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各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀至大院的交通委員會就台鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討以及改善員工職場安全及勞動條件"},{"start":1664.091,"end":1687.078,"text":"還有就是針對全台軌道建設的進度來進行專案報告首先針對大院委員就交通議題的關切表達誠摯的感謝之意針對近期台鐵基隆站五泉站台北車站治安事件以及豎起台鐵同仁遭受攻擊等等的案件引發國人的關切"},{"start":1688.565,"end":1707.143,"text":"車站的安全維護以及員工職場安全的維護目前台鐵公司已經跟鐵路警察召開了安全聯防會議加強旅客月台以及乘車安全的維護並且加強員工維安預防以及事件處理等等的訓練"},{"start":1709.076,"end":1720.082,"text":"落實事件處理作業程序並且提供員工協助方案導入與因公社訴訟法律協助等等此外"},{"start":1721.044,"end":1745.118,"text":"持續研議員工勞動條件以及待遇福利的提升以加強第一線人員的工作保障另外就軌道運輸具有安全可靠節能減碳 運量大引導空間發展 潛力大以及產業關聯效果強等等的優勢為了建構更完善的便捷的環島鐵路網"},{"start":1747.159,"end":1776.218,"text":"依四個九十分鐘環島高效鐵路網政策的目標強化東部地區連外交通功能並且帶動區域均衡發展現在交通部將持續協助各地地方政府的捷運規劃以及推動鐵路鐵路立體化的建設工程以提升都會區軌道運輸佔有率以及縫合因為鐵路所造成的都市阻隔進而帶動TOD"},{"start":1777.2,"end":1777.624,"text":"大眾運輸導向都市發展"},{"start":1780.745,"end":1808.9,"text":"目前鐵路以及捷運設計施工中的計畫有28項規劃中的計畫有31項正審慎推動當中希望能夠使得未來的軌道運輸系統成為大眾運輸的骨幹提供國人優質的交通服務並且帶動都市以及相關產業的發展以下請台鐵公司鄭董事長光遠以及鐵道局"},{"start":1809.82,"end":1824.268,"text":"楊局長 鄭軍分別就台鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討以及改善員工職場安全及勞動條件還有就是全台軌道建設的進度等等的議題來進行詳細的報告"},{"start":1832.435,"end":1838.903,"text":"好 接下來再請交通部鐵道局我們先請楊振軍局長報告好不好 謝謝謝謝鄭董事長 積極認識來"},{"start":1851.099,"end":1874.876,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早安那今天非常感謝早委安排全台軌道建設進度的這樣的一個專案報告可以聆聽各位委員的指教 請表非常感謝之意那鐵路及捷運建設計畫一向為各個地方積極爭取的這樣的一個公共建設那因為不只帶來交通運輸上的效益 也對於都市發展"},{"start":1875.516,"end":1898.319,"text":"還有我們相關的經濟帶動呈現相當的效果那以下請就相關的軌道建設的情況跟各位委員做報告那分就兩個部分第一個部分是鐵路路網基礎建設那先講高鐵計畫高鐵的部分包括宜蘭跟屏東的綜合規劃作業宜蘭高鐵的案子在今年八月二十號已經通過環評"},{"start":1899.56,"end":1914.718,"text":"第二階段的審查 現在鐵調局正積極整理最後的綜合公約報告 希望爭取在第四季承包行政院來做審議的動作那高鐵延伸屏東岸在今年五月二十二號 奉行政院核定改採高雄方案進行中規作業"},{"start":1915.839,"end":1935.241,"text":"已經在今年的八月一號啟動環境影響評估的相關作業第二個部分報告台鐵入網的興建以及改善這部分全部都是由鐵道局來辦理目前辦理中的計畫總共有五項其中包括兩項設計施工中一項中規兩項可行性研究設計施工中的案子主要是"},{"start":1936.587,"end":1960.042,"text":"跨東地區鐵路雙軌化計畫那這個案子目前正在辦理第一次的修正計畫當中修正的總經費是六百九十一億元修正期程未來將採三階段通車第一階段一百一十六年十二月台東到資本第二階段一百一十八年十二月第三階段一百一十九年十二月就其他的路段來旅行通車目前修正計畫正在行政院審議當中"},{"start":1961.383,"end":1980.538,"text":"第二個案子是高鐵彰化站到台鐵轉乘接駁計畫 也就是通稱的田中支線計畫 這個案子是由台鐵公司組織的計畫 由鐵道局來代辦施工 全長3.14公里新設新田中車站在高鐵彰化的這個站區裡面 可以串聯未來的高鐵 串聯"},{"start":1981.539,"end":2009.97,"text":"高鐵彰化站跟台鐵田中車站那目前正在辦理第一次修正計畫修正經費是72億元 修正期程是120年12月通車綜合規劃中的案件 海線鐵路雙軌化 目前辦理環境影響及綜合規劃的作業當中可行性研究包括兩個案子 南輝鐵路線型改善跟平井路段的雙軌化 鐵道局已經按照行政院的審查意見修正報告在今年10月再次呈報行政院審議當中"},{"start":2012.093,"end":2025.266,"text":"平南觀光鐵道目前是由鐵道局辦理可行性研究那預計在下個月可以提報交通部做這個可行性研究期末報告的這樣的一個審查第三個部分報告鐵路立體化的相關計畫這個這種"},{"start":2027.788,"end":2044.474,"text":"鐵路地下化計畫目前大概有14項在設計施工中的案件包括桃園鐵路地下化計畫全長19.75公里那將現有的三座車站地下化並增設五座通行車站總經費1047億元第一次修正計畫將修正到1817億元期程修正到1122年1月第一階段通車"},{"start":2050.356,"end":2075.267,"text":"一百二十三年九月第二階段通車那同時配合平正端的南延延長一點二公里長度調整到十九點一五公里目前也由行政院在做修正計畫最後的審議當中第二個計畫是平正臨時站這個是在逃避通車之前新增設的通行車站預計在明年的十月可以完工通車第三個計畫是嘉義市區鐵路地下化計畫"},{"start":2077.289,"end":2091.208,"text":"這個計畫目前所有的標案都已經完成發包 都在全力施工當中也在排除相關的文資議題預計118年12月通車第四個計畫是嘉義縣市鐵路高架化延伸計畫也就是俗稱的民雄計畫"},{"start":2092.169,"end":2107.077,"text":"那這個計畫我們在今年度完成了臨時軌工程的發包在五月份已經開始做相關的工程施工動作我們的永久軌工作預期在年底之前可以完成發包本計畫預計在一百二十年第一階段通車"},{"start":2108.786,"end":2137.223,"text":"第五個計畫是台南市區鐵路地下化計畫這個計畫在去年8月完全排除東門路橋下面的文資保存的這樣的一個議題 全力展開所有的工程進度 在昨天已經將整個隧道段的結構工程完全貫通 接附交續這個鋪軌的這樣的一個動作 我們目前全力以民國以明年底為第一階段通車的這樣的一個目標來全力爭取 全力努力當中"},{"start":2138.243,"end":2154.454,"text":"第六個計畫是高雄鐵路地下化那這個計畫到今年底到今年年中我們已經就原來的工作項目全數完成那後續正在辦理修正總經會不變希望把期程延長來增加延伸一些所謂地下連通道的這樣的一個工程"},{"start":2155.194,"end":2182.478,"text":"第二個部分報告綜合規劃中的相關案件宜蘭鐵路高架這個案子在十月九號交通部已經召開過審查委員會原則通過那鐵道局正在整理最後的中規報告修正預計在十月底也就是這兩天之內可以呈報部裡面來轉成行政院做審議彰化鐵路高架案目前還在辦理綜合規劃當中今年七月啟動環境影響評估作業"},{"start":2183.279,"end":2192.4,"text":"新竹大平台 目前新竹市政府並沒有提送進一步的報告到部裡面台南永康地下化這個案子是行政院"},{"start":2193.737,"end":2216.915,"text":"九月十六號核定可能性研究那鐵道局正在辦理綜合規劃的招標準備作業當中預計在明年第一季可以把中規的這個顧問案完成決標第三個部分報告可言中的案件第一個是大台中三線海線的高架化那這個案子分三線海線兩個案子 城報行政院那目前仍由台中市政府"},{"start":2217.475,"end":2236.786,"text":"跟這個提出最新的修正報告交通部在做最後的審查當中那甲後線的部分呢 則是鐵道局函請台中市政府來延期這個路線呢就地方鐵路的營運的相關的模式跟全責機關當中第二個案子是斗六鐵路高架化的案子那鐵道局定於十一月二十號"},{"start":2237.446,"end":2266.926,"text":"召開研商的會議 邀請台鐵公司跟雲林縣政府就包括路橋的拆除 還有台鐵設施的遷建等等的進一步的議題來做研商以協助這個計畫的進一步的推展第三個案子是新式鐵路立體化那鐵造局定於11月14號辦理現刊 現刊之後整理相關意見 再召開所謂的初審會議吉安鐵路高架 花蓮縣政府在9月10號已經提送可能性研究到部"},{"start":2267.506,"end":2283.091,"text":"那布裡面也交給鐵道局在辦理審查當中那其他地方政府研擬中尚未提送的可能性研究包括水上散化仁德新營以及橋頭等五個鐵路地理化的計畫這個這些案子都還在地方政府的相關研究"},{"start":2283.951,"end":2308.174,"text":"第四個部分報告都會區的這個捷運建設計畫首先說北北基的部分 北北基總共有十三個案件其中八項在設計施工當中 兩項中規 三項可行性研究設計施工中的機種捷運目前工程經費審議在交通部跟鐵道局的這個程序當中信義縣東延第四次修正計畫交通部審查中萬大綜合樹林縣第一期"},{"start":2308.815,"end":2333.552,"text":"三休計畫 目前也是在鐵道局跟交通部相關的程序審查當中第二期的一休計畫行政院已經在前幾天也就是10月21號核定環狀線北環跟南環修正計畫行政院11月20 去年11月27號已經核定環狀線的東環段修正計畫目前由市政府修正相關的報告報告當中"},{"start":2335.839,"end":2356,"text":"三陰縣新北市政府提送第二次修正計畫 交通部已經含附相關的審查意見市政府修正相關的報告當中 淡海輕軌二期那這個是就第二期入網第一次的這個修正計畫那目前由新北市政府修正他的這個修正計畫報告當中 西中捷運案"},{"start":2356.841,"end":2374.806,"text":"西東捷運新北市政府提出第一次修正計畫那目前是要修正經費到621億元目前由鐵道局來進行審查當中中規中的作業有兩岸明細縣 明細縣目前新北市政府提出來的報告由鐵道局在進行審查作業當中"},{"start":2375.786,"end":2393.839,"text":"五太案 五太輕軌 新北市政府刻意我們十月二號的初審會議已經進入初審會議那就初審會議的相關意見包括經營比高速公路的閘道落墩還有經費增加的幅度等等這些議題由新北市政府修正報告再送回來之後我們再繼續 繼續後續的審查"},{"start":2396.141,"end":2416.218,"text":"可行性研究當中的案件有三件包括巴黎輕軌目前是新北市政府在十月十六號修正後提送報告那由本部在進行審查太阪輕軌新北市政府在十月十三號提送修正後的報告目前鐵道局正在審視他報告的相關內容那再提供給相關機關來做後續的審查"},{"start":2417.859,"end":2443.574,"text":"深坑輕軌那新北市城我人在修正後續的報告當中第二個部分是報告桃園的部分桃園的部分總共有7項計畫其中6項已經是在設計施工中的案件一項可靈性研究設計施工中的包括機場捷運有兩岸延伸中立這是由鐵道局辦理那目前的期程是到118年那機場捷運S4站 S4站是在T3航廈"},{"start":2444.494,"end":2466.677,"text":"的這個配合T3航廈啟用的一個增設的車站那目前已經排除這個原來的這個地下積水的問題全力施展相關的工程當中我們以配合T3航廈的啟用116年年底為通車啟用的這樣的一個目標在做努力綠線的部分呢桃園市政府提出修正計畫現在有鐵道局審查當中"},{"start":2468.461,"end":2482.983,"text":"綠線延伸中綠 那目前是由桃園市政府辦理設計作業中線也是由桃園市政府辦理設計作業 山陰延伸八德是8月1號行政院核定桃園市政府辦理設計作業當中 可行經研究綠線延伸大溪"},{"start":2484.482,"end":2507.475,"text":"桃園市政府刻意交通部112年2月的審查委員會的意見在修正相關的報告新竹輕軌目前交通部也就是鐵道局已經整合了新竹市跟新竹縣的紅線跟藍線那最終的這個共識是由新竹市政府來擔任主責機關提報計畫那他們目前正在辦理兩個案子的整合作業"},{"start":2509.042,"end":2528.964,"text":"那後續是他們提出來報告之後我們會再給予審查上的協助 第四個部分報告台中都會區的捷運 台中都會區捷運總共有五項計畫 一項設計當中 一項中規 三項可行性研究 藍線已經進入設計那核心系統的部分已經完成發包 目前其他部分在做設計施工當中"},{"start":2529.525,"end":2542.623,"text":"那中規的案件是綠線延伸 也就是北段延伸大坑南段延伸彰化的這個案子 目前由臺灣市政府辦理中規的報告當中尚未提送 可行性研究藍線延伸橘線屯區環狀線那其中"},{"start":2545.166,"end":2570.132,"text":"南線延伸跟局線的部分都已經提報交通部那我們已經轉成行政院辦理促參的相關審查 屯區環狀線則由臺中市政府修正相關的報告當中嘉義捷運 台中市嘉義市執行中聯計畫共一項 辦理可能性研究中那其中是南線的部分交通部在今年一月有含附審查意見 現在是嘉義市政府辦理修正"},{"start":2571.65,"end":2587.487,"text":"台中 台南都會區捷運總共有五項計畫一項設計 四項可能性研究當中 第一期藍線的部分行政院在十月二十一號也就是一個禮拜前核定中規報告 目前由市政府辦理後續的設計作業以及後續的發包作業"},{"start":2588.368,"end":2606.194,"text":"那可行性研究包括藍線延伸 綠線 紅線 深綠線其中這個深綠線的部分是由鐵道局在進行審查其他的三個路線都能由台南市政府在進行報告的修正或者是尚未提送的這樣的一個狀態那高屏都會區的捷運"},{"start":2607.234,"end":2635.548,"text":"總共有六項 設計施工中的岡山路竹延伸線黃線小港林園線環狀輕軌等等其中有涉及到修正計畫的部分都已經獲行這面核定環狀輕軌的部分還帶這個後續的審查這個部分的修正計畫還沒有核定那可行性研究中的案子是子線那這個部分這個今年八月高雄市政府有提送修正後的報告我們已經在昨天召開初審會議"},{"start":2636.869,"end":2652.501,"text":"那請高雄市政府後續修正之後再進行後續的審查程序林源東港林邊縣這個是由屏東縣政府主辦的案件那我們在十月二十二號有召開議題的演唱會主要是這個案子有行經實話的"},{"start":2653.922,"end":2675.067,"text":"這樣的一個園區所以有相關的安全議題的討論那後續由屏東縣政府辦理修正其他各地方政府研擬中尚未提送的可能性研究計畫包括西洋捷運二階段桃園清縣 桃園菊縣台中崇德豐原縣彰化鹿港縣台南黃縣高雄延伸前鎮漁港等七項計畫"},{"start":2677.293,"end":2692.299,"text":"節雨 軌道運輸確實具有快速大量變節特別是在低碳排放還有促進都市跟區域發展等的相關優勢但是由於他的建設經費較高所需要的期程也相對比較長所以需要審慎的評估"},{"start":2693.82,"end":2711.315,"text":"那鐵道局後續會在交通部跟行政院的指導底下持續來推動中央級地方的各項軌道建設啟示軌道系統成為大眾運輸的主幹提供民眾優質的交通運輸服務之外同時帶動都市以及相關產業的發展 以上報告請請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝楊局長那接下來再請台鐵公司鄭光源董事長報告"},{"start":2732.699,"end":2756.898,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天應邀到貴委員會就台鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討改善員工職場安全及勞動條件等三大項進行報告請說明如後 敬請各位委員指教首先報告的是"},{"start":2757.699,"end":2784.447,"text":"旅客安全措施方面在旅車站的公共安全方面我們已經加強保全與這個鐵井的巡邏建立鐵井保全跟車站三層聯訪的機制每30分鐘來巡查一次特別針對車站裡面的廁所大廳月台等重點區域加強所望"},{"start":2785.307,"end":2804.964,"text":"同時我們也成立了關懷小組就是主動的協助有異常行為或者需要幫助的旅客並且與地方社會局來合作協助安置無家者在月台後車安全方面我們在月台上"},{"start":2806.605,"end":2834.542,"text":"畫色黃色的警戒線設置列車進站的警示燈並透過廣播人員的引導保全或者志工那麼以吹哨或者口頭提醒的方式來提醒旅客來注意月台上的安全此外在車站跟列車上也持續透過我們的這個跑馬燈的宣導"},{"start":2835.763,"end":2847.234,"text":"安全後車的各項注意事項在乘車安全方面車廂內設有安全警語以及緊急按鈕通報系統"},{"start":2848.427,"end":2865.905,"text":"旅客上下車的時候也有語音的提醒注意車廂跟月台間的間隙同時我們嚴格禁止危險物品上車並與鐵警局合作進行跨峽護車的勤務"},{"start":2868.462,"end":2890.65,"text":"那在防患行動電源自然方面我們除了加強宣導使用合格的產品外也已完成了滅火疏散演練來提升我們現場人員的應變能力接下來要跟各位委員報告的是員工職場安全在維護"},{"start":2894.344,"end":2921.461,"text":"列車安全方面 我們已經以鐵警局協調提高見警率 加強跨峽護車的資源同時也針對車長辦理危機處理及防衛技巧等回訊的課程同時我們也透過海報 官網及社群平台加強防暴跟安全的宣導"},{"start":2922.722,"end":2944.497,"text":"在維護戰區的安全方面公司已經辦理維安教育的訓練加強監視設備並且導入員工協助方案法律的資源及實災輔導機制另外我們也透過成立LINE群組讓車站"},{"start":2946.857,"end":2962.946,"text":"以地方警力能夠及時通報快速來反應確保在第一時間能夠掌握狀況最後要跟各位委員報告的是在員工福利以勞動條件"},{"start":2964.881,"end":2989.874,"text":"在提升待遇方面台鐵公司自114年起我們調薪3%並且持續發放流財津貼同時我們也針對搶修獎金危險加急與輸印獎勵等項目進行調整讓付出的努力能夠獲得合理的回饋"},{"start":2994.246,"end":3022.798,"text":"另外 夜點費主管加急的調升方案已經董事會審議通過目前正照依照法定的程序來呈合中在福利優化方面員工可以持識別證可以不站位的搭乘各級列車同時也提供員工跟眷屬"},{"start":3024.464,"end":3046.624,"text":"彈性購票優惠在營造友善職場方面我們推動彈性工時的制度以優於勞基法的規定的價別制度讓員工能夠兼顧工作與生活提供旅客安全"},{"start":3047.934,"end":3070.619,"text":"來乘車安心的乘車的體驗以保障員工的工作安全一直是我們台鐵公司努力的目標未來我們將持續精進各項作為以提升整體的服務品質與職場環境以上報告敬請各位會委員會議指導謝謝"},{"start":3079.633,"end":3103.749,"text":"好 謝謝鄭董事長好 接下來開始進行詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止三 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點鐘前提出以便議事人員會診四 暫定10點30分休息5分鐘"},{"start":3110.117,"end":3125.565,"text":"我們現在請登記第一位廖先祥委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請"},{"start":3136.276,"end":3162.541,"text":"部長早安 這個我們全臺灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先"},{"start":3163.301,"end":3176.492,"text":"確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億"},{"start":3182.612,"end":3199.944,"text":"就是明年啦 就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦 他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億"},{"start":3201.005,"end":3220.399,"text":"所以就是399大概400億然後就合100億那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的工進來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為"},{"start":3221.42,"end":3248.418,"text":"他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億"},{"start":3249.478,"end":3277.475,"text":"理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢"},{"start":3278.596,"end":3282.809,"text":"如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億"},{"start":3284.212,"end":3311.335,"text":"那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們"},{"start":3313.09,"end":3337.998,"text":"預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少"},{"start":3338.974,"end":3366.71,"text":"我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎"},{"start":3369.232,"end":3389.641,"text":"你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛"},{"start":3392.682,"end":3420.63,"text":"好那好沒關係這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減我願有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計劃那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計劃嗎"},{"start":3423.255,"end":3440.424,"text":"應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度"},{"start":3442.685,"end":3466.717,"text":"但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是他是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了然後地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在"},{"start":3467.137,"end":3487.011,"text":"浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能就會"},{"start":3487.892,"end":3509.822,"text":"不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對反正你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候"},{"start":3510.922,"end":3533.82,"text":"而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那對地方政府是一個比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少"},{"start":3534.79,"end":3558.591,"text":"是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項減對 應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了2200億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對 我們報2200我們報2200的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是1100大概只有一半"},{"start":3558.951,"end":3571.462,"text":"所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的"},{"start":3574.38,"end":3593.294,"text":"我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼那個跟委員報告我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多"},{"start":3594.675,"end":3616.192,"text":"有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有"},{"start":3616.812,"end":3643.642,"text":"依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個"},{"start":3645.683,"end":3658.367,"text":"為了平行前程或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊 之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛交通部目前是 法制作業當中現在法制作業 這個確定會這麼做確定會改 讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛只是說沒關係決議歸決議啦那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是"},{"start":3670.831,"end":3691.743,"text":"我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到"},{"start":3693.17,"end":3719.142,"text":"行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光現在已經這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月嘛預告還有兩個月但是定案了啦已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程義的那個程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光的形塑不容易那現在已經"},{"start":3719.662,"end":3742.033,"text":"沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好 拜託我們同仁好 謝謝好 沒問題 謝謝委員"},{"start":3765.049,"end":3774.779,"text":"好 我們繼續請洪孟愷召委發言好 麻煩請陳士凱部長 然後鄭董事長跟楊局長"},{"start":3784.108,"end":3804.971,"text":"部長好部長我想今天主要兩個議題第一個議題就是所謂這個台鐵各地車站的旅客安全的一個檢討的部分那我看到報告其實開宗明義雖然講是講各地車站旅客安全但實際上還是focus在台北車站當然台北車站的運量是最大而且日前才發生一個這個所謂的這個"},{"start":3805.652,"end":3830.591,"text":"社會事件也因此我們台北車站當然重要可是全台的車站也一樣重要我想這部長你也同意我想先請教一下在台鐵車站裡面不管是現在要建立所謂的鐵警保全車站三層通報機制但是各主要車站也擬辦理換言之除了台北車站以外其他車站特等站 一等站有所謂的保全嗎是不是請董事長好"},{"start":3835.648,"end":3850.007,"text":"這個跟委員報告目前我們有保全的地方就是除了台北車站以外還有我們那個高雄車站還有另外就是我們有兩個比較小的車站是歸來跟寧若這兩個"},{"start":3853.271,"end":3874.388,"text":"那歸來跟寧若呢它最因為是無人車站那我們是在下午的時候那麼申請這個保全兩個車站合請一個保全幫忙在巡邏全台灣有多少車站我們242個車站242個車站你現在告訴我只有台北車站跟高雄車站兩個地方有保全是的那其他地方"},{"start":3875.389,"end":3888.998,"text":"你說要建立一個鐵井保全車站三層通報巡檢制度但實際上其他車站是沒有保全的我跟委員報告了列車上有沒有保全列車上目前沒有也沒有保全我們是用鐵井在巡邏"},{"start":3893.101,"end":3914.558,"text":"本席有看到說公司從過去一直我們也強調是說台鐵一直發生所謂的旅客攻擊事件旅客攻擊員工事件也因此除了說這一些閉路器等等相關然後提高見景率其實很重要的是如果說有保全能力的話未來有這樣發生的一個治安狀況可以第一時間馬上請保全來去排除"},{"start":3915.819,"end":3938.935,"text":"那半年過去有任何進度嗎台鐵公司有要求說各車站要自行提報需求但是如果說沒有一個通盤的安全需求政策的話那各車站提報了之後然後呢又放著今天是台北車站發生了治安問題大家很重視那如果說改天有任何一個車站發生治安問題的話我們又要再檢討一遍嘛"},{"start":3939.895,"end":3954.37,"text":"跟委員報告是這樣我們針對這個旅客比較眾多的這個大的站譬如說我們台北還有高雄跟台中那這個部分我們有深入的去了解"},{"start":3954.912,"end":3978.706,"text":"那目前我們看來比較有需要的就是台北站我們現在是先這樣做那台北站我們是用這種所謂的聯訪的方式在運作那我們是認為說這個運作起來到目前的情況相當的不錯那如果說未來其他的站有這樣的一個需要的話我們會再考慮到這樣那因為這也考慮到我們的一些人員的成本的問題董事長"},{"start":3979.586,"end":4001.414,"text":"當然人員成本問題 現在請榮許本席提醒今年初是不是我們針對台北站也把所謂的台北捷運的部分的保全也給拆撤掉捷運啊對 就捷運那一個車站那部分就台北站其實在今年我們也收到有這個工會這邊反映就是說針對"},{"start":4002.594,"end":4024.925,"text":"台北車站的部分保全也有縮減人力捷運應該是屬於北捷那邊會去處理我說往捷運那個方向的啦沒有我們你的那個保全的車站保全的人力也有調整啊也有減少啊月台上的月台上的這個保全人力也有減少不是嗎沒有耶"},{"start":4027.256,"end":4028.938,"text":"當然是當時因為臨時去支援的那現在後來不需要的話我們再撤回"},{"start":4041.233,"end":4063.734,"text":"我跟委員報告 兩個方面一方面是您剛剛所關心的這個議題人力的調整他們已經補回去了原本可能是把他調去別的地方那現在已經補回來這第一點那第二點台鐵公司他的車站大部分都是跟鐵路警察來合作來維持這個治安那鐵路警察他的覆蓋率其實就蠻廣大概有多少車站你們曉得嗎"},{"start":4065.407,"end":4090.322,"text":"副總校長他的覆蓋率其實是蠻多的因為今天內政部鐵路警察沒有過來但是如果說你要問鐵路警察的話鐵路警察一定會跟你講說他的人員吃緊對啦他們也希望所以現在羊毛出在羊身上我認為還是一樣就是說過去大家認為是台鐵的安全能夠有在提升台鐵的服務品質有在提升其實很重要一個部分就是各失其職嘛"},{"start":4091.007,"end":4117.506,"text":"就是說不要說讓發生什麼樣的安全問題的時候第一時間是由列車長是由員工這邊來做處理也因此如果說有安全疑慮的部分保全能夠替代當然可以請保全來做處理那之前我也提過就是說你除了台北站高雄站以外其他的車站那以及台北站到目前為止保全能力是否足夠這一點其實我相信台鐵的員工也都會有很多的意見"},{"start":4119.249,"end":4143.972,"text":"董事長是不是針對這部分再來去做一個了解或說能夠再去做一個檢視的部分該增加其實我們還是一樣強調你後面我本席最近也看到光台北車站上面近期又要再招標新的商業這個商場要再招標嘛而且你講是說創新高過去這幾年商場的營運模式營業額收入非常的高"},{"start":4144.632,"end":4156.662,"text":"那總不能說只一味的都是由商場賺錢但是對於我們最基本的服務項目的部分沒有辦法有一個提升嗎對於委員的這個提醒我們再來研究看看是不是有精進的空間"},{"start":4157.796,"end":4175.58,"text":"好那另外我再請教一下夜點費剛剛報告事項裡面已經提到了董事會已經審議通過了是的那現在卡在哪邊現在就是我們按照程序就是說我們要在第一個報交通部嘛交通部的這個來那部長請教一下有沒有收到台鐵的這一個"},{"start":4178.027,"end":4193.646,"text":"我們是剛剛昨天因為我們的程序就是說董事會的董事會的議事錄要經過確認我們為了加速我們確認的同時我們就支會交通部來提升所以應該交通部現在在"},{"start":4194.247,"end":4211.056,"text":"我們會用最快的速度來核備這件事情所以會支持嗎當時我其實有跟董事長討論過這個案子那我們也是非常的支持那也感謝台鐵公司的董事會有通過這個案子確實因為畢竟現在的夜點費台鐵是只有120元但對比一般的大眾運輸"},{"start":4212.757,"end":4236.046,"text":"包括說高鐵是475元包括說捷運450元所以我們現在也沒有比高鐵也沒有比捷運多我們提高到最高的話我們可以到400元是400元所以說如果是這樣的話該合理的補貼應該有補貼部長你可以同意這個支持完全支持好那我們就看預計什麼時候最快可以發送"},{"start":4237.308,"end":4264.88,"text":"我們希望說明年的1月1號這個夜點費我們可以來發放好最後來請教一下楊局長楊局長本期有看到你這全台軌道建設這也是為什麼我特別邀請鐵道局這邊來做一個整理就是我相信很多的民意代表在各縣市也都有軌道建設來進行也因此我們希望說鐵道局能夠有一個通盤的一個規劃跟掌握那其中有一個部分就是本期"},{"start":4266.14,"end":4294.137,"text":"選區裡面有很多條軌道建設但其中有一條已經被退了11次了審查 被審查了11次2020年7月就已經送進來4年9個月了你知道是哪一條嗎太阪輕軌嘛11次啊在高度菜都差太多了吧巴黎嗎巴黎是不是巴黎巴黎輕軌巴黎輕軌淡海輕軌二期淡海輕軌 抱歉抱歉"},{"start":4296.539,"end":4320.845,"text":"2020年9月那時候太阪輕軌還不知道在哪裡那時候武泰輕軌才做可行性評估巴黎輕軌現在也還在可行性評估中但是淡海輕軌二期尤其部長在這邊每一次去那邊都會看到我們淡江大橋但是跟淡江大橋相輝映並且完善整個淡水的交通三支鍵淡北道路現在已經在做了淡江大橋明年5月可以通車"},{"start":4321.666,"end":4331.004,"text":"但海清鬼二旗把它完善最后一里路只有六个暂停但是到目前为止送神了11次还没有过"},{"start":4332.406,"end":4361.123,"text":"局長 能不能再加油一下問題在哪邊因為之前就是靠近河岸的這個預留的這個道路的寬度是7公尺那因為地方有相關的反應認為說這個7公尺對他們的商家營運來說是造成地方之前就已經討論過而且也有討論這樣的議題我看到新北市捷運局也一家一家商家的來去做溝通跟說明"},{"start":4361.863,"end":4364.877,"text":"那到目前為止能夠退縮也退縮是"},{"start":4365.612,"end":4394.579,"text":"他們有再次調整到九點五公尺 是 那這個案子最近有送進來我想我們會來做後續的協助 最近送進來也是七月的事情對 跟委員報告 所以已經又過了三個月 因為他們前面其實這些那十幾次大部分都是因為地方還有意見還有一些陳情的意見所以大家一直在在討論當中那現在終於新北市政府有新的案子了退縮九點五公尺的部分已經做調整我想地方的陳情應該就會少 那後續的部分我們就來加速 好"},{"start":4395.359,"end":4410.545,"text":"所以真的是要拜託部長我今天特別點出來就是我們不要真的不要再拖了也不要再拖我真的很怕是到最後你會變成是明年五月的時候淡江大橋通車的時候才一起來能快不要慢"},{"start":4411.425,"end":4435.05,"text":"真的地方沒有辦法這樣子持續拖尤其是現在淡江大橋我們也看到快落成快通車淡北道路在進行中結果應該是要後發先至的淡海輕軌淡海輕軌一起南海線綠三線其實也都已經在運行了但是就差最後一路六個站體把它完善變成是一個circle就可以發揮大眾運輸最大的運量化"},{"start":4437.355,"end":4459.104,"text":"能夠請局長這邊現在這個這個案子在哪裡鐵道局還是交通部我們是有沒有沒有我們最近有收到新北市政府送進來的東西我們在做簽報當中是那請也讓北齊知道一下進度剛剛部長已經講能快就不要慢而且是已經在設計階段了最後一里路了好不好謝謝"},{"start":4475.626,"end":4478.927,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來再請第三位林國成委員質詢"},{"start":4492.523,"end":4519.234,"text":"好謝謝昭偉請我們交通部陳部長陳部長請台鐵公司鄭董事長來鄭董事長請委員好來部長董事長我想本席像在交通委員會我任何事情是對事不對人但是"},{"start":4520.259,"end":4538.319,"text":"我們在台鐵公司改革的過程當中絕對不能走回頭路部長你同意嗎非常同意董事長你同意嗎同意好微裁適用是基本的觀念"},{"start":4539.808,"end":4555.235,"text":"適材適用也是改革的一部分但是如果變成我們台鐵的人士是酬庸式的我跟你講 董事長改革就沒有進步我今天會執行"},{"start":4556.966,"end":4579.666,"text":"是因為我手頭檢舉的案件一大堆因為我一向支持部長為什麼 年輕人對於交通業務的改革我都只有贊成跟支持的態度那私底下董事長我也贊同你把台鐵能夠慢慢改 改成像"},{"start":4580.834,"end":4604.074,"text":"高鐵這樣那種水準層次雖然我們票價低但是整個改革過程當中是有必要的所以一開始我也是非常支持可是我就感覺到很奇怪現在我們的人事啊是在紛張是不是是在酬庸是不是所以我對事不對人"},{"start":4605.891,"end":4625.86,"text":"所以我要請教董事長還有我們部長請問我們台鐵董那個董監事通過的處長以上要不要部長何備要不要處長以上不用啊就是副總以上吧或者董"},{"start":4629.511,"end":4645.67,"text":"只有到副总好副总好那这个事情当然跟部长但是部长你要去了解是我一向纸张我反对政治分张我要请教一下来下一张那个好不对好"},{"start":4646.758,"end":4655.146,"text":"我要提供給部長你看看中油公司 台電公司 台水公司或台灣高鐵 中國郵政中華郵政等等這些的財務人員都既有專長"},{"start":4662.895,"end":4690.757,"text":"可是我們台鐵我們的資產初步有八千億塊一兆以上那我們的編列預算也幾百億我請問一下我們現在回來再回來好我要請教你現在的管財務的財務處長黃偉霖先生他是不是財務的專業"},{"start":4695.987,"end":4696.149,"text":"我跟"},{"start":4698.077,"end":4726.692,"text":"報告那個專委他現在是公司裡面是專門委員那現在我來了以後我是特別請他當我的秘書室的這個秘書也是特別助理那在公司裡面他是有兼任他負責的專委他督導的單位就是主要公共事務方面因為我們借重他跟媒體溝通的這個能力那同時因為公司在這個"},{"start":4727.432,"end":4731.426,"text":"好了 董事長我知道我也不要打斷你但是我問你"},{"start":4733.303,"end":4759.556,"text":"專業的問題嘛他現在就是兼任財務處長嘛對不對他就是用媒體公關用特殊情形而進來的嘛誰推薦的我也不要講但是我可以保證他是有關係所以我才訂政治分贓嘛所以你對他也不敢嘛但是你不要忘囉這裡面員工啊指正立立"},{"start":4761.239,"end":4768.485,"text":"檢舉的東西 他今天是為了公司好主管財務的處長 竟然不懂財務"},{"start":4770.882,"end":4794.402,"text":"我常講過一句話不會做事無所謂但是要會做人不要一味的覺得我有關係你拿我沒辦法這是基層員工你要改革過程當中要先安內再攘外嘛你裡面的員工對這些都不服氣請問董事長你怎麼改革請問部長這怎麼可以去發揮他們的功能"},{"start":4798.145,"end":4825.564,"text":"報告委員幾個部分第一台鐵公司他公司化就是說希望能夠引進非過去所謂公務體系上來的那一種人才所以現在很多的從業人員台鐵公司也有經過董事會去同意到專委可以直接請社會上面的專業的人員進來我同意有走正常的程序進來我覺得這個部分就沒什麼問題部長第二個部分是說他現在這位專委"},{"start":4826.365,"end":4852.074,"text":"他雖然是兼任董事長的秘書那同時也是專門委員應該有兼財務處長但是他是督導但是他的薪水也沒有增加他是一份薪水但是做很多的工作大概是這個狀況對啦 他就是能力很強嘛但是專業不足嘛我同意嘛他是依照公關媒體"},{"start":4853.794,"end":4863.88,"text":"進來的嘛這個就是我們不對題進來你去做公關你要做公關處長你要去做媒體處長我都贊成嘛因為他進來的專業是這樣可是現在門外漢管我們台鐵的財務請問一下 員工都不服氣嘛問題在這裡嘛 怎麼改革"},{"start":4874.907,"end":4899.302,"text":"他專門委員主要的重點就是在督導公關媒體這一塊可是他就是董事長你如果要這樣講我會繼續追下去喔我已經講過我對事不對人人怎麼樣產生當然你們是依法可是我可以跟你講這裡面的辦法我看得很清楚他是用媒體公關的特殊人員進來他怎麼會來管財務呢"},{"start":4903.643,"end":4926.651,"text":"委員跟委員報告現在台鐵剛剛公司化有些單位是過去沒有的例如說您所關心的財務處過去沒有財務處這樣子的單位那現在新成立所以台鐵公司也需要漸漸的補齊這方面的人才 過去台鐵公司並沒有財務方面的人才 以前還是有財務單位啦我跟你講你不要讓我 有會計處不是財務處是 那還不是一樣"},{"start":4930.032,"end":4930.332,"text":"我跟您講啦"},{"start":4953.254,"end":4960.199,"text":"我不是對黃偉軍先生有意見我是對體制有意見本來就是這樣嘛我對他進來台鐵我沒有意見"},{"start":4966.877,"end":4995.494,"text":"那個黃偉晶先生也在嘛你聽著我對你沒有意見但是對制度有意見為什麼因為你台鐵要改革怎麼會放不對的人在管不對的事情那當然就委員的指教我們趕快找專業的人才進來財務處未來整個財務處都盡量是財務專業我跟你講董事長你下情不能上打我跟你講所有員工所有職工為了這些事情"},{"start":4996.547,"end":5011.914,"text":"都非常非常對領導階層對台鐵非常不滿為什麼那如果有關係就沒有關係那以後大家都靠關係啊說實在那這樣的話台鐵就沒有辦法改革"},{"start":5012.774,"end":5041.59,"text":"我同意任何人去推薦人才進來但是要擺對的位置這才是一個專業才是一個改革我同意所有有專業的都來投入台鐵但是不能因人而異如果是這樣就是政治紛張那如果是這樣台鐵又是酬庸永遠一輩子沒有辦法去改革這一點我給董事長特別一個建議我也希望部長"},{"start":5042.21,"end":5066.091,"text":"要去注意這些 最後我要跟主席借一分鐘來 接下來董事長 來我知道我們這個是委辦的我們那個海峰號我也去看過了海峰號本來外表給人家看起來是很不錯的可是"},{"start":5067.165,"end":5079.387,"text":"董事長為什麼這種高級烤爐再封抹布這個事來你看一下這是人家造出來的這也是員工提出來的"},{"start":5080.168,"end":5109.007,"text":"報告委員 這個確實是不應該啦我們已經要求這個承商要馬上改進不是 我也知道這個是承商但是這個就是我們管理階層鬆動我跟你講他包我們的東西我們也要監督啊欸 食安有問題這不是開玩笑的欸票是我們賣的但是是我們委外但是你委外給我對食安的問題當兒戲欸 是砸掉我台鐵的很難得"},{"start":5110.248,"end":5128.39,"text":"我們海豐號每一個人去回來都很滿意可是他沒有看到這一幕看到這一幕他就根本無法吃喝我跟你講所以董事長我要拜託這件事情要約束我們的城堡散傷"},{"start":5129.611,"end":5155.921,"text":"食安的問題 課不容緩食安的問題 零容忍所以這些東西不要說人家沒有看到就是乾淨這樣對我們自己是不好的董事長 這個你同意嗎同意 零容忍這件事情確實也是這樣我們會嚴格的要求這個陳商好 我也希望部長啊嚴公對於這件事情黃先生這件事情對的人放不對的位置"},{"start":5156.961,"end":5185.047,"text":"員工是敢怒不敢言我要拜託部長我要拜託董事長適度的技巧性一定要息怒我認為人事我說實在我們肯定黃先生有專長但是要擺對的位置不要說因為他是有關係他就沒有關係這樣不好員工那麼多不是只有一個黃先生這個我特別提醒盡快課不容緩趕快去處理好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5187.728,"end":5207.84,"text":"好 謝謝林國昌委員 謝謝 請回好 接下來再請李昆哲委員 李昆哲召委發言謝謝洪孟愷召委 請一下陳世凱部長 鄭光元董事長 楊振軍局長部長 董事長 局長請"},{"start":5213.308,"end":5234.795,"text":"部長好 有關於台鐵公司的話他最重要的目標當然是要提升旅客的安全加強他相關的服務的效率讓台鐵能夠永續的經營當然員工的權益也必須獲得實質的保障跟提升"},{"start":5236.656,"end":5263.97,"text":"我們看到勞基法當然它一個很重要的精神當然是保障勞工的一個最低的一個權益的保障而且是要平衡相關的勞僱關係來作為一個公司能夠公平的運作一個重要的基礎但是我們看到台鐵公司對於員工的照顧我認為是還是不足是"},{"start":5264.69,"end":5289.107,"text":"那之前有跟部長提到過相關的公司化之後那員工的薪資或者是津貼或者是福利或者是權益必須要有具體的政策來讓員工加強對公司化之後的信心那部長當時也有答應那我來請教一下我們相關的規劃是什麼"},{"start":5290.087,"end":5318.244,"text":"報告委員這一年來我們去年就比照軍公教的這個調薪調三趴 今年那另外針對春節疏運的這個獎金我們一天一千五百塊那四天就最高可以到六千那另外針對搶修的部分我們就是一律發給一千 調整之後按照天數可以到達六千那另外危險加急的部分我們有增加一千二到三千不等那另外"},{"start":5319.164,"end":5348.184,"text":"針對區域加擠也就是比較偏鄉例如說花東地區我們的區域加擠也有到630然後到3090塊不等所以其實我們各項都有盡量在努力逐步的來提升如果我們現在票價也調整然後相關的營運效率有出來的話也必須要讓員工來共享相關的這樣的一個成長的生活 董事長在這個董事會議還有通過了更好的一些方案包含夜點費我是不是請董事長來來 董事長說明一下"},{"start":5350.605,"end":5375.551,"text":"這個在我們這個夜點費因為員工最考慮的那以前在8年前訂的大概是120那我們這一次在我們交通部的大力的支持下我們也跟工會這邊完成一個協議那就現在的這個案子已經通過了我們的這個董事會的審議所以120調到最高可以到400另外還有案子就是說我們的主管加急那主管加急是我們對於這個基層的"},{"start":5376.471,"end":5396.303,"text":"二三級站的這個站長的部分我們大概都加以上的我們加原來的這個百分之五十以上的職能加息那這兩個案子我們都現在都是已經送到在今天應該昨天送出去會到這個我們交通局謝謝部長跟董事長對於台鐵"},{"start":5397.644,"end":5425.252,"text":"勞工的相關的薪資權益津貼有具體的一個作為但是我剛才提到說勞基法它是保障勞工最低的一個條件而且是平衡勞僱關係也能夠促進公司的一個公平的運作我要提醒部長跟董事長勞動部有一個違反勞動法令的相關事業單位的一個查詢系統那"},{"start":5427.173,"end":5447.021,"text":"台鐵公司這兩年的成績實在是不好看那近兩年違反勞動基準法總共有五件那這兩年違反就業服務法中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法以及職安法總共有七件"},{"start":5448.038,"end":5476.65,"text":"那相關的類型不管是勞基法的工資給付與加班費這個有三件衛醫法給予勞工特休假一件職災補償一件那相關的違反職安法相關的法令不管是工作現場安全管理失當或者是承攬與分包管理疏失以及機械設備的防護不足那這些其實就"},{"start":5478.25,"end":5498.588,"text":"顯示出兩個問題我要提醒部長跟董事長第一個就是說台鐵公司的這個管理它管理制度老化當然它還是沿襲過去公務機關的這種慣性那也顯示新式的企業管理的思維並沒有導入這個台鐵公司的企業文化裡面"},{"start":5499.289,"end":5517.518,"text":"另外就是我們相關的監督跟集合不足我們這種即時能夠顯示違法行為公司沒有辦法即刻的查核沒有辦法即刻的發現這是一個問題來部長先請董事長說明一下"},{"start":5519.309,"end":5537.556,"text":"我想謝謝這個委員的這個指教確實這一兩年來我們在這一部分的做是非常的不到位那我們也針對這個問題我們分成就是兩個部分我們按照這個勞基法的這個要求一定要確實做到我們在這兩年"},{"start":5538.416,"end":5567.906,"text":"台鐵公司就五件了那這兩年高鐵公司沒有相關勞基法違法的案件那違反職安法相關的法令這兩年台鐵公司有七件那高鐵公司也有三件但是相關的大家對於高鐵公司保障勞工基本權益的做法大家比較有信心台鐵這個部分必須要加強要做到您違法的這樣的一個目標高鐵有做到勞基法的部分"},{"start":5568.266,"end":5582.438,"text":"那台鐵公司必須要加油董事長那你簡單說明一下我們會努力在執行方面在法令要求基層的主管要落實以外我們也要加強我們的集合制度好"},{"start":5583.379,"end":5609.232,"text":"那相關的有關於月初台北火車站發生性侵的這樣的一個事件造成社會的嘩然跟憤怒這也顯示我們相關車站對於婦女以及弱勢族群的這個保護這個安全網是嚴重的有問題當然台北公司跟鐵警局也有提出事項的加強台北車站"},{"start":5610.697,"end":5627.878,"text":"安全防護的這些措施以及計畫那我要提醒部長跟董事長台北車站這個問題的核心並不是在於缺乏計畫而是缺乏執行力跟人力不足的問題那"},{"start":5630.543,"end":5645.758,"text":"我們台北車站必須要加強這種場域安全的這種風險的盤點以及人力配置不足的問題必須去做檢討跟改進來 董事長你們有什麼更具體的作為"},{"start":5646.158,"end":5664.821,"text":"是的 我們這事情發生以後我們跟鐵井做有這個聯訪的機制那我們做法就是把月台上的一些保全然後調到這個一樓這邊來每30分鐘的巡邏那這個部分是暫時的情況現在目前 這只是暫時"},{"start":5665.842,"end":5686.977,"text":"董事長我剛才提醒過你補足人力是一個重要的議題還有相關的加強這種現場的防護網這也是重要的一個方向我們必須要知道台鐵公司在這兩方面有什麼更具體不是說什麼相關的措施或計畫更具體的執行力跟人力不足的問題你必須要面對"},{"start":5687.777,"end":5703.114,"text":"是的 所以我們11月1號會把這個本來從那邊吊上來的這個我們就專責在月台上了那這樣的話就可以月台完全守住然後在這個大廳這邊的話我們也確實能夠做好這個訪問另外跟委員報告"},{"start":5703.635,"end":5727.047,"text":"就是我們也會跟內政部來溝通就鐵井的部分人力可不可以增加那另外因為台北車站是重要的國家的關鍵設施我們可以透過這個國土辦國土辦公室來做專案的申請警力的這個協助這個部分我們也會協助台鐵公司部這邊來協助台鐵公司除了相關鐵井的增加之外是否也要徵聘相關的保全人員"},{"start":5728.157,"end":5755.188,"text":"保全應該要增加保全應該要增加而且我們在跟鐵警局也要協調協調設立相關的常駐的哨點常駐的哨點來確保相關高風險區域的一個基本的保障那像廁所大廳出入口等等那我們會做到24小時的這樣的一個巡守嗎來董事長說明一下24小時"},{"start":5757.748,"end":5778.655,"text":"我們現在是沒有到24小時吧有嗎輪班確實在我們在這個大廳這邊是24小時輪班那就跟這個鐵井那這個11月1號以後這個保全就是專責了好 相關的台北車站當然是有他的安全的一個破口"},{"start":5779.417,"end":5805.004,"text":"那就是說它鬆散不夠嚴謹的安全網是必須我們來做一個全盤的檢討那相關的也不只是台北火車站像桃園 高雄 台中等等這些重要的車站我們必須都通盤的來做安全網的一個檢討必須讓旅客搭乘火車有一個安心的車站"},{"start":5806.284,"end":5826.404,"text":"這個是很重要的來最後讓董事長跟部長來做補充說明有關於剛才委員提的這個保全的部分的話我們確定已經在徹底的盤點那我們應該8月的時候已經開始最不足的地方我們趕快就來補充這個保全的人員"},{"start":5827.472,"end":5847.407,"text":"好謝謝董事長跟部長謝謝委員保障勞工的權益保障旅客的安全這都是台鐵的一個重要的責任跟工作我們會嚴加的督促好謝謝委員好謝謝召委好接下來再請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5856.325,"end":5859.089,"text":"好感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部常務部長"},{"start":5866.755,"end":5892.154,"text":"委員好部長好部長在週日就10月26號總統又到台南他去看災後重建的時候他有特別跟我提到兩個第一個就台南未來的重道交通建設第一是捷運目前直轄市六都只有台南市沒有任何捷運明年渴望第一條藍線可以動工第二個"},{"start":5893.294,"end":5914.828,"text":"就是市區的鐵路地下化即將完工 通車那接下來鐵路完北走就是到永康就延永康鐵路地下化那永康的鐵路地下化對於目前台南市的整體交通來講非常重要永康已經是台南超過20萬人口的第二大的行政區"},{"start":5916.363,"end":5943.033,"text":"那永康的鐵路地下化目前可行性這個評估已經獲得行政院的核定 是但我們也特別希望交通部這裡以及行政院的支持能夠在明年底以前完成綜合規劃作業的核定那這個地方恐怕就當然需要中央跟地方來密切合作 是"},{"start":5944.059,"end":5971.944,"text":"那個這點是不是請部長能夠全力來支持好 報告委員永康鐵路地下化現在列為我們鐵道局很重要的一個綜合規劃的業務那現在鐵道局正在趕進度我們希望能夠到明年底我們設定的目標就是明年底要獲得行政院的核定那這個部分鐵道局會全力來趕進度對 總統那天也是這麼講希望在明年底以前永康鐵路地下化能夠得到行政院的核定"},{"start":5974.162,"end":5996.914,"text":"不知道你有沒有看到 現在這裡就是永康鐵路地下化了以後至少我們可以消除幾個平交道像這個永康橋 永康橋就是奇美醫院你英雄如果踢到地上 機密便衣前面那個路橋就沒了另外就是英雄的康橋大道平交道這就是總圖附近了"},{"start":5998.812,"end":6026.006,"text":"另外就是四維路平橋道四維路平橋道跟烏水橋平橋道這幾個平橋道有路橋中正路路橋你如果去英通交流道國道1號下來你就看到一個很奇怪的路線那個路橋也可以拿掉另外就是英台路外的路橋都可以通通不見所以1號你去之後你大概還要蓋幾個新的車站我看這裡有一個大橋站"},{"start":6027.253,"end":6037.346,"text":"這是地下車站 地下車站大橋站就在旁邊另外設一個康橋站康橋站就是大概在那個總圖附近在那個地方的話"},{"start":6043.328,"end":6071.522,"text":"附近的人口就非常多因為未來那個地方 泡沙灘遷走以後那個地方在旁邊再設一個地下的鐵路車站這對地方的發展非常更是非常的期待所以我希望說我們在明年 明年再進展這個英空的鐵路鐵路法的綜合規劃可以來得到行政的核定好 我們來努力因為第二個台南市還有一個地方很重要的鐵路立體化也要人德人德鐵路立體化"},{"start":6073.583,"end":6081.769,"text":"這個地方 我還在保安交流道剛好在保安交流道我還去那條鐵路平交道火車給我擋住了"},{"start":6082.591,"end":6109.146,"text":"我在車上等了12分鐘可能這個台灣鐵路平交道很少啦它剛好有一個秘匯教授的時段就是南北向的客車貨車差不多趕那個時間那單橋要10分鐘那你很難去想像你知道它是在隔壁的出入口我們在鐵路立體化這當然是做活動的可行性評估啦一開始都做不過"},{"start":6110.927,"end":6128.688,"text":"本席就不放棄了我再請黃偉哲市長你再做因為我也結合地方的跟我看法相同支持我的議員再去議會提案請市長再繼續做可能性評估才最近才完成了那也提報到我們部裡面來"},{"start":6129.709,"end":6149.579,"text":"我們請交通部這裡能夠幫忙協助快速的審查我們能夠鐵路立體化的可見性評估是 報告員如果他們地方政府送過來我們會盡量加速加速審查因為這個林鄭的地路地下化主要她最麻煩的就是她的中間樓一段 平交道她在林鄭的時候才很擁擠"},{"start":6150.78,"end":6161.147,"text":"它還有一個招待的就是說鐵路在上面然後它地下道的通行車輛彈隧橋這個在地方也是惡名昭彰那些都很難通行的"},{"start":6162.065,"end":6179.874,"text":"那麼在新的市政府送過來的案子裡面你醫療的人在鐵路高架化以後仁德車站的原地 原地繼續保留他就是差不多過港北高溪人在鐵路就開始高架起來"},{"start":6180.934,"end":6194.094,"text":"然後這個未來這個仁德站中正路的這個平交道就沒有了這對林鄭發展很重要林鄭如果重視到這個一段路的平交道這仁德市區的通行會非常順暢"},{"start":6195.598,"end":6212.547,"text":"所以臨陸站它是世界第一的地方但是變成一個高架的車站然後車子在經過潭水橋地下道未來的潭水橋地下道我們會消失是過潭水橋地下道它就開始慢慢地降下來過山脈會變平面"},{"start":6214.588,"end":6235.356,"text":"所以原地的保安站因為剛好在立體化的這個下降的波段所以保安站會往北移往北移以後它就比較靠近這個比較靠近那個我們的那個旗美博物館啊 還有石谷的那個藝術文化園區"},{"start":6236.716,"end":6255.904,"text":"所以這個鐵路在外面也可以連接我們在掛斷屏的生活圈還有保安工業區周遭一個奇美博物館跟石鼓園區之間整個會串聯起來所以這點我也請拜託我們江東部這裡能夠加速審查另外還有一個捷運台南市捷運"},{"start":6257.765,"end":6284.031,"text":"六都市有 台南沒有啦那明年第一條喔 葡萄園你看一下因為美女要做這條啦藍線藍線喔 藍線喔這條就是台南中華東路平石營區的轉運站它對白要走到營空的大橋車站嘛大橋車站大概齊美醫院那裡那其中喔要趕快競速來幫忙審查的就是這個藍色的藍延線就是藍色的延長線"},{"start":6285.331,"end":6313.977,"text":"藍色延長線對於仁德轉運站回來它有兩條一條往東再到冠廟再中它就是對於仁德中山入口那裡的仁德轉運站開始連結歸零到冠廟北站就冠廟再中它另外一條向南是走到各地的台南站就會連結到高鐵站這個叫藍色延長線因為跟這個名人動工的這個藍色線一起在一起所以這步也請我們那個交通部要加速來協助審查我們來加速審議"},{"start":6315.037,"end":6327.602,"text":"另外在這個地方它還有一個深綠線對深綠線接到更重要的地方就是到蘭科不同的你也知道是現在蘭科的產值已經高過竹科"},{"start":6328.92,"end":6357.171,"text":"所以你以後這條勝綠線你等於可以連結對南科你要坐捷運你可以直接坐到高鐵站是也就是說以後來到台南高鐵站的南科他不一定要坐車走國道1或者走平面道路回到南科他可以坐捷運直接到南科去是所以這是接下來就明年底這個核定準備動工的南線"},{"start":6358.404,"end":6360.871,"text":"再來就是藍色的延長線這個藍延線 藍色延長線跟深綠線會串聯市區靠南科的"},{"start":6366.377,"end":6389.649,"text":"另外一條藍色延長線就有隔離的這個柏文也請交通部來加速審查好 我們加速審查這個沒有問題我們都會支持台南的捷運建設我們都很支持因為台南也算委屈六島只有台南沒有捷運進度比較慢總算等到第一條的捷運美麗就要斷崗了是那你捷運只蓋一條是沒有用的沒有錯那你要形成一個路網對"},{"start":6390.689,"end":6415.636,"text":"那你看他隨便一個計劃都是10年12年那經費都非常可怕都是好幾百億以上所以我們一定要保護我們台南我告訴你這是最好的機會我們一定要保護這個時辰來把未來台南這個10年甚至20年後的整體整體的路網做好一個超前的部署也感謝博電的全力支持好謝謝委員好謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":6420.658,"end":6438.444,"text":"請回 謝謝好 接下來再請蔡其昌委員就選謝謝主席請陳部長跟鐵道局楊局長來 陳部長 楊局長請謝謝委員好"},{"start":6449.079,"end":6468.513,"text":"好部長好局長好今天因為鐵道只有這個鄭董事長來所以我先把一個小一個事情我先讓部長先讓部長跟那個死者董事長也聊也溝通了解一下這個我們只要遇到這種"},{"start":6469.744,"end":6481.983,"text":"大型的節日或者是連假這個高鐵其實現在平日也塞啦所以我上一次有特別去跟史哲董事長去提到我們這個行李的置放因為車廂是舊的"},{"start":6484.465,"end":6506.1,"text":"那這個車廂是舊的新的車廂在日本打造史哲董事長有特別跟我說明說對於行李放置區空間有增加空間的利用會強化會增加但是等到新的車載現在這個舊的不要講廉價平常特別是桃園有停的"},{"start":6506.924,"end":6524.645,"text":"那個行李真的沒有地方放這個造成很大的困擾動線常常在那個該有的動線常常都被放置大型行李所以未來新車廂那未來就你們現在已經想到了應該去做好規劃但現行的方法裡面你看這個"},{"start":6528.21,"end":6553.706,"text":"這個新聞報導光復解這個廉價你看這個車子八個人搭高鐵下不了車我想應該不止八個人搞不好還有那個不知道的下不了車為什麼下不了車這個就是被行李廂擋住下不了車那自由座開放站票其他車廂開放站票這已經回復到台鐵的狀況"},{"start":6555.525,"end":6571.977,"text":"以前這個年輕的時候搭台鐵只要快下車之前我都要先去卡那個車子的門因為我才下得了車我說廉價的時候要先擠到前面要先擠到前面不然你下不了車所以現在的高鐵如果品質不提升它就會變台鐵"},{"start":6573.017,"end":6588.93,"text":"就大家還是為了要下車我要趕快提早就要擠到門口去不然我等一下下不了車嘛所以這個會造成其實服務的量能跟品質都會大家所詬病所以短期是不是應該有一些新的做法短期應該在新車廂沒有進來之前應該先去研議"},{"start":6591.332,"end":6613.074,"text":"譬如說怎麼去因為不能隨便改造車廂但是在管理上可不可以著手譬如說小件的行李宣導放上面小件的行李因為小件行李都把它放在那個行李放置的區域大件行李就放大件行李又不能搬上去上面所以部長這個可不可以"},{"start":6613.973,"end":6637.257,"text":"跟局長研議一下跟台鐵公司研議一下跟高鐵公司研議一下短期在舊新車廂還沒進來舊車廂怎麼處理對這個確實是大家現在覺得困擾的問題現在旅客越來越多行李也越來越多但是我們的車廂的量能大概就是這個樣子那所以辦法我們跟鐵道局也好跟高鐵公司也好我們會一起來研商看要怎麼協助"},{"start":6638.197,"end":6662.87,"text":"對 我要為這些在搭高鐵的這些民眾消費者講講話這個真的要想個辦法盡量沒有辦法100%解決但是展現我們要解決這個問題的態度跟做法是很重要的另外這個一個小事像這種我們都要去注意像這個監理站 道安講席播放這個 播放簡體制"},{"start":6664.605,"end":6686.541,"text":"我是覺得這個其實是很不妥 不用 不用沒關係 小事 小事坐下來簡體制常常會有 但是政府機關 民間大家就算了有時候書寫方便 有時候為了什麼其他問題但政府機關一定要特別去督促就是在政府的公文書 政府的相關的這些宣傳品上面不應該用簡體制"},{"start":6688.564,"end":6703.366,"text":"反體制是中華民國才特有的我們這個國家在整體這種文字文化的上面這個部長對 這個我們會特別去了解特別注意下去常常會有啦常常會有委員今天提到我們就有發現發現了就要趕快"},{"start":6704.728,"end":6732.345,"text":"對 你看民眾就會很在意這個大家就直接上網就直接就把你寫出來了所以這個不只監理所不只監理站的道安講習而是應該在政府交通部下屬對 我們下屬的所有的廠站都要注意這點這是common sense這個應該要做好接下來這個鐵路警察不足這個鐵路警察不足高鐵公司我看起來他們的保全"},{"start":6733.652,"end":6738.478,"text":"就大概拼了170幾個保全嘛是 台鐵公司有沒有打算要這樣做"},{"start":6739.987,"end":6767.009,"text":"台鐵公司目前正在盤點哪些車站需要保全那人力一定是朝增加的方向在走朝增加的方向因為他車站多那需要維護的也多那一方面我們會爭取內政部把鐵路警察的員額盡量再補多一點那二方面因為台鐵公司有很多是關鍵基礎設施我們會專案的來跟國土辦來申請專案的保全人那個警力進來協助那保全的人力也一定要再增加"},{"start":6767.93,"end":6781.783,"text":"部長我想從你當助理從我開始當委員開始要增加警察人力我們已經講了20幾年都是困難對 都是困難太了解了所以與其你看我今天連警察人力我都不想問你了因為這個"},{"start":6784.225,"end":6802.109,"text":"不只我們鐵路單位要政府各個單位都在含警力不足所以我們可以解決的方法像高鐵公司他就直接一百七十幾個保全那台鐵公司應該可以考量這是一個方向我覺得這個比較快我們保全優先來盤點優先來盤點增加人力"},{"start":6807.97,"end":6829.026,"text":"那最後一個問題就是海線鐵路雙軌的進度我想這個大概每一年交通部都要我辦公室來專案報告每一年我們也在爭取在討論那現在因為分兩個部分雙軌是中央可以直接處理所以本席過去一直主張不要再等地方政府了就是你要等台中市政府"},{"start":6830.608,"end":6849.045,"text":"雙軌因為高價需要市政府依照分配比例需要市政府出錢那雙軌不用市政府出錢所以過去本席本來很希望雙軌高價一起來因為這個是最有效率對地方最好但是如果我們一直要等他的高價市政府一直不願意配合"},{"start":6849.758,"end":6857.16,"text":"那不能再等雙軌就只好先做所以交通部接受我的建議雙軌呢總共經費是161.95億中央全額負擔那現在在中規的二階環評照進度走"},{"start":6865.339,"end":6880.486,"text":"那現本席也 今年你們來報告的時候我也要求局長說持續跟市府溝通那現在呢高價的部分跟市府溝通有沒有新的進度高價化的部分交通部全力支持那市府的進度我是不是請局長來 局長"},{"start":6882.107,"end":6899.696,"text":"因為市政府最新送進來的報告跟我們所謂經費分擔上面的這個議題還沒有達成完全的這樣的一個了解 還是不願意就對了不願意依照中央地方分配的比例來做好 你持續溝通啦但是我覺得效果很有限啦"},{"start":6900.636,"end":6923.975,"text":"反正他就吃定你啦財政收支劃分已經割一塊去了大家也就割了嘛反正地方政府然後你該負擔的你又不願意出又要叫中央出這個就擺明不想做啦我的看法就是擺明不想做啦所以局長你一定要這個雙軌一定要照進度走啦就是照二階環評就照進度這樣走"},{"start":6925.161,"end":6940.797,"text":"但是不能因為高階一直在等著他的所謂這個高架化就立體化而淡入了我們雙軌化的這個進程了解可以嗎是好這個很重要啦這個部長雙軌化不會拖延對一直也在關心這個案子好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6949.258,"end":6975.273,"text":"好 接下來再請陳樹越委員那陳樹越委員質詢完畢之後我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長還有鄭董事長陳部長 鄭董事長請鄭董事長 謝謝委員好部長早"},{"start":6976.215,"end":7004.397,"text":"今天委員會是針對這個台鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討以及改善員工職場安全的一個專題報告那在這邊本席首先針對有關就是這個車站的安全的問題那我們看到從今年從四月到現在十月份短短的半年之間就發生了七件這個台鐵員工遭受到這個暴力攻擊的一個事件"},{"start":7005.217,"end":7020.379,"text":"那針對這樣子的屢次發生的這樣子的一個事件我想對於台鐵員工在工作上也會有這個承受了很大的一個壓力所以在這個部分不曉得我們交通部有沒有比較積極的對策可以來"},{"start":7021.821,"end":7043.442,"text":"加強我們台鐵員工在上班的時候執行的時候的一個安全是 跟委員報告其實台鐵公司針對這些案件也都相當注意那也很支持我們的員工在法律的訴訟上面他們也有提供法律上面的支持那另外一方面就是也有在討論有沒有要裝密錄器這件事但是這個部分還沒有得到員工大家的"},{"start":7043.942,"end":7060.763,"text":"同意啦有些員工覺得不需要再裝這個設備那另外針對保全的部分今天也有討論到那我們也朝向未來保全人力如果可以增加還有鐵井的人力如果可以增加的話我們會盡量來爭取增加的這個緣額那還有一點就是說對於員工的這個訓練"},{"start":7062.125,"end":7078.066,"text":"就是維安的訓練這個部分可能我覺得台鐵公司也應該有作為也是對於員工如何保護自己的這個作為應該有要做一定的這個訓練這個部分應該台鐵公司也有在做那還有要董事長要補充一下嗎簡單補充一下"},{"start":7079.428,"end":7093.477,"text":"大概我們朝向這剛才部長講的那個方向在做了尤其在我們自己防衛列車上的這個列車長還有我們站上的人員的這種自我防衛的方式然後相對的就等於是要制止這個"},{"start":7095.038,"end":7120.308,"text":"不法人員的部分我們會馬上 我們有這種訓練那另外就是說如果是在受到這個旅客呢 辱罵這些部分我們已經有設立我們這個法務的資源那麼對於 如果員工要提高的話呢我們會對這個旅客來協助我們的員工來保護他職場上的安全"},{"start":7121.518,"end":7145.378,"text":"我們也希望就是說我們交通部跟台鐵公司這邊就是要去思考怎樣比較周到然後全面性的可以去防範這樣子的一個事件的發生那除了就是說這個遭遇這個蓄意的暴力攻擊之外我們也看到在10月27號在高雄捷運有發生了一件這個高中女生落軌身亡的一個意外事件"},{"start":7146.238,"end":7148.24,"text":"所以對於整個軌道運輸的越台的乘客的安全問題我想這個安全也是包括員工因為我們剛剛提到的台鐵員工被攻擊他是被推落落下軌道"},{"start":7162.794,"end":7178.235,"text":"那在高雄捷運這個是高中女生落軌可能是自己跌下去的所以對於這個月台上這個安全的一個問題我們交通部這邊有沒有就是比較具體的一些可以推動的改善"},{"start":7178.815,"end":7204.662,"text":"跟委員報告除了剛剛在講的那些措施之外我們對於一些車站的月台門我們也開始在做精進我們目前高雄站應該實驗性的月台門已經做得差不多了那明年3月明年3月就會安裝完成那如果實驗過後可以的話我們希望在重要的車站尤其是人潮比較眾多風險那個係數比較高的地方我們先來裝月台門"},{"start":7205.382,"end":7212.053,"text":"那除了台鐵之外高鐵其實也是會朝這個方向未來高鐵應該是每一個車站都會有月台門"},{"start":7213.606,"end":7235.439,"text":"我們看到目前台鐵做的這個就是月台門跟高鐵是不一樣的對 因為台鐵的車型比較多種比較多樣化那因為它每一個車子的門開的地方不一樣跟高鐵不一樣高鐵是固定那個地方有車門但是台鐵每一個車型不同的話它那個車的開門的地方都不一樣"},{"start":7236.059,"end":7253.245,"text":"是所以這個纜繩式的這個月台門目前就是我們台鐵採用的一個設計那這個目前是還在就是測試階段嗎還是是的現在在測試那我們預計在明年的3月呢可以完成這個安裝"},{"start":7254.601,"end":7281.013,"text":"是高雄站還是全部就是高雄的部分我們先在高雄試用試辦那整個狀況如果順暢的話以後我們就是往其他車站來推廣是那我們也發現說這個目前在就是進行了這個工程造價好像蠻高的那未來在其他的車站在設置的時候還是會需要這麼大的一個工程費用嗎"},{"start":7282.217,"end":7301.022,"text":"這個部分的話確實以目前看來這個案子的經費是很大但是因為這裡面有牽涉到設計如果將來我們採取這個這個部分的這樣的形式那在其他的車站的話因為設計費用已經有包括在這邊了所以看是不是可以把費用往下降"},{"start":7303.484,"end":7321.984,"text":"接下來我想請教有關勞動條件的問題我們看到台鐵的企業工會提出了勞資爭議的一個條件總共有12項想請問部長或者是董事長對於他們的訴求您的看法如何"},{"start":7324.349,"end":7348.905,"text":"跟委員報告其實這12項這個工會的這個議題我們都很非常的重視我也多次的跟他們的這個理事長還有相關的人員討論過那針對這裡面最重要的兩項其實我們在就是一個是夜點會跟這個主管家級的部分我們已經在通過我們的董事會來同意那夜點會的話我們從120"},{"start":7351.267,"end":7365.523,"text":"塊錢的話那麼提升到最高可以到400塊那這個主管加給的話也提升大概都是50%以上的這個額度所以這一部分的話我們現在已經送往交通部在陳河中是"},{"start":7366.283,"end":7392.338,"text":"所以最近就會核定了是嗎會 交通部全力支持這兩個議案所以在這邊我們也很興建這個台鐵公司這個善意的一個回應那目前就是宣布有關這個夜點費就是調升三倍了從120到400對那有關這個加擠的部分也有提升所以我覺得這部分我們是很肯定的那除了這個之外我們希望就是說對於"},{"start":7393.459,"end":7402.46,"text":"其他的訴求我們也可以也是希望能夠有一些進度跟回應會的這部我們也持續在檢討會進行中"},{"start":7403.686,"end":7430.228,"text":"OK好謝謝鄭董事長那鄭董事長請先回座好了接下來我想請問有部長就是有關這個監理業務的問題因為我們看到在中台灣就是南投嘉義雲林都有兩處這個監理站包括監理分站那以彰化來說26鄉鎮123萬的人口目前就只有一個"},{"start":7431.268,"end":7455.073,"text":"監禮站是位在張北的花壇所以對於我們張南的甚至很遙遠的這個西藍角的部分大成方院竹塘二營這邊如果有相關的這個監禮業務要辦的時候對他們來說是非常遙遠所以很多這邊西藍角的鄉親遇到本席的時候都有在反映說希望在張南可以設這個監禮分站"},{"start":7457.113,"end":7474.642,"text":"那是不是請那個部長可以承諾 跟委員報告這個部分我知道彰化其實浮雲非常遼闊那所以我們現在有用這個行動監理車的方式先短期先處理就是說我們有些行動監理車固定時間會到某些鄉鎮 目前有嗎"},{"start":7475.382,"end":7496.595,"text":"目前應該是有啦目前是有 有在做行動監理車的部分會先做那另外就是委員在講的張瀾的監理站我們現在先優先我們去跟彰化縣政府也好或者是說找地區的鄉公所大家來合作因為如果你還要蓋再找地那還要一段時間那如果可以用他現在的公所可以跟我們合屬辦公或者是衛生"},{"start":7497.495,"end":7516.927,"text":"所 可以跟我們合處辦公的話 我們會優先來處理 優先來辦理好 那就是就部長回覆的這個答案我是可以接受啦那可是我希望有一個進度 是不是 那進度我們後續再跟委員報告 會後是不是請那個相關的主管 沒問題 沒問題 跟我們這邊聯繫一下 沒問題沒問題 好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7523.286,"end":7527.147,"text":"謝謝我們現在依照剛剛宣布休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":7556.015,"end":7571.288,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7576.711,"end":7585.335,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7588.677,"end":7604.701,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7604.701,"end":7621.63,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7624.15,"end":7641.897,"text":"那我不要"},{"start":7651.364,"end":7653.791,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7667.344,"end":7675.589,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7699.903,"end":7709.007,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7713.009,"end":7735.837,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7742.534,"end":7755.806,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7768.116,"end":7768.376,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7781.664,"end":7802.671,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7848.659,"end":7856.026,"text":"好那我們現在交通委員會繼續開會首先再請許富奎委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們陳部長陳部長請"},{"start":7876.465,"end":7903.152,"text":"非常好部長早部長我想最近這個汽車市場這個瀰漫一個新的一個訊息尤其是針對目前這個台美貿易談判最近聽說這個美製的車輛進口關稅可能會降到零所以這些新購汽車新購主這個躍躍欲試不曉得部長有沒有接到這樣一個訊息報告委員交通部的部分我們是負責安全審驗的部分"},{"start":7903.672,"end":7931.304,"text":"那至於關稅的部分那是財政部我們目前沒有接到他們任何的訊息部長認為如果這個一口氣宣佈到零的時候對整個國內這個交通的影響跟環境會不會有受到衝擊有人說這個對特斯拉看有何處部長認為我覺得應該會對於整體的車市都有蠻重大的影響車的價格或許會稍微調降一些部長那我想我們過去一直提到這個所謂的一個"},{"start":7932.544,"end":7959.057,"text":"運具電動化的一個目標那包含我們的電動巴士也好我們這個商用的小客車也好過去我們有提到一個商用車輛電動化跟無碳化的一個減碳旗艦行動計畫要提供這個計程車購車補助每輛最高35萬那這部分但是我們在這個明年的預算裡面並沒有看到這一項的編列那這部分會執行嗎是 我請司長跟委員回答一下"},{"start":7961.608,"end":7986.556,"text":"跟委員報告那個商用車電動化旗艦計畫是因為是由環境部在統籌來來送院審查那院是在9月30號已經核給環境部了那因為9月30號大概因為來不及編115年的預算那我們現在會著手編116年的預算來所以要再慢一年對對因為已經那個來不及編明年的預算"},{"start":7987.515,"end":7998.508,"text":"我想這個推動這樣低碳的一個環境也是我們努力的目標 沒錯那尤其針對這個電動巴士的部分感覺上我們的進度比較慢一點電動巴士如果是市區公車的話我們這個進度還是在進行"},{"start":8003.593,"end":8018.3,"text":"預期的進度上 這個沒問題 那我們 那預算也有編列所以明年度如果有需要的話 各個地方政府提出來 我們都會來協助不是地方 各個公司啦各個客運公司如果提出來 我們都會來協助好 我想這個我們應該列為我們很重要的一個目標"},{"start":8019.821,"end":8040.313,"text":"部長那我想我上一次質詢有特別提到這個因為我們今年這個從九月到十月有三個這個連假那當然我知道部長也很很用心也有自己有跑到我們南部來看一下整個輸運的狀況但是最近有發生了一個高鐵這個有乘客因為這個行李的關係下不了車一個狀況"},{"start":8041.434,"end":8069.927,"text":"那我有特別提到明年至少有9個廉價那我們在整個鐵路公路還有這個高鐵運輸的部分我們有沒有做一個比較嚴謹的一個規劃我想我們應該避免這樣的一個狀況發生怎麼樣做營運跟委員報告對交通部來講我們希望各個運具的運量要均衡所以這幾年我們一直在努力說希望鼓勵大家去搭國道客運那那個都有打折甚至最低打到6折65折"},{"start":8071.047,"end":8097.558,"text":"那都是由交通部這邊來補助讓大家可以去搭乘不一樣的運具台鐵也很舒服那國道客運也很舒服但最近確實有觀察到很多的民眾是習慣搭高鐵那高鐵越來越擁擠的這個議題其實我們從這一兩年來我們一直在討論這個議題那最嚴重的就像委員您所提出來的高鐵上有人下不了車這個對旅客來講是蠻嚴重的事情"},{"start":8098.078,"end":8116.475,"text":"那我們也在跟高鐵公司正在研商看什麼樣的方法例如說是不是哪一些特別會擁擠的班次我們的自由座的人數有沒有要管控因為如果你完全不管控的狀況底下大家就是把他塞到滿塞到滿就會有上不了車或下不了車的問題"},{"start":8117.276,"end":8136.091,"text":"不是 因為我們幾乎每天都在坐高鐵我們都看得到因為我們現在很多國外旅客大家都大包小包啦行李非常大非常多 而且都很大那尤其我們一些像板橋業或什麼這些小站的停留時間比較短那我們的工作人員如果沒有注意真的就會發生這樣下不了車的狀況"},{"start":8138.773,"end":8157.402,"text":"這個我要到台中或是哪裡的人被擠在車上所以我覺得當然這個今天高鐵是董事長沒有來 未來應該是不是檢討 像董事長講的部長講的 未來針對自由做的部分還是有沒有這個整個運量調整部分有沒有怎麼樣一個分流的一個措施應該去思考一下啦"},{"start":8157.862,"end":8179.168,"text":"是 報告員 我們這個會持續跟高鐵公司來研商確實要做人潮的分流那甚至是人潮的管控 這個部分其實要去做如果不做讓他 禮拜一早上禮拜一早上跟禮拜五下班更恐怖對 都會塞得很滿 都會塞得很滿好 這部分再麻煩 我們這個部分我們來跟高鐵公司一起來那麻煩我們台鐵政董事長 謝謝"},{"start":8190.001,"end":8211.126,"text":"董事長我想我們現在台鐵公司化之後大家都寄予厚望那我知道您這個上任之後您也一直在努力調整我們這個整個一個內部的環境但是現在我們工會的部分因為這個過去也有一個類似這個跟我們公司體制裡面有一些抗衡的一些包含捍衛勞工權的一些做法"},{"start":8211.906,"end":8219.849,"text":"那董事長 未來針對這樣的一個廉價還有我們這個勞工的一個權益問題董事長有沒有什麼樣的看法 會不會再發生一個抗爭的一個事件"},{"start":8221.164,"end":8248.005,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那事實上跟工會這邊我一上任以後我一直跟我們的工會保持一個非常通暢的一個協調那他們最關心的這個12項這個福利事項那我也在裡面的最重要的兩點就是一個是夜點會一個是主管加擠這個部分我們已經通過董事會的這個核定那其中夜點會我們從120增加到最高400塊"},{"start":8249.466,"end":8271.607,"text":"那另外我們的這個主管加急方面大概也都是加了50%以上所以這一部分的話現在已經送到董事會裡面送到這個交通部這邊來核定如果核定以後我們可以夜點會我們明年的1月1號就可以來實施那這個主管加急的話我們會今年會回收到今年的1月1號那這樣的話我想這樣的話對公會應該有這個"},{"start":8274.75,"end":8298.424,"text":"一個非常像作用的好的作用那其他的部分我們也持續在檢討董事長我想我們這個見了好幾次面我也有特別跟你提到我們這個年輕的這個同仁的一個心聲他們有些住在屏東住在高雄但是因為當時紛發在東部或在北部好像走出跟吃飯就沒有了"},{"start":8299.324,"end":8319.475,"text":"怎麼樣回家帶小孩每次他們的使徒都跟我說委員你把手機都調回來好不好我說因為你們公司有調動的一個制度但是我們還是期待在招考的過程裡面真的要有一項相關的配套措施啊能夠讓這些年輕人能夠願意回到我們自己的家鄉這樣子不然他們都很客氣啦"},{"start":8322.136,"end":8341.722,"text":"改天他帶不下去就跑去別的地方考試因為我們的基層的同仁都在缺因為都調不回來這是一個很嚴重的一個困境部長願意支持這樣的一個處理方式嗎報告委員我也相當支持因為確實台鐵要留才除了薪資以外他整體的勞動條件然後還有就是他的住宿的問題"},{"start":8342.682,"end":8361.923,"text":"如果可以讓他自己在自己的家鄉當然就很好對於未來流財一定會有幫助那我也請台鐵公司我們朝這個方向來演繹看怎麼協助所有的年輕員工可以更幸福的在這個地方工作對了我們都期待大家真的能夠安居樂業這個是我們幸福企業的一個表徵那最後我想"},{"start":8363.765,"end":8388.782,"text":"那個部長 針對屏東的交通建設高鐵 南延 屏東 還有我們這個訪寮大平台的計畫甚至這個屏南快速道路 我想多次我在院會跟委員都在質詢我也知道部長跟我們相關的主管都很用心但是速度真的很慢尤其我們這個鐵路也沒有雙軌這個我到現在那個屏南快速道路還要好幾年 高鐵"},{"start":8391.204,"end":8414.875,"text":"2039 我們的中部市長都跟我說這不是坐著的對不對真的聽起來都該心生了部長真的你要展現你的決心均衡台灣交通建設絕對是重中之重部長能承諾加快施程嗎好 報告委員這個部分我們全力來加速啦有很多的交通建設都是大家所期待也是真正要均衡台灣必須要做的一個前提所以我們交通部會全力來加速那最後針對我們這個捷運這個小港到"},{"start":8420.253,"end":8428.328,"text":"臨邊這條我想我們最近也跟高雄市政府繼續在溝通協調那目前的進程還有所謂的施工方式局長有沒有新的變化"},{"start":8429.661,"end":8452.133,"text":"我想目前我們在這個月初有召開過一次會議邀請屏東縣政府跟鋼管事務來做討論我們後面會繼續來做溝通因為現在是系統跟這個高架地下還有這個石化園區上面的這個相關的這些議題要做處理部長這是屏東第一條是是希望不要台死附中我很擔心好好我們一起來努力 拜託一下謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":8457.915,"end":8471.323,"text":"好再請黃健豪委員發言好謝謝這個主席我們一樣請交通部陳思凱部長陳部長請"},{"start":8484.244,"end":8511.779,"text":"部長我想兩週前我們交通委員會有讓台中來考察我們台中的捷運綠線延伸段的部分那當時當然我本席的立場當然是希望說我們所謂延伸到大坑這段可以優先來做那當時在這個會議中這個部長你也提到說因為這延伸段分為南段跟北段那所以在送建的時候因為南邊涉及到彰化的都市計畫所以說台中在送建的時候可以把它直接分成南段跟北段"},{"start":8512.279,"end":8541.318,"text":"但是我回來之後我們查了一下包含說過去台中的三海環線一開始送出去的時候是完整的計畫但是後來交通部意見一樣把它拆成由交通部來拆拆成三個計畫分成三線海線加後線那台中的當初的整個屯區捷運的延伸線整個環狀線的部分後來也是依據交通部意見拆成了紫線跟藍線的延伸段那像高雄的岡山路竹線也是依據國防意見一開始也是整個送進去後來也是由國防院核定拆成兩地段來進行"},{"start":8541.698,"end":8571.038,"text":"那我今天在這邊跟部長就教是說今天這些計劃一開始地方送上去都是完整的那這一次其實按照我們的捷運延伸線原先的計劃當然也希望是能夠完整的送進去來審也希望能夠完整的整段來通過但是因為就如同我所說因為這個光是過去這些屬於同一個地方政府同一個城市它的這個捷運建設它的這些鐵路建設它都會有可能因為計劃其成因為經費管理被拆分"},{"start":8571.818,"end":8601.23,"text":"像台中綠線捷運延伸線它是橫跨兩個城市彰化線跟台中市彰化線裡面又涉及到他們彰化市的問題所以等於同時間有三個地方政府會面對這個問題據我所知像去年今年初今年二月的時候我們內政部也又把張東擴大都市計畫又退回了一次所以等於現在這個東西又沒有進度所以對我來講或對交通部來講我的問題我們的尷尬點在於說對台中市政府我們要送出去我們當然希望一次來做完"},{"start":8601.71,"end":8619.947,"text":"可是因為這個什麼都市計畫這個都需要送內政部審都需要說中央來會來審但如果最後在中央這邊被退回的話地方來不及處理嘛所以要問說這個部分到時候這個細部到底我們是由我們猜還是到時候是送上去一次送上去之後由交通部來大家一起來"},{"start":8620.968,"end":8644.167,"text":"決定到底怎麼處理這部分跟委員報告都市計畫的部分交通部大概也幫不上忙他那個進度可能要自己去抓張東的部分要彰化縣政府他們自己去抓那另外對於拆分的部分委員剛剛有提到一個很關鍵的議題就是說他們都是整體各個地方都是整體送上來由國發會去建議他們你們要不要拆開"},{"start":8645.087,"end":8672.31,"text":"大概是這樣或者是由我們交通部來建議他要不要拆開所以對地方政府來說他還是要整個送上來那我們可以出建議建議他拆但是實際上要不要拆的這個動作都還是地方政府必須要去做所以我們在計畫那我把明確一點當初那天會刊的時候沒有講得很明確如果把明確一點留個記錄所以地方政府這次要送所謂的明年初要送綜合規劃一樣是把整個綠線延伸送上來"},{"start":8673.331,"end":8697.82,"text":"那看都市計畫有沒有趕上嘛讓他趕上我們就好大家一起台中彰化交通部一起合趕上當然就沒有問題嘛那如果沒趕上就沒趕上你們就會給建議嘛建議他們拆啦好OK那這樣沒問題喔但是拆不拆的決定權還是在地方政府自己來決定沒關係這個是反正到時候就是你們會建議嘛建議不建議拆或不拆是交通部的權限還是台中市的權限"},{"start":8699.212,"end":8715.604,"text":"我們可提也可不提但是就是台中市政府這邊要想要拆他再來請我們給他建議拆這是可以的當然這是客觀事實我們沒有想要拆但是如果如果沒有想要拆我們就不會建議他要拆都市計畫但是我有講都市計畫如果最後還是沒有進入"},{"start":8717.168,"end":8736.358,"text":"那台中市政府要去做決定因為這個決定權都還是在地方政府他們要自己做決定因為還是回到那天我們考察的時候我跟委員報告的那個觀念那個捷運系統的建制是地方自己辦的事項那中央只是一個協助的角色好沒問題這個部長接下來下一題這個"},{"start":8738.018,"end":8758.86,"text":"我想我只能關注我們部長上任之後的這些一言一行你去年9月2號上任的時候不久你來到台中視察台鐵的這個站台說要來幫我們裝這個設置相關的這些安全的這些閘門等等的那目前為止在目前以高雄車站的事辦算是要開始來做了明年3月對 