好像變成土房地了你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐還在喊窮你們還在從地方挖錢這是財化法本來修正完下放地方是4100多億 對不對結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的你們是以修辦法你們從地方又搶了2646億回去"},{"start":171.096,"end":189.045,"text":"搶了三分之二我們給大家清楚看一下中央這次要到地方的錢一個是統籌款一個是一般補助款一個是計劃型補助款現在最嚴重的計劃型的補助款今年2954億你們大到一砍砍到剩下308你們總會這樣子"},{"start":200.84,"end":219.985,"text":"這個地方很多施政怎麼做等一下我進一步來講這個是影響影響到一般民眾最基礎的這個需求影響到我們很多的基礎建設了第二個影響也是很大的你把一般性的這個補助款你竟然要變成是要去做審查我先問你一下8月28號"},{"start":228.246,"end":255.22,"text":"朝野協商的時候就發現說你們竟然做了這麼離譜的這個事情因為一般性的補助款很多都是法定預算嘛法定的義務支出嘛包括那個薪資啊什麼退伍那些你怎麼可能要去審查呢所以那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在喔你看那個文這個文是不只是通過喔總統府公告的喔好要求行政院"},{"start":256.724,"end":281.787,"text":"不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨包括我三長簽名我簽起來的柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宇都在上面你現在怎麼樣 你是打臉柯建銘他們三長打臉總統府嗎怎麼可以做這樣的事情好啦 更嚴重的 你看右下角"},{"start":283.083,"end":302.278,"text":"你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉是什麼教育部分的有659億全部都砍喔這裡面要做什麼基本的教育人員的辦事費營養午餐水電冷氣退伏支出限職的待遇調整這錢怎麼能砍呢第二個"},{"start":309.217,"end":324.684,"text":"蘇進清一 砍了24億 他要做什麼河川的清一跟蘇進10億內政部下水道14億現在紅台低天災那麼多如果因為你把這個錢砍掉 要出了狀況你良心會安嗎"},{"start":327.048,"end":345.787,"text":"一般型的補助款怎麼可以這樣改這樣砍呢你這個等於是辦法已經凌越了整個財化法當初的修正啊而且你是打臉了整個朝鮮協商的結論打臉了總統府接下來看更嚴重的計劃型補助款你砍了這2646億這多嚴重的事情桃園市直接跟你講"},{"start":353.117,"end":362.54,"text":"他們桃園力推的珍珠海岸計畫被砍了以後還有校園的無障礙這個補助被砍了以後這全部都出狀況了然後台中市60億本來明年要給人家的60億的藍線的這個捷運砍到整家1.6億然後基隆跟彰化縣長跟這個縣長他們跑出來講說"},{"start":383.028,"end":411.841,"text":"這次如果本來立法院通過這個財務法修正本來他們的地方的經費是增加的結果你知道裡面乾坤大農以下像這個土匪這樣像土房廳這樣亂砍砍到後來他們的計畫型的這個他們這整個收入啊欸搞不好比財務法修正以前還要少欸連立營我給你看一個連你們民進黨的而且你以前服務過的你長久在台南服務的連台南的財政稅務局都在說啊"},{"start":414.431,"end":426.139,"text":"他說拜託中央我們有很多計劃型的這個補助款是已經實施多年他是一個跨年度的他說不要減要不然的話連台南的這個水利建設都受影響耶主委長跟次長我今天執行一畫面我要提醒幾個第一個現在問題不在不在縣市之間的這個移動是垂直"},{"start":443.41,"end":460.944,"text":"而且是財化法本來的精神請回到你該給的錢要給地方你不要像土匪 像土房地你又搶回去了2000多億你現在就搶回去三分之二而且我今天很明確跟你講它已經影響了治水的這個問題教育的問題 薪資的問題基礎建設的這個問題各個縣市政府都出來 拜託了"},{"start":465.663,"end":479.469,"text":"拜託你們你們這段時間不要一直在搶錢萬一天災來了你連治水的錢都砍掉了良心何在小孩子的營養午餐被你們砍掉了你疑心何忍"},{"start":480.768,"end":507.691,"text":"好不好 回過頭去想因為115年預算的籌備是很困難的那我們當初去檢也是不得已所以我們本身是把原來一般性補助和計畫性補助都是屬於縣市應辦的事項所以我們把一些它屬於基本它應辦的事項歸給縣市然後把一些屬於需要中央政策引導性的部分來繼續編列而且我們還簡化"},{"start":508.632,"end":522.674,"text":"你現在就是坐在金山上面在裝乞丐啦中央政府這麼有錢中央政府現在目前的總預算一年光是一年三兆欸歷年來最有錢的明年還變到三兆一千億欸"},{"start":524.209,"end":541.314,"text":"你當主機人也那麼久我跑預算新聞那麼久我們以前的預算中央政府兩兆就不得了了短短這幾年攀升到三兆了你這麼有錢你是大富豪我們的地方政府要嘛小康要嘛就小平跟赤平"},{"start":542.54,"end":557.805,"text":"就好不容易 財化法過了 錢要下放了可以落實地方自治 可以照顧地方建設 照顧地方的人民你又 乾坤大樓又去搶錢 搶了兩千多億回去不是 我乾坤大樓要搶 妳現在裝窮不是 事實上是 第一個我再給妳看一個 來 主席我再給妳看一個專業的數據"},{"start":559.565,"end":572.547,"text":"民國八十八年 你看我的圖民國八十八年的時候 金手之前中央政府佔所有稅數是多少六十點一到現在 經過財務法你如果四千多億都下放"},{"start":574.023,"end":597.932,"text":"4000多億都下放 還有65.6比以前多的比例 比例仔細看還多耶絕對仔細看3兆多耶你都是一個大富翁耶 你現在一直喊窮報告委員 這裡面包含整個政府11%的業務馬英九 陳水扁都不要實施那個整個業務都沒辦法推動了人家1兆多 2兆多都實施得好好的你3兆多結果還在裝乞丐"},{"start":599.451,"end":615.477,"text":"主委長你是不是都用書面答覆好不好好不好 最重要我剛剛講的最重要 對 我一句話就好最重要的不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多該給地方的 你不能夠2900多億 砍了2600多億砍掉十分之九"},{"start":620.356,"end":636.115,"text":"那這個影響的是地方很多很多的這個建設我剛講的然後一般性補助款你怎麼可以把它變成是審查這兩個趕快改回來 謝謝好 處理長你要 你的答覆就這個書面去答覆好了OK 謝謝三委員接下來我們請書記"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時6分）謝謝主席，請主計長和阮次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長和阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天討論一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款，王世堅王委員剛剛質詢完，這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的，如果套用王世堅的那首歌，這本來應該是可以從從容容、游刃有餘來討論的，結果現在行政院把它搞得變成是匆匆忙忙、連滾帶爬，甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話。","昨天財政部邀各地方政府，美其名說是協調，可是看起來好像就是要地方政府一定要接受。次長，我看了你們昨天的講話，你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少，事實上你們昨天都在討論各縣市之間的水平分配，現在問題不是在那裡嘛，財劃法最重要的精神是什麼？就是以前的錢是中央集權。我一直在強調，好的財政就像不倒翁，下面一定是要夠的，結果不是這樣，我們的財政剛好是倒三角形，頭重腳輕，所以就出現很多地方自治沒有辦法推動，很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做，所以才修了財劃法，財劃法的精神就是要把中央拿得太多的錢下放給地方嘛。你昨天開會應該是討論中央要落實財劃法，把該有的四千多億落實下放給地方，結果不是，你們去討論各縣市要怎麼分，搞錯重點。","第二個是更嚴重的問題，目前我發現了一個非常離譜的事情，現在行政院好像變成土皇帝了，你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐，還在喊窮，你們還在從地方挖錢，這次財劃法本來修正完以後下放地方的錢是四千一百多億，對不對？結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的問題，你們自己修辦法，你們又從地方搶了2,646億回去，搶了三分之二耶！來，我們給大家清楚看一下，中央這次向地方要到的錢，一個是統籌款，一個是一般補助款，一個是計畫型補助款，現在最嚴重的問題是，計畫型補助款今年是2,954億，你們大刀一砍，砍到剩下308億，你們怎麼可以這樣子呢？地方很多施政要怎麼做？等一下我會進一步來講，這個影響到一般民眾最基礎的需求，影響到很多基礎建設。第二個影響也是很大的，一般性的補助款竟然變成要審查。主計長，我先問你一下，8月28日朝野協商的時候我們就發現你們竟然做了這麼離譜的事情，因為一般性補助款很多都是法定預算嘛，法定的義務支出嘛，包括薪資、退輔那一些，怎麼可能要去審查呢？那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在，你看，這個文不只是通過，還是總統府公告的喔！要求行政院不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制，上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨的三長簽名，包括我在內，三長都有簽名，我簽了，民進黨的柯建銘、吳思瑤、陳培瑜的簽名都在上面，你現在是怎麼樣？你是打臉柯建銘他們三長，打臉總統府嗎？怎麼可以做這樣的事情？更嚴重的是，你看，你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉，砍掉的是什麼？教育部分的有659億，全部都砍了，這部分要做什麼？基本教育人員的辦事費、營養午餐的費用、水電費、冷氣、退輔支出、現職的待遇調整，這個錢怎麼能砍呢？","再來，疏濬清淤砍了24億，這些錢是做什麼的？河川的清淤和疏濬，經費是10億元，內政部下水道的經費是14億元，現在颱風、天災那麼多，如果因為你把這個錢砍掉而又出了狀況，你良心會安嗎？一般型補助款怎麼可以這樣改、這樣砍呢？你這個等於是辦法已經逾越了整個財劃法當初的修正了啊，而且你是打臉了整個朝野協商的結論耶！打臉了總統耶！","來，接下來看更嚴重的，計畫型補助款你砍了2,646億，這多嚴重的事情！桃園市直接跟你講，他們桃園力推「珍珠海岸計畫」被砍了，還有校園無障礙設施的補助被砍了，全部都出狀況了。本來明年要給臺中市捷運補助60億元，砍到只給1.6億。基隆縣長跟彰化縣長跑出來講說，本來立法院通過財劃法修正，他們地方的經費是增加的，結果乾坤大挪移，行政院像土匪一樣，像土皇帝一樣亂砍，砍到後來，地方計畫型補助的收入搞不好比財劃法修正以前還要少耶！我給你看一個，連你們民進黨的，而且是你以前服務過的地方，你長久在臺南服務，連臺南的財政稅務局都說，拜託中央，他們有很多計畫型補助款是用在已經實施多年的計畫，是跨年度的計畫，他們希望不要減少，要不然的話，連臺南的水利建設都受影響耶！主計長跟次長，我今天質詢，一方面我要提醒幾個事情，第一個，現在問題不在縣市之間的水平分配，而是垂直分配，而且財劃法本來的精神就是該給地方的錢要給地方，中央不要像土匪，不要像土皇帝，又搶回去了兩千多億，現在是搶回去三分之二，而且我今天很明確地跟你講，這件事已經影響了地方治水的問題、教育的問題、薪資的問題、基礎建設的問題，各縣市政府都出來拜託了，拜託你們這段時間不要只有一直搶錢，我剛說過，萬一天災來了，你連治水的錢都砍掉了，良心何在？小孩子的營養午餐費被你們砍掉了，你於心何忍？好不好？回過頭去想一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為115年預算的籌編是很困難的，我們當初減也是不得已，原來一般性補助和計畫型補助都是屬於縣市應辦的事項，我們把一些基本上屬於應辦的事項回歸給縣市，然後把一些需要中央政策引導性的部分繼續編列，而且我們還簡化整個計畫型補助申請的……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在就是坐在金山上面裝乞丐！中央政府這麼有錢，中央政府目前的總預算光是一年就有三兆，是歷年來最有錢的，明年還編到3兆1,000億耶！你當主計人員那麼久，我跑預算新聞那麼久，以前中央政府的預算兩兆就不得了了，短短這幾年攀升到三兆了，你這麼有錢，你是大富豪，我們的地方政府要嘛是小康，要嘛是小貧，要嘛是赤貧，好不容易財劃法過了，錢要下放了，可以落實地方自治，可以照顧地方建設、照顧地方的人民，你又要使出乾坤大挪移，去搶錢，搶了兩千多億回去。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是我乾坤大挪移要搶……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在裝窮！主計長，我再給你看一個專業的數據。"],["陳主計長淑姿：它實質上會超過公債款的補助……"],["張委員啓楷：民國88年的時候，中央政府分配到的統籌款是多少？占60.1%。到現在，經過財劃法修正，如果四千多億都下放，還有65.6%，比例比以前還多，以絕對值去看是三兆多耶！你是一個大富翁耶！你現在一直在喊窮如果照你這樣，我跟你講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這裡面包含省政府11%的業務……"],["張委員啓楷：以前蔡英文、馬英九、陳水扁時期都不要實施，難道整個業務都沒辦法推動了？人家預算一兆多、兩兆多都實施得好好的，你預算有三兆多，結果還一直在裝乞丐。"],["主席：主計長，你都用書面答復，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：OK。啓楷，後面的部分請他用書面答復。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉、抱歉，我說最重要的一句話就好了。最重要的是，不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多，該給地方的，你不能夠兩千九百多億砍了兩千六百多億，砍掉十分之九，這個影響的是地方很多很多的建設，如我剛剛講的，然後一般性補助款，你怎麼可以把它變成是審查？這兩個趕快去改回來。謝謝。"],["主席：主計長，你就用書面去答復好了。","OK。謝謝張委員。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","請何欣純委員，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","請高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},{"id":"164597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dab3611c6a7149680a82630fd8ea06a5362d78011594ec5757c0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:55:07 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不好意思 我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都詢答結束為止請莊委員謝謝昭偉 我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好 委員好副秘書長好"},{"start":25.13,"end":50.749,"text":"在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種"},{"start":52.948,"end":66.718,"text":"這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道負面或者聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 招了"},{"start":76.766,"end":103.3,"text":"然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把他給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去"},{"start":108.031,"end":121.495,"text":"威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判"},{"start":136.906,"end":156.441,"text":"判你死刑就是死刑了但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判"},{"start":156.981,"end":172.489,"text":"公平的一個審判那公平的審判其實就是要看說這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合這個事實在這個過程裡面到底是符不符合法律的正當程序我要特別提醒我們刑訴訴訟法379條那個判決當然違背法令379條那個14款裡面講得那麼清楚如果說把它定性成說公開播送就是直播"},{"start":184.375,"end":195.013,"text":"那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令"},{"start":196.294,"end":216.443,"text":"如果按照民眾的講法是 你這個人可惡 你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵 哪怕有刑求 哪怕有人偽證但是發明 最後發現 嘿 剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已 都不可以啊"},{"start":217.635,"end":223.117,"text":"我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心"},{"start":236.603,"end":253.083,"text":"從國外或者說我們的大法官裡面我們也都去肯認民眾本來就想有向法案提起事實審判的一個請求權而且包括聽審公正程序跟公開審判的一個請求權跟程序上的一個平等公開審理有一個好處就是說"},{"start":255.236,"end":284.096,"text":"大眾他也滿足他知的權利那藉這個審理的過程裡面讓整個法治的教育也可以提升那公開社會當然也就會對司法比較信任那如果說你把公開審理到最後你把它導成是一個變成是一個直播而不是它的核心價值是公平審判的話我記得在我們在審的過程裡面我講得很清楚"},{"start":285.171,"end":311.577,"text":"大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人"},{"start":313.154,"end":331.97,"text":"那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊 因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件 三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也虧空的事情 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪 所以被告的辯護權 他本身的權益更特別要去保障他 為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候 一個案件落後 這個A"},{"start":339.226,"end":359.257,"text":"可不可惡很可惡啊他去殺人啊可是當年很多警察辦案是你殺了一個人你一定殺了很多人那乾脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果殺了一個人你判他死刑合理啊但他殺一個人你判他三個死刑判他殺三個死刑刑事案件都是他幹的全部栽給他"},{"start":360.798,"end":382.571,"text":"为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组织法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚了你让他去公开播送"},{"start":384.006,"end":406.043,"text":"這個當然法就有爭議那本席當初是想說沒關係尤其是法律省尤其是做社會重大矚目的一個案件那這一些少事法 家事法庭制裁這個部分只要這個部分把它做一個排除的話那是好事那也是我們去召開的公聽會以後學者專家大家認為說有疑慮"},{"start":408.044,"end":429.964,"text":"立法院不能這樣亂搞不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈把他先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候大家也講得很清楚大家要的其實也不是直播就是要整個公開播送而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法"},{"start":431.656,"end":441.896,"text":"司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且"},{"start":443.26,"end":465.55,"text":"法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播"},{"start":466.91,"end":493.085,"text":"這個本席表達反對啦那我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝那個委員剛才那個很精闢的那個論述我們司法行政呢其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在那個促進跟維護那個審判的那個公正就是委員說那個公平那個審判那所以呢"},{"start":494.125,"end":508.647,"text":"公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看嘛那所以呢我們避免就是說"},{"start":509.668,"end":537.851,"text":"在立法過程中大家所的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢"},{"start":538.371,"end":564.011,"text":"我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後"},{"start":564.631,"end":582.764,"text":"就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送"},{"start":583.683,"end":610.118,"text":"不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後嘛那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講"},{"start":613.174,"end":635.681,"text":"老百姓覺得很爽好爽喔 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事啦那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次啊有幾個問題啊要來就教副秘書長的就是說"},{"start":639.706,"end":662.524,"text":"我們在看這一次精神衛生法的一個參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理"},{"start":665.206,"end":694.395,"text":"那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级名人就要上路了嘛名人就要上路了但是呢有几个问题啊我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审"},{"start":694.855,"end":721.956,"text":"那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟"},{"start":722.396,"end":728.179,"text":"因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多這期間以來都有跟"},{"start":744.768,"end":767.632,"text":"衛福部相關部會就是做這個跨部會的協調跟那個訂定那個執法那硬體方面的就是有新的那個法庭的建構跟那個資訊系統那這些我想就是時間關係我就不詳細說那至於委員所關心的這個呢就是沒錯就是法官跟那個意見都需要有那個賠利就是對於這個新制度所以我們辦了很多"},{"start":768.192,"end":790.943,"text":"那個跨領域合作的這個社區共事營那還有就是工作坊也就是說這個共事那個賠利啦就是對於相關的這一些我們的那個法官啊還有那個醫界跟那個心理專家還有社工的這些那個領域專家就是做這個那個共事那個賠利那另外呢就是對於推廣這樣子那個制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的這個社區共事營來做這個社會溝通"},{"start":796.209,"end":803.235,"text":"我比較擔心的是什麼你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來 依法官的習性法官就是"},{"start":804.915,"end":827.405,"text":"這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題 要送去病院你像比如說 你精神衛生法裡面第七十條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人 沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人 並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題 你代理人的希望說不要去"},{"start":829.738,"end":856.318,"text":"不要去賓夷啦就老師說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去啦那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置啦那老師就跟你說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回覆來 廳長"},{"start":859.44,"end":882.935,"text":"謝謝委員的催省這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候"},{"start":884.676,"end":902.148,"text":"緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在"},{"start":903.088,"end":913.155,"text":"精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論、共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些收集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告"},{"start":931.32,"end":959.916,"text":"其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊改建的一個工程的一個進度啊像這一些啊都要再去"},{"start":960.736,"end":984.238,"text":"夾把勁啦 畢竟喔 這個 這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊啦這塊以前不是你們的部委啦 但問題是法官也不是上帝啦那以現在來看的話 精神衛生法 它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法 必須要那麼多的一個團體 還有跨部會"},{"start":984.895,"end":999.585,"text":"那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時55分）謝謝召委。有請司法院王副秘書長以及刑事廳李廳長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘好。我剛剛在辦公室以及議場聆聽了很多委員的意見，實在有很多的感慨。到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播，這個都有討論的空間。我覺得很感慨的是關於司法的進程，從過去那種威權時代，大家很喜歡看戲，尤其追劇的時候，過去我常看包公，不知道副秘或者廳長有沒有聽過或看過？包公看到刑案一發生以後，他就派人出去把嫌犯抓過來，抓過來以後自己當檢察官就開始問了。如果王朝、馬漢把嫌犯抓來以後他都不講，那麼三十大板一打下去就招了，然後包公自己又當法官把他給判下去了。當初收視率很高，民眾看得很爽，民眾會覺得這是正義的聲張，可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽的那種制度卻被全世界揚棄了？因為人類變文明了。","我們今天要談公開播送的時候，我有很大的感慨。從過去威權時代那種一個人可以扮演警察、又可以扮演檢察官、又可以扮演法官的角色，就是因為要去制約這樣的權力，所以後來才會要求應該要公開審理。為什麼要公開審理？它的相對就是秘密審判，秘密審判太可怕了！過去極權時代或者皇權的時候，好多都是秘密審判，判你死刑就是死刑。就公開審理而言，憲法裡面一直在講……你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面，憲法也沒有去講公開審理，但從老百姓的訴訟權應該可以導出：老百姓有訴訟權的話，就是要公平的審判。公平的審判其實就是要看這個案子判下來以後有沒有符合事實，在這個過程裡面，到底符不符合法律的正當程序。我要特別提醒，刑事訴訟法第三百七十九條所規範的判決當然違背法令，第三百七十九條那十四款裡面講得那麼清楚，如果把它定性成公開播送就是直播，那開什麼玩笑？任何一件你沒有去公開直播的話，那最高法院就忙死了，每一個案件都是判決違背法令。如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡、你這個人該死，哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵、哪怕有刑求、哪怕有人偽證，但是最後發現剛好事實都是真的，只是審判過程違法而已，那都不可以啊！其實我們已經變成是一個文明的國家。我先講結論再來推論，公開審理是憲法的權利，主要目的是保障被告的公平審判，這不是為了滿足群眾的好奇心，不管是國外或者是我們的大法官也都去肯認。民眾本來就享有向法院提起事實審判的請求權，而且包括聽審、公正程序及公開審判的請求權與程序上的平等。公開審理有一個好處，就是大眾滿足他知的權利，藉由審理的過程，讓整個法治的教育可以提升；藉由公開，社會當然也就會對司法比較信任。如果你把公開審理到最後導成是直播，而不是其核心價值是公平審判的話……我記得審查的過程當中我講得很清楚，大家也都討論過，你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的壓力，這對於整個事實的發現或者真相的發現，其實都是一種障礙。像我們當辯護人的、當律師的，只要一直播的話，碰到這種直播，有一造去當被告的辯護人，那也要承受很大的壓力，大家會獵巫啊！像那種殺人的案件，你也敢去當人家的律師？像性侵那麼可惡的事情，你也敢去當人家的律師？就是因為重罪，所以被告的辯護權，他本身的權益更特別要去保障他，為什麼？怕凸槌嘛！你看以前有時候案件發生之後，那個A可不可惡？很可惡，他去殺人啊！可是當年很多警察辦案是認為他已經殺了一個人，那他就一定殺了很多人，乾脆所有的案子都放到他身上去。他如果殺了一個人，你判他死刑合理；但他殺一個人，你判他三個死刑，說三件刑事案件都是他幹的，全部栽給他？這其實是為了滿足民眾，說這個人好可惡、要判死刑，他該被判死刑。可是他如果只殺一個，你不應該說他殺三個人。","我就非常的感慨，所以本席反而必須要來還原，當初我們在審法院組織法的時候，這個過程大家都很清楚，你讓他去公開播送，這個在法界當然有爭議。本席當初是想說、沒關係啦，尤其是法律審，尤其是受社會重大矚目的案件，只要少事法庭、家事法庭、智財法庭把這個部分排除的話，那是好事。其實那也是我們召開公聽會以後，學者專家大家認為有疑慮：立法院不能這樣亂搞、不能這樣民粹修法，所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈第一個先把它拆解掉了。","黨團協商的時候，大家也講得很清楚，大家要的其實也不是直播，就是要整個公開播送，而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後播送，我反而是肯認這樣的做法。對於司法，我最擔心的就是到最後淪為政治上的競技場，直播對當事人未必是好事，我倒不認為法官會被獵巫，那個是反射的不利益，但是畢竟整個法院是為人民而存在，進步的我們當然要採取，可是你現在貿然說公開播送就等於直播？這個本席表達反對。以這樣的推論，還有剛剛其他委員的批評，不曉得副秘書長有什麼看法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：首先感謝委員剛才很精闢的論述。關於司法行政，其實我們從來做每件事情的主旨都是在促進與維護審判的公正，也就是委員所說的公平審判。所以公播它可能是一個目的，如果它會促進公平審判的話。可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的，不是說今天大家開庭就是為了播送給大家看，所以我們為了避免在立法過程中大家所提及的疑慮，也就是你一邊開一邊播。現在是自媒體時代，每個人都可以在播的時候寫評論，所以可能就會有上萬則評論說應該怎麼樣、怎麼樣，這些東西會回饋到訴訟者的表現，還有我們最擔心的是這些所謂的輿論公審會影響到判決。因此我們保持了公播的目的，就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形，讓它透明化，我們維持了這個目的，但是又避免審判時個資、隱私的干擾，還有最重要是會影響到判決的公正性，所以把它放在宣判了之後，就是把它還原、把它播出，因此我們做了這樣子的設計。"],["莊委員瑞雄：讓法院越透明，其實這是好事。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：而且讓民眾增加對司法的信賴，其實那都可以理解，但是我認為公開播送不等於公開直播，而且事後播送還是一樣把整個法庭的活動公開，只是不涉及到隱私的部分，並讓民眾知道，其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明！否則的話，如果全部都是用即時直播這樣的方式，其實只有老百姓覺得很爽這樣而已，民眾會覺得：好爽喔，你看法庭上的活動就是這樣！然後大家開始來評論，我不認為這對當事人是一件好事。","我接下來要請教的是，針對這一次精神衛生法的規定有幾個問題要來就教副秘書長。我們看這一次精神衛生法與參審制度有關的部分，不曉得司法院針對這部分到底準備好了沒有？對於專家參審的法庭制度，由職業法官、醫療專家及病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行審理，我們在2022年12月14號三讀修正通過以後，對司法院來講是一個很大的變革，其實對於司法審查制度也是全面的升級，明年就要上路了嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是有幾個問題我必須提出來。面對這樣跨專業制度的轉型，法官可能會碰到很多新的問題，比如現在法官獨審變成參審，跟其他兩位參審員分配訊問的部分你怎麼處理？或者說醫界跟法界之間專業的隔閡，你如何在短時間裡面讓法官快速釐清案情並做出裁定？所以我要請教司法院的就是對於這個即將上路的制度，我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備及因應措施？比如教育的訓練、專業的資源、諮詢的制度，這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實與品質，我不曉得副秘書長你的看法如何？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員關心，首先是有關於專家參審的新制，我們要做的措施非常多。這段期間以來都有跟衛福部等相關部會進行跨部會協調並訂定子法，在硬體方面也有新的法庭建構及資訊系統，因為時間關係，這些我就不詳細說明了。至於委員所關心的這個問題，沒有錯，法官和醫界對於這項新制度都需要有培力，所以我們辦了很多跨領域合作的社區共識營及工作坊，這也就是共識培力，亦即對於相關的法官、醫界、心理、社工等領域的專家進行共識培力。另外，對於推廣這樣的制度，我們跟一般的民眾對話，也辦了很多的社區共識營來做社會溝通。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較擔心的是什麼呢？比如過去法官並沒有參與這一塊，你現在把法官納進來，依法官的習性，法官就是認為如果有涉及到類似強制處分的問題，就要把人送去醫院。依照精神衛生法第七十條的規定，針對嚴重病患沒有代理人的部分，法院應該選任律師擔任代理人，並且指派程序監理人。這就碰到一個問題了，如果代理人希望病患不要去醫院，也就是律師說不要去，但程序監理人卻認為他應該送到醫院去，這時候法官要怎麼裁定？法官看到律師與程序代理人意見相左的時候怎麼辦？程序監理人認為已經達到強制住院的標準，應該進行保護性的處置，但律師認為不要去醫院對當事人比較好，這時候法官要怎麼做出裁定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這部分我讓廳長來回復。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：謝謝委員的垂詢。這部分我們陸續一直在開針對專家參審與職業法官、法扶律師的會議，目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法扶律師進去，一旦聲請到法院來審理要不要強制住院的時候，視為緊急安置繼續中，所以我們已經跟法扶取得共識，這時候由法扶律師繼續來法庭進行陳述及維護病人的權益。關於法扶律師及程序監理人，現在由幾個公會推出來在精神醫院執業過的這些心理師、社工師，我們都一起有非常多的討論共識，模擬法庭了十三次，都有讓他們來做溝通練習，還有做評議的練習。我們去觀察，然後把這些蒐集以後，現在正在訂定審理相關準則及評議規則，然後讓它能夠落實專業、溝通並達成實際的效果，以上報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們要做的倒不是只有新的審理程序，其實更重要的是讓病人跟家屬都可以安心。除了法官這樣的訓練與模擬法庭之外，我也期待司法院要更去加強的部分，比如參審法庭空間的規劃、設備的設置、改建工程的進度，像這些都要再去加把勁，畢竟司法過去並沒有參與到這一塊！這一塊以前不是你們在處理的！問題在於法官也不是上帝，以現在來看的話，精神衛生法這樣子的規定是一個進步的修法，必須要有那麼多的團體參與而且還有跨部會，到最後為了讓法官來把關，讓司法的密度提升，除了人員的訓練以外，你也必須把這些當成是未來司法的一部分，該加強的部分還是要去建置，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供之相關資料或以書面答復者，請司法院儘速送交個別委員及司委會。","賴惠員委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄、刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},{"id":"164596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da23f0aebd2aa4c88ce072f7c27276b8ae2d78011594ec5757b63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:04:50 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謝謝主席請司法院王滬密行政廳的吳廳長司法廳的 行事廳的李廳長好 委員早安我看起來啊滬密越來越漂亮兩位廳長啊越來越帥但是就跟我感覺到很奇怪"},{"start":40.034,"end":53.139,"text":"我要了解的從頭早上到現在我要了解什麼叫做直播什麼叫做輪播來吳廷長什麼叫做直播"},{"start":56.206,"end":71.592,"text":"跟委員報告所謂的直播就是說就像我們現在在談的內容目前在外面馬上就播出這個叫做直播那如果這個播出的內容不是即時播出而有延遲或延後播出呢那就是非直播"},{"start":73.054,"end":90.666,"text":"對啦吳廷長你明明都知道可是為什麼立法院在6月27號通過的法院組織法部分條文修改的時候本來就是直播"},{"start":91.809,"end":113.345,"text":"後面技巧性的問題授權由司法院去研擬這就是尊重司法院我們同意你技巧性你去閃避我們要尊重耶但是你把直播變成事後的這些轉播就不對了"},{"start":114.912,"end":129.045,"text":"王滬密真的這個就不對了那個法院組織法所通過的是公播是公開那個播送他沒有用直播今天我們要上國文課是不是"},{"start":130.475,"end":155.432,"text":"今天要上國文課是不是什麼叫做公播那你公播就可以拖到拖到幾天以後明明就是要直播就是說在判決之後播這本來也是各國立法常見的一種播放的形態不要在那邊狡辯啦 王滬密我還稱讚你外表漂亮 內心真的很醜陋"},{"start":157.823,"end":167.735,"text":"包委員我們司法院我們所做所想的那請問一下我們都是為了要維持一個公平的一個審判什麼叫做公平"},{"start":168.826,"end":192.893,"text":"什麼叫做公平 直播就是直播 全世界各國 直播當然就是開庭那開庭直播的時候 說實在的 有什麼秘密可言檢察官起訴以後 那這裡面的條文 又更何況裡面充分只有兩個要素可以直播一 社會矚目 二 重大議案"},{"start":193.593,"end":221.932,"text":"一被告可以申請最後的權利是由法官來採你看看立法院多麼尊重司法院那你們為什麼一定要硬拗明明是直播你們就要事後來播放這個跟整個邏輯是不通跟整個立法研議完全背道而止王烏蜜我知道"},{"start":222.913,"end":228.405,"text":"我不曉得你們在怕什麼直播有什麼好怕呢現在不是直播主一大堆嗎"},{"start":230.031,"end":258.974,"text":"你不呈現只是你們在組織法管理法庭管理辦法裡面不可以直播那你們就可以去變通方式可以讓有心合備可以讓他直播這也算是另外一種直播可是你們這個部分你們也不要可是我們立法研議本來就是要及時直播讓全民去看到我常講過啦真的啦"},{"start":260.373,"end":279.505,"text":"心裡無鬼 心裡無邪 不怕鬼你不知道在怕什麼所以台灣民眾黨一直主張今天逐波的並非只有針對特殊案件而是這是兩個要素最後還是要你們來裁"},{"start":281.407,"end":308.63,"text":"這種東西都已經達到這整個司法獨立尊重的情況之下王滬密麥克奧麥克奧所以我坦白講當然因為張祺凱他說媒體人出身我是從基層出身老百姓都一直在問要我問這個什麼叫做直播什麼叫做轉播這些東西不要再怕 下一張"},{"start":309.755,"end":332.858,"text":"不要再怕所以我是覺得我還是鼓勵這是有一個制度可循也就是讓你們充分去設定一個非常完美的這些直播的制度可是你把它搞成事後來播放這個叫什麼 紀錄片的轉播"},{"start":334.059,"end":340.432,"text":"所以 王蜂蜜 我說實在台灣民眾黨非常堅持跟國際 接下來"},{"start":341.994,"end":370.452,"text":"跟國際歧視要接軌剛剛張旗開委員已經講得很清楚在落後的國家他們都已經在直播了所以我還是希望王滬密吳廷長還有我們李廷長刑事案件有可能社會矚目重大議案有可能被告願意來申請直播可是最後權還是法官你們不知道在怕什麼"},{"start":371.567,"end":376.794,"text":"我一個代表老百姓跟你們質疑就是心內沒啥"},{"start":378.683,"end":402.291,"text":"不怕鬼 只要坦淡淡 公平審判 公開透明我看你們在那邊怕什麼嘛現在直播一大堆 講快一點你今天只是 今天馬上轉播給全民來看跟你整理以後 再來播送給人民看"},{"start":403.396,"end":430.656,"text":"看起來似乎都是一樣但是完全不一樣因為你事後播放就可以加裝但是你直播你法官你檢察官有所政績成功在庭上這本來就是公開的東西啊你們現在不是有聆聽法庭嗎有延伸法庭嗎那為什麼不能直播所以我真的蠻建議啊我們"},{"start":432.207,"end":456.04,"text":"這個王滬密在這個部分我還是希望你們要重新再修改立法院這麼尊重司法院我不希望司法院瞧不起立法研友這一點我要拜託兩位廳長還有我們這個王滬密這裡要重新再來考慮我說實在"},{"start":457.12,"end":467.71,"text":"報告委員我們是非常尊重立法院的那有關於就是說我們我們不覺得啦有關於我們這個實事辦法其實每個委員的看法也都不見得那個一致"},{"start":468.433,"end":488.72,"text":"那沒有關係啊你們繼續啊我跟你講你們繼續啊做半套不如不做但是直播就直播怎麼會是事後轉播這種東西是違背國際違背立法之精神所以我以重心長給你一個好的建議真的"},{"start":490.21,"end":517.943,"text":"這個直播是未來國際之歧視更何況重要重要的這個法律程序跟事實的程序這個部分是要有形式重大社會矚目的案件才可以直播嘛不叫你每一個包括民視也來直播沒有嘛這就是社會矚目重大議題這才是直播所以我希望司法院"},{"start":518.703,"end":525.336,"text":"回頭是岸 趕快把好好的直播的制度辦法把它重新修改好 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謝主席 有請部長請部長"},{"start":15.758,"end":38.88,"text":"羅委員早部長早今天我們在審這個草案我想平台一年比一年賺那我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強我們外送員的報酬一年比一年低今天排審的總共有六個版本包含民眾黨國民黨以及各委員的版本我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來"},{"start":40.021,"end":68.931,"text":"這些法案當中我們看到大家還有很多委員積極在連署但是大家聚焦在一個點就是外送員的權益裡面沒有政治的語言政治的立場都是希望基本保障就是外送員的權益我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了面對外送員專法我們現在看到勞動部的報告我只有一個字要送給部長部長這個字很簡單就是拖"},{"start":70.219,"end":91.301,"text":"我們到底在脫什麼勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣外送員的平台被停權了被剝奪了怎麼辦脫現在外送員面對片面的降低了報酬怎麼辦脫面對整個要立專法的聲音勞動部的態度怎麼辦脫"},{"start":92.942,"end":121.11,"text":"所以我要跟大家講今天勞動部報告第5頁我們看到裡面寫的能夠兼顧各方權益尚需透過跨部會的分工聆聽各方意見促成整個權益性的調整精進部長你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識勞動部面對外送員專法的一個態度就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊"},{"start":122.489,"end":137.175,"text":"面對老寶年輕的態度是什麼持續收集各方意見尋求共識兩者哪裡不一樣文字上不一樣語意都一樣都是在脫自覺面對一切不想面對的問題"},{"start":139.929,"end":162.737,"text":"簡單來講今天要不是廖瑋祥召委台審今天要不是我們今天未還有這樣子的一個態度召委有這樣的決心我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話要立專法我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情外送員在等勞動部拖您知道拖多久嗎"},{"start":164.414,"end":180.712,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題其實在我上任以後我到勞動部以後我們其實就來檢視其實相關的法規包括指引其實我們也認為其實我想這個我們的同仁很清楚"},{"start":181.332,"end":201.028,"text":"其實我們當時覺得恐怕是我們需要往法治化的方向來走所以這幾個月其實我們也很積極的跟外送的社群來去做討論來針對如果要法治化的話要放入哪些相關重要的權益還有這個條文應該怎麼設計所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了我想平台慢一天"},{"start":201.889,"end":228.476,"text":"立這個專法平台就多賺一天的錢外送員14萬人多一天就會多一天的被剝削我們到底拖了多久答案是6年11個月21天早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護的一個機制"},{"start":231.981,"end":258.536,"text":"終於啊終於到紅部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理那前面的部長到底在幹嘛那這幾年到底在幹嘛我們在等什麼等了6年的辛酸啊這6年被剝削了多少錢這6年這些平台賺了多少錢今天很高興聽到部長說會送願板但是部長你知道前面幾次外送工會會罷工你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":261.007,"end":286.623,"text":"一些權益上面被片面變更還有嗎包括一些應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題其實外送員要求立專法像勞動部在要求的時候勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法你知道嗎應該說過去的確是對於立專法是比較保留的所以部長你知道對吧"},{"start":289.892,"end":313.086,"text":"不好意思跟您請問一下就單單不要用點頭或者是側面的點頭這是什麼意思您知不知道就是過去過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面其實在整整體的立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚但我想我們現在是清楚的所以我想你就是知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法"},{"start":313.936,"end":340.958,"text":"那為什麼當初不要專法現在又要同意專法呢就連何佩珊部長喔當時我問她她都說她是個人立場支持而已所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多的時間為自己爭取一個最基本的維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴勞動部都看在眼裡但是沒有動作啊勞動部就是怠惰嘛這麼多年沒有作為誰要負這個責任部長您說呢"},{"start":342.85,"end":364.845,"text":"我想這個針對外送人的權益我想接下來朝野應該我們是可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作啦因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分那這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題我覺得我們可以做得很好所以我必須譴責勞動部過去這樣子就是拖嘛"},{"start":365.685,"end":384.171,"text":"說穿了就是脫為什麼相關的制度性的設計我們對於保障薪資對於停權透明之前不做這麼久了所以我一個關鍵的問題院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版"},{"start":385.307,"end":412.564,"text":"跟委員說明現在基本上行政部門的版本我們進入到最後收整的階段所以什麼時候其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制的作業那我們可能三個月三個月內三個月內我想外送員的一個薪資待遇接單率都是由平台的大數據來決定平台演算法決定了他的生死不像傳統計程車業者"},{"start":414.665,"end":440.529,"text":"有一個固定的模式針對演算法這樣的黑洞我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範您覺得呢我想其實我們對於外送員我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障或者是程序面的保障因為確實這裡面他也涉及到外送員跟平台之間的一些契約上面的問題"},{"start":441.269,"end":459.535,"text":"所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定包括一個這個契約該怎麼訂齁應該應記載不應記載事項應該在這裡面有一個更清楚的範定我想有些外送員是很積極的但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死再積極想接單都不一定有"},{"start":460.315,"end":474.863,"text":"這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資啊所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明演算法的部分也不能夠忘記啊我想我最後再表態一下我的立場我們"},{"start":475.943,"end":501.25,"text":"講真的我是重度使用者我們大家很多人都是重度使用者所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利但是這些外送員是在整個沒有保障的制度夾縫生存沒有制度沒有安全沒有最低報酬演算法來決定他們的生死所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們"},{"start":502.35,"end":513.127,"text":"我們現在看到這樣子沒有人來為他們的一個權利來做保障他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責"},{"start":515.199,"end":538.531,"text":"沒有平台決定了他的生死所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境下雨雨天上路夜間上路時時與交通事故為靈啊然後面對的是平台的停權平台的沒有理由平台的申訴機會都沒有所以我說勞動部你說是勞工的一個靠山沒有"},{"start":539.502,"end":567.702,"text":"那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他所以未來我們希望不只是給保險他的勞權能夠真正的被正視要有制度性的保障要有最低的報酬透明的停權機制要讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割變為有尊嚴受保障的一個勞動者這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來三個月內再麻煩加速好嗎"},{"start":568.82,"end":572.937,"text":"好謝謝羅廷維委員發言請王育民委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時51分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員早。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長早。今天我們在審這個草案，我想平台一年比一年賺，我們現在看到演算法一年比一年強，外送員的報酬一年比一年低，今天排審的總共有6個版本，包含民眾黨、國民黨以及各委員的版本，我們看到民進黨的黨團版本都進來，這些法案當中還有很多委員積極在連署，但是大家聚焦在一個點，就是外送員的權益，裡面沒有政治的語言、政治的立場，都是希望基本保障外送員的權益，我想連民進黨的黨團版本都送了，面對外送員專法，我們現在看到勞動部的報告，我只有一個字要送給部長，部長，這個字很簡單，就是「拖」，你們到底在拖什麼？勞動部現在的態度到底是怎麼樣？外送員的平台被停權了、被剝奪了，怎麼辦？拖！現在外送員面對片面降低了報酬怎麼辦？拖！面對整個要立專法的聲音，勞動部的態度怎麼辦？拖！","所以我要跟大家講，我們看到勞動部報告第5頁裡面寫的：「能夠兼顧各方權益，尚須透過跨部會的分工，聆聽各方意見，促成整個權益性的調整精進。」部長，你有沒有認為這句話有點似曾相識？勞動部面對外送員專法的態度，就跟面對勞保年金一樣啊！面對勞保年金的態度是什麼？持續蒐集各方意見，尋求共識。兩者哪裡不一樣？文字上不一樣，語意都一樣，都是在拖，拖字訣啊！面對一切不想面對的問題。簡單來講，今天要不是廖偉翔召委排審，要不是我們衛環有這樣的態度，召委有這樣的決心，我們有辦法去面對到您今天的一句話，要立專法，我想請部長回顧一下立專法這件事情，外送員在等勞動部拖，您知道拖多久嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我想我們其實沒有用拖的心態在處理這個問題，其實在我上任以後，我到勞動部以後，我們就來檢視相關的勞動法規，包括指引，我想我們的同仁很清楚，其實我們那時候覺得恐怕是需要往法制化的方向來走，所以這幾個月我們也很積極的跟外送社群來去做討論，針對如果要法制化的話，要放入哪些相關重要的權益，還有這個條文應該怎麼設計，所以這個部分我們其實已經進入到最後的階段了，所以並不是拖。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想慢一天立這個專法，平台就多賺一天的錢，十四萬多名外送員就會多被剝削一天，我們到底拖了多久？答案是6年11個月21天，早在2018年11月官方就有委外報告指出，應該要有外送員專法或者是類似彈性的勞動保護機制，終於到洪部長上任了才覺得應該要從法制面來處理，那前面的部長到底在幹嘛？這幾年到底在幹嘛？我們在等什麼？等了6年的心酸啊！這6年被剝削了多少錢？這6年這些平台賺了多少錢？今天很高興聽到部長說會送院版，但是部長你知道為什麼前面幾次外送工會會罷工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：一些權益被片面變更。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是包括一些報酬計算上面的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：其實外送員在向勞動部要求立專法的時候，勞動部從來都勸工會不要立專法，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該說過去的確對於立專法是比較保留的，但是當然我們現在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以部長你知道，對吧？不好意思，跟您請問一下，不要單單用點頭或者是側面的點頭，這是什麼意思？您知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：過去勞動部因為也在跟跨部會溝通的過程裡面，其實在整體立專法的政策方向還沒有那麼清楚，但我想我們現在是清楚的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我想你知道過去勞動部的態度就是不要立專法，那為什麼當初不要專法，現在又要同意專法？就連何佩珊部長，當時我問他，他都說他是個人立場支持而已，所以為何讓工會耗費了這麼多時間，為自己爭取最基本的、維持生活穩定的一點尊嚴，勞動部都看在眼裡，但是沒有動作，勞動部就是怠惰！這麼多年沒有作為，誰要負這個責任？部長您說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我想針對外送員的權益，接下來我們朝野應該可以好好的在這方面做出更多的合作，因為這個問題就像剛剛委員說的，其實在這裡面並沒有一個顏色的劃分，這是朝野或者是行政跟立法可以好好合作的問題，我覺得我們可以做得很好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我必須譴責勞動部，過去這樣子就是拖嘛！說穿了就是拖，為什麼相關制度性的設計，我們對於保障薪資、對於停權透明之前不做，這麼久了，所以我一個關鍵的問題，院版到底什麼時候會進來立法院？還是你乾脆告訴我民進黨黨團版本當院版？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在基本上行政部門的版本，我們進入到最後收整的階段……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以什麼時候？不好意思。"],["洪部長申翰：其實裡面涉及到一些跨部會的法制作業，我們可能3個月。"],["羅委員廷瑋：3個月內？"],["洪部長申翰：3個月內。"],["羅委員廷瑋：3個月內，我想外送員的薪資待遇、接單率，都是由平台的大數據來決定，平台演算法決定了他的生死，不像傳統計程車業者有一個固定的模式，針對演算法這樣的黑洞，我也希望勞動部應該要有所規範，您覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我想其實對於外送員，我覺得我們應該朝向要怎麼讓他有一些基本的保障，或者是程序面的保障，因為確實這裡面也涉及到外送員跟平台之間一些契約上面的問題，所以對於契約的規範其實我們應該也要來訂定，包括這個契約該怎麼訂，應記載不應記載事項應該在這邊有一個更清楚的範定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想有些外送員是很積極的，但演算法以及平台的態度決定了他的生死，再積極想接單都不一定有，這個部分就不夠讓這些勞動者有機會爭取更多他們想要爭取的薪資，所以我們希望在這個部分也要透明，演算法的部分也不能夠忘記。","我想我最後再表態一下我的立場，講真的，我是重度使用者，我們大家很多人都是重度使用者，所以外送員是在整個社會裡面撐起我們的生活便利，但是這些外送員是在沒有保障的制度下夾縫生存，沒有制度、沒有安全、沒有最低報酬，演算法來決定他們的生死，所以到底誰能夠來幫助到他們？我們現在看到這樣子，沒有人來為他們的權利來做保障，他們的下線通知誰能夠來為他們負責？沒有，平台決定了他的生死，所以外送員每天面對高風險的環境，下雨天上路、夜間上路，時時與交通事故為鄰，然後面對的是平台的停權、平台的沒有理由，平台的申訴機會都沒有，所以勞動部你說你是勞工的靠山？沒有，那些外送人員最需要的這座靠山今天沒有保障他，所以未來我們希望不只是給保險，他的勞權能夠真正地被正視，要有制度性的保障，要有最低的報酬及透明的停權機制，讓外送員脫離演算法的宰割，變為有尊嚴、受保障的勞動者，這個部分真的要拜託部長能夠硬起來，3個月內，再麻煩加速好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員發言。","請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長陳委員好部長好我們今天要討論外送員勞動權益保障法的草案我想先請教部長勞動部支不支持這樣子的勞權保障專法的制定"},{"start":46.481,"end":74.882,"text":"我们当然现在我们是支持要进一步的法治化也就是定专法好那就是一定要专法才能够保障到到这些外送员吗还是说我们现有的法令是不足无法保障到他们我们其实现在有定定的执法定定的指引包括跟交通部其实有定定的指引但当然定定专法能够处理到的面向"},{"start":76.407,"end":91.756,"text":"包括其實可能更廣泛或他的發酵也更強好謝謝那我們辦公室最近有盤點了一下就是近期外送員交通意外事故的統計資料後有發現幾個現象我們來看一下"},{"start":93.323,"end":121.331,"text":"目前最及時更新的是台北市更新到114年8月底意外件數的累積有達到661件外送員受傷的人數是336位新北市政府的最新統計他們是統計到6月份件數是52件受傷人數是68人台中市也統計到114年的第一劑"},{"start":123.351,"end":149.461,"text":"我們再回頭看看勞動部你們的食品平台外送員的勞動權益保障專區呢更新的日期是113年2月16號113年2月16號好像你們已經很久很久都沒有關心這一群17萬名的外送員了我不曉得針對這樣的日期部長有沒有什麼補充說明"},{"start":151.561,"end":166.372,"text":"跟村說明我並不是我沒有關其實我一直到近期都還跟外送人其實開了好幾次的會所以並不是當然我們可能資料更新可以更頻繁更更及時但是並不是我們沒有關係我我們這幾個月我自己就跟外送人真的"},{"start":167.193,"end":180.866,"text":"就討論了好幾次我相信部長絕對是有關心的啦但是你們的更新日期是離現在根本就是超過一年半以前這個就有點漏氣這個我們來加強"},{"start":183.922,"end":210.297,"text":"好那當然就是說關西斯王厚偉司長在114年3月14日呢他有主持了一個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台的第10次的會議那第9次的會議是在113年的12月13日那我想要請教一下下一次會議預計什麼時候召開然後要討論什麼樣的議題"},{"start":213.867,"end":234.437,"text":"是跟委員報告之前我們就想透過這樣的一個平台會議兩方可以大家來交換意見我們也開了非常多次雖然有得到一些成果但是後來慢慢發現工會也表達是說平台在那個會議中能夠承諾跟答應的事項越來越少因為我們談的事項越來越接近像報酬"},{"start":235.157,"end":261.531,"text":"像停權這個比較重大的一些事由那平台都保持一個保留跟拒絕的態度因為沒有任何的法律的工具所以後來我們大概的方向就是就不透過那個交換平台的方式來做一些會議所以以後就不開了我們現在目前是暫時然後想透過法治化的方式比較有明確的保障好那我想再請教一下現在各縣市外送員的公會總共成立了多少個"},{"start":264.98,"end":284.893,"text":"因為我們有統計因為外送員加入的工會有很多類型你說你們有統計還是沒有統計因為我們有統計的時候我們發現因為外送員加入的方式類型非常多我們沒有辦法就是列出哪一些是只有他會加入的因為有的是食品有的是商品有的是機車因為他可以加入工會有非常多種"},{"start":286.215,"end":301.75,"text":"並不代表說只是上面寫外送員有三個字的他才可以加入所以我們有統計過那個可以的工會也把那些工會呢放在我們的那個勞動部的網站上讓我們的外送員可以選擇去加入"},{"start":303.143,"end":316.469,"text":"所以你說的你要不要舉例一下外送員的公會我們在我們的網站上有就是有所有他們可以加入的外送的職業公會跟產業公會都有但你們列出來有幾個"},{"start":319.35,"end":336.304,"text":"我印象中大概有40到50个40到50个那现在就是说这四五十个的这个会员人数占实际从业人员的多少比是多少比跟文报其实因为这个数字在地方政府那我们后来发现这数字不完全是因为"},{"start":337.325,"end":354.326,"text":"兼職的他不會跑到職業公會去投保他平常白天有一份自己的正職工作所以統計出來那個會員人數有時候跟實際上從事外送的人員人數不見得那麼接近那我接下來要請教你這個問題就看你們"},{"start":355.967,"end":380.544,"text":"有沒有好好的統計喔就是在你們專區第一件事情就是要幫助外送員那如何界定這個承攬派遣僱傭的關係因為不同的關係有不同的這個權益保障所以目前的這些從業人員當中呢這三種就是不同關係的人數各是多少比例然後這些比例都是沒有爭議的嗎"},{"start":383.365,"end":404.004,"text":"其實外送員的勞動關係一直是在這裡面很特殊的一個源頭就是他到底屬於僱傭還是屬於承攬那當然平台會一直主張是承攬可是我們基本上現在我們也不會說他是一種單純的承攬所以甚至現在國外也有所謂的中間關係就是在僱傭跟承攬之間"},{"start":404.785,"end":430.185,"text":"所以的確我們覺得說以現在的狀況來說的話在僱傭跟承攬之間還有各種不同的看法我們比較主張的事情是把外送員該有的保障的權益用法制化的方式給定清楚比方說報酬的保障比方說停權然後這個契約中止的申訴的保障比方說保險的部分在裡面把它定清楚所以你現在沒有辦法算出就是他"},{"start":431.326,"end":448.437,"text":"的這個僱傭這三種的比例不是這比較不是一個計算或統計的問題因為他是直接大家在認定上就有都有不同的看法那我但是僱傭應該是比較清楚"},{"start":451.369,"end":462.786,"text":"確實有些外送員去法院訴訟法院的見解也不太一致我們倒是也沒有統計說現在屬於僱傭的外送員有多少人"},{"start":466.311,"end":486.538,"text":"好 沒關係 應該後續會再回頭討論檢查這個問題那同樣的道理 就是外送員的職業安全的問題勞動部事實上應該也都有所掌握那相較於113年 114年的交通意外件數你們了解的是增加還是減少"},{"start":490.186,"end":511.344,"text":"跟委員報告 如果是平台業者他接貨外送員他發生災害 向我們通報從110年的13人最多 逐年下降多少 113年的我們掌握是13個人死亡在執行外送的勤務當中到114年目前是5個人死亡"},{"start":517.483,"end":531.748,"text":"好但是我想那個交通意外應該不會只看死亡人數啦那全部的件數呢增加還是減少是呈現下降趨勢好的那他們上路前有做教育訓練嗎"},{"start":533.075,"end":554.893,"text":"有 現在都有要求 那我想我跟您分享一下就我昨天前天看到的情況那在從立法院回家的路上就是才看到那個外送員就是在那個視訊開著 邊開邊視訊我想這個是很危險的"},{"start":559.577,"end":587.586,"text":"要再麻煩你們加強一下這些訓練喔那我們盤點這個結果113年比較確實就是說相較於114年交通意外他確實的確是有減少那就是說這兩大平台目前喔就是看起來Full Panda的件數是比較少的但也有可能是因為"},{"start":589.473,"end":613.884,"text":"那個被買走的關係那另外就是說那個交通意外件件數的減少他有可能有可能是代表外送的這個需求減少那也有可能就是說也代表有可能就是外送的需求減少有可能是物價上漲了那因為這兩年外送食物的價格有沒有上漲部長應該很清楚因為剛"},{"start":614.784,"end":633.185,"text":"您刚主持最低工资审议我们的最低工资可以在2026年可以上涨3.18%跟物价上涨是有一定的关联所以我们从这个例子来看经济的因素跟职灾劳动权益跟劳动力的这个劳动市场流动性有相当大的关系"},{"start":636.368,"end":663.118,"text":"結論本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是要關心外送員的勞動權益之前呢對於這個經濟環境我們也要有相當的研究因此我們要就是說本席要建議你們啟動這個外送員勞動權益影響因子的調查與分析這個研究請你們要著手進行那掌握也比較各縣市的各縣市政府更多更重要的資訊作為你們這個政策規劃的參考"},{"start":664.588,"end":685.339,"text":"我想我們很願意聽剛才就是參考委員的意見對於外送員相關的權益尤其是包括安全上面的問題來進行一個調查研究的計畫那更進一步的更清楚的掌握那假設接下來我們要來協助外送員跟協助平台把這些工作做好的話測重的重點應該在哪裡我覺得我們很願意來做這個事情好謝謝謝謝陳營委員發言請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部長。"],["主席：請勞動部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我們今天要討論外送員勞動權益保障法草案，我想先請教部長，勞動部支不支持勞權保障專法的制定？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們是支持要進一步的法制化，也就是定專法。"],["陳委員瑩：好，一定要專法才能夠保障到這些外送員嗎？還是說我們現有的法令是不足，無法保障到他們？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實現在有訂定了指引，包括跟交通部有訂定指引，但當然訂定專法能夠處理到的面向其實可能更廣泛或它的法效也更強。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。我們辦公室最近有盤點了一下近期外送員交通意外事故的統計資料，有發現幾個現象，我們來看一下，目前最即時更新的是臺北市，更新到114年8月底，意外件數的累積有達到661件，外送員受傷的人數是336位；新北市政府的最新統計是到6月份，件數是52件，受傷人數是68人；臺中市也統計到114年第一季。我們再回頭看看勞動部，你們的食品平台外送員勞動權益保障專區更新的日期是113年2月16號，好像你們已經很久很久都沒有關心這一群17萬名的外送員了，我不曉得針對這樣的日期，部長有沒有什麼補充說明？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，並不是我們沒有關心，我一直到近期都還跟外送員其實開了好幾次會，所以並不是，當然我們可能資料更新可以更頻繁跟更即時，但是並不是我們沒有關心，這幾個月我自己跟外送員真的就討論了好幾次。"],["陳委員瑩：我相信部長絕對是有關心的啦！但是你們的更新日期離現在根本是超過一年半，這個就有點漏氣了。"],["洪部長申翰：這個我們來加強。"],["陳委員瑩：好。關係司王厚偉司長在114年3月14日有主持了一個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台第10次的會議，第9次的會議是在113年12月13日，我想要請教一下，下一次會議預計什麼時候召開？然後要討論什麼樣的議題？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，之前我們想透過這樣的一個平台會議，兩方可以來交換意見，我們也開了非常多次，雖然有得到一些成果，但是後來慢慢發現工會也表達，平台在那個會議中能夠承諾跟答應的事項越來越少，因為我們談的事項越來越接近像報酬、像停權等等比較重大的一些事由，平台都保持保留跟拒絕的態度，因為沒有任何的法律工具，所以後來我們大概的方向就是不透過交換平台的方式來做一些會議。"],["陳委員瑩：所以以後就不開了？"],["王司長厚偉：我們現在目前暫時想透過法制化的方式，比較有明確的保障。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想再請教一下，現在各縣市外送員的工會總共成立多少個？"],["王司長厚偉：我們有統計，因為外送員加入的工會有很多類型。"],["陳委員瑩：你說你們有統計還沒有統計？"],["王司長厚偉：有，我們有統計，因為我們發現外送員加入的方式、類型非常多，沒有辦法列出哪一些是只有他會加入的，有的是食品、有的是商品、有的是機車，他可以加入的工會非常多種，並不代表只有上面寫外送員3個字的他才可以加入，所以我們有統計過可以的工會，也把那些工會放在勞動部的網站上，讓外送員可以選擇去加入。"],["陳委員瑩：你要不要舉例一下外送員的工會……"],["王司長厚偉：我們的網站上有所有他們可以加入的，外送職業工會跟產業工會都有。"],["陳委員瑩：你們列出來的有幾個？"],["王司長厚偉：我印象中大概有40到50個。"],["陳委員瑩：這40、50個的會員人數占實際從業人員的多少比例？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，其實因為這個數字在地方政府，我們後來發現這數字不完全是……因為兼職的人不會跑到職業工會去投保，他平常白天有一份自己的正職工作，所以統計出來的會員人數有時候跟實際上從事外送的人員人數不見得那麼接近。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我接下來要請教你這個問題就看你們有沒有好好的統計，在你們專區第一件事情就是要幫助外送員，那如何界定承攬、派遣、僱傭的關係？因為不同的關係有不同的權益保障，所以目前的這些從業人員當中，這三種不同關係的人數各是多少比例？然後這些比例都是沒有爭議的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實外送員的勞動關係在這裡面一直是很特殊的一個源頭，它到底屬於僱傭還是屬於承攬，當然平台一直主張是承攬，可是基本上現在我們也不會說它是一種單純的承攬，甚至現在國外也有說所謂的中間關係，就是在僱用跟承攬之間，所以的確我們覺得以現在的狀況來說的話，在僱用跟承攬之間還有各種不同的看法，我們比較主張的事情是把外送員該有的保障權益用法制化的方式給定清楚，比方說報酬的保障、停權，然後契約終止申訴的保障、保險的部分，在裡面把它定清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在沒有辦法算出這三種的比例？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，跟委員說明，這比較不是一個計算或統計的問題，因為它是直接大家在認定上就都有不同的看法。"],["陳委員瑩：但是僱傭應該是比較清楚。"],["王司長厚偉：確實有些外送員去法院訴訟，法院見解也不太一致，我們倒是也沒有統計現在屬於僱傭的外送員有多少人。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，應該後續會再回頭討論檢查這個問題。同樣的道理，外送員職業安全的問題，勞動部事實上應該也都有所掌握，相較於113年、114年的交通意外件數，你們了解的是增加還是減少？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，如果是平台業者接獲外送員發生災害向我們通報，從110年13人最多，逐年下降到……"],["陳委員瑩：多少？113年的……"],["林署長毓堂：我們掌握是13個人在執行外送的勤務當中死亡，到114年目前是5個人死亡。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我想交通意外應該不會只看死亡人數啦！全部的件數呢？增加還是減少？"],["林署長毓堂：是呈現下降趨勢。"],["陳委員瑩：好的，那他們上路前有做教育訓練嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：有，現在都有要求，交通安全跟職業安全。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我跟您分享一下我昨天、前天看到的情況，在從立法院回家的路上，才看到外送員邊開邊視訊，我想這個是很危險的，所以要再麻煩你們加強一下這些訓練。我們盤點這個結果，相較於113年，114年交通意外確實的確是有減少，兩大平台目前看起來foodpanda的件數是比較少的，但是也有可能是因為被買走的關係。另外交通意外件數的減少有可能是代表外送的需求減少，也有可能是物價上漲了，這兩年外送食物的價格有沒有上漲部長應該很清楚，因為您剛剛主持最低工資審議，我們的最低工資在2026年可以上漲3.18%，跟物價上漲是有一定的關聯，所以我們從這個例子來看，經濟的因素跟職災勞動權益、勞動力的勞動市場流動性有相當大的關係。","結論，本席要在這裡建議勞動部，要關心外送員的勞動權益之前，對於經濟環境也要有相當的研究，因此本席要建議你們啟動外送員勞動權益影響因子的調查與分析，這個研究請你們要著手進行，掌握也比較各縣市政府更多更重要的資訊，作為你們這個政策規劃的參考。"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們很願意參考委員的意見，對於外送相關的權益，尤其是包括安全上面的問題來進行一個調查研究計畫，更進一步的、更清楚的掌握，假設接下來我們要來協助外送員跟協助平台把這些工作做好的話，側重的重點應該在哪裡，我覺得我們很願意來做這個事情。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員發言。