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謝次長"},{"start":1732.258,"end":1759.576,"text":"訓練參謀次長是助理次長許永祥 許次長陸軍司令部陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉 薛參謀長憲兵指揮部文念忠 文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤 梁參謀長"},{"start":1762.387,"end":1778.303,"text":"資通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 吳永衍 吳副主任國防大學 李承忠 李教育長中科院 李士強 李院長"},{"start":1788.171,"end":1796.094,"text":"本次會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進今天應邀至大院委員會實施業務報告首先對各位委員就各項國防施政的支持表達誠摯感謝本次業務報告已"},{"start":1816.611,"end":1833.63,"text":"敵情威脅及國軍戰備國防施政要項為兩大面向進行說明 敬請委員指教就區域安全情勢部分當前國際戰略環境深受大國競合區域衝突等議題交互影響地緣政治風險持續攀升"},{"start":1834.691,"end":1849.432,"text":"俄乌战争仍成焦灼状态中东以下冲突目前达成停火及人质交换等第一阶段目标与此同时中共积极扩张区域势力企图提升国际影响力在台海进行常态化 灰色地带"},{"start":1850.333,"end":1870.143,"text":"清早形成區域安全嚴峻挑戰台海安全趨勢持續受到國際高度關注近期舉行之G7領袖峰會美日非三方峰會均強調台海和平極為重要顯示維護台海和平穩定已成為國際社會的共識就共軍動態與威脅部分"},{"start":1874.451,"end":1898.933,"text":"共軍於每月3至4次頻率執行所謂聯合戰備進行且各型基建漁業海峽中線平遲役逐漸攀升今年3月17日國軍首次徵獲共軍單日從事兩次聯合戰備進行4月1日至2日東部戰區從事海峽雷霆2025A軍演持續加大對台針對性威懾行動"},{"start":1900.114,"end":1921.949,"text":"此外,中共常態性偵派海警船,除測試我反應,以企圖達成其台海內海化目標。中共利用9月3日擴大閱兵,積極展示並宣傳各類武器裝備,意圖增加對周邊國家軍事威懾力度,以凸顯中共對印太區域安全穩定,以構成多重威脅與挑戰。"},{"start":1923.99,"end":1950.638,"text":"針對共軍與我周邊海空域活動情形本部持續籌建長航時至無人飛行載具提升國軍徵收範圍準確度同時透由共同情報圖像系統提升全面情報感知能力令藉由跨國交流合作管道前瞻區域情勢變化評估當前敵軍行動及未來可能行動模式爭取早期預警"},{"start":1952.386,"end":1970.562,"text":"就中共認知作戰與統戰部分中共對我進行認知作戰及統戰滲透企圖分化我內部團結近來更採取擴張對台行政管轄權的方式意圖壓縮中華民國主權行使空間如今年以來中共抹黑國軍執行企業罔工"},{"start":1972.263,"end":1997.603,"text":"並以舉報懸賞公告從事認知作戰意圖塑造其對台灣有法律管轄權的錯誤印象此外 中共對各階層人員實施無差別接觸之全面誘吸模式吸收少數限退役人員為其收請或協助發展組織此類滲透模式雖屬低成本運作 能構成重大威脅"},{"start":1998.752,"end":2021.481,"text":"面對中共認知作戰及統戰操作,國防部強化官兵愛國信念、敵情意識,並適時宣傳國軍重大演訓,強化國人對國軍的支持與信任。另外,防制中共滲透作為,今年定頒國軍社民人員安全調查作業規定,落實人員安全管控,防止境外勢力滲透。"},{"start":2022.521,"end":2038.149,"text":"就國軍戰備應處部分,針對共軍軍事行動及灰色地帶襲擾,國軍依威脅程度妥善派遣兵力應對,以確保領海、領空與國家安全。本部務實檢視國軍經常戰備時期、突發狀況處置規定、國軍戰備規定與聯合作戰計畫,使各種應變措施合乎時需。"},{"start":2045.592,"end":2068.612,"text":"今年1月休班突發狀況處置規定,即以中共對台灰色地帶關鍵軍事行動預警增核,區分低、中及高強度侵擾模式,使各單位各階層能針對各項突發狀況太陽均熟練處置權責及依據,並能密切協調、整體配合,發揮統合力量。"},{"start":2069.454,"end":2081.789,"text":"另外妥適應處共軍遊言轉戰之威脅針對中共宣告軍演及誣蔽警的威懾行動等洗腦國軍即開設應變中心啟動立即備戰操演派遣三軍部隊以實裝實彈進入戰術位置"},{"start":2084.861,"end":2102.113,"text":"在國防施政要項部分一 深化實戰訓練國軍以聯合作戰計畫為基礎自今年起除既有的漢光演習外增加立即備戰操演等五項聯合作戰演訓使共軍犯台各種可能行動具以發展"},{"start":2102.873,"end":2116.368,"text":"依共軍犯台各種可能行動距離發展演習想定,適切調節分配於2至9月時時,藉以維持高戰備至防衛作戰整備水準,持續深化實戰訓練及塗化狀況。"},{"start":2119.76,"end":2135.805,"text":"應儲能力在實際執行層面今年漢光41號演習首次增加灰色地帶洗澡行動應儲與重生重生防禦兵火力部署作為演練並致重點以動力動員戰力恢復效能"},{"start":2138.649,"end":2158.388,"text":"等重要科目驗證實兵演練期程由歷年的五天四夜調整為十天九夜於七月中旬完成晝夜連續操演訓練為聚焦實戰化訓練要求區域各項連戰演訓亦跳脫驗證計劃格局軍案共軍犯台各項可能行動"},{"start":2161.731,"end":2175.578,"text":"發展演習想定誘導酸金部隊以聯合作戰計畫為基礎驗測各級指揮官臨機決策參謀組織計畫作為以及支援與被支援部隊間聯合行動效能藉以提升"},{"start":2177.641,"end":2200.849,"text":"整體備戰成效二 廣出優質能力因應少子化趨勢國軍持續提升招募效益以軍校正級班為例年度計畫數1476元在各軍院校入力下獲得數1687元國軍將持續應用階段節點管制與資源分配確保如期如止達成年度目標"},{"start":2202.068,"end":2222.871,"text":"此外,鑒於敵情威脅日益增加,國軍部隊擔負戰備任務更加繁重,為展現對官兵的實質照顧,國防部整體檢視軍人待遇結構,自114年4月1日起陸續調整志願與加急等五項方案,其使官兵能安心服役。"},{"start":2224.092,"end":2234.856,"text":"為改善官兵服役環境本部亦積極推動國軍老舊營舍整建目前新安專案已完成87案另115年至120年執行嶄新專案規劃優先辦理官兵營舍及備勤大樓、植物宿舍"},{"start":2246.926,"end":2255.075,"text":"各級官兵亦深刻感受到社會各界對於軍人陸力戰訓守護家園辛勞表達的敬意"},{"start":2255.851,"end":2277.044,"text":"如交通部邀集國際航空公司實施軍人優先登機政策,形塑社會進軍文化,提升軍人社會地位,增進青年從軍意願。為此,專業人才長留久用,經陸力推動各項官兵照顧措施,年度期9月30日留營率為86.7%。"},{"start":2280.707,"end":2306.786,"text":"國軍將持續廣出優質能力以有效維持部隊人員實務經驗及專業職能確保國軍戰力有效發揮三 籌建武器裝備本部依照建構部隊戰力等戰力整建四大重點籌獲各項武器裝備除透過國內委制及商購手段取得針對國內無法自治項目藉由國外現貨市場或對美軍購管道籌獲"},{"start":2308.087,"end":2318.633,"text":"年度迄今已陸續後裝M1A2戰車海馬斯多桿火箭飛彈系統等不對稱防衛任性主戰裝備強化後備戰力方面籌建後備部隊單兵戰鬥裝備配護新式步槍等"},{"start":2328.092,"end":2347.379,"text":"汲取近代戰爭經驗,國軍已將無人系統裝備列為兵力整建重點發展項目。藉由國內民間廠商研發技術轉移或授權生產模式,大量籌貨無人載具,以提升不對稱作戰效應,增加用兵彈性,應處不同威脅。"},{"start":2348.439,"end":2374.016,"text":"目前軍用商規制微型幕後型艦載型無人機軍購籌貨者RT-600M攻擊型無人機以及反制無人機系統等均以今年陸續膠裝此外本部展示與美國合作生產無人載具以自動產品凸顯國防自主政策已見成效未來將持續健全軍工產業在地化確保國防工業供應鏈不受紅色威脅滲透"},{"start":2375.41,"end":2395.673,"text":"其中國際國造部分,新式高階機66架,其114年9月30日累計交機49架。國艦國造部分,新型救難艦1艘及高效能艦艇第一批6艘已交裝,高效能艦艇第二批新一代輕型巡防艦快速布雷艇後續艇持續管制辦理。"},{"start":2397.235,"end":2407.022,"text":"應潛艦國造延期限制114年6月起執行海上航空測試後續將在安全無虞確保品質之前提下逐步達成測試目標為積極應處當面"},{"start":2410.547,"end":2433.618,"text":"敵情威脅 本部依總統台灣之盾政策指導 整合現有防空系統 鏈結各式雷達等高效感知裝備 融匯為擊殺網可依威脅選派士氣攔截武器 形成多層次嚴密的防空之盾 確保我空防安全令會編列特別預算籌貨所需各項裝備 有效提升國軍整體戰力"},{"start":2434.87,"end":2451.944,"text":"四、調整組織變裝因應戰爭、作戰型態轉變等因素國軍組織調整以科技取代能力火力取代傳統兵力為原則配合各式無人系統及人工智慧輔助決策等新興科技導入以建置現代化部隊"},{"start":2453.137,"end":2471.709,"text":"在陸軍主戰部隊部分,自明年起,配合各式裝備貨裝,逐次調整聯兵、步兵旅及炮兵部隊組織邊裝,令各專區依任務特性及戰術應用,配合各型無人機,並新增無人機大隊。"},{"start":2473.01,"end":2499.63,"text":"海軍配合新式艦艇、無人機艇及岸置反艦飛彈貨裝結合陸岸單位及陸戰隊轉型以提升兵海打擊、禁岸水域與特種作戰能力空軍配合防空飛彈、陸用雷達及MQ-9B無人機貨裝調整防空戰管及飛行部隊編組守備及後備部隊則檢討配合各式無人機、自走炮及"},{"start":2500.888,"end":2503.014,"text":"自走火炮及人員運輸車輛等裝備同步調整編組架構"},{"start":2509.42,"end":2537.447,"text":"五 前瞻應用新興科技開源情報人工智慧等新興科技結合傳統載台建構之智慧化作戰體系在現代戰爭中殊微重要尤其人工智慧導入軍事領域大幅提升指揮決策系統及兼增預警能力本部後續將透過建立人工智慧輔助的戰場管理平台提升整體作戰效能與擊殺速度當前在先進國防科技研發方面自動重點於無人載具及反制徵收"},{"start":2540.014,"end":2547.723,"text":"另中科院加速研發簡單武器系統與國內廠商合作開發制項目包括寬頻固態 功率放大器等"},{"start":2549.229,"end":2573.822,"text":"共計27項關鍵技術令本部國防創新小組運用多種途徑籌獲新興科技產品規劃以115年籌獲溪流型無人機等裝備以小批量採購及測品驗證作為後續量產依據同時辦理衛星影像AI自動辨識等案公開徵集作業本部應用國科會產業化圓桌會議機制使國軍獲得"},{"start":2576.844,"end":2604.691,"text":"所需武器裝備同時促進民間產業發展六 居民整合及全民防衛韌性我國今年將全民防衛動員防空與關鍵基礎設施防護演習重新整合為2025城鎮韌性演習其中防空演習擴大驗證民眾實際進入防空疏散避難設施並首次將公共運輸生活消費及機關等場域疏散避難納入演練"},{"start":2605.811,"end":2623.543,"text":"全民防衛動員演習首次採食人食物方式與限地演練改變以往搭台佈景集中呈現更貼近實際情況演練聚焦維持國民生活韌性使民眾在災害來臨時維持日常生活秩序在軍事動員層面114年擴大人力動員"},{"start":2627.145,"end":2643.271,"text":"演習規模及人數演練動員力下達後備軍人報到等科目並結合戰術位置協同縣警消警民防團隊驗證全民防衛動員今年也首度驗證步兵兩棟六旅全旅動員效能將所獲參數作為精進動員準備參舉"},{"start":2647.173,"end":2662.487,"text":"在物力動員部分 在漢光演習 想定架構下下達增購 增用及生產轉換 遂行軍需物資 軍事運輸 軍需工業等動員作業以及軍民醫療系統整合運作"},{"start":2663.966,"end":2688.454,"text":"統合全民總力支援軍事作戰七 拓展友盟安全夥伴關係面對印太區域的戰略挑戰我國堅守自由民主普世價值深化對友盟國家安全交流與合作集合民主陣營力量集體嚇阻中共共同應對地緣政治風險國軍持續依據政策對話等十項"},{"start":2690.229,"end":2704.148,"text":"軍事交流目標深化與美國及其他友盟國家合作並拓展多邊軍事交流機制棄9月30日合計340餘案有效拓展各項合作領域強化與友盟國家"},{"start":2705.649,"end":2729.025,"text":"實質夥伴關係美國為我國重要戰略夥伴國軍持續完善台美溝通管道推進多領域多層次的防衛安全戰略合作逐步拓展及深化合作共同維護台海和平穩定為推展與有盟國家兼之軍事交流與安全合作國軍配合情報分享等領域的安全交流互動共同建構區域防衛機制"},{"start":2730.586,"end":2754.735,"text":"同時透過智庫交流拓展與各國學術學術及政策對話八軍法制度改革陸海工軍產法法及軍人權益事件處理法本部已完成相關執法之修訂等相關整備工作與同年8月6日施行高等軍事法院勤務法庭及地方軍事法院全保會亦同時正式運作"},{"start":2755.715,"end":2778.573,"text":"為建構符合憲法要求之公平審判原則及正當法律程序兼顧人權保障軍隊具力的軍事審判心智本部通盤檢討外社會各界對於軍事審判所提建議擬拒軍事審判法修正查案等法律予以7月31日呈報行政院審查中另外 遏止現役軍人對敵人"},{"start":2782.567,"end":2800.674,"text":"為宣示效忠之行為本部擬拒《陸海公園刑法》第24條修正草案並參採司法院法務部等相關機關意見以完備構成要件本修正草案已完成法制作業程序是行政院審查完畢送請大院建議列為優先審議方案"},{"start":2802.935,"end":2815.202,"text":"九 國防預算編列本部於總統政策指導並考量防衛作戰需求以施政重點妥善籌變預算以達GDP3%以上為目標展現自我防衛決心114年度國防預算按別月標準達9495億元佔GDP比例3.32%其中國防部規劃編列8060億元包括年度預算5614億"},{"start":2831.519,"end":2842.575,"text":"五千六百一十四億元基金預算新增新式戰機及海空戰力提升特別預算以及因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生關係"},{"start":2844.42,"end":2865.433,"text":"與強化防衛人形及部隊戰力規劃編列之特別預算在年度預算方面慈恆籌補各項裝備零護卷與彈藥維持武器裝備高戰備能力令軍事投資持續籌貨與汰換各式武器裝備有關115年度新增特別預算部分"},{"start":2866.013,"end":2881.545,"text":"一因應國際情勢強化經濟社會與民生國安韌性特別條例修正案規劃一百一十五至一百一十六年以一千零八十一億元建置居民自通作業環境韌性以設備效能提升等六案"},{"start":2882.385,"end":2905.174,"text":"另外因應中共正規與非正規軍事威脅以規劃強化防衛任性及部隊陣戰力計畫採購特別條例其借籌編相關預算以建構可視嚇阻戰力守護家園是國軍的使命與責任今年七月漢光演習適逢丹納斯颱風清洗基於中央及地方需求"},{"start":2906.114,"end":2933.152,"text":"檢派世界兵力局機具協同災害救援及復原工作採取演習及任務災防任務並行方式執行令針對本次花蓮光復鄉災情國軍以9月23日起協助執行災害復原工作是受災地區民眾恢復正常生活面對嚴峻敵情及極端氣候"},{"start":2935.089,"end":2953.593,"text":"災害威脅本部積極建軍備戰並務實推動各項重大政策持續提升國軍整體戰力以守護國家安全及人民生命財產所提各項重大法案及相關預算編列懇請各位委員先進支持及指導謝謝大家"},{"start":2963.735,"end":2967.141,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長現在補充介紹王定宇委員另外請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處那議事錄確定"},{"start":2980.559,"end":2995.729,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請王定宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":3017.754,"end":3046.833,"text":"是 王委員部長早幾個問題要請教部長第一個我們當然最近大概連續三波中共在點名懸賞通緝不管是軍情局 資通電軍或者新戰大隊等等當然這個做賊的很抓賊法律也不及於台灣那他的內容拼湊而來不見得正確這個我們都知道我就不重複了我要請教就是說畢竟他一直撈到了一些資料"},{"start":3047.814,"end":3058.592,"text":"我們國防部對於洩漏的管道還有亡羊補牢把這個洞堵上了沒有那現在是軍安總隊在管這一塊呢還是哪個單位在管這一塊是不是先請教部長"},{"start":3060.876,"end":3078.409,"text":"我想我們就這些任意拼湊的這些相關的資料我們第一個還是要說明這個是屬於中共認知作戰的一部分當然啦 產生一種心理規則所以我們的部分我們會要求這些這個"},{"start":3083.444,"end":3107.059,"text":"同仁在社群媒體上面在從事任何相關的這些發佈的時候不要做任何部長 賭上有兩個洞一個就是說他當然還是撈一些資料有的是從社群 有的是從個人的一些資料這個是過去已經發生的"},{"start":3108.3,"end":3117.62,"text":"那在未來我們對於機敏單位我們的軍事官兵他的身份的保密的強化你們有沒有準備備案出來了"},{"start":3118.069,"end":3143.968,"text":"對 現在就是會進行相關的一些進一步的保密作為包括研議利用運用化名的這個等等對 就是說我們不管就機敏單位我們自己知道啦當然我們不能全軍都用化名那等於沒有化名一樣嘛所以哪些單位要用化名來保護他的身分那我還是有個建議如果他在為國效力保護我們國家的情形下"},{"start":3145.249,"end":3167.069,"text":"這些軍事官兵也是我們的弟兄我們應該要保護他們所以他如果遭遇到類似的情形不管有或沒有這個對對岸準不準我們不說對於相關的保護還有如果遭致損失應該比照軍情人員給予相當的補貼我不知道我們國防部現在有沒有進行這樣的作業或者有沒有這個打算"},{"start":3168.4,"end":3193.111,"text":"我們會在第一時間對這些單位及官兵給予關懷輔導然後並且進一步採取適當的保護措施我舉個例子 比方說史頌文始終這樣他現在是局長 他被點名了那他本身也許是資安專家他退下來之後呢 他找工作開始遇到困難或者他在旅行的時候 我那天問國安局我們不是Interpol的會員 中國是"},{"start":3196.308,"end":3222.793,"text":"他把這個丟到裡面的黃色通緝名單紅色通緝名單的時候在旅行上會導致一些不便利還有一些風險那我們當然用化名來處理也是另外一種不便利他的資歷沒辦法去累積我的意思說就我們相關機敏工作人員他為國家犧牲付出那我們比照我剛才講軍情單位或者勤工相關單位有沒有適當的補貼的計畫有沒有這個打算"},{"start":3226.383,"end":3239.656,"text":"因為這些人員我覺得他們發布的有點狀況不太一樣因為有自動電軍也有這個星戰大隊對 星戰大隊自動電軍是應該是比照情報機關"},{"start":3241.457,"end":3259.527,"text":"那可能有相關的這些法制可以援引作為一個依據那新戰大隊的部分呢他並不是同情報機關所以我這邊我們今天沒有說要答案啦甚至有答案我們未必要在這邊揭露我建議部長跟相關單位去研議一下"},{"start":3260.327,"end":3275.616,"text":"如果這樣的情形它屬於勤工法規定的單位我們有沒有什麼適當的救濟或者補貼計畫那對於非勤工法的單位我們有沒有什麼樣的打算至少讓弟兄知道我在這個國軍的大家庭裡面為國效力"},{"start":3277.366,"end":3303.528,"text":"部隊有考慮到我考慮到我面對的風險那我這一個部分我希望我們國防部如果有這樣的方案的話適當的方式讓委員會知道那我們接到一些部隊一些想法反應的時候也可以幫你們做說明那另外事實上公布的有很多其實不是現役的人員並不是現役但他因為他現役時候的情形如果遭致損失我認為還是要給予關懷"},{"start":3305.438,"end":3328.925,"text":"他不是因為他自己的事嘛他是因為幫國家效力遭遇到這樣情形我們適度的關懷關懷的方案本席間沒有要求說一定要怎麼樣那你要有個方案出來讓他知道部隊有看到我這一塊這樣因為離退的人員將來回來也是我們的戰力啊他還沒有整個被除役嘛是 我們會來研議因為部長你本身也從國安會秘書長到國防部"},{"start":3330.847,"end":3351.184,"text":"針對中國解放軍的這些動作我們有沒有一些類似的制裁的反制美國做過美國把他們的軍備局局長他們的名詞跟我們不一樣美國把軍備局局長的海外資產還有他的遷徙旅遊列為制裁對象我們國防部有沒有考慮"},{"start":3353.737,"end":3374.897,"text":"我想就這個部分應該如果要討論這件事情的話我覺得應該是有國安會來協調因為中國在公布這件事情的時候據我了解也不是國防部在發布它是用發言單位 它在做心戰 認知作戰國務院還有公安局"},{"start":3376.999,"end":3404.726,"text":"他是用發布通緝的方式他有他政治目的他把他內政化那美國曾經就中國幾個軍備相關的單位進行制裁那我不是說我們要完全這樣做我是說思考一下跟盟友特別是美國這邊來思考針對中國解放軍威脅我們國家的安全傷害區域安全的情形下大家可以合作讓這樣子的人"},{"start":3407.089,"end":3411.78,"text":"這些賊要抓賊頭嘛把他點一下制裁一下"},{"start":3413.035,"end":3435.588,"text":"因為根據中國自己的統計資料他們的高官貴人海外藏的資產跟親屬是一大堆這個我是給部長建議這當然可以到國安會去討論所以有關這個相關單位自動軍軍情局等等這當然是一個認知作戰那我們一方面要穩定自己人的軍心另外一方面適當的反制作為"},{"start":3437.148,"end":3464.998,"text":"讓對方被點到的人他也會難過一下像之前美國空軍學院把他們的火箭軍所有的坐標連軍犬的訓練單位坐標都列出來隔沒一兩個月他們火箭軍從司令副司令到這個他們叫做子戰員通通都換掉了這個是給部長做建議下一個議題我要請教這個比較嚴肅了那個我們的邊線筆其實今天剛好主席給我們比較長的時間我們來研究一下邊線筆"},{"start":3467.219,"end":3492.55,"text":"我先請教部長我們對於部隊的邊線比有一個名詞叫做戰力域值英文叫ThresholdThreshold就是臨界點戰力域值我們自己國軍有沒有設定那個是百分之多少戰力域值這個是我們有關邊線比到達這個臨界點部隊就不太能夠拉出去了"},{"start":3493.174,"end":3506.208,"text":"委員好 我首先說明我們國軍整個目標 邊線比的目標是80%美軍的邊線比是多少 它的臨界點在哪裡85%啦 我幫你查了啦美軍的戰力訓練跟裝備應該比我們好"},{"start":3513.732,"end":3535.362,"text":"可他邊線比達到85%在美軍的定義這個部隊要研究為什麼發生這個事情這個部隊是沒辦法拉出去作戰的就是戰力減損的狀態那我們如果看一下我們國軍歷年的邊線比我現在邊線比還是用整體來除其實這樣除是不對的我應該看空軍的他負責維修飛機的"},{"start":3536.843,"end":3546.806,"text":"我海軍陸戰隊的我裝甲兵的那樣看會更清楚但是以平均數來看2020年我們整體有88.572021年到87.572022年到822023年到802024年到78今年大概我看是75上下一直往下掉現在目前是78.6你看78.6比你們自己設的臨界點80%也是比較低嘛"},{"start":3567.27,"end":3589.387,"text":"是跟委員說明就是說兩個方面第一個方面就是說從119年開始一直到現在其實每年的我們的編制數都是越來越多的其實我們現在的人數跟110你的意思是說我們的分母變大了我的編制有擴充我有增兵"},{"start":3590.047,"end":3617.012,"text":"是編制變大了但是蘿蔔坑變多了蘿蔔雖然沒有少但是坑變大所以數字掉下來嗎是那我們現在我們看西部數字這數字是你們的是你看一下我們以士兵來看機部單位72%炮兵68%你可以往下看這數據你們都看得到兵的部分兵的部分你看防空飛彈指揮部41%"},{"start":3621.428,"end":3648.188,"text":"好幾個單位55有69 67以美軍的這個叫做threshold臨界點來講85%我們沒有一個沒有一個達標耶以我們自己的80%來看是很嚴重的低喔事關的部分只有少數幾個單位勉強達標多數都在按照我們國軍的最低域值戰力域值就是最低標準限以下"},{"start":3649.595,"end":3652.67,"text":"為什麼士兵為什麼士兵特別低"},{"start":3654.088,"end":3683.323,"text":"跟委員說明我分三個方面來跟委員說明我們其實今年從去年到今年所有的成效都在逐步的提升沒有啊我看到數字是一年一年往下掉啊就是說除了編制數增加之外另外就是少子化我們在109年那個少子化我們20年前21年前少生的現在也不會補生啊少子化是一個區間那不是一年兩年我現在跟你研究的情形就是說你剛才講編制放大"},{"start":3683.783,"end":3696.998,"text":"我可以接受但那個精準的數據因為屬於軍事機密我沒辦法去算你的編制如果增加了2000人足不足以影響這個比例我是懷疑喔以統計上來看我現在是要你找出這個問題來你看像裝甲單位"},{"start":3700.542,"end":3719.861,"text":"裝甲是最需要專業的我一個戰車營要多少人我們曾經因為車長邊線筆掉到六成五以下第九屆吧當時我們就把哨位中位到上位他可以延到17年折優加三可以到20年"},{"start":3721.242,"end":3747.339,"text":"讓中衛 少衛的年輕軍官他不用擔心他升不上去 領不到終身縫他有個願景 我們希望穩定嘛所以你要找出病因來 我們才能找出解方你用錯的話 會產生什麼情形邊線筆不足 第一個戰力不足第二個我們現在很多高精的裝備在操作上專業性不足的人來操作 他的危險性會升高"},{"start":3748.917,"end":3775.398,"text":"會有這些問題所以你們到底有沒有研究過為什麼賓的部分特別低跟委員說明我們今年的數據我用今年數據來跟委員做說明不市府在112年是5400113年是5057元但是今年到現在10月份是2600多元也就是說不市府我們到目前為止比去年同期減少1400這個叫流盈率嘛是流盈率"},{"start":3775.638,"end":3799.53,"text":"你們流營率沒有降 你們流營率在86%以上這是不適服的 那流營率我們部班標準是76去年部長來的時候採取很多人性化的管理措施之後我們去年的流營率是82 今年到目前為止是86對 我印象你流營率 流營率到86好事老兵長留久用 戰力強可是我們的邊線比較往下掉就代表什麼問題"},{"start":3800.885,"end":3827.226,"text":"招募沒有募新的進來跟委員報告因為我們如果拿3月的邊線比是76.9的話現在的邊線比78.6所以我當然希望我們還是朝向更好的方向發展那是第一點第二點的話就是說有一些當時在討論各項佳績的時候就有討論到說哪些部隊的邊線比是"},{"start":3827.566,"end":3845.097,"text":"所以這個就是我要最後建議的結論所以我們當時才會在這一個從4月1號開始我們調升這個志願家族之外主要就著重在這個戰鬥部隊的他在不同的家族留下我們要的戰力嘛所以部長因為時間超過了我還聽說一個現象我們駝江籍的邊線筆經"},{"start":3851.758,"end":3854.141,"text":"低於50% 有沒有這個現象海軍這邊 駝江級我們這個最新的這算艇啦 800噸上下的 艦啦"},{"start":3864.864,"end":3893.419,"text":"海軍參謀長那個駝江級它整體的邊線大概會落於大概70到72有到70到72沒有低於50低於50會嚇到營養數字應該是有些船的士兵那因為士兵數的確是有些船的士兵數會多跟少但我會按照任務來做編倍跟調整所以我建議部長跟我們軍總第一個把那一個戰力域值也就是那個臨界點在每個單位可能要把它當作一個科學來研究"},{"start":3894.259,"end":3921.17,"text":"美軍是85%但他每個單位還不一樣到這個單位低於那裡對戰力就有減損的時候我們該做什麼作為這是第一個第二個我們4月1號或者過去這麼多年來其實國軍的薪資我聽了很多專業的將領在講薪資不是齊頭式的問題而是透過專業的加擠在特別辛苦或特別需要或特別專業的地方透過加擠把人才留下來"},{"start":3923.171,"end":3950.205,"text":"這個部分其實我倒希望國防部提出一個方案跟我們委員會大家來討論我們都希望加薪但是每一分薪水每一分預算用在對的對國防有幫助的那這個我今天有關編線筆花了一點時間跟部長這邊討論我們未來繼續再探討這個話題我們希望看到你們提出一些改善的方案我想不管在招募或者不釋乎或者留營率或者是有關這個全面檢視整體檢視軍人待遇我們都會持續來進行謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":3952.301,"end":3952.902,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3983.195,"end":3988.118,"text":"主席好即便是簡單的圖檔下載因為那個高解析度還要耗點時間這個有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":4001.082,"end":4019.333,"text":"是 陈伟部长您好听完今天您的报告这个内容中间有许多是我们值得持续强化加强当然还有很大努力的精进空间那我栽取了几个部分的议题向您就教是不是也请副总长执行官您也方便一起"},{"start":4027.06,"end":4040.425,"text":"今天的内容报告中间提到了在今年的4月1号2号中共执行海峡雷霆2025a那么它是例行性的海空联合战备警巡任务"},{"start":4043.032,"end":4071.661,"text":"他设定了目标方法手段意图在孤立台湾方法是解放军完成外线包围海警执行内线的隔离那么当然也是区域拒止让外力无法进入海海这里面我要向国防部持续建议精进的就是我们目前已经在做共同图像了但是这个共同图像的运用上还有精进的空间像左边这个图就是把国防部公布的图"},{"start":4072.861,"end":4098.064,"text":"顯示出來那這是媒體運用國防部的圖做出圖那下面這張圖就是把海圖航圖經過校正把鄰近日本的防空識別區他的所有的對空雷達涵蓋範圍套疊上去那麼這個山東號航艦出來的一個顯示那左邊這個圖就是剛才國防部的這張展示圖"},{"start":4101.42,"end":4114.051,"text":"回到這個裡面就要請教一個問題了因為這張大圖的比例是1比300萬分之一所以如果把展示圖套疊上去的那個海沙中線"},{"start":4116.11,"end":4143.712,"text":"0.3公分實際上它就相當於9000碼這個時候我們的空軍這個防空監偵就要掌握雷達的誤差那麼有的時候中共在這個所謂的中線它是打擦邊球希望耗損你的戰力我們希望監控的過程能夠做更精密的掌握這一點我們是希望把這個東西不只是在國防部的各聯參要運用"},{"start":4145.885,"end":4150.094,"text":"尤其是在國防大學的教學的方向這種方法"},{"start":4151.314,"end":4180.299,"text":"尤其是講灰色地帶 灰色區塊這個要納入教學共同圖像未來一定是取代了我們現在傳統的UTM的紙圖現在國防大學還在精進這個紙圖還是2000年的這種圖希望能夠在教學方面能夠加快進展因為要導入AI的技術一定要從教學開始而不是從部隊去運用"},{"start":4182.341,"end":4198.357,"text":"这张图是今天早上7点40分在金门外岛所有海域上显示的这些商船其实现在你用手机你就可以查在这个时间内早上7点40的时候"},{"start":4199.847,"end":4227.724,"text":"有四艘中华民国的船到金门去也有三艘外籍商船其中有四条船他把AIS关掉了这里面有可能是中共海警船进入但是有17条的中共商船在我们的禁县制水域内活动那这种情况下是不是就是侵犯了我们的所谓的管辖权因为这个是在外岛水域了"},{"start":4229.087,"end":4254.577,"text":"我想請教一下這個站在國防部的立場或者聯參的看法我們是如何協商我們的海巡部隊提出警告這裡面還有將近十七八條中共的船在我們這邊下茅這個時候它是排隊等待進廈門港但是它並沒有獲得我們同意這個時候我們國防部作出什麼樣的回應"},{"start":4257.233,"end":4269.02,"text":"跟委員報告我想就相關的海警或者是這個民兵漁船的這些部分我們會跟這個海巡署建立這一個相關的"},{"start":4269.867,"end":4298.04,"text":"情志共享然後也通報的機制所以我們會持續的應用我們所有的聯合行政手段來我們一起來掌握那針對這個海警跟民兵的部分現在的按照這個相關的這個海上任務中資源協定書的話是先由海巡這個執法單位優先處置那我們會派遣適切的任務件來做一個資源這樣子"},{"start":4298.76,"end":4317.748,"text":"那现状当然就是说我们主要还是要我们共同来守护我们这个海疆这个里面有一部分它是玉石它在里面产生滞留了那甚至这里面打符号是打圆圈的就是它全部在这边毛破了"},{"start":4318.669,"end":4334.262,"text":"那理論上他不應該在我們家的前院後院停車那他下茅他其實吃豆腐他排隊要等得進廈門港他這個停留時間很長甚至他有時候排放污水等於說污染了我們的海域那這個時候"},{"start":4335.936,"end":4349.236,"text":"就不只是海巡應該要執行執法因為我們站在國防部的角色這個權責禁限制水域是我們的權責所以平常跟海巡的協商因為這個時候我們的軍艦並不會進去"},{"start":4351.92,"end":4376.967,"text":"我想海軍了解在金門外島境線之水我們的軍艦除了外島的補給艦進去以外我們的作戰艦艇並不進入的所以這個時候要有一個調節的空間就是說掌握它它持住了多少我們要回報另外在上面各位看一下那個廈門的祥安機場在今年的年底到了明年初就要啟用了那麼它是完全比照"},{"start":4378.163,"end":4393.198,"text":"上海浦东机场它是一个国际机场规模非常大那它的这个起飞下滑道不管是动四动两两动它有很可能它的飞机民航机会进入了我们的近线制水域甚至从金门上空飞过去"},{"start":4394.039,"end":4415.001,"text":"基于人道精神及非安我们当然不会去用用其他的手段去去这个制造危险但是在航管跟民航局跟我们站管的协商部分这个我提请我们要强化这个部分因为这也是一个灰色区块尤其是玩弄国际法的行为因为刚才"},{"start":4416.162,"end":4435.877,"text":"也特别讲掉了他把台海未来内海化这个内水化跟这个外岛状况不一样其实我也建议我们不管是在联餐都要应该把1982年联合国的海洋法公约有关公海自由航行内海内水的定义"},{"start":4436.678,"end":4461.808,"text":"这个连参要有那么在我们的国防大学三个子参学院还有法律师都要把这个拿出来叫这是一个国际法的灰色区块根据Article33到47里面都有强调台海是公海不能因为中共片面的解释就变成内海化我想这个部分我们要在国际法的部分要持续强化"},{"start":4464.904,"end":4486.071,"text":"共同图像现在我们知道国防部在持续精进尤其是通知传输媒体任性那么不管是我们讲的将来的卫星 低轨 海澜这些东西都在强化但是地面也要发展非地面网络的串联这次在救灾过程中间我们也很"},{"start":4488.572,"end":4508.378,"text":"正面的看待我们的国军救灾部队已经能够用Google Map的图结合手机用WiFi的方式能够掌握但这个东西安全性能后面还大家自己要持续精进这个是俄罗斯的国家的指挥中心它这种的图像从作战区"},{"start":4509.218,"end":4536.43,"text":"到这个就是说国家的最高层级甚至救灾防灾他通通可以做一个显示那这个是未来我们要努力精进那因为有不同的信号来源不同的时间友好国家所以不同的时间不同的区块不同的行为不同的位置不同的动向最后经过整合产生一个给长官做决策客观的共同图像那这个是在今年救灾啊二零"},{"start":4537.51,"end":4565.945,"text":"25年9月25号我先显示一个我们虚拟的战情那么有各种图像选择最主要就是你透过云端或者你的网络你战略情报要有操控台各种征收器 通讯操控台还有摇测无人机回馈的台还有云端监制 卫星 动态情报做一个我相信国防部现在已经在强化这个部分但是现在你要跟结合下面是什么呢"},{"start":4567.045,"end":4577.598,"text":"就是栽房了以后我们要看到的是整个栽房的情势就是像这个"},{"start":4578.735,"end":4606.15,"text":"马太安西或是这一次燕子口这个方案如果溃堤或者撤侨撤离居民这个部分等于说我们的国军跟地方甚至中央救灾中心是分享共同图像这一块我们还可以共同努力那这个是一个方法论我想连二部分或者是我们官部已经在进行这个部分那最主要就是强调未来的人工智慧"},{"start":4607.947,"end":4619.392,"text":"它的本質是要能夠特定目標的設計周遭環境的因素要有信任感 解釋性 驗證度 確實性能夠提供接近戰場實際的充分資料"},{"start":4622.642,"end":4640.019,"text":"那人工智慧的决心实际上它并不能取代指挥官这个在教学里面还是很重要我们希望不管只参教员或者是先进的单位都要有这个课程而不是现在大家都用手机都会用这个AI付钱不付钱是另外一个手段"},{"start":4640.62,"end":4667.613,"text":"那麼另外就是現在強調的我們的台灣盾要整合現有的所有的武器裝備透過不同的Sensor還有美方未來提供的資本因為今天您的報告講提到了有C5ISR我建議再加一個T就是Targeting因為現在物貨的時間越來越縮短可以交換的情資也是越來越短所以最後就是"},{"start":4668.772,"end":4697.542,"text":"用AI但是我们要为最终的结果负责要很踏实地做不是口号式的照镜环节兼构绝对不会有漏网那最主要就是要确认我们指挥层级还有操作层级哪些是在链路中间main in the loop on the loop那低层授权的out of the loop我希望我们在这个部分AI的运用构想上要大家一起努力持续精进部长请您回应一下"},{"start":4698.796,"end":4714.155,"text":"在軍民的這個部分我想結合EMIC這個部分是我們現在正在努力的目標當然我們賄賂的部分應該是非機密的部分所以軍民融合作為"},{"start":4715.516,"end":4731.967,"text":"政府的一個全政府的決策系統這個部分正在討論也在努力當中那另外國軍本身的部分我想地面的部隊我們現在已經有實際上大家也已經有看到就是所謂的台灣戰術網路這個部分在作為地面"},{"start":4732.918,"end":4761.564,"text":"的數位圖資掌握整個部隊動態跟部隊的即時資訊這個部分我們也正在努力那關於整體防空的這個部分就是說如何從sensor到shooter有一個對各式的sensor跟武器做個整合然後並且導入這個戰場管理系統來做協助那我想這個部分也是我們正在努力的方向廖部長大家共同努力持續精進謝謝"},{"start":4768.434,"end":4771.937,"text":"接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是 羅委員好"},{"start":4788.522,"end":4804.117,"text":"是部長早部長有關於這個前幾天那個某個週刊這個媒體呢有踢爆就是大器海洋區的局長種種荒謬的這個行為那我有看到就是海軍司令部其實也有出面做了一些澄清"},{"start":4804.978,"end":4822.528,"text":"就是說像報導裡面有提到的收集演訓時候的機密的資訊、上改春節的戰備的輪值,然後是讓中資的背景公司入營等等,還有營區的男女混入等等,這些都是屬於不實的報導。"},{"start":4823.829,"end":4829.078,"text":"那唯一呢可能就是違反治安規定的部分呢做這個檢討試處那個參謀今天剛剛也上來了你們這個確實都已經做過調查了嗎"},{"start":4836.504,"end":4855.37,"text":"我想跟委員報告 我想這樣子 現在是一個海軍的初步調查那我已經請我們的光部的總督察長要介入來由光部的層級來進行一個整體的調查那我們做完整體調查以後 再跟各位委員報告"},{"start":4856.252,"end":4881.941,"text":"所以目前還在調查當中因為我有看到的就是只有違反治安規定這部分會來做檢討因為指控真的是非常的嚴重結果的這些指控現在變成都是不實的目前要檢討的部分就是只有治安的這個部分所以說因為我剛剛在提到說你們有提到就是說什麼東西是不實什麼東西不實可是有一個部分我有注意到就是說它供"},{"start":4882.941,"end":4900.811,"text":"公然要求LINE來傳輸這個機密的部分我們海軍司令部這邊好像並沒有否認是不是確實有做過這個動作嗎LINE的部分當時應該是在有設一個群組但是沒有如看起來沒有如"},{"start":4901.591,"end":4922.367,"text":"外界所講的有涉及到漢光演習這個部分但是它還是違規所以是在去年的4月3號不是今年7月是去年應該是前一兩年在漢光演習以前它就已經要求就是說把一個這個群組就解散了"},{"start":4926.191,"end":4952.466,"text":"對 他們那時候就是跟艦隊指揮部這邊開會然後要求把機密的資料傳到他私設的未加密LINE群組所以這部分是有的是不是就是說有這樣的一個群組但是在去年的4月3號就已經解散掉了我想請教一下他這個所謂私設的LINE的群組是在他自己私人的手機還是公務機"},{"start":4954.047,"end":4967.755,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告他這個公務群組其實是針對海上氣象的傳遞跟氣象通報資料的一個在他們公務群組那這個公務群組在依照規定是有簽核來執行"},{"start":4970.905,"end":4995.881,"text":"那但是就是因為在成立這個四個多月中間那局長可能覺得相關的訊息還是試射一些比較不太適合公開所以他在四個月後他把這個群組就關了那後面就會用我們這個一個另外一個管道來做所以它裡面的機密也不是焊光的機密只是一個水文收集的一個任務使用的一個運用的一個部分的一個資訊"},{"start":4996.881,"end":5010.487,"text":"因為我們現在討論的是有關於這個資安會不會外洩那當然你說可能這內容都還好因為他還是違反這個相關的自動安全規定所以我們還是會來予以這個溢出"},{"start":5012.608,"end":5031.127,"text":"是 是 OK那本來就不能夠用這個LINE我剛才一直在強調就是一直在問你們就是說到底他用的是私人的手機組的群組還是公務機因為你們有區分嘛你不是有公務機跟私人的手機嗎所以這部分還不了解因為這個是有不同的層級的嚴重性耶"},{"start":5032.208,"end":5060.134,"text":"跟委員報告我是連六次長針對這些群組是用私人的手機那私人的手機可以按照我們的規定可以建立公務群組來做公務協調那組織的成員他是需要經過單位主官的核定裡面要有治安長還有保盤官來確定我們一般做業務協調非機密資訊的內容是才可以做協調機密的資訊是不能不能夠在這個"},{"start":5061.954,"end":5081.146,"text":"群組裡面上傳的 以上報告好 那現在我們還是要檢討這個資安因為我剛才為什麼我會提到說公務跟這個私人我們今年9月24號通過了資通安全法的修正將政府公務及部的使用高風險中資APP的明文正式入法"},{"start":5082.006,"end":5105.216,"text":"那可是私人的手機並沒有做相關的規範嘛我們只針對公務機嘛那剛剛我們所提到的靈性的這個局長他用的是私人的手機來傳遞那私人的手機可能他會下載一些所謂的剛剛所提到的眾志的APP小紅書啦 微信啦"},{"start":5107.114,"end":5127.072,"text":"之類的這些軟體也許他的私人的手機或是TikTok等等如果他用這個私人的手機傳Line雖然說你說這可能看起來沒有什麼機密的資料可是這個是不是會不會因為他用私人的手機所以很有可能這些資料會被"},{"start":5131.817,"end":5136.211,"text":"上傳到境外的這個伺服器有可能嗎"},{"start":5138.26,"end":5166.857,"text":"我們我了解現在的相關規定就剛剛連六次長有提到的就是說有公務學校的需求而設立這些群組的話那奉核定以後呢是可以使用那就傳遞跟業務有關但是沒有涉基民的資訊那另外就要含這個治安長跟保防官嘛那負責管制跟集合這個群組內容然後所以你們認為說你們已經有從從把關了定期每月來實施清教這樣子"},{"start":5168.138,"end":5189.882,"text":"所以這個部分是有一個規範的你們覺得這個就不太可能會有把機密資料傳送到境外的疑慮你們覺得這樣子是OK的但是我想各單位還是要我們定期或不定期要來落實督檢這個部分還是要來做"},{"start":5190.27,"end":5217.847,"text":"我覺得還是要加強因為你都知道說這是這個有現在是有資安的問題這個可能要就是要來做檢討那再來還有就是這個預算這預算的部分那當然媒體有說一個兩百多人的一個單位因為它畢竟是一個幕僚單位不是這個不是一個作戰單位它是個幕僚單位結果呢它這個在這次的這個韌性預算裡面它就編了17.5"},{"start":5219.568,"end":5242.435,"text":"5億的這個預算 他們就覺得說 欸 到底因為說實在啦 像這個大氣海洋局 像如果不是因為這次爆出了這件事情的話 其實很多人都不曉得所謂的 我們還有一個大氣海洋局的這個存在 因為他來 比如說我們來做這個詢答的時候 也沒有做練習之類的 所以我們想知道就是說這17.5億的這個編列是合理的嗎"},{"start":5247.519,"end":5269.489,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告大氣局主要就是負責我們整個台海周邊我們有關軍事的海域的海洋的監偵水文探測海盜測量還有一個相關的軍用海圖圖資的一個運用還有一個即時對於我們周邊可能的颱風預警跟其他的一個整合"},{"start":5270.089,"end":5288.986,"text":"那他也負責了我們相關的一個環境的作戰資訊的一個資源所以他這個17.5基本上我們他未來因為他的這個功能跟未來他負擔的角色跟著我們目前的整個這個軍事調整跟任務的調整他就必須在未來的"},{"start":5290.148,"end":5307.207,"text":"資源情報作戰的一個能力要提升另外他有關的相關的一個圖資跟海域中心的建增所以我們預計是要針對這三個中心來做一個整建那整建的部分所需的部分大概就是"},{"start":5308.328,"end":5322.576,"text":"主要就17.5億是有一個三個中心的一個設置大概是這樣那委員如果比較細部我大概再讓您辦公室再去針對部分再做對 我覺得這部分可能要解開一些疑慮因為現在報導其實還滿長的尤其報導還提到說他有提到說短時間幾張紙就能騙到好幾億哇 這個是怎樣這個是很誇張了吧"},{"start":5333.563,"end":5350.118,"text":"抱怨這個應該是不實報導所以不實報導為什麼呢因為他這個都有證人都有什麼A先生B先生C先生然後D小姐之類的這些人都是我們都是我們國防部內部的人員嗎這些人有知道是誰講出這些東西如果是不實的話這些人應該也有法律上的責任吧"},{"start":5351.338,"end":5378.933,"text":"到底有沒有講我們現在目前也是在繼續在清查中但是有有提到他有提到有些他跟某些人比較特定查但是我們也了解他當初那個進到營區來說是一般傷情的一個水下的這一些資料收集跟信號傳輸的傷情他這個傷情基本上跟我剛才講的17.5以三個案子都沒有關係也沒有直接涉入那也沒有相關那這個"},{"start":5380.934,"end":5406.246,"text":"進入到營運這個人也從來沒有跟大氣局有任何投標或其他的其他的採購的案件那這些的都是一般的一個轉介傷情其實這兩件事情是分開的確是不實的指控所以我們不方便在那邊還沒有結束以前講太多但是今天委員提到我們就必須要做一個比較跟委員做一個陳述那相關這個案三個案子的一個建案跟規劃我們會到委員在那邊再做一個清楚的報告"},{"start":5406.946,"end":5433.615,"text":"OK 我是在想說因為這報導真的對整個國軍的傾向其實是有很大的傷害尤其我們現在要省預算我們這種高額的預算我們不能說因為這件事情影響了整體所以這部分如果可以儘早調查儘早釐清 儘早澄清的我想這部分都要儘早來說清楚好 那大家最後一題本來講到就是男女官兵請示"},{"start":5434.935,"end":5460.723,"text":"混著的這個部分 因為你們這邊說其實這個好像也是報導有誤那當然這部分 我們當然還希望說不管是國防部也好 各個單位我們還是希望能夠提升性別意識跟管理的這個水平那再來呢 下一個我可以簡單提一下因為他這邊講是一個聘僱人員的"},{"start":5461.983,"end":5477.216,"text":"正常的軍事官的男生女生宿舍都是合於規定分開的那他今天講是一個聘僱人員的中午休息的那本來安排是在另外一個正常的地方那個地方應該在那裡但是因為那地方有漏水"},{"start":5478.257,"end":5497.303,"text":"漏水完之後房間不太適合他們就把它調整在另外一個休息室那那個休息室不是提供住宿只是給住宿那個聘僱的人員中午吃便當休息一下之後這邊站待那裡有警監走道也有一些安全機制他的東西也可以上鎖其實這個部分並也是不屬實際並沒有說"},{"start":5499.344,"end":5525.243,"text":"那就是一個中午休息的地方所以嗎 因為我有看到你們的所謂的澄清其實都是輕輕的帶過很多細節我們也不是不了解只是說 講的這些都是不屬實那哪裡不屬實 其實沒人知道我想我們國防部的立場還是我會請我們總隊長本於勿枉勿縱的精神我們會來徹查嚴查然後再給社會一個交代"},{"start":5525.923,"end":5532.371,"text":"對因為我們覺得說這件事情確實是有眾措國軍的這個形象所以還是要儘早來澄清跟說明OK好以上謝謝好謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5556.046,"end":5564.832,"text":"先前這個共軍的動態和部長討論過了那過去在談這個共軍犯台的可能時間點的時候往往會參考這個戴維生窗口所指涉的這個2027年"},{"start":5580.492,"end":5597.026,"text":"的部分但是最近美國總統川普在受訪的時候他認為中國打算在2027年入侵台灣的部分他認為是不可能近期解放軍內部高層的"},{"start":5599.073,"end":5618.112,"text":"狀況動盪不安過去在市中全會召開的時候包括中央軍委副主席何衛東還有前政工部主任苗華以及東部戰區司令林向陽等9名上將被開除黨籍"},{"start":5619.178,"end":5648.005,"text":"國安局先前也透露有半數以上的上將超過半年沒有露臉實際上被整肅的人數有可能更多那解放軍內部的整肅清洗尤其涉及到負責台灣的軍方高層部長怎麼評估他們對於共軍的整備以及對於台灣作戰的相關影響有沒有觀察到共軍任何異常的跡象"},{"start":5649.864,"end":5666.304,"text":"我們是來看整個徵喉還有共軍隊我們進行的相關的一些演訓活動來做一個分析我們觀察共軍隊台還是維持常態的"},{"start":5667.125,"end":5693.669,"text":"一個戰演訓的活動沒有異常的現象那而且他的軍事壓迫跟洗腦的這個狀況也沒有因為何為東林向陽等等對台作戰的這些重要成員的落馬有所影響所以我想我們呃國防部還是會掌掌握這個就是應用多元的管道跟聯合勤進手段來持續來掌握相關的這個敵情變化我我們"},{"start":5694.605,"end":5702.66,"text":"我們要完善我們的整個的疫警徵喉的判斷而不是單純的在看他這個內部人事的動盪而已"},{"start":5703.991,"end":5725.394,"text":"那這部分也請我們國防部跟我們情報單位能夠持續的掌握了解這個解放軍內部情形及相關的動態這應該是對我們國防部最最為重要的一個部分那另外在我們這個新式的武器籌貨方面我們首批的這個海馬士多管火箭系統以及"},{"start":5726.014,"end":5749.073,"text":"M1A2T戰車都在去年運抵台灣其中海馬仕已經在7月正式成軍但是在戰車的部分只有公開實彈射擊的操演我想請教部長第一個M1A2T作戰單位的成軍我們是否已經有掌握到確切的時間點"},{"start":5750.994,"end":5767.77,"text":"我們第一個贏的這個陳軍的典禮是我們會在10月31號因為他在接受這個戰力車運之後那正式陳軍在10月31號會舉行一個陳軍典禮戰車的部分M1A2就10月31號對"},{"start":5773.795,"end":5797.491,"text":"好 那另外我們在7月份戰車實彈射擊當天有靜態的展示我們衰兵用的穿甲彈當時引發一陣討論但是在美國所公布的軍售方案當中並沒有這款彈藥我想請教我們部長國防部在後續是否會有另外購得這款彈藥"},{"start":5798.712,"end":5807.067,"text":"的這個可能還是已經在構置其他的這個穿甲彈考量或是相關的規劃"},{"start":5808.241,"end":5834.28,"text":"向委員報告我們在這個瑞捷專案裡面隨裝我們也構置了有六型的包含到這些高爆彈還有一吻脫殼的穿甲彈那這些都依照我們的這個交裝的期程來實施交運那也都有到已經到隨著要成軍的單位也都入庫了"},{"start":5835.04,"end":5844.607,"text":"那在後續的部分因為還會有社訊上面的需求不管是練習彈或是實彈穿甲彈也都有納入後續的後維的持續採購規劃好那我們"},{"start":5849.198,"end":5867.585,"text":"這個也看到這個國防部預算在去年底所提出的一個不對稱作戰的這個特別預算將會分七年來編列但實際的這個規模應該還沒有定案由於這個特別預算會有多項的這個軍購同步進行那我們對美軍"},{"start":5870.855,"end":5888.684,"text":"對美國的軍購又高度的仰賴美國政府的參與針對這個部分我想還是請教部長美國政府目前處於停擺的狀況什麼時候會恢復運作還不曉得這件事情對我們軍購案的執行有沒有具體的影響"},{"start":5891.502,"end":5919.372,"text":"如果是已經執行了執行中的就是說這個軍購案的部分因為他還是說必須要劃分必要跟非必要人員如果是必要人員還是要來上班那這個必要人員就包括了軍人所以執行中的這個軍購案我想是政府跟政府之間的"},{"start":5920.239,"end":5932.901,"text":"也跟組合業上完整合約簽署那這個美軍這個他本身會對這個各軍購案執行中的軍購案項成立專案管理辦公室所以這個部分是不會有影響"},{"start":5933.908,"end":5955.287,"text":"那我想還在談的這個部分我們會密切關注他的這個情況就是說我們現在要提出來然後正在執行這些雙方來進行相關的一些構案的必要程序這個部分我們會來持續密注他們的聯邦機構的這個狀況"},{"start":5961.312,"end":5977.53,"text":"就是執行中的這個還會正常的運行對 已經執行中的應該那只是在洽談中的洽談中或是還沒有執行的這個應該要走一定的程序這個部分我們會來一直不斷的持續來跟他們來進行討論"},{"start":5979.892,"end":6006.982,"text":"好這部分再請我們國防部再繼續追蹤那我們戴總統在國慶演說上也宣誓要打造我們這個台灣之盾那固然是我國防接下來非常重要的一個政策也牽涉到我們這個防空武器的這個籌貨和系統整合所以也看到國防部即將納入在接下來要提出的這個特別預算當中不過"},{"start":6007.842,"end":6036.475,"text":"我們要面對的是共軍打造低成本的這個遠程火箭炮能夠從福建沿海直接攻擊到台灣由於會大量消耗我方的這個防空戰力也可能會造成嚴重的這個威脅那我方似乎還沒有很好的一個這個應對的方案那我想再請教部長就是台灣之盾會是我們應對共軍遠程火箭炮的一個這個解方嗎還是"},{"start":6037.642,"end":6050.352,"text":"我們國防部有其他好的策略來因應我想總統提到的台灣之盾他最重要的就是說我們要整合各式的政策器"},{"start":6051.435,"end":6073.175,"text":"這個所謂的Sensor然後到各式的這個Shooter就是各式的防空武器那麼雙方整合那麼透過一個鏈結之後我們形成一個擊殺網那所以這個鏈結各式的這些偵測器融會為各種武器形成的這個擊殺網當然是有"},{"start":6075.377,"end":6097.213,"text":"是全方位的多層的然後是這樣的一個整體飛彈防禦系統那反制遠程火箭作戰應用的策略跟系統結構當然是我們重要的一個建軍的方向不過現在因為相關的部分還失策集名我想就可能不方便在這裡公開好"},{"start":6100.196,"end":6122.495,"text":"日前我們國防部中副部長到美國出席國防會議的時候在接受訪問也有提到我們國防部必須整合現有的防護系統以及直通訊系統也與美方討論具體的合作方案希望能夠幫忙來整合台灣的"},{"start":6123.596,"end":6145.334,"text":"相關的這個防空系統那對於這個防空系統的整合我們中科院與這個美商合作開發的這個IVCS整體作戰指揮系統是否已經啟動而我們是否已經得到美方具體的一個承諾將會來協助我們整合有沒有這個可能"},{"start":6146.175,"end":6172.717,"text":"委員問的是指中科院跟那個美商洛格公司的那我想這個部分就由中科院來回答一下好我們在九月份已經簽署了合作備忘錄這個備忘錄的內容就是針對美製和台製防空系統來進行整合那因為雙方簽有保密協議所以相關洽談的內容是已經在進行中但是我們不方便對外公開進行中了"},{"start":6173.809,"end":6194.198,"text":"我想還是跟委員補充一下有關整個飛彈防禦系統的整合應該是台美共同努力的目標啦我們這個部分如果有具體成果再跟委員做個說明好那另外對於這個無人機的運用無人機的運用我們已經討論一段時間了也是很多這個"},{"start":6195.879,"end":6222.461,"text":"民眾在關心的一個議題我們看到這次這個國防部的這個夜報當中特別提到在各作戰區我們將依任務的特性及這個戰術的運用配附各型的無人機並新增無人機大隊那我想請教我們陸軍對於這個無人機大隊的這個架構及邊桩是否有能夠公開說明的這個部分"},{"start":6224.283,"end":6237.259,"text":"向委員報告我們這個依照剛剛業務報告裡面各作戰區編設的無人機大隊那我們是現在已經開始在依照他主要還是要依據我們整個"},{"start":6238.3,"end":6253.108,"text":"武器或裝備獲得的期程來依照節點來編程那我們是管制在明年7月以前來全部完成成編那至於細部的編組規劃下去可以到委員辦公室向您做說明好"},{"start":6254.409,"end":6281.087,"text":"那相對來說我們對於這個無人機的這個大隊的建制應該也要了解到這個敵方在無人機上所擁有的相關資源我們對於這個共軍目前無人機服役的情形以及他部署的這個規模還有資源相對較少的情況下我想請教我們部長那對於這個共軍無人機的這個編組尤其是對台灣"},{"start":6283.187,"end":6300.765,"text":"的威脅還有它攻擊型的這個無人機它的規模以及數量我們國防部有沒有相關掌握的情質所以跟委員報告整體的這個防空的防禦這個防禦系統事實上就要包括反彈反擊跟反無人機"},{"start":6302.106,"end":6320.16,"text":"所以我想我們對於相關無人機也會有一定的規劃那在我們的要提做特別預算裡面也會有就反制無人機的這個部分來做一個規劃然後也納入我們整體防空裡面的一環"},{"start":6322.254,"end":6336.094,"text":"對共軍的無人機狀況我們有沒有掌握對 我們當然我們的相關的這些單位都會就中國的無人機的一個發展都有一個綿密的一個"},{"start":6338.977,"end":6365.873,"text":"收住跟延期好最後一個就目前這個無人機的這個操作人員還沒有這個專業專門的這個加急那隨著我們各部隊這個接裝之後無人機的操作的這個人力需求也應當會隨之提升那如果接下來要鼓勵更多的人才能夠來學習操作這個無人機我們也要鼓勵專業人員能夠長留"},{"start":6367.854,"end":6390.362,"text":"人才長留久用那國防部有沒有研議對於這個無人機的這個飛手也納入相關的這個加急的可能首先第一個就是說因應組織變裝的調整我們要將這個戰鬥部隊的定義要做一些調修那所以無人機大隊應該也是戰鬥部隊裡面的一環所以他可以領戰鬥部隊加急"},{"start":6391.192,"end":6420.509,"text":"那至於有沒有另外要針對這個在另外的價格我想這個必須要整體要來考量研議因為每一個人都會有操作相關的這些高專的這個部分那所以這些部分的加急要做一個整通盤的規劃我們要留人才我想這個部分應該國防部要去審慎的這個評估應該適當的加急就要加急"},{"start":6422.056,"end":6434.739,"text":"好 以上謝謝好 謝謝等一下沈博洋委員質詢 質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請國防部長及中科院的院長請顧部長還有中科院院長"},{"start":6457.606,"end":6486.722,"text":"是 黃委員好部長好那個針對今天中科院的改革的轉型那我想請教一下我們的院長中科院過去有許多長期結構性的一個問題的存在而且這個監察院都在糾正那例如財務以標案管理透明性的不足缺乏這個競爭機制官僚的文化"},{"start":6488.154,"end":6515.877,"text":"科技成果轉移民間的移轉力非常的低等等的問題我想中科院院長你來回答我這個問題您提到了有關監察院指出的問題確實就是中科院前一陣子一直存在的問題那我道任這個職位我們也是針對這樣子的結構性問題來做改革我想"},{"start":6516.857,"end":6532.965,"text":"你根本就沒有能力改革嘛你到了去年去年的七月份到現在你改革了什麼東西啊你改革了什麼東西官僚作風你到現在都還是官僚作風你替國防部做了什麼事情啊"},{"start":6536.158,"end":6563.96,"text":"不少人認為你到了中科院最主要的工作之一就是協助中科院的改革的轉型但是轉型了沒有本身想了解一年多來中科院在你的領導之下是否有新的氣象新光三任 三八活你的三八活因應了原來的這些官僚作風你把這個報告改革了改革了什麼東西"},{"start":6564.821,"end":6578.491,"text":"把這個報告趕快給我這一份委員沒有問題我一個禮拜之內可以給委員這份報告中科院近期對無人武器系統的發展特別的重視但過去有不少民間廠商認為"},{"start":6580.632,"end":6609.894,"text":"中科院以民間廠商在無人機與無人艦量產以協作方向的黑箱壟斷的餘力那在去年的產業監察院因應糾正國防部和陸軍司令部督導的不周在辦理偽製戰術型進程無人飛機的載具在載具的案中發生主艦對外採購的過程不合理的"},{"start":6611.158,"end":6633.269,"text":"不合理的評選包含十位評委中有六位是中科院的自己人那三位入境士官外聘學家學者只有一位同案中垂直起降無人機製作等三項採購但評但別"},{"start":6637.649,"end":6659.941,"text":"評選委員評分一場的高度將近百分之百百分之九十五點五五且評選優勝者還採用私標廠商協力廠商的光學產品交貨所以等等的問題你再改革了沒有後續我再問一下請教"},{"start":6662.007,"end":6688.769,"text":"產協界也反映中科院廠商在量產階段與民間廠商協作但自身又以子公司或關係企業參與這個就是求嚴兼裁判求嚴兼裁判你有沒有做到現在改革方向方針到底求嚴兼裁判還存在了沒有你回答一下"},{"start":6689.309,"end":6718.559,"text":"我要很簡單回答第一個從我去年上任之後中科院原本的五家子公司現在中科院沒有任何一家登記在案的子公司這是第一個第二個中科院委員剛剛提到的去年三月份陸軍第二代進程無人機的標案那是由陸軍司令部當時所做的決策那當時因為這個標案它在第一代是由中科院生產的所以當時陸軍考量到延續性所以它在標案裡面的委員的確有聘請比較多的有關中科院的委員"},{"start":6719.199,"end":6739.091,"text":"但是中科委員的委員在評選過程中間我們也從來沒有針對我們自己或是有任何協力廠商去做任何的私相授受的行為我想這個標案到現在有沒有具體的規範排除類似的狀況 有沒有有 我答應給委員把這些報告也給我把這個規範都給委員"},{"start":6740.592,"end":6753.061,"text":"好 那去年的外交部林部長林部長率團台灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟出席在立陶宛舉辦的無人機產業論壇之後就傳出中科院計畫將以具備的無人機設計授權國內業者"},{"start":6765.33,"end":6782.922,"text":"那業者若獲得訂單中科院再依產量取得權利金目前中科院執行的狀況如何收到的權利金有多少你回答一下各位報告我們現在經過國安部核定"},{"start":6783.857,"end":6804.952,"text":"已經可以釋出的技術就是總共有九項那這九項技術我們現在是開放給業界來認領那業界跟我們連協商的合約都還在簽署當中所以說目前還沒有任何權利金的收入我們目前所有收入的部分是我們替國內無人機業者所做的技術服務去年"},{"start":6806.073,"end":6826.167,"text":"外交部林部長都率團到立陶宛那你應該現在授權給國內的業者應該要收取的權益金到現在一個都沒有九項是檯面上的九項檯面下的九項另外你執行的沒有這就是你執行的能力問題嘛部長"},{"start":6828.499,"end":6850.477,"text":"如果他沒有這個能力的話該換了啦重新的把中科院提振提升能夠更好如果今天中科院長沒有這個轉型的能力的話也應該重新思考是不是呀還有更好的人選台灣的無人機裡面"},{"start":6852.466,"end":6866.236,"text":"載機的產業發展不如中美起步也稍晚了一點其實包含日韓 日本跟韓國也發現在這個領域上如果無法做到精密的合作"},{"start":6867.27,"end":6884.082,"text":"很難有所成就既然無人機艦現在是中科院的重中之重如果之前的弊端如果沒有完全的排除將不利於我們未來發展的領域好 已發展所以部長"},{"start":6885.239,"end":6900.3,"text":"你能不能回答一下剛剛以上這一些的種種中科院過去的弊端包含以軍民合作的立場上是不是要改進改變部長你來回答一下"},{"start":6901.449,"end":6925.663,"text":"我想剛剛院長有提到了像現在中科院的五家子公司都沒有了就沒有沒有再有子公司這個狀況存在這第一個第二個就是說科技成果向民間的移轉那我們現在也在督促中科院要盡量的移轉這些技術那我也督促軍備局要加強督導這個部分所以我們現在不斷的在研"},{"start":6926.983,"end":6944.672,"text":"這個中科院可以去做計轉的這個部分所以中科院也在努力的在進行當中那其他相關一些我想院長已經做了一些的改革之後他剛剛已經同意就是說因為詳細的部分在於書面跟委員做一個報告這樣子"},{"start":6945.732,"end":6973.114,"text":"因為中科院是以具有目前來講無人機包含艦的部分來講是一個重中之重要轉型要改型提升這是一個非常重要的一環中科院不能夠再跟過去一樣官僚文化的作風因為今天來講國防部長有責任監督那對國人來講當然要有交代"},{"start":6974.395,"end":6988.244,"text":"那另外就是關於中科院院長請回我想請教一下部長今天的報告中提到了明年陸軍將新增的無人機大隊海軍陸戰隊66旅戰車營也將轉型為無人機營"},{"start":6995.549,"end":7014.838,"text":"本席在今年六月曾經就陸軍將成立首次無人機部隊提出書面的質詢指出根據美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲的挑戰在於無法完全適應戰場的轉型"},{"start":7017.699,"end":7026.813,"text":"那美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲這個以傳統部隊完全協同任務根據"},{"start":7031.321,"end":7050.734,"text":"這些傳統部隊在與地面部隊是不是有協調性的共同的一個協調因為目前來講據說還沒有各做各的希望了解國際對無人機部隊的相關信念作為不當"},{"start":7051.374,"end":7071.287,"text":"不過當初給本席的回覆是陸軍表示目前只有人員操作無人機的訓練還沒有進行到相關的戰術的訓練那參謀長回答這個問題好不好我們是不是連山來回答一下就這個相關的"},{"start":7072.782,"end":7091.908,"text":"我想無人機有一個整體的規劃我們包括有訓示室來負責的相關的一些無人機的訓練那整體的這個作戰的整體的無人機的整體的規劃也有一些好 委員好 我是作機室次長跟委員報告 我們無人機是先從作戰運用規劃來去規劃整體的構想"},{"start":7095.149,"end":7124.211,"text":"接著會依照不同的包含尖針型 攻擊型無人機並且整合到我們現行的精準武器還有各軍種的制式的武器怎麼結合整體的作戰應用來形成多層次的擊殺鏈因此依照這樣子的作戰應用我們在國防部已經測班了一個作戰區無人機的作戰應用的一個準則並且再交由各軍種依照他的戰術任務的執行來去測班他作戰應用的準則跟教則"},{"start":7124.952,"end":7146.559,"text":"必須去執行訓練那這個相關的訓練規劃都在各軍種的訓練班隊還有現在成編之後無人機的大隊各單位的無人機的編組會持續向下做細部的發展好 向下待會我要問你你們後續的進度如何本身發現很多人在看待國防部容易產生一個誤區"},{"start":7148.18,"end":7165.134,"text":"就是擁有武器就代表擁有戰力但是其實戰力的來源之一是如何以戰術發揮人員和武器的優勢那因此本身想請教無人機大隊要成立除了飛手養成外"},{"start":7169.741,"end":7179.731,"text":"硬要還要包含什麼在含電維護員資料分析人員和指揮官這些人員是否已經開始著手培訓"},{"start":7181.089,"end":7201.904,"text":"有沒有左手裴信跟委員報告我們是以無人機的到最小是一個無人機的小組那這裡面當然包含到組長 監偵的操作手跟攻擊手還有後勤的這個操作手所以他是一個整體的編組那至於他整體編組的各部的執行作為跟後續的訓練建議這個私下再跟委員做報告"},{"start":7202.384,"end":7229.225,"text":"無人機的部隊要形成一個大隊了但你們現在都還沒有著手尤其是航電維護員包含資料分析員因為你的飛機你的無人機在整個在飛航當中的時候取得了很多很多相關的資料回到這個地方要恢復你們給你們一個答案資料啊可是你們現在連這個都還沒有著手那什麼時候著手"},{"start":7230.425,"end":7244.953,"text":"跟委員報告一下事實上我們海軍的瑞淵無人機目前在您提到的這些項目裡面它已經是既有的編制人員那針對比較複雜的部分事實上是未來MQ-9B的這個部分"},{"start":7246.073,"end":7267.37,"text":"他會給我們帶來全新的這些訓練的功能那這個部分我們初期的人員的選訓已經開始進行那從明年年初開始我們就會把總指教官送到美國去接受從航管一直到電子等等各方面的訓練這些國防部這邊他都有一個完整的規劃好 那個主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":7268.382,"end":7279.217,"text":"那個無人系大隊成立在一起除了目前非所的信念是否已充足也想知道各司令部是否已經無人系的戰術戰術教範跨軍種的是否已經有"},{"start":7284.283,"end":7305.143,"text":"這個連戰的叫飯那無人機是否在未來戰場的主流讓無人機的部隊形成戰力必須要有充足的準備從基礎的平台操作緊急程序安全作業到終極的任務規範流程徵收程序終據的"},{"start":7309.613,"end":7326.778,"text":"這個連管理電池對抗再到高級的地面火力空防電子戰整合任務即時的聯絡流程等所以這個就是你們現在本來就要準備要著手"},{"start":7327.738,"end":7341.062,"text":"該信念的該怎麼樣的趕快無人機的成立大隊不是一個開玩笑我們花了這麼多的一個公帑我們應該要積極要著手趕快來整合部長"},{"start":7343.576,"end":7361.776,"text":"跟委員報告我想現在你講的無人機大隊是指陸軍的無人機大隊但事實上無人機型態是非常的多樣剛剛我們站位是提到了像MQ-9B這個是屬於空軍在運用的高高空的無人機"},{"start":7363.49,"end":7383.508,"text":"另外有關這些針尖型的不管是瑞淵或者是濟江瑞淵2這些等等它的運用本來就我們有這樣的一個尖針型的無人機的一個配附跟編制那相關的這些陸軍的無人機是比較屬於路面"},{"start":7384.088,"end":7407.1,"text":"操作型一二型的這個無人機所以這個每個層級的一個交換都會不一樣那我們都陸續已經在進行當好不要到時候成立了只是一個形同形式上的一個空殼無人機的部隊我想你們趕快因為後續我會追蹤你們的進度你們著手"},{"start":7407.88,"end":7420.585,"text":"信念整個過程應該要再我再來我再來下次我再來追蹤好不好以上謝謝謝偉謝謝黃仁委員的質詢各位長官請回座先喝杯水下面我們請馬文君委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":7439.994,"end":7441.455,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長是 馬偉好部長好 今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億"},{"start":7465.617,"end":7494.031,"text":"漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛"},{"start":7495.505,"end":7519.121,"text":"我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經"},{"start":7519.901,"end":7539.263,"text":"非常嚴重的落後在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促 督管我們的進度在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位"},{"start":7539.904,"end":7564.36,"text":"那我們也實際去廠裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個二無戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在"},{"start":7566.061,"end":7590.83,"text":"它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中"},{"start":7591.73,"end":7615.371,"text":"那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要全數交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險"},{"start":7616.877,"end":7623.239,"text":"所以其實蔡部長你剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出廠儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的說今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些"},{"start":7646.945,"end":7674.483,"text":"狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在三月跟六月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到四個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的"},{"start":7675.84,"end":7688.45,"text":"包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工連假日也在趕工這個是陸陸續續因為"},{"start":7691.673,"end":7716.794,"text":"他在牽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是"},{"start":7719.036,"end":7727.563,"text":"那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎"},{"start":7730.348,"end":7757.531,"text":"這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年是我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對"},{"start":7759.872,"end":7774.684,"text":"到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回這個主計長是不是有要說明"},{"start":7784.918,"end":7809.576,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範再看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定"},{"start":7813.559,"end":7828.52,"text":"以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也訂頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定"},{"start":7829.341,"end":7847.971,"text":"在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席因為其實你的"},{"start":7848.812,"end":7869.53,"text":"國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊那因為"},{"start":7872.312,"end":7882.098,"text":"我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的"},{"start":7899.744,"end":7909.628,"text":"那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的騎乘"},{"start":7917.631,"end":7920.173,"text":"所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙"},{"start":7940.962,"end":7956.877,"text":"報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備整備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的"},{"start":7959.259,"end":7965.603,"text":"邊線還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用變特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年"},{"start":7989.159,"end":8006.447,"text":"就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行"},{"start":8008.348,"end":8035.076,"text":"你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算1000多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的機率這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是"},{"start":8038.154,"end":8052.284,"text":"部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的"},{"start":8054.727,"end":8069.354,"text":"所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎"},{"start":8080.661,"end":8099.363,"text":"他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款"},{"start":8100.543,"end":8103.725,"text":"支付這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款"},{"start":8126.776,"end":8145.057,"text":"現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬"},{"start":8148.7,"end":8153.982,"text":"這跟現在民間的商船跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船可是跟剛剛的戰力是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來如果"},{"start":8164.046,"end":8168.508,"text":"193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪"},{"start":8186.156,"end":8188.077,"text":"就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久"},{"start":8200.988,"end":8210.334,"text":"可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們它非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰它罰一年兩年對它來說它明年還是轉虧為盈啊"},{"start":8226.244,"end":8253.365,"text":"是 包委員很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合約合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來所以訂定出來這個"},{"start":8255.306,"end":8258.529,"text":"雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部"},{"start":8279.144,"end":8283.886,"text":"都說這個節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把他罰到他的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦他到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果他必須要做非常大的變動的時候他甚至不是原型艦你後續艦"},{"start":8303.195,"end":8318.306,"text":"都已經是重新建造所以這是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來也是希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到"},{"start":8321.144,"end":8339.24,"text":"所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成"},{"start":8340.461,"end":8342.803,"text":"多一點時間 部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎"},{"start":8360.114,"end":8364.376,"text":"如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的態度到時候幫我們做認證它的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對軍購也好"},{"start":8386.408,"end":8409.768,"text":"我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館"},{"start":8413.291,"end":8415.892,"text":"他從設計變更 他罰了300萬可是又多給了8000萬 甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的"},{"start":8431.519,"end":8451.091,"text":"而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好"},{"start":8451.721,"end":8470.396,"text":"所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員的質詢下一位質詢的委員是沈伯陽委員"},{"start":8493.404,"end":8494.006,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":8502.671,"end":8529.18,"text":"是 深圍部長好因為我們今天清晨我跟定語委員才剛回來從台美的這一個國防工業會議裡面當然有很多我覺得是滿重要的事情但是因為這個是很多跟預算比較有關係等於這個總預算的時候我們再多來討論我再問幾個比較偏向時事的問題第一個當然就是還是我們這個灰色地帶的一個侵擾我最少想問"},{"start":8530.66,"end":8557.131,"text":"這個空域跟海域的這個空域的有兩點我想問一下第一個當然就是在六月跟八月的時候都各有一次都是這個醫療專機這個醫療專機受到影響之後這個其實確實的其實已經造成一個很大的困擾但我也比較好奇的一件事情就是第二個我想問的就除了我們的一般的因應措施之外就是說其實在這一個海外應該看起來像是境外的一個報導"},{"start":8558.311,"end":8584.419,"text":"有特別去放了一些假消息說這一個醫療專機其實是專門要去蒐集什麼情報等等之類的這樣的一個假消息那目前來講像類似像對這樣的一個應對我是有看到這一個應該是安捷航空他自己有發聲明那國防部目前來講對第一個就是說對於這種灰色地帶的應對目前的這個處置還有像這個對方在後續又再放假消息的處置是大概是什麼"},{"start":8585.53,"end":8602.64,"text":"我想相關的事件的情況是不是先由秦次次先做一個說明委員好 我是秦次次長我們掌握到的當天的確有這個事情發生這架飛機它是在民航的管制底下因為是安捷航空"},{"start":8603.26,"end":8627.786,"text":"他原本就是要到金門地區去做這樣子的訓練前後的確有發生過這個事情不過這架飛機它是按照民用的飛航規則在民航的管制底下進行飛行所以我們也不認為說這樣子的在民用的飛機遭受到中共的軍機採取這樣子的舉措是適當的跟委員做簡單的報告"},{"start":8630.587,"end":8632.712,"text":"那我們有相對的這個"},{"start":8634.814,"end":8661.207,"text":"飛機有飛上去做一個映出因為這個事情就是說這讓我回想到這個去年那個金門的也是這個禁限職水域的這個事件那當時對方其實也是用了虛假的消息去定義說當時的這個金門水域所發生的事情所以藉此去擴張他的法律的權利這一次雖然他們沒有做一樣的事情但前置作業其實是非常類似的所以我覺得可能今後對於類似這樣的一個事情的一個處於我覺得應該是特別重要"},{"start":8661.707,"end":8675.946,"text":"但第二件事情就跟海域有關其實跟這件事情很類似就是說在這個黃岩島這也是應該就是上個禮拜的事情而已這個黃岩島現在可以看到有兩艘中國海軍軍艦四艘海警船以及四艘民兵"},{"start":8676.827,"end":8702.468,"text":"前面這個陳宏康委員也有提到一直到今天為止其實都還有類似的一個活動那現在它就是有這種三位一體這樣的一個運用那我有看到因為在這次夜報裡面有特別提到一件事情就是1月他有去修這個國軍經常戰備時期突發狀況的一個處置規定是否能夠先稍微說明一下類似這樣一個處置規定不用詳細的內容因為我看到夜報裡面有講到這一個所謂的高中低風險的這一個分野"},{"start":8705.03,"end":8728.781,"text":"遇到不同的風險的狀況應該要怎麼辦但是就是說以這樣的一個狀況來講會不會陷入到像不管是我去年講的那個事情還有像剛剛安捷航空所遇到的事情就是當對方用虛假的消息去劃定說這是一個什麼事件的時候我們有沒有把這一種對方定義成什麼事件藉此來擴張法律權利的這一件事情放到相關的這一個處置規定"},{"start":8732.058,"end":8754.113,"text":"報告委員我是座議事次長公務員報告剛剛委員所提的這個突發狀況處置規定我們就是因應今年這兩年開始中共灰色地帶應處的這種狀況跟他的情勢越來越多那所以我們就律定了一個叫做授權舉證跟在突發狀況處置規定裡面去律定他交戰規則等相關的規範會區分"},{"start":8758.376,"end":8783.99,"text":"範圍跟類型那授權於我們戰備部隊管制的作戰單位比如說建址部跟工作部可以依據他所面臨的狀況去採取及時的處置作為那當然因為中共不斷的在做一些模擬跟應用他的能力上的增長去做一些轉變所以我們每年都會針對不同的狀況去做修班像我們現在也開始在彙整各單位所面臨到一些在我們目前看到比較"},{"start":8785.531,"end":8811.481,"text":"異常的一些動態會持續納進來做修班這部分跟委員做說明對 因為這個就是像你剛剛提到就是說譬如說它的範圍是什麼樣子它的類型是什麼樣子所以我們相關應該要有什麼處置對不對我們在去年的那一個就是金門水域發生這一個事件的時候在當時那時候部長還沒有上任那時候還是邱部長那時候我就有提到說是不是應該要有這樣的一個處置規定那離現在應該也有超過一年半的時間"},{"start":8812.981,"end":8836.6,"text":"當時其實也有到辦公室先討論了一番因為我知道處事規定的詳細狀況不適合在這個公開場合講但那個時候我除了提醒要一定的規範之外因為這樣才有一個SOP我們才知道要怎麼去應處另外一個最重要的事情就是因為對方都會去利用這樣的一個情勢去放消息比如說他今天在做這個事情的時候他知道我們要怎麼去反應"},{"start":8838.262,"end":8854.105,"text":"結果不管是在他們的媒體上面或者說透過台灣去放一些消息說其實是台灣這邊在做一個挑釁什麼等等之類的就是它會有一個政治的因素放在跟這一個情勢的發生是把它扣在一起的"},{"start":8854.925,"end":8878.566,"text":"這個時候呢 像去年的時候他還甚至放了這個假的像海委會的這個假的這個對話記錄啊什麼等等之類的這一些事情它是屬於政治它不是在一開始講的這種範圍還有這個類型裡面但它卻是會遇到的所以遇到的時候呢比如說像我們的 比如說新站的單位比如說我們的正站的單位應該要怎麼運出是不是應該也要把這個納入裡面這樣我們在這個整體的規範的時候才可能會比較順暢"},{"start":8884.168,"end":8900.502,"text":"我想第一個當然就國安部的部分我們每天會有一些暫停請的一個匯報會來就這個部分做一個應處另外剛剛委員提到其實我覺得是有兩個面向一個是認知戰一個是法律戰"},{"start":8901.383,"end":8920.518,"text":"在認知戰的這個部分的話那麼因為這個相關的部分可能有一些是涉及到跟海巡也涉及到甚至其他的部會所以在認知戰的這個回應上面不只是簽到國安部所以國安會會就這個部分來主導會做一些關於反認知作戰的一些"},{"start":8921.679,"end":8948.717,"text":"另外法律戰的部分也就是說共軍這種灰色地帶的這個情擾它事實上是要形成一種台海內海化的這種一種長臂管轄的一種概念來不管是之前之中電軍這種公佈或者是這種海域有關這個海警船或者民兵漁船這種然後軍艦圍繞台灣這種的都涉及到這個法律戰所以這些法律戰的這些相關作為我們要來讓這個"},{"start":8950.502,"end":8972.981,"text":"尤其是國際社會也來清楚的話就法律戰的部分現在正在研擬相關的這些我們引用相關的這些國際法的規範我會來進行一些法律戰的反制作為謝謝部長因為部長也是法律專家因為我在國際的論壇上面在討論這些事情的時候我比較擔心的事情就是今天我們講到跟認知有關的或者說譬如說輿論有關的"},{"start":8974.122,"end":8999.092,"text":"有可能他國安會 相關的國安局他們都可能會有相關的一些跨部會的討論但一旦牽扯到跟法律利率相關的不可能是法務部出來的他有可能會請到跟外交部有關但其實並沒有一個主責的部門去弄法律戰所以各國現在在遇到中國尤其像譬如說中國跟菲律賓他們遇到這種法律戰的時候畢竟第一線遇到的就還是要嘛就是海巡 要嘛就是國軍"},{"start":9000.452,"end":9023.684,"text":"這個時候到底是誰才是應該主管這件事情誰應該去劃定這一個範圍其實在每一個國家都會出現一個有點不明確就不知道到底應該是誰來做所以這件事情如果後續能夠有更多的討論我覺得應該是樂見其成我們跟國安會已經有一個一段時間的討論這個部分國安會會結合相關的部會包括外交部也好包括"},{"start":9024.804,"end":9040.069,"text":"海委會也好包括我們也好還有其他部會我想都會有一個我們會有一個法律戰的應處作為會出來但我想這個部分可能要時下再跟委員做個說明沒問題"},{"start":9041.249,"end":9058.448,"text":"那接下來還有一個就其他一些比較細節也是跟這一次這個這個我看夜報比較有關係的就是說這個是跟國軍服裝有關因為我們現在大家就講因為這一次在這一個不管是在救災等等之類的最近國軍的形象國人的認知看起來是有一個顯著的提升"},{"start":9059.028,"end":9073.954,"text":"但是在內部的這個士氣有時候我覺得也是見微知著那我在跟幾個國軍的兄弟姐妹在聊天的時候就發現他們對於這些服裝的設計我看基層的反應有時候不是那麼的好"},{"start":9074.734,"end":9099.609,"text":"就是說有一些我就不要講軍種有一些軍種是大家這個在購買上意願是比較高但有一些大家購買意願稍低一點稍低一點可能是因為覺得那個Logo設計的不是很好看又或者說它的字體過大等等之類的導致它今天要去連是穿的意願不要說買如果即使它今天買了連那個穿的意願在有一些軍種是比較低"},{"start":9100.229,"end":9125.019,"text":"我在問的過程當中當然很多人會覺得說因為他們的意見沒有被反映到有時候他們對於這個現在我們這個對於美學大家可以看到我們這個在每一次國慶的時候大家對於美學的討論其實也很多這個時候的基層有一些人他對於這些到底什麼叫好看 什麼不好看哪一個色號 哪樣的一些字體哪樣的設計會比較好大家其實會有一些想法如果能夠廣納這些意見我覺得也是蠻重要的"},{"start":9125.599,"end":9146.938,"text":"但有時候我覺得以長官來講可能比如說這個價格不要太高就是品質OK然後價格不要太高有時候很容易就是往這種就是低價單價低的這個品項就會來做購買但如果說能夠第一個是廣大意見第二個就是其實在整個軍種裡面有些人是本來也就有設計相關的專業如果說他們能夠進來一起能夠設計的話是不是比較能夠讓大家在軍"},{"start":9152.423,"end":9157.942,"text":"軍中裡面能夠感覺到能夠受到重視是不是請這個看部長或者說請相關部門回答一下"},{"start":9158.59,"end":9184.409,"text":"就是說共通性的部分的話如果是共通性可以去購買那委員剛剛提到了我們善用美學的人才來遴選年輕時代期望的這個軍品的部分我想我們會來演繹就是說不管是陸海空三軍他們的這個服裝供售站所能夠納入的這個共通性的這個產品的這個"},{"start":9185.991,"end":9193.378,"text":"更好的一個設計剛剛有講到說有些軍種可能比較好我想我們會來檢討看看是讓整個的讓這些官司兵們能夠"},{"start":9205.569,"end":9226.106,"text":"我們要有其一的一個美學的一個展現這樣子讓官兵覺得不管是你哪一個軍種都能夠買到他覺得不錯的一個產品但是有一些是制式的服裝的部分這些可能就沒有辦法說是通用這樣子"},{"start":9226.286,"end":9237.952,"text":"那這個要看你是屬於哪個菌種但是菌種本身它的也應該是可以來強化我這邊問的比較像是原來的運動服那些的"},{"start":9241.554,"end":9261.775,"text":"我就覺得這個因為我後面有提到這個APP這個跨軍種購買的問題其實也不是說一定要因為有時候他們自己私底下買的什麼其實也很方便但今天之所以提到這一點就是因為想要讓他們有一些競爭就是說這一個不同的軍種之間的設計有一些競爭反而可以讓更好的產品能夠出來那這樣的話我相信兄弟姐妹也會覺得自己的意見被重視"},{"start":9262.856,"end":9289.037,"text":"那這一個就延伸到下一個問題這個在之前我忘了是在什麼時候我有問過類似的問題就是這些我們很多有一些留營意願的剛剛其實定宇文也有提到一些那這邊我想問的就是因為我們真的蠻多他到國外去受訓回來之後那我這一次也是在跟他們聊的時候我就發現一個我覺得是一個比較危險的事情就是很多人都甚至想說想說要賠錢但他想離開"},{"start":9291.579,"end":9313.292,"text":"那我說如果說只是一兩個這樣的一個個案就算了但是已經聽到為數不少那我會很擔心就是說這種事情慢慢一直發生的話其實對整個世紀也會有很大的影響那這個監察院在2023年的時候其實也有做過這個相關的報告我那時候質詢的時候是在那個2023年報告出來沒多久之後我問那時候國防部有說有會想辦法"},{"start":9314.913,"end":9334.845,"text":"要讓這些在海外訓練的人才回到這邊之後呢能夠 性量能夠讓他融入到軍中不然的話我之前在這個之前我在問的時候我就發現他們很多人在國外受訓然後回來之後結果最多是叫他們做翻譯做傳譯因為他們英文好但是我總覺得他們能夠他們到國外做訓練這件事情"},{"start":9335.365,"end":9348.744,"text":"最主要應該不是他們英文好而已而是他們有對於這個不管是先進的這些技術先進的文化管理的方式等等之類的能夠把這個帶入到國軍做更好的改革我看到業報其實這次有講到DIO就是那個創新"},{"start":9351.307,"end":9377.698,"text":"已經比去年更好了因為他有更多的跟這些不管是採購上的合作什麼等等之類這個進步看到了但關於這一種留外官兵他不管是到外面這個有派職過的或者有訓練過的能不能夠讓他回來到國軍能夠做更好的整合這個部分這一年來大概做了哪些努力各位委員報告我想我們現在尤其是我這邊都相關的很重視這些國外軍校畢業生的這個"},{"start":9378.798,"end":9391.83,"text":"循正常的金管來歷練的這個部分所以我們國防部本身就每半年會做一次控這個金管的一個控管所以半年就會那現在都掌握了有譬如說近200個人對這個近200個人他的"},{"start":9395.433,"end":9420.894,"text":"循這個金管的這個歷練來讓它這個能夠逐步在軍中能夠成長我想不會把它當作這個翻譯來使用這個狀況我們已經是每半年要控管一次那也請各軍種要注意到這個狀況好 因為時間關係這個主席再給我20秒那希望就是說大概有一個簡單的統計就是說這一些人到時候流於這個狀況什麼等等之類的"},{"start":9422.595,"end":9440.901,"text":"是不是在這兩個禮拜能給我這個資料希望未來以後也不要再發生因為現在又聽到一些我就有點擔心了我想因為這個可能不以公開來說明這些相關人員我們私下可以就這些管控的部分跟委員做一個詳細的說明好 謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝接下來謝謝"},{"start":9448.74,"end":9452.519,"text":"不好意思 沈伯陽委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘"},{"start":9819.254,"end":9827.44,"text":"請各位就座現在開始開會接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":9850.189,"end":9876.16,"text":"是林委部長早安我要提的這個命題當然我想是現在全民針對這個國防部比較關心的那當然就是防範散兵這個議題喔那麼當然我們知道喔最近如果您有留意到這些社群平台當中就有提到身為公眾人物尤其是藝人大概就是"},{"start":9877.04,"end":9895.194,"text":"造他的這個所謂社會形象來讓粉絲買單那麼一個藝人紅不紅當然我覺得作為我們一樣是政治人物的部分我們沒有辦法去做太多的評論但是相較於我們鄰近的韓國他們每一個"},{"start":9896.735,"end":9917.904,"text":"韓國的男性的藝人只要是不當兵或者是找到理由不當兵被社會發現的話就會出現根本不要在娛樂圈混了那麼我覺得這當然也是跟國情有點不一樣那麼對於現在這些藝人到底他們是用了什麼樣的方式能夠不服兵役那麼這個部分我相信檢調單位以及內政部也都說了要把這些相關的規範再來做報導"},{"start":9925.447,"end":9949.415,"text":"但是身為這個所謂的兵役的主管機關我想要請這個部長先看一下一個影片好了因為這個影片我自己看了覺得這跟真的是在人情世故上面台灣也許真的很多的藝人朋友應該也要看一下這個影片我來放一下這個是韓國的藝人玄冰我想這個"},{"start":9956.152,"end":9974.108,"text":"他在退役的時候他辦了一個粉絲在營區當中迎接他那他為了感謝這個粉絲等了他三年喔那麼他甚至於是直接在這個營區外面喔對粉絲行這個他們韓國叫做大禮啦那"},{"start":9976.499,"end":10002.935,"text":"我真的是覺得身為這個國防委員台灣的這些藝人朋友們真的要看一看就是如果你去當兵而且你為國家做奉獻我相信這個你對國家做出奉獻的這種榮譽感粉絲不會離開你而且粉絲會真的覺得你要對國家有所付出所以今天回到部長我這前情提要講的比較久那就是"},{"start":10004.215,"end":10032.562,"text":"在這個現在被揭露的閃兵的名單當中喔甚至於還有人是有拿到了這個我們的所謂三金就是金鐘 金馬 金曲有提名的 甚至於有得獎的那我要強調的就是如果說現在他被發現他是用各種不法的手段逃避了兵役"},{"start":10034.057,"end":10055.669,"text":"結果我們的國家文化部還給他三金的獎勵這不是很諷刺嗎所以部長我當然知道這是文化部的事但是身為這個主管機關部長有沒有可能跟文化部商量對於這些身為公眾人物尤其是藝人就是靠形象來賺取社會上面或者是粉絲上面給他們"},{"start":10062.469,"end":10085.617,"text":"的支持的時候那像這樣的獎項是不是應該要拿回來至少我們覺得他不足以拿到這樣的榮譽是吧 部長你怎麼看我想一南意圖以這些不法的手段來逃避兵役那是有將由內政部來依法以送檢調來偵辦那我們認為這樣子的一種"},{"start":10092.369,"end":10115.994,"text":"不法的這種方式來規避這個兵役的義務的話當然我們都是深切認為要期期為不可啦所以國安部的態度當然是希望就是說大家都要服務他應盡的義務那不要有妨礙兵役的這樣子的一個行為"},{"start":10117.348,"end":10131.473,"text":"因為我真的 我認為啦這個說起來藝人他一定會有示範的作用現在在民間當然從一開始這個事件爆發從王大陸開始一直到現在幾個這個被約談的藝人來講我覺得他就是一種示範的作用"},{"start":10136.295,"end":10159.463,"text":"那這樣的示範的作用當然是錯誤的示範或是不良的示範我會特別提起這個部分是除了他應該要面對的法律責任之外我是不是可以請部長可以跟文化部做跨部會的一個商量甚至於要提出這樣的一個建議這是本席的建議但是我認為這個必須要有一些做法否則對這些藝人來講他可能說我就出來道個歉反正呢也過了這麼多年了但是這種榮譽"},{"start":10166.105,"end":10182.314,"text":"國家不應該給雖然說各個部會之間是平行的但是總不能是因為部長你認為岐岐不可的事情但是文化部所主辦的三金金鐘 金馬 金曲還頒獎給他那雖然說這個是已經拿到的獎項那已經拿到的獎項能不能要求拿回來我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮"},{"start":10196.873,"end":10222.972,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是對這樣的一個行為要予以譴責但是就這個有關相關他得獎的這個部分的話我想我們還是要尊重文化部的權責好沒有關係這通通的題目我也會來問文化部但是至少部長這樣的做法就是一個不良示範那如果國家還給予其他獎項的肯定那這不等於是打臉國防部嗎"},{"start":10224.073,"end":10240.778,"text":"而不是打臉那些其他來禁扶貧易的禁義務的人嗎就是他一方面他可以用盡各種方法不履行國民的義務但是一方面他可以這不只是拿獎拿獎還可以拿獎金那我覺得像這樣的"},{"start":10244.119,"end":10270.737,"text":"我覺得身為公眾人物或是身為藝人這是覺得岐溪不可違但是我相信部長因為你講得很清楚啦這個不是國防部的業務那沒有問題我也會來跟文化部長來做詢答那麼第二個當然我們要扭轉喔這個有關於當兵的負面印象國防部這一針對你們所提出來的報告就是我們現在在國軍招募已經有成了但是還是有一些努力的空間喔那麼國防部目前呢在"},{"start":10271.637,"end":10284.652,"text":"到9月30號為止流行率是有到86.7%那麼比以往要來的高那麼在9月30號已經招募了13000多人那麼也達到了目標的89%那麼在這個部分喔"},{"start":10287.594,"end":10304.241,"text":"為什麼我會用這個有關於閃兵的這個部分來做開頭就是我相信我們在有關於提升不論是自願役或是義務役的薪資的部分還有在整個設備的部分其實都有做努力那麼部長這邊或是國防部這裡認為還有什麼可以加強的部分我想我們主要就是說讓這個整個"},{"start":10314.079,"end":10330.132,"text":"著重於這個戰備演訓的這個核心任務這一塊然後讓他們覺得當兵是具有一個榮譽感然後而且我們對相關的管理要"},{"start":10331.212,"end":10355.665,"text":"我一直提的這個檢法思維的這樣的一個管理的作為然後另外呢我想對於冠病的實質照顧我們也要來提升那相關這些應該如果有不適應的這個現象的話我們也要從事一個相關的輔導讓他能夠有一個能夠持續的願意為國來服務這樣"},{"start":10358.803,"end":10372.31,"text":"好 所以其實不只是物質上 薪資上在心理上其實部長剛剛也特別提到了所以本席要來請問一下就是我稍微看了一下115年度的預算就是114年度在三讀之後 政戰局是388萬軍醫局是1360萬一共是總計是1748萬但是我們115年度全部就都編在政戰局裡面就是有關於"},{"start":10387.618,"end":10392.561,"text":"國軍的心理健康照顧的這個部分其實從問卷上面來看都很滿意啊這個同意繼續維持或者是覺得對於官兵在身心上面的照顧的都是同意加上渴的加起來都高達99%大家幾乎都覺得不錯可是為什麼這個預算反而少了300萬可以理解 可不可以講一下"},{"start":10414.838,"end":10439.338,"text":"在野黨的委員或者是我們這些立法委員都還沒有砍預算你們就自己把預算往下降原因在哪裡如果大家都覺得很滿意委員好 我是鄭正恩局長跟你報告因為這個心理衛生心理健康的這個照護方案是從今年的2月13號開始試行也就是說它今年是第一次辦所以我們在預估它所需的人數上面我們是依照衛福部的這個年輕族群的一個覆蓋比的一個算法"},{"start":10444.162,"end":10466.144,"text":"那當然我們在宣傳上面我們還要持續在努力我們是依照今年去使用的人數去推估明年可以去運用這項方案 善用這項資源的人數所以這個方案我們會持續在這個準決預算就是精準去使用這項預算的一個考量之下那我們未來會持續努力的去推廣這項的服務"},{"start":10467.645,"end":10471.528,"text":"局長您的言下之意是您認為使用的人數會變少嗎不然預算減少只有兩個原因一個大概就是費用變便宜但是我認為像這樣的費用一定是有它的這個就是一定的標準在那裡嘛"},{"start":10483.979,"end":10506.326,"text":"那一定就是人變少那麼您認為人變少是因為使用的人會變少大家心裡都變健康了嗎我想局長的意思應該是說我們今年的2月13號到9月30號我們依照這個使用的人數來推估明年然後來核實來編列所以你們就是已經很核實編列了已經滯降300萬"},{"start":10508.287,"end":10512.13,"text":"這個部分可能要我原本是很關心你們因為我認為這個心理輔導的過去大概都說Paul是輔導長或是說做一些身心上面的調節這是我 我沒有當過兵啦我是在這個軍教電影裡面看到那現在我們有專業的心理師在做協助的時候那我其實比較好奇的是這樣的算法是什麼"},{"start":10529.241,"end":10532.204,"text":"那如果說你們是真的已經核實編列編得很紮實了那在這裡你們要大聲講出來希望這個委員們不要再來砍這個預算因為我真的認為這樣的預算非常重要"},{"start":10541.071,"end":10558.883,"text":"謝謝委員 我也非常感謝所有委員對於我們官兵心理健康的關切跟照顧那麼我們確實是依照今年預算編列後面評估它可能會有一些餘裕的情況因為我們今年大概使用了4200多人次那我想"},{"start":10559.803,"end":10572.533,"text":"這樣子的一個宣傳的力度我們會持續的強化那預估到明年可能會使用的我們已經先把這個預算先做一個核實的精算了那麼未來會跟著他使用人數的狀況我們再去做調節"},{"start":10574.394,"end":10602.272,"text":"好 所以其實局長講得很清楚啦就是其實一年每一次每一個人是補助一千六然後一年其實可以有六次但是因為知道的人不多所以會使用不多所以有宣傳上面的問題但是當然我不希望說是因為也有認為說因為使用的人太多可能不太好但是我認為這兩者之間希望不是有正相關而是真的我們的國軍弟兄都是因為身心健康使用率不高是這樣子"},{"start":10603.328,"end":10626.777,"text":"我想我們不會說他使用過多我想我們應該多多來來來宣導讓這個每個人都認為有需要這樣子的一個協助的時候他都能夠得到這個經費的益助好 謝謝謝謝接下來請徐巧欽委員上台質詢"},{"start":10635.404,"end":10660.674,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請顧立雄 顧部長有請顧部長部長好其實又快到年末了所以我要來關心一下我們的服裝攻售戰我們國軍官兵的個人服裝的磨損換補過去我們是用手填單耗時又費工"},{"start":10664.896,"end":10681.031,"text":"新的政策上路之後從2021年開始我們有服裝供售站正式營運除了實體店面之外這個資訊系統可以讓國軍官兵透過Apple自主選購然後透過物流宅配送達"},{"start":10682.212,"end":10705.905,"text":"這個改變其實是好的因為它也跟上了這個時代的腳步當然我們是個別的軍種可以看到個別軍種你可以採購的項目每一位官兵最高每年的額度是9860元因為一點是一元當年度合配的點數年底要使用完畢限制在買工費的品項上面"},{"start":10706.425,"end":10722.177,"text":"也就是說也蠻多官兵跟我們反映說每到年底的時候像現在已經10月10月 11月 12月開始就會有很多的長官們希望你這個點數還沒有花完的趕快去買但是我想先問一下部長您看一下這張照片"},{"start":10725.912,"end":10751.676,"text":"這個毛巾啊 這個大小大概多少啊75x33的毛巾喔 你大概可以看一下75公分x33公分的毛巾這個我們所有當兵的在你的不管陸海空三軍喔 在你的這個APP上面都可以看到我想要問一下部長 你覺得這個國軍公發制式毛巾如果要購買的話 你覺得大概應該多少的價格是比較合理的一條物價標準來說"},{"start":10756.928,"end":10778.217,"text":"我可能沒有辦法回答為什麼你覺得就是就是因你啊就是欸等一下你們旁邊不要這邊打小報告我問的是部長覺得這個毛巾大概應該要花多少錢買是你覺得比較合理的價格範圍嗎你不用告訴我說比如說一個區別區別的數字一個區間也可以"},{"start":10779.81,"end":10786.512,"text":"比如假設我講誇張一點300到600我就亂講了但是我的意思說一個價格的區間您覺得怎麼樣是比較合理的呢剛剛他們有調這個毛巾的部分大概陸海君不太一樣大概90到110吧你覺得合理嗎我覺得應該是要看這個毛巾的品質毛巾的品質這樣子的品質你告訴我說90到110好再來我要問一個問題就是呢"},{"start":10810.393,"end":10818.016,"text":"來陸軍海軍空軍都過來好不好分別講一下你們賣的這個毛巾分別是多少錢同一條毛巾我們竟然陸海空三軍的價格是不一樣的我們今天就可以來看哪一個軍種被當成盤子各位我是在幫大家爭取福利啊包委員我自己在服裝工作站還蠻青睞這個毛巾你有錢啊你我沒有我大概買是100塊"},{"start":10837.679,"end":10844.664,"text":"你不是買一百塊啦我印象中你一百一十塊啊來來來先跳回去我們一個一個看我們一個一個看來海軍來買多少錢海軍一百塊一百塊好來那個空軍多少錢包委員空軍是九十塊你看陸軍那個陳建一參謀長你是一百一十塊啊"},{"start":10862.345,"end":10866.229,"text":"因為應該還是要看他的那個所謂沒有因為不因為的你登進去就是這樣子我直接開給你們看了空軍是90塊錢海軍是100塊錢陸軍是110塊錢我們陸軍地雄人最多薪資範圍來說的話其實比較辛苦然後我們買東西買最貴"},{"start":10882.259,"end":10885.823,"text":"你覺得這樣子對我們的國軍地就合理嗎陸軍簡直被當盤子這三個毛巾是一模一樣的毛巾結果我們空軍可以買90塊錢其實已經非常貴了然後呢我們這個海軍100塊然後陸軍110塊我們剛剛三位參謀長裡面"},{"start":10901.943,"end":10919.878,"text":"空軍跟海軍都答對代表你們再怎麼說你們有掌握你們弟兄的這個具體的情況欸 為什麼你說你常常買結果你講的價格跟上面不一樣啊我今天不跟你探討這個喔好 那我要講的事情是那個部長我要跟你反映你們三位可以先回去喔 這個"},{"start":10921.679,"end":10934.904,"text":"恭喜我們海軍跟空軍有正確答對我們至少知道到底這發生什麼事情我今天舉毛巾的例子不是說我只看毛巾這個品項而是說這個品項三軍都有那"},{"start":10935.734,"end":10960.707,"text":"部長您覺得呢第一個我剛剛問的是價格的合理性我剛剛已經給您看過了它就是一條70×33的毛巾在市面上賣市面上賣一般來說最多就是50塊錢但是呢我們要賣到90到110塊就是第一點第二點在於什麼呢在於我們陸海空三軍對同一個商品賣的是不同的價格那個 部長您覺得合理嗎"},{"start":10965.549,"end":10986.34,"text":"這個採購是不是能夠說明一下不是我先問的是部長你覺得合不合理才在講怎麼採購的嘛你的態度是什麼嘛我想各項產品的材質重量是一樣的我先跟您說我剛看到好像毛巾的部分這個規格就有不一樣來說一下規格哪裡不一樣"},{"start":10988.183,"end":11012.273,"text":"為什麼陸軍可以買這樣的規格海軍能買這樣的規格空軍能買這樣的規格為什麼大家的規格不能統一價格不能統一我想第一點就是說它的規格有135公克也有113公克但是我想還有涉及到材質的部分哪一個是135公克哪一個是130公克陸軍的部分是135公克"},{"start":11015.256,"end":11042.239,"text":"然後呢海軍是113然後呢你剛剛講的是材質的部分繼續說啊這個應該是指重量你不是說材質也不一樣材質我是沒有很清楚了解這三個的材質有什麼不同但我想所以今天我們陸軍弟兄如果他不希望花這麼多的點數他想要買90塊錢的不好意思喔在他的這個系統我是買不到的您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":11042.879,"end":11054.345,"text":"所以我剛剛也在沈委員在質詢的時候我也有提到就是說我想各個通用的這個部分的話好 看下一張我告訴你這個你真的要檢討因為非常多人在表達不滿我只舉一個例子我到時候你們要檢討的時候要所有品項一起檢討我拿這個例子是因為它比較簡單易懂所以我拿這個例子出來跟你講其他的例子更複雜我怕我今天時間是不夠的"},{"start":11069.853,"end":11075.798,"text":"你們可以看一下本來部長你一定要看一下本來賣的毛巾是36塊錢結果後來因為你們改了改成有品牌的所以變成110塊錢我不反對你要賣很貴的毛巾啦但是一般平常日常生活用的國軍所需要的弟兄需要的毛巾便宜的他們買不到了"},{"start":11095.175,"end":11098.017,"text":"現在在這個購物商城上買不到了變成110了你可以看看這些都是國軍弟兄他們匿名上面的抱怨不意外那條毛巾都敢開110塊了原本36塊生活工廠變110香精的"},{"start":11113.127,"end":11119.128,"text":"這有沒有官商勾結的問題買東西樣式少價錢又高得嚇人本來毛巾是36塊結果換了一個生活工廠翻倍變110到年底還強迫大家把點數花完沒有需求還要被硬逼著買一堆自己用不到的東西以前36塊只能買5條還會缺貨最近打開來看到東西怎麼都那麼貴看到新聞圖利場商當然不是指你們一堆才上來看大家的感想"},{"start":11142.834,"end":11170.074,"text":"洗衣袋迎戰賣30到40文創部賣20被說不能賣因為這樣迎戰就賺不到錢所以呢就把它撤掉這就是我們現在國軍弟兄他們在基層的時候所遇到的真實情況如果今天這個雖然事情小可是你要想部長我們國軍弟兄人數這麼多那加起來他就會成為一個很重大的一個問題所以部長我可不可以了解一下你的態度呃"},{"start":11172.631,"end":11188.826,"text":"我想因為委員質詢的事項我必須要下去了解各個品項材質規格等等然後這些事項我想我會來統一來跟他們一起檢討好我跟你說這真的很有檢討的比啊因為抱怨的人非常多來看下一個"},{"start":11189.614,"end":11201.503,"text":"因為可能看起來是一個毛巾他可能幾十塊但是也有可能他的材質是不一樣這個我不是嘛我剛剛跟您說過了我並不是非常他就是呢他就是因為他換了品牌那他的品牌當然是比較好的品牌他的材質跟質量也有可能比較好我沒有辦法確定但是今天就是我們的國軍弟兄他認為過去我買36塊我就可以買到毛巾了也是堪用的"},{"start":11217.856,"end":11229.619,"text":"但是現在我要買我買不到你可以兩種都上架如果你真的覺得一百多塊這高質量的毛巾有這麼重要你兩個都送我沒有意見啊但是現在的狀況是國軍弟兄他們想買的東西現在買不到了就你們一個政策下去之後他們就買不到了"},{"start":11235.601,"end":11258.466,"text":"這是第一點第二點是類似的東西我不管你講135克或130克這個基本上就是類似的東西你陸海空軍的價格竟然是不一樣的我昨天去訪調很多的國軍弟兄我才發現他們根本不知道因為陸軍只能看到陸軍的系統空軍只能看到空軍的系統海軍只能看到海軍的系統所以他們都以為跟我一樣都是買110塊"},{"start":11262.587,"end":11277.835,"text":"結果我一講才發現原來空軍是90喔大家都會有相對剝奪感你只是因為你的這一些APP它看不到對方軍種的所以大家才會覺得說我們原來就是這樣再來"},{"start":11279.088,"end":11288.215,"text":"像這個 我想剛剛委員指教就是說品項一個品項有一個多樣性的選擇我想我下去可以來檢討是你這個第一個多樣性的選擇第二個如果他已經非常類似了就是你才差5克你告訴我說你要差10塊到20塊我覺得如果我是個消費者來說我就不能接受了何況這個點數應該是讓我們的國軍弟兄他有某一種程度的這個福利然後還因為不同的軍種然後有不同的售價我覺得應該要統一來處理再來"},{"start":11309.031,"end":11331.449,"text":"像這種大家會想要買的國軍弟兄會想要買這是屬於自費的就經常是處於一個不獲終的狀態所以說很多的國軍弟兄一直講說到年底就叫別人花點數可是他想要買的東西永遠都在進貨當中所以說我希望這一點也可以稍微去做一個改進既然你們都已經上架到這個系統上面了"},{"start":11331.849,"end":11344.884,"text":"就要盡量讓大家能夠購買得到啊否則大家想買的東西每一次都在不管是自費或者是用點數扣的都在補貨當中永遠都買不到那這樣子你們做的這個商店還有什麼意義嗎來我們再繼續往下看這個也是一樣"},{"start":11349.322,"end":11357.444,"text":"同樣類型不完全相同不是同一雙鞋我告訴你同一樣類型的靴子有的軍種賣2000塊有的軍種賣2500塊這個特別去宣傳的賣2500塊有的人賣2400塊所以我才說我從毛巾跟你講是因為它比較好比較但是從毛巾衣服到靴子都比較高價位的靴子都是同樣的狀況再給您看一些陳情"},{"start":11377.89,"end":11395.67,"text":"迷彩技工服1800塊材質爛到爆被火花噴到直接就融穿了用這種材質當技工服嗎他後面在罵的我就不講了很多東西限量購買要讓工廠好抓量爆表好看因為點數要消耗完"},{"start":11396.57,"end":11399.773,"text":"然後呢還有什麼這個中華民國的公發點數納稅錢我們都有繳稅1500塊的東西如果變成3000這樣錢沒有被拐走嗎這些都是大家講你看喔2500塊的靴子商城限定講得多好穿結果每一個穿上去的都說很難穿"},{"start":11419.25,"end":11443.084,"text":"所以我想要幫大家是爭取這個福利就是說呢第一個既然我們有這個點數讓他們每年可以去使用這個也是納稅錢那我們國軍弟兄他能夠去花的那他的購買的東西的品質我覺得一定要有然後呢價格上面生活上的用品就是要用生活上的價格"},{"start":11444.212,"end":11457.033,"text":"我們一般出去外面買毛巾大概多少錢在商店買毛巾多少錢大概大家都知道你是30塊到50塊差不多就是那個價格一條那結果如果我們在國軍購物站裡面你要賣到100多塊錢"},{"start":11459.246,"end":11473.697,"text":"那他們就說好啊那我就去外面買你聽起來很合理對不對可是不對啊他有點數要花完啊而且每年到年末的時候大家就會開始講說你要使用的點數把它花完啊那最後他就買毛巾來湊數"},{"start":11475.578,"end":11488.322,"text":"那這個湊的這個數量它的價格又不合理那變成是所有我們基層的軍人都知道這件事情但我們的長官不清楚所以在這裡我要再一次的幫我們的基層軍官跟我們部長請命這個商城的問題你不要看它小但它引起的基層軍官的民怨非常的大而且這不是我第一次看到了"},{"start":11498.766,"end":11519.724,"text":"是因為一直遲遲都沒有改善所以我今天在業務報告的時候提出來我希望部長可以做一個完全全面的改革那因為時間的關係我沒有辦法一個一個一項一項的品項跟你說以及幫每一位的不同軍種的軍官他們跟你反映但是呢希望我們事後我們後續再針對各個應該要"},{"start":11524.689,"end":11527.515,"text":"檢討的品項我們做一個全面的檢討讓這個公發的點數讓這個商城讓他的商品都能夠符合我們的國軍需求部長可以嗎"},{"start":11535.942,"end":11556.614,"text":"我想委員的一個指教我會下去進行研討因為相關的這些品項的部分這麼的眾多那其實也沒有到很多了各軍種各軍種跟各官兵的這個多元的選擇性這個部分然後還有您剛提到的舒適性的等等我想我們都會來測驗好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11562.597,"end":11568.599,"text":"謝謝部長就剛剛徐委員提到的這個部分服裝供售站其實他已經是保障廠商66億餘元這麼高的一個收入因為我們所有點數都會用到而且這個等於對一家公司挹注非常多所以請部長也可以提供那個因為現在已經標出去了他的合約內容也提供給委員會好不好因為很多"},{"start":11591.708,"end":11599.353,"text":"很多國軍官兵也在反應他們要的根本買不到一言再言可是到最後必須要把點數用掉的時候只好買很多其他的東西因為他網上其他的其他品牌或者很多非常多樣化的一個產品都在上面都可以買到他們要的買不到那只好去買這些那會變成變相圖利這些廠商所以我們也請國防部相關單位還有部長可以重視這個問題"},{"start":11622.229,"end":11624.653,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11645.75,"end":11660.023,"text":"部長你好最近一直有一件事情我一直想要看內容都看不到就是一個是總統講的賴總統講的說台灣之盾是不是"},{"start":11663.975,"end":11681.697,"text":"另外一個就是特別預算我們要編有人講一兆現在又聽到是一兆三這個等於在國防預算Regular的正常預算裡面另外要編特別預算請問到底是一兆還是一兆三"},{"start":11683.617,"end":11694.965,"text":"跟委員報告 現在就是說關於特別預算的規模還在行政院審議當中所以我們等行政院審議確定以後但你有提出來 你提出來是多少"},{"start":11696.328,"end":11722.561,"text":"我想因為還沒有審議完畢所以我想我們這邊因為這個預算的籌編是行政院的權責所以我想是以行政院的決定最後的決定不是 可是你總是有個版本給行政院不然行政院怎麼審呢你總是有個版本不然這個因為原來講的是一兆後來說一兆三這個一兆三是不是太多了或者你不便明講那我就說比一兆三少這樣可以吧"},{"start":11723.979,"end":11727.681,"text":"我想還是要以行政院的審議的結果所以問不出答案就對了這裡面總是要講一下讓我們知道一下一兆多是不是都買美國武器是不是我想這怎麼是機密呢要面對全國老百姓納稅的錢"},{"start":11746.763,"end":11757.586,"text":"我想有軍購也有我們國內的自己的委制然後也有進行商購所以通通都是買武器就這個意思 對吧特別條例嘛就類似戰機的特別條例2500億然後現在有一個特別條例一兆或者一兆三一兆到一兆三之間"},{"start":11770.296,"end":11777.14,"text":"我想相關的這些相關的這些編列的內容我想等行政院核定之後我們再對外來說明剛剛我們林委員提到海空號海空號不在裡面吧沒有 海空號海空號是extra的不在除了besides海空號以外我們還要編一照一照就是台灣之盾這兩個是不是一樣的東西"},{"start":11795.379,"end":11797.962,"text":"這兩個是不是一樣的東西就是為了要建構台灣之盾所以編了一照我都聽你講話了你總是要回答一下嘛是跟委員報告我想對你多好啊我們現在要快速提升的是不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性"},{"start":11813.68,"end":11825.564,"text":"防空系統不是只有針對台灣之盾不是只有針對台灣之盾但是台灣之盾在其中之裡面會是其中的一個重要的主要是防空系統是不是我們的整個防空會包括反彈反擊跟反無人機還有整合啊整合系統啊像巴西斯坦可以贏印度那就是一個整合系統的問題啊"},{"start":11842.182,"end":11856.344,"text":"所以我們會以這個強調這個高機動性跟高存活率的平台作為一個優先的考量所以主要是防空系統嘛需要維持一定的空優嘛 是不是我不知道我們現在有沒有空優啦"},{"start":11857.84,"end":11872.932,"text":"我想我們現在的這個特別預算的這個內容因為還沒有經過核定我想但是我剛已經講了我們是以提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛人心沒有會有包含這個你來這裡就要盡量講講到不能講為止不能夠說我盡量不講就急一下急一下講一點那第二個小問題就是問你是不是全數舉債總可以講白"},{"start":11887.774,"end":11892.391,"text":"這個部分是主計局來說明一下主計局啊 長官啊"},{"start":11893.342,"end":11898.047,"text":"人家外面罵得要死啊 現在我們去哪裡人家就說立委要怎麼監督的國防部的組織局 欸 那個顧部長啊你左邊這一位啊 你要好好的去監督一下對不對 椅子買五萬塊一張 辦公桌兩百多萬一張唉 今天我們沒得死啊 沒得吵頭啊連我們立委出去都被罵啊 所以我們都沒有好好監督啊"},{"start":11919.428,"end":11925.897,"text":"對不對我們的主席多優秀 把你抓出來要沒有抓出來就是按照你們原來講的啊能騙就騙 能框就框啊都這樣 對不對來講一下是不是都舉菜回答我是的 包委員是的是的各位"},{"start":11935.311,"end":11958.439,"text":"都百分之百舉債一兆一債是什麼概念啊我們一年中央政府總預算三兆喔三分之一的預算就舉債一兆除以兩千三百萬一個人要付多少錢你可以想一個人這個不是一年的特別預算那幾年七年七年一兆那就是七年平均一年就是也是一千多億啊"},{"start":11961.937,"end":11966.298,"text":"1400億 1500億左右啊好 第二個問題啊 我很快把它講完喔我今天接到好多電話就在抗議啊內政部其實抗議你啊說這個不當兵的那個原來BMI啊去兩年前才修訂了 到3535以上不用當兵現在把它提到45"},{"start":11990.77,"end":12006.722,"text":"那你對他又講說替代役了這個部長 你講替代役那你要講一下吧你現在提高這麼多讓很多可以來的小胖子或者是比較體型比較圓潤的通宵當兵變這個樣子"},{"start":12010.528,"end":12036.508,"text":"我是軍醫局局長跟委員報告因為我們常備役的體位沒有改變維持原來的體位那我們增加的是替代役那替代役從BMI講清楚所以35到45都是替代役是不是是替代役35到45都是替代役那這樣可以增加多少人這個可能要問內政部醫政署"},{"start":12037.932,"end":12053.5,"text":"都是替代役 替代役時間多久替代役時間也是一年來 我唸一段我就結束了這是選民給我的他的小孩子就是BMI45怎麼減都減不了就BMI45"},{"start":12055.051,"end":12078.499,"text":"然後他特別提到了現在大於37.5只是聽好兩位長官大於37.5健保補助開縮胃手術就是醫學上講的病態性的一個肥胖那你現在37.5就健保補助你開縮胃的手術就很清楚"},{"start":12079.554,"end":12098.569,"text":"以健康的角度來講37.5以上都不是太健康如果以肥胖來講的話那結果你要讓他去當兵萬一出了人命怎麼樣呢這個給我的是什麼就是他的小孩子就44他現在很憂心啊小孩子去當兵以後會不會怎麼樣啊會不會鬧出人命啊"},{"start":12100.151,"end":12120.707,"text":"跟委員報告這個是內政部議政司現在初步的建議但是我們現在還在開會還沒定案只是說有這個方向有這個方向那還要經過各個委員會還有各個學會還有醫院還有專家還有內政部議政司最後一句話什麼時候可以確定"},{"start":12122.737,"end":12142.306,"text":"我們大概在下個月大概就會定版下個月就會開始進入公告階段好好的把我剛剛那一段你把它看一下有些家長真的很憂心37.5是衛護部裡面健保可以補助的所謂的所謂的數數37.5是 謝委員的提醒好 謝謝"},{"start":12149.212,"end":12152.556,"text":"接下來請林德甫委員上台質詢是不是請顧部長"},{"start":12172.754,"end":12200.372,"text":"是 林委員好部長你好部長 我請教因為近日屢屢傳出國軍弟兄意外的事件不論是陳功嶺打靶意外或是軍官墮樓 墜樓請問國防部根據調查結果國軍的智商原因是因為工作壓力佔大多數還是感情因素佔大多數我是不是請站舉先"},{"start":12202.669,"end":12221.508,"text":"委員好 我是政戰局長跟你們報告今年對於自我傷害發生的原因比較多是情感跟家庭的一些因素那麼我們對於官兵的心理照護其實是非常重視所以包含了每一件事情發生之後"},{"start":12222.088,"end":12224.431,"text":"我們對於他的個人部隊適應狀況還有家庭的情況個人的財務情感我們都會務實的去檢討避免下一個案子再發生那個部長因為"},{"start":12236.158,"end":12260.195,"text":"國安部要做好官兵心理輔導那請問國軍的心理健康照護方案提供每個人每年六次的民間免費心理諮商的服務是否有相關統計可以說明今年的一到八月國軍有多少人使用那國軍心理健康的這些照顧的方案"},{"start":12261.81,"end":12283.199,"text":"我們是今年2月13號才啟用到9月30號為止是4,375人次我想我們這些他可以進行這樣子的一個獲得這樣的補助來協助解決官兵的心理困擾我覺得有一定的程度的注意我是希望要落實"},{"start":12284.619,"end":12302.932,"text":"是 我想官兵應該是要維護官兵的心理健康我們就會盡量來提供這些多元的輔導部長 我再請教 彈藥庫是零幣設施的民眾不希望住家附近有彈藥庫可是沒有彈藥庫則無法發揮"},{"start":12305.573,"end":12315.913,"text":"國防的戰力來保家衛國那過去2023年3月邱國正前部長在綠好院被刑的時候表示"},{"start":12317.281,"end":12340.529,"text":"台美正在研議是否將原本放在日本韓國菲律賓的儲備的彈藥改存放到台灣那時間拉回到現在媒體報導顧部長說強化國土防衛任性部分第一是相當重要的彈藥庫整建那我請問顧部長彈藥庫整建是否"},{"start":12345.77,"end":12363.662,"text":"這個跟存放美國這個儲備彈藥有關我想還是我們自有的彈藥的存量這個存量必須要充足而且我們也買了很多新式的武器裝備所以需要有足夠的這些庫儲的設施這樣喔 這個"},{"start":12367.133,"end":12378.983,"text":"本席也跟顧部長確認彈藥庫整建的意思是在既有的彈藥庫設施進行改善還是會在新的地方來設立全新的彈藥庫"},{"start":12380.599,"end":12404.676,"text":"我們在這一次的特別預算如果您問的是這個這兩年期的特別預算都是屬於整建的部分至於新建的部分它其實比較長沒有放在這一次兩年期的特別預算這是屬於另外的本席要提醒 要是新設代號庫本席希望國防部做好跟附近社區住戶的民意多做溝通"},{"start":12405.952,"end":12430.877,"text":"我們都新建的部分都是一定要按這個法定的程序來進行來 在近日有媒體提問說美國總統川普是否會為了以習近平達成協議而犧牲美國對台灣的支持川普總統則沒有正面上的回覆提問那今年六月民主基金會民調指出67%的民眾"},{"start":12434.831,"end":12461.882,"text":"認為美國是將台灣作為與中國對抗的籌碼而且66%的民眾認為美國總統川普會為了美國的利益來出賣台灣有三分之二的人那美國是否是可靠的盟友民眾對美國是擔憂的本期希望國防部不要忽視要認真的來看待部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":12464.086,"end":12472.274,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得在安全這個議題上面維持整個印太區域的和平穩定是美國的核心利益美國"},{"start":12474.499,"end":12496.297,"text":"總統川普也一直在說明就是他絕不容許這個戰爭的發生而且我看他的講話也提到最近是講說美國軍力強大所以我想他還是以實力作為一個嚇阻的基礎而且在印太有任何的戰事發生也就是說現狀被破壞就是現狀沒辦法維持的話對美國來講是"},{"start":12500.06,"end":12514.131,"text":"一個核心利益的一個喪失所以我想美國一定在安全的議題上面是不可能讓步的我希望如此啦據瞭解 空軍戰機飛行員的訓練由三階段三種機改為三階段兩種機兩機種"},{"start":12517.654,"end":12529.829,"text":"那未來T-34C這個初級的教練機要採延售的方案還是要向外採購初級的教練機國防部何時能夠定案"},{"start":12530.899,"end":12553.696,"text":"所以報告委員依據我們現在T-34型機初級教練機使用的狀況他大概在121年到127年會有接受的這個狀況那我們現在也尋商也不排除做自製研發的這個方式甚至有做租賃的方式我們在各方面都有做一些目前的一些準備跟研究"},{"start":12554.096,"end":12580.616,"text":"因為審計部的報告裡面指出空軍這個永英高校機這個訓練機發動機受損頻繁三年內發生了148次的故障影響妥善率那當初就是因為F5戰機老舊汰換改成永英的戰機來替換那本期是希望國防部"},{"start":12581.757,"end":12587.925,"text":"妥善解決永英教練機頻繁故障的問題"},{"start":12589.145,"end":12610.391,"text":"這跟委員簡單的報告這個已經澄清了因為當時在台東飛的時候我們機場有非常多的設施那也包含跑道的整修以及F16準備接機的一些工程設施所以造成了飛機發動機吸入外物那這個也都澄清那在後來的這個時間已經完全的都改善了這樣喔 好 謝謝謝謝接下來請陳"},{"start":12618.567,"end":12631.056,"text":"林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請接下來接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":12636.53,"end":12651.873,"text":"好 謝謝主席請部長還有海軍司令部參謀長以及我們中科院院長請顧部長 海軍參謀長還有中科院院長就備巡台 謝謝是 王委員好好 部長好"},{"start":12654.458,"end":12666.053,"text":"部長我們現在除了發展無人機之外我們也發展無人艇那麼而且呢按照我們現在包含我們軍方的需求超過1300艘的無人艇而且"},{"start":12669.938,"end":12687.472,"text":"又為了因應2027年的可能就是有可能的中共犯台的一個準備所以除了軍方之外而且我們海巡現在也說有無人艇的一個需求"},{"start":12688.232,"end":12712.688,"text":"所以這個需求量是非常非常大的那我在這邊直接想請教因為呢除了我們現在的這個廠商我們無人艇現在未來就是我們的需求量這麼大但是呢我們的廠商一直鎖定在台船隆德還有中信其實非常的有限那這個呢在透過經濟部呢台灣的這個遊艇業者因為台灣是遊艇王國"},{"start":12718.352,"end":12735.361,"text":"那所以呢在遊艇業者呢也希望能夠就是說一起能夠讓除了這個旅遊娛樂性的那麼他們也可以來加入這樣的一個生產那麼我所看到的像中科院為什麼請院長來中科院也認為"},{"start":12739.003,"end":12749.17,"text":"因為我們未來的需求事實上是可以讓這樣的遊艇業者來參與事實上我知道目前已經有遊艇業者已經開發出無人艇了而且是軍用的無人艇所以我想請問部長還有我們的海軍參謀長"},{"start":12762.079,"end":12774.171,"text":"未來我們在發展無人艇的部分可不可以讓我們再增加我們的一個供應量把台灣這樣的一個產業讓它的產業鏈能夠擴大然後讓遊艇業也能夠來參與我們不管是軍方或者海巡的相關的無人艇的生產"},{"start":12785.976,"end":12805.926,"text":"我想政策面上面來看的話我們落實這個在地生產這個是我們的政策因為這個才能夠具有一定的防衛韌性那無人機也好無人艇也好確實如委員所講他都現在來看都有不具有一定的產業規模那麼現在要轉入到這個"},{"start":12807.426,"end":12836.3,"text":"軍用也好或者軍用商規也好或者是相關的這些我們有一定的這個對外甚至能夠輸出的這個能量來講我們國軍作為一個最大的需求者那我們確實是要來落實這樣的一個在地研發生產的能量所以在地研發因為我剛剛講說其實我們目前所你們所鎖定的事實上是非常有限所以以台灣的遊艇業者來講話事實上也可以納入對不對"},{"start":12837.854,"end":12851.322,"text":"因為我們日後一定會採取一個公開招標的一個程序然後進行申選所以他們假設本來是坐遊艇那要轉入的話那或許在技術面上面他可能需要找到一些廠商來"},{"start":12852.542,"end":12861.905,"text":"其他的這些有這樣的技術來合作那當然沒有錯他一定要符合相關的規定這沒有錯他如果能夠有一個技術授權或合作所以我是希望說這個是一個就是一個在地生產然後呢而且我們明明放在一個台灣一個遊艇王國另外那個部長請問一下川普最近說2027台海之間不會發生戰爭您同意他的說法嗎"},{"start":12882.02,"end":12898.805,"text":"我想川普總統我看到他的講話還是說提到他說美國的軍力壯大所以我看到的是這樣子所以我認為美國的政策在安全議題上面一直是以實力作為基礎的我們現在不是談美國政策我們現在並不談美國政策而是談他說2027台海沒有發生戰爭的這個問題"},{"start":12909.129,"end":12925.163,"text":"你們的評估是我們都是評估它相關的預警增後不管是早期的還是更廣泛的一個密駐它的一個動向做長期的預期所以你不完全接受它的預期"},{"start":12926.263,"end":12944.097,"text":"我們不會以這麼簡單的一個講法來做一個結論我們都是以 我們都會川普的說法有他個人的樂觀我們都會面對中國的這個軍事威脅不斷的提升然後研判各種的徵喉來掌握這個全盤的狀況好 那另外我請教就是現在我們關注的就立刻就是很快的會有川習會"},{"start":12951.343,"end":12954.486,"text":"那麼川普在川習會之前突然提出來一個2027他認為沒有台海沒有發生戰爭的危險或可能性那我其實覺得這個是他即便川習會的他的一個技術上的說法也說不一定"},{"start":12968.257,"end":12971.58,"text":"另外現在因為中美貿易大戰而中國現在對全世界祭出了西土戰反正互相卡脖子而我們影響我們的問題就是我們F16V的戰機已經嚴重的延宕到目前為止我們訂製66架也只有兩架出廠在美國出廠它根本還沒有交機"},{"start":12996.698,"end":13018.55,"text":"那麼接下來超過60架要想要在2027年之前交機其實是看起來就已經非常高難度所以部長根據國際的情勢現在竟然中國發起了稀土戰管制稀土的出口"},{"start":13019.19,"end":13026.565,"text":"那麼會不會讓整個F16V的戰機的叫機更為嚴當 你們的評估是什麼"},{"start":13027.947,"end":13053.635,"text":"包委員 這個之前也回過委員的這個提問那目前的主要的原因是在當時COVID-19之後的人力以及供應鏈上的問題那目前是沒有提到美方也沒有提到有這個稀土的問題我們這樣評估的話它的主要是在人力上目前已經逐漸改善 那以上那你們認為說明年全數交機可能嗎難度很高"},{"start":13056.498,"end":13064.726,"text":"所以幾乎確定又要跳票會往後延 因為前面的這個會延多久 你們現在所聽到的應該會延多久呢"},{"start":13065.285,"end":13089.936,"text":"我們現在目前還在評估當中因為他的目前之前缺工的狀況也逐步在改善我們每個月都有在開這個會議所以為什麼要問呢就是因為我們基本上還是以2027認為是在台海之間比較危險的嘛沒有錯嘛對不對可是如果到明年交機要跳票然後當然我們要有預估一個時程等到爆發戰爭之後你再來有用嗎"},{"start":13091.678,"end":13101.345,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該要有比較具體的具體的你延宕要延宕到什麼時候是不是我們可以承受的一個"},{"start":13103.251,"end":13125.164,"text":"範圍我覺得這一點事實上是很重要的否則到現在66家然後一家的影子都沒有有啦兩家還在美國然後剩下的影子都沒有我覺得這個是很難對台灣的這個所有的納稅人還有所有就是關心台海之間會不會發生危機的人的交代好不好好謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":13154.646,"end":13157.054,"text":"麻煩召委邀請國防部部長請顧部長"},{"start":13164.688,"end":13192.046,"text":"市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有郵出給這個中共的情報人員"},{"start":13192.947,"end":13216.064,"text":"那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸"},{"start":13217.927,"end":13242.529,"text":"就國防部的掌握這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定草原交犯標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊"},{"start":13244.651,"end":13261.768,"text":"所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度"},{"start":13262.208,"end":13280.203,"text":"沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦"},{"start":13281.249,"end":13308.571,"text":"那所以說這個它有沒有通過查核跟它可不可以接觸這個密等因為它不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏 機密即機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好"},{"start":13310.683,"end":13323.978,"text":"我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的"},{"start":13325.051,"end":13353.07,"text":"如果說相關的供點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位"},{"start":13355.811,"end":13383.239,"text":"這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好 我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解"},{"start":13383.959,"end":13400.356,"text":"那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意"},{"start":13404.52,"end":13419.391,"text":"避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞"},{"start":13420.902,"end":13446.496,"text":"好謝謝那一樣我上次在跟國安局諮詢的時候有特別提到他們有反情報的指引在他們的這個DCSA有反情報的接觸指南那這個指南他原則上是不是只給情報單位包含他各個政府部門那都可以知道說有一些相關的指引那他們也會知道說要去向誰來去報告說有遇到異常接觸的話"},{"start":13448.392,"end":13461.906,"text":"過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室可以來統籌包含把一些反情報的這些做法跟指引來去跟它處內的員工來說明"},{"start":13463.908,"end":13478.458,"text":"那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片"},{"start":13479.258,"end":13502.808,"text":"那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建置起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式"},{"start":13503.508,"end":13517.714,"text":"就是說我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫"},{"start":13518.954,"end":13543.027,"text":"可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做"},{"start":13543.707,"end":13572.143,"text":"那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":13572.751,"end":13583.265,"text":"我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T棟來編列的也包括其他的部分"},{"start":13585.351,"end":13604.475,"text":"著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以"},{"start":13605.235,"end":13619.906,"text":"現有我們已經有很多的sensor那也有很多的shooter那麼未來也會來增購這個sensor也好或shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高"},{"start":13621.006,"end":13637.732,"text":"這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子"},{"start":13638.292,"end":13664.074,"text":"所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那T棟未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":13666.783,"end":13684.56,"text":"應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣"},{"start":13685.502,"end":13702.852,"text":"因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機"},{"start":13705.453,"end":13727.291,"text":"重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到梯動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是以更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想"},{"start":13728.621,"end":13758.301,"text":"我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行貴的計劃但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計劃它可以是"},{"start":13759.161,"end":13778.532,"text":"有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷"},{"start":13779.472,"end":13793.281,"text":"怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向"},{"start":13795.137,"end":13812.015,"text":"那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭它的主網行動它其實是善用特種作戰方式特種部隊所以它"},{"start":13812.635,"end":13827,"text":"它並不是在他們的從境內到他們的境外的供給而是直接在境外裡面先預先直輔那他們的安全人員或者是說他們的特務就先到那邊去來去做一個完整的規劃"},{"start":13828.24,"end":13847.382,"text":"那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種"},{"start":13848.763,"end":13863.825,"text":"用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":13865.053,"end":13888.168,"text":"我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜 就人"},{"start":13889.228,"end":13914.702,"text":"還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些"},{"start":13916.062,"end":13923.485,"text":"這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 謝謝委員指教謝謝接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我們請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":13946.325,"end":13947.626,"text":"要先喝口水嗎部長好 這個美國參議院的外委會今天通過四項挺台的法案其中包含了簡化冗長對台軍售程序的豪租法案讓台灣顯有跟北約盟友同等的待遇"},{"start":13968.506,"end":13986.142,"text":"現在就是說未來我們在軍售的流程會比較縮短我們可以跟像北大西洋公園組織日本 歐洲 韓國 以色列等北約Plus成員享有同等的軍售待遇 對不對相關的法案裡面是有這樣子的一個要求"},{"start":13994.161,"end":14004.447,"text":"那請教一下部長台灣享有跟北約盟友有同等的待遇那除了縮短這個軍售的這個程序跟時間之外他的政治上的意涵是什麼"},{"start":14006.71,"end":14029.151,"text":"我想我們雖然沒有像北約這樣子的一個組織跟美國但是這個彰顯美國對於台海和平穩定的重視所以讓我們享有跟北約盟友一樣同等的待遇顯示他們對於印太整個區域"},{"start":14030.432,"end":14045.389,"text":"維持現狀的一個是他們的一個高度認為是他美國的核心利益的一個展現好 那再請教一下部長那目前有哪些我們的軍售項目可以因為這個豪租法案而受惠的"},{"start":14049.785,"end":14072.162,"text":"呃...有嗎?抱怨委員 我是站櫃市市長跟您報告一下豪宿法案目前它是規劃把智慧國會它的那個效期中30天壓縮到15天但就軍售項目來講如果是屬於傳統的大型軍售的話它主要的問題還是在進入預約階段跟產商產製所以這個影響不會太大可是如果就新創產業比如說"},{"start":14075.204,"end":14094.162,"text":"像最近出現的人工智慧武器等等這些東西它的產值其實比較短或是我們之前買的那個Altius 600這種由新創產業他們做的這種產品這個壓縮或許就可以帶來一部分時間上面的交易那就是跟這個新創的這個軍工產業有相關就對了"},{"start":14096.852,"end":14125.194,"text":"好 那我再請教一下部長今年六月美國戰爭部長赫格賽斯他有提到說準備在印太地區建立小型無人機的系統標準確認關鍵零組件的生產來源然後今年八月呢這個八月底參議院的軍事委員會主席維克爾他也說這個美國跟台灣共同生產武器未來將會實現所以台灣的角色從單純的買方轉為美國國防工業上的重要節點那請教一下部長"},{"start":14127.597,"end":14136.628,"text":"這個飛鴻的供應鏈包含他們的戰爭部長跟軍委會的主席所講的主要是以台美共同合作研發無人機嗎"},{"start":14139.301,"end":14157.558,"text":"我想台美的共同的一個合作一向緊密當然無人機是一個其中的一個重點因為美國也要擺脫這個紅色的滲透的可能性也就是說如果無人機以中國現在的這麼"},{"start":14159.64,"end":14184.514,"text":"高比例的一個市場的佔有率它這些相關的這些通訊的系統都藏有這個資安跟個資洩漏的疑慮所以當然也都需要來結合這個理念價值相近的國家來共同打造一個飛鴻供應鏈這當然是其中的一個重要的項目那台灣的角色啦台灣角色當然那主要是以無人機為主嗎還是有包含其他的"},{"start":14187.455,"end":14200.41,"text":"沒有警訊與無人機其他的部分我想我們可能不宜公開來做說明那剛剛有提到這個新創我們國防部也有一個國防創新小組DIO"},{"start":14202.165,"end":14227.724,"text":"然後跟美國的一個國防創新單位DIU目前有建立了聯繫的管道嗎因為根據聯邦參議院通過的國防授權法案也要求美國的國防部的國防創新單位DIU跟台灣的DIO的對應窗口合作請問一下 雙方有建立聯繫的管道了嗎有充分的做資訊的交換了嗎"},{"start":14230.836,"end":14254.786,"text":"有 我們跟美國的DIU已經建立了一個交流的機制我們定期會藉由視訊或實體的會議來進行交流那時間大概有多久了就是雙方建立管道的時間大概有多久了去年的二月開始從去年二月開始那我們這個DIU是哪時候成立的"},{"start":14256.328,"end":14262.242,"text":"就我們也是同時間嘛二月所以從去年二月到現在那時間滿長的喔"},{"start":14264.886,"end":14291.686,"text":"對 所以我們的已經有在不斷的跟美國的DIU建立這些有關要如何快速的建構這些在市場上這些已經既有的這些商品能夠快速的引進所以我們會有這些原型開發我們會有小批量採購這些都是在陸續的應用這種方式來快速的進行現貨的採購"},{"start":14293.487,"end":14320.349,"text":"就小批量採購然後進行驗證測試然後如果可以的話我們就可以快速的來進行籌購這些模式可能要比普通的這個建案的程序要都是以軍規商用為主的嗎主要還是以市場上成熟的這些然後可以符合我們防衛作戰需求的好 不好意思主席我再問最後一項這個"},{"start":14323.613,"end":14340.186,"text":"無人機很重要但是監察院也講說無人機的訓練中心規劃的人數恐怕不足明年接裝軍用商規的無人機的操控手訓練量有不足請問一下這個有改善了嗎"},{"start":14341.192,"end":14361.774,"text":"有 我們要變裝要做簡單說明就好像委員簡單報告就是我們任何軍售或是商售的無人機它整個都是包含到我們的包含到幫我們訓練我們依採購數量的非超手無人機主要就是培育資資還有進階的訓練這方面其實是已經我說這個人數夠不夠"},{"start":14364.878,"end":14393.361,"text":"何時可以補足就隨著我們膠裝的數量會幫我們做完訓練所以這方面是沒有問題的目前是夠的嗎 是我看監察院講說不夠那個已經有向監察院呈付後面我們也在整個購案裡面都有廠商來包含訓練的這個部分是 好 部長我10月8號有講說這一個是不是有這個台智齡組件用於這個俄羅斯的武器你說要找這個經濟部就我昨天問經濟部經濟部說你們根本沒有找他兩個禮拜了"},{"start":14394.802,"end":14408.293,"text":"跟委員報告我想因為這個部分整個的這種零件的這種供應涉及到相當複雜的這個部分就是說你去調查需要時間但是你們連絡都沒有聯絡這就不應該了是是是好不好那多久時間可以調查出來"},{"start":14414.635,"end":14442.281,"text":"我沒有把握這個是不是有辦法調查的出來有啦怎麼沒有辦法這你跟經濟部經濟部說來找你們啦你不找他們來找你們一個月好不好這攸關台灣的形象我想我們再進一步了解至少要聯絡好嗎好我們去跟經濟部聯絡好謝謝接下來請林倩琪委員林倩琪 林倩琪委員不在請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":14448.794,"end":14450.462,"text":"謝謝主席 安全發言 邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":14461.463,"end":14487.82,"text":"這幾天傳出了國防部要將分為七年來編列預兆元的軍購特別預算說這個預算大概會高達1.3兆那包括了要向美方購買所謂的防空系統偵測小型無人機火箭跟飛彈還有增加台灣戰時生產與儲存的這個彈藥的能力都有被媒體來提起"},{"start":14489.241,"end":14510.252,"text":"那這個部長這可能如果是陳真的話他可能是史上最高的軍購特別預算那過去不管藍綠來執政都沒有提過這麼高的軍購特別預算所以這個數字我們看是超出了國防部四個特別預算的一個總額"},{"start":14511.812,"end":14540.246,"text":"所以本席在這邊準身請教部長這一筆預算假設如果是真的是1.3兆那麼到底現在媒體是說1.3兆那請教部長到底是會再增加還是會減少還是就這個數字到底是不是真的請說明條例的部分在由行政院進行審查我們確定全案的規劃之後我們會適當時機再對外說明那所以這個是真的"},{"start":14541.486,"end":14556.247,"text":"現在沒有辦法做這樣的一個確定所以條例是在進行當中條例在從行政院審議中就審議中了 已經審議中了好 那麼媒體更有報導說美方不斷的可能會不斷的要追加項目跟數量"},{"start":14557.659,"end":14570.694,"text":"那請問是如此嗎因為你現在已經在行政院審議中那媒體這麼報到底是會增加還是沒有增加還是這個數字是如何呢"},{"start":14571.38,"end":14596.777,"text":"我想我們所有的這些預算包括特別預算都是根據我們防衛作戰的需求來進行編列的那我們針對敵情威脅抖聲我們認為要快速提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性所以我們規劃這個提出特別預算並不是說我們沒有我想我們還是以這個符合我們的防衛作戰需求為前提"},{"start":14597.482,"end":14618.783,"text":"換句話說您針對鋼安本席據報導所說的你們的這個不管是條例或者是預算的依據都是陳如鋼愛部長你所說的防衛作戰的需求去執行制對 我們都會有一個我們的防衛計畫然後我們都會有我們的一個"},{"start":14622.445,"end":14634.773,"text":"這些防禦需求的一個需要的這些武器裝備也好或者是相關的這些系統也好有所你的依據那你的目標成效呢"},{"start":14636.618,"end":14660.705,"text":"目標的成效當然就是我們希望能夠因應這個中國不但對我們的這個加大對我們的台灣的這個武力威脅的這個力度我們能夠在最短時間內完成一個完備的作戰準備完備作戰準備那所以這一筆預算如果照媒體報呢是這個史上最高的預算所以本席也要請教規模很大"},{"start":14661.792,"end":14676.332,"text":"那必要性無法接受完整的一個監督交付延遲的這個問題看不到他解決的方案所以讓人會憂心是不是會任由美方的欲求"},{"start":14679.076,"end":14704.741,"text":"我想我們台美雙方對於防衛作戰的需求我們都會不斷地來進行研討那特別預算的部分也不是只有對美的軍購我們也會有委制我們國內的委制來創造我們這個一定的經濟效應然後我們也會有商購所以我想這個部分我們會用多元的管道來籌獲我們防衛作戰的一個"},{"start":14706.741,"end":14723.536,"text":"多元的管道來籌劃跟規劃跟執行但是據報導說美國前總統彭斯先生他說了美國至今仍有200億美元對台的軍售是延遲的是嗎"},{"start":14727.715,"end":14750.593,"text":"我想數字已經往下縮減了那現在最主要跟委員報告當然就是剛剛有些已經有委員槌尋的就是有關F16B那還有一些比如像AGM154因為這是在2019年的時候所編列的特別預算2472億元所以請教現在交的進度如何"},{"start":14752.762,"end":14763.509,"text":"現在我們希望明年就能夠得到交機所以到目前為止有沒有交一家過來目前為止有沒有交我想相關的組裝都"},{"start":14766.107,"end":14771.893,"text":"好不好 委員 目前都還沒有交過來那為什麼還沒交呢 研製啊所以剛剛本席特別問部長您說是 那原因是什麼呢因為我們給錢了 但是交不出來那我們的機制呢 應對機制是什麼樣呢在113年之後 他沒有交機的部分我們也都延遲付款這個部分我們有保障我們的權益 跟委員報告"},{"start":14787.73,"end":14808.521,"text":"來 部長 延遲戶款 這不是我們的目的我們要的 既然我們有軍購我們希望 我們也都願意支持國防但是你交不出來啊那你這個不是只有這個交不出來的問題啊因為你接下來 你研製了之後呢你還有什麼 防衛佈局 訓練期程戰力策略 你都會"},{"start":14809.702,"end":14833.053,"text":"都會延後啊 都會影響啊 部長會不會我想現在美方正在全力趕工當中我們明年應該是可以獲得交集只是說要全數交易完畢可能有相當部長你這麼回答 明年會交集價我想這個還是要透過跟美方這個確認部長你還是沒有答案給本席因為我們這個是已經約定的"},{"start":14836.499,"end":14864.354,"text":"那我們應對只有把錢延後交可是這不是國人希望的啊就像剛剛部長您所說的我們是要戰略戰區安全為主那怎麼辦而且會延後到後面剛剛本席所說的這幾項那我方怎麼應對呢因為我們據聞又要編了一個七年1.3兆那如果還是這樣的應對那我們的戰略安全到底在哪裡請部長說明"},{"start":14865.82,"end":14884.427,"text":"我想我們雙方會有一個定期的管制會議來確認這個交機的這個期程那我們一定會希望美方能夠全力敢攻來加速這個交運部長我想國家的安全支持國防這是"},{"start":14885.707,"end":14909.093,"text":"這個是不變的原則 本期所以我非常的希望也就是說我們既然我們支持國防你們也決定要怎麼做但是當沒有辦法交的時候難免社會大眾會認為我們是不是只有當冤大頭我們是不是只有當美國這個軍火商的一個提款機我想這都不是我們國人希望的"},{"start":14909.713,"end":14934.7,"text":"所以部長您剛才回答本席說你會再跟美方來去討論光光在2019年的這些要怎麼樣能夠交集回來我們當然到目前為止沒辦法聽到你比較正確的一個時程但是我們還是希望我們不要當冤大頭國家的安全是非常的重要的謝謝委員指教"},{"start":14937.505,"end":14946.29,"text":"謝謝接下來請曾振淺委員曾振淺委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":14970.692,"end":14990.708,"text":"是 林委員部長好 首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了是除役的去年除役 那今年7月除役的是RF51偵察型的這個F51"},{"start":14993.851,"end":15015.565,"text":"那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高較機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢所以我們的主合約是中科院那由中科院向漢翔公司次合約商來自製研發的那域化是明年交66架今年域化是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架"},{"start":15017.617,"end":15037.848,"text":"所以我想說已經有延遲有延遲嘛對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些"},{"start":15044.71,"end":15066.401,"text":"包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":15068.376,"end":15074.761,"text":"好 那我看這樣永銀的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永銀高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永銀為什麼會延宕呢還有外購系統的缺件品項"},{"start":15087.33,"end":15115.787,"text":"是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些系統件喔這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙造的爆破系統等等這些"},{"start":15116.938,"end":15131.893,"text":"在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個插催"},{"start":15133.581,"end":15149.458,"text":"那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢祥公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限"},{"start":15151.032,"end":15173.251,"text":"我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些試驗的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就"},{"start":15174.592,"end":15200.212,"text":"一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入"},{"start":15201.3,"end":15204.783,"text":"所以就是說30%是到中科院然後70%是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才"},{"start":15222.276,"end":15236.663,"text":"那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪因為中科院是主合約商結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意所以可不可以解釋一下"},{"start":15250.822,"end":15276.622,"text":"是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":15277.911,"end":15296.983,"text":"就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些罰款"},{"start":15297.803,"end":15301.768,"text":"因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋"},{"start":15313.7,"end":15318.544,"text":"這樣我是覺得這樣的話是不是應該全部要繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算"},{"start":15338.781,"end":15344.75,"text":"即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝"},{"start":15350.359,"end":15375.988,"text":"那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈率應該是"},{"start":15377.228,"end":15385.035,"text":"近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止"},{"start":15402.049,"end":15426.292,"text":"編制員額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整17460人等於三年內整個蒸發掉34個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來100分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成60分"},{"start":15427.173,"end":15453.504,"text":"那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援"},{"start":15457.728,"end":15471.744,"text":"委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證元額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況"},{"start":15472.805,"end":15492.73,"text":"所以我們為了使國防預算能夠做妥適的一個運用那所以我們就是希望能夠核實編列所以今年我們就是更加的來精準的來計算這些的一個數字包括我們的招募的目標還有我們的離退的長數跟我們發薪的長數那就是希望能夠更精準的來估算這個人員維持費的一個部分"},{"start":15494.451,"end":15513.524,"text":"因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數呈現不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緩和看你要怎麼去編那個"},{"start":15514.184,"end":15521.349,"text":"但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以"},{"start":15540.101,"end":15543.943,"text":"請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓整個員額減少我們買那麼多裝備卻把志願役的人力一再一再地砍這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢"},{"start":15560.614,"end":15578.908,"text":"我們實際的我想在營的人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的在營的人數沒有"},{"start":15582.691,"end":15600.445,"text":"像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營的人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備所以這些"},{"start":15601.766,"end":15605.188,"text":"戰備 裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人 沒有軍人這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰"},{"start":15620.872,"end":15643.929,"text":"對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況"},{"start":15645.137,"end":15648.698,"text":"我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那"},{"start":15674.963,"end":15679.747,"text":"部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢"},{"start":15690.311,"end":15704.64,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":15707.242,"end":15719.716,"text":"事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強"},{"start":15722.399,"end":15739.085,"text":"所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加級之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加級的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有一些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構"},{"start":15741.087,"end":15755.659,"text":"將戰鬥部隊的加急把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的恢復我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好"},{"start":15757.139,"end":15779.91,"text":"好 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1202.252,"end":1216.507,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請正式開會請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人以足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1218.393,"end":1239.539,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經紀委員會第6次全體委員會議事錄 時間114年10月22日星期三9時至13時16分 地點紅樓101會議室 初期委員林黛化等14人 列席委員賴世保等26人 列席人員經濟部部長龔明星等 主席楊昭吉委員瓊英 報事項 依宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1240.419,"end":1266.624,"text":"二 邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢經濟部部長龔明欣報告後委員林黛化等31人提出質詢均由經濟部部長龔明欣等即席答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經已發言完畢 詢答結束二 委員牛喜婷及劉建國所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三 書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會 散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1268.666,"end":1289.499,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請農業部部長及財政部官務署首長就非洲豬瘟防檢疫後續防疫精進作為進行報告並被執行 宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場的委員以及列席的首長首先我們介紹邱益穎委員"},{"start":1292.421,"end":1311.946,"text":"接下來我們農業部長陳俊暨陳部長我們動物植物防檢署署長杜署長以及蓄產試驗所黃所長接下來我們獸醫研究所鄧所長以及財政部關務署署長彭署長好 謝謝"},{"start":1316.007,"end":1343.491,"text":"那接下來本日的議程排定非洲豬瘟防檢疫後續防疫精進作為進行報告並備詢因為這一次發生這個事件國人非常的關心也牽扯到千億的這個肉品的產業所以我們希望大家怎麼樣能夠穩定整個國人的一個安心我們也請政府加油"},{"start":1344.031,"end":1346.576,"text":"所以我們現在首先來請農業部長陳俊記請做報告"},{"start":1363.055,"end":1384.333,"text":"主席 各位委員今天農業部奉邀到大約第11屆第4會期經濟委員會報告台中市通報疑似非洲豬瘟案例緊急啟動應變作為案以下請就相關的議案做一些報告書面報告我想都已經給委員了那我就用簡報的方式很快速的做一個說明"},{"start":1385.256,"end":1411.087,"text":"那整個大概大概分為這四部分 請參考那整個案例場是位於台中市的一個無期區那從10月10號開始 該場開始有一些異常的死亡狀況那一直到10月14號 台中市再再度的去訪視然後到了20號就是送檢體到我們的農業部的獸醫所那21號我們收到以後 做進"},{"start":1411.807,"end":1435.631,"text":"立刻做相關的一個檢體的檢查那檢查在當天21號的下午6點06分就發現說整個檢體裡面呈現非洲豬瘟的陽性核酸那整個陽性核酸我們現在初步是利用劇毒的反應去呈一些相關的一個結果那相關的病死豬也有相關的一個症狀那目前已經採行的一些作為大概我們會針對周邊3公里的案場"},{"start":1438.852,"end":1466.43,"text":"做相關連的這些實施移動管制那這是在21號的時候9點的時候我們確認用這樣的方式去處理然後同時該場剩下的這些豬隻195頭我們也在20號當天凌晨就完全做鋪紮然後就地掩埋那對於該牧場周邊的一個清潔及消毒然後該案場周邊的3公里我們列為管制區就執行豬場的移動管制開始進行疫調"},{"start":1467.216,"end":1489.502,"text":"那在初步第一階段的疫調的過程中那我們發現說我們是從疑似案例場的租資在發病前15天然後開始去回溯追蹤曾經進出這個場的車輛去列入我們最終調查的對象那第一個部分就是還有就是3公里內的這些租場進行移動管制跟電話或視訊的調查"},{"start":1491.542,"end":1510.521,"text":"那根據這樣的一個圈定我們發現說這個豬場之前在9月30號曾經從其他的地方運來的一些豬隻所以我們針對從潭子區購來的這個豬來源場這個來源場我們也去做檢查發現沒有異常的死亡現象那第二個部分就是"},{"start":1511.902,"end":1533.823,"text":"從潭子區載運的這個豬隻的這個車輛的車主他本身也有養豬那我們同樣的也針對這個豬場去做檢查那目前也沒有死亡的一個異常的狀況那同時在半徑三公里內有兩場管制場裡面其中一場是停養了但是另外一場目前也沒有死亡的異常的一個狀況"},{"start":1535.148,"end":1546.815,"text":"那當它的關聯廠最接近的關聯廠檢測出沒有什麼特別異常以外那我們開始針對運輸車輛的軌跡進行相關聯廠的一個劃定那該車涉及的就是有經過這個這個租廠的相關的這個車輛總共有33場的一個關聯廠那初步我們在"},{"start":1558.061,"end":1574.463,"text":"在22號開始做疫調的時候先用電話訪視也沒有發現這個化織車整個化織的數量有異常的現象那運輸車的部分關聯廠大概有7場那現在已經列入疫調的一個現況那"},{"start":1577.697,"end":1592.38,"text":"由於非洲豬瘟是台灣第一次發生的那我們從107年開始就是非常非常辛苦的這樣做一個將這個病毒能夠丙除於境外那發生這樣的一個事情"},{"start":1593.021,"end":1613.541,"text":"那我們開始在22號我們召開了移民中心那移民中心裡面大概有幾個作為也在這邊跟委員報告就是台東市的這些病死豬的個別處理的部分就是在台東市處理那其他的相關的這些畫製廠他不得就是不得拒絕其他縣市來做畫製"},{"start":1615.723,"end":1632.383,"text":"那最主要的原因就是說當你這些因為豬隻飼養的過程中都有一些自然病史或管理不當病史的那這些豬隻如果不讓他進到化織廠的話他可能會導致這些豬隻會隨手丟棄那另外一部分廚藝的部分我們已經協調環境部以現有的"},{"start":1635.273,"end":1661.876,"text":"清潔能量來沒有辦法做的時候我們委託清潔業者加強相關的作為那12月20號我們也召開了一面中間的討論會我們每日會追蹤化製廠的藝廠的數量回報那畜牧廠需自主管理那同時我們全面使用廚藝的未往注資那未來會是疫情的狀況做相關的一個延長廚藝關聯的模式那全面啟動整個疫調的掌握關聯"},{"start":1662.717,"end":1686.72,"text":"那同時我們也協調冷凍工會釋出冷凍豬肉穩定市場的一個供應量那在昨天下午 行政院院長其實也聽取了相關的報告那比較重要的指示是農業部進行關聯的溯源務必落實相關的防檢疫措施防止疫情的擴大而且要穩定我們國內在這段禁運禁載的期間"},{"start":1688.221,"end":1714.055,"text":"能夠穩定肉品的供銷以避免影響到民生的豬肉供應的穩定那相關的部位一定用最高規格的方式來處理防患病死豬的一個流向造成民眾的恐慌那其中就學童營養午餐的部分我們會協調相關的這些冷凍工會來協助然後同時我們也會精進港口相關的檢查的一個措施強化綠線通關的一個開箱"},{"start":1716.596,"end":1744.522,"text":"查驗的比例那同時持續加強走私等相關的事宜那特別是提到就是防疫視同作戰我想我們現在最重要的工作就是讓這個疫情的擴散能夠達到降到最低來確保我們的養豬產業那整個的一個落實本身我想我們在10月22號我們在台中的就是"},{"start":1745.262,"end":1765.625,"text":"昨天開始我們在台東的前進應變所由杜文貞市長進駐那進駐的期間最主要的工作就是在做台東市的整個的一個的這個養豬場觀念場的疫調的情形那每天會開召開工作會報那每一天也會對外有正式的記者會對外說明我們的進度那以上"},{"start":1766.406,"end":1795.499,"text":"做这样的一个说明那整个跨部会的这个边境检疫其实我们有大概有七大的面向从宣导到入境旅客到整个的邮包快递的检查电商平台的管理然后还有后市长的稽查跟厨艺的管理跟走私的防范那这些整个的一个检查都是跨部会持续努力的一个情况那以上做这样的一个报告谢谢好谢谢部长的报告接下来我们请官务署彭署"},{"start":1796.363,"end":1816.368,"text":"彭署長主席各位委員先生 大家好那以下公務署就公務署執掌的邊境管制有關於非洲豬瘟防檢疫後續的防疫精進作為提出報告"},{"start":1817.896,"end":1834.939,"text":"海關是從107年中國大陸疫情爆發之後就積極協助主管機關農業部邊境防疫的一個管制那我們從這個貨物可能進口的一個途徑包括這個機場港口郵包快遞等進行"},{"start":1836.176,"end":1864.161,"text":"攔查違規肉製品的一個邊境管制作為那以下足以說明在入境旅客的部分行李的部分國際機場現在首體行李對中國大陸 越南 泰國39處高風險地區入境旅客的首體行李現在都是百分之百的X光檢查那拖運行李也是百分之百的X光檢查國際三港郵輪小三通入境旅客的行李目前也是百分之百都是經過X光檢查"},{"start":1864.921,"end":1883.099,"text":"那進口郵包的部分同樣也都是100%的X光檢查另外中華郵政公司他會預先分流來自高風險地區包括中國大陸 越南跟泰國等這些的進口郵包由海關來加強查核另外有房間署的檢疫權也會加強來繡紋"},{"start":1884.801,"end":1895.42,"text":"進口快遞的部分不管是空運的快遞貨物海運的快遞貨物目前都是百分之百實施X光的一個儀器檢查另外有同仁來實施適當比例的一個抽檢"},{"start":1897.011,"end":1915.172,"text":"就是開箱查驗 也包括不定期的實施來專案查緝那進口貨物櫃的部分 就是貨櫃跟航空櫃的一個部分那海關是運用風險管控的一個機制 來鎖定高風險的一個貨物 加強查核並且三節 端午節 