那台中"},{"start":8759.941,"end":8784.916,"text":"因為你去年說要讓台中來做那目前好像只聞部長說但是相關計畫跟委員報告因為我們高雄是第一個事辦的站我們要確定這樣子的系統是可運行的而且是安全而且適合台鐵如果確定之後我們就會開始去推展到各個車站尤其是人數比較多的那台中車站我自己也在那邊搭車好幾次在上去的時候確實發現"},{"start":8786.517,"end":8812.356,"text":"假日的時候人潮蠻擁擠然後月台其實是相對擁擠的所以台中站應該到時候也會列為我們優先要設置這個所謂的月台閘門的這個站體之一那個評定標準就是說因為現在是等高雄先你所謂示範先看先走嘛對 我要先示範一段時間確定系統是穩定可行的那我想問問部長到時候現階段因為現在選高雄市所謂的示範那其他城市"},{"start":8813.462,"end":8826.434,"text":"的評定標準你是要等到高雄的事辦的結果現在現階段我們可以來看說哪些站點哪些大站或小站來決定要不要裝設這樣子的東西台鐵開始評估了嗎是不是請台鐵董事長好沒問題"},{"start":8827.25,"end":8851.608,"text":"我想我們會選這個高雄就是說這個越台門的設計因為台鐵的車種太多了所以它的這個做法就不像高鐵一樣就是說你可以疑似要鎖所有的車站都一樣那所以我們在這個情況之下我們就是先看哪一種方式看高雄現在這個方式是不是適合我們台鐵的部分"},{"start":8852.108,"end":8875.975,"text":"那至於說人潮的需要那當然我們現在開始已經開始評估說哪些是需要做月台門的我具體建議跟部長跟董事長來報告包含說過去當然曾經發生過意外的我們的五泉站跟太原站這是發生過事件的那如果從人潮來看松竹站松竹站它的人潮從去年到今年提升了20%"},{"start":8877.515,"end":8900.808,"text":"所以它其實人潮是增加因為它整個重劃區的關係所以人都變多所以像這種人潮明顯增加那因為它本來不是什麼A級站不是一級站它自己屬於小型的地方站本來是這樣一開始像什麼松竹那麼太原這些五泉你應該很清楚都只是區間車理論上停的小站但是因為它現在隨著人口成長它變成像是大家把當地捷運在做我想這也是交通部樂見的事情"},{"start":8901.468,"end":8911.929,"text":"當然捷運在做之後讓人潮提升非常多所以未來是不是可以把它像這些本來的小站也能夠因為人潮提升之後來把它裝設所謂的樂台有沒有機會這樣往這方向來思考"},{"start":8912.677,"end":8931.029,"text":"跟委員報告這個人潮的隨著人口的這個成長那旅客的這個成長的因素的話我們會列為考慮之一好 董事長謝謝那接下來在今天主題當然還是要討論一下安全問題這個我們回顧一下其實每次遇到重大事故就會喊要見警率所以從108年 114年 113年每一次"},{"start":8933.891,"end":8950.696,"text":"我想歷史許多新聞只要看到了台鐵或者是我們的這種公共運輸出問題的時候就會喊建請率建請率建請率但是實際上我們看這個預算當然這不歸你們不全然是你們的問題這個警察的部分缺額比例"},{"start":8952.092,"end":8976.999,"text":"預算原額是910人但現有原額有726人當然這是隔壁內政委員會的問題但是這實際上每次說要喊見警率提升但實際上真正的警察有提升嗎 沒有所以在安全的措施上面我覺得這個部分台鐵或是交通部有沒有什麼做法除了見警率提升之外到底要怎麼做或是你們要怎麼去跟內政部協調是警察要增加呢還是有其他的措施可以改變這個部分改進這個部分"},{"start":8978.656,"end":8991.528,"text":"當然長期來說跟內政部來爭取這個鐵路警察的員額的增加或者是實際派遣人力的增加這個我們當然會持續來拜託跟要求那另外針對關鍵基礎設施我們也會專案來跟內政部來請求這個專案的警力"},{"start":8996.292,"end":9021.697,"text":"那第三就是說獲取保全的人力能夠更快速的來補充也是一種方案那我也請台鐵公司開始再做研議我們針對保全人力的部分有沒有可能來增加部長您再看一下就是說我提供一個資料就是你們我們需要資料從1月1今天5月22號因為台鐵這個玉里花蓮區間車發生這個旅客攻擊列車事件所以當你們提出一些這個加強護車的勤務"},{"start":9023.917,"end":9050.578,"text":"那確實從4月到5月4月開始到5月5月到6月6月到7月7月到8月8月到9月底都有相關紀錄就是這個專案進行了大概半年左右但是928之後這個專案好像就停止了那我要講什麼就是說發生重大社會事件台鐵很積極我馬上請大家來協情提升見景率可是這個專案結束了之後又回到正常"},{"start":9051.55,"end":9070.657,"text":"好像是會讓一些有心人士或者說只能假設這個不定時炸彈有機可乘所以我們希望說如果在事件發生的當下見景率能夠提升你護車班次能夠提高那平常是到底是人地不足的問題還是什麼問題我覺得這部分是整個交通部跟內政部要一起去檢討可以嗎好我們一起來檢討董事長要回應嗎"},{"start":9075.543,"end":9102.793,"text":"我想這個提高健警力我們最近跟這個鐵警局這邊有一個非常好的一個這個共識就是說他們要用跨區跨域來這個執行他前路也就是說如果他到了台中以後他可以往前往下一個他的這個非轄區的部分去做那這樣的話所以我們現在這個跨車的這個每週是有439人已經增加到687人"},{"start":9104.053,"end":9120.672,"text":"那每週的這個車次也由453次增加到700人 700個車次所以有大幅的增加好 董事長謝謝 部長謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":9136.049,"end":9139.134,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長陳部長請"},{"start":9145.76,"end":9172.681,"text":"部長早 委員好就請教一下就說當然因為這陣子包括地方政府大家都在關心所謂的一個軌道工程地方主要的一個捷運是這個在明年度的預算跟原本的概算很多的部分少了非常多所以我們看到大概有幾個地方政府就說補助差那麼多有可能蓋不下去可是"},{"start":9173.542,"end":9197.757,"text":"我有聽到這個行政院院長跟部長去說反正一句話啦就是沒錢嘛對不對然後因為錢因為財化法等等的原因可是同一時間10月21號這個看到舊人在哭又看到新人在笑哇台南手條捷運中央決定補助193億然後市政府自籌多少一方面是覺得沒有了一方面又開啟一個新的一個計畫我覺得"},{"start":9200.171,"end":9213.096,"text":"我都對於這個正反變的這個訊息我真的想問一下部長你們對於現在軌道工程你們整個的一個已經核定了一個經費整個的一個政策到底是什麼你說一下吧"},{"start":9214.003,"end":9228.157,"text":"跟委員報告目前正在審核的案子其實還蠻多的我們這些進度還是持續走但是對於長期來說跟委員報告就是才化法之後我們能夠協助地方的力量應該是會減少"},{"start":9230.419,"end":9248.751,"text":"那減少之後就會有新的辦法但是目前新的辦法還沒出來所以我們原本在審議的過程包含桃園的也是一樣我們進度讓他持續走不要去拖延到地方的進度這個相當的關鍵所以我們進度持續走但是我們到底還有多少的預算可以來協助地方我們要看每一年的財政的狀況"},{"start":9251.278,"end":9275.715,"text":"我想說在這一次基本上已經核定了地方的一個軌道工程 除了六都加基隆市基隆市大家也吵了很久然後就準備要開始了 準備開始第一年各個地方整個看起來提出來的概算是399億在今年明年度然後你實際編的預算總共只有90億然後減少了"},{"start":9277.957,"end":9300.778,"text":"77%這所有在線上的六都加基隆市像這樣的一個減幅其實演發出來幾個問題第一個現在還很多的在可行性研究中規環評大家都知道每一次任何的軌道工程因為金額比較大技術很多地方的一個意見都被折磨了四五年通過哇 叫一流"},{"start":9301.912,"end":9318.201,"text":"多少的法規國法會所有的原則所有的例子拿出來一個一個的去判判讀出來我可以補助多少結果四五年跟你們磨了半天結果你四五個月不要說四五天啊你就決定沒有了"},{"start":9319.502,"end":9344.671,"text":"我就講第一個我覺得這種過五官斬六將五六年的一個專業抵不過你行政院長跟交通部你們幾個人講一下叭喳到底砍幾叭 隨便就把它砍掉這到底是以前的那叫做折磨人四五年根本不叫專業其實根本不值得一提我只要我的會員一看就可以減到多少我覺得有一點"},{"start":9345.911,"end":9366.982,"text":"羞辱到過去這麼努力的不管是鐵道局交通部國發跟行政院整個團隊嚴格審查的一個結果那現在一個我要請教的意思就是說沒有關係我要問你政策第一個是不做不完了結果是什麼明年不編預算它只是一個訊號是緩編預算還是有是緩編"},{"start":9370.644,"end":9395.211,"text":"還是就不編了不編了我覺得這個都還是要跟人家去講清楚為什麼呢有一些已經在施工階段了他頭已經洗下去了那他要想辦法對不對那第二個呢你們剛通過的啊台南啊人家正在開心啊開心嘛但是你們正在同一時間他準備細色發包最快明年開始動工這新聞媒體寫的那像這種"},{"start":9396.491,"end":9424.747,"text":"你們剛核定正準備細設發包的幾個案子你要跟他講清楚我這樣希望你能夠講清楚說抱歉雖然你還沒有發包我們核定的10月21號的也是只是跟你玩一玩說193億其實是騙你的那你要跟人家講清楚因為地方政府他有他的採組單位主計如果他沒有明確的來源的時候他連辦發包都有問題第三個是有18個案子就像部長說的"},{"start":9426.068,"end":9449.522,"text":"三個還在中規階段15個在可行於研究一次講清楚嘛這都還沒開始的說真的中央地方裁員的問題你是解決不了已經發包跟一些廠商契約的問題你說沒有了不然你沒有辦法取約我跟你講那是沒有辦法去所以我們希望你能夠"},{"start":9451.317,"end":9474.895,"text":"最快的速度把這個事情釐清嘛這個東西讓大家到底未來不補還是還補那工程要怎麼收尾我們工程會在我們交通委員會嘛要怎麼收尾啊有些真的做不下去了嘛你也不要說賭反正他一定可以做下去那不一定那我現在問部長你可以回答的這個鐵道局跟台鐵公司你可以回答的嘛"},{"start":9475.535,"end":9500.964,"text":"好了 財化法地方預算 中央預算兩者之爭結果台鐵公司在明年台鐵公司他要212億就你們一樣大概減了七十幾億減了大概七十億大約大概六七十億變成只給他145億其中包括了什麼呢"},{"start":9502.442,"end":9513.033,"text":"軌道結構安全提升我跟你講你們撿這個如果工程沒做現在誰撿誰要負責行政院長誰要負責軌道結構安全你可以給他撿掉12億"},{"start":9515.045,"end":9537.66,"text":"營業所需車輛維修台鐵公司他提的計畫你把他也減掉12億大概十幾億那這個的部分你要你們砍掉的是什麼這個沒有扯到地方政府喔鐵道局台鐵公司都是你們中央單位了但你當你砍這個的時候你怎麼砍得下去一個是結構軌道結構安全第二個是車輛維修總共砍了25億"},{"start":9540.161,"end":9559.837,"text":"鐵道局你砍了300億包括花東 很多項目啦花東鐵路地下化砍了46億桃園鐵路地下化 還有沒有240億嘛你大概也砍了120億那就問鐵道局你到底做不做啦現在不是問地方政府你們是主責單位 你們是發報單位那個楊局長你來說一下這對你來說是不編了還是緩編"},{"start":9566.898,"end":9581.825,"text":"還是不做就我不要問地方都問你因為這個工程是你你說的你說一下這個我們還是會按照原來的契約進度繼續進行所以錢都會到嗎這個錢的話就是可以按照分年可能我們再做所以都可以所以到時候錢還是會來嗎"},{"start":9582.765,"end":9600.661,"text":"目前我們的基本我跟你講 桃園鐵路地下化你們一方面在國發會在審議要增加700多億另外一方面你現有的1000億裡面你說匡列的預算你都不到位但是你很有信心也謝謝楊局長那我想這個信心應該會傳遞到地方"},{"start":9602.663,"end":9622.298,"text":"主責施工的這個部分到底可不可以繼續來做一個施工我覺得這個部分我們希望行政院長 交通部你要趕快釐清嘛不然有些要發包你錢又不給他根本沒有辦法去發包了那另外一個角度如果你這個事情政策不明朗不清楚的時候"},{"start":9623.439,"end":9640.228,"text":"不用理由我省了五年不用理由就可以弄掉幾十億喔喔 這樣可以啊你要知道當你組織單位的時候地方政府在台鐵地下化當然我們地方想要可是如果這錢弄不清你不給我也不給你嘛現在250億如果未來變成1800億桃園市政府25%他要付450億那大家花par gain我覺得這個部分有些在中央組織有些是地方組織"},{"start":9650.433,"end":9673.684,"text":"你這個東西 你不給我錢 我不給你錢我不希望這種事情發生最後請那個台鐵公司鄭董剛剛已經有委員問過了這個 那為什麼為什麼黃處長 代理處長剛剛有到問完之後就跑掉了是突然有財務危機要回去處理是不是剛剛有沒有到"},{"start":9675.1,"end":9702.707,"text":"他剛剛有沒有到場剛才有剛剛有嗎那怎麼我們會還沒結束是這個是我們朝委主席你他幹嘛跑跑什麼有會不好意思嗎因為我看你們講的都是拍胸脯啊沒有問題啊他幹嘛跑還是什麼財務危機要回去處理他這個財務他是代理的他是他是整個兼的這個處長但是他主要的工作呢是在做這個媒體溝通這一部分"},{"start":9703.047,"end":9729.643,"text":"我跟你講鄭董事長這個事情我是本來是有點生氣但是我現在更多的同情您年紀這麼大還要在這裡為前朝所做的事情遮遮掩掩你從高鐵公司來要借重你的專業來處理這個事情結果近來不到兩個月也被洗成這種可以睜眼說瞎話的我覺得很奇怪"},{"start":9731.324,"end":9757.943,"text":"你們當時去招生啊你們總是要一個要的人才 你們講得對嘛他做新聞沒問題嘛你們當時就要求十年以上的媒體經驗 十年警委來的時候我們當時就接到檢舉嘛 我想說用人是你們的權利 我們也沒有我們覺得他好 那我們也認為你認為他在做委員秘書或者交通部什麼 他也處理新聞算 我們當時一句話都沒有問過"},{"start":9758.864,"end":9761.742,"text":"甚至三個人到台鐵公司 當時不是你"},{"start":9762.887,"end":9791.822,"text":"面試的時候有兩個都是20年媒體經驗而且是大媒體經驗不用就是我們黃先生進來了所以他是處理媒體的這個部分用了10年如果當時你要求一個人才是10年的財快經驗我告訴你大家閉嘴了沒什麼好講的吧所以你們為什麼還要扯什麼東西呢這個人進來就跟財務一點都沒關係他的學歷也是公共政策我們尊重他的專業嘛"},{"start":9792.842,"end":9805.088,"text":"他的公共政策 政府的部分 你為什麼要為他遮遮掩我就請問一下鄭董 再說一下 你高鐵過來高鐵的財快 副總你用的是誰 請說明一下也是這樣子隨便搞的嗎"},{"start":9806.272,"end":9832.842,"text":"現在叫什麼請問一下王維仁副總專門負責他的學經理你說一下好不好你才剛從這個公司來你要怎麼知道台鐵高鐵104年105年都快要倒掉了你們是怎麼救起來我還在感謝你們怎麼救起來在救的階段整個包括土地資產整個處理你們要找專業的甚至有兩位董事長當時劉董范董都還是本身是財怪背景"},{"start":9833.602,"end":9858.358,"text":"結果你們現在你們高鐵要你們的經驗 什麼經驗王 財快的副總專門的他是台大研畢業畢業的他也是一個集團的財務長才轉過來的你怎麼到這邊我們要你帶經驗過來你居然怎麼會這樣 我這樣同情啊這個人是誰任用的"},{"start":9861.54,"end":9881.1,"text":"這個誰認用剛剛喔其實好啦我知道時間到了第一個代理財務處處長整體的薪水當然有增加因為主管家籍增加多少主管家籍增加多少人是一萬一主管家籍增加多少"},{"start":9883.94,"end":9906.914,"text":"講嘛 好嘛 那他整體領到錢 薪水有沒有增加嘛對不對 你們這樣跟部長講說什麼一毛沒有增加 主管家籍啊 都已經領了啊當然有增加 那再來最後一個是你們在這樣的一個用人的一個政策上面我覺得出了大問題鄭董這個人是不是你提拔到財務處處長"},{"start":9909.036,"end":9935.377,"text":"因為我來以前他已經是在那個位置上面了所以很好嘛所以我最後一個結論也是跟部長說啦這個人是誰提拔上來的你一直看台鐵公司你不用看是伍聖元你派他代理那一兩個月他幹出來的就是你的交通部次長他幹出來他那個階段杜威退了就那一個幾個月的關卡他用了這個人到財務處"},{"start":9936.798,"end":9953.43,"text":"我覺得好離譜耶不要忘記台鐵公司化當時三大處理原則第一個就是要處理你們的財務虧損跟危機這個東西我覺得不要開玩笑而且最離譜的是你明明知道這是一個新成立的單位"},{"start":9954.58,"end":9981.356,"text":"對不對到目前為止你們已經公司化一年10個月沒有財務處長上網一次一次都沒有這個企圖我告訴你這是很惡劣的鄭董不是在你剛到一次都沒上網什麼叫做外面沒有人才我上網了內外徵徵不到人找代理我覺得這個邏輯是比較對的我希望趕快廣徵人才就像部長你說的好不好"},{"start":9981.696,"end":9986.822,"text":"委員你這樣說是很正確的我是覺得應該趕快專業的人才進來好謝謝委員好謝謝接下來再請陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":10008.697,"end":10035.003,"text":"好謝謝召委我們有請陳部長來陳部長請部長午安委員好部長今天是我們這個全台軌道建設相關進度的一個專報是那我想宜蘭的所有鄉親這個引頸期盼的兩項重大的軌道建設一個是這個鐵路高架還有另外是高鐵延伸那我想就這兩個議題來請教部長"},{"start":10037.463,"end":10051.399,"text":"那因為這個宜蘭鐵路高架的部分我們目前就是這個綜合規劃 遲遲沒辦法核定那我們比較擔心的是不是會去影響到這個後續的相關期程的一個進展"},{"start":10052.901,"end":10072.262,"text":"那我想在這個8月28號的時候也曾經這個詢問過部長就是針對這個問題那部長當時也有這個回覆我就是會加速來審議那也會爭取在年底前看能不能得到行政院的一個核定那我想這部分"},{"start":10074.484,"end":10092.726,"text":"我們在這個下個月有沒有辦法順利來這個提報行政院那也可以在明年順利的來動工這個有沒有機會好 跟委員報告我是不是請鐵道局長先回答好不好好 謝謝委員那個宜蘭鐵路高架我們在部裡面10月9號已經召開過委員會審查"},{"start":10094.548,"end":10113.119,"text":"原則上是通過了那我們現在正在按照委員會的審查意見進行報告的修正我們會努力在最短的時間裡面把他呈報到交通部裡面來 那部裡面在後續報行政院來做審議 是 好所以我們盡量趕下個月可以報到行政院 下個月"},{"start":10114.5,"end":10129.727,"text":"這部分還是請部長跟局長再幫幫忙這個進度我們會抓另外高鐵延伸的部分高鐵延伸也一樣在現階段應該是在綜合規劃我想請教的是綜合規劃審議還有縣府所提報的相關高鐵特區的規劃是不是已經順利在推進當中"},{"start":10139.228,"end":10155.548,"text":"也跟委員報告就是高鐵延伸宜蘭除了環評二結已經在8月份得到環境部的通過之外那綜合規劃報告部裡面其實在7月份就已經召開過審查會議我們最近已經在報這個中規報告到部裡面希望能夠轉成行政院"},{"start":10156.168,"end":10174.355,"text":"是好所以這也都在這個期程當中都在期程當中那就拜託部長跟局長那另外就是我們這個鐵道的相關觀光的一個推動這個部分我想請教就是我們現在宜蘭線內還有22個這個台鐵的車站"},{"start":10178.197,"end":10199.414,"text":"那這個車站我們在未來鐵路高架之後扣除這個高架之後的這個車站往外推的話應該還有16座那這16座的這個車站相關的這個硬體設備有沒有安排期程來做這個整新這個台鐵公司有做這方面的規劃嗎是"},{"start":10208.05,"end":10231.949,"text":"那我們在這個站體的這個美學改造方面是有一個順序的那我們現在目前已經完成了改善的站體的話有羅東還有這個二節還有我們五漁村的五個車站的站體的粉刷都已經完成那另外大理站的這個無障礙跟動線也都完成那"},{"start":10233.92,"end":10257.129,"text":"現在目前在積極改善中的有四層站的站體的粉刷項目還有大里大溪外澳及頂埔月台的這個雨雨棚的這個雨遮雨遮的部分也都在這個改善中大概是是這樣好那我還是提醒董事長因為早期所建置的這些車站"},{"start":10258.65,"end":10264.508,"text":"以現在的這個觀點來看有一點不服實用有一些車站裡面沒有廁所"},{"start":10266.228,"end":10287.781,"text":"有一些車站當然剛剛董事長您也說了我們的一些動線可能已經在改善當中包括建置那個升降梯或是無障礙空間等等那這個都是希望說我們鐵道局這邊我們台鐵公司可以陸陸續續來做這個相關的改善以便捷民眾的這個"},{"start":10289.562,"end":10306.914,"text":"方向跟目標來做調整那因為現在看起來這些場站裡面有一些我們這個包括雨遮還有一些後車的空間等等都跟現在比較新型態的這個車站都"},{"start":10309.054,"end":10333.813,"text":"完全不一樣啦所以我還是希望說我們是不是可以循序漸進針對這些場戰來做這個相關空間的改善是的我們會按照剛才這個委員所提的幾個大方向那麼來研究改善好這董事長這再拜託你那另外最後一個問題我想請教因為在宜蘭這邊我們有這個海豐號可是海豐號在11月9號之後"},{"start":10335.555,"end":10350.755,"text":"這個因為氣候的因素他就要往這個新竹跟台中方向去移動那這一段期間變成宜蘭這邊的這個觀光列車就沒有了那我們這個台鐵公司這邊有沒有規劃其他的這個觀光列車的"},{"start":10351.095,"end":10376.769,"text":"跟委員報告我們是想說把這個明日號 明除號那目前並沒有在這個宜蘭這邊境內我們想打算來跟研究加靠大理或者也礁溪這兩個非常重要的景點好 這我們期待啦就拜託董事長好 謝謝局長 謝謝局長好 謝謝接下來請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":10388.986,"end":10395.291,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長好 陳部長請委員好 還有那個台鐵董事長 鄧董事長請抱歉 我還在喘說喘著 好好 謝謝部長那個"},{"start":10418.908,"end":10435.883,"text":"台鐵在我們空中奉承 上一次有講到2026年除馬的年終啦 年終車站一樓那邊會先啟用 觀光便當工廠這樣然後之後後續分區再陸續做規劃這個沒問題啦"},{"start":10440.649,"end":10467.302,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個已經過去跟設計師過去那個探勘過了我們會按照這個期程希望在明年六月以前能夠完成一樓能夠來營業謝謝我是再侃奉一次啦因為怕那個董事長如果時間沒有掌握好再拖到時間特別提醒董事長那也請部長一起關心好這個都在進度上我們會努力"},{"start":10467.677,"end":10492.052,"text":"那另外就是說當然二三樓的規劃我是希望說可以盡量快一點因為就是要比照最壓性幹線要自己經營那開始有一些不一樣的概念所以就是說其他的地方創生活動跟鐵道物管等等那部長您可以看左邊這張圖是"},{"start":10495.552,"end":10520.79,"text":"這張圖是跟那個董事長這張圖是那個我們高雄那個Black Pin那全部你看我們本來是六大景點就把它變成粉紅色或是粉色系列的點亮然後那個中鋼人家也很主動你們高雄點亮這個粉色系列我們也來點亮"},{"start":10522.403,"end":10550.58,"text":"那我就看到說 那我們鳳山車站以前曾經有這樣子一個可以點亮的那個但是那時候卻沒有亮這一次沒有 這一次沒有意思是這一次沒有加入 對那我要提醒的就是說現在 我們已經改名了嘛 對不對不是 公司化 但是還沒民營是國營公司化啦 就是開始要有那個民營的概念嘛"},{"start":10551.584,"end":10564.898,"text":"然後就跟那個應變要快嘛所以就是說這個城市的訊息其實有時候我們主動去match不一定要單人來跟我們通知說你們鳳山車站要點粉紅系列的嗎我們自己就要想到了"},{"start":10573.168,"end":10601.869,"text":"我們這次有配合的是高雄車站高雄車站有配合對啦我的意思就是說是不是像這個這是他們拜託我們配合我們當然會配合對跟委員報告就是說這個系列這個系列的活動是高雄市政府主動提出來那跟台鐵也有接洽當時他們提出來就是高雄車站所以我們高雄車站就配合我知道我的意思是說那我們可不可以主動一點說我們鳳山車站也配合"},{"start":10603.627,"end":10625.988,"text":"部長了解我意思嗎 了解了解就說有時候我們如果站在公務員的心態就是說我們現在公司化開始那個思考點要開始慢慢的更活化那就是說我們本來只有高雄車站他們希望變成pink的系列那我在高雄還有豐山車站站得這麼漂亮"},{"start":10627.413,"end":10654.705,"text":"現在大家都在質疑說都還沒營運是不是我們也會替豐山車站也宣傳一下啊我剛剛這張圖部長你看這張圖跟董事長這張圖是我們本來就有的我們其實只要說你在跟我講高雄車站的時候我跟你說我豐山車站一起它就六大地標變成七大地標那對豐山車站的宣傳會不會有幫助"},{"start":10656.789,"end":10684.767,"text":"我就講說這個軌道經濟其實是我們變成化被動為主動就是說在我高雄車站周遭的商圈周遭的運輸系統周遭的旅宿景點美食等等的就變成說我高雄車站用這個角度去這叫軌道經濟嘛我可以活化車站周遭的做一個套裝的行程"},{"start":10685.916,"end":10713.688,"text":"那這樣子你那個生意才做得起來這次高雄車站也沒有飆出去啊那就是說我們那宿客就是都沒錢拿去做一個結合那包括鳳山車站也一樣我一直跟 那次也跟董事長報告就是說我們鳳山車站離我們的鳳山捷運站那一塊路啦走路也要一段時間啦但是你如果把那個"},{"start":10715.305,"end":10744.302,"text":"我整個從鳳山車站走曹公路 走曹公廟 走曹公郡 走中華商圈就到捷運了你現在如果用一個套裝行程或是做一個文化步道對不對這個就是附近一起帶動包括曹公郡那邊我們也在那邊辦假日市集嘛中華商圈這裡我們也會辦山圈活動也就是說我們本來在台鐵的角度就是說"},{"start":10745.273,"end":10766.786,"text":"我就是我 白人就是白人現在就說我跟白人 要怎麼臨座會 大家坐在旁邊所以我是再跟部長跟那個董事長再拜託一下就是說這個角度應該是可以去做一個改變就像那個日本我們看那個日本無人車站那個化身民宿"},{"start":10772.614,"end":10788.293,"text":"其實我之前也提過就是說鐵道秘境跟六都風華我整個六都六都要怎麼樣去加強我六都的一個商圈的軌道經濟的結合那因為我台鐵升到很多比較鄉村的地方"},{"start":10788.994,"end":10809.529,"text":"很多鄉村的地方有可能它多人或是車頭,現在就比較落寞或是比較舊,但是其實它可以結合一些景點,然後結合民宿,變身變成一個景點的一個旅宿的所在。類似那個社會住宅,社會住宅就是政府處理公辦的租屋比較便宜,"},{"start":10812.506,"end":10826.699,"text":"這樣年輕人才有大腿嘛你如果是所有這些鐵道秘境所有的台鐵道的車站如果有機會可以的正好也可以附近的景點配合得上我就可能做這樣子的規劃不是有一種活化嗎我不知道部長對這個觀念"},{"start":10832.56,"end":10858.632,"text":"能不能接受委員這個觀點很好但是台鐵現在剛公司花一年多的時間我們當然是優先先處理安全的部分還有服務的部分那另外針對行銷的跟資產活化等等這方面確實是要更加強那我們未來也期望台鐵公司可以補充這方面的人才因為過去的台鐵在台鐵局的時代是不會有這個想法"},{"start":10859.372,"end":10886.97,"text":"那現在公司化之後確實是有一些比較餘裕的空間可以爭取這方面的人才進到公司來來協助這方面的規劃所以現在其實台鐵也有一個多角化經營的部門嗎是 我們是有一個附屬事業的部門還有另外一個資產開發的部門附屬事業跟資產開發對那附屬事業就是我講的就是要多角化對不對我們現在主要還是以便當這個"},{"start":10888.331,"end":10911.662,"text":"的為主著那去做這方面的當然不排除做其他的多角化首先便當我們還是肯定啦便當事實上台鐵便當是現在做得還不錯那也謝謝就是台鐵便當的觀光工廠決定住竹鳳山這個我們也感謝那我的想法就是說其實"},{"start":10912.682,"end":10938.594,"text":"以整個鐵道其實上就是我剛提到的六都風法結合六都的景點鐵道秘境創造我們自己鐵路的秘境好的景點事實上這個思考可以多一點這樣子不要等到安全那個是最重要但是不是什麼事情我等到安全全部做好以後再做下一樣現在那個平行處理很強應該要同步進行在這一方面多做加強"},{"start":10940.063,"end":10952.497,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝那我再強調一次第一剛才講了明年年終啦那個時間我希望說那個部長跟董事長可以把它keep好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請陳雪森委員質詢"},{"start":10993.069,"end":11012.123,"text":"政委員好辛苦了我在交通委員會十幾年了我大概讚美你是讚美最多的"},{"start":11013.973,"end":11039.972,"text":"從你在立榮當總經理總市長一直到現在到高鐵那這次你從高鐵掉到台鐵來我不曉得是我們哪個長官沒電了嗎把你調過來對不起部長不是講你不知道誰沒電了把你調到台鐵來可能是你在高鐵的表現太好了轉虧為盈我們在公司化整個過程"},{"start":11041.004,"end":11064.863,"text":"你這邊當總經理嘛是不是後來董事長這個過程我都歷歷在目看在眼裡因為我在交通委員會非常久了那你去台鐵當然你表現很好可能給你更重要的任務我想我們這個年紀能夠替國家社會做點事也是很光榮的一件事情所以我一直勉勵你就是鼓勵你"},{"start":11066.564,"end":11093.912,"text":"這個不要因為薪水多少錢多少而妨害了你的心境你過來以後我發現有人跟我反映說高鐵的便當不如台鐵高鐵的便當他的商務商不如台鐵部長你回去好好檢討一下好不好高鐵那麼高的票價如果便當輸給台鐵的話未免也太丟臉了嘛對不對這個注意一下好不好"},{"start":11094.827,"end":11114.586,"text":"另外台鐵你上任以後敬老措施我看了日本很多的影片他們敬老非常的好銀髮族很多現在高齡社會坐火車去玩去哪裡我覺得董事長你可以跟觀光署"},{"start":11115.649,"end":11141.021,"text":"各縣市政府尤其花蓮台東縣政府可以合作推出這樣的列車定位每一站每一站每一站你們把這些老人還有小朋友親子活動帶去玩然後從那邊再帶回來你一站一站的每一個列車我想都會客滿你不但可以對這些老人對這些家庭的活動有些注意而且對台鐵的收益"},{"start":11142.452,"end":11169.565,"text":"那可以說也是一個幫助所以台鐵我希望你去那邊以後業務蒸蒸日上當然台鐵跟公路總局機必成科很多去的人這不是一個好位置去的人責任負擔很重我想我在交通委員會特別跟您勉勵我們共勉好不好謝謝委員的勉勵我也全力以赴"},{"start":11170.27,"end":11195.576,"text":"你要加油了好不好那你的便當尤其希望更精進 我在交通委員會每次中午吃飯你問那個後面的小姐吃飯那個如果不是台鐵便當我都搖搖頭我就走了我沒興趣所以我也拜託主任秘書這邊交通委員會主任秘書都供一些台鐵便當我們交通委員會你看所有那麼多單位都沒有單位提供便當的"},{"start":11197.407,"end":11209.785,"text":"連我們召委你看都點頭成事是不是台鐵便當一個禮拜起碼兩次好不好我們也給鄭董免利好不好謝謝委員給我們的加油鄭董你請回我請召委拜託交通部陳部長"},{"start":11220.846,"end":11243.948,"text":"謝謝部長昨天是總諮詢是馬祖大橋啊我想你也聽到了嘛有我昨天站在院長旁邊你講說公文給我我到現在回去查還沒收到你說他360億是那360億就360億那院長也講了那既然如果是360億的話那就360億嘛那你也看到360億的公文嗎"},{"start":11245.314,"end":11271.211,"text":"公文我沒看到但是他們給我的資料是這樣子的數字沒關係啦 這個不重要那主要就是編列預算編列預算啦我在台北市是負責編列預算的審查預算的我對預算非常了解他編預算 上預算的過程有過程的 有程序的院長也講了 既然技術沒問題 經費沒問題那麼就開始編列預算嘛"},{"start":11274.4,"end":11288.865,"text":"那編列預算你要先開會啊今天公路總局局長沒有來啦今天是台鐵的巡達嘛那你回去告訴一下公路總局好不好我們從下個月開始請他"},{"start":11290.163,"end":11309.801,"text":"起碼就因為院長到昨天為止沒有講說不行喔準備要上預算了因為已經7年了未免也太長了一點了對已經7年了可是這個要等院合定他們的合定還沒下來合定合定嘛你們存繼續走啊你們一團死水的嗎共同擺在那個地方擺了8年100年啊"},{"start":11312.708,"end":11337.31,"text":"你不要連那個什麼秦始皇的墓最後被找出來你們還沒搞出來啊進度都有在走啊但是就是現在在等最後核定那你弄嘛到底怎樣嘛是不是你說陳學生委員在追啊好我希望你們下個月開始不管有沒有核定每個月召集一次會議我想我去參加不太方便你們按照程序歷史關係找行政院找"},{"start":11338.442,"end":11359.213,"text":"不是行政院 交通部這邊找林鄉縣政府每個月開一次匯報 好不好 每次開一次匯報到明年四月份 把它訂出一個方案來然後因為明年的預算是今年上 後年預算是明年上那明年上預算之前你們一定內部有個討論"},{"start":11361.075,"end":11389.063,"text":"有個決定嘛 行政院有個程序嘛是不是 行政院程序批了以後你們才上得了預算不然你上不了預算嘛 對不對現在是沒有辦法上預算 對所以我是說你從現在開始 已經十月份時間也不多喔 禮拜五很長喔現在十月 過去就十一月了十一月 十二月 一月 二月 三月五個月時間把這個事情搞定搞定以後咧要簽給大院 行政院"},{"start":11390.759,"end":11416.866,"text":"給時間核定以後你四月份我們主計人員才能夠把這個預算編進去才能上預算那你要整編嘛然後七八月份預算送到立法院來審議我一定要看到我沒看到的話說真的我已經發怒了我昨天講了我已經按耐我一直按耐我不是沒有脾氣的人你們可能看我陳雲仁沒有脾氣好欺負"},{"start":11417.967,"end":11446.895,"text":"不要這樣嘛不會啦 沒有人敢欺負你這樣不好好不好不會不會然後或是有些錢我常常聽到說給綠不給藍我希望沒有這個事啦不好啦我們聯江其實也幫很多忙委員應該都知道我其他有一些預算你看你現在即使財化法給我錢我還是不夠嘛還是不夠嘛你7億多你給我22億好了我多17億不夠一般補助款跟跟那個計畫型的補助嘛"},{"start":11447.645,"end":11476.397,"text":"你拿到一些錢擺在那邊爛尾樓嗎不可能所以我想部長你了然於衷這個錢不夠的補助款跟計畫型的一些補助款你還是要補足給我們好不好我會看到時候主總他的原則主計總署他的原則他給的原則給我們之後該協助連江該協助馬祖我們一定會全力來協助金門110億澎湖7 80億馬祖22億他們吃得油油的我們沒有"},{"start":11477.728,"end":11506.103,"text":"然後這個修法提案是我提出來我是忍辱負重把離島的問題2.5%的問題把它解決把這問題解決雖然300多億才化法剩下300多億那其中有220億是金馬鵬的那臺灣的部分剩下100多億那我不管他你把分子分母的問題把它解決以後其他的臺灣平均怎麼分別按照程序去處理"},{"start":11507.625,"end":11533.433,"text":"那我们不够的部分请部长你告诉所属单位没有什么给绿不给蓝的如果这样我会发怒好不好不好也会影响到我们蓝军对省预算的态度我们有足够的经费的时候对于地方政府能够协助的我们的态度都会尽量来协助你不能房子盖了一半你不给钱所以以前是地方政府要回馈10%现在是40%"},{"start":11536.03,"end":11562.993,"text":"40%我們哪有這個錢所以部長你答應我就是這個麻煩大家的事情下個月開始啟動院長昨天講的很清楚了我想你也聽到了對啦啟動開會這個沒問題要開會但是你說要編預算我們要等到沒有你要開會開會沒問題開會你開會怎麼樣我要知道我們就一個月好不好你開會讓我知道好不好好沒問題我們找聯交縣政府一起來開會因為我們那個抓委規定很嚴格"},{"start":11564.199,"end":11589.871,"text":"沒超過30秒就按鈴一次這個交通委員會從來沒這樣我當召委都讓他多講10分鐘可以多講他就不讓我講了後面兩個委員在看好了 後面何市長在催了 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝陳雪生委員我們也是一視同仁感謝來 接下來再請何新淳委員質詢"},{"start":11595.731,"end":11598.815,"text":"好 謝謝洪門凱召委 我們請部長來 陳部長請"},{"start":11608.452,"end":11624.56,"text":"部長好在進入今天的這個專欄報告的主題之前我還是很關心這個未來台中市的一個大眾運輸系統那牽涉到的是當然最重要的是捷運那捷運現在綠線"},{"start":11627.261,"end":11648.558,"text":"營運中藍線要動工那還有的是藍線要延伸到屯區太平那一段我記得在上一屆考察的時候上一個部長李孟彥理部長曾經承諾藍線延伸到屯區太平的這一段希望跟現行的藍線能夠並岸"},{"start":11651.44,"end":11676.338,"text":"然後分階段施工這個部分我想部長也一定會支持因為我知道這個要先由台中市政府提出它的規劃那我記得台中市政府有提出我只是希望部長 交通部這邊可以允諾能夠加快速度來協助第二個是局限局限現在的進度如何"},{"start":11678.529,"end":11699.71,"text":"局長局縣部裡面其實已經轉成到行政院那現在是在補一個促參的審查程序當中那需要多久的時間以你的經驗這個不會很久因為促參審查目前這些軌道建設案子來看的話通常都沒有這樣子的一個可能性"},{"start":11701.261,"end":11727.968,"text":"沒有什麼樣的可能性就是民間參與不會有促餐的問題但是他們還是要我們補這個跟他講說不會發生OK 好 要講清楚這個滿快的要講清楚這個話要講清楚那我們希望中央要全力協助因為菊縣它還有往北我們希望延伸到清水還有我們希望從崇德那一邊延伸成一條紅線進豐原"},{"start":11730.129,"end":11757.121,"text":"那他往南是到霧峰也是屯區那甚至南投也希望能夠延伸到南投草屯之類那這個東西當然是要一步一步但是我希望的中央都能夠協助進度可以快一點有效率不要讓地方政府都認為說中央在卡地方部長這個你應該可以承諾答應中央從來不會去卡地方"},{"start":11757.401,"end":11772.081,"text":"好 所以希望未來如果是我主政中央一定要盡全力來協助那我地方也會跟中央好好配合用最快的速度是 那接下來我就要談今天的主題這個車站的一個安全管理問題我想"},{"start":11774.743,"end":11799.392,"text":"竹北台中火車站都有所謂的遊民的問題那遊民當然是需要好好的來處理而且必須跟地方政府 社政單位好好的合作那這是一個問題那台北車站曾經爆發過這個砍人案那這個是一般的旅客某個男生持刀攻擊那這樣子的一個暴力事件"},{"start":11800.752,"end":11829.665,"text":"讓我們對車站的安全管理真的是有疑慮所以這不僅也是影響到旅客包括台鐵自己員工的安全這也就是今天為什麼召我來安排這一個專案報告也是希望部長跟我們台鐵在各個各地的一個車站的安全管理的部分可以再更加強那如何強化夏業我想除了剛剛那兩個例子也曾經發生公然性侵酒醉"},{"start":11832.006,"end":11854.445,"text":"這樣子的一個不幸事件那包括我們基隆站曾經發生過站務員長期遭騷擾遭遊民騷擾那台鐵工會基於為自己的權益跟安全曾經提報甚至希望交通部台鐵這邊能夠加強如何強化管理那這個部分部長雖然我有看到你們的簡報就是你們的這個"},{"start":11859.149,"end":11874.236,"text":"這個會議的這個回應但是我還是希望你能夠再告訴我說我們如何的可以來預先防止甚至能夠周全的保護保障旅客跟我們台鐵員工的一個人身安全的問題"},{"start":11875.536,"end":11902.859,"text":"是 報告委員當然跟鐵路警察的合作我們當然要更密切啦那也一直拜託他們能夠協助那另外針對保全的人力我們也會開始來盤點我們現在保全的人力保全的制度是如何我們現在有保全的人力只有在台北車站有高雄車站很像也有高雄車站也有台北跟高雄其他都沒有對 其他的目前是還沒來 不然請董事長請董事長來回答"},{"start":11904.318,"end":11919.128,"text":"各位報告我們目前的保全是人力是很少的只有台北跟高雄還有另外一個寧若那邊有一個小車站寧若小車站因為沒有人沒有車站沒有人所以我們派了一個"},{"start":11920.729,"end":11936.784,"text":"下午的時候還有一個保全在那邊出入所以這個保全我們幾乎是很少人那我們現在以台北站這一次有打算加強嗎有打算再跟保全公司簽合作簽契約再加強人力嗎"},{"start":11937.324,"end":11960.06,"text":"有的我們在台北站就是這樣目前我們在11月以後我想我們先比台北站這個來做那其他的車站那麼人力這個旅客眾多的部分的話我們也會思考那是不是有增加這個保全的能力董事長這樣子的回答其實我不滿意不要用思考兩個字而是要好好的趕快進行評估"},{"start":11961.314,"end":11965.548,"text":"如何調整目前已經在盤點當中也在評估當中而且我覺得不應該只有臺北"},{"start":11968.069,"end":11995.308,"text":"台北車站當然是我們的首都是我們的門面人流量大但是其他車站的安全也很重要以台中車站來講我們地方反映很多次包括台中市的議員也在議會裡面希望地方政府的設政單位或者是警政單位可以跟我們車站合作台鐵合作好好的管理因為台中火車站這個大車站計畫"},{"start":11997.389,"end":12003.898,"text":"中央支持了 我們蓋得這麼漂亮了但是呢 圍管的人力嚴重不足啊"},{"start":12005.003,"end":12029.333,"text":"所以常常發生不管是由民皆有的亂象或者是我們剛剛講的安全的問題這是一個開放性的空間四面八方都有可能進來不確定因素不安全的份子那你跟我說我們有鐵路警察沒錯但是我剛剛聽到有其他委員在質詢這件事的時候"},{"start":12030.785,"end":12052.67,"text":"部長也說要跟內政部警政署那邊溝通他們的鐵路警察的人力編制也嚴重的不足那如果以我們正規的鐵路警察的人力就編制不足那還要跟警政署討論那我們自己現在可以做的就是自己台鐵公司裡面如何在保全這個區塊來強化"},{"start":12056.876,"end":12078.356,"text":"我覺得這個不是只有台北需要台中也很需要我們跟地方政府有沒有合作過台中我們也很熟悉但是管轄的範圍其實我覺得大家要稍微釐清一下在站體裡面當然就是台鐵公司這個沒有問題但是我們所看到的整個台中車站大部分的外圍的管理單位其實是台中市政府"},{"start":12079.136,"end":12086.801,"text":"包含環保的部分 包含社政的部分包含治安的部分其實我們都會跟台中市政府你們現在有固定的一個聯繫會議來討論這件事嗎"},{"start":12090.677,"end":12119.491,"text":"台中站現在目前是沒有的是嘛我會建議兩項一項就剛剛董事長提到的保全人員的徵聘那保全公司的這個所謂的治安維護計畫的強化這個我覺得台鐵公司現在馬上就可以做得到而且希望不只是台北車站也不是只有高雄車站我希望像台中這個也是一級的大站"},{"start":12120.191,"end":12131.177,"text":"我覺得這是要盤點也一定要做的這第一個建議也希望部長你應該是OK承諾台鐵公司可以做嗎 董事長因為他們現在正在盤點當中台中要做嗎要不要納入規劃我們來評估"},{"start":12136.089,"end":12163.599,"text":"拜託納入評估跟規劃好不好好這第一件事第二件事情我建議我們台鐵公司主動是不是跟地方政府能夠有一個橫向的聯繫的一個專案也好小組也好會議也好就是要有一個機制我們自己車站站體內我們如何管理那站體外如部長所講的是屬於地方政府"},{"start":12163.999,"end":12172.043,"text":"我們又該跟社政環保相關的單位如何大家一起合作我們希望能夠在"},{"start":12173.956,"end":12195.434,"text":"安全人權的考量之下能夠解決跟改善好不好各位委員報告我剛才澄清一下台中車站這邊我們在每一個禮拜的禮拜一到禮拜五就清潔的部分我們就跟台中市政府有一個合作在討論清潔的部分"},{"start":12196.034,"end":12202.556,"text":"但是在這個遊民這一部分我們現在也臨時有必要的時候我們召開一個臨時會議那麼來處理這個問題我建議主動啦我覺得這個是一個很專業的問題它是一個社政單位的一個專業的一個問題希望能夠跟台鐵合作我們再強調一次在安全跟人權跟大家的權益的考量之下能夠找出一個方法"},{"start":12225.443,"end":12246.797,"text":"來好好管理跟改善啦不然我常常聽到有跟我講說台中飛車頭去到這裡是國際級的怎麼呢這個周遭的環境呢卻是讓人家覺得好像不符合一個國際城市該有的一個面貌我們會跟台中市政府加強聯繫好所以再拜託好不好好 以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12252.677,"end":12269.187,"text":"好 接下來再請李博義委員接受鐵道局長鐵道局長局長請你好"},{"start":12279.952,"end":12299.262,"text":"謝謝 局長我最關心的幾件事情趕快快速的講一下高鐵聯通道 聯通高雄捷運的聯通道上週使者董事長來這裡說可能要明年才能動工那這些經費的問題請問一下交通部現在可以解決這個經費的問題嗎"},{"start":12301.69,"end":12328.665,"text":"我跟董事長有做過溝通我想經費應該不會是執行這個案子的障礙很好 謝謝第二個台鐵立體化在我高雄從這個左營站新左營站到橋頭這一區一共接近12公里那目前有那個TSMC跟橋頭湯廠的問題那我們會增加兩站包含青浦站跟TSMC"},{"start":12330.405,"end":12358.615,"text":"請問一下我們這個可行性評估通過之後接下來的程序鐵道局這邊可行性研究如果奉行那邊核定就會由鐵道局接續辦理綜合規劃好接下來最重要捷運子線的可行性評估那現在已經到因為捷運子線還是這一任內最重要最重要的工作我想要請部長上來一下"},{"start":12365.802,"end":12390.695,"text":"部長我剛剛講的台鐵跟高雄捷運的連通道然後還有台鐵的這個立體化那接下來捷運子線其實都需要交通部的支持那捷運子線它從TSMC高鐵橋頭科學園區還有高雄的幾所大學還有包含這個醫學中心可以整個連接起來那目前因為這個"},{"start":12393.076,"end":12413.248,"text":"因為這個高雄市政府他還在做這些可行性的評估那我們希望昨天我們交通部有開初審會議我們希望可以跟台南一樣可以趕快來核定好 我們會趕快來雖然這個財化法讓地方政府多了很多經費但是對於高雄市來講"},{"start":12414.289,"end":12434.185,"text":"要用這個分配的比例來完成捷運直線是非常非常困難的那希望部長在上次回應的時候有講到我們會依據這個國家整體分布的狀況國家整體發展的狀況那我們可以對高雄有多一點點的支持"},{"start":12435.046,"end":12460.544,"text":"是跟委員報告只限的部分我們全力來趕昨天已經召開初審會議了後面的會議我們會盡量協助地方政府速度加快那第二呢針對捷運未來的發展我覺得有可能會針對整體的預算去做調整因為財化法的這個因應那我們會針對幾個原則財化法對高雄市很不公平的所以對於財政級距比較"},{"start":12461.084,"end":12483.654,"text":"落後的縣市我們的補助就會多一點這一方面 二方面是針對過去政府曾經補助過捷運建設的比較少的我們也會希望多一點那高雄也是相對捷運還不算前面比較算落後的這個縣市所以我們的補助也應該會相對多一些對 我們需要錄網最後一個問題那BREADPIN在上個禮拜在高雄"},{"start":12485.171,"end":12494.109,"text":"高雄的這個私運組團管站其實在去年高雄市政府捷運局就有跟鐵道局跟交通部來申請就是我們的這個"},{"start":12496.401,"end":12520.314,"text":"炸藍 炸門的部分那從R17到R24你可以想像4萬人那可能有一半以上的人必須要搭乘捷運那個管控是非常嚴重的那在昨天又發生了一個在都會公園站它有一個落軌的事件然後希望交通部可以趕快來審慎來評估這一個補助能不能趕快讓高雄的這個捷運的這個炸門"},{"start":12521.374,"end":12538.693,"text":"是 跟委員報告過去是沒有這樣子的補助案例但是我們可以跟高雄市政府大家來討論看看我也請鐵道局研議看看有沒有這樣的可能性我們在後續來研究好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝好 接下來請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12555.76,"end":12581.486,"text":"主席有請部長好 陳部長請謝謝部長好首先先謝謝我們鐵路集在這次這個馬太安溪淹塞浮潰壩造成這個非常大的災情這個台鐵這個主動"},{"start":12584.103,"end":12608.291,"text":"這個提供這個進站證明因為人太多了就是到各個出站以後再去去去購票所以這個部分是要特別謝謝尤其是在這段時間這麼多人這麼多的志工都可以這個相關的這些新治強號比如馬號都可以提供站票的服務"},{"start":12609.335,"end":12638.111,"text":"包括當然這個有的都站到這個台北都有所以這個部分是要先謝謝我們台鐵我們看接下來之所以之所以台鐵能夠繼續運作而沒有像買馬太安溪的公路橋樑這樣子就是因為這個光復隧道台鐵河底"},{"start":12639.673,"end":12659.348,"text":"光復川越馬太安溪下方的一個河底隧道所以真的是要敬佩當時的是44年前1981年啟用的單線的隧道那時候開始了而在2013年這個"},{"start":12662.315,"end":12690.203,"text":"改為雙軌的隧道這個雙軌的隧道是另外開的不在這個1981年的那個部分對我知道所以這個部分是現在有兩個隧道在那裡對所以1981年的單線的隧道是目前是沒有在使用中是沒錯談這個部分最主要也就是馬太安溪橋"},{"start":12694.442,"end":12718.923,"text":"這個橋已經被沖毀了然後現在跟這個河底幾乎是沒有多大的這個落差所以這樣的一個情形之下這個上次我這個陪同院長去這個聽起你們這個公路總局的簡報的時候是你們有另外一個方案"},{"start":12720.664,"end":12750.204,"text":"這個部分這個也提供給交通部公路總局去參考這個是河底隧道的公路隧道的可行性這個應該列為一個很重要的一個評估所以這個部分是一個請這個交通部部長跟公路總局的專業人員當然可以跟這個鐵路局"},{"start":12751.267,"end":12775.937,"text":"到底他那個198幾年那個44年前蓋的那個是不是還可以用所以這個部分都一併去這個善用相關的這些資源好我們看這個宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫本席多次質詢部長還有這個鐵路局這個我也質詢過"},{"start":12781.016,"end":12807.688,"text":"這個我們國發會國發會這個在8月7號也質詢了國發會的主委要趕快審議報行政院有關華東地區鐵路設置安全改善計畫這個就是因為0403大地震造成從得到核冷這一段所造成的所以這個部分部長知道進度嗎"},{"start":12809.037,"end":12837.539,"text":"跟委員報告 這個進度是不是 我有台鐵公司來這邊說明好不好 但是整個安全設施改善我們陸續都在做整體的計畫即便是還沒過 但是設施改善的部分我們一直都在做明天明天國發會要審議我是不是請陳副總跟您 我來說明明天國發會要審議 明天要大會所以可以入籍"},{"start":12838.77,"end":12856.747,"text":"鐵道級你們要做最好的準備跟說明讓相關的部會不要再有意見就趕快報行政院是 我們也希望可以趕快過這麼小的一個路段這要花那麼久啊04 03到現在對不對"},{"start":12861.059,"end":12879.788,"text":"這太久了吧真的是非常我常常舉這個例子部長你已經聽了很多次我常常舉北迴鐵路對不對1973年因為也是因為颱風然後就當時的省主席就報行政院"},{"start":12881.534,"end":12903.941,"text":"6年就完工了 79.2公里 然後16座隧道而且是這些隧道都是用人工挖的人工挖的 都是農民跟原住民去挖掘這個隧道的所以這個部分要請這個交通部 要請鐵路局 鐵道局"},{"start":12905.306,"end":12924.784,"text":"明天一定要跟國發會跟相關的部會好好的他們還有意見要把他說服了趕快報行政院明天總經理會到現場去跟他們報告最後這個主席站起來了這個花東第七鐵路雙軌電氣化的計畫"},{"start":12928.279,"end":12954.212,"text":"這個也是很久了一直在修正一直在修正如果是修正的更好那當然沒有關係但是這個要加速已經核定很久了報告委員這個施工中我知道一直都在做我知道只不過我們要再修訂修正計畫是預算有增加然後那個工期的部分這個我都了解我都有過期我的意思說你們現在課由行政院審議中也是要協調啊"},{"start":12955.813,"end":12978.661,"text":"會啦 我們會去協調 但是對於施工沒有任何對的我知道所以我的意思不要影響 包括這個南迴鐵路線型改善及平井路段的雙軌化這個部分也是在行政審議中也是要做最好的說明去說服好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝"},{"start":12985.381,"end":13002.034,"text":"好蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員不在黃國昌委員請咨詢謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部部長台鐵的董事長陳部長鄭董事長請委員好"},{"start":13018.676,"end":13042.215,"text":"委員好部長好 董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議"},{"start":13044.963,"end":13065.756,"text":"然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候"},{"start":13066.696,"end":13089.219,"text":"那你們 你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後 昨天吧應該是昨天 我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來"},{"start":13090.353,"end":13118.298,"text":"我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議"},{"start":13119.628,"end":13143.201,"text":"後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴"},{"start":13144.221,"end":13149.146,"text":"我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續延續"},{"start":13160.859,"end":13175.906,"text":"那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢這個台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研議中在研究中那到了6月25號"},{"start":13176.946,"end":13205.565,"text":"我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告"},{"start":13207.106,"end":13227.495,"text":"大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源"},{"start":13229.192,"end":13256.406,"text":"那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是"},{"start":13257.745,"end":13267.924,"text":"有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個惡質的廠商標到桃園三行下"},{"start":13269.336,"end":13293.671,"text":"那當然啦 他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後 果不其然爛得不得了一樣不能用 一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了"},{"start":13294.588,"end":13323.757,"text":"那除了很嚴重的以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二值的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛"},{"start":13324.52,"end":13336.21,"text":"那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂"},{"start":13336.892,"end":13365.065,"text":"報告委員該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯但我覺得這件事情第一淘擠要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係那個請部長回去只是淘擠的順便回覆我好不好好沒問題第一個"},{"start":13365.965,"end":13391.893,"text":"對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂"},{"start":13393.001,"end":13415.256,"text":"我看不懂 我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天 給我一分鐘就好了 召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那天我去台積中開會"},{"start":13416.792,"end":13437.346,"text":"我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然"},{"start":13438.482,"end":13461.93,"text":"前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說"},{"start":13464.265,"end":13484.524,"text":"是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來 部長看一下數字它的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件"},{"start":13491.124,"end":13518.651,"text":"不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的"},{"start":13519.966,"end":13542.016,"text":"其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較"},{"start":13543.581,"end":13557.481,"text":"也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然"},{"start":13559.099,"end":13573.159,"text":"這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了"},{"start":13574.368,"end":13593.077,"text":"強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了 相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會"},{"start":13594.895,"end":13622.672,"text":"去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局"},{"start":13623.853,"end":13648.586,"text":"開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車"},{"start":13649.506,"end":13678.539,"text":"對 後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我之前開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道那目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善"},{"start":13679.599,"end":13699.106,"text":"部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及"},{"start":13700.441,"end":13710.085,"text":"那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快"},{"start":13712.557,"end":13739.103,"text":"真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快"},{"start":13740.494,"end":13756.385,"text":"我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好 謝謝接下來再請謝榮介委員質詢"},{"start":13777.999,"end":13782.262,"text":"主席我請博長跟這個體育局好 陳部長跟楊局長請博長台南體育大學的話你怎麼知道投稿要做多久啊對 局長"},{"start":13803.043,"end":13810.087,"text":"1999年年前做議長的時候就下定了後到老條件做行政議長再度下定1991年台南市開始推動了1991年"},{"start":13832.133,"end":13860.842,"text":"那麼到落市的時候 為了替路燈他怕去氣自己 各個支部要求土法局一個一個去拜訪所以落黨的抗爭那麼之前因為環境差異分析 這個不做 沿途互動這又在落市之前的進展的起點"},{"start":13862.95,"end":13889.836,"text":"那麼中盛開工了有些什麼時候要完工?現在我們有的民營可以通車整體完工還要分兩階段明年是第一階段下地台南車站通車那另外新增的車站會在後面一一八年跟一一九年來分別啟用董事長你知道嗎?"},{"start":13893.24,"end":13910.025,"text":"這個應控到星期到生化這裡永康目前都還在程序當中是可行性研究核定但是進入中規計畫就是設計跟這個規劃的部分會不會再來一個20年我們希望不要這麼久"},{"start":13911.806,"end":13934.998,"text":"保證要有霹靂我是都給你額外的給你報告我們當時台南的地下化的過程當中您剛剛講的歷史是確實有發生但有一些是因為我們挖到了歷史古蹟那如果永康這一段沒有挖到歷史古蹟我們當然就可以照鏡讀你現在天羅教跟保雄 壽雄這個台南火車站你們都賠多少錢有賠款嗎"},{"start":13940.785,"end":13953.935,"text":"多少 不過現在我手上沒有掌握這個我等一下再瞭解一下 你仲裁的時候輸嘛 總共賠多少錢台南車站會收好了"},{"start":13957.199,"end":13984.365,"text":"不知道不知道 我們手上現在沒有掌握資料這樣喔還是是台鐵公司不斷賠錢又輸港幣延長了我們是不是會去做成我們鐵路地下化的市場延後這部分當然已經解決了沒有 我們就是照現在剛剛局長所報告的那個時程我們就照那個下去趕工"},{"start":13985.464,"end":14014.473,"text":"所以本席在這裡就是要跟你說鐵路局在這個鐵路當中對台南市是相當相當重要的我也不是在怪老總統冬季時的老市長空檔六檔你覺得做一個什麼事可以給一個工程給我們空檔六檔那個都不是空轉都是有進度在進行他在做的是你在台中做議員你不是在台南"},{"start":14015.916,"end":14029.622,"text":"我請問老實說,三、四年來第一年,你有第一年做什麼建設嗎?他認不出來,我說你認啦,你只要做什麼建設,我才是市市議員啦人家說沒有啦,人家是客氣啦,不要給你為難啦結果到四年到一年年的時候"},{"start":14039.605,"end":14062.237,"text":"一直第二輪的九七天的跟台南的鄉親說什麼,各位市民鄉親,我是熱情的過去的四年我都在幾月,未來的四年,台南的大進步所以四年的幾月,一樣嘛,鐵路鐵路法,六年的空檔所以本席今天要跟你說的就是說"},{"start":14064.846,"end":14090.242,"text":"會變化 生氣會變化 不能讓我們再來一個二十幾宗的這樣對台南市完全沒有幫忙台南市這裡有二十七 三十七的縫合這條鐵路起來所有的這邊高度尤其是在市內 交通最繁忙這個地方可以讓台南市一個特別 中性"},{"start":14091.755,"end":14118.457,"text":"那麼這個歷代這麼長變成有20公里的歷代這是可以讓大台南做一個新的城市整個因為這是一個故鄉條件不像你們台中和高雄這麼好所以部長你起來告訴我們分析請教你這件案件可以加速進行"},{"start":14119.523,"end":14133.471,"text":"我們會加速進行永康的這個地下化跟您所提到的後面那一段的高架化我們都會加速因為我看林委員所有臺灣市的建設差不多都會進出的這牽棒做的都會進出但是這條進出沒中這條也本身來進出你看很多委員大家都一起來爭取也很感謝謝委員也很努力在爭取我今天第一班會幫你提出"},{"start":14144.602,"end":14166.656,"text":"不然這塊你如果今天答應我好要加速來推動 我也可以拆這塊牆壁啊不然他拆整塊地啊 對不對下次進步是大家共同關心的看到現在的鐵路地下滑到未來這條地下高架下滑本身對你有更多的期待我們交通部會努力謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":14175.336,"end":14192.981,"text":"好 接下來再請秋洛華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長 楊局長請委員好部長好 局長好"},{"start":14202.796,"end":14227.915,"text":"部長 局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費是一千零四十七點九十三億後來修正後暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場它的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議延誤"},{"start":14231.757,"end":14251.088,"text":"佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長 局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明 謝謝"},{"start":14253.466,"end":14274.318,"text":"跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的平震端的難野"},{"start":14275.439,"end":14298.252,"text":"所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎"},{"start":14299.272,"end":14316.618,"text":"我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標"},{"start":14317.578,"end":14345.741,"text":"其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標 或者是這個後續的這個軌道 基電等等的這個問題所以我們趕快 因為局長本席有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛 部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本席想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速"},{"start":14346.366,"end":14366.111,"text":"盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢"},{"start":14369.328,"end":14386.613,"text":"公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公佈在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長"},{"start":14398.612,"end":14415.842,"text":"董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件"},{"start":14417.69,"end":14443.215,"text":"979件 沒錯 那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛 931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件他運轉還有保安裝置故障175件 外務入侵是81件那這代表什麼 這顯示內部的維修還有循環能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼 就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因"},{"start":14443.775,"end":14462.309,"text":"那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":14463.755,"end":14474.643,"text":"有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢"},{"start":14475.56,"end":14500.721,"text":"我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極的要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作"},{"start":14501.294,"end":14525.917,"text":"加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化"},{"start":14526.767,"end":14553.812,"text":"當然是要努力 這邊也請我們勞動部的副署長副署長好 副署長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外請您說明"},{"start":14556.976,"end":14581.378,"text":"報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查"},{"start":14582.816,"end":14610.482,"text":"我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件"},{"start":14612.882,"end":14620.279,"text":"那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善"},{"start":14621.124,"end":14650.129,"text":"我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在編播這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡"},{"start":14651.784,"end":14672.869,"text":"是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說"},{"start":14675.249,"end":14703.878,"text":"趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的組織就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全"},{"start":14704.637,"end":14730.795,"text":"那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在十一月份以後我們已經把它補齊十一月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心十一月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對十一月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來害了"},{"start":14735.12,"end":14748.874,"text":"OK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處"},{"start":14756.926,"end":14780.518,"text":"法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行那其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝接下來再請邱志偉委員自選"},{"start":14790.965,"end":14792.977,"text":"感謝主席 是不是請交通部陳部長陳部長請"},{"start":14799.782,"end":14827.047,"text":"委員好 部長您好 辛苦了那第一個問題要請教你就是說台日韓基本上已經形成一日生活圈了不管是經濟啦或者觀光啦或者甚至安全啦東北亞變成一個命運共同體也是生活圈的概念你到索爾 高雄飛去大概兩個小時有時候一個半小時就跟我從高雄搭高鐵來台北一樣所以日本大概是台灣最喜歡去的國家"},{"start":14827.927,"end":14852.737,"text":"大概每年大概有六七百萬嘛日本也很喜歡來台灣台灣到韓國也大概一百多萬一百二十幾萬那南韓疫情之前也是一百二十幾萬現在大概一百萬左右你看一下日本的做法日本在所有的交通公共交通運輸工具不管是新幹線或者是地方的這些鐵路或者是巴士基本上施予公共"},{"start":14853.939,"end":14868.579,"text":"一定有日語日語之後就是英文英文之後就是中文中文就是韓語幾乎不是只有東京都而已幾乎全國都是這樣做我就觀察很多小到地方的巴士都是用韓語"},{"start":14870.342,"end":14889.462,"text":"所以我們未來可以更友善的環境如果我們能夠很方便的讓韓國旅客來看到這個交通運輸工具都是有韓文標誌他們也行得比較安心 也比較方便所以未來可不可以去檢討一下最起碼你有日文 你有韓文日本做得到 我們也應該可以做得到"},{"start":14890.203,"end":14908.439,"text":"是我們一些重要的交通運具上面我們來研議看可不可以來增加日文跟韓文因為目前看起來只有中文跟英文那標誌上如果可以再增加的話他們就是日文韓文在每個觀光景點都有不僅是公共交通運輸工具最起碼我們重新從我們的高鐵到台鐵"},{"start":14910.373,"end":14939.733,"text":"或者長途的運輸巴士 我們是不是可以考量可以 我們來研議看看 那另外就是針對觀光景點 觀光旅客比較會去的地方 日韓客人比較會去的地方 我們也會來增加那另外就是說這個當然我一直希望說 從消防機場出發的這個國際航線比較多的大型飛機因為這個運量的關係 那未來如果新的大型客機交貨的時候 是不是可以優先配置給高雄消防機場"},{"start":14940.533,"end":14969.028,"text":"因為香港機場目前最大的主力主要的力量主力機型是A330一台就華航其他就是大概737 800或者是這個NEO321都是小型飛機大部分都是737比較多一樣從香港到成田香港到首爾這個跟從這個松山或者從桃園飛到首爾它的價錢是一樣的"},{"start":14970.716,"end":14985.911,"text":"是有時候會比較貴 是所以是不是有沒有可能研究一下我建議是不是能夠與差別為虞你如果在用比較舊的機型在執行這個運載任務的時候是不是價錢方面是不是能夠有些彈性"},{"start":14988.743,"end":15012.808,"text":"這個因為他有他的商業運作的模式我瞭解我瞭解但是因為對南部人而言我們這個一樣要花那麼多錢然後做的都是比較小的飛機是是是但委員您在爭取的這個大的飛機我們也有拜託一些航空公司因為明年他們大概會有交機交一波我們大概就會優先拜託他們把那個大的飛機盡量往高雄機場過去是"},{"start":15013.368,"end":15026.872,"text":"另外一個鐵路那個捷運的建設您知道這個在高雄我的選區就是捷運的紅線那紅線目前正在進行當中那第一階段已經完成現在就是這個2B 2A跟2B"},{"start":15030.193,"end":15056.281,"text":"正在施工當中 那因為這個相關的缺工缺料的問題那自來自來水管線的遷移這些問題所以他必須要延後兩年但是交通黑暗池就會再延長兩年 我是建議會增加一些費用因為才是收收方法的關係 中央要有一些的負擔 需要中央協助所以當然可能今天這個發文就會到"},{"start":15057.401,"end":15069.125,"text":"交通部 再請陳部長 他的修正計畫我們盡量協助 讓他速度可以加快 就是說中央還需要再給市政府協助10.55億那市政府還要負擔2.8億這部分再請這個部長能夠請 我們會來協助 另外"},{"start":15076.767,"end":15093.088,"text":"紫色的 紫線的這個審查的進度也希望能夠督促我們相關單位能夠盡快的把這個進度審查的時程把它縮短好 我們昨天才開過初審會議那時程我會盡量加速好 這個我想這個部長有掌握另外就是陸族車站 陸族車站當然"},{"start":15093.849,"end":15118.87,"text":"未來運量一定會增加因為陸族科學園區的關係雖然有未來捷運那捷運要蓋完蓋到陸族也大概也要好幾年以後那現在的陸族台鐵站那相關的樂台的整建也是我整取的也謝謝交通部的支持那現在就是說相關的這個設計啦包括臨時雨遮跟旅客縱限這個部分經費也沒有著落"},{"start":15120.436,"end":15142.264,"text":"這地方上有這個需求 就是說臨時的遮蔽的雨遮 動線相關的規劃 是 這個我們請台鐵公司趕快來研議看有沒有經費可以趕快來做改善 對 然後能夠及時啟動 不要到明年再啟動 我們可以從原本的計畫來做調整就好了不用再啟動新的計畫 用原本的計畫來調整 再請部長協助 再請台鐵來協助好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":15147.588,"end":15173.932,"text":"接下來 謝謝接下來再請楊瓊瑜委員質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊瑜發言再邀請部長來 請陳部長委員好"},{"start":15174.659,"end":15196.956,"text":"部長好 台鐵員工被攻擊的事件頻傳被打 被辱罵 被施壓 甚至被掐脖子那麼在我們文明的國家裡頭有這樣的事件實在是一個恥辱那為什麼我們看不到改變呢因為我們看到數字這些是沒有在減少的"},{"start":15197.797,"end":15224.255,"text":"尤其在這半年當中有七成有被這樣子的攻擊事件那我們的招委孟凱招委他非常的關心這個議題所以去年的時候我們也一起開過記者會我們提出了方案希望政府去精進那對於台鐵的站務人員基層員工在執勤時一再也受到了這個恐嚇"},{"start":15225.276,"end":15240.834,"text":"攻擊都沒有提出這個有效的方案所以讓問題一直反覆在重演所以我們也要請教你們研議到今你認為會重複接連的發生的原因是什麼請說明"},{"start":15243.434,"end":15266.292,"text":"報告委員會一再的發生當然旅客做這樣不理性的事情我們公司台鐵公司一定會站在員工的立場來保護員工那幾個方面一個方面在法律的追溯方面公司也已經有專案了來協助員工在法律上面訴求來保護自己的權益這一方面那二方面我們當然也跟鐵路警察"},{"start":15267.132,"end":15292.643,"text":"這邊有來做溝通拜託他們能夠協助在治安的方面因為台鐵公司本身負責營運但是治安的部分還是要拜託鐵路警察這方面來協助另外針對也有員工在討論說要不要裝密錄器來保護員工但是現在有一些員工是覺得不需要這是你之前在說的但是我們認為說絕不允許有任何人遭受這樣的職場對待"},{"start":15295.466,"end":15310.224,"text":"這個應該 這個方向是一致的 這個沒有錯那所以呢 過去 過去有發了密錄器有偵派了這個警察來巡邏 保全人力那這些SOP流程 但是問題本席要請教"},{"start":15310.885,"end":15336.545,"text":"你所謂的要警察這個鐵路警察來協助那你們到底進度是如何因為我們結果論不希望看到一而再再而三的這個事件來發生比如說我們增加警察的據點台鐵聘請這個保全人員迅速可以把這個治安的死角有所幫助這些啟動你們是不是有在檢討呢"},{"start":15337.586,"end":15366.66,"text":"是跟委員報告這些都有在檢討那什麼時候要出來呢什麼時候要出來呢因為數字告訴我們他沒有減少反而增加你們都有在檢討你們的經經方案什麼時候會出來呢跟委員報告跟這個鐵井之間的這個聯繫我們已經有一個共識就是說增加這個鐵井的他用這個跨域的這個方式來增加那個見景率那目前從5月開始已經開始執行了"},{"start":15366.98,"end":15384.81,"text":"好那請你們把你們精進的方案書面資料給本席那所以一個結論也就是說今天委員都有提出這個修法對於鐵路法的修法針對於旅客暴力攻擊跟重罰那麼新增強暴"},{"start":15386.179,"end":15411.499,"text":"脅迫恐嚇或其他非法的這個方法呢那麼我們要新增了徒刑跟罰金這個方向是不是部長你同意跟委員報告如果是可以保護員工的方向我都會來支持你都會同意那請教上面的強度到哪裡我們還要跟我們這個討論所以方向是一致那請教行政院會有版本嗎"},{"start":15412.879,"end":15428.194,"text":"你會有願版嗎我們目前沒有研議版本你看 你們為什麼不研議民眾這麼迫切關注的所以你必須要去研議這本席跟你建議接下來本席要跟你討論的我們台中高鐵特區114年1月8號我在這裡"},{"start":15430.876,"end":15446.25,"text":"又質詢我說我們的這個高鐵增加北站的這個北台中的這個站那麼當時呢市長到這邊來質詢他同意要去這個評估那現在評估的進度怎麼樣呢台中的北站對評估的進度如何呢"},{"start":15455.152,"end":15472.751,"text":"跟委員報告 台中高鐵的你們是答應說你們要去評估 你點頭我們有做過評估就是說就技術上評估方向出來了嗎就技術上來說目前要在高鐵營運中的路線新增車站有系統上技術的困難"},{"start":15473.564,"end":15498.811,"text":"沒關係你把你們評估因為本席絕對會在追蹤我們所提出的方案那你們評估出來應該要將你們的評估報告不管是如何要送請要給我們為什麼不給呢你們什麼時候評估出來評估出來了嗎那這個是正式在交通委員會評估了沒有"},{"start":15499.915,"end":15520.885,"text":"出來了沒有有評估那你把評估的順便交給本席所以請你們也要好好努力那接下來本席要問部長2700萬人次在進駐一年在台中站那你交通部針對國一新增閘道連結高鐵特區你們怎麼協助呢"},{"start":15521.653,"end":15541.726,"text":"你們怎麼協助這個目前可行性研究的這個費用我們有請這個鐵道局跟我們當時有標到這個要發展這個地區的那個廠商請他們補助給台中市那目前也已經補助給他是多少錢700多萬還是廠商補助700萬給台中市做整體規劃"},{"start":15542.967,"end":15556.694,"text":"那這個國一新增閘道的部分是由鐵道局補助給台中市政府他們也已經在辦理另案的這個可行性研究評估當中預計下個月就可以提出報告下個月提出報告因為台中市政府要提出報告所以部長你也台中來的你也擔任過我們的市議員"},{"start":15562.901,"end":15577.194,"text":"高鐵特區是鐵道局台中市政府努力的在協助所以我要求我們交通部一定好好的要來努力接下來我本期要跟你討論台74線預留新街的閘道我們當時在興建的時候74線已經有預留已經有預留有這個銜接口"},{"start":15584.941,"end":15603.519,"text":"那現在每天都在篩你當時就已經有預留了你應該就不用再評估了就趕快迅速加強它的改善措施抱怨當時的計畫已經結束了所以現在台中市政府必須提出它的評估需求好 你說它的什麼改 結束了"},{"start":15604.744,"end":15619.604,"text":"之前我們的高鐵的那個站的建設的計畫已經結束了建設的計畫結束了但是當時你有預留這個銜接口對不對所以交通部你應該要好好的來協助你來自台中"},{"start":15620.505,"end":15647.708,"text":"我們都有在協助但是台中市政府該走的程序他要走台中市政府努力的在走他沒有在走怎麼沒有在走他要來提要求他努力的在走我們委員也不斷在會堪他的程序上必須要走所以我在這邊慎重的建起要求一定要好好協助因為現在我們知道在台中高鐵特區那裡每天塞的很嚴重對不對"},{"start":15648.709,"end":15674.582,"text":"每天塞得很嚴重所以最後我還是要請這個部長你如果是台中市的當時你是議員你全力的也來推動我們的捷運對不對那現在你照法定規定我們的補助照分配你明年要給我們42億委員這不是照規定這完全沒有照規定這個完全沒有照規定"},{"start":15675.782,"end":15684.948,"text":"來 你現在只有用財化法來做藉口所以你本來要給我們40%而已你現在大砍96%你中央只要給1.61%我相信如果你還是台中市議會你絕對不同意對不對所以我希望你現在更身為台中你現在更是交通部長"},{"start":15703.078,"end":15730.152,"text":"你更應當要支持台中的交通檢測如果台中的需求是60億他自己要編40億中央是20幾億結果他要求中央出40幾億這是不公平的如果沒有如此怎麼會有這個數字出來委員細節您都不瞭解怎麼不瞭解你好好去審思該當協助的尤其你來到台中你更應當要好好協助好不好我們都在協助好 就你這句話一定要好好協助 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15734.693,"end":15739.558,"text":"謝謝接下來請陳瑩委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請交通部長陳部長請"},{"start":15762.002,"end":15789.571,"text":"部長好部長辛苦了那我想在上次總質詢的時候因為時間的關係沒能好好在比較細部的討論這個整個花東跟南回鐵路雙軌電企劃的事情那我想我再確認一下就是因為這個花東地區雙軌電企劃這件事情其實本席在2008年的時候就曾經質詢當時的行政院長劉兆璇跟交通部長毛志國那"},{"start":15790.471,"end":15804.147,"text":"大家也都非常積極的在規劃這件事情那原本的期程是七年後來在本席的要求之下那評估之後呢改為五年那在這次的總質詢我在"},{"start":15806.309,"end":15828.741,"text":"那時候有提到那聽到部長的答覆說現在的工期要變成10年我當下有點嚇一大跳那因為這是你們目前的施工進度那這個第三階段的這個甘城到壽峰還有東里到關山還沒有發包那這個部分部長就是說有回答預計2031年"},{"start":15831.903,"end":15854.654,"text":"完工我想再請教一下因為已經對這次在送計劃已經算是第二次的這個變更了第一次修正那到底就是說這個期程就是說到底行政院什麼時候可不可以核定什麼時候核定"},{"start":15855.479,"end":15872.905,"text":"報告委員其實這個工程也不管修正有沒有過我們都在進行當中所以我們的第一階段就是116年12月這個沒有問題應該是做得到那我們第二階段第三階段我們目前也正在趕當中對那所以因為預計2031年完工這個部分還會有變數嗎"},{"start":15877.608,"end":15890.857,"text":"我們朝這個方向在努力不過跟委員報告因為這幾年我們在花東的交通建設其實也蠻多的所以其實我們營造的量能是我們目前遇到最大的問題如果營造的量能充足我們當然這個時程上應該不會有問題"},{"start":15894.039,"end":15915.257,"text":"好那但因為目前還沒看到核定的部分所以是今年整體的計劃核定沒有問題所以我們所有的該往前走的都會繼續往前走好那只是修正計劃還沒核定修正計劃是針對一方面預算那二方面是供期的問題在做修正這樣我了解好謝謝"},{"start":15916.138,"end":15943.286,"text":"那就是這個南匯鐵路雙軌化的部分當然之前有這個微笑南灣的計畫我們也非常期待那就是說在這個微笑南灣這個計畫那個交通部要從這個南台灣一直到台東花蓮重新整個重整刷新這個觀光的這些亮點那我想這些觀光亮點"},{"start":15944.986,"end":15969.903,"text":"刷新之後那我們就是說交通部甚至在未來還可以跟旅行社來溝通配合來增加國外的國外觀光客直接從高雄入境然後再來南回往台東華聯走這樣子的路線那我想再加上之前其實幾個風災讓那個東部的不管公路鐵路其實都斷掉"},{"start":15970.703,"end":15993.149,"text":"然後再加上這一次光復救災也是很多人我在火車上遇到很多人就是整個從這個高雄這樣坐南回繞上去所以這個南回鐵路雙軌化這件事情是很重要不然每次在教會列車確實耗掉我們很多的時間那一樣的就是說本席還是"},{"start":15994.449,"end":16021.861,"text":"很關心就是到底這個南迴鐵路雙軌劃計提升為快鐵計劃這個部分就是說到底你們在期程上我們會趕快來爭取院的核定如果行政院核定可行性研究過了之後我們就會進行綜合規劃的進度對就是因為核定有沒有一個期程你們預計可能大概落在什麼時候我們盡量爭取行政院那邊可以趕快核定"},{"start":16023.053,"end":16042.843,"text":"因為上次也已經過了一年我了解 但我想很多事情我們應該都有一個規劃就是說希望能夠如期大概什麼時候完成什麼這樣子我們希望盡快我們盡量爭取還是部長很保守對 我們因應期盼"},{"start":16043.843,"end":16066.717,"text":"那這個可能我還是 因為這是行政院這邊我必須要用拜託跟爭取的角度去那我也陪你一起去拜託好了好 謝謝周委站起來我很快問一個就是替蘭宇問個問題部長知不知道在台灣各個離島剩下哪兩個島沒有ATM"},{"start":16069.454,"end":16094.004,"text":"在機場我指的是機場這個我不曉得金門澎湖馬祖的北竿南竿都有那現在就剩下綠島跟蘭嶼機場是沒有ATM的所以我想在機場設置ATM應該是蠻普遍的情形那當然在這個離島設置ATM大家一定會去考慮到它的這個經濟效益的問題但是很多地方"},{"start":16094.884,"end":16117.056,"text":"很多的狀況是沒有辦法用經濟效益的這個理由去評估了如果是這樣子什麼事情都用經濟效益來看那不好意思那個蘭嶼的飛機也不用飛了船也不用開了那有一些我覺得這個比喻比較不好但是我可以提一下我們有一些罕見疾病或者有一些特殊疾病的藥物我們也不用研發了"},{"start":16118.457,"end":16134.495,"text":"我想這個是這個這樣的心態因為畢竟大家知道那天來你們派了這個郵局出席代表這個副管理師林小姐那特別用這樣的理由那當然我們提到包括"},{"start":16135.436,"end":16146.371,"text":"不管是誰啦 大家有需要用到現金在下機場 欸沒有錢了 要提個款你總不能說因為立委要去那裡提款沒有錢叫做立委這麼 講說都這麼窮這樣子"},{"start":16149.645,"end":16165.704,"text":"報告委員這個案子我們有去跟中華郵政做溝通了我們在蘭嶼機場會來設置ATM這個部分已經跟他們溝通完畢了這個沒有問題已經OK了只是時程上我們會希望它能夠加快我慢慢我是"},{"start":16166.865,"end":16182.612,"text":"滿感謝那位副管理師啦因為他那一天的心態跟失言我覺得這個是有一點歧視的狀態那感謝他的這樣的一個回覆促使大家很積極來辦理這一件"},{"start":16184.793,"end":16213.314,"text":"其實對我們所有一切都只是替蘭嶼的朋友來爭取而已是 謝謝委員那我想如果有順利那就很好那你們可以主動關心一下綠島是不是也有同樣的需求因為我們沒有想要再請他到辦公室來我去瞭解看看好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請徐欣穎委員質詢"},{"start":16224.036,"end":16226.22,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請陳部長陳部長請你好"},{"start":16234.266,"end":16260.138,"text":"部長我想可能我們常常在這個不管委員會或是院會您應該對我們新竹縣的虎口鄉有了比較深的認識是是是您時常提到提到對那新竹縣的虎口鄉他是全國這個鄉鎮市的鄉裡面是全國第一大鄉"},{"start":16261.338,"end":16282.016,"text":"目前已經是全國第一大那所以他表示什麼表示他人口還有地方的發展是非常活絡的那這邊有新豐湖口工業區新竹產業園區還有這個很多的一些物流各方面地方發展非常迅速"},{"start":16282.757,"end":16308.012,"text":"那因為今天剛好這個台鐵局鐵道局還有台鐵公司來所以本席要特別的來針對我們台鐵捷運化台鐵捷運化這個政策本席非常認同那針對新竹縣虎口鄉這邊呢它人口這麼快速的成長我們交通建設應該是要在走在更前面"},{"start":16308.752,"end":16322.197,"text":"那現在呢這個已經有有些落後了所以之前有向您反映的虎口第二交流道那今天是要特別來反映我們虎口有個虎口車站就是這個台鐵的車站那"},{"start":16324.825,"end":16352.543,"text":"現在呢鄉親們已經都連署各方面整個那個腹地大概人口有十幾萬的人口希望在南湖口再設一個檢疫車站這個部分我們想了解就是說我們這個台鐵捷運化嘛所以在這個人口眾多的地區來設這個檢疫車站我們希望部長這裡可以來支持可以嗎"},{"start":16353.656,"end":16375.582,"text":"報告委員這個我們之前可能還沒有收到沒有收到這個案子但是委員您今天在建議這件事我們就請鐵道局跟台鐵公司大家一起來研議本席的前一任這個選區的立委他之前提了但是那時候好像回應是還不到就是說好像還沒有覺得可行性"},{"start":16376.542,"end":16400.604,"text":"或者是那時候還沒有提出台鐵捷運化這個政策後來我們看到台鐵捷運化我們覺得非常好因為這個可以讓我們整個的運輸各方面地方的發展區域的發展都更好我們在幾個都會區它的捷運化的部分已經有做了包含車站的部分包含車次的部分區間車的車次的部分有做調整委員所提到是現在湖口"},{"start":16401.364,"end":16430.26,"text":"五口的人口增加非常快速那是一個新的變化那我們就針對這件事情來做可行性方面的研究一下我們內部來做一下請台鐵先做一下這方面的研究如果有這方面的需求那我們會一起來協助對 這個是不是如果台鐵在做可行性的時候有到地方我們就一起可以會勘一下我們是不是請台鐵公司這邊是不是看那一段那一段是誰負責的我們再來研究一下"},{"start":16431.584,"end":16456.634,"text":"就這個運量的需求方面有啦本席已經幫你們做了很多已經現有的檢疫站都輸給這一站好不好輸給這邊的先請教因為他整個的你們可能不是很了解他整個湖口新峰他距離6.2公里但實際上這中間南湖口在中間他能夠能夠再幫忙紓解那整個新峰湖口的"},{"start":16459.817,"end":16473.529,"text":"人口數13萬多所以我們地方非常需求所以本席今天提出來是因為他已經是緩不濟急但是我們還是要加緊來做所以會很希望我們能夠盡快好不好"},{"start":16475.25,"end":16492.12,"text":"好那最後最後時間到就是今天最重要的就是我們台鐵月台設立這個月台門的這個部分那我們有看到好像有考慮纜繩式的升降月台門那這個部分有可能再加速嗎我想"},{"start":16492.64,"end":16509.79,"text":"大概之前很多委員也覺得我們台鐵這邊速度是不是可以再快一點我們明年3月高雄的那一座它是比較實驗性的試辦那一座在明年的3月會蓋好然後我們讓它營運一段時間去測試一下一段要測試多久這個台鐵的規劃是大概多久時間"},{"start":16512.691,"end":16532.998,"text":"半年吧 半年的這個測試看它整個各種的功能還有是有沒有什麼樣的其實規劃的好一點測試一般這個半年是哪裡訂出來的因為過去沒用過 沒用過所以可能還有跟國人的一些習慣或是各種遷到而且這個系統也是台灣第一次做這樣子的系統這種懶人式過去沒有做過"},{"start":16533.858,"end":16543.984,"text":"那我們大家還是期望因為這個安全大家都非常重視那能夠怎麼樣完善而且加快我們希望可以盡速好 因為我們會加速加速來好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":16550.851,"end":16572.419,"text":"好 再來請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員質詢 林倩琦委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員質詢 蘇清泉委員不在王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員質詢 王美惠委員不在郭玉琴 郭玉琴 郭玉琴 郭玉琴委員質詢 郭玉琴委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員質詢 鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":16574.09,"end":16597.677,"text":"好 登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員尤浩 鍾嘉斌 蘇巧慧 郭育晴所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報三 委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束休息 明天繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":16601.869,"end":16607.159,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16631.944,"end":16633.666,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16991","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc021bb07685947ff6ef9173a6ca63f5aa0aa126c40303dc27280e0e0f043d1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。