請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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現在台美雙方在持續密切的聯繫當中在談有關包括半導體產業在內的供應鏈合作方案所以到現在還沒有談好"},{"start":80.894,"end":101.69,"text":"那在台灣模式這個部分的話我方是在這個跟由台灣佈局全球的總體戰略底下提出台灣的模式那包括第一個是由企業自主規劃到美國進行產業投資第二個是由政府來整合民間投資佈局增加對業者的金融支持第三個是透過台美政府G2G的合作來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境"},{"start":103.484,"end":118.483,"text":"所以現在就是談判辦公室就是說副院長提到的台灣聚落模式這個方案是有確定但是現在是最新的談判的進度是美國到底有沒有正面回覆台灣提出的方案呢"},{"start":120.155,"end":146.998,"text":"美方對我們的提案是感到興趣的那雙方也都是在這個美方對我方提出的台灣模式是有高度的興趣的那台美還是在就這個供應鏈的合作方案在跟美國商務部持續的磋商當中那我再請問一下就台灣聚落的模式真的可以為台灣創造出有別於日韓超過數千億美元的投資的心路嗎那要如何創造呢"},{"start":149.544,"end":167.595,"text":"是,向委員報告,就是說有關於這個我們的台灣模式它的原由一開始是因為我們台灣的這個科學園區的經營模式它是全球獨有的再加上我們台灣的許多的產業園區這個工業區等等那其他國家難以複製這樣園區的規劃、籌設還有經營模式"},{"start":171.317,"end":198.953,"text":"我國願意跟美國用透過政府跟政府的合作來創造有利產業聚落來形成的環境這樣也可以降低我國企業去單打獨鬥的這個成本跟風險所以我們是導入過去產業聚落以及科學園區的經驗來在這個談判裡面那耕留台灣還是我們談判的最高指導原則那我們的高科技產業的垂直供應鏈必須依照耕留台灣的原則來做全球佈局不是將產業外移"},{"start":200.68,"end":219.168,"text":"所以其實我為什麼今天要提出這樣的疑問和擔憂是因為目前關於台灣聚落這整個模式有一些學者上面非常的優先的指出台積電在台灣能夠高效的運作是靠的是緊密的聚落上中下游的供應鏈從設備材料商和客戶的聚落的集中才能在機器故障的時候馬上隨時的支援但問題是美國的土地範圍非常的大"},{"start":229.632,"end":233.214,"text":"產業環境分散根本沒有辦法在24小時內馬上隨時的配合經營的風險在台灣其實是高出許多的另外美國的勞動制度對工時其實他們要求的非常非常的嚴格台灣常見的責任制加班在美國可能會變成是強迫勞動"},{"start":247.702,"end":251.183,"text":"所以這樣會不會增加台商未來到美國投資帶來的訴訟的成本還有就是另外一個挑戰是投資的規模上面的落差美方是期望我們台灣在美建立有50%的產能估計大約要5000億美元的投資但台積電目前承諾投資只有1650億的美元雙方的差距非常的大即便建立了產業的聚落如何才能達到美方滿意的"},{"start":276.911,"end":278.654,"text":"規模呢不要到時候又犧牲了半導體然後讓台灣的產業被迫外移讓專業的人才外流那請問經濟部你怎麼樣看待這個擔憂和意見呢"},{"start":288.045,"end":314.543,"text":"跟文報告那個台灣的這個科學園區或是我們產業園區發展的經驗他是一個群聚的一個大家供應鏈合作的一個結果那我想現在台積電已經宣布1651的投資案未來他會有這個六個這個晶圓廠在會在這個美國所以也就是說需要這個有台積電的相關的供應鏈必須要在旁邊來服務這個台積電的這個相關的一些運作"},{"start":317.925,"end":346.647,"text":"他這個也是我們台灣科學園區成功的這個經驗所以未來可能會面臨到剛剛委員提到這些問題包括勞動力的這些問題或是說一些相關的這個美國相關的一些這個稅的這些問題的部分我想這個就是我們在跟美方在談判的過程裡面我們就是希望說政府對政府提供一些行政協力協助的這個部分那我想美方他們也有把這個部分列入考量"},{"start":347.938,"end":359.474,"text":"希望千萬不要發生台灣產業和人才被迫到美國發展然後一定會衝擊到台灣就業的市場和經濟發展所以我還是希望我們還是要以台灣的利益為優先考量好不好那請執密先回座繼續我要請教經濟部的次長"},{"start":367.13,"end":370.572,"text":"次長因為本席比較關心的是台美關稅中有關提高藥品關稅對我國的影響所以我想請教一下次長美國10月1號開始針對品牌和專利的藥品徵收100%的關稅藥品公司在美國設廠包括已經動工了還有正在施工的這些製藥廠才可以免除關稅那次長你知不知道美國其實是我國西藥製劑的最大的出口國"},{"start":391.767,"end":395.191,"text":"因為在2024年的生技產業白皮書上面寫是2023年從台灣出口到美國的藥品的金額就高達新台幣185億那請問次長就經濟部的了解和掌握台灣的藥品是否可能會因為這樣被科徵高關稅而失去了整個競爭的優勢"},{"start":410.847,"end":425.229,"text":"根本報告因為這個都還在美方都還在調查當中那他到底會課徵多少這個稅率這個我想等到我們這個看美國那邊這個評估了這個結果我們再來跟國人再做報告"},{"start":426.252,"end":429.894,"text":"所以其實像我認為政府應該每年出口美國上百億的國產的西藥其實要開始尋求外銷的市場像國產學名藥這些外銷可以協助本土廠商轉銷像東亞的東南亞的西南向的國家還是一些歐洲國家轉移市場還有烏俄戰爭之後全球其實那個時候發現一個很"},{"start":447.503,"end":450.304,"text":"嚴重的問題就是原料的整個供應的問題所以現在各國都在積極發展本土學民藥的產業所以也希望這一次可以政府的政策可以來扶植國內的學民藥的發展所以我想針對這方面次長目前國內藥廠的這些衝擊有影響嗎你有了解嗎還是你們有沒有研議怎麼樣的"},{"start":470.532,"end":497.438,"text":"措施跟委員報告這一次我們在這個韌性特別預算裡面本來就編列這個經濟部的部分大概460億當然就是會協助這些受衝擊的這個產業來提升競爭力然後分散市場那我們也當然協助我們國內的這個生技醫藥這些產業往這個不管在東南亞或是說我們到東北亞甚至到日本或是歐洲的地區我們去做一些這個展會"},{"start":500.701,"end":503.313,"text":"還有一些媒合會方面的一些活動"},{"start":505.049,"end":516.533,"text":"好所以還有一點就是比較也比較重要的就是藥證的取得時間是否有沒有考量整個鬆綁相關的法規可以協助藥界度過台美關稅貿易戰的這個欄關呢是這個跟衛福部共同研議討論嗎是這個部分我們也會來協助我們的那個國內的產業來做取證這個部分就法規的部分我我們也可以來協助"},{"start":530.698,"end":536.086,"text":"好謝謝那次長請回座我有請外交部林佳龍部長請部長喂好"},{"start":544.209,"end":547.751,"text":"部長好自從川普上任之後其實我們喊出美國再次偉大的口號核心戰略就是美國製造而美國利益優先本席有注意到美國媒體紐約時報在8月的時候美台的關係都是緊張中的標題有指出美國權益對台灣出口的半導體徵收了破壞性的關稅的可能性對台灣來說更大的威脅都是逼近的"},{"start":570.282,"end":576.668,"text":"那這是否表示台美的關係根本不是史上最好的呢因為紐約時報上面認為現在是關係異常的緊張啊因為我想請問部長一下就是你有沒有覺得美國對台灣的關係的態度非常的奇怪因為一方面說要保護台灣但是又要台灣拼命的編列了整個國防預算跟美國去買武器"},{"start":592.623,"end":596.665,"text":"然後一方面又希望台灣把經濟密賣的產業全部移到美國去讓人感覺台灣好像無形中都要被美國掏空了那我只想說請問部長你認為美國對台灣真正的態度的用意到底是什麼美國對台灣這樣所謂的他們所說說的好朋友是真心的還是虛情的還是假意的因為本席認為我國最需要的是美國對台政策的一致性否則川普"},{"start":620.638,"end":636.691,"text":"政府一方面在強調台灣戰略的重要性一方面又對台灣徵收高關稅而且最主要是把我們台灣最重要的產業護國神山我們都要雙手奉上請問這樣的做法真的是讓我非常的十分的擔憂所以我想請教部長你對這個有什麼看法報告委員如果從國際政治的本質就是實力這個所謂的"},{"start":648.34,"end":673.643,"text":"才能有和平嘛就是說其實所謂台美關係好不好我們要從台灣的國家利益跟美國國家利益以及之間的交集那我們要分層次來看去找出交集比如說台美之間有一個最底層的都是民主國家都有民意都有選舉所以彼此國民互相的這個認同包括就是我們對於這些民主自由人權的價值"},{"start":674.424,"end":681.449,"text":"這個是很深層很重要的並不是純粹就是現實的交易而已這個是一層第二個就是安全"},{"start":682.335,"end":704.48,"text":"因為當一個國家沒有了這個安全包括主權被併吞那你都沒有什麼國家利益所以台美之間在安全上是有很大的交集都面對要中國的擴張要挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序第三個我還想很重要就是我們的現實的利益在於經濟繁榮他們帶來人民的福祉這個如果找出交集啊"},{"start":705.12,"end":716.776,"text":"那利益一致 自然關係就很好可是人的關係不是只有利益就像我們彼此之間的關係我們講 如果說你愛不愛一個人是愛情"},{"start":719.541,"end":738.353,"text":"愛情啊很重要麵包也很重要因為你要吃得飽我們才能夠長期立志所以台美的關係要有愛情也要有麵包愛情就是理念相近這一個就是建立在民主法制的基礎另外一個就是我們利益一致那利益是要我們主動去找出跟美國一致的利益嘛"},{"start":739.053,"end":754.496,"text":"所以我們在談很多問題的時候一定要兩面都談要有同理心要換位思考去找出台美之間共同的利益然後堅持在我們共同的價值觀之上但是照我來看美國都是利益啊因為他需要台灣PD的國防預算啊其實他有他的長年的自由主義價值觀價值觀是很重要的"},{"start":763.157,"end":786.007,"text":"比如說美國的參眾兩院其實美國現在不是川普總統一個人決定外交政策是各種利害關係的競爭對外交政策的決定所以這個時候你看有些訊號感覺上有一點好像不一致可是如果你跑好地去把它分析其實台美的關係是好的那我們還要更好那我們要避免它不好"},{"start":786.997,"end":813.355,"text":"那因為中國是一個崛起的這個霸權他挑戰現有秩序那也挑戰到台灣也挑戰到美國啊所以我們怎麼樣跟美國有一個總和外交跟三鏈戰略就是在價值外交同盟外交跟經濟外交跟他鏈結在一起那符合彼此的利益這樣子外交關係就會很好好啦時間到了我還是期許外交部更加努力和美國建立更好的外交關係好我們會來努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時42分）謝謝主席。有請經貿談判辦公室執秘和經濟部次長。"],["主席：請經貿辦，還有經濟部次長就備詢台。"],["林委員憶君：這個月初也就是10月3日，有媒體報導台美關稅談判進入深水區，在五輪的磋商中，台灣數度向美國提出避免雙重課稅協定，行政院副院長鄭麗君在月初也在記者會上面說明，第五輪的磋商，台美共構的產業聚落有譜了，但因台灣的模式與日韓、歐盟還有直接投資美國不同，問題是第五輪的磋商雖已落幕了，但台美雙方供應鏈有關台灣聚落模式的合作，還有最重要的232條款調查，都涉及到台灣最重要的護國神山與半導體存活兩大議題，現在有共識了嗎？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：跟委員報告，現在台美雙方仍在持續密切聯繫當中，在談包括半導體產業在內的供應鏈合作方案。"],["林委員憶君：所以到現在還沒有談好？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：是。有關台灣模式的部分，我方是在根留台灣、布局全球的總體戰略底下提出台灣的模式。包括：第一個是由企業自主規劃到美國進行產業投資；第二個由政府整合民間投資布局，增加對業者的金融支持；第三個透過台美政府G2G的合作，來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境。"],["林委員憶君：所以現在談判辦公室說：副院長提到的台灣聚落模式這個方案是有確定，但最新的談判進度是美國到底有沒有正面回復台灣提出的方案呢？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：美方對我們的提案是感興趣的，也就是美方對我方提出的台灣模式是有高度興趣的，台灣也還在就供應鏈的合作方案跟美國商務部持續磋商中。"],["林委員憶君：我再請問一下，台灣聚落的模式真的可以為台灣創造出有別於日韓，超過數千億美元的投資新路嗎？要如何創造呢？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：是，向委員報告，關於台灣的模式，它的緣由一開始是因為我們台灣科學園區的經營模式是全球獨有，再加上台灣有許多的產業園區、工業區，其他國家難以複製這樣的園區規劃、籌設，還有經營模式。我國願意跟美國透過政府跟政府的合作，來創造有利產業聚落形成的環境，這樣也可以降低我國企業去單打獨鬥的這個成本跟風險，所以我們是導入過去產業聚落以及科學園區的經驗，在這個談判裡面，根留台灣還是我們談判的最高指導原則。我們高科技產業的垂直供應鏈，必須依照根留台灣的原則來做全球布局，而不是將產業外移。"],["林委員憶君：今天我為什麼要提出這樣的疑問和擔憂，是因為有學者對目前台灣聚落這整個模式，非常憂心的指出：台積電在台灣能夠高效的運作，靠的是緊密的聚落，上、中、下游的供應鏈，從設備、材料商，還有客戶聚落的集中，才能在機器故障的時候，馬上、隨時的支援；但問題是，美國土地範圍非常大，產業環境分散，根本沒有辦法在24小時內馬上隨時配合，經營風險比在台灣其實是高出許多。另外，美國的勞動制度對工時其實他們要求非常非常的嚴格，台灣常見的責任制加班，在美國可能會變成是強迫勞動，這樣會不會增加台商未來到美國投資所帶來的訴訟成本？還有另外一個挑戰，就是投資規模的落差，美方期望台灣在美建立50%的產能，估計大約要5千億美元的投資，但台積電目前承諾投資只有1,650億美元，雙方差距非常大，即便建立了產業聚落，如何才能達到美方滿意的規模？不要到時候又犧牲了半導體，然後讓台灣的產業被迫外移，讓專業的人才外流。請問經濟部怎麼樣看待這個擔憂和意見呢？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，台灣的科學園區或是產業園區發展的經驗，它是一個群聚也是供應鏈大家合作的結果。現在台積電已經宣布1,650億的投資案，未來它會有6個晶圓廠在美國，也就是說台積電相關的供應鏈必須要在旁邊服務台積電的一些運作，這個也是我們台灣科學園區成功的經驗，所以未來可能會面臨到委員剛剛提到的這些問題，包括勞動力的問題或是美國相關的一些稅的問題，這些都是我們在跟美方談判的過程裡面，希望能夠政府對政府提供一些行政協助的部分，我想美方他們也有把這個部分列入考量。"],["林委員憶君：希望千萬不要發生台灣產業和人才被迫到美國發展，一定會衝擊到台灣的就業市場和經濟發展，希望我們還是要以台灣的利益為優先考量，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：當然。"],["林委員憶君：請執秘先回座。因為本席比較關心的是台美關稅中，有關提高藥品關稅對我國的影響，我想請教經濟部次長，美國10月1日開始針對品牌和專利的藥品徵收100%的關稅，藥品公司在美國設廠，包括已經動工，還有正在施工的這些製藥廠才可以免除關稅。次長知不知道美國其實是我國西藥製劑的最大的出口國？因為在2024年的生技產業白皮書上面顯示，2023年從台灣出口到美國的藥品金額就高達新台幣185億。請問次長，就經濟部的了解和掌握，台灣的藥品是否會因為這樣被課徵高關稅，而失去了整個競爭的優勢？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這個部分美方都還在調查當中，他們到底會課徵多少稅率，我們要看美國那邊評估的結果如何，再來跟國人做報告。"],["林委員憶君：我認為政府應該為每年出口美國上百億的國產西藥開始尋求外銷市場。像國產學名藥這些外銷藥品，可以協助本土廠商轉銷東南亞、新南向的國家，或是一些歐洲國家，以轉移市場。還有烏俄戰爭之後，全球也發現到一個很嚴重的問題，就是原料的供應問題，所以現在各國都在積極發展本土學名藥的產業。我們希望這一次政府的政策可以來扶植國內學名藥的發展。請問次長，就這方面對國內藥廠所帶來的衝擊會有影響嗎？你們了解嗎？有沒有研議怎麼樣的措施？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這次我們在韌性特別預算裡面，經濟部的部分大概編列了460億，會協助這些受衝擊的產業提升競爭力，然後分散市場；我們當然也會協助國內的生技醫藥等產業，不管是往東南亞或是東北亞、日本或是歐洲地區去做一些展會，還有媒合會方面的活動。"],["林委員憶君：還有一點比較重要的，就是藥證的取得時間有沒有考量鬆綁相關的法規，以協助藥界度過台美關稅貿易戰的這個難關？可以跟衛福部共同研議討論嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是，就法規的部分，我們會協助國內的產業來做舉證。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。次長請回座。有請外交部林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。自從川普上任之後喊出美國再次偉大的口號，核心戰略就是美國製造、美國利益優先，本席也注意到美國媒體紐約時報在8月美台關係緊張的時候，曾標題有指出美國對台灣出口的半導體徵收了破壞性關稅的可能性，對台灣來說，更大的威脅都是逼近的，這是否也表示台美的關係根本不是史上最好的，因為紐約時報認為現在關係是異常的緊張！請問部長有沒有覺得美國對台灣關係的態度非常的奇怪？一方面說要保護台灣，但是又要台灣拼命編列國防預算，去跟美國買武器；另一方面又希望台灣把經濟命脈的產業全部移到美國，讓人感覺台灣無形中好像都要被美國掏空了。請問部長，你認為美國對台灣真正的態度、用意到底是什麼？美國說台灣是他們的好朋友，到底是真心的？虛情的？還是假意的？本席認為，我國最需要的是美國對台政策的一致性，否則川普政府一方面在強調台灣戰略的重要性，一方面又對台灣徵收高關稅，而且還要我們把台灣最重要的產業──護國神山雙手奉上，這樣的作法，真的是讓我非常的擔憂。所以我想請教部長對這個有什麼看法？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，如果從國際政治的本質，就是有實力才能有和平。台美關係好不好，我們要從台灣的國家利益跟美國國家利益以及之間的交集，分層次來看，去找出交集。比如台美之間有個最底層的，都是民主國家、都有民意、都有選舉，所以國民彼此互相的認同，包括我們對於民主自由人權的價值，這個是很深層、很重要的，並不純粹是現實的交易而已。這個是一層。第二就是安全，當一個國家沒有了安全，包括主權被併吞，那你就沒有什麼國家利益了。所以台美之間在安全上是有很大的交集，都面對到中國的擴張，要挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序；第三很重要的就是我們的現實利益，在於經濟繁榮能不能帶來人民的福祉，這部分如果找出交集，利益一致，自然關係就很好。可是人的關係不是只有利益，就像我們彼此之間的關係，我們講你愛不愛一個人是愛情，愛情很重要，麵包也很重要，因為你要吃得飽，我們才能夠長期利益一致。所以台美的關係要有愛情也要有麵包，愛情就是理念相近，這個是建立在民主法治的基礎上；另外一個就是我們利益一致，我們要主動去找出跟美國一致的利益。所以我們在談很多問題的時候，一定要兩面都談，要有同理心，要換位思考，找出台美之間共同利益，然後堅持在我們共同的價值觀之上。"],["林委員憶君：但是照我來看，美國都是利益啊！因為它需要台灣的軍事國防預算去買武器，我們的國防預算都編得那麼高……"],["林部長佳龍：美國的外交政策不完全建立在利益，其實它有它長年的自由主義，價值觀是很重要的。比如美國有參眾兩院，其實美國現在不是川普總統一個人決定外交政策，是各種利害關係的競爭，對外交政策的決定。所以有時候看到有些訊號感覺上好像有一點不一致，可是如果好好的去分析，其實台美關係是好的，但我們還要更好，也要避免它不好。因為中國是一個崛起的霸權，他們挑戰現有秩序，他們挑戰到台灣，也挑戰到美國。所以我們怎麼樣跟美國有一個總合外交跟三鏈戰略，就是在價值外交、同盟外交、經濟外交上跟他們鏈結在一起，符合彼此的利益，這樣外交關係就會很好。"],["林委員憶君：時間到了，我還是期許外交部更加努力，和美國建立更好的外交關係。"],["林部長佳龍：我們會來努力。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請吳思瑤、吳思瑤，吳思瑤委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有王定宇委員、沈伯洋委員、楊瓊瓔委員、林倩綺委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員有約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","賴惠員","林德福","黃國昌","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00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等你質詢"},{"start":48.295,"end":74.382,"text":"部长 卓院长他说10月底台美经贸谈判会达成协议今天已经是10月22号10月就已经要到底了这个协议的内容到底是什么呢是不是如我抛泡应上面看的赖金德总统所说的要降税率不叠加而且232条款的相关税金也能够得到最惠国的待遇是这样吗"},{"start":74.802,"end":88.205,"text":"你們能不能更具體的簡短的說明一下是或不是這個是都是目標你不要再講目標了是或不是還是到目前為止它還是一個秘密"},{"start":89.469,"end":105.004,"text":"這是我們努力的目標跟方向總統都已經說了啊 不疊加降稅率啊他不是目標 他只是已經說了你後面當然是目標 但是我想請問10月底已經到了 會不會是"},{"start":106.212,"end":132.471,"text":"你认为会不会是你要不要是不是时间上我没有办法你要不要是我们努力的方向是这三项没有错对降税你这样子的回应大家都清楚知道了那我们也不抱很大的期待那部长你也曾经说过要复制所谓的类科学园区要到美国是这样子吗类科学园区应该是我是"},{"start":133.376,"end":150.021,"text":"跟著人家講不是我講那所以這新聞不對樂於友邦分享經驗到美國設類科學園區分享經驗就是我們的產業群聚那這句話不是你講的主要我的意思他像是類科學園區這樣你不是這樣認為產業群聚"},{"start":152.93,"end":179.222,"text":"你不是這樣認為所以你不認為它是類科學園區所以這個是媒體誇大了是嗎如果要把它解釋成類科學園區我也沒有反對好那10月17號我們看一下副總統蕭美琴她在國際媒體專訪的時候她說我們已經承諾在美國進行投資不僅僅是台積電還包括廣大的生態系其他部分從供應商到設計商"},{"start":180.602,"end":196.982,"text":"乃至其他晶片製造公司而蕭副總統所說的那個廣大的半導體製造生態系和您剛剛所謂所說的要複製所謂的類科學園區到美國這是同一件事情嗎"},{"start":198.408,"end":222.331,"text":"報告委員 事實上生態系比這個科學園區裡面做的事情還要大是不是同一件事情不 範圍不一樣為什麼範圍不一樣因為科學園區基本上只有生產製造而已但是生態體系包括了剛剛提到的研發開始然後還有它的材料商 設備商甚至於到它下游的廠商跟客戶這個就是整個才是一個生態體系"},{"start":223.092,"end":226.453,"text":"那我要講的是是不是傳說中美國勒索我們的那一筆數千億美元的金額"},{"start":249.897,"end":257.042,"text":"包委員因為廠商的投資還是要廠商才能夠決定那你經濟部沒有想要去預估嗎你那麼可以不負責任的說不預估嗎所以部長我要跟您說的是不管你說的類科學園區或副總統他說的廣大的半導體製造生態系主要的產業主力的產業就是半導體產業跟資通產業"},{"start":277.296,"end":293.272,"text":"我相信你很清楚在場的委員們都很清楚可能有絕大部分的我們廣大的百姓不知道但是我們清楚的了解兩個產業佔台灣出口的七成而這七成以今年來說就是3500億"},{"start":295.894,"end":321.754,"text":"而七成的出口產業複製到美國生產以後這七成的出口產業在台灣就從此被消滅了當然不會啊當然不會啊你不要說不會你到時候離開了台灣誰負責任你不要說不會大家都清楚知道好 而且你不要在這邊跟我們辯解好不好因為他已經宣布11個廠了這是實際的事實啊"},{"start":325.66,"end":338.709,"text":"部長 我們中華民國的政府沒有做政策的決定這些人會過期嗎 不要在這邊再說了而我們台灣另外三層的傳統產業大家一直在講的傳統產業面對著美國的關稅壓力"},{"start":342.952,"end":350.235,"text":"而我們政府又要花人民的納稅前460億要去扶持他們這460億足夠嗎你看一下捷安特自行車這麼樣優質的產業美國他就予取予求隨意的扣押他們的產品而我們的傳統產業還會有生存的空間嗎我再強調一次半導體和支通產品佔台灣出口的七成"},{"start":372.705,"end":392.13,"text":"而這七成就是3500億一旦複製到美國之後台灣的高科技產業就空通化了你不要說不會而台灣產業在美國的關稅衝擊之下情況這麼險惡現在現在就算如賴清德總統他說的"},{"start":393.17,"end":405.6,"text":"爭取到更低的關稅又有什麼用根本就於師無補了嘛現在已經時間到了我的結論就是政府在我們的關稅談判之中簡直就是喪權辱國謝謝我們高經委員的詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時48分）謝謝召委，大家辛苦了。部長想上洗手間，是嗎？想休息一下是嗎？"],["主席：等你質詢。"],["高金委員素梅：好，OK！有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請龔部長，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：想要跟大家說明一下，在這邊質詢委員大概只有幾分鐘的時間，但是你們要非常清楚，這幾分鐘的時間是每一位公務人員必須要為人民負的責任，所以不要以為這幾分鐘質詢完畢，隨便答答了以後就可以過關了。不是！你們是公僕！提醒大家。","部長，卓院長說10月底臺美經貿談判會達成協議，今天已經是10月22號，10月就已經要到底了，這個協議的內容到底是什麼呢？是不是如我的PowerPoint上面看到的，就是賴清德總統所說「要降稅率，不疊加，而且232條款的相關稅金也能夠得到最惠國待遇」？是這樣嗎？你能不能更具體、簡短地說明一下？是或不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：這都是目標啊！總統講的，對啊！"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再講目標了，是或不是？還是到目前為止，它還是一個秘密？"],["龔部長明鑫：這是我們努力的目標跟方向，而且……"],["高金委員素梅：總統都已經說了啊！不疊加、降稅率，它不是目標，他已經說了，你後面當然是目標，但是我想請問，10月底已經到了，你認為會不會是？你要不要是？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是！時間上我沒有辦法……"],["高金委員素梅：你要不要是？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們努力的方向是這3項沒有錯！降稅、不疊加、232……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！你這樣的回應，大家都清楚知道了啦！那我們也不抱很大的期待。部長，你也曾經說過要到美國複製所謂的類科學園區，是這樣子嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：類科學園區應該是我跟著人家講，不是我講的。"],["高金委員素梅：所以這新聞不對？樂與友邦分享經驗，到美國設「類科學園區」。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，分享經驗，就是我們的產業群聚。"],["高金委員素梅：這句話不是你講的？"],["龔部長明鑫：主要我的意思是表達……"],["高金委員素梅：它像是類科學園區，你不是這樣認為？"],["龔部長明鑫：產業群聚。"],["高金委員素梅：你不是這樣認為？所以你不認為它是類科學園區？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果有人要把它解釋成……"],["高金委員素梅：所以這個是媒體誇大了，是嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果要把它解釋成類科學園區，我也沒有反對。"],["高金委員素梅：好。再來，10月17號副總統蕭美琴在國際媒體專訪的時候，他說：我們已經承諾在美國進行投資，不僅僅是台積電，還包括廣大的生態系其他部分，從供應商到設計商，乃至其他晶片製造公司。而蕭副總統所說的廣大的半導體製造生態系，和您剛剛所說的要複製所謂的類科學園區到美國，這是同一件事情嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，事實上生態系比這個科學園區裡面做的事情還比較大……"],["高金委員素梅：是不是同一件事情？"],["龔部長明鑫：範圍不一樣。"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼範圍不一樣？請說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為科學園區基本上只有生產製造而已，但是生態體系包括剛剛提到的，研發開始，還有它的材料商、設備商，甚至於到它下游的廠商跟客戶，這整個才是一個生態體系。"],["高金委員素梅：部長，不要再在這邊胡說八道……"],["龔部長明鑫：我哪有胡說八道！"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！不管你說的複製「類科學園區」，或者是副總統所說的投資廣大的半導體製造生態系，因為你是經濟部長，你要負責任地說，你們有沒有估算投資的金額？我要講的是，是不是傳說中美國勒索我們的那一筆數千億美元的金額？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為廠商的投資還是要廠商才能夠決定。"],["高金委員素梅：那你經濟部沒有想要去預估嗎？你那麼刻意不負責任地說不預估嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們是有盤點……"],["高金委員素梅：所以部長，我要跟您說的是，不管你說的類科學園區或副總統說的廣大的半導體製造生態系，主要、主力的產業就是半導體產業跟資通產業。我相信你很清楚，在場的委員們都很清楚，可能有絕大部分廣大的百姓不知道，但是我們清楚了解兩個產業占臺灣出口的7成，這7成以今年來說就是3,500億元，而7成的出口產業複製到美國生產，以後這7成的出口產業在臺灣就從此被消滅了……"],["龔部長明鑫：當然不會啊！怎麼會被消滅？"],["高金委員素梅：你不要說不會！你到時候離開臺灣，誰負責任？你不要說不會！大家都清楚知道……"],["龔部長明鑫：台積電持續在臺灣投資啊！"],["高金委員素梅：你不要在這邊跟我們辯解，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有！它已經宣布11個廠了，這是實際的事實啊！"],["高金委員素梅：部長，我們中華民國的政府沒有做政策的決定，這些人會過去嗎？不要再在這邊說了！臺灣另外3成的傳統產業，大家一直在講的傳統產業，面對著美國的關稅壓力，而我們政府又要花人民的納稅錢460億元要去扶持他們，這460億元足夠嗎？你看一下！捷安特自行車這麼優質的產業，美國它就予取予求，隨意地扣押他們的產品，那我們的傳統產業還會有生存的空間嗎？","我再強調一次，半導體和資通產品占臺灣出口的7成，而這7成就是3,500億元，一旦複製到美國之後，臺灣的高科技產業就空洞化了。你不要說不會！而臺灣產業在美國的關稅衝擊之下，情況這麼險惡，現在就算如賴清德總統說的爭取到更低的關稅，又有什麼用？根本就於事無補了嘛！","現在時間已經到了，我的結論就是：政府在我們的關稅談判之中，簡直就是喪權辱國！"],["主席：謝謝高金委員的詢答，謝謝龔部長。","因為中午時間我們不休息，會延長開到今天的議程處理完畢，現在休息3分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時55分）","繼續開會（11時58分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會，各位官員請坐好。","我們現在請賴惠員委員，請詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有請主委好 有請主委"},{"start":27.216,"end":48.029,"text":"各位好主委好很高興可以在這個會期又再看到你希望可以一起繼續的協作首先想先拜託主委一件事這個NVIDIA之前有來台灣設立這個所謂的創新研發中心那有這個所謂的超級電腦算力這個台北一號那不知道主委知不知道台北一號在哪裡"},{"start":49.246,"end":73.545,"text":"在高雄我想我們用這樣的一個機制去提供全台這樣的一個算力的協助我覺得非常感謝不過根據我們的了解我們看到經濟部在申請資格這裡有一個很奇怪的設計就是說它說NVIDIA的算力管理規定說申請單位在申請的時候需要一次完整的使用6週或12週"},{"start":75.746,"end":89.462,"text":"我們去研究了一下我們就發現其實有團隊跟我們反映說到最後申請下來多半都是以六週為主其實很少有人可以拿到12週為什麼 因為太多人想用了而且這六週呢又必須要連續的"},{"start":90.603,"end":108.438,"text":"沒有辦法說我要申請長一點的時間可是我只用譬如說十二分之一的算力其實有團隊在反映說很感謝有這樣的一個機制但是我們都知道我想主委一定很清楚其實科學研究六週等於差不多一個半月其實要一個半月就做出成果真的是相當困難"},{"start":109.239,"end":131.995,"text":"所以在這個train error的過程裡面,有沒有一個機會,我是希望能夠幫這個學術單位能夠跟您反映一下,有沒有一個更有彈性的使用的機制。那我們也了解了,其實NVIDIA根本沒有這個算力規定啦。能不能您作為AI的大家長跟經濟部,我知道這是經濟部處理的,可是可不可以協作來試一下,我們能不能有更彈性的使用方式。"},{"start":133.161,"end":150.311,"text":"因為這個是經濟部的業務我並不了解他們現在運作的狀況委員的這個意見我會跟經濟部來溝通一下是 因為您是政委同時也是我們的主委我相信很多的科研單位都是跟你們申請計畫"},{"start":151.252,"end":168.886,"text":"那計劃補助了以後,他們確實是在使用這個算力來做研究那希望主委可以關心一下,看能不能提供更好的一個彈性的方式否則其實有很多的單位跟我們反映到最後他們都只能使用AWS或是雲端的其他的算力費用也很高昂,但是整體來講我覺得有點可惜"},{"start":170.908,"end":182.219,"text":"那另外一方面是為什麼都到最後只能申請到六週也是因為有可能會有一個算力不足的這個狀況啦就是大家都在搶算力那我想請教一下有沒有台北二號的計畫"},{"start":184.403,"end":202.842,"text":"這個我沒有聽過耶那可不可以幫忙爭取一下我想NVIDIA在台灣遇到這樣的挑戰可是我們接下來能不能還是能夠跟它持續的深化合作我希望主委再投出一顆好球好不好有沒有機會演繹一下這個部分幫我們的學者爭取一下"},{"start":203.666,"end":222.081,"text":"我們其實現在是有鼓勵民間投資啦那民間投資像偉創之通也宣布林董事長也宣布宣布說他們也要建置這個資料中心那他們也願意提供一部分的算力來鼓勵包含學界的研發成果要商業化這部分他們是"},{"start":222.441,"end":241.549,"text":"好 很好 因為這次是NVIDIA提供25%的算力我想這樣的一個機制希望能夠擴大另外 整體來講算力可能還是有不夠的狀況接下來我們可以期待有沒有一個新的算力的中心可以讓這些研究機構或者產業能夠不要這樣子用搶的方式又搶不到 時間又很短"},{"start":242.109,"end":254.872,"text":"能不能给我们一个愿景我们接下来一个更大的一个算力中心或者算力的一个算力池是什么时间多大的算力有机会可以期待主委有没有一个大概的愿景可以让我们关注一下"},{"start":255.663,"end":279.075,"text":"我們預算有在逐年編列其實也跟委員報告過我們在台南會建置算力中心包含在南科台南園區那個是已經完工了正在裝置設備然後我們工建計畫明年從"},{"start":281.457,"end":298.698,"text":"從這個115年起開始設計就是沙倫的這個Data Center那這個我們也都會提供給學術界來那這個採購的部分預算都已經下去了嗎它是會採購這個NVIDIA或者其他這個新的算力這個算力的這個Petaflops有沒有一個預計啊"},{"start":300.425,"end":315.465,"text":"現在不算Pelaflops現在就是算力我們用這個耗電因為不是使用用瓦數來算是對的因為真正那個算力可以用它消耗的這個功率現在的GPU大概都差不多所以我們會採購"},{"start":317.107,"end":338.865,"text":"採購的這個設備現在沒有限定哪一家對不起 主委我請教一下對不起打斷你就是說如果你是用電力耗損度來看的話而不是用Peta Flops來算的話那我如果買一些比較舊型的這個顯卡或舊型的算力裝置它其實因為它可能是比較舊的奈米製程"},{"start":339.545,"end":357.135,"text":"它耗電功率比較大那反而從瓦數來看它好像比較厲害可是實際上它的算力可能比較低啊這個怎麼避免這樣的一個問題啊所以我們在比的時候這個是很難有一個公平的比法現在在比的時候當然都要談是現有的設備不是老的設備"},{"start":358.283,"end":384.497,"text":"那各國都是用Petaflops在算還是用瓦數在算?現在已經沒有,Petaflops是早期的Supercomputer所以現在都是用瓦數在算?你確定喔?現在是這樣,沒有錯那到時候我們就要看一下break down啦不然你到時候瓦數買了大家特別去買一些高功耗的結果算力比較弱的,那你這樣子平均起來你說我們耗電量超大,算力很強可是實際上算力不夠,這真的很怪喔應該沒有那麼笨會故意買那個高耗能的"},{"start":385.637,"end":403.423,"text":"我相信主委你不會那麼笨啦但是也有人可能刻意不小心不聰明的話這樣不太好啦所以我們我希望大家一起來關注這個部分好不好這不是玩笑啦因為這都是名子名高好不好那另外呢我想接下來也要看一下謝謝你們準備這份業務報告"},{"start":405.063,"end":427.353,"text":"但是我覺得有一點緊張機器人的部分很重要對不對我們剛剛提到了這個全球是百億千億的在投入機器人的部分在這次業務報告佔多少主委有沒有一個概念85頁你猜一下大概佔多少應該很重要對不對你猜一下佔多少"},{"start":428.879,"end":456.022,"text":"你應該看過這一份嘛 對不對重不重要 很重要嘛我們行政院這個智慧機器人方案頭百億嘛 對不對 千億下去嘛就頭頭差不多兩百億 其中每一半對啊 占多少嘛 占多少 85頁占多少85頁 你有沒有一個概念這一次業務報告啦 你應該看過嘛主委 時間有限 你翻到11頁好不好11頁 第11頁"},{"start":457.677,"end":481.344,"text":"我們的智慧機器人在這次的業務報告竟然只佔了10行啊你是說幾行啊10行啊照我們的比例看起來170分之1喔170分之1喔結果你們的年度的預算也不過就這些200億也不少耶那沒有關係 主委我理解不少啊"},{"start":481.624,"end":498.138,"text":"雖然不少啊但是你們的這個我覺得還不夠啦就是說規劃你仔細看一下你仔細看一下11頁你們的描述非常的空泛報告我們行政院那個方案也公告我理解我都放在手上了我都放在手上行政院方案我有拿到"},{"start":499.139,"end":515.684,"text":"那我想要講的就是因為機器人對台灣的產業整合非常有意義而且很重要為什麼在這個行政院方案的第八頁就寫了為什麼台灣要著重機器人很重要的原因是第一個半導體製造優勢行政院說的"},{"start":516.044,"end":532.965,"text":"第二個 知識通訊技術的優勢 行政院說的第三個 研發能量很強我們台灣的Machine Learning ML Computer Vision CV跟這個所謂的NLP 自然語言處理 都很強這三個整合起來就是機器人產業但是在這裡面 我們還是有點擔心這個"},{"start":535.848,"end":558.001,"text":"十行的描述喔有一點空泛又有一點小怎麼佈局怎麼定位任務是什麼主委現在有沒有一個很明確的說法在看啊你看人家已經這個打中國功夫的打中國功夫啊出這種恐怖人形機器人都出啦我是想要問一下主委有沒有一個明確的佈局啊不然我們看了很緊張啊"},{"start":560.254,"end":587.36,"text":"報告委員我們要做服務型機器人產業需求要應付社會各種各樣需求我們藉助台灣現在既有的供應鏈我們很多廠商都已經準備好了我們要發展系統發展應用服務這個是我們現在的重點我們不是要去打擂台踢來踢去這個不是現在我們的重點我們在健康照護在旅宿餐飲等等各種社會需求政治防救災"},{"start":588.88,"end":602.905,"text":"這一點主委我還是要提醒你一下我們可以不去跟人家打擂台別人可能會來跟我們打擂台啦所以我理解服務機器人是一個路線但是我還是要提醒主委智慧機器人裡面應該還是包含人形的"},{"start":603.385,"end":626.115,"text":"不是說你說我不跟你打 別人就不會來打你所以我想這一塊還是要往前衝啦不要說我們來不及了 我們比較晚了我們害怕 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沒錯嘛"},{"start":727.267,"end":740.474,"text":"我們歡迎他們來申請但是我們不能夠說主動給他錢沒有經過一個審查程序是不行的可以有審查程序但是能不能針對這幾個研究中心"},{"start":741.354,"end":767.245,"text":"可不可以有一個縱效的產生因為我清楚本來就可以讓他們申請但是一邊又要做教學一邊又要設立研發中心一邊又要再寫新的計畫來跟國會申請其實學者們的時間是有限的還要去寫計畫來申請台北灣的算力我是真的能不能請主委研議一下我們教育部國會都希望能夠減少"},{"start":768.425,"end":796.592,"text":"行政的成本我們優勢的人才才能夠跟國際競爭啊主委可不可以研議一下一個月內給一個研議的可能性好不好就怎麼樣產生縱效啦我們不是說要做一個怎麼樣的一個批評或什麼真的是在幫我們台灣的這個學界不然五千萬可以 我們可以跟教育部來討論一下協調一下讓這個縱效可以發揮得更好太好了"},{"start":797.172,"end":814.327,"text":"謝謝主委這個很高興在新的會期看到主委那我想我們這樣一個正向的一個協作的機制我們可以設立起來那剛剛您提的研議的結果可不可以一個月內提供給我們辦公室好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝格魯遜委員質詢主委請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時40分）謝謝！有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好！很高興可以在這個會期再看到你，希望可以一起繼續協作。首先想拜託主委一件事，NVIDIA之前有來臺灣設立所謂的創新研發中心，還有超級電腦算力Taipei-1，請問主委知不知道Taipei-1在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在高雄。"],["葛委員如鈞：對，對於用這樣的一個機制去提供全臺算力的協助，我覺得非常感謝，不過根據我們的瞭解，經濟部在申請資格這裡有一個很奇怪的設計，就是根據NVIDIA的算力管理規定，申請單位在申請的時候一次須完整使用6周或12周。而我們研究了一下發現，其實也有團隊向我們反映，最後申請下來的多半是以6周為主，很少有人可以拿到12周，為什麼？因為太多人想用了。而且這6周又必須是連續的，沒有辦法申請長一點的時間，可是只用譬如說十二分之一的算力。有團隊反映很感謝有這樣的機制，但是我們都知道、我想主委一定也很清楚，就科學研究而言，6周差不多等於一個半月，要在一個半月之內就做出成果真的相當困難。所以，在這個trial and 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Center，我們也都會提供給學術界來……"],["葛委員如鈞：在採購的部分，預算都已經下去了嗎？是採購NVIDIA或其他新的算力petaFLOPS？有沒有預計啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在算力不算petaFLOPS，用的是耗電，因為不是只有……"],["葛委員如鈞：用瓦數來算就對了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為真正的算力可以用消耗的功率計算，現在的GPU大概都差不多，所以我們採購的設備現在沒有限定哪一家……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，對不起打斷你，我請教一下，如果用電力耗損度來看、而不是用petaFLOPS來算的話，我要是買一些比較舊型的顯卡或舊型算力裝置，可能因為它屬於比較舊的奈米製程，耗電功率比較大，雖然從瓦數來看好像比較厲害，可是實際上算力可能反而比較低，要怎麼避免這樣的問題啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯，所以在比較的時候很難有公平的比法，在比的時候，當然要談現有設備，不是老的設備。"],["葛委員如鈞：那各國都用petaFLOPS計算還是用瓦數算？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在已經沒有了，petaFLOPS是早期Supercomputer的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在都是用瓦數算？你確定喔？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，現在是這樣沒有錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我們就要看一下breakdown啊！不然到時候瓦數買了，大家特別買一些高功耗的產品，結果算力卻比較弱，平均起來，雖然你說耗電量超大、算力很強，實際上算力卻不夠，這樣很怪喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該沒有人會那麼笨，故意買高耗能產品。"],["葛委員如鈞：我相信主委不會那麼笨啦！但是可能有人刻意、不小心、不聰明的話，這樣不太好啦！所以我希望大家一起關注這個部分好不好？這不是玩笑啦！因為這都是民脂民膏，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來，謝謝你們準備這份業務報告，但是我覺得有點緊張啊！機器人的部分很重要嘛！對不對？光是我們提到的，全球是百億、千億在投入啊！那麼機器人在這次業務報告裡占多少，主委有沒有概念？在第85頁。你猜一下大概占多少，這應該很重要嘛！對不對？你猜一下占多少。你應該看過這份嘛！對不對？重不重要？很重要嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院智慧機器人方案……"],["葛委員如鈞：投百億嘛！千億下去嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：total總共差不多200億元。"],["葛委員如鈞：200億元，對啊！占多少嘛？第85頁占多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：第85頁……"],["葛委員如鈞：你有沒有概念？我是說這次業務報告啦！你應該看過嘛！主委，時間有限，你翻到第11頁好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：第11頁？"],["葛委員如鈞：對，第11頁。智慧機器人在這次業務報告裡竟然只占了10行啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：你是說幾行喔？"],["葛委員如鈞：10行啊！照比例看起來，是一百七十分之一喔！你們年度預算也不過就這些，其中200億元不少欸！沒有關係，我理解……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是不少啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：對，不少啊！但是我覺得規劃還不夠啦！","你仔細看一下第11頁，描述非常空泛……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，行政院那個方案也公告了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我理解，我都拿在手上了，行政院的方案我有拿到。","我想講的是機器人產業對臺灣的產業整合非常有意義，而且很重要，為什麼？在行政院方案的第8頁就寫了臺灣為什麼要著重機器人？第一個很重要的原因是半導體製造優勢，這是行政院說的。第二是資通訊技術的優勢，行政院說的。第三，研發能量很強，臺灣的machine learning（ML）、computer vision（CV）跟自然語言處理（NLP）都很強，這三者整合起來就是機器人產業。但是我們還是有點擔心，這10行的描述有一點空泛，又有點小，怎麼布局、怎麼定位、任務是什麼？主委現在有沒有很明確的說法啊？你看，打中國功夫的打中國功夫啊！恐怖人形機器人都出了啊！我想問問主委有沒有明確的布局？不然我們看得很緊張啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們要做服務型機器人，除了產業需求，也要應付社會各種各樣需求，我們會借助臺灣既有供應鏈，很多廠商都已經準備好了。我們要發展系統、發展應用服務，這是現在的重點，而不是要打擂臺、踢來踢去，這不是現在的重點。在健康照護、旅宿餐飲等各種社會需求、甚至防救災這些領域，我們都會發展。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，我還要提醒你一下，我們可以不跟人家打擂臺，但別人可能會來跟我們打擂臺啦！我理解服務機器人是一種路線，但我還是要提醒主委，智慧機器人還是應該包含人形，不是你說「我不跟你打」，別人就不會來打你喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有排斥。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想這一塊還是要往前衝啦！不要說「我們來不及了」、「我們比較晚了」、「我們害怕」，絕對不害怕！人家要打擂臺，我們就要跟人家打，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們作學術研究，對所有機器人……"],["葛委員如鈞：不要限制。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有限制。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這一點我希望您未來還是要持續協作。","接著還是要繼續請教，在我們剛剛提到的10行字裡面，提到要補助學界、協助學界研發，我先代替學界感謝。但是我其實也看到教育部啟動了一項頂尖研究中心的計畫，對於5家大學、6大研究中心，一年要投3億元，每一個中心分起來大概是一年5,000萬元啦！雖然這是教育部的計畫，但是您是AI的大家長，又是政務委員，我想請教、也希望關注一下，國科會對於這6大研究中心有沒有額外去matching？也就是說教育部已經投5,000萬元了，而我知道其中幾個計畫有做機器人、有做robot learning，那我們可不可以集合起來、產生綜效？因為5,000萬元要研究這個，跟國際比起來，老實說不多啦！國科會可不可以對這些研究中心再補進去，以產生綜效？我想請教一下，有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啊！所有大學、教育部支持的這些研究中心也會同步申請國科會的研究計畫，這是沒有問題的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我知道您會這樣回答，但是我想講的是國科會能不能主動、積極地協助？而不是坐在這裡等著他們來申請。主委也能理解，申請研究計畫很花時間，而且申請了還不一定通過，對不對？沒錯嘛！所以我是真心的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們歡迎他們來申請，但不能主動給他們錢，沒有經過審查程序是不行的。"],["葛委員如鈞：可以有審查程序，但是能不能針對這幾處研究中心補助，讓他們產生綜效？我清楚本來就可以讓他們申請，但是他們一邊要教學，一邊要設立研發中心，又要一邊寫新的計畫向國科會申請。其實學者們的時間是有限的……他們還要寫計畫申請Taipei-1的算力。我請主委研議一下，畢竟教育部、國科會都希望能夠減少行政成本，我們的優勢人才才能跟國際競爭啊！主委可不可以研議一下，1個月內研議可能性，好不好？就是怎麼樣產生綜效啦！我不是要批評或什麼，而是真的在幫臺灣學界發聲，不然5,000萬元……"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以、可以，我們可以跟教育部……"],["葛委員如鈞：討論一下、協調一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，讓綜效可以發揮得更好。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝主委。很高興在新的會期看到主委，我相信這樣的正向協作機制可以設立起來。剛剛您提到的研議結果在1個月內提供給我的辦公室好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳）：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢，主委請回座。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。我們都知道國科會審查科技預算，我先了解一下，科技預算在112年度是一千三百二十七億多元，113年下降到1,276億元，114年又上升到1,466億元，那麼115年呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：115年現在編列一千六百六十幾億元。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，現在是一千六百多億元。","我們來看一下，過去各部會都會提案，在原民會這邊，我看到它110年到113年度的核定本是這麼提的：要做無線寬頻來增加涵蓋率、要做友善耕作的養殖技法，又提出就那些小微型企業強化產品特色跟創新服務模式。","我想了解一下，主委，我不知道原民會歷年都怎麼提，但是依我看到的，加上衛福部、教育部、數發部等部會有一些也做在原偏鄉、原住民身上的相關費用，每一年度大概可以得到1億元左右。這1億元大概是什麼比例呢？1億元在大水庫裡面，大概就是萬分之五這樣的比例。我想，這樣會讓人覺得原住民跟科技好像拉不上關係，或者讓人覺得原住民可能不太需要科技預算。在原民會整個計畫與想法裡面，他們可能不太知道到底要怎麼提報計畫，以爭取科技預算。主委，你有沒有建議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，原民會自己提出來的科技計畫應該不多。為什麼呢？因為整個原民會執行科技預算的能量其實並不高。但我們並不會因為這樣，就對原民會的協助減少，並沒有！譬如說太空計畫雖然編在國科會太空中心，可是我們是跟原民會一起執行，對原住民族還有偏鄉部落加以照顧，不會只限定在原民會提出的計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，主委，這就是我要請教您的主要原因，因為我覺得很可惜啊！各部會要提報、要拿計畫來，但是想像起來就會有限啊！所以我想請教國科會主委，以您的角色，您覺得原民會其實可以做哪些跟科技有關的計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我們都在進行當中，譬如說，除了我剛才講的太空科技計畫之外，還有科普教育。在各個地方，我們除了跟縣市政府合作之外，也跟原民會合作。在國科會研究計畫資助學者部分，在各個領域、學門，只要跟原住民族有關，我們也都鼓勵他們跟……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，這些我都了解，我只是希望在這個質詢臺上聽到一些國科會給他們的建議。我舉個例子來講，前面那位委員提到機器人，我覺得我們現正推動族語教學，很需要語言機器人啊！如果原民會提報這個計畫，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以啊！可以支持啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛！","像我們正在推在宅醫療，而針對原鄉，我之前就特別強調，原住民有特別多的洗腎病患，要從那麼偏遠的地方去醫院洗腎，一個禮拜三次，說實在的，對他們來說很辛苦。我看到國外有洗腎車，我希望也能到原偏鄉服務，後來他們告訴我，其實可以搭配在宅醫療計畫，也同意未來可以做在家洗腎。但是很多族人告訴我還是有一些條件，包括家裡要有人會做護理，有些人是獨居老人啊！所以可不可以研究以什麼樣的方式去做？或者因應很多這樣獨居的人，有沒有照顧機器人？還有很多老人家獨居嘛！或者可不可以由原民會提報計畫，讓所有55歲以上原住民老人都有一只智慧手錶，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對於這一類計畫，其實我們很歡迎。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：歡迎嘛！那我叫原民會多動頭腦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。因為主政是衛福部，我們其實也正與衛福部努力合作，要推動醫療分級，除了醫學中心、大醫院之外，希望能夠到偏鄉、甚至到家戶、到住宅，也就是在宅醫療，我們跟衛福部現正合作推動這個計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部也會進來，因為涉及醫材產業；數發部也會進來，處理AI應用服務。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於原民、偏鄉部分，我們當然很希望跟地方政府還有原民會合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，您這樣說，我就放心了。其實我覺得要的東西很多跟科技有關，因為既然是偏鄉，為了達到數位平權、弭平數位落差，政府本來就必須給予積極性的差別待遇，而不是認為愈偏鄉就愈不需要，而是政府應該給予積極的差別待遇。","像這次花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖事件，科技防災就發揮很大的功效，因為有無人機團隊去偵查、運補，真的發揮很大的功效。我也覺得，其實原民會可以多提一些科技防災的想法，像我們就很需要。","人才培育也可以給錢嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：人才培育也可以，但是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：像是飛手的訓練。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是部會爭取到預算要有執行單位，因為它不是由公務員執行，必須要有執行單位，如果這些執行單位又都是學界、產業界，其實是不能重疊，所以我是希望原民會能與其他部會合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然是要合作，但是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果是它自己提，我是怕它無法執行啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：關於這個部分，我們會來要求。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為學界一定會連結到國科會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，連結是可以，但是你說它獨立的量能有問題，但有時候與人家合作，如果不夠積極也很容易被邊緣化。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，所以部會之間的合作……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我還是希望它能有一個獨立的科技預算，至少要有責任感啦！包括我們講的這些農噴、這些無人機的運用等，我們希望你們的研究成果落地，這些科技包括我剛剛講的語言機器人等等，我們都希望能夠處理，謝謝主委。聽到你這樣的回應，我覺得至少可以讓原民會有一個方向，謝謝你。","另外一個部分，其實我也想要再請教一下主委，因為有很多的原住民學者專家非常在意，所以我才會好幾次提出質詢，之前我在6月18日就原住民學門的建構提出質詢，當時主委允諾朝原民期刊的方向，跨部會培力專題研究團隊，因此我也在7月3日邀請國科會的夥伴召開諮詢會議，他們也給我3個承諾。第一個，彙整散落各地的期刊論文，把它變成專書。第二個，國際期刊的部分就由國際學會支持國內教授爭取主持。第三個就是知識培力團隊跨部會討論，並副知本辦。到現在已經過了3個月，我又站在質詢台上，因為我並沒有拿到相關的資料，所以想要請教是否已經盤點了？至少要把期程與規劃的方向告訴我？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們人文處其實已經積極在進行，有關國際期刊的部分，目前臺灣學界評估的結果認為現在沒有能力以這個主題成為一個國際性的期刊，因為國科會是一個行政機關……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是有提到啊！我們討論時是說由國內教授爭取主持學會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果國內教授要成立一個學會，這個學會要去辦期刊，國科會會支持的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望能拿到相關的規劃與期程，總不能給了我一些承諾，然後好幾個月過去了，我也不知道到底結果如何？可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我請我們的人文處把報告送給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委。主委，你應該明白我的心思啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民學術化、學術原民化。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我的意思是我們不應該好像只是讓原民進入整個學術界，而是希望整個學術界能夠有原民化、族群主流化的概念，這對整個原住民未來的提升是非常重要的，因此我一直希望朝專書出版去累積原民的學術能量，建立這樣的一個基礎。現在政府也編很多錢在做原住民的知識體系，但是我覺得進展非常的慢，而且我也認為方向及方法是有點問題，所以我希望藉著國科會的力量以專書及期刊等方式，慢慢將原住民知識生產的方式及其實踐的方法學架構起來。因此，我希望在1個月內能夠針對今天我關心的這些問題給我一個回應，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，請主委回座。","接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da6d44156560af7a77e29853ba2d60c06d83c966d97180d5d26df76adf96966f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:40:52 - 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左右台灣人均的GDP是多少3萬8千美元"},{"start":56.562,"end":60.223,"text":"如果用總數來算的話今年預估是26兆多 明年預估28兆多人均的話大概是3萬5左右 明年預估是超過4萬"},{"start":78.369,"end":104.768,"text":"來來來 主計這邊三萬四 人均是三萬四比較大聲的沒關係人均三萬四 明年差不多三萬八明年三萬八三萬八是一個大家聽起來就比較振奮的數字雖然多數人的無感那我們現在就看著怎麼樣在你的施政上可以匆匆隆隆下一句"},{"start":106.004,"end":129.35,"text":"游刃有餘你不要捉襟見肘所以要把餅做大在30年前台灣是四小龍之首我們人均GDP那時候贏過新加坡就新加坡現在的成長人均GDP到9萬5千美元"},{"start":131.107,"end":147.429,"text":"我們就一直在思考應該怎麼做把餅做大把台灣做強讓我們在國際更有競爭的一個優勢所以 卵次長"},{"start":148.905,"end":169.054,"text":"先請教你一下因為今天大概討論很多了就是一般型補助 計畫型補助當然在我們地方的立場是越多越好可是我們新北減少了很多等一下麻煩請主計長這邊再來說明一下首先就是請阮次長把餅做大這個很重要你看我們累積大概"},{"start":177.287,"end":200.119,"text":"六七年來稅收大概超過一兆八千億這個錢到底跑去哪裡我跟委員報告基本上它就是第一個它就是用來還債這是第一個因為我們沒有還多少我們還債你還債 我們國債中也是差不多它一直在升高"},{"start":201.484,"end":225.537,"text":"現在國債中的情況是多少另外我也跟委員報告其實大家可能看到的那些所謂時增數超過預算數都是總預算如果我們加計特別預算的話以過去從101年到去年為止113年為止這13年當中只有4年是有剩餘的其他都是赤字"},{"start":228.118,"end":247.495,"text":"所以我是講說不能只看總預算要看包括總預算跟特別預算統籌來看是 所以你有沒有發現特別預算變成是一個巧門也不會 因為所有的預算都要經過立法院這邊通過這十年來你有沒有算過特別預算加一加總額多少"},{"start":248.437,"end":277.15,"text":"特別預算我這邊手上因為一直在增加最近的數字可能我請同仁再會合我是不是再提供給這個數字你要多清楚一點就是說我們感覺稅收都超增啊結果錢一兆八千億到底跑去哪裡大家覺得那沒有的話你要把這個實質的好處讓人民有感嘛或者是軍公家要調心嘛結果好像"},{"start":278.177,"end":302.445,"text":"也沒有那種快樂指數上升的感覺沒有啊所以我們在想說應該要好好來思考一下什麼樣的一個方法可以像新加坡一樣讓我們人均GDP可以急起直追至少有機會到新加坡了你不要說一樣至少要打八折吧"},{"start":302.912,"end":324.052,"text":"我跟委員報告,以我對產業的了解,我們跟新加坡的產業結構是非常不一樣的。我們的產業結構比較類似像韓國,或甚至跟日本比較類似。所以新加坡畢竟是一個城市國家,它的主要的收入來源最主要是靠投資、靠金融。"},{"start":324.693,"end":354.353,"text":"那我們是靠一般的這個製造業所以像我們製造業我們包括我們ICT產業就占我們出口就占百分之七成五全部都是靠IC產業所以很重要一部分電池產業所以我的意思是說最近這幾年為什麼我們能夠超越韓國就是因為我們在這些方面比韓國還要強還要強那表示這個警訊已經出現了我們現在全部都靠護國神山"},{"start":355.253,"end":378.305,"text":"現在又有漁工要移山把這座山移到美國去那我們剩下什麼山我們只剩阿里山我覺得我想不管是我們院的長官就是卓院長也一再強調還有很多的相關的卓院長是不是辭了好幾次要請辭是不是你有沒有聽過哪位卓院長"},{"start":379.454,"end":386.553,"text":"我不曉得 這個是長官的事我們不會怎麼會知道你當次長不是要請辭三次 四次都被拒絕啊"},{"start":389.352,"end":412.639,"text":"這個我不太清楚你再問問看但是我是覺得有消息跟我講一下我們的產業就是說剛才講說戶口神山戶口神山到其他國家去投資到底是不是會不會就是說影響到台灣的經濟發展其實到目前的所有的研究報告都認為是擴大我們對這個產業的影響力而不是掏空我們國內的經濟"},{"start":418.181,"end":438.356,"text":"所以市長的說法是有點正面因為最主要是核心留在台灣好 金娘你這樣說台灣的股市有沒有機會破三萬點我不是股市分析師但是最近股市真的是非常的強真的很強"},{"start":438.996,"end":452.025,"text":"那最主要也是因為我們的就是AI的產業高速運算產業這一部分這個是可以講說是成長非常的快市長 你現在那個國安基金要不要擴大它的規模"},{"start":454.287,"end":480.422,"text":"如果委員支持的話我就樂觀其成因為為什麼現在總共五千億嗎現在五千億但是實際上可以用的只有兩千億因為另外三千億是要跟其他基金借但是其他基金其實已經沒有錢因為錢都投進去了所以我們能夠只有能夠用的大概就兩千億因為以前最多的話大概是一萬多點在談國安基金的時候是五千億現在我們整個台灣的股市的市值是多少"},{"start":480.922,"end":493.466,"text":"現在都超過40兆以上了40兆以上了嘛40兆那40兆你要40的調升調升的話有沒有可能5000億往上調調到1兆左右如果可以的話我絕對都關起程我覺得1兆也還勉強啦"},{"start":497.427,"end":520.056,"text":"也沒有多多少啦我所謂一兆是說扣除那個就是扣除那些從基金借的假定是說我們可以從行戶那邊借到7000億的話我是覺得對股市的穩定民心的穩定還有投資的信心一定有很大的幫助所以你現在算起來就是加起來你可以運作的希望可以達到超過一兆以上"},{"start":520.977,"end":539.794,"text":"差不多啦 差不多那個金額如果可以的話如果委員支持的話我就覺得這個是一個很好的方向支持我要再研究一下看你會不會匆匆容容好那最重要的是你要把一些好的一些說則把它提出來修法"},{"start":540.695,"end":562.26,"text":"你起碼跟那個新加坡一樣嘛為什麼人家你說是城市國家會發展的很好那好的地方在哪裡你可以通盤檢討一下吧是好不好那我也希望說趕快啦把一些外在的環境排除以後希望股市可以上看多少"},{"start":565.972,"end":592.792,"text":"这个我没办法说这个数字是三万三万是OK的意思OK那有很多的因素我帮次长讲三万点三万点吧因为一万我也请你吃过鸡排喝过珍奶两万也吃过了等着这个三万我会加倍奉还可是请你要注意一下因为"},{"start":593.912,"end":610.614,"text":"現在台灣的這個結構有錢的賺了很多AI周邊賺很多傳統產業苦哈哈傳統產業的部分大概平均三分之二不漲反跌跌破20年平均線"},{"start":611.835,"end":638.42,"text":"所以本席也希望竹記總書這邊也注意這個問題就對於弱勢關懷比如說新北市需要照顧不管是你一般補助或計畫型的補助你要增加他的關愛的眼神金額要多一點因為必須我們400多萬人人數最多人均來講我們是最辛苦的請多多照顧"},{"start":639.48,"end":640.603,"text":"新北市 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1034,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時40分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好。主席，請財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["羅委員明才：主計總處陳主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["羅委員明才：兩位都是很重要的財經官員。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。我們看到整個全世界的變化，請問一下現在新加坡的人均GDP是多少？9萬5,000美元左右啦！臺灣人均的GDP是多少？3萬多，3萬8,000美元。"],["阮次長清華：如果用總數來算，今年的話預估是26兆多，明年預估到28兆多。"],["羅委員明才：26、28兆，所以人均的GDP大概多少？"],["阮次長清華：人均的話大概是3萬……"],["羅委員明才：3萬5左右？"],["阮次長清華：明年的話就會超過，預估是超過4萬。"],["羅委員明才：4萬？主計這邊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3萬4，人均是3萬4啦！"],["羅委員明才：大聲一點沒關係。"],["陳主計長淑姿：人均3萬4，明年差不多3萬8。"],["羅委員明才：3萬8是一個大家聽起來就比較振奮的數字，雖然多數人仍無感。那我們現在就看怎麼樣在你的施政上可以從從容容，下一句游刃有餘。你不要捉襟見肘嘛！所以要把餅做大，在30年前臺灣是四小龍之首，我們人均GDP那時候贏過新加坡，結果新加坡現在的成長，人均GDP到9萬5,000美元。我們就一直在思考應該怎麼做，把餅做大，把臺灣做強，讓我們在國際更有競爭的優勢。","阮次長，先請教你一下，因為今天大家大概討論很多，就是一般型補助、計畫型補助。當然在我們地方的立場是越多越好，可是我們新北現在減少了很多，等一下麻煩請主計長這邊再來說明一下。首先，阮次長，把餅做大這個很重要啊！你看我們累積大概6、7年來，稅收大概超過1兆8,000億元，這個錢到底跑去哪裡？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，基本上第一個是用來還債。"],["羅委員明才：我們沒有還多少啊！我們的國債鐘也是差不多啊！還一直在升高，現在國債鐘的情況是多少？"],["阮次長清華：其實大家所看到的實徵數超過預算數都是總預算，如果我們加計特別預算的話，從101年到去年113年為止，這13年當中只有4年有賸餘，其他都是赤字，所以不能只看總預算，要看包括總預算和特別預算，統籌來看。"],["羅委員明才：所以你有沒有發現特別預算變成是一個巧門？"],["阮次長清華：也不會，因為所有的預算都要經過立法院通過。"],["羅委員明才：你有沒有算過這10年來特別預算加一加總額多少？"],["阮次長清華：因為一直在增加，最近的數字會後再請同仁提供給委員參考。"],["羅委員明才：這個數字要說清楚一點，就是說我們感覺稅收都超徵，結果1兆8,000億元的錢到底跑去哪裡？實質的好處你要讓人民有感，或者軍公教要調薪，結果好像也沒有那種快樂指數上升的感覺，沒有啊！所以我們想說要好好來思考一下什麼樣的方法，可以像新加坡一樣，讓我們人均GDP可以急起直追，不要說一樣，至少是新加坡打八折吧！"],["阮次長清華：以我對產業的了解，我們跟新加坡的產業結構非常不一樣，我們的產業結構比較類似韓國，甚至跟日本比較類似，新加坡畢竟是個城市國家，它的主要收入來源是靠投資、金融，我們是靠一般的製造業，像我們的製造業，包括ICT產業就占我們出口的七成五……"],["羅委員明才：全部都是靠IC產業、電子產業。"],["阮次長清華：所以我的意思是說這幾年為什麼我們能夠超越韓國？就是因為我們在這方面比韓國還要強。"],["羅委員明才：表示這個警訊已經出現了，我們現在全部都靠護國神山，現在又有愚公要移山，把這座山移到美國去，那我們剩下什麼山？我們只剩阿里山啊！"],["阮次長清華：不管是我們院的長官，卓院長也一再強調，還有很多相關機關的主管機關……"],["羅委員明才：卓院長是不是辭了好幾次？要請辭是不是？你有沒有聽過？"],["阮次長清華：哪一位？"],["羅委員明才：卓院長。"],["阮次長清華：我不曉得，這是長官的事，我們不會知道。"],["羅委員明才：當次長不知道！聽說要請辭三次、四次都被拒絕。"],["阮次長清華：這個我不太清楚。"],["羅委員明才：你再問問看，有消息跟我講一下。"],["阮次長清華：我們的產業，剛才講的護國神山到其他國家投資，到底會不會影響到臺灣的經濟發展，其實到目前所有的研究報告都認為是擴大我們對這個產業的影響力，而不是掏空我們國內的經濟。"],["羅委員明才：次長的說法有點正面。"],["阮次長清華：最主要是核心留在臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：既然你這樣說，臺灣的股市有沒有機會破3萬點？"],["阮次長清華：我不是股市分析師，但是最近股市真的非常強，最主要也是因為我們的AI產業、高速運算產業這部分成長非常快。"],["羅委員明才：國安基金要不要擴大規模？"],["阮次長清華：如果委員支持的話，我樂觀其成。"],["羅委員明才：現在總共5,000億元嘛。"],["阮次長清華：現在5,000億元，但實際上可以用的只有2,000億元，另外3,000億元是要跟其他基金借，但其他基金其實已經沒有錢，因為都投進去了，所以能用的大概只有2,000億元。"],["羅委員明才：因為以前最多大概是一萬多點，國安基金是5,000億元，現在整個臺灣股市的市值是多少？"],["阮次長清華：超過40兆以上了。"],["羅委員明才：你要適時的調升，有沒有可能5,000億元往上調，調到1兆元左右？"],["阮次長清華：如果可以的話，我都樂觀其成。"],["羅委員明才：1兆元也還勉強，也沒有多多少。"],["阮次長清華：我所謂的1兆元是扣除從基金借的，假定我們可以從行庫借到7,000億元的話，我覺得對股市的穩定、民心的穩定和投資人的信心，一定有很大的幫助。"],["羅委員明才：所以你算起來、加起來可運作的希望可以超過1兆元以上？差不多那個金額。"],["阮次長清華：對，如果可以的話，如果委員支持的話，我覺得這是一個很好的方向。"],["羅委員明才：支不支持我還要研究一下，看你們會不會從從容容。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["羅委員明才：最重要的是你要把一些好的稅則提出來修法，起碼跟新加坡一樣，你說人家是城市國家會發展得很好，好的地方在哪裡，你可以通盤檢討一下吧！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["羅委員明才：好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["羅委員明才：我也希望趕快把一些外在的環境排除以後，希望股市可以上看……你看我的手比的是多少？"],["阮次長清華：這個我沒辦法說。"],["羅委員明才：這個數字是3萬，3萬是OK的意思。"],["主席：3萬啦，我幫次長講3萬點。"],["羅委員明才：因為1萬點我也請你吃過雞排、喝過珍奶，2萬點也吃過了，等著3萬點，我會加倍奉還，可是請你要注意一下，因為現在臺灣的結構，有錢的賺很多，AI周邊賺很多，傳統產業苦哈哈，傳統產業的部分大概平均三分之二不漲反跌，跌破20年平均線，所以本席希望主計總處這邊也注意這個問題，對於弱勢關懷，例如新北市需要照顧，不管是一般補助或計畫型的補助，你要增加對他們關愛的眼神，金額要多一點，畢竟我們四百多萬人，人數最多，人均來講我們是最辛苦的，請多多照顧新北市，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。","接下來請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},{"id":"164585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da0f95fe518428004b82630fd8ea06a53683c966d97180d5d2e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:37:30 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巴基斯坦連你們常在批評的中國印度 都有啊連非洲 埃及 南非南非共同體都有啊我們台灣的司法有比"},{"start":288.8,"end":316.716,"text":"印尼印度還落後有比埃及有比南非還落後嗎民主黨我們台灣的司法的公開透明度比這些國家都還落後嗎我們不是一直都是走路有風我們是魔幻聲嗎當好不容易往前跨了一步那到底司法院在怕什麼"},{"start":318.875,"end":320.994,"text":"警察官在怕什麼 有什麼見不得人的事情"},{"start":330.444,"end":358.008,"text":"今天副秘書長都講不出話還是不知道怎麼講我現在回答嗎請說我已經問你幾個月了你都是不敢回答還是不願回答因為委員一直繼續講所以我不知道我不敢打斷你請說是首先第一點2000年那個蘇建和案它並不是一個法庭直播它是一個延伸法庭那至於說它延伸法庭的那個做法當時事實上因為沒有一個立法依據就是很多那個做法是不是可以再進一步檢討就是可以"},{"start":358.288,"end":384.467,"text":"等一下我時間已經到了所以有兩個重點嘛對不對你說延伸直播那你至少做到這一個啊是不是這是你現在比這個還特鐵路耶它就是一個法庭直播的型態嘛它等於是第一時間出來的時候我們對著攝影機拍嘛那你至少做到這一點你連這一點都還做不到怎麼會這麼離譜呢好那更嚴重了我跟你講今天我聽了一個早上你們在請答我是媒體人出身的"},{"start":385.954,"end":407.614,"text":"這本來我們的法律裡面就明定啊有牽涉到人權或者一些機密的你就可以遮蔽啊我自己檢查現在有多久你稍微delay的大概30秒甚至10秒你都可以處理啦該蓋的東西 該遮蓋的東西都可以那台灣沒那麼浪漠欸你們講的好像洪水猛獸"},{"start":409.738,"end":435.599,"text":"你技術上也做得到 對不對以前都已經有 全世界也有從你民調去看七成以上的民眾結果你們現在今天到今天還在這邊硬拗我們是五前憲法的國家嘛立法院非常尊重司法院而且認為這是一個進步的立法 公開透明所以我們給了你很多的彈性跟尊重結果你們現在要踐踏的立法院跟名利又是對撞的"},{"start":440.489,"end":457.915,"text":"馬上要審預算啦 我跟你講 這個一定在預算裡面我們會好好反映出這次司法院踐踏的這個立法院也跟踐踏民意這個回去我再好好想一想 我也對著所有司法院的好朋友們喊話"},{"start":459.956,"end":485.414,"text":"當司法改革向前的一步在改革跟公開透明還有特特路25年還比不上印尼印度比不上埃及跟南非公開透明度而且違反了70以上民眾這個需求跟他們的這個期待這樣的司法有辦法得到人民的這個認同嗎司法已經非常脆弱了好 回去再好好思考 好不好 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時38分）謝謝主席。請副秘書長。"],["主席：好，有請王副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["張委員啓楷：副祕，法庭直播本來應該是司法改革的一大步，而且在所有的民調裡面，大概都有超過七成以上的絕對多數民眾要求要法庭直播，立法院也三讀通過了相關法律。結果你們現在不只踐踏了立法院，你們還踐踏了民意，跟七成以上的民眾對著幹，我現在就要進一步地提醒你：法庭直播在臺灣早就有了，你為什麼比以前還「倒退嚕」？你是這麼資深的司法人員，你也知道嘛，2000年審蘇建和案的時候，臺灣就首開先例，在法庭外面架設了電視機，當場就現場直播了！結果過了25年，同樣一個司法院，比25年前還「倒退嚕」，把好不容易三讀通過的法庭直播用黑布蓋起來！以前國防部在洪仲丘案的時候，連基礎的錄影都不願意公布，大家笑說是「國防布」，蓋了黑布，不是部會的「部」，是黑布的「布」。現在司法院變成什麼？也蓋了黑布嗎？我給你看一下影片，來，我們看一下當初是怎麼做法庭直播。","（播放影片）"],["張委員啓楷：副秘，這是2000年11月16日，那時候只有老三台，那怎樣做法庭直播？開庭的時候，在外面架一部電視機，所有的記者、攝影記者就直接第一時間直播，你們怎麼會「倒退嚕」？你是這麼資深的從業人員，同一個司法院，為什麼過了25年，我們往公開、透明在走，結果你們還抱持著保守跟傳統，而且還「倒退嚕」了25年，這是第一點。","第二點更嚴重，我為什麼今天給你看這個？沒有立法的時候，臺灣都已經可以有法庭直播了；現在立法完之後，你要再用黑布把它蓋起來，你看看你的那個辦法，你這樣怎麼對得起司法改革呢？怎麼對得起人民呢？柯文哲都不怕啊！民眾黨也不怕啊！司法院跟檢察官到底在怕什麼？怕任何不正訊問，有誘導、有脅迫、有一些不法的行為公諸於世嗎？為什麼連這個東西都要蓋呢？我剛剛給你看的是以前的影片，來，我們來看全世界。全世界各大洲都有法庭直播啊，在亞洲有新加坡、南韓、印尼、巴基斯坦，連你們常常在批評的中國、印度都有啊！連非洲的埃及、南非、南非共同體都有啊！我們臺灣的司法有比印尼、印度還落後？有比埃及、南非還落後嗎？副秘書長，我們臺灣司法的公開透明度比這些國家都還落後嗎？我們不是一直都是走路有風，我們不是模範生嗎？好不容易往前跨了一步，到底司法院在怕什麼？檢察官在怕什麼？有什麼見不得人的事情？今天副秘書長都講不出話，還是不知道怎麼講？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我現在要回答嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對，請說。我已經問你幾次，你都不答，是不敢回答，還是不願意回答？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為委員一直繼續講，所以我不敢打斷。"],["張委員啓楷：請說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。首先，第一點，2000年的蘇建和案，並不是一個法庭直播，而是一個延伸法庭；至於延伸法庭的那個做法，當時事實上因為沒有一個立法依據，很多做法是不是可以再進一步檢討……"],["張委員啓楷：停一下，我的時間已經到了。你說的是有兩個重點嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你說那是延伸直播，那你至少做到這一個啊，你現在做的比這個還「倒退嚕」！它就是一個法庭直播的型態，等於是第一時間出來的時候，我們對著攝影機拍，那你至少做到這一點，你連這一點都做不到，怎麼會這麼離譜呢？好，那更嚴重了。我跟你講，今天我聽了一個早上你們的詢答，我是媒體人出身的，我們的法律裡面本來就有明定，有牽涉到人權或一些機密的部分，你就可以遮蔽。所以你稍微delay 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不是只有在台南嘛對不對 而且我覺得你要訂立標準你不要把很多的問題全部留給地方政府那個整個標準來說 中央就應該複習這個角色嘛好不好"},{"start":338.975,"end":349.845,"text":"所以說呢光電板的我的問題就是你的滾動性的修正還有你要給明確的目標然後呢你告訴我說2035要給我1692個大安森林公園土地哪裡來這是要跨部會來否則的話光是一個目標然後告訴我目標我們人都不在了你還在一個目標你讓下面一任怎麼辦永續環境的經營是每一個人現場都需要有角色跟責任的好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時41分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長跟能源署長？"],["主席：我們請兩位。"],["龔部長明鑫：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長跟署長好。我想我們回到大樹和山光電場，當初的空拍圖震驚全國。目前來說的話，第二案場已經完全撤掉它的施工許可了，那第一呢？"