中秋節跟春節"},{"start":1916.039,"end":1940.651,"text":"這些我們棄貨違規豬肉製品的高峰期間我們都會提高查驗的一個強度然後提醒同仁不可鬆懈那從107年1月1號到昨天為止那海關總共查獲豬肉跟含豬肉的製品有13500多件有22000多公斤那旅客的部分是佔大宗有1150幾件那佔"},{"start":1945.592,"end":1962.729,"text":"公斤數是18000多公斤那油包的部分有2900多件2700公斤快遞比較少一點是520件1454公斤那查獲後我們都是已有防檢署依照動物傳染病防治條例來做採取"},{"start":1963.908,"end":1979.047,"text":"那未來的一個策進作為那我們會跟房間署合作來嚴查高風險的一個旅客我們從統計數字來看的話目前旅客違規查獲的比例是比較多數那佔差不多五成以上"},{"start":1979.668,"end":2008.106,"text":"那這旅客當中又屬中港澳從這些航班入境的旅客查獲的比例占6成以上所以我們會針對這些高風險的一個航班入境的一個旅客來加強在綠線區域跟防檢署檢疫隊來合作加強這個旅客的一個行李檢查那一旦查獲的話會由防檢署立即開罰以達到嚇阻的一個效果"},{"start":2009.127,"end":2037.492,"text":"另外我們會加強人工開箱查驗的一個比例那我們會藉由風險控管的方式來鎖定高風險進口人跟進口快遞貨物來加強查核提高我們人工開箱查驗的一個比例有效來攬查步伐在優化查緝的工具部分目前海關有129部的X光機那我們陸續都太舊換新另外行政院也"},{"start":2038.493,"end":2063.141,"text":"核准我們的計畫再增加兩部高科技的X光軌道式的貨櫃檢查儀所以加上這兩部的話我們海關會有7部的軌道式X光檢查儀那有好的一個查緝工具那也要有好的人才跟專業的一個人才所以我們對我們海關同仁X光檢查儀的判讀等訓練課程都會加強這樣的一個教育訓練會持續來推動我們"},{"start":2065.021,"end":2087.019,"text":"X光检查仪判读人员的一个分级制度那我们当然会分享研讨我们过去查气的一个案例来提升我们海关整体查气统治的一个技巧跟X光判读的一个能力那防堵非洲诸分海关秉持的态度就是一向以最高标准最高规格跟高警戒的一个严谨态度来把守国门"},{"start":2087.78,"end":2105.323,"text":"不曾鬆懈 那海關也會陸續 後續也會進行我們的精進作為來加強一些優化查緝工具來精進風險管理 來維護我們農畜產業的一個安全來貢獻我們海關的一個心力 以上報告"},{"start":2115.421,"end":2130.035,"text":"好 我們謝謝彭處長的報告那接下來我要請問現場我們的委員足夠三人請問剛剛所宣讀的上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤沒有 那我們議事錄確認那接下來"},{"start":2133.462,"end":2149.431,"text":"我們有關本次這個要進行詢答的我們在委員詢答之前依慣例來做宣讀 美會委員發言時間6分鐘非本會委員4分鐘 上午10點半截止發言登記 我們首先可以給你講 對 好"},{"start":2156.741,"end":2181.42,"text":"是 是 是 放心好 這我們依照慣例來 接下來我們首先請第一位的邱益穎委員好 謝謝主席我請一下陳部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":2190.342,"end":2211.198,"text":"部長好部長您在10月20號左右聽到這個消息嘛對不對21號21號左右聽到這個消息你內心第一個想法是什麼我直接講啦或許你不好意思表達"},{"start":2212.523,"end":2236.834,"text":"我們守非洲豬瘟守了六七年好不容易在今年的五月我們獲得世界動物衛生組織的認證台灣是亞洲唯一一個口蹄疫豬瘟非洲豬瘟的三大非疫區結果一夕之間破功我昨天聽到這個消息的時候我非常非常的難過"},{"start":2239.582,"end":2267.37,"text":"部長這個是你們整理出來的整個疑似非洲豬瘟的大試劑疑似因為你昨天是用疑似這件事情來開記者會我進一步請教根據您今天的這一份報告我就一項一項來請教你大試劑我看我就也不用再特別看了初步的檢驗結果PCR核酸呈陽性那代表的意思是什麼"},{"start":2268.527,"end":2291.676,"text":"他就是確認他是非洲豬瘟是不是我想非洲豬瘟的確認等一下我是不是可以請我們的那個獸醫所來報告因為核酸片段是代表他有這樣子的核酸片段但是他還是要做完成的定序所以你還沒有做完完成的定序所以現在還不能告訴大家是不是確定是定序昨天做完了但是根據WOH如果說"},{"start":2294.257,"end":2320.439,"text":"這個國家發生第一例的時候那你必須做病毒的分類那病毒的分類大概要兩個禮拜的時間那病毒的分類確定了以後才能跟WHO去通報所以這段時間我們是用儀式的方式但是用最高規格的方式來處理好 如果是這樣的話我也尊重你們的處理機制不過部長我想要看的就是說這件事情"},{"start":2320.979,"end":2343.391,"text":"我覺得一定是有某些疏失這些疏失會出現在哪裡比如說在10月10號的時候台中的這個牧場已經開始有出現豬隻死亡14號台中動保處去訪視但是沒有採樣動保處認為沒有異常可是依照中央的規定你只要有"},{"start":2345.009,"end":2367.844,"text":"不確定性你只要有不知名原因的死亡都應該要立刻採檢結果台中的動保處拖了10天已經死了117頭豬了拖了10天才通報更扯的是在10月13號的時候這一家牧場還快速運了30頭豬出去賣"},{"start":2370.666,"end":2391.343,"text":"我不知道他內心到底知不知道他的牧場出狀況了然後想說趁這個時間趕快把這個豬趕快把它賣掉然後呢我看到最難過的是昨天的新聞我看到最難過的是最愛驗豬肉的盧秀燕市長一盒西部特羅驗了這樣子驗到台塘虧損連連"},{"start":2393.337,"end":2422.063,"text":"最該驗的豬隻死亡不驗不開記者會不說明竟然叫大家去參加台中購物節拼經濟到底盧秀燕市長知不知道這個養豬業者的所有的產值所影響的是多少億剛剛我們的昭緯講了昭緯一開始主持會的時候就講了這影響將近千億的產值這千億的產值盧秀燕賠得起嗎"},{"start":2423.676,"end":2445.517,"text":"盧修彥可以擔得起來嗎台中動保處可以擔得起來這個責任嗎很顯然沒有現在所有的作為幾乎全部是要交給你們農業部去做部長我要請教如果交給農業部去做後面的精進作為幾件事情請教農業部昨天講了幾個方案幾件事情第一個"},{"start":2447.011,"end":2471.342,"text":"禁宰豬肉第二個禁用這個廚餘餵食到底禁宰豬肉跟禁用廚餘餵食期間是要多久過去我們曾經有禁止廚餘餵食一個月那針對今天台中的這個案子你們的禁止廚餘餵食是會多久20天我們跟這個全國的養豬協會"},{"start":2473.823,"end":2489.134,"text":"做過電話聯繫做過討論他告訴我們為了要讓消費者安心20天是他們可以撐得住的就是20天賣台幣20天賣用廚餘去吃的他們是可以撐得住的農業部怎麼看"},{"start":2489.69,"end":2503.066,"text":"我想農業部針對這樣子的一個禁運禁載跟禁止使用廚餘我們是用他的一個可能發病的潛伏期15天所以我們的整個的禁運或是禁用廚餘是用以15天為"},{"start":2505.129,"end":2532.848,"text":"為最大的一個管制的時間點所以你現在是要禁載禁運跟禁用廚餘你現在抓的天數是15天但是我們每5天去做一個觀察那這些觀察就是讓我們的疫調能夠就是更精準的觀察那如果說在這15天之內如果說我們的疫情跟他的疫調的結果他沒有在擴散的時候那我們可能有機會提早解除這樣的一個禁令"},{"start":2533.388,"end":2561.472,"text":"所以現在就是很清楚的告訴大家以15天為基準 禁載 禁運 禁用廚餘養豬現在是以15天但是你用5天為一個觀察基數嘛所以是不是衛福不是衛福 對不起農業部是不是也能夠5天就公布一次你們這5天的觀察期的數據跟現在的進程你們的疫調的進程能夠讓社會大眾能夠讓消費者也安心也能夠讓我們的養豬業者安心"},{"start":2561.912,"end":2587.75,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在前進指揮所每一天工作會議結束以後每一天都會召開記者會對外說明每一天會把我們的疫調的進度對外說明讓我們的民眾了解好 謝謝部長第二個我要請教昨天你們的昨天我們的這個應變中心啊也特別提到那這些病死豬的處理模式應變中心要求這些所有的病死豬必須焚化"},{"start":2590.214,"end":2617.595,"text":"對不對必須要送到焚化爐去焚化但是台中市政府說他沒有辦法焚化台中市政府主張採取掩埋的方式部長您知道這件事情嗎那如果他要掩埋我要請教埋在哪裡如何掩埋對於土壤對於水源會不會造成污染對環境會不會造成影響"},{"start":2619.366,"end":2623.138,"text":"有合法的掩埋廠嗎有合法的病死豬掩埋廠嗎部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":2625.253,"end":2650.59,"text":"有 我跟委員報告就是對一般的病死豬除了主要是送到化織廠但是如果說因為特殊的原因沒有辦法送到化織廠的話它是可以就地掩埋或者是焚燒的部分但是掩埋也有一般掩埋的相關的作業規範而不是說就挖個坑就把病死豬就丟進去了所以相關的就算是掩埋它相關的部分也有相關的一個規範那今天最重要就是"},{"start":2651.673,"end":2676.384,"text":"因為台中本身是現在看起來的主要的疫區那我們做框定我們不希望說台東市裡面的這些豬隻有流到外縣市就是移出外縣市所以針對台東市是特殊的我們希望說他的病死豬的部分能夠就地處理那這個處理包括我們昨天也調度了一些生物處理機讓他去做有效的處理"},{"start":2677.406,"end":2696.285,"text":"部長你還是沒有回答問題啊他就地處理是要就地怎麼處理他是就地掩埋還是就地在地焚化爐去焚化嘛如果你很堅持用在地的焚化爐去焚化那我覺得這件事情我是支持農業部喔昨天我們在中央裡面你可以幫他協助看他要再去到哪裡就地的焚化爐我覺得"},{"start":2696.926,"end":2713.794,"text":"立刻把它焚化這個對大家來講會是比較安心埋在土裡你根本不知道他埋在哪一個野埋場那那個野埋場合不合法那個野埋場的處置作業適不適合這個都是大家擔心的一件事情所以這個可能會後我要請部長再"},{"start":2714.967,"end":2736.562,"text":"還是部長您現在要說明我們昨天開會的時候我們就請台中市政府送到焚化爐去但是焚化爐太大隻不能弄所以我們也增掉了許多生物處理機在焚化爐旁邊透過生物處理機來處理到一部分以後再進到焚化爐去我們是用這樣的態度台中市願意遵守嗎台中市願意已經媒合了我們媒合了就這個所以未來會這個"},{"start":2737.708,"end":2755.603,"text":"好如果是這樣不好意思主席再給我兩分鐘的時間這個剛剛關務署也特別報告我想這個農業部大概也有密切掌握其實這幾年來違規攜帶豬肉入境的還是層出不窮而且這個數量都還是頗多那我們的宣導"},{"start":2756.744,"end":2777.656,"text":"我們一直告訴大家不要攜帶豬肉入境這個會造成台灣有感染非洲豬瘟的風險結果沒有想到藍白兩黨認為你們的煤炫預算太多所以就聯手大砍的煤炫預算偉大的黃國昌委員還說要砍到讓大家有感"},{"start":2778.736,"end":2797.741,"text":"這真的大家就有感啦非洲豬瘟進來啦防疫宣傳不夠防疫動作不夠真的讓大家很有感而且這個感是憤怒被他們這樣預算亂砍導致台灣未來有可能成為非洲豬瘟的疫區我覺得這個是讓我們最感到"},{"start":2798.841,"end":2821.414,"text":"憤怒的地方部長最後一個我要跟您提醒我們現在等於是在亡羊補牢等於是在幫人家擦屁股在處理後續的事情但是後續的事情包括我剛剛講的這個病死豬的焚化處理的流程這個你們一定要趕快建立所謂的SOP第二個我們要求所有的"},{"start":2821.954,"end":2839.539,"text":"不管是養豬場也好所有的市場等等都要做清消那這些消毒水的供應是不是也能夠請農業部來協助各地方縣市政府趕快發送到各個養豬場或者是肉品市場或者是屠宰場等等"},{"start":2840.779,"end":2866.861,"text":"相關的場域這一些消毒水的發放甚至類似這樣的一個防疫的補助經費是不是也能夠請貴府部趕快盤點然後趕快來協助地方政府來做總之我希望雖然已經被突破了但是後面的亡羊補牢的工作後面的圍堵我們還是要持續加速甚至加緊加嚴來進行部長這個可以做得到嗎"},{"start":2867.261,"end":2888.101,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒這四點我們已經第三點第四點已經昨天就宣布了而且在做了那我在這邊要特別特別藉這個機會呼籲各地方政府因為現在各地方政府本身的一些畫製廠他是不允許其他縣市進到那邊畫製的那我覺得在這個時間點除了台東市我們單獨處理以外"},{"start":2888.621,"end":2909.531,"text":"那其他縣市的這些正常的病死豬的部分希望各縣市能夠一起合作讓他的豬隻能夠進到花枝廠這樣的話才不會流露到非法的這些丟棄我們希望說大家一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請林黛華委員請做詢問"},{"start":2919.704,"end":2921.926,"text":"好 有請部長我們再請陳部長好 部長 這個政策其實是要做預防"},{"start":2933.14,"end":2959.71,"text":"是要预防危机的发生那这个本席呢是也只针对您今天的简报也就是一个非常短期中的短期的一个究极因应还没有看到你中长期的一个怎么的预防的机制好那所以呢我还是要讲一直倡议的叫做智慧管理决策要智慧管理"},{"start":2960.29,"end":2985.704,"text":"那其實是從陳吉仲主委到您這個陳俊濟部長來講四年前本席就一直在倡議這個基因定序當中的重要性那它對於豬價的穩定對於防疫所有各養豬場的距向的掌握以及到你的一個生產力的提升"},{"start":2986.704,"end":3001.633,"text":"成本的降低生產力的提升其實全部都可以避其功以役而且是24小時365天所以今天我還是回到從4年多前30年前開始倡議的藉著你這次非洲豬瘟的普查"},{"start":3002.654,"end":3030.843,"text":"一定要結合生物安全資料庫也進而建立了穩定豬價的供應跟價格跟守住食安跟產業的信任豬價的穩定在上週的時候我說這個不是本席神預測現在從去年就在提醒說豬價一定會上漲您說你們會知道漲結果搞到今年我們豬價是全球第二高的國家"},{"start":3031.943,"end":3047.268,"text":"好那所以呢這個防疫講回來說到防疫守了7年那這個東南亞少數能維持非疫情的國家你們也做了因應了但是這些因應當中改以冷凍豬肉停止停止屠宰跟交易5天"},{"start":3048.428,"end":3075.874,"text":"這表示什麼一件事情我們的市場供應鏈是非常脆弱實安的資料是分散的所以呢再次提醒你在上一週本席的警告租價的穩定不是短期的問題是結構的問題政府痛定思痛務必建立全國租資的生物安全資料掌握環境與生物風險變化才能在疫情"},{"start":3076.935,"end":3094.849,"text":"價格 食安三者找到平衡所以今天的重點是希望藉著與非洲豬瘟的普查整合變成系統性的長期防疫防線冷凍豬肉的調度跟食安全國目前的冷凍豬肉的儲產量是6.2噸每日的消費是9500噸只能撐6天"},{"start":3100.934,"end":3110.023,"text":"所以您後續屠宰的時間如果延長了市場供應的供給一定是非常的緊急"},{"start":3112.236,"end":3131.663,"text":"所以我在這邊有兩個要求第一個市場的冷凍豬肉來源結構你必須立即公開這個公開是在疫情情節的食安透明度最基本的社會信任你要在48小時內明確的將這批冷凍豬肉的國產比例跟進口比例公開"},{"start":3132.543,"end":3157.197,"text":"第二個產地批次與倉儲溫控紀錄是否可以上網可查其實這兩個如果你有在本席三四年前就開始建立起你的智慧決策的一個共用平台的話其實這些你隨時我隨時問隨時都可以答全國人民都可以看好那你不做"},{"start":3158.377,"end":3177.224,"text":"那你就只好本席再次的要求這是在疫情期間食安透明度對社會最基本的信任要公開這兩項第二個在這個禁載期間供應減少導致批發價格我現在都講民生我現在是講人民不是講你講你這個農業部你的食安你的價格"},{"start":3180.905,"end":3201.046,"text":"你的價格如果超過了10%你現在租價已是天價如果因為這一波進展之後你再上漲10%必須拜託兩件事情第一個冷凍儲備的釋出這你已經在做了請你也要啟動平易租價基金趕快的穩定市場價格"},{"start":3203.008,"end":3226.845,"text":"不要把豬長期為農業部所苦也不要把豬變成行政團隊的包袱所以避免你只要市場的價格再次的變成讓民眾有恐慌性的採買這對現在的行政團隊又是雪上加霜所以綁上消費者保護農民的底線所以這邊是兩項要求再來"},{"start":3231.96,"end":3248.69,"text":"建立普查能夠結合普查建立組織的生物安全資料庫非洲防疫不是的這個防疫非洲豬瘟的防疫不是靠臨時應變現在你們叫臨時應變這次全國的普查是建立起結構化資料的絕佳機會"},{"start":3250.231,"end":3273.598,"text":"我再次再次的第二次的要求非洲豬瘟的普查結合全國豬隻生物安全資料庫的建設結合辦理具體三個第一個場居層級的資料第二個分子層級的監測第三資料整合與AI的預警你場居層級的資料由縣市防疫所協助採樣"},{"start":3275.859,"end":3281.485,"text":"輔導 具規模的中大型養豬場進行輔導記錄每座養豬場的環境倉庫你的溫濕度餵食來源進出人員場區消毒記錄建立數位防疫檔案"},{"start":3291.134,"end":3307.644,"text":"這個如果你有做從三四年前本席的倡議到現在你有做你現在就不會現在查到幾天了黃金的兩天內三天內你到現在還查不出來你的溯源還查不出來數位防禦痛定思痛做起來吧"},{"start":3308.064,"end":3333.771,"text":"我所謂中對增大型 台糖如果你你事先做 台糖是最大宗台糖你先導入了這樣每座養豬場環境的參數的導入建立數位防疫的資料那中小型的那我們就不用看了因為如果連中小型本席的選區也有啊中小型要這樣要求下去進出人員場區的消毒劑 他們做不來"},{"start":3334.871,"end":3362.543,"text":"但是中大型你要先導入中小型的你次看他的狀況看什麼的要求第二個分子層級的監測國營事業台糖自先導入基因育種跟分子檢測以市場的機制提升豬隻產續產的生產效益跟安全性你的屠宰場端與樣具中對豬隻檢驗進行兩件事情分子菌向檢測跟結合生物晶片"},{"start":3363.283,"end":3373.878,"text":"你百分百的掌握每隻豬啊豬隻環境的微生物豬的組成變化你怎麼可能還有疫情的發生"},{"start":3374.844,"end":3402.681,"text":"你都會掌握這不僅能提前發現病毒的跡象而且用來追蹤環境汙染跟抗藥性的菌株對未來食品安全管理奠定科學基礎都是建立在科學最後資料整合與AI預警由防菌署整合各縣市的防疫資料庫統一建立起株質健康環境檢測平台並以AI演算法監測異常菌群的變化自動發出預警"},{"start":3404.202,"end":3422.541,"text":"所以依照歐盟食品安全局的報告導入了分子檢測也就上述這三件事情非洲豬瘟的再發率是下降42%這不是理論這是實證台灣應該成為亞洲第一個以遜向資料防疫的國家"},{"start":3423.601,"end":3448.328,"text":"好再來講到價格價格與防疫是可以並行的從短期應變成長期的治理短期你穩定租價從冷凍調度跟平益基金平益基金是本席今天提出就長期穩定就還是一樣靠著資料科學與透明的決策建立租資生活安全資料庫之後你建立這個之後你可以有三件事情你就坐著"},{"start":3449.008,"end":3472.787,"text":"吹冷氣做你這個部長就夠了第一個透過即時檢測你這個安全庫有做出來你透過即時檢測預測疫情對供應鏈的影響第二個你可以提早釋放冷凍庫存避免價格的劇烈波動第三個以資料驅動補助政策資料驅動補助政策連你的補助都在建立在數據之上"},{"start":3474.548,"end":3493.483,"text":"針對高風險地區強化環境改善跟消毒設施這樣的系統能夠幫助地方政府掌握實際豬隻分布跟廚餘使用的狀況避免非法養豬或者不當廚餘流入市場從源頭穩定價格跟食安好 再來防疫科學化"},{"start":3494.404,"end":3522.837,"text":"守住食安重建人民的信任台灣已經防堵非洲豬瘟7年這呢防疫是長期戰豬價穩定是民生戰講好豬價穩定是民生戰防疫需要決心市場是需要制度的防我一再強調防疫不應該只是一時的禁止措施更應該建立長期的科學化結構的防線這邊短期長期我再次的要求"},{"start":3523.457,"end":3551.805,"text":"容業部期許容業部從上禮拜本席的質詢之後您我在沒有要求兩個月內要建立豬隻安全資料庫並且今天我一併的再次強調與非洲豬瘟的普查一同實施到包括價格的波動你也有要求你了在冷凍庫包括你的評議基金那包括你這個豬掌握豬隻的分布跟廚餘的使用這都您在簡報當中都有講本席都認同"},{"start":3552.705,"end":3561.242,"text":"未來結構性的防疫精進邊境的防土持續的做落實的做百分百的X光檢驗率市場的管理這邊"},{"start":3563.585,"end":3589.264,"text":"這個我也講了 結合國際GSI Summarize2027標準的推動這個Summarize是標籤的一個國際化的一個組織它2027年全球要推動 就是像ISO等等的類似這樣的一個標籤的一個全球的組織 它要推動那我們就是配合做 諸之圖宅導入QR Code"},{"start":3591.498,"end":3608.716,"text":"確保租資流通的通訊透明可追溯這不就是也是AI管理智慧平台嗎人要做好租才能管好守住食安就是守住農業更是守住人民的信任好 最後本席主張你們現在有一個基金"},{"start":3610.051,"end":3625.215,"text":"在百億基金在去年就已經截止了你們呢在去年6月24就已經呈報行政院 行政院到現在還沒核定這所謂的百億基金的第二期計畫那說百億也不到百億也不過68.8而已請農業部務必"},{"start":3629.356,"end":3649.505,"text":"行政院本週核定第二期的百億計畫從去年到現在還沒核定一年了放在行政院長辦公室一年了所以你現在趕快的核定這第二期的這樣的一個68.82億的計畫但是我認為要更名叫什麼"},{"start":3650.225,"end":3672.185,"text":"不叫做百億基金了 百億基金它做在什麼 它是在租場設備現代化在你們做了很多的補助 這認同第二期這68.81% 或者你認為 我認為都應該要增加預算叫做續產復興計畫 著重三件事情生產效益 防疫安全和科學管理好 來 以上 部長你請回應"},{"start":3674.912,"end":3703.195,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的一些期許然後我個人對大部分的一定百分之百認同特別是您特別提到生物安全庫的資料的一個建立這是一個非常重要的對於我們後續的租場的這些管理跟有效的掌握那相關的菌項的資料的一個部分那菌項至於說哪些菌項這個會回到專業去討論然後第三個就是透過這樣的方式做資料的整合跟AI的管理這個我想我百分之百認同那至於說"},{"start":3704.136,"end":3730.163,"text":"冷凍豬肉的部分的國產跟國外的去公佈因為這個東西都是不是政府購買的如果是政府購買一定百分之百公開但是我們是透過一些其他的冷凍工會冷凍廠商他們來釋出那這個東西就是由他們我們沒有辦法得到說他們的一個資料這個但是我們會去努力將我們自己能夠掌握的資訊能夠對外講"},{"start":3731.423,"end":3759.422,"text":"那不管是國產的或是國外進口只要符合安全的我想對產地批次倉儲溫控紀錄這當然可以上網啊不是如果是我們自己生產的自己掌握的所以你對進口的你完全是沒有辦法掌握他的場地包括批次在他上到國內的哪個地方包括他在哪個倉儲的溫控紀錄現在是不可查以現在的管理法規跟現在的制度是沒辦法"},{"start":3762.284,"end":3779.643,"text":"這是對於你在疫情期間釋出的冷凍豬肉當中的食安透明度你認為不必要嗎我產的部分沒關係你如果不必要就對大眾說這個在冷凍豬肉的釋出當中是沒有食安是一個空窗期的"},{"start":3779.983,"end":3794.817,"text":"我們是不需要把他的產現在沒做 未來也不需要做那麼請部長再詳細研議後我說國產的部分我們一定會有一個完整的溯源那國外進口的部分你要不要研議去建置呢"},{"start":3795.137,"end":3811.492,"text":"沒有 國外進來的部分是衛福部他主責的國外進來是食品的部分所以國產的部分我們會努力你跟衛福部討論我們會跟衛福部溝通去對於在你疫情期間的食安透明度我意思講你疫情期間食安這個沒問題對食安的透明度就沒有問題"},{"start":3812.653,"end":3834.821,"text":"謝謝部長 請將委員所提詳時研議後那您對於這個第二期的百億計畫其實只有68.82億您要不要請怎麼樣的要去跟行政院報告這件事情你今天就要馬上報告啦我想這個部分我們之前也在行政院溝通應該很快就會核下來的"},{"start":3835.521,"end":3863.46,"text":"那你的做法我主張是要續產復產基金生產效益防疫安全科學觀尤其科學觀你不是只有防疫包括你租資的競爭力你的生產成本是導致你的價格是全球這個租價全球第二高你不覺得這是很丟臉的一件事情好我們請部長因為時間的關係因為超過一半的時間你那麼認同在這個第二期的這樣的一個百億計畫當中"},{"start":3866.722,"end":3886.916,"text":"叫做素產復興計畫著重在生產效益防疫安全科學觀如果沒有你還是只有在廠租廠的現代化設備的投入你並不會對於你防疫跟科學管理跟生產效益當中你是沒有錢的你拿來的錢你沒有靠這筆錢你怎麼可以推動剛才本席所講的這個智慧管理呢"},{"start":3887.216,"end":3906.352,"text":"好 谢谢林委员的发言我们也请农业部请将委员所提的详实给委员说明清楚我已经提醒了我没有意见主席我没有意见我只是提醒部长谢谢好 接下来我们请郑天才委员请做询答"},{"start":3918.829,"end":3947.934,"text":"主席 國務委員 有請部長還有關務署好 我們請兩位 謝謝好 部長辛苦了還有關務署這個昨天22號這個農業部的新聞特別提到檢驗非洲豬瘟病毒核酸呈陽性反應所以你們"},{"start":3948.697,"end":3976.188,"text":"他很快的去做了很多的這個相關的緊急的防疫的作為所以從這個報告裡面是非洲豬瘟所以是 主要還是境外好 這個昨天22號你們也開了這個記者會然後相關的新聞提到這些這裡面"},{"start":3978.546,"end":3998.934,"text":"這裡面都沒有提到防範境外當然你先就國內的都沒問題當然今天的你的報告就提到了第一個就是加強民眾防檢疫的意識"},{"start":4001.105,"end":4029.22,"text":"當然昨天很多的媒體或者是媒體比較沒有啦主要是一些網路一直在網傳國民黨在這個刪減114年度房檢署的梅仙的預算事實上那個都是錯誤的因為國民黨最後通過的所提案的並沒有提這個案"},{"start":4030.259,"end":4059.412,"text":"是測案所以這個部分然後今天也有很多昨天也有很多網路在傳追加預算的時候也刪事實上追加預算的時候所刪減的這是三個黨團都同意的除了外交部的保持維留維持這個預算追加預算之外其他的都是三個黨團都同意的"},{"start":4060.635,"end":4089.614,"text":"所以这个部分其实我们最重要的还是我现在你今天的报告里面提到的民众的先导这个恐怕不是用媒体去报导就好了很重要的就是我们的国人出国的时候你就告诉他你就用一张纸给他去国外不要买什么东西回来"},{"start":4092.681,"end":4119.511,"text":"最重要的是這個他才會因為很多而且你要告訴他你買了東西你要仔細看裡面是不是有豬很重要的是這樣一般人民出去買東西也不會去看細項他含的是什麼通常也不會所以無論是"},{"start":4121.074,"end":4145.824,"text":"農業部房檢署或者是公務署都要朝這方面去努力防範境外第二個你提到針對39個國家高風險國家入境旅客S光機100%檢查行李到底有沒有這樣做房檢署跟公務署如果我們看這個"},{"start":4147.967,"end":4176.01,"text":"这一些媒体的新闻报道这是去年的12月15号事实上就没有没有完全的全部的来去做彻底的来去检查事实上如果这样的这个报道是正确的话事实上是没有那我们怎么样应该要防范于境外"},{"start":4177.113,"end":4198.952,"text":"这个才是最重要的好这里面你提到除了旅客输入另外就是电商电商平台卖家这个怎么样去做最有效的去检查你这边都提到了"},{"start":4200.252,"end":4228.966,"text":"防范查緝遺傳走私這些你都提了那怎麼樣去落實因為已經進來了之後怎麼樣去就很難了有它的難度了所以境外防范與境外因為畢竟它是從國外來的所以這個部分是我們要去加強要去做的"},{"start":4230.76,"end":4258.697,"text":"請問一下這個公務署要不要說明一下要怎麼樣去加強未來我先說明一下我想謝謝委員的一個說明我分兩個部分第一個部分就是整個境外的防範是一個跨機關跨部會的一個合作我們在107年12月12號成立中央一面中心以後就不斷的去檢討我們的強度是越來越強我們的強度從來沒有說"},{"start":4261.179,"end":4274.654,"text":"107年跟現在有越來越疏於管理而且是越來越精進越來越強所以我們才能夠守住這過去7年來的一個努力這第一個說明但是宣傳的部分我要跟委員講"},{"start":4275.515,"end":4297.47,"text":"就是農業部就房檢署的部分他3000多萬刪了大概2000萬但是就算預算被刪了我們還是非常努力的去做相關的一個宣導不會說預算被刪了以後而不做宣導沒有這回事我們還是很努力的去做相關的一個宣導這個我剛剛講了這個宣導要落實啦"},{"start":4298.973,"end":4321.659,"text":"你光去那个媒体其实大家不会去在意不会去注意媒体的寻找是一个多元的不管是用媒体我刚才我介绍一下飞机上面的萤幕都有部长我刚刚的建议可不可以做就是说只要出国的乡亲你就告诉他不能买什么"},{"start":4322.887,"end":4329.767,"text":"进来可以吗这个很重要这个最能落实啊不然一般乡亲也不会去注意啊"},{"start":4331.414,"end":4359.909,"text":"这个才是最能够落实你们去处理好不好我们在今年的端午节就有试着这样子在check in的时候就给他一段相关的宣导对 很好 就是要继续这个部分我想我刚才说的我们的边境的防患的部分我们会不断的精进这个是最重要最重要最重要的一定要去落实第二个难免看起来有疏还是有疏漏嘛 对不对所以进来了嘛"},{"start":4360.959,"end":4388.061,"text":"所以进来了进来了怎么办呢对不对这个部分就是说除以到底这个除以这个很多早该前面进除以养猪对不对这个就是你难以防范进来"},{"start":4389.366,"end":4414.767,"text":"你說你剛剛進進了很多我跟委員報告你剛才講到這個廚餘我跟委員報告一件事情就是我們現在廚餘養豬一定要經過徵主我知道你都有寫了對 這個是一個非常重要所以廚餘養豬只要他經過合格的這些徵主的部分是一個安全的飼料我覺得不要去污衊我沒有污衊廚養豬的部分第二個部分我想跟委員報告"},{"start":4415.467,"end":4436.073,"text":"就好像我們在路上交通事故頻繁的時候我們不能說因此而不能開車 不能騎車所以我們會精進整個廚藝的監管廚藝長的監管這個是大家的心聲那你認為說是可以防範的但是顯然沒有沒有防範好嘛"},{"start":4436.613,"end":4451.343,"text":"所以那個源頭很重要不是 現在的疫調還在進行中所以它的來源到底是從哪裡來的我想我們還沒有辦法去做決定所以我們也不能說這個來源一定是從廚藝或一定是從哪邊因為在疫調沒有完成之前"},{"start":4452.464,"end":4478.352,"text":"對不對沒有 國外的部分一定是從國外進來的那國外進來它有非常多的管道進到我們的豬場所以我在這邊我想我們第一時間就是我們會去做疫調疫調完了以後我們會定期的跟外界說明那最後的疫調的結果我們才能夠知道可能的來源是從哪裡來的來源一定是國外嘛 對不對這個是確定的嘛 好不好 加油是"},{"start":4485.056,"end":4499.126,"text":"謝謝 謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員請做巡檔主席謝謝 那我想請陳部長我們再請陳部長餵好再下一個"},{"start":4509.963,"end":4531.6,"text":"部長我想我主要還是要呼籲大家必須要冷靜理性然後中央跟地方一定要攜手合作來防範這一次的疫情爆發包括說昨天你們已經宣布說要禁止廚餘養豬想請問一下說禁止廚餘養豬大概會禁止多久呢"},{"start":4531.96,"end":4544.006,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在設計這個鏡子圖養豬是用他可能的潛伏期就是15天但是我們每5天會做一個觀察那我想請問一下現在全台灣到底有多少豬隻呢500再養頭數大概是500500"},{"start":4550.778,"end":4553.962,"text":"505.8萬505.8萬嘛505.8萬請問目前廚藝養豬的大概是多少戶我們這樣講就是廚藝養豬戶有5552場那其中廚藝養豬的有435場35場"},{"start":4569.98,"end":4573.222,"text":"本席幫你算過了就是全台灣這麼多頭豬只有將近46萬是廚餘養豬所以只佔了全國養豬戶的8%所以你現在告訴我說你不全面禁止廚餘養豬為了這46萬頭要犧牲500多萬頭為了這8%你要讓台灣成為非洲豬瘟的破口嗎"},{"start":4598.732,"end":4621.728,"text":"不過我想我們現在目前禁止廚餘養豬或者是禁宰禁運最主要是把這個傳播鏈先做斷鏈這就是下一個問題就是下一個問題才會去做移調但是後續的廚餘養豬的政策我想我們會是希望可長可久我們台灣的養豬產業你知道這個一旦爆發之後我本席就問你假設爆發之後會影響整個產值多少"},{"start":4625.854,"end":4647.529,"text":"以純粹豬產業的話 大概800多億但是觀念產業的話 稍微1000億是吧 本席也幫你算過不只1000億 可能1500億 也有可能2000億這影響的是全國人民欸可能會打擊非常多人的生計所以在現在 你告訴我說到底要禁止廚藝養豬多久"},{"start":4648.598,"end":4663.133,"text":"我想我們還是以就是15天當作一個所以你覺得先禁止15天為了這8%吃廚餘的這個養豬戶你要只禁止15天因為這8%46萬頭你要影響500"},{"start":4667.478,"end":4673.863,"text":"50萬頭是嗎550萬頭我還是跟委員說明就是廚藝養豬他如果經過珍珠廠合格的珍珠這個等於是安全但是他畢竟是一個破口啊你同意嗎你同意他是一個破口嗎他可能是破口之一是吧他就是破口之一他就是一個破口他就是一個破口那這個影響是1000億至2000億的產業你告訴我說為了這8%"},{"start":4696.582,"end":4715.876,"text":"你要影響這麼多人你堅持不禁止全面禁止廚藝養豬的理由是什麼我沒有說不禁止那我剛才說的你沒有說不禁止就是你要禁止囉我們這個政策我們需要去做滾動檢討那我們現在的策略就是從108年到現在那個廚藝養豬廠從"},{"start":4717.617,"end":4723.123,"text":"從一千多場變成四百多場不見得去輔導他轉型那現在告訴你說已經有爆發人你必須立即全面禁止全面輔導他轉型這個才是你農業部現在手要手應該要趕快去做的呀你農業部不趕快去做你告訴我說你15天之後還要觀察"},{"start":4741.841,"end":4760.148,"text":"你為什麼不能說先進一年先進三年試試看你試試看之後其實很多我們台灣的黑豬其實吃豆料也是可以我再問你下一個問題就是染上病毒的這些豬隻到底有沒有流入市場"},{"start":4762.372,"end":4789.272,"text":"以我们现在的观察我们是在病死猪去检测到的但是从我们的疫调过程中它过程中所以你也不确定说染上这个非洲猪瘟的猪肢到底有没有流入市场是吗屠宰场出来都会屠宰前屠宰后都会进入位置所以有掌握最新的流向吗有掌握最新的流向说到底这个病死猪我们有掌握我们没有病死猪流到屠宰场"},{"start":4790.526,"end":4812.782,"text":"真正的屠宰進到那個肉餅市場都會那個圖前跟圖後都由獸醫師檢查所以這個部分都是安全的我想消費者不要疑慮所以也呼籲消費者絕對不要擔心絕對不要擔心因為他是不會傳染給人的是不是 是所以另外我也想要請問一下國內那現在目前有豬肉短缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":4814.897,"end":4835.975,"text":"現在因為我們禁運了以後那短時間之內市場上的這些需求我們都是用冷凍的方式所以會啟動就是進口國外的豬肉嗎不會 我們現在冷凍我們協調冷凍工業冷凍廠來供應第一個最重要的學童午餐第二個就是我們的一些市場所以我們的庫存量大概有將近26到1個月的時間"},{"start":4837.056,"end":4856.794,"text":"本席在這裡提醒你你假設要從國外進口你也要檢查非洲豬瘟的這個病菌因為它在冷凍肉品裡面是可以生存將近一千天的所以這一個也是我們必須要防堵的可是呢再回過頭來包括邊境管制假設你全面禁止廚餘養豬"},{"start":4858.556,"end":4880.651,"text":"你邊境管制就可以就不用那麼緊張你知道嗎這是一個雞生蛋誕生機的問題你如果假設禁止全面廚餘養豬邊境管制大家帶進來就不會那麼緊張我跟委員報告就是非熱豬的傳播不只是廚餘可能人體人的帶動我知道所以還有很多的"},{"start":4880.871,"end":4892.759,"text":"我知道但是禁止廚餘養豬是已經可以降低風險很多包括我們雲林縣早在七年前張立善縣長上任的時候他就全面禁止廚餘養豬那個時候就也有呼籲當時的農委會的主委陳吉仲那時候就呼籲陳吉仲主委說應該全面禁止廚餘養豬圍堵這件事情所以現在有很多的鄉親另外還有要講的就是"},{"start":4910.151,"end":4916.914,"text":"假設真的未來爆發了就是要撲殺補助的部分我們還是希望說這個是個案但是我們必須要料敵從寬未來如果進行撲殺本席建議必須要從優從寬的原則比照當初禽流感的這個模式你一定主動通報的機制然後依據市場價格進行全場全額補助的這樣的機制"},{"start":4936.764,"end":4953.069,"text":"因為我們不能讓農民為了配合防疫而造成他重大的損失那這更是為了鼓勵農民主動通報的一個重大機制不要避免說他為了隱瞞然後不通報而造成的這個死角這個部長認同嗎"},{"start":4955.078,"end":4977.718,"text":"我想如果不是市主刻意隱瞞我們做全場撲殺的部分一定有我們相關的撲殺經費那第二個部分就是飼料的部分我剛才講的我們會去做一個滾動的檢討因為現在目前除以養豬的大縣就包括新北 桃園 台中 新竹然後還有屏東這幾個大縣因為除以養豬可是只有46萬頭啊"},{"start":4979.499,"end":4990.607,"text":"可是他吃廚餘的也只有45萬頭啊我們會去加強這些養豬大縣裡面也只有全國加起來只有46萬頭佔全國豬隻的8%因為這8%造成了影響上千億的這個產業鏈的風險你覺得值得嗎沒有 我剛才說的"},{"start":5000.374,"end":5015.116,"text":"風險是有來自不同的我再提醒一下部長我們會逐步的去調整我再提醒一下部長說假設不幸真的爆發我們必須撲殺那後續這些株枝的處理你們怎麼處理因為目前台灣只有"},{"start":5015.777,"end":5036.335,"text":"五個化智場有五個縣市有九個化智場只有宜蘭彰化雲林台東屏東五個縣市有化智場那怎麼辦呢是不是中央要有統一協調撲殺後株枝的處理辦法否則如果假設二度污染怎麼辦我現在本席"},{"start":5037.296,"end":5045.698,"text":"不是要挑戰農業部或者是要給你們找麻煩我們現在是希望大家一起攜手把這些事情有可能會發生的我們預先把這些機制擬出來其實這也會相當程度安定我們豬農的心非常謝謝委員這樣的一個建議特別在化製廠的部分"},{"start":5058.041,"end":5086.253,"text":"像昨天我就特別提到因為台東現在比較看起來是疫區所以台東市的豬一定不會流到其他縣市然後第二個部分就是現有的酒家的化製廠本身我們都希望說透過聯合調度的方式大家縣市彼此放掉彼此擔心的然後就是接納其他的縣市的部分那後續因為以現在的量大概一年可以處理100萬頭但是如果緊急的時候一定不夠那怎麼辦"},{"start":5086.893,"end":5112.459,"text":"所以我們就必須做一個當緊急有緊急方式的目前有很多豬農給本席反應就是說有沒有可能補助他們小型的焚化的器具讓他們可以就地焚化但是這個當然我覺得要專家評估這個叫做生物處理機那這個部分我們絕對會來考慮我們絕對會來考慮因為在場裡面做生物處理的方式因為它移動還是有風險的所以這一點可能請部長"},{"start":5113.919,"end":5118.443,"text":"薛議員的建議像這個生物處理機我們會來考慮那我最後還是想跟部長說就是防疫視同作戰那中央跟地方包括我們委員會包括整個立法院我想都全力的支持你一定要用最謹慎最快的速度還有決心來守護這些豬農還有守護所有消費者的餐桌安全"},{"start":5135.994,"end":5149.045,"text":"謝謝 我想中央跟地方一定要充分合作還有包括全國的消費者或者豬農我們一起來努力我相信一起努力的話我們會把疫情降到最低的一個風險是 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前委員請做詢問"},{"start":5164.092,"end":5191.412,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長部長好我想說碰到這個非洲豬瘟的個案狀態的時候其實我們一定是非常的擔心可是防疫是同作戰那我在想說我們在經濟委員會我們都很務實我們在想怎麼樣子能夠解決問題而不是在打口水"},{"start":5192.012,"end":5211.564,"text":"所以我想說一開始我一定要特別提到說最近在網路上有很多的風向在特別在講說因為藍白三預算沒宣費的時候然後才產生非洲豬瘟我覺得這完全是莫名其妙因為你剛剛有特別提到說這個非洲豬瘟他不可能從台灣自己生起來他一定是外來的對不對所以邊境的一個"},{"start":5213.096,"end":5239.696,"text":"儘管檢驗一定是最重要的是不是是嘛對不對所以說我在這邊要特別提到我就說事實上我們在今年的追加預算當中的時候莊總預算追加預算當中的時候其實包括民進黨在內是三黨有共識針對於這個沒宣費的問題是三黨有共識的所以我就在這邊就不要再去考慮什麼沒宣費然後要去帶風向去什麼抹黑在野黨的狀態我覺得這真的是不需要"},{"start":5240.776,"end":5263.978,"text":"工業部並沒有這樣子的思維希望 因為我們現在看到網路上面有很多的網軍就開始在帶風向我覺得這真的是莫名其妙的事情完全沒有把真正的問題點看出來那現在我們就特別看到的狀態就是說既然部長剛剛也特別提到非洲軍一定是外來的至於說它是怎麼樣的產生你剛剛提到說也許有很多可能性包括人體可能會帶進來對不對"},{"start":5265.68,"end":5292.561,"text":"它都有很多的可能性所以我們的邊境的管控絕對是最重要的那我這邊我就先問一個問題事實上在那個我們從109年的時候我們整個那個易檢的全組總共有多少109年的時候 檢疫全組"},{"start":5297.105,"end":5299.707,"text":"現在56組嘛對不對其實在109年的時候只有50組從109年前是50組那麼109年開始有56組我給你們看個數字109年的時候我們的一個就是"},{"start":5317.324,"end":5336.257,"text":"入境的人數大概只有398萬人因為那時候大概有疫情沒有問題到現在的時候已經有了2494萬人入境人數包括我們國人的部分因為我們入境都必須要有這樣子的一個檢疫對不對可是我們現在的那個"},{"start":5337.638,"end":5351.425,"text":"檢疫犬的部分的時候還是只有56組工作量成長了已經快要8倍左右的狀態這種狀態的時候我想請問一下我們現在檢疫犬它的一個檢疫覆蓋率大概有多高"},{"start":5352.54,"end":5382.26,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的所有的邊境的檢查那檢疫犬是一個輔助的作為理解他不是用這個部分最主要是用X光機那我們在X光機的判度的部分是百分之百嗎我有看到這個數字一個重要的就是X光機我們現在希望包括光務組包括中研院都有合作就是讓他用AI更精準的判試的時候那相對的那個檢出的準確率越來越高然後檢疫犬是在做這個邊境的部分的一些通道的部分有沒有"},{"start":5382.9,"end":5411.523,"text":"特別是要出關的時候其他的輔助嘛那因為我們現在之前沒有問題的時候我們可能也覺得這樣也許夠可是問題現在碰到的狀態我們就希望不要有百密一疏的情況所以針對檢疫犬這個部分的時候我們是不是有需要要增加已經有因為檢疫犬需要培訓然後最近我們現在也一直不斷的確認然後從美國的部分這邊然後還有其他的公務署這邊也在協助一起來協助把這個檢疫犬輔助的作為能夠增加"},{"start":5412.244,"end":5419.198,"text":"預計能夠增加多少組多少多快的時間"},{"start":5421.021,"end":5429.245,"text":"沒有我想這算是整個公讓權我想我們回去再做仔細的評估好那針對這個部分的時候因為我想從109年就只有56組那時候只有398萬入境人數現在到113年已經到了2494萬入境人數的時候我就還只剩下56組我就顯然不合理那之後我們檢疫權的一個人數"},{"start":5443.131,"end":5451.639,"text":"犬數要怎麼樣增加再給本席很清楚的一個資料我只是再補充一下我們在對非洲豬瘟的控管裡面有分國家分為"},{"start":5452.85,"end":5480.01,"text":"高風險跟低風險 理解這個部分我們都知道所以旅客也分流了以後 理解理解這個只要有入境的人大概都知道這題目先不用特別講因為時間有限那我要特別講到因為在這一次整個的一個非洲豬的事件當中大家對於廚餘的問題其實就非常的有感因為目前感覺上好像是廚餘這邊導致的一個問題那我這邊要特別提到就像我也不想很口水的去講說其實張立善在就是2018年當縣長"},{"start":5482.191,"end":5493.48,"text":"他那時候就特別提到要敬畏廚餘可是當時的一個行政院長賴清德他其實是表示反對的那我不想口水講這個事情可是我只是想要講說廚餘這個問題因為目前只有8%的"},{"start":5498.524,"end":5513.055,"text":"株枝是用廚餘的部分剛剛有特別提到46萬頭那我想請教一下針對現在我們要用廚餘的部分都必須要有高溫蒸煮的一個情況請問這個部分有沒有真正的落實"},{"start":5514.076,"end":5533.224,"text":"我想我們的每一個高溫蒸煮廠本身它的中心溫度90度C一個小時我們都有資料就是去看它的溫度計然後把這個影像回溯環境部的部分回溯到環境部的後面的資料那我們會去檢查"},{"start":5533.704,"end":5562.456,"text":"因為當時賴清德當行政院長他那時候表示說因為用廚餘養豬有時候是因為成本的一個考量所以針對這個部分的時候呢你如果說要90度要高溫蒸煮一個小時以上的部分的時候我在想說很多這樣子的養豬廠他們會不會為了要控制成本而沒有真正的去落實去達到而且你如果是高溫蒸煮一個小時通常其實廚餘會有很難聞的味道可能周邊的"},{"start":5563.436,"end":5575.463,"text":"那個也會有一些抱怨所以我在認為我們對於高溫真主這件事情如果沒有辦法真正有效的落實的時候是不是就全面的禁止廚餘餵養"},{"start":5576.774,"end":5599.469,"text":"我想要不要用廚餘我們後續會滾動檢討但是一個非常重要的就是你如果要用廚餘的話我們所使用的廚餘的相關的規範是一個安全的那現在重要的就是我們一定要去加強監管的部分是非常重要那我剛才說的廚餘養豬的這些溫度計有沒有他是有影像攝影去判試的理解所以我們一定會加強監管"},{"start":5600.478,"end":5619.243,"text":"有完整的規範本席認為以台灣的法律體系一定會有問題是如何去落實去這件事情我覺得是最重要的好不好那我們希望大家一起中央地方一起合力來解決這次非洲豬瘟的一個挑戰好不好是好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5625.936,"end":5641.716,"text":"好 接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員請做詢答好 謝謝趙偉 請陳部長我們再請陳部長部長我先請教一下這個非洲豬瘟的部分現在看來應該是只剩程序應該99.94%非洲豬瘟應該是這樣吧"},{"start":5646.677,"end":5665.325,"text":"對 以我們現在對於核酸的片段的確認跟序列的確認它應該就是應該就是非洲豬瘟的通報的程序裡面只剩下程序把它走完而已對 還要做分類了以後的程序走完以後我們就會那個正式通報為非洲豬瘟是對 好那再來我請教一下這個非洲豬瘟的病毒株跟越南是一樣的嗎"},{"start":5666.141,"end":5685.188,"text":"我根據我們的檢測的結果它的序列裡面它是一個重組的序列然後比較接近於越南我請我們的獸醫所的所長來說明沒關係 就是應該是可能性很高啦對不對不是 因為我們用非核株的病毒序列非常長那我們目前只訂了其中的三段"},{"start":5685.948,"end":5705.224,"text":"那他要知道病毒從哪裡來或是不是蟲毒豬要其他的部分完整的分析那我們今天會有初步的結果會知道他是從所以部長跟越南的很類似嘛對不對目前沒有但其實多數還是跟第二基因型就是中國或者是在那個東南亞流行豬所以比較像越南豬而已"},{"start":5707.369,"end":5724.421,"text":"OK好所以中國跟越南是都有可能的對好那再來我請教一下部長我們現在是禁運5天啊但這個時間上面剛剛很多人也提到了會再延長嗎不是我們不是說延長我想我們的整個的一個禁運期間是根據我們的可能的潛伏期就是15天"},{"start":5725.041,"end":5740.988,"text":"但是我們用5天來做觀察所以禁疫15天那5天5天觀察如果狀況控制下來就可以縮短而且是可以限制在某個區域的話那我們就會開始就是做這些解禁的動作就是15天所以以15天"},{"start":5742.428,"end":5759.67,"text":"那再要請一下部長這個來源到底是從哪邊來的是從境外就是由那個境內還是到底這個來源是從哪裡我想我們現在看到的是一個結果那我們才會啟動疫調那我剛才說的這個來源本身因為非洲豬瘟的傳播"},{"start":5760.458,"end":5785.011,"text":"他有非常多的多的方向包括人員可能出國進來帶進來的也有可能廚餘那也有可能從走私有些東西其他的東西然後進到那個生物防治做得不好由其他的人員有沒有參觀的人員來污染的所以這三樣都有可能就對了所以在疫調沒有完整呈現之前我們不能揣測說他的來源一定是哪一個所以這三樣都不排除對"},{"start":5786.219,"end":5799.774,"text":"那最有可能是哪一個 目前不過現在因為疫調還在進行 我們沒有辦法判斷因為特別是人員的部分那我請教 因為在15天的一個狀況的話從10月10號如果發病的話那應該是最早是在9月底囉 是不是"},{"start":5800.595,"end":5823.705,"text":"回推的話最快的15天前15天前的話那就9月底10月10號發生的第一個嘛所以9月底就發生了所以等於9月底後的會全面去清查對我們從10月往前回溯往前回溯15天往後控制15天這樣好那我請教一下為什麼到了10月14號才去訪視然後甚至於場主還拒絕訪視這有沒有問題"},{"start":5825.322,"end":5844.489,"text":"不過我想我們報告所呈現的那個時序的部分都是在第一時間去問台東市的動保處的人員的一個回應那我剛才說了這個回應只是單方面的回應那到底我們要做疫調嗎部長那這個你認為初步來看有沒有檢討改進的空間"},{"start":5845.409,"end":5863.48,"text":"這個我想以這樣的作為來看絕對有一我們有必須有精進的部分啊有必須有更精進的一個作為就如果可以在第一時間能夠去掌握到的話甚至第一時間去做比如說10月14能夠直接做一個相關的一個檢查的話檢測的話那有可能在那個時間點就找出來"},{"start":5864.36,"end":5889.105,"text":"對當然當你發現異常越快檢測它的擴散就也不會那麼那麼容易所以無論我們應該10月14那一批應該是要來檢測才對是吧對以我們現在看到畫質上異常的現象的話它從10月1號到10月總共有5批啦有5批異常那其實我們都有監控後端的畫質的嘛畫質的數量那這5批的異常如果能夠更早的話我相信能夠更快的能夠"},{"start":5889.725,"end":5902.973,"text":"所以有檢討改進的空間有精進的空間對那因為動物傳染病防治條第9條第13條其實他不得拒絕嘛這你說案主是不得拒絕的是吧那如果你拒絕依照45條你是有罰則的那為什麼這會開罰嗎"},{"start":5905.543,"end":5921.5,"text":"不過我想就是因為地方政府在看的時候他會看當場的現象如果地方政府的動保人員他覺得應該要去實際的去檢查的時候那個事主就不能拒絕所以沒有要求"},{"start":5921.9,"end":5937.383,"text":"所以沒有這個就是要疫調我們才能夠知道所以我希望未來在這件事情上面要加強在這一塊的整個制度上的建立就是說類似像這樣狀況如果10月14有強力的要求一定要做那個的話你不做的話我依照傳染病的防治我可以開罰的"},{"start":5938.024,"end":5954.679,"text":"那當時如果做的話也許我們就多出更多的時間我們可能多出至少六天的時間來做一些陰影所以我希望這一些未來讓大家如果整個檢討裡面應該要去做檢討我們一定的我們在疫調的過程中一定發現說可能有很多地方必須精進啦我們一定會來做那我問了一下啦齁目前有沒有蔓延出去"},{"start":5956.727,"end":5980.545,"text":"有沒有蔓延出去整個病毒狀況有沒有控制住蔓延我想我們現在看到的就是觀念場附近的觀念場都沒有異常其他的周邊是沒有異常的對就是觀念場3公里之內所以都是在這個暗場內對大概暗場內暗場內的也都鋪砂了對已經鋪砂了所以我們現在先鎖定台中區是一個主要的疫調的作為因為他的觀念場都在台中跑"},{"start":5981.025,"end":5997.935,"text":"所以只要在這接近的這15天的時間如果周邊沒有再發生任何狀況有可能第一步就先控制一下然後我們也全國性的因為這15天我們也會做全國性的一個調查嘛那看看有沒有可能就是說其他地方如果沒有症狀的話我想那就是很明確的鎖到這個案例這樣子"},{"start":5998.683,"end":6025.25,"text":"那部長我請教那像這樣的事情的發生對我們的豬肉對我們整個經濟的產值會有什麼樣的影響我想喔在禁運禁載的期間一定會有一些階段性的影響那我剛才說的這些豬肉衝擊會有多大那我們盡可能的就是將我們的冷凍的冷凍的庫存釋出給薛東央我說的是整體未來我們的產業如果沒有守住這一關的話整個衝擊會有多大如果完全沒守住的話遇到前一以上的損失嗎"},{"start":6026.243,"end":6053.968,"text":"我們光租的產業就800多億然後冠延產業的話超過1000億我希望政府努力啦中央地方合作最後我問一下台中農業局說該做的都已經做了部長同意這樣的說法嗎我不知道他說這句話他做了什麼東西我沒辦法評斷但是我想我們在疫調一定會呈現出完整的從現在這樣真相揭露我認為應該還有很大努力的空間對一定是有我們必須改進的空間好我希望中央地方合作來改善對我們一定這樣做"},{"start":6055.66,"end":6077.319,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝接下來我們請陳婷菲委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 我們請部長我們再請陳部長委員好"},{"start":6078.107,"end":6098.42,"text":"部长我想要了解的是说现在为什么10月10号台中的养猪场的猪只出现死亡之后然后他们没有第一时间做相对应的处理我们的SOP到底是怎么定的"},{"start":6099.355,"end":6127.914,"text":"這也是我們為什麼這個會啟動疫調的非常重要的一個詢問的地方因為一般出現異常死亡的時候地方政府動保處人員要第一時間去看那有可能是一般的疾病或是管理的不當那也有可能有其他的病方但是如果有異常死亡的話應該要更敏感的去檢測啦所以依照我們一般的SOP是如果有豬場"},{"start":6129.455,"end":6141.284,"text":"出現了死亡而且是異常的死亡我跟委員報告 異常的死亡如果是以200頭以上到500頭以下他只要租場裡面有百分之"},{"start":6143.121,"end":6163.663,"text":"3%的话我们就叫异常那异常的部分我们就会地方政府就会去查都有一定的标准所以异常死亡不是随便讲的这个SOP都有定的非常清楚所以到底到了什么程度一定要去做通报这个你们也讲得非常清楚我觉得我们这一次虽然"},{"start":6164.123,"end":6182.308,"text":"要疫調可是我們要把重新這個SOP拿出來檢討到底是哪一個環節出了問題然後呢好10月10號台中養豬場豬隻出現死亡之後然後呢台中市政府10月14號是有去訪視的喔結果訪視沒有採樣"},{"start":6187.291,"end":6216.271,"text":"我想这个东西就是我们一定要去了解的就是当初没有采样是事主不同意采样还是当初是事主可以不同意采样吗不可以如果说动保人员觉得应该要采样的时候事主不得拒绝所以这个部分也是我们要去了解的对这就是我们要了解的事主是不能拒绝的所以这个关键点我觉得这里有两个关键点这也是这个案子发生之后我们希望在未来各县市"},{"start":6217.211,"end":6240.698,"text":"一定要警惕就是說10月10號出現了死亡為什麼你們沒有去做相對應的動作因為我們有說嘛 異常異常有一個標準到底他是不是有到達異常好10月14號為什麼去到現場訪視沒有採樣這很嚴重耶到底是因為"},{"start":6241.938,"end":6260.279,"text":"施主不同意可是施主是不能不同意啊因為你已經發現了要去採樣而且有問題了那就有強硬的動作嘛我們的法印都已經訂得非常清楚好之後沒有採樣一直到10月20累計死亡到117頭"},{"start":6263.413,"end":6288.852,"text":"那麼台中市政府才採樣送檢中央你看這當中多久10天10天這是非常嚴重所以這10天到底是哪一個環節鬆了我覺得我們要把這個案件變成是一個非常重要我們以後警惕其他縣市政府"},{"start":6289.713,"end":6304.359,"text":"一個很重要的關鍵是的 我想透過這樣的一個很清楚的釐清以後那一定有一些必須改進的然後你們就化為新的一個作為然後會通報到通應到其他的縣政府是 這才是最重要然後"},{"start":6305.379,"end":6333.884,"text":"到了10月21號中央收到檢體並檢驗呈陽性你們就開始動作了對不對就開始動作了好包括我們馬上召開應變的措施會議然後馬上要求要把豬隻整個移動作為管制他到底他的整個足跡到哪裡他的豬隻載運到哪裡都要整個管制好"},{"start":6334.784,"end":6355.722,"text":"然後也進行了撲殺那我要問部長那請問我們現在掌控因為畢竟有20天10天 有10天這樣的一個時間空窗期有10天好 這10天我們有掌控這些組織的所有軌跡嗎"},{"start":6358.342,"end":6377.948,"text":"有 我們所有的因為我們是以車追廠以廠在追車那從化製車的還有運租車的這些軌跡它整個大範圍的大概關聯廠有33廠那大部分都在台東地區然後比較接近的跟這廠有直接關係的就是有去買租的這個廠"},{"start":6379.048,"end":6407.326,"text":"没有异常然后有载运的这个场没有异常方圆三公里的没有特别的死亡异常所以现在我们有掌控到方圆三公里的周边是没有异常的它的轨迹是没有异常的但是还有一些我们目前还在做疫调疫调在了解在追踪当中33场我们预计这33场多久可以给我们民众有一个安心我想我们预计是在"},{"start":6408.146,"end":6423.854,"text":"第一個就是五天之內我們有一個初步的一個結果但是因為有一些潛伏期啦我們也不能掉以輕心但是我們在前進的應變所裡面每一天都有工作會議看進度然後會跟外界做記者會對外說明"},{"start":6424.754,"end":6453.536,"text":"我們一定要讓這個訊息完整的對外說明讓民眾來非常公開透明每一次我們有什麼樣的訊息我們就對外因為這不僅是我們食的安全還有我們整個對整個豬隻產業的問題所以這牽扯到兩個層面所以我們一定要把它很公開告訴大家現在的狀況到達什麼樣的程度那麼"},{"start":6454.136,"end":6476.498,"text":"我们现在也已经拉高了是不是我们整个一个circle控制的circle是15天是不是我们也是把这样的区块定为15天但是5天5天做一个循环报告对我们15天是因为它有可能的潜伏期是所以我们定15天但是我们每5天做一个观察是那观察到"},{"start":6477.843,"end":6506.715,"text":"可能第二個五天的時候如果說我們的疫調有更完整的疫調它沒有對外擴散的風險的時候那我們也許有機會先做部分的解除或是全部的解除這個我們後續才能夠判斷對 因為我們必須如果當我們資訊公開的話然後我們把整個位階拉高然後不斷的一個區段一個區段跟民眾報告跟我們的租资產業報告我相信大家才會安心"},{"start":6507.375,"end":6524.668,"text":"尤其這一段時間我相信這樣的訊息傳出在我們的產業在我們的食的安全大家都是放大眼睛在看所以我覺得部長這個部分是我們的我們一定要給民眾安心的一個責任一定把相關的資訊一定隨時對外說明"},{"start":6526.869,"end":6556.449,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情有兩個環節一個就是為什麼在10月10號發生的時候沒有直接通報而且在10月14號沒有去採樣到了10月20才做採樣把整個檢體送中央這個一定要查而且這個絕對是未來我們給各縣市的一個非常好的一個樣板跟警惕大家不能再犯"},{"start":6557.79,"end":6584.951,"text":"這個一件事就已經搞得這樣子人仰馬翻大家嚇死了所以這個是絕對不能再犯這是一個問題第二個問題是我們整個資訊公開透明把我們整個足跡這個有問題的豬支廠它相關的足跡整個把它疫調的清清楚楚報告所有的人民我相信人民就會安心謝謝"},{"start":6589.781,"end":6594.679,"text":"谢谢接下来我们请张琪凯委员请做寻答"},{"start":6619.436,"end":6643.647,"text":"請博定我們請部長文豪博定先替記者朋友問你一個他們剛剛一直追著要問你的最近這幾年夾帶疫區的那個豬肉進來了大概有好幾百件對不對現在這部分的那個邊境管制會加強嗎我想"},{"start":6645.526,"end":6663.963,"text":"那個邊境的管制我們只有越來越精進越來越強度越來越強沒有從應該108年開始一直到現在7年間我們的作為沒有降低成績而且我們的精進的作為也越來越高所以我們在相關的這些裁罰的部分"},{"start":6665.964,"end":6684.01,"text":"也有一定的數量但是整體來看從國外進來的違法的部分有越來越少的趨勢表示說我們的宣導特別是國人從國外帶進來的這些豬肉也越來越少的趨勢現在就是因為非洲除了這個期待嘛會不會因為這樣子更加嚴有沒有做什麼緊急的措施"},{"start":6685.05,"end":6713.821,"text":"對 我想我們整個的邊境的一個管制第一個就是旅客帶過來的這些手提行李 後送行李對 然後我們這個手提行李是100%然後我們特別針對高風險區像有一些有39國已經發生非洲豬瘟的國家我們就強制的100%那相對的我們做國際的郵包還有後面的走私的部分所以我們這是跨部會的一個聯防的部分是防堵我們的邊境作為"},{"start":6714.321,"end":6742.756,"text":"加嚴防堵對不對對 一定 我們一定會加嚴我們來談這個這次這個非洲豬瘟這個事情一方面是因為症狀非典嘛 對不對而且沒有資訊很有限所以才這個判定才會失準那專家寫者現在提的就是說就是事前提早知道這個非常重要所以他們提醒了一個點來 我們看一下就是我們台灣曾經研發非洲豬瘟的快篩"},{"start":6743.655,"end":6765.307,"text":"這是全世界唯二亞洲第一而且獲得國際上世界動物衛生組織OIE參考實驗室的這個認證保定 它有幾個優點它有幾個優點 現在先生就在提醒你就要提早知道它有狀況嘛 對不對它的潛伏期就可以驗了活豬的時候"},{"start":6767.83,"end":6784.104,"text":"活株的時候潛伏期就可以驗了然後第二個他10分鐘就會知道就驗得出來了跟我們當初那個COVID-19那個整個那個測試非常非常的快第三個你就降低這個非洲豬瘟的傳染風險寫者專家提醒這個有可能是我們最近可以派得上用場的嗎"},{"start":6784.944,"end":6812.596,"text":"我跟委員報告這家試驗公司所開發的試劑這邊講到受到國際認可它是送到中國的參考實驗室認證它並沒有向台灣我們台灣有參考實驗室它並沒有來向我們台灣的參考實驗室申請認證的部分有沒有有認證還沒認證這是有啦OIE認可的一個實驗室世界動物衛生組織OIE認可的一個實驗室它的優點我跟你講先者專家提醒的優點是什麼潛伏期就可以驗出來了"},{"start":6813.735,"end":6833.758,"text":"對不對而且他很快嘛就跟十分鐘就知道你這樣就可以降低非洲豬瘟傳染這個風險你看你現在你現在不是說要希望附近的不要擴散出去對不對那你不是盡快比如說附近的幾公里內的全部趕快測有問題進一步去測嘛然後如果全國的可能有症狀的"},{"start":6834.662,"end":6850.109,"text":"會趕快塞啊之前我們不會採用這個因為台灣是清的嘛是乾淨的肺液區但是現在有開始有一些病例的時候我們要用更積極的方式去做這些疫調的過程中然後您剛才講這個方法我會請我們的專業團隊來評估因為某個程度也會擔心"},{"start":6855.351,"end":6866.156,"text":"當你測出來快篩因為快篩的準確度還是有個百分比萬一是有他自己害怕自己就把它撲殺掉了那反而會讓疫調更為不精準所以我想這個由專業團隊他們專家會議去討論"},{"start":6869.613,"end":6895.572,"text":"它這個快篩是專業的它是要抽血您可以要求那個獸醫要在現場所以你剛剛講那個是可以解決的所以我說像這個這樣子的方式我想交由我們的專家團隊去研議說是不是應該用這種方式如果他們建議我們一定會去採行好 OK 這個是很多專家寫者建議的趕快評估一下 好了解然後第二個就是除以這個風險"},{"start":6897.743,"end":6913.868,"text":"現在我們這個養豬除蟻使用就剛剛張家慶張委員問過了8%斜界本身10%他更精準是8%可是非洲最後那個疫情90%都來自於除蟻現在當然有人在罵說為什麼不禁那你現在就是先禁15天對不對"},{"start":6915.706,"end":6936.399,"text":"對 我們的透過我們的潛伏期的15天所以我們本身是以15天為一個我們做疫調的因為現在禁止是斷點然後疫調如果完成了以後我們就會重新的去檢討我們如果要開放那要更好的一個控管的機制"},{"start":6937.619,"end":6964.881,"text":"對 那如果說要禁止那也要有一個大家合理的討論空間要怎麼樣的轉型所以這個部分我想我們會用一個很完整的方案如果完成以後會對外來說明也絕對不是說今天要或不要8%引起90%的這個危險確實要當然 沒有沒有 部長我跟你講就是事後你當然15天之後你要檢討要不要用嘛 對不對那如果要繼續用一定要做到兩件事情第一個 第一個他在爭主要"},{"start":6965.987,"end":6983.28,"text":"我們絕對強烈的控管90度C一個小時一個小時一定要落實對不對這個要檢測第二個我看了環境部的資料他說是不是應該要有個病毒的檢查你做成試藥之前要不要多一道的這個安全的可以測試嗎這很簡單對不對"},{"start":6985.031,"end":7003.068,"text":"你如果要繼續用今天能不能清楚的表達說以後做好病毒檢測我想喔廚餘如果經過真正合格的蒸煮完了以後再進去飼料是安全的那如果說廚餘都要做病毒檢查那表示說我們設計的這一套蒸煮機制是不對的"},{"start":7003.709,"end":7018.839,"text":"現在就是因為你徵組了以後你現在出現漏洞所以90%都來自那邊我跟委員報告現在的來源到底是從哪邊來的現在還在疫調不能說是廚藝我想人員可能的國外的接觸 豬場的接觸都有可能各種可能"},{"start":7020.14,"end":7038.43,"text":"你剛才講嘛那是可能之一嘛除非是可能之一嘛所以你要先禁止這15天嘛對不對那我現在就跟你講除了徵阻要落實之外你要不要多一道安全的措施我想能夠更強力的監管我們一定會做好OK好來最後做幾個建議第一個這次受害的這個產業"},{"start":7041.226,"end":7067.359,"text":"至少有養豬的這個產業鏈對不對然後第二個豬肉的這個加工業還有我們餐飲的觀光業這個衝擊都是非常大的我們請先要趕快做評估而且要盡量去幫他們好不好會 我們會來做評估另外部長我最後要幾個東西你兩個禮拜內給我第一個就是我相信這是全民現在也急著要的就是加速完成這次疑似案件的各項問題的釐清包括是真為"},{"start":7068.82,"end":7096.333,"text":"非洲的這個豬瘟嗎病毒出這個來源到現在在查嘛對不對傳染的方式傳染的來源途徑這是第一點第二個要建置這個病疫病的這個資料庫老實講我們現在是缺了很多啦第三個儘速完成疫調並且要公布喔同時嚴防可能這個病毒擴散到你說髒話來混淆邊啊這些養豬的這個大線那如果不幸不幸疫情真的這個擴大了"},{"start":7098.12,"end":7107.073,"text":"要緊急提出來對農業跟養豬產業有具體的支持政策跟措施那之後我提兩個建議弱品市場以後如果恢復了"},{"start":7109.012,"end":7129.25,"text":"對於豬的這個健康的把關跟強化要有一個明確的說明另外養豬這個產業鏈也要利用這個機率好好調整跟升級好不好我要謝謝委員這五大這個部分我想我們一定也是朝這個方向在做但是我跟委員報告不可能兩個禮拜因為疫調有它的疫調的程序我沒辦法在兩個禮拜就告訴你所有的答案"},{"start":7129.71,"end":7157.917,"text":"所以其他四個可以所以只要疫調疫調那一塊只要疫調完成了以後因為這是全部的一個作為嘛只要疫調我們疫調每一天都會公布我們的進度然後最後有一個比較清楚的時候我們一定第一時間把相關的資料提供給委員疫調完成就要儘快給他好不好對 我們不會沒有辦法兩個但是疫調完成我們第一時間一定會讓經濟委員會還有委員所有委員知道我們共同共同努力啦是希望把這件事情了解好 謝謝謝謝委員守護我們人民的這個健康"},{"start":7158.297,"end":7159.458,"text":"讓這個整個養豬產業不要受到衝擊我們一起來努力謝謝好 謝謝好 請楊瓊英 楊維恩維恩好"},{"start":7195.449,"end":7197.111,"text":"謝謝主席我再請部長請部長"},{"start":7205.926,"end":7222.464,"text":"部长 透过您早上的说明跟关务署的说明以及我们所有的委员大家的提问跟沟通跟你的回复我希望的排定今天的议程就是希望让我们的国人"},{"start":7223.024,"end":7243.833,"text":"能夠安心下來而且也知道政府的方向是什麼不要一直的揣測讓民眾恐慌這是本席今天之所以排定這一個國人大家非常關心的這個議題也謝謝委員讓我們農業部有這個機會透過這樣的一個場合跟外界做說明也跟委員做報告"},{"start":7244.733,"end":7259.372,"text":"非常感謝那你也辛苦了那接下來本席要說的是今年五月份我們台灣才剛獲世界動物衛生組織認定為朱溫飛一國那成為亞洲一同"},{"start":7260.613,"end":7284.553,"text":"這個唯一的可以同時來取得傳統豬瘟口蹄疫跟非洲豬瘟三大豬變非疫國這個是我們一直在努力的而且已經大陣但是沒有想到在這個四個月之後那10月10號發生了養豬場出現了豬隻異常死亡的這個情況"},{"start":7285.794,"end":7297.341,"text":"那麼到20號有發現到117隻的豬隻的這些現象所以本席首先也就是說在發生時間的時候當我們在21號確認為非洲豬瘟陽性並採取撲殺跟禁運的這個措施"},{"start":7307.327,"end":7321.077,"text":"那也顯示說在整個的過程當中我們到底到目前為止當然似乎是可確定是非洲竹瘟但是還是要經過科學的一個證據最後確認"},{"start":7323.098,"end":7339.56,"text":"在这个情况当中我们也采取了一些措施包括中央的措施地方台中市政府的措施一直大家中央地方合作来努力那目前的情况是如何呢请做说明"},{"start":7340.885,"end":7369.374,"text":"我想我們特別是在昨天開始成立台東前進應變所那在應變所裡面特別也邀請了台東市政府的農業局的環保局的人員就是說在這個情況的疫調的過程中一定是中央跟地方通力合作的那也感謝台東市政府的配合還有相關的單位的配合包括其他部會那我們希望說這個疫調能夠更清楚的釐清的時候找出這個來源找出這個可能的破口那這樣的話以後我們才有機會更精進"},{"start":7371.787,"end":7399.682,"text":"那这个呢就是中央地方大家一起来努力本席非常的希望当国人有所质疑隐忧的时候我们政府不管是地方政府中央政府都有义务要让民众放心也让民众可以在有的讯息当中能够让民众了解这是非常重要所以在目前为止我们看到也就是说"},{"start":7400.763,"end":7421.253,"text":"不管是媒體報導也就是說非典型的病徵到底是不是真的有所謂的非典型病徵我想這個用專業的角度我想請專業人員來回覆會比較恰當是來請做說明報告委員因為他所謂非典型病徵就是因為"},{"start":7421.963,"end":7445.005,"text":"他的那個不是說他從他那個外觀還有他初步的那個獸醫師的診斷他是以那個放線桿菌兇末肺炎那這個他會有一樣的症狀所以獸醫師就用這樣的方式去做治療所以在治療過程中他會觀察一個時間讓他確定說他"},{"start":7447.347,"end":7454.842,"text":"預後結果如何所以後續如果不好那防疫單位他們就會去進一步檢驗"},{"start":7456.675,"end":7477.054,"text":"這個部長我們聽到這樣子的一個說明也就是說萬一我們幾乎確認他大概是非洲豬瘟大概但是要等最後科學的證據但是一個問題也就是沉入剛剛專家所說的非典型的病態未來我們要怎麼樣防範"},{"start":7478.191,"end":7497.209,"text":"未来我们怎么方法是这个部分就是说如果他是有非典型的症状的时候那即使是非典型的症状不同的病所产生的病征可能还可以更细致的去做做一些病征的确认所以这个部分我想防炎署跟我们的受医院也会针对这个部分"},{"start":7497.95,"end":7521.595,"text":"有一個比較好的一個所謂的SOP讓第一線的獸醫師能夠更清楚的去做判試然後寧願料敵從寬有疑似的時候像類似這個有疑似的時候應該同時去做採檢這樣的話才能夠讓我們在第一時間更早發現我想我要謝謝部長也就是剛剛所做的說明"},{"start":7522.679,"end":7544.867,"text":"我們要怎麼樣在這一次的這個樣態裡頭我們的精進方案就誠如剛剛部長您所說的非典型的症狀那我們的SOP流程要怎麼樣可以更精進讓第一線的人在採取的時候可以更多元而且"},{"start":7545.487,"end":7563.629,"text":"能夠更廣泛的這個圍堵那這個本席也希望去研擬這個方案然後告訴執行者告訴縣市政府告訴社會大眾這個你認同這樣的方向吧我非常認同而且我們覺得這些精進作為也是重要的一環"},{"start":7564.71,"end":7578.801,"text":"對好接下來本席也要請教關務署跟農業部那因為到底議員是從哪裡來我相信部長你也說過各種的這個方向但"},{"start":7579.741,"end":7608.397,"text":"這個非洲豬如果萬一真的百分之百是了現在99點多是那真的是了我們知道非洲豬瘟它不可能是在我們本土自己產生那就是境外那在這樣的情況之下剛剛關務署也特別說了不管是你這個X光機啊或者是大家說的這個警犬那這一些防疫犬都必須要加強有這個方案"},{"start":7608.937,"end":7634.094,"text":"那這樣的一個情況我們現在到底議員從哪裡來就你早上所說明的那現在有沒有更可以明確的方向因為現在還沒辦法確定因為疫調包括動物包括人特別是那個疫場的人是不是有曾經出國到其他的國家那個疫場是不是有曾經"},{"start":7635.555,"end":7652.82,"text":"就是私自買進一些可能被遺漏的被X光線遺漏的這些可能的肉品所以這個東西就是可能是人可能是動物然後我們還要做疫調那疫調完了以後我們才能夠確定哪個可能是POCO我們才會做更精進的作為"},{"start":7653.24,"end":7680.878,"text":"我想國人都希望破口到底是怎麼樣我們大家都希望知道那政府也必須要跨部會去討論去研議那我想所有的國人都希望知道破口到底是在哪裡我們才能夠好好的去防範這是很重要因為本席認為當疫這個豬瘟發生的時候我們應該要好好的全力的來這個檢疫"},{"start":7682.819,"end":7702.186,"text":"防疫以及接下來本席要討論的產銷的一個條件因為這不只是這一個億而是關係著我們千億以上的產業也就本席剛開始開會的時候我特別提出這是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以因此本席要強調是說"},{"start":7703.686,"end":7726.044,"text":"在整個國家的這個邊境線必須要檢討跟加強剛剛我們已經討論過你也同意我們要怎麼樣阻絕可能的疫情來擴散這是民眾需要知道的在防檢的每一個角落每一個環節要怎麼樣好好的去落實那所以包括了關務署這邊我也勿請必須要好好的"},{"start":7729.506,"end":7752.673,"text":"去檢討怎麼樣去加強這個SOP流程跟進進那這個是我們現在要聽的我相信所有的人都知道經濟委員會每一個成員都全力的在支持我們的農業支持農業部那尤其是我們的農民我們經濟委員會都全力的在支持所以我也希望在"},{"start":7753.959,"end":7780.475,"text":"一定要鞏固好守住我們的臺灣豬這個是一定非常的重要委長 部長你的方向也是如此吧對 所以我們才會斷然的就是在第一時間我就決定全國性的禁載禁運還有除以養豬停止除以養豬這個是可能傳播的熱戀所以我們把它斷掉了以後傳播電斷掉以後我們才能夠精準的找出那個案場的來源對"},{"start":7782.377,"end":7794.628,"text":"對 所以一定要好好的守住我們的臺灣豬這是非常重要是因此我們第二期的這個養豬計畫您現在的進度送到行政院了嗎"},{"start":7795.649,"end":7823.249,"text":"我们已经送到行政院了然后我们我所了解大概这一两天应该就会合了但是这一两天合不是因为非洲租金有产生这个状况才合因为大家都一直在追踪因为要守住我们台湾租的产业那你预计应该下个礼拜会出来我相信这个礼拜应该就能够因为整个预算是经过立法院同意动之的但是因为计划没合就主要是计划没合定我们在动之会比较困扰"},{"start":7824.213,"end":7836.941,"text":"所以一定要趕快合會 我們一定會預計下個禮拜會出來我想這個禮拜應該就有機會能夠獲得訪問一定要好好加油守住我們的台灣豬謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請邱志維委員請做詢答"},{"start":7875.995,"end":7897.366,"text":"謝謝主席 又請陳部長好 我們再請陳部長 謝謝我們到謝玉鳳委員這個詢答結束 我們休息三分鐘謝謝部長 這個非洲豬瘟防疫勢同作戰是絕對不能匆匆忙忙一定要戒慎恐懼 如臨大敵"},{"start":7899.831,"end":7926.462,"text":"不管是房間署或者是官務署因為這個影響到整個產業鏈影響到甚至國內生產毛耳都會受到很大的影響國際新運也受到影響那東亞國家裡面是日本跟台灣之前是唯一二的非豬瘟非豬瘟這個疫區那日本的做法你們知道日本的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7927.864,"end":7942.864,"text":"你說哪一方面日本有沒有出於養豬日本我所了解應該是沒有出於養豬的方式日本有沒有出於養豬有沒有為什麼日本有還是有比例是多少呢比例是多少"},{"start":7943.331,"end":7965.817,"text":"日本目前它是把那個廚餘做成飼料將飼料中跟我們廚餘養豬不一樣嘛我們廚餘加熱之後消毒之後就可以去養豬嘛它不是它把廚餘製作成飼料所以就沒有透過廚餘去病毒傳染的問題嘛對不對所以日本的做法你可以去學習了解廚餘你還可以再利用變成飼料嘛"},{"start":7967.059,"end":7995.834,"text":"那我們這一次沒有用廚餘直接廚餘加熱之後但難免還是有病毒會產生嘛是所以我們為了用廚餘去養殖佔了百分之八左右對不對我們全國大概有五千多場五千五百五十二場然後四百三十五場大概百分之八那其中幾個縣市不是每個縣市都有的新北 台北 台中 台北 桃園也有台中也有 屏東屏東也有 對所以其中幾個縣市那我們當然要考慮到日本可以做到這一點"},{"start":7996.86,"end":8007.821,"text":"我們應該跟日本人學習而且他們不需要像我們比較繁瑣的邊境檢查是對不對我們只要出國回來我們要經過這個廣際再一次的這個鎖定心理你都要安檢對不對是"},{"start":8009.813,"end":8034.193,"text":"所以這個部分不確定是從國外帶回來的所提醒你帶的弄製品不能確定對但是我們還是要做為什麼要做呢因為我們還是用廚餘去養豬嘛是所以是不是考慮到未來的方向我建議是不是可以思考一下你要制定一個落日條款歸年一來我們廚餘養豬要慢慢退場怎麼樣去輔導把這個廚餘轉換成飼料你不做也夠那轉對做也夠啊"},{"start":8040.14,"end":8044.926,"text":"那麼你有做不到嗎而且我們又可以節省很多這個安檢的人力跟預算嘛"},{"start":8045.646,"end":8071.302,"text":"了解 我想我認同委員的說法就是說我們的廚藝養豬一定要做一些轉型那從過去108年到現在它已經降到435 本來1000多場所以這個轉型我們希望力道更加強然後第二個部分就像您說的這些廚藝我們更強化去把它做再利用變成飼料化以後那這樣的話那個風險就更低了現在可以立即啟動嗎我覺得馬上可以立即確認我想"},{"start":8075.544,"end":8104.813,"text":"如果這個技術有這個技術能夠用專利的授權的方式我都願意用授權的方式直接導入日本已經行之有年了對不對所以他們為什麼能夠確保現在不是變成東亞唯一的非洲瘟疫區我想我們會後我會去成立一個團隊就是針對日本的這個技術是不是可以直接導入到國內因為處理的樣態可能不一樣這個我想我們請專家團隊你現在做的就是治標跟這個損害管控是"},{"start":8105.513,"end":8119.288,"text":"你要治本一定要用到廚餘變成飼料化就沒有所謂這個傳染的問題我想我們立即去啟動這樣的一個研究那你要制定一個中短中長期的情況你要有一個落日條款你要讓所有目前正在廚餘養豬的435場知道說政府的政策什麼時候要退場不能再用廚餘養豬因為廚餘要轉化成"},{"start":8126.976,"end":8145.512,"text":"這個飼料我了解我想我們在後續的滾動檢查一定會訂出一個比較明確的逐步的這樣子有沒有機會轉型時間表要出來時間表我想我們會時間表要出來就是你要三年之內這個除去養豬要退場我們了解你要讓這個葉子可以有時間去緩衝去因應我知道 對"},{"start":8147.313,"end":8174.052,"text":"另外這個整體的防疫策略當然需要地方政府跟中央政府來合作那你整個疫情的採檢這個通報這個當然有些新生物的這個相關的能力不一定完全相同那你目前對地方查驗回報的這些相關的指引相關的制度有沒有考慮到從這次事件來看有沒有檢討的必要我想每一個制度裡面我們特別是從這次疫調裡面可能有一些"},{"start":8175.385,"end":8194.418,"text":"需要精進的地方就包括10月10號他們看到一些非典型的症狀但是如果說類似非周溫的非典型症狀也許我們在第一時間就可以採檢是啊 你要地方採驗回報你們現在有沒有一致性的指引對有沒有一致性的指引我們有相關的指引每一個地方地方政府一定要按照你的指引來執行喔對"},{"start":8195.599,"end":8213.355,"text":"我們現在是針對從化資廠的監測地方跟中央同時監測化資廠如果異常的時候他就要去關心這個訓護廠我問你有沒有這個指引東西我請教你有沒有這個指引有這個指引有這個指引縣市政府如果沒有按照指引就是縣市政府的責任嘛你確定有這個指引嗎"},{"start":8215.78,"end":8233.012,"text":"你們同仁不要隨便回答一定要確定有這個指引各縣市政府一定要按照這個指引來執行相關的防疫業務報告委員就是我們有對於非洲豬瘟的一些它的疾病的一個特徵有一些注意事項但是沒有那個"},{"start":8234.612,"end":8248.338,"text":"注意事項這是一個善意的提議我覺得指引有一定的要求有一定的強制性所以我建議農業部必須要去建立進出建立地方查驗回報一致性的指引這有一定的強制性那你最注意事項有時候是一些建議"},{"start":8249.639,"end":8278.296,"text":"好 我想我跟委員回應就是說我們現在一些注意事項是針對病症的部分然後相關的就是說如果遇到這個病症他的臨床症狀如果有類似的東西我們會變成一個很明確的指引讓這些地方政府的受益師好不好 我們迅速把這指引建立起來好 是差不多一個月之內把指引通報各縣政府他按照你這指引有相關的規範SOP去執行相關的這個包括抽葉送檢採樣送檢等等通報"},{"start":8279.656,"end":8296.218,"text":"了解我想我們會同步了不會等到疫調結束才會來做我們現在同步就來處理這個議題另外最後一個議題要請教就是防疫安全網很重要要保險的概念保險的概念所以你現在就你用這個事後的這個撲殺補償"},{"start":8298.58,"end":8317.098,"text":"這個救助我覺得這次都是對豬農這個沒有辦法去彌補他們損失如果一旦疫情發生的話有沒有可能建立從防疫安全網的這個計畫裡面用保險的制度來導入這個用日本用歐盟的方式來做這個部長您的看法呢"},{"start":8318.544,"end":8346.521,"text":"我們現在注視死亡保險可是很可惜的就是沒有包含疫病的部分那我覺得我們該注意的還是應該疫病所以這個部分我想我們會從不同面向來增加這個用這種保險的概念去降低農民的一個風險這盡快建立起來好不好這個防疫安全網把保險導入我們會來處理對疫情的掌控或者事後的這個相關的補償是最後半分鐘我想請教一下公務署署長"},{"start":8349.399,"end":8373.079,"text":"這個從中國來的食品裡面啊這個中國來的食品裡面有些用快遞雖然你的這個報告裡面就是這些平台啊你們對平台的管理現在目前做到怎麼樣比如說從這個平台裡面去購買中國的這些包括這個食物啦或者有可能對疫情造成影響這些他們可不可以進來那你們怎麼去查處"},{"start":8374.546,"end":8396.547,"text":"跟委員報告 就這個平台的管理目前我瞭解應該是那個產發署那邊在處理產發署 我來說明一下 是抒發部是抒發部 就是電商平台是抒發部來處理的你看 中國這個網路平台大量販售從寄到台灣這個食品還有一個敏感專線包清關 雙清包稅"},{"start":8400.31,"end":8418.456,"text":"這個變成一個變相走私啊那也變成一個防疫的一個破口這部分應該跨部來協調包括農業部包括這個關務署包括這個你說的採訪署也好或者是抒發部也好聽說這個都買得到耶您了解嗎 那個署長我了解買得到嗎"},{"start":8419.775,"end":8429.162,"text":"可以透過這個平台買得到嗎這個抒發部那邊會 我查過買得到買得到那就變成一個防疫的破口因為你沒有辦法對他檢查"},{"start":8431.886,"end":8451.256,"text":"還是你可以全面對他這個從中國來的郵包這些都可以檢查各位演報告我承諾我在下禮拜還會再開中央應變中心會議我就會把這個議題納進去特別是我們邊境的除了人的手提行李關務組這邊負責那事實上交通部對於郵包的部分他會負責然後同樣做平台也會經過郵遞"},{"start":8452.757,"end":8467.802,"text":"那他有不同的部位在合作我想我會更精進的把這個合作的機制跟他檢查的那個節點我們會把它建立的變成一個就是戒慎恐懼要如臨大事了解要全力以赴謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":8483.151,"end":8484.253,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長我們再請陳部長喂好"},{"start":8493.427,"end":8514.009,"text":"部長 本期上個禮拜才誇獎說我們農業部對非洲豬瘟的努力防疫做得很好獲得世界動物組織認證成為我們亞洲的首個三大豬瘟的非疫區可以重返國際市場一個禮拜而已就破功了心情怎麼樣"},{"start":8516.852,"end":8539.802,"text":"很難過很難過好難過檢討追蹤改善立即保護我們豬農產業的未來這才是重點所以本席要請教部長的就是在去年的時候我們有特別提到那個廚餘的問題當然首要的首當其衝的還是境外因為台灣"},{"start":8541.463,"end":8560.759,"text":"並沒有非洲豬瘟對不對所以今天會發生了但是還沒確定喔你們還要做一個病毒的分析嘛對不對最重要就從境外進來境外進來的話就有防檢署為什麼沒有防檢成功讓這個非洲豬瘟進來這是先決的對不對"},{"start":8563.977,"end":8572.432,"text":"對 杜絕境外杜絕境外是第一杜絕境外是第一那台灣沒有非洲之溫那這個就是從境外進來的是不是是先確定這個問題所以"},{"start":8574.366,"end":8601.777,"text":"我們才會訂定了很多強加強保護這個非洲豬瘟的傳染這個問題加強了7年所以我們每次從國外回來的時候就會拿個一張綠色的卡片有沒有在疫區回來的地方這個我們都做了努力的但是今天發生了發生了趕快就要解決所以在這一家"},{"start":8603.188,"end":8621.743,"text":"台中這一家它的廚餘的問題你們有沒有去開始也在這個疫調當中有去篩檢有去檢疫我想整個疫調裡面包括它的生產環境包括它的廚因為它是自己煮的廚餘經過合格認證的自己煮但是我們也會去調閱所以在98家當中"},{"start":8624.491,"end":8626.614,"text":"許可的我們只有98家 435場435場裡面的98家有許可證的其中之一嗎"},{"start":8633.587,"end":8657.666,"text":"是不是應該每個435場應該每個都是許可的每個都許可 對可是我們可以許可處理這個廚餘的這部分的對 這是環境部要符合環境部的那個檢核再利用的部分那有一些有一些中央珍珠廠它是中央珍珠然後提供給人家所以你們也有電極去抽檢啦對 它是每天在每天在珍珠啦那你每天都"},{"start":8658.586,"end":8684.466,"text":"對 衛務部這邊特別是在珍珠的那個溫度有沒有溫度計都有監控器具去做monitoring以後去處理好 部長我們在2021年10月就開始針對這四養豬隻的在200頭以上的中大型的養豬場才可以用高溫珍珠90度以上才可以用這個廚餘對不對是那其他的199頭以下就沒有了是那但是"},{"start":8685.046,"end":8708.134,"text":"我們在這個廚餘的處理的過程他們載送是屬於自己去載送還是由清潔隊送過去它這個有不同的模式啦那基本上我們不管它的來源是什麼它只要經過90℃一個小時的蒸煮的話它的飼料它的那個廚餘就是安全的就可以餵豬啦這個是一個非常重要的好 那清潔隊載運的這個廚餘是怎麼處理"},{"start":8711.156,"end":8724.194,"text":"這個可能要問環境部會比較清楚那可能各縣市的處理方法也有不一樣的我們桃園的部分的話就會全部送去掩埋堆肥的處理不會送給養豬戶那請問你們的疫調出來這一家的廚藝是怎麼來的"},{"start":8729.431,"end":8754.662,"text":"我想我們在疫調裡面也會針對他的廚餘的來源包括這些人員的這一家 你就回答我這一家的廚餘怎麼來的他自己去載的沒有 還在疫調中我現在沒辦法給你這個答案好 本席就問你請去疫調這家的廚餘是要自己去載回來的還是清潔隊送去的我想我們在疫調的時候所以未來部長"},{"start":8756.141,"end":8777.61,"text":"我們每個縣市都有廚餘的問題都有我們回收廚餘的所以有個各縣市處理方法你都要去追蹤這也是一個破口的問題所以你要去追蹤好不好了解 我想我們針對您剛才的議題我們每天在中央前進應變所這邊如果有得到答案的話我們當天的記者會對外的說明就會說明是"},{"start":8778.951,"end":8804.707,"text":"所以對每個縣市的廚餘你要去追蹤這些廚餘都是到豬場還是是到掩埋場去堆肥做堆肥處理這個你都要了解我想我們會透過要追蹤去了解透過環境部這邊來了解所以你現在目前都沒辦法確定它是非洲豬瘟還是有病毒的分析我想所以盡快你大概什麼時候會公佈應該是非洲豬瘟確認但是因為在"},{"start":8805.868,"end":8820.648,"text":"根據WHOA的規範一定要做病毒的分類不過以現在的證據的掌握應該就是非洲豬瘟但是因為通報的關係我們現在還要做明確確定好不好應該明確確定下來好"},{"start":8821.248,"end":8836.276,"text":"那現在本席想請教的就是我們現在既然發生了第一個要看房檢部分如何境外的會跑進來這個一定要再做一個防堵防堵措施再來的話就出於我想請問部長"},{"start":8838.137,"end":8864.275,"text":"廚餘為什麼當時我們討論的時候你沒有全面禁用你有什麼考量是什麼問題不過我想當年其實因為不同的時代可能有不同的當初有非常多的小廠然後有非常多的這些廚餘小廠199頭都是飼料所以我們那時候的一個非常重要的策略不是說沒有禁止然後就不管它我們在沒有禁止之下但是我們強化我們的廚餘本身的徵屬的監管"},{"start":8865.976,"end":8889.768,"text":"然後小廠的因為他沒有能力做自己的徵組所以我們把200頭以下的是不准用用用廚餘飼養一定要200頭以上的部分所以這個部分就是一個比較強又有力的監管讓廚餘變成一個安全的飼料而不是像外界說的就是沒有這樣子的一個政策就不管他我們還是有做強力的監管所以你還是有在討論是"},{"start":8890.488,"end":8909.127,"text":"你說時代不一樣經過七年強力的加強現在七年也沒有什麼時代不一樣了可是已經發生了那你現在全面禁用廚餘是暫時性還是永久性我們現在是因為為了做疫調我們針對禁止廚餘餵養是做這個怕疫情的擴散的一個斷點"},{"start":8913.752,"end":8934.966,"text":"然後包括豬隻禁運也是一個斷點都是這兩個作為都是為了做疫調然後疫調告一段落以後我們就會來做後續的處理特別是這個潛伏期的15天是一定不能移動的然後不能餵養廚餘但是這個部分我們以5天為觀察的週期所以現在是暫時性的對"},{"start":8935.566,"end":8955.502,"text":"那一吊结束完毕之后的话你会盘整整个状况我们会盘整整个后续的还可不可以用厨余对我们一定是先去做厨余的加强监管然后就算要不要做厨余喂养我们也一定有足够的缓冲期绝对不会说"},{"start":8956.463,"end":8981.89,"text":"今天說了明天就停止那這次是因為疫情的關係部長廚餘的部分跟環保局比較有關但是關聯的又是我們養豬戶的所以你在橫向跟環保局這邊要做好一個溝通廚餘的所有的源頭來源的輸送到哪裡供應到哪裡處理的最終辦法這些你們要互相的來做個溝通來處理好不好"},{"start":8983.39,"end":9007.26,"text":"你們都息息相關 最重要是跟我們的產業溝通像桃園 您桃園那邊也是一個非常重要的我們桃園沒有化製廠全台灣有九個化製廠桃園本身用廚藝的也不少排名在第三我知道 所以我跟部長提醒說桃園沒有化製廠沒有化製廠 你知道我們怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":9009.693,"end":9028.472,"text":"去跟那個養豬協會請他們用車輛人力再去雲林處理我們每年要花多少錢你知道嗎我們全台灣有九個化智場對我知道桃園沒有啊所以不同的地方可以互相治癒這個也是部長你未來要檢討的一個最重要的因素好不好"},{"start":9029.173,"end":9047.243,"text":"我們會加強單一場內用生物處理機來處理這樣的話就是也減少了所以部長 本市在這邊要求的就是立即要查明感染的源頭全面檢討邊境的檢疫跟廚餘的養豬戶的這個制度針對於受損的養豬戶我們要啟動專案補償的機制守住我們台灣的養豬產業好不好好 我們朝這個目標來努力謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9059.775,"end":9073.141,"text":"接下來我們請謝依鳳委員請做詢答好 謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們再請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":9082.11,"end":9095.936,"text":"我想請問一下像這一次的這個養豬場所發生的問題那有沒有展開回溯性的調查那這份報告什麼時候可以公佈"},{"start":9096.874,"end":9126.334,"text":"我想我們從21號發現了以後我們第一時間就是將這個廠所有的移動管制然後全面鋪砂然後開始我們就從周圍的3公里還有它的直接的關聯廠去做調查然後接下來就是這輛車輛本身移動的關聯廠所以我們啟動正式的調查那正式的調查它需要一些時間但是我們每一天在台中前進指揮前進應變所這邊每一天會對外公開說明我們的進度"},{"start":9127.332,"end":9150.253,"text":"那你还是没讲啊对啊三公里啊还有未来可能对于全国各县市都要展开调查吗是不是对我们第一我们同时就是启动台东市的疫调然后台东市以外的全国的租场的第一个就是它的本身的租资的健康度的回报跟它的一个关注所以我们是同时启动"},{"start":9151.55,"end":9177.595,"text":"比較強度比較強的台東市的應變然後還有其他縣市的那相關的調查什麼時候可以公佈所以我剛才說的這個疫調有它的時間我現在沒辦法講說一定多久可以完成但是我們是希望在這個潛伏期的15天之內能夠完成15天那就是月底15天那5天為一個單位我希望說台東市的這個基本的疫調能夠在5天之內能夠完成"},{"start":9178.106,"end":9206.887,"text":"就是五天之內對 海東市這個部分是25號嗎大概我是昨天他們去前進指揮所我是希望說五天之內能夠完成因為他們不會有假日的是昨天的五天對等於下禮拜一囉大概下禮拜一禮拜二這樣子但是我們每天都會公告我們的進度因為疫調還有可能又追到其他的源頭所以你剛才說的有可能就是其他委員在質詢的你覺得有可能它的原因不是來自於廚餘是不是"},{"start":9207.467,"end":9227.57,"text":"我说非洲猪瘟的传播本身当然厨余是一个原因但是人员的如果说你进到国外的这些养猪场然后可能带过来的然后也有可能你其他的食物来源不是经过厨余的来源带回来因为如果那个场有其他的这些外籍的"},{"start":9228.888,"end":9256.883,"text":"我不是就是外籍去国外买东西好了我们不一定是外籍就是国外买东西回来那也可能不小心吃一吃以后就丢到自己家里去都有可能啦所以这些可能在疫调没有完成之前我们不能断定说它一定是人员接触一定是厨医或一定是家里买东西自己乱丢造成的我们没有办法判断但是那个病毒的分离报告是不是已经出来了大概分离报告大概两个礼拜还没出来吗还没有出来"},{"start":9258.8,"end":9281.062,"text":"我怎麼那為什麼我有定序我們這樣子我們先用核酸病毒的核酸檢測是陽性然後接下來我們會做這個核酸的一個定序那定序完了以後其實應該是確認的但是因為我們台灣是首例那是首例的國家的話他還要做一個動作就是將這個病毒做分類"},{"start":9282.603,"end":9303.689,"text":"分離跟分類那才能夠正式的通報所以這個部分就是在分離需要兩個禮拜所以我們是用最強的用把它已經是其實就是非洲豬瘟只是在通報上還需要一些那病毒株呢是從哪裡來的這個還要再做分離以後是不是從越南還要定序現在定序還在繼續定序是越南嗎"},{"start":9305.27,"end":9334.427,"text":"刚才有讲可能是中国可能是东南亚然后一部分之间所以我们现在完全定序以后才能做完整的比对定序还在执行吗所以定序也要两个礼拜不确定是来自于东南亚还是因为非洲株的病毒高达180K所以它需要很多时间去完成定序那我目前已经知道的是大部分的序列都来自第二基因型那第二基因型就是目前广为世界流传的病毒株的基因型不一定来自越南"},{"start":9334.98,"end":9351.65,"text":"不一定是來自於越南是不是好那所以定序要兩個禮拜以後才會出來好那就是下下禮拜囉下禮拜一是疫調然後下下禮拜是病毒株的定序是不是"},{"start":9352.694,"end":9379.983,"text":"大概是這樣子下禮拜一是大概台中市的部分我們希望有個初步的結果大概是這樣因為疫調有它的有它的嚴謹度跟詳細度啦好那我還要再一次請教喔就是關於廚餘養豬的問題喔那廚餘養豬是為什麼當初2018年有這樣子爭議的時候不馬上的禁止是因為"},{"start":9381.758,"end":9398.885,"text":"沒有辦法處理廚餘的問題嗎是不是我想當初當初做這樣的一個政策最後政策的一個決定一定有他當時的一個考量那是不是沒有辦法處理廚餘我想可能是一個原因就是處理的量推到我們現在你有沒有辦法處理廚餘"},{"start":9399.525,"end":9408.391,"text":"那我想喔從108年到現在其實養廚用廚餘養豬的戶數已經降到430幾435場本來1000多場變成降到435這就是當初108年的時候雖然說我們沒有禁止但是我們積極輔導他轉型那同時我們去強化那個廚餘的徵主的條件跟他的嚴苛的一個監管那這樣子的話只要確認這個這個是"},{"start":9428.055,"end":9455.22,"text":"那農業部有沒有去跟環保有沒有跟環境部了解到底廚餘有沒有辦法處理我們全台灣所有的廚餘有沒有辦法處理它的廚餘本身它有不同的像它可以做一般的飼料然後進到廚餘養生處但是現在目前大概65%大概是進到廚餘的系統然後還有一些生殖的部分所以剛才因為委員提到我們如果把廚餘先做成飼料再餵豬也是一個很好的方法"},{"start":9455.821,"end":9468.562,"text":"所以我想除以養豬絕對不是罪魁禍首但是我們要讓除以養豬能夠安心的養豬牠的飼料是安全的這是我們的目標"},{"start":9470.083,"end":9496.989,"text":"好 我希望我們能夠緊述的調查做疫調的相關調查讓所有的養豬場都能夠安心到底真正的來源是什麼那以及病毒株的來源是從何而來那對於未來就是說相關的邊境的檢查也好那才有辦法進行確實我想要順便問一下我們關務署"},{"start":9501.7,"end":9527.588,"text":"請問一下我想請問一下現在我們的出口今年的出口的數字是怎麼樣是說我們到目前為止整年的一個出口據我瞭解應該都還維持還不錯的一個成績是不是有33%的我看有33%的成長是不是我看你們關務署的數字"},{"start":9528.692,"end":9545.11,"text":"抱歉委員我沒有掌握這個數字是不是容我查證之後再跟您回報那明年咧我想要知道明年的數字明年出口的一個數字會不會下降抱歉委員這可能我還是要請教專家之後我再來跟您回覆你們都沒有做預估喔"},{"start":9546.331,"end":9568.886,"text":"你們都沒做預估喔?官務署這邊我是沒有對啊 你們不都會做預估嗎?你們財政部不都會做預估嗎?財政部那邊會做預估你們都會做預估啊主總那邊會做預估啦包括經濟成長率等等好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9929.535,"end":9948.34,"text":"謝謝我們現在繼續開會請陳昌明委員陳昌明委員陳昌明委員不在現場我們請參議委員請做詢答謝謝主席那是不是有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":9958.762,"end":9964.977,"text":"部長今天大家真的為了這個非洲豬瘟台中無期廠這件事情人心惶惶"},{"start":9966.141,"end":9992.655,"text":"那我想再跟部長確認因為早上很多委員在質詢的時候有講到說那現在禁運禁宅以及這個廚餘的一個管制的一個期間那我們這樣大概會用幾天的時間我跟委員報告就是我們現在所實施的比較積極的兩個做法一個是全國性的禁運禁宅及禁止廚餘養豬那這個考量都是為了做比較完整的疫調"},{"start":9995.075,"end":10015.462,"text":"讓這個傳播鏈不會因為其他的因素而擴散所以我們根據我們的這些潛伏期的規定是15天所以我們就是定15天但是在15天之內我們會用5天為一個週期來做觀察包括我們台東市的這些關聯性的養豬場我們希望5天之內就能夠有一些初步的結果"},{"start":10015.982,"end":10037.625,"text":"那我們在不同的五天的觀察期如果說他的情況是可被控制的那相對的我們可能對於其他縣市某個程度我們會開始逐步的去開放這個部分或者全部的開放所以原則是15天但是以五天為周期去看接下來疫調的一個狀況那所以現在已經進行全面性的疫調了嗎"},{"start":10038.566,"end":10067.43,"text":"對 現在已經分兩個層次一個層次是針對台東市的疫調觀念場的疫調是最嚴謹的然後另外一個是台東市以外的這些養豬場那本身我們也是透過中央應變中心各縣市的這些防疫的人員都會到豬場去不管是透過電話訪視或是現場訪視去了解豬隻的健康狀況那相對的這個部分我想我們會定期的去讓這些階段性的工作成果"},{"start":10069.771,"end":10078.336,"text":"這個對外的一個說明那部長我想要問一下因為現在大家國人還是對於這一次的這個台中這個無期這個案場這個養豬場"},{"start":10081.826,"end":10108.013,"text":"整個時序上大家還是充滿著疑惑從10月10號這個這頂開始有出現死亡然後他們當時他們是把他懷疑是感染的是叫做什麼兇魔肺炎他們把他認定是兇魔肺炎所以在10月10號的時候並沒有去做全面的一個採樣跟監控是這樣的嗎"},{"start":10111.448,"end":10117.569,"text":"根據我們從那個台東市的那個動保處的人員他所陳述的的確是這樣的方式"},{"start":10118.584,"end":10135.432,"text":"所以10月10號 照理10月10號出現死亡的時候應該應該照例有做採樣 我就比較早知道 不過看起來是沒有因為他們可能就是說 認定可能是別種的病那我想要問10月10號到後來10月21號我們採到檢體這段期間這張有出痕嗎?這張有出痕嗎?"},{"start":10145.657,"end":10167.57,"text":"這段時間應該有出租13號他有出租28隻到大安的肉品市場大安肉品市場對台中市的大安肉品市場喔喔台中的大安肉品市場13號還有出28隻對不過這28隻進到肉品市場以外他一定會照我們的"},{"start":10169.269,"end":10183.38,"text":"那個程序 圖前會去觀察動物的樣態圖後會做 獸醫師會解剖以後有沒有去看他的一個內臟的部分是不是有病徵他都安全了13號根本在全夫妻啊因為後來你們去檢測你們在21號檢測的時候就是你們的每一個檢體定義每一個檢體都有陽性嘛 會做主因陽性嘛 對不對21號後"},{"start":10197.091,"end":10199.113,"text":"21號後你們開始採樣後21號的時候我們採樣完了是兩頭豬八個檢體是陽性然後我們當天開應變會議以後馬上再去現場採三頭豬15個樣品所以這個五頭豬"},{"start":10216.847,"end":10234.999,"text":"都有驗到陽性23個樣品全部都在陽性這樣比例來講是百分百喔都是發病然後其他的全部都撲殺全部都撲殺還是要跟委員說明因為即使他有出租到大安肉品市場他的圖前跟圖後的檢查都是"},{"start":10235.879,"end":10251.991,"text":"就是沒有症狀的部分然後更重要的是這些豬肉它本身它就算有這些非洲豬瘟它不會人吃的是沒有問題的而且這個病毒不會人傳人柏定你是這樣說的不對啦我感覺以這個時序來講10月10號已經發現死亡縱使他們懷疑是別種的病然後他們在用藥以10月13日出20百劑"},{"start":10263.78,"end":10287.952,"text":"出了28隻豬到後端市場這個時候是不是潛伏期 不知道 已經很可怕了那10月14號台中市凍飽處前往訪視然後也沒有採樣10月14號發現異常的死亡到底13號跟14號就短短的一天內發生什麼事情13號還有辦法28隻豬出到市場14號去就說異常死亡"},{"start":10294.076,"end":10320.929,"text":"那有沒有可能異常死亡是在提早就發生了11號就發生了 12號就發生了我們在整個的處理過程中我們調了那個畫質的資料大概他總共有5天的有異常的死亡的一個現象那5天都有就對了對 透過畫質場的監控的部分但是在現場上面來講因為他有特約收益師所以我們這個部分還要做詳細的疫調"},{"start":10322.21,"end":10329.597,"text":"我感覺這個也是要做一個疫調的一個重點因為這28隻豬牠跑到市場如果你們以後端來看我們在21號我們農業部開始採樣檢查後總共驗了5隻豬然後你說用了差不多超過15個採樣15個採樣全部是陽性"},{"start":10345.291,"end":10369.802,"text":"那推論起來就是他整場感染嘛那如果整場感染的話13號處理那些地下有危險嗎這我們不知道這有可能變成一個破口部長要正視這個狀況對我們就是因為因為現在的時序大概都是由台中市動保處的人員做一個說明的部分但是說明只是只是動保處的人員說明我們還要去問事主"},{"start":10370.282,"end":10379.972,"text":"那事主是不是其實已經知道而隱匿不報那是更嚴重的事情說實在我就是要說隱匿不報啦所以這個部分我們要透過疫調我就是要感覺這樣因為10號他就開始有懷疑啊14號東寶祝去也還沒採樣不知道這中他就出事了"},{"start":10388.939,"end":10400.51,"text":"我覺得這樣要查好情策對 這個才是我們疫調的一個重點我們一定是完成疫調以後會如實的對外公開他出到了市場之後市場後端的一個狀況這個也應該要掌握"},{"start":10402.469,"end":10423.366,"text":"好 這個我們來了解因為以家裡十倍28隻你說到了台中後端的市場對 我想委員意思是說到了大安市場的後端的一個流處我想我們也可以來追蹤最可能也要追蹤因為這個事情非同小可所以說朱文他會整個把我們這幾年我們努力的這個全部打破掉"},{"start":10423.846,"end":10446.012,"text":"那最後我再問一下啦現在說台中是沒辦法配合火化這一些應該要火化的豬那這問題是怎樣我想我們昨天就遇到兩個問題就是有化智場的縣市他就不允許部分的縣市不允許其他縣市進到化智場那這樣的話會造成就是說一般的一般正常的病死豬"},{"start":10446.932,"end":10463.407,"text":"沒有進到化資廠就亂丟啦然後第二個部分就是台東市的部分因為掩埋有掩埋的規範但是掩埋也不是最好的方式所以我們昨天協調台東市政府所以保證你是注定要要火化啦要火化所以我們要火化你就接入嘛對我們協調了那個什麼協調了台東市環保局跟農業處這邊就是進到火化"},{"start":10469.432,"end":10470.933,"text":"我們會盡可能協助他們我們會來協助我們中央我們來協助"},{"start":10495.914,"end":10502.219,"text":"那就是火化啦 不要讓他們說就要掩埋啦現在大家聽到掩埋 新來的都開始都去啊就覺得說 喔啊這掩埋的會怎樣 會被人家看處理嗎所以我們會來處理 我們就大家一起做沒關係啦我們會來協助 就是就完成把它全部燒掉 就像你主張的這樣好不好這件事一定要貫徹 好不好 部長 這次"},{"start":10519.133,"end":10537.986,"text":"每一個時間都是黃金時刻 我覺得一定要該做的動作都要把它做到因為剛才講的這些東西 我們在中央應變中心都有正式的決議那因為依照相關的規定 中央應變中心的一個決議地方政府是應該要配合的啦 當然啦所以我們會來做溝通的 他們要配合 你們有時該 強制就強制啦好 了解 好 OK 好好 謝謝接下來我們請陳佩瑜委員請做詢答"},{"start":10553.601,"end":10559.727,"text":"好謝謝主席部長要不要先喝一口水主席給他喝一口好那有請部長我們請部長好謝謝主席"},{"start":10573.406,"end":10593.661,"text":"部長辛苦了從昨天中央成立這個前進緊急應變所到今天為止我相信你們在第一線已經處理了非常多狀況但是今天立法院立即召開這個會議討論我覺得很好但是我也想要問部長目前為止大家都在問中央必須要做的事情但部長我要問根據我們花蓮縣光復鄉救災的經驗我要問"},{"start":10596.323,"end":10619.637,"text":"請問地方政府該做什麼事情可不可以請部長這邊幫我們說明到底所謂中央地方分工落實是如何落實謝謝我只要聽地方的部分我想地方的部分就是相關的這些這些畜牧場的部分至於地方政府要負責去訪視如果發現到一些異常狀況的時候地方政府一定要去訪視那中央會做必要的一個協助"},{"start":10620.814,"end":10640.276,"text":"我是指現在所謂緊急應變的這個部分緊急應變的部分也是一樣就是說相關的疫調的部分其實也是地方政府要做但是因為這次緊急狀況我們是前進指揮所是來協助因為疫調可能會發生不同的狀況然後必要的時候可能是由中央去做跨部會的一個資源來協助"},{"start":10641.297,"end":10661.259,"text":"好 謝謝部長說得很清楚疫調的部分原來在相關法規裡面規定是要地方政府承擔但因為這件事情事涉緊急而且我們也不確定地方能不能做得夠好所以我們中央緊急成立應變所然後中央跨部會的積極協助地方政府以上我說的對嗎"},{"start":10662.2,"end":10684.247,"text":"是這樣子的如果是這樣我們回過來看到底法規範給了中央跟地方哪些工具尤其是今天早上非常多委員在問到廚餘的部分很多區域委員可能對於相關的法規範因為事情太緊急了還沒有搞清楚部長我們辦公室整理我跟你再次確定到底廚餘養豬這件事情在台灣的法規範目前的規定其實有說得非常的清楚一"},{"start":10685.648,"end":10701.309,"text":"200頭以上的養豬場可以例外開放二這個開放必須建立在縣市政府核准在利用是也就是決定我的縣市政府可不可以用這件事情不是你農業部管的是地方縣市政府決定可不可以用對不對對"},{"start":10702.19,"end":10724.299,"text":"所以才會出現有雲林的委員說雲林沒有用廚餘養豬而其他縣市有而目前現在案發的這個廠在台中也就是我可不可以這麼說台中市政府他站在主管機關他核准當地的養豬廠符合情況的條件下可以再利用這個廚餘做養豬工作以上我的結論對不對"},{"start":10725.419,"end":10749.891,"text":"是的他是根據環境部所公告的這些標準然後由地方政府核定那地方政府可核定可不核定會由地方政府來決定所以雲林之所以沒有廚餘養豬是因為雲林縣政府他們做了這個決定就是不要開放廚餘養豬所以我要請大家一起注意這件事情因為是地方政府主責所以絕對不是事情丟到中央說了才算就像我剛一開始問的為什麼事情要分中央跟地方搞清楚"},{"start":10750.231,"end":10778.53,"text":"一起合作但是該誰做就要誰承擔再來當市長做了這個決定之後呢市政府就要在後續的其他有像這次的緊急事件當中市政府也是要有角色除了疫調之外我不知道後續市政府還有哪些角色這個部分我覺得要拜託農業部因為今天雖然主席只找了農業部跟財政部來但是也要報告主席喔在處於去化的部分其實需要環境部其他跨部會的事情不要只有在問責於農業部接下來我要問的是關於這個"},{"start":10780.671,"end":10803.977,"text":"相關法規範處於養豬的部分還有地方跟中央的分工接下來我要講的是時間序其實很多委員都很關心時間序的問題但我要問市主跟市政府之間這個關係明明市政府他有角色他有法規範可以讓他去對市主做出相關的動作但沒有做目前這件事情你們怎麼看就是根據地方政府回報的時候他在10號的時候因為我們後那個畫室後台發現到他異常死亡"},{"start":10808.686,"end":10827.111,"text":"那市政府的動保處人員去看的時候如果有異常的話他可以要求他要去做相關的採樣或檢體那市主是不得拒絕的那這個部分我們會去再釐清到底是市主拒絕還是動保處沒有要求這個部分我想我們在疫調的時候會去做釐清"},{"start":10827.771,"end":10851.741,"text":"對我覺得這個部分非常重要因為現在網路上非常多言論就一昧丟包給中央我覺得這非常非常的不公平中央該做緊急應變事情我們也做了可是在那之前我再次強調除於這件事情的組織機關在地方政府在飼料管理法第20條第一款還有在動物傳染病防治辦法第28條第一項第一款裡面都說得非常的清楚我也要拜託"},{"start":10852.441,"end":10881.683,"text":"我們在相關部會相關謠言的澄清當然現在第一階段沒有辦法澄清謠言我知道你們在地方已經很努力在工作後續這個部分我們一起加強也希望大家在這個觀念上要搞得清楚以上謝謝部長謝謝主席主席剛剛跟你報告有一件事因為你剛剛在跟網友講話沒有聽到因為今天有很多人問到除於去化的問題確實團善業者也好或是營養午餐或是很多美食街這個去化的問題是關於環境部如果主席對這個議題還有關心可以再邀請環境部"},{"start":10882.503,"end":10901.256,"text":"以上谢谢主席谢谢你好好接下来我们请赖会员委员请做寻讨谢谢主席请部长我们再请陈部长"},{"start":10906.325,"end":10928.597,"text":"部長 那個延續剛才幾位委員的一個議題我要請教10月10號到10月14號這個是一個採樣的一個關鍵期那到底就是說台中動保處有沒有要求就是事主就是要採樣"},{"start":10929.798,"end":10951.406,"text":"那有沒有事主就是這個過程裡頭是怎麼樣的一個情況我們必須要去把它釐清這個關係到後續的一些行政的一個工作那還有最重要就是說10月10號到10月14號他再出地再20倍價那個流出我想大家"},{"start":10951.926,"end":10977.379,"text":"必須要把它搞清楚是行政怠惰還是程序上的一個疏失還是制度出了一個問題這10天的空窗期絕對不是台中市副市長那個黃國榮一句說我們已經盡了最大的努力了我想這個關係到整個養豬產業非常重要的一個存亡之際我們花了20年在把台灣變成是一個"},{"start":10979.46,"end":10997.378,"text":"惠州豬瘟的一個防疫區這個你知道我們這裡的地方都可以外銷外銷新加坡 外銷菲律賓這個都得到很好的一個成績那如果只是一個地方政府的一個疏失讓我們造成一個這麼大的一個破口這個都是我們不應該去承擔的"},{"start":11001.903,"end":11026.981,"text":"所以禁印5天禁印5天這個在後續你剛才有講到了就是說你們是把它延長到15天那5天一個cycle5天一個cycle都會充分的就是反映追蹤那事實上如果以我個人在這產業界這麼多年的一個關懷的一個時間我想15天可能還不夠部長你可能還要有一個第二"},{"start":11027.321,"end":11054.954,"text":"第二一個那個計畫準備就是營運這個禁運的5天15天以外的第二套計畫來 部長請回答我跟委員報告就是我們現在是訂15天5天為關卡期看它的一個疫調的情況但是如果說在這15天之內大概疫情是可被控制的那接下來可能是一個類似自主管理的部分讓它更乾淨能夠更安全的時候"},{"start":11055.314,"end":11079.614,"text":"那我们会考量看看到时候跟业者来讨论所以我跟你说自主管理这个讲到自主管理的话在这里我还要再提醒部长你们必须还有畜牧师还要做一个准备如果万一传染出去的时候你到时候你这一个场它临近三公里有几个场这一些地图你们都要做出来了对我们现在的畜牧场的全台湾的地图都已经Mapping在那边了好"},{"start":11080.174,"end":11098.076,"text":"非常好還有一段就是說全部全國的一個畜牧場其實現在面臨到的一個困難就是說消毒水消毒水不是有錢喔有錢買不到喔這個很大的一個困難到底那我們農業部有做什麼樣的一個準備"},{"start":11098.476,"end":11118.471,"text":"我想昨天在中央應變中心的時候我就指示各地方政府一定要去協助包括化織車基本最重要是化織車的一個消毒跟豬場的消毒那這個部分我們之前也提供了消毒水那如果說不夠的話由地方政府先來支應但是中央一定用經衛來補助來協助他們所以這個部分我想"},{"start":11119.191,"end":11142.387,"text":"我們會更用心的將這個部分來處理然後我們從環境 從運輸 從那個續舍這個等等的一個途徑你都是要那個全部全線的一個追蹤那再來還有境外的一個包裹境外的包裹你有沒有跨部會跨部會去做一個整合現在境外的包裹是不是應該要暫停呢"},{"start":11144.035,"end":11170.785,"text":"我跟我們報告就是整個邊境的防堵的部分大概從旅客的部分包括郵包的部分還有快遞的部分包括走私的部分我們是跨部會聯合稽查那這個部分我想我們從108年開始我們就非常積極的去做而且這個強度沒有降低反而是更精進的部分包括抽檢的比例更高所以這個部分我們會去持續去加強"},{"start":11171.305,"end":11188.999,"text":"部長 你的宣傳會就已經被刪了六成了你怎麼有辦法做這麼多的一個事情呢境外包裹 我跟你講這個違規中港澳最高嘛你這次出現的問題是噴嘛你是在那個就是用那個噴室養的這一些養豬場嘛"},{"start":11190.16,"end":11211.677,"text":"有没有考虑到就是说在未来是不是要前面的那个停止这个也是一个很重要的一个议题这个是后续的问题那你也要考虑你知道吗其实在日本养猪他们也是有用到喷可是他们是用喷把它在那个升级做饲料它是变成饲料变成饲料以后再来喂猪这个部分我想我们会来考虑"},{"start":11212.097,"end":11239.575,"text":"必須要關心的對 後續的養豬的這些政策我們包括可能逐步的轉型然後也讓這個廚藝的部分有機會變成飼料以後再來餵這個部分我想我們會整體來考慮是啊 所以再一次提醒部長就是說也請你加油因為面臨到很這個是很重要很重要的一個對養豬產業很大的一個困境跟挑戰所以農業部跟其他的部會我們要一起聯合起來跨部會謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11247.126,"end":11265.818,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做巡檔好 主席 在黨委員先進列席的政務及官司長 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體 記者 女士先生有請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":11274.025,"end":11280.06,"text":"我也好部長我很迅速的延續剛剛賴慧媛委員所說的在日本的廚餘它是轉化成液態飼料來飼養豬對不對"},{"start":11282.845,"end":11305.956,"text":"對 它是轉化成飼料以後再進來那為什麼要轉化成液態飼料呢 兩個原因因為每個人每天都在製造廚餘所以廚餘一定要去化 對不對但是廚餘如果直接餵養會有風險所以日本在轉化成液態飼料後才給豬隻食用 對不對好 那我請問一下我們今年是不是宣布台灣才脫離三大疫區是 今年五月豬瘟的嘛 傳統豬瘟 非洲豬瘟還有長病毒 對不對"},{"start":11310.779,"end":11320.225,"text":"那請問一下過去這幾年來關於管制廚餘申請資源再利用是不是有使用"},{"start":11321.314,"end":11345.447,"text":"我想我們從108年開始這些對廚餘的關係跟現在一樣嘛跟現在一樣沒有對所以在這樣的廚餘的再資源化利用的情況之下台灣仍然有效的達成脫離豬瘟的疫區是不是對如果說我們沒有去重視它我們不可能守住七年啊是的表示說過去這七年還是有這樣的廚餘的再資源化的利用但是"},{"start":11346.067,"end":11370.922,"text":"沒有影響到我們脫離疫區的努力是這都是靠著大家落實嘛是所以重點是在落實是還是禁用我覺得落實是最重要的好就像我們說的有人運動要去登山有人要去健行你會因為健行被車撞還是因為登山發生山難就全面禁止登山健行嗎你會這樣做嗎不會不會嗎好那我們接下來看一下那"},{"start":11372.055,"end":11397.202,"text":"請問一下什麼樣的豬種是使用廚餘資源化的我們現在了解的是大概是黑毛豬的部分黑毛豬嘛黑豬白豬各有所好那請問黑豬佔我們全體豬的量供應量大概多少有沒有8%大概大概40幾萬隻吧差不多8%8%對8%所以說絕大部分我們吃的豬肉是白肉豬白毛豬黑豬只有8%黑豬的主要消費地在哪裡"},{"start":11399.005,"end":11421.858,"text":"桃園在桃竹苗我檢驗你有沒有看過客家的那個神豬賽豬宮有沒有都是黑豬嘛這是一個特定族群的傳統的習俗跟他們的飲食習慣那麼黑豬的主要消費地是在桃竹苗那請問這個地區的黑豬使用的廚餘資源化來源地是哪裡是不是北部的餐廳"},{"start":11423.997,"end":11439.015,"text":"是嘛北部的外食人口多所以北部的連飼料的供應也是北部市場的需求也在北部所以桃豬苗的確是台灣目前這8%黑豬的產地跟市場的主要集中區是不是這樣"},{"start":11439.776,"end":11462.635,"text":"是的 我跟委員報告那為什麼這次我們在台中出現了這一場我們的廚餘的資源化再利用是誰在管 是不是環保局在管是 地方是環保局那我們是不是有兩個原則第一 兩百頭以下不得使用 對不對規模化才有效益第二 一定要集中高溫烹煮 對不對是不是還包括說我們盡量鼓勵試用團散的食魚家庭廚餘的風險是不是比較高"},{"start":11463.942,"end":11479.713,"text":"相對相對的那你認為這是無期的清潔隊他收來的廚餘是家庭廚餘還是團戰廚餘我們在疫調也會了解不過你如果不管是清潔隊或是事業廚餘或是家庭廚餘你如果要落實爭主是落實爭主最主要的但是風險呢"},{"start":11480.834,"end":11503.684,"text":"家庭廚餘有可能會是境外郵包食品的郵包比如說我不是一定但是有可能是包括境內的移工他們想念家鄉的食物進來的郵包食用後進入了家庭廚餘被清潔隊收了後送到了這個養豬場這個小規模養豬場又沒有高溫蒸煮造成了這樣的可能性這樣的可能性是不是存在"},{"start":11504.653,"end":11522.923,"text":"我覺得所有的風險我們都不可以忽視好那所以我這裡要請我們農業部一定要在行政院現在行政院有沒有聯合起來對這個非洲豬瘟的事件開始做跨部會的協調我想特別是昨天院長特別召開的這些跨部會的這個非洲豬瘟的一個應變的一個會議"},{"start":11524.344,"end":11549.128,"text":"那原來的制度裡面就有中央非洲豬的中央應變中心我們會透過這個組織來運作所以包括目前在我們本來廚餘限制廚餘管制使用必須資源化處理對不對那這個是環境部環保局在做那請問現在台中市的部分它那麼多團山那麼多營養午餐產生那麼多的廚餘這段時間不能使用那怎麼去化這是農業部管的還是環境部管的"},{"start":11549.928,"end":11564.424,"text":"這個是環境部來協助來處理的地方的環保局所以地方的環保局要趕快的落實趕快的去因應在這段禁用廚餘期間團散營養午餐的這個廚餘要怎麼去化可以用燒的嗎"},{"start":11566.923,"end":11584.298,"text":"不曉得我想這是環境部環保局的問題我所了解環境部跟地方環保局昨天已經有開會然後希望說有一個儲存的地方然後用委外的方式去收取所以我們在這裡希望說其實這個廚餘資源化是環境議題"},{"start":11585.599,"end":11612.508,"text":"對於農業部門來講養豬全部的黑豬只佔8%不是我們國家主要的養豬的主要的市場但是在國內仍然有特定的消費人口在使用所以我們希望說未來農業部跟環境部要在這一次的教訓之後我們一定要落實包括邊境管制包括這些使用的資源化必須要能夠被監督有落實高溫增煮可以嗎這一定要這樣做的好 謝謝"},{"start":11614.281,"end":11634.126,"text":"好 谢谢接下来我们请王红薇委员请做询答好 谢谢主席我请陈部长还有我们关务署关务署署长"},{"start":11638.274,"end":11659.321,"text":"好部長辛苦了我想請教就是有關來源的部分那現在很多都指向廚餘但是我也有看到我們的獸醫專家有講說因為現在我們國內的豬肉價格很高所以不排除有走私豬肉進口"},{"start":11660.862,"end":11678.01,"text":"那這裡面呢提到就說有可能有從中國或者是越南走私豬肉那因為呢它的地點無錫港有地緣上的關係那麼而且呢在這一次的就是有關於它的病毒豬病毒豬"},{"start":11680.191,"end":11690.346,"text":"那麼也有這個專家提到說他的一個排序跟越南的非洲豬瘟類似所以我想請教部長還有我們的關務署因為"},{"start":11695.453,"end":11721.67,"text":"我們這麼多年來我們守住了所以這一定從境外來的嗎那所以我想請問一下除了廚餘的感染之外有沒有可能在我們的現在的追查裡面來自於境外有沒有可能是來自於走私豬肉那至於他講說他的排序是跟越南的非洲豬瘟類似我想請問是不是有這樣的訊息"},{"start":11722.551,"end":11744.948,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是所有的來源我們一定要經過完整的疫調才能夠確認不過非洲豬瘟的導入一定是從境外的它有可能是國外的這些含有豬肉製品進到注意系統然後有可能人員的部分也有可能走私的部分它有不同可能的原因所以我們不排除是有境外走私豬肉"},{"start":11745.709,"end":11764.264,"text":"而造成的嗎我覺得都有可能所以我們疫調的時候會去了解好 那我現在提到就是有這個獸醫專家提到無錫港有沒有可能因為你們有港口的關係然後就是因為這個都是我們境外把關我們有沒有去討論或研究到可能有這樣的一個路徑"},{"start":11765.204,"end":11781.495,"text":"我想我們在中央應變中心針對境外防堵的部分境外的走私就是一個非常重要的一個工作是由海委會這邊來負責的然後光務的部分是針對行李的部分所以不同部會有相關的一個部分我知道像剛才大家特別提到就廚餘的部分那麼可能它還有些後續的問題但是要提醒不要排除走私豬肉也就是我們境外管理出現了一個漏洞"},{"start":11793.382,"end":11808.602,"text":"而使得這個非洲豬瘟長驅直入直接到了這個台灣讓我們出現了這樣的一個首次的案例另外呢剛才在提到說10月14號現在很多在追究10月14號為什麼沒有採檢"},{"start":11811.185,"end":11819.948,"text":"但是現在我發現我們的次長杜汶珍次長也提到說這個在經過獸醫的檢查的時候也承認這是一個非典型的病態這是一個非典型病態因為它沒有出現傳統我們所知道非洲豬瘟會出現的什麼流鼻血或者耳朵瘀青等等的症狀"},{"start":11836.574,"end":11852.477,"text":"所以對於這種非典型的病態是不是在這一次確實存在然後未來我們要怎麼樣的去預防因為我們接下來我們也怕再有類似這樣的狀況然後我們沒有辦法防堵到"},{"start":11853.699,"end":11872.502,"text":"謝謝在我們那個主委回答之前我們今天會議中午不休息一直到我們議程結束謝謝請說回答我想第一個說明就是我們杜市長所回應的不是說我們農業部因為現在外面都說我們農業部說沒辦法去分辨這個是從台東市政府動保處那邊所說到的"},{"start":11872.822,"end":11885.088,"text":"那的确非洲猪瘟跟现在的部分的这些那叫做肺腺杆菌的肺膜炎它的病征是很类似的部分确实很类似所以它是一个非典型的部分所以确实兽医没有办法没有办法分辨出它没有办法立刻诊断出这个是疑似非洲猪瘟"},{"start":11892.672,"end":11921.733,"text":"但是有一個重要就是我們會去監控後面的死亡的異常如果有異常的時候其實就應該更有警惕的部分所以這也是我們在做疫調的主要的調查原因因為它後面的畫質它有連續的5天的部分都是異常死亡的部分那異常死亡就不能當作一般的非典型的部分去處理它必須去做一些比較強勢的處理那到底是事主拒絕還是動保處的人員沒有去做"},{"start":11922.193,"end":11944.508,"text":"那這個東西在疫調的過程中現在市主能夠拒絕嗎市主能拒絕嗎他不能拒絕如果說動保處要強勢去採檢的話市主是不能拒絕的所以我們現在法律上是市主不能拒絕的嗎是完全是不能拒絕的嗎因為你今天受醫所他所調查出來拒絕的話他會罰款"},{"start":11948.587,"end":11964.885,"text":"所以我們現在是說你的意思說地方政府是可以用罰款的方式但是我覺得像這種遇到這種類似的因為獸醫師也應該知道這些非典型的症狀非洲豬瘟跟哪一些非典型的症狀的疾病是一樣的如果他有"},{"start":11965.606,"end":11990.075,"text":"但是他如果說一隻兩隻那還好他如果異常死亡而且連續的異常死亡的時候就應該那我最後問一句我不要佔用大家時間目前我們還有我們除了這個養豬場之外在其他的養豬場目前有沒有出現也有異常死亡的現象到目前為止到目前為止的關聯場他的並沒有異常死亡的現象"},{"start":11990.475,"end":12001.396,"text":"到目前为止目前是锁定在就是这个养猪场没有我们锁定在这个养猪场还有它周遭三公里的还有它的化制车走经过的这些关联场"},{"start":12002.897,"end":12030.039,"text":"除了這個關聯廠之外我想全台灣的豬農都非常緊張目前在通報上有沒有這個目前類似別說大量死亡的沒有但是我還是希望這個對這些非典型的病態因為我覺得這個因為第一線這是我們第一次嘛大家可能經驗不足會經驗不足的問題所以在非典型病態的部分是不是應該要有一些精進的方案的提出"},{"start":12030.179,"end":12057.673,"text":"我想透過這次疫調一定有更多的可以精進的作為那所有的這些防疫人員都非常辛苦的但是它相關的有一些判斷上面來講也沒有辦法很及時但是我想我們會針對這一次的疫調過程中會設計出一個新的機制讓我們的低線的同仁一個新的SOP好不好讓所有低線的人員能夠更快的因為我們是以"},{"start":12058.893,"end":12069.417,"text":"維護台灣的產業為主這個我想我們大家一起努力中央地方要一起努力好了解謝謝好謝謝謝謝那接下來我們請黃婕委員好謝謝主席我們請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12095.267,"end":12114.224,"text":"好部長好首先要跟你說辛苦了因為其實這個事情是10月21號也就是前天晚上你們接到這件事情通報然後短短三天內其實農業部的反應非常迅速那也馬上成立了前進的協調所那我們杜文貞次長也馬上的到台中去進行協助了"},{"start":12114.804,"end":12117.646,"text":"那我覺得你們真的非常辛苦今天還臨時要被叫來這個變更議程然後突然要來這邊備詢那我覺得這當然其實我們農業部的整個流程然後對於整個危機應變的能力都是很強的那現在看起來是因為台中市府確實面臨一些困難"},{"start":12132.936,"end":12144.192,"text":"那我覺得農業部必須要給予更多協助因為很顯然他們沒有能力處理這些事情包括10月10號發生第一例死亡結果到了10月20號過了10天之後他們才到現場進行採驗那這個中間整整10天"},{"start":12150.16,"end":12176.903,"text":"沒有進行採驗的這個問題我覺得非常大這是第一個我認為你們一定要積極的督促台中市政府趕快把過去這些鬆掉的螺絲趕快補上的問題第二個這個沒有採驗的原因你們必須要跟他們了解第二個接下來焚化的問題我也認為問題很大你們已經很明確的建議他們應該要以焚化來處理結果他們堅決要用掩埋"},{"start":12177.563,"end":12200.704,"text":"那這件事情我們農業部跟我們可不可以跟環境部協調一下看他們到底可不可以協助他們能用焚化就用焚化的而不是塗增多餘的風險繼續讓這件事情可能擴大我跟委員報告因為台中的豬隻我們不准他移到其他縣市然後我們在昨天中央應變中心的會議也明確的說希望是用焚化的部分"},{"start":12201.184,"end":12221.776,"text":"那焚化的部分如果租资太大的话我们也调度了一些所谓的生物处理机让他们去把这些病死猪的部分就做部分的处理再进到焚化那环境部也跟昨天也跟地方的环保局在开会那我相信这个问题最后台东市政府应该也会朝向我们的决议是往焚化的方向去处理"},{"start":12222.096,"end":12241.965,"text":"好謝謝部長因為我在這邊認為很顯然他們從採驗到後來的焚化的處理都是沒有能力的所以我覺得農業部的責任就變得更重大我們只能盡力的來協助盡力的挽救那至於另外一個部分我也要提醒很顯然他們在廚餘再利用的部分是出現問題的"},{"start":12243.206,"end":12270.851,"text":"所以他們很顯然可能沒有落實你們說的必須要90度以上然後一個小時的持續烹調然後持續攪拌這樣子的處理方式所以除於在利用很顯然有人沒有落實這個我們就一定要來精進一定要來更嚴格要求這個部分好嗎這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這個也一定是在疫調裡面去調查的它的除於增組的一些SOP本身還有它的落實度因為這都是這一次問題的癥結點對 這次都會去做調查"},{"start":12271.431,"end":12283.338,"text":"沒錯好謝謝部長所以我在這邊拜託幾件事情第一個他們動保處到底為什麼沒有第一時間採驗明明如果我們四組拒絕採驗你就是開罰啊這麼嚴重的事情為什麼當時不開罰或者是沒有第一時間去阻斷這個傳播鏈第二個這個焚化爐的問題焚化的問題拜託你們也進入協助"},{"start":12293.604,"end":12311.46,"text":"第三個疫調現在看起來台中市自己有在疫調但是看起來疫調的效率也不張所以也拜託疫調部分也請你們直接協助以及這28頭豬現在已經有入市場的也請你們直接協助了我拜託農業部直接協助"},{"start":12312.18,"end":12336.246,"text":"會 我想這也是為什麼我們在台中成立前進應變所的原因就是直接來協助地方政府補足地方政府量能不足的地方好 那這28頭豬流入市場也請你們幫他們查清楚吧那我要講一下說這件事情真的影響非常大因為到昨天看到我們台中市長都還在講說要購物節拚經濟但卻沒有提到說這整個豬肉的產業鏈造成的"},{"start":12340.298,"end":12367.364,"text":"損失可能是上千億元耶不只今天看到我們隔壁的這個雙越就說滷肉飯要停賣了我們高雄南豐滷肉飯也要停賣了影響所有店家所有消費者所有豬農高達上千億的產值都是接下來都在這樣的威脅當中所以這件事情真的不可不慎然後包括說你們可能接下來淨運載可能的天數要長達15天我相信很多人都很緊張"},{"start":12369.19,"end":12388.644,"text":"我想這是必要的措施這樣的話才能夠讓我們的員工更精準掌握當然我也同意必須要面對敵人面對這麼風險這麼高的病毒我們必須要料底從寬那最後我請一下關務署我在這邊想要講一下邊境管制的事情部長先請回座"},{"start":12389.565,"end":12416.688,"text":"那署長我在這邊請教一下因為我認為邊境管控才是這解決這整件事情的根源必須要杜絕這一些來自疫區可能的風險可是其實一直以來我都很常接到民眾說又有人從中港澳違規攜帶疫區來的肉製品包括說在蝦皮上面販賣中國的肉粽包括說在一些地方的社團販賣一些中國的月餅"},{"start":12417.449,"end":12432.417,"text":"然後甚至是來路不明的一些中港澳的豬肉的製品都流竄在網路上這個是我一直以來都有接到的那很顯然這些都是違規我也知道公務署一直都有在查所以從2018年到現在每年幾乎都1000多件"},{"start":12433.757,"end":12446.281,"text":"這樣子的違規的從中港澳來的疫區的製品那當然我也希望幫你們呼籲民眾所以我每次都會一再的呼籲民眾說拜託不要再從疫區帶這一些這麼風險這麼高的肉製品進來了可是"},{"start":12451.784,"end":12476.847,"text":"我們這邊還已經量能提的這麼高了邊境管控量能幾乎從進口的郵包進口的貨運都百分之百少X光了我們還能做什麼可不可以暫停停運從這一些來自疫區的肉製品報告委員暫停停運這些來自特定國家的這些物品這涉及很多部會還有相關法制的問題容我們再研議一下"},{"start":12478.069,"end":12484.055,"text":"我覺得非常時期需要非常手段我在這邊提出這麼這是一個很嚴厲的一個政策沒有錯可是現在台灣豬的風險就是已經"},{"start":12490.834,"end":12508.26,"text":"正在面臨非常嚴峻的考驗我們希望我們繼續成為亞洲唯一三大豬瘟的非異國這是一個得來不易的榮耀要歸於所有的農業部所有關務署的同仁這是你們辛苦多年以來的成績可是現在卻因為一個破口"},{"start":12509.417,"end":12533.36,"text":"造成這麼大的危機大家的心情都非常的沉重所以這件事情到底怎麼解決我認為邊境管控就是一個關鍵啊去年沒宣費被刪了六成去年邊境管控的經費被動刪了四千萬今年我們當然一樣會全力支持你也希望所有立法院同仁支持你們可是這些非常手段該實施就實施吧"},{"start":12535.602,"end":12553.694,"text":"是了解委員的意思那因為牽涉到問題跟法治非常的廣 廣泛還是要我們要審慎研議一下好那也拜託這些網路上來路不寧的包裹嚴加查緝那當然我們現在海關已經全力動員是好謝謝署長好謝謝"},{"start":12558.564,"end":12587.784,"text":"来接下来我们请赖世宝委员赖世宝赖世宝委员不在现场我们请林楚英委员林楚英林楚英委员不在现场我们请陈冠廷陈冠廷委员陈冠廷委员不在现场我们请刘书斌刘书斌委员不在现场我们最后请徐新义委员请发言谢谢好谢谢主席本席有请部长陈部长我们再请陈部长"},{"start":12594.64,"end":12599.392,"text":"委員部長我想我們的邊境防疫"},{"start":12601.109,"end":12620.227,"text":"出現了危機大家都覺得應該要想辦法改進但是有些委員一直覺得這跟沒宣費有關我想應該不是所以我今天要就邊境防疫的危機我們覺得防線潰堤的部分要來跟部長來討論我們這一次114年邊境查驗了"},{"start":12627.301,"end":12650.823,"text":"截至114年10月21號邊境查驗了9507件其中有996件病毒查驗是陽性等於是我們的病毒陽性率高達10%那這是不是已經證明我們邊境防線出現了系統性的潰堤嚴重危險我想不能用這個數據因為"},{"start":12652.705,"end":12667.06,"text":"我們邊境查驗是看到就是夾帶了以後我們去查驗那查驗的時候有一些不同的國家那這些是針對可能的包括你剛才說10%那這10%裡面也有80%是從氣質它放在垃圾桶裡面我們去檢查的"},{"start":12674.586,"end":12686.732,"text":"對 所以它本身就是有可能是肉製品的我們又去查然後有非洲豬瘟陽性的是10%那其中大概有八成是來自中國的部分所以我們現在在機場我們現在在機場的檢驗"},{"start":12690.834,"end":12711.048,"text":"一般認為是不是有需要改善比如說你高度的仰賴人力那你X光機的判讀可能有一些問題或是什麼我跟委員報告我們從開始啟動整個邊境的防疫是由跨部會不同的機關來處理分幾個層次而且我們一直在精進好 沒關係我問重點好了現在有我們這個如果被這個發現是財閥20萬對不對是20萬20萬他如果"},{"start":12721.695,"end":12739.192,"text":"據入境他就可以不用罰他以後就不能再入境了以後就不能再入境大概有600多 629個人所以我們的這個檢查的制度是不是要調整我們現在對於入境的旅客你是看依據區域是不是高風險區域你才查還是都查"},{"start":12742.833,"end":12756.843,"text":"都會去查但是高風險區的話我記得我們出國回來好像都是不是高風險區的部分是100%然後非高風險區的話是用抽查的方式那是在通道的時候嘛"},{"start":12758.664,"end":12767.928,"text":"那是分兩個部分如果說是在我們檢疫之前那我們有設我們的藍線跟紅線綠線跟紅線那那個部分是提醒如果在那個地方如果有檢驗這個違規的產品的話你丟棄那麼你在進來海關的時候你不會被罰我說的問題是你綠線給他自主性的走綠線但實際上他搞不好夾帶進來所以那這樣到海關的時候他一定被罰"},{"start":12785.396,"end":12800.706,"text":"那只要租的製品被查出來跟海關我們有兩道防線啦我們的叫做預防性我們的是設在前面叫預防性那如果民眾配合在那個時候守規矩的話可能在後面被海關截下來的時候就不會被罰"},{"start":12802.318,"end":12819.903,"text":"你海關你用什麼檢查X光對啊 所以我們就說你這X光可能人力的配置我們分兩個層次一個層次就是說我們在入關之前我們會提醒你如果主動丟棄的話我們是不罰的可是一旦入關你又被查到的時候那你就會被罰"},{"start":12820.723,"end":12840.689,"text":"然後另外委員一直關心的就是X光機的部分的判試我們現在也盡快用AI化就是AI化的方式去處理因為我時間的關係那我想請教我們是否應該擴大WOAH國際合作共享病毒株序列可以做到超前預測變異風險讓我們的篩檢試劑跑在病毒前面這個可以嗎"},{"start":12846.116,"end":12871.311,"text":"我想這個部分我請我們的獸醫所來回應因為比較技術面的問題是有關那個病毒株序列的事情我們都會公佈在上面以我們也因為分享在那個網路上我們能做到超前預測嗎基本上比較不容易對 因為這個病毒它也是DNA病毒變異本身就比RNA病毒還要小變異的機率比較小而且它病毒的基因序列又比較大"},{"start":12872.091,"end":12898.742,"text":"所以我们不容易做到预测病毒会往哪个方向是不是可以看看仿效其他国家有更先进的我们想办法来做那接着最后最后一个问题就是有关我们画质数据的部分画质数据这个部分部长我们应该要能够有及时的机动的监测而不是事后才发现现在像我很快举例像我们现在"},{"start":12899.722,"end":12917.548,"text":"銀行他不是有很多警示帳戶嗎只要有有異常的他就會跳出來現在你們對畫質數據有沒有動態的數據只要畫質車你的數據重量你隨時你等於有一個機制那發現異常他就跳出來我們現在就有這個機制"},{"start":12920.29,"end":12934.031,"text":"現在什麼時候現在就是我們畫製廠本身的這些後台的數據那我們有設定不同規模的時候它的不同百分比的異常死亡那就變成異常 異常的話它自動跳出來這一次怎麼會那麼慢"},{"start":12935.647,"end":12960.679,"text":"這就是我們有 我們才一直提醒可是也是事後耶 也是事後因為當你發現那個死亡的豬隻的重量車輛的數量異常的時候你應該馬上就可以發現不是等到這個比較後面我們看到異常你們也是事後嘛 不是即時的監測算是即時的 就是即時的算是即時 然後我們也通報地方政府地方政府同步也可以看到這個數據啦"},{"start":12962.21,"end":12975.546,"text":"好 所以我們還是希望預防勝於撲殺我們大家一起來努力包含邊境的防疫還有我們這個即時的監測數據所以我想我們會持續的精進也不會把這個強度降低好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":12980.236,"end":13007.5,"text":"好 谢谢登记发言的委员除不在场其余的都已经发言完毕询答结束我们由委员陈超明委员陈冠廷委员所提书面咨询列入公报刊登列入记录书面咨询以及未答复的部分请相关单位一周之内以书面答复并复制本会我们特别感谢媒体朋友以及机关单位我们各位同仁大家的发言让"},{"start":13008.2,"end":13023.504,"text":"我們可以好好的維護臺灣的產業我相信透過這樣子的一個說明以及詢問讓大家更清楚也讓國人希望讓國人能夠安靜下來謝謝 散會"}]}},{"id":"16980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16980","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e698c973f844725bd75ffe8fe349624300aa126c40303dc27bde820e076837e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-23T08:41:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-23T12:09:00+08:00","duration":12467,"影片長度":"03:27:47","委員發言時間":"08:41:13 - 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歡迎"},{"start":1355.569,"end":1369.882,"text":"財經資訊股份有限公司林國良林董事長歡迎我們請議事今日議程安排邀請中央銀行楊總裁金融進行業務報告我們現在請楊總裁進行業務報告請總裁"},{"start":1383.598,"end":1412.371,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天呈邀前來貴委員會報告本行業務自感榮幸本行經營目標在於促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內及對外幣值穩定兼顧協助經濟發展以下緊究國內外經濟金融情勢以及大院上議會起以來本行執行貨幣信用與外匯政策等主要業務提出報告敬請會事指教"},{"start":1413.351,"end":1423.499,"text":"請翻開第二頁 國際經濟金融情勢貨物一預期本年全球經濟成長率低於上年明年呢 續趨緩第三頁"},{"start":1429.631,"end":1453.017,"text":"S&P Global 預期本年全球通膨由上年的4.5%降至3.3%明年續降至3.1%第二頁這邊S&P Global Market Intelligence預期本年全球經濟成長率為2.7%內地以上年的2.8%明年全球經濟成長率續降至2.6%第四頁"},{"start":1455.538,"end":1464.655,"text":"二 預期至本年底費的持續降息 ECB維持政策利率不變BOJ有望升息 人行則延續寬鬆基調"},{"start":1467.51,"end":1487.515,"text":"下面掛五一美德中十年期公債殖利率震盪日本則先跌或升第五月美元指數震盪走低主要經濟體貨幣對美元都走升第六月掛五三全球股價指數續創新高主要股市上漲第七月"},{"start":1489.098,"end":1501.036,"text":"全球本年全球經濟成長與同盟趨緩經濟前景面臨美國貿易政策發展及其影響人去不確定性主要央行貨幣政策走向分歧意義"},{"start":1502.014,"end":1519.502,"text":"与财政风险升温AI过于乐观风险与气候变迁中国大陆内需疲弱与生产过剩问题仍存在但诸多不确定因素人需持续关注后续发展及影响第八页国内经济金融情势"},{"start":1520.782,"end":1534.667,"text":"掛五一本年以來出口及民間投資成長又預期本年九月本行上修本年經濟成長率預測值4.55%第九月三本年九月本行理事會以來台灣"},{"start":1539.411,"end":1545.695,"text":"以來主要機構都上修本年台灣經濟成長預測值平均為5.02%明年本行預測經濟成長率為2.68%主要機構對台灣明年經濟成長率預測值平均為2.36%"},{"start":1564.453,"end":1586.804,"text":"請翻開12月3日預期本年台灣CPI年增率降至2%以下明年續降第15月掛無3日預期本年台灣CPI年增率降至2%以下明年續降本年9月本行預測本年台灣CPI及核心CPI年增率分別為1.75% 1.67%"},{"start":1589.525,"end":1612.145,"text":"低于上年的2.18% 1.88%主要 二 明年本行九月本行预测CPI及核心CPI廉政率分别降为1.66% 1.64%四 银行放款与投资成长率下降货币总计数廉政率先降或升"},{"start":1614.981,"end":1634.981,"text":"第十七月五銀行以貨幣市場利率小幅波動第十八月本行主要業務說明一本年九月本行維持政策利率不變有助整體經濟金融穩健發展十八月二本行根據執行選擇性金融管制措施"},{"start":1638.834,"end":1659.365,"text":"23月3本行透过公开市场操作及提供银行自主管理不动产贷款之弹性调整空间营造充裕的资金环境环境以支持传统产业及协助缓解民众申请房贷排布的现象27月"},{"start":1662.577,"end":1686.859,"text":"二 由于上半年国内汇市出现美元超额供给本行进场累计进买汇132.5亿美元以维持国内市场的稳定二十九月挂乌山本能迄今新台币兑美元升值6.95%升幅低于瑞士法郎及欧元高于日元及韩元"},{"start":1687.96,"end":1711.119,"text":"三十月挂五四新台币波动幅度相对稳定三十一月挂五五的一本行外汇存底是用于调节国际收支稳定金融及外汇市场本年九月底本行外汇存点是六零二九亿美元较上年底五七六七亿美元增加二六二亿美元"},{"start":1712.888,"end":1733.626,"text":"33月5本行啟動新台幣鈔券改版 掛五一即使電子支付日電普及現金仍很重要掛五二鈔券改版主要是為加強防偽並符合ESG永續發展的趨勢35月掛五三新台幣鈔券改版規劃一"},{"start":1737.469,"end":1754.254,"text":"新版鈔卷將採用更易於辨識的動態安全防衛特徵二 主題擇定過程將納入公民參與機制以凝聚社會的共識三 新版鈔卷材質主墨設及尺寸將維持不變並強化無障礙的設計"},{"start":1757.976,"end":1776.594,"text":"新台幣鈔券改版時程及成本的評估36月1至本行啟動改版程序預計所張新台幣鈔券與主題責定後兩年半發行2新版鈔券預估平均單價較現行流通鈔券高出1.5元"},{"start":1777.956,"end":1800.553,"text":"五 為確保鈔券防違功能與國際最新技術接軌以維護國家必信以及新版鈔券更符合ESG永續發展目標懇請各位委員頂住與支持本行啟動新台幣鈔券改版六 國內重要支付系統因應概括請各位委員執行參考"},{"start":1802.345,"end":1829.975,"text":"最後節餘40頁以上僅就國內外經濟金融情勢以本行主要業務提出檢要報告至於本行調節金融通貨發行外匯管理及經理國庫等業務概況則置於附路敬請著參本行兼顧促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內及對外幣值穩定兼顧協助經濟發展之法定職責隨時密切注意國內外經濟金融情勢妥適應用各種政策工具"},{"start":1830.535,"end":1845.886,"text":"以達成政策目標本行業務速成各位委員頂住以支持請藉此機會表達衷心感謝之意今後人請各位委員實施指教謝謝好我們謝謝楊總裁好我們先確認議事錄我們在場委員對於這個上次議事錄有遺漏的話有沒有意見"},{"start":1859.264,"end":1883.717,"text":"沒有沒有意見我們意思錄確定現在開始詢答先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10點這個截止發言登記現在我們依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":1899.213,"end":1904.416,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請央行的楊總裁我們請楊總裁林委員早 總裁早我請問 因為主計長在上個禮拜財委會答詢時表示AI需求持續看好今年經濟成長率應該有一點低估應該可以超過4.5%"},{"start":1927.765,"end":1933.207,"text":"加上中心院大幅度的上修全年的經濟成長率到達5.45%那我請問總裁對於上修經濟成長率你有什麼看法是 謝謝委員"},{"start":1943.611,"end":1969.474,"text":"的指教事實上呢主席處他說他要上修這個經濟成長率那事實上呢我也跟委員報告最近很多機構都調升了我們台灣的經濟成長率為什麼呢因為在八月以後九月十月到目前為止我們的出口跟我們的投資啊都比預期的好"},{"start":1970.134,"end":1985.078,"text":"所以這就是他們要上修我們經濟成長率的主要的原因我在想我們會密切來關注因為我們在上一季的時候就在9月我們禮監事會的時候我們是估測是4.55但是從我剛剛所說的9月到10月到目前台灣的經濟的出口跟"},{"start":1994.98,"end":2019.701,"text":"投資都比預期的好所以我想我們12月會公布新的數據總裁我請問因為上休第四季經濟成長率和前年經濟成長率到底是原先預測失準還是明年經濟溫和成長的預測可能有正面的發展變化是不是這樣子"},{"start":2021.502,"end":2029.764,"text":"應該也可以這麼說基本上因為一開始的時候所有的機構包括中央銀行也是一樣的我們都認為上半年是拉貨的效應美國關稅的一個政策的一個影響拉貨效應會比較好但是後半年大家都預測說拉貨的效應會逐漸縮減但是沒有"},{"start":2045.127,"end":2060.179,"text":"所以这个就是说为什么所有的机构呢纷纷最近包括ATB也把我们的那个经济成长率都把它上修了那至于就是说是明年呢明年呢也大部分也都认为是在介于2.5到3%之间"},{"start":2063.72,"end":2085.981,"text":"這樣喔 那個總裁 按照中間院的估算內容前年的GDP年增率5%當中有4%是來自AI相關那我請問總裁 那是不是代表AI以外的國內產業很多都是衰退的 是不是確實委員說的 還有中間院說的也沒有錯"},{"start":2088.602,"end":2095.624,"text":"基本上就是說我們的出口主要的是電子自通訊產品它的出口非常的暢旺這個跟AI有關係又是跟AI有關係是 跟AI有關係傳統產業"},{"start":2109.548,"end":2117.481,"text":"AI那個傳統產業基本上到目前為止它的成長率overall 我就說傳產overall它的成長率不高低於1%以下"},{"start":2126.112,"end":2152.347,"text":"總裁因為上修經濟成長力會不會太弱關還是全球經濟成長有反轉的趨勢台灣更是能夠獨步全球又或者現在只是衰退現象的延後未來還是要面對衰退的一個苦果以您看呢我具有的看法就是說一般現在我們如果說再仔細看一下各個機構的一個觀察"},{"start":2154.568,"end":2171.525,"text":"他都認為這個AI的發展他可能還是會持續下去還會下去總裁因為川普對等關稅可以說這個政策攪亂了全球的經濟情勢"},{"start":2173.447,"end":2202.415,"text":"和台灣的對等關稅政策到現在也還沒有定案那中華民國的暫時關稅條件甚至於比日本比韓國這個還要差那有媒體報導說這個台美關稅談判傳出可能是以美規的車進口零關稅那全面開放美租等等的條件達成不疊加的稅率"},{"start":2203.616,"end":2209.829,"text":"那總裁要達到不疊加關稅的門檻就你的了解我們有什麼有利的籌碼"},{"start":2211.654,"end":2238.436,"text":"我想我們有利的籌碼如果說具有了解主要的還是就是說美國還是需要我們的有關AI的一個產品AI 問題是那個總裁因為本席當然是期盼以目前執政的民進黨絕對不能犧牲國內的產業以全民的健康來簽訂喪權辱國的談判內容因為你要進美租"},{"start":2239.577,"end":2246.607,"text":"然後這個用我們很多的產業外移等等來做談判的內容根據"},{"start":2249.104,"end":2274.019,"text":"日前副總統蕭美琴接受加拿大廣播公司的專訪時表示台灣已承諾在美國投資晶片的產業不僅是台積電還包括整個生態系那總裁原本承諾的台積電投資的籌碼看起來沒有辦法去說服美國取得較好的關稅條件那我請問"},{"start":2275.14,"end":2286.925,"text":"那肖副總統的台積電生態系或是鄭麗君副院長的台灣模式你認為能夠成就兩國對等互利的關稅談判籌碼嗎報告委員"},{"start":2292.955,"end":2299.559,"text":"我不是這一方面的專家不過我個人我的解讀我覺得我們台灣的一個經驗包括就是說我們的科學園區的一個經驗要到美國去我覺得這個是兩國之間的一個互利我覺得是互利"},{"start":2318.656,"end":2335.122,"text":"對啦 那問題是你不能把我們的健康對不對你進美租過去民進黨也還美牛而且那時候我們是有條件的但是你要進美租然後一些車又零關稅等等我認為啦"},{"start":2336.502,"end":2350.036,"text":"你包括整個尤其AI的你包括台積電整個產業鏈都要提出去你還有什麼籌碼跟你家談幾乎沒有什麼籌碼所以說美國就制定我們日韓15%我們20%還加疊加"},{"start":2354.58,"end":2374.978,"text":"所以說那些產業幾乎都沒有辦法生存你包括水滸金 工具機甚至於說包括蝴蝶蘭一些腳踏車業等等那些幾乎都沒有辦法生存最近中南部那些產業幾乎所有的員工很多都無薪假"},{"start":2376.158,"end":2391.424,"text":"那沒有辦法生存現在有那麼多人沒有工作這是很嚴重的問題因為無薪以後會造成社會問題它有一個整個一個等於是一系列會造成這些衝擊跟影響你有什麼看法"},{"start":2392.684,"end":2395.085,"text":"我覺得當然委員在講的這個部分是確實會對這些產業的不利的影響不過據我了解好像我們的談判慢慢接近尾聲而且好像是會低於20%這個我看報紙的"},{"start":2413.65,"end":2429.28,"text":"我們也期待我們期待20%而且不要跌價因為你要讓那些產業能夠生存因為你跟韓國 日本根本就沒辦法去跟人家競爭對不對 都比人家高你怎麼競爭總裁明年編列AI新十大建設預算311億元"},{"start":2433.283,"end":2460.297,"text":"那卓院長說這是未來國家發展的重中之重而8月下旬經濟部長龔明星接受聯合報專訪也說明年開始要推動AI的新時代建設希望把AI相關的技術來導入百工百業讓產業能夠升級來轉型那就本席瞭解產業轉型是指國家地區或產業透過系統性的調整其產業的結構將傳統"},{"start":2463.058,"end":2487.463,"text":"或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值的產業的過程那我請問總裁產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎既然要這個範圍要導入百工百業你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎"},{"start":2488.783,"end":2496.565,"text":"要接軌AI相關技術百工百業的建制成本你認為是不是都已經準備好了我跟委員報告除了就是說資金的協助以外我想院裡面還有就是說還有經濟部他們對於實際上怎麼來協助他們我覺得他們也有做一些的安排嘴巴長很快但是要做"},{"start":2516.351,"end":2542.649,"text":"要做 食物做跟嘴巴講可能有一段距離就是說很落實的去做我想這個是很有幫助的我們希望說各個行業都很興旺當然我也希望說這些產業能夠轉型站在政府立場不要你讓傳統產業根本就沒有生存的空間這是我們大家的期待是 委員說的沒有錯"},{"start":2543.109,"end":2549.974,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員總裁請回接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請中央銀行楊總裁好 請楊總裁"},{"start":2575.565,"end":2601.609,"text":"吳委員早早喔是這個看到你的報告裡面提到今年上半年的經濟成長率是GDP是6.75是那因為上半年已經結束所以這是確定的對沒有錯然後你們的預估是下半年是2.51是所以全年現在預估是4.55是那當然你剛剛有講說12月的時候你們還會再開一個會然後看看是不是調整"},{"start":2601.929,"end":2622.542,"text":"但是我提醒你第三季我們的出口仍然更超越以往更破紀錄所以我看這個明顯的2.5億這個預估應該是會要調高我想我們會仔細的去研究裡面一個很重要的原因就是我們的出口"},{"start":2623.362,"end":2631.535,"text":"尤其是電子跟AI產品的出口這個訂單持續在增加然後今年對美國的粗糙你認為應該會有多少金額"},{"start":2638.587,"end":2663.854,"text":"我有一個數據跟委員報告我們是也有做預估大概會1200億左右對啊 去年我們台灣看自己的報告是600多億的順差但是美國是說是700多億因為可能轉口什麼計算的標準不是很一致差距不大"},{"start":2666.255,"end":2684.868,"text":"這700多億的這個順差在美國來講就已經是他前幾名的這個順差國家所以站在國際貿易的角度你認為這個應該要如何平衡我們有時候講談政治也好談國家跟國家之好一地而處"},{"start":2685.909,"end":2706.07,"text":"今天如果有一個國家對台灣的粗糙是這麼的多的時候那你覺得台灣政府不應該要拿出一些對策嗎如果用這樣的想法相對的美國政府也對我們提出很多的對策包括他要跟你關稅談判然後希望你要多進口美國的東西要平衡貿易"},{"start":2708.526,"end":2723.514,"text":"這個目標不僅達不成如果照你剛剛預估數目今年的順差會達到1200多億那我覺得你未來的問題可能面對的要很嚴峻那總裁你的想法如何平衡台灣跟美國之間的國際貿易呢"},{"start":2725.395,"end":2740.322,"text":"我想報告委員剛剛你所講的就是說我們對美國的增加對他的一個採購這個是一個方式不管就是說是在國防後面還有其他還有另外"},{"start":2743.784,"end":2751.246,"text":"人家讓我們賺了這麼多錢我們如果合理的就是要跟人家買所以就是說現在我們要把我們就是說台灣的一個經驗要到美國去設廠我想如果說我們台積電在那邊設廠還有周遭的一些相關的產業鏈也能夠過去的話"},{"start":2768.211,"end":2770.212,"text":"這個我覺得我在猜想這個也是我們平衡我們中美貿易的一個很好的方式這個方式是這樣子的因為現在美國川普總統他們政府的政策就是要製造業重回美國"},{"start":2785.316,"end":2811.485,"text":"那製造業重圍美國當然非常多的面向其中包括AI跟電子產業裡面台灣扮演重要的角色那在造船方面韓國扮演重要的角色在其他的領域日本又扮演重要的角色等等所以這是一個國際之間如何跟美國在全世界建構的貿易再平衡然後配合美國的政策的一個重要指標那因為美國的勞動界就是說他們的"},{"start":2813.326,"end":2826.831,"text":"這個工人他的工作習慣跟台灣的文化是不一樣的另外台灣因為中小企業是很龐大所以我們是一個整個產業群組整個聚落所以我們譬如說我在台灣"},{"start":2827.97,"end":2853.344,"text":"做的是一部分然後大家打群架嘛才會做出最終端的好產品那美國基本上他們現在的製造業沒有這樣的概念所以才說要去美國複製科學園區的概念是這樣子的觀念那問題是這個是去美國投資是只有平衡這個金融帳啊我們去那邊投資弄了很多美金去美國投資但那還是台灣的錢啊"},{"start":2854.545,"end":2878.486,"text":"那台灣的企業到美國投資目的也是要賺更多的錢當然在美國會有製造會有工作機會但是那個只是一部分對啦沒有錯啦所以其實我是覺得政府的政策跟目前談判的方向跟美國的政策是整個是一貫的啦這個對美貿易談判喔我常常做一個比喻"},{"start":2879.287,"end":2898.586,"text":"是吃西餐的套餐啦是一攬子的不能光挑裡面的一樣出來比啦那老是要比說那現在韓國是15%那台灣20%比較高問題是你韓國大家一定要投資美國4000多億的美金啊那現在李在民回到韓國說"},{"start":2900.031,"end":2916.326,"text":"沒有辦法兌現因為他說如果兌現的話韓國可能會產生新的金融危機因為韓國的外匯存底跟比不上台灣他自己基本上也沒有4000多億美金可以拿出來去做投資那被打臉了之後現在美國政府回過頭來會怎麼對付韓國我們還在看"},{"start":2919.139,"end":2945.899,"text":"那當然因為美國有很多的問題啊譬如說他的最高法院最近也在對這個貿易談判的這個關稅問題在打法律官司在跟美國政府之間有人在跟美國政府之間打法律官司嘛所以這個10月底才會見真章嘛所以我覺得我們做一個公允的論證比較是一攬子的比較而不是只單一項目的比較沒有錯啦 是沒有錯"},{"start":2947.441,"end":2964.863,"text":"再來我要問你一個就是會對你產生的問題因為粗糙這麼多台灣又一直被列在外匯操縱的觀察名單因為粗糙樹木是三大指標裡面的一個很重要的指標所以你如何來面對下面"},{"start":2966.145,"end":2977.401,"text":"這個國家大好但是你央行在這一方面你要面對考驗那你跟我們回答一下你要如何委員講得沒有錯基本上美國財政部的匯率報告它三項的指標"},{"start":2982.428,"end":2987.749,"text":"第一項跟第二項就是經常帳的順差對GDP還有就對美國的一個順差的金額這兩項我們從以前到現在都一直存在的如果說第三項的話第三項如果我們又觸及到它的時候就如同委員說的我們就變成操縱了"},{"start":3006.494,"end":3010.277,"text":"操縱的話在現在關稅談判的過程當中如果我們又被他抓住把柄的話就是說我們台灣是操縱匯率的話這個就會變成一個很大的事件所以基本上我們央行也非常的注意他但是我想我們有兩個目標第一個目標我們是盡量的"},{"start":3036.654,"end":3041.298,"text":"要維持我們匯率的穩定讓我們的進出口廠商它的報價能夠穩定它的營運能夠順暢這是第一個我們的目標這個我覺得最重要的是第二個目標我們"},{"start":3054.568,"end":3057.031,"text":"因為我們跟美國之間財政部在討論的過程當中我們彼此之間的一個關係也蠻良好的也蠻良好的溝通順暢溝通非常順暢但是即使是順暢但是我們還是不要去踩到他的紅線"},{"start":3074.291,"end":3096.626,"text":"但是總裁我現在是講你前面剛剛講那兩樣是我們台灣一直存在沒有錯但是去年存在的客觀現實是對美順超700多億美金但是今年你已經預估到1200多億所以前面那個不利的因素在累加你不能夠說我出超700多億的時候跟出超1200多億的時候是一樣的看待"},{"start":3097.006,"end":3100.01,"text":"我覺得美國不一定會這樣看待你我們不能一廂情願不過我也跟委員報告在目前的情況之下我們也要認為事實上美國在AI的方面它也是非常依賴我們台灣"},{"start":3113.01,"end":3134.405,"text":"當然我覺得技術上面還有製造上面我們跟美國是互補如果是未來的高科技產業所謂的電子高科技產業AI這一方面我覺得美國跟台灣的合作會是未來世界的先驅我們已經知道好的位置當然希望繼續維持下去但是我是覺得說"},{"start":3136.205,"end":3153.313,"text":"這個方面如何跟我們跟美國之間的匯率等等這些問題當然最重要是要維持穩定因為台灣的市場小你如果太多的美金進到台灣投資這些股市然後來來去去會造成幣值的不穩定沒有錯 委員也是觀察得非常的仔細"},{"start":3154.754,"end":3170.35,"text":"最後一個小問題就是你的新台幣改版你說要向公眾提出徵詢我先表達我的意見給你聽我是希望未來的新台幣不要再把政治人物放到上面去當這個頭像其實那個時代已經過去了早足以太"},{"start":3174.796,"end":3195.864,"text":"這彰顯台灣的特色台灣的東西把它放到這上面來這是我的建議無論是哪一個政治人物都不要再放上去委員的建議 委員的我想我們會納入參考好 謝謝 加油謝謝你的這個責任很重是 謝謝 謝謝委員主席我們謝謝吳秉瑞委員總裁請回接下來我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":3215.685,"end":3223.589,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請楊總裁請楊總裁老遠早你早我比較關心新台幣要改版的事情是現在是限定在千元跟百元嗎還是什麼銅板沒有"},{"start":3243.87,"end":3251.154,"text":"我想我們會一系列的不是 因為你報告有寫你報告已經寫了 基本上銅板不會改因為銅板不會改因為那個清車道成本比較高對不對 紙鈔你要改是不是 所以我就跟你確定說是不是1000塊的也要改100塊的也要改 是不是可能"},{"start":3268.004,"end":3269.885,"text":"我們會諮詢委員 兩個都改我們就是一系列這樣的來討論這個總裁 我原來都覺得你很獨立沒有政治考量 你這個的話就是呼應"},{"start":3288.778,"end":3307.659,"text":"這個執政黨的這種轉型正義的做法嘛原來彭總裁的手在那裡說不用蓋蓋了蓋了還跟我抱怨要五百億結果你原來去年的時候今年吧是不是那個什麼十二強去年還是今年啦"},{"start":3308.672,"end":3314.416,"text":"去年的時候12強 他講的時候我看你還守得住 你就覺得說你發一個銀幣 紀念銀幣你不要用我發紙鈔 結果你現在還是做了沒有 我跟委員報告基本上我們這一次的改版絕對不會有政治上的一個考量"},{"start":3337.061,"end":3348.993,"text":"因為我們這邊寫得很清楚我們的鈔券都已經24年如果相較於主要的國家來比較我們真的是很慢了美國最近也沒有改版"},{"start":3350.492,"end":3351.133,"text":"美國改版是把華盛頓的人頭小小的變成大大的"},{"start":3368.914,"end":3371.235,"text":"是這樣子 是人頭是把小小的變大大的這改版是這樣改的 對不對你現在來講的話 這個很清楚就是轉型正義的後面的以法工作絕對沒有 我在國衛殿堂呢 我不會打狂語好 好 而且喔"},{"start":3394.468,"end":3406.534,"text":"我比较另外一个角度给你看我本来对你是很尊敬的是我希望以后要继续不能继续尊敬因为你的任期到什么时候"},{"start":3408.183,"end":3412.045,"text":"可能還兩年左右兩年半啦 你兩年半嘟嘟好這個東西嘟嘟好 你要接任期的時候接起來 看要不要接第三任就變這樣沒有 委員講得太遠了講得太遠會讓我們"},{"start":3427.793,"end":3429.835,"text":"委員講得太遠了讓我沒辦法想像兩年半是你講的你說從開始這個委員會謝謝委員不過委員一直都在支持我們還有鼓勵我們我們也希望這一個改版的事情委員能夠支持我們"},{"start":3444.572,"end":3450.317,"text":"如果太多政治的話就不會支持了不會啦不會啦那我就問你準備花多少錢啊你跟我講啦準備花多少錢我們這邊沒有講啊就是說一張的那個成本會加1.5啊不是啦那你全部要花多少錢啊包括字幕版什麼之類的我說喔你這裡沒有寫你包括沒有寫看我們的那個發行的量啦"},{"start":3469.213,"end":3477.546,"text":"但是我跟各位我跟委員報告如果說以現在目前的量過去發的量多少現在目前現在是50億流通在"},{"start":3482.301,"end":3484.743,"text":"你們兩個人在講話時間要把我扣掉現在就是說我們流通在外的是10億張但是它會慢慢的下來但是就是說因為它的張數沒辦法控制不曉得因為它會有下降的一個趨勢我們只列出就是說每張1.5"},{"start":3507.597,"end":3518.288,"text":"增加1.5增加1.5你看看我們報告委員那就是60億沒有報告委員我跟你報告一下3.5我們如果一張3.5增加到1.5的話大概是增加40%左右但是你要想想看24年"},{"start":3529.64,"end":3539.769,"text":"對不對 二十四年增加那你現在的物料什麼的啊二十四年 然後增加百分之四十五我覺得是合理的現在都還沒辦法評估嘛那個彭淮南總裁以前說要改版要花五百億我跟委員報告我們那個時候的五百億"},{"start":3556.553,"end":3559.499,"text":"五分之四以上都是銅板"},{"start":3561.328,"end":3572.574,"text":"五分之四以上都是銅牌那乘以五分之一好了那是一百億那乘以五分之一就一百億五分之一好了就五分之一一百億所以我果然沒錯就是要改這個要一百億那是以前的估算那是以前的估算現在估算更高現在不曉得要看那個張數不是現在物價的成本物價上漲能夠增加所以我就說1.5所以我說如果說我們不現在改版的話成本會更高"},{"start":3592.47,"end":3596.134,"text":"成本會更高所以現在時間現在的時點是剛好啦我是不瞭解到底24年我們這邊來看的話14年16年11年到24年那我們是最慢的這個鈔票是什麼地方愛了你的眼啦這個東西"},{"start":3610.572,"end":3631.713,"text":"一千塊的也沒有政治人物啊一千塊的有誰有誰啊你講到這裡的時候我也跟你報告所以呢我們的土壤你看看像包括就是說我們那個科技我們的科技你看看我們那個科技我們一千塊跟兩千塊的科技跟我們現在台灣的一個科技來比較的話我覺得啊"},{"start":3633.434,"end":3638.277,"text":"我們科技發展得很快所以我總覺得我們要與時俱進與時俱進這個東西你說沒有你的考量是大家是不會相信的最少我都不會相信的"},{"start":3650.925,"end":3659.818,"text":"跟這個有關係的來世界十二強的時候我們有紀念幣 紀念銀幣那麼你一幣一枚是1600塊預購上線36000枚那是好多人要結果抽籤抽到"},{"start":3668.169,"end":3669.651,"text":"結果繳款只有2.85剩下7500你怎麼處理沒有 我們就是說他有繳款的我們就製造這麼多我們就製造這麼多因為為什麼會就是說"},{"start":3683.626,"end":3686.328,"text":"上線因為有很多人就怕抽不到所以他就重複的去那個他重複下單結果他抽到重複下單他抽到6個當然他大概是繳款所以你不會再發行不會啦因為我覺得這樣的話造成我們的困擾這是第一個第二個"},{"start":3711.489,"end":3715.965,"text":"好像市場上也認為就是說煙太久了之後也會冷掉"},{"start":3717.886,"end":3741.354,"text":"這個世界十二強老實講都認為紀念幣不錯啊你就是七七五八把它發完啊我也覺得不錯啦就把它發完啦你又不要當然啦我們會但是呢現在就是已經確定了確定只發兩萬八千枚確定就是說他繳款的是有多少萬枚那我們就製造多少我們再看喔那個總裁啊美國下週決定降息一般預估他會降息嘛對不對"},{"start":3742.354,"end":3746.698,"text":"我在想Market都是認為就是說它會降息而且它的Chairman Power他好像也Hint說10月跟12月可能都會降息所以各將一碼啦 對不對對 市場也是這樣的意思好 那降了之後台幣就有升值壓力囉"},{"start":3764.666,"end":3768.828,"text":"這個也難說啦 怎麼會很難說上一次他不是降息嗎結果他降息之後美元反而強起來所以不要在這裡做猜測這種不是預測 這種是猜測猜測的時候會誤導我們的投資人"},{"start":3793.596,"end":3820.245,"text":"所以說美國降息美金會再往前往上漲我不敢這麼說我只是說前面的那個例子就是說他降息的結果在美元後面美元就漲起來那你看川普上任之後川普的一個做法是盡量不要cash所以黃金一直漲比特幣一直漲黃金我們香港有沒有身家買啊"},{"start":3821.809,"end":3837.101,"text":"央行有沒有多買一點黃金 最近我們沒有咧今年開始都沒有增加對 沒有你今天很多不 不過我跟委員報告基本上主要的專案銀行都沒有買黃金去買的是俄羅斯俄羅斯 中國大陸"},{"start":3842.225,"end":3865.774,"text":"哈薩克也買對 當然哈薩克是small還有印度 這些大概就是說因為印度也是印度的民間一般來講他中央銀行他是也有買但是民間主要的還是民間的力量不是中央銀行的力量最近黃金的上漲是民間的力量不是中央銀行的力量所以黃金後市你不干擾"},{"start":3867.975,"end":3888.482,"text":"這個我不去猜測它 我也不去預測它因為你可以看到川普的代金實質等於說他告訴全世界 握有現金都會貶值所以最好是握有其他非現金的一些資產包括黃金 包括比特幣這種講法對不對我覺得他也不是這麼說"},{"start":3894.225,"end":3916.241,"text":"現象就現象最後一個小問題韓國總統說如果因為美國要他cash他本來說政府融資要保證他都不接受要cash3500億他的外存底大概4000多億對不對所以他說會引起亞洲金融風暴日本也不答應結果我們通通答應了我們要去亞我們要投資4000億我們的外存底只有6000億不到對不對5800嘛"},{"start":3922.606,"end":3936.637,"text":"我們的四千億我也不曉得是不是真的就所說的但是即使是有這個四千億但是大部分都是我們民間的不是官方我知道 但是外匯存底外匯存底當然是民間的他還是要跟你買匯"},{"start":3943.154,"end":3945.516,"text":"他說我們去那邊去投資的那些他的賺那個美元他賺得很多他不必要在市場買他現在是賣所以我就說他不必用到我們的外市場的不必要韓國說如果他投資3500億會有亞洲金融風暴這一句話"},{"start":3966.69,"end":3981.22,"text":"你認不認同即使我想他沒有說亞洲金融風暴他是說他會發生金融危機他沒有說亞洲會發生金融危機好像是說他說他韓國會發生金融危機你認不認同這句話當然啦 我知道台灣很健全"},{"start":3992.267,"end":4000.611,"text":"不是 韓國會不會有金融風暴他如果去3500億我們台股也是不錯 我覺得我問你韓國 你跟我講台股台股 你說台股嗎沒有 我說韓國會不會金融風暴說韓國怎麼樣會不會 因為他的總統說如果去投資3500億的話會產生金融風暴他是說他 他不是說亞洲對 那你同意不同意"},{"start":4020.559,"end":4039.692,"text":"這個我也很難想像 我也很難想像說他剩3500億 這個不要去問我應該是要去問他的中央銀行總裁還有跟他問他的財政部部長你今天給人家亂說話讓我對你的主見少了好幾分總裁有他的看法 寶哥好 謝謝接下來請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":4057.668,"end":4058.55,"text":"主席有請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":4065.081,"end":4077.904,"text":"郭委員早總裁你好這一次台幣要改版我個人認為時間真的是太慢了因為主要的國家大概都是16年到24年你這個時間點再加個兩年半到2028前前後後拖了28年主要國家大概是我們最慢的更何況美國的話大概是5到7年他就會改版小局部的改版為了什麼"},{"start":4091.767,"end":4105.683,"text":"就為了防偽 對不對所以說這個改版是因應整個科技的進步所以一定要先做就拖了那麼久那到底這次改版我想要問一下總裁到底會花多少錢"},{"start":4106.764,"end":4108.745,"text":"我們這邊有講就是說每一張我們會增加1.5塊總數啦譬如講你們在2018年就有一個內部官方說改版要450億就是說這個總數到目前我們很難去評估它啦就是說因為它"},{"start":4123.075,"end":4132.162,"text":"我們的鈔券它的使用量會慢慢地遞減對 沒有錯所以這個也很難去掌握我現在就是說在2018年你們曾經為了改版估計了450億的改版的總經費那是全部回收跟全部換算我覺得那個真的是估計得太誇張了我跟委員報告一來要如實但是除了這個之外"},{"start":4152.457,"end":4172.844,"text":"第二個要實用 為什麼因為一般而言台幣跟日幣不一樣日幣最近20年之後就改版了台幣跟日幣有一個不好用的地方就太大張 太大張因為台幣的部分日幣的高度是76公分 76mm然後另外長度是100到160mm可是新台幣是70"},{"start":4182.227,"end":4193.672,"text":"然後長度是145到165但美鈔的部分都是一樣的美鈔規格它不論是幣值多少都一樣那我們其實可以考慮把這個"},{"start":4196.533,"end":4199.856,"text":"以後的鈔票的面積稍微縮小一來好用 二來環保三來又可以節省成本我不曉得總裁你這樣建議怎麼樣我覺得委員的想法本來我們在這邊是寫那個尺寸不變不過我總覺得因為我們有執行委員會執行委員"},{"start":4220.117,"end":4222.239,"text":"事實上委員你這個概念你這個建立我覺得也是蠻大家的皮夾都越來越少使用的機率越來越少我們發行局的局長在這裡我們的印製廠的同事也在這邊"},{"start":4243.639,"end":4270.959,"text":"他都听得到所以我觉得委员的这个建议我觉得是蛮好的因为你的报告是越环保化减少纸张的面积就是越环保而且还省钱你只要用颜色做一个区隔就好了不是吗是 我们来研究这个我们来考量你现在流通量现在为止已经每日大概3.5兆了对不对 是差不多嘛"},{"start":4273.34,"end":4290.892,"text":"然后硬币的部分是1400也就是随着电子支付的话整个纸钞的使用率已经逐年下降了是不是那我还再问一个问题但是在流通的过程当中你有没有看过这个面额流通数最少的是哪一个"},{"start":4291.512,"end":4296.736,"text":"大概是200塊200跟2000對不對200跟2000這個流通這麼低你們還會想要考慮再印製嗎我跟委員報告事實上各個國家它對於二各個國家的紙鈔二的流通力都不高"},{"start":4311.147,"end":4313.75,"text":"對 但是二 它是一個搭配事實上這個問題我們內部我們也自己有考量過事實上有一些我記得我們上次有委員去我們的印製廠考察的時候"},{"start":4329.325,"end":4349.66,"text":"有一些的委員到認為就是說這個200塊是很好用的因為那個成本他可以總裁我這邊全部美金的面額我都有一個2的就是有20元也沒有200的不 他的200就很大了那200 他的200乘以我們的30就相當於多少"},{"start":4350.14,"end":4377.265,"text":"沒有 沒有啦 我說麵這個麵 紫草的麵沒兩百的啦是啊 日本也沒兩萬的嘛 對不對為什麼一定要一個兩千的呢日本有兩千的啦沒有兩萬 我說沒有兩萬的啦他們的二也只有一個而已嘛你又一個兩百 又一個兩千那個流通率都很低就不用考慮了我們再考量啦 考量一下好不好委員的今天的建議我總結了我們都會可以納入參考啦"},{"start":4380.186,"end":4386.707,"text":"我也不是說現在馬上就說這個不是用實用面的角度來思考好不好用實用面的角度另外一個幣是未來的幣就穩定幣的部分那穩定幣現在可能是省時又便利因為現在的這個跨境交易大概1到5天然後手續費大概0.2到甚至到50美元穩定幣的手續費大概0.1"},{"start":4405.431,"end":4423.241,"text":"但是它会不会冲击到既有目前这一个金融业的跨境汇兑的业务因为毕竟美元占有这一个台湾整体的国际汇兑的部分高达97美元是应该是稳定币就想要绑定的货币"},{"start":4424.061,"end":4434.106,"text":"這個部分的衝擊你們有沒有評估委員的意思就是說是評估就是說對 它會之後就會減少這些現在既有的跨境交易委員的意思就是說它現在穩定幣的跨境的支付如果穩定幣發行之後取代率會不會很高會不會衝擊會來取代SWIFT的跨境你的意思就是我在想你們要評估"},{"start":4453.696,"end":4469.803,"text":"對 如果委員 我跟委員報告如果穩定幣如果說大家都認為它好用的話當然有一部分會取代一定會取代嘛對 有一部分會取代但是前提要出來就是說第一個它成功而且它好用"},{"start":4470.143,"end":4482.898,"text":"对 前提是这样子你要先考虑一个第二个考虑要入法也就是我们管理外汇条例当中现在没有稳定币只有外国货币或票据或者有价证券 对不对是不是要考虑入法"},{"start":4484.047,"end":4510.752,"text":"现在我们的报告委员现在有我们的那个虚拟资产服务法这个里面它就会入法这个入在这个虚拟资产服务法当中第三还有一个整个国际流通的过程当中会发现所谓的伪造 冒用或篡改它还有一个属于在做一个监控那未来稳定币的部分有没有可能需要类似的机构"},{"start":4512.493,"end":4524.519,"text":"我想在虛擬資產服務法那邊的執法我們會跟金管會好好的去溝通你們就一起討論這是你們共同業務本席是做一個提醒是 沒有錯 委員講得沒有錯"},{"start":4529.821,"end":4543.552,"text":"你央行的報告當中的這個估計未來的GDP所佔有的這個成長率相對而言4.5那平均其他的地方都是5.02你說是12月份的時候你們還會再做考量沒有錯但是我是說你們在之前的這個報告當中有一個滿有趣的報告的表就是說"},{"start":4552.119,"end":4555.944,"text":"製造業對經濟成長貢獻大佔GDP的比重是2.68那同時引起話題的是營造工程業是有0.07不動產是0.06"},{"start":4567.479,"end":4585.637,"text":"這些行業就很不服氣啊明明他們是火車頭看起來好像央行的總裁跟他打臉說他們根本不是火車頭是不是 你意思是不是這樣子沒有意思我們沒有這個意思這數字上呈現出來的意思是這樣子啊我跟委員報告四少月才是火車頭不是嗎貢獻的比例最高2.86啊我跟委員報告啦事實上這個"},{"start":4591.542,"end":4593.583,"text":"我們只是說看到一個社論還有報紙有一些的報紙都在說就是說我們的不動產業是經濟的火車頭我們一直覺得就是說這個概念可能要稍微要澄清一下要澄清"},{"start":4612.172,"end":4619.441,"text":"因為不是嘛 所以才要澄清嘛不是針對他澄清嘛 你就主要澄清事實上不是嘛 對不對沒有 對 每一個產業都重要委員 每一個產業都重要我們只是說對那個它的貢獻是怎麼樣這主要是在這裡你12月份的時候會不會再公布一次不會啦"},{"start":4632.316,"end":4648.193,"text":"為什麼不會為什麼6月公佈 12月就不公佈因為我總覺得你的GDP未來不是12月要重新評估嗎你重新評估的時候讓國人知道說哪些行業對這一個國家的GDP貢獻比較大這有什麼不好"},{"start":4650.215,"end":4668.149,"text":"對啦當然啦你就是怕人家打臉說你打臉你才不好意思公佈嘛那你就據時公佈有什麼關係呢是啦沒有錯我們只是說據時來公佈這些據時公佈有什麼關係呢對啦就是這個意思啦好不好12月再公佈一次嘛我們考慮考慮啦你考慮一下嘛考慮考慮"},{"start":4670.15,"end":4690.007,"text":"最後的部分那個我還有一個小問題要問那個最近這個外資我不要說我們去猜測到底那個估黃金的價格但是目前為止我們央行所持有的黃金的這個噸數公噸數總高達是424公噸那全球算排行第15名"},{"start":4697.973,"end":4713.667,"text":"价大约是1.8兆台币1.8兆台币但是成本据说只有一千多亿而已是那个获利将近十倍以上是 没有错这个东西有没有可能卖或是只买不卖"},{"start":4714.207,"end":4717.689,"text":"我不曉得這個央行現在的態度是怎麼樣我們不賣啦但是我們也有考量到如果說我們的外匯存底足夠多的話那我們也考量就是說要買再買但是要再買但是現在目前我給委員你是外資足夠多不是 我們的外匯存底如果說足夠多的話我們考慮再買考慮再買 這是一個嘛另外一個"},{"start":4741.943,"end":4764.377,"text":"当初央行其实有超过七成的时候是在70年代的时候为了平衡台美贸易这个顺差所迈进的现在问题是重新出现我们顺差这么多现在台美正在面临这个谈判问题你之前写的报告就说这农产品好 能源要采买 薰构这就可以平衡顺差"},{"start":4765.858,"end":4789.367,"text":"這一步這麼好用 你為什麼不用沒有 後來你用過雖然就是說用過但是美國不承認不承認不承認說用黃錢這明明報告當中是寫的就是用這種方式來購買黃金來平衡貿易順差然後你現在不承認當時我們買的是動機是這樣但是美國不承認當時是沒有承認當時沒有承認但是有沒有實質的效果"},{"start":4790.888,"end":4809.922,"text":"當然我們買進來了以後它的評價越來越高沒有 有效果如果可以平衡順差的話為什麼不考慮一個方法它沒有平衡順差的那個效果沒有辦法的效果沒有這個效果如果有效果就會考慮有效果就會考慮當然 如果有效果的話我們會考慮那就好好考慮現在黃金的部分就是維持只買不賣是 謝謝總裁"},{"start":4819.289,"end":4825.737,"text":"好 謝謝郭國文委員接下來請賴會員委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請央行總裁好 請央總裁"},{"start":4839.121,"end":4850.865,"text":"好 楊總裁 總裁早安我想從數位貨幣到那個選擇性的一個信用管制那今天跟你探討這幾個議題我想這個CBDC"},{"start":4858.789,"end":4885.041,"text":"我可以不可以 總裁我可以不可以講說它就是未來的數位新台幣是 可以 委員講得沒有錯就數位新台幣 對嘛是 我們央行的一個就是我們希望就是把它的一個那個政策面就是定格在這個地方是 沒有錯那定格在這個地方的時候你希望就是說它會期待"},{"start":4886.221,"end":4896.318,"text":"以後的這個就是我們的那個零售支付的一個補充工具嗎是 沒有錯就是類似支付寶的一個概念對 應該是 對"},{"start":4899.281,"end":4920.167,"text":"那對老人又如何?