\n【10月29日及30日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-29T08:37:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:56:00+08:00","duration":11881,"影片長度":"03:18:01","委員發言時間":"08:37:59 - 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫並備質詢本次會議有委員黃國昌等13人提出質詢委員賴會員傅坤祺提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關 晉書 宋嬌 個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1390.493,"end":1401.935,"text":"我們現在接著介紹到場的委員及應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場的委員程培宇委員"},{"start":1420.371,"end":1442.185,"text":"接著我們來介紹應邀列席的官員首先我們介紹行政總處人事長蘇俊榮人事長還有政務副人事長張秋元副人事長公務人力發展學院院長陳明忠"},{"start":1443.183,"end":1447.884,"text":"中和規劃署署長、李美惠署長、主編人力署署長、邱怡章邱署長、培訓考用署署長、李花書署長"},{"start":1462.388,"end":1484.886,"text":"吉宇福利處處長 程樹之程處長人事資訊處處長 莊樹宜莊處長秘書室主任 蔡富雄蔡主任還有我們人事室主任 程怡君程主任主計室主任 程立惠程主任政風室主任 余雅文余主任"},{"start":1487.305,"end":1495.208,"text":"來,我們現在先確定議事錄,請問各位上次非議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有的話,沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話,我們議事錄就確定了。"},{"start":1503.72,"end":1526.418,"text":"那我們本次會議就週三跟週四兩天一次會我們議程的一個排定我們邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長來列席報告業務的概況跟立法計畫並備諮詢我們現在來進行報告請行政院人事行政總處書人事長"},{"start":1531.302,"end":1558.104,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位同仁 大家早安好人事總署統籌各機關人力資源管理的措施依政府施政的主軸務實推動組織的調整深化公部門人才的培訓建構友善健康職場等策略性人力資源管理作為以下請就總署重要的業務推動情形與未來工作重點及立法的計畫進行報告"},{"start":1560.206,"end":1577.93,"text":"首先在整個組織調整及人力配置部分配合國家政策推動組織調整我們已經以今年的9月成立運動部及簽名運動署推廣簽名運動並發展運動產業另外在人力的配置上總署秉持著當真則真 應檢則檢的原則"},{"start":1580.792,"end":1594.442,"text":"將給予的人力優先支援司法改革進行轉型以打造個人資料保護以邊境管理等攸關重大民生安全以新興的重點業務那明年度的政府"},{"start":1596.212,"end":1616.615,"text":"預算延額的總數是22萬800人較近年平均延額列增為524人其次在人才培育方面我們今年以智慧台灣永續前行為主主辦理國家政府研究班及高階領導研究班進行實務交流並預計以智慧國家轉型為主題"},{"start":1617.616,"end":1642.183,"text":"選送35人出國研習以增進AI落地應用資源同時為了推動公部門AI人才的一個發展以數位發展部以今年7月22號共同成立AI公務人才發展辦公室藉以前方為推動公部門AI人才培訓加速推動政府AI創新應用同時總數依照今年AI"},{"start":1643.28,"end":1660.265,"text":"政府領航人才而發展計畫辦理了多項的課程提高同仁對AI應用之理解與實作能力並整合線上的平台資源以一等公務員學習平台設置人工智慧專區以推動AI的素養普及"},{"start":1660.965,"end":1682.474,"text":"在推動友善職場方面總署跟保訓會協力完善職場霸凌與性騷防治的制度並增訂身心調適價配合世界心理健康日以今年的10月10號施行以保障同仁身心健康令我們亦持續推動員工協助方案勤修管理及"},{"start":1683.334,"end":1702.32,"text":"拖曳設施的建置營造友善與支持性的職場環境又為了照顧精工教員工配合機關實務實習及各類人員攬財留財需要合理調整各類人員的待遇包含提高公務國軍志願役勤務加急"},{"start":1704.04,"end":1723.138,"text":"調整特殊教育人員職務佳績 公立醫療機構及學校各類醫事人員專業佳績 營民行及查核作業終點會 核定公職獸醫師不開業獎金以及海巡矯正機關 輪班輪修人員 深夜圍牢性勤務津貼等 以提升職場吸引力"},{"start":1724.159,"end":1746.132,"text":"面對整個社會的變遷跟民眾期待的提升穩定而專業的公務人力是政策推動的基石展望115年總促將持續結合施政願景與國家發展重點穩健推動組織管理制度應用嚴格評鑑促進數位轉型"},{"start":1747.413,"end":1767.754,"text":"積極提升高階人員國際視野結社能力深化AI領航人才培育以因應未來治理挑戰並持續推動智慧化的人事服務合理優化待遇與職場環境以提升工部門吸引力與流產競爭力敬請各位委員繼續一一支持 以上報告進行指教"},{"start":1773.387,"end":1803.007,"text":"好 我們現在開始進行我們現在機關代表報告完畢了相關書面的內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間八分鐘那我們必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間五分鐘並不再延長那我們上午十點半截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":1807.434,"end":1809.557,"text":"我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員跟我們換排序 謝謝"},{"start":1815.426,"end":1833.916,"text":"委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑它會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎"},{"start":1841.677,"end":1861.106,"text":"在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那一些高風險分子好 謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說"},{"start":1864.453,"end":1885.927,"text":"公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限7天內要報備這對不對 這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣"},{"start":1888.408,"end":1916.406,"text":"他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層兼任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可"},{"start":1918.281,"end":1939.417,"text":"目前是需要在106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機它不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人"},{"start":1940.217,"end":1954.693,"text":"所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家"},{"start":1955.794,"end":1972.229,"text":"所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的民意然後進行前置自由的現實"},{"start":1974.471,"end":1992.759,"text":"所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點"},{"start":1994.025,"end":2008.87,"text":"因为法律虽然是陆委会等等其他机关他们所定的但是制度是你们所处理的对不对一些表格一些申报单什么都是你们在做的所以你们不能说这个是跟你们无关好不好你们注意一下"},{"start":2010.13,"end":2030.819,"text":"為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個"},{"start":2032.065,"end":2058.264,"text":"我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子 我先請教一下我直接講 兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做"},{"start":2059.741,"end":2088.628,"text":"但是呢 我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說 好 我直接講譬如說左鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算"},{"start":2089.758,"end":2115.807,"text":"那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你盯得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講它裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中"},{"start":2116.927,"end":2134.852,"text":"这种完全违反行政中立的事情请问一下你们有真的有去正视这个问题吗他们没有把我加入群组所以我比较不清楚我知道 但是不是 你不能这样讲那公务员违法犯罪也没有把我加入群组我就不处理他吗你不能讲这句话"},{"start":2135.552,"end":2155.56,"text":"不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道"},{"start":2156.52,"end":2178.275,"text":"哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道你今天我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念"},{"start":2179.537,"end":2205.467,"text":"你不可以這樣做我一直很尊重你我覺得你至少是個講道理的人憲法訴訟法不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人你現在是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟是不停止法律的適用不是說停止就停止左榮泰直接違法違憲"},{"start":2207.874,"end":2219.329,"text":"算了 我这不是你的事那我不要讲请你不要附送行政院院长违法的论述我很讨厌行政官员你是高官高官来这里还说出违法的话就不对了"},{"start":2220.475,"end":2238.305,"text":"如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛"},{"start":2239.423,"end":2265.025,"text":"所以你既然在那邊這樣子我覺得不應該啦好 那81人群組那個我想你沒有回答 你說你不在裡面好 那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官 也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們就高官的部分違反你們都不管啊 對不對"},{"start":2266.897,"end":2277.209,"text":"然後基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管那個主席 報告主席先暫停一下有個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下"},{"start":2279.34,"end":2299.728,"text":"這樣暫停 你都問你會怎麼做我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你不用詢問 繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可我想請教一下目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你質詢的對象"},{"start":2301.069,"end":2320.516,"text":"不是 我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問 你可以不回答人事長在這個地方 你就質詢就好主席你是老立委 我們應該對於沒有那麼老 跟你一樣你是直升的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係 主席不方便回答學務5G 好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2325.117,"end":2345.821,"text":"我這邊講很簡單啦就我剛問主席 主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道那主席也不方便講那但是呢我回答你一下因為你一直要我回答我告訴你六都的民進黨台北市議院連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去不是啦"},{"start":2346.341,"end":2359.134,"text":"我說黨員 立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦 謝謝公職一定有 民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好 你要想問我私底下來告訴你沒關係 沒關係喔 那就這樣"},{"start":2361.676,"end":2389.113,"text":"好啦 我的問題很簡單我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個 任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的"},{"start":2389.873,"end":2417.051,"text":"那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密我約第三國也可以泄密這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了"},{"start":2417.97,"end":2434.97,"text":"目的只有这个所以这个到底意义在哪里我认为不符合比例原则好 那因为时间到了那刚刚主席也没有让我时间暂停那我想我就提了一下就是因为您上任到现在这最后您上任到现在"},{"start":2436.243,"end":2464.018,"text":"離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想"},{"start":2465.378,"end":2485.503,"text":"兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係"},{"start":2486.883,"end":2510.906,"text":"那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說"},{"start":2512.307,"end":2539.399,"text":"你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠"},{"start":2540.299,"end":2554.047,"text":"演繹一下順便給我 不懂的你們可以問我好 謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點 謝謝接下來我們請程培宇委員詢答給你按讚"},{"start":2569.2,"end":2588.03,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員發揮同袍愛關心主席的眼睛但是我要提醒一下剛剛那個會議那個詢問其實不在程序可以問的範圍之內而且問到民進黨黨員是要幫中共一起處理嗎這個很奇怪昨天中共才說要通緝沈伯陽好 謝謝主席我有請人事長 謝謝請蘇人事長"},{"start":2592.709,"end":2610.024,"text":"委員長好 人事長我們來講一下最近有非常多媒體都刻意錯誤的引導輿論說台灣教師荒很可怕我不知道人長你這邊的資料怎麼看我們辦公室非常負責任的關心這一題我們來看一下"},{"start":2611.225,"end":2629.086,"text":"這個相關的數字呢密密麻麻我講給人長聽這個是113學年度各縣市學校正式教師就是他到時候呢入職之後他用的是年金是公立學校教職人員退休服務去調理的時候我們來看一下我們辦公室非常負責任的要了111 1121"},{"start":2632.229,"end":2646.313,"text":"113三個學年度整理完之後呢就變成這個表格只呈現了113我跟你說一下來正式教師的部分呢在國小新北呢光是報名5364人只錄取647人12%國中的部分報名2839人錄取189人6%"},{"start":2655.134,"end":2669.709,"text":"高中的部分4356人報名只錄取106這是2%這個是新北市的113學年度國小 國中 高中的正式教師錄取情況跟報名情況我們來看一下台北"},{"start":2670.63,"end":2674.671,"text":"國小的部分就有3603個人報名 只錄取了278人 7%國中的部分報名3392人 只錄取131 3.8%高中的部分更可怕 113年 就是去年而已報名10398人 只錄取156人 1.5%"},{"start":2694.315,"end":2712.892,"text":"所以我要說這個教師荒這件事情很多輿論一直說沒有人要當老師那我就讓人長看光是113年台北跟新北大家覺得生活費高房租高的地方好像沒有人要報名去當老師結果事實不是"},{"start":2714.113,"end":2734.953,"text":"事實不是這樣所以我想要問一下人長這個數據我不知道你手上有沒有這個數字我要說正式教師其實從來都沒有教師黃所以相關的輿論非常可惡的去誤導這個方向那我們當然要說 至於正式老師另外一個叫做什麼代理教師"},{"start":2737.605,"end":2756.74,"text":"代理教師的困境是這樣左邊這個奇怪的圖不是我辦公室做的是很多學校為了招聘代理教師他們自己老師自己就發揮了創意做這個梗圖說成為老師要像鋼鐵人體育老師一招二招三招這樣然後連相關的新聞都說建中缺老師"},{"start":2758.301,"end":2783.147,"text":"可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師這個媒體還算負責他標題有寫清楚叫誰要當代理教師確實很多學校是缺代理教師的什麼一招二招七招八招十幾招意思是什麼對照我前一張投影片來看其實如果要說教師荒我認為應該是代理教師荒好仁長你怎麼看"},{"start":2784.828,"end":2808.444,"text":"因為長期我都在台東地區那台東地區的教師方我跟當地的教育處長還有一些老師談是沒有另外還有一個代理老師的部分坦白講在那個地方你要到學校當老師或代理老師事實上都很困難你必須要很有實力你才能夠"},{"start":2809.184,"end":2832.717,"text":"去當代理老師我個人的親自體驗是沒有代理老師放在台東那個地區那個是幾年前你要講清楚沒有 這幾年always是這樣這幾年因為每一年我都在那裡好幾次就是有跟他們當地的運動教練還有當地的教育單位在對話因為他們也教我很多東西"},{"start":2833.317,"end":2848.494,"text":"好 我們來看一下你說你沒有感受到代理教師慌可是確實我必須要說還是有相關數字呈現代理教師慌但是我為什麼要把代理教師跟正式老師放在一起比較其實關鍵是代理教師他現在用的是勞保"},{"start":2850.469,"end":2877.175,"text":"而且代理教師在比較封閉的學校教育體系當中要去兼任行政還要去做很多正式老師不想做的事情都丟包給代理教師甚至我們之前也接到非常多陳情很多地方的教育局處他在徵選或者是學校在徵選代理教師的時候他都不直接寫明你要兼任行政然後把人家拐騙之後才讓人家兼任行政"},{"start":2879.456,"end":2892.343,"text":"這是另外一個困境所以我要講的是說正式教師他用的是年金而代理教師用的是勞保然後正式老師他有工作的保障他進去之後如果他沒有備用不適應教師"},{"start":2895.044,"end":2922.693,"text":"請離開這個教育現場他基本上可以做到好做到滿做到老做到他不想做為止那甚至呢他們還不用兼很多行政而這些事情相關的福利或者是相關的行政重量其實都在代理教師身上所以我要先鄭重澄清我認為現在大量在講教師荒這件事情其實我們要證明叫做代理教師荒確實有出現在某些縣市甚至是某些層級的學校但不代表"},{"start":2923.473,"end":2944.21,"text":"整體有教師荒因為剛剛正式教師的報名的部分我已經講得很清楚了為什麼要講這個你一定覺得很奇怪因為今天要講年輕改革上個禮拜呢翁曉琳委員她所召開的公聽會裡面就有非常多的老師一直拿著所謂報考人數啊或者是教師荒來談年輕改革必須要跟上他們的腳步"},{"start":2944.91,"end":2955.757,"text":"必須符合他們的訴求那我就問啦正式教師都沒有教師荒了到底他們這個邏輯是什麼我還是不懂啦但是我想這不是我今天要跟你討論的重點我要講的是下一張"},{"start":2957.951,"end":2979.546,"text":"現在教師的緣額或教師的困境其實是根據教育部的國民小學跟國民中學班級編制跟教職員緣額編制準則相關的規定不管是1.65人或者是2.2人我想這個都很清楚緣額的部分照理說這個條文本來寫的是學校編制的地板可是實務上運作變成天花板"},{"start":2980.026,"end":3001.246,"text":"那確實現在也有很多老師說現在的孩子班級人數看起來變少了我們小時候一個班是50個人要坐到垃圾桶後面去這樣可是現在一個班大概只有30個人可是問題是現在30個孩子的家庭啊社區啦孩子們的生命經驗相對於我們小時候複雜多元的很多而且一個老師所能夠處理的狀況呢"},{"start":3002.347,"end":3029.526,"text":"沒有辦法處理要這麼多孩子的狀況甚至這幾年很多特教生也增加了確實地方老師的負擔是變很大我相信我們都認同所以我們有沒有可能在新版才化法很多錢都跑到地方政府去囉光是花蓮就增加一百六十幾億台北市增加四百多億而這些原本該屬於地方政府應該要負責的教師員兒的部分可不可以實際的去請他們做一些事情你怎麼看"},{"start":3032.409,"end":3060.924,"text":"我覺得這應該可以納入整個才化法的綜合來考量因為之前我知道教育部也做了很多努力偏鄉的老師有時候也留不住嘛後來他們也有做留庭的一些獎勵的機制所以慢慢偏鄉的老師也留下來那以這一個為當一個指標的話因為他的percentage可能不是很比例不是很重可是我覺得可以納入參考參考值可以納入"},{"start":3061.124,"end":3075.62,"text":"我要再次忽悠新版財化法之後光是台北市就拿走400多億可是他現在開始還沒有開始認真編預算就天天叫窮天天說都是中央的責任沒關係啦你不用救你們長官沒事這樣沒事我跟你說"},{"start":3076.141,"end":3097.561,"text":"我要講的新版才化法這件事情我認為地方政府必須要扛起責任尤其在教師員額的部分那我當然希望人長這邊你們可以給他們專業的建議到底我們怎麼協助地方老師而地方政府應該要怎麼負責不要到時候再甩鍋給中央而地方教師的責任相關財政的責任跟義務其實在地方政府對不對"},{"start":3099.281,"end":3117.474,"text":"是 所以我覺得委員提了非常重要的一個概念就是我們會去跟教育部還有我們各個地方政府的人事主管你不能只找教育部你要找地方政府的人對 兩個教育部要找還有我們地方政府的人事主管讓他一起來參議"},{"start":3118.655,"end":3138.212,"text":"因為這是兩方面因為教育端的部分還是以教育部為主體可是在剛才委員所指教的就是以地方的一個財政的一個分工部分也要讓我們人事通人知道整個財劃法如果改編以後它整個的經費來源可能會從地方政府來支付"},{"start":3138.592,"end":3166.626,"text":"而且要真的協助地方老師國民黨都口口聲聲說要為老師好要為老師好要為小孩好要為小孩我就問這些相關的地方權責在教育的工作上地方政府難道不用負責任嗎我覺得非常的荒謬我時間有限我尊重主席希望大家尊重時間我直接跳到最後一張其實我今天問這麼多就是要講到關於年金改革的事情尤其是年金制度並不是你的年金或者我的年金"},{"start":3167.586,"end":3196.63,"text":"而是我們的年金它同時也是我們子孫的年金而且更是不會倒也不能倒的年金在這裡英九要說的也許未來的年金大家領到的比現在的略少可是可以讓大家放心的領30年讓我們的子孫也能夠領得到大家要對政府有信心"},{"start":3198.157,"end":3203.438,"text":"我甚少同意馬英九總統說過的話但是這一段我是同意的跟大家分享 謝謝好 謝謝陳培委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員宣導謝謝主席 有請任市長請任市長"},{"start":3229.806,"end":3251.513,"text":"委員長董事長早今天看到你們人總的報告說要合理調整各類人員的待遇我看了這個報告以後我心裡非常有感觸理由是我上個禮拜跑到谷關公務段去進行會勘來請人事長看一下這個谷關公務段"},{"start":3252.554,"end":3281.061,"text":"它所涵蓋的範圍從東勢新社然後仁愛然後和平可以說是第一個非常的偏遠第二個地勢非常的高那天我從台中高鐵站坐車子到合歡山隧道總共花了兩個半小時那跟我同行的同仁甚至還暈車出現了高山症的狀態"},{"start":3282.942,"end":3302.696,"text":"當然我上去合歡山隧道會刊有另外公務上面的目的但我在進行會刊的時候我就會去關心第一線同仁在那麼偏遠的地方又那麼高他們住在哪裡工作 勤務會不會非常的重"},{"start":3303.877,"end":3321.413,"text":"了解他們工作的狀況因為自己有去現場看過我才知道說第一個那裡真的滿辛苦的因為在台灣可能綜合包括了台八線然後八甲等等全部剛剛那個道路"},{"start":3322.214,"end":3349.98,"text":"我把它全部都畫出來了他們管轄的道路範圍大概從苗栗台中南投甚至到花蓮的交界工作非常非常的辛苦在了解他們工作的內容以後我就進一步問說因為我那天上去看的是谷關公務段的同仁負責我就問他們說你們谷關公務段現在有多少人"},{"start":3351.158,"end":3373.568,"text":"他跟我說大概20個左右我說你們預算原額有多少他跟我說大概40個左右我聽了嚇一大跳只有一半我第一個問題是你們一半的人做全部的事情同仁受得了嗎他給我的回答很直接留不住人"},{"start":3376.052,"end":3395.483,"text":"沒有人要一天到晚在高山上面做這麼繁重的工作當然我自己上去講得不好意思一點我是去給他們更多的工作因為用路人有需求希望合歡山隧道裡面要裝燈"},{"start":3397.778,"end":3424.314,"text":"這個牽涉到用路人安全的問題人命關天該做的事情我還是拜託他們做但是在另外一方面我聽到他們第一線工作現場的狀況我非常的擔心我非常的擔心只有一半的人要做全部的事情這個系統不是一個具有可維持性的系統這絕對不是sustainable"},{"start":3425.151,"end":3452.69,"text":"的一個系統因此我就去調了一下你們各個公務段職員人力的狀況我發現不管是股官 埔里 信義 大武這些比較偏遠比較高的地方人事長你看一下預算原額跟現有原額其實都有相當程度的落差代表的是什麼代表的是說我們立法院有給這樣的預算"},{"start":3454.229,"end":3469.476,"text":"就是有錢是有錢可以去請人的現實上就沒有這麼多人我的問題是針對這樣的現象我相信任市長應該有掌握我要請教你的是這個問題要怎麼解決繼續這樣下去嗎"},{"start":3474.697,"end":3492.739,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題事實上這個問題大概最近這幾年我也親自跑了很多的地方那委員所講的這些事情我感同身受那甚至在今年跟上一年我們也特別到沒有啦 我沒有要問你的感受我的問題要怎麼解決啦"},{"start":3493.54,"end":3517.065,"text":"好 我們目前採取的措施是針對土木工程這一類人他留不住我們第一個有給他額外的政治專業家籍還有專業的一些工程的獎金還有就是留任的獎金這三個什麼時候增加的應該七月 去年去年的七月就增加你覺得有用嗎"},{"start":3518.171,"end":3533.365,"text":"我覺得有一點效果可是因為整個市場的供需是效果沒有那麼我到現在啦因為你說你去年增加嘛那我今年去看結果還是這樣所以我才問你說你覺得有效果嗎"},{"start":3534.315,"end":3561.006,"text":"我剛才也跟委員報告過了有效果可是效果不是很顯著所以我們今年又增加在花東地區那裡的工程人員我們有分兩級一級一個月給八千另外第二級給三千我們希望用這一種再把待遇部分再拉伸的方式來留住更多的工務同仁我這樣講好了啦因為上去"},{"start":3561.846,"end":3589.737,"text":"我當然上去會勘是給他們增加工作增加工作也不是為了我自己是為了所有用路的人但是我也可以體會到他們在那邊工作的繁重已經根本沒有人要去那邊上班了因為你坐一趟車上去那個感受很直接我那時候問跟我一起會勘的同仁說你每天上下班要花多少時間他說大概三個小時"},{"start":3590.962,"end":3609.704,"text":"三個小時 最少三個小時開車一個半小時上去一個半小時回來而且不是平路喔是山路 在那邊轉來轉去就坐了會暈車的那一種那我想一下說哇 那每天三個小時那你為什麼不住在山上那不對啊 人家有家庭啊"},{"start":3610.78,"end":3625.3,"text":"他住在山上他的家人怎麼辦我們總是要幫人家設想所以我有答應他們要幫他們請命就是你們再去思考一下這種偏遠高山地區的地域家籍有沒有調整的空間"},{"start":3627.103,"end":3646.271,"text":"因為我查了一下資料高山偏遠地區的佳績我看一下你們人種112年的報告你們針對離島的佳績是有調整過可是高山跟偏遠地區我看到你們2023年的書面報告說是上一次調整是民國100年 2011年"},{"start":3649.712,"end":3671.432,"text":"這個報告的內容對不對還是這兩年高山偏遠地區的佳績有調整是我沒有掌握的我跟委員補充一個資訊就是針對大概有六七個縣市我們有提供一個合理化方案由整個縣市政府去評估它的location還有它用人對 你先回答我事實的問題因為你們上次的書面報告我看"},{"start":3672.633,"end":3700.512,"text":"這些偏遠地方的加擠上一次定的標準是民國100年7月1號生效過去這十幾年有調整過嗎這是偏遠加擠的部分是維持這樣可是我們有讓縣市政府多了一個Alternative另外一個現象就是一個合理化方案由這個合理化方案我舉一個很簡單的例子像在屏東地區屏東地區你在恆春半島的這個地方它的交通一定是"},{"start":3701.112,"end":3728.84,"text":"我現在就直接問因為你扯到地方政府我就聽不懂這些公務段的人他是屬於中央政府還是地方政府公務機關中央的他也可以使用他也一併適用就是合理化方案我聽不懂你跟地方政府有這個提供合理化方案問題是他就是隸屬在中央機關我想會後我們送一份資料給委員參考"},{"start":3729.625,"end":3754.464,"text":"你要送什麼資料給我參考人事長你注意聽我講一句話就好了顯然到目前為止我所收集整理出來的資料沒有錯啦偏遠地區的家具上一次調整定案是民國一百年嘛現在已經十幾年了嘛第二個我幫這一些高山偏遠地區的同仁請命實際上也有需要"},{"start":3755.902,"end":3775.854,"text":"因為員額就缺在那裡嘛我為了他們實際工作的狀況我自己也在想如果是我我願意來嗎如果是其他人其他人願意來嗎你一個月給三千塊要賺到這樣這樣子真的有提供足夠的誘因嗎所以我第一個"},{"start":3777.613,"end":3796.22,"text":"幫基層的同仁請命這件事情是不是可以請人事長人總回去再重新檢討一下第二個剛剛你說的是所謂的合理化方案你的意思是說這個合理化方案它取代了從100年以來到目前為止沒有調整的地域家籍嗎"},{"start":3798.148,"end":3819.293,"text":"我們就是整個待遇的制度變成更有彈性有些地方政府因為他有剛才我提了這個情況因為合理化方案就是給地方政府更多的彈性他的遊戲規則訂出來以後是否那個地區裡面的地方公務人員跟中央的地方公務人員一體適用"},{"start":3819.898,"end":3841.353,"text":"那對啊 你的數字就編在這裡啊他最多只是極速做調整嘛沒有 委員你之前說的那是偏遠高山加級那是一個機制在那裡另外我們還有一個叫做合理化方案對啊 但我講到底啦如果你的合理化方案有用的話我們今天就不會出現這個現況我說的應該沒錯吧"},{"start":3844.697,"end":3857.054,"text":"我覺得如果你的合理化方案有用啊我覺得我今天到那邊就不會出現這個現況嗎委員你說的 我們會再去檢討 再去調整因為最近我們也想去"},{"start":3859.743,"end":3875.509,"text":"針對這個偏遠地區還有高山地區的大意去做一個整體性的調整很好 其實我要你的我要的只有這句話啦因為我看不懂嘛從民國100年以後離島地區的有調整高山偏遠的沒有調整我就看不懂"},{"start":3876.249,"end":3902.201,"text":"理由是什麼因為你們離島的一直有調整當然離島的調整我沒意見 不要誤會說離島的不應該調整到時候陳雪生來找我算帳沒有 我完全沒有這個意思離島該調整就調整但問題是說離島的從100年以後你們陸陸續續一直調整上來高山偏遠的都沒有調整都沒有調整的狀況之下就造成上面缺額很嚴重這個是我看到的問題"},{"start":3903.359,"end":3923.292,"text":"因為有這個問題我看到那些同仁很辛苦我也不忍心那所以我必須要藉由質詢的時候公開的跟人事長幫他們請命100年從民國100年到現在沒有調整15年過去了啦15年過去了啦是時候重新調整檢討一下好不好"},{"start":3924.077,"end":3936.008,"text":"我答應委員我們會盡快來檢討這個部分OK 全部的人都聽到了下一個問題相同的狀況還不是只有一般的公務員"},{"start":3938.223,"end":3961.782,"text":"全國教師跟偏遠地區教師代理的比例我想這個數字非常清楚代理教師他們很辛苦那代理教師不應該是一個常態我相信大家都有共識即使全國教師我們看平均的比率大概有十幾但是到偏遠地區的時候高達百分之二十幾"},{"start":3962.754,"end":3991.944,"text":"甚至高達25%每四個老師有一個是代理教師 一樣偏遠地區啊 代理教師的比例非常的高衝擊學生的受教權這件事情我相信任市長不會否認吧我知道這件事情你知道這件事情嘛那你打算怎麼解決這個部分我想我再找教育部來跟他們看看他們有什麼政策再待意調整過後面我們再予以協助"},{"start":3993.055,"end":4011.675,"text":"因為在今年8月30號的時候教文的公聽會其實就有NGO的朋友說他過去是基層教師他提供一些建議跟觀察他以前在嘉義縣在符合發放資格的學校國中小只有20所"},{"start":4012.492,"end":4036.134,"text":"但是他們按照最新的偏遠地區學校名冊其實加以現在偏遠特偏極偏的學校總共有97所也就是其實有將近八成的學校是屬於偏遠地區可是我們卻沒有按月得到應該有的佳績來補貼這個是基層教師在立法院的公聽會所提出來的呼籲任市長有沒有聽到"},{"start":4038.174,"end":4058.243,"text":"事實上委員 這個我們上一年親自還去嘉義縣的那個廣華國小事實上是非常的偏僻啦 非常偏僻啦你還好意思說你去年有去 你去年有去人家今年一樣講一樣的事情 等於問題沒解決嘛我不是說我今年 我是說我今年有去 這是一個事實你看了之後做了什麼事"},{"start":4058.928,"end":4080.226,"text":"我們有跟嘉義縣政府去提因為他的財政的部分是地方政府要來cover這一塊那我們有請我們所以是嘉義縣政府不肯 地方政府的問題我也是地方政府的事情但是這件事要改革就是中央 郊友部跟地方都要做出來處理"},{"start":4081.038,"end":4107.694,"text":"好 你說齁 我今天質詢完你會去找教育部談嘛 對不對那談完了以後你們的會議的記錄跟結論可不可以送一份到我辦公室來因為我很關心這件事情啊因為這不只是公務員連教師都出現這樣的狀況那我們希望偏遠地區的小孩他們的受教權也充分受保障所以你跟教育部談完了以後你們的會議結論可不可以送一份到我辦公室來"},{"start":4109.233,"end":4133.014,"text":"這樣我才能確保你真的有去談真的有結論嘛不然你一定要在我面前說說我不會啦你面前說啦在後面那張我做不夠的好沒有關係你們會議的記錄跟結論真的談完了以後送一份到我辦公室來可以嗎可以喔好謝謝謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員接下來請林倩琪委員宣導"},{"start":4136.923,"end":4139.225,"text":"這樣就對了謝謝我們辛苦的張昌偉我請一下我們蘇仁市長請仁市長"},{"start":4151.058,"end":4162.602,"text":"委員長 董事長 你好修昇 我也是剛才黃委員在質詢 我很有共鳴的他在關心的整個議題 我也是很關心的所以你跟教育部說的那個結果也送給我一份 好不好我要呼應他的 是他對於偏鄉"},{"start":4169.504,"end":4184.586,"text":"非常的關心這個其實長久的問題本席對於原鄉還有有一些都會去比較偏鄉的部分也是在一些專業的一些技術人員"},{"start":4185.968,"end":4202.629,"text":"的這個佳績這也是本席在關心的但是今天本席因為有幾個主要的重點要跟你討論所以這也請你給大家關心一下尤其是原鄉剛才跟黃委員所講的很類似的問題其實一直在發生尤其是一些專技人員"},{"start":4204.071,"end":4224.165,"text":"所以改天要這個部分跟您好好的討論但是我先跟你要一個資料剛才黃委員這邊講的你在幾個偏眼地區的合理化方案這個部分的計畫是不是可以給本席一份所以因為其實本席關心的東西也有一些是重疊的所以未來可能還要再跟您做更深入一點討論好不好"},{"start":4226.304,"end":4243.521,"text":"會後會給委員 大概這個禮拜一定會給你所以那整個 你說六七個縣市你跟他們有這樣子一個合理化方案那本席來看看我們是不是可以一起找出問題然後把一些東西 至少中長期我們把它法制化這樣你們也省掉一些問題"},{"start":4245.303,"end":4265.299,"text":"所以今天我要跟你討論的 也是軍公教待遇這個調整的一個法治化因為現在的一個狀況 大家都會覺得有點黑箱但是我們有的東西法治化有一個依循 做到一個公平的機制這樣大家可能不會 比較不會經常有不同的想法 我們可以有一個最大的公約數"},{"start":4266.46,"end":4291.6,"text":"所以今天整個就是這長期以來軍公教的待遇的調整比較沒有一個法制化的基礎程序上感覺不太透明所以呼應到今年在八月份的時候行政院就拍板說明年軍公教的人員不調薪教育部同事來舉辦的軍公教員工待遇調整的座談會"},{"start":4293.241,"end":4314.975,"text":"雖然你們說是傾聽基層 凝聚共識但是很多教育團體都表達不滿他們說這根本不是協調 純粹是摸頭大會來強調行政跟開放政府的時候大家會覺得這有點形式主義因為講了半天 最後的結果離大家的期待有很大的一段距離所以軍公教其實在這個部分非常失望"},{"start":4317.097,"end":4331.434,"text":"可能座談會本身問題不是那麼大但是呢 大家會感覺背後有一點黑箱 因為沒法治所以在這個軍公教待遇審議的委員會裡面其實是握有具體的建議權但是重點是"},{"start":4332.515,"end":4353.733,"text":"你們排除了這個基層代表的一個參與這個是有參與的這個人員他們所講的一個狀況那審議最後的結果是行政院在拍板那這個攸關十多萬軍公教人員的這個重要制度如果沒有法治基礎的運作那就每年就會有一些變化所以呢這個任市長為什麼跟你請教兩個核心的問題"},{"start":4354.574,"end":4380.086,"text":"就是說這個條新誰來決定依據什麼標準來決定會這樣講就是說因為沒有目前這個條新的審議沒有明確的法條規範也沒有固定的計算公式條幅的大小常常都會看政府的所謂你們所說的財政跟政治氣氛你們常說財政不好就沒有辦法處理但是其實真正的核心是我們怎麼樣讓財政變好"},{"start":4382.187,"end":4403.605,"text":"但是一般百姓關心的就是法制化的基礎上大家對於未來比較可以有期待也可以了解未來的一些變化我們怎麼去因應我們不希望每年都看政府的財政跟政治的氣氛這樣的制度有點違反公開的原則跟我們民主政治也有點相悖所以"},{"start":4404.526,"end":4419.431,"text":"其實你們在去年有承諾2024年底你們完成這個條新的法制化但是我想你可能會告訴我說現在還卡在行政院我不知道是不是你待會可以給我一個回應我們看到這個感覺法制化的一個承諾"},{"start":4420.471,"end":4445.57,"text":"現在已經2025年底了好像又要跳票了對於軍公教的調整都這樣可以延宕我們政府怎麼樣呼籲民間企業來為勞工來加薪所以本席認為要恢復軍公教信任跟制度的穩定應該有兩個改革第一個是調新的法制化這樣能夠確保基層的權益第二個是機制要專業化確保能夠抗通膨"},{"start":4446.511,"end":4473.809,"text":"所以我簡單說明一下軍公教人員待遇調整的草案目前趕快送來立法院我們要明確規範審議委員會的組織職權跟運作方式而且要納入一定比例的基層代表讓軍公教人員能夠預期調薪的時間條件跟幅度不要年年在感覺上好像依賴高層的上億"},{"start":4476.731,"end":4491.361,"text":"接下來就是現行的制度要能夠採物價指數這個部分目前沒辦法好好的反映生活的成本所以過去13年我們的經濟成長已經達了43.04%但是民生物價漲了26.63%最低工資漲了51.56%但是軍工銷條薪剛14%而已所以實質的購買力都已經被通膨吞噬掉"},{"start":4503.248,"end":4518.292,"text":"剛才我們說到 如果要加薪留財但是軍公教感覺上好像實質減薪這樣子的雙重標準大家很難依循所以今年那個調薪的法制化有沒有可能在這個會期送到立法院"},{"start":4520.489,"end":4548.788,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會來討論那個條帶法之外我們在上一年12月17號已經經過政務委員審議那現在坦白講就是躺在行政院欠缺最後一里路現在就是last mile現在就是last milelast mile有在行政院走好久喔因為最近國內的大事情比較多所以我們一直在那裡cue那我們也期待說"},{"start":4550.73,"end":4570.709,"text":"我也希望他可以順順地來啦啊 第二就是剛才委員現在還在行政院對不對你去年12月就送出來現在還在行政院嘛 對不對就來不及因為產線有限所以大家要去排好啦 感謝啦你替行政院在講話啦但是拜託好不好請議長還是你們這裡"},{"start":4572.89,"end":4596.321,"text":"很多東西我聽起來 大家都覺得卡在行政院這樣大家年年都在期待 當時還可以真的完成最後一條路我三五年都有去拜託但是 極限也比較多極限的應該也不少所以我只好就是用等待來喚起我的夢想的實現"},{"start":4599.384,"end":4616.5,"text":"另外剛才委員關心的就是這個整個條帶法治法的部分我們大概未來會有一個諮詢委員會那諮詢委員會裡面大概會有你本身說的一定的代表基層的代表可以納入嗎差不多有兩層那有兩層是基層的代表"},{"start":4617.02,"end":4630.355,"text":"就兩聲啦 真正請聽我們記者的心聲啦剛才委員在提就是說每次的開會大家的表現的方式當然每一個人的期望值都不一樣"},{"start":4631.977,"end":4647.732,"text":"如果是一般的教師代表希望大家每年都可以調然後今年在談的時候也有人說該何時調10% 20%每一個人期望你自己可以判斷你如果有法治基礎就有一個公約數對不對"},{"start":4650.995,"end":4667.428,"text":"那個法治基礎是基本本但是大家標示意見所以我們會有一些參考的一個剛才委員有特別提到你說的是這個參考的價值嘛基本上十幾年來 二十幾年來你們可以抓一個基準嘛這個部分應該是你們可以做的嘛所以今天本市的訴求就兩個啦一個法治化 然後納入基層的代表的一個比例"},{"start":4678.336,"end":4679.516,"text":"有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":4705.712,"end":4708.634,"text":"但是我們還是以民為主主要這都是民間的人民的問題我們還是要積極來處理好不好拜託 今天這兩件好不好剛才黃國昌委員說的我們地方的家籍"},{"start":4721.521,"end":4734.191,"text":"這其實都是基層的問題你們覺得整個施政基層的問題我們很大一部分都沒有解決嗎我們一起加油都有解決 只是說一直有新的議題出來好啦 法治化啦 好不好讓大家有一個公平的基礎 好不好好"},{"start":4737.574,"end":4761.112,"text":"好 代理 我很快的跟你講一下這是跟你們內部有點關係我知道你是資訊專業你們上個月發生一件系統測試的問題跟台北市政府你們在台北市政府你們把APP推播台北市停班停課瞬間在平台 大家就很困惑剛剛你們台北市政府有說"},{"start":4762.353,"end":4776.509,"text":"是你們的人事總署看國家災害教育科學中心在民生市井公開資料平台上測試但是重點是你們沒有說測試所以大家都叫是真的因為在上班日"},{"start":4777.37,"end":4794.177,"text":"結果你們就在中央和地方就在說我們本來以前就有測試但是你們以前如果測試你們都有放測試的字眼但是現在你們台北市可能上的時候你們不可以再測試你會說什麼地方自己要自動爬取錯誤任市長你資訊專業你覺得這樣說會過嗎"},{"start":4798.278,"end":4813.95,"text":"我跟委員報告一下以前寫的測試是用中文寫的測試現在要自動化以後我們寫TEST你怎麼跟人家說現在TEST你怎麼跟每一個人說TEST不是每一個人都知道TEST是什麼意思所以這一件事情後來我們有跟國科會去拜託負責的要去建構"},{"start":4825.299,"end":4839.306,"text":"一個正式作業區 還有一個測試區讓大家正式的就不會去放掉了對啦 任市長 你想的會比較大啦想的會比較專業不不不 我跟你說很簡單的啦你說這個 你有什麼Test 大家自動跳過不好意思 如果平常是大家看測試你這個要Test 你也要確定每一個層級都知道Test 是什麼意思我跟你說一個例子啦 今天比較開心的啦"},{"start":4851.832,"end":4869.482,"text":"不好意思我們就用吳宗憲委員的很創意的做法我來跟你講一下今天我們在簽名怎麼有一個我自己以為那個是東南亞文但是我有確認我就問議事人員說這裡是什麼人結果是吳宗憲委員非常遵循宴會的傳統"},{"start":4873.644,"end":4889.694,"text":"所以他簽的字是直的我們平常都看委員會給我們的這個格式是橫的我如果沒有問我可能剛剛可能有找到什麼人到最後自己確認光是我一個人這件事情就會產生這麼大的誤差了你那些測試你不可以"},{"start":4891.655,"end":4912.709,"text":"說大家的生意都要天氣好跟你資訊專業一樣都可以了解所以這間臺北市政府創作這麼大條事後又說我們要自己爬梳這樣對不對要檢討好不好所以重點就是安全告知跟雙重確認的制度我們要好好檢討事情發生以後中央跟地方一起來處理好不好"},{"start":4916.773,"end":4926.681,"text":"謝謝林倩琦委員下次你如果全程的話多給你兩分鐘接下來我們請王逸川委員詢答你如果英文給三分"},{"start":4941.693,"end":4946.157,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請任市長請任市長委員長好 任市長早最近我有看到台北市議員提出來說首都的公務員要有加級你有看過這個新聞嗎"},{"start":4966.141,"end":4989.049,"text":"這個問題其實我們內部也有討論幾個檔案那就是有一點類似裁劃法那個定義還有範圍就是每一個人都要你知道他的概念就是你首都是台北市還是雙北都要算市你如果說台北市有進來新北市也沒進來一定大家一定更挑那我請問一下這個"},{"start":4991.346,"end":5001.262,"text":"雙北啦 雙北有哪些哪一類的公務員哪幾類公務員都想要逃離雙北想要調到別的地方你有沒有概念雙北喔"},{"start":5006.536,"end":5023.759,"text":"是雙北做什麼套路的 他應該是公務人員他很想要調去中南部的如果調不走的 都會找名義代表說可以把我們調回去中南部你說的那個有可能是警消吧對 就是警消他為什麼要去中南部"},{"start":5029.815,"end":5049.225,"text":"有些是絕對有些是相對南部這方面的loading會比較少的就是因為雙北高樓大廈跟江湘熱油風險係數比較高這一塊對你們來說這個有在思考這些的加級要更多嗎"},{"start":5050.665,"end":5074.678,"text":"針對景蕭的部分從以前到現在一直有所謂的景情加擠 繁重加增沒有 我是說這個雙北啦你說所有的公布另外沒有啦 就是景蕭啦景蕭有啊 本來就是六都的部分都有一套很嚴謹的制度不是六都啦 就雙北啦我們是用六都來算因為我們有台北市的想要調回去台南市嘛"},{"start":5076.449,"end":5092.705,"text":"他如果都不走,他就死去找人家找什麼他自己也知道他分手不夠,就很多警校他覺得他自己年輕警校他也知道他分數不夠嘛總是父母啊,都會想說,我剛好回來故鄉啦我剛好在台北,沒人照顧啦,怎麼樣怎麼樣理由一大堆啦,他就是因為雙白業務比較繁重啦"},{"start":5099.264,"end":5121.784,"text":"我說請這個人事總署思考一下像這種東西怎麼留住人在雙北這第一個第二個我們很多公務員剛考上的時候可能各單位任用公務員大學畢業考公務員最想都要想要到中央機關因為他到中央機關以後叫長官"},{"start":5122.83,"end":5142.267,"text":"到去縣市政府 到去公所的時候好 都大到不妙的 都坐頂館可以的 可能是他們學長也是可以的就對了好 那這一些公所的我現在就問公所 公所的公務人員你知道公所的公務人員流動率高還是低啊其實流動率不高 因為他要找頭腦派出好 那公所有沒有哪一類的公務員"},{"start":5151.792,"end":5154.354,"text":"差不多做一兩年他就想要快點賺那這些人有沒有考慮再給他加點薪水讓他心無旁騖"},{"start":5169.295,"end":5190.982,"text":"加薪的部分我們是用整體的角度除非它是在偏遠地區 很偏的我們有另外讓他來額外的加級不然一般土木的就是土木的那你們那個加級表不是可以動嗎有啦 最近我們有在討論其實用這個機會 委員報告就是說針對土木工程因為外面的營建的薪水比較高"},{"start":5198.905,"end":5226.719,"text":"官媒做啦我們有做一些努力就是政治專業家籍還有他的留任獎金你如果做一年第二年之後你給他三萬你如果做三年第四年之後一年給他五萬我們都有做 還有他的獎金會扭開那是我們定義的同歸那他有技師建築師資格的這個有家籍嗎沒有 請教訓民沒有我建議要啦"},{"start":5227.559,"end":5253.911,"text":"因為喔 蠻多六都的都發局啊負責建造 省造這些單位啊他一些人都有建築師資格那他每天就在那邊發那些照嘛其實他去外面當建築師更好賺他就是想要公務員資格那你把他好好留住啊他有這一些專門職業技術人員證照考慮一下考慮一下 要把他們留下來看這個加級表可以調整一下沒有啦"},{"start":5254.755,"end":5265.146,"text":"好啦 你們回去研究啦 不跟你講第二個 最近怎麼會有那什麼公立醫院的醫師啊什麼加班一年九百幾塊那是怎麼回事啊我覺得他的呈現的方式大概應該是一般會的那種啦"},{"start":5276.131,"end":5301.09,"text":"執班會 特勤病院都不可能在蘇聯的台南機密沒有 是說公立的公家的特勤病院看它的基金也它有一套內部的一個機制所以就會有很多的雖然都是公家機關每一個醫院的執班會應該是不可能的就弄到弄到這個醫師他就年輕他也不可以執班以前醫界很簡單年輕人要執班執班可以賺多一點"},{"start":5306.087,"end":5327.427,"text":"現在那個值班 什麼一小時九百幾個他就說這樣我幾期了 我不值班啊那就會造成可能急診啊 各式各樣的這個醫師人力不足嘛那我有看你們的報告也寫說你們要對這些公立醫療機構的這些人的專業家籍的數額要調整嘛這個是做法是什麼"},{"start":5332.833,"end":5360.566,"text":"我今年其實是已經外掉了因為這個部分坦白講我們現在有各類型的人物各類型的那樣扮演的角色你想說在公家機關的這些公職的醫師還有護書護書 他的業定費都差不多一兩百塊到一千五百六我們也都會逐漸的去看看整個人力供需的需求"},{"start":5361.426,"end":5375.836,"text":"會去調整好 我是建議這樣因為你們很有可能有人反應你們就去檢討你像我剛才問你的土木的建築師 土木技師你就可以去檢討嘛檢討之後說這個立委在問 要不要調整一下另外一個立委來說我看那個也要調 你就去想"},{"start":5381.363,"end":5397.016,"text":"我覺得這樣啦 就是按照公序啦就是說奇怪 這個類科啊現在報考人數怎麼真的越來越少然後呢有一些奇怪 都大量要調動就幾位都會想要照 幾位都會想要照可能年輕人他來做幾年他發現說可以照 趕快來照就是要申請調動那他要申請調動的時候呢用人機關發了函來給這個原來的機關嘛我們現在有一個規定說你要不要趕快告訴人家"},{"start":5411.97,"end":5430.925,"text":"從這裡的跡象應該可以顯示哪一些類科需要在這些東西上做調整那這個我覺得人事單位你們要有一個監測的計畫就是監看 看這個東西到底是注意數字的變化然後趕快來做因應"},{"start":5431.975,"end":5453.941,"text":"其實我委員報告其實我們做兩件事第一件就是每一年我們會去看每一個直系的流動力的問題然後我們大概會五年會重新再做深入的一個分析你想說土木那就是我們這幾年分析出來中央跟地方尤其是在鄉鎮公所做土木的"},{"start":5454.841,"end":5468.792,"text":"那個政治風險太高所以他差不多兩三年他就要走要走之後 他走一段是去民間 公共機關到花園裡面最少有三分之一到一半 又停課"},{"start":5470.049,"end":5494.942,"text":"定課分化來中央因為中央比較安全中央比較安全地方風險比較高我們都有做這樣的一個分析所以我們從那個分析裡面我們會去做一些待遇的調整或者其他的配套甚至我們也跟考試院考選部去溝通你想說今年各課土木的入期率差不多要50%"},{"start":5496.621,"end":5518.556,"text":"以前不太管因為欠了很多所以我們要去合調入企率一定要拉高不然這個人力切口一直越來越大其實我們都是長期性的有些是每年有些是兩三年有些是五年會做一個不同層級的分析那這些離職了 調動了你們有再去跟他們座談 問卷了解說他們有什麼要做嗎"},{"start":5526.757,"end":5528.939,"text":"土木的我們會拜託那個公共工程委員會"},{"start":5544.018,"end":5565.606,"text":"原來他待了那個機關的他的直接的主管問卷也許可以從那裡開始比如說一方面他可能講說這原來這個要離開這個人他個人的問題可能是一個原因那第二種可能就是說對這個位置人常常要離開原因是什麼就是說這一些了解完之後也許你們比較好做決定"},{"start":5566.664,"end":5583.682,"text":"委員報告啦 其實那個離子我都有請他做一個離子問卷啦但是有的 不好意思 都要說家庭因素啦大家家庭因素 都要等於孝順父母啊他是沒有寫到那裡有啦 是都寫家庭因素有啦 問卷我都有沒有就是說除了他本人啦"},{"start":5584.266,"end":5590.127,"text":"他直接上去的那個長官 最清楚 他是科員你就問他的股長 問他的科長 大家知道狀況因為如果你不記名的話 這些人會願意寫說對啦 我這位差不多兩年就換了 都會換人他們大家找的理由 我跟你們中央說 答案是這樣 所以你們要注意你去問那個個人 他當然給你的理由 他年高他就要找他70年"},{"start":5607.861,"end":5619.828,"text":"可是那個他的長官因為怕下面沒有人所以他一定會寫實話這一塊你們再加強一下讓你們比較後面比較好做決策好 謝謝你 謝謝謝謝王一川委員的質詢為了大家的安全身體健康我都給您控制在85分貝以下超過85這個會影響你的耳朵"},{"start":5637.578,"end":5663.617,"text":"那其實今天你看我們這個二氧化碳是1643 這也不對超過1000的話頭會痛 會想嘔吐這個溫度又好像太低這個是1643就超過六成 超過1000這可能委員會這個地方也要特別注意一下這可能每一個委員會都沒有注意這個啦所以我在主持 你看大家都很平和因為很快超過85個接下來就我們羅志強委員來詢問"},{"start":5673.94,"end":5686.287,"text":"謝謝主席有請人事長請人事長委員長早安人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國十大對"},{"start":5690.987,"end":5718.54,"text":"大概高速公路嘛 中鋼 中船中鋼 中船 中正國際機場機場 大概是以交通為主體的啦以交通為主體 還有一些產業的還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛 還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠"},{"start":5720.902,"end":5727.985,"text":"我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益"},{"start":5731.172,"end":5757.218,"text":"那就是孩子要當大人就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資對 第一個是抵抗當時石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的"},{"start":5757.638,"end":5782.012,"text":"一些原料的自主度降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人"},{"start":5785.336,"end":5808.779,"text":"大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人"},{"start":5810.666,"end":5829.574,"text":"那位都沒出名 他就漸漸做了我跟人事長說 就是你啦你知道嗎就是跟你一樣奉公守法 兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員 對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策對不對"},{"start":5830.92,"end":5847.509,"text":"公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來沒錯他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年"},{"start":5848.686,"end":5876.971,"text":"你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對"},{"start":5879.301,"end":5901.518,"text":"目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些"},{"start":5904.34,"end":5932.62,"text":"醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區包括台積電當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇 李國鼎很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰"},{"start":5935.563,"end":5959.84,"text":"你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這一些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛 KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會"},{"start":5962.423,"end":5971.681,"text":"給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎"},{"start":5972.813,"end":6001.627,"text":"因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎"},{"start":6003.429,"end":6011.897,"text":"當時的公務員說實在的話任市長你也是一路公務員上來對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業對不對"},{"start":6014.575,"end":6036.094,"text":"穩定啦 光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟人事長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後"},{"start":6036.687,"end":6052.143,"text":"我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有 我被骂为什么要进国家警官代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点"},{"start":6053.871,"end":6077.056,"text":"就是事實上在過去的我們的所謂的政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎"},{"start":6081.943,"end":6104.352,"text":"整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性"},{"start":6105.666,"end":6120.586,"text":"你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關"},{"start":6121.997,"end":6138.566,"text":"基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我就是問你一件事跟以前 跟20年前 跟30年前不用講 跟10年前好了 相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎"},{"start":6140.855,"end":6162.23,"text":"我觉得换个角度来看以前选择的机会会比较少所以很多人选择当老师公务人员因为生活比较安定现在选择也比较多所以我想以前选择也很多有些经济蓬勃发展的过程当中商业环境优渥还是很多不一样的选择"},{"start":6162.91,"end":6191.995,"text":"那我拿一個客觀數據 因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人 最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛 對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少"},{"start":6195.559,"end":6214.62,"text":"16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成耶"},{"start":6215.765,"end":6231.492,"text":"我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有 沒錯吧"},{"start":6232.933,"end":6253.629,"text":"沒有到七成 大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊 沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講"},{"start":6256.972,"end":6280.657,"text":"你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎"},{"start":6281.894,"end":6305.041,"text":"我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛在的角度來看我跟任市長講 你知道我向來不為難你你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬 50萬"},{"start":6307.279,"end":6321.381,"text":"你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金"},{"start":6322.595,"end":6344.864,"text":"今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了我講白了 人事長你做人事長"},{"start":6346.263,"end":6364.384,"text":"公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的責損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇"},{"start":6365.245,"end":6382.114,"text":"他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的刪減 削減的時候他當然降低了他對職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦"},{"start":6383.656,"end":6408.779,"text":"當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢"},{"start":6409.66,"end":6420.762,"text":"所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革 謝謝"},{"start":6424.846,"end":6447.397,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員這個召委主持不只要讓意識順暢我要注意大家的健康我剛看到一直飆從1600降到1100那個二氧化碳要1000ppm你剛到1100那現在又上去了這奇怪的窗戶都已經打開了"},{"start":6450.054,"end":6462.823,"text":"超過一千六人會嘔吐 會頭暈 會胸悶我要注意大家的健康是不是再打開一個窗戶好不好因為那個又到一千四 這個就比較奇怪了是啊 因為今天大家都想想 你看人事長說到要打鼓 咨詢的啊大家說要睡著了這個就很怪 這個就很怪應該是這個議場這樣 主席有義務啊"},{"start":6480.44,"end":6496.581,"text":"不是我是真的是在盯那個CO2那個二氧化碳的等一下看看王宏威委員在質詢的時候會不會再降下來我們現在請王宏威委員尋答"},{"start":6508.546,"end":6529.56,"text":"謝謝主席提醒我之前還不曉得我們有這個CO2的這個監測以後我們應該要做有氧運動你一上台馬上降了已經降到1400一下那我們努力維持比較好的這個空氣品質讓大家都能夠神清氣爽一點好謝謝主席我們請人事長請蘇人事長"},{"start":6534.383,"end":6535.925,"text":"委員長早好 委員長早有一個議題蠻重要的就是我們在上個會期通過了幾個對於包含現役軍人以及退伍軍人的一些優先法案"},{"start":6552.065,"end":6559.068,"text":"當然對於現役軍人的加薪非常遺憾而且我們還是要強力譴責即便是總統府公告之後但是行政院拒不編列預算但是同一時期我們所"},{"start":6567.952,"end":6595.168,"text":"通過的也就是對於退出的退役的上校以上子女的教育補助那這部分行政院有編列預算所以我也不曉得行政院為什麼採取一個很奇怪的雙標因為當時包含現役軍人的加薪以及對於退役上校以上子女補助教育補助事實上我們是同時通過的"},{"start":6596.929,"end":6614.481,"text":"那麼行政院選擇性的來編列預算好 那所以這個有關於退役上校以上子女教育補助已經經過總統府公告而且我也特別去查你們也有編列預算"},{"start":6615.422,"end":6633.733,"text":"然後我們退府會事實上所通過的這個預告的發起辦法裡面呢也還特別強調是今年8月底就應該執行那當然這個我們雖然它的其實"},{"start":6635.154,"end":6649.591,"text":"他的對象不像是現役軍人嘉興這麼廣但是無論如何這是我們對於這個退休退役的上校以上尤其是當時是上校退休的好的一個這個"},{"start":6652.074,"end":6670.63,"text":"的一個幫助那現在以現在的進度來講聽說是卡在我們人種這邊那我想請問一下為什麼我們人種為什麼到現在因為如果你這邊OK的話人種OK的話行政院照理講應該會核定這個退府會這個辦法所以我想請問一下人種的考慮是什麼"},{"start":6679.437,"end":6694.726,"text":"我謝謝委員給我這個時間因為人總不會卡這種案子因為之前不會卡我們之前一直在跟退伍會跟教育部在溝通就是說當要處理那個子女教卜的問題"},{"start":6696.047,"end":6723.701,"text":"我們必須要同時考慮到進攻教這些退役的軍人還有教師還有公務人員那後來經過整個我們精算之後退伍費這裡大概需要一年大概五千多萬嘛對 當時我們也有算過這個大約需要的經費教育跟公務人員的部分加起來大概1.8%大概一年增加的額度大概2.38%那2.38%坦白講 預算金額是不大"},{"start":6724.321,"end":6752.466,"text":"那屬於中央的部分會中央來支付現在唯一比較有問題的就是有些地方政府他地方政府要編列這個預算來支應這一個部分所以現在整個案子還在我們外交國防法務處那邊所以那個人事長的意思就是說如果把公教人員也納進來的話Total全部加起來是2.38億"},{"start":6755.58,"end":6761.209,"text":"對不對 2.38億人長的意思說其實這個金額是可以可負擔的"},{"start":6761.817,"end":6780.929,"text":"可是現在問題是在地方政府的部分因為屬於地方政府的部分地方政府我們必須要去協商因為大家也知道地方政府你額外要請沒有錯我知道因為對於地方政府來說地方政府現在最擔心的就是常常是中央請客然後是地方買單其實非常非常多所以這個地方政府的財政是確實可以去考量的"},{"start":6791.556,"end":6807.325,"text":"在考量所謂的就是說把公教人員也加進來之前我也想跟人事長做一個溝通為什麼我們會優先優先對於退役上校的子女先做補助"},{"start":6808.425,"end":6820.003,"text":"因为来我们来看一下我们也去查过公教人员呢因为公教人员有他的退休办法强制退休办法基本上呢他的强制退休呢是年满65岁"},{"start":6822.222,"end":6846.739,"text":"而且是任職滿五年但是對軍人他比較不一樣軍人的強制退休事實上就是說他如果在職務上他沒有辦法再晉級的話事實上他就必須退休所以相對軍人的退休的年齡事實上是比公教人員低很多的"},{"start":6847.159,"end":6862.704,"text":"我們今天來看 如果說我們看公教人員平均的退休年齡男性跟女性大概都是59歲上下平均年齡 平均退休年齡但是如果我們看到上校級的"},{"start":6863.724,"end":6880.896,"text":"上校級的退休年齡他就是在50歲以下大概將近49歲所以就是已經就是比他還年輕10歲就必須要退休所以這也是為什麼當時我們要推出這個修法最主要的就因為"},{"start":6881.596,"end":6910.264,"text":"如果你是將軍退休其實那個時候他的子女說實在已經大部分並不需要教育補助了因為他的年齡的關係但是很多的退役上校那個時間正好是他壯年的時候他又必須強制退休所以這個是我們必須要跟人種去做這樣的溝通我是認為說既然我們在明年行政院也編列了預算"},{"start":6911.204,"end":6940.528,"text":"退府會也把這個發起辦法也通通都修好了那麼我們至少要讓他明年可以正式的開始上路那您剛剛講的對公教人員我在這邊也感謝任總把公教人員也把他納入來考量現在唯一的是希望就是跟地方政府來做溝通因為公教是必須要地方政府"},{"start":6940.808,"end":6948.274,"text":"也要出錢所以也像我們現在不是在修正才化法我們一直在講就是說如果行政院把才化法把中央跟地方之間的權責能夠講得更清楚而且說實在這次會講說給地方這麼多錢然後你地方沒有分擔什麼相關的業務但是事實上我剛才講的就是過去長期以來"},{"start":6967.871,"end":6986.694,"text":"中央請客中央有很多的政策一下去都是地方在買單因為我知道人事長其實跟很多的地方的縣市首長也很熟我相信他們也一定有這樣抱怨尤其在財政比較困難的縣市所以"},{"start":6987.478,"end":7008.755,"text":"我支持剛才人事長所講的把它擴及到公教人員我講就是說尤其像這個我們軍人在你退休的時候是壯年然後你最需要用錢的時候你又可能還要去找其他工作但是小孩又在就學這個時候政府應該要給予"},{"start":7011.937,"end":7033.197,"text":"照顾尤其我们现在讲国防任性国防任性我们现在这么缺兵对不对这么缺兵那如何能够让军人认为国家真的可以照顾到你的这个家庭你也可以都能照顾子女的教育也都能够照顾好所以那么任市长我想请问那你们什么时候可以核定呢"},{"start":7036.644,"end":7065.114,"text":"這個核定權應該不是在人總目前還在行政院外交國防法務處當然但是現在說卡在人總沒有卡在人總因為人總沒有不會去卡人家的我們都是在協助人家去把一些事情趕快更順暢不過這裡利用這個機會跟委員提一下當初公務人員他可以退休子女教卜"},{"start":7065.754,"end":7085.067,"text":"它本來是在它的月退休奉要25,000以下後來就是調到28,000可是在上效的部分因為我們有初步推估上效的它的一個月退休奉大概接近5萬左右兩邊有一點落差所以為了"},{"start":7086.189,"end":7100.609,"text":"橫平性的考量所以那時候上校指你的退伏的部分我們就是在整個年改制度的設計裡面有做一些設計現在的時空環境不一樣我想會大家再來對話"},{"start":7102.051,"end":7122.851,"text":"所以人事長的意思也是說我們現在讓軍人就是退役軍人上校以上能夠補助子女教育補助所以我們現在行政院的政策方向也是讓公教人員同一個這個值等的也把他拉上來是不是也一樣就是也一樣做這個"},{"start":7139.505,"end":7159.914,"text":"提高到五萬塊其實我要講的就是我們現在因為剛才也有很多委員關心年改的問題我們在年改裡面其實就已經一國好幾制了"},{"start":7160.894,"end":7187.812,"text":"其實就已經一國好幾制這為什麼在講說尤其這個所得替代率的部分比如說我們願意給軍人軍人所得替代率比較好那這個其實也是就是考慮到軍人付出而且以我們現階段大家希望能夠更多的這個軍人現在大家不要說現在連木兵也有問題不要增兵然後再加上不要說這個什麼散兵問題連木兵都有問題了"},{"start":7190.373,"end":7217.681,"text":"所以我覺得在這是人事長所考慮的我同意我同意但是我希望這個既然第一個立法院通過總統公告然後那個行政院編列預算然後那個退府會也發起辦法全部都已經都已經完備在這樣的狀況之下至少至少明年明年1月他一定要上路一定要上路人事長同不同意"},{"start":7220,"end":7225.842,"text":"這個決定請不是在我這裡我知道啦但是你的意見很重要但是我們公教人員我們也會支持啦我們也會支持就如同剛才任市長所講的2.38億我們多多照顧一下我們的軍人尤其最近新的國安問題就是教師的"},{"start":7244.389,"end":7273.209,"text":"这个已经是完全的缺人了就已经有人才荒非常大的一个人才那以我时间外我只问一件事我再问一件事情就是我们10月10号开始上路的就是这个身心架我刚才讲就说像教师人员他也有我们现在出现了国外问题教师难求教师难找因为大量的缺"},{"start":7274.17,"end":7290.596,"text":"教師使得現在第一線的教師他的壓力特別特別的大他的時間也特別特別的長所以很快也不是說很快現在教師就成了另外一個血汗的產業那我想請問一下那麼身心調試價已經正式上路了嗎11月10號"},{"start":7296.098,"end":7319.076,"text":"好 那到目前為止 人事長所了解這個身心條是這樣上路之後現在公務員敢請嗎 有請假嗎我跟委員報告大概我們第一年我們大概會每一個月請各個我們會去統計這個資料在每一個月的20號 那目前因為今年10月今天是10月29號"},{"start":7320.197,"end":7348.432,"text":"所以我们在下一个月的20号会统计大概每一个月的20号我们会去做一次统计的资料做一次统计看各个对 看看多少人请那个身心调试假然后随时做动态性的调整我们在网站上做揭露因为我觉得这样资讯透明公开会比较好一点对 因为其实很多人都认为身心调试假是需要的但是因为它并入试假又感觉好像"},{"start":7350.273,"end":7374.27,"text":"這個好像有點不夠到位所以就是說我們現在每個月都會去做一個統計這樣也很好了讓我們各單位你是各單位還是全部全部把它一起統計我們全國會做一個統計我覺得你們也應該用各單位來做因為我們也要了解一下各單位會不會有哪一些單位要請身心調適價特別多"},{"start":7376.284,"end":7399.542,"text":"這也是我一種監看喔基本上大概行政院會二級機關然後二十二個縣市政府先這樣因為假如每一個單位它由縣市政府再往下會有二級 三級機關構這樣可能數量會太多對 我覺得你做一個大致性的這樣子我們也比較知道哪一些單位的我們的公務人員我們必須要多關心一點"},{"start":7403.966,"end":7420.084,"text":"那我觉得当然有一些比如说是比较特殊性例如像现在就是我们在防疫的部分非洲猪瘟防疫也许防疫人员他们可能身心就比较压力会比较大一些他可能有的是有季节性的"},{"start":7420.464,"end":7430.689,"text":"有的是有事件性的有的突發性等等讓我們能夠多關心一下我們基層公務人員他們現在的身心狀況所以我覺得到時候也拜託身心價也就教職人員的部分你們來想想看怎麼樣讓我們可以去關心第一線的教職人員我剛才在講的這個是"},{"start":7444.375,"end":7469.754,"text":"我們這麼多在教育我們把我們的孩子放到我們的學校裡面我們當然希望我們的老師是身心健康的我從以前當議員的時候就有很多老師學校跟我講老師都在吃百憂解所以我的意思就是說我們應該對這第一線多關懷一些多關懷一些比如說我講的防疫人員現在他是因為有事件性的"},{"start":7470.254,"end":7496.453,"text":"那如果教室它是長期的一年四季一年365天它都有這樣的一個身心應該要紓解的問題那就值得我們更加重視人事長你是要補充這個我看你現在笑得很開心沒有就是教室的部分我們會請教育部去把這樣的資訊也跟我們一樣我們公務員的部分我們會處理教育的部分我們會通知教育部請教育部好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7497.867,"end":7525.878,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員你看又降了300所以這個窗戶打開是有用的來 接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答那我先做一個會議程序的預告我們稍後在翁曉琳委員詢答完畢以後休息五分鐘那我們現在請思瑤委員好 辛苦的召委感謝請任市長請任市長"},{"start":7530.646,"end":7556.69,"text":"委員長今天有兩個主題跟您交換一下意見非常多委員都關心身心調試假終於10月10日上路了作為在立法院一路催生身心調試假的立委我從教育部門推到公務部門當然下一個努力我們希望進入民間的企業那這個制度現在現行是併入試假我當然認為先求有再求好"},{"start":7557.523,"end":7571.034,"text":"那我也非常鼓勵也要拜託勇敢的去宣傳我們告訴所有的公務同仁不要讓自己的權利睡著了請了身心調試假大家要記得主觀館們不能夠對請身心調試假"},{"start":7575.197,"end":7599.982,"text":"的同仁們貼上任何歧視性的標籤反而應當要給更多的關懷這就是我們為什麼設置了身心調適價這個進步性的新價別那當然從公部門推到私部門一向以來都是我們在各項權益扶植的一個路徑公部門先行"},{"start":7600.583,"end":7604.635,"text":"推廣到私部門下業我們自己來做好的典範"},{"start":7605.819,"end":7633.549,"text":"但是我看到這個消息跟新聞我真的是很開心因為育嬰留庭假明年要上路優先勞動部啟動了勞動部推動育嬰留庭以日來申請家庭照顧可以可以一小時來機動彈性的幫助這些家裡有小朋友的這些年輕爸媽們"},{"start":7635.67,"end":7663.369,"text":"這個制度勞動部先行了開始從企業來推我們工部門是不是全面適用軍公教全面適用我們軍公教都沒有任何限制我本來就本來就已經擺時間的方式在那現在新制以日跟時更機動更彈性更貼心軍公教全面民間有的工部門也可以推對不對"},{"start":7664.23,"end":7671.193,"text":"事實上就是公家機關先推然後民間再跟著我們這樣推是這樣嗎我們是走到前面 勞動再跟過來如果是這樣 