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，第一案場是合法設置，但它中間有違規，所以我們要叫它拆除違規的部分，而且罰鍰150萬元。"],["柯委員志恩：是，它已經完工了。所以你們會不會發給它電業執照？會不會發？"],["李署長君禮：會，它第一期是合法設置的……"],["柯委員志恩：你會發？"],["李署長君禮：是的，第二期我們不會發……"],["柯委員志恩：你什麼時候發？"],["李署長君禮：第一期合法設置。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道。第一期你們什麼時候發？它有部分違規，你們拆除啊！你們第一期什麼時候發？"],["李署長君禮：它現在還沒有申請。它來申請，我們會……"],["柯委員志恩：所以它申請的話，你們會再看，然後……如果它完全合格，你們會發？"],["李署長君禮：對。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是要提醒哦！因為它完全是根據舊法，對不對？根據新法，位於山坡地面積達到規模像是15公頃以上，或者是裝置流量2萬瓩以上就需要。我們和山是舊案，但是你看看它的案場大概是51公頃，裝置流量是7萬瓩如果你給它核發的話，需不需要再一次環評？因為每一個情況都不一樣。當年2019年是為了要設置這麼大的綠電，說實在的，沒有經過環評，有那樣的時空背景，我們都不同意。但現在已經發生了這麼多的事情，距離村莊只有100公尺，大家都非常關切。所以你要發執照之前，還要不要再經過一次環評？"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，它如果重新提出申請，我們會就法令重新檢視。剛才委員指教的新舊法，我們也會在法律上重新看它到底是怎樣。"],["柯委員志恩：所以還不見得哦！你現在不敢承諾到底會不會再經過環評？"],["李署長君禮：我們要做法律上的分析，因為民眾申請，他有他一定的信賴保護……"],["柯委員志恩：了解！所以要不要再經過環評，你們目前是未確定？"],["李署長君禮：我們會再就法令上……整個啦！因為它這個如果要發執照，也不只環評一件事，我們會把整個案子再重新檢視。"],["柯委員志恩：好，所以目前聽起來不會是像過去舊法，只要是你們那時候的法規可以，你就發給執照，這次還會做全面的討論，是這樣沒有錯吧？"],["李署長君禮：是，每一個案子其實我們都會這樣做啦！"],["柯委員志恩：好！目前為止，每個人都非常關切光電板的問題。在2030年的時候，能源署有告訴我們光電的設置可能要到31.2GW，沒有錯嗎？目前為止，這目標還是嗎？"],["李署長君禮：是的，這個是我們努力的目標，我們希望能夠做到31.2GW。"],["柯委員志恩：好！部長，你知道嗎？2035年可能要到35.02GW，大概就是所謂的1,692個大安森林公園這麼多，我們現在看看有沒有辦法，包括土地怎麼找，這都是非常重要的問題。","我們先來看一下，到2025，距離目前只有多久時間？到2030年，你要31.2GW，現在是2025哦！到8月的時候，你的容量目前為止僅15.02，距離我們2030的目標還有16GW的落差哦！這是你們很大的落差。我們先不要看別的，光是今年1到8月我們僅增加0.74，跟去年比起來，去年大概是兩個GW，那怎麼辦？你們的產能一個個在往後！你們的目標設這麼多，到5年之後，一般業者認為到20就差不多了，你把它訂在30！有可能嗎？署長，你要不要做滾動式的修正？你要不要做修正？"],["李署長君禮：是，這是我們的目標，我們會努力來達成……"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得就目前來講，署長、部長，5年後可能你們都不在其位，可是你們如果用這些數據來告訴我們的話，都是在告訴我們是你們的目標！目標！永遠都在期望未來的一個目標！部長，你同意吧？這對我們未來來說，這其實不是太公平的，你應該是滾動式地不斷告訴我們。現在已經告訴你，今年跟去年比起來就是比較少，那未來該怎麼辦？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們還是會把這個目標當作目標來努力啦！事實上還有另外一個方式，就是汰舊換新的部分，因為過去的轉換效率大概只有十幾而已，現在可能都可以做到30，所以它會是超過原來的一倍以上，同樣的面積。"],["柯委員志恩：還有你剛剛說到的屋頂，我覺得你的誘因可以再增強，因為目前看起來，比起陸域跟水域來說，屋頂應該是比較OK，大家接受度比較高嘛！你可以從這個角度來嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們會主動地加碼這個……"],["柯委員志恩：還有最後一個部分，光電板的部分，你那時候公開承諾，萬一水庫光電板有任何疑義的話會暫緩。那時候你是在對臺南地區，而這個承諾有對全國嗎？全國萬一地方政府有疑義的話，目前來說都是暫緩嗎？還是只針對臺南？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個SOP本來是適用於全臺灣。"],["柯委員志恩：全國嘛！不是只有在臺南嘛！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["柯委員志恩：而且我覺得你要訂立標準，你不要把很多的問題全部留給地方政府，針對整個標準來說，中央就應該要負起這個角色嘛！好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，沒有錯。"],["柯委員志恩：所以光電板的部分，我的問題就是滾動性地修正，還有你要給明確的目標，然後你告訴我2035年要給我1,692個大安森林公園，土地哪裡來？這是要跨部會，否則光是一個目標，只告訴我目標，我們人都不在了，你還在一個目標，你讓下面一任怎麼辦？永續環境經營是現場每一個人都需要有角色跟責任的，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請高金素梅委員，請詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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請部長"},{"start":86.87,"end":109.446,"text":"因為我剛剛看到委員的質詢是當時陳政次回應有關於更正就是說以總統府的那個說明為主但是委員剛剛提到是說我們要更正是要去駐韓的代表處要表達對這件事沒有啦我再跟你講一次過程上一次我問他的時候"},{"start":110.707,"end":136.619,"text":"說有更正他說答應要錄出再繼續追蹤我說一出更正消息可以把副本給我嗎陳明琦說沒問題結果回覆了我以後我一定去double check我double check的結果就是根本沒有更正你左手邊我又紅框框起來的是你們外交部回覆給我的內容右手邊是我查證的結果根本就沒有更正啊"},{"start":137.868,"end":159.025,"text":"如果委員如您所說我們有去交涉更正沒有更正也應該要回答委員如果我們去交涉而要求他更正有更正也要來說明所以我會在這件事情後續去追蹤這是上一趴的進度上一趴陳明祺就是這樣跟我講的啊我現在的問題是根本沒更正啊"},{"start":160.22,"end":181.23,"text":"那騙我說有事實上就沒有啊沒關係啦我不要一直在這個問題上面打轉啦部長也知道我的風格我一定追到底的啦回去以後請部長徹查瞭解這到底是怎麼回事是在自欺欺人還是在欺騙我還是覺得用混的就可以過去一個禮拜之內以書面回覆我可以嗎"},{"start":182.352,"end":206.137,"text":"可以好 謝謝下一個問題我現在我們其實都支持中華民國台灣對外的外交那我們看過去從2016年以來我們邦交國的數量是越來越少當然這是中共的打壓全台灣人都知道中共打壓也不是現在開始中共打壓台灣很久了"},{"start":207.413,"end":231.528,"text":"過去四五十年來中共都在打壓台灣2016年以後可能打壓的力道比較強所以讓我們邦交國的數字從21個掉到現在剩12個今年我看了你們外交部的預算有援外的預算援外的預算該怎麼花花在什麼目的用途上面這個我們到審預算的時候好好講"},{"start":232.54,"end":237.743,"text":"但是我光從整個據實際上面的總數上面來看2016年 員外的經費是90億"},{"start":242.97,"end":247.173,"text":"然後到了2019年大概都是90幾億到2020年開始變成100多億到2025年的時候是118億結果到2026年的時候暴漲到202億這樣子的經費這樣子的預算部長你要交給國人的成績單是什麼"},{"start":266.643,"end":282.75,"text":"我跟委員報告我們當然把12個邦交國收好以外很多理念相近的國家像中東歐包括菲律賓我們也要加強你的意思是說要更多錢12個邦交國才能收好嗎我們只有邦交國其實現在的任務業務也比以前多以外我們在擴展"},{"start":283.61,"end":298.9,"text":"非邦交國 但事實上它的重要性也還邦交國比如說我剛剛講菲律賓 那榮邦計畫我們相對來講 其實立法院也通過對ODA希望要增加但我是有計畫的 不是說我是增加了那麼多預算 而是要做什麼事情"},{"start":299.6,"end":318.661,"text":"我想這個部分我跟我相信你一定有計畫沒關係我們審預算的時候再慢慢來看因為我們大的picture總是要讓台灣人民知道台灣人民很關心希望台灣在國際社會發光發亮我們支持我們的外交台灣人也都用稅收"},{"start":319.602,"end":326.33,"text":"去讓我們的官員去做外交總是希望看到成績嘛從2016年的90幾億現在到2026年暴漲到200多億我們總是要告訴國人說我們打算要交出什麼成績單才能夠正當化這個錢啊"},{"start":335.14,"end":354.829,"text":"那要不然我如果給兩百多億跟給九十億交出來的成績單一樣那大家就會問啊中間的一百多億跑到哪裡去啦這就延續到了我之前一直跟部長所強調的我反對金錢外交我反對金錢外交我反對金錢外交啊我講過很多次啦"},{"start":356.036,"end":371.688,"text":"當初民進黨政府也說要用價值外交嘛那價值外交後來看價值外交恐怕沒有辦法合理的說明外交部的一些具體作為所以現在呢用了一個新的名詞叫總和外交了價值外交不談了啦"},{"start":372.548,"end":392.495,"text":"因為蔡英文總統在講的價值外交我看了很多次嘛現在有個新名詞 總和外交總和外交裡面有一個部分叫價值外交我幫部長回答了啦對啦 總和外交裡面有價值外交那當然還有一些其他的東西嘛然後其他的東西當然就會涉及到錢嘛來 我們來看一下錢卡貝 獨裁者的金庫這個是我那個時候"},{"start":399.039,"end":422.339,"text":"在吹哨者協會跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCRP我們合作的企劃我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿我們跟國際的反貪腐組織一起關心台灣作為最大股東的中美洲銀行錢跑到哪裡去了是真的去輔助弱勢小孩婦女"},{"start":423.42,"end":436.174,"text":"還是跑去被胡搞瞎搞變成所謂獨裁者的金庫這個標題其實不是我想的這個標題是OCCRP用英文表示 翻成中文當然 因為這個樣子"},{"start":439.497,"end":465.771,"text":"之前的總裁也下台了嘛 直接被轟下台嘛最近新的總裁來做一些改革你看我功課做得多好 新的總裁來你還跟他合照 我都準備好了我就知道你會這樣講所以我知道你跟新的總裁有碰面嘛然後他們新的辦事處搬到天母使館特區嘛你也有去嘛 剩下不到一成"},{"start":466.351,"end":479.866,"text":"蛤 我說也讓他租金改革啦你說委員講的他內部外部都要進行改革你知不知道卡貝本來在台灣這邊的辦事處在哪101啊101嘛 你知不知道那時候裝潢花多少錢我們現在就是把他改"},{"start":484.276,"end":500.311,"text":"換到地方我們那個天母那個地方租金現在就剩下十分之一而且就近跟我們卡貝的國家包括瓜地馬拉貝里斯可以合處辦公大家一起合作我同意委員之前的這些這個指導的意見"},{"start":501.132,"end":528.131,"text":"那我們就是 當然要善用我們在卡貝還有包括歐銀 亞銀的我們的這一些資金要用於我們的榮邦計畫 這個是一個第二個就是要把這個改革要大幅度的進行這樣子會比較快啦2021年在101租了一大片辦公室裝潢花上千萬裝潢花三千萬年租金七百萬"},{"start":529.67,"end":554.995,"text":"那個時候我跟他們一起在調查的時候我看到卡貝裡面的這個內臟我看了臉都綠了台灣是第一大股東啊如果不關我們台灣的事情我管這些中美洲國家他們愛怎麼亂花錢他們家的事啊我關心的是台灣是第一大股東啊台灣人有沒有被當盤子啊錢拿去中美洲銀行給他們這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":555.97,"end":578.965,"text":"我看了裝潢費高達上千萬年租金七百萬我的老天啊在台灣是有什麼特殊重要的任務任務很龐雜會搞成這個樣子啊那但是我也不是看紙上的資料以後就在那邊腦補篇故事啊我那時候做了什麼事那個時候一定是實地考察實地考察跑去Cafe 101的大樓看"},{"start":580.425,"end":599.719,"text":"哇 裡面真的是氣派豪華裝潢非常的好啊但是有個特色 我跟部長報告叫做空蕩蕩很氣派的辦公室裝潢非常的好加上司機總共多少人用那個辦公室空間部長你知不知道"},{"start":602.686,"end":616.165,"text":"五個人五個人 搶運獎搞起來五個人在101大樓好氣派的辦公室裡面都沒有人是這樣在花台灣納稅人的錢"},{"start":617.569,"end":641.856,"text":"當初101開幕的時候我們也有大官去拍照啦就像你這一次到天母特區跟他拍照一樣我們那個是合宿辦公啦 比較便宜啦是啦 所以我就肯定你嘛我肯定你的改革嘛上一次鋪張浪費嘛幫我們當盤子嘛現在終於發現只要十分之一的租金啊這個就是我要跟部長交換了這個就是監督的價值這個就是監督的力量不要再說齁"},{"start":646.857,"end":670.251,"text":"哇 不給你們錢去揮霍就是不支持台灣的外交中美洲銀行對台灣很重要有國際重要的戰略位置不給他錢就是不支持台灣的外交我們當然支持台灣的外交我不支持的是什麼我不支持的是這樣子胡搞瞎搞所以接下來在預算審查的時候我們一定就事論事好好進行實質的審查好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我上一次質詢的議題，韓國的民族日報說緊急戒嚴的時候他們有個司令官來台灣尋求支持，然後我問你們有沒有抗議？是不是有要求他更正？你們上次跟我說有要求他更正，然後在更正以後會通知我，這個是我們上一次質詢的進度。你們後續回復我的東西，我一定會追，你們說有更正，那問題是什麼？問題是人家根本沒有理你啊，那你怎麼會跟我說有更正？從頭到尾沒有更正啊，現在網站上面的日期跟內容一模一樣，從你們回復我到現在，到目前為止沒有任何更動啊，人家根本沒有更正啊，你們怎麼會跟我說人家有更正？我看不懂啊！現在是在騙我嗎？騙我會有什麼幫助嗎？對於我們台灣的信譽造成這麼大的傷害，你們說有更正是在自我欺騙嗎？請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：因為我剛剛看到委員的質詢，當時是由政次回應。有關於更正是以總統府的說明為主，但是委員剛剛提到是說我們更正是要去駐韓代表處表達對這件事情……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我再跟你講一次過程。上一次我問他的時候說有更正，他說答應要露出、再繼續追蹤，我問一出更正消息可以把副本給我嗎？陳明祺說沒問題，結果回復了我以後，我一定去double check，我double check的結果就是根本沒有更正。左手邊我用紅框框起來的是你們外交部回復給我的內容，右手邊是我查證的結果，根本就沒有更正啊！"],["林部長佳龍：如果如您所說我們有去交涉更正，而沒有更正也應該要回答，如果我們去交涉且要求他更正，有更正也要來說明，所以我會在這件事情後續去追蹤。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！這是上一part的進度，上一part陳明祺就是這樣跟我講的啊！我現在的問題是根本沒更正啊，騙我說有，事實上就沒有啊，沒關係啦！我不要一直在這個問題上面打轉，部長也知道我的風格，我一定追到底的，回去以後請部長徹查瞭解這到底是怎麼回事。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：是在自欺欺人？還是在欺騙我？還是覺得用混的就可以過去？一個禮拜之內以書面回復我，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。","下一個問題，現在我們其實都支持中華民國台灣對外的外交，我們看過去從2016年以來，我們邦交國的數量是越來越少，當然這是中共的打壓，全台灣人都知道，中共打壓也不是現在開始，中共打壓台灣很久了，過去四、五十年來中共都在打壓台灣，在2016年以後可能打壓的力道比較強，所以讓我們邦交國的數字從21個掉到現在剩12個。今年我看了你們外交部的預算，有援外的預算，援外的預算該怎麼花、花在什麼目的用途上面，這個我們到審預算的時候好好講。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：但是我光從實際上面的總數來看，2016年援外的經費是90億，到了2019年大概都是九十幾億，到2020年開始變成一百多億，到2025年的時候是118億，到2026年的時候暴漲到202億，這樣子的經費，這樣子的預算，部長，你要交給國人的成績單是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，我們當然把12個邦交國守好以外，很多理念相近的國家像中東歐包括菲律賓，我們也要加強……"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說要更多錢，12個邦交國才能守好嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們既有的12個邦交國其實現在的任務、業務也比以前多以外，我們再擴展非邦交國，事實上它的重要性不亞於邦交國，比如說我剛剛講的菲律賓，關於榮邦計畫，其實立法院也通過對ODA……希望要增加，但我們是有計畫的，不是說我去增加了那麼多預算，而是要做什麼事情，我想這個部分我跟……"],["黃委員國昌：我相信你一定有計畫，沒關係，我們審預算的時候再慢慢來看。因為我們大的picture總是要讓台灣人民知道，台灣人民也很關心，希望台灣在國際社會發光發亮嘛，我們支持我們的外交，台灣人也都用稅收讓我們的官員去做外交，總是希望看到成績嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：從2016年的九十幾億，現在到2026年暴漲到兩百多億，我們總是要告訴國人們打算要交出什麼成績單，才能夠正當化這個錢啊，那要不然我如果給兩百多億跟給九十億交出來的成績單一樣，那大家就會問中間的一百多億跑到哪裡去了，這就延續到了我之前一直跟部長所強調的，我反對金錢外交，我反對金錢外交啊，我反對金錢外交啊，我講過很多次，當初民進黨政府也說要用「價值外交」嘛，後來看價值外交恐怕沒有辦法合理說明外交部的一些具體作為，所以現在用了一個新的名詞叫「總合外交」，價值外交不談了啦！"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！"],["黃委員國昌：蔡英文總統在講的價值外交，我看了很多次嘛，現在有個新名詞「總合外交」，總合外交裡面有一個部分叫「價值外交」，我幫部長回答了啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，總合外交裡面有價值外交，那當然還有一些其他的東西嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：總合外交還有其他……"],["黃委員國昌：其他的東西當然就會涉及到錢嘛，來，我們來看一下錢。CABEI，獨裁者的金庫，這是我那個時候在吹哨者協會跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCRP，我們合作的企劃，我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿，我一毛錢都沒有跟政府拿，我們跟國際的反貪腐組織一起關心，台灣作為最大股東的中美洲銀行，錢跑到哪裡去了？是真的去扶助弱勢小孩、婦女？還是跑去被胡搞瞎搞，變成所謂獨裁者的金庫？這個標題其實不是我想的，這個標題是OCCRP用英文表示，翻成中文，當然因為這個樣子，CABEI之前的總裁也下臺了，直接被轟下臺嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對，最近新來的總裁有做一些改革。"],["黃委員國昌：你看，我功課做得多好，新的總裁來，你還跟他合照，我都準備好了，我就知道你會這樣講，所以我知道你跟新的總裁有碰面嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：他們新的辦事處搬到天母使館特區……"],["林部長佳龍：租金減少，剩下不到一成。"],["黃委員國昌：蛤？"],["林部長佳龍：我說，讓它租金減少，改革啦！委員講的，它的內部和外部都要進行改革。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道CABEI本來在台灣這邊的辦事處在哪？"],["林部長佳龍：101啊！"],["黃委員國昌：101，你知不知道那時候裝潢花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：反正我們現在就是把它換到天母那個地方，租金現在就剩下十分之一，而且就近跟我們CABEI的國家包括瓜地馬拉、貝里斯可以合署辦公，大家一起合作。我同意委員之前指導的意見，我們再來就是要善用我們在CABEI，還有包括歐銀、亞銀，我們這一些資金要用於我們的榮邦計畫，這是一個；第二個就是要大幅度的進行……"],["黃委員國昌：我直接跟部長講會比較快啦。2021年在101租了一大片辦公室，裝潢花上千萬，裝潢花上千萬，年租金700萬，那個時候我跟他們一起在調查，我看到CABEI裡面的內帳，我看了臉都綠了，台灣是第一大股東，如果不關我們台灣的事情，我管這些中美洲國家他們愛怎麼亂花錢是他們家的事，我關心的是，台灣是第一大股東，台灣人有沒有被當「盤子」，錢拿去中美洲銀行給他們這樣胡搞瞎搞，我看了裝潢費高達上千萬，年租金700萬，我老天啊！在台灣是有什麼特殊重要的任務？任務很龐雜，所以搞成這個樣子啊？但我也不是看了紙上的資料以後就在那邊腦補編故事！我那時候做了什麼事？就去實地考察，我跑去CABEI位在101大樓的辦公室一看。哇！裡面真的是氣派豪華，裝潢非常的好！但是有個特色我要跟部長報告，就是空蕩蕩！很氣派的辦公室，裝潢非常好，加上司機總共有多少人在使用那個辦公室的空間，部長你知不知道？"],["林部長佳龍：你這邊有寫。"],["黃委員國昌：連司機加起來是5個人，在101大樓，好氣派的辦公室，裡面都沒有人，是這樣在花台灣納稅人的錢？當初101開幕的時候也有大官去拍照，就像你這次到天母特區跟他拍照一樣。"],["林部長佳龍：我那個是合署辦公，比較便宜啦。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！所以我就肯定你嘛！我肯定你的改革！上一任鋪張浪費，把我們當盤子，現在終於發現只要十分之一的租金，這就是我要跟部長交換的意見！這個就是監督的價值、監督的力量！不要再說不給你們錢去揮霍，就是不支持台灣的外交！中美洲銀行對台灣很重要，有國際重要的戰略位置，不給它錢，就是不支持台灣的外交？我們當然支持台灣的外交！我不支持的是什麼？我不支持的是這樣子胡搞瞎搞！所以接下來在預算審查的時候，我們一定就事論事，好好進行實質的審查，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","請洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請林倩綺、林倩綺，林倩綺委員不在。","請林憶君委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","賴惠員","林德福","黃國昌","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「近期台美關係及關稅談判進展」，併請行政院經貿談判辦公室、經\n濟部、農業部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00006"}}},{"id":"164582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daf3d15ea6a39d5c62e072f7c27276b8ae83c966d97180d5d2ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:35:21 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謝謝主席 也要麻煩我們郭部長我們再請龔部長能源署長也可以陪一下 可能會比較熟悉郭部長我今天跟您討論一下就是上次七月的時候這個屏東交通外海太陽光電浮台試驗場域案的後續那我不是要跟你討論執行的東西好或不好而是後續的處理問題跟誠實的問題"},{"start":30.627,"end":59.481,"text":"经济部那时候在7月多的时候有发新闻稿表示业者已经在台风来之前已经拆除了光电板请问一下我们经济部发这个新闻稿这件事情的时候是业者口头跟我们说还是业者有提供一些客观的一个资讯给我们经济部是这个有照片那事实上我们发这个新闻是说他的光电板已经都拆走但他留在海上的是福台那是福台不是光电板"},{"start":60.658,"end":71.473,"text":"因為到現在目前為止我想包括當初有許多的委員都跟我們的經濟部要當初拆卸的照片或者是說現在光電板到底在哪裡那現在我們能源署有辦法提供嗎"},{"start":72.737,"end":93.434,"text":"我們可以請業者那些光電板業者收回去了他儲藏在他自己儲存的地方有提供給我們能源署嗎我們沒有因為對我們來講我們沒有需要他提供這個資料但是我們有現場的照片就是說他是福台他上面是沒有太陽光電板的那你們可以提供這照片吧"},{"start":95.057,"end":121.614,"text":"這個要我們來跟業者來索取因為當初社會討論很廣泛那一直懷疑說有沒有猜你們一直說有猜但是又沒有辦法提供照片所以後續我們經濟部應該可以提供我們來跟業者確認日期這是業者的資料那跟委員報告就是說當時是福台那後來受到風災吹到海上來吹到岸上來的我們收集到的也全部都是福台並沒有任何的"},{"start":121.994,"end":146.926,"text":"太陽光電比較重會沉那我想確認一下業者你們能不能去確認一下因為每一個光電板應該都有它的序號對不對光電板都有序號每一個序號所以它當初那個暗場的光電板也都有登錄嘛對不對序號是光電板出廠的時候都會有嘛那它建置在現場是哪些序號在現場其實這裡都追蹤的到嘛對不對"},{"start":148.777,"end":162.434,"text":"因為他現在收回去了所以他現場並沒有對 原本放在海上的嘛原本放在海上的這是他購買的他購買的太陽能板應該能夠追查到他說原本要放在海上的這些光電板的序號我們應該都要有才對"},{"start":164.046,"end":179.737,"text":"我們有辦法去做後續的集合確認一下他所說光電板放在哪一邊那些光電板的序號跟當初申請加東外海的這些光電板的序號去對一個集合確認這些光電板真的都有收起來在他現在所說的倉庫裡面這點做得到嗎"},{"start":182.457,"end":204.748,"text":"這個因為它是一個實驗計畫我們所以當時並沒有去登記它的序號是多少那這個我們可以跟業者來要求看看環境部一定有台電也一定有應該是沒有啦因為它是試驗計畫它整個環境部就規範每一個太陽能板都必須要有序號你才能夠並連接電啊"},{"start":206.857,"end":227.171,"text":"每一個出廠都有序號然後你要繳回匯金啊所以你在哪裡本來就是一套環境部那時候都一直在說明每一塊供電板一定都追蹤得到它在哪裡然後後續怎麼處置你現在跟我說序號找不到它這一個不是商業經營它是一個實驗計畫實驗計畫就不用序號嗎"},{"start":231.394,"end":251.036,"text":"實驗計畫就出所有的太陽盲板那你怎麼追蹤這些實驗場的序號這些光電板後續要怎麼處理包括後續的回收這都是要靠序號來追蹤啊只要他業者不丟棄的話那你怎麼知道他有沒有丟棄你沒有序號你怎麼知道他有沒有丟棄所以我們有序號的意義就是說如果他有丟棄到外面"},{"start":252.017,"end":266.288,"text":"最重要的意義就是追蹤嘛對不對那既然我們現在國家有這個序號的一個制度那我們應該就可以靠我們的序號去追蹤當初應該在海上的光電板現在到底在哪邊他說在哪邊我們應該也可以去做一個集合這應該是非常簡單的一件事情"},{"start":267.829,"end":282.7,"text":"這個序號是我們如果查到他有丟棄置在任何一個地方我們可以從這一個序號去追蹤他的來源好沒關係我剛剛講的你們能不能做到就是依照序號去查當初在海上的光電板現在到底在哪邊是不是業者有誠實的來做我們回報"},{"start":283.661,"end":300.585,"text":"可不可以去做后续的稽查因为它是试验计划我们没有登记它的需要但是我们可以来咨询这些业者因为试验计划它本来试验完成业者就要把所有的浮台跟光电板回收回他的工厂他如果有遗落在外的"},{"start":300.945,"end":314.932,"text":"我們就可以從那個需要去追蹤到哪裡依照這條線索去找出來那包括我想確認一下這個福台計畫我們補助的金額是只有福台嗎還是整個計畫有沒有去把它做這個拆分"},{"start":316.833,"end":344.726,"text":"他整個計畫是當然有福台跟太陽能板而且他要在海上做對所以我有一個疑問假設現在的這些當初補助的經費裡面包含福台包括光電板現在計畫終止了那這些光電板如果業者一去他他處使用的話這有沒有違法的一個問題所以我才要我們的能源署盡快的去追蹤這些能源這些光電板他現在到底在哪邊是跟委員報告他的計畫一個是環境污染的問題還沒有終止"},{"start":345.066,"end":372.568,"text":"一個是我們補助的問題補助的東西他就只能在這邊用不能夠拿到其他場域用這是絕對的規範 這絕對沒有錯吧我們沒有補助他去構置這些東西你就是整個計畫包含嘛好不好 沒關係時間到了也不要再讓大家太多的時間就依照序號去做這兩件事情去追蹤他的目前的最終的流向在哪確認他到底有沒有一致他的暗場使用好不好 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我請主席長還有財政部次長好 請主席長還有阮次長委員好兩位首長好我想大家都非常關心的還是財政部昨天再邀了地方政府討論財化法那昨天開會的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":33.771,"end":57.123,"text":"昨天我覺得是大家有一個非常不錯的一個交換意見最起碼就是就整個分配的架構大家是有共識我看到你們的是說統籌款跟一般性補助款不低於7177就是2015的目標嘛就是我們立法院立法的原意對吧"},{"start":58.304,"end":69.92,"text":"但是統籌性統籌款是統籌款然後一般性補助款還有計畫性補助款這中間的關係尤其是今年你們預算已經編了請問這個新的討論跟你的預算編列會做什麼樣的調整"},{"start":74.403,"end":87.46,"text":"我們基本上我昨天溝通的是針對統籌分配稅統籌款統籌款那部分補助款那部分由總署那邊來負責所以補助款就是主計處的對"},{"start":89.443,"end":110.446,"text":"那基本上昨天就是對剛剛講對分配市長啊我還是一樣我剛問的是預算已經編了明年各地方政府也編了預算現在立法院雖然還沒開始審但是你們將來這個法說年底才要送來請問我預算審了你法又來修那到底是預算先過還是法要先過啊"},{"start":111.748,"end":124.921,"text":"是這樣子 你了解我的意思嗎我知道你的法又在修 我的預算又這樣編然後法又修來的時候又不一樣立法院也不見得會通過你們的版本所以到時候一定變成一個又要追加減 是嗎"},{"start":126.688,"end":141.324,"text":"如果是我們就是說會在這個年底前送修法案的話到年底前只剩下71天116年立法院正要審預算所以我不知道要怎麼審"},{"start":142.365,"end":169.646,"text":"對 但是我們這個案子一定是從116年以後才開始用不會影響到115年不影響 所以我們預算可以照審你的法可以照過你的意思是這樣我還是要回到原點一年多了立法院這一屆一上任就要修裁划法這一年多你們說一直在找地方政府開了幾次會 到昨天還在開會我實在不知道你們到現在為止還拿不出自己的版本到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":170.206,"end":189.999,"text":"這一年多都是白搭都在睡覺不會跟委員報告其實我們現在積極在做你們積極在做這我已經聽了一年了耳朵都開始長繭了我在說年底一定有版本一定有相關未來所有的可長可久卓院長口中說請鄭麗君副院長來做相關的統籌請問你們開過幾次會跟鄭副院長"},{"start":195.427,"end":200.158,"text":"我們基本上我剛才講過就是說我們爭取能夠我問你們開過幾次會我們開過四次會了"},{"start":203.024,"end":225.175,"text":"我問跟鄭副院長開過幾次會?跟副院長那邊開,那個算不清楚了開柴化法的會開過幾次?開過很多次會,我已經記不出來多少次什麼時候開始開的?開到現在還在開啊?就一直在溝通,一直在精進相關的法案的內容好,那昨天這個會,主計處有沒有參加?"},{"start":226.989,"end":249.657,"text":"有有有有參加主席長沒有參加沒有那都是比較其實技術層面的同仁在在在我的想法很簡單啦就是只有71天你們自己溝通你還有一個東西叫做跟立法院溝通我們現在沒有聽到你們要跟我們溝通的意思而且過程裡面我一直問版本到現在為止只看到上次院長在"},{"start":251.961,"end":262.268,"text":"議長說我有版本在手上這個版本到現在沒有見過光次長很簡單我們在這個財政委員會這總要見公婆的啦時間到了"},{"start":263.356,"end":289.826,"text":"不管省預算也好還是要財化法的版本也好都必須要在這邊做審查另外國民黨本身的公私爭議的還有補助款的爭議它都有版本而且都進付二讀了11月中就可以表決了所以到時候表決通過的是立法院的版本你們的版本又擺在後面了這才是我覺得行政機關最大的問題這是我所以我跟你不要讓這種事情發生吧再來善後善後再善後"},{"start":290.706,"end":315.527,"text":"要嘛就快一點要嘛就跟立法院好好溝通怎麼樣在這個財化法上面能夠找到一個最大的共識而不是只是你們在閉門造局當然當然當然所以謝謝委員的指教這個也是我們未來要處理的事情現在看起來就是你們慢慢慢慢拖拖拖才會拖到今天這樣的僵局到現在還要去跟地方政府開會地方政府來這邊開過幾次會"},{"start":318.446,"end":334.211,"text":"重視人家就不會拖到現在重視人家的意見就不會讓地方政府還要到你們那邊來哭窮如果立法院沒有幫他們通過他們永遠在看你們的臉色我覺得今天的問題是行政機關請尊重地方政府什麼叫財政自主"},{"start":334.625,"end":349.746,"text":"我覺得應該地方政府不是看中央的臉色不要把它當成你們的下屬機關大家是一種合作關係這是中華民國是大家的這個我完全贊同所以財政地方自主是地方自治非常重要的精神"},{"start":350.347,"end":374.075,"text":"那中央是要去怎麼樣協助或平衡但是不是把它當成你們的籌碼去做分配這個很重要接下來次長我還有一個問題我們現在很多政府的政策是鼓勵所謂的終身學習再次進修目前新的世界已經來臨"},{"start":376.076,"end":405.049,"text":"尤其是像人工智慧 區塊鏈各種新興的技術那現在全時的工作者都會選擇再回到學校進修不過我們目前為止台灣有非常多的大學開了在職專班還有EMBA但是在我們的稅法裡面對於這些終身學習好像沒有給予特別的優惠或者是說我們現在的所謂的扣除額裡面它有一定的限制所以"},{"start":406.417,"end":419.025,"text":"如果我的小孩在念大學我可以扣但我自己念書不能扣你覺得這樣合理嗎跟委員報告目前的稅法規定對這是不是我們應該要做一些檢討"},{"start":423.109,"end":446.12,"text":"所以我简单的让我说明一下目前的规定就是说目前我们对子女的教育补助费每年是2.5万元这个是子女很少啦针对他的抚养心思现在念书怎么可能只有2.5万元所以说刚才委员提到本人那一部分那我们是目前是做法是说从他的薪资目前是用薪资特别扣除"},{"start":446.34,"end":474.315,"text":"去扣或者是列舉扣除額比如說你職業專用的服裝進修訓練費或職業上工具的支出這個我都知道但是它有很多的限制嘛第一個要跟工作有關的技能我如果是念法務我要去念法律它才能扣但是我去念法務我去念EMBA可能就不能扣我的意思是說終身學習不應該做這些限制第二個扣減的比例很低因為薪資特別扣除額扣得比較多所以在美國它其實有一個終身學習"},{"start":477.022,"end":500.597,"text":"減稅額每一個夫妻合併申報不超過18萬美元的話本人配偶受撫養人的大學研究所跟專業學位都可以申請扣減最高限額抵稅金2000美金也就是6萬元這個我認為我們也會在裁判會來提案因為我覺得終身學習尤其是我自己在讀書不能扣我的小孩讀書可以扣這很奇怪"},{"start":501.597,"end":527.627,"text":"那金額也不高但是接下來的世界我剛剛說非常的新連我們現在包括我們這個年紀我們可能都要去學一下AI了這些東西都不會是停下來的所以委員這個概念很好啦但是我是覺得就是說我們會提案那也請你們開始研議這部分的金額跟相關的稅損有可能有減少多少我相信不會太多"},{"start":528.027,"end":553.604,"text":"我們到時候會精算但是我覺得目前我們是希望因為現在扣除額實在太多了就造成就是說百分之將近一半的人這就是大家都因為中華民國萬萬歲只能一直找扣除額不然要怎麼辦現在碩士在職專班有5.3萬人也就是說這是國家很重要的人才苦如果大家願意去讀書我們應該是鼓勵的好嗎"},{"start":554.645,"end":558.653,"text":"我們當然一定要鼓勵但是是不是一定要用稅的方式好最後一個問題主席長我想問一下"},{"start":562.242,"end":591.036,"text":"還有財政部賴總統8年要直接興建13萬戶的社會住宅到現在所謂的直接興辦社會住宅的百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫聽說還沒有核定沒有核定的原因是各部會審查意見還是希望內政部說要有更多的錢去買地但是主計總署反對請問是主計總署在反對蓋社宅嗎"},{"start":592.681,"end":615.638,"text":"我們是沒有反對說蓋社宅可是你們說要尊潔減少國庫財務負擔所以到現在沒有核定的原因是這個嗎不是因為事實上就是說你租屋補貼和建社宅這兩個到底要採哪一個或者是說所以不是主計總署的意見那賴總統的政見要不要執行啊"},{"start":616.932,"end":639.063,"text":"這是要執行的但是就是說我執行的方式要用什麼方式來對它最容易合訂計畫都有這麼難嗎至少先合訂然後大家去找裁員本來就是這樣啊你連合訂計畫都沒有那連合訂都不合訂所以根本不知道要怎麼辦現在有方法了嗎百萬社宅蓋不蓋嘛"},{"start":640.741,"end":654.575,"text":"她是社宅她不是她百萬的一個包括租屋補貼嘛租屋補貼嘛租屋制裁計畫辦不辦嘛這個計畫是她的總統政見到現在一年了還在指紋樓梯響"},{"start":656.311,"end":667.503,"text":"所以25萬裡面分為就是我都知道細節我只問你們這個計劃要不要辦還是什麼時候會核定還是主席處一開始就說不要是誰在打是誰在停"},{"start":671.99,"end":691.601,"text":"我問各部會 各部會說是主計處的意見反對啊那什麼時候要給我答案我們這個會期要審預算啦所以我想知道這個百萬社宅住宅基金的相關的計畫尤其是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫"},{"start":693.496,"end":721.377,"text":"今年年底會不會有個計畫有沒有一個完整的計畫還是你主計處告訴給我一個你們的意見完整的給我這個部分就是說內政部他是怎樣我們是再來跟他一個我們希望如果是政府要做主計處不應該是那個阻礙的人我們沒有阻礙我們只是提供更好的分析給他參考財政部也一樣剛剛講沒有錢請問你們要去找錢才有辦法做這件事聽起來是這樣"},{"start":722.418,"end":727.843,"text":"所以財政部的立場呢我們要不要支持百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫呢"},{"start":728.973,"end":757.79,"text":"因為這個就是健全這個房市市場的一部分嘛所以基本上它是一個國家的政策一年了這個計畫連影子都沒有這很離譜啊好不好兩位你們身為財主機關我覺得如果我們百萬家庭的租屋計畫沒有裁員那你們就要大聲的去向其他單位說大家要怎麼來想辦法而不是只是提了一個空殼的計畫好嗎沒有核定這件事情很離譜啊好 謝謝"},{"start":760.185,"end":775.167,"text":"好 謝謝黃森山委員我想財政部跟主席處這一部分剛剛黃委員的這個質詢的內容這一部分應該跟行政院來好好溝通信訴核定這是賴總統的一個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時27分）謝謝主席，我請主計長，還有財政部次長。"],["主席：好，請主計長，還有阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，兩位首長好。我想大家都非常關心的，還是財政部昨天再邀了地方政府討論財劃法。昨天開會的狀況怎麼樣？有什麼具體的進展？"],["阮次長清華：昨天大家有一個非常不錯的交換意見，最起碼就整個分配的架構大家是有共識，比如說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我看到你們是說統籌款跟一般性補助款不低於7,177億，就是2025的目標嘛！就是我們立法院立法的原意，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：嗯。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是統籌款是統籌款，然後一般性補助款，還有計畫性補助款，這中間的關係，尤其是今年你們預算已經編了，請問這個新的討論跟你的預算編列，會做什麼樣的調整？"],["阮次長清華：我們基本上，我昨天溝通的是針對統籌分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：統籌款？"],["阮次長清華：統籌款那部分，補助款那部分由總處那邊來負責……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以補助款就是主計處的？"],["阮次長清華：對，基本上昨天就是剛剛講的對分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，我還是一樣，我剛剛問的是預算已經編了，明年各地方政府也編了預算。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在立法院雖然還沒開始審，但是你們說這個法年底才要送來。請問我預算審了，你法又來修，那到底是預算先過，還是法要先過？"],["阮次長清華：是這樣子，如果是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你了解我的意思嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：你的法又在修，我的預算又這樣編，然後法修來的時候又不一樣，立法院也不見得會通過你們的版本，所以到時候一定變成又要追加減，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：如果在年底前送修法案的話，原則上是116年……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，到年底前只剩下71天。"],["阮次長清華：116年……"],["黃委員珊珊：立法院正要審預算，所以我不知道要怎麼審？"],["阮次長清華：對，但是我們這個案子一定是從116年以後才開始用，不會影響到115年。"],["黃委員珊珊：不影響，所以我們預算可以照審，你的法可以照過，你的意思是這樣？我還是要回到原點，一年多了，立法院這一屆一上任就要修財劃法，這一年多你們說一直在找地方政府，開了幾次會，到昨天還在開會。我實在不知道，你們到現在為止還拿不出自己的版本，到底是怎麼回事？這一年多都是白搭，都在睡覺？"],["阮次長清華：不會、不會，跟委員報告，其實我們現在積極在做，就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們積極在做，這我已經聽了一年了，耳朵都快長繭了。我再說，年底一定有版本，一定有相關未來所有的可長可久，卓院長口中說請鄭麗君副院長來做相關的統籌，請問你們跟鄭副院長開過幾次會？"],["阮次長清華：我們基本上，我剛才講過就是說我們爭取……"],["黃委員珊珊：我問你們開過幾次會？"],["阮次長清華：我們開過4次會了。"],["黃委員珊珊：我問跟鄭副院長開過幾次會？"],["阮次長清華：跟副院長那邊開的算不清楚了。"],["黃委員珊珊：財劃法的會開過幾次？"],["阮次長清華：對，開過很多次會，我已經記不起來多少次。"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼時候開始開的？開到現在還在開啊？"],["阮次長清華：就一直在溝通，一直在精進相關法案的內容，希望能夠把這個方案作得更好。"],["黃委員珊珊：昨天這個會主計處有沒有參加？"],["阮次長清華：有，有參加。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長有沒有參加？沒有？"],["阮次長清華：沒有，那都是比較技術層面的同仁在處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的想法很簡單，就是只有71天，你們自己溝通，你還有一個東西叫做跟立法院溝通。我們現在沒有聽到你們要跟我們溝通的意思，而且過程裡面我一直問版本，到現在為止只看到上次院長在議場說：「我有版本在手上。」這個版本到現在沒有見過光。次長，很簡單，我們在這個財政委員會，這總要見公婆的啦！時間到了，不管審預算也好，還是財劃法的版本也好，都必須要在這邊做審查。","另外，國民黨本身的公式爭議，還有補助款的爭議，他都有版本，而且都逕付二讀，11月中就可以表決了。到時候表決通過的是立法院的版本，你們的版本又擺在後面了，這才是我覺得行政機關最大的問題啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不要讓這種事情發生，再來善後、善後、再善後，要嘛就快一點，要嘛就跟立法院好好溝通。"],["阮次長清華：會。"],["黃委員珊珊：怎麼樣在這個財劃法上面，能夠找到一個最大的共識，而不是只是你們在閉門造車。"],["阮次長清華：當然，所以謝謝委員的指教，這個也是我們未來要處理的事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在看起來就是你們慢慢慢慢、拖拖拖，才會拖到今天這樣的僵局。到現在還要去跟地方政府開會，地方政府來這邊開過幾次會了？重視人家就不會拖到現在，重視人家的意見，就不會讓地方政府還要到你們那邊來哭窮。如果立法院沒有幫他們通過，他們永遠在看你們的臉色。我覺得今天的問題是，行政機關請尊重地方政府，什麼叫財政自主。"],["阮次長清華：我覺得地方政府應該不是看中央的臉色啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：不要把他當成你們的下屬機關，大家是一種合作關係，中華民國是大家的。"],["阮次長清華：這個我完全贊同委員的說法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政地方自主是地方自治非常重要的精神，中央是要去怎麼樣協助或平衡，而不是把它當成你們的籌碼去分配。"],["阮次長清華：我完全贊同委員的說法，完全贊同。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個很重要好嗎？好，接下來次長我還有一個問題，我們現在很多政府的政策是鼓勵所謂的終身學習、在職進修。目前新的世界已經來臨，尤其是像人工智慧、區塊鏈、各種新興的技術。現在全時的工作者都會選擇再回到學校進修，不過我們目前為止，臺灣有非常多的大學開了在職專班，還有EMBA，但是在我們的稅法裡面，對於這些終身學習，好像沒有給予特別的優惠，或者是說我們現在所謂的扣除額裡面，它有一定的限制，所以如果我的小孩在念大學，我可以扣，但我自己念書不能扣。你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，目前的稅法規定就是對子女的教育補助……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們是不是應該要做一些檢討？"],["阮次長清華：所以簡單地讓我說明一下，目前的規定，我們對子女的教育補助費每年是2.5萬元，這個是子女……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，很少啦！"],["阮次長清華：針對他的扶養……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在念書怎麼可能只有2.5萬元。"],["阮次長清華：至於剛才委員提到本人那一部分，我們目前的作法是從他的薪資所得裡面，特別扣除額的方式……"],["黃委員珊珊：目前是用薪資特別扣除額去扣，或者是列舉扣除額，比如說你職業專用的服裝、進修訓練費或職業上工具的支出，這個我都知道。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是它有很多的限制，第一個，要跟工作有關的技能，我如果是念法務，我要去念法律才能扣，但是我去念法務，我去念EMBA可能就不能扣，我的意思是說終身學習不應該做這些限制。第二個，扣減的比例很低，因為薪資特別扣除額扣得比較多。所以在美國其實有一個終身學習減稅額，每一個夫妻合併申報不超過18萬美元的話，本人、配偶、受扶養人的大學研究所跟專業學位都可以申請扣減，最高限額抵稅金2,000美金，也就是6萬元。","這個我們也會在財委會來提案，因為我覺得終身學習，尤其是我自己在讀書不能扣，我的小孩讀書可以扣，這很奇怪，金額也不高。接下來的世界，我剛剛說非常的新，連我們現在包括我們這個年紀，我們可能都要去學一下AI了。次長，這些東西都不會停下來的。"],["阮次長清華：委員這個概念很好，但是我覺得有關這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們會提案，也請你們開始研議這部分的金額跟相關的稅損有可能減少多少，我相信不會太多。"],["阮次長清華：我們到時候會精算，但是目前我們是希望，因為現在扣除額實在太多了，造成將近一半的人不繳稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是因為中華民國萬萬稅，大家只能一直找扣除額，不然要怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：其實我覺得還好，我們的稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在碩士在職專班有5.3萬人，也就是說這是國家很重要的人才庫，如果大家願意去讀書，我們應該是鼓勵的，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們當然一定要鼓勵，但是是不是一定要用稅的方式，目前是用……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，最後一個問題，主計長我想問一下，還有財政部，賴總統8年要直接興建13萬戶的社會住宅，到現在所謂直接興辦社會住宅的百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫，聽說還沒有核定。沒有核定的原因是各部會的審查意見，內政部說要有更多的錢去買地，但是主計總處反對。請問是主計總處在反對蓋社宅嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是沒有反對蓋社宅，而是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：可是你們說要撙節，減少國庫財務負擔，所以到現在沒有核定的原因是這個嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為事實上租屋補貼和建社宅，這兩個到底要採哪一個，或者是說建社宅的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不是主計總處的意見，那賴總統的政見要不要執行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是要執行的，但是執行要用什麼方式對他最有利……"],["黃委員珊珊：他已經上任一年多了，連核定計畫都沒有！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分因為月底核定……"],["黃委員珊珊：核定計畫有這麼難嗎？至少先核定，然後大家去找財源，本來就是這樣啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你連核定計畫都沒有，那連核定都不核定……"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是財源部分也是必須要先確定啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以根本不知道要怎麼辦，現在有方法了嗎？百萬社宅蓋不蓋嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是社宅它不是……它百萬的社宅……"],["黃委員珊珊：租，包括租屋補貼嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有一些是租屋補貼，75萬戶嘛！"],["黃委員珊珊：租屋支持計畫辦不辦嘛！這個計畫是他的總統政見，到現在一年了，還在只聞樓梯響。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以25萬裡面分為，就是那個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都知道細節，我只問你們這個計畫要不要辦？還是什麼時候會核定，還是主計處一開始就說不要？是誰在擋，是誰在挺？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是行政院在核定的，但是不是我們在擋這個部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：我問各部會，各部會說是主計處的意見反對啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們不是反對，我們是說要怎樣去做才會更有效益，我們有做整個分析提供給他參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：那什麼時候要給我答案？我們這個會期要審預算了，所以我想知道這個百萬社宅住宅基金的相關計畫，尤其是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個由內政部他本身就會……"],["黃委員珊珊：今年年底會不會有個計畫，有沒有一個完整的計畫？還是你主計處給我一個你們的意見，完整的給我？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分看內政部是怎樣，我們再來跟他詢問。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望如果是政府要做，主計處不應該是那個阻礙的人。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有阻礙，我們只是提供更好的分析給他參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部也一樣，剛剛講沒有錢，請你們要去找錢，才有辦法做這件事啊！聽起來是這樣。所以財政部的立場呢？我們要不要支持百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫呢？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個就是健全房市市場的一部分嘛！"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["阮次長清華：所以基本上它是國家的一個重要政策……"],["黃委員珊珊：一年了，這個計畫連影子都沒有，這很離譜啊！兩位，你們身為財主機關，我覺得如果我們百萬家庭的租屋計畫沒有財源，那你們就要大聲去向其他單位說，看大家要怎麼來想辦法，而不是只是提了一個空殼的計畫，好嗎？沒有核定這件事情很離譜啊！好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃珊珊委員。","我想財政部跟主計處關於剛剛黃委員質詢的內容，這一部分應該跟行政院來好好溝通，儘速核定啦！這是賴總統的政見，跟內政部要好好再去討論。","接下來請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},{"id":"164580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daebbc42eff417c17634f1f132b5784e0483c966d97180d5d2fe35119236caa9935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:24:27 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這不行因為整體台灣是勞動力缺少而且缺口很大而大家新興的進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作和家庭和生活品質而他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇"},{"start":251.983,"end":263.389,"text":"在這種狀況裡面政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化就業型態的變化還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化你不能只講這一句話對不對"},{"start":268.048,"end":283.723,"text":"我們其實有跟幾個產業也包括服務業或幾個產業在討論接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工其實希望比較是要提高他在工作裡面的彈性因為當提高彈性的時候他裡面可能會牽涉到法尊的問題"},{"start":285.014,"end":312.455,"text":"那我们怎么样来协助这些产业把法尊该做的法尊跟保障要做到我听你这样讲不行为什么因为牛步化这些等你讨论完了其实这个问题都已经非常严重了所以你们牛步化而现在这是现在进行式而且如火如荼的进行式大家都想要弹性工作而上个礼拜四我们的院长端出了一个全国劳动力总检讨政策"},{"start":313.495,"end":331.007,"text":"他討論是未來的這個移工的引進的速度數量和方式都將與過去不同期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力的需求院長主動去這個宣示的這樣一個政策然後他們他說啊你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業"},{"start":334.89,"end":339.614,"text":"他說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業而且這個計畫本來要更早公佈但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公佈那在這種狀況裡面我們真的很擔心如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力的總檢討的盤點作業那我想你不能只"},{"start":357.671,"end":380.576,"text":"只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和機制引進的機制要重新調整而讓移工制度更有效率更貼近現況不是只有這個你要先從產業鏈的結構勞動力的結構的缺口整體盤點完以後才能再講外籍移工的引進的政策吧"},{"start":381.978,"end":398.292,"text":"可是我剛才聽你這樣說看起來好像沒有觸及到真的就全國產業的發展整體的這個就業型態的改變那全國未來10年20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重"},{"start":400.359,"end":427.672,"text":"更不要講補充原則和替代原則那都沒人在管我們人民根本都不在乎了因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他來替代我們了除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊的白領階級的工作以外其他都是缺工缺工再缺工所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了"},{"start":429.335,"end":445.815,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是要請教部長你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來五年十年勞動力市場的結構的變化評估做出了什麼樣的評估出來可不可以在這裡先報告一下"},{"start":446.769,"end":465.528,"text":"跟跟文說明我其實但我們其實對整體勞動力的政策的供給的評估是在目前在進行中那即便是討論到外籍工的部分也會以本國勞工的機會優先跟勞動條件優先來去做相關的思考"},{"start":466.479,"end":490.786,"text":"不是啦 你說評估當中但是卓榮泰部長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業你現在說你們評估當中但你還講移工你會讓他是補充原則這個就不用強調了因為大家都知道很多工作台灣人早就不做嚴重缺工"},{"start":491.986,"end":519.103,"text":"大家都知道譬如說農業外籍移工譬如說這個很多還各種產業各種缺工狀況嚴重你還在慢慢吞吞的評估其實大家都不擔心因為就是沒有人要做所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望我最後再講一個就是說這個買工的事情從捷安特事件的強迫勞動"},{"start":520.524,"end":541.775,"text":"你知道後來移工聯盟又開了20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取100多萬的買工費而你們是透過1955去檢舉的而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費給他們嘛對不對你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛對不對"},{"start":543.066,"end":561.637,"text":"我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情就是我在講過的我說那個記者他把調查報告交給美國的這個非營利勞權團體叫Transparent然後他這裡有一篇就是揭穿台灣紡織業強迫勞動這裡面你也有受訪這個Transparent這個透明組織他們去訪談了90多名的越南菲律賓印尼亞泰國移工"},{"start":572.163,"end":588.587,"text":"這些移工受雇於9家紡織業者包括Adidas、Pentagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名的大的廠牌的這個品牌的原料提供在這種狀況裡面調查發現收取買工費"},{"start":593.408,"end":615.821,"text":"服務費防止逃跑押金500到1000美元等扣留身份文件執行宵禁恐嚇威脅和欺騙都有在這種狀況裡面Transparent他們說台灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負責買工費所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":618.542,"end":642.842,"text":"調查發現還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水而構成聯合國和犯罪問題辦公室的人口販運指標在這種狀況裡面透明組織聯絡了9家業者下游因為台灣的9家業者他供貨給47家國際知名品牌"},{"start":643.743,"end":666.07,"text":"大部分被點名的供應商開會要制定矯正計畫聽好有一個corrective action plan要求這一些台灣的酒家業者要處理報告中的買工費還有勞動問題而且要提出矯正計畫那Pentagonia他就講"},{"start":667.41,"end":691.026,"text":"還有那個YKK的這個拉鍊他們就說立即啟動在台供應商國訪企業的聯絡而且展開集合工作而且要求求證調查內容結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為所以這個YKK已經跟國訪企業聯絡討論要執行"},{"start":693.928,"end":716.493,"text":"雇主付費原則讓移工不必再花錢付買工費所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費就是所謂之前的RBA的零付費這種原則現在你這樣不來不去 你如果政府不想管政府不想管 市場就起來管"},{"start":717.893,"end":738.651,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 政府說買工費不允許 可是人家就是存在那你現在政府不訂法律 不修改法律 不管然後企業他的這個Pentagonia就要求國防那國防最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費所以這裡面看到什麼"},{"start":739.994,"end":754.92,"text":"看到了政府代呼職責而竟然是交給市場讓那個YKK自己來要求國防要付買工費我想這不會是個案因為在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":757.402,"end":781.218,"text":"這個處境包括歐盟那一邊包括美國我想這樣看起來不會是只有吉安特包括紡織業包括台灣的只要你要做外銷的你是供貨原料給知名品牌的未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的這一個成本這已經刻不容緩"},{"start":782.319,"end":810.33,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們真的是期待政府要硬起來政府要訂出該有的法律出來因為沒有法律規範因為買工費是產生在移工的母國就產生了然後到台灣來簽了本票以後叫台灣來叫他們付債務的費用不管這個母國簽了本票的買工費到底是台灣的仲介還是母國的仲介都不管"},{"start":811.277,"end":833.967,"text":"但是現在就是最終你的雇主都要付這一筆錢而且不是在紡織業不是在傳統產業電子3C半導體這一些他們都是優先都已經在做了而在這種狀況當產業界走到這個程度的時候我們真的政府要開始扛起責任了"},{"start":834.787,"end":842.511,"text":"政府要扛起扛起責任否則台灣從那個人口販運到強迫勞動這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎不要講說人權問題好了即便你不講人權問題它也是國際競爭國際品牌的形象的問題我們的台灣各種品牌"},{"start":857.117,"end":879.624,"text":"Made in Taiwan都已經是國際級的品牌了所以這個事情刻不容緩因為王玉民你只看我所以好吧 我今天就講到這裡大家眾所皆知那我們希望部長要扛起責任來準備該修法的要趕快硬起來修法好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天討論在平台經濟商業模式下如何保障外送員的權益，有關這個部分，我們看到從2012年foodpanda進入臺灣開始，然後2015年Uber Eat加入以後，從業人員至今大概有十幾萬人了吧？有多少人？"],["洪部長申翰：是，約17萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：17萬人？"],["洪部長申翰：4家加起來。"],["林委員淑芬：4家加起來？好，沒關係。就你了解，你認為近年臺灣面臨產業缺工的關鍵問題跟外送平台服務的興起有沒有相關？"],["洪部長申翰：當然外送也成為現在一些勞工去做兼職的選項。"],["林委員淑芬：特別是年輕勞工喔！我們的勞動力已經大幅下降，而年輕的勞動力都去從事外送平台服務的工作，現在有17萬人，而且都是年輕的勞動力喔！"],["洪部長申翰：也不只年輕的勞動力。"],["林委員淑芬：居多，你覺得這個跟我們產業缺工會不會有相關？"],["洪部長申翰：這的確成為一個兼職或者收入的選項。"],["林委員淑芬：而且低門檻。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：所以你不敢回答有沒有相關，我認為你們也是要去正視這個問題，即便有相關也不是外送員的錯。我現在要講的就是，其實foodpanda的營運總監曾經說過，產業缺工跟外送員的增減沒有直接關係，而是大家對於彈性工時工作的接受度提高。在這種狀況下，年輕的勞動力傾向於選擇跟我們過去那一代或過去幾個世代完全不一樣的彈性工作，這個問題就是這個社會還有政府要去面對的，如果大家都選擇要彈性工作，如果大家都不想要被綁在一個專職的工作裡面，不是勞動藍領階級，包括白領階級，我敢說包括我們立法院，包括助理群，包括有證照的專業人士，大家都想要更彈性的工作，甚至連公務人員，大家都不想來考試了。在這種狀況裡面，勞工對彈性工時制度的接受度這麼高，未來臺灣整體勞動力的結構和就業型態的發展趨勢會產生什麼樣的變化，你們整個部裡面到底有沒有進行中長期的評估？有沒有整體產業結構變化的情境推估？有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實這段時間我們在整體性的了解臺灣未來勞動力發展趨勢的時候的確有看到，尤其是年輕的世代，他們對於在工作裡面的彈性需求是越來越高，也希望能更多的兼顧工作跟生活需求，這個彈性的期待可能在世代上面是有不一樣的狀況，這個事情是我們有看出來的，所以我覺得這的確是接下來我們很多產業跟職場在設計上面的一個滿大的挑戰。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣講太空了，這不行！因為整體臺灣是勞動力缺少，而且缺口很大，新興進入勞動力市場的年輕人為了兼顧工作、家庭和生活品質，他們採取了要彈性工作的選擇，在這種狀況裡面，政府怎麼去面對這一個產業結構上的變化、就業型態的變化，還有整體產業勞動力不足的變化？你不能只講這一句話，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實有跟幾個產業，包括服務業跟幾個產業在討論，接下來要怎麼跟產業一起來因應現在很多勞工希望能提高在工作裡面的彈性，因為當要提高彈性的時候就有可能會牽涉到法遵的問題，我們怎麼樣來協助這些產業把該做的法遵跟保障要做到……"],["林委員淑芬：我聽你這樣講不行，為什麼？因為牛步化，等你討論完了，問題都已經非常嚴重了，所以你們這樣是牛步化，而現在這個是現在進行式，而且是如火如荼的進行式，大家都想要彈性工作。","上個禮拜四我們的院長端出了一個全國勞動力總檢討政策，他討論的是未來移工引進的速度、數量和方式都將與過去不同，期待更能滿足產業和家庭端的人力需求。院長主動宣示了這樣的政策，然後說你們勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業。部長，他說勞動部已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，而且這個計畫本來要更早公布，但因為颱風的影響而延宕至今還沒有公布。這個狀況真的令我們很擔心，如果你們已經完成了全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，我想你不能只是盤點出外籍移工的配額和引進的機制要重新調整，讓移工制度更有效率、更貼近現況，不是只有這個，你要先從產業鏈結構、勞動力結構的缺口去做整體盤點，盤點完以後才能來講外籍移工的引進政策吧？"],["洪部長申翰：其實……"],["林委員淑芬：可是我剛才聽你這樣說起來好像沒有觸及到全國產業的發展及整體就業型態的改變，那全國未來10年、20年各種產業的缺工狀況會多嚴重？更不要講補充原則和替代原則都沒有人在管，我們人民根本都不在乎了，因為的的確確已經不是到了會擔心他們來替代我們了，除了可能是專業人士或者是特殊白領階級的工作以外，其他都是缺工、缺工、再缺工，所以補充原則這個事情其實已經不是最大的問題了。在這種狀況下，我們真的要請教部長，你們這個新的勞動政策有沒有對未來5年、10年的勞動力市場結構變化做出什麼樣的評估？可不可以在這裡先報告一下？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們對整體勞動力政策的供給評估是目前正在進行中，即便是討論到外籍移工的部分，也會以本國勞工的就業機會優先跟勞動條件優先去做相關的思考。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！你說評估當中，但是卓榮泰院長指出勞動部已經完成全國勞動力總檢討的盤點作業，你現在說你們評估當中，你還講移工是要用補充原則，這個就不用強調了，因為大家都知道很多工作臺灣人早就不做，嚴重缺工，大家都知道，比如說農業外籍移工，又比如說各種產業的缺工狀況嚴重，但你還在慢慢吞吞的評估，其實那個大家都不擔心，因為就是沒有人要做。","我最後再講一個買工費的事情，在捷安特強迫勞動的事件之後，後來移工聯盟又開記者會指出有20名印尼移工遭仲介非法收取一百多萬的買工費，是透過「1955」去檢舉的，而你們現在處置方法是希望他們退還買工費嘛，對不對？你們的處理方法是這樣子嘛，對不對？我現在要跟你講更嚴重的事情，就是我講過的，我說那個記者把調查報告交給美國的非營利勞權團體Transparentem，這裡有一篇就是揭穿臺灣紡織業強迫勞動，這裡面你也有受訪，這個透明組織（Transparentem）去訪談了九十多名越南、菲律賓、印尼亞及泰國移工，這些移工受僱於9家紡織業者，向包括Adidas、Patagonia、Nike、H&M、Lululemon等數十個國際知名品牌提供原料。他們調查發現有收取買工費、服務費、防止逃跑的押金500至1,000美元不等，還扣留身分文件、執行宵禁、恐嚇與威脅、欺騙等都有。在這種狀況裡面，Transparentem認為臺灣的雇主不應該讓外籍移工負擔買工費，而且調查發現，還有5家業者曾經因為移工遲到、使用手機等輕微的違規事件而苛扣薪水，已經構成聯合國毒品和犯罪問題辦公室人口販運指標。在這種狀況下，透明組織聯絡了9家業者的下游公司，因為臺灣這9家業者供貨給47家國際知名品牌，其中大部分和被點名的供應商開會，要制定矯正計畫，請聽好，有一個corrective action plan，要求臺灣的9家業者要處理報告中的買工費及勞動問題，而且要提出矯正計畫。Patagonia和以生產拉鍊聞名的YKK等表示收到調查後就立即啟動與其在臺供應商國紡企業聯絡，並且展開稽核工作，求證調查內容，結果發現潛在剝削和侵害移工人權行為。YKK已經跟國紡企業聯絡討論要執行雇主付費原則，讓移工不必再花錢付買工費。所以現在雇主要幫移工付買工費，就是所謂RBA零付費的這種原則。","現在這樣搞來搞去，如果政府不管，市場就起來管。在這種狀況裡面，政府說買工費不允許，可是人家就是存在，現在政府不制定法律、不修改法律，不管，Patagonia就要求國紡，國紡最終還是要幫他的移工付買工費，所以這裡面看到什麼？看到了政府怠忽職責，竟然是交給市場，讓YKK自己來要求國紡要付買工費。我想這不會是個案，因為在這種狀況下，這個處境，包括歐盟，包括美國，我想這樣看起來不會是只有捷安特，還包括紡織業，包括臺灣的……只要你要做外銷，你是供貨原料給知名品牌的，未來這一些都要承擔起買工費的成本，這已經刻不容緩。在這種狀況下，我們真的期待政府要硬起來，政府要訂出該有的法律，如果沒有法律規範，因為買工費是在移工的母國就產生了嘛，簽了本票以後到臺灣來，叫他們付債務的費用，不管在母國所簽本票的買工費到底是給臺灣的仲介還是母國的仲介，但是現在最終就是雇主要付這一筆錢，而且不是在紡織業，不是在傳統產業，電子、3C、半導體這一些都是優先已經在做了，當產業界走到這個程度的時候，政府真的要開始扛起責任了，否則臺灣從人口販運到強迫勞動，這樣的標籤我們承擔得起嗎？不要講說人權問題，即便你不講人權問題，這也是國際競爭、國際品牌的形象問題，我們臺灣的各種品牌，Made in Taiwan已經是國際級的品牌了，所以這個事情刻不容緩！","因為王育敏委員一直看我，好吧，我今天就講到這裡，大家眾所皆知啦，我們希望部長要扛起責任來，該修法的要趕快硬起來修法。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 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網友好是 我想大家對這個外送委員的安全都非常的希望能夠真的提供最好的保障因為我們也了解一個外送委員如果出現任何問題對家庭 對社會都是一個非常大的一種影響所以這邊希望能夠再跟部長雖然很多委員跟您討論過了相關的議題不過如何提供最低的保障"},{"start":67.708,"end":90.297,"text":"那我們也知道越來越多的這個極端的這些天候狀況包括高溫或者是突降這個大雨或者是強風那如何能夠有更好的這些保護措施如何入法相信這是今天的重點那我也知道貴部已經有一個外送作業安全的衛生指引"},{"start":90.917,"end":117.952,"text":"在這個指引裡面呢其實第八點就明確的寫清楚要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關的商業保險來保障這個職業災害等的權益喔那這個是明確的寫在指引裡面那如果不遵照指引平台這些不遵照指引的話會有罰則嗎有沒有曾經有類似的這個案件有接受過處罰"},{"start":120.276,"end":148.926,"text":"報告委員確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有一個具體的一個雇用關係所以目前是這個指引雖然是適用在這個雇用關係的一個安全衛生的一些相關規定但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者這兩三年不斷的跟他們溝通現在大概兩大家這個平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了這個包含是商業險或是第三責任險目前這個涵蓋率大概百分之九十八"},{"start":150.267,"end":171.099,"text":"那這樣就對保障來講就是一個很大的一個進步那其實民進黨團也有一個草案那這個草案裡面在第11條也把這個外送員的投保商業保險也入法在裡面那我們期待這個部分能夠將來有好的這個執行的模式勞動部會支持嗎"},{"start":172.379,"end":196.589,"text":"當然好太好了我們就持續的來為這個這一群外送人員做比較更完整的一些做法那另外就是重大的職災通報依照這個指引裡面也有提到這個事故處理需要有一個完整的重大職災的通報那在第十一點裡面會含括到哪一些需要通報的重點"},{"start":197.609,"end":212.644,"text":"那同樣的這個到底是一個建議性的呢還是強制性有沒有在這個過程裡面沒有通報接受到相關的懲處或者是說有沒有比較完整的這些資料可以讓大家做參考"},{"start":214.335,"end":237.622,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者去這樣做可是他在法尊的強制性跟賀祖利上面就現有的職安法上面的話我們覺得是有加強的空間所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法裡面就是現在大院正在審查的職安法裡面"},{"start":238.422,"end":262.455,"text":"其中的第51支一条我们其实是有把这个外送员那要就说平台的业者有责任要来去协助外送员的这些作业安全的预防好那从准用直接改成试用这个准用改成试用也是如果未来平台业者没有做到的话"},{"start":263.837,"end":275.348,"text":"就是有實際可以開罰的法條對所以這是在我們這次治安法的修法裡面51-1條很重要的我們把它給改進調整進去的"},{"start":276.328,"end":296.211,"text":"好 所以其實民進黨黨團的這個版本裡面也有把這個部分列在第19條讓這個未來的保障可以更完整那我們其實最重要就是說任何一個事件必須要好好的被調查這樣才能夠防止下一次可能這種案件再度的發生是"},{"start":297.452,"end":325.464,"text":"那我們也知道這個極端跟高溫氣候在保障上外送員他每天的工作就是在戶外奔波幫這個他的對象做服務那這部分我們也了解現在有這個天然災害停止上班跟上課的作業辦法那政府能夠明確的來讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課的時候是有一個完整的一個依循"},{"start":326.224,"end":355.002,"text":"那如果是出現在這種狀態之下我想勞工也會同樣的有相同的保障可是就好像剛剛一群委員所提到的那如果這個氣象報告裡面已經告訴我們會有豪雨或颱風可是又還沒有到達停班停課的這樣條件之下那我們這些外送員在安全退避權的保障上面如何能夠更具體而來落實不知道部長目前有哪一些的想法"},{"start":357.285,"end":370.891,"text":"現在因為極端氣候尤其是大家現在越來越重視高溫熱為害那這高溫熱為害其實就在一般的作業比方營造業作業裡面其實現在都有明定其實是有強制性的必須要去做到"},{"start":372.933,"end":392.075,"text":"這個雇主要給予一定的這個防護的設備那在現在在外送員也是剛才說到的透過職安法的51條之一然後其實雇主也就是平台業者就有責任要給予外送員一定的面對極端氣候可能是防護個人防護的措施包括對熱的對冷的都是"},{"start":392.595,"end":407.9,"text":"是 對 所以我們也知道像以這個熱傷害 熱灰害為例的話第三級是40.6度那看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生可是某一些區域很有可能會在"},{"start":409.921,"end":432.447,"text":"那段時間裡面真的達到40.6度以上的體感感受體表溫度也許他的這個可以測到的溫度不見得是40.6度可是這個體版溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度那這樣這個時候呢應該要避免讓這個勞工在這個高溫的過程裡面從事戶外的作業所以我們很希望"},{"start":432.907,"end":460.054,"text":"未來在針對於我們這一群外送員在這種極端氣候之下有更好的落實來保障他們的安全比較麻煩的是怎麼去有效的檢核因為在這個過程裡面其實如果要舉證或者是要去做事先的預防我們能夠做哪一些有效的檢核目前有相關的一些成果或者是在未來的檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計"},{"start":461.912,"end":478.083,"text":"跟那個剛剛委員前一張有一個那個熱指數的他這個比較不是氣溫因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟濕度啦所以並不是40.6就是40點攝氏40.6度他其實溫度跟濕度綜合的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":479.847,"end":506.203,"text":"那我們其實這一次在高溫熱為害的指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修進去但是他的確是要配合職安法的修正讓如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話才會有能夠被這個包括開罰的強制性確實也是所以我們這次的職安法的51支1條其實很關鍵"},{"start":508.504,"end":515.956,"text":"他其實可以對於這些比較非典型的工作者的相關的最安全的保護有很大的進展"},{"start":516.758,"end":544.151,"text":"是 所以如果職安法修法以後對這一群外送員的確有可以從原來的準用變成適用 對那如果又有專法成立的話那這兩者之間如果能夠做有效的這些規範不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下如果又有職安法又有這個我們現在正在希望能夠成立的這個專法有沒有辦法"},{"start":546.032,"end":571.732,"text":"讓這個過程可以更為平順其實外送員的安全這是我們最最優先在考慮的所以包括剛才說對外送人要有治安法上面的保護那第二個其實我們在假如接下來定義專法我們也認為商業的保險或者是這個災保其實也都能夠對於安全的部分能夠有多一點的協助這樣子"},{"start":572.372,"end":599.375,"text":"好那最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請請教的地方就是勞工請病假的不利待遇的部分因為我們也知道這個民航局跟這個其他的這個航空公司針對於連我們曾經在近期討論過的這個航檢他帶來的這個生命的因為不利請假造成的影響所"},{"start":600.796,"end":614.006,"text":"做了一些調整達成了四項協議我們覺得很感謝勞動部部長這方面的努力可是我們不希望說一個行業一位同仁因為有這樣的問題"},{"start":615.367,"end":637.717,"text":"就去討論那個行業而已我們期待的就是更為周全的不管是相關哪一個行業一般勞工請病假的相關權益的保障都應該要同時來考量 同時來納入包括像在醫院裡面的不管是護理師或相關的這些醫療從業人員還有其他像我們這個台灣護國神山的工程師電子業者等等"},{"start":638.393,"end":651.279,"text":"那這一部分部長你有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤奪考核的範圍的這個比較完整性的做法我們很期待有更積極的作為"},{"start":652.679,"end":679.45,"text":"跟委員說明上禮拜五勞動部當然我們跟民航局就找六家的國際航空來做討論那當然因為與會的成員是國航空業所以當然現在是比較針對航空業但的確對於病假因為我們都不惜因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權所以我們是都不希望病假請病假會被制度性的"},{"start":680.27,"end":707.181,"text":"不利對待或者請病假會被勤奪考核認為是墮我想人都會生病生病以後請病假休息不會被認為是墮所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者來對這個議題來做更周全的研議因為這個事情在涉及到的樣態也比較多所以我們會跟這個專家學者在這方面來去做再多做一些研議這樣子"},{"start":708.221,"end":720.377,"text":"好如果有研議的報告可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室來讓我們做考考好謝謝部長好謝謝召委謝謝王振旭委員發言請林淑芬委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我也呼應林月琴委員剛剛最後的期待，召委這邊如果認為這個專法那麼重要，還有很多相關的議題需要再釐清，需要有更多的意見匯整進來的話，也許委員會召開公聽會也是一個適當的做法。