所以委員考慮得很周到所以我們這次現金的改版也有這樣的意思現金你們還是沒辦法取代的電子支付你還是沒辦法取代現金的"},{"start":4921.287,"end":4938.842,"text":"所以我們就說這一次的改版每一個國家的改版他也不會說因為現在的電子資物很發達所以他就不要獻金了 不是反而是應該要考量到我們的弱勢群體金融沒有普及的地方還有老年人他的數位的知識不足的"},{"start":4942.868,"end":4947.711,"text":"所以總裁 所以你有分階段那你CPTC已經在進行了這個策略已經在進行了那就是說已經在規劃了那你的新台幣還要再改版事實上也延續就是郭委員剛才質詢的內容"},{"start":4962.16,"end":4976.106,"text":"他也必須要改版因為太久的時間了太久的時間還有就是說當今的環境其實大家在使用貨幣的習慣已經慢慢做了很大很大的一個改變不管是大鈔還是就是說100元還是有時候我們連那個紙那個就是銅板"},{"start":4983.849,"end":4988.473,"text":"不常用的時候還會有點搞錯不過銅板我們這一次不改版銅板這一次不改版為什麼不改版因為銅板第一個它面額小這是第一個第二個它改版了以後它的成本反而超過沒有改版的效益沒有改版的效益對 因為它慢慢的會淘汰它慢慢的會淘汰掉"},{"start":5010.322,"end":5038.829,"text":"他慢慢會淘汰掉所以說我們可是如果我們就是在看全世界不管是歐美不管是日本的話他們的銅板他們其實還是一個非常流行的貨幣他還是有在流通但是他也沒有改版他也沒有改版所以鄰近的國家他們基本上一般國家主要國家他在改版都是紙鈔沒有涉及到銅板"},{"start":5040.325,"end":5055.101,"text":"好 那我们很清楚啦就是说CBDC它可能是未来现今的一个数位化的一个替代品也可能是我们支付体系的一个改革最重要的工具那它跟比特币呢"},{"start":5055.701,"end":5075.342,"text":"它跟比特幣如果我做這樣子的一個比較的話 仲裁當然就是說你這一個CPTC是一個法定的貨幣它得到了國家的一個支持那它可以集中管理那它也是安全性是比較高的那它價值也是穩定"},{"start":5076.383,"end":5092.15,"text":"那日常的支付還有跨境的交易其實就是政府的資金的分配都是穩定的那成本也比較低那尤其是國內的一個交易那你認為就是說如果這兩個貨幣的話"},{"start":5096.465,"end":5101.214,"text":"你還可以突顯你的CBDC更優勢的地方在哪裡那當然第一個我想"},{"start":5107.168,"end":5135.897,"text":"央行的數位貨幣它在支付方面它是沒有問題的但是比特幣因為價格波動太大它沒有以前一開始的時候就說比特幣就是要來當支付它是一個虛擬的資產它不是貨幣但是它一開始發展的時候它是想要變成一個支付的工具"},{"start":5136.437,"end":5140.659,"text":"但是從他開始2008 2009一直到現在他都沒有實現也就是說他沒辦法因為他被太多人操縱了因為他基本上而且他也人為操縱第二個他也會洗錢什麼的之類的這些所以比特幣基本上當初就是說希望他作為一個支付的工具到目前為止都沒有"},{"start":5159.749,"end":5180.008,"text":"謝謝總裁我們再拉回來核心消費者的物價指數其實整體來講都算是穩定可是通膨的風險跟利率政策的一個平衡這也考驗著央行在整個政策面上如何的去執行我先用國泰金在10月份他有一個國民經濟的一個信心調查這個民調裡頭"},{"start":5183.451,"end":5207.074,"text":"有六成的民眾認為物價偏高六成的民眾認為物價偏高總裁你有沒有這樣的感覺委員如果說這麼說的話我可以這麼說就是說基本上低所得的民眾會覺得說我們的物價偏高"},{"start":5209.134,"end":5223.559,"text":"為什麼說低所得的會比較認為物價會偏高因為低所得者他大部分的他大部分的收入來源很大一部分都是在民生用品方面沒有錯 當然民生的話 這個是波動是比較大"},{"start":5228.496,"end":5247.886,"text":"可是這個體感通膨已經衝擊到就是說我們的壽星家庭還有中產階級的家庭他的感受會比較大中產家庭其實這個體感通膨也影響到了因為我們可以期他可能會越來越貴所以有很多人其實是沒什麼改善"},{"start":5251.528,"end":5273.485,"text":"你看在家裡頭開火的人也越來越多了所以我也不問你說蚵仔蒸很晚多久因為每一個區域性不同可是可預期就是我們感受到市場其實物價指數就是說像你講的這個吃的 民生的 吃的 吃新的一直都起來"},{"start":5274.165,"end":5288.05,"text":"是 没有错最近就是说在很多房间的一个民调他认为央行是双杀我们的首购主还有换屋主怎么讲"},{"start":5290.892,"end":5294.335,"text":"沒有啦 總裁你不會說沒有啦我聽你這個笑聲就有點心虛啦不會耶因為你在笑你不會如果你是很有自信你會笑到那麼大聲你現在笑到小聲小聲這個是有點壯膽"},{"start":5309.049,"end":5322.559,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個意味沒有 我覺得我們的選擇信用管制你看看我們選擇信用管制我們都強調我們的信用資源要給所購足"},{"start":5323.72,"end":5328.942,"text":"要給都耕者 要給社會住宅的我跟你講 我講一個案例給你聽這一家人本來是要換房子"},{"start":5341.708,"end":5358.51,"text":"結果他因為你的豪宅貸款的一個限制結果被逼上了節錄這個是這個小市民的心聲他投到我的那個粉專上頭來不過委員我跟委員報告事實上有一些"},{"start":5359.853,"end":5374.291,"text":"事實上他都認為就是說他是我們選擇信用管制的一個被我們選擇信用管制到了事實上我們有很多的case去了解事實上不是"},{"start":5375.753,"end":5390.586,"text":"所以大家都认为他借不到钱是因为中央营养的关系是央行卡死了为什么不是炒房是换屋结果被豪宅线卡死了我今天买一个4500万的房子就是说我在台南我议约了一个3800万的地售屋"},{"start":5398.653,"end":5412.723,"text":"結果交屋的時候銀行的建價是4200萬結果被認為是豪宅那貸款從原來的預期的7成降為3成況且這個3成還是企業價是本來的3800萬的企業價那你看來去就差了1140萬那資金的切口就變成1500萬"},{"start":5426.093,"end":5453.908,"text":"你想這麼差大的一個差異誰有這麼大的一筆錢可是如果你讓我慢慢繳的時候我是買得起這個3800萬的房子所以你的當然就是被你卡死了對 不過我跟委員報告事實上建商跟我們的預購房屋的消費者他們之間也有一個定型化契約"},{"start":5455.29,"end":5464.316,"text":"那個定型化契約裡面他就有定的就是說在不可規則的因素之下如果說他的貸款跟他的貸款跟他房子要購物的"},{"start":5471.36,"end":5492.33,"text":"你如果把它講到這個定型業那個定型性的一個企業這個是另外那我來跟你討論的就是你豪宅的認定標準已經十幾年你根本都沒有調整那你那個央行的標準脫節了這麼久你看你在101年的時候"},{"start":5494.264,"end":5519.159,"text":"你要不要让我讲好 我能讲所以就是说我希望也建议你是不是这个豪宅在台北市我们可以调整为9000万不然你看整个台北市每一个人都是住豪宅怎么会是这个样子呢少数人不住豪宅绝大部分的人在台北市都住豪宅因为都超过7000万"},{"start":5520.64,"end":5537.084,"text":"那新北市我們調整為7500萬其他的縣市是不是可以調整為5500萬你拿回去做參考好不好美人的建立我們拿回去參考了好不好我想這個已經造成名焰相當深那我們還是要充分的研究謝謝總裁 謝謝主席"},{"start":5548.117,"end":5553.922,"text":"好 謝謝我們賴會員委員的質詢結束接下來請林思明委員好 謝謝主席我們請央行楊總裁"},{"start":5568.042,"end":5583.672,"text":"總裁 我想大家一直關心那個我們這個新台幣鈔券改版的一個規劃那央行在業務報告中提到將進行的改版的規劃會成立一個臨時性的任務單位"},{"start":5584.973,"end":5606.93,"text":"新台幣鈔券主題諮詢委員會來廣伸各界的意見並建立公民參與的機制以決定改版的主題然後一旦任務完成就會解散所以我想請問總裁我們這一次的鈔券新台幣我們的報告是講已經虧為24年了所以現在要啟動改版"},{"start":5612.196,"end":5613.996,"text":"我想了解是所有的面額的橫式鈔券都要全部改版嗎是流通的五種這五種都要改嗎現在就是說我們預計是這樣子但是我們一步一步的時候這中間是不是會有一些的變數現在還不曉得"},{"start":5633.041,"end":5639.886,"text":"預計是這樣子所以不一定是五種全部會改預計是這樣子其實總裁我們來看一下其實100元的這個面額的這個券鈔是沒有錯是在這個89年首次印刷90年發行現在24年了500元的也是在89年首次印刷89年發行"},{"start":5654.778,"end":5669.263,"text":"但是他在民國93年有做改版改成第二版新版是在94年發行那1000元是在88年首次印刷89年發行93年也改二版這個在94年發行"},{"start":5672.825,"end":5690.423,"text":"200元是在90年90年改版 91年發行那2000元的是在90年首次印刷91年發行 對所以我們來看就是我們目前鈔券的流通性"},{"start":5691.912,"end":5705.61,"text":"以100元 500元還有1000元的流通性最高200元的還有2000元的它的流通性是不是就偏低對 200元的是最低 2000元的還好啦"},{"start":5711.096,"end":5736.002,"text":"2000元的还好其实我们观察就是其实这个我们200还有2000元的大概都是在逢年过节的时候大家才会去换这个市面上使用的也会比较多反正每一种超炫也是五种颜色所以我们称它为五色超"},{"start":5736.962,"end":5759.595,"text":"五色超只有在我們逢年過節包紅包的時候我們才會去使用到所以我是建議啦這我的建議就200塊跟2000塊的這個是不是未來在你們在資訊文會在研究的時候 在討論的時候為了節省成本這兩種是不是可以不用改"},{"start":5761.256,"end":5782.126,"text":"流通性低這是委員的 我們就把它記下來總裁你可以考量一下另外 剛剛也提到我們新版的江山卓國際間的綠色卷鈔的發行趨勢採用更環保的原物料並強化綠色製程更符合ESG永續發展的目標"},{"start":5783.286,"end":5799.223,"text":"至於硬幣我們因為這個數量多價值低改版不具效益則不考慮改這個當然我們也認同那剛才我也提了一下就是說我們實際上就是整個券超的改版我剛才聽到郭委員他有說一個統計"},{"start":5800.524,"end":5815.309,"text":"那是不是現在世界上的主要國家它的券鈔的改版都是大概就是都是你剛才提到16年16年就改嗎對 有的我們在這邊講的有的11年就改了有的16年在這邊有的是20年 有的21年"},{"start":5820.412,"end":5836.403,"text":"23年所以我们24年算短了不是为了政策上的考量澳洲也是24年刚才因为一直提到说这是为了政策上的考量因为去年之前没有不会为了因应棒球经典赛的不会如果说因应棒球经典赛我们就不会做那个什么纪念币了"},{"start":5837.624,"end":5847.93,"text":"是不是總裁我們希望不要有政策上的考量說為了這個而去配合什麼轉型陣營不會不會不會建設畢竟已經大家使用那麼多年了大家也滿習慣的如果是為了因為這個符合國際的潮流因為這個時間也用滿久了想要用新版的去改版"},{"start":5856.415,"end":5871.65,"text":"符合ESG的這個永續發展的目標我想這個當然或者綠色的強化綠色的製程這個我想大家是還可以接受的當然我想其實我們現在最主要我們要去關心的就是它的主題是什麼"},{"start":5873.427,"end":5900.962,"text":"目前有沒有規劃央行有沒有初步的規劃就是你未來1000元的我們現在這個1000元的或者500元的或者100元的有沒有初步規劃它的主題是什麼我想我們這個就是說為什麼我們會組成一個諮詢委員會的原因也是在這裡但是央行到現在沒有初步的規劃我們還沒有我們今天來報跟財委會報告以後我們就立即來成立"},{"start":5901.682,"end":5907.644,"text":"是 就來推動總裁現在就是我們看到有就是棒球當然是這個經典賽這個主題是我們現在看到100元的實際上就是我們的少棒選手的是100元是國父講說的對 國父選手500元的是我們的少棒國手的對"},{"start":5923.951,"end":5938.223,"text":"所以這一次我們再如果改版500元的會改嗎因為本身就是跟辦公室相關我在想 我跟委員報告講到這裡的時候我才跟委員報告一下就是說我們500塊我們會改"},{"start":5939.924,"end":5945.148,"text":"但是至于是不是会改成什么样要去改成经典赛的吗因为它的主题就棒球但是对了那是正面包括它的背面背面你看看就是说我们500块一定要改为什么呢我们的500块的背面它是梅花路梅花路以前是保育动物"},{"start":5965.492,"end":5990.485,"text":"保育的所以我們才列入這個鈔券但是現在梅花路我記得現在就說梅花路都已經環值太多了而且去侵犯到那個什麼農作物所以我的一個想法就是說既然500元的券鈔要改本來它的正面也是哨棒國手是不是你就要把這一部分500元的就主題去偏向於說設計城市跟棒球有關的"},{"start":5992.446,"end":6007.079,"text":"我想諮詢委員會會來決定另外我想了解就是說我們整個諮詢委員會大概會招募哪些成員這個成員我來請我們的發行局局長來跟你打呼好嗎"},{"start":6008.777,"end":6033.999,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們大概會請例如說生態的專家 科技的專家文化界的代表或是體育的專家代表等等 這個是大概人數有多少就各行各業你們都會去領選我們大概初步規劃大概會有十幾位十幾位 是那領選的機制由誰來去領選他們是就我們央行嗎 是的由央行來領選"},{"start":6035.64,"end":6051.096,"text":"那最后决定招票这个我想还是很关心那个主题因为现在一直谈到说会有公民参与的机制公民参与的机制那我们又是用什么样的方式来进行公民参与是用投票吗 还是什么方式"},{"start":6052.447,"end":6079.422,"text":"我們就會賦予這個資訊委員會委員來決定怎麼樣來做這個公民參與例如說網路的調查或是說書面的問卷等等但是你要做這些你初步就會有一個規劃就是那個主題是什麼你應該都會設計出來吧才去做這個公民參與的一個機制還是說你們一開始就是主題完全沒有讓公民去做一個設計是怎麼樣"},{"start":6081.463,"end":6098.86,"text":"跟委員報告我們的概念是說請諮詢委員會能夠提出例如十幾個主題然後給這一個公民來票選這是就是請諮詢委員會來執行這件事情然後做最後的建議這樣"},{"start":6100.549,"end":6112.627,"text":"所以還是諮詢委員會成立之後我們初步還是會把主題做一個相關的一個提出來再去透過公民參與的機制去決定是怎麼樣的一個主題是"},{"start":6113.686,"end":6138.661,"text":"就大概模式是這樣 確定是這樣大概模式是這樣不過這個現在是剛好要推的過程這中間會有做那兩年半一定會就把它設計出來對 就說這個Process大概就是說這個Process如果確定了以後那這個大概就是兩年半就要兩年半 走兩年半整個設計的過程要兩年半"},{"start":6139.298,"end":6161.075,"text":"不是設計的不用啊還是就是兩年半之內就會全部把它完成就會開始發行關於委員報告就是說我們要主題要確定之後這兩年半並不是包含去確定主題的時間那決定主題要多少時間那還要看這個進行的順不順利這樣"},{"start":6163.811,"end":6180.63,"text":"我剩下最後幾秒鐘再請問一下我們2025年我國的經濟穩健成長上半年是成長6.45%下半年預估是2.51%全年平均大概4.55%"},{"start":6182.432,"end":6206.882,"text":"那央行這個預估的通膨率在9月 就今年9月大概今年9月已經就預估就估出來的大概1.25%所以我們物價上漲的壓力不大所以在這個我們經濟看起來成長率是蠻穩定的但是物價卻反而下降我看到國外 日本央行"},{"start":6207.762,"end":6230.094,"text":"他考量關稅對經濟與物價影響是不確定性 人高所以在5月 6月 7月及9月均決意維持我們的政策利率他們的政策利率不變唯若關稅不確定下降薪資成長與通膨之良性循環符合預期他們要持升息的一個立場 這是日本"},{"start":6231.134,"end":6260.634,"text":"中國大陸它經濟成長趨緩通膨低迷所以中國人民銀行5月降息降準並運用多樣的政策工具促進經濟及物價回升預期他們的貨幣政策持續的寬鬆所以要請教總裁我們的央行為了促進我們的經濟及物價的穩定回升會採取哪些政策讓我們的物價及匯率持續的穩定"},{"start":6261.434,"end":6267.799,"text":"我想我們在九月份的禮監事會裡面我們會還是持續的觀察第一個我們就持續的觀察就是說美國的關稅政策的不確定性它的發展會怎麼樣還有各個國家它的一個匯率政策的走向是如何"},{"start":6283.61,"end":6285.553,"text":"基本上就台灣來看的話基本上我們的經濟成長都是穩健我們的物價雖然就是說是第1.2 9月份是1.2級不過整個來講的話還是1.77 1到9月份所以我們的利率還是會"},{"start":6301.894,"end":6319.967,"text":"我再想我們的沒有降息或者升息的這樣的一個我想這個還不會因為我們穩健我們的物價是這樣子的話大概升息的機會是不會是不高的升息的機會是不高的以上 謝謝是好 我們結束林思明委員的質詢"},{"start":6336.53,"end":6344.997,"text":"好 接下來我們請李燕秀委員質詢謝謝召委可不可以請總裁好 請總裁委員早總裁早安我先延續前面幾位委員對於新台幣改版的問題我想先就教於總裁因為去年前年我們台灣的棒球得到世界冠軍的時候當時我還記得我有質詢說我們要不要改版"},{"start":6365.493,"end":6386.682,"text":"因為大家對於台灣的驕傲台灣之光大家都非常的開心當時總裁的回應是說目前沒有規劃計畫怎麼在不到一年多的時間馬上就說我們準備改版改版這件事情應該是一個長期既定性的東西但是為什麼會這麼快速就有一個這樣子的轉變"},{"start":6389.244,"end":6398.569,"text":"我報告委員你說我當時就說我們沒有規劃說要改版這個我好像我沒有說這一句話"},{"start":6400.26,"end":6419.225,"text":"你認為這個是既定的如果說我講這句話沒關係 我今天有好幾個議題要就教於您 總裁既定的計畫既定的計畫當中其實有一個很重要的因素是我們希望新的新台幣改版之後除了設計之外還有一個是防偽的功能事實上"},{"start":6419.845,"end":6433.832,"text":"新台幣防偽的功能每一次我們改版我們都在講說這個防偽的功能很重要我們都在加強我要請問總裁我們過去就是說是現在好了到目前為止我們新台幣有偽鈔的狀況非常多嗎沒有"},{"start":6437.421,"end":6456.83,"text":"不高對 不高那我們還要再增加什麼樣的功能我想 我就不懂因為換一次新台幣就是說每換一次新台幣有它特殊就是說既定的改版之外它的意義到底是什麼"},{"start":6457.81,"end":6483.157,"text":"我想是這樣子啦不管是外界有人譬如說你們是有政治上的操作不會不會絕對不會你想達到的功能是什麼第一個還是就是說因為就是科技的進步即使是說我們現在的微超率很低我們還是要做改版為什麼事實上其他的國家他改版的國家很多也是他的微超率也是很低的"},{"start":6483.917,"end":6488.001,"text":"這是第一點所以就說你的改版所以多久改版所以有委員就認為我們24年收集還是太慢了因為有的國家的還11年我覺得應該去收集大家的資料還有對我們來說多久改版一次"},{"start":6503.394,"end":6508.636,"text":"是恰當的另外我們希望達到什麼樣的目的我覺得這才能夠說服大家因為每改版一次所花的經費也不少沒有錯 委員講的沒有錯不過剛剛你委員在問說什麼功能第一個當然你要達到什麼樣特殊的意義對"},{"start":6522.502,"end":6536.605,"text":"剛剛也是在講就是說現在的科技進步得非常快所以我們要未雨綢繆所以即使是很多國家它的微潮率也很低但是它還是要改版因為為什麼那你還是沒有回答我你要達到什麼樣的目的總裁你簡答就好因為我今天好幾個問題我再講一個你看看我們的鈔券2000塊還有1000塊那個科技"},{"start":6547.248,"end":6553.432,"text":"科技是那個時候我們台灣的科技但是現在我們台灣的科技你看看我們台灣的科技已經是進步的很大了我覺得台灣科技進步你要達到什麼目的還有剛剛我剛剛在講的就是說像我們500塊的背面那個水路 那個梅花路梅花路以前是保育動物現在就是"},{"start":6566.101,"end":6571.566,"text":"妳那個還是設計我是意思說功能上妳希望達到什麼樣的目的設計我知道環圍還有就與時定定環圍 過去也很環圍第三個就是環保環保"},{"start":6580.805,"end":6590.296,"text":"好 我希望我本來期待聽到更多不一樣的答案我想基本上大概就只有這樣子而已就只有這樣我們要花多少經費來做改版我們要花多少經費來做改版我們每張就 我們報告也寫了就是說我們每張會增加1.5塊好 總裁因為我今天要質詢的議題很多好"},{"start":6603.73,"end":6628.048,"text":"我再次恭喜總裁就是說我們又回到環球金融雜誌又回到把你列為A減總裁A-的總裁又回到A那這一次能夠創立這樣子再回到A-最主要原因有四個原因包括我們經濟成長表現得還不錯我們今年有達到2.1還有通膨我們控制得還不錯剛剛其他委員有質詢到我們再次"},{"start":6629.409,"end":6650.981,"text":"低於2%在2%跟1.65之間還有踩漸進式的貨幣緊縮政策那第四個就是我們靈活的總體審查的一些相關的一些政策在裡頭那包括賴總統也提到就是說包括在今年國慶上他也特別提到亞銀今年最新報告我們今年的成長我們經濟成長率由3.3%上調到5.1%"},{"start":6656.024,"end":6679.688,"text":"在亞洲四小龍裡面我們也再次要上第一名我們的經濟成長也超越了中國大陸我想請問總裁就是說從這幾個數據主計處上一次我問他他說我們今年年初的時候我問他他說今年經濟成長預估大概4.45%而已因為可能會有關稅不確定性的因素在那因為現在已經10月中了"},{"start":6680.328,"end":6688.611,"text":"所以他預估說會到5%那我們央行是4.55亞銀是5.10我想請問一下總裁就是說我們看亞銀這個數字你會不會覺得它是過於樂觀還是說你覺得主計處是過於保守"},{"start":6701.255,"end":6707.841,"text":"因為每差一點 差一點我就差很多因為就是說我剛剛也有報告就是說從我們的4.55我們的數據是到8月底但是到9月 10月到目前為止"},{"start":6716.989,"end":6730.261,"text":"總裁我問的是全年所以我想請問你對於這個數據你預估你到目前為止到9月4.5所以到年底你預估是多少所以我們年底要預估多少我們12月才會公佈所以你不能預估我們現在沒辦法"},{"start":6734.705,"end":6740.207,"text":"但是我跟你怎麼看你怎麼看我覺得他們不是說太樂觀而是他們收集到的一個資訊是比較完整的所以你看那你覺得亞銀的數字是怎麼樣亞銀的數據不值得參考也不是太樂觀可能他的probability我們現在只能用機率他的probability也蠻高的"},{"start":6763.789,"end":6780.77,"text":"但是賴總統是用亞營的數字賴總統賴總統是用亞營的數字代表他對於你們的數字是打問號的我要提醒總裁沒關係總裁我想提一下明年那我再回過頭來明年整體大家對於明年整體的經濟成長其實都"},{"start":6783.934,"end":6802.831,"text":"主席總數是預估只有2.55就是說明年整體的經濟是下修的狀況其實當然還包括美國關稅的不確定因素實在是太高了所以我們央行包括明年外界有在講說可能會雪崩式的下跌到3%以下那我們有什麼樣"},{"start":6803.832,"end":6828.342,"text":"因應的策略跟政策我跟委員報告這邊就是說有一些的報告說是會雪崩式的下跌我是不認同你不要講雪崩式會下跌到3%下跌第一個有很大的一個因素第一個就是說因為你的前面的基期就已經很高了所以它會下來我認為是也是合理的"},{"start":6829.442,"end":6843.395,"text":"總裁我請問你你的因應工具是什麼不管它最後結果是什麼不管結果是什麼不管是2%還是3%我當然不希望是3%以下但是你因應的策略跟工具到底是什麼我覺得所以我們的貨幣政策我們就看看我們的情況事實上我覺得假設說我們明年是3%的話我覺得3%還算是不錯的"},{"start":6855.136,"end":6879.686,"text":"3%不是算是很低的3%算是很好的那如果2%或2.5%的話你的因應策略是什麼我只問你說你的因應策略是什麼我說2.5%到3%都算不錯所以如果有3%的話你的因應策略不會出動就對了大概如果說還有3%的話我覺得如果2%或2.5%你的因應策略是什麼"},{"start":6880.887,"end":6892.744,"text":"那再看嘛我現在也沒辦法來回答委員的這個問題啊這12月你的工具擺在前面你手上哪些工具事實上是清楚我們的貨幣政策跟匯率政策就是這兩個工具嘛"},{"start":6896.388,"end":6906.191,"text":"貨幣政策就是利息的調整或是存款準備率或是open market operation就是說一個那個總裁 我希望要提早做準備因為全世界大家對於明年還不只台灣全世界明年整理經濟下修的狀況我不知道會不會連帶性的風險我不清楚"},{"start":6917.174,"end":6933.692,"text":"但是我覺得隨時要做好那個風險的管控會另外剛才有其他委員講到就是說雖然CPI我們控制還不錯但是民生通膨的問題雖然是你想說低薪資所得感受特別深但是事實擺在眼前我們每一年都在講"},{"start":6934.693,"end":6964.012,"text":"民生通膨的問題非常的嚴重但這幾年事實上都沒有改善包括在雞蛋在肉類在素食在麵包還有外食族跟租金事實上通膨是一年比一年高所以我們才講說這是失溫的體感經濟對人民對於很多大多數民眾在金字塔中下階段大家是生活的非常辛苦而且是一年比一年辛苦總裁我們的因應策略做法是什麼"},{"start":6964.552,"end":6971.737,"text":"我覺得剛剛的委員 不可能不改 雖然央行是看一個整體但是對於民生通膨的問題到底怎麼處理這個就是說低所得的民生的物價的持續在上升事實上沒有 是越來越穩定的你覺得是越來越穩定是越來越穩定的 是越來越下降的所以一個排骨飯"},{"start":6990.851,"end":7012.779,"text":"越来越高你觉得其实价格是越来越低但是总裁因为我时间已经到了你说你觉得价格是越来越稳定但是我要提醒你现在多数的民众领到薪水他们都会认为我的薪水即便有涨幅2% 3%但是全部都被民生通膨吃掉了"},{"start":7014.039,"end":7042.401,"text":"这是真正民生的感受如果总裁你的感受是这样包括各部会的看法也是这样难怪现在民进党政府离所有的民意离民众实在是越来越遥远因为这就是失温的经济失温的体温经济人民是过得越来越辛苦事实上我们的薪资今年的薪资包括服务业跟那个什么服务业跟那个我们的制造业工业"},{"start":7043.021,"end":7071.851,"text":"他的我們的那個實質薪資是正的我知道是正的但是很多人也感受到現在民生CPI的成長所有長的薪資都被統統去掉這也是另外一個事實這也是另外一個事實所以行總裁有機會雖然你這一次再回到A-的總裁還是回到民生多走動走動了解各個民生階層的看法好不好謝謝李燕秀 李委員"},{"start":7074.265,"end":7078.169,"text":"總裁請回接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢謝謝主席這個我們請楊總裁好 請楊總裁"},{"start":7099.29,"end":7117.803,"text":"總裁好 看到您的報告就是說新台幣決定要來改版了現在已經有發行了24年的時間現在所以先要改版那請問一下要改版的是指100 500 1000嗎還是只有500我們都會改都會改預計啦 現在是預計說5張都要改"},{"start":7124.628,"end":7133.57,"text":"我們看一下就是說現在台幣現在是有100有200有500有1000有2000所以這五種都要改嗎是預計因為我們現在要成立一個諮詢委員這個會討論到最後的決定是怎麼樣到目前為止不過我們預計是這五張都要改版"},{"start":7151.213,"end":7167.3,"text":"我自己在流通上面大概是100 500 1000比較常用 200跟2000現在流通量怎麼樣對 流通量200是比較少 那個2000塊還好2000塊還好對 2000塊還好2000塊之所以還好是因為我們個人用2000塊的不多但是機構"},{"start":7175.163,"end":7182.63,"text":"公司行號他在用2000塊的會比較多所以一般我們在ATM我們會用到2000塊的比較少所以200還會再繼續再發尋嗎所以我們也會考量所以諮詢委員我們只是說我現在就是說預計改版就是說這五張都要改版但是我們成立了諮詢委員會到最後也是由他來"},{"start":7199.006,"end":7221.344,"text":"給我們的一些的建議我們改版也要看未來的流通性目前大家來看的話剛剛也有委員做這樣的一個建議所以這個都是為流工我們做參考因為200的確是流通量比較少看到所以說這五種的圖案都會做更改就對了"},{"start":7224.033,"end":7249.19,"text":"如果说改版的话基本上图案都是会改的不过现在我都还在讲因为你们有一个委员会是由他来决定来给我们做最后的一个建议所以理论上你看我们500是93年的然后1000块也是93年然后2000块是90年其实都没有特定的政治人物"},{"start":7251.45,"end":7269.235,"text":"其實我也希望說未來新台幣改版這一個不要有特定的政治人物在上面這個我們會類為參考我們就彰顯台灣的精神彰顯台灣的價值的方式有很多所以我是希望說既然有這個計畫要改版的話"},{"start":7269.975,"end":7289.897,"text":"然后这个目前的这个100 200 500 1000 2000这五种都要改版那我是建议说不要有这个政治人物的图案在上面那再请教一下那目前的这一个因为那个总裁有提到说是要防伪那目前我们的伪操的数量多吗不多"},{"start":7290.658,"end":7305.942,"text":"不多 所以表示我們的防偽性還是算是好的那有沒有一個數據有啊 我們2014年我們有但是每年都不高 都不會超過以前是0.2總裁你的數據是哪一年的2024年這個是0.05百萬0.05百萬"},{"start":7319.454,"end":7323.74,"text":"每百萬張就只有0.05張每百萬張有0.05張0.05%每百萬張有0.05張是什麼意思0.05"},{"start":7334.614,"end":7351.977,"text":"很低 我們很低以前是高 現在是越來越低你們有分嗎比如說是1000的 500的 100的有這樣分嗎因為你這樣應該是概括的這是概括的有沒有分嗎比如說1000的比較多還是500的多還是100的比較多每張有的嗎 沒有有嗎 有這樣區分嗎"},{"start":7353.779,"end":7373.254,"text":"沒有 我們這個是overall的這其實應該要做這樣的區分才對你才知道說是哪一種有可能被偽造那他可能1000的機會會比較高因為他的面值比較大 我在猜但是你們沒有做這方面的統計你們就只有全部的這是去年的"},{"start":7374.654,"end":7380.418,"text":"對 這個是去年的那這幾年下來的數據都差不多嗎都差不多2022、2023、2024都差不多都大概是百萬分之0.5張嗎對 就每百萬張就只有0.06張"},{"start":7395.744,"end":7418.83,"text":"0.05 0.05 0.06 0.05 0.06張大概是好 那請問一下那現在改版的這一個這每一張啦因為我看你們的資料目前的流通的票券平均單價是3.5塊是不是對 沒有錯那所以說 那你說那現在未來要做的話是高出1.5那所以說等於是平均每一張是5塊錢對 5塊錢如果加起來是5塊錢那因為剛剛很多委員有關心到說"},{"start":7420.509,"end":7449.479,"text":"大概如果要改版的話需要多少的預算我剛聽這個總裁意思是說看我們的發行量對 我們要看我們的發行量而且我們大概也會在116年或是117年會編117年以後我們會編列預算那時候編列預算就會比較明確大概一個比如說你現在市面上流通的這個新台幣的大概張數有多少"},{"start":7454.137,"end":7470.792,"text":"50億張50億張 對那你不用每一次就全部換掉嘛對不對對啦 當然啦 不用啦逐年太萬嘛是 逐年太萬對啊 那所以說那大概你們第一年你們第一年病人預算大概需要多少這個目前還沒有做這樣的一個評估或者說你們希望太萬的話一年希望太萬要多少我們7億到10億"},{"start":7474.231,"end":7486.294,"text":"要大概是7億到10億7億到10億就是每一年汰換的話那數字也很好算出來7億到10億如果10億就50億因為這樣5塊錢的話平均來講所以就是大概平均編到大概50億左右"},{"start":7495.373,"end":7516.006,"text":"是這樣子算嗎 沒有錯因為從你們每一年台灣的數量然後每一張平均的單價來看的話那大概是這個數據那剛才因為你們會適合我永惠我們只是提到說我們的一些看法希望說彰顯台灣精神不要有政治人物 哪一黨都一樣"},{"start":7517.247,"end":7531.946,"text":"現在過去也都一樣好 那請教一下總裁我們現在有可能最快11月初要普發現金1萬塊是對 那我看你們報告裡面寫說你們有這個數位金流平台對這是要負責發放現金1萬塊的單位嗎"},{"start":7536.838,"end":7558.839,"text":"它有好幾個方式對啊 因為它現在有五種方式但是如果說對數位的 發放數位的就是由我們的平台來提供來 董事長來講一下好就是說普發先進以外快跟你們相關性的平台的作用在哪裡"},{"start":7559.998,"end":7587.956,"text":"跟委員報告照目前行政院的規劃第一個在網站上面的登記也是在這個平台的功能裡面第二個在身份的核驗也是在這個平台的功能裡面當然剛剛委員提到的真正在發放現金這五種通路的總控管也是在這個平台裡面最後譬如說路障或是提線都是在這個平台裡面控管所以我們登記路障ATM領線"},{"start":7589.797,"end":7616.793,"text":"郵局領線 這個都跟你們有關係嗎都有都有關係 對都是在你們這一個數位公共建設金流平台是這是第一次使用嗎這是之前6000的時候有用但是那個只是比較雛形的然後我們整個在央行的指導下把它整成一個數位公共的建設的金流平台以這個名字來看是第一次使用第一次使用"},{"start":7617.97,"end":7644.829,"text":"那你有沒有測試過有 因為現在剛開始的時候大家已經大概擠在前兩天要去領這一萬塊所以你看就是說如果這個包含登記登記應該是在網路上面登記是不是然後ATM郵局這個應該都是跟你們有相關的是都有那有沒有做過這個壓力測試有不要說你第一天就大家去領結果說整個平台都塞車"},{"start":7645.729,"end":7656.121,"text":"有 這個跟委員報告第一個在做這個事情它前面有分流的機制第二個這個壓力測試我們都有完全的做完不是 你們壓力測試怎麼測試比如說上線多少人"},{"start":7657.643,"end":7683.591,"text":"我們壓力測試就是說我們模擬有在台灣發的交易有在國外發的交易 因為登記這些的量我們用雲端的設備來做大量的登記對 我的意思是說有沒有去說譬如說1秒多少人進去就像有時候在買票一樣就會當機那你們有做過這個測試嗎說1秒大概多少人進去然後就有可能會當機"},{"start":7684.551,"end":7693.966,"text":"有 我們做的是這個平台每一秒它可以有2000人以上然後持續一個小時譬如說我每一秒都2000人都這樣子進來擠了一個小時我們都沒有問題都沒問題 如果到3000人"},{"start":7700.115,"end":7716.025,"text":"3000人目前來看我們的系統的設計是橫向的就是說我們也準備了一些備援的這個機器如果真的量很大的時候我們機器就加進去董事長不要最後有塞車塞車最後變成這個發現其實是好事結果發現說這個塞車大家又在抱怨"},{"start":7716.585,"end":7730.204,"text":"是的 跟委員報告是說有沒有信心通過這個考驗我們是有信心就是說如果說他真的很大量因為他整個前面會有分流的機制也會有管制的機制這樣子可以讓他順順的把它做完這樣我時間到了嗎"},{"start":7735.07,"end":7753.422,"text":"我問最後一題好了問一下總裁好了因為我看到我們CPI其實在食物類都偏高因為現在這兩天都發生台中非洲豬味的事情對我們CPI會不會有影響"},{"start":7755.503,"end":7760.705,"text":"這個我們昨天也有討論到這個一開始的時候大家都認為可能會豬肉因為豬肉的價格本來最近都比較高就是說可能會但是豬瘟疫發生的時候可能需求量也會下來剛開始一定會搶對 剛開始是供應不足但是現在有可能就是說因為是這樣子的話需求量會減少"},{"start":7781.11,"end":7794.319,"text":"如果說供給不增加然後需求量減少的話那大概價格就不會上漲了我是做這樣的一個基本上所以我的意思就是應該對我們CPI不會有影響所以總裁認為豬肉價格是先漲後跌嗎還是怎麼樣所以我昨天我沒有討論到這個問題昨天討論的情況"},{"start":7803.004,"end":7818.055,"text":"但是我們的意思就是說對CPI會不會影響我們同事說應該是不會後來我也是這麼想如果說你的需求沒有的話價格大概漲不上去只是供給量沒有要看影響的時間"},{"start":7819.507,"end":7827.913,"text":"對啦 對啦 這個我們會持續來關注現在也沒辦法來做那你說短時間對CPI沒有影響就對了對對對 我們應該就說今年應該是不會啦這樣子 好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝主席好 謝謝李坤城委員接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":7852.561,"end":7858.692,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":7865.249,"end":7878.244,"text":"總委很早總裁好今天我的詢問的主題都是打問號但是我先請教一個問題剛剛大家在關心我們新的超券對不對你說是面額都維持原來的面額是嗎對啦100 200 500 1000 2000是"},{"start":7882.529,"end":7911.528,"text":"預計那有沒有考慮過有更高的面額因為你剛剛在回答兩百元的時候有說這兩百元可以節省皮夾空間兩張一張抵兩張那既然可以發行兩千有沒有可能考慮發行一萬不會普發先進一萬領一張就好啦因為那個流通量會更少流通量會更好那我們問一下那你參考其他國家你知道嗎美國聯邦他曾經發行的最高面額的美鈔是什麼面額嗎"},{"start":7913.101,"end":7935.486,"text":"这个我忘了他们在1865年第25任的财政部长发行了1万面额的美钞到后来到1934年还发行了10万面额的金币券你觉得这个有可能用吗这是用在哪里为什么美国要发行这么大面额的美钞它是在财政部跟央行之间交付而已"},{"start":7937.386,"end":7964.64,"text":"沒有 我們沒關係 我直接告訴你答案這個跟我們今天討論的紙鈔沒有關聯這是它是政府跟銀行之間的一個交換使用好 那現在我們回到這裡來了那麼有人在說總裁你好像在拍馬屁說要把12強冠軍的印象紙鈔你認為當年我們在1998年發行的這個少棒冠軍的這個鈔票之後你有在央行嗎"},{"start":7965.606,"end":7966.92,"text":"1998"},{"start":7967.389,"end":7995.899,"text":"你進央行了沒有那時候有人說那時候央行總裁發行這樣的事在拍馬屁嗎沒有還是說少棒冠軍可以上鈔票不算拍馬屁四棒賽十二強就是在拍馬屁有沒有這樣的問題應該沒有沒有所以就大膽的放心的把我們國人的驕傲就算拍馬屁我覺得也是拍我們國人的馬屁應該不會因為棒球是我們國家的光榮對不對是所以盡量去做好 下來我要請教一下"},{"start":7996.559,"end":8017.09,"text":"另外今天比較多聚焦在美國有沒有聽過川普賬戶共和黨提案說新生兒國家就給他100美元然後每年他的父母也可以存進去還可以不用扣稅那到了18歲的時候他就一大筆錢最近我們國內也有要選縣市長的人做這樣的倡議你覺得要達到這種倡議"},{"start":8020.552,"end":8043.708,"text":"有什麼條件我舉例來講他們美國的經濟顧問委員會他說如果1000元每年這樣存到18歲可以領到1萬8如果加上一些投報率可以到30萬那到28歲就109萬哇 這個真好啊這個第一桶金政府幫你存1000美金然後到你的18歲到25歲就成為百萬富翁有這個條件嗎"},{"start":8045.961,"end":8070.468,"text":"我覺得這個議題我沒有很瞭解我覺得就是說你政府要進去的話你要有budget你要有錢除了政府要有錢能不能預期成長是不是兩個因素第一這整個18年或25年利率要維持高檔或者說股市的平均回報率要好都不曉得"},{"start":8070.908,"end":8098.445,"text":"都不曉得如果國內要推的話我們央行可不可以告訴我們的政府說沒問題 家長放心政府準備好Budget投入但是央行讓我們這幾年利率都維持在高檔可以嗎 可以這樣嗎不可能不可能 我們來問一下但是最近FED說要再降息了你認為台灣的股市美股大為激勵FED降息美股大為激勵你覺得台灣的股市的表現跟你央行降不降息有沒有關聯"},{"start":8100.417,"end":8113.782,"text":"好像比較沒有沒有什麼關聯那你認為台灣的股市的表現主要是考量什麼因素我們的台灣的股市說實在的是跟著大部分都是跟著跟著台積電走跟著台積電走台積電這些科技類股也是跟著美國的科技類股"},{"start":8120.285,"end":8140.406,"text":"科技類股所以說如果FIT的降息有可能熱錢通通會被吸回去嗎還是說這些錢會跑到台灣來專利差這個都很難講很難講 沒有一定好往下看所以說如果你剛講的其實高科技是我們的優勢股那麼外資是我台股或者跟FIT是我降息有沒有關聯"},{"start":8142.881,"end":8163.708,"text":"我舉個例 上上週一應該也有也有 但是你看看那個星期一就是國慶日那天川普又宣布要跟中國提高關稅怕美國股市大跌大家預期隔天到10月12號台股開盤的時候會大跌有沒有大跌 台積利有沒有大跌沒有啊"},{"start":8164.048,"end":8176.221,"text":"沒有啊 是散戶啊500萬的零股戶把台積電撐上來耶所以表示這個股市台灣的股市不見得跟著美國的股市走美國的股市雖然跟FIT降息有關但是台灣的股市表現我覺得委員對股票的知識比我還強"},{"start":8182.046,"end":8206.932,"text":"謝謝誇獎但是你也不買股票我也不買股票往下看你講的頭頭是道所以說我要請教一下但現在有一個問題來了外匯存體再度改寫歷史新高多少超過6000億了那怎麼辦現在我們央行的業務報告說你們要怎樣要運用外匯存體的投資運用效益考量到對美元的匯率變動所以你要維持市場的秩序跟進場條件講了半天我們想問的是美國"},{"start":8210.649,"end":8229.378,"text":"FED他未降息 熱錢就跑來台灣了那如果他再降息他會不會造成外資願意加碼台股甚至會影響到匯率有沒有這個可能 央行怎麼因應我剛剛 問了三個問題譬如說九月份的時候美國降息"},{"start":8229.838,"end":8234.281,"text":"大家都會認為就是說美國降息的時候美元會弱但是之後9月以後好像也沒有弱最近它都很強很強對 所以也就是說這個跟台灣的匯率也不會有影響這個猜測好像也是不大對也不大所以不會影響到匯率所以我覺得外資所以這個就是也是我們困擾的地方就是說外資的行為說實在是很難去捉摸的好"},{"start":8257.239,"end":8265.917,"text":"是很難去捉摸的那這樣的話那是我們另外一個關鍵的議題了那這樣的話可是呢又有委員在院會的時候問院長 卓院長說跟美國的關稅談判會不會討論到匯率"},{"start":8268.332,"end":8291.698,"text":"跟他的關稅談判好像沒有談到沒有涉及到匯率可是我們看到了你的報告說說本年上半年本場進場累計買匯會不會被美國列為你在操作匯率啊沒有啊不會沒有不會確定不會我覺得不會啊你覺得不會還是美國覺得不會還是川普覺得不會如果按照他的三項標準的話"},{"start":8292.398,"end":8312.228,"text":"我們絕對不會好但是我們有一個問題是國內比較關心的往下看其實台灣的壽險業常常有必別錯配的問題所以我們在國內的資金成本取得高保單的費率高國內的利率低是要進行海外投資對不對這是目前我國壽險的普遍困境所以他都要換匯"},{"start":8314.209,"end":8334.062,"text":"換匯他還要去每年投入很多避險成本購買避險的商品他有獲利還要買外匯的準備金最近金管會跟售險要到討論說外匯準備金的制度調整要怎麼看然後他每年投入那麼多的避險成本那還要去買購買避險商品總裁你了解這是我們目前售險業的處境吧"},{"start":8335.118,"end":8352.279,"text":"我基本上我知道你了解嘛好那現在有個問題來了現在呢昨天我們看到了這個金管會的主委彭主委拍了一個什麼亞資中心的投資論壇有沒有看到新聞報導有看到嗎你知不支持我們卓院長推動的亞資中心"},{"start":8352.939,"end":8378.062,"text":"当然支持那你也支持我们的兆元投资国家发展方案我也支持好 那我们来看一下我们这个兆元国家投资方案跟亚投资产管理中心就想说必须要我们的金融商品我们的金融业者有一个金融商品这个金融商品透过台币在工建长照还有永续产业用外币的表现放到这里来然后我们有需要外币"},{"start":8378.942,"end":8401.273,"text":"進來投資是不是這樣子那外資進來他是用美元進來啊那他有匯率的風險啊那是不是他也要購買這些避險的商品會購買避險的商品那央行有沒有開放這些匯率的避險商品有啊當然有啊說來聽聽他說將涉外匯業務將槍央行意見我們看一下"},{"start":8402.613,"end":8423.448,"text":"這個銀行進駐地方資產管理專區的事辦業務這金王會說的他從今年的1月4月5月到7月他這裡面講了這麼多事情但是業者只要問到說社外的會業社外會業務將洽央行意見辦理我之前也問了金王會主委這些外資進來需要"},{"start":8424.728,"end":8429.751,"text":"匯率的避險商品央行有沒有同意開放可以啊事實上我跟委員報告這個就是說彭主委他非常積極的來就是說來發展當然支持所以他涉及到外匯的我總覺得"},{"start":8443.318,"end":8453.869,"text":"彭主委他都會而且他很謙虛他都會帶隊來我們中央銀行跟事實上我們也去到他那邊彼此互相來討論怎麼樣來講他提出的訴求中央銀行都會配合是這樣喔確定喔確定"},{"start":8462.718,"end":8477.879,"text":"確定因為我看你們央行跟今晚會的表達對於匯率的避險商品的作為你們比較保守一點他們期待比較開放一點我想是這樣 委員你也不要就是說保守就是拒絕"},{"start":8478.92,"end":8496.151,"text":"不是保守的意思就是說我開放但是會在安全的情況之下我去跟我女朋友求婚在她沒答應之前她都是保守如果說我開放然後是非常有危險的時候你覺得中央銀行會開放嗎就是說在還沒答應之前都不是拒絕都是保守"},{"start":8497.712,"end":8514.87,"text":"不是 我們來是open的是open的好 那我會請主席再看所以說這個事情我要拜託下次彭主委為了亞資中心還有社外的外匯業務跟你求婚的時候你不要"},{"start":8515.911,"end":8537.957,"text":"不拒絕你要開放但是你要點頭好不好我們請央行研議亞洲資產管理中心開放匯率避險商品好不好以有效吸引境外資金來台投資的可行性一個月提出來點頭不算白紙黑字我拿去問彭主委這樣才表示你是開放跟支持的好不好謝謝謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":8545.221,"end":8547.362,"text":"接下來請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 我請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":8566.896,"end":8590.917,"text":"黃委員早是 總裁早我想今天大家都還是很關心所謂台幣改版的事但我想先問一個事內政部的警政署165的打詐儀表板它其實有統計打詐的狀況還是很嚴重今年的財損已經達到700多億投資詐騙是第一名那打詐儀表板裡面非常多很有趣的事情就是"},{"start":8592.421,"end":8618.821,"text":"诈骗集团滥用民众对于中央银行的信任所以假装是央行的外汇专员是吗而且具名蔡炯明进行金融诈骗到上个礼拜还是发生所以这个应该是外汇局长是吗是然后但是你们在112年11月有发布澄清新闻稿是到上个礼拜还有这样的案子这个外汇局长要不要出来在现场"},{"start":8620.002,"end":8631.794,"text":"馬上立刻再說明一次因為央行從來沒有說過我們因為在打仗的方面好像沒有看到央行什麼角色蔡局長你要不要澄清一下是…好"},{"start":8634.138,"end":8643.421,"text":"委員好事實上我們央行都有對外有做這樣的一個澄清在去年發生的時候就有澄清過上個禮拜還有你上個禮拜又詐騙人你知道嗎我們持續都還是會再做這樣的一個澄清因為大概都會打電話到我們這邊來"},{"start":8651.583,"end":8676.069,"text":"我們這邊相關的同仁都會跟他們做一些解釋事實上我們外匯很多人大部分都說那個資金沒辦法進來是在我們央行這邊的管理等等的事實上我們都會跟他解釋被央行控管了所以錢沒辦法動什麼的都有解釋去年也都有發過新聞稿做一些國外匯款沒有辦法匯款是因為外匯局無法放行然後就騙他"},{"start":8677.39,"end":8692.988,"text":"通常是來自這個地方總裁表示大家很相信中央銀行所以被冒名不是你們的錯央行要不斷的澄清是 好第二個是現在打仗從打仗的指揮中心看起來"},{"start":8693.809,"end":8719.301,"text":"央行好像沒有在這個相關的系統裡面有什麼角色對不對對 基本上是沒有你們都有協助但是大家相信中央銀行所以你在打詐的上面可能還要再加把勁就是說在我央行的不管是官網或相關的打詐的上面我覺得央行要強調我們不會跟你控制你的外匯有沒有匯出去都跟央行沒有關係那都是銀行端的事好不好我想這個"},{"start":8722.602,"end":8746.187,"text":"總裁幫局長澄清比較有用好 我們外局來做這件事情就是我們央行沒有人在詐騙尤其姓蔡的更沒有詐騙好 那局長請回我想接下來就是今天大家最關心的就是看到您的報告說要改版新台幣其實我在一上任的時候我就已經質詢過您我還記得很清楚"},{"start":8746.687,"end":8771.715,"text":"那時候是很多的攤販來陳情說500元的假鈔很多50塊的假幣很多當時我質詢的時候還問過您說有沒有改版計畫有沒有評估過改版成本您當時回覆跟我說新台幣使用狀況良好幣性良好 偽鈔率很低所以沒有改版計畫一年後的現在突然間有改版計畫這是為什麼"},{"start":8773.555,"end":8799.888,"text":"因為一年前你回答我的我問的時候你非常斬釘截鐵我們的在性良好 避性良好使用狀況良好 偽差率超低那現在有改變嗎我跟委員報告就剛剛也有一個委員就說我在前一年的時候說我們改版我問的時候就被你打回腔所以我就說也許我也忘了"},{"start":8801.008,"end":8805.292,"text":"第二個可能就是說我沒有很能夠掌握我們自己的狀況事實上最近我們在要講改版的時候所以沒有 我現在要確定沒有偽鈔率增加 沒有必信"},{"start":8816.983,"end":8832.47,"text":"不佳的狀況 對吧就說偽鈔率應該也算是還是不是很高偽鈔還是很低畢竟也很良好第二個我們現在在大量的推展電子支付所以我們現在改版的重要性跟急迫性到底是什麼"},{"start":8833.19,"end":8849.568,"text":"是 不過就是說你有偽鈔的急迫性還是你有病情不好的急迫性我們這邊列出來很多國家它也是改版它的那個微鈔率也是很低的所以微鈔率低也不是說你改版的必要條件好"},{"start":8850.89,"end":8864.971,"text":"所以那以后就不要回我那种公文了好不好重点是刚刚今天听总裁讲话有趣就是我想说那五百元要改版到底是因为梅花路还是因为赖总统"},{"start":8866.496,"end":8872.519,"text":"不 我們改版就是說據我們有一個兩場管理委員會事實上我同仁告訴我我們106年就是那個時候就開始在規劃了所以我說剛剛那個委員在講這個我要做這樣的回答我現在回收我當時的回答你回收你剛剛的話你回收你之前寫的公文因為畢竟我那時候的回答是不對的是不對的"},{"start":8896.089,"end":8907.416,"text":"現在我要講另外一個就是2000塊 200塊的確是使用率流通率很低所以你改版還要繼續發行嗎所以我們說預計這五張但是我們有關要去討論一下因為它的使用率真的很低我們會把這個建議我們會類作參考"},{"start":8914.92,"end":8930.137,"text":"現在的問題是在於現在各國日本其實也一千塊、五千塊、一萬塊已經做改版二十年之後做貨幣更新它最大的問題其實不是這個因為日本有非常多的是所謂的點餐機"},{"start":8931.719,"end":8951.636,"text":"點鈔機ATM還有所謂的停車費其實你知道改版最需要的是做這方面的民間的配合跟跟進你就是說這些不是只有只有你央行一個人掌了算因為大家都要全世界都要跟著你變所以這件事情在日本"},{"start":8952.456,"end":8974.301,"text":"兩年前就已經做好規劃產業就要開始跟著走包括尺寸 包括相關的它們的這些設備在你發行之後 它可以立刻跟得上這才是接下來去改版最隱形的成本是…委員講得沒有錯所以總裁你大概預計花多少錢總共"},{"start":8983.324,"end":9000.831,"text":"你去年回答我大概要500億所以你覺得太貴了所以你不要改沒有你500億那個是沒有500億是主要的就是說它大部分的成本是因為是銅板的改版銅板的成本比較高現在我們銅板因為它是小零頭而且慢慢會退出"},{"start":9001.611,"end":9007.614,"text":"所以我們這一次是不會有所以不用到五百億那要幾百億對不會五百億就只有那個鈔券而已剛剛委員在講的這個就是說調整的就是那個販賣機什麼的跟著民間一起協調這些我們也有初步的一個估算好像是十億"},{"start":9025.402,"end":9043.225,"text":"16億Total 16億 分幾年邊這個是社會成本對 社會成本16億那你自己的央行的成本呢就是不用不用我們央行的成本就是我們每一張會增加1.51.5所以你要看你發多少好 這樣會影響到你央行的預算還有繳庫的金額嗎應該不會不會就是你不會少錢繳庫不會減少"},{"start":9053.887,"end":9079.016,"text":"應該是不會啦就是你可以控制到控制到變成是你基本的成本而已是啦 應該是啦我覺得啦 這次兩千塊兩百塊我覺得你要慎重考慮五百塊要怎麼換大家都可以表示意見但是我覺得以後講話就不要這麼斬釘截鐵而且大家在反映說其實五十塊的硬幣很多假幣這種狀況還是要注意跟檢討"},{"start":9082.358,"end":9098.753,"text":"我覺得這個還是很重要改版是大事而且每一個民眾都會受影響第二個他跟我們推動電子支付的政策其實有一點小衝突我們到底是要往電子支付大幅提升還是"},{"start":9099.494,"end":9115.019,"text":"還要繼續用紙鈔這個可能是一個社會的選擇所以我們現在出國大概基本上像我去一趟美國 去一趟日本我大概沒有用過紙鈔所以總裁你覺得接下去的紙鈔使用量還會增加嗎"},{"start":9116.863,"end":9133.649,"text":"我想就是說現今它還是可預見的相來它還是電子支付還是沒辦法替代它的沒辦法替代 但是不需要到你原來預估的那個量所以也就是說它的發行量可能會越來越少"},{"start":9134.509,"end":9161.391,"text":"我們改版的成本就會越來越少而且政府也是大力推動電子支付而且現在連LiPay都上網連民眾之間的轉帳用LiPay不用手續費它其實使用率非常的高連我們朋友吃飯大家都用LiPay互相傳來傳去我的意思是說你在發行量的時候可能要有個具體的評估而且要讓立法院這邊也都能夠有參與的意見的機會因為我們每天都在接受不管是一般的攤販也好"},{"start":9162.392,"end":9185.421,"text":"相關的民間他們其實對於這些都非常有意見接下來最後一個小問題就希望說總裁我們有關新清安的部分目前現在房地產市場的變化你有辦法直接告訴我現在你的控制方式你接下來會有什麼樣的新的做法"},{"start":9186.761,"end":9195.784,"text":"你是說房市房市我們現在還是滾動式的檢討所以沒有因為你的這一波大家這邊詭教說爛尾樓建商倒閉狀況嚴重嗎我們密切注意市場的發展滾動式的檢討就是這樣"},{"start":9203.167,"end":9226.356,"text":"對 所以這些有發生嗎就是爛尾樓 我想說爛尾樓我們也有密切去注意他事實上他的個案所以他目前還沒有影響太大也沒有很嚴重的影響銀行的債券 對吧是 應該是所以目前為止不會做任何的調整在你的第七波信用管制應該我們繼續滾動式檢討繼續控制好 謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":9246.488,"end":9247.252,"text":"謝謝主席 我請楊總裁"},{"start":9254.79,"end":9283.017,"text":"好 汪委員早總裁 辛苦了謝謝 謝謝您鼓勵您對這個房市管控的這個部分還有在這個買賣外匯的這一個部分這一部分的堅持我是非常肯定謝謝 謝謝委員鼓勵還有支持必須頂住很多壓力那我認為最重要第一點我們就是"},{"start":9284.157,"end":9309.744,"text":"關於我們國家的匯率匯匯這一個部分因為我們國家GDP62%是出口所以我們是以出口為導向的國家所以央行要來顧及我們國家匯率的穩定這是應當的所以我也多次講我說其實我們政府應該默許央行有這兩大權利"},{"start":9311.684,"end":9330.284,"text":"第一個權利就是不說實話的權利啦這個部分第二個操作外匯的這個權利這個我們不可否的我們台灣我們"},{"start":9332.336,"end":9358.136,"text":"是小國寡民就比起歐美日他們這些大國而言那我們當然要互助我們的外匯所以這一點我是一再的堅持說一定要這麼做你看這次台幣升值的結果我們國內有那麼多的行業已經開始無薪假了他們只是因為匯率還沒有計算到"},{"start":9360.038,"end":9385.249,"text":"20%的關稅還有疊加上去的那個都不算光匯率這一波就已經讓他們幾乎沒辦法存活像手工機械業像五星類他們就是這樣所以這個部分我希望央行能夠堅持當然美國那邊的控制的我覺得這三點你比我更清楚你是內行你專業"},{"start":9386.769,"end":9403.018,"text":"這三點裡面我一再講我認為貿易順差超過200億這個沒話講我們隨便也都會超過說經常順差超過GDP3%這個我們也不敢太確定說是不是會超過這兩點"},{"start":9405.279,"end":9427.636,"text":"我們比較沒話講但是單向外匯年淨買值說要超過GDP百分之二要超過160億美金因為我們不是一天到晚在買匯我們也會有賣的時候你就要帶領央行去調節有時候買有時候賣但是保持它的穩定這一點"},{"start":9428.977,"end":9449.848,"text":"是他們永遠拿我們沒辦法的地方所以很多事情我們跟我們最大貿易往來國家大家心照不宣所以我希望你能夠頂住這個壓力繼續往對於匯率的穩定操控這個部分還是要堅持下去好不好"},{"start":9451.73,"end":9469.689,"text":"那其次就是關於對房市房市這一個部分的壓力也蠻大的因為不可否認現在在此反對聲浪的那背後的鼓譟者很多啊會影響到他們的比方說建商"},{"start":9470.851,"end":9497.241,"text":"比方說房屋仲介公司比方說投資戶那這些人他們當然有他們的權益可是如果是來炒作的比方說有一些自己體質就不良的建設公司比方說有一些這個過分大膽的這些投資戶那房價這十年來漲幅這麼大"},{"start":9499.505,"end":9513.824,"text":"也是因為這些人所導致的因素占非常大的一個因素那這些人他們在媒體上面聲量很大因為他們常年有那麼龐大的廣告量"},{"start":9514.745,"end":9531.209,"text":"所以相對就會有他們製造的一些新聞那這會給我們政府壓力那政府的壓力當然就會轉嫁來請央行說是不是這個部分應該放鬆那我認為不應該我還是認為我們對於房市控管說不動產貸款"},{"start":9541.199,"end":9555.788,"text":"資金絕對不能超過當時存款總額的30%三成我認為這個底線一定要守住當然現在行政院有放寬說那這30%的這個設限"},{"start":9560.552,"end":9580.752,"text":"對新清安不計算不記錄那不記錄以後光上個月一個月就240億之多所以我還是認為對於新清安不設限來講但是要嚴審這些新清安是不是真正的有需要的新清安或者是人家"},{"start":9581.553,"end":9592.825,"text":"不管建商 仲介 炒作者他們去找出來的人頭那這個我認為是不是應該督促各銀行他們應該嚴審 你看法呢是 沒有錯委員的"},{"start":9599.722,"end":9611.007,"text":"對於房市的我們的信任管制一直以來都給我們很大的支持那這個真的是我又一直就說要站得住腳站得住腳也是要我們委員來協助我們來支持我們我們才站得更穩這個部分我真的非常謝謝委員這樣的一個做法"},{"start":9624.853,"end":9643.043,"text":"所以總裁能不能頂住這個壓力因為現在動不動就會有這個聲浪跑出來沒有錯所以要頂住這個壓力而且要遂之以理就是當行政院內部在討論的時候你要把這一番道理說出來"},{"start":9645.225,"end":9665.727,"text":"過去你像十幾年前16、17年前美國也發生過那麼大的風暴造成金融風暴它造成的風暴已經造成世界級的也是導於你對不動產開始的那些刺激房貸所以這個底線一定要守住好不好你看我們這一次你強硬的"},{"start":9667.929,"end":9684.044,"text":"這三年來緊縮的政策你看緊縮這三年以來我們房屋我就在講我們台灣的淡黃區台北新北就好跌幅不到2%你看那麼強硬之下"},{"start":9685.285,"end":9704.576,"text":"房屋跌幅也不到2%等於微跌但是整個價值來看我們相比2020年當時的指數只有97.85%現在即便下跌到這個程度房價指數還是高達150.38%150"},{"start":9712.451,"end":9731.461,"text":"這五年來等於漲了一半所以這是不可思議的事情我們也可以引國外韓國也有很好的例子韓國他們打得比我們更嚴重他們不但全面緊縮他們房價六億元的房價"},{"start":9733.383,"end":9741.136,"text":"貸款總額的上限他們訂了這個絕對不動而且他們打擊外國的投資客他們針對熱區他們還把貸款層數下降"},{"start":9746.266,"end":9771.592,"text":"還有他們針對超過25億韓元1比50差就5000萬的豪宅他們就限貸就限制他們的貸款不打緊喔他們兩戶以上你如果貸款兩戶以上全面禁止我們還沒有喔我們只有把乘數下降我們沒有限制戶數然後他們法人貸款"},{"start":9774.002,"end":9802.822,"text":"對我們台灣人法人貸款我們還給他三成韓國是全面禁止一毛也不借他這些都正確的事情所以他們打房的政策比我們更嚴格而且執行上更徹底所以這樣子的情況下韓國政府也是撐住了啊也是撐住了所以我希望這個部分你一定要一定要堅持還有"},{"start":9803.735,"end":9819.533,"text":"我們國家貸款總額沒有上限對於不動產貸款總額但是韓國他也限制貸款總額他房貸貸款總額他設限六億韓元六億韓元而已"},{"start":9820.981,"end":9849.451,"text":"如果你一比45來看才1300萬台幣所以他們是做的這麼徹底那這樣子的情況就是為了所有全國普遍大家都能夠有合理的價格舒適的房子來居住這才是正確的所以我希望你能夠挺下去在這一波打房的政策上面因為只有你"},{"start":9850.431,"end":9868.138,"text":"只有中央銀行有辦法堅持住你堅持住啦其他銀行才能守住好不好是謝謝委員的支持謝謝委員的鼓勵謝謝好我們謝謝王世堅委員接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席我們請這個楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":9880.888,"end":9905.07,"text":"等一下財經公司 董事長等一下下一題陳委員 這個總裁去年9月19金融海嘯然後楊金榮海嘯今年9月18的我們央行的理監事會你們的打房重點是維持第7波的選擇性信用管制到今年第4季要做總檢討"},{"start":9906.431,"end":9933.509,"text":"那你覺得從去年到現在你去年我們在這邊諮詢的時候你在這邊背詢說希望今年中今年房價可以慢慢向下調整你覺得現在國內的房價發展有沒有符合你當初說的慢慢向下調整到目前為止對啦是有慢慢剛剛那個委員才在講有啦但是就是說不夠大不夠對不對他認為是不夠大不夠嘛本來其實已經在僵持了我看這個買方賣方已經在僵持但是"},{"start":9934.289,"end":9956.289,"text":"前一陣子是上個月吧這個新清安的整個不算入這個裡頭以後整個整大一部分又灌進來所以事實上要給年輕人買得起房子不是一直給他貸款如果房價可以便宜一點的話可以好一點低一點的話年輕人可能更容易買得起房子我想請教您"},{"start":9957.19,"end":9982.27,"text":"您這個停止信用管制的指標你說我們一直在講說全部的銀行不動產貸款佔總放款的比例太高就是貸款集中度太高現在的貸款集中度現在是36.71到8月份然後你在當時你們啟動第一波的時候那時候2020年12月的時候12月8號的時候那時候的不動產貸款集中度是35.9"},{"start":9984.051,"end":10004.161,"text":"所以你的這個標準是在哪裡到時候你的停止信用管制的指標會在哪個階段呢我跟委員報告這個集中度是一個很重要的觀察指標但是中央銀行不是只有觀察它而已我們還有觀察到其他的一些的指標包括我們的不動產的信用"},{"start":10013.647,"end":10028.76,"text":"對 指示也是 很多指示整個房價的趨勢 很多 我理解但是如果大家以前以為的天條我們行政院動不動就把天條再加例外…天條就不會變成是天條 房地產業在說所以政府一邊在採油門另外一邊在採…"},{"start":10040.65,"end":10057.561,"text":"一邊在踩煞車另外一邊踩油門這台車可能會壞掉我看這個很嚴重政府的部門的行政的好像腳步不太一樣我想請教您當然我很佩服您堅持這個勇氣也是跟你支持但是您有說過"},{"start":10059.562,"end":10074.438,"text":"房地產產業是不是為驅動經濟成長之主力以營建工程業 浦東產產對經濟貢獻以及收購員工比例低的這個因素這個央行給我們的參考資料說否定這一題就是說房地產不是火車頭"},{"start":10075.819,"end":10089.924,"text":"你們有給我們資料我想告訴你在2020年的時候那時候的內政部長叫做徐國勇現在的執政黨的秘書長他說不動產是真正的火車頭這是他說法 媒體有報導房地產業是護國群山真正的火車頭因為帶動了上下游各個行業包括各個產業的發展"},{"start":10103.31,"end":10108.253,"text":"你的言論跟現在執政黨秘書長不大一樣你會不會感受到執政黨的壓力不會 不會嗎你能撐得住嗎不 我們只是就數據我們來顯現它對我們GDP的一個貢獻因為像我們看到你們一樣所以你在第四季總結到的時候會不會選擇放寬選擇性信用管制以現在的情形"},{"start":10128.268,"end":10132.392,"text":"我們會繼續的滾動式的檢討但是呢我目前我也很難去跟委員說到今天為止的情形是到今天為止的情形到目前為止的話來看的話因為跟我們9月的跟我們9月我們的禮監事的時間還很短"},{"start":10149.571,"end":10175.51,"text":"這間中間所以還不會到目前為止以後還有兩個月不知道但是到目前為止還不會選擇性放寬但是你這樣站得很穩希望這個房價有所鬆動當然現在房地產業也都是這樣看但在這之前在行政院提出這個新清安的那件事情把你天條給它解禁以後事實上整個又起了很大的變化不然本來我們覺得鬆動鬆動可能有可能往下了比較恢復一點正常"},{"start":10176.391,"end":10199.732,"text":"不只年輕人 各個年齡層的人擁有還有剛性虛擁痛比較可以慢慢負擔得起當然也還是太高但是慢慢負擔但是我看你的你雖然這麼堅持但是我看行政院如果一直在走不同的路你在煞車行政院一直在加油的話我看這個也是很艱辛您這個當然您是獨立但是獨立這個也是很艱辛希望您還是維持一樣有骨氣我們跟你支持"},{"start":10201.073,"end":10226.198,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝總裁我們想請教財經公司高鐵的話緊急停用台灣Pay的部分您是台灣Pay你們公司是台灣Pay的開發運營者對吧跟委員報告我們沒有自己參與最前面的QR Code的共通支付標準你們弄了一個平台銀行 電子產業 商業 商家都可以做電子支付平台你知道為什麼高鐵緊急停用台灣Pay嗎"},{"start":10227.058,"end":10239.231,"text":"跟委員報告就是高鐵是因為他這個購票用台灣Pay購票之後有被詐騙利用然後去退現金因為你在購票上面顯示是現金啊票捐上面顯示現金嘛所以去退票的時候就退了現金嘛"},{"start":10242.774,"end":10266.305,"text":"結果被詐騙級 我們詐騙局員都這詐騙局員都時代很進步他們都跟著很多這個發展這個很多人都不知道上面可以用這個方法詐騙局員時時在關注任何可能的詐騙漏洞詐騙局員就用這個東西因為這樣退票的時候領先不用驗證個資就變成他們鑽漏洞台灣詐騙這麼猖獗實在是詐騙局員也花了很多心力在這個看怎麼來鑽漏洞但是我們身為政府的公司"},{"start":10267.646,"end":10284.748,"text":"財經公司身為政府的公司事實上在設計前面的這些整個過程或是整個過程的時候事實上也應該要非常的小心尤其你們是代表政府跟委員報告就是我們的機制上面來看那這些高鐵他們所以不是你們的問題是高鐵的問題就對了"},{"start":10286.069,"end":10292.971,"text":"因為就是機制上面匯款要對到原帳戶你告訴我財經公司沒有問題這個漏洞是高鐵的問題因為印出來是高鐵印的票是機制上面財經電腦是沒有問題是財經公司設計上的問題還是高鐵印製的問題因為他印出現金讓他可以現金然後高鐵就用現金給人家退以這個個案來看是高鐵不是個案 整個案子"},{"start":10307.195,"end":10316.275,"text":"因為台灣變成洗錢的管道高鐵這個事情來看是高鐵公司跟收單銀行合作產生的問題所以是那家銀行的問題還是高鐵的問題是合作銀行的問題嗎"},{"start":10317.342,"end":10344.789,"text":"因為這個合作銀行就是這個售單銀行要跟高鐵去協商他怎麼去印製這些東西所以是售單銀行那是哪一家售單銀行這個高鐵的售單目前是台新銀行台新銀行 OK好 那沒關係這個東西我們會跟金管會再繼續請教你的意思是財經公司沒有問題就對了在機制上沒有問題規定上也是要退到原帳戶你們要非常的注意尤其你們是國家的就是一定要注意你們不能"},{"start":10346.309,"end":10366.465,"text":"不停止詐騙還那個變成你們理論上你們是要讓詐騙很多洞都讓詐騙團不能猖獗因為詐騙太猖獗已經變成一個很大的產業了你們還讓詐騙團有洞可以鑽那高鐵當然如果照你這樣講高鐵我也會去問他們高鐵當然負很大的責任那當然相對應的銀行我們也會跟金管會相關單位來請他們來檢討來講一下下一題數位券的問題"},{"start":10372.065,"end":10400.983,"text":"那你高鐵的問題是你說的嘛來 我相信你啦好 數位券的問題你沒有在中央銀行指導下做一個數位公共建設的金流平台數位券嘛這個相當好啦把所有的民眾習慣APP什麼這些都整合在一起變成一個多營的這個生態體系我覺得這個也是非常支持那這個東西又借街的速發布的這個政府機關公用平台嘛那因為台灣的這個數位支付這個東西實在是比較慢大家如果有去過中國大陸我知道大陸真的是很"},{"start":10401.483,"end":10426.845,"text":"很快很進步各方面都尤其在數位這個發展的部分那沒關係我們進步不然沒關係但是我們至少不要有一些容易被詐騙或中間的這個很多漏洞甚至怎麼樣鼓勵大家可以這樣使用電子支付也比較符合這個資源的這個比較不浪費資源那想請教你這個整合完成這個縣市政府如果有自行發行的這個數位券你是不是可以順利也可以讓各縣市政府借到你們這個平台上"},{"start":10427.629,"end":10452.35,"text":"跟委員報告這個平台是可以支援這種服務的可以嗎好那我跟你說一下我們金門縣政府115年明年開始會發一個感恩券這個感恩券以前是我們發那個酒感恩量酒那現在為了促進這個地區的消費促進做一個新循環的經濟那把要發給老百姓的一些福利原來的現金給付的福利變成本來是慰助酒品感恩量變成明年春節開始變成發券"},{"start":10454.111,"end":10476.829,"text":"券紙張紙張一張一張的等於是消費券那種券我們叫感恩券那這個感恩券現在是紙本那未來是不是可以用數位券的方式我們數位券的方式因為這樣可以配合比如我們有一些商家做電子支付做這個電子的線上的這個購物然後這個我們有一些鄉親可能在台灣地區居住不是在金門在台灣那也可以用數位的這個"},{"start":10477.949,"end":10493.456,"text":"這個券的方式在上電子網去購買電商我們金門的相關商因為我們目的是要促進金門的這個經濟發展那這部分我們財經公司是不是可以來協助我們金門縣主來規劃來借鑑委員報告是可以喔好 那來聯絡我一下好 謝謝您謝謝好 謝謝陳一貞委員 謝謝接下來請岳元之委員質詢"},{"start":10513.468,"end":10516.41,"text":"主席好 麻煩請總裁好 請楊總裁葉委員早總裁你好我是想跟您反映有關於現代令的問題當然剛剛現代令政府的政策要打房這些我都沒有意見當然醫治房價那些政府有做法但是想跟你反映幾個狀況第一個狀況是換屋主"},{"start":10540.963,"end":10563.005,"text":"我們那邊有一個民眾他是想要換屋然後換屋的原因是因為他本來一個小孩也大了然後想要再生一個然後原來的房子不夠住了就想要換那因為要買第二間貸款就只能貸五成然後銀行當然可以簽個切結書就是說假設你第一間在一年半"},{"start":10563.846,"end":10592.995,"text":"之內賣掉的話你可以貸八成但是如果沒有賣掉的話就要追回但是因為一般銀行就覺得麻煩想說還要去追很麻煩所以他現在就不容易貸款現在就只有兩種做法一種做法就是把第一間賣掉然後去租房子然後想辦法再買第二間然後第二個就是再以拖代變反正小孩就先不生看看政府的政策有沒有改變來解決他的"},{"start":10594.065,"end":10610.627,"text":"目前遇到困境我覺得這個因為現在有國安問題如果遇到有年輕人他想生小孩想要換屋但是在換屋這一塊又遇到一些貸款的問題讓他減少生小孩的意願我不知道"},{"start":10611.688,"end":10626.085,"text":"總裁這邊有什麼看法或一些配套措施嗎我跟委員報告如果說你的這個鄰居他面臨的這個問題不是我鄰居 是那個民眾民眾的反應好 沒關係就是說那個民眾可以"},{"start":10631.61,"end":10651.167,"text":"来跟我们的业务局我们有申诉的管道我们有15线他来跟我们申诉他跟哪一家银行因为他符合这个资格这个银行又说他没有符合这个资格有些时候双照之间就必须要有些时候是要对质了"},{"start":10652.288,"end":10656.131,"text":"也不一定就說他講的就對跟你反映一下你這個是政策跟現實的落差您最好可以去了解一下我們了解這個案子你可以去了解因為實際上他就是遇到這個困難您的意思是說銀行不能拒絕貸款只要能夠簽這一年半就一定要貸您的想法是這樣嗎否則申訴等一下我們先理清問題不然會吵不完您的意思是說"},{"start":10679.006,"end":10700.397,"text":"他就是可以來檢舉他可以來申訴申訴銀行會有問題但是實際上實務上就不是這樣所以因為今天我們就是反映這個意見給你你去了解一下看這個狀況多不多銀行遇到我剛剛講的狀況的時候是不是會很樂意的貸款還是說會找很多理由您可以去了解一下這是第一件事情第二件事情因為我們現在賴政府"},{"start":10704.659,"end":10730.368,"text":"也在推自主都更我看卓鴻泰院長的講法是說自主都更比較好因為他可以避免被建商扣掉行政成本容積的部分地主可以換得比較多可是卓院長他提出來的方案是希望這些地主去找一個建金公司然後說建金公司後面會有金融支持然後也可以協助建築營建這一塊不是一樣的意思"},{"start":10731.277,"end":10748.654,"text":"你現在只是把那些行政成本從建商轉移到建金公司那地主並沒有換你比較多還是一樣要付行政成本那自主都更是有一個啦就是如果說地主成立自主更新會自主更新會的話當然"},{"start":10749.915,"end":10778.333,"text":"他們的地主自己籌一個會然後去找銀行貸款然後再找建商來蓋的話當然行政成本就會比較低但問題是自主更新會又會遇到一個問題銀行也不太會願意貸給自主更新會為什麼因為建商就是一個銀行跟他簽約簡單如果100個地主 更多200個地主銀行怎麼會願意去跟那麼多人簽所以這個部分我覺得你要給卓議員長建議"},{"start":10780.174,"end":10791.803,"text":"他如果要推自主都更當然很好因為現在我們那個危老很多全台灣幾十萬三十年以上屋齡的老房子要推當然是要做可是在貸款這塊會遇到問題沒有錯總裁怎麼看"},{"start":10794.625,"end":10796.486,"text":"是 沒有錯 事實上內政部據我了解內政部他也要來修好像是他也有一個獎勵的有一個措施要來promote自主度工他也來跟我們中央銀行接洽過我們也做了一些的建立給他"},{"start":10820.535,"end":10822.936,"text":"所以我是覺得剛剛你建議給他你沒有跟我講所以我也不知道你建議他什麼我剛剛講的問題會不會發生那你要怎麼解決"},{"start":10833.935,"end":10861.97,"text":"當然 這個應該是內政部的事情銀行貸款 銀行會願意去跟譬如地主很多自主更新會這一塊對 他好像他也有一些的優惠要怎麼優惠來一個什麼優惠他有一個中介平台央行也去了解一下 好不好事實上有 前一陣子我們也有跟他那給我書面好不好 書面好啊 可以啊你剛剛什麼細節都沒講"},{"start":10864.151,"end":10885.927,"text":"這個滿detail的啦你書面打封你連大概都沒講還detail這個又不是我們沒關係啦書面主席站起來了總裁就用書面打封什麼時候書面給我什麼時候這detail要用書面打封對書面大概什麼時候一個月啦好不好這個也要一個月喔這個也要一個月兩禮拜好了啦兩個禮拜啦謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員接下來請謝一鋒委員質詢"},{"start":10906.197,"end":10910.186,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請楊總裁好 請楊總裁"},{"start":10918.665,"end":10937.602,"text":"我昨天要來我還特別去查了我不知道你們會做數字早知道我就叫你報告先給我看經濟成長數字你們會做那請問一下我看到了你們預估就是你們對於國內外機構都統計好了今年的數字經濟成長是5%"},{"start":10940.103,"end":10962.371,"text":"明年是2.36%對 我們是平均的 對那你覺得今年就是因為搶單的問題對不對 關稅 美國關稅等等然後一些搶單的問題但是未來當關稅抵定之後明年的"},{"start":10964.072,"end":10985.844,"text":"經濟數字有沒有辦法達到現在你們所預估的就是這樣子的一個2.36的平均值我想就是說我坦白跟委員報告在這一段川普的一個政策裡說實在的不確定性很高"},{"start":10987.06,"end":10998.944,"text":"我所說的不確定性很高的意思是說要做一個很準確的一個預測不大容易不容易所以就是說它的誤差所以它的誤差會很大我舉一個例子給你聽譬如說一開始的時候川普他4月的時候那個時候你看看大家都說經濟會很差大家都是說大概就是3%以下"},{"start":11017.512,"end":11041.993,"text":"是不是因为它的对等关税即便增加了以后有非常多的是豁免以及例外是就不确定性有些时候他又说这样有些时候又这样所以对于台湾或者是对于美国有需要的商品他们就把它列为豁免或者是例外吗"},{"start":11043.333,"end":11064.561,"text":"台湾这一波里面当然有一些是因为抢单有一些是因为美国必须的可是明年呢有我们台湾的其他的财经的部会认为明年的数字绝对比2.36好你认为呢"},{"start":11065.181,"end":11075.027,"text":"比這個2.3還好是不是對啊是有可能也有可能你也覺得有可能是真的我覺得就以前我們都說以為是拉貨效應到下半年的時候不是因為它對AI相關的電子資通訊的產品它的一個熱絡是真的好像是持續的而且"},{"start":11089.535,"end":11109.168,"text":"為什麼很多機構都說明年也不悲觀就因為他認為說不定這個現象都會延續到明年那我問你再請教你那發現金呢發現金我們11月就要發現金了發現金對於明年度整體的經濟成長"},{"start":11110.919,"end":11117.78,"text":"我想發現金發現金對我們的經濟成長是有但是我們的經濟成長不依賴這發一萬塊的現金我是說對於內需內需應該是會有幫助但是我認為不是說我們的經濟成長就要依賴這個不是2023年的時候我們發的6000塊對於經濟成長的"},{"start":11138.755,"end":11163.849,"text":"他有啦 有估計啦 0.15是不是有估計啦 這個估計說多少這個都是參考參考啦所以你不贊成發現金是不是發現金好啊 對每一個人好但是對整體來講的話他的幫助是不是真的是非常高這個有些時候還是不能很確定的啦"},{"start":11164.667,"end":11189.724,"text":"好 我最後一個問題你說了要換新幣是不是未來2.5年未來的兩年內要換新幣在你任期這個任期結束前是不是是啦 應該啦我想請問大家都討論了是我們換新幣的這樣子的成本預估500億是不是沒有"},{"start":11190.484,"end":11192.266,"text":"500億是以前的時候我們說連銅板都一直改版銅板的改版的成本非常高那時候大概預估銅板光是銅板就400多億"},{"start":11208.22,"end":11218.265,"text":"我想要問你的是發行新幣時候我們政府部門對於所有用這個新鈔的人所謂的鑄幣稅"},{"start":11221.021,"end":11236.45,"text":"就是政府不用透過舉債的方式而是透過用硬芯幣來對於我們所有使用這個貨幣的人都收取了一個鑄幣稅"},{"start":11238.832,"end":11247.361,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我們新台幣的租幣稅很低不高我們不會中央銀行的賺錢很多都強調你說很低那為什麼你不換那個硬幣為什麼不換硬幣那就是因為"},{"start":11259.673,"end":11278.081,"text":"2月10號的時候美國川普總統就說了他說他們再也不鑄造penny就是一分錢的硬幣了為什麼因為一分錢硬幣的成本多過於他們要鑄造一分錢沒有錯所以"},{"start":11280.442,"end":11309.247,"text":"對於硬幣來講是不是你央行住硬幣的成本高過於沒有住幣稅所以你就不要住硬幣了新的硬幣硬幣不住成本的考量這個是第一個第二個電子租戶很多到最後他會把硬幣慢慢的會把它淘汰掉還有雙數字的就是2000元的或200元這個我們會考量"},{"start":11309.987,"end":11337.604,"text":"为什么不做不是说不做我们现在预计是不是因为一般民众在算术上面来讲都是10进位不是20进位的是不是是不是对于这样子技术上面大家算术的应用上面不便利是不是我想这些我们都会考量委员的这些的建议还有你的想法我们都会列入记录"},{"start":11338.683,"end":11367.956,"text":"都會列入紀錄不要藉由硬心操對民眾收取鑄幣稅這個鑄幣稅 我剛才也跟委員報告鑄幣稅說實在是不大對中央銀行來講不是重點好的 謝謝我們謝謝謝一鋒委員總裁請回接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在"},{"start":11369.332,"end":11378.439,"text":"我們接著請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在志偉OK了接下來請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":11399.711,"end":11427.771,"text":"謝主席有請中央銀行楊總裁請楊總裁邱委員早總裁早是總裁對於這個我覺得從一些民意來看您的相關的政策作為是一般產業對您是非常敬畏非常敬畏對您的一言一行對您所發表任何言論是通常沒辦法匆匆忙忙"},{"start":11429.353,"end":11439.638,"text":"是 戒慎恐懼好 這個我們也要自己檢討我們也自己檢討我這幾天看到一個媒體報導媒體報導就是針對你們對這個等一下我看一下這個不動產跟這個金融投資業對"},{"start":11458.899,"end":11479.598,"text":"他們的對經濟成長貢獻度那當然央行有龐大的這個研究團隊你說這個營造業跟不動產的貢獻度加起來只有0.13 0.07跟0.06%那跟這個組織總數跟中研院做出的包括營建業跟不動產業占GDP的比例"},{"start":11481.018,"end":11501.551,"text":"他加起來超過12%遠超過6.42的金融業那這個生產餘額呢生產的毛額營造業加起來跟不動產業加起來有2.6兆也超過金融業的1.6兆當然他說的他的標題比較比較這個聳動說央行別亂開地圖炮你知道這什麼地圖炮"},{"start":11508.74,"end":11535.53,"text":"媒體的評論 央行不要亂開地圖炮什麼叫地圖炮 就對某個群體進行攻擊對某個群體它有一個特定的立場因為這立場不見得是客觀的那當然相關的工會也會提出相關的數據反駁您對於所謂營造業 營建業跟不動產業對我國經濟的重要性為什麼差距如此之大"},{"start":11537.031,"end":11558.013,"text":"您的看法呢基本上我跟委員報告我們做這一份報告主要的我們不是針對他針對我們的事實上我們剛剛我也有回答我們的委員當時我們是看到就是說在很多的"},{"start":11559.314,"end":11563.177,"text":"報導裡面都說火車那個不動產業是我們的經濟的火車頭這是第一個第二個呢有一篇社論呢他也這麼認為但是呢我們覺得中央銀行根據那個數據我們分析的結果應該我們只是最主要我們只是說要呈現那個數據給大家我們沒有就是說要"},{"start":11586.735,"end":11599.973,"text":"後來也就是說看到我們的Q&A說實在的委員我也跟你說一個這個就好像是故事"},{"start":11601.061,"end":11602.942,"text":"事實上當時我們在記者會記者會的時候本來我是要把這個護錄PO出去的"},{"start":11619.173,"end":11643.151,"text":"那後來我跟我們同事講就是說這個PO出去不好啦這個好像會讓人家我打斷您的話我打斷您的故事因為我有很多故事要跟你說這個你要發表任何數據一定要是要很客觀不是你們央行的研究團隊的結果你要參考組織總署參考中心院的相關的數據來做一個橫頻的報導所以我建議這是溝通的問題我不是說你的數據有問題"},{"start":11647.754,"end":11658.581,"text":"但是跟其他的單位包括公會跟中經院跟組織總署提出的數據是不一樣的而且差別很大所以造成民眾的混淆應該都是一樣的應該大家都是用那個組織總署的數據"},{"start":11665.549,"end":11686.779,"text":"主計總署的數據呢2024年主要行業明目生產毛爾占明目基地列比重總裁我先不跟你討論我有空再跟你討論因為我這邊還有10個故事要跟你說我只講了一個故事所以為什麼你的一言一行你的這個記者會也好或者公布的這個新聞稿也好所有的行業都戰戰兢兢包括金融業也是一樣好 這個選擇性信用管是從2020年12月以來第7波"},{"start":11693.482,"end":11721.038,"text":"你們最調整的主要的檢討或者調整的主要的依據或者主要的參考是什麼是不是這個不動產貸款集中度我看你們報告裡面從去年的最高點37.61一年降到今年8月的36.71要降到什麼樣水準你才會覺得有可能去調整或者是檢討這個選擇性信用管制或者放鬆"},{"start":11723.079,"end":11738.07,"text":"還是有其他的數據參考包委員 事實上我們參考的數據不是只有集中度還有一些的指標還有哪些指標 你們說明一下包括就是說我們不動產的它的一個成長率"},{"start":11738.791,"end":11743.498,"text":"住宅的那個貸款的那個成長率是怎麼樣建築融資的成長率是怎麼樣整體的那個什麼不弄產業的那個融資的成長率是怎麼樣這個都是我們觀察還有包括你的那個大概有幾項指標你們大概說一下大概幾項指標"},{"start":11755.055,"end":11770.256,"text":"這些都是還有包括你的那個房價的指數這個都是我們觀察的指標還有他的交換他的那個交易的那個動數你們把所有您做決策或怎麼樣你做的決策的參考的這個依據啊你能不能有一個清單給我們做參考"},{"start":11772.318,"end":11774.779,"text":"我們觀察的 我可以列出給委員就是說哪些的指標是我們觀察的事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":11796.388,"end":11818.107,"text":"我們在我們的報告裡面也都有揭露一些你的報告我詳細的總裁你這個用詳細書面去提供給秋色委員最後一個30秒就是說你們這個報告裡面銀行自主管理不動產的貸款對不對優先存在自用住宅跟這個都跟危老配合政府政策的貸款"},{"start":11819.048,"end":11835.729,"text":"那央行已經給銀行自主彈性調整空間了是什麼叫自主彈性調整空間這個太抽象你們具體的我想這個不會有抽象這個銀行都知道它不會是抽象有沒有各個銀行不同的標準"},{"start":11837.109,"end":11841.21,"text":"還是有一定適用的標準還是跟銀行不一樣不是說一定適用只要我們認為就是說他給我們揭示給我們的這些數據我們認為就是說他是因為他為什麼他會超過他的目標是因為他對首購他對都更為老對社會住宅的那個什麼的那個而導致他的這個"},{"start":11861.317,"end":11884.278,"text":"指標它的那個指數它的那個成長率高於它的目標各個銀行的自主彈性標準不一樣不一樣啊它不一樣就看它的目前狀況對 這因為它每一個銀行它的一個策略它的一個貸款的一個不太一樣我建議您再去跟所有針對這些國有銀行啊你們給它自主彈性調整空間你要去review一下有些銀行真的貸款的比登天還難"},{"start":11885.279,"end":11911.456,"text":"所以比登天還難啊比登天那是他自己的practice你已經有自主財信你已經自主財信但他還是要有些銀行是很難貸款所以你大概也要去銀行很難貸款是因為銀行他有5P他也要follow他的5P啊對不對那如果說這個借物呢他不符合他的5P那當然他是很難貸款啊這個蠻複雜的表先生再請教"},{"start":11915.165,"end":11921.931,"text":"好 謝謝 好 謝謝球組委員接下來我們請葛如軍委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請央行楊總裁好 請楊總裁"},{"start":11950.052,"end":11972.943,"text":"總裁好 首先非常感謝央行在9月初的時候有發表一份投影片提到美元穩定幣與新台幣穩定幣相關的議題說明您最近也有提到說台幣穩定幣有發行空間本席要真的是非常感謝您有這樣的一個開放的思維空間我也在我的社群媒體都說非常感動也先在這裡先謝謝楊總裁"},{"start":11975.664,"end":11995.614,"text":"我想裡面這個說明裡面有一段有簡述其實就是貨幣跟穩定幣之間相互的影響事實上我們也看到在這裡面虛擬世界的經濟的穩定幣佔比美元已經高達九成了這取得了壟斷性的地位這個圖是從你們的說明報告裡面出來的"},{"start":11999.016,"end":12022.977,"text":"那我就想說其實我們不希望說實體世界我們有台灣非常強盛的貿易我們有新台幣可是虛擬世界裡面如果沒有新台幣可能會不會影響我們的金融穩定那您之前的說法是比較開放的但是我們在今天的業務報告裡面又沒有看到這個我想問一下有沒有"},{"start":12024.218,"end":12030.963,"text":"機會我們之後有更多來自央行的對於穩定幣的一些建議我們會在相關的報告裡頭還會再看到呢會啦因為這個金管會它的一個虛擬資產服務法這個就進入已經是行政院在審查要進來給我們那個立法院那裡面就會有一張是純粹是就穩定幣的一個"},{"start":12053.778,"end":12074.886,"text":"所以這個會這個待會我們會再問一下這個總裁我想問現在這個虛擬世界都是美元90%以上的話這會影響我們新台幣的跟台灣的這個金融穩定跟金融韌性可能潛在影響還是會有對不對所以也是為什麼您之前開始比較對穩定幣的說法比較開放是這樣子嗎"},{"start":12076.646,"end":12091.974,"text":"基本上我們也希望這個就是說彭主委他也認為就是說是有發展空間中央銀行也是認為就是說是因為如果說我們的一個金融資產把它數位化"},{"start":12093.201,"end":12095.503,"text":"把它代幣化代幣化了以後第一個我們虛擬資產以新台幣計價的它就會比較蓬勃的發展這是第一個第二個在虛擬資產以新台幣來計價的會比較蓬勃發展以外穩定幣 新台幣以新台幣計價的穩定幣它才比較有發展的空間"},{"start":12120.243,"end":12143.722,"text":"我們的想法是這樣太好了謝謝因為其實我們看到報告裡面還有金管會的報告都有提到其實證券期貨業保險業三業合計其實1到8月稅前盈餘6000億元較去年同期減少2000億其實就是受到台幣升值的影響未來如果新台幣的流通減少確實就有可能在匯率上面"},{"start":12144.883,"end":12164.278,"text":"會有所不利啦所以我相信您應該也理解說跟美元這樣的深度綁定也許不太算是一個健康的方向未來如果能夠透過台幣穩定幣或者這個所謂代幣化的這個市場我們台灣的加入應該可以持續的來緩解這樣的一個狀態您同意嗎"},{"start":12166.046,"end":12181.119,"text":"可以啦 我想就是說這個今晚會他要推出這個當然我想也有他的原因啦那在這裡呢這個法呢 我想中央銀行一定會"},{"start":12182.46,"end":12204.757,"text":"會來協助他們太好了我先這個肯定央行因為早期老實說我也是CBDC的支持者但是後來看了非常多的分析報告我們對於零售型的CBDC確實有一些疑慮所以我也予以肯定說央行目前是認為零售型的CBDC沒有急迫性這樣的做法我們是肯定的"},{"start":12205.498,"end":12225.671,"text":"那我想接下來也還是要提到您剛剛說央行會支持這個虛擬資產服務法那其實這裡面有一個章節就是穩定幣那我們現在看到了從今年的10月份法國銀行巨頭要發行這個Follow Micra的這個穩定幣然後日本的三大銀行也聯手要發行"},{"start":12226.911,"end":12255.009,"text":"我們現在就真的是意識到其實穩定幣已經在貿易裡面非常受到重視我們台灣有167萬家的中小企業裡面對接國際的賣家我們其實有看到貿易協會10月20號公布的調查近半數受訪台灣企業認為穩定幣將在貿易中扮演重要的角色想要展開出息應用的近一成"},{"start":12255.569,"end":12269.9,"text":"海外台商也有將近一成已經在使用穩定幣而調查結果認為穩定幣對貿易的重要性的預估是接近50%認為是很重要的那我想未來這個穩定幣我們應該要採取在供鏈上面發行"},{"start":12271.201,"end":12271.381,"text":"到目前為止是"},{"start":12296.161,"end":12313.304,"text":"因為還是在行政院的所以我們會持續跟金管會來討論這個問題好 最後一點點時間因為近期我們看到我們的實體貿易其實佔台灣可能超過八成"},{"start":12314.085,"end":12340.29,"text":"那實體貿易就會受到我們的關稅還有各種這個國與國關係的影響那我們就必然要把很多的經濟或者我們的貿易的這個金融轉到數位的世界來保存我們的韌性跟主權那我們現在看到這樣的事情已經發生了整個實體產業又要被抓去其他的國家也許數位經濟確實是我們的一條活路跟活水"},{"start":12340.99,"end":12364.243,"text":"那我們這個根據報表我們看到下週四財委會就要排我們的虛擬資產服務專法還有執法的報告但是您剛剛提到央行支持可是行政院到現在一直還沒有送進立法院那我想這個卡應該不是卡在央行吧應該不會啦那有沒有這個總裁有沒有知道大概什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":12364.963,"end":12373.255,"text":"行程上能不能再加快一點這個程序我沒有非常的掌握不過整個主管機關還是在金管會"},{"start":12375.578,"end":12399.106,"text":"好那穩定幣的章節央行這邊應該沒有在阻擋啦不會不會絕對是不會不會在這個我們中央銀行是持開放的一個立場好那我們的金融韌性金融主權跟數位經濟的發展就有勞總裁跟我們大家一起來協助我們希望大家合作啦好謝謝總裁謝謝主席謝謝葛如軍委員"},{"start":12400.888,"end":12406.299,"text":"接下來我們請王洪威委員王洪威委員不在"},{"start":12414.875,"end":12437.751,"text":"我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下的決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢及答覆或請委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行於一週內已書面答覆委員另行要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":12439.278,"end":12447.624,"text":"本次會議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16979","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc698c973f844725bd258b47ce3ecd0e3c0aa126c40303dc279ea51de163fd25e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-23T08:38:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-23T12:44:00+08:00","duration":14751,"影片長度":"04:05:51","委員發言時間":"08:38:09 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那麼我們就先再來介紹今天列席的政府機關代表教育部朱俊章常務次長行政院人事行政總處的給予福利處的處長陳樹芝請坐然後權敘部退輔司的司長鄭淑芬"},{"start":1531.157,"end":1537.622,"text":"那其餘列席的機關代表請參閱名單本席就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那麼接下來我們就請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":1546.274,"end":1561.281,"text":"公聽會討論提綱一鑒於近年物價飛升通膨問題嚴重基層公務員又多陳情反應擔憂未來退休生活無足夠保障並建議應再行檢討現行教育人員退休所得替代率逐年調降之規定"},{"start":1562.041,"end":1587.497,"text":"請就公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條修法之必要性合理性調降時階級財務影響進行說明二依據公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第67條規定現行教職員退休後所領月退休金需待中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負50%才與調整然以當前物價波動情況"},{"start":1588.718,"end":1606.477,"text":"與檢討月退休金調整程序來看四環不計及同時參考國民年金法第五十四條之一及老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條第一項之規定消費者物價指數成長率為零或負數時國民年金和老農津貼不予調整"},{"start":1606.977,"end":1635.345,"text":"原此請就公立學校教職員退休之前輔具條例涉及月退休金調整機制之修法必要性調整條件及幅度等議題進行說明三 二零一八年公教人員年金改革法案對公部門和學校的人力資源結構帶來負面衝擊例如延退老化阻斷新人升遷士氣低落以及人才流失等後遺症請就公教人員月退休金逐年遞減法案對公教人力結構荷蘭材質影響提出說明四"},{"start":1635.845,"end":1659.064,"text":"其他與本修法案相關的議題宣讀完畢好謝謝從今天討論提供裡面可以知道我們這一次召開公聽會最重要的大概就是討論教職人員退輔條例裡面那麼涉及到有關於退休金逐年停扣逐年遞減的這個法案需不需要"},{"start":1659.954,"end":1686.282,"text":"重新再修法那麼以及針對退休金要不試著隨著物價通膨指數而來做一個例行性的檢討這兩個主要的議案來請各位專家學者來發表高見那麼在邀請各位發言之前我先就公聽會的程序進行說明首先會先請專家學者們發言那發言順序就依照簽到"},{"start":1687.902,"end":1711.986,"text":"先後的順序來進行那本院委員會按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場的話那麼本席會穿插兩安排請委員發言原則上就是在兩位學者專家發言之後再穿插一位委員發言但是如果登記發言的委員人數較多的時候呢會在上午10點30分以後登記的委員安排於所有"},{"start":1712.826,"end":1730.521,"text":"學者專家發言完畢之後再按登記的順序發言那麼學者專家以及本院委員如果需要提前發言的話也請先告知主席我們再次狀況來進行調整那原則上每位專家學者的發言是10分鐘然後委員是5分鐘"},{"start":1735.455,"end":1756.454,"text":"好 那麼當然我們最後再請政府機關代表發言那針對學者專家以及委員的意見來加以回應那與會者的話會先請至發言台發言在主席的右手邊為學者專家那麼列席機關代表的發言台那麼左手邊則是為委員的發言台那麼由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的意見"},{"start":1757.054,"end":1778.025,"text":"所以每位學者專家的發言時間是10分鐘本院發言的時間本院委員發言時間是5分鐘好 那麼我們現在就正式開始那麼首先 先請學者專家發言那先請台北市退休教職員權益促進會孫鳳群副理事長來進行發言沒有 不行 不好意思"},{"start":1801.254,"end":1815.484,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座各位先進大家好我想我們一開始就先來講砍年金它是不是屬於正當的一個改革我們就從"},{"start":1817.245,"end":1834.372,"text":"公務人員的退府條例第八條來看這一條就明擺顯示說如基金不足支付的時候應由基金檢討調整繳費費率或由政府撥款補助並由政府負最後支付責任那在年改的時候那個軍公教已經配合就是調整繳費費率由這個繳費12%調整為15%未來甚至可能到18%"},{"start":1839.534,"end":1844.821,"text":"可是呢這個員工多角少女每年已經挹注了636億每年平均636億可是就了財務缺口占65%責任的政府雇主卻是這個撥補一毛不拔這樣公平嗎而且從這一條法令可以看得出來當基金財務出問題的時候"},{"start":1857.797,"end":1861.838,"text":"這個解決方法就是只有這兩條所以我聽看理由第一點就是砍年金本來就是屬於違法改革因為通膨年年有退休金只能多不能少所以年改前的法規你找不到任何一條是允許可以用砍年金的方式來進行改革"},{"start":1875.563,"end":1886.658,"text":"像國民黨就比較有價值他們在民國88年跟99年公保跟私銷退股基金有破產風險的時候他們都是採用逐額撥補的方式逐額撥補的方式來處理舊的財務缺口"},{"start":1891.24,"end":1895.224,"text":"然後還有第二個理由就是這個砍年金是不可能徹底解決破產問題的你只有依法諸何般不會像台灣五十一樣賺7%才是破產的一個資本的方法因為107年已經驗證了就是用砍年金的方式134年照樣會破產"},{"start":1912.182,"end":1915.225,"text":"所以政府講的是這個說什麼停砍年金會提早這個再提早4年破產他沒有講的是即使不停砍也照樣會破產所以證實這根本就是砍年金根本就是超短線沒有用的改革那相對的政府沒有撥補績效不好才是基金破產的主因也是對不起年輕人的元兇"},{"start":1932.819,"end":1944.604,"text":"那這個用撥補來解決這也不是我說的這個是政府自己出的精算報告就明擺了這個寫出每年對公務人員專案撥補新台幣428億元則未來50年基金不會用慶未來50年基金不會破產不會用慶就是不會破產那麼教師是390億元所以足額撥補或是績效好才是不破產的真正的解方"},{"start":1959.03,"end":1965.535,"text":"然後當然我們更希望就是說如果能夠像經算報告講的一樣就是說這個基金績效夠好的話就好像經算報告顯示的就公務人員跟教師就賺7%左右的話那麼這個基金自己就會轉"},{"start":1974.622,"end":1977.964,"text":"自己就會賺到前面所講的那七八百億元所以就是說甚至政府也不用撥補了那當然也不會破產不過因為政府就是又搞出了一個另立新基金的洞"},{"start":1989.79,"end":2005.346,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠初期先向張智委員幫我們提出的幫我們提案的就是增訂中央政府每年應編列不低於各級政府所節省退府經費之兩倍數而挹注退府基金也就是說我們每年被砍的400多億來挹注退府基金"},{"start":2011.132,"end":2012.613,"text":"那相對的我們是繳35%政府提繳65%是相當於我們的兩倍所以它相對撥補我們預註金額的兩倍這也是合理的事情而且你現在不逐年撥補分期撥補300多億的話你等到破產以後再來撥補"},{"start":2033.667,"end":2043.52,"text":"就要撥補800多億我之前算過就是說公務人員跟教師你如果現在就開始撥補的話是可以幫這個國家省各一兆總共可以省兩兆所以越早撥補越省錢"},{"start":2049.104,"end":2073.418,"text":"然後我的這個聽感的第三個理由就是之前這個政府一直抹黑說這個救治還有18%是害基金破產這根本就是刺激大變局我們從這個退休法第六條最後兩句就可以看到退府新制實施後的年資才能夠由這個退府基金支付也就是說舉例今天一個83年退休的老師他根本沒有領到退府基金半毛錢"},{"start":2074.278,"end":2079.459,"text":"沒有領到退伏基金半毛錢可是它卻因此被砍了2萬5到3萬你說這有天理嗎另外18%也是必須要有救治的年資才能夠換算的它也沒有領到退伏基金半毛錢而且從另外一個角度可以看到就是說18%就公保優存它是不可能領到第二層退伏基金的錢因為它跟勞保一樣都是屬於第一層的社會保險"},{"start":2101.184,"end":2104.665,"text":"那它就像勞保不可能領到第二層的勞退的錢是一樣的那麼第一層的公保優存俗稱的18%不可能領到第二層退伏基金的錢那也就是說政府根本就是砍錯了亂砍一通那還不想著要彌補修正那就讓這些無辜老人被砍"},{"start":2119.631,"end":2126.638,"text":"那這個是不是非常的過分然後第四個理由就是我常常不知道這個政府的這個算盤是怎麼打的就是說你讓這個資深老師因為退休金在太低不敢退休那這個人事支出根本就會更多的"},{"start":2135.307,"end":2141.231,"text":"因為一個資深老師的年薪跟新老師的年薪可以差距70萬也就是說一個資深老師他是可以養兩個新進老師還綽綽有餘所以你這樣根本就是人事支出也沒有比較省錢你卻阻擋了年輕人的工作跟升遷的機會甚至因為退休金沒有保障現在還在鬧教師荒那真的是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":2162.925,"end":2168.692,"text":"然後再來第五點就是我們的一個改革幅度真的已經非常真的是太大了因為你砍到底的話平均會達到29%到38%那即便是我們現在停砍也只救回大概4年只救回這個1.5乘以4差不多6%而已"},{"start":2179.384,"end":2183.165,"text":"那也就是說我們已經被砍了25%以上了被砍了25%以上了那已經被砍了這25%還會繼續挹注去拯救基金所以民進黨的這些什麼委員林萬億他們還在那邊說謊造謠說以後就沒有錢可以拯救基金了這根本就是非常可惡的說法非常可惡的說法"},{"start":2201.63,"end":2203.671,"text":"第六點就是我們都知道這幾年的通膨非常的高如果以通膨3%來講的話23年後我們的購買率會減半也就舉例現在4萬元未來只剩下2萬的價值因為現在每年的平均通膨大概是2.65%"},{"start":2224.839,"end":2246.008,"text":"為什麼講4萬呢因為公務人員的人數最多的見任期等他們被砍到底就只剩下4萬1所以可以預想見的是20幾年後他們的退休金可能如果現在沒有做彌補的話可能只剩下2萬多的價值就在他們預料需求最大的時候"},{"start":2248.37,"end":2264.606,"text":"所以我們也強烈要求第67條應該要修訂為隨物價指數核實調整因為這也是確定給付至退休金的管理通例甚至連大法官都幫我們注意到了他們在4至781到783號都提出"},{"start":2269.19,"end":2289.072,"text":"政府有維持退休金的一個價值不隨時間 不隨通膨而產生實質減少的義務甚至還明示要參照勞保條例依消費者物價指數調整月退休金然後要求主管機關應該要儘速修正可是現在已經拖了5、6年了"},{"start":2291.094,"end":2319.362,"text":"我們就來看一下勞工保險條例是怎麼樣的就是說他們就是當消費指數累計成長率到5%的時候他就依該成長率調整之就依該成長率何時調整而國民年金跟老農津貼它都有相同的規定可是反觀我們公務人員67條就還要考量什麼國家經濟政府財政簡直就是要過五關斬六將非常的不公平"},{"start":2320.662,"end":2323.583,"text":"那我們就來看一下就是說勞保的核實調整長怎麼樣子就是說他們每超過5%你看他們連小數點都調整甚至有一年還調到7.4%然後有時候還調到6.7%總之就是通膨幾%他們就調整幾%通膨幾%就調整幾%"},{"start":2341.031,"end":2364.475,"text":"然後國民年金最近的一次調整就是7.34%所以我們深深覺得我們就像三等公民一樣不如勞保 國保 農保也不如縣子因為相同時期調整的幅度我們就比縣子整整少了5%這個影響所及就以同樣年資30年做例子後退休的人會比前退休的人多領3000塊也就是說你同樣為國家貢獻30年可是你的退休金會少3000塊"},{"start":2369.136,"end":2379.119,"text":"以後隨著現值加薪這個差距還會再擴大形成這個差別待遇所以既然有大法官要求立法院應該即刻修法所以我們就拜託委員們能夠即刻幫我們修這一條法令還有其他職業別都有隨消費者物價指數調整的現行條文作為類推原則的適用"},{"start":2390.083,"end":2412.624,"text":"所以我們67條應該也可以作為這個相類似的法令做這個劣推原則的適用然後第三點就是像我剛舉例的就是說已經形成差別待遇以後還會再擴大這個是違反這個程序法規定就是說非要有正當理由不得為差別待遇的規定所以我們強烈主張就是67條應該遵照大法官指示立刻修法就比照這個勞保"},{"start":2414.225,"end":2437.632,"text":"就是當消費者物價指數達到5%的時候應該立即依照該成長率調整之後應該立即依照該成長率核實調整之後我的報告到此結束 謝謝大家好 謝謝接下來我們就請第二位柯智軒理事全國教育產業總工會柯智軒理事發言好 謝謝"},{"start":2445.427,"end":2470.212,"text":"好 藝作集各位嘉賓大家好那我今天我的主講的主題就是縣子老師不可不知的真相我現在就要來簡潔的說一下政府的失能欺騙跟怠惰我是義務教育階段的縣子教師我同時也是一個強調勞方要團結的公會的理事"},{"start":2476.513,"end":2494.647,"text":"好 那我就直接來說明依據公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第八條規定退撫基金是由教職員跟政府共同來撥繳月退撫基金並由政府來負最後支付保證責任這個法律義務非常清楚"},{"start":2500.233,"end":2525.433,"text":"那按月政府應該要撥繳65%而教職員繳付35%這也非常清楚那政府不思進取然後面對該撥補的65%的責任一拖再拖甚至完全沒有撥補放任救濟金到現在完全沒有撥補每年都以複利的累積速度擴大最後再讓全民為政府這個慣老闆不負責任買單"},{"start":2531.756,"end":2542.514,"text":"這一張圖看得也很清楚這是依照都是依照政府自己的資料退休撫恤之前法的第八次清算報告大家可以看到黃色反黃的部分"},{"start":2543.547,"end":2548.749,"text":"1042億元這是政府應該撥補的那政府從113年到114年應該撥補的1042億元實際撥補是0元113年到114年政府利益新基金實際應該要撥補的是400億元實際撥補是294億元也沒有撥補到位"},{"start":2578.204,"end":2606.402,"text":"那依照第八次跟第九次精算報告來比較的話就如前面我們的專家學者有提到50年不用進不用晚政府每年應該撥補的金額那已經因為沒有實際上撥補從521億元增加到818億元這政府可說是荒唐我認為政府應該立刻依照精算報告完全完整的撥補"},{"start":2611.482,"end":2629.541,"text":"那為什麼身為縣職教師要聲援退休的前輩呢本來也有不少基層老師真的相信年金改革後會健全年金讓以後退休仍然有曙光但是後來發現當初政府要我們共體時間而等國家超增稅收財政大好的時候"},{"start":2630.715,"end":2645.569,"text":"卻沒有在物價節節上漲的現在政府也要拉退休前輩一把的意思我們可以從國家的總預算案這個是行政院主計總署自己的做的這個表格大家可以看到114年3.15兆那105年114年期間超收人民稅收共1兆1912億元好 那我們來算一算"},{"start":2657.543,"end":2685.84,"text":"賴政府繼承中央政府結餘款1兆763億元那預算是近3兆元去年超收5283億稅金政府手上有4兆6046億元居然還放話大喊沒有錢那請問錢在哪裡那更不要說限職教師持續往上調整的提撥費率沒有停止的現象"},{"start":2687.076,"end":2704.614,"text":"那我們身邊的老師在工會裡面我們常常問到其他老師有誰看不出來這就是每年實質的減薪呢何況現在每個月繳的比勞保近五到六倍五到六倍以上的保險及退服基金這本來就是我們勞動的代價本來就是我們的地研的薪資我們的產值"},{"start":2706.994,"end":2730.665,"text":"那我們不禁懷疑到時候會不會再以基金加上破產的理由再以教師領太多教師是米蟲來抹黑教師讓社會以為教師才是浪費稅金的兇手我們嚴正對政府提出質疑因為今日之退休教師就是我們明日限職教師的處境限職教師和退休教師都是牢方我們同樣都被無良的資方虧待"},{"start":2731.937,"end":2745.433,"text":"放眼哪個國家不會感謝勞工為公司奉獻為國家奉獻還帶頭放話退休勞工害得現職勞工權益受損不禁要問請問勞工不是政府心中最柔軟的那一塊嗎"},{"start":2751.286,"end":2774.102,"text":"限職教師正在經歷的是工作環境的劣化我要講一點限職我們現在校園的真實處境要講真話除了政府為年金改惡挑起的世代對立那我們感受到的是另一場刻意要設計教師讓教師不明欲退場就是濫訴不用成本和有罪退訂的校士會議制度這個惡法令很多戒退教師心寒本來想退休"},{"start":2775.305,"end":2792.624,"text":"看到退休差不多等於自尋死路之後於是又咬著牙漆黃的繼續過我們的日子年輕心血也不願進來因為教師坦白說我們感受到的是沒有尊嚴無法安享退休所以教師荒的產生我們為什麼要意外"},{"start":2793.936,"end":2822.743,"text":"那面對今年如此緊急的開學教師荒政府在8月25日的時候新聞發布時聲稱只是職缺刊登數真正的數字是1429位而這1429位教師過四天之後居然就銳減成七分之一的數字原來政府的做法只是把表面缺少老師的數字降低而已面對教師荒胸中其實沒有任何策略就是讓學校老師把課捐回去大家可以看一下"},{"start":2823.701,"end":2852.66,"text":"PPT因為教育部自己說研議採內校內教採樣校內教室跨校教室或退休教室兼課把課兼回去嘛那其實有解決嗎沒有啊好那不但沒有看到錯誤接下來第二步又再度把教育專業判死刑送進墳墓竟然要開放不經過完整私資培育教育的人員送進中小學的校園這種荒唐作為不叫慣老闆嗎"},{"start":2853.683,"end":2882.099,"text":"那到底哪一間公司要招聘助理最後讓助理在公司裡做的是經理和工程師加業務的代表工作那根本就是逢金當馬糧專業踐踏在地上請政府不要為了降低失業率我們懷疑新任政府的民眾把新任政府的民眾送進校園受苦教育是有專業的近來航運產業的員工猝死事件都顯示資方慣性的思維就是減少人事成本榨乾員工為目的"},{"start":2883.482,"end":2900.612,"text":"有聽過民間公司的老闆常用的伎倆就是用磕帶員工來逼員工離職或者是分化員工阻礙員工行使團結跟發展以上手段怎麼看都像是惡老闆合理的懷疑處刑機率最好是不用拿出員工的退休金"},{"start":2902.952,"end":2925.968,"text":"那同學 可以看一下薪資缺乏吸引力 薪資衝突頻繁 勞動條件不佳已經有7.4萬名具有教師證的准教師選擇不投入教職了這個情勢其實相當嚴峻啊好 那政府的撥補 在勞保勞退部分就是改革為了我們大公教退休金就不是呢"},{"start":2927.498,"end":2951.82,"text":"除了政府編預算撥補退府基金的水池另外退府基金經營績效獲利的多寡也影響基金基營績效基金池水的來源基金的來源但政府自己管基金從85年到現在經營績效有達到先進國家的水準嗎退府基金除了政府預算的撥補更重要的是經營投資績效政府做好了嗎"},{"start":2953.77,"end":2972.947,"text":"現在基金的績效有起死回生的現象基金績效好政府的撥補就可以少這是很簡單的道理啊不要再把基金交給造成持續虧損的單位操作這也是教師團體的良心建言但我們的政府就是一直聽不進去我們的會府基金依照政府之前的做法已經調整了費率"},{"start":2973.968,"end":2983.981,"text":"但現在我們卻發現就像搭飛機一樣買了商務艙的票價最後卻只能做經濟艙買了300萬的保險卻只能理賠100萬政府根本沒有誠信啊"},{"start":2987.572,"end":3010.798,"text":"那本人在此以縣職教三公會成員的身份沉重呼籲除了修正公立學校退休之前撫恤條例月退休金月撫恤金依屬年金的依照消費者物價指數CPI比照勞保國保農保核實調整並立即依法憑精算報告逐年撥補足額進入退撫基金盡好政府的責任政府如果把基金的績效維持在預設好的7%以上當然可以更優化"},{"start":3012.659,"end":3040.549,"text":"積極為員工建立好基金盡好照顧員工的責任不要抹黑軍公教不要搞世代鬥爭依法撥補讓基金缺口不要擴大才是真正把關稅金最後建議政府不要再忙著挑動對立撕裂族群全教材一直都向政府提出把鬥爭的時間和精力用在整合三層年金基礎年金 社會保險年金職業年金的三層年金國民年金提供最基本的保障勞保和公教保提供中層保障而勞隊薪資或公教退服基金提供更上層的補充薪保障"},{"start":3041.389,"end":3061.662,"text":"對台灣而言全教產提出三成年金是很好的方向這三成呢政府應該在政策層面明確各層年金的功能定位在法律上加強協調銜接建立一個永效且永續的退休保障體系謝謝各位好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":3071.888,"end":3090.478,"text":"謝謝我們主席翁昭偉府會同仁還有各位今天與會的夥伴們大家好本席在這邊非常感謝今天參與這個公聽會的學者專家我們來針對公立學校教職員退休撫恤條例的修正方向來進行專業跟實質的一個討論"},{"start":3091.519,"end":3112.634,"text":"本席與本黨眾多的還有眾多黨團的同仁都認為應該停止年金所得替代率的持續削減並建立與物價指數連動的年金調整機制這個是重新校正制度的一個失衡保障退休教職員的老年生活是國家應有的誠信體現"},{"start":3113.795,"end":3132.867,"text":"我國從107年就啟動了年金改革至今6年了但是政府一直強調這個改革是因為要財務永續但實質上卻很不公義的對退休人員造成龐大的衝擊現行的規定所得替代率從109年起就每年下降1.5%10年內已經從最高的75%砍到剩下60%"},{"start":3138.511,"end":3157.986,"text":"最低甚至到30%這是國家自己定下的下修機制也沒有在針對國際經濟情勢的變動作出調整同時107年退休年金跟在職人員薪資調整又脫鉤年金的給付沒有辦法反映經濟的通膨導致退休人員雙重剝奪"},{"start":3159.787,"end":3174.274,"text":"政府主張改革但實際上卻是讓一整個世代在長年信任政府承諾後默默承受物價上漲的苦果物價的變化不抽象是每天餐桌上的飯菜是每個月要繳交的水電費"},{"start":3175.114,"end":3192.378,"text":"是健保自付額的一個看護費行政院主計處自己也公佈高齡家庭的一個消費者物價指數就是認知到高齡者面對實際生活壓力是大於一般家庭的1990年台灣家庭支出結構醫療保險只佔了4.78%到了2024年已經躍升到接近了15%高齡族群所受的衝擊最深"},{"start":3200.76,"end":3213.902,"text":"然而制度卻沒有給予這些退休的公教人員相應的機制來反映生活成本的顯著上升這合理嗎 公平嗎國家符合退休制度所強調的老年生活保障原則嗎"},{"start":3215.492,"end":3227.347,"text":"本席在這邊要好強調我們主張停止替代率每年遞減的副表3條文自113年起不能再使用恢復合理的年金調整機制至少應該要與物價指數同時連動"},{"start":3231.412,"end":3245.047,"text":"並且與現值的軍公教的薪資變動來比較辦理這是根據經濟現狀所做出的制度補正也是對過去改革承諾保障退休生活的檢討與履行"},{"start":3247.557,"end":3263.111,"text":"年金修法的三大目標是第一要阻止文官體系的崩潰第二要爭取公平的待遇第三是要保障退休生活的尊嚴我們要誠實面對一個現象馬政府時期報考公職人員的這個人數高達52萬人現在"},{"start":3267.395,"end":3295.552,"text":"民進黨執政時期只剩下16萬人短短10年內報考人數暴跌超過七成這是大家對制度信心崩解的一個現象年輕人為什麼不願意進入公職因為制度不再值得信任因為國家沒有善待曾經為他服務一輩子的文官與教師如果國家連基本承諾都守不住怎麼吸引優秀的年輕人來投入基層教育行政體系跟公共服務"},{"start":3297.099,"end":3320.78,"text":"政府推動的需要專業文官的支撐過去台灣的整體發展我們都看到公教體系一個協力的成果政府如果不再處理這樣一個議題那麼對於這失信於退休公教人員的制度不僅現有的退休人員生活無以為繼未來大家都不會再投入教職與公教體系"},{"start":3321.701,"end":3346.35,"text":"民進黨政府推動年金改革強調基金永續這個不應該是藉口你的國家信賴保護原則在哪裡怎麼可以說變就變單向的變動這個實在產生了很大的一個衝擊那麼本席必須指出政府對於不同社會群體的態度現在實在存著顯著的雙重標準勞保七年來一直撥補"},{"start":3348.071,"end":3371.786,"text":"並且還公開承諾會支付責任還要動用國庫 也要保住制度但是輪到軍工就要退出基金卻一直強調不能撥補這是你們的能力問題不能恢復調整機制而且一再以基金的歸零連線要做要挾請問政府面對不同群體怎麼態度如此差異的這麼大呢"},{"start":3372.707,"end":3386.847,"text":"這樣子的邏輯讓大家很難接受為什麼勞保可以撥補公教不能撥補台電虧損可以撥補公教不能撥補這種粗暴的制度割裂正是國家破壞信任最基本的原因"},{"start":3387.948,"end":3411.181,"text":"國家應該是所有的人一視同仁而不能以政治利益來區分不能以政治利益來看待施捨與分割我們沒有無意否認那個勞保的必要保障而且支持合理的一個保障但是回歸正確能源政策的公益制度我們也支持但是唯獨退休金"},{"start":3411.821,"end":3440.677,"text":"怎麼會被排除在政府的保障之外呢政府若主張照顧全民請拿出一視同仁的標準停止對軍公教群體的懲罰性改革與偏見操作退休制度不應該是選舉的工具而是憲政責任若政府不改變這種選擇性承擔選擇性照顧的政策態度人民爭取勞動後的退休權益是正當而且合理的"},{"start":3442.157,"end":3469.942,"text":"長期遭受政府冷落與煽動對立若再不停下檢討的腳步來做年改的政策那麼歸零將是人民對政府信任的完全崩解本席再強調修法不是為了推翻改革而是要讓改革不失衡改革必須要動態調整要不然就是政府對特定世代的施加無止境的壓力最後本席要呼籲"},{"start":3471.058,"end":3493.251,"text":"各界應該要正視我們修法的訴求不是停止砍削所得替代率或者是建立即時與物價指數或調薪聯動的調整性機制而是針對現實困境所提出的具體修補方案敬請各位與會的代表與社會大眾來理解我們捍衛退休公教人員權益的立場"},{"start":3494.031,"end":3509.019,"text":"此次修法是為台灣的教育體系與公職人員爭取一個穩定可信的退休保障基礎好 謝謝林慶琴委員好 那接下來我們請郭倍宇理事長發言"},{"start":3519.604,"end":3546.886,"text":"各位委員然後各位教育的先進們大家早安我是擔任縣執新北高工教師會理事長甚至是縣執的國文科老師以及導師的立場來為這場公聽會發聲那為什麼我們必須要站在這裡為我們的權益發聲呢我們不是反改革我們也不是堅守自己的特權其實我們只是希望這場改革不要犧牲我們老師的尊嚴以及往後安定的生活"},{"start":3547.686,"end":3576.041,"text":"那我們現在對現金年金改革的這個政策我們表達非常深刻的憂慮以及不安大家可以看到教師不是數字是一群用生命在教育的人我覺得我們教師不應該被簡化成財政的數字我們在所有的文件上看到的都是滿滿的數字15年軍縫所得替代率財務缺口"},{"start":3576.681,"end":3601.527,"text":"那這些數字的背後大家是不是有看到一個在半夜默默的改週記改作文的老師大家是不是有看到下班以後還在跟家長聯繫的老師大家是不是有看到自掏腰包獎勵學生的老師就像我學生都直接跟我說老師你的導師費都是副成長我說沒錯因為我導師費拿來全部自掏腰包贊助我們學生的比賽獎金"},{"start":3603.154,"end":3630.659,"text":"好 那接下來我覺得這樣子的改革其實對我們第一線的教師來說是從青春奉獻到白髮那其實投入的不是只有時間而是一生的熱情跟理想大家可以看到我們現在旁邊的這張圖片這個之前還甚至翻拍過電影他叫老師你會不會回來這是台灣唯一一個奪過台灣三大教師獎像Super教師獎Power教師獎跟師奪獎的王振中老師"},{"start":3631.699,"end":3656.297,"text":"這位老師他曾經在目前在南投市的中寮鄉雙文國中任教他當初在派到這間學校的時候他決定的他退伍就打算離開這間偏鄉的學校這學校的學生學習意願極為低落資源極差他就覺得我恨不得想要離開接著九二一大地震學生只問他一句老師你會不會回來"},{"start":3657.378,"end":3672.047,"text":"他動搖了他決定要為了這些小孩子努力這本書裡面我印象最深刻的一句話說鄭中老師說透過教育讓沒有資源沒有機會的孩子享有公平的對待進而有翻身的機會"},{"start":3673.468,"end":3701.01,"text":"那這樣子的正宗老師他甚至可以在去年2024年8月發文表示他們的爽文國中目前也面臨了無人報考代理教師的窘境他們的英文有17招數學34招招不到老師的狀況之下他直指第一個關鍵就是教師的整體薪資結構跟不上社會變遷這是非常嚴重的"},{"start":3702.191,"end":3710.17,"text":"所以年金對於現職教授而言不是只有退休金這麼簡單而是社會對於我們教育奉獻的肯定"},{"start":3716.707,"end":3737.202,"text":"接下來我要表達的是我們的改革方向錯誤了我們懲罰奉獻但並未根本解決問題現行的所有的改革政策讓退休老師們的所得驟減三成以上政府常常用破產歸零這樣的威脅危言聳聽那其實行我們教師剝削之勢"},{"start":3738.603,"end":3765.445,"text":"這時候我就會覺得這樣子的震盪其實打擊了我們第一線教師的士氣讓年輕們再也不敢投入教職避之唯恐不及那這本書是最近非常火紅的一本書叫做《當我告別教職》梁芳玉老師是我隔壁班大學同學她當初以台北市教徵榜首之資考上台北市的國中服務她任教了12年之後離開了校園"},{"start":3767.046,"end":3792.967,"text":"裡面這本書提到了教師的困境我印象最深刻的是他提到了有三個困境第一個 教師過勞第二 師道不遵第三 薪資脫節那我們說一句難聽的實話在教育圈當中容納得下放牛吃草容納得下官商勾結 息事寧人怎麼會容不下一顆認真的心呢"},{"start":3794.288,"end":3799.234,"text":"難道我們還要承受更多認真優秀的老師慢慢出走嗎"},{"start":3803.504,"end":3827.111,"text":"改革應該是修正我覺得不是割裂的手段我們提到的問題世代不平衡這個政府跟我們的信任之間的關係是被摧毀的新進教師繳多領少但是未來卻會慢慢的延後退休那第二個改革應該以公平跟信任當作基礎107年開始公教人員的退休金從5年軍風到118年的15年軍風作為計算"},{"start":3830.833,"end":3837.028,"text":"那勞工的退休計算薪資是五年的平均薪資這樣對我們來說真的是合理的公平的嗎"},{"start":3844.997,"end":3865.311,"text":"接下來我要表達的是這是兩則新聞報導大家應該非常的常見教室化漫延全台7.4萬准教師準備放棄教職的原因曝光那紅圈圈圈起來就是最主要的關鍵薪資缺乏吸引力勞動條件不佳甚至是待遇偏低行政工作負荷繁重"},{"start":3866.051,"end":3886.85,"text":"那其實跟很多勞工比起來我們並非高薪的族群但我們承受了非常多的壓力行政壓力 優質化 人才基地記憶教育 公開授課甚至是學習歷程檔案越來越誇張的校事會議老師動輒得救這樣子的壓力對於我們這些年輕人來說只會讓我們想要離開"},{"start":3890.717,"end":3918.48,"text":"接下來在2015年也有教育行政的論文指出退休制度的改革對於教師的工作士氣有正相關的影響所以退休金對我們來說是社會契約的體現是希望我們老師可以沒有後顧之憂穩定教學的後盾國家希望我們付出新春就要有責任保障我們的未來老年是有基本的生活尊嚴的"},{"start":3919.693,"end":3936.947,"text":"在2022年經濟合作的記憶發展組織OECD他們有發展各國調查各國教育概觀針對教學的週數、日數、教學的時數作為調查這三項指標台灣皆高於平均值不知道各位知不知道"},{"start":3937.708,"end":3955.414,"text":"平均週數 教學週數來說平均38週台灣40到42週教學日數平均185天但是台灣有197到200天也就是台灣老師的工時也居高不下這都是非常現實的"},{"start":3962.341,"end":3984.71,"text":"接下來我們必須回到正題我們必須沉痛的呼籲必須要修正公立學校教職員退休之前復續條例的第37條跟67條第37條應該修正為從113年之後的所值替代率113年以後皆不使用第67條應該修正條文必照勞保國保農保以物價核實調整"},{"start":3986.07,"end":4013.941,"text":"那這時候我們就會思考到他不是這樣改革不是重回舊制而是讓制度不會以犧牲教育者為代價又可以確保財政是穩定的並且破除那些不合理的謠言這張兩張照片分別是本校我們頒發20年30年資深優良教室的講座跟獎狀所以這些講座只是上級官員們對於老師尊重的一個表象嗎"},{"start":4015.781,"end":4029.868,"text":"下面這張照片是我們學校特教科的導師跟班上同學們教師姐的合照這樣子的愛教育陪伴不值得擁有安穩的退休生活嗎請各位在座思考"},{"start":4038.208,"end":4052.028,"text":"接下來教育的改革不應該從背棄老師開始如果我們的雇主也就是政府連照顧老師的承諾都做不到我們要怎麼去說服年輕人說我們的努力是會有回報的"},{"start":4053.427,"end":4077.941,"text":"我們在課堂外除了備課之外還要為未來擔心受怕教師的退休就會被人民視為負擔這樣孩子們看到的是一個非常害怕的老師而不是尊敬的典範那我們知道改革應該是修復這樣子的信任關係而不是摧毀教育才是一個文明國家最有效益最長遠的投資"},{"start":4084.932,"end":4107.064,"text":"接下來最後我們做一個收尾這是反對倉促跟失衡的改革第二個 請重新檢討公立學校教職員退休資金撫恤條例的第37跟第67條這張照片是今年度的信談分方獎的合照大家可以看看上面有多少資深的老師在為這個校育現場做服務"},{"start":4108.144,"end":4130.201,"text":"那我們希望今天的公聽會不會再把這個議題重重的提起卻是輕輕的放下改革不是撕裂的代名詞而是讓老師安心的教學社會恢復信任的起點我的報告到此 謝謝大家好 謝謝謝謝郭理事長那麼接下來我們請"},{"start":4137.601,"end":4153.917,"text":"接下來我們請羅德水主任是有請羅主任"},{"start":4172.342,"end":4183.011,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進我今天報告的主題有兩個第一個是旅行撥補承諾確保基金永續第二個是關於"},{"start":4184.451,"end":4188.841,"text":"目前教師荒 教師年齡結構逐漸老化的狀況應該要鬆綁退休門檻我想今天討論的主題"},{"start":4194.958,"end":4221.598,"text":"不管是替代率或是怎麼調整政府要怎麼撥補 年改導致教師的失之老化這些問題的背後其實就是這三個凸顯這三個很核心的大家要討論的點第一個 就政府大家都講政府也自己講要負最後之負保證責任但是要怎麼履行第二個是大家最關心的各個世代都關心的基金永續怎麼確保"},{"start":4222.699,"end":4245.004,"text":"第三個現在問題這麼多我們的國會我們的行政部門怎麼樣去修法然後回應教育現場的需求我想還是要回顧一下從年改以來現在那麼多年出現了一些問題我簡單把它歸納跟今天有關的主要有四個我想第一個就是選擇性改革事實上"},{"start":4246.499,"end":4259.054,"text":"公教退府之所以要改革主要的原因就是講他的財務有問題出現問題又巨額潛藏負債但大家都知道按照最新的精算勞保的潛藏負債已經突破13兆"},{"start":4261.656,"end":4284.484,"text":"那一開始說改革的時候其實是講軍公教勞要接續改革但是改到軍公教就停止而且還說對勞保是撥補就是改革那如果勞保是撥補就是改革公教退補應該就是比照辦理不然就是選擇性改革第二個是很明顯的雙重標準我想有一筆叫做年資補償金這一個項目"},{"start":4287.845,"end":4314.897,"text":"這一個補償金其實是在民國八十四年八十五年退府救治由國家恩己改成退府基金制度的時候立法院通過的一個補償措施這個制度已經入法而且跟退府基金完全無關但年改以後出現了很明顯的雙重標準就是軍人繼續保留但是公教人員卻刪除很明顯的雙重標準第三個是制度問亂"},{"start":4316.434,"end":4341.927,"text":"一二新制上路以後因為新進人員以後的退休金改成個人帳戶制他的退休金理論上會大幅減少所以政府的規劃就是讓這些人可以領公保年金所以就出現很荒謬的狀況就是舊的人沒有辦法領公保年金低成的基礎年金沒有辦法領年金反而"},{"start":4342.947,"end":4368.835,"text":"是要領一次給付我們的公保作為第一層的社會保險目前竟然有五種費率五種給付方式這個就是越改越亂第四個就是嚴重的影響施肢新陳代謝我等一下會有具體的數字給各位看我們為什麼認為逐額撥補是當務之急這個年改以後有建立了政府的監控機制指標這個是"},{"start":4370.876,"end":4393.541,"text":"考試院跟行政院一起建立的指標第一項有六點第一項就是要尊重退補基金的財務定期精算結果我想這個是所有退休金的核心的理念就是你要尊重精算要尊重統計要科學管理各位看一下這是第八次已經三年前的精算很明顯我們可以看到"},{"start":4394.67,"end":4401.337,"text":"按照這個精算如果用10年來撥補公務能源10年要撥補1940億20年反而要撥補2400億這個就是我們一直在講的政府為什麼選擇"},{"start":4410.446,"end":4430.657,"text":"撥補比較多的20年方案而不選擇撥補相對少的10年方案公教人員這兩筆一起加起來如果選擇20年會比10年多出710億各位可以記得這個數字因為第九次精算就出來了剛出來的第九次精算"},{"start":4431.457,"end":4444.509,"text":"如果這個就是拖延撥補的代價就是動越來越大就是過去3年第8次精算到第9次精算我們可以看到如果分10年撥補第9次精算公教人員合起來要3370億但是分20年這個數字變成4120億"},{"start":4450.094,"end":4468.625,"text":"比第八次精算還在增加 還在惡化這個數字是 差距是750億所以我們真的沒有辦法理解請朝委委員 這個應該不分黨團連執政黨的委員都應該好好的去問一下行政院 考試院到底你為什麼不選擇20年然後偏偏選擇20年"},{"start":4472.347,"end":4489.599,"text":"分20年要多出750億然後可能還沒有撥補完這個基金又接近破產為什麼不10年趕快把它撥補那剛才幾位先進也有講到我們有看到數字勞保這幾年的撥補如果加今年邊明年的預算加下去應該是會突破5000億"},{"start":4492.068,"end":4519.143,"text":"其實這五千億如果拿來撥補退補基金這個新制上路的缺口已經擬平了就已經擬平了但是我們竟然要花十年都還沒辦法接受要選擇二十年我覺得政府欠人民一個說法為什麼選擇一個最差的方案那為什麼公教人員不信任政府因為剛才我講這些數字不管是十年二十年其實他只是能夠延後用慶年度三到四年"},{"start":4520.225,"end":4527.396,"text":"真正的大動還有三兆如果要維持50年不用慶各要撥補每年要撥補這麼多錢如果你"},{"start":4531.361,"end":4559.4,"text":"連這個新制上路這個短短的少少的幾千例你都不願意撥補未來這三兆到底要怎麼撥補法所以公教人員一般人民越來越不信任政府這個就是因為政府的實際作為讓人家不信任接下來我們講一下中小學教師的生態現在就是大概就是這樣的狀況有證老師不入場教師年齡結構失衡平均年齡上升我給各位看多可怕的數字這些數字都是教育部上面的數字"},{"start":4560.863,"end":4585.657,"text":"可以看一下你看這個是國小專任教師各位看一下藍色的那一條線就是50歲以上的人數持續的升高年改以後這個擴大越來越嚴重就是各位可以看一下30歲以下的國小老師現在不到10%但是50歲以上的已經有35%"},{"start":4587.74,"end":4607.096,"text":"這個是國中一模一樣的走向在104年死亡交叉年改106 107上路更擴大這個年齡的惡化各位可以看一下現在全台灣的公立國中的專任老師30歲以下的只有不到7%但是50歲以上的超過30%"},{"start":4609.419,"end":4624.23,"text":"這個是很明顯的失之新陳代謝的惡化這是高中老師一模一樣各位看一下不到10%然後50歲以上的一樣超過30幾%我想這個數字不改善我們的教育品質不可能進步"},{"start":4625.07,"end":4647.508,"text":"那为什么会出现这个状况我觉得很主要的原因就有几个第一个就是一二新制上路以后因为改成确定个人的账户制变成确定提拨制从确定给付改成确定提拨所以了解状况的公教人员他不想进场因为他的未来是一个不确定的未来那个退休金根本没办法算"},{"start":4648.368,"end":4676.903,"text":"教育部之前有算說以後可以領多少錢那個都是騙不懂的人因為你必須有前提才能知道未來能夠領多少錢否則根本不知道30年後能夠領多少錢完全不知道所以政府才立法院包括行政部門才讓這些人有公保年金其實是一個交換我覺得這是一個很大的原因第二個就是現場的狀況太不友善所以讓老師不敢進場"},{"start":4678.383,"end":4692.659,"text":"那这个会持续的恶化那我两个建议我想第一个政府常常会讲说最后知不责任最后知不责任但是这句话如果没有实际的拨补它就是口号就是我们刚才讲的"},{"start":4693.4,"end":4712.95,"text":"這一個很明確的指標就是你要用十年或是用二十年我們當然要求可以最好是可以比照勞保三四年內趕快把它撥補完畢就是在新制的缺口的部分最差最差也應該按照十年來撥補但是現在是選擇二十年已經連續三年短編"},{"start":4714.171,"end":4741.277,"text":"現在麻煩是行政院的預算送到立法院立法院委員 朝委黨團就算認同我們的主張也不能增加預算所以一年拖過一年已經連續三年短編大家可以看到第八次第九次的精算這個數字不斷地惡化所以第一個重點就是一定要趕快完成新制上路以後的這個短編的撥補第二個就是取消58歲的退休門檻"},{"start":4743.792,"end":4765.875,"text":"目前隨著這個退休年資的那個月退休門檻逐年的延後未來幾年會到58歲才能退休這個數字一定會讓我們剛才講的那一個年齡的老化會更加的嚴重我們認為年金改革已經砍了老師的"},{"start":4766.676,"end":4778.481,"text":"退休金了老師他會做好規劃如果有人願意提早退你就讓他提早退不用把所有人都綁到58歲這樣可以釋出一些缺額讓薪資可以有新陳代謝謝謝好謝謝羅主任的發言那接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":4801.021,"end":4824.901,"text":"好 各位先敬大家早安也謝謝主席安排今天這個公聽會我想今天現場一定會有許多不同的聲音我們希望在理性討論的前提之下我們把每一個人所在意的事情拿起來一起看那第一個我想要說其實在年金改革這個議題上其實從2013年馬英九前總統在任內的時候我要再次強調是在他任內的時候他就已經說"},{"start":4825.862,"end":4852.698,"text":"他說不得不承認這20年來人口加速高齡化生育率急速降低會出現繳的少退的早領的多而因為這三個原因會產生三大問題就是經費不足行業不平世代不均我想在場的人應該就此時此刻從2013年回過來看此時的2025年大家一定非常游刃同感因此他認為這些問題就會造成"},{"start":4854.739,"end":4880.979,"text":"整體國家財政的負擔因此他說他希望不要把問題留給下一任總統就算再困難年金改革也要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革此時此刻我不知道馬英九總統還記不記得他說的話但是我很希望在野黨的委員回過頭去看去想一想為什麼馬英九前總統在當時他的任內他說這樣的話第二個"},{"start":4881.94,"end":4906.894,"text":"到了蔡英文總統她說有些改革是現在不做以後會後悔可是關於年金是現在不做馬上就會後悔她認為這不是針對個人的問題而是整體制度的問題是歷史的包袱年金改革是希望讓所有高齡者得到足夠的社會安全保障因此在相關的改革方案通過之後我們等一下來看相關數字"},{"start":4908.235,"end":4928.054,"text":"但是另外一個此時此刻也是在野黨的黨主席黃國昌他在2015年的時候他是時代力量的主席他說2015年他在電視上公開說包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年要吃掉政府六千多億的預算十分驚人是國家的財政負擔是社會"},{"start":4928.575,"end":4951.156,"text":"不公平世代不正義的幫兇他認為不合理的年金制度是下一代的問題嗎不是這一代馬上要面對的災難他最後提醒大家我們都在同一條船上要共同努力我很少時候會同意黃國昌的話但是2015年的黃國昌當時說的話我非常的認同當然他現在可能已經忘記他自己說過的話"},{"start":4952.057,"end":4975.584,"text":"我之所以花這麼多時間引用了不同黨派的領導者所說的話是想要回應今天的年金改革我們現在面對的困境現在的修法版本當中主要是在野黨的委員所提出來的第一個停止逐年下降所得替代率第二個年金要隨著消費物價指數調整但是這個調整非常的荒謬竟然是只會加不會減"},{"start":4976.784,"end":4997.029,"text":"我想問這樣子合理公平了嗎目前我們看到相關數字有5%的退休教職員實領退休所得超過5萬元平均每個月支領的金額是5.8元高於國人的平均月薪4.64我想要問這對於當前年輕世代不做事比做事領得多不符合世代正義但是我必須也要認同所有剛剛現場的老師們"},{"start":4999.349,"end":5022.037,"text":"前輩們你們所提出在現場教師荒的困境在現場教育工作人員的困境剛剛還有一位老師提到特教老師的困境這些我自己在教育委員會我從來沒有放棄過問政監督的責任每一題我們都用力的質詢甚至每一個會期在立法院正式召開大規模的座談會也只有我們辦公室在做這個事情所以我要呼籲"},{"start":5022.777,"end":5042.287,"text":"所有現場老師的困境應該不會只有藉由年金改革可以做到教育部在此時此刻有更多在教育政策上可以做的事情我想這是每一個委員都不要逃避的責任而我們當然也沒有逃避因此面對年金改革我今天之所以願意站在這裡發言我當然知道會受到很多現場老師的譴責可是我也要說"},{"start":5043.047,"end":5069.86,"text":"年金改革不必然是百分之百可以解決剛剛所有老師先進所提到教育現場的困境第二個如果按照現在修法國民黨的委員提案的版本我認為退服基金會提早三到四年用慶剛剛有一個老師有提到十年撥普跟二十年撥普確實這個也是很多本黨的委員甚至有張開記者會這個我們都沒有否認因此我們當然要求行政院要有相關的說法這件事情我們從來也沒有退縮我們沒有推脫"},{"start":5071.761,"end":5095.543,"text":"再來我要想制度的修正這件事情如果在此時此刻用國民黨的委員版本通過我們到底還會遇到哪些問題而且剛剛有一個老師提到關於隨著物價指數調整這個事情其實現在的版本已經有了不是修法版本而是現有的版本已經有了但是卻被曲解成沒有隨著調整甚至我還有看到在黨委員的版本要隨著現行老師"},{"start":5096.824,"end":5112.493,"text":"的薪資去做調整也就是雙軌並進而這個會造成多大的財政的困境我想所有在野黨委員自己提了一定非常清楚但是他們卻不告訴國人也不告訴現在還在場服務的老師們公立學校的教職員如果用這個雙軌並進會產生什麼困境跟困難"},{"start":5115.214,"end":5140.286,"text":"修法不可以這樣做不可以只照顧到眼前你認為跟你政治上是互通的一個族群而要顧及到所有世代正義公平正義這件事情還有所有現場剛剛進入公立學校教職員這些人如何看待現在在黨委員修法的版本我也非常的好奇我想講了這麼多我最後謝謝主席我再三十秒我要用馬英九前總統的話做今天的總結"},{"start":5141.687,"end":5160.955,"text":"在這條改革的道路上單靠政府是不夠的因為年金制度本來就是一個自助跟互助的制度馬英九前總統一再強調不只是你的年金或者是我的年金而是我們的年金也是我們子孫的年金更是不能倒也不可以倒的年金"},{"start":5161.835,"end":5179.281,"text":"也許未來的年金大家領到的會比現在略少但可以讓大家放心的領三十年讓我們的子孫也能夠領得到我要拜託在野黨的委員仔細思考慎重的思考這不是你跟我而是我們我們的子孫 以上謝謝好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請葉崇洋教授發言"},{"start":5206.595,"end":5214.724,"text":"主席好還有與會的各位參與者大家好我是東吳大學社會學系的葉崇洋"},{"start":5217.291,"end":5236.583,"text":"今天邀請我來非常高興可以來這邊就是來發表自己的一些意見啦對於年改的一些意見那我對於我仔細的在這幾天我仔細的看了這些的資料然後對於這些法案有比較深入的一些了解之後我基本上我"},{"start":5237.443,"end":5264.518,"text":"對於整個年金改革的意見大概從2017年那時候我就已經有寫過相關的一些文章或者是大概那個意見到現在我的立場大概都沒有什麼樣的改變基本上我都是要認為要有一個整體性的思考去針對台灣年金改革那我們現在台灣年金改革或者是年金體系裡面它面臨四個大問題"},{"start":5265.999,"end":5281.254,"text":"第一個就是不公平的問題那行業不均的問題剛才就是有委員也有提到這個問題然後剛才也有引用像馬英九前總統提出來的行業不均的問題那我們可以看到其實"},{"start":5282.735,"end":5306.385,"text":"現在目前公教退府剛才有提到就是平均大概是領五萬八千塊左右然後他可能還會再加上其他的那勞工的部分你即便是勞保他的平均的可以領到的錢大概是不到兩萬塊就是一萬八到一萬九左右而已那另外就是他可以再加上勞退可能是五六千塊那頂多就是兩萬五千塊實際上"},{"start":5307.665,"end":5315.25,"text":"像我父母基本上一個是領一次退的一次一個是領那個月退的那他領到的錢大概就是一萬"},{"start":5316.916,"end":5343.289,"text":"上下而已所以其實領的來講是相對來講是比較少的農民大概現在目前大概是8000多塊國民年金現在可以領的150萬人大概就是4000塊左右而勞工啊其中有差不多18萬的人那基本上是領不到1萬塊的所以這個行業不均的情況其實是非常嚴重的那這個就會影響到另外一個問題就是財務上的一個問題啦"},{"start":5344.609,"end":5370.875,"text":"我們可以知道就是年金改革它其實很重要都是在解決財務上的問題尤其是我們的年金的設計大部分都是譬如說公教退府或者是勞保它其實都是用了Pay as you go隨收隨付制的制度來做財務的主要的設計所以勞保的部分其實我們在2025年主計處就已經有說到了它其實已經潛藏負債已經高達13.5兆這個是非常高的"},{"start":5373.476,"end":5391.067,"text":"那還有國民研經 農民勞農津貼然後還有加上公教退輔那你不算勞退或是現在已經執行的就是公教新制公教退輔的新制因為都是個人帳戶制還有就是其他的個人帳戶制的話那其實"},{"start":5392.888,"end":5412.054,"text":"單純社會保險制的部分或者是Pay as you go的部分那其實對於目前的台灣的財政來講是一個非常重的負擔那我在這邊可能要跟因為我一直在上課上有關年金的課那我一直在跟同學在強調一件事情"},{"start":5413.362,"end":5425.007,"text":"我們Pairs You Go的年金財務的設計核心是繳費的年金世代只要我們不願意繳費你這個國家的年金就撐不下去"},{"start":5426.311,"end":5446.722,"text":"因為是我們付錢給那些已退休的人所以剛才有提到像撥補這件事情還有投資這件事情我跟大家先科普一件事情投資你要依賴投資報酬率來解決財務問題所有的國家都告訴我們這是不可能的"},{"start":5447.422,"end":5468.453,"text":"這是在學術上已經認證的事情如果需要我可以給你們任何的證據這是不可能存在的因為人口老化的速度已經遠超過我們的想像了所以在這種情況底下你要依賴投資是完全不可能去解決年金財務的問題而且如果你是依賴撥補的話"},{"start":5470.855,"end":5493.249,"text":"撥補本來的公教退府它是由僱主跟勞工一起去提撥這個錢在這個情況底下僱主就是政府勞工就是教師或是公教人員撥補的情況底下就會變成是它是用稅收來撥補會變成是我要幫你們撥補可是我又不用"},{"start":5494.744,"end":5517.636,"text":"我付的稅為什麼要幫你們撥補為什麼不花來解決少子化的問題如果你的少子化的問題可以解決的話那財政的問題才可以解決如果你少子化的問題沒有辦法解決財政的問題就永遠會存在那邊尤其當你的年金的設計的時候是Pay as you go的時候那就不可能解決這件事情"},{"start":5518.635,"end":5534.788,"text":"而第三點我們現在除了財務的問題它會有世代不均的問題之外第三個它可能會涉及到延退提早退出勞動市場提早退休那這個會有三點第一個就是"},{"start":5537.106,"end":5563.069,"text":"這個你在說就是人口結構的老化就是教師人靈結構的老化是他有可能很多的原因不單純只是因為老老師不退休或者是怎麼樣他有可能是人口老化的因素而且有可能是因為少子化的因素啊如果你少子化沒有解決誰會想要進去當老師因為我隨時有可能會因為學校關掉就被裁掉或者是被失業或者是被"},{"start":5564.557,"end":5582.778,"text":"流放到某個地方去或是被整病嘛所以我也不希望這樣我既然看得到少子化是這樣的情況底下我為什麼還要進入會有可能會面臨少子化問題的行業呢譬如說教師像大學老師其實也是一樣啊"},{"start":5583.439,"end":5609.846,"text":"大學老師他其實面臨的我們面臨的東西其實是類似的啊招生問題啊2028第一波的少子化的海嘯就要來了而且在過去幾年我現在46歲然後我還要待如果沒有延退的話大概就是還要待19年20年也就是說我一定會面臨到疫情那一波或者是甚至這一兩年這一波也就18年後他要念大學的時候他那個人口就只有"},{"start":5610.706,"end":5626.315,"text":"剩下11萬左右而已甚至更低那這樣情況底下誰會想要進入教育產業教育產業受到少子化的影響其實是非常重的而且第二個問題就是"},{"start":5627.645,"end":5652.447,"text":"我們在討論提早退休或者是人齡結構老化的情況底下其實有另外一個問題其實非常我覺得是非常重要的比如說不適任的教師或是公務員你要不要讓你的公務員或是教師有一個自由競爭的機制就是說我們現在大學老師基本上都已經取消掉紀念條款也就是說你只要"},{"start":5653.851,"end":5668.476,"text":"可以進入大學任教的話他是專任的話你就可以當助理教授當一輩子即便他教學不好即便他研究不好服務不好我們還是不能排除他因為非常困難而且在法律上"},{"start":5669.895,"end":5688.688,"text":"的規範或者是在法院上判決上都是對學校不利的那你不能開除他他就只能一直到當一輩子的助理教授那我不是任又不好我們也不能對他怎麼樣子而且在這種情況底下你在聘任老師大學在聘任老師也不見得那麼公正"},{"start":5689.508,"end":5710.563,"text":"也搞不好都有內定的情況所以有些人很厲害的人或是很適合的人他想要進來他也進不來所以這種情況不解決你的人靈結構必定會老化而且第二個是你投入人靈結構老化它不只是單純年金的問題它有可能是因為勞動市場環境"},{"start":5713.383,"end":5727.483,"text":"現在要告訴我說我年金幫你增加你保證一方面你保證領得到嗎二方面是我這個環境會想要進去嗎對不對所以在這種情況底下你工時高我現在錢"},{"start":5729.105,"end":5743.612,"text":"前天禮拜二的時候去做體檢然後我們體檢有一個現在有出身體健康之後還有一個心理健康的然後我的工作時數就是加班每週加班多少我把它填100個小時"},{"start":5745.29,"end":5761.562,"text":"那個每個月 每個月加班多少我填100個小時那個人一直都不相信我加班還有超過100小時我在家也都還是在繼續工作 念書 寫東西所以在這種情況底下工資高而且我們薪資低以前有一個香港的老師跟我講"},{"start":5762.978,"end":5787.686,"text":"他扣掉他的校勤費 請兩個保姆的錢然後加上一些生活開銷他每個月存下來的錢都還是我的兩倍我是教授 所以他還是我的兩倍那你就知道他多高了所以我其實要提出來最後一個問題就是台灣社會福利或者是社會政策的問題我們常常是腳痛醫腳然後頭痛也醫腳所以我們都沒有辦法去對症下藥"},{"start":5793.817,"end":5816.156,"text":"就算對證了他也不見得能夠解決問題所以我覺得我以前寫過一篇文章叫做笨蛋問題在制度所以那篇文章被在2017年寫的所以你們可以稍微去看一下那我明年有發表一本書叫做葬送的福利年金那是有關台灣年金改革的如果大家有興趣可以去買來看謝謝大家"},{"start":5818.755,"end":5824.22,"text":"好 謝謝葉教授那接下來我們請董寶成教授發言好"},{"start":5843.181,"end":5867.723,"text":"主席還有各位立法委員還有各位學術專家還有各位列席的機關代表八年以前軍公教司法院大法官受理這個四限改革軍公教七八二 七八三七八四的時候老師有在現場我有代表教育人員在現場一直呼籲"},{"start":5868.992,"end":5895.547,"text":"這個年輕改革呢會對教育會有很大的傷害剛剛有些委員還在提馬英九的時代現在都是八年以後了還在提這個實在是覺得時空逆轉不一樣首先呢我必須要感謝今天這個議題看起來好像是我們在談錢其實我們是談制度制度不改革"},{"start":5897.498,"end":5925.209,"text":"其中最重要的就是要老師要安心 要安養但是呢 今天我們可以在座的可以看到我們列席的長官教育部常務次長 朱俊璋出來可是實際上管退伏基金的卻是一個師長我在政府機關工作過 這代表什麼這些退伏基金的首長他本身也是學者出身他難道不知道學校的現場現況嗎"},{"start":5928.001,"end":5950.764,"text":"所以我覺得因為退伏基金造成的問題造成的後遺症所以才有今天教育很多地方沒辦法改那才是源頭那才是根所以今天我可以說不能夠單單認為我們是為了錢而來那是抹殺我們教育者抹殺你們的老師"},{"start":5952.639,"end":5974.58,"text":"首先呢窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子大家都知道可是這個孩子啊是全民的孩子不是某一個政黨的孩子當初呢軍公教呢就是要砍要砍誰啊因為軍公教不是什麼支持民進黨的這些人否則的話為什麼年輕改革為什麼不繼續把勞工也改啊"},{"start":5975.785,"end":5996.472,"text":"所以這個環境是沒有道理所以呢窮不能窮教育 苦不能恐孩子所有的人都會這樣講可是這個孩子是台灣的孩子不是在野黨的孩子回去問問看你們的孩子問問你們學校的孩子的孫子整個的教育環境現在是多麼的險峻讓老師要安心我的書面資料在59頁"},{"start":6005.044,"end":6011.681,"text":"59月 60月 61月因為我們可以知道通膨下的現實環境"},{"start":6013.956,"end":6042.128,"text":"我們雖然有寫37條說逐年砍然後有67條說政府要隨時來隨著物價調整可是在這裡面還要參考國家經濟的環境政府還有財政財富財政退伏基金的準備率雖然有這個規定可是從來到現在從來沒有調整相對於"},{"start":6043.862,"end":6059.749,"text":"國民年金法老年農民福利經推出戰刑條例這個部分來講他們卻沒有這個規定所以我覺得對於老師不是要特別優待老師是我們培養"},{"start":6061.397,"end":6084.945,"text":"台灣人才非常重要的一個源頭 一個根本那聯改的後遺症大家也很清楚我曾經擔任在憲法法庭113年憲判制有關代理教師的問題在憲判制第七號大法官的解釋指出說少子化與年金改革造成了教師延退"},{"start":6085.874,"end":6100.879,"text":"於呢 原額控管使學校大量依賴代理老師甚至民營學校也沒有辦法找到老師甚至呢因此我們的資深老師都不願意退因為一退之後呢就陷入到那個什麼每年最砍1.5所以呢 我覺得呢這個我們看起來是形式平等實際上來講呢是對於反而使教育的品質與學習權啊一再要受損我們要讓老師啊"},{"start":6115.089,"end":6130.763,"text":"奉獻不白惠那就需要給他一個安心退心的隨奉特別是各位我們公務人員我們在座的公務人員今天為什麼要當市長為什麼要當次長為什麼要當科長因為有一個理論就叫做什麼"},{"start":6132.106,"end":6158.652,"text":"職位合理照顾原则今天如果你在什么职位退休你就应该要什么相对的比例在你的退休金的照顾应该要符合比例原则否则谁愿意担任这个行政责任今天在场的我想每一个人愿意当师长都向贡献心力这个应该要符合职位合理照顾原则可是呢我们的政府接触说你们的钱比劳工多了现在什么时代啊"},{"start":6159.861,"end":6188.569,"text":"因為這樣子才可以才是真正的所謂的憲法所保障的退休金的什麼憲法制度性的保障特別是我們現在這個法不但修理我也修理你們在座的各位公務員我們說信賴保護今天我們要政府要人民守法 守份政府要我們公務員中心依法行政尊重憲法忠誠"},{"start":6190.336,"end":6215.444,"text":"好啊 是的 我們應該這樣做可是我們因此我們相信政府會守法結果呢 政府不但不守法 反而說因為快破產了所以呢你們要什麼 共體時間政府讓人民不信賴人民怎麼會信賴政府呢所以今天在座的各位"},{"start":6216.616,"end":6235.519,"text":"我特別要肯定教育部因為教育部他知道這些問題很多也會回到年金改革所以他沒有辦法所以一個源頭在這裡我們在座的現任公務員也都是受害者你們繼續也要砍所以不要退因為你們一退就開始砍了"},{"start":6238.877,"end":6263.978,"text":"那我們為什麼要讓老師呢要有這個心情呢因為我們最主要要有這個合理的待遇呢因為他安心安退才能夠他的專業自主他的尊嚴與熱情沒有這個尊嚴與熱情我們教育怎麼會永續呢我們要留住熱情好的老師啊所以我是覺得呢而且當初啊"},{"start":6265.445,"end":6292.649,"text":"當初考試院提的版本是八折然後五年砍1.5可是到了立法院那個時候我還在政府官府服務結果是段宜康議員一口氣就叫架怎麼有這樣立法的粗糙呢你還回去問問獨立機關的考試院結果段宜康現在溜了剩下攤子誰收"},{"start":6294.987,"end":6321.059,"text":"所以我覺得立法不能那麼粗糙不能夠當初考試院他們經過這麼多的專家學者人家他是主管機關結果到立法院確實由一個委員現場的情緒發言砍成這樣子段委員你怎麼對得起台灣的這一代未來一代我們的軍公教軍公教是國家的中堅力量"},{"start":6323.576,"end":6352.506,"text":"連金公教都不相信政府你們怎麼期待我們公務員呢 我們的老師呢所以呢 因此呢 要尊嚴 要永續我們必須要給老師一定的安心安退各位 年金破產 大家已經講了很多了說會破產 破個鬼多年來真的破產 我們早就"},{"start":6354.179,"end":6378.599,"text":"領不起薪水啦 不要嘛 這只是一個基金 你沒有經營好所以呢 尊重老師 不要把 老師不要把工人當笨蛋不要把軍人當笨蛋 這什麼叫年輕破產呢所以把老師 所以我們應該要教育的品質還有特別現在為什麼很多人都不願意去什麼"},{"start":6380.259,"end":6403.037,"text":"在學校教書現在還有一個教師會議在我的文章裡面講我們的教師會議啊校師會議啊我認為根本就是一個把什麼把學校老師當作小小班當作變態大部分老師啊都是為什麼學生來投入教育的所以我現在待會要趕回去什麼教學因為我十點鐘有課所以謝謝那個這個李小蘭女士長來讓我來這個先講話"},{"start":6406.764,"end":6424.183,"text":"所以我可以告訴各位 台灣有青天 台灣有復國神山因為神山後面有我們這群的軍工教所以拜託各位 特別我剛剛看這個立法委員有幾個就出去了我的良心 這孩子不是國民黨的孩子也不是民眾黨的孩子 是大家的孩子所以跟各位報告"},{"start":6432.912,"end":6461.612,"text":"我這邊也特別畫一張牌 要做一個大的庭崁年經啊 常常說走回頭路怎麼是走回頭路呢我要只是庭崁 我已經被崁到現在了我再一再崁下去我連什麼連那個什麼 包大人都買不起什麼叫包大人 老人尿片啊所以庭崁公教年經 它是庭崁然後回復到它應該有的"},{"start":6463.047,"end":6492.31,"text":"給他制度否則的話 各位呢不是回頭是岸苦海無邊我們現在教師 公務員多苦啊你不要只看到有些公務員有些小老師現在還去玩他是什麼他是應有的尊嚴啊所以呢 我覺得呢不是走回頭路而是回頭是岸因為苦海已經無邊了謝謝大家好 謝謝董教授"},{"start":6493.223,"end":6515.825,"text":"那麼接下來我們因為陸陸續續又有幾位專家學者到場所以我這邊先再介紹那首先先介紹黃景堂教授第二位是賴中強律師台灣經濟民主聯合智庫然後第三位是台北商業大學財稅系的黃耀輝教授"},{"start":6517.751,"end":6529.283,"text":"那第四位是清大動力機械工程學系的賀承宏教授也是前清大校長好請坐謝謝那接下來我們請張志倫委員發言好謝謝主席各位與會的專家各位委員各位朋友大家好"},{"start":6540.939,"end":6549.062,"text":"自2017年年金改革以來公教人員退休所得替代率每年遞減1.5%到2029年就是15年"},{"start":6555.388,"end":6560.73,"text":"這個將降至6成以下這8年間消費者物價指數CPI累積上漲約8%但公教年金僅於111年象徵性的調整2%實質購買率這樣子加起來將會少將近5成"},{"start":6574.893,"end":6596.393,"text":"許多退休人員面對醫療照護生活成本高漲陷入越老越窮的困境這不僅是數字問題而是尊嚴與信任的問題所以本席要強調退休金是勞動報酬的延遲給付不應該淪為政治角力下的犧牲品"},{"start":6597.034,"end":6624.946,"text":"老保年金早有明确法定机制在CPI涨幅达50%给付必须随之调整反观教职的退府制度却缺乏自动联动机制一切仍取决于政府年度财政与政治考量欠缺可预期性以及稳定性这样的双重标准无法说服基层的教师也削弱"},{"start":6625.566,"end":6649.404,"text":"青年投入教职的意愿教征的报考人数从2015年起便跌破4万大关逐年往下降去年只剩下3万多人也反映出信任流失的结果我们支持合理的改革但反对将改革变成长期削减的代名词本期此次的修法"},{"start":6650.445,"end":6672.88,"text":"並非要恢復舊制而是要停止所得替代率的逐年遞減並建立比照勞保CPI的調整機制讓制度以剩時對接確保退休所得不被通膨侵蝕同時要求政府應該提高調撥的比例不能讓基金的缺口"},{"start":6673.76,"end":6694.689,"text":"成為削減年金的藉口更重要的是今天這場爭議的核心不僅是年金數字的高低而是政府與公教之間的信任的修復107年改革以後退休公教實質所得大幅縮水基金收益穩定"},{"start":6696.13,"end":6723.268,"text":"税收年年超增政府却持续调降所得替代率让基层公教感觉被背叛今年的退休公教就是明日再执公教的禁止如果政府可以任意改变承诺未来年轻的公教人员还敢相信我们的制度吗因此我们主张的停砍基金不是走回头路而是让制度回归正轨"},{"start":6723.928,"end":6751.067,"text":"停止定減電力物價聯動機制並依法逐額撥補是最基本的誠信要求唯有讓奉獻國家的公教人員在退休後能夠能有安穩有尊嚴的生活國家的行政體系與社會信任才能真正穩固最後還是要非常感謝今天所有到場的老師以及教授們大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":6754.178,"end":6759.674,"text":"好 謝謝張委員那接下來我們請林弘洋教授發言 謝謝"},{"start":6765.369,"end":6789.103,"text":"主席以及各位在場的委員還有各位夥伴大家好非常感謝有這個機會就是受邀來這邊談這個議題因為我過去在大概20幾年間其實主要做的都是跟年金制度設計有關的這個研究所以在這邊的話其實我嘗試就提出一些可能更深遠的一些思考因為"},{"start":6790.063,"end":6801.629,"text":"其實過去這幾年受邀到立法院來參加這個公聽會其實我會認為我們現在一直以來討論的這個年金改革議題比較核心的都沒有"},{"start":6802.978,"end":6816.713,"text":"就是都沒有觸及啦坦白說所以坦白說我這個第一頁這個內容其實我一直以來都就是這幾年之間其實沒有太大的修正因為台灣其實是走所謂的B4麥的年金體系也就是說個別的這個職業的這個系統是分立的"},{"start":6821.417,"end":6849.008,"text":"過去的這個概念的話會比較強調這個相同職業身分別之間的團結那再來的話過去的這個比較高的所得替代率它主要是因為過往的這個家庭的這個怎麼講的這個基礎是以這個主要所得者男性主要所得者在外工作所以說他需要有比較高的這個在退休之後有比較高的所得替代率來涵蓋他家中的這個依附者經濟依附者"},{"start":6849.768,"end":6877.33,"text":"所以這個會是在1880年代的時候還蠻重要的一個時空環境但其實到現在來說的話其實時空環境是改變了非常多特別是像女性家中的原先的經濟衣服者她也不斷地進入到勞動市場其實每一個人依著他的薪資都有他的退休金在所以目前世界各國的改革的趨勢它其實是不斷地在調降他的所得替代率"},{"start":6878.413,"end":6899.488,"text":"那我們現在我們年金保險體系的挑戰其實剛剛其實各位先進有談到了就各種的這個可能結構上的這個調整的這個思考以及它背後的這些邏輯等等的其實當然就不拖這些啦像少子女化然後平均餘命延長然後所造成的這一個人口結構改革啦所以說其實目前看到的這一個"},{"start":6901.89,"end":6917.545,"text":"各國的年金體系的調整都會朝向不同職業別之間的社會團結為方向其實比較有名的例子像美國它在1983年的年金改革它其實就把公教人員也整個併到社會安全系統裡面來"},{"start":6920.808,"end":6943.343,"text":"那2000年代早期其實也開始在動作的是奧地利它也是非常的傳統的這個彼斯曼年金體系它也朝向這個不同職業身分別之間的這個整合主要是因為說在少子女化這個狀況底下然後以及平均愚民延長再加上就是我們的這個退休年齡它的這個調整往後延伸就是往延退的這個調整的路上它其實會讓這一個就是比較緩慢的這個狀況底下它其實會讓"},{"start":6949.446,"end":6970.841,"text":"領取退休金的人口群相較於工作人口的比例其實是不斷地惡化所以才會有這樣子的一個調整的方向所以說也需要進一步去思考的也在於說社會總體的產出到時候可以怎麼樣維持等等的"},{"start":6971.201,"end":6994.633,"text":"特別是少子女化的這個部分其實各位夥伴應該也會看到就是說在2023年這個2023年我們國家所公布的這個總生育率已經低到是0.872024年今年剛公布是0.865總生育率平均一位育齡婦女就生這樣子的一個子女數而已"},{"start":6995.971,"end":7017.45,"text":"如果說去參考歐陸國家各國的總生育率它平均目前是介於大概1.6到2.0之間跟台灣比起來是非常高但是它也不斷地去向下修正它所的替代率去往後延伸它的退休年齡到67到70甚至它整個拿掉退休年齡的界限"},{"start":7019.332,"end":7038.388,"text":"所以這個部分的話在台灣面臨這麼嚴峻的這個少子女化的這個議題我們必須要去嚴重的去思考這樣子的一個方向所以整體的那個政策視角的話其實我在思考就是說其實資源分配應該要著重國家未來的發展"},{"start":7039.548,"end":7065.015,"text":"撥補其實它並不是一個改革所以這個部分的話就請大家去這個部分並不是而且撥補的話它的問題就是說它拿來撥補的這個錢它其實會排擠到其他的那個政策的需求那再來的話其實各國也一直在去思考就是調降這個所得替代率的這個方向一個滿重要的思考就在於說"},{"start":7066.295,"end":7086.6,"text":"就是退休者他其實也是生活在當下的社會底下所以說他會是共同的需要去在社會環境底下去用比較相對合宜跟目前在工作人口群的薪資水準等等的去做一個充分的考量"},{"start":7087.66,"end":7104.001,"text":"所以如果回應到在這個基本的前提底下去回應到今天要討論的提綱這三題的話其實調降所的替代率的這個必要性跟合理性就這個第一個提出的問題就是考量這個基層公務員人員的訴求其實我在過去的這個"},{"start":7104.942,"end":7119.447,"text":"這個討論的時候其實我提到說如果是討論如果是考量基層公務人員他相對較低的薪資所帶來的比較低的這個年金給付的話其實會需要去思考的是提高就是他的那個"},{"start":7120.487,"end":7141.295,"text":"最低給付金額的門檻所以這個部分的話其實過去我不斷地去強調說這樣子的一個做法或許是對應這個問題的一個方式所以說在目的跟方法上面的這個調整的方式是需要去思考的就這個目前坦白說就世界各國的這個調整趨勢的話"},{"start":7144.44,"end":7158.289,"text":"甚至像瑞典其實他職業年金是會目標是往下砍到40%那國際勞動組織他的標準大概是在45%左右所以說如果就目前的公共救護人員保險假設說這兩個部分都可以拿到的話公共救護人員保險他的給付率45.5%"},{"start":7159.93,"end":7170.655,"text":"或是在之前的個人張物質調整之後52的幾負率然後再加上目前即便說往下砍 砍到62.5的話其實就國際之間的改革趨勢的話其實是還算一個還可滿足的條件"},{"start":7179.912,"end":7197.46,"text":"那再來的話月退休金的調整幅度其實我記得在2018年有提供給勞動部有一份報告書其實就談到說各國在退休金他如何去調整其中有談到這個就是依著物價調整的這個思考各國有各國的做法"},{"start":7202.302,"end":7223.4,"text":"當然也有所謂累積達到5%之後的調整台灣目前是屬於這一個但是當然如果說要考量到實質購買力的話其實各國會去做所謂的逐年調整的這件事情我會認為這個部分是我們在立法上面是可以去思考的但是歐陸各國的經驗也是就如同我剛剛在蠻重要前提談到因為"},{"start":7224.341,"end":7238.827,"text":"退休者他也是在這個社會裡面生活所以過往特別是在2010年代的時候那段時間歐陸國家有不少國家他依著他的物價去調降他的給付水準那個時候有蠻多的在報章雜誌上面的討論然後以及到2010年代尾聲那個時候才開始恢復往上調的這個部分的話其實有不少的討論再來的話要依什麼調整"},{"start":7251.613,"end":7273.678,"text":"物價指數當然會是照顧到各位退休者的實質購買力蠻重要的另外的話還有薪資的指數以及兩者的混合比例物價指數的話其實我們從台灣的物價指數我是截取2000年到2024年的物價指數的波動可以看到其實各國也會依據它不同類別的指數來加權"},{"start":7275.979,"end":7290.759,"text":"所以這個部分的話就提供給各位立法者來思考那以年金制度為攬財的誘因其實這個當然在職業年金上面的話這個會是還滿常見的那個人力資源管理思維但是就公部門體系來說的話"},{"start":7292.963,"end":7321.348,"text":"就是優秀人才如何定義以及說優秀人才就集中在公部門的這個部分的話是不是一個好的思維我會認為這個部分的話是需要去在政府體系或是立法者需要去進一步去思考的再來就會是那個薪資的結構我會認為是還滿重要的就是關鍵說能不能攬到這個好的人才因為薪資的這個水準它也會影響到後來的這個年金給付的這個水準"},{"start":7322.108,"end":7341.688,"text":"所以整體來說我之所以前面那一頁第一頁一直沒有改變是因為說其實結構性的改革才會是目前的關鍵才會是目前的關鍵所以說這句話雖然講得有點不得體就是說目前的話只是說在退休者的這些小限域性上面的增加但是相對來說的話其實"},{"start":7343.63,"end":7363.101,"text":"需要去考量更需要去考量是未來的國家發展的可能性所以結構性的修改對於整體的不管退休者或工作者來說的話會是一個比較好的思考的方向那結構性如何改革其實我也呼應到剛剛前輩有談到的基礎的以稅收的年金作為基礎保障"},{"start":7363.801,"end":7376.55,"text":"但是會需要有一個整合所有職業別的就像美國跟奧地利所做的這樣子的一個職業別年金的建制再來再加上個別職業別的職業年金 謝謝好 謝謝林教授接下來我們請張玉萌理事長發言"},{"start":7399.056,"end":7426.685,"text":"主席還有今天到場的專家學者老師們還有今天列席的官員大家早安我是世代共好協會的理事長張玉萌今天我在這邊想要是以青年的身份青年的角色對於近日的公立學校教職員退休資權撫恤條例也就是我們過去在談的公教教職員的年金改革方案"},{"start":7427.205,"end":7452.514,"text":"在現在希望可以再次的做一個改革的這個方向我希望可以發表一些不同的看法第一點我總共大概有三點的主張第一點是我仍然在現在的精算報告以及現在的所有的數據可以看到說中止所得替代率的逐年調降還是會嚴重的影響退伏基金永續性跟世代公平"},{"start":7453.214,"end":7471.126,"text":"第二點是議題很多但是月退休金的調整機制目前跟CPI也就是物價指數5%連動我仍然認為這是比較充實比較妥善的做法不應該恢復與在職人員的興奉做掛鉤"},{"start":7472.347,"end":7495.106,"text":"但是第三點我仍然認為說政府部門應該要履行承諾依精算的報告補足本來應該要足額的撥補才能真正的確保說目前基金的永續也的確是讓我們現在在校園現場辛苦的教職員跟政府之間才能有這個年金改革後續建立的信任"},{"start":7496.087,"end":7514.015,"text":"那第一個我想要談的剛剛提到的是所得替代率的逐年調降這是從2017到2018社會的確經過非常多的對立甚至是衝突所得到的結果那如果我們現在貿然的把這樣的制度再做修改"},{"start":7515.051,"end":7542.996,"text":"的確還是會對於永續性造成非常大的傷害以及在世代之間形成相對的剝奪或者是不正義目前有非常非常多的版本那我們剛剛看到會議的資料其實目前包含黨團跟委員提出的不同版本總共有10案其實主要都是在針對終止所得替代率的逐年調降也就是目前降低每年1.5%那這個目前對於年金改革的成果大家應該都清楚"},{"start":7543.696,"end":7569.712,"text":"只是如果我們目前在的確快要在改革到達尾聲的時候終止所得替代率的調降也許不會像是在當時改革準備要上路的時候甚至是我們要走回回頭路我也可以理解剛剛我們所提到這也許不是回頭路但是這的確也會對於目前造成非常大改革的成果造成非常大的衝擊第一個是退府基金的用慶年限當然我們"},{"start":7570.572,"end":7591.941,"text":"完全可以理解錢絕對不會從天上掉下來所以用慶的年限只要我們在現在做終止一定還是會提前回顧過去的成果其實最大最大的成果在年金改革的重要成果就是所得替代率的逐年跳降那這個也是當然減輕過去政府的財務赤字跟財務試算的壓力結果"},{"start":7594.682,"end":7613.307,"text":"這也是讓現在的基金可以永續運作最重要的一個改革依據那根據全序部的計算結果如果全序部的計算是正確的我們可以發現如果停止所得替代率的逐年調降規劃目前公教職員的退服基金會提早到民國129年就歸零"},{"start":7615.487,"end":7644.947,"text":"那如果我们目前要采取这样的措施我们应该要对于129年之后做一个更清楚的规划而不是在还没有规划之前我们就来调降那我也可以理解就算我们不调降的确我们用信的年限仍然存在是在131年或者是134年那在这之后要长什么样子这个我们也当然认为政府在现在二次的年金改革之后也应该要持续的来做精算跟说明"},{"start":7646.388,"end":7669.888,"text":"第二个这个将会影响到回流到基金的金额所以当今天如果我们停止所得替代率的调降大概会减少2700多亿回流到退付基金的经费那这一笔钱或者是这样的回流的经费势必会造成严重的冲击如果要做这样的调整那我也希望说不论是立法院或者是相关"},{"start":7670.689,"end":7681.958,"text":"主管機關所試算的結果也應該要清楚的來說明說如果透過這樣的持續的檢討跟再次的修正那到底這樣的衝擊要如何來處理"},{"start":7683.581,"end":7712.921,"text":"那再來我也要明確的指出說終止所得替代率的調降當然還是會讓世代之間有衝突或者是相對剝奪的感受2018年的年金改革最主要最重要我們也看到從這兩三週在立法院或者是司法法制的聯席的委員會其實看到非常多的關鍵字就是在降低世代的衝突達到世代的和解或者是世代可以如何一起走向未來但是如果我們現在"},{"start":7714.561,"end":7740.148,"text":"持续的或者是贸然的进行这样的修改并没有透过像是过去全国性的国事会议层级的讨论那是否就是让现在40岁上下的公教人员去面临在退休的时候基金破产的困境那这样的困境要如何可以说服这样的年轻世代可以持续的投入实际的教育现场"},{"start":7740.948,"end":7761.454,"text":"那剛剛我也認同非常多的教育先進所提到在現在教學現場面臨到非常非常多的困境那這樣的困境跟所得替代率的調降是不是有直接必然的衝突這個我實在也還是打上一個問號我們現在在校園現場的確看到在過去教師管教造成很多的衝突這個我們也都是承認的"},{"start":7761.934,"end":7791.23,"text":"但我们也过去讨论如何在亲师生可以一起在教育现场共同讨论的情况下我们也修正了不当管教或者是不适应教师退场的方法我们希望说这样的过程可以让教师也获得更好的保障不会在过去亲师生之间的冲突不断或者是大家对于制度的不信任所造成教师也仍然不论是有行政荒或者是逃离教学现场的这样的问题所以不当管教的确我们也修正了像是教师的退避权"},{"start":7791.85,"end":7805.616,"text":"或者是在緊急避難的時候教師仍然可以執行比較直接的這樣管教的權利我們在校士會議也持續的在調整持續的在檢討說是否每年會看到我們的數據或者是在教學現場"},{"start":7806.997,"end":7827.399,"text":"的確會造成師生的衝突那這樣是否有促進師生的溝通所以我們也增加了調和的機制那這些其實都是教育現場的改革我們仍然可以去持續的討論但是我認為不應該貿然的針對世代之間不同的退休制度來貿然做調整那第二個我想要談到的是剛剛"},{"start":7828.82,"end":7850.561,"text":"幾位先進也提到的跟CPI的調整其實這件事情我認為在67條裡面過去規範的的確我們跟現在的國民年金跟勞保的制度是有不同這個非常值得檢討但是檢討的機制跟CPI本身我認為應該要切開來討論什麼意思呢的確我們看到說過去這樣的正負5%的調整"},{"start":7852.603,"end":7878.455,"text":"那不只是正負5%CPI的調整他還要從行政院會同考試院那到立法院來做決議那這樣的制度的確跟勞保還有國民年金是不同的那這個機制本身我講的是機制從行政院還必須要會同考試院等機制應該要可以來檢視這我完全的認同但是我們的國民年金跟勞保也都是CPI的正負5%"},{"start":7879.295,"end":7895.447,"text":"如果我們把這樣的制度這樣的數字貿然的脫鉤我認為這個會造成不同職業別之間更大的衝突也就是為什麼我們在公教之間不去適用CPI正負5%的規定甚至稍微把它做降低那這甚至可能會造成"},{"start":7896.548,"end":7912.406,"text":"我們的調整只剩不減的問題所以我認為我們的正負5%這件事情在目前應該要來跟我們後續的調整機制來做不同的討論而不應該全部綁在一起一起做修法"},{"start":7913.027,"end":7939.84,"text":"第三個是我也要求說也認為說應該要要求說全序部應該還是要足而來做撥補所以這件事情我認為應該看起來是有共識的我們雖然在年金所得替代率是否要調降以及CPI並且行政院會同考試院的機制上面應該有一些分歧但是我也認為說全序部在這樣的精算結果之下仍然必須要持續的來做撥補才能確保基金的永續"},{"start":7940.76,"end":7958.301,"text":"無論是所得替代率或者是退服基金造成的財務缺口這些都始終存在雖然我們現在已經做了改革但是政府作為雇主我們也仍然看到這樣的缺口並沒有消失所以政府還是應該要必須很誠實的面對公教人員退休金所負起的這樣的責任"},{"start":7959.562,"end":7985.663,"text":"也因此所以這就是我為什麼想要提醒全序部必須要落實足而撥補的問題那這個也當然是在教育現場很多的老師等等的提出來的訴求才能確保基金的永續那以現在精算報告20年期為例的版本其實看到說必須要撥補194億那其實不論是用10年15年或者是20年的版本都應該要落實現在的試算結果進行足而撥補所以最後我想要"},{"start":7987.605,"end":8007.557,"text":"做一個結論就是多年來其實社會上面對於年金改革都從民間社會專家學者政府持續的對話溝通那我也很感謝今天有這樣的公聽會可以來有一個理性的討論那但是年金改革其實走了這樣子接近十年我們也應該要確保基金的永續來緩解世代衝突落實世代正義的精神謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":8017.815,"end":8028.28,"text":"對 我先做一個公聽會的程序預告那稍後在李燕秀委員發言完畢之後呢我們就先休息個五分鐘然後接下來再請各位專家學者繼續發言好 謝謝周偉今天排了一個這樣子的公聽會"},{"start":8034.795,"end":8055.794,"text":"提到整個國家的財政永續民進黨上任將近步入第十年常常最近這幾年在講說我們稅增超收其實國家的財政還不錯所以我們才有機會一個一個特別預算慢慢一個一個都編出來甚至是到明年我們國防的特別預算達到1.3兆"},{"start":8058.996,"end":8078.026,"text":"談到所有的基金其實我們國家大大小小的基金很多該檢討的早就也應該要檢討也不只是過去的軍公教的退伏相關的基金講到世代的正義其實過去在立法院不分朝野黨派"},{"start":8079.771,"end":8097.342,"text":"對於如何讓台灣少子化之後或現在通膨的問題年輕人可以過得更好包括在生育 在社宅的部分我們都不斷地在編列預算所以怎麼樣去減少世代的衝突絕對不是只有年金的改革"},{"start":8098.482,"end":8119.717,"text":"我們還有很多不同的工具不分朝野黨派我們都在努力讓我們年輕人無論是在勞動力生產力在生育率我們給予足夠的工具跟資源能讓國家更好那我非常遺憾就是說世代和解世代正義世代和解其實"},{"start":8121.628,"end":8140.33,"text":"過去國家最重要的軍工教我們如果沒有過去軍工教的付出哪有台灣這幾年中華民國這幾年這麼穩定的基礎無論是對於台灣整體的國防對於我們過去的十大建設還有我們過去奠定這麼多優秀的公務人員"},{"start":8141.551,"end":8160.484,"text":"這都是我們台灣的成就但是我覺得不應該一直不斷地用世代對立這幾個字來當我們年輕改革的導火線這撕裂的是整體國家民眾跟民眾之間的情感人民跟人民之間的情感更是增加更多的人民的對立"},{"start":8162.774,"end":8174.981,"text":"我剛已經提到在整體國家經濟起飛建設的那個年代軍工教是我們最可靠也是最堅實的力量也是我們最堅實的後盾但是我們在修法的過程當中不論是剛剛提到的我們當時一直有提到說包括隨著我們物價的調整我們應該沒幾年我們應該來再去做一些檢討什麼的"},{"start":8185.427,"end":8207.835,"text":"但是我非常遺憾的當時在立法院民進黨是用多數暴力本來應該放進去的條文最後該討論都變成是過場從106年教師年改立法到現在8年我們的消費我們的物價大漲了13.42%換句話說我們一所的替代率上限從107年起合計已經調降了9%"},{"start":8211.596,"end":8220.931,"text":"退休的教師更要承擔13.42%的通膨 