我們就要宣傳到大陸了因為這個大新聞是我們勞動部在前幾個禮拜在院會的通過那我關心到我們的卓院長也特別在院會上說"},{"start":7690.18,"end":7703.869,"text":"我們給這個福利給年輕爸媽在私部門而軍公教也一體試用那很好公私部門一起來做我們讓制度更優化讓育嬰留庭都能夠更友善下一頁"},{"start":7705.45,"end":7721.74,"text":"昨天立法院有一個好消息就是司法法治委員會我們修正的考積法昨天三讀通過了透過這個考積法的三讀通過我們可以讓公務員的育兒這個育嬰留庭不會再延緩"},{"start":7723.137,"end":7749.953,"text":"延後他的升遷的機會這是一個進步性的立法我們終止制度性的歧視讓照顧不再是懲罰昨天通過了也謝謝人事總署謝謝我們司法法制委員一起把制度真的更人性但是法也修了這種彈性的價別也給了您認為對於現在育嬰留庭在公部門的執行您滿意嗎"},{"start":7752.395,"end":7779.312,"text":"我覺得各個公務機關他的法徵的法律的尊崇事實上都非常的到位可是我覺得我們還有一個要努力的就是要加強先導推廣因為每一個機關他對這樣一個新措施的一個認知可能會有一些差異性像以前我在財政部服務的時候我有一個同仁三年生了兩個小孩"},{"start":7779.952,"end":7792.922,"text":"那就是異因留庭嘛那回來隔年我就把他升為課長那很好不會因為他異因留庭而給予他歧視性的對待就看能力看表現嘛 對不對那夏業"},{"start":7795.595,"end":7824.654,"text":"育嬰留庭也要性別平權我們要加強宣導讓大家有假就可以請大家也敢請制度上不會有歧視不會影響到他的升遷不會影響他的考級那我今天跟您探討性別平權男性公務員的育嬰留庭的優化制度這幾年來我們一再的推進譬如說110年起雙方就是男女雙方爸媽都可以申請育嬰留庭這是一個進步"},{"start":7825.995,"end":7847.945,"text":"然後呢在111年我們開始將育嬰留庭的津貼從六成薪到八成薪這也是一個大躍進大家覺得啊這樣我願意不會影響我的收入太多有一些起碼的保障所以確實我比較起來上路四年的新的優化的制度男性育嬰留庭的人數從2322增加到3633成長了55.79%"},{"start":7854.688,"end":7863.518,"text":"制度更進步男性也勇於育嬰留庭照顧小孩不再是只有女人的事數字看起來成長55.79真漂亮阿有教我"},{"start":7869.732,"end":7896.748,"text":"其實我要跟委員報告一件事受理是這幾宗男生請這是你今天報告裡面的受理議因留庭的部分比較多可是我這裡會跟委員補充像我們人種我們就有兩個科長科長 主管他也請議因留庭我們連主管就讓他在議因留庭而不會因為你是主管身份我不可以讓你去當然 任何的職別職等"},{"start":7897.308,"end":7915.684,"text":"都有相同的權利嘛 對不對所以我們是以身作則然後建立標竿大家來模仿讓這些比較主觀管的他也敢請不影響升遷嘛但是我跟您討論性別平權看起來你們今天的報告數字說男性成長55.79很好 讓你嘔囉拍拍手下一頁但是呢你們沒有說的事實是"},{"start":7923.55,"end":7938.926,"text":"女性跟男性的育嬰流停還是回到一個女生照顧小孩是女人的一年所以比例起來男性去請的只有22.71%這是最高的數字"},{"start":7942.717,"end":7967.316,"text":"女性是77.29換言之照顧生養的責任還是落在女性的身上是傳統的觀念在公務部門我就以育嬰留庭請假的性別也解讀到這樣子的一個現象下一頁我們對於男性也要投入生養的責任我就以育嬰留庭剛剛是1比4"},{"start":7969.011,"end":7991.706,"text":"我們來看看這個產駕現在男生可以請陪產駕跟這個陪檢駕越來越進步男性在產前請駕跟女性自己是懷孕大肚子其實是一比一就是說年輕爸爸父母去做產檢去生我都覺得我有責任我要參與這是人生光榮的一刻可是生完之後"},{"start":7993.123,"end":8014.81,"text":"照顧小孩又回到我剛剛說的一比四還是女性在公職的現場女性去請育嬰留庭男性就比較保守這是一種性別的失衡當然有傳統的觀念這個部分你們怎麼樣在制度上再去宣導再去給幼嬰鼓勵爸爸也要育嬰留庭"},{"start":8017.399,"end":8024.846,"text":"製度在那嘛我覺得我們還是要再做先導的工作還要持續的另外"},{"start":8026.331,"end":8045.027,"text":"也有一些現實的情況一般來講有時候因為先生進到職場的時間也可能比較早一點他的月薪待遇可能也比較高女性的他待遇可能相對的問題所以這就是另外一個問題啦為什麼男生跟女生的薪水我會去討論什麼人照顧孩子這樣會好有些是"},{"start":8051.593,"end":8061.2,"text":"董事長說話要洗腦啦不要在這裡挑起另外一個性別的男生的薪水就那麼高女生好像薪水就那麼少好像這是一個通"},{"start":8062.341,"end":8092.001,"text":"也不是通案啦我只是在說有這個現象啦有一個現象因為本來就是你在總體的看起來大概是一比四所以我們現在之所以讓雙父母雙方都可以育嬰留庭而且同樣從六成星到八成星都是希望可以打破這些東西就是男女都父母親都一起請嘛我提出這個問題就好好去思考怎麼樣可以讓我們的男性更勇敢承擔責任好不好"},{"start":8092.922,"end":8116.662,"text":"我們來比日本我們過去都說日本的男人大男人比台灣男人嚴重得多台灣男人相對是比較大型的我身為台灣女人我深感幸福但是你看看國際比一比喲育嬰留庭在日本十年日本男性去育嬰留庭的成長49%女生台灣十年成長9.2%"},{"start":8118.755,"end":8129.777,"text":"如果是以倍數來講日本十年男生去勤育嬰留庭成長16.8倍台灣十年只成長不到兩倍我就說"},{"start":8131.587,"end":8148.445,"text":"那社會觀念來說日本的男尊女卑可能是比台灣更有一些些他們很羨慕台灣的自由女性的地位的提升但是如果以育嬰流行在日本這是日本的公務員我還沒有比勞工喔"},{"start":8149.506,"end":8177.716,"text":"我手上还有劳工的数字但今天您是人事总长所以看到日本做得到他一定有其他的制度诱因他一定有更多可以做到更到位的如果真的推动性别平权在生养的这件事情的友善职场我们还有很大的空间要进步跟努力把这个问题带回去好吗好那最后一个我占用一分钟很多委员都在说铁饭碗不再热门"},{"start":8179.423,"end":8202.169,"text":"確實報考的人數腰斬現在大概十幾萬、十六萬左右但是我希望在A黨的委員不要提錯解方我們如果要讓鐵飯碗真的是鐵飯碗就要保障現職的公務同仁他的福利福祉不能夠受到任何的剝奪我們想方設法這幾年來我們為軍公教調薪了四次14%"},{"start":8204.946,"end":8222.764,"text":"但是呢還是有減壓跟友善職場進步的空間照顧現役公務員是我認為您作為人事總長我作為監督執政的國會議員我們一定要優先照顧我們的現役工作同仁"},{"start":8224.4,"end":8239.205,"text":"以前說勞役不均如果說在野黨的委員提錯解方是要把年金停侃要把年金走回頭路讓我們的公務人員的這個破可能16年就會破產"},{"start":8240.365,"end":8265.502,"text":"教育人員可能13年後就領不到退休金影響的是現役工作人員的權益那麼鐵飯碗就更不是鐵飯碗了因為退休金會被在野黨的委員亂搞惡搞現役的公務人員領不到退休金就會成為一個負面的惡性循環公務同仁的這個工作不再具有吸引力"},{"start":8266.503,"end":8295.389,"text":"所以說這個問題我要再次提出來不要下錯解方給錯藥如果讓年金走回頭路改革中斷造成年金的破產這才是對現役的公務人員最不公平的地方我們要大聲說我們要勇敢說因為要為所有的在場所有的同仁確保退休金人人領得到"},{"start":8296.189,"end":8308.237,"text":"所以呼籲在野黨的委員 司法法制委員會的同仁三思再三思謝謝獨眼俠主席謝謝好 謝謝吳司堯委員接下來請你看 司堯委員他質詢完以後降到918"},{"start":8319.727,"end":8326.429,"text":"已經合乎標準了我都在照顧你們的健康接下來請我們最專業美麗的翁小玲委員來謝謝主席這個莊昭偉辛苦了身體有樣但是還是非常的敬業然後這個從開刀第一天之後馬上就來"},{"start":8342.881,"end":8353.198,"text":"我們宮廷會這裡簽到然後今天又主持會議真的非常的佩服謝謝向您致敬那接下來我要先請人事長請人事長火雄鵝肉老家好處理委員長"},{"start":8357.998,"end":8372.827,"text":"好 任市長早那麼剛剛吳斯堯委員講說很擔心這次的軍公教人員退休金的停砍的修法會影響到限職人員的退休金的保障我想請問任市長您會有這樣的擔憂嗎"},{"start":8377.456,"end":8393.987,"text":"我覺得當初設計聯改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我你會擔心嗎 現職人員會領不到退休金嗎"},{"start":8397.973,"end":8420.882,"text":"當然大家會有這種疑慮如果說你擔心的話你會同意把你的退休金的一部分去撥給現職人員嗎你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作"},{"start":8422.952,"end":8448.861,"text":"非常佩服任市長您的大氣您很願意把您的退休金其中蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員我們接下來來談另外一個問題最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則"},{"start":8450.592,"end":8463.664,"text":"請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎就是陸委會開會決定了我們來發文你們發文所以裡面的所有的建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎"},{"start":8466.161,"end":8487.911,"text":"就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含什麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的"},{"start":8492.97,"end":8504.751,"text":"我们是按照陆委会的话我们转给所有的签证机关好 所以这个就不是出自于人种之手我只是要确定这件事情这个成熟规则是不是你们所写的"},{"start":8506.701,"end":8523.073,"text":"會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":8523.913,"end":8547.031,"text":"我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過然後所以呢認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的他最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成是陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條"},{"start":8549.924,"end":8565.519,"text":"從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項 第四項這非常清楚檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到"},{"start":8566.88,"end":8594.254,"text":"這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人到財富大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別的未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎"},{"start":8595.543,"end":8610.913,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對 你法律裡面明明就規定"},{"start":8622.058,"end":8648.843,"text":"實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛 一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛"},{"start":8650.58,"end":8677.656,"text":"任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下 緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員 科長 客員 記錄人員都要申請許可嗎"},{"start":8680.652,"end":8697.314,"text":"我跟委員稍微說明一下大概兩岸條例是屬於陸委會規範的11以上的然後11以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請"},{"start":8698.629,"end":8727.689,"text":"你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入到公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長 院長 系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管"},{"start":8728.772,"end":8733.912,"text":"你們現在的規定就是這樣是要申請 主要是要申請的問題"},{"start":8736.651,"end":8760.724,"text":"刚才委员你提到的学校是兼行正职的才需要没有兼行正职的就不需要任市长我告诉你这会发生一个什么问题好吗你现在是不管是大学中学小学以后未来没有老师没有教授愿意兼行正职很快就会找不到系主任小学里面你也找不到各个什么组长"},{"start":8762.225,"end":8771.996,"text":"教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎"},{"start":8774.352,"end":8794.469,"text":"一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利"},{"start":8797.285,"end":8812.146,"text":"這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了"},{"start":8813.226,"end":8830.452,"text":"他要怎樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定"},{"start":8831.092,"end":8857.674,"text":"如果這樣的話人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處"},{"start":8860.526,"end":8887.376,"text":"他如果不涉及到任 我就講一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的主管他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們"},{"start":8887.996,"end":8915.207,"text":"真的要好好的去检讨对于你们的懈怠你们的职责我这次也会反映在你的预算上面另外我还要再加上另外还要再很快的问一个问题就是我们知道现在行政院的一些机关我们看到它的原额的编制都明显超过你们之前所讲的5%对于这个部分你们有没有什么看法怎么样让这些聘用人员的禁用比例"},{"start":8916.314,"end":8931.879,"text":"能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%"},{"start":8935.993,"end":8957.804,"text":"這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會"},{"start":8958.68,"end":8975.981,"text":"我請仁總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額"},{"start":8978.58,"end":8997.173,"text":"這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的禁用比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取"},{"start":9001.036,"end":9017.325,"text":"身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任"},{"start":9018.291,"end":9037.021,"text":"我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面"},{"start":9039.442,"end":9061.594,"text":"他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循"},{"start":9063.257,"end":9088.046,"text":"任市長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心"},{"start":9089.827,"end":9116.565,"text":"你有沒有考慮到就接上而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了我想教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長你這裡也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管 中主管 大主管他不願意去兼主管職的"},{"start":9118.817,"end":9147.003,"text":"你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的公務還有教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上 謝謝謝謝翁小林委員接下來請審發委員改書面那是不是翁昭偉先上來我把他問完好了"},{"start":9176.107,"end":9186.31,"text":"好 那現在先進行會議程序的宣告等會在莊瑞雄委員發言完之後呢我們就休息五分鐘好 接下來請莊委員發言好 謝謝昭偉有請我們任市長"},{"start":9201.629,"end":9220.418,"text":"我上來以後你看智慧儀板已經降到1000所以我來質詢大家身體都會很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石計一架"},{"start":9221.478,"end":9245.827,"text":"這個修法已經從假期從一天延長為三天這個意義重大但是以現在來看的話就是說這個社會跟族人對權力的認知其實也不太夠沒有辦法去落實那上一次我覺得質詢的時候我說我們的行事曆裡面應該清楚去標示遂時即宜假不要只附一個王子"},{"start":9246.843,"end":9261.529,"text":"目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題 任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告"},{"start":9262.449,"end":9287.669,"text":"我們有去找幾天他就要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過我確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上面我委員答應的 召委答應的就是碎石祭那三天 稍後清澈嘛我有在答應的嘛但是到目前為止 延民會那個資料還沒給我"},{"start":9288.635,"end":9289.676,"text":"所以這個就機關的問題啦這個就機關的問題好不好 這個政策要去落實"},{"start":9319.135,"end":9335.524,"text":"是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡。我們只好用錯過網站的方式,用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你剛才在參加什麼?問題是說在什麼地方?還有罰寒。"},{"start":9347.071,"end":9359.546,"text":"原名叫打屁股啦其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位這個客人就誰知道嘛說這時候隨時寄宜假這已經兩年通過了這變成國家的一個制度"},{"start":9364.711,"end":9386.988,"text":"讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺"},{"start":9389.523,"end":9399.535,"text":"連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情那竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們"},{"start":9401.929,"end":9426.319,"text":"人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是"},{"start":9428.587,"end":9445.574,"text":"辦公室的基盤撬去另外一座基盤就開那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這間韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前在財政部我資料備份一定有3分我現在就是"},{"start":9448.972,"end":9465.16,"text":"電腦的部分 主機的部分 系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村我們有主機還有主流的備份所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備"},{"start":9466.673,"end":9482.05,"text":"所以不用煩惱 不用像韓國那樣賣 不會發生我也覺得韓國做到這樣 我也覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多"},{"start":9482.991,"end":9501.847,"text":"的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政"},{"start":9502.848,"end":9524.978,"text":"但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個公務人員很機密的東西把它丟到"},{"start":9529.62,"end":9541.777,"text":"那個全部GPD好了 丟上去要做顧問要比較快要問問題要比較快那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台"},{"start":9543.454,"end":9564.451,"text":"會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有定一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是based on這樣的一個指引"},{"start":9565.071,"end":9585.044,"text":"等於就是一般開放型的open data的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去蒙碼 你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的 直接在我們這裡"},{"start":9586.145,"end":9607.559,"text":"現在第一個階段是這樣 第二個階段現在樹化部他也是在去建構一個Tri-AI的機制讓各個政府機關 以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用 不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成分會更高"},{"start":9608.379,"end":9624.896,"text":"管理的成本你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊我就跟他說你會比較手的我就給他機密文件給我寫一張之後給我等一天叫他給我生成"},{"start":9626.483,"end":9637.67,"text":"這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險我在說的是在說什麼那是內控的事情什麼內控而已這不是只有內控就算是內控這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個顯然是可以預見的那你的準備是什麼"},{"start":9651.776,"end":9668.586,"text":"基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的交易紀錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎"},{"start":9669.306,"end":9691.673,"text":"他也知道我們要做一個公文而已他也要等出去我們會有一個cross check的機制沒有問題我們一定要做那個不然出事我們發生事情我們也要有一些記錄去查詢這個非常重要這個非常重要我要先跟你示警就是說"},{"start":9696.357,"end":9723.465,"text":"這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發生的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎"},{"start":9725.585,"end":9753.722,"text":"風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西他第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace他有做什麼事情我覺得有高風險我們會把他調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛"},{"start":9754.903,"end":9764.842,"text":"這本來你就要去建置的你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險好不好"},{"start":9767.532,"end":9792.863,"text":"你一定要去做最後一個問題我來請教就是說牽涉到我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準你就看那個標準很有意思第一類政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長 司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六"},{"start":9794.835,"end":9814.343,"text":"你看看第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你繼續看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年"},{"start":9816.665,"end":9833.1,"text":"當然服務滿一年這合理啦你就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年到一年你不覺得這樣的一個規定"},{"start":9837.694,"end":9859.301,"text":"我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平 這個制度 健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對 不是嗎"},{"start":9862.219,"end":9871.024,"text":"這點我跟委員報告 我們要跟保証會合調因為健檢要點是一定的剛才我跟委員說的是40歲以來40歲以下 但是他要考慮的風險 黑管的是不是那件事你不可以說一定的公教人員 公務人員 人力資源這本地人福利政策裡面 你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9895.25,"end":9917.376,"text":"第三類 反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少 三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡"},{"start":9919.881,"end":9946.354,"text":"其實我要跟委員報告 因為這個費用的基準中央的部分應該是OK 但是地方我一定要跟地方去合調因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作 所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊 是嘛所以你就不要先給地方 中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼"},{"start":9948.02,"end":9969.01,"text":"越危險的 你正在三年那一屆以前正在那個金額 還在 還是更少其實你如果想想看 我們還規定到40歲很多公務人員其實進去20幾歲 還不到30歲就進去了那年輕公務人員 我在那看 大家都有 今天他沒有"},{"start":9971.809,"end":9992.935,"text":"你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是"},{"start":9995.25,"end":10008.707,"text":"要擔心的年紀都超過五十五到六十以上了你四十歲以來整體的健康狀況坦白講會比較好所以他的頻率還有額度會減低因為說這個 我要說啦景蕭啦夜班的人啦"},{"start":10014.233,"end":10039.289,"text":"機場的外勤人員那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要給我小便你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員"},{"start":10041.279,"end":10062.338,"text":"你去比較的時候 我怎麼比你跟我說的我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦 你說的那個高風險的我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家 跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦"},{"start":10063.649,"end":10088.717,"text":"有啦 這次就是老委員在說的三年一回合我們這次已經要簽名的那就是改造整理一回合我們常常在說賴總統在講健康台灣這個其實也都是其中的一個一環尤其你們看到新年制度有 你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案那你今年結束以後 黃蒙里你明年會不會繼續辦理"},{"start":10092.005,"end":10108.263,"text":"會喔 很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":10111.566,"end":10134.594,"text":"高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理 制度上應該去做檢討好不好好 謝謝那一先前的宣告我們就休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10647.029,"end":10665.404,"text":"我們繼續開會我們接下來請岳元之委員來進行詢問岳元之你知道今天都要保持70分配以下超過分配太高都驅逐出會場主席請找人事長請人事長"},{"start":10673.803,"end":10701.043,"text":"委員長早我跟你講一個現在在學校發生的現象某一個公立高中他有一個某一個處的一個組長一般組長是由老師來兼因為沒有老師兼所以就找代理老師代理老師一招二招是可以找有教師證都找不到所以三招就開始找沒有教師證的就是那種大學畢業有符合大學畢業資格的就可以來當組長"},{"start":10703.064,"end":10722.707,"text":"然後第一位代理組長做一個月就不做了後來又再招第二個組長又是做一個月就不做了所以現在在學校缺行政職的狀況是非常嚴重但是這裡面出現一個我個人覺得滿奇怪的現象"},{"start":10723.308,"end":10751.375,"text":"就是其實學校裡面很多組裡面都有考教務行政進去的幹事這些幹事有的是做可能10幾20年他不能做組長然後要由比如說大學剛畢業可能就教學各方面都還沒有經驗的人當他的主管領主管家級但卻不能由幹事來代理這個組長就出現這個狀況我不曉得任市長您聽到之後會不會覺得有點奇怪"},{"start":10754.063,"end":10775.354,"text":"這個我們再來了解一下不是了解我現在跟你講現象就是這樣那你聽我這樣描述你覺得不能由很有經驗的幹事來代理組長但是必須要由比如說沒有教師證我不是說代理老師一定不好啦而是說這就找不到人嘛當然可以先老師然後再來代理老師但是如果都找不到人的情況之下"},{"start":10776.654,"end":10787.163,"text":"幹事不能來代理組長他明明就很有經驗只是因為他不是老師他就沒有辦法代理組長然後你不覺得很奇怪嗎你聽這樣講你會不會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":10788.038,"end":10812.9,"text":"有一點奇怪這部分我會答應委員我們找教育部來了解一下看看因應這樣的情況要如何去改如何解決對 一定要改過來教育現場已經碰到了碰到了一定要想辦法解決對 所以你現在是要研議說如果假設碰到這種狀況老師都沒有辦法去兼的話由幹事來代理你在研議這個方向是不是"},{"start":10813.28,"end":10819.623,"text":"有時候也是人事總署的建議因為有的是那種直系也是你們規定那這個部分就麻煩你了什麼時候會給我一個答案一個月內因為現在狀況很嚴重"},{"start":10836.292,"end":10856.21,"text":"三個月啦三個月太久了啦因為那個人事長平常不是 這個直系的東西不是地方可以決定的啦這是第一件事情第二件事情行政 現在缺行政職其實很多人在說要提高行政家級那這個部分其實已經講很久"},{"start":10857.231,"end":10867.719,"text":"我是有看到考試院有發一個新聞可能人事總署也有建議就是我們現在要平衡中央跟地方所以要調整地方機關的3500個職務讓它可以提高一個職等 對吧"},{"start":10869.054,"end":10893.526,"text":"職等大概原來有7-8會整個調到8-9所以其實我建議可以比照這種做法因為你們的出發點很好就是地方機關有時候找人不容易很多人都要往中央去跑就是因為職等比較低所以現在要平衡這件事情同樣的像我也覺得在學校裡面的校長主任職等很低現在校長如果領行政家級的話職等是多少"},{"start":10896.331,"end":10907.731,"text":"小學是不是兼任九職等兼任九職等你看喔 一個學校的校長喔校長喔他的職等才兼任九職等高中是兼任十職等嘛對吧"},{"start":10908.462,"end":10929.327,"text":"也好有大小那當然嘛那以一個學校校長都才鑑認90等那任市長不覺得很不尊重教育嗎不重視教育嗎重視教育的重視教育那謝謝就像你重視地方機關一樣你現在要調整中央跟地方的值等讓他們比較平衡我覺得"},{"start":10930.367,"end":10947.2,"text":"也應該要調整學校的行政職的職等校長主任都往上提高提高的話他的行政佳績就會提高這是一個尊重第二個當然是待遇也提高不然的話現在在學校也沒有人要真的很少人要兼行政才會出現我剛剛講的狀況人事長你重視教育嗎"},{"start":10953.316,"end":10979.081,"text":"那就不要口慧食不治好不好这件事情既然可以做到地方的职等提高我觉得教育行政职等提高也是应该要做第三件事情我们现在在学校里面有非常多处学务处教务处辅导室总务处那您知道在学校里面只有哪几个组长是可以由公务人员来兼吗你知道吗三个就是总务处下面三个组长可以兼"},{"start":10980.73,"end":11002.923,"text":"我現在不懂的是說人事總署跟教育部都會規定說要有老師來兼的原因是因為老師有教學經驗所以有些組長他可能要有教學經驗的組長去兼他比較了解怎麼去規劃學校的相關行政事務應該是這樣出發點應該是這樣對吧這個我可以接受所以所有的組長一開始都找老師"},{"start":11003.959,"end":11028.691,"text":"但是老师找不到代理助长找不到代理老师找不到情况之下有一些组实际上他不见得需要教学经验的人来做嘛举例来讲像教务处教务处你说教学组那当然要教学经验对不对但是如果注册组或者是辅导室的一些其他的相关的比如说资讯组这为什么一定要有教学经验的人来兼呢"},{"start":11030.643,"end":11052.716,"text":"這個可能也牽涉到學校的資訊教育的好 沒關係你去盤點嘛你說一定要教學經驗的來做那你就按照原來的規劃但是如果有的實際上不見得一定要老師在兼而現在學校已經缺行政職缺到這麼嚴重的地步我剛剛已經講過案例了嘛那為什麼不能做一些調整呢"},{"start":11053.636,"end":11066.297,"text":"這很僵化 我們政府很僵化就是不會說遇到問題去調整體制就是既有的體制就一直做到底即便是遇到問題好像當沒看到那這是一個負責任的解決問題的政府嗎 任市長"},{"start":11067.642,"end":11091.956,"text":"我想我會把委員的意見轉請教育部整體來沒有 這個有關於人事任用教育部有時候就會推給人事總署嘛這個乾燥人事總署的規劃我們一起處理 對啊你推給他 推給你 問題就永遠存在嘛不是啦 我跟你講 人事長因為剛剛那個召委有指示啊分配不能太大但是你的回應真的讓人家覺得很官僚啦"},{"start":11092.987,"end":11122.063,"text":"你就一直去扯教育部如果一個勇於任事的人事長發現這個問題教育體制的人事任用出現這個問題就會說 我很重視教育我要趕快去跟教育部我們一起研商出一個解決教育現場問題的方法但是我沒有看到你的態度然後我剛剛第一時間我的態度跟委員一樣我第一時間跟你講說問題已經嚴重到就是有一公立老師他缺公立高中缺行政職缺到這種地步然後你跟我講說我三個月給你辦法你根本不把這個當一回事"},{"start":11123.772,"end":11145.94,"text":"所以我希望說你真的認真的去看待這件事情可以嗎可以啊那可不可以盡快給我們一個解決方案盡快不要講三個月好那多久兩個月兩個月你覺得兩個月兩個月一個學期都過去了耶不會啦一個月啦我剛剛講了三個建議我剛剛講了三個建議一個月給我一個報告好不好好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11152.918,"end":11162.407,"text":"好 謝謝岳言之委員 聲音稍大但內容很棒 好吧來 接下來請伍麗華委員詢答謝謝主席 有請任市長請任市長"},{"start":11177.523,"end":11204.559,"text":"委員早人事長早我之前也有來質詢過人事長就是關心園民會的人員編制那麼我在公文上有看到我們人總這邊已經有發給園民會就是在明年115年度同意合增櫃會職員預算原額18人"},{"start":11207.501,"end":11236.166,"text":"那這18人到底要怎麼運用規劃當然公文是說依業務推動需要不過我今天是要來跟我們任市長來說明一下我其實很希望原民會能夠增加一個管理原保地的這種土地的數為什麼我這麼說因為對原住民來講其實土地是非常重要的"},{"start":11237.046,"end":11260.991,"text":"我擔任立委的這幾年也發現我們族人最愛陳情的就是關於土地但是我們看一下以原民會目前它有一個叫土管處土地管理處它管理的原保地面積有26萬公頃它的編制員額我們不要管編制編制是27名實際上是23名"},{"start":11263.732,"end":11279.441,"text":"可是我們去看一下林保署林保署他管理的土地有162萬公頃可是呢他實際的人員有2538名這是一個非常大的一個落差"},{"start":11280.422,"end":11303.733,"text":"那麼國產署我們也來看一下就是專門看它差不多的國有非公用土地它是21萬公頃跟原民會管理的土地是差不多的但是它的原額有647名那我不曉得說站在任市長您的一個觀點您覺得這樣的一個配比你有什麼想法"},{"start":11304.878,"end":11323.506,"text":"我跟委員報告一下基本上像林保署他本身也有一些動物保育的還有一些像阿里山森林遊樂區相關的他的一個任務的屬性還比較多元另外像國產署因為他有牽涉到"},{"start":11325.547,"end":11349.198,"text":"更廣泛的國家土地的一個整合應用因為我跟延民會土管處事實上以前現在的副主委我跟他很熟 他是我同學那我一直也有跟他提到因為在處理原住民保留地的相關土地潛移的部分除了土管處以外有不少的角色扮演是在地方政府"},{"start":11349.798,"end":11376.346,"text":"那我說真的以政府機關的那個運作的一個機制我會強烈建議在目前的圖管處底下我們如何去搭配地方政府甚至我們可以找民間的一起來參與這樣的一個機制的運作可能會更有效率因為一個組織的膨脹那麼大有時候跟我們期待的會有一些落差"},{"start":11376.866,"end":11398.184,"text":"那不好意思人事長我必須因為時間的關係齁我打斷您的話齁其實您剛剛一直提到地方政府那我也要跟人事長報告就是因為沒有足夠的人員因此必須依賴縣政府依賴地方鄉公所但是呢這長年以來您可能不知道"},{"start":11399.249,"end":11427.569,"text":"很嚴重的就是私相授受因人涉事產生很多弊端大家各自為政不拿中央園民會當一回事中央園民會也使不上力因為他也必須要把該做的工作交給人家所以這個部分他很容易就變成是地方綁裝的工具像現在越來越多的我們的族人就是站出來抗議"},{"start":11428.61,"end":11452.483,"text":"因為以前這種所謂的我要怎麼樣他有一個土管會那個可能都是鄉長任命然後呢怎麼分配土地怎麼登記土地一團亂中央使不上力這是一個很嚴重的問題所以呢必須要有所改革那我們很高興這一次看到好不容易給了園民會多了18個這個員額所以我想要請教任市長"},{"start":11457.145,"end":11468.905,"text":"你支不支持 因為原民會想要啊原民會很希望能夠把這個原保地這麼重要的業務把它升格為土地管理署人事長你支不支持"},{"start":11469.926,"end":11498.75,"text":"我覺得要升格的問題要比較審慎的去大家去做分析進一步溝通反而因為我按照目前的這一些分工的話出席延民會的圖管處他有出席審查會刊還有最終審定的作業那個權利是在延民會圖管處他那個管理的手頭所以本市就可以去做這件事只是現在是執行的落實的程度的問題"},{"start":11499.53,"end":11522.132,"text":"來 我跟您說因為實際上就不是這樣原民會使不上力要不然不會有那麼多的弊端產生我們也處理不來所以在這個地方我只是想要了解任市長您的態度跟您是否支持那這樣子我就大概了解但是我還是希望你能夠了解這件事情的嚴重性好不好"},{"start":11522.772,"end":11548.345,"text":"那另外簡單的就是主席再給我一分鐘另外因為我是教師出身那也很多人也關心這個問題那我也經常的參與全教總的記者會我在這邊跟人事長說現在就是兩個大問題教師大逃亡行政大逃亡就是這樣而且這是很普遍的現象而且越來越嚴重我以行政大逃亡來講"},{"start":11549.98,"end":11571.963,"text":"真的你很難相信很多地方的學校竟然組長是代理老師當這幾年更嚴重的是越來越多代理老師兼主任但是說一句實在話你以為他喜歡嗎他也不喜歡因為行政家籍也不多但是他多很多行政工作但是他迫於無奈"},{"start":11573.004,"end":11600.09,"text":"因為這是他的飯碗因為對他一點用處也沒有他當了組長 當了主任他又不是正式老師他也不能把這個積分拿去考校長對他一點意義都沒有 迫於無奈這個是一個很嚴重的問題這個已經不是教師尊嚴的問題而是教育根本的問題所以有兩個解方我想請教一下任市長你比較 Prefer 哪一種第一種就是我們目前的行政家級是大概來講是三級"},{"start":11602.33,"end":11612.563,"text":"然後讓這些帶課老師甚至很多是無證無教師證的帶課老師來兼這些行政工作我們是希望說就把行政僵局兩極化至少呢我們可以兩極化之後有好一點點的一個行政津貼"},{"start":11620.433,"end":11639.473,"text":"那第二個就是其實教師都是最希望行政專職化就是增加學校的行政人力任市長你比較喜歡哪一種你覺得哪一種是比較你可以支持的我覺得委員提的問題非常好我們現在會分兩個階段第一個我們先跟教育部去溝通"},{"start":11640.654,"end":11663.668,"text":"聽聽看教育部的看法大家有一個共識以後我們再找一些地方政府因為這一些的財政的負擔有時候會地方政府要去cover所以地方政府的一個聲音我們也要納進來所以我們會分兩個階段那我們會盡快來進行這件事情那你希望給我報告好不好那第二個部分就是關於教師大逃亡"},{"start":11664.568,"end":11670.523,"text":"我跟您說我先說導師是一個很美的工作"},{"start":11671.877,"end":11696.226,"text":"早晨接學生進來陪著他晨間閱讀陪著他做招會陪著他做課間活動招陪著他吃營養午餐陪著他一起睡午覺陪著他一起做掃地工作最後送他出校門回家平平安安的回家很美的工作但是我跟任市長說這一些我剛剛講的加起來175分鐘"},{"start":11701.908,"end":11724.623,"text":"約三個小時導師費一天一百塊連時薪都不到所以任市長您覺得導師費該不該增加這麼神聖這麼美好的工作這不是尊嚴的問題而已這是我們教育的根本這是我們未來的主人翁有快樂的老師才有快樂的學生可以嗎"},{"start":11725.273,"end":11736.074,"text":"我們會跟教育部溝通請他們假如有需要調整的話報上來我們來予以支持教育部很高興可以 予以支持我們一定支持的好 謝謝任市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11739.52,"end":11756.866,"text":"好 謝謝吳立華委員精彩的質詢我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在洪孟凱委員不在賴世保委員不在邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉委員不在楊瓊英委員不在傅坤祺"},{"start":11767.431,"end":11772.175,"text":"今天所有的登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答就結束了那我們委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員跟本會"},{"start":11796.354,"end":11820.986,"text":"那委員審發會傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那我們本次的會議議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢那我們會議進行到此就結束了剛好你看我們的二氧化碳的剛好已經降到843ppm來 現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"164841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da513bea071e2ad41e6914a9ab9b55a87a241e9be59762a4979ea9dba0c141707bd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:16:57 - 13:26:46","影片長度":"00:09:49","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T13:16:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T13:26:46+08:00","duration":589,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.72284375,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.658468750000001,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.31221875,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.07409375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.54596875,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.87471875000001,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.87409375,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.53596875,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.85096875,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.16534375,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.43534375,"end":85.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.77284375,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.21534375,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.57659375,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.39034375,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.87471875000001,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.36784375,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.59971875000001,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.65034375,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.03846875,"end":116.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.28284375000001,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.70721875000001,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.31471875,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.88721875000002,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.10971875,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.81846875000002,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.57284375,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.45846875,"end":154.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.80846875,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.69721875000002,"end":168.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.25346875000002,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.43846875,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.02909375000002,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.75034375,"end":175.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.98221875000002,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.51784375,"end":193.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.81221875,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.17784375000002,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.69659375,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.93221875,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.66221875000002,"end":234.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.45909375000002,"end":233.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.18409375000002,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.42846875,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.46221875,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.61409375000002,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.66471875000002,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.16659375,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.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主席請一下彭部長來 邀請彭部長部長好部長我們根據環管署地方環保機關持續加強查緝稽查處於再利用檢核養豬場計畫"},{"start":24.019,"end":49.523,"text":"有這一個計畫就是要求廚餘養豬場呢必須要按時上傳廚餘的相關資料是 對不對那它假如沒有按照規定呢上傳就是地方政府必須要每個月去積查是那現在有一個問題同時我們部裡面也要進行抽查啦是這個計畫裡面的規定那"},{"start":54.895,"end":69.66,"text":"我有幾個問題我想要問一下就是我看先前前進應變所的記者會部長有說調閱相關的資料就案發養豬場在"},{"start":72.146,"end":98.512,"text":"5月的時候上傳了24次6月8次 7月1次6月8次 7月1次 8月0次就表示說它是嚴重的違規了那台中市政府就是它違規以後按照我們計畫的規定是地方政府必須要每個月擊塌結果台中市政府只有在"},{"start":99.679,"end":115.972,"text":"五月跟七月各集合一次那我想要請問一下六月沒有集合我們部裡面知道嗎我們是事後會去列出這個資料才知道可是六月到現在也有一段時間"},{"start":116.893,"end":136.076,"text":"我們其實那時候知道就是說一直提醒他然後我們系統上有一些警示所以我們就會提醒他一定要去集合可是因為這個主管還是地方政府所以他必須負起這個責任當然 現在就是說已經到了像7月"},{"start":137.037,"end":163.152,"text":"一整個月只有一次 然後八月零次這個就是已經到了類似不管的狀態了啦我現在的問題是台中市政府當然對於這樣子的養豬場查核是有問題的這個沒有爭論啦因為最少他六月跟八月沒有去查核嘛"},{"start":164.761,"end":174.373,"text":"可是計畫裡面也賦予環境部可以去進行抽查我們當初為什麼會沒有去抽查請問副署長"},{"start":177.108,"end":198.082,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們山區中心那個就是要有一個稽查的比例 抽查的比例3%那我們去查了一下1213到114我們這個抽查都是有按照這個3%的比例去抽查對啦我知道我是說你們這3%這3%要選擇抽查哪一個廚餘養豬場"},{"start":207.288,"end":225.252,"text":"有沒有一定的標準啊譬如說像我現在看到資料我就覺得案發的養豬場其實是就上傳資料的部分來看是非常嚴重的違規然後你們也知道地方政府沒有去去稽查"},{"start":226.844,"end":243.682,"text":"為什麼抽查的時候沒有抽查到這一家啦我的意思是這樣子我們請我們那個司法大臣報告委員 這一家剛好就是三個中心在抽查的時候沒有抽查到"},{"start":248.207,"end":268.636,"text":"對 當然我現在不是在追究責任就是說抽查的定義本來就跟稽查不一樣所以你們剛才講的3%的比例這個3% 5%這種比例大家都接受那我是不是建議一下就是以後像這種很"},{"start":270.458,"end":274.99,"text":"就是從資料來看就看得出來很有問題的 應該要列為"},{"start":277.982,"end":305.469,"text":"優先的對象啦不要太隨機啦我知道你們現在大概因為抽查嘛抽查就是要說就是從公平上來看或者是便宜形式來看都是隨意嘛我現在的建議是說以後針對這一種這個就是從紙面上的資料就看得出來它有異常啦好不好"},{"start":306.369,"end":326.281,"text":"也報告委員喔 因為那個這個的真主的主管機關還是地方我知道 地方那我們是提供這個平台讓地方可以去做這個抽查 稽查的這個機會所以地方呢最重要的是他隔月一定要去稽查然後輔導他改善那這家其實我覺得目前我看到的是要從1月開始就很大的異常了啦"},{"start":326.641,"end":340.821,"text":"所以我是覺得希望說未來跟委員報告因為我們有一個計畫如果未來還是要去做真組的話那每一個場他勢必要有一個更及時連線的用科學的方法及時的去解決這個是我們未來要做的"},{"start":341.26,"end":369.412,"text":"部長我還是要說明一下當然地方政府最主要的責任在地方政府這個沒有爭議不過問題發生了就沒有中央地方的之分我是看你們這個計畫裡面計畫也是你們訂的你們也有賦予自己應該要做的工作是抽查我現在的建議是說以後"},{"start":371.344,"end":393.826,"text":"當然你們不可能每一家都稽查啦不過以後不要用隨機就是問題我說真的啦整體性這麼嚴重的一個問題發生最主要的事務處理還是在中央政府啦對不對那假如說事前我們有發現到"},{"start":397.13,"end":420.021,"text":"很嚴重的不正常的養豬場也好 垃圾場也好也應該要優先抽查啦我的意思是這樣子沒有任何究責的意思啦只是說觀念上可能要改變一下因為我看這個養豬場就是從書店"},{"start":422.792,"end":445.991,"text":"就是任何外行的人看抽查都應該會選他部長剛剛既然講了要用更科學的方法來做監測假如說我們還是要使用廚餘來養豬那我就也談一下因為時間的關係我就問最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":450.271,"end":472.767,"text":"越科學像譬如說台中市的環保局就表示說本案的豬籠年長不按網路操作這個我覺得這個是事實啦因為我住在很偏鄉的地方我相信很多長者對於網路新的科技對他們來講可能比"},{"start":473.507,"end":497.441,"text":"比事業本身的挑戰更大那現在都有這個問題了以後部長要再更科技那怎麼來克服這個問題我的意思就是說怎麼讓業者或者是被規範者來配合我們的政策你總是要 他不是心態上配合是說怎麼讓他可以上手"},{"start":499.241,"end":520.246,"text":"我們未來是他不用來拍照上傳直接我們有溫度計在鍋爐裡面還有CCTV直接指的這個鍋爐他有沒有操作我們都可以清楚甚至用AI的方式辨別他有沒有違法我們是希望這樣做這個你們在建制上沒有問題目前我們已經有測試一個廠那目前沒有問題"},{"start":521.327,"end":538.405,"text":"那我覺得假如是用這種方法就可以很完整的解決很多問題啦他也不用再上船嘛因為我們可能建設中心我們就看得到嘛 對不對那對於朱龍來講也不用最少不會因為"},{"start":542.17,"end":551.567,"text":"知識跟技術上它可能造成很大的困擾沒錯 就是以後不管年紀了就是會有這樣的制度來完成這些事情"},{"start":552.148,"end":576.993,"text":"好 那我最後還是因為有一些問題沒有辦法問不過我還是要提醒一下部長就是說假如說我們目前的廚餘去化量假如說真的政策上是停止廚餘養豬那怎麼做好相關的應變"},{"start":580.735,"end":585.609,"text":"這個部裡面要先事先講好 好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員的指教 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51f3004bfd468c94d114a9ab9b55a87a24ad7a5a711c0e8c8fbe8a7296b23f08fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"14:37:49 - 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嚴懲之下能夠讓我們的職災可以降低好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da512f69252ca475c7f214a9ab9b55a87a24ad7a5a711c0e8c8fb8d54088b54cead65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"14:35:45 - 14:37:42","影片長度":"00:01:57","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T14:35:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T14:37:42+08:00","duration":117,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.43909375,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.31784375000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.72721875,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.13471875,"end":119.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.695,"end":22.251,"text":"主席各位同仁这次我所提出的职业安全卫生法的修法我要强调这一版的核心精神是要让我们的防止职场霸凌正式成为法律义务而不是只是行政指导过去十年"},{"start":22.851,"end":47.385,"text":"劳动部虽然有定出不法侵害的预防指引但那只是建议没有法律拘束力也就是说雇主就算不做政府也拿他没有办法结果就是劳工在被霸凌之后往往无处申诉也得不到保护我提出的这个版本就是要把这个缺口补起来第一把防止职场不法侵害明确写进我们的立法墓地"},{"start":47.805,"end":62.939,"text":"第二增訂職場霸凌專章清楚定義什麼叫做職場霸凌要求僱主要負起預防的責任要設立申訴機制調查程序懲處規範不要再模糊了第三也設立外部的申訴機制"},{"start":64.1,"end":80.43,"text":"那当加害人是最高负责人的时候或雇主根本不处理时劳工可以直接向地方主管机关申诉情节重大者还能获得法律协助我版本还有一个特色我们不只在谈肢体安全也把心理跟人格尊严"},{"start":81.691,"end":102.816,"text":"納入到我們的勞動安全的範圍80不見得有外傷他一樣會毀掉一個人所以這版修法就是要讓尊嚴也成為正常安全的一部分最後明定罰則的部分如果雇主違反我們的防制義務責任的話那最過最高負責人本身就是加害人最高可以處罰到100萬元這不是只是罰錢而是態度的改變"},{"start":103.737,"end":116.814,"text":"職場安全不只是防止受害也要防止傷人這是我提出的修法版本的目標讓每一個工作者都能在安全又有尊嚴的職場當中工作還請我們的立法院同仁能夠支持 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14:35:37","影片長度":"00:02:22","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T14:33:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T14:35:37+08:00","duration":142,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.33846875,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.20471875,"end":130.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":141.96659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.96,"end":20.482,"text":"謝謝主席包括感謝在現場的林淑雯委員 林慧琼委員 楊亮委員還有陳昭志委員還有現場所有的官員本席這次針對執安法的提案是以行政院版為基礎但特別增加三個重點"},{"start":21.343,"end":44.191,"text":"首先就是为了要确保施工计划书的确实执行我们在第15条之一增加第三项规定要求事业单位一定要指派人员或委托专业的这个机构来监督施工计划书的执行与落实以善信工程业主采购及履约管理的责任再来这是第26条当中为了明确事业单位的承担管理责任我们也"},{"start":44.511,"end":66.264,"text":"增加要求事業單位在交付承攬前應該要對承攬廠商進行風險評估並提供承攬廠商有關案件的工作環境危害因素及應採取工地安全衛生措施等資訊好讓承攬的包商能夠做好公安而且在承攬期間事業單位應該要持續監督來確保這個承攬廠商確實落實公安"},{"start":66.664,"end":95.377,"text":"最後考量現在這個營造工程交付承攬的工的情況越來越複雜所以這個工作場所當然混有混同或共同作業的情形為了要強化工地施工安全的管理我們也在第27條當中來要求原事業單位應該要負起工地場所機械設備器具以及人員進出的管制責任希望透過工地門禁管理機制的強化來減少災害的發生同時我們也要針對於"},{"start":97.277,"end":120.566,"text":"這個失業單位如果有違反前三項規定的時候都應該有相應的這個法則此外我們也提出附帶的決議要求勞動部應該在執法當中明文處理職場霸凌外部調查員的利益迴避的規範以確保職場霸凌調查程序的公平跟公正還有我們也要求勞動部要強化僱主對於第三方不法侵害的防"},{"start":121.566,"end":138.5,"text":"的義務 像如果有病患有侵害到這個義務人權等情形 勞動部也應該要在這個職安法 相關的職法或職業裡面強化僱主應採取的這個保護措施以維護勞工的身心健康那再麻煩各位我也能夠多支持謝謝好 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Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:08:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T09:10:32+08:00","duration":135,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.92971875,"end":134.76096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.777,"end":19.337,"text":"谢谢主席 大家早安台湾高度依赖海底通讯电力 天然气 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謝謝代理主席在場的各位官員還有學者 專家大家早安今天在談論核能治理的法制化跟透明化機制來精進我國的核能安全與發展我們看到的是核能的治理與發展它並不只是電力技術的一個選擇更攸關到我國產業競爭力跟能源的安全"},{"start":31.255,"end":50.549,"text":"身為在野黨的立委我要嚴正的指出現今政府的能源政策已經脫離了國際趨勢也忽略了科學跟現實的一個需求面對氣候變遷跟淨零碳排的目標全球紛紛的重視到核能的低碳跟穩定價值"},{"start":52.23,"end":70.144,"text":"不僅歐盟把核能列為了綠能的分類美國將它納入了零碳電力的組合日本也重啟了新世代核電計畫科化國企業GoogleAppleMicrosoft等更要求供應鏈在2040年前必須要實現全時無碳的電力若台灣繼續排除核能仰賴火力發電補充勢必會被全球供應鏈"},{"start":82.794,"end":98.049,"text":"來邊緣化現今執政黨所說的再生能源可以補足電力缺口但事實上呢在2023年三大科學園區的用電呢約430度再生能源呢發電呢卻僅有270億度連供應園區都不足"},{"start":103.414,"end":119.951,"text":"那過去呢我在質詢當中呢也多次提醒當前的系統用電率呢出現超過90%的現象那備轉容量呢一度警戒甚至要偷開備用機組來撐場面包括看一下這個PPT裡面就看得到甚至在9月17號的時候"},{"start":121.94,"end":149.367,"text":"核電廠的清油機組的都全開出現在這種情況電力不足呢還需要仰賴儲備能源包括的是8到14天的儲備的天然氣作為補充一旦運輸受阻兩週內就可能陷入供電危機這就是非常大的國安問題這樣的能源結構既不綠也不安全反而將我們暴露在地緣政治的風險當中"},{"start":151.207,"end":157.228,"text":"反觀核能它的三大特性低碳 穩定 安全正是台灣最需要的"},{"start":158.379,"end":185.999,"text":"核電的排碳僅12公克的CO2當量燃料可儲備至少18個月具備高強度的韌性每度電的成本也比燃煤與燃氣低尤其核三廠才剛停機不久設施與人力仍完備若能重啟既可穩定供電也可避免龐大的興建成本因此我要呼籲"},{"start":187.406,"end":205.232,"text":"政府重正視核三廠的重啟讓核能回復到國家的能源佈局當然社會對於核能的疑慮不能夠忽視但問題的根源在於資訊不透明事實上核三廠自1984年運轉以來超過30年從來未發生重大事故"},{"start":210.137,"end":230.733,"text":"也多次通過國際能源總署的集合這些數據政府應該主動揭露讓科學證據來取代恐懼現在我要特別強調核安資訊的公開透明是重建社會信任的基礎這邊我們來看一下美國的核安"},{"start":231.854,"end":256.206,"text":"核安壞的網站他針對帕利賽茲的核電廠重啟的審查公開資訊大家可以看PPT裡面就已經從主頁當中進去就可以點到核電廠所有的審查跟會議的資訊那我們繼續往下看這個核電廠的重啟跟審查公開資訊當中包括到提交的審查時間還包括預計完成的時間雖然"},{"start":257.987,"end":283.326,"text":"核安會都有強調包括台電有說他們已經做了一些重啟就是做了一些這個可能重啟的這部分的資訊但是有沒有個時間表而且事實上每一個階段都已經寫出來了這一部分要注意到那另外我們再繼續看到剛才也有提到說有說要做環評很棒啊那我們先看到美國這邊呢他有對重啟核電廠的環境評估的審查時程這裡面包括的"},{"start":284.747,"end":302.113,"text":"核安會的受理審查 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謝謝主席也非常謝謝在場的所有的先進大家早安我想講到這個河安的一個審查台電扮演了不同的多重的一個角色我想自主的檢查並要公開透明但是台電既是營運者同時又是一個檢查者本質上是不是會讓人家覺得是求援兼裁判"},{"start":28.852,"end":46.622,"text":"我想再多的一些報告其實也沒有辦法去承擔就是我們最擔心的河岸上可能會帶來的一些風險我想如果一旦核災發生我想這個影響的不只是跨時代它跨區域甚至它的後果是完全不可逆的"},{"start":48.163,"end":69.722,"text":"比如說像福島的核災所帶來的可能的環境的一個污染跟社會的一個成本就在提醒我們其實核能沒有所謂的零風險而真正的一個安全應該是要來選擇一個不會造成不可逆後果的一個能源而不是一些檢查報告的一些堆疊這是我的以上的意見"},{"start":70.742,"end":80.427,"text":"再來其實大家都知道核廢料的風險跟治理的一個透明化這樣子的一個主題是目前為止我們都還在依舊在尋找共識當中"},{"start":82.315,"end":99.81,"text":"河南的法治其實還是存在著所謂的權責的一個重疊那跨部會的一個協調不足的一些問題其實依舊存在那整個所有的治理的一個體系的脆弱但是最重要最重要重重之重的核心其實就是核廢料"},{"start":100.31,"end":127.452,"text":"高階廢料的處置廠到現在為止我們有達到共識了嗎那在全球其實都沒有永久安全的處置的一個方法連芬蘭其實也花了50年才決定選址最終的這個處置廠但是據說他們最新的報告又繼續展現他們的一個建造囉那換句話來說只要核能還在我們的土地尤其是在台灣我們是"},{"start":128.012,"end":146.546,"text":"地震多的一個這樣子的一個地方我們的土地就要背負萬年的一個輻射的一個風險或者是核災上的一個風險那我想核廢料的處置呢包含在地的軍民他們要有知情權再來他們也要有選擇權再來他們也要利益的共享"},{"start":146.966,"end":165.539,"text":"我想荷安的風險評估報告定期也應該要公開當然也包含核廢料的一些風險才能夠真正的代表民眾他們參與的一個機制而不是說我們公開透明的資料而已但是我們還要把更多的社會共識也納入最重要的討論當中"},{"start":167.16,"end":176.492,"text":"再來其實在核災的國際及時援助我們有沒有可能在核安發生危險的同時得到國際的幫助呢"},{"start":178.735,"end":208.395,"text":"我想老舊的核電廠不管國際的訓練或者是技術上的一些交流都沒有辦法讓老化的硬體能夠回春這個我想是大概每一個人應該都知道的所以我們是不是也應該要將資源投入到所謂的這些廚藝的技術跟本土再生能源的一個研發才是我們嶄新的一個方向未來其實包含核融合的一個技術也是值得關注"},{"start":208.935,"end":232.698,"text":"那它比較不同於所謂的這個核分裂不容易產生所謂的高階的核廢料那將核融合的一些技術專業的一個人才的培訓或者是我們把這樣子的人才跟國際來做這樣子的一個交流那在廚藝跟核廢料的處理來做整合是不是才是比較有所謂的這個能源永續跟安全上的"},{"start":233.719,"end":252.624,"text":"能源的一個策略提供給大家做參考另外再講到人才專業的培養的部分我想還是要以永續的能源轉型為最重要的一個導向重點是廚藝跟核廢料的一個處置還有核融合的一個新技術我們是不是應該可以整合教育"},{"start":253.144,"end":272.251,"text":"那麼科研跟產業的一個資源來建立長期的培育的一個計畫能夠確保我們的人才不鍛煉那再來剛剛我有特別提到就核廢料的一個管理那另外呢還有我們新興的這個核融合的能源的一個發展那核能的一個人才也應該要獲得支持"},{"start":272.771,"end":292.137,"text":"那麼再來再要投入所謂的綠能、儲能另外還有智慧電網等新興的一些產業我想這才是能夠讓更多的從業人員他們在整個所有的就是他們的高階的技術力不要流失提供以上的一些參考"},{"start":292.737,"end":312.532,"text":"我想這個總結來說我們不是在討論是如何把這個老舊的核電廠管得更安全而是要正視這個核能本身的一些風險跟它治理的一個困境我想真正安全的能源其實我們是剛剛有提到就是不要留給我們跨世代不可逆的災害的一個選擇"},{"start":313.553,"end":330.533,"text":"那真正的核案呢應該是要來自所謂的零核廢料那零不可逆的一個風險還有專業人才的一個投入那我想呢這個台灣應該是要把我們這個最有限的一些資源那麼建構在安全永續的能源的系統上"},{"start":331.073,"end":355.871,"text":"那么当然很多人可能会讲说这个公投都已经过了但是大家忽略了这个核四至少还要再花十年以上尤其是我们的二号机其实是还没有完成至少还要在800亿的一个预算才会盖完那我想这个2024年我们的燃气发电占比其实也已经超过所谓的燃煤的发电那当然也许很多这个在场"},{"start":356.511,"end":363.875,"text":"的先進有不同的一些意見但是我提供我以上所知道的這些跟大家來做以上的一個分享好 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請工部長我們請工部長"},{"start":21.54,"end":44.098,"text":"部長 近年來在台澎金馬周遭的海域海底的纜線頻頻遭受到破壞所以我們在9月18號的時候通過了《海纜七法》的修正草案今天在我們經濟委員會我們特別排了《海纜三法》《電液法》跟《天然氣事業法》跟《自來水法》"},{"start":46.32,"end":71.153,"text":"那我们就是要来保护我们这个海底这个基础的设施不要受到破坏部长但是本席认为说虽然说我们修法可以来很重要可以来保护这些措施但是除了提供我们执法的法源依据之外最重要的是我们经济部的职责在发生这些事情的时候我们可以有一个"},{"start":72.433,"end":98.284,"text":"監測的方法跟我們的維護的管道那尤其是要強化海底纜線的平常時的安全的那個監測跟保護的維修的這些事情如果發生了被破壞或者是說有異常的現象的時候經濟部你的職責是應該趕快的如何跟相關的一些部會進行合作才對嘛是不是你如何進行合作是執行端因為海巡在幫我們"},{"start":100.365,"end":106.65,"text":"海上的這個執法是海巡在幫我們執法感謝他們如果事情一發生我們會跟他聯繫的趕快去處理"},{"start":109.488,"end":135.835,"text":"是 那因為這些法很重要啦我們現在法律修出來了也有刑法也有罰金那最嚴重的話也有扣船這些事情但是就如同你講的內政部還有我們海巡署但是你這個法正式通過之後要立即公告你要讓所有人知道這個法在這邊不要來觸法這樣子才能有效預防去嚇阻他們去犯法"},{"start":137.275,"end":159.333,"text":"這個才是很重要的這個一定要嚴格去執行好不好那接下來就是要跟部長來談一談就是我們的丹納斯颱風過後很多受災的縣市疏配電的系統都受到損壞那大概台灣的電力設施都是會面臨到的就是整個颱風或是豪大雨這個韌性不足"},{"start":159.793,"end":180.732,"text":"所以行政院的我們的卓院長特別針對這個電纜進行地下化的這個評估希望你們做出一個全國性電纜地下化可行性的評估報告但是本席看到你的報告裡面只有六頁都在老生常談而且講的都是在你已經在做的一些電纜的配電的疏失"},{"start":181.792,"end":206.997,"text":"設施跟我們電網的這個整個設施的計畫根本就沒有分析到說我們哪些地方要做電纜地下化還有它的期程還有預算多少這些都沒有進一步的來做說我們要如何去推動那你這些都沒有提那所以本市長請問你你今天提出來的這個報告只是初步的報告嗎還是未來你有更詳細的全面的報告"},{"start":209.219,"end":234.031,"text":"總經理跟王總報告委員這次丹納斯颱風的那個條例台電分配到的預算80億那我們80億呢那一條潰線下地的成本是4200萬所以各位委員就可以知道說我們能做的地下化的潰線的公里數大概只有200公里左右"},{"start":234.811,"end":251.373,"text":"兩百公里呢 預算不足就編預算本席今天跟你談的就是我們卓議長要你全面去檢討一下我們所有電纜地下化的評估為什麼要做地下化就是碰到颱風碰到豪大雨 我們的韌性不足啊是不是用地下化"},{"start":252.094,"end":266.966,"text":"我知道有些地段也許說地形的問題不適合做地下化但是你要評估出來嘛哪些路段要可以做了我們就要做啊你把整個計畫要怎麼去推動預算需要多少這些時程你都要規劃出來不是嗎是"},{"start":267.666,"end":288.204,"text":"我們會詳細的規劃一個比較完整的所以你今天的六月都沒有講嘛但是預算的部分也要請委員多多支持我們一定會支持但是你要把所有的評估出來另外一個就是因應國際變遷的特別預算部長 這些都知道我是說今天的六月報告沒有看到這些評估"},{"start":289.425,"end":301.555,"text":"所以這個評估只是你初步的嗎你未來有沒有具體的 詳細的包括整個的期程 電纜的地下的路段跟我們的預算多少的時程你通通會給我詳細的報告嗎會嗎 什麼時候會出來"},{"start":308.72,"end":332.69,"text":"那個預算 我們還是啦就是比較必要性的 而且需要性的 急迫性的那個部分先來做啦因為如果要全面的話那個成本上實在是太高了部長 這叫你評估報告 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黄楼山01会议室 出席委员王定宇等11人 列席委员林德福等8人列席人员 国防部部长顾立雄及所属人员 主席马遭及委员文君报告事项 一宣读上次会议 意思录决定确定二 邀请国防部部长顾立雄报告业务概况 并被质询国防部部长顾立雄报告 委员王定宇等16人质询"},{"start":1510.229,"end":1531.955,"text":"軍有國防部部長郭力雄政治作戰局局長史順文主計局局長謝啟賢軍醫局局長蔡建松陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長李慶然及國家中山科學研究院院長李士強等即席答覆決定已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":1532.695,"end":1542.881,"text":"二委員所提口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定 宣讀完畢好 那接續請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國家安全局報告近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之延期並被質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1560.011,"end":1573.825,"text":"好現在我們介紹在場委員及與會的官員我們在場陳永康委員我們國家安全局我們蔡明業局長"},{"start":1582.093,"end":1593.891,"text":"好 本日會議邀請國家安全局報告近期東亞情勢變化對我國的這個影響之延期並被質詢那現在請我們蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":1610.454,"end":1633.288,"text":"謝謝主席 主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家好非常感謝外委會今天安排本席來列席進行專案的報告我們以下僅就東亞最新的情勢以及對我國的影響評估跟各位委員先進報告如下第一部分是有關於東亞的政經情勢一 美中經貿以及戰略的角力括弧一 經貿角力爭取籌碼"},{"start":1634.659,"end":1656.596,"text":"在今年的十月上旬 我們可以看到美中相互的擴大經貿施壓的動作提高各自在經貿談判過程當中的籌碼在雙方的馬來西亞召開第五輪的經貿磋商會議當中雙方也針對延長關稅的期限 農產品的採購分泰尼的控管以及出口管制等等的議題有達成初步的共識"},{"start":1657.336,"end":1666.909,"text":"那可能後續就是由川普跟習近平兩位美中的領導人在APEC的場邊會晤來進行最後的經貿互動框架的一個確定"},{"start":1668.427,"end":1687.056,"text":"第二戰略矛盾持續的升溫那中共俄國北韓藉由九三閱兵來呃展現共抗美盟的一個態勢那共軍也持續的頻密的在台海東海跟南海來推進海空的演訓跟揮帶的洗腦那美國跟區域的友盟也密集的展開各種的雙邊跟多邊"},{"start":1689.117,"end":1707.022,"text":"實戰化的一個聯演而且進一步的邀請美國 法國 加拿大等等域外的友盟來加入相關的聯演那參演的國家演習的頻率以及演習的規模都創下了歷年之最那我們看到在演習的科目的部分主要聚焦在制空制海遠距反艦機動增援"},{"start":1708.562,"end":1736.296,"text":"網路作戰還有太空作戰等等多領域的作戰能力值得一提的是英國在今年也派遣航空母艦巡弋印太的水域期間也跟12個國家來舉行相關的海空的聯演我們從相關的聯演可以看到美盟持續地來加強在印太的一個軍事的部署共同來反制中俄的軍事協作以及來嚇阻共軍持續地擴張跟挑釁這大概是第一個部分"},{"start":1736.736,"end":1756.598,"text":"那第二部分是針對日本高市內閣外交跟安保的動向來跟各位委員先進做一個報告跟說明瓜胡一強化防衛的能力那日本的高市首相他長期以來都非常的關切中共俄國北韓的一個威脅並且以強化美日同盟俄制力作為他安保政策的施政的主軸"},{"start":1757.539,"end":1776.288,"text":"另外高市也承諾明年會加速的來完成日本防衛費用佔比達到GDP2%的一個目標同時也會再進一步的來推進跟美盟相關的聯合演訓以便來實現自由開放印太的一個施政的理念"},{"start":1777.421,"end":1799.836,"text":"國防部2展現親美友台高市首相在就任之後他把接待美國總統川普訪問日本以及建構兩人的信賴關係視為最優先的一個要務也正如我們在專案報告當中所提到的在昨天雙方的會議過程當中也重申要鞏固美日同盟讓美日同盟進入新的黃金年代"},{"start":1800.596,"end":1817.483,"text":"另外高士也主張台灣是美國非常重要的友人跟夥伴台灣有事就是日本有事所以他近期也公開的呼籲包括美國、歐洲、日本、台灣應該要建立起準安全同盟的一個合作共同來維護區域的和平跟穩定"},{"start":1818.923,"end":1839.263,"text":"第三部分是有關於中共的海上揮帶的侵擾瓜胡一台海擴權巡弋那中共持續的在台海地區進行所謂的執法巡查那除了每一個月都會派遣四次的海警編隊進入到我們的金門限制水域活動以外那也開始外擴他們海警的活動到台灣海峽中線以東"},{"start":1840.644,"end":1867.838,"text":"東沙限制水域來進行巡邏同時也對外來謬稱相關的活動是在展現中共對台海的管轄權還有控制權括弧二 南海強勢維權中共在南海地帶也是頻密地來運用海軍 海警跟海上民兵三合一 三線維權的一個模式蠶食南海各國的一個海域在過去這段時間中共的軍艦還有海警船在民主礁"},{"start":1868.638,"end":1881.111,"text":"中葉島 鐵線礁等等的海域都跟菲律賓的海警還有公務船舶發生了海上的一個衝突的事件那另外中共的船艦也多次的入侵到其他東協國家相關的專屬經濟海域引發東協各國的不滿跟抗議"},{"start":1885.035,"end":1900.749,"text":"第二大部分跟各位報告的是相關發展東亞政經情勢對我國的影響還有評估一美中競逐牽動到整體安全的態勢那在經貿科技的部分中共持續透過擴大管制稀土的出口"},{"start":1901.81,"end":1917.683,"text":"來對美國進行經貿的施壓另外美國也加速地來建構非紅供應鏈積極地跟友盟來發展相關的一個科技合作這樣的一個發展的趨勢提供了台美先進產業合作的契機有助於來提升我國的經濟韌性還有競爭力"},{"start":1919.525,"end":1948.491,"text":"另外在安全的方面那中共對台海也持續的挑釁那美盟的軍艦在今年已經執行穿越台海任務總共有五個國家 九次之多這包括了美國 日本 英國 加拿大跟澳洲那特別值得注意的是在今年的九月份澳洲跟加拿大以及美國跟英國的軍艦更是第一次分別在台海來進行聯合的一個巡航的活動那顯示美盟以具體的行動來維護區域安全遏制中共的軍事擴張"},{"start":1950.034,"end":1971.662,"text":"二、台日友好互動具有正面的利基日本新上任的高市首相非常重視台海的核穩在10月初也宣示絕對不可以以武力或脅迫的方式來片面改變現狀另外在前天高市參加東協東亞的峰會也再次重申對於台海和平穩定的一個關注"},{"start":1972.402,"end":1990.376,"text":"另外我們看到在日本新內閣的成員還有自民黨新任的幹部以及新執政聯盟的合作政黨日本維新會也都主張台日友好所以我們看到未來台日的實質合作應該渴望可以來穩定的發展增進雙方的一個交流還有互動"},{"start":1991.317,"end":2017.394,"text":"好 三 有門警戒中共複合式的威脅那台灣身處在西太平洋第一島鏈樞紐的位置那也位居國際半導體產業關鍵的一個地位那台海的穩定符合東亞國家整體的戰略利益那中共持續地在台海南海這些水域來擴權威脅那已經升高了各方的一個警戒那美國跟有門國家重申台海核穩的重要性除了加強跟我國一起來維護"},{"start":2019.115,"end":2034.109,"text":"國際半導體供應鏈的安全以外那也針對中共的對外政治的滲透軍事的擴張認知作戰網路侵害擴大跟我國來進行必要的戰略對話跟情報交流凝聚民族友盟自重的能量"},{"start":2034.85,"end":2059.666,"text":"好 最後一部分是有關於捷語那縱觀當前的東亞情勢複雜多變那我們面對中共強勢擴張的作為可以看到國際社會高度的關切印太的秩序跟台海的穩定那本局會持續的來推動國際情報的交流跟合作精進我們戰略預警的情資研收以便來相助政府的決策跟各項的應變準備共同來維護我們的國家安全跟社會的安定"},{"start":2060.046,"end":2085.901,"text":"那以上報告進行各位委員先進能夠不吝的指導那並且持續對本局的工作給予大力的支持謝謝好謝謝蔡局長報告那現在我們開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理"},{"start":2087.157,"end":2112.848,"text":"現在我們先請陳永康委員上台質詢主席好 