就麻煩召委再酌予考量。","謝謝主席能夠召開今天的會議，我請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。","我想大家對外送員的安全，都非常希望能夠真的提供最好的保障，因為我們也了解一個外送員如果出現任何問題，對家庭、對社會都是非常大的影響，所以希望能夠再請教部長。雖然很多委員跟您討論過相關的議題，不過如何提供最低的保障，我們也知道有越來越多的極端天候狀況，包括高溫、突降大雨或者是強風，如何有更好的保護措施、如何入法，相信這是今天的重點。","我也知道貴部已經有「外送作業安全衛生指引」，在這個指引裡，其實第八點就有明確的寫清楚，要提供外送從業人員身體跟財產保險等相關商業保險，來保障職業災害等權益，這是明確寫在指引裡面。如果平台不遵照指引，會有罰則嗎？有沒有曾經有類似的案件接受過處罰？"],["林署長毓堂：報告委員，確實現在平台業者跟外送員之間沒有具體的僱傭關係，目前這個指引雖然適用在僱傭關係安全衛生的相關規定，但是我們也透過跟這些平台業者，在這兩、三年不斷跟他們溝通，現在大概兩大家平台業者都已經幫外送員投保了，不管是商業型或是第三責任險，目前涵蓋率大概98%。"],["王委員正旭：那這樣子對保障來講，就是一個很大的進步。其實民進黨團也有一個草案，這個草案第十一條也把外送員投保商業保險入法，我們期待這個部分將來能夠有好的執行模式。勞動部會支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員正旭：好，太好了。我們就持續來為這群外送人員提供更完整的一些做法。","另外就是重大職災通報。指引裡也有提到，事故處理需要有完整的重大職災通報，在第十一點有含括哪一些需要通報的重點。同樣的，這到底是建議性的呢，還是強制性？有沒有在這個過程裡沒有通報而接受到相關的懲處？或是有沒有比較完整的資料，可以讓大家參考？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確這個指引當然是希望平台業者就這樣做，可是在法遵的強制性跟嚇阻力上面，就現有的職安法，我們覺得是有加強的空間，所以這也是為什麼我們在新送出來的職安法，就是現在大院正在審查的職安法，其中的第五十一條之一規定平台業者有責任協助外送員作業安全的預防，從準用直接改成適用。準用改成適用後，如果未來平台業者沒有做到的話，就有實際可以開罰的法條。在這次職安法修法中，第五十一條之一很重要的，我們把它改進、調整進去了。"],["王委員正旭：好。其實民進黨團的版本裡面，也有把這個部分列在第十九條，讓未來的保障可以更完整。最重要的是，任何一個事件必須好好的被調查，這樣才能夠防止下一次可能的案件再度發生。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：在保障方面，我們也知道極端跟高溫氣候下，外送員每天的工作就是在戶外奔波，幫他的對象服務。我們也了解現在有「天然災害停止上班及上課作業辦法」，政府能夠明確的讓公務機關跟學校在停班停課時有一個完整的依循。如果出現這種狀態，我想勞工也會有相同的保障。可是就好像剛剛月琴委員所提到的，如果氣象報告已經告訴我們會有豪雨、會有颱風，可是又還沒有到達停班停課的條件之下，對於這些外送員安全退避權的保障，如何能夠更具體來落實？不知道部長目前有哪些想法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在因為極端氣候，尤其大家現在越來越重視高溫熱危害，高溫熱危害其實在一般作業，比方營造業的作業，現在都有明定，是有強制性的，雇主必須要給一定的防護設備。現在在外送員這部分，也是剛剛說到的，透過職安法第五十一條之一，面對極端氣候，雇主也就是平台業者，就有責任要給予外送員一定的個人防護措施，包括對熱的、對冷的都是。"],["王委員正旭：對。我們也知道以熱危害為例，第三級是40.6度，看起來40.6度好像不太容易發生，可是某一些區域很有可能會在那段時間真的達到40.6度以上的體感溫度，也許當地可以測到的溫度不見得達到40.6度，可是體感溫度很有可能會到達這樣的程度。這個時候應該要避免讓勞工在高溫下從事戶外作業，所以很希望未來針對這群外送員在這種極端氣候之下能更好的落實，來保障他們的安全。比較麻煩的是，怎麼有效的檢核？因為在這個過程裡，如果要舉證或者事先的預防，我們能夠做哪些有效的檢核？在目前相關的一些成果上或是在未來檢核機制上去做完整的搭配跟設計？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛委員有一張熱指數的簡報資料，這個比較不是氣溫，因為這個指數其實包括了溫度跟溼度，所以並不是說40.6就是攝氏40.6度，這其實是溫度跟溼度綜合的一個指標。我們這一次在高氣溫作業熱危害預防指引裡面其實也有把外送員給修納進去，但是這的確是要配合職安法的修正，如果平台業者沒有做到該提供的防護的話，才會有包括被開罰的強制性。所以我們這次職安法第五十一條之一其實很關鍵，對於這些比較非典型工作者的相關作業安全保護有很大的進展。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以如果職安法修法以後，對這一群外送員的確可以從原來的準用變成適用嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["王委員正旭：如果又有專法成立的話，這兩者之間如何能夠做有效的規範？不知道目前針對同樣都是在這種熱危害的情形之下，如果有職安法，又有我們現在希望能夠制定的專法，有沒有辦法讓這個過程可以更為平順？"],["洪部長申翰：其實外送員的安全是我們最最優先在考慮的，所以包括剛才提到對外送員要有職安法上面的保護。第二個，假如接下來要制定專法，我們也認為商業保險或者是災保其實也都能夠對於安全部分有多一點的協助。"],["王委員正旭：好。最後還有一個要跟部長再次確認跟請教的就是勞工請病假的不利待遇部分，針對我們近期討論過的空姐因擔心請病假被不利對待導致延誤就醫的事件，勞動部有邀集民航局跟其他幾家國籍航空公司進行討論，並達成了四項協議，我們很感謝勞動部部長在這方面的努力，可是我們不希望一個行業一位同仁發生了問題後就去討論那個行業而已，我們期待的是更為周全的，不管是哪一個行業，一般勞工請病假的相關權益保障都應該要同時來考量，同時來納入，包括像是醫院裡面的護理師或相關醫療從業人員，還有其他像臺灣護國神山的工程師、電子業者等等，對於這一部分，部長有沒有希望透過勞動部來推動病假不列入勤惰考核範圍的比較完整性的作法？我們很期待有更積極的作為。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，上禮拜五勞動部跟民航局就找6家國籍航空來做討論，當然，因為與會的成員是航空業，現在是比較針對航空業，但的確對於病假，因為病假涉及到員工跟勞工的健康權，所以我們都不希望請病假會被制度性的不利對待，或者請病假會在勤惰考核中被認為是惰。我想人都會生病，生病以後請病假休息不應該被認為是惰，所以我們接下來會跟相關的專家學者針對這個議題做更周全的研議，因為這個事情大概涉及到的樣態也比較多，所以我們會跟專家學者在這方面再多做一些研議。"],["王委員正旭：如果有研議的報告，可不可以也請送一份到我們辦公室讓我們參考？謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員發言。","請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da3ea4ba45f185dbafad42acad3a0f8ea683c966d97180d5d275783c786b3857c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:26:35 - 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請主委好 又請主委陳昭惠好"},{"start":19.625,"end":35.527,"text":"主委好主委這邊請教您在財化法之後通過之後大幅的影響我們中央及地方的預算的分配的比例那衝擊到我們中央的政策的推動國會這邊也難以倖免的會受到影響"},{"start":36.688,"end":52.145,"text":"主委我想请教你原先我们预期明年度的科技预算是会编列到1800亿现在大概只能规划到1600亿少了这200亿主委您觉得说会不会限制到我们台湾科技的发展对我们科研的这些量能会不会限制到"},{"start":53.854,"end":73.798,"text":"我當然覺得會限制啦就是我們希望在政府經濟的發展良好的這樣的時期我們能夠多投入讓台灣的這個實力可以快速再提升那主委您在受訪的時候也表示說因為地方政府的這個收入是增加的"},{"start":74.218,"end":89.554,"text":"希望未來呢地方可以配合中央的施政規劃我們一起來創造更大的內需市場那我想請教說國科會目前有預計哪些科技政策是需要地方政府一起來努力有沒有去協調地方跟中央是如何來合作"},{"start":90.474,"end":105.147,"text":"我刚刚那个张委员在问我AI新时代建设我有提到说我们要发展全民智慧生活圈这个全民智慧生活圈将来推动的机制就是要发展智慧城市把全民透过这个智慧城市AI的应用能够"},{"start":106.028,"end":133.192,"text":"AI的云端应用能够连接在一起这个一定需要地方政府跟中央政府来配合地方政府跟中央政府来配合能够在需求端就是全民全民一定都有地方政府然后他们的需求还有地方的服务业百工百业像旅宿餐饮业医疗健康照护业等等这都是在地方地方政府在协助的时候我们也希望能够补助他们"},{"start":133.792,"end":151.921,"text":"补助他们来应用我们科技产业所发展出来的这些AI的产品跟应用服务这样搭配起来才有办法让我们社会发展其实我们推动科技的政策不只在研究那也要时间重要的是时间所以重要的地方我们要一起"},{"start":152.941,"end":181.49,"text":"也希望说能够达到主委您说的我们是形成一个正向循环但是我会希望说我们需要地方政府一起努力的或者说我们可以给他的这些建议能够更具体我们来拟就是说我们有这样子的一个研究我们有怎样的资源可以来相结合提供给这些县市政府做参考来结合我们现在有的技术我们现在有的结果研究的结果那是提供"},{"start":181.851,"end":192.852,"text":"给我们的民众是一个在产学方面是研究出来的一个可以实践的这个有没有更具体一点的计划可以来提供"},{"start":193.939,"end":213.384,"text":"我們如果是產學合作我們倒沒有特別限制因為學者要跟產業界合作他們要提計劃這個要等到我們預算通過以後因為預算都是中央部會編列的預算通過以後我們會去邀請"},{"start":215.144,"end":238.342,"text":"學術界跟產業界一起來合作來提這些案子所以我們不會限制那個題目好的 謝謝主委好 那承介剛剛講才化法這個問題我們在115年的這個預算呢針對基礎科研的預算會不會再做增加我們會增加多少的幅度有沒有符合我們國科會想要強力扶植那個科研這個力道我們經費"},{"start":244.844,"end":250.669,"text":"反部增加啦就是說明年的預算我們有有微幅的增加"},{"start":251.843,"end":277.062,"text":"那当然可能没有到说很让学界满意那至少我没有让学界很满意但是主委你自己满意吗自己觉得这样子的我本来当然是期待说明年的一张可以更多一点能够编到一千八近期对于媒体对国歌会计划是有报道几个问题那刚才前面有质询的委员也都有提到不知道主委你自己有没有看过这样的报道"},{"start":277.862,"end":305.949,"text":"內容其實針對是國科會計劃的這些審核經費的運用以及研究經費動漲他其實都有著墨那其中還提到說我們的學者是一塊錢當十塊錢在用難怪國外的學者會稱我國的學術成果是台灣奇蹟那報導裡面有提到說國會主委之前曾經公開直言我們台灣學術界幾十年來都沒有本土的諾貝爾科學獎得主是很羞恥的"},{"start":306.969,"end":327.882,"text":"在国客会这边是不是有在思考其实我们国家提供给大学研究者这个研究经费跟其他国家来相比实在是没有办法跟人家比那国客会这边也不能觉得说责任是在学者自己国会这边你们也有责任为学者为研究者来争取那这边有几个问题想请教主委"},{"start":328.362,"end":347.74,"text":"就針對國科會計畫會變成是學者在校的這個業績有申請到計畫或者說是金額甚至是會跟升等續片來這個聯動那如果沒有申請到計畫等於計畫就停擺了他的研究生涯可能就結束了這個主委您有什麼看法"},{"start":348.632,"end":369.719,"text":"我们在这个计划申请核定通过率其实在全世界来讲我们其实算是高的也就是说我们在支持学界的这个研究我们尽量能够让愿意做研究的学者都能够得到国会的这个补助这一点我们是一直在努力当中"},{"start":371.26,"end":392.578,"text":"當然這個計畫能不能通過還要經過同儕的審查也就是學界專家彼此要去互相審查如果他的計畫沒有得到學者他們同領域學者之間的認同我們也不會浪費納稅人的錢一定要去資助他所以還是有個機制存在"},{"start":393.559,"end":415.361,"text":"针对学者有指出国客会核定的计划经费没有调涨所以学者留不住优秀的研究助理那国客会这边你们对于这样子的没有合理的薪资没有合理的待遇留不住优秀的研究助理我们可以有怎样的方式来协助解决我跟委员报告我们其实计划经费都有增加"},{"start":416.102,"end":445.115,"text":"但是這個計劃經費我們核定到學校去以後學校如果自己的內規沒有改他們自己沒有改的話他一直維持一個老的薪資的級距那也沒有辦法是學校自己要去修改他們的內規這不是國科委沒有在嚴格的限制這個經費核定到學校去以後是學校是有個彈性可以核定研究助理的津貼的"},{"start":446.104,"end":462.738,"text":"好那這邊呢其實剛才我有聽到朱問您在回答的說你們會去研議一個和平的制度是不是有這樣子的方式來解決部分因為待遇不佳沒有辦法讓人才留住這個問題"},{"start":464.139,"end":481.5,"text":"那另外呢真正學者認為說目前國科會的經費會偏重在政治導向就會只注重在國家要發展的項目那他們也希望說我們能夠做到預算是透明化這個項目透明化應該要有個監督的機制那主委您的想法呢"},{"start":482.182,"end":501.953,"text":"我們所有的國會所有的核定計畫全部都是公開的所有的民眾學者都可以看到國會所核定的所有的計畫所以這是全民在監督當然在預算上在項目上是公開的是不是會有一些在他們申請的時候有沒有會偏重偏重到哪個領域呢"},{"start":504.165,"end":531.441,"text":"并不会我们在这个在这个基础的研究部分是所有的学者可以以他自己的这个兴趣他研究的这个项目我们没有任何的限制但是呢我们有政府的一些科技政策那是专案的项目专案项目是额外加进来的我们在那个基础研究的部分自由的那种研究是完全没有"},{"start":532.381,"end":555.584,"text":"没有限制的那这一部分的经费我们是逐年在增加并没有减少是逐年在增加的谢谢主委这边的说明那我还是要再问同样的问题我们刚刚提到说受财化法的影响那目前我们基础科研人经费你们会维持不调整还是会再做调整会再增加吗我们是希望增加啦"},{"start":556.741,"end":581.114,"text":"因為說真的我們中央的預算變少同樣的我們國科會這邊的預算也會比預期的少是但你們希望增加是有機會再調整的會再如果有機會調整當然我們當然希望增加因為譬如說現在我們要發射衛星那緊鑼密鼓我們也把產業界帶進來了如果能夠有更多的資源我們當然速度可以加快對"},{"start":582.439,"end":598.485,"text":"这样才可以掌握那这个还是需要主委需要国科会再努力啦其实能为我们的学界能够再争取更多的资源因为现在以他们遇到的这个困难度就是会觉得说申请的这个可能经费如主委说申请没有那么不容易"},{"start":598.925,"end":618.835,"text":"但是可能的预算没有调涨的话面对现在的物价面对现在所有的白雾起涨可能没有办法去应付那如果可以争取到更多的资源更多的预算给他们他们在研究的时候经费会更宽裕这个部分也希望说主委跟国科会来努力为他们争取好"},{"start":619.935,"end":644.472,"text":"接下來我想請教主委我們學者要申請國科會的經費一定要遵守我們國科會國家科學及技術委員會補助專題研究計畫作業要點其中規範很多就是在規範研究計畫執行期間應該注意及遵守的事項包含如果是違反學術倫理還是違反性平等的有些規範以及懲處但主委"},{"start":644.952,"end":653.598,"text":"我們的研究進行的這個計畫進行期間如果針對計畫主持人及研究助理他們有受到這個霸凌"},{"start":654.997,"end":677.811,"text":"的这个状况除了血轮的之外血瓶的事情之外可能还有遇到霸凌的状况但是我们现在的重要要点没有相关这个霸凌的处置及规范那如果他们计划主持人发生了霸凌研究团队的这个事件我们国科会有什么作为或者说如果是相关的主管机关查到是属实的我们这边会不会有怎样的处置"},{"start":678.686,"end":702.067,"text":"有,我们现在在这个学轮委员会里面,也已经把霸凌这个项目也已经把它涵盖进来,所以委员会开会也会一并讨论这件事情,所以这一次我们在处理台师大女足案,我们已经有考虑这个事了,所以相关的这个运作的程序跟规范,"},{"start":703.389,"end":721.787,"text":"我们有纳入考虑之后我们什么时候会有明确的相关的规定现在已经有了在我们内规里面都已经有在内规里面都已经定出来了因为我们在这个学术研究的这个过程里面当然有时候是上位者或者说主持的人"},{"start":722.307,"end":750.888,"text":"他可能在一些不经意的这样子的过程里面也许会对我们的研究人员我们的团队有造成这样的伤害我们也希望说我们是落实的除了在性平方面在学龙方面在霸凌这一块我们是有注意到而且会处理的但我想请教一下如果说在学校的场域中受到的这样子的事件的第一时间他们会提报到学校由教育部来做相关的处置认定那我们这边的处置方式会是什么"},{"start":751.735,"end":778.27,"text":"国会的处置方式是以执行研究计划所产生的各种各样的问题所以这是学术伦理的部分还有他们在论文发表等等在学术的领域只要相关的事实被认定以后我们有各种处置惩罚的这个方式包含停权停权有它的不同的这个年数包含追回它的研究的补助"},{"start":779.61,"end":794.417,"text":"不能够得到研究奖励甚至还要追回过去的奖项等等有各种各样的所以情节严重的帮帮停权跟追回相关的补助都有我们都已经列入了都已经有了好 谢谢主委谢谢主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時26分）謝謝主席！請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳召委好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委好。財劃法通過之後，大幅的影響中央及地方預算的分配比例，衝擊到中央政策的推動，國科會這邊也難以倖免會受到影響，我想請教主委的是，原先我們預期明年度的科技預算會編列到1,800億元，現在大概只能規劃到1,600億元，少了這200億元，主委您覺得會不會限制到我們臺灣科技的發展？對我們科研的量能會不會有所限制？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當然覺得會限制啦！我們希望在政府經濟發展良好的時期能夠多投入，讓臺灣的實力可以快速再提升。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委您在受訪的時候也表示，因為地方政府的收入是增加的，希望未來地方可以配合中央的施政規劃，一起來創造更大的內需市場。我想請教國科會目前有預計哪些科技政策是需要地方政府一起來努力的？有沒有去協調地方跟中央如何來合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛張委員在問到AI新十大建設時，我有提到我們要發展全民智慧生活圈，這個全民智慧生活圈將來推動的機制就是要發展智慧城市，全民透過智慧城市AI的雲端應用能夠連結在一起，這個一定需要地方政府跟中央政府來配合，能夠在需求端也就是全民……全民一定都有地方政府嘛！包含他們的需求還有地方的服務業、百工百業，像旅宿餐飲業、醫療健康照護業等等，這些產業都是在地方，地方政府在協作的時候，我們也希望能夠補助他們來應用我們科技產業所發展出來的這些AI產品跟應用服務，這樣搭配起來才有辦法讓我們社會發展。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委，其實我們推動科技的政策不只在研究，重要的是實踐，所以中央和地方要一起努力，也希望能夠達到主委您說的，我們是形成一個正向循環，但我會希望我們需要地方政府一起努力的或者說我們可以給它的這些建議能夠更具體。我們有怎樣的資源可以來相結合，提供給這些縣市政府做參考，結合我們現在有的技術、現在有的研究結果，提供給民眾在產學方面研究出來可以實踐的東西，這個有沒有更具體一點的計畫可以提供？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果是產學合作，我們倒沒有特別限制。因為學者要跟產業界合作，他們要提計畫，這個要等到我們預算通過以後，因為預算都是中央部會編列的，預算通過以後，我們會去邀請學術界跟產業界一起合作來提出這些案子，所以我們不會限制題目。"],["陳委員秀寳：好的，謝謝主委！繼續剛剛講的財劃法這個問題，請問115年針對基礎科研的預算會不會再增加？會增加多少幅度？有沒有符合我們國科會想要強力扶植科研的力道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的經費緩步增加啦，我們明年的預算有微幅的增加，當然可能沒有到很讓學界滿意，但至少有增加。"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有讓學界很滿意，那主委你自己滿意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當然是期待明年的預算能夠編到1,800億元。"],["陳委員秀寳：近期媒體對國科會的計畫有報導了幾個問題，之前質詢的委員也都有提到，不知道主委你自己有沒有看過這樣的報導？報導內容對國科會計畫經費的運用以及研究經費凍漲，這些報導中都有著墨，其中還提到我們的學者是1塊錢當10塊錢在用，難怪國外的學者會稱我國的學術成果是臺灣奇蹟。報導裡面有提到國科會主委之前曾經公開直言，我們臺灣學術界幾十年來都沒有本土的諾貝爾科學獎得主是很羞恥的，那麼國科會是不是有在思考，其實我們國家提供給大學研究者的研究經費跟其他國家相較，實在是沒有辦法跟人家比，那國科會也不能覺得說這個責任在學者，國科會你們也有責任為學者、為研究者來爭取。","這邊有幾個問題想請教主委，針對國科會計畫變成是學者在校的業績，有申請到計畫或者金額會跟升等、續聘連動，如果沒有申請到計畫，等於計畫就停擺了，他的研究生涯可能就結束了，對此主委有什麼看法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在計畫申請核定通過率方面，就全世界來講，我們其實算是高的，也就是在支持學界研究的部分，我們盡量讓願意做研究的學者都能夠得到國科會的補助，這一點我們是一直在努力當中啦！至於計畫能不能通過還要經過同儕的審查，也就是學界專家彼此要去互相審查，如果他的計畫沒有得到同領域學者之間的認同，我們也不會浪費納稅人的錢一定要去資助他，所以還是有個機制存在。"],["陳委員秀寳：有學者指出國科會核定的計畫經費沒有調漲，所以學者留不住優秀的研究助理，國科會對於沒有合理薪資、沒有合理待遇以致留不住優秀研究助理，我們可以有怎樣的方式來協助解決？"],["吳主任委員誠文：跟委員報告，其實計畫經費都有增加，但是我們把這個計畫經費核定到學校去以後，如果學校自己的內規沒有改，一直維持舊的薪資級距，那我們也沒有辦法，是學校自己要去修改他們的內規，國科會並沒有嚴格的限制，所以這個經費核定到學校去以後，學校是有個彈性可以核定研究助理的津貼的。"],["陳委員秀寳：剛才我有聽到主委您在回答時說你們會去研議一個合聘的制度，那是不是可以藉由這樣的方式來解決因為待遇不佳以致沒有辦法留住人才的問題？另外，針對學者認為目前國科會的經費會偏重政治導向，就是只注重國家要發展的項目，他們希望能夠做到預算透明化、項目透明化，且應該要有個監督機制一事，主委您的想法呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會所有的核定計畫都是公開的，所有的民眾、學者都可以看到國科會所核定的全部計畫，所以這個是全民在監督。"],["陳委員秀寳：當然，在預算上、在項目上是公開的，但在他們申請的時候，是不是會有一些偏重的領域呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：並不會，在基礎的研究部分，所有的學者都可以依他自己的興趣進行研究項目，這個我們沒有任何的限制；但是我們政府的一些科技政策，那是專案的項目，專案項目是額外加進來的，我們在基礎研究的部分，對自由的那種研究是完全沒有限制的，這一部分的經費，我們是逐年在增加，並沒有減少，是逐年在增加的。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委的說明，我還是要再問同樣的問題，剛剛提到說受財劃法的影響，目前的基礎科研經費，你們會維持不調整還是會再調整？會再增加嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是希望增加啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：因為說真的，中央的預算變少，同樣的，我們國科會這邊的預算也會比預期的少，但你們希望增加，是有機會再調整的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果有機會調整，我們當然希望增加。譬如說現在我們要發射衛星，正緊鑼密鼓的進行，我們也把產業界帶進來了，如果能夠有更多的資源，當然速度可以加快，這樣才可以掌握……"],["陳委員秀寳：這個還是需要主委、需要國科會再努力，期待能為我們的學界爭取更多的資源，因為現在他們遇到的困難就是在申請經費的部分，誠如主委說的，申請沒有那麼不容易，但若預算沒有調整的話，面對現在的物價，面對現在百物齊漲的情況，他們可能沒有辦法去應付這樣的情況，那如果可以爭取到更多的資源、更多的預算給他們，他們在研究的時候，經費會更寬裕，這個部分也希望主委跟國科會來努力，為他們爭取。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我想請教主委的是，我們學者要申請國科會的經費一定要遵守「國家科學及技術委員會補助專題研究計畫作業要點」，其中的規範很多針對的是研究計畫執行期間應該注意及遵守的事項，包含對於違反學術倫理、違反性平等等都有一些規範以及懲處，但若在研究計畫進行期間，計畫主持人對於研究助理有霸凌的狀況呢？除了學倫、性平等事情之外，可能還會有遇到霸凌的狀況，但是現行作業要點並沒有與霸凌相關的處置及規範，如果計畫主持人發生了霸凌研究團隊的事件，我們國科會有什麼作為？如果相關的主管機關查到是屬實的，我們這邊會不會有怎樣的處置？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有的，我們在學倫委員會裡面已經把霸凌這個項目涵蓋進來，所以委員會開會會一併討論這件事情。這一次我們在處理臺師大女足案時已經有考慮這個事了，相關的運作程序跟規範都已經納入。"],["陳委員秀寳：納入考慮後，什麼時候會有明確的相關規定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在已經有了，在我們的內規裡面都已經有了。"],["陳委員秀寳：在內規裡面都已經訂出來了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，已經訂了。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為在學術研究的過程裡面，有時候上位者或者主持人也許可能在一些不經意的過程裡面，可能會對我們的研究人員、我們的團隊造成這樣的傷害，我們也希望是落實的，除了在性平方面、學倫方面外，在霸凌這塊我們也有注意到而且是會處理的。","我想請教一下，如果在學校的場域中發生這樣的事件，第一時間他們會提報到學校，由教育部來做相關的處置認定，那我們這邊的處置方式會是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的處置方式是以執行研究計畫所產生的各種各樣的問題，所以這是學術倫理的部分，還有他們發表的論文等等，在學術的領域裡，只要相關的事實被認定以後，我們有各種處置懲罰的方式，包含停權……停權有不同的停權年數，包含追回他的研究補助、不能得到研究獎勵甚至還要追回過去的獎項等等，有各種各樣的方式。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以情節嚴重的包括停權跟追回相關的補助，這些我們都已經明確的列入？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，都已經有了。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳召委，主委請回。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daf4bdaeede0058f0ce072f7c27276b8ae83c966d97180d5d2f24a9b87407f9c345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:29:44 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我這邊已經好幾塊跟你不錯囉我不會盤點了十幾塊在前一天給他啦"},{"start":133.703,"end":160.633,"text":"部長你的態度就讓大家看到政府到底對於有沒有把回答留下來的態度啦台北市政府真的比你積極很多啦我們是有跟他溝通啦好啦好啦沒關係我也不為難你可能你也不是很了解那我想請問一下能源的議題因為現在光電板問題很多包括之前水庫水庫的浮電光電板本來政府積極在推結果後來被發現說是不是會被對環境有影響結果進一步的態度好像就沒那麼積極了"},{"start":161.653,"end":169.795,"text":"改口講說地方政府沒核准就不會推感覺上我現在感覺啦現在不知道經濟部現在是不是沒有要推光點了"},{"start":170.643,"end":194.624,"text":"就是對光電來說是比較消極的這是光電部分還有風電因為我們了解風電現在陸基的風電很多都年限期限都到了嘛20年30年都陸續在到那地方都反而很激烈所以陸基的風電可能也會遭受阻力那我是不知道說經濟部你現在綠電這一塊假設光電沒有積極在推風電也沒有要推的話你要用什麼能源來補綠電這一塊"},{"start":196.041,"end":201.99,"text":"我們都積極在推啊有嗎 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長 龔部長我們再請龔部長蔡委員好部長好"},{"start":27.062,"end":55.392,"text":"部長首先還是要問一下今天大家在關心的就是說整個關稅談判的進度現在到底會如何呢因為大家也都有看到說賴總統事實上在對外也說這個關稅朝向正面的方向在發展那大家還是期待說最後談判的進度那到底現在你們的評估狀況是怎樣的就像總統講的就是說"},{"start":58.231,"end":71.824,"text":"没有涉及到汇率嘛这个总统讲另外就是说关税从暂时暂定的这个20%往下降不叠加那这个部分是比较正面的方向在进行当中20%"},{"start":74.909,"end":92.192,"text":"二死往下又不叠加那就很成功啊是 所以說這是一個正面的方向是啊 這個聽起來那這一次的談判大概大家會給整個行政談判團隊會給予掌聲如果可以吵到這樣所以我們現在會期待喔"},{"start":93.293,"end":109.318,"text":"總結會議還沒有開當然當然但是但是部長既然我們這樣講大家會期待喔所以真的要努力喔是是是真的因為都講出口了嘛我們都講了但是大家就會覺得嗯那會是一個好的狀況那我想要再進一步問說那針對232條款呢"},{"start":112.008,"end":133.745,"text":"这两条款主要跟我们牵扯比较大的就是主要是半导体的部分所以我们也会谈到一个比较好的条件那美国他也有一个想法如果你有去之前也有讲嘛如果你有去那边投资的话基本上是可以豁免那当然我们希望这个可以豁免的范围越大是越好的"},{"start":134.005,"end":159.939,"text":"我們半導體在美國投資目前是有的嘛我們包括台積電台積電已經有宣布了台灣本來就有在投資美國在半導體這一塊也不是現在才叫半導體業去是以前就有投資了嘛對不對可是美國現在是要我們加碼投資4月2號之前台積電本來就有在美國有做投資了本來就有了現在第一個廠也開始正式營運了"},{"start":162.06,"end":186.874,"text":"所以如果有投資的話就可以朝向說會拿到更好的一個因為基本上從廠商的角度台積電一直講只要有訂單上的需求他就願意去投資而且就是說如果就是說他也要賺錢如果說有訂單沒賺錢也不可能去所以就是說要確保他有訂單而且可以賺到錢"},{"start":187.674,"end":194.968,"text":"好但是部長我想台灣除了ICT產業之外事實上還是有其他的產業啦是尤其是傳統產業是那傳統產業事實上會被232條款衝擊很大"},{"start":200.49,"end":221.639,"text":"如果你這個鋼鋁目前還是50%鋼鋁產業也是台灣很重要的傳統產業的一環因為它涉及到後端可能就是工具機所以現在大家都預估如果現在台灣整個外銷在這一些ICT產業大概是會蓬勃發展而且外銷訂單會擴張但是相對的傳統上在鋼鋁產業"},{"start":227.842,"end":247.912,"text":"大概會進入寒冬所以就是說整個科技產業蓬勃翻產但是傳統產業還是會被這一次的關稅然後232條款的影響那這個產業會受到衝擊那部長你身為經濟部長就針對不同的產業你要有不同的照顧那你針對其他的產業呢"},{"start":249.324,"end":273.966,"text":"報告委員所以我們為什麼這個特別預算裡面會編了這個460億那這460億基本上主要要支持的對象主要大概就是傳統性的產業跟這個中小微企業因為高科技產業基本上是相對而言是比較沒有受到這次關稅或是國際形勢的一些影響所以他們也比較不會用到這個460億對"},{"start":275.908,"end":303.582,"text":"那所以我們為什麼因為這個關稅的影響最重要還是那具體上461你要怎麼去協助這一些受到受到關稅影響的產業第一個他的訂單如果沒有訂單就慘了所以我們為什麼要保住他的訂單那保住他的訂單多元開拓市場他們去除了美國市場之外他還有去其他的地方要去參展我們給他補助甚至於設台灣館因為中小企業可能"},{"start":304.142,"end":329.139,"text":"沒有辦法做到這一點那我們也會把顧客引導到台灣來那這個是訂單希望他不要中斷另外一個是他的金流也不要中斷所以雨天不收傘甚至還要撐更大的傘就是兩個嘛一方面就是希望他們協助他們在國外找訂單那協助他們在國外找訂單這件事我跟部長稍微呼籲一下因為很多產業是跟我講過去台灣在面對產業的時候往往"},{"start":334.685,"end":338.358,"text":"你看到他們越要去參加越大型的國際展"},{"start":339.881,"end":363.015,"text":"結果我們經濟部就會認為說你就有人家去參加大型的三展了所以反而對他們協助的力道反而變小事實上應該要反向要去做既然有人要去參加大型的你就要讓他去拚大大隻回來所以我們應該要站在說要怎麼讓他們可以去跟國際的企業競爭"},{"start":365.256,"end":382.337,"text":"而不是在國內斤斤計較說你這一家企業就已經本身有夠強了你不需要政府再去協助你做訂單這個觀念不能這樣所以我們是全面性的因為很感謝立法院給我們這樣的額度所以可以我們比較充裕"},{"start":383.297,"end":396.566,"text":"對於這個全面性的461金額不少啊是啊 但是產業有這麼多種他們大家如果要去拚國際淨灘經濟部就是要給他們可以到位的協助讓他們可以多去拚拚他們的產品拚他們的產品可以給國外的人可以接受這個是經濟部要去打拚的所以我們現在做法就是這樣子 沒有錯"},{"start":409.793,"end":423.621,"text":"那期待啦因為460億都已經編了可以執行了嘛那現在開始有不少產業已經在問我了那接下來要怎麼做因為確實他們現在看到的就是我剛講的光是鋼鋁50%"},{"start":426.422,"end":446.36,"text":"50%的關稅 這個真的對國內這一些鋼鋁的這一些產業鏈他們的衝擊真的是很大所以我覺得部長你要靠你下鄉去跟這些傳統產業跟這些工具機器產業 你自己去開工一下除了我自己之外的話 我們事實上在北中南東已經成立了這個輔導團"},{"start":448.74,"end":469.143,"text":"工協會還有我們二十幾個法人全部把它集結起來然後分這個區域主動式的去拜會這些廠商看看他們需要真正的協助是什麼那我們就來 部長你要相信過去台灣有很多像這種工具局甚至像那種做馬達的我們家依舊有一家做馬達"},{"start":469.864,"end":498.106,"text":"它都是台灣的隱形冠軍欸是是是 要做那種一些反正在一些工具機一些做包膜的啦怎樣台灣都很強而且我們這個強是在於我們的產品是有創新的我們有辦法做出世界看起來我們的品質是好的但是我們遇到的關稅的衝擊的時候經濟部今天下箱下去讓大家關心前兩天我還去馬首厚第一期啊那個做地毯的那個"},{"start":498.886,"end":521.992,"text":"他就做得非常好 他還要加裝他知道我們有太舊換新的這個機械補助以後他就要趕快來申請因為他的確要買一個比較先進的機械所以部長這樣就對了下鄉然後去聽產業的心聲然後461的預算就直接讓他們可以感受到困難的時候進戶及時的救援然後馬上協助他們 好不好是是是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":888,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時21分）謝謝主席，是不是有請部長？"],["主席：再請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。首先還是要問一下，今天大家都在關心整個關稅談判的進度，現在到底會如何？因為賴總統對外也說關稅朝正面的方向在發展，大家還是期待最後談判的進度，到底現在你們的評估狀況是怎樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：就像總統講的，就是說沒有涉及到匯率，這個是總統講的。另外關稅從暫定的20%往下降、不疊加，這個部分是朝比較正面的方向在進行當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：20%往下，又不疊加？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那就很成功啊！大家會期待。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以說這是一個正面的方向。"],["蔡委員易餘：聽起來這一次的談判，大概大家會給整個行政談判團隊掌聲。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝，我們還在努力，因為……"],["蔡委員易餘：如果可以朝向這樣，我們會期待喔！"],["龔部長明鑫：最後的總結會議還沒有開。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，但是部長，既然這樣講了，大家會期待喔！所以真的要努力。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：真的，因為都講出口了嘛！我們都講了，大家就會覺是一個好的狀況。我想要再進一步問，針對232條款呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：232條款跟我們牽扯比較大的主要是半導體的部分，所以我們也會談到一個比較好的條件。美國有一個想法，之前也有講，如果你有去那邊投資的話，基本上是可以豁免，當然我們希望可以豁免的範圍越大越好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們半導體在美國投資目前是有的吧？包括台積電……"],["龔部長明鑫：台積電已經有宣布了……"],["蔡委員易餘：而且事實上臺灣本來就有在美國投資半導體。"],["龔部長明鑫：有。"],["蔡委員易餘：也不是現在才叫半導體業去，是以前就有投資了對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是美國現在是要我們加碼投資。"],["龔部長明鑫：4月2日之前台積電本來就有在美國投資了。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！本來就有了。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在第一個廠也開始正式營運了。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以如果有投資的話，就可以朝向會拿到更好的一個……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為基本上從廠商的角度，台積電一直講，只要有訂單上的需求，它就願意去投資。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：而且它也要賺錢嘛！如果說有訂單，沒賺錢也不可能去，所以就是要確保它有訂單，而且可以賺到錢。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是部長，我想臺灣除了ICT產業之外，事實上還是有其他的產業啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：尤其是傳統產業，傳統產業事實上會因為232條款而受很大的衝擊。"],["龔部長明鑫：目前……"],["蔡委員易餘：鋼鋁目前還是50%耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：鋼鋁產業也是臺灣傳統產業很重要的一環，因為它涉及到後端工具機。所以現在大家都預估，如果現在臺灣整個外銷，ICT產業大概會蓬勃發展，而且外銷訂單會擴張，相對的，傳統的鋼鋁產業大概會進入寒冬，所以就是整個科技產業蓬勃發展，但是傳統產業還是會被這次的關稅、232條款的影響受到衝擊。部長，你身為經濟部長，針對不同的產業要有不同的照顧，那你針對其他的產業呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們之所以特別預算裡面會編了460億，主要就是支持傳統性產業跟中小微企業，因為高科技產業相對而言，比較沒有受到這次關稅或國際形勢的一些影響，所以他們也比較不會用到這460億，因為這個關稅的影響，最重要還是……"],["蔡委員易餘：具體上這460億你要怎麼去協助這些受到關稅影響的產業？"],["龔部長明鑫：首先是訂單，他如果沒有訂單就慘了，所以我們要保住他的訂單，要多元開拓市場，除了美國市場之外，他們還有去其他地方參展，我們給他補助，甚至於設臺灣館，因為中小企業可能沒有辦法做到這一點。我們也會把顧客引導到臺灣來，這是希望他不要中斷訂單。另外一個是他的金流也不要中斷，所以雨天不收傘，甚至還要撐更大的傘……"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，就是兩個嘛！一方面就是協助他們在國外找訂單。"],["龔部長明鑫：對！"],["蔡委員易餘：關於協助他們在國外找訂單這件事，我跟部長稍微呼籲一下，因為很多產業跟我講，過去臺灣在面對產業的時候，往往你看到他們越是去參加越大型的國際展，結果我們經濟部就會認為，你就有能力去參加大型的商展，對他們協助的力道反而變小，事實上應該要反向去做。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然他有能力去參加大型的，你就要讓他去拚、去把大單接回來。所以我們應該要站在怎麼讓他們可以去跟國際企業競爭的角度，而不是在國內斤斤計較，說你這家企業本身就已經有夠強，不需要政府再去協助你做訂單，這個觀念不能這樣。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以我們是全面性的，很感謝立法院給我們這樣的額度，讓我們可以比較充裕，對於全面性的保障……"],["蔡委員易餘：460億金額不少啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是產業有這麼多種，大家如果要去拚國際訂單，經濟部就是要給他們可以到位的協助，讓他們有辦法去跟國際的企業拚產品，讓國外的人可以接受，這個是經濟部要去努力的。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們現在的作法就是這樣子沒有錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，期待啦！因為460億都已經編了，可以執行了嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在開始有不少產業在問我接下來要怎麼做，因為確實他們現在看到的就是我剛剛講的，光是鋼鋁50%的關稅，這個真的對國內這些鋼鋁的產業鏈，他們的衝擊真的是很大。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們現在……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得部長，你可能要下鄉去跟這些傳統產業、跟這些工具機產業聊一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：除了我自己之外，事實上我們在北、中、南、東已經成立了輔導團，公協會還有我們二十幾個法人，全部把它集結起來，分區域主動式的去拜會這些廠商，看看他們需要真正的協助是什麼，我們就來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長要相信，過去臺灣有很多這種工具機，甚至像做馬達的，我們嘉義就有一家，都是臺灣的隱形冠軍。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：一些工具機、一些做包膜的，臺灣都很強，而且是強在我們的產品是有創新的，我們有辦法做出世界看起來品質是好的，但是我們遇到關稅的衝擊，經濟部應該下鄉去關心大家……"],["龔部長明鑫：有，前兩天第一期我還去馬稠後，做地毯的就做得非常好，他還要加裝，他知道我們有汰舊換新的機械補助以後，他就要趕快來申請，因為他的確要買一個比較先進的機械。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長這樣就對了，下鄉去聽產業的心聲，然後460億的預算直接讓他們可以感受到，在他們困難的時候政府即時救援，馬上協助他們好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常的感謝，接下來我們請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們邀請國科會主委請務主委張委員好主委好喔 好 等我一下午的簡報欸 出來了齁 好"},{"start":22.851,"end":36.162,"text":"我想針對於台南沙崙科學園區民團現在有一些疑慮我不曉得這邊主委清不清楚我簡單陳述一下他們的一些想法"},{"start":37.603,"end":57.437,"text":"就是說從這個生態保育團體像是中華民國的野鳥學會它就有提到說這個沙崙農場這邊其實是被農業部列為草生地的保育軸帶是我們台灣特有種原生種的這個草消和環境質的一個重要棲地那團體就會質疑說將名為生態的園區"},{"start":59.699,"end":77.719,"text":"选址在公认的生态敏感区会不会让草消失去他的家破坏他的觅食或是繁殖的一个地方同时13个环保团体也联合声明说沙伦健康园区生态园区的开发案将会使农场面积消失"},{"start":78.38,"end":107.318,"text":"四分之一呼吁新的开发景限于既有的高铁特区并且将沙伦农场纳入为农业发展区的第一类维持它的根地的利用同时办理生态补偿像是推动炒销友善农业第三个也有一些农民担心说因为他是用年约来承住这个地方来有这个收入一旦化为园区将会失去根地生技的保障"},{"start":107.958,"end":123.036,"text":"那最後呢也有一些團體他們擔心說開發會帶來工業污染影響灌溉水源與地下水品質所以我知道說在2025年的9月呢這個其實已經送到國發會審議通過了現在也要送到行政院來核定然後也會開始進入相關的環評"},{"start":126.311,"end":143.822,"text":"但是我想大家現在最大的爭議其實是一個地方的信任感的問題他們擔心的就是說這個是生態園區還是破壞生態的園區所以我想是不是可以請那個主委簡單的說明就是說現在的一個相關進度到底是什麼"},{"start":145.046,"end":161.547,"text":"好 谢谢委员关心这个事那我们也了解到我们国内很多的生态保育的团体也非常关心这个事情我们自从公告沙伦生态科学园区的规划"},{"start":162.148,"end":181.507,"text":"以後其實我們也接收到很多的團體的關心不過事實上我們從去年開始就已經做了很多的研究我們也邀請學術界相關領域的專長教授也來進行各種各樣的調查"},{"start":182.997,"end":201.085,"text":"那很多的在地的这个生态保育的团体也都有跟我们也接触过过程当中他们给了我们很多的建议也非常感谢他们那这些建议有不错的建议我们都已经在执行当中包含去尝试说在营造更多的这个"},{"start":201.525,"end":219.858,"text":"可能的棲地跟密實地那密實地我們將來也是要邀請我們的農民來做這個有機的耕種這個事情甚至政府都可以補助這些農民那除了這個沙崙這個區域之外因為我們的這個非常寶貴的草銷"},{"start":220.919,"end":247.152,"text":"它其實是也不會只有在這個區域活動這個草蕭的分布從雲加拿一直到屏東其實都非常多的地方我們都發現到他們的這個棲地跟密實地所以對政府來講不能夠只看一個科學園區的發展而是整體的這個生態的這個保育怎麼樣讓我們的這個經濟的發展跟這個生態可以並存這個事情是行政院跨部會我們一起努力在做的"},{"start":247.532,"end":262.392,"text":"那我想要特別提醒一件事情就是說我們現在呢其實是政府有說要生態先行來推動園區承諾會保留三分之一的空間來作為植被自拿自紅空間也會做棲地補償"},{"start":263.533,"end":277.98,"text":"但是主委我想要提醒這個說法我覺得民間可能好像不一定會接受因為我們提出來的這個二人溪的區域其實它原本就已經是草消的棲地所以等於是拿原本的棲地來補償那這到底算補償嗎"},{"start":279.741,"end":302.649,"text":"我們的做法其實是,我們做法是說,原來如果說它是棲地的話,它棲地到處都是啦,有非常多地方,但是你沒有好好的去營造去管理的話,它不見得會聚集在這個地方。我們要把環境弄得很好,我們要去管理,管理不要有野狗啦,不要有很多人為的干擾等等。"},{"start":303.229,"end":318.357,"text":"這些東西如果沒有沒有這個經濟的這個支撐沒有政府進來因為我們開發園區我們發展的很好政府有預算可以來協助這個生態的保育的話讓它自生自滅它其實是會越來越少的"},{"start":319.144,"end":346.266,"text":"好我想這個說法我想可能大家還是會有一點疑慮但是我想我的想法就是這樣子我們就是跟團體好好的溝通看要怎麼來去處置這個問題特別是因為大家有提到就是說在歐美的一些生態補償的制度是說我們要利用富裕改善或創造棲地的方式來去做彌補來維持整體的生態環境品質不會去失衡那特別是歐盟的2014年的研究是說少一塊棲地至少要有100塊"},{"start":346.966,"end":376.023,"text":"快去补足那要怎么达到我想这个就是让你们来跟团体持续的讨论重视当地的一个声音这样子好那接下来呢我想要讲一个AI的新十大建设的一个推动计划目前我们已经从204我们预估在204年会创造新台币约15兆的经济价值涵盖智慧应用关键技术数位基础的三大面向那不仅是产业政策更是国家科技战略的核心布局"},{"start":377.303,"end":400.351,"text":"主委您也有提到說智慧機器人、量子科技、矽光子、主權AI等四項新科技將會由國科會來負責並且鼓勵大家來投入資料中心跟應用服務來打造AI之道不過我想大家都是聽到口號比較多實際的計畫到底是什麼主委可不可以簡單幫我們說明一下一些比較具體的計畫、方案還有一個進度、時程的部分"},{"start":401.263,"end":421.058,"text":"我们在AI机器人的方案里面行政院已经通过也公告了执行面包含国科会会在沙伦地区成立一个国家机器人研究中心之外我们经济部也在公务院的"},{"start":422.519,"end":437.013,"text":"南分院就是六甲台南的六甲院区也会成立一个新的跟产业界合作的共创的研发中心然后我们也在台南的台南的这个柳岩科工区"},{"start":437.814,"end":454.717,"text":"也會希望台灣市政府配合能夠擴建這個領域客戶計算好 我想問一下聽起來好像你們都已經有一些詳細的計劃具體的計劃了都有計劃了那因為時間寶貴啦我想是不是可以把計劃跟時程提供到我們辦公室可不可以好 謝謝那這大概什麼時候可以提供到我們辦公室呢"},{"start":456.562,"end":467.787,"text":"這個應該應該馬上就因為聽起來是很我們兩個禮拜內就送過去這還要兩個禮拜不是聽起來已經很具體了嗎應該一個禮拜就可以了吧他們還要整理整理一下好了 兩個禮拜了好不好"},{"start":469.543,"end":489.855,"text":"我想要針對 因為剛剛一直在講AI這件事情可是立法院的預算中心也有提到一個報告是說國科會自107年推動的AI行動計畫已經編列了252億的經費可是AI的應用是並不顯著的我們台灣的AI成熟度甚至是全球倒數第三"},{"start":490.715,"end":502.527,"text":"主委您也有说过我们过去是强调在硬体的投资可是我们对于软体的部分还有云端的服务都是相对缺乏的所以你们在预算的部分其实是有做一些规划的对不对好 那我想要请"},{"start":504.009,"end":529.03,"text":"主委我們就針對應用的部分來做一些詳細的討論第一個這個是Oxford Insights的一個報告他就有去強調說我們台灣在該指數的得分是74.58其實算是中上特別是我們是在政府政策治理以及資料基礎設施上面相對其他國家我們很強可是一樣回到我們在技術的產業上面是相對的弱得分只有56.37"},{"start":531.272,"end":553.14,"text":"另外一個根據CISCO的台灣AI Readiness Index的一個報告也提到說我們不到三分之一的公司認為自己在AI的資料準備度上面是高的所以我想這都代表就是回應到剛剛講的我們在企業的導入跟應用上面是非常需要來協助的"},{"start":554.557,"end":572.319,"text":"那特別是我也可以看到說日本其實在最近的Stanford的一個全球AI活躍度的排名他們從第四名掉到了第九名特別是在深層式AI出來之後他們在企業的導入跟實用化速度比較慢所以我就想要請教"},{"start":573.48,"end":586.925,"text":"雖然說Stanford他並沒有評比台灣但我想太多的數據都已經告訴我們了我們必須強化AI的應用那台灣中小企業這麼多我們政府打算怎麼做我們在2029年有沒有對企業訂定明確的目標"},{"start":588.329,"end":607.834,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的確過去比較屬於第一個階段的發展我們注重在台灣的半導體的實力我們又時間有限了我們就直接回到中小企業實質我們的方向跟目標是什麼對 但是如果我們沒有做那件事我們今天其實也只能仰賴外來的企業來提供服務我沒有意見 對"},{"start":609.114,"end":625.328,"text":"现在我们的预算的编列在AI新十大建设里面委员可以看到说我们有谈到说我们要发展全民智慧生活圈这个事情全民智慧生活圈意思就是要谈应用了"},{"start":625.828,"end":639.856,"text":"那应用一定是百光百业不是只有制造业还有这个服务业制造业本身也需要那我想问一下我们有没有一个明确的目标在2029年有多少的企业要达到我们可以真的把AI应用在他们的日常工作上我们有这个明确的目标吗"},{"start":640.751,"end":667.541,"text":"我們這個目標從數字上來看現在是很難預估但是現在我們明年的預算編列我們已經把這個我想主委抱歉我打斷一下因為我想我們還是要一個非常的明確目標你才知道你的投資你的方向到底是不是正確的所以我想這個部分的話因為時間已經差不多了是不是可以把你們現在的一個相關的計畫一個規劃可以提供給我那這大概是多久可以提供給我"},{"start":668.221,"end":694.838,"text":"应该一样我们这两个礼拜一起提供好不好那这个到时候我们可能也就在会后约个时间来详细讨论那最后我再借用一点点时间我还是很想要感谢主委在今年非常支持在Kids Science里面有台语的科普的活动在里面那其实有一些母语家庭都有跟我说他们非常感谢所以我也希望把他们的感谢之意可以转达给主委那他们也希望这不是只有一次"},{"start":695.899,"end":724.094,"text":"未來還可以持續喔是可以嗎沒問題好謝謝韋爺抱歉好那最後再一點時間就是我這次因為去看Key Science的時候我看到那個量子科學的這個展這個薛定格的展連我這個外行人看了都覺得非常薛定格的貓抱歉連我這個外行人看了都覺得非常非常有趣那我就在想一件事情因為量子技術當天大家一直在洗腦我嘛量子技術其實是一個下一代的運算基礎對於我們的AI發展非常非常的重要"},{"start":724.614,"end":751.352,"text":"所以這麼重要的東西我們是不是可以讓更多的孩子了解這件事情呢那我們去年呢其實是國科會有補助一個實習生筆記本那獲得了金鐘自然科學計時節目的一個獎項我們可不可以更積極主動的把像這樣子的東西呢提出跟文化部跟教育部合作可能有一些科普創作的扶植計畫讓這樣子的東西並不是只是一個展可以透過日常的節目讓孩子都可以去理解"},{"start":752.076,"end":757.368,"text":"好 我們客戶處其實有持續編列預算我們希望他加強這一部分謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我們邀請國科會主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。針對臺南沙崙科學園區，民團現在有一些疑慮，不曉得主委清不清楚，我簡單陳述一下他們的一些想法，生態保育團體像中華民國野鳥學會就有提到，沙崙農場這邊是被農業部列為草生地保育軸帶，是我們臺灣特有種、原生種的草鴞和環頸雉一個重要的棲地，因此，團體就會質疑說，將名為生態的園區選址在公認的生態敏感區，會不會讓草鴞失去牠的家、破壞牠覓食或是繁殖的地方？同時有13個環保團體也發表聯合聲明說，沙崙健康生態園區開發案將會使農場面積消失四分之一，呼籲新的開發僅限於既有的高鐵特區，並且將沙崙農場納為農業發展區的第一類，維持它耕地的利用，同時辦理生態補償，像是推動草鴞友善農業。","第三個，也有一些農民很擔心，因為這是用年約來承租這個地方，讓其有收入，一旦劃為園區，將會失去耕地跟生計的保障；也有一些團體擔心說，開發會帶來工業污染，影響灌溉水源與地下水品質。","我知道2025年9月這個案子已經送到國發會審議通過了，現在也要送行政院核定，然後會開始進入相關的環評，但是我想現在最大的爭議，其實是地方信任感的問題，他們擔心的是，這是生態園區還是破壞生態的園區？所以是不是可以請主委簡單說明現在相關的進度到底是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員關心這個事，我們也了解到國內很多生態保育團體也非常關心這個事情，自從我們公告沙崙生態科學園區的規劃以後，其實我們也接收到很多團體的關心，不過事實上我們從去年開始，就已經做了很多的研究，也邀請學術界相關領域、專長的教授，也來進行各種各樣的調查，很多在地的生態保育團體，也都有跟我們接觸過，在這個過程當中，他們給了我們很多的建議，也非常感謝他們，而這些建議當中有不錯的建議，我們都已經在執行當中，包含嘗試營造更多可能的棲地跟覓食地，像覓食地的部分，將來也是會邀請我們的農民來做有機的耕種，甚至政府都可以補助這些農民。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：除了沙崙這個區域之外，我們非常寶貴的草鴞，其實不會只有在這個區域活動，草鴞的分布是從雲嘉南一直到屏東，其實有非常多的地方我們都發現到牠們的棲地跟覓食地，所以對政府來講，不能只看一個科學園區的發展，而是應就整體的生態保育，看看怎麼樣讓我們的經濟發展跟生態可以並存，這個事情是行政院跨部會我們一起努力在做的。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要特別提醒一件事情，現在政府有說要生態先行來推動園區，承諾會保留三分之一的空間來作為植被、滯洪空間，也會做棲地補償。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想要提醒主委，這個說法我覺得民間可能好像不一定會接受，因為你們所提的二仁溪區域，其實它原本就已經是草鴞的棲地，所以等於是拿原本的棲地來補償，到底這是否算是補償？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的做法是……如果你說那個地方是棲地的話，其實牠的棲地到處都是，有非常多地方都是牠的棲地，但是若沒有好好的去營造、管理的話，牠不見得會聚集在這個地方，所以我們要把牠環境弄得很好，我們要去管理，不要有野狗，不要有很多人為的干擾等等，這些東西如果沒有經濟的支持、沒有政府進來……因為我們開發園區時，雖然我們發展得很好，但政府有預算可以來協助生態保育，否則讓牠自生自滅的話，牠其實是會越來越少的。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。我想這個說法大家可能還是會有一點疑慮。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們可以跟他們溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我的想法是，就是跟團體好好的溝通，看看要怎麼處置這個問題，特別是大家有提到歐美採用一些生態補償制度，是利用復育改善或創造棲地的方式來彌補，維持整體的生態環境品質不會失衡，特別是歐盟2014年的研究說少一塊棲地至少要用100塊去補足，要怎麼達到？我想這就是要讓你們跟團體持續的討論。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：要重視當地的聲音。","接下來，我想要講一個AI新十大建設的推動計畫，我們預估在2040年會創造約15兆新臺幣的經濟價值，涵蓋智慧應用、關鍵技術、數位基礎等三大面向，不僅是產業政策，更是國家科技戰略的核心布局。","主委也有提到智慧機器人、量子科技、矽光子、主權AI等四項新科技將會由國科會來負責，並且鼓勵大家投入資料中心跟應用服務來打造AI之島，不過，我想大家都是聽到口號比較多，實際的計畫到底是什麼，主委可不可以簡單幫我們說明一下？包括一些比較具體的計畫、方案、進度、時程的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在AI機器人的方案裡面，行政院已經通過也公告了，在執行面的部分，包含國科會會在沙崙地區成立一個國家機器人研究中心；除此之外，經濟部在工研院的南分院，也就是臺南的六甲院區，也會與產業界合作成立一個新的共創研發中心，另外我們也希望臺南市政府配合能夠擴建柳營科工區。"],["張委員雅琳：聽起來好像你們都已經有一些詳細具體的計畫……"],["吳主任委員誠文：都有計畫了。"],["張委員雅琳：因為時間寶貴，你們是不是可以把計畫跟時程提供到我們辦公室，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以提供到我們辦公室呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們兩個禮拜內就送過去。"],["張委員雅琳：這還要兩個禮拜？聽起來不是已經很具體了嗎？應該一個禮拜就可以了吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們還要整理一下。"],["張委員雅琳：好啦！兩個禮拜啦！好不好？","剛剛一直在講AI這件事情，可是立法院的預算中心也有提到一個報告，說國科會自107年推動的AI行動計畫已經編列了252億元經費，可是AI的應用並不顯著，我們臺灣的AI成熟度甚至是全球倒數第三。","主委你也有說過我們過去是強調在硬體的投資，可是軟體的部分還有雲端的服務都是相對缺乏的，所以你們在預算的部分其實是有做一些規劃的，對不對？現在我想與主委針對應用的部分來做一些詳細的討論。","第一個是Oxford Insights的報告強調說我們臺灣在該指數的得分是74.58，其實算是中上，特別在政府政策治理以及資料基礎設施上面，相對其他國家，我們很強，可是在技術產業上面是相對弱的，得分只有56.37。另外，根據CISCO的Taiwan AI Readiness Index報告也提到說，我們有不到三分之一的公司認為自己在AI資料準備度上面是夠的、是高的。","我想這都回應到剛剛講的，我們在企業的導入跟應用上面是非常非常需要協助的，特別是我看到日本最近在Stanford全球AI活躍度的排名從第四名掉到了第九名，尤其是在生成式AI出來之後，他們在企業的導入跟實用化速度比較慢，所以我想要請教主委，雖然Stanford並沒有評比臺灣，但我想有太多的數據都已經告訴我們必須強化AI的應用，那臺灣中小企業這麼多，我們政府打算怎麼做？我們在2029年有沒有對企業訂定明確的目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，的確我們過去比較屬於第一個階段的發展，我們注重在臺灣的半導體實力……"],["張委員雅琳：因為時間有限，我們就直接回到中小企業，我們實質的方向跟目標是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是如果我們沒有做那件事，我們今天其實也只能仰賴外來的企業來幫我們。"],["張委員雅琳：這個我沒有意見。"],["吳主任委員誠文：在AI新十大建設編列的預算裡面，委員可以看到我們有談到要發展全民智慧生活圈，全民智慧生活圈的意思就是要談應用了，那應用一定是百工百業，不是只有製造業，還有服務業，製造業本身也需要……"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，我們有沒有一個明確的目標，在2029年有多少的企業要達到可以真的把AI應用在他們的日常工作上？我們有這個明確的目標嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的目標，從數字上來看，現在是很難預估啦！但是我們明年的預算編列已經把這個……"],["張委員雅琳：主委！抱歉我打斷一下，因為我想我們還是要有一個非常明確的目標才知道你的投資和方向到底是不是正確的，因為我的發言時間差不多到了，是不是可以把你們現在相關的規劃提供給我？大概多久可以提供給我？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一樣，我們到時候一起提供。"],["張委員雅琳：兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分我們可能在會後約個時間來詳細討論。最後我再借用一點點時間，感謝主委今年非常支持在Kids' 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謝謝"},{"start":23.703,"end":52.068,"text":"那個我在這裡要先請教那個徐竹密就執密啦徐竹密就是說針對的就是說在這一次農產品的零關稅還有就是農產品的零關稅還有他在畜牧產業裡頭標示的就是說不得標示那個肉品的進口來源這兩個議題先跟你做一個探討因為"},{"start":52.808,"end":76.124,"text":"台南就是稻米跟畜牧的一個重鎮那這一次稻米關稅跟糧食安全當然我們希望一定會守住國家的底線因為看起來就是說這整個談判的過程裡頭我們是把晶片跟工業放在優先那是不是會犧牲掉農業尤其是稻米的一個產業那我們還會維持一個公糧的制度嗎"},{"start":77.641,"end":91.65,"text":"向委員報告就是說我們在談判的過程中一向是都是秉持四大的原則就是國家利益產業利益國民健康以及糧食安全來跟跟美方來進行談判那美方也知道我們這四大的原則所以你還是繼續會就是公糧繼續收購嗎"},{"start":94.346,"end":117.077,"text":"有關於整個談判的細節 因為談判還在進行當中所以就是還是等到談判結束的時候有沒有這樣的一個準備呢還是公糧你還是會維持就是說是一個那個26塊然後就是虎島收購的價錢還是維持在24.5塊錢就是說起碼這個數字是不會改變太大的"},{"start":119.037,"end":143.138,"text":"我沒有討論過啦 不能講因為這個就已經牽涉到這個協商的細節你要知道這個制度在台灣二十幾年都沒有改變你不能讓台灣民因為關稅配額的一個制度其實大家這些道龍都是在喘息中求生存"},{"start":144.582,"end":170.58,"text":"所以尤其是中南部很多的一個農地他們還是用來種稻米的所以我在這裡要特別跟徐主秘做這樣的一個報告你要特別的關心還有豬肉的一個關稅跟產業的一個轉型怎麼樣穩定豬農的一個信心那我在這裡請教農業部就是林主秘委員好"},{"start":172.242,"end":200.079,"text":"我想針對的就是說台中無期一個三百場是用用這個等於是他是吃那個廚藝的就是吃噴的那就是我們在這裡頭我們10月10號發現有狀況了10月14號那就是說這個豬場爆上去了那台中台中的那個動保處來檢驗因為他說在治療中所以他沒有採驗檢體"},{"start":202.011,"end":219.258,"text":"到了昨天 昨天為止他講說死了117頭其中有一頭我們檢驗出就是惠州豬瘟核酸 核酸陽性所謂核酸陽性就表示已經是傳染到了"},{"start":220.273,"end":248.829,"text":"可是 祖密 一隻蝶 四十五天它的病毒還是存在的尤其是非洲豬瘟它是一個大顆粒的病毒你們現在剛才在記者會上面做了五項五項的一個防疫的一個措施是不是有沒有掌握到就是說這個豬場在範圍五公里內有沒有其他的一個豬場也是受感染啊你知不知道"},{"start":249.742,"end":262.82,"text":"跟委員報告一下就如同剛剛委員所講的我們農業部的獸醫研究所昨天早上11點44分收到台中東寶處送來的這個檢體那我們在昨天的下午6點"},{"start":264.249,"end":277.892,"text":"再用PCR驗出這個就是確定了嘛你核酸就是確定了我跟你講你CPR確定了以後你有沒有全國現在開始全國少一次我跟你說祖密我是獸醫我對這個問題我非常非常的緊張你要知道我們已經20年20年完全就是非洲豬瘟已經那個都是節炎體的"},{"start":288.895,"end":308.246,"text":"那你這麼大的一個問題這個考驗到我們農業部在這個危機處理上的一個真正的一個應變的應變的一個方式啊不然你會害死這這麼大龐大的一個那個豬籠啊好來繼續我要知道5公里內有沒有其他的豬場目前是3公里3公里有幾場"},{"start":311.229,"end":325.394,"text":"不過我還是要跟委員報告雖然我們昨天晚上部長有召開緊急的會議但是因為今天早上七點半有一個專家諮詢小組的會議是那剛剛九點十點是記者會現在目前這個當下是中央應變中心的這個會議"},{"start":326.414,"end":346.044,"text":"所以這一些會因為我一早就來這邊所以我們便沒有參加所以對於相關的應變措施有沒有掌握就是說在這個租場周邊有沒有租場這個是非常重要的你現在全國禁運五天這個是合理的就是我們要注意到生物安全你現在就是不可以退出你知道嗎你如果退出的時候你就全國都死了這個是非常嚴重的啊到底他的周邊有沒有租場啊"},{"start":353.448,"end":368.985,"text":"你有沒有掌控啊昨天的報告是昨天的報告送來的時候是三公里內是有兩場但是其中的一場是早就停養了所以另外那一場規模多大"},{"start":370.564,"end":372.066,"text":"我沒有辦法在這邊做回答很簡單的這些基礎的"},{"start":385.407,"end":412.522,"text":"注意生物安全 完全完全就是把他牽住了聽起來因為他是吃噴的聽說這一個病毒跟越南的病毒其實是相近的所以這個防疫有破口可是這個防疫破口如果我們可以把他防堵起來的話這個就等於是一個空襲警報所以應該要非常非常的謹慎"},{"start":413.567,"end":439.58,"text":"是 我們也馬上會在台中設立一個這個前進的應變所我們杜次長會下去當任這個指揮官是 好 謝謝那我想在這針對的就是美國關稅跟我國出口供應鏈的一個支持我們看到了190億裡頭完全都沒有畜牧產業這個也是要請你們另外再來報告好不好是 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時15分）謝謝主席，有請行政院經貿談判辦公室徐執行秘書、農業部主秘、農糧署主秘、動植物防疫檢驗署列席人員。"],["主席：請上列人員上臺備詢，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：先請教徐執秘。"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：針對農產品零關稅及畜牧產業必須標示肉品進口來源這兩個議題跟您探討。臺南是稻米跟畜牧的重鎮，這一次稻米關稅跟糧食安全，當然我們希望一定會守住國家的底線，因為看起來在整個談判的過程裡頭，我們是把晶片跟工業放在優先，那是不是會犧牲掉農業尤其是稻米產業？我們還會維持公糧的制度嗎？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：向委員報告，我們在談判的過程中一向都是秉持四大的原則：國家利益、產業利益、國民健康、糧食安全，用以跟美方進行談判，美方也知道我們這四大的原則。"],["賴委員惠員：所以會繼續收購公糧嗎？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：有關於整個談判的細節，因為談判還在進行當中，所以還是等到談判結束時……"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有這樣的準備？就是公糧還是會維持26塊，輔導收購的價錢還是維持在24.5塊，起碼這個數字是不會改變太大的？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：向委員報告……"],["賴委員惠員：你們有討論過嗎？還是不能講？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：對，因為這已經牽涉到協商的細節。"],["賴委員惠員：你要知道這個制度在台灣二十幾年都沒有改變，你不能讓台灣米因為關稅配額的制度受影響，其實這些稻農都是在喘息中求生存，尤其中南部很多很多的農地還是用來種稻米，所以我在這裡要特別跟徐執秘做這樣一個報告……"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：不敢。"],["賴委員惠員：你要特別特別關心這部分。","另外，有關豬肉的關稅跟產業的轉型怎麼樣穩定豬農的信心，請教農業部林主秘。"],["林主任秘書家榮：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：臺中市梧棲區一養豬場是吃廚餘的，在10月10日發現有狀況，10月14日該豬場報上去，臺中動保處來檢驗，他說因為在治療中所以沒有採驗檢體，到昨天為止死了117頭，其中一頭檢驗出非洲豬瘟核酸陽性反應，所謂核酸陽性就表示已經傳染到了。請教主秘，一隻豬死了15天，它的病毒還是存在的，尤其是非洲豬瘟是大顆粒的病毒，你們剛才在記者會上面做了五項的防疫措施，有沒有掌握到這個豬場在5公里範圍內有沒有其他的豬場受到感染？你知不知道？"],["林主任秘書家榮：跟委員報告，如同剛剛委員所講，農業部的獸醫研究所昨天早上11時44分收到臺中動保處送來的檢體，我們在昨天下午6時用PCR驗出……"],["賴委員惠員：就是確定了嘛，核酸就是確定了嘛，我跟你講，PCR確定了以後，你現在開始有沒有全國掃一次？我跟你說，主秘，我是獸醫，我對這個問題非常非常的緊張，你要知道我們已經20年完全是非洲豬瘟絕緣體了，這麼大一個問題考驗農業部面對危機處理的一個應變的方式，不然你會害死這麼龐大的豬農，接著我要知道5公里內有沒有其他的豬場……"],["林主任秘書家榮：目前是3公里管制，不過我還是要跟委員報告，雖然部長在昨天晚上有召開緊急會議，但是因為今天早上七點半有一個專家諮詢小組會議，剛剛10點是記者會，目前這個當下是中央應變中心的會議，因為我一早就來這邊，所以我們並沒有參加這些會議，所以對於相關的應變措施，我沒有辦法詳細……"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有掌握在這一個豬場周邊有沒有其他豬場？這個是非常重要的，現在全國禁運5天，這個是合理的，我們要注意到生物安全，你現在就是不能擴散出去，你知道嗎？"],["林主任秘書家榮：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：如果擴散出去了，那就傳染到全部都是了，這個是非常嚴重的啊！"],["林主任秘書家榮：沒有錯，所以才需要管制。"],["賴委員惠員：那到底它的周邊有沒有豬場？你有沒有掌控？"],["林主任秘書家榮：昨天的報告送來是3公里內有兩場，但是其中一場早就停養了。"],["賴委員惠員：另外那一場規模多大？"],["林主任秘書家榮：跟委員報告，就像我剛剛講的，這些都是在今天早上的專家會議討論，因為我沒有出席那個專家會議，我沒有辦法在這邊做回答。"],["賴委員惠員：你是主任秘書耶，這麼大的一個問題，這個很簡單的，有關基礎的注意生物安全，完全就是把它圈住了。"],["林主任秘書家榮：沒錯，這是非常重要的。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然聽起來，因為這些豬隻是吃廚餘，聽說這個病毒跟越南的病毒其實是相近的，所以這個防疫有破口，可是這個防疫破口如果我們可以把它防堵起來的話，這就等於是一個空襲警報，所以應該要非常的謹慎。"],["林主任秘書家榮：是，我們馬上在臺中會設立前進應變所，杜次長會去擔任指揮官。"],["賴委員惠員：是，謝謝。","繼續針對美國關稅跟我國出口供應鏈的支持，我們看到了190億裡頭完全沒有畜牧產業，這也要請你們另外再來報告，好不好？"],["林主任秘書家榮：是。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","賴惠員","林德福","黃國昌","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「近期台美關係及關稅談判進展」，併請行政院經貿談判辦公室、經\n濟部、農業部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00006"}}},{"id":"164567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dac8b290e2e1085147e072f7c27276b8ae83c966d97180d5d2799c8eb37eb667cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:15:54 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OK好 沒關係 這沒有聲音這是我前天去獅子鄉也就是豐港溪流域鄰近的族人在做抗議抗議最主要的訴求是希望能夠遠離雞屎味希望不要再河床種植西瓜後來我們去了那個地方以後發現有四個違法的明顯違法的事實第一個是使用生雞糞"},{"start":61.613,"end":86.827,"text":"第二个是撕屁道路第三个是破坏河体第四个是在河床上新建铁皮屋所以我想请问我们副作地方政府是否长期纵容业者违反县府的规范在未登陆地或者是野稀全责不清的区域违法种植导致环境污染数十年然后这是系统性的执法失灵还是行政怠惰"},{"start":87.507,"end":106.819,"text":"报告委员这个案件我们有掌握那这个是县政府管理的河川那在委员这个积极的关切之下呢我们其实已经有跟县政府这边积极来督促他们赶快来做处理所以他目前要进行裁判是将近大概是新台币"},{"start":108.035,"end":135.715,"text":"两万五到五十万元之间不过这是将进行采访可是我们主任的诉求是说希望能够就它违法的部分如果是确实违法的话它应该是按照我们78条之一种西瓜使用生鸡粪饮水都需许可违规可撤销然后91条之二就是说以违反许可内容使用的时候可以废止取租约朝这个方向来是我们会来努力OK"},{"start":136.235,"end":159.874,"text":"那现在根据空污法的裁罚他大概也只有罚到五千到十万左右所以对业者来讲可能是一个不是很痛痒的一个裁罚那现在主任有一个明确的诉求就是说他不要任何的补偿金只要将违反乱纪或者是未申请种植西瓜的业主呢予以撤销他的种植证照我先给你看一下大概第四张"},{"start":160.854,"end":165.591,"text":"它违法的区域有这么宽我们到了这个地区的时候"},{"start":166.604,"end":193.751,"text":"发现它也不是七分署管也不是水利署管也不是原民会管这个等于是真空地带那后来问国产署说国产署总是你们的财产吧因为按照我们现在国有财产法第二条规定凡不属于私有或地方所有的财产均是为国有财产可是这个地区是没有经过许可也没有经过登记也没有去申请合法的租约可是这个区块是我们"},{"start":194.511,"end":220.01,"text":"眼睛看到大概十个足球场那么大那你说这样一个区域是就在部落旁边这个他们常常为了规避这些选举他们大概都是半夜或者是大概将近昨天看到的那个选举的民众选举是9点22分在他们村庄那个line上面说就开始飘那个浓浓的鸡屎味也就是说他们利用这个投机取巧的方式来"},{"start":220.529,"end":247.305,"text":"来放这个生机份所以他们希望能够明确的可以终止他们这个租约或者是终止执照好不好是 报告委员我们会来经济协调县政府赶快来做处置对 而且这个属于我们传统领域是涉布利西一个传统领域在1893年曾经发生过援汉的一个冲突造成四个人死亡已经过了100多年133年到目前为止那个区块我们认定它是我们排汉族的传统领域"},{"start":247.705,"end":272.348,"text":"所以就使用這個土地來講應該縣政府在這個要種植西瓜之前應該請業者跟我們鄰近的部落做一個諮商同意權也就是落實原基法第21條的規定可以嗎是 我們會來努力好 那我就希望經濟部在能不能在兩週內提出我們是不是可以撤銷許可中止租業或非止租業的一個"},{"start":274.707,"end":274.727,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時16分）主席，有請龔部長跟水利署署長。"],["主席：請兩位。