合計已經超過兩成已經超過原定所得替代率在118年要下調15%的目標當時"},{"start":8227.08,"end":8243.494,"text":"政府對於教師的承諾不僅是我們當時用羞辱的方式在立法院通過了年改的法案那當時說通膨要檢討的其實我們也到最後法條也沒有通過"},{"start":8244.395,"end":8259.632,"text":"那当时的讨论也是过场式的讨论所以当时我们退休人员的退幅跟当时给予的时间因时值而减少就是说随着时间跟通膨我们当时本来认为说他每一年应该可以达到他至少"},{"start":8260.433,"end":8279.988,"text":"年老經濟可以照顧他他的所得還可以照顧他但是現在完全不是如此親愛軍公教的權益是非常大的軍公教自從進入職場以來薪資待遇退休都是依照政府給的規定軍公教他沒有協商權他更沒有成立工會的權利"},{"start":8281.977,"end":8294.754,"text":"他更沒有成立工會的權利我們都非常氣沒有發生的機會跟管道他是最沉默的一群當他們退休之後沒想到配合年改年改的過程當中被批評說他們是米蟲"},{"start":8297.257,"end":8312.369,"text":"並且很多的法條是對立法院多數的暴力來去做調整所以我非常期待這一次的修法是大家可以靜下心來去了解他們到底碰到哪些問題更何況這一次的停砍是停砍不是我們要多撥補多少的預算是我們現在我們整體的物價通膨的問題再加上過去砍了多少我們目前是希望停砍的狀況"},{"start":8326.199,"end":8342.511,"text":"並不是我們要多給多少錢所以真正的世代正義世代和解世代和平我們希望可以透過這一次修法大家可以更理性來做討論以上 謝謝好 謝謝李委員那我們就現在先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8682.981,"end":8686.863,"text":"我們現在再來繼續後續的會議我們首先先有請黃心香理事長發言對 不好意思我先處理一下會議時間那麼公聽會上午的會議時間繼續進行到所有人發言均結束為止接下來我們再請黃理事長發言"},{"start":8716.691,"end":8737.616,"text":"各位先進委員 大家好還有教育部的長官 大家好我是全國代理機代課教師產業工會的理事長黃祥賢今天要談的是從退休金看見現在台灣的教育現場困境今天是談退休就是後端人力那我們是前端人力也就是進入教育現場作為一個年輕人我想要跟大家分享為什麼現在的教師黃"},{"start":8741.426,"end":8765.14,"text":"好那這個是今天討論的重點在第三個年金改革後的人力結構的影響那我必須說這是議題三的部分那我但必須說我作為一個代理教師代理現場七年的時候看到的現況跟樣態現在的通膨問題嚴重因為年金改革導致教師荒我必須誠實的說可能有一點點脫鉤等一下"},{"start":8772.755,"end":8797.986,"text":"這個抱歉現在的教師荒不是教師荒是代理教師荒不是沒有人要當代理教沒有人要當老師是沒有人要當代理教師為什麼我可以這樣說呢這個是113年台北市的教師甄選聯他在招考的時候我記得是400個名額總共有3467個人到考也就是說當正式老師他還是還是有一族群的年輕教師他的到考率是996"},{"start":8799.807,"end":8820.39,"text":"所以他其實是很多人想要當正式教師好 這個是2020年校正考試從台北市 新北市 台南我們都可以看到都是倍數可能五倍 四倍的成長那南投縣跟台東縣我來自於南投南投今年開141個缺額有729個人報考所以這個是教師黃嗎我想要說的是其實是代理教師黃"},{"start":8821.411,"end":8843.218,"text":"那在今天來這個公聽會的時候我有做一些調查那這是填票的因為時間比較短填的那在這件事情修法的支持度社會的意見是分來分歧的但是比較多數的意見是以限制為明確的主流那再來提高退休金是否會排擠限制的經費超過50%的人認為有機會排擠的風險這是數據的呈現跟大家分享"},{"start":8850.339,"end":8866.995,"text":"再來教師荒跟年改的關係教師荒跟大部分的現場還是認為有相關但是關鍵的還是在現在的薪資跟待遇跟工作過勞的現況薪資是否反映工作的負荷九成的教師認為待遇不符合責任與期待再來"},{"start":8867.856,"end":8888.807,"text":"那反映教育現場的長期過勞跟低保守的問題我們的導師費一個月三千塊一天才不到一百塊高達86%的人認為應該要提升那當初說你修年改之後會做教育現場的改革我覺得我並沒有看到現在教育現場的改革跟狀態那這裡呼籲行政階級跟等等的階級都也是必須很常提升"},{"start":8890.468,"end":8912.061,"text":"再來提升教育職業的吸引力的關鍵有81%的人認為是要提高限職的待遇再來 教育的根本就是限職的穩定跟穩定性有一些調查數據就譜著我今天的立場其實是我覺得年金台改革當然需要討論但教育現場是不能等那缺的老師他需要補足的是什麼"},{"start":8913.281,"end":8937.876,"text":"教師荒的本質是代理教師荒是一年一聘的老師 沒有人要當正式教師人是有大量的人要報告那限職過低的話會導致人力的斷層跟教育品質的惡化代理教師薪資高 工時長定期化契約一年一聘的缺乏保障也就是說我今年工作可能明年就沒有工作那這樣造成人力結構的失衡結構的失衡 教育品質的影響那還有另外一個是也必須幫現場的正式教師發聲"},{"start":8939.017,"end":8943.242,"text":"他們長時間超時過勞像剛剛有一位老師他要趕回去學校上課因為他的小孩他的班級導師但他國家卻是給他三千塊去要他去負擔這樣子的責任"},{"start":8950.646,"end":8970.154,"text":"好 那作為一個三十幾歲的年輕人我是一個適婚適合要生育的女性我說實在的我不敢生也不太敢生也不太想生因為我在看到現在的教育現況的人力結構是用這樣的方式的時候那教育薪資沒有競爭力年輕人不投入導致教師房教育品質下降近年來的虐童案是"},{"start":8971.534,"end":8986.135,"text":"就是越來越多請問像我們有什麼勇氣讓年輕人敢生育那國家又拿什麼制度來保障已經生小孩的父母那就只會加劇我們的少子化好 這個是OECD它前陣子做的一個現場的報告其實"},{"start":8988.618,"end":9010.627,"text":"現場的教師年長的部分超過其實不只是台灣整個世界 全世界都在教師荒所以這個部分其實是台灣本來就應該要面對的困境OECD在去年的研究當中它發現就是在中學年段其實呈現過老化的趨勢那也就是各國如果不及時"},{"start":9011.627,"end":9025.443,"text":"不趕快投入教育人力的培育跟留任政策的話就會像台灣現在面臨嚴重的教育人力缺口教育人力缺教師方我從三年前創公會的時候就一直提起各縣市教師政府這個是不能忽視的問題"},{"start":9027.224,"end":9045.415,"text":"現場缺代理教師但請問一下代理教師有退休金嗎不好意思我家人擔任了二十幾年的代理教師他領的是勞退沒有代理教師的退休金就算了連隔年的工作權他明年有沒有工作權都還不確定因為他是定期發契約請問一下要怎麼解決代理教師荒"},{"start":9046.616,"end":9072.543,"text":"這是職業風險正式教師 代理教師正式教師因為有永久的職業但是薪資保障在台灣來說薪資保障是這樣我個人其實很想說年金改革當初處理的事情在未來的少子化你必須一定要用這種替代性能力的時候我覺得應該用替代性的薪資替代補償缺失的職業保障你就是要它一年免費定期契約的員工本來就應該比不定期契約員工的薪水還來得高"},{"start":9074.183,"end":9089.431,"text":"這個是OECD同一份報告它也有講到各國之間不是只有台灣有權代理教師的問題在非合格教師的話在北歐東歐都有出現這樣子的問題這個是一些細節所以整體顯現是培育留任的合格教師要是政策的挑戰"},{"start":9090.251,"end":9112.727,"text":"所以我在這裡說 其實也很感謝教育部跟立法院之前在修訂代教室聯繫諮詢的辦法的時候我們已經在超越了旁邊的國家在全球教師黃小指化的挑戰之下我們的教育體系必須建立一個完善且可持續性的替代性人力制度這是在前端的時候我們應該要去做的一部主現在正是教師部主的缺口"},{"start":9113.887,"end":9128.333,"text":"這個是一些政策的建議那在第四個的部分是我們從2023年台灣現在確實在前端人口做了很前端的教育人力做了很多的努力比如說全年病還有年資提敘可是今年開始走年資提敘之後還是足夠嗎不好意思在2025年也就是這個學期開學期還缺1429名1429名平均分散在現場的教室勞力就是繼續過勞你讓他繼續過勞他又不想當老師那就是一個惡性循環"},{"start":9140.978,"end":9165.169,"text":"那之前都是教團主動遊說跟甚至是透過憲法法庭的判決才拿到代理教室的年資體恤我這裡呼籲教育部其實應該要化被動為主動你應該要解決現場教師過勞的問題提升薪資好那我提出三點很簡單教育行政專職化這已經喊了N年前輩們也都一直在喊再來第二個提高終點費第三個就是我剛剛講的提待薪資的補償"},{"start":9166.229,"end":9183.785,"text":"好 最後再次強調不是教師荒是代理教師荒那我們該加強除了加強後端的人力的補償及至前端的人力是不是也應該要大家來面試因為我作為一個教師我覺得現在的教育現場其實是非常的困境那也有很多跟我同年齡的已經當爸媽的"},{"start":9186.707,"end":9203.154,"text":"家長們也是憂心忡忡的跟我聊過很像很多的這樣問題所以我其實很希望立法者或者是教育部等現場的大家可以一起關心代理教室的薪資跟還有整個人力結構我們怎麼樣把它的前中後期做得完善"},{"start":9203.914,"end":9225.619,"text":"好 對不起這一個圖可能會有一點點現場的對立但是我沒有要先接近現場的對立但這就是現實中為什麼會找不到代理教師因為在無證代理教師下面可以看到無證代理教師他是一年一聘也就是說他明年走了我們政府不用付任何的成本就是我講直接的我覺得政府是一個"},{"start":9227.679,"end":9242.47,"text":"滿沒道德的就是你用一年一聘去聘這些老師然後要他們去用自己的職涯用最精華的20歲到30歲的之間去奉獻教育可是你卻不用為了他的退休做任何補償那尤其是薪資來說"},{"start":9244.588,"end":9267.749,"text":"吳政代理教師也就是第三招的代理教師他一個月現在薪水是三萬八那請問一下我們台灣的教育現場的人力有什麼競爭力這是我很欣賞的一句話不要讓政黨利益超過國家利益不要讓短期利益超越長期利益不要讓少數人的利益犧牲多數人的利益我覺得台灣的教育需要大家共同努力的共同利益大家一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":9271.479,"end":9292.748,"text":"好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請李惠蘭理事長發言還沒講之前因為我講說因為當初以為是15分鐘所以就準備了15分鐘那現在的話可能比較少一點如果待會有第二輪的話也想能夠讓我講一下不好意思抱歉 當時的那個訊息有些錯誤還請理事長見諒那我們先請理事長發言 謝謝"},{"start":9296.823,"end":9316.772,"text":"召委各位與會的貴賓大家好我是台北市學校教育產業工會理事長李蕙蘭我們來看一下那個等一下暫停一下因為我用那個PPT好來時間先暫停現在是已經有PPT嗎是另外一份簡報嗎用拋棍GDF檔的話就是"},{"start":9328.637,"end":9348.712,"text":"應該這也是可以用那個用簡報筆控制的但是因為我都會有那個前後的出現沒關係如果是這樣的話我們就這樣子吧好 你們耽誤時間好 那沒關係那就這樣子因為比我當初設想的不一樣我這樣子就一下再出來可能畫面會比較亂一點沒關係"},{"start":9351.306,"end":9362.27,"text":"來 我們來看看軍公教人員本來是匆匆容容 有刃有餘但是自從退休金二砍之後現在是什麼匆匆忙忙 連滾帶爬綠色執政簡直是睜眼說瞎話"},{"start":9366.992,"end":9385.203,"text":"政府騙什麼騙啊 喊什麼歸零啊沒出息 每年都在喊歸零每年都在喊破產難道你對於精算報告還搞不清楚嗎在所謂的我們權需部跟教育部你們是專業的在那個位置上面你怎麼會搞不清楚尤其是我們台灣的退休金的制度呢"},{"start":9385.703,"end":9405.805,"text":"在這裡頭我要稍微講一下就是有關於剛才呢聽了很多在座的不管是委員或者是專家學者我這邊有幾點要稍微說一下因為我們剛才呢有個民進黨委員他提到馬英九先生馬英九總統我們就要講一下免得誤會了馬英九總統他當初的那個公務人員所得第一代律師下修75到80%"},{"start":9407.907,"end":9414.912,"text":"85字變成90字幾乎是本縫的兩倍把它從兩倍變成1.5倍不像我們這樣子本縫乘以2在砍什麼在砍所得替代率沒有這回事那1995年的N幾字基本上它是不會動那比較動得再大的是跨新舊制就像剛才我們那個我們代理的代理代課教室理事長講的那位老師他就是跨新舊制但是現在不會有這麼多"},{"start":9434.385,"end":9451.904,"text":"這第一個那第二個剛又談到黃國昌我們那個主席他都改革一定要將所得替代率調整到合理的水準這是黃國昌民眾黨主席講的話他提到的是合理的調整所以不要張冠李戴"},{"start":9452.805,"end":9464.136,"text":"最重要的我們常講說人在公門好休息我們任何在政府要做的是福國利民的政策不能夠因為你的政治算計冰冷的數據來對所有的軍工叫"},{"start":9468.9,"end":9497.15,"text":"警消人員去做砍伐那有一個數據要跟大家講一下因為我現在回應的就是前面幾位專家學者還有一些委員的那個那有關於公務人員30年118年是砍到4萬不是全區部長的5萬有關於教師的部分25年年資的教授118年之後是剩下4.7萬不是5.8萬不要亂講話每次都用精算報告胡說八道那接下來"},{"start":9504.936,"end":9520.372,"text":"在這頭我有五個要求還有最重要的是希望我們全體一起來反詐騙第一個要求停止付表3逐年遞減1.5%的退休金第二個要求政府依法撥補金額到退補基金第三個要求政府承擔你"},{"start":9521.013,"end":9536.244,"text":"雇主的責任 挹注資金到退伏基金裡面第四個 要求軍公教退休金比照現值調整並與勞保 國保 農保一致退休金CPI累計成長率核實調整那很多人講說你教師已經退休了為什麼要跟著調整呢但是我們知道勞保 國保 農保也是一樣他們也是退休啊也是一樣按照CPI累計成長來做核實調整"},{"start":9547.051,"end":9565.333,"text":"大家都可以為什麼對軍公教這麼樣的敵意第五個反詐騙資訊我們希望我們的政府停止操弄職業跟世代的對立好講到精算報告我們就看到監察院針對於在106年的精算報告裡面有很多的意見第一個他說了"},{"start":9566.494,"end":9586.19,"text":"大家用精算的报告来砍军公教他告诉你精算的结果是有错误的但是全序部跟教育部竟然没有察觉这是一种疏失接下来呢精算的评估结果不符合一般公认精算实务的准则全序部及教育部审查报告之过程有欠谨慎"},{"start":9587.031,"end":9592.073,"text":"確屬未妥接下來呢他也講過我們現在退休金改革只有兩個一個是減少退休金的給付還有有關於就是公保18%實際上真正名稱叫做公保年金但是現在大家都不知道其實對現在退休的軍公教來講我們的公保年金所謂的18%早就沒有了"},{"start":9607.759,"end":9635.544,"text":"你所得替代率一砍下去他叫公德款全部被政府沒收好在這邊一定要澄清一下那接下來呢在整個年改的過程裡面並沒有實際上的好好的那個溝通那我們在這裡頭有關於我們的監察院他講過使退休給付債權永成不確定狀態等其適用對象與範圍涵蓋了已退休或者是未退休之所有軍工賬違反法律不溯及以既往原則侵害公務人員的什麼財產權"},{"start":9636.744,"end":9658.35,"text":"當然大法官會議他否決了但是大家都一定要知道這本來就是一個常態那尤其呢我們民進黨政府最喜歡講到OECD但是我們知道任何一個國家它的條件都是不一樣這個都沒有去做好好的評估好這個呢其實基本上是一樣的我們在"},{"start":9660.27,"end":9683.982,"text":"好 我們第一個要求停止負表3逐年遞減1.5%在這裡頭剛才大家都提到了所以我們這個就不再多說因為時間不夠我們就把那個時間就是講過我就不再重複那在這裡頭呢因為我剛好參加節目有人就講說哎呀 你們退服就軍功教真好本奉誠意什麼本奉誠二在誠意年資所得替代率他每次講的都是年資誠意什麼"},{"start":9685.293,"end":9699.405,"text":"乘以兩倍但是他沒有講到的是那個什麼所得替代率要去砍但是呢我們限職教師的部分他其實也是用本分乘以二去砍他的那個每個月的提撥率所以每個月也是多繳錢給政府那我們來做那個勞工我們現在要對哪裡對著哪裡要給我一點時間因為這個地方右鍵對啊右鍵啊"},{"start":9710.894,"end":9738.972,"text":"沒錯 我一直在用右鍵啊但他應該看我太激動了 好那我們先來比較有關於限職教師以及勞工的部分我們把那個同樣星級的拿過來我們可以發覺到老師其實是每一個月繳兩筆錢那我們勞工實際上是繳一筆錢那勞退的部分 那個字體的部分不算但是我們來算看看其實限職教師跟同級的勞工朋友來講他實際上他繳的錢是那個勞工朋友的五到七倍"},{"start":9743.202,"end":9761.213,"text":"我這個你幫我操作好了我講說下一張好不好這個有點問題下一張就這個好那比較之後我們可以發覺到30年這是勞動部的資料這沒有造假30年年資所得替代率勞保加勞退是68的"},{"start":9762.794,"end":9779.839,"text":"那個所得替代率而且他是用什麼5年的平均但是呢軍公教他是什麼退伏基金他是到了30年他所得替代率只剩下52.5而且他還沒有算15年軍奉加上15年軍奉呢他還要再降個8到12%下一張下一張"},{"start":9788.482,"end":9811.294,"text":"第二个要求政府依法拨补这个拨补我们看每一个法条都告诉你拨补拨补拨补看到退福基金它如果有一些缺口的时候其实上第一个就是调整费率就是限制教师的部分第二个就是政府的拨补但是我们政府从精算报告到现在它所拨补的钱是零最后是由政府负责任下一张"},{"start":9812.645,"end":9826.565,"text":"那我們看依法履行撥補那如果因為你不撥補照理來講113 114你要撥補每一年521億但是因為你不撥補造成第九次的精算報告就變成818億這是誰的錯就是你政府的錯因為你沒有及時撥補下一張"},{"start":9828.499,"end":9851.264,"text":"好 民進黨說撥補就是改革所以勞工撥補連續6年撥補了3870億元是改革但是我們的老闆 我們的教育部 我們的全球部在幹什麼軍公教撥補呢叫做世代不公而且叫做掏空國庫 簡直是造謠因為軍公教的撥補從107年到現在原來退府基金的缺口的撥補金額是零 零 零跟大家講一聲 下一張"},{"start":9854.163,"end":9858.491,"text":"全書部沒有依法撥補金額呢現在又在恐嚇二基金要歸零說負債2.69兆我們來看一下這個錢是什麼"},{"start":9863.347,"end":9888.957,"text":"這個錢是什麼 叫做異住金 異住金是什麼那就是說砍了我們退休軍公教的錢放到退府基金裡面甚至於把84年N幾次這些退休的軍公教的錢也全部砍到什麼 退府基金裡面N幾次84年之前跟退府基金一點關係都沒有剛才我們的鳳群那個副理事長他有提到所以呢 這又是一個欺騙的手法還有那個障眼 下一張"},{"start":9890.947,"end":9918.965,"text":"好 真正的專業的政務官是如何解釋這個潛藏負債因為大家都在講潛藏負債多少多少實際上退府基金精算報告它告訴你說未來50年你可能面對這樣的問題是叫你去盡早去做去做措施不要遇到所謂最後所謂的用慶的部分但是我們政府用精算報告來主要的目的就是來恐嚇我們軍公教這是非常糟糕的所以在這裡頭呢我們的前輩都講第一個就是編列預算第二個就是調整費率潛藏"},{"start":9919.805,"end":9936.454,"text":"负债只是会计上的债务非实际的负债那我们来看叶长明之前的特普斯司长他就讲过从来没有一个国家是用高龄老人作为他的斗争虐杀的对象而且削减的台湾的退休金是30到40%够残忍的 下一张"},{"start":9938.206,"end":9949.581,"text":"那我們來看看第一個 大水庫 我們國家的財政很好啊現在都要普發現金啊對不對 哪裡沒有錢 你告訴我對不對 超送那麼多錢 都是老百姓的錢那個錢不是錢嗎 下一張"},{"start":9952.145,"end":9971.228,"text":"好 接下來第二個小水庫的部分也是一樣小水庫我們退伏基金在這近五年它所得投報率大概是9%以上所有的精算報告還有它的金額因為剛跳過去了也是賺的蠻多的錢大水庫 小水庫都有錢 你砍什麼砍"},{"start":9972.809,"end":9989.994,"text":"第三个要求政府承担雇主的责任把挹注资金到退股基金因为85年之后它叫做除金制但是现在我们的政府呢把65%的责任给弄掉了叫什么叫所有的军公照就是退休人员去负担你百分之百的责任好我们就退一步好了啦"},{"start":9991.147,"end":9997.173,"text":"你政府是不是也要按照儲金制的精神你要負擔那個65%35%我們退休軍工教去承擔就算了所以呢我們現在政府到挹注資金到那個下一張其實呢挹注到退補資金的金額是零好我們再往我們來看在這一張呢我們可以發覺到現值呢退休的他撥補了那個挹注到不是撥補講錯"},{"start":10015.731,"end":10025.193,"text":"就是砍老人的錢 挹注到退補基金裡面已經是2590.84億但是我們政府都沒有支付可以給我多少時間呢 下一張"},{"start":10027.045,"end":10036.115,"text":"那我們政府照理來講 你用儲金制你要負擔65%啊所以照理來講 你應該要挹注金額到那個退幅基金是4811.56億那我們軍工匠已經在這幾年呢已經把我們的錢被你砍了放到2590.84億"},{"start":10045.766,"end":10070.388,"text":"那你為什麼不把這個什麼金額 挹注到退福基金撥補也不撥補啦 挹注也不挹注啦咋那邊敢講幹話 就是講說什麼人家要那個破產歸零 真是很糟糕 下一張好 第四個要求軍公教退休金比照限制調整與勞工國保農保一致退休金隨CPI累計成長率何時調整這是大家都講過 我們就不再多說下一張"},{"start":10071.636,"end":10096.426,"text":"提供商對於有關於那個什麼公教人力結構和纜財之影響實際上大家都當鴕鳥都不講都不說實際上為什麼我們找不到老師軍人也不進來對不對那公務人員也不進來現在呢應屆畢業生考公職剩下兩成應屆畢業生考教師的剩下三成那就是什麼退休金的改革不是年改是退休金的改革下一張再下一張這個不講了好再下一張"},{"start":10101.297,"end":10105.686,"text":"好 所以我們講說我們要反詐騙停止政治的操弄"},{"start":10107.243,"end":10131.502,"text":"軍啊 事成如草芥 成事君如寇愁這就是我現在的心情所以我們呼籲公教的大家長 權需部 教育部第一個 停止提供錯誤的敘述誤導我們台灣的人民停止視聽媒體 網軍對軍公教的抹黑 栽贓跟甩鍋停止製造世代對立 停止製造職業別的對立我們希望呢 停止"},{"start":10133.223,"end":10155.954,"text":"逐年遞減1.5%退休金的誤導因為現在很多媒體都說 哎呀年改又回來了 我們不是年改回來我們這是停侃 先止血而已好 以上謝謝大家好 謝謝李惠蘭理事長因為剛剛那個操作的錯誤所以就是多給了一點點時間那接下來我們請黃景堂教授發言"},{"start":10164.852,"end":10181.283,"text":"主席 那麼各位委員 那麼各位先進 大家早安 大家好我有一個書面意見在這個大本的這個最後面那我想我接下來的發言就不照著這個我的書面 就是等有點比較"},{"start":10182.923,"end":10207.594,"text":"歸納式的來反映今天的一些意見但是跟我的書面意見是大致相近的就是說我們首先在談這個年金的高低月退休金的高低我們還是要講到一些憲法上的原則我們憲法上的原則應該就是如果依照德國法的比較就叫做供養原則它叫Alimentationsprinzip"},{"start":10208.234,"end":10224.547,"text":"那他簡單講就是說我們這個公務人員他這個他的功能上的定位他對我們這個整個國家的這個這個法律的執行那麼法律的執行就代表的說我們整個這個法律能夠運作這個國家的體制能夠能夠確實運作"},{"start":10228.85,"end":10251.579,"text":"而這個法治國能夠落實就代表著民主才能夠落實我們透過民主 透過選舉那麼選出議員 組成國會 制定法律這整個國家意志就是經由法律經由公務人員的執行所以它跟整個法治國跟整個民主國是息息相關的"},{"start":10252.299,"end":10273.668,"text":"甚至也可以說它是跟國家的競爭力尤其在巨變的時代它是具有無比的直接的關聯性這樣子所以就是說我們對於公務人員應該的鳳級的法制跟退休之前撫恤的法制"},{"start":10275.009,"end":10289.125,"text":"應該遵循所謂的供養原則是這樣子那麼德國法他甚至講說他這個保障要保障到說他能夠在法律上獨立性他在執法的時候他在執行公務的時候他沒有顧慮"},{"start":10290.086,"end":10315.703,"text":"因為他的經濟整個生活的方面包括他個人跟他的家屬是得到確保經濟上的獨立性那麼在法律上的獨立性那麼在經濟上獨立性那麼在社會的從而在社會的整個階層社會的互動上他也能夠保持他的獨立性那麼整個給付的水平要達到說跟相同的勞工訓練養成"},{"start":10319.165,"end":10336.577,"text":"只為這個相同的勞工階級能夠有這個最低的就更高一些的相應而且更高一些的而達到最低的生活舒適度他講到說他是這個樣子所以我們不能動不動就說我們剛剛有這個學者人家講說我們現在勞工他父親這個月齡2萬母親月齡1萬這個是這個如果我們要講說我們台灣當今中階勞工"},{"start":10347.745,"end":10368.339,"text":"中階勞工的薪資是不止這個數字就是說這講真的尤其當然不同的行業的中階勞工不同但是就是說以半導體業來講那他絕對不止這個我們這個全息部所講的這個公務人員現金月退休金平均50395公立學校教職員月退休金57900多"},{"start":10370.42,"end":10398.753,"text":"不只這個數字這樣子好 那麼當然就是說我們會有不同的講法比如說有的學者會認為說那這個是古代的這個來自這個普魯士時代的這個理念這個供養原則這個對公務員的定位跟所導出的這個供養原則但是我認為說這個我們就是要不要真正的去體認 去承認去接受說公務人員 公教人員具有無比的重要性對我們這個國家"},{"start":10400.995,"end":10415.053,"text":"這個民主原則法治原則這個落實國家競爭力等等這些好那麼接下來就是說那麼我們這個目前所提的這個立法委員們所提的這個不同的這個提案大致相近那有幾個這個方法"},{"start":10415.353,"end":10430.205,"text":"那我逐一來談第一個就是停止調降1.5%嘛對不對那從這個比如說從今年開始停止調降或是追溯到從去年開始停止調降那麼我認為這個也是合理的這個是可行是合理那理由就是說"},{"start":10432.026,"end":10445.376,"text":"就是說這個本來當時的三減的幅度就是蠻激烈的我講真的就是在2018年年改的時候那第二就是我們從現在來看的話就通膨指數上是讓人家這個感到憂心的"},{"start":10446.256,"end":10455.884,"text":"然後整個生活有諸多的不確定性比如說地緣政治 兩岸關係接下來整個公務員加薪4次總共是3加4加4加3 達到14%"},{"start":10465.812,"end":10490.697,"text":"他加薪是我在我的書面那我們這個月退休金的增加只有2次2加4所以等於是14%比6%所以是也有相當的這個差距這樣子那麼就是說如果我們就說不予以刪減的話不停止刪減還要繼續刪減個4年對不對那不得了在4年就6%嘛對不對那這整個就是說不是就不會再是全西部所講的50395就降到4以下了對不對"},{"start":10494.458,"end":10508.998,"text":"降到5以下大概4點多我覺得這個對公務人員來講是嚴峻的我這邊再提一個書面上有講到就是說我們普遍要接受說要知道說我們一個叫做不健康餘命這個概念"},{"start":10509.719,"end":10533.88,"text":"不健康營運這個概念這個達到8年這我們卓榮泰院長在一個會議上也講到所以這個大家就有壓力對不對那你如果說以現在來講這個50395公務人員平均這未來再假設再往下降那不得了你怎麼來因應這個不健康的8年營運那接下來講說第二種就是說"},{"start":10534.981,"end":10560.652,"text":"是不是水桶限職人員調薪這個我們有有一些委員是這樣提案的比如說傅坤吉 洪孟楷 林思敏委員那麼這個剛剛張志倫委員的犯也是這個樣子那我這邊講就是說水桶限職人員調薪呢德國就是這樣做我特別要講德國就是這樣做德國呢他第一個他第一個是規定他的這個公務人員退休資權撫恤法第七十條第一項"},{"start":10561.471,"end":10581.366,"text":"這個我書面還沒講到我今天早上查到的他就明白講這個月退後金的調整應該依據限職人員的縫級的調整而同一個時間點調整同一個時間點調整第二個就是說他們實際上怎麼調限職人員的薪水怎麼調"},{"start":10582.086,"end":10598.678,"text":"因為他們這個公務人員是不能是可以組公會我這邊修正了 他們可以組公會但他這個公會是比較有限度的公會他是不能罷工也沒有團體的協商權所以德國是怎麼公務人員怎麼加薪他是從公部門的契約禁用人員"},{"start":10599.378,"end":10627.839,"text":"因為契約禁用人員就是約聘約僱這些人那他們是可以組工會而且他們的工會是有談判權的然後是協商的這個那也可以罷工所以發動都是來自契約禁用的公務人員他們的工會去罷工然後就得到一個薪資談判的結論就加薪多少然後就說那麼這些契約禁用人員他們加多少那我們公務人員就加多少那接下來退休人員就加多少是一樣的數字"},{"start":10628.679,"end":10653.067,"text":"他們是因為公認的奉基法跟退休法都有所謂的法律保留原則所以都要經過修法所以你注意看德國動不動就兩三年或者怎麼樣就是在修法這個修法的時候第一個當然就是說比如有關退休金的這個部分第二個部分當然就是寄授整個談判的結果我這個書面上有引述一個最新的資料大家可以上網去看一看"},{"start":10653.727,"end":10680.555,"text":"那第二個就是說他有時候聯邦的這個立法者他會針對特殊的困難的情況比如說這個惡霧戰爭那麼能源的這個短期物價的上漲這個難以承受所以他特別再加一筆這個我們叫做特別的支付就是說這個所以他不是說只有照這個月退休金的調漲他要看需要那麼立法者可以來做一個必要的這個安排這樣子"},{"start":10681.255,"end":10699.107,"text":"那我這邊講完這個德國這個制度以後我特別要再講說我們立委有這樣的主張可以嗎但是我要呼籲說大家看一看今天我們程序部的這個書面意見他的第五點他第五點說限職待遇跟退休所得的本職完全不同"},{"start":10699.907,"end":10717.749,"text":"所以你不能說限職人員薪水調多少你這個月退休金要調多少這樣理解嗎就是說我們這個就是說這個詮釋部有這個意見這個意見是我們國民黨籍立委做這個提案要去嚴正答辯的"},{"start":10718.61,"end":10735.707,"text":"那我也許可以做這個做以下的思考就是說其實我們公務人員這個月退休金事實上是刪的蠻我認為刪的蠻徹底的因為如果說我們是以這個本放乘以二對不對然後在"},{"start":10736.508,"end":10752.839,"text":"再乘以你的服務年資然後再調降 依照調降的比例那麼我們以公務人員32年為例各位可以等一下看看我們黃耀輝教授的他裡面有一些表格數字就是說他最後3到最後是55.5"},{"start":10756.641,"end":10776.15,"text":"可以嗎 就是說它是本縫乘以55.5這個其實就是等於本縫 差不多對不對 理解嗎沒有多少 我跟各位講真的如果說還沒有依照這個物價指數來調整其實這樣沒有有序的依照這個物價指數那這個是很危險的"},{"start":10777.33,"end":10790.331,"text":"那反過來講我們縣子人員他的這個月薪是不錯他年領這個12個月加上這個考積甲等1.5加上年功奉頂到頂者一個月加上不休假獎金0.5所以他是領15個月"},{"start":10791.863,"end":10815.613,"text":"所以各位要知道這個以退休者他不是那麼的強勢他的這個所領的月退休金經過這個刪減之後那你說這個還不隨著一個有序的機制來調升或是說不隨著這個限制人員的調薪來做一個相應的增加那我覺得這個處境是嚴峻的我做以上的報告好 謝謝 謝謝黃教授"},{"start":10821.926,"end":10826.09,"text":"那接下來我們請賴中強召集人賴中強律師請發言"},{"start":10842.964,"end":10859.894,"text":"好 主席各位先進大概在幾天前工商時報有一個報導它是引用美國特許金融分析師協會所發布的全球退休金指數年度報告"},{"start":10860.794,"end":10881.922,"text":"根據這個報告他就48個國家的退休金制度進行評比荷蘭第一 列為A級比較優的還有賓島 丹麥 新加坡 以色列台灣是被列為C級跟中國 日本 南韓 越南 印尼 泰國一起被列為比較差的C級"},{"start":10884.083,"end":10910.601,"text":"所以就是整体评比的话国际评比对我国的退休年金是列在比较差的项目在三项指标中氏族性的得分最低显示退休给付对于保障老年基本生活仍有不足这个报告建议台湾如果要提升评级的话"},{"start":10911.991,"end":10929.101,"text":"可從加強對貧困長者的基本保障以及部分勞工退休金以定期給付形式發放隨壽命延長逐步提高退休年齡以及鼓勵高齡者持續參與勞動市場其中第一項是加強對貧困者"},{"start":10934.984,"end":10957.086,"text":"貧困長者的基本保障那為什麼國際評比會說台灣退休制度的保障老年基本生活仍有不足呢在前一波年改的時候立法院在相關的那個年改的退休法制裡面已經訂下年改的樓地板"},{"start":10957.927,"end":10982.783,"text":"最低保障金額就是年改不管怎麼砍怎麼改那個原則上要保障公務人員委任第一職等本奉最高級職本奉額與該職等一般公務人員專業加給合計數額這個名詞很長那目前就是三萬兩千一百六十元也就是年改不管再怎麼改公教人員原則上"},{"start":10984.264,"end":11012.198,"text":"他所領的年金金額不可以砍到三萬兩千一百六十元以下那會有個問題如果原本領的退休金在年改以前就是三萬兩千一百六十元以下呢照那個法律的規定你低於最低保障金額者那你可以繼續領18%的優惠傳款利率所以我們的公教年改已經保障了公務員最低"},{"start":11013.058,"end":11031.346,"text":"保障金額那為什麼這個國際評比還會說台灣對於保障老年基本生活仍有不足為什麼還會說要加強貧困者貧困長者的基本保障我們看基本保障是什麼"},{"start":11032.97,"end":11060.507,"text":"如果說是基本工資的話2026年起的基本工資是29500如果說是基本生活費的話財政部公布2024年每人基本生活費是一年21萬也就是相當於每月17500台北市2024年的最低生活費是每月19649那我們剛剛看的公教人員的最低"},{"start":11061.427,"end":11079.712,"text":"年改後的樓地板32160元都大於這些數字嗎那為什麼國際評比還說我國對於貧困長者的基本保障不足為什麼國際評比還說台灣對於保障老年基本生活仍有不足呢"},{"start":11080.772,"end":11104.955,"text":"這個答案到底是為什麼呢答案很簡單因為我國的老人不只是退休軍公教我們還有其他老人莫忘世上苦人多這是韓院長的這個就是名言那我們截至2024年底我國有65歲以上的老人大概448萬餘人 接近450萬"},{"start":11107.296,"end":11119.42,"text":"60萬的退休公教人員平均月退休金5萬多這還沒有加公教保的部分最低樓地板32,160元"},{"start":11122.541,"end":11148.84,"text":"但是除了退休公教人員以外勞工的部分 190萬的勞工勞保加勞退平均2萬550萬的農民 老農津貼8110150萬領國民年金的人平均每人每月國民年金只有3996元其中有40萬人依照國民年金的B4計算"},{"start":11149.861,"end":11170.813,"text":"勤領的金額每月只有1044元那你跟軍公教的樓地板三萬兩千筆的話這個實在是差距甚大整理而言截至2024年底我國65歲以上的人口"},{"start":11172.922,"end":11199.727,"text":"裡面448萬 接近450萬人裡面有大約一半 比一半還少一點點212萬5000人每月領的老人跟退休社會給付未達8000元這才是國際評比批評台灣退休制度保障老人基本生活仍有不足因加強對貧困者基本保障的原因"},{"start":11200.967,"end":11219.233,"text":"因此台灣經濟民主聯合主張應該要推動舊住行基礎年金滿65歲的國民原住民滿55歲每月領取各項老年或退休社會給付合計不滿老農津貼8110元之標準者"},{"start":11219.853,"end":11248.194,"text":"由國家補足其差額並納入居住期間與排付條款來回應國際評比對我國退休年金制度的批評這個古人有言不患寡而患不均我們是確實全國有200多萬的老人他的退休金根本領的各種"},{"start":11249.557,"end":11277.04,"text":"退休年金給付各種給付加起來每個月不到八千塊那這個真的是應該是政府應該要優先改善的地方那公教年改要再修先讓全國老人有八千那最後我要引誘當年推動老農年金戴政要委員他已經過世了以前呢"},{"start":11278.291,"end":11302.595,"text":"我們這個國家只有軍公教有退休年金什麼時候非軍公教開始有退休年金必須在台灣民主化後才開始有非軍公教的退休年金當時在推動的包括戴政耀這些很關心農民以及其他國民的"},{"start":11304.571,"end":11316.332,"text":"老人退休 經濟安全保障的人當時戴振耀委員他們在推這個制度的時候就這樣講他說 那個老伯 老兵"},{"start":11318.347,"end":11326.031,"text":"誰不做兵一世人 國家給他一個戰士授權證我們農民做世人 省產省一世人是不是誰不給我們三千塊的老農年金 老農津貼"},{"start":11339.258,"end":11357.226,"text":"現在同樣的我們這個國家每個人都很辛苦老師很辛苦公務員很辛苦但是在我們看到公教人員有三萬二的樓地板保障的時候想一想我們有兩百多萬的"},{"start":11359.262,"end":11384.194,"text":"領國民年金跟勞工年金這些人他們每個月的年金額居然不到八千塊然後國民年金一百五十萬人平均只有四千塊四十萬人國民年金逼市平均只有一千出頭"},{"start":11386.075,"end":11405.773,"text":"這真是悲慘世界是國家要優先解決的問題最後我講一點大家今天都有很多委屈公務員有委屈老師有委屈我不會說這個委屈不存在這些委屈我相信各位講的"},{"start":11407.253,"end":11427.139,"text":"都是真實的不管怎樣都是每個人真實的感受但是現在因為傅坤祺推動財政收支劃分法從中央挖了4000多億結果明年中央政府"},{"start":11430.277,"end":11457.876,"text":"總預算加上特別預算總共舉債4千億這個4千億已經瀕臨公共債務法15%的舉債上限所以我想各位談的問題都重要教育人員如何撥補公務員如何撥補要撥補第一個要讓國家有錢怎麼讓國家有錢就是把富坤級財政收支劃分法"},{"start":11458.436,"end":11474.67,"text":"那個四千多億把它還回來給國家也不是給國家我們就把那些錢拿來做各種社會福利的撥補以及社會福利的興辦這才是這個國家該走的路 謝謝好 謝謝那麼接下來我們請黃耀輝教授發言"},{"start":11489.747,"end":11497.096,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好時間有限 我就有話直說那個PowerPoint"},{"start":11500.903,"end":11520.017,"text":"我今天要講的重點就是公教年改已經造成重大傷害現在應該適可而止了我們對賴政府就希望他不要再雙標只要讓我們的公教退休制度跟勞保 勞退一致就很好了"},{"start":11523.299,"end":11543.754,"text":"107年的公教年改造成了重大傷害從這個畫面各位可以看到它主要是三降第一個降低替代率 十年降15%第二個就廢掉18%第三個就是把退休金的基準把它調降這個三降加上溯及既往"},{"start":11545.415,"end":11558.187,"text":"就是這副表1這是顯示的各位可以看到像這個退休金給予的標準它要就是用那個平均性"},{"start":11559.682,"end":11586.136,"text":"拉低它的平均薪资第二个就是对志愿退休人员从75至改成90至然后第三个就是替代率10年降15%从这个表各位看到它就是这个设计本身就是违反人性为什么呢因为人越老经济上越不安全的时候退休金它就砍得越多所以比如说看这个表的左边这个"},{"start":11587.577,"end":11594.185,"text":"這個左邊 你在65歲的時候退休的時候你的替代率從45%會降到你75歲的時候降到30%75歲你比60歲還要窮 還要弱的時候你的替代率又被降低了"},{"start":11608.622,"end":11617.949,"text":"教育部他自己就在上次年改三讀通過之後教育部在106年6月30號他就根據上述那個三將他去計算了一下對我們教師產生的衝擊這個表各位從這個表第一個就會看到他真的是看到"},{"start":11630.774,"end":11643.164,"text":"建股 重傷老師們扣減至少24%尤其是教授剛退休 像這個表各位可以看到105年2月1號退休的一個老師他任職35年的話"},{"start":11646.827,"end":11667.178,"text":"剛退休兩年 假設他是65歲兩年後他的退休金就被砍了21%到他75歲的時候 他就被砍到了37%教授是這樣子的情形我們再來看另外一個情形假設105年2月1號退休 任職30年的老師"},{"start":11670.768,"end":11693.156,"text":"也是退休才两年他就被砍了21%左右他75岁的时候他被砍了38%将近40%的退休金被砍了所以越老越弱的时候受伤越重10年后更老的时候被砍了到了38%再来看下一个表这也是教育部自己做的"},{"start":11694.281,"end":11697.224,"text":"一個任職25年假設他是105年7月1號退休他退休兩年他就被砍了15%退休10年之後他被砍了36%越老弱的越被砍得更兇更可怕的是這個民國假設一個人一個老老師"},{"start":11715.743,"end":11724.927,"text":"他85年就退休的時候他20年後的107年年改的時候他已經退休22年他是82歲的時候他的退休金突然就被砍了16%82歲一個老人非常需要錢那關財本就被砍了16%然後到他92歲的時候 10年後他的年 他的替代率不是 他的退休金又被再砍了23%所以這個真的是虐殺老人"},{"start":11745.436,"end":11767.211,"text":"我们再来看下一个也是一个很早以前就退休他刚当老师的时候薪资非常微薄所以才有18%然后这个三砍结果受及继往加上替代率递减这个就是违反人性各位可以看到像一个退休22年之后82岁的时候被砍了快20%到他92岁的快要死的时候他那个"},{"start":11772.555,"end":11791.005,"text":"就被砍了36%連遺族要領那個年金幾乎都領不到所以從這個教育部當初自己準備的資料我們就可以看到這個年改確實對公教人員尤其是教授產生很大的衝擊可是有人"},{"start":11794.602,"end":11807.287,"text":"很多那個綠尾 綠眉 還有那個綠嘴老師就在這個上面大做文章老師就說惡意的扭曲然後造成很多民眾無知的誤解認為說公教徒雖然被砍但是你每個月領很多錢勞工跟公教之間有職業不公的問題像剛才那個賴什麼的他就講了一些挑撥離間的話"},{"start":11818.951,"end":11820.792,"text":"他不講說你公務員繳了多少錢我才領這麼多所以我們接下來我就來用勞保跟公教保勞退跟公教退府這兩個制度做一個對比從勞保跟公保的對比各位可以看到左邊的資料"},{"start":11834.881,"end":11847.888,"text":"在保費分擔這部分勞保這部分個人勞工只要出20%雇主出70%政府跟勞工一點關係都沒有都還補助他10%可是公教保"},{"start":11850.029,"end":11855.351,"text":"公務員或老師個人要負擔35%他比勞工負擔28%還要多那作為雇主的政府是個慣老闆他只負擔65%然後我們不知道哪一個笨蛋全區不知道哪一個笨蛋就在我們的公保條例裡面他竟然講說這個政府出的錢叫做政府補助"},{"start":11874.917,"end":11897.294,"text":"難怪人家就說公教人員怎麼那麼後悔政府給你補助搞清楚你政府是雇主你相對於勞工的雇主他要負責70%你政府作為公教人員的雇主你只負責60%你還把他叫做補助所以這是很"},{"start":11898.014,"end":11918.995,"text":"所以請翁兆偉注意一下我們這個條文將來一定要把它改掉否則以後都被那些沒良心沒良知的那些政客就拿出來污衊公教人員然後再看一下投保薪資這部分現在勞保幾十年了他最高投保薪資就是十萬六不到但是"},{"start":11920.39,"end":11944.102,"text":"公教保 那保險人每月薪資他是成績是很高他最高的投保薪資是11萬左右然後那費率又比勞保高所以右邊的公教保他不管是費率 費機他的投保的薪資都比勞保高所以當然他領的幾乎當然就高再來看下一個勞退"},{"start":11953.321,"end":11981.814,"text":"又來問題了 暫停一下技術上的問題OK好 再來看這個勞退跟教師的退伏制度的比較也是一樣的問題左邊勞退是雇主負擔百分之百提拔6%但是我們教師退伏制度還是一樣政府只負擔65%它不是負擔像勞退的100%所以我們的政府佔了很大的便宜作為雇主然後"},{"start":11983.308,"end":12010.499,"text":"然後費積上那個教師的退幅是年功奉的薪額的乘以兩倍這個也相對於一般的勞工的工資更高他費積更高費率也是12到18%比勞退的6%還要高所以而且在給付方面勞退他還有保證收益但是我們教師退幅沒有"},{"start":12011.139,"end":12028.552,"text":"所以年改的這個做法其實是違反了上面講的說退伏基金政府要付最終最後支付保證責任然後就用這個莫名其妙虧損的理由來砍這個就顯然就是很不公平的處理所以我們在這個"},{"start":12030.213,"end":12056.848,"text":"政大風管系 王麗蓮跟黃洪志教授他們就拿公保跟勞工的退休的比較結果就發現說老保投保薪資費率較低所以他退休金給父當然較低真相是什麼呢 相同的投保薪資下老保的一本筆就是說他領回的給付除以他繳的保費是相對的高的各位可以看到上面這個紅色框框的裡面可以看到"},{"start":12057.188,"end":12077.699,"text":"一個勞保 投保薪資相同的他繳的保費可能是24萬左右但他領回的可以領到330萬所以那個投資報酬率或一本筆是14倍然後勞退 公扶退服制度只有不到10倍然後再看下面 另外情境幾下也是一樣勞退勞工的方面他的一本筆都是比"},{"start":12083.257,"end":12106.388,"text":"公教高而且年改之後公教的一本筆降得更多了所以從這些數字時間有限我就沒辦法詳細說明從這邊我們可以看到就是勞工務人員不管他從什麼角度來看他在職業部工方面是對勞工有利對公教人員是不利的然後我們再來看下面這個"},{"start":12111.944,"end":12123.033,"text":"所以這個圖給大家看到老保的財務缺口是非常的嚴重是我們公教的好幾倍而且年改之後公教的財務缺口已經明顯的下降然後老保"},{"start":12124.402,"end":12129.766,"text":"這幾年七年八年多沒有改革就造成了我們這個勞保這個錢償債務從過去三年就暴增了三兆已經到了13.6兆撥補了3871支延後破產到民國120年而已所以最後的結果我們可以看到勞保財務問題不但嚴重而且它世代不均它內部的世代不均問題更嚴重希望張理事長知道"},{"start":12149.801,"end":12175.676,"text":"特別注意一下像勞保你們很在乎的世代不久是在勞保的體系裡面更嚴重其實你在這方面也都發生然後結果就是什麼最需要改革的是勞保年金但是叫完破產公交財富大搞年改喊到建股叫完破產的勞保體系完全沒有改革所以你看到最後這個表就看到勞保120年就要破產了其他的所有的"},{"start":12176.776,"end":12181.298,"text":"退伏制度都是幾十年後才會破產難道現在要幫公教人員停砍替代率這有什麼不對所以最後"},{"start":12194.065,"end":12218.056,"text":"我提出幾點建議第一個就是我們的何沛山前勞動部長他就講政府撥補勞保負最終支付責任就是改革我們的教育部跟權序部你們不是來服務公教人員你們是幫賴政府幫民進黨政府去砍這個公教人員的福利這是什麼道理"},{"start":12218.576,"end":12243.507,"text":"你為什麼不幫公教人員澄清說你們是受到很多的誤會跟扭曲然後對於我們立法委員提出來的所謂停侃替代率這個部分你不但不講話你們還倒過來助紂為虐去說我們公教人員貪得無怨請你教育部"},{"start":12244.527,"end":12265.331,"text":"跟全序部請你們不要再得骨質疏鬆症這個要趕快去做改善不要那麼沒骨氣第二個就是替代率從113年起就應該做起了因為剛剛講過他就是違反人性的設計重傷越老越弱的公教人員然後再來就是綠委他很會誣蔑我們公教"},{"start":12269.352,"end":12289.904,"text":"現在真相他就講說我們這次要停侃年金會造成財政破產我用這個簡單的數字來看115年的中央政府最初的正式別的預算退幅給付支出只佔中央政府總支出的6%你的社會保險尤其是勞保就佔了20%國防支出佔了18%上面這兩個才是造成政府會破產的重大因素"},{"start":12297.228,"end":12320.103,"text":"輪不到我們公教委員那造成財政破產再看下面 我們賴總統最近老是對美國表態說要把我們國防編到GDP的5%照明年的GDP來算的話就是明年要編國防支出1.43兆在明年中央政府總預算的一半您給外邦不予加奴這是什麼心態"},{"start":12321.365,"end":12337.64,"text":"我們只要減少公教人員的福利的受損你寧可把錢送到國外二話都不說真正會造成破產的是你賴政府花錢無度把錢送到國外最後一點就是對 是麻煩請黃教授最後"},{"start":12339.301,"end":12341.384,"text":"最後一點就是物價上漲調整的部分我建議參考我們所得稅法所有的免稅和扣除額就是累積上漲多少你就調整多少就這樣子不要去搞那些GGY的數字什麼看國家經濟狀況 財政狀況"},{"start":12355.684,"end":12364.13,"text":"碰到我們這些沒骨氣的公務員全序部 教育部到時候過去就是這樣子那個物價上漲了10.3%年改以來物價上漲10.3%只調漲了這個退休給付6%就讓物價吃掉我們這個公教人員的退休金4.3%然後再把替代率加上去扣減的部分這個公教人員真的受傷得非常嚴重所以拜託我們這個翁委員或是藍白立院的黨團一起把這個"},{"start":12385.745,"end":12399.606,"text":"非常不合人性的這個退伏制度做一個很重大的改革 謝謝好 謝謝黃教授 語重心長好 那現在我們請賀承宏教授發言"},{"start":12411.896,"end":12440.621,"text":"主席好 各位委員好政府各位代表還有各位夥伴大家好 大家午安大家都知道跟這個機場陸路過不去是錯誤的請大家稍微包涵我今天是從一個在高等教育長期服務第一線觀察討論高等教育和高科技產業對於這個問題所受到的影響和看法修復人才競爭力其實我們需要"},{"start":12442.955,"end":12460.451,"text":"一個聰明的策略歷來談論人才策略做法很多我們如何從中間找到一個最聰明的這個是比較務實的我是應該對哪裡按還看前面但是我應該對哪裡按"},{"start":12464.928,"end":12481.665,"text":"人才是台灣唯一的競爭力我想這個不分藍綠應該是台灣的共識人才如果強台灣強人才弱台灣一定弱因為台灣並沒有顯著的有形的資源人才是台灣幾乎唯一可靠永續的資源"},{"start":12485.166,"end":12499.399,"text":"2019年這個問題在八年前就產業領袖有十幾位包括施政榮 鄭崇華 史青泰盧志願 林本堅 蔣尚義等等他們推出一個科研與高教革新方案"},{"start":12500.768,"end":12516.753,"text":"其中有幾個做法特別值得注意的是他們明確的提到主張設計高教教育人才特殊的年金點出了這件問題對於人才策略的關鍵重要性"},{"start":12519.048,"end":12544.414,"text":"在三年前國立大學校園協會大概50所國內所有的國立大學校園協會經過廣泛的討論也提出來提升高等教育國際競爭力最重要的要先修復大學教師的退休金何以見得為什麼產學界都對這件事情不約而同的有類似的共同的見解"},{"start":12545.41,"end":12571.87,"text":"因為大家都看到大學教師是一個特殊的族群他是國際爭取的流動資產一個國家可能會有優秀的軍事人才 政治人才但是不論是多傑出的將領 部長 官員都不可能被另外一個國家邀請去做將領 部長 官員但是大學教授是完全可能而且是經常在不斷的進行"},{"start":12574.594,"end":12603.626,"text":"特別是今天是知識經濟的時代它的生產要素的重要性已經逐漸超越資金和土地等等知識經濟的核心在大學因為大學是知識的遊景 知識的源泉創造新的知識 傳遞原有的知識這些人的核心是大學教授它的重要性在知識經濟是與日俱增也是國際在增強的重要資本"},{"start":12605.543,"end":12625.357,"text":"但是台灣的大學教授薪資大家都很清楚跟國際落差兩到四倍跟我們最近的香港呢他們領的一樣的數字但是港幣所以這是一個需要守護和吸引的流動資產是國家重要的人力資本"},{"start":12627.333,"end":12655.962,"text":"爭取師資之道大家都說築巢引鳳如何築巢呢人才的待遇就是這個築巢的核心我舉一個大家最熟知的世界最著名的科學家愛因斯坦他在醫生當中主要的專任工作移動過四次左右從瑞士 捷克 德國 美國蘇黎世聯邦理工學院柏林大學 普林斯頓"},{"start":12657.706,"end":12685.565,"text":"這些的確都是因為這些大學提供了好的潮讓愛因斯坦心動我也可以向各位報告今年諾貝爾獎的十二位得主做一個統計他們平均每一位都移動了1.3次左右只有少部分幾位中期醫生沒有更換過大學其他幾位都移動過甚至三次以上"},{"start":12687.011,"end":12713.023,"text":"大學對於爭取人才的確是承受巨大的壓力但是也充滿了機會人才待遇是什麼意思呢其實最主要的部分就是第一個薪資它是我把它稱為前段退休金是後段如同半導體的製程有前段有後段這個要整體來看任何一個成熟的人才他在考慮"},{"start":12715.083,"end":12732.25,"text":"工作待遇的時候絕對是整體的待遇來看的台灣的前段是很弱勢的那台灣的優勢在哪裡聰明的策略在這裡呈現它創造了後段的優勢"},{"start":12734.446,"end":12744.927,"text":"過去的成功經驗一樣是在前段不足後段較強的條件之下我們回顧80 90年代也是就是距今差不多40多年前"},{"start":12746.574,"end":12775.276,"text":"現在台灣跟美國教授的平均薪資落差三到四倍在那個時代依然如此並沒有更加的緩和但是台灣現在各大學的主力師資數千名差不多都是80到90年代那20年間大量回國所形成的這幾千名的師資培育了台灣30年來高科技產業的骨幹"},{"start":12777.03,"end":12802.28,"text":"護國神山裡面成千上萬的大小神仙都是這20年大學延攬的師資所培育的成果台積電90%以上的經理以上都是這個時期國內大學所培養的人才兩個比較代表性的例子台積電Arizona的CEO是80年代末期大學畢業生"},{"start":12804.161,"end":12829.029,"text":"大立光多年的技術長是90年代初期的學士班和碩士班做個廣告這兩位都是清華畢業生這個策略為什麼會成功一樣的薪資落差為什麼四五十年前仍然可以吸引幾千名學人回國呢人才裡面有兩種有一種會追逐"},{"start":12830.754,"end":12855.151,"text":"短期的高薪有一種會看重長期的穩定加上老年的保障越是有遠見 越聰明的人才他絕不會只看眼前他一定會看到人生的最後這是人才為什麼會因為老年的保障 長期的穩定而超越了年輕時候高薪的考慮做的選擇"},{"start":12857.253,"end":12882.487,"text":"同時如果有一個機制能夠讓這些人一旦入朝五年十年就讓他不再離朝那這個機制就很厲害後段的優勢的機制簡單的來說第一個部分就是延遲給付這是文言文白話文就是說把前段的薪資呢挪到他退休以後再給他"},{"start":12885.038,"end":12903.227,"text":"如果我們比較公立大學教師薪資如果我們要做最低限度一倍的落差補足以台灣15000到19000名公立大學師資來說至少需要每年150億以上的預算這個顯然是做不到的事情"},{"start":12904.793,"end":12919.845,"text":"但是如果我們修復公立大學教室的退休金以過去的數字來看不到40億就可以實現而第二種做法在過去80年代到90年代證明它有相當的成效第一種做法到現在遙遙無期"},{"start":12923.479,"end":12945.067,"text":"而這個原因是因為落差這麼大的原因因為使用退休金特別是月退休金的公立大學教師人數大約只有一萬人就從他退休之後到他離世而公立大學在職的人數呢剛才說一萬五千到一萬九千人所以事實上有很多人在中間"},{"start":12946.656,"end":12975.454,"text":"掉對了 脫對了他就不再加入這個退休金的給付行列第二個事情是我們在退休金修復金額的部分只有幾萬元相對於薪資如果要大幅提升必須要產生十萬元左右這種數量級這個兩者共同造成了效益上面的差別所以政府的財政負擔在這兩種選擇之下你可以看得出來哪一個是聰明的做法"},{"start":12976.772,"end":12995.138,"text":"後段的優勢 它隱藏的機制還有叫做履約獎勵在香港你可以看見通常五年一聘在五年期滿的時候它會再給予一個明顯的履約獎勵因此如果你做到三年 四年你會自然地做到五年"},{"start":12996.55,"end":13020.288,"text":"那台湾是什么意思呢我们的退休金等于是一个20年的履约奖励你一旦做了10年15年之后你不会再离开了因为你再离开实在是很愚笨的因此人才久任教学凡是教过书的都知道教学的经验非常重要研究的经验非常重要"},{"start":13022.352,"end":13048.232,"text":"因此前後段的效益比較從財務上面來看剛才我們看到是每年相距100億以上而產生的效果前者不確定後者已經證明有效過去的成功經驗的確創造了30年來高效益的高教以及護國高科技產業有沒有其他拼前段薪資的策略"},{"start":13049.502,"end":13064.019,"text":"教育部很努力提出了一些包括全面加薪學術加給等等這些在整體薪資裡面大概都只有幾個Percent績效不清楚不知道有多少人才因此而被吸引彈性薪資有比較顯著"},{"start":13065.581,"end":13085.486,"text":"少部分的教師得到但是它不是一個長期的solution因為彈性薪資的預算來自於特別預算特別預算是曾經的確中斷停止過的所以人才不會因為某些時刻存在的彈性薪資而受吸引他要看到的是長期的薪資的結構性的承諾"},{"start":13087.646,"end":13111.668,"text":"高新的專案玉山學者它的確一口氣拉到國際水準但是它的數量非常少而且大家可以看到大樹根深很難移動通常都只有短期的分時的停留局部強化頂尖但是很少看見能夠久任因為滿了三年六年之後就難以為繼台灣的策略是什麼"},{"start":13112.717,"end":13138.193,"text":"显然应该要前后段搭配长短互补绝对不能放弃一边最后我们做一个结语大学的人才策略它不是只关乎大学甚至一部分退休人之后的生活问题它是有关于高科技产业兴衰有关于国家永续的国际性的人才流动的问题"},{"start":13140.259,"end":13163.738,"text":"事實上高教的人才已經被國際武器化他成為國家的戰略資源如果國家不做一個重要的選擇跟部署而且在有限的財力之下我們要用在國防 要用在社福 要用在軍艦 要用在醫療怎麼樣選擇一個聰明的策略做最有效益的戰略部署這個才是今天議題的核心"},{"start":13166.969,"end":13182.836,"text":"過去的經驗證明前段輕後段加重是CP值最高的策略常常覺得人類的愚昧是來自於對歷史的遺忘和健忘最後 最後一張"},{"start":13185.235,"end":13201.412,"text":"2017年7月11日應該就是在年改的前後幾位大學校長曾經和政府最高層領導人見面討論這個問題這位最高領導人說大學教授是年金改革的犧牲品這幾個字沒有改造"},{"start":13203.393,"end":13219.076,"text":"我想在當時政府要推事關幾千億的年金改革把事涉及到幾十億的大學教師退休金如同花草一般殘平可能有它的苦衷但是在今天新的國際政治經濟的局勢之下"},{"start":13220.337,"end":13242.033,"text":"應該要用大格局重新來省事這個問題在大學人才枯竭之後產業與國家一定跟著萎縮現在我們要做的就是修復被產掉的人才競爭力以上謝謝大家非常謝謝賀成校長接下來我們請今天的張綺楷張委員做公聽會的發言"},{"start":13259.792,"end":13285.751,"text":"謝謝小玲辦了這麼好的公聽會也謝謝這麼多專家寫者提供了這麼深刻的這個建議我今天要提出兩個水庫三個解決方案兩個水庫就是在2017年那時候為什麼要犧牲我們的軍工價要砍退休金因為他們說大水庫國家財政有困難第二個小水庫退府基金的錢不夠現在這兩個問題都解決了"},{"start":13290.205,"end":13318.771,"text":"我們的最近幾年的財政良好過去五年我們的稅收超增了兩兆在2017年推動年金改革的時候國家財政確實是困難的可是那時候的中央政府總預算的規模兩兆出頭現在我們快速膨脹到三兆了我們現在是一個有錢的國家不應該再犧牲我們的金工教人員第二個"},{"start":13319.835,"end":13344.75,"text":"小水庫以前的經營績效確實也不好以前大概2% 3%有時候還是負的大家知道嗎最近幾年 最近5年退府基金這個小水庫經營績效變好了過去5年平均超過9%你現在去看看那個小水庫裡面的這個水位105年它裡面的錢是5785億今年我剛去看了一下"},{"start":13349.401,"end":13373.283,"text":"1兆810億水位整整成長了快一倍所以國家財政變好了退伍基金的這個經營績效也變好了我覺得不應該再對不起我們的金工教人員犧牲也過多了好 接下來我要提出三個具體的解決方案"},{"start":13374.465,"end":13388.357,"text":"第一個 尊重當初的主管機關提出的改革方案那時候的主管機關是考試院我的恩師我台大政治系研究所的恩師黃警長 黃老師在現場"},{"start":13389.861,"end":13408.096,"text":"他是那時候的考試委員當初考試院跟全系部提出的改革方案是從所得替代率的80%開始每一年砍1%就到70%的時候會停然後講這個已經很嚴重了你一開始就被砍了20%後來每一年還要砍1%現在更嚴重是什麼"},{"start":13409.465,"end":13436.101,"text":"民進黨那時候殺紅了眼砍到刀刀劍骨他把80%又降到75多砍一開始就多了5%了而且把本來每一年的1.5砍成1.5所以大家可以算一下我們今年已經是年改的第7年了年改的第7年了5%多了5%再加6乘以5 9%我們已經被砍了14%了如果再加前面的20%"},{"start":13438.308,"end":13457.994,"text":"已經砍了34%了非常嚴重那回到考試院原來的版本他從八成每一年只有砍1%應該到70%就要停了大家很明顯的看得出來當初民進黨砍得太兇了你說尊重主管機關考試院的版本事實上也是蔡英文臨改會議的結論"},{"start":13460.782,"end":13484.204,"text":"尊重專業的話現在已經砍過頭了所以應該回過頭去尊重是不是要慎重考慮 填砍這是第一個解決方案第二個方案更簡單就比在勞工同樣在這個地方每次我在質詢每次有勞動部的部長來勞動部說撥補就是改革他們有三個地方我記得清空教應該都一樣"},{"start":13486.122,"end":13494.613,"text":"勞工沒有砍 到現在沒有砍 對不對第二個更重要的 他撥補很多最近這7年已經撥補超過5000億了今年撥補1100億 上個禮拜喔特別預算又多了100億 對不對"},{"start":13503.342,"end":13530.68,"text":"第三個更重要的 每次勞動部長都講啊我們不會破產 因為政府一定會負責到底只要跟對我們的公教人員對我們的這個教育人員請教育部間在場的同仁 權序部在場的同仁跟勞動部部長都學一點撥補就是改革 不只不要再砍該撥補的要撥補 而且要抬頭挺胸我們保障公教人員不會破產 政府負最大責任第三個解決方案 問他錢哪邊來"},{"start":13532.726,"end":13558.391,"text":"減少浪費啊我們的政府現在是歷年來114年最有錢的中央政府一年有三兆的預算可是浪費非常的多我講最近幾個案子光是上個禮拜通過的特別預算出現什麼國防部說國防部說編那個編那個長效的飲用水一瓶水120塊錢一共編了8億要去買水我們民眾黨說哇這個太離譜了"},{"start":13562.844,"end":13580.375,"text":"我們說砍2億後來國安部長自己講抱歉抱歉我們之前沒有房價我們自己砍4億4億就省下來了可以給公教人員給警校給軍公教說聯合作戰中心桌椅什麼設備要整修一張桌子250萬一張椅子5萬塊錢那是空間還是防彈"},{"start":13587.804,"end":13607.519,"text":"後來國防部連部長自己都拍謝他吃太多了國防部的錢一下子編太多了自己都吐出來了這個錢也都四處都砍了所以光是去上個禮拜通過這個三讀預算國防部編的預算裡面就省了51下來這51就可以給軍公教給公教人員為什麼會說他們的錢不夠"},{"start":13609.912,"end":13632.755,"text":"另外你看光電板弊案那麼多浪費那麼多錢 弊案那麼多還發生槍擊案那個錢只要整下來 錢怎麼會不夠呢所以我今天提出了三個解決方案另外我做幾個簡單的提醒我們現在公教之前坎德泰雄這個事情已經發生了後遺症了我們的公教我給大家看一下這個圖"},{"start":13634.454,"end":13653.884,"text":"我去統計了106年到113年各項公務員考試來報考的人大家知道多嚴重嗎大家看這個圖106年 就是年金改革之前一年來報考公務人員的47萬到了年金改革完之後到了去年113剩下29萬少了17萬"},{"start":13659.246,"end":13679.651,"text":"公務員是這樣子這不只傷害公務員的品質傷害也是國家 傷害是我們全民再來看教育 右邊這個你看那個像一個剖頭多嚴重在107年年金改革的時候你如果拿到教師證的你會進到這個職場去當老師的70%到了111年已經那個抖到什麼地方剩下57"},{"start":13687.935,"end":13713.294,"text":"就是你已經拿到老師的這個資格你都不一定再去教書了那不只傷害到老師啊 傷害到學生 對不對所以他後遺症已經出現了嘛傷害到公務員 傷害到老師也傷害到學生 傷害到整個社會了這個後遺症非常嚴重我們要趕快去補破網 把它補起來另外今天全系部在現場 我要提醒一下今年1月份的時候我在這邊大罵全系部部長說你是八十八點"},{"start":13715.438,"end":13743.384,"text":"因為他每次精算報告都亂搞他竟然那天對著全國的民眾講說退休的這個警消人員有八成領的錢平均起來是七萬六千塊錢我問你對手眼睛看到這個後來真相是什麼可以領到七萬六的不到千分之一一千個不到一個那今天讓我生氣的今天全市部的報告要怎麼下來你為什麼要去強調"},{"start":13746.836,"end":13771.358,"text":"約有31%的退休人員超過5萬5你應該是對那個一般可能領的更少人家去講啊你這個報告不是自拿嘴巴嗎你講31%你為什麼不講69%的呢你到底要凸顯什麼所以我剛在講第一個你們學一學人家勞動部好不好去爭取公務員跟教師應該有這個權利好不好我拜託一下請教育部的人員跟全系部抬頭挺胸"},{"start":13772.239,"end":13793.534,"text":"好 捍衛自己該有的權益最後我做一個很重要的提議事實上年金改革這是急著要再處理的是因為當初在年金改革的時候沒有算到高齡的CPI物價指數這個事情所以我們在1120的8月份開始要求高齡超過65歲的CPI是要我給大家看一下大家看一下一般的家庭是左邊這個"},{"start":13796.487,"end":13821.585,"text":"從 你看 從108年到113年如果算一般的家庭成長多少 9.91可是如果是高齡的高齡的這個很多長輩 因為退下來嘛可能醫療要很多啊 對不對他是多少 11.39結果他年紀越長越沒有錢所以這個是迫切的改革所以我做一個結論我們今天談的不是一個冰冷的數據"},{"start":13823.99,"end":13847.307,"text":"我們希望給我們的公教人員一個有尊嚴有保障的晚年因為我們肯定他們一輩子對我們國家的這個貢獻那今天我也提出三個解決方案好不好請大家好好去看一下減少浪費尊重主管機關而且只要像在照顧勞工一樣來照顧我們的公教人員所有問題都可以解決好 我們一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":13850.367,"end":13874.601,"text":"好 謝謝張綺凱委員那麼接下來我們就請因為所有的專家學者及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們接著就請政府機關代表發言那麼並請就所送書面資料以外的部分就做補充的說明那麼我們接下來會請教育部跟權序部的機關代表進行說明那其他的機關代表就是因為可以提供書面"},{"start":13875.117,"end":13887.107,"text":"的說明所以我們就不再請各位做現場的說明那麼接下來我們就請教育部次長請好 謝謝 請朱次長發言發言時間五分鐘為限 謝謝"},{"start":13901.244,"end":13922.562,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好今天奉邀列席過委員會召開公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例以下簡稱退伍條例部分條文修正草案公聽會僅針對所列的討論提綱就公立學校教職員部分提出說明 敬請參考"},{"start":13923.803,"end":13950.738,"text":"第一个讨论提纲一有关退福条例第三条修法之必要性合理性调降时机及财务影响部分目前退福条例相关制度吸引过去教职员退休制度存有月退休金起至的年龄偏低退休所得替代率过高以及退休金准备不足等问题原本于兼顾退休人员的权益以及社会整体资源的公平分配原则"},{"start":13953.158,"end":13978.764,"text":"審慎來規劃改革的方向來釐定合理的退休所的替代率倘退休所的替代率至113年1月1日起或至114年後停止逐年的調降教職員部分將使未來50年年改節省的經費挹注到退伍基金減少約1652億元導致退伍基金用盡的年度會在提前3到4年"},{"start":13979.564,"end":13997.313,"text":"對於基金的財務安全產生衝擊又目前已定有配合消費者物價指數而啟動的月退休金調整機制調整後的金額亦不受退休所的替代率上限的一個限制且現行的規定約有85"},{"start":14000.054,"end":14026.988,"text":"20%的退休教师实领的月退休金额所得超过5万元平均月资领所得约5.8万元原现行制度应足以适足地去保障退休生活第二 讨论提纲二有关月退休金调整机制之修法必要性调整条件及幅度等议题部分应退休给予调整需考量退休所得整体的合理性"},{"start":14028.289,"end":14046.328,"text":"與現值待遇之間的橫評及合理差距以及退伍基金財務安全及政府財政等因素不宜禁以消費者物價指數之累計成長率為調整比例或制定公式來調整又107年迄今已兩度調整月退休金"},{"start":14047.009,"end":14062.926,"text":"合計調整6%現行的制度應可提供適足的保障第三 討論提案3有關公教人員月退休金的逐年調減法案對公教人力的結構 攬裁的影響部分"},{"start":14064.605,"end":14092.583,"text":"教師年齡的變化趨勢涉底的層面廣泛並非退休制度單一原因造成為勞動年齡的提高為國家整體人口結構朝向高齡化及少子女化趨勢所致並非教育現場獨有的現象配合國家整體年金制度以及因應各職域面臨勞動力老化等問題教育部亦對於公立學校的教職員退休制度有相關調整的規定"},{"start":14093.784,"end":14108.891,"text":"調整的規劃對於高中以下教師辦理自願退休月退休金期之年齡已經與其他的教育人員做出適當的區隔又為了促進攬財本部以積極精進待遇相關檢討的措施針對"},{"start":14110.552,"end":14126.928,"text":"公立大專校院自107年起推動玉山計畫加碼彈性薪資以及提高教授的學術佳績10%等相關措施賦予113年將助理教授以上教師的學術研究費佳績調整15%"},{"start":14129.991,"end":14151.871,"text":"並再次擴大教師彈性性質的適用對象及補助額度等措施在高中以下的學校部分除了配合行政院通案調整軍公教人員待遇調整其心腸性質之外亦配合擴大支領特殊教育職務加級的對象以及調整知己的一個數額"},{"start":14153.012,"end":14164.856,"text":"未來教育部也會持續的精進公立學校教師限職新常性薪資的合理性跟調整的事項以上報告 近期各位委員及與會先進不吝指導 謝謝好 謝謝次長的報告我還是很希望次長能夠像是勞動部一樣保護多多維護我們教育人員的權益謝謝次長接下來我們請權敘部"},{"start":14184.137,"end":14185.989,"text":"退伏式市長鄭淑芬市長報告"},{"start":14196.338,"end":14222.784,"text":"趙吉仁還有與會的老師團體學者專家還有我們與會的機關代表大家好我就是剛剛董老師提到的那一位師長雖然因為今天剛好部裡面有有一個那個考試院的院會然後黃衛原之前是我們的考試院他應該知道所以部長今天真的沒辦法抽身過來"},{"start":14223.908,"end":14241.804,"text":"那為何我今天會在這裡呢其實剛剛今天我坐在底下一直聽到大家提到全序部這三個字我真的有一點坐如針氈但是我也要用我個人的經歷來跟大家分享這一路走來年輕改革的過程我想我來表達這個過程應該是會很貼切事實的"},{"start":14248.496,"end":14276.155,"text":"因為我在權需部已經工作26年這26年當中我有25年都是在我們退伏式工作我從事的都是退伏的業務這期間我經歷了大大小小的制度調整尤其是107年的改革是從頭參與到尾到法案的上路這樣子然後執行所以我的心情是一個什麼我是一個被改革者"},{"start":14277.321,"end":14300.606,"text":"我也是一個制度的執行者今天大家所提的對全區部的期待我都聽見了我真的聽見了那我首先也要就這個心情跟大家報告說以一個我們在部裡面長期累積下來工作的一個文官的人來說第一個我可能要聲明我們不會拿不實的資料不會拿不實的資料第二個我們從來也不會要污衊自己公務人員"},{"start":14306.206,"end":14328.21,"text":"我們也不會說這是貪得無厭的事情這絕對不是這樣的還有剛剛老師也有指正 全序部是笨蛋我聽了其實覺得其實一個工人要一路走到像我這樣子我覺得是很不容易因為像我們也是農家出身的人"},{"start":14328.837,"end":14345.929,"text":"然後沒有顯赫的學歷我沒有顯赫的家世背景我只是一路保持一個熱忱每天從中壢開車開一兩個小時到布里上班20年如一日很多人問我為什麼可以在這樣的工作不斷的可以去面對我只是保持一個工作熱情而已"},{"start":14346.684,"end":14350.386,"text":"然後呢一路因為我接觸到的退伍制度我們也知道我們需要讓制度有一個很好的未來所以才會有這些改革那在這裡我也想要先告訴大家說我希望我們之後在這一次後面的改革部裡面的想法雖然我們還是認為一定要繼續維持因為"},{"start":14367.711,"end":14391.645,"text":"我們的初衷理念是要讓基金能夠長遠那我們現在的人還沒退的也知道有一個基金在那裡它財務是穩固的我相信這個對我們也是一個提升士氣的地方所以這一次很開心的是大家沒有說我要回復年改的錢的樣子這是我們最安慰的一件事那委員們也可以"},{"start":14392.525,"end":14415.334,"text":"剛剛有委員提到我們後面就是要理性的來討論這些我們都願意那後面在資料呈現的部分剛剛委員有指教了我們一定核實呈現全貌讓大家一起來看這是技術上我覺得我們一定可以做到這樣那今天聽完了書面資料我就不多說了就是幾個點我可能跟大家一起報告一下大家很關注的這個撥補"},{"start":14418.224,"end":14442.627,"text":"撥補我們早在退補基金建制的時候就已經立法在基金管理條例第八條早就有撥補早就有撥補責任那過去為什麼面對撥補沒有用這個方式呢因為條例裡面有講是先調整提撥費率所以提撥費率我們也調了那撥補這件事情呢我們在法裡面"},{"start":14443.496,"end":14471.068,"text":"在這一次配合新人薪資大家都知道已經落實了在法裡面它是分兩個階段撥補的第一個階段先把新人不參加基金以後的這個缺口把它彌平所以這個也是剛剛有很多團體也希望我們一定要堅持我們真的有一直在爭取就是要用10年撥補的方案我們每一年概算都是用10年撥補的方案但是當然行政院他在他的考量裡面他"},{"start":14472.088,"end":14493.82,"text":"必須有斟酌國家財力這個我們一定一直會用十年撥補的方案而且希望這第一階段趕快把它撥補完畢之後能夠進入第二階段也就是我們剛剛很關注的我們原來就有了缺口我們原來就有了缺口是為什麼會有是因為我們一開始真的在基金設計是沒有足夠提撥的沒有足夠提撥那這個不足夠提撥的洞是很大"},{"start":14500.584,"end":14512.847,"text":"那這個一定要循序漸進來撥那這個部分我們一定也會看之後如果第一階段能完成第二階段我們也會建議財主機關能夠合時的來撥補那這個是撥補的部分那其他的像隨CPI調整這些確實最近大家都對這個很關注那我們部裡面的立場只是想因為畢竟這個CPI調整"},{"start":14529.505,"end":14544.51,"text":"在我們國內各個領域執域都是先採5%的那假設真的要調整我們也希望要做一次性的譬如說我們自己主管的公保他就是用也是用5%那我如果退休金先調了我公保這些都要聯動考慮的這些都要聯動考慮所以這個都可以調大家可以來就這個部分了"},{"start":14550.25,"end":14565.406,"text":"在做深入的討論那之後呢我們希望在主條的時候都可以大家真的理性然後好好的看待這個制度我們最重的目的以我當市長的角度來講我們真的只是為了要守護這個制度而已謝謝"},{"start":14569.265,"end":14587.211,"text":"非常謝謝司長的發言今天司長的發言讓我對退伏司全區部退伏司又有另外一個看法跟您的發言比全區部部長要來得更負責任而且更能夠還原真實那麼由此可見其實退伏基金當時在一開始設置的時候"},{"start":14589.512,"end":14613.3,"text":"沒有考慮到就是他一開始其實就有提撥不足額的這樣的一個困境那麼一直持續到現在我們政府其實每年都沒有提撥足額而這個問題看起來也不是跟考試院跟權序部有關更重要的主要是在於行政院的決定行政院他不負責任他作為公務人員的一個雇主他就是個壞老闆他不願意把這個該貼補該撥補的這個錢"},{"start":14616.141,"end":14626.834,"text":"然後逐年的到位所以以至於造成現在退伏基金的這樣一個虧損所以我希望就考試院可以拿出你們的勇氣你們作為憲政的權力機關你們應該要去跟行政院抗議必須要依照"},{"start":14633.749,"end":14649.537,"text":"考試院 詮釋部等等的已經要依法做足的撥補這樣才是正本清源之道因為所有的機關代表都已經發言完畢那其餘的列席機關的各機關代表還有沒有需要做補充說明的"},{"start":14650.902,"end":14676.842,"text":"好如果沒有補充說明的話那麼今天公聽會的發言就到此告一段落感謝所有與會者可以從不同的面向不同角度提供諸多寶貴的意見那今天各位所有的發言內容以及書面意見以及委員莊瑞雄委員所提出的書面資料都會列入記錄並且刊登公報之後會製作成為公聽會的報告送交本院"},{"start":14677.563,"end":14694.525,"text":"全體委員以及本日初列席的人員參考那麼本次的公聽會就到此結束再次感謝各位專家學者的歷齡還有感謝次長還有感謝司長以及各位機關成員的代表那麼我們今天的這個公聽會就圓滿結束在此謝謝大家好 散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2025101636","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）"}},{"id":"164697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d34484a89c2b95600b8145a59dfde0be428b7bf11cd0d9a0f43b1f0242bc217b355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:19:01 - 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3%有時候還是負的大家知道嗎最近幾年 最近5年退府基金這個小水庫經營績效變好了過去5年平均超過9%你現在去看看那個小水庫裡面的這個這個水位啊105年它裡面的錢是5785億今年呢 我剛剛去看了一下"},{"start":97.439,"end":121.301,"text":"1兆810億水位整整成長了快一倍所以國家財政變好了退伍基金的這個經營績效也變好了我覺得不應該再對不起我們的金工教人員犧牲也過多了好 接下來我要提出三個具體的解決方案"},{"start":122.486,"end":136.392,"text":"第一個 尊重當初的主管機關提出的改革方案那時候的主管機關是考試院我的恩師我台大政治系研究所的恩師黃警長黃老師在現場"},{"start":137.898,"end":156.134,"text":"他是那時候的考試委員當初考試院跟全系部提出的改革方案是從所得替代率的80%開始每一年砍1%就到70%的時候會停然後講這個已經很嚴重了你一開始就被砍了20%後來每一年還要砍1%現在更嚴重是什麼"},{"start":157.503,"end":184.138,"text":"民進黨那時候殺紅了眼砍到刀刀劍骨他把80%又降到75多砍 一開始就多了5%了而且把本來每一年的1.5砍成1.5所以大家可以算一下我們今年已經是年改的第7年了年改的第7年了多了5%再加6乘以5 9%我們已經被砍了14%了如果再加前面的20%"},{"start":186.345,"end":206.032,"text":"已經砍了34%了非常嚴重那回到考試院原來的版本他從八成每一年只有砍1%應該到70%就要停了大家很明顯的看得出來當初民進黨砍得太兇了你說尊重主管機關考試院的版本事實上也是蔡英文臨改會議的結論"},{"start":208.803,"end":232.236,"text":"尊重專業的話現在已經砍過頭了所以應該回過頭去尊重是不是要慎重考慮 填砍這是第一個解決方案第二個方案更簡單就比較勞工同樣在這個地方每次我在質詢每次有勞動部的部長來勞動部說撥補就是改革他們有三個地方我記得清空教應該都一樣"},{"start":234.159,"end":242.609,"text":"勞工沒有砍 到現在沒有砍 對不對第二個更重要的 他撥補很多最近這7年已經撥補超過5000億了今年撥補1100億 上個禮拜喔特別預算又多了100億 對不對"},{"start":251.363,"end":278.603,"text":"第三個更重要的 每次勞動部長都講啊我們不會破產 因為政府一定會負責到底只要跟對我們的公教人員 對我們的這個教育人員請教育部間在場的同仁 權序部在場的同仁跟勞動部部長都學一點撥補就是改革 不只不要再砍 該撥補的要撥補而且要抬頭挺胸 我們保障公教人員不會破產 政府負最大責任第三個解決方案 問他錢哪邊來"},{"start":280.763,"end":306.428,"text":"減少浪費啊我們的政府現在是歷年來114年最有錢的中央政府一年有三兆的預算可是浪費非常的多我講最近幾個案子光是上個禮拜通過的特別預算出現什麼國防部說國防部說編那個編那個長效的飲用水一瓶水120塊錢一共編了8億要去買水我們民眾黨說哇這個太離譜了"},{"start":310.882,"end":330.036,"text":"我們說砍兩億後來國安部長自己講抱歉抱歉我們之前沒有房價我們自己砍 砍四億四億就省下來啦可以給公教成員給警校啊 給軍公教啊說聯合作戰中心桌椅啊什麼設備要整修一張桌子250萬一張椅子五萬塊錢那是空間還是防彈"},{"start":335.842,"end":356.76,"text":"後來國防部連部長自己都拍謝他吃太多了國防部的錢一下子編太多了自己都吐出來了這個錢也都四處都砍了所以光是去上個禮拜通過這個三讀預算國防部編的預算裡面就省了51下來這51就可以給軍公教給公教人員啊為什麼會說他們的錢不夠呢"},{"start":357.97,"end":380.792,"text":"另外你看光電板幣那麼多浪費那麼多錢幣又那麼多還發生槍擊案那個錢只要整下來錢怎麼會不過呢所以我今天提出了三個解決方案另外我做幾個簡單的提醒我們現在公教之前坎德太兄這個事情已經發生了後遺症了我們的公教我給大家看一下這個圖"},{"start":382.492,"end":401.919,"text":"我去統計了106年到113年各項公務員考試來報考的人大家知道多嚴重嗎 大家看這個圖106年 就是年金改革之前一年來報考公務人員的47萬到了年金改革完之後到了去年113 剩下29萬少了17萬"},{"start":407.284,"end":427.693,"text":"公務員是這樣子這不只傷害公務員的品質啊傷害也是國家啊傷害是我們全民啊再來看教育右邊這個你看那個土那個像一個剖頭多嚴重在107年年金改革的時候你如果拿到教師證的你會進到這個職場去當老師的70%到了111年已經那個抖到什麼地方剩下57"},{"start":435.973,"end":464.37,"text":"就是你也連拿到老師的這個資格你都不一定再去教書了那不只傷害到老師啊傷害到學生 對不對所以他後遺症已經出現了嘛傷害到公務員 傷害到老師也傷害到學生 傷害到整個社會了這個後遺症非常嚴重我們要趕快去補破網 把它補起來另外今天全系部在現場 我要提醒一下今年一月份的時候我在這邊大罵全系部部長說你是八十八點因為他每次精算報告都亂搞"},{"start":466.004,"end":491.416,"text":"他竟然那天對著全國的民眾講說退休的這個警消人員啦有八成領的錢平均起來是七萬六千塊錢我問你對他眼睛看到這個後來真相是什麼可以領到七萬六的不到千分之一一千個不到一個那今天讓我生氣的今天全席部會報告他什麼樣下的你為什麼要去強調"},{"start":494.877,"end":519.395,"text":"約有31%的退休人員超過5萬5你應該是對那個一般可能領的更少人家去講啊你這個報告不是自拿嘴巴嗎你講31%你為什麼不講69%的呢你到底要凸顯什麼所以我剛在講第一個你們學一學人家勞動部好不好去爭取公務員跟教師應該有這個權利好不好我拜託一下請教育部的人員跟前續部抬頭挺胸"},{"start":520.276,"end":541.571,"text":"好 捍衛自己該有的這個權益最後我做一個很重要的提議事實上年金改革這是急著要再處理的是因為當初在年金改革的時候沒有算到高齡的CPI物價指數這個事情所以我們在1120的8月份開始要求高齡超過65歲的CPI是要我給大家看一下大家看一下一般的家庭是左邊這個"},{"start":544.524,"end":569.462,"text":"從 你看 從108年到113年如果算一般的家庭成長多少 9.91可是如果是高齡的 高齡的這個很多長輩因為退下來嘛 可能醫療要很多啊 對不對他是多少 11.39結果他越 年紀越長越沒有錢所以這個是迫切的 迫切的一個改革好 最後說一個結論啦我們今天談的不是一個冰冷這個數據"},{"start":572.028,"end":595.334,"text":"我們希望給我們的公教人員一個有尊嚴有保障的晚年因為我們肯定他們一輩子對我們國家的這個貢獻那今天我也提出三個解決方案好不好請大家好好去看一下減少浪費尊重主管機關而且只要像在照顧勞工一樣來照顧我們的公教人員所有問題都可以解決好 我們一起努力 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2025101636","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）"}},{"id":"164696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3a6628fcac630a2878145a59dfde0be428b7bf11cd0d9a0f41257d1c12132fb9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:57:53 - 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謝謝周偉今天排了一個這樣子的公聽會"},{"start":16.846,"end":29.543,"text":"提到整個國家的財政永續民進黨上任將近步入第十年常常最近這幾年在講說我們稅增超收其實國家的財政還不錯所以我們才有機會一個一個"},{"start":31.866,"end":60.372,"text":"特別預算慢慢一個一個都編出來甚至是到明年我們的國防的特別預算達到1.3兆那談到所有的基金其實我們國家大大小小基金很多該檢討的早就也應該要檢討那也不只是過去的軍公教的這個退伏相關的基金那講到世代的正義其實過去在立法院不分朝野黨派"},{"start":61.818,"end":79.369,"text":"對於如何讓台灣少子化之後或現在通膨的問題年輕人可以過得更好包括在生育 在設宅的部分我們都不斷地在編列預算所以怎麼樣去減少世代的衝突絕對不是只有年金的改革"},{"start":80.53,"end":101.768,"text":"我們還有很多不同的工具不分朝野黨派 我們都在努力讓我們年輕人無論是在勞動力 生產力 在生育率我們給予足夠的工具跟資源能讓國家更好那我非常遺憾就是說世代和解 世代正義 世代和解其實"},{"start":103.679,"end":122.358,"text":"過去國家最重要的軍公教我們如果沒有過去軍公教的付出哪有台灣這幾年中華民國這幾年這麼穩定的基礎無論是對於台灣整體的國防對於我們過去的十大建設還有我們過去奠定這麼多優秀的公務人員"},{"start":123.599,"end":142.515,"text":"這都是我們台灣的成就但是我覺得不應該一直不斷地用世代對立這幾個字來當我們年輕改革的導火線這撕裂的是整體國家民眾跟民眾之間的情感人民跟人民之間的情感更是增加更多的人民的對立"},{"start":143.601,"end":157.031,"text":"那我剛剛已經提到就是說在整體國家經濟起飛建設的那個年代軍工教是我們最可靠也是最堅實的力量也是我們最堅實的後盾但是我們在修法的過程當中不論是剛剛提到的我們當時一直有提到說包括隨著我們物價的調整我們應該沒幾年我們應該來再去做一些檢討什麼的"},{"start":167.458,"end":189.883,"text":"但是我非常遺憾的當時在立法院民進黨是用多數暴力本來應該放進去的條文最後該討論都變成是過場從106年教師年改立法到現在8年我們的消費我們的物價大漲了13.42%換句話說我們依所的替代率上限從107年起合計已經調降了9%"},{"start":193.644,"end":204.93,"text":"退休的教師更要承擔13.42%的通膨合計已經超過兩成已經超過原定所得替代率在118年要下調15%的目標"},{"start":209.117,"end":225.526,"text":"當時政府對於教師的承諾不僅是我們當時用羞辱的方式在立法院通過了年改的法案那當時說通膨要檢討的其實我們也到最後法條也沒有通過"},{"start":226.446,"end":241.682,"text":"那当时的讨论也是过场式的讨论所以当时我们退休人员的退幅跟当时给予的时间因时值而减少就是说随着时间跟通膨我们当时本来认为说他每一年应该可以达到他至少"},{"start":242.463,"end":262.036,"text":"年老經濟可以照顧他他的所得還可以照顧他但是現在完全不是如此親愛軍公教的權益是非常大的軍公教自從進入職場以來薪資待遇退休都是依照政府給的規定軍公教他沒有協商權他更沒有成立工會的權利"},{"start":264.025,"end":276.802,"text":"他更沒有成立工會的權利我們都非常氣沒有發生的機會跟管道他是最沉默的一群當他們退休之後沒想到配合年改年改的過程當中被批評說他們是米蟲"},{"start":279.305,"end":294.417,"text":"並且很多的法條是對立法院多數的暴力來去做調整所以我非常期待這一次的修法是大家可以靜下心來去了解他們到底碰到哪些問題更何況這一次的停砍是停砍不是我們要多撥補多少的預算是我們現在我們整體的物價通膨的問題再加上過去砍了多少我們目前是希望停砍的狀況"},{"start":308.248,"end":318.108,"text":"並不是我們要多給多少錢所以真正的世代正義世代和解世代和平我們希望可以透過這一次修法大家可以更理性來做討論以上 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2025101636","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）"}},{"id":"164659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3e4254efb920313da8145a59dfde0be4261e6bfef52f5c093849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:27:12 - 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謝謝主席 各位與會的專家各位委員 各位朋友 大家好自2017年年金改革以來公教人員退休所得替代率每年遞減1.5%到2029年 就是15年"},{"start":27.436,"end":42.141,"text":"這個將降至6成以下這8年間消費者物價指數CPI累積上漲約8%但公教年金僅於111年象徵性的調整2%實質購買率這樣子加起來將會少將近5成"},{"start":46.943,"end":68.422,"text":"許多退休人員面對醫療照護生活成本高漲陷入越老越窮的困境這不僅是數字問題而是尊嚴與信任的問題所以本席要強調退休金是勞動報酬的延遲給付不應該淪為政治角力下的犧牲品"},{"start":69.062,"end":91.559,"text":"老保年金早有明确法定机制在CPI涨幅达50%给付必须随之调整反观教职的退府制度却缺乏自动联动机制一切仍取决于政府年度财政与政治考量欠缺可预期性以及稳定性"},{"start":92.359,"end":99.03,"text":"這樣的雙重標準無法說服基層的教師也削弱青年投入教職的意願"},{"start":100.171,"end":121.452,"text":"较真的报考人数从2015年起便跌破4万大关逐年往下降去年只剩下3万多人也反映出信任流失的结果我们支持合理的改革但反对将改革变成长期削减的代名词本期此次的修法"},{"start":122.493,"end":144.928,"text":"並非要恢復舊制而是要停止所得替代率的逐年遞減並建立比照勞保CPI的調整機制讓制度以甚實對接確保退休所得不被通膨侵蝕同時要求政府應該提高調撥的比例不能讓基金的缺口"},{"start":145.808,"end":166.737,"text":"成為削減年金的藉口更重要的是今天這場爭議的核心不僅是年金數字的高低而是政府與公教之間的信任的修復107年改革以後退休公教實質所得大幅縮水基金收益穩定"},{"start":168.178,"end":195.319,"text":"税收年年超增政府却持续调降所得替代率让基层公教感觉被背叛今年的退休公教就是明日再执公教的禁止如果政府可以任意改变承诺未来年轻的公教人员还敢相信我们的制度吗因此我们主张的停砍基金不是走回头路而是让制度回归正轨"},{"start":195.959,"end":198.641,"text":"最後還是要非常感謝今天所有到場的老師以及教授們大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":226.209,"end":226.37,"text":"好 謝謝張委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2025101636","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」公聽會）"}},{"id":"164645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3a87d4d9d900907938145a59dfde0be423bd93a97ab146713cf300a208d967c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:29:28 - 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麻煩請中央銀行楊總裁好 請楊總裁"},{"start":24.589,"end":50.636,"text":"吳委員早早喔是這個看到你的報告裡面提到今年上半年的經濟成長率是GDP是6.75是那因為上半年已經結束所以這是確定的對沒有錯然後你們的預估是下半年是2.51是所以全年現在預估是4.55是那當然你剛剛有講說12月的時候你們還會再開一個會然後看看是不是調整"},{"start":50.996,"end":71.586,"text":"但是我提醒你第三季我們的出口仍然更超越以往更破紀錄所以我看這個明顯的2.5億這個預估應該是會要調高我想我們會仔細的去研究裡面一個很重要的原因就是我們的出口"},{"start":72.406,"end":80.577,"text":"尤其是電子跟AI產品的出口這個訂單持續在增加今年對美國的粗糙你認為應該會有多少金額"},{"start":87.631,"end":112.918,"text":"我有一個數據跟委員報告我們是也有做預估大概會1200億左右去年我們台灣看自己的報告是600多億的順差但是美國是說是700多億因為可能轉口什麼計算的標準不是很一致差距不大"},{"start":115.299,"end":133.912,"text":"這700多億的這個順差在美國來講就已經是他前幾名的這個順差國家所以站在國際貿易的角度你認為這個應該要如何平衡我們有時候講談政治也好談國家跟國家之好一地而處"},{"start":134.953,"end":155.527,"text":"今天如果有一個國家對台灣的粗糙是這麼的多的時候那你覺得台灣政府不應該要拿出一些對策嗎那如果用這樣的想法相對的美國政府也對我們提出很多的對策嘛包括他要跟你關稅談判啊然後希望你要多進口美國的東西啊要平衡貿易啊"},{"start":157.568,"end":172.575,"text":"這個目標不僅達不成如果照你剛剛預估數目今年的順差會達到1200多億那我覺得你未來的問題可能面對的要很嚴峻那總裁你的想法如何平衡台灣跟美國之間的國際貿易呢"},{"start":174.436,"end":188.465,"text":"我想報告委員剛剛你所講的就是說我們對美國的增加對他的一個採購這個是一個方式不管就是說是在國防後面還有其他應該"},{"start":192.848,"end":196.849,"text":"人家讓我們賺了這麼多錢我們如果合理的就是要跟人家買是所以就是說現在我們要把我們就是說台灣的一個經驗要到美國去設廠我想如果說我們台積電在那邊設廠還有周遭的一些相關的一個產業鏈也能夠過去的話"},{"start":217.256,"end":219.257,"text":"這個我覺得我在猜想這個也是我們平衡我們中美貿易的一個很好的方式這個方式是這樣子的因為現在美國川普總統他們政府的政策就是要製造業重回美國"},{"start":234.364,"end":260.547,"text":"那製造業重回美國當然非常多的面向其中包括AI跟電子產業裡面台灣扮演重要的角色那在造船方面韓國扮演重要的角色在其他的領域日本又扮演重要的角色等等所以這是一個國際之間如何跟美國在全世界建構的貿易再平衡然後配合美國的政策的一個重要指標那因為美國的勞動界就是說他們的"},{"start":262.367,"end":275.872,"text":"這個工人他的工作習慣跟台灣的文化是不一樣的另外台灣因為中小企業是很龐大所以我們是一個整個產業群組整個聚落所以我們譬如說我在台灣"},{"start":277.031,"end":302.412,"text":"做的是一部分然後大家打群架嘛才會做出最終端的好產品那美國基本上他們現在的製造業沒有這樣的概念所以才說要去美國複製科學園區的概念是這樣子的觀念那問題是這個是去美國投資是只有平衡這個金融帳啊我們去那邊投資弄了很多美金去美國投資但那還是台灣的錢啊"},{"start":303.593,"end":327.531,"text":"那台湾的企业到美国投资目的也是要赚更多的钱当然在美国会有制造会有工作机会但是那个只是一部分对啦没有错啦所以其实我是觉得政府的政策跟目前谈判的方向跟美国的政策是整个是一贯的啦这个对美贸易谈判我常常做一个比喻"},{"start":328.331,"end":347.63,"text":"是吃西餐的套餐啦是一攬子的不能光挑裡面的一樣出來比啦那老師要比說那現在韓國是15%那台灣20%比較高問題是你韓國大家一定要投資美國4千多億的美金啊那現在李在民回到韓國說"},{"start":349.073,"end":365.284,"text":"沒有辦法兌現啦因為他說如果兌現的話韓國可能會產生新的金融危機因為韓國的外匯存底跟比不上台灣嘛他自己基本上也沒有4000多億美金可以拿出來去做投資嘛那被打臉了之後現在美國政府回過頭來會怎麼對付韓國我們還在看啦"},{"start":368.18,"end":394.935,"text":"那當然因為美國也有很多的問題啊譬如說他的最高法院最近也在對這個貿易談判的這個關稅問題在打法律官司在跟美國政府之間有人在跟美國政府之間打法律官司嘛所以這個10月底才會見真章嘛所以我覺得我們做一個公允的論證比較是一攬子的比較而不是只單一項目的比較沒有錯啦 是沒有錯"},{"start":396.107,"end":413.904,"text":"那再來我要問你一個就是會對你產生的問題因為粗糙這麼多台灣又一直被列在外匯操縱的觀察名單那因為粗糙樹木是三大指標裡面的一個很重要的指標所以你如何來面對下面"},{"start":415.186,"end":426.442,"text":"這個國家大好但是你央行在這一方面你要面對考驗那你跟我們回答一下你要如何委員講得沒有錯基本上美國財政部的匯率報告它三項的指標"},{"start":431.169,"end":436.815,"text":"那第一項跟第二項就是經常漲的順差對GDP還有就對美國的一個順差的金額這兩項我們從以前到現在都一直存在的那如果說第三項的話第三項如果我們又觸及到它的時候呢就如同委員說的我們就變成操縱了"},{"start":455.503,"end":459.326,"text":"那操縱的話呢在現在呢這個關稅談判的過程當中呢如果我們又被他抓住這個把柄的話就是說我們台灣呢是操縱匯率的話那這個呢就會變成一個很大的一個事件所以基本上呢我們央行也非常的注意他所以呢但是呢我想呢我們有兩個目標第一個目標呢我們是盡量的"},{"start":485.703,"end":500.997,"text":"要维持我们汇率的稳定让我们的进出口厂商它的报价能够稳定它的营运能够顺畅这是第一个我们的目标这个我觉得最重要是是是第二个目标呢我们呢"},{"start":502.819,"end":506.082,"text":"在因為我們跟美國之間財政部的一個在討論的過程當中我們彼此之間的一個關係也蠻良好的也蠻良好的溝通順暢溝通非常順暢但是即使是順暢但是我們還是不要去踩到他的紅線"},{"start":523.058,"end":543.286,"text":"是但是總裁我現在是講你前面剛剛講那兩樣是我們台灣一直存在沒有錯但是去年存在的客觀現實是對美順超700多億美金但是今年你已經預估到1200多億所以前面那個不利的因素在累加你不能夠說我出超700多億的時候跟出超1200多億的時候是一樣的看待"},{"start":546.067,"end":549.052,"text":"我覺得美國不一定會這樣看待你我們不能一廂情願不過我也跟委員報告在目前的情況之下我們也要認為事實上美國在AI的方面它也是非常依賴我們台灣"},{"start":562.054,"end":583.444,"text":"當然我覺得技術上面還有製造上面我們跟美國是互補如果是未來的高科技產業所謂的電子高科技產業AI這一方面我覺得美國跟台灣的合作會是未來世界的先驅我們已經知道好的位置當然希望繼續維持下去但是我是覺得說"},{"start":585.25,"end":602.359,"text":"這個方面如何跟我們跟美國之間的匯率等等這些問題當然最重要是要維持穩定因為台灣的市場小你如果太多的美金進到台灣投資這些股市然後來來去去會造成幣值的不穩定沒有錯 委員也是觀察得非常的仔細"},{"start":603.8,"end":618.736,"text":"最後一個小問題就是你的新台幣改版你說要向公眾提出徵詢那我先表達我的意見給你聽我是希望未來的新台幣不要再把政治人物放到上面去當這個頭像其實那個時代已經過去了早足以"},{"start":623.839,"end":635.189,"text":"這彰顯台灣的特色 台灣的東西把它放到這上面來這是我的建議 無論是哪一個政治人物都不要再放上去委員的建議 我想我們會納入參考好 謝謝 加油你的這個責任很重是 謝謝 謝謝委員主席謝謝吳秉仁委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時24分）主席，麻煩請中央銀行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：早。看到你的報告裡面提到今年上半年的經濟成長率GDP是6.75%嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為上半年已經結束，所以這是確定的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：然後你們的預估下半年是2.51%，所以全年現在預估是4.55%。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然你剛剛也講12月的時候你們還會再開個會，然後看看是不是要調整，但是我提醒你，第3季我們的出口仍然更超越以往、更破紀錄了，所以我看這2.51%的預估很明顯應該是會調高。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我想我們會仔細地去研究。"],["吳委員秉叡：裡面有一個很重要的原因就是我們的出口，尤其是電子跟AI產品的出口，訂單持續在增加，然後今年對美國的出超，你認為應該會有多少金額？"],["楊總裁金龍：我有一個數據跟委員報告，我們也有做預估大概會1,200億左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，去年我們看臺灣自己的報告是六百多億的順差，但是美國說是七百多億，因為可能轉口的計算標準不是很一致，差距不大。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：七百多億的順差對美國來講就已經是他前幾名的順差國家。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以站在國際貿易的角度，你認為這應該要如何平衡？有時候我們談政治也好、談國家跟國家之間也好，易地而處，今天如果有一個國家對臺灣的出超是這麼多的時候，你覺得臺灣政府不應該要拿出一些對策嗎？如果用這樣的想法，相對的美國政府也對我們提出很多的對策，包括他要跟我們關稅談判，希望我們要多進口美國的東西、要平衡貿易，這個目標不僅達不成，如果照你剛剛預估今年的順差會達到一千兩百多億，那我覺得未來的問題可能要面對會很嚴峻喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，你的想法如何平衡臺灣跟美國之間的國際貿易呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，剛剛你所講的，我們增加對美國的採購，這個是一個方式，不管是在國防方面，還有另外……"],["吳委員秉叡：大宗物資、國防還有其他，人家讓我們賺了這麼多錢，如果合理的我們就是要跟人家買。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以現在我們臺灣的經驗要到美國設廠，我想如果台積電在那邊設廠，還有周遭一些相關的產業鏈也能夠過去的話，我在猜想這個也是我們平衡中美貿易一個很好的方式。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個方式是這樣子的，因為現在美國川普總統政府的政策就是要製造業重回美國，製造業重回美國當然有非常多的面向，其中AI跟電子產業方面，臺灣扮演重要的角色；在造船方面，韓國扮演重要的角色；在其他領域，日本又扮演重要的角色等等。所以這是一個國際之間如何跟美國在全世界建構的貿易再平衡，然後配合美國政策的一個重要指標，因為美國勞動界工人的工作習慣跟臺灣的文化是不一樣的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，因為臺灣的中小企業是很龐大，所以我們是整個產業群組、整個聚落，譬如說我在臺灣做的是一部分，然後大家打群架才會做出最終端的好產品。美國基本上現在的製造業沒有這樣的概念，所以才說要去美國複製科學園區的概念，是這樣子的觀念。問題是去美國投資只有平衡金融帳，我們弄了很多美金去美國投資，但那還是臺灣的錢，臺灣的企業在美國投資，目的也是要賺更多的錢，當然在美國製造會有工作機會，但是那只是一部分。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實我是覺得政府的政策跟目前談判的方向、跟美國的政策整個是一貫的。有關對美貿易談判，我常常做一個比喻，是吃西餐的套餐、是一籃子的，不能光挑裡面的一項出來比，老是在比現在韓國是15%，臺灣20%比較高。問題是韓國答應要投資美國四千多億美金，現在李在明回到韓國說沒有辦法兌現，因為他說如果兌現的話，韓國可能會產生新的金融危機，因為韓國的外匯存底比不上臺灣嘛！基本上他也沒有四千多億美金可以拿出來投資嘛！被打臉了之後，現在美國政府回過頭來會怎麼對付韓國，我們還在看啦！當然因為美國有很多的問題，比如最高法院最近也對貿易談判的關稅問題在打法律官司，有人在跟美國政府之間打法律官司，所以10月底才會見真章。我覺得我們做一個公允的論證比較，是一籃子的比較，而不是只單一項目的比較。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來我要問一個會對你產生的問題，因為出超這麼多，臺灣又一直被列在外匯操縱的觀察名單，因為出超數目是三大指標裡面一個很重要的指標嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你如何來面對？國家大好，但是央行在這一方面要面對考驗啊，你回答一下要如何因應？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講得沒有錯，基本上美國財政部的匯率報告有三項指標，第一項跟第二項，就是經常帳對GDP，還有對美國順差的金額，這兩項我們從以前到現在都一直存在。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：如果第三項我們又觸及到它的時候，就如同委員說的我們變成操縱了，在現在關稅談判的過程當中，如果我們又被他抓住這個把柄，也就是說臺灣是操縱匯率的話，這個就會變成一個很大的事件，所以基本上央行也非常注意。但是我想我們有兩個目標，第一個目標是我們儘量地維持匯率的穩定，讓我們進出口廠商的報價能夠穩定、營運能夠順暢，這是我們第一個目標。"],["吳委員秉叡：我覺得這個是最重要的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。第二個目標，因為我們跟美國財政部之間的討論過程當中，我們彼此之間的關係也蠻良好的……"],["吳委員秉叡：溝通順暢。"],["楊總裁金龍：溝通非常順暢，但是即使是順暢，我們還是不要去踩到他的紅線。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，但是總裁，你前面剛剛講那兩項是臺灣一直存在的，沒有錯，但是去年存在的客觀現實是對美順超七百多億美金。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是今年你已經預估到一千兩百多億了，所以前面那個不利的因素在累加，不能說出超七百多億的時候跟出超一千兩百多億的時候一樣看待，我覺得美國不一定會這樣看待你，我們不能一廂情願。"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，沒有錯。不過我也跟委員報告，在目前的情況之下，我們也要認為事實上美國在AI方面也是非常依賴我們臺灣。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然，我覺得在技術上面還有製造上面，我們跟美國是互補，如果是未來的高科技產業，所謂的電子高科技產業、AI這一方面，我覺得美國跟臺灣的合作會是未來世界的先驅，我們已經到達好的位置，當然希望繼續維持下去。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我是覺得我們跟美國之間的匯率等等問題，當然最重要是要維持穩定，因為臺灣的市場小，如果太多的美金進到臺灣投資這些股市、來來去去，會造成幣值的不穩定。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，委員也是觀察得非常仔細。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後一個小問題就是新臺幣改版，你說要向公眾提出徵詢。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那我先表達我的意見給你聽，我是希望未來的新臺幣不要再把政治人物放到上面去當頭像。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實那個時代已經過去了，找足以彰顯臺灣的特色、臺灣的東西，然後放到這上面來，這是我的建議，無論是哪一個政治人物都不要再放上去，這是我的建議。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的建議我們會納入參考。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝，加油。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：你的責任很重喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員，總裁請回。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3a9ffb59115fb30cacbd78a287304ef9f6aac6608aa0f9b4b60a2c0502c4bf3f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:11:48 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本席有請部長 陳部長我們再請陳部長部長我想我們的邊境防疫"},{"start":22.218,"end":41.324,"text":"出現了危機大家都覺得應該要想辦法改進但是有些委員一直覺得這跟沒宣費有關我想應該不是所以我今天要就邊境防疫的危機我們覺得防線潰堤的部分要來跟部長來討論我們這一次114年邊境查驗了"},{"start":48.413,"end":71.9,"text":"截至114年10月21號邊境查驗了9507件其中有996件病毒查驗是陽性等於是我們的病毒陽性率高達10%那這是不是已經證明我們邊境防線出現了系統性的潰堤嚴重危險我想 不能用這個數據因為"},{"start":73.82,"end":88.148,"text":"我們邊境查驗是看到走就是夾帶了以後我們去查驗那查驗的時候有一些不同的國家那這些是針對可能的包括你剛才說10%的這10%裡面有80%是從氣質他放在垃圾桶裡面我們去檢查的"},{"start":95.695,"end":107.841,"text":"所以它本身就是有可能是肉製品的我們就去查然後有非洲豬瘟陽性的是10%那其中大概有八成是來自中國的部分所以我們現在在機場我們現在在機場的檢驗"},{"start":111.943,"end":132.177,"text":"一般認為是不是有需要改善比如說你高度的仰賴人力那你X光機的判讀可能有一些問題或是什麼我跟委員報告我們從開始啟動整個邊境的防疫是由跨部會不同的機關來處理分幾個層次而且我們一直在精進好沒關係但我問重點好了現在有我們這個如果被這個發現是才罰20萬對不對是20萬20萬他如果"},{"start":142.784,"end":160.304,"text":"據入境他就可以不用罰他以後就不能再入境了以後就不能再入境大概有600多 629個人所以我們的這個檢查的制度是不是要調整我們現在對於入境的旅客你是看依據區域是不是高風險區域你才查還是都查"},{"start":163.922,"end":177.938,"text":"都會去查但是高風險區的話我記得我們出國回來好像都自主性的拿那個牌子不是 高風險區的部分是100%然後非高風險區的話是用抽查的方式那是在通道的時候嘛"},{"start":179.774,"end":189.039,"text":"那是分兩個部分如果說是在我們檢疫之前那我們有設我們的藍線跟紅線綠線跟紅線那那個部分是提醒如果在那個地方如果有檢驗這個違規的產品的話你丟棄那麼你在進來海關的時候你不會被罰我說的問題是你綠線給他自主性的走綠線但實際上他搞不好夾帶進來那這樣到海關的時候他一定被罰"},{"start":206.508,"end":221.793,"text":"那只要租的製品被查出來他到海關他怎麼會被查到我們有兩道防線啦我們的叫做預防性我們的是設在前面叫預防性那如果民眾配合在那個時候守規矩的話可能在後面被海關截下來的時候就不會被罰"},{"start":223.427,"end":241.012,"text":"你海關你用什麼檢查X光對啊 所以我們就說你這X光可能人力的配置我們分兩個層次一個層次就是說我們在入關之前我們會提醒你如果主動丟棄的話我們是不罰的可是一旦入關你又被查到的時候那你就會被罰"},{"start":241.832,"end":262.881,"text":"然後另外委員一直關心的就是X光機的部分的判試我們現在也盡快用AI化就是AI化的方式去處理因為我時間的關係那我想請教我們是否應該擴大WOAH國際合作共享病毒株序列可以做到超前預測變異風險讓我們的篩檢試劑跑在病毒前面這個可以嗎"},{"start":267.048,"end":271.455,"text":"我想這個部分我請我們的受益所來回應因為比較技術面的問題是"},{"start":272.569,"end":301.548,"text":"是 有关那个病毒株序列的事情我们都会公布在上面我们也因为分享在那个网络上我们能做到超前预测吗基本上不容易对 因为这个病毒它也是DNA病毒变异本身就比RNA病毒还要小变异的几率比较小而且它病毒的基因序列又比较大所以我们不容易做到预测病毒会往哪个方向去预测是不是可以看看仿效其他国家有更先进的我们想办法来做"},{"start":302.088,"end":319.635,"text":"那接著最後最後一個問題就是有關我們畫質數據的部分畫質數據這一個部分部長我們應該要能夠有及時的機動的監測而不是事後才發現現在像我很快舉例像我們現在"},{"start":320.815,"end":338.195,"text":"銀行他不是有很多警示帳戶嗎只要有異常的他就會跳出來現在你們對畫質數據有沒有動態的數據只要畫質車你的數據重量你隨時你等於有一個機制那發現異常他就跳出來我們現在就有這個機制"},{"start":341.398,"end":355.127,"text":"現在什麼時候現在就是我們畫製廠本身的這些後台的數據那我們有設定不同規模的時候它的不同百分比的異常死亡那就變成異常異常的話它自動跳出來這一次怎麼會那麼慢"},{"start":356.756,"end":381.769,"text":"這就是我們有 我們才一直提醒可是也是事後 也是事後因為當你發現那個死亡的豬隻的重量車輛的數量異常的時候 你應該馬上就可以發現對 這一次就是因為異常 我們看到異常你們也是事後嘛 不是即時的監測算是即時的 就是即時的算是即時 然後我們也通報地方政府地方政府同步也可以看到這個數據啦"},{"start":383.302,"end":396.228,"text":"好 所以我們還是希望預防勝於普殺我們大家一起來努力包含邊境的防疫還有我們這個即時的監測數據我想我們會持續的精進也不會把這個強度降低好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時12分）謝謝主席。本席有請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。我們的邊境防疫出現了危機，大家都覺得應該要想辦法改進，但是有些委員一直覺得這跟媒宣費有關，我想應該不是，所以我今天要就邊境防疫的危機、防線潰堤的部分跟部長討論。截至114年10月21號邊境查驗了9,507件，其中有996件病毒查驗是陽性，等於病毒陽性率高達10%，這是不是已經證明我們邊境防線出現了系統性的潰堤，有嚴重威脅？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不能用這個數據，因為邊境查驗是看到有人夾帶了以後，我們去查驗，查驗的時候，有不同的國家，這些是針對可能的國家……包括你剛才說10%，這10%裡面又有80%是棄置……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是陽性。"],["陳部長駿季：被放在垃圾桶裡面，我們去檢查的。它有可能是肉製品，所以我們去查，然後有非洲豬瘟陽性的是10%，其中大概有八成是來自中國。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一般認為現在機場的檢驗是不是有需要改善？比如高度仰賴人力，X光機的判讀可能有一些問題或是什麼，會不會？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從開始啟動整個邊境的防疫，就由跨部會不同的機關來處理，分幾個層次，而且我們一直在精進，強度沒有降過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，我問重點好了。現在如果被發現是裁罰20萬，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是20萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果他拒入境，就可以不用被罰20萬。"],["陳部長駿季：他以後就不能再入境了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：以後就不能再入境？"],["陳部長駿季：大概有629個人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以檢查的制度是不是要調整？現在對於入境的旅客是依據區域，是不是？高風險區域才查，還是都查？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！所有的都會去查，但是高風險區的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我記得我們出國回來好像都是自主性的拿那個牌子。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，高風險區的部分是百分之百，非高風險區的話是用抽查的方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在通道的時候嘛。"],["杜署長麗華：那是分兩個部分，如果是在我們檢疫之前，我們有設綠線跟紅線。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，綠線跟紅線。"],["杜署長麗華：那個部分是提醒，如果在那個地方有檢驗違規產品的話，你丟棄，那麼你在進來海關的時候不會被罰。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我說的問題是，你給他自主性的走綠線，但實際上他搞不好會夾帶進來。"],["杜署長麗華：這樣到海關的時候，他一定被罰，只要豬的製品被查出來就是罰20萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：他到海關，他怎麼會被查到？"],["杜署長麗華：我們有兩道防線，我們的是設在前面的，叫預防性，如果民眾配合，在那個時候守規矩的話，可能在後面被海關截下來的時候就不會被罰。"],["徐委員欣瑩：海關用什麼檢查？"],["杜署長麗華：X光。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，所以我們就說你這個X光可能人力的配置……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們分兩個層次，一個層次就是我們在入關之前會提醒你，如果主動丟棄的話，我們是不罰的，可是一旦入關，你又被查到的時候就會被罰。另外，委員一直關心的就是X光機的判識，我們現在也儘快地AI化。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有想辦法加強？"],["陳部長駿季：就是用AI化的方式處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間的關係，我想請教，我們是否應該擴大與WOAH國際合作，共享病毒株序列，可以做到超前預測變異風險，讓我們的篩檢試劑跑在病毒前面？這個可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我請我們的獸醫所來回應，因為是比較技術面的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是。"],["鄧所長明中：有關病毒株序列的事情，我們都會公布在上面，也因為分享在那個網路上，我們也是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們能做到超前預測嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：基本上不容易。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不容易？"],["鄧所長明中：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：想盡辦法吧！"],["鄧所長明中：因為這個病毒是DNA病毒，變異本身就比RNA病毒還要小，變異的機率比較小，而且它病毒的基因序列又比較大，所以我們不容易做到預測病毒會往哪個方向去發展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是可以仿效有更先進方式的其他國家，想辦法來做？接著最後一個問題是有關化製數據的部分。部長，我們應該要能夠即時、機動的監測，而不是事後才發現。我很快舉個例，像我們現在銀行不是有很多警示帳戶嗎？只要有異常的，它就會跳出來。現在你們對化製數據有沒有動態的數據？只要有化製車，你這個數據、重量等於有一個機制，隨時發現異常它就跳出來，不會是事後才發現。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在就有這個機制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在？什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在化製場本身的這些後臺的數據，我們有設定不同規模時，它有不同百分比的異常死亡，就會變成異常，異常的話它會自動跳出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那這次怎麼會那麼慢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們有，我們才一直提醒……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是也是事後耶！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：也是事後，因為當你發現死亡豬隻的重量、車輛的數量異常的時候，你應該馬上就可以發現，不是等到比較後面。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這一次就是因為異常，我們看到異常，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們也是事後，不是即時的監測。"],["陳部長駿季：算是即時的，就是即時的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：算即時的？"],["陳部長駿季：算是即時，然後我們也會通報地方政府，地方政府也可以同步看到這個數據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們還是希望預防勝於撲殺。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們大家一起來努力。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含邊境的防疫，還有我們這個即時的監測數據。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續地精進，也不會把這個強度降低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員陳超明、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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主席 在黨委員先進列席的政務機關首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請陳部長我們再請陳部長委員好部長 我很迅速的延續剛剛賴慧媛委員所說的在日本的廚餘它是轉化成液態飼料來飼養豬 對不對"},{"start":28.923,"end":52.071,"text":"對 它是轉化成飼料以後再進來那為什麼要轉化成液態飼料呢 兩個原因因為每個人每天都在製造廚餘所以廚餘一定要去化 對不對是但是廚餘如果直接餵養會有風險所以日本在轉化成液態飼料後才給豬隻食用對不對是好 那我請問一下我們今年是不是宣布台灣才脫離三大疫區是 今年五月豬瘟的嘛 是傳統豬瘟 非洲豬瘟 還有長病毒對不對"},{"start":56.857,"end":66.31,"text":"那請問一下過去這幾年來關於管制廚餘申請資源再利用是不是有使用"},{"start":67.389,"end":91.539,"text":"我想我們從108年開始這些對廚餘的關係跟現在一樣嘛跟現在一樣沒有對所以在這樣的廚餘的再資源化利用的情況之下台灣仍然有效的達成脫離豬瘟的疫區是不是對如果說我們沒有去重視它我們不可能守住七年啊是的表示說過去這七年還是有這樣的廚餘的再資源化的利用但是"},{"start":92.159,"end":117.003,"text":"沒有影響到我們脫離疫區的努力這都是靠著大家落實嘛所以重點是在落實還是禁用我覺得落實是最重要的好就像我們說的有人運動要去登山有人要去健行你會因為健行被車撞還是因為登山發生山難就全面禁止登山健行嗎你會這樣做嗎不會不會嗎好那我們接下來看一下那"},{"start":118.123,"end":143.277,"text":"請問一下什麼樣的豬種是使用廚餘資源化的我們現在了解的是大概是黑毛豬的部分黑毛豬嘛黑豬白豬各有所好那請問黑豬佔我們全體豬的量供應量大概多少有沒有8%大概大概40幾萬隻吧差不多8%8%對8%所以說絕大部分我們吃的豬肉是白肉豬白毛豬黑豬只有8%黑豬的主要消費地在哪裡"},{"start":145.08,"end":167.93,"text":"在桃園 在桃竹苗 你有沒有看過客家的那個神豬 賽豬公有沒有都是黑豬嘛 這是一個特定族群的傳統的習俗跟他們的飲食習慣 那麼黑豬的主要消費地是在桃竹苗那請問這個地區的黑豬使用的廚餘資源化來源地是哪裡 是不是北部的餐廳"},{"start":170.072,"end":185.19,"text":"是嘛北部的外食人口多所以北部的連飼料的供應也是北部市場的需求也在北部所以桃豬苗的確是台灣目前這8%黑豬的產地跟市場的主要集中區是不是這樣"},{"start":185.851,"end":208.702,"text":"是的 我跟委員報告那為什麼這次我們在台中出現了這一場我們的廚餘的資源化再利用是誰在管 是不是環保局在管是 地方是環保局那我們是不是有兩個原則第一 兩百頭以下不得使用 對不對規模化才有效益第二 一定要集中高溫烹煮 對不對是不是還包括說我們盡量鼓勵試用團散的食魚家庭廚餘的風險是不是比較高"},{"start":210.017,"end":225.788,"text":"相對相對那你認為這是無期的清潔隊他收來的廚餘是家庭廚餘還是團戰廚餘我們在疫調也會了解不過你如果不管是清潔隊或是事業廚餘或是家庭廚餘你如果要落實爭主是落實爭主最主要的但是風險呢"},{"start":226.889,"end":249.765,"text":"家庭廚餘有可能會是境外郵包食品的郵包比如說我不是一定但是有可能是包括境內的移工他們想念家鄉的食物進來的郵包食用後進入了家庭廚餘被清潔隊收了後送到了這個養豬場這個小規模養豬場又沒有高溫蒸煮造成了這樣的可能性這樣的可能性是不是存在"},{"start":250.728,"end":269.001,"text":"我覺得所有的風險我們都不可以忽視好那所以呢我這裡呢要請我們農業部一定要在行政院現在行政院有沒有聯合起來對這個非洲豬瘟的事件開始做跨部會的協調我想特別是昨天院長特別召開了這些跨部會的這個非洲豬瘟的一個應變的一個會議"},{"start":270.422,"end":295.206,"text":"那原來的制度裡面就有中央非洲豬的中央應變中心我們會透過這個組織來運作所以包括目前在我們本來廚餘縣市屬於管制使用必須資源化處理對不對那這個是環境部環保局在做那請問現在台中市的部分它那麼多團山那麼多營養午餐產生那麼多的廚餘這段時間不能使用那怎麼去化這是農業部管的還是環境部管的"},{"start":296.006,"end":310.499,"text":"這個是環境部來協助來處理的地方的環保局所以地方的環保局要趕快的落實趕快的去因應在這段禁用廚餘期間團散營養午餐的這個廚餘要怎麼去化可以用燒的嗎"},{"start":312.998,"end":330.37,"text":"不曉得我想這是環境部環保局的問題我所了解環境部跟地方環保局昨天已經有開會然後希望說有一個儲存的地方然後用委外的方式去收取所以我們在這裡希望說其實這個儲餘資源化是環境議題"},{"start":331.671,"end":358.633,"text":"對於農業部門來講養豬全部的黑豬只佔8%不是我們國家主要的養豬的主要的市場但是在國內仍然有特定的消費人口在使用所以我們希望說未來農業部跟環境部要在這一次的教訓之後我們一定要落實包括邊境管制包括這些使用的資源化必須要能夠被監督有落實高溫徵阻可以嗎這一定要這樣做的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我很迅速地延續剛剛賴惠員委員所說的，在日本，廚餘是轉化成液態飼料來養豬，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，它是轉化成飼料以後再進來，不是直接蒸煮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼要轉化成液態飼料有兩個原因，因為每個人每天都在製造廚餘，所以廚餘一定要去化，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是廚餘如果直接餵養會有風險，所以日本是把它轉化成液態飼料以後才給豬隻食用，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我請問一下，我們今年是不是宣布臺灣脫離三大疫區？"],["陳部長駿季：是，今年5月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：傳統豬瘟、非洲豬瘟還有腸病毒，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是口蹄疫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，口蹄疫。請問一下，過去這幾年來，關於管制廚餘、申請資源再利用，是不是有使用？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從108年開始，對廚餘的管制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟現在一樣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：跟現在一樣，沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在廚餘資源化再利用的情況下，臺灣仍然有效達成脫離豬瘟疫區，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，如果沒有去重視它，我們不可能守住7年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，表示過去這7年，還是有廚餘資源化的利用，但是沒有影響到我們脫離疫區的努力。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是靠大家落實嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以重點是在落實還是禁用？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得落實是最重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就像有人運動要去登山、有人要去健行，你會因為健行被車撞還是登山發生山難，就全面禁止登山、健行嗎？你會這樣做嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會嘛，好。接下來，請問什麼樣的豬種是使用廚餘資源化的？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在瞭解的大概是黑毛豬的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黑毛豬嘛！黑豬、白豬各有所好。請問黑豬占我們全體豬隻的供應量大概是多少？有沒有8%？"],["陳部長駿季：大概四十幾萬隻吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：差不多8%嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們吃的豬肉絕大部分是白毛豬，黑豬只有8%？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黑豬的主要消費地在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：桃園……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在桃竹苗。你有沒有看過客家的神豬？賽豬公，有沒有？都是黑豬嘛！這是一個特定族群的傳統習俗跟他們的飲食習慣。","黑豬的主要消費地是在桃竹苗，請問這個地區的黑豬使用的廚餘資源化來源地是哪裡？是不是北部的餐廳？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！北部的外食人口多，所以飼料的供應是北部，市場的需求也在北部，所以桃竹苗的確是臺灣目前這8%黑豬的產地跟市場的主要集中區，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是的，我跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼這次在臺中出現這一場？我們的廚餘資源化再利用是誰在管？是不是環保局在管？"],["陳部長駿季：是，地方是環保局……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們是不是有兩個原則，第一，200頭以下不得使用，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：規模化才有效益。第二，一定要集中高溫蒸煮，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是還包括儘量鼓勵使用團膳的廚餘，因為家庭廚餘的風險比較高？"],["陳部長駿季：相對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為這次梧棲清潔隊收來的廚餘是家庭廚餘還是團膳廚餘？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的疫調也會瞭解，不過不管清潔隊收的是事業廚餘或家庭廚餘，如果能落實蒸煮……"],["鍾委員佳濱：落實蒸煮是最主要的？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是風險上家庭廚餘……"],["陳部長駿季：會比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能會是境外郵包食品，我不是說一定，但是有可能包括境內移工想念家鄉的食物，進來的郵包食品食用後，進入家庭廚餘，被清潔隊收取以後送到養豬場，這個小規模的養豬場又沒有高溫蒸煮，從而造成這樣的可能性。這樣的可能性是不是存在？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得所有的風險都不可以忽視。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我請農業部一定要在行政院……現在行政院有沒有聯合起來，對這個非洲豬瘟的事件開始做跨部會的協調？"],["陳部長駿季：昨天院長特別召開了跨部會的非洲豬瘟應變會議，原來的制度裡面就有非洲豬瘟的中央應變中心，我們會透過這個組織來運作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以包括本來縣市廚餘管制使用，必須資源化處理，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個是環境部、環保局在做。請問現在臺中市的部分，他們那麼多團膳、那麼多營養午餐產生那麼多廚餘，這段時間不能使用，那怎麼去化？這是農業部管的，還是環境部管的？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是環境部來協助處理的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地方的環保局？"],["陳部長駿季：對，環保局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以地方的環保局要趕快落實、趕快去因應在這段禁用廚餘期間，團膳、營養午餐的廚餘要怎麼去化，可以用燒的嗎？不曉得？我想這是環境部、環保局的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：我所了解，環境部跟地方環保局昨天已經有開會，希望有一個貯存的地方，並且用委外的方式去收取。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實廚餘資源化是環境議題，對於農業部門來講，養豬全部的黑豬只占8%，不是我們國家養豬主要的市場，但是在國內仍然有特定的消費人口在使用，所以我們希望未來農業部跟環境部要在這一次的教訓之後，我們一定要落實，包括邊境管制、包括這些使用的資源化，必須要能夠被監督有落實高溫蒸煮，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這一定要這樣做的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":9.4,"end":31.65,"text":"部長 那個延續剛才幾位委員的一個議題我要請教10月10號到10月14號這個是一個採樣的一個關鍵期那到底就是說台中動保處有沒有要求就是事主就是要採樣"},{"start":32.87,"end":54.46,"text":"那有没有事主就是这个过程里头是怎么样的一个情况我们必须要去把它厘清这个关系到后续的一些行政的一个工作那还有最重要就是说10月10号到10月14号他再出地再20倍价那个流畜我想大家"},{"start":55,"end":81.486,"text":"必須要把它搞清楚是行政怠惰還是程序上的一個疏失還是制度出了一個問題這10天的空窗期絕對不是台中市副市長那個黃國榮一句說我們已經盡了最大的努力了我想這個關係到整個養豬產業非常重要的一個存亡之際我們花了20年在把台灣變成是一個"},{"start":82.526,"end":100.441,"text":"非洲豬瘟的一個防疫區這個你知道我們這裡面都可以外銷外銷新加坡 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從那個敘事這個等等的一個途徑你都是要那個全部全線的一個追蹤那再來還有境外的一個包裹境外的包裹你有沒有跨部會跨部會去做一個整合現在境外的包裹是不是應該要暫停呢"},{"start":247.31,"end":273.84,"text":"我跟你們報告就是整個邊境的防堵的部分大概從旅客的部分包括郵包的部分還有快遞的部分包括走私的部分我們是跨部會聯合稽查那這個部分我想我們從108年開始我們就非常積極的去做而且這個強度沒有降低反而是更精進的部分包括抽檢的比例更高所以這個部分我們會去持續去加強"},{"start":274.36,"end":292.046,"text":"部長 你的宣傳會就已經被刪了六成了你怎麼有辦法做這麼多的一個事情呢境外包裹 我跟你講這個違規中港澳最高嘛你這次出現的問題是噴嘛你是在那個就是用那個噴室養的這一些養豬場嘛"},{"start":293.226,"end":314.351,"text":"有没有考虑到就是说在未来是不是要前面的那个停止这个也是一个很重要的一个议题这个是后续的问题那你也要考虑你知道吗其实在日本养猪他们也是有用到喷可是他们是用喷把它在那个生育做饲料它是变成饲料变成饲料以后再来喂猪所以这个问题是我们"},{"start":315.151,"end":342.65,"text":"必須要關心的對 後續的養豬的這些政策我們包括可能逐步的轉型然後也讓這個廚藝的部分有機會變成飼料以後再來餵這個部分我想我們會整體來考慮是啊 是啊所以再一次提醒部長就是說也請你加油因為面臨到很這個是很重要很重要的一個對養豬產業很大的一個困境跟挑戰所以農業部跟其他的部會我們要一起聯合起來跨部會謝謝好 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透過您早上的說明跟關務署的說明以及我們所有的委員大家的提問跟溝通跟你的回覆我希望的排定今天的議程就是希望讓我們的國人能夠安心下來"},{"start":47.924,"end":67.422,"text":"而且也知道政府的方向是什么不要一直的揣测让民众恐慌这是本席今天之所以排定这一个国人大家非常关心的这个议题也谢谢委员让我们农业部有这个机会透过这样的一个场合跟外界做说明也跟委员做报告"},{"start":67.822,"end":82.461,"text":"非常感謝那你也辛苦了那接下來本集要說的是今年五月份我們台灣才剛獲世界動物衛生組織認定為朱溫飛一國那成為亞洲一同"},{"start":83.702,"end":102.631,"text":"這個唯一的可以同時來取得傳統豬瘟口蹄疫跟非洲豬瘟三大豬變非疫國這個是我們一直來努力的而且已經達陣但是沒有想到在這個4個月之後那10月10號發生了養豬場出現了豬隻異常死亡的這個情況那麼到20號有發現到"},{"start":112.857,"end":129.595,"text":"17支的诸支的这些现象所以本席首先也就是说在发生时间的时候当我们在21号确认为非洲诸瘟阳性并采取扑杀跟禁运的这个措施"},{"start":130.416,"end":144.166,"text":"那也顯示說在整個的過程當中我們到底到目前為止當然似乎是可確定是非洲竹瘟但是還是要經過科學的一個證據最後確認"},{"start":146.187,"end":162.632,"text":"在這個情況當中我們也採取了一些措施包括中央的措施地方台中市政府的措施一直大家中央地方合作來努力那目前的情況是如何呢請做說明"},{"start":163.973,"end":192.46,"text":"我想我們特別是在昨天開始成立台中前進應變所那在應變所裡面特別也邀請了台中市政府的農業局的環保局的人員就是說在這個情況的疫調的過程中一定是中央跟地方通力合作的那也感謝台中市政府的配合還有相關的單位的配合包括其他部會那我們希望說這個疫調能夠更清楚的釐清的時候找出這個來源找出這個可能的破口那這樣的話以後我們才有機會更精進"},{"start":194.881,"end":222.769,"text":"那这个就是中央地方大家一起来努力本席非常的希望当国人有所质疑隐忧的时候我们政府不管是地方政府中央政府都有义务要让民众放心也让民众可以在有的讯息当中能够让民众了解这是非常重要所以在目前为止我们看到也就是说"},{"start":223.849,"end":244.344,"text":"不管是媒體報導也就是說非典型的病徵到底是不是真的有所謂的非典型病徵我想這個用專業的角度我想請專業人員來回覆會比較恰當是來請就說明報告委員因為他所謂非典型病徵就是因為"},{"start":245.051,"end":268.071,"text":"他的那個不是說他從他那個外觀還有他初步的那個獸醫師的診斷他是以那個放線桿菌胸膜肺炎那這個他會有一樣的症狀所以獸醫師就用這樣的方式去做治療所以在治療過程中他會觀察一個時間讓他確定說他"},{"start":270.433,"end":277.92,"text":"預後結果如何所以後續如果不好那防疫單位他們就會去進一步檢驗"},{"start":279.764,"end":300.137,"text":"這個部長那我們聽到這樣子的一個說明也就是說萬一我們幾乎確認他大概是非洲豬瘟大概但是要等最後科學的證據但是一個問題也就是陳如剛剛專家所說的非典型的這樣病態那未來我們要怎麼樣防範"},{"start":301.28,"end":320.298,"text":"未来我们怎么方法是这个部分就是说如果他他是有非典型的症状的时候那即使是非典型的症状不同的病所产生的病征可能还可以更细致的去做做一些病征的确认所以这个部分我想防炎署跟我们的受医院也会针对这个部分"},{"start":321.039,"end":344.692,"text":"有一個比較好的一個所謂的SOP讓第一線的獸醫師能夠更清楚的去做判試然後寧願料敵從寬有疑似的時候像類似這個有疑似的時候應該同時去做採檢這樣的話才能夠讓我們在第一時間更早發現我想我要謝謝部長也就是剛剛所做的說明"},{"start":345.748,"end":367.953,"text":"我們要怎麼樣在這一次的這個樣態裡頭我們的精進方案就誠如剛剛部長您所說的非典型的症狀那我們的SOP流程要怎麼樣可以更精進讓第一線的人在採取的時候可以更多元而且"},{"start":368.573,"end":386.699,"text":"能夠更廣泛的圍堵那這個本席也希望去研擬這個方案然後告訴執行者告訴縣市政府告訴社會大眾你認同這樣的方向吧我非常認同而且我們覺得這些精進作為也是重要的一環"},{"start":388.24,"end":401.208,"text":"接下來本席也要請教關務署跟農業部那因為到底議員是從哪裡來我相信部長你也說過各種的方向"},{"start":402.829,"end":424.099,"text":"這個非洲豬如果萬一真的百分之百是了現在99點多是那真的是了我們知道非洲豬瘟它不可能是在我們本土自己產生那就是境外那在這樣的情況之下剛剛關務署也特別說了不管是你這個X光機呀或者是大家說的這個"},{"start":426.38,"end":435.931,"text":"警犬啊那這些防疫犬都必須要加強有這個方案那這樣的一個情況我們現在到底議員從哪裡來"},{"start":438.243,"end":457.183,"text":"不過我想就你早上所說明的那現在有沒有更可以明確的方向因為現在還沒辦法確定因為包括因為疫調包括動物包括人特別是那個疫場的人是不是有曾經出國到其他的國家那個疫場是不是有曾經"},{"start":458.644,"end":475.928,"text":"就是私自買進一些可能被遺漏的被X光線遺漏的這些可能的肉品所以這個東西就是可能是人可能是動物然後我們還要做疫調那疫調完了以後我們才能夠確定哪個可能是破口我們才會做更精進的作為"},{"start":476.328,"end":497.336,"text":"我想國人都希望破口到底是怎麼樣我們大家都希望知道那政府也必須要跨部會去討論去研議那我想所有的國人都希望知道破口到底是在哪裡我們才能夠好好的去防範這是很重要因為本席認為當一"},{"start":499.977,"end":516.528,"text":"這個豬瘟發生的時候我們應該要好好的全力的來這個檢疫防疫以及接下來本期要討論的產銷的一個條件因為這不只是這一個億而是關係著我們千億以上"},{"start":517.028,"end":544.72,"text":"的產業也就本席剛開始開會的時候我特別提出這是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以因此本席要強調是說在整個國家的這個邊境線必須要檢討跟加強剛剛我們已經討論過你也同意我們要怎麼樣阻絕可能的疫情來擴散這是民眾需要知道的在房檢的每一個角落每一個環節要怎麼樣好好的"},{"start":545.12,"end":562.436,"text":"去落實那所以包括了關務署這邊我也勿請必須要好好的去檢討怎麼樣去加強這個SOP流程跟經濟那這個是我們現在要聽的我相信所有的人都知道經濟委員會"},{"start":563.777,"end":585.639,"text":"每一個成員都全力的在支持我們的農業支持農業部那尤其是我們的農民我們經濟委員會都全力的在支持所以我也希望在一定要鞏固好守住我們的台灣豬這個是一定非常的重要委長 部長你的方向也是如此吧"},{"start":586.508,"end":603.567,"text":"對 所以我們才會斷然的就是在第一時間我就決定全國性的禁載禁運還有除以養豬停止除以養豬這個是可能傳播的熱戀所以我們把它斷掉了以後傳播電斷掉以後我們才能夠精準的找出那個案場的來源對"},{"start":605.469,"end":617.717,"text":"對 所以一定要好好的守住我們的台灣豬這是非常重要所以因此我們第二期的這個養豬計畫您現在的進度送到行政院了嗎"},{"start":618.738,"end":646.155,"text":"我們已經送到行政院了然後我們我所了解大概這一兩天應該就會合了但是這一兩天合不是因為非洲豬瘟有產生這個狀況才合因為大家都一直在追蹤因為要鎖住我們台灣豬的產業那你預計應該下個禮拜會出來我相信這個禮拜應該就能夠因為整個預算是經過立法院同意動之的但是因為計劃沒合就主要是計劃沒合定我們在動之會比較困擾"},{"start":647.305,"end":658.653,"text":"所以一定要趕快合會 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那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢"},{"start":42.113,"end":55.616,"text":"所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架"},{"start":57.648,"end":77.873,"text":"所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些"},{"start":84.741,"end":106.83,"text":"包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":108.427,"end":114.83,"text":"好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有"},{"start":125.194,"end":136.026,"text":"外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些"},{"start":147.486,"end":171.947,"text":"系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣"},{"start":173.635,"end":189.509,"text":"那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限"},{"start":191.063,"end":213.289,"text":"我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就"},{"start":214.649,"end":240.263,"text":"一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入"},{"start":241.351,"end":244.834,"text":"所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才"},{"start":262.328,"end":276.694,"text":"那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下"},{"start":290.876,"end":316.654,"text":"是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":317.942,"end":337.031,"text":"就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款"},{"start":337.551,"end":339.193,"text":"因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋"},{"start":353.755,"end":358.699,"text":"但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算"},{"start":378.815,"end":384.798,"text":"即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝"},{"start":390.39,"end":415.919,"text":"那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是"},{"start":417.259,"end":425.086,"text":"近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止"},{"start":442.1,"end":466.785,"text":"編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分"},{"start":467.225,"end":494.004,"text":"那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力"},{"start":497.766,"end":511.796,"text":"委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況"},{"start":512.857,"end":532.784,"text":"所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分"},{"start":534.485,"end":539.207,"text":"因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個"},{"start":554.235,"end":561.4,"text":"但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以"},{"start":580.151,"end":583.994,"text":"請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢"},{"start":600.665,"end":618.259,"text":"我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有"},{"start":622.742,"end":636.11,"text":"像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備"},{"start":641.033,"end":644.116,"text":"所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰"},{"start":660.923,"end":683.983,"text":"對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況"},{"start":685.168,"end":688.749,"text":"我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那"},{"start":715.014,"end":716.815,"text":"部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢"},{"start":730.342,"end":744.67,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":747.292,"end":760.523,"text":"事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強"},{"start":762.444,"end":779.137,"text":"所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構"},{"start":781.118,"end":795.845,"text":"將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好"},{"start":797.185,"end":819.963,"text":"好 本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎"},{"start":822.825,"end":828.228,"text":"是 我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。首先要請教部長，之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的部訓機F-5E，是不是在今年7月已經正式除役？"],["顧部長立雄：是除役……"],["李參謀長慶然：去年除役，今年7月除役的是RF-5E、偵察型的F5。"],["林委員憶君：請問一下，準備接替的勇鷹高教機是向誰購買的？有預計要交機幾架呢？"],["李參謀長慶然：我們的主合約是中科院，由中科院向漢翔公司次合約商來自製研發，明年預劃是交66架，今年預劃是交63架，到目前為止，是交了49架，有延遲40架的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：有延遲嘛，對不對？"],["李參謀長慶然：是！"],["林委員憶君：因為快11月了，我想一年都要過去了。當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主，海軍的海鯤號也是一直延宕、都開不出來，連空軍的高教機也交不出來，那我們到底有沒有國防自主的能力？可以請部長回答一下嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分當然就有一些狀況，包括像發動機的承商沒有辦法準時交運，在我們國防自主的發展當中，如果就這些關鍵的項目，像發動機這樣的事項，確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分，就可能發生這樣的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我看勇鷹高教機的交機進度其實是已經落後了，想請教部長，現在勇鷹高教機已經交了幾架？原因為何？為什麼會延宕呢？還有外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些？空軍有沒有去了解整個的原因是在哪裡？還有到底是中科院的問題，還是漢翔的問題，還是有一些不可抗力的因素呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想策略上是漢翔公司外購的一些系統件，包括發動機、環控系統、起落架跟座艙罩爆破系統等等，在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨。"],["林委員憶君：所以是外購的系統，才造成整個都延宕嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望能夠來加強外購料件的查催。"],["林委員憶君：依照整個合約，我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢？除了計罰外，是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢？還有罰款是怎麼計算的？每天罰多少？罰款的金額有沒有一個上限？"],["顧部長立雄：就中科院來講，確實對漢翔有一個計罰的條款，我想後續我們就依約執行，漢翔公司所提出來的一些遲延原因、沒有辦法準時交貨的原因，我們會來了解，在了解之後，雙方就依約執行；如果有需要進行協調的部分，我們會交公共工程委員會來進行協調。"],["林委員憶君：這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去？是會回到國庫嗎？還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢？"],["顧部長立雄：會回到國庫。"],["林委員憶君：整個會回到國庫嗎？確定嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有一部分的比例。"],["李院長世強：有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入。"],["林委員憶君：所以30%是到中科院，然後70%是回到國庫嗎？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["林委員憶君：這些罰款其實應該要繳回國庫，因為這本來就是人民的納稅錢嘛！我在想為什麼是中科院，廠商延遲交貨的罰款，國防部竟然拿得那麼少，而不是全額，我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪，因為中科院是主合約商，如果漢翔準時交機，中科院還是賺錢；漢翔如果延宕交機，中科院還是一樣賺錢，當然這樣的話，不但可以裁罰，而且還可以多賺一筆漢翔的罰款入袋，我覺得天底下怎麼會有穩賺不賠、那麼好的生意，可不可以解釋一下？"],["李院長世強：委員，有關當時委製的整個合約機制，因為中科院是主合約商，所以說它的整個罰款是罰給中科院，中科院再按照罰款的比例，我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫，其他罰款就變成是中科院的業務收入。未來在類似的委製合約上，我們的確可以去檢討這個部分。"],["林委員憶君：所以中科院還是有責任嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：合約的部分應該要看歸責因素，中科院作為主合約商，假設是歸責於它，這個時候就產生合約上的責任；假設是歸責於漢翔，就有漢翔的責任。就這個部分，剛剛院長也提到了，我們可以來進行檢討相關罰款的一個……"],["林委員憶君：因為我想海鯤號測試的延宕，台船都要繳納罰款給海軍，這些錢其實都是進國庫的，我只是想勇鷹高教機如果延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋，如果是這樣的話，我覺得是不是應該全部繳回國庫呢？我本來想建議部長，是不是請國防部邀請相關的部會，就像剛才說的主計總處及公共工程委員會一起重新審視這樣的內容，有沒有不合理的地方、需不需要修正，不然，未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算即將要編列，送來立法院審議，我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們就這個來進行研議。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。部長，根據你們今天業務報告第9頁第1段顯示國軍招募階段獲得率是破百，跟過去幾年一樣，都超過百分之一百，不曉得本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒，還是質疑你們做假、做了一份完美的報表呢？因為在報告第10頁第3段也顯示今年的留營率應該是近年來最高的，所以本席從國防部今天報告的兩項數據整個看起來，國軍好像都不缺人。可是我們看過去幾年志願役的預算員額，從109年到112年這四年間，近年志願役人數的高峰，我們再往後看三年，看到今年為止，編制員額的人數都是雪崩式下跌，光是最近這三年，減少了整整1萬7,460人，等於三年內整個蒸發掉34個聯兵營，難怪國防部的招募率都是年年達標，原來是你們把標準一直在下修，本來100分達不到，但是你們就故意把目標改成60分，就能簡單的達標，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，應該不是這個樣子。因為過去在我來之前，他們預算員額的編制要比實際用的金額要來得高，所以常常會將人員維持費的部分繳回國庫，現在開始我們要覈實編列，如何覈實編列可以請資源規劃司稍微說明。"],["藍司長靜婷：委員好，我是資源規劃司司長。其實最主要的原因，我覺得還是少子化的原因，我們的可徵員額的確是大量減少，的確前兩年我們都面臨到人員維持費繳回的狀況，為了使國防預算能夠做妥適地運用，我們希望能夠覈實編列，所以今年我們更加精準來計算這些數字，包括招募目標，還有離退的常數跟發薪的常數，就是希望能夠更精準的來估算人員維持費的部分。"],["林委員憶君：因為我現在看整個……"],["顧部長立雄：因為過去都編得比較多，現在是已經非常貼近於我們實際的員額數。"],["林委員憶君：對！我們現在照這個問題來分析，如剛才我說的，志願役整體人數呈現下跌……"],["顧部長立雄：不是真的人數減少，而是預算員額，看你要怎麼去編那個……"],["林委員憶君：但是我們現在面對中共武力威脅越來越嚴重，部隊編制員額反而是越來越少，我們花了450億的預算向美國買M1A2T的戰車，這是誰要來開啊？編列2,472億採購F-16戰鬥機，未來有人可以操作嗎？是不是因為美國現在一架F-16都還沒有交貨？請問這個有人可以飛嗎？所以部長，你覺得面對中共的武力威脅，但是我們因為少子化，讓整個員額減少，我們買那麼多裝備，卻把志願役的人力一再一再地砍，這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們實際的在營人數，剛剛已經有提到了，不適服的減少，留營率有增加，我們的招募情況也比原來預期的要好，所以實際的在營人數不是像委員所講的，光看預算員額數，而是要看實際的在營人數，實際的在營人數事實上是沒有減少的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我現在手中有陸軍今年的桌曆，這個封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力戰備，這些戰備、裝備都是哪些單位在用？M1A2T戰車是裝甲，雲豹甲車是機步，阿帕契直升機是航特，這些都是編現比比較嚴重低落的單位，要是沒有軍人，這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以編現比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%，這個是我們一定要努力的，所以針對這些編現比比較低的，特別是戰鬥部隊，我們才會在4月1日調增他們的戰鬥部隊加給，這樣的話，提高一個誘因，我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊編現比比較低的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我是希望國防部必須把這個缺員的問題當作一個長期的問題來改善，既然我們每年都要增加國防預算幾百億來採購裝備，為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢？例如短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪，立法院都已經三讀通過軍人加薪的修法了，行政院還是賴著不給預算。部長，你上任到現在這段時間，志願役的人數越來越少，請問未來花幾百億、幾千億採購這些裝備，誰要來操作？誰要來維修？所以我想請問部長，你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個、跟委員說明，我們實際的在營人數確實不是看預算員額的部分，而是看實際的在營人數，事實上，它並沒有像委員所講的下降這樣的狀況，反而我們現在有提升招募的效益，也提升了留營率，不適服的人數也下降，但是在戰鬥部隊的編現比這個部分，確實我們應該要加強。所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構，這也就是為什麼在4月1日我們除調增志願役加給之外，還要著重在戰鬥部隊加給的部分，也就是有些編現比是比較高，有些編現比比較低，我們要加強整體的薪資結構，將戰鬥部隊的加給調升，這樣整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在哪些部分需要人力增加這樣的目的，我覺得這樣有一個整體的規劃會比較好。"],["林委員憶君：好，本席還是提醒部長，本席其實對你有很高的期待，因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長，你也都很願意推動一些改革，是一個改革的部長，未來改革當然我們也是要讓基層官兵真正的有感，而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續留在整個部隊，一定要真心的去傾聽整個基層官兵的心聲，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們還是會持續的來整體規劃檢討，提升官兵的待遇。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱志偉，邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；委員口頭質詢及未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請國防部以書面於兩週內答復；委員有約定期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（13時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3ef1e512ec2fe7a648c2d94e6d34c5cc9226cb2fc3325232786af387943562f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:37:25 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陽前發言 邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":13.511,"end":39.871,"text":"這幾天傳出了國防部要將分為七年來編列預兆元的軍購特別預算說這個預算大概會高達1.3兆那包括了要向美方購買所謂的防空系統偵測小型無人機火箭跟飛彈還有增加台灣戰時生產與儲存的這個彈藥的能力都有被媒體來提起"},{"start":41.292,"end":62.28,"text":"那這個部長這可能如果是陳真的話他可能是史上最高的軍購特別預算那過去不管藍綠也來執政都沒有提過這麼高的軍購特別預算所以這個數字我們看是超出了國防部四個特別預算的一個總額"},{"start":63.86,"end":92.3,"text":"所以本席在這邊準身請教部長這一筆預算假設如果是真的是1.3兆那麼到底現在媒體是說1.3兆那請教部長到底是會再增加還是會減少還是就這個數字到底是不是真的請說明條例的部分在由行政院進行審查我們確定全案的規劃之後我們會適當時機再對外說明那所以這個是真的"},{"start":93.533,"end":108.291,"text":"現在沒有辦法做這樣的一個確定所以條例是在進行當中條例在從行政院審議中就審議中了 已經審議中了好 那麼媒體更有報導說美方不斷的可能會不斷的要追加項目跟數量"},{"start":109.707,"end":122.74,"text":"那請問是如此嗎因為你現在已經在行政院審議中那媒體這麼報到底是會增加還是沒有增加還是這個數字是如何呢"},{"start":123.427,"end":148.816,"text":"我想我們所有的這些預算包括特別預算都是根據我們防衛作戰的需求來進行編列的那我們針對敵情威脅抖聲我們認為要快速提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性所以我們規劃這個提出特別預算並不是說我們沒有我想我們還是以這個符合我們的防衛作戰需求為前提"},{"start":149.232,"end":167.328,"text":"那換句話說您針對鋼安本席據報導所說的你們的這個不管是條例或者是預算的依據都是陳如鋼愛部長你所說的防衛作戰的需求去執行之對我們都會有一個我們的防衛計畫然後我們都會有我們的一個"},{"start":174.494,"end":186.824,"text":"這些防禦需求的一個需要的這些武器裝備也好或者是相關的這些系統也好有所你的依據那你的目標成效呢"},{"start":188.666,"end":212.753,"text":"目標的成效當然就是我們希望能夠因應這個中國不但對我們的這個加大對我們的台灣的這個武力威脅的這個力度我們能夠在最短時間內完成一個完備的作戰準備完備作戰準備那所以這一筆預算如果照媒體報呢是這個史上最高的預算所以本席也要請教規模很大"},{"start":213.84,"end":228.7,"text":"那必要性無法接受完整的一個監督交付延遲的這個問題看不到他解決的方案所以讓人會憂心是不是會任由美方的欲求"},{"start":231.123,"end":244.23,"text":"我想我們台美雙方對於防衛作戰的需求我們都會不斷的來進行研討那特別預算的部分也不是只有對美的軍購我們也會有委制我們國內的委制來"},{"start":247.192,"end":261.361,"text":"這個創造我們這個一定的經濟效應然後我們也會有商購所以我想這個部分我們會用多元的管道來籌獲我們防衛專案的一個多元的管道來籌建籌劃跟規劃跟執行但是據報導說美國前總統這個彭斯先生他說了"},{"start":271.172,"end":275.561,"text":"美國至今仍有200億美元對台的軍售是延遲的是嗎"},{"start":279.763,"end":302.641,"text":"我想數字已經往下縮減了那現在最主要跟委員報告當然就是剛剛有些已經有委員槌尋的就是有關F16B那還有一些比如像AGM154因為這是在2019年的時候所編列的特別預算2472億元所以請教現在交的進度如何"},{"start":304.81,"end":315.562,"text":"現在我們希望明年就能夠得到交金所以到目前為止有沒有交一家過來目前為止有沒有交我想相關的組裝都"},{"start":318.154,"end":323.941,"text":"好不好 委員 目前都還沒有交過來那為什麼還沒交呢 研製啊所以剛才粉絲特別問部長 您說是那原因是什麼呢因為我們給錢了 但是交不出來那我們的機制呢 應對機制是什麼樣呢在113年之後 他沒有交機的部分我們也都延遲付款這個部分我們有保障我們的權益 跟委員報告"},{"start":339.778,"end":360.569,"text":"來 部長 延遲戶款 這不是我們的目的我們要的 既然我們有軍購我們希望 我們也都願意支持國防但是你交不出來啊那你這個不是只有這個交不出來的問題啊因為你接下來 你研製了之後呢你還有什麼 防衛佈局 訓練期程戰力策略 你都會"},{"start":361.75,"end":385.096,"text":"都會延後啊 都會影響啊 部長會不會我想現在美方正在全力趕工當中我們明年應該是可以獲得交集只是說要全數交應完畢可能有相當部長你這麼回答 明年會交集價我想這個還是要透過跟美方這個確認部長你還是沒有答案給本席因為我們這個是已經約定的"},{"start":388.547,"end":416.399,"text":"那我們應對只有把錢延後交可是這不是國人希望的啊就像剛剛部長您所說的我們是要戰略戰區安全為主那怎麼辦而且會延後到後面剛剛本席所說的這幾項那我方怎麼應對呢因為我們據聞又要編了一個七年1.3兆那如果還是這樣的應對那我們的戰略安全到底在哪裡請部長說明"},{"start":417.871,"end":430.257,"text":"我想我們雙方會有一個定期的管制會議來確認這個交機的這個期程那我們一定會希望美方能夠全力敢攻來加速這個交運"},{"start":432.148,"end":461.141,"text":"部長 我想國家的安全支持國防這是 這個是不變的原則 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謝謝主席 我們請顧部長請顧部長要先喝口水嗎部長好 這個美國參議院的外委會今天通過這個四項挺台的法案那其中包含這個簡化冗長對台軍售程序的豪卒法案讓台灣顯有跟北約盟友同等的待遇"},{"start":28.266,"end":46.176,"text":"那現在就是說這個未來我們這個在軍售的流程會比較縮短那這個我們可以跟這個像北大西洋公園組織日本、澳洲、韓國、以色列等北約PLUS成員享有同等的軍售待遇對不對這個相關的法案裡面是有這樣子的一個要求"},{"start":54.192,"end":64.484,"text":"那請教一下部長台灣享有跟北約盟友有同等的待遇那除了縮短這個軍售的這個程序跟時間之外他的政治上的意涵是什麼"},{"start":66.745,"end":89.188,"text":"我想我們雖然沒有像北約這樣子的一個組織跟美國但是這個彰顯美國對於台海和平穩定的重視所以讓我們享有跟北約盟友一樣同等的待遇顯示他們對於印太整個區域"},{"start":90.469,"end":105.423,"text":"這個維持現狀的一個是他們的一個高度認為是他美國的核心利益的一個展現好 那再請教一下部長那目前有哪些我們的軍售項目可以因為這個豪租法案而受惠的"},{"start":110.801,"end":132.196,"text":"有嗎?報告議員 豪樹法案目前它是規劃把智慧國會它的那個效期中30天壓縮到15天但是就軍售項目來講如果是屬於傳統的大型軍售的話它主要的問題還是在進入預約階段跟產商產製所以這個影響不會太大可是如果就新創產業比如說"},{"start":135.238,"end":154.19,"text":"像最近出現的人工智慧武器等等這些東西它的產值其實比較短或是我們之前買的那個Altius 600這種由新創產業他們做的這種產品這個壓縮或許就可以帶來一部分時間上面的交易那就是跟這個新創的這個軍工產業有相關就對了"},{"start":157.446,"end":185.223,"text":"那我再請教一下部長今年六月美國戰爭部長赫格賽斯他有提到說準備在印太地區建立小型無人機的系統標準確認關鍵零組件的生產來源然後今年八月呢這個八月底參議院的軍事委員會主席維克爾他也說了這個美國跟台灣共同生產武器呢未來將會實現所以呢台灣的角色呢從單純的買方轉為美國國防工業上的重要節點那請教一下部長"},{"start":187.626,"end":196.654,"text":"這個飛鴻的供應鏈包含他們的戰爭部長跟軍委會主席所講的主要是以台美共同合作研發無人機嗎"},{"start":199.314,"end":217.612,"text":"我想台美的共同的一個合作一項緊密當然無人機是其中的一個重點因為美國也要擺脫紅色的滲透的可能性也就是說如果無人機以中國現在的"},{"start":219.674,"end":244.548,"text":"高比例的一個市場的佔有率他這些相關的這些通訊的系統都藏有這個資安跟個資洩漏的疑慮所以當然也都需要來結合這個理念價值相近的國家來共同打造一個非紅供應鏈這當然是其中的一個重要的項目那台灣的角色啦台灣角色那主要是以無人機為主嗎還是有包含其他的"},{"start":247.489,"end":260.436,"text":"沒有警訊與無人機其他的部分我想我們可能不宜公開來做說明那剛剛有提到這個新創我們國防部也有一個國防創新小組DIO"},{"start":262.199,"end":289.194,"text":"然後呢跟美國的一個國防創新單位DIU目前有這一個建立的聯繫的管道嗎因為根據這個聯邦參議院通過的這個國防授權法案也要求美國的國防部的國防創新單位DIU跟台灣的DIO的對應窗口合作那請問一下這個雙方有建立這個聯繫的管道了嗎那有充分的這一個做資訊的交換了嗎"},{"start":290.871,"end":314.82,"text":"有 我們跟這個美國的DIU已經建立了一個交流的機制我們定期會藉由視訊或實體會議來進行交流那時間大概有多久了你說是就是雙方建立管道的時間大概有多久了去年的二月開始從去年二月開始那我們這個DIU是哪時候成立的"},{"start":316.363,"end":322.277,"text":"就我們也是同時間嘛2月所以從去年2月到現在那時間蠻長的喔"},{"start":324.92,"end":351.721,"text":"對 所以我們的已經有在不斷的跟美國的DIU建立這些有關要如何快速的建構這些在市場上這些已經既有的這些商品能夠快速的引進所以我們會有這些原型開發我們會有小批量採購這些都是在陸續的應用這種方式來快速的進行現貨的採購"},{"start":353.522,"end":380.381,"text":"就小批量採購然後進行驗證測試然後如果可以的話我們就可以快速的來進行籌購這些模式可能要比普通的這個建案的程序要都是以軍規商用為主的嗎主要還是以市場上成熟的這些然後可以符合我們防衛作戰需求的好 不好意思主席我再問最後一項這個"},{"start":383.647,"end":400.218,"text":"無人機很重要 但是監察院也講說無人機訓練中心規劃的人數恐怕不足明年接裝軍用商規的無人機操控手訓練量有不足 請問一下這個有改善了嗎"},{"start":401.247,"end":421.832,"text":"有我們要變裝要做簡單說明就好像委員簡單報告就是我們任何軍售或是商售的無人機它整個都是包含到我們的包含到幫我們訓練我們依採購數量的非超手無人機主要就是培育資資還有進階的訓練那這方面其實是已經我說這個人數夠不夠"},{"start":424.913,"end":453.316,"text":"何時可以補足就隨著我們膠裝的數量會幫我們做完訓練所以這方面是沒有問題的目前是夠的嗎我看監察院講說不夠那個已經有向監察院呈付後面我們也在整個購案裡面都有廠商來包含訓練的這個部分部長我10月8號有講說這一個是不是有這個台智齡組件用於這個俄羅斯的武器你說要找這個經濟部就我昨天問經濟部經濟部說你們根本沒有找他兩個禮拜了"},{"start":454.839,"end":472.347,"text":"跟委員報告我想因為這個部分整個的這種零件的這種供應涉及到相當複雜的這個部分就是說你去調查需要時間但是你們連聯絡都沒有聯絡這就不應該了是是是好不好那多久時間可以調查出來"},{"start":474.667,"end":494.999,"text":"我沒有把握這個是不是有辦法調查的出來有啦怎麼沒有辦法這你跟經濟部經濟部說要來找你們啦你不找他們來找你們一個月好不好這攸關台灣的形象我想我們再進一步了解至少要聯絡好嗎好我們去跟經濟部聯絡好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時28分）謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["李委員坤城：部長要先喝口水嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。美國參議院外委會今天通過4項挺臺的法案，其中包含簡化冗長對臺軍售程序的豪豬法案，讓臺灣享有跟北約盟友同等的待遇，未來我們軍售的流程會比較縮短，可以跟北大西洋公約組織，以及日本、澳洲、韓國、以色列等北約plus成員享有同等的軍售待遇，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：相關的法案裡面是有這樣子的要求。"],["李委員坤城：好，請教一下部長，臺灣享有跟北約盟友同等的待遇除了縮短軍售的程序跟時間之外，其政治上的意涵是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們雖然沒有像北約這樣的組織跟美國有簽到這樣的，但是這個彰顯了美國對於臺海和平穩定的重視，所以讓我們享有跟北約盟友一樣同等的待遇，顯示對於印太整個區域的維持現狀，他們高度認為是美國核心利益的展現。"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教一下部長，目前有哪些我們的軍售項目可以因為這個豪豬法案而受惠，有嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我是戰規司司長，跟您報告一下，豪豬法案目前是規劃把知會國會的效期從30天壓縮到15天，但就軍售項目來講，如果是屬於傳統的大型軍售的話，主要的問題還是在進入議約階段跟廠商產製，所以這個影響不會太大。可是如果就新創產業，比如像最近出現的人工智慧武器等等這些東西，產製期程比較短，或是我們之前買的Altius-600這種由新創產業做的產品，這個壓縮或許就可以帶來一部分時間上面的效益。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是跟新創的軍工產業有相關就對了？"],["黃司長文啓：對。"],["李委員坤城：好。我再請教一下部長，今年6月美國戰爭部部長赫格塞斯提到準備在印太地區建立小型無人機的系統標準，確認關鍵零組件的生產來源；今年8月底參議院軍事委員會主席維克爾也說，美國跟臺灣共同生產武器未來將會實現，所以臺灣的角色從單純的買方轉為美國國防工業上的重要節點。請教一下部長，所謂非紅供應鏈，包含他們的戰爭部部長跟軍委會主席所講的，主要是以臺美共同合作研發無人機嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想臺美的共同合作一向緊密，當然，無人機是其中一個重點，因為美國也要擺脫紅色滲透的可能性，也就是說，如果無人機以中國現在這麼高比例的市場占有率，相關的通訊系統都藏有資安跟個資洩漏的疑慮，所以當然都需要結合理念價值相近的國家共同打造一個非紅供應鏈，這當然是其中重要的項目。"],["李委員坤城：那臺灣的角色？"],["顧部長立雄：臺灣的角色當然……"],["李委員坤城：主要是以無人機為主嗎？