有請國安局蔡局長好 請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員長 局長長"},{"start":2114.603,"end":2124.501,"text":"听取了刚才的报告有部分东西愿意跟您在这边再做一个更深层的讨论好有关南海强势的维权那中共在"},{"start":2125.67,"end":2152.065,"text":"南海因為在報告裡面海警團軍艦在民主礁稱黃岩島我這邊做個補充報告外交部在2015年就提出抗議就是黃岩島那麼內政部國土司發布的圖的位置也是黃岩島民主礁是馬總統任內他把他scopper show看成民主礁我們太平島在2016年南海仲裁庭被"},{"start":2153.47,"end":2155.558,"text":"化為焦 我們外交部"},{"start":2156.67,"end":2185.602,"text":"包括小英總統都提出抗議你不可以自動降為焦那同樣黃岩島我們不要去稱它民主焦外交部是稱黃岩島內政部圖也是稱黃岩島那稱成焦就把你的很多的專利權就等於放棄了這個就是國有的一些既有權益放棄了那剛才聽取了您的幾個報告我這邊要請教就是我們從每一個國家它面對的挑戰"},{"start":2187.286,"end":2210.481,"text":"他的国家原则立场目标方法手段如何达成那韩国当然他现在也强调他不介入他国的纷争可是也关切这个台海情势关切不介入那么也愿意提高预算到3%请教这个局长你在看韩国对台海事件就两岸情势的看法韩国人的立场啊"},{"start":2211.32,"end":2221.138,"text":"是如何表达另外一个就是说作为一个友好的国家之间我们有没有其他的管道可以分享一些战略情织"},{"start":2223.234,"end":2241.585,"text":"這個韓國部分因為韓國它本身在國家安全上有面臨來自於北方的威脅所以它傳統上的安全關切都聚焦在朝鮮半島對於區域的安全議題它比較沒有那麼積極的去表達立場不過在最近這幾年可以看到韓國對於台海安全的問題也開始在"},{"start":2242.285,"end":2263.525,"text":"各種的雙邊會談當中去觸及到這樣的議題特別是美韓的對話當中所以這個是一個新的發展趨勢也非常感謝韓方可以這樣來公開表述對於台海和平穩定的一個重視跟支持另外有涉及到一個議題是韓國在看待區域安全問題他們有一個關切點是在於駐韓美軍的活動"},{"start":2264.145,"end":2293.685,"text":"到底能不能在有區域緊急事態的時候抽離朝鮮半島去支應其他的狀況那預期在這一次的美韓峰會應該會碰觸到這個議題那以韓方日前對外的說明他們可能會跟美方針對駐韓美軍在緊急事態之下的彈性運用會達成某種程度的一個共識所以這也算是一個比照起韓國過去的做法來講一個比較新的突破就是容許駐韓美軍能夠更靈活的一個調度"},{"start":2294.606,"end":2308.899,"text":"但是韩国的本身在韩美联军指挥下他是当副手美军是联军指挥官也就是说韩方的部队并不能调离韩国只是您刚刚讲就是说可能让美军有更大的弹性对"},{"start":2309.58,"end":2328.488,"text":"好 了解好 我们下一张这就是日本的刚才您讲得更明确了那么日本的当然它整体的国家的量能非常大所以它的GDP提升到2%那么再加上也强化东京台北的合作至关重要尤其是今天各个媒体都报道了"},{"start":2330.389,"end":2349.009,"text":"高士跟川普他們會面確認台海和平的重要性我想在這個領域裡面我們局裡掌握的訊息就是有關區域安全我們跟日方有沒有辦法做一個就是戰略訊息的交流交換能夠大家相互支持穩定這個區域安全"},{"start":2350.489,"end":2375.557,"text":"一起回應委員剛有提到韓國還有日本跟我們之間的一個互動狀況那因為都是區域裡面的離內相近的國家那當然政府之間有各種的管道在進行溝通跟聯繫那就我負責的本局的業務來講因為情報交流一般比較有它的機敏性那也希望委員可以諒解那假如可以容許的話我們可以私下找機會跟委員做一些比較細部的報告好 謝謝"},{"start":2377.828,"end":2395.454,"text":"这个就是刚好十五大开完了中国大陆特别强调它在量子科技生物制造氢能与核聚变能脑机接口变身智能另外6G的发展部分它要走到领导地位因为这个东西对我们来讲"},{"start":2396.334,"end":2414.92,"text":"不只是一個威脅那麼也會影響整個區域的市場導向因為它會設定這個裝備的規範它設定遊戲規則那我們如何因應這個未來它的科技的成長大幅領先我們自己本身有沒有一個預應的方案請教"},{"start":2415.74,"end":2443.682,"text":"好 對 確實正如委員所提到在這一次的市中全會有所謂155的一個初步的規劃那當然它155的相關的規劃還要再做一些內部的修改以便送到明年的這個兩會來進行正式的公佈來推動相關政府後續的執行的一個動作那確實它這一次有點聚焦在所謂的新職生產力特別聚焦在高新科技的一個發展"},{"start":2444.122,"end":2459.399,"text":"那這個部分還連結到中國積極的去參與國際的一些標準制定規範的國際組織那也就是要連結到可能未來的國際標準規範能夠綁到所謂中國的相關一些產品的一個規格這個我們會"},{"start":2461.2,"end":2486.773,"text":"繼續來注意不過在這個發展過程當中也跟委員說明一下因為有遭遇到美國在一些高科技管制的一些措施所以我們有去了解一下中共相關的產業他們在政府的規劃之下他們也有一些顧慮特別是未來在很多的一些先進的設備或是半導體的取得可能也會受到美國這種非紅供應鏈以及科技"},{"start":2487.313,"end":2505.821,"text":"餐廳管制的一些效應那當然中共也在扶植他本土的相關的企業不過這部分可能是他在推動這些新職生產力或高新科技一個蠻重要的一個隱憂是 這個部分我們建議貴局要聚焦要花更多錢掌握一個狀況好 應該的最後一個 這個就是"},{"start":2510.163,"end":2532.621,"text":"金门的进限制水域这是今天早上的图在这个图里面显示了下面很多的黄色商船有七八条那么就通过金门的进限制水域另外下面很多的圆圈的都是毛破有颜色的是代表开了AIS"},{"start":2533.635,"end":2547.29,"text":"那灰色的就代表它關掉了那這個裡面就有可能是中共的漁船有別的任務或者是海警船進來關掉那這個禁限制水域我們不能叫灰色"},{"start":2548.685,"end":2569.042,"text":"但实际上呢因为国军在那边并没有部署海军而是由这个所谓的我们的海巡署在那边因为执法的船有限那对这个整个情势的掌握会影响到金门的安全那这个是因为我刚刚8点40去截取最新的资料那另外一个就是在今年底"},{"start":2569.622,"end":2580.38,"text":"他的厦门的祥安机场叫完工了因为他是IKEA的成员所以他公布他机场起降涵盖指导区半个金门呢"},{"start":2581.55,"end":2605.808,"text":"左上半边都是在它的管辖区将来这种情势对我们实质上当然我们基于非安人道精神上面我们是尊重但是对于我们实质的管辖权或者情报分享部分我们希望局里面能够掌握这部分不只是配合国防部乃至于陆委会或者是海巡署因为这里面有很多"},{"start":2606.528,"end":2622.886,"text":"重要的就是说有可能是混进商船或者是混进里面他就公然在你门口下锚停在那边迟滞那有的时候关GIS有时候根本不理你那我们做如何的应处我是觉得早一点做准备听听局长的看法"},{"start":2623.406,"end":2644.208,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒事實上海巡署在我們外離島建置的這些所謂船艦的能量也都會到第一線來排除相關的狀況跟確認相關船艦的位置還有屬性甚至我們這邊也會去分析他們船艦進入到我們的淨線制水域有沒有一些不同的樣態我印象沒有記錯的話應該已經有八九種不同的樣態"},{"start":2646.63,"end":2663.31,"text":"那這我們會持續的就整體性來做搜研第二個是針對個案的部分有沒有哪些個別的船艦有一些比較偽異常的活動那除了委員所提到的會關閉AIS以外它有的還會冒用不同船隻的MMSI的訊號所以這部分也確實造成我們在"},{"start":2664.331,"end":2681.291,"text":"監控相關水域的執行上的難度在增加當中不過我們確實有召開一些跨部會的協調我也曾經召會海巡署針對這個部分在通報、辯證以及驅離的過程當中怎麼樣讓我們國安情報機關可以更分享相關的資訊"},{"start":2682.412,"end":2710.857,"text":"那海巡目前也在爭取行政院建置更多的一個船艦應該委員也知道應該有對外說明是應該有200多億的台幣的一個船艦造艦計劃那我們希望假如預算有通過的話可以提升海巡在這方面的能量好 謝謝我們希望大家共同努力好 謝謝陳永康委員的質詢那蔡局長先請回我們補充介紹到場的委員我們羅美玲委員"},{"start":2712.486,"end":2729.355,"text":"還有林楚英委員那我們確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議的議事錄有遺漏錯誤或是需要更正之處好那我們議事錄確定好我們接著請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請蔡局長好我們請蔡局長"},{"start":2747.661,"end":2774.381,"text":"謝謝主席 羅委員早局長早 局長本期今天早上想跟局長聊一聊日本新首相高士早苗我們都知道高士早苗向來他的態度就是親美友台像今年四月份高士早苗他以眾議院的身份來到台灣的時候其實受到台派人士的歡迎所以這次高士的當選我想大家都距離很"},{"start":2774.821,"end":2790.172,"text":"深的祝福之外其實對他是有很大的期待今年4月份其實高市回到日本之後他有提到他就公開的建議就是說日本跟台灣應該要建立準安全聯盟"},{"start":2790.712,"end":2805.218,"text":"他在當眾議員的時候他其實就已經提出了這樣子的構想那甚至在當選這個自民黨的黨魁之後呢他再次重申了這個安倍的這個名言就是台灣有事就是日本有事我想這句話其實意義非常的深"},{"start":2806.138,"end":2816.707,"text":"不是說你是我的兄弟那種感覺其實高市也好安倍也好他很清楚就是說在地緣政治來講或者是在區域安全來講的話確確實實就是台灣有事日本一定會有事所以為什麼這次高市當選為首相之後他主張將國防軍費佔GDP2%的目標提前到今年底就要完成"},{"start":2832.139,"end":2857.766,"text":"原先是明年底他提早兩年來完成所以變成就是說他很清楚這個區域安全的重要性這個國防安全軍備的重要性所以以過去這個高市他對於台灣這種友台的態度對於中國的態度過去來講他是比較強硬的所以我想請教就是說以高市的這友台的態度跟強化對中"},{"start":2859.346,"end":2875.221,"text":"警戒跟制衡的狀況之下未來會如何影響東亞的局勢我想委員剛剛已經很完整的把高市首相的一些安保政策的一個路線跟思維做得非常明顯的一個清楚的一個勾勒"},{"start":2875.942,"end":2905.11,"text":"那大概判斷上來講第一個他會強化美日安保那在昨天的這個川高會吧過程當中也去提到了要讓美日安保進入新的黃金年代展示了加強美日安保的一個決心那他也認為美日安保有一些弱項要去強化那包括要去加強日本的遠程打擊的火力那以及網路作戰的能力那這一部分幾乎切入的角度就是在於美日安保比較弱的一個項目"},{"start":2905.45,"end":2927.894,"text":"看起來他有這樣的一個決心那透過防衛預算的增加來支應日本這一方面的一個財政的支援那第二部分是在美日安保的架構之下他很有可能還會去串聯出所謂美日加N的一個更多邊的合作機制那這也是委員剛好提到那高市有一直在倡議可能美日加上其他的理念相近國家"},{"start":2928.614,"end":2950.745,"text":"應該有這種準安全合作準安全同盟的概念所以我想第二個重點就在於一個穩固的美日安保之下所延伸出來的美日加恩理念相近國家的合作機制那這樣的合作機制有可能反映的是包括在供應鏈的安全包括在應處區域的這些比較揮帶的騷擾或中共的一個軍事動態"},{"start":2952.006,"end":2959.946,"text":"那就本局來講我們當然有我們的管道在進行這方面的戰略溝通那不過可能不適合來公開的說明這樣"},{"start":2961.387,"end":2978.52,"text":"所以你們其實在高市早苗上任之後其實台灣有很多這方面的管道在跟我們日本新的政府在做溝通因為高市一再的強調所謂的FOIP這也是2016年安倍所提出來的"},{"start":2983.904,"end":2995.657,"text":"一個自由開放的印太區域的這個構想我想他也說台灣其實可以創立這個準安全同盟所以我們也在認為說他上任之後是不是準安全同盟這個構想會成形可能是指日可待的只是說這樣子的一個同盟的它的一個"},{"start":3005.848,"end":3028.753,"text":"過去的這個態度會不會說造成一個東亞一個新的一個局面它跟過去石破茂的這個態度其實是有一點不太一樣的它處事的方式還有積極度來講的話我在想對東亞未來的局勢應該會有一定的影響可能局長覺得說這方面不是這個時候不是那麼的方便來"},{"start":3029.893,"end":3040.529,"text":"做說明嗎還是怎麼樣我們基本上講的這些政策發展方向都是對的也都有在進行我剛剛只是在說明說有些進行的實際的狀況比較不適合公開的討論這種所謂的安全的合作"},{"start":3045.155,"end":3067.137,"text":"現在的安全觀幾乎都是比較綜合性的安全觀所以我才會跟委員報告這種綜合性安全觀之下的一個合作有可能是包括經濟安全的有可能是包括非從統安全的那也有可能是針對傳統安全軍事活動相關情資的交換或是戰略溝通的機制這個部分都會透過各種管道用方式來進行這樣"},{"start":3068.138,"end":3085.857,"text":"OK 好了解謝謝局長再來下一題就是要提到這兩天我在想局長你應該有注意到那個報導就是中國籍的偷渡客在等待遣返的期間可能會造成一些國安的疑慮我們在想說以目前的這個現行的收容制度對這偷渡客尤其是中國的"},{"start":3086.337,"end":3104.99,"text":"偷渡客是不是造成了很大的一個漏洞那像現行的這個制度的話這個偷渡客被逮捕之後就會進入司法的審理我們會移交移民署會移交到地檢署然後進行司法的審理之後就會進入到收容所可是收容所它收容的時間最長就150天"},{"start":3106.572,"end":3122.829,"text":"我們也知道說現在我們跟中國之間遣返的作業其實也幾乎是等於停滯所以他收容了150天之後就轉為收容替代處分"},{"start":3123.61,"end":3148.304,"text":"也就是在收容替代處分這段期間它其實是可以在台灣爬爬造的所以最近這兩天我們看到這報導也有說來到台灣之後回到那裡突然間就把在台灣過去這個在收容替代處分期間所拍攝到的一些影片然後上傳到YouTube然後再來跟大家說明說我是怎麼樣偷渡的我的路線是怎麼樣等等"},{"start":3149.204,"end":3170.019,"text":"讓人覺得說我們台灣對這方面真的非常的鬆散所以我想請教局長我們國安單位有沒有要來做檢討到底目前我們現行的制度是不是存在了一些風險我們有沒有做過評估因為他們絕對不是單純的移民管理的問題他們是中國的偷渡客之前我有看檢察總長曾經提說目前我們看到中國的偷渡客很多跟過去不太一樣"},{"start":3176.904,"end":3199.43,"text":"過去的話大概就是偷渡過來就是躲躲藏藏可是他們現在不是他等著你來抓他是他們都已經研究過了沒關係我就是等你們來抓我然後我進入到收容所之後我就等待那個空窗期那我就開始來收集情資這是不是造成很大的安全的漏洞我們這部分有沒有來做檢討有沒有做討論跟我說明一下這大概分為幾個部分第一個部分當然是不要"},{"start":3200.15,"end":3226.034,"text":"有偷渡客上岸因為一上岸之後就會啟動我們所謂的入出國管理法的一些處置程序那第二部分是針對這些偷渡客相關比較全面性的樣態我們都有在分析來自於哪個地方他偷渡的求渡的工具是什麼那以及他個人的一些背景我們會做一些交叉比對來看有沒有一些基本的樣態這是第二部分"},{"start":3226.494,"end":3248.42,"text":"那第三部分是針對個案的部分那每一個偷渡客他可能有不同的狀況我們會來了解一下每一個個案的實際的一個情形那他假如走完我們的法律程序之後沒有辦法立刻遣送回中國的話那當然會進入到委員所提到的替代收容的一個階段那這部分當然就是他每天都要定期到指定的一個警察機關來做報導"},{"start":3250.16,"end":3275.105,"text":"那假如說有比較特殊的案例的話那我們國安情報機關也會再特別注意一下他們的動態有沒有去侵犯到我們的一個國安的疑慮可是本席是懷疑說剛才局長講的都沒有落實為什麼有些偷渡客他可以到 就是在你說每天都要去報到嘛可是為什麼他有時間到小琉球去拍影片他可以到處趴趴照"},{"start":3275.925,"end":3291.645,"text":"所以這個我們真的有在落實可能也許是空有法令可是沒有實際上的執行我想這國安單位都要來檢討再來的話是針對這種中國籍的偷渡客真的樣態真的跟過去不太一樣"},{"start":3292.906,"end":3320.694,"text":"所以說我覺得這部分真的是要重新來做檢討他們真的不是一般的移民管理的問題跟一般的非法逃獄移工是不一樣的針對這些對象我們要如何加強來管理尤其是這些反正你等著我們的檢調單位等著警察來海巡等著他們來拘捕然後一副跟過去真的不一樣的這些都是很特殊很特別的樣態要特別的去做留意"},{"start":3320.934,"end":3345.924,"text":"我們謝謝委員的提醒那我們也會持續的來跟移民單位來畢竟夜館單位是在移民單位那在這些大陸偷渡客替代收容的階段他的一個活動的形態是不是該有更多的一個規範那這部分我們來跟移民單位做討論那我特別強調的是只要真的是有比較特殊或有問題為異常 為常異常的個案那我們會有特殊的方式專案來處理"},{"start":3347.885,"end":3362.468,"text":"這部分可能我可能會再找國安局再來討論因為針對這個部分我們覺得其實其實不是那麼的單純我們是不是太過於松散了OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅美玲委員那蔡局長先請為好 接下來有請陳婷筠委員陳婷筠 蔡局長"},{"start":3380.728,"end":3405.879,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請蔡局長有請蔡局長好 局長早各位很早局長 就中共所召開的這個市中全會觀察以及後續的相關動態我想在上次的質詢當中這個主題我想再延續來請教我們局長上次跟局長您詢問到這個市中全會"},{"start":3407.119,"end":3431.554,"text":"他相關的這個預測在這個上週四會議落幕之後我們從公開的這個資訊當中也看到確實除了這個十五五的這個規劃之外在會前就有包括這個何衛東苗華等九名上將因違反他們黨紀的相關問題涉嫌嚴重職務犯罪數額特大"},{"start":3433.322,"end":3457.907,"text":"特別巨大 被開除黨籍及軍籍造成軍事降臨一波人事動盪甚至解放軍報還發表社論指責他們信仰坍塌 忠誠失節嚴重破壞黨指揮槍原則和軍委主席的負責制等等由此聯想 除了"},{"start":3459.127,"end":3469.717,"text":"反腐敗的官方事由之外這九名上將是否可能有其他的罪名我們國安局有沒有相關的掌握訊息"},{"start":3472.19,"end":3492.26,"text":"對 剛剛委員在投影片上面大概也把這次四中全會我們觀察的重點議題也都大概羅列出來了謝謝大概可以看到的是這九名上將遭到雙開顯示說可能共軍內部這種貪腐跟忠誠的問題非常嚴重我們也注意到像委員提到的中共的軍媒"},{"start":3493.26,"end":3515.337,"text":"軍方的媒體在評論這些案件的時候用字遣詞非常的強烈是以前比較沒有看到的一個狀況那我上次也跟委員報告事實上不只這九名我們掌握的有16名的上將大概從去年12月到現在都沒有公開露面所以當時也跟委員預測說可能會有比較大規模的整肅跟調查的一個動作"},{"start":3516.318,"end":3529.934,"text":"另外是在這一次的市中全會的過程當中比較值得注意的是原本是應該有205位的中央委員但是出席的只有168位有37位是沒有出席的"},{"start":3531.015,"end":3556.283,"text":"因為沒有出席的包括之前被查辦的以及剛剛跟委員說明的長期沒有出現的那比例非常的高等於是佔了205名裡面的18%那這代表說那個調查的規模非常的大那另外延續性的問題也跟在畫面上委員所提到的就中央軍委的部分那中央軍委看起來是維持4名的中央軍委那並沒有再增補人員"},{"start":3557.143,"end":3577.194,"text":"而且剛跟委員提到的中央委員的候補、地補的11名的名單也都跳過了軍方的代表所以這整體看下來可能顯示習近平對於軍方的降臨還是不太信任所以由張生明來直接接任軍委副主席因為張生明已經67歲了"},{"start":3578.655,"end":3600.509,"text":"所以我們判斷上比較像是一個過渡性的人物不過他反映的是中共領導人對於軍方比較年輕一代將領的不信任所以中軍委的這種組成結構的縮小化那會不會造成領導人在軍事決策的偏聽或是造成一些軍事決策風險那這部分我們會再來注意好"},{"start":3602.47,"end":3621.21,"text":"就即便他們這個剛剛那個局長您所說的缺席的這個名單雖然他們有一些這個人因為是習近平主持的這個市中全會會缺席就蠻奇怪了那他們缺席的名單沒有公布那缺席的人這麼多是不是代表"},{"start":3621.99,"end":3643.481,"text":"在這一輪的整肅的高層官員當中遠多於我們報導的人數那這個情況到底是怎樣我們國安局有沒有確實去了解他有 這我們都有了解缺席的名單我們通通都有掌握然後他有的是軍方的有的是政府部門的有的是黨務部門的所以看起來範圍是蠻廣的"},{"start":3645.282,"end":3673.436,"text":"那以前也沒有看過缺席狀況有這麼高那再加上剛剛在各位說明的連地埔的委員都跳過軍方的代表那這個老實講已經打破了我們長期對中共黨政運作觀察的一些慣例所以幾乎反映的一個意涵是在於在習近平獨攬軍權跟政權的情況之下已經開始出現一些新的運作模式或人事任命的一個方式這是比較全新的一個做法"},{"start":3674.716,"end":3693.464,"text":"另外我想請教我們局長在這次的公報當中顯示了中國在下一個五年經濟發展的規劃主要的方向他其中對台的部分只有提到要推動兩岸關係和平發展推動祖國統一大業這幾個字基本上"},{"start":3694.324,"end":3713.35,"text":"看起來就是老調重談在這次市中全會的公報內容與國安會預測的內容是否一致其中是否隱藏有什麼政治意涵局長你怎麼解讀就事實上在市中全會之前它的地方的黨部已經密集的在開會"},{"start":3714.43,"end":3740.5,"text":"我們的方法論大概是從這些密集的地方性的黨務會議當中我們就會去收集延期在正式的四中全會可能會有哪些議題做呈現以及呈現在四中全會的公報裡面基本上我們的觀察是發現到說在這一次的公報當中並沒有特別去針對習近平的接班的問題有任何的隱含式的討論 沒有"},{"start":3741.48,"end":3756.28,"text":"那這代表他在大權在握之下可能還沒有在這一部分的接班佈局做更進一步的安排那第二部分是我們也預測到那可能在之前跟我們報告的軍方將領的大規模的清洗情況之下"},{"start":3756.861,"end":3779.655,"text":"那可能習近平在軍方的人事的任命上會非常的謹慎慎重那從實際的四中全會發展也大概印證了這樣的一個觀察不管是在中央委員的地補或是在中央軍委會的人員的地補上那看起來他都非常的保守所以大概我們事前預判的方式以及"},{"start":3780.856,"end":3801.741,"text":"跟原來的觀察大概差別不大那上次委員也有指導到市中全會經貿上的可能的重點那大概也跟委員之前報告的狀況差不多新職生產力擴大內需刺激國內的動能以及開放貿易好 那軍委方面我想有一個問題想請教局長這一次這個由這個張申明"},{"start":3804.362,"end":3824.396,"text":"來接任這個軍委的副主席安排那我們判斷可能是出於什麼樣的這個考量是否代表後續可能還會有大規模的一個內部整肅那另外先前也提到中國的這個國防部長董軍可能會出自於什麼樣的原因導致他沒有辦法接任中央軍委的這個位置我們國安局怎麼判斷"},{"start":3825.156,"end":3843.593,"text":"對 因為張申明來接任中央軍委的副主席剛好說明過因為他年紀是比較長一點 已經67歲了更不要講張又俠已經72了吧這代表說他對於年輕的將領還沒有那麼信任我們判斷是應該都還有在做一些相關的考核跟調查"},{"start":3843.993,"end":3867.171,"text":"而在大規模的考核跟調查完成之前讓可能中共領導人在任命軍方的人士他非常的非常的謹慎這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分是針對董軍的部分那因為董軍是有國防部長的身份那傳統上國防部長負責的主要是對外的國防的交流那從董軍沒有進入到中央軍委會"},{"start":3867.891,"end":3893.42,"text":"我們的一個解讀可能還是在於說因為習近平現在軍權在握他也沒有特別在意說要不要讓負責國際交流的國防部長進入到軍委會這個作戰指揮或軍中管理體系裡面來所以可能他的評估看起來跟過去是比較不一樣不過這部分可能還要持續觀察以前真的是沒有發生過親民中央軍委"},{"start":3894.74,"end":3918.224,"text":"目前只有4名的狀況還運作這麼久以前沒有所以我剛才才跟委員說明是一個新的運作的方式好 那目前這個解放軍在指揮層的這個缺員是否會影響到他們對台的規劃和能力那在增補前的這一段期間中共有沒有可能會採取其他的行動來轉移內部的壓力這部分局長您的看法"},{"start":3919.044,"end":3947.094,"text":"對 他大概懸缺的這些軍事的重要的指揮或司令員的這些職務都有相關的一個代理人這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分的說明是也確實從他這兩年來的大規模的整肅不管是火箭軍的系統 軍備的系統 還是政工的系統在整肅調查的過程當中中共的軍事演訓也都持續地在進行"},{"start":3947.734,"end":3968.881,"text":"那所以這不能排除說中共是透過軍事演訓在轉移軍中內部整肅的這個焦點那也透過軍事演訓來讓部隊能夠軍心比較穩定一點聚焦在一些軍事訓練的活動那第三個部分可能也要注意的就是說在上層的中共的軍事將領到遭到大規模的整肅跟清洗之後"},{"start":3969.361,"end":3981.14,"text":"年輕一代將領為了求積極的表現會不會在有一些對外的軍事活動出現一些比較爭取表現或冒進的動作這個部分我們還在持續的觀察跟分析"},{"start":3981.991,"end":4003.844,"text":"好 那從這次這個市中全會從會前到會後那何局長你討論下來我覺得我們國安局確實也有在掌握那可是後續的一些中共和解放軍他內部的相關情報也請我們國安局持續掌握掌握能夠積極的去了解是好 謝謝 謝謝局長好 謝謝那也謝謝剛才前面兩位委員的代班好"},{"start":4011.479,"end":4033.32,"text":"好 我們接下來進行詢問大家的委員是林楚英委員謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 林委員早"},{"start":4034.141,"end":4049.239,"text":"局長早安我想這個有關於中國對於台灣的這個文攻武嚇之外現在是不是已經步步逼近到對於我們中華民國的立法委員的人身安全也遭到中國的鎖定我們知道"},{"start":4049.859,"end":4074.811,"text":"我們國防外交委員會的沈博洋委員在昨天中國也就是重慶的公安部的一指這個所謂對外的新聞稿之後那麼他就正式被所謂中國來立案這種所謂的長臂管轄的部分喔那麼真的是影響到了那這個案子我想昨天相關單位包括國安局陸委會應該都有針對這個部分來做一個相關的這個討論是吧"},{"start":4077.194,"end":4096.042,"text":"對 這案子我們很重視很重視 那麼當然中國對於台灣這樣的一個長臂管轄的示範已經不是第一次但是我想沈博洋委員這個恐怕會是第一個這樣的一個案例那麼現在甚至於開始有前立委在臉書"},{"start":4098.417,"end":4115.093,"text":"說如果沈伯陽委員只要一旦離開台灣那麼中國可能就會對他進行逮捕首先我想要詢問的是國安局對這個部分包括沈伯陽委員的人身安全有沒有再進行進一步的關心跟了解"},{"start":4115.914,"end":4133.393,"text":"好 這大概幾個部分就這個動作來講我們把它解讀是中共刻意的羅織罪名來針對不同意見的人士來進行跨域的脅迫當然我們自由民主國家是不管政府或國人不會容許有這樣的一個脅迫動作那國際社會也不會"},{"start":4134.574,"end":4162.404,"text":"也不會認同這大概是基本問題的本質至於委員本身的一個安全的問題我們也會跟相關的警政單位在境內的時候要來注意也要避免到有在地協力者會去對委員做一些跟蹤或是其他的一個脅迫的動作這個不能排除所以要做好相關的一個準備另外就是境外的部分境外的部分確實也要注意到因為中共它跟一些比較友好的"},{"start":4163.024,"end":4182.893,"text":"友中親中的國家那他可能有他的一些引渡的一個措施那這部分我也會建議那個鋪馬委員這邊可能也要稍微注意一下對於那些比較親中友中的國家還是海外行程還是要注意一下就是要提高警戒對要提高警戒但是局長會不會覺得在這個時刻就有人特別透過臉書"},{"start":4184.153,"end":4202.629,"text":"然後來散發這樣的一個訊息是不是有一種好像不管是幸災樂禍也好或者是藉機幫中國來進行恫嚇也好就是好像認為真的對外就宣稱好像中國對於台灣甚至於台灣的政治人物民意代表具有這樣的一個"},{"start":4203.81,"end":4218.198,"text":"境外的所謂長臂管轄的權利那麼這樣的說法是不是也會造成恐慌那也就是說有一個案例之後可以有更多的案例那麼這個對於國人來說當然我們一方面我們要提高警覺之外是不是這樣的言論也會有助於中國在用別的形式來恫嚇台灣人民"},{"start":4223.201,"end":4246.296,"text":"我想這部分委員說的沒有錯,事實上中共這樣的動作宣示性比較大,沒有實質的意義,因為它不可能能夠跨進到我們國家裡面來所謂的常備管轄。不過在國內的討論過程當中,我們還是會建議不要去落入中共所設的議題框架,"},{"start":4246.696,"end":4264.297,"text":"因為他操作這個議題進行這種跨境的脅迫目的就是在對台灣進行法律戰心理戰跟輿論戰那假如不小心落入中共的論述框架的話你是在助長他進行這樣的一個政治宣示達到一個恫嚇的效果所以這部分我們是強烈的不建議好"},{"start":4264.838,"end":4282.896,"text":"那麼其實這個部分可以看到中國用各種方式來對台灣進行所謂您剛剛說的法律戰 輿論戰尤其是心理戰剛剛羅美玲委員所問的就是中國利用所謂偷渡的形式是不是也是另外一種滲透台灣的方式"},{"start":4283.456,"end":4309.376,"text":"那麼剛剛我有特別聽到的是局長特別提到的是對於他們目前的樣態如果是有特殊性的話你們會做其他專案的處理但是我再來幫這個局長來做一個脈絡上面的說明然後我們再來進行討論希望局長可以有更進一步的這個說明就是2024年的6月中國籍的前海軍的艦長這位軟性的艦長他是"},{"start":4312.759,"end":4317.381,"text":"架著這個艦艇偷渡來台灣2025年的2月他服刑期滿之後就送到移民署來收容2025年的7月就今年7月他收容屆滿之後就變成是收容替代處分就在台灣生活可是在這樣的一個過程當中他竟然可以接受媒體的訪問把這樣的方式分享出去而且他所選擇的媒體是透過YouTube頻道也就是"},{"start":4341.673,"end":4371.073,"text":"事實上我說大家都知道啦中國的人除非翻牆啦當然說現在國台辦也直接示範翻牆給全中國人民看翻牆無罪只要有關係就沒關係但是顯然這種就是一種對外的宣示表示說台灣今天你要想辦法偷渡而且你要在台灣輕輕鬆鬆的落地生活這個漏洞在這裡而且示範給大家看果不其然前兩天進週刊又報導了另外一位"},{"start":4372.074,"end":4385.326,"text":"也是偷渡成功那麼他的說法甚至於是講說他本來要去菲律賓但是我們都知道以他的這個所謂他的配備根本到不了菲律賓甚至於檢查他的手機他是甚至於有去"},{"start":4386.494,"end":4409.057,"text":"查詢Google過這一位軟性的這個所謂中國籍的軟性的海軍的將領軍官的這個來偷渡來台灣的方式那麼我要講的就是如果以目前這個狀態他的漏洞就存在於入出國籍移民法以及兩岸人民關係條例這個部分就是當他在服刑期滿可是當中國"},{"start":4410.258,"end":4428.756,"text":"講白了就是中國不想要把它帶回去那麼我們就送不了它所以這個案例它已經顯現出了法律上的漏洞那麼我想請問國安局跟陸委會跟移民署有沒有要就這個法律漏洞把它補起來因為太多個案而且可能個案未來是一個一個應接不暇"},{"start":4431.278,"end":4457.973,"text":"對 就每一個個案的狀況可能都不盡相同那委員剛剛的一個諮詢主要的聚焦的議題是在於說在他服完刑期之後替代收容期間到底怎麼樣來做一些管理那這部分有跟夜管單位移民署做過一些討論那移民署確實有一些行為的規範那至於委員所提到的那個接受媒體的採訪的部分我們還有特別去了解目前的規範沒有限制這樣的一個動作"},{"start":4459.634,"end":4488.099,"text":"不過我們也有了解他採訪的過程他大概都主要是跟海外的中國民運人士在討論中國的人權壓迫相關的一個問題所以相關的資訊我們會持續來注意那另外在制度上有沒有怎麼樣來防弊的部分那這部分我們再跟移民單位來做進一步的討論因為我剛剛也在跟羅美玲委員說明因為每個個案的狀況都不盡相同但是假如有比較微常異常的個案的話我們會特別來注意"},{"start":4488.359,"end":4511.35,"text":"好那麼如果是這樣的話局長認為現在這兩個個案有沒有違常有沒有異常的部分因為我知道局長現在當然面對這個法規上面確實沒有明確的規定的時候是很難去做判定的但是像這樣他可以直接大剌剌的接受媒體的訪問甚至於可以透過"},{"start":4512.911,"end":4534.808,"text":"這樣的方式變成是另外一種的教學就是入侵台灣的一個教學或者是滲透台灣的教學甚至於他可以在台灣趴趴走拿手機然後收集情資等等我說實話啦這樣子真的不用在野黨提什麼中配六改四啦用這個方法就可以直接入侵台灣而且留下來在台灣生活只要做幾年牢就好了"},{"start":4536.348,"end":4550.357,"text":"對 完全了解委員的關切那事實上之前就一直有在注意這樣的一個狀況那針對替代收容期間的一些行為的規範那我剛才跟委員報告說明過我們再跟移民單位好 那麼可不可以就是再找時間針對這個部分把這樣的樣態我們除了做進一步討論之外也能夠對外做一個公告我相信相關的單位也知道這樣子什麼樣的樣態不可行那如果這樣的樣態不可行的時候我們到底要怎麼處理是再把它"},{"start":4565.587,"end":4587.771,"text":"抓進去關嗎也不太可能台灣是一個自由民主的國家那讓他留在台灣是不是就會成為新的滲透者或在地協力者我希望國安局跟移民署還有陸委會要一起來把這個問題做一個解決因為問題已經出現了好我們來注意好謝謝林楚英委員局長請回接下來進行巡導委員馬文君委員"},{"start":4600.736,"end":4601.902,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請局長來 局長請"},{"start":4609.318,"end":4615.68,"text":"好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們"},{"start":4637.828,"end":4647.157,"text":"大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期"},{"start":4658.647,"end":4663.55,"text":"芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎"},{"start":4682.003,"end":4696.411,"text":"好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼"},{"start":4697.111,"end":4713.212,"text":"那政務委員所提到在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難"},{"start":4714.613,"end":4739.482,"text":"針對芬太尼還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題"},{"start":4740.582,"end":4756.284,"text":"不過這部分委員應該也有注意到Rubio國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇這是他的官方宣示而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話"},{"start":4757.726,"end":4772.363,"text":"美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述不過實際的援手互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣"},{"start":4773.204,"end":4777.987,"text":"雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後"},{"start":4801.882,"end":4812.032,"text":"大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上"},{"start":4818.658,"end":4822.822,"text":"可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變"},{"start":4838.058,"end":4841.28,"text":"會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應"},{"start":4865.074,"end":4884.229,"text":"所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這一個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛"},{"start":4895.017,"end":4911.786,"text":"大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊"},{"start":4917.671,"end":4945.065,"text":"好 就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們"},{"start":4945.825,"end":4967.062,"text":"了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個"},{"start":4968.323,"end":4993.077,"text":"比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的準確"},{"start":4993.117,"end":4998.561,"text":"我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好"},{"start":5009.209,"end":5014.071,"text":"我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害"},{"start":5037.257,"end":5044.819,"text":"所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌"},{"start":5065.803,"end":5069.526,"text":"把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也"},{"start":5082.036,"end":5100.144,"text":"大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備"},{"start":5102.465,"end":5119.509,"text":"聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機"},{"start":5122.048,"end":5144.658,"text":"最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是"},{"start":5145.959,"end":5149.382,"text":"自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生"},{"start":5166.476,"end":5179.971,"text":"這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式"},{"start":5180.632,"end":5200.238,"text":"或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案它有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論"},{"start":5201.878,"end":5221.125,"text":"那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發聲尤其像國安單位或國防部"},{"start":5224.406,"end":5229.81,"text":"每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實用使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢所以在預算上面既然我們要編那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望"},{"start":5249.924,"end":5264.566,"text":"提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來我一句話跟委員報告因為我們是國家情報機關"},{"start":5265.427,"end":5291.584,"text":"主要是針對這個現象情質我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做數號的報告謝謝馬文君委員國安局我們其實已經有修訂法律如果沒有經允許在國防採購用中國的零組件是三年以下有期徒刑那個不是減量發包的問題"},{"start":5293.498,"end":5298.822,"text":"對 好 謝謝接下來進行詢問的委員是徐曉欣委員謝謝主席 我們是不是有請國安局長來 局長請謝謝主席 徐委員早"},{"start":5316.125,"end":5339.913,"text":"早 那今天想要詢問就是在月中的時候那中共官方他們其實也不是第一次了他們有貼出這個懸賞我國這個新戰大隊人員的個資跟照片那當然我知道他是隸屬國防部的政戰局新戰大隊但是他這個是攸關國安問題所以今天也想要來詢問一下國安局的"},{"start":5341.153,"end":5362.099,"text":"那除了這個國防部主管之外那我想要請問國安局在這個議題上面的研究那狀態到底是什麼樣子然後呢後續有沒有能夠協處的這個情形謝委員關切這個問題因為這涉及到我們國軍官兵的個資還有甚至是人身安全"},{"start":5363.999,"end":5392.939,"text":"已經有幾波的中共公布這樣的我們的國軍官兵的個資那大概的狀況有點就是在進行所謂的常備管轄進行這種心理戰或輿論的一個恫嚇那這些名單以委員現在畫面所呈現的新戰大隊來講那有很多是中共方面它透過公開情資去做拼湊的委員可能會知道因為新戰隊的這些相關的國軍官兵的同仁"},{"start":5393.419,"end":5421.074,"text":"他們有的都是在我們的國軍的媒體當記者包括像是那個青年日報或是漢森電台所以從公開情資就可以收集到早年歷來的這些相關的個資那中共只是把這些過去公開的個資做拼湊那有些照片也貼錯了然後那個身份也都是錯誤的那甚至可以跟委員報告還有當事人跑去警局報案"},{"start":5421.394,"end":5441.981,"text":"我理解因為我有看到相關的新聞但是因為這個錯誤的資訊他也有錯誤資訊衍生的這個問題就是說他現在發布這個懸賞通告那如果他有一些是錯誤的資訊但是有這樣子一個當事人那他未來他可能到港澳或者是說他到中國大陸的時候他被懸賞了"},{"start":5443.061,"end":5465.825,"text":"但他可能其實他可以去的原因是因為他根本就不是他根本就不是我們星戰的隊員那他當然他是沒有管制嘛那他當然是可以到大陸或是港澳那結果呢他竟然是在因為一個錯誤資訊然後是被懸賞的這個狀態那對這上面的這些當事人來說是不是他就變成是一個缺乏保護的機制"},{"start":5466.525,"end":5489.598,"text":"那我們在國安局在這整個包含是我們這個新戰大隊實際上面就是說正確的資訊的引力避免這個中共的這個掌握或是滲透以及錯誤的資訊上面如何去保障我們國人他不管在旅遊或者是他平常時行動的這個安全上面那局長這裡有沒有一些可以提供說明跟參考的"},{"start":5490.058,"end":5510.079,"text":"大概跟委員做幾個面向的資訊的補充跟說明那第一個部分是怎麼樣來防範有國軍官兵弟兄的各自外流的部分那這個議題因為前一陣子馬文君委員也有關切那也希望本局提供一個本局的做法來給國防部的單位做參考"},{"start":5510.7,"end":5537.943,"text":"那我們已經有完整的把這個本局的做法跟馬委員這邊提供書面的報告那也把這個書面的報告提供給國防部做參考希望能夠來阻止進一步的國軍官兵弟兄資訊的外流這是第一部分那第二部分是有一些被外流的這些名單那假如是過去曾經在國防部服役的弟兄因為剛剛有跟委員說明因為過去的公開情資有可能國軍包括接受頒獎還有擔任記者都會有名單外流"},{"start":5538.243,"end":5563.065,"text":"那這部分國防部我來幫國防部說明一下雖然不是我的夜館那他們有一個輔導的機制那會逐一的來跟這些同仁來做接觸跟說明那看有沒有要協助的地方包括他們的家人那有沒有在假如到對岸去經商旅遊遭到刁難所以是有一個機制在的那再來就是委員所提到的第三種狀況他不是當事人但是被貼錯了"},{"start":5564.266,"end":5579.373,"text":"那個頭像以及資訊那這部分確實也要來注意所以我剛才跟委員說明也曾經有當事人遇到這個狀況去跟警方報案他覺得他可能會被誤解那這方面希望說國安局可以多一些協助是因為國防部他們基本上第一個業務眾多"},{"start":5580.834,"end":5606.768,"text":"那第二個可能他們在這個除了這個被發布宣傳通告啊然後有這個借貨消息啊然後或者是說有報案的情況之下可能會去協處但是整體的這個情資的蒐集那我覺得國安局這裡如果能夠協同然後提供相關的這個訊息給國防部雙邊一起協處的話那會更完善因為像您剛提到的三個層次那三個層次都很重要"},{"start":5607.488,"end":5635.233,"text":"但是從國防部的角度來說他可能關注的比較多是他們自己國防部本身新站大隊的成員所以希望在這整個三個層次上面國安局能夠多多給予國防部更多的協助跟委員說明一下因為征戰局本來也就是我們國安情報機關的一個成員所以我們應該會透過我們的機制來再協助另外有一個問題就是關於這個央廣的微波站入侵的問題"},{"start":5638.554,"end":5658.882,"text":"這個當時因為央廣其實是我們國家重要的基礎設施先前有點時間了10月15號的事情那時候我本來就想要詢問不過時間的關係有三名內鬼工程師攻擊官網然後放置中共的五星旗的資安事件當時也有不少的委員來做詢問"},{"start":5660.603,"end":5682.012,"text":"但是另外在去年9月的時候在陽廣的後方圓山山腰的微波站是不是也有一起外籍人士入侵的事件就是說一個德國籍的年輕人他用觀光的名義入境無故侵入了微波發射台的機房內意外遭到反鎖他就沒有辦法離開"},{"start":5683.192,"end":5711.925,"text":"那這個人呢他試圖想要開門但花了好幾個小時那沒有成功那最後呢這個發給德國跟家人朋友求救那後來向外交部去報案那在這個情況之下那國安局對於類似的情況有沒有掌握然後呢像這種到了我們的關鍵基礎設施因為不管他的國籍是什麼他都有可能是都有可能不是說這個人都有可能是被滲透的情況"},{"start":5712.685,"end":5739.122,"text":"因為今天你要滲透或者是說要入侵關鍵基礎設施他不一定要他本國籍的人來做這件事情他也可以委託或是暗示或者是用滲透他國的國籍人員的方式來做這件事情所以說對於我們的關鍵基礎設施不管他是遭到哪一個國籍的人去進去裡面一整個晚上其實他就是一個關鍵基礎設施的重大漏洞"},{"start":5739.622,"end":5763.448,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說以這個事情為例我們在關鍵基礎設施上面要怎麼樣的去做一個國安局有怎麼樣的一個想法就是說我們做好保防的這個措施那盡量就避免不管是說先前的這個大家比較關注的五星旗的這個資安事件或者我覺得更嚴重的是它人直接就進到了這個這個發射機房裡面"},{"start":5767.149,"end":5784.623,"text":"裡面那可不可以請這個局長幫我們做一個說明委員說得沒有錯因為央廣不是一般的廣播公司它在國家緊急危難的時候是負責公眾傳播的所以是定位為關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的維護行政院有相關的跨部會的匯報"},{"start":5785.644,"end":5805.937,"text":"委員所提到的問題我們是成員 部委會報的成員我們會來做比較完整的反應大概有兩個重點一個部分是資安的部分剛剛也在跟馬文君委員做說明很多委外的這些資安公司它可能有一些涉入的背景這個部分可能要做一個比較完整的規範第二個是實體安全的部分"},{"start":5806.337,"end":5828.019,"text":"那公司被不明人士入侵的話那這個部分就代表可能在保安或是保全的維護措施是真的是有明顯的不足當然就關鍵基礎設施的防護在進入到國家比較特殊的狀態之下是會派遣相關的兵力來保護的但是委員在提醒的是在平常情況就應該要更關注這樣的"},{"start":5828.439,"end":5842.772,"text":"是啊 因為他在那個微波發射站機台機房裡面那如果今天這個人他代表這裡有重大的漏洞嘛他如果他今天真的有什麼樣的一個他去輸入發射或是他做任何的這個指示可能就會造成整個我們國家"},{"start":5844.173,"end":5872.57,"text":"的錯誤的這個消息來源所以說既然有一個外籍人士那就可以跑進去了代表這裡有漏洞那希望可以重新檢視這一些在陳平時期非戰時的關鍵基礎設施那有沒有一些實體上面的漏洞除了資安之外實體上的漏洞那重新的去檢查一次避免類似的情況發生因為就行政院的那個關鍵基礎設施的防護匯報的話我們來把委員剛剛的意見來做一個表達"},{"start":5873.11,"end":5876.072,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員 局長請回號接下來進行詢問的委員 謝榮介委員主席我請局長來 局長請"},{"start":5903.735,"end":5910.097,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員長今天我要用何樂威跟你講一個問題沒有問題 謝謝你的黨和局勢的報告看出老總統和我們這個蔡總統的角度不一樣看蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中去選舉突破"},{"start":5934.522,"end":5946.072,"text":"但是老總統他不斷想要聯合美國跟聯合日本來做一個對中國大陸的威力那這種各國當然會使兩方緊張的氣氛上升"},{"start":5956.88,"end":5972.768,"text":"所以在整個東亞的部分甚至擴大到全世界現在是局勢非常快速的在變動那麼你寫到日本的局勢看來好像對我們非常有用你完全是站在老總統的角度之下對安倍首相以後跟這個菅義偉首相"},{"start":5980.953,"end":6003.782,"text":"那麼到酒店到餐廳可以說這蓋安培這優牌完全是採取比較保守對於日本的利益為利益的可能美國人也是以美國的利益為利益那麼我們現在像你這樣不斷要去突破蓋美國結盟蓋日本結盟然後來對抗中國大陸現在看到國企收成起來他這多好"},{"start":6011.363,"end":6027.591,"text":"日本安倍的這個極右派的一個代表所以他就是馬卡 美國中央的偉大所以跟特朗普可以說是講得非常高興所以你這個報告 我想要請教你大總統這樣 聯合日本美國這種意圖對中華的和平發展有幫忙嗎"},{"start":6037.985,"end":6058.46,"text":"我大概跟委員說明跟報告一下因為大概我們國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據我們國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做一個相關的分析那因為以現在的美日安保的合作就像委員觀察的以昨天的峰會來看是非常的緊密他們也認為會進入一個性的"},{"start":6060.382,"end":6067.372,"text":"你認為國旗跟台灣部這麼密切 氣氛這麼好在日本的觀察家來看 有確認爲國旗首相的任期大概多久"},{"start":6074.298,"end":6096.272,"text":"對 以他這任任期大概就是兩年多啦因為他是階梯 兩年多這麼久以目前跟在野黨的一個合作的狀況來講那現在當然是日本維新會已經加入了聯合政府那為什麼公民黨會退出對 那公民黨他主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方所以才會讓高市重新來 所以這是一個水陸的結合啦"},{"start":6099.995,"end":6112.424,"text":"那麼登基 殊民黨的執政 當然我們是祝福殊民黨登基的能在那執政但是有必要把台灣的安危 專保 駕託地跟日本這種結盟 尤其看到國旗動山收雄馬總統是非常的高興啊 認為說他所認定 實施的日本又再回來"},{"start":6125.748,"end":6128.793,"text":"這樣我請教你,這個還要再進一步跟日本結盟來針對中國大陸,來做一個威力性的,五元就是軍事上的保守部"},{"start":6138.284,"end":6153.279,"text":"基本上我們對對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定台海的情勢但是台海的情勢的穩定你也不能夠寄望在中共的善意所以怎麼樣來加強跟國際有我們的合作那不是假蒙你的生意我剛才跟你說你就是要再進一步跟日本結盟所以你相信日本優秀就是台灣優秀的一定日本優秀這個言論"},{"start":6162.756,"end":6173.21,"text":"這個是高市首相他在召開第一次的內閣會議之後他就有提到這樣的一個說法你個人的評論就是說你個人的觀察台灣有受日本的挑釁嗎"},{"start":6178.11,"end":6188.564,"text":"這是高市目前的一個政策立場所以我剛在跟委員報告的是他當選了自民黨首校第一次的記者會他就提到台灣有事就是日本有事有年這個時候 劉傑勝先生來到我們本醫這個座談 他去告這個"},{"start":6194.676,"end":6209.427,"text":"基金會責任他明確表示他登記在日本首相勝負兵工作到日本國防軍事方位對他的觀察他說台灣有史日本派兵的可能性很快"},{"start":6210.748,"end":6222.484,"text":"你如何看待這個公法對啊 日本是一個多元的社會啦當然大家看安保議題有不同的角度那我剛剛跟委員報告的是我們從現在的安倍首相的政府的相關的政策立場來做評估的"},{"start":6227.543,"end":6250.333,"text":"那麼老總統準備要結合美日來對中國大陸進行威力這兩個參與性就到了因為我剛才跟委員說明第一部分我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定但是維持兩岸的穩定過程當中你不能夠只寄望在中國的善意而應該跟國際友盟不管在經濟安全或是在安保安全上能夠有更多的合作來確保區域的現狀開國啦 清朝請你拿去開啊武器都沒有來你現在還要聯合很多人來陷人厭"},{"start":6255.988,"end":6263.154,"text":"這樣說的一套做的一套啊我不會啦 強化國防我想這是全民的共識啊對啦 那你拿一開啊 武器沒進來現在還有現在從你的戰略的問題還要叫日本美國來跟我們道頂來跟中國大陸緩解這樣跟蔡總統"},{"start":6273.102,"end":6291.927,"text":"事實是不一樣啊 為什麼這兩個的參與性在哪裡不要 事實上還是有延續性啦主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定那同時加強有盟的合作我想台灣在這部分的政策立場都還是有它的延續性本身是強調蔡總統還可以在穩定中去選舉突破不然人家赤赤的啦 草莓人家幾天喔到幾天就白白跳"},{"start":6299.554,"end":6305.415,"text":"反省炒麵就用痛的感謝你不會我們的政策都是力求穩定喔謝謝接下來質詢的請王定宇委員好謝謝主席麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長"},{"start":6331.36,"end":6355.38,"text":"好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長 我在開始質詢之前我剛剛聽到兩個其實是來自中國謠言農場的謬論那也許因為台語你沒有辦法精準掌握第一個 台灣跟美日的同盟什麼時候去威脅中國過了對 沒有那是標準北京的說法台灣是被中國用軍事力量 外交力量 灰色力量威脅的國家"},{"start":6356.772,"end":6367.037,"text":"美國日本就是好鄰居或好朋友幫助我們叫做 deterrence 嚇阻那樣子的威脅怎麼說台美日合作去威脅中國這你當場沒有馬上"},{"start":6368.991,"end":6391.412,"text":"把它釐清清楚 我覺得對 我講很清楚啦就是說對於中國我們沒有挑釁的是維持一個穩健的政策我們從頭到尾沒有做錯事嘛我們接待國際友人我們做錯什麼事我們維持國家主權獨立讓2300萬人有自由的選擇權哪裡做錯了第二個 最近中國窯園農場在散播一個台灣付了200億美金什麼6000億軍事武器都沒有來這也是假的啊"},{"start":6392.213,"end":6419.515,"text":"我們軍事武器採購不是錢付在那裡等它來有點像蓋房子蓋到地基要付百分多少蓋到一樓要付百分多少要到那個節點才會付那樣的費用所以根本沒有200億美金的錢放在那裡而且很多的項目都已經依序開始交貨所以這個當然不是你的夜館但我覺得國防部跟國安單位對這樣子的謠言很有系統性的透過中國謠言農場"},{"start":6420.556,"end":6447.897,"text":"透過特定的媒體透過特定的協作者在散播所以連國會都聽到我覺得荒謬好 回到我要問的題目這個高市早苗這一次跟川普的見面對日本來講可以說是一個從他們民調就顯示出還有他們的股票市場看出來是一個正向的發展那本席比較著重的是以台灣為核心利益來看美日的議題"},{"start":6451.417,"end":6473.278,"text":"日本有三個它叫做Three Security Documents叫做安保三文件那安保三文件剛好高市早苗在宣布參選總裁選之前我剛好到他辦公室跟他聊了一個多小時他隔天就宣布要參選自民黨總裁他那時候也跟本席提到這三個安保文件"},{"start":6474.119,"end":6495.556,"text":"五年就要檢討一次那他們計畫在2026年就明年的開始先talk然後最後再進行修改那在安保三個文件裡面呢有一件事情在日方很多消息面有指出日本跟台灣在軍事產業也就軍備合作上"},{"start":6496.584,"end":6515.821,"text":"一直過去是坦白講我們不能說有也不能說沒有所以在這個三個安保文件裡面的修訂就國安局掌握的情資或相關的訊息有關台日美日台所謂的軍備合作的可能性會不會放在這三個文件裡面"},{"start":6516.818,"end":6532.433,"text":"對 它三個文件裡面當然有涉及到一些日本軍品出口管制相關的一個條文所以第一部分要看它的那個條文後續修改的因為它跟維新會結盟維新會在這方面的看法跟安倍跟高市的看法比較接近那過去"},{"start":6534.695,"end":6555.502,"text":"這個公民黨是比較中間偏左所以會因為他們叫做聯力就是他們簽約結盟所以會被那個所自走現在這個自走力量沒有了又穩定了多數所以就這一個部分國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息在日台的所謂的合作的項目裡面包含軍備的合作"},{"start":6556.284,"end":6584.361,"text":"第一部分是針對它的那個國安山文件的一個修改那對這問題怎麼處理因為日本是個法治國家他們會非常的重視要有條文法律的依據它才會變成是一個政策這大概是第一部分要說明的那第二部分是假如能夠有武器出口的話那它跟其他國家的合作可能還要經過一些評估是要針對哪些項目因為國防產業鏈的那個供應鏈它還是有一些基本的分工"},{"start":6584.801,"end":6600.335,"text":"那到時候可能還要再看日本在這方面的政策它有針對條文授權的哪些國家進行了解跟掌握各方面的討論好 這個是我覺得台灣在外交或國安方面對於尤其日本日本其實很照規矩它就是principle"},{"start":6601.036,"end":6623.434,"text":"然後呢在Document修訂完之後看有沒有落實到法律然後最後官僚體系才會動未必是政治人物就可以指揮的動他那個體系是很清楚所以安保三文件的修訂其實至關重要特別在軍事工業的合作方面對台灣來講是或者對區域穩定來講都是一個正向的發展方向另外"},{"start":6624.455,"end":6652.232,"text":"這一次高市他就任的時候就如同剛才局長有提到他就任特別把安倍所提的台日在安全議題上是息息相關轉成白話文就是有事大家都有事那他是一個安倍路線的強硬的遂行者所以他也提出了一個特別在川普這一次造訪那跟高市的態度坦白講與石破一比較那馬上看得出來看圖就知道了"},{"start":6653.112,"end":6668.602,"text":"那他提到了一個美歐日台的所謂的類似的安全的同盟那這一個準安全同盟美歐日台那國安局的評估跟你們掌握訊息是什麼"},{"start":6669.692,"end":6694.214,"text":"對 剛剛有其他委員在關切這個議題再次的跟委員做個說明這是高市的公開的一個宣示他也認為說要維護區域的現狀必須要理念相近的國家一起來採取具體的行動那才會包括美歐日台有一個準安全同盟這個準安全聯盟我們希望看到的現象是比方說各項的演習台灣過去並沒有辦法跟大家一起有合作的一個網絡變成個別或進階的"},{"start":6697.156,"end":6724.334,"text":"那這個安全網絡裡面包含了互相在安全議題上的進退同步嘛他有很多東西要討論所以就你們掌握訊息這一件事情目前他初步的想法到底是什麼對 他這只是一個政策的概念就理念相近國家要加強合作來維護區域的和平跟穩定那具體的做法還沒有提出來但基本上現在在談安全的概念是從一個比較綜合性安全的概念在討論"},{"start":6725.154,"end":6738.566,"text":"因為局長你是從外交體系來擔任國安局長我問一個比較簡單的問題高市所提到的美歐日台準安全同盟跟過去2018年當時的QUAD"},{"start":6742.216,"end":6763.597,"text":"會不會比較類似因為Quad也是從talk talk從開始談到最後慢慢強化逐漸把它level up所以就目前高市提出這個準安全同盟跟Quad類比起來你覺得差異大不大他只是還在一個政策概念之下要變成一個實際的政策可能還要有一個發展的過程那Quad因為已經"},{"start":6765.5,"end":6772.913,"text":"經過多年的一個運作不管在外交上 安保上都有Quad的相關因為Quad在2018年當時川普第一任是要把他"},{"start":6774.158,"end":6800.339,"text":"不要了啦然後呢幾乎也沒有再運作了是誰去海湖山莊呢跟川普說這個要弄的你應該也知道嘛安倍啊所以是安倍當時把QUAD從幾乎已經drop丟掉了又拿回來從對談強化到準安全同盟那所以我看到高視早描提到了這一個美歐日台有點像當年那個影子"},{"start":6801.279,"end":6825.26,"text":"我不曉得你個人就國安跟你外交體系背景怎麼看這個事沒有 尊重委員的一個觀察那我剛剛一直在說明的是這只是一個政策的概念那後續怎麼樣變成一個落實的政策委員剛剛有提到他可能還需要一些比較縝密的官僚相關部會的一個作業那到時候我們再來看後續發展的狀況是怎麼樣實際的狀況是怎麼樣好 最後一分鐘我今天沒有問完的我明天會繼續問"},{"start":6826.841,"end":6852.268,"text":"上一次我點出來我們相關被中共不管是公安統戰或他們的軍方點到了我們不管軍情局未來我相信也會有國安局軍情局或者我們新戰大隊或者是我們的資通電軍點名之後當然他法律不給予我們當然我們還有很多要跟有盟國家合作結果沒有想到就本席接到的兩個"},{"start":6854.423,"end":6874.871,"text":"我們相關機敏單位的人去兩家一家公營一家私營的銀行進行更名或者詢問貸款就被提到說你是高風險可能會準的機會不大當時我就是向你質詢的我現在是問你你們掌握到為什麼會發生這事情的原因了沒"},{"start":6875.803,"end":6887.74,"text":"有一些個別個人的因素不是個別我們有去了解原因是什麼有一些個別的因素因為其他相同身份我告訴你 局長不是個別因素資料庫"},{"start":6889.127,"end":6914.061,"text":"KYC所有的金融行戶受險他都要Know your customer叫做客戶查詢KYC結果我們台灣的銀行KYC還不到認真喔不到真信喔KYC都是委外買資料庫做輸入查詢結果你跟我講個別我很遺憾我認為你們沒有查你知道嗎"},{"start":6915.557,"end":6932.814,"text":"這個台銀土庫 易銀 張銀他們綁的就委外的資料庫叫做WorldCheckWorldCheck你進去一查我還找了銀行人員去輸入視察他們是跟中國的資料綁在一起"},{"start":6934.161,"end":6956.311,"text":"中國的資料喔 中國公安部 中國相關資料 中國媒體公布在裡面喔 一輸入之後它有分四類一個叫做國內外制裁名單第二類 金融監理機關列管名單第三類 現任或前任政治人物PEB我們都是現任或前任喔第四類 叫涉及負面新聞結果輸入work check"},{"start":6957.264,"end":6978.767,"text":"我們這幾個機敏資料的人就跑出來他屬於第四個 涉及負面新聞那你注意看像義營 華南 臺南 臺灣中小企業 兆豐金控他們去委外買的資料庫是道瓊的道瓊有一個欄位讓你勾你要不要跟中國的資料一併串你可以選擇不要那後面呢"},{"start":6979.864,"end":6992.457,"text":"有的應該會買兩個你像兆豐還買了LNRS FLES這個應該是LNRS Files然後另外還有張瑩還買了Patchit Officer"},{"start":6993.356,"end":7020.615,"text":"你們有沒有掌握這些資料庫裡面有沒有用中國國安部公安部統戰部相關資料在資料庫裡面你們有沒有掌握因為委員在關切這個問題啦那國防部事實上也有一個專案在處理那我們有透過那個專案去了解實際的狀況那有一些相關的因素我告訴你截至此時此刻銀行行員如果把某一些名字也許把你名字輸入也會或者這個什麼樣的名字輸入進去"},{"start":7021.943,"end":7039.365,"text":"在台銀的資料庫是會跑出來的會跑出警示跟委員說明一下國防部他有去了解那也有去透過其他的同仁去這個資料庫沒有問題這個資料庫裡面因為他把我告訴你台銀上面下令把他們移到白單了"},{"start":7040.779,"end":7058.964,"text":"才變沒問題了但你核心的資料庫沒有處理你現在只把這幾個名字移到白單一輸入跑出紅色然後看到旁邊白單他就自動沒問題你講的沒問題是這個我點破啦但如果這個資料庫用中國資料庫來審核我們台灣相關人員這個前提如果不處理還會賭到"},{"start":7060.489,"end":7087.387,"text":"你沒有從結構去處理問題我今天先問到這裡後續我明天再繼續問我知道委員開過很多協調會但是也可以了解一下政府去了解跟調查的結果那到時候大家再討論怎麼來處理好 謝謝局長好 謝謝接下來進行訊號委員 岳恩之委員"},{"start":7095.266,"end":7098.107,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局局長來 蔡局長好 葉委員長局長好因為明天川普跟習近平就要會面大家都很關心同時有很多媒體報導或國人也很擔心擔心特別是有一個詞叫做到底川習會會不會出賣台灣我覺得把這個事情講清楚大家就不至於擔心那我相信國安局也"},{"start":7123.915,"end":7140.035,"text":"應該也有很多套劇本有演練過很多不同的狀況我想問一下請問大家在講說會不會出賣台灣什麼何謂出賣台灣它有哪幾個程度的差別你們根據你們的分析我想這是新聞的用語那我們從政策的分析上來講"},{"start":7141.416,"end":7170.456,"text":"剛剛媒體朋友也有在會前提出一些問題我有做一些說明基本上看起來這次的川習會還是以經貿議題為主或許會帶到地緣政治因為川普他已經講了說台灣議題也是其中一個然後國務卿也對外公開說明說在會談當中不會去以台灣議題來換取中國的經貿優惠的措施政任部長也這樣講我現在要問的就是不會以放棄台灣或出賣台灣那定義到底是什麼"},{"start":7171.176,"end":7173.238,"text":"譬如說出賣台灣是說會直接講說反對台灣獨立還是說會在未來假設有戰爭的時候美國不會保護台灣還是說美國會減少賣防衛性武器給台灣 到底"},{"start":7188.272,"end":7209.417,"text":"國安局的評估所謂的出賣台灣的定義到底是什麼沒有 完全沒有出賣台灣是新聞的用語那你們的評估呢你們的評估可能會有哪幾種結果對 我們的政策面來了解是有可能會碰觸到台灣問題也有可能不會碰觸到台灣問題但假如碰觸到台灣問題的話美國官方的立場講得很清楚不會用台灣問題來換取中國相關的經貿優惠的措施"},{"start":7212.918,"end":7228.025,"text":"那不管是國務院或戰爭部都有類似的表述這樣講還是很抽象就是說不會用台灣問題那假設用台灣問題去換的話會是什麼狀況你總是要做一個各種評估嘛那如果會用台灣問題換的話是什麼狀況"},{"start":7230.265,"end":7258.46,"text":"我剛才跟媒體也做過說明了美中峰會他們討論的議題一定都有做過非常縝密的對啦 局長因為你這個都是很樂觀評估嘛以國安局狀況當然要料底從寬嘛你不可能說因為我覺得他不會我就不評估嘛我現在是問說你的評估因為大家會討論這個是個議題嘛然後會有好的狀況跟壞的狀況我們現在當然是希望是好的狀況可是如果是壞的狀況到底是什麼我就把這個東西講清楚大家就不至於擔心了嘛所以"},{"start":7259.841,"end":7280.092,"text":"所謂的出賣台灣或以台灣議題去換取經貿那台灣議題可以換到是怎麼樣犧牲台灣利益去換但美國的官方立場已經講到沒有這個議題不會用台灣議題來換取經貿已經沒有了沒有已經沒有這個所謂換取那個是盧比歐的講法但是川普有時候他那川普他也講說他非常尊重台灣"},{"start":7282.153,"end":7295.538,"text":"對 沒關係我當然也是希望是這樣結果啦但我覺得我們國安局都評估事情都很樂觀啦是用這種非常樂觀的態度去看待非常嚴肅的國安問題好 那第二個問題喔那個川普他見了黃仁勳嘛"},{"start":7297.319,"end":7319.955,"text":"之前黃文勳然後川普講說他會致力將關鍵晶片移到本土來製造因為我們都知道川普之前他曾經講過台灣都偷走了美國的晶片產業然後美國的商務部長也一直強調就是希望說晶片的生產可以五五產能一半一半就是任何一個晶片生產商他在國內的生產的量要跟他出口"},{"start":7320.836,"end":7348.986,"text":"海外客戶跟他進口的一半一半未來也會朝向這方向那我們就會擔心說那台灣的戲盾會不會因為這樣子就沒有了那我昨天看到卓文泰院長他講說不會 台灣不會有這些問題因為台灣在經濟 科技 區域和平穩定上面跟美國的共同利益都很大但問題是現在那假設之後我們的晶片就像川普建的黃仁勳所講的要希望把這些東西移過去的話那你們的評估是什麼"},{"start":7349.772,"end":7377.074,"text":"因為就那個經貿談判還是由行政院這邊在進行我知道 從國安的角度啦對 那委員剛所提到的關切事實上談判團隊也有對外做過說明第一個沒有所謂五五的這樣的提議在談判過程當中出現 第一個那第二個就算有的話我們政府也不會去接受這樣的立場所以我想談判團隊既然有這樣的說明我們就尊重他們的立場好 謝謝謝謝 葉元智委員請回 謝謝局長好 接下來詢答的委員是賴思寶委員"},{"start":7385.193,"end":7389.697,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安局的蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 那委員長你早 我先請教一下這個外面一直講而且這個經濟部長也某種程度也承認了我執行過他大概台美關稅20%加N的20加N的疊加"},{"start":7413.876,"end":7420.938,"text":"這個到現在為止一直是這個所以傳統產業非常辛苦啊你不要看股市每天創新高可是傳統產業苦哈哈的這個五星價的人越來越多那麼外界一直講說這個我們台美關稅要定案也就是說我們政府需要努力的20%降低不要疊加希望20%降到15%不要疊加這樣的一個想法跟做法那外界就一直認為"},{"start":7442.962,"end":7456.342,"text":"這個要等到川習會之後才他們定案了 我們才定案或者說中美貿易談判定案了以後台美關稅才會定案這個的消息你有沒有掌握"},{"start":7457.681,"end":7479.259,"text":"基本上因為國安局不是談判的團隊當然還是要以談判團隊對外說法為主我剛也是在用這種方式跟業委員做報告以我們的了解來講當然是希望在談判過程當中確保國家利益產業利益所以你沒有答案就對了你不能來確定另外就是以談到15%以下為主要的目標"},{"start":7480.8,"end":7487.363,"text":"所以你沒有掌握但是我掌握的就是這個樣子那現在來講就問那川喜什麼時候會APEC沒有談這個問題要等到明年初的農曆年他們才正式見面等於最壞的情況我們20加N要到那個時候才會改變的才有機會改變不過因為委員跟業界應該有很多接觸事實上在談判過程當中我們的團隊是一直有跟美方在討論"},{"start":7507.811,"end":7527.87,"text":"但是因為政治搞一切嘛好 第二個問題這個現在的新的日本的領導人就高市高市早苗他現在說要推動安倍的一致要修改日本的和平憲法這個你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":7528.71,"end":7532.212,"text":"對 他現在大概徐徐漸進的有沒有推動所謂的安保三文件在做調整那修憲的問題在整個總裁選舉以及他的內閣會議當中目前並不是一個議題現在主政黨跟那個維新他們就在推這個啊"},{"start":7549.168,"end":7571.542,"text":"這個來講 他們的國內也反對 國際也反對來又是軍國主義互庇喔這個台灣要有立場目前沒有在他們的政策議題上好 那他提到台灣有事 日本有事有沒有要出兵 有沒有這部分確實是在高市當選自民黨總裁的公開記者會他有提到台灣有事就是日本有事他有沒有講出兵"},{"start":7572.523,"end":7583.962,"text":"他主要的一個政策立場是在談那個態勢假如台灣發生怎麼樣的緊急事態的話會連動到日本的國家那請問你川普有沒有說過台灣有事美國有事"},{"start":7585.427,"end":7598.159,"text":"川普有沒有說過這個部分像委員講的主要是高市他在川普沒有說過這個話喔川普沒有說過這個話喔而且他現在越來態勢越來越明顯他不願意為國際的一個紛爭出兵喔這裡面好最後一點啦我想不過我報告一下因為我時間快到了我們主席對時間很嚴格自己可以拖很久別人不可以拖這個"},{"start":7611.091,"end":7634.564,"text":"來 我們看大陸對於所謂的台獨頑固分子他可以偵查 缺席審判 通緝更有人說這些人只要離開台灣就會被逮捕因為幾乎全世界都跟中國大陸有邦交跟我們有邦交就有十幾個國家其他都有所以只要一出國到他們有邦交都可以透過類似"},{"start":7635.965,"end":7646.381,"text":"美國透過加拿大為華為的事情去逮捕孟晚舟這樣的模式我就請問你這個事情這個事情"},{"start":7647.618,"end":7668.395,"text":"會不會發生對 剛剛林楚瑜委員也在關切那跟委員報告一下那基本上中共這種所謂的跨境脅迫它是沒有實際的意義的它是在做政策宣示那所以國內在討論的時候也不要落入它的這種法律戰心理戰跟輿論戰的架構之下而製造成一個心理恐慌的效果"},{"start":7669.416,"end":7683.193,"text":"也就是被他列為說他懲罰分子出國這樣出國不必擔心我剛剛也跟林委員在提醒說到了跟中共真的非常友好或是有司法互助的國家確實要小心我們要提高警覺中共跟美國有司法互助啊"},{"start":7684.094,"end":7707.722,"text":"那你去美國 基本上我們去美國沒有問題的啊不是啊 前提是在於親中的這種國家那比較全球南方國家那要注意有沒有哪些國家會配合到沒有 我要提醒是不管怎麼樣我們台灣人民 台灣人民代表要受到我們一定的保護我不知道我們國安局這裡有沒有具體的做法可以保護我們台灣所有的人民不要受到這樣的干擾"},{"start":7709.282,"end":7734.651,"text":"對 剛才跟其他委員在提到確實要注意到這種被威脅委員在國內境內的人身安全問題那會不會有在地協力者來侵犯他在國外的部分我剛才提醒在國內沒有問題 國外啦不要到了跟中共非常緊密友好政治關係緊密的國家那這種國家我們不建議全世界都跟老共有邦交民主理念國家還是最多數的謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7735.111,"end":7742.398,"text":"那明天好像 召委會 召會嘛好 謝謝 請回接下來進行詢答的委員 郭育晴委員好 謝謝主席 有請局長來 局長請"},{"start":7765.083,"end":7785.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席 郭文豪主長早安我想這個中國對台的施壓其實是不間斷的那最近更是越演越烈那中國官媒他之前也公佈了他們的這個衛星就是吉林一號那對台灣的不管是台北市區阿里山日月潭等等這個有非常清楚的一個"},{"start":7786.516,"end":7810.812,"text":"就是衛星的照片包含整個所有地面的一些細節我想他們的這個衛星看得很勤動作很勤也看得很密那幾乎隨時都可以取得這些影像那我想他已經把這個自家的這個衛星會不會有可能也是對於台灣的一些戰略的一個不管是縱橫這樣子的一個掌握那我想我們有沒有什麼樣的因應的一個方式"},{"start":7811.332,"end":7838.138,"text":"那我的問題是就是我們的情報蒐集跟驗證會不會跟不上他們對方的影像更新的一個速度我們要怎麼樣來減少這樣子的一個差距這是第一個問題那第二個問題是有沒有哪一些方法我們可以降低或者是我們來做這個對抗所謂的他們的高解析度的一個衛星所帶來的這些情搜的一些優勢那有沒有哪一些的技術或者是哪一些防防的措施我們是可以來做採取的"},{"start":7839.378,"end":7856.864,"text":"那第三個問題是這些影像透明化對於所謂的軍事的一個動機那跟他那個關鍵的設施的一個防護還有我們這個指揮的體系會不會造成哪一些具體的一個風險有沒有量化的一些評估我們有沒有在做這樣子的一個部分那進程又是什麼"},{"start":7857.424,"end":7871.669,"text":"那第四個就是國家地理的一個資訊的系統跟國土的這個測會的空間的資料庫如果將來是被害或者是呢有一些資料被滲透了那會不會也跟這些衛星相互有一些交互驗證之後加劇"},{"start":7873.529,"end":7898.363,"text":"資料外洩的一個問題 以上四個問題請教一下局長謝委員的提醒跟指教那第二部分是針對科技情報的蒐集那這是本局的主要的重點那事實上在過去兩年也針對我們局裡面的科技情報單位做了一個重新的組織改造那目的就是希望不管是在訊號情報或影像情報可以掌握得更精準那中共在蒐集我們的相關的偽造我們也在蒐集他們的而且我們的數量不會比他們少"},{"start":7898.683,"end":7924.563,"text":"那也是會針對中共相關的軍事動態軍事設施的部署那都會有完整的掌握來做分析這是第一個部分的報告那第二部分的報告是假如說它的衛照鎖定的是我們的重要的戰略或軍事的要塞的話那當然這一部分國防部他都有一些應處的作為包括怎麼樣來加強危險的措施讓它的衛照的拍攝清晰度不佳或是因為跟地形地物地貌的融入沒有辦法精準的來判斷相關設備的實際的狀況"},{"start":7927.085,"end":7944.69,"text":"那另外有一個蠻重要的做法是我們的相關的武器裝備也要更能夠機動化的來做調整跟部署那這樣子讓它的衛照永遠比較跟不上我們相關機動部署跟靈活運用的一個策略的一個運用這大概是另一個說明"},{"start":7945.53,"end":7966.54,"text":"那第三個部分是在整個委員擔心的未照再配合到相關資安的侵害中共也許可以做大數據的分析更掌握我們相關的一個狀況那這部分確實應該要來注意所以針對中共對我們的科技情報收集那可能的手法那以及我們怎麼樣來阻絕包括資安的部分怎麼樣來阻絕"},{"start":7967.62,"end":7996.067,"text":"那確實我們是列為一個重要的重點的工作那也有一些專案在處理但因為國安局主要的夜館會針對我們的情報11個機關來強化我們這方面的建制那後續怎麼樣把我們情報單位的做法再推廣到政府其他單位也能夠來注意到中共科技情報的運用不管是衛照電偵或是網駭來做大數據分析之後對我們國安的相關的情資掌握會更為細緻那這個部分我們再來加強"},{"start":7996.727,"end":8026.227,"text":"最後一個小問題就是說我們在這個所謂的反制的一個技術上面我們有沒有跟國際有一些配合那我們怎麼樣來合作然後讓國際來協助這樣子的一個管道有因為這個也是老師跟我們報告這是我們現在國際情報交流科技情報是主要的重點之一那衛照的部分除了傳統的光學衛星以外後續還有這種合成孔徑的衛星那這一部分都是比較新的技術那也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資進行科技情報交流的主要重點"},{"start":8026.767,"end":8044.776,"text":"好那最後就是剛剛回應一下這個我們賴志寶委員喔就是我們要加強這個委員的在外的人身的安全喔替沈博洋講一下話好這個我們要注意謝謝他謝謝他的關心啊好謝謝謝謝郭宇峻委員局長請回好接下來進行巡禮委員邱志威委員"},{"start":8055.314,"end":8071.455,"text":"謝謝主席有請局長蔡局長請謝謝主席 邱橫好對 局長你好 局長第一個問題請教你就是說這個中共四中全會剛落幕聽過第15次的五年經濟發展計畫"},{"start":8072.915,"end":8089.835,"text":"那這個有一些現象會讓人家覺得有點跟過去不一樣包括這個中央委員會出席的人數對這個特別是軍系軍方這個中央委員應該有三十幾席要出席就是出席二十幾席"},{"start":8091.016,"end":8109.044,"text":"那包括一些已經沒有在名單裡面的找不到原因的 未出席的大概還有二三十位還印出大概200多位吧如果沒記錯的話205位 那出席的是168位缺席的是37位所以有很多軍系的包括這些將領沒有出席"},{"start":8110.203,"end":8127.442,"text":"這透露什麼訊息習近平的大權還是牢牢在握呢還是岌岌可聞你們的判斷這一次有注意到中央委員的出席狀況就像跟委員報告的數字確實是比較低大概有18%的中央委員是沒有出席的"},{"start":8127.842,"end":8156.062,"text":"那代表有大規模的整肅跟調查的工作還在進行整肅是反貪嗎有 反貪跟忠誠的問題可能都有所以我們的解讀是認為他反映的是中國的貪腐還有忠誠問題可能蠻嚴重的他是在加大力道對 那也跟委員報告他這次中委員有遞補11位候補委員那11位候補委員那還沒有及時遞補啊有 這一次有遞補11位但是11位完全跳過了該遞補的軍方代表的名單那代表他對於軍方代表"},{"start":8156.943,"end":8164.486,"text":"所以現階段在整肅軍方貪腐的問題對 他在完成調查之前而且直接降臨的位階非常之高是啊當過這個軍委副書記對 或是軍區司令員軍區司令員"},{"start":8172.228,"end":8196.469,"text":"所以這種情況您覺得他習近平的大權還是牢牢在握對 我們剛剛跟陳俊宇委員在報告也是就是他現在幾乎是獨攬軍權啦然後對於一些將領的背景沒有那麼的信任所以除了剛剛說中央委員遞補名單沒有軍方代表以外中央軍委會也沒有遞補那過去委員可能也知道說現在還是軍權在握嘛對對 所以現在就世襲 對"},{"start":8199.713,"end":8227.852,"text":"所以這種情況透露出他的依然在權在握未來五年他的這個位置應該沒有問題因為在市中全會我每次在注意委員剛剛提醒的這件事他的一些公報的用語有沒有去提到接班或是續任的問題都沒有都沒有都沒有 對所以代表他大權在握科技的他怎麼自主在美中的科技角力戰裡面能夠維持他的獨立性跟自主性另外他國內消費不足的問題大概是提到這些部分沒錯他們是他們國內問題"},{"start":8229.953,"end":8247.243,"text":"那再把這個情況放到東亞東北亞經濟合作這個是一個命運共同體地緣政治 地緣經濟包括台灣 韓國跟日本這是一個區域的經濟安全合作的重要性"},{"start":8248.243,"end":8274.831,"text":"日本沒有問題台日關係最近是二三十年非常密切所以從安倍到高市首相我們提出他們都立場很清楚就是台灣有事 日本有事台灣沒事 日本沒事但我很期待我們另外一個台韓關係我們應該有更多的喉嚨我希望說在未來五年 十年我希望能夠從韓國這種聽到說這台灣有事 韓國有事"},{"start":8277.942,"end":8290.532,"text":"當然如果是美國說台灣有事 美國有事我想這個大概如果會講早就講了但是雙邊關係的互動是慢慢累積現在韓國反中的情緒非常強烈"},{"start":8291.903,"end":8315.515,"text":"對台灣是相當的友善他們124萬人來台灣觀光台灣有100萬全台灣觀光所以文化民間交流非常熱絡我們應該把握這個時間點強化跟韓國的關係局長您看法呢因為韓國以前都關注北韓的威脅對區域安全議題比較不表述他的立場但是這幾年也正如委員所看到的他慢慢的在調整"},{"start":8316.155,"end":8333.129,"text":"包括在美日的一些峰會或是部長級的會談都會 韓國會開始提到台海和平穩定的問題所以代表他的政策是有開始在做一些調整最後十秒鐘就是說上次您提醒我我不能去香港香港"},{"start":8334.29,"end":8356.716,"text":"甚至轉機也不行這個我都不能到香港但入境不可能 他不可能讓我入境轉機也有危險能不能有一些正面表列的國家你看他的第三國受到中國他們的國內的政治經濟受到中國強烈的控制強大的控制力的這些國家有沒有可能正面表列"},{"start":8358.945,"end":8382.94,"text":"對 但這個部分可能旅遊的風險的部分主要是外交部的夜館那但是這部分的風險主要是針對一些疫病或天災的那個指標來做調整那委員提到的是政治風險那這部分我們看是不是在內部會議再提醒外交部也來注意一下委員剛剛的關切謝謝邱志偉委員如果負面表列比較少就用負面表列就好了跟他友好會引渡的"},{"start":8385.202,"end":8408.721,"text":"對 那Interpol國際刑警組織那邊可能也是一個問題好 那謝謝國安局長 請回接下來進行詢問委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員不在鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":8411.465,"end":8428.437,"text":"以登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員 沈伯陽委員林益君委員 陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報那本期這邊也向我們委員會宣告"},{"start":8429.178,"end":8447.7,"text":"明天我們會甄列一個專案報明天是雙莊報除了外交部就這次APEC進行報告那在外交部長等於是國家的發言人代表我們外交立場如果明天如果有川習會的話那在會後我們會另外給時間讓"},{"start":8449.322,"end":8463.093,"text":"部長在我們外交委員會表達我們國家的立場跟看法第二個專報我們甄列一個有關中國對台灣進行長臂管轄以及威脅的樣態以及我們在法律及行政部門應當進行應處"},{"start":8465.014,"end":8493.895,"text":"這也是今天本委員會多位委員還有非本委員會委員都關心的議題那這是突發的議題所以本席根據我們立法院相關的規範這個緊急事態的話得臨時增加相關的專報所以明天我們會有兩個專報明天包含國安局法務部調查局陸委會我們都會要求再列席所以民政局長早上的話可能要再辛苦一下好 我們今天的"},{"start":8494.876,"end":8509.547,"text":"這一個委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請國安局已書面於兩週內答覆那另有約定期限者從期鎖定本次會議到此結束我們散會大家辛苦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16985","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685021bb07685947ff6fe850adc8d4db2eb0aa126c40303dc27829485c9abe6bdfb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-29T08:32:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T17:30:00+08:00","duration":32244,"影片長度":"08:57:24","委員發言時間":"08:32:36 