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好，我們先看一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["盧委員縣一：這是我前天去獅子鄉，也就是楓港溪流域鄰近的族人在做一些抗議，抗議最主要的訴求是希望能夠遠離雞屎味，希望不要在河床種植西瓜，後來我們去了那個地方以後，發現有四個明顯違法的事實：第一個是使用生雞糞，第二個是私闢道路，第三個是破壞河堤，第四個是在河床上興建鐵皮屋。所以我想請問署長，地方政府是否長期縱容業者違反縣府的規範，在未登錄地或者是野溪權責不清的區域違法種植，導致環境污染數十年？你認為這是系統性執法失靈，還是行政怠惰？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，這個案件我們有掌握，這是縣政府管理的河川，在委員積極地關切之下，我們其實已經有跟縣政府積極督促他們趕快處理，所以委員所提的……"],["盧委員縣一：它目前要進行裁罰大概是新臺幣2萬5,000到50萬元之間，不過這是將進行裁罰，可是我們族人的訴求是希望能夠就他違法的部分，如果確實是違法的話，應該是按照第七十八條之一，種西瓜使用生雞糞、引水都需許可，違規可撤銷嘛！第九十一條之二是已違反許可內容使用的時候可以廢止其租約，朝這個方向進行。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：現在根據空污法的裁罰大概也只有罰5,000到10萬左右，所以對業者來講，可能不是一個很痛癢的裁罰。現在族人有一個明確的訴求，就是他不要任何的補償金，只要將違法亂紀或未申請種植西瓜的業主予以撤銷他的種植證照。我先給你看一下，他違法的區域有這麼寬，我們到了這個地區的時候，發現它不是七分署管，也不是水利署管，也不是原民會管，它等於是真空地帶，後來問國產署，這總是國產署的財產吧？因為按照現在國有財產法第二條規定，凡不屬於私有或地方所有的財產，均應視為國有財產。","這個地區沒有經過許可，也沒有經過登記，也沒有去申請合法的租約，可是這個區塊我們用眼睛看大概有10個足球場那麼大，這樣的一個區域就在部落旁邊，他們常常為了規避檢舉，大概都是在半夜，像昨天民眾看到的檢舉是9點22分，他們在村莊LINE上面說開始飄濃濃的雞屎味，也就是業主利用投機取巧的方式放生雞糞，所以族人希望能夠明確地終止他們的租約或註銷種植執照，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：是，報告委員，我們會積極協調縣政府趕快處置。"],["盧委員縣一：對，而且這屬於我們的傳統領域，是射不力溪一個傳統領域，在1893年曾經發生過原漢衝突，造成4人死亡，已經過了一百多年，到目前為止，那個區塊我們認定它是排灣族的傳統領域，所以就使用這個土地來講，縣政府在種植西瓜之前，應該請業者跟我們鄰近的部落做一個諮商同意權，也就是落實原基法第二十一條的規定，可以嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我希望經濟部在兩週內提出，是不是可以撤銷許可，承諾終止租約或廢止租約？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，因為這個權責還是在縣政府，我們會依照委員的意見趕快跟縣政府協調，但是撤不撤銷可能還是要以縣政府的意見為準，我們來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：未登記土地的權責劃分，希望能夠一個月內給本席報告。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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昨天在院會質詢的時候我有問到根據水庫管理辦法我們任何的計畫送來核准一次只能三年喔但是你們的光電板你們自己一核就核了七年喔我今天要在這邊正式的問部長請問你是根據哪一個法條可以"},{"start":39.455,"end":45.366,"text":"超越這個水庫管理辦法的三年的限制然後直接核准洗碗 哪一個法條 請具體說明"},{"start":47.315,"end":74.355,"text":"報告委員這邊講第五條對不對續審時間下月十年其行為人應該向管理機關申請許可那如果他本身是管理機關的話就不是這個是適用第五條了因為農業部他本身是管理機關所以他可以在這個水庫上你是依據哪一個法條這樣子講的在所有的水庫管理辦法哪一條就是說他是管理人的話可以不適用這個辦法因為第五條"},{"start":75.656,"end":100.436,"text":"你告訴我是哪一條不是第五條就是不適用管理機關你告訴我是哪一條啦我們依法論法嘛你直接講出嘛就哪一條嘛如果說你有另外一個規定這個來超越這個辦法這個我接受嘛請問你是用哪一條他是管理機關是本於全責他的辦理所以管理機關就不用嘛好那我要開始答聯你了請注意看喔"},{"start":102.535,"end":124.28,"text":"這個經濟部你知道除了水庫管理辦法之外每一個水庫自己還有執法對不對這個我手上的是經濟部核准的你們自己公告的烏山頭水庫它的蓄水範圍及申請許可事項你們後來在執法裡面也有把光電板放進來了特別針對公告事項有針對光電板"},{"start":125.72,"end":145.645,"text":"但是在你們的公告裡面清清楚楚你的管理機關以烏山水庫來講是嘉南管理處光電廠商要不要送申請 要白紙黑字寫得非常的清楚結果你昨天的新聞稿根本是亂七八糟"},{"start":147.348,"end":166.677,"text":"進行扭曲這個你自己公告的執法你說我只要是我今天加難管理處我就不需要審核不需要有計畫我愛怎麼做就怎麼做實情不是如此啊他們要有一套審核標準那你審核的標準你不是按照水庫管理辦法來嗎"},{"start":167.958,"end":186.554,"text":"那個期限你有在任何的執法裡面說只要是光電廠商一下子我就可以給7年我可以超越水庫管理辦法沒有啊我們今天是依法論法嘛這個經濟部你作為主管水庫的你這個所有的辦法都是你頒布的"},{"start":186.954,"end":210.135,"text":"你不可以自己頒布這樣的一個辦法那今天被委員發現說你在核可這些太陽光電的時候你都超越了水庫管理辦法你一核就核給七年你按照你的水庫管理辦法你就是一次最多三年然後你下一次要再經過你們的同意但是你們現在公告的連這個執法"},{"start":212.797,"end":224.015,"text":"你們都要違反然後昨天在說什麼只要是我們管理單位我們設的這一些光電板這個通通都不適用於這個水庫管理辦法"},{"start":225.792,"end":250.251,"text":"這是違法的你們經濟部到底有沒有法務人員這樣子那個新聞稿可以發出來另外一個很離譜的你們說什麼你們說這一些光電板都是水利水利署相關管理單位的財產你們有沒有去看過業者跟你們訂的契約在契約裡面光電板是廠商有的還是你們相關管理單位有的都亂說一通昨天那個新聞稿是誰發的哪個單位發的"},{"start":253.859,"end":269.746,"text":"誰寫的 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國安法如果我沒有記錯真的是兩年半的準備期結果這樣一個法庭直播三個月上路"},{"start":321.314,"end":350.814,"text":"好理加載民進黨團緊急的召開公聽會收攏了社會各界的反對意見也某種程度的讓民眾黨委員吸納了社會非常反彈的這些點納入了他的修法的修正動議有稍稍的把這個我們拆了一些些蛋但是那個地雷跟炸彈還是在10月16就要上路"},{"start":352.416,"end":362.837,"text":"三個月國民法官法準備了兩年多耶法庭直播三個月就這不是倉促什麼是倉促呢這不是急救章什麼是急救章呢"},{"start":363.942,"end":385.496,"text":"所以說三讀通過的法律法官協會女法官協會再一次發聲明他們都認為也要求喊話司法院要防漏補缺針對立法品質的粗糙以減少心智會有更多的受害者"},{"start":386.517,"end":410.771,"text":"而女法官協會也要求對司法院喊話你們要補足配套所以呢下一頁你們修正了法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施原則有委員今天早上就是同一個委員黃國昌說你們在掏空立法院的修法意旨"},{"start":412.23,"end":433.857,"text":"他反對你們說了一大套其實就是他面子掛不住啊過去為了個案的修法是為了救柯文哲現在黃國昌只會更變本加厲因為以後呢可能坐在法庭裡頭受審的人就是他自己他更急切的想要透過輿論的公審他拒絕"},{"start":437.697,"end":451.886,"text":"你們司法院想方設法的亡羊補牢補救的措施我整理出您剛剛所說的非常清楚當時在朝野協商的時候在野黨的委員都同意是delay life"},{"start":452.808,"end":471.013,"text":"對不對是公播而不是直播這些在協商的現場都有記錄甚至在協商的過程在野的委員都要求去識別化所以說你們做出了配套完全沒有違反立法的意志"},{"start":472.099,"end":492.078,"text":"我終整了你們四個補救的辦法禁止特寫來保護案件相關人的權益對不對是不要特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官你們也做成了補正當事人有抗告權這是為了保障訴訟的人權我支持"},{"start":492.839,"end":517.143,"text":"你們的配套還有必須在判決之後使得公開影像就是為了避免訴訟中的直播導致輿論影響判決就是Delay Live所在你們的補救還有要指定平台跟網站而不是任意誰都可以去播送我非常支持你們播放"},{"start":518.741,"end":537.693,"text":"雖然你們今天受到了這些委員很大的責難但是我們是負責任的善後但我還是要提醒你們雖然是指定平台避免任意播送而且是事後播放但都還是難以去防範變造或者是剪輯"},{"start":539.234,"end":549.64,"text":"這就是當初我們反對的一個很大的理由這個還是沒有辦法克服嘛 對不對還是你們有什麼方法可以克服這個惡意變造的部分呢我請廳長來說明這個部分"},{"start":553.664,"end":572.883,"text":"跟委員報告其實在立法過程中本來法院組織法的90條之4是原本的法律是有規定就是說持有法庭錄音錄影內容的人是就他所取得的這個錄音錄影是不可以散布公開播送或為非正當目的之使用原有的法律就有"},{"start":573.283,"end":601.617,"text":"對 但是因為在這次的修法中在第90條的第8項就明文規定說只要是公開播送的錄音錄影就排除了這一條的使用所以嘛 這就是一個更可怕的地方嘛是 那因為這個涉及到的就是媒體的管制還有相關這個可能就是超過了所以這還是我們雖然想方設法拆彈拆地雷但是那個炸彈地雷還在那裡會去影響很多訴訟當事人的權益"},{"start":602.987,"end":614.673,"text":"下一頁所以我要給你們送暖我要給你們肯定立法粗糙補破網立法院叫貨司法院來善後何錯之有"},{"start":615.703,"end":641.552,"text":"反而呢立法院事後來究責司法院肇事者還來譴責善後者豈有此理我把這幾句話送給黃國昌委員下面一個主題我很快的帶過來下一頁下一頁法官不語喔非常遺憾喔有三位大法官用個人的聲明的方式而不是用憲法法庭正式的新聞稿"},{"start":643.224,"end":667.87,"text":"事前這三位大法官用個人聲明的方式你們知悉嗎有所掌握嗎這個沒有透過我們那個司法院對外發言的管道所以你們不知道嘛 你們不知悉那你們也無可奈何 因為也不知道也只能尊重下一頁法官不語跟法官要語因為時代的不同要求取平衡"},{"start":668.886,"end":696.342,"text":"限訴法35條已經給予如果你有不同意見的可以出去不同意見書對不對這是體制內的可以補充意見還有呢最近同樣也有兩個限制73號跟75號裁定不同意見書裡頭都有另外的幾位大法官透過不同意見書或協同意見書針對憲法法庭被癱瘓他們提出了不同的意見"},{"start":697.122,"end":724.254,"text":"他們認為大法官行使憲法解釋職權如果受到法律的封鎖或阻礙大法官是要自救的他們是循正常的憲法訴訟法35條所給予的不同意見書或協同意見書來闡述他的意見下一頁但是現在呢細數中案件向媒體發表個人聲明不只大法官連法官倫理規範都有禁制的規範嘛"},{"start":725.771,"end":750.693,"text":"所以說也曾經有法官因為個別的案件審理完之後對媒體一再的說被你們懲戒被你們罰了對不對有這個依據可以處理嗎是有這個案例吧那我問你我沒有說我就依法論法我尊重大法官但是司法院也有大法官的自律實施辦法不是嗎"},{"start":752.978,"end":761.723,"text":"有這個規定那如果說大法官違反了自律實施的部分規定是什麼這個部分"},{"start":764.628,"end":786.449,"text":"一個是可以送監察院一個是可以有譴責或是口頭或書面要求道歉我不介入你們的處理我只是說下一頁時代不同法官要與跟法官不與我們要去面對這件事情我基本上是同意法官不與的這個規範因為要捍衛司法的公正性"},{"start":787.19,"end":802.064,"text":"但是如果因為時代的變遷積極面讓法官可以透過對外更清楚的說明案件讓大家了解是為了捍衛這個司法審判的公信力但如果消極面有些要捍衛法官個人的表意自由"},{"start":803.145,"end":829.596,"text":"確實有法界在討論法官要語但我認為也應當事前或合議庭的同意或授權也應當把內容限縮在判決的範圍內不以外溢出這個框架也最好是當庭解說較為適當更要避免涉入政治的傾向價值的判斷個人的觀點我一向非常尊重大法官只是我認為當大法官被惡法癱瘓的時候"},{"start":831.377,"end":857.718,"text":"竟然還束手就擒乖乖就範那麼大法官就很難再被認為是憲法的守護者又非常的遺憾透過違反了可能違反了法官不予的規範禁字對外發表的聲明我認為雖然你們是司法行政但是我要提醒司法行政有你們的規範法官要自律大法官也有自律實施的原則跟辦法"},{"start":858.599,"end":882.514,"text":"你們應當要能夠去思考你們能夠做為什麼否則未來類似的事件個別的大法官或是法官有樣學樣不斷的對外發表個人的意見我認為這都對於憲法法庭的公正性是不宜的我把這樣子的觀點分享給你們我還是尊重你們的處理我也尊重憲法法庭好 謝謝謝謝委員 崔詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時）請王副秘書長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安，辛苦了。順著剛剛陳培瑜委員的質詢，本席今天的質詢有兩個部分，第一個部分就是本席支持司法院進行善後，也就是補破網，本席反對法庭直播倉促上路。有一位立委，他前陣子有幾句名言讓我們看到他的雙標。身為公眾人物，當大家質疑他是不是有一些登載不實，或者沒有對公眾詳細說明事件的時候，也就是質疑他是不是美國爸爸這件事情，他說了：我太太非常不高興，她要我不要回應這種事，這種肉搜未成年小孩的變態行為，我根本懶得理。","一個公眾人物有沒有向人民吐實？我想人民有知的權利。但他用這樣的說法要求別人不可以肉搜他的家庭，忘了自己是一個公眾人物，是一個立法委員。前幾天他又發生一件事，當記者要採訪他時，這位立委說：我很討厭有人拿著手機，一直對著我拍！他是立法委員，在立法院的會議室接受媒體採訪，面對他不想面對的問題，這時就反對媒體對他緊迫盯人，甚至說拿著手機對我拍不可以！","這是這位立委，他非常雙標啊！己所不欲，勿施於人，但他偏偏嚴以律人，寬以待己，「別人的囝死袂了」，這位立委就是黃國昌。他在立法院強推法庭直播，讓所有的受害者隱私透過直播公審被完全揭露。法官審問案情的過程可能會涉及犯罪細節，這些都會涉及受害人心中的創傷。所以站在保護訴訟當事人權益的立場，包括國民法官、承審法官們的權益，我們都認為不要在欠缺配套措施之下進行法庭直播，可是這位立委就是「別人的囝死袂了」。","別人的隱私透過直播全都露，自己家庭的事情、該對社會揭露的事情，他都選擇性不願意面對，還拒絕別人拿著手機對他拍！那他憑什麼要求審判過程中，所有訴訟相關人等都要被強迫拍攝直播，還可能流於公審，讓法院成了直播秀、實境秀，這不是雙標嗎？甚至是比雙標更雙標。所以法庭直播不應當急就章，法院組織法不應當被政治綁架，有30個團體發聲反對、反對、再反對，但是黃國昌委員，還有支持他的藍白在野立委們完全置之不理。","當初在討論法院組織法時，本席非常遺憾它還是逕付二讀，我們沒有機會好好討論條文，所以本席只能透過一次又一次的質詢點出問題。沒有配套的法庭直播，會讓這些倡議者所彰顯的司法透明這面大旗未得其利先受其害，這些都是本席當初反對，期期以為不可的理由。因為它有違個資的保障，不利於事實真相的調查，也有違無罪推定原則，恐怕會因為輿論公審影響法官心證、判決公正等等，但這些理由都像是狗吠火車啦！","這麼重要的制度變革竟然逕付二讀，而且很快就會實施，因為它還押了日期，3個月內要上路。本席要請問一下副秘書長，當初國民法官法修正之後，多久才上路實施？"],["王副秘書長梅英：兩年。"],["吳委員思瑤：兩年嘛！甚至還有部分是明年才要實施。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為一個司法制度的變革需要準備，國民法官法，如果本席沒有記錯，有兩年半的準備期；但是法庭直播3個月就要上路！好加在民進黨黨團緊急召開公聽會，收攏社會各界的反對意見，也在某種程度上，讓民眾黨委員吸納社會上對這件事的反彈意見，納入他們修法的修正動議，稍微拆了一些些炸彈，但是那個地雷和炸彈，10月16日還是要上路，才3個月的時間！","國民法官法準備了兩年多耶！法庭直播3個月就上路，這不是倉促，什麼是倉促呢？這不是急就章，什麼是急就章呢？所以對於這項三讀通過的法律，法官協會、女法官協會再次發聲明，他們要求、喊話司法院要針對立法品質的粗糙防漏補缺，以減少新制製造出更多受害者。女法官協會也對司法院喊話，要求你們補足配套措施，所以你們修正法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施原則。","有委員今天早上提問，就是同一個委員黃國昌，他說你們在掏空立法院的修法意旨，他反對你們的做法，還說了一大套，其實就是他的面子掛不住。過去為了個案修法，目的就是為了救柯文哲，現在黃國昌只會更變本加厲，因為以後坐在法庭裡頭受審的人可能就是他自己，所以他更急切的想要透過輿論公審，拒絕司法院想方設法的亡羊補牢所提出補救措施。本席整理出您剛剛說得非常清楚的內容，當時在朝野協商的時候，在野黨的委員都同意是delay live，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是公播而不是直播，這些在協商現場都有記錄，甚至在協商的過程中，在野委員都要求去識別化。所以你們做出的配套措施完全沒有違反立法意旨。本席綜整你們四個補救辦法，包括禁止特寫，保護案件相關人的權益。對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要特寫，而且不得拍攝國民法官。你們也做成了補正，讓當事人有抗告權，這是為了保障訴訟的人權，這點本席支持。你們的配套還包括必須判決之後始得公開影像，就是為了避免訴訟中的直播導致輿論影響判決，也就是delay live。你們的補救措施還包括指定平台和網站，不是誰都可以播送。本席非常支持你們的補破網，雖然你們今天受到委員很大的責難，但這是負責任的善後。","但本席還是要提醒，你們雖然是指定平台避免任意播送，而且是事後才能播放，但還是難以防範被變造或者剪輯，這也是當初我們反對的理由，因為這一點還是沒有辦法克服嘛！對不對？還是你們有什麼方法可以克服惡意變造的部分呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：請廳長說明這個部分。"],["吳廳長祚丞：其實在立法過程中，本來法院組織法第九十條之四是規定持有法庭錄音錄影內容的人，就他所取得的錄音錄影，不可以散布、公開播送或為非正當目的之使用。"],["吳委員思瑤：原有的法律就有規定。"],["吳廳長祚丞：對。但是因為在這次的修法，第九十條第八項明文規定，只要是公開播送的錄音錄影就排除這一條的適用。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這就是更可怕的地方嘛！"],["吳廳長祚丞：是。因為這涉及到媒體的管制，還有相關的規定，這部分可能超過司法院的……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們雖然想方設法拆彈、拆地雷，但是那個炸彈、地雷還是在那裡，會影響到很多訴訟當事人的權益。所以本席要給你們送暖，本席要給你們肯定，立法粗糙補破網，立法院肇禍，司法院善後，何錯之有？現在反而是立法院事後究責司法院，肇事者譴責善後者，豈有此理！本席把這幾句話送給黃國昌委員。","下面一個主題本席很快地帶過，就是關於法官不語的部分。非常遺憾，有三位大法官用個人聲明的方式，而不是由憲法法庭正式發新聞稿。這三位大法官用個人聲明的方式，你們事前知悉嗎？有所掌握嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分沒有透過司法院對外發言的管道，我們不知悉。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們不知道嘛！因為你們不知悉，所以你們也無可奈何，只能尊重。法官不語和法官要語，因為時代的不同應該取得平衡，憲訴法第三十五條已經明定，如果你有不同意見可以出具不同意見書，對不對？這是體制內的方式，可以提補充意見。","還有呢？最近同樣也有兩個例子，憲裁字第73號和第75號裁定意見書，有另外幾位大法官透過不同意見書或協同意見書，針對憲法法庭被癱瘓提出不同意見。他們認為大法官行使憲法解釋職權，如果受到法律的封鎖或阻礙，大法官是要自救的。所以他們循正常管道，依照憲法訴訟法第三十五條所給予的權利，以不同意見書或協同意見書闡述意見。","但是現在呢？繫屬中案件向媒體發表個人聲明，不只是大法官，連法官倫理規範都有禁制的規範嘛！也曾經有法官在個別案件審理完之後，對媒體一再地說明，所以被你們懲戒、被你們罰了，對不對？有這個依據可以處理嘛！的確是有這個案例！本席現在是依法論法，也尊重大法官，而且司法院也有大法官自律實施辦法，不是嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有這個規定。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果大法官違反自律實施的部分，有什麼規定？一個是可以送監察院，還有一個是譴責或是口頭、書面要求道歉。本席不介入你們如何處理，只是時代不同，我們要去面對法官要語和法官不語這件事情，基本上本席是同意法官不語這個規範，因為要捍衛司法的公正性。但是為了因應時代變遷，積極面是讓法官透過對外做更清楚的說明，讓大家了解案件，這也是為了捍衛司法審判的公信力。","但是也有消極面，因為要捍衛法官個人的表意自由，法界確實也在討論法官要語。但本席認為應當事前獲合議庭的同意或授權，把內容限縮在判決範圍內，不宜外溢出這個框架，最好是當庭解說較為適當，更要避免涉入政治傾向、價值判斷和個人觀點。本席一向非常尊重大法官，但本席認為，當大法官被惡法癱瘓的時候，竟然還束手就擒、乖乖就範，那麼大法官就很難再被認為是憲法的守護者。","同時也非常遺憾，有大法官違反法官不語的規範，逕自對外發表聲明。本席認為雖然你們是依據司法行政，但是本席要提醒，司法行政也有規範，法官要自律，大法官也有自律實施原則和辦法，你們應當要去思考能夠做什麼，否則未來類似的事件會不斷發生，個別大法官或是法官有樣學樣，不斷對外發表個人意見，本席認為這對憲法法庭的公正性是不宜的。今天和你們分享這樣的觀點，本席還是尊重你們的處理方式，也尊重憲法法庭，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。不過剛剛吳委員說的那個議題很重要，本席在想，司法院是不是應該提供一份研析報告？就是針對那三位大法官在媒體上的發言，剛剛吳思瑤委員也點到重點，有沒有違反大法官自律規範？這個部分司法院是不是應該提出一份報告給吳委員參考？"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，本席沒有要求提報告，本席也不會干涉他們如何處理，只是拋出這個議題而已，並沒有做這樣的要求。"],["主席：本席認為這個議題滿重要的。吳委員提出的這個議題，確實涉及法官在什麼樣的情境之下應該不語。現在有很多法官論壇，法官也會在網路上的論壇發言，這樣會不會有一系列的相關問題？本席覺得司法院可以就這個議題進一步研析。不過如果司法院重視這份報告的話，應該也會衝擊到大法官會議。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以本席要說明一下，本席並沒有要求他們出具任何報告，立法院不要再凌駕司法院了。本席個人的質詢只是提出一些觀點分享，主席不宜因為本席的質詢，越俎代庖要求他們，這點本席要補正一下。"],["主席：因為本席非常……"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，但是不要越俎代庖，那樣做逸出了本席的質詢範圍，謝謝。"],["主席：因為聽到吳委員剛剛的質詢，本席也認為吳委員點出關鍵的議題。"],["吳委員思瑤：本席非常尊重司法院，立法院不要再凌駕司法院了，謝謝。"],["主席：所以這個部分可以請司法院進一步提出研析報告，可以在一個月之內提出嗎？應該不需要太久的時間吧？本席做為召委，應該有這樣的……"],["吳委員思瑤：但這不是本席的要求。召委，如果需要的話，您可以提案，或是用您個人質詢的時間要求，好嗎？"],["主席：做為召委，本席應該有這樣的權力，而且這也是在積極處理委員提出來的問題。麻煩司法院在一個月之內提出一份相關報告。針對剛剛說的，是不是違反大法官不語，以及三位大法官最近在媒體上的一些公開言論，有沒有違反大法官自律規範，針對這個議題提出一份法律研析報告，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：本席建議翁委員可以直接去看大法官的自律規範，不用再叫他們寫報告給你啦！真的不需要啦！好嗎？真的！立法院要尊重司法院，好嗎？五院平等相為。"],["主席：這是一個重要的議題。","接下來休息5分鐘，因為剛才已經宣告程序，謝謝。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席：好，那我們現在繼續進行會議。","接下來，我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},{"id":"164564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da6994c2d5427d0aaa27ea0d01a9ed952c83c966d97180d5d25bdf70add8e932595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:01:02 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我們先請林佳龍部長請部長"},{"start":9.702,"end":30.894,"text":"部長好 我想我們先從輕鬆一點的內容開始討論那就是有媒體報導您就是要寫新書了嘛也先恭喜外交部要寫新書啊 不是嗎但是就有人在講說這個外交部有些人說要寫書啊然後內部公務員有一些意見啊等等的"},{"start":31.394,"end":47.284,"text":"那呢你們也已經回應了非常的快速就講說呢是要做一些政策討論包含是總和外交等等的一些這個議題要做的這個書籍嘛可不可以那個部長先幫我們介紹一下這個書的這個我想先問一下書名叫什麼"},{"start":49.214,"end":74.825,"text":"是這樣就像我跟委員提到的業務報告這是我針對總和外交怎麼去推動嘛我先好奇就是說它書名叫做什麼因為它不是什麼一本書啦它就是我們對政策的方向然後大家凝聚共識那也有個名字吧就是會是有一個報告一個報告那它不是會做成一個而且我跟委員報告"},{"start":77.677,"end":83.582,"text":"我的想法啦那個沒有什麼去動用什麼這個本來就是我們業務單位根據我的施政理念尤其是業務報告要落實到各單位去推動要配套嘛如果這個這個方面我想對於我們有共同的"},{"start":96.351,"end":116.623,"text":"這個外交的目標跟我們的路徑圖我知道 我覺得很好啦 我沒有要批評你的意思我只是很好奇說這個書的這個好 你叫政策白皮書也好 就是怎麼樣也好他的這個名稱叫什麼我跟委員報告 比如我之前啦 我自己啦這是跟這個沒有關係像我有這個出版一本叫經濟日不落國對就是這個"},{"start":119.545,"end":141.349,"text":"有您在那個交通部長的任內交通部台灣這個新彥行國際聯合艦隊就是現在在推動的我們的經濟外交的來源嘛那我知道啦這個像交通部的時候您也有一本這樣子的這個冊子嘛那我覺得都沒有關係因為呢有政策讓更多人知道是好事我只是想要好奇問一下說那你看"},{"start":141.929,"end":154.936,"text":"之前在交通部的時候您的這個我們就講好政策書好了叫做交通彩繪家林佳龍與人本交通的創新治理那呢我想要問一下現在我們在規劃的這個手冊那標題叫什麼"},{"start":159.478,"end":176.824,"text":"這是不一樣的不過這個我跟委員講你講的這個是我自己我都自己出錢在就是說形成我自己的一些政策論述因為要跟社會溝通這是民主的當然我沒有反對我在當交通部長你也知道包括Uber問題的解決包括現在的T-pass"},{"start":177.924,"end":185.686,"text":"我知道了 包括無人機智慧電動車還有這些所有的很多是來自於我們帶一個政策我沒有反對我只是問一下你們想好這個名稱了沒有啊就標題我想問一下這個冊子的標題是什麼問題很簡單還沒有還沒想好而且這個跟委員講的這並不是說去出版一本書那你要什麼時候出版也不是用外交部的預算"},{"start":198.989,"end":209.791,"text":"所以這個兄弟我讀我自己長年來推動總和外交的一些施政理念跟同仁來共同形成一個配套的政策這個施政理念的這個手冊好了我這樣講手冊是由您自己個人出資啊一向如此我從來我都不用公家的預算那那撰寫這個書籍的話有請外交部的同仁協助嗎沒有就是"},{"start":226.426,"end":254.976,"text":"資料的 根據我要的資料的整理他們必須把在做的去做配套比如說我們的歐洲政策我跟委員報告像我們最近有沒有我們有一個從科技到文化嘛我們最近在推動歐洲為什麼會有突破那以前就是我們30個外館但是就各自為政你不要跟我說這麼多到時候您出版了我會我會這個閱讀這個大作我就知道了好不好因為我們大家在期待我會跟您分享如果有這個東西期待這個冊子對啊期待這個冊子出現要不然我先送幾本我以前出版的給"},{"start":255.556,"end":269.194,"text":"我看過我看過我一向是您的書籍的粉絲我都看過所以我才好奇說這個標題標題還沒有定那內容大概有那預計什麼時候要出版呢"},{"start":270.584,"end":291.02,"text":"有預計的時辰嗎我們就是一個要形成政策的一個共識跟論述的一個工作啦其實大家都要一起做這個工作才有共同的我們講的戰略風向跟路徑谷你預計有什麼時候要把這個東西做出來我這樣講你可不可以不要能夠接受隨時都可以做出來因為都在我的我們在進行中的政策啊"},{"start":291.36,"end":311.513,"text":"OK好可是你總會有個時程吧那我如果問說那你明天就要做出來那你今天都還沒有想好標題怎麼可能呢那比較隨時啊我再跟委員請教一下如果應該用什麼方式會比較適合我都是開放式的那太好了知道委員的支持啊更有這個動力對對我好奇名稱而已好那我們請這個我們經貿談判辦公室上來好不好好"},{"start":321.764,"end":345.843,"text":"部長您也留步我不確定會不會有您的這個沒關係您留步好這個我今天要問的是關於我們副總統蕭美琴日前接受加拿大的廣播公司專訪的時候提到川普政府在美國的投資不只有台積電還包含整個台積電的生態系請問這個部分我們在行政院的談判辦公室清不清楚"},{"start":347.612,"end":362.723,"text":"我們都有看到相關的報導都有都有follow我不要問的是報導我是在說過程當中你們清不清楚就是我們在談判的時候呢有談到包含是台積電的生態系都納入在台美的這個關稅談判當中"},{"start":365.771,"end":384.406,"text":"是知道清楚你的事是什麼意思是向委員報告就是說有關於這件事情的說明就是說這個是因為台灣的科學園區的模式在全球獨有加上產業園區工業區等所以其他國家難以複製這樣的園區規劃所以我國是願意與美國透過政府與政府的合作來創造有利產業聚落形成的環境這樣可以降低我國企業單打獨鬥的高成本跟風險"},{"start":395.214,"end":398.536,"text":"因此我們提議導入過去產業記錄以及科學園區的經驗那我們會以國家跟產業利益來跟美國談判所以這個具體的做法是什麼因為你講到園區嘛具體的做法是什麼是說呢在台灣的這些園區呢由美國這裡來投資還是說呢我們要去美國投資園區"},{"start":417.408,"end":439.905,"text":"跟委員報告這個所謂的台灣模式是在跟由台灣佈局全球總體策略下它包括幾個重點第一個就是它是由企業來自主規劃到美國來進行產業投資第二個是政府來整合所以是台灣到美國去投資但是由政府來整合政府來整合然後並且增加對業者的金融支持那第三點是要透過台美政府"},{"start":440.525,"end":445.509,"text":"與政府就是居途居的合作來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境來協助相關產業在美國進行有利的國際布局那請問一下部長在這個部分外交部有沒有角色呢有啊因為我們很多外管什麼樣具體的其實我們在推動所謂的龍幫計畫就有一個智慧科技園區海外示範計畫"},{"start":462.022,"end":474.371,"text":"那所以我們榮邦計畫這一次我也知道說我們在這個預算編列的部分增加了68億嘛對不對那在這68億的預算當中是不是您剛講的協助剛才我們經貿辦講的這個所謂的園區計畫那也是在這個68億其中呢相關的資源"},{"start":487.341,"end":509.033,"text":"比如說我們這個台灣Tower就是中油的地那被收回也可惜我們把它變成一個其實就是一個單一服務窗口跨這個就是台美之間的這個服務可以整合在這裡那我們譬如說巴拉圭我們以前我們就是把一個廢棄的工業區開發成台巴智慧科學園區"},{"start":510.033,"end":537.678,"text":"對 我問的是台美的部分啦不是說我們今天的主題是台美啦我本來是針對邦交國可是現在也推動譬如說台美以外像菲律賓啊像中東歐的這個國家我想要問的是我們這個榮邦計畫裡面的68億當中有哪一些部分有多少的經費是在剛才經貿辦講到的跟外交部所共同合作的有關台美談判這些科學園區相關的協助金"},{"start":537.878,"end":549.484,"text":"目前並沒有特別分對美國因為我們在啟動這個榮邦計畫是針對我們邦交國還有理念相近國家但是因為現在台美的經貿的談判有出現科學園區我跟委員報告比如說像最近電電工會有公布有沒有要在墨西哥設這個TIMA科技園區就是我們跟他們討論因為我們要公私協力有些國家是由企業來主導"},{"start":565.973,"end":588.942,"text":"然後他們本來就要投資我們之後審查預算的時候會一個一個問您喔因為我要問今天就是在談台美關稅的議題嘛那您剛上來的時候我第一個問題問您的就是說呢那在這個我剛講的這個半導體的部分呢這個我們外交部有沒有角色您告訴我說有然後呢我就問說那有沒有一些具體的這個預算等等的就是具體的協助方向嘛"},{"start":589.542,"end":613.964,"text":"那你具體有協助方向的話他當然也會有預算所以我才問說我們具體對於剛才所說的這個所謂的半導體投資的部分外交部具體的協助方向跟方式是什麼那運用到哪一些資源是我剛講榮邦計畫我們要設定對象邦交國跟理念相近國家兩大類理念相近國家本來是針對中東歐跟菲律賓等"},{"start":614.364,"end":629.01,"text":"但現在包括美日歐其實很多的國家都適合我們去跟他一起合作這裡面涉及到就是科技資金跟人才三大塊那這個政策對美方面我們並沒有外交部另外特別編列預算因為當時在形成榮邦計畫的時候你說放在裡面了嘛"},{"start":632.611,"end":654.248,"text":"但是因為政策的主張的內容是相近就是有關於智慧科技園區海外示範計畫那這裡面會有一個交集所以我想要請問一下剛才你講的這個美國的部分因為你講說嘛榮邦計畫除了這些原本我們一些邦交國理念相近的之外美日的部分也會把它納進來嘛因為也跟我們理念每日歐都有嘛那我特別詢問"},{"start":655.389,"end":678.04,"text":"我特別詢問的就是說在這個榮邦計畫的這個整體的預算規劃當中對於美國談判就是對於美國投資或是美國相關協助的部分包含是園區的部分它佔了多少的比例呢這是分開的但是因為現在因為台美的談判裡面有出現了所謂的台灣模式會有科學園區所以我們的榮邦計畫"},{"start":679.181,"end":691.145,"text":"同樣這個模式也可以蓋美國啊來這個怎麼樣去結合成一個台灣模式所以並不是說我們一開始針對美國的我知道我知道這是分開的我知道但我要問說因為它包含在裡面嘛所以它包含在裡面的它可以包含它"},{"start":698.087,"end":707.531,"text":"因為不是說它可以包含你預算都編了那你一定已經有一個想法跟規劃了那我問的是說對於美國的對於你剛剛講的園區的這一部分來說的話是佔這個榮邦計畫裡面的多少經費嗎"},{"start":714.674,"end":727.925,"text":"這麼簡單的問題沒有在這方面另外別列預算只有這個政策就是行政院核定的龍邦計畫我們的對象國家那不是有包含美國嗎那因為我們本身也在推動智慧科技園區海外示範計畫同樣的不限對象的話你念相近國家裡面也可以適用不是也可以你一定是那也可以的意思是也可能沒有行政院包括經貿談判辦公室"},{"start":741.096,"end":746.24,"text":"這個我們外交部會是參與但是對美的這個關稅啦或者是232條款或是投資或供應鏈的合作這個還是整個行政院跨部會的事情但是如果他們需要動用資金的話在外交部來講應該不會來自於我們這邊的資金啦那你剛不講說科學園區等等的投資的部分我跟委員再講一點時間也就是說我們要推動"},{"start":765.794,"end":777.686,"text":"智慧科技研究院海外計畫我們已經跟以大帶小公司協力軟硬兼施內外循環有四個政策設計硬的部分是誰要硬我再跟委員詳細報告我們最近怎麼樣在一些友邦推動軟硬兼施硬的部分軟體跟硬體啦"},{"start":784.292,"end":789.234,"text":"我們不要只是賣硬體的製造我們要軟體的服務 系統整合老半天告訴我說是軟體跟硬體我實在是覺得因為這樣子口訣我多問了兩句之後就變成就從那個軟硬間是突然變軟體跟硬體那不講這麼多總之我想是這樣子的因為先前剛剛講的這個生態系赴美的事情那國發會說事前都不知情我最後詢問一下外交部事前是知情的嗎"},{"start":813.683,"end":840.624,"text":"我是想說應該是我們供應鏈的擴展沒有啦 我就很我問的就是蕭美琴說的可以有台美聯合艦隊台日聯合艦隊 台歐聯合艦隊的這件事情而已你不要跟我講別的我就是專門問你這個部分就是蕭美琴副總統說台灣投資美國包含整個晶片生態系因為我要告訴你喔國發會他們說事前不知道喔那您事前是知道的嗎"},{"start":841.67,"end":861.799,"text":"用什麼名詞形容是另外一回事就是生態系啊整個台美關係我是很清楚的生態系赴美台積電生態系赴美這件事情嗎我的理解是半導體供應鏈的拓展這不是移植這個是我們成功的模式因為我時間不夠了還有其他人要質詢"},{"start":862.679,"end":884.872,"text":"所以我簡單講我覺得你們就是事前不知情啊因為你這個供應鏈整體的這個說法那大家都知道啊那如果說大家都知道的東西蕭美琴副總統要提出來那又怎麼會變成是一個新聞國發會會怎麼說事前不知情呢所以不知情以後就告訴我說不知情就好了就不用另外再講說哎呀還有什麼其他的東西我的概念跟理解那時間有限謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我們先請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們先從輕鬆一點的內容開始討論，先恭喜，有媒體報導您寫新書了……"],["林部長佳龍：我……"],["徐委員巧芯：外交部要寫新書，不是嗎？但是有人在講，外交部有些人說要寫書，然後內部公務員有一些意見等等的，你們也已經回應了，非常的快速，是要做一些政策討論，包含總合外交等等一些議題的書籍。部長，可不可以先幫我們介紹一下書……我想先問一下書名叫什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：是這樣，就像我跟委員提到的業務報告，這是我針對總合外交怎麼去推動……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我知道。不是，我先好奇問，書名叫做什麼？你們定了沒？"],["林部長佳龍：因為它不是一本書啦，其實是我們對政策的方向，然後大家凝聚共識……"],["徐委員巧芯：那也有個名字吧？"],["林部長佳龍：什麼？"],["徐委員巧芯：也有個名字吧？"],["林部長佳龍：就是會有一個報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：一個報告？不是會做成一個……"],["林部長佳龍：而且我跟委員報告我的想法……"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對、對，好。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有去動用什麼，這個本來就是我們業務單位根據我的施政理念，尤其是業務報告要落實到各單位去推動，因為要有配套嘛，這個方面我想對於我們有共同外交的目標，我們的路徑圖很重要。"],["徐委員巧芯：有，我知道，我覺得很好啦，我沒有要批評你的意思，我只是很好奇這個書，你叫政策白皮書也好或什麼樣也好，它的名稱叫什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，比如之前……跟這個沒有關係，我自己有出版一本叫「經濟日不落國」，就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：有，您在交通部長的任內，交通部也有編著這個，我知道。"],["林部長佳龍：台灣新雁行國際聯合艦隊，就是現在我們在推動的經濟外交的來源嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道啦，您在交通部的時候也有一本這樣的冊子嘛！我覺得都沒有關係，因為有政策讓更多人知道是好事，我只是好奇問一下，您之前在交通部時候的這本，我們就講政策書好了，叫做「交通彩繪家：林佳龍與人本交通的創新治理」，我想問，現在我們在規劃的這一個手冊的標題叫什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：這是不一樣的，不過我跟委員講，您講的這個是我自己出錢在……形成我自己的一些政策論述。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["林部長佳龍：因為也要跟社會溝通，這是民主的時代嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：當然、當然，我沒有反對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：所以我在當交通部長，你也知道包括Uber問題的解決，包括現在的TPASS……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道啦！"],["林部長佳龍：包括無人機、智慧電動車，所有的都是來自於我們的政策平台。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我沒有反對，我只是問一下你們想好這個名稱了沒？就標題，我想問一下這個冊子的標題是什麼？我的問題很簡單。"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：還沒想好喔？"],["林部長佳龍：而且跟委員講，這並不是去出版一本書……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你要什麼時候出版？"],["林部長佳龍：也不是用外交部的預算……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這一次……"],["林部長佳龍：是我自己長年來推動總合外交的一些施政理念，跟同仁共同形成的一個配套政策。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，我這樣講好了，所以這一次施政理念的手冊，是由您自己個人出資啊？"],["林部長佳龍：一向如此。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，個人出資。"],["林部長佳龍：我從來都不用公家的預算，因為很麻煩。"],["徐委員巧芯：那撰寫這個書籍有請外交部的同仁協助嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，就是資料的整理，根據我要的，他們必須把在做的事再去做配套……"],["徐委員巧芯：資料的整理，OK，好。"],["林部長佳龍：譬如說我們的歐洲政策。我跟委員報告，像我們最近有一個「從科技島到文化台灣」，我們在推動歐洲，至於為什麼會有突破？以前我們30個外館是各自為政，現在整合起來……"],["徐委員巧芯：我懂，您不用跟我說這麼多，到時候您出版了我會閱讀大作，我就知道了，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我會跟您分享。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們大家來期待，我們期待。"],["林部長佳龍：如果有出版的話。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們期待這個冊子出現嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：要不然我先送幾本我以前出版的給委員參考一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：不用，我看過、我看過，我一向是您書籍的粉絲，我都看過。"],["林部長佳龍：不敢當。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我才好奇這個標題，但是標題還沒有定，至於內容大概有，好，那預計什麼時候要出版呢？有預計的時程嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：你講出版……"],["徐委員巧芯：好啦，那什麼時候發行呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是要形成政策的共識跟論述的一個工作啦！其實大家都要一起做這個工作，我們講這樣才有共同的戰略圖像跟路徑圖。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，你預計什麼時候要把這個東西做出來？我這樣講你是不是比較能接受？何時做出來？"],["林部長佳龍：隨時都可以做出來，因為都是我們在進行中的政策啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，可是你總會有個時程吧？如果你明天就要做出來，但你今天都還沒有想好標題，怎麼可能呢？那不叫隨時啊，隨時就是我現在問你，你就會跟我說答案。"],["林部長佳龍：我再跟委員請教一下，應該用什麼方式會比較適合？"],["徐委員巧芯：我都是開放式的，我只是好奇。"],["林部長佳龍：那太好了，得到委員的支持，讓我更有動力。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我好奇名稱而已。我們請經貿談判辦公室上來，好不好？部長您也留步，我不確定會不會有您的部分。","我今天要問的是，關於我們副總統蕭美琴，日前接受加拿大的廣播公司專訪的時候提到川普政府時說：我們在美國的投資不只有台積電，還包含整個台積電的生態系。請問這個部分，行政院談判辦公室清不清楚？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：我們都有看到相關的報導，都有follow。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我要問的不是報導，我是說過程當中你們清不清楚？我們在談判的時候有談到，包含台積電的生態系都納入在台美的關稅談判當中？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：是？知道？清楚？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：你的「是」是什麼意思？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：向委員報告，有關於這件事情的說明，這個是因為台灣科學園區的模式全球獨有，加上產業園區、工業區等，所以其他國家難以複製這樣的園區規劃，所以我國是願意與美國透過政府與政府的合作來創造有利產業聚落形成的環境，這樣可以降低我國企業單打獨鬥的高成本跟風險。因此我們提議導入過去產業聚落，以及科學園區的經驗，我們會以國家跟產業利益來跟美國談判，依照根留台灣的原則全球布局……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以具體的做法是什麼？因為你講到園區嘛，具體的做法是什麼？是說在台灣的這些園區由美國這裡來投資？還是說我們要去美國投資園區？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：所謂的台灣模式是在根留台灣、布局全球的總體策略下，它包括幾個重點：第一個，它是由企業來自主規劃到美國進行產業投資；第二個，是政府來整合……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是台灣到美國去投資，但是由政府來整合？"],["徐執行秘書崇欽：政府來整合，並且增加對業者的金融支持。第三點，是要透過台美的政府與政府（G2G）的合作，來為我國企業打造有利的產業環境，來協助關產業在美國進行有利的國際布局。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，知道了。部長，請問一下，外交部在這個部分有沒有角色呢？"],["林部長佳龍：有啊，因為我們有很多外館啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼樣的角色？具體的講。"],["林部長佳龍：其實我們在推動所謂的榮邦計畫，其中就有一個智慧科技園區海外示範計畫。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以這一次榮邦計畫，我也知道我們在預算編列的部分增加了68億嘛，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：您剛剛講的，在這68億的預算當中，是不是包含剛才經貿辦講的所謂協助園區的計畫？而相關的支援也是在這個68億中嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：比如說，我們Taiwan Tower就是中油的地，被收回也可惜，我們把它變成一個單一服務窗口，台美之間的服務可以整合在這裡。例如說巴拉圭，以前我們就是把一個廢棄的工業區開發成「台巴智慧科技園區」……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是台美的部分啦，我們今天的主題是台美嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們本來是針對邦交國，可是現在也推動台美以外，像菲律賓……"],["徐委員巧芯：你這個榮邦計畫的推動不只是……"],["林部長佳龍：中東歐的國家都是……"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對，我知道，我想要問的是我們榮邦計畫的68億當中，有哪一些部分，有多少經費是在剛才經貿辦講到的，跟外交部所共同合作的，有關台美談判這些科學園區相關的協助經費？"],["林部長佳龍：目前並沒有特別針對美國，因為我們在啟動榮邦計畫是針對我們的邦交國及理念相近國家。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，對邦交國還有別的預算啊！"],["林部長佳龍：但是因為現在台美的經貿談判……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛講的那個園區……"],["林部長佳龍：科學園區……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，你剛剛講那個園區……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，比如像最近電電公會有公布要在墨西哥設「TEEMA科技園區」，我們跟他們討論，因為我們要公私協力……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我問的是台美。"],["林部長佳龍：由企業來主導，然後他們本來就要投資……"],["徐委員巧芯：都很好，那個我們之後審查預算的時候會一個一個問您，我今天就是在談台美關稅的議題，您剛上來的時候，我第一個問題就是我剛剛講的半導體，我問的是我們外交部有沒有角色？您告訴我是有，然後我就問那有沒有一些具體的預算等等？也就是具體的協助方向，如果你有具體協助方向的話，當然也會有預算，所以我才問你們具體對於剛才所說的半導體投資，外交部具體的協助方向跟方式是什麼？運用到哪一些資源？"],["林部長佳龍：我剛剛講到榮邦計畫要設定對象，邦交國跟理念相近國家兩大類，理念相近國家本來是針對中東歐跟菲利賓等，但現在包括美日歐，其實很多的國家都適合我們去跟他們一起合作，這裡面涉及到科技、資金跟人才三大塊，這個政策在對美方面，外交部並沒有另外特別編列預算，因為當時在形成榮邦計畫的時候跟這個是分開的。"],["徐委員巧芯：你就放在裡面了嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：但因為政策主張的內容是相近，就是有關於智慧科技園區、海外示範計劃，這裡面會有交集……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我知道了。所以我想要請問一下，剛才你講到美國的部分，因為你講榮邦計畫除了原本的邦交國及理念相近國家之外，美日的部分也會把它納進來嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：美日歐，理念相近，全球布局……"],["徐委員巧芯：美日歐都有嘛，我特別詢問的就是在榮邦計畫的整體預算規劃當中，對於美國談判，即對於美國投資或是美國相關協助的部分，包含園區，它占了多少的比例呢？"],["林部長佳龍：這是分開的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那應該是多少呢？"],["林部長佳龍：現在因為台美談判裡面有出現了所謂的臺灣模式，會有科學園區，所以我們的榮邦計畫同樣這個模式，也可以看美國怎麼樣去結合成一個臺灣模式，所以並不是說我們一開始針對美國的這部分的預算，這是分開的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我知道，但因為它包含在裡面，所以……"],["林部長佳龍：它可以包含它……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是它可以包含，因為預算都編了，那你一定已經有一個想法跟規劃了，那我問的是對於美國的，對於你剛剛講園區的這一部分來說，是占榮邦計畫裡面的多少經費？這麼簡單的問題！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有在這方面另外編列預算，只是說這個政策就是行政院核定的榮邦計畫，我們的對象國家……"],["徐委員巧芯：那不是有包含美國嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們本身也在推動智慧科技園區海外示範計畫……"],["徐委員巧芯：也可以包含是不一定包含還是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：同樣的，不限對象的話，理念相近國家裡面也可以適用。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是也可以，也可以的意思是也可能沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：這個屬於行政院經貿談判辦公室，我們外交部會參與，但是對美的關稅或者是232條款，或是投資，或供應鏈的合作，這還是整個行政院跨部會的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是如果他們需要動用資金的話，在外交部來講就是你剛才講的……"],["林部長佳龍：應該不會來自於我們這邊的資金啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛不是講科學園區等等投資的部分也可以……"],["林部長佳龍：委員給我一點時間，我們要推動智慧科技園區海外計畫，我們是已經發揮「以大帶小、軟硬兼施、公私協力、內外循環」，有有四個政策……"],["徐委員巧芯：你確定「軟硬兼施」喔？"],["林部長佳龍：有、有、有。"],["徐委員巧芯：硬的部分是怎樣？"],["林部長佳龍：我再跟委員詳細報告，我們最近怎麼樣在一些友邦推動。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個「軟硬兼施」的硬的部分呢？"],["林部長佳龍：是軟體跟硬體啦，我們不要只是賣硬體的製造，我們也要軟體的服務。"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛才講「軟硬兼施」，結果講了老半天告訴我是軟體跟硬體，我實在是覺得……"],["林部長佳龍：因為這樣子的口訣，16個字比較好記。"],["徐委員巧芯：我多問了兩句之後，就從「軟硬兼施」突然變軟體跟硬體。","好，不講這麼多，總之我想是這樣子的。因為先前講生態系赴美的事情，國發會說事前都不知情，我最後詢問一下，外交部事前是知情的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我想應該是我們供應鏈的拓展，然後深耕台灣、布局全球，我們這個成功的模式，可以有台美聯合艦隊、台日聯合艦隊、台歐聯合艦隊……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啦，我問的就是蕭美琴說的，投資美國包括整個晶片生態系的這一件事情而已，你不要跟我講別的，我就是專門問你這一個部分。蕭美琴副總統說臺灣投資美國包含整個晶片生態系，因為我要告訴你，國發會他們說事前不知道喔，那您事前是知道的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：用什麼名詞形容是另外一回事……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是生態系啊！"],["林部長佳龍：整個台美關係，我是很清楚的。"],["徐委員巧芯：台積電生態系赴美這件事情嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我的理解是半導體供應鏈的拓展，這不是移植，這是我們成功的模式……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為我時間不夠了，還有其他人要質詢。所以我簡單講，我覺得你們就是事前不知情，你這個供應鏈整體的這個說法，大家都知道啊，如果說大家都知道的東西，蕭美琴副總統提出來，那又怎麼會變成是一個新聞？國發會又怎麼會說事前不知情呢？所以不知情你就告訴我不知情就好了，就不用另外再講還有什麼其他的東西，你的概念跟理解是如何。時間有限，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","賴惠員","林德福","黃國昌","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「近期台美關係及關稅談判進展」，併請行政院經貿談判辦公室、經\n濟部、農業部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00006"}}},{"id":"164563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da37e40a56efd2ae8334f1f132b5784e0483c966d97180d5d25bdf70add8e932595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:01:29 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勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向其實現在我們是確實是希望包括像停權包括終止契約等等的其實現在在整個平台的運作裡面最被最被"},{"start":191.929,"end":214.235,"text":"最被詬病的事情當然就是對於外送員的申訴的管道不明確啦或者是不夠有效所以這部分其實我們在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定是好謝謝部長因為我想你們一直很上來之後真的很注重勞動權益在外送員這一塊我相信你也跟工會他們的有一些接觸也了解到他們的困難那部長我會這樣問像這個這次"},{"start":217.637,"end":231.572,"text":"這幾天風雨不小雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的一個標準可是像文化大學好了這樣的山區現場的狀況其實事實上就已經非常危險了可是沒有宣布停班外送員就還是得出勤"},{"start":232.213,"end":261.506,"text":"如果被派單到山上的話像這樣的一個核心問題就是說外送員接單根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層所以最後只能看到大概的範圍那就會像開盲盒一樣結果接單後才發現說那風雨很大山區我怎麼去所以最後就被迫棄單所以想問平台在派單前到底有沒有義務提供更完整地址跟樓層資訊讓外送員能夠做出選擇還是這會被認定為是顧客的隱私部長你怎麼看"},{"start":263.106,"end":283.333,"text":"跟委員報告我們在送給交通部的指引裡面其實就考慮這個情形有時候衛生平台他提供要給衛生員單的時候他要考慮什麼他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況是可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊可是如果要到山上去啊那最後棄單不是到時候又是不可能會被平台懲罰"},{"start":283.973,"end":299.154,"text":"那另外還有時間跟地點那我們這裡有提到如果不是規則外送員自單子沒辦法送到譬如說他真的拿了他送不到因為天候的狀況這個責任不能應該由外送員來做這樣那個賠償在我們的資金裡面也有定"},{"start":299.534,"end":319.742,"text":"好那我認為啦就顧客的權益平台的責任還有外送員的選擇自由可能三方的這個都應該要去兼顧未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把他納入去做考量部長氣單當然也可能延伸到客訴的一個問題所以我要問一個比較實際的案例當外送員遭到"},{"start":320.543,"end":336.304,"text":"顧客投訴時如果內容根本不合理例如明明已經送達而且交貨給本人卻被登記為非本人取貨外送員要跟平台說明的時候他面對的事實上是系統留言就是一個台積計還要勾選表單來做回覆他不能去"},{"start":336.764,"end":365.206,"text":"真實接去跟碰到真人然後去解釋他們的原因所以就是很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會被怎麼被處理甚至直接被列為負評也不知道原因是什麼所在更糟的是有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴所以部長對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的一個申訴機制事實上是外送員跟我們反映的所以政府你認為合理嗎"},{"start":366.516,"end":383.156,"text":"跟跟文說明基本上的確這也是很多外生員外送人反映的狀況這是為什麼我們認為應該建立有效的申訴機制這有效申請甚至我們都認為平台是應該是要有專人來去處理這部分所以我們在我們的指引裡面其實有定定好"},{"start":383.636,"end":406.19,"text":"就是平台其實應該要提供專人來去處於外送員跟不管是跟合作的商家或者是跟消費者之間可能會有的這些爭議然後或者是怎麼樣去做這些認定而不是因為的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去只是一個制式的所以部長可不可以強化平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道甚至未來"},{"start":406.81,"end":426.572,"text":"的申訴機制可能真的要請這邊再多費力因為我想你也非常的用心一直在對外送員這一塊是非常關心的再來就是外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險的一個事故當中"},{"start":426.952,"end":450.646,"text":"所以過去公路局的統計資料也顯示外送員常見的一個交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升這當然不能片面去責怪外送員的問題因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好所以現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡我認為平台有責任來肩負起我們的強化勞動安全的相關措施勞政也有過去有這樣子的一個調查"},{"start":451.927,"end":466.375,"text":"職業安全衛生設施對照來看的話包括車輛安全的檢核教育訓練預防措施等都存在相當高的比例沒有去做所以這邊我們大家就也收到外送員的一些抱怨就來問兩"},{"start":468.277,"end":482.612,"text":"就是部長跟次長請看這張圖這是外送員在接單的一個實際畫面根據統計以台南市來看2024年外送員發生的事故大概736件其中644件是受傷的大概是7.8%是因為"},{"start":485.956,"end":511.047,"text":"分心駕駛我想請問兩位也就是外送人告訴我們說他們接單時間只有3到5秒而且是在一邊騎車一邊看手機一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作有時候還要去縮放地圖去找地點所以部長你應該也是機車主我不知道你應該過去那如果你在騎車的時候同時做一些事情你覺得安心嗎安全嗎"},{"start":515.539,"end":531.569,"text":"確實我是騎車的當然騎車是不應該分心的是一樣的就是次長你覺得從交通安全的角度來看是合理的嗎3到5秒就要接單次長"},{"start":535.732,"end":561.814,"text":"對 這個當然所有的這個還是要以安全騎乘機車的時候還是要以安全對 所以我覺得這個威脅著他們尤其是像大概也知道那個外送員的那個狀態就是一個很險惡那最後從業人員的一個增加我前面也提到這些問題都會顯著增加所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障特別是社會保險機制的投入"},{"start":562.515,"end":583.703,"text":"老政過去的調查可以發現不管是全職或者是兼職工作者外送員投保的狀況都不是特別的高而且等同直接承受各種風險的時候我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方而且外送的那個兼職的比例高達75%是不是要怎麼去保障他的權益"},{"start":584.463,"end":600.897,"text":"最後就幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成第一個是保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益還有強化安全措施跟教育訓練尤其是交通安全教育我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊事實上特別的去琢磨"},{"start":601.718,"end":628.774,"text":"那也要反請我們的召委就是我覺得審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會來廣納各方的意見因為我剛剛提的問題你看在山區沒有拍單如果講不清楚的話事實上反而對外送員所以我要講的就是有時候快不是好所以產工業也好 職工業也好對於我們民進黨版本提出來他認為是最完整最好的所以我認為這一塊我希望我們在這個會議討論當中"},{"start":631.155,"end":633.86,"text":"可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時1分）主席，麻煩勞動部洪部長跟交通部陳次長。"],["主席：請洪部長跟次長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：兩位好。今天排審外送專法的詢答，我有幾個問題要來提醒跟討論。","針對外送平台的爭議，我上個會期就曾經跟外送工會、總工會以及各縣市工會一起召開記者會，譴責平台業者片面宣布調整計酬的規範，漠視外送員的勞動權益。當時我就立即要求勞動部跟交通部要盡速完成包含運價規則和勞動契約等相關的法制作業，就是希望主管機關能夠有效的管理外送平台業者跟保障外送員的權益。","先問次長，你現在的汽車運輸業管理規則跟汽車運輸貨運運價準則到什麼進度，什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，有關汽車運輸業管理規則跟運價準則，我們大概跟很多相關的關係人，不管是工會也好，消費者也好，大家都有討論，也都獲得一致的共識……"],["林委員月琴：是，大概什麼時候送進來？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們會在11月，11月應該可以公布。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長。","為什麼我們會這麼關心運價規則，因為這涉及到外送員的報酬結構，如果不夠透明，沒有明確的計算公式，就會讓外送員無從估算真正應得的報酬，並且很容易就發生爭議。因此運費明定後，至少可以從基本工資跟運費成本疊加來保障勞動權益。我相信勞動部很願意承擔這個角色，因為我覺得洪部長很用心，我想問部長，勞動部在平台跟外送員之間的契約規範，如果運費訂好之後，有沒有進一步的討論？"],["洪部長申翰：現在交通部應該可以透過公路法相關的子法來訂後續的運價，因為交通部的運價比較多是處理跟消費者之間，避免消費者權益受損，怕運價訂得太高，這是上限的部分。勞動部這邊可以處理的就會是下限的部分，避免平台給外送員的報酬過低。透過這幾個層面的把關，可以把外送員的報酬把關在一定的範圍裡面，這是我們那時候跟交通部一起討論、設計這個制度的概念。"],["林委員月琴：部長，在服務的基本流程、派單的機制跟資訊的揭露，如果遇到爭議的時候，申訴跟救濟制度，勞動部有沒有具體的規劃方向？"],["洪部長申翰：現在我們確實是希望包括像停權、終止契約等等，其實現在整個平台運作最被詬病的當然就是外送員申訴管道不明確，或者是不夠有效，所以這部分在我們的指引裡面其實也有訂定。"],["林委員月琴：是，好，謝謝部長。我想你上來之後真的很注重勞動權益，在外送員這一塊，我相信你也跟工會有一些接觸，也了解到他們的困難。","部長，我問會這樣問，像這幾天風雨不小，雙北雖然沒有達到停班停課的標準，可是像文化大學這樣的山區，現場狀況事實上就已經非常危險，可是沒有宣布停班，外送員就還是得出勤。如果被派單到山上的話，像這樣的核心問題，就是外送員接單時根本就不知道詳細的地址跟樓層，只能看到大概的範圍，那就會像開盲盒一樣，結果接單後才發現是風雨很大的山區，我怎麼去？最後被迫棄單。我想問部長，平台在派單前，到底有沒有義務提供更完整的地址跟樓層資訊，讓外送員能夠做出選擇，還是這會被認定是顧客的隱私？部長，你怎麼看？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們在送給交通部的指引裡面，其實就有考慮這個情形，外送平台要提供外送員單的時候要考慮什麼，他要考慮交通法令還有天候狀況，裡面沒有……"],["林委員月琴：可是這幾天都沒有停班停課啊，但如果要到山上去，他最後棄單，到時候不是可能會被平台懲罰？"],["王司長厚偉：另外還有時間跟地點。我們這裡有提到不可歸責，外送員接單沒辦法送到，譬如他真的拿了，他送不到是因為天候的狀況，這個責任不應該由外送員來賠償。這點在我們的指引裡也有訂。"],["林委員月琴：好，我認為就顧客的權益、平台的責任和外送員的選擇自由，可能這三方都應該要兼顧，未來是不是在定型化契約裡面可能可以把它納入考量。","部長，棄單當然可能延伸到客訴的問題，所以我要問一個比較實際的案例。當外送員遭到顧客投訴時，如果內容根本不合理，例如明明已經送達，而且交貨給本人，卻被登記為非本人取貨，外送員要跟平台說明的時候，他面對的事實上是系統留言，就是一台機器、勾選表單來回覆，他不能碰到真人解釋原因，所以很多外送員根本不知道自己的澄清意見最後會怎麼被處理，甚至直接被列為負評，也不知道原因所在。更糟的是，有的平台根本沒有真人客服可以提供外送員來因應這些不合理的申訴。部長，對這些只剩下冷冰冰的電腦對話的申訴，其實是外送員跟我們反映的，政府認為合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，基本上的確這是很多外送員反映的狀況，這也是為什麼我們認為應該要建立有效的申訴機制，甚至平台應該要有專人來處理這部分。所以在我們的指引裡面其實有訂定，就是平台應該提供專人來處理外送員不管是跟合作的商家，或者是跟消費之間可能會有的爭議，或者怎麼樣去做這些認定。的確現在很多外送員說他打電話過去，只是一個制式的回應。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長可不可以強化？因為平台真的要跟外送員有一個好的管道，甚至未來的申訴機制，可能真的要請你們這邊多費力。因為我想你也非常用心，一直非常關心外送員這一塊。","再來，外送員的職業安全也是我非常關心的問題，特別是國內的交通環境本來就存在高風險事故。過去公路局的統計資料也顯示，外送員常見的交通違規且事故傷亡的數據事實上是逐年上升。這當然不能片面責怪外送員的問題，因為我們的交通環境就不是這麼好。而現行的派單機制跟勞動環境就是如此險惡，我認為平台有責任，來肩負起強化勞動安全的相關措施。勞陣過去也有這樣的調查，以職業安全衛生設施規則對照來看的話，包括車輛安全的檢核、教育訓練、預防措施等，都存在相當高的比例是沒有做的。","我們這邊也有收到外送員的一些抱怨，想來問一下部長跟次長。請看這張圖，這是外送員還在接單的實際畫面，根據統計，以臺南市來看，2024年外送員發生事故大概有736件，其中644件是受傷的，有17.8%是因為分心駕駛。我想請問兩位，外送員告訴我們，他們接單時間只有3到5秒，而且是在一邊騎車、一邊看手機、一邊決定要不要接單的情況下操作，有時候還要縮放地圖找地點。部長，你應該也是機車族，過去也是騎機車，如果你在騎車的時候同時做這些事情，你覺得安心嗎？安全嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：確實我是機車族。當然，騎車是不應該分心的。"],["林委員月琴：是。一樣的，次長，你覺得從交通安全的角度來看，是合理的嗎？3到5秒就要接單耶，次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：當然所有的行為還是要安全，騎乘機車的時候還是要講求安全。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以我覺得這個威脅著他們，尤其大家也知道外送員所處的狀態就是很險惡。","最後，從業人員的增加，我前面提到，這些問題都會顯著增加，所以也希望政府部門的立法跟政策保障，特別是社會保險機制的投入。從勞陣過去的調查可以發現，不管是全職或者是兼職工作的外送員，投保的狀況都不是特別高，而且等同直接承受各種風險，我認為這是新法跟政府部門需要琢磨的地方；而且外送員兼職比例高達75%，要怎麼去保障他們的權益？","最後幾項也要麻煩兩位能夠促成。第一是保障外送員跟合作商家的權益，強化安全措施跟教育訓練，尤其是交通安全教育，我的版本事實上對於交通安全教育這塊有特別的琢磨。也要煩請召委，審查前是不是能夠召開公聽會，來廣納各方的意見？因為我剛剛提的問題，你看在山區，派單如果講不清楚的話，反而對外送員不利。","我要講的就是，有時候快不是好，產工業也好，職工業也好，對於民進黨提出來的版本，他們認為是最完整、最好的。所以這一塊，我希望我們在會議討論當中，可以讓他們能夠充分表達意見。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員發言。","請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da8924cf525fff258934f1f132b5784e0483c966d97180d5d26d8280b3e7255b855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:50:59 - 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也是希望这个报酬的计算能够让外送员比方说他自己可以他自己可以掌握比方他跑了多长跑了多长的距离所以大概可以换算成多少的报酬他对于他的劳务的提供跟报酬的取得之间他是能够预期的他是能够安排的他是能够在他更多的掌控里面的而不会变得好像他跑了"},{"start":240.949,"end":262.136,"text":"一段可是到底會拿到多少報酬那個差異太大了他很難預期這個我們也不希望是這樣是好那我們當然希望就是說立這個專法之後就是保障外送員的這個權益然後那報酬的部分應該是要更透明那另外我想請教因為有時候我們在平台上面會"},{"start":263.036,"end":279.205,"text":"有一些這個平台他可能會有一些免運什麼什麼譬如說一些紀念日還是什麼就是免運費或者是有折扣有折扣或免運費那有時候這個部分可能會加租在這個外送員的"},{"start":279.645,"end":308.144,"text":"这个报酬里面也许你在跑这个单的时候或者这一段时间这几天在跑单的时候就会因为我们这个平台有做这样的一个活动那你的报酬可能也会有一些影响那我想请教就是说像类似这样平台在做活动或优惠的这个期间是不是也可以保障就是说这些外送员他的权益是不会受到他们平台自己本身在做活动然后受到影响"},{"start":308.755,"end":333.516,"text":"其实现在刚刚委员讲的部分在在交货指引上面其实我们的指引在我们的指引上面其实就有规定了那也就是说这个平台的促销不应该是变成是外送人在承担承担这个所谓的优惠或者是什么的不应该是外送人来负担那所以这是为什么我们希望是整体性的考虑他的整整体性的报酬因为"},{"start":334.477,"end":363.476,"text":"外送平台他可能會有很多這個費那個費這個名目那個名目其實不容易對他每一個部分都但是整體性的報酬要有一個基本的保障為什麼這也是為什麼我們從這個角度思考那我想再請教就是說部長未來現在可能是外送員可能有這樣的一個專法那未來就是Uber也是類似這樣的一個平台那未來會不會也是有這樣子的一個專法我覺得"},{"start":364.557,"end":385.323,"text":"各個樣態都有可能因為像現在就是說在網路譬如說你可能叫Uber也是非常方便所以未來也是有可能針對不同的樣態未來也有可能不同樣態立不同不一樣的專法"},{"start":386.483,"end":405.281,"text":"所以我觉得部长可能你们要立这个专法之后可能也要再去想一下也许未来不一样的职业别然后不一样的这个样态也会需要立这样的一个专法有没有可能跟文说明其实文讲的是其实是直直一个核心就是说"},{"start":406.622,"end":433.377,"text":"的确过去在做部会分工的时候也是考虑到那未来可能还有多少样态会怎么去做分工所以其实在相关的部会分工里面的挑战会比传统的一些业务来得多但我们其实也是考虑到确实这些新兴的经济经营的形态的确在法制方面是需要多一些的保障那也包括"},{"start":435.166,"end":439.091,"text":"我們過去希望用透過行政協調的方式等等方式希望能夠去促成"},{"start":440.475,"end":466.958,"text":"平台跟外送員之間的很多重要的討論但我們的確在這些執行裡面也看到恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護所以我坦白說我們其實是我們部裡面的同仁很辛苦所以我們其實願意跨出這一步其實是部裡面的同仁也願意承擔了很多在這些新興的工作上面的任務這部分是"},{"start":467.719,"end":481.697,"text":"部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的我剛剛講就是說新興的這種職業樣態其實會越來越多啦那我們今天立了這個專法未來可能還有其他方面的類似這樣的職業也需要立專法所以我覺得說部長因為你是照顧勞工"},{"start":485.04,"end":509.895,"text":"照顾劳工的这个主管机关所以我们希望就是未来这样的这个样态真的是各式各样可能要再去考虑那另外就是说我们看到新加坡有针对这个平台有通过一个平台工人法那要求平台跟平台工作者要共同负担中央公积金还有平台需要负起工商保险的责任那我们看到这个我们今天立的这个专法"},{"start":510.555,"end":531.166,"text":"好像讓這個平台在這個部分的責任好像減輕了許多那我們沒有就是我們沒有看到就是說有一個什麼共同負擔的公積金那也沒有這個平台負擔工商費用的一些相關的責任歸屬那我想請教就是說勞動部針對這樣的部分你們的立場到底是怎樣"},{"start":533.775,"end":551.844,"text":"報告委員有關於那個保險的部分我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在摘保的地方看能不能給我們的外送員更多的保障那至於那個勞退提撥的部分因為可能知識體大我們還是需要多點時間聆聽各界的意見我們會來做參考"},{"start":553.044,"end":569.274,"text":"那我還是要再次提到就是說保障勞工的權益這個是我們勞動部要做的有一些如果覺得這個專法可能不足的部分應該也要還要再去想怎麼樣讓他更完善然後保障我們這些外送員的權益"},{"start":570.672,"end":599.651,"text":"其實委員點到了一個很重要的部分就是說其實因為台灣的勞動法制那在僱傭承攬之間其實就是傳統其實在這個體系下面去做運作那的確這個法的訂定它其實是會突破了很多過去的框架那這也是這個事情對於行政部門來說很具挑戰的地方那也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久會需要好一段時間來去評估的原因"},{"start":600.351,"end":614.297,"text":"所以當然我們對於未來新興的樣態包括委員現在提供的這些經驗我們都願意來去做一些參考可是的確在整體的法治框架裡面有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時51分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員早。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天這個議題是很多外送員所關心的，所以我想請教部長，現在的外送員可能是隨時想跑就跑、想要兼差就兼差，也不需要打卡，未來會不會因為立這個專法之後而有所受限？因為我們看到之前的法院判例是有僱傭關係，未來立了這個專法之後，會不會變成想要兼職、兼差的人可能會有一些受限？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不要這樣的事情發生。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以你們會怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛剛委員提到的，在勞動關係的認定上，要認定是僱傭還是承攬？的確，是僱傭還是承攬現在各方還有不太一樣的意見，所以基本上我們會比較認為把外送員目前所需要的權益保障，比方保險的保障、報酬的保障、契約的保障，明確的放到法裡面去保障，用這個方式就好，而不一定要在法裡面直接定性它是僱傭或者承攬關係。"],["黃委員秀芳：但法院之前有幾個判例是僱傭關係，未來這個專法立了之後，會不會有一些矛盾的地方？