還是有包含其他的？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有僅限於無人機，但其他的部分，我想我們可能不宜公開來做說明。"],["李委員坤城：好。剛剛有提到新創，我們國防部有一個國防創新小組（DIO），跟美國的國防創新單位（DIU）目前有建立了聯繫的管道嗎？因為聯邦參議院通過的國防授權法案，也要求美國國防部的國防創新單位（DIU）跟臺灣DIO的對應窗口合作，請問一下，雙方有建立聯繫的管道了嗎？有充分地做資訊的交換了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有，我們跟美國的DIU已經建立了一個交流的機制，我們定期會藉由視訊或實體會議進行交流。"],["李委員坤城：那時間大概多久？"],["顧部長立雄：你是說……"],["李委員坤城：就是雙方建立管道的時間大概有多久？"],["顧部長立雄：去年的2月開始。"],["李委員坤城：從去年2月開始，那我們這個DIO是哪時候成立的？"],["顧部長立雄：我們也是同時間，2月。"],["李委員坤城：所以從去年2月到現在，那時間滿長的。"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以我們已經有不斷跟美國的DIU建立有關要如何快速建構……在市場上既有的商品能夠快速地引進，所以我們會有原型開發、小批量採購，這些都是在陸續應用這種方式快速地進行……"],["李委員坤城：現貨的採購？"],["顧部長立雄：就是小批量採購，然後進行驗證測試，如果可以的話，我們就可以快速地進行籌購，這些模式可能相比普通的建案程序，時間上能夠……"],["李委員坤城：都是以軍規商用為主的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：主要還是市場上成熟的、可以符合我們防衛作戰需求的項目。"],["李委員坤城：好。不好意思，主席，我再問最後一項。無人機很重要，但是監察院也講說無人機訓練中心規劃的人數恐怕不足，明年接裝軍用商規無人機的操控手訓練量有不足，請問一下，這個有改善了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有，我們編裝要做……"],["李委員坤城：簡單說明就好。"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員簡單報告，我們任何軍售或是商售的無人機，整個都是包含到幫我們訓練我們依採購數量的飛操手，無人機的部分主要就是培育師資、進階、還有訓練，這方面其實已經……"],["李委員坤城：我是說人數夠不夠？何時可以補足？"],["陳參謀長建義：隨著我們交裝的數量就會幫我們做完訓練，所以這方面是沒有問題的。"],["李委員坤城：目前是夠的嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["李委員坤城：但我看到監察院說不夠。"],["陳參謀長建義：那個已經有向監察院陳復，後面我們在整個購案裡面也都由廠商來做包含訓練的部分。"],["李委員坤城：部長，我10月8號有說是不是有臺製零組件用於俄羅斯的武器上，你說要找經濟部，但我昨天問經濟部，經濟部說你們根本沒有找他，已經兩個禮拜了！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為整個零件的供應涉及層面相當複雜，我覺得……"],["李委員坤城：你去調查的確需要時間，但是你們連聯絡都沒有聯絡，這就不應該了。"],["顧部長立雄：是、是、是。"],["李委員坤城：好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["李委員坤城：多久時間可以調查出來？1個月？"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有把握這個是不是有辦法調查得出來！"],["李委員坤城：有啦！怎麼會沒有辦法，經濟部說要找你們；你不找他們，他們會來找你們。1個月，好不好？這攸關臺灣的形象。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會再進一步了解。"],["李委員坤城：至少要聯絡，好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們會去跟經濟部聯絡。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林倩綺委員，林倩綺，林倩綺委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3b12924b666de24958c2d94e6d34c5cc9226cb2fc332523279aee49d70c0691da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:15:52 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那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊"},{"start":90.706,"end":113.211,"text":"所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是"},{"start":114.772,"end":126.241,"text":"國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦"},{"start":127.29,"end":154.611,"text":"那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好"},{"start":156.724,"end":170.021,"text":"我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的"},{"start":171.092,"end":199.111,"text":"如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位"},{"start":201.852,"end":229.283,"text":"這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解"},{"start":230.003,"end":244.131,"text":"那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意"},{"start":250.575,"end":265.434,"text":"避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞"},{"start":266.983,"end":292.946,"text":"好 谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话"},{"start":293.647,"end":307.731,"text":"那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明"},{"start":309.952,"end":324.499,"text":"那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片"},{"start":325.299,"end":348.855,"text":"那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式"},{"start":349.555,"end":363.776,"text":"就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫"},{"start":364.998,"end":389.077,"text":"可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做"},{"start":389.757,"end":418.167,"text":"那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":418.795,"end":429.311,"text":"我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分"},{"start":431.392,"end":450.505,"text":"著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以"},{"start":451.265,"end":465.961,"text":"現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高"},{"start":467.043,"end":483.779,"text":"這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子"},{"start":484.339,"end":510.116,"text":"所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":512.824,"end":530.601,"text":"應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣"},{"start":532.741,"end":548.892,"text":"因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機"},{"start":551.494,"end":573.327,"text":"重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想"},{"start":574.648,"end":595.691,"text":"我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫"},{"start":596.872,"end":624.59,"text":"但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷"},{"start":625.49,"end":639.327,"text":"怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向"},{"start":641.178,"end":658.059,"text":"那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他"},{"start":658.659,"end":673.5,"text":"他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划"},{"start":674.261,"end":693.423,"text":"那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種"},{"start":694.804,"end":718.914,"text":"用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是"},{"start":719.964,"end":734.189,"text":"我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人"},{"start":735.269,"end":760.735,"text":"還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些"},{"start":762.097,"end":769.032,"text":"這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 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本席有請部長 陳部長我們再請陳部長部長好我想我們的邊境防疫"},{"start":25.173,"end":44.269,"text":"出現了危機大家都覺得應該要想辦法改進但是有些委員一直覺得這跟沒宣費有關我想應該不是所以我今天要就邊境防疫的危機我們覺得防線潰堤的部分要來跟部長來討論我們這一次114年邊境查驗的"},{"start":51.345,"end":74.852,"text":"截至114年10月21號邊境查驗了9507件其中有996件病毒查驗是陽性等於是我們的病毒陽性率高達10%那這是不是已經證明我們邊境防線出現了系統性的潰堤嚴重危險我想不能用這個數據因為"},{"start":76.753,"end":91.104,"text":"我們邊境查驗是看到就是夾帶了以後我們去查驗那查驗的時候有一些不同的國家那這些是針對可能的包括你剛才說10%那這10%裡面也有80%是從氣質它放在垃圾桶裡面我們去檢查的"},{"start":98.63,"end":110.776,"text":"所以它本身就是有可能是肉製品的我們又去查然後有非洲豬瘟陽性的是10%那其中大概有八成是來自中國的部分所以我們現在在機場我們現在在機場的檢驗"},{"start":114.878,"end":138.476,"text":"一般認為是不是有需要改善比如說你高度的仰賴人力那你X光機的判讀可能有一些問題或是什麼我跟委員報告我們從開始啟動整個邊境的防疫是由跨部會不同的機關來處理分幾個層次而且我們一直在精進好沒關係我問重點好了現在有我們這個如果被這個發現是財閥20萬對不對20萬他如果他"},{"start":145.742,"end":165.284,"text":"據入境他就可以不用罰他以後就不能再入境了以後就不能再入境大概有600多 629個人所以我們的這個檢查的制度是不是要調整我們現在對於入境的旅客你是看依據區域是不是高風險區域你才查還是都查"},{"start":166.877,"end":180.885,"text":"都會去查但是高風險區的話我記得我們出國回來好像都不是高風險區的部分是百分之百然後非高風險區的話是用抽查的方式通道的時候嘛"},{"start":182.726,"end":191.971,"text":"那是分兩個部分如果說是在我們檢疫之前那我們有設我們的藍線跟紅線綠線跟紅線那那個部分是提醒如果在那個地方如果有檢驗這個違規的產品的話你丟棄那麼你在進來海關的時候你不會被罰我說的問題是你綠線給他自主性的走綠線但實際上他搞不好夾帶進來那這樣到海關的時候他一定被罰"},{"start":209.46,"end":224.758,"text":"那只要租的製品被查出來他到海關他怎麼會被查到我們有兩道防線啦我們的叫做預防性我們的是設在前面叫預防性那如果民眾配合在那個時候守規矩的話可能在後面被海關截下來的時候就不會被罰"},{"start":226.363,"end":243.966,"text":"你海關你用什麼檢查X光對啊 所以我們就說你這X光可能人力的配置我們分兩個層次一個層次就是說我們在入關之前我們會提醒你如果主動丟棄的話我們是不罰的可是一旦入關你又被查到的時候那你就會被罰"},{"start":244.767,"end":265.834,"text":"然後另外委員一直關心的就是X光機的部分的判試我們現在也盡快用AI化就是AI化的方式去進行因為我時間的關係那我想請教我們是否應該擴大WOAH國際合作共享病毒株序列可以做到超前預測變異風險讓我們的篩檢試劑跑在病毒前面這個可以嗎"},{"start":270.16,"end":295.355,"text":"我想這個部分我請我們的受益所來回應因為比較技術面的問題是有關那個病毒株序列的事情我們都會公佈在上面我們也因為分享在網路上我們能做到超前預測嗎基本上比較不容易對 因為這病毒它也是DNA病毒變異本身就比RNA病毒還要小變異的機率比較小而且它病毒的基因序列又比較大"},{"start":296.135,"end":322.81,"text":"所以我们不容易做到预测病毒会往哪个方向去是不是可以看看仿效其他国家有更先进的我们想办法来做那接着最后最后一个问题就是有关我们画质数据的部分画质数据这个部分部长我们应该要能够有及时的机动的监测而不是事后才发现现在像我很快举例像我们现在"},{"start":323.75,"end":341.61,"text":"銀行他不是有很多警示帳戶嗎只要有有異常的他就會跳出來現在你們對畫質數據有沒有動態的數據只要畫質車你的數據重量你隨時你等於有一個機制那發現異常他就跳出來我們現在就有這個機制"},{"start":344.313,"end":358.058,"text":"現在什麼時候我們畫製廠本身的這些後台的數據那我們有設定不同規模的時候它的不同百分比的異常死亡那就變成異常 異常的話它自動跳出來這一次怎麼會那麼慢"},{"start":359.691,"end":384.724,"text":"這就是我們有 我們才一直提醒可是也是事後耶 也是事後因為當你發現那個死亡的豬隻的重量車輛的數量異常的時候你應該馬上就可以發現對 這一次就是因為異常 我們看到異常你們也是事後嘛 不是即時的監測算是即時的 就是即時的算是即時 然後我們也通報地方政府地方政府同步也可以看到這個數據啦"},{"start":386.254,"end":399.58,"text":"好 所以我們還是希望預防勝於菩薩我們大家一起來努力包含邊境的防疫還有我們這個即時的監測數據我想我們會持續的精進也不會把這個強度降低好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時12分）謝謝主席。本席有請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。我們的邊境防疫出現了危機，大家都覺得應該要想辦法改進，但是有些委員一直覺得這跟媒宣費有關，我想應該不是，所以我今天要就邊境防疫的危機、防線潰堤的部分跟部長討論。截至114年10月21號邊境查驗了9,507件，其中有996件病毒查驗是陽性，等於病毒陽性率高達10%，這是不是已經證明我們邊境防線出現了系統性的潰堤，有嚴重威脅？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不能用這個數據，因為邊境查驗是看到有人夾帶了以後，我們去查驗，查驗的時候，有不同的國家，這些是針對可能的國家……包括你剛才說10%，這10%裡面又有80%是棄置……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是陽性。"],["陳部長駿季：被放在垃圾桶裡面，我們去檢查的。它有可能是肉製品，所以我們去查，然後有非洲豬瘟陽性的是10%，其中大概有八成是來自中國。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一般認為現在機場的檢驗是不是有需要改善？比如高度仰賴人力，X光機的判讀可能有一些問題或是什麼，會不會？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從開始啟動整個邊境的防疫，就由跨部會不同的機關來處理，分幾個層次，而且我們一直在精進，強度沒有降過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，我問重點好了。現在如果被發現是裁罰20萬，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是20萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果他拒入境，就可以不用被罰20萬。"],["陳部長駿季：他以後就不能再入境了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：以後就不能再入境？"],["陳部長駿季：大概有629個人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以檢查的制度是不是要調整？現在對於入境的旅客是依據區域，是不是？高風險區域才查，還是都查？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！所有的都會去查，但是高風險區的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我記得我們出國回來好像都是自主性的拿那個牌子。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，高風險區的部分是百分之百，非高風險區的話是用抽查的方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在通道的時候嘛。"],["杜署長麗華：那是分兩個部分，如果是在我們檢疫之前，我們有設綠線跟紅線。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，綠線跟紅線。"],["杜署長麗華：那個部分是提醒，如果在那個地方有檢驗違規產品的話，你丟棄，那麼你在進來海關的時候不會被罰。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我說的問題是，你給他自主性的走綠線，但實際上他搞不好會夾帶進來。"],["杜署長麗華：這樣到海關的時候，他一定被罰，只要豬的製品被查出來就是罰20萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：他到海關，他怎麼會被查到？"],["杜署長麗華：我們有兩道防線，我們的是設在前面的，叫預防性，如果民眾配合，在那個時候守規矩的話，可能在後面被海關截下來的時候就不會被罰。"],["徐委員欣瑩：海關用什麼檢查？"],["杜署長麗華：X光。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，所以我們就說你這個X光可能人力的配置……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們分兩個層次，一個層次就是我們在入關之前會提醒你，如果主動丟棄的話，我們是不罰的，可是一旦入關，你又被查到的時候就會被罰。另外，委員一直關心的就是X光機的判識，我們現在也儘快地AI化。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有想辦法加強？"],["陳部長駿季：就是用AI化的方式處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間的關係，我想請教，我們是否應該擴大與WOAH國際合作，共享病毒株序列，可以做到超前預測變異風險，讓我們的篩檢試劑跑在病毒前面？這個可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我請我們的獸醫所來回應，因為是比較技術面的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是。"],["鄧所長明中：有關病毒株序列的事情，我們都會公布在上面，也因為分享在那個網路上，我們也是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們能做到超前預測嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：基本上不容易。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不容易？"],["鄧所長明中：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：想盡辦法吧！"],["鄧所長明中：因為這個病毒是DNA病毒，變異本身就比RNA病毒還要小，變異的機率比較小，而且它病毒的基因序列又比較大，所以我們不容易做到預測病毒會往哪個方向去發展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是可以仿效有更先進方式的其他國家，想辦法來做？接著最後一個問題是有關化製數據的部分。部長，我們應該要能夠即時、機動的監測，而不是事後才發現。我很快舉個例，像我們現在銀行不是有很多警示帳戶嗎？只要有異常的，它就會跳出來。現在你們對化製數據有沒有動態的數據？只要有化製車，你這個數據、重量等於有一個機制，隨時發現異常它就跳出來，不會是事後才發現。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在就有這個機制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在？什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在化製場本身的這些後臺的數據，我們有設定不同規模時，它有不同百分比的異常死亡，就會變成異常，異常的話它會自動跳出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那這次怎麼會那麼慢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們有，我們才一直提醒……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是也是事後耶！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：也是事後，因為當你發現死亡豬隻的重量、車輛的數量異常的時候，你應該馬上就可以發現，不是等到比較後面。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這一次就是因為異常，我們看到異常，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們也是事後，不是即時的監測。"],["陳部長駿季：算是即時的，就是即時的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：算即時的？"],["陳部長駿季：算是即時，然後我們也會通報地方政府，地方政府也可以同步看到這個數據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們還是希望預防勝於撲殺。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們大家一起來努力。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含邊境的防疫，還有我們這個即時的監測數據。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續地精進，也不會把這個強度降低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員陳超明、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席請部長還有海軍司令部參謀長以及我們中科院院長請顧部長 海軍參謀長還有中科院院長就備巡台 謝謝是 王委員好好 部長好"},{"start":18.468,"end":30.964,"text":"部長我們現在除了發展無人機之外我們也發展無人艇那麼而且呢按照我們現在包含我們軍方的需求超過1300艘的無人艇而且"},{"start":33.948,"end":51.479,"text":"又為了因應2027年的可能就是有可能的這個中共犯台的一個準備所以除了軍方之外呢而且我們海巡現在也說有這個無人艇的一個需求"},{"start":52.239,"end":76.715,"text":"所以這個需求量是非常非常大的那我在這邊直接想請教因為呢除了我們現在的這個廠商我們無人艇現在未來就是我們的需求量這麼大但是呢我們的廠商一直鎖定在台船龍德還有中信其實非常的有限那這個呢在透過經濟部呢台灣的這個遊艇業者因為台灣是遊艇王國"},{"start":82.359,"end":96.913,"text":"那所以呢在遊艇業者呢也希望能夠就是說一起能夠讓除了這個旅遊娛樂性的那麼他們也可以來加入這樣的一個生產那麼我所看到的"},{"start":97.594,"end":112.839,"text":"像中科院為什麼請院長來中科院也認為因為我們未來的需求事實上呢是可以讓這樣的遊艇業者來參與事實上我知道目前已經有遊艇業者已經開發出已經開發出這個無人艇了而且是軍用的一個無人艇所以我想請問部長還有我們的海軍那個參謀長"},{"start":126.092,"end":138.201,"text":"未來我們在發展無人艇的部分可不可以讓我們再增加我們的一個供應量把台灣這樣的一個產業讓它的產業鏈能夠擴大然後讓遊艇業也能夠來參與我們不管是軍方或者海巡的相關的無人艇的生產"},{"start":149.967,"end":167.226,"text":"我想政策面上面來看的話我們落實這個在地生產這個是我們的政策因為這個才能夠具有一定的防衛韌性那無人機也好無人艇也好確實如委員所講他都現在來看都有不具有一定的產業規模"},{"start":168.527,"end":189.41,"text":"那麼現在要轉入到這個軍用也好或者軍用商規也好或者是相關的這些我們有一定的這個對外甚至能夠輸出的這個能量來講我們國軍作為一個最大的需求者那我們確實是要來落實這樣的一個在地研發生產的能量"},{"start":189.966,"end":215.575,"text":"所以在地研發 因為我剛剛講說其實我們目前你們所鎖定的事實上是非常有限所以以台灣的遊艇業者來講話事實上也可以納入嘛 對不對因為我們日後一定會採取一個公開招標的一個程序然後進行甄選所以他們假設本來是坐遊艇那要轉入的話那或許在技術面上面他可能需要找到一些廠商來"},{"start":216.555,"end":225.917,"text":"其他的這些有這樣的技術來合作那當然沒有錯他一定要符合相關的規定這沒有錯他如果能夠有一個技術授權或合作對所以我是希望說這個是一個就是一個在地生產然後呢而且我們明明放在一個台灣一個遊艇王國另外那個部長請問一下川普最近說2027台海之間不會發生戰爭您同意他的說法嗎"},{"start":246.03,"end":262.819,"text":"我想川普總統我看到他的講話還是說提到他說美國的軍力壯大所以我看到的是這樣子所以我認為美國的政策在安全議題上面一直是以實力作為基礎的我們現在不是談美國政策我們現在並不談美國政策而是談他說2027台海沒有發生戰爭的這個問題"},{"start":273.144,"end":289.171,"text":"對 你們的評估是在看待這件事情 我們都是評估它相關的預警增後然後不管是早期的還是更廣泛的一個密駐它的一個動向所以你不完全接受它的預期"},{"start":290.273,"end":302.76,"text":"我們不會以這麼簡單的一個講法來做一個結論我們都是以 我們都會川普的說法有他個人的樂觀我們都會面對中國的這個軍事威脅不斷的提升然後研判各種的徵喉來掌握這個全盤的狀況好 那另外我請教就是現在我們關注的就立刻就是很快的會有川習會"},{"start":315.367,"end":318.53,"text":"那麼川普在川習會之前突然提出來一個2027他認為沒有台海沒有發生戰爭的危險或可能性那我其實覺得這個是他即便川習會的他的一個技術上的說法也說不一定另外現在呢因為中美貿易大戰而中國現在對全世界祭出了西土戰反正互相卡脖子"},{"start":344.631,"end":347.253,"text":"那而我們影響我們的問題就是我們F16V的戰機已經嚴重的延宕到目前為止我們訂製66架也只有兩架出廠在美國出廠它根本還沒有交機那麼接下來超過60架"},{"start":363.948,"end":390.567,"text":"要想要在2027年之前交機其實是看起來就已經非常高難度所以部長根據國際的情勢現在竟然中國發起了稀土戰管制稀土的出口那麼會不會讓整個F16V的戰機的交機更為嚴當你們的評估是什麼"},{"start":391.957,"end":417.542,"text":"包委員 這個之前也回過委員的這個提問那目前的主要的原因是在當時COVID-19之後的人力以及供應鏈上的問題那目前是沒有提到美方也沒有提到有這個稀土的問題我們這樣評估的話它的主要是在人力上那目前已經逐漸改善 那以上那你們認為說明年全數交機可能嗎難度很高"},{"start":420.23,"end":428.732,"text":"難度 所以幾乎確定又要跳票會往後延 因為前面的這個會延多久 你們現在所聽到的應該會延多久呢"},{"start":429.295,"end":453.948,"text":"我們現在目前還在評估當中因為他的目前之前缺工的狀況也逐步在改善我們每個月都有在開這個會議這為什麼要問呢就是因為我們基本上還是以2027認為是在台海之間比較危險的嘛沒有錯嘛對不對可是如果到明年交機要跳票然後當然我們要有預估一個時程等到爆發戰爭之後你再來有用嗎"},{"start":455.687,"end":465.34,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該要有比較具體的具體的你延宕要延宕到什麼時候是不是我們可以承受的一個"},{"start":467.258,"end":487.533,"text":"我覺得這一點事實上是很重要的否則到現在66架然後一架的影子都沒有有啦 兩架還在美國然後剩下的影子都沒有我覺得這個是很難對台灣的所有的納稅人還有所有就是關心台海之間會不會發生危機的人的交代 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時7分）謝謝主席，請部長、海軍司令部參謀長以及中科院院長。"],["主席：請顧部長、海軍參謀長，還有中科院院長就備詢臺，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。部長，我們現在除了發展無人機之外，也發展無人艇，按照現在軍方的需求，需要超過1,300艘的無人艇，而且為了因應2027年中共可能犯臺的準備，除了軍方之外，海巡現在也說有無人艇的需求，所以這個需求量是非常非常大的。我在這邊想請教，未來我們對無人艇的需求量這麼大，但是我們的廠商一直鎖定在台船、龍德還有中信，其實非常的有限，因為臺灣是遊艇王國，臺灣的遊艇業者除了旅遊娛樂性的功能之外，也可以加入這樣的生產，像中科院也認為，由於我們未來的需求量很大，也可以讓遊艇業者參與。事實上，我知道目前已經有遊艇業者開發出無人艇了，而且是軍用的無人艇，所以我想請問部長還有海軍參謀長，未來在發展無人艇的部分，可不可以再增加我們的供應量，讓臺灣這個產業的產業鏈能夠擴大，讓遊艇業也能夠來參與，不管是軍方或者海巡相關無人艇的生產？"],["顧部長立雄：從政策面來看的話，我們落實在地生產，這個是我們的政策，因為這樣才能夠具有一定的防衛韌性，無人機也好，無人艇也好，確實如委員所講的，現在來看都不具有一定的產業規模，現在要轉入到軍用也好，或者軍用商規也好，或者是相關的這些，我們有一定的對外，甚至能夠輸出的能量來講，我們國軍作為一個最大的需求者，那我們確實是要來落實在地研發生產的能量。"],["王委員鴻薇：在地研發，我剛剛講到，其實你們目前鎖定的非常有限，以臺灣的遊艇業者來講的話，事實上也可以納入，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們之後一定會採取一個公開招標的程序，然後進行甄選，所以他們假設本來是做遊艇，要轉入的話，或許在技術面上，他可能需要找到一些其他的廠商來技術合作。"],["王委員鴻薇：那當然，沒有錯，它一定要符合相關的規定，這沒有錯。"],["顧部長立雄：它如果能有一個技術授權或合作……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我是希望這個是在地生產，而且明明臺灣是一個遊艇王國。","另外，請問一下部長，川普最近說2027臺海之間不會發生戰爭，您同意他的說法嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我看到川普總統的講法是提到，他說美國的軍力壯大，所以中國……我看到的是這樣子，所以我認為美國在安全議題上面的政策一直是以實力作為基礎的一個嚇阻……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我們現在不是談美國政策，我們現在並不談美國政策，而是談他說2027臺海沒有發生戰爭的這個問題。"],["顧部長立雄：就國防部的立場在看待……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，你們的評估是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：在看待這些事情，我們都是評估它相關的預警徵候，不管是早期的還是更廣泛的密注他的動向，做長期的研析……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你不完全接受他的預期？"],["顧部長立雄：我們不會以這麼簡單的一個講法來做結論，我們都會料敵……"],["王委員鴻薇：川普的說法有他個人的樂觀……"],["顧部長立雄：我們都會面對中國的軍事威脅不斷的提升，然後研判各種的徵候來掌握全般的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，另外我請教，很快會有川習會，川普在川習會之前突然提出來他認為2027臺海沒有發生戰爭的危險或可能性，我覺得這個也許是他因為川習會的一個技術上的說法也不一定。另外，現在因為中美貿易大戰，中國對全世界祭出了稀土戰，互相卡脖子，影響我們的問題就是我們F-16V戰機的交機已經嚴重的延宕，到目前為止，我們訂製66架，也只有2架在美國出廠，根本還沒有交機，接下來超過60架想要在2027年之前交機，其實看起來是非常高難度。所以部長，根據國際的情勢，現在既然中國發起了稀土戰，管制稀土的出口，那麼會不會讓整個F-16V戰機的交機更為延宕？你們的評估是什麼？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，這個之前也回復過委員的提問，目前主要的原因是當時在COVID-19之後的人力以及供應鏈上的問題，目前美方也沒有提到有稀土的問題，依據我們的評估，他的問題主要是在人力上，目前已經逐漸改善，以上。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們認為明年可能全數交機嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：難度很高。"],["王委員鴻薇：難度很高，所以幾乎確定又要跳票？"],["李參謀長慶然：會往後延，因為前面的……"],["王委員鴻薇：就你們現在所聽到的，應該會延多久呢？"],["李參謀長慶然：我們目前還在評估當中，因為他之前缺工的狀況也逐步在改善，我們每個月都有在開會。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼我要問呢？因為我們基本上還是認為2027臺海之間是比較危險的，沒有錯嘛！可是如果明年交機要跳票，當然我們要預估一個時程，如果這些等到爆發戰爭之後再來，有用嗎？對不對？所以我覺得你們應該要有比較具體的預估，交機延宕要延宕到什麼時候？是不是在我們可以承受的範圍？我覺得這一點是很重要的，否則到現在66架連1架的影子都沒有！有啦！2架還在美國，然後剩下的連影子都沒有，我覺得這個是很難對臺灣所有的納稅人，還有所有關心臺海之間會不會發生危機的人有所交代，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d35a296ae2e48ff281cbd78a287304ef9f226cb2fc332523273b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:03:34 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謝主席 我們請陳部長我們再請陳部長我也好"},{"start":23.308,"end":42.242,"text":"好部長好首先要跟你說辛苦了因為其實這個事情是10月21號也就是前天晚上你們接到這件事情通報然後短短三天內其實農業部的反應非常迅速那也馬上成立了前進的協調所那我們杜文貞次長也馬上的到台中去進行協助了"},{"start":42.822,"end":45.144,"text":"那我覺得你們真的非常辛苦今天還臨時要被叫來這個變更議程然後突然要來這邊備詢那我覺得這當然其實我們農業部的整個流程然後對於整個危機應變的能力都是很強的那現在看起來是因為台中市府確實面臨一些困難"},{"start":60.956,"end":74.332,"text":"那我覺得農業部必須要給予更多協助因為很顯然他們沒有能力處理這些事情包括10月10號發生第一例死亡結果到了10月20號過了10天之後他們才到現場進行採驗那這個中間整整10天"},{"start":78.177,"end":94.427,"text":"沒有進行採驗的這個問題我覺得非常大這是第一個我認為你們一定要積極的督促台中市政府趕快把過去這些鬆掉的螺絲趕快補上的問題第二個這個沒有採驗的原因你們必須要跟他們了解"},{"start":94.847,"end":116.147,"text":"第二個接下來焚化的問題我也認為問題很大你們已經很明確的建議他們應該要以焚化來處理結果他們堅決要用掩埋那這件事情我們農業部跟我們可不可以跟環境部協調一下看他們到底可不可以協助他們能用焚化就用焚化的而不是塗增多餘的風險"},{"start":118.329,"end":138.963,"text":"繼續讓這件事情可能擴大我跟委員報告因為台中的豬隻我們不准他移到其他縣市然後我們在昨天中央應變中心的會議也明確的說希望是用粉化的部分那粉化的部分如果豬隻太大的話我們也調度了一些所謂的生物處理機讓他們去把這些病死豬的部分就做部分的處理再進到粉化"},{"start":139.423,"end":151.41,"text":"那環境部也跟昨天也跟地方的環保局在開會那我相信這個問題最後台中市政府應該也會朝向我們的決議是往焚化的方向去處理好 謝謝部長因為我在這邊認為很顯然他們從採驗到後來的焚化的處理都是沒有能力的所以我覺得農業部的責任就變得更重大我們只能盡力的來協助 盡力的挽救"},{"start":165.379,"end":189.021,"text":"那至於另外一個部分我也要提醒很顯然他們在廚餘再利用的部分是出現問題的所以他們很顯然可能沒有落實你們說的必須要90度以上然後一個小時的持續烹調然後持續攪拌這樣子的處理方式所以廚餘再利用很顯然有人沒有落實這個我們就一定要來精進一定要來更嚴格要求這個部分好嗎"},{"start":189.582,"end":198.866,"text":"這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對 這是我希望農業部接下來要協助的對"},{"start":217.495,"end":239.481,"text":"第二個這個焚化爐的問題焚化的問題拜託你們也進入協助第三個液調現在看起來台中市自己有在液調但是看起來液調的效率也不彰所以也拜託液調部分也請你們直接協助以及這28頭豬現在已經揉入市場的也請你們直接協助了我拜託農業部直接協助"},{"start":240.201,"end":261.026,"text":"會 我想這也是為什麼我們在台中成立前進應變所的原因就是直接來協助地方政府補足地方政府量能不足的地方好 那這28頭豬流入市場也請你們幫他們查清楚吧那我要講一下說這件事情真的影響非常大因為到昨天看到我們台中市長都還在講說要購物節拚經濟但卻沒有提到說這整個豬肉的產業鏈造成的"},{"start":268.018,"end":295.962,"text":"损失可能是上千亿元不止今天看到我们隔壁的这个双月就说卤肉饭要停卖了我们高雄南丰卤肉饭也要停卖了影响所有店家所有消费者所有猪农高达上千亿的产值都是接下来都在这样的威胁当中所以这件事情真的不可不慎然后包括说你们可能接下来禁运载可能的天数要强达15天我相信很多人都很紧张"},{"start":297.33,"end":316.665,"text":"我想這是必要的措施這樣的話才能夠讓我們的員工更精準掌握當然我也同意必須要面對敵人面對這麼風險這麼高的病毒我們必須要料敵從寬那最後我請一下關務署我在這邊想要講一下邊境管制的事情部長先請回座"},{"start":317.586,"end":344.693,"text":"那署長我在這邊請教一下因為我認為邊境管控才是這解決這整件事情的根源必須要杜絕這一些來自疫區可能的風險可是其實一直以來我都很常接到民眾說又有人從中港澳違規攜帶疫區來的肉製品包括說在蝦皮上面販賣中國的肉粽包括說在一些地方的社團販賣一些中國的月餅"},{"start":345.473,"end":360.453,"text":"然後甚至是來路不明的一些中港澳的豬肉的製品都流竄在網路上這個是我一直以來都有接到的那很顯然這些都是違規 我也知道公安部署一直都有在查所以從2018年到現在每年幾乎都1000多件"},{"start":361.774,"end":374.259,"text":"這樣子的違規的從中港澳來的疫區的製品那當然我也希望幫你們呼籲民眾所以我每次都會一再的呼籲民眾說拜託不要再從疫區帶這一些這麼風險這麼高的肉製品進來了可是"},{"start":379.681,"end":404.865,"text":"關務署我們這邊還已經量能提的這麼高了邊境管控的量能幾乎從進口的郵包進口的貨運都百分之百少X光了我們還能做什麼啊可不可以暫停停運從這一些來自疫區的肉製品報告委員暫停停運這些來自特定國家的這些物品這涉及很多部會還有相關法制的問題容我們再研議一下"},{"start":406.087,"end":412.075,"text":"我覺得非常時期需要非常手段我在這邊提出這麼這是一個很嚴厲的一個政策沒有錯可是現在台灣豬的風險就是已經"},{"start":418.874,"end":436.296,"text":"正在面临非常严峻的考验我们希望我们继续成为亚洲唯一三大猪瘟得非异国这是一个得来不易的荣耀要归于所有的农业部所有关务署的同仁这是你们辛苦多年以来的成绩可是现在却因为一个破口"},{"start":437.438,"end":461.377,"text":"造成這麼大的危機 大家的心情都非常的沉重所以這件事情到底怎麼解決 我認為邊境管控就是一個關鍵啊去年沒宣費被刪了六成去年邊境管控的經費被動刪了四千萬今年我們當然一樣會全力支持你也希望所有立法院同仁支持你們可是這些非常手段 該實施就實施吧"},{"start":463.62,"end":479.918,"text":"呃 是 了解委員的意思那因為牽涉到問題跟法治非常的廣 廣泛還是要 我們要審慎研議一下好 那也拜託這些網路上來路部您的包裹嚴加查緝那當然 我們現在海關已經全力動員是好 謝謝署長 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謝謝主席有請央行楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":25.973,"end":50.265,"text":"总裁好 首先非常感谢央行在9月初的时候有发表一份投影片提到美元稳定币与新台币稳定币相关的议题说明您最近也有提到说台币稳定币有发行空间本席要真的是非常感谢您有这样的一个开放的思维空间我也在我的社群媒体都说非常感动也先在这里先谢谢杨总裁"},{"start":51.705,"end":71.655,"text":"我想裡面這個說明裡面有一段有簡述其實就是貨幣跟穩定幣之間相互的影響事實上我們也看到在這裡面虛擬世界的經濟的穩定幣占比美元已經高達九成這取得了壟斷性的地位這個圖是從你們的說明報告裡面出來的"},{"start":75.057,"end":89.954,"text":"那我就想說其實我們不希望說實體世界我們有台灣非常強盛的貿易我們有新台幣可是虛擬世界裡面如果沒有新台幣可能會不會影響我們的金融穩定那您自己"},{"start":89.974,"end":107.551,"text":"之前的說法是比較開放的但是我們在今天的業務報告裡面又沒有看到這個我想問一下有沒有機會我們之後有更多來自央行的對於穩定幣的一些建議我們會在相關的報告裡頭還會再看到呢會啦"},{"start":108.812,"end":110.093,"text":"因為金管會它的一個虛擬資產服務法這個就進入已經是行政院在審查要進來給我們立法院裡面就會有一張是純粹是就穩定幣的一個所以這個會"},{"start":131.605,"end":149.689,"text":"這個待會我們會再問一下這個總裁我想問現在這個虛擬世界都是美元啦90%以上的話這會影響我們新台幣的跟台灣的這個金融穩定跟金融韌性啊可能潛在影響還是會有啦對不對所以也是為什麼您之前開始比較對穩定幣的說法比較開放了是這樣對嗎"},{"start":152.69,"end":168.017,"text":"基本上我們也希望這個就是說那個彭主委他也認為就是說是有發展空間那中央銀行也是認為就是說是因為如果說我們的一個金融資產把它數位化"},{"start":169.242,"end":171.464,"text":"把它代幣化代幣化了以後第一個我們虛擬資產以新台幣計價的它就會比較蓬勃的發展這是第一個第二個在虛擬資產以新台幣來計價的會比較蓬勃發展以外穩定幣新台幣以新台幣計價的穩定幣它才比較有發展的空間"},{"start":196.284,"end":219.766,"text":"我們的想法是這樣太好了謝謝因為其實我們看到報告裡面還有金管會的報告都有提到其實證券期貨業保險業三業合計其實1到8月稅前盈餘6000億元較去年同期減少2000億其實就是受到台幣升值的影響未來如果新台幣的流通減少確實就有可能在匯率上面"},{"start":220.927,"end":238.875,"text":"會有所不利啦所以我相信您應該也理解說跟美元這樣的深度綁定也許不太算是一個健康的方向未來如果能夠透過台幣穩定幣或者這個所謂代幣化的這個市場我們台灣的加入應該可以持續的來緩解這樣的一個狀態你同意嗎"},{"start":242.069,"end":257.143,"text":"可以啦我想就是說這個今晚會他要推出這個當然我想也有他的原因啦那在這裡呢這個法呢我想中央銀行一定會"},{"start":258.504,"end":280.779,"text":"會來協助他們太好了我先這個肯定央行因為早期老實說我也是CBDC的支持者但是後來看了非常多的分析報告我們對於零售型的CBDC確實有一些疑慮所以我也予以肯定說央行目前是認為零售型的CBDC沒有急迫性這樣的做法我們是肯定的"},{"start":281.539,"end":302.334,"text":"那我想接下來也還是要提到您剛剛說央行會支持這個虛擬資產服務法那其實這裡面有一個章節就是穩定幣那我們現在看到啦從今年的十月份法國銀行巨頭要發行這個Follow Micra的這個穩定幣然後呢日本的三大銀行也聯手要發行了"},{"start":302.934,"end":331.047,"text":"那我們現在就真的是意識到其實穩定幣已經在貿易裡面非常受到重視我們台灣有167萬家的中小企業裡面對接國際的賣家我們其實有看到貿易協會10月20號公布的調查近半數受訪台灣企業認為穩定幣將在貿易中扮演重要的角色想要展開出息應用的近一成"},{"start":331.607,"end":345.938,"text":"海外台商也有將近一成已經在使用穩定幣而調查結果認為穩定幣對貿易的重要性的預估是接近50%認為是很重要的那我想未來這個穩定幣我們應該要採取在供鏈上面發行"},{"start":347.239,"end":371.168,"text":"那未來也許央行會不會有所擔心說在RWA形式的這種穩定幣會不會可能跟我們的貨幣會有一些互動的關係會不會央行會去討論發行的總限制量或者管制可收發的一些機制央行內部有沒有跟金管會這裡有討論到這個部分到目前為止是"},{"start":372.548,"end":389.345,"text":"因為還是在行政院的所以我們會持續跟今晚會來討論這個問題好 最後一點點時間因為近期我們看到我們的實體貿易其實佔台灣可能超過八成"},{"start":390.126,"end":416.334,"text":"那實體貿易就會受到我們的關稅還有各種這個國與國關係的影響那我們就必然要把很多的經濟或者我們的貿易的這個金融轉到數位的世界來保存我們的韌性跟主權那我們現在看到這樣的事情已經發生了整個實體產業又要被抓去其他的國家也許數位經濟確實是我們的一條活路跟活水"},{"start":417.014,"end":440.287,"text":"那我們這個根據報表我們看到下周是財委會就要排我們的虛擬資產服務專法還有執法的報告但是您剛剛提到央行支持可是行政院到現在一直還沒有送進立法院那我想這個卡應該不是卡在央行吧應該不會啦那有沒有這個總裁有沒有知道大概什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":440.987,"end":450.916,"text":"行程上能不能再加快一點這個程序我沒有非常的掌握不過這個整個主管機關還是在金管會"},{"start":451.618,"end":471.564,"text":"好那穩定幣的章節央行這邊應該沒有在這個阻擋啦不會不會絕對是不會不會在這個我們中央銀行是持開放的一個立場好那我們的金融韌性金融主權跟數位經濟的發展就有勞總裁跟我們大家一起來協作我們希望大家合作啦好謝謝謝謝總裁謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1732,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（12時）謝謝主席，有請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["葛委員如鈞：總裁好。首先非常感謝央行在9月初的時候發表一份投影片，提到美元穩定幣與新臺幣穩定幣相關的議題說明。您最近也有提到臺幣穩定幣有發行空間，本席真的非常感謝您有這樣的一個開放思維空間，我也在我的社群媒體都說非常感動，也先在這裡謝謝楊總裁。我想這在說明裡面有一段簡述，其實就是貨幣跟穩定幣之間的相互影響，事實上我們也看到虛擬世界的經濟穩定幣占比，美元已經高達九成，取得了壟斷性的地位，簡報上的圖是從你們的說明報告裡面出來的，其實在實體世界的臺灣有非常強盛的貿易，我們有新臺幣，可是虛擬世界裡面如果沒有新臺幣，會不會影響我們的金融穩定？您之前的說法是比較開放的，但是我們在今天的業務報告裡面又沒有看到這個，我想問一下，我們之後有沒有機會看到更多來自央行對於穩定幣的一些建議，我們會不會在相關的報告裡頭再看到呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：會，因為金管會的虛擬資產服務法已經進入行政院審查，之後要進來立法院，裡面就會有一章純粹是就穩定幣的……"],["葛委員如鈞：了解。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這是會的。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個待會我們會再問一下總裁。我想問，現在虛擬世界都是美元，90%以上，這會不會影響我們新臺幣和臺灣的金融穩定跟金融韌性？可能潛在影響還是會有，對不對？這也是為什麼您開始對穩定幣的說法比較開放，是這樣對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，基本上我們也希望……彭主委也認為有發展空間，中央銀行也認為，如果我們的金融資產數位化，把它代幣化，代幣化了以後，第一個，我們以新臺幣計價的虛擬資產就會比較蓬勃發展，這是第一個。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：第二個，以新臺幣計價的虛擬資產會比較蓬勃發展以外，以新臺幣計價的穩定幣才比較有發展的空間，我們的想法是這樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝。因為我們看到報告裡面，還有金管會的報告都有提到，證券業、期貨業、保險業三業合計，1月到8月的稅前盈餘6,000億元，較去年同期減少2,000億，其實就是受到臺幣升值的影響，未來如果新臺幣的流通減少，確實就有可能在匯率上面會有所不利，我相信您應該也理解，跟美元這樣的深度綁定，也許不太算是一個健康的方向，未來如果能夠透過臺幣穩定幣，或者代幣化的市場，我們臺灣的加入應該可以持續緩解這樣的狀態，您同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以啦，我想金管會要推出這個當然也有他的原因，關於這個法，我想中央銀行一定會來協助他們。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，我先肯定央行，因為老實說早期我也是CBDC的支持者，但後來看了非常多的分析報告，我們對於零售型的CBDC確實有一些疑慮，所以我也予以肯定，央行目前認為零售型的CBDC沒有急迫性，對於這樣的作法，我們是肯定的。","接下來也還是要提到您剛剛說的，央行會支持虛擬資產服務法，其實這裡面有一個章節是穩定幣，我們現在看到，今年10月份，法國銀行巨頭要發行MiCA這個穩定幣，日本的三大銀行也聯手要發行了，我們現在真的意識到，其實穩定幣已經在貿易裡面非常受到重視，我們臺灣有167萬家的中小企業，其中對接國際的賣家，我們也有看到貿易協會在10月20號公布的調查，近半數受訪臺灣企業認為穩定幣將在貿易中扮演重要的角色，想要展開初期應用的有近一成，海外臺商也有將近一成已經在使用穩定幣，而調查結果認為穩定幣對貿易重要性的預估接近50%，他們認為是很重要的，我想未來穩定幣應該要採取在公鏈上面發行，未來也許央行會不會有所擔心，這種RWA形式的穩定幣會不會跟我們的貨幣有一些互動的關係？央行會不會去討論發行的總限制量，或者管制可收發的一些機制？央行內部有沒有跟金管會討論到這個部分？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，因為還是在行政院，所以我們會持續跟金管會來討論這個問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，最後一點點時間，因為近期看到我們的實體貿易其實占臺灣可能超過八成，實體貿易就會受到我們的關稅還有各種國與國關係的影響，我們就必然要把很多的經濟或者我們的貿易金融，轉到數位世界來保存我們的韌性跟主權，我們現在看到這樣的事情已經發生了，整個實體產業又要被抓去其他的國家，也許數位經濟確實是我們的一條活路跟活水。根據報表，我們看到下週四財委會就要排我們的虛擬資產服務專法還有子法的報告，但您剛剛提到央行支持，可是行政院到現在一直還沒有送進立法院，我想這應該不是卡在央行吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該不會。"],["葛委員如鈞：那總裁知不知道大概什麼時候可以送進來？行程上能不能再加快一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於這個程序，我沒有非常的掌握，不過整個主管機關還是在金管會。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，穩定幣的章節，央行這邊應該沒有阻擋？沒有太多問題吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會，中央銀行是持開放的立場。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們的金融韌性、金融主權跟數位經濟的發展就有勞總裁跟我們大家一起來協作。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們希望大家合作。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請中央銀行於一週內以書面答復；委員另行要求期限者從其所定。","本次會議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3426c6ee1d9f92b238c2d94e6d34c5cc9226cb2fc332523273b1f0242bc217b355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:59:21 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這個"},{"start":205.168,"end":217.043,"text":"本席也跟顧部長確認彈藥庫整建的意思是在既有的彈藥庫設施進行改善還是會在新的地方來設立全新的彈藥庫"},{"start":218.636,"end":242.706,"text":"我們在這一次的特別預算如果您問的是這個這兩年期的特別預算都是屬於整建的部分至於新建的部分它期程比較長沒有放在這一次兩年期的特別預算這是屬於另外的本席要提醒要是新設代號庫本席希望國防部做好跟附近社區住戶的民意多做溝通"},{"start":243.989,"end":268.915,"text":"我們都新建的部分都是一定要按這個法定的程序來進行近日有媒體提問說美國總統川普是否會為了以習近平達成協議而犧牲美國對台灣的支持川普總統則沒有正面上的回覆提問那今年六月民主基金會民調指出67%的民眾"},{"start":272.869,"end":299.922,"text":"認為美國是將台灣作為與中國對抗的籌碼而且66%的民眾認為美國總統川普會為了美國的利益來出賣台灣喔有三分之二的人喔那美國是否是可靠的盟友民眾對美國是擔憂的我已經希望國防部不要忽視要認真的來看待部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":302.125,"end":310.315,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得在安全這個議題上面維持整個印太區域的和平穩定是美國的核心利益美國"},{"start":312.553,"end":335.398,"text":"總統川普也一直在說明就是他絕不容許這個戰爭的發生而且我看他的講話也提到最近是講說美國軍力強大所以我想他還是以實力作為一個嚇阻的基礎而且在印太有任何的戰事發生也就是說現狀被破壞就現狀沒辦法維持的話對美國來講是"},{"start":338.106,"end":352.151,"text":"一個核心利益的一個喪失所以我想美國一定在安全的議題上面是不可能讓步的我希望如此啦據瞭解 空軍戰機飛行員的訓練由三階段三種機改為三階段兩種機兩機種"},{"start":355.692,"end":367.87,"text":"那未來T-34C這個初級的教練機要採延售的方案還是要向外採購初級的教練機國防部何時能夠定案"},{"start":368.956,"end":391.753,"text":"所以報告委員依據我們現在T-34型機初級教練機使用的狀況它大概在121年到127年會有接受的這個狀況那我們現在也尋商也不排除做自製研發的這個方式甚至有做租賃的方式我們在各方面都有做一些目前的一些準備跟研究"},{"start":392.133,"end":418.791,"text":"因為審計部的報告裡面指出空軍這個永英高校機啊這個訓練機發動機受損頻繁三年內發生了148次的故障影響妥善率啊那當初就是因為F5戰機老舊汰換改成永英的戰機來替換那本期是希望國防部啊"},{"start":419.792,"end":425.97,"text":"妥善解決永英教練機頻繁故障的問題"},{"start":426.943,"end":427.043,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時59分）是不是請顧部長？"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。我請教，因為近日屢屢傳出國軍弟兄的意外事件，不論是成功嶺打靶意外或軍官墜樓，請問國防部，根據調查結果，國軍的自傷原因是因為工作壓力占大多數，還是感情因素占大多數？"],["顧部長立雄：我是不是請政戰局先做個說明？"],["史局長順文：委員好，我是政戰局局長。跟您報告，今年對於自我傷害發生的原因比較多是情感跟家庭的一些因素。我們對於官兵的心理照護其實是非常重視，所以包含了每一件事情發生之後，對於他個人的部隊適應狀況，還有家庭情況、個人的財務情感，我們都會務實檢討，避免下一個案子再發生。"],["林委員德福：部長，國防部要做好官兵心理輔導，那請問國軍的心理健康照護方案，提供每個人每年6次民間免費心理諮商的服務，是否有相關統計可以說明，今年1到8月有多少人使用國軍心理健康的這些照顧方案？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是今年2月13號才啟用，到9月30號為止是4,375人次。我想我們這些，他可以獲得這樣的補助，協助解決官兵的心理困擾，我覺得有一定程度的助益。"],["林委員德福：我是希望要落實。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想應該是要維護官兵的心理健康，我們就會儘量提供這些多元的輔導。"],["林委員德福：這個很重要。我再請教，彈藥庫是鄰避設施，民眾不希望住家附近有彈藥庫，可是沒有彈藥庫則無法發揮國防的戰力保家衛國。過去在2023年3月，邱國正前部長在立法院備詢的時候表示，臺美正在研議是否將原本放在日本、韓國、菲律賓的儲備彈藥改存放到臺灣。時間拉回到現在，媒體報導，顧部長說，強化國土防衛韌性部分，第一是相當重要的彈藥庫整建。那我請問顧部長，彈藥庫整建是否跟存放美國的這個儲備彈藥有關？"],["顧部長立雄：我想還是我們自有的彈藥存量必須要充足，而且我們也買了很多新式武器裝備，所以需要有足夠的這些庫儲設施。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！這個本席也跟顧部長確認，彈藥庫整建的意思，是在既有的彈藥庫設施進行改善，還是會在新的地方設立全新的彈藥庫？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在這一次的特別預算，如果您問的是這次兩年期的特別預算，都是屬於整建的部分；至於新建的部分，期程比較長，沒有放在這次兩年期的特別預算，這是屬於另外的。"],["林委員德福：本席要提醒，要是新設彈藥庫，本席希望國防部做好跟附近社區住戶民意的溝通。"],["顧部長立雄：我們新建的部分，都是一定要按法定的程序進行。"],["林委員德福：這個很重要。近日有媒體提問，美國總統川普是否會為了與習近平達成協議而犧牲美國對臺灣的支持？川普總統則沒有正面回復提問。今年6月民主基金會民調指出，67%民眾認為美國是將臺灣做為與中國對抗的籌碼，而且66%民眾認為，美國總統川普會為了美國的利益出賣臺灣、有三分之二的人。美國是否是可靠的盟友？民眾對美國是擔憂的，本席希望國防部不要忽視，要認真看待。部長，你有什麼看法？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我覺得在安全這個議題上面，維持整個印太區域的和平穩定是美國的核心利益，美國總統川普也一直在說明，就是他絕不容許戰爭的發生。而且我看他的講話也提到，最近是講美國軍力強大，所以我想他還是以實力作為嚇阻的一個基礎。而且在印太有任何的戰事發生，現狀被破壞，就是現狀沒有辦法維持的話，對美國來講是一個核心利益的喪失，所以我想美國一定不可能在安全的議題上面讓步。"],["林委員德福：我希望如此。據了解，空軍戰機飛行員的訓練，由三階段、三機種改為三階段、兩機種。未來T-34C的初級教練機要採延壽的方案，還是要向外採購初級教練機，國防部何時能夠定案？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，依據我們現在T-34型機初級教練機使用的狀況，大概在121年到127年會有屆壽的狀況。我們現在也詢商，不排除自製研發的方式，甚至用租賃的方式，我們目前在各方面都有做一些整備跟研究，未來……"],["林委員德福：因為審計部的報告指出，空軍勇鷹高教訓練機發動機受損頻繁，三年內發生了148次的故障，影響妥善率，當初就是因為F-5戰機老舊汰換，替換成勇鷹的戰機，本席是希望國防部妥善解決勇鷹教練機頻繁故障的問題。"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員簡單報告，這個已經澄清了，因為當時在臺東飛的時候，我們機場有非常多的設施在進行施工，包含跑道的整修，以及F-16準備接機的一些工程設施，所以造成飛機發動機吸入外物，這個也都澄清了，在後來已經完全都改善了。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d326bb9b0bc1cf3fe1cbd78a287304ef9f226cb2fc3325232755b575a02889fffd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:56:03 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那我現在提到就是有這個獸醫專家提到無錫港有沒有可能因為你們有港口的關係然後就是因為這個都是我們境外把關我們有沒有去討論或研究到可能有這樣的一個路徑"},{"start":145.238,"end":161.549,"text":"我想我們在中央應變中心針對境外防堵的部分境外的走私就是一個非常重要的一個工作是由海委會這邊來負責的然後光務的部分是針對行李的部分所以不同部會有相關的一個部分我知道像剛才大家特別提到就廚餘的部分那麼可能它還有些後續的問題但是要提醒不要排除走私豬肉也就是我們境外管理出現了一個漏洞"},{"start":173.416,"end":188.641,"text":"而使得這個非洲豬瘟長驅直入直接到了這個台灣讓我們出現了這樣的一個首次的案例另外呢剛才在提到說10月14號現在很多在追究10月14號為什麼沒有採檢"},{"start":191.222,"end":199.988,"text":"但是現在我發現我們的次長杜汶珍次長也提到說這個在經過獸醫的這個檢查的時候也承認這是一個非典型的病態這是一個非典型病態因為它沒有出現傳統我們所知道非洲豬瘟會出現的什麼流鼻血啦或者耳朵瘀青等等的症狀"},{"start":216.619,"end":232.512,"text":"所以對於這種非典型的病態是不是在這一次確實存在然後未來我們要怎麼樣的去預防因為我們接下來我們也怕再有類似這樣的狀況然後我們沒有辦法防堵到"},{"start":233.733,"end":252.533,"text":"謝謝 在我們那個主委回答之前我們今天會議中午不休息一直到我們議程結束謝謝 請說回答我想第一個說明就是我們杜市長所回應的不是說我們農業部因為現在外面都說我們農業部說沒辦法去分辨這個是從台東市政府動保處那邊所說到的"},{"start":252.853,"end":264.787,"text":"那的確非洲豬瘟跟現在的部分的這些那叫做肺腺桿菌的肺膜炎它的病徵是很類似的部分確實很類似所以它是一個非典型的部分所以確實獸醫沒有辦法沒有辦法分辨出他沒有辦法立刻診斷出這個是"},{"start":271.454,"end":296.07,"text":"疑似非洲豬瘟但是有一個重要的就是我們會去監控後面的死亡的異常如果有異常的時候其實就應該更有警惕的部分所以這也是我們在做疫調的主要的調查原因因為它後面的話是它有連續的五天的部分都是異常死亡的部分那異常死亡就不能當作一般的非典型的部分去處理它必須去做一些比較強勢的處理"},{"start":297.211,"end":317.942,"text":"那到底是市主拒絕還是凍飽處的人員沒有去做那這個都是在疫調的過程中現在市主能夠拒絕嗎市主能拒絕嗎他不能拒絕如果說凍飽處要強勢去採檢的話市主是不能拒絕的所以我們現在法律上是市主不能拒絕的嗎是"},{"start":319.54,"end":344.918,"text":"完全是不能拒絕的嗎 因為你今天受醫所 他所調查出來拒絕的話他會罰款所以我們現在是說 你的意思是說地方政府是可以用罰款的方式 是嗎但是我覺得像這種 遇到這種類似的因為受醫師也應該知道這些非典型的症狀非洲豬瘟跟哪一些非典型的症狀的疾病是一樣的 如果他有"},{"start":345.638,"end":370.109,"text":"但是他如果說一隻兩隻那還好他如果異常死亡而且連續的異常死亡的時候就應該那我最後問一句我不要佔用大家時間目前我們還有我們除了這個養豬場之外在其他的養豬場目前有沒有出現也有異常死亡的我們到目前為止到目前為止的關聯場他的並沒有異常死亡的現象"},{"start":370.509,"end":379.705,"text":"到目前為止現在就是目前是鎖定在就是這個養豬場沒有 我們鎖定在這個養豬場還有它周遭三公里的還有它的化製車走經過的這些關聯場"},{"start":382.931,"end":410.073,"text":"除了這個關聯廠之外我想全台灣的豬農都非常緊張目前在通報上有沒有這個目前類似別說大量死亡的沒有但是我還是希望這個對這些非典型的病態因為我覺得這個因為第一線這是我們第一次嘛大家可能經驗不足會經驗不足的問題所以在非典型病態的部分是不是應該要有一些精進的方案的提出"},{"start":410.213,"end":437.704,"text":"我想透過這次疫調一定有更多的可以精進的作為那所有的所有的這些防疫人員都非常辛苦的那但是他相關的有一些判斷上面來講也沒有辦法很及時但是我想我們會針對這一次的疫調過程中會設計出一個新的機制讓我們的一個新的SOP好不好讓所有第一線的人員能夠更快的因為我們是以"},{"start":438.925,"end":443.798,"text":"維護台灣的產業為主這個我想我們大家一起努力中央地方要一起努力好 了解 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時56分）謝謝主席。我請陳部長，還有關務署。"],["主席：請陳部長、彭署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長辛苦了。我想請教，有關於來源的部分，現在很多都指向廚餘，但是我也有看到有獸醫專家提到，因為現在我們國內的豬肉價格很高，所以不排除有走私豬肉進口。這裡面提到有可能有從中國或者是越南走私豬肉，因為它的地點梧棲港有地緣上的關係，而且在這一次有關於它的病毒株，也有專家提到它的排序跟越南的非洲豬瘟類似。所以我想請教部長還有關務署，因為這麼多年來我們守住了，所以這一定從境外來的。我想請問一下，除了廚餘的感染之外，在我們現在的追查裡面，來自於境外部分，有沒有可能是來自於走私豬肉？至於他講它的排序是跟越南的非洲豬瘟類似，我想請問是不是有這樣的訊息？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，所有的來源，我們一定要經過完整的疫調才能夠確認，不過非洲豬瘟的導入，一定是從境外的，它有可能是國外這些含有豬肉製品進到廚餘系統……"],["王委員鴻薇：這些我都了解，大家談了很多。"],["陳部長駿季：然後有可能人員的部分，也有可能走私的部分，它有不同可能的原因。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我們不排除是有境外走私豬肉而造成的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得都有可能，所以我們疫調的時候會去了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我現在提到有獸醫專家指出梧棲港，有沒有可能因為是港口的關係？因為這都是攸關我們境外把關，我們有沒有討論或研究到可能有這樣的一個路徑？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在中央應變中心針對境外防堵的部分，境外的走私就是一個非常重要的工作，是由海委會這邊來負責的，然後關務的部分是針對行李的部分，所以不同部會有相關的分工。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，像剛才大家特別提到廚餘的部分，可能它還有些後續的問題，但是要提醒的是，不要排除走私豬肉，也就是我們境外管理出現了一個漏洞，使得非洲豬瘟長驅直入，直接到了臺灣，讓我們出現了首次的案例。另外，剛才一直提到10月14日，現在很多在追究10月14日為什麼沒有採檢，但是我發現杜文珍次長也提到，在經過獸醫檢查的時候，也承認這是一個非典型的病態，因為沒有出現我們所知道傳統非洲豬瘟會出現的流鼻血或者耳朵瘀青等等的症狀。所以對於這種非典型的病態，是不是在這次確實存在、未來我們要怎麼樣預防？因為接下來，我們也怕再有類似這樣的狀況，然後我們沒有辦法防堵到。"],["主席：在主委回答之前，先宣告今天會議中午不休息，一直到議程結束，謝謝。","請做回答。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個說明，杜次長所回應的不是我們農業部，因為現在外面都說是我們農業部說沒辦法去分辨，這是從臺中市政府動保處那邊所收到的，的確非洲豬瘟跟現在肺腺桿菌的肺膜炎，它的病徵很類似。"],["王委員鴻薇：確實很類似？"],["陳部長駿季：很類似，所以它是一個非典型的部分，但是它還可以……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以確實獸醫沒有辦法分辨、沒有辦法立刻診斷出這是疑似非洲豬瘟？"],["陳部長駿季：委員，但是有一個重要的，就是我們會去監控後面的死亡異常，如果有異常的時候，其實就應該更警惕，所以這也是我們在做疫調的主要調查原因。因為後面它有連續5天都是異常死亡，異常死亡就不能當作一般非典型的部分去處理，必須去做一些比較強制的處理。到底是飼主拒絕，還是動保處的人員沒有去做，這個都是在疫調的過程中會處理的。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在飼主能夠拒絕嗎？飼主能拒絕嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：他不能拒絕，如果動保處要強制採檢的話，飼主是不能拒絕的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在法律上規定飼主是不能拒絕的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：完全是不能拒絕的嗎？因為今天獸醫所調查出來、診斷出來……"],["陳部長駿季：拒絕的話，他會被罰款。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思是，地方政府是可以用罰款的方式，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：但是我覺得像遇到這種類似的，因為獸醫師也應該知道這些非典型的症狀，非洲豬瘟跟哪一些非典型症狀的疾病是一樣的，如果是1隻、2隻，那還好，如果是異常死亡，而且連續異常死亡的時候，就應該更加警惕。"],["王委員鴻薇：我最後問一句，我不要占用大家時間。除了這個養豬場之外，在其他的養豬場目前有沒有出現也有異常死亡的現象？到目前為止。"],["陳部長駿季：到目前為止的關聯場，並沒有異常死亡的現象。"],["王委員鴻薇：到目前為止？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前就是鎖定在這個養豬場？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們鎖定這個養豬場，還有它周遭3公里的，還有它的化製車經過的這些關聯場。"],["王委員鴻薇：除了這個關聯場之外，我想全臺灣的豬農都非常緊張，目前在通報上有沒有類似的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，目前沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：譬如這種大量死亡？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我還是希望對這些非典型的病態，因為在第一線，這是我們第一次，大家可能經驗不足，會有經驗不足的問題，所以在非典型病態的部分，是不是應該要有一些精進方案的提出？"],["陳部長駿季：我想透過這次疫調，一定有更多可以精進的作為。所有這些防疫人員都是非常辛苦的，但是有一些相關的判斷上來講，也沒有辦法很及時，但是我想我們會針對這一次的疫調過程中設計出一個新的機制，讓我們第一線的同仁……"],["王委員鴻薇：一個新的SOP，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，讓新的……"],["王委員鴻薇：讓所有地方第一線的防疫人員……"],["陳部長駿季：讓第一線的人員能夠更快的因應，因為我們是以維護臺灣的產業為主，我想我們大家一起努力，中央跟地方都要一起努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，了解，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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戒慎恐懼好 這個我們也要自己檢討我們也自己檢討我這幾天看到一個媒體報導媒體報導就是針對你們對這個等一下我看一下這個不動產跟這個金融投資業對"},{"start":76.94,"end":97.605,"text":"他們的對經濟成長貢獻度是那當然央行有龐大的這個研究團隊你說這個營造業跟不動產的貢獻度加起來只有0.13 0.07跟0.06%那跟這個組織總數跟中研院做出的包括營建一個不動產業占GDP的比例對"},{"start":99.056,"end":119.581,"text":"他加起來超過12%遠超過6.42的金融業那這個生產餘額呢生產的毛額營造業加起來跟不動產業加起來有2.6兆也超過金融業的1.6兆當然他說的他的標題比較比較這個聳動說央行別亂開地圖炮你知道這什麼地圖炮"},{"start":126.778,"end":153.553,"text":"媒體的評論一樣不要亂開地圖炮什麼叫地圖炮就對某個群體進行攻擊對某個群體它有一個特定的立場因為這立場不見得是客觀的那當然相關的工會也會提出相關的數據反駁您對於所謂營造業 營建業跟不動產業對我國經濟的重要性為什麼差距如此之大"},{"start":155.069,"end":176.051,"text":"您的看法呢基本上我跟委員報告我們做這一份報告主要的我們不是針對他針對我們的事實上我們剛剛我也有回答我們的委員當時我們是看到就是說在很多的"},{"start":176.471,"end":179.733,"text":"報導裡面都說火車那個不動產業是我們的經濟的火車頭這是第一個 第二個呢有一篇社論呢他也這麼認為但是呢我們覺得中央銀行根據那個數據我們分析的結果應該我們只是最主要我們只是說要呈現那個數據給大家來我們沒有就是說要"},{"start":204.771,"end":217.997,"text":"後來也就是說看到我們的Q&A說實在的委員我也跟你說一個這個就好像是故事"},{"start":219.082,"end":220.983,"text":"事實上當時我們在記者會記者會的時候本來我是要把這個護錄PO出去的"},{"start":237.19,"end":261.888,"text":"那後來我跟我們同事講就是說這個PO出去不好啦這個好像會讓人家我打斷您的話我打斷您的故事因為我有很多故事要跟你說這個你要發表任何數據一定要是要很客觀不是你們央行的研究團隊的結果你要參考主席總書商中心院相關的數據來做一個橫頻的報道所以我建議這是溝通的問題我不是說你的數據有問題"},{"start":265.771,"end":279.857,"text":"但是跟其他的單位包括公會跟中經院跟主計總署提出的數據是不一樣的而且差別很大所以造成民眾的混淆不不不 那應該都是一樣的應該大家都是用那個主計總署的數據"},{"start":283.585,"end":310.371,"text":"主計總署的數據呢2024年主要行業明目生產毛爾占明目GDP的比重總裁我先不跟你討論我有空再跟你討論因為我這邊還有10個故事要跟你說我只講了一個故事所以為什麼你的一言一行你的這個記者會也好或者你公布的這個新聞稿也好所有的行業都戰戰兢兢包括金融業也是一樣好 這個選擇性信用管制從2020年12月以來第7波"},{"start":311.511,"end":339.059,"text":"你們最調整的主要的檢討或者調整的主要的依據或者主要的參考是什麼是不是這個不動產貸款集中度我看你們報告裡面從去年的最高點37.61一年降到今年8月的36.71要降到什麼樣水準你才會覺得有可能去調整或者是檢討這個選擇性信用管制或者放鬆"},{"start":340.799,"end":344.441,"text":"還是有其他的數據參考包委員 事實上我們參考的數據不是只有集中度還有一些的指標還有哪些指標 你能不能說明一下包括就是說我們不動產的它的一個成長率住宅的貸款的成長率是怎麼樣建築融資的成長率是怎麼樣整體的不動產產業的融資的成長率是怎麼樣這個都是我們觀察"},{"start":369.617,"end":388.171,"text":"大概有幾項指標你們大概說一下大概幾項指標這些都是還有包括你的那個房價的指數這個都是我們觀察的指標還有他的交換他的那個交易的那個動數你能不能把所有你做決策或怎麼樣你做的決策的參考的這個依據你能不能有一個清單給我們做參考"},{"start":390.339,"end":392.2,"text":"我們觀察的 我可以列出給委員就說哪些指標是我們觀察的事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":414.426,"end":436.148,"text":"我們在我們的報告裡面也都有揭露一些總裁你這個用詳細書面去提供給邱志偉最後一個30秒就是說你們這個報告裡面銀行自主管理不動銅的貸款優先存儲自用住宅跟這個都跟危老配合政府政策的貸款"},{"start":437.069,"end":453.77,"text":"那央行已經給銀行自主彈性調整空間是什麼叫自主彈性調整空間這個太抽象你們具體的我想這個不會很抽象這個銀行都知道它不會是抽象有沒有各個銀行不同的標準"},{"start":455.146,"end":459.227,"text":"還是有一定適用的標準不是說一定適用只要我們認為就是說他給我們揭示給我們的這些數據我們認為就是說他是因為他為什麼他會超過他的目標是因為他對首購他對都更為老對社會住宅的那個什麼的那個而導致他的這個"},{"start":479.351,"end":502.297,"text":"指標他的那個指數呢他的那個成長率高於他的目標各個銀行的自主彈性標準不一樣不一樣啊他不一樣就看他的目前狀況因為他每一個銀行他的一個策略他的一個貸款的一個不太一樣我建議您再去跟所有針對這些國有銀行啊你們給他自主彈性調整空間你要去review一下有些銀行真的貸款的比登天還難"},{"start":503.297,"end":529.168,"text":"所以比當天還難啊那是他自己的practice你已經有自主財信但他還是一樣有些銀行是很難貸款所以你大概也要去銀行很難貸款是因為銀行他有5P他也要follow他的5P啊那如果說這個借物他不符合他的5P那當然他是很難貸款啊這個蠻複雜的"},{"start":533.189,"end":533.209,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1662,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時51分）謝謝主席，有請中央銀行楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：總裁早。總裁，我覺得從一些民意來看您的相關政策作為，一般產業對您是非常敬畏，所以你的一言一行跟你所發表任何言論，通常沒辦法從從容容。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["邱委員志偉：戒慎恐懼。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們也要自己檢討，我們也自己檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：我前幾天看到一個媒體報導，針對你們對不動產跟金融投資業，他們對經濟成長的貢獻度，當然央行有龐大的研究團隊，你說營造業跟不動產的貢獻度加起來只有0.13%，0.07%跟0.06%，跟主計總處跟中研院做出的包括營建業跟不動產業占GDP的比例，它加起來超過12%，遠超過6.42%的金融業。生產的毛額，營造業跟不動產業加起來有2.6兆，也超過金融業的1.6兆。當然它的標題比較聳動，說央行別亂開地圖炮，你知道什麼是地圖炮？媒體的評論，央行不要亂開地圖炮，什麼叫地圖炮？就是對某個群體進行攻擊、對某個群體有一個特定的立場，因為這個立場不見得是客觀的，當然相關的工會也會提出相關的數據反駁，您對於所謂營造業、營建業跟不動產業對我國經濟的重要性，為什麼差距如此之大，您的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我跟委員報告，我們做這一份報告，主要的我們不是針對它，事實上剛剛我也有回答我們的委員，當時我們是看到很多的報導裡面都說不動產業是我們經濟的火車頭，這是第一個。第二個，有一篇社論它也這麼認為，但是中央銀行根據那個數據我們分析的結果，最主要我們只是要呈現那個數據給大家來……"],["邱委員志偉：可以呈現數據，跟……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有說要……後來看到我們的Q＆A，說實在的，委員，我也跟你說一個故事，事實上……"],["邱委員志偉：說故事？我沒那麼多時間。"],["楊總裁金龍：就是當時我們在press 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海空號海空號是extra的不在除了besides海空號以外我們還要編一兆一兆就是台灣之盾這兩個是不是一樣一樣的東西"},{"start":163.393,"end":165.996,"text":"這兩個是不是一樣的東西就是為了要建構台灣之盾所以編了一照我都聽你講話了你總是要回答一下嘛是跟委員報告我想我對你多好啊我們現在要快速提升的是不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性"},{"start":181.334,"end":193.619,"text":"防空系統不是只有針對台灣之盾不是只有針對台灣之盾但是台灣之盾在其中之裡面會是其中的一個重要的主要是防空系統是不是我們的整個防空會包括反彈反擊跟反無人機還有整合啊整合系統啊像巴西斯坦可以贏印度那就是一個整合系統的問題啊"},{"start":210.236,"end":224.395,"text":"所以我們會以這個強調這個高機動性跟高存活力的平台作為一個優先的考量所以主要是防空系統嘛相圍是一定的空優嘛 是不是我不知道我們現在有沒有空優啦"},{"start":225.876,"end":240.98,"text":"我想我們現在的這個特別預算的這個內容應該還沒有經過核定我想但是我剛已經講了我們是以提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛人性沒有會有包含這個你來這裡就要盡量講講到不能講為止不能夠說我盡量不講急一下急一下講一點那第二個小問題就是問你是不是全數舉債總可以講白"},{"start":255.811,"end":260.447,"text":"這個部分是主計局來說明一下主計局啊 長官啊"},{"start":261.38,"end":266.881,"text":"人家外面罵得要死啊 現在我們去哪裡人家就說立委要怎麼監督的國防部的組織局 欸 那個顧部長啊你左邊這一位啊 你要好好的去監督一下對不對 椅子買五萬塊一張 辦公桌兩百多萬一張唉 給我們賣到要死了 賣到臭頭啊連我們立委出去都被罵 所以我們都沒有好好監督啊"},{"start":287.486,"end":296.472,"text":"對不對我們的主席多優秀把人抓出來要沒有抓出來就是按照你們原來講的啊能騙就騙 能框就框啊都這樣 對不對來講一下是不是都舉菜回答我是的 各位"},{"start":303.357,"end":326.482,"text":"都百分之百舉債一兆一債是什麼概念啊我們一年中央政府總預算三兆喔三分之一的預算就舉債一兆除以兩千三百萬一個人要付多少錢你可以想一個人這個不是一年的特別預算那幾年七年七年一兆那就是七年平均一年就是也是一千多億啊"},{"start":329.991,"end":334.354,"text":"1400億 1500億左右啊好 第二個問題啊 我很快把它講完喔我今天接到好多電話就在抗議啊內政部其實抗議你啊說這個不當兵的那個原來BMI啊去兩年前才修訂了 到3535以上不用當兵現在把它提到45"},{"start":358.828,"end":375.718,"text":"那你對他講說替代役 這個部長 你講替代役那你要講一下吧 你現在提高這麼多這個讓很多的 很多可以來的一個小胖子或者是比較體型比較圓潤的通宵當兵的變這個樣子"},{"start":378.583,"end":403.657,"text":"我想是不是軍醫局檢要說明我是軍醫局局長跟委員報告因為我們常備役的體位沒有改變維持原來的體位那我們增加的是替代役那替代役從BMI講清楚所以35到45都是替代役是不是是替代役35到45都是替代役那這樣可以增加多少人這個可能要問內政部醫政署"},{"start":405.967,"end":421.58,"text":"都是替代役 替代役時間多久替代役時間也是一年來喔 我唸一段我就結束了這是選民給我的他的小孩子就是BMI45怎麼減都減不了就BMI45"},{"start":423.089,"end":446.55,"text":"然後他特別提到了現在大於37.5只是聽好喔兩位長官大於37.5健保補助開縮胃手術就是醫學上講的病態性的一個肥胖那你現在37.5就健保補助你開縮胃的手術就很清楚"},{"start":447.608,"end":465.621,"text":"以健康的角度來講37.5以上都不是太健康如果以肥胖來講的話那結果你要讓他去當兵萬一出了人命怎麼樣呢這個給我的是什麼就是他的小孩子就44他現在很憂心小孩子去當兵以後會不會怎麼樣會不會鬧出人命"},{"start":468.189,"end":489.02,"text":"跟委員報告這個是內政部議政司現在初步的建議但是我們現在還在開會還沒定案只是說有這個方向那還要經過各個委員會還有各個學會還有醫院還有專家還有內政部議政司最後一句話什麼時候可以確定"},{"start":490.791,"end":512.011,"text":"我大概在下個月大概就會定版下個月就會開始進入公告階段好好的把我剛剛那一段你把它看一下有些家長真的很憂心37.5是衛護部裡面健保可以補助的所謂的所謂的手術37.5是 謝委員的提醒好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時50分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國防部的顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你好。最近一直有一件事情，我想要看內容都看不到，一個就是賴總統講的「臺灣之盾」，另外一個就是特別預算，有人講要編一兆，現在又聽到是一兆三，等於在國防預算的正常預算裡面另外要編特別預算，請問到底是一兆還是一兆三？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在關於這個特別預算的規模還在行政院審議當中，所以，我們等行政院審議確定以後……"],["賴委員士葆：但你有提出來啊！你提出來的是多少？"],["顧部長立雄：我想因為還沒有審議完畢，因為這個預算的籌編是行政院的權責，所以我想還是以行政院最後的決定……"],["賴委員士葆：可是你總是有個版本給行政院，不然行政院怎麼審呢？因為原來講的是一兆，後來說一兆三，一兆三是不是太多了？或者你不便明講，那就說比一兆三少，這樣可以吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我想還是要以行政院的審議結果為準。"],["賴委員士葆：所以問不出答案就對了？你總是要講一下，讓我們知道這一兆多是不是都買美國武器？"],["林委員德福：機密的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這怎麼是機密呢？要面對全國，這是老百姓納稅的錢欸！"],["顧部長立雄：我想有軍購也有我們國內自己的委製，然後也有進行商購。"],["賴委員士葆：好，所以通通都是買武器，就這個意思，對吧？特別條例嘛！就類似戰機的特別條例2,500億，然後現在有一個特別條例是一兆到一兆三之間。"],["林委員德福：海鯤號啦！"],["顧部長立雄：我想相關的編列內容……"],["賴委員士葆：海鯤號不在這裡面。"],["顧部長立雄：我想等行政院核定之後，我們再對外來說明。"],["賴委員士葆：剛剛林委員提到海鯤號，海鯤號不在裡面吧？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有海鯤號。"],["賴委員士葆：海鯤號是extra的，除了海鯤號以外，我們還要編一兆啦！一兆就是臺灣之盾，這兩個是不是一樣的東西？就是為了要建構臺灣之盾，所以編了一兆？我都替你講話了，你總是要回答一下嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是，跟委員報告，我們現在要快速提升的是不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性。"],["賴委員士葆：是，防空系統啦！"],["顧部長立雄：不是只有針對臺灣之盾。"],["賴委員士葆：但是臺灣之盾在其中，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：會是其中一個重要的……"],["賴委員士葆：主要是防空系統，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：我們的整個防空會包括反彈、反機跟反無人機，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：還有整合系統啊！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["賴委員士葆：像巴基斯坦可以贏印度，就是個整合系統的問題，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是，所以我們會以強調高機動性跟高存活率的平台作為一個優先的考量。"],["賴委員士葆：所以主要是防空系統需要維持一定的空優，是不是？我不知道我們現在有沒有空優啦。"],["顧部長立雄：現在這個特別預算的內容因為還沒有經過核定，我想……但是我剛剛已經講了，我們是以提升不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性，會有包含這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你來這裡要儘量講啊！講到不能講為止，不能夠說儘量不講，就這樣擠一下講一點。","那第二個小問題就是是不是全數舉債？這總可以講吧？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分由主計局來說明一下。"],["賴委員士葆：主計局啊！長官啊！人家外面罵得要死，現在我們去哪裡，人家都說立法院是怎麼監督的！國防部的主計局，顧部長，你左邊這一位，你要好好的去監督一下啊！椅子買五萬塊一張，辦公桌兩百多萬一張，被人罵死了，罵到臭頭，連我們立委出去都被罵啊！說我們都沒有好好監督。我們的主席多優秀，把你抓出來，要是沒有抓出來，就是按照你們原來講的啊，能騙就騙，能誆就誆啊，就這樣啊！對不對？來！講一下是不是都舉債？你回答我。"],["謝局長其賢：報告委員，是的。"],["賴委員士葆：各位，都百分之百舉債！一兆是什麼概念？我們一年中央政府總預算三兆，三分之一的預算都舉債，一兆除以2,300萬，一個人要付多少錢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個不是一年的特別預算。"],["賴委員士葆：那幾年？"],["顧部長立雄：7年。"],["賴委員士葆：7年1兆，那平均一年也是一千多億啊，一千四百億、一千五百億左右。","第二個問題，我很快講完，我今天接到好多電話，在抗議內政部，其實是抗議你啊！說不當兵的，原來就BMI，兩年前才修訂的，到35以上不用當兵，現在把它提到45，你對外又講是替代役，部長講替代役，那你要講一下吧！你現在提高這麼多，很多就可以來了，小胖子或者是體型比較圓潤的通通要當兵了，變這個樣子。"],["顧部長立雄：我想是不是軍醫局簡要說明一下？"],["蔡局長建松：委員好，我是軍醫局局長。跟委員報告，常備役的體位沒有改變，維持原來的體位。我們增加的是替代役，替代役的BMI從35……"],["賴委員士葆：講清楚，所以35到45都是替代役的，是不是？"],["蔡局長建松：是替代役。"],["賴委員士葆：35到45都是？"],["蔡局長建松：替代役。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣子可以增加多少人？"],["蔡局長建松：這個可能要問內政部役政署。"],["賴委員士葆：都是替代役？"],["蔡局長建松：是。"],["賴委員士葆：替代役的時間多久？"],["蔡局長建松：替代役的時間也是1年。"],["賴委員士葆：我唸一段，然後就結束了。這是選民給我的，他的小孩子就是BMI 45，怎麼減都減不了，他特別提到，現在大於37.5的話，聽好喔！兩位長官，大於37.5，健保補助開縮胃手術，就是醫學上講的病態性肥胖。現在37.5就健保補助他開縮胃手術，很清楚地，以健康的角度來講，37.5以上都不是太健康，如果以肥胖來講的話，結果你要讓他去當兵，萬一出了人命怎麼樣呢？給我這個的，他的小孩子就是44，他現在很憂心，小孩子去當兵以後會不會怎麼樣？會不會鬧出人命？"],["蔡局長建松：跟委員報告，這個是內政部役政司現在初步的建議。"],["賴委員士葆：你推給內政部啊？"],["蔡局長建松：但是我們現在還在開會，還沒定案，只是有這個方向。有這個方向，還要經過各個學會、醫院、專家，以及內政部役政司跟……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一句話，什麼時候可以確定？3個月？"],["蔡局長建松：我們在下個月大概就會定版。"],["賴委員士葆：下個月確定？"],["蔡局長建松：就會開始進入公告階段。"],["賴委員士葆：好好地把我剛剛那一段看一下，有些家長真的很憂心，37.5是衛福部裡面健保可以補助縮胃手術，37.5。"],["蔡局長建松：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林德福委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d33fc54d1957e36218cbd78a287304ef9f378985d1c29b3fea047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:49:53 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在党委员先进列席的政务机关首长 官员会长 工作伙伴 媒体记者女士先生有请陈部长我们再请陈部长委员好部长 我很迅速的延续刚刚赖会员委员所说的在日本的厨余它是转化成液态饲料来饲养猪 对不对"},{"start":32.899,"end":48.443,"text":"對 它是轉化成飼料以後再進來那為什麼要轉化成液態飼料呢兩個原因因為每個人每天都在製造廚餘所以廚餘一定要去化對不對是但是廚餘如果直接餵養會有風險所以日本在轉化成液態飼料後才給豬隻食用對不對是好"},{"start":48.843,"end":70.286,"text":"那我請問一下 我們今年是不是宣布 台灣才脫離三大疫區是 今年五月 株溫的嘛 傳統株溫 非洲株溫 還有長病毒對不對口蹄疫 口蹄疫 不是 口蹄疫那請問一下 過去這幾年來關於管制廚餘 申請資源再利用 是不是有使用"},{"start":71.365,"end":95.501,"text":"我想我們從108年開始這些對廚餘的關係跟現在一樣嘛跟現在一樣沒有對 所以在這樣的廚餘的再資源化利用的情況之下台灣仍然有效的達成脫離豬瘟的疫區是不是對 如果說我們沒有去重視它我們不可能守住七年啊是的 表示說過去這七年還是有這樣的廚餘的再資源化的利用但是"},{"start":96.121,"end":120.956,"text":"沒有影響到我們脫離疫區的努力這都是靠著大家落實嘛所以重點是在落實還是禁用我覺得落實是最重要的就像我們說的有人運動要去登山有人要去健行你會因為健行被車撞還是因為登山發生山難就全面禁止登山健行嗎你會這樣做嗎不會不會嗎好那我們接下來看一下那"},{"start":122.096,"end":147.257,"text":"請問一下什麼樣的豬種是使用廚餘是原化的我們現在了解的是大概是黑毛豬的部分黑毛豬嘛黑豬白豬各有所好那請問黑豬佔我們全體豬的量供應量大概多少有沒有8%大概大概40幾萬隻吧差不多8%8%對8%所以說絕大部分我們吃的豬肉是白肉豬白毛豬黑豬只有8%黑豬的主要消費地在哪裡"},{"start":149.036,"end":171.883,"text":"在桃園 在桃竹苗 你有沒有看過客家的那個神豬賽豬宮有沒有 都是黑豬嘛這是一個特定族群的傳統的習俗跟他們的飲食習慣那麼黑豬的主要消費地是在桃竹苗那請問這個地區的黑豬使用的廚餘資源化來源地是哪裡 是不是北部的餐廳"},{"start":174.031,"end":189.209,"text":"是嘛北部的外食人口多所以北部的連飼料的供應也是北部市場的需求也在北部所以桃豬苗的確是台灣目前這8%黑豬的產地跟市場的主要集中區是不是這樣"},{"start":189.81,"end":212.056,"text":"是的 我跟委員報告那為什麼這次我們在台中出現了這一場我們的廚餘的資源化再利用是誰在管 是不是環保局在管是 地方是環保局那我們是不是有兩個原則第一 兩百頭以下不得使用 對不對規模化才有效益第二 一定要集中高溫烹煮 對不對是不是還包括說我們盡量鼓勵使用團散的食魚家庭廚餘的風險是比較高"},{"start":213.976,"end":229.424,"text":"相對那你認為這是無期的清潔隊他收來的廚餘是家庭廚餘還是團戰廚餘我們在疫調也會了解不過你如果不管是清潔隊或是事業廚餘或是家庭廚餘你如果要落實徵阻是落實徵阻最主要的但是風險"},{"start":230.865,"end":253.715,"text":"家庭廚餘有可能會是境外郵包食品的郵包比如說我不是一定但是有可能是包括境內的移工他們想念家鄉的食物進來的郵包食用後進入了家庭廚餘被清潔隊收了後送到了這個養豬場這個小規模養豬場又沒有高溫蒸煮造成了這樣的可能性這樣的可能性是不是存在"},{"start":254.687,"end":272.957,"text":"我覺得所有的風險我們都不可以忽視好那所以我這裡要請我們農業部一定要在行政院現在行政院有沒有聯合起來對這個非洲豬瘟的事件開始做跨部會的協調我想特別是昨天院長特別召開的這些跨部會的這個非洲豬瘟的一個應變的一個會議"},{"start":274.378,"end":299.182,"text":"那原來的制度裡面就有中央非洲豬的中央應變中心我們會透過這個組織來運作所以包括目前在我們本來廚餘縣市廚餘管制使用必須資源化處理對不對那這個是環境部環保局在做那請問現在台中市的部分它那麼多團山那麼多營養午餐產生那麼多的廚餘這段時間不能使用那怎麼去化這是農業部管的還是環境部管的"},{"start":299.962,"end":314.455,"text":"這個是環境部來協助地方的環保局所以地方的環保局要趕快的落實趕快的去因應在這段禁用廚餘期間團散營養午餐的這個廚餘要怎麼去化可以用燒的嗎"},{"start":316.974,"end":334.346,"text":"不曉得 我想這是環境部環保局的問題我所了解環境部跟地方環保局昨天已經有開會然後希望說有一個儲存的地方然後用委外的方式去收取好 所以我們在這裡希望說其實這個廚餘資源化是環境議題"},{"start":335.647,"end":362.597,"text":"對於農業部門來講養豬全部的黑豬只佔8%不是我們國家主要的養豬的主要的市場但是在國內仍然有特定的消費人口在使用所以我們希望說未來農業部跟環境部要在這一次的教訓之後我們一定要落實包括邊境管制包括這些使用的資源化必須要能夠被監督有落實高溫增煮可以嗎這一定要這樣做的好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我很迅速地延續剛剛賴惠員委員所說的，在日本，廚餘是轉化成液態飼料來養豬，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，它是轉化成飼料以後再進來，不是直接蒸煮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼要轉化成液態飼料有兩個原因，因為每個人每天都在製造廚餘，所以廚餘一定要去化，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是廚餘如果直接餵養會有風險，所以日本是把它轉化成液態飼料以後才給豬隻食用，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我請問一下，我們今年是不是宣布臺灣脫離三大疫區？"],["陳部長駿季：是，今年5月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：傳統豬瘟、非洲豬瘟還有腸病毒，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是口蹄疫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，口蹄疫。請問一下，過去這幾年來，關於管制廚餘、申請資源再利用，是不是有使用？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從108年開始，對廚餘的管制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟現在一樣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：跟現在一樣，沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在廚餘資源化再利用的情況下，臺灣仍然有效達成脫離豬瘟疫區，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，如果沒有去重視它，我們不可能守住7年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，表示過去這7年，還是有廚餘資源化的利用，但是沒有影響到我們脫離疫區的努力。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是靠大家落實嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以重點是在落實還是禁用？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得落實是最重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就像有人運動要去登山、有人要去健行，你會因為健行被車撞還是登山發生山難，就全面禁止登山、健行嗎？你會這樣做嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會嘛，好。接下來，請問什麼樣的豬種是使用廚餘資源化的？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在瞭解的大概是黑毛豬的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黑毛豬嘛！黑豬、白豬各有所好。請問黑豬占我們全體豬隻的供應量大概是多少？有沒有8%？"],["陳部長駿季：大概四十幾萬隻吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：差不多8%嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們吃的豬肉絕大部分是白毛豬，黑豬只有8%？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黑豬的主要消費地在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：桃園……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在桃竹苗。你有沒有看過客家的神豬？賽豬公，有沒有？都是黑豬嘛！這是一個特定族群的傳統習俗跟他們的飲食習慣。","黑豬的主要消費地是在桃竹苗，請問這個地區的黑豬使用的廚餘資源化來源地是哪裡？是不是北部的餐廳？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！北部的外食人口多，所以飼料的供應是北部，市場的需求也在北部，所以桃竹苗的確是臺灣目前這8%黑豬的產地跟市場的主要集中區，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是的，我跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼這次在臺中出現這一場？我們的廚餘資源化再利用是誰在管？是不是環保局在管？"],["陳部長駿季：是，地方是環保局……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們是不是有兩個原則，第一，200頭以下不得使用，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：規模化才有效益。第二，一定要集中高溫蒸煮，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是還包括儘量鼓勵使用團膳的廚餘，因為家庭廚餘的風險比較高？"],["陳部長駿季：相對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為這次梧棲清潔隊收來的廚餘是家庭廚餘還是團膳廚餘？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的疫調也會瞭解，不過不管清潔隊收的是事業廚餘或家庭廚餘，如果能落實蒸煮……"],["鍾委員佳濱：落實蒸煮是最主要的？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是風險上家庭廚餘……"],["陳部長駿季：會比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能會是境外郵包食品，我不是說一定，但是有可能包括境內移工想念家鄉的食物，進來的郵包食品食用後，進入家庭廚餘，被清潔隊收取以後送到養豬場，這個小規模的養豬場又沒有高溫蒸煮，從而造成這樣的可能性。這樣的可能性是不是存在？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得所有的風險都不可以忽視。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我請農業部一定要在行政院……現在行政院有沒有聯合起來，對這個非洲豬瘟的事件開始做跨部會的協調？"],["陳部長駿季：昨天院長特別召開了跨部會的非洲豬瘟應變會議，原來的制度裡面就有非洲豬瘟的中央應變中心，我們會透過這個組織來運作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以包括本來縣市廚餘管制使用，必須資源化處理，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個是環境部、環保局在做。請問現在臺中市的部分，他們那麼多團膳、那麼多營養午餐產生那麼多廚餘，這段時間不能使用，那怎麼去化？這是農業部管的，還是環境部管的？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是環境部來協助處理的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地方的環保局？"],["陳部長駿季：對，環保局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以地方的環保局要趕快落實、趕快去因應在這段禁用廚餘期間，團膳、營養午餐的廚餘要怎麼去化，可以用燒的嗎？不曉得？我想這是環境部、環保局的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：我所了解，環境部跟地方環保局昨天已經有開會，希望有一個貯存的地方，並且用委外的方式去收取。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實廚餘資源化是環境議題，對於農業部門來講，養豬全部的黑豬只占8%，不是我們國家養豬主要的市場，但是在國內仍然有特定的消費人口在使用，所以我們希望未來農業部跟環境部要在這一次的教訓之後，我們一定要落實，包括邊境管制、包括這些使用的資源化，必須要能夠被監督有落實高溫蒸煮，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這一定要這樣做的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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有估計啦 0.15是不是有估計啦 這個估計說多少這個都是參考參考啦所以你不贊成發現金是不是發現金好啊 發現金好啊對每一個人好但是對整體來講的話他的幫助是不是真的是非常高這個有些時候還是不能很確定的啦"},{"start":270.691,"end":295.73,"text":"好 我最後一個問題你說了要換新幣是不是未來2.5年未來的兩年內要換新幣在你任期結束前是不是是啦 應該啦我想請問大家都討論了是我們換新幣的這樣子的成本預估500億是不是沒有"},{"start":296.511,"end":298.273,"text":"500億是以前的時候我們說連銅板都一直改版銅板的改版的成本非常高那時候大概預估銅板光是銅板就400多億"},{"start":314.226,"end":324.281,"text":"我想要問你 是發行新幣時候我們政府部門對於所有用這個新鈔的人所謂的鑄幣稅"},{"start":327.028,"end":332.595,"text":"就是政府不用透過舉債的方式我跟委員報告"},{"start":346.332,"end":353.356,"text":"事實上我們新台幣的租幣稅很低不高我們不會中央銀行的賺錢很多都強調你說很低那為什麼你不換那個硬幣為什麼不換硬幣那就是因為"},{"start":365.683,"end":384.093,"text":"2月10號的時候美國川普總統就說了他說他們再也不鑄造penny就是一分錢的硬幣了為什麼因為一分錢硬幣的成本多過於他們要鑄造一分錢沒有錯所以"},{"start":386.454,"end":415.259,"text":"对于硬币来讲是不是你央行住硬币的成本高过于没有住币税所以你就不要住硬币了新的硬币硬币不住成本的考量这个是第一个第二个电子租户很多到最后他会把硬币慢慢的会把它淘汰掉还有双数字的就是2000元的或200元的这我们会考量"},{"start":415.999,"end":443.588,"text":"为什么不做不是说不做我们现在预计是不是因为一般民众在算术上面来讲都是10进位不是20进位的是不是是不是对于这样子技术上面大家算术的应用上面不便利是不是我想这些我们都会考量委员的这些的建议还有你的想法我们都会列入记录"},{"start":444.69,"end":458.805,"text":"都會列入紀錄喔不要藉由硬心操對民眾收取鑄幣稅這個鑄幣稅我剛才也跟委員報告鑄幣稅說實在是不大啦對中央銀行來講不是重點好的好謝謝我們謝謝謝一鋒委員總裁請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1592,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我想要請楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：楊總裁好。今天要來委員會前，我昨天還特別去查了，我不知道你們會做數字，早知道我就叫你報告先給我看。"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是你們會預估的經濟成長數字。總裁，我看了你們的預估，你們把國內外機構的預估都統計好了，認為今年的經濟成長數字是5%，明年是2.36%，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們有平均數字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你覺得今年好是因為搶單的關係，對不對？因為美國關稅問題，然後有一些搶單的狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來當關稅底定之後，明年的經濟成長數字有沒有辦法達到現在你們所預估的2.36%這樣的平均值？"],["楊總裁金龍：坦白跟委員報告，在這段時間，川普的政策說實在的不確定性很高，我所說的不確定性很高的意思是說，要做一個很準確的預測不大容易。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不容易，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是不容易，也就是說，誤差會很大，我舉一個例子，譬如川普一開始在4月的時候，大家都說經濟會很差，大概會在3%以下……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是因為他的對等關稅即便增加了，也有非常多的豁免以及例外，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，就不確定性嘛！有些時候他說這樣、有些時候又說那樣……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於美國有需要的商品，他就把它列為豁免或者例外對象，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：臺灣在這一波裡面，當然有一些是因為搶單關係，有一些是因為是美國必須的產品，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是明年呢？我們臺灣其他財經部會都認為明年的數字絕對比2.36%好，你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：比這個2.3%還好，是不是？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！這個我當然要問你啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：喔！也有可能，也有可能喔！"],["謝委員衣鳯：你也覺得有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是，真的，以前我們都覺得是拉貨效應，但到下半年，卻發現不是，因為AI相關資通訊產品的熱絡好像真的是持續的，而且很多機構也都認為說不定這個現象會延續到明年，所以對明年並不感到悲觀。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我再請教你，發現金呢？我們11月就要發現金了，發現金對明年度整體的經濟成長，你覺得……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想發現金對……"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去2023年我們也有發過……"],["楊總裁金龍：發現金對我們的經濟成長是有，但是我們的經濟成長不依賴發1萬塊的現金。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說對於內需？"],["楊總裁金龍：內需應該是會有幫助，但是我不認為我們的經濟成長要依賴這個，不是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：2023年我們發了6,000元，對於經濟成長的刺激……"],["楊總裁金龍：有啦！有估計啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：0.15%是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：有估計啦！這個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：大概多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：估計多少，這個都不大那個……這都是參考、參考，也不必……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你不贊成發現金，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不贊成發現金？"],["楊總裁金龍：發現金好啊！發現金好啊！對每一個人都好，但整體來講，它的幫助是不是真的非常高，有些時候還是不能很確定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，最後一個問題，你說要換新幣，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來兩年內要換新幣，就是在你任期結束前，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，應該啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：大家都在討論換新幣的成本，預估要花500億，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，500億是以前連銅板都要一起改版的時候，因為銅板改版的成本非常高，那時候預估光銅板改版就要四百多億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：發行新幣時候，政府部門對於所有用新鈔的人都會收取所謂的鑄幣稅，就是政府不用透過舉債方式，而是透過印新幣來對於所有使用這個貨幣的人收取鑄幣稅。"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，事實上新臺幣的鑄幣稅很低，不高……"],["謝委員衣鳯：很低？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會是中央銀行賺錢，很多都強調……"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼？你說很低，那為什麼不換硬幣？為什麼不換硬幣，是因為2月10號時，美國川普總統就說他們再也不鑄造penny（一分錢）硬幣，因為一分錢硬幣的成本多過於他們要鑄造的一分錢，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯、沒有錯，事實上我們也是這樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以對於硬幣來講，央行鑄硬幣的成本高過於……沒有鑄幣稅，所以你們就不鑄新的硬幣，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：硬幣不鑄第一個是成本考量；第二個，現在電子支付很多，到最後會把硬幣慢慢淘汰掉，最主要是在這裡。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有雙數字的貨幣，就是2,000元或200元的紙鈔……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們會考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼不做？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是說不做，我們現在預計……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是因為一般民眾在算術上都是10進位嘛！不是20進位的嘛！是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在技術面，這樣讓大家在算術的應用上不便利，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這些我們都會考量，委員的這些建議，還有你的想法，我們都會列入紀錄。"],["謝委員衣鳯：都會列入紀錄？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會列入紀錄。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不要藉由印新鈔對民眾收取鑄幣稅，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：鑄幣稅我剛才也跟委員報告，鑄幣稅說實在是不大啦！對中央銀行來講不是重點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝謝衣鳯委員，總裁請回。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們接著請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d383aaba54383a0cafcbd78a287304ef9f378985d1c29b3feada6e6bdae5930a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:43:58 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請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":10.37,"end":32.64,"text":"部長 那個延續剛才幾位委員的一個議題我要請教10月10號到10月14號這個是一個採樣的一個關鍵期那到底就是說台中動保處有沒有要求就是事主就是要採樣"},{"start":33.84,"end":55.45,"text":"那有沒有事主就是這個過程裡頭是怎麼樣的一個情況我們必須要去把他釐清這個關係到後續的一些行政的一個工作那還有最重要就是說10月10號到10月14號他再出地再20倍價那個流促我想大家"},{"start":55.99,"end":80.352,"text":"必須要把它搞清楚是行政怠惰還是程序上的一個疏失還是制度出了一個問題這10天的空窗期絕對不是台中市副市長那個黃國榮一句說我們已經盡了最大的努力了我想這個關係到整個養豬產業非常重要的一個存亡之際我們花了20年在"},{"start":80.973,"end":96.361,"text":"把台灣變成是一個惠州豬瘟的一個防疫區這個你知道我們這裡的地盤都可以外銷外銷新加坡 外銷菲律賓這個都得到很好的一個成績那如果只是一個"},{"start":97.541,"end":119.313,"text":"地方政府的一個疏失讓我們造成一個這麼大的一個破口這個都是我們不應該去承擔的所以禁印五天這個在後續你剛才有講到了就是說你們是把它延長到15天那五天一個cycle 五天一個cycle都會充分的就是反映追蹤"},{"start":120.273,"end":145.671,"text":"那事實上如果以我個人在這產業界這麼多年的一個關懷的一個時間我想15天可能還不夠部長你可能還要有一個第二一個那個計畫準備就是營運這個禁運的5天15天以外的第二套計畫來 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我跟你講這個違規中港澳最高嘛你這次出現的問題是噴嘛你是在那個 就是用那個噴室養的這一些養豬場嘛"},{"start":294.218,"end":315.329,"text":"有沒有考慮到就是說在未來是不是要前面的那個停止這個也是一個很重要的一個議題這個是後續的問題那你也要考慮你知道嗎其實在日本養豬他們也是有用到噴可是他們是用噴把它再那個升級做飼料變成飼料以後再來餵豬這個部分我想我們"},{"start":315.789,"end":344.429,"text":"是我们必须要关心的对后续的养猪的这些政策我们包括可能逐步的转型然后也让这个厨艺的部分有机会变成饲料以后再来喂这个部分我想我们会整体来考虑是啊是啊所以再一次提醒部长就是说也请你加油因为面临到很这个是很重要很重要的一个对养猪产业很大的一个困境跟挑战所以农业部跟其他的部会我们要一起联合起来跨部会谢谢"},{"start":344.943,"end":344.964,"text":"好 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第二點是類似的東西我不管你講135克或130克這個基本上就是類似的東西你陸海空軍的價格竟然是不一樣的我昨天去訪掉很多的國軍弟兄我才發現他們根本不知道因為陸軍只能看到陸軍的系統空軍只能看到空軍的系統海軍只能看到海軍的系統所以他們都以為跟我一樣都是買110塊"},{"start":626.611,"end":632.859,"text":"結果我一講才發現原來空間是90喔大家都會有相對剝奪感你只是因為你的這一些APP它看不到對方軍種的所以大家才會覺得說我們原來就是這樣再來"},{"start":643.115,"end":661.119,"text":"像這個 我想剛剛委員指教就是說品項一個品項有一個多樣性的選擇我想我下去可以來檢討是你這個第一個多樣性的選擇第二個如果他已經非常類似了就是你才差五克你告訴我說你要差十塊到二十塊我覺得如果我是一個消費者來說我就不能接受了何況這個點數應該是讓我們的國軍弟兄他有某一種程度的這個福利然後還因為不同的軍種然後有不同的售價我覺得應該要統一來處理再來"},{"start":673.041,"end":695.459,"text":"像這種呢大家會想要買的國軍弟兄會想要買這是屬於自費的就經常是處於一個不貨中的狀態那所以說很多的國軍弟兄一直講說呢到年底就叫別人花點數可是他想要買的東西呢永遠都在進貨當中那所以說我希望這一點呢也可以稍微去做一些改進既然你們都已經上架到這個系統上面了"},{"start":695.859,"end":708.853,"text":"就要盡量讓大家能夠購買得到啊否則大家想買的東西每一次都在不管是自費或者是用點數扣的都在補貨當中永遠都買不到那這樣子你們做的這個商店還有什麼意義嗎來我們再繼續往下看這個也是一樣"},{"start":713.337,"end":721.463,"text":"同樣類型不完全相同不是同一雙鞋我告訴你同一樣類型的靴子有的軍種賣2000塊有的軍種賣2500塊這個特別是宣傳的賣2500塊有的人賣2400塊所以我才說我從毛巾跟你講是因為它比較好比較但是從毛巾衣服到靴子都比較高價位的靴子都是同樣的狀況再給您看一些陳情"},{"start":741.917,"end":759.7,"text":"迷彩技工服1800塊材質爛到爆被火花噴到直接就融穿了用這種材質當技工服嗎他後面在罵的我就不講了很多東西限量購買要讓工廠好抓量爆表好看因為點數要消耗完"},{"start":760.58,"end":763.781,"text":"然後呢還有什麼這個中華民國的公發點數納稅錢我們都有繳稅1500塊的東西如果變成3000這樣錢沒有被拐走嗎這些都是大家講你看喔2500塊的靴子商城限定講的多好穿結果每一個穿上去的都說很難穿"},{"start":783.266,"end":807.097,"text":"所以我想要幫大家是爭取這個福利就是說呢第一個既然我們有這個點數讓他們每年可以去使用這個也是納稅錢那我們國軍弟兄他能夠去花的那他的購買的東西的品質我覺得一定要有然後呢價格上面生活上的用品就是要用生活上的價格"},{"start":808.243,"end":821.039,"text":"我們一般出去外面買毛巾大概多少錢在商店買毛巾多少錢大概大家都知道你是30塊到50塊差不多就是那個價格一條那結果如果我們在國軍購物站裡面你要賣到100多塊錢"},{"start":823.274,"end":837.701,"text":"那他們就說好啊那我就去外面買你聽起來很合理對不對可是不對啊他有點數要花完啊而且每年到年末的時候大家就會開始講說你要使用的點數把它花完啊那最後他就買毛巾來湊數"},{"start":839.602,"end":852.111,"text":"那這個臭的這個數量它的價格又不合理那變成是所有我們基層的軍人都知道這件事情但我們的長官不清楚所以在這裡我要再一次的幫我們的基層軍官跟我們部長請命這個商城的問題你不要看它小但它引起的基層軍官的民怨非常的大而且這不是我第一次看到了"},{"start":862.779,"end":883.735,"text":"是因為一直遲遲都沒有改善所以我今天在業務報告的時候提出來我希望部長可以做一個完全全面的改革那因為時間的關係我沒有辦法一個一個一項一項的品項跟你說以及幫每一位的不同軍種的軍官他們跟你反映但是呢希望我們事後我們後續再針對各個應該要"},{"start":888.699,"end":891.52,"text":"檢討的品項 我們做一個全面的檢討讓這個公發的點數 讓這個商城讓他的商品 都能夠符合我們的國軍需求 部長可以嗎"},{"start":899.953,"end":920.634,"text":"我想委員的一個指教我會下去進行研討因為相關的這些品項的部分這麼的眾多其實也沒有到很多了你應該沒有看過各軍種跟各官兵的這個多元的選擇性這個部分然後還有您剛剛提到的舒適性的等等我想我們都會來測定好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時33分）謝謝主席，有請顧立雄部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。又快到年末了，所以我要來關心一下我們的服裝供售站。國軍官兵個人服裝的磨損換補，過去是用手填單，耗時又費工，新的政策上路之後，從2021年開始，我們有服裝供售站正式營運，除了實體店面之外，這資訊系統可以讓軍官兵透過app自主選購，再透過物流宅配送達，這個改變其實是好的，因為它也跟上了時代的腳步。而依個別軍種可以看到個別軍種可以採購的項目，每一位官兵最高每年的額度是9,860點（元），因為一點是1元嘛！當年度核配的點數，年底要使用完畢，限制在買公費的品項上面。","滿多官兵跟我們反映每到年底的時候，像現在已經10月，10月、11月、12月開始就會有很多的長官們希望：點數還沒有花完的趕快去買。但是，我想先問一下部長，你看一下簡報上這張照片，這條毛巾尺寸大小大概多少？75乘33的毛巾，大概可以看一下是75公分乘33公分的毛巾，我們所有當兵的，不管陸、海、空三軍在你的app上面都可以看到，我想要問一下部長，你覺得這條國軍公發制式毛巾，如果要購買的話，你覺得以物價標準來說，一條大概應該多少的價格是比較合理的？"],["顧部長立雄：我可能沒有辦法回答這個問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？你覺得就是依你……等一下，旁邊的不要打小報告，我問的是部長覺得毛巾應該要花多少錢買是你覺得比較合理的價格範圍。你不用告訴我具體的數字，一個區間也可以，假設我講誇張一點300到600，這是我亂講的。但我的意思是說一個價格的區間，您覺得怎麼樣是比較合理的？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛他們有提到，毛巾部分陸、海軍不太一樣，大概90塊到110塊吧。"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得合理嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得應該要看毛巾的品質而定。"],["徐委員巧芯：毛巾的品質？這樣的品質你告訴我要90塊到110塊？好，再來我要問一個問題，請陸軍、海軍、空軍都過來，分別講一下你們賣的毛巾是多少錢？同一條毛巾，竟然陸、海、空三軍的價格是不一樣的！我們今天就來看哪一個軍種被當成盤子！各位，我是在幫大家爭取福利。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我自己在服裝供售站還蠻青睞這條毛巾，我印象中……"],["徐委員巧芯：你有錢啊！"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有！我買大概是100塊。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不是買100塊……"],["陳參謀長建義：我印象中，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：110塊啦！先跳回去，我們一個一個看，我們一個一個看，海軍來！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：買多少錢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：海軍100塊。"],["徐委員巧芯：100塊？好，空軍多少錢？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，空軍是90塊。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看！陸軍陳建義參謀長，你是買110塊！"],["陳參謀長建義：應該還是要看它的……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有因為不因為的問題，登進去就是這樣子，我直接開給你們看，空軍是90塊錢，海軍是100塊錢，陸軍是110塊錢，陸軍弟兄人最多，以薪資來說其實會比較辛苦，結果買東西買最貴！你覺得這樣對我們國軍弟兄合理嗎？陸軍簡直就被當成盤子！這三條是一模一樣的毛巾，結果空軍買90塊錢，這其實已經非常貴了。然後海軍100塊，陸軍110塊！剛剛三位參謀長，空軍跟海軍都答對，代表你們再怎麼說都有掌握你們弟兄的具體情況，為什麼陳參謀長說你常常買，結果你講的價格跟上面不一樣？我今天不跟你探討這個，你們三位可以先回座了。恭喜海軍跟空軍有正確答對，你們至少知道到底發生什麼事情。","部長，我要跟你反映，我今天舉毛巾為例，並非我只看毛巾這個品項，而是這個品項三軍都有。部長，您覺得呢？第一個，我剛剛問價格的合理性，我剛剛已經給您看過了，它就是一條70乘以33的毛巾，市面上一般來說最多賣50塊錢，但國防部要賣90到110塊，這是第一點。第二點在於什麼？陸、海、空三軍對同一個商品賣的是不同的價格，部長，您覺得合理嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是不是請採購室說明一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我現在問的是部長覺得合不合理，之後再來講怎麼採購吧！你的態度是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我想各項產品的材質重量……"],["徐委員巧芯：是一樣的，我先跟您說。"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛看到毛巾的規格就不一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：說一下規格哪裡不一樣？為什麼陸軍可以買這樣的規格，海軍能買這樣的規格，空軍能買這樣的規格？為什麼大家的規格不能統一，價格不能統一？"],["顧部長立雄：我想第一點，規格好像有135公克，也有113公克，但是我想還涉及到材質的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一個是135公克？哪一個是113公克？"],["顧部長立雄：陸軍的部分是135公克。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後呢？"],["顧部長立雄：海軍是113公克。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後呢？你剛剛講的是材質的部分，繼續說。"],["顧部長立雄：這個應該是指重量。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不是說材質也不一樣？"],["顧部長立雄：材質方面，我沒有很清楚了解這三個的材質有什麼不同，但是我想……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果今天陸軍弟兄不希望花這麼多點數，想買90塊錢的……不好意思，在他的系統是買不到的，您知道這件事嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對。剛剛在沈委員質詢時我也有提到，就各項通用的部分我們會來檢討、研議……"],["徐委員巧芯：這點你真的要檢討，因為有非常多人表達不滿，而我現在只舉一個例子。我希望你們檢討的時候，要針對所有品項一起檢討！我拿這個例子是因為比較簡單易懂，所以我拿這個例子出來講，其他的例子更複雜，我怕今天時間不夠用。你們可以看一下，尤其部長一定要看一下。本來賣的毛巾是一條36塊錢，後來因為你們改成有品牌的毛巾，所以變成110塊錢！我不反對你們賣很貴的毛巾，但一般平常、日常生活用的、國軍所需要的、弟兄需要的毛巾，便宜的他們買不到了，現在在這個購物商城上買不到了，因為已經變成110塊了！你可以看看，這些都是國軍弟兄的匿名抱怨：不意外，那條毛巾都敢開110塊了！原本36塊，生活工廠變110塊，鑲金的！這有沒有官商勾結的問題？買東西樣式少，價錢又高得嚇人，本來毛巾是36塊，結果換了生活工廠後翻倍變110塊！到年底還強迫大家把點數花完，沒有需求還被硬逼著買一堆自己用不到的東西。以前36塊只能買五條還會缺貨，最近打開來看，怎麼東西都那麼貴？看到新聞說圖利廠商……當然，不是指你們。一堆，才上來看大家的感想。洗衣袋營站賣30塊到40塊；文創部賣20塊被說不能賣，因為這樣營站賺不到錢，所以就把它撤掉，這就是現在國軍弟兄在基層所遇到的真實情況。今天這件事情雖然小，可是部長你要想，國軍弟兄人數這麼多，所以加起來就會成為一個很重大的問題！部長，我可不可以了解一下你的態度？"],["顧部長立雄：就委員質詢的事項，我必須去了解各個品項、材質、規格等等，然後針對這些事項，我會統一跟他們一起檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我跟你說，這真的很有檢討的必要，因為抱怨的人非常多。"],["顧部長立雄：因為可能看起來是毛巾，可能幾十塊，但也有可能材質是不一樣的，這個我並不是非常……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛說過了……"],["顧部長立雄：我並不是非常……"],["徐委員巧芯：是因為換了品牌！當然，這個品牌是比較好的品牌，材質跟質量也有可能比較好，這我沒辦法確定。但國軍弟兄認為：過去我36塊就可以買到毛巾了，也是堪用的，但現在我要買卻買不到！其實可以兩種都上架，如果真的覺得一百多塊的高質量毛巾這麼重要，可以兩個都上，我沒有意見。現在的狀況是：國軍弟兄想買的東西現在買不到了！就在你們一個政策下去之後，他們就買不到了，這是第一點。第二點，類似的東西，不管是你講的135公克或113公克，基本上就是類似的東西，但陸、海、空軍的價格竟然不一樣！昨天我去訪調很多國軍弟兄後才發現，他們根本不知道，因為陸軍只能看到陸軍的系統，空軍只能看到空軍的系統，海軍只能看到海軍的系統，所以他們以為都一樣，都買110塊。結果我一講才發現，原來空軍買90塊，讓大家有相對剝奪感，只因為在app裡看不到其他軍種的價格，才會覺得原來就是這樣。","再來……"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛委員指教一個品項可以有多樣性的選擇，我想我下去可以來檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，第一個，有多樣性的選擇；第二個，如果已經非常類似了，就是才差5公克，結果價格差10塊到20塊！如果我是消費者的話，我不能接受！何況點數是讓國軍弟兄享有某種程度的福利，結果因為不同的軍種有不同的售價！我覺得應該要統一處理。","再來，大家會想買、國軍弟兄想買，屬於自費的品項，經常處於補貨中的狀態。所以有很多國軍弟兄一直說，到年底就叫別人花點數，可是他想買的東西永遠都在進貨當中！我希望這一點也可以稍微做一些改進，既然你們都已經上架到系統上了，就要儘量讓大家能夠買得到，否則大家想買的東西，不管是自費或用點數扣的，永遠都在補貨當中，永遠都買不到，這樣子你們做這個商店還有什麼意義？","我們再繼續往下看。這個也是一樣，這是同樣類型，其實不完全相同，不是同一雙鞋。我告訴您，同一類型的靴子，有的軍種賣2,000塊，有的軍種賣2,500塊，這個特別去宣傳的賣2,500塊，有的賣2,400塊。所以我才說我從毛巾跟你講，是因為它比較好比較，但是從毛巾、衣服到比較高價位的靴子都是同樣的狀況。再給您看一些陳情，迷彩技工服1,800塊，材質爛到爆，被火花噴到直接就熔穿了，用這種材質做技工服嗎？後面在罵的我就不講了，很多東西限量購買，要讓工廠好抓量，要報表好看，因為點數要消耗完；然後還有中華民國的公發點數是中華民國國民的納稅錢，我們都有繳稅，1,500塊的東西，如果變成3,000，這樣錢沒有被拐走嗎？這些都是大家講的。你看2,500塊的靴子，商城限定，講得多好穿，結果每一個穿上去都說很難穿。","所以我想要幫大家爭取這個福利，第一個，既然有這個點數可以讓他們每年去使用，這個也是納稅錢，那我們國軍弟兄能夠購買的東西的品質，我覺得一定要有，然後價格上，生活用品就是要用生活上的價格，我們一般出去外面買毛巾大概多少錢，在商店買毛巾多少錢，大家應該都知道，一條30塊到50塊，差不多就是那個價格，如果在國軍供售站裡面要賣到一百多塊錢，那他們就說好啊，他們就去外面買，你聽起來很合理，對不對？可是不對啊！他有點數要花完啊！而且每年到年末的時候，大家就會開始說你要使用你的點數，把它花完，最後他就買毛巾來湊數，但他們湊的這個數量，價格就不合理，所有基層的軍人都知道這件事情，但長官不清楚。所以在這裡，我要再一次的幫我們的基層軍官跟部長請命，這個商城的問題，你不要看它小，但它引起的基層軍官的民怨非常的大，而且這不是我第一次看到了，是因為一直遲遲都沒有改善，所以我今天在業務報告的時候提出來，希望部長可以做一個全面的改革。因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法就一個一個品項跟你說，以及幫每一位不同軍種的軍官跟你反映，但是希望事後針對各個應該要檢討的品項作一個全面的檢討，讓這個公發的點數、讓這個商城、讓它的商品都能夠符合我們國軍的需求。部長，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想委員的指教，我會下去進行研討，因為相關的品項眾多……"],["徐委員巧芯：其實也沒有到很多，你應該沒有看過。"],["顧部長立雄：各軍種跟各官兵的多元選擇性，還有您剛剛提到的舒適性等等，我想我們都會來策進。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，就剛剛徐委員提到的這個部分，服裝供售站其實已經保障廠商66億餘元這麼高的收入，因為國軍所有的點數都會用到，這等於對一家公司挹注非常多。現在已經標出去了，所以請部長提供合約內容給本席和委員會，因為很多國軍官兵都在反映，他們要的根本買不到，一延再延，可是到最後必須要把點數用掉，只好買很多其他的東西，因為在網上其他的品牌都可以買到，產品非常多樣化，他們要的買不到，只好買這些，那會變成變相圖利這些廠商，所以我們也請國防部相關單位還有部長可以重視這個問題，謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d35e5763fefb011d30cbd78a287304ef9f378985d1c29b3feac47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:38:09 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那是不是有請部長我們再請陳部長部長今天大家真的為了這個非洲豬瘟台中無期廠這件事情 人心惶惶"},{"start":28.171,"end":54.691,"text":"那我想再跟部長確認因為早上很多委員在質詢的時候有講到說那現在禁運禁宅以及這個廚餘的一個管制的一個期間那我們這樣大概會用幾天的時間我跟委員報告就是我們現在所實施的比較積極的兩個做法一個是全國性的禁運禁宅及禁止廚餘養豬那這個考量都是為了做比較完整的疫調"},{"start":57.133,"end":77.51,"text":"讓這個傳播鏈不會因為其他的因素而擴散所以我們根據我們的這些潛伏期的規定是15天所以我們就是定15天但是在15天之內我們會用5天為一個週期來做觀察包括我們台東市的這些關聯性的養豬場我們希望5天之內就能夠有一些初步的結果"},{"start":78.03,"end":99.652,"text":"那我們在不同的五天的觀察期如果說他的情況是可被控制的那相對的我們可能對於其他縣市某個程度我們會開始逐步的去開放這個部分或者全部的開放所以原則是15天但是以五天為周期去看接下來疫調的一個狀況對 是這樣子那所以現在已經進行全面性的疫調了嗎"},{"start":100.613,"end":124.281,"text":"對 現在已經分兩個層次一個層次是針對台東市的疫調觀念場的疫調是最嚴謹的然後另外一個是台東市以外的這些養豬場那本身我們也是透過中央應變中心各縣市的這些防疫的人員都會到豬場去不管是透過電話訪視或是現場訪視去了解豬隻的健康狀況那相對的這個部分我想我們會"},{"start":125.561,"end":141.433,"text":"定期的去讓這些階段性的工作成果這個對外的一個說明那部長我想要問一下啦因為現在大家國人還是對於這一次的這個台中這個無期這個案場這個養豬場"},{"start":143.857,"end":170.46,"text":"整個時序上大家還是充滿著疑惑從10月10號這個這頂開始有出現死亡然後他們當時他們是把他懷疑是感染的是叫做什麼兇魔肺炎他們把他認定是兇魔肺炎所以在10月10號的時候並沒有去做全面的一個採樣跟監控是這樣的嗎"},{"start":173.496,"end":179.604,"text":"根據我們從那個台東市的那個動保處的人員他所陳述的的確是這樣的方式"},{"start":180.632,"end":197.462,"text":"所以10月10號 照理10月10號出現死亡的時候應該應該照例有做採樣 我就比較早知道 不過看起來是沒有因為他們可能就是說 認定可能是別種的 別種的病那我想要問10月10號到後來10月21號我們採到檢體這段期間 這張它有出痕嗎?它痘有出痕嗎?"},{"start":207.488,"end":229.621,"text":"應該有出 應該有出資13號他有出租28隻到大安的肉品市場大安肉品市場對 台中市的大安肉品市場喔喔 台中的大安肉品市場13號還有出28隻對 不過這28隻進到肉品市場以外他一定會照我們的"},{"start":231.296,"end":251.313,"text":"那個程序 圖前會去觀察動物的樣態圖後會做 獸醫師會解剖以後有沒有去看他的一個內臟的部分是不是有病徵 都安全了我們都也會反覆啊1月13號根本在全福祉啊因為後來你們去檢測你們在21號檢測的時候就是你們的每一個檢體定義每一個檢體都有陽性嘛 非洲豬瘟陽性嘛 對不對21號齁"},{"start":259.119,"end":261.12,"text":"21號後你們開始採樣後21號的時候我們採樣完了是兩頭豬八個檢體是陽性然後我們當天開應變會議以後馬上再去現場採三頭豬15個樣品所以這個五頭豬"},{"start":278.877,"end":297.047,"text":"都有驗到陽性23個樣品全部都是陽性這樣比例來講是百分百喔都是發病然後其他的全部都撲殺全部都撲殺還是要跟委員說明齁因為即使他有出租到大安肉品市場他的圖前跟圖後的檢查都是"},{"start":297.927,"end":313.719,"text":"就是沒有症狀的部分然後更重要的是這些豬肉它本身它就算有這些非洲豬瘟它不會人吃的是沒有問題的而且這個病毒不會人傳人柏定你是這樣說的不對啦我感覺以這個時序來說10月10號已經發現死亡縱使他們懷疑是別種的病然後他們在用藥以10月13日出20倍"},{"start":325.828,"end":350.003,"text":"出了28隻豬到後端市場這個時候是不是潛伏期 不知道 已經很可怕了那10月14號台中市凍飽處前往訪視然後也沒有採樣10月14號發現異常的死亡到底13號跟14號就短短的一天內發生什麼事情13號還有辦法28隻豬出到市場14號去就說異常死亡"},{"start":356.124,"end":382.977,"text":"那有沒有可能異常死亡是在提早就發生了11號就發生了 12號就發生了我們在整個的處理過程中我們調了那個畫質的資料大概他總共有五天的有異常的死亡的一個現象那五天都有就對了對 透過畫質廠的監控的部分但是在現場上面來講因為他有特約收益師所以我們這個部分還要做詳細的疫調"},{"start":384.258,"end":403.058,"text":"我感覺這個也是要做一個疫調的一個重點因為這28隻豬它跑到市場如果你們以後端來看我們在21號我們農業部開始採樣檢查後總共驗了5隻豬然後你說用了差不多超過15個採樣15個採樣全部是陽性"},{"start":407.322,"end":431.83,"text":"那推論起來就是他整場感染嘛那如果整場感染的話13號處理那些地下有危險嗎這我們不知道這可能變成一個破口部長要正視這個狀況對我們就是因為因為現在的時序大概都是由台中市動保處的人員做一個說明的部分但是說明只是只是動保處人員說明我們還要去問事主"},{"start":432.31,"end":441.057,"text":"那市主是不是其實已經知道而隱匿不報那是更嚴重的事情說實在我就是要說隱匿不報啦所以這個部分我們要透過疫調我就是要感覺這樣因為10號他就開始有懷疑啊14號東寶柱去也還沒採樣不知道這中他就出事了"},{"start":450.967,"end":463.579,"text":"我覺得這樣要查清楚對 這個才是我們疫調的一個重點我們一定是完成疫調以後會如實的對外公開那他出到了市場之後市場後端的一個狀況這個也應該要掌握"},{"start":464.517,"end":485.394,"text":"好 這個我們來瞭解因為現在28隻你說到了台中後端的市場嘛對 我想 委員意思是說到了大安市場的後端的一個流處我想我們也可以來追蹤這顆零碼要追蹤因為這個事情非同小可可以說朱文他會整個把我們這幾年我們努力的這個全部打破掉"},{"start":485.894,"end":508.059,"text":"那最後我再問一下啦現在說台中是沒辦法配合火化這一些應該要火化的豬那這問題是怎樣我想我們昨天就遇到兩個問題就是有化智場的縣市他就不允許部分的縣市不允許其他縣市進到化智場那這樣的話會造成就是說一般的一般正常的病死豬"},{"start":508.979,"end":525.575,"text":"沒有 沒有進到化資廠就亂丟啦然後第二個部分就是台東市的部分因為掩埋有掩埋的規範但是掩埋也不是最好的方式所以我們昨天協調台東市政府所以保證你是注定要要火化啦要火化 所以我們要火化 你就介入嘛對 我們協調了那個什麼協調了台東市環保局跟農業處這邊就是進到火化"},{"start":531.48,"end":532.24,"text":"我們會來協助我們中央我們來協助"},{"start":558.13,"end":578.194,"text":"這就是火化啦 不要讓人家說要掩埋啦現在大家聽到掩埋 新來的都開始在那裡糾纏說這掩埋的會怎樣 要怎麼處理所以我們會來處理 我們就大家一起做沒關係啦我們會來協助 就是那裡就地就完成把它全部燒掉就像你主張的這樣好不好 這件事一定要貫徹好不好 部長 這件事"},{"start":581.155,"end":599.124,"text":"每一個時間都是黃金時刻 我覺得一定要該做的動作都要把它做到到位因為剛才講的這些東西 我們在中央應變中心都有正式的決議那因為依照相關的規定 中央應變中心的一個決議地方政府是應該要配合的啦 當然啦所以我們會來做溝通的 他們要配合 你們有時該強制就強制啦 了解好 OK 好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":835,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時28分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，因為臺中梧棲養豬場驗出非洲豬瘟病毒這件事情真的是讓大家人心惶惶，我想再跟部長確認，因為早上很多委員質詢的時候也有提到現在禁運禁宰以及廚餘管制的期間，請問這些措施大概會是幾天的時間？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們現在所實施的比較積極的兩個作法，一個是全國性的禁運禁宰及禁止廚餘養豬，這個考量都是為了做比較完整的疫調，讓傳播鏈不會因為其他因素而擴散。因為潛伏期的規定是15天，所以我們就是訂15天，但是在15天之內，我們會用5天為一個週期觀察，包括臺中市這些關聯性的養豬場，我們希望5天之內就能夠有一些初步的結果。我們在不同的5天的觀察期，如果它的情況是可被控制的，相對的，我們可能對其他縣市在某個程度會開始逐步開放部分或是全部開放。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以原則是15天，但是以5天為週期去看接下來疫調的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以現在已經進行全面性的疫調了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在已經分兩個層次，一個層次是針對臺中市的疫調，關聯場的疫調是最嚴謹的，然後另外一個是臺中市以外的這些養豬場，我們也是透過中央應變中心，各縣市的防疫人員都會到豬場，不管是透過電話訪視或是現場訪視，去了解豬隻的健康狀況。相對的，這個部分我們會定期的將這些階段性的工作成果對外做說明。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我想要問一下，因為現在國人對於這一次臺中梧棲養豬場事件的整個時序還是充滿著疑惑，從10月10號這個豬場開始出現豬隻死亡，他們當時是懷疑感染了胸膜型肺炎，他們認定為胸膜型肺炎，所以在10月10號的時候並沒有去做全面的採樣跟監控，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：根據臺中市動保處人員的陳述的確是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果在10月10號出現豬隻死亡的時候有做採樣，就可以比較早知道，但是看起來是沒有這樣做，因為他們可能認定是別種的疾病。我想要問的是，從10月10號到後來10月21號我們採到檢體的這段期間，這個豬場有出豬嗎？他們的豬隻有出去嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該有出，13號有出豬28隻到大安肉品市場。"],["蔡委員易餘：大安肉品市場？"],["陳部長駿季：對，臺中市的大安肉品市場。"],["蔡委員易餘：喔，臺中的大安肉品市場？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：13號還有出28隻？"],["陳部長駿季：對，不過這28隻進到肉品市場以後，一定會照我們的程序，屠前會觀察動物的樣態，屠後、解剖後獸醫師也會去檢查內臟部分是不是有病徵，都是安全的。"],["蔡委員易餘：不過我們也還是會擔心13號會不會還在潛伏期，因為後來你們在21號檢測的時候，你們所採的每一個檢體都有驗到非洲豬瘟病毒呈陽性反應嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：21號後、你們開始採樣後。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，21號的時候，我們採樣檢測的結果是兩頭豬、8個檢體是陽性，然後我們當天開應變會議以後，馬上再去現場採三頭豬、15個樣品，所以這五頭豬……"],["蔡委員易餘：都有驗到陽性？"],["陳部長駿季：23個樣品全部都是陽性，但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣的比率是百分百喔！"],["陳部長駿季：對，都在發病，所以其他的就全部做撲殺。"],["蔡委員易餘：全部撲殺？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是要跟委員說明，即使他有出豬到大安肉品市場，在屠前跟屠後的檢查都是沒有症狀，然後更重要的是，這些豬肉本身就算有非洲豬瘟，但人吃了是沒有問題的，這個病毒不會人傳人，所以我希望……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你是這樣說沒錯啦，不過我覺得以這個時序來說，10月10號已經發現豬隻死亡，縱使他們懷疑是別種疾病，然後他們去用藥，10月13號還出豬28隻到後端市場，這個時候是不是潛伏期不知道，已經很可怕了，10月14號臺中市動保處前往訪視時也沒有採樣，10月14號發現豬隻異常死亡，13號跟14號這短短的一天內發生了什麼事情？13號還有辦法出豬28隻到市場，14號去就說異常死亡！"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想……"],["蔡委員易餘：有沒有可能異常死亡是更早就發生了？會不會11號、12號就發生了？"],["陳部長駿季：在整個處理過程中，我們有調化製的資料，大概總共有5天是有異常的死亡現象，透過化製場……"],["蔡委員易餘：5天都有就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，透過化製場的監控部分，但是以現場來講，因為它有特約獸醫師，所以我們對於這個部分還要做詳細的疫調，因為……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這個也是要作為疫調的一個重點……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個會詳細的……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這28隻豬有流入市場，如果以後端來看，從21號農業部開始採樣檢查後，總共驗了5隻豬、超過15個採樣，檢驗結果全部是陽性，那推論起來就是整場感染嘛！如果是整場感染的話，13號出去的那些豬是不是危險的，這個我們不知道，不過這有可能變成一個破口。部長，要正視這個狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為現在的時序大概都是由臺中市動保處人員所做的說明，但是這個說明只是動保處人員的說明，我們還要去問飼主，飼主是不是其實已經知道而隱匿不報？如果是這樣，那是更嚴重的事情。"],["蔡委員易餘：說實在的，我就是要談隱匿不報啦！"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分我們要透過疫調……"],["蔡委員易餘：我就覺得是這樣，因為10號他就開始有懷疑了，但14號動保處去卻沒有採樣，而這中間的13號他還有出豬，我覺得這個要查清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個才是我們疫調的一個重點，我們一定會在完成疫調後如實的對外公開。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，他出豬到市場之後，市場後端的狀況也應該要掌握。"],["陳部長駿季：好，這個我們來了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，因為這28隻你說是到了臺中後端的市場嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，委員的意思是說到了大安市場的後端流處，我想我們也可以追蹤。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個可能也要去追蹤，因為這個事情非同小可，非洲豬瘟會整個把我們這幾年的努力全部打破掉。","最後，我再問一下，現在說臺中市沒辦法配合火化這些應該要火化的豬，請問這個問題是怎樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們昨天遇到兩個問題，就是有化製場的部分縣市不允許其他縣市的死豬進到化製場，這樣的話會造成一般正常的病死豬沒有進到化製場就被亂丟啦。第二個部分就是臺中市的部分，因為掩埋有掩埋的規範，但是掩埋也不是最好的方式，所以我們昨天協調臺中市政府……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長是主張要火化？"],["陳部長駿季：要火化，所以我們協調……"],["蔡委員易餘：要火化，你就介入嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們有協調臺中市環保局跟農業處，就是進焚化爐來處理，但是因為太大隻的不能進焚化爐，所以我們使用生物處理機，就是我們調度了一些生物處理機在焚化爐那邊，部分豬隻做完生物處理後再進到焚化階段，環境部這邊也協助了，因為臺中市的豬是不能流出的，我們會儘可能的協助……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是在他們的焚化爐協助啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得我們中央要提供協助啦，就在那邊火化，不要讓他們再用掩埋的了……"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在大家聽到掩埋，心裡都開始糾葛，很擔心掩埋後會不會從掩埋場又擴散出去……"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們就給予協助，沒關係啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：就在那邊就地完成，把牠們全部燒掉，就像你主張的這樣，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，了解，我們會堅持這樣的方式。"],["蔡委員易餘：這件事一定要貫徹，好不好？部長，每一個時間都是黃金時刻，我覺得一定要把該做的動作都要做到位。"],["陳部長駿季：因為剛才講的這些東西，我們在中央應變中心都有正式決議，依照相關的規定，對於中央應變中心的決議，地方政府是應該要配合的，所以我們會來做溝通。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦，他們要配合，所以你們有時該強制的就要強制啦！"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳培瑜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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再加例外天條就不會變成是天條房地產業在說所以政府一邊在踩油門另外一邊在踩"},{"start":166.691,"end":183.605,"text":"一邊在踩煞車一邊踩油門這台車可能會壞掉我看這個很嚴重政府的部門的行政好像腳步不太一樣我想請教您當然我很佩服您堅持這個勇氣也是跟你支持但是您有說過"},{"start":185.606,"end":200.479,"text":"房地產產業是不是為驅動經濟成長之主力以營建工程業 浦東產產對經濟貢獻以及收購員工比例低的這個因素這個央行給我們的參考資料說否定這一題就是說房地產不是火車頭"},{"start":201.86,"end":205.281,"text":"你們有給我們資料我想告訴你在2020年的時候那時候的內政部長叫做徐國勇現在的執政黨的秘書長他說不動產是真正的火車頭這是他說法 媒體有報導房地產業是護國群山真正的火車頭因為帶動了上下游各個行業包括各個產業的發展"},{"start":229.351,"end":233.374,"text":"你的言論跟現在執政黨秘書長不大一樣你會不會感受到執政黨的壓力不會 不會嗎你能撐得住嗎不 我們只是就數據我們來顯現它對我們GDP的一個貢獻因為像我們看到你們一樣所以你在第四季總結到的時候會不會選擇放寬選擇性信用管制以現在的情形"},{"start":254.309,"end":258.492,"text":"我們會繼續的滾動式的檢討但是呢我目前我也很難去跟委員說到今天為止的情形到目前為止的話來看的話因為跟我們9月的跟我們9月我們的禮監事的時間還很短"},{"start":275.623,"end":301.543,"text":"這間中間還不會啦到目前為止以後還有兩個月不知道啦但是到目前為止還不會選擇性放寬嘛但是這個你如果你這樣站得很穩希望這個房價有所鬆動當然現在房地產業也都是這樣看但在這之前在行政院提出這個新清安的那件事情把你天條給它解禁以後事實上整個又起了很大的變化不然本來我們覺得鬆動鬆動可能有可能往下了比較恢復一點正常"},{"start":302.444,"end":325.767,"text":"不只年輕人 各個年齡層人有有還有剛性虛有痛比較可以慢慢負擔得起當然也還是太高但是慢慢負擔但是我看你的你雖然這麼堅持但是我看行政院如果一直在走不同的路你在煞車行政院一直在加油的話我看這個也是很艱辛您這個當然您是獨立但是獨立這個也是很艱辛希望您還是維持一樣有骨氣我們跟你支持"},{"start":327.869,"end":352.257,"text":"謝謝總裁我們想請教財經公司高鐵的話緊急停用台灣Pay的部分您是台灣Pay你們公司是台灣Pay的開發運營者對吧跟委員報告你們是嗎你們是嗎你們弄了一個平台銀行 電子產業 商業 商家都可以做電子支付平台你知道為什麼高鐵緊急停用台灣Pay嗎"},{"start":353.099,"end":365.132,"text":"跟委員報告就是高鐵是因為他購票用台灣Pay購票之後有被詐騙利用然後去退現金因為你購票上面顯示是現金票捐上面顯示現金所以去退票的時候就退了現金"},{"start":368.815,"end":392.346,"text":"結果被詐騙集我們詐騙集團都這詐騙集團都時代很進步他們都跟著很多這個發展這個很多人都不知道上面可以用這個方法詐騙集團時時在關注任何可能的詐騙漏洞詐騙集團就用這個東西因為這樣退票的時候領先不用驗證個資就變成他們鑽漏洞台灣詐騙這麼猖獗實在是詐騙集團也花了很多心力在這個看怎麼來鑽漏洞但是我們身為政府的公司"},{"start":393.687,"end":410.789,"text":"財經公司身為政府的公司事實上在設計這個前面的這些整個過程或是整個過程的時候事實上也應該要非常的小心尤其你們是代表政府跟委員報告就是我們的機制上面來看那這些高鐵他們所以不是你們的問題是高鐵的問題就對了"},{"start":412.11,"end":432.598,"text":"因為就是機制上面所以你意思是告訴我沒關係你告訴我財經公司沒有問題這個漏洞是高鐵的問題因為印出來是高鐵印的票嘛是機制上面財經訂的是沒有問題是財經公司設計上的問題還是高鐵印製的問題嘛因為他印出現金讓他可以現金然後高鐵就用現金給人家退啊以這個個案來看是高鐵不是個案啦整個案子啦"},{"start":433.239,"end":442.317,"text":"因為台灣變成洗錢的管道這個高鐵這個事情來看是高鐵公司跟收單銀行合作產生的問題所以是那家銀行的問題還是高鐵的問題是合作銀行的問題嗎"},{"start":443.383,"end":470.83,"text":"因為這個合作銀行就是這個售單銀行要跟高鐵去協商他怎麼去印製這些東西所以是售單銀行那是哪一家售單銀行這個高鐵的售單目前是台新銀行台新銀行 OK好 那沒關係這個東西我們會跟金管會再繼續請教你的意思是財經公司沒有問題就對了在機制上沒有問題規定上也是要退到原帳戶你們要非常的注意尤其你們是國家的就是一定要注意你們不能"},{"start":472.35,"end":492.505,"text":"不停止詐騙還那個變成你們理論上你們是要讓詐騙很多洞都讓詐騙團不能猖獗因為詐騙太猖獗已經變成一個很大的產業了你們還讓詐騙團有洞可以鑽那高鐵當然如果照你這樣講高鐵我也會去問他們高鐵當然負很大的責任那當然相對應的銀行我們也會跟金管會相關單位來請他們來檢討來講一下下一題數位券的問題"},{"start":498.103,"end":516.033,"text":"那你是高鐵問題是你說的嗎來我相信你了數位券的問題你沒有在中央銀行指導下做一個數位公共建設的金流平台數位券這個相當好把所有的民眾習慣APP什麼這些都整合在一起變成一個多營的這個生態體系我覺得這個也是非常支持"},{"start":516.653,"end":541.054,"text":"那這個東西又借街的速發布的這個政府機關公用平台那因為台灣的這個數位支付這個東西實在是比較慢大家如果有去過中國大陸我知道大陸真的是很快很進步各方面都尤其在數位這個發展的部分那沒關係我們進步慢沒關係但是我們至少不要有一些容易被詐騙或中間的這個很多漏洞甚至怎麼樣鼓勵大家可以這樣使用電子支付也比較符合這個資源的這個比較不浪費資源"},{"start":544.497,"end":552.863,"text":"那想請教你這個整合完成喔這個縣市政府如果有自行發行的這個數位券你是不是可以順利也可以讓各縣市政府借接到你們這個平台上"},{"start":553.67,"end":576.989,"text":"跟委員報告這個平台是可以支援這種服務的可以嗎好那我跟你說一下我們金門縣政府115年明年開始會發一個感恩券這個感恩券以前是我們發那個酒感恩量酒那現在為了促進這個地區的消費促進做一個新循環的經濟那把要發給老百姓的一些福利原來的現金給付的福利變成本來是慰助酒品感恩量變成明年春節開始變成發券"},{"start":580.151,"end":602.076,"text":"券紙張紙張一張一張的等於是消費券那種券我們叫感恩券那這個感恩券現在是紙本那未來是不是可以用數位券的方式因為這樣可以配合比如我們有些商家做電子支付嘛做這個電子的線上的這個購物嘛然後這個我們有一些鄉親可能在台灣地區居住不是在金門啦在台灣那也可以用數位的這個"},{"start":603.977,"end":615.188,"text":"這個券的方式在上電子網去購買電商我們金門的相關商因為我們目的是要促進金門的這個經濟發展嘛那這部分我們財經公司是不是可以來協助我們金門縣主來規劃來借鑑可以喔 那來聯絡我一下好 謝謝您好 謝謝陳一貞委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1446,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時26分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["陳委員玉珍：然後等一下要請財經公司董事長，等一下下一題啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：陳委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：總裁，去年9月19日有「金龍海嘯」嘛，楊金龍海嘯，今年9月18日我們央行的理監事會，你們的打房重點是維持第七波的選擇性信用管制，到今年第四季要做總檢討嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你覺得從去年到現在，去年我們在這邊質詢的時候，您在這邊備詢時說，希望今年中房價可以慢慢地向下調整，你覺得現在國內的房價發展有沒有符合你當初說的慢慢向下調整？到目前為止。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，是有慢慢地，剛剛有委員才講，有啦，但就是不夠大。"],["陳委員玉珍：不夠，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：他認為是不夠大。"],["陳委員玉珍：不夠嘛？本來其實已經在僵持了，我看買方、賣方已經在僵持，但是前一陣子是上個月吧，新青安的貸款不算入這個裡頭以後，整個一大部分又灌進來嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上要給年輕人買得起房子，不是一直給他貸款啦，如果房價可以便宜一點的話、可以低一點的話，年輕人可能更容易買得起房子。我想請教您，關於停止信用管制的指標，我們一直在講全部銀行的不動產貸款占總放款的比例太高嘛，就是貸款集中度太高……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：到8月分的貸款集中度是36.71，當時你們啟動第一波的時候、那時候2020年12月8號的時候，那時候的不動產貸款集中度是35.9，所以你的標準是在哪裡？到時候你停止信用管制的指標會在哪個階段呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，集中度是一個很重要的觀察指標……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是中央銀行不是只有觀察它而已啦，我們還有觀察一些其它的指標，包括我們的不動產的信用……"],["陳委員玉珍：指數啦？"],["楊總裁金龍：信用的那個……對啦，指數也是啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是如果我們……"],["楊總裁金龍：指數也是啦，還有就是說房價的……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，很多指數嘛，還有整個房價的趨勢啦……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，房價的趨勢。"],["陳委員玉珍：很多啦，我理解。但是對於大家以前以為的天條，如果我們行政院動不動就對這個天條再加例外、再加例外、再加例外的話，那這個天條就不會變成是天條嘛，這部分房地產業也在說啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以政府一邊在踩煞車，另外一邊在踩油門，這臺車有可能會壞掉啦，我看這個很嚴重啦！我們政府部門行政的腳步好像不大一樣。","我想請教您，當然我很佩服您堅持的勇氣，也是給你支持啦。但是您有說過，房地產業是否為驅動經濟成長之主力，以營建工程業和不動產業對經濟成長的貢獻及受僱員工人數比重都很低的因素，央行給我們的參考資料說否定這一題，就是說房地產不是火車頭嘛，你們有給我們這個資料啦？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是啦，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我想告訴你，在2020年的時候，那時候的內政部長叫做徐國勇，現在執政黨的秘書長，他說不動產是真正的火車頭，這是他的說法，媒體有報導，房地產業是護國群山，真正的火車頭，因為帶動了上下游各個行業，包括各個產業的發展。你的言論跟現在執政黨的秘書長不大一樣，那你會不會感受到執政黨的壓力啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：不會嗎？你能撐得住嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們只是就數據來顯現它對我們GDP的貢獻，對整個產業的貢獻……"],["陳委員玉珍：好。所以你在第四季總檢討的時候會不會選擇放寬選擇性信用管制？以現在這個情形。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會繼續滾動式檢討。"],["陳委員玉珍：到今天為止，現在是10月嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：目前我也很難跟委員說……"],["陳委員玉珍：假設到今天為止的情形呢？因為明天也不知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止來看的話，因為距離9月的理監事會議時間還很短，這中間……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，所以到目前為止還不會，但以後還有兩個月不知道？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是到目前為止還不會選擇性放寬。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：你當然站得很穩，希望房價有所鬆動，現在房地產業也都是這樣看。但在這之前行政院提出新青安那件事情，把天條給解禁以後，事實上整個又起了很大的變化，本來我們覺得鬆動、鬆動，有可能往下了，比較恢復一點正常，不只讓年輕人，也讓各個年齡層的人，還有剛性需求的都比較可以慢慢負擔得起，雖然還是太高，但慢慢可以負擔。你雖然這麼堅持，但是我看行政院如果一直在走不同的路，你在煞車，行政院一直在加油的話，我看這個也是很艱辛啦！當然您是獨立的，但獨立也是很艱辛啦！希望您還是維持一樣有骨氣，我們給你支持。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝總裁。","繼續想請教財金公司，有關高鐵緊急停用台灣Pay的部分，你們公司是台灣Pay的開發運營者，對吧？你們是嗎？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，我們沒有實際參與最前面的……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是QR Code的共通支付標準。"],["林董事長國良：QR Code共通標準是我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們弄了一個平臺，銀行、電子產業、商家都可以做電子支付平臺。你知道為什麼高鐵緊急停用台灣Pay嗎？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，高鐵是因為用台灣Pay購票之後被詐騙利用，然後去退現金。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為票券上面顯示是現金，所以去退票的時候就退現金，結果被詐騙集團……時代很進步，詐騙集團都跟著發展，很多人都不知道可以用這個方法，但詐騙集團時時在關注任何可能的詐騙漏洞，詐騙集團就用這個東西，因為這樣退票的時候領現不用驗證個資，所以就變成他們鑽漏洞，臺灣詐騙這麼猖獗，實在是詐騙集團也花了很多心力看怎麼鑽漏洞。但是財金公司身為政府的公司，事實上在前面設計整個過程的時候也應該要非常的小心，尤其你們是代表政府。"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，就我們的機制上來看，高鐵……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以不是你們的問題，是高鐵的問題就對了？"],["林董事長國良：因為機制是退款要退到原帳戶。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，你告訴我財金公司有沒有問題？這個漏洞是高鐵的問題？因為是高鐵印的票嘛！"],["林董事長國良：機制上面財金公司是沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我是誰的問題，是財金公司設計上的問題，還是高鐵印製的問題？因為它印出「現金」，就讓他可以拿現金，然後高鐵就用現金給人家退啊！"],["林董事長國良：以這個個案來看是高鐵……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是個案啦，是整個案子，因為台灣Pay變成洗錢的管道。"],["林董事長國良：高鐵這個事情來看是高鐵的……"],["陳委員玉珍：是高鐵的問題嘛！"],["林董事長國良：是高鐵公司跟收單銀行合作產生的問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是那家銀行的問題，還是高鐵的問題？是合作銀行的問題嗎？"],["林董事長國良：就是收單銀行要跟高鐵去協商怎麼去印製這些東西。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是收單銀行的問題，那是哪一家收單銀行？"],["林董事長國良：高鐵的收單目前是台新銀行。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，沒關係，這個東西我們會跟金管會再繼續請教。你的意思是財金公司沒有問題就對了？"],["林董事長國良：在機制上沒有問題，規定上也是要退到原帳戶。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你們要非常的注意，尤其你們是國家的。"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要注意，理論上你們是要讓詐騙集團不能猖獗，因為詐騙太猖獗，已經變成一個很大的產業了，結果你們還讓詐騙集團有洞可以鑽。如果照你這樣講，我也會去問高鐵，高鐵當然要負很大的責任，但是相對應的銀行，我們也會要求金管會相關單位請他們檢討。"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：繼續請教有關數位券的問題，高鐵的問題是你說的嘛！我相信你啦！針對數位券的問題，你們在中央銀行指導下有做一個「數位公共建設金流平臺─數位券」，這相當好，把民眾習慣的所有app這些都整合在一起，變成一個多贏的生態體系，我覺得這個也是非常支持。這個東西又介接了數發部的「政府機關發放共用平臺」，因為臺灣的數位支付這個東西實在是比較慢，大家如果有去過中國大陸就知道，大陸真的是各方面都很快、很進步，尤其在數位發展的部分。沒關係，我們進步慢沒關係，但是我們至少不要有一些容易被詐騙或是中間有很多漏洞，甚至看怎麼樣鼓勵大家可以使用，電子支付也比較符合不浪費資源。想請教你目前是否整合完成？各個縣市政府如果自行發行數位券，是不是也可以順利讓各縣市政府介接到這個平臺上？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，這個平臺是可以支援這種服務的。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嘛？"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我跟你說一下，我們金門縣政府115（明）年開始會發一個感恩券，這個感恩券以前是我們發的酒──感恩釀，現在為了促進這個地區的消費，促進新循環經濟，把要發給老百姓的一些福利，像是原來的現金給付福利，本來是慰助酒品（感恩釀），明年春節開始就變成發「券」，一張一張的紙張，等於是消費券那種券，我們叫感恩券，這個感恩券現在是紙本，未來是不是可以用數位券的方式？這樣可以配合一些商家做電子支付，進行電子線上購物，因為我們有一些鄉親可能在臺灣地區居住，而不是在金門，那就可以用數位券的方式上網去購買金門的相關商品，因為我們目的是要促進金門的經濟發展，針對這部分，財金公司是不是可以協助金門縣政府規劃介接？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，是可以的。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那來聯絡一下。"