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交通部次長經濟部商業發展署副署長劉雅娟及數位發展部數位產業署副署長黃雅平及各相關主管等即席答覆"},{"start":1760.743,"end":1785.16,"text":"委員盧憲一、張志倫、林佩祥及圖權及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三、外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案等六案另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1789.325,"end":1811.526,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處那議事錄確定那本日議程為邀請環境部部長衛生福利部農業部經濟部教育部國防部就防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散強化全國出於去化問題以及後續防疫"},{"start":1812.247,"end":1830.527,"text":"清消等作為提出專題報告並被質詢專題報告結束尋答結束後繼續審查行政院行情審議黨團委員分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案G21案以及審查委員"},{"start":1831.212,"end":1853.511,"text":"分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案即時案現場現在介紹現在場委員及列席官員首先我們的陳昭之委員王振旭委員環境部部長彭啟明部長"},{"start":1855.58,"end":1879.616,"text":"常務次長沈志修次長環境管理署副署長林左翔環境資源署副署長林建山水質保護師副師長儲文帝疾病管制署急性傳染病組組長楊靖惠"},{"start":1885.057,"end":1910.255,"text":"抱歉還有一個副署長王德元農業部部長陳俊濟動植物防疫檢疫署主任秘書陳子偉畜牧師師長李怡謙畜產事業所所長黃正芳"},{"start":1913.077,"end":1934.231,"text":"獸醫研究所所長鄧明忠經濟部商業發展署組長蔡群毅產業發展署組長吳振華台灣糖業股份有限公司執行長溫元文債務國民及錢錢教育署組長邱禪"},{"start":1939.261,"end":1949.606,"text":"國防部後勤參謀次長是助理次長林鄭中接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":1957.536,"end":1981.043,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有我們農業部還有衛福部還有本部的各位的同仁有代表環境部來報告環境部因應非洲豬瘟的廚藥的去化的專案報告那我們主要是針對目前廚藥的處理然後清運然後到最後未來的珍珠還有我們未來的規劃進行跟大家說明首先我們目前根據環境部登記的資料大概有435個廠"},{"start":1982.663,"end":1995.991,"text":"其中有一個廠已經停職營業那435場裡面呢是餵養了47萬頭的一個豬廚育當成這個飼料在做使用那目前呢我國的這個國人每天的這個廚育的總量呢一天大概是2115萬"},{"start":2000.055,"end":2011.653,"text":"2115噸那一年大概是77萬噸那當中家戶廚藝大概是1384噸每天產出然後如果從事業就包含了餐廳或是團散等等的大概是731噸"},{"start":2013.375,"end":2026.387,"text":"其中我們家戶的廚餘大概有42.8%是到飼料化的一個程序裡面我們事業廚餘大多數都是到飼料化進行處理所以目前我們的所有的廚藝的總量大概是62.6%是到飼料化來餵豬來做處理"},{"start":2030.771,"end":2058.545,"text":"那這個當中就要用高溫烹煮能夠才能夠去進行做飼料那其他的部分包括能源化肥料化或是其他都是本部在協助在處理的那其中目前生殖能廠大概有台中跟桃園各有一個那這當中就可以來進行這個能源化或是說未來的找一找渣的一個澆灌的工作那目前本部也積極在過去這幾年也協助了建置了高效能堆肥的設施然後來進行堆肥廠"},{"start":2059.865,"end":2076.611,"text":"這個已經有一些成品有一些好的案例出現了那另外一個未來要做的就是黑水芒這個其實是相當的未來很有潛力的事項因為那個蟲蟲把這個吃掉之後蟲蟲還可以再做多餘的多元的一個再利用所以這個是目前我們國內的廚藝的產出跟企劃的流向"},{"start":2078.172,"end":2101.287,"text":"但是呢因為這次的這個非洲豬瘟我們無法來餵豬了所以基本上我們算出來我們現在盤點本部的可以掌握的廚餘的量能的設施是1620噸那跟的總量相比我們大概一天大概有495段的一個缺口所以目前的這個如這樣所是的確是有一個去化上的困難那未來要怎麼走呢"},{"start":2101.707,"end":2118.372,"text":"我們短時間現在因為這個疫情的期間這15天當中我們是以不改變民眾生活的習慣最主要的一個目標那還是由這個清潔隊或是養豬的業者協助來清運但是他必須送到指定的一個業者各個環保局指定的業者"},{"start":2118.772,"end":2143.454,"text":"那短期呢我們還是希望以肥料化、能源化為處理長期的話希望能夠有更好的一個永續發展的一個措施這個我們正在規劃當中那目前呢因為10月22號開始我接到陳部長的電話我們很快的就跟各縣市的環保局就召開應變會議首先呢第一個還是要源頭減量也就是說煮多少吃多少然後外出的時候吃多少點多少而且要瀝水減低這個廚餘的量"},{"start":2144.895,"end":2172.712,"text":"第二個呢去化的原則我們還是以肥料化生殖化再利用還有黑水芒為主如果沒有辦法的話才是焚化掩埋來做處理那目前呢我們也經過一個公告的一個措施包含了我們公告的這個恢復清雲的措施等等而且呢也感謝農業部來補貼清雲業者有一些油脂的措施讓民眾感受到不要變化太大同時呢各個縣市呢也有完成指定的一個所謂的去化的一個場所"},{"start":2173.152,"end":2194.239,"text":"那目前呢這個廚藝的接收在過去這幾天這一個多禮拜是完全的沒有問題的那有108處的地方包含了這個這幾個廠那目前呢我們有兩個作業因為這個國人最關心的是說如果進入這個掩埋廠去處理要怎麼去處理基本上我們有一個10乘10可以0.5公尺也就是說他一定要每日復土"},{"start":2194.679,"end":2210.069,"text":"不然的話會被蟲或是流浪犬等等所吃掉所以這個部分我們其實都有一個嚴密的規定那部分有些縣市他沒有照這個規定也經過我們稽查之後暫停使用甚至說用一個更好的方式來做處理"},{"start":2210.689,"end":2238.247,"text":"那如果要進行堆肥的話也有一定的規定所以掩埋場裡面不能去做堆肥所以這個部分呢我們有一定的明確的一個規範在一開始的時候就跟各縣市環保局來做溝通那未來呢我們最重要的是確定這個廚藝的應變 清運的處理順暢所以本部呢在10月23就有頒布這個指引希望說不要到這個養豬場裡面所以目前呢這個都有經過每天的這個監控協調各個縣市環保局就一起來努力來合作"},{"start":2238.767,"end":2262.967,"text":"那另外一個呢 國人最關心的廚藥的申報系統目前呢 我們的稽查計畫呢過去從108年開始就有那我們從108年開始就建置這個系統那這個系統呢 是整個養豬場必須每天用溫度計量 然後拍照 然後上傳那上傳之後呢 我們本部有一套系統就可以及時來監督主席我們再多一分半到兩分鐘那目前呢 我們這個申註系統呢根據我們"},{"start":2264.328,"end":2285.128,"text":"過去的這個經營的情形的確我們的系統裡面是可以比對他那個照片拍如果是他以前拍的在上傳我們都可以抓得到出他拍攝的一個時間那我們每天都會看到這樣的一個清單縱使說他今天沒有烹煮也都必須去回傳所以這個部分已經有執行的一段時間也有一定的一個成效"},{"start":2286.249,"end":2308.959,"text":"但是呢其實還是有一些廠商他相對的比較弱勢比較沒有去好好的去做處理像這次發生這個恰新的畜牧場他的確在7月的時候在本部就有發現到他是屬於被我們關注到的主要關注到的一個廠商他就有申報一次我們也去函各縣市環保局要求他們要加強清查的頻率隔月就要再去集合"},{"start":2310.78,"end":2331.648,"text":"8月也一樣他沒有他是排名第一個也是沒有去申報所以我們也一樣同樣去發函給各縣市環保局要求他們來去做處理那當然啦這個像中區的話大概八十幾家的這個畜牧場他們同時都有一定的規範例如說平均的話兩個月或是如果說他沒有按照這樣的話每個月都要去稽查"},{"start":2332.228,"end":2359.327,"text":"那我们统计了过去一年养猪场的征组的这个上传的申报率大概呢有申报率如果每天传就九成以上大概有占了82.3%的确有一些大概6.2%是低于60%那这个里面呢有些是这个厨艺厂要转型或是没有在营业或是说如这次的这个恰新它的管理可能不是非常的好所以相对的就会比较低这个呢资料我们会作为未来可以改进的一个方向"},{"start":2359.787,"end":2383.264,"text":"那我们精进的管理措施呢第一个是我们希望未来要加强稽查的一个频率如果还要处于在这个当成饲料的话第二个呢我们也目前在演绎当中也准备好了全面加装温度的探针还有监视器我们可以远端的透过AI的方式能够来监控哪里有问题而不是说按照目前的手动的方式来做处理那未来呢我们要如何进行去化呢"},{"start":2383.664,"end":2398.198,"text":"我们认为其实源头减量才是最重要的所以第一个呢要加强食农的教育 洗食的运动因为洗食运动是本部跟农业部一起合作来推动的我们希望这个可以加大能够源头减量这是最重要的第二个呢"},{"start":2398.918,"end":2417.737,"text":"廚育的徵阻一定要全面更科學化我們希望用到更好的一個即時的偵測用AI來輔助能夠來馬上知道說誰沒有按照規定來徵阻另外一個我們目前也跟農業部積極在合作當中我們正在評估各國的先進的技術引入台灣我們也鼓勵民間產業的發展"},{"start":2418.678,"end":2436.496,"text":"最後呢我們這些廚藝的去化還是把它當成這個循環經濟來處理因為廚藝的去化其實也涉及到各行各業他每天的產出跟去化的一個過程中我們希望用循環經濟的觀念能夠來創造資源化的價值以上報告 謝謝接下來我們請農業部的陳部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2448.638,"end":2469.194,"text":"主席 各位委員今天奉邀大院第11屆第4會及社會福利及環境衛生委員會來報告有關於防患非洲豬瘟疫情擴散強化全國除疫去化問題以及後續防疫清消等作為那以下我用簡報跟各位簡單的一個說明"},{"start":2471.158,"end":2491.198,"text":"我們在二十一號開始啟動非洲豬村的一個緊急的應變作為大概分為兩個階段那第一階段的五天我們最主要的目的是透過快速的這個全國性的整個豬場的查訪去確認說這樣子的一個這個發育點除了台中以外在其他縣市是不是有發生"},{"start":2491.778,"end":2507.177,"text":"那經過第一輪的五天我們可以很清楚的看到在台中市的部分除了這個案例確認點以外那它有相關的市市場的關聯場那這市市場關聯場幾乎都目前為止是是沒有特別的異樣"},{"start":2508.078,"end":2524.611,"text":"那在全國的部分針對五千四百四十一場的一個畜牧場八家的化資場五十五家的土宅場還有相關的運輸車輛我們也做相關的一個消毒必要的時候我們也做PCR的一個檢測那到目前為止所有的檢測都是陰性"},{"start":2525.191,"end":2548.091,"text":"那透過第一次的這樣的一個疫調那看起來這個整個的疫情是所在這個第一個案例並沒有對外擴散的一個跡象但是我們絕對不能掉以前行因為現在目前的疫調可還有一些必須釐清的部分特別在疫調裡面有一些追蹤那我們希望說透過更精準的疫調去了解這個案場"},{"start":2549.532,"end":2571.374,"text":"他有可能關聯的這些場域那我也對這關聯的場域能夠做仔細的去查訪的時候才能夠去遏止病毒的可能擴散所以說我們在第二階段後續五天的一個防疫作為大概分為上個部分就是豬場 肉品市場跟屠宰場然後以及到"},{"start":2572.836,"end":2598.429,"text":"或市場那整個第二階段的防疫我們有一個相當的幾個精進作為我們大概用了四個策略包括分級查訪強化消毒精準疫調跟擴大追查那從這個圖你可以看得到我們在全國各縣市有一個統一的作為不管是在豬隻的畜牧場或者屠宰場肉餅市場以及人車的部分因為現在我們禁運禁載所以豬是不動的"},{"start":2598.869,"end":2624.756,"text":"那可能的傳播鏈可能就是來自於車輛的部分或是人員的部分所以我們會針對這個部分更有效的去做分級的一個查訪那第二個部分還是鎖在台東市因為台東市現在是案例場的發生地所以我們除了這個案場本身的再次深入的去做檢視以外那也會再追蹤下一層的一個關聯場我們希望說透過這樣的一個檢視能夠有比較好的一個"},{"start":2625.936,"end":2645.246,"text":"一個結果也讓我們目標是清零我們再度清零這是我們很明確的一個目標那不管在肉品市場我們把相關的指引都已經給了地方政府然後部分的這些指引我們也提供給豬農我們希望說豬農能夠趁這個機會落實他的生活安全的一個防範"},{"start":2646.246,"end":2663.632,"text":"那同樣的就是為了讓可疑的這些病例能夠儘早的被確認所以我們最主要是針對非洲豬瘟提供了一個通報獎勵你只要早就發現這些可疑案例的時候經過經過地方政府的一些環保人員如果去採樣的話我們就會"},{"start":2664.972,"end":2690.17,"text":"提供五千塊的一個獎勵那邊境的防範作為還是持續要做不能說因為我們有案例而不做所以整個邊境的強化作為我們也是跨部會的不管從旅客的一個茶宴郵包快遞還有網路電商的部分我們都會持續透過跨部會的一個合作持續進行相關的一個作為然後並同時針對病毒的監測跟它的風險評估去處理"},{"start":2692.233,"end":2700.679,"text":"很重要的是在這樣的一個前提之下在這個禁運的前提之下對於整個豬隻的這個產業鏈會受到不同程度的一個衝擊所以"},{"start":2703.672,"end":2728.673,"text":"肉品特別在消費端的時候的肉品因為現在沒有新鮮的生鮮豬肉上市但是我們媒合了現在目前所有的庫存的國產豬肉大概可以滿足我們國內一個月的銷售然後我們也建立了一個平台讓這個豬肉需要這些豬肉的這些商家這個不提供給消費者一般買賣就是一些商家的部分我們會透過媒合那相關的媒合如果有需要的話農業部也會來進行來協調"},{"start":2731.26,"end":2757.32,"text":"那更重要的是整個產業鏈會受到影響那越南在第一時間也只是在這個疫情的調查的過程中我們也要去研議因為這樣子的經營建載跟這樣子的廚餘養豬我們要提供相當的補助跟補償的一個還有輔導的作為所以我們在一級生產鏈的產業輔導我們會在一個禮拜那從現在算起大概在這個這一週我想我們會盡快來宣布那以上報告"},{"start":2759.413,"end":2780.77,"text":"好謝謝陳部長那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告那本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":2781.494,"end":2789.237,"text":"暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智發言謝謝主席有請農業部部長陳部長那有請陳部長"},{"start":2804.613,"end":2829.207,"text":"部長根據農業部的統計數字你看上面的數字2018年我們為了防範非洲豬瘟病毒進入台灣所以啟動了邊境的查驗到6天前大概的數字是這樣已經查到9511件的違規品但是很重要的其中有997件是測出豬瘟是陽性的這個百分比是10.5%"},{"start":2830.848,"end":2834.772,"text":"就是超過一成是帶有這個豬瘟病毒請問陳部長你認為這個比例高嗎"},{"start":2837.284,"end":2861.721,"text":"我第一個要說明這個數據的來源我們相關的這個違規的部分就是說我們在邊境的時候有勸導如果他帶有一些肉製品的話他要棄置到垃圾桶不是說他夾帶以後我們抽驗到的所以我們這個數據可以顯示說國外的這些肉製品他帶有的非多豬瘟陽性特別是高風險區大概有10%部長您再說明那個類似"},{"start":2864.462,"end":2881.375,"text":"這個抽菸的母數啦但是豬瘟陽性的還是這個不管你要什麼對就是說從高風險區來的這些豬肉製品的確他呈現非洲豬瘟陽性的比例比較高謝謝部長說明但是我要強調就是說我覺得這個數字是高的"},{"start":2881.955,"end":2905.522,"text":"因為每天從中國或是東南亞的疫區疫區進來的貨物包裹數量非常龐大當然不可能密不通風這個我理解所以部長還是有可能有漏網之肉進入台灣那也有可能其中就不管多少比例它是帶有豬瘟的病毒那如果吃到人體內沒有吃完還是可能進入廚餘系統我這樣子推論OK嗎"},{"start":2907.799,"end":2933.107,"text":"有這個可能 對 會進來嘛然後吃下去 吃不完就變成廚餘那我麻煩那個彭部長您一起上台 謝謝你那廚餘系統的運作雖然是由地方的這個清潔隊來分配到各個案場養豬場但是最近我看到新湖市一直在追蹤這廚餘來源可是廚餘來源跟這個疫情的起因其實關聯性還有待討論所以這個重點是說請問清潔隊有足夠的這個技術跟設備去辨識說廚餘內可不可能有"},{"start":2937.909,"end":2938.873,"text":"非洲豬瘟的病毒嗎"},{"start":2939.834,"end":2954.541,"text":"他不可能我要跟委員說明這個必須要去強調廚餘本身它可能含有不同的一些包括危險包括病毒的部分但是我們進到廚餘養豬一定要落實徵主這個一定要強調我們講重點就不是在清潔分配或是廚餘來源就是在高溫徵主這個是重點那麼既然高溫徵主的條件是決定感染力的關鍵那我現在請教兩位部長"},{"start":2968.427,"end":2972.712,"text":"那為什麼全台灣共同爭主的場合目前只有一家"},{"start":2973.922,"end":2998.838,"text":"共同徵組一家在苗栗為什麼只有一家呢我要跟委員報告這是兩件事情就是目前有434家的廚餘養豬的這些廠它這些廠大部分都是自己徵組大部分都自己徵組那有一些希望說能夠共同徵組現在總共有四個縣市九個案子在申請共同徵組那現在營運的就是苗栗縣的一家"},{"start":3000.018,"end":3025.854,"text":"謝謝部長的說明等一下我們稍微討論一下因為你如果讓他各自為政各自去做那你又要集合又有這個上傳不完整那這些都很耗費的人士那如果是共同爭主有一個做法也許是更有效率的但是對於我再提到就是說對於要不要禁止廚餘剛剛陳鵬部長有稍微報告一下未來的可能做法但是中央跟地方現在目前好像看法不一樣"},{"start":3026.895,"end":3040.731,"text":"所以中央要有責任來做解決嘛到底是要落實這個廚餘的爭取的步驟呢還是說未來想要禁止廚餘呢這個方向剛剛彭部長簡單講了一下那有更清楚的方向嗎我想"},{"start":3043.055,"end":3070.479,"text":"厨艺本身以农业部过去对于厨艺养猪的立场我们都是一致的我们就是持续的辅导这些厨艺养猪场能够转为飼料这是我们的一直以来的立场从过去大概107 108年的2000多场到现在434场就是说部长不反对就是使用厨艺啦对但是厨艺本身我一直强调厨艺本身你如果落实它的一个增足是我们了解它就是一个很好的一个料源"},{"start":3071.299,"end":3095.995,"text":"對 要飼料化的一個過程非常重要那我再請教 當然剛剛已經報告了就是台中市政府這次這個相關單位有點施責的問題我想我們目前不能說台中市總有施責或沒施責我們的疫調本身最重要的是追查我們的來源疫調的過程裡面最後疫調報告出來才會去看有哪一些破口那個是後續的責任"},{"start":3097.176,"end":3114.035,"text":"我再請問彭部長那過去沒有確實上傳的你有沒有罰則 到底有沒有因為有一次在爭論包委員是有的 他會違反廢棄法好 那我現在重點就是說那過去 未來當然一定會加緊這個加長這個集合或甚至罰則那已經過去了就算了嗎"},{"start":3114.998,"end":3135.473,"text":"包委員他其實就會再追溯去處罰嗎重點是在集合因為如果集合的話那個養豬的珍珠場的這個他就會積極去處理所以目前的重點是在這個集合讓他們都知道這是有罰則的那陳部長25日你接受採訪的時候表達廚藝是共同珍珠是環境部跟農業部共同負擔"},{"start":3136.073,"end":3156.549,"text":"因為現在這個就是責任權責就是稍微要釐清一下但是我們也有看到這個環管署副署長對於權責劃分有不太一樣的說法當然他是把責任攬到自己身上他認為設立共同徵主的這個場是農業部的責任所以到底徵主場的設立是農業部還是環境部的責任呢"},{"start":3157.169,"end":3183.249,"text":"我想一個珍珠廠它要興建第一個它的用地要取得要合法那用地的合法就是農業部的部分然後它本身的一些興辦事業因為它要用來做廚餘養豬的時候那興辦事業我們會經過農業部的審視是不是有這個必要那至於說後面的相關興建以後的這些環境衛生的污染是不是有防範"},{"start":3184.67,"end":3196.674,"text":"那廚餘的處理就是你要接手環境部要接手就是我們的廚餘處理的再利用這個接手的問題這個就是很我想我們跟環境部我覺得我們的分工跟合作是絕對是沒問題的沒有說這是誰的部位"},{"start":3200.496,"end":3218.752,"text":"113年度的資料就是全台灣大概有42.8的加護魚儲剛剛你也報告相當高的數字仰賴飼料化來消化掉這是很大宗的處理方式那如果環境部有信心讓其他的去化管道剛剛你也稍微提了一下來消化大量的廚餘那麼中央就可以有更彈性的做法"},{"start":3219.733,"end":3246.61,"text":"那目前台灣是大概還沒有辦法完全不用廚餘來養豬啦那偏偏這次在廚餘的徵主系統當中這個徵主又是最重要的關鍵所以最重要的是你們的政策未來到底要繼續目前就使用廚餘然後加強集合然後等等還是說未來是往使用非廚餘不使用廚餘的方向走呢就是我可不可以先知道你們的規劃的方向我想我剛才講得非常清楚我們現在政策"},{"start":3248.342,"end":3265.439,"text":"我們一直持續輔導厨藝養豬場轉型然後因為在這個階段防疫是最優先的但是在防疫的過程中我們也看到了一些問題所以這些問題我們會滾動的檢討會在這個疫情比較能夠確認告一段落以後"},{"start":3266.219,"end":3277.868,"text":"我想我們持續的在我們啟動這些事情以後其實7年了除於政策轉型還是說共同爭主的建設期其實都7年了我們從2000多場降到434場那我們剛剛也討論了共同爭主的有一些優點"},{"start":3283.992,"end":3311.243,"text":"然後再做分配然後你不要各個去讓他們各自為政最後我要請教一個非常重要的問題昨天的記者會那個疫情指揮中心的疫情會指出有一個化智三聯單數字是有異常的就是三聯單本來是同時開出的那請問甲聯跟丙聯的數字他說不一樣請問這個數字差了什麼呢因為甲聯是由司機來說乙聯也是由司機來說但司機是把他送到這個化智廠"},{"start":3313.564,"end":3329.471,"text":"乙聯最後是會留在最後的官方的數字丙聯就留在豬農這邊三個數字不一樣是很嚴重的事情請問甲跟丙差多少乙聯到底是跟甲一樣還是跟丙不一樣還是三個都不一樣"},{"start":3330.571,"end":3350.884,"text":"這個很嚴重的事情我覺得委員說得非常正確三年單是要一致的但是我們發現說三年單的數字不一致三年單裡面分給豬農給化製廠還有給司機以後轉交給可能地方政府最後是官方數字的依據對 這三個不一樣的時候就應該去釐清我可以知道部長哪一個現在比較像嗎"},{"start":3352.405,"end":3367.882,"text":"給官方的東西乙聯到底現在是跟甲比較像我現在因為在整個議調有不同的單據那不同單據有不同的樣態所以這個部分我們都會更清楚的理清這個很關鍵 這涉及這個我了解 我想我們議調有後面的專家會議在討論那有一些"},{"start":3371.486,"end":3399.1,"text":"像您刚才说的这个就必须厘清因为这牵涉到死亡的支数那死亡支数是不是有流向所以这个是一个非常严肃的一个问题非常严肃的问题所以昨天这个指挥中心有报出来所以这个以莲还有在做以莲听说啦所以市基有做一些修改修改不是恶意的而是说他可能有增加一些租资的数目这个不可能说不可能用手改嘛不可能说他写错改的因为三年单本身要一致性"},{"start":3399.52,"end":3426.533,"text":"可是現在就說不一致所以我說我們在這疫調的一些疑點我們必須要再去釐清那請部長這邊就是趕快去我們絕對 我們非常關注這個疫情本身的疫調的一些資訊三年單的真相非常重要了解 我知道那我們就等待這個資料出來非常謝謝 謝謝委員的關心謝謝兩位部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 請回接下來請林月琴委員來做宣導"},{"start":3432.999,"end":3457.188,"text":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長來 請彭部長李委員好部長好 我先問台中擺爛中央到底要怎麼補為什麼我們的豬農廚餘真主的紀錄中段數個月都沒有上傳而中央說地方事實上是稽查不力結果台中市長盧秀燕反擊中央說"},{"start":3458.989,"end":3486.067,"text":"養豬場不上傳沒有罰則也沒有管制工具結果台中市因此放縱業者兩個月裝作沒看見讓豬瘟有更多機會入侵擴散市長說要修法才能管理部長你認同嗎但根據我們的環管署回覆說現行法規早就有明確的一個罰則了家戶除於違規最高可以罰六千事業除於可罰到三百萬所以請部長說明一下台中市依據這幾項"},{"start":3487.788,"end":3494.499,"text":"法規的法則是否就是可以構成可以對養豬場管理跟裁罰的一個要件"},{"start":3495.456,"end":3524.678,"text":"报告委员这个如果没有上传然后经过集合之后他没有处理好就是会依照委员提到的这样的罚则例如说是吗所以他事实上是可以是可以的绝对是可以的那看起来是卢市长似乎不是不清楚要如何运用吗我觉得他可能曲解因为这个重点是在这个稽查集合就是说他如果没有按时每天的去做申报我们这边就有一个清单我们就会给地方方法单位你隔个月一定要去清查那目前来看的话这个部分似乎是漏掉了"},{"start":3525.339,"end":3545.502,"text":"對 部長所以我們要的不是推責任而是安全網因為地方擺爛的時候受害的還是全國的一個民眾所以請部長具體說明中央要怎麼樣去確保地方不再擺爛以及下一次類似的事情發生的時候那大政府如何去能夠捕捕啊"},{"start":3545.762,"end":3572.078,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實這個部分我們環境部也好好檢討了這個案例那我們未來是希望說我們可以有一個即時監控的方式不用那麼多的人力去做這個事情我也坦承說這個要上傳也需要人力它有沒有可能會虛假或是填報不實這個也要考慮的所以未來我們現在正在規劃說以後就是即時監控監控這個真主的溫度還有一個就是CCTV直接看"},{"start":3572.478,"end":3586.007,"text":"所以這個我們已經有過經驗了我們希望未來如果還要有這個徵阻的制度的話就要朝這方面來監控好 部長剛才新聞才跑出來有專家在詢問如果地方以露天方式暫制廚餘"},{"start":3587.728,"end":3608.279,"text":"那在野豬活動或潛在棲地像台中現在幾個這個選址的周邊環境部是否已進行跨部會風險評估並提供處理指引會不會因此擴散報告委員我們在這個10月22號我接到農業部陳部長的電話一開始疫情發生第一個時刻他打電話給我"},{"start":3609.079,"end":3635.159,"text":"我就啟動我們環管署召集各個縣市環保局所以我們一天內就提出了這個掩埋或是堆肥的一個指引那這個指引裡面說得很清楚這個掩埋有掩埋的規定要每天覆土絕對不能夠這個露天也露在外每天一定要覆土因為我們就是要避免各種的這個昆蟲或是動物跑去吃這個廚餘引發另外一種環境的汙染所以我們有一定的規範跟指引在裡面的"},{"start":3635.359,"end":3657.396,"text":"所以已經有確定 已經有了那委員提到的說幾個縣市的案例我們在昨天也有派同仁去稽查那其中有以台中為例有四個四個掩埋場他基本上不大符合規範不過有兩個掩埋場他已經進行掩埋了等於復土了復土了那但是兩個還沒有那他們承諾今天會開始進行復土的工作"},{"start":3658.685,"end":3685.834,"text":"現在全國每天大概有2000多噸的廚藝一部分根本沒有辦法處理只能被送進焚化爐環境部自己說這是最可惜的做法也是最可能損害我們的焚化爐跟環境所以我先問源頭我們看到的是環境部處理的數據看起來100%的廚藝都有被處理可是到底怎麼算出來的過去我知道是用環保單位加上有些公司單位自己收"},{"start":3686.334,"end":3698.504,"text":"或是有些委外回收這些業者依法要申報來回收量可是環境部怎麼確定這數字是真的地下回收業者直接混在垃圾丟掉的廚餘你們掌握得到嗎"},{"start":3700.095,"end":3727.471,"text":"这个其实是第一个是我们需要各个县市环保局一起把这个数据累积上来当然一天一天的可能有一些出入但是如果长期一整年或是几个月来看这个数字是没有问题的可是部长民间推估全台至少有一半的厨余是根本没被回收的所以说这个所以你自己怎么看这些数据到底环境部到底掌握多少系统外的厨余是不是都进了混化炉或掩埋厂"},{"start":3727.891,"end":3752.382,"text":"包委員其實基本上這個廚餘是最好不要進到這個焚化廠因為它有它的一個去化的管道我們是把它當成是能源來看待那這次是因為這個非常時期所以有些會進到焚化廠所以部長是不是可以把你們的統計數據請一個月內提供到我辦公室來做參考那再來就是我很在意就是我們的數據的完整跟透明民間團體建議我們的應該建立我們的廚餘資訊"},{"start":3755.143,"end":3775.682,"text":"公開跟追溯平台他們反映目前的資料是否提供我們的主管機關來調閱社會無法查到哪些業者真的有在做處理處於而且最終流向違和環境部當然會說會加強稽查管理可是我認為還是要具體化所以部長這部分是不是能夠落實公開有沒有具體時程"},{"start":3776.343,"end":3796.479,"text":"好 可以委員這個給我們一點點時間因為最近在處理這個豬瘟在非常時期是不是給我們大概一到兩個月內我們完整的再看完一次而且未來的規劃也會在裡面另外像環保飼料認證制度黑水盲跟生物轉化技術的推廣家戶的廚餘分類跟我們的檢"},{"start":3798.561,"end":3814.299,"text":"減肥的教育那這些建議都已經提出很多年了可是實際落地的情況很有限我觀察到許多家庭並沒有落實我們的廚餘的分類所以請部長說明一下這些政策目前推動進度如何哪些項目已啟動 哪些還在規劃"},{"start":3815.26,"end":3835.382,"text":"包委員這個黑水芒它是一個非常有潛力的但是黑水芒吃完之後它是不是可以當成肥料或是飼料這個部分我們還要再跟農業部來做協商不過因為這次的事件大家都體認到說這個去化的管道的重要性所以我們的確是在討論這個事情我們也希望跟農業部盡快能夠達成一定的一個共識"},{"start":3836.323,"end":3858.528,"text":"所以我覺得除於優先肥料化能源化這是對的方向可是我們還是希望看到具體的配套措施跟落實的成果讓民間可以看到我們政府的政策的決心那另外一個就是部長接下來我想請教幾個環境政策進度的問題上次質詢我們線塑的議題的時候部長就提到環境部正在"},{"start":3859.308,"end":3882.836,"text":"辦理我們的減量里程碑的許願池希望收集民眾對一次性的減塑減量的那個措施的意見部長當時你也說到說因為減塑措施可能影響到日常的便利希望先了解民眾的接受度再決定我們的政策推動方式跟強度那現在這許願池已經在8月31號結束了那我想知道這兩個月"},{"start":3884.136,"end":3906.292,"text":"你接連發生多場的一個天然災害以及近期的一些豬瘟都讓你們很費盡心力可是該做的事情還是要做所以請問部長這個減量里程碑許願值收集到的意見目前進度是如何好 謝謝委員這個收集到非常多的意見不過我也跟您坦承就是說願意來到我們環境部許願的其實他都相對的比較環保"},{"start":3907.813,"end":3923.801,"text":"環保 所以我們現在正在擬清剛好因為我們上禮拜辦了一個亞太的循環的熱點展其實我們就提出了台灣的循環經濟的路徑圖也就是跟這個融合在一起我們的確要把循環率的比例有定出一些方向"},{"start":3924.281,"end":3948.894,"text":"但是我們也必須說這個東西要讓台灣我們大家一起來討論讓社會有一個共識才能夠往前走就很像說廚餘這個事情雖然看起來很容易解決但是如果民眾沒有一個共識這個廚餘牌等於是它是一種垃圾它是有價的 必須要去做處理的所以如果沒有共識的話我們循環經濟就推不起來不過我建議環境部是不是在民意收集完成之後接下來要如何去推動"},{"start":3950.576,"end":3962.229,"text":"我們的檢縮政策要怎麼落實請你把這相關的未來的執行甚至預計後面要達到什麼目標然後一個月內提供給我可以 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問"},{"start":3977.945,"end":4004.21,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證 片片都找不回來"},{"start":4005.13,"end":4022.61,"text":"這個你應該記得風災之後證明點以前的官員他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光電板真的太多了如果沒有簡易迅速有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉"},{"start":4023.471,"end":4040.776,"text":"這個你應該也記得你馬上用你的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能源署"},{"start":4042.136,"end":4062.143,"text":"發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個"},{"start":4066.204,"end":4093.493,"text":"因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下以改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來"},{"start":4094.153,"end":4108.83,"text":"包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶"},{"start":4109.611,"end":4127.083,"text":"你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採重量但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點"},{"start":4127.674,"end":4147.871,"text":"好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大"},{"start":4149.312,"end":4173.087,"text":"12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了"},{"start":4173.727,"end":4192.599,"text":"那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等"},{"start":4193.459,"end":4215.18,"text":"全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您"},{"start":4216.261,"end":4237.678,"text":"這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎"},{"start":4238.977,"end":4265.504,"text":"保護委員因為我沒有在看電視公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息那第二個呢我現在告訴您呢您覺得這樣子合理嗎保護委員因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時呢我們有一個指引如果說要來進行這個掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的"},{"start":4266.084,"end":4289.298,"text":"我懂 等一下我會跟您討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能我跟您分析了一下其實大部分處於每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能"},{"start":4289.958,"end":4319.378,"text":"只有不是你刚刚讲的1620吨因为你刚刚一再的强调说我们现在非喂养猪的再利用量能每天有1620吨然后你们就拿2115吨减到1620吨得出一个很漂亮的结论说整体的再利用空间空缺只有495吨你们乐观的讲说妥善处理绝对没有问题下一张我要跟你细细的讨论是这中间的"},{"start":4322.615,"end":4346.206,"text":"這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的"},{"start":4348.266,"end":4374.52,"text":"你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620平常他沒有做到1620這是設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點的但的確他很久沒有做了他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能"},{"start":4375.182,"end":4392.447,"text":"好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的熟廚魚就是因為熟廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的"},{"start":4393.027,"end":4405.926,"text":"都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的"},{"start":4407.148,"end":4422.6,"text":"我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯"},{"start":4424.102,"end":4451.409,"text":"這個才是重點啊包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵廚來做處理我跟你說這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式"},{"start":4451.829,"end":4464.08,"text":"你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式"},{"start":4465.1,"end":4490.631,"text":"不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的檢核他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊"},{"start":4491.673,"end":4513.918,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後"},{"start":4515.618,"end":4544.051,"text":"經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深處理加熟處理所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟處理全部可以嗎它比例是偏低的吧這裡面已經有在處理深處理了那我們慢慢再把熟處理加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是"},{"start":4544.531,"end":4552.786,"text":"我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎"},{"start":4557.83,"end":4579.904,"text":"如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我說大部分大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎"},{"start":4580.444,"end":4605.117,"text":"我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對"},{"start":4606.258,"end":4629.538,"text":"廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座 這個需要時間那很好 那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了你早就已經小於62%"},{"start":4633.021,"end":4656.011,"text":"現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生好 次長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖除淤山就馬上趕往現場但是"},{"start":4657.071,"end":4675.064,"text":"台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地找方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合"},{"start":4675.925,"end":4705.007,"text":"我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說對啊有可能對這個地下水造成污染等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年耶你說我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水"},{"start":4705.949,"end":4711.243,"text":"帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標"},{"start":4712.765,"end":4742.225,"text":"包委員 你這個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來他們也發現說他們的這樣都不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引"},{"start":4742.645,"end":4771.815,"text":"他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的熟廚育要處理打臉3今天的打臉3這位次長你應該記得吧你上了好多新聞你在過去112年113年114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下當時呢您還說台中市務實的作為亮眼的表現"},{"start":4772.415,"end":4775.658,"text":"優等獎 如果說台中市對於儲油的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼 你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個 環境部絕對不是特意我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼 我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量 就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來"},{"start":4797.115,"end":4813.365,"text":"現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個是委員你說的這個是台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠"},{"start":4814.025,"end":4836.812,"text":"他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的政治能場他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時徵組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正台中市政府我等一下跟你講的指引指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去"},{"start":4837.472,"end":4856.91,"text":"他就部分拿去燒因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢這些側翼又出來亂又說什麼燒又不行我不是側翼我不是側翼我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片投影片"},{"start":4857.23,"end":4886.602,"text":"但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同"},{"start":4887.282,"end":4905.28,"text":"我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說"},{"start":4906.241,"end":4917.164,"text":"能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以燒也可以堆沒有再細分了"},{"start":4918.274,"end":4946.732,"text":"可是我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚魚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼因為你剛剛就講了怕地下水污染緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了"},{"start":4947.712,"end":4971.241,"text":"這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段期間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟您反映地方政府"},{"start":4971.761,"end":4983.514,"text":"當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了"},{"start":4984.941,"end":5004.86,"text":"這個要 這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋掩埋就一定要覆土每天的規範他過去就是也有照你的規範不然他不會等你的假嗎沒有照我們的規範委員沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來 我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去那確實那個場地它的設置"},{"start":5005.501,"end":5017.97,"text":"就不符合我們都會長的規範我們都會長有他設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量"},{"start":5026.616,"end":5044.713,"text":"超大量所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了好嗎謝謝我自己澄清我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情從頭到尾都沒有講"},{"start":5049.858,"end":5070.856,"text":"我必須要嚴重的指出 我也期待你最新的報告我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去 這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請邱正軍委員來做選擇"},{"start":5083.127,"end":5105.414,"text":"主席好 我們請彭部長來 再請彭部長邱委員好 部長好我們先看一下影片好了因為現在廚餘沒有去處"},{"start":5106.914,"end":5125.709,"text":"所以我們有一個要求就拜託現在大家要把食物全部吃完不要有廚餘啦如果吃完就不會有廚餘就不會有廚餘去化的問題沒有廚餘去化的問題我們就能夠不要讓豬隻吃到很多的廚餘所以我們藉這個機會也要拜託拜託大家要把食物吃完不要有廚餘"},{"start":5127.17,"end":5155.864,"text":"這樣就不會有廚餘去化的問題我請教部長你吃香蕉的時候會把香蕉皮吃掉嗎你個人吃飯吃得再怎麼乾淨你在做飯的時候必然是會有委員這個其實減少食物的浪費齁這個是一個愛護環境的方式啦我沒有說減少食物不對啦這個浪費不對只是說他叫這個院長叫大家把這個食物都吃完喔不是很奇怪嗎你吃香蕉會不會把皮吃掉"},{"start":5156.104,"end":5171.526,"text":"不是 院長意思是說我們每天餐上桌上的食物要吃乾淨那就不會有多的廚餘那也跟委員報告因為我們國人的廚藝蠻多的所以這句話的意思是什麼是要我們用人民用這個未來防疫是不是"},{"start":5172.306,"end":5198.484,"text":"絕對不是啦是因為我們我們把香蕉皮吃掉就可以把非洲豬瘟擋掉嗎不可能香蕉皮吃掉的啦委員那個香蕉皮這個不是我們可以吃的宣傳不要浪費食物我覺得這沒有問題但是不要被不要拿來當防範非洲豬瘟的解方不是解方就是說減少這段時間內因為廚餘的確是比較多我們回歸正題啦就是說這是非洲豬瘟的問題你們研判病毒應該是境外傳入對吧"},{"start":5199.862,"end":5213.707,"text":"我不是這個專業我這個那誰可以回答現在還沒人可以回答嗎可以嗎難道是本土嗎沒有叫我上去啊沒有誰可以回答陳部長好不好請陳部長"},{"start":5220.154,"end":5234.492,"text":"我跟委員說明我們現在針對現在目前的案場就是在台中武器這個案場那現在正在進行疫調中那疫調完成以後我們大概就比較能夠了解這個來源到底是從哪裡來的是從境外嗎"},{"start":5235.99,"end":5260.087,"text":"我們過往我們台灣都沒有一定是從境外所以就是說你們也間接承認這是食安五環的第一環這個邊境管理就已經失守了我們從來沒有間接承認食安五環第一環就失守你是從這個境外的話你第一那個食安五環第一環不就是境外嗎境外防範的部分"},{"start":5260.948,"end":5279.933,"text":"我們所有的防範作為對嘛那就是第一環出了問題嘛這樣講對吧我不能這樣講因為四巷五環本身它的境外邊境管制你現在就是說本土沒有嘛那就是一定從外面來嘛那從外面來就是境外管制出問題這樣對嗎邊境管制對啊邊境管制嘛對不對"},{"start":5282.697,"end":5309.112,"text":"那我們這個陳時中政委不是說知道有小偷卻不抓結果你們在邊境那一環你們把小偷放進來的對不對不能用這樣的比喻所以是陳時中比喻不對了我們的政委他比喻不對嘛他的比喻是另外一件事情我說您剛才講的就是說食安五環的第一環裡面邊境把關就是把小偷放進來如果邊境發現的時候就攔下來會有後面的問題嗎"},{"start":5309.972,"end":5335.994,"text":"我想你也非常清楚喔所有的邊境管制不可能百分之百但是我們會出了問題你們出了問題不能夠說大家在那邊看笑話就笑說我們台中市政府明知道有小偷不抓那我們要說那這個小偷是誰放進來的我跟你講喔整個疫調的過程這是非常非常專業的一個疫調在這個情況之下我們希望在防疫的過程中我們就專注防疫"},{"start":5337.025,"end":5343.512,"text":"好啦 你剛才講說是這是從這個邊境管制這個控制沒有控制好就好了我們請彭部長"},{"start":5348.271,"end":5374.248,"text":"部長你在報告裡面寫著現在用廚餘養豬的廠總共是435廠那近一年來養豬戶配合上傳的這個情形其中只有358家上傳率有90%那50家上傳率60%至90%上傳率小於60%的有27家所以沒有一家是達到100%上傳的對吧有 有大概150幾家是可以有到100%有100%嗎"},{"start":5377.338,"end":5387.821,"text":"有有有在我的早上的簡報裡面有有改了是不是有有有那個是90以上對啊90以上就含100就對了151家對含100就對了對對對好那我想請問一下你們這這個435家這個養豬場裡面有曾經因為沒有上傳畫面而開發的嗎"},{"start":5398.534,"end":5422.851,"text":"他們基本上重點是在集合因為他如果沒有百分之百上傳隔月就要去集合要求他們改善就一直要他們改善對然後但是你沒有罰則啊有廢清法廢清法有罰則一般的話是1200到6000如果是他用事業的話是6000到300萬那這個沒有上傳真主畫面就等於沒有依照規定真主"},{"start":5425.138,"end":5442.712,"text":"所以他要加強稽查所以他下個月一定要去看要求他輔導改進對 他改進之後 他如果沒改呢你怎麼知道他有沒有改他一定要再上傳他再上傳 只要他有上傳就沒事有上傳 然後我們去集合他是不是按照照實的去上傳"},{"start":5443.599,"end":5471.604,"text":"對 它上傳這個畫面就能證明它有珍珠嗎基本上我們那個系統裡面可以看得到它的照片拍攝的日期然後它每天的樣態所以我們有人去分析然後如果有一些異常所以我們每個月都會發函給各縣市環保局那沒有上傳它還是沒有沒有上傳它還是沒有罰則對不對沒有上傳就會增加它的稽查的頻率因為各位委員你也知道養豬場它是很害怕人家進去看的所以增強它的稽查頻率所以我們的稽查頻率是非常多的"},{"start":5472.863,"end":5494.66,"text":"所以他們後來你現在意思說台中市政府沒有去做稽查嗎報告委員因為那個是禮拜天的時候工作會議的時候我們同仁有特別提出來因為我們在疫調的時候可能有一些速度的地方所以我們同仁有提出來這樣的情境他的確在這個從5月開始就有顯著的這個異常然後我們有提醒他們但是他們只有去了兩次"},{"start":5496.26,"end":5508.425,"text":"只去了兩次那我再請問一下這435家養豬場就是說有那麼多沒有上傳按時間上傳的那到底罰了幾家請我們副署長說有開罰的"},{"start":5511.054,"end":5534.861,"text":"根據委員報告 基本上上傳是讓我們來根據上傳的情況來調整我們的稽查的頻率如果他不上 我覺得很奇怪的一件事情既然有罰則 為什麼那個不直接重複他沒上傳就開罰呢不是 沒上傳之後我們去稽查為什麼要再多一個動作稽查發現他為什麼嘛 你跟我講為什麼要再多一個動作"},{"start":5542.839,"end":5562.181,"text":"沒有上傳你為什麼不直接就開罰部長你同意嗎我們來立法可以嗎包委員因為這個國人其實對於雖然我是我不吃豬肉我吃蔬食可是豬是國人的需求養豬農他們其實也很辛苦所以基本上這套制度不在於要罰多少而是說它有這個集合的動作"},{"start":5562.742,"end":5576.684,"text":"法律本來也沒很重啊 對不對只是說 我只是要講的是說他沒有上傳因為你沒有強制嘛你沒有強制的話就造成這個業者他就會忘記啊今天如果要有罰則的話他就不會忘記嘛"},{"start":5577.609,"end":5605.54,"text":"保委員這個對於養豬業者壓力會很大所以基本上我們是希望他們一起來配合來進行為什麼壓力會大呢其實委員九成的業者都上傳率大概九成以上每天的上傳率九成以上是沒有這個問題的對啊 那他們就不會有壓力那其他人為什麼會有壓力對 某些的個案就所以我們環境部就是等於讓你這個法律解釋當中有空間讓養豬戶他覺得說他們有空間可以去做調整那為什麼不一次把它"},{"start":5606.28,"end":5631.724,"text":"到位這樣子讓我們所有的執法的人員也很好執法委員不會到現在推來推去的沒有推來推去因為其他家其他例如說被我們列為警示的有邀請各地方政府能夠去稽查的他們其實大多數都有按照這個方式去做稽核也都有改善所以這個制度是沒有問題的我這樣講啦如果說把這個沒有上傳這個部分來做一個修法你覺得同意嗎"},{"start":5632.624,"end":5657.362,"text":"委員這個其實養豬其實我相信經過這個疫情都是一個非常挑戰的工作如果委員有這樣的意願的話我們也遵照大院的建議但是現在環境部的意思就是說以後這個廚餘我們可能不再沒有沒有沒有委員因為我們現在看到這樣其實這個制度或許有可以改進的地方所以我們如果未來要持續進行的話我們會用即時監控即時監控用連線的方式來進行"},{"start":5658.303,"end":5684.403,"text":"所以你們還是廚餘未來還是會使用就對了沒有 因為這個到底要怎樣 到底要用還是不要用這個不是 我說剛剛那個陳季季部長有特別說得很清楚我們會再來進行這個評估來處理所以你的態度呢基本上廚餘有廚餘的這個價值啦如果說在這個製作設計好的話他可以養那個黑水芒嘛對不對對對對你會大力的來提這個鼓勵這個業者來做這個嗎這個是循環境界的表現我們會鼓勵"},{"start":5688.245,"end":5714.186,"text":"台灣一年生產77萬噸的廚藝其中六成二拿去餵豬三成拿去做堆肥換句話說上一次討論就是要禁止廚藝養豬到現在七年過去了養豬戶依然是廚藝去化的最大戶所以我想雲林那時候七年前雲林就禁止這個廚藝養豬當時我們賴清德院長還親自反對說去化能量不足禁止太會會造成廚藝危機"},{"start":5715.467,"end":5744.15,"text":"那我們現在看到的狀況就是你政府一進台中市政府他的台中市那麼大的這個量能他也沒辦法去處理嘛所以他也只能做掩埋對不對所以他現在也只能做掩埋你說那些場地你在臨時你要找到一個合法的場地本來就有困難啊你連不要講中央單位都有困難啊何況是地方政府對不對像這個時候我們已經搞了7年了那用燒的也燒不完啊那我想說未來我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":5746.255,"end":5764.462,"text":"未來的話我們還是希望從這個更有效的一個利用方式來進行那至於說能不能這個廚藥作為飼料這個是未來可能可以再討論的問題對啦 因為七年了啦去化能量不足我們也不能禁止禁用廚藥七年後一樣去化能量不足所以我們"},{"start":5765.262,"end":5792.97,"text":"我這樣看是不是等這事情過了之後然後又傳過水無痕又忘了剛剛那個陳部長我農業部也特別提到說他們會強化輔導的方式因為7年前我發現我們現在的耐心的政府因為狀況一個接一個很快這個下一個狀況又會把今天這事情蓋掉我希望這件事情能夠在你任內在最近能夠統一一個說法然後一個很好的解決辦法可以嗎"},{"start":5793.91,"end":5816.81,"text":"這個我們正在努力當中我們先把這個疫情趕快整個告一段好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長接下來請王育敏委員來做詢問我會宣告我們到蘇清玄招委詢問結束之後休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席我先請教農業部部長陳部長那請陳部長"},{"start":5822.932,"end":5835.018,"text":"我也好部長好 部長這次的非洲豬瘟的病毒這個很顯然一定是從境外進來的在你們的報告裡面的第5頁事實上你們過去在機場這個機場這邊被棄置的這些豬肉產品你們檢測了9511件樣本"},{"start":5843.522,"end":5868.809,"text":"有997件大概10點多對 呈現陽性我個人覺得這樣的比例是蠻高的那我要問的是特別是今年今年1到10月你們有沒有去分析今年這樣子就是樣本裡面檢測出來的比例有多高來自於哪一些國家你們有沒有針對國家去做分析就是做出那個比例的分析今年的部分等一下我稍後看看有沒有資料不過我想要跟委員說明的就是我們這樣子的一個統計的母數是"},{"start":5871.77,"end":5898.025,"text":"旅客進來以後我們宣導他氣質的這些產品而不是稽查到去抽到的這個部分那些產品裡面有哪些國家比較多這樣的一個數據是代表的背後代表意義就是說來自高風險區的這些國家他的肉製品會有比較高的風險大概將近10%那過往的數據裡面大概這個10%裡面大概有將近七成到八成是來自於中國"},{"start":5899.105,"end":5908.745,"text":"來自於中國那這個會跟旅客的比例是有關的那至於114年你們這邊有沒有資料今年有沒有最新的就是我們必須掌握最新的情況嘛"},{"start":5909.895,"end":5929.125,"text":"報告委員到目前統計到上週總共中國有來自1,125件檢驗147件陽性 陽性比例13.1 越南69件陽性比例13件 陽性比例18.8泰國檢驗168件 7件陽性比例4.2所以平均是11.3以上說明"},{"start":5929.773,"end":5957.207,"text":"好 所以現在最多的就是中國大陸 越南跟泰國嘛這三個國家嘛 對不對那現在旅客的部分進來的這個東南亞的國家像越南跟泰國你們有強化嗎因為我們現在入客是不准來的啊所以會經由這個旅客直接再夾帶進來的事實上越南跟泰國如果在你們檢測比例這麼高的話你們有沒有列為重點他們現在回來的班機所夾帶的這些行李有沒有百分之百的"},{"start":5957.247,"end":5986.491,"text":"我想我們在邊境的旅客的部分我們大概分為來自於有疫區的我們把它列為高風險區那高風險區的話不管他的手提行李或者是後送的行李是百分之百經過X光檢查所以現在越南跟泰國都有對 就是只要39個國家都只要跟我們國家那你們認為現在這一波的漏洞會來自於哪裡如果我們的這個邊境這麼的嚴密的話破口會來自於哪裡我們現在在疫調過程中還沒辦法很確定但是"},{"start":5987.071,"end":6012.17,"text":"那它現在這個病毒株跟哪一個國家比較相似現在也沒辦法確定我們有做這個定序因為解序的過程中它的DNA蠻大的還在做處理你們第一時間有對外說是跟越南株比較相近現在還是嗎我們應該沒有這樣說媒體上面有報導所以要澄清一下我們某一段因為那時候基因有很多片段某一段的部分那你們什麼時候會出來"},{"start":6013.992,"end":6037.595,"text":"這個禮拜五會出來嘛盡快做出來因為是來自於哪一個國家這個也蠻重要你要對症下藥嘛不要這個亂槍打鳥如果是針對哪一個國家來的那的確去加研這個我們都贊成好這個農業部請接下來我要請教這個彭部長今天講的是廚餘的問題那這個廚餘的問題呢我要問你廚餘共同徵足場是不是你們管理的"},{"start":6039.55,"end":6058.136,"text":"共同徵阻的機制你是不是主管機關如果它沒有符合溫度的因為它是廢棄物廚餘完了之後就到那個徵阻徵阻的過程是我們管的是你們管的嗎對廚餘共同徵阻場原本你們設了一個很大的目標要在這個新北桃園台中彰化屏東"},{"start":6059.096,"end":6088.485,"text":"都要設置115年你們共同珍珠場的量能可以達到一天可以消化2600公噸你目前的整個家戶家事業加起來不過2115噸那你原來有一個很遠大的計畫結果你現在只剩下有苗栗僅有一場那你這個計畫會胎死腹中不推了嗎還是現在有什麼困難因為115年其實就到了就明年了"},{"start":6089.465,"end":6111.816,"text":"對 報委員這個珍珠廠的規劃更是環境部跟農業部在負責那我們是負責監控它有沒有珍珠的過程當中符合這個環保的法律那沒達到這個目標誰要負責是你要負責還是農業部負責這是我們要一起來推動的事情那你們現在目標就是沒有達到啊你們到底要不要推 我要問的是你們要不要繼續推這個是不是要請農業部來協助回答因為這個珍珠的增薪還是屬於農業部"},{"start":6114.037,"end":6133.334,"text":"處於共同珍珠廠好來陳部長這個是環境部管還是你們管我看阿姆什麼什麼的我跟委員說明現在目前共同珍珠廠有四個縣市九個案場在申請那已經營運的是苗栗的那個廠那相對的在這個共同珍珠廠裡面特別是在台中還應該是"},{"start":6135.055,"end":6162.183,"text":"那個屏東的部分有很多就是他們認為是零幣設施所以一定要跟地方溝通這是最大的困難那第二個我要跟委員說明共同徵主場在一般的豬農就是廚餘養豬戶的豬農來講他們其實蠻擔心的他們一直認為自己徵主的才安全那共同徵主的話他們是擔心的所以如果共同徵主場是大家廚餘的這些豬農有意願的話我們一定來協助"},{"start":6163.311,"end":6174.142,"text":"所以現在是豬農反對所以沒有要繼續推了又是避零設施豬農又反對對沒有這個就是說我們還會再去特別是我們趁這個現在我們一直在跟"},{"start":6176.589,"end":6204.16,"text":"廚藝養豬戶講共同徵組如果能夠落實安全會比你自己徵組同樣是安全的前提下共同徵組是比較有效率的所以這個部分我們針對現在個別的廚藝徵組場我們會去檢查它的設備有沒有比較需要的這個部分我想我們會持續的所以你們的方向到底是要往共同徵組場如果豬農有意願我們會支持如果豬農有意願用共同徵組的話我們會支持那現在是反對嗎"},{"start":6205.321,"end":6209.408,"text":"現在有的戰場有的反對所以現在有四個縣市 九個案場"},{"start":6210.405,"end":6238.09,"text":"對啊所以你現在這個看起來是沒有辦法順利的往下推動嘛你現在就僅有苗栗一場嘛這個就是我要問的問題我們到底在這個廚餘的方向上面你要怎麼做你就是要一個方向目標你做到底就對了那看起來你原本設定一個很大的目標共同徵足場又可以確保這個集體的安全然後呢又可以大量的消化一天有2600噸但是現在呢遇到這個到地方之後遇到豬籠反彈或什麼"},{"start":6238.59,"end":6257.199,"text":"那你们要决定啊政策就是要决定要不要往下走啊你的资源要往哪边做我们一直讲我们的政策一直不变就是持续的辅导我们的处理养猪的去转型那从过去的2000多场一直到现在434场不断的转型那在"},{"start":6258.277,"end":6279.692,"text":"只要你繼續養那你就要落實你的廚藝的徵主那第二個部分就是說廚藝養豬場是不是可以設立用徵主中心是地方政府 地方政府齁其實我們也會跟地方政府合作如果地方政府覺得說他的場本身對他們現實來講他不願意這樣存在那他可以做這樣相關的廢止但是以農業部的立場來講 但這是你中央的計畫不是嗎"},{"start":6281.653,"end":6299.715,"text":"你這整個是你中央的計畫啊你現在又要講地方政府不是 這個地方核准的啊對啊 但是中央你有這樣的一個目標嘛我們政策如果他們需要我們支持啊這個是你規劃的嘛你們規劃的就是要往這個方向嘛所以這個我看起來你們現在很有問題喔遇到問題的時候不是停擺而是"},{"start":6300.416,"end":6320.733,"text":"要趕快去解決 去突破同意 我絕對同意所以我們政策不變所以我今天聽不出來共同珍珠場如果地方要合作豬農願意的時候我們一定支持那現在就是遇到問題啊那你要去了解啊如果推不下去你要趕快轉方向嘛對 所以我才說我們持續的方向是股島"},{"start":6322.774,"end":6347.943,"text":"這個農業部跟環境部你們把你們檢討報告提出來到底這個共同珍珠廠你要不要按你原來的目標去達到你的目標還是因為遇到了困難你要去做一些的調整我覺得政策必須做出檢討一個月之後提檢討報告可以嗎我跟委員報告一個月是不是可以比較長的時間因為我們現在正在防疫我們在防疫的時候可能告一階段然後防疫完了以後三個月我們看看有一個規劃的情形"},{"start":6348.883,"end":6377.211,"text":"三個月要把這個政策提出來另外我要請教這個彭部長那個你在報告裡面提到這個廚餘養豬場申報上傳的狀況按照你剛剛的一個報告真的可以做到百分之百每天按時上傳的只有151家也佔整體42%而已其他的豬場其實通通都是做不到的今天不是只有發生在台中的這個豬場沒有做到"},{"start":6377.671,"end":6402.192,"text":"你看看你自己的報告裡面這個低於這個60%到90%的還有50家低於60%的有27家我就問針對這樣一個現象今天台中的個案我們可以去看有些要改進的那就改進但不是只有台中啊我看你的這個報告根本就是一半以上通通都達不到100%的要求啊"},{"start":6402.892,"end":6429.494,"text":"因為有些它是例如說它總會放假我們規定是每天不管有沒有煮都要上船所以那個很嚴格的所以它可能那天他們休假它沒有煮或是它沒有用別的方式或是說它有些它已經不用處於養豬了所以基本上我們當然說不是說申報率百分之百就一定沒問題沒有 我們未來是要用這種所謂的監控的方式能夠來處理不是說用這樣申報的方式我們希望有一個更好的作用"},{"start":6429.514,"end":6445.291,"text":"那是你未來嘛你現在就是要求他每天拍照上傳嘛那現在做得到的就只有一百五十一家嘛就是有超過五成其實都是沒有做到的應該是說九十以上九百分之九三百五十八家是算是我們認為還可以的"},{"start":6447.273,"end":6470.712,"text":"但他也沒有百分之百也沒有每一天你們現在的嚴格是每一天一定要對不對那我要講的就是在這件事情上面事實上環境部你該去做的是什麼就是整體你的廚餘的規劃而不要落入到個案的這樣的一個攻防我認為這樣是不妥的當台中市政府去說這個看起來應該是不是要修法更明確來開罰你們馬上就要說不用"},{"start":6473.534,"end":6492.792,"text":"廢清法開法最高可以300萬講得很大聲到目前為止也沒有人這樣子做啊因為他要引用的他要適用的你剛剛在回答這一個委員答詢的時候還說哎呀我們的目的是輔導啦我們也不是要開法那如果是這樣子不用去加碼就是你這一個政策本身"},{"start":6493.513,"end":6518.44,"text":"你如果不是要著重重罰你的重點是輔導希望改善希望可以有一個更好的監測工具那就往那個方向去現在整個都弄混了那大家要來討論是說這個要不要重罰你剛又說不是要重罰所以養豬場都很辛苦啊那現在到底是什麼就大家會覺得在不斷的這種參入政治工坊之後整個都弄混了"},{"start":6518.72,"end":6548.206,"text":"希望環境部你回到你的專業今天要不要全面禁廚餘這件事情請看看日本跟新加坡的做法我們可以看到日本跟新加坡我們都一直覺得他是我們的模範跟指標人家為什麼可以做我們為什麼不可以而在多年前張立善縣長他其實已經呼籲了我們可以全面禁廚餘現在的養豬協會也是這樣的呼聲但是呢這個我不知道現在在反對全面禁廚餘的到底是哪一個人"},{"start":6548.826,"end":6576.448,"text":"哪一個部會是環境部嗎沒有你們沒有那就去做啊全面禁廚餘啊請問我們那個副市長說明一下你們可以好好去規劃仿效日本跟新加坡的做法要跟委員報告其實日本它的廚餘它還是可以做成飼料可以啊 這個我不反對啊對 所以它做成飼料還是可以養豬美國有一些州它還是徵主之後可以去餵豬所以這個各國的國情不一樣啦所以我們現在當然"},{"start":6577.509,"end":6595.176,"text":"因為我們現在面臨非洲豬瘟的威脅啊大家都民意共識很高啊 全面禁養廚餘啊不用你們宣佈 現在嘉義縣也跟進宣佈那個高雄市這個民進黨執政縣市都跟進宣佈啊他們也覺得要全面禁養啊你們不調整你們的政策嗎"},{"start":6596.107,"end":6619.72,"text":"所以你們要及早去思考嗎對 我們會再來研究說你要及早去思考現在每天產生的2115噸的這些廚餘透過你環境部一個非常有序的規劃你到底未來把它乾燥成飼料可能是你想要做的然後豔陽發酵可能也是你其中的一部分還有其他轉換成能源可能也是"},{"start":6620.18,"end":6648.487,"text":"哪幾種是你要推你的資源就要用在這個上面而不是現在每天還在說這些珍珠廠每天拍照上傳報告委員我必須澄清一下那個你剛才指控就是說我們用這種政治我沒有因為我們在這個發生疫情我們在這個疫情的應變這個指揮台中會議裡面我們提出來說可能珍珠廠這個過程這個可能有一些這個沒有確實的地方我們提出來是給這個專家能夠來審核那當然外界會來瞭解"},{"start":6648.507,"end":6664.224,"text":"沒有達標的還有很多也不是只有這一個案其實大多數的業者很多的縣市也都積極去處理你的表格表格我再讓你看一次啊這個表格就非常清楚啊這是你們自己整理的表欸所以我才說報委員他如果沒有到的話沒有每天申報的話"},{"start":6664.804,"end":6689.622,"text":"他隔個月就會去稽查 稽查他的目標就是他到底有沒有真主 沒有真主的話就要開罰所以部長我要提醒你的是 今天你是一個部長不是只看一件事情 不是專到那件事情 而是你要看整體就像你今天這個簡報 看出來就是不是只有台中這個養豬場沒有申報率百分之百嘛 有這麼多家將近上百家也都沒有做到位啊 那你們要怎麼去管"},{"start":6690.882,"end":6706.313,"text":"有做到為他縣市政府有沒有去稽查這是最關鍵那其他沒有做到你有沒有去督導有有其他縣市我們有資料說他到底有沒有那哪些縣市你把那個報告給我這個我們同仁都有報告分佈在哪一些縣市好不好"},{"start":6706.653,"end":6728.282,"text":"我只是要提醒你這個整個中央部會你要做的是未來的整個政策規劃從這個個案裡面看到你未來要怎麼因應特別是全面禁止處理這件事情你們要趕快想好你的配套是我們已經在想了不要每一個縣市都說我全面禁止然後你才被逼的你要開始轉彎要來做這件事情提早去規劃好嗎謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":6733.612,"end":6745.505,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉召委來做詢問謝謝 謝謝主席我請環境部長還有農業部長來 請本部長 陳部長來來來"},{"start":6754.285,"end":6779.014,"text":"講出王一鳴委員講很多來 我們現在這個廚餘也不要太多的政治啦我感覺這要專業啦這樣醫療感看喔不要意識形態太嚴重啦這樣的話大家都很辛苦講到最後就要失焦了好 廚餘的方式第一就是像以前爭取了二十一年嘛對過了六十年了我們就這樣過了嘛對不對"},{"start":6781.54,"end":6802.955,"text":"底裡就是焚化 焚化是非常不容易的每件東西都拿去燒 燒成一了百了但是這個是循環經濟或者是能源轉換還有除以一大堆水分 脫水後再去燒還是直接把水帶進去 帶進去整個焚化爐"},{"start":6804.181,"end":6815.485,"text":"那個溫度會下降啊等等啊那個是很麻煩的事情你們都不去啊我去有風暖啊博敦你也去過風暖爐啊我們屏東那邊都有氣過第三就是煙霾嘛像台中市現在用煙霾煙霾也是炒糕糕啊沒效益啊"},{"start":6820.712,"end":6833.306,"text":"再過來的堆肥像南京的一座 南京都會堆肥也超過公園 都嫌惡設施所以你的廚餘65% 70%都是蒸煮料吃的"},{"start":6837.732,"end":6861.184,"text":"第一是能源熱量轉換最好 換熱力最好對不對 五點所以你說要用珍珠 我是絕百分之百贊成你說要統一珍珠 我也百分之百贊成你說要有五個位 要有一個座你說剛才我們陳部長說這個珍珠場也是用鹹的但是我要跟你說你如果設立風化爐的旁邊就好了"},{"start":6866.511,"end":6878.304,"text":"風化爐旁邊都土地都有啊那不是很大面積嘛你風化爐旁邊風化爐本來就嫌惡事實大家都嚇到不得了但是它都回歸真了所以你放在那裡沒問題"},{"start":6880.523,"end":6893.511,"text":"文部長你覺得怎麼樣委員你的這個建議非常好啦我們會考慮啦但是我們有聽到一個意見說這個豬吃的東西從焚化爐來那個就髒髒臭臭的所以這個要改變因為焚化爐現在其實都還蠻乾淨的所以這個我們會來評估"},{"start":6897.611,"end":6923.719,"text":"我覺得風化爐旁邊的空地都有狗啦尤其是風化爐旁邊的煎肉比較便宜煎肉都放進去做好了嘛那你說這個豬的熱量轉換因為豬是雜食性所以牠吃這個之後變成飯肉這是最有效率的啦所以當然黑水盲現在說的黑水盲但是黑水盲吃起來要糖"},{"start":6924.699,"end":6948.424,"text":"到底是可以理由嗎 到底有安全嗎 我們也不知道好 所以你們要設這個集中徵處 我改記請我要跟委員報告 現在有四個縣市九個案子那屏東有六個案子申請那兩個已經 農業部大概已經同意四個在同意 兩個還在審查"},{"start":6950.945,"end":6975.127,"text":"我跟人家說的在垃圾場去做我覺得是一個還不錯的想法然後也可以適度的利用它的焚燒的熱效益來帶動減少它的能源 增足能源消耗但是一個共同增足一定要因為設了以後一定要豬農願意用啦豬農不願意用的時候那比較麻煩所以我們現在也在跟這些廚藝養豬戶在做溝通你現在車子一開"},{"start":6978.223,"end":6982.867,"text":"扯進去 湯倒進去 就要斟酌你出來以後 又要加湯因為湯在你身上 要用不一樣的湯這就像醫療一樣買一批準備室 買一批消毒室一批在家裡是分開的 一個蒙一批 一個蒙出來湯都不一樣 你人要怎麼消毒火的東西都是汙染 你扯也要怎麼消毒"},{"start":7004.284,"end":7023.888,"text":"你不可以這樣一樣一支一支 又一樣又串起來東西白做的 你的湯本身搞不好就都汙染 湯要怎麼抓這個倒是 都要用那個沒有到醫療標準至少有半個醫療標準來 我再來請陳部長問我們現在廚餘在企業差不多四五十萬隻嘛 裡面臥底差不多二十萬隻 對不對"},{"start":7030.67,"end":7046.181,"text":"46.6萬隻啦 出於洋豬場 434戶啦那裡面黑豬 我們保種豬黑豬 白豬 黑差不多20萬隻差不多 十幾萬 差不多啊 都在屏東比較多嗎 芬林 屏東屏東 屏東 屏東比較多因為黑豬在生長過程滿嘛差不多一年十三個月嘛對 差不多一年左右啊 那一般白豬是六個月而已嘛對 180天"},{"start":7053.318,"end":7067.69,"text":"厲害 用心來 所以這些黑白人都吃魚也不好所以他吃廚藝三十年了都這樣在吃幾乎就是這個廚藝廠這個餐廳他都沒煮就在刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺"},{"start":7078.329,"end":7094.042,"text":"我剛才也一直強調 廚藝養豬它是一個很好的飼料只要我們落實徵主所以徵主的條件的落實的監管跟控制跟集合才是重點如果做得好的話 廚藝養豬是沒問題的所以這個養豬廠本身就要教育本身就要監控 要養什麼都好再來就是休養"},{"start":7103.831,"end":7110.733,"text":"這個獸醫我是覺得他在這一場這個出事這一場是說10月10號就開始出問題了你到10月20號在那邊說嘛那獸醫 我要一件事要跟部長說那獸醫的兩種一種是寵物的 其中一種是經濟動物的那這經濟的牛啦 牛仔啦這個那你給獸醫 獸醫一個月薪水差不多多少啦"},{"start":7129.502,"end":7153.455,"text":"沒有 如果受益的話他公職的但是我們從今年六月 應該是六月開始有一個受益不開業獎金每個月增加一萬到三萬所以一個公職的受益一個月薪水差不多多少差不多 資深的差不多七到十萬七到十萬 如果像這個民間的這個你看這張 你要看這酬勞 怕死人就酬勞是要逼付"},{"start":7158.567,"end":7165.774,"text":"我現在也要替我們全國的獸醫師講話我覺得我們對於這種經濟動物的獸醫師他們的責任非常重大他們是監護我們整個國家的農業會崩盤耶你這次這麼多雞這隻你在發財我會去獸醫師這隻吃你陳部長發財"},{"start":7182.704,"end":7196.335,"text":"我這樣子 你剛才講的這些收費參考我會去了解那我覺得當然只是參考啦但是參考是有它的指標性啦我覺得我們應該增加它的福利啦300隻 以下的一個月湊了五百塊不然他都用訂的 問問的而已他都連來都沒有 我看他的 為投稿費都沒來啊"},{"start":7204.502,"end":7231.716,"text":"他要負最大的責任這草老這很兇 這比剃頭還要兇我想這個可能跟地方政府不同縣市地方政府他的定定不過這個部分我記起來我覺得委員講得非常對我覺得在真正的對他們的一些標準一定要有系統要去提高而且是要有對於他這個能夠讓他能夠盡到這個責任所以我會請我們的房檢署會員大家的手藝都照樣做寵物"},{"start":7233.067,"end":7256.327,"text":"寵物跟我們的性命無關的那是給我們精神很爽的這樣而已如果說 因為大家醫生都知道他做美容那也是悲慘的所以如何保護這些在做重症的醫師如何在保護這些在做經濟動物的這些醫師要給我們有起碼的保障啊要打到要死 打到要死那分數很高的耶你讓我那三五萬塊 五萬塊"},{"start":7262.11,"end":7288.641,"text":"我做過全國藝術的 你說對嗎我看著我看著 他們很憤怒所以我們的受益是我跟你講 這個是堆疊上去嘛我們的社會跟這個廠商你說一公斤一十塊有什麼了不起但是你這些人要給他尊嚴給他地位 給他收入這樣的話才能要求他高薪才能要求人家做事情啊不對"},{"start":7289.505,"end":7313.383,"text":"你常常把這裡弄成這樣 這太廉價了如果我不重視這個我就不會去爭取他們的不開業獎金一到三萬五萬也可以啊不開業獎金五萬塊啊 搞什麼抓不起可以嗎一步一步來 我們已經進了好不容易爭取到一到三萬了然後過一段時間我們再看看但是您剛才講的民間的部分我們也會來處理"},{"start":7314.526,"end":7337.818,"text":"對啦 這個這種獸醫師是他自己去續產協會推薦的還是他自己找人的我們應該有個list嘛然後由畜牧場這邊他有些特約獸醫師嘛那特約獸醫師不是每一天在那邊工作啦對啦 我知道啦他有減的啦 減什麼就對了啦但是他都沒去看嘛 他也要順一下"},{"start":7339.824,"end":7344.847,"text":"我覺得這不純粹是錢的問題我覺得這個是錢很重要錢是一個因素但是特約醫師跟畜牧場之間的這個互動我覺得那才是重點我們會來檢視這個後續的獸醫師跟畜牧場之間的互動"},{"start":7356.991,"end":7374.363,"text":"獸醫師的地位 尊嚴有沒有給人家尊重 是他們的收入這三個都要 瞭解我就對不起我們全國的獸醫師瞭解 要加油啦好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝蘇委員蘇昭偉對獸醫師發言好 謝謝我們現在休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7458.729,"end":7460.194,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7616.852,"end":7625.179,"text":"像經紀委會就是展館而已其他人在這邊然後可以跑來跑去"},{"start":7698.663,"end":7715.173,"text":"對,可是怎麼來的啊?"},{"start":7739.929,"end":7743.179,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7781.035,"end":7805.105,"text":"太好了"},{"start":7836.83,"end":7838.39,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":7877.602,"end":7883.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7912.112,"end":7921.163,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7946.084,"end":7955.