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在法院也有不同的判決，當然，法院怎麼判，我們必須尊重法院在個案上的判定，可是實際上，我們認為還是必須綜合考慮，思考外送員的整個保障制度、權益應該怎麼做。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，再請教部長，如果是僱傭關係，以勞基法來講，可能就有最低薪資，如果是這樣的話，你覺得外送員的最基本薪資報酬是多少？你認為怎樣才是合理的？"],["洪部長申翰：作為法規的主管機關，我們當然希望他的報酬至少要有一個最低的保障，而這個最低保障至少要高於最低工資，比方最低工資的時薪，不是整體薪資，而是每一單平均下來要超過最低工資的時薪，這樣比較能夠符合大家對所謂薪資或者報酬保障的概念。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我們也希望薪資報酬的部分應該更透明化。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：讓所有外送員在跑單的時候，可以知道自己接了多少單，報酬大約多少，我覺得未來立這個專法之後，這部分應該可以要求，就是薪資報酬應該更透明。"],["洪部長申翰：是，其實我們也希望報酬的計算能夠讓外送員自己掌握，比方他跑了多長的距離，大概可以換算成多少報酬，對於他的勞務提供跟報酬取得之間是能夠預期、能夠安排、能夠在他的更多掌控之下，而不會變得好像他跑了一段，可是到底會拿到多少報酬，兩者之間的差異太大，讓他很難預期，我們也不希望是這樣。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們當然希望立這個專法之後，可以保障外送員的權益，報酬的部分也會更透明。另外，一些平台可能會有免運什麼的優惠，譬如一些紀念日還是什麼的，就會免運費或者有折扣，有時候這個部分可能就會加諸在外送員的報酬裡面，也許他在跑單的時候，因為這一段時間平台有做這樣的活動，他的報酬可能就會受到一些影響，請問部長，平台在做類似的活動或優惠期間，是不是可以保障外送員的權益不受平台本身活動的影響？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛委員講的部分，在我們的指引就有相關規定，也就是平台的促銷優惠或什麼的不應該變成由外送員來承擔，不應該由外送員負擔，這也是為什麼我們希望是整體性的考慮他的整個報酬，因為外送平台可能會有很多這個費、那個費，這個名目、那個名目，其實不容易對他們每一部分都……但整體性的報酬要有一個基本保障，這也是為什麼我們從這個角度來思考這個法案。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在外送員有這樣一個專法，未來類似Uber那樣的平台，會不會也有他們的專法？我覺得各個樣態都有可能，現在網路上叫Uber也非常方便，未來也有可能針對不同的樣態而立不一樣的專法，我覺得你們在立這個專法之後，可能要再思考一下，也許未來不一樣的職業別、不一樣的樣態，也會需要立這樣的專法，有沒有可能？"],["洪部長申翰：委員講的其實直指一個核心，的確過去在做部會分工的時候，也有考慮到未來可能還有多少樣態、會怎麼分工，所以在相關部會裡的分工挑戰，會比傳統的一些業務來得多，我們其實也有考慮到這些新興的經濟經營型態，的確在法制方面需要多一些保障，也包括我們過去希望透過行政協調等等方式，能夠促成平台跟外送員之間的很多重要討論，但我們也的確在這些指引裡面看到，恐怕還是需要更進一步的保護，所以我坦白說，我們部裡的同仁很辛苦，但我們其實願意跨出這一步，部裡面的同仁也願意承擔很多這種新興工作上面的任務，這部分部裡面的同仁是很辛苦的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，就像我剛剛講的，這種新興的職業樣態其實會越來越多，我們今天立了這個專法，未來可能還有其他方面、類似這樣的職業也需要立專法，因為部長你是照顧勞工的主管機關，未來的職業樣態真的是各式各樣，這部分可能要再去考慮。","另外，我看到新加坡針對類似平台有通過一個平台工人法，要求平台跟平台工作者要共同負擔中央公積金，還有平台需要負起工傷保險的責任，但我看我們今天立的這個專法，好像讓平台在這個部分的責任減輕了許多，沒有看到有什麼共同負擔的公積金，也沒有平台要負擔工傷費用的一些相關責任歸屬，所以我想請教勞動部，針對這個部分，你們的立場到底是怎麼樣？"],["王司長厚偉：報告委員，有關於保險的部分，我們將來朝向的方向也是希望在災保部分看看能不能給外送員更多的保障。至於勞退提撥的部分，因為可能茲事體大，我們還是需要多一點時間來聆聽各界的意見，會來做參考。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我還是要再次提到，保障勞工的權益是勞動部要做的，如果覺得這個專法可能有一些不足的部分，應該也還要再去想怎麼樣讓它更完善，保障這些外送員的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：其實委員點到一個很重要的部分，因為臺灣的勞動法制是在僱傭、承攬之間這個傳統體系下運作，的確這個法的訂定會突破很多過去的框架，對於行政部門來說是很具挑戰的，這也是為什麼行政部門內部評估這麼久，會需要好一段時間來評估的原因。當然我們對於未來新興的樣態，包括委員現在提供的這些經驗，我們都願意來做參考。可是的確在整體的法制框架裡，有時候我們也會需要為整體的框架去做一些考慮。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員發言","請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}},{"id":"164561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4daf88254a6215cd451ad42acad3a0f8ea683c966d97180d5d26d8280b3e7255b855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:01:58 - 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有請吳主委跟太空中心吳主任請吳主委以及吳主任林委員好雙吳主委好首先我們恭喜太空中心福衛八號第一顆衛星人質完成特別是在這個月八號要起運準備送到美國去發射升空我想這是很多現在已經在美國了"},{"start":31.212,"end":57.217,"text":"喔 已經在美國 對 8號起運嘛 對對對對準備升空啦 準備升空那我想說這是很多人的心血跟投入喔那在此先恭喜我們國科會跟太陽中心完成這項兼具的任務那接下來我就要請教的是說在福衛8號這個首科衛星的研製過程其實它是跟我們國內有33個產官學研的單位合作"},{"start":57.797,"end":72.688,"text":"那國科會的新聞稿有指出說如果衛星順利運行那合作的夥伴就可以藉這個驗證的技術來這個衛星的原件跟軟體就可以取得飛行履歷那這樣的話就可以爭取國際訂單"},{"start":74.309,"end":82.776,"text":"那我的理解是說這是不是會帶動很多的單位或廠商進軍國際遙測衛星的籌載原件這個市場那會有效提高我國整體的太空產業產值"},{"start":90.842,"end":117.542,"text":"那請教主委我這樣的理解正確嗎的確委員講得很對這也是戴總統講的我們要禁足太空一個很重要的我們要帶動台灣的產業發展將來變成是全世界在太空科技裡面很重要的一個供應鏈是對這個主委就把我下一個問題已經回答了其實我就是要問你說那我們再來要怎麼樣促進就是協助我國業者去爭取所謂的國際訂單是"},{"start":120.104,"end":140.604,"text":"那就是因為台灣現在因為太空中心的努力那我們帶進產業界來教他們怎麼樣去做這個衛星並且衛星裡面的很多的這個籌載包含未來通信衛星用的這個通信的籌載現在台灣我們慢慢都自主在發展發展以後我們太空中心現在還跟台灣的電子五哥的廠商"},{"start":141.224,"end":170.194,"text":"也签约了将来把智慧制造引进来跟太空结合将来我们的产业发展以后就可以变成全世界不管是美国 欧洲 日本等等做这个低轨通信卫星将来要来跟台湾合作可以做这个量产还有这个地面站的设备还有这个使用者的终端设备将来都可以连结在一起台湾将来都有能力去帮全世界来做这个太空产业的一个很重要的制造"},{"start":170.914,"end":190.654,"text":"所以這是我們禁足太空賴總統講的禁足太空的政府的政策好 那另外一個太空的議題是說國科會有預計要在台南的沙崙建設一個火箭整合測試研發基地進行火箭原件跟次系統的開發製造測試跟組裝"},{"start":194.538,"end":209.757,"text":"目前進度看起來好像有提工建計畫在行政院要核定今年度也預計今年度要取得用地我們預計明後年就要進行工程設計跟發包施工想要請教一下"},{"start":210.498,"end":230.177,"text":"合訂這個工建計畫行政院合訂了嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題是那未來預計會怎麼樣在那邊推動太空的這個產業那以後如何結合周遭的這個鏈結周遭的這個生活應該是生態圈 鏈結周遭的生態圈來進行這個發展這兩個問題"},{"start":233.561,"end":261.662,"text":"謝謝委員 委員是很內行我們這個沙崙的火箭整合測試研發基地的工建計畫行政院剛剛核定了剛剛 OK已經核定所以我們現在接下來就可以開始做明年的預算已經編了希望能夠開始去做這個設計希望在未來的四年內能夠看到它可以建成然後我們開始進行這個研發"},{"start":262.603,"end":284.929,"text":"那这一部分因为它紧邻着我们未来的沙伦生态科学园区所以将来我们除了在半导体的发展之外也会希望能够逐步的建立刚刚跟委员报告的我们太空产业的整个产业链能够在南部也可以扮演这样的角色好的"},{"start":286.189,"end":301.993,"text":"那接著我想要關心的是主任 剛剛那個問議題你有沒有補充的沒有喔 他是最主要的貢獻者太空阿伯那我們接下來要關心就是國科會我們有一個無人機關鍵技術前瞻研發計畫"},{"start":304.514,"end":322.612,"text":"那這個計畫是2024年我們開始進行這個計畫徵求看起來是審查後有補助個13個案子那目前也培育了149個人這個關鍵技術人才那我們看到上週五行政院院會有報告說行政院要透過經濟部"},{"start":323.813,"end":328.959,"text":"來推行無人機產發統籌計畫那預計從今年起到2030年陸續要投入442億的經費喔要拼2030年的產值達到400億元那所以我們"},{"start":341.132,"end":365.968,"text":"就展現說我們想要成為這個無人機這個國家隊的雄心壯志看得出來那也成為無人機民主供應鏈亞洲中心的決心那無人機我想是各種領域的關鍵技術他不只在國防海巡還有應用在各種的像說災防科技呀或者生活民生領域所以"},{"start":366.708,"end":379.001,"text":"請教主委是國科會這個計畫他目前計畫跟如何怎麼樣跟經濟部我想得到工科院或者是中科院或者是交通部來合作這個計畫"},{"start":380.267,"end":400.116,"text":"好,那個委員剛剛提到的有兩個,一個就是國會的,我們工程室,洪書長在這邊,我們是鼓勵我們的學界,學界要做研發未來比較先進的這種無人機的設計啦,還有系統的整合,軟硬體整合,等等的機隊的管理。"},{"start":401.457,"end":424.623,"text":"這些東西學界一定要下去做研究培養人才未來產業需要的人才剛剛提到第二個就是經濟部現在的計畫也是編在我們的科技預算裡面這個計畫的重點就是產業就要發展產品了這個產品有包含對我們國安需求的也包含民用的商用的等等這些東西都會在"},{"start":425.143,"end":442.357,"text":"我們整個產業發展的藍圖裡面這一部分國客會努力的來結合各部會因為不是只有科技發展產品製作而已在應用端我們各部會編的這個預算要讓應用端可以使用包含海委會的使用"},{"start":442.917,"end":458.912,"text":"农业部的使用交通部的使用甚至经济部很多的产业发展交通部在做公共工程的建设等等所有这些东西都会用到无人机我们在灾防也会需要救灾也会需要所以委员刚刚讲的都是正确的"},{"start":459.252,"end":485.695,"text":"我們正在努力朝這個方向再進行那我還要請教是說我看到前一陣子國科會有公開增建一個叫做台灣運動文化研究專案計畫我們談到運動研究我們都幫會想到說我們如何跟提升運動選手效能的這個運科研究那可是本席覺得你提到這個運動文化這個探討非常有趣舉例來說譬如說你增建計畫"},{"start":486.616,"end":496.384,"text":"中有提到說運動文化與歷史還有運動媒體與消費文化創新與社會影響或者是說地緣政治與台灣國際體育這個運動參與這些這些這個政見的這個計畫的這個名稱你會發現說運動不只是運動他跟"},{"start":507.013,"end":527.083,"text":"這個社會學研究跟這個傳播學研究跟真學研究都有關係所以想簡單請教主委是說之後這個徵件的內容你會怎麼樣跟運動部因為大部分是運動嘛跟運動部來合作或怎麼樣去展示這些應用的研究或者是你期待看到怎麼樣的徵件內容"},{"start":529.681,"end":557.856,"text":"行政院卓院长也请我来协助运动部因为运动部成立以后它就不是只有像过去在照顾顶尖的运动员而已对 全民运动我们是希望能够推展全民运动还有运动的产业既然要推展全民运动我们就希望说未来的发展是要运动变成是我们文化里面一个很重要的元素因为是全民的需求了全民需求要塑造这种全民的运动"},{"start":559.059,"end":581.778,"text":"当中就很多的我们人文社会领域的学者就要进来协助协助怎么样去让我们的政策更完善让未来的这个发展会让我们的民众都能够接受所以这一点跟刚刚委员讲的目标是一样的国客会现在努力在做这个事情我请我们那个黄组长补充一下好好好来"},{"start":582.799,"end":599.005,"text":"是 跟委員報告這件事情就是說我們希望讓運動能夠深入到每個人的生活裡頭去所以這裡面的主題大概會有一個很重要的精神就是說假如未來我們的民眾他們也能夠在自己的生活裡頭就去談論"},{"start":600.445,"end":622.908,"text":"他不仅仅只是去讨论说今天有哪一个很好的运动员有非常好的一个成果就是说我也能够谈谈我今天做了什么运动我跟别人做了什么样的互动那这样子就代表我们的运动真的深入到我们的文化里头去了解所以等于是这个的专案计划某个程度他就是要推展全民运动做准备"},{"start":623.388,"end":651.797,"text":"是 對我們全民的身心健康會是一個很重要的幫助也是賴總統健康台灣的願景一個很重要的施政的項目好 最後再小小的請求一下就是我們看到國科會為了讓人文社會科學研究提供更多的人文關懷跟藝術價值跟社會大眾來交流分享所以我們今天辦了有98個場次從2017年開始有人文沙龍的系列活動"},{"start":652.757,"end":679.73,"text":"那跟我們台南相關的主題就是蘇碩斌老師有主講一個台南第四個一百年這個國立台灣文學館何以立在府城中心的這樣一個這個講座那我比較關心的是說因為最近評普原住民身份法有通過那其中在二十二條就有提到說各級教育主管機關應推動相關的教育政策促進全體國民認識並尊重評普原住民族"},{"start":680.31,"end":698.528,"text":"那所以想要請到主委像這種人文沙龍的系列裡面可不可以規劃辦理平埔原住民相關的人文沙龍來促進我們全體國民對平埔原住民不管是文化歷史轉型正義的相關認識謝謝委員的建議我想這個建議很好我想請我們黃處長來努力來實現好 謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝李一金委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委跟太空中心吳主任。"],["主席：請吳主委以及吳主任。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：雙吳的主任、主委好。首先，我們恭喜太空中心福衛八號第一顆衛星研製完成，特別是在這個月8號要啟運，準備送到美國去發射升空……"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在已經在美國了。"],["林委員宜瑾：已經在美國了喔？對、對、對，8號就啟運了，所以要準備升空了，我想這是很多人的心血跟投入，在此先恭喜我們國科會跟太空中心完成這項艱巨任務。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：接下來要請教的是，在福衛八號首顆衛星的研製過程中，其實它是跟我們國內33個產官學研的單位合作，國科會的新聞稿指出，如果衛星順利運行，合作的夥伴就可以藉由這個驗證的技術，還有衛星的元件跟軟體就可以取得飛行履歷，這樣的話就可以爭取國際訂單。我的理解是，這會帶動很多單位或廠商進軍國際遙測衛星酬載元件的市場，會有效提高我國整體的太空產業產值，請教主委，我這樣的理解正確嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：的確，委員講得很正確，這也是賴總統講的，這是我們要競逐太空很重要的一步，可以帶動臺灣的產業發展，將來變成全世界太空科技裡面一個很重要的供應鏈。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，主委已經回答我下一個問題了，其實我就是要問你，再來我們要怎麼樣來促進、協助我國業者去爭取所謂的國際訂單？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，臺灣現在因為太空中心的努力，我們就帶進產業界來，教他們怎麼樣去做衛星，並且衛星裡面很多的酬載，包含未來通信衛星用的通信酬載，我們臺灣現在慢慢地都自主在發展；我們太空中心現在還跟臺灣電子五哥的廠商也簽約了，把智慧製造引進來跟太空結合，將來我們的產業發展以後，就可以變成全世界，不管是美國、歐洲、日本等等，凡做低軌通訊衛星的，將來若要跟臺灣合作，我們就可以來做量產，還有地面站的設備、使用者的終端設備，將來都可以連結在一起，臺灣將來都有能力去幫全世界來做太空產業其中一個很重要的製造，所以這是賴總統講的「競逐太空」的政府政策。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另外一個太空的議題，國科會預計要在臺南沙崙建設一個火箭整合測試研發基地，進行火箭元件跟次系統的開發、製造、測試跟組裝，目前的進度看起來，好像有提公建計畫預計要經行政院核定，預計今年度要取得用地，預計明後年就要進行工程設計跟發包施工，想請教一下，行政院核定這個公建計畫了嗎？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，未來預計會在那邊要怎麼樣推動太空產業？以後如何結合、鏈結周遭的生態圈來進行發展？以上這兩個問題請教主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。委員很內行，我們沙崙火箭整合測試研發基地的公建計畫，行政院剛剛核定了。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經核定了，所以我們接下來就可以開始……且明年的預算也已經編了，希望能夠開始去做設計，也希望未來4年內能夠看到它建成，然後我們就開始進行研發，這一部分因為緊鄰著未來的沙崙生態科學園區，所以將來我們除了在半導體發展之外，也希望能夠逐步的建立剛剛跟委員報告的太空產業的整個產業鏈，也就是在南部也可以扮演這樣的角色。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。對了，主任，剛剛那個議題你有沒有要補充的？"],["吳主任宗信：沒有。"],["吳主任委員誠文：他是最主要的貢獻者。"],["林委員宜瑾：對、對、對，「太空阿伯」！","接下來我要關心的是，國科會有一個無人機關鍵技術前瞻研發計畫，2024年開始進行計畫徵求，看起來是審查後有補助了13個案子，目前也培育了149個關鍵技術人才。","我們看到上周五行政院院會的報告說，行政院要透過經濟部來推行無人機產發統籌計畫，預計從今年起到2030年，陸續要投入442億的經費，要拼2030年的產值達到400億元，以展現我們要成為無人機國家隊的雄心壯志，也展現要成為無人機民主供應鏈亞洲中心的決心。","我想無人機是各種領域的關鍵技術，不只是在國防、海巡，還有應用在各種的像災防科技或者生活、民生領域，所以我請教主委，國科會目前如何跟經濟部或是中科院，或是交通部來合作這個計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員剛剛提到的有兩個，一個就是國科會的計畫，我們工程處的洪處長也在這邊。基本上，我們是鼓勵我們的學界要研發未來比較先進的無人機設計，還有系統的整合、軟硬體整合等等的機隊管理，這些東西學界一定要下去做研究，以培養未來產業需要的人才。","剛剛提到的第二個，經濟部現在的這個計畫也是編在我們的科技預算裡面，這個計畫重點就是產業要發展產品了，這個產品有包含對我們國安需求的，也包含民用的、商用的等等，這些東西都會在我們整個產業發展的藍圖裡面，國科會會努力結合各部會，因為不是只有科技發展、產品製作而已，在應用端的部分，我們各部會編了這個預算，就要讓應用端可以使用，包含海委會的使用、農業部的使用、交通部的使用，甚至經濟部很多的產業發展，交通部在做公共工程的建設等等，所有這些東西都會用到無人機。此外，我們在災防上也會需要，救災上也會需要，所以委員剛剛講的都是正確的，我們正在努力朝這個方向進行。"],["林委員宜瑾：還要請教的是，我看到前一陣子國科會有公開徵件，叫做臺灣運動文化研究專案計畫，談到運動研究，大多會想到如何提升運動選手效能的運科研究，可是本席覺得，你提到的運動文化探討非常有趣。譬如說，你在徵件計畫中提到了運動文化與歷史，還有運動媒體與消費文化、創新與社會影響，或者是地緣政治與臺灣國際體育運動參與，就這些徵件的計畫名稱來看，你會發現運動不只是運動，跟社會學研究、傳播學研究、政治學研究都有關係，所以想簡單請教主委，之後這個徵件的內容，因為大部分都是運動，你會怎麼樣跟運動部來合作？或者怎麼樣去展示這些應用的研究，或者是你期待看到怎麼樣的徵件內容？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院卓院長也請我來協助運動部，因為運動部成立以後，就不是只有像過去在照顧頂尖的運動員而已……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，全民運動。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們希望能夠推展全民運動，還有運動的產業。既然要推展全民運動，我們就希望未來的發展是要讓運動變成我們文化裡面一個很重要的元素，因為是全民的需求，要塑造這種全民的運動，很多我們人文社會領域的學者就要進來協助，協助讓我們的政策看看怎樣會更完善，未來的發展讓我們的民眾都能夠接受，所以這一點跟剛剛委員講的目標是一樣的。總之，國科會現在正努力在做這個事情，我請黃處長補充一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，這件事情就是我們希望讓運動能夠深入到每個人的生活裡頭去，所以這裡面的主題大概會有一個很重要的精神，就是假如未來我們的民眾也能夠在自己的生活裡頭就去談論運動，不僅僅只是討論今天有哪一個很好的運動員有非常好的成果，若也能夠談談今天自己做了什麼運動，跟別人做了什麼樣的互動，這樣子就代表我們的運動真的深入到我們的文化裡頭去，也就是每個人的運動。"],["林委員宜瑾：了解，所以等於這個專案計畫某個程度就是為推展全民運動來做準備？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，對我們全民的身心健康會有很重要的幫助，也是賴總統健康台灣願景中一個很重要的施政項目。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後再小小請求一下，我們看到國科會為了讓人文社會科學研究提供更多的人文關懷跟藝術價值，跟社會大眾來交流分享，所以我們已經辦了98個場次，即從2017年開始，進行人文沙龍的系列活動，其中跟我們臺南相關的主題，就是蘇碩斌老師有主講一個「臺南第四個一百年：國立臺灣文學館何以立在府城中心」的講座。","我比較關心的是，因為最近平埔原住民族群身分法通過了，其中第二十二條就有提到，各級教育主管機關應推動相關教育政策，促進全體國民認識並尊重平埔原住民族。所以想要請教主委，像這種人文沙龍的系列裡面，可不可以規劃辦理平埔原住民相關的人文沙龍，來促進我們全體國民對於平埔原住民，不管是文化、歷史、轉型正義相關的認識？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員的建議，這個建議很好，我會請我們黃處長來努力實現。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員質詢，主委請回座。","接下來請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da14b28f05786891aee29853ba2d60c06d83c966d97180d5d24034e7fd9a14e5935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:59:22 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謝謝主席 現在請主席講我們請主席講"},{"start":14.763,"end":42.904,"text":"主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項"},{"start":44.405,"end":66.718,"text":"剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長"},{"start":67.799,"end":93.357,"text":"你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎"},{"start":94.068,"end":123.468,"text":"是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照"},{"start":124.348,"end":124.588,"text":"都差不多"},{"start":146.854,"end":170.442,"text":"所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要填列表格比如說0到6歲的部分"},{"start":170.842,"end":186.707,"text":"就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請其實 署長 因為就是說"},{"start":192.449,"end":221.179,"text":"現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目"},{"start":222.239,"end":239.373,"text":"因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚"},{"start":239.913,"end":257.116,"text":"今天你大概有講出幾個基本的狀況所以我想還是請未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的修法"},{"start":257.717,"end":278.915,"text":"我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正"},{"start":279.777,"end":302.952,"text":"這個是我給你的一個建議 以後要改進當然我們還有一個非常重要的一個問題就是說這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的修正導致我們地方政府自籌財源的時候它的比例變成三級跳"},{"start":303.956,"end":320.392,"text":"那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個"},{"start":321.753,"end":335.071,"text":"依照修正後的這個財政收視化分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到啊你現在就把它加進來造成他的財政機制變成三級跳這樣公平合理嗎"},{"start":337.185,"end":355.163,"text":"115他確定會拿到所以等於是說我們知道115會拿到我如果不納入考量他影響數真的是太大他是真的是太大所以這個部分我必須把它納入我的一個整個一個財政的一個級距裡面去做考量這樣對我整個"},{"start":355.883,"end":382.725,"text":"台灣才會比較有效的一個運用那所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均那這對所有有一些其他的一個縣市是很大的不公平現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的嘛"},{"start":383.445,"end":397.88,"text":"因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年絕對會入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自首款要提高"},{"start":398.888,"end":421.193,"text":"自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法"},{"start":421.713,"end":437.511,"text":"但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK"},{"start":438.912,"end":454.464,"text":"所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們"},{"start":455.865,"end":470.404,"text":"做大事要走大路不要說是好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長"},{"start":478.088,"end":497.616,"text":"市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導"},{"start":499.257,"end":509.832,"text":"財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額所以我要請教部長"},{"start":511.145,"end":530.238,"text":"先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助積損財政收支的差額"},{"start":532.696,"end":555.987,"text":"委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會"},{"start":556.807,"end":576.614,"text":"按照哪一種公式啊你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要次長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就去做二次分配啊"},{"start":577.834,"end":597.242,"text":"你就做二次分配嘛二次分配還有餘額就做第三次的分配嘛這樣不是很單純嗎但是問題沒有修法我們就是因為它明文規定就是沒有規定我們就依照這種方式就依照原來法律的規定的一個精神去做再次分配嘛是說它明文規定"},{"start":598.422,"end":623.902,"text":"它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去"},{"start":624.843,"end":640.204,"text":"市長你財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配"},{"start":640.965,"end":661.594,"text":"我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足嗎這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在那邊將來就是說如果將來如果公司解決了"},{"start":668.177,"end":694.414,"text":"能夠儘速解決這個問題然後看財政部如何來修法來把它解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關這個營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個"},{"start":701.418,"end":724.219,"text":"這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的這個統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低"},{"start":725.199,"end":745.204,"text":"我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為蠻細的那我是覺得 簡單惡要講簡單惡要講所以我這樣講 我還是會後再跟委員解釋好不好是 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說"},{"start":746.604,"end":768.12,"text":"就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則"},{"start":769.261,"end":782.408,"text":"所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量這個我們都是我想我們的目標是一樣再做回覆了再給 稍微回覆一下好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時59分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長好。主計長，我上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候就有跟院長及您請教，針對中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法的修正條文，將一般性補助款之補助範圍改為具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質、財政均衡等事項，剛才李彥秀委員也指出所謂「具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質」是很抽象的法律概念，具體內容到底是什麼，我看地方政府到現在都霧煞煞，不是很了解啦！所以請問主計長，你是否可以明確地告訴我們，到底一般性補助款的補助項目還有評比基準、補助比率有什麼樣的具體內容？要很具體地告訴各地方縣市政府啊！否則現在改成申請制，他們要如何申請真的會搞不清楚。主計長，你可以簡要地跟我們說明嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，一般性補助款整個項目的評比基準還有補助比率是由各部會訂定，其實大部分也都屬於舊有計畫，新的計畫比較少，因為新計畫中有很多要經過核定的手續，所以大部分是舊計畫。很多縣市政府其實可以沿用舊有項目，只是分配時會按照財力級距分配，所以可能就整體分配比例做調整，但是計畫的項目、評比的基準大概都是沿用以往。除非有一些部分是沒有補助的，要不然其他大概都跟以往一樣。"],["林委員思銘：都差不多啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：都差不多，沒有很大的變動。除了有一部分回歸地方，由其所獲得的統籌分配稅款支應之外，大部分都沿用以前的做法。但是以前針對每一項目都要提計畫，今年也改成只須填列表格，譬如說0至6歲補助部分，大概有將……"],["林委員思銘：就是簡化就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，計畫方面簡化很多，所以就整個程序上來講更方便、更便利，而不是因為須要申請就會比較困難。但是有一些大計畫的確須要申請，譬如說捷運、軌道，這些都是必須申請的。"],["林委員思銘：好，主計長，我大概了解。但是因為現在改成申請制，大家會有一種疑慮，就是申請出去以後是不是確實能拿到這樣的補助，也才有會不會中央說了算的疑慮。我們認為改成這樣的辦法其實對地方政府來說充滿不確定性，所以我才要你很明確地說明到底什麼是未來地方政府要申請的項目啊！你雖然把原則講出來：「具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質」，剛剛又提到就是跟以前一樣，但具體內容到底怎麼樣在整個辦法訂定的過程中其實都沒有講得很清楚。雖然你今天大概講出幾個基本狀況，但還是請主計總處未來在整個辦法修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府講清楚，才不會讓人家感覺是黑箱修法，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在9月17日召開過縣市政府會議，很明確地告訴他們有哪些項目……"],["林委員思銘：但你們在829就已經把辦法修好了，我是說修法之前啦！在修這個辦法之前，你就應該請各地方縣市政府來，跟他們說清楚、講明白嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，如果搭配新修財劃法之後，我們也會做修正。"],["林委員思銘：不要修了之後才請他們來，這是我給你的建議啦！以後要改進啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們會重新考慮，謝謝委員的指教。"],["林委員思銘：還有一個非常重要的問題。這次修正中，各縣市政府原來的財力級次也被修正，導致地方政府自籌財源的比例三級跳。辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的歲入決算審定數，現在變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款。也就是說，縣市過去三年依照修正後財政收支劃分法所分配到的統籌分配稅款根本還沒拿到，你們卻現在就把它加進來，造成縣市的財政級次三級跳，這樣公平、合理嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：縣市在115年確定會拿到，所以等於……"],["林委員思銘：對，我們知道115年會拿到啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果不納入考量，影響度真的太大。"],["林委員思銘：但是你把級次調高啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：由於影響度真的太大，所以這部分必須納入整個財政級距考量，這樣對均衡臺灣才能比較有效地運用。115年度已經確定，所以我們一定要納入影響數考量。如果不納入影響數考量，而是用以前年度三年的平均，對部分縣市是很大的不公平。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我現在要跟你討論的是，雖然你有你的考量，但是這樣的辦法根本就是不對的嘛！因為錢就是還沒入帳啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年絕對可以入帳。"],["林委員思銘：115年的還沒入帳啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年絕對會入帳，而且有的縣市一年增加四、五百億元，十年就會增加四、五千億元。"],["林委員思銘：但是你壓縮補助款，變成它的自籌款就要提高嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：縣市的自有財源增加，自籌款當然要提高，有一些縣市本身統籌分配稅款沒有增加那麼多，自籌款當然要減少，這樣各縣市才能得到均衡的照顧啊！"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你現在是單方面提出你的看法，但是你看看各縣市政府，包含我們新竹縣，財政級次有那麼好嗎？你直接我們調整為第一級，從第三級變成第一級！"],["陳主計長淑姿：它在22縣市裡面是排行第一。"],["林委員思銘：這樣看起來就是非常不合理啦！","我一直跟你強調，整個辦法不是不贊成你修，但是在修法過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府，並聆聽他們的意見，讓整個辦法更完整一點。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也希望如此。"],["林委員思銘：做大事要走大路啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員思銘：不要小鼻子小眼睛，不敢讓各地方縣市政府參與，這樣的辦法修出來，當然大家會有非常大的意見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員思銘：你請回。","請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，關於這次補助辦法的修正，主計總處剛剛提到是為了因應財劃法的修正。昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個統籌分配稅款的分配方式，根據媒體報導，財政部表示將研擬把普通統籌稅款優先全額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以我要請教部長，先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有統籌分配款，就如同我們剛才講的，那345億元餘額沒有辦法分配。那麼現在財政部又是打算以哪種方式優先全額補助基準財政收支的差額？"],["阮次長清華：委員是講345億元的問題嗎？"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["阮次長清華：345億元單純是因為計算公式的問題，所以假定大家有共識、也修公式的話，基本上那是地方的財源，我們還是會按照公式分配給各地方政府。"],["林委員思銘：按照哪一種公式啊？你現在講的公式是哪一種公式？是要透過修法還是……"],["阮次長清華：我們……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我給你一個建議啦！我在院會質詢時也一直講，可以依照現在既有的財政收支劃分法公式做二次分配啊！就做二次分配嘛！要是二次分配還有餘額，就做第三次分配嘛！這樣不是很單純嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是如果沒有修法之前，因為明文規定……"],["林委員思銘：就是因為沒有規定，那就比照這種方式，也就是依照原來法律規定的精神去做再次分配嘛！"],["阮次長清華：不，我不是說沒有規定，而是法律明文規定了分子。以離島來講，理論上，在分配的時候，分母應該是3個離島，分子應該是以3個離島來算嘛！但是目前的條文怎麼規定呢？就是分子仍用3個離島，可是分母用全國22個縣市來算，所以當然分不出去。"],["林委員思銘：次長，雖然財政部自己有一套看法，但我覺得我的建議比較單純啦！就是依照原來的公式、原來財政收支劃分法相關條文所定的權重比例再次分配，345億元可以分配完成啊！如果離島有問題的話，再研擬對離島要用什麼樣的方式予以補足嘛！這樣可不可行？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，如果可以做，我們早就做了啦！這筆錢我們中央也不會拿來用啦！我們會凍結在那邊，將來如果公式解決了……"],["林委員思銘：我還是希望能夠儘速解決這個問題啦！看看財政部如何修法把它解決，這是我的建議。"],["阮次長清華：是，了解。"],["林委員思銘：另外，昨天你們開會，關於這次修法，好像要針對地方自籌財源將營業額的權重從30%變成8%。次長，這樣的修正對於經濟貢獻度高的縣市來說，計算下來的統籌分配稅款比例會變少啊！這樣是不是變相懲罰經濟貢獻度高的縣市，比如新竹縣市？對於營業稅繳那麼多的縣市，卻把權重降低啊？"],["阮次長清華：要講清楚可能有點複雜，因為滿細的。我是覺得8%那部分……"],["主席：那就簡單扼要地講。"],["林委員思銘：我這樣講啦……"],["阮次長清華：還是我會後再跟委員解釋？"],["主席：好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我是建議啦！你也不用回答。本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣，長期以來，經濟貢獻度、所創造的稅收都列在全國前段班，所以財政部應該公平、合理地做分配機制，並協助地方政府提升其財政自主原則。所以我希望財政部在未來研擬的修法版本中，對於權重比例還是要慎重考量啦！"],["阮次長清華：我想我們的目標是一樣的。"],["主席：再另外回復啦！再給召委回復一下。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘召委。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席（林委員思銘）：報告委員會，現在繼續開會。","接下來請顏寬恒委員質詢。"],["顏委員寬恒：主席、各位列席官員、各位委員同事，大家好。主席，有請主計總處陳淑姿主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長早。主計總處在6月2日發函各縣市政府，徵詢修正中央對縣市政府補助辦法的意見。先不說內容是什麼，光是要求3天內回復這一點就非常誇張。立法院要求各部會提供資料或者是要求就這些政策內容到辦公室報告時，部會都沒有辦法在3天內回復。各部會沒辦法做到的事情，主計總處卻要求各縣市政府3天內就要給意見，其實根本就沒有打算徵詢縣市政府的意見啊！只是走形式、過場而已啦！這樣的時間安排完全不考慮地方政府實務面的運作情況、完全不顧地方政府的反應跟需求。主計長的回復是因為修法幅度不大，也沒有要求地方政府準時繳交意見，這讓我更加難以置信。影響層面這麼大，你卻說不用準時繳交意見，主計總處這樣草率行事，提倡東西可以不準時交、沒關係，也讓各縣市政府、尤其是財政困難的政府看到這一次一般性補助款的修正都措手不及。","中央對地方的補助款應該落實財政均衡、協助地方維持公共服務品質，但是我們看到在編列與分配上出現了嚴重的偏差跟不透明。裡面關鍵的權重設定、評估項目、指標計算方式等都由中央單方面決定，例如人口數、財政自給率、社會福利支出等指標，中央都可藉由資料統計來源玩數字遊戲、操縱結果，造成分配的落差。補助款對各縣市政府非常重要，因為涉及社福、教育、基礎建設、民生預算等，分配過程卻粗糙不堪。地方制度法第六十九條第三項規定中央對地方的補助須要明定項目、對象跟比例，過去補助規定也以附表方式呈現，明白列出補助事項，此次修法卻將兩個附表全部刪除，導致地方政府無法掌握中央補助會有哪些項目，也會影響預算籌編作業，預算歲入應該如何編列？編列不足的部分是不是要強迫地方政府舉債？本來應該公開、透明的政府機關卻由中央政府做起黑箱作業，各地方政府對於中央如何分配補助款一概未知。修正補助項目不再明列之後，該如何確保補助款分配的公平性與透明性？請主計長說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員報告，我們在6月2日徵詢地方意見，事實上是在8月14日才召開相關意見徵詢會議，依照以往的經驗，這段期間當中陸陸續續都可以提供意見，我們在8月14日召開相關意見徵詢會議的時候，也會把各地方陸陸續續提供的意見加以討論。另外，我們在8月25日有分配機制的說明，9月13日也邀請各縣市首長來參加補助交流的會議，9月17日又召開一場說明補助項目跟金額的說明會。","第二，如果是說附表取消這部分，還是有確定項目。我們新增一個附表，涵蓋一般性和計畫型。原來的附表一、二刪除，但我們還是新增了一個附表，涵蓋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框架是沒有的我們談是在前面談耶"},{"start":208.028,"end":214.253,"text":"阿為什麼要在後面內容上是完全無關我知道啦 但是你就是說我們談在什麼就是很讓人很嘔的地方啦阿我們就照著該講阿而且台美關係不是很好嗎簡若磐石嗎阿怎麼會擺一擺擺到後面去了談判也有彼此的堅持阿還是要有時間阿因為我們也有我們的堅持我們有堅持嗎我們都學不放阿"},{"start":236.229,"end":239.738,"text":"我們能夠談到你剛剛講的不叠加如果確定可以談到15%嗎"},{"start":241.812,"end":268.942,"text":"努力啦 努力的方向不是 確定啊 是不是確定不是 這個是我們努力的方向你剛剛確定喔你剛剛確定喔 這個是我們努力的方向我們努力的方向 對但是要付出什麼代價蕭美錦副總統是講啦代價就是我們整個晶片的supply chain都過去啦對不對 從上面的design到晶圓代工到整個封裝 伺服器 通通過去啦一邊這樣子"},{"start":270.462,"end":282.671,"text":"台灣半導體的生態系還是會留在台灣 而且還會壯大你知道這樣一來的話有幾家廠要去 你知道嗎沒有 台灣的半導體的生態系你跟我講 因為我時間不要佔用後面的時間有幾家廠要過去 有幾家沒有 我們知道的就是說他會去投資美國並不表示要搬過去 不是這樣的意思"},{"start":293.223,"end":315.379,"text":"投資這某程度 你是程度差別而已啦因為台灣也會壯大啊 台灣壯大除了台積電供現金有超過一兆以上很多的supply chain沒有啊 包括比如說封裝廠它有這麼多現金嗎伺服器的代工廠有這麼多現金嗎它整個都是supply chain的一環"},{"start":316.58,"end":328.529,"text":"他還沒有這麼多錢啊可以說我在台灣一個在美國一個他整個來講不要忘了如果這些補那麼多過去的話我看到的是什麼台灣的年輕人下一代我們下下代"},{"start":330.697,"end":352.316,"text":"他們的工作機會會大幅減少我看到的是這個東西現在台灣的高科技產業是缺人才所以還缺很多所以我們需要更多的人才所以只要你一直沒有回答我就告訴你整個supply chain是數百家到上千家的supply chain整個我們看到的是都過去我不相信說"},{"start":353.777,"end":370.229,"text":"我們所有的數百家上千家都可以說台灣一個廠美國一個廠沒有上千家啦我不相信沒有這麼厲害啦除了台積電幾個幾個很大的廠所以這個去美國投資如果這家公司不賺錢他就不會去啊"},{"start":371.03,"end":376.316,"text":"他為什麼要去 如果不賺錢我幹嘛去那邊公司阿我們副總統 一定會賺錢才會去我們副總統已經講了 都說要去的阿就這樣講阿所以他是跟國內跟國外的部長 那因為委員很關心你詳細再跟委員說明清楚謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請龔部長。"],["主席：我們再請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我只有兩個簡單的問題，第一個，賴總統說有好消息，應該就是講關稅有好消息。有兩件事情要確定一下，是不是關稅不再疊加、20%往下降？是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：方向上是這樣，對。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，而且是……"],["賴委員士葆：不疊加，然後往下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：那最多能降多少？我認為了不起跟韓國、日本一樣，降到15%，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為15%是最低的。"],["賴委員士葆：啊？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果是順差國，15%是最低的。"],["賴委員士葆：就降到15%嘛！所以最好的情況就是不疊加，降到15%。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是我們爭取，我們極力爭取。"],["賴委員士葆：這個確定嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們極力爭取。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我要強調的一點是，這個時間點，timing啊！我們從4月、5月開始談，哇！那時候說好了不起喔！臺灣是全世界前4個國家還5個國家能夠跟美國談關稅，結果一談談到現在，好幾個國家都已經確定了，我們一直沒有確定。","坊間有一種講法，媒體也一種講法，就是說在川習會會面之前，臺灣不會搞定，一定要之後才搞定，即便你現在講了什麼之類的，之後，等於我們還是在中美談判的框架裡面，我們還是被制約的。照理講，賴總統如果講這麼好的消息出來，趕快去搞定啦！這兩天就把它確定啦！對不對？結果現在看起來就是要等到APEC之後，等於是川習見了面以後，臺灣才搞定這個事情，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，的確是有這樣的說法，但是這個是時間上。"],["賴委員士葆：這個確定嗎？確定嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，這個是時間上有這樣的說法，就是說可能它比較優先，因為美中的貿易比較複雜而且量比較大，可能會先講。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們不複雜？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以時間上來講的話……"],["賴委員士葆：他們很複雜，我們不複雜？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，時間上來講的話，它可能會比較先來處理對中的事務，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：某種程度就是我們的重要性不如中國大陸，很清楚嘛！就這樣子啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，我們的半導體是全世界算最好的。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，那你只有一個半導體啊！其他的他希望要大陸的稀土，還有希望大陸買他的大豆，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["賴委員士葆：大陸的籌碼多，我們的籌碼少啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的籌碼就一個，就是晶片相關產業。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，但是報告委員，我們跟美國人談的部分，您所謂的框架沒有在中國的框架之下。"],["賴委員士葆：事實就如此啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：這完全不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才也同意了，就說在它後面啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，那個是時間的關係。"],["賴委員士葆：時間，對啊！在它後面啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：但是談判的內容，框架是沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：我們是在前面談耶！為什麼要在後面？"],["龔部長明鑫：內容上是完全無關。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！就是說我們談，再怎麼樣……這是讓人很嘔的地方啦！我們很早就跟他談了，而且臺美關係不是很好嗎？堅若磐石嗎？怎麼會擺一擺，擺到後面去了？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，談判也有彼此的堅持，還是要有時間啦！因為我們也有我們的堅持。"],["賴委員士葆：我們有堅持嗎？我們都全部放啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們很堅持。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們能夠談到你剛剛講的不疊加，確定可以談到15%嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：努力啦！努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，確定啦！是不是確定？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，這個是我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛有確定喔！"],["龔部長明鑫：這個是我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：大家要付出什麼代價？蕭美琴副總統就講了，代價就是我們整個晶片的supply chain都過去了，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：從上面的design到晶圓代工、整個封裝、伺服器統統過去啦！就變成這樣子。"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，臺灣半導體的生態系還是會留在臺灣，而且還會壯大。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣一來的話，有幾家廠要去，你知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，臺灣的半導體生態鏈……"],["賴委員士葆：不，你跟我講，因為我不要占用後面的時間。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：有幾家廠要過去？有幾家？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我們知道的就是它會去投資美國並不表示要搬過去，不是這樣的意思。"],["賴委員士葆：投資，這某種程度，你只是程度差別而已啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，因為它臺灣也會壯大啊！臺灣壯大以後……"],["賴委員士葆：除了台積電的現金有超過1兆以上，很多的supply chain沒有啊！比如說封裝廠有這麼多現金嗎？伺服器的代工廠有這麼多現金嗎？它整個就是supply chain的一環，它也沒有這麼多錢，可以說我在臺灣一個、在美國一個。不要忘了喔！如果有那麼多過去的話，我看到的是什麼？臺灣的年輕人，下一代、下下代的工作機會會大幅減少，我看到的是這個東西。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在臺灣的高科技產業是缺人才，還缺很多，我們需要更多的人才，所以只要臺灣的……"],["賴委員士葆：你一直沒有回答，我就告訴你，是數百家到上千家的整個supply chain，我們看到的是整個都過去，我不相信數百家、上千家都可以說臺灣一個廠、美國一個廠，我不相信。"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有上千家。"],["賴委員士葆：我不相信，沒有這麼厲害啦！除了台積電幾個很大的廠有這個實力。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以去美國投資，如果這家公司不賺錢，它就不會去啊！它為什麼要去？如果不賺錢，我幹嘛去那邊投資？一定會賺錢才會去。"],["賴委員士葆：我們副總統已經講了，都說要去啦！他都這麼說了，好啦！時間……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以它是跟國內、國外的供應鏈連結。"],["主席：部長，因為委員也很關心，你再詳細跟委員說明清楚。"],["龔部長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王育敏委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":20.085,"end":42.976,"text":"部長美國已經在8月7號已經宣布對台灣實施20%的暫行稅率那剛剛有聽到好消息說會有更好的消息那更好的消息應該就是降低這個稅率跟讓我們疊加稅率也能夠得到豁免對不對那美國其實對等關稅對台灣的這個政策而言"},{"start":44.457,"end":66.236,"text":"看到的是有兩個含義第一個就是希望消除了對台灣的貿易的逆差第二個就是對台灣半導體供應鏈能夠擴大到美國去投資除了可以給美國人就業的空間跟經濟的產值最關鍵的還是美國希望能夠掌握半導體晶片跟產能的關鍵技術對不對"},{"start":68.317,"end":97.319,"text":"那在最近美国的商务部的部长这个卢特尼克他有提出来台美晶片制造五五分这件事情我们当场我们也是已经拒绝了但是我们担心说我们在拒绝当下他会不会对我们产生就是有更多的威胁跟让我们的这个在谈判当中会不会就在试探"},{"start":97.699,"end":125.369,"text":"我們的底線或者是說看到底我們會不會同意這問題嗎報告委員美國他的想法當然是高階晶片他自己需要的部分某一部分可以在美國生產這是他的想法但是對我們來講的話我們最先進的半導體的技術要留在台灣最大的產能也會留在台灣因為我們供應不只是美國我們供應給全世界所以這個先進製程的這個產線"},{"start":127.29,"end":149.257,"text":"我们会比美国多得非常多是所以部长台湾在半导体领域里面是我们这地位是在国际上占有一席之地尤其是二奈米的先进制程我们将近有九成对不对是九成在国际的市占率所以这也就是我们台湾要建构成这个细钝最重要的一环所以要请"},{"start":150.037,"end":160.245,"text":"部長在這邊一定要堅守著我們的核心產業的技術絕對不能妥協這個五五分晶片的問題接下來的話就是美國目前它對中國大陸課徵了55%的對等關稅"},{"start":168.611,"end":175.794,"text":"是算是全球最高它是為了要報復美國的這關稅的壓力大陸最近也提出來了在12月要擴大稀土礦物的這個出口的管制那連續在這個這4月以來大概有兩波了"},{"start":185.618,"end":207.25,"text":"那我們看到在我們的晶片方面 在稀土方面你們說這個應該是不會在這個項目裡面是不同項目啦 對不對但是我們擔心的就是無人機的部分無人機他們所需要的這個成分的話剛好就是大陸正在限制這個項目是混合的對不對"},{"start":208.471,"end":234.642,"text":"是 不過這一個部分因為全世界都已經開始提它的替代方案所以我們有提出替代方案嗎因為我們是間接需求所以我們要跟國際的供應鏈間接需求還是有需求如果沒有這個材料我們還是有困難所以我們要跟國際供應鏈他們的步調一致所以在這方面的話我們有沒有做重新的調整有 就是說怎麼樣配合國際供應鏈的調整"},{"start":237.404,"end":245.391,"text":"他們因應做法我們會來配合那第二個就是說我們自己我們自己可能要保有我們自己需求一部分我們國內的"},{"start":247.578,"end":259.492,"text":"這個自己自足量我們自己開始有這樣利用回收的部分利用回收所以是工研院還有針對這個廢棄的那個電器的話做精煉的提煉來供應我們的產業的需求這個技術已經成熟了啦這樣子的提煉產量就夠嗎"},{"start":267.902,"end":295.245,"text":"它现在是公斤级现在要转给这个企业界企业界他们量可以做得比较大做更大所以在这方面我们要请这部长一定要重视这个无人机的这个问题该做适当的调整我们还是要做适当的调整才不会影响这个产业的发展好不好无人机整个产业链的发展那接下来跟部长所提的就是汽车是美国最有非常重要的工业品项他特别也提到我们的"},{"start":296.366,"end":316.805,"text":"進口關稅我們雙方在交涉當中希望能夠調降目前的進口關稅是大概在17.5%那有沒有可能會在美國進口關稅上調整為零關稅個別項目這個我就不是那麼清楚了已經有在談了"},{"start":318.568,"end":347.233,"text":"經濟部長不清楚對 它是一個談判的項目沒有錯但是個別項目的部分這個就比較不為什麼會這樣講呢因為中華賓士他們特別有在提到如果說零關稅的話對他們一些其他進口車包括歐系的中華賓士就是歐系的還有日系還有韓系的車子他們都影響非常非常的大那如果說有這種情形發生的話那其他各國可能會"},{"start":347.853,"end":364.836,"text":"像我們世界貿易組織這個WTO來控告我們違反了貿易自由的所以會這樣發生那部長你對這個看法怎麼說因為美國的關稅跟各國都在談判然後有個別有個別的不一樣那如果說"},{"start":366.178,"end":390.783,"text":"台灣如果這樣要因此而被告的話那所有的國家都會被告會這樣子提部長你沒有發現最重要問題如果美國的進口車是零關稅大家就經過美國然後再進來台灣要洗產地的方式進來就會影響整個不行就是說你如果要算是美國製的話他有一定的比例他的附加價值至少要35%以上他在美國社廠從美國那邊進來啊"},{"start":393.163,"end":409.1,"text":"它要在美国制造啊是啊在美国制造就算是美国车没有错在台湾制造就是台湾车部长还有最重要的你知道说我们台湾的车子在我们台湾组装的进口车在台湾组装的产业大不大"},{"start":409.801,"end":423.524,"text":"你知道嗎不曉得所以關於這個部分將近有30萬的汽車跟我們的零件組織的供應鏈從業人員我們將近30萬就是包括零組件對零組件所以都在我們這邊如果你從不從美國設廠從美國進來西產地進來那我們30萬的從業人員"},{"start":430.046,"end":443.088,"text":"那怎麼辦呢不會讓他洗產地啦所以你要嚴格把關你有什麼做法海關本來就會他要因為他就是我們跟美國談判美國人也"},{"start":444.093,"end":468.683,"text":"也不允許我們洗產地所以這是對等的所以部長一定要確保市場的公平跟國內產業的生存空間我們可以的做法就是說在原產地品牌的認證做一個配套是不是品牌的認證好不好這點要嚴格把關保護我們的產業就是確認它是不是美製的好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請龔部長。"],["主席：再請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，美國在8月7日已經宣布對臺灣實施20%的暫行稅率，剛剛有聽到，說會有更好的消息，更好的消息應該就是降低這個稅率，以及讓我們的疊加稅率也能夠得到豁免，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：其實以美國對臺灣對等關稅的這個政策而言，我們看到的是有兩個含意：第一個就是希望消除對臺灣的貿易逆差；第二個就是希望臺灣半導體供應鏈能夠擴大到美國去投資，除了可以給美國人就業的空間和經濟的產值，最關鍵的還是美國希望能夠掌握半導體晶片的產能和關鍵技術，對不對？","最近美國商務部部長Lutnick有提出臺美晶片製造產能五五分，這件事情我們也已經當場拒絕了，但是我們擔心在我們拒絕當下，他會不會在這個談判當中對我們產生更多的威脅？會不會是在試探我們的底線、看到底我們會不會同意這種問題？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，美國的想法當然是他自己需要的高階晶片，某一部分可以在美國生產，這是他的想法，但是對我們來講的話，我們最先進的半導體技術要留在臺灣……"],["呂委員玉玲：那當然。"],["龔部長明鑫：最大的產能也會留在臺灣，因為我們供應的不只是美國而已，我們供應給全世界……"],["呂委員玉玲：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以這個先進製程的產線我們會比美國多得非常多……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，部長，臺灣在半導體領域裡面的地位在國際上占有一席之地，尤其是2奈米的先進製程，我們將近有九成，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：在國際的市占率，這也就是我們臺灣建構矽盾最重要的一環，所以請部長一定要堅守我們的核心產業技術，絕對不能妥協……"],["龔部長明鑫：一定。"],["呂委員玉玲：關於這個五五分晶片製造產能的問題，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。接下來，目前美國對中國大陸課徵了55%的對等關稅，這算是全球最高，為了要報復美國的關稅壓力，大陸最近也提出來在12月要擴大稀土礦物出口的管制，自4月以來這大概連續有兩波了。我們看到，在我們的晶片方面，你們說我們需要的稀土部分不在這個項目裡面，是不同項目，對不對？但是我們擔心的是無人機的部分，無人機需要的成分剛好就是大陸正在限制的項目，是吻合的，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，不過這一個部分全世界都已經開始提它的替代方案，像……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們有提出替代方案嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為我們是間接需求，所以我們要看跟國際的供應鏈怎麼樣來一致……"],["呂委員玉玲：間接需求還是有需求，如果沒有這個材料，我們還是有困難，尤其我們最重要的無人機……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，沒有錯，所以我們要跟國際供應鏈的步調一致。"],["呂委員玉玲：在這個方面我們有沒有重新調整？"],["龔部長明鑫：有，就是怎麼樣配合國際供應鏈的調整，他們的因應作法，我們會來配合；第二個就是我們自己可能也要保有我們自己需求的國內自給自足量，我們自己開始有這樣利用回收的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：利用回收，所以工研院有針對廢棄電器精煉的提煉，來供應我們產業的需求。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，它會技轉給……"],["呂委員玉玲：這個技術已經成熟了啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：不過它現在是公斤級。"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣提煉的產量就夠嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：它現在是公斤級而已，要再轉給企業界，企業界的量可以做得比較大。"],["呂委員玉玲：做更大，所以我們也請部長一定要重視無人機這個問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：該做適當的調整，我們還是要做適當的調整，才不會影響產業的發展，好不好？無人機整個產業鏈的發展。"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來要跟部長提的是，汽車是美國非常重要的工業品項，他也特別提到我們的進口關稅，雙方在交涉當中希望能夠調降，目前的進口關稅大概在17.5%，有沒有可能在美國的進口關稅上調整為零關稅？"],["龔部長明鑫：個別項目我就不是那麼清楚了。"],["呂委員玉玲：已經有在談了，經濟部長不清楚？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，它是一個談判的項目沒有錯，但是個別項目的部分，這個就比較不好說。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，為什麼我會這樣講呢？因為中華賓士有特別提到，如果零關稅的話，對其他的進口車包括歐系的，中華賓士就是歐系的，還有日系、韓系的車子都會影響非常非常地大。如果有這種情形發生的話，其他各國可能會向世界貿易組織（WTO）控告我們違反了貿易自由，會有這樣的情況發生。部長，你對這個看法怎麼說？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為美國的關稅跟各國都在談判，個別有個別的不一樣，如果臺灣因此而被告的話，那所有的國家都會被告，因為其他的國家……"],["呂委員玉玲：會這樣子提，部長，你沒有發現最重要的問題，如果美國的進口車是零關稅，大家就經過美國再進來臺灣，這樣洗產地的方式進來，就會影響整個……"],["龔部長明鑫：不行！如果要算是美國製的話，它要有一定的比例，它的附加價值至少要35%以上才可以。"],["呂委員玉玲：它在美國設廠，從美國那邊進來啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，它要在美國製造啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：是啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：在美國製造就算是美國車，沒有錯啊！在臺灣製造就是臺灣車。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，還有最重要的，你知道進口車在臺灣組裝的車子產業大不大？你知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：不小。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以關於這個部分，將近有30萬的汽車跟我們零件組織的供應鏈……"],["龔部長明鑫：零組件。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們有將近30萬從業人員。"],["龔部長明鑫：包括零組件。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，零組件，所以都在我們這邊嘛！如果你全部在美國設廠，從美國洗產地進來，那我們30萬的從業人員怎麼辦呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會讓它洗產地，這個是規定。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要嚴格把關，你有什麼做法？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：你有什麼做法？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為海關本來就要……就是我們跟美國談判，美國人也不允許我們洗產地，所以這是對等的啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長，一定要確保市場的公平跟國內產業的生存空間，我們可以的做法就是在原產地品牌的認證做一個配套，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：品牌的認證，這點要嚴格把關，保護我們的產業，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會把關，確認它是不是美製的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請複密書長好 有請王複密好 委員早好第一個新聞時事先跟複密書長請教上個禮拜中華民國法官協會派了六位代表出席亞賽拜然舉行的國際法官協會的年會結果呢 這六位代表"},{"start":30.299,"end":57.21,"text":"好像沒有獲得簽證也沒有相關入境的許可那可是呢明明啊國際法官協會的主辦單位有明確的承諾說會協助辦理簽證還有入境的事宜為什麼他們要這樣承諾呢因為一貫的倡導叫做包容與平等原則可是好像我看新聞最後還是沒有辦法入境就是如同這個新聞畫面所說的那你們說表示遺憾要不要說一下後續的處理跟後續的對話"},{"start":58.766,"end":75.793,"text":"可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續有什麼處理的方法跟原則或者是後續我們如何持續精進跟國際像這樣子的看起來是一種非正式的外交但是非常重要的軟性外交你們這邊有沒有什麼態度跟後續的委員我請廳長來說好謝謝"},{"start":82.848,"end":100.582,"text":"首先必须要说明因为法官协会它是一个等于是一个民间的团体所以我想这个部分就我的了解法官协会已经有向国际法官协会去提出了一个相关的抗议有透过其他的国家的代表提出来"},{"start":100.862,"end":129.202,"text":"那我也理解就之前类似女法官协会也有相类似的情形的时候那国际女法官协会就有给这个协会一个年费的免除跟让女法官协会的会员可以在其他场合透过视讯的方式来国际发声所以这部分我们也会建议就是法官协会是不是也要持续的向这个国际法官协会来做这样子一个意见的表达那就我昨天的"},{"start":130.123,"end":145.522,"text":"這個檢索法 那國際法官協會現在是還沒有任何的聲明出來那我們會持續的來關注這件事情好 我覺得這個部分確實要一起持續關心尤其是在新的國民黨主席出爐之後為什麼我要這麼說因為亞塞拜人一向"},{"start":145.982,"end":172.448,"text":"被認為是比較親中親惡的國家如果在國際的這種互動的情勢上我們連這麼軟性的民間組織的交流都要被阻擋我們真的覺得很可惜所以當然今天司法法是不見得跟這個主席有關但是我要公開呼籲我希望所有在野黨的委員還有在野黨的主席要一起關心這個事情接下來我想要問一下下一個題目就是剛剛早上聽說有一個委員Kip Hooput"},{"start":173.268,"end":194.396,"text":"非常生氣說呢他要追究政治責任我們來看一下為什麼他要追究政治責任呢是關於他們之前修了法庭直播的問題但是呢我在這裡要公開的感謝司法院你們目前提出來的法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法我認為你們大大的拯救了台灣的人權危機"},{"start":195.596,"end":219.269,"text":"但是也因為這個辦法呢讓這個委員keep put我可不可以問一下目前這個已經經過了預告而且預告期已經結束應該已經上路開始實施了對嗎好開始實施那可不可以請你們簡單說明一下你們所做的調整應該是說根據這個立法之後你們所訂的這些策略跟辦法如何可以避免我剛說的台灣人權侵害的進一步的危機來請說明一下謝謝委員"},{"start":221.63,"end":234.799,"text":"因為首先就是說在法院組織法它規定的是公播它從來就沒有規定是直播那有關於立法形成過程當時在黨團協商的時候提案黨團委員"},{"start":241.323,"end":270.382,"text":"在這個在這個協商過程中呢他也說呢就是公播有Live就是所謂的直播還有Delay Live他說我們所講的公開播送什麼時候有說要用Live啊沒有Live啊你可以用那個Delay Live去處理啊這是首先我們就是回溯就是當時那個就是在修法過程中協商的時候有人說的協商的時候就是就已經而且是提案的那個提案的那個黨的委員"},{"start":271.643,"end":297.157,"text":"提案黨團的那個委員就是已經明白說這並不是要求要那個直播那另外我們從那個法組法90條第6項所通過的那個修法他規定說訴訟程序參與的人呢他可以申請把他的錄音跟錄影變聲變相然後就是把他去那個識別化那如果說是要這樣這麼做的話他唯一的當然不可能是直播"},{"start":297.737,"end":326.891,"text":"因為你不可能就是說在直播當那個一邊在播的時候一邊我們怎麼去把他給去那個識別化因為去識別化有時候是講話那個脈絡之間他沒辦法就立刻一個像講那個什麼有就講什麼髒話這樣逼這樣子那個處理的那另外我們在講就是立法議職就是說公佈他的那個目的呢他是要促進民眾他可以了解那個開庭的那個內容可是我想公佈的目的從來都不是要透過就是"},{"start":328.932,"end":347.145,"text":"輿論來公審來造成那個壓力就是影響到那個判決結果反而這個是我們要那個避免的那所以我們來回溯就是說那個立法的目的呢你不管在什麼時候播直播或者說之後播我們畢竟都是播出了他已經可以符合那個目的讓民眾可以了解"},{"start":347.685,"end":372.736,"text":"整個審理過程那也可以去檢視說這個判決他那個理由的那個行程這都可以大家公開來那個檢驗那所以就是說延後播出呢他是完全沒有違反那個法庭那個公播的那個目的的好來謝謝你剛引用了這個羅志強委員但是你很客氣你不敢你不好意思說是羅志強委員我來跟大家報告當時在協商的時候羅志強委員自己就公開的說"},{"start":373.396,"end":391.101,"text":"他說我們沒有說要直播啊公開播送有兩種啊一種叫做直接的直播另外一種叫延遲直播他自己還把這個延遲直播講的這個好像一副很有正當性喔所以我說謝謝你們的調整因為你們在這個委員的論述基礎上你們做了"},{"start":391.761,"end":412.378,"text":"这个调整让我认为后续不会有人权危机怎么说因为之前检察官协会民间团体也有说到法院组织法当时的草案里面对于公开播送的范围跟定义讲得不清不楚的所以蓝白自己修了这个莫名其妙的法但是自己又讲不清楚所以才会出现刚刚"},{"start":413.098,"end":437.43,"text":"罗志强委员所说的那些事情那确实如果按照刚刚副秘书长你们的说法你们在确实相关办法的调整跟设定上是根据这个罗志强委员当时在党团协商所说的所以呢一去识别化二延迟时间也就是说录影后我们做了一些去识别化之后再让人可以去申请看这个影片对不对"},{"start":439.448,"end":467.339,"text":"好要看的話是不用申請那我很想請問剛剛早上有一個委員說要對您追究政治責任這會有什麼政治責任好沒關係謝謝委員那個我也很想知道好我們來看一下我認為會有什麼政治責任來幾個問題我們幫你們一起看一下第一個我要再次說降低人權侵害的可能性所以我們必須要做這樣的調整例如說你們說以適當方式實施公開播送在法學上"},{"start":468.599,"end":489.306,"text":"含不含你刚刚说的判决后公开我们的见解是其实应该含在里面那刚刚您的说明也很清楚我们直接看第二个判决后公开播送可不可以帮助达到所谓原本的立法目的的说明他们说他们一直说要让阳光照进法院要让法院审理更加公开透明但是明明现在"},{"start":490.246,"end":511.895,"text":"黃國昌自己都可以到北檢黃國昌自己都可以去參加柯文哲這個會議所以我認為這個公開透明早就有了但是他們一直強加說沒有第三個我們也要問如何確保判決後公開播送是訴訟當時的原始影像這個可能是黃國昌委員他會很在意的我們如何確保這個部分你們有沒有相關做法"},{"start":512.614,"end":539.149,"text":"因為可能會有人擔心他的影像被造假啦他的影像被你們後續加工啦他們可能對你們司法院沒有信任啊你們怎麼回應這個提問假設有人提出這樣的問題就是我們在鎖定的這一個實施辦法第十條第一項呢他就有明白規定就是說所謂的公開播送是完整播送為原則齁那除非是說像剛剛法組法九十一條第六項規定的要變身"},{"start":540.469,"end":554.956,"text":"變相的這種情形的時候或者說有涉及那個個資洩漏的情形那這個部分可能就是還是要那個依規定就是要遮蔽聲音或是影像好所以假設後續原則上都是要那個完整播送"},{"start":555.356,"end":573.322,"text":"假設後續有當事人他認為說我想要主張那個影片在你被你們去識別化的變身啦或者是用一個馬賽克把他的頭遮起來如果他要主張說這個不是我當時的影片你們到時候會有設計相關的救濟或者是勘驗機制嗎我請那個廳長好請說"},{"start":579.265,"end":601.93,"text":"這個部分我想如果當事人有提出這樣的質疑法官是可以依職權來判認定這個是不是要進行影片的勘驗如果涉及到個案的公平性的問題所以其實你們已經準備得很充分了所以我要再次公開忽悠我希望在野黨的委員在相關修法完成之後司法院已經做了非常完善的配套措施跟相關的實施辦法"},{"start":602.89,"end":624.794,"text":"我認為已經阻擋了之前藍白黨團委員們亂修法所帶來的傷害我希望在黨委員要繼續支持這個公害實行的辦法不要讓人民一直覺得藍白在製造問題但是卻要一直讓行政機關來協助解決這些問題就如同之前80歲免巴士量表是勞動部做了非常多的努力"},{"start":625.294,"end":641.92,"text":"最後一點點時間我想要問一下關於司法少年安置的問題我知道你們一直有在跟衛福部跨部會溝通我時間有限我是不是就請您可不可以後續提供給我們辦公室相關的會議記錄跟會議資料是在可公開的程度底下因為確實現在有很多"},{"start":642.98,"end":663.077,"text":"判決這些孩子們到底要到矯正學校去還是要到安置機構去因為有很多安置機構其實越來越不敢收司法少年但我們也可以理解安置機構老師們跟社工們的困境但是在這件事情上我認為司法部司法院跟衛福部應該會有很多的溝通需要持續進行來協助這些司法少年可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":668.109,"end":686.6,"text":"謝謝委員目前跟衛福部的部分我們確實是陸續一直開相關的這個安置相關的一個整合會議那剛剛委員說的相關會議的記錄可不可以提供這是我們可以整理的整理完提供再來就是我們現在有四大措施簡單報告"},{"start":687.961,"end":696.37,"text":"那第一個部分就是沒關係 我們就不耽誤其他委員時間相關措施再整理資料程給我們好不好我們辦公室會出一個所資 好嗎我不耽誤其他委員時間喔謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時48分）好，謝謝主席。