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝您。"],["林董事長國良：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d31008d0bc77ebc8dd8c2d94e6d34c5cc9378985d1c29b3fea48780db23e8b7b075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:20:39 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林委員"},{"start":9.447,"end":34.214,"text":"部長早安我要提的這個命題當然我想是現在全民針對這個國防部比較關心的那當然就是防範散兵這個議題喔那麼當然我們知道喔最近如果您有留意到這些社群平台當中就提到身為公眾人物尤其是藝人大概就是"},{"start":35.094,"end":53.224,"text":"造他的這個所謂社會形象來讓粉絲買單那麼一個藝人紅不紅當然我覺得作為我們一樣是政治人物的部分我們沒有辦法去做太多的評論但是相較於我們鄰近的韓國他們每一個"},{"start":54.764,"end":76.017,"text":"韓國的男性的藝人只要是不當兵或者是找到理由不當兵被社會發現的話就會出現根本不要在娛樂圈混了那麼我覺得這當然也是跟國情有點不一樣那麼對於現在這些藝人到底他們是用了什麼樣的方式能夠不服兵役那麼這個部分我相信檢調單位以及內政部也都說了要把這些相關的規範再來做報導"},{"start":83.482,"end":107.194,"text":"但是身為這個所謂的兵役的主管機關我想要請這個部長先看一下一個影片好了因為這個影片我自己看了覺得這跟真的是在人情世故上面台灣也許真的很多的藝人朋友應該也要看一下這個影片我來放一下這個是韓國的藝人玄冰我想這個"},{"start":114.209,"end":132.141,"text":"他在退役的时候他办了一个粉丝在营区当中迎接他那他为了感谢这个粉丝等了他三年喔那么他甚至于是直接在这个营区外面喔对粉丝行这个他们韩国叫做大礼啦那"},{"start":134.537,"end":159.368,"text":"我真的是覺得身為這個國防委員台灣的這些藝人朋友們真的要看一看就是如果你去當兵而且你為國家做奉獻我相信這個你對國家做出奉獻的這種榮譽感粉絲不會離開你而且粉絲會真的覺得你要對國家有所付出所以今天回到部長我這前情提要講的比較久那就是"},{"start":162.25,"end":190.596,"text":"在這個現在被揭露的閃兵的名單當中喔甚至於還有人是有拿到了這個我們的所謂三金就是金鐘 金馬 金曲有提名的甚至於有得獎的那我要強調的就是如果說現在他被發現他是用各種不法的手段逃避了兵役"},{"start":192.112,"end":213.708,"text":"結果我們的國家文化部還給他三金的獎勵這不是很諷刺嗎所以部長我當然知道這是文化部的事但是身為這個主管機關部長有沒有可能跟文化部商量對於這些身為公眾人物尤其是藝人就是靠形象來賺取社會上面或者是粉絲上面給他們"},{"start":220.526,"end":243.562,"text":"的支持的時候 那像這樣的獎項是不是應該要拿回來至少我們覺得他不足以拿到這樣的榮譽 是吧 部長你怎麼看我想一南意圖以這些不法的手段來逃避兵役那是有將由內政部來依法 以送檢調來偵辦那我們認為"},{"start":248.486,"end":274.032,"text":"這樣子的一種不法的這種方式來規避這個兵役的義務的話當然我們都是深切認為要期期以為不可啦所以國安部的態度當然是希望就是說大家都要服他應盡的義務那不要有妨礙兵役的這樣子的一個行為"},{"start":275.382,"end":289.51,"text":"因為我真的 我認為啦這個說起來藝人他一定會有示範的作用現在在民間當然從一開始這個事件爆發從王大陸開始一直到現在幾個被約談的藝人來講我覺得他就是一種示範的作用"},{"start":294.332,"end":317.92,"text":"那這樣的示範的作用當然是錯誤的示範或是不良的示範我會特別提起這個部分是除了他應該要面對的法律責任之外我是不是可以請部長可以跟文化部做跨部會的一個商量甚至於要提出這樣的一個建議這是本席的建議但是我認為這個必須要有一些做法否則對這些藝人來講他可能說我就出來道個歉反正呢也過了這麼多年了但是這種榮譽"},{"start":324.142,"end":340.349,"text":"國家不應該給雖然說各個部會之間是平行的但是總不能是因為部長你認為岐岐不可的事情但是文化部所主辦的三金金鐘金馬金曲還頒獎給他那雖然說這個是已經得拿到的獎項那已經拿到的獎項能不能沒收 能不能把他要求拿回來我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮"},{"start":354.91,"end":381.007,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是對這樣的一個行為要予以譴責但是就這個有關相關他得獎的這個部分的話我想我們還是要尊重文化部的權責好沒有關係這通通的題目我也會來問文化部但是至少部長這樣的做法就是一個不良示範那如果國家還給予其他獎項的肯定那這不等於是打臉國防部嗎"},{"start":382.128,"end":398.835,"text":"而不是打臉那些其他來禁服兵役的禁義務的人嗎就是他一方面他可以這個用盡各種方法不履行國民的義務但是一方面他可以欸這不是不只是拿獎欸拿獎還可以拿獎金欸那我覺得像這樣的"},{"start":402.176,"end":426.213,"text":"我覺得身為公眾人物或是身為藝人這是覺得岂其不可違但是我相信部長因為你講得很清楚啦這個不是國防部的業務那沒有問題我也會來跟文化部長來做詢答那麼第二個當然我們要扭轉喔這個有關於當兵的負面印象國防部這一針對你們所提出來的報告就是我們現在在國軍招募已經有成了但是還是有一些努力的空間喔那麼國防部目前呢在"},{"start":429.695,"end":442.689,"text":"到9月30號為止流行率是有到86.7%那麼比以往要來的高那麼在9月30號已經招募了13000多人那麼也達到了目標的89%那麼在這個部分喔"},{"start":445.631,"end":462.296,"text":"為什麼我會用這個有關於閃兵的這個部分來做開頭就是我相信我們在有關於提升不論是自願役或是義務役的薪資的部分還有在整個設備的部分其實都有做努力那麼部長這邊或是國防部這裡認為還有沒有什麼可以加強的部分我想我們主要就是說讓這個整個"},{"start":472.116,"end":488.164,"text":"著重於這個戰備演訓的這個這個核心任務這一塊然後讓他們覺得當兵是具有一個榮譽感然後而且我們對相關的管理要"},{"start":489.249,"end":513.72,"text":"我一直提的這個檢法思維的這樣的一個管理的作為然後另外呢我想對於冠病的實質照顧我們也要來提升那相關這些應該如果有有不適應的這個現象的話我們也要從事一個相關的輔導讓他能夠有一個能夠持續的願意為國來來服務這樣"},{"start":516.84,"end":530.344,"text":"好 所以其實不只是物質上 薪資上在心理上其實部長剛剛也特別提到了所以本席要來請問一下就是我稍微看了一下115年度的預算就是114年度在三讀之後 政戰局是388萬軍醫局是1360萬一共是總計是1748萬但是我們115年度全部就都編在政戰局裡面就是有關於"},{"start":545.649,"end":552.311,"text":"國軍的心理健康照顧的這個部分其實從問卷上面來看都很滿意啊這個同意繼續維持或者是覺得對於官兵在身心上面的照顧的都是同意加上渴的加起來都高達99%大家幾乎都覺得不錯可是為什麼這個預算反而少了300萬可以理解可不可以講一下"},{"start":572.876,"end":597.375,"text":"在野黨的委員 或者是我們這些立法委員都還沒有砍預算你們就自己把預算往下降原因在哪裡 如果大家都覺得很滿意委員好 我是政政局長跟你報告 因為這個心理衛生 心理健康的這個照護方案是從今年的2月13號開始實行也就是說它今年是第一次辦所以我們在預估它所需的人數上面我們是依照衛福部的這個年輕族群的一個覆蓋比的一個算法"},{"start":602.219,"end":613.971,"text":"那當然我們在宣傳上面我們還要持續在努力我們是依照今年去使用的人數去推估明年可以去運用這項方案 善用這項資源的人數所以這個方案我們會持續在這個準決預算就是精準去使用這項預算的一個考量之下那我們未來會持續努力的去推廣這項的服務"},{"start":625.683,"end":629.826,"text":"局長您的言下之意是您認為使用的人數會變少嗎不然預算減少只有兩個原因一個大概就是費用變便便宜但是我認為像這樣的費用一定是有它的這個就是一定的標準在那裡嘛"},{"start":642.014,"end":664.383,"text":"那一定就是人變少那麼您認為人變少是因為使用的人會變少大家心裡都變健康了嗎我想局長的意思應該是說我們今年的2月13號到9月30號我們依照這個使用的人數來推估明年然後來核實來編列所以你們就是已經很核實編列了已經滯降300萬"},{"start":666.785,"end":670.087,"text":"這個部分可能要 我覺得是很關心你們 因為我認為喔 這個心理輔導的 過去大概都說Paul 是輔導長或是說做一些身心上面的調節這是我 我沒有當過兵啦 我是在這個軍教電影裡面看到好 那現在我們有專業的心理師 在做協助的時候那我其實比較好奇的是 這樣的算法是什麼"},{"start":687.278,"end":689.379,"text":"那如果說你們是真的已經核實編列編的很扎實了那在這裡你們要大聲講出來希望這個委員們不要再來砍這個預算因為我真的認為這樣的預算非常重要"},{"start":699.105,"end":715.236,"text":"謝謝委員我也非常感謝所有委員對於我們官兵心理健康的關切跟照顧那麼我們確實是依照今年預算編列後面評估他可能會會有一些餘裕的情況因為我們今年大概使用了4200多人次那我想"},{"start":717.838,"end":731.769,"text":"這樣子的一個宣傳的力度我們會持續的強化那預估到明年可能會使用的我們已經先把這個預算先做一個核實的精算了那麼未來會跟著他使用人數的狀況我們再去做調節"},{"start":732.749,"end":760.353,"text":"所以其實局長講得很清楚啦就是其實一年每一次每一個人是補助一千六然後一年其實可以有六次但是因為知道的人不多所以會使用不多所以有宣傳上面的問題但是當然我不希望說是因為也有認為說因為使用的人太多可能不太好但是我認為這兩者之間希望不是有正相關而是真的我們的國軍弟兄都是因為身心健康使用率不高是這樣子"},{"start":761.346,"end":776.197,"text":"我想我們不會說他使用過多我想我們應該多多來宣導讓這個每個人都認為有需要這樣子的一個協助的時候他都能夠得到這個經費的挹注好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時20分）謝謝主席，主席有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是，林委員。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早安。我要提的是現在全民跟國防部比較關心的，防範閃兵的議題。我們知道，最近如果你有留意到這些社群平臺，當中就有提到，身為公眾人物，尤其是藝人，大概就是照他的社會形象來讓粉絲買單。一個藝人紅不紅？當然我覺得我們作為政治人物，這個部分我們沒有辦法去做太多的評論。但是相較於鄰近的韓國，韓國男性藝人只要不當兵或者找到理由不當兵被社會發現的話，就根本不要在娛樂圈混了。我覺得這當然也是國情有點不一樣，現在這些藝人到底是用了什麼樣的方式能夠不服兵役？這個部分檢調單位以及內政部也都說了，要把這些相關的規範再來做檢討。但是身為兵役的主管機關，我想要請部長先看一下一個影片，因為這個影片我自己看了覺得在人情世故上面，臺灣也許真的很多藝人朋友應該也要看一下這個影片，我來放一下。","（播放影片）"],["林委員楚茵：這個是韓國藝人玄彬，他在退役的時候辦了一個活動，粉絲在營區當中迎接他，他為了感謝粉絲等了他3年，甚至直接在營區外面對粉絲行韓國所稱的大禮。我真覺得，身為國防委員，臺灣的這些藝人朋友們真的要看一看，如果你去當兵，而且為國家做奉獻，我相信以你對國家做出奉獻的這種榮譽感，粉絲不會離開你，而且粉絲會真的覺得你要對國家有所付出。","部長，我的前情提要講得比較久，現在被揭露的閃兵名單當中，甚至還有人是拿到所謂的「三金」，就是金鐘、金馬、金曲，有被提名的，甚至有得獎的。我要強調的是，如果現在他被發現是用各種不法手段逃避了兵役，結果我們國家的文化部還給他「三金」的獎勵，這不是很諷刺嗎？部長，我當然知道這是文化部的事，但是身為主管機關，部長有沒有可能跟文化部商量？對於這些身為公眾人物，尤其是藝人，就是靠形象賺取社會上面或者是粉絲上面給他們支持的時候，像這樣的獎項，是不是應該要拿回來？至少我們覺得他不足以拿到這樣的榮譽，是吧？部長，你怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：藝人意圖以這些不法手段逃避兵役，將由內政部依法移送檢調偵辦，我們認為以這樣的不法方式規避兵役義務的話，當然我們都是期期以為不可。"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的態度當然是希望大家都要盡應盡的義務，不要有妨害兵役這樣子的行為。"],["林委員楚茵：說起來，我認為藝人一定會有示範作用，從一開始這個事件爆發，由王大陸開始一直到現在，以幾個被約談的藝人來講，我覺得這會有示範的作用，這樣的示範作用當然是錯誤的示範或是不良的示範。我會特別提起這個部分的原因是，除了他應該要面對的法律責任之外，我是不是可以請部長跟文化部做跨部會的商量，甚至要提出這樣的一個建議？這是本席的建議，但是我認為這個必須要有一些作法，否則對這些藝人來講，他可能說我就出來道個歉，反正也過了這麼多年了。但是這種榮譽國家不應該給，雖然各個部會之間是平行的，總不能做了部長期期以為不可的事情，文化部所主辦的三金，金鐘、金馬、金曲還頒獎給他。雖然是已經拿到的獎項，能不能要求他拿回來？我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮？"],["顧部長立雄：我想國防部的立場對這樣的行為要予以譴責，但是有關他得獎的這部分，我想我們還是要尊重文化部的權責。"],["林委員楚茵：好，沒有關係。同樣的題目我也會問文化部。但是部長，這樣的作法就是一個不良示範，如果國家還給予其他獎項的肯定，這不等於是打臉國防部嗎？而且不也是打臉其他盡服兵役義務的人嗎？一方面他可以用盡各種方法，不履行國民的義務，但是一方面他不只是拿獎耶！還可以拿獎金，身為公眾人物，或者身為藝人，我期期以為不可。但是我相信部長，因為你講得很清楚，這個不是國防部的業務，那沒有問題，我也會跟文化部長做詢答。","第二個，當然我們要扭轉有關於當兵的負面印象，針對國防部所提出來的報告，你們現在在國軍招募已經有成了，但還是有些努力的空間。國防部到9月30日為止，留營率有到86.7%，比以往要來得高，在9月30日已經招募了一萬三千多人，也達到了目標的89%，針對這個部分，為什麼我會用有關於閃兵的部分來做開頭？我相信我們在有關於提升，不論是自願役或是義務役薪資的部分，還有在整個設備的部分，其實都有做努力。部長這裡或是國防部認為還有沒有什麼可以加強的部分？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們主要是在整個著重於戰備演訓的核心任務這一塊，讓他們覺得當兵具有榮譽感，而且對於相關的管理，我一直在提減法思維的管理作為。另外，對於官兵的實質照顧，我們也會來提升，如果有不適應的現象，我們也會從事相關的輔導，讓他能夠持續願意為國家來服務。"],["林委員楚茵：好。所以不只是物質上、薪資上，心理上其實部長剛剛也特別提到了。本席要請問一下，我稍微看了一下115年度的預算，在114年度預算三讀之後，政戰局是388萬、軍醫局1,360萬，總計是1,748萬，但是你們115年度全部都編在政戰局裡，有關於國軍心理健康照顧的部分，其實從問卷上面來看，都很滿意啊！同意繼續維持或者是覺得對於官兵在身心上面的照顧都是同意，加尚可的加起來都高達99%，大家幾乎都覺得不錯，可是為什麼這個預算反而少了300萬？可不可以講一下？在野黨的委員，或者是我們這些立法委員都還沒有砍預算，你們就自己把預算往下降，原因在哪裡？如果大家都覺得很滿意。"],["史局長順文：委員好。我是政戰局長，跟你報告，因為心理健康的照護方案是從今年2月13日開始試行，也就是它今年是第一次辦，所以我們在預估它所需的人數上面，我們是依照衛福部的年輕族群覆蓋比的算法，當然我們在宣傳上面，還要持續再努力，我們是依照今年使用的人數去推估明年可以運用這項方案及善用這項資源的人數，所以這個方案在撙節預算，以精準使用這項預算的考量之下，我們未來會持續努力地去推廣這項服務。"],["林委員楚茵：局長您的言下之意是您認為使用的人數會變少嗎？不然預算減少只有兩個原因，一個大概是費用變便宜，但是我認為像這樣的費用，一定是有它的標準在那裡嘛！另一個一定是人變少，您認為人變少是因為使用的人會變少，大家心理都變健康了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想局長的意思應該是我們依照今年2月13日到9月30日的使用人數來推估明年預算並核實編列。"],["林委員楚茵：所以你們已經很核實編列了，已經自降300萬。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分可能要……"],["林委員楚茵：委員是很關心你們，因為我認為這心理輔導的……過去大家都說「po-a」是輔導長嘛！或是做一些身心上面的調節，我沒有當過兵，我是在軍教電影裡看到，現在我們有專業的心理師，在做協助的時候，我其實比較好奇的是這樣的算法是什麼？如果你們真的已經核實編列，編得很扎實了，在這裡你們要大聲講出來，希望委員們不要再砍這筆預算，因為我真的認為這樣的預算非常重要。"],["史局長順文：謝謝委員。我也非常感謝所有委員對於我們官兵心理健康的關切跟照顧，我們確實是依照今年預算編列後面評估它可能會有一些餘裕的情況，因為我們今年大概使用了四千兩百多人次，我想這樣的宣傳力度，我們會持續的強化，預估到明年可能會使用的，我們已經先把這預算做核實的精算了，未來會跟著使用人數的狀況，再去做調節。"],["林委員楚茵：好。所以局長講得很清楚啦！就是一年每一次每一個人是補助1,600元，一年其實可以有6次，因為知道的人不多，造成會使用的不多，所以有宣傳上面的問題。當然我不希望也有認為說因為使用的人太多，可能不太好，但是我認為這兩者之間希望不是有正相關，而是真的是因為我們的國軍弟兄都是身心健康，所以使用率不高。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們不會說他使用過多，我們應該多多來宣導，讓每個人都認為有需要這樣協助的時候，他都能夠得到經費的挹注。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3ac4b2fea2257e11048629de9594d8cbe378985d1c29b3fea35f8edf4cfd126675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:15:19 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我請楊總裁"},{"start":20.991,"end":49.074,"text":"王委員早總裁辛苦了謝謝您鼓勵您對這個房市管控的這個部分還有在這個買賣外匯的這一個部分的堅持我是非常肯定謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵還有支持頂住很多壓力我認為最重要第一點我們就是"},{"start":50.175,"end":75.804,"text":"關於我們國家的匯率啦匯匯這一個部分因為我們國家GDP62%是出口所以我們是以出口為導向的國家所以央行要來顧及我們國家匯率的穩定這是應當的啦所以我也多次講我說其實我們政府應該默許央行有這兩大權利"},{"start":77.725,"end":96.325,"text":"第一個權利就是不說實話的權利啦這個部分第二個操作外匯的這個權利這個我們不可否的我們台灣我們"},{"start":98.377,"end":124.175,"text":"是小國寡民比起歐美日他們這些大國而言我們當然要互助我們的外匯所以這一點我是一再的堅持說一定要這麼做你看這次台幣升值的結果我們國內有那麼多的行業已經開始無薪假了他們只是因為匯率還沒有計算到"},{"start":124.955,"end":151.289,"text":"那個20%的關稅還有疊加上去的那個都不算光匯率這一波就已經讓他們幾乎沒辦法存活像這個手工機械業像這個五星類他們就是這樣所以這個部分我希望央行能夠堅持那當然這個美國那邊的控制的我覺得這三點你比我更清楚嘛你是內行你專業"},{"start":152.81,"end":169.059,"text":"這三點裡面我一再講我認為貿易順差超過200億這個沒話講我們隨便也都會超過說經常順差超過GDP3%這個我們也不敢太確定說是不是會超過這兩點"},{"start":171.32,"end":193.677,"text":"我們比較沒話講但是但是單向外匯年淨買值說要超過GDP百分之二要超過160億美金因為我們不是一天到晚在買匯吧我們也會有賣的時候你就要帶領央行去調節有時候買有時候賣但是保持它的穩定這一點"},{"start":195.018,"end":215.889,"text":"是他們永遠拿我們沒辦法的地方所以很多事情我們跟我們最大貿易往來國家大家心照不宣所以我希望你能夠頂住這個壓力繼續往對於匯率的穩定操控這個部分還是要堅持下去好不好"},{"start":217.771,"end":235.73,"text":"那其次就是關於對房市房市這個部分的壓力也蠻大的因為不可否認現在在此反對聲浪的那背後的鼓譟者很多啊會影響到他們的比方說建商"},{"start":236.874,"end":263.271,"text":"比方說房屋仲介公司比方說投資戶那這些人他們當然有他們的權益可是如果是來炒作的比方說有一些自己體質就不良的建設公司比方說有一些這個過分大膽的這些投資戶那房價這十年來漲幅這麼大"},{"start":265.543,"end":279.862,"text":"也是因為這些人所導致的因素占非常大的一個因素那這些人他們在媒體上面聲量很大因為他們常年有那麼龐大的廣告量"},{"start":280.783,"end":297.267,"text":"所以相對就會有他們製造的一些新聞那這會給我們政府壓力那政府的壓力當然就會轉嫁來請央行說是不是這個部分應該放鬆那我認為不應該我還是認為我們對於房市控管說不動產貸款"},{"start":307.24,"end":321.827,"text":"資金絕對不能超過當時存款總額的30%三成我認為這個底線一定要守住當然現在行政院有放寬說那這30%的這個設限"},{"start":326.589,"end":346.774,"text":"對新清安不計算不計入那不計入以後光上個月一個月就240億之多所以我還是認為對於新清安不設限來講但是要嚴審這些新清安是不是真正的有需要的新清安或者是人家"},{"start":347.594,"end":358.866,"text":"不管建商 仲介 炒作者他們去找出來的人頭那這個我認為是不是應該督促各銀行他們應該嚴審 你看法呢是 沒有錯委員的"},{"start":365.763,"end":377.047,"text":"對於房市的我們的信任管制一直以來都給我們很大的支持那這個真的是我又一直就說要站得住腳站得住腳也是要我們委員來協助我們來支持我們我們才站得更穩這個部分我真的非常謝謝委員這樣的一個做法"},{"start":390.911,"end":409.322,"text":"所以總裁能不能頂住這個壓力因為現在動不動就會有這個聲浪跑出來所以要頂住這個壓力而且要遂之以理就是當行政院內部在討論的時候你要把這一番道理說出來過去"},{"start":412.063,"end":431.765,"text":"你像十幾年前十六七年前美國也發生過那麼大的那個風暴造成金融風暴它造成的風暴已經造成世界級的也是導引你對不動產開始的所以這個底線一定要守住好不好你看我們這一次你強硬的"},{"start":433.947,"end":450.085,"text":"這三年來 緊縮的政策你看 緊縮這三年以來我們房屋啊我就在講我們台灣的淡黃區台北新北就好跌幅啊不到百分之二你看那麼強硬之下"},{"start":451.326,"end":470.619,"text":"房屋跌幅也不到2%等於微跌啦但是整個價值來看我們相比2020年當時的指數只有97.85現在即便下跌到這個程度房價指數還是高達150.38150"},{"start":478.475,"end":497.503,"text":"這五年來等於漲了一半所以這是不可思議的事情我們也可以引國外韓國也有很好的例子韓國他們打得比我們更嚴重他們不但全面緊縮他們房價六億元的房價"},{"start":499.424,"end":507.173,"text":"貸款總額的上限他們訂了這個絕對不動而且他們打擊外國的投資客他們針對熱區他們還把貸款層數下降"},{"start":512.307,"end":537.643,"text":"還有他們針對超過25億韓元1比50差就5000萬的豪宅他們就限貸就限制他們的貸款不打緊喔他們兩戶以上你如果貸款兩戶以上全面禁止我們還沒有喔我們只有把乘數下降我們沒有限制戶數然後他們法人貸款"},{"start":540.042,"end":568.862,"text":"對我們台灣人法人貸款我們還給他三成韓國是全面禁止一毛也不借他這些都正確的事情所以他們打房的政策比我們更嚴格而且執行上更徹底所以這樣子的情況下韓國政府也是撐住了啊也是撐住了所以我希望這個部分你一定要一定要堅持還有"},{"start":569.775,"end":585.577,"text":"我們國家貸款總額沒有上限對於不動產貸款總額但是韓國他也限制貸款總額他房貸貸款總額他設限六億韓元六億韓元而已"},{"start":587.022,"end":615.492,"text":"如果你一比45來看才1300萬台幣所以他們是做的這麼徹底那這樣子的情況就是為了所有全國普遍大家都能夠有合理的價格舒適的房子來居住這才是正確的所以我希望你能夠挺下去在這一波打房的政策上面因為只有你"},{"start":616.472,"end":629.72,"text":"只有中央银行有办法坚持住你坚持住了其他银行才能守住好不好是谢谢委员的支持谢谢委员的鼓励谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1401,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時15分）謝謝主席。我請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員世堅：總裁，辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝您的鼓勵。"],["王委員世堅：這一年來，您對房市管控的部分，還有在買賣外匯這部分的堅持，我是非常肯定。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員鼓勵還有支持。"],["王委員世堅：我知道這是很辛苦，必須頂住很多壓力，我認為最重要，第一點，關於我們國家的匯率，外匯這一個部分，因為我們國家GDP的62%是出口，所以我們是以出口為導向的國家。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：所以央行要顧及我們國家匯率的穩定，這是應當的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：我也多次講，其實政府應該默許央行有這兩大權力：第一個權力，就是不說實話的權力；第二個，操作外匯的權力。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們不可否認臺灣是小國寡民，比起歐、美、日這些大國而言，我們當然要護住我們的外匯。所以這一點，我是一再堅持一定要這麼做，你看這次臺幣升值的結果，國內有那麼多的行業已經開始無薪假了，他們只是因為匯率，還沒有計算到20%關稅還有疊加上去的，那個都不算，光匯率這一波就已經讓他們幾乎沒辦法存活，像手工機械業、五金類就是這樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以這個部分，我希望央行能夠堅持，當然美國的控制，我覺得這三點你比我更清楚，你是內行、你專業。"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡。"],["王委員世堅：這三點我一再講，我認為貿易順差超過200億，這個沒話講，我們隨便也都會超過；經常順差超過GDP 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的2%又要超過160億美金，因為我們不是一天到晚在買匯，我們也會有賣的時候，你就要帶領央行去調節，有時候買、有時候賣，但是保持它的穩定，這一點是他們永遠拿我們沒辦法的地方。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以很多事情，我們跟最大貿易往來國家，大家心照不宣，我希望你能夠頂住這個壓力，繼續往對於匯率的穩定、操控的部分，還是要堅持下去，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，是！"],["王委員世堅：其次，關於對房市這部分的壓力也滿大的，因為不可否認，現在持反對聲浪背後的鼓噪者很多，會影響到他們的，比方建商、房屋仲介公司、投資戶，這些人當然有他們的權益，可是如果是來炒作的，比方有些是自己體質就不良的建設公司、有些是過分大膽的投資戶，房價這十年來漲幅這麼大，也是因為這些人所導致而占非常大的一個因素，這些人在媒體上面聲量很大，因為他們長年有那麼龐大的廣告量，所以相對就會有他們製造的一些新聞，這會給我們政府壓力，政府的壓力當然就會轉嫁來請央行說，是不是這個部分應該放鬆，那我認為不應該。我還是認為我們對於房市的控管，就是不動產貸款資金絕對不能超過當時存款總額的30%就是三成，我認為這個底線一定要守住。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：當然，現在行政院有放寬說，這30%的設限對新青安的部分不計入，不計入以後，光上個月一個月就240億之多耶，所以我還是認為固然對於新青安的部分不設限，但是要嚴審這些新青安是不是真正的、有需要的新青安，或者是不管建商、仲介、炒作者，他們去找出來的人頭，這部分我認為是不是應該督促各銀行應該要嚴審，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。我們針對房市發布的信用管制措施，委員一直以來都給我們很大的支持，這個真的是……我的意思就是要站得住腳，要站得住腳也要委員來協助我們、支持我們，我們才能站得更穩，這部分我真的非常、非常謝謝委員這樣的作法。"],["王委員世堅：所以總裁你能不能頂住這個壓力？因為現在動不動就會有這個聲浪跑出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：所以要頂住這個壓力，而且要說之以理，就是當行政院內部在討論的時候，你要把這一番道理說出來……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：過去像十幾年前，十六、七年前，美國也發生過那麼大的風暴，已經造成世界級的金融風暴，也是導因於不動產開始的那些次級房貸……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：所以這個底線一定要守住，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我……"],["王委員世堅：你看我們這一次，你強硬的這三年來緊縮的政策，你看，緊縮這三年以來，我們的房屋，我就講我們臺灣的蛋黃區臺北、新北就好，跌幅不到2%你看那麼強硬之下，房屋跌幅也不到2%，等於微跌啦。但是就整個價值來看，相比2020年當時的指數只有97.85，現在即便下跌到這個程度，房價指數還是高達150.38，這五年來等於漲了一半，所以這是不可思議的事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們也可以引國外，韓國也有很好的例子，韓國他們打得比我們更嚴重，他們不但全面緊縮，還訂定房屋貸款總額的上限是6億元，他們定了這個絕對不動；而且他們打擊外國的投資客，針對熱區把貸款的成數下降；還有他們針對超過25億韓元，以1比50來換算，就是5,000萬的豪宅就限制貸款；這還不打緊，針對兩戶以上，如果貸款兩戶以上全面禁止，我們還沒有喔，我們只有把成數下降，我們沒有限制戶數；然後他們的法人貸款，對我們臺灣而言，法人貸款我們還給三成，韓國則是全面禁止，一毛也不借他，這些都是正確的事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["王委員世堅：所以，他們打房的政策比我們更嚴格，而且執行上更澈底。這樣子的情況下，韓國政府也是撐住了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["王委員世堅：所以我希望這個部分，你一定要堅持。還有，我們國家對於不動產的貸款總額沒有上限，但是韓國也限制貸款總額，他的房貸貸款總額設限6億韓元，6億韓元而已欸，如果用1比45來換算，才1,300萬臺幣，所以他們是做得這麼澈底。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：這樣子的情況，就是為了所有全國普遍大家都能夠有合理的價格，舒適的房子來居住，這才是正確的。所以我希望你能夠挺下去，在這一波打房的政策上面，因為只有你、只有中央銀行有辦法堅持住。你堅持住了，其他銀行才能守住，好不好？謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝，謝謝委員的支持，也謝謝委員的鼓勵，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d344d35d8d6a00c3dfcbd78a287304ef9f378985d1c29b3fea3dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:13:25 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謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們再請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":20.128,"end":33.96,"text":"我想請問一下像這一次的這個養豬場所發生的問題那有沒有展開回溯性的調查那這份報告什麼時候可以公佈"},{"start":34.915,"end":64.355,"text":"我想我們從21號發現了以後我們第一時間就是將這個廠所有的移動管制然後全面鋪砂然後開始我們就從周圍的3公里還有它的直接的關聯廠去做調查然後接下來就是這輛車輛本身移動的關聯廠所以我們啟動正式的調查那正式的調查它需要一些時間但是我們每一天在台中前進指揮前進應變所這邊每一天會對外公開說明我們的進度"},{"start":65.355,"end":87.696,"text":"那你還是沒講啊對啊 三公里啊還有未來可能對於全國各縣市都要展開調查嗎是不是對 我們同時就是啟動台中市的疫調然後台中市以外的全國的豬場的第一個就是它的本身的豬隻的健康度的回報跟它的一個關注所以我們是同時啟動"},{"start":89.571,"end":108.913,"text":"比較強度比較強的台東市的應變然後還有其他縣市的那相關的調查什麼時候可以公布所以我剛才說的這個疫調有它的時間我現在沒辦法講說一定多久可以完成但是我們是希望在這個潛伏期的15天之內能夠完成15天 那就是月底"},{"start":109.95,"end":128.485,"text":"15天那5天齁為一個單位我希望說台東市的這個基本的疫調能夠在5天之內能夠完成就是5天之內對就是台東市這個部分是25號嗎大概我是昨天他們去前進指揮所我是希望說5天之內能夠完成因為他們不會有假日的是昨天的5天對等於下禮拜一囉"},{"start":129.085,"end":144.907,"text":"大概下禮拜一禮拜二這樣子但是我們每天都會公告我們的進度因為疫調還有可能又追到其他的源頭所以你剛才說的有可能就是其他委員在質詢的你覺得有可能它的原因不是來自於廚餘是不是"},{"start":145.507,"end":165.595,"text":"我说非洲猪瘟的传播本身当然厨余是一个原因但是人员的如果说你进到国外的这些养猪场然后可能带过来的然后也有可能你其他的食物来源不是经过厨余的来源带回来因为如果那个场有其他的这些外籍的"},{"start":166.926,"end":194.93,"text":"我不是就是外籍去国外买东西好了我们不一定是外籍就是国外买东西回来那也可能不小心吃一吃以后就丢到自己家里去都有可能啦所以这些可能在疫调没有完成之前我们不能断定说它一定是是人员接触一定是厨医或一定是家里买东西自己乱丢造成的我们要怎么判断但是那个病毒的分离报告是不是已经出来了大概分离报告大概两个礼拜还没出来吗还没有出来"},{"start":196.837,"end":219.08,"text":"我怎麼那為什麼我有定序我們這樣子我們先用核酸病毒的核酸檢測是陽性然後接下來我們會做這個核酸的一個定序那定序完了以後其實應該是確認的但是因為我們台灣是首例那是首例的國家的話他還要做一個動作就是將這個病毒做分類"},{"start":220.621,"end":241.743,"text":"分離跟分類那才能夠正式的通報所以這個部分就是在分離需要兩個禮拜所以我們是用最強的用把它已經是其實就是非洲豬瘟只是在通報上還需要一些那病毒株呢是從哪裡來的這個還要再做分離以後還要定序現在定序還在繼續定序是越南嗎"},{"start":243.288,"end":272.467,"text":"你剛才有講可能是中國 可能是東南亞然後一部分之間所以我們現在完全定序以後才能做完整的比對定序還在執行嗎所以定序也要兩個禮拜不確定是來自於東南亞還是因為非洲株的病毒高達180K所以它需要很多時間去完成定序那我目前已經知道的是大部分的序列都來自第二基因型那第二基因型就是目前廣為世界流傳的病毒株的基因型不一定來自越南"},{"start":273.018,"end":289.668,"text":"不一定是來自於越南是不是好那所以定序要兩個禮拜以後才會出來好那就是下下禮拜囉下禮拜一是疫調然後下下禮拜是病毒株的定序是不是"},{"start":290.714,"end":318.037,"text":"大概是這樣子下禮拜一是大概台中市的部分我們希望有個初步的結果大概是這樣因為疫調有它的有它的嚴謹度跟詳細度啦好那我還要再一次請教喔就是關於廚餘養豬的問題喔那廚餘養豬是為什麼當初2018年有這樣子爭議的時候不馬上的禁止是因為"},{"start":319.795,"end":337.005,"text":"沒有辦法處理廚餘的問題嗎是不是我想當初當初做這樣的一個政策最後政策的一個決定一定有他當時的一個考量是不是沒有辦法處理廚餘我想可能是一個原因就是處理的量推到我們現在你有沒有辦法處理廚餘我想"},{"start":339.386,"end":346.41,"text":"從108年到現在其實用廚餘養豬的戶數已經降到430幾435場本來1000多場變成降到435場這就是當初108年的時候雖然說我們沒有禁止但是我們積極輔導他轉型那同時我們去強化那個廚餘的徵主的條件跟他的嚴苛的一個監管那這樣子的話只要確認這個這個是"},{"start":366.075,"end":393.278,"text":"那農業部有沒有去跟環保有沒有跟環境部了解到底廚餘有沒有辦法處理我們全台灣所有的廚餘有沒有辦法處理它的廚餘本身它有不同的像它可以做一般的飼料然後進到廚餘養生處但是現在目前大概65%大概是進到廚餘的系統然後還有一些生殖的部分所以剛才因為委員提到我們如果把廚餘先做成飼料再餵豬也是一個很好的方法"},{"start":393.838,"end":406.576,"text":"所以我想除以養豬絕對不是就是罪魁禍首但是我們要讓除以養豬能夠安心的養豬牠的飼料是安全的這是我們的目標"},{"start":408.103,"end":435.029,"text":"好 我希望我們能夠緊述的調查做疫調的相關調查讓所有的養豬場都能夠安心到底真正的來源是什麼那以及病毒株的來源是從何而來那對於未來就是說相關的邊境的檢查也好那才有辦法進行確實我想要順便問一下我們關務署"},{"start":439.737,"end":464.865,"text":"請問一下我想請問一下現在我們的出口今年的出口的數字是怎麼樣是說我們到目前為止整年的一個出口據我了解應該都還維持還不錯的一個成績是不是有33%的我看有33%的成長是不是我看你們關務署的數字"},{"start":466.729,"end":483.142,"text":"抱歉委員我沒有掌握這個數字是不是容我查證之後再跟您回報那明年咧我想要知道明年的數字明年出口的一個數字會不會下降抱歉委員這可能我還是要請教專家之後我再來跟您回覆你們都沒有做預估喔"},{"start":484.349,"end":500.71,"text":"你們都沒做預估喔?關務署這邊我是沒有對啊你們不都會做預估嗎?你們財政部不都會做預估嗎?財政部那邊會做預估你們都會做預估啊主總那邊會做預估啦包括經濟成長率等等好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我想要請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：陳部長好。我想請問一下，像這一次養豬場所發生的問題，有沒有展開回溯性的調查？這份報告什麼時候可以公布？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從21號發現了以後，第一時間就是將這個場所有的移動管制、全面撲殺，然後我們開始從周圍的3公里，還有它直接的關聯場去調查，接下來就是這輛車輛本身移動的關聯場。所以我們啟動正式的調查，正式的調查需要一些時間，但是我們每一天會在臺中前進應變所對外公開說明我們的進度。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你還是沒講啊！對啊，3公里啊！還有未來可能對全國各縣市都要展開調查，是不是？要不要？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們同時啟動臺中市的疫調，然後臺中市以外全國的豬場，第一個，豬場本身豬隻健康度的回報跟關注，所以我們是同時啟動強度比較強的臺中市的應變，然後還有其他縣市的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：相關的調查什麼時候可以公布？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說疫調有它的時間，我現在沒辦法講多久一定可以完成，但是我們是希望在這個潛伏期的15天之內能夠完成。"],["謝委員衣鳯：15天？那就是月底？"],["陳部長駿季：15天，以5天為一個單位，我希望臺中市基本的疫調能夠在5天之內完成。"],["謝委員衣鳯：5天之內，所以是25號？"],["陳部長駿季：對，臺中市的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是25號嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：大概……昨天他們去前進指揮所，我是希望5天之內能夠完成，因為他們不會有假日的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是昨天開始算5天？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：等於下禮拜一囉？"],["陳部長駿季：大概下禮拜一、禮拜二，但是我們每天會公告我們的進度，因為疫調還有可能又追到其他的源頭。"],["謝委員衣鳯：針對剛才其他委員的質詢，你說有可能它的原因不是來自於廚餘，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我說非洲豬瘟的傳播，當然廚餘本身是一個原因，但是人員的……如果你進到國外的養豬場，有可能會帶過來，也有可能其他的食物來源，不是經過廚餘的來源帶回來，因為如果那個場有其他的外籍……"],["謝委員衣鳯：技術人員？"],["陳部長駿季：就像我們去國外買東西好了，不一定是外籍，就是去國外買東西回來，也可能不小心吃一吃以後就丟到自己家裡去，都有可能啦，這些在疫調沒有完成之前，我們都不能斷定一定是人員接觸、一定是廚餘或一定是家裡買東西自己亂丟造成的，我們沒辦法判斷。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是病毒的分離報告是不是已經出來了？"],["陳部長駿季：分離報告大概要兩個禮拜。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還沒出來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還沒有出來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那為什麼有人……"],["陳部長駿季：定序。我們是先用病毒的核酸檢測是陽性，接下來我們會做核酸的定序，定序完了以後其實應該是確認了，但是因為臺灣是首例，首例在國家的話還要做一個動作，就是將這個病毒做分離跟分類才能夠正式通報，這個部分分離需要兩個禮拜。我們是用最強的……它其實已經就是非洲豬瘟，只是在通報上還需要一些……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那病毒株是從哪裡來的？"],["陳部長駿季：這個還要再做分離以後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是從越南？"],["陳部長駿季：還要定序，現在還在繼續定序。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是越南嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：不一定。"],["陳部長駿季：剛才有講可能是中國，可能是東南亞，然後一部分是越南，我們現在要完全定序以後才能做完整的比對。定序還在執行嘛！"],["鄧所長明中：對，還在執行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以定序也要兩個禮拜？不確定是來自於東南亞還是……"],["鄧所長明中：因為非洲豬瘟的病毒高達180k base pair，所以需要很多時間去完成定序，我們目前已經知道大部分序列都來自第二基因型，第二基因型就是目前廣為世界流傳的病毒株基因型，不一定來自越南。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不一定是來自於越南，是不是？"],["鄧所長明中：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，所以定序要兩個禮拜以後才會出來？"],["鄧所長明中：大概。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那就是下下禮拜囉？"],["陳部長駿季：差不多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：下禮拜一是疫調，然後下下禮拜是病毒株的定序，大概是這樣子的進度，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：下禮拜一臺中市的部分，我們希望有個初步的結果，大概是這樣，因為疫調有它的嚴謹度跟詳細度啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我還要再一次請教關於廚餘養豬的問題，為什麼當初2018年有廚餘養豬爭議的時候，不馬上禁止？是因為沒有辦法處理廚餘的問題，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我想當初做這樣的一個政策，以及最後政策的決定，一定有當時的考量……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是沒有辦法處理廚餘？"],["陳部長駿季：可能是一個原因，就是處理的量……"],["謝委員衣鳯：推到現在，你有沒有辦法處理廚餘？"],["陳部長駿季：從108年到現在，其實用廚餘養豬的戶數已經降到435場，本來一千多場變成降到435場，雖然我們當初108年的時候沒有禁止，但是我們積極輔導他轉型，同時我們去強化廚餘蒸煮的條件跟嚴苛的監管，這樣子的話，只要確認……"],["謝委員衣鳯：農業部有沒有去跟環保……"],["陳部長駿季：我們隨時在跟他們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有跟環境部了解？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：到底廚餘有沒有辦法處理？我們全臺灣所有的廚餘有沒有辦法處理？"],["陳部長駿季：廚餘本身有不同的用途，像可以做一般的飼料，然後進到養豬場，但是目前大概65%是進到廚餘的系統，然後還有一些生質的部分，所以剛才也有委員提到，我們如果把廚餘先做成飼料再餵豬，也是一個很好的方法，所以我想廚餘養豬絕對不是罪魁禍首，但是我們要讓大家對廚餘養豬能夠安心，讓這個養豬的飼料是安全的，這是我們的目標。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望你們能夠儘速去做疫調的相關調查，讓所有的養豬場都能夠安心，並且知道到底真正的來源是什麼，以及病毒株的來源是從何而來，這樣對於未來相關的邊境檢查才有辦法確實進行。","接下來我想要請問關務署。"],["主席：請署長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問署長，今年我們的出口的數字是怎麼樣？"],["彭署長英偉：委員是說我們到目前為止整年的出口？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對、對、對。"],["彭署長英偉：據我了解應該都還維持不錯的成績。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是有33%？我看到有33%的成長，是不是？我看你們關務署的數字。"],["彭署長英偉：抱歉，委員，我沒有掌握這個數字，是不是容我查證之後再跟您回報？"],["謝委員衣鳯：那明年呢？我想要知道明年的數字。"],["彭署長英偉：明年出口的數字？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，會不會下降？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這個可能還是要請教專家之後再來向您回復。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們都沒有預估？你們都沒預估喔！"],["彭署長英偉：關務署這邊，我是沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，你們不是都會預估嗎？你們財政部不是都會預估嗎？是不是？"],["彭署長英偉：是，財政部會預估，主要是主總會預估，包括經濟成長率等等。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在休息3分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時27分）"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在繼續開會。","請陳超明委員、陳超明委員，陳超明委員不在現場。","請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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我請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":18.927,"end":42.95,"text":"黃委員早是 總裁早我想今天大家都還是很關心所謂台幣改版的事但我想先問一個事內政部的警政署165的打詐儀表板它其實有統計打詐的狀況還是很嚴重今年的財損已經達到700多億投資詐騙是第一名那打詐儀表板裡面非常多很有趣的事情就是"},{"start":44.471,"end":70.849,"text":"诈骗集团滥用民众对于中央银行的信任所以假装是央行的外汇专员而且具名蔡炯明进行金融诈骗到上个礼拜还是发生所以这个应该是外汇局长是吗是但是你们在112年11月有发布澄清新闻稿上个礼拜还有这样的案子这个外汇局长要不要出来在现场"},{"start":72.051,"end":83.365,"text":"馬上立刻再說明一次因為央行從來沒有說過我們因為在打仗的方面好像沒有看到央行什麼角色蔡局長你要不要澄清一下"},{"start":86.17,"end":95.481,"text":"委員好事實上我們央行都有對外有做這樣的一個澄清這個在去年發生的時候就有澄清過上個禮拜還有你上個禮拜又詐騙人你知道嗎我們持續都還是會再做這樣的一個澄清因為大概都會打電話到我們這邊來"},{"start":103.491,"end":128.722,"text":"那我们这边都我们相关的同仁都会跟他们做一些解释事实上我们外汇很多人大部分都说那个资金没办法进来是在我们央行这边的管理啊等等的那事实上我们都会跟他解释被央行控管了所以钱没办法动啊什么什么的都有解释那去年也都有发过新闻卡做一些相关的资金国外汇款没有办法汇款是因为外汇局无法放行然后就骗他嘛"},{"start":129.423,"end":145.018,"text":"通常是來自這個地方總裁表示大家很相信中央銀行所以被冒名不是你們的錯央行要不斷的澄清是 好第二個是現在打仗從打仗的指揮中心看起來"},{"start":145.839,"end":171.338,"text":"央行好像沒有在這個相關的系統裡面有什麼角色對不對對基本上是沒有你們都會協助但是大家相信中央銀行所以你在打詐的上面可能還要再加把勁就是說在我央行的不管是官網或相關的打詐的上面我覺得央行要強調我們不會跟你控制你的外匯有沒有匯出去都跟央行沒有關係那都是銀行端的事好不好我想這個"},{"start":174.641,"end":198.237,"text":"總裁幫局長澄清比較有用我們外局來做這件事情就是我們央行沒有人在詐騙尤其姓蔡的更沒有詐騙局長請回我想接下來就是今天大家最關心的就是看到您的報告說要改版新台幣其實我在一上任的時候我就已經質詢過您我還記得很清楚"},{"start":198.717,"end":223.506,"text":"那時候是很多的攤販來陳情說五百元的假鈔很多五十塊的假幣很多當時我質詢的時候還問過您說有沒有改版計畫有沒有評估過改版成本您當時回覆跟我說新台幣使用狀況良好幣性良好 偽鈔率很低所以沒有改版計畫一年後的現在突然間有改版計畫這是為什麼"},{"start":225.606,"end":251.913,"text":"因為一年前你回答我的我問的時候你非常斬釘截鐵我們的在性良好 避性良好 使用狀況良好 偽差率超低那現在有改變嗎我跟委員報告就剛剛也有一個委員就說我在前一年的時候說我們改版我問的時候就被你打回槍所以我就說也許我也忘了"},{"start":253.033,"end":268.372,"text":"第二个可能就是说我没有很能够掌握我们自己的状况事实上最近我们在要讲改版的时候所以没有我现在要确定没有伪超率增加没有必信"},{"start":269.013,"end":284.516,"text":"不佳的狀況對吧就說偽鈔率應該也算是還是不是很高偽鈔還是很低畢竟很良好第二個我們現在在大量的推展電子支付所以我們現在改版的重要性跟急迫性到底是什麼"},{"start":285.237,"end":292.146,"text":"是 不過就是說你有偽鈔的急迫性還是你有病情不好的急迫性我們這邊列出來很多國家它也是改版它的那個微鈔率也是很低的所以微鈔率低也不是說你改版的必要條件"},{"start":302.92,"end":315.604,"text":"所以那以后就不要回我那种公文啦好不好重点是刚刚今天听总裁讲话有趣就是我想说那五百元要改版到底是因为梅花路还是因为赖总统"},{"start":318.507,"end":324.55,"text":"不 我們改版就是說據我們有一個兩場管理委員會事實上我同仁告訴我我們106年就是那個時候就開始在規劃了所以我說剛剛那個委員在講這個我要做這樣的回答我現在回收我當時的回答你回收你剛剛的話你回收你之前寫的公文因為畢竟我那時候的回答是不對的"},{"start":348.142,"end":359.447,"text":"現在我要講另外一個就是兩千塊兩百塊的確是使用率流通率很低所以你改版還要繼續發行嗎所以我們說預計這五張但是我們有要去討論一下因為它的使用率真的很低我們會把這個建議我們會類作參考"},{"start":366.95,"end":382.167,"text":"現在的問題是在於現在各國日本其實也一千塊五千塊一萬塊已經做改版二十年之後做貨幣更新它最大的問題其實不是這個因為日本有非常多的是所謂的點餐機"},{"start":383.748,"end":403.679,"text":"點鈔機ATM還有所謂的停車費其實你知道改版最需要的是做這方面的民間的配合跟跟進你就是說這些不是只有只有你央行一個人掌了算因為大家都要全世界都要跟著你變所以這件事情在日本"},{"start":404.479,"end":426.171,"text":"兩年前就已經做好規劃產業就要開始跟著走包括尺寸包括相關的他們的這些設備在你發行之後他要可以立刻跟得上這才是接下來去改版最隱形的成本所以總裁你大概預計花多少錢總共"},{"start":435.378,"end":448.548,"text":"你去年回答我大概要500億所以你覺得太貴了所以你不要改沒有你500億那個是沒有啦那500億是主要的就是說它大部分的成本是因為是銅板的改版銅板的成本比較高"},{"start":449.028,"end":450.37,"text":"現在我們銅板因為它是小零頭而且慢慢會退出所以我們這一次是不會有所以不用到五百億那要幾百億對 不會五百億就只有那個鈔券而已剛剛委員在講的這個"},{"start":465.166,"end":469.908,"text":"這個就是說調整的就是販賣機什麼的這些我們也有初步的估算好像是16億大概16億分幾年這個是社會成本對社會成本16億那你自己的央行的成本呢"},{"start":487.034,"end":496.36,"text":"就是不用啊不用我們央行的成本就是我們每一張會增加1.5啊1.5所以你要看你發多少好這樣會影響到你央行的預算還有繳庫的金額嗎應該不會啦不會就是你不會少錢繳庫不會減少應該是不會啦就是你可以控制到控制到變成是你基本的成本而已是啦應該是啦"},{"start":513.81,"end":531.061,"text":"我覺得這次兩千塊兩百塊我覺得你要慎重考慮五百塊要怎麼換大家都可以表示意見但是我覺得以後講話就不要這麼斬釘截鐵而且大家在反映說其實五十塊的硬幣很多假幣這種狀況還是要注意跟檢討我覺得這個還是很重要"},{"start":536.664,"end":555.207,"text":"改版是大事而且每一個民眾都會受影響第二個他跟我們推動電子支付的政策其實有一點小衝突啊我們到底是要往電子支付大幅提升還是還要繼續用紙鈔這個可能是一個社會的選擇"},{"start":556.528,"end":567.272,"text":"所以我們現在出國大概基本上像我去一趟美國 去一趟日本我大概沒有用過紙鈔所以總裁你覺得接下去的紙鈔使用量還會增加嗎我想就是說現今它還是可預見的將來它還是電子支付還是沒辦法替代它的沒辦法替代但是不需要到你原來預估的那個量所以我就說嘛所以也就是說它的發行量可能會越來越少嘛"},{"start":586.34,"end":613.422,"text":"那我們改版的那個成本就會越來越少而且政府也是大力推動電子支付而且現在連LiPay都上網連民眾之間的轉帳用LiPay不用手續費它其實使用率非常的高連我們朋友吃飯大家都用LiPay互相傳來傳去我的意思是說你在發行量的時候可能要有個具體的評估而且要讓立法院這邊也都能夠有參與的意見的機會因為我們每天都在接受不管是一般的攤販也好"},{"start":614.423,"end":637.449,"text":"相關的民間他們其實對於這些都非常有意見接下來最後一個小問題希望說總裁我們有關新清安的部分目前現在房地產市場的變化你有辦法直接告訴我現在你的控制方式你接下來會有什麼樣的新的做法"},{"start":638.81,"end":652.199,"text":"你是說房市房市我們現在還是滾動式的檢討所以沒有因為你的這一波大家在這邊詭教說爛尾樓建商倒閉狀況嚴重嗎我們密切注意市場的發展滾動式的檢討所以這些有發生嗎就是爛尾樓建商倒閉爛尾樓我們也有密切去注意它事實上"},{"start":661.445,"end":672.015,"text":"所以他目前還沒有影響太大也沒有很嚴重的影響銀行的債信對吧所以目前為止不會做任何的調整在你的第七波信用管制應該我們繼續滾動式檢討繼續控制好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1271,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我請楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁早。我想今天大家都還是很關心所謂臺幣改版的事，但我想先問一個事，內政部警政署165的打詐儀錶板其實有統計，打詐的狀況還是很嚴重，今年的財損已經達到七百多億，投資詐騙是第一名，打詐儀錶板裡面非常多很有趣的事情，詐騙集團濫用民眾對於中央銀行的信任，假裝是央行的外匯專員，而且……"],["楊總裁金龍：是嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：而且還具名蔡炯民進行金融詐騙，到上個禮拜還是發生，這應該是外匯局局長，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但你們在112年11月有發布澄清新聞稿，上個禮拜還有這樣的案子，外匯局局長要不要出來在現場、馬上、立刻再說明一次？"],["楊總裁金龍：好啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：央行從來沒有說過……因為在打詐方面，好像沒有看到央行什麼角色，蔡局長你要不要澄清一下？"],["蔡局長炯民：委員好。事實上我們央行都有對外澄清，去年發生的時候就有澄清過，我想我們還會……"],["黃委員珊珊：去年？上個禮拜還有！你上個禮拜又詐騙人，你知道嗎？"],["蔡局長炯民：我們持續都還是會再做這樣的澄清，因為都會打電話到我們這邊來，我們這邊的相關同仁都會跟他們做一些解釋，事實上外匯部分，很多人都說資金沒辦法進來是在我們央行這邊管理的，事實上我們都會跟他們解釋……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是被央行控管了，所以錢沒辦法動，什麼、什麼的……"],["蔡局長炯民：是，我們都有解釋，去年也都有發過新聞稿做一些相關的澄清。"],["黃委員珊珊：國外沒有辦法匯款是因為外匯局無法放行，然後就騙他嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長炯民：通常是來自這個地方，我們都會……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，表示大家很相信中央銀行，所以被冒名不是你們的錯，央行要不斷的澄清。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，現在從打詐指揮中心看起來，央行好像沒有在這個相關系統裡面有什麼角色，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，基本上是沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們是協助，但大家相信中央銀行，所以你在打詐上面可能還要再加把勁，央行不管是官網或相關的打詐的上面，我覺得央行要強調你們不會控制他們的外匯，有沒有匯出去都跟央行沒有關係，那都是銀行端的事，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想由總裁來幫局長澄清比較有用。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們外匯局來做這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：央行沒有人在詐騙，尤其姓蔡的更沒有詐騙。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，局長請回。","接下來就是今天大家最關心的，看到您的報告說要改版新臺幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實我在一上任的時候就已經質詢過您，我還記得很清楚，那時候有很多攤販來陳情，500元的假鈔很多，50塊的假幣很多，當時我質詢的時候還問過您有沒有改版計畫、有沒有評估過改版成本？您當時回復我說：新臺幣使用狀況良好、幣性良好，偽鈔率很低，所以沒有改版計畫。一年後的現在突然有改版計畫，這是為什麼呢？一年前我問的時候，你回答得非常斬釘截鐵，我們的債信良好、幣性良好、使用狀況良好，偽鈔率超低，那現在有改變嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，剛剛也有一個委員說我在前一年的時候說我們改版……"],["黃委員珊珊：有啊，我問的時候就被你打槍啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以我就說，也許我也忘了啦！第二個，可能是我沒有很能夠掌握我們自己的狀況，事實上最近我們講改版的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有……我現在要確定，沒有偽鈔率增加、沒有幣性不佳的狀況，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：偽鈔率應該也算不是很高……"],["黃委員珊珊：偽鈔還是很低嘛！幣性也很良好嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，我們現在在大量推展電子支付嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們現在改版的重要性跟急迫性到底是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你有偽鈔的急迫性，還是有幣性不好的急迫性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這邊列出來很多國家也是改版，他們的偽鈔率也是很低，所以偽鈔率低不是改版的必要條件。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那以後就不要回我那種公文，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是，剛剛聽到總裁講話很有趣，我想500元要改版到底是因為梅花鹿還是因為賴總統？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我們改版就是……我們有一個兩廠管理委員會，事實上我們同仁告訴我，我們從106年就開始在規劃了……"],["黃委員珊珊：在規劃了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，在規劃了。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛委員在講這個，我做這樣的回答，我現在回收我當時的回答……"],["黃委員珊珊：你回收你剛剛的話？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：你回收你之前寫的公文？"],["楊總裁金龍：畢竟……"],["黃委員珊珊：很好。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我那時候的回答是不對的。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在我要講另外一個，2,000塊、200塊使用率、流通率的確很低啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你改版還要繼續發行嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們預計是五張，但我們有諮詢委員會……"],["黃委員珊珊：要去討論一下，因為它的使用率真的很低。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會把這個建議列作參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在的問題是在於各國……日本其實1,000塊、5,000塊、1萬塊也已經改版，20年之後做貨幣更新。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：它最大的問題其實不是這個，因為日本有非常多所謂的點餐機、點鈔機、ATM還有停車費，其實你要改版最需要的是這方面的民間要配合跟更新。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！沒有錯，委員是滿了解的。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是這些不是只有你央行一個人講了算，因為全世界都要跟著你變。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這件事情在日本兩年前就已經做好規劃，產業就要開始跟著走，包括尺寸、他們相關的設備，在發行之後大家要可以立刻跟著上，這才是接下來要去改版最隱形的成本。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員講的沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以總裁，你大概預計總共花多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的……"],["黃委員珊珊：你去年回答我大概要500億，所以你覺得太貴了不要改。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦！那500億主要是……大部分的成本是因為銅板的改版，銅板成本比較高。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：現在因為我們的銅板是小零頭，而且慢慢會退出，所以我們這次是不會有……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不用到500億，那要幾百億？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不會500億，就只有鈔券而已。剛剛委員在講的調整部分，就是販賣機等等的……"],["黃委員珊珊：你還要跟著民間一起協調。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這些我們也有初步的估算，好像是16億。"],["黃委員珊珊：total 16億，分幾年編？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是社會成本。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，社會成本16億，你自己央行的成本呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：就是不用。"],["黃委員珊珊：不用？央行沒成本？"],["楊總裁金龍：央行的成本就是我們每一張會增加1.5。"],["黃委員珊珊：1.5，所以你要看你發多少。"],["楊總裁金龍：每一張的1.5。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，這樣會影響到央行的預算，還有繳庫的金額嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該不會。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會，就是你不會少錢，繳庫不會減少？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是不會，對中央銀行來講的話。"],["黃委員珊珊：就是你可以控制到變成是基本的成本而已？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，應該是啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我覺得這次2,000塊、200塊，你要慎重考慮。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：500塊要怎麼換，大家都可以表示意見，但是我覺得以後講話就不要這麼斬釘截鐵。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：而且大家在反映其實50塊的硬幣很多是假幣，這種狀況還是要注意跟檢討。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得這個還是很重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：改版是大事，而且每一個民眾都會受影響。第二個，它跟我們推動電子支付的政策，其實有一點小衝突，我們到底是要往電子支付大幅提升？還要繼續用紙鈔？這可能是社會的選擇，所以我們現在出國大概基本上，像我去一趟美國、去一趟日本，我大概沒有用過紙鈔，所以總裁，你覺得接下來的紙鈔使用量還會增加嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想現今還是可預見的將來……"],["黃委員珊珊：有必要，但是可能不需要發行那麼多量。"],["楊總裁金龍：電子支付還是沒辦法替代它的啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：沒辦法替代，但是不需要到你原來預估的那個量。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說它的發行量可能會越來越少，我們改版的成本也就會越來越少。"],["黃委員珊珊：政府也是大力推動電子支付，而且現在連LINE Pay都上網，連民眾之間的轉帳用LINE Pay不用手續費，它其實使用率非常的高，因為朋友吃飯大家都用LINE Pay互相傳來傳去，我的意思是你在發行量的時候，可能要有一個具體的評估。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且要讓立法院也都能夠有參與意見的機會，因為我們每天都在接受……不管是一般的攤販也好，相關的民間其實對於這些都非常有意見，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好！"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來最後一個小問題。總裁，有關新青安的部分，目前現在房地產市場的變化，你有辦法直接告訴我現在你的控制方式，接下來會有什麼樣的新作法？"],["楊總裁金龍：你是說新青安？"],["黃委員珊珊：房市。"],["楊總裁金龍：房市，我們現在還是滾動式檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有因為這一波，大家在那邊鬼叫說爛尾樓、建商倒閉啊！狀況嚴重嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會密切注意市場發展、滾動式檢討，就是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以這些有發生嗎？就是爛尾樓、建商倒閉。"],["楊總裁金龍：爛尾樓，我們也有密切去注意，事實上那是個案。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它目前還沒有影響太大，也沒有很嚴重影響到銀行的債信，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，應該是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以目前為止不會做任何的調整？在你的第7波信用管制。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們應該繼續滾動式檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：繼續控制，好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d33fc2e9640b0f5ce58c2d94e6d34c5cc9378985d1c29b3fea43b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:58:09 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有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":10.695,"end":39.662,"text":"是 省委部長好因為我們今天清晨我跟定語委員才剛回來從台美的這一個國防工業會議裡面當然有很多我覺得是滿重要的事情但是因為這個是很多跟預算比較有關係等於這個省總預算的時候我們再多來討論我再問幾個比較偏向時事的問題第一個當然就是還是我們這個灰色地帶的一個侵擾我最少想問空域跟海域的"},{"start":40.722,"end":65.132,"text":"這個空域的有兩點我想問一下第一個當然就是在六月跟八月的時候都各有一次都是這個醫療專機這個醫療專機受到影響之後這個其實確實已經造成一個很大的困擾但我也比較好奇的一件事情就是第二個我想問的就除了我們的一般的因應措施之外就是說其實在這個海外應該看起來像是境外的一個報導"},{"start":66.312,"end":92.419,"text":"有特別呢去放了一些假消息說呢這一個醫療專機呢其實是專門呢要去蒐集什麼情報等等之類的這樣的一個假消息那目前來講像類似像對這樣的一個應對我是有看到這一個應該是安捷航空他自己有發聲明那國防部目前來講對第一個就是說對於這種灰色地帶的應對目前的這個處置還有像這個對方在後續呢又再放假消息的處置是大概是什麼"},{"start":93.554,"end":110.676,"text":"我想那相關的那個事件的情況是不是先由秦市市長先做一個說明委員好我是秦市市長我們掌握到了當天的確有這個事情發生那這架飛機它是在民航的管制底下因為是安捷航空"},{"start":111.297,"end":137.707,"text":"他原本就是要到金門地區去做這樣子的訓練前後的確有發生過這個事情不過這架飛機他是按照民用的飛航規則在民航的管制底下進行飛行所以我們也不認為說這樣子的在民用的飛機遭受到中共的軍機採取這樣子的舉措是適當的跟委員做簡單的報告"},{"start":138.608,"end":140.715,"text":"那我們有相對的這個"},{"start":142.834,"end":169.231,"text":"飛機有飛上去做一個映出因為這個事情就是說這讓我回想到這個去年那個金門的也是這個禁限制水域的這個事件那當時對方其實也是用了虛假的消息去定義說當時的這個金門水域所發生的事情所以藉此的去擴張他的法律的權利這一次雖然他們沒有做一樣的事情但前置作業其實是非常類似的所以我覺得可能今後對於類似這樣的一個事情的一個處於我覺得應該是特別重要"},{"start":169.731,"end":188.651,"text":"但第二件事情就跟海域有關其實跟這件事情很類似就是說在這個黃岩島這也是應該就是上個禮拜的事情而已那這個黃岩島呢現在可以看到有這個兩艘中國海軍軍艦四艘海警船以及數艘這個民兵那前面這個陳永康委員也有提到一直到今天為止其實都還有類似的一個活動"},{"start":189.432,"end":213.711,"text":"那現在他就是有這種三位一體這樣的一個運用那我有看到因為在這次夜報裡面有特別提到一件事情就是1月他有去修這個國軍經常戰備時期突發狀況的一個處置規定是否能夠先稍微說明一下類似這樣一個處置規定不用詳細的內容因為我看到夜報裡面有講到這一個所謂的高中低風險的這一個分野遇到不同的風險的狀況應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":215.512,"end":236.801,"text":"但是就是說以這樣的一個狀況來講會不會陷入到像不管是我去年講的那個事情還有像剛剛安潔航空所遇到的事情就是當對方用虛假的消息去劃定說這是一個什麼事件的時候我們有沒有把這一種對方定義成什麼事件藉此來擴張法律權利的這一件事情放到相關的這一個處置規定"},{"start":240.079,"end":262.554,"text":"報告委員我是座議事次長跟委員報告剛剛委員所提的這個突發狀況處置規定我們就是因應今年這兩年開始中共灰色地帶應處的這種狀況跟他的情勢越來越多那所以我們就律定了一個叫做授權舉證跟在突發狀況處置規定裡面去律定他交戰規則等相關的規範會區分"},{"start":266.395,"end":286.979,"text":"範圍跟類型那授權於我們戰備部隊管制的作戰單位比如說劍指部跟空作部可以依據他所面臨的狀況去採取及時的處置作為那當然因為中共不斷的在做一些模擬跟應用他的能力上的增長去做一些轉變所以我們每年都會針對不同的狀況去做修班像我們現在也開始在彙整各單位所面臨到一些在我們目前看到比較"},{"start":293.541,"end":319.52,"text":"異常的一些動態會持續納進來做修班這部分跟委員做說明對 因為這個就是像你剛剛提到就是說譬如說它的範圍是什麼樣子它的類型是什麼樣子所以我們相關應該要有什麼處置對不對我們在去年的那一個就是金門水域發生這一個事件的時候在當時那時候部長還沒有上任那時候還是邱部長那時候我就有提到說是不是應該要有這樣的一個處置規定那離現在應該也有超過一年半的時間"},{"start":321.001,"end":344.621,"text":"當時其實也有到這個辦公室有先討論了一番因為我知道這個處事規定的詳細狀況不適合在這個公開場合講但那個時候我除了提醒要一定的規範之外因為這樣才有一個SOP我們才知道要怎麼去應處另外一個最重要的事情就是因為對方都會去利用這樣的一個情勢去放消息比如說他今天在做這個事情的時候他知道我們要怎麼去反應"},{"start":346.263,"end":362.123,"text":"結果他在不管是在他們的媒體上面或者說透過台灣去放一些消息說其實是台灣這邊在做一個挑釁什麼等等之類的就是他會有一個政治的因素放在跟這一個情勢的發生是把它扣在一起的"},{"start":362.943,"end":387.002,"text":"這個時候呢像去年的時候他還甚至放了這個假的像海委會的這個假的這個對話記錄啊什麼等等之類的這一些事情它是屬於政治它不是在一開始講的這種範圍還有這個類型裡面但它卻是會遇到的所以遇到的時候呢比如說像我們的比如說新站的單位比如說我們的政案單位應該要怎麼運出是不是應該也要把這個納入裡面這樣我們在這個整體的規範的時候才可能會比較順暢"},{"start":392.168,"end":408.502,"text":"我想第一個當然就國安部的部分我們每天會有一些暫停請的一個匯報會來就這個部分做一個應酬另外剛剛委員提到其實我覺得是有兩個面向一個是認知戰一個是法律戰"},{"start":409.403,"end":428.508,"text":"在認知戰的這個部分的話因為這個相關的部分可能有一些是涉及到跟海巡也涉及到甚至其他的部會所以在認知戰的這個回應上面不只是介紹國安部所以國安會會就這個部分來主導會做一些關於反認知作戰的一些"},{"start":429.708,"end":456.743,"text":"另外法律戰的部分也就是說公運這種灰色地帶的這個情擾它事實上是要形成一種台海內海化的這種一種長臂管轄的一種概念來不管是之前之中電軍這種公佈或者是這種海域有關這個海警船或者民兵漁船這種然後軍艦圍繞台灣這種的都涉及到這個法律戰所以這些法律戰的這些相關作為我們要來讓這個"},{"start":458.526,"end":478.187,"text":"尤其是國際社會也來清楚的話就法律戰的部分現在正在研擬相關的這些我們引用相關的這些國際法的規範我會來進行一些法律戰的反制作為謝謝部長因為部長也是法律專家因為這個我在這個國際的論壇上面在討論這些事情的時候我比較擔心的事情就是"},{"start":478.647,"end":507.095,"text":"今天我們講到跟認知有關的或者說譬如說輿論有關的有可能他國安會相關的國安局他們都可能會有相關的一些跨部會的討論但一旦牽扯到跟法律利率相關的不可能是法務部出來的他有可能會請到跟外交部有關但其實並沒有一個主責的部門去弄法律戰所以各國現在在遇到中國尤其像譬如說中文跟菲律賓他們遇到這種法律戰的時候畢竟第一線遇到的就還是要嘛就是海巡要嘛就是國軍"},{"start":508.115,"end":531.712,"text":"那這個時候到底是誰才是應該主管這件事情誰應該去劃定這一個範圍其實在每一個國家都會出現一個有點不明確就不知道到底應該是誰來做所以這件事情如果後續能夠有更多的討論我覺得應該是樂見其成我們跟國安會已經有一個一段時間的討論這個部分國安會會結合相關的部委包括外交部也好包括"},{"start":532.813,"end":548.208,"text":"海委會也好包括我們也好還有其他部會我想都會有一個我們會有一個法律戰的應處作為會出來但我想這個部分可能要私下再跟委員做個說明沒有問題"},{"start":549.509,"end":566.472,"text":"接下來還有一個就其他一些比較細節也是跟這一次這個我看夜報比較有關係的就是說這個是跟國軍服裝有關因為我們現在大家就講因為這一次在這一個不管是在救災等等之類的最近國軍的形象國人的認知看起來是有一個顯著的提升"},{"start":567.052,"end":581.977,"text":"但是在內部的這個士氣有時候我覺得也是見為知著那我在跟幾個國軍的這個兄弟姐妹在這個聊天的時候就發現他們對於這些這個服裝的這個設計我看基層的反應有時候不是那麼的好"},{"start":582.757,"end":607.612,"text":"就是說有一些我就不要講軍種有一些軍種是大家這個在購買上意願是比較高但有一些大家購買意願稍低一點稍低一點可能是因為覺得那個Logo設計的不是很好看又或者說它的字體過大等等之類的導致它今天要去連是穿的意願不要說買如果即使它今天買了連那個穿的意願在有一些軍種是比較低"},{"start":608.252,"end":633.045,"text":"我在問的過程當中當然很多人會覺得說因為他們的意見沒有被反映到有時候他們對於這個現在我們這個對於美學大家可以看到我們這個在每一次國慶的時候大家對於美學的討論其實也很多這個時候的基層有些人他對於這些到底什麼叫好看什麼不好看哪一個色號哪樣的一些字體哪樣的設計會比較好大家其實會有一些想法如果能夠廣納這些意見我覺得也是蠻重要的"},{"start":633.625,"end":659.161,"text":"但有時候我覺得以長官來講可能比如說這個價格不要太高啦就是品質OK然後價格不要太高有時候很容易就是往這種就是低價單價低的這個品項就會來做購買但如果說能夠第一個是廣大意見第二個就是其實在整個軍種裡面有些人是本來也就有設計相關的專業如果說他們能夠進來一起能夠設計的話是不是比較能夠讓大家在軍"},{"start":660.443,"end":665.945,"text":"軍中裡面能夠感覺到能夠受到重視是不是請這個看部長或者說請相關部門回答一下"},{"start":666.611,"end":692.422,"text":"就是說共通性的部分的話如果是共通性可以去購買那委員剛剛提到了我們善用美學的人才來遴選年輕時代期望的這個軍品的部分我想我們會來演繹就是說不管是陸海空三軍他們的這個服裝供收站所能夠納入的這個共通性的這個產品的這個"},{"start":694.002,"end":710.111,"text":"更好的一個設計那剛剛有講到說有有些軍種可能比較好有些軍種可能比較好那我想我們會來檢討看看是讓這個整個的這個讓這些官司兵們能夠"},{"start":713.573,"end":733.846,"text":"我們有其一的一個美學的一個展現讓官兵覺得不管是你哪一個軍種都能夠買到他覺得不錯的一個產品但是有一些是制式的服裝的部分這些可能就沒有辦法說是通用這樣子"},{"start":734.306,"end":745.959,"text":"那這個要看你是屬於哪個菌種但是菌種本身它的也應該是可以來強化我這邊問的比較像是原來的運動服那些的"},{"start":749.563,"end":769.795,"text":"我就覺得這個因為我後面有提到這個APP的跨軍種購買的問題其實也不是說一定要因為有時候他們自己私底下買有什麼其實也很方便但今天之所以提到這一點就是因為想要讓他們有一些競爭就是說呢這一個不同的軍種之間的設計有一些競爭反而可以讓更好的產品能夠出來那這樣的話國軍兄弟姐妹也會覺得自己的意見被重視"},{"start":771.456,"end":797.024,"text":"這一個就延伸到下一個問題這個在之前我忘了是在什麼時候我有問過類似的問題就是這些我們很多有一些留營意願的剛剛其實定宇文也有提到一些這邊我想問的就是因為我們真的蠻多他到國外去受訓回來之後我這一次也是在跟他們聊的時候我就發現一個我覺得是一個比較危險的事情就是很多人都甚至想說想說要賠錢但他想離開"},{"start":799.585,"end":822.017,"text":"那我說如果說只是一兩個這樣的一個個案就算了但是已經聽到為數不少那我會很擔心就是說這種事情慢慢一直發生的話其實對整個世紀也會有很大的影響那這個監察院在2023年的時候其實也有做過這個相關的報告我那時候質詢的時候是在那個2023年報告出來沒多久之後我問那時候國防部有說有會想辦法"},{"start":822.917,"end":842.865,"text":"要讓這些在海外訓練的人才回到這邊之後呢能夠盡量能夠讓他融入到軍中不然的話我之前在這個之前我在問的時候我就發現他們很多人在國外受訓然後回來之後結果最多是叫他們做翻譯啦做傳譯啦因為他們英文好但是我總覺得他們能夠他們到國外做訓練這件事情"},{"start":843.385,"end":856.749,"text":"最主要應該不是他們英文好而已而是他們有對於這個不管是先進的這些技術先進的文化管理的方式等等之類的能夠把這個帶入到國軍做更好的改革我看到業報其實這次有講到DIO就是那個創新"},{"start":859.33,"end":885.727,"text":"已經比去年更好了因為他有更多的跟這些不管是採購上的合作啊什麼等等之類這個進步看到了但關於這一種留外官兵他不管是到外面這個有派職過的或者有訓練過的能不能夠讓他回來到國軍能夠做更好的整合這個部分這一年來大概做了哪些努力各位委員報告我想我們現在尤其我這邊都相關的很重視這些國外軍校畢業生的這個"},{"start":886.827,"end":902.78,"text":"循正常的金管來歷練的這個部分所以我們國防部本身就每半年會做一次控這個金管的一個控管所以半年就會那現在都掌握有譬如說近兩百個人所以這個近兩百個人他的"},{"start":904.261,"end":925.051,"text":"尋這個金管的這個歷練來讓它這個能夠逐步在軍中能夠成長我想不會把它當作這個翻譯來使用這個狀況我們已經是每半年要控管一次那也請各軍種要注意到這個狀況好 因為時間關係這個主席再個20秒那希望就是說大概有一個簡單的統計"},{"start":926.592,"end":946.524,"text":"就是說這一些人到時候留意這個狀況什麼等等之類的是不是在這兩個禮拜給我這個資料希望未來以後也不要再發生因為現在又聽到一些我就有點擔心我想因為這個可能不以公開來說明這些相關人員我們私下可以就這些管控的部分跟委員做一個詳細的說明好 謝謝部長謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時58分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。因為今天清晨我跟定宇委員，才剛從臺美的國防工業會議回來，裡面當然有很多我覺得蠻重要的事情，但是因為很多跟預算比較有關係，等審總預算的時候再多來討論。","我問幾個比較偏向時事的問題，第一個，當然還是灰色地帶的侵擾，我最主要想問空域跟海域的部分。空域我有兩點想問一下，第一個，在6月跟8月的時候都各有一次，都是醫療專機，醫療專機受到影響之後，確實已經造成很大的困擾，我比較好奇的一件事情，也是第二個我想問的。除了一般的因應措施之外，其實在海外，看起來應該像是境外的報導，有特別去放了一些假消息說，醫療專機其實是專門要去蒐集情報等等之類的假消息。目前來講，類似像對這樣的應對，我是有看到，應該是安捷航空自己有發聲明。至於對國防部目前來講，第一個，對於這種灰色地帶的應對，目前的處置？還有，像對方後續又再放假消息的處置大概是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我想相關事件的情況，是不是先由情次室說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題。"],["謝次長日升：委員好，我是情次室次長。根據我們掌握到的，當天的確有發生這件事情，這架飛機是在民航的管制底下，因為是安捷航空，它原本就是要到金門地區做訓練，前後的確有發生過這件事情，不過這架飛機是按照民用的飛航規則在民航的管制底下進行飛行，但我們也不認為民用飛機遭受到中共軍機採取這樣子的舉措是適當的，跟委員做簡單的報告。"],["顧部長立雄：我們的飛機有飛上去做應處。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為這件事情讓我回想到去年金門禁限制水域的事件，當時對方其實也是用了虛假的消息去定義當時這個金門水域所發生的事情，藉此去擴張他的法律權力，這一次雖然他們沒有做一樣的事情，但前置作業其實非常類似，所以我覺得可能今後對於類似事情的處理應該是特別重要。","第二件事情是跟海域有關，其實跟這件事情很類似，這應該也是上個禮拜的事情而已，黃岩島現在可以看到有2艘中國海軍軍艦、4艘海警船以及數艘民兵船隻，前面陳永康委員也有提到，一直到今天為止，其實都還有類似的活動，現在就是有這種三位一體的運用，我看到在這次業報裡有特別提到一件事情，就是1月有去修國軍經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定，是否能夠先稍微說明一下類似這樣的一個處置規定？不用詳細的內容，因為我看到業報裡面有講到所謂的高、中、低風險的分野，遇到不同的風險的狀況應該要怎麼辦，但是以這樣的狀況來講，會不會陷入到像不管是我去年講的那件事情，還有像剛剛安捷航空所遇到的事情，就是當對方用虛假的消息去劃定這是一個什麼事件的時候，我們有沒有把這一種對方定義成什麼事件，藉此來擴張法律權力的這一件事情，放到相關的處置規定？"],["連次長志威：報告委員，我是作次室次長。跟委員報告，剛剛委員所提的突發狀況處置規定，我們就是因應這兩年開始，中共灰色地帶應處的這種狀況跟情勢越來越多，所以我們就律定了一個叫做授權舉證，跟在突發狀況處置規定裡面去律定交戰規則等相關的規範，會區分範圍跟類型，授權於我們戰備部隊管制的作戰單位，比如說艦指部跟空作部可以依據他所面臨的狀況，去採取即時的處置作為。當然因為中共不斷的在做一些模擬跟應用其能力上的增長去做一些轉變，所以我們每年都會針對不同的狀況去做修頒，像我們現在也開始在彙整各單位所面臨到、我們目前看到比較異常的一些動態，會持續納進來做修頒，這部分跟委員做說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，像你剛剛提到，比如說它的範圍是什麼樣子，它的類型是什麼樣子，所以我們相關應該要有什麼處置，對不對？我們在去年金門水域發生這一件事件的時候，當時部長還沒有上任，那時候還是邱部長，那時候我就有提到是不是應該要有這樣的一個處置規定，離現在應該也有超過一年半的時間，當時其實也有到辦公室先討論了一番，因為我知道這個處置規定的詳細狀況不適合在這個公開場合講，但那個時候我除了提醒要有一定的規範之外，因為這樣才有一個SOP，我們才知道要怎麼去應處，另外一個最重要的事情，就是因為對方都會利用這樣的一個情勢去放消息。比如說他今天在做這件事情的時候，他知道我們要怎麼去反應，他不管是在他們的媒體上面，或者是透過臺灣去放一些消息說其實是臺灣這邊在做一個挑釁、什麼等等之類的，就是他會有一個政治的因素跟這一個情勢的發生，是把它扣在一起的。像去年的時候，他甚至還放了海委會假的對話紀錄什麼等等之類的，這一些事情它是屬於政治，它不是在一開始講的這種範圍還有這個類型裡面，但它卻是會遇到的。所以遇到的時候，比如說心戰的單位，比如說我們的政戰單位應該要怎麼應處，是不是應該也要把這個納入到裡面？這樣我們在整體規範的時候才可能會比較順暢。"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，就國防部的部分，我們每天會有一些戰敵情的會報，會來就這個部分做應處。另外，剛剛委員提到，其實我覺得是有兩個面向，一個是認知戰，一個是法律戰，在認知戰這個部分，因為相關部分可能有一些涉及到海巡，甚至其他的部會，在認知戰的回應上面不只是牽涉到國防部，所以國安會會來主導這個部分，會做一些關於反認知作戰的……","另外是法律戰的部分，關於這種灰色地帶的侵擾，它事實上是要形成臺海內海化這一種長臂管轄的概念，不管是之前資通電軍的公布，或者是海域有關海警船或者民兵漁船，然後軍艦圍繞臺灣這種，都涉及到法律戰，所以這些法律戰的相關作為，我們要讓尤其是讓國際社會也清楚的話，就法律戰的部分，我們會引用相關的國際法規範，來進行一些法律戰的反制作為。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為部長也是法律專家，我在國際論壇上討論這些事情的時候，比較擔心的事情是，今天我們講到跟認知有關的或者說跟輿論有關的，有可能國安會相關的、國安局都可能會有一些跨部會的討論，但一旦牽扯到跟法律、律定相關的，不可能是法務部出來，他有可能會請跟外交部有關的，但其實並沒有一個主責的部門去弄法律戰。所以各國現在遇到中國，尤其像中國跟菲律賓，他們遇到這種法律戰的時候，畢竟第一線遇到的不是海巡就是國軍，這個時候到底誰才應該主管這件事情，誰應該去劃定這一個範圍，其實在每一個國家都會有點不明確，就是不知道到底應該是誰來做，所以這件事情如果後續能夠有更多的討論，我覺得應該是樂見其成。"],["顧部長立雄：我們跟國安會已經有一段時間的討論，這個部分國安會會結合相關的部會，包括外交部也好，包括海委會也好，包括我們也好，還有其他部會，我們會有一個法律戰的應處作為出來，但我想這個部分可能要私下再跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題。接下來還有其他一些比較細節的，跟這一次業報比較有關係的，就是跟國軍跟服裝有關。這一次不管是在救災等等之類的，最近國軍的形象在國人的認知裡看起來是有顯著的提升，但是在內部的士氣有時候我覺得也是見微知著。我在跟幾個國軍兄弟姐妹聊天的時候，就發現他們對於一些服裝的設計，我看基層的反應有時候不是那麼的好，我就不要講軍種，有一些軍種大家的購買意願是比較高，但有一些大家的購買意願就稍低一點，稍低一點可能是因為覺得logo設計得不是很好看，有時候它的字體過大等等之類的，導致他不要說買了，即使他今天買了，連穿的意願在有一些軍種是比較低。我在問的過程當中，很多人會覺得他們的意見沒有被反映到。","大家可以看到每一次國慶的時候，大家對於美學的討論其實也很多，這個時候基層有一些人對於什麼叫好看、什麼是不好看、哪一個色號、哪樣的字體、哪樣的設計會比較好，大家其實會有一些想法，如果能夠廣納這些意見，我覺得也是蠻重要的。我覺得以長官來講，可能就是品質OK，然後價格不要太高，有時候就是很容易往這種單價低的品項來購買，但如果能夠第一個是廣納意見，第二個，其實在整個軍種裡面，有些人本來也就有設計相關的專業，如果說他們能夠進來一起設計的話，是不是比較能夠讓在軍中的大家感覺受到重視，是不是請部長或者相關部門回答一下？"],["顧部長立雄：對於共通性部分的話，如果是共通性可以去購買，委員剛剛提到了我們要善用美學的人才，遴選年輕世代期望的軍品的部分，我想我們會來研議，即陸、海、空三軍的服裝供售站能夠納入共通性的部分，讓產品有更好的設計。剛剛講到有些軍種可能比較好，有些軍種可能比較不好，我想我們會來檢討，看看如何讓官士兵們能夠有一個齊一的美學展現，使官兵覺得不管他是哪一個軍種都能夠買到他覺得不錯的產品，但有一些是制式的服裝，這些可能就沒有辦法通用，這個要看他是屬於哪個軍種，但是軍種本身也應該是可以來強化相關產品的品質跟設計。"],["沈委員伯洋：我後面有提到app開放跨軍種購買的問題，其實也不是說一定要這樣，因為有時候他們自己私底下買什麼也很方便，但今天之所以提到這一點，就是因為想要讓不同軍種之間的設計有一些競爭，反而可以讓更好的產品能夠出來，這樣的話，國軍兄弟姐妹也會覺得自己的意見被重視。","這個就衍生到下一個問題，我忘了是在什麼時候我有問過類似的問題，有一些有留營意願的，剛剛其實定宇委員也有提到一些，這邊我想問的是，因為真的蠻多到國外去受訓的人才回來之後，我這一次也是在跟他們聊的時候發現一個我覺得是比較危險的事情，就是很多人都甚至想說要賠錢離開，如果只是一、兩個這樣的個案就算了，但是已經聽到為數不少，我會很擔心這種事情慢慢一直發生的話，其實對整個士氣也會有很大的影響。","監察院在2023年的時候也有做過相關的報告，我是在2023年報告出來沒多久之後就質詢，那時候國防部有說會想辦法讓這些在海外訓練的人才回到這邊之後儘量能夠融入到軍中，不然的話，我之前在問的時候就有發現，他們很多人在國外受訓回來之後，結果最多是叫他們做翻譯、做傳譯，因為他們英文好，但是我總覺得他們到國外做訓練的這件事情，最主要應該不是他們英文好而已，而是他們對於先進的技術、先進的文化、管理的方式等等之類的，能夠把這些帶入到國軍做更好的改革。","我看到業報，其實這次有講到國防創新小組（DIO），已經比去年更好了，因為它有更多採購合作等等之類的，這個進步看到了，但關於這一種留外官兵，不管是到外面有派職過的或者有訓練過的，能不能夠讓他回到國軍做更好的整合？關於這個部分，這一年以來大概做了哪些努力？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們現在這邊相關的都很重視這些國外軍校畢業生循正常經管來歷練的部分，所以國防部本身每半年就會做一次經管的控管，現在都掌握了，有近200個人，這近200個人循經管的歷練讓他能夠逐步在軍中成長，我想不會有請他做翻譯的狀況，我們已經是每半年要控管一次，也請各軍種要注意到這個狀況。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，因為時間的關係，主席再給我20秒。希望有一個簡單的統計，就是這一些人到時候是否留營的狀況或等等之類的，是不是在兩個禮拜內給我這個資料？"],["顧部長立雄：好的。"],["沈委員伯洋：希望未來以後也不要再發生，因為現在又聽到一些，我就會有點擔心。"],["顧部長立雄：因為可能不宜公開說明這些相關的人員，我們私下可以就這些管控的部分跟委員做一個詳細的說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","不好意思，沈伯洋委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。","休息（11時14分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"],["主席：請各位就座，現在繼續開會。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":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請陳部長我們再請陳部長我也好"},{"start":19.454,"end":39.945,"text":"部長 本期上個禮拜才誇獎說我們農業部對非洲豬瘟的努力防疫做得很好獲得世界動物組織認證成為我們亞洲的首個三大豬瘟的非疫區可以重返國際市場一個禮拜而已就破功了心情怎麼樣"},{"start":42.856,"end":65.823,"text":"很難過很難過好難過檢討追蹤改善立即保護我們豬農產業的未來這才是重點所以本席要請教部長的就是在去年的時候我們有特別提到那個廚餘的問題當然首要的首當其衝的還是境外因為台灣"},{"start":67.49,"end":86.766,"text":"並沒有非洲豬瘟對不對所以今天會發生了但是還沒確定喔你們還要做一個病毒的分析嘛對不對最重要就從境外進來境外進來的話就有防檢署為什麼沒有防檢成功讓這個非洲豬瘟進來這是先決的對不對"},{"start":90,"end":98.446,"text":"對 杜絕於境外 杜絕於境外是第一杜絕於境外是第一 那台灣沒有非洲之溫那這個就是從境外進來的 是不是 是先確定這個問題 所以"},{"start":100.39,"end":127.804,"text":"我們才會訂定了很多強加強保護這個非洲豬瘟的傳染這個問題加強了7年所以我們每次從國外回來的時候就會拿個一張綠色的卡片有沒有在疫區回來的地方這個我們都做了努力的但是今天發生了發生了趕快就要解決所以在這一家"},{"start":129.212,"end":147.887,"text":"台中這一家他的廚餘的問題你們有沒有去開始也在這個疫調當中有去篩檢有去檢疫我想整個疫調裡面包括他的生產環境包括他的廚因為他是自己煮的廚餘經過合格認證的自己煮但是我們也會去調閱所以他在98家當中"},{"start":150.515,"end":152.637,"text":"許可的我們只有98家 435場435場裡面的98家有許可證的其中之一嗎"},{"start":159.614,"end":183.69,"text":"是不是應該每個435場應該每個都是許可的每個都許可可是我們可以許可處理這個廚餘的這部分的對這是環境部要符合環境部的那個檢核再利用的部分那有一些有一些中央珍珠廠他是中央珍珠然後提供給人家所以你們也有定期去抽檢啦對他是每天在珍珠啦那你每天都"},{"start":184.59,"end":210.49,"text":"對 衛務部這邊特別是在珍珠的那個溫度有沒有溫度計都有監控器具去做monitoring以後去處理好 部長我們在2021年10月就開始針對這四養豬只有在200頭以上的中大型的養豬場才可以用高溫珍珠90度以上才可以用這個廚餘對不對是那其他的199頭以下就沒有了是那但是"},{"start":211.07,"end":233.798,"text":"我們在這個廚餘的處理的過程他們載送是屬於自己去載送還是由清潔隊送過去它這個有不同的模式啦那基本上我們不管它的來源是什麼它只要經過90度一個小時的蒸煮的話它的飼料它的那個廚餘就是安全的就可以餵豬啦這個是一個非常重要的好 那清潔隊載運的這個廚餘是怎麼處理"},{"start":237.18,"end":250.213,"text":"這個可能要問環境部會比較清楚那可能各縣市的處理方法也有不一樣的我們桃園的部分的話就會全部送去掩埋堆肥的處理不會送給養豬戶那請問你們的疫調出來這一家的廚藝是怎麼來的"},{"start":255.458,"end":280.665,"text":"我想我們在疫調裡面也會針對他的廚藝的來源包括這些人員的這一家 你就回答我這一家廚藝怎麼來的我現在還在疫調中我現在沒辦法給你這個答案好 本席就問你請去疫調這家的廚藝是他自己去再回來的還是清潔隊送去的我想我們在疫調的時候所以未來部長"},{"start":282.165,"end":303.637,"text":"我們每個縣市都有廚餘的問題都有我們回收廚餘的所以有個各縣市處理方法你都要去追蹤這也是一個破口的問題所以你要去追蹤好不好了解 我想我們針對您剛才的議題我們每天在中央前進應變所這邊如果有得到答案的話我們當天的記者會對外的說明就會說明是"},{"start":304.978,"end":330.731,"text":"所以對每個縣市的廚餘你要去追蹤這些廚餘都是到豬場還是是到掩埋場去堆肥做堆肥處理這個你都要了解我想我們會透過要追蹤去了解透過行政部這邊來了解所以你現在目前都沒辦法確定它是非洲豬瘟還是有病毒的分析我想所以盡快你大概什麼時候會公佈應該是非洲豬瘟確認但是因為在"},{"start":331.892,"end":346.23,"text":"根據WHOA的規範一定要做病毒的分類不過以現在的證據的掌握應該就是非洲豬瘟但是因為通報的關係我們現在還要分析還要做明確確定啦好不好應該明確確定下來"},{"start":347.271,"end":362.279,"text":"那現在本席想請教的就是我們現在既然發生了第一個要看房檢部分如何境外的會跑進來這個一定要再做一個防堵防堵措施再來的話就出於我想請問部長"},{"start":364.141,"end":391.523,"text":"廚餘為什麼當時我們討論的時候你沒有全面禁用你有什麼考量是什麼問題不過我想當年其實因為不同的時代可能有不同的當初有非常多的小廠然後有非常多的這些廚餘小廠199頭都是飼料所以我們那時候的一個非常重要的策略不是說沒有禁止然後就不管它我們在沒有禁止之下但是我們強化我們的廚餘本身的徵阻的監管"},{"start":392.003,"end":415.792,"text":"然後小廠的因為他沒有能力做自己的徵組所以我們把200頭以下的是不准用用用廚餘飼養一定要200頭以上的部分所以這個部分就是一個比較強而有力的監管讓廚餘變成一個安全的飼料而不是像外界說的就是沒有這樣子的一個政策就不管他我們還是有做強力的監管所以你還是有在討論是"},{"start":416.512,"end":439.19,"text":"你说时代不一样经过七年强力的加强现在七年也没有什么时代不一样了可是已经发生了那你现在全面禁用厨余是暂时性还是永久性我们现在是因为为了做疫调我们针对禁止厨余喂养是做这个怕疫情的扩散的一个断点"},{"start":439.77,"end":460.987,"text":"然後包括豬隻禁運也是一個斷點都是這兩個作為都是為了做疫調然後疫調告一段落以後我們就會來做後續的處理特別是這個潛伏期的15天是一定不能移動的然後不能餵養廚餘但是這個部分我們以5天為觀察的週期所以現在是暫時性的對"},{"start":461.587,"end":481.525,"text":"那疫调结束完毕之后的话你会盘整整个状况我们会盘整整个后续的还可不可以用厨余对我们一定是先去做厨余的加强监管然后就算要不要做厨余喂养我们也一定有足够的缓冲剂绝对不会说"},{"start":482.486,"end":507.673,"text":"今天說了明天就停止那這次是因為疫情的關係部長廚餘的部分跟環保局比較有關但是關聯的又是我們養豬戶的所以你在橫向跟環保局這邊要做好一個溝通廚餘的所有的源頭來源的輸送到哪裡供應到哪裡處理的最終辦法這些你們要互相的來做個溝通來處理好不好"},{"start":509.394,"end":533.297,"text":"你們都息息相關 最重要是跟我們的產業溝通像桃園 您桃園那邊也是一個非常重要的我們桃園沒有化製廠全台灣有九個化製廠桃園本身用廚藝的也不少排名在第三我知道 所以我跟部長提醒說桃園沒有化製廠沒有化製廠 你知道我們怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":535.717,"end":554.496,"text":"去跟那個養豬協會請他們用車輛 人力再去雲林處理我們每年要花多少錢你知道嗎我們全台灣有九個化智場對我知道桃園沒有啊所以不同的地方可以互相支援這個也是部長你未來要檢討的一個最重要的因素好不好"},{"start":555.197,"end":573.21,"text":"我們會加強單一場內用生物處理機來處理這樣的話就是也減少了運動所以部長 本市在這邊要求的就是立即要查明感染的源頭全面檢討邊境的檢疫跟廚餘的養豬戶的這個制度針對於受損的養豬戶我們要啟動專案補償的機制守住我們台灣的養豬產業好不好好 我們朝這個目標來努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時3分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席上個禮拜才誇獎農業部對非洲豬瘟的努力，防疫做得很好，獲得世界動物組織認證，成為亞洲首個三大豬瘟的非疫區，可以重返國際市場。但一個禮拜而已就破功了，心情怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：很難過。"],["呂委員玉玲：很難過，好，難過、檢討、追蹤、改善，立即保護我們豬農產業的未來，這才是重點。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席要請教部長，去年的時候我們有特別提到廚餘的問題，當然首當其衝的還是境外，因為臺灣並沒有非洲豬瘟，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以今天發生了，但是還沒確定，你們還要做病毒的分析，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：最重要的就是從境外進來，境外進來的話就有防檢署，為什麼沒有防檢成功，讓非洲豬瘟進來？這是先決問題，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，杜絕於境外是第一優先。"],["呂委員玉玲：杜絕於境外是第一優先，臺灣沒有非洲豬瘟，那這個就是從境外進來的，是不是？先確定這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們才會訂定很多加強保護非洲豬瘟傳染問題的作法，加強了7年，我們每次從國外回來的時候就會拿到一張綠色卡片，問有沒有從疫區的地方回來，這個我們都做努力了，但是今天發生了，發生了就要趕快解決，所以臺中這一家豬場的廚餘問題，你們有沒有開始在這個疫調當中去篩檢、檢疫？"],["陳部長駿季：整個疫調包括它的生產環境、包括它的廚餘，雖然它是經過合格認證自己煮廚餘，但是我們也會去調閱相關的資料。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它在98家當中？許可的我們只有98家，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：435場。"],["呂委員玉玲：435場裡面有許可證的98家中的其中之一嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：435場應該每個都是許可的。"],["呂委員玉玲：每個都是許可的？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們許可處理廚餘的這部分特別……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是要符合環境部的檢核再利用，有一些中央蒸煮廠，它是中央蒸煮然後提供給人家做……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們也有定期去抽檢？"],["陳部長駿季：對，衛福部……"],["呂委員玉玲：它是每天在蒸煮，而你們是定期去抽檢？"],["陳部長駿季：衛福部這邊，特別是蒸煮的溫度，溫度計都有監控機具去做monitoring以後再去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。部長，我們從2021年10月開始，飼養豬隻在200頭以上的中大型養豬場，經過高溫蒸煮90度以上才可以用這個廚餘，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：其他199頭以下就沒有了？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是這個廚餘的處理過程，是自己去載送，還是從清潔隊送過去？"],["陳部長駿季：這個有不同的模式，基本上，我們不管它的來源是什麼，只要經過90度C、1個小時的蒸煮，它的廚餘就是安全的，就可以餵豬，這是一個非常重要的條件。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，清潔隊載運這個廚餘是怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：這個可能要問環境部會比較清楚。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，可能各縣市的處理方法也不一樣。"],["陳部長駿季：對，可能有點不一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們桃園的部分就會全部送去掩埋堆肥來處理，不會送給養豬戶。請問你們的疫調出來，這一家的廚餘是怎麼來的？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在疫調裡面也會針對它廚餘的來源，包括這些人員的……"],["呂委員玉玲：你就回答我這一家的廚餘是怎麼來的，它自己去載的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，還在疫調中，我現在沒辦法給你答案。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，本席就請你去疫調，這家的廚餘是自己去載回來的，還是清潔隊送去的？"],["陳部長駿季：確定是自己蒸煮的，我想我們在疫調的時候……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，每個縣市都有回收廚餘的問題，所以各縣市的處理方法，你都要去追蹤，這也是一個破口的問題，所以你要去追蹤，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，針對您剛才的議題，我們每天在中央前進應變所如果有得到答案的話，當天記者會就會對外說明。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以對於每個縣市的廚餘……"],["陳部長駿季：對，包括每個縣市。"],["呂委員玉玲：你要去追蹤這些廚餘都是到豬場，還是到掩埋場做堆肥處理，這個你都要去追蹤、了解，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會透過環境部來了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們目前沒辦法確定它是非洲豬瘟，還在做病毒的分析嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["呂委員玉玲：儘快！你大概什麼時候會確定公布？"],["陳部長駿季：應該確認是非洲豬瘟，但是因為根據WOAH的規範，一定要做病毒的分類。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，最快什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：不過以現在掌握的證據，應該就是非洲豬瘟，但是因為通報的關係，我們現在還要……"],["呂委員玉玲：還要再明確確定，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，應該明確確定下來。","現在本席想請教的就是，既然發生了，第一個，要看防檢的部分，境外的是如何跑進來，這個一定要再做一個防堵措施。再來的話就是廚餘，我想請問部長，廚餘為什麼當時我們討論的時候，沒有全面禁用？你有什麼考量？是什麼問題？"],["陳部長駿季：不同的時代，可能有不同的考量，當初有非常多的小場，然後有非常多的廚餘養豬戶……"],["呂委員玉玲：小場199頭都是餵飼料啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們那時候一個非常重要的策略，不是說沒有禁止，然後就不管它，我們在沒有禁止之下，強化廚餘本身蒸煮的監管，然後小場因為沒有能力自己蒸煮，所以規模在200頭以下的不准用廚餘飼養，一定要200頭以上的才行。這個部分就是比較強而有力的監管，讓廚餘變成一個安全的飼料，而不是像外界說的，沒有這樣子的政策，就不管它，我們還是有強力的監管。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你還在討論？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：你說時代不一樣，經過7年強力的加強嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在7年也沒有什麼時代不一樣了啦，可是已經發生啦！你現在全面禁用廚餘，是暫時性還是永久性？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是為了做疫調，怕疫情擴散，因此用禁止廚餘餵養做一個斷點，包括豬隻禁運也是一個斷點，這兩個作為都是為了做疫調。等疫調告一段落以後，我們就會做後續的處理，特別是潛伏期的15天是一定不能移動的、不能餵養廚餘，但是這個部分，我們以5天為觀察的週期。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在是暫時性的？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：疫調完畢，你會盤整整個狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會盤整整個後續的……"],["呂委員玉玲：看還可不可以用廚餘，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們一定是先去做廚餘的加強監管，就算不要做廚餘餵養，也一定有足夠的緩衝期，絕對不會今天說了明天就停止，這次是因為疫情的關係。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長，廚餘的部分跟環保局比較有關，但是關聯的又是我們養豬戶，所以你在橫向跟環保局要做好溝通，廚餘所有的源頭、來源，輸送到哪裡，供應到哪裡，以及處理的最終辦法，這些你們要互相溝通、處理，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們跟環境部一直有溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們都息息相關，這個一定要去追蹤處理。"],["陳部長駿季：最重要是跟我們的產業溝通啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：對。"],["陳部長駿季：像您桃園那邊也是非常重要的……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們桃園沒有化製場耶！全臺灣有9個化製場嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：桃園本身用廚餘的也不少，排名在第三啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：對，我知道，所以我跟部長提醒，桃園沒有化製場！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：你知道我們怎麼處理嗎？去跟養豬協會談，請他們用車輛、人力載去雲林處理，我們每年要花多少錢你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，全臺灣有9個化製場……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，我知道啊！"],["陳部長駿季：9個化製場在5個縣市而已。"],["呂委員玉玲：桃園沒有啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以不同的地方可以互相支援。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這個也是你未來要檢討的最重要因素，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會加強單一廠內用生物處理機來處理，這樣也就是減少運送……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長，本席在這邊要求，你要立即查明感染的源頭，全面檢討邊境的檢疫跟廚餘養豬的制度，針對受損的養豬戶，我們要啟動專案補償機制，守住我們臺灣的養豬產業，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們朝這個目標來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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又請陳部長"},{"start":27.981,"end":47.403,"text":"好 我們再請陳部長 謝謝我們到謝玉鳳委員這個詢問結束 我們休息三分鐘謝謝部長 非洲豬瘟防疫勢同作戰是絕對不能匆匆忙忙一定要戒慎恐懼 如臨大敵"},{"start":49.865,"end":76.696,"text":"不管是房间署或者是公务署因为这个影响到整个产业链影响到甚至国内生产毛耳都会受到很大的影响国际新鱼也受到影响那东亚国家里面是日本跟台湾之前是唯一二的非诸恩非诸恩这个疫区那日本的做法你们知道日本的做法是怎么样"},{"start":77.881,"end":92.878,"text":"你說哪一方面日本有沒有出於養豬日本我所了解應該是沒有出於養豬的方式日本有沒有出於養豬有沒有為什麼日本有還是有比例是多少呢比例是多少"},{"start":93.345,"end":115.851,"text":"日本目前它是把那個廚餘做成飼料將廚餘飼料中跟我們廚餘養豬不一樣嘛我們廚餘加熱之後消毒之後就可以去養豬嘛它不是它把廚餘製作成飼料嘛所以就沒有透過廚餘去病毒傳染的問題嘛對不對所以日本的做法你可以去學習了解廚餘你還可以再利用變成飼料嘛"},{"start":117.096,"end":145.854,"text":"那我們這一次沒有用廚餘直接廚餘加熱之後但難免還是有病毒會產生嘛是所以我們為了用廚餘去養殖佔了百分之八左右對不對我們全國有大概有五千多場五千五百五十二場然後四百三十五場四百三十五場是那其中的幾個縣市不是每個縣市都有的新北 台北 台中 台北 桃園也有台中也有 屏東屏東也有 對所以其中的幾個縣市那我們當然要考慮到日本可以做到這一點"},{"start":146.874,"end":157.86,"text":"我們應該跟日本人學習而且他們不需要像我們比較繁瑣的邊境檢查是 對不對我們只要出國回來我們要經過這個廣際再一次的這個鎖定心理你都要安檢 對不對"},{"start":159.83,"end":184.196,"text":"所以這個部分不確定是從國外帶回來的所謂你心裡帶的農作品不能確定對但是我們還是要做為什麼要做呢因為我們還是用廚餘去養豬嘛是所以是不是考慮到未來的方向我建議是不是可以思考一下你要制定一個落日條款歸年一來我們廚餘養豬要慢慢退場怎麼樣去輔導把這個廚餘轉換成飼料你不做也夠那轉對做也夠啊"},{"start":190.154,"end":194.94,"text":"那麼你有做不到嗎而且我們又可以節省很多這個安檢的人力跟預算嘛"},{"start":195.663,"end":220.998,"text":"了解 我想我認同委員的說法就是說我們的廚藝養豬一定要做一些轉型那從過去108年到現在他已經降到435 本來1000多場所以這個轉型我們希望力道更加強然後第二個部分就像您說的這些廚藝我們更強化去把它做再利用變成飼料化以後那這樣的話那個風險就更低了現在可以立即啟動嗎我覺得馬上可以立即確認"},{"start":225.561,"end":254.83,"text":"如果這個技術有這個技術能夠用專利的授權的方式我都願意用授權的方式直接導入日本已經行之有年了對不對所以他們為什麼能夠確保現在不是變成東亞唯一的非洲瘟疫區我想我們會後我會去成立一個團隊就是針對日本的這個技術是不是可以直接導入到國內因為處理的樣態可能不一樣這個我想我們請專家團隊你現在做的就是治標跟這個損害管控是"},{"start":255.55,"end":269.323,"text":"你要治本一定要用到廚餘變成飼料化就沒有所謂傳染的問題我想我們立即去啟動這樣的一個研究那你要制定一個中短中長期的情況你要有一個落日條款你要讓所有目前正在廚餘養豬的435場知道說政府的政策什麼時候要退場不能再用廚餘養豬因為廚餘要轉化成"},{"start":277.03,"end":295.305,"text":"這個飼料我了解我想我們在後續的滾動檢查一定會訂出一個比較明確的逐步的這樣子有沒有機會轉型時間表要出來時間表我想我們會時間表要出來就是你要三年之內這個廚藝養豬要退場我們了解你要讓這個葉子可以有時間去緩衝去因應我知道 對"},{"start":297.327,"end":324.101,"text":"另外這個整體的防疫策略當然需要地方政府跟中央政府來合作那你整個疫情的採檢這個通報這個當然有一些市民政府的這個相關的能力不一定完全相同那你目前對地方查驗回報的這些相關的指引相關的制度有沒有考慮到從這次事件來看有沒有檢討的必要我想每一個制度裡面我們特別是從這次疫調裡面可能有一些"},{"start":325.402,"end":341.31,"text":"需要精進的地方就包括10月10號他們看到一些非典型的症狀但是如果說類似非受溫的非典型症狀也許我們在第一時間就可以採檢所以你要地方才現在有沒有一致性的指引對有沒有一致性的指引我們有我們有相關的指引"},{"start":341.53,"end":363.386,"text":"每一個地方 地方政府一定要按照你的指引來執行喔對有嗎我們現在是針對喔從花市場的監測地方跟中央同時監測花市場如果異常的時候他就要去關心這個訓務場不是 我問你有沒有這個指引的東西我請教你有沒有這個指引有這個指引有這個指引縣市政府如果沒有按照指引就是縣市政府的責任嘛你確定有這個指引嗎有"},{"start":365.678,"end":383.058,"text":"你們同仁不要隨便回答一定要確定有這個指引各縣市政府一定要按照這個指引來執行相關的防疫業務報告委員就是我們有對於非洲豬瘟的一些它的疾病的一個特徵有一些注意事項但是沒有那個"},{"start":384.629,"end":398.377,"text":"注意事項這是一個善意的提議我覺得指引有一定的要求有一定的強制性所以我建議農業部必須要去建立進出建立地方查驗回報一致性的指引這有一定的強制性那你最注意事項有時候是一些建議"},{"start":399.676,"end":428.313,"text":"好 我想我跟委員回應就是說我們現在一些注意事項是針對病症的部分然後相關的就是說如果遇到這個病症他的臨床症狀如果有類似的東西我們會變成一個很明確的指引讓這些地方政府的受益師我們迅速把這指引建立起來好 是差不多一個月之內把指引通報各縣政府他按照你的指引有相關的規範SOP去執行相關的這個包括抽葉送檢採樣送檢等等通報"},{"start":429.673,"end":435.126,"text":"了解 我想我們會同步啦不會等到疫調結束才會來做我們現在同步就來處理這個議題另外最後一個議題要請教就是"},{"start":438.228,"end":467.098,"text":"防疫安全網很重要要保險的概念保險的概念所以你現在就你用這個事後的這個撲殺補償這個救助我覺得這次都是對豬農這個沒有辦法去彌補他們損失如果一旦疫情發生的話有沒有可能建立從防疫安全網的這個計畫裡面用保險的制度來導入這個用日本用歐盟的方式來做這個部長您的看法呢"},{"start":468.561,"end":496.535,"text":"我們現在注視死亡保險可是很可惜的就是沒有包含疫病的部分那我覺得我們該注意的還是應該疫病所以這個部分我想我們會從不同面向來增加這個用這種保險的概念去降低農民的一個風險這盡快建立起來好不好這個防疫安全網把保險導入我們會來處理對疫情的掌控或者事後的這個相關的補償最後半分鐘我想請教一下公務署署長"},{"start":497.751,"end":523.368,"text":"这个从中国来的食品里面这个中国来的食品里面有些用快递虽然你的这个报告里面就是这些平台你们对平台的管理现在目前做到怎么样比如说从这个平台里面去购买中国的这些包括这个食物或者有可能对疫情造成影响这些他们可不可以进来那你们怎么去查处"},{"start":524.563,"end":546.561,"text":"跟委員報告就這個平台的管理目前我了解應該是那個產發署那邊在處理產發署我來說明一下是速發部是速發部就是電商平台是速發部來處理的你看中國這個網路平台大量販售從寄到台灣這個食品還有一個敏感專線包清關雙清包稅"},{"start":550.324,"end":568.473,"text":"這個變成一個變相走私啊那也變成一個防疫的一個破口這部分應該跨部來協調包括農業部包括這個官務署包括這個你說的產化署也好或者是抒發部也好聽說這個都買得到耶您了解嗎 那個署長我了解買得到嗎"},{"start":569.793,"end":595.693,"text":"可以透過這個平台買得到嗎這個抒發部那邊會我查過買得到買得到那就變成一個防疫的破口嘛因為你沒有辦法對他檢查還是你可以全面對他這個從中國來的郵包這些都可以檢查郭委員報告我承諾我在下禮拜還會再開中央應變中心會議我就會把這個議題納進去特別是我們邊境的除了人的首席行李關務組這邊負責"},{"start":596.934,"end":615.035,"text":"那事實上交通部對於郵包的部分他會負責然後同樣做平台也會經過郵遞嘛那他有不同的部位在合作我想我會更精進的把這個合作的機制跟他檢查的那個節點我們會把它建立的變成一個就是戒慎恐懼要如臨大地了解要全力以赴謝謝好 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時53分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長，謝謝。","稍後於謝衣鳯委員詢答結束後休息3分鐘，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，非洲豬瘟防疫視同作戰，絕對不能從從容容，一定要戒慎恐懼、如臨大敵。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們是採這個態度。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是防檢署或者是關務署，因為這個影響到整個產業鏈，甚至國內生產毛額都會受到很大的影響，國際信譽也受到影響。東亞國家裡面，日本跟臺灣之前是唯二的非豬瘟疫區嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你們知道日本作法是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：你說哪一方面的作法？"],["邱委員志偉：日本有沒有廚餘養豬？"],["陳部長駿季：日本就我所了解應該是沒有廚餘養豬的方式。"],["邱委員志偉：要確定一下，日本有沒有廚餘養豬？"],["陳部長駿季：還是有，我請同仁來說明。"],["邱委員志偉：比例是多少呢？"],["鄧所長明中：日本目前是把廚餘做成飼料，將飼料……"],["邱委員志偉：跟我們廚餘養豬不一樣嘛！我們是廚餘加熱之後、消毒之後就可以去養豬嘛！他們不是，他是把廚餘製作成飼料，所以就沒有透過廚餘造成病毒傳染的問題，對不對？所以日本的作法你可以去學習。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["邱委員志偉：廚餘你還是可以再利用變成飼料，我們是直接將廚餘加熱之後餵食，當然難免還是有病毒產生嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我們用廚餘去養豬的占了大概8%左右，對不對？我們全國大概有五千多場。"],["陳部長駿季：共5,552場，然後435場，大概是8%……"],["邱委員志偉：435場是……那其中有幾個縣市？不是每個縣市都有啦！"],["陳部長駿季：新北、臺北、臺中、屏東……"],["邱委員志偉：新北、桃園也有，臺中也有，屏東也有。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：這幾個縣市有，我們當然要考慮到，日本可以做到這一點，我們應該跟日本學習，而且他們不需要像我們比較繁瑣的邊境檢查，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我們只要出國回來，我們要經過X光機，再一次針對手提行李進行安檢，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個部分，不確定是從國外帶回來的手提行李中所帶的肉製品造成的，這不能確定嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我們還是要做，為什麼要做呢？因為我們還是用廚餘去養豬，所以在考慮到未來的方向時，我建議是不是可以思考一下？你要制定一個落日條款，幾年後我們廚餘養豬要慢慢退場，怎麼樣輔導把廚餘轉換成飼料。日本做得到，我們絕對做得到，我們沒有理由做不到，而且我們又可以節省很多安檢的人力跟預算嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我認同委員的說法，就是我們廚餘養豬一定要做一些轉型，從過去108年開始，本來一千多場，已經降到435場，這個轉型我們希望力道更加強。","第二個部分，就像您說的，這些廚餘我們更強化再利用，變成飼料化以後，這樣的話，風險就更低了。"],["邱委員志偉：現在可以做嗎？可以立即啟動嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得可以立即確認……"],["邱委員志偉：這技術面沒問題嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我想如果有這個技術，能夠用授權的方式，我都願意用授權的方式直接導入。"],["邱委員志偉：日本已經行之有年，所以他們能夠確保現在變成東亞唯一的非豬瘟疫區。"],["陳部長駿季：會後我會去成立一個團隊，就是針對日本的這個技術是不是可以直接導入到國內，因為處理的樣態可能不一樣，這個我想我們請專家團隊去評估。"],["邱委員志偉：你現在做的就是治標跟損害管控。你要治本，一定要用到廚餘變成飼料化，就沒有所謂的傳染問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我們立即去啟動這樣的研究，看看有沒有機會……"],["邱委員志偉：你要設立一個短、中、長期的計畫，你要有一個落日條款、你要讓所有目前正在廚餘養豬的這435場知道，政府的政策什麼時候要退場，不能再用廚餘養豬，因為廚餘要轉化成飼料。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，我們後續的滾動檢討一定會訂出一個比較明確的、逐步的方案，看看有沒有機會轉型成飼料……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有，你的時間表要出來。"],["陳部長駿季：時間表，我想我們會……"],["邱委員志偉：時間表要出來，就是例如三年之內，廚餘養豬要退場。"],["陳部長駿季：我們了解。"],["邱委員志偉：你要讓業者可以有時間去緩衝、去因應。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，整體的防疫策略，當然需要地方政府跟中央政府來合作，整個疫情的採檢、通報，當然每個縣市政府的能力不一定完全相同。你目前對於地方查驗回報這些相關的指引、相關的制度，從這次事件來看，有沒有檢討的必要？"],["陳部長駿季：每一個制度裡面，特別是從這次疫調裡面可能有一些需要精進的地方，包括10月10號，他們看到一些非典型的症狀，如果出現了類似非洲豬瘟的非典型症狀，也許我們在第一時間就可以採檢。類似這種東西……"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！你要地方查驗回報，現在有沒有一致性的指引？"],["陳部長駿季：有，我們有相關的指引。"],["邱委員志偉：每一個地方政府一定要按照你們指引來執行，有嗎？你現在目前有嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是針對從化製場的監測，地方跟中央同時監測，化製場如果異常的時候，他就要去關心畜牧場。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，我是問你這個東西有沒有指引？"],["陳部長駿季：有這個指引。"],["邱委員志偉：有這個指引，縣市政府如果沒有按照指引，就是縣市政府的責任嘛！你確定有這個指引嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：你們講一下好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：你們同仁不要隨便回答，一定要確定有這個指引，各縣市政府一定要按照這個指引執行相關的防疫業務。"],["蔡科長政達：報告委員，我們對於非洲豬瘟疾病的特徵有一些注意事項，但是通報的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：注意事項是一個善意的提醒，我覺得指引有一定的要求、有一定的強制性，所以我建議農業部必須要盡速建立地方查驗回報的一致性指引，這有一定的強制性，你這個注意事項有時候是一些建議。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員回應，我們現在一些注意事項是針對病徵的部分，如果遇到這個病徵，它的臨床症狀如果有類似的東西，我們會變成一個很明確的指引，讓這些地方政府的獸醫師……"],["邱委員志偉：很好，迅速把這個指引建立起來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月之內把指引通報各縣市政府，讓它按照你這個指引相關的規範、SOP去執行相關的工作，包括抽驗、送檢、採樣、通報等等。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會同步，不會等到疫調結束才來做，我們現在同步就來處理這個議題。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，最後一個議題要向你請教，防疫安全網很重要，要有保險的概念，你現在用事後的撲殺、補償、救助，我覺得都沒有辦法彌補豬農的損失，一旦疫情發生，有沒有可能建立防疫安全網的計畫，導入保險制度，用日本、歐盟的方式來做？部長，您的看法呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在的豬隻死亡保險，很可惜的就是沒有包含疫病的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得我們應該注意的還是疫病，所以這個部分我們會從不同面向增加保險的概念，降低農民的風險。"],["邱委員志偉：這個要儘快建立起來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：防疫安全網要把保險導入這個……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對疫情的掌控，或者事後的相關補償。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：最後半分鐘，我想請教一下關務署署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["邱委員志偉：從中國來的食品，有些是用快遞，雖然你的報告裡面……就是這些平臺，你們對平臺的管理目前做到怎麼樣？比如從這個平臺裡面去購買中國的商品，包括食物或者有可能對疫情造成影響的商品，他們可不可以進來？你們怎麼去查處？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，有關平臺的管理，目前就我的了解，應該是產發署在處理。"],["邱委員志偉：產發署？"],["陳部長駿季：我來說明一下，是數發部。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：電商平臺是數發部來處理的。"],["邱委員志偉：你看中國在網路平臺大量販售，寄到臺灣的食品還有一個「敏感專線」、「包清關、雙清包稅」，這個變成變相走私，也形成防疫的破口，這個部分應該跨部會協調，包括農業部、關務署，也包括你說的產發署也好，或者是數發部也好，聽說這個都買得到，您了解嗎？署長。"],["彭署長英偉：我了解。"],["邱委員志偉：買得到嗎？透過這個平臺買得到嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：數發部那邊會……"],["邱委員志偉：我查過，買得到，買得到就變成一個防疫的破口，因為你沒有辦法對它檢查，還是你可以全面對從中國來的這些郵包檢查？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我在下禮拜還會再開中央應變中心會議，我承諾會把這個議題納進去，特別是邊境的部分，除了人的手提行李由關務署負責，事實上交通部對於郵包的部分也會負責，同樣的，平臺也會經過郵遞，它有不同的部會在合作，我們會更精進地把這個合作的機制跟檢查的節點建立一個SOP。"],["邱委員志偉：這就是戒慎恐懼，要如臨大敵！"],["陳部長駿季：是，了解。"],["邱委員志偉：要全力以赴，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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200 500 1000 2000是"},{"start":36.559,"end":65.561,"text":"預計那有沒有考慮過有更高的面額因為你剛剛在回答兩百元的時候有說這兩百元可以節省皮夾空間兩張一張抵兩張那既然可以發行兩千有沒有可能考慮發行一萬不會普發先進一萬領一張就好了不因為那個流通量會更少流通量會更好那我們問一下那你參考其他國家你知道嗎美國聯邦他曾經發行的最高面額的美鈔是什麼面額嗎"},{"start":67.126,"end":89.529,"text":"这个我忘了他们在1865年第25任的财政部长发行了1万面额的美钞到后来到1934年还发行了10万面额的金币券你觉得这个有可能用吗这是用在哪里啊为什么美国要发行这么大面额的美钞它是在财政部跟央行之间的交付而已"},{"start":92.671,"end":118.658,"text":"我們沒關係我直接告訴你答案啦這個跟我們今天討論的紙鈔沒有關聯這是它是政府跟銀行之間的一個交換使用啦好那現在我們回到這裡來了那麼有人在說哎呀總裁啊你好像在拍馬屁啊說要把那個12強冠軍的印象紙鈔你認為當年我們在1998年發行的這個哨棒冠軍的這個鈔票之後你有在央行嗎1998"},{"start":121.414,"end":149.926,"text":"你進央行了沒有有那時候有人說那時候央行總裁發行這樣的事在拍馬屁嗎沒有沒有嗎還是說少棒冠軍可以上鈔票不算拍馬屁四棒賽十二強就是在拍馬屁有沒有這樣的問題應該沒有沒有所以就大膽的放心的把我們國人的驕傲就算拍馬屁我覺得也是拍我們國人的馬屁應該不會因為棒球是我們國家的光榮對不對是所以盡量去做好 下來我要請教一下"},{"start":150.586,"end":171.118,"text":"另外今天比較多聚焦在美國有沒有聽過川普賬戶共和黨提案說新生兒國家就給他100美元然後每年他的父母也可以存進去還可以不用扣稅那到了18歲的時候他就一大筆錢最近我們國內也有要選縣市長的人做這樣的倡議你覺得要達到這種倡議"},{"start":174.58,"end":197.841,"text":"有什麼條件我舉例來講他們美國的經濟顧問委員會他說如果1000元每年這樣存到18歲可以領到1萬8如果加上一些投報率可以到30萬那到28歲就109萬哇 這個真好啊這個第一桶金政府幫你存1000美金然後到你的18歲到25歲就成為百萬富翁有這個條件嗎"},{"start":201.249,"end":224.495,"text":"我覺得這個議題我沒有很瞭解我覺得就是說你政府要進去的話你要有budget你要有錢除了政府要有錢能不能預期成長是不是兩個因素第一這整個18年或25年利率要維持高檔或者說股市的平均回報率要好都不曉得"},{"start":224.935,"end":252.469,"text":"都不曉得那如果國內要推的話那我們央行可不可以告訴我們的政府說沒問題家長放心政府準備好budget投入但是央行呢讓我們這幾年呢利率都維持在高檔可以嗎可以這樣嗎不可能啦不可能好那我們來問一下但是最近呢FED說要再降息了那你認為台灣的股市美股大為激勵啊FED降息美股大為激勵你覺得台灣的股市的表現跟你央行降不降息有沒有關聯"},{"start":254.446,"end":265.719,"text":"好像比較沒有沒有什麼關聯那你認為台灣的股市的表現主要是考量什麼因素我們的台灣的股市說實在的是跟著大部分都是跟著跟著台積電走跟著台積電走台積電這些科技類股也是跟著美國的科技類股"},{"start":274.309,"end":294.434,"text":"科技類股所以說如果FIT降息有可能熱錢通通會被吸回去嗎還是說這些錢會跑到台灣來專利差很難講 沒有一定好往下看所以說如果你剛講的其實高科技是我們的優勢股那麼外資是我台股或者跟FIT是我降息有沒有關聯"},{"start":296.906,"end":317.715,"text":"我舉個例 上上週一啦也有啦 應該也有也有 但是你看看那個星期一就是國慶日那天川普又宣布要跟中國提高關稅怕美國股市大跌大家預期隔天到10月12號台股開盤的時候會大跌有沒有大跌 台積利有沒有大跌沒有啊"},{"start":318.075,"end":334.269,"text":"沒有啊是散戶啊500萬的零股戶把台積電撐上來耶所以表示這個股市台灣的股市不見得跟著美國的股市走美國的股市雖然跟FIT降息有關但是台灣的股市表現我覺得委員的那個對股票的那個知識比我還強"},{"start":336.271,"end":363.187,"text":"謝謝誇獎但是你也不買股票我也不買股票你講的頭頭是道所以說我要請教一下但現在有一個問題來了外匯存體再度改寫歷史新高多少超過6000億了那怎麼辦現在我們央行的業務報告說你們要怎樣要運用外匯存體的投資運用效益考量到對美元的匯率變動所以你要維持市場的秩序跟進場條件講了半天我們想問的是美國"},{"start":364.676,"end":383.406,"text":"FED他未降息 熱錢就跑來台灣了那如果他再降息他會不會造成外資願意加碼台股甚至會影響到匯率有沒有這個可能 央行怎麼因應我剛剛 問了三個問題譬如說九月份的時候美國降息"},{"start":383.946,"end":388.309,"text":"大家都會認為美國降息的時候美元會弱但是之後9月以後好像也沒有弱最近它都很強所以也就是說這個猜測好像也是不大對所以我覺得外資所以這個也是我們困擾的地方就是說外資的行為說實在是很難去捉摸的"},{"start":411.266,"end":419.937,"text":"是很難去捉摸的那這樣的話那是我們另外關心的議題了那這樣的話可是呢又有委員啊在院會的時候問院長卓院長說跟美國的關稅談判會不會討論到匯率"},{"start":422.379,"end":445.748,"text":"跟他的關稅談判好像沒有談到沒有涉及到匯率可是我們看到了你的報告說說本年上半年本場進場累計買匯會不會被美國列為你在操作匯率啊沒有啊不會沒有不會確定不會我覺得不會啊你覺得不會還是美國覺得不會還是川普覺得不會如果按照他的三項標準的話"},{"start":446.448,"end":466.256,"text":"我們絕對不會好但是我們有一個問題是國內比較關心的往下看其實台灣的壽險業常常有必別錯配的問題所以我們在國內的資金成本取得高保單的費率高國內的利率低是要進行海外投資對不對這是目前我國壽險的普遍困境所以他都要換匯"},{"start":468.237,"end":484.052,"text":"換匯他還要去每年投入很多避險成本購買避險的商品他有獲利還要買外匯的準備金最近金管會跟壽行要到討論說外匯準備金的制度調整要怎麼看然後他每年投入那麼多的避險成本那還要去買購買避險商品"},{"start":485.598,"end":506.304,"text":"總裁你了解這是我們目前受險業的處境吧我基本上我知道你了解嗎好那現在有個問題來了現在呢昨天我們看到了這個金管會的主委彭主委拍了一個什麼亞資中心的投資論壇有沒有看到新聞報導有看到嗎你知不支持我們卓院長推動的亞資中心"},{"start":506.964,"end":533.872,"text":"当然支持那你也支持我们的兆元投资国家发展方案我也支持好 那我们来看一下我们这个兆元国家投资方案跟亚投资产管理中心就想说必须要我们的金融商品我们的金融业者有一个金融商品这个金融商品透过台币在工建长照还有永续产业用外币的表现放到这里来然后我们有需要外币进来投资是不是这样子"},{"start":535.833,"end":555.301,"text":"那外資進來他是用美元進來啊那他有匯率的風險啊那是不是他也要購買這些避險的商品會購買避險的商品那央行有沒有開放這些匯率的避險商品有啊當然有啊說來聽聽他說將涉外匯業務將槍央行意見我們看一下"},{"start":556.641,"end":577.467,"text":"這個銀行進駐地方資產管理專區的事辦業務這金黃會說的他從今年的1月4月5月到7月他這裡面講了這麼多事情但是業者只要問到說社外會業務將洽央行意見辦理我之前也問了金黃會主委這些外資進來需要"},{"start":578.755,"end":583.698,"text":"匯率的避險商品央行有沒有同意開放可以啊可以啊事實上我跟委員報告這個就是說彭主委他非常積極的來就是說來發展你支持嗎當然支持很好所以他涉及到外匯的我總覺得"},{"start":597.346,"end":602.651,"text":"彭卓偉他都會而且他很謙虛他都會帶隊來我們中央銀行跟事實上我們也去到他那邊彼此互相來討論怎麼讓他具體來講他提出的訴求對中央銀行都會配合是這樣喔確定喔確定"},{"start":616.762,"end":631.924,"text":"確定因為我看你們央行跟今晚會的表達對於匯率的避險商品的作為你們比較保守一點他們期待比較開放一點我想是這樣 委員你也不要就是說保守就是拒絕"},{"start":633.686,"end":642.19,"text":"保守的意思就是說我開放但是會在安全的情況之下如果說我開放然後是非常有危險的時候你覺得中央銀行會開放嗎在還沒答應之前都不是拒絕都是保守"},{"start":651.736,"end":668.894,"text":"不是 我們來是open的好 那我也請主席再看所以說這個事情我要拜託下次彭主委為了雅資中心還有社外的外匯業務跟你求婚的時候你不要"},{"start":669.735,"end":693.456,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1102,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時52分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：鍾委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總裁好。今天我詢問的主題都是打問號，但是我先請教一個問題，剛剛大家在關心我們新的鈔券，你說面額都維持原來的面額，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：100、200、500、1,000、2,000？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，預計！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有考慮會有更高的面額？因為你剛剛在回答200元的時候有說，這200元可以節省皮夾空間，1張抵2張。既然可以發行2,000，有沒有可能考慮發行1萬？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：普發現金1萬領1張就好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，因為流通量會更少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我問一下，你有參考其他國家，你知道美國聯邦曾經發行最高面額的美鈔是什麼面額嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我忘了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，在1865年第25任財政部長發行了1萬面額的美鈔，後來到1934年還發行了10萬面額的金幣券，你覺得這個有可能用嗎？這是用在哪裡？為什麼美國要發行這麼大面額的美鈔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係，我直接告訴你答案，這個跟我們今天討論的紙鈔沒有關聯……"],["楊總裁金龍：政府之間的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是政府跟銀行之間交換使用。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我們回到這裡來，有人說總裁好像在拍馬屁、要把12強冠軍都印上紙鈔，當年我們在1998年發行少棒冠軍鈔票時你有在央行嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：1998……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你進央行了沒？"],["楊總裁金龍：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候有人說央行總裁發行這樣是在拍馬屁嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是說少棒冠軍可以上鈔票不算拍馬屁，世棒賽12強就是在拍馬屁，有沒有這樣的問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛，所以就大膽的、放心的把我們國人的驕傲，就算拍馬屁我覺得也是拍我們國人的馬屁……"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也不會啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為棒球是我們國家的光榮，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以儘量去做。","接下來我要請教一下，另外今天比較多聚焦在美國，有沒有聽過川普帳戶？"],["楊總裁金龍：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：共和黨提案新生兒國家就給他100美元，然後每年他的父母也可以存進去，還可以不用扣稅，到18歲的時候他就有一大筆錢，最近我們國內也有要選縣市長的人做這樣的倡議，你覺得要達到這種倡議有什麼條件？我舉例來講，美國的經濟顧問委員會說，如果每年這樣存1,000元，到18歲可以領到1萬8,000元，如果再加上一些投報率，可以到30萬，到28歲就有109萬。哇！這個真好啊！第一桶金由政府幫你存1,000美金，然後到你18歲、25歲就成為百萬富翁，有這個條件嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得這個議題我沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有很了解？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我沒有很了解，不過我覺得主要就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有什麼條件？"],["楊總裁金龍：政府要進去的話，要有budget、要有錢啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，除了政府要有錢，能不能預期成長，是不是有兩個因素？第一，這18年或25年的利率要維持高檔。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，利率，但利率不曉得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：或者說股市的平均回報率要好。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，都不曉得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都不曉得？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果國內要推的話，央行可不可以告訴政府說沒問題，家長放心，政府準備好budget投入，但是央行讓我們這幾年的利率都維持在高檔，可以嗎？可以這樣嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來問一下，最近FED說要再降息了，美股大為激勵，FED降息，美股大為激勵！你覺得臺灣股市的表現跟你央行降不降息有沒有關聯？"],["楊總裁金龍：好像比較沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有什麼關聯？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為臺灣股市的表現主要是考量什麼因素？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們臺灣的股市說實在大部分都是跟著美國的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟著台積電走？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟著台積電走，台積電這些科技類股也是跟著美國的科技類股在走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：科技類股啦！所以如果FED降息，有可能熱錢統統會被吸回去嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不一定啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是這些錢會跑到臺灣來賺利差，你覺得呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個都很難去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很難講？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，很難講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有一定？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，很難講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果照你剛剛講的，其實高科技才是我們的優勢股，那麼外資是否投資臺股跟FED是否降息有沒有關聯？我舉一個例子，上週一……"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也有，但是你看看，國慶日那天川普又宣布要提高中國的關稅，結果美國股市大跌，大家預期隔天10月12號（星期一）臺股開盤的時候會大跌，那有沒有大跌？台積電有沒有大跌？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，是因為散戶，500萬的零股戶把台積電撐上來！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以表示臺灣的股市不見得跟著美國的股市走。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國的股市雖然跟FED降息有關，但臺灣的股市表現……"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員對股票的知識比我還強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝誇獎，但是你不買股票，我也不買股票。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊，確實啊，你講得頭頭是道，都是我不知道的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要請教一下，現在有一個問題來了，外匯存底再度改寫歷史新高，多少？超過6,000億了，怎麼辦？現在央行的業務報告說你們要運用外匯存底的投資運用效益，考量到兌美元的匯率變動，所以要維持市場的秩序跟進場條件；講了半天，我們想問的是美國FED未降息，熱錢就跑來臺灣了，如果它再降息，會不會造成外資願意加碼臺股，甚至會影響到匯率，有沒有這個可能？央行怎麼因應？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛在講到這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問了三個問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：譬如9月份的時候美國降息，大家都會認為美國降息的時候美元會弱，但是9月以後好像也沒有變弱，最近它都很強啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很強？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以也就是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟臺灣的匯率也不會有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個猜測好像也是不大對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也不大對，所以也不會影響到匯率？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個也是我們困擾的地方，就是外資的行為說實在是很難去捉摸的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這樣的話，那就是我們另外要關心的議題了，可是又有委員在院會的時候問卓院長跟美國的關稅談判會不會討論到匯率？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟他的關稅談判……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會討論到匯率？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有談到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有涉及到匯率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是我們看到你的報告說：本年上半年本行進場累計淨買匯超過132.5億美元。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個跟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會被美國認為你在操作匯率？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：確定不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得不會啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得不會，還是美國覺得不會，還是川普覺得不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果按照它的三項標準的話，不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們覺得不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是有一個問題是國內比較關心的，其實臺灣的壽險業常常有幣別錯配的問題，所以我們在國內的資金成本取得高，保單的費率高、國內的利率低，所以要進行海外投資，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是目前我國壽險業的普遍困境。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以他們都要換匯，換匯還要每年投入很多避險成本，購買避險的商品，有獲利還會買外匯的準備金，最近金管會跟壽險業都要討論外匯準備金的制度調整要怎麼看，他們每年投入那麼多的避險成本，還要去購買避險商品。總裁，你了解這是目前壽險業的處境吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你了解嘛！好。那現在有一個問題來了，昨天我們看到金管會的彭主委拍了一個亞資中心的投資論壇，有沒有看到新聞報導？"],["楊總裁金龍：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有看到嘛！你支不支持卓院長推動的亞資中心？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然支持啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你也支持我們的兆元投資國家發展方案囉？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也支持啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，我們的兆元國家投資方案跟亞洲資產管理中心就講，金融業者必須要有一個金融商品，這個金融商品透過臺幣在長照還有永續產業，用外幣的表現放到這裡來，然後我們需要外幣進來投資，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那這樣外資是用美元進來啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有匯率的風險啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們是不是也要購買這些避險的商品？"],["楊總裁金龍：會啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：會購買避險的商品？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：央行有沒有開放這些匯率的避險商品？"],["楊總裁金龍：有啊，當然有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，說來聽聽，涉外匯業務將洽央行意見，我們看一下……"],["楊總裁金龍：有啦！很多啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：銀行進駐地方資產管理專區的試辦業務，這是金管會說的，從今年的1月、4月、5月到7月，這裡面講了這麼多事情，但業者只要問到：哎呀，涉外匯業務將洽央行意見辦理……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，沒有錯！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我之前也問了金管會主委，這些外資進來需要匯率的避險商品，央行有沒有同意開放？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以啊！我跟委員報告，彭主委非常積極的來發展……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你支持嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["楊總裁金龍：涉及到外匯的，我總覺得彭主委他都會，而且他很謙虛，他都會帶隊來我們中央銀行，事實上我們也去他們那邊，彼此互相討論，怎麼樣來開放……"],["鍾委員佳濱：具體來講，他提出的訴求，你們央行都採納？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，中央銀行都會配合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣喔？確定喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我會再問他喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為我看央行跟金管會的表達，對於匯率避險商品的作為，你們比較保守一點，他們期待比較開放一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣，委員你也不要說保守就是拒絕，也不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔，保守不是拒絕？"],["楊總裁金龍：保守的意思是，我開放，但會在安全的情況之下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我去跟我女朋友求婚，在她沒答應之前，她都是保守，不是拒絕？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我開放，但是是在非常危險的時候，你覺得中央銀行會開放嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，就是在還沒答應之前都不是拒絕，都是保守？"],["楊總裁金龍：這也不是，我們還是open的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔，是open的？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為主席在看了，所以說這個事情我要拜託，下次彭主委為了亞資中心還有涉外的外匯業務跟你求婚的時候，你不要拒絕，你要開放……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要點頭，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們請央行研議亞洲資產管理中心開放匯率避險商品，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以有效吸引境外資金來臺投資的可行性，一個月提出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：點頭不算，白紙黑字我拿去問彭主委，這樣才表示你是開放跟支持的，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以喔？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，總裁請回座。","接下來請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d302ad83e2d64594dd8c2d94e6d34c5cc961e6bfef52f5c0939dbd41b275635fa55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:40:41 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馬偉好部長好 部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億"},{"start":21.658,"end":50.075,"text":"漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛"},{"start":51.548,"end":75.142,"text":"我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經"},{"start":75.942,"end":95.304,"text":"非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位"},{"start":95.945,"end":121.199,"text":"那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在"},{"start":122.099,"end":146.868,"text":"它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中"},{"start":147.768,"end":171.393,"text":"那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險"},{"start":172.918,"end":178.564,"text":"所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的"},{"start":194.702,"end":210.031,"text":"所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等"},{"start":211.171,"end":230.421,"text":"這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的"},{"start":231.861,"end":244.491,"text":"包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續 因為"},{"start":247.714,"end":270.919,"text":"他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是"},{"start":275.08,"end":283.604,"text":"那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎"},{"start":286.389,"end":313.546,"text":"這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促 督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對"},{"start":316.153,"end":330.703,"text":"到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明"},{"start":340.959,"end":365.597,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定"},{"start":369.6,"end":384.541,"text":"以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定"},{"start":385.382,"end":402.579,"text":"在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席"},{"start":403.22,"end":425.583,"text":"另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊"},{"start":426.704,"end":434.706,"text":"那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的"},{"start":455.785,"end":465.549,"text":"那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程"},{"start":473.692,"end":492.147,"text":"所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙"},{"start":497.006,"end":512.898,"text":"報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的"},{"start":515.28,"end":521.644,"text":"邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年"},{"start":545.18,"end":562.488,"text":"就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行"},{"start":564.389,"end":591.094,"text":"你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是"},{"start":594.195,"end":608.325,"text":"部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的"},{"start":610.768,"end":625.395,"text":"所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎"},{"start":636.702,"end":655.368,"text":"他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款"},{"start":656.527,"end":659.128,"text":"資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款"},{"start":682.817,"end":697.788,"text":"現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一"},{"start":698.789,"end":701.251,"text":"如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船 跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船 可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來 如果"},{"start":720.087,"end":722.508,"text":"193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪"},{"start":742.194,"end":744.096,"text":"就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久"},{"start":757.029,"end":765.775,"text":"可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊"},{"start":782.525,"end":810.163,"text":"是 報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個"},{"start":811.344,"end":814.968,"text":"雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個"},{"start":835.967,"end":840.088,"text":"節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來"},{"start":864.716,"end":876.188,"text":"也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到"},{"start":877.165,"end":895.264,"text":"所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成"},{"start":896.485,"end":898.827,"text":"部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎"},{"start":916.141,"end":920.405,"text":"如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對"},{"start":941.641,"end":965.793,"text":"軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館"},{"start":969.295,"end":970.696,"text":"他從設計變更 他罰了300萬 可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的"},{"start":987.563,"end":1007.123,"text":"而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好"},{"start":1007.682,"end":1023.48,"text":"所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。其實今天大家關切的面向也很多，不過在這裡還是要請教部長，行政院在108年度提出二千四百六十七億餘元的新式戰機採購特別預算，向美國採購F-16V戰機66架，期程是從109年到115年。部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數交付有挑戰性，因為最近常常聽到「挑戰性」，不管是船也好、飛機也好，好像都說有挑戰性，請問它的意思是什麼？會很困難嗎？明年要全數交付，因為明年是最後一年嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我先請空軍參謀長來回答。"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好，我是空軍參謀長。跟委員報告，在F-16交機的部分，先前也跟委員做過報告，在109年簽約之後，從110年到112年遇到全球的新冠肺炎，造成整個供應鏈人力上非常嚴重的衝擊，所以前面的進度的部分已經非常嚴重的落後；在後續的部分，我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司以定期會議來督促、督管相關的進度。目前最新的進度是，洛馬公司已經增加人力，增加整個生產線的站位。我們也實際去廠裡面看了，它的人力也幾乎是24小時在運作，甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的狀況，這是第一個人力上面的狀況。","第二個，在111年之後，剛好也遇到了俄烏戰爭，所以在軍火上面，尤其是軍火零附件的供應鏈上也造成很大的衝擊，所以它的下游廠商也有一些供應上的問題，這個部分也慢慢在解決。","第三個部分，我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的飛機，是全數位化的，所以在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題，但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切在關注，也陸續在解決當中。最快今年飛機可以進到整個飛試的部分，至於交機完成的部分，原先、最早在109年規劃的是在明年底要全數交機，但在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過，今年年底依我們預判會有10架飛機完成組裝，但是要到明年底交機，確實有非常大的風險。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長剛剛說明了一些目前的狀況，可是這不是現在才發生，因為今年3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出廠儀式的時候，那時候國人是滿懷期待的，這是你們在3月時才舉辦的，而且6月份還信誓旦旦說今年可以完成10架以上，全案管制在115年可以接收完畢。可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況，不管是俄烏戰爭也好，不管是他下游廠商零附件的提供也好，或者他的人力調配等等其他因素，這個在之前一定都已經存在了，而且也跟你在3月及6月向全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣，只有短短不到4個月，卻有這樣的一個變化，連今年10架的目標也達不到，剛剛提到了工檢會，請問最後一次工檢會是什麼時候召開的？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看，整個生產線的狀況確實就像跟委員報告的，他有增加人力，日夜間都在趕工，連假日也都在趕工。"],["馬委員文君：所以以前沒有嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個是陸陸續續在進行的，在遷廠之後，他的人力……"],["馬委員文君：那時在立法院報告的時候為什麼你們這麼有信心說一定可以完成？然後說明年66架也可以如數的交機，且今年有10架，這都是你們說的，而且定期都有這樣的工檢會，所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到，對不對？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["馬委員文君：在這樣的狀況底下，因為明年是最後一年，特別預算結束以後，請問我們至少可以回來幾架，你們有預判嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個我們還在跟美方密切的努力當中，剛剛跟委員報告的，在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上，我們的定期會議都有在督促、督管這個進度。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，為什麼我們現在要提這個部分，因為明年是特別預算是最後一年，這個特別預算條例是有時間限制的，它的時程就是5年，對不對？到2026年？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個案子……"],["馬委員文君：這是有通過條例的，這是我們的特別預算，這也是法，所以不是說有什麼特例或沒有特例，現在沒有辦法完成，而且這個可能是第一例，因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案，然後其他的就會繳回，請主計局說明。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長。針對於特別預算之執行，在行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第五十三點裡面有特別提到「特別預算之執行，除法規另有規定之外，準用本要點之規定辦理。」我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第三十六點，有特別提到預算保留的規範；再看到預算法第七十二條，也規範了相關預算保留的規定。再來，我們這個案子是109年到115年，當時在109年要執行之前，國防部在108年10月20號也訂頒了F-16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報作業規定，裡面第三點也特別明定，在特別預算期間，如果最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話，相關預算必須辦理保留。所以明年如果真的沒辦法如期完成的話，我們會按照前述規定來辦理保留。"],["馬委員文君：好，你再把相關的資料提供給本席。"],["謝局長其賢：是，沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：因為國防部及所屬機關軍購案支出結報作業要點規定裡面是說，每年軍購案累計結匯額度逾美方執行進度值的部分，應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備，似乎沒有說到當期程到的時候，你是要做怎麼樣的保留，這個部分麻煩提供相關的資訊。","最重要的是特別預算的部分，我們支付至少超過1,500億以上了，雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更，可是當2023年就已經落後的時候，我們沒有及時去做調整發價書的動作。總之，我們現在已經支付了1,500億，可是我們到現在連一架都還沒有回來。那時候要有這個特別預算最主要的目的以及為什麼要這樣編，是為了因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長，預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會漸失優勢，而且也考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程，所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素，規劃籌獲F-16型戰機，以彌補國軍戰力的間隙。其實你都已經算好了，如果他現在沒有辦法及時的提供，請問要如何彌補戰力的空隙？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，我們會加強我們的戰備整備，在這個部分，就現有的，我們分兩個部分來講，一個是人力的補充，我們一直維持我們飛行員的編現是在最高的狀況……"],["馬委員文君：美國的說法不是這樣喔！美國對於我們的編現還有我們飛官的人數，其實他的說法也不是這樣喔！所以你說要提升戰備，我想這不是用口說的就好，如果是這樣，那我們當時就不用編特別預算了，當時也不需要訂這樣的期程，當時你們要這一筆預算的時候，就已明確的告訴我們，在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙，所以你已經算出來了，而且到現在，我們知道他明年一定沒有辦法給，那後年呢？大後年呢？是要2年、5年還是要10年？就跟潛艦一樣嗎？所以這個部分我們希望你們可以提出更具體的戰力空隙說明報告，以利你們在後面的階段，即使要保留，甚至你都可能要現況結案，然後在以後的年度再用公開預算去執行，這樣才不會亂了我們所有的特別預算。因為你都說很重要，結果到時候都執行不了，我們現在的特別預算一千多億是要在兩年內執行完成，如果你有了一個先例，那以後是不是都可以這樣？這就打壞了我們預算的紀律，所以在這裡我們先將其提出來。"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["馬委員文君：接下來探討的是我們海鯤號的部分，台船原訂11月交艦的任務，也是說有相當大的挑戰，這也是部長說的，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們每日罰款19萬，但上一次說他的計罰上限是20%，可是海軍說建造款是193億，還是這個是台船說的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：193億……"],["馬委員文君：193億是上一次說的，所以罰款的上限大概是40億，可是國造潛艦全案預算將近500億，國防部給付給台船真的只有193億嗎？總共有500億，我們給台船……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：總共493億……"],["馬委員文君：493億？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，你算493億，然後你給台船只有193億嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：他有人力款、物力款，還有建造款。"],["馬委員文君：那些都不用算？因為扣除廠房、海軍技協及其他海軍配合款，那其他的錢花到哪裡去了？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這493億包含人力、物力跟建造款，然後還有軍售款，還有海軍的契約款，要支付這些，加起來大概是這個數字。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，你們前後有很多的說法必須要一致，國防部跟海軍曾經說過，建造海鯤號一艘要將近300億，後續艦因為增加通膨相關的因素，所以後續7艘量產案預算編列高達2,840億，是這樣算出來的，所以平均一艘405億。國防部要對台船罰款，現在幫他計算只有193億，跟其他一般……像民間也有媒體報導，一般民間的商船延期交船的每日罰款大概是千分之一，如果是這樣看的話，台船一天要罰1,930萬！民間商船罰款跟這個比，大概高達101倍，現在不是一定要罰台船，可是跟剛剛的戰力是一樣的意思，這19萬算起來，如果193億的20%，大概40億，40億一天罰他19萬，要罰五十幾年才會達到上限、才會解約，可是你現在已經在編後續艦，這一艘到底能不能用？不知道！五十幾年以後才達到他的解約上限條件，這中間如果不堪、沒有辦法交艦給海軍，或者他根本沒有戰力，或者有其他重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候，我們怎麼樣去做後續艦？是繼續計罰，還越罰越久，可能一百多年以後，這對我們會形成非常大的戰力間隙。","當時要建潛艦的時候，告訴我們他非常重要，尤其對維護臺海周邊安全，這個也是大家提出來的理由之一，現在的狀況會造成什麼影響？你後續還能這樣造嗎？因為你再怎麼罰，他被罰一年、兩年，對他來說，他明年還是轉虧為盈啊！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我很簡單講，當初因為第一次由國內自行設計跟建造，這是屬於第一次，所以採取比較合理的約束跟鼓勵來讓他改進、能夠繼續推動。因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰，另外船廠的能力，採購公告如果太嚴苛，後面參標的部分也會有一些影響，所以當初整個這樣設計出來、訂定出來……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，雖然之前您不是在這個位置，可是已經執行一段時間，我們沒有要嚴苛，可是他是要形成戰力還有安全，現在所有的人講出來的條件，要讓他海試都只有提安全。過去在建造的時候，那時候須要嚴苛但是卻不嚴苛，我們所有人都樂觀以待，全部都說這個節點沒問題、那個沒問題，當時什麼都沒問題的情況下，現在建造出來卻要五十幾年以後才可以罰到他的上限，我們要的不是罰款，你錢已經付了，我們這一艘潛艦到底要怎麼做？