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8006.018,"end":8022.78,"text":"好 我們休息時間到 繼續開會接下來請林淑雯委員來做選擇謝謝主席 是不是要請我們彭部長來 有請彭部長"},{"start":8027.908,"end":8041.697,"text":"李委員好部長 你剛才很多人問你那你一直講到說對於廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測 AI輔助然後要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統"},{"start":8046.5,"end":8065.319,"text":"你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛 對不對目前是 對"},{"start":8066.459,"end":8083.385,"text":"對 但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具"},{"start":8083.985,"end":8089.067,"text":"你剛才講的好像是說你們要即時監測AI輔助但我現在要告訴你你現在的所有的過去這些年來從什麼發現中國的這個豬瘟然後到開始管理 監測我們發現這些年來你所使用的一個監測的工具其實沒有具備主動的風險管理的能力這個系統的設計非常的粗糙"},{"start":8112.659,"end":8115.806,"text":"號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計"},{"start":8117.662,"end":8144.949,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們都知道你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示 警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視你讓大家去看這個"},{"start":8147.512,"end":8173.841,"text":"檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的"},{"start":8174.981,"end":8203.013,"text":"然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有"},{"start":8203.573,"end":8223.275,"text":"他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單"},{"start":8224.758,"end":8248.008,"text":"然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳"},{"start":8249.088,"end":8273.307,"text":"就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭你點頭如搗蒜"},{"start":8277.23,"end":8294.218,"text":"因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力"},{"start":8295.359,"end":8317.104,"text":"而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統"},{"start":8320.231,"end":8348.141,"text":"這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫"},{"start":8350.715,"end":8369.651,"text":"所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事"},{"start":8373.034,"end":8392.247,"text":"對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的去檢測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎"},{"start":8394.028,"end":8417.911,"text":"那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號"},{"start":8419.232,"end":8433.963,"text":"第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能"},{"start":8434.984,"end":8455.04,"text":"所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種"},{"start":8457.081,"end":8474.19,"text":"現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前"},{"start":8478.001,"end":8503.447,"text":"你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到 112年8月以後我知道我知道8月 112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個"},{"start":8507.711,"end":8529.214,"text":"避重就輕 稽查是重點但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這一套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要那我們這套系統不重要嗎"},{"start":8530.43,"end":8546.776,"text":"這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料"},{"start":8548.476,"end":8554.961,"text":"這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有是等設備故障上傳的工具有問題的時候讓他補傳可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上"},{"start":8573.493,"end":8589.044,"text":"就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示所以這個系統沒人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來說看看《每日申報》的核心意義在哪裡"},{"start":8600.271,"end":8628.178,"text":"你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像莫定 你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊"},{"start":8629.338,"end":8637.142,"text":"核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務"},{"start":8648.167,"end":8669.597,"text":"我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具我意思是說它當作我們一個輔助計程的工具我現在要問部長了如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎如果像他講的還可以補船影像那它的真實性我們要如何確保"},{"start":8671.938,"end":8691.853,"text":"我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去做申報很規矩的"},{"start":8692.373,"end":8699.122,"text":"那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆"},{"start":8704.896,"end":8732.998,"text":"我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有特別看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的可以他怎麼抓得到好他只要像手機我們拍照"},{"start":8733.878,"end":8746.403,"text":"會有拍照的日期它傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到它拍照的日期手機拍照手機也可以拍照片手機拍照片就是今天拍的那張照片是兩年前"},{"start":8748.878,"end":8775.001,"text":"這個上有政策下有對策所以我在告訴你這個問題一個系統的成功不是依賴這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的養豬場的檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導"},{"start":8775.882,"end":8800.681,"text":"那台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次"},{"start":8802.026,"end":8825.724,"text":"以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入"},{"start":8829.926,"end":8835.091,"text":"地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦"},{"start":8852.625,"end":8865.087,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面他就是有這種風險而我們開放的這種許可那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾外外地方政府"},{"start":8866.331,"end":8882.651,"text":"原仲的幾個月沒有去 然後去了去了更令人不解的是 他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼 沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是 這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規"},{"start":8884.997,"end":8911.263,"text":"他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊"},{"start":8912.554,"end":8930.978,"text":"他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤"},{"start":8938.51,"end":8942.453,"text":"地方政府這麼亂來我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 補充當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個機場當然我們有一個考核的機制啦就是我不是在說考核業者啦我問你的是地方政府你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的機場是重中之重最重要 第一重要"},{"start":8968.534,"end":8987.546,"text":"現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規屬於的違規啊 他還說沒有發現任何違規不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理"},{"start":8989.285,"end":9004.422,"text":"這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管"},{"start":9010.103,"end":9032.494,"text":"中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認了你三個月就可以開一遍會也沒發現他違規了台中市政府亂搞不負責任"},{"start":9037.837,"end":9055.835,"text":"蓄意偉儀 彈射一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過"},{"start":9058.217,"end":9073.086,"text":"中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講了啦他講不出來第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長"},{"start":9073.746,"end":9094.443,"text":"我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查需應 需放一招 需以為宜他去看 再跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個"},{"start":9095.544,"end":9117.613,"text":"督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力"},{"start":9122.128,"end":9139.71,"text":"你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員這個我們會來再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商"},{"start":9140.273,"end":9147.74,"text":"你要去解決 要改革整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的"},{"start":9154.771,"end":9181.968,"text":"這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天增主申報狀況不佳就是異常除以再利用量超出許可量異常有增主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳除於增主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼"},{"start":9182.708,"end":9193.193,"text":"然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府做虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的處理再利用的豬場430場"},{"start":9210.8,"end":9221.548,"text":"然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就是全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變"},{"start":9224.162,"end":9238.736,"text":"包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論好 到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘"},{"start":9241.579,"end":9258.992,"text":"如果你不是要永久禁掉的話出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理包括我剛才講的那一些問題你們不裡面你們不裡面的管理就需要改進了啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了謝謝 委員的建議 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請廖偉祥 廖朝偉來做詢問"},{"start":9273.94,"end":9302.163,"text":"謝謝主席 請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎"},{"start":9304.023,"end":9329.466,"text":"現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在正式的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有非洲豬瘟所以"},{"start":9330.407,"end":9358.98,"text":"非洲豬人的手力一定是從境外移出來的對一定從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻盡可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守進到除夷系統"},{"start":9359.58,"end":9365.845,"text":"那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下"},{"start":9366.952,"end":9393.974,"text":"現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們"},{"start":9395.562,"end":9420.809,"text":"農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年 107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是對 但是如果這件事情我先說廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵阻落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的"},{"start":9422.449,"end":9439.297,"text":"完了以後它是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實它的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是 很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話"},{"start":9440.618,"end":9463.828,"text":"重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長"},{"start":9464.808,"end":9492.745,"text":"農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬那目前環境部的報告說禁衛豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗那禁衛後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛"},{"start":9494.286,"end":9515.956,"text":"但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎"},{"start":9516.576,"end":9542.324,"text":"報告委員短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的"},{"start":9542.964,"end":9564.645,"text":"是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場"},{"start":9565.646,"end":9594.328,"text":"是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式"},{"start":9595.209,"end":9610.135,"text":"那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範"},{"start":9611.255,"end":9629.446,"text":"那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的"},{"start":9630.326,"end":9653.36,"text":"對 那個時候我也在現場因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土"},{"start":9654.561,"end":9666.715,"text":"附土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有附土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規那好謝謝部長"},{"start":9669.258,"end":9679.862,"text":"那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水"},{"start":9684.483,"end":9706.921,"text":"或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考"},{"start":9707.761,"end":9736.101,"text":"包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘因為這個東西經過這個組有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料"},{"start":9736.101,"end":9756.37,"text":"好 那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好 所以請這個部長可以把這個建議帶回去研議對 這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入"},{"start":9757.631,"end":9771.064,"text":"這個引導不住的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來"},{"start":9772.385,"end":9792.692,"text":"環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展"},{"start":9793.812,"end":9817.021,"text":"所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增所以部長是不是也同意因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊"},{"start":9820.302,"end":9845.492,"text":"那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為它禁止使用廚餘的時候它會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當它在禁止的這段時間"},{"start":9847.073,"end":9870.289,"text":"鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行"},{"start":9872.17,"end":9889.61,"text":"那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場那部長有瞭解這個問題的主因嗎"},{"start":9891.412,"end":9912.051,"text":"我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別有一個平台"},{"start":9914.273,"end":9934.012,"text":"我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解"},{"start":9934.392,"end":9958.103,"text":"如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦"},{"start":9958.763,"end":9975.808,"text":"那所以這個部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%或彰化肉圓店停業10天如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對譬如說相關需求真正需要的比如團山業者 自助餐 賣場優先供應"},{"start":9977.928,"end":9996.317,"text":"我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分"},{"start":9997.117,"end":10013.053,"text":"那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議我們工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的"},{"start":10015.075,"end":10042.577,"text":"本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂 亂抬價啦啊這個部分我想我們會來是 所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小小吃店相關的他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長"},{"start":10043.562,"end":10067.312,"text":"部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個廚餘真主申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方"},{"start":10070.497,"end":10088.129,"text":"這個我們有一個表齁這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查"},{"start":10089.87,"end":10106.319,"text":"那所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛所以你們的媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實那就會依照廢棄法的處理對嘛所以我就很清楚的問你他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實他沒有上傳你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎"},{"start":10107.796,"end":10117.923,"text":"基本上這個是他要爭主他就一定要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有爭主"},{"start":10124.127,"end":10138.437,"text":"對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛"},{"start":10139.077,"end":10161.772,"text":"剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理"},{"start":10162.392,"end":10186.318,"text":"因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分布在全台灣各個縣市"},{"start":10187.959,"end":10204.551,"text":"對那你現在變成是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎"},{"start":10205.211,"end":10229.733,"text":"他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去"},{"start":10230.373,"end":10253.906,"text":"那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦我有看到那個表格做好一個比較那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做的比較弱一點有些縣市喔那很多個縣市嗎"},{"start":10256.892,"end":10267.474,"text":"我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞"},{"start":10269.895,"end":10296.204,"text":"部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程"},{"start":10296.784,"end":10319.924,"text":"中央有一個法則 如果有一個強制令 胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事 稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查 這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候 你有沒有更好的集中管理方式"},{"start":10320.885,"end":10335.317,"text":"今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施"},{"start":10337.334,"end":10362.974,"text":"委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛"},{"start":10363.955,"end":10386.12,"text":"林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全"},{"start":10386.9,"end":10404.401,"text":"如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個"},{"start":10405.662,"end":10423.856,"text":"強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用"},{"start":10424.797,"end":10448.267,"text":"長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這一塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是"},{"start":10454.15,"end":10459.495,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 謝謝廖長昭委 謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂 黃委員來做選打謝謝主席 我們先請彭部長來 再請彭部長"},{"start":10476.549,"end":10504.644,"text":"黃國元好部長好部長從這幾天大家一直在關心就是說這個非洲豬瘟的事情那我也看到就是說昨天這個養豬就是工會這邊的這個不論是各縣市的工會養豬協會或者是全國聯合會他們也共同來立法院這邊來陳情那其中有一部分我想請教部長就是說"},{"start":10506.265,"end":10530.761,"text":"我們既然目前雖然現在因為產生非洲豬瘟所以目前是全部禁止這個廚餘養豬那未來未來是不是有可能就是說到底這個廚餘是要繼續來養豬或者是要做其他的堆肥或者是這個豔陽發酵或是做其他的這種"},{"start":10533.424,"end":10548.662,"text":"这个干燥之后然后也可以再做其他的这个再利用所以我希望就是说部长针对这一部分真的中央真的要好好去思考一下那既然就是说非洲猪瘟在台中这边已经产生了"},{"start":10549.062,"end":10574.745,"text":"那我覺得看到廚餘前幾天我看到那個台中市把廚餘全部倒到那個坑裡面其實大家覺得怎麼還是用這樣的方式去處理這個廚餘那之前我在當招委的時候跟那個我們有排到地方去看用黑水盲去處理廚餘那也另外一方面就是說我們廚餘也可以乾燥之後"},{"start":10575.726,"end":10594.848,"text":"乾燥之後然後又可以當成飼料就是類似這樣的一個狀況那未來我不知道說環境部針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理或怎麼去精進要不然如果說每天產生的廚餘這麼多那如果照現在這個狀況還是用掩埋的其實對整個環境是惡度傷害"},{"start":10595.829,"end":10618.638,"text":"是不是請部長先回答這個關於這個黑水盲啊或是肥料或是各種的這個生殖能其實他我們現在其實其實我們在之前就有一些想法希望鼓勵這個這個產業可以發展起來解決我們的垃圾還有廚餘的問題所以的確我們現在兩個階段一個短期間內的短時間的去化第二個呢就是在這個15天或是未來"},{"start":10619.258,"end":10643.307,"text":"如何去处理这个厨余我们的确是在思考已经在讨论密集的在讨论这个问题不过因为我们现在都在忙这个去化短时间的所以那个可能要再一点点的时间但是也跟委员报告因为我们过去都是靠养猪然后来处理我们这个厨余所以它的成本是很低的未来如果变成黑水盲或是说生殖能等等那个就会变成一个成本了"},{"start":10643.647,"end":10662.74,"text":"所以這個社會的接受度或是整個社會的體系整個生態系有沒有辦法完成這個是我們現在也在評估的點另外就是說這些廚餘因為都湯湯水水有沒有可能先用脫水的方式先脫水方式然後先去處理或是先乾燥我不知道說你們未來要怎麼去處理"},{"start":10663.761,"end":10686.656,"text":"所以我覺得說這個其實對整個環境我那天看到整個用掩埋的方式那都是湯湯水水那對我們的整個環境不會有二度傷害嗎對 包委員那個湯湯水水是不好所以我們一直在一開始就鼓勵各縣市環保局一起來鼓勵民眾能夠先立竿是先立竿來 我們再副署長是"},{"start":10687.697,"end":10707.699,"text":"跟委員報告我們補助各縣市的處理設施處理處理設施它在前面都有一個破碎拖水設備誠如委員講的這個灘灘水水太多對後面的堆毀效果是不好的所以我們有補助地方做破碎拖水設備那我看到台中市政府"},{"start":10709.194,"end":10724.619,"text":"一車一車的這樣往那個坑裡面倒我都覺得他到底有沒有先把這個湯湯水水的東西把它瀝乾我覺得後續可能你們要再去監測整個這幾個地方未來現在是一個垃圾坑未來可能會變成一個這個廚餘山"},{"start":10727.7,"end":10746.512,"text":"那當然我剛剛有看到新聞就是說台中市政府有先進就是說再把廚餘再往那個坑裡面去倒那後續我覺得說應該環境部應該也可以去協調其他縣市如果他們還有餘裕的話那個處理廚餘還有能力的話是不是也要來協助其他縣市這個"},{"start":10749.614,"end":10770.925,"text":"可以来一同处理现在目前最急迫的这个厨余的这个问题是不是可以请环境部一起来协助好 谢谢韦其实台中的这个事情其实从礼拜天我们一直关注到现在我特别因为它的这个堆肥跟掩埋它的方式比较不符合我们环境部在这一次这个定下的一个指引"},{"start":10771.485,"end":10798.631,"text":"所以他們也從善如流遵照我們的意見在這兩天也做出改善昨天我們也派人去他的四個野脈廠去做他也進行了一個顯著的修正我也特別請我們的環管署署長主動質疑環保局局長說如果台中需要幫忙的話我們環境部可以來協助是不是其他縣市可以調度雖然其他縣市壓力也很大但是我們發揮這個同島一命的精神協助來處理的確我們主動的有表達這樣的意思"},{"start":10799.572,"end":10820.449,"text":"我們希望就是說環境部這邊應該要來協助另外就是說大家關心的就是說這個豬農他沒有上傳一些真主的一些照片或資料當時台中市政府說沒有罰則可是我們環境部說可以用廢清法去處罰所以我是覺得說"},{"start":10822.33,"end":10837.599,"text":"如果確實他們沒有把這個資料上傳的話那真的是違法那有什麼樣的方式那如果說照台中市來講就是說這個沒有上傳也不違法那你要怎麼去後面後續再去精進"},{"start":10839.14,"end":10864.449,"text":"當然就是說未來如果你還要再用廚餘去養豬的話就會有衍生這樣的問題那未來如果沒有廚餘再進到這個養豬場那就不會有類似這個狀況所以我希望就是說不論是環境部或者是農業部真的事情已經發生了那我們未來要怎麼去改進去精進我覺得這個是你們現在要去趕快去釐清的"},{"start":10865.149,"end":10879.576,"text":"未來在這個11月7號好像11月7號就可以這個肉品市場就可以拍賣這個豬隻然後目前他們是這樣子說那如果是11月7號可以拍賣可以開始這個豬隻可以運載"},{"start":10883.979,"end":10898.871,"text":"這個運來運去的話或者是拍賣的話以後我們的傳統市場或者是我們的市場就可以再買到豬肉我覺得說類似這樣的問題真的要趕快去解決另外我想請教農業部的部長就是說喂 好"},{"start":10908.052,"end":10926.45,"text":"部長我想請教就是說現在我們這個豬農現在我們講就是說你剛講的不論是白豬黑豬都可以用廚餘來養豬那就是說要怎麼去防堵這個疫情的發生最主要就是要珍珍珠"},{"start":10926.69,"end":10946.731,"text":"可能就是說要珍珠可能要幾度然後要多少時間才會將這個病毒殺死那未來就是如果還要繼續廚餘養豬的話我不知道說你們到底會禁多久你們這個禁止廚餘養豬你們到底會禁多久"},{"start":10948.572,"end":10958.276,"text":"先跟我們說明我們現在做兩樣錯誤就是禁運禁宅另外一個禁止廚餘養豬禁運禁宅會等到我們專家會確認乾淨的時候就會解開廚餘的部分"},{"start":10963.158,"end":10990.872,"text":"還要多一道手續因為現在都沒有辦法進到養豬場裡面去做檢查所以除以養豬的部分我們第一個要先確認他的所有的蒸煮設備是屬於安全的屬於可以去做管理的剛才委員也特別強調落實蒸煮還有落實我們的雞茶這兩個東西要扣在一起以後確定他不會再有這樣的一個遺漏的時候我們才會再再度開放"},{"start":10991.272,"end":11014.424,"text":"部長我想請教因為現在除了有養好幾百頭豬的好幾千頭豬的也有那一種幾十頭的可能十幾頭二十幾頭的這一種比較小小廠的這種養豬場那你怎麼去你怎麼去管理這些這麼小的小廠的這種養豬場有的才養十幾頭那他原本就是用那個珍珠"},{"start":11015.584,"end":11039.113,"text":"就是7這個廚餘嘛200頭我們現在齁就是廚餘不能養豬對但是廚餘要養豬的時候有一些條件你才能夠用廚餘養豬就是200頭以上的然後你有蒸煮設備蒸煮設備要90度C一個小時的蒸煮你才能夠養豬那這個部分就在環境部的這個檢查小那個那個蒸煮的條件有規範那未來如果說這種"},{"start":11040.894,"end":11069.129,"text":"我相信部長你也知道有一些鄭咖 鄭咖偉後院養的這個這個是我們是也會跟地方政府或是什麼去聯合稽查以前早期可能有現在比較沒有因為在家裡養豬鄉下地方其實現在也不像那麼空曠了所以只要有人養豬的時候那個豬叫聲或什麼很容易造成一些民眾的檢舉所以這種後院自己養豬的情況會已經比較少了但是我們也會落實這些稽查"},{"start":11070.069,"end":11087.339,"text":"是就是說鄉下地方可能比較空曠有的他還是會零星養豬那他有的就真的就是用廚餘去飼養所以類似這個狀況我們也希望就是說地方政府也要這個確實去稽查那不然其實這個也是一個破口"},{"start":11087.999,"end":11115.501,"text":"對 這個就是一個非常重要就是廚醫本身養豬不是壞事你只要落實我們的徵主條件落實我們的稽查那就沒什麼問題是 好 那部長我再請教就是說我們現在的這個獸醫的這個制度其實有很多新的這個畜牧場他可能在剛開始申請的時候他會有特醫的這個特約的獸醫師那也許特約一年或兩年好 特約時間過了之後可能就沒有"},{"start":11116.081,"end":11138.515,"text":"就這個受益師可能就特約就沒有了嘛那這個也是一個破口這也會變成一個破口就是說原本這個養豬場他有特約可能為了就是說檢查或者是為了申請那這個時間過了之後沒這個特約的受益師那我們也看到就是說有的有特約他可能一年就是說給這個受益師幾千塊"},{"start":11141.196,"end":11169.514,"text":"我不知道就是特約的這個費用這個費用真的很少那所以我覺得說這個部分未來我們環境部我們這個農業部要怎麼去處理這個受益師的這個區塊我想非常謝謝委員的提醒在這次疫調的過程在這次我們防疫的過程中我們也發現到類似這樣的一個現象那比較大廠的部分他有一個專業的受益師但是有一些中小廠的部分他用特約受益師他也不是每天來上班的方式"},{"start":11171.843,"end":11199.517,"text":"久了以後可能每個豬農認為自己自己都可以當醫生了所以用到這個特別醫生可能會頻率少所以我覺得這個東西我們一定要重新建立一個很完整的一個機制包括特約收益師跟跟畜牧場的關係包括他的價格的合理化有沒有他的價格合理化我想這個東西我們在疫調的過程看到一些問題我們都把它記錄下來那也謝謝委員提醒我們這個部分我想在疫情比較稍緩的時候我們就會來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":11201.438,"end":11222.754,"text":"我們當然就是希望就是說這個疫情能夠得到控制那獸醫師其實一個非常重要我們也看到這個台中這個場獸醫師他到底有沒有到現場去看或者是直接用電話直接投藥或者是用什麼樣的方式所以就會讓人家覺得說那這個獸醫師的這個制度確實也出現了一些問題"},{"start":11224.155,"end":11245.492,"text":"對 那有關於這個部分因為現在疫調還在調查過程中我不做任何的評論但是我們的目標就是找到可能的來源然後也藉由這個機會去了解我們過去在整個防疫的系統裡面有哪一些必須要改進的那我們要趁這個機會能夠改進了以後我想我們才能夠去抵擋下一波的一個問題"},{"start":11246.212,"end":11265.308,"text":"好 那我们希望就是说要去检讨落实受益师的这个制度那另外就是说也让这些受益师愿意留在地方当然就是说刚刚部长有特别提到就是说我们有受益不开业的这个奖金那当然这个也是一个鼓励让他们留在这个场域里面工作那"},{"start":11266.149,"end":11281.207,"text":"應該也要再去討論一下到底這個跟畜牧場的這個合約到底他的這個價格到底是合理或不合理我覺得這應該 制度應該也要再去檢討一下我們一起回來檢討 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 請回接下來請陳怡委員來做宣達"},{"start":11297.642,"end":11307.154,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請農業部陳部長跟房間署主祕請陳部長還有房間署主祕"},{"start":11309.222,"end":11333.852,"text":"部長好 歡迎來到胃環委員會最近台中無期區發生了非洲豬瘟的案件兩位非常辛苦 部里同仁也都很辛苦謝謝你們的辛勞不過我們還是要回到今天的主題就是如何防止病毒的擴散先請教一下部長這次感染的原因跟途徑是不是已經確定了"},{"start":11334.552,"end":11349.757,"text":"我跟委員說明我們現在的感染原因現在還沒辦法確定但是因為整個疫調還在調查但是因為過去台灣都沒有非洲豬瘟所以這個首例一定是從境外進來的"},{"start":11350.797,"end":11368.805,"text":"但是境外進來的時候在我們整個防疫系統的設計就是有不同的層次境外我們盡可能去攔那一定有擺秘書的地方然後第二攔的就是在廚藝的部分一定要加強的這些監管就是徵阻然後再來就是"},{"start":11370.066,"end":11387.18,"text":"這些豬場本身的自主所以不同的防線才能夠有效的去防止這些豬瘟那這個非洲豬瘟的這個感染途徑基本上大概有六個來源那分別是這個食用的廚餘然後人車移動野豬"},{"start":11389.262,"end":11407.613,"text":"還有污染飼料還有接觸者的污染的衣服跟國際旅客我想請教兩位就是你們在進行疫情調查的時候能不能排除這家養豬場有確實隔離人跟車輛的接觸嗎"},{"start":11409.42,"end":11427.631,"text":"在現在的疫調就是台東市的疫調我們也經過專家會議給予一些建議跟協助包括這疫調的把表那相對的這些人員的部分特別是在案場的部分當初有些傾銷但是後來我們做我們第二輪會啟動所謂的環境的檢測嘛"},{"start":11429.533,"end":11449.251,"text":"那發現說這個案場的環境檢測還是有採到這個陽性的反應表示說那個傾銷不落實所以這個部分我們也積極的跟不管是所有的疫調人員或相關的單位還有人員有可能進出了傳播因為接觸了傳播所以這個東西都還在疫調過程中的釐清的一個階段"},{"start":11449.952,"end":11462.442,"text":"所以現在也沒有辦法說對什麼樣的人對案場裡面的人跟車輛對 現在目前還沒辦法疫調過程中還沒辦法確定對 沒辦法做隔離其實他們可能也已經趴趴照了"},{"start":11464.5,"end":11490.046,"text":"应该没有因为这一次的案例他的养猪场的投诉相对的比较少然后人员相对的也比较单纯一点但是不管他少或单纯他的足迹的追踪跟他的那些关联场我们都一一排查在第一轮里面看起来没有我举个例子就是说那边有没有刚回国的家人或者外籍劳工可能接触到的猪只"},{"start":11490.805,"end":11514.73,"text":"初步的疫調是沒有但是我們我覺得這個東西都要做一些確認對 我想再確認再確認是很重要的因為根據媒體的報導即使經過消毒那還是在養殖場內剛剛部長也講找到這個DNA的病毒跟核酸那病毒的這個頑抗是令人很吃驚的我們看一下那個簡報"},{"start":11516.69,"end":11534.802,"text":"光看這個冷凍豬肉這病毒竟然還可以存活到1000天將近三年之久那如果是這樣的話可能廚餘或飼料還有病毒那你們有沒有採檢就是說飼料或廚餘然後發現到病毒呢"},{"start":11535.262,"end":11559.03,"text":"我們現在所有可能的就是跟這個案場有關的關聯場或者是他的移動的車輛那包括他這些豬送到批發市場的所有的環境採檢都是陰性的並沒有發現只有在案例場做第二輪的檢測的時候還是發現特別是在殺豬的這個屠宰的地方"},{"start":11559.89,"end":11578.968,"text":"跟他的不是就是扑殺的地方有發現到這些病毒的陽性那表示他的清消不確實我們已經要求了我來請教一個就是提一個假設性的問題那因為國際旅客也可能是一個感染的途徑"},{"start":11580.454,"end":11598.143,"text":"如果一個人就是說在別的國家吃了感染的食物然後下午來到台灣然後接觸到豬隻有沒有可能引起這一次的事件特別是在3到19天潛伏期內因為你們的疫調有沒有可能說漏掉這樣的疑慮"},{"start":11599.315,"end":11612.474,"text":"第一个非洲之瘟不是人序公共传染病人不会接受不会感染变成潜伏的症状这个是非常重要的但有没有可能就是带着这个"},{"start":11613.277,"end":11634.72,"text":"带着这个病毒他如果他的衣服就是有进到这种他们的畜牧场那就有非常高的机会进来了以后又到我们自己的畜牧场所以在这个机制上面其实我们过去的防疫就一直告诉我们的事主就是禁止就是到别的国家的畜牧场"},{"start":11635.941,"end":11643.587,"text":"這個是一直去那國內的豬農大概有這樣子一個觀念那相對他們也會預防就是一些其他的同業進到他們的養豬場"},{"start":11646.66,"end":11668.708,"text":"我想因為請教這麼多問題主要是說我想大家都了解就是說確認了這個感染的途徑或者是污染源那就是擬定防治病毒擴散的這個最首要的一個工作那即使沒有辦法確認我們起碼可以用排除的方式排除掉幾個可能性那就可以限縮這個防疫的範圍來專注其他的這個因素"},{"start":11675.131,"end":11696.845,"text":"我想這個部分如果有需要的話本席也是建議就是說或許可以再多調查因為剛剛部長特別提到的接觸的風險我想人力的部分大家可以再做一下調度期許也可以順利找到這次感染的途徑跟原因"},{"start":11697.625,"end":11714.017,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那我在工作會議的時候我也只是我們部裡面因為我們部裡面有相當多的單位有獸醫師也會協助這次的一個調查那比較重要的是我們希望我們在跟時間賽跑所以這個疫調如果還有很多釐清的時候釐清的速度太慢的話"},{"start":11715.287,"end":11733.341,"text":"我們就怕萬一有一些盲點我們沒有去查到而這些盲點可能就是已經移到外面去我們不知道所以我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們會更積極的去針對台東案場的這些疫調如果還有疑義的話儘速去釐清好 謝謝部長要請回座那麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":11739.999,"end":11762.236,"text":"部長好我想今天的題目看起來好像比較偏重就是說我們大家在討論廚餘也會擔心在沒有辦法排除這個原因之下有幾個問題想要請教這家養殖場的廚餘是不是來自於你們清潔隊廚餘回收所提供"},{"start":11763.138,"end":11775.514,"text":"目前來看是那也報告委員我們會配合農業部我們今天應該會有一些配合去做疫調的工作是那為什麼就是如果養殖場有加熱的話人會有存活的病毒"},{"start":11776.565,"end":11794.465,"text":"應該是有按照這個規定是90度以上一個小時就沒有這個病毒的存在但是我們可能按照他的申報的紀錄很有可能是這個真主不確實也有可能這樣的原因造成所以你們平常就是說在提供廚藝的同時有就是加強宣導如何有效的加熱檢測嗎"},{"start":11795.946,"end":11823.206,"text":"就是說我們有一個申報系統當然它那個是一個輔助工具它如果沒有按時申報因為申報都要有溫度計在旁邊然後我們也知道它的日期在什麼時候如果它沒有申報不確實有蠟的話下個月我們就會發文給環保局要去集合因為看起來就是說目前台灣狀況是比較緊張一點這樣子比較消極的一種處理方式我覺得可能在短期內我們可以稍微"},{"start":11823.666,"end":11846.263,"text":"更积极的对有效积极的来来宣导那我们还有就是是不是还有其他的这个养猪场来使用你们提供的厨余有总共400多家他是你说无期的养猪场就国内国内其他的养猪场"},{"start":11847.22,"end":11875.96,"text":"435家所以这个部分我想也应该要一并加强宣导这个住址的安全使用处理的资讯是因为我们现在还有5000多家养殖场没有感染就是说建议你们真的也是跟时间赛跑赶快去宣导甚至说要补贴这个低利贷款加热设备的购置有些小型的养殖户因为你们如果有些这个以200头做一个标准其实"},{"start":11876.781,"end":11896.047,"text":"其實我們台東很多都沒有到200頭那自己收集廚餘來養豬如果可以的話也請你們提供必要的協助那特別是這個南部東部的地區的這個養殖個體戶雖然有時候這個地方政府可能進"},{"start":11896.807,"end":11911.662,"text":"禁止这个厨余养猪但是有很多的个体户或小型他们还是会有这样的情形所以这个部分我想在台湾厨余的这个利用它是流动而且它是跨线式的所以不分使用"},{"start":11912.322,"end":11926.839,"text":"那政府收集的或者是自己去收集的這個廚餘那也沒有分這個大型專業養豬場或小型的個體戶只要有使用廚餘透過這個人車的移動都有可能造成這個防疫的破口"},{"start":11927.239,"end":11947.911,"text":"所以環境部應該透過你們比較就是更有效的這個政策工具來協助業者讓廚餘更安全的被使用所以特別是這個養豬的這個養豬場的珍珠廚餘用在這個飼料上都需要經過地方環保這個環保主管機關來核可的這個使用特定的這個設備珍珠"},{"start":11949.731,"end":11967.288,"text":"並且要受到政府的督導監管所以我不知道提這個意見部長認不認同委員認同我們會來研究因為農業部他們規定是200頭以上的豬才可以用廚餘珍珠至於說低於這個的話目前不行但是未來或許有一些集中珍珠廠國內使用豬的習慣"},{"start":11970.911,"end":11992.282,"text":"跟養殖的情況還是有關係所以我想這個就不要不要特別再去做這樣的區分了好 委員我們會來研究一下對 那我想最後利用一點點時間因為8月7號我們跟本席跟莊瑞雄委員 王振旭委員還有林月琴委員我們到蘭嶼考察那關心了這個垃圾倉儲儲存場"},{"start":11994.003,"end":12009.874,"text":"還有這個資源回收物侵運的問題那這個儲存場因為要等這個縣府台東縣政府處理用地的問題所以我想我就先關心一下那個資源回收的部分侵運的部分因為蘭嶼它是離島所以它的這個垃圾"},{"start":12013.556,"end":12038.548,"text":"都特別需要船隻運到台灣來那成本相當高我想這不是鄉公所或縣政府可以負擔得起所以非常需要中央的協助那今年經費也剩下21萬元但是還有成山成堆的垃圾所以這個部分不曉得環境部這邊能夠提供什麼樣的協助因為上次講到目前為止進度如何"},{"start":12038.848,"end":12062.367,"text":"好報告委員這個這個案子我有特別關注喔那目前的程序是我們志願學院署已經審核然後還沒有簽到我這邊但是應該會有很好的消息也謝謝委員提出這樣的一個想法我們會照委員的建議來實施所以他目前經費的規模900多萬對沒有問題好那也拜託部長可以趕快蓋章好謝謝謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":12069.269,"end":12088.826,"text":"接下來請陳素慧委員來做選擇謝謝主席因為時間有關係我是不是可以請農業部陳部長跟環境部彭部長一起上台有請兩位部長不好意思"},{"start":12094.086,"end":12113.837,"text":"兩位部長早我們知道就是說在最近因為台中市某這個養豬場爆發了這個非洲豬瘟的疫情之後那我們也看到農業部非常迅速的就宣布了這個禁運禁載及禁廚餘的一個政策那這部分本席對這個政策也是給予農業部肯定"},{"start":12114.637,"end":12138.352,"text":"那因為我們看到這個儲雨之後衍生的一個問題就是儲雨的一個處理問題那在過去我們看到這個統計表是2024年的一個統計就是國內對於儲雨的一個利用就是有飼料化肥料化以及能源化以及其他這幾種途徑那其中飼料化就是高溫蒸煮後"},{"start":12138.832,"end":12141.295,"text":"來餵養豬隻就是佔了62.6%這個是一個非常高的比例所以在農業部宣布除以餵養豬隻之後這62.6%的處理我想可能就是一個非常棘手的問題"},{"start":12155.589,"end":12168.382,"text":"在目前這樣子的一個狀況其實地方有很多熱心的民眾就有提供一些意見包括我的選區田中政公所之前的員工他就說他們的公所在2019年就在實施黑水盲"},{"start":12172.486,"end":12192.707,"text":"做就是去化除雨的這樣子的一個方法然後效果也不錯可是我們看到黑水盲它的比例才1.2%所以不曉得說就這個去化的一個途徑目前如果政府要來推會有什麼法律上的限制就是說有沒有可能未來在這部分來強化"},{"start":12194.738,"end":12212.372,"text":"報告委員 這個黑水盲我也特別有去看過我們也認為它是未來循環經濟很好的方式因為它可以很多元的一個利用解決這個廚藝的問題所以我們政策上是鼓勵的目前我們也有一些專案的計畫在研究如何有一個更好的生態系幫助這個產業可以成長起來"},{"start":12213.783,"end":12233.738,"text":"在法令上我們目前會有阻礙嗎就是無需要解決的部分嗎黑水盲它的蟲蟲吃完了之後它到底以後可不可以當成飼料去餵雞或是說黑水盲它未來可以承承永續航空用油它這個怎麼處理所以量到底多少這個會牽涉到飼料管理法的部分嗎"},{"start":12235.619,"end":12262.029,"text":"我跟委員報告就是根據飼料管理法你要做肥料的話你可以當申請當肥料但是要經過申請肥料的時候你必須檢測相關的一個有沒有毒性有沒有肥效這個部分他不會因為你的來源不一樣就禁止所以這個部分會根據到黑水門本身作為肥料的利用效率那利用效率高的話他做肥料應該是沒問題的那這部分我們農業部會最近會有做一些積極的一個"},{"start":12263.739,"end":12286.98,"text":"我想黑水盲其實在我們農業部其實內部已經討論非常多了那最主要是它的利用效率是不是可以能夠達到一個就是生產用的因為一定要後端有市場前端去做的時候才有效果但我想我們會跟環境部積極來做那另外跟委員補充就是飼料做廚藝的時候它不一定是直接"},{"start":12288.081,"end":12313.122,"text":"我們台灣是用直接的生廚藥去蒸煮那其實廚藥也可以先經過飼料化本身變成液體肥料或是固體肥料再給那個那個豬隻吃所以它有很多的方式那這個部分我想我們在我們的國內我們農業部的研究專案會也在做這樣的研究那我後續的這些東西我希望能夠增加更多的多元化的利用那這樣的話那個壓力才不會那麼大"},{"start":12314.233,"end":12335.552,"text":"因為基層的相信也都非常的關心所以也都提供了一些意見那他們認為說這個黑水盲的方式非常好的話我們政府應該要積極的帶頭來推動才對那我們也看到嘉義縣他們也成立了這個儲雨全循環中心利用這個黑水盲來處理這個儲雨我相信這個應該是"},{"start":12336.753,"end":12341.759,"text":"我們也可以去觀摩之後在農業部或者是環境部這邊可以來協助在各縣市來推動接下來我想請問一下因為這次的"},{"start":12350.955,"end":12377.157,"text":"非洲豬瘟爆發的破口目前就是應該是推測是廚餘餵養的部分產生的嗎我想現在還沒辦法確認在疫調的過程中完整的疫調還沒有出來那說有可能因為除了廚餘以外還有包括接觸嘛就是人車的接觸或移動所以現在因為第一輪疫調看起來這個疫情就鎖在台中這個案場那相對的是一件好事"},{"start":12377.757,"end":12400.789,"text":"所以我們積極上還會去趕快把這些疫調本身的一些必須釐清的東西趕快釐清我們擔心的就是說裡面還有一些盲點不知道以後變成以後的破口所以這個完整的疫調出來以後才有機會去看到這些來源第二個部分就是疫調也同時讓我們知道我們現在的體制還有哪一些必須精進的地方那我們後續也會來精進"},{"start":12401.949,"end":12412.897,"text":"是 那就是對於這個廚餘的處理當然我們有一定的一個要求就是要蒸煮90度90度是一個小時一個小時以上那我們看到這個案場他對廚餘的處理就是後來發現說他有好幾個月都沒有上傳這個記錄了所以對於他是不是有確實照這個標準來處理廚餘也讓人家覺得說會是一個防疫的一個破口所以昨天那個"},{"start":12430.61,"end":12445.083,"text":"我們養豬協會的那個各縣市的理事長還有這個總會的潘理事長他們有來拜會黨團他們有提出建議說廚餘有沒有可能由中央來統一爭主後來供應使用這個部分"},{"start":12445.646,"end":12472.438,"text":"我跟委員報告現在有四個縣市九個中央處理廠在申請那已經在營運的是苗栗的那個廠那基本上我們以農業部的立場來講如果這些珍珠廠是可以提供給我們的廚藝養豬戶而養豬戶也願意接受的時候我們是能夠給予支持但是有個重點就是我們在查訪的過程中也發現說大部分的廚藝養豬戶"},{"start":12473.979,"end":12487.724,"text":"都是認為自己組的最安心但是這個可能要需要溝通然後也要讓他知道中央處理廠這個這個徵組是不是能夠達到他們放心的角度這個蠻重要的所以我們想我們會來討論跟環境部一起來討論這樣的一個議題好"},{"start":12490.885,"end":12511.518,"text":"那昨天潘總會長又也提到了一個問題就是這個台中儲育海這種狀況真的是令人觸目驚心潘總會長說像他這樣露天的這樣子的話如果說有鳥類去著食的話會不會又變成病菌的一個傳染的一個途徑會不會又造成是防疫的破口"},{"start":12512.238,"end":12538.691,"text":"對 報告委員因為這個從這個禮拜天開始我們就注意到這個問題包含院長都很關心所以我們環境部呢從禮拜天還有昨天都有派人去現場的去視察那當然啦他們因為我們有一個堆肥的規定野賣場的一個規定他們呢很多是還沒有辦法符合他們這樣子是有符合規定的嗎有改進的空間所以他們也從善如流部長講得太含蓄了吧有改進的空間就是不合規定吧"},{"start":12539.532,"end":12553.469,"text":"然後他們現在昨天已經兩個我們看了四個場兩個場已經開始覆土了因為覆土有一定的規定0.5公尺深然後再30公分的覆土然後就不要讓動物跑來吃那這樣台中市政府算不算帶頭違法"},{"start":12555.149,"end":12581.627,"text":"我們是希望他們可以做得更好那目前他們另外兩個像這樣的這個處於海的部分他們也承諾今天就會開始進行復讀然後未來也不會做這樣的事情會送到野脈場去是好那因為這個防疫真的就視同作戰真的每一個部分每一個環節真的都是要非常的嚴謹以對不能夠讓這就是我們一定要嚴正以待把這個病情跟他防堵下來"},{"start":12582.647,"end":12608.802,"text":"好謝謝那謝謝兩位部長辛苦了謝謝那個台東監獄我們那個應該是太原那個武陵監獄那邊他們據說都有也是完全廚餘完全都是用黑水盲處理效果好像還不錯有空可以去看看好我們接下來請謝龍介委員質詢"},{"start":12625.074,"end":12647.075,"text":"主席 我請兩位補充好 請兩位部長委員好補充好 兩位好這般的噴漆滴是很嚴肅的問題 不能再稍微提了風壓本來就是中庸的一款"},{"start":12648.769,"end":12668.755,"text":"你看蘇貞昌一定有同期期什麼樣的態度,對不對?他自己去到第一線,要放棄破口。那麼今天問題發生,中央地方,如果沒有一條心就對了,或專門擴大台灣,用第三頁,恐怕會參不領導。"},{"start":12671.328,"end":12691.819,"text":"我今天想你探討這個池地的問題 因為噴水後沒辦法企劃所以黃金寶有補助地方 或這個噴來做堆備的 更有優勢你不要叫地方的所理來騙你"},{"start":12693.294,"end":12699.316,"text":"父的地方說 你看我們這裡已經做得很好 台中我們這樣 噴的後備到 這才是事實噴的企劃 我請教兩位部長 日本怎麼做"},{"start":12710.603,"end":12734.592,"text":"三十年前 日本就已經把噴化作治療人家噴不是只有咖喱而已 他的噴走到滾來治療是四十五年前的事情一直到三十五年前 他感覺這種包括靠地藥 包括肥皂滴汁"},{"start":12735.612,"end":12753.929,"text":"農有可能會減量,所以已經不再用我們地農的,把它噴好、滾好,來吃地了。但是地農沒有那個能力,它生業的薪金也沒有那個能力,來把它噴,做工業給它處理。"},{"start":12756.072,"end":12756.413,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":12771.772,"end":12791.288,"text":"噴在池底的時候 除了說一般的廚餘他還是要跟一般植物性的料源去混合你說的日本 日本的廚餘不是跟我們台灣的廚餘一樣他有分一些植物性的跟有動物性的 他們開始就把它分開了噴在收得的時候"},{"start":12793.009,"end":12806.692,"text":"對著這個擔搭 再來對餐廳 其實是特殊的碰點譬如說全台灣現在生態餐廳很多 市場的 還有這個烘焙業 種種不一樣的年老 把這個噴了 它不是淡淡的 這樣煮煮的就有低價"},{"start":12817.85,"end":12845.294,"text":"它還要再添加 就是說以工業化的設備大規模 譬如說有汽滴在國管區 您想辦法補助一下然後呢 我們的用地的產業可以升級它不但把這份修理的消毒以外 高溫的消毒 還要添加營養劑甚至添加蛋白質 之後呢 它造成乾燥料的肥料"},{"start":12846.917,"end":12855.073,"text":"這個肥料沒有滴溶 雖然比它脂粉 成分比較高一層但是比它吃全脂料 成分比較低 保證是不是這樣"},{"start":12856.203,"end":12864.246,"text":"對 他現在有一個機器 我也有去了解大概6500萬一天可以做25噸但是像委員說的 你頭上的廚藝要分類這環境不對嘛 不是分類是這樣嘛 你要做企劃之後 要做後備 要做後備是沒工的嘛 這就平常你才要用心啦"},{"start":12881.397,"end":12898.792,"text":"您有什麼 因為你目前我看是你沒有具體的辦法沒有 我們還是這個真主的部分呢給豬吃飼料的部分還是農業部這邊處理那我們是當然是希望未來能夠更有效的去划處理的收集是你們的業務啦是就是說對館頭要去處理盆的時候就應該要做初級分類啦這樣後面農業部的身分才可以講解啦"},{"start":12908.3,"end":12924.994,"text":"以身分鋼筋療養做出來的品質比較有體性 比較有辦法讓整個腰底、三脊、蹄膿可以接受你這款的治療啦我講的意思是這樣 不然你覺得是怎樣 你們有經歷這個做法嗎"},{"start":12927.216,"end":12939.285,"text":"感謝委員 建議 你剛才說的 我們陣營已經有在研究 在做你們研究幾檔啊 你知道嗎我們已經 日本就做30幾檔我們只有在那裡 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀這樣拿20幾檔 我跟你說 要放棄身分 要控制他們的身分當然對基隆來說 我身分如何如何 但是安全是沒辦法的"},{"start":12955.529,"end":12975.274,"text":"所以如果是這套的辦法,我們聯邦可以共同來福德地方政府,真真正正可以用這個高溫殺菌抗藥法,看守療養、行為、治理、新的治療。當然這個添加經過添加的過程,跟製造的過程,有增加的成本。"},{"start":12977.995,"end":12984.325,"text":"所以政府要補助到什麼程度 那麼是要負責夾價來中枢而且是地方政府通過管理 療養 通過緩衝才可以用到新的治療 你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":12993.424,"end":13019.351,"text":"我基本上暫時 委員在說的 就是說我們長久的時候要把我們的廚餘變成用工業的手段變成飼料啦這個飼料的部分 第一點就是說要有業者願意做業者願意做就是說 豬農本身要可以用啦所以這個部分 我們已經把它變成一個我們在討論的方案之一啦因為廚餘的再利用的部分 特別是給豬吃的時候"},{"start":13021.071,"end":13034.16,"text":"有很一種的 你如果爭主你如果說不可能這樣我們在討論這個方案就是已經沒有爭主的問題了嘛但是不是一定要在那邊行公義喔我們的爭主才能夠退場這個是有它的一些過渡期 我知道嘛就是說現在沒有在討論爭主 我覺得新的方向 新的做法我們環境部跟農業部可以合作跟地方來做這個平坡我講的意思可能比較清楚吧"},{"start":13050.391,"end":13074.088,"text":"這個我們有在研議啦因為我們也在看國外有幾個新的到底哪一個是適合台灣未來的發展的確是委員你說的沒錯 要細分類因為現在像餐廳其實它有不一樣的餐廳的形態事業的形態也要做好一個分別沒關係啦 你一陣子可以有一個粗暴的兵局報告可行性的兵局委員 因為現在這位很忙他我上禮拜接到電話一直忙到現在所以這位三個位好不好沒關係 OK半天也沒關係 因為怎樣"},{"start":13079.371,"end":13082.294,"text":"我之前在經濟委員會說日本已經有成功的機器如果要授權我都願意直接授權進來"},{"start":13103.274,"end":13104.015,"text":"好 謝謝這麼恭敬的敬禮"},{"start":13136.903,"end":13151.881,"text":"好那個接下來請王洪威委員質詢他有在中間謝謝主席那我請兩位部長環境部部長跟我們農業部部長"},{"start":13157.355,"end":13172.26,"text":"委員好兩位部長好 辛苦因為現在的防疫確實都急如新火大家非常關心的就是到底要不要全面禁止用廚餘來養豬最近討論很多之前大家討論過2018年的時候當時的張立善縣長 榆林縣長"},{"start":13181.603,"end":13210.703,"text":"獨排眾議當時他的其實他的壓力非常非常大來自於中央不支持而且呢其實這個豬農也未必支持因為認為這個成本提高當時他讓雲林縣全面禁止廚餘來養豬現在事後證明他是對的那麼當時我們的賴總統是院長他打臉張立善而且他說這是影響這個豬瘟的防疫工作"},{"start":13211.443,"end":13231.695,"text":"但是其實大家一致的認為怎麼樣能夠降低廚餘去養豬的這樣的一個比例其實如果看到從107年到現在來說老師說有關這一部分我們事實上是沒有作為的對不起 我們把它看到"},{"start":13232.395,"end":13254.133,"text":"就是我們看一下一個資料就是今年家戶的廚餘再利用方式的一個趨勢圖最下面就是一個就是用廚餘來養豬的一個比例107年當時是60%沒有錯有逐年在降低但是到113年仍然有42.8%"},{"start":13255.994,"end":13271.564,"text":"也就是說這7年來其實我們在廚餘怎麼樣的再利用的部分這7年來是沒有作為我們從這個數字是可以看到的所以現在我們是暫時性的就是全面禁止廚餘養豬當時"},{"start":13275.006,"end":13292.226,"text":"的賴院長提到的就是很怕廚餘會流竄他說如果我們禁止廚餘養足那其他廚餘會流竄但是現在確實發生囉現在確實發生廚餘確實有在流竄那這兩天不是有屏東的這個畜牧場呢就"},{"start":13292.606,"end":13320.765,"text":"把它載到這個換外縣市的廚餘就換外縣市廚餘現在變成大家用跨縣市因為如果本自己的縣市沒有辦法去處理那尤其你們現在講台中台中處理不好啊怎麼弄之類那現在可能他不是在第一線台中現在是在風口浪尖上其他的縣市你難保其他縣市的處理方式會比台中市更好啊所以現在恐怕就有全台流竄的問題"},{"start":13322.006,"end":13330.731,"text":"所以我想請教我先請教彭部長這種出於現在可能全台流竄的問題你們有沒有注意到然後如何的防範"},{"start":13331.696,"end":13360.425,"text":"包委員 我們環境部跟各縣市的環保局有一個平台然後定期都會開會就這次的事情當然台中這次它的量能它的垃圾量能處理各方面就不夠所以我們今天我也特別請我們昨天就請我們的署長希望我們也可以伸出援手協助他們調度是不是跟別的縣市一起來合作因為這個廚藝處理現在有其他縣市答應跟台中市合作到目前為止因為台中並沒有提出它的需求"},{"start":13360.765,"end":13385.567,"text":"可是你不是说中央伸出援手吗我们也就是询问他嘛询问他要不要什么帮忙因为他的这个堆肥啊或是除那个掩埋的方式那部长你的评估啊你的评估现在不是只有台中禁止厨艺养猪其他县制也禁止嘛云林乐师他七年前他就禁止所以他做的比较好他已经还把他变成堆肥那他现在最近因为"},{"start":13386.448,"end":13414.609,"text":"又它本來有一些少量的廚藝它還可以賣到外面去但是現在呢又回流因為全線全台就在流竄啊所以它要去生產它那個堆肥的生產線因為它本來雲林是原來作別那它是因為它原來就在做可是其他縣市老實講我剛剛說因為我們現在是盯住台中但是不代表台中以外的縣市會做得比台中好您同不同意"},{"start":13415.597,"end":13439.252,"text":"同意但是我们现在都积极的跟他们在看目前是没有问题的可是我刚才讲就是已经发生了屏东的畜牧场就开始混外县市的厨余现在大家就开始混所以我的意思就是说您刚刚讲说中央牲畜援手非常好所以现在变成可能需要跨县市的来处理"},{"start":13440.132,"end":13460.03,"text":"但是你現在也沒有辦法我真的覺得以現階段你去問各縣市政府搞不好他不敢同意我過去我們在台北市後來我們才步入這位剛開始台北市因為當時焚化爐有一些餘裕可以去燒其他縣市的垃圾一開始"},{"start":13460.51,"end":13486.25,"text":"台北市是反對說為什麼我們的焚化廠要去燒外縣市的垃圾呢可是慢慢大家也是慢慢可以接受說其實這個台北市竟然焚化廠是有餘裕的我們可以協助外縣市來處理垃圾那以現階段全部大家其實我相信所有的養豬大縣都應該面臨到說這些廚藝如何去化不是只有台中 您同意吧"},{"start":13487.348,"end":13492.895,"text":"像台北市其實它的焚化爐餘溢還蠻多的但是它可以給各縣市的比例只有3%可是我的意思說別說我們養豬大戶嘉義 彰化還有台南 高雄其實都屏東 屏東最大"},{"start":13503.584,"end":13521.657,"text":"我認為他們現在也會面臨現通禁止廚餘我的廚餘要怎麼處理所以我想請問到目前為止到目前為止作為跨縣市的廚餘的去化跟處理現在你們有沒有一套辦法"},{"start":13522.217,"end":13544.618,"text":"包委員 有的 現在其實我們每天都在監控 甚至我們也跟有些縣市 它的清運的方式有些呢 因為過去是清運 是養豬的業者清運現在未來有一天改變 我們都在積極的在處理那目前短期間內 我說短期間內 針對這個最短期間是沒有問題的但是長時間我們還是希望說 未來對針對廚藝有一個更好的方式來處理"},{"start":13545.419,"end":13561.411,"text":"因為我這邊我也請教陳部長我希望說現在因為一剛剛開始發生總是會比較亂一些我這個出於的去處理那長期而言其實我們所收到的訊息大家都認為"},{"start":13563.103,"end":13585.425,"text":"就是在這個時候大家都感受到廚餘會帶來整個的防疫上的困難所以在長時間還是應該去做全面的去禁止廚餘養豬那麼部長這邊可不可以往這個方向去做研議到現在為止你們沒有鬆口嗎"},{"start":13586.426,"end":13612.869,"text":"對 我們第一個就是我們還是持續的去做廚餘轉型的部分那廚餘如果禁止我在這邊跟委員報告就是廚餘的大縣市第一個是新北跟屏東市有98場是最多的那再來就是桃園新竹縣台中市彰化縣這幾個都是養豬所以這幾個縣市你去問他們的時候他們就會有所保留但是以中央部會的立場來講"},{"start":13614.53,"end":13634.185,"text":"廚藝要養豬你一定要達到你要的一個必要的一個監管還有一個確保它的一個廚藝的安全但是我想我們跟環境部會講有沒有可能再把廚藝的養豬的這個再利用像剛才委員有講的把它變成工業化的飼料再來養豬那這個部分我們一定會積極的去做"},{"start":13635.185,"end":13652.606,"text":"我覺得這些工業化真的是必須的我認為雲林因為他我覺得他就是他做了7年我覺得雲林的這種做法其實是可以給其他因為雲林也是養豬大的牠的養豬頭數最多的對不對那我也不相信說他是全部用飼料他不用廚餘"},{"start":13654.128,"end":13667.987,"text":"但是他一定原來有廚餘他現在還有廚餘對不對那他的處理我現在講的是我們如果能夠把廚餘把它處理好處理好那當然就有助於我們去推動全面的禁止廚餘養豬"},{"start":13669.91,"end":13691.223,"text":"所以原理當它做了7年那7年我覺得可以到目前為止看起來它是成功的啊它是成功的我剛剛講說它現在還變成說那因為它的廚藝又回流回來了所以呢它就增加它的堆肥的生產線像老師說連我自己我最近看了我家裡本來沒有廚藝機我決定要去買一台廚藝機了"},{"start":13692.364,"end":13709.334,"text":"你知道嗎 我覺得要推廣就是說從家戶學校到餐廳那我覺得你們現在就可以推廣啊大家有這樣的認識大家有這樣意識到那當然你說那個院長講說大家把這個東西都吃下去什麼的當然會被人家刪小"},{"start":13710.034,"end":13731.749,"text":"可是如果別說我今天家戶我做出來我家戶就買一台廚餘機可以的話我學校也可以添置廚餘機我覺得我們在其他的政策不管在尤其你的學校或者有一些重點的地方你給他補貼也好或者給他一些什麼優惠也好這樣子來降低這個廚餘量"},{"start":13733.47,"end":13746.377,"text":"大家一起做比部長在那邊我也知道你們現在一定都在加班比你們坐在這邊可能會大家就是這種事應該是大家共同一起來的一個工作所以也希望委員去跟大家宣傳家裡有廚藝機是不錯的"},{"start":13748.638,"end":13764.667,"text":"那我也跟各位委員報告這個廚餘的堆肥的設施像雲林是一個特別的個案那當然有些縣市連珍珠也是其實它很容易變成地方的林壁設施那這個也希望大家能夠來瞭解我說你們三年只通過一家通過一家是這個合格的珍珠場"},{"start":13773.371,"end":13794.585,"text":"其他的就要靠這個養豬場一個一個去跟你通報所以我覺得你們其實來自於中央的真的還是有很多工作要做啦很多工作要做就是說我覺得七年前那個是錯失了一個時機雲林縣政府我現在回頭看我覺得雲林縣政府是那個"},{"start":13795.626,"end":13811.905,"text":"就是摒除所有的壓力去做那是很好的而漁林縣政府現在已經做出一個時機給大家看因為他的養豬戶數也很多那我也不相信他的廚藝會比別人個人的製造量我也不相信他會比其他縣市少那他怎麼做到的"},{"start":13812.506,"end":13829.681,"text":"對不對雲林可以做到那我相信其他縣市也都慢慢可以做到現在是起步嘛萬事起頭難好不好所以我還是在這邊還是正式的我們還是會推動全面禁止廚餘來養豬啊這才是一勞永逸的方式"},{"start":13829.881,"end":13845.841,"text":"不過我也提醒委員就是說我們也必須感謝很多的養豬業者幫我們去化這種廚餘不然這廚餘量很大那如果很多的餐廳這個廚餘量無法去化的話其實它未來都會變成是一個成本在那個地方那樣的對於社會的影響也必須考慮在裡面"},{"start":13846.181,"end":13874.662,"text":"我知道如果那麼容易啊如果那麼容易當時張立善一說我禁止全面禁止廚餘養豬那其他縣市通通都應該跟進啊對不對很多事情容易的事情好容易的事情大家都會去做就是不容易嘛好不好但是我覺得今天竟然發生這樣的事件而且大家就全部都得認知都是跟廚餘是有絕對的關係的時候我覺得可以做就去推動好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13877.904,"end":13901.472,"text":"謝謝黃委員的發言看起來應該全台要來響應這個購買廚藝機使用可以減量是是好也謝謝兩位部長的答詢下一位我們請徐副委員發言謝主席有請我們兩位部長請兩位部長"},{"start":13908.176,"end":13911.248,"text":"徐委員好兩位部長辛苦我想這個"},{"start":13913.342,"end":13939.106,"text":"今年5月我們跟陳部長我們在屏東這個舉辦了這個我們這個台灣是唯一亞洲唯一的這個三大豬病這個肺疫國的一個典禮那當我們就是很高興這樣子我們台灣的這個豬肉這個能夠還能夠外銷到國外讓我們的鄉親也可以吃到這個好吃的一個健康的一個豬肉但是很遺憾這次的台中的非洲豬的事件我想"},{"start":13939.726,"end":13954.776,"text":"不只造成我們這個養豬產業的一個停擺甚至連我們消費端我們屏東的肉圓 萬輪豬腳 彰化的控肉飯可能因為貨源也會受到這個衝擊影響所以我想今天兩位部長在這邊我想我們還是要正視一下這有幾個問題"},{"start":13956.917,"end":13981.081,"text":"昨天我們全國養豬協會的潘寧洲理事長他帶領全國的這個各縣市的養豬協會的理事長來陳情那當然目前針對這樣的一個15天之後他們當然我們現在希望這15天能夠把疫情能夠把它消滅掉然後能夠防堵這樣的一個破口出現但是他們也擔心這個後續這個豬價會崩盤的問題請教那個陳部長目前針對這部分"},{"start":13985.302,"end":14006.258,"text":"我知道部裡面有提出這個管制出租還有煤核冷凍業者收購這些政策那有沒有辦法針對這個保駕收購這個機制來做處理請部長答覆我們也曾經的去評估這些保駕收購的部分那因為現在目前如果我們非常順利的在15天之後能夠逐步解禁的時候那"},{"start":14007.279,"end":14027.681,"text":"我們要去消化的豬隻大概是35到39萬隻那35到39萬隻但是每一天人吃的量是一樣的啦所以變成說這些豬隻必須拉到冷凍庫去做一些凍除先調節一下做一個調節那這個調節如果完全由中央做"},{"start":14029.36,"end":14050.011,"text":"中央做的時候市面上缺的時候因為市面上的冷凍一些公司他也會進口豬肉所以變成說我們釋出的時候又更難去釋出所以我們現在是用煤盒就是給一些協助希望這些冷凍工會一起來收購然後我們的一些"},{"start":14050.971,"end":14078.733,"text":"補助的方案如果讓他覺得說不用再進口那相對的這些豬肉就有機會逐步的讓我們的國內消費者使用我知道當然目前我們先針對這個飼料補貼跟貸款的部分我們先給予第一階段的協助但是我想後續的部分包含你剛講的我們怎麼樣針對國內的產銷調解這一則然後冷鏈系統的建置也很重要這部分冷鏈系統是不是有在進行規劃"},{"start":14103.002,"end":14103.022,"text":"是"},{"start":14113.288,"end":14140.216,"text":"不是 因為距離這個禁運 禁宅的時間也存幾天而已這要加快進行啊不然到時候整個A出來那個真的是市場會很混亂我們了解這個時間的壓力但是我其實很希望能夠順利的能夠在這個時間裡面因為現在剛好正是前夫妻現在剛好正是前夫妻發病的時間所以我們現在的目的就是要防疫趕快去確認我們的場域是乾淨的"},{"start":14141.449,"end":14170.389,"text":"我想請教彭部長當然我們現在屏東我們也是養豬的一個大縣那當然剛剛有很多委員都提到這個廚餘去化的問題那當然這個過去就是一直爭論爭論不休啦那當然這個剛剛部長有提到這個養豬業者對於廚餘的去化也扮演一定功能的角色但是目前碰到這樣的一個問題後續部裡面針對這樣的一個去化的問題因為我自己本身也接到很多陳情包含學校的營養午餐包含餐廳"},{"start":14171.389,"end":14190.022,"text":"很多都沒人要修 他們很頭痛那你說要全部弄到屏東的這個焚化爐焚化爐本身就有一定的運作的能量那如果這樣子他們也會擔心造成處理進去之後會造成這個機械運作的一個問題這部分會遇到很多的一個困境部長怎麼去處理這個問題"},{"start":14190.782,"end":14211.596,"text":"好 包委員我們現在處理的調度短時間內的處理短時間內沒問題但是我們認為如果時間一拉長一定是一個很大的壓力所以這個部分例如說委員提到的這個未來如何再有一個更好的制度那我們的確正在研議當中那我們是希望是說我要特別這個場合就感謝這個養豬業者幫我們去化掉很多的廚餘"},{"start":14212.817,"end":14228.455,"text":"那未來的有幾個方向那我們現在會跟農業部來討論例如說共同珍珠或是說生殖能其實那個因為有些地方要推動這個東西都很好但是很容易被變成零幣設施那這個我們就要從全面的來規劃從循環經濟的角度來看這個問題"},{"start":14231.518,"end":14253.717,"text":"這個我們養豬業者也是在提這個事情就是說他們願意配合政策但是我們如果沒有一個明確的方向變成這個到處流竄這個也不能解決問題是沒錯那有沒有可能考慮像日本一樣成立這個集中的一個斟酌的模式有這個對謝謝委員的建議這個部分我們那個會跟那個主要是農業部主責那我們會跟農業部一起來協作來討論這個事情"},{"start":14255.859,"end":14270.936,"text":"那我想剛剛我也特別提到這個我們未來後續針對這個兩個部會 跨部會整變的一個部分那我要特別跟部長提到一個事情我自己本身家裡我也是很早就買廚藝機了我們媽媽自己在煎火煎菜"},{"start":14272.678,"end":14293.596,"text":"當作肥料那個效果真的很好啦那屏東縣政府今年也主動補助經費這個補助我們的鄉親來購買廚藝機也是很那個效果也很好而且他們也在加碼我想這個部長這個政策非常非常的好而且能夠幫幫忙家裡能夠做這樣一個去化的一個動作有沒有考慮編列經費來全民性的一個推廣"},{"start":14294.196,"end":14311.281,"text":"委員這個我們來研究一下但是因為現在我們的經費財化法過後之後要這個如何跟地方來合作這個要討論啦但是我是覺得這是一個方向我們可以來演繹因為我覺得能夠從這個地方去帶動多少都有對這個儲備量一定會有減少的一個效益"},{"start":14312.301,"end":14331.315,"text":"那最後我想 兩位部長 我想未來共同的努力的方向這個存一百的時間而已 真的要加快速度我想我們趕快讓這個產業恢復秩序 讓我們的消費端的鄉親也能夠趕快恢復 能夠吃到吃到那個好的地方也避免這樣一個市場崩盤的一個危機 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":14336.564,"end":14358.286,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員 謝謝兩位部長接下來請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請王正旭委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席好 謝謝有請彭部長來 請部長 彭部長"},{"start":14362.881,"end":14383.735,"text":"部長好 王委員好在還沒有請教部長之前剛好一直提到有關廚餘機事實上像大型的公務機關比如說立法院好了立法院如果有一部商用的廚餘機應該是大家會很高興不管是立法院或者是行政院甚至其他的"},{"start":14384.395,"end":14397.429,"text":"公務機關如果能夠適當的請這些部分來處理的話應該是可以讓大家集中在用餐以後這些處理能夠有好的地方來處理那這個祖密可以幫忙反映嗎"},{"start":14400.264,"end":14421.534,"text":"還是我們有其他的管道也報告委員上次那個有委員建議說我們的廁所不要衛生紙不能丟那我們就有來輔導了然後現在立法院可以衛生紙可以丟馬桶了那可能委員提出質疑我們就協助來辦理OK好太好了這樣的話我相信對於這個廚藝減量會有很大的幫助"},{"start":14423.795,"end":14440.447,"text":"所以今天就根據召委所排的主題來跟部長討論一下我相信今天已經講了非常非常的多不過希望也能夠有機會提供一點意見再讓部長做參考第一個部分就是提升出於區發量能跟再利用的成效"},{"start":14441.668,"end":14459.609,"text":"其實我們也知道過去這幾年來7年來家戶廚餘其實這個量變動並不大都維持在50萬噸左右其中就是會有40%是用來做養豬另外有45%是用來堆肥"},{"start":14460.609,"end":14477.401,"text":"我們看到比較好的就是從過去的很少量是用來做其他的部分再利用的地方已經增長到11.4%這部分的確我相信環境部這邊其實非常用心的在處理"},{"start":14478.081,"end":14491.091,"text":"那其中包括黑水盲處理的廚餘每一年去年就有1萬噸佔了整體在利用的1.9%那今天這個部長的口頭報告裡面也都講得非常清楚那其實"},{"start":14492.648,"end":14507.181,"text":"如果再把這個四葉廚餘再加進來的話有關於飼料化處理就從四層變成了六層那代表著說我們的四葉廚餘其實很多都會把它變成一個廚餘的部分"},{"start":14508.582,"end":14526.223,"text":"其實我們剛剛部長有提到這個廚餘量這麼大其實養豬除了讓豬當飼料以外很大一部分就是希望能夠讓這個在處理廚餘過程當中是一個很好的減量的一種方式這個我們也可以理解"},{"start":14527.365,"end":14546.884,"text":"不過如果能夠有更好的方式的話尤其如果要目標是未來不要把它當作一個出於去養豬的話可能我們很多很多的事情都要持續的來努力那去年應該說今年5月跟7月裡面我們也分別在環境部跟農業部請"},{"start":14549.786,"end":14571.791,"text":"兩個部會一起來努力以黑水盲來處理不管是PFAS或者是食品廢棄物處理相關的成效的部分那個時候兩個部會都有表示說依據相關的目標來持續推動政策跟鬆綁相關的法律規範請問目前兩個部會的這個"},{"start":14574.512,"end":14602.345,"text":"討論平台有沒有實際的進度那如何能夠更有效率的來促成這部分不知道部長這邊有沒有可以來做監禁部說明的地方包委因為趁這次的這個廚藝的事情我們也有主動跟陳部長說我們要加速來完成這個事情例如說如何訂定可以做當成飼料例如說他吃什麼可以變成飼料什麼這個要有一個更好的一個明確的規範我相信"},{"start":14603.065,"end":14629.861,"text":"我們會加速來完成這些事情因為黑水盲的確是一個很有效有潛力的一個措施那這個部分我們會再跟農業部在最後的再確認我們希望能夠樂觀啟程這個可以趕快發展起來那一個月或者是到年底方便給我們報告委員到年底好不好因為我們最近真的很趕 了解了解謝謝好那就麻煩在年底的時候"},{"start":14631.082,"end":14656.158,"text":"給我們一份相關的那個研議的報告那再過來就是講到這個預防並減少食物浪費那部長一直強調這個源頭減量才是最好的選擇我相信大家都可以認同這個部分那我們有沒有什麼更具體的因應政策這邊我們看到的就是已經進入了三年的有關於一個環境教育活動"},{"start":14656.898,"end":14671.944,"text":"就是席時來檢除於有一個競賽叫做首席廚師競賽看起來好像辦得非常的熱絡而且它的總獎金是75萬元那裡面有所謂的十大行動的理念那部長不曉得有沒有去參與這樣的活動"},{"start":14673.244,"end":14702.197,"text":"有有有對那也跟委員報告因為這個是一個宣導型的一個活動那我昨天也特別跟我們的主辦的這個市長討論說我們辦這個活動或是說我們國人的剩食大概量是多少有沒有一個更好的指標能夠來做確定那當然我們因為知道這個洗食跟食農教育是有關所以我也主動提出來說因為食農教育是農業部在主責未來我們希望在能夠針對這個源頭講的部分特別是食物浪費的部分"},{"start":14702.797,"end":14719.634,"text":"這個也是保護地球的一種方式特別是在資源匱乏的時候所以我們會更積極的來處理因為目前我必須坦承這個是一個活動活動型的活動鼓勵大家但是真的減了多少的量我還不知道所以我必須要用更好的方法來解決"},{"start":14720.154,"end":14733.472,"text":"是的確這是一個永續理念的一種推廣也希望能夠將來落實那我們來看其他國家怎麼處理好的比如說在韓國韓國的這個廚餘的處理方式呢它是用"},{"start":14734.288,"end":14752.953,"text":"劑量付費的原則就是你儲餘量越多你就要繳更多的費用來協助政府或者是協助相關的機關把這個部分能夠更有好的經費來處理這是韓國有的經驗這是一種可以達成導演作用的一個做法"},{"start":14754.094,"end":14776.876,"text":"比較特別的反而是法國法國在2016年他們就定立了反食品浪費法他們的做法就是要求禁止就是該法禁止面積超過400平方公尺的大型超市銷毀或者是丟棄可食用的食物取而代之的是強制要求跟食物原住的組織包括食物銀行等"},{"start":14777.336,"end":14796.058,"text":"失算機關他們會先訂立一個捐贈的協議再分配那如果不遵守這個法律的經營者將被處以罰款這個是他們當初執行的時候那後來他們將集體的差點不管是監獄 醫院或者學校都把它納為其中的一環"},{"start":14797.179,"end":14812.004,"text":"希望能夠要求去做食物浪費的診斷因為你有診斷知道怎麼處理才能夠有效的去把這個食物浪費減少這個是他們曾經正在執行當中的一些內容"},{"start":14813.924,"end":14825.91,"text":"這個是可以當作一個參考的部分不知道這部分環境部甚至包括農業部可不可以一起來研議如果國外有相關的經驗的話台灣如何能夠借用國外的經驗來做後續的處理"},{"start":14827.796,"end":14852.827,"text":"好 謝謝委員這非常好的建議因為法國這個法我六月的時候剛好到法國有當面問他們的官員這個法實際上執行的狀況那我們會密切注意那也跟委員報告因為我們現在也在推一個資源循環的推動法那其實也會把這個觀念放在這個法裡面也希望委員到時候可以來支持做這個事情因為這個是避免食物浪費很重要的法規上面訂定的一個一環"},{"start":14853.527,"end":14877.774,"text":"是太好了我們會除了積極來互相討論以外我們希望這個法律能夠順利經過大家共同討論來支持是好謝謝那最後有關於這個處以爭主的申報系統跟稽查長我想今天已經非常多的委員針對於相關的這個內容做了相關的槌尋那部長也都有意義來做說明"},{"start":14878.294,"end":14901.423,"text":"那我們也看到的確還是有將近一半左右他沒有辦法要依照好的規定來做稽核稽查那這部分我覺得是不是部長這邊有可以更有強力的一些作為來協助地方政府在這個處理過程當中"},{"start":14902.003,"end":14922.51,"text":"如果他們無法去稽查有什麼特別原因或者是這個當中如果又有其他新的破口出來造成的問題部長這邊能不能更有更積極的作為來協助處理這一塊報告委員因為這個是108年一直到現在剛好今年我們也嘗試進行一些感測器溫度計在這個鍋爐"},{"start":14923.51,"end":14944.989,"text":"甚至還有CCTV直接即時的監控那目前我們有測試過了某一個廠然後其實執行的效果蠻好的而且這樣就避免說他到底有沒有去稽查我們會更有強制的力量也可以幫地方政府來做這個事所以我們正在研議那如果未來還是必須靠廚藝真主的話我們就強烈建議要導入這套的系統"},{"start":14945.689,"end":14974.839,"text":"是期待就是說如果民眾能夠掌握類似的訊息我相信地方住管機關也會比較有壓力所以我們希望把這個訊息能夠不斷的或者是甚至是每天能夠讓透過媒體朋友的一些報導讓民眾知道現在的狀況那也希望地方政府能夠充分的來配合要求所有的這個養豬場或者是相關的處理都可以如期如大家共同努力的方向"},{"start":14975.319,"end":14981.965,"text":"好 沒有問題 謝謝委員請部長繼續幫忙 謝謝好 謝謝王委員的選擇接下來請楊瓊一委員 楊瓊一委員不在好 下一位請劉建和委員發言"},{"start":15003.091,"end":15019.384,"text":"謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在我想還是有人多忙點我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個貴州豬瓣這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的"},{"start":15025.644,"end":15047.136,"text":"環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲嘛中央應該是要強力的去把它接管起來昨天"},{"start":15048.897,"end":15073.469,"text":"這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的這立院的相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講喔在暗場中像水桶雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化清除掉這是不是真的部長有掌握嗎這個要請農業部"},{"start":15074.585,"end":15078.508,"text":"他們那個防潔局 那就請部長 請陳部長這跟我屬性 這應該屬性吧"},{"start":15085.158,"end":15104.795,"text":"對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了"},{"start":15106.636,"end":15118.847,"text":"對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對"},{"start":15132.981,"end":15142.232,"text":"它佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系"},{"start":15144.83,"end":15162.344,"text":"怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的"},{"start":15164.986,"end":15192.367,"text":"的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為又盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":15195.516,"end":15219.526,"text":"教他們如何先移除雜物然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消"},{"start":15220.386,"end":15238.119,"text":"所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就昨天那個潘連周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛這不應該是這個樣子啊"},{"start":15240.16,"end":15255.795,"text":"那顯然在全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣的一個問題的存在然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底"},{"start":15256.716,"end":15284.983,"text":"那你中央不強力介入你還要帶核死還要帶什麼樣的方式去做處理我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的去了解我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對"},{"start":15286.912,"end":15309.984,"text":"就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講講白一點我們今天我們今天就會比較強力的去聊去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論然後剛剛是針對清消然後"},{"start":15311.598,"end":15335.78,"text":"因為副部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿霧荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀"},{"start":15338.94,"end":15364.169,"text":"報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度"},{"start":15365.569,"end":15383.838,"text":"那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這樣都有效嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果就是同意讓他們就是就地掩埋"},{"start":15385.14,"end":15409.77,"text":"包委員因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果依照你環境部的標準10公尺x10公尺的掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10x10嗎很大10米 x10米嗎幾十米"},{"start":15413.631,"end":15434.488,"text":"幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理"},{"start":15436.209,"end":15437.79,"text":"所以所以環境部"},{"start":15457.932,"end":15478.195,"text":"不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊"},{"start":15479.881,"end":15497.738,"text":"這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有 我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達"},{"start":15498.759,"end":15526.558,"text":"廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用焚化的這樣的一個方式對焚化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於焚化不安全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋 一下子要到焚化爐去焚化"},{"start":15530.327,"end":15555.817,"text":"跟委員報告 