有請副秘書長。"],["主席：有請王副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：第一個新聞時事是先跟副秘書長請教，上個禮拜中華民國法官協會派了六位代表出席亞塞拜然舉行的國際法官協會的年會，結果這六位代表好像沒有獲得簽證，也沒有相關入境的許可，可是明明國際法官協會的主辦單位有明確承諾說會協助辦理簽證還有入境事宜，為什麼他們要這樣承諾呢？因為一貫的倡導叫做「包容與平等原則」，可是我看新聞，好像最後還是沒有辦法入境，如同新聞畫面所說的，你們說表示遺憾，要不要說一下後續的處理和後續的對話？可不可以請你們說明一下後續有什麼處理的方法和原則？或者是後續我們如何持續精進跟國際像這樣子看起來是一種非正式的外交，但卻是非常重要的軟性外交？你們這邊有沒有什麼態度跟後續的……"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，我請廳長來說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["吳廳長祚丞：謝謝委員垂詢這個問題，首先必須要說明，因為法官協會是一個民間團體，這個部分就我的了解，法官協會已經有向國際法官協會提出了一個相關的抗議，有透過其他國家的代表提出來，我也理解之前女法官協會也有相類似的情形，國際女法官協會就有給這個協會做年費的免除，以及讓女法官協會的會員可以在其他場合透過視訊的方式在國際發聲，所以這部分我們也會建議法官協會是不是也要持續的向國際法官協會來做這樣子的意見表達。就我昨天的檢索，國際法官協會現在還沒有任何的聲明出來，我們會持續的來關注這件事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得這確實要一起持續關心，尤其是在新的國民黨主席出爐之後。為什麼我要這麼說？因為亞塞拜然一向被認為是比較親中、親俄的國家，如果在國際的互動情勢上，我們連這麼軟性的民間組織交流都要被阻擋，我們真的覺得很可惜，當然今天司法及法制委員會不見得跟這個主席有關，但是我要公開呼籲，我希望所有在野黨的委員還有在野黨的主席要一起關心這個事情。","接下來我想要問下一個題目，剛剛早上聽說有一個委員氣呼呼、非常生氣的說他要追究政治責任，我們來看一下，為什麼他要追究政治責任呢？是關於他們之前修了法庭直播的問題，但是我在這裡要公開的感謝司法院，你們目前提出來的法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法，我認為你們大大的拯救了臺灣的人權危機，但也因為這個辦法讓這個委員氣呼呼的，我可不可以問一下，目前這個已經經過了預告，而且預告期已經結束，應該已經上路開始實施了，對嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，開始實施了，可不可以請你們簡單說明一下你們所做的調整？應該是說，根據這個立法之後，你們所訂的策略跟辦法如何可以避免我剛剛說的臺灣人權侵害的進一步危機？來，請說明一下。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，首先這個修法在法院組織法裡規定的是公播，從來就沒有規定直播。關於這個立法形成過程，當時在黨團協商的時候，提案黨團的委員在協商過程中也說，公播有live，也就是所謂的直播還有delay live。他說：我們所講的公開播送什麼時候有說要用live？沒有live啊！可以用delay live去處理。這是我們先回溯當時在修法過程中……"],["陳委員培瑜：協商時有人說的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：協商的時候就已經……而且提案黨團的委員已經明白說這並不是要求直播。另外，我們從法組法第九十條第六項所通過的修法，規定訴訟程序參與的人可以聲請把他的錄音、錄影變聲、變像，把他去識別化，如果要這麼做的話，那當然不可能是直播，因為不可能在直播當下，一邊在播、一邊把他去識別化，因為去識別化有時候是講話的脈絡之間，沒辦法立刻像講髒話一樣「嗶」的一聲處理。此外，我們講到立法意旨，公播的目的是要促進民眾可以了解開庭的內容，可是我想公播的目的從來都不是要透過輿論來公審，造成壓力而影響到判決結果，這反而是我們要避免的。所以我們回溯立法目的，不管是什麼時候播，直播或者之後播，畢竟都是播出了，也已經可以符合那個目的，讓民眾可以了解整個審理過程，可以去檢視判決理由的形成，這都可以讓大家公開檢驗，所以延後播出是完全沒有違反法庭公播的目的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝你剛剛引用了羅智強委員的說法，但是你很客氣，你不敢、不好意思說是羅智強委員。我來跟大家報告，當時在協商的時候，羅智強委員自己就公開地說「我們沒有說要直播啊！公開播送有兩種，一種叫做直接的直播，另外一種叫延遲直播」，他自己還把延遲直播講得好像是很有正當性。所以我說謝謝你們的調整，因為在這個委員的論述基礎上，你們做了調整，讓我認為後續不會有人權危機，怎麼說？因為之前檢察官協會、民間團體也說法院組織法當時的草案裡，對於公開播送的範圍跟定義講得不清不楚，所以藍、白自己修了這個莫名其妙的法，但是又講不清楚，才會出現剛剛羅智強委員所說的那些事情。如果按照剛剛副秘書長的說法，你們確實在相關辦法的調整跟設定上，是根據羅智強委員當時在黨團協商所說的，一、去識別化、二、延遲時間，也就是錄影後做了一些去識別化之後，再讓人可以申請看這個影片，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：要看的話是不用申請，因為已經上架了。"],["陳委員培瑜：請問早上有一個委員說要對您追究政治責任，這會有什麼政治責任？好，沒關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，我也很想知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下我認為會有什麼政治責任，幾個問題幫你們一起看一下。第一個，我要再次說降低人權侵害的可能性，所以必須要做這樣的調整，例如你們說以適當方式實施公開播送，在法學上含不含你剛剛說的判決後公開？我們的見解是其實應該含在裡面，剛剛您的說明也很清楚。第二個，判決後公開播送可不可以有助於達到原本的立法目的，他們一直說要讓陽光照進法院，要讓法院審理更加公開透明，但是明明現在黃國昌自己都可以到北檢，對不起，黃國昌自己都可以去參加柯文哲的會議，所以我認為「公開透明」早就有了，但是他們一直強加說沒有。第三個，我們也要問，如何確保判決後公開播送是訴訟當時的原始影像？這個可能是黃國昌委員會很在意的，如何確保這個部分，你們有沒有相關做法？因為可能會有人擔心影像被造假、影像被你們後續加工、他們可能對司法院沒有信任啊！你們怎麼回應這個提問？假設有人提出這樣的問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：在所定的實施辦法第十條第一項就有明白規定，所謂的公開播送是以完整播送為原則，除非是像剛剛法組法第九十條第六項規定要變聲、變像的情形，或者有涉及個資洩漏的情形，這個部分可能就還是要依規定遮蔽聲音或是影像……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以假設後續……"],["王副秘書長梅英：原則上都是要完整播送。"],["陳委員培瑜：假設後續有當事人主張在被你們去識別化變聲，或者是用馬賽克把他的頭遮起來的，不是當時的影片，你們到時候會設計相關的救濟或者是勘驗機制嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我請廳長說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，請說。"],["吳廳長祚丞：關於這個部分，若當事人有提出這樣的質疑，法官是可以依職權來認定是不是要進行影片的勘驗，如果涉及到個案的公平性問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實你們已經準備得很充分了嘛！所以我要再次公開呼籲，在相關修法完成之後，司法院已經做了非常完善的配套措施跟相關的實施辦法，我認為已經阻擋了之前藍、白黨團委員們亂修法所帶來的傷害，我希望在野黨委員要繼續支持這個公開實行的辦法，不要讓人民一直覺得藍、白在製造問題，但是卻一直要讓行政機關來協助解決這些問題，就如同之前80歲免巴氏量表是勞動部做了非常多的努力。","最後一點點時間，我想要問一下關於司法少年安置的問題，我知道你們一直在跟衛福部跨部會溝通，我時間有限，是不是請您後續提供給我們辦公室相關的會議紀錄跟會議資料？在可公開的程度下。現在確實有很多判決，而這些孩子們到底要到矯正學校去，還是要到安置機構去？因為有很多安置機構，其實越來越不敢收司法少年，我們也可以理解安置機構老師們跟社工們的困境，但是在這件事情上，我認為司法院跟衛福部應該會有很多需要持續進行的溝通，以協助這些司法少年，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：謝謝委員。目前我們跟衛福部確實是陸續一直在開安置相關的整合會議，剛剛委員說的，相關的會議紀錄可不可以提供？這部分我們可以整理後提供。"],["陳委員培瑜：好的。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：再來就是我們現在有四大措施，我簡單報告一下，第一個部分就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間。你們把相關措施整理後提供給我們，好不好？我們辦公室也會索資，好嗎？本席就不耽誤其他委員的時間了。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。本席先作會議程序預告：待會兒吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},{"id":"164556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da92c299f0ad7d5b6782630fd8ea06a53683c966d97180d5d26a34765b9d30d1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:37:27 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謝謝主席 我們請王副秘書長好 有請王副秘委員早好 剛剛有委員質詢有些東西你可能來不及講 現在讓你講你們那個司法院什麼開會的紀錄啊這個公開不公開這件事情在司法院裡頭的規定是什麼啊等一下我們請廳長"},{"start":37.584,"end":60.577,"text":"跟委員報告 其實是依照政府資訊公開法的規定那政府資訊應該要公開的應該是有關政府機關的部分應該是指合議制的機構的會議記錄應該要公開所以因為司法院本身它認為並不是一個合議制的機構所以在依照政府資訊公開法的規定它並沒有一定要公開的情況"},{"start":61.878,"end":85.515,"text":"至於司法院已經有將這個院會的會議的決議公開在網頁上那這跟目前行政院院會的公開決議的做法是一致的這是可以補充說就是有決議的部分在公開就決議的事項有加以公開那至於在會議中個別的發言的部分目前是沒有好 所以你們有把握你們現在做法沒有什麼問題"},{"start":94.014,"end":118.194,"text":"有沒有把握啦是有把握啦好因為大家五院互相尊重啦這個大家就是司法院到立法院到底要報告什麼這個誰來報告這個大家都不管是規定或者約定俗成這個我們就繼續做第二個剛剛也提到說這個我們現在一般民眾也會認為啊"},{"start":119.659,"end":146.47,"text":"奇怪 啊這個人可以交報 啊這個人讓他回去啊這個人給他修啊那這個人很可惡啊 為什麼讓他回家了啊這個人看起來就沒事啊 為什麼要把他要把他積壓啊為什麼這個人交保幾萬啊那個人交保為什麼幾萬啊站在司法院的角度啦個別法官他們做這些裁定"},{"start":148.09,"end":174.355,"text":"在司法院裡面現在有什麼機制啊去討論說這個事情在這個法官界他這個裁定怪怪就是有什麼樣的機制啊不管叫做補救啦 或者檢討啦 或者是什麼否則每次看到有人被生壓整群都在外面等 看電視好像在開獎一樣"},{"start":176.112,"end":202.044,"text":"人民對這件事 現在沒什麼反應 就說大膽的 膽子要不要說 喔 漂亮啦 聰明啦好啦 沒問題啦 跟你說沒問題 就是沒問題這個好像對司法的威信啦 大家都會有質疑呢站在你們司法院的角度啊你們有什麼樣的機制喔 可以讓人民可以認為說好啦 反正你們就守一個規定啦 法官都會照這樣來裁啦你們有什麼機制"},{"start":206.127,"end":222.766,"text":"謝謝委員其實因為羈押有一定的那個要件那就是說他設可是他很多事項就是說他還有涉及很多那個材料就是除了就是說罪名他會影響之外的話就是說他那些犯罪情節到底"},{"start":223.727,"end":243.068,"text":"重不重或者說現有那個證據到底是什麼那那個法官除了這些之外他還要考量說每個被告他那個資歷也都不相同那或者是說有些人就是說他跟國外的連結可能就比較多就是說也許小孩就在那個國外國外就是有資產所以可能會那個出去"},{"start":243.769,"end":263.906,"text":"那所以就是說法院他要裁量那個事情實在是很多就是實在是沒有辦法就是說我們一看這個案件就像剛剛那個就是質詢的有關於那個南京這個案件漏鳥俠他到底要不要那個羈押就是連我們手上沒有看到這個那個證據我們也不清楚說"},{"start":264.566,"end":292.962,"text":"他呈現的這些事實所涉及的罪名到底是重罪還是那個我知道這個我都懂就是說那我想這個部分呢就是要跟民眾多溝通啊就是說他不是一個法律感情覺得一個人漏鳥了而是說就是要跟民眾多溝通說法院到底是依據什麼樣那個事實然後來決定羈押跟不羈押對是站在司法院的角度啦就是社會總是覺得好像"},{"start":294.531,"end":316.258,"text":"好像好歹運啊好歹運就是說運氣好運氣不好我為什麼這樣講呢就是常常很多包括律師在評論說這個人被生壓了看起來啊壓定了或者是說最後沒有壓讓他交保了那大家想說啊應該進去什麼都說了啦大家會這樣講說阿記人就都說了啊就給交報啊就都說了啊什麼都經出來啊"},{"start":325.098,"end":333.071,"text":"然後呢 看起來也不會逃亡啊所以我看 搞不好啦待個這一個電子的監控啊應該是沒什麼問題社會還是會覺得好像要靠運氣"},{"start":340.031,"end":363.832,"text":"我知道你們的態度就是說法官要綜合很多的考量可是在司法院的角度就這樣就說要不然法官 個別法官或是合意之後決定說就讓他交保或是讓他羈押社會還是會覺得怪怪的你們世界各國都這樣嗎都靠法官 法官說我把你騙就是要把你騙沒有你搞不好就要把你騙 叫你回去 叫你回去"},{"start":365.1,"end":371.423,"text":"然後我們的司法院就是說在行政上我們也不會去討論這件事情還是怎麼樣我在講的是一個機制或是你們都直接放給法官去用"},{"start":380.656,"end":406.335,"text":"當然就是說有關於那個有關於那個羈押就是他的要件跟他那個裁量事項就是我們平常就是做那個平常培訓的時候這個當然就都會跟那個法官多溝通那另外就是說現在其實有很多法院他都有那個強制處分庭那強制處分庭就是有關於這些羈押偵查中羈押這些那個申請的他是集中"},{"start":407.336,"end":423.648,"text":"集中在幾個法官他們所做的那他們的標準就會比較趨於一致譬如說像申請搜索的時候那你是內部趨於一致譬如說台北一致台中一致那台北跟台中會不會一致"},{"start":425.029,"end":449.452,"text":"照理來說應該也會是這個標準不會差很多的好啦 我是建議你們這個在司法的行政上這件事情可能還要可以看什麼讓人民不會覺得說 哇 每次有人去送鴨怎麼大家幾個人都要看電視 都要等想說靠運氣 然後幾家歡樂 幾家醜有些人開心 有些人不開心"},{"start":450.475,"end":478.582,"text":"我覺得這樣對司法不好啦第二個 你們提到一個少年事件處理法要把這一個前科叫前案記錄 突銷的這一些事情我們現在很多詐騙集團就把這個年輕人怎麼說公關警你又年輕 你今年國中生嘛你去做車手 如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你領工出來也都沒事這個會跟你們現在這一次要提的這些修法"},{"start":480.021,"end":508.228,"text":"會有關嗎這個我請那個廳長來說謝謝委員的催省是有關過去升職在所有的學生 家長所有的社會復歸都是突銷現在要有條件的突銷就是要保持善良品性才可以突銷不是啦我是一個15歲的國中生啊我們長大的就叫我去捏錢嘛 當廁所嘛"},{"start":509.81,"end":515.916,"text":"我們就去念了嘛,我們老大跟我說你年輕的你去,你這樣的環境你現在的未成年啊,到現在都沒事情了他那個去用上課上課的,什麼關乎學校上課的都沒事情,幾年都沒事情,你就這樣了啊這些突銷,我現在看這些突銷會不會讓這些詐騙集團啊跟這些未成年的一起來說你們都不用高興啊,會嗎?"},{"start":535.583,"end":538.064,"text":"現在這一波我們送進來的修法我們也會廣為對社會教育 學校的教育跟各方面我們都會製作各項的...你不用教育啦 我是說詐騙集團會逮到這個機會說你看啊 你看他通過啦 不用緊張啦"},{"start":553.371,"end":557.034,"text":"這齁 你捏一捏就去上課上上的捏 對不對換個環境上課而已他要讓你20歲、25歲的時候紀錄都沒了 會這樣嗎不會 因為現在的修法就是你有一個處罰的紀錄 少年那麼輔導完畢這三年內 輔導完畢三年內必須沒有再任何觸犯法律"},{"start":578.13,"end":582.634,"text":"你15歲 進去 三年後17、15歲都沒紀錄了是不是這樣這個紀錄 原第一次的紀錄如果他三年輔導完畢三年內又再處罰 不會突銷不會 他就沒處罰了"},{"start":593.422,"end":597.843,"text":"如果都沒處罰會把它突銷 這是為了讓少年復歸社會就能成長對啦 我是說這款作用力就是詐騙集團就跟年輕人說人家的立法院就通過了 現在改了三年你就沒事啦 別怕啦 他也不會有顫抖啦你就去做 去念就對了啦"},{"start":612.83,"end":640.673,"text":"包括以前是所有少年的處罰紀錄三年滿都塗銷現在是你再處罰不塗銷又留著是這樣所以這個必須讓社會整個翻轉這個概念想法跟法治的一個更新我是說我最後就提醒說這樣的一個塗銷的這個規定恐怕讓這個詐騙集團的老大直接跟小朋友講說你不用擔心立法院就是會幫你們塗銷啦"},{"start":642.587,"end":659.753,"text":"這立法院都我們立的 連電視報說這年輕人怎麼15歲去當車手 20歲都沒問題因為立法院已經說好了 就給他取消這個有時候要點頭說就是說這件事情可能要特別去注意一下 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時37分）謝謝主席。我們請王副秘書長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請王副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["王委員義川：剛剛有委員質詢，有些東西你可能來不及講，現在讓你講。你們司法院的開會紀錄公開不公開，這件事情在司法院裡頭的規定是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我請廳長來說明。"],["吳廳長祚丞：跟委員報告，其實依照政府資訊公開法的規定，政府資訊應該要公開的是，有關政府機關的部分是指合議制機構的會議紀錄應該要公開。因為司法院本身並不是合議制的機構，所以依照政府資訊公開法的規定，並沒有一定要公開的情況。不過司法院已經有將院會會議的決議公開在網頁上，這跟目前行政院院會公開決議的做法是一致的。以上補充說明。"],["王委員義川：就是有決議的部分再公開？"],["吳廳長祚丞：就決議的事項有加以公開，至於在會議中個別發言的部分目前是沒有。"],["王委員義川：好，所以你們有把握你們現在的做法沒有什麼問題啦？","我是說有沒有把握啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：有把握啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["王委員義川：因為五院互相尊重，司法院到立法院到底要報告什麼？誰來報告？不管是規定或者是約定俗成，我們就繼續做。","第二個，剛剛也提到現在一般民眾也會認為：奇怪，這個怎麼能交保？這個怎麼讓他回去？這個怎麼會收押？這個人很可惡啊，為什麼讓他回家了？這個人看起來就沒事啊，為什麼要把他羈押？為什麼這個人交保幾萬？那個人交保又為什麼幾萬？站在司法院的角度，個別法官他們作這些裁定，你們現在有什麼機制去討論這個事情？比如在法官界認為如果這個裁定怪怪的，有什麼樣的機制，不管是補救或者檢討或者是什麼？否則每次看到有人被聲押，有整群人在外面等、看電視，好像在開講一樣，人民對這個事情有時候會不太滿意，那些人在那裡等，等到最後有人說：「漂亮啦！羈押啦！」或是「好啦！沒事情了，跟你說沒事就是沒事」，類似這些狀況好像對司法的威信，大家都會有所質疑，站在司法院的角度，你們有什麼樣的機制讓人民可以認為好啦，反正你們就是有一個規定，法官都會照這樣來裁定，你們有什麼機制？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，因為羈押有一定的要件，可是很多事項還有涉及很多裁量，除了罪名會影響之外，那些犯罪情節到底重不重或是現有的證據到底是什麼，法官除了這些之外，他還有考量每個被告的資力也都不相同，或者是有些人跟國外的連結可能比較多，也許小孩就在國外，國外就是有資產，可能會出去。所以法院要裁量的事情實在是很多，實在是沒有辦法一看到這個案件……就像剛剛質詢有關於南京三民站露鳥俠的這個案件，他到底要不要羈押，連我們手上沒有看到那個證據，我們也不清楚他呈現的這些事實所涉及的罪名到底是重罪還是輕罪……"],["王委員義川：我知道，這個我都懂，就是說……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想這個部分就是要跟民眾多溝通，它不是一個法律感情，覺得一個人露鳥了，而是要跟民眾多溝通法院到底是依據什麼樣的事實來決定羈押或不羈押。"],["王委員義川：可是站在司法院的角度……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：社會總是覺得好像是看好運或壞運，就是運氣好、運氣不好，我為什麼這樣講呢？常常很多包括律師在評論說這個人被聲押，看起來押定了，或者是最後沒有押，讓他交保了，大家就會認為應該進去什麼都說了啦，大家會這樣講，既然都講了，就讓他交保，反正都講了，什麼都逼出來了，看起來也不會逃亡，所以我看讓他交保好了，戴個電子監控，應該是沒什麼問題，社會還是會覺得好像要靠運氣。我知道你們的態度就是法官要綜合很多的考量，可是站在司法院的角度雖是這樣，認為不管是個別法官還是合議之後才決定讓他交保或者讓他羈押，但社會還是會覺得怪怪的，世界各國都是這樣嗎？都靠法官，法官說我要押你就是要押你，要給你交保就是給你交保，要叫你回去就叫你回去。我們的司法院在行政上也不會去討論這件事情還是怎麼樣？我在講的是一個機制，還是你們就直接交給法官去處理？"],["王副秘書長梅英：當然有關於羈押要件跟它的裁量事項，我們平常做培訓的時候，當然都會跟法官多溝通。另外，現在其實有很多法院都有強制處分庭，強制處分庭就是有關於偵查中羈押的聲請，它是集中在幾個法院、幾個法官他們所做的，他們的標準就會比較趨於一致，譬如像聲請搜索的時候……"],["王委員義川：對，那你是內部趨於一致嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["王委員義川：譬如臺北一致、臺中一致？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["王委員義川：臺北跟臺中會不會一致？"],["王副秘書長梅英：照理來說，應該也會是，這個標準不會差很多的。"],["王委員義川：好啦，我是建議你們在司法行政上這件事情可能還要看怎麼讓人民不會覺得每次如果有人可能被聲押，就有整群人在看電視、在那邊等，好像都是靠運氣，然後幾家歡樂幾家愁，有些人開心，有些人不開心，我覺得這樣對司法不好啦。","第二個，你們提到一個少年事件處理法要把前科、前案紀錄塗銷的這一件事情，我們現在很多詐騙集團就跟年輕人說：反正你還年輕，今年是國中生，去當車手如果怎樣了，改天出來也會沒事。這個跟你們現在這一次要提的這些修法會有關嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我請廳長來說明一下。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：謝謝委員的垂詢，是有關，過去深植在所有的學生、家長，認為所有的社會復歸都是塗銷，現在要有條件的塗銷，就是要保持善良品性才可以塗銷。"],["王委員義川：假設我是一個15歲的國中生，我的老大叫我去領錢、當車手，我就去領了，我老大跟我說：年輕人你去，領一領，反正你現在未成年，到時候都沒事，去觀護學校上個課都沒事，幾年之後都沒事，你就是大哥了。但我現在講的這些塗銷會不會讓這些詐騙集團直接跟未成年人說：你們都不用煩惱了。會嗎？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：現在這一波我們送進來的修法，我們也會廣為對社會教育、學校教育，跟各方面我們都會製作各項……"],["王委員義川：你不用教育啦，我是說詐騙集團剛好逮到這個機會說：你看，立法院通過了，不用緊張啦，你們領錢領一領就去上課而已，對不對？換個環境上課而已，以後你20歲、25歲的時候紀錄都沒了。會這樣嗎？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：不會，因為現在的修法就是少年有一個觸法的紀錄，輔導完畢三年內必須沒有再觸犯任何法律。"],["王委員義川：對，你們是15歲進去還要三年後，25歲都沒有紀錄了啊，不是這樣嗎？"],["鍾廳長宗霖：這個原第一次的紀錄如果他三年輔導完畢，三年內又再觸法，不會塗銷……"],["王委員義川：不是，他就沒觸法了。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：如果都沒觸法會把他塗銷，這是為了讓少年復歸社會、健全成長。"],["王委員義川：對啦，我是說這個反作用力就是詐騙集團會跟年輕人說：立法院通過了，現在改為三年後，你就沒事了啦，不用怕，以後不會有前科啦，你就去做、去領就對了啦。"],["鍾廳長宗霖：報告委員，以前是所有少年的觸法紀錄三年滿都塗銷，現在是你再觸法不塗銷、留著，是這樣，所以這個必須讓社會整個翻轉概念想法和法制的更新。"],["王委員義川：好，我最後提醒，這樣塗銷的過程恐怕讓詐騙集團的老大直接跟小朋友講說你不用擔心，立法院就是會幫你們塗銷，這些立法改天都是我們立的，改天電視就報導說年輕人15歲去做車手，25歲都沒事，因為立法院已經說好了把他塗銷，這種狀況有時候反而會顛倒是非，這件事情可能要特別去注意一下，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},{"id":"164555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dad17c7d5d2f537d8ead42acad3a0f8ea683c966d97180d5d21e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:45:04 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呃 有請主委請問主委"},{"start":14.773,"end":37.711,"text":"郭委員好主委辛苦了這個前天我去參加了這個台北車站就是我們的這個車站的時候就是我們的科普列車那這個是十週年我想這個十年來這個要先給我們的國科會一個掌聲一下那我想這個喜歡參加或願意參加甚至也有一些"},{"start":38.751,"end":65.781,"text":"過去曾經參與過這個科普列車的孩子現在七年之後他要成為關主而且這個關主非常的特別他是廳長的這個學生但是他這一次成為了助教成為了關主那我想這個影響這個是非常非常大而且這一次我們的這個環島的列車也會到一些偏鄉那我想這已經不是只有一般的所謂的這個科學教育的普及"},{"start":66.361,"end":89.763,"text":"那也是我们教育平权非常重要的一个起点那这个礼拜预计应该会有两万名的学生会参加对不对是因为我有看那个影片我看这个主委笑得非常非常的开心讲到这些孩子讲到这些科学那我想这个未来因为这十年刚开始走到现在真的不容易那我想未来我们也继续往这条路走"},{"start":90.083,"end":105.451,"text":"甚至有人說是不是可以一年可以開兩班的列車有這樣子一個需求我們也來研究看看看這個頻率怎麼增加好嗎謝謝委員好但是主委我想這個剛剛提到這個孩子的科學教育很重要"},{"start":105.951,"end":133.849,"text":"但是接著下來人才的留任也很重要除了人才的留任前一陣子我們看到有一個新聞的標題我想在這裡剛剛葉元之委員沒有讓主委好好的說明清楚我們來看一下高教貧窮國科會的經費動漲教授用微波爐來取代百萬的設備根據這樣子的一個聳動的標題但是我想我還是要聽一下主委您怎麼說"},{"start":134.77,"end":161.102,"text":"那我想如果研究要靠所謂的窮撐才能夠生存下去的話那我想未來我們台灣的科研我怕只剩下奇蹟沒有希望那這點我是不是請我們的主委先來回應一下這個用微波爐來取代百萬的設備這是屬實嗎那到底有什麼樣的一些事情或者是哪些爭議我們是可以在這裡來解釋的"},{"start":162.759,"end":189.478,"text":"当然微波炉也可以是一个实验设备就看看学者他怎么去应用它如果你能够用一个比较低成本简单的设备可以做出伟大的研究那这样的学者更厉害当然我们回过头来谈这个经费的问题我跟委员报告其实国科会在我们自己可以编列的这个有限的预算之下我们还是逐年在提升我们所有的这个计划的"},{"start":190.178,"end":207.782,"text":"平均的研究經費是逐年在提升到今年都還是一樣我們當然希望未來幾年都還可以繼續提升並且我們核電的計畫的案件比例也是增加的也不是減少的所以整體來講我們並沒有像媒體這種標題所講的"},{"start":213.423,"end":239.61,"text":"这样耸动的政府在支持我们的科技的研发预算一直在增加虽然我是期待能够再增加更多但是因为行政院的总预算受到一些限制所以没有办法像我们预期的在台湾经济实力还很强的时候能够再加强我们的实力让我们科研的力量能够增加我是很期待"},{"start":241.23,"end":267.939,"text":"至少民人的預算也希望我們立法院可以支持所以我想這個結構性的動漲的這些預算我們還是有逐年在增加當中我們也希望能夠再往更好的一個方向走但是我剛剛有提到就是在人才的培育的部分我想在這個助理研究員或者研究生他們的薪資現在普遍還是落在所謂的30K到40K之間"},{"start":269.299,"end":286.173,"text":"我想這個部分是我想青年學者他們所承載的必須要撰寫計畫同時也有所謂的留任的壓力我想這些人才如果我們在這個部分的相關的資源不足"},{"start":286.773,"end":307.012,"text":"那我們也很擔心這些人才要嘛就是往國外發展要嘛就是往業界靠攏那我覺得這個會是將來我們人才的部分的一些流用的一些問題是結構上的一些問題針對這些問題我們應該要怎麼樣來讓這些科研的工作者他們能夠在一個比較穩定的一個環境當中能夠來發揮他們的長才"},{"start":309.454,"end":325.467,"text":"那我想這個薪資的誘因的確也是非常非常重要的很多人在講說錢不重要靠熱情就夠了不對這薪資其實是支撐他們的生活最重要的一環那這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個計畫來解決呢報告委員我非常同意委員的講法"},{"start":326.167,"end":349.466,"text":"因为学界跟业界的薪资的差异其实有在扩大我们非常的忧心因为这个样子学界找不到好的人才我们的新晋的教师现在在聘用上面也碰到非常多的困难所以我跟教育部的政部长其实有讨论这个事情我们也在想说在现在我们整个法律的限制之下"},{"start":350.526,"end":378.425,"text":"还包含在考试院的这个问题没有办法在体制内去改变这个现状我们是希望说能够在政策行政命令上面能够有机会我们鼓励产业界能够发挥他们的影响力也能够跟政府一起来合作有没有一些比较具体的计划具体就是我们正在研拟合并的制度"},{"start":379.326,"end":395.535,"text":"合併的制度讓優秀的人才在產業界也可以指導或者是在教學方面能夠協助我們學術界我們學術界的教授他有這個能力能夠在學校也指導研究可以當教師"},{"start":396.075,"end":422.846,"text":"同時也在產業界也可以發揮它的實力協助產業界研發目前都還在研擬當中都還沒有一個具體的規劃我們在研擬當中希望能夠順利的去推動這樣的大概有沒有一個比較實際的一些進程讓我們可以期待或者是讓我們可以看得到我們希望在這個學年度在這個學年度能夠把這個制度看看能不能把它落實下來下個學年度可以實現"},{"start":423.166,"end":440.208,"text":"所以這個玄陵路如果可以落實下來或有一些比較具體的一些計畫再提供給我們辦公室來作為參考好嗎好那我們當然也樂見就是我們要來找解方讓這些所謂的科研人才能夠真的長留久用好那接下來我想這個國家災害房"},{"start":440.869,"end":455.293,"text":"防救科技中心在國科會跟政財基金會的一個努力合作之下我們對於2016年不管是台南的地震或2018年花蓮的地震我們進行了災害任性的研究當然成果也登上了國際地震權威的期刊"},{"start":459.614,"end":481.436,"text":"那另外就是在我想這個聯合國他們也特別在研究報告當中也指出平時如果我們能夠建立完善的一個風險的評估那另外還有資源的一個整合以及制度化的一個備援的機制其實都是關鍵在社會如何在災難之後可以快速的一個重建"},{"start":482.257,"end":492.341,"text":"我想國科會最近我們近年來也在推動災害防救韌性科技的一個方案三年來我們也投入了28億整合了9個部會同時也有18個機關跟118項的一個計畫"},{"start":498.824,"end":520.066,"text":"已經有產出166項研究報告的成果其中有76項是可以來做實際的應用我想這個部分也象徵我們在災害任性的一個計畫其實我們是真正的有在做執行但是這邊我想要再請教一下我們的主委"},{"start":521.006,"end":546.075,"text":"雖然我們已經很積極的在投入這個所謂的防災的一個科研但是我們要怎麼樣來確保這些成熟的科研的結果它能夠轉換變成具體的一個防災的一個政策的一個工具那不管是結合地方也好或者是學校教育的一個防災教育的部分我們怎麼樣來落實那這個部分是不是在各個所謂的這個災防的資料的運用"},{"start":546.835,"end":566.736,"text":"也是可以互通有無那怎麼樣來做這個整合的一個有沒有預計要推動這個所謂的跨域的資料整合標準化這個部分有沒有一些比較具體的一些計畫跟報告謝謝委員這個整合的確是非常重要這是為什麼行政院有一個在我們"},{"start":568.126,"end":584.868,"text":"任何災害要侵襲譬如說颱風之前我們會成立這個中央災害應變中心背後支撐這個災害應變中心在做決策的時候它的重要的一個機構就是我們的災防中心國會下面那個國家災防中心"},{"start":585.748,"end":610.235,"text":"這個災難中心其實是整合我們現在各部位在做這個資料收集的部分包含中央氣象署在做這個氣候資料的這個監測然後整合到我們災難中心包含地震的資料包含這個土石邊波的監測等等各種各樣的這個資料匯集到我們的災難中心我們會做這個資料的分析然後做一些估計"},{"start":611.835,"end":632.505,"text":"然後提供最後的這個資訊甚至情報給我們各部會作為這個施政決策的參考那在各個地方的政府跟學校剛剛我提到這學校的防災的一個教育有沒有已經導入這些所謂的科研的結果那地方他們有沒有辦法有管道可以回饋他們的問題來優化我們的科研的一個防災的一個結果這個部分"},{"start":634.026,"end":656.077,"text":"委員關心的這個事非常的好其實我們跟各地各地方政府還有教育機構也緊密在合作所以我們災防中心其實在各個縣市也都有相關的學者也會協助協助我們把相關的這個防災防災的一些知識灌輸到我們的地方的這個教育上面所以現在已經是落地有災實施的對不對現在有落地"},{"start":656.877,"end":678.062,"text":"我想這個很重要因為其實我想這個天災不斷不管是豪雨也好或者是我們碰到的所謂的颱風、地震等等台灣處於一些比較特殊的一個環境我想讓這些科研的結果不要只是報告而已而是要真正的成為所謂的救命的一個工具這也是我們這個國科會"},{"start":679.802,"end":696.125,"text":"也是非常重要的一个使命跟工作在进行今天因为时间的关系其实我后面还有两题我真的来不及问没关系我们还有很多的机会可以再互相的交流也谢谢我们的主委谢谢主席谢谢各位请回座我们现在休息五分钟"},{"start":1003.004,"end":1006.124,"text":"现在开会我们接下来请林一锦委员质询"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委辛苦了。前天我去參加了臺北車站的科普列車10週年活動，這10年來要先給國科會一個掌聲，喜歡參加或願意參加，甚至也有一些過去曾經參與過科普列車的孩子，7年之後，他要成為關主，而且這個關主非常地特別，他是聽障學生，但是他這一次成為了助教、成為了關主，這個影響是非常非常大的。而且這一次我們的環島列車也會到一些偏鄉，這已經不是只有一般科學教育的普及，也是我們教育平權非常重要的起點，這個禮拜預計會有2萬名的學生參加，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我有看那個影片，我看主委笑得非常、非常開心，講到這些孩子、講到這些科學，這10年從剛開始走到現在真的不容易，未來我們也繼續往這條路走。甚至有人說，是不是可以一年開兩班列車？既然有這樣的需求，我們也來研究看看，看這個頻率怎麼增加，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委，剛剛提到孩子的科學教育很重要，但是接著下來，人才的留任也很重要，除了人才的留任，前一陣子我們看到有一個新聞標題，剛剛葉元之委員沒有讓主委好好地說明清楚，我們來看一下「高教貧窮，國科會經費凍漲，教授用微波爐取代百萬設備」，對於這個聳動的標題，我還是要聽一下主委怎麼說，如果研究要靠窮撐才能夠生存下去的話，我怕未來臺灣的科研只剩下奇蹟、沒有希望。這一點請主委先來回應，用微波爐來取代百萬設備，這是屬實嗎？到底有什麼樣的事情或者是哪些爭議可以在這裡解釋？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，微波爐也可以是一個實驗設備，就看學者怎麼去應用它，如果你能夠用一個比較低成本、簡單的設備做出偉大的研究，這樣的學者更厲害。當然，我們回過頭來談經費的問題，我跟委員報告，其實國科會在自己可以編列的有限預算之下，我們還是逐年在提升所有計畫平均的研究經費，是逐年在提升的，到今年都還是一樣，我們當然希望未來幾年還可以繼續提升；並且我們核定的計畫案件比例也是增加的，不是減少的。所以整體來講，我們並沒有像媒體標題所講的這麼聳動，政府在支持我們科技的研發方面，預算一直在增加，雖然我是期待能夠再增加更多，但是因為行政院的總預算受到一些限制，所以沒有辦法像我們預期的。不過在臺灣經濟實力還很強的時候，能夠再加強我們的實力，讓我們科研的力量能夠增加，我很期待至少明年的預算立法院可以支持。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以在結構性凍漲的預算下，我們還是有逐年在增加當中嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們也希望能夠再往更好的方向走。但是我剛剛有提到，在人才培育的部分，助理研究員或研究生的薪資現在普遍還是落在30K到40K之間，青年學者除了承載著必須要撰寫計畫外，同時也有留任的壓力，對於這些人才，如果我們在這個部分的相關資源不足，我們也很擔心這些人才要嘛就是往國外發展、要嘛就是往業界靠攏，本席覺得這會造成將來人才留用的問題，而且是結構上的問題。","針對這些問題，我們應該要怎麼讓這些科研工作者在一個比較穩定的環境當中發揮他們的長才？本席認為薪資誘因的確非常重要，很多人說錢不重要，剛好夠用就好，不對！薪資其實是支撐他們生活最重要的一環，這個部分有沒有什麼計畫可以解決呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常同意委員的說法，其實學界和業界的薪資差異有在擴大，我們也非常憂心，因為這樣學界找不到好的人才，現在新進教師在聘用上也碰到非常多困難，所以我和教育部鄭部長也有在討論這個事情。我們也在想，現在在法律的限制之下，包含考試院的問題，如果沒有辦法在體制內改變現狀，我們希望有機會能夠在政策、行政命令方面突破，鼓勵產業界發揮他們的影響力，也希望他們能夠和政府合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有比較具體的計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：具體計畫就是我們正在研擬合併的制度，合併制度讓優秀人才可以在產業界指導，或者協助學術界進行教學。學術界的教授有能力在學校指導研究、擔任教師；同時也可以在產業界發揮他的實力，協助產業界研發……"],["郭委員昱晴：目前都還在研擬當中，還沒有具體規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在研擬當中，希望能夠順利推動這樣的計畫。"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有比較實際的進程讓我們可以期待，或者是讓我們可以看到？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們希望這個學年度能夠把制度落實，下個學年度可以實施。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果這個學年度可以落實，或者有比較具體的計畫，再提供資料給我們辦公室參考，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們也樂見這樣的計畫，因為我們要找解方，讓這些科研人才能夠真的長留久用。國家災害防救科技中心在國科會和賑災基金會的努力合作之下，不管是2016年的臺南地震或是2018年的花蓮地震，防災中心進行災害韌性的研究，這個成果也登上國際地震權威的期刊。另外，聯合國也特別在研究報告當中指出，如果平時能夠建立完善的風險評估、資源的整合以及制度化的備援機制，都是社會在災難之後可以快速重建的關鍵。","國科會近年來也在推動災害防救韌性科技方案，三年來投入28億元，整合9個部會，同時也有18個機關提出118項計畫，已經產出166項研究成果，其中有76項可以實際應用，這個部分也象徵我們的災害韌性計畫有真的在執行。但是本席想要再請教一下主委，雖然我們已經很積極投入防災科研，但是要怎麼確保這些成熟的科研結果能夠轉變成具體的防災政策工具？不管是結合地方也好，或者是學校的防災教育，我們怎麼落實？各種災防資料的運用是否可以互通有無？怎麼整合？是否推動跨域的資料整合標準化？這個部分有沒有比較具體的計畫和報告？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。這個整合的確非常重要，這也是為什麼行政院在任何災害侵襲時，例如颱風來臨之前會成立中央災害應變中心，支撐這個災害應變中心做決策的單位，其中一個重要的機構就是國科會的國家災防中心。","其實這個災防中心就是在整合各單位所做的資料蒐集，包含中央氣象署的氣候資料監測也會整合到我們的災防中心、包含地震的資料、包含土石、邊坡的監測等等，各種各樣的資料都會匯集到災防中心，我們會做資料分析，然後做一些估計，並提供最後的資訊，甚至是情報，給各部會做為施政決策參考。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛本席也提到，學校的防災教育有沒有導入這些科研結果？地方有沒有管道可以回饋他們的問題來優化科研防災的結果？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員關心的這個部分非常好，其實我們和各地方政府及教育機構也有緊密合作，災防中心在各縣市也有相關學者參與，協助我們把相關防災知識灌輸到地方教育。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在已經落地實施了，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在有落地。"],["郭委員昱晴：本席認為這個部分很重要，因為天災不斷啦！不管是豪雨也好，或者是碰到颱風、地震等等，臺灣處於一個比較特殊的環境，要讓這些科研結果不只是報告而已，而是真正成為救命的工具。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：這也是國科會非常重要的使命和工作。","今天因為時間的關係，本來後面還有兩題，但是真的來不及問，不過沒關係，我們還有很多機會可以再互相交流，也謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，主委請回座。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：現在開會。","接下來請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}},{"id":"164554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da0c057932b8071ce5e29853ba2d60c06d83c966d97180d5d21e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:45:45 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那請要一下農林農林這個是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行剛剛傳出台中疑似發現非洲豬瘟農業部緊急召開記者會但是媒體有在報導說因為今年這個農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞那請問一下像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的"},{"start":204.574,"end":224.068,"text":"因為中央和地方都有啦都有那中央的預算被砍了那地方那些出現漏洞那誰要負責很難講對不對不好講嘛現在還沒有調查清楚往下看來我們看看那未來如果我們現在的社福支出我們有什麼"},{"start":225.373,"end":252.794,"text":"有福利對不對我們這裡看到的你這裡寫我們福利照顧跟社會安全340億對不對這你在報告裡面寫的這是關於115年度一般性補助款2500億當中福利照顧跟社會安全佔了340億照顧協助弱勢保留的社會福利經費406億我請教一下這可能要請教主席長哪些是這些福利照顧社會"},{"start":254.841,"end":275.571,"text":"安全是中央還是地方法有明文嗎有 這些都是屬於地方的只是都是由中央在補助等等 中央政府支出的勞保補助 健保補助是法有明文是中央出對不對對 這個部分還必須透過修法因為以前這個部分是由政府在支出"},{"start":276.311,"end":303.498,"text":"過去是政府支出但是本來屬於地方的權責因為政府的財政中央較好所以在條文上就有指明是中央出的中央要出這個原來是省政府在出本來是省政府出的後來交給中央政府出必須要有條文明定的才是中央出如果沒有明定的那是要還是中央出嗎"},{"start":304.951,"end":333.695,"text":"對所以等於是說有條文明定是有勞保健保是這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉但是現在如果沒有那個主席長你太急了啦是是我是說沒有修法你當然想把這個勞保跟健保交給地方嘛是但是縱使如此該地方出的如果條文有定是中央出中央還是會出除非修法是但是如果法沒有明定的是不是就應該地方出我要問你這一句啦"},{"start":334.841,"end":356.649,"text":"沒有法律明確的是不是該地方的就地方出地方制度法也有明確的規定所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫性補助都是地方應該要出的所以從憲法的法理推論該地方執行的業務除非像勞保跟健保有法有明文規定我們中央才出法沒有明文的都應該地方出"},{"start":357.149,"end":374.403,"text":"是不是這樣子是你太急了你一直想說連勞保健保的你都覺得應該是地方出除非修法當然修法就照法律是沒有修法的我們沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理好那我們再問一下來現在健保保費法有明定"},{"start":375.359,"end":398.755,"text":"政府負擔的都是由中央政府出對不對民眾致富的地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了 有沒有有嘛 有地方政府出嘛70歲的長者有地方政府民眾的致富而地方政府扛起來了嘛那一天我才問你嘛那如果地方政府他連民眾致富的都有能力致富那為什麼政府致富的要中央來付呢"},{"start":399.69,"end":428.805,"text":"是不是這個意思所以是不是你未來覺得說應該是中央跟地方共同討論原定政府負擔的怎麼樣大家負擔去拆分 是不是這樣子所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來現在連地方政府連民眾自負額都有辦法幫忙付那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出是這樣嗎 好 往下看好 那麼剛剛我們看到了來 退伏經費也是如此"},{"start":429.585,"end":457.014,"text":"現在退伍經費一個是退伍基金嘛中央政府有沒有負擔有有沒有 有負擔嘛那請問中央的公教人員是中央出對不對那請問地方公教人員的是誰出依規定應該地方政府來出依規定是出 實況是誰出因為它增加實況是誰代出它增加的部分是中央政府在出是嘛所以你看這個"},{"start":459.178,"end":471.379,"text":"零用錢都發下去了 帳單還是老爸老媽付對不對 子女都說啊 零用錢太少了我沒有辦法生活 多給零用錢可是呢 他外面的開銷的帳單還是老爸老媽付 是不是這樣子"},{"start":472.315,"end":499.237,"text":"那在這種情況之下我們要怎麼調所以目前我們連公教的年金除了退伏基金之外是中央政府幫忙出而且中央政府還出到了地方的公教人員那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚說明白按照這個財力跟他們的負擔去調整也是好往下看來好剛剛講到那個李昆城委員提到了"},{"start":500.58,"end":522.053,"text":"去年修了財化法 今年一算糟糕了 有345億分配不出去其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的那請問這些錢345億 是不是本來要用在地方是本來要用在地方的錢 要給地方的那是不是用在地方的身上誰來打"},{"start":525.326,"end":553.988,"text":"跟委員報告這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢這是因為公事分配不出去的我知道 本來要分配給他但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上是不是這樣因為他這個是本來是地方的錢對 所以用在地方的人民身上不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全主席長包括包括嘛所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全你是支持的吧 主席長"},{"start":557.725,"end":586.981,"text":"怎麼沒有回答呢這是要給地方的錢地方本來就要做什麼社會福利照顧跟社會安全如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全符不符合這筆錢他的性質是不是對嘛 符合他的性質嘛好 那往下看所以說我們來看一下假如說國民老年 老人年金對不對這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全嘛是不是應該在我們"},{"start":587.845,"end":614.434,"text":"憲法裡面中央跟地方分權這是地方政府的權責嘛 治權嘛 對不對所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分有沒有符合他的原理 魯記長這屬於地方應該負擔的話地方應該負擔的如果這筆錢用在老人年金國民的國民年金有人主張說讓他月領八千如果扣除牌幅 扣除最低的居住限制不足的補到八千"},{"start":615.458,"end":643.8,"text":"主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢可不可以去算大概多少大概900億900億全年要900億對不對地方他要去付這900億好往下看那如果說產後照顧津貼有什麼好處可以坐月子兩老四老就可以省事或者說家人照顧可以減輕負擔像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧"},{"start":645.276,"end":673.599,"text":"是 那如果有人要發這筆錢是不是也要用這一筆地方給地方的錢按照中央和地方一個分權是地方的人民就有地方好 那最後一個因為時間的關係勞退勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全如果我們對勞工勞退自體我們政府給一趴的獎勵你覺得這筆錢是不是也是地方來支應是合理的"},{"start":675.905,"end":696.267,"text":"是不是合理的所以說現在財政收支劃分法地方政府的負擔能力我們要先把市權先分出來再去討論中央跟地方應分配的如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款是不是一些屬於地方做的事情地方政府要全額負擔你知不支持這樣的一個概念"},{"start":697.827,"end":715.659,"text":"好最後呢我們的結論就是這樣請主席總署針對地方政府法定應辦理事項統計現在統計出現在個別目前是中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額原來是地方做的結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔把這個統計出來可以嗎"},{"start":717.911,"end":739.413,"text":"是國化會目前在進行所以這個市權的部分是國化會在負責不是 我不是說市權我是說現在去統計啦你是負責統計就好了嘛但是也必須要國化會去做分配之後我才能夠協助上面要有人告訴你哪些是中央還是地方你才能去做統計那你沒關係你把上面的誰做的先不掛你先統計出來好不好"},{"start":740.354,"end":765.061,"text":"這些政事別哪些是當中多少中央出多少地方出你算出來我們來看看檢討上面的事權是歸誰好不好這樣懂了嗎可以喔最後請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府以貨配的新增額度估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力可以嗎這樣了解喔夠清楚吧我們當然會配合委員的要求來做報告"},{"start":766.181,"end":781.91,"text":"但是有一点我是不是可以补充说明一下因为这个345亿毕竟还是地方的财源所以将来假定他的分配公司修正之后那么分配给地方以后地方政府是可以统收统资的"},{"start":782.29,"end":811.783,"text":"当然但是法是立法院定的如果立法院通过立法要求把这345亿现在分配不出去的直接用在人民的身上而且是属于地方政府的福利照顾和社会安全支出那也是立法院的事情对不对就跟着立法院通过的法做就对了是不是这样所以如果有这样的法律规定那当然就可以好谢谢好我们谢谢宗家B委员接下来我们请林世民召委那在林世民召委这个职期"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時45分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請主計長跟財政部阮次長。"],["主席：好，請主計長還有阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長好、次長好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有覺得今天冷清清的啊？是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨，你覺得呢？還是因為今天我們討論的是財劃法，主計長，你覺得呢？如果今天我們討論的是一萬元怎麼領、跟誰領、怎麼花、政府還有補貼，你覺得情況會不會不一樣？好像不好答喔。","其實是這樣子，就像公司，員工只要有拿到薪水，其他的他不會問，他不會去關心公司的財務、會計怎麼調度，他只關心我的薪水是不是按時發，是不是這樣子？所以，次長，昨天財政部是不是召集各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法，熱不熱烈？"],["阮次長清華：非常熱烈。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常熱烈？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是管財務的人嘛？"],["阮次長清華：對，都管財務的，都是財政系統的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！但是一般不是財政系統的，不曉得你們在搞什麼啦。","來，我先問一下，地方補助款不低於去年還創新高，這是新聞，財政部昨天開的那個會是不是……這是昨天的新聞照片，你們要提行政院版的財劃法修法，對不對？報導中還提到說，保障統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款不低於今年的規模，就是7,177億，但是要滿足基準財政收支短差、納入財政努力機制，也就是貢獻機制，還要考量到基本建設需求，到時分配的方法會調整回來，地方政府多表認同。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：調整回來是他們的錢會變多還是變少？"],["阮次長清華：有些多，當然有些會減少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多的當然是認同啊！少的也認同啊？"],["阮次長清華：因為指標一動以後一定是這樣，因為那個是公式嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。來，我們跟兩位探討一下，這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分，主計長跟次長是不是同意在討論錢怎麼分配之前，先討論事權怎麼分，對不對？同意嘛？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同意就點頭或大聲說，大聲說我比較聽得到。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是喔？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看憲法第一百零七條到第一百十條，第一百零七條說哪些是中央做的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一百零八條、第一百零九條就談到哪些是可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後第一百十條是談到地方政府也就是縣市級的要做的是這些，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我請教一下，農林這部分是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行。剛剛傳出臺中疑似發現非洲豬瘟，農業部緊急召開記者會，但是媒體有在報導說，因為今年農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍，所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞。請問一下，像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：中央和地方都有啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：中央的預算被砍了，然後地方那邊出現漏洞，那誰要負責？很難講，對不對？不好講嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在還沒有調查清楚。","往下看，來，我們看一看，我們現在的社福支出有福利，對不對？我們看到你的報告裡寫的，福利照顧跟社會安全340億，對不對？這你的報告裡面寫的嘛，這是關於115年度一般性補助款2,500億當中，福利照顧跟社會安全占了340億，為照顧、協助弱勢所保留的社會福利經費406億。我請教一下，這可能要請教主計長，福利照顧、社會安全是中央還是地方負責，法有明文嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，這些都是屬於地方的，只是都是由中央補助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等等，中央政府支出的勞保補助、健保補助是法有明文由中央出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分還必須透過修法，因為以前這個部分是省政府在支出，後來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是過去是中央政府支出，但是本來是屬於地方的權責，因為中央的財政較好，所以在條文上有指明是中央出的中央就要出嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個原來是省政府在出，後來移轉……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本來是省政府出的，後來交給中央政府出。"],["陳主計長淑姿：精省之後交給政府，所以這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：必須要有條文明定的才是中央出，如果沒有明定的，那還是中央出嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，等於條文有明定的有勞保、健保，這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉，但是現在如果沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長，你太急了啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說，沒有修法……你當然想把勞保跟健保交給地方嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是縱使如此，該地方出的，如果條文有定是中央出，中央還是會出，除非修法。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果法沒有明定的，是不是就應該是地方出？我要問你的是這一句啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有法律明定的，是不是該地方的就地方出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方制度法也有明確的規定，所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫型補助都是地方應該要出的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以從憲法的法理推論，該地方執行的業務，除非像勞保跟健保是法有明文規定，我們中央才出，法沒有明文規定的都應該地方出，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你太急了，你一直覺得連勞保、健保都應該是地方出，除非修法，當然修法就照法律，沒有修法的，沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我再問一下，現在健保保費的部分法有明定政府負擔的都是由中央政府出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：民眾自付的，地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！這地方政府有出嘛！還有中低收入戶70歲以上的長者由地方政府出，民眾的自付額地方政府扛起來了，所以那一天我才問你，如果地方政府連民眾自付的都有能力支付，那為什麼政府支付的要中央來付呢？是不是這個意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你覺得未來是不是應該由中央跟地方共同討論，原定政府負擔的部分大家怎麼樣互相去拆分，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來，現在地方政府連民眾自付額都有辦法幫忙付，那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出嘛！是這樣嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看，退撫經費也是如此，現在退撫經費一部分是由退撫基金負擔，中央政府有沒有負擔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有負擔嘛！中央的公教人員是中央出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問地方公教人員的是誰出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：依規定應該地方政府來出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那實況是誰在出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它增加的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：實況是誰在出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它增加的部分是中央政府在出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以你看，零用錢都發下去了，帳單還是老爸、老媽付，對不對？子女都說零用錢太少了，我沒辦法生活，多給零用錢，可是他在外面開銷的帳單還是老媽、老爸付，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那在這種情況之下，我們要怎麼調？所以目前我們連公教的年金，除了退撫基金之外，是中央政府幫忙出，而且中央政府還負擔了地方公教人員的部分，那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚、說明白，按照財力跟他們的負擔去調整？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。剛剛李坤城委員提到，去年修了財劃法，今年一算，糟糕了，有345億分配不出去，其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的，請問345億這些錢本來是不是要給地方的錢？那是不是要用在地方的身上？誰來答？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢？"],["阮次長清華：這是因為公式分配出去的，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，本來要分配給它，但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去，那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上，是不是這樣？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個本來就是地方的錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以用在地方人民身上，包不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：包括。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括嘛！所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，你是支持的吧？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個我沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼沒有辦法回答呢？這是要給地方的錢，地方本來就要做福利照顧跟社會安全，如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全，符不符合這筆錢它的性質？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它是屬於地方負擔。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛！符合它的性質嘛！那我們來看一下，國民年金、老人年金，這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，依照我們憲法裡面中央跟地方的分權，這是地方政府的權責，所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分，有沒有符合它的原理？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是屬於地方應該負擔的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地方應該負擔的，如果這筆錢用在老人年金、國民的國民年金，有人主張讓他月領8,000，如果扣除排富、扣除最低居住期間限制，不足的補到8,000，主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢？可不可以去算大概多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概900億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：全年要900億，地方要付這900億。往下看，如果有產後照顧津貼有什麼好處？可以坐月子，兩老、四老就可以省事，或者家人照顧時可以減輕負擔，像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果有人要發這筆錢，是不是也要用這一筆給地方的錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：按照中央和地方的分權，是地方的人民就由地方……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一個，因為時間的關係，勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果對勞工勞退自提，政府給1%的獎勵，你覺得這筆錢是不是也是由地方來支應是合理的？是不是合理的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這要看事權的分配……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也是地方。最後我們看一下，所以依現在財政收支劃分法，地方政府的負擔能力為何？我們要先把事權分出來，再去討論中央跟地方應分配的，如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款，是不是一些屬於地方做的事情，地方政府就要全額負擔，你支不支持這樣的一個概念？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上應該是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後我們的結論就是這樣，請主計總處針對地方政府法定應辦理事項，統計出目前中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額。原來是地方做的，結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔，把這個統計出來可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分國發會目前在進行，所以這個事權的部分是國發會在負責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我不是說事權，我是說現在去統計，你負責統計就好了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是要國發會去做分配之後，我才能夠協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有人告訴你哪些是中央、哪些是地方，你才能去做統計？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係，那誰做的先不管，你先統計出來，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些政事別當中，多少中央出、多少地方出，你算出來，我們來檢討看看上面的事權是歸誰，好不好？這樣懂了嗎？可以吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府已獲配的新增額度，估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力，可以嗎？這樣了解吧？夠清楚吧？"],["阮次長清華：我們當然會配合委員的要求做報告，但是有一點我是不是可以補充說明一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請說明。"],["阮次長清華：因為這345億畢竟還是地方的財源，所以假定將來分配公式修正，分配給地方以後，地方政府是可以統收統支的，所以我們可能沒辦法指定它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，但是法是立法院定的，如果立法院通過立法，要求把現在分配不出去的這345億直接用在人民的身上，而且是屬於地方政府的福利照顧和社會安全支出，那也是立法院的事情，對不對？就跟著立法院通過的法做就對了，是不是這樣？"],["阮次長清華：所以如果有這樣的法律規定，那當然就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請林思銘召委，在林思銘召委質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},{"id":"164553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da87db29740f47923de072f7c27276b8ae83c966d97180d5d21e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:48:08 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讓高雄的這個產業鏈能夠更加的強大部長這個沒問題吧"},{"start":296.673,"end":323.918,"text":"沒問題謝謝部長部長一句沒問題大概我就全部都接收了我都接收那希望因為這個剛剛委員講的就是高雄現在發展都在進行式剛剛引進這個高科技產業包括半導體AI這個已經在進行式的那西光石的部分剛剛AMD也開始進駐了那無人機剛剛也有一些基礎的發展所以這個都是在進行式的我們只要政府我們"},{"start":324.438,"end":346.16,"text":"注入資源推他們一把我想就會發展得很好我也希望部長持續加強力道給他們更多的支持給他們更多的資源的時候他們就會發展得更好是好不好這請部長就持續的能夠加大這個力道在預算上在政治上面持續加大力道是是是好謝謝部長那接下來我要問一下大林埔千春其實我們談了很多次了那"},{"start":348.261,"end":370.169,"text":"這個明年度要編列60億嘛 明年度要列60億的經費 那明年第二季要啟動協議架構的程序嘛 那接下來4月份要進行道路的工程 這個都是既定的程序嘛我希望包括接下來有很多的像環評或都計的這些的 我也希望能夠部長能夠協調各單位加快跟環保"},{"start":370.869,"end":389.467,"text":"環境部跟整個內政部都能夠加快程序啦不然從2018年蘇院長合併到現在已經將8年過去了那如果再持續的拖下去百姓真的會等太久了我希望這一塊請部長協調一下兩個部會間加快那個程序因為現在比較沒有"},{"start":389.847,"end":409.291,"text":"因為之前都是在您這邊提到全方位照顧鄉親權益那時候鄉親的權益一直在先簽尊先談好補償等等一些情況那我想那個部分已經告一段落了那明年就可以開始所以速度就會加快好那我希望這個部分能不能在因為已經過很長時間了2027年正式來啟動簽尊部長朝這個方向來做好不好"},{"start":414.852,"end":438.484,"text":"2027年 好不好一定要朝這個方向來完成啦因為鄉親你等待很久2018年核定經過了10年如果還沒辦法啟動明年的steer計是協議架構但是協議架構完跟千村還有一段距離啦我希望2027年部長有承諾啦2027年我們正式來啟動千村好不好我們給大陵埔鄉親一個明確的一個交代了部長沒問題嗎 好的謝謝部長 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這就是我要問的嘛那除了這一個部分BMI內政部現在還有計畫要修訂或加嚴的然後來防止這一類的情形還有沒有其他的"},{"start":183.291,"end":210.545,"text":"那血壓當然是我們的重中之重血壓要怎麼去防範血壓的部分當然我們如果是純粹的血壓以往是免疫體位那我們現在必須要到血壓必須要達到他的心臟或者是器官有食指的病變才可以達到免疫體位這是他的我們的標準在定定的時候的內容所以這個部分也會大幅度的修動還有技術上比如說要量血壓我們都要做住院檢查"},{"start":210.925,"end":236.49,"text":"以往是勢必 勢需要才住院檢查現在是規定一定要住院檢查長期的 24小時的關注所以我們不管是在標準的制定或者是在檢查的這個制度上的規範我們都從嚴來訂定這個部分好 那現在對於已經確認涉及妨害兵役的這些異難在法律責任之外內政部將如何處理他們的役期或者是服役的義務"},{"start":238.889,"end":259.981,"text":"這個部分剛才有特別提到有需要補充嗎 有需要補服兵役嗎所以36歲以內是一定要回來如果說 先前我們這一次在這一波的調查當中有些藝人就發現到他自己也造假了他也主動來坦承了那坦承我們之後我們就跟縣市政府協調就恢復判他原來的地位"},{"start":261.262,"end":286.248,"text":"儘速把他徵集入院就補復兵役嘛36歲以後呢37歲以後因為他是廚藝了那廚藝這個部分是不是還要再來要來補兵役這個也有立法委員提出來希望這個部分即使他是37歲以後希望在機制上能不能再讓他回來機制我想大家對於這個兵役的公平性大家有所質疑我想內政部要有具體的措施來維護"},{"start":287.388,"end":312.595,"text":"我們所有男性服兵役這樣子的公平我昨天受訪的時候也表示鼓勵藝人來宣導服役那服役是光榮的那我們也希望37歲以後的這些到底是要回來補服兵役還是他現有的狀況他可能是知名藝人能不能夠幫忙協助內政部國防部來做相對應的一個宣導增加我們的一個形象"},{"start":313.435,"end":337.933,"text":"這部分我覺得你們也可以研擬嘛對不對你覺得呢類似像社會藝這樣子用什麼樣的方式我可以具體去研究當然他們有藝人的光環你能不能認為說他是一個很好的樣板如果他不服兵役或者是他不能不服兵役的時候這個藝人他如果是一個知名藝人他甚至是有一個正面的能夠帶動到整體的形象"},{"start":339.266,"end":367.52,"text":"內政部是不是應該運用一下我想是這樣子啊第一個他如果已經有移送法辦那最後那個地檢署或者是法院要做什麼樣子的一個這個處分或是裁決我們當然就尊重那結束之後他如果願意來幫忙這個推動兵役的話我們當然會歡迎可是這個會變成負面的形象變成正面形象的過程當中一般社會大眾能不能接受還是他本來就是很健康的改過自新也是一個非常好的一個議題啊"},{"start":368.901,"end":393.432,"text":"怎麼會是完全就是負面而且畢竟有些人是得過很多的獎項我想在演藝上的事業不可否認他是的確有他的一個規模但是在這樣狀況下我覺得能夠帶動到整體的年輕人去學習後面能夠好好的來服兵役或者是好好的來服兵役或者是藉此發現其實當兵是很快樂我跟你講我當兵"},{"start":395.46,"end":409.926,"text":"最後十秒我當兵的時候是看那個新兵日記被那個熱血跟那個快樂 歡樂給騙進去的啦最後是真的很艱難啦但是我認為這個文化產業應該跟上以上 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就是有多少人數我們大概會知道"},{"start":116.226,"end":131.456,"text":"然後他我指的是他你有多少這個藝男人數但是我現在是說替代藝他有些會配到哪裡配到哪裡你們也有這個資料有這個資料有的話那你有沒有發現眾都會親偏鄉"},{"start":135.97,"end":159.959,"text":"我們替代役現役的部分有兩個區塊一個區塊就是用申請的那申請的就是依然你要哪裡來申請我們沒辦法掌握所以申請的時候他可以決定地點給他選擇嗎你們沒有掌握分配嗎我們基本上替代役的分發我們是以戶籍地為原則"},{"start":161.099,"end":186.538,"text":"就尽量让他回到家乡里面去以后被疫他在被疫的训练或者以后被疫的救灾他能够来熟悉所以尽量在家乡我们尽量都是让他到回复脊地去服务因为我们地方上我们有感觉好像一些偏乡地区的长照或者是弱势孩童的照护都没有足够的替代仪是"},{"start":187.967,"end":206.421,"text":"怎么样这个部分因为卫福部他们也有提出这个替代艺人力的需求那替代艺人力的需求基本上是卫福部就他所分配的源额他再去进一步分化到各县市那这个部分我们就尊重卫福部对对但是你手上有掌握嘛"},{"start":206.681,"end":235.588,"text":"有我這邊手邊有所以這樣就變成說如果我們說長者或是孩童的這種照護所以這就又變成是衛福部的權責因為人臉我們是你們只是把人召集來不是我們人召集完了之後那衛福部每年他會提出他的需求源額經過行政院的核定核定完了之後我們每年就會把這些人數盡可能的都給滿足到各部位的人力需求"},{"start":236.108,"end":249.67,"text":"那各部会人力需求之后他要分配到哪一个县市哪一个公所就由卫福部来去做决定所以这一个变成又是卫福部的权责对这个分配到服勤地点是由卫福部来决定的"},{"start":250.457,"end":264.186,"text":"接著這一塊因為今天應該衛福部沒來沒有今天衛福部沒來我就接著問我們義男他退伍後的就業輔導因為他這"},{"start":268.448,"end":283.46,"text":"为国家尽义务嘛那总是会牺牲一点尤其我们又恢复了一年嘛对不对所以是不是让他们怎么样会有一个空窗怎么样可以顺利重返社会这一块有没有任何的就业辅导措施"},{"start":284.349,"end":308.57,"text":"我們這個部分我們現階段並沒有去從事這個工作委員如果有指教的話我們以後也可以盡可能來媒介對啦 可以譬如說跟勞動部啊 退府會或是一些相關單位也幫他們弄個就業博覽會因為就本席了解有些人他對他自己的生涯或職涯"},{"start":309.45,"end":336.491,"text":"他掌握得很清楚但是因为现在有些很多服役的他们都还年轻所以如果说在可以有一个衔接然后帮他办个就业博览会也不难吧可以来做吗我们会来结合劳动部来配合这个机制我们来运作对对对好不好好那也请部长也支持多督导那再来就是我们对于这种家境清寒的艺男"},{"start":337.752,"end":363.854,"text":"這個部分我們是不是有可能特別對他們照顧因為我看到好像他們每個月大概就是7000多塊沒有 這個跟委員報告因為我們現階段我們有所謂的中低收入戶跟低收入戶低收入戶是要來扶替代役中低收入戶是扶常備兵役那他們去服役的時候他們的這個家況我們會給他做生活"},{"start":366.277,"end":383.797,"text":"輔助加礦的調查如果符合我們的類級的這個等級我們就會給他生活輔助那生活輔助就按照他的人口口數裡面的多少我們給他這個經費的補助那基本上我們是給他6500多塊將近7000塊沒錯啦"},{"start":387.26,"end":395.367,"text":"所以他家人口多你還可以乘以3喔有3口你可以乘以3那他還分甲級跟乙級丙級甲級的話我們就是乘以3"},{"start":399.163,"end":421.529,"text":"对这一块我们希望能够来协助这个部分我们之前已经有调整过了一次而且调整的幅度本来3000多块我们就调整到将近7000块我手上的资料最新你从5000多调到是7130我不知道那你的讲法是7130如果它符合规定"},{"start":422.009,"end":443.006,"text":"有三口人你可以乘以三給他對 甲級的話我們就是可以乘以三甲級是怎麼樣甲級是他的收入最低生活支出標準的百分之十以內那十到七十是一級對好 我們希望這一塊是能夠來協助我們也希望一起的努力但是我們還要跟主計總署來做溝通好 OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時37分）感謝主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，今天談替代役男，我想您一定認同替代役是國家的重要人力資源。"],["劉部長世芳：是，它也是兵役制度的一環。