你後續還有7艘，你必須依據原型艦，如果他必須要做非常大的變動，甚至不是原型艦，你後續艦都已經是重新建造，所以這個是很重要的關鍵點，今天會特別提出來也是一樣，希望探討的是這個部分，部長，您怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：我想一定是要維持品質，也就是要符合我們的作戰需求，這部分一定要達到。"],["馬委員文君：所以也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準，你計罰的……"],["顧部長立雄：我想兩次機密報告，一次公開報告都已經有說明，我們現在了解的還是相關系統的調校，技術的困境我覺得已經逐步在克服，我們有信心還是可以建造完成，只是多一點時間。"],["馬委員文君：部長，他已經建造完成，我現在要說的是，他不是技術的問題而已。我上一次提出，雖然台船有說不是卡車，我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的、經過延壽改裝的戰車引擎？如果是，這是非常不恰當。部長，沒有關係，您幫我們認證，因為你是法律人，我們希望包括海軍司令，還有包括部長，你們相關人員必須對事情用負責的態度，到時候幫忙認證他的主機到底是什麼？","另外，時間的關係，我們看到國防部不管是對軍購也好，或在一般的商售、很多的採購，其實都發生非常大的問題。像國防部對於各工程的建案，還有建案設計的得標廠商，幾乎沒有約束力。部長，您是專業的法律人，希望在這部分可以完整去解決，因為不是只有這個，包括軍博館，他從設計、變更，雖然被罰了300萬，可是又多給了8,000萬，甚至一蓋拖了十年。所以就這個部分，你不管是在工程，有很多的訓場、靶場、所有的建築，最簡單的建築案，國防部幾乎都是延宕的，而且都不斷增加預算。這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題，在今年度預算上面也有編列像律師的費用，我們希望部長可以本於你法律專業，就這個部分澈底解決，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：我有不斷持續在跟採購司，還有相關的法律司等等，我們都在研討精進，我想這些部分一定會逐步改善。"],["馬委員文君：如果有改善的方向或者具體的作法，也請提供書面報告。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：兩週好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員的質詢。","下一位質詢的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3ac4f11acbeb9f4e6cbd78a287304ef9f61e6bfef52f5c093c3fce4b81f0d65c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:41:58 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那你也辛苦了接下來本席要說的是今年5月份我們台灣才剛獲世界動物衛生組織認定為朱溫飛一國成為亞洲一同"},{"start":84.644,"end":103.571,"text":"這個唯一的可以同時來取得傳統豬瘟口蹄疫跟非洲豬瘟三大豬變非疫國這個是我們一直來努力的而且已經打陣但是沒有想到在這個4個月之後那10月10號發生了養豬場出現了豬隻異常死亡的這個情況那麼到20號有發現到"},{"start":114.055,"end":130.533,"text":"17支的租资的这些现象所以本席首先也就是说在发生时间的时候当我们在21号确认为非洲租赁阳性并采取扑杀跟禁运的这个措施"},{"start":131.354,"end":143.245,"text":"那也顯示出在整個的過程當中我們到底到目前為止當然似乎是可確定是非洲豬瘟但是還是要經過科學的一個證據最後確認"},{"start":147.108,"end":163.588,"text":"在這個情況當中我們也採取了一些措施包括中央的措施地方台中市政府的措施一直大家中央地方合作來努力那目前的情況是如何呢請做說明"},{"start":164.912,"end":193.404,"text":"我想我們特別是在昨天開始成立台中前進應變所那在應變所裡面特別也邀請了台中市政府的農業局的環保局的人員就是說在這個情況的疫調的過程中一定是中央跟地方通力合作的那也感謝台中市政府的配合還有相關的單位的配合包括其他部會那我們希望說這個疫調能夠更清楚的釐清的時候找出這個來源找出這個可能的破口那這樣的話以後我們才有機會更精進"},{"start":195.824,"end":223.586,"text":"對 那這個就是中央地方大家一起來努力本席非常的希望當國人有所質疑隱憂的時候我們政府不管是地方政府 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是這個部分就是說如果他是有非典型的症狀的時候那即使是非典型的症狀不同的病所產生的病徵可能還可以更細緻的去做做一些病徵的確認所以這個部分我想防炎署跟我們的獸醫院也會針對這個部分"},{"start":321.972,"end":345.627,"text":"有一個比較好的一個所謂的SOP讓第一線的獸醫師能夠更清楚的去做判試然後寧願料敵從寬有疑似的時候像類似這個有疑似的時候應該同時去做採檢這樣的話才能夠讓我們在第一時間更早發現我想我要謝謝部長也就是剛剛所做的說明"},{"start":346.687,"end":368.89,"text":"我們要怎麼樣在這一次的這個樣態裡頭我們的精進方案就成如剛剛部長您所說的非典型的症狀那我們的SOP流程要怎麼樣可以更精進讓第一線的人在採取的時候可以更多元而且"},{"start":369.511,"end":387.653,"text":"能夠更廣泛的這個圍堵那這個本席也希望去研擬這個方案然後告訴執行者告訴縣市政府告訴社會大眾這個你認同這樣的方向吧我非常認同而且我們覺得這些精進作為也是重要的一環"},{"start":389.175,"end":402.147,"text":"接下來本席也要請教關務署跟農業部那因為到底議員是從哪裡來我相信部長你也說過各種的方向"},{"start":403.768,"end":432.421,"text":"這個非洲豬如果萬一真的百分之百是了現在99點多是那真的是了我們知道非洲豬瘟它不可能是在我們本土自己產生那就是境外那在這樣的情況之下剛剛關務署也特別說了不管是你這個X光機呀或者是大家說的這個警犬那這一些防疫犬都必須要加強有這個方案"},{"start":432.961,"end":458.121,"text":"那這樣的一個情況我們現在到底議員從哪裡來就你早上所說明的那現在有沒有更可以明確的方向因為現在還沒辦法確定因為包括因為疫調包括動物包括人特別是那個疫場的人是不是有曾經出國到其他的國家那個疫場是不是有曾經"},{"start":459.582,"end":476.847,"text":"就是私自買進一些可能被遺漏的被X光線遺漏的這些可能的肉品所以這個東西就是可能是人可能是動物然後我們還要做疫調那疫調完了以後我們才能夠確定哪個可能是破口我們才會做更精進的作為"},{"start":477.267,"end":504.885,"text":"我想國人都希望破口到底是怎麼樣我們大家都希望知道那政府也必須要跨部會去討論去研議那我想所有的國人都希望知道破口到底是在哪裡我們才能夠好好的去防範這是很重要因為本席認為當疫這個豬瘟發生的時候我們應該要好好的全力的來這個檢疫"},{"start":506.846,"end":526.213,"text":"防疫以及接下來本席要討論的產銷的一個條件因為這不只是這一個億而是關係著我們千億以上的產業也就本席剛開始開會的時候我特別提出這是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以因此本席要強調是說"},{"start":527.714,"end":550.074,"text":"在整個國家的這個邊境線必須要檢討跟加強剛剛我們已經討論過你也同意我們要怎麼樣阻絕可能的疫情來擴散這是民眾需要知道的在防檢的每一個角落每一個環節要怎麼樣好好的去落實那所以包括了關務署這邊我也務請必須要好好的"},{"start":553.517,"end":576.703,"text":"去檢討怎麼樣去加強這個SOP流程跟進進那這個是我們現在要聽的我相信所有的人都知道經濟委員會每一個成員都全力的在支持我們的農業支持農業部那尤其是我們的農民我們經濟委員會都全力的在支持所以我也希望在"},{"start":577.987,"end":604.505,"text":"一定要鞏固好 守住我們的台灣豬這個是一定非常的重要委長 部長你的方向也是如此吧對 所以我們才會斷然的就是在第一時間我就決定全國性的禁載禁運還有除以養豬 停止除以養豬這個是可能傳播的熱戀所以我們把它斷掉了以後傳播電斷掉以後我們才能夠精準的找出那個案場的來源對"},{"start":606.407,"end":618.655,"text":"對 所以一定要好好地守住我們的台灣豬這是非常重要所以因此我們第二期的這個養豬計畫您現在的進度送到行政院了嗎"},{"start":619.677,"end":647.097,"text":"我們已經送到行政院了然後我們我所了解大概這一兩天應該就會合了但是這一兩天合不是因為非洲豬瘟有產生這個狀況才合因為大家都一直在追蹤因為要鎖住我們台灣豬的產業那你預計應該下個禮拜會出來我相信這個禮拜應該就能夠因為整個預算是經過立法院同意動之的但是因為計劃沒合就主要是計劃沒合定我們在動之會比較困擾"},{"start":648.26,"end":659.593,"text":"所以一定要趕快合會 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請楊總裁"},{"start":19.318,"end":40.661,"text":"總裁好 看到您的報告就是說新台幣決定要來改版了現在已經有發行了24年的時間現在說也先要改版那請問一下要改版的是指100 500 1000嗎還是只有指500我們都會改都會改預計啦 現在是預計說5張都要改"},{"start":44.662,"end":53.585,"text":"我們看一下就是說現在台幣現在是有100有200有500有1000有2000所以這五種都要改嗎預計啦因為我們現在要成立一個諮詢委員這個會討論最後的決定是怎麼樣到目前為止不過我們預計是這五張都要改版"},{"start":71.23,"end":76.015,"text":"我自己在流通上面大概是100、500、1000比較常用200跟2000現在流通量怎麼樣對 流通量200是比較少2000塊還好"},{"start":86.127,"end":104.98,"text":"兩千塊還好對 兩千塊還好兩千塊之所以還好是因為我們個人用兩千塊的不多但是機構 公司 行號他在用兩千塊的會比較多所以一般我們在ATM我們會用到兩千塊的比較少所以兩百還會繼續再發行嗎"},{"start":106.641,"end":131.417,"text":"所以我們也會考量所以諮詢委員我們只是說我現在就是說預計改版就是說這五張都要改版但是我們成立了諮詢委員會到最後也是由他來給我們的一些的建議我們改版也要看未來的流通性是 目前大家來看的話剛剛也有委員做這樣的一個建議所以這個都是為流功我們做參考"},{"start":132.117,"end":141.344,"text":"對啊 因為200的確是流通量比較少看到所以說這五種的圖案都會做更改就對了"},{"start":144.048,"end":169.204,"text":"如果说改版的话基本上图案都是会改的不过现在我都还在讲因为你们有一个委员会由他来决定来给我们做最后的一个建议所以理论上你看我们500是93年的然后1000块也是93年然后2000块是90年其实都没有特定的政治人物"},{"start":171.485,"end":189.25,"text":"其實我也希望說未來新台幣改版這一個不要有特定的政治人物在上面這個我們會類為參考我們就彰顯台灣的精神彰顯台灣的價值的方式有很多所以我是希望說既然有這個計畫要改版的話"},{"start":189.97,"end":209.915,"text":"然后这个目前的这个100 200 500 1000 2000这五种都要改版那我是建议说不要有这个政治人物的图案在上面那再请教一下那目前的这个因为那个总裁有提到说是要防伪嘛那目前我们的伪操的数量多吗不多"},{"start":210.675,"end":225.922,"text":"不多所以表示我們的防偽性還是算是好的算是好的那有沒有一個數據啊有啊我們2014年我們有但是每年都不高都不會超過以前是0.2總裁你的數據是哪一年的2024年這個是0.05百萬0.05百萬"},{"start":239.488,"end":243.775,"text":"每百萬張就只有0.05張每百萬張有0.05張每百萬張有0.05張是什麼意思0.05"},{"start":254.631,"end":271.998,"text":"很低 我們很低以前是高 現在是越來越低你們有分嗎比如說是1000的 500的 100的有這樣分嗎因為你這樣應該是概括的這是概括的有沒有分嗎比如說1000的比較多還是500的多還是100的比較多每張有的嗎 沒有有嗎 有這樣區分嗎"},{"start":273.218,"end":293.271,"text":"沒有 我們這個是overall的這其實應該要做這樣的區分才對啊你才知道說是哪一種有可能被偽造那他可能1000的機會會比較高啦因為他的面值比較大啦 我在猜啦但是你們沒有做這方面的統計你們就是只有全部的這是去年的"},{"start":294.672,"end":300.417,"text":"對 這個是去年的那這幾年下來的數據都差不多嗎都差不多2022、2023、2024都差不多都大概是百分之0.5張嗎對 就每百萬張就只有0.06張"},{"start":315.783,"end":338.88,"text":"0.05 0.05 0.06 0.05 0.06張大概是好 那請問一下那現在改版的這一個這每一張啦因為我看你們的資料目前的流通的票券平均單價是3.5塊是不是對 沒有錯那所以說那你說那現在未來要做的話是高出1.5那所以說等於是平均每一張是5塊錢對5塊錢如果加起來是5塊錢那所以那因為剛剛很多委員有關心到說"},{"start":340.523,"end":369.522,"text":"大概如果要改版的話需要多少的預算我剛聽這個總裁意思是說看我們的發行量對 我們會看我們的發行量而且我們大概也會在116年或是117年會編117年以後我們會編列預算那時候編列預算就會比較明確大概一個譬如說你現在市面上流通的這個新台幣的大概張數有多少"},{"start":374.171,"end":391.004,"text":"50億張50億張 對那你不用每一次就全部換掉嘛對不對對啦 當然啦 不用啦逐年泰萬嘛是 逐年泰萬對啊 那所以說那大概你們第一年你們第一年病人預算大概需要多少這個目前還沒有做這樣的一個評估或是說你們希望泰萬的話一年希望泰萬要多少啊我們7億到10億"},{"start":394.245,"end":399.788,"text":"要大概是7億到10億7億到10億就是每一年貸換的話那數字也很好算出來7億到10億如果10億就50億因為這樣5塊錢的話平均來講所以就是大概平均編到大概50億左右"},{"start":415.647,"end":431.519,"text":"是這樣子算嗎沒有錯因為從你們每一年台灣的數量然後每一張平均的單價來看的話那大概是這個數據那剛才因為你們會社會委員會我們只是提到說我們的一些看法希望說"},{"start":433.2,"end":451.959,"text":"彰顯台灣精神不要有政治人物哪一黨都一樣現在過去也都一樣請教一下總裁我們現在有可能最快11月初要普發現金1萬塊我看你們報告裡面寫說你們有數位金流平台這是要負責發放現金1萬塊的單位嗎"},{"start":456.863,"end":478.854,"text":"它有好幾個方式對 因為它有五種方式但是如果說對數位的 發放數位的就是由我們的平台來提供來 董事長來講一下就是說普發現金以外快跟你們相關性的平台的作用在哪裡"},{"start":479.813,"end":507.994,"text":"是跟委員報告照目前行政院的規劃第一個在網站上面的登記也是在這個平台的功能裡面第二個在身份的核驗也是在這個平台的功能裡面那當然剛剛委員提到的真正在發放現金這五種這個通路的這個總控管也是在這個平台裡面最後譬如說這個路障或是提線都是在這個平台裡面控管所以我們那個登記路障ATM領線"},{"start":509.819,"end":536.816,"text":"郵局領線 這個都跟你們有關係嗎都有都有關係 對都是在你們這一個數位公共建設金流平台是這是第一次使用嗎這是之前六千的時候有用但是那個只是比較雛形的然後我們整個在央行的指導下把它整成一個數位公共的建設的金流平台以這個名字來看是第一次使用第一次使用"},{"start":537.987,"end":564.986,"text":"那你有沒有測試過啊 有有有因為現在 剛開始的時候大家已經大概擠在前兩天要去領這一萬塊 是那所以你看嘛就是說如果這個包含登記啦登記應該是在網路上面登記嘛 是然後ATM郵局這個應該都是跟你們有相關的是 都有 對不對那有沒有做過這個壓力測試啊 有不要說你第一天就大家去領結果說整個平台都塞車耶"},{"start":565.586,"end":576.133,"text":"有有有 這個跟委員報告第一個在做這個事情它前面有分流的機制第二個這個壓力測試我們都有完全的做完不是 你們壓力測試怎麼測試比如說上線多少人"},{"start":577.678,"end":603.608,"text":"我們壓力測試就是說我們模擬有在台灣發的交易有在國外發的交易 因為登記這些的量我們用雲端的設備來做大量的登記對 我的意思是說有沒有去說譬如說一秒多少人進去就像有時候在買票一樣就會當機那你們有做過這個測試嗎說一秒大概多少人進去然後就有可能會當機"},{"start":604.588,"end":610.192,"text":"有 我們做的是這個平台每一秒它可以有2000人以上然後持續一個小時譬如說我每一秒都2000人都這樣子進來擠了一個小時我們都沒有問題都沒問題 如果到3000人"},{"start":620.158,"end":632.262,"text":"3000人目前來看我們的系統的設計是橫向的就是說我們也準備了一些備援的這個機器如果真的量很大的時候我們機器就加進去董事長不要最後有塞車塞車最後變成這個發現已經是好事結果發現說這個塞車大家又在抱怨"},{"start":636.603,"end":650.338,"text":"是的跟委員報告是說有沒有信心通過這個考驗我們是有信心就是說如果說他真的很大量因為他整個前面會有分流的機制也會有管制的機制那這樣子可以讓他順順的把它做完這樣我時間到了嗎"},{"start":655.104,"end":673.456,"text":"我問最後一題好了問一下總裁好了因為我看到我們CPI其實在食物類都偏高因為現在這兩天都發生台中非洲豬類的事情對我們CPI會不會有影響"},{"start":675.54,"end":680.722,"text":"這個我們昨天也有討論到這個一開始的時候大家都認為可能會豬肉因為豬肉的價格本來最近都比較高就是說可能會但是豬瘟疫發生的時候可能需求量也會下來剛開始一定會搶對 剛開始是supply不足但是現在有可能就是說因為是這樣子的話需求量會減少"},{"start":701.127,"end":714.437,"text":"如果說供給不增加然後需求量減少的話那大概價格就不會上漲了我是做這樣的一個基本上所以我的意思就是所以總裁認為豬肉價格是先漲後跌嗎還是怎麼樣所以我昨天我沒有討論到這個問題昨天討論的情況"},{"start":723.044,"end":738.07,"text":"但是我們的意思就是說那對CPI會不會影響我們同事說應該是不會後來我也是這麼想如果說你的需求沒有的話那價格大概漲不上去只是供給量沒有而已要看影響的時間"},{"start":739.15,"end":740.432,"text":"對啦 這個我們會持續來關注現在也沒辦法來做那你說短時間對CPI沒有影響就對了對 我們應該就說今年應該是不會這樣子 好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":957,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時39分）謝謝主席。我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李召委早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好。看到您的報告，新臺幣決定要改版了嘛！因為已經發行了24年的時間，所以現在要改版，請問一下要改版的是指面額100、500、1,000嗎？還是只有500？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都會改。"],["李委員坤城：都會改？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，預計啦、預計啦，現在是預計五張都要改。"],["李委員坤城：我們看一下現在臺幣是有面額100、200、500、1,000、2,000嘛！所以這五種都要改嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，預計啦！預計啦！我們預計，因為我們現在要成立一個諮詢委員會，這個會討論，最後的決定是怎麼樣到目前為止不曉得，不過我們預計是這五張都要改版。"],["李委員坤城：在流通上面，我自己大概是100、500、1,000比較常用，200跟2,000現在的流通量怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，流通量200是比較少，2,000塊還好。"],["李委員坤城：2,000塊還好喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，2,000塊還好，2,000塊之所以還好是因為我們個人用2,000塊的不多，但是機構、公司行號用2,000塊會比較多，所以一般我們在ATM會用到2,000塊的比較少。"],["李委員坤城：所以200還會再繼續再發行嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們也會考量，只是說現在預計這五張都要改版，所以我們成立了諮詢委員會，到最後也是由它來給我們一些建議。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是改版也要看未來的流通性。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：目前大家來看的話……"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛也有委員也做這樣的建議，所以這個都是會留供我們做參考。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，因為200的確是流通量比較少看到。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，都可以……"],["李委員坤城：所以這五種的圖案都會做更改就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果改版的話，基本上圖案都是會改的，不過現在我都還在講，就是說……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，因為你們有一個委員會嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，由它來決定，它會給我們做最後的建議。"],["李委員坤城：所以理論上，你看500是93年的、1,000塊也是93年，然後2,000塊是90年，其實都沒有特定的政治人物，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，這些都沒有。"],["李委員坤城：其實我也希望未來新臺幣改版不要有特定的政治人物在上面。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們會列為參考。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們就彰顯臺灣的精神、彰顯臺灣價值，方式有很多，所以我希望既然有計畫要改版的話，然後目前的100、200、500、1,000、2,000這五種都要改版，我是建議不要有政治人物的圖案在上面。","再請教一下，因為總裁有提到要防偽，目前我們的偽鈔數量多嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不多。"],["李委員坤城：所以表示我們的防偽性還算是好的就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，算是好的。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有數據？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，2014年我們有……但是每年都不高，以前是0.2……"],["李委員坤城：總裁，你的數據是哪一年的？"],["楊總裁金龍：2024年是0.05、百萬。"],["李委員坤城：0.05、百萬？"],["楊總裁金龍：每百萬張就只有0.05張。"],["李委員坤城：每百萬張有0.05張是什麼意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：很低啦，我們很低啦！以前是高，現在是越來越低。"],["李委員坤城：你們有分嗎？比如說是面額1,000的、500的、100的，有這樣分嗎？因為你這樣應該是概括的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這是概括的。"],["李委員坤城：沒有分嗎？比如說1,000比較多，還是500的多，還是100的比較多？有這樣區分嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們這個是overall的、全部的。"],["李委員坤城：其實應該要做這樣區分才對，你才知道是哪一種有可能被偽造，可能1,000的機會會比較高，因為它的面值比較大，我在猜啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：流通量高。"],["李委員坤城：但是你們沒有做這方面的統計。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有。"],["李委員坤城：你們就是只有全部的？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：這是去年的？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個是去年的。"],["李委員坤城：這幾年下來的數據都差不多嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：都差不多，2022、2023、2024年都差不多。"],["李委員坤城：都大概是百萬分之零點五張嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，每百萬張就只有0.06張。"],["李委員坤城：0.06喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：0.05、0.06。"],["李委員坤城：0.05、0.06張。"],["楊總裁金龍：大概是。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下現在改版的正本一張單價，因為我看你們的資料，目前流通的票券平均單價是3.5塊，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：你說未來要做的話是高出1.5，所以等於是平均每一張是5塊錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，如果加起來是5塊錢。"],["李委員坤城：剛才很多委員有關心到如果要改版的話需要多少的預算？我剛才聽總裁的意思是看我們的發行量？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！看我們的發行量，而且我們大概也會在116年或是117年以後編列預算，那時候編列預算就會比較明確。"],["李委員坤城：現在市面上流通的新臺幣張數有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：50億張。"],["李委員坤城：你不用一次就全部換掉，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，不用。"],["李委員坤城：所以逐年汰換嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，逐年汰換。"],["李委員坤城：你們第一年編列的預算大概需要多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：目前還沒有做這樣的評估。"],["李委員坤城：或者你們一年希望汰換掉多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：大概是7億到10億。"],["李委員坤城：就是每一年汰換的話？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["李委員坤城：那數字也很好算出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，7億到10億。"],["李委員坤城：對呀，如果10億就50億嘛，因為平均一張5塊錢的話，就大概50億左右。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：對呀，因為從你們每一年汰換的數量、每一張平均的單價來看大概是這個數據。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：你們會設有委員會，我們只是提到一些看法，希望彰顯臺灣精神、不要有政治人物，哪一黨都一樣，現在、過去也都一樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["李委員坤城：請教一下總裁，現在最快11月初就要普發現金1萬塊，我看你們報告裡面寫說你們有數位金流平臺，這是要負責發放現金1萬塊的單位嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這有好幾個方式……"],["李委員坤城：對，現在有5種方式……"],["楊總裁金龍：發放數位的就是由我們的這個平臺來提供……"],["李委員坤城：來，董事長來講一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：好！"],["李委員坤城：普發現金1萬塊跟你們的相關性以及平臺的作用在哪裡？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，照目前行政院的規劃：第一個，在網站上面的登記也是在這個平臺的功能裡面；第二個，身分的核驗也是在這個平臺的功能裡面；當然，剛剛委員提到真正發放現金這五種通路的總控管也是在這個平臺裡面，譬如說入帳、提現都是在這個平臺裡面控管。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們登記入帳、ATM領現、郵局領現都跟你們有關係嗎？"],["林董事長國良：都有。"],["李委員坤城：都有關係？"],["林董事長國良：對。"],["李委員坤城：都是在你們這一個數位公共建設金流平臺？"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["李委員坤城：這是第一次使用嗎？"],["林董事長國良：之前6,000的時候有用，但是那個只是比較雛形的，然後我們在央行的指導下把它整成一個數位公共建設金流平臺，但是以這個名字來看是第一次使用。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有測試過？"],["林董事長國良：有！"],["李委員坤城：剛開始的時候大家一定會擠在前兩天要去領這1萬塊，如果包含登記，登記應該是在網路上面登記，是不是？"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後ATM、郵局應該都是跟你們有相關的？"],["林董事長國良：是，都有。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有做過壓力測試？"],["林董事長國良：有。"],["李委員坤城：不要第一天大家去領，結果整個平臺都塞車！"],["林董事長國良：有！跟委員報告，第一個，做這件事情在前面有分流的機制；第二個，壓力測試我們都有完全做完。"],["李委員坤城：你們壓力測試怎麼測試？譬如說上線多少人？"],["林董事長國良：我們的壓力測試是模擬有在臺灣發的交易、有在國外發的交易，因為是登記，這些量我們用雲端設備來做大量的登記。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是，有沒有譬如說一秒多少人進去，就像有時候買票一樣會當機，你們有做過這個測試嗎？一秒大概多少人進去就有可能會當機？"],["林董事長國良：有，我們做的是這個平臺每一秒可以有2,000人以上，然後持續1個小時，譬如說每一秒都有2,000人一直擠進來，擠了一個小時我們都沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：都沒問題？"],["林董事長國良：對。"],["李委員坤城：如果到3,000人呢？"],["林董事長國良：3,000人的話，目前來看，我們系統設計是橫向的，我們也準備了一些備援的機器，如果真的量很大的時候，我們的機器就加進去、會擴大。"],["李委員坤城：董事長，不要最後有塞車，因為塞車最後會變成，原本發現金是好事，結果塞車造成大家在抱怨。"],["林董事長國良：是的，跟委員報告，當然如果……"],["李委員坤城：有沒有信心通過這個考驗？"],["林董事長國良：我們有信心，如果真的很大量，因為整個前面會有分流的機制，也會有管制的機制，這樣子可以讓大家順順的做完。"],["李委員坤城：我問最後一題，問一下總裁，我看到我們的CPI在食物類都偏高，這兩天又發生臺中非洲豬瘟的事情，對我們的CPI會不會有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們昨天也有討論到這個，一開始大家都認為那可能會……因為豬肉的價格最近本來都比較高，所以可能會……但是豬瘟一發生之後可能需求量也會下來。"],["李委員坤城：剛開始一定會搶嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，剛開始是supply不足，但是現在有可能因為這樣子所以需求量會減少，如果供給不增加、需求量減少的話，大概價格就不會上漲。我是做這樣的一個……所以我的意思就是說，應該對我們CPI不會有影響。"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁認為豬肉價格是先漲後跌嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們昨天也有討論到這個問題……"],["李委員坤城：昨天討論的情況怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們的意思是，對於CPI會不會影響？我們同事說應該是不會；後來我也是這麼想，如果沒有需求的話，價格大概漲不上去，只是供給量沒有而已。"],["李委員坤城：不是，也要看影響的時間呀。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！這個我們會持續來關注，好不好？"],["李委員坤城：對，如果說短時間……"],["楊總裁金龍：現在也沒辦法來做很準確的……"],["李委員坤城：你說短時間對CPI沒有影響就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！我們的意思是今年應該是不會。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子喔，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d32c2e86df33b9435ccbd78a287304ef9f61e6bfef52f5c093ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:32:19 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我想我們整個的邊境的一個管制第一個就是旅客帶過來的這些手提行李 後送行李對 然後我們這個手提行李是百分之百然後我們特別針對高風險區像有一些有39國已經發生非洲豬瘟的國家我們就強制的百分之百那相對的我們做國際的郵包還有後面的走私的部分所以我們這是跨部會的一個聯防的部分是防堵我們的邊境作為"},{"start":118.365,"end":146.794,"text":"加嚴防堵對一定我們一定會加嚴我們來談這個這次這個非洲豬瘟這個事情一方面是因為症狀非典嘛對不對而且沒有資訊很有限所以才這個判定才會失準那專家寫者現在提的就是說就是事前提早知道這個非常重要所以他們提醒了一個點來我們看一下就是我們台灣曾經研發非洲豬瘟的快篩"},{"start":147.782,"end":169.331,"text":"這是全世界唯二亞洲第一而且獲得國際上世界動物衛生組織OIE參考實驗室的這個認證保定 它有幾個優點它有幾個優點 現在先生就在提醒你就要提早知道它有狀況嘛 對不對它的潛伏期就可以驗了活豬的時候"},{"start":171.874,"end":188.148,"text":"活豬的時候潛伏期就可以驗了然後第二個他10分鐘就會知道就驗得出來了跟我們當初那個COVID-19那個整個那個測試非常非常的快第三個你就降低這個非洲豬瘟的傳染風險其實專家提醒這個有可能是我們最近可以派得上用場的嗎"},{"start":188.989,"end":216.643,"text":"我跟委員報告這家試驗公司所開發的試劑這邊講到受到國際認可它是送到中國的參考實驗室認證它並沒有向台灣我們台灣有參考實驗室它並沒有來向我們台灣的參考實驗室申請認證的部分有沒有有認證還沒認證這是有啦OIE認可的一個實驗室世界動物衛生組織OIE認可的一個實驗室它的優點來我跟你講先者專家提醒的優點是什麼潛伏期就可以驗出來了"},{"start":218.34,"end":237.803,"text":"而且他很快嘛 就跟10分鐘就知道你這樣就可以降低非洲豬瘟傳染這個風險你看你現在不是說要希望附近的不要擴散出去對不對那你不是盡快 例如說附近的幾公里內的全部趕快測有問題進一步去測嘛然後如果全國的可能有症狀的"},{"start":238.707,"end":265.492,"text":"會趕快塞啊 我想對 之前我們不會採用這個因為台灣是清的嘛是乾淨的肺液區但是現在有開始有一些病例的時候我們要用更積極的方式去做這些疫調的過程中然後您剛才講這個方法我會請我們的專業團隊來評估因為某個程度也會擔心當你測出來快塞因為快塞的準確度還是有個百分比萬一是有他自己害怕自己就把它撲殺掉了"},{"start":266.252,"end":270.345,"text":"那反而會讓疫調更為不精準所以我想這個以後專業團隊他們專家會議去討論"},{"start":273.638,"end":299.617,"text":"它這個快篩是專業的 它是要抽血您可以要求那個獸醫要在現場所以你剛剛講那個是可以解決的所以我說像這樣子的方式我想交由我們的專家團隊去研議說是不是應該用這種方式如果他們建議我們一定會去採行好 OK 這個是很多專家學者建議的趕快評估一下 好不好然後第二個就是除以這個風險"},{"start":301.787,"end":318.208,"text":"現在我們這個養豬除蟻使用就剛剛張家慶張委員問過了8% 協界本來說10% 它更精準是8%可是非洲出溫的疫情90%都來自於除蟻現在當然有人在罵說為什麼不禁那你現在就是先禁15天對不對"},{"start":319.734,"end":340.424,"text":"對 我們的透過我們的潛伏期的15天所以我們本身是以15天為一個我們做疫調的因為現在禁止是斷點然後疫調如果完成了以後我們就會重新的去檢討我們如果要開放那要更好的一個控管的機制"},{"start":341.664,"end":368.905,"text":"對 那如果說要禁止那也要有一個大家合理的討論空間要怎麼樣的轉型所以這個部分喔 我想我們會用一個很完整的方案喔如果完成以後會對外來說明絕對不是說今天要或不要8%引起90%的這個危險確實要 當然沒有沒有 部長我跟你講就是事後 你當然15天之後你要檢討要不要用嘛 對不對那如果要繼續用 一定要做到兩件事情第一個 第一個他在爭主要"},{"start":370.034,"end":387.302,"text":"我們絕對強力的控管90度C一個小時 一定要漏死第二個 我看了環境部的資料他說是不是應該要有個病毒的檢查你做成試藥之前 要不要多一道安全的可以測試嘛 這很簡單對不對"},{"start":389.079,"end":404.914,"text":"你若要繼續用 今天能不能清楚的表達說以後做好病毒檢查我想喔 除以如果經過真正合格的徵組完了以後再進去飼料室安全的齁那如果說除以都要做病毒檢查那表示說我們設計的這一套徵組機制是不對的"},{"start":407.759,"end":423.307,"text":"現在就是因為你徵阻了以後你現在出現漏洞所以90%都來自那邊我跟委員報告現在的來源到底是從哪邊來的現在還在疫調不能說是廚藝我想人員可能的國外的接觸 豬場的接觸都有可能所以我們現在 各種可能"},{"start":424.187,"end":442.476,"text":"你剛才講嘛那是可能之一嘛除非是可能之一嘛所以你要先禁止這15天嘛對不對那我現在就跟你講除了徵阻要落實之外你要不要多一道安全的措施我想能夠更強力的監管我們一定會做好OK最後做幾個建議第一個這次受害的這個產業"},{"start":445.27,"end":471.404,"text":"至少有養豬的這個產業鏈對不對然後第二個豬肉的這個加工業還有我們餐飲的觀光業這個衝擊都是非常大的我們請先要趕快做評估而且要盡量去幫他們好不好會 我們會來做評估另外部長我最後要幾個東西你兩個禮拜內給我第一個就是我相信這是全民現在也急著要的就是加速完成這次疑似案件的各項問題的釐清包括是真為"},{"start":472.845,"end":500.375,"text":"非洲的這個豬瘟嗎病毒出這個來源到現在才查嘛對不對傳染的方式傳染的來源途徑這是第一點第二個要建置這個病疫病的這個資料庫老實講我們現在是缺了很多啦第三個儘速完成疫調並且要公布喔同時嚴防可能這個病毒擴散到譬如說彰化來混零病世界養豬的這個大縣那如果不幸不幸疫情真的這個擴大了"},{"start":502.165,"end":511.093,"text":"要緊急提出來對農業跟養豬產業有具體的支持政策跟措施那之後我提兩個建議弱品市場以後如果恢復了"},{"start":513.04,"end":533.257,"text":"對於豬的這個健康的把關跟強化要有一個明確的說明另外養豬這個產業鏈也要利用這個計劃調整跟升級好不好謝謝委員這五大這個部分我想我們一定也是朝這個方向在做但是我跟委員報告不可能兩個禮拜因為疫調有它的疫調的程序我沒辦法在兩個禮拜就告訴你所有的答案"},{"start":534.878,"end":561.981,"text":"所以只要疫調完成了以後因為這是全部的一個作為嘛只要疫調我們疫調每一天都會公布我們的進度然後最後有一個比較清楚的時候我們一定第一時間把相關的資料提供給委員疫調完成就儘快給他好不好我們不會沒有辦法兩個但是疫調完成我們第一時間一定會讓經濟委員會還有所有委員知道共同努力啦是希望把這件事情了解好謝謝謝謝委員守護我們人民的這個健康"},{"start":562.341,"end":562.963,"text":"讓這個整個養豬產業不要受到衝擊我們一起來努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":461,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，先替記者朋友問你一個他們剛剛一直追著要問你的問題，最近這幾年夾帶疫區豬肉進來的案件大概有好幾百件，對不對？現在這部分的邊境管制會加強嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的邊境管制只有越來越精進、強度越來越強，從108年開始一直到現在，7年間我們的作為沒有降低層級，而且我們精進的作為也越來越高，所以在相關的裁罰部分也有一定的數量。整體來看，從國外進來的違法部分有越來越少的趨勢，表示因為我們的宣導，特別是國人從國外帶進來的豬肉也有越來越少的趨勢。"],["張委員啓楷：現在因為非洲豬瘟襲臺，會不會因為這樣子而更加嚴，有沒有做什麼緊急措施？"],["陳部長駿季：對於整個邊境管制，第一個，旅客帶過來的這些手提行李、後送行李……"],["張委員啓楷：增加了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，手提行李是百分之百，然後我們特別針對高風險區，像39個已經發生非洲豬瘟的國家，我們就會強制百分之百，相對的，我們也會針對國際郵包，還有後面走私的部分，所以我們是跨部會聯防、防堵邊境作為。"],["張委員啓楷：加嚴防堵就對了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們一定會加嚴。"],["張委員啓楷：再來，我們來談這次的非洲豬瘟事件，一方面是因為症狀非典，而且資訊很有限，所以判定才會失準，專家學者提到事前提早知道非常重要，所以有提醒一個點，我們看一下，我們臺灣曾經研發非洲豬瘟快篩，這是全世界唯二、亞洲第一，而且獲得國際世界動物衛生組織（OIE）參考實驗室的認證。部長，它有幾個優點，現在學者專家提醒要提早知道它有狀況，它在潛伏期就可以驗了、活豬在潛伏期的時候就可以驗了。第二個，10分鐘就會知道、就驗得出來了，跟當初COVID-19的測試一樣，非常非常快。第三個，降低非洲豬瘟的傳染風險，這是學者專家的提醒，我們有可能最近可以派得上用場嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，這家私人公司所開發的試劑，這邊講到受到國際認可，它是送到中國的參考實驗室認證，我們臺灣也有參考實驗室，它並沒有來向我們臺灣的參考實驗室申請認證……"],["張委員啓楷：有啦！"],["陳部長駿季：世界動物衛生組織（OIE）認可的實驗室。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講學者專家提醒的優點是什麼，潛伏期就可以驗出來了，而且很快10分鐘就知道，這樣就可以降低非洲豬瘟傳染風險，你現在不是希望附近的不要擴散出去，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["張委員啓楷：你是不是要儘快，比如附近幾公里內的全部趕快測，有問題就進一步去測，全國可能有症狀的也趕快篩，就像我講的COVID-19的狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：之前我們不會採用這個方法，因為臺灣是乾淨的非疫區，但是現在開始有一些病例，我們要用更積極的方式去做這些疫調的過程，你剛才講的這個方法，我會請我們的專業團隊來評估，因為某個程度也會擔心，快篩的準確度還是有個百分比，萬一測出來有，他自己害怕就把牠撲殺掉了，反而會讓疫調更為不精準，所以這個由專業團隊專家會議去討論。"],["張委員啓楷：這個快篩是專業的，它是要抽血的，可以要求獸醫要在現場。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你剛剛講的問題是可以解決的。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我認為交由我們的專家團隊去研議是不是應該用這種方式，如果他們建議我們一定會去採行。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，這是很多專家學者的建議，趕快評估一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個是廚餘的風險，養豬廚餘的使用剛剛張嘉郡問過了，學界本來說10%，他更精準說是8%，可是非洲豬瘟的疫情90%都來自於廚餘，現在有人在罵為什麼不禁，你現在是先禁15天，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，透過潛伏期的15天，所以我們本身是以15天為做疫調的時間，因為現在禁止是斷點，疫調如果完成了以後，我們就會重新去檢討，如果要開放就要有更好的控管機制，如果要禁止也要有一個合理的討論空間，要怎麼樣轉型，所以這個部分我們會有一個很完整的方案，完成以後會對外說明，也絕對不是今天要或不要……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，8%引起90%的危險，當然事後、15天之後要檢討要不要用，如果要繼續用一定要做到兩件事情，第一個，蒸煮要100度C、1個小時，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對強力地控管，90度C、1個小時。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要落實。第二個，我看了環境部的資料，它說是不是應該要有病毒檢查，做成飼料之前要不要多一道安全措施，這很簡單，如果要繼續用，今天能不能清楚表達以後會做病毒檢測？"],["陳部長駿季：廚餘如果經過真正合格的蒸煮完了以後，再進去飼料是安全的，如果廚餘都要做病毒檢查，表示我們設計的這一套蒸煮機制是不對的。"],["張委員啓楷：現在就是因為蒸煮了以後還出現漏洞，90%都來自於那邊。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在的來源到底是從哪邊來的還在疫調，不能說是廚餘，人員可能的國外接觸、豬場接觸都有可能，所以我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：各種可能都有，你剛才講那是可能之一，廚餘是可能之一，所以你才先禁止15天，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就跟你講，除了蒸煮要落實之外，要不要多一道安全措施，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想能夠更強力的監管，我們一定會做。"],["張委員啓楷：好，最後我有幾個建議，第一個，這次受害的產業，至少有養豬產業鏈。第二個，豬肉加工業，還有餐飲觀光業，這個衝擊都是非常大的，我們要趕快做評估，而且要儘量去幫他們，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會來做評估。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，部長，我最後要求幾個東西，你兩個禮拜內給我：第一個，我相信這是全民現在也急著要的，就是加速完成這次疑似案件之各項問題釐清，包括是否真為非洲豬瘟？病毒株來源到現在還在查，傳染方式、傳染來源途徑，這是第一點。第二個，建置疫病資料庫，老實講，我們現在缺了很多。第三個，儘速完成疫調，並且要公布，同時嚴防可能的病毒擴散到旁邊的彰化、雲林這些養豬大縣。如果不幸疫情真的擴大了，要緊急提出對農業及養豬產業具體的支持政策及措施。我提出兩個建議，肉品市場以後如果恢復了，對於豬隻健康的把關及強化要有一個明確說明；另外，養豬產業鏈也要利用這個機會好好調整與升級，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提出這五大建議，我們一定也是朝這個方向在做，但是我要跟委員報告，不可能兩個禮拜，因為疫調有疫調的程序，我沒辦法在兩個禮拜就告訴你所有的答案。"],["張委員啓楷：所以其他四個可以？"],["陳部長駿季：只要疫調完成了以後，因為這是全部的作為，我們的疫調每一天都會公布進度，最後比較清楚的時候，我們一定第一時間把相關的資料提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：疫調完成就儘快給我們，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒辦法兩個禮拜，但是疫調完成，我們一定第一時間會讓經濟委員會，還有所有委員知道。"],["張委員啓楷：好，加快速度，我們共同努力，我希望把這個疫情壓下來。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：趕快釐清，守護我們人民的健康，一方面讓整個養豬產業不要受到衝擊。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一起來努力，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員啓楷代）：請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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有請國防部長及中科院的院長請顧部長還有中科院院長是 黃委員好部長好那個 針對今天中科院的改革的轉型那我想請教一下我們的院長"},{"start":27.318,"end":55.58,"text":"中科院過去有許多長期結構性的一個問題的存在而且這個監察院都在糾正那例如財務以標暗管理透明性的不足缺乏這個競爭機制官僚的文化科技成果轉移民間的移轉力非常的低等等的問題我想中科院院長你來回答我這個問題"},{"start":60.417,"end":87.58,"text":"您提到有關監察院指出的問題確實就是中科院前一陣子一直存在的問題那我倒認這個職位我們也是針對這樣子的結構性問題來做改革我想你根本就沒有能力改革嘛你到了去年去年的七月份到現在你改革了什麼東西啊你改革了什麼東西官僚作風你到現在都還是官僚作風"},{"start":89.329,"end":90.978,"text":"你替國防部做了什麼事情啊"},{"start":94.175,"end":121.962,"text":"不少人認為你到了中科院最主要的工作之一就是協助中科院的改革的轉型但是轉型了沒有本身想了解一年多來中科院在你的領導之下是否有新的氣象新光三任 三八活你的三八活因應了原來的這些官僚作風你把這個報告改革了 改革了什麼東西"},{"start":122.842,"end":136.492,"text":"把這個報告趕快給我這一份委員沒有問題我一個禮拜之內可以給委員這份報告中科院近期對無人武器系統的發展特別的重視在過去有不少民間廠商認為"},{"start":138.653,"end":167.911,"text":"中科院以民间厂商在无人机与无人舰量产与协作方向的黑箱垄断的余力那在去年的三叶监察院因应纠正国防部和陆军司令部督导的不周在办理伪制战术型进程无人飞机的载具在载具的案中发生主舰对外采购的过程不合理的"},{"start":169.179,"end":191.29,"text":"不合理的評選包含十位評委中有六位是中科院的自己人那三位入境士官外聘學家學者只有一位同案中垂直起降無人機製作等三項採購但評但別"},{"start":195.671,"end":217.964,"text":"評選委員評分一場的高度將近百分之百百分之九十五點五五且評選優勝者還採用私標廠商協力廠商的光學產品交貨所以等等的問題你再改革了沒有後續我再問一下請教"},{"start":220.028,"end":246.773,"text":"產協界也反映中科院廠商在量產階段與民間廠商協作但自身又以子公司或關係企業參與這個就是球員兼裁判球員兼裁判你有沒有做到現在改革方向方針到底球員兼裁判還存在了沒有你回答一下"},{"start":247.533,"end":276.579,"text":"很簡單回答第一個從我去年上任之後中科院原本的五家子公司現在中科院沒有任何一家登記在案的子公司這是第一個第二個中科院委員剛剛提到的去年三月份陸軍第二代進程無人機的標案那是由陸軍司令部當時所做的決策那當時因為這個標案它在第一代是由中科院生產的所以當時陸軍考量到延續性所以它在標案裡面的委員的確有聘請比較多的有關中科院的委員"},{"start":277.219,"end":297.111,"text":"但是中會的委員在評選過程中間我們也從來沒有針對我們自己或是有任何協力廠商去做任何的私相授受的行為我想這個標案到現在有沒有具體的規範排除類似的狀況 有沒有有 我答應給委員把這些報告也給我把這個規範都給委員"},{"start":298.612,"end":319.988,"text":"好 那去年的外交部林部長率團台灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟出席在立陶宛舉辦的無人機產業論壇之後就傳出中科院計畫將以具備的無人機設計授權國內業者"},{"start":323.351,"end":340.938,"text":"那業者若獲得訂單中科院再依產量取得權利金目前中科院執行的狀況如何收到的權利金有多少你回答一下各位報告我們現在經過國安部核定"},{"start":341.877,"end":362.97,"text":"已經可以釋出的技術就是總共有九項那這九項技術我們現在是開放給業界來認領那業界跟我們連協商的合約都還在簽署當中所以說目前還沒有任何權利金的收入我們目前所有收入的部分是我們替國內無人機業者所做的技術服務去年"},{"start":364.091,"end":384.176,"text":"外交部林部長都率團到立陶宛那你應該現在授權給國內的業者應該要收取的權益金到現在一個都沒有九項是檯面上的九項檯面下的九項另外你執行的沒有這就是你執行的能力問題嘛部長"},{"start":386.519,"end":408.484,"text":"如果他沒有這個能力的話該換了啦重新的把中科院提政提升能夠更好如果今天中科院長沒有這個轉型的能力的話也應該重新思考是不是呀還有更好的人選台灣的無人機裡面"},{"start":410.486,"end":424.254,"text":"載機的產業發展不如中美起步也稍晚了一點那其實包含日韓日本跟韓國也發現在這個領域上如果無法做到精密的合作"},{"start":426.151,"end":426.371,"text":"所以 部長"},{"start":443.26,"end":458.32,"text":"你能不能回答一下剛剛以上這一些的種種中科院過去的弊端包含以軍民合作的立場上是不是要改進改變部長你來回答一下"},{"start":459.45,"end":483.681,"text":"我想剛剛院長有提到了像現在中科院的五家子公司都沒有了就沒有沒有再有子公司這個狀況存在這第一個第二個就是說科技成果向民間的移轉那我們現在也在督促中科院要盡量的移轉這些技術那我也督促軍備局要加強督導這個部分所以我們現在不斷的在研"},{"start":485.001,"end":502.69,"text":"這個中科院可以去做計轉的這個部分所以中科院也在努力的在進行當中那其他相關一些我想院長已經做了一些的改革之後他剛剛已經同意就是說因為詳細的部分在於書面跟委員做一個報告這樣子"},{"start":503.75,"end":531.118,"text":"因為中科院是以具有目前來講無人機包含艦的部分來講是一個重中之重要轉型要改型提升這是一個非常重要的一環中科院不能夠再跟過去一樣官僚文化的作風因為今天來講國防部長有責任監督那對國人來講當然要有交代"},{"start":532.418,"end":546.268,"text":"那另外就是關於中科院院長請回我想請教一下部長今天的報告中提到了明年陸軍將新增的無人機大隊海軍陸戰隊66旅戰車營也將轉型為無人機營"},{"start":553.573,"end":572.762,"text":"本席在今年6月就陸軍將成立首次無人機部隊提出書面的質詢指出根據美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲的挑戰在於無法完全適應戰場的轉型"},{"start":575.723,"end":584.813,"text":"那美軍的經驗無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲這個以傳統部隊完全協同任務根據"},{"start":589.362,"end":607.892,"text":"這些傳統部隊在與地面部隊是不是有協調性的共同的一個協調因為目前來講據說還沒有各做各的希望了解國際對無人機部隊的相關信念作為"},{"start":608.732,"end":629.311,"text":"不過當初給本席的回覆是陸軍表示目前只有人員操作無人機的訓練還沒有進行到相關的戰術的訓練那參謀長回答這個問題好不好我們是不是連山來回答一下就這個相關的"},{"start":630.782,"end":649.926,"text":"我想無人機有一個整體的規劃我們包括有訓示室來負責的相關的一些無人機的訓練那整體的這個作戰的整體的無人機的整體的規劃也有一些好 委員好 我是作機師次長跟委員報告 我們無人機是先從作戰運用規劃來去規劃整體的構想"},{"start":653.007,"end":667.455,"text":"那接著會依照不同的包含 尖針型 攻擊型無人機並且整合到我們現行的精準武器還有各軍種的制式的武器怎麼結合整體的作戰應用來形成多層次的擊殺鏈"},{"start":668.536,"end":695.565,"text":"那因此依照這樣子的作戰應用我們在國防部已經測班了一個作戰機無人機的作戰應用的一個準則那並且再交由各軍種依照他的戰術任務的執行來去測班他作戰應用的準則跟教則必須去執行訓練那這個相關的訓練規劃都在各軍種的訓練班隊還有現在成編之後無人機的大隊各單位的無人機的編組會持續向下做細部的發展好 向下"},{"start":696.565,"end":725.134,"text":"待會我要問你 你們後續的進度如何本身發現很多人在看待國防部容易產生一個誤區就是擁有武器就代表擁有戰力但是其實戰力的來源之一是如何以戰術發揮人員和武器的優勢那因此本身想請教無人機大隊要成立除了飛手養成外"},{"start":727.762,"end":737.748,"text":"硬要還要包含什麼在含電維護員資料分析人員和指揮官這些人員是否已經開始著手培訓"},{"start":739.11,"end":759.925,"text":"有沒有著手培訓跟委員報告我們是以無人機的到最小是一個無人機的小組那這裡面當然包含到組長兼真的操作手跟攻擊手還有後勤的這個操作手所以他是一個整體的編組那至於他整體編組的各部的執行作為跟後續的訓練建議這個私下再跟委員做報告"},{"start":760.405,"end":787.246,"text":"無人機的部隊要形成一個大隊了但你們現在都還沒有著手尤其是航電維護員包含資料分析員因為你的飛機你的無人機在整個在飛航當中的時候取得了很多很多相關的資料回到這個地方要恢復你們給你們一個答案資料啊可是你們現在連這個都還沒有還沒有著手那什麼時候著手"},{"start":788.446,"end":802.971,"text":"跟委員報告一下事實上我們海軍的瑞淵無人機目前在您提到的這些項目裡面它已經是既有的編制人員那針對比較複雜的部分事實上是未來MQ-9B的這個部分"},{"start":804.091,"end":825.388,"text":"他會給我們帶來全新的這些訓練的功能那這個部分我們初期的人員的選訓已經開始進行那從明年年初開始我們就會把總指教官送到美國去接受從航管一直到電子等等各方面的訓練這些國防部這邊他都有一個完整的規劃好 那個主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":826.403,"end":837.791,"text":"那個無人系大隊成立在一起除了目前飛索的信念是否已充足也想知道各司令部是否已經無人系的戰術教範跨軍種的是否已經有連戰的教範"},{"start":843.234,"end":863.125,"text":"那無人機是否在未來戰場的主流讓無人機的部隊形成戰力必須要有充足的準備從基礎的平台操作緊急程序安全作業到終極的任務規範流程徵收程序終據的"},{"start":867.634,"end":884.815,"text":"這個連管理電池對抗再到高級的地面火力空防電子戰整合任務即時的聯絡流程等所以這個就是你們現在本來就要準備要著手"},{"start":885.757,"end":899.095,"text":"該信念的該怎麼樣的趕快無人機的成立大隊不是一個開玩笑我們花了這麼多的一個公帑我們應該要積極要著手趕快來整合部長"},{"start":901.597,"end":919.795,"text":"跟委員報告 我想現在您講的無人機大隊是指陸軍的無人機大隊但事實上無人機形態是非常的多樣剛剛我們站櫃師提到了像MQ-9B這個是屬於空軍在運用的高高空的無人機"},{"start":920.632,"end":941.529,"text":"那另外有關這些針尖型的不管是瑞淵或者是來濟江瑞淵二這些等等它的運用本來就我們有這樣的一個尖針型無人機的一個配布跟編制那相關的這些陸軍的無人機是比較屬於路面"},{"start":942.109,"end":965.118,"text":"操作型、一二型的這個無人機所以這個每個層級的一個教範都會不一樣那我們都陸續已經在進行當好 到時候成立了只是一個形同形式上的一個空殼無人機的部隊我想你們趕快 因為後續我會追蹤你們的進度 你們著手"},{"start":965.899,"end":978.396,"text":"信念整個過程應該要我再來下次我再來追蹤 好不好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝黃仁委員的質詢各位長官請回座 先喝杯水"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請國防部長及中科院李院長。"],["主席：請顧部長，還有中科院院長。"],["顧部長立雄：是，黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。針對今天中科院的改革轉型，我想請教一下我們的院長，中科院過去有許多長期結構性的問題存在，而且監察院都在糾正，例如財務與標案管理透明性不足，缺乏競爭機制、官僚的文化，科技成果向民間移轉率非常低等等的問題，我想中科院院長，你來回答我這個問題。"],["李院長世強：委員，您提到了有關監察院指出的問題，確實就是中科院前一陣子一直存在的問題，我到任這個職位，我們也是針對這樣子的結構性問題來做改革。"],["黃委員仁：我想你根本就沒有能力改革嘛！你從去年7月份到現在，你改革了什麼東西啊？你改革了什麼東西？官僚作風，你到現在都還是官僚作風，你替國防部做了什麼事情啊？不少人認為你到了中科院最主要的工作之一就是協助中科院的改革轉型，但是轉型了沒有？本席想了解，一年多來中科院在你的領導之下，是否有新的氣象？新官上任三把火，你的三把火是因應了原來的這些官僚作風，你改革了什麼東西？把這個報告趕快給我一份。"],["李院長世強：委員，沒有問題，我一個禮拜之內可以給委員這份報告。"],["黃委員仁：中科院近期對無人武器系統的發展特別重視，但過去有不少民間廠商認為，中科院與民間廠商在無人機與無人艦量產以及協作方向有黑箱壟斷的疑慮，在去年3月監察院也因應糾正國防部和陸軍司令部督導不周，在辦理委製「戰術型近程無人飛行載具」案中，發現組件對外採購的過程有不合理的評選，10位評委中，有6位是中科院的自己人，3位陸軍士官，外聘學者專家只有1位。同案中「垂直起降無人機製作等3項」採購，評選委員評分異常達99.55分，且評選優勝者還採用失標廠商協力廠商的光學產品交貨等等的問題。你在改革了沒有？後續我再問一下，產學界也反應中科院常常在量產階段與民間廠商協作，但自身又以子公司或關係企業參與，這個就是球員兼裁判，現在的改革方向、方針，你有沒有做到？到底球員兼裁判還存不存在？你回答一下。"],["李院長世強：委員，我很簡單回答，第一個，從我去年上任之後，中科院原本5家子公司，現在中科院沒有任何一家登記在案的子公司，這是第一個。第二個，委員剛剛提到去年3月份陸軍第二代近程無人機的標案，那是由陸軍司令部當時所做的決策，當時因為這個標案在第一代是由中科院生產的，當時陸軍考量到延續性，所以它在標案裡面的委員的確有聘請比較多的有關中科院的委員。但是中科院的委員在評選過程中間，我們也從來沒有針對我們自己或是有任何協力廠商去做任何的私相授受的行為，我想這個標案到現在……"],["黃委員仁：有沒有具體的規範來排除類似的狀況？"],["李院長世強：有，我答應給委員的報告裡面會……"],["黃委員仁：把這些報告也給我。"],["李院長世強：把這個規範都給委員。"],["黃委員仁：好，去年外交部林部長率團台灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟出席在立陶宛舉辦的無人機產業論壇之後，就傳出中科院計畫將已具備的無人機設計授權國內業者，業者若獲得訂單，中科院再依產量取得權利金。目前中科院的執行狀況如何？收到的權利金有多少？你回答一下。"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，我們現在經過國防部核定，已經可以釋出的技術總共有9項，這9項技術現在我們是開放給業界來認領，業界跟我們協商的合約都還在簽署當中，所以目前還沒有任何權利金的收入，我們目前有收入的部分是我們替國內無人機業者所做的技術服務。"],["黃委員仁：所以你的執行力不夠嘛！去年外交部林部長都率團到立陶宛，現在你授權給國內業者應該要收取的權利金到現在一個都沒有，9項是檯面上的9項，檯面下的9項，另外你執行了沒有？這就是你的執行能力問題嘛！部長，如果他沒有這個能力的話，該換了啦，重新把中科院提振、提升，能夠更好，如果今天中科院院長沒有轉型能力的話，也應該重新思考是不是還有更好的人選？","臺灣無人機載具的產業發展不如中、美，起步也稍晚了一點，其實包含日本跟韓國也發現在這個領域上如果無法做到軍民的合作，很難有所成就，既然無人機、艦現在是中科院的重中之重，如果之前的弊端沒有完全排除，將不利於我們未來領域與發展。所以部長，你能不能回答一下剛剛以上這一些的種種，中科院過去的弊端，包含與軍民合作的立場上，是不是要改進、改變？部長，你來回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我想剛剛院長有提到了，像現在中科院的5家子公司都沒有了，就不再有子公司這個狀況存在，這是第一個。第二個，就是科技成果向民間的移轉，我們現在也在督促中科院要儘量移轉這些技術，我也督促軍備局要加強督導這個部分，所以我們現在不斷在研析中科院可以技轉的部分，中科院也在努力進行當中。至於其他院長已經做的一些相關改革，詳細的部分再以書面向委員報告。"],["黃委員仁：好，目前來講中科院的無人機是重中之重，轉型提升是非常重要的一環，中科院不能再像過去一樣的官僚文化作風，國防部長有責任監督，對於國人來講當然也要有交代。","接下來我想請教部長，今天的報告中提到明年陸軍將新增無人機大隊，海軍陸戰隊六六旅戰車營也將轉型為無人機營。本席在今年6月曾經就陸軍將首次成立無人機部隊提出書面質詢，指出根據美軍的經驗，無人機部隊面臨最嚴厲的挑戰在於無法完全適應戰場的轉型，它必須與傳統部隊協同任務，與傳統部隊、地面部隊能夠共同協調，但目前來講，據說還沒有，各做各的。本席希望了解國軍對於無人機部隊的相關訓練作為，不過當初給本席的回復是，陸軍表示目前只有人員操作無人機的訓練，還沒有進行到相關的戰術訓練，請參謀長回答這個問題，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：我請聯三就相關問題來回答一下，我們針對無人機有一個整體的規劃，包括由訓次室來負責相關的無人機訓練，關於作戰方面的無人機整體規劃也有一些。"],["連次長志威：我是作計室次長。跟委員報告，我們的無人機是先從作戰運用來規劃整體的構想，接著會依照不同的監偵型、攻擊型無人機，整合到我們現行的精準武器以及各軍種的制式武器，考量怎麼結合整體的作戰運用，來形成多層次的擊殺鏈。依照這樣子的作戰運用，國防部已經策頒無人機作戰運用準則，並且再交由各軍種依照其戰術任務的執行去策頒作戰運用的準則及教則，據以執行訓練。相關的訓練規劃都在各軍種的訓練班隊，以及現在成編之後的無人機大隊，各單位的無人機編組會持續向下做細部的發展。"],["黃委員仁：好，待會兒我要問你後續的進度如何？本席發現很多人在看待國防部容易產生一個誤區，以為擁有武器就代表擁有戰力，其實戰力的來源之一是如何以戰術發揮人員和武器的優勢。本席想請教無人機大隊要成立，除了飛手養成外，還要包含什麼？包括航電維護員、資料分析員和指揮官，這些人員是否已經開始著手培訓？"],["連次長志威：跟委員報告，無人機的最小編制是無人機小組，這裡面當然包含組長、監偵操作手、攻擊手，另外還有後勤操作手，所以它是一個整體的編組，至於整體編組各部的執行作為及後續的訓練，建議私下再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員仁：無人機部隊要形成一個大隊，但你們到現在都還沒有著手培訓，尤其是航電維護員、資料分析員，因為無人機在飛航當中取得許多相關資料，回到這個地方要恢復成給你們答案的資料，可是你們到現在連這個都還沒有著手，那什麼時候著手？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，事實上海軍的銳鳶無人機在您所提到的這些項目裡面，它已經是既有的編制人員，比較複雜的其實是未來MQ-9B的部分，它會給我們帶來全新的訓練功能。針對這個部分，我們初期的人員選訓已經開始進行，從明年年初開始，我們就會把種子教官送到美國去接受從航管一直到電子等等各方面的訓練，國防部都有完整的規劃。"],["黃委員仁：好，麻煩主席再給我1分鐘。無人機大隊成立在即，除了目前飛手的訓練是否已充足，也想知道各司令部針對無人機的戰術教範是否已經有跨軍種的聯戰教範？無人機是否在未來會成為戰場的主流？而讓無人機部隊形成戰力必須要有充足的準備，從基礎的平臺操作、緊急程序、安全作業，到中級的任務規劃流程、偵蒐程序，中繼鏈結管理、電磁對抗，再到高級的地面火力、空防、電子戰整合任務、即時聯絡流程等，這都是你們現在就要準備、就要著手的。該訓練的趕快去做，成立無人機大隊不是開玩笑，花了這麼多的公帑，我們應該要積極著手趕快來整合。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想你現在講的無人機大隊是指陸軍的無人機大隊，但事實上，無人機型態非常多樣，剛剛戰規司提到的MQ-9B，這是屬於空軍在運用的高高空無人機，另外有關監偵型的，不管是銳鳶或者是銳鳶二型等等的運用，本來我們就有監偵無人機的配賦及編制；陸軍無人機則是比較屬於路面操作型，這是一、二型的無人機，所以每個層級的教範都會不一樣，我們都已經陸續在進行當中。"],["黃委員仁：好，不要到時候成立的只是形式上的空殼無人機部隊，希望你們趕快著手準備，後續我會追蹤你們的進度，包括你們訓練的整個過程，下次我再來追蹤。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝黃仁委員的質詢，各位長官請回座，先喝杯水。","接下來請馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d33be08b33ed65565248629de9594d8cbe61e6bfef52f5c09392d0a82c07ca83cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:26:54 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就是說既定的改版之外它的意義到底是什麼"},{"start":129.841,"end":155.188,"text":"我想是這樣子啦不管是外界有人必須說你們是有政治上的操作不會不會絕對不會你想達到的功能是什麼第一個還是就是說因為就是科技的進步即使是說我們現在的微超率很低我們還是要做改版為什麼事實上其他的國家他改版的國家很多也是他的微超率也是很低的"},{"start":155.928,"end":160.032,"text":"這是第一點所以就說你的改版多久改版一次所以多久改版所以有委員就認為我們24年收集還是太慢了因為有的國家的還11年我覺得應該去收集大家的資料還有對我們來說多久改版一次"},{"start":175.425,"end":180.747,"text":"是恰當的那另外我們希望達到什麼樣的目的我覺得這才能夠說服大家因為每改版一次所花的經費也不少沒有錯啦委員講的沒有錯啦不過剛剛你委員在問說什麼功能第一個當然你要達到什麼樣特殊的意義啊對啦"},{"start":194.533,"end":208.136,"text":"剛剛也是在講就是說現在的科技進步得非常快所以我們要未雨綢繆所以即使是很多國家它的微潮率也很低但是它還是要改版為什麼那你還是沒有回答我你要達到什麼樣的目的總裁你簡答就好因為我今天好幾個問題我再講一個你看看我們的鈔券2000塊還有1000塊那個科技"},{"start":219.278,"end":228.845,"text":"科技是那個時候我們台灣的科技但是現在我們台灣的科技你看看我們台灣的科技已經是進步的很大了我覺得台灣科技進步你要達到什麼目的還有剛剛我剛剛在講的就是說像我們五百塊的背面那個水路 那個梅花路梅花路以前是保育動物現在就是"},{"start":238.131,"end":243.596,"text":"你那個還是設計我是意思說功能上你希望達到什麼樣的目的設計我知道環圍還有就與時定定環圍 過去也很環圍第三個就是環保環保"},{"start":252.816,"end":262.319,"text":"好 我本來期待聽到更多不一樣的答案我想基本上大概就只有這樣子而已就只有這樣要花多少經費來做改版我們要花多少經費來做改版我們每張報告寫了就是說我們每張會增加1.5塊好 總裁因為我今天要質詢的議題很多好"},{"start":275.764,"end":300.056,"text":"我再次恭喜總裁就是說我們又回到環球金融雜誌又回到把你列為A減總裁A-的總裁又回到A那這一次能夠創立這樣子再回到A-最主要原因有四個原因包括我們經濟成長表現得還不錯我們今年有達到2.1還有通膨我們控制得還不錯剛剛其他委員有質詢到我們再次"},{"start":301.437,"end":326.717,"text":"低于2%在2%跟1.65之间还有踩渐进式的货币紧缩政策第四个就是我们灵活的总体审查的一些相关的政策在里头包括赖总统也提到包括在今年国庆上他也特别提到亚英今年最新报告我们今年的成长我们经济成长率由3.3%上调到5.1%"},{"start":328.038,"end":351.716,"text":"在亞洲四小龍裡面我們也再次要上第一名我們的經濟成長也超越了中國大陸我想請問總裁就說從這幾個數據主計處上一次我問他他說我們今年年初的時候我問他他說今年經濟成長預估大概4.45%而已因為可能會有關稅不確定性的因素在那因為現在已經10月中了"},{"start":352.356,"end":370.802,"text":"所以他預估說會到5%我們央行是4.55雅營是5.10我想請問一下總裁就是說我們看雅營這個數字你會不會覺得它是過於樂觀還是說你覺得主計處是過於保守"},{"start":373.283,"end":375.566,"text":"因為每差一點 差0.5就差很多因為就是說我剛剛也有報告就是說從我們的4.55我們的數據是到8月底但是到9月10月到目前為止"},{"start":389.02,"end":399.129,"text":"總裁我問的是全年所以我想請問你對於這個數據你預估你到目前為止到9月4.5所以到年底你預估是多少所以我們年底要預估多少我們12月才會公佈所以你不能預估我們現在沒辦法"},{"start":406.716,"end":412.959,"text":"但是我跟你怎麼看你怎麼看我覺得他們不是說太樂觀而是他們收集到的一個資訊是比較完整的所以你看那你覺得亞銀的數字是怎麼樣亞銀的數據不值得參考也不是太樂觀可能他的probability我們現在只能用機率他的probability也蠻高的"},{"start":435.82,"end":440.166,"text":"但是賴總統是用亞營的數字賴總統賴總統是用亞營的數字代表他對於你們的數字是打問號的我要提醒總裁沒關係總裁我想提一下明年那我再回過頭來明年整體大家對於明年整體的經濟成長其實都"},{"start":455.965,"end":460.287,"text":"所以我們央行包括明年外界有在講說可能會雪崩式的下跌到3%以下那我們有什麼樣"},{"start":475.856,"end":500.372,"text":"因應的策略跟政策我跟委員報告這邊就是說有一些的報告說是會雪崩式的下跌我是不認同那你不要講雪崩會下跌到3%下跌第一個有很大的一個因素第一個就是說因為你的前面的基期就已經很高了所以他會下來我認為是也是合理的"},{"start":501.132,"end":517.262,"text":"那總裁我請問你的因應工具是什麼不管他最後結果是什麼不管結果是什麼不管是2%還是3%我當然不希望是3%以下但是你因應的策略跟工具到底是什麼我覺得啦我覺得所以我們的貨幣政策我們就看看我們的情況事實上我覺得假設說我們明年是3%的話我覺得3%還算是不錯的"},{"start":527.167,"end":551.723,"text":"3%不是算是很低的3%算是很好的那如果2%或2.5%的話你的因應策略是什麼我只問你說你的因應策略是什麼2.5%到3%都算不錯所以如果有3%的話你的因應策略不會出動就對了大概如果說還有3%的話我覺得如果2%或2.5%你的因應策略是什麼"},{"start":552.703,"end":555.026,"text":"那再看嘛我現在也沒辦法來回答委員的這個問題啊你的工具擺在前面你手上哪些工具事實上是清楚我們的貨幣政策跟匯率政策就是這兩個工具嘛"},{"start":567.839,"end":573.341,"text":"貨幣政策就是利息的調整或是存款準備率或是open market operation就是說一個那個總裁我希望要提早做準備因為全世界大家對於明年還不只台灣全世界明年整理經濟下修的狀況我不知道會不會連帶性的風險我不清楚"},{"start":589.185,"end":605.726,"text":"但是我覺得隨時要做好那個風險會另外剛才有其他委員講到就是說雖然CPI我們控制還不錯但是民生通膨的問題雖然是你想說低薪資所得感受特別深但是事實擺在眼前我們每一年都在講"},{"start":606.727,"end":636.04,"text":"民生通膨的問題非常的嚴重但這幾年事實上都沒有改善包括在雞蛋在肉類在素食在麵包還有外食族跟租金事實上通膨是一年比一年高所以我們才講說這是失溫的經濟失溫的體感經濟對人民對於很多大多數民眾在那個金字塔中下階段大家是生活的非常非常辛苦而且是一年比一年辛苦那總裁我們的因應策略做法是什麼"},{"start":636.56,"end":643.766,"text":"我覺得剛剛的委員 不可能不改雖然央行是看一個整體但是對於民生通膨的問題到底怎麼處理這個就是說低所得的民生的物價的持續在上升事實上沒有 是越來越穩定的你覺得是越來越穩定是越來越穩定的 是越來越下降的所以一個排骨飯"},{"start":662.881,"end":670.704,"text":"越來越高你覺得其實價格是越來越低沒有說我沒有說因為我時間已經到了你說你覺得價格是越來越穩定現在多數的民眾領到薪水他們都會認為我的薪水即便有漲幅2% 3%但是全部都被民生通膨吃掉了"},{"start":686.07,"end":714.431,"text":"这是真正民生的感受如果总裁你的感受是这样包括各部会的看法也是这样难怪现在民进党政府离所有的民意离民众实在是越来越遥远因为这就是失温的经济失温的体温经济人民是过得越来越辛苦事实上我们的薪资今年的薪资包括服务业跟那个什么服务业跟那个我们的制造业工业"},{"start":715.051,"end":743.87,"text":"他的我們的那個實質薪資是正的我知道是正的但是很多人也感受到現在民生CPI的成長所有長的薪資都被統統去掉這也是另外一個事實這也是另外一個事實所以新總裁有機會雖然你這一次再回到A-的總裁還是回到民生多走動走動了解各個民生階層的看法好不好謝謝李燕秀李委員"},{"start":744.991,"end":745.094,"text":"谢谢大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時27分）謝謝召委，可不可以請總裁？"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安。我先延續前面幾位委員對於新臺幣改版的問題，我想先就教於總裁，因為去年、前年臺灣棒球得到世界冠軍的時候，當時我還記得我有質詢我們要不要改版，因為大家對於臺灣的驕傲、臺灣之光都非常地開心，當時總裁的回應是目前沒有規劃、計畫，怎麼不到一年多的時間，馬上就說我們準備改版，改版這件事情應該是一個長期、既定性的東西，但是為什麼會這麼快速就有這樣的轉變？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，你提到我當時說我們沒有規劃要改版，我好像沒有說這一句話欸！如果說……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你認為這個是既定的。"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說我有講這一句話……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，沒關係，今天我有好幾個議題要就教於您。總裁，這是既定的計畫，好。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：在既定的計畫當中，其實有一個很重要的因素是我們希望新的新臺幣改版之後，除了設計之外，還有一個是防偽的功能，事實上，關於新臺幣防偽的功能，每一次改版我們都在講防偽的功能很重要，我們都在加強。我要請問總裁，就談現在好了，到目前為止，新臺幣有偽鈔的狀況非常多嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不高。"],["李委員彥秀：不高？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不高。"],["李委員彥秀：那我們還要再增加什麼樣的功能？我就不懂……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想那個……"],["李委員彥秀：因為每換一次新臺幣，除了既定的改版之外，它的意義到底是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子啦……"],["李委員彥秀：不管是外界批評你們有政治上的操作，或者是既定……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會、不會，絕對不會！"],["李委員彥秀：你想達到的功能是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，因為就科技的進步，即使是現在的偽鈔率很低，我們還是要做改版，為什麼？事實上其他改版的國家偽鈔率也是很低的，這是第一點。也就是你的改版……"],["李委員彥秀：那多久改版一次？"],["楊總裁金龍：有些委員就認為我們24年未改版，說實在是太慢了，因為有的國家還11年欸！"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得應該去蒐集大家的資料，還有對我們來說多久改版一次是恰當的；另外，我們希望達到什麼樣的目的，我覺得這才能夠說服大家，因為每改版一次，所花的經費也不少。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講得沒有錯啦！不過，剛剛委員在問有什麼功能？第一個，當然每次……"],["李委員彥秀：你要達到什麼樣特殊的意義啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！剛剛也在講現在的科技進步得非常快，所以我們要未雨綢繆，即使很多國家的偽鈔率也很低，但它還是要改版，為什麼？因為24年……"],["李委員彥秀：你還是沒有回答我，你要達到什麼樣的目的，請你簡答就好，因為我今天有好幾個問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：好、好！我再講一個，你看看我們的鈔券有2,000塊還有1,000塊，這是那時候臺灣的科技，但是現在你看看臺灣科技已經進步很多了，還有剛剛我……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道臺灣科技進步很多，所以你要達到什麼目的？"],["楊總裁金龍：還有我剛剛在講的，像500塊背面的梅花鹿，梅花鹿以前是保育動物，現在是……"],["李委員彥秀：那個還是設計啊！我的意思是功能上你希望達到什麼樣的目的，設計我知道啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然就是防偽嘛！還有與時俱進嘛……"],["李委員彥秀：防偽？過去也很防偽啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：第三個就是環保嘛！環保啊！"],["李委員彥秀：好，我本來期待能聽到更多不一樣的答案，我尊重。"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上大概就只有這樣子而已啦！"],["李委員彥秀：就只有這樣，我們要花多少經費來做改版？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們報告也寫了，每張會增加1.5塊。"],["李委員彥秀：好。總裁，因為我今天要質詢的議題很多。我可不可以再次恭喜總裁，環球金融雜誌把你列為「A-」總裁，又回到「A」。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：這一次能夠再回到「A-」，最主的原因有4個原因，包括我們經濟成長表現得還不錯，今年有達到2.1%，還有通膨我們控制得還不錯，剛剛其他委員有質詢到，我們再次低於2%，在2% 跟1.65%之間，還有採漸進式的貨幣緊縮政策，第四個就是靈活的總體審查政策在裡頭。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["李委員彥秀：包括賴總統在今年國慶上也特別提到亞銀今年最新的報告，我們今年的經濟成長率由3.3%上調到5.1%，在亞洲四小龍裡面我們也再次躍上第一名，我們的經濟成長也超越了中國大陸。我想請問總裁，從這幾個數據，今年年初我問主計處，他說今年經濟成長預估大概4.45%而已，因為可能會有關稅不確定性的因素存在，現在已經10月中了，所以他預估會到5%，央行是4.55%，亞銀是5.10%，我想請問一下總裁，我們看亞銀這個數字，你會不會覺得它是過於樂觀？還是你覺得主計處過於保守？因為每差0.5%，就差很多嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也有報告，我們的數據4.55%是到8月底，但是到9月、10月，到目前為止，我們的……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我問的是全年，我想請問你對於這個數據，到目前為止，你的預估到9月是4.55%，所以到年底你預估是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：年底預估是多少，我們12月才會公布。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你不能預估喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在沒辦法，但是我跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：那你怎麼看主計處的數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得他們不是太樂觀，而是他們蒐集到的資訊是比較完整的，所以你看看很多……"],["李委員彥秀：那你覺得亞銀的數字是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：亞銀的數據，我覺得……"],["李委員彥秀：不值得參考？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是喔！"],["李委員彥秀：他太樂觀？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在只能用機率，他的probability也蠻高的。"],["李委員彥秀：但賴總統是用亞銀的數字欸！賴總統是用亞銀的數字，代表他對於你們的數字是打問號，我要提醒總裁。好，沒關係，總裁。我再回過頭來，大家對於明年整體的經濟成長其實都不看好。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：主計總處預估只有2.55%，明年整體經濟是下修的狀況，當然還包括美國關稅的不確定因素實在是太高了！所以央行，包括明年外界也有在講可能會雪崩式下跌到3%以下，我們有什麼樣因應的策略跟政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，這邊有一些報告說會雪崩式下跌，我是不認同。"],["李委員彥秀：好，你不要講雪崩式下跌，而是會下跌到3%。"],["楊總裁金龍：下跌有很大的因素，第一個，因為前面的基期已經很高了，所以它會下來我認為也是合理的，因為基期的因素嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我請問你，你的因應工具是什麼？不管它最後結果是什麼……"],["楊總裁金龍：然後第二個……"],["李委員彥秀：不管它結果是什麼，不管是2%還是3%，我當然不希望是3%以下，但是你因應的策略及工具到底是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的貨幣政策就是看看我們的情況，事實上，假設我們明年是3%的話，我覺得3%還算是不錯的，3%不算是很低的，算是很好的，我們的貨幣政策就是要……"],["李委員彥秀：如果2%或2.5%的話，你的因應策略是什麼？我只問你因應策略是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：2.5%到3%都算不錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以如果有3%的話，你的因應策略不會出動就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果還有3%的話，我覺得……"],["李委員秀：好，如果2%或2.5%，你的因應策略是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：那就再看嘛！我現在也沒辦法回答委員這個問題，12月……"],["李委員彥秀：你的工具擺在前面，你手上有哪些工具事實上是清楚的吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的貨幣政策及匯率政策就是這兩個工具嘛！貨幣政策就是利息的調整或是存款準備率，或是open market operations等，我們的工具就是這樣子。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我希望要提早做準備，因為全世界還不只臺灣，大家對於明年整體經濟下修的狀況，我不知道會不會有連帶性的風險，我不清楚！但是我覺得隨時要做好風險的管控。"],["楊總裁金龍：會。"],["李委員彥秀：另外，剛才有其他委員講到，雖然CPI我們控制得還不錯，但是民生通膨的問題，雖然你講低薪資所得者感受特別深，但是事實擺在眼前，我們每一年都在講民生通膨的問題非常嚴重，這幾年事實上都沒有改善，包括在雞蛋、肉類、速食、麵包，還有外食族及租金等，事實上通膨是一年比一年高，所以我們才講這是失溫的體感經濟，對於大多數民眾在金字塔中、下階段，大家生活得非常非常辛苦，而且是一年比一年辛苦，總裁，我們的因應策略、作法是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得剛剛委員……"],["李委員彥秀：不可能不改，雖然央行是看整體，但是對於民生通膨的問題到底怎麼處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛委員在講低所得的民生物價持續上升，事實上沒有，是愈來愈穩定的。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得是愈來愈穩定喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是愈來愈穩定的、是愈來愈下降的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以一個排骨飯愈來愈高，你覺得其實價格是愈來愈低，但是總裁，因為我的時間已經到了……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我沒有說……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，因為我的時間已經到了，你說你覺得價格是愈來愈穩定，但是我要提醒你……"],["楊總裁金龍：是愈來愈穩定啊！"],["李委員彥秀：現在多數的民眾領到薪水，他們都會認為我的薪水即便有漲幅2%、3%，但是全部都被民生通膨吃掉了，這是真正民生的感受，如果總裁你的感受是這樣，包括各部會的看法也是這樣，難怪現在民進黨政府離所有民意、離民眾實在是愈來愈遙遠，因為這就是失溫的體感經濟，人民是過得愈來愈辛苦。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，事實上我們今年的薪資，包括服務業、製造業及工業，實質薪資是正的，而且都比前幾年還高。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道是正的，但是很多人感受到現在民生CPI的成長，所有漲的薪資都被通膨吃掉，這也是另外一個事實……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，現在薪資已經扣掉了，實質薪資已經……"],["李委員彥秀：這也是另外一個事實，所以雖然你這次再回到「A-」總裁，請總裁有機會還是回到民生多走動走動，了解各個民生階層的看法，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝，我會接受委員的建議。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員，總裁請回。","接下來請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d36de73a47e7253847cbd78a287304ef9f61e6bfef52f5c0937a4feae0cd811d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:23:24 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我們請部長我們再請陳部長我也好部長 我想要了解就是說現在為什麼10月10號台中的養豬場的豬隻出現死亡之後"},{"start":27.441,"end":35.986,"text":"然後他們沒有第一時間做相對應的處理我們的SOP到底是怎麼訂的"},{"start":37.359,"end":65.941,"text":"這也是我們為什麼這個會啟動疫調的非常重要的一個詢問的地方因為一般出現異常死亡的時候地方政府動保處人員要第一時間去看那有可能是一般的疾病或是管理的不當那也有可能有其他的病方但是如果有異常死亡的話應該要更敏感的去檢測啦所以依照我們一般的SOP是如果有豬場"},{"start":67.462,"end":79.316,"text":"出現了死亡而且是異常的死亡我跟委員報告 異常的死亡齁如果是以200頭以上到500頭以下齁他只要租場裡面有百分之"},{"start":81.144,"end":101.66,"text":"3%的话我们就叫异常那异常的部分我们就会地方政府就会去去查嘛都有一定的标准所以异常死亡不是随便讲的这个SOP都有定的非常清楚嘛所以到底到了什么程度一定要去做通报这个你们也讲得非常清楚嘛我觉得我们这一次虽然"},{"start":102.14,"end":120.333,"text":"要疫調可是我們要把重新這個SOP拿出來檢討到底是哪一個環節出了問題然後呢好10月10號台中養豬場豬隻出現死亡之後然後呢台中市政府10月14號是有去訪視的喔結果訪視沒有採樣"},{"start":125.294,"end":154.276,"text":"我想这个东西就是我们一定要去了解的就是当初没有采样是事主不同意采样还是当初是事主可以不同意采样吗不可以如果说动保人员觉得应该要采样的时候事主不得拒绝所以这个部分也是我们要去了解的对这就是我们要了解的事主是不能拒绝的所以这个关键点我觉得这里有两个关键点这也是这个案子发生之后我们希望在未来各县市"},{"start":155.217,"end":178.717,"text":"一定要警惕就是說10月10號出現了死亡為什麼你們沒有去做相對應的動作因為我們有說嘛 異常異常有一個標準到底他是不是有到達異常好10月14號為什麼去到現場訪視沒有採樣這很嚴重耶到底是因為"},{"start":179.938,"end":198.262,"text":"施主不同意可是施主是不能不同意啊因為你已經發現了要去採樣而且有問題了那就有強硬的動作嘛我們的反應都已經定的非常清楚好之後沒有採樣一直到10月20累計死亡到117頭"},{"start":201.417,"end":210.205,"text":"那麼台中市政府才採樣送檢中央你看這當中多久 十天十天耶"},{"start":211.4,"end":239.719,"text":"这是非常严重所以这10天到底是哪一个环节松了我觉得我们要把这个案件变成是一个非常重要我们以后警惕其他县市政府一个很重要的关键是的我想透过这样的一个很清楚的厘清以后那一定有一些必须改进的然后你们就化为新的一个作为然后会通报到通讯到其他的县市政府是"},{"start":240.619,"end":266.392,"text":"這才是最重要然後到了10月21號中央收到檢體並檢驗呈陽性你們就開始動作了對不對就開始動作了好包括我們馬上召開應變的措施會議然後馬上要求要把豬隻整個移動作為管制他到底他的整個足跡到哪裡"},{"start":267.692,"end":293.724,"text":"他的株枝再運到哪裡都要整個管制然後也進行了撲殺那我要問部長那請問我們現在掌控因為畢竟有20天10天 有10天這樣的一個時間空窗期有10天好 這10天我們有掌控這些株枝的所有軌跡嗎"},{"start":296.365,"end":315.951,"text":"有 我們所有的因為我們是以車追廠以廠在追車那從化製車的還有運租車的這些軌跡它整個大範圍的大概關聯廠有33廠那大部分都在台東地區然後比較接近的跟這廠有直接關係的就是有去買租的這個廠"},{"start":317.051,"end":337.88,"text":"沒有異常然後有載運的這個場沒有異常方圓三公里的沒有特別的死亡異常所以現在我們有掌控到方圓三公里的周邊是沒有異常的他的軌跡是沒有異常的那但是還有一些我們目前還在做疫調疫調在了解在追蹤當中33場我們預計這33場多久可以給我們民眾一個安心我想我們預計是在"},{"start":346.164,"end":361.356,"text":"第一個就是五天之內我們有一個初步的結果但是因為有一些潛伏期我們也不能掉以輕心但是我們在前進的應變所裡面每一天都有工作會議看進度然後會跟外界做記者會對外說明"},{"start":362.757,"end":389.05,"text":"我們一定要讓這個訊息完整的對外說明讓民眾來非常公開透明每一次我們有什麼樣的訊息我們就對外因為這不僅是我們食的安全還有我們整個整個豬隻產業的問題所以這牽扯到兩個層面所以我們一定要把它很公開告訴大家現在的狀況到達什麼樣的程度"},{"start":391.491,"end":414.496,"text":"那么我们现在也已经拉高了是不是我们整个一个circle控制的circle是15天是不是我们也是把这样的区块定为15天但是5天5天做一个循环报告对我们15天是因为它有可能的潜伏期所以我们定15天但是我们每5天做一个观察那观察到"},{"start":415.846,"end":444.722,"text":"可能第二個五天的時候如果說我們的疫調有更完整的疫調它沒有對外擴散的風險的時候那我們也許有機會先做部分的解除或是全部的解除這個我們後續才能夠判斷對 因為我們必須如果當我們資訊公開的話然後我們把整個位階拉高然後不斷的一個區段一個區段跟民眾報告跟我們的租资產業報告我相信大家才會安心"},{"start":445.382,"end":462.669,"text":"尤其這一段時間我相信這樣的訊息傳出在我們的產業在我們的食的安全大家都是放大眼睛在看所以我覺得部長這個部分是我們的我們一定要給民眾安心的一個責任我們一定把相關的資訊一定隨時對外說明"},{"start":464.87,"end":494.45,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情有兩個環節一個就是為什麼在10月10號發生的時候沒有直接通報而且在10月14號沒有去採樣到了10月20才做採樣把整個檢體送中央這個一定要查而且這個絕對是未來我們給各縣市的一個非常好的一個樣板跟警惕大家不能再犯"},{"start":494.813,"end":494.919,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":495.8,"end":522.942,"text":"這個一件事就已經搞得這樣子人仰馬翻大家嚇死了所以這個是絕對不能再犯這是一個問題第二個問題是我們整個資訊公開透明把我們整個足跡這個有問題的豬支廠它相關的足跡整個把它疫調的清清楚楚報告所有的人民我相信人民就會安心謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我想要了解一件事情，在10月10號臺中有養豬場的豬隻死亡之後，為什麼他們沒有在第一時間做相對應的處理？我們的SOP到底是怎麼定的？"],["陳部長駿季：這也是我們在啟動疫調後所詢問的一個非常重要的問題，因為一般在出現異常死亡的時候，地方政府動保處人員要在第一時間去看，有可能是一般的疾病或管理不當，也有可能是因為其他的病，但是如果有異常死亡的話，應該要更敏感的去檢測。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以依照我們一般的SOP，如果有豬場出現了死亡，而且是異常的死亡……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果是200頭以上、500頭以下的豬場，只要裡面有3%死亡，我們就叫異常的死亡，那地方政府就會去查，都有一定的標準，所以異常死亡不是隨便講的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，這個SOP都有定得非常清楚嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以到底到什麼程度就一定要去做通報，這個你們也講得非常清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得我們這一次要疫調，可是我們也要重新把這個SOP拿出來檢討，看看到底是哪一個環節出了問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：在10月10號臺中養豬場的豬隻死亡之後，臺中市政府在10月14號有去訪視，結果只有訪視、沒有採樣。"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個東西就是我們疫調要去了解的，當初沒有採樣是因為飼主不同意採樣還是……"],["陳委員亭妃：飼主可以不同意採樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不可以，如果動保處人員覺得應該要採樣，飼主不得拒絕。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分也是我們要去了解的。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們的法令有規定啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，這就是我們要了解的。"],["陳委員亭妃：飼主是不能拒絕的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得這裡有兩個關鍵點，在這個案子發生之後，我們希望未來各縣市一定要警惕，在10月10號出現了死亡，為什麼你們沒有去做相對應的動作？因為我們說異常有一個標準，到底是不是有達到異常？在10月14號去現場訪視，為什麼沒有採樣？這很嚴重欸！是因為飼主不同意嗎？可是飼主不能不同意啊！因為你已經發現了，要去採樣，而且是有問題的，那就要有強硬的動作，我們的法令都已經規定得非常清楚。好，之後沒有採樣，一直到10月20號，累計死亡117頭，臺中市政府才採樣然後把檢體送中央，你看這當中歷時多久？10天欸！這是非常的嚴重，這10天到底是哪一個環節鬆了？我覺得我們要把這個案件變成是一個非常重要的關鍵，我們以後用來警惕其他縣市政府。"],["陳部長駿季：是的，我想透過這樣一個很清楚的釐清以後，一定有一些必須改進的地方，然後我們就化為一個新的作為，然後會通令到其他的縣市政府。"],["陳委員亭妃：是，這才是最重要的。然後在10月21號中央收到檢體檢驗後呈陽性，你們就開始動作了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：包括馬上召開應變措施的會議，然後馬上要求要對豬隻移動進行管制，調查整個足跡到哪裡，還有豬隻載運到哪裡，都要整個管制，然後也進行了撲殺。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那我要問部長，因為畢竟有10天這樣的一段時間，空窗期有10天，我們有掌控這些豬隻在這10天內的所有軌跡嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有，因為我們是以車在追場、以場在追車，從化製車還有運豬車的這些軌跡查出整個大範圍的關聯場有33場，大部分都在臺中地區，然後比較接近的、跟這個場有直接關係的，就是有去買豬的這個場並沒有異常，然後有載運的這個場沒有異常，在方圓3公里裡面沒有特別的異常死亡。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以現在我們有掌控到方圓3公里的周邊沒有異常。"],["陳部長駿季：對，沒有異常的死亡。"],["陳委員亭妃：軌跡是沒有異常的？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是還有一些我們目前還在……"],["陳部長駿季：還在做疫調。"],["陳委員亭妃：做疫調，就是在了解、在追蹤當中。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：有33場嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們預計這33場多久可以查完然後讓我們民眾安心？"],["陳部長駿季：我們預計在5天之內有一個初步的結果，但是因為會有潛伏期，所以我們也不能掉以輕心，我們在前進應變所裡面每一天都有工作會議來討論進度，然後會開記者會對外說明，我們一定要對外說明完整的訊息，讓民眾來……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，要非常公開透明，每一次我們有什麼樣的訊息，我們就對外說明，因為這不僅是我們食的安全，還有我們整個豬隻產業的問題，這牽扯到兩個層面，所以我們一定要很公開的告訴大家現在的狀況達到什麼樣的程度。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在也已經拉高了，是不是？我們整個控制的circle是15天嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：是不是我們也把這樣的區塊定為15天，但是5天、5天做一個循環報告？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們定15天是因為有一段潛伏期，所以我們定15天，但是我們每5天做一個觀察，可能在觀察到第二個5天的時候，如果我們有更完整的疫調，並沒有對外擴散的風險，那我們也許有機會先做部分的解除或是全部的解除，這個我們後續才能夠判斷。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，如果我們資訊公開的話，然後我們把整個位階拉高，不斷地一個區段、一個區段的跟民眾報告，還有跟豬隻產業報告，我相信大家才會安心。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：尤其在這段時間這樣的訊息傳出來，關係到我們的產業、我們食的安全，所以大家都是睜大眼睛來看。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們一定盡到讓民眾安心的責任。"],["陳部長駿季：會的，我們一定隨時對外說明相關的資訊。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得這件事情有兩個環節有問題，一個就是在10月10號發生的時候沒有直接通報，而且在10月14號沒有採樣，到了10月20號才採樣然後把整個檢體送中央，這個一定要查。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且這是未來我們給各縣市的一個樣板跟警惕，絕對不能再犯，因為這件事已經搞得人仰馬翻，大家都嚇死了，所以絕對不能再犯，這是第一個問題。第二個問題就是我們整個資訊要公開透明，把整個足跡，這個有問題的豬場相關的足跡整個疫調得清清楚楚，報告所有的人民，我相信人民就會安心，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們一定會，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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我們請央行楊總裁總裁 我想大家一直關心新台幣鈔券改版的一個規劃央行在業務報告中提到將進行的改版的規劃會成立一個臨時性的任務單位"},{"start":29.015,"end":52.22,"text":"新台幣鈔券主題諮詢委員會來廣伸各界的意見並建立公民參與的機制那已決定改版的主題然後一旦任務完成就會解散所以我想請問總裁我們這一次的鈔券新台幣我們的報告是講已經虧為24年了所以現在要啟動改版"},{"start":56.38,"end":77.158,"text":"我想了解是所有的面额的横式超卷都要全部改版吗是流通的五种这五种都要改吗现在就是说我们预计是这样子但是我们一步一步的时候这中间是不是会有一些的变数现在还不晓得预计是这样"},{"start":77.298,"end":83.92,"text":"所以不一定是五種全部會改預計是這樣子其實總裁我們來看一下其實100元的這個面額的這個券鈔是沒有錯是在這個89年首次印刷90年發行現在24年了500元的也是在89年首次印刷89年發行"},{"start":98.826,"end":113.31,"text":"但是他在民國93年有做改版改成第二版新版是在94年發行那1000元是在88年首次印刷89年發行93年也改二版這個在94年發行"},{"start":116.852,"end":134.453,"text":"200元是在90年90年改版 91年發行那2000元的是在90年首次印刷 91年發行所以我們來看我們目前鈔券的流通性"},{"start":135.956,"end":149.623,"text":"以100元 500元還有1000元的流通性最高200元的還有2000元的它的流通性是不是就偏低對 200元的是最低 2000元的還好啦"},{"start":155.287,"end":173.998,"text":"2000元的還好其實我們觀察就是其實我們200還有2000元的大概都是在逢年過節的時候大家才會去換市面上使用的也會比較多反正每一種鈔券也是五種顏色所以我們稱它為五色鈔五色鈔只有在我們逢年過節"},{"start":183.504,"end":203.639,"text":"包紅包的時候我們才會去使用到所以我是建議 這我的建議200塊跟2000塊的這個是不是未來在你們在資訊文會在研究的時候 在討論的時候為了節省成本這兩種是不是可以不用改"},{"start":205.28,"end":226.152,"text":"流通性低那這委員 我們就把它記下來你可以考量一下另外 剛剛也提到我們新版的江山卓國際間的綠色卷鈔的一個發行趨勢採用更環保的原物料並強化綠色製程更符合ESG永續發展的目標"},{"start":227.333,"end":243.247,"text":"至於硬幣我們因為這個數量多價值低改版不具效益則不考慮改這個當然我們也認同那剛才我也提了一下就是說我們實際上就是整個券超的改版我剛才聽到郭委員他有說一個統計"},{"start":244.557,"end":262.334,"text":"那是不是这个现在世界上的主要国家他的卷叉的改版都是大概就是都是你刚才提到16年16年就改吗对有的我们在这边讲的有的11年就改了有的16年在这边有的是20年有的21年"},{"start":264.456,"end":279.847,"text":"23年所以我們24年算短了不是為了政策上的考量澳洲也是24年剛才因為一直提到說這是為了政策上的考量沒有 不會為了因應棒球經典賽不會如果說因應棒球經典賽我們就不會做那個什麼紀念幣了"},{"start":281.649,"end":291.979,"text":"是不是總裁我們希望不要有政策上的考量說為了這個去配合什麼轉型正義不會不會不會建設畢竟已經大家使用那麼多年了是是是蠻習慣的是如果是為了因為這個符合國際的潮流因為這個時間也用滿久了想要用新版的去改版"},{"start":300.467,"end":315.677,"text":"符合ESG的這個永續發展的目標我想這個當然或者綠色的強化綠色的製程這個我想大家是還可以接受的是…謝謝…謝謝委員其實我們現在最主要我們要去關心的就是它的主題是什麼對"},{"start":317.455,"end":345.012,"text":"目前有沒有規劃央行有沒有初步的規劃就是你未來一千元的我們現在這個一千元的或者五百元的或者一百元的有沒有初步規劃它的主題是什麼我想我們這個就是說為什麼我們會組成一個諮詢委員會的原因也是在這裡但是央行到現在沒有初步的規劃我們還沒有我們今天來報跟財委會報告以後我們就立即來成立"},{"start":345.732,"end":359.426,"text":"是 就來推動總裁現在就是我們看到有就是棒球當然是這個經典賽這個主題是我們現在看到100元的實際上就是那個我們的少棒選手的是100元是國父講錯了那個500元是我們的少棒國手的對"},{"start":367.974,"end":382.309,"text":"所以這一次我們再如果改版500元的會改嗎我在想我跟委員報告只要講到這裡的時候我才跟委員報告一下就是說我們500塊我們會改"},{"start":383.951,"end":388.975,"text":"但是至于是不是会改成怎么样要改成经典赛的吗因为它的主题就棒球但是对了那是正面包括它的背面背面你看看就是说我们500块一定要改为什么呢我们的500块的背面它是梅花路梅花路以前是保育动物"},{"start":409.537,"end":434.525,"text":"保育的所以我們才列入這個鈔券但是現在梅花路我記得現在就說梅花路都已經環值太多了而且去侵犯到那個什麼農作物所以我的一個想法就是說既然500元的券鈔要蓋本來他的正面也是哨棒國手是不是你就要把這一部分500元的就主題去偏向於說設計城市跟棒球有關的"},{"start":436.479,"end":451.114,"text":"我想諮詢委員會會來決定另外我想了解就是說我們這個整個諮詢委員會大概會招募哪些成員這個成員我來請我們的發行局局長來跟你打呼好嗎"},{"start":452.802,"end":478.024,"text":"是跟委員報告我們大概會請例如說生態的專家科技的專家文化界的代表或是體育的專家代表等等這個是大概人數有多少就各行各業你們都會去領選我們大概初步規劃大概會有十幾位十幾位那領選的機制由誰來去領選他們是就我們央行嗎是的由央行來領選"},{"start":479.685,"end":495.303,"text":"那最后决定招票这个我想还是很关心那个主题因为现在一直谈到说会这个有公民参与的机制公民参与的机制那我们又是用什么样的方式来进行公民参与是用投票吗还是什么方式啊"},{"start":496.494,"end":523.486,"text":"我們就會賦予這個資訊委員會委員來決定怎麼樣來做這個公民參與例如說網路的調查或是說書面的問卷等等但是你要做這些你初步都會有一個規劃就是那個主題是什麼你應該都會設計出來吧才去做這個公民參與的一個機制還是說你們一開始就是主題完全沒有讓公民去做一個設計是怎麼樣"},{"start":525.487,"end":542.905,"text":"跟委員報告我們的概念是說請諮詢委員會能夠提出例如十幾個主題是然後給這一個公民來票選這是就是請諮詢委員會來執行這件事情然後做最後的建議這樣"},{"start":544.577,"end":556.004,"text":"所以還是諮詢委員會成立之後我們初步還是會把主題做一個相關的一個提出來再去透過公民參與的機制去決定是怎麼樣的一個主題"},{"start":557.714,"end":582.708,"text":"就大概模式是這樣啦確定喔 確定是這樣啦對啦 大概模式是這樣啦不過這個現在是剛好要推的過程嘛那這中間會有做那兩年半一定會就把它設計出來對 就說這個process呢大概就是說這個process如果確定了以後那這個大概就是兩年半就要兩年半 走兩年半整個設計的過程要兩年半"},{"start":583.342,"end":605.096,"text":"不是設計的不用啊還是就是兩年半之內就會全部把它完成就會開始發行關於委員報告就是說我們要主題要確定之後這兩年半並不是包含去確定主題的時間那決定主題要多少時間那還要看這個進行的順不順利這樣"},{"start":606.377,"end":609.48,"text":"我剩下最後幾秒鐘再請問一下我們2025年我國的經濟穩健成長上半年是成長6.45%下半年預估是2.51%全年平均大概4.55%"},{"start":626.457,"end":650.929,"text":"那央行這個預估的通膨率在9月就今年9月大概今年9月已經就預估就估出來的大概1.25%所以我們物價上漲的壓力不大所以在這個我們經濟看起來成長率是蠻穩定的但是物價卻反而下降我看到國外日本央行"},{"start":651.809,"end":674.121,"text":"他考量關稅對經濟與物價影響是不確定性 人高所以在五月 六月 七月及九月均決意維持他們的政策利率不變惟若關稅不確定下降 薪資成長與通膨之良性循環符合預期他們要持升息的一個立場 這是日本"},{"start":675.181,"end":704.661,"text":"中國大陸經濟成長趨緩通膨低迷所以中國人民銀行5月降息降準並運用多樣的政策工具促進經濟及物價回升預期他們的貨幣政策持續的寬鬆所以要請教總裁我們的央行為了促進我們的經濟及物價的穩定回升會採取哪些政策讓我們的物價及匯率持續的穩定"},{"start":705.482,"end":709.265,"text":"我想我們在九月份的禮監事會裡面我們會還是持續的觀察第一個我們就持續的觀察就是說美國的關稅政策的不確定性它的發展會怎麼樣還有各個國家它的一個匯率政策的走向是如何"},{"start":727.643,"end":729.585,"text":"基本上就台灣來看的話基本上我們的經濟成長都是穩健我們的物價雖然就是說9月份是1.2幾不過整個來講的話還是1.771到9月份所以我們的利率還是會"},{"start":745.644,"end":747.166,"text":"我想這個還不會因為我們穩健我們的物價是這樣子的話大概升息的機會是不會是不高的升息的機會是不高的以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":774,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時14分）謝謝主席。請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員思銘：因為大家很關心新臺幣鈔券改版的規劃，央行在業務報告中提到將進行改版的規劃，會成立一個臨時性的任務單位──新臺幣鈔券主題諮詢委員會，廣徵各界意見並建立公民參與機制，以決定改版的主題，一旦任務完成就會解散。我想請問總裁，有關這一次新臺幣的鈔券改版，你們的報告說已經睽違24年……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是！"],["林委員思銘：所以現在要啟動改版。我想了解是所有面額的橫式鈔券都要改版嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：是5種，就是現在流通的這5種都要改嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在我們預計是這樣子，但是一步一步推動的時候，中間是不是會有一些變數，現在還不曉得。"],["林委員思銘：預計是這樣子，不一定是全部5種都要改？"],["楊總裁金龍：預計是這樣子。"],["林委員思銘：總裁，我們來看一下，沒有錯，100元面額的券鈔是在89年首次印刷，90年發行，距離現在24年了；500元的也是在89年首次印刷，89年發行，但是在民國93年有改版，改成第二版，新版在94年發行；1,000元的是在88年首次印刷，89年發行，93年也改成二版，在94年發行；200元的是在90年改版，91年發行；2,000元的是在90年首次印刷，91年發行。我們來看目前鈔券的流通性，以100元、500元及1,000元的流通性最高，200元及2,000元的流通性是不是就偏低？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，200元的最低，2,000元的還好。"],["林委員思銘：2,000元的還好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，還好。"],["林委員思銘：其實據我們的觀察，200元的和2,000元的大概都是在逢年過節的時候大家才會去換，市面上使用的也會比較多，反正每種鈔券也是5種顏色嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們稱之為五色鈔，五色鈔只有在我們逢年過節包紅包的時候才會使用到。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的建議是，未來你們在諮詢委員會研究、討論的時候，為了節省成本，200塊跟2,000塊這兩種是不是可以不用改？因為流通性低，這是我的建議。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，這是委員的建議，我們就記下來。"],["林委員思銘：你們可以考量一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：另外，央行也提到新版將參酌國際間綠色鈔券的發行趨勢，採用更環保的原物料，並強化綠色製程，更符合ESG永續發展的目標；至於硬幣，因為數量多、價值低，改版不具效益，則不考慮改，當然，我們也認同。剛才我也提了一下，實際上整個券鈔的改版，剛才聽到郭委員有說一個統計，是不是現在世界上主要國家的券鈔改版，就像你剛剛提的，大概都是16年，是16年就改嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，以我們在這邊講的國家來看，有的11年就改了、有的16年、有的是20年、有的是21年、23年到24年……"],["林委員思銘：所以我們24年算短的，不是為了政策上的考量？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，澳洲也是24年。"],["林委員思銘：剛才一直提到是為了政策上的考量，因為去年一直講……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不會。"],["林委員思銘：為了因應棒球經典賽的勝利去改……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，如果是為了因應棒球經典賽，我們就不會做紀念幣了，是不是？我們就不會有那種紀念幣。"],["林委員思銘：好，總裁，我們希望不要有政策上的考量，說為了去配合什麼轉型正義……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會，絕對不會。"],["林委員思銘：因為券鈔畢竟大家使用那麼多年了，也滿習慣的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：如果是為了符合國際的潮流，時間也用滿久的，想推出新版去改版，符合ESG永續發展的目標，並強化綠色的製程，我想大家是還可以接受的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：其實我們現在最主要關心的就是它的主題是什麼。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員思銘：目前有沒有規劃？央行有沒有初步的規劃，就是未來1,000元的、500元的或者100元的，有沒有初步規劃主題是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：為什麼我們會組成一個諮詢委員會的原因也在這裡。"],["林委員思銘：央行到現在沒有初步的規劃？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還沒有，我們今天來跟財委會報告以後就立即成立、推動。"],["林委員思銘：總裁，棒球經典賽當然是一個主題，我們現在看到100元的上面是國父，500的是少棒國手。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以這次如果改版，500元的會改嗎？因為它本身就跟棒球相關。"],["楊總裁金龍：只要想到這裡的時候，我才跟委員報告一下，就是500塊的我們會改，至於是不是會改成怎麼樣，不曉得，但是……"],["林委員思銘：要改成經典賽的嗎？它的主題就是棒球啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，那是正面，包括它的背面，就是500塊的一定要改，為什麼呢？我們500塊的背面是梅花鹿，梅花鹿以前是保育動物，所以我們才列入鈔券，但是我記得現在梅花鹿都已經繁殖太多了，而且侵害到農作物。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我的想法是，既然500元的券鈔要改，本來它的正面也是少棒國手，是不是500元的主題偏向於設計成跟棒球有關的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想諮詢委員會會來決定。"],["林委員思銘：好。另外，我想了解諮詢委員會大概會召募哪些成員？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於成員，我請發行局局長跟您答復，好嗎？"],["林委員思銘：好。"],["鄧局長延達：跟委員報告，我們大概會請例如生態的專家、科技的專家、文化界的代表或是體育的專家代表等等。"],["林委員思銘：大概人數有多少？各行各業你們都會去遴選？"],["鄧局長延達：是，我們初步規劃大概會有十幾位。"],["林委員思銘：遴選的機制，由誰去遴選他們？是央行嗎？"],["鄧局長延達：是的。"],["林委員思銘：由央行來遴選。最後決定鈔票……我還是很關心那個主題，因為現在一直談到有公民參與的機制。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員思銘：你們是用什麼樣的方式進行公民參與？是用投票嗎？還是什麼方式？"],["鄧局長延達：我們會賦予諮詢委員會委員來決定怎麼樣做公民參與，例如網路的調查或書面的問卷等等。"],["林委員思銘：但是你要做這些，初步就會有一個規劃，就是那個主題是什麼，你應該都會設計出來，才去做公民參與的機制，還是你們一開始就是主題完全沒有，讓公民去做設計？是怎麼樣？"],["鄧局長延達：跟委員報告，我們的概念是請諮詢委員會能夠提出例如十幾個主題給公民來票選，就是請諮詢委員會來執行這件事情、做最後的建議。"],["林委員思銘：所以諮詢委員會成立之後，初步還是會把相關的主題提出來，再透過公民參與的機制決定是什麼樣的主題？"],["鄧局長延達：是。"],["林委員思銘：就是大概模式是這樣？"],["鄧局長延達：大概模式是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：確定是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，大概模式是這樣，不過現在剛好是要推的過程，這中間會做怎麼樣的……"],["林委員思銘：兩年半一定會設計出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：就是這個process如果確定了以後，大概就是兩年半左右。"],["林委員思銘：就是兩年半，走兩年半？整個設計的過程要兩年半？"],["楊總裁金龍：設計的不用。"],["林委員思銘：就是兩年半之內就會全部完成、就會開始發行？"],["鄧局長延達：跟委員報告，我們主題要確定之後，這兩年半並不是包含確定主題的時間。決定主題要多少時間，那還要看進行得順不順利。"],["林委員思銘：好。剩下最後幾秒鐘，再請問一下，2025年我國經濟穩健成長，上半年成長6.45%，下半年預估是2.51%，全年平均大概4.55%，央行預估的通膨率在今年9月就估出來了，大概1.25%，所以我們物價上漲的壓力不大，經濟成長率看起來是滿穩定的，但是物價卻反而下降。"],["鄧局長延達：是。"],["林委員思銘：我看到國外，日本央行考量關稅對經濟與物價影響之不確定性仍高，所以在5月、6月、7月及9月均決議維持他們的政策利率不變，惟若關稅不確定下降，薪資成長與通膨之良性循環符合預期，他們要持升息的立場，這是日本。中國大陸經濟成長趨緩、通膨低迷，所以中國人民銀行5月降息降準，並運用多樣的政策工具，促進經濟及物價回升，預期他們的貨幣政策持續寬鬆。所以要請教總裁，央行為了促進經濟及物價的穩定回升，會採取哪些政策讓我們的物價及匯率持續穩定？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想在9月份的理監事會裡面，還是會持續觀察。第一個，我們會持續觀察美國關稅政策的不確定性發展會怎麼樣，還有各個國家匯率政策的走向是如何，基本上就臺灣來看的話，經濟成長都是穩健，物價雖然在9月份是一點二幾，不過整個來講，1到9月份還是有1.77%……"],["林委員思銘：所以我們的利率還是會穩定維持，沒有降息或者升息的情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個還不會發生，因為我們穩健、我們的物價是這樣子的話，大概升息的機會是不高的，以上。"],["林委員思銘：好、好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢。"],["主席（林委員思銘）：接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d393c2637b63f5d93f8c2d94e6d34c5cc961e6bfef52f5c09316d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:09:14 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那這部分也請我們國防部跟我們情報單位能夠持續的掌握了解這個解放軍內部情形及相關的動態這應該是對我們國防部最為重要的一個部分那另外在我們這個新式的武器籌貨方面"},{"start":166.127,"end":193.1,"text":"我們首批的海馬士多管火箭系統以及M1A2T戰車都在去年運離台灣其中海馬士已經在7月正式成軍但是在戰車的部分只有公開實彈射擊的操演我想請教部長第一個M1A2T作戰單位的成軍我們是否已經有掌握到確切的時間點"},{"start":195.021,"end":215.94,"text":"我們第一個贏的這個陳軍的典禮是我們會在10月31號因為他在接受這個戰力車運之後那正式陳軍在10月31號會舉行一個陳軍典禮戰車的部分M1A2就是10月31號對"},{"start":217.822,"end":241.531,"text":"好 那另外我們在7月份戰車實彈射擊當天有靜態的展示我們衰兵用的穿甲彈當時引發一陣討論但是在美國所公布的軍售方案當中並沒有這款彈藥我想請教我們部長國防部在後續是否會有另外購得這款彈藥"},{"start":242.751,"end":251.111,"text":"的這個可能還是已經在構置其他的這個穿甲彈考量或是相關的規劃"},{"start":252.265,"end":278.605,"text":"向委員報告我們在這個瑞捷專案裡面隨裝我們也構置了有六型的包含到這些高爆彈還有一吻脫殼的穿甲彈那這些都依照我們的這個交裝的期程來實施交運那也都有到已經到隨著要成軍的單位也都入庫了"},{"start":279.085,"end":289.318,"text":"那在后续的部分因为还会有社讯上面的需求不管是练习弹或是实弹穿甲弹也都有纳入后续的后围的持续采购规划"},{"start":291.984,"end":308.53,"text":"我們也看到國防部預算在去年底所提出的不對稱作戰的特別預算將會分七年來編列但實際的規模應該還沒有定案由於特別預算會有多項軍購同步進行我們對美軍"},{"start":314.879,"end":332.728,"text":"對美國的軍購又高度的仰賴美國政府的參與針對這個部分我想還是請教部長美國政府目前處於停擺的狀況什麼時候會恢復運作還不曉得這件事情對我們軍購案的執行有沒有具體的影響"},{"start":335.527,"end":363.402,"text":"如果是已經執行了執行中的就是說這個軍購案的部分因為他還是說必須要劃分必要跟非必要人員如果是必要人員還是要來上班那這個必要人員就包括了軍人所以執行中的這個軍購案我想是政府跟政府之間的"},{"start":364.284,"end":376.965,"text":"也跟組合業上完整合約簽署那這個美軍這個他本身會對這個各軍購案執行中的軍購案項成立專案管理辦公室所以這個部分是不會有影響"},{"start":377.955,"end":399.299,"text":"那我想還在談的這個部分我們會密切關注他的這個情況就是說我們現在要提出來然後正在執行這些這個雙方來進行相關的一些購案的必要程序這個部分我們會來持續密注他們的這個聯邦機構的這個狀況"},{"start":405.34,"end":421.577,"text":"就是執行中的這個還會正常的運行對 已經執行中的應該那只是在洽談中的洽談中或是還沒有執行的軍購案的這個應該要走一定的程序這個部分我們會來一直不斷的持續跟他們來進行討論"},{"start":423.939,"end":451.006,"text":"好 這部分再請我們國防部再繼續追蹤那我們戴總統在國慶演說上也宣誓要打造我們這個台灣之盾那固然是我國防接下來非常重要的一個政策也牽涉到我們這個防空武器的這個籌貨和系統整合所以也看到國防部即將納入在接下來要提出的這個特別預算當中不過"},{"start":451.886,"end":465.981,"text":"我們要面對的是共軍打造低成本的遠程火箭炮能夠從福建沿海直接攻擊到台灣由於會大量消耗我方的防空戰力也可能會造成嚴重的威脅"},{"start":467.284,"end":494.396,"text":"那我方似乎還沒有很好的一個這個應對的方案那我想再請教部長就是台灣之盾會是我們應對共軍遠程火箭炮的一個這個解方嗎還是我們國防部有其他好的這個策略來因應我想總統提到的這個台灣之盾他最重要就是說我們要整合各式的整合政策器"},{"start":495.48,"end":516.979,"text":"這個所謂的Sensor然後到各式的這個Shooter就是各式的防空武器那麼雙方整合那麼透過一個鏈結之後我們形成一個擊殺網那所以這個鏈結各式的這些偵測器融會為各種武器形成的這個擊殺網當然是有"},{"start":519.421,"end":540.677,"text":"是全方位的多層的然後是這樣的一個整體飛彈防禦系統那反制遠程火箭作戰應用的策略跟系統結構當然是我們重要的一個建軍的方向不過現在因為相關的部分還失策集明我想就可能不方便在這裡公開好"},{"start":544.22,"end":568.74,"text":"日前我們國防部中副部長到美國出席國防會議的時候在接受訪問也有提到我們國防部必須整合現有的防護系統以及直通訊系統也與美方討論具體的合作方案希望能夠幫忙來整合台灣相關的防空系統"},{"start":569.921,"end":596.892,"text":"那對於這個防空系統的整合我們中科院與這個美商合作開發的這個IBCS整體作戰指揮系統是否已經啟動而我們是否已經得到美方具體的一個承諾將會來協助我們整合有沒有這個可能委員問的是指中科院跟那個美商洛格公司的那我想這個部分"},{"start":598.833,"end":616.509,"text":"就由中科院來回答我們在九月份已經簽署了合作備忘錄這個備忘錄的內容就是針對美制和台制防空系統來進行整合那因為雙方簽有保密協議所以相關洽談的內容是已經在進行中但是我們不方便對外公開進行中"},{"start":617.854,"end":638.239,"text":"我想還是跟委員補充一下有關整個飛彈防禦系統的整合應該是台美共同努力的目標啦我們這個部分如果有具體成果再跟委員做個說明好那另外對於這個無人機的運用無人機的運用我們已經討論一段時間了也是很多這個"},{"start":639.899,"end":666.483,"text":"民眾在關心的一個議題我們看到這次這個國防部的這個夜報當中特別提到在各作戰區我們將依任務的特性及這個戰術的運用配附各型的無人機並新增無人機大隊那我想請教我們陸軍對於這個無人機大隊的這個架構及邊桩是否有能夠公開說明的這個部分"},{"start":668.305,"end":681.303,"text":"像委員報告我們這個依照剛剛業務報告裡面各作戰區編設的無人機大隊那我們是現在已經開始在依照他主要還是要依據我們整個"},{"start":682.344,"end":697.152,"text":"武器或裝備獲得的期程來依照節點來編程那我們是管制在明年7月以前來全部完成成編那至於細部的編組規劃下去可以到委員辦公室向您做說明好"},{"start":698.453,"end":725.111,"text":"那相對來說我們對於這個無人機的這個大隊的建制應該也要了解到這個敵方在無人機上所擁有的相關資源我們對於這個共軍目前無人機服役的情形以及他部署的這個規模還有資源相對較少的情況下我想請教我們部長那對於這個共軍無人機的這個編組尤其是對台灣"},{"start":727.214,"end":744.793,"text":"的威脅還有它攻擊型的這個無人機它的規模以及數量我們國防部有沒有相關掌握的情質跟委員報告整體的這個防空的防禦這個防禦系統事實上就要包括反彈反擊跟反無人機"},{"start":746.134,"end":764.204,"text":"所以我想我們對於相關無人機也會有一定的規劃那在我們的要提做特別預算裡面也會有就反制無人機的這個部分來做一個規劃然後也納入我們整體防空裡面的一環"},{"start":765.56,"end":780.116,"text":"好 對共軍的無人機狀況我們有沒有掌握對 我們當然我們的相關的這些單位都會就中國的無人機的一個發展都有一個綿密的一個"},{"start":783.019,"end":802.891,"text":"收住跟延期目前無人機的操作人員還沒有專門加急隨著我們各部隊接裝之後無人機操作的人力需求也應當會隨之提升"},{"start":803.752,"end":819.1,"text":"那如果接下來要鼓勵更多的人才能夠來學習操作這個無人機我們也要鼓勵專業人員能夠長留人才 長留久用那國防部有沒有研議對於這個無人機的這個飛手也納入相關的這個加急的可能"},{"start":820.719,"end":833.489,"text":"首先第一個就是說因應組織變裝的調整我們要將這個戰鬥部隊的定義要做一些調修那所以無人機大隊應該也是戰鬥部隊裡面的一環所以他可以領戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":835.236,"end":864.553,"text":"那至於有沒有另外要針對這個在另外的家我想這個必須要整體要來考量研議因為每一個人都會有操作相關的這些高專的這個部分那所以這些部分的加急要做一個整通盤的規劃我們要留人才我想這個部分應該國防部要去審慎的這個評估應該適當的加急就要加急"},{"start":866.101,"end":866.565,"text":"好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時9分）謝謝召委，我們有請顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：先前和部長討論過共軍的動態，過去談到共軍犯臺的可能時間點，往往會參考「戴維森窗口」所指涉的2027年。但最近美國總統川普受訪時提到，中國打算在2027年入侵臺灣的部分，他認為不可能。近期解放軍內部高層動盪不安，過去四中全會召開時，包括中央軍委副主席何衛東，還有前政工部主任苗華，以及東部戰區司令林向陽等九名上將被開除黨籍。國安局先前也透露，有半數以上上將超過半年沒有露臉，所以實際上被整肅的人有可能更多！針對解放軍內部的整肅、清洗，尤其涉及負責臺灣的軍方高層，部長怎麼評估？就共軍的整備以及對臺灣作戰的相關影響上，有沒有觀察到共軍任何異常的跡象？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是看整個徵候，以及共軍對我們進行的相關演訓活動來做分析。我們觀察到共軍對臺還是維持常態的戰演訓活動……"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有異常現象？"],["顧部長立雄：而且他的軍事壓迫跟襲擾的狀況，也沒有因為何衛東、林向陽等對臺作戰的重要成員落馬而有所影響。國防部還是會運用多元管道跟聯合情監手段來持續掌握相關的敵情變化，我們要完善我們的預警徵候判斷，而不是單純地看他內部人事的動盪。"],["陳委員俊宇：這部分也請國防部跟情報單位能夠持續掌握，了解解放軍內部情形及相關動態，這對國防部來說應該是最為重要的一個部分。另外，在我們新式武器的籌獲方面，首批的海馬士多管火箭系統以及M1A2T戰車都在去年運抵臺灣，其中海馬士已經在7月正式成軍，但是戰車的部分只有公開實彈射擊的操演。我想請教部長，我們第一個M1A2T作戰單位的成軍是否已經有掌握到確切的時間點？"],["顧部長立雄：我們第一個營的成軍典禮會在10月31號，因為它在接受戰力測驗之後才能正式成軍，在10月31號會舉行一個成軍典禮。"],["陳委員俊宇：戰車的部分？"],["顧部長立雄：M1A2T。"],["陳委員俊宇：10月31號？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我們在7月份戰車實彈射擊當天有靜態的展示，其中衰變鈾的穿甲彈當時引發了一陣討論，但是在美國所公布的軍售方案當中並沒有這一款的彈藥。我想請教部長，國防部在後續是否會有另外購得這一款彈藥的可能，還是已經有購置其他的穿甲彈考量或是相關的規劃？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，我們在銳捷專案裡面，隨裝我們也購置了有六型的，包含這些高爆彈，還有翼穩脫殼穿甲彈，這些都依照我們交裝的期程實施交運，也都隨著要成軍的單位入庫了。在後續的部分，因為還會有射訓上面的需求，不管是練習彈或是實彈、穿甲彈也都有納入後續的後維持續採購規劃。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們也看到國防部預算在去年底所提出的不對稱作戰的特別預算，將會分7年來編列，但實際的規模應該還沒有定案。由於這個特別預算會有多項的軍購同步進行，我們對美國的軍購又高度仰賴美國政府的參與，針對這個部分，我想還是請教部長，美國政府目前是處於停擺的狀況，什麼時候會恢復運作還不曉得，這件事情對我們軍購案的執行有沒有具體的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：軍購案的部分，如果是已經執行了或執行中的，因為他還是必須要劃分必要跟非必要人員，如果是必要人員，還是要來上班，而這個必要人員就包括了軍人。所以執行中的軍購案，我想是政府跟政府之間的，也跟主合約商完成合約簽署，美軍本身也會對各軍購案、執行中的軍購案成立專案管理辦公室，所以這個部分是不會有影響。至於還在談的部分，我們會密切關注他的情況，就是我們現在要提出來，然後正在執行的這些需要雙方進行相關購案的必要程序，這個部分我們會來持續密注他們聯邦機構的狀況。"],["陳委員俊宇：就是執行中的還會正常的進行啦！"],["顧部長立雄：對，已經執行中的應該……"],["陳委員俊宇：但如果是在洽談中的，或是還沒有執行……"],["顧部長立雄：洽談中的軍購案因為要走一定的程序，這個部分我們會一直不斷的持續來跟他們進行討論。"],["陳委員俊宇：這部分就請國防部再繼續追蹤。","賴總統在國慶演說上也宣示要打造我們「臺灣之盾」，這固然是我國國防接下來非常重要的政策，也牽涉到我們防空武器的籌獲和系統整合，所以也看到國防部即將納入在接下來要提出的特別預算當中。不過，我們要面對的是共軍打造低成本的遠程火箭炮，能夠從福建沿海直接攻擊到臺灣，由於會大量消耗我方的防空戰力，也可能會造成嚴重的威脅，但我方似乎還沒有一個很好的應對方案。我想再請教部長，「臺灣之盾」會是我們應對共軍遠程火箭炮的一個解方嗎？還是國防部有其他好的策略來因應？"],["顧部長立雄：我想總統提到的「臺灣之盾」，最重要就是我們要整合各式的偵測器，從所謂的sensor到各式的shooter，也就是各式的防空武器，雙方整合，透過鏈結之後形成一個擊殺網，所以鏈結各式的這些偵測器，融匯為各種武器形成的擊殺網，當然是全方位的、多層的，是這樣的一個整體飛彈防禦系統。反制遠程火箭作戰應用的策略跟系統建構，當然是我們一個重要的建軍方向，不過現在因為相關的部分還是涉及機敏，我想可能不方便在這裡公開。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。日前國防部鍾副部長到美國出席國防會議，在接受訪問時也有提到，國防部必須整合現有的防護系統以及資通訊系統，也與美方討論具體的合作方案，希望能夠幫忙整合臺灣相關的防空系統。對於防空系統的整合，中科院與美商合作開發的IBCS整體作戰指揮系統是否已經啟動？我們是否已經得到美方具體的承諾，將會來協助我們整合，有沒有這個可能？"],["顧部長立雄：委員是指中科院跟美商Northrop Grumman公司的合作，我想這個部分就由中科院來回答一下。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["李院長世強：委員，我們在9月份已經簽署了合作備忘錄，這個備忘錄的內容就是針對美製和臺製防空系統進行整合，因為雙方簽約有保密協議，所以相關洽談的內容是已經在進行中，但是我們不方便對外公開。"],["陳委員俊宇：進行中啦？"],["顧部長立雄：我想還是跟委員補充一下，有關整個飛彈防禦系統的整合，應該是臺美共同努力的目標，這個部分如果我們有具體成果，再跟委員做個說明。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，對於無人機的運用，我們已經討論一段時間了，也是很多民眾在關心的一個議題，我們看到這次國防部的業報當中特別提到，在各作戰區，我們將依任務的特性及戰術的運用，配賦各型的無人機，並新增無人機大隊。我想請教陸軍對於這個無人機大隊的架構及編裝，是否有能夠公開說明的部分？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，依照剛剛業務報告，各作戰區編設的無人機大隊，它主要還是要依據我們整個武器或裝備獲得的期程，依照節點來編成，我們是管制在明年7月以前全部完成成編。至於細部的編組規劃，下去之後可以到委員辦公室向您做說明。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，相對來說，我們對於無人機大隊的建置，應該也要了解到敵方在無人機上所擁有的相關資源，我們對於共軍目前無人機服役的情形，以及它部署的規模，還有資源相對較少的情況下，我想請教部長，對於共軍無人機的編組，尤其是對臺灣的威脅，還有攻擊型的無人機，其規模及數量，國防部有沒有相關掌握的情資？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，整體的防空防禦系統，事實上就要包括反彈、反機跟反無人機，我想我們對於相關反無人機也會有一定的規劃，在我們要提出的特別預算裡面也會針對反制無人機的部分做規劃，然後也納入我們整體防空的一環。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，對共軍的無人機狀況，我們有沒有掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們相關的這些單位，就中國無人機的發展，都有一個綿密的蒐注跟研習。"],["陳委員俊宇：最後一個，就目前無人機的操作人員還沒有專門的加給，隨著我們各部隊接裝之後，無人機的操作人力需求也應當會隨之提升，如果接下來要鼓勵更多的人才能夠來學習操作無人機，我們也要鼓勵專業人員及人才能夠長留久用。國防部有沒有研議對於無人機的飛手，也納入相關加給的可能？"],["顧部長立雄：首先，因應組織編裝的調整，我們要將戰鬥部隊的定義要做一些調修，所以無人機大隊應該也是戰鬥部隊裡面的一環，所以他可以領戰鬥部隊加給。至於有沒有另外的加給，我想這個必須要整體來考量研議，因為每一個人都會操作相關這些高專的部分，所以這些部分的加給要做一個通盤的規劃。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們要留人才，我想這個部分國防部應該要去審慎的評估，應該適當的加給就要加給，以上謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。等一下沈伯洋委員質詢完畢以後，休息5分鐘。","現在請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d364700a6055551ab1cbd78a287304ef9f61e6bfef52f5c09316d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:16:11 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以我們現在對於核酸的片段的確認跟序列的確認它應該就是 但是應該通報的程序裡面只剩下程序把它走完而已對 還要做分類了以後的程序走完以後我們就會那個正式通報為非洲豬瘟 是對 好 那再來我請教一下這個非洲豬瘟的病毒株跟越南是一樣的嗎"},{"start":36.158,"end":55.221,"text":"我根據我們的檢測的結果它的序列裡面它是一個重組的序列然後比較接近於越南我請我們的獸醫所的所長來說明沒關係 就是應該是可能性很高啦對不對不是 因為我們用非核株的病毒序列非常長那我們目前只訂了其中的三段"},{"start":55.942,"end":76.919,"text":"那他要知道病毒從哪裡來或是不是從祖豬要其他的部分完整的分析那我們今天會有初步的結果會知道他是從水部長跟越南的很類似嘛對不對目前沒有其實多數還是跟第二基因型就是中國或者是在那個東南亞流行豬所以其中一小段比較像越南豬而已"},{"start":77.386,"end":94.448,"text":"OK好所以中國跟越南是都有可能的對好那再來我請教一下部長我們現在是禁運5天啊但這個時間上面剛剛很多人也提到了會再延長嗎不是我們不是說延長我想我們的整個的一個禁運期間是根據我們的可能的潛伏期就是15天"},{"start":95.049,"end":111.027,"text":"但是我們用5天來做觀察所以禁疫15天那5天5天觀察如果狀況控制下來就可以縮短而且是可以限制在某個區域的話那我們就會開始就是做這些解禁的動作就是15天所以以15天"},{"start":112.168,"end":129.665,"text":"好 那再要請一下部長這個來源到底是從哪邊來的是從境外 就是由那個進來還是到底這個來源是從哪裡來的我想我們現在看到的是一個結果那我們才會啟動疫調那我剛才說的這個來源本身因為非洲豬瘟的傳播"},{"start":130.461,"end":155.199,"text":"他有非常多的多的方向包括人員可能出國進來帶進來的也有可能廚餘那也有可能從走私有些東西其他的東西然後進到那個生物房子做得不好由其他的人員有沒有參觀的人員來污染的所以這三樣都有可能就對了所以在疫調沒有完整呈現之前我們不能揣測說他的來源一定是哪一個所以這三樣都不排除啦"},{"start":156.22,"end":172.322,"text":"那最有可能是哪一個 目前不過現在因為疫調還在進行 我們沒有辦法判斷因為特別是人員的部分那我請教一下 那因為在15天的一個狀況的話從10月10號如果發病的話那應該是最早是在9月底囉是不是回推的話最快的"},{"start":173.176,"end":193.703,"text":"15天前啊15天前的話那就9月底10月10號發生了第一個嘛所以9月底就發生了嘛所以等於9月底後會全面去清查對我們從10月往前回溯往前回溯15天往後控制15天這樣好那我請教一下為什麼到了10月14號才去訪視然後甚至於場主還拒絕訪視這有沒有問題"},{"start":195.342,"end":214.525,"text":"不過我想我們報告所呈現的那個時序的部分都是在第一時間去問台東市的動保處的人員的一個回應那我剛才說了這個回應只是單方面的回應那到底我們要做疫調嗎部長那這個你認為初步來看有沒有檢討改進的空間"},{"start":215.406,"end":233.477,"text":"這個我想以這樣的作為來看絕對有一我們有必須有精進的部分啊有必須有更精進的一個作為就如果可以在第一時間能夠去掌握到的話甚至第一時間去做比如說10月14能夠直接做一個相關的一個檢查的話檢測的話那有可能在那個時間點就找出來"},{"start":234.357,"end":259.102,"text":"對 當然當你發現異常越快檢測它的擴散就也不會那麼容易所以無論如何應該10月14那一批應該是要來檢測才對是吧對 以我們現在看到畫質上異常的現象的話它從10月1號到10月總共有5批啦 有5批異常那其實我們都有監控後端的畫質的嘛畫質的數量那這5批的異常如果能夠更早的話我相信能夠更快的能夠"},{"start":259.722,"end":272.993,"text":"所以有檢討改進的空間有精進的空間對那因為動物傳染病防治條第9條第13條其實他不得拒絕嘛這你說案主是不得拒絕的是吧那如果你拒絕依照45條你是有罰則的那為什麼這會開罰嗎"},{"start":275.543,"end":291.497,"text":"不過我想就是因為地方政府在看的時候他會看當場的現象如果地方政府的動保人員他覺得應該要去實際的去檢查的時候那個事主就不能拒絕所以沒有要求"},{"start":291.917,"end":307.397,"text":"所以沒有這個就是要疫調我們才能夠知道所以我希望未來在這件事情上面要加強在這一塊的整個制度上的建立啦就是說類似像這樣狀況如果10月14有強力的要求一定要做那個的話你不做的話我依照川明的防治我可以開罰的"},{"start":308.038,"end":324.687,"text":"那當時如果做的話也許我們就多出更多的時間我們可能多出至少六天的時間來做一些因應所以我希望這一些未來讓他如果整個檢討裡面應該要去做檢討我們一定的我們在疫調的過程中一定發現說可能有很多地方必須精進一定會來做那我問了一下目前有沒有蔓延出去"},{"start":326.687,"end":350.545,"text":"有沒有蔓延出去 整個病毒狀況有沒有蔓延出去 有沒有控制住蔓延 OK 我想我們現在看到的就是觀念場附近的觀念場都沒有異常其他的周邊是沒有異常的對 就是觀念場三公里之內所以都是在這個暗場內對 大概暗場內 暗場內的也都鋪砂了對 已經鋪砂了 所以我們現在先鎖定台中區是一個主要的疫調的作為因為它的觀念場都在台中跑"},{"start":351.025,"end":367.952,"text":"所以只要在這接近的這15天的時間如果周邊沒有再發生任何狀況有可能第一步就先控制下來然後我們也全國性的因為這15天我們也會做全國性的一個調查嘛那看看有沒有可能就是說其他地方如果沒有症狀的話我想那就是很明確的鎖到這個案例這樣子"},{"start":368.692,"end":395.43,"text":"那部長我請教那像這樣的事情的發生對我們的豬肉對我們整個經濟的產值會有什麼樣的影響我想喔在禁運禁載的期間一定會有一些階段性的影響那我剛才說的這些豬肉衝擊會有多大那我們盡可能的就是將我們的冷凍的冷凍的庫存釋出給薛東央我說的是整體未來我們的產業如果沒有守住這一關的話整個衝擊會有多大如果完全沒守住的話遇到前一以上的損失嘛"},{"start":396.26,"end":423.999,"text":"我們光租的產業就800多億然後冠延產業的話超過1000億我希望政府努力啦 中央地方合作最後我問一下台中農業局說該做的都已經做了部長同意這樣的說法嗎我不知道他說這句話他做了什麼東西我沒辦法評斷但是我想我們在疫調一定會呈現出完整的從現在這樣真相揭露我認為應該還有很大努力的空間一定是有我們必須改進的空間我希望中央地方合作來改善我們一定這樣做"},{"start":425.715,"end":425.735,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時16分）謝謝召委。請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教非洲豬瘟的部分，現在看來似乎只剩程序，應該百分之九十九點九是非洲豬瘟，應該是這樣吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，以我們現在對於核酸片段的確認跟序列的確認，它應該就是，但是因為通報的程序裡面，我們必須……"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該就是非洲豬瘟，只剩下要把程序走完而已？"],["陳部長駿季：對，還要做分類以後的程序，走完以後，我們就會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：正式通報為非洲豬瘟。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，這個非洲豬瘟的病毒株跟越南是一樣的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：根據我們檢測的結果，它是一個重組的序列，比較接近越南，我請獸醫所的所長來說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒關係，應該是可能性很高了，對不對？"],["鄧所長明中：是，因為非洲豬瘟的病毒序列非常長，我們目前只定了其中的三段，要知道病毒從哪裡來或者是不是重組株，要其他的部分完整的分析，我們今天會有初步的結果，會知道它是類似哪一個病毒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前是跟越南的很類似嘛，對不對？"],["鄧所長明中：目前沒有，其實多數還是跟第二基因型，就是中國或者是東南亞流行株，只是其中一小段比較像越南株而已。"],["賴委員瑞隆：OK，所以中國跟越南是都有可能的？"],["鄧所長明中：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，部長，我們現在是禁運5天，但這個時間上面，剛剛很多委員有提到，會再延長嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們不是說延長，我們的禁運期間是根據可能的潛伏期，就是15天，但是我們用5天來做觀察……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以是禁運15天，5天、5天觀察，如果狀況控制下來就可以縮短？"],["陳部長駿季：如果狀況是可以控的，而且可以限縮在某個區域的話，我們就會開始解禁，就是15天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以以15天啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再請教部長，這個來源到底是從哪邊來的？是從境外進來，還是……到底這個來源是從哪裡來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在看到的是一個結果，所以我們才會啟動疫調，我剛才說了，這個來源本身，因為非洲豬瘟的傳播有非常多的方向，包括可能是人員出國帶進來的，也有可能是廚餘、也有可能走私其他的東西，生物防治做得不好，由其他參觀的人員來污染的，所以有非常多的可能……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以目前這三樣都有可能就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：很多可能，所以在疫調沒有完整呈現之前，我們不能揣測它的來源一定是哪一個。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這三樣都不排除啦？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前最有可能的是哪一個？"],["陳部長駿季：現在因為疫調還在進行，我們沒有辦法判斷，特別是人員的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我請教一下，因為這樣15天的狀況，如果是10月10日發病的話，回推回去，最早應該是在9月底吧？"],["陳部長駿季：最快是15天前。"],["賴委員瑞隆：15天前的話就是9月底，因為10月10日發生第一起，那表示9月底就發生了，所以等於9月底後的會全面去清查。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們從10月往前回溯15天，往後控制15天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我請教一下，為什麼到了10月14日才去訪視，甚至於場主還拒絕訪視，這有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我們報告所呈現的時序部分都是在第一時間去問臺中市動保處人員的回應，我剛才說了，這個回應只是單方面的回應，我們要做疫調……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，初步來看，你認為這個有沒有檢討改進的空間？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以這樣的作為來看，絕對有要精進的部分，必須有更精進的一個作為。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果可以在第一時間去掌握到，甚至第一時間去做，比如說10月14日能夠直接做相關的檢查、檢測的話，有可能在那個時間點就找出來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，當你發現異常，越快檢測，它的擴散就不會那麼容易。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以無論如何，10月14日那一批應該要來檢測才對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，以我們現在看到化製場異常的現象，從10月1日到10月……總共有5批異常，其實我們都有監控後端化製的數量，這5批的異常如果能夠更早發現的話，我相信能夠更快地……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有檢討改進的空間啦？"],["陳部長駿季：有精進的空間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：依動物傳染病防治條例第九條、第十三條規定，案主是不得拒絕的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果拒絕，依照第四十五條是有罰則的。這會開罰嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：因為地方政府在看的時候，他會看當場的現象，如果地方政府的動保人員覺得應該要實際的去檢查的時候，那個飼主就不能拒絕。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以沒有要求？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個就是要疫調才能夠知道。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望未來在這件事情上面要加強這一塊整個制度上的建立，就是類似像這樣的狀況，如果10月14日有強力要求一定要做那個的話，你不做的話，依照動物傳染病防治條例的規定，我是可以開罰的。當時如果做的話，也許我們就多出更多的時間，可能至少多出6天的時間來做因應。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望這些未來要納入檢討，你們應該要去做檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：一定的，我們在疫調的過程中一定會發現可能有很多地方必須精進，一定會來做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下，目前有沒有蔓延出去？整個病毒狀況有沒有蔓延出去？有沒有控制住？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在看到的是附近的關聯場都沒有異常。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其他的周邊是沒有異常的？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是案場三公里之內還有一些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以都是在這個案場內？"],["陳部長駿季：對，大概案場內……"],["賴委員瑞隆：案場內的也都撲殺了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，已經撲殺了，我們現在先鎖定臺中區採主要的疫調作為，因為關聯場都是在臺中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以只要在接近的15天這段時間在周邊沒有再發生任何狀況，就是有可能第一步就控制下來了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，在這15天我們也會做全國性的調查，其他地方的豬隻如果沒有症狀的話，我想那就是很明確的鎖到這個案例。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我請教你，像發生這樣的事情，對我們整個豬肉的經濟產值會有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳部長駿季：我想在禁運、禁宰的期間一定會有一些階段性的影響，就像我剛才說的，這些豬肉供應量不足的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：衝擊會有多大？"],["陳部長駿季：我們儘可能的將我們冷凍的庫存釋出給學童的營養午餐。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我說的是整體未來我們的產業，如果沒有守住這一關的話，整個衝擊會有多大？"],["陳部長駿季：如果完全沒有守住的話，遇到……"],["賴委員瑞隆：會有千億以上的損失嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們光是豬的產業就八百多億，關聯產業超過1,000億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望政府努力，中央、地方要合作。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後我問一下，臺中農業局說該做的都已經做了，部長同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道他說這句話是他做了什麼東西，我沒辦法評斷，但是我想我們在疫調一定會呈現出完整的作為。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從現在揭露這樣的真相，我認為應該還有很大的努力空間。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定是有我們必須改進的空間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望中央、地方合作來改善。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們一定這樣做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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我想請一下農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長部長好我想說碰到這個非洲豬瘟的個案狀態其實我們一定是非常的擔心可是防疫是同作戰我在想說我們在經濟委員會我們都很務實我們在想怎麼樣子能夠解決問題而不是在打口水"},{"start":36.056,"end":55.619,"text":"所以我想說一開始我一定要特別提到說最近在網路上有很多的風向在特別在講說因為藍白三預算沒宣費的時候然後才產生非洲豬瘟我覺得這完全是莫名其妙因為你剛剛有特別提到說這個非洲豬瘟他不可能從台灣自己生起來他一定是外來的對不對所以邊境的一個"},{"start":57.123,"end":83.74,"text":"儘管檢驗一定是最重要的是不是是嘛對不對所以說我在這邊要特別提到我就說事實上我們在今年的追加預算當中的時候張總預算追加預算當中的時候其實包括民進黨在內是三黨有共識針對於這個沒宣費的問題是三黨有共識的所以我就在這邊就不要再去考慮什麼沒宣費然後要去帶風向去什麼抹黑在野黨的狀態我覺得這真的是不需要"},{"start":87.622,"end":113.98,"text":"我們現在看到網路上面有很多的網軍就開始在帶風向我覺得這真的是莫名其妙的事情完全沒有把真正的問題點看出來那現在我們就特別看到的狀態就是說既然部長剛剛也特別提到非洲軍一定是外來的至於說他是怎麼樣的產生你剛剛提到說也許有很多可能性包括人體可能會帶進來對不對他都有很多的可能性所以我們的邊境的管控絕對是最重要的"},{"start":114.64,"end":136.596,"text":"那我這邊我就先問一個問題事實上在那個我們從109年的時候我們整個那個疫檢的全組總共有多少109年的時候檢疫全組"},{"start":141.109,"end":143.852,"text":"現在56組嘛對不對其實在109年的時候只有50組從109年前是50組那麼109年開始有56組我給你們看一個數字109年的時候我們的一個就是"},{"start":161.348,"end":180.301,"text":"入境的人數大概只有398萬人因為那時候大概有疫情沒有問題到現在的時候已經有了2494萬人入境人數包括我們國人的部分因為我們入境都必須要有這樣子的一個檢疫對不對可是我們現在的那個"},{"start":181.682,"end":195.467,"text":"檢疫犬的部分的時候還是只有56組工作量成長了已經快要8倍左右的狀態這種狀態的時候我想請問一下我們現在檢疫犬它的一個檢疫覆蓋率大概有多高"},{"start":196.584,"end":226.304,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的所有的邊境的檢查那檢疫權是一個輔助的作為理解他不是用這個部分最主要是用X光機那我們在X光機的判斷是百分之百嗎我有看到這個數字一個重要的就是X光機我們現在希望包括光務組包括中研院都有合作就是讓他用AI更精準的判試的時候那相對的那個檢出的準確率越來越高然後檢疫權是在做這個邊境的部分的一些通道的部分有沒有"},{"start":226.944,"end":255.551,"text":"特別是要出關的時候其他的輔助嘛那因為我們現在之前沒有問題的時候我們可能也覺得這樣也許夠可是問題現在碰到的狀態我們就希望不要有百密一疏的情況所以針對檢疫犬這個部分的時候我們是不是有需要要增加已經有因為檢疫犬需要培訓然後最近我們現在也一直不斷的確認然後從美國的部分這邊然後還有其他的公務署這邊也在協助一起來協助把這個檢疫犬輔助的作為能夠增加"},{"start":256.272,"end":263.22,"text":"預計能夠增加多少組多少多快的時間"},{"start":265.066,"end":273.269,"text":"沒有 我想這算是整個公讓權我想我們回去再做仔細的評估好 那針對這個部分的時候因為我想從109年就只有56組那時候只有398萬入境人數現在到113年已經到了2494萬入境人數的時候我就還只剩下56組我就顯然不合理那之後我們檢疫權的一個人數"},{"start":287.176,"end":295.696,"text":"犬數要怎麼樣增加再給本席很清楚的一個資料我只是再補充一下我們在對非洲豬瘟的控管裡面有分國家分為"},{"start":296.894,"end":323.846,"text":"高風險跟低風險 理解這個部分我們都知道所以旅客也分流了以後 理解理解這個只要有入境的人大概都知道這個地方先不用特別講因為時間有限那我要特別講到因為在這一次整個的一個非洲豬的事件當中大家對於廚餘的問題其實就非常的有感因為目前感覺上好像是廚餘這邊導致的一個問題那我這邊要特別提到就像我也不想很口水的去講說其實張立善在就是2018年當縣長"},{"start":326.227,"end":337.551,"text":"他那時候就特別提到要敬畏廚餘可是當時的一個行政院長賴清德他其實是表示反對的那我不想口水講這個事情可是我只是想要講說廚餘這個問題因為目前只有8%的"},{"start":342.552,"end":357.08,"text":"株枝是用廚餘的部分剛剛有特別提到46萬頭那我想請教一下針對現在我們要用廚餘的部分都必須要有高溫蒸煮的一個情況請問這個部分有沒有真正的落實"},{"start":358.121,"end":377.248,"text":"我想我們的每一個高溫蒸煮廠本身它的中心溫度90度C一個小時我們都有資料就是去看它的溫度計然後把這個影像回溯環境部的部分回溯到環境部的後面的資料那我們會去檢查"},{"start":378.008,"end":406.501,"text":"因為當時賴清德當行政院長他那時候表示說因為用廚餘養豬有時候是因為成本的一個考量所以針對這個部分的時候呢你如果說要90度要高溫蒸煮一個小時以上的部分的時候我在想說很多這樣子的養豬廠他們會不會為了要控制成本而沒有真正的去落實去達到而且你如果是高溫蒸煮一個小時通常其實廚餘會有很難聞的味道可能周邊的"},{"start":407.461,"end":419.109,"text":"那個也會有一些抱怨所以我在認為我們對於高溫真主這件事情如果沒有辦法真正有效的落實的時候是不是就全面的禁止廚餘餵養"},{"start":420.821,"end":443.497,"text":"我想要不要用廚餘我們後續會滾動檢討但是一個非常重要的就是你如果要用廚餘的話我們所使用的廚餘的相關的規範是一個安全的那現在重要的就是我們一定要去加強監管的部分是非常重要那我剛才說的廚餘養豬的這些溫度計有沒有他是有影像攝影去判試的然後會回報所以一定會加強監管"},{"start":444.525,"end":463.161,"text":"有完整的規範本席認為以台灣的法律體系一定會有問題是如何去落實去這件事情我覺得是最重要的好不好那我們希望大家一起中央地方一起合力來解決這次非洲豬瘟的一個挑戰好不好好 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因為它慢慢的會淘汰掉"},{"start":182.335,"end":210.845,"text":"他慢慢會淘汰掉所以說我們可是如果我們就是在看全世界不管是歐美不管是日本的話他們的銅板他們其實還是一個非常流行的貨幣他還是有在流通但是他也沒有改版所以鄰近的國家他們基本上一般國家主要國家他在改版都是紙鈔沒有涉及到銅板"},{"start":212.836,"end":227.115,"text":"那我们很清楚就是说CPTC它可能是未来现今的一个数位化的替代品也可能是我们支付体系的一个改革最重要的工具那它跟比特币呢"},{"start":227.715,"end":247.34,"text":"它跟比特幣如果我做這樣子的一個比較的話 仲裁當然就是說你這一個CPTC是一個法定的貨幣它得到了國家的一個支持那它可以集中管理那它也是安全性是比較高的那它價值也是穩定"},{"start":248.4,"end":264.165,"text":"那日常的支付還有跨境的交易其實就是政府的資金的分配都是穩定的那成本也比較低那尤其是國內的一個交易那你認為就是說如果這兩個貨幣的話"},{"start":268.479,"end":273.484,"text":"你還可以突顯你的CBDC更優勢的地方在哪裡那當然第一個我想"},{"start":279.181,"end":295.995,"text":"央行的數位貨幣它在支付方面它是沒有問題的但是比特幣因為價格波動太大它沒有以前一開始的時候就說比特幣就是要來當支付它是一個虛擬的資產"},{"start":301.34,"end":308.806,"text":"它不是貨幣但是它一開始發展的時候它是想要變成一個支付的工具但是從它開始2008、2009一直到現在它都沒有實現也就是說它沒辦法因為它被太多人操縱了因為它基本上而且它也人為操縱第二個它也會洗錢什麼的之類的這些所以比特幣基本上當初就是說希望它作為一個支付的工具到目前為止都沒有"},{"start":331.262,"end":354.802,"text":"谢谢总裁我们再拉回来核心消费者的物价指数其实整体来讲都算是稳定可是通膨的风险跟利率政策的一个平衡这也考验着央行在整个政策面上如何的去执行我先用国泰金在10月份他有一个国民经济的一个信心调查这个民调里头"},{"start":355.462,"end":375.153,"text":"有六成的民眾認為物價偏高六成的民眾認為物價偏高總裁你有沒有這樣的感覺委員如果說這麼說的話我可以這麼說就是說基本上低所得的民眾"},{"start":376.434,"end":398.534,"text":"会觉得说我们的物价偏高是低所得那为什么说低所得的会比较认为物价会偏高因为低所得者呢他大部分的他大部分的收入来源呢很大一部分就是都是在那个什么民生用品方面没有错那民生的话那这个是波动是比较大"},{"start":400.509,"end":419.752,"text":"可是這個體感通膨已經衝擊到就是說我們的壽星家庭還有中產階級的家庭他的感受會比較大中產家庭其實這個體感通膨也影響到了因為我們可以期他可能會越來越貴所以有很多人"},{"start":420.833,"end":445.379,"text":"其實是沒什麼改善你看在家裡頭開火的人也越來越多了所以我也不問你說蚵仔蒸那個很多錢因為每一個區域性不同可是可預期就是我們感受到市場其實這個物價指數就是說像你講的這個吃的民生的吃的 吃新的是一直都起來"},{"start":446.179,"end":460.059,"text":"是 没有错最近就是说在很多房间的一个民调他认为央行是双杀我们的首购主还有换屋主怎么讲"},{"start":462.923,"end":466.348,"text":"沒有啦 總裁 你就說沒有啦我聽你這個笑聲就有點心虛啦因為你在笑 你不會喔如果你是很有自信 你會笑到那麼大聲你現在笑到小聲小聲這個是有點壯膽"},{"start":480.945,"end":494.573,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個意味沒有 我覺得我們的選擇信用管制你看看我們選擇信用管制我們都強調我們的信用資源要給所購足"},{"start":495.734,"end":500.958,"text":"要給都耕者 要給社會住宅的我講一個案例給你聽這一家人本來是要換房子"},{"start":513.528,"end":530.524,"text":"结果他因为你的豪宅贷款的一个限制结果被逼上了节颅这个是小市民的心声他投到我的粉专上头来我跟委员报告事实上有一些"},{"start":531.866,"end":536.553,"text":"事實上他都認為就是說他是我們選擇信用管制的一個被我們選擇信用管制到了事實上我們有很多的case去了解事實上不是"},{"start":547.77,"end":552.815,"text":"所以大家都認為他借不到錢是因為中央銀行的關係是央行卡死了啊為什麼不是炒房是換屋結果被豪宅線卡死了呢我今天買一個4500萬的房子就是說我在台南我預約了一個3800萬的地售屋"},{"start":570.672,"end":597.25,"text":"結果交屋的時候銀行的建價是四千兩百萬結果被認為是豪宅那貸款從原來的預期的七成降為三成況且這個三成還是企業價是本來的三千八百萬的企業價那你看來去就差了一千一百四十萬那資金的切口就變成一千五百萬"},{"start":598.11,"end":625.916,"text":"你想這麼差大的一個差異誰有這麼大的一筆錢可是如果你讓我慢慢繳的時候我是買得起這個3800萬的房子所以你的當然就是被你卡死了不過我跟委員報告事實上建商跟我們的預購房屋的消費者他們之間也有一個定型化契約"},{"start":627.304,"end":636.338,"text":"那個定型化契約裡面他就有定的就是說在不可規則的因素之下如果說他的貸款跟他的貸款跟他房子要購物的"},{"start":643.388,"end":661.16,"text":"你如果把它講到這個定型業那個定型性的一個企業這個是另外那我來跟你討論的就是你豪宅的認定標準已經十幾年你根本都沒有調整那你那個央行的標準脫節了這麼久你看你在101年的時候"},{"start":666.277,"end":691.193,"text":"你要不要让我讲好 我能讲所以就是说我希望也建议你是不是这个豪宅在台北市我们可以调整为9000万是不然你看整个台北市每一个人都是住豪宅怎么会是这个样子呢少数人不住豪宅绝大部分的人在台北市都住豪宅因为都超过7000万是"},{"start":692.654,"end":709.099,"text":"那新北市我們調整為七千五百萬其他的縣市是不是可以調整為五千五百萬你拿回去做參考好不好美人的建立我們拿回去參考好不好我想這個已經造成名焰相當深那我們還是要充分的研究謝謝總裁 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時1分）謝謝主席。有請央行總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["賴委員惠員：楊總裁早安。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：我想從數位貨幣到選擇性的信用管制，今天跟你探討這幾個議題。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：有關CBDC，總裁，我可不可以講它就是未來數位新臺幣，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以，委員講的沒有錯，就是數位新臺幣啊！"],["賴委員惠員：對嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：央行把政策面就是定格在這個地方？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員講得不錯。"],["賴委員惠員：定格在這個地方的時候，你希望它會取代以後零售支付的補充工具嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：就是類似支付寶的一個概念？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該是。"],["賴委員惠員：如果比較老的人要怎麼辦？像是我們鄉下的長輩怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員考慮得很周到，事實上我們這一次現金改版也有這樣的意思，現金還是沒辦法取代的，電子支付還是沒辦法取代現金的。所以我們這一次要改版，每一個國家的改版也不會是因為現在電子支付很發達，所以就不要現金了，不是！反而應該要考量到我們的弱勢群體，還有金融沒有普及的地方，還有就是老年人的數位知識不足的。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，所以你有分階段嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然！"],["賴委員惠員：CBDC已經在進行了嘛？這個策略已經在進行了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：已經在規劃了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你的新臺幣還要再改版嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：事實上也延續郭委員剛才質詢的內容，它也必須要改版，因為太久的時間了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：已經太久的時間了，還有當今的環境，其實大家在使用貨幣的習慣已經慢慢做了很大的改變，不管是大鈔還是100元，有時候銅板不常用的時候還會有點搞錯了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不過銅板這一次不改版。"],["賴委員惠員：銅板這一次不改版？為什麼不改版？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為銅板第一個，面額小；第二個，它改版了以後，成本反而超過……沒有改版的效益。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有改版的效益？"],["楊總裁金龍：它慢慢會淘汰掉。"],["賴委員惠員：它慢慢會淘汰掉？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我們看全世界，不管是歐美、日本，他們的銅板其實還是非常流通的貨幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它還是有在流通，但是它也沒有改版。"],["賴委員惠員：它也沒有改版？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它也沒有改版。"],["賴委員惠員：所以鄰近的國家基本上就是……"],["楊總裁金龍：一般國家改版的都是紙鈔，沒有涉及到銅板。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我們很清楚，CBDC未來可能是現金的數位化替代品……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：也可能是支付體系改革最重要的工具。它跟比特幣，如果我這樣比較……當然，總裁說CBDC是一個法定貨幣，得到了國家的支持。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：它可以集中管理。也是安全性比較高的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：它的價值也穩定，日常的支付還有跨境的交易及政府資金的分配都是穩定的，成本也比較低，尤其是國內的交易。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為如果這兩個貨幣相較，還可以凸顯CBDC更優勢的地方在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然。第一個，因為央行的數位貨幣在支付方面是沒有問題的，但是比特幣的價格波動太大。以前一開始的時候就說比特幣是要當作支付，而它是虛擬的資產，不是貨幣。它一開始發展的時候是想要變成一個支付的工具，但是它從2008、2009開始一直到現在都沒有實現，也就是它沒辦法成為……"],["賴委員惠員：因為它被太多人操縱了。因為它基本上就是……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它會被人為操縱，第二個，它也會被用來洗錢之類的。基本上，當初希望比特幣作為一個支付的工具，到目前為止都沒有實現。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝總裁。我們再拉回來談核心消費者的物價指數，其實整體來講都算是穩定，可是通膨的風險跟利率政策的平衡，也考驗著央行在整個政策面上如何執行。我先用國泰金10月份的國民經濟信心調查，在這個民調裡頭有六成的民眾認為物價偏高，你有沒有這樣的感覺？"],["楊總裁金龍：我可以這麼說，基本上，第一個，低所得的民眾會覺得我們的物價偏高，為什麼低所得的比較會認為物價偏高？因為低所得者收入來源有很大一部分都是用在民生用品方面。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，當然。"],["楊總裁金龍：民生用品的波動比較大。"],["賴委員惠員：可是這個體感通膨已經衝擊到受薪家庭，還有中產階級家庭。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，低所得者的感受會比較大。"],["賴委員惠員：對，其實這個體感通膨也影響到中產家庭了，因為我們可預期它可能會越來越貴，所以有很多人其實不太敢花錢，你看在家裡開伙的人也越來越多了。我不問你蚵仔煎一份多少錢，因為每一個區域不同……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我們感受到物價指數就像你講的，吃的、民生用品都一直漲上來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：最近很多坊間的民調認為央行是雙殺首購族還有換屋族，怎麼講呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，首購族不會啊！"],["賴委員惠員：總裁一定會說沒有，我聽你的笑聲就是有點心虛。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會！"],["賴委員惠員：因為你在笑，如果是很有自信，你會笑得比較大聲，你現在笑得小小聲，就是有點壯膽。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會！我還是那麼大聲。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有這樣的意味？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！你看看我們的選擇信用管制都強調我們的信用資源要給首購族、要給都更者、要給社會住宅。我們強調的是這樣，怎麼會壓垮首購族？"],["賴委員惠員：我講一個案例給你聽，這一家人本來是要換房子，因為豪宅貸款的限制，結果被逼上了絕路。這是小市民的心聲，他投到我的粉專。"],["楊總裁金龍：有一些人都認為被我們的選擇性信用管制打擊、管制到了，我們有去了解很多的case，事實上不是……"],["賴委員惠員：不是，我也有很多例子，我覺得是你卡死……"],["楊總裁金龍：大家都認為借不到錢是因為中央銀行的關係……"],["賴委員惠員：是央行卡死了！為什麼不是炒房是換屋，結果被豪宅線卡死了呢？比如在臺南預訂了一個3,800萬的預售屋，結果交屋的時候，銀行鑑價是4,200萬，被認為是豪宅，於是貸款從原來預期的七成降為三成，況且三成還用本來3,800萬的契約價計算，你看來回貸款降到1,140萬，資金缺口變成1,520萬。你想這麼差大的差異，誰有這麼大一筆錢？如果你讓我慢慢繳，我是買得起這個3,800萬的房子，所以這當然就是被你卡死了！"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，建商跟預購房屋的消費者之間有一個定型化契約，那個定型化契約裡面就有訂定，在不可歸責的因素之下，如果貸款跟房子要過戶……"],["賴委員惠員：你如果把它講到定型化契約，這是另外一個階段……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它本來就要適用那個……"],["賴委員惠員：而我要來跟你討論的是豪宅的認定標準已經十幾年都沒有調整，央行的標準脫節了這麼久，你看這是你們在101年訂的，我希望也建議你，豪宅在臺北市是不是可以調整為9,000萬？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：不然你看臺北市每一個人都是住豪宅，怎麼會是這樣呢？少數人不住豪宅，絕大部分的人在臺北市都住豪宅，因為都超過7,000萬。新北市調整為7,500萬，其他縣市是不是可以調整為5,500萬？你拿回去參考，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。委員的建議我們拿回去參考，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝你。"],["賴委員惠員：我想這個已經造成相當深的民怨，你們還是要充分的研究。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝總裁，謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，賴惠員委員的質詢結束。","接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d31b5214e7a7b7a13d8c2d94e6d34c5cc961e6bfef52f5c0934dbbcf117f4815fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:56:15 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洛陽是 部長早部長有關於這個前幾天那個某個週刊這個媒體呢有踢爆就是大器海洋區的局長種種荒謬的這個行為那我有看到就是海軍司令部其實也有出面做了一些澄清"},{"start":27.009,"end":45.242,"text":"就是说像报道里面有提到的收集演讯时候的机密的资讯,上改春节的战备的轮值,然后是让中资的背景公司入营等等,还有营区的男女混入等等,这些都是属于不实的报道。"},{"start":45.842,"end":51.112,"text":"那唯一呢可能就是違反治安規定的部分呢做這個檢討試處那個參謀今天剛剛也上來了你們這個確實都已經做過調查了嗎"},{"start":58.518,"end":77.394,"text":"我想跟委員報告 我想這樣子齁現在是一個海軍的初步調查那我已經請我們的國防部的總督察長要介入來由國防部的層級來進行一個整體的調查那我們做完整體調查以後再跟各位委員報告"},{"start":78.266,"end":103.955,"text":"所以目前還在調查當中因為我有看到的就是只有違反治安規定這部分會來做檢討因為指控真的是非常的嚴重結果的這些指控現在變成都是不實的目前要檢討的部分就是只有治安的這個部分那所以說因為我剛剛在提到說你們有提到就是說什麼東西不實什麼東西不實可是有一個部分我有注意到就是說它公"},{"start":104.955,"end":122.822,"text":"公然要求LINE來傳輸這個機密的部分我們海軍司令部這邊好像並沒有否認是不是確實有做過這個動作嗎LINE的部分當時應該是在有設一個群組但是沒有如看起來沒有如"},{"start":123.622,"end":144.82,"text":"外界所講的有涉及到漢光演習這個部分但是它還是違規所以是在去年的4月3號就不是今年7月喔是去年 應該是前一兩年在漢光演習以前它就已經要求就是說把一個這個群組就解散了"},{"start":148.225,"end":174.499,"text":"對 他們那時候就是跟這個艦隊指揮部這邊開會嘛然後要求把這個機密的這個資料呢傳到他私設的未加密LINE群組所以這部分是有的是不是就是說有這樣的一個群組但是在去年的4月3號就已經解散了那我想請教一下他這個他這個所謂私設的這個LINE的群組是在他自己私人的手機還是公務機"},{"start":176.058,"end":189.606,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告他這個公務群組其實是針對海上氣象的傳遞跟氣象通報資料的一個在他們公務群組那這個公務群組在依照規定是有簽核來執行"},{"start":192.935,"end":217.892,"text":"那但是就是因為在成立這個四個多月中間那局長可能覺得相關的訊息還是試射一些比較不太適合公開所以他在四個月後他把這個群組就關了那後面就會用我們這個一個另外一個管道來做所以它裡面的機密也不是汗光的機密只是一個水文收集的一個任務使用的一個運用的一個部分的一個資訊"},{"start":218.892,"end":232.298,"text":"因為我們現在討論的是有關於這個資安會不會外洩那當然你說可能這內容都還好因為他還是違反這個相關的自動安全規定所以我們還是會來予以這個溢出"},{"start":234.619,"end":253.124,"text":"是是 OK 那本來就不能夠用這個LINE我剛一直在強調就是一直在問你們就是說到底他用的是私人的手機組的群組還是公務機因為你們有區分嘛你不是有公務機跟私人的手機嗎所以這部分還不了解因為這個是有不同的層級的嚴重性耶"},{"start":254.222,"end":281.684,"text":"跟委員報告我是連六次長針對這些群組是用私人的手機那私人的手機可以按照我們的規定可以建立公務群組來做公務協調那組織的成員他是需要經過單位主管的核定裡面要有治安長還有保防官來確定我們一般做業務協調非機密資訊的內容是才可以做協調機密的資訊是不能不能夠在這個"},{"start":283.985,"end":303.179,"text":"群組裡面上傳的以上報告好 那現在我們還是要檢討這個資安因為我剛才為什麼我會提到說公務跟這個私人我們今年9月24號通過了資通安全法的修正將政府公務及部的使用高風險中資APP的明文正式入法"},{"start":304.039,"end":327.23,"text":"那可是私人的手機並沒有做相關的規範嘛我們只針對公務機嘛那剛剛我們所提到的靈性的這個局長他用的是私人的手機來傳遞那私人的手機可能他會下載一些所謂的剛剛所提到的眾志的APP小紅書啦 微信啊"},{"start":329.125,"end":349.082,"text":"之類的這些軟體也許他的私人的手機或是TikTok等等如果他用這個私人的手機傳Line雖然說你說這可能看起來沒有什麼機密的這個資料可是這個是不是會不會因為他用私人的手機所以呢很有可能這些資料會被"},{"start":353.848,"end":358.241,"text":"上傳到境外的這個伺服器有可能嗎"},{"start":360.29,"end":388.49,"text":"我們 我了解現在的相關規定就剛剛連六次長有提到的就是說有公務學校的需求而設立這些群組的話那奉核定以後呢是可以使用那就傳遞跟業務有關但是沒有涉基民的資訊那另外就要含這個治安長跟保防官嘛那負責管制跟集合這個群組內容然後要所以你們認為說你們已經有充充把關了定期每月來實施清教這樣子"},{"start":390.151,"end":411.89,"text":"所以這個部分是有一個規範的你們覺得這個就不太可能會有把機密這個資料傳送到境外的這個疑慮你們覺得這樣是OK的但是我想各單位還是要我們定期或不定期要來落實督檢這個部分還是要來做"},{"start":412.424,"end":418.386,"text":"我覺得還是要加強 因為你都知道說 現在是有子彈的問題 這個可能要來做檢討再來還有就是預算 這預算的部分當然媒體有說一個200多人的單位 因為它畢竟是一個幕僚單位不是一個作戰單位 它是一個幕僚單位 結果它在"},{"start":437.232,"end":466.227,"text":"這次的這個任性預算裡面他就編了17.5億的這個預算他們就去說 欸 到底因為說實在啦 像這個大氣海洋局像如果不是因為這次爆出了這件事情的話其實很多人都不曉得所謂的我們還有一個大氣海洋局的這個存在因為他來 比如說我們來做這個尋答的時候也沒有做練習之類的所以我們想知道就是說這17.5億的這個編列是合理的嗎"},{"start":469.553,"end":491.522,"text":"委員跟委員報告大氣局主要就是負責我們整個台海周邊我們有關軍事的海域的海洋的監偵水文探測海盜測量還有一個相關的軍用海圖圖資的一個運用還有一個即時對於我們周邊可能的颱風預警跟其他的一個整合"},{"start":492.122,"end":511.012,"text":"那他也負責了我們相關的一個環境的作戰資訊的一個資源所以他這個17.5基本上我們他未來因為他的這個功能跟未來他負擔的角色跟著我們目前的整個這個軍事調整跟任務的調整他就必須在未來的"},{"start":512.172,"end":534.744,"text":"資源情報作戰的一個能力要提升另外它有關的相關的一個圖資跟海域中心的建增所以我們預計是要針對這三個中心來做一個整建那整建的部分所需的部分大概就是主要就17.5億是有一個三個中心的一個設置"},{"start":535.805,"end":563.231,"text":"大概是這樣那如果委員如果比較細部我到底再往您辦公室再去對我覺得這部分可能要解開一些疑慮喔因為現在報導其實還蠻長的尤其報導還提到說他有提到說短時間幾張紙就能騙到好幾億哇 這個是怎樣這個是很誇張了吧抱怨 這個應該是不實報導是不實報導 為什麼呢因為他這個都有證人喔都有什麼A先生 B先生 C先生然後D小姐之類的這些人都是我們"},{"start":564.591,"end":589.601,"text":"都是我們國防部內部的人員嗎這些人有知道是誰講出這些東西那如果是不實的話這些人應該也有法律上的責任吧我們現在目前也是在繼續在清查中但是有有提到他有提到有些他跟某些人比較特定查但是我們也了解他當初那個進到營區來說是一般傷情的一個水下的這一些"},{"start":590.801,"end":612.598,"text":"資料收集跟信號傳輸的傷情他這個傷情基本上跟我剛才講的17.5以3個案子都沒有關係也沒有直接涉入那也沒有相關那這個進入到營運這個人也從來沒有跟大氣局有任何投標或其他的其他的採購的案件那這些的都是一般的一個轉介傷情其實這兩件事情是分開"},{"start":614.419,"end":628.276,"text":"的確是不實的指控所以我們不方便在那邊還沒有結束以前講太多但是今天委員提到我們就必須要做一個比較跟委員做一個陳述那相關這個案子三個案子的一個建案跟規劃我們會到委員在那邊再做一個清楚的報告"},{"start":628.979,"end":652.282,"text":"OK 我是在想說因為這報導真的對整個國軍的傾向其實是有很大的傷害尤其我們現在要省預算我們這種高額的預算我們不能說因為這件事情影響了整體所以這部分如果可以儘早調查 儘早釐清 儘早澄清的我想這部分都要儘早來說清楚"},{"start":652.762,"end":674.14,"text":"好那大家最後一題本來講到就是男女官兵請示混住的這個部分因為你們這邊說其實這個好像也是報導有誤啦好那大家這部分我們大家還希望說不管是國防部也好或各個單位我們還是希望能夠提升這個性別意識跟這個管理的這個水平"},{"start":674.961,"end":699.228,"text":"好那再來呢下一個我可以簡單提一下因為他這邊講是一個聘僱人員的正常的軍事官的男生女生宿舍都是合於規定分開的那他今天講是一個聘僱人員的中午休息的那本來安排是在另外一個正常的地方那個地方應該在那裡但是因為那地方有漏水"},{"start":700.288,"end":719.345,"text":"漏水完之後房間不太適合他們就把它調整在另外一個休息室那那個休息室不是提供住宿只是給住宿那個聘僱的人員中午吃便當休息一下的時候這邊站待那裡有警監走道也有一些安全機制他的東西也可以上鎖其實這個部分並也是不屬實際並沒有說"},{"start":721.367,"end":747.257,"text":"那就是一個中午休息的地方所以嗎 因為我有看到你們的所謂的澄清其實都是輕輕的帶過 很多細節我們也不是不瞭解 只是說 喔 只是講的這些都是不屬實那哪裡不屬實 其實沒人知道我想我們國防部的立場還是 我會請我們總隊長本於勿枉勿縱的精神 我們會來徹查嚴查然後再給社會一個交代"},{"start":747.937,"end":753.905,"text":"對 因為我們覺得說這件事情確實是有重挫國軍的這個形象啦所以還是要儘早來澄清跟說明OK 好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時56分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。部長，有關於前幾天某個週刊踢爆大氣海洋局局長的種種荒謬行為，我看到海軍司令部其實也有出面做了一些澄清，像報導裡面有提到的蒐集演訓時候的機密資訊、擅改春節的戰備輪值，甚至讓中資背景公司入營及營區男女混住等等，這些都是屬於不實的報導，唯一可能就其違反資安規定的部分檢討適處。參謀長剛剛也上來了，你們這個確實都已經做過調查了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在是海軍的初步調查，我已經請國防部總督察長要介入，由國防部的層級來進行整體的調查，我們做完整體調查以後再跟各位委員報告。"],["羅委員美玲：所以目前還在調查當中？我看到的是只有就違反資安規定的部分會來做檢討，那個指控真的是非常的嚴重，結果這些指控現在都變成是不實的，目前要檢討的就只有資安的部分。你們有提到什麼東西是不實的，可是有一個部分我有注意到，就是他公然要求用LINE來傳輸機密部分，但是海軍司令部這邊好像並沒有否認，是不是？確實有做過這個動作嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：關於LINE的部分，當時應該是有設一個群組，但是看起來沒有如外界所講的有涉及到漢光演習……"],["羅委員美玲：不是、不是、不是，我看……"],["顧部長立雄：但他還是違規，是在去年的4月3號就……"],["羅委員美玲：是去年……"],["顧部長立雄：4月3號就已經……"],["羅委員美玲：不是今年7月喔！應該是前一、兩年，在漢光演習以前，他就已經要求把一個……他們好像開了一個會議，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：這個群組就解散了，在去年的……"],["羅委員美玲：對，他們那時候就是跟艦隊指揮部開會，然後要求把這個機密資料傳到他私設的未加密LINE群組，所以這部分是有的，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：有這樣的一個群組，但是在去年的4月3號就已經解散掉了。"],["羅委員美玲：我想請教一下，這個私設的LINE群組是在他自己私人的手機還是公務機？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，這個公務群組其實是針對海上氣象傳遞跟氣象通報資料，這個公務群組是在……"],["羅委員美玲：是公務機還是私人手機？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：依照規定是有簽核來執行，但因為在成立的這四個多月中間，局長可能覺得相關的訊息還是事涉一些比較不太適合公開的，所以在4個月後，他把這個群組關了，後面就會用我們另外的管道來做，因此裡面的機密也不是漢光的機密，只是一個水文蒐集做任務使用、運用的資訊，目前我們都已經……"],["羅委員美玲：OK，我們現在要討論的是有關於資安會不會外洩，當然你說可能這內容都還好。"],["顧部長立雄：因為他還是違反相關的資通安全規定，所以我們還是會予以議處。"],["羅委員美玲：是、OK，本來就不能夠用LINE，我剛一直在問你們的是，到底他用的是私人手機組的群組還是公務機？因為你們有區分嘛！不是有公務機跟私人手機嗎？所以這部分還不了解？因為這個是有不同層級的嚴重性耶！"],["解次長駿山：跟委員報告，我是聯六次長，這些群組是用私人的手機，按照我們的規定，私人的手機可以建立公務群組來做公務協調，組織的成員是需要經過單位主官的核定，裡面要有資安長及保防官，確定一般業務協調是非機敏資訊的內容才可以做協調，機密資訊是不能在群組裡面上傳的，以上報告。"],["羅委員美玲：好，現在我們還是要檢討資安，我剛才為什麼會提到公務跟私人？因為今年9月24號通過了資通安全法的修正，將政府公務機不得使用高風險中資app明文正式入法，可是私人的手機並沒有做相關的規範，我們只針對公務機。剛剛我們所提到的林姓局長，他是用私人的手機來傳遞，私人的手機可能他會下載一些剛剛所提到的中資app，如小紅書、微信之類的這些軟體，或是TikTok等等，如果他用私人的手機傳LINE，雖然你說這可能看起來沒有什麼機敏的資料，因為他用私人手機？所以很有可能這些資料會被上傳到境外的伺服器？有可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：據我了解，剛剛聯六次長有提到，依現在的相關規定，有公務協調的需求而設立群組的話，奉核定後是可以使用，不過就傳遞跟業務有關，但沒有涉機敏的資訊。另外，含資安長跟保防官負責管制並稽核群組內容，然後……"],["羅委員美玲：所以你們認為已經有重重把關了？"],["顧部長立雄：定期每月實施勤教，所以對這部分是有規範的。"],["羅委員美玲：你們覺得不太可能會有機敏資料傳送到境外的疑慮？你們覺得這樣子是OK的？"],["顧部長立雄：我想各單位還需要我們定期或不定期落實督檢，這部分還是要做。"],["羅委員美玲：我覺得還是要加強，因為你知道現在有資安問題，所以這個就是要做檢討。","再來就是預算部分。媒體說一個兩百多人的單位，而且是一個幕僚單位，不是作戰單位，結果竟然在這次韌性預算裡編列了17.5億的預算，說實在的，像大氣海洋局如果不是因為這次爆出這件事情的話，其實很多人都不曉得國防部還有一個大氣海洋局的存在，因為你們來詢答時該局並未派人列席。所以我們想知道這17.5億的編列合理嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。跟委員報告，大氣局主要就是負責臺海周邊有關軍事海域的海洋監偵、水文探測、海道測量，還有軍用海圖圖資的運用，與即時對於周邊可能的颱風預警及其他的整合，同時也負責了與環境作戰資訊相關的支援。所以這17.5億，基本上，鑑於其未來功能與負擔的角色係跟隨整個軍事及任務而調整，所以在未來的支援情報作戰上的能力要提升。基於相關圖資及海域中心的監偵，所以我們預計針對這三個中心來做整建。就整建的部分來說，所需大概就是17.5億，裡頭有三個中心的設置，大概是這樣。如果委員需要比較細部的說明，我待會兒再到您辦公室針對這部分……"],["羅委員美玲：我覺得這部分可能要解開一些疑慮，因為這些報導其實還滿傷的！尤其報導還提到，短時間、幾張紙就能騙到好幾億……這個是怎樣？這個很誇張了吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這應該是不實報導……"],["羅委員美玲：所以是不實報導？為什麼？都有證人了，有什麼A先生、B先生、C先生，然後D小姐之類的，這些人都是國防部內部人員嗎？知道是誰講出這些東西嗎？如果是不實的話，這些人應該也有法律上的責任吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們現在也繼續在清查中，至於提到跟某些人比較特定查……據我們了解，當初之所以進入營區，是一般的水下資料蒐集跟信號傳輸的商情，這個商情跟我剛才講到的17.5億的三個案子沒有關係，沒有直接涉入，進入營區這個人也沒投標任何大氣局的案子或其他的採購案件，都是一般轉介商情，這兩件事情是分開的，確實是不實指控。不過在還沒結束以前，我們不方便講太多，但今天既然委員提到，我們就必須向委員陳述。至於三個中心的建案跟規劃，我們會到委員辦公室再做清楚的報告。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。這報導真的對國軍形象有很大的傷害，尤其我們現在要審預算了，又是這種高額的預算。所以不能因為這件事情影響了整體，因此，這部分如果可以儘早調查、儘早釐清、儘早澄清，那就要儘早說清楚。","最後一題本席要講到男女官兵寢室混住的部分，你們說這也是報導有誤，就這部分，我想不管是國防部或各單位，我們都希望能夠提升性別意識與管理水平。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我可以簡單提一下，這邊講的是聘僱人員，正常的軍士官、男生女生宿舍都是合於規定且分開的，而這邊講的是聘僱人員中午休息……"],["羅委員美玲：中午休息？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：本來是安排在另外一個正常的地方，但因為那個地方漏水，漏水後房間就不太適合，於是就調整到另外的休息室，該休息室不提供住宿，只給聘僱人員中午吃便當、休息一下，可以暫待。那裡有警監，走道也有安全機制，東西也可以上鎖，其實有關這部分陳述也不屬實，那就是一個中午休息的地方，並沒有……"],["羅委員美玲：我有看到你們的澄清，不過都是輕輕帶過，很多細節我們也不了解。雖然講的這些都不屬實，但哪裡不屬實？其實沒人知道！"],["顧部長立雄：以國防部的立場，我還是會請總督察長本於勿枉勿縱的精神來徹查、嚴查，再給社會一個交代。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我們覺得這件事情確實重挫國軍形象，所以還是要儘早澄清跟說明。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3b0c30e3ae2c4f1dacbd78a287304ef9f61e6bfef52f5c093e1b2bb67ee2f385d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:57:11 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那我想請陳部長我們再請陳部長喂好再下一個"},{"start":21.373,"end":43.611,"text":"就是部長我想我主要還是要呼籲大家必須要冷靜理性然後中央跟地方一定要攜手合作來防範這一次的疫情爆發那包括說昨天你們已經宣布說要禁止廚餘養豬那想請問一下說禁止廚餘養豬大概會禁止多久呢"},{"start":43.991,"end":56.041,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在設計這個鏡子圖養豬是用他可能的潛伏期就是15天但是我們每5天會做一個觀察那我想請問一下現在全台灣到底有多少豬隻呢500再養頭數大概是500500"},{"start":62.789,"end":65.993,"text":"505.8萬505.8萬嘛505.8萬請問目前廚藝養豬的大概是多少戶我們這樣講就是廚藝養豬戶有5552場那其中廚藝養豬的有435場35場"},{"start":81.991,"end":85.233,"text":"本席幫你算過了就是全台灣這麼多頭豬只有將近46萬是廚餘養豬所以只佔了全國養豬戶的8%所以你現在告訴我說你不全面禁止廚餘養豬為了這46萬頭要犧牲500多萬頭為了這8%你要讓台灣成為非洲豬瘟的破口嗎"},{"start":110.762,"end":122.872,"text":"不過我想我們現在目前禁止廚餘養豬或者是禁宰禁運最主要是把這個傳播鏈先做斷鏈這就是下一個問題就是下一個問題才會去做移調但是後續的廚餘養豬的政策我想我們會是希望可長可久我們台灣的養豬產業你知道這個一旦爆發之後我本席就問你假設爆發之後會影響整個產值多少"},{"start":137.884,"end":159.557,"text":"以純粹豬產業的話大概800多億但是觀念產業的話超過1000億是吧 本席也幫你算過不只1000億可能1500億也有可能2000億這影響的是全國人民欸可能會打擊非常多人的生計所以在現在你告訴我說到底要禁止廚藝養豬多久"},{"start":160.629,"end":175.126,"text":"我想我們還是以就是15天當作一個所以你覺得先禁止15天為了這8%吃廚餘的這個養豬戶你要只禁止15天因為這8%46萬頭你要影響500"},{"start":179.471,"end":185.896,"text":"50萬頭是嗎550萬頭我還是要跟委員說明齁就是廚藝養豬他如果經過珍珠廠合格的珍珠這個是安全但是他畢竟是一個破口啊你同意嗎你同意他是一個破口嗎他可能是破口之一是吧他就是破口之一他就是一個破口他就是一個破口那這個影響是1000億至2000億的產業你告訴我說為了這8%"},{"start":208.613,"end":226.446,"text":"你要影響這麼多人你堅持不禁止全面禁止廚餘養豬的理由是什麼我沒有說不禁止那我剛才說的你沒有說不禁止就是你要禁止囉我們這個政策我們需要去做滾動檢討那我們現在的策略就是從108年到現在那個廚餘養豬廠從"},{"start":229.648,"end":233.009,"text":"從一千多場變成四百多場 不見得去輔導他轉型那現在告訴你說已經有爆發了你必須立即全面禁止 全面輔導他轉型這個才是你農業部現在手應該要趕快去做的呀你農業部不趕快去做 你告訴我說你15天之後還要觀察"},{"start":253.855,"end":272.174,"text":"你為什麼不能說先進一年先進三年試試看你試試看之後其實很多我們台灣的黑豬其實吃豆料也是可以我再問你下一個問題就是染上病毒的這些豬隻到底有沒有流入市場"},{"start":274.403,"end":301.105,"text":"以我們現在的觀察我們是在病死豬去檢測到的但是從我們的疫調過程中他過程中所以你也不確定說染上這個非洲豬瘟的豬隻到底有沒有流入市場是嗎屠宰場出來都會 屠宰前 屠宰後都會進貨位所以有掌握最新的流向嗎有掌握最新的流向說到底這個病死豬我們沒有病死豬流到屠宰場"},{"start":302.56,"end":324.793,"text":"真正的屠宰進到那個肉餅市場都會那個圖前跟圖後都由獸醫師檢查所以這個部分都是安全的我想消費者不要疑慮所以也呼籲消費者絕對不要擔心絕對不要擔心因為他是不會傳染給人的 是不是 是所以另外我也想要請問一下國內那現在目前有豬肉短缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":326.927,"end":350.163,"text":"現在因為我們禁運了以後那短時間之內市場上的這些需求我們都是用冷凍的方式所以會啟動就是進口國外的豬肉嗎我們現在冷凍我們協調冷凍工業冷凍廠來供應第一個最重要的學童午餐第二個就是我們的一些市場所以我們的庫存量大概有將近26到一個月的時間本席在這裡提醒你"},{"start":350.743,"end":368.804,"text":"你假設要從國外進口你也要檢查非洲豬瘟的這個病菌因為他在冷凍肉品裡面是可以生存將近1000天的所以這個也是我們必須要防堵的可是呢再回過頭來包括邊境管制假設你全面禁止廚餘養豬"},{"start":370.566,"end":392.514,"text":"你邊境管制就可以就不用那麼緊張你知道嗎這是一個雞生蛋誕生肌的問題你如果假設禁止全面廚餘養豬邊境管制大家帶進來就不會那麼緊張我跟委員報告就是非得豬的傳播不只是廚餘可能人體我知道所以還有很多"},{"start":392.874,"end":405.328,"text":"我知道但是禁止廚餘養豬是已經可以降低風險很多包括我們雲林縣早在七年前張立善縣長上任的時候他就全面禁止廚餘養豬那個時候就也有呼籲當時的農委會的主委陳吉仲"},{"start":411.275,"end":425.394,"text":"那時候就呼籲陳吉仲主委說應該全面禁止廚藥養豬圍堵這件事情嘛那所以現在有很多的鄉親喔另外還有要講的就是假設真的未來爆發了就是要"},{"start":426.715,"end":437.159,"text":"撲殺補助的部分我們還是希望說這個是個案但是我們必須要料敵從寬未來如果進行撲殺本席建議必須要從優從寬的原則比照當初禽流感的這個模式喔你一定主動通報的機制然後依據市場價格進行全場全額補助的這樣的機制因為我們不能讓農民為了配合防疫而造成他重大的損失那這更是為了"},{"start":456.147,"end":465.7,"text":"鼓勵農民主動通報的一個重大機制不要避免說他為了隱瞞然後不通報而造成的這個死角 這個部長認同嗎"},{"start":467.089,"end":489.586,"text":"我想如果不是市主刻意隱瞞我們做全場撲殺的部分一定有我們相關的撲殺經費那第二個部分就是飼料的部分我剛才講的我們會去做一個滾動的檢討因為現在目前除以養豬的大縣就包括新北桃園台中新竹然後還有屏東這幾個大縣因為除以養豬可是只有46萬頭啊"},{"start":491.527,"end":495.25,"text":"可是他吃廚餘的也只有45萬頭啊這些養豬大縣裡面也只有全國加起來只有46萬頭佔全國豬隻的8%因為這8%造成了影響上千億的這個產業鏈的風險你覺得值得嗎沒有 我剛才說的"},{"start":512.403,"end":527.111,"text":"風險是有來自不同的我再提醒一下部長我們會逐步的去調整我再提醒一下部長說假設不幸真的爆發我們必須撲殺那後續這些株枝的處理你們怎麼處理因為目前台灣只有"},{"start":527.791,"end":548.365,"text":"五個化智場 只有五個縣市有五個縣市有九個化智場只有宜蘭彰化雲林台東屏東五個縣市有化智場那怎麼辦呢是不是中央要有統一協調撲殺後株枝的處理辦法否則如果假設二度污染怎麼辦我現在本席"},{"start":549.326,"end":557.729,"text":"不是要挑戰農業部或者是要給你們找麻煩我們現在是希望大家一起攜手把這些事情有可能會發生的我們預先把這些機制擬出來其實這也會相當程度安定我們豬農的心非常謝謝委員這樣的一個建議特別在化製廠的部分"},{"start":570.054,"end":597.823,"text":"像昨天我就特別提到因為台東現在比較比較看起來是疫區嘛所以台東市的豬一定不會流到其他縣市然後第二個部分就是現有的9家的化製廠本身我們都希望過透過聯合調度的方式大家縣市彼此放掉彼此擔心的那個然後就是接納其他的縣市的部分那後續因為以現在的量大概一年可以處理100萬頭但是如果緊急的時候那怎麼辦"},{"start":598.923,"end":624.362,"text":"所以我們就必須做一個當緊急有緊急方式的目前有很多豬農給本席反應就是說有沒有可能補助他們小型的焚化的器具讓他們可以就地焚化但是這個當然我覺得要專家評估這個叫做生物處理機那這個部分我們絕對會來考慮我們絕對會來考慮因為在場裡面做生物處理的方式因為它移動還是有風險的所以這一點可能請部長"},{"start":625.943,"end":630.464,"text":"薛議員的建議像這個生物處理機我們會來考慮我最後還是想跟部長說就是防疫視同作戰那中央跟地方包括我們委員會包括整個立法院我想都全力的支持你一定要用最謹慎最快的速度還有決心來守護這些豬農還有守護所有消費者的餐桌安全"},{"start":648.025,"end":658.314,"text":"謝謝 我想中央跟地方一定要充分合作還有包括全國的消費者或者豬農我們一起來努力我相信一起努力的話我們會把疫情降到最低的一個風險是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":203,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時57分）主席，謝謝，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我主要還是呼籲大家必須要冷靜理性，中央跟地方一定要攜手合作來防範這一次的疫情爆發，包括昨天你們已經宣布要禁止廚餘養豬，請問一下禁止廚餘養豬大概會禁止多久呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們在設計禁止廚餘養豬是用可能的潛伏期15天，但是每5天會做觀察。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想請問一下現在全臺灣到底有多少豬隻呢？"],["陳部長駿季：在養頭數大概505.8萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：505.8萬嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：505.8萬。請問目前廚餘養豬的大概是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們這樣講，就是養豬戶有5,552場，其中廚餘養豬的有435場，大概不到……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席幫你算過了，就是全臺灣這麼多頭豬，只有將近46萬是廚餘養豬，所以只占了全國養豬戶的8%。"],["陳部長駿季：對，8%。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在告訴我，你不全面禁止廚餘養豬，為了這46萬頭要犧牲五百多萬頭，為了這8%要讓臺灣成為非洲豬瘟的破口嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：目前禁止廚餘養豬或者是禁宰禁運，最主要是把傳播鏈先斷鏈，才能夠做疫調……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是下一個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：但是後續的廚餘養豬政策，我們會去做……"],["張委員嘉郡：是希望可長可久啊！針對臺灣的養豬產業，你知道一旦爆發之後……本席就問你，假設爆發之後會影響整個產值多少？"],["陳部長駿季：純粹豬產業的話大概八百多億，但是關聯產業的話超過1,000億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧！本席也幫你算過，不只1,000億，可能1,500億，也有可能2,000億，這影響的是全國人民！可能會打擊非常多人的生計，現在你告訴我，到底要禁止廚餘養豬多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是以15天當作一個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你覺得先禁止15天，為了這8%吃廚餘的養豬戶，你要只禁止15天，因為這8%、46萬頭，你要影響550萬頭，是嗎？550萬頭。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是跟委員說明，廚餘養豬部分如果經過蒸煮場合格的蒸煮，這個廚餘是安全的……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是它畢竟是一個破口啊！你同意嗎？你同意它是一個破口嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：它可能是破口之一，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧！它就是破口之一、它就是一個破口，影響的是1,000億至2,000億的產業，你告訴我為了這8%，要影響這麼多人，你堅持不全面禁止廚餘養豬的理由是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有說不禁止，我剛才說的我本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：你沒有說不禁止，就是你要禁止喔！"],["陳部長駿季：這個政策需要滾動檢討，我們現在的策略就是從108年到現在，廚餘養豬場從一千多場變成四百多場……"],["張委員嘉郡：是嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：逐漸地輔導它轉型，這是一個……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！你在輔導它轉型，現在告訴你已經有爆發了，必須立即全面禁止、全面輔導它轉型，這個才是農業部現在首要應該趕快去做的呀！農業部不趕快去做，你告訴我說15天之後還要觀察，為什麼不能先禁一年、先禁三年試試看，很多我們臺灣的黑豬其實吃豆料也是可以……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，非洲豬瘟本身的防範不一定是……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問你下一個問題，染上病毒的這些豬隻到底有沒有流入市場？"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的觀察，我們是在病死豬檢測到的，但是從疫調過程中有……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也不確定染上非洲豬瘟的豬隻到底有沒有流入市場，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：若是從屠宰場出來，屠宰前、屠宰後都會經過衛生……"],["張委員嘉郡：有掌握最新的流向嗎？到底這個病死豬……"],["陳部長駿季：我們有掌握，沒有病死豬流到屠宰場，真正被屠宰進到肉品市場的豬肉，屠前跟屠後都會由獸醫師檢查，所以這個部分都是安全的，我想消費者不要有疑慮。"],["張委員嘉郡：也呼籲消費者絕對不要擔心，因為它是不會傳染給人的，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：另外，我也想要請問一下，國內目前有豬肉短缺的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在因為我們禁運，短時間之內市場上的這些需求我們都是由冷凍的方式……"],["張委員嘉郡：會啟動進口國外的豬肉嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，現在我們協調冷凍公會、冷凍廠來供應，第一個是最重要的學童午餐，第二個就是一些市場，我們的庫存量大概有將近26天到一個月的時間。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席在這裡提醒你，假設你要從國外進口，你也要檢查非洲豬瘟的病菌，因為它在冷凍肉品裡面可以生存將近1,000天，所以這個也是我們必須要防堵的。","再回過頭來，假設你全面禁止廚餘養豬，對於邊境管制就不用那麼緊張，你知道嗎？這是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，你如果全面禁止廚餘養豬，在邊境管制的部分，大家如果帶進來就不會那麼緊張。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，非洲豬瘟的傳播不只是廚餘，可能由人體、人的帶動……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道。"],["陳部長駿季：所以會有很多的可能。"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但是禁止廚餘養豬已經可以降低很多風險，包括我們雲林縣，早在七年前張麗善縣長上任的時候，他就全面禁止廚餘養豬，那個時候也有呼籲當時農委會的主委陳吉仲應該全面禁止廚餘養豬、圍堵這件事情，所以現在有很多的鄉親……","另外，假設未來真的爆發了，需要給予撲殺補助，我們還是希望這個是個案，但是我們必須要料敵從寬，未來如果進行撲殺，本席建議必須要採從優、從寬的原則，比照當初禽流感的模式，擬定主動通報的機制，然後依據市場價格進行全場、全額的補助，因為我們不能讓農民為了配合防疫而造成重大的損失，這更是為了鼓勵農民主動通報的一個重大機制，避免他為了隱瞞、不通報而造成死角，這個部長認同嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想如果不是飼主刻意隱瞞，我們做全場撲殺的部分，一定有相關的補殺經費。第二個就是飼料的部分，我剛才講我們會去滾動檢討，因為目前廚餘養豬的大縣，包括新北、桃園、臺中、新竹、屏東這幾個大縣，因為廚餘養豬……"],["張委員嘉郡：可是吃廚餘的只有46萬頭啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會去加強……"],["張委員嘉郡：在這些養豬大縣裡面，全國加起來也只有46萬頭，占全國豬隻的8%，因為這8%造成上千億的產業鏈產生風險，你覺得值得嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我剛才說風險是來自不同的因素……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再提醒一下部長……"],["陳部長駿季：我同意我們會逐步去調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：我再提醒一下部長，假設不幸真的爆發，我們必須撲殺，對於後續這些豬隻的處理，你們怎麼處理？因為目前臺灣只有5個化製場……"],["陳部長駿季：9個化製場。"],["張委員嘉郡：只有5個縣市有9個化製場，只有宜蘭、彰化、雲林、臺東、屏東5個縣市有化製場，那怎麼辦呢？是不是中央要有統一協調撲殺後豬隻的處理辦法，否則如果二度污染怎麼辦？現在本席不是要挑戰農業部，或者是要找你們麻煩，我們現在是希望大家一起攜手把有可能會發生的事情，預先把這些機制擬出來。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：其實這也會相當程度安定我們豬農的心，讓他們知道……"],["陳部長駿季：我想非常謝謝委員這樣的建議，特別在化製場的部分，像昨天我就特別提到，因為臺中現在看起來比較是疫區，所以臺中市的豬一定不會流到其他縣市。第二，現有9家化製場，我們希望透過聯合調度的方式，各縣市放掉對彼此擔心的心理，接納其他縣市的部分，因為以現在的量能，大概一年可以處理100萬頭，但是如果緊急的時候一定不夠……"],["張委員嘉郡：那怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們就必須做一個緊急時的緊急處理方式。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前有很多豬農跟本席反映，有沒有可能補助他們小型的焚化器具，讓他們可以就地焚化？但是我覺得這個要專家評估。"],["陳部長駿季：這個叫做生物處理機，這個部分我們絕對會來考慮，因為在場裡面做生物處理的方式比較容易。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為他移動還是有風險的，所以這一點可能請部長……"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的建議，像這個生物處理機，我們會來考慮。"],["張委員嘉郡：我最後還是想跟部長說，防疫視同作戰，中央跟地方，包括我們委員會、包括整個立法院，我想都全力的支持你，一定要用最謹慎、最快的速度還有決心來守護這些豬農，還有守護所有消費者的餐桌安全。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝，我想中央跟地方一定要充分合作，還有包括全國的消費者或是豬農，我們一起來努力，我相信一起努力的話，我們會把疫情降到最低的風險。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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對不對所以說這個改版是因應整個科技的進步所以一定要先做就拖了那麼久那到底這次改版我想要問一下總裁到底會花多少錢"},{"start":54.798,"end":56.78,"text":"我們這邊有講就是說每一張我們會增加1.5塊總數啦譬如講你們在2018年就有一個內部官方說改版要450億就是說這個總數到目前我們很難去評估它啦就是說因為它"},{"start":71.113,"end":80.2,"text":"我們的鈔券它的使用量會慢慢地遞減所以這個也很難去掌握我現在就是說在2018年你們曾經為了改版估計了450億的改版的總經費那是全部回收跟全部換算我覺得那個真的是估計得太誇張了我跟委員報告一來要如實但是除了這個之外"},{"start":100.494,"end":120.888,"text":"第二個要實用 為什麼因為一般而言台幣跟日幣不一樣日幣最近20年之後就改版了台幣跟日幣有一個不好用的地方就太大張 太大張因為台幣的部分日幣的高度是76公分 76mm然後另外長度是100到160mm可是新台幣是70"},{"start":129.79,"end":141.711,"text":"然後長度是145到165但美鈔的部分都是一樣的美鈔規格它不論是幣值多少都一樣那我們其實可以考慮把這個"},{"start":144.571,"end":147.894,"text":"以後的鈔票的面積稍微縮小一來好用 二來環保三來又可以節省成本我不曉得總裁你這樣建議怎麼樣我覺得委員的想法本來我們在這邊是寫那個尺寸不變不過我總覺得因為我們有執行委員會執行委員"},{"start":168.154,"end":170.276,"text":"事實上委員你這個概念你這個建立我覺得也是蠻大家的皮夾都越來越少使用的機率越來越少我們發行局的局長在這裡我們的印製廠的同事也在這邊"},{"start":191.677,"end":219,"text":"他都聽得到所以我覺得委員的這個建議我覺得是滿好的因為你的報告是越環保化減少紙張的面積就是越環保而且還省錢你只要用顏色做一個區隔就好了不是嗎是 我們來研究這個我們來考量你現在流通量現在為止已經每日大概3.5兆了對不對 是差不多嘛"},{"start":221.381,"end":238.826,"text":"然後硬幣的部分是1400也就是隨著電子支付的話整個紙鈔的使用率已經逐年下降了是不是那我還再問一個問題但是在流通的過程當中你有沒有去看過這個面額流通數最少的是哪一個"},{"start":239.546,"end":243.61,"text":"大概是200塊200跟2000對不對200跟2000這個流通這麼低你們還會想要考慮再印製嗎我跟委員報告事實上各個國家它對於二各個國家的紙鈔二的流通力都不高"},{"start":259.184,"end":261.607,"text":"對 但是二他是一個搭配事實上這個問題我們內部我們也自己有考量過事實上有一些我記得我們上次有委員去我們的印製廠考察的時候"},{"start":277.366,"end":297.697,"text":"有一些的委員到認為就是說這個200塊是很好用的因為那個成本他可以總裁我這邊全部美金的面額我都有一個2的就是有20元也沒有200的不 他的200就很大了那200 他的200乘以我們的30就相當於多少"},{"start":298.177,"end":308.821,"text":"沒有 沒有啦 我說麵這個麵 紫草的麵沒兩百的啦是啊 日本也沒兩萬的嘛 對不對為什麼一定要一個兩千的呢日本有兩千的啦沒有兩萬 我說沒有兩萬的啦他們二也只有一個而已嘛你又一個兩百 又一個兩千那個流通率都很低就不用考慮了啦我們再考量啦 考量一下好不好委員的今天的建議啊我總覺得我們都會可以納入參考啦"},{"start":328.207,"end":334.832,"text":"我也不是說現在馬上就說這個不是對 用實用面的角度來思考好不好用實用面的角度另外一個幣是未來的幣就穩定幣的部分那穩定幣現在可能是省時又便利因為現在的這個跨境交易大概1到5天然後手續費大概0.2到甚至到50美元穩定幣的手續費大概0.1"},{"start":353.466,"end":371.276,"text":"但是它会不会冲击到既有目前这一个金融业的跨境汇兑的业务因为毕竟美元占有这一个台湾整体的国际汇兑的部分高达97美元是应该是稳定币就想要绑定的货币"},{"start":372.116,"end":393.727,"text":"這個部分的衝擊你們有沒有評估委員的意思就是說是評估就是說對 它會之後就會減少這些現在既有的跨境交易委員的意思就是說它現在穩定幣的跨境的支付如果穩定幣發行之後取代力會不會很高會不會衝擊會來取代SWIFT的跨境你們的意思就是我在想你們要評估"},{"start":401.731,"end":417.84,"text":"對 如果委員我跟委員報告如果穩定幣如果說大家都認為它好用的話當然有一部分會取代一定會取代嘛對 有一部分會取代但是前提要出來就是說第一個它成功而且它好用"},{"start":418.18,"end":439.623,"text":"对 前提是这样子你要先考虑一个第二个考虑要入法也就是我们管理外汇条例当中现在没有稳定币只有外国货币或票据或者有价证券 对不对是不是要考虑入法现在我们的 报告委员现在有啊我们的那个虚拟资产服务法这个里面它就会入法"},{"start":440.243,"end":458.79,"text":"这个入在这个虚拟资产扶持法当中第三还有一个整个国际流通的过程当中会发现所谓的伪造 冒用或篡改它还有一个属于在做一个监控那未来稳定币的部分有没有可能需要类似的机构"},{"start":460.731,"end":471.836,"text":"我想在虛擬資產服務法那邊的執法我們會跟金管會好好的去溝通你們就一起討論這是你們共同業務本席是做一個提醒是 沒有錯 委員講得沒有錯"},{"start":477.839,"end":499.457,"text":"你央行的報告當中的這個估計未來的GDP所佔有的這個成長率相對而言4.5那平均其他的地方都是5.02你說是12月份的時候你們還會再做考量沒有錯但是我是說你們在之前的這個報告當中有一個滿有趣的報告的表就是說"},{"start":500.417,"end":511.129,"text":"製造業對經濟成長貢獻大佔GDP的比重是2.68那同時引起話題的是營造工程業只有0.07不動產是0.06"},{"start":515.533,"end":529.102,"text":"這些行業就很不服氣啊明明他們是火車頭看起來好像央行的總裁跟他打臉說他們根本不是火車頭是不是 你意思是不是這樣子沒有意思我們沒有這個意思這數字上呈現出來的意思是這樣子啊我跟委員報告四少葉才是火車頭不是嗎貢獻的比例最高2.86啊我跟委員報告啦事實上這個"},{"start":539.588,"end":541.83,"text":"我們只是說看到一個社論還有報紙有一些的報紙都在說就是說我們的不動產業是經濟的火車頭我們一直覺得就是說這個概念可能要稍微要澄清一下要澄清"},{"start":560.208,"end":567.291,"text":"因為不是嘛 所以才要澄清嘛不是針對他澄清嘛 你就主要澄清事實上不是嘛 對不對沒有 對 每一個產業都重要委員 每一個產業都重要我們只是說對那個它的貢獻是怎麼樣這主要是在這裡你12月份的時候會不會再公佈一次不會啦 為什麼不會為什麼6月公佈 12月就不公佈"},{"start":584.397,"end":607.355,"text":"不不不 因為我總覺得你的GDP未來不是12月要重新評估嗎重新評估的時候讓國人知道說哪些行業對這一個國家的GDP貢獻比較大這有什麼不好對啦 當然啦你就是怕人家打臉說你打臉你才不好意思公布嘛那你就據實公布有什麼關係呢是啦 沒有"},{"start":608.055,"end":621.075,"text":"是啦 沒有錯我們只是說據時來公佈這些對啦 就是這個意思啦好不好 12月再公佈一次我們考慮考慮啦你考慮一下嘛 考慮考慮最後的部分我還有一個小問題要問"},{"start":623.498,"end":637.006,"text":"最近這個外資我不要說我們去猜測到底那個估黃金的價格但是目前為止我們央行所持有的黃金的這個噸數公噸數總高達是424公噸全球算排行第15名"},{"start":645.991,"end":661.705,"text":"价大约是1.8兆台币1.8兆台币但是成本据说只有一千多亿而已是那个获利将近十倍以上是 没有错这个东西有没有可能卖或是只买不卖"},{"start":662.245,"end":665.727,"text":"我不曉得這個央行現在的態度是怎麼樣我們不賣啦但是我們也有考量到如果說我們的外匯存底足夠多的話那我們也考量就是說要買再買要再買但是現在目前我給委員一個你是外資足夠多不是 我們的外匯存底如果說足夠多的話我們考慮再買考慮再買 這是一個嘛另外一個"},{"start":689.998,"end":712.411,"text":"当初央行其实有超过七成的时候是在70年代的时候为了平衡台美贸易这个顺差所迈进的现在问题是重新出现我们顺差这么多现在台美正在面临这个谈判问题你之前写的报告就说这农产品好 能源要采买 薰构这就可以平衡顺差"},{"start":713.892,"end":731.164,"text":"這一步這麼好用 你為什麼不用沒有 後來你用過雖然就是說用過但是美國不承認不承認不承認說用黃金這明明報告當中是寫的就是用這種方式來購買黃金來平衡貿易順差然後你現在不承認當時我們買的是動機是這樣但是美國不承認當時是沒有承認當時沒有承認但是有沒有實質的效果"},{"start":738.909,"end":765.523,"text":"當然我們買進來了以後他的評價越來越高那是有效果沒有 有效果如果可以平衡順差的話為什麼不考慮一個方法他沒有平衡順差的那個效果沒有辦法效果沒有這個效果如果有效果就會考慮他不承認啦有效果就會考慮是啦 那當然啦現在的黃金就是維持如果有效果的話我們會會考慮 好那就好好考慮啦那現在黃金的部分就是維持只買不賣是啦 是啦謝謝總長"},{"start":767.345,"end":768.853,"text":"好 謝謝郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時49分）主席，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：總裁你好。這一次臺幣要改版，我個人認為時間真的是太慢了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：因為主要的國家大概都是16年到24年。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：這個時間點再加個兩年半到2028，前前後後拖了28年！主要國家中大概我們是最慢的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：更何況美國的話大概是5到7年就會小局部的改版，為了什麼？就是為了防偽，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：改版是因應整個科技的進步，所以一定要先做，結果拖了那麼久。關於這次改版，我想要問一下總裁到底會花多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這邊有講，就是每一張會增加1.5塊。"],["郭委員國文：對，總數啦！你在2018年就有一個內部會議說改版要450億。"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛我也講過，這個總數到目前我們很難去評估它。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我們的鈔券使用量會慢慢遞減。"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這個也很難掌握。"],["郭委員國文：我現在就是說，在2018年你們曾經為了改版估計了450億的改版總經費。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：那是全部回收跟全部換算，我覺得那個真的是估計得太誇張了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：一來要如實，但是除了這個之外，第二個是要實用，為什麼呢？因為一般而言，臺幣跟日幣不一樣，日幣最近是20年之後就改版了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：臺幣跟日幣有一個不好用的地方就是太大張。日幣的高度是76mm、長度100到160mm，可是新臺幣是70，長度是145到165。而美鈔的部分都是一樣的，美鈔的規格不論幣值多少都是一樣的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：我們其實可以考慮，把以後的鈔票面積稍微縮小。一來好用，二來環保，三來又可以節省成本。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，我這樣的建議怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我覺得委員的這個想法，本來我們在這邊是寫尺寸不變，不過我總覺得因為我們有諮詢委員會、諮詢委員，事實上委員你這個概念、你這個建議我覺得也是蠻……"],["郭委員國文：大家的皮夾都越來越小。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這個我們……"],["郭委員國文：使用的機率會越來越少。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們發行局的局長在這裡，印製廠的總經理也在這邊。"],["郭委員國文：對，都在這邊。"],["楊總裁金龍：他都聽得到，所以委員的這個建議，我覺得是蠻好的。"],["郭委員國文：因為你的報告是越環保化，減少紙張的面積就是越環保，而且可以省錢。你只要用顏色做區隔就好了，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們來研究，這個我們來考量。"],["郭委員國文：對，流通量到現在為止，已經每日大概3.5兆了，對不對？差不多嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：硬幣的部分是1,400，也就是隨著電子支付的話，整個紙鈔的使用率已經逐年下降了，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：我再問一個問題，但是在流通的過程當中，你有沒有去看過流通數最少的面額是哪一個？"],["楊總裁金龍：大概是200塊。"],["郭委員國文：200跟2,000，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：2,000的還好。"],["郭委員國文：200跟2,000的流通率這麼低，你們還會考慮再印製啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上各個國家的紙鈔，「2」的流通率都不高。"],["郭委員國文：對，那幹嘛印製？"],["楊總裁金龍：但「2」的是一個搭配，事實上這個問題我們內部自己也考量過，我記得上次有委員去我們印製廠考察的時候，有一些委員倒認為200塊是很好用的，因為那個成本可以……"],["郭委員國文：美金的全部面額我這邊都有，「2」的就只有20元，也沒有200的。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，他的200就很大了……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，並沒有……"],["楊總裁金龍：他的200，乘以30就相當於我們的多少了！"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我說紙鈔的面額沒有200的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊……"],["郭委員國文：日本也沒有2萬的，對吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有……"],["郭委員國文：那為什麼一定要用2,000的呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：日本有2,000的。"],["郭委員國文：我說沒有2萬。"],["楊總裁金龍：喔！不過……"],["郭委員國文：他們的「2」也只有一個而已。而你用一個是200、一個是2,000，那個流通率都很低，就不用考量了。"],["楊總裁金龍：那我們再考量。"],["郭委員國文：考量一下，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員今天的建議，我總覺得我們都可以納入參考。"],["郭委員國文：對，這個……"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不是現在馬上就說這個不……"],["郭委員國文：對，你用實用面的角度來思考，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，可以，非常好，我們都會接受。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個是未來的幣，就是穩定幣的部分。穩定幣可能是省時又便利，因為現在的跨境交易大概1到5天，手續費大概0.2，甚至到50美元，而穩定幣的手續費大概0.1。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：但是它會不會衝擊到目前既有的金融業跨境匯兌業務，因為畢竟美元占有臺灣整體國際匯兌的部分高達97%，美元應該是穩定幣想要綁定的貨幣，這個部分的衝擊，你們有沒有評估？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的意思是？評估就是……"],["郭委員國文：對，之後就會減少現在既有的這些跨境交易。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的意思就是現在穩定幣的跨境支付……"],["郭委員國文：穩定幣發行之後啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：未來會不會取代SWIFT的跨境，你的意思是這樣？"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我在想啦……"],["郭委員國文：你們要評估一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我跟委員報告，如果大家都認為穩定幣好用的話，當然有一部分會取代SWIFT。"],["郭委員國文：一定會取代嘛！這是考量其中嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是前提是，第一個它成功，而且它好用。"],["郭委員國文：對，前提是這樣子，那你要先考慮這一個。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：第二個是考慮要入法，也就是我們管理外匯條例當中現在沒有穩定幣，只有外國貨幣、票據或者有價證券，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：是不是要考慮入法？這些都要具備啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，現在有啊！我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面，它就會入法。"],["郭委員國文：入在虛擬資產服務法當中？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：第三個，整個國際流通的過程當中，會發現所謂的偽造、冒用或竄改，它還有一個SWIFT在做監控，未來穩定幣的部分有沒有可能需要類似的機構？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想在虛擬資產服務法那邊的子法，我們會跟金管會好好的溝通……"],["郭委員國文：你們就一起討論，這是你們共同業務。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們做一個彙整。"],["郭委員國文：本席是做一個提醒。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員講得沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：另外，央行的報告當中估計未來GDP所占有的成長率，相對而言是4.5%，平均其他的都是5.02%，你說是12月份的時候，你們還會再做考量？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：但是我是說你們在之前的報告當中，有一個報告的表滿有趣的，就是製造業對經濟成長貢獻大，占GDP的比重是2.68%，同時引起話題的是營造工程業只有0.07%，不動產是0.06%。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：這些行業就很不服氣啊，明明他們是火車頭，看起來好像央行總裁給它打臉，說他們根本不是火車頭，你的意思是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們沒有這個意思。"],["郭委員國文：這數字上呈現出來的意思……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：製造業才是火車頭不是嗎？貢獻的比例最高，2.86%啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上，我們只是看到一個社論，還有一些報紙都在說我們的不動產業是經濟的火車頭，我們一直覺得這個概念可能要稍微要澄清一下。"],["郭委員國文：要澄清嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，要澄清，我們沒有說……"],["郭委員國文：因為不是，所以才要澄清。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不是要針對它。"],["郭委員國文：你們是要澄清，事實上不是嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，每一個產業都重要，委員，每一個產業都重要，我們只是說它的貢獻是怎麼樣，主要是在這裡。"],["郭委員國文：12月份的時候你會不會再公布一次？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦。"],["郭委員國文：為什麼不會？為什麼6月公布，12月就不公布？"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不、不，因為我總覺得……"],["郭委員國文：GDP未來不是12月要重新評估嗎？重新評估的時候讓國人知道哪些行業對國家的GDP貢獻比較大，這有什麼不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，當然啦……"],["郭委員國文：你就是怕人家說你打臉，你才不好意思公布嘛，那你就據實公布有什麼關係呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，沒有錯，我們只是據實公布。"],["郭委員國文：據實公布有什麼關係呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，就是這個意思啦。"],["郭委員國文：好不好？12月再公布一次。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們考慮、考慮。"],["郭委員國文：你考慮一下嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：考慮、考慮。"],["郭委員國文：最後的部分，我還有一個小問題要問，最近的外資，我不要說我們去猜測、估黃金的價格。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：但是目前為止，我們央行所持有黃金的公噸數高達424公噸，全球算排行第15名，市價大約是1.8兆臺幣，但是成本據說只有一千多億而已，獲利將近10倍以上。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：這個東西有沒有可能賣或是只買不賣，我不曉得央行現在的態度是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不賣啦，但是我們也有考量到如果我們的外匯存底足夠多的話，我們也考量要買……"],["郭委員國文：再買？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，要再買。我要給委員……"],["郭委員國文：但是目前外資足夠多？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我們的外匯存底如果足夠多的話……"],["郭委員國文：夠多的話，考慮再買？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們考慮再買。"],["郭委員國文：再買？這是一個嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個，當初央行其實有超過七成是在70年代的時候，為了平衡臺美貿易順差所買進的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：現在問題是重新出現，我們順差這麼多，現在臺美正在面臨談判問題，你之前寫的報告就說農產品好、能源要採買，還有軍購，這就可以平衡順差。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：這一步這麼好用，你為什麼不用？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，後來……"],["郭委員國文：你用過啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：雖然用過，但是美國不承認。"],["郭委員國文：不承認？"],["楊總裁金龍：不承認用黃金……"],["郭委員國文：不承認？明明報告當中寫你們就是用這種方式購買黃金來平衡貿易順差，然後你現在不承認。"],["楊總裁金龍：當時我們買的動機是這樣，但是美國不承認，當時是沒有承認的。"],["郭委員國文：當時沒有承認？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：但是有沒有實質的效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們買進來了以後評價越來越高，就是有效果。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！有效果，如果可以平衡順差的話，為什麼不考慮這個作法？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，它沒有平衡順差的效果。"],["郭委員國文：沒有辦法有效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：沒有這個效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為他不承認。"],["郭委員國文：如果有效果就會考慮？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然啦！"],["郭委員國文：所以現在黃金就是維持……"],["楊總裁金龍：如果有效果的話，我們會。"],["郭委員國文：會考慮？那就好好考慮，現在黃金的部分就是維持只買不賣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦、是啦。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3d25c29dfa88b8e94cbd78a287304ef9f3bd93a97ab14671338f9d5c79002bdd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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還有關務署這個"},{"start":28.615,"end":54.508,"text":"昨天22號這個農業部的新聞特別提到檢驗非洲豬瘟病毒核酸呈陽性反應所以你們很快的去做了很多的這個相關的緊急的防疫的作為所以從這個報告裡面說非洲豬瘟"},{"start":56.4,"end":81.8,"text":"所以主要還是境外昨天22號你們也開了記者會然後相關的新聞提到這些這裡面都沒有提到防範境外當然先救國內的都沒有問題"},{"start":84.278,"end":103.171,"text":"當然今天的你的報告就提到了第一個就是加強民眾防檢疫的意思當然昨天很多的媒體或者是媒體比較沒有了主要是一些網路一直在網傳國民黨在這個刪檢"},{"start":109.555,"end":137.171,"text":"114年度房檢署的梅仙的預算事實上那個都是錯誤的因為國民黨最後通過的所提案的並沒有提這個案是測案所以這個部分然後今天也有很多昨天也有很多網路在傳追加預算的時候也刪事實上追加預算的時候"},{"start":138.692,"end":163.234,"text":"所刪減的這是三個黨團都同意的除了外交部的保持維持這個最佳預算之外其他的都是三個黨團都同意的所以這個部分其實我們最重要的還是我現在你今天的報告裡面提到的民眾的先導"},{"start":165.55,"end":193.985,"text":"這個恐怕不是用媒體去報導就好了很重要的就是我們的國人出國的時候你就告訴他你就一張紙給他去國外不要買什麼東西回來最重要的是這個他才會因為很多而且你要告訴他你買了東西你要仔細看"},{"start":195.56,"end":222.783,"text":"里面是不是有猪很重要的是这样一般人民出去买东西也不会去看细项他含的是什么通常也不会所以无论是农业部房检署或者是公务署都要朝这方面去努力防范境外"},{"start":224.465,"end":249.839,"text":"第二个你提到针对39个国家高风险国家入境旅客X光机100%检查行李到底有没有这样做房间署跟公务署如果我们看这个这一些媒体的新闻报道这是去年的12月15号事实上就没有啊"},{"start":252.318,"end":280.314,"text":"沒有完全的全部的來去做徹底的來去檢查事實上如果這樣的這個報導是正確的話事實上是沒有那我們怎麼樣應該要防範於境外這個才是最重要的好這裡面你提到除了旅客輸入"},{"start":281.618,"end":308.743,"text":"另外就是电商电商平台卖家这个怎么样去做最有效的去检查你这边都提到了防范查记遗传走失这个这些你都提了那怎么样去落实因为已经进来了之后怎么样去就很难了"},{"start":309.656,"end":334.792,"text":"有它的難度了所以境外防範與境外因為畢竟它是從國外來的所以這個部分是我們要去加強要去做的請問一下這個公務署要不要說明一下要怎麼樣去加強未來我先說明一下我想"},{"start":336.307,"end":352.02,"text":"謝謝委員的的一個說明我分兩個部分第一個部分就是整個境外的境外的防範是一個跨機關跨部會的一個合作我們在107年12月12號成立中央一面中心以後就就不斷的去檢討我們的強度是越來越強我們的強度從來沒有說107年跟現在"},{"start":356.403,"end":385.051,"text":"有越來越疏於管理而且是越來越精進 越來越強所以我們才能夠守住這過去七年來的一個努力這第一個說明但是宣導 宣傳的部分我要跟委員講就是農業部舊房檢署的部分他三千多萬 刪了大概兩千萬但是就算預算被刪了我們還是非常努力的去做相關的一個宣導不會說預算被刪了以後而不做宣導 沒有這回事我們還是很努力的去做相關的一個宣導"},{"start":386.553,"end":415.714,"text":"这个我刚刚讲了这个宣导要落实你光去那个媒体其实大家不会去在意不会去注意媒体的宣导是一个多元的不管是用媒体所以没有错我刚才从机场飞机上面的飞机上面的荧幕都有部长我刚刚的建议可不可以做就是说只要出国的乡亲你就告诉他不能买什么"},{"start":417.814,"end":423.805,"text":"進來 可以嗎 這個很重要這個最能落實啊不然一般鄉親也不會去注意啊"},{"start":425.681,"end":453.953,"text":"這個才是最能夠落實你們去處理好不好我們在今年的冬五節就有試著這樣子在check in的時候就給他一段相關的宣導這個部分我想我剛才說的我們的邊境的防範的部分我們會不斷的清淨一定要去落實第二個難免看起來有疏還是有疏漏對不對所以進來了嘛"},{"start":455.006,"end":482.085,"text":"所以进来了进来了怎么办呢对不对这个部分就是说除以到底这个除以这个很多早该前面进除以养猪对不对这个就是你难以防范进来"},{"start":483.41,"end":508.813,"text":"你說你剛剛進進了很多我跟委員報告你剛才講到這個廚餘我跟委員報告一件事情就是我們現在廚餘養豬一定要經過徵主我知道你都有寫了啦對 這個是一個非常重要所以廚餘養豬只要他經過合格的這些徵主的部分是一個安全的飼料我覺得不要去污衊廚餘養豬的部分第二個部分我想跟委員報告"},{"start":509.514,"end":530.1,"text":"就好像我們在路上交通事故頻繁的時候我們不能說因此而不能開車 不能騎坡所以我們會精進整個廚藝的監管廚藝長的監管這個是大家的心聲那你認為說是可以防範的但是顯然沒有沒有防範好嘛"},{"start":530.64,"end":545.342,"text":"所以那個源頭很重要不是 現在的疫調還在進行中所以它的來源到底是從哪裡來的我想我們還沒有辦法去做決定所以我們也不能說這個來源一定是從廚藝或一定是從哪邊因為在疫調沒有完成之前"},{"start":546.523,"end":572.396,"text":"對不對沒有 國外的部分一定是從國外進來的那國外進來他有非常多的管道進到我們的豬場所以我在這邊我想我們第一時間就是我們會去做疫調疫調完了以後我們會定期的跟外界說明那最後的疫調的結果我們才能夠知道可能的來源是從哪裡來的來源一定是國外嘛 對不對這個是確定的嘛 好不好 加油是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":170,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時47分）主席、各位委員。有請部長還有關務署。"],["主席：好，我們請兩位，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的說明，我分兩個部分，第一個部分就是整個境外的防範是跨機關、跨部會的合作，我們在107年12月12日成立中央應變中心以後，就不斷地去檢討，強度是越來越強，跟107年比從來沒有趨向疏於管理的狀況，而是越來越精進、越來越強，所以我們才能夠守住過去七年來的努力，這是第一個說明。但是宣導、宣傳的部分，我要跟委員講，農業部防檢署的部分三千多萬刪了大概兩千萬，但是就算預算被刪了，我們還是非常努力地做相關的宣導，不會因預算被刪而不做宣導，沒有這回事，我們還是很努力地做相關的宣導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我剛剛講宣導要落實啦！你光去那個媒體，其實大家不會去在意、不會去注意……"],["陳部長駿季：媒體的宣導是一個多元的，不管是用媒體……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯，我請教一下，部長……"],["陳部長駿季：從機場到飛機上面的螢幕都有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，我剛剛的建議可不可以做？就是只要出國的鄉親，你告訴他不能買什麼進來，可以嗎？這個很重要，這個最能夠落實，不然一般鄉親也不會去注意啊！這個才是最能夠落實的，你們去處理，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在今年的端午節就有試著在check in的時候，給他一張相關的宣導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，很好，這要繼續。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我剛才說的邊境防範，我們會不斷地精進……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個是最重要、最重要、最重要的，一定要去落實。第二個，看起來難免會有疏漏嘛！對不對？所以進來了嘛！進來了，怎麼辦呢？關於廚餘部分，早該全面禁廚餘養豬，對不對？這就是難以防範進來，你剛剛說精進很多，這顯然有落差。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你剛才講的關於廚餘部分，現在廚餘養豬一定要經過蒸煮……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，你都有寫了啦！但就是沒有落實嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個非常重要，廚餘養豬只要經過合格的蒸煮，就是一個安全的飼料，我覺得不要去污衊用廚餘養豬。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Map的图结合手机用WiFi的方式能够掌握但这个东西安全性能后面还大家自己要持续精进这个是俄罗斯的国家的指挥中心它这种的图像从作战区"},{"start":517.259,"end":544.45,"text":"到这个就是说国家的最高层级甚至救灾防灾他通通可以做一个显示那这个是未来我们要努力精进那因为有不同的信号来源不同时间友好国家所以不同的时间不同的区块不同的行为不同的位置不同的动向最后经过整合产生一个给长官做决策客观的共同图像那这个是在今年救灾啊二零"},{"start":545.55,"end":573.969,"text":"25年9月25号我先显示一个我们虚拟的战情那么有各种图像选择最主要就是你透过云端或者你的网络你战略情报要有操控台各种征收器通讯操控台还有摇测无人机回馈的台限定还有云端监制卫星动态情报做一个我相信国防部现在已经在强化这个部分但是现在呢你要跟结合下面是什么呢"},{"start":575.066,"end":585.615,"text":"就是栽房了以后我们要看到的是整个栽房的情势就是像这个"},{"start":586.755,"end":614.167,"text":"马太安西或是这一次燕子口这个方案如果溃堤或者撤侨撤离居民这个部分等于说我们的国军跟地方甚至中央救灾中心是分享共同图像这一块我们还可以共同努力那这个是一个方法论我想连二部分或者是我们官部已经在进行这个部分那最主要就是强调未来的人工智慧"},{"start":615.984,"end":627.435,"text":"它的本質是要能夠特定目標的設計周遭環境的因素要有信任感解釋性驗證度確實性能夠提供接近戰場實際的充分資料"},{"start":630.663,"end":648.038,"text":"那人工智慧的决心实际上它并不能取代指挥官这个在教学里面还是很重要我们希望不管只参教员或者是先进的单位都要有这个课程而不是现在大家都用手机都会用这个AI付钱不付钱是另外一个手段"},{"start":648.638,"end":675.637,"text":"那么另外就是现在强调的我们的台湾盾要整合现有的所有的武器装备透过不同的Sensor还有美方未来提供的资本因为今天您的报告讲提到了有C5ISR我建议再加一个T就是Targeting因为现在物货的时间越来越缩短可以交换的情资也是越来越短所以最后就是"},{"start":676.809,"end":705.662,"text":"用AI但是我们要为最终的结果负责要很踏实地做不是口号式的照镜环节兼构绝对不会有漏网那最主要就是要确认我们指挥层级还有操作层级哪些是在链路中间main in the loop on the loop那低层授权的out of the 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Maps的圖結合手機，並用Wi-Fi的方式掌握，但這個東西的安全性能後續大家需要持續精進。","簡報是俄羅斯的國家防禦指揮中心，這種圖像從作戰區到國家的最高層級，甚至救災、防災，通通可以做一個顯示，這是未來我們要努力精進的，因為有不同的信號來源，不同時間、友好國家，所以不同的時間、不同的區塊、不同的行為、不同的位置、不同的動向，最後經過整合產生一個給長官做決策，客觀的共同圖像。","這個是今（2025）年9月25號的救災，我先顯示一個我們虛擬的戰情，有各種圖像選擇，最主要就是透過雲端或者網路，戰略情報要有操控臺、各種偵蒐器、通訊操控臺、遙測無人機回饋臺及現地監測、雲端監測衛星動態情報，我相信國防部現在已經在強化這個部分，但是現在你要更結合。接著是什麼呢？我們要看到的是整個災防的情勢，像馬太鞍溪或是這一次的燕子口，如果潰堤或是撤離居民，這個部分等於是我們國軍跟地方，甚至中央救災中心分享共同圖像，這一塊我們還可以共同努力，這是一個方法論，我想聯二或者是國防部已經在進行這個部分。","最主要的是，強調未來的人工智慧，它的本質是要能夠設計特定目標，周遭環境的因素要有信任感、解釋性、驗證度、確實性，能夠提供接近戰場實際的充分資料。人工智慧的決心，實際上它並不能取代指揮官，這個在教學裡面還是很重要，我們希望不管指參教員或者是先進的單位都要有這個課程，而不是現在大家都用手機，都會用AI，至於付錢、不付錢是另外一個手段。","另外，現在強調的「台灣盾」要整合現有所有的武器裝備，透過不同的sensors還有美方未來提供的資本，今天您的報告提到有C5ISR，我建議再加一個「T」，就是targeting，因為現在目獲的時間越來越縮短，可以交換情資的時間也是越來越短，所以最後就是用AI，但是我們要為最終的結果負責，要很踏實的做，不是口號式的躁進，環節要兼顧，絕對不會掛一漏萬。最主要是要確認指揮層級及操作層級有哪些是在鏈路中間，「Humans in the Loop」、「Humans on the Loop」，低層授權的out off the loop，我希望在AI的運用構想上要大家一起努力，持續精進。部長，請您回應。"],["顧部長立雄：在軍民部分我想結合EMIC，這個是我們現在正在努力的目標，當然我們匯入的應該是非機密的部分，所以軍民融合作為一個全政府的決策系統，這個部分正在討論，也在努力當中。另外，國軍本身的部分，我想地面的部隊，我們現在已經有……事實上大家也已經有看到，就是所謂的臺灣戰術網路，這個部分在作為地面的數位圖資，掌握整個部隊動態跟部隊的即時資訊，這個部分我們也正在努力。關於整體防空的部分，如何從sensor到shooter，有一個對各式sensor跟武器做個整合，並且導入戰場管理系統來做協助，我想這個部分也是我們正在努力的方向。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，大家共同努力、持續精進，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d3e72bf208a67dabbf48629de9594d8cbe3bd93a97ab146713a3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:34:50 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銅板沒有"},{"start":37.894,"end":45.18,"text":"我想我們會一系列的啦不是 因為你報告有寫嘛你報告已經寫了嘛 基本上銅板不會改嘛銅板不會 銅板不會因為那個清車道成本比較高嘛對不對 紙鈔你要改嘛是不是 所以我就跟你確定說是不是一千塊的也要改 一百塊的也要改是不是可能"},{"start":62.031,"end":64.212,"text":"我們會諮詢委員我們就是一系列這樣的來討論這個總裁啊我原來都覺得你很獨立沒有政治考量你這個的話就是呼應"},{"start":82.803,"end":101.68,"text":"這個執政黨的這種轉型正義的做法嘛原來彭總裁的手在那裡說不用蓋 蓋得到他五百億 要五百億結果你原來去年的時候 今年吧是不是那個什麼十二強去年還是今年啊"},{"start":102.699,"end":103.86,"text":"我跟委員報告基本上我們這一次的改版絕對不會有政治上的一個考量"},{"start":131.088,"end":143.178,"text":"因為我們這邊寫得很清楚啊我們的鈔券都已經24年如果相較於主要的國家來比較我們真的是很慢了美國最近也沒有改版啊"},{"start":144.52,"end":147.363,"text":"美國有嗎美國也改版很久以前啦2016年我說我們這邊也有一個有啦 但是你沒有列美國啊美國就跟你講美國改版是把華盛頓的人頭原來小小的變成大大的"},{"start":163.118,"end":165.439,"text":"是這樣子人頭是把小小的變大大的改版是這樣改的你現在來講的話這個很清楚就是轉型正義的後面的以法工作絕對沒有絕對沒有我在國衛殿堂呢我不會打狂語而且"},{"start":188.05,"end":200.581,"text":"我比较另外一个角度给你看啦我本来对你是很尊敬的啦我希望以后要继续啦不能继续尊敬啦因为你的任期到什么时候"},{"start":202.207,"end":205.99,"text":"可能還兩年左右兩年半啦 你兩年半嘟嘟好這個東西嘟嘟好 你要接任期的時候接起來看要不要接第三任就變這樣沒有沒有 委員講得太遠了講得太遠會讓我沒辦法"},{"start":221.82,"end":223.883,"text":"委員講得太遠了讓我沒辦法想像你說從開始這個委員會謝謝委員不過委員一直都在支持我們還有鼓勵我們我們也希望這一個改版的事情委員能夠支持我們"},{"start":238.597,"end":244.242,"text":"如果太多政治的話就不會支持了不會啦 不會啦那我就問你 準備花多少錢啊 你跟我講啦準備花多少錢我們這邊也有講啊就是說一張的成本會加1.5元不是啦 那你全部要花多少錢啊包括紙面板什麼之類的我說看我們的發行的量啦"},{"start":263.236,"end":271.561,"text":"但是我跟各位 我跟委員報告如果說以現在目前的量過去發電量多少現在目前現在是50億流通在"},{"start":276.271,"end":278.753,"text":"你們兩個跟他講話時間要把我扣掉了現在就是說我們流通在外的是10億張但是他會慢慢的下來但是就是說因為他的張數沒辦法控制不曉得因為他會有下降的一個趨勢我們只列出就是說每張1.5"},{"start":301.641,"end":312.304,"text":"增加1.5增加1.5那你看看我們報告委員那就是60億沒有報告委員我跟你報告一下3.5我們如果一張3.5增加到1.5的話大概是增加40%左右但是你要想想看24年"},{"start":323.967,"end":333.575,"text":"對不對 24年增加那你現在的物料什麼的啊24年 然後增加百分之四十五我覺得是合理的現在都還沒辦法評估嘛因為它的量未來它的量不曉得啊我跟委員報告我們那個時候的五百億"},{"start":350.598,"end":353.547,"text":"五分之四以上都是銅板"},{"start":355.356,"end":366.602,"text":"五分之四以上都是銅牌那乘以五分之一好了那是一百億啊那乘以五分之一就一百億啊五分之一啦好了就五分之一一百億嘛所以我果然沒錯嘛就是要改這個要一百億嘛那是以前的估算啦那是以前的估算現在估算更高啊現在不曉得啊要看那個張數啊不是 現在物價的成本物價上漲能夠增加所以我就說1.5啊1.5啊所以我說喔如果說我們不現在改版的話呢成本會更高"},{"start":386.5,"end":389.783,"text":"成本會更高所以現在時間現在的時點是剛好啦24年我們這邊來看的話14年16年11年到24年那我們是最慢的這個鈔票是什麼地方愛了你的銀啦這個東西"},{"start":404.597,"end":425.142,"text":"一千塊的也沒有政治人物啊一千塊的有誰有誰啊你講到這裡的時候我也跟你報告所以呢我們的土壤你看看像包括就是說我們那個科技我們的科技你看看我們那個科技我們一千塊跟兩千塊的科技跟我們現在台灣的一個科技來比較的話我覺得啊"},{"start":427.262,"end":432.304,"text":"哇 我們科技發展得很怪所以我總覺得 那是那個我們要與時俱進與時俱進 這個東西你說沒有你的考量是大家是不會相信的啦沒有沒有沒有 絕對沒有最少我都不會相信的"},{"start":444.95,"end":453.675,"text":"跟這個有關係的世界十二強的時候我們有紀念幣紀念銀幣一幣一枚是1600塊預購上限36000枚那是好多人要結果抽籤抽到結果繳款只有2.85剩下7500"},{"start":466.362,"end":467.403,"text":"你怎麼處理我們就是說他有繳款的我們就製造這麼多我們就製造這麼多因為為什麼會上線因為有很多人就怕抽不到"},{"start":481.644,"end":485.245,"text":"所以他就重複的去那個他重複下單結果他抽到重複下單他抽到6個那當然他大概是繳款所以你不會再發行不會啦因為我覺得這樣的話造成我們的困擾這是第一個第二個好像市場上也認為就是說延太久的時候也會冷掉"},{"start":511.914,"end":516.995,"text":"這個世界十二強老實講都認為紀念幣不錯啊 我也覺得不錯啦當然啦 我們會 但是現在就是已經確定了確定就說他繳款的是有多少萬枚 那我們就製造我們再看喔 那個總裁 美國下手決定降息 一般預估他會降息嘛 對不對"},{"start":536.6,"end":540.723,"text":"我在想Market都是認為就是說它會降息而且它的Chairman Power他好像也Hint說10月跟12月可能都會降息所以各將一馬 對市場也是這樣的意思降了之後台幣就有升值壓力囉"},{"start":558.714,"end":562.856,"text":"這個也難說啦上一次他不是降息嗎結果他降息之後美元反而強起來所以不要在這裡做猜測這種不是預測這種是猜測猜測的時候我覺得猜測的時候會誤導我們的投資人"},{"start":587.623,"end":614.272,"text":"所以說美國降息 美金會再往上漲這個我不敢這麼說我只是說前面的那個例子就是說他降息的結果呢在美元後面 美元就漲起來那你看喔 川普上任之後 川普的一個做法是盡量不要cash所以黃金一直漲 比特幣一直漲黃金我們要看有沒有增加買啊"},{"start":615.836,"end":618.429,"text":"央行有沒有多拿一點黃金 最近"},{"start":619.285,"end":623.207,"text":"我們沒有 今年開始都沒有增加不過我跟委員報告基本上主要的專案銀行都沒有買黃金去買的是俄羅斯俄羅斯 中國大陸哈薩克可以買當然哈薩克是small還有印度這些大概就是說因為印度也是"},{"start":646.773,"end":660.099,"text":"印度的民間一般來講他中央銀行他是也有買但是民間主要的還是民間的力量不是中央銀行的力量最近的黃金的上漲是民間的力量不是中央銀行的力量所以黃金或是你不干擾這個我不去猜測他我也不去預測他"},{"start":667.338,"end":682.524,"text":"因為你可以看到川普的貸金實施等於說他告訴全世界或有現金都會貶值所以最好是或有其他非現金的一些資產包括黃金包括比特幣這種講法對不對這個我覺得他也不是這麼說"},{"start":688.267,"end":715.869,"text":"現象這樣現象最後一個小問題韓國總統說如果因為美國要他cash他本來說政府融資要保證他都不接受要cash三千五百億他的外存底大概四千多億啊對不對所以他說會引起亞洲金融風暴日本也不答應啊結果我們通通答應了我們要去亞我們要投資四千億我們的外存底只有六千億不到對不對五千八嘛"},{"start":716.63,"end":730.665,"text":"我們的市監獄呢我也不曉得是不是真的就所說的但是即使是有這個市監獄但是大部分都是我們民間的啦不是官方啦我知道啦但是外匯存底啊外匯存底當然是民間的啦外匯存底當然是民間他還是要跟你買匯啊"},{"start":737.202,"end":739.583,"text":"他說我們去那邊去投資的那些他的賺那個美元他賺得很多他不必要在市場買他現在是賣所以我就說他不必用到我們的外市場的不必要韓國說如果他投資3500億會有亞洲金融風暴這一句話"},{"start":760.714,"end":775.267,"text":"你認不認同即使我想他沒有說亞洲金融風暴他是說他會發生金融危機他沒有說亞洲會發生金融危機好像是說他說他韓國會發生金融危機你認不認同這句話當然啦 我知道台灣很健全"},{"start":786.837,"end":800.901,"text":"不是啊 韓國會不會有金融風暴啦他如果去3500億我們台股也是不錯啊 我覺得啊我問你韓國 你跟我講台股台股啊 你說台股嗎沒有 我說韓國會不會金融風暴你說韓國怎麼樣會不會 因為他的總統說如果去投資3500億的話會產生金融風暴他是說他 他不是說亞洲對 那他會 你同意不同意"},{"start":815.105,"end":826.657,"text":"這個我也很難想像啦 我也很難想像說他是三千五百億 這個不要去問我啦應該是要去問他的中央銀行總裁啦還有跟他問他的財政部部長你今天給你都亂說話喔讓我對你的出鏡少了好幾分耶總裁有他的看法啦 寶哥好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時34分）謝謝。主席以及各位先進。有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：你早。我比較關心的是新臺幣要改版的事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：現在是限定在千元跟百元嗎？還是？銅板沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們會一系列的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，因為你報告已經寫了，基本上銅板不會改嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：銅板不會。"],["賴委員士葆：因為銅板牽涉的成本比較高，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：紙鈔你要改嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我跟你確定，是不是一千塊的也要改、一百塊的也要改？"],["楊總裁金龍：可能，我們會諮詢委員……"],["賴委員士葆：兩個都改，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們就是一系列來討論，然後來……"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，我原來都覺得你很獨立、沒有政治考量。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你這樣的話，就是呼應執政黨轉型正義的做法嘛！原來彭總裁都守住說不用改，改的話要花500億，原本去年十二強的時候在講，我看你還守得住，我覺得就發紀念銀幣不要發紙鈔，結果你現在還是做了啊！還是政治考量啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟委員報告，基本上這一次的改版絕對不會有政治上的考量。"],["賴委員士葆：那麼奇怪！"],["楊總裁金龍：絕對不會！我們這邊寫得很清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：你當然這樣說……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的鈔券都已經24年沒有改，如果相較其他主要國家，我們真的是很慢了！"],["賴委員士葆：美國沒有改版啊！美國最近也沒有改版啊！美國有嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：美國也改版……"],["賴委員士葆：那是很久以前啊！他把……"],["楊總裁金龍：2016年，我們的報告也有一個表……"],["賴委員士葆：我就跟你講，美國改版是把華盛頓的人頭由原來小小的變成大大的，是這樣子，是把人頭從小小的變大大的，改版是這樣改的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講的話很清楚就是轉型正義後面的尾巴工作啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不會！絕對沒有！我在國會殿堂不會打誑語。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我比較另外一個角度給你看，我本來對你是很尊敬的。"],["楊總裁金龍：希望以後繼續尊敬。"],["賴委員士葆：不知道能不能繼續尊敬！你的任期到什麼時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：可能還有兩年左右。"],["賴委員士葆：兩年半啦！兩年半剛剛好，這個東西剛剛好，你要接續任期的時候接起來，看要不要接第三任，就是這樣！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有，委員講得太遠了。"],["賴委員士葆：不會啊！兩年半是你講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：講得太遠了，我沒辦法想像！"],["賴委員士葆：你說這個委員會叫新臺幣鈔券……"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員，不過委員一直都在支持我們、鼓勵我們，也希望改版的事情委員也能夠支持我們。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，如果太多政治的話就不會支持。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會！"],["賴委員士葆：主委，那我就問你，準備花多少錢？你跟我講準備花多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的報告也有講，就是一張的成本會加1.5元。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，全部要花多少錢？包括製模版之類的，你報告沒有寫……"],["楊總裁金龍：看我們發行的量……"],["賴委員士葆：按照正常量是多少？過去發行量是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，如果以目前……"],["賴委員士葆：你們兩個人講話，時間要幫我扣掉。"],["楊總裁金龍：現在流通在外40億張，但是會慢慢下來，因為張數沒辦法控制所以不曉得，而且會有下降的趨勢，我們只列出每張1.5。"],["賴委員士葆：增加1.5，那製版的錢呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：做模版的錢呢？那就是60億？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼沒有？這40億，1.5不就是60億！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我跟你報告，如果一張3.5增加到1.5的話，大概是增加百分之四十左右，但是你要想想看，24年耶！以現在的物料等等的，24年增加40%，我覺得是合理的。"],["賴委員士葆：總共花多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在都還沒辦法評估嘛！因為未來的量不曉得啊！"],["賴委員士葆：彭淮南總裁以前說改版要花500億，你要不要花這麼多？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，那個時候的500億，五分之四以上都是銅板。"],["賴委員士葆：那乘以五分之一好了，還是100億啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：低於五分之一。"],["賴委員士葆：好，以五分之一就是100億，所以我估的沒錯嘛！改這個就是要100億。"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是以前的估算。"],["賴委員士葆：現在估算更高啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：現在不曉得，還要看張數。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，現在物價上漲、人工增加。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說1.5，如果不現在改版的話，成本會更高！所以現在的時間點是剛好，和報告中其他國家相比，從11年到24年，我們是最慢的。"],["賴委員士葆：鈔票是什麼地方礙了你的眼？一千塊的也沒有政治人物，都好好的，你要改它？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，你講到這裡我也跟你報告，你看看我們的圖樣，包括科技，你看看一千塊跟兩千塊的科技，跟現在臺灣科技來比較的話，我覺得我們科技發展得很快。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，你不要跟我講到旁邊去了。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我總覺得我們要與時俱進。"],["賴委員士葆：與時俱進？這個東西你說沒有特殊考量大家是不會相信的，最少我都不會相信。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，絕對沒有！報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：再來也是跟這個有關係的，世界十二強的時候我們有紀念銀幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：一枚是1,600元，預購上限是3萬6,000枚？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：那時候好多人要，結果抽籤抽到繳款的只有2.85萬枚，剩下的7,500枚你怎麼處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！有繳款的我們就是製造這麼多。"],["賴委員士葆：當然啊！所以剩下7,500枚不要做了？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為有很多人就怕抽不到，所以重複下單，結果他抽到6個，大概只繳款1、2個而已。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不會再發行7,500枚給大家抽？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，因為這樣會造成我們的困擾，這是第一個。第二個，好像市場上也認為延太久的話會冷掉。"],["賴委員士葆：為了世界十二強，老實講我都認為紀念幣不錯啊！這7,500枚就發完啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我也覺得不錯。"],["賴委員士葆：那就把它發完，你又不要。"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，我們會，但是現在已經確定了……"],["賴委員士葆：確定只發2萬8,500枚？"],["楊總裁金龍：繳款有多少萬枚我們就製造多少。"],["賴委員士葆：接著看，總裁，美國下週決定降息，一般預估他會降息，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想market都是認為他會降息，而且他們Jerome Powell好像也hint 10月跟12月可能都會降息。"],["賴委員士葆：所以各降1碼，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，市場也是這樣的預期。"],["賴委員士葆：降的時候臺幣就有升值壓力了？"],["楊總裁金龍：也很難說。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會難說？這麼淺顯的道理……"],["楊總裁金龍：上一次他們不是降息嗎？結果降息之後美元反而強起來，所以不要在這裡猜測，這種不是預測而是猜測。"],["賴委員士葆：這個是常理A、B、C啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得猜測會誤導投資人，這樣不好。"],["賴委員士葆：所以說美國降息，美金會再往上漲？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不敢這麼說，我只是舉前面的例子，他們降息的結果，美元後來又漲起來。"],["賴委員士葆：你這是「黑龍繞桌」！你看川普上任之後，川普的一個作法是，儘量不要cash，所以黃金一直漲、比特幣一直漲。請問我們央行有沒有增加買黃金？央行有沒有多買一點黃金？最近。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：今年開始都沒有增加？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：你少賺很多！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，基本上，主要的中央銀行都沒有買黃金，去買的是俄羅斯、中國大陸……"],["賴委員士葆：哈薩克也買。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，當然哈薩克是small，還有印度。"],["賴委員士葆：印度，這是大的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。一般來講，他中央銀行也有買，但主要的還是民間的力量，不是中央銀行的力量。最近黃金上漲是民間的力量，不是中央銀行的力量。"],["賴委員士葆：所以黃金的後市你不看好？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不去猜測，我也不去預測它。"],["賴委員士葆：因為你可以看到川普等於是告訴全世界握有現金都會貶值，所以最好就是握有其他非現金的一些資產，包括黃金、比特幣，這種講法對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得他也不是這麼說。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，韓國總統說，因為美國要他的cash，本來說政府融資要保證，他都不接受，要cash 3,500億。他的外匯存底大概四千多億，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以他說會引起亞洲金融風暴。日本也不答應啊！結果我們通通答應了，我們要去，我們要投資四千億，而我們的外匯存底只有六千億不到，對不對？五千八……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的四千億，我也不曉得是不是真的就是所說的……即使有這四千億，但大部分都是我們民間的，不是官方啦！我們官方怎麼會去投資四千億……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，但是外匯存底……"],["楊總裁金龍：那是民間的。"],["賴委員士葆：外匯存底當然是民間，他還是要跟你買匯啊！他去投資還是要跟你買匯。"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不一定，我說我們去那邊投資的那些，哇！他賺美元賺得很多，他不必在市場買。他現在是賣，所以我就說他不必用到我們外匯市場的……不必要。"],["賴委員士葆：回過頭來，我就請你commant，韓國說如果他投資3,500億，會有亞洲金融風暴，這一句話你認不認同？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想，他沒有說亞洲金融風暴……"],["賴委員士葆：有，他有……"],["楊總裁金龍：他是說他會發生金融危機，他沒有說亞洲會發生金融危機。"],["賴委員士葆：他有講亞洲金融危機，你google一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。好像是他說韓國會發生金融危機。沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：你認不認同這句話？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然臺灣很健全啊！臺灣很健全。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，韓國會不會有金融風暴啦？他如果去投資3,500億。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們臺股也是不錯，我覺得。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你韓國，你跟我講臺股。"],["楊總裁金龍：臺股啊！你說臺股嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我說韓國會不會有金融風暴？"],["楊總裁金龍：你說韓國怎麼樣？"],["主席：會不會引起亞洲金融風暴？"],["賴委員士葆：因為他的總統說如果去投資3,500億的話，會產生金融風暴。"],["楊總裁金龍：他是說他，他不是說亞洲。"],["賴委員士葆：對，那你同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我也很難想像這3,500億……這個不要問我，應該是要去問他的中央銀行總裁，還有問他的財政部部長。"],["主席：好啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你今天是「黑龍繞桌」，讓我對你的尊敬扣了幾分。"],["主席：總裁有他的看法。","接下來請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},{"id":"164647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d36781b0daf38fc31fcbd78a287304ef9f3bd93a97ab146713cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:30:54 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有請部長我們再請陳部長好 部長 這個政策其實是要做預防"},{"start":21.178,"end":47.748,"text":"是要预防危机的发生那这个本席呢是也只针对您今天的简报也就是一个非常短期中的短期的一个救急因应还没有看到你中长期的一个怎么的预防的机制好那所以呢我还是要讲一直倡议的叫做智慧管理决策要智慧管理"},{"start":48.328,"end":73.769,"text":"那其實是從陳吉仲主委到您這個陳俊濟部長來講四年前本席就一直在倡議這個基因定序當中的重要性那它對於豬價的穩定對於防疫所有各養豬場的距向的掌握以及到你的一個生產力的提升"},{"start":74.75,"end":89.688,"text":"成本的降低生產力的提升其實全部都可以避其功以役而且是24小時365天所以今天我還是回到從4年多前30年前開始倡議的藉著你這次非洲豬瘟的普查"},{"start":90.689,"end":118.901,"text":"一定要結合生物安全資料庫也進而建立了穩定豬價的供應跟價格跟守住食安跟產業的信任豬價的穩定在上週的時候我說這個不是本席神預測現在從去年就在提醒說豬價一定會上漲您說你們會知道漲結果搞到今年我們豬價是全球第二高的國家"},{"start":119.981,"end":135.342,"text":"好那所以呢這個防疫講回來說到防疫守了7年那這個東南亞少數能維持非疫情的國家你們也做了因應了但是這些因應當中該冷凍豬肉停止停止屠宰跟交易5天"},{"start":136.483,"end":163.943,"text":"這表示什麼一件事情我們的市場供應鏈是非常脆弱實安的資料是分散的所以呢再次提醒你在上一週本席的警告租價的穩定不是短期的問題是結構的問題政府痛定思痛務必建立全國租資的生物安全資料掌握環境與生物風險變化才能在疫情"},{"start":164.983,"end":183.309,"text":"價格 食安三者找到平衡所以今天的重點是希望藉著與非洲豬瘟的普查整合變成系統性的長期防疫防線冷凍豬肉的調度跟食安好 全國目前的冷凍豬肉的儲藏量是6.2噸每日的消費是9500噸 只能撐6天"},{"start":188.971,"end":198.077,"text":"所以呢這個您後續屠宰的時間如果延長了你的市場供應的供給一定是非常的緊急"},{"start":200.29,"end":219.728,"text":"所以我在這邊有兩個要求第一個市場的冷凍豬肉來源結構你必須立即公開這個公開是在疫情情節的食安透明度最基本的社會新冷你要在48小時內明確的將這批冷凍豬肉的國產比例跟進口比例公開"},{"start":220.589,"end":245.231,"text":"第二個產地批次與倉儲溫控紀錄是否可以上網可查其實這兩個如果你有在本席三四年前就開始建立起你的智慧決策的一個共用平台的話其實這些你隨時我隨時問隨時都可以答全國人民都可以看好那你不做"},{"start":246.431,"end":265.118,"text":"那你就只好本席在這的要求這是在疫情期間食安透明度對社會最基本的信任要公開這兩項第二個在這個禁載期間供應減少導致批發價格我現在都講民生我現在是講人民不是講你講你這個農業部你的食安你的價格"},{"start":268.959,"end":289.069,"text":"你的價格如果超過了10%你現在租價已是天價如果因為這一波進展之後你再上漲10%必須拜託兩件事情第一個冷凍儲備的釋出這你已經在做了請你也要啟動平易租價基金趕快的穩定市場價格"},{"start":291.05,"end":318.206,"text":"不要把豬長期為農業部所苦也不要把豬變成行政團隊的包袱所以避免你只要市場的價格再次的變成讓民眾有恐慌性的採買這對現在的行政團隊又是雪上加霜所以綁上消費者保護農民的底線所以這邊是兩項要求再來"},{"start":320.014,"end":336.742,"text":"建立普查能夠結合普查建立組織的生物安全資料庫非洲防疫不是的這個防疫非洲豬瘟的防疫不是靠臨時應變現在你們叫臨時應變這次全國的普查是建立起結構化資料的絕佳機會"},{"start":338.283,"end":360.951,"text":"我再次再次的第二次的要求非洲豬瘟的普查結合全國豬隻生物安全資料庫的建設結合辦理具體三個第一個場居層級的資料第二個分子層級的監測第三資料整合與AI的預警你場居層級的資料由縣市防禦所協助採樣"},{"start":363.893,"end":369.54,"text":"輔導 具規模的中大型養豬場進行輔導記錄每座養豬場的環境倉庫倉庫你的溫濕度餵食來源進出人員場區消毒記錄建立數位防疫檔案"},{"start":379.172,"end":395.698,"text":"這個如果你有做從三四年前本席的倡議到現在你有做你現在就不會現在查到幾天了黃金的兩天內三天內你到現在還查不出來你的溯源還查不出來數位防禦痛定思痛做起來吧"},{"start":396.098,"end":421.805,"text":"我所謂中隊增大型台堂如果你你事先做台堂是最大宗台堂你先導入了這樣每座養豬場環境的參數的導入建立數位防疫的資料那中小型的那我們就變看啦因為如果連中小型本席的選區也有啊中小型要這樣要求下去進出人員場區的消毒劑他們做不來"},{"start":422.925,"end":450.58,"text":"但是中大型你要先導入中小型的你試看他的狀況看什麼的要求第二個分子層級的監測國營事業台堂自先導入基因育種跟分子檢測以市場的機制提升豬隻產續產的生產效益跟安全性你的屠宰場端與樣區中對豬隻檢驗進行兩件事情分子菌向檢測跟結合生物晶片"},{"start":451.32,"end":461.93,"text":"你百分百的掌握每隻豬啊豬隻環境的微生物豬的組成變化你怎麼可能還有疫情的發生"},{"start":462.898,"end":487.156,"text":"你都會掌握這不僅能提前發現病毒的跡象而且用來追蹤環境污染跟抗藥性的菌株對未來食品安全管理奠定科學基礎都是建立在科學最後資料整合與AI預警由防菌署整合各縣市的防疫資料庫統一建立起株質健康環境檢測平台並以AI演算法監測"},{"start":488.797,"end":510.571,"text":"異常菌群的變化自動發出預警所以依照歐盟食品安全局的報告導入了分子檢測也就上述這三件事情非洲豬瘟的再發率是下降42%這不是理論這是實證台灣應該成為亞洲第一個以菌向資料防疫的國家"},{"start":511.656,"end":536.369,"text":"好再來講到價格價格與防疫是可以並行的從短期應變成長期的治理短期你穩定租價從冷凍調度跟平益基金平益基金是本席今天提出就長期穩定就還是一樣靠著資料科學與透明的決策建立租資生活安全資料庫之後你建立這個之後你可以有三件事情你就坐著"},{"start":537.049,"end":560.824,"text":"吹冷氣做你這個部長就夠了第一個透過即時檢測你這個安全庫有做出來你透過即時檢測預測疫情對供應鏈的影響第二個你可以提早釋放冷凍庫存避免價格的劇烈波動第三個以資料驅動補助政策資料驅動補助政策連你的補助都在建立在數據之上"},{"start":562.585,"end":581.54,"text":"針對高風險地區強化環境改善跟消毒設施這樣的系統能夠幫助地方政府掌握實際豬隻分布跟廚餘使用的狀況避免非法養豬或者不當廚餘流入市場從源頭穩定價格跟食安好再來防疫科學化"},{"start":582.441,"end":610.871,"text":"守住食安重建人民的信任台灣已經防堵非洲豬瘟7年這呢防疫是長期戰豬價穩定是民生戰講好豬價穩定是民生戰防疫需要決心市場是需要制度的防我一再強調防疫不應該只是一時的禁止措施更應該建立長期的科學化結構的防線這邊短期長期我再次的要求"},{"start":611.511,"end":639.843,"text":"容業部期許容業部從上禮拜本席的質詢之後您我在沒有要求兩個月內要建立豬隻安全資料庫並且今天我一併的再次強調與非洲豬瘟的普查一同實施到包括價格的波動你也有要求你了在冷凍庫包括你的評議基金那包括你這個豬掌握豬隻的分布跟廚餘的使用這都您在簡報當中都有講本席都認同"},{"start":640.743,"end":649.292,"text":"未來結構性的防疫精進邊境的防堵持續的做落實的做百分百的X光檢驗率市場的管理這邊"},{"start":651.622,"end":677.308,"text":"這個我也講了 結合國際GSI Summarize2027標準的推動這個Summarize是標標籤的一個國際化的一個組織好他2027年全球要推動就是像這個ISO等等的這樣類似這樣的一個標籤的一個全國全球的組織他要推動那我們就是配合配合做諸之圖宅導入QR code"},{"start":679.555,"end":696.751,"text":"確保租資流通的通訊透明可追溯這不就是也是AI管理智慧平台嗎人要做好租才能管好守住食安就是守住農業更是守住人民的信任好最後本席主張你們現在有一個基金"},{"start":698.109,"end":713.266,"text":"在百億基金在去年就已經截止了你們呢在去年6月24就已經呈報行政院行政院到現在還沒核定這所謂的百億基金的第二期計畫那說百億也不到百億也不過68.8而已請農業部務必"},{"start":717.41,"end":733.98,"text":"行政院本週核定第二期的百億計畫從去年到現在還沒核定一年了放在行政院長辦公室一年了所以你現在趕快的核定這第二期的這樣的一個68.82億的計畫但是我認為要更名叫什麼"},{"start":738.283,"end":760.78,"text":"不叫做百億基金了 百億基金它做在什麼 它是在租場設備現代化在你們做了很多的補助 這認同第二期這68.81 或者你認為 我認為都應該要增加預算叫做續產復興計畫 著重三件事情生產效益 防疫安全和科學管理好 來 以上 部長你請回應"},{"start":762.967,"end":791.213,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的一些期許然後我個人對大部分的一定百分之百認同特別是您特別提到生物安全庫的資料的一個建立這是一個非常重要的對於我們後續的租場的這些管理跟有效的掌握那相關的郡巷的資料的一個部分那郡巷至於說哪些郡巷這個會回到專業去討論然後第三個就是透過這樣的方式做資料的整合跟AI的管理這個我想我百分之百認同那至於說"},{"start":792.193,"end":818.22,"text":"冷凍豬肉的部分的國產跟國外的去公布因為這個東西都是不是政府購買的如果是政府購買一定百分之百公開但是我們是透過一些其他的冷凍工會冷凍廠商他們來釋出那這個東西就是由他們我們沒有辦法得到說他們的一個資料這個但是我們會去努力將我們自己能夠掌握的資訊能夠對外講"},{"start":819.46,"end":846.837,"text":"那不管是國產的或是國外進口只要符合安全的我想對產地批次倉儲溫控紀錄這當然可以上網啊不是如果是我們自己生產的自己掌握的所以你對進口的你完全是沒有辦法掌握他的場地包括批次在他上到國內的哪個地方包括他在哪個倉儲的溫控紀錄現在是不可查以現在的管理法規"},{"start":847.557,"end":873.013,"text":"那您覺得有沒有需要去建置呢這是對於你在疫情期間釋出的冷凍豬肉當中的食安透明度你認為不必要嗎沒關係你如果有必要就跟這對大眾說這個在冷凍豬肉的釋出當中是沒有是食安是一個空窗期的我們是不需要把它的產現在沒做未來也不需要做請部長再詳時延夜後國產的部分"},{"start":877.255,"end":889.885,"text":"我們一定會有一個完整的溯源那國外進口的部分你要不要研議去建置呢沒有 國外進來的部分是衛福部他主責的國外進來是食品的部分那你覺得 本席要求你跟衛福部討論我們會跟衛福部溝通去對於在你疫情期間的食安透明度我意思講"},{"start":897.73,"end":922.876,"text":"這個沒問題 對10萬的透明度就沒有問題謝謝部長 請將委員所提 詳時研議後給委員來做透明那您對於這個第二期的百億計畫其實只有68.82億您要不要請怎麼樣的要去跟行政院報告這件事情你今天就要馬上報告啦我想這個部分我們之前也在行政院溝通應該很快就會核下來的"},{"start":923.556,"end":951.535,"text":"那你的做法我主張是到續產 復產基金喔生產效益 防疫安全 科學管理尤其科學管理不是只有防疫包括你租資的競爭力你的生產成本是導致你的價格是全球這個租價全球第二高你不覺得這是很丟臉的一件事情好 我們請部長因為時間的關係因為超過一半的時間這個你那麼認同在這個第二期的這樣的一個百億計畫當中"},{"start":954.196,"end":974.965,"text":"在叫做素產復興計畫著重在生產效益防疫安全科學觀如果沒有你還是只有在廠租廠的現代化設備的投入你並不會對於你防疫跟科學管理跟生產效益當中你是沒有錢的你拿來的錢你沒有靠這筆錢你怎麼可以推動剛才本席所講的這個智慧管理呢"},{"start":975.545,"end":980.429,"text":"好 謝謝林委員的發言我們也請農業部請將委員所提的詳詞給委員說明清楚我已經提醒了 我沒有意見主席我沒有意見我只是提醒部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":125,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時31分）有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，政策其實是要預防危機的發生，您今天的簡報也就是一個非常短期的救急因應方案，還沒有看到你中長期預防的機制。所以我還是要講我一直在倡議的智慧管理，決策要智慧管理，其實是從陳吉仲主委到您陳駿季部長，4年前本席就一直在倡議基因定序的重要性，它對於豬價的穩定、對於防疫上各養豬場菌相的掌握，以及成本的降低、生產力的提升，其實全部都可以畢其功於一役，而且是24小時、365天，所以今天我還是回到三、四年前開始倡議的，藉著這次非洲豬瘟的普查，一定要結合生物安全資料庫，進而建立穩定豬肉的供應與價格，守住食安跟產業的信任。","關於豬價的穩定，上週的時候，這不是本席神預測，從去年就提起豬價一定會上漲，您說你們知道且會掌握，結果搞到今年，我們豬價是全球第二高的國家。講回來防疫，守了7年，我們是東南亞少數能維持非疫情的國家，這次事件你們也做了因應，但是這些因應當中改以冷凍豬肉調度、停止屠宰及交易5天，這表示什麼事情？我們的市場供應鏈非常脆弱，食安資料是分散的。所以再次提醒你上一週本席的警告，豬價的穩定不是短期問題，而是結構問題，政府要痛定思痛，務必建立全國豬隻的生物安全資料，掌握環境與生物風險變化，才能在疫情、價格、食安三者找到平衡。今天的重點是藉著非洲豬瘟的普查，整合變成系統性的長期防線。","針對冷凍豬肉的調度跟食安，全國目前的冷凍豬肉儲藏量是6.2萬噸，每日消費是9,500噸，只能撐6天，後續禁宰的時間如果延長了，市場供給一定非常的緊急，所以我在這邊有兩個要求：第一個，市場的冷凍豬肉來源結構必須立即公開，這個公開是因為在疫情期間的食安透明度是最基本的社會信任，你要在48小時內，明確的將這批冷凍豬肉的國產比例跟進口比例公開；第二個，產地、批次與倉儲溫控紀錄是否上網可查？關於這兩個，如果你有在本席三、四年前提出建議時就開始建立起智慧決策共用平臺的話，其實這些我隨時問，你隨時都可以答，全國人民都可以看。你不做，那本席就只好再次要求，疫情期間的食安透明度是社會最基本的信任，要公開這兩項。","在禁宰期間，供應減少導致批發價格上漲，我現在都講民生，我現在是講人民，不是講你農業部。對於食安，價格漲幅如果超過了10%，現在豬價已經是天價，如果因為這一波禁宰之後要再上漲10%，必須拜託兩件事情，第一個是冷凍儲備的釋出，這個你已經在做了，請你也要啟動平抑豬價基金，趕快穩定市場價格，不要把豬成為農業部長期所苦，也不要把豬變成行政團隊的包袱，避免市場價格再次讓民眾變成恐慌性的採買，否則對現在的行政團隊又是雪上加霜，這是保障消費者、保護農民的底線，這邊是這兩項要求。","再來，結合普查建立豬隻的生物安全資料庫，非洲豬瘟的防疫不是靠臨時應變，現在你們是臨時應變，這次全國普查是建立起結構化資料的絕佳機會。我再次、再次第N次的要求，非洲豬瘟普查結合全國豬隻生物安全資料庫的建置，將其結合辦理，具體有三個：第一個，場區層級的資料；第二個，分子層級監測；第三個，資料整合與AI預警。場區層級的資料由縣市防疫所協助採樣，輔導具規模的中大型養豬場進行輔導，記錄每座養豬場的環境參數，包括溫溼度、餵食來源、進出人員、場區消毒紀錄，建立數位防疫檔案。這個如果你們有做，從三、四年前本席倡議到現在，如果你們有做，現在就不會……查到現在幾天了？黃金三天內，你們到現在還查不出來，溯源還查不出來，數位防疫，痛定思痛，做起來吧！針對中大型養豬場，如果你們事先做，台糖是最大宗，台糖先導入了資料，每座養豬場環境參數的導入，建立數位防疫的資料，中小型的就再看看，因為如果連中小型……本席的選區也有，中小型的如果要這樣要求下去，針對進出人員、場區消毒等，他們做不來，但是對於中大型的要先導入，中小型的就看他們的狀況，看怎麼要求。","第二個，分子層級的監測，國營事業──台糖先導入基因育種與分子檢測，以市場機制提升豬隻畜產的生產效益與安全性，在屠宰場端與樣區中對豬隻檢驗進行兩件事情，分子菌相檢測與結合生物晶片，百分百掌握豬隻環境的微生物組成變化，怎麼可能還有疫情發生？你都能掌握啊！這不僅能提前發現病毒跡象，而且用來追蹤環境污染跟抗藥性菌株，為未來食品安全管理奠定科學基礎，都是建立在科學。","最後是資料整合與AI預警，由防檢署整合各縣市的防疫資料庫，統一建立起豬隻健康環境檢測平臺，並以AI演算法偵測異常菌群變化，自動發出預警。依照歐盟食品安全局的報告，導入了分子檢測，也就是上述這三件事情，非洲豬瘟的再發率下降42%，這不是理論，這是實證，臺灣應該成為亞洲第一個以菌相資料防疫的國家。","再來講到價格，價格與防疫是可以並行的，從短期應變到長期治理，短期穩定豬價，從冷凍調度跟平抑基金，平抑基金是本席今天提出來的，還是一樣，長期穩定是靠資料科學與透明決策，建立豬隻生物安全資料庫之後有三件事情，你就坐著吹冷氣當你這個部長就夠了。第一個，透過即時檢測，這個安全庫有做出來，透過即時檢測，預測疫情對供應鏈的影響；第二個，你可以提早釋放冷凍庫存，避免價格劇烈波動；第三個，以資料驅動補助政策，連補助都建立在數據之上，針對高風險地區強化環境改善跟消毒設施。這樣的系統能夠幫助地方政府掌握實際豬隻分布跟廚餘使用的狀況，避免非法養豬或者不當廚餘流入市場，從源頭穩定價格跟食安。","接下來是防疫科學化，守住食安，重建人民的信任。臺灣已經防堵非洲豬瘟7年，防疫是長期戰，豬價穩定是民生戰，講好，豬價穩定是民生戰，防疫需要決心，市場是需要制度的。我一再強調，防疫不應該只是一時的禁止措施，更應該建立長期的科學化結構防線，這邊短期、長期，我再次要求農業部、期許農業部，從上禮拜本席的質詢之後，我這邊有要求兩個月內要建立起豬隻安全飼料庫，並且今天我再次強調，要與非洲豬瘟的普查一同實施，包括價格的波動也要求你了；在冷凍庫，包括平抑基金，也包括掌握豬隻分布跟廚餘的使用，這些您在簡報當中都有講，本席都認同。未來結構性的防疫精進，邊境的防堵要持續的做、落實的做，百分百的X光檢驗率；至於市場的管理，這個我也講了，結合國際GSI SunRise 2027標準的推動，Sunrise是一個有關標籤的國際化組織，好，他在2027年全球要推動就像ISO等等的，類似這樣一個標籤的全球性組織要推動，那我們就是配合做。豬隻屠宰導入QR code，確保豬隻流通的通訊透明可追溯，這不就是也是AI管理智慧平臺嗎？人要做好，豬才能管好，守住食安，就是守住農業，更是守住人民的信任。","最後，你們現在有一個基金（百億基金）在去年就已經截止，你們在去年6月24日就已經陳報行政院，行政院到現在還沒核定這所謂百億基金的第二期計畫。說百億也不到百億，也不過68.82億，農業部務必請行政院本週核定第二期的百億計畫。從去年到現在還沒核定，一年了，放在行政院長辦公室一年了，所以你現在請趕快核定這第二期的68.82億的計畫。但是我認為要更名叫什麼？不叫做百億基金了，百億基金在做什麼？它是在做豬場設備現代化，這部分你們做了很多的補助，這個我認同。第二期這68.8億，甚至我認為都應該要增加預算，應該叫做「畜產復興計畫」，著重三件事情：生產效益、防疫安全跟科學管理。來，以上請部長回應。"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的一些期許，我個人對大部分的一定百分之百認同，尤其是您特別提到生物安全庫的資料建立，這是非常重要的，對於我們後續豬場管理跟有效掌握相關菌相資料……至於說哪些菌相，這個會回到專業去討論。然後第三個就是透過這樣的方式做資料的整合跟AI的管理，這個我百分之百認同。至於說公布國產跟國外的冷凍豬肉這部分，因為這個東西都不是政府購買的，如果是政府購買，一定百分之百公開，但是我們是透過一些其他的冷凍公會、冷凍廠商來釋出，這個東西就是由他們……我們沒有辦法得到他們的資料，但是我們會努力，將我們自己能夠掌握的資訊對外講，不管是國產的或是國外進口的，只要符合安全的要求，我想對消費者都……"],["林委員岱樺：產地、批次、倉儲、溫控紀錄，這當然可以上網啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，如果是我們自己生產的、自己掌握的一定可以……"],["林委員岱樺：所以對於進口的，你完全沒有辦法掌握它的場地，包括批次以及散到國內哪個地方，包括在哪個倉儲的溫控紀錄，現在是不可查？"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的管理法規跟現在的制度沒辦法。"],["林委員岱樺：好。那您覺得有沒有需要去建置呢？對於你在疫情期間釋出的冷凍豬肉當中的食安透明度，你認為不必要嗎？如果……"],["陳部長駿季：我想國產的部分……"],["林委員岱樺：沒關係，你如果認為不必要，就對大眾說在冷凍豬肉釋出的當中是一個食安的空窗期，我們不需要把它的產……現在沒做未來也不需要做……"],["主席：請部長翔實研議後再給委員說明清楚，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這樣講，報告委員，我沒有這樣講。我是說國產的部分，我們一定會有完整的溯源，那國外進口的部分……"],["林委員岱樺：你要不要研議去建置呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，國外進來的部分是衛福部主責的，國外進來是食品的部分……"],["林委員岱樺：好，那你覺得……"],["陳部長駿季：所以國產的部分我們會努力……"],["林委員岱樺：那本席要求你跟衛福部討論……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會跟衛福部溝通。"],["林委員岱樺：對於疫情期間的食安透明度，我一直講疫情期間的食安……"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒問題，食安的透明度絕對沒有問題，我們會跟衛福部來努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，請將委員所提翔實研議後給委員說明。謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["林委員岱樺：對於第二期的百億計畫，其實只有68.82億，您要怎麼樣去跟行政院報告這件事情？"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["林委員岱樺：你今天就要馬上報告啦！"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們之前也在跟行政院溝通，應該很快就會核下來了。"],["林委員岱樺：那你的作法呢？我是主張叫做「畜產復興基金」喔，應著重於生產效益、防疫安全、科學管理，尤其科學管理不是只有防疫，包括你豬隻的競爭力，你的生產成本導致你的豬價是全球第二高，你不覺得這是很丟臉的一件事情嗎？"],["主席：好，我們請部長，因為時間的關係，因為超過一倍以上的時間了。"],["林委員岱樺：您認不認同第二期的百億計畫應該叫做畜產復興計畫，應著重在生產效益、防疫安全、科學管理？如果沒有，還是只有在豬場的現代化設備的投入，對於防疫跟科學管理跟生產效益這部分你是沒有錢的，你哪來的錢？你沒有靠這筆錢，你怎麼可以推動剛才本席所講的智慧管理呢？不可能的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力朝這個方向來做，但是基金有基金的……"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的發言，我們也請農業部針對委員所提的，翔實給委員說明清楚。謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：好，我已經提醒了，我沒有意見。","主席，我沒有意見，我只是提醒部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鄭天財委員，請詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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史中將他現在是局長 他被點名了那他本身也許是資安專家他退下來之後呢 他找工作開始遇到困難或者他在旅行的時候 我那天問國安局我們不是Interpol的會員 中國是"},{"start":190.322,"end":216.816,"text":"他把這個丟到裡面的黃色通緝名單紅色通緝名單的時候在旅行上會導致一些不便利還有一些風險那我們當然用化名來處理也是另外一種不便利他的資歷沒辦法去累積我的意思說就我們相關機敏工作人員他為國家犧牲付出那我們比照我剛才講軍情單位或者勤工相關單位有沒有適當的補貼的計畫有沒有這個打算"},{"start":220.393,"end":233.668,"text":"因為這些人員我覺得他們發布的有點狀況不太一樣因為有自動電軍也有這個星戰大隊對 星戰大隊自動電軍是應該是比照情報機關"},{"start":235.467,"end":253.538,"text":"那可能有相關的這些法制可以援引作為一個依據那新戰大隊的部分呢他並不是同情報機關我這邊我們今天沒有說要答案啦甚至有答案我們未必要在這邊揭露我建議部長跟相關單位去研議一下"},{"start":254.338,"end":269.623,"text":"如果這樣的情形它屬於勤工法規定的單位我們有沒有什麼適當的救濟或者補貼計畫那對於非勤工法的單位我們有沒有什麼樣的打算至少讓弟兄知道我在這個國軍的大家庭裡面為國效力"},{"start":271.377,"end":297.535,"text":"部隊有考慮到我 考慮到我面對的風險那我這一個部分我希望我們國防部如果有這樣的方案的話適當的方式讓委員會知道那我們接到一些部隊一些想法反應的時候也可以幫你們做說明因為事實上公布的有很多其實不是現役的人員並不是現役但他因為他現役時候的情形如果遭致損失我認為還是要給予關懷"},{"start":299.448,"end":322.927,"text":"他不是因為他自己的事嘛他是因為幫國家效力遭遇到這樣的情形我們適度的關懷關懷的方案本席間沒有要求說一定要怎麼樣那你要有個方案出來讓他知道部隊有看到我這一塊這樣因為離退的人員將來回來也是我們的戰力啊他還沒有整個被除役嘛是 我們會來研議因為部長你本身也從國安會秘書長到國防部"},{"start":324.857,"end":345.194,"text":"針對中國解放軍的這些動作我們有沒有一些類似的制裁的反制美國做過美國把他們的軍備局局長他們的名詞跟我們不一樣美國把軍備局局長的海外資產還有他的遷徙旅遊列為制裁對象我們國防部有沒有考慮"},{"start":347.728,"end":368.908,"text":"我想就這個部分應該如果要討論這件事情的話我覺得應該是有國安會來協調因為中國在公布這件事情的時候據我了解也不是國防部在發布他是用發言單位 他在做星戰 認知作戰國務院還有公安局"},{"start":371.009,"end":398.749,"text":"他是用發布通緝的方式他有他政治目的他把他內政化那美國曾經就中國幾個軍備相關的單位進行制裁那我不是說我們要完全這樣做我是說思考一下跟盟友特別是美國這邊來思考針對中國解放軍威脅我們國家的安全傷害區域安全的情形下大家可以合作讓這樣子的人"},{"start":401.371,"end":424.148,"text":"這些賊要抓賊頭嘛 把他點一下 制裁一下因為根據中國自己的統計資料他們的高官貴人 海外藏的資產跟親屬是一大堆啦這個我是給部長建議 這當然可以到國安會去討論所以有關這個相關單位 資通監軍 軍情局等等這當然是一個認知作戰"},{"start":424.928,"end":451.028,"text":"那我們一方面要穩定自己人的軍心另外一方面適當的反制作為讓對方被點到的人他也會難過一下像之前美國空軍學院把他們的火箭軍所有的座標連軍犬的訓練單位座標都列出來隔沒一兩個月他們火箭軍從司令副司令到這個他們叫做子戰員通通都換掉了這個是給部長做建議下一個議題我要請教這個比較嚴肅了"},{"start":453.609,"end":478.096,"text":"我們的邊線筆其實今天剛好主席給我們比較長的時間我們來研究一下邊線筆我先請教部長我們對於部隊的邊線筆有一個名詞叫做戰力域值英文叫ThresholdThreshold就是臨界點戰力域值我們自己國軍有沒有設定那個是百分之多少這個是不是請"},{"start":479.758,"end":500.212,"text":"你知道戰力域值這個是我們有關邊線比到達這個臨界點部隊就不太能夠拉出去了委員好 我首先說明我們國軍整個目標邊線比的目標是80%美軍的邊線比是多少它的臨界點在哪裡85%啦 我幫你查了啦美軍的戰力訓練跟裝備應該比我們好"},{"start":507.742,"end":527.61,"text":"可他邊線比達到85%在美軍的定義這個部隊要研究為什麼發生這個事情這個部隊是沒辦法拉出去作戰的就是戰力減損的狀態那我們如果看一下我們國軍歷年的邊線比我現在邊線比還是用整體來除其實這樣除是不對的喔我應該看飛機 空軍的他負責維修飛機的"},{"start":530.851,"end":540.813,"text":"我海軍陸戰隊的我裝甲兵的那樣看會更清楚但是以平均數來看2020年我們整體有88.572021年到87.572022年到822023年到802024年到78今年大概我看是75上下一直往下掉現在目前是78.6你看78.6比你們自己設的臨界點80%也是比較低嘛"},{"start":561.28,"end":590.163,"text":"是跟委員說明就是說兩個方面第一個方面就是說從119年開始一直到現在其實每年的我們的編制數都是越來越多的那其實我們現在的人數跟111年的那你的意思是說我們的分母變大了我的編制有擴充我有增兵編制變大了但是蘿蔔坑變多了蘿蔔雖然沒有少但是坑變大所以數字掉下來嗎"},{"start":591.664,"end":611.001,"text":"我們看細部數字 這數字是你們的喔你看一下喔 我們以士兵來看機部單位 72% 炮兵 68%你可以往下看 這數據你們都看得到兵的部分 你看防空飛彈指揮部 41%"},{"start":615.438,"end":642.2,"text":"好幾個單位55有69 67以美軍的這個叫做threshold臨界點來講85%我們沒有一個沒有一個達標耶以我們自己的80%來看是很嚴重的低喔事關的部分只有少數幾個單位勉強達標多數都在按照我們國軍的最低域值戰力域值就最低標準限以下"},{"start":643.605,"end":646.7,"text":"為什麼士兵為什麼士兵特別低"},{"start":648.098,"end":677.336,"text":"跟委員說明我分三個方面來跟委員說明我們其實今年從去年到今年所有的成效都在逐步的提升沒有啊我看到數字是一年一年往下掉啊就是說除了編制數增加之外另外就是少子化我們在109年那個少子化我們20年前21年前少生的現在也不會補生啊少子化是一個區間那不是一年兩年我現在跟你研究的情形就是說你剛才講編制放大"},{"start":677.796,"end":691.006,"text":"我可以接受但那個精準的數據因為屬於軍事機密我沒辦法去算你的編制如果增加了2000人足不足以影響這個比例我是懷疑喔以統計上來看我現在是要你找出這個問題來你看像裝甲單位"},{"start":694.549,"end":713.872,"text":"裝甲是最需要專業的 我一個戰車營要多少人我們曾經因為車長邊線筆掉到六成五以下 第九屆吧當時我們就把少衛中衛到上衛他可以延到17年 擇優加三可以到20年"},{"start":715.253,"end":741.352,"text":"讓中衛 少衛的年輕軍官他不用擔心他升不上去 領不到終身縫他有個願景 我們希望穩定嘛所以你要找出病因來 我們才能找出解方你用錯的話 會產生什麼情形邊線筆不足 第一個戰力不足第二個我們現在很多高精的裝備在操作上專業性不足的人來操作 他的危險性會升高"},{"start":742.907,"end":769.46,"text":"會有這些問題所以你們到底有沒有研究過為什麼賓的部分特別低跟委員說明我們今年的數據我用今年數據來跟委員做說明不市府在112年是5400113年是5057元但是今年到現在10月份是2600多元也就是說不市府我們到目前為止比去年同期減少1400這個叫流盈率嘛是流盈率"},{"start":769.64,"end":793.535,"text":"你們流營率沒有降 你們流營率在86%以上這是不適服的 那流營率我們部班標準是76去年部長來的時候 採取很多人性化的管理措施之後我們去年的流營率是82 今年到目前為止是86對 我印象你流營率 流營率到86 好事老兵長留久用 戰力強可是我們的邊線比較往下掉 就代表什麼問題"},{"start":794.898,"end":821.207,"text":"招募沒有募新的進來跟委員報告因為我們如果拿三月的邊線比是76.9的話現在的邊線比78.6所以我當然希望我們還是朝向更好的方向發展那是第一點 第二點的話就是說有一些當時在討論各項佳績的時候就有討論到說哪些部隊的邊線比是"},{"start":821.587,"end":839.095,"text":"所以這個就是我要最後建議的結論所以我們當時才會在這個從4月1號開始我們調升這個志願家族之外主要就著重在這個戰鬥部隊的他在不同的家族留下我們要的戰力嘛所以部長因為時間超過了我還聽說一個現象我們駝江級的邊線筆徑"},{"start":845.748,"end":848.19,"text":"低於50%有沒有這個現象 海軍這邊 駝江級我們這個最新的這算艇啦 800噸上下的 艦啦"},{"start":858.895,"end":887.437,"text":"海軍參謀長那個駝江級它整體的邊線大概會弱於大概70到72有到70到72沒有低於50低於50會嚇到應該是有些船的士兵那因為士兵數的確是有些船的士兵數會多跟少但我會按照任務來做邊背跟調整所以我建議部長跟我們軍總第一個把那一個戰力域值也就是那個臨界點在每個單位可能要把它當作一個科學來研究"},{"start":888.277,"end":915.18,"text":"美軍是85%但他每個單位還不一樣到這個單位低於那裡對戰力就有減損的時候我們該做什麼作為這是第一個第二個我們4月1號或者過去這麼多年來其實國軍的薪資我聽到很多專業的將領在講薪資不是齊頭式的問題而是透過專業的加擠在特別辛苦或特別需要或特別專業的地方透過加擠把人才留下來"},{"start":917.182,"end":944.318,"text":"這個部分其實我倒希望國防部提出一個方案跟我們委員會大家來討論我們都希望加薪但是每一分薪水每一分預算用在對的對國防有幫助的那這個我今天有關編線筆花了一點時間跟部長這邊討論我們未來繼續再探討這個話題我們希望看到你們提出一些改善的方案我想不管在招募或者不釋乎或者留營率或者是有關這個全面檢視整體檢視軍人待遇我們都會持續來進行好 謝謝 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。有幾個問題要請教部長，第一個，最近大概連續3波中共在點名懸賞通緝不管是軍情局、資通電軍或者心戰大隊等等，當然，作賊的喊抓賊，他們的法律也不及於臺灣，其內容拼湊而來，不見得正確，我們都知道，就不重複了。我要請教的是，畢竟他還是撈到了一些資料，我們國防部對於洩漏的管道有沒有亡羊補牢，把這個洞補上了沒有？現在是軍安總隊在管這一塊，還是哪個單位在管這一塊，是不是先請教部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我想就這些任意拼湊的相關資料，第一個，我們還是要說明，這個是屬於中共認知作戰的一部分，產生一種心理威懾。"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們的部分，我們會要求同仁在社群媒體上面從事任何相關發布的時候，不要做任何跟他部隊……"],["王委員定宇：部長，有兩個洞要堵上，他當然還是撈一些資料，有的是從社群，有的是從個人的一些資料，這個是過去已經發生的，未來我們對於機敏單位軍事官兵身分保密的強化，你們有沒有備案出來？"],["顧部長立雄：現在會進行相關進一步的保密作為，包括研議利用、運用化名的方式等等。"],["王委員定宇：機敏單位自己知道，當然，我們不能全軍都用化名，這等於沒有化名一樣。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：就是哪些單位要用化名來保護他們的身分，我還是有一個建議，如果他在為國效力、保護國家的情形下，這些軍士官兵也是我們的弟兄，我們應該要保護他們。所以他們如果遭遇到類似的情形，不管有或沒有，對岸公布的準不準，我們不說，對於相關的保護，還有如果招致損失，應該比照軍情人員給與相關的補貼，我不知道國防部現在有沒有進行這樣的作業，或者有沒有這個打算？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會在第一時間對這些單位及官兵給予關懷輔導，並且進一步採取適當的保護措施。"],["王委員定宇：我舉一個例子，比方史順文中將現在是局長，他被點名了，他本身也許是資安專家，退下來之後找工作開始遇到困難，或者旅行的時候……我那天問國安局，我們不是INTERPOL的會員，但中國是，他把這個丟到裡面的黃色通緝名單、紅色通緝名單的時候，會使當事人在旅行上導致一些不便利及風險，我們用化名來處理也是另外一種不便利，因為他的資歷沒辦法去累積。我的意思是，就相關機敏工作人員為國家犧牲、付出，有沒有比照我剛剛講的軍情單位或者情工相關單位，給予適當補貼的計畫？有沒有這個打算？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得這些人員發布的狀況有點不太一樣，其中有資通電軍，也有心戰大隊。"],["王委員定宇：對，心戰大隊。"],["顧部長立雄：資通電軍應該是比照情報機關，可能有相關的法制可以援引作為依據；心戰大隊的部分，並不視同情報機關……"],["王委員定宇：我今天沒有說要答案，甚至於有答案，未必要在這邊揭露，我建議部長及相關單位去研議一下，如果有這樣的情形，對於屬於情工法規定的單位，我們有沒有什麼適當的救濟或者補貼計畫？對於非情工法規範的單位，我們有沒有什麼樣的打算？至少讓弟兄知道在國軍的大家庭裡面為國效力，部隊有考慮到他們面對的風險。就這個部分，我希望國防部如果有這樣的方案，請以適當的方式讓委員會知道，我們接到一些部隊、一些想法反映的時候也可以幫你們做說明。另外……"],["顧部長立雄：事實上公布的有很多其實不是現役的人員，並不是現役的。"],["王委員定宇：對，但是他如果因為現役時候的情形招致損失，我認為還是要給予關懷，他不是因為自己的事，而是因為幫國家效力遭遇到這樣的情形，我們還是要給予適度的關懷。至於關懷的方案，本席今天沒有要求一定要怎麼樣，但你們要有一個方案出來，讓他知道部隊有看到他們這一塊，因為離退的人員將來回來後也是我們的戰力，畢竟他還沒有整個被除役。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會來研議。"],["王委員定宇：因為部長本身也是從國安會秘書長到國防部，針對中國解放軍這些動作，我們有沒有一些類似的制裁來反制？美國做過喔！美國把他們軍備局局長的海外資產還有他的遷徙、旅遊列為制裁對象，我們國防部有沒有考慮呢？"],["顧部長立雄：就這個部分，如果要討論這件事情的話，我覺得應該是由國安會來協調相關部會，因為中國在公布這件事情的時候，據我了解，也不是國防部在發布。"],["王委員定宇：他是用發言單位，而且是在做心戰、認知作戰……"],["顧部長立雄：國務院還有公安局……"],["王委員定宇：他是用發布通緝的方式，這有他的政治目的，就是要將其內政化。美國曾經就中國幾個軍備相關單位進行制裁，我不是說我們也要完全這樣做，我是說可以思考一下跟我們的盟友，特別是美國，針對中國解放軍威脅我們國家安全、傷害區域安全的情形下，大家可以合作讓這樣子的人，畢竟抓賊要抓賊頭，把他點一下、制裁一下。因為根據中國自己的統計資料，他們的高官貴人海外藏的資產跟親屬是一大堆，以上是我給部長的建議，這當然可以到國安會去討論，包括相關單位資通電軍、軍情局等等，這當然是一個認知作戰，我們一方面要穩定自己人的軍心，另外一方面適當的反制作為，讓對方被點到的人也會難過一下。像之前美國空軍學院把他們的火箭軍所有的座標，連軍犬訓練單位的座標都列出來，隔沒一、兩個月，他們火箭軍從司令、副司令到指戰員，通通都換掉了，以上是給部長做建議。","下一個我要請教的議題，這個就比較嚴肅了，就是我們的編現，今天剛好主席給我們比較長的時間，我們就來研究一下編現比，先請教部長，對於部隊的編現比有一個名詞叫做戰力閾值，英文叫threshold臨界點，而我們國軍自己有沒有設定戰力閾值？是百分之多少？戰力閾值與我們有關的就是當編現比到達臨界點，部隊就不太能夠拉出去了。"],["顧部長立雄：這部分請劉次長說明。"],["劉次長沛智：委員好。我首先說明我們國軍整個編現比的目標是80%。"],["王委員定宇：美軍的編現比是多少？他的臨界點在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，這個我再去……"],["王委員定宇：85%！我幫你查了，美軍的戰力訓練跟裝備應該比我們好，可是他編現比達到85%，在美軍的定義上，這個部隊就要研究為什麼發生這個事情，畢竟這個部隊是沒辦法拉出去作戰的，就是呈戰力減損的狀態。","如果來看一下我們國軍歷年的編現比，我現在的編現比還是用整體來除，其實這樣除是不對的，應該分開看空軍負責維修飛機的、海軍陸戰隊的或是裝甲兵的，那樣看會更清楚，但是以平均數來看，2020年我們整體有88.57%；2021年到87.57%；2022年到82%；2023年到80%；2024年到78%；今年我看大概就是75%上下，就是一直往下掉。"],["劉次長沛智：目前是78.6%。"],["王委員定宇：現在是78.6%，與你們自己設的臨界點80%相較，也是比較低嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員說明，兩個方面，第一個方面，從119年開始一直到現在，其實每年我們編制數都是越來越多的，其實我們現在的人數跟……"],["王委員定宇：你的意思是說我們的分母變大了……"],["劉次長沛智：是，分母變大了……"],["王委員定宇：我的編制有擴充，有增兵所以編制變大了，蘿蔔坑變多了，蘿蔔雖然沒有少，但是坑變多，所以數字掉下來嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：是，我們逐步在做努力。"],["王委員定宇：我們來看細部數字，這數字是你們提供的，以士兵來看，現在機步單位是72%、炮兵68%，這些數據你們都看得到；士兵的部分，像防空飛彈指揮部是41%，其他好幾個單位分別是55%、69%、67%，以美軍的（threshold）臨界點85%來講，我們沒有一個達標，以我們自己的80%來看，是很嚴重的低；士官的部分，只有少數幾個單位勉強達標，多數都是按照我們國軍的最低戰力閾值，就是在最低標準線以下，請問為什麼士兵的部分特別低？"],["劉次長沛智：我分三個方面來跟委員說明，其實我們從去年到今年，所有的成效都在逐步的提升……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，我看到的數字是一年一年往下掉啊！"],["劉次長沛智：除了編制數增加之外，另外就是少子化，我們在109年……"],["王委員定宇：關於少子化，我們二十年前少生的，現在也不會補生，少子化是一個區間，不是一年、兩年的問題。我現在跟你研究這個情形，你剛才講編制放大，我可以接受，但那個精準的數據因為屬於軍事機密，我沒辦法去算，你的編制如果增加了2,000人，足不足以影響這個比例我是懷疑的，就統計上來看，我現在是要你找出這個問題來。","像裝甲單位是最需要專業的，一個戰車營要有多少人？我們曾經因為車長編現比掉到六成五以下，應該是在第9屆的時候，當時我們就把少尉、中尉到上尉服役年限，可以延到17年，擇優加3可以到20年，讓中尉、少尉的年輕軍官不用擔心他升不上去，領不到終身俸，讓他能有個願景，畢竟我們希望能讓其穩定。所以你要找出病因來，我們才能找出解方，若你用錯的話會產生什麼情形？當編現比不足，第一個，戰力不足；第二個，我們現在很多高精的裝備在操作上由專業性不足的人來操作，他的危險性會升高，會有這些問題，所以你們到底有沒有研究過，為什麼士兵的部分特別低？"],["劉次長沛智：我用今年的數據來跟委員做說明，「不適服」在112年是5,400員；113年是5,057員，但是今年到現在10月份是兩千六百多員，也就是說「不適服」到目前為止，比去年同期減少了一千四百多員。"],["王委員定宇：這個叫留營率。"],["劉次長沛智：是，留營率。"],["王委員定宇：你們留營率沒有降，你們留營率在86%以上。"],["劉次長沛智：這是不適服的，留營率的部分，我們部頒標準是76%，去年部長來的時候，採取很多人性化的管理措施之後，我們去年的留營率是82%，今年到目前為止是86%。"],["王委員定宇：對，留營率到86%是好事，老兵長留久用、戰力強，可是我們的編現比還往下掉，這就代表什麼問題？在招募上沒有募新的進來。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，如果拿3月編現比是76.9%來比的話，現在的編現比78.6%，我當然希望能朝向更好的方向發展，這是第一點；第二點，當時在討論各項加給的時候，就有討論到哪些部隊的編現比是比較低的……"],["王委員定宇：所以這就是我要建議的……"],["顧部長立雄：所以當時才會從4月1號開始，我們調升志願役加給之外，主要就著重在戰鬥部隊的……"],["王委員定宇：用不同的加給，留下我們要的戰力。"],["顧部長立雄：對、對、對。"],["王委員定宇：我的發言時間已經超過了，不過我還聽說一個現象，我們沱江級的編現比已經低於50%，海軍這邊有沒有這個現象？沱江級，我們最新的艦艇，約八百噸上下。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我是海軍參謀長。沱江級整體的編現大概會落於大概70到72……"],["王委員定宇：沒有低於50%？若低於50%，會讓人嚇到！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：關於您講的數字，因為的確有些船的士兵數會有多跟少，但我會按照任務來做編備跟調整。"],["王委員定宇：所以我建議部長跟我們的軍種，第一個，把戰力閾值，也就是那個臨界點，在每個單位，可能要把它當作一個科學來研究，美軍是85%，但他每個單位還不一樣，然後這個單位低於那個臨界點、對戰力有減損的時候，我們該有什麼作為，這是第一個。第二個，我們在4月1號，或者過去這麼多年來，其實國軍薪資的部分，我聽到很多專業將領在講，薪資不是齊頭式的問題，而是透過專業的加給，在特別辛苦或特別需要或特別專業的地方，透過加給把人才留下來，針對這個部分，我希望國防部提出一個方案，跟委員會大家來討論。我們都希望加薪，但是每一分薪水、每一分預算都要用在對國防有幫助的地方，我今天花了一點時間跟部長討論編現比，我們未來再繼續探討這個話題，希望看到你們提出一些改善的方案。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想不管在招募或者「不適服」或者留營率或者是有關全面檢視、整體檢視軍人待遇方面，我們都會持續來進行，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}},{"id":"164643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f1f5c91750503d37218d439df1f91adcbd78a287304ef9f3bd93a97ab1467137928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:18:29 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做過討論他告訴我們為了要讓消費者安心20天是他們可以撐得住的就是20天不要台幣20天不要用廚餘去吃的他們是可以撐得住的農業部怎麼看"},{"start":323.717,"end":337.09,"text":"我想農業部針對這樣子的一個禁運禁載跟禁止使用廚餘我們是用他的一個可能發病的潛伏期15天所以我們的整個的禁運或是禁用廚餘是用以15天為"},{"start":339.516,"end":366.876,"text":"為最大的一個管制的時間點所以你現在是要禁載禁運跟禁用廚餘你現在抓的天數是15天但是我們每5天去做一個觀察那這些觀察就是讓我們的疫調能夠就是更精準的觀察那如果說在這15天之內如果說我們的疫情跟他的疫調的結果他沒有在擴散的時候那我們可能有機會提早解除這樣的一個禁令"},{"start":367.416,"end":395.482,"text":"所以現在就是很清楚的告訴大家以15天為基準 禁載 禁運 禁用廚餘 養豬現在是以15天但是你用5天為一個觀察基數嘛所以是不是農業部是不是也能夠5天就公布一次你們這5天的觀察期的數據跟現在的進程 你們的疫調的進程能夠讓社會大眾 能夠讓消費者也安心也能夠讓我們的養豬業者安心"},{"start":395.942,"end":421.775,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在前進指揮所每一天工作會議結束以後每一天都會召開記者會對外說明每一天會把我們的疫調的進度對外說明讓我們的民眾了解好 謝謝部長第二個我要請教昨天你們的昨天我們的這個應變中心啊也特別提到那這些病死豬的處理模式應變中心要求這些所有的病死豬必須焚化"},{"start":424.238,"end":451.62,"text":"對不對必須要送到焚化爐去焚化但是台中市政府說他沒有辦法焚化台中市政府主張採取掩埋的方式部長您知道這件事情嗎那如果他要掩埋我要請教埋在哪裡如何掩埋對於土壤對於水源會不會造成污染對於環境會不會造成影響"},{"start":453.393,"end":468.972,"text":"有合法的掩埋場嗎有合法的病死豬掩埋場嗎部長你有掌握嗎有 我跟委員報告就是對一般的病死豬除了主要是送到化資廠但是如果說因為特殊的原因沒有辦法送到化資廠的話他是可以就地掩埋"},{"start":469.632,"end":484.605,"text":"或者是焚燒的部分但是掩埋也有一般掩埋的相關的作業規範而不是說就挖個坑就把病死豬就丟進去了所以相關的就算是掩埋它相關的部分也有相關的一個規範那今天最重要就是"},{"start":485.7,"end":510.414,"text":"因為台中本身是現在看起來的主要的疫區那我們做框定我們不希望說台東市裡面的這些豬隻有流到外縣市就是移出外縣市所以針對台東市是特殊的我們希望說他的病死豬的部分能夠就地處理那這個處理包括我們昨天也調度了一些生物處理機讓他去做有效的處理"},{"start":511.431,"end":529.692,"text":"部長你還是沒有回答問題啊他就地處理是要就地怎麼處理他是就地掩埋還是就地在地焚化爐去焚化嘛如果你很堅持用在地的焚化爐去焚化那我覺得這件事情我是支持農業部喔昨天我們在中央影片中間你可以幫他協助看他要再去到哪裡就地的焚化爐我覺得"},{"start":530.953,"end":547.561,"text":"立刻把它分化這個對大家來講會是比較安心埋在土裡你根本不知道他埋在哪一個野埋場那那個野埋場合不合法那個野埋場的處置作業適不適合這個都是大家擔心的一件事情所以這個可能會後我要請部長再"},{"start":549.014,"end":570.592,"text":"還是部長您現在要說明我們昨天開會的時候我們就請台中市政府送到焚化爐去但是焚化爐太大隻不能弄所以我們也增掉了許多生物處理機在焚化爐旁邊透過生物處理機來處理到一部分以後再進到焚化爐去我們是用這樣的態度台中市願意遵守嗎台中市願意已經媒合了我們媒合了很多這個所以未來會這個"},{"start":571.735,"end":589.63,"text":"好如果是這樣不好意思主席再給我兩分鐘的時間這個剛剛關務署也特別報告我想這個農業部大概也有密切掌握其實這幾年來違規攜帶豬肉入境的還是層出不窮而且這個數量都還是頗多那我們的宣導"},{"start":590.771,"end":611.683,"text":"我們一直告訴大家不要攜帶豬肉入境這個會造成台灣有感染非洲豬瘟的風險結果沒有想到藍白兩黨認為你們的煤炫預算太多所以就聯手大砍了煤炫預算偉大的黃國昌委員還說要砍到讓大家有感"},{"start":612.783,"end":631.804,"text":"這真的大家就有感啦非洲豬瘟進來啦防疫宣傳不夠啊防疫動作不夠啊真的讓大家很有感而且這個感是憤怒啊被他們這樣預算亂砍導致台灣未來有可能成為非洲豬瘟的疫區我覺得這個是讓我們最感到"},{"start":632.865,"end":655.444,"text":"憤怒的地方部長最後一個我要跟您提醒我們現在等於是在亡羊補牢等於是在幫人家擦屁股在處理後續的事情但是後續的事情包括我剛剛講的這個病死豬的焚化處理的流程這個你們一定要趕快建立所謂的SOP第二個我們要求所有的"},{"start":655.984,"end":673.583,"text":"不管是養豬場也好所有的市場等等都要做清消那這些消毒水的供應是不是也能夠請農業部來協助各地方縣市政府趕快發送到各個養豬場或者是肉品市場或者是屠宰場等等"},{"start":674.805,"end":700.888,"text":"相關的場域這一些消毒水的發放甚至類似這樣的一個防疫的補助經費是不是也能夠請貴府部趕快盤點然後趕快來協助地方政府來做總之我希望雖然已經被突破了但是後面的亡羊補牢的工作後面的圍堵我們還是要持續加速甚至加緊加嚴來進行部長這個可以做得到嗎"},{"start":701.288,"end":722.131,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒這四點我們已經第三點第四點已經昨天就宣布了而且在做了那我在這邊要特別特別藉這個機會呼籲各地方政府因為現在各地方政府本身的一些畫製廠他是不允許其他縣市進到那邊畫製的那我覺得在這個時間點除了台東市我們單獨處理以外"},{"start":722.651,"end":736.688,"text":"那其他縣市的這些正常的病死豬的部分希望各縣市能夠一起合作讓他的豬隻能夠進到花枝場這樣的話才不會流露到非法的這些丟棄我們希望說大家一起努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":89,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時18分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長好。部長，你在10月20日左右聽到這個消息，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：21日。"],["邱委員議瑩：21日左右聽到這個消息，你內心第一個想法是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我內心……"],["邱委員議瑩：我直接講啦！或許你不好意思表達，我們守非洲豬瘟守了6、7年，好不容易在今年5月獲得世界動物衛生組織的認證，臺灣是亞洲唯一一個口蹄疫、豬瘟、非洲豬瘟的三大非疫區，結果一夕之間破功！我昨天聽到這個消息的時候非常難過。部長，這個是你們整理出來的整個疑似非洲豬瘟案例大事記，因為你昨天是用疑似這件事情來開記者會，我進一步請教，根據你今天這一份報告一項一項來請教你，我看大事記就不用再特別看了，初步的檢驗結果PCR核酸呈陽性，代表的意思是什麼？確認它是非洲豬瘟，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：非洲豬瘟的確認等一下是不是可以請我們的獸醫所來報告？因為核酸片段是代表它有這樣子的核酸片段，但是還是要做完成的定序。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以還沒有做完完成的定序，現在還不能告訴大家是不是確定是？"],["陳部長駿季：定序昨天做完了，但是根據WOAH規定，如果國家發生第一例的時候就必須做病毒分類，病毒分類大概要兩個禮拜的時間，病毒分類確定之後才能跟WOAH通報，所以這段時間我們是用疑似的方式，但是用最高規格的方式來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果是這樣的話，我也尊重你們的處理機制，不過部長，我想要看的是，這件事情我覺得一定是有某些疏失，這些疏失會出現在哪裡？比如，10月10日的時候臺中這個牧場已經開始出現豬隻死亡，14日臺中動保處去訪視，但是沒有採樣，動保處認為沒有異常。可是依照中央的規定，只要有不確定性、只要有不知名原因的死亡，都應該要立刻採檢，結果臺中動保處拖了10天，已經死了117頭豬了才通報。更扯的是，在10月13日的時候這一家牧場還快速運了30頭豬出去賣，我不知道他內心到底知不知道他的牧場出狀況了，想趁這個時間趕快把豬賣掉。","我看到最難過的是昨天的新聞，最愛驗豬肉的盧秀燕市長，一盒西布特羅驗到台糖虧損連連，最該驗的豬隻死亡不驗、不開記者會、不說明，竟然還叫大家去參加臺中購物節拚經濟，盧秀燕市長到底知不知道養豬業者所有的產值受影響的是多少億？剛剛我們召委一開始主持會議的時候就講了，這影響將近千億的產值，這千億的產值盧秀燕賠得起嗎？盧秀燕可以擔得起來嗎？臺中動保處可以擔得起這個責任嗎？很顯然沒有！現在所有的作為幾乎全部是要交給你們農業部去做，部長，我要請教，如果交給農業部去做後面的精進作為，昨天你們有講了幾個措施：第一個，禁宰豬肉。第二個，禁用廚餘餵食。到底禁宰豬肉跟禁用廚餘餵食期間是多久？過去我們曾經有禁止廚餘餵食1個月，針對今天臺中的這個案子，你們禁止廚餘餵食會多久？20天？我們跟全國的養豬協會做過電話聯繫、做過討論，它告訴我們，為了要讓消費者安心，20天是他們可以撐得住的，就是20天不要殺豬，20天不要用廚餘去餵豬，他們是可以撐得住的，農業部怎麼看？"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部針對禁運、禁宰跟禁止使用廚餘的天數，是用它可能發病的潛伏期15天為基準，所以我們整個禁運或是禁用廚餘是以15天為一個最大的管制時間點。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你現在是要禁宰、禁運跟禁用廚餘，抓的天數是15天？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是15天，但是我們每5天會去做一個觀察，這些觀察就是讓我們的疫調能夠更精準，在這15天之內，如果我們疫調的結果是疫情沒有再擴散的話，我們可能有機會提早解除這樣的一個禁令。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以現在就是很清楚的告訴大家，禁宰、禁運、禁用廚餘養豬，是以15天為基準。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是你用5天為一個觀察基數嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以農業部是不是也能夠每5天就公布一次你們這5天觀察期的數據跟現在你們疫調的進程，讓社會大眾、消費者安心，也能夠讓我們的養豬業者安心？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們前進指揮所在每一天的工作會議結束以後，都會召開記者會把我們疫調的進度對外說明，讓民眾了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝部長。第二個我要請教，昨天你們的應變中心也特別提到這些病死豬的處理模式，應變中心要求這些所有的病死豬必須焚化，對不對？必須要送到焚化爐去焚化，但是臺中市政府說它沒有辦法焚化，臺中市政府主張採取掩埋的方式。部長，您知道這件事情嗎？如果它要掩埋，我要請教，埋在哪裡、如何掩埋？對於土壤、水源會不會造成污染，對於環境會不會造成影響？有合法的病死豬掩埋場嗎？部長，你有掌握嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有，我跟委員報告，一般的病死豬主要是送到化製場，但是如果因為特殊的原因沒有辦法送到化製場的話，它是可以就地掩埋或者是焚燒，但是掩埋也有相關的作業規範，而不是說挖個坑就把病死豬丟進去了，所以就算是掩埋，也有相關的規範。今天最重要的就是，因為現在看起來臺中是主要的疫區，我們做匡定，我們不希望臺中市裡面的這些豬隻流到外縣市、移出外縣市，所以針對臺中市是較特殊的，我們希望它的病死豬能夠就地處理，這個處理包括我們昨天也調度了一些生物處理機，讓它去做有效的處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，你還是沒有回答問題，它就地處理是要怎麼處理？它是就地掩埋，還是就地以在地的焚化爐去焚化？如果你很堅持用在地的焚化爐去焚化，我覺得這件事情我是支持農業部的。"],["陳部長駿季：昨天我們在中央應變中心……"],["邱委員議瑩：你可以協助他們，看他們要就地載去哪裡的焚化爐，我覺得立刻把它焚化，對大家來講會比較安心。埋在土裡，你根本不知道它埋在哪一個掩埋場、那個掩埋場合不合法、那個掩埋場的處置作業適不適合，這個都是大家擔心的事情，所以這個部分會後我要請部長再協助，還是部長您現在要說明？"],["陳部長駿季：我們昨天開會的時候，就請臺中市政府送到焚化爐去，但是豬隻太大隻焚化爐不能弄，所以我們也徵調了許多生物處理機在焚化爐旁邊，透過生物處理機處理一部分以後再進到焚化爐去，我們是用這樣的態度……"],["邱委員議瑩：臺中市願意遵守嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：臺中市願意，我們已經媒合了，所以未來會……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果是這樣……不好意思，主席再給我2分鐘的時間。剛剛關務署有特別報告，我想農業部大概也有密切掌握，其實這幾年來違規攜帶豬肉入境的案件還是層出不窮，而且這個數量都還是頗多，我們宣導、我們一直告訴大家不要攜帶豬肉入境，會造成臺灣有感染非洲豬瘟的風險，結果沒有想到藍白兩黨認為你們的媒宣預算太多，所以就聯手大砍了媒宣預算，偉大的黃國昌委員還說要砍到讓大家有感，這真的大家就有感了，非洲豬瘟進來了，防疫宣傳不夠、防疫動作不夠，真的讓大家很有感，而且這個「感」是憤怒！被他們這樣亂砍預算，導致臺灣未來有可能成為非洲豬瘟的疫區，我覺得這個是讓我們最感到憤怒的地方！","部長，最後一個我要跟您提醒，我們現在等於是在亡羊補牢、等於是在幫人家擦屁股、在處理後續的事情，但是後續的事情，包括我剛剛講的，這個病死豬的焚化處理流程，你們一定要趕快建立SOP。第二個，我們要求所有的，不管是養豬場也好、市場也好，都要做清消。這些消毒水的供應是不是也能夠請農業部來協助各地方縣市政府，趕快發送到各個養豬場或者是肉品市場，或者是屠宰場等等相關的場域？這一些消毒水的發放，甚至類似這樣的防疫補助經費，是不是也能夠請衛福部趕快盤點，然後趕快協助地方政府來做？總之，我希望雖然已經被突破了，但是後面亡羊補牢的工作、後面的圍堵，我們還是要持續加速，甚至加緊、加嚴來進行。部長，這個可以做到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，這四點中的第三點、第四點昨天已經宣布了，而且在做了，我在這邊要特別藉這個機會呼籲各地方政府，因為現在各地方政府本身的一些化製場是不允許其他縣市的豬隻進到那邊化製的，我覺得在這個時間點，除了臺中市我們單獨處理以外，其他縣市的這些正常的病死豬，希望各縣市能夠一起合作，讓豬隻能夠進到化製場，這樣才不會流落到非法的地方丟棄，我們希望大家一起努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請林岱樺委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-7","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席是不是請央行的楊總裁我們請楊總裁林委員早 總裁早我請問因為主計長在上個禮拜財委會答詢時表示AI需求持續看好今年經濟成長率應該有一點低估應該可以超過4.5%"},{"start":39.813,"end":45.319,"text":"加上中心院大幅度的上修全年的經濟成長率到達5.45%那我請問總裁對於上修經濟成長率你有什麼看法是 謝謝委員"},{"start":55.659,"end":81.539,"text":"的指教事实上呢主计处他说他要上修这个经济成长率那事实上呢我也跟委员报告最近很多机构都调升了我们台湾的经济成长率为什么呢因为在八月以后九月十月到目前为止我们的出口跟我们的投资都比预期的好"},{"start":82.179,"end":97.124,"text":"所以這就是他們要上修我們經濟成長率的主要的原因我在想我們會密切來關注因為我們在上一季的時候就在9月我們禮監事會的時候我們是估測是4.55但是從我剛剛所說的9月到10月到目前台灣的經濟的出口跟"},{"start":107.028,"end":131.749,"text":"投資都比預期的好所以我想我們12月會公布新的數據總裁我請問因為上修第四季經濟成長率和前年經濟成長率到底是原先預測失準還是明年經濟溫和成長的預測可能有正面的發展變化是不是這樣子"},{"start":133.229,"end":141.812,"text":"應該也可以這麼說基本上因為一開始的時候所有的機構包括中央銀行也是一樣的我們都認為上半年是拉貨的效應美國關稅的一個政策的一個影響拉貨效應會比較好但是後半年大家都預測說拉貨的效應會逐漸縮減但是沒有"},{"start":157.177,"end":172.231,"text":"所以这个就是说为什么所有的机构呢纷纷最近包括ATB也把我们的那个经济成长率都把它上修了那至于就是说是明年呢明年呢也大部分也都认为是在介于2.5到3%之间"},{"start":175.765,"end":198.024,"text":"這樣喔 那個總裁 按照中間院的估算內容前年的GDP年增率5%當中有4%是來自AI相關那我請問總裁 那是不是代表AI以外的國內產業很多都是衰退的 是不是確實委員說的 還有中間院說的也沒有錯"},{"start":200.646,"end":207.668,"text":"基本上就是說我們的出口主要的是電子自通訊產品它的出口非常的暢旺這個跟AI有關係"},{"start":216.971,"end":219.013,"text":"都是跟AI有關係嗎是 跟AI有關係那傳統產業幾乎都AI那個傳統產業基本上到目前為止它的成長率overall我就說傳產overall它的成長率不高低於1%以下"},{"start":238.163,"end":264.395,"text":"總裁因為上修經濟成長率會不會太弱關還是全球經濟成長有反轉的趨勢台灣更是能夠獨步全球又或者現在只是衰退現象的延後未來還是要面對衰退的一個苦果以您看呢我具有的看法就是說一般現在我們如果說再仔細看一下各個機構的一個觀察"},{"start":266.616,"end":283.577,"text":"他都認為AI的發展他可能還是會持續下去還會下去是還會持續下去總裁因為川普對等關稅可以說這個政策攪亂了全球的經濟情勢"},{"start":285.479,"end":314.483,"text":"和台灣的對等關稅政策到現在也還沒有定案那中華民國的暫時關稅條件甚至於比日本比韓國這個還要差那有媒體報導說這個台美關稅談判傳出可能是以美規的車進口零關稅那全面開放美租等等的條件達成不疊加的稅率"},{"start":315.665,"end":321.881,"text":"那總裁要達到不疊加關稅的門檻就你的了解我們有什麼有利的籌碼"},{"start":323.705,"end":345.98,"text":"我想我們有利的籌碼如果說具有了解主要的還是就是說美國還是需要我們的有關AI的一個產品問題是那個總裁因為本席當然是期盼以目前執政的民進黨絕對不能犧牲國內的產業以全民的健康來簽訂喪權辱國的談判內容因為你要進美租"},{"start":351.624,"end":358.652,"text":"然後這個用我們很多的產業外移等等來做談判的內容根據"},{"start":361.152,"end":386.067,"text":"日前副總統蕭美琴接受加拿大廣播公司的專訪時表示台灣已承諾在美國投資晶片的產業不僅是台積電還包括整個生態系那總裁原本承諾的台積電投資的籌碼看起來沒有辦法去說服美國取得較好的關稅條件那我請問"},{"start":387.188,"end":413.28,"text":"那肖户总统的台积电生态系或是郑立军副院长的台湾模式你认为能够成就两国对等互利的关税谈判筹码吗报告委员我不是这一方面的专家不过我个人我的解读我觉得"},{"start":415.225,"end":429.71,"text":"我們台灣的一個經驗包括就是說我們的科學園區的一個經驗要到美國去我覺得這個是兩國之間的一個互利我覺得是互利"},{"start":430.703,"end":446.268,"text":"對啦 那問題是你不能把我們的健康對不對你進美租過去民進黨也還美牛而且那時候我們是有條件的但是你要進美租然後一些車又零關稅等等"},{"start":447.048,"end":456.838,"text":"我認為啦你包括整個尤其AI的你包括台積電整個產業鏈都要提出去你還有什麼籌碼跟你家談幾乎沒有什麼籌碼所以說美國就制定我們日韓15%我們20%還加疊加"},{"start":466.627,"end":487.026,"text":"所以說那些產業幾乎都沒有辦法生存你包括水滸金 工具機甚至於說包括蝴蝶蘭一些腳踏車業等等那些幾乎都沒有辦法生存最近中南部那些產業幾乎所有的員工很多都無薪假"},{"start":488.206,"end":503.472,"text":"那沒有辦法生存現在有那麼多人沒有工作這是很嚴重的問題因為無薪以後會造成社會問題他有一個整個一個等於是一系列會造成這些衝擊跟影響你有什麼看法"},{"start":504.733,"end":507.135,"text":"我覺得當然委員在講的這個部分是確實會對這些產業的不利的影響不過據我了解好像我們的談判慢慢接近尾聲而且好像是會低於20%這個我看報紙的"},{"start":525.712,"end":541.689,"text":"我們也期待我們期待20%而且不要跌價因為你要讓那些產業能夠生存因為你跟韓國日本根本就沒辦法去跟人家競爭對不對都比人家高你怎麼競爭總裁明年編列AI新十大建設預算310億元11億元"},{"start":545.333,"end":572.449,"text":"那卓院長說這是未來國家發展的重中之重而8月下旬經濟部長龔明星接受聯合報專訪也說明年開始要推動AI的新時代建設希望把AI相關的技術來導入百工百業讓產業能夠升級來轉型那就本席了解產業轉型是指國家地區或產業透過系統性的調整其產業的結構將傳統"},{"start":575.111,"end":599.507,"text":"或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值的產業的過程那我請問總裁產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎既然要這個範圍要導入百工百業你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎"},{"start":600.827,"end":626.244,"text":"要接轨AI相关技术百工百业的建制成本你认为是不是都已经准备好了我跟委员报告除了资金的协助以外我想院里面还有经济部他们对于实际上怎么来协助他们我觉得他们也有做一些的安排嘴巴长很快但是要做"},{"start":628.385,"end":656.725,"text":"要做對不對食物做跟嘴巴講可能有一段距離就是說很落實的去做我想這個是很有幫助的好啦我們希望說各個行業都很興旺那當然我也希望說這些產業能夠轉型那站在政府立場不要你讓傳統產業根本就沒有生存的空間那這是我們大家的期待是是委員說的沒有錯好謝謝林德福委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時13分）謝謝主席，是不是請央行楊總裁？"],["主席：我們請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員德福：總裁早。因為主計長在上個禮拜財委會答詢時，表示AI需求持續看好，今年經濟成長率有一點低估，應該可以超過4.5%，加上中經院大幅度的上修全年經濟成長率到達5.45%。我請問總裁，對於上修經濟成長率你有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的指教。事實上，主計處要上修經濟成長率，我也跟委員報告，最近很多機構都調升了臺灣的經濟成長率，為什麼呢？因為在8月以後，9月、10月到目前為止，我們出口跟投資都比預期得好，這就是他們要上修經濟成長率的主要原因。我在想我們會密切關注，因為在上一季9月理監事會的時候，我們估測是4.55%，但誠如我剛剛所說的，從9月到10月、到目前，臺灣經濟的出口跟投資都比預期的好，所以我們12月會公布新的數據。"],["林委員德福：好，我請問總裁，因為上修第四季經濟成長率和全年經濟成長率，到底是原先預測失準，還是明年經濟溫和成長的預測可能有正面發展變化，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也可以這麼說，基本上，因為一開始的時候，所有機構包括中央銀行也是一樣，我們都認為上半年是拉貨效應，美國關稅政策的影響，拉貨效應會比較好；後半年大家都預測拉貨效應會逐漸縮減，但是卻沒有，所以這就是為什麼所有機構，包括ADB，最近紛紛也把我們的經濟成長率都上修了。至於明年，大部分也都認為是介於2.5%到3%之間。"],["林委員德福：總裁，按照中經院的估算內容，全年GDP年增率5%當中有4%是來自AI相關，請問總裁，是不是代表國內AI以外的產業很多都是衰退的？"],["楊總裁金龍：確實，委員說的還有中經院說的都沒有錯，基本上，我們的出口主要就是電子資通訊產品其出口非常暢旺，這個跟AI有關係……"],["林委員德福：多數跟AI有關係嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，跟AI有關係。"],["林委員德福：傳統產業幾乎都……"],["楊總裁金龍：傳統產業基本上到目前為止，我就只有說傳產，它的整體成長率不高，低於1%以下。"],["林委員德福：總裁，上修經濟成長率會不會太樂觀？還是全球經濟成長有反轉的趨勢，臺灣更是能夠獨步全球，又或者現在只是衰退現象的延後，未來還是要面對衰退的苦果，依你看呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我的看法，一般我們現在如果再仔細看一下各個機構的觀察，都認為AI的發展可能還是會持續下去。"],["林委員德福：還會下去？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是會持續下去。"],["林委員德福：總裁，因為川普對等關稅政策可以說攪亂了全球的經濟情勢，與臺灣的對等關稅政策到現在也還沒有定案，中華民國的暫時性關稅條件甚至於比日本、韓國還要差，有媒體報導臺美關稅談判傳出可能是以美規車進口零關稅、全面開放美豬等等條件來達成不疊加稅率，總裁，要達到不疊加關稅的門檻，就你的了解，我們有什麼有利的籌碼？"],["楊總裁金龍：有關我們有利的籌碼，如果據我了解，主要美國還是需要我們有關AI的產品。"],["林委員德福：總裁，本席當然期盼目前執政的民進黨絕對不能犧牲國內產業與全民健康來簽訂喪權辱國的談判內容，因為要進美豬，然後用我們很多的產業外移等等來做談判的內容，根據日前副總統蕭美琴接受加拿大廣播公司專訪時表示，臺灣已承諾在美國投資晶片產業，不僅是台積電，還包括整個生態系。總裁，原本承諾的台積電的投資籌碼，看起來沒有辦法說服美國取得較好的關稅條件，請問蕭副總統的台積電生態系或是鄭麗君副院長的臺灣模式，你認為能夠成就兩國對等互利的關稅談判籌碼嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，我不是這一方面的專家，不過我個人的解讀，我覺得我們臺灣的經驗，包括我們科學園區的經驗要到美國去，我覺得這是兩國之間的互利，我覺得是互利。"],["林委員德福：對啦！問題是你不能把我們的健康……對不對？你進美豬，過去民進黨也反美牛，而且那時候我們是有條件的，但是要進美豬，然後一些車又零關稅等等，我認為整個包括台積電、整個產業鏈都要提出去，你還有什麼籌碼跟人家談？幾乎沒有什麼籌碼，所以美國就吃定我們，日韓15%，我們20%還加疊加，所以那些產業幾乎都沒有辦法生存嘛！包括水五金、工具機，甚至於包括蝴蝶蘭、腳踏車業等等幾乎都沒有辦法生存，最近中南部那些產業幾乎所有員工都放無薪假，沒有辦法生存，現在有那麼多人沒有工作，這是很嚴重的問題，因為無薪以後會造成社會問題，等於是整個一系列會造成衝擊跟影響，你有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得當然委員講的部分確實會對這些產業有不利的影響，不過據我了解，好像我們的談判慢慢接近尾聲，而且好像關稅會低於20%，這個我是看報紙的啦！"],["林委員德福：我們也期待。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們期待20%，而且不要疊加。"],["林委員德福：要讓那些產業能夠生存嘛！因為跟韓國、日本根本就沒有辦法競爭啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["林委員德福：都比人家高怎麼競爭？總裁，明年編列AI新十大建設預算311億元，卓院長說這是未來國家發展的重中之重。而8月下旬經濟部長龔明鑫接受聯合報專訪也說，明年開始要推動AI新十大建設，希望把AI相關技術導入百工百業，讓產業能夠升級轉型。就本席了解，產業轉型是指國家、地區或產業透過系統性調整其產業結構，將傳統或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值產業的過程。請問總裁，產業轉型或升級是簡單用嘴巴說說的事嗎？既然要導入百工百業，你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位、促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎？要接軌AI相關技術，百工百業的建置成本你認為是不是都已經準備好了？你看呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，除了資金的協助以外，我想院裡面還有經濟部對於實際上怎麼來協助他們也有做一些安排。"],["林委員德福：用嘴巴講很快，實務做……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！但是要做。"],["林委員德福：實務做與嘴巴講可能有一段距離。"],["楊總裁金龍：就是很落實的去做，我想這是很有幫助的。"],["林委員德福：好啦！我們希望各個行業都很興旺，當然我們也希望這些產業能夠轉型，站在政府立場，不要讓傳統產業沒有生存空間，這是我們大家的期待。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員說的沒有錯，委員說得很好。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員，總裁請回。","接下來請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}