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，每一位役男的專長與時間，是不是都該妥善地來運用？"],["劉部長世芳：分成現役替代役跟備役替代役，現在在現役替代役上面，有關專長分布的部分，會有比較好的規劃；備役的部分，因為太多，我們慢慢會把它補足。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。除了專長以外，我想請教，現在內政部手上有沒有一份清楚、明確的替代役人力地圖？所謂人力地圖就是在全國各縣市，不管直轄市或是縣轄市、縣市，它的分布你們有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，請司長跟您回應一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["沈司長哲芳：報告委員，針對這個部分，我們有建置替代役在全國各地人員的配置跟地點，這個結合我們內政部TGOS的地圖有做這樣的配置。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有完全掌握了？"],["沈司長哲芳：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，但是因為現在會讓我們感覺……你們現在有數據嗎？沒有？沒有準備嘛？你們今天來有沒有那個數據？"],["沈司長哲芳：有，目前是總數啦……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們是總數？那我請教，我們新竹縣有多少？"],["沈司長哲芳：新竹縣，要查一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們每年都有掌握就對了？"],["沈司長哲芳：對。"],["劉部長世芳：它就跟兵役制度一樣啊！你現在在服兵役或者你是後備……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是指替代役耶！"],["劉部長世芳：是，替代役也是兵役制度的一環，所以我們應該掌握他在哪個地方……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對。所以替代役怎麼分配都知道？"],["劉部長世芳：不是分配，就是有多少人數，我們大概會知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是，你有多少役男人數……"],["沈司長哲芳：有，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我現在是說替代役他有些會分配到哪裡裡，你們也有？"],["沈司長哲芳：有、有，這個資料有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，這個資料有的話，你有沒有發現重都會輕偏鄉啊？"],["沈司長哲芳：服替代役現役的部分有兩個區塊，一個區塊是用申請的，一來你從哪裡來申請我們沒辦法掌握，這是用申請機制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以申請的時候，他可以決定地點？給他選擇嗎？你們沒有掌握、分配嗎？"],["沈司長哲芳：基本上替代役的分發是以戶籍地為原則，儘量讓他回到家鄉裡面去，以後他在備役的訓練或者以後備役的救災，他能夠來熟悉，所以基本上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以儘量在家鄉？"],["沈司長哲芳：儘量都是讓他回到戶籍地去服勤。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為在地方上，感覺好像有一些偏鄉地區的長照或者是弱勢孩童的照護都沒有足夠的替代役，這是怎麼樣？"],["沈司長哲芳：這個部分，因為衛福部他們也有提出替代役人力的需求，基本上是衛福部就他們所分配的員額，再去進一步分發到各縣市，這個部分我們是尊重衛福部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，但是你手上有掌握嘛？"],["沈司長哲芳：有，我手邊有資料，但是要查一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣長者或是孩童的照護又變成是衛福部的權責？"],["沈司長哲芳：對，因為人員是整體……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們只是把人召集來？"],["沈司長哲芳：不是，人召集完了之後，衛福部每年會提出他的需求員額，經過行政院的核定，核定完了之後，每年就會把這些人數儘可能滿足各部會的人力需求，之後各部會人力要分配到哪個縣市、哪個公所，就由衛福部去做決定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個又變成是衛福部的權責？"],["沈司長哲芳：對，分配到服勤地點是由衛福部來決定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，今天衛福部應該沒來？"],["主席：沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我就接著問，役男退伍後的就業輔導，因為他為國家盡義務，總是會犧牲一點，尤其我們又恢復為一年嘛！所以這會有一個空窗，怎麼樣可以順利重返社會？這一塊有沒有任何的就業輔導措施？"],["沈司長哲芳：這個部分，現階段並沒有去從事這個工作……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊是不是可以協助？"],["沈司長哲芳：委員如果有指教的話，以後也可以儘可能來媒介啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啦！可以譬如說，跟勞動部、退輔會或是一些相關單位，也幫他們弄個就業博覽會，因為就本席了解，有些人對他自己的生涯或職涯掌握得很清楚，但是因為現在很多服役的他們都還年輕，所以如果說可以有銜接，然後幫他們辦個就業博覽會，也不難吧？可以來做嗎？"],["沈司長哲芳：我們會結合勞動部配合這個機制，我們來運作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，好不好？"],["沈司長哲芳：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請部長也支持、多督導。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，對於家境清寒的役男，這個部分是不是有可能對他們特別照顧？因為我看到他們好像每個月大概就是領七千多塊？"],["沈司長哲芳：沒有，跟委員報告，因為現階段有所謂的中低收入戶跟低收入戶，低收入戶是要服替代役，中低收入戶是服長備兵役，他們去服役的時候，針對他們的家況，我們會給他做生活輔助家況的調查，如果符合類級的等級，我們就會給他生活輔助，生活輔助就按照他人口口數的多少給他經費的補助，基本上，我們是給他六千五百多塊，將近七千塊沒錯啦！這個部分，一口是將近七千塊，而且我們是最近……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以他家人口多，你還可以乘以三？有三口，你可以乘以三，是這樣嗎？"],["沈司長哲芳：它還分甲級、乙級跟丙級……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以都有判定？"],["沈司長哲芳：甲級就是乘以三。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊我們希望能夠來協助。"],["沈司長哲芳：這個部分，我們之前已經有調整過一次，而且調整的幅度，本來三千多塊調整到將近七千塊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我手上最新的資料，你從五千多調到是7,130元？你的講法是7,130，如果他符合規定，他有3口人，你就可以乘以3給他囉！"],["沈司長哲芳：對，甲級的話，我們就可以乘以3。"],["徐委員欣瑩：甲級是怎麼樣？"],["沈司長哲芳：甲級是他的收入低於最低生活支出標準的10%以內；10%到70%是乙級。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們希望這一塊能夠來協助。"],["沈司長哲芳：我們也希望一起來努力，但是我們還要跟主計總處溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK！謝謝。"],["沈司長哲芳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：感謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員不在。","請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： ( 一 ) 委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「替代役實施條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(二）委員羅美玲等18人擬具「替代役實施條例增訂第五十五條之五條文草案」案、 (三)台灣民\n眾黨黨團擬具「替代役實施條例第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1148601_00005"}}},{"id":"164550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4dadfb25ff2cfc6058d01812ea37d1526ba83c966d97180d5d2b4a53015686257145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:30:18 - 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司長請你回應一下"},{"start":89.239,"end":114.789,"text":"稍等再請部長回應另外一個問題謝謝是感謝委員的視角我們防災式的訓練這個我們這個政策我們今年期我們就積極的來推廣所以不只有要有方法我們隨時等內政部提出相關的這些方法出來我們今年所有在成功嶺接受訓練就新的啦要慢慢累積嘛對新的這一年所有的依然都要接受防災式的訓練並且要起的證照就是"},{"start":115.509,"end":125.899,"text":"像今年有一萬三千六百五十人都一定要取得這樣的一個證照這是現役的部分所以一年多一萬三對 這個是我們替代役的部分好 那其他的方法請你來整個部裡面我們部長在積極的推動我們希望能夠達到十萬來 我請部長關於備役的部分"},{"start":135.098,"end":149.453,"text":"我请部长部长刚刚有其他委员也讲到是要战争论吗我觉得不是因为以保二我们去年度在审议预算的时候保二总队警政署保二总队就被讲成说你们买这些反恐器材你们是在"},{"start":150.73,"end":177.499,"text":"准备要备战吗我想对于目前战争的形态那针对国家重点设施的这些部分包含水库电厂等等的这些的驻卫的警力必须有相关的这些第一时间的这些防备的这些能力这是加强一些训练而不是要准备战争这不要再这样误导所以我们内政部目前做的这一个事情就是"},{"start":178.021,"end":184.91,"text":"召集替代役來是增加台灣防災任何天然災害的這些任性來部長"},{"start":185.467,"end":207.713,"text":"是 謝謝剛剛委員有提到所謂的重要關鍵基礎設施現在當然是以寶二為主但是隨著重要的關鍵基礎設施越來越專業化我們除了寶二以外可能地方政府的警察人員也要投入所以這個部分應該跟所謂的什麼要準備戰爭是完全相反就好像說我們國防部有軍人有軍人就是準備要戰爭嗎不是 我們要防衛"},{"start":210.294,"end":231.009,"text":"對我們自己國家主權的正常防衛應該有的那不能把所有的工作都放在國軍所以這樣子的一個防衛機制裡面我們對於所謂的後備或是對於所謂的替代役也要做一下防災的訓練那這個防災訓練裡面除了現在面對天然災害之外還有一個重要的功能就是萬一有像譬如說像花蓮縣這樣的大規模"},{"start":232.87,"end":256.919,"text":"大規模的天災產生的時候我們要想辦法維持它的正常運作的功能不是大家都跑去救災然後縣政府或是鄉鎮公所就沒有人上班那這個誰來幫忙當然替代役的訓練可以補充一部分的部分所以這個部分恐怕很多人的會產生誤解然後也有人提到說你的替代役在成功你受訓的時候也要做打靶"},{"start":257.759,"end":264.628,"text":"但是大家都知道連我們在高中的時候女生也都是要做打靶的訓練不是為了因為打靶訓練就表示準備要上戰場我想這個是太廉價對於這個替代役所以現在有很多看到我們任何部會提出來任性兩個字就是說要戰爭的我覺得這件事情我們必須要"},{"start":277.062,"end":292.377,"text":"很清楚的说明清楚包含我从刚刚我举的这个宝二对于国家重要设施的例子那对于我们这次替代役的召集这些例子来讲我觉得我们可以透过这些实例让社会更清楚知道目前台湾需要什么"},{"start":292.897,"end":302.407,"text":"對 報告委員就是我們的預算也是因為有陳議政看到任性兩個字從警政消防每次看到任性就起跳就全部被刪掉或凍結那現在是慢慢恢復所以我們議政是很辛苦啊趕快把這時間裏面補足的訓練量盡量把它補足回來"},{"start":310.735,"end":338.423,"text":"那也跟委員補充報告一下除了我們現在在成功領受訓的這些現役替代役的防災室訓練高達接近一萬五千以外我們其他的民力機構包括像NGO到目前為止的已經登記而且拿到證照的是有超過七萬多人其實我在這邊也提醒部長還有司長其實當然這不是司長這邊的業務啦那我提醒部長其實我們出生地方有非常多地方的民力可以使用"},{"start":339.023,"end":358.051,"text":"那透過這些名利包含這些不管是疫警疫消或者是民防等等這一些來推動相關的這些防災式的這些訓練那我覺得都是一個可行的方向報告委員我想委員非常清楚了我們民政司已經要補充給所有的村里長"},{"start":359.551,"end":381.261,"text":"訓練費用那現在全台灣有四分之一的村里長已經拿到防災式的資格對除了村里長之外很多這些疫警疫消我也推我也建議內政部可以研議那個沒有問題只要他們願意把時間衝出來可能他們現在已經都有防災式的資格可能要再做一下那還是一樣就是我們還有防災協作中心未來的區公所會"},{"start":382.501,"end":403.846,"text":"分配到有20個到50個是替代役在碰到天然災害的時候會協助區公所就是防災協助中心做必要的專業上面的防災的處理好謝謝最後我針對剛剛部長回應的時候說113年度體檢免疫的比例高達16%我也建議這個跟國防部可以來討論這些相關的標準跟規定謝謝謝謝我們感謝李博義委員執行"},{"start":412.526,"end":413.453,"text":"家俗親切"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時30分）請劉部長和役政司司長。"],["主席：請劉部長跟役政司司長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，其實今天這一題，雖然我們在花蓮救災的時候有做了替代役召集的運用，其實就是一個防災士的概念，我今天想要舉瑞士跟日本兩個國家，針對防災或者是國防相關案例來跟內政部來討論。第一個，就今天的主題防災來講，日本從2003年開始就把防災士的概念法制化，我剛剛也聽了其他委員的垂詢，役政司的回應就是針對我們目前所有的替代役退役之後慢慢累積這些防災士。所以我在這邊也建議役政司可以有更多積極的方式或者是參考他國的這些方式，因為臺灣面對非常多的天然災害等等。這一次的花蓮，除了義工們，內政部妥善召集這些替代役可以回來參與救災，我想都是非常值得正面再去進一步探討的。先請司長回應一下，稍等再請部長回應另外一個問題，謝謝。"],["沈司長哲芳：是，感謝委員的賜教，有關防災士的訓練，有關這個政策從今年起我們就積極的來推廣，所以不只有……"],["李委員柏毅：要有方法，我們隨時等內政部提出相關的辦法出來。"],["沈司長哲芳：我們今年所有在成功嶺接受訓練……就是新的……"],["李委員柏毅：要慢慢累積嘛！"],["沈司長哲芳：新的這一年所有的役男都要接受防災士的訓練，並且要取得證照，像今年有1萬3,650人都一定要取得這樣的證照，這個是現役的部分。"],["李委員柏毅：就是一年多一萬三。"],["沈司長哲芳：對，這個是我們替代役的部分。"],["李委員柏毅：好，其他的方法請你說明。"],["沈司長哲芳：整個部裡面，我們部長在積極的推動，我們去年說希望今年能夠達到10萬。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝，我請部長。"],["沈司長哲芳：有關於備役的部分……"],["李委員柏毅：我請部長。部長，剛剛有其他委員也講到是要戰爭了嗎？我覺得不是啦，因為以保二來說，我們去年度在審議預算的時候，警政署保二總隊就被講成說他們買這些反恐器材是準備要備戰嗎？對於目前戰爭的型態，針對國家重點設施的這些部分，包含水庫、電廠等等這些的駐衛警力，必須有相關第一時間的防備能力，這是加強一些訓練，而不是要準備戰爭啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["李委員柏毅：不要再這樣誤導，所以內政部目前做的這一件事情就是召集替代役來是增加臺灣防災、任何天然災害的韌性。請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝，剛剛委員有提到所謂的重要關鍵基礎設施現在當然是以保二為主，但是隨著重要的關鍵基礎設施越來越專業化，我們除了保二以外，可能地方政府的警察人員也要投入，所以這個部分應該跟所謂要準備戰爭是完全相反，就好像國防部有軍人，有軍人就是準備要戰爭嗎？不是！我們要防衛，這是對我們自己國家主權的正常防衛應該有的，不能把所有的工作都放在國軍，所以在這樣子的防衛機制裡面，我們對於所謂的後備或是對於所謂的替代役也要做一下防災的訓練。"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["劉部長世芳：這個防災訓練裡面，除了現在面對天然災害之外，還有一個重要的功能，就是萬一有譬如像花蓮縣這樣大規模天災產生的時候，我們要想辦法維持它正常運作的功能，不是大家都跑去救災，然後縣政府或是鄉鎮公所就沒有人上班，這個誰來幫忙？當然替代役的訓練可以補充一部分，所以這個部分恐怕很多人會產生誤解，不是！也有人提到說你的替代役在成功嶺受訓的時候也要打靶，但是大家都知道，連我們在高中的時候，女生也都是要做打靶的訓練，不是因為打靶訓練就表示準備要上戰場，我想這個太廉價並且是對於替代役整體制度上的誤解。"],["李委員柏毅：所以現在有很多人看到我們任何部會提出來「韌性」兩個字就說要戰爭了，我覺得這件事情，我們必須要很清楚地說明清楚，包含剛剛我舉的保二對於國家重要設施的例子，對於這次替代役的召集，以這些例子來講，我覺得可以透過這些實例讓社會更清楚知道目前臺灣需要什麼。"],["劉部長世芳：對，報告委員，我們的預算也是因為前一陣子看到韌性兩個字，從警政、消防或者是替代役……"],["李委員柏毅：每次看到韌性就發瘋，就說要打仗。"],["劉部長世芳：就全部被刪掉或凍結，現在是慢慢恢復，所以役政司很辛苦，趕快把這段時間裡面的訓練量儘量補足回來。","也跟委員補充報告一下，除了現在在成功嶺受訓的這些現役替代役的防災士訓練高達接近1萬5,000人以外，其他的民力機構，包括像NGO，到目前為止，已經登記而且拿到證照的是有超過七萬多人。"],["李委員柏毅：我在這邊也提醒部長還有司長，當然這不是司長這邊的業務，那我提醒部長，其實出身地方，有非常多地方的民力可以使用，透過這些民力，包含不管是義警、義消，或者是民防等等，來推動相關防災士的訓練，我覺得都是可行的方向。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想委員非常清楚，民政司已經要補充給所有村里長訓練費用，現在全臺灣有四分之一的村里長已經拿到防災士的資格了。"],["李委員柏毅：對，除了村里長之外，很多這些義警、義消我也建議內政部可以研議。"],["劉部長世芳：那個沒有問題，只要他們願意把時間抽出來，可能他們現在已經都有防災士的資格，可能要再做一下……還是一樣，我們還有防災協作中心，未來的區公所會分配到20個到50個替代役，在碰到天然災害的時候會協助區公所，即防災協作中心，做必要的、專業上面的防災處理。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。最後，剛剛部長回應的時候說，113年度體檢免疫的比例高達16%，我也建議可以跟國防部討論相關的標準跟規定，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝李柏毅委員質詢。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： 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劉部長"},{"start":8.781,"end":36.168,"text":"學員好部長好部長昨天喔又因為這個藝人閃兵喔有幾位的藝人喔被居體逮捕那我想這件事情其實已經鬧了一段時候那其實我們說實在平常看到這些藝人喔在螢幕面前都是活力十足而且身體非常健朗可是每次要到當兵的時候呢就要嘛就是可以免疫要嘛就是可以轉服替代疫所以說對很多的年輕人還有他的家長都覺得"},{"start":37.276,"end":64.84,"text":"事實上是非常不公平那我們其實知道從健保制度84年實施以來照理說衛福部已經全面掌握全國民眾的完整的一個健康的資料所以說我們看到這些藝人平常的時候都活蹦亂跳但是到了當兵的時候就突然出現身體不適或是罕見疾病所以本席要請問部長的就是我們的健保資料跟我們體位的審查是否有整合的機制"},{"start":65.599,"end":93.034,"text":"目前沒有因為我們中間有一個叫做體檢那那個體檢的話就是根據兵役法是由內政部跟國防部一起把這個體檢完成所以目前沒有這樣子一個整合機制嗎目前還沒有因為整合這個機制還涉及到個資的部分那我們看在申請便跟體位的時候照理說相關單位也就是我們這邊應該是要參考一下這個個人的一個健保的就業紀錄就他平常有沒有這些異常"},{"start":94.054,"end":101.82,"text":"或他平常有這樣的一個用藥的紀錄而不是在短期內就這樣子的一個這個醫療紀錄像這樣的這樣我們我覺得應該是類似就高風險的一個造假是不是應該要有一個專責小組來附身是謝謝委員的關心委員您講到重點也就是說他平常身體非常健康那為什麼要到服兵役的時候突然身體就有狀況"},{"start":117.952,"end":121.413,"text":"那這個部分我們漏洞要來處理那現在也朝著這個機制在發展那相關的這個初檢跟體檢的復檢我是不是請議政司長很快跟委員回應一下好嗎沒關係這個部分我想就後續可能再給辦公室資料因為今天的時間比較短我接下來想請教的是就面對社會對傘兵的不滿因為這一段時間吵得沸沸揚揚所以"},{"start":140.539,"end":160.586,"text":"政府有沒有什麼具體的行動計畫要重拾年輕世代對我們這個服兵役的一個信心是 我想整一個體檢制度上面的漏洞我剛剛有跟委員報告過了包括在這個復檢或者體檢的過程當中是不是有些漏洞我們要補齊那我們也發現到閃兵後面有沒有有一些是犯罪集團"},{"start":161.306,"end":181.217,"text":"甚至包括有醫生啊醫生不配合他有怎麼辦法有出去這樣的一個證明所以我們現在所知道就是包括這一次的這個案例裡面呢有某一些特定的不孝醫生其實地檢署已經在偵辦當中所以目前已經移送法辦了就對了我想我們尊重司法單位的調查請問說有沒有移送法辦嗎"},{"start":181.897,"end":186.781,"text":"應該會跟委員報告因為剛剛講說已經你們已經主動請地檢署在整這個嗎是 已經我們移送了但是他偵查了進度因為這個要非常專業你要看得懂病例表裡面的這些東西必須要跟所以本席在這邊是建議我們內政部應該建立一個健保資料跟體位審查系統的一個串聯機制那由衛福部 國防部大家共同審查那如果發現有這樣子一個健康不符的這個"},{"start":211.881,"end":237.682,"text":"這狀況的時候 我們就主動的啟動那個復檢的一個機制我們朝著這個方向 要集體管控這個我們的採檢 避免假病例的出現 好嗎是 好 謝謝那接下來要請教的是兩位可以請回我 接下來要請教的是有關替代役 備役部長 麻煩您所以我們要請教的是有關替代役 備役的一個召集部長可以看到一下這個表就是我們從替代役的備役役難的演訓召集人數從105年"},{"start":240.151,"end":261.961,"text":"的一千多人到現在今年去年一百一十三年預估是五萬八千六百一十八人那最後當結訓的是五萬零五十二人我們可以看到為什麼在過去這個政府對替代役的藝男的召集跟延續是如此疏於規劃是一直到去年才有這樣子的一個"},{"start":262.797,"end":286.514,"text":"大規模的演訓召集的活動那是什麼樣的一個狀況因為如果是這樣子的一個大幅度的一個增加到底是出於災防跟社會任性的考量還是因為兩岸局勢的惡化政府已經在為最壞的狀況做準備報告委員這個是內政委會要求我們要把被替代役的演訓召集要實務上面來處理所以才會有跳聲這麼多"},{"start":287.014,"end":304.069,"text":"所以實務商會來處理是怎樣我是不是請易正思跟您補充這個報告我們召委之前的幾屆的委員會都有說我們替代議之前的這個備議召集的人數就一千多人跟國金差距太多差距太多是希望我們能夠做更大量的一個這個"},{"start":304.77,"end":309.294,"text":"所以你可以看到那個增加的幅度已經不是一倍兩倍喔是幾十倍喔所以如果一樣是你說的這個在以前都是因為災防跟社會韌性嘛那災防每年都有啊風災地震每年都有啊那但是你這個災防跟社會韌性的部分的話就增加到五萬多的這個"},{"start":329.169,"end":355.709,"text":"這個替代役難所以當然就會讓大家懷疑是不是因為兩岸局勢已經惡化然後大家在為最壞的狀況做準備那跟委員報告就因為我們除此之外因為我們替代役在112年之後就是因為任務的轉型以往我們替代役都是在政府機關在做所謂的公共事務的輔助性工作跟社會公益服務那後來我們替代役現在轉型要做民防做救災的工作"},{"start":356.149,"end":356.851,"text":"相關的這個部分我想我們都知道但我今天要問的問題就是說因為"},{"start":362.358,"end":386.128,"text":"以前是疏於演練現在開始我們有一個演訓召集的比例提高這麼高那我現在要請教部長就是說在這一次的馬太安的這個艷澀湖的潰壩之後內政部首次召開勤務召集直接讓備役替代義男上場救災那剛剛部長有講大概人數大概近百人你們召集120人達到九成那差不多就是九十六 九十五大概九成左右請問有多少比例是在過去三年中"},{"start":390.51,"end":413.847,"text":"未受過演訓的召集我們可能要查明一下為什麼要問這個問題就是說現在已經去參加這個就是在這一次有將近你說九十幾名的這個被疫易難有多少是在過去三年內沒有受過演訓召集的我要提這個問題的意思就是說如果他們大部分都沒有受過演訓召集就馬上要去這個救災的話事實上會存在著安全跟執勤的風險我主要要問的是這個"},{"start":419.771,"end":447.537,"text":"這個部分我們現階段沒有做調查他之前是不是有接受演訓招集也就是我們後續我們後續要做大幅度的給他們做訓練比較多的訓練就是因為他們任務的關係我今天要凸顯這個問題就是說你們去年已經召集了5萬多人嘛照理說應該是有很高一個比例是有做過演訓召集那目前你們沒有這個資料對 我知道那但是就是說會後是不是可以提供給我們那我想要表達的重點就是說"},{"start":448.857,"end":476.788,"text":"應該是要讓他們有受過這個演訓召集之後才能夠上場去做救援我同意但是我跟委員報告就是我們在做這個演訓召集的這個人數呢是尊重花蓮縣政府他們去把這些人找出來我的意思是說他們有沒有做過訓練我們再去查明一下再跟委員報告就是我希望未來能夠去做救援的人他都是有做過這些訓練他上場這樣才能夠不外保障他自己的安全也真正能夠救災有有有我們會朝著這方面謝謝委員的指教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時21分）謝謝召委。請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。昨天又有幾位藝人因為閃兵被拘提、逮捕，這件事情其實已經鬧了一段時間，說實在，平常看到這些藝人在螢幕面前都是活力十足而且身體非常健朗，可是每次到要當兵的時候，要嘛就是可以免役，要嘛就是可以轉服替代役，所以讓很多的年輕人還有家長都覺得，事實上是非常不公平。我們知道健保制度從84年實施以來，照理說，衛福部已經全面掌握全國民眾完整的健康資料。我們看到這些藝人平常都活蹦亂跳，但是到了當兵的時候，就突然出現身體不適或罕見疾病，所以本席要請問部長，健保資料跟體位審查是否有整合的機制？"],["劉部長世芳：目前沒有。因為中間有一個叫做體檢，那個體檢就是根據兵役法，由內政部跟國防部一起把它完成。"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前沒有這樣的整合機制嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：目前還沒有。因為整合這個機制還涉及到個資的部分。"],["許委員宇甄：在申請變更體位的時候，照理說，相關單位應該要參考一下個人的健保就醫紀錄，就是他平常有沒有這些異常，或他平常有沒有這樣的用藥紀錄，而不是在短期內就有這樣的醫療紀錄。我覺得像這樣類似高風險的造假，是不是應該要有一個專責小組來複審？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員關心。您講到重點，也就是他平常身體非常健康，為什麼到要服兵役的時候，突然身體就有狀況？我們要來處理這個部分的漏洞，現在也朝著這個機制在發展。至於相關的初檢跟複檢，我是不是請役政司長很快跟委員回應一下？好嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：沒關係，這個部分後續再給我的辦公室資料，因為今天時間比較短。接下來我想請教的是，面對社會對閃兵的不滿，因為這段時間吵得沸沸揚揚，政府有沒有什麼具體的行動計畫，重拾年輕世代對服兵役的信心跟信任？"],["劉部長世芳：針對整個體檢制度上的漏洞，我剛剛有跟委員報告過了，包括在複檢或體檢的過程當中，是不是有些漏洞要補齊，我們也發現到閃兵背後有一些是犯罪集團。"],["許委員宇甄：甚至包括醫生，若醫生不配合，他怎麼有辦法出具這樣的證明？"],["劉部長世芳：對，據我們現在所知，包括這一次的案例裡面有某一些特定的不肖醫生，其實地檢署已經在偵辦當中。"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前已經移送法辦就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重司法單位的調查。因為他……"],["許委員宇甄：我只是問，有沒有移送法辦？"],["劉部長世芳：應該會，跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：因為剛剛講說你們已經主動請地檢署展開調查嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們已經移送了，但是偵查的進度因為要非常專業，你要看得懂病歷表裡面的這些東西，必須要跟衛福部……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，所以本席在這邊是建議內政部應該建立一個健保資料和體位審查系統的串聯機制，由衛福部、國防部大家共同審查，如果發現有這樣一個健康不符的狀況的時候，我們就主動啟動複檢的機制。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們朝著這個方向努力。"],["許委員宇甄：要集體管控我們的採檢，避免假病歷的出現，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝，兩位可以請回，部長，麻煩你。我接下來要請教的是有關替代役備役的召集，部長可以看到以下這個表，就是我們的替代役備役役男演訓召集人數，從105年的一千多人到現在，去年113年預估是5萬8,618人，最後結訓的是5萬0,052人。我們可以看到過去政府對替代役役男召集跟演訓是如此疏於規劃，一直到去年才有這樣子一個大規模的演訓召集活動，是怎麼樣的一個狀況？如果是這樣子大幅度的增加，到底是出於災防跟社會韌性的考量，還是因為兩岸局勢的惡化，政府已經在為最壞的狀況做準備？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個是內政委員會要求我們把備役替代役的演訓召集要實務上面來處理，所以才會有跳升這麼多。"],["許委員宇甄：所謂實務上來處理是怎樣？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請役政司跟您補充？"],["沈司長哲芳：報告召委，之前幾屆的委員會都有說我們替代役之前的備役召集人數都一千多人，跟國軍差距太多，是希望我們能夠做更大量的召集訓練，所以我們就逐年來增加。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你可以看到增加的幅度已經不是一倍、兩倍，而是幾十倍，如果像你所說的，以前都是因為災防跟社會韌性，其實災防每年都有，風災、地震每年都有，但是災防跟社會韌性的部分就增加到五萬多的替代役男，所以當然就會讓大家懷疑，是不是因為兩岸局勢已經惡化，大家在為最壞的狀況做準備？"],["沈司長哲芳：跟委員報告，除此之外，我們替代役在112年之後因為任務的轉型，以往替代役都是在政府機關做所謂的公共事務輔助性工作跟社會公益服務，後來我們替代役轉型要做民防、做救災的工作……"],["許委員宇甄：相關的這個部分，我想我們都知道。"],["沈司長哲芳：是、是。"],["許委員宇甄：但我今天要問的問題就是，因為以前是疏於演練，現在開始我們有一個演訓召集的比例提高到這麼高，我現在要請教部長，在這一次的馬太鞍堰塞湖潰壩之後，內政部首次召開勤務召集，直接讓備役替代役男上場救災，剛剛部長有講人數大概近百人，你們召集120人達到九成，差不多就是……"],["劉部長世芳：95、96人，大概九成左右。"],["許委員宇甄：對，差不多近百人，請問有多少比例是在過去三年中未受過演訓的召集？"],["劉部長世芳：我們可能要查明一下。"],["許委員宇甄：我為什麼要問這個問題……"],["劉部長世芳：就是說現在已經去參加這個……"],["許委員宇甄：就是在這一次你說有將近九十幾名的備役役男，有多少在過去三年內沒有受過演訓召集的？我要提這個問題的意思就是說，如果他們大部分都沒有受過演訓召集就馬上要去救災的話，事實上會存在安全跟執勤的風險，我主要要問的是這個。"],["沈司長哲芳：這個部分我們現階段沒有調查他之前是不是有接受演訓召集……"],["許委員宇甄：好，是不是會後……"],["沈司長哲芳：我們後續要大幅度給他們做比較多的訓練，就是因為他們任務的轉型。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我今天要凸顯這個問題，你們去年已經召集了五萬多人，照理說應該有很高的比例是有做過演訓召集，我知道目前你們沒有這個資料，但是會後是不是可以提供給我們？我想要表達的重點就是說，應該是要讓他們有受過演訓召集之後才能夠上場去救援。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我同意，但是我跟委員報告，我們在做演訓召集的人數是尊重花蓮縣政府，他們去把這些人找出來。"],["許委員宇甄：我的意思是說他們有沒有做過訓練？"],["劉部長世芳：我們再去查明一下，再跟委員報告。"],["許委員宇甄：我希望未來去救援的人都是有做過這些訓練，這樣他上場才能夠保障他自己的安全，也真正能夠救災，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：有、有、有，我們會朝著這方面，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝許宇甄委員的質詢。剛剛委員所說的，你們要再去辦公室跟他解釋一下。"],["劉部長世芳：要提供書面資料……"],["主席：對、對、對，你們要提供一下。","我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： 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收集意見希望行政單位能真正的理解問題但常常因為時間有限還沒有談到核心就必須結束"},{"start":17.41,"end":31.217,"text":"所以很多政策的討論其實都需要更充足的時間才能講清楚也讓各部會有機會好好說明所以今天如果時間稍微有超過一丟丟所以也誠請我們召委能夠從容一下讓我們可以把重點問題討論完整畢竟這些都是關乎民眾權益的重要議題 謝謝"},{"start":44.079,"end":50.711,"text":"好 我們有請內政部議政司司長"},{"start":55.761,"end":82.512,"text":"市長好我們一南依法就是有服兵役的義務但事實上我們看到的替代役免役的確定早已被社會質疑是就是有錢人的特權就像今年初爆出就是藝人假的病例逃兵案還有王大陸陳零九的這些藝人"},{"start":83.362,"end":102.889,"text":"花錢買診斷證明成功逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃"},{"start":113.177,"end":124.88,"text":"是這個部分我們發現到這個問題事實上就是我們在有一個判處免疫體位的這些案件都必須要送到我們"},{"start":126.372,"end":144.891,"text":"體會審查委員會那麼我們分這個初選跟複選那初選的時候發現到有問題我們就會提到這個複選就是複選這個機制是我們跟各醫協會的派出來的醫生專業的醫師我們共同來討論相關的案件那"},{"start":146.212,"end":165.579,"text":"會發現到這個高血壓這個案件是因為我們在審查委員會發現到很多類似集中的這個案件案件相當多所以我們在前年的年底發現到之後我們在今年初我們就主動的把相關的案件送到地檢單位來做偵辦所以這個部分就是我們在體會審查委員會裡面就"},{"start":166.918,"end":186.138,"text":"有發揮到這樣的一個功能那後續這個部分有些案件因為體溫區分標準的規範還不夠嚴謹的部分我們也發現到這個問題所以我們跟國防部就來啟動體溫區分標準的修正好 除了醫療證明的漏洞所以剛才你說就是"},{"start":187.506,"end":213.069,"text":"就是很多的把關啦但是還是有那麼多的就是醫療證明的漏洞不管是家庭的因素還是宗教的因素申請替代役也被網友質疑濫用所以請問我們的醫政司如何嚴格驗證這些申請因為剛才你講的是有但是除了這樣還有沒有"},{"start":214.141,"end":241.663,"text":"有沒有更讓大家就是說你們沒有濫用這樣是這個因為標準的修訂是配合我們的兵役證之後來做調整所以剛才委員有示教就是說有關你家庭因素的部分以往是相對的比較寬鬆那我們已經做了一個標準的修正了這個標準的修正之後我們已經很大部分本來是可以服補充便或者服替待遇的都已經移到"},{"start":242.13,"end":269.646,"text":"到長邊縣議題為了以往這個部分差不多有五千多人那現在這個部分呢只有三千多人來扶替代役那這個替代役呢我們這些家庭因素的替代役我們現在就把他們規劃訓練為這個防災式的訓練以後到公所裡面去應用但是因為我看到你們的報告裡面都半年了但是沒有一個真正的作為啦所以我們看到你說查出了一百多件無病歷史就是"},{"start":270.626,"end":281.15,"text":"突然就是有得病的可疑案例顯示就是我們陷阱的審查機制確實有在漏洞所以我們希望說這個後續的處理的進度還有其中多少案件確認是偽造還有我們的我們的醫政司是否是已經追回就是散兵的義男的義務移送司法"},{"start":296.815,"end":297.717,"text":"因為我們看到你講了 越講越多但是半年了 我們在你報告裡面我們沒有看到的具體的計畫跟作為啦"},{"start":306.178,"end":327.91,"text":"有我們都有按照這個步驟配合地檢署的偵辦我們目前都有跟他們來配合那些有些案件因為是監察不公差所以我們還是沒有對外來做宣布那這個部分呢我們都積極的在有在配合這個請委員放心我們不慌不腫啦一定這個只要是涉及逃避兵役我們絕不寬待"},{"start":329.568,"end":349.419,"text":"很好我們因為身為主管機構所以我們希望就是監討為什麼就是有這樣的漏洞還有長期的存在也越來越增加對不對昨天就是也有也有其他的案件的產生所以我們只是說不能單靠就是罰金的制度"},{"start":350.095,"end":376.626,"text":"是否真正能防止有錢就能散兵的亂象是否知識雜種對頂替的他人或者介紹他人頂替的行者這個就是想要問你的要有一個最重的或者是怎麼樣的行則讓他們才覺得說要必須不能再去做這件事情"},{"start":376.909,"end":404.926,"text":"是 這個剛才我們已經報告過了包含部長 包含國防部我們取得共識之後我們在三個月以內就會提出法案行政委員來給我們指導好 我們謝謝司長這些問題的核心都是公平都要是公平 一定強調公平兵役公平是國人最重要的事對 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謝謝召委 我們請劉部長請安保電委員好部長好 也跟您先請教一下因為這兩天這個逃兵風暴 延燒啊那看到說其實我們內政部目前掌握除了目前已經偵辦的20多位還有大概92件已經送檢掉了所以總共大概是120多件在這個133總共133件在這個犯罪集團裡面嗎"},{"start":31.256,"end":56.693,"text":"很有可能因為大家都集中在閃冰藝人那其實還有一些大家可能沒有這種藝人光環的那我們發現到我們在清查的過程當中就是醫師所出具的診斷書或者是幫忙協助的這些醫院的醫療裡面是不是有出現問題那這相關的這個部分我們查出來以後已經移送給地檢署來做下一步的偵辦"},{"start":57.699,"end":76.573,"text":"好謝謝部長因為這個我非常好奇的是說目前手上這個133人之外到底這個規模到底有多大因為包括部長其實剛也提到說現在台灣免疫的比例大概是16%可是其實鄰近的國家包括韓國跟新加坡其實大概都是5%而已"},{"start":77.714,"end":100.947,"text":"所以如果在這樣的預估之下你們有沒有預估說接下來主動清查下去大概還有多少人數有可能是面臨逃兵的這個問題報告委員這樣子是一個非常好的方向我們大概有兩個目前在這個體檢或是增兵的過程當中是不是有一些不孝的醫師或是醫療院所"},{"start":101.587,"end":115.966,"text":"跟著做這個開具不實的證明讓後面的兵役徵集單位出現這樣子的一個錯誤的判斷那這個部分的我們除了尊重地檢署在偵辦之外那我們可能會跟國防部呢就提出假的這個這個體檢的資料的話"},{"start":120.351,"end":125.253,"text":"要跟他的健保制度來做勾擊也就是他平常的時候血壓都正常那為什麼要徵兵檢查的時候血壓突然竄高那這個部分呢譬如說國防部他們有提出一個想法就是說如果他有這種狀況提出復檢的時候呢可能要求他住院"},{"start":136.839,"end":149.629,"text":"讓他知道說他是不是刻意去吃藥或是有刻意什麼狀況然後把他降成原來他是屬於在健保卡裡面的就醫的紀錄裡面的這樣子才是真正的一個就醫證明那這些呢都要啟動這個程序的時候還必須要跟我們的醫檢單位也就是衛福部做詳細的這個說明跟詳細的溝通那如果這一套系統可以完成的話"},{"start":160.618,"end":185.874,"text":"就會完成我們跟內政部跟那個國防部所說的這個體會標準或者是體檢的過程當中怎麼樣防止這個漏洞往這方面來發展那另外就是我們也會尊重立委所說的部分就是說如果你提供造成這個兵役上面變成免役或是變成替代役的話那不要只有六個月的這樣子的一個刑期也許要往上但是往上也要有上限這個上限呢我們"},{"start":186.434,"end":204.132,"text":"必須要再跟國防部再做一個比較橫平式的檢討那也會詢問那個法務部他們的意見好 謝謝部長的說明這就是我非常想要理解的就是接下來到底我們預期第一個現在逃兵的這個人數的規模到底有多大你們手上有掌握嗎"},{"start":206.141,"end":214.803,"text":"我們目前就是掌握到133個那後續我們還都有在清查所以這個主動清查的程序會持續下去對 我們會持續好 這是我第一個要知道的第二個就是剛剛部長說的其實這個是接下來最重要的事因為其實昨天我們顧立雄部長他其實有提到說接下來會加嚴這個免疫的標準但我認為加嚴免疫的標準只是說這個BMI未來可能"},{"start":234.026,"end":248.552,"text":"會提高或者是說接下來可能會納入更多的人口但除此之外我認為最重要的是防弊因為剛剛部長提到一個非常重要的重點就是這個中間還有非常多的可能是前客可能是協助造假的醫師"},{"start":249.792,"end":272.794,"text":"這是整個犯罪集團啊這些人必須要通通的抓出來才可以知道說即便未來你們加嚴標準提高了未來要納入人口更多了但是如果沒有抓到這些作弊的人都沒有用嘛對 所以如何加嚴這個免疫審查的標準這個我認為是內政部接下來最重要的責任好 謝謝委員的指教就是我們"},{"start":273.875,"end":290.105,"text":"也沒有跟委員報告其實某一些特定的不肖醫師啊地檢署有掌控OK那他會跟衛福部來做勾結好那基於這個信賴的原則我們就是以衛福部他們勾結出來的原則讓他們自己會移送到這個地檢單位"},{"start":291.946,"end":295.447,"text":"好謝謝部長的補充說明喔那最後刑期的部分當然因為現在大家詬病的就是說買逃兵這件事情太容易了你可能十萬塊就可以買到一張造假的病歷那後來就算被抓到了罰金也只要罰個十幾萬等於是你總共加起來二十幾萬就可以完整買到逃兵的程序大家說哇"},{"start":315.051,"end":330.999,"text":"好便宜喔好划算喔千萬不要讓這件事情變成大家認為是一個可以鑽的漏洞兵役制度的公平性跟國家的安全絕對不能建立在這種被大家這種非常賤價的風評之上好嗎 拜託部長"},{"start":335.985,"end":350.953,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想就是我們查出了他如果是閃兵或逃兵的時候他在36歲除役之前還是要回來服役但是36歲以後會有其他的方式這一點我們正想把這個漏洞再補齊"},{"start":351.752,"end":378.04,"text":"好這個也要拜託畢竟追溯期還有20年嘛這個20年我相信都還是可以能抓都還是可以抓得到的那最後一點時間請教一下因為大家都在講說這一次我們是首次的讓這個被疫的替代疫來進行勤務的召集那我認為這個經驗真的非常非常的寶貴那當然也有很多要檢討的地方可不可以請部長跟我們明明確的告訴我們你們目前"},{"start":379.1,"end":403.6,"text":"實行出來經驗是什麼有沒有檢討那下一次會如何精進呢其實因為在第一批次結訓的時候我有到現場那我看到其實每一個參加備役替代役的藝男他們都覺得很有成就感可以幫忙解除災區的困擾尤其是他們自己的家鄉但是後續有提到說能不能根據他們的專長來做專用"},{"start":405.151,"end":429.102,"text":"那就表示說我們在勤務召集的過程當中我們一定要跟縣市地方政府來配合說他的專長在什麼地方那未來分派其他在救災的任務的時候呢比較有比較高的效率但是我們也看到說90幾個人120幾個人出去的時候其他的效率會非常高他不是一般的流動的部分跟他講說這個結果裡面你兩天要完成什麼工作他其實兩天就全部完成"},{"start":429.562,"end":447.505,"text":"那是因為是群策群力的關係那當然在帶對關裡面的包括地方政府或者是中央政府的我們未來還會跟防災體系互相結合所以在做專長專用的分配的時候更能夠馬上精準的去知道說哪個地方是最需要替代役這些人力幫忙的"},{"start":447.865,"end":473.312,"text":"好謝謝部長說明我最後補充一個點因為其實我這邊接到的經驗他們也都說這個經驗非常好而且這樣的召集對他們來說都是一個榮譽但是呢他們的意見反而是說覺得工作量太少了他們希望自己可以再更有效率的做更多事情那我覺得這是讓我很感佩的地方所以第一個如果未來這樣子替代役的效率其實很高那其實可以再賦予更多的責任給他們"},{"start":474.392,"end":499.933,"text":"第二個也有替代役跟我反映說機具的分配包括說需要一些專業的機具以及現場的這些不管是說從鏟子手套等等這些該給他們的都要明確的直接的給他們第三個就是剛剛講到的專長分配未來一定都要更適材適所讓第一時間召集這些替代役的時候大家都知道自己的專長可以貢獻在什麼地方好我們會多做溝通好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時5分）謝謝召委，我們請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。先跟您請教一下，因為這兩天逃兵風暴延燒，我們看到內政部目前的掌握，除了已經偵辦的二十多位，還有大概92件，已經送檢調了，所以總共大概是一百二十多件……"],["劉部長世芳：133件。"],["黃委員捷：喔！總共133件，在這個犯罪集團裡面嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：很有可能，因為大家都聚焦在閃兵藝人，其實還有一些沒有這種藝人光環的，在清查的過程當中我們發現到，醫師所出具的診斷書或者是幫忙協助的這些醫院的醫療裡面是不是有出現問題，相關的部分我們查出來以後已經移送給地檢署來做下一步的偵辦。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。我非常好奇的是說，除了目前你們手上掌握的這133人之外，這個規模到底有多大？因為包括部長剛剛也提到，現在臺灣免役的比例大概是16%，可是其實鄰近的國家包括韓國跟新加坡大概都是5%而已，在這樣的預估之下，你們有沒有預估接下來主動清查下去，大概還有多少人有可能面臨逃兵的問題？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這是一個非常好的方向，我們大概分為兩個部分，在體檢或是徵兵的過程當中，是不是有一些不肖的醫師或是醫療院所開具不實的證明，讓後面的兵役徵集單位出現這樣的錯誤判斷，這個部分，我們除了尊重地檢署的偵辦，也可能會跟國防部就提出假的體檢資料部分，跟他的健保資料來做勾稽，也就是他平常時血壓都正常，為什麼要徵兵檢查的時候血壓就突然竄高，就這個部分，國防部有提出一個想法，就是如果他有這種狀況，提出複檢的時候可能要要求他住院，才能夠知道他是不是刻意去吃藥或是否刻意造成什麼狀況，以檢視他是否符合原本健保卡裡面就醫紀錄的狀況，這樣才是真正的就醫證明。要啟動這樣的程序，還必須要跟我們的醫檢單位也就是衛福部做詳細的說明及詳細溝通，如果這一套系統可以完成，就會完成內政部跟國防部所說的體位區分標準，或是在體檢的過程當中怎麼樣防止這個漏洞，往這方面來發展。","另外，我們也尊重立委所說的部分，就是如果因為提供的證明造成在兵役上變成免役或是變成替代役，不要只有六個月的刑期，也許要往上，但是往上也要有上限，這個上限我們必須再跟國防部做一個比較衡平式的檢討，也會詢問法務部的意見。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明，這就是我非常想要理解的，我們目前預期逃兵的人數規模到底有多大，你們手上有掌握嗎？"],["沈司長哲芳：我們目前就是掌握到133位，後續我們都還有再清查，包括有接到……"],["黃委員捷：所以主動清查的程序會持續下去？"],["沈司長哲芳：對，我們會持續。"],["黃委員捷：好，這是我第一個要知道的。第二個就是剛剛部長說的，其實這是接下來最重要的事，因為昨天顧立雄部長有提到接下來會加嚴免役標準，但我認為加嚴免役標準只是BMI可能會提高，或是說接下來可能會納入更多人口，但除此之外，我認為最重要的是防弊，因為剛剛部長提到一個非常重要的重點，就是這中間還有非常多的，可能是掮客、可能是協助造假的醫師，這是整個犯罪集團，這些人必須要通通抓出來，因為即便未來你們把標準加嚴、提高了、納入的人口更多了，但是如果沒有抓到這些作弊的人，那就都沒有用嘛！所以如何加嚴免役審查的標準，這個部分我認為是內政部接下來最重要的責任。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，跟委員報告，其實某些特定的不肖醫師，地檢署也有掌控，它會跟衛福部來做勾稽。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個再麻煩。"],["劉部長世芳：基於信賴原則，我們就是以衛福部勾稽出來的為原則，他們自己會移送到地檢單位。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的補充說明。最後在刑期的部分，因為現在大家詬病的就是買逃兵這件事情太容易了，可能10萬塊就可以買到一張造假的病歷，後來就算被抓到了，罰金也只要罰個十幾萬，等於是總共加起來二十幾萬就可以完整買到逃兵的程序，大家說：「哇！好便宜喔！好划算喔！」千萬不要讓這件事情變成是一件大家認為可以鑽的漏洞，兵役制度的公平性跟國家的安全絕對不能建立在這種非常賤價的風評之上，好嗎？拜託部長。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的指教，如果我們查出他是閃兵或逃兵，在他36歲除役之前，還是要回來服役，但是36歲以後會有其他的方式，有關這一點我們正想把這個漏洞再補齊。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個也要拜託，畢竟追溯期還有20年嘛，我相信能抓都還是可以抓得到的。","最後一點時間，請教一下，因為大家都在講說這一次我們是首次讓備役替代役來進行勤務的召集，我認為這個經驗真的非常、非常地寶貴，當然也有很多要檢討的地方，可不可以請部長明確地告訴我們，你們目前執行出來的經驗是什麼？有沒有檢討，下一次會如何精進呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是，其實在第一梯次結訓的時候我有到現場，我看到每一個參加備役替代役的役男都覺得很有成就感，可以幫忙解除災區的困擾，尤其是他們自己的家鄉，但是後續有提到說能不能根據他們的專長來做專用，就表示我們在勤務召集的過程當中，我們一定要跟縣市地方政府來配合，了解他的專長在什麼地方，未來在分派其他救災任務時會有比較高的效率；但是我們也看到，當九十幾個人、一百二十幾個人出去的時候，其實效率會非常高，他不是一般的流動部分，跟他講說在這個裡面，你兩天要完成什麼工作，他其實兩天就全部完成，那是因為群策群力的關係。"],["黃委員捷：是，好。"],["劉部長世芳：當然在帶隊官的部分，包括地方政府或者是中央政府的，我們未來還會跟防災體系互相結合，如此，在做專長專用的分配時，更能夠馬上精準地知道哪個地方是最需要替代役的這些人力幫忙。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明。我最後補充一個點，以我這邊接到的回饋，他們也都說這個經驗非常好，而且這樣的召集對他們來說都是一個榮譽，但是他們的意見反而是覺得工作量太少了，他們希望自己可以再更有效率地做更多事情，我覺得這是讓我很感佩的地方，所以第一個，因為這樣的替代役的效率其實很高，未來可以再賦予更多的責任給他們；第二個，也有替代役跟我反映有關機具的分配，包括一些專業的機具以及現場的工具，不管是鏟子、手套等等，這些該給他們的都要明確地直接給他們；第三個就是剛剛講到的專長分配，未來一定都要更適才適所，在第一時間召集這些替代役的時候，讓大家都知道自己的專長可以貢獻在什麼地方。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會多做溝通。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝黃捷委員的質詢。","接下來請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： 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謝謝委員的關心我給委員做一個補充報告"},{"start":182.823,"end":209.759,"text":"我们刚刚在回应媒体的时候有特别提到112年的体位标准修正以后结果免疫率打16%那太高了因为我们现在的健保制度还有加上体检其实都很好很多慢性病或其他的病其实都可以处理得很好的所以会发生这样的病目前为止我们看到的就是说高血压还有增重"},{"start":210.419,"end":213.562,"text":"自己吃大口的扁平族勢力或者是精神系統這些都是在這一次這個由地檢署他們發動要偵查的時候為什麼會出現這種假的病例或者是購買來的病例所以我們也要呼籲就是說本來"},{"start":232.181,"end":240.245,"text":"這個服兵役就是國民的義務而且服兵役呢這是很公平的本來是四個月你就不去做兵現在一年也不去做兵我覺得沒意思啦其實這樣子就是沒有達到我們自己國民應盡的義務那為了這樣的部分呢我們跟國防部在明年四月會把這個體位的這個標準或者是檢測不要出現漏洞的部分會給它補齊因為部隊本身在這裡"},{"start":261.377,"end":264.501,"text":"差不多你也有解釋啦在這裡我覺得你剛才有說過跟我們的健保這麼多年來如果大家的身體好、健康、健康如果要做免費的事就沒辦法啦"},{"start":279.281,"end":281.683,"text":"所以在這個住小人到大人的身體檢查我們可以著重於健保卡這關再來剛才補充的你說貧富族 貧貧族那些人說"},{"start":297.839,"end":302.543,"text":"阿姆爹阿姆爹的那種的我們講真的那種的都沒辦法改變啦他出生的他比較大的有沒有就知道啦所以你們看那個孤獨孤獨的裁定他不可以做嘛所以那種的看得很清楚的是這個心中跟這個高飛鴨跟說實在的那個有的高飛鴨我真的他不是本人去跟"},{"start":328.285,"end":331.967,"text":"醫生傳統的,不是本人經歷的也有有有的吃藥下去,讓他血壓高的也有對所以沒錯,這個問題非常要緊再來剛才有說,我們運盲不能一做不對,再發生風差而已要來改善,不要做了"},{"start":356.121,"end":360.886,"text":"在這裏我們要拿去這條法律的時候要讓他能夠 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報告委員就是有關於那個在提高這個刑度的部分我們這邊其實主要整個大方向基於這個兵役的那個公平性來講的話我們是在支持的一個部分只是說在一些刑期他那個設定上面我們這邊再跟內政部再做一個研議因為我覺得這次要再研議因為我覺得這個事情不是早就發生了"},{"start":417.165,"end":423.831,"text":"一定發生很久的所以我們要積極去處理以上保庭局司長跟我們公佈的本事有一些還沒說完我用書面報告麻煩跟我回答以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["王委員美惠：部長要不要先喝個水？"],["劉部長世芳：沒關係，沒問題，謝謝委員的關心。"],["王委員美惠：部長，這幾天，尤其昨天，我們有看到因為造假病歷逃兵，看起來你們一般都只是檢查高血壓而已嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不只、不只，還有蠻多的，就是閃兵。"],["王委員美惠：還有什麼？部長，你說的不只可能是，他有寫關於脊椎的、心臟的疾病，在這裡我要跟司長及部長說，不管他是否有錢，不管他是否為演藝人員，身為中華民國的男子漢要當兵，沒當兵還用這種手段逃兵，我覺得非常不應該。現在是讓大家覺得演藝圈人士為了自己的演藝工作，所以不想要當兵的時候，應該是有很多人會做出這種手法。部長，說實在我想不到，我真的想不到，因為身為一個男孩子、男子漢在臺灣生活長大，他不想當兵，從小到大，國家保護他、家庭保護他，他應該要當兵卻不當，所以今天本席排這個主題來探討，昨天也看到每個人事後都說得很好聽，說本來要出來自首，但是想一想會害怕就不敢出來，他知道他做錯了，所以懺悔，而且還能緩刑，這樣就沒了！如果是這樣，我覺得這個問題會愈來愈大、愈來愈多，因為在選舉的時候胡亂誣賴說人家的兒子沒當兵什麼的，到現在是確確實實用錢去買就可以不用當兵，所以部長在這裡你要提供什麼意見？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我跟委員補充報告，我們剛剛在回應媒體的時候有特別提到，112年體位標準修正以後，結果免役率（不用當兵者）達16%，這樣太高了，因為我們現在的健保制度還有加上體檢其實都很好，很多慢性病或其他的病都可以處理得很好了，所以會發生這樣的弊病，目前為止我們看到的就是有高血壓、增重、扁平足、視力或者是精神系統等，這些都是在這一次由地檢署發動要偵查為什麼會出現這種假的病歷或者是購買來的病歷，所以我們也要呼籲，本來服兵役就是國民的義務，而且服兵役……"],["王委員美惠：對啊！這是很光榮的。"],["劉部長世芳：本來4個月你就不去當兵，現在1年也不去當兵，我覺得沒意思啦！其實這樣子就是沒有達到國民應盡的義務，為了這部分，我們與國防部在明年4月會把體位標準或者是檢測不要出現漏洞的部分補齊。"],["王委員美惠：部長，本席在這裡也跟你探討，你已經解釋了，你剛剛有說我們的健保這麼齊全，也把大家的身體顧得這麼強壯、健康，但如果要當兵去體檢的時候就不一樣了，所以從小到大的身體檢查，我們可以著重健保卡這關；再來，剛才部長說的扁平足，就是像人家說「鴨母蹄」那種的，我們講真的，那種都沒辦法改變，他伸腳踩下去有沒有就會知道，所以你們看幾度、幾度才會裁定他不用當兵，那種看得很清楚，反而是心臟及高血壓的部分，說實在，有的人還很惡劣，他不是本人去量，而是跟醫師串通，不是本人去量的也有。"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["王委員美惠：有的吃藥後讓他的血壓比較高的也有。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員美惠：所以部長，這個問題非常重要。再來，剛才有說，不可以讓他做錯了被發現後只被調查而已，然後再來緩刑，也不用做什麼，在這裡我們要提案讓這條文刑期可以朝六個月以上五年以下來修，因為你們有你們的想法，有關國防部到目前為止的想法，請問哪一位要來回答？"],["劉部長世芳：國防部。"],["盧簡任視察星廷：報告委員，關於提高刑度部分，我們基於兵役的公平性來講的話是站在支持的部分，只是在一些刑期設定上面，我們會跟內政部再做研議。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得你們說支持、支持，然後要再研議，因為我覺得這種事情不是昨天才發生，已經發生很久了，所以我們要積極去處理，以上。","部長、司長跟國防部，本席有一些話還沒說完，我會用書面質詢，麻煩再回復我，以上，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠召委。"],["主席（王委員美惠）：謝謝黃捷委員。","請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： 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報告委員我想分成兩個階段您大概所說的所謂的產值超人是自動自發那是自工嘛 純自工嘛他到底是不是備役或是那個都不重要"},{"start":227.691,"end":255.727,"text":"那這個部分呢 其實我們在最近的馬太安溪告一段落之後也會針對志工以後要怎麼樣做比較好的分配工作會做檢討跟精進的方案那您現在所說的這個備役替代役對 我講的是備役的部分嘛對 所以我們更能夠肯定說我們現在的現役替代役啊要有三張證照就是防災室EMT-1對 我知道 我自己的報告都寫得很清楚這個我覺得很重要因為這一次呢 去參加的現役替代役或備役替代役"},{"start":256.067,"end":284.626,"text":"不管是他們做什麼工作至少沒有什麼受傷啊這些狀況因為我們也會緊張啦你至少把人力確保好我的意思是這樣嘛你現在有一些你會要求他有一定的職能等等既然他有現在訓練都有嘛那就要好好的調度這一批的人力或者是儲備這一批的人力所以其實建議啦看看醫政署這邊也許有個登記平台嘛也就是說我既然有這樣子的職能國家發生災難的時候我也有這樣子的意願去投入救災請你可以做個預先登記嘛因為你內政部其實提供了一個相對還算OK的配套嘛"},{"start":286.087,"end":297.062,"text":"我有工價 我有時數等等這是你們可以政策協調的事情嘛那你如果未來有一個這樣的平台預先登記你是未來不管在哪裡災變發生的時候我手上有一批比較快速的人力可以運用"},{"start":297.799,"end":326.057,"text":"這是本期的政策建議希望做一下參考好 我們在第二梯次的時候已經慢慢在做這方面的改變所以才會有醫護師的人到衛生所去協助對 所以因為你講你剛剛有回答蘇曉慧委員之間你講的志工因為有志願服務法等分屬不同部位但你內政部可以直接掌控的就是替代役嘛因為這完全是內政部主責啦所以說我的意思說針對備役男的人力調度你能不能預先排序他們哪些專長在發生的時候你可以快速調度我是覺得可以做一些政策上的設計這本期第一個建議"},{"start":326.657,"end":345.437,"text":"第二我們談防災現在希望地帶役投入防災等等有很多社區像馬市長非常專家都在做防災社區的推廣跟執行防災社區或任性社區任性社區都很好但問題是這樣這本期的觀察我們從第一線現在越來越多村裡等等他都想要去成立所謂的防災社區但是"},{"start":345.953,"end":360.449,"text":"我想這部長一先做民意代表你也很清楚啊到了村裡的時候你就會發現里長下面很多熱心的林長對不對然後林長同時也是巡守隊很多同時也是環保志工現在加入了防災社區他可能都會一起受訓變成防災室"},{"start":360.971,"end":379.647,"text":"當然這一群核心的人力有多項技能這個對於村裡的工作運作是好事可是他同時也會有問題嘛 對不對就同樣集中一群人然後這一群人可能也許年紀大了一點等等他並沒有充分的運用所有的人力所以本期在這邊做的第二個政策建議是有關社區的防災式的訓練啦你怎麼樣跟你異難的資訊來做結合嘛"},{"start":381.949,"end":404.328,"text":"我就想說義男其實已經有證照他已經有技能了那他可能退役之後他變成備役義男的身份那他未來是他既然要發揮他的功能他其實應該被鼓勵投入社區防災室嘛你至少要讓他跟附近的村里長熟識嘛讓他加入不一定要去硬性的上課啦但是只要有一個管道或一個什麼樣的方式你鼓勵他去就近參與嘛這樣我社區防災室的人力"},{"start":405.028,"end":412.45,"text":"一方面不會給里長造成負擔二方面年齡上的差距就不會那麼的明顯我想也是一個有效調度的方式我跟委員補充一下我們現在的設計方案第一個我們的民政司已經要求全台灣7,448個里長來接受防災室的訓練是有這個基本的概念那現在完成率是25%左右他們其實都覺得這個概念是好的而且我們都是全額補貼"},{"start":429.693,"end":448.945,"text":"然後第二個是我們現在設計叫做防災協作中心就是鄉鎮公所或是區公所下面的村裡如果要成立防災協作中心區公所這邊的話未來我們就是大小這個人數的多寡會配備20名到50名的替代役來協助未來如果有天災的時候幫忙而不是說某個里"},{"start":449.725,"end":470.043,"text":"那這個部分呢他就會接受區公所的指揮因為志工去幫忙是有時間去沒有時間就不去但是如果是接受區公所或是防災協作中心指揮的時候他會比較有條問有組織性來協助既有的防災協作體系這本席尊重但我的意思是講因為很多里長或者是很多里長做防災社區的時候他其實很熱心"},{"start":470.863,"end":499.569,"text":"那有的時候調集人去上課那有些門檻上的一些落差嘛那我的意思說你替代人力可不可以合理來做調度跟補齊嘛一方面讓他更貼近村裡嘛尊重防災協作中心二方面也讓這些防災是真的讓地方是有強力連結的嘛可以在你補充一下我們防災協作中心目前啊甚至配備物資就是緊急發電機或是緊急的濾水器等等這些我們也配備進去那個在這一次的那個國土任性預算裡面我相信在防災裡面你們會做很多努力"},{"start":500.469,"end":502.652,"text":"這一點大概會有上百萬以上的這樣的補助那這個我們還要教導他所以我們很希望說這個國土任性計畫裡面相關這個部分尤其我們全部都是給地方政府不要被凍結"},{"start":514.079,"end":537.735,"text":"我說真的啦 如果說比如說我們這樣 名利的調度啦 防災的配套他其實很集中在防災 然後不要有太多政治力去介入的時候其實對焦 這是純民主應該是好事啦那我就希望說 既然你已經培養了很多 替代藝幾乎都是防災室了嘛那是如何讓這些防災室深入社區被替代藝的防災室還沒那麼多但是現替代藝 只要到成功嶺都一定要"},{"start":538.215,"end":563.311,"text":"對但慢慢會越來越多所以你未來這批人你怎麼讓他跟村裡做結合這是本期的重點而且是最好是他的戶籍所在地當然嘛他就比較知道你住哪裡我就在哪裡服務其實是最好的嘛對而且鄰里也都熟啦不會好像來個陌生人要做什麼事情這就是本期第二個政策建議我希望內部提一些想法跟方案其實我們已經在進行了我剛剛都跟你補充說明了那你就會後把相關的一些資料來做補充我想這樣的一個政策我們希望看到成果可以嗎好謝謝謝謝部長辛苦了好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時48分）謝謝主席，劉部長有請。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安，辛苦了。花蓮馬太鞍溪救災時大概內政部啟動了替代役的召集嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：備役替代役的勤務召集。"],["牛委員煦庭：備役的勤務召集，然後投入救災。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：基本上權益是比照替代役當初的服勤標準。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：要有公假、有交通費還有薪資的一些津貼，至少要確定他來之後不影響他的生活，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，由內政部負責。"],["牛委員煦庭：由花蓮縣政府安排伙食跟住宿，對不對？就本席的了解是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：對，津貼是由內政部負責。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次調動役男協助救災的這個模式，與地方政府的分工溝通是怎麼運作的？順利嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，現役替代役的部分都相當順利，包括桃園市在內，本來花蓮縣政府就有提出其他機具的請求，那人力的請求部分，在現役的調動方面，我剛剛報告過有12個縣市的現役替代役馬上過去，而且其中還有做輪替。"],["牛委員煦庭：現役的當然快，我剛剛講是備役這一部分的召集。"],["劉部長世芳：關於備役的部分，我們設定的條件，第一個，他必須是花蓮縣的戶籍，還有他是備役替代役，所以在勤務召集的過程當中，他的通知時間要有3到5天，你不能夠今天講了明天就去，因為他正在工作。所以第1梯次的動員，雖然我們是標120人，但真正來的大概是九成左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：九成其實是不錯了。"],["劉部長世芳：對，第2梯次也大概是九成左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是你們在開會討論的時候，跟縣政府溝通的過程算順利嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：勤務召集的部分，這是全國第一次，所以花蓮縣政府在處理這個兵役制度上面的公務員會根據相關……"],["牛委員煦庭：比較不習慣一點。"],["劉部長世芳：對，比較不習慣。但是因為，我有下去花蓮……"],["牛委員煦庭：親自協調？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我有跟花蓮縣徐榛蔚縣長講謝謝他願意幫忙，所以從我們開始啟動要做這個勤務召集到真正發布，時間上大概過了五天左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：還算在可控的範圍，人力也有支援到。"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為每個人都是在災害應變中心，事情都非常繁多，我想我們應該互相體諒。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實很好，我是要讚美，我說其實地方政府跟中央政府只要溝通順利，大家群策群力，效果總是不錯的，所以這一點我是持正面態度，我覺得蠻肯定的。","我要順著這個題目往下問，因為我們現在都希望替代役的備役役男可以發揮更多功能，防災也好，民力調度也好，其實應該有一個隨時調度的功能。你第一次在災情的時候用指揮中心指揮官的角色去啟動，當然會有一些些小的摩擦或者是一些適應的時間，但我覺得沒關係，總是啟動了這個事。既然有啟動，而且效果看起來是不錯的，那麼未來這樣子的機制，能不能變成一個也許可長可久或者是更靈活支援的機制？本席的建議是這樣，臺灣難免多災多難，地震、颱風等等，常常有一些特殊狀況，所以其實我們都希望民力能夠有效運用。這一次因為你是首次用召集的方式，所以你要限制地域等等，但在這次的救災我們看到很多人其實是熱血投入，包括鏟子超人等等，那是不是有可能未來也許盤點一下替代役備役役男的人力資源提早地來做，比如做個平臺、登記制，比如就其他縣市，我要自願去救災，有沒有這樣子的機制可以運行？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想分成兩個階段，大概您所說的，所謂的鏟子超人是自動自發式的……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是志工、純志工嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：他到底是不是備役或是那個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那就不重要了。"],["劉部長世芳：都不重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：這個部分，其實我們在最近馬太鞍溪的部分告一段落之後，也會針對志工以後要怎麼樣做比較好的分配工作，會做檢討跟精進的方案。那您現在所說的備役替代役部分，我覺得是一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我講的是替代役部分。"],["劉部長世芳：對，所以我們更能夠肯定說現役的替代役要有3張證照，就是防災士、EMT-1，就是緊急救護……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我知道，你的報告都寫得很清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：這個我覺得很重要，因為這一次去參加的現役替代役或備役替代役，不管他們做什麼工作，至少沒有受傷的這些狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們也會很緊張。"],["牛委員煦庭：你至少要把人力確保好。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是這樣，現在有一些你會要求他有一定的職能等等，既然現在的訓練都有，那你就要好好地調度這一批人力，或者是儲備這一批人力，本席是建議，看看役政署這邊……"],["劉部長世芳：役政司。"],["牛委員煦庭：也許有登記平臺，也就是說，我既然有這樣的職能，國家發生災難的時候我也有這樣子的意願投入救災，其實你可以做個預先登記嘛！因為內政部其實提供了一個相對還算OK的配套，包括有公假、有時數等等，這是你們可以政策協調的事情，如果未來有一個這樣的平臺預先登記，是不是未來不管在哪裡有災變發生的時候，手上有一批比較快速的人力可以運用？這是本席的政策建議，希望做一下參考。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們都希望民力可以充分發揮，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：在第2梯次的時候已經慢慢在做這方面的改變，所以才會有醫護司的人到衛生所協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以你剛剛回答蘇巧慧委員質詢時講的志工、因為有志願服務法等，分屬不同部會，但內政部可以直接掌控的就是替代役，因為這個完全是內政部主責。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我的意思是，針對備役役男的人力調度，你能不能預先排序、他們有哪些專長，發生的時候你可以快速調度，或是可以做一些政策上的設計，這是本席的第一個建議。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二，我們談防災，現在希望替代役投入防災等等，很多社區，像你們的馬次長是專家，都在做防災社區的推廣跟執行韌性社區，都很好，但問題是這樣，這是本席的觀察，我們從第一線看到，現在越來越多村里等等都想要成立所謂的防災社區。但部長以前做過民意代表，我想你也很清楚，到了村里的時候，你就會發現里長下面有很多熱心的鄰長，對不對？鄰長同時也是巡守隊的，很多也同時是環保志工，現在加入防災社區，他可能都會一起去受訓變成防災士。當然這一群核心的人力有多項技能，這個對於村里的工作運作是好事，但同時也會有問題，對不對？就是同樣集中在一群人，然後這群人也許年紀大了一點等等，並沒有充分運用所有人力。","所以本席在這邊做的第二個政策建議是，有關社區的防災士訓練，你怎麼樣跟役男的資訊結合，現在很多役男其實有證照，他已經有技能了，可能退役之後他變成備役役男的身分。那在未來，既然要發揮他的功能，他其實應該被鼓勵投入社區防災士的部分，你至少要讓他跟附近的村里長熟識，讓他加入，不一定要硬性上課，但是總要有個管道或是有什麼樣的方式，你鼓勵他就近參與，這樣社區防災士的人力一方面不會給里長造成負擔，二方面年齡上的差距就不會那麼明顯，我想也是一個有效調度的方式。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員補充一下我們現在的設計方案，第一個，民政司已經要求全臺灣7,448個里長接受防災士訓練，先有基本的概念，現在完成率是25%左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們其實都覺得這個概念是好的。"],["劉部長世芳：而且我們都是全額補貼。然後第二個是，我們現在設計叫作防災協作中心，就是鄉鎮公所或是區公所下面的村里如果要成立防災協作中心，區公所這邊就視人數多寡配備20名到50名替代役協助，未來如果有天災的時候幫忙，而不是某個里，這個部分就會接受區公所的指揮，因為志工幫忙是有時間去，沒有時間就不去，但是如果是接受區公所或是防災協作中心指揮的時候，他會比較有條不紊、有組織性的來協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：有既有的防災協作體系，本席尊重，但我的意思是，因為很多里長或者是很多里想做防災社區的時候，他其實很熱心，但他有的時候調集人去上課有一些門檻上的落差，我的意思是，替代役人力可不可以合理做調度跟補齊，一方面讓他更貼近村里……"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會尊重防災協作中心……"],["牛委員煦庭：二方面也讓這些防災士真的是跟地方有強力連結。"],["劉部長世芳：牛委員，我可以再跟你補充一下，我們防災協作中心目前甚至配備物資，就是緊急發電機或是緊急濾水器等等這些也配備進去，在這次國土韌性預算裡面有編列進去了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我相信在防災裡面你們會做很多努力，這一點本席是很支持的。"],["劉部長世芳：大概會有上百萬以上這樣的補助，這部分我們還要教導他，所以我們很希望國土韌性計畫裡面相關這個部分，尤其我們全部都是給地方政府，能不要被凍結。"],["牛委員煦庭：我說真的啦！比如說這樣的民力調度、防災配套，它其實很集中在防災，然後不要有太多政治力介入的時候……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實對焦，在純民生，應該是好事啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我們都很正面來處理這個事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：我就是希望既然你已經培養很多……替代役幾乎都是防災士了，如何讓這些防災士深入社區？"],["劉部長世芳：備役替代役的防災士還沒那麼多……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，因為是現在才開始訓練。"],["劉部長世芳：但是現役替代役只要到成功嶺都一定要。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，但是慢慢會越來越多。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以未來這一批人力怎麼讓他跟村里做結合，這是本席的重點。"],["劉部長世芳：對，而且最好是他的戶籍所在地。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。"],["劉部長世芳：他就比較知道怎麼樣協作。"],["牛委員煦庭：住哪裡就在哪裡服務其實是最好的，也讓他貢獻所長。"],["劉部長世芳：而且鄰里也都熟啦！不會好像來個陌生人要做什麼事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是本席的第二個政策建議，我希望內政部提一些想法跟方案。"],["劉部長世芳：其實我們已經在進行了，我剛剛都跟你補充說明了。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，請會後補充相關的一些資料。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想這樣的政策我們希望看到成果，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","再來我們請王美惠召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： ( 一 ) 委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「替代役實施條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(二）委員羅美玲等18人擬具「替代役實施條例增訂第五十五條之五條文草案」案、 (三)台灣民\n眾黨黨團擬具「替代役實施條例第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1148601_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}