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的措施啦那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦"},{"start":15558.298,"end":15581.704,"text":"所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含政黨委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個儲備的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要"},{"start":15582.944,"end":15601.256,"text":"要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的"},{"start":15601.696,"end":15621.382,"text":"所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接進駐在這個地方不用回來備詢了我講真的"},{"start":15623.843,"end":15648.849,"text":"我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙"},{"start":15649.605,"end":15675.424,"text":"我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來"},{"start":15676.264,"end":15704.072,"text":"你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬它有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下它才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節它都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯集物的再利用情形"},{"start":15704.844,"end":15731.542,"text":"他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農林水產省與他們的環境省發布會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起"},{"start":15732.662,"end":15754.212,"text":"取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協力的合作來解決這個問題"},{"start":15757.653,"end":15785.461,"text":"有很多事情啦是 因為博定也要再接很多委員你們做博定也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大我知道你們已經我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到10多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打10多通不不不 這不代表我們很密切啦"},{"start":15787.268,"end":15808.407,"text":"就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳部長講到是希望整個這個我們禁運 建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是"},{"start":15810.108,"end":15830.216,"text":"兩個禮拜可以吧 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市集場嗎"},{"start":15832.762,"end":15839.707,"text":"土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣"},{"start":15863.199,"end":15890.534,"text":"這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的對怎麼會有一個不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極他爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然"},{"start":15891.434,"end":15900.579,"text":"我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎"},{"start":15902.798,"end":15921.788,"text":"這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都尽量 尽量的零售是這樣啊 第二季的差不多跟尽量差六個 又多六個你們總共加起來是 還多了六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":15922.708,"end":15947.383,"text":"所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位"},{"start":15949.345,"end":15956.731,"text":"我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長"},{"start":15958.246,"end":15977.804,"text":"5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應"},{"start":15979.721,"end":16008.82,"text":"那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不足之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動保價"},{"start":16010.001,"end":16019.231,"text":"要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 滷肉飯 丁就對了"},{"start":16023.151,"end":16048.848,"text":"我跟委員報告您講的這七項本身那大致上應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說你算是有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話這個會來處理那解禁的部分我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個"},{"start":16050.849,"end":16064.131,"text":"進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商"},{"start":16065.908,"end":16082.041,"text":"小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":16082.461,"end":16095.269,"text":"因為葡萄園很清楚 新聞司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次駕駛差不多8公里後就可以出來了對不對你現在沒辦法出他還要接15天的治療現在還要接15天的治療那這麼低的"},{"start":16099.032,"end":16121.094,"text":"會基建大廈啦 基建大廈之後同樣地在大廈的環境裡面不要說地下人 人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套"},{"start":16122.155,"end":16143.371,"text":"來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後那15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這點的配套"},{"start":16146.331,"end":16165.662,"text":"我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節"},{"start":16166.923,"end":16187.564,"text":"好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 謝謝部長辛苦好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答下一位我們請林楚英委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在下一位我們請圖文綺委員發言"},{"start":16196.519,"end":16224.751,"text":"好 謝謝主席那先請陳部長先請農業部陳部長陳部長那在10月26號記者會你本來說第二天就可以提出提出完整的完整的補助方案嘛那後來又說要改要一週所以是不是確定下週一可以提出完整的補助方案"},{"start":16225.231,"end":16241.926,"text":"我想我跟委員說明就是當初我記得沒有錯的話當初在這個方案裡面只針對一個小環節那我們後來考慮到就是整個豬產業不是只有特定的一個環節受到影響所以我才會請我們的同事"},{"start":16242.566,"end":16265.375,"text":"要把整個租的一級的產業鏈都把它評估出來那這樣的話我們在這個疫情期間受影響的這些從業人員我們才能夠讓他們有一些比較安心所以最快什麼時候這個禮拜六最慢這個禮拜六之前我們就會完整的方案做公佈因為整個方案的公佈還要經過行政院先同意因為需要一些經費"},{"start":16266.676,"end":16280.345,"text":"好 那而且昨天總質詢的時候本席有問到就是有請我們部長幫忙針對豬農短期飼料補助那部長好像也說這部分我想我們有納入我們的方案裡面"},{"start":16281.297,"end":16300.176,"text":"有纳入我们的方案里面有纳入所以也希望因为这次非洲猪瘟也来得很快台湾这次碰到这样也对猪农有很大的影响我们希望这补助公布的速度也要快然后尽量补助能够全面来减少猪农这么大的损失"},{"start":16300.656,"end":16317.984,"text":"我剛才說了我們就是在租產業鏈的一級生產鏈我們都會來協助處理所以盡量層面做大嘛減少他們的損失那還有我們非洲豬瘟爆發到現在那我們10月27號"},{"start":16319.81,"end":16343.186,"text":"我們有開了應變中心有開第39次的會議對不對因為應變中心我們每天開會議我們每天開10月27要開第39次嘛對不對我可能要確認一下好沒關係那後來網路上因為現在還沒有公佈說它非洲豬瘟的原因現在原因還沒有找到對不對"},{"start":16344.167,"end":16370.661,"text":"我想我們現在因為照整個案例場的一個一個權責是由台中市政府要進行疫調那台中市政府在疫調的過程中有一些必須釐清的所以還會不斷的去調查那美伊士的中央應變中心因為中央應變中心除了台中市以外是全台灣各縣市的所有的農業行政的首長或代表會參加那他們也在一直在關心整個案情的發展"},{"start":16371.021,"end":16398.2,"text":"所以我們會把相關的這些工作會跟我們的工作會議裡面去會討論跟處理我們也希望這個原因趕快找出來不然其實現在網路上因為民眾很恐慌那網路上也議論紛紛一下說越南配偶也有說陸配也有人說什麼為了萊豬的進口那所以我們要找出這原因現在多久可以完成基因序列的定序"},{"start":16400.027,"end":16428.618,"text":"這個檢測什麼時候可以完成禮拜五禮拜五可以完成不過我要先跟委員報告基因定序完你也不能說這個是中國來的這個是越南來的這個沒有辦法它定序完只是說跟哪一國的株枝基因序列相似這個有它的複雜性因為你要做比對的時候一定要那個國家把它的基因序列上網我們才能夠比對可是很可惜的中國的所有的基因序列它都不上網"},{"start":16429.878,"end":16445.214,"text":"不上网的话你就没有办法比对所以没有办法核对所以我们只知道这个基因的序列那可能这个基因里面可能是不是有一些有一些重组或其他的部分对这个了解所以就算定序之后也没有办法证明是哪一个国家没有办法证明这没办法证明"},{"start":16446.154,"end":16475.034,"text":"那到時候這個原因可能還是不容易找到真的因為肥肉豬瘟有可能是出於有可能是人的接觸有沒有到國外的案場有沒有發病的這些場 畜牧場然後從這個衣服或是什麼東西攜帶進來的都有可能啦所以我們必須要用排除的方式也好或用確認的方式也好去釐清對 因為我們也是希望這個發生的原因盡量找到以後才有辦法去遏止"},{"start":16476.014,"end":16492.467,"text":"對 我們現在的疫調其實還有一個重點除了趕快找到可能的來源以外更重要就是說在這個疫調過程中可以瞭解我們整個防疫系統裡面哪一些還可以去做精進分解這個才是一個重點好 那我們現在染疫死亡的株質處理方式"},{"start":16494.309,"end":16522.137,"text":"染疫就是一條染疫就是那一頭那其他的都是必死豬就是因為豬是在飼養過程中它可能因為管理不當或者可能其他的疾病那這些疾病都不是法定的傳染病的部分那一般來講是可以送到化製廠或者是焚燒也可以或者是掩埋有它的三種模式然後根據它當地本身的條件而決定但是我要再強調它不是非洲豬瘟的"},{"start":16523.637,"end":16551.711,"text":"並必死豬因為非洲豬瘟的必死豬只有一條就是我們現在發現的就是檢測那其他的不是其他的現在我們在疫調的過程中發現的那都是必死豬就是說不是感染而引起的死亡的蜘蛛但是我們去抽檢都是陰性它都不是非洲豬瘟所以目前查到有非洲豬瘟死亡的只有一頭就是檢測的只有一條那其他的其他的還沒有檢測出來對 那個場全部撲殺嘛"},{"start":16553.608,"end":16572.301,"text":"全部扑殺所以其他的場域我們檢測出來的有沒有我們在公布的時候檢測出來的都是一般的正常的有疾病的死亡但是不是非洲豬瘟染病而死亡的所以那個場的全部扑殺之後最後是掩埋是不是對 那個是因為緊急扑殺而掩埋"},{"start":16572.981,"end":16599.947,"text":"那掩埋的地點應該 後來應該都有管理吧沒有 這個掩埋地點就是其實在平常的規劃裡面就已經確認在那個地點了因為非洲豬屋我們有一個團隊中央應變中心一直持續在溫州從108年開始 我們沒有間斷每年都開三到四次會所以在那個時候就有預定了萬一有問題發生的時候在哪邊掩埋 掩埋怎麼掩埋的所有的程序都是按照那個方式來做"},{"start":16600.748,"end":16615.008,"text":"對 所以也管理好不會有以後再擴散的問題對 所以現在是鎖定在這個案場沒有其他外擴的跡象我們只能這樣講好 所以都是對掩埋場都有管理是好 那我們"},{"start":16615.949,"end":16638.237,"text":"記得我們在2018年農業部好像就超前部署針對各種非洲豬瘟防疫管理措施好像就已經有超前部署所以到現在應該算一算也有7年了吧對那我們這7年到底做了什麼怎麼感覺非洲豬瘟一來好像大家很多事情還沒有準備好"},{"start":16639.137,"end":16664.153,"text":"我跟各位報告沒有跟委員報告就是我們在107年成立中央應變中心的時候我們就沒有說結束就一直持續著那在這個過程中其實因為台灣是沒有非洲豬瘟的疫區非洲豬瘟疫區所以都沒有非洲豬瘟的前提之下我們的重點是在邊境的防治防疫就是將病毒阻絕於境外那這個部分"},{"start":16664.813,"end":16684.605,"text":"特別是針對我們的手提行李人員旅客的這些後送行李郵包郵件還有走私的茶器所以一直在強調這個所以我們在歷次的成果對外宣布的時候就是我們的確也檢測到一些高風險疫區來的這些肉製品是含有非肉質溫的病毒"},{"start":16685.185,"end":16702.191,"text":"所以我們是重點是在防疫就是阻絕於境外那這次是第一次我們發現到這個案例那這個案例本身其實我們有演練包括您剛才講的遇到了以後在哪邊哪邊去掩埋有沒有怎麼掩埋方法其實我們都有演練"},{"start":16703.271,"end":16725.752,"text":"對 所以我希望說居然從2018年我們就有再開始來做超前部署所以針對這些發生以後這些後續這些問題包含廚餘還有這些豬隻掩埋然後民眾該怎麼去應對應該要有一個指引不然民眾會造成相當的恐慌我想我們這個指引其實都有現在"},{"start":16726.733,"end":16751.266,"text":"比較看到比較一些比較弱的地方就是疫調的部分那其他的針對關聯廠的調查有沒有去採樣去檢測包括全國的我相信現在目前做的他們現在做的是還符合他們規定所以我也希望農業部在這一方面盡量多宣傳讓民眾去了解有些不必要的恐慌避免民眾因為不了解造成恐慌"},{"start":16751.846,"end":16774.646,"text":"那所以有一些指引民眾該怎麼去面對 怎麼去處理怎麼面對 還是說怎麼去觀察的外觀等等應該要教育一下我們的民眾對 我想分兩個層次一個層次是消費者 一個層次是豬農那消費者就是放心的吃豬肉很多人 現在很多影片說現在可能這個豬肉吃了會怎樣我覺得這個是錯假訊息 我們一直在處理"},{"start":16774.926,"end":16784.608,"text":"對 所以這個就是該教育的對 那個另外一個部分是豬籠的部分那豬籠的部分本身的這些可能疑似案例跟那個胸腺肺炎 是不是"},{"start":16786.105,"end":16804.55,"text":"圖卡的部分我們都有給豬農去做這些判試加獎他們的判試所以我說居然從2018我們就開始有超前部署像這些我們當初已經有規劃的包含豬農消費者的部分一定要先讓他們知道對 我們持續在做謝謝委員提醒好 那我們現在因為"},{"start":16805.919,"end":16835.12,"text":"非洲豬瘟它有潛伏期冷凍豬肉可以100天冷藏豬肉100天冷凍豬肉可以到1000天那我們現在擔心是說你15天的禁令萬一15天以後又還有是不是15天又15天那這個時間是不是會一直延長下去我們在整個處理這個應變的部分就是這個案例場發生發生我們用15天的禁運的目的就是說可能的傳播鏈我們要把它截斷"},{"start":16836.181,"end":16850.682,"text":"這樣的話我們去找除了這個案例場以外其他的案例場有沒有同時發生那第一輪的疫調裡面我們很幸運的覺得說這個案例場並沒有擴散的跡象但是現在還在潛伏期不敢這樣百分之百想說"},{"start":16851.203,"end":16865.353,"text":"因為我們現在擔心說我們現在是禁宅禁運而且禁用廚餘嘛那所以現在禁用廚餘我相信今天大家都討論很多廚餘的部分怎麼去處理所以這一部分可能要請我們環境部彭部長"},{"start":16867.674,"end":16886.832,"text":"好 那陳部長 那你就請回我問一下彭部長請彭部長 副委員好好 彭部長 那針對我們廚餘去化的方式其實昨天本席有總諮詢問行政院院長其實他也說他不滿意現在廚餘的處理方式那請問部長有什麼想法"},{"start":16887.592,"end":16910.298,"text":"包委員因為我必須感謝過去養豬可以解決很多廚藝的問題未來不管這個廚藝怎麼去去化這個廚藝可不可以拿來養豬其實現在其實我覺得還是有一些更好的方法如果說還是有珍珠的一個方式的話珍珠中心是一種方式但是如何對於現有的珍珠能夠加強監控這是我們可以做的"},{"start":16910.638,"end":16928.429,"text":"那如果未來廚藝不養豬它可能是要有一段時間那這個時候就要想辦法把廚藝的例如說生殖能源 黑水盲或是各種堆肥的所謂的量能把它盤點算出來要有一段時間我們是鼓勵這樣的措施的對 但是我們現在大部分"},{"start":16929.569,"end":16952.85,"text":"現在那麼多處理好像很多都是用掩埋的方式處理對不對目前在緊急狀況下有些縣市它的量能不夠他只好用掩埋的方式做處理所以行政院長對於就是因為現在大部分都用掩埋方式所以他是不埋沒有 委員大概就是台中啦台中是比較多啦那台中也宣布說他們用現在要進到焚化廠"},{"start":16953.73,"end":16979.105,"text":"那部長剛剛也有提到那就是生殖能處理廠還有真主中心等等都是一個很好的方式那現在因為現在發生這個事情之後我相信現在連地方政府大家都非常的重視那是不是環境部針對我們生殖能處理廠還有真主中心是不是能夠支持甚至補助經費讓他們去做這些的設備"},{"start":16980.647,"end":16999.306,"text":"報告委員 這個其實不見得是我們要經費補助這個經過一些設計 生態系的建立之後其實是可以用BOT的方式能夠建立起來像桃園的那個生殖能中心就是這樣的一個案例不見得是政府要拿很多錢出來對啊 那至少要怎麼去輔導他們去做我們是期待有更多但是跟委員報告 因為"},{"start":17000.867,"end":17022.297,"text":"像這樣的措施很容易變成是嫌惡設施所以這個部分也希望跟民眾那當然地方政府一定要有這個意願能夠來做不然的話我們想做也做不出來好 所以針對這部分現在非洲豬瘟發生大家就重視到廚藥的問題所以希望部長我們來加速來嚴寧怎麼樣處理廚藥的問題"},{"start":17024.818,"end":17041.383,"text":"那這些我們該怎麼去輔導他去做生殖能處理場怎麼去輔導他去做珍珠中心我相信環境部還是要大力的去推動去支持是是沒問題好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝彭導那接下來請楊耀文來做詢問好謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長來有請彭部長"},{"start":17055.929,"end":17084.376,"text":"養委員好部長好部長我們根據環管署地方環保機關持續加強查緝機查廚餘再利用檢核養豬場計畫有這一個計畫就是要求廚餘養豬場必須要按時上傳廚餘的相關資料是對不對是那他假如沒有按照規定呢"},{"start":17085.776,"end":17108.137,"text":"上傳就是地方政府必須要每個月去積查是那現在有一個問題同時我們部裡面也要進行抽查是這個計畫裡面的規定我有幾個問題我想要問一下就是我看先前"},{"start":17110.583,"end":17136.062,"text":"前進應變所的記者會部長有說調閱相關的資料就案發養豬場在5月的時候上傳了24次6月8次 7月1次6月8次 7月1次 8月0次就表示說它是嚴重的違規了那台中市政府"},{"start":17137.27,"end":17163.942,"text":"就是它違規以後按照我們計畫的規定是地方政府必須要每個月稽查結果台中市政府只有在五月跟七月各稽核一次那我想要請問一下六月沒有稽核我們部裡面知道嗎我們是事後會去列出這個資料才知道可是六月到現在也有一段時間"},{"start":17164.882,"end":17184.045,"text":"我們其實那時候知道就是說一直提醒他然後我們系統上有一些警示所以我們就會提醒他一定要去集合可是因為這個主管還是地方政府所以他必須負起這個責任當然 現在就是說已經到了像7月"},{"start":17185.006,"end":17210.974,"text":"一整個月只有一次然後八月零次這個就是已經到了類似不管的狀態了那我現在的問題是台中市政府當然對於這樣子的養豬場查核是有問題的這個沒有爭論因為最少他六月跟八月沒有去查核"},{"start":17212.728,"end":17222.437,"text":"可是計畫裡面也賦予環境部可以去進行抽查我們當初為什麼會沒有去抽查我們來 請問副署長"},{"start":17225.077,"end":17246.045,"text":"跟委員報告 這個我們山區中心那個就是要有一個稽查的比例 抽查的比例3%那我們去查了一下1213到114我們這個抽查都是有按照這個3%的比例去抽查對啦 我知道 我是說你們這3%"},{"start":17250.106,"end":17273.221,"text":"要選擇抽查哪一個廚餘養豬場你們有沒有一定的標準譬如說像我現在看到資料我就覺得案發的養豬場其實是就上傳資料的部分來看是非常嚴重的違規然後你們也知道地方政府沒有去稽查"},{"start":17274.83,"end":17291.651,"text":"為什麼抽查的時候沒有抽查到這一家啦我的意思是這樣子我們請我們那個司法部好 報告委員這一家剛好就是三個中心在抽查的時候沒有抽查到"},{"start":17296.194,"end":17317.104,"text":"對 當然我現在不是在追究責任就是說抽查的定義本來就跟稽查不一樣所以你們剛才講的3%的比例這個3% 5%這種比例大家都接受那我是不是建議一下就是以後像這種很"},{"start":17318.444,"end":17340.675,"text":"就是從資料來看就看得出來很有問題的應該要列為優先的對象啦不要太隨機啦我知道你們現在大概因為抽查嘛抽查就是要說就是從公平上來看或者是便宜形式來看都是隨意嘛"},{"start":17341.715,"end":17358.963,"text":"我現在的建議是說以後針對這一種這個就是從紙面上的資料就看得出來它有異常也報告委員因為這個的真主的主管機關還是地方"},{"start":17360.143,"end":17388.793,"text":"那我們是提供這個平台讓地方可以去做這個抽查 積查的這個機會所以地方呢最重要的是他隔月一定要去積查然後輔導他改善那這家其實我覺得目前我看到的是要從1月開始就很大的異常了啦所以我是覺得希望說未來跟委員報告因為我們有一個計畫如果未來還是要去做真主的話那每一個廠他勢必要有一個更及時連線的用科學的方法及時的去解決這個是我們未來要做的"},{"start":17389.226,"end":17417.378,"text":"部長我還是要說明一下當然地方政府最主要的責任在地方政府這個沒有爭議不過問題發生了就沒有中央地方的之分我是看你們這個計畫裡面計畫也是你們訂的你們也有賦予自己應該要做的工作是抽查我現在的建議是說以後"},{"start":17419.316,"end":17441.782,"text":"當然你們不可能每一家都稽查啦不過以後不要用隨機就是問題我說真的啦整體性這麼嚴重的一個問題發生最主要的事務處理還是在中央政府啦 對不對那假如說事前我們有發現到"},{"start":17445.117,"end":17472.391,"text":"很嚴重的不正常的養豬場也好 垃圾場也好應該要優先抽查啦我的意思是這樣子我們會修改相關的辦法沒有任何究責的意思啦只是說觀念上可能要改變一下因為我看這個養豬場就是從書面就是任何外行的人看"},{"start":17473.738,"end":17492.134,"text":"抽查都應該會選他部長剛剛既然講了要用更科學的方法來做監測假如說我們還是要使用廚餘來養豬那我就也談一下因為時間的關係我就問最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":17497.563,"end":17520.734,"text":"如果越科學像譬如說台中市的環保局就表示說本案的豬籠年長不按網路操作這個我覺得這個是事實啦因為我住在很偏鄉的地方我相信很多長者對於網路新的科技對他們來講可能比"},{"start":17521.494,"end":17545.416,"text":"比事業本身的挑戰更大那現在都有這個問題了以後部長要再更科技那怎麼來克服這個問題我的意思就是說怎麼讓業者或者是被規範者來配合我們的政策你總是要 他不是心態上配合是說怎麼讓他可以上手"},{"start":17547.217,"end":17568.235,"text":"我們未來是他不用來拍照上傳直接我們有這個溫度計在鍋爐裡面還有CCTV直接指的這個鍋爐他有沒有操作我們都可以清楚甚至用AI的方式辨別他有沒有違法我們是希望這樣做這個你們在建制上沒有問題目前我們已經有測試一個廠那目前沒有問題"},{"start":17569.295,"end":17587.088,"text":"那我覺得假如是用這種方法就可以很完整的解決很多問題他也不用再上船嘛因為我們可能建設中心我們就看得到嘛 對不對那對於朱龍來講也不用最少不會因為"},{"start":17590.15,"end":17599.547,"text":"知識跟技術上它可能造成很大的困擾沒錯 就是以後不管年紀了就是會有這樣的制度來完成這些事情"},{"start":17600.134,"end":17624.959,"text":"好 那我最後還是因為有一些問題沒有辦法問不過我還是要提醒一下部長就是說假如說我們目前的廚餘去化量假如說真的政策上是停止廚餘養豬那怎麼做好相關的應變"},{"start":17628.72,"end":17633.565,"text":"這個部裡面要先事先講好 好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員的指教 謝謝"},{"start":17639.349,"end":17663.339,"text":"好 謝謝 那本的會議詢問全部結束委員吳佩奕 劉徐庭 盧憲一 何欣淳所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做一下決定第一 報告及詢問完畢第二 委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":17664.119,"end":17679.609,"text":"那專題報告到此結束現在休息到下午2點那在本會會議室進行職業安全衛生法部門條文修正草案等31案之主條討論非法案相關的相關列席人員可先行離席好我們的專題報告到此結束然後下午2點在本"},{"start":17693.82,"end":17700.283,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17741.268,"end":17745.949,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17758.776,"end":17758.856,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":20103.629,"end":20130.485,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請議事人員宣讀本市新增提案條文內容若有修正動議 請一併宣讀職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案委員王振旭等23人 委員吳佩奕等19人委員莊瑞雄等16人 委員林月琴等21人委員林淑芬等21人 委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人 委員黃潔等16人委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員陳聽飛等16人提案條文對照表"},{"start":20131.57,"end":20157.767,"text":"委員林月琴等二十一人提案第一條守據為為防止職業災害及勞動場所發生不法侵害予以現行法同委員林月琴等二十一人提案第二條增列第五七八九款如下五事業單位人員指僱主各級主管受僱勞工及其他受工作場所負責人指揮或監督從事勞動之人員其彼此間之職務存有平行上對下或下對上之關係"},{"start":20159.577,"end":20184.483,"text":"七 勞動場所 指於勞動契約程序中由僱主指揮使勞工履行契約提供勞務之場所自營作業者實際從事勞動之場所及其他受工作場所負責人指揮或監督從事勞動之人員實際從事勞動之場所八 工作場所 指勞動場所中接受僱主或代理僱主指示處理有關勞工事務之人所能支配管理之場所"},{"start":20185.643,"end":20206.214,"text":"9 作業場所 指工作場所中從事特定工作目的之場所現行第五款 疑為第六款 予以現行法同委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員莊瑞雄等16人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第九條 予以現行法同"},{"start":20207.154,"end":20222.708,"text":"委員王振旭等23人提案第15條之一第一項及第二項與委員羅廷威等18人提案同第三項及第四項如下事業單位應使前項施工者依施工計畫書確實執行並指派人員或委託專業機構監督及查證"},{"start":20224.99,"end":20242.569,"text":"前三項一定規模以上工程範圍分析與評估方法安全衛生圖說與規範之內容工程規劃設計安全分析報告與施工計畫書內容要項人員或專業機構之資格條件監督及查證內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":20243.65,"end":20271.082,"text":"委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員徐富奎等16人提案新增第15條之一與委員羅廷威等18人提案同委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案新增第15條之一與原版同委員王正旭等23人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第22條與原版同委員林淑芬等21人提案第22條"},{"start":20272.864,"end":20283.02,"text":"第三項如下第一項勞工健康服務人員專業機構之資格勞工健康之保護與管理及其他應遵行事項之規則由中央主管機關定之予以願反同"},{"start":20284.611,"end":20311.942,"text":"委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員林月琴等二十一人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人委員黃潔等十六人提案新增第二章之一職場霸凌之防治委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十二條之一與原版同"},{"start":20312.862,"end":20331.408,"text":"委員林月琴的二十一人提案新增第二十二條之一第一項第二句為因事業單位人員利用職務或權勢關係倒數第四句為孤立或侮辱等言詞或行為與與願反同委員黃潔等十六人提案新增第二十二條之一第一項及第二項如下"},{"start":20332.188,"end":20352.036,"text":"颁发所称职场霸凌指劳工与执行职务因其事业单位人员及具共同作业或业务往来关系人员利用职务权势或业务往来关系持续以冒犯威胁冷落孤立侮辱或其他不当之言词或行为致其身心健康遭受危害但情节重大者不以持续发生为必要"},{"start":20352.836,"end":20372.359,"text":"本法第二章之一所稱僱主細指事業主或事業之經營負責人代表僱主行使管理權之人或代表僱主處理有關受僱者事務之人視同僱主要派單位使用派遣勞工時視為第22條之一至第22條之四規定之僱主第三項與院版同"},{"start":20373.706,"end":20391.214,"text":"委員王振旭等二十三人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員邱振勳等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十二條之二與願版同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案新增第二十二條之二第一項第一款第一目及第二目如下"},{"start":20392.796,"end":20415.181,"text":"瓜湖一採行避免申訴人受職場霸凌情形再度發生之保護措施瓜湖二是申訴人需求及事件情節提供相關諮詢及協助第二款第四目如下瓜湖四一被霸凌勞工意願提供相關諮詢協助及保護措施予以願反同委員林月琴等21人提案第"},{"start":20415.874,"end":20430.815,"text":"新增第二十二條之二第一項第二款第三四目同院版第四三目第三項後段如下經調查認定屬職場霸凌成立之案件亦應將處理結果於該網站登錄之第四項如下"},{"start":20431.515,"end":20452.888,"text":"故主依第一項所為適當措施前項資訊登錄方式與前條第二項後段應訂定之防制措施及規範內容應包括職場大臨之樣態預防事項教育訓練申訴管道調查與處理程序及人員組成懲戒處理及其他相關措施其準則由中央主管機關定之予與院辦同"},{"start":20455.626,"end":20477.278,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之二第一項序文後段為分號被霸凌勞工及行為人分屬不同事業單位且聚共同作業或業務往來關係者及該行為人之雇主一同第一款第二目及第二款第三目刪除頓號法律諮詢之文字第二款第四目如下"},{"start":20479.675,"end":20502.65,"text":"刮鬍子一被霸凌勞工意願提供必要之協助及保護措施並應適度調整工作內容或工作場所其餘第一項與委員范雲等18人提案之第一項同第二項如下雇主因與受理申訴後二個月內完成調查必要時得延長之延長以二次為限每次不得於一個月"},{"start":20503.51,"end":20521.875,"text":"並應通知申訴人被申訴人第三項及第四項與院版第二項及第三項同第五項首句為僱主依前四項所為之適當措施第四句為與前條第三項各款應訂定之防治措施及規範與與院版第四項同"},{"start":20523.598,"end":20543.965,"text":"委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案新政第22條之三與原版同委員林月琴等21人提案新政第22條之三第一項續文及第二項與委員范雲等18人提案同"},{"start":20544.565,"end":20558.485,"text":"第一項第一款及第二款如下一 被申訴人為最高負責人或雇主二 雇主未依第22條之二第一項受理申訴案件或受霸凌勞工不服雇主所為之調查或懲戒結果"},{"start":20560.851,"end":20580.115,"text":"第三項至第八項如下地方主管機關為調查第一項第一款及第二款之申訴案件得為請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理地方主管機關受理第一項第二款是由之申訴案件除為事實之調查並因為僱主有無違反第二十二條之二個款規定之調查"},{"start":20580.915,"end":20594.46,"text":"地方主管機關經調查結果認定第一項第一款第二款申訴事由成立得令行為人之雇主於一定期限內採取必要之處置但情節重大者得依具備霸凌勞工之意願提供訴訟協助"},{"start":20596.101,"end":20619.951,"text":"地方主管機關依本法規定進行調查時申訴人被申訴人及受邀協助之個人或單位應與配合並提供相關資料被申訴人不得規避妨礙或拒絕有關地方主管機關受理職場霸凌申訴與最高負責負責人之範圍申訴處理程序調查方式訴訟協助及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":20620.791,"end":20646.22,"text":"第一項但書所訂備申訴人為政府機關構之最高負責人時勞工應向其上期機關構提起申訴委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之三第五項倒數第二句增列文字頓號申付程序與與願版同委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之四第一項與委員范雲等18人提案同第二項如下"},{"start":20647.02,"end":20657.913,"text":"申訴案件經僱主或直轄市或縣市主管機關調查後認定為職場霸凌且情節重大者僱主得於知悉該調查結果之日起30日內不經預告終止勞動契約"},{"start":20661.089,"end":20683.447,"text":"委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第23條語願版同委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第24條語願版同"},{"start":20685.629,"end":20709.605,"text":"委員王振旭等23人提案第26條第一項如下事業單位以其事業交付承攬時應於事前就交付承攬之事業實施風險評估將有關工作環境危害因素與因採取之安全衛生設備及措施等評估結果告知該承攬人並於承攬期間使承攬人依評估結果確實執行第二項及第三項與院版同"},{"start":20710.768,"end":20733.502,"text":"委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡宇宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳亭菲等16人 委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第26條與原版同委員王振旭等23人 提案第27條 第一項增列第5款如下五 機械設備器具及人員之進場管制 現行第5款 已為第6款 與原版同"},{"start":20734.491,"end":20744.189,"text":"委員林旭彬等二十一人委員蔡易玉等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第二十七條語願版同"},{"start":20746.092,"end":20775.572,"text":"委員王振旭等二十三人 委員林淑芬等二十一人 委員蔡易宇等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十九人 委員陳亭飛等十六人 委員邱振軍等二十二人 委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十七條之一與願反同委員王振旭等二十三人 委員蔡易宇等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十九人 委員陳亭飛等十六人 委員邱振軍等二十二人 委員徐富奎等十六人提案第三十二條與願反同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第三十二條第三項刪除平建二字與願反同"},{"start":20776.613,"end":20789.725,"text":"委員王振旭等23人委員蔡易宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第39條與原版同委員林淑芬等21人提案第39條第6項莫具為應付舉證責任與原版同"},{"start":20795.325,"end":20817.066,"text":"委員林月琴等21人提案第39條第一項第一款如下一事業單位違反本法有關安全衛生或職場霸凌防治之規定第二項如下主管機關或勞動檢查機構為確認雇主依本法所應採取之相關措施得實施調查第三項莫具為並得委請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理與與院辦同"},{"start":20820.53,"end":20840.291,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案第39條第一項與院版同第二項如下主管機關或勞動檢查機構為確認雇主依本法所應採取之預防及相關處置措施得實施調查第三項莫具第三個字為違與與院版第三項同第四項與院版第四項同"},{"start":20841.292,"end":20850.484,"text":"委員王振旭等二十三人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員戳政軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十條與願反同"},{"start":20852.717,"end":20872.558,"text":"委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第四十條第一項第三句為處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑予與院板同委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十一條與院板同"},{"start":20873.459,"end":20900.357,"text":"委員王真旭等二十三人提案第四十三條第一項第四款如下四違反第十五條之一第一項至第三項第二十三條第一項第二十六條第二十七條第二十七條之一第一項第二項第二十八條第三十二條第一項規定至發生第三十七條第二項之災害予以願反同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第四十三條第一項續文第二句為處新台幣五萬元以上三百萬元以下罰還予以願反同"},{"start":20901.144,"end":20926.123,"text":"委員蔡易瑜等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人 委員徐富奎等16人提案第43條與院版同委員林月清等21人提案第44條第一項第三款第二句刪除文字後段二字 第五款句末為並得按次處罰 第二項守據為有前項規定行為之一者與與院版第43條同"},{"start":20929.059,"end":20946.561,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案第43條第一項第二款與委員范雲等18人提案第一項第二款前段同第三款第二據為第22條之一第三項後段或第22條之二第一項規定與委員范雲等18人提案同"},{"start":20947.492,"end":20968.358,"text":"委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳亭菲等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人 委員徐富奎等16人 提案第44條 語願版同委員林月琴等21人 提案第1項前段刪除文字第9條 第2項頓好 第1 2 4項莫拒違"},{"start":20973.337,"end":20999.992,"text":"並得按次處罰 予以願版第44條同委員王振旭等23人提案第45條第一項第二款手具文字為違反第15條之一第一項至第三項予以願版同委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡奕宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案第45條予以願版同委員林月琴等21人提案第45條第一項第一款文字如下"},{"start":21000.632,"end":21029.25,"text":"第二十二條之一第二項後面兩個字後段刪除第二款如下二違反第十五條之一第一項第二項第十七條第十八條第三項第二十二條之二第一項第一款第二十六條至第二十八條第二十九條第三項第三十三條或第三十九條第四項其規定第二項守據為有前項規定行為之一者予以願反同委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十五條第一項第一款據莫增列"},{"start":21030.834,"end":21041.023,"text":"逗號並得按次處罰予與院本同委員黃婕等16人提案第45條第一項第一款如下違反第6條第二項第12條第4項第20條第一項第二項第21條第一項第二項"},{"start":21044.042,"end":21060.893,"text":"第二十二條第一項第二十二條之一第三項後段第二十二條之二第一項第二款第二項第四項第二十三條第一項第三十二條第一項第三十四條第一項或第三十八條之規定經通知限期改善 借期未改善予以委員范雲等十八人提案同"},{"start":21061.963,"end":21085.87,"text":"委員王真旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳亭飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案第46條與院版同委員林月琴等21人提案第48條第一項第三項同院版第46條第一項及第4項第二項及第4項如下違反第24條第二項第三項之規定者處新台幣1萬元以上5萬元以下罰還"},{"start":21087.33,"end":21113.556,"text":"第一項採處全時效自地方主管機關收受申訴人一第二十二條之三第一項但書規定提起申訴之日起算委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十六條第一項據莫增列分號情節重大者處十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰款予與院辦同委員黃婕等十六人提案第四十六條第一項及第二項與委員范雲等十八人提案同第三項如下第一項採處全時效"},{"start":21116.056,"end":21122.931,"text":"自直轄市或縣市主管機關收受申訴人一第二十二條之三第一項但書規定提起申訴之日起算"},{"start":21124.082,"end":21150.68,"text":"委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第48條 語願版同委員林月晴等21人 提案第46條 語願版第48條同委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第49條 語願版同"},{"start":21153.499,"end":21179.718,"text":"委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振鈞等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第五十一條語願版同委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振鈞等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第五十一條之一語願版同繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":21182.611,"end":21202.097,"text":"修正動議二第22條之三受雇者或求職者遭受職場霸凌因向雇主提起申訴但有下列情形之一者得盡向地方主管機關提起申訴一被申訴人屬最高負責人或雇用人二雇主為處理或不服被申訴人之雇主所為調查或懲戒結果"},{"start":21202.857,"end":21229.947,"text":"勞工依前項但書規定向直轄市或縣市主管機關提起申訴之期限因依下列規定辦理一自職場霸凌行為終了時逾三年者不予受理二職場霸凌事件發生時勞工在職者其得於離職之日起一年內申訴但依前款規定有較長申訴期限者得起從其規定直轄市或縣市主管機關會調查第一項申訴案件得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理"},{"start":21233.82,"end":21248.904,"text":"第22条之四受雇者或求职者因遭受职场霸凌受有财产或非财产上损害者由雇主及行为人连带负损害赔偿责任但雇主证明其以遵行本法所定之各项防治职场霸凌之规定"},{"start":21249.504,"end":21267.782,"text":"且对该事情之发生以尽力防止人不免发生者雇主不负损害赔偿责任如被害人依前项但疏之规定不能受损害赔偿时法院因其申请的斟酌雇主与被害人之经济状况令雇主为全部或一部之损害赔偿"},{"start":21268.582,"end":21294.157,"text":"僱主賠償損害時對於職場霸凌行為人有求償權被害人因遭受職場霸凌治身法律訴訟與受司法機關通知到庭期間僱主應給予公價行為人因職場霸凌因第一項規定負損害賠償責任者法院得因被害人之請求依侵害情節著定損害額一倍至三倍之懲罰性賠償金前項行為人為最高"},{"start":21294.946,"end":21323.065,"text":"负责人或雇佣人被害人得请求损害而三倍至五倍之惩罚性赔偿金第22条之五受雇者或求职者因雇主违反第22条之二第一项之义务受有损害者雇主应负赔偿责任第22条之六前两条情形受雇者或求职者虽非财产上之损害亦得请求赔偿相当至今而其名誉"},{"start":21323.737,"end":21344.427,"text":"被侵害者并得请求回复名誉之事当处分第二十二条之七第二十二条之五至第二十二条之五之损害赔偿请求权自请求权人之有损害及赔偿义务人时期二年二年内不行使而消灭"},{"start":21345.069,"end":21367.498,"text":"自有職場霸凌行為或違反各該規定之行為時期與實聯者一同提案委員陳金輝蘇清泉廖偉祥修正動議三第十五條之一事業單位將一定規模以上之工程交付規劃設計時應依其工程特性分析潛在施工危害編制安全衛生圖說及規範"},{"start":21370.048,"end":21394.004,"text":"量化编列安全卫生费用并制作工程规划设计安全分析报告事业单位将前项工程交付施工时应使该施工者于事前依工程规划设计安全分析报告评估施工风险采取必要之预防设备及措施纳入施工计划书并确实执行前二项一定规模以上工程范围分析与评估方法"},{"start":21394.704,"end":21413.303,"text":"安全衛生圖說與規範之內容工程規劃涉及安全分析報告與施工計劃書內容要項及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之提案人廖偉翔委員連署人陳委員金輝王委員喻敏"},{"start":21416.519,"end":21430.562,"text":"修正動議四第十五條之一事業單位將一定規模以上之工程較複規劃設計時因應其工程特性分析潛在施工危害編織安全衛生圖說及規範量化編列安全衛生"},{"start":21431.929,"end":21461.409,"text":"費用並製作工程規劃設計安全分析報告事業單位將前項工程交付施工時應時該施工者於事前依工程規劃設計安全分析報告評估施工風險採取必要之日預防設備及措施納入施工計劃書並確實執行前任項一定規模工程分析與評估方法分析報告與施工計劃書內容要項及其他應遵行事項之辦法由莊主管機關定之"},{"start":21462.329,"end":21488.607,"text":"提案人 劉委員 建國 連署人 王委員 鄭旭 陳委員 吟 林委員 岳勤宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是王俊旭 王委員再來是林岳勤 林委員林署 林委員陳昭芝 陳委員謝謝然後勞動部部長 洪聖翰"},{"start":21490.376,"end":21509.174,"text":"治安署署長林立堂 勞動及職業安全衛生研究所所長王厚誠謝謝 勞動條件及就業評審司司長黃齊亞勞動保護司司長胡惠芝還有我們公務人員保障暨培訓委員會安衛防護處處長蔡憲維謝謝"},{"start":21512.435,"end":21536.275,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會工程管理處檢任計政江鵬謝謝還有行政院人事行政總處綜合公約處專門委員陳怡君謝謝內政部國土署都市基礎工程組副組長趙啟鴻謝謝然後國土署建築管理組科長廖志明謝謝消防署綜合企劃組檢任視察溫惠周謝謝"},{"start":21539.461,"end":21562.101,"text":"國防部資源規劃師科技企劃處副處長薛勝吉教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶國民及學前教育署專門委員林如龍經濟部產業發展署副處長潘建成水利署副處長吳明坤"},{"start":21565.024,"end":21580.154,"text":"國營事業管理師科長王啟明還有辰月園區管理局副組長蘇弘毅謝謝中小企業署副組長林玉琦交通部綜合規劃師檢任秘書楊茂森還有"},{"start":21585.265,"end":21604.788,"text":"衛生福利部 國民健康署 社區健康組研究員 麥陽俊心理健康師專門委員 洪佳基數位發展部 數位產業署 檢證市長 黃國源法務部 我們參事 王楠君好 謝謝"},{"start":21607.947,"end":21619.991,"text":"好本次交互之提案請進行提案說明不吝作詢答那現在來請新增提案委員說明提案要職每位委員兩分鐘第一位請王振旭王委員來做說明"},{"start":21629.953,"end":21646.455,"text":"謝謝主席包括感謝在現場的林淑雯委員 林慧琼委員 楊亮委員還有陳昭志委員還有現場所有的官員本席這次針對治安法的提案是以行政院版為基礎但特別增加三個重點"},{"start":21647.336,"end":21664.936,"text":"首先就是为了要确保施工计划书的确实执行我们在第15条之一增加第三项规定要求事业单位一定要指派人员或委托专业的这个机构来监督施工计划书的执行与落实以善信工程业主采购及履约管理的责任"},{"start":21665.356,"end":21686.705,"text":"再來這是第26條當中為了明確事業單位的承攬管理責任我們也增加要求事業單位在交付承攬前應該要對承攬廠商進行風險評估並提供承攬廠商有關案件的工作環境危害因素及應採取工地安全衛生措施等資訊好讓承攬的包商能夠做好公安而且在承攬期間"},{"start":21687.245,"end":21706.814,"text":"事業單位應該要持續監督來確保這個承攬廠商確實落實公安最後考量現在這個營造工程交付承攬的情況越來越複雜所以這個工作場所當然會有混同或共同作業的情形為了要強化工地施工安全的管理我們也在第27條當中"},{"start":21708.375,"end":21732.695,"text":"來要求原事業單位應該要負起工地場所機械設備器具以及人員進出的管制責任希望透過工地門禁管理機制的強化來減少災害的發生同時我們要針對於這個事業單位如果有違反前三項規定的時候都應該有相應的這個法則此外我們也提出附帶的決議要求勞動部應該在執法當中明文處理"},{"start":21734.136,"end":21761.554,"text":"職場霸凌外部調查員的利益迴避的規範以確保職場霸凌調查程序的公平跟公正還有我們也要求勞動部要強化僱主對於第三方不法侵害的防治的義務像如果有病患有侵害到這個醫護人權等情形勞動部也應該要在這個職安法相關的執法或執行裡面強化僱主應採取的這個保護措施以維護勞工的身心健康"},{"start":21762.094,"end":21773.529,"text":"那再麻煩各位委員能夠多支持謝謝好謝謝黃委員的提案說明接下來請提案委員林業勤委員來做說明"},{"start":21781.668,"end":21796.233,"text":"主席各位同仁這次我所提出的職業安全衛生法的修法我要強調這一版的核心精神是要讓我們的防止職場霸凌正式成為法律義務而不是只是行政指導過去十年"},{"start":21796.833,"end":21821.381,"text":"劳动部虽然有定出不法侵害的预防指引但那只是建议没有法律拘束力也就是说雇主就算不做政府也拿他没有办法结果就是劳工在被霸凌之后往往无处申诉也得不到保护我提出的这个版本就是要把这个缺口补起来第一把防止职场不法侵害明确写进我们的立法墓地"},{"start":21821.801,"end":21836.935,"text":"第二 增訂職場霸凌專章清楚定義什麼叫做職場霸凌要求僱主要負起預防的責任要設立申訴機制調查程序 懲處規範不要再模糊了第三 也設立外部的申訴機制"},{"start":21838.376,"end":21854.406,"text":"当加害人是最高负责人的时候或雇主根本不处理时劳工可以直接向地方主管机关申诉情节重大者还能获得法律协助我版本上还有一个特色我们不只在谈肢体安全也把心理跟人格尊严"},{"start":21855.407,"end":21877.029,"text":"纳入到我们的劳动安全的范围霸凌不见得有外伤他一样会毁掉一个人所以这版修法就是要让尊严也成为正常安全的一部分最后明定罚者的部分如果雇主违反我们的防治义务责任的话那最高负责人本身就是加害人最高可以处罚到100万元这不是只是罚钱而是态度的改变"},{"start":21877.729,"end":21896.956,"text":"職場安全不只是防止受害也要防止傷人這是我提出的修法版本的目標讓每一個工作者都能在安全又有尊嚴的職場當中工作還請我們的立法院同仁能夠支持 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林署務委員來做提案說明"},{"start":21905.383,"end":21929.813,"text":"那有鉴於近年的重大職災的發生並沒有明顯的下降特別是大家都知道的營造工程的領域高空墜落等等仍然是這個死傷最嚴重的那其主要的原因其中當然包括工程在規劃設計階段缺乏風險評估機制施工現場的安全衛生管理還有勞工教育的訓練都沒有落實導致勞工有很多的傷亡"},{"start":21930.653,"end":21950.11,"text":"現行的職安法裏面採取的規範顯有不足自使未能有效的嚇阻不肖的雇主事業單位也常有忽視法令的情勢未能確實履行職安法所定的管理責任導致勞工暴露於高風險的作業環境且情節嚴重者恐有公共安全之餘"},{"start":21951.011,"end":21973.702,"text":"進而危及社會大眾的生命安全那為了強化雇主的防災意識和法尊的這個責任然後進而保障我們勞工的這個職業安全我們就這個將最低的刑度及這個提高罰款的金額的必要都給他予以增訂予以修訂所以希望"},{"start":21974.282,"end":21998.835,"text":"在有效的嚇阻之下嚴蠢之下能夠讓我們的職災可以降低好 謝謝現在來進行職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案之主條討論那我們還是以行政院提案調適為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著我們就請委員來表示意見"},{"start":22004.963,"end":22031.319,"text":"好 現在進行主要討論 第一輪討論時 凡該條次無行政院版本且提案委員均不在 則予保留那第二輪則維持現行的這個法條條文或不予增訂那現在進行委員李崑澤版第一條的條文審查 那提案委員上有林月琴委員還有黃秀芳委員主席提案委員如果不在我們是不是不予保留 直接就繼續討論下去"},{"start":22033.186,"end":22057.328,"text":"對啊 是 但是這一條有提案委員在啊 寧願請委員在啊對 就這樣 我才會念一次好 我就保留了啦或是不予處理的 不在不用保留啊他不在他都不在乎了 我們幹嘛要保留條文有在場的委員有在我就處理 然後他不在就保留這樣啦不是啦 不在為什麼要保留"},{"start":22058.936,"end":22087.609,"text":"這邊寫的 這議事組給我的啊又不要照他的念啊很多人只是為了抄一抄而已啊我當然照他的念啊我當然會照他 議事組給我念議事組如果沒有錯我照他的念沒有問題啊那就是你的意思不是照他的念這不是我寫的啊怎麼是我的意思不是啦 就是你這個是議事組寫的你怎麼去講是我的意思我怎麼可能叫議事組去寫這種東西呢提案的當事人不在那你要可以詢問我們委員會說過去都是這麼處理啦那議事組給我這樣我就照這樣念嘛"},{"start":22090.178,"end":22093.483,"text":"請行政單位來做表示意見大家都知道他都不來了我們為什麼要保留請說明"},{"start":22104.892,"end":22124.926,"text":"好 趙偉維各位委員大家好那有關第一條的部分李昆哲委員這個部分希望說在目前的我們的第一條的立法意旨裡面在工作者的安全跟健康裡面加上身心那我們評估的結果其實我們目前的這個立法的意旨這個工作者的安全跟健康範圍比較廣"},{"start":22126.167,"end":22143.008,"text":"因為依照WHO的建議健康的定義是包括到身體 心理跟社會三方面我們建議可以保留現行的行政院版另外林月琴委員提到的在第一段的部分防止職業災害及勞動場所"},{"start":22144.87,"end":22172.151,"text":"這個發生不法侵害的部分那其實在目前的我們防止職業災害的部分在職業災害定義裡面包括機械設備等等安全設施的缺失導致的職業災害或是管理疏失而造成這個不法侵害導致的職業災害都是在這個範圍裡面是我們建議說還是維持目前的現行的條文就是這個不做這個現行條文的修正以上來 請楊委員"},{"start":22174.034,"end":22189.451,"text":"林彥群委員也在場我個人也是覺得維持現行條文是比較好的因為假如說一直以列舉的方式這樣子反而會因為現在 對"},{"start":22195.583,"end":22214.517,"text":"哇 你現在比我會同意大概就是因為現在我們就是用職災來涵蓋職場上的一切傷害看起來是比修正好 抱歉"},{"start":22222.996,"end":22234.704,"text":"這個我沒有意見 因為之前勞動部就有來溝通過 了解那樣的一個我覺得也可以不需要那真的要列的話列很多 那我這邊同意 以上好那我們第一條就維持現行條文 謝謝繼續審查第二條 現有委員"},{"start":22253.53,"end":22265.779,"text":"你一樣是李坤哲委員 范雲委員 林耀勤委員 王玉敏委員還有黃修萬委員我再請行政單位剛剛有委員建議的 你是不是針對現場有委員的提案來做回應比較快 好不好好 謝謝針對"},{"start":22272.452,"end":22298.672,"text":"李坤哲委員就是在裡面連署的有林月琴委員這個部分第一個部分有關於這個職業災害的定義是不是要加上這個心理壓力事件引起的精神或身體的疾病這個部分我們認為跟剛剛的回應一樣是不是說我們是保留在目前的健康裡面範圍已經涵蓋身心這個壓力或精神疾病引起的都是屬於我們的職業災害定義所以這個部分是不是就是維持不動"},{"start":22299.432,"end":22327.444,"text":"那另外的部分有關於這個職場霸凌的定義部分那現在我們有職場霸凌的專章是不是到專章再來處理那再來是有關於這個李燁群委員這邊提到的在定義部分要不要增加事業單位人員的定義那我們考量到我們現在對於事業單位人員其實在現行的本法的第二條裡面對於勞工或是其他的工作者都有明確的定義包括到這個派遣的"},{"start":22328.845,"end":22353.622,"text":"勞工都是適用到我們這個本法的勞工的定義所以是不是這個部分事業單位人員的定義是不是不予甄列但是另外林委員這邊有提到說因為這次職場霸凌特別提到勞動場所是不是把我們現在放在細則裡面的勞動場所 工作場所及作業場所的定義從細則的第五條一列到本法這邊來定義這個部分是在我們這邊是認為是同意的"},{"start":22356.698,"end":22384.067,"text":"來請提案委員因為這邊有前期也有溝通過因為我本來就很堅持希望那個789還是列入然後在細則裡邊所以如果剛剛勞動部已經說同意那我這邊就沒有特別意見以上好那我們第二條就維持現行條文因為他剛剛提到是按照我的那個列列對"},{"start":22395.295,"end":22406.98,"text":"好不好意思修正就是依照林蔚群委員所提的條文修正通過"},{"start":22418.823,"end":22447.769,"text":"他有個第五款照林岳勤委員所提的再修正通過是不是"},{"start":22450.366,"end":22470.98,"text":"應該是這樣嘛第五項我接受拿掉嘛那就變成事實上是變成原來的後來變成等於七八九要保留嘛"},{"start":22473.874,"end":22479.016,"text":"所以依照林月琴委員所提再修正通過就修正通過好繼續審查第四條有台灣民眾黨"},{"start":22499.861,"end":22502.903,"text":"還有兩位王委員跟黃委員都不在現場以台灣民眾黨的部分來請行事機關來做回應"},{"start":22506.724,"end":22527.709,"text":"是 勞動部說明 針對台灣民眾黨提案的部分希望在這個第四條的適用範圍裡面增加了這個軍職人員 公務人員跟教育人員那說明一下 因為目前在這個法裡面並不會提到個別的職業別我們是本法適用於各業 所以各業都適用職安法"},{"start":22530.089,"end":22549.105,"text":"所以現在的教育人員在學校裡面的教育人員也是用子安法那另外公務人員的部分因為在我們國內目前是採這個公務人員跟一般勞工是採分流所以考試院的保訓會也在今年的7月9號修正的公布公務人員保障法"},{"start":22549.645,"end":22575.333,"text":"然後也一併修正的這個發布公務人員執行植物安全衛生及防護辦法裡面已經參考治安法的相關法規相關條文增訂了對於提高對公務人的一些安全衛生的保護強度所以我們認為說在這個部分在我們這邊部分是不是政府機關的公務人員就公共行政院裡面的政府機關的公務人是不是才是優先適用這個公務人保障法"},{"start":22576.013,"end":22591.807,"text":"那另外軍職人的部分在目前如果說軍職人在行業別是屬於這個國防部所產的生產機構或軍醫院研究機構他已經歸屬於製造業 醫療保健業跟研究發展業基本上也都是一體適用職安法"},{"start":22592.387,"end":22612.661,"text":"那其他的話 其他的軍職人因為他的性質不管是軍事訓練或是本身的一個特殊任務就比較屬於這個跟一般勞工不同這個部分我們就是維持沒有特別在裡面匡列進來陳委員等一下 蔡組長你要補充是不是來 請"},{"start":22616.041,"end":22640.115,"text":"报告委员会就是有关台湾民众党党团提案以及王玉明委员王洪威委员等提案把公务人员纳入治安法的这个相关的这个提案的保修会的意见包含了第一个是有关公务人员执行植物安全卫生防护在法制面的部分大院已经在今年6月24号三读通过修正保障法"},{"start":22640.855,"end":22659.27,"text":"其中也明定了公務人員職場安全衛生是授權訂定安慰辦法來加以落實同時也增訂了職場霸凌的定義申訴期限以及違反安慰辦法各個機關必須要依照保障法的規定會有定有相關的罰款以及行政刑法的規定等等"},{"start":22660.131,"end":22686.25,"text":"那同時也明定了由保訓會負責行政法環的裁處以及對於各機關如果是違反安慰辦法的規定可以主動去加以檢查等等的規定那因應保障法的上述修正考試院也在今年7月1號修正施行了我們安慰辦法的規定那其中也增訂了包含植霸防治高風險植物安慰保障足跡監督苛責等等相關的規定"},{"start":22686.75,"end":22712.705,"text":"那過去從7月1號以來的這4個月期間保訓會也參照了職安法跟相關執法的做法陸續訂定了包含健檢要點設施要點執法處理原則抽查要點等相關的執法發布實施那各個機關也依照大院修正的保障法跟安慰辦法的規定積極組成了安全衛生防護單位並為明年1月9號這個施行保障法來完成準備工作"},{"start":22713.385,"end":22737.797,"text":"那其次呢对保幸会对于政府机关公务人员执行植物安全卫生的防护其实跟私部门雇主对于受雇者保障并没有不同但是我们必须要考量到政府机关在业务性质以及工作场域的风险程度确实有别于私部门而且公务人员也负担了保护国家人民的安全以及应尽的服从义务等等这跟私部门在"},{"start":22739.278,"end":22759.114,"text":"雇主跟受雇者之间是牢固的契约关系是有所不同的因此过去行政院跟考试院在公务人员职场安全卫生的法治适用关系就是维持目前的这个双轨制的运作所以保训会是建议在政府机关公务人员部分能够依据大院所通过的保障法修正规定"},{"start":22760.035,"end":22769.143,"text":"让保训会呢持续来落实强化执行那对于治安法的修正条文部分呢就维持行政院目前修正条案的规划以上说明"},{"start":22770.796,"end":22796.748,"text":"好謝謝請陳昭志委員我想謝謝勞動部很努力的說明那事實上我們公務人員跟勞工的這個安全健康保障目前是非常清楚的雙軌制那我們也知道這種公務員跟勞工分流的雙軌制當然不是只有台灣獨有的雖然說跟鄰近國家像日本日本國家公務員的職務安全這個衛生保障體制是類似的也是雙軌制但是"},{"start":22798.109,"end":22823.894,"text":"但是在日本 他們那個像包括公務員的職業災害的認定跟勞工採取完全相同的標準那國家對公務員也附有保護的照顧義務所以從他們的執法所謂的人事院規則實質是他們是實際上運用都可以確定日本國家公務員即使沒有適用安慰法他的安全衛生事項的保障的水準範圍程度和內容"},{"start":22824.634,"end":22849.499,"text":"跟勞工是一致的所以沒有明顯的差距但是我們現有的這個公務人員保障法其實剛剛提到的相關辦法即便說現在在更新這個確認之後但是本質上它還是比較是事後的補救跟消極的保護性質比較沒有前端的預防系統監督職責診斷通報及職業認定等這種制度的基礎"},{"start":22850.92,"end":22874.759,"text":"而且很重要公部門的這個職安業務沒有專責人員都是靠各機關派員兼任處理所以使得公務員在遇到實際狀況的時候職災的時候他往往沒有辦法獲得及時專業有效的協助我想說我必須在這邊說明本黨黨團為什麼是希望能夠把這個公務人員納入的一個基礎跟想法謝謝"},{"start":22878.564,"end":22878.946,"text":"好 謝謝來 請部長回應"},{"start":22886.726,"end":22912.257,"text":"跟包括跟委员们说明因为其实现在第4条条文里面第一句的那个个业其实就是基本上都包括在那里面了所以在这个条文的形式上面其实如果再加上一个这个公务人员君子人员等等的其实在这个条文的形式上面好像有也是有点因为个业就"},{"start":22913.577,"end":22934.372,"text":"各就包括各个部分那现在是因为这个公园保障法他其实是一个特别法的概念所以那这一次今年上半年的时候包括7月1号的时候我想保训会他们其实也做了一个很大很大幅的修订其实也跟"},{"start":22935.192,"end":22957.461,"text":"这个治安法很多相关的要求跟规范其实是高度的拉近了所以我们是希望是说是不是还还是可以维持现有的条文因为的确是在两院的讨论里面公务员的部分还是优先以保障法来去做规划因为确实保障法是一个特别法的角度"},{"start":22958.161,"end":22984.41,"text":"那治安法這邊是一個普通法的角度所以不管是在立法的形式或保障那如果今天有覺得哪些部分的保障需要再拉高的話其實可以在這個各自所屬的這個法規裡面來去做討論或者是來去做處理這可能會是在這整個法制的體制裡面是相對比較一個完整的概念謝謝我再補充一下來 林淳偉先生你好 不好意思"},{"start":22987.302,"end":23014.39,"text":"我不會說我反對但是我要講的是說如果要這樣子納入的話那整部法的修法結構應該不是只有提這一條整部法的修法職業安全衛生法第一條我們明定的保障工作者再來所謂的工作者第二條的定義是指勞工 自營作業者及其他受工作場所指揮負責任指揮監督從事勞動的人等等"},{"start":23015.58,"end":23029.886,"text":"整部法律裡面那你開中名義講都沒有納入公務員那整個公務人員如果按照國家的定義是講他不是由業者受雇於業者的公務員是指這個"},{"start":23031.167,"end":23041.516,"text":"可能是依法令從事公務的人或者是說要有任用資格的等等還有這個是定義而已如果要放進來整部法的修法應該是從定義開始再來這裡職災職業安全衛生的預防的樣態都是針對受僱勞工的樣態去"},{"start":23049.182,"end":23052.764,"text":"去訂定所有的這個安全衛生的相關預防可是公務員的從事的工作的樣態他們所需要的安全衛生的預防的概念絕對跟這一步法原來的法律不一樣而且可能還必須要擴充還必須要增加很多"},{"start":23067.774,"end":23084.466,"text":"所以单纯的只是把这三个三类公务员军工教老师放进来利益是良善的而且我们不会说保障法就够好了保训这个考试院里面他们提的这个保障法怎么样怎么样"},{"start":23085.046,"end":23097.846,"text":"因为为什么人家会反弹就是因为一直以来大家都觉得保护的层次不够所以大家才会反弹说我们要全部不要两轨整合在一轨里面"},{"start":23099.09,"end":23116.679,"text":"可是整合在一轨里面我觉得单纯把这三类放进来就以为是解决了事实上并没有所以我还会建议说如果要放进来的话应该是整步法大修而不是只是把三类的人放进来结果一个老师的他的职业安全卫生需要预防的"},{"start":23117.539,"end":23143.669,"text":"需要避免的他需要采取的防护措施绝对跟劳工不一样一个军人需要的职业安全卫生一个消防员需要的职业安全卫生一个警察需要的职业安全卫生怎么会跟劳工是一样的吗所以你在职业安全卫生的保护预防上面应该要纳入什么项目你都没有放进来然后今天就说这三类放进来就好了可是你在作用管理管制上你都没有对应的法条出来"},{"start":23144.429,"end":23154.678,"text":"那這樣子其實是不行的所以我們的意思是說要這樣做也可以但是要整部全面性的大修而不是只有放這一條進來這樣子"},{"start":23159.112,"end":23176.631,"text":"好謝謝 請陳委員我再補充說明一下第一個我剛剛也很驚訝聽到部長您說各業各業就是包含所有行業部長您是這樣子形容那當然淑媛委員她提的不是沒道理但是我們這裡的用詞是包含"},{"start":23177.799,"end":23191.698,"text":"包含是說包含就是這幾個就是這個個頁尤其是說要納入比如說納入剛剛提到這幾個那上次那個署長您來那個就是治安署署長"},{"start":23192.999,"end":23209.829,"text":"您过来沟通的时候您有提到说教育人员教师是适用在里面的如果我没有记错的话您说教师适用在里面那我们必须承认说现在还是有落差就是双轨但是日本用其他方法把这个双轨的落差去补足了"},{"start":23210.969,"end":23229.864,"text":"他還是有辦法再去補足用執法等等去把它補足那我想我們必須還是要知道這件事是有落差的是有他雖然有特別的法去保障但是他還是有落差所以是不是我對各業還有剛剛就是之前溝通的時候您說有這個教職也包含在裡面我再確認一下好嗎我說明一下因為我們第4條裡面確實是本法適用"},{"start":23237.199,"end":23252.271,"text":"本法適用於各業那剛剛這個公共行政業就是包括政府機關剛剛部長也提到我們在第一條裡面的最後一段有提到其他法律有特別規定 重新規定所以公務人保障法的話基本上就是屬於"},{"start":23253.112,"end":23280.191,"text":"在公共行政業裡面的特別規定那公共行政業裡面的非公務人員當然還是適用職安法這個是本法適用於各業這樣的概念那剛剛講那個各業如果是在教育服務業裡面基本上他的安全衛生會適用職安法但是他如果是涉及到他的救濟或是他的保障事項的話會回到各個法律裡面去處理我們是在講說在職場上的安全衛生是一體適用是這樣"},{"start":23289.251,"end":23309.237,"text":"跟陳委員說明其實我認為大家都很關注包括公務員的這個職業安全衛生的保護可是就像你剛才說的在日本的這個形態裡面如果要把它拉平的話其實是在公務員的法規裡面盡量的去把它給往上拉而"},{"start":23312.165,"end":23333.296,"text":"按照陳委員剛才的講法的話就是一樣是在雙軌裡面可是覺得如果哪邊差別的話會在那個地方的差別想辦法大家去把它給拉近或者是盡量拉起可是現在當然要因為現在在執安法裡面就是按照執安法的邏輯執安法是一個普通法公務員他有他的這個特別法的"},{"start":23334.036,"end":23354.702,"text":"保障法所以公務員是就是是用保障法來做相關的規定的那這個保障法裡面有很多相關的訂定也是比較符合整個公務員的體制的法規再去處理這個問題的那我自己認為不是不能夠把它拉起可是這個是不是要在公務員主管的法規裡面來去把它處理給拉起或者是提高"},{"start":23356.641,"end":23370.673,"text":"而不一定是好像變成用一個這樣子放到這個條紋裡面那放到這個條紋裡面是不是就能夠解決問題因為即便放到這個條紋裡面還是一樣保障這個公務員保障法它還是特別法還是優先適用的"},{"start":23374.946,"end":23397.682,"text":"反正部长您就是也认知说是有差距的目前是双轨下是我们保护的程度范围内容是有水准上的差距跟我说不一定水准上的差距但是因为它是不太一样的体制在这不太一样体制在治安法里面很多它是处理是牢固关系"},{"start":23398.783,"end":23426.774,"text":"他的關係是一個勞動關係可是公務員的體制就像剛剛保訓會說的他有一個公務員體制裡面在這個公務員法規上面的一個關係這個也許等於可以那個保訓會可以再做更清楚的說明是在這關係下面去長出保障的做法那我認為拉起怎麼樣去拉起大家可以一起來努力但是就像你剛才說日本的做法他是在公務員的法規裡面去處理讓他盡量的去拉起"},{"start":23427.674,"end":23449.375,"text":"那我知道现在这个保训会其实这一段时间这几个月也做了很多这样子的努力也许可以请保训会再把他们的努力做的更多的细节的说明这样子如果说基本上往这个方向走往这个方向走就算你双轨但实质上的大家得到的这个保护的范围强度"},{"start":23450.499,"end":23471.048,"text":"是靠近的那我想我可以接受啦如果是往這個方向去走那保修會應該今天沒有出席嗎有出席是有出席剛剛就蔡處長她回應你的你可以說明蔡處長洪部長好像很有把握的這個覺得是就是往這樣子方向去做麻煩"},{"start":23472.756,"end":23499.032,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是從保障法修正三讀通過之後以及安慰辦法7月1號施行之後其實保訓會在這四個月期間陸陸續續訂定了相當多的執法包含了我剛剛有講過的我們的健康檢查的要點然後我們過去在安慰辦法中其實參照了很多執安法的條文去訂定但是都沒有像執安法"},{"start":23500.453,"end":23526.953,"text":"在母法的下面还有很多相应的执法去做相关的指引跟说明那这一次我们在安慰办法的下面我们还另外再增订了包含了各机关应该要符合的设施要点然后各机关对于危害物的处理要符合一定的规范以及执法处理原则然后从明年开始保训会以及各个机关也会开始依照我们所定定的抽查要点去进行"},{"start":23528.374,"end":23550.184,"text":"职业安全卫生的抽查包含了定期抽查跟发生重大事故灾害的专案抽查等等那透过这些执法跟实际上的这个监督跟科者的这样的去执行相信可以在政府机关的公务人员在执行职务安全卫生的这一块能够更落实保障那当然"},{"start":23551.244,"end":23568.898,"text":"我们整个公务人员的安全卫生的保障的设计其实像是一个层级化的保障概念在公部门中其实像是医院学校它就是相较于私部门是很相近的风险所以它就是全部适用治安法的规定"},{"start":23569.398,"end":23595.036,"text":"但是至于其他的政府机关其实他在承受职业灾害的这样的风险的程度其实跟私部门是有很明显的不足这个从治安法的相关条文都可以很明显的看得出来所以也就是我们在这个部分会是建议说在政府机关的公务人员还是依照保障法跟安慰办法的规定的原因那当然保训会也会持续的在这个"},{"start":23596.477,"end":23623.34,"text":"保障法跟安慰辦法相關的執法盡量的跟執安法相關規定去做拉平以上說明好了請陳教授委員謝謝保訓這邊的說明那既然就是說在執法上或在做法上是盡量往這個方向去做那樣態不一樣那我在最後雖然是不相關我還是提醒一下警消的樣態是跟一般公園不一樣"},{"start":23624.461,"end":23651.538,"text":"你們一直不讓警消組工會啊不讓就是說他的風險非常高啊所以就是你們的原則應該要適用到每個狀況不是說為立法方便或整個管理上的方便就覺得有時候就拿這個重點然後那個重點又丟了希望你們記得樣態不一樣但是也有個別危險的警消組工會洪部長你要放在心裡頭主消那個警消組工會那這條我就沒有其他意見了謝謝"},{"start":23653.203,"end":23679.449,"text":"好 謝謝那我們第四條就維持現行條文通過再繼續審查第六條一樣有台灣民眾黨所提還有還有 劉俊國委員所提的修正動議第五案來 先請刑事機關做說明"},{"start":23681.479,"end":23702.77,"text":"好 勞動部說明就這個台灣民眾黨及各個委員所提的針對第六條的相關的提案我們檢視多事物跟這個職場霸凌有關那現在行政院版已經有增訂的職場霸凌防事專章那我們是建議說這些相關提案是不是到我們專章來做討論那現行第六條就可以維持這個現行條文"},{"start":23704.651,"end":23723.407,"text":"那其中另外有林月琴委員這邊連署的部分也提到剛剛講說在健康再加上身心兩個字剛剛已經有一併說明是不是這個部分我們就建議不要甄列這個身心兩個字就維持這個健康的用詞 上來請陳教授委員"},{"start":23725.991,"end":23746.397,"text":"這一份就是有關指引的部分因為這個比較像建議你看讀起來他沒有法律的這個強制力就先訂出所執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引指引本身就是一個指引他沒有法律強制力那裡面做的是比較像是說事件處理流程"},{"start":23747.54,"end":23769.166,"text":"很像在事件處理的流程只能讓公司參考那沒有辦法強制他們去照做所以在實際的情況下員工被職場霸凌後有時候往往是很難提出申訴得到公正的調查或心理上的一些安慰跟修復我擔心的或我們提出的重點是在這個指引就是指引麻煩來請部長"},{"start":23775.734,"end":23793.613,"text":"那个跟专员说明其实因为这次针对霸凌的问题职场霸凌的问题我们不是只是要多一句话而已而是我们其实是直接定了一个专章所以关于不管是申诉调查或处理接下来在专章里面"},{"start":23794.153,"end":23814.907,"text":"都會有很清楚的明文的明定跟相對應授權的執法來去處理所以因為是基於這個原因所以我們認為其實在第6條其實不用再特別把這個部分給擺進去因為我們到接下來專章的部分就有很多重要的條文會來處理這個問題了這樣子"},{"start":23817.904,"end":23835.709,"text":"好 我提到一個修正動議你要不要看一下在第二項第三款是 勞動部來做這個部分那個昭偉這邊有提到一個修正動議那針對我們目前第二項的這個第三款在我們目前增訂的職場霸凌專章以後"},{"start":23837.19,"end":23854.144,"text":"這個執行職務因他人遭受不法侵害的部分會比較偏向是這個目前很多外界希望有第三方的包括顧客消費者或乘客的這些這個不法侵害的部分那第三款會這個條文目前還是維持住但是大家"},{"start":23855.365,"end":23880.462,"text":"很多委員希望說是不是可以讓他的這個申訴調查處理程序更加清楚所以召委提到的這個部分是不是在第三款增加一個執行職務因他人行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害之預防並建立申訴調查其處理程序我們經過評估認為是可以的 謝謝好還有沒有補充 來 請您委員"},{"start":23882.645,"end":23906.076,"text":"我聽不懂 因為我們現在講的譬如說這個不是勞僱雙方這個講的是說你可能勞僱雙方以外的他者然後要納入這個植栽預防的你必須要顧主要有的這個設備或措施裡面可是你第三 這個是第三款"},{"start":23907.369,"end":23921.358,"text":"第三款讲执行职务可是顾客又不是执行职务执行职务因他人行为遭受身体或精神不法侵害之预防可是这个顾客是这个定义里面执行职务之人吗"},{"start":23924.292,"end":23949.984,"text":"跟委員說明因為這第二項它是提到這個對顧主對下列事項應妥為規劃採取必要的安全衛生措施那這個執行職務就是指這個勞工他在執行職務那如果說像我們一般在消費者對面 他要面對像銀行他要面對這個他的客戶那有時候現在反映說有一些客戶會咆哮等等但是我們講的是說"},{"start":23954.206,"end":23971.775,"text":"對沒錯這個應該是不修也是可以不修就有了我們原來條文就是有比如說外部顧客或第三方的民眾或是急診室裡面暴力的醫生暴力的醫護人員那為什麼還要修這個不是本來就有僱主的預防責任的嗎"},{"start":23972.435,"end":23992.974,"text":"是 我們修不是 我們只是強化現在在附屬法規裡面要建立這個申訴調查處理程序這個部分把它更明文規定 其實這個目前在那第三款要 那其他款不用嗎第三款要第三款比較特殊 對 確實比較特殊 對喔 好吧 那意思是說照他們"},{"start":23994.611,"end":24016.153,"text":"其他委員的版本為什麼不可以你們是說申訴調查那他們是加一個處理程序基本上一樣是跟這個目前民眾黨的提案跟這個王玉平委員提案文字上是一樣的對啊那就照他們就好了"},{"start":24019.182,"end":24047.744,"text":"我講一下不好意思因為我要跟趙執委員說一下不好意思因為其實剛剛你的那個條文其實也是在不法侵害的部分因為我剛剛一聽的時候我把它聽成是霸凌所以我剛才說如果是霸凌的話就在霸凌專章可是如果因為這個你們民眾黨的條文也是在不法侵害需要相關的這個申訴調查跟程序的話其實也是跟這個趙偉的這個提案是類似的所以我們都認為是可以來來採訪的就照他們的"},{"start":24049.145,"end":24077.947,"text":"第三款就照他 第二項第三款就照他們的嘛好 謝謝所以怎樣民眾黨的一樣所以我們第六條就照"},{"start":24079.711,"end":24095.647,"text":"劉建國委員所提的修正統一及民政黨委員所提的條文來通過繼續審查行政研版第九條還有委員完正序 林淑芬 劉建國所提"},{"start":24103.312,"end":24125.512,"text":"條文草案我們來討論請行政機關來先做說明是 勞動部先就這個第九條的部分第九條部分現在大概所有的委員都跟行政院版相同那有一個部分就委員劉建國這邊大概部分的文字跟院版稍微有一點這個不一樣那不過"},{"start":24127.611,"end":24145.69,"text":"整個立法的意旨跟精神方向都一樣只是我們現在在行政院版的部分對這個產銷資料有在進一步甄列有關產銷資料應包括的內容保存連線跟其他應遵循事項由中央署委員會定之建議依照行政院版來 請陳昭志委員"},{"start":24147.401,"end":24174.695,"text":"好 謝謝主席這一條對於勞動部指定用在防護勞工安全的機械設備或器具的製造者或輸入者要求要建立及保存產銷資料原則上我們非常的支持但是我要請職安署先釐清一個重要的問題我應該那天溝通的時候我也有表達我先以去年我揭露台電大林電廠安裝材質不符合的廠商像職安署申請這個就材質不符合但職安署申請TS標章"},{"start":24175.735,"end":24197.083,"text":"不合格的防爆電氣管配件一案那到目前為止 治安署已經一整年都沒有依法開罰那這些業者過去生產是沒有保存資料啦因為也沒有規定啦 我也了解那未來修法通過以後會變成他們拿來抗變的理由啊因為那些不合格的防爆管配件都還安裝在電廠裡"},{"start":24199.224,"end":24224.551,"text":"那他們可能會說過去主管局沒有要求嘛所以這個品質偷查的時候他就不能夠作為開罰理由這一點我想請治安署做個釐清因為他的危險性是存在的啊他等於是立法的空窗期啊那他已經存在那我也有質詢很久又都沒有被被理會啊沒有被處理可以嗎部長還是署長可以說明一下嗎這部分怎麼辦"},{"start":24225.782,"end":24243.835,"text":"好跟委員報告大概這個部分委員長期關心這個有關於這個防爆管配件他的這個這個有關於材質的部分跟強度部分那其實這個也涉及到很多廠商的一些他的產品那也涉及到這個標準標準局的這個國家標準"},{"start":24245.396,"end":24271.765,"text":"所以目前都是按照程序還在持續在進行這些法律上的一些疑義在釐清當中所以也一直在持續跟標準局等等還有我們外部的專家學者在召開會議當中那至於說委員剛剛提到說修法後會不會當作抗辯理由基本上是不會的我們是在補強未來在這個這個廠商要有一些產銷資料的留存所以這個案子目前都還在進行當中"},{"start":24275.835,"end":24303.562,"text":"署長您現在立這個法我們覺得非常OK因為任何東西都一樣包括藥品的效期的安全這個都要有原始的這個你生產的產品要存留要保存等等才會有所謂的當年我們為什麼我也跟你講客流感為什麼當年藥不夠大概一直延長它不是有它是有科學根據的就當時生產的那一批繼續去了解它的這個穩定性安全性等等那現在我講的是這個已經知道材質不符合了"},{"start":24304.69,"end":24330.838,"text":"你們驗出來是強度不夠啊用自己目前國家的標準是不夠所以你們現在又說要幫他們開會找說國外有沒有類似可以的那我會覺得其實很多人知道會擔心說這個等於有一點幫已經好像不想再逆轉的事情去幫他護航啊因為大部分就這兩家那就是那兩家在包啊那所有的工程都他們在包啊現在他們又放在這個"},{"start":24331.778,"end":24357.19,"text":"你不要用別的東西沒問題就防爆管配件看到都嚇死人了防爆管配件材質不對不合格那你說在研究在研議那可能就是要用更寬鬆的法律讓他過關啊就是說我現在還是問這一段你要怎麼處理那今天你們的修法這個大家都要支持啊因為過去可能就是沒有力到這個部分讓他們有一個漏洞可以"},{"start":24359.315,"end":24384.671,"text":"他跟你說我原來的這個就不見了我的那個東西不見我沒有辦法我們要依法用這個來去再做重新的檢驗所以要找別的方式來證明所以署長你知道我在講什麼所以這個部分你要怎麼積極處理讓大家安心因為他還在 他還在電廠裡他還在電廠裡面而且是永久性的就一直放在電廠裡"},{"start":24386.499,"end":24400.818,"text":"啊等爆炸的時候我也跟你講啊爆炸的時候什麼證據都沒有啦萬一他的因為強度不夠防爆力不夠結果爆炸了那更正好開脫啊因為爆炸後什麼東西都不見了啊"},{"start":24401.997,"end":24430.472,"text":"那這件事是不是要稍微看怎麼處理好 謝謝委員謝謝委員支持這個條文那剛剛委員提到這個強度確實我們現在就朝這個方向在做這個到底的強度有沒有達到這個是目前積極在進行中 謝謝這個進度就麻煩你知道我一直追就麻煩我們再把進度再給委員 是那主席我對這條法條沒有其他意見好 謝謝"},{"start":24431.892,"end":24458.545,"text":"好那我們第9條就依照行政院現行條例來通過繼續來處理第15條之一由委員王正旭所提還有林淑穩委員劉建國委員好請還有修正動議的修正動議的第一案"},{"start":24462.016,"end":24490.499,"text":"蘇青不在三四還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議第四案那請行政機關先做說明好 勞動部說明針對剛剛有提到林委員的部分大概只有第一項的文字差異方向上都是跟行政院版一致建議還是依照這個行政院版那至於說王振訊委員提到的部分增加了第三項"},{"start":24491.34,"end":24511.15,"text":"那這個部分確實在目前事業單位在施工期間他必須要指派專人或委託專業機構來監督查核他的施工廠商是不是確實依照施工計畫來採取安全衛生的預防設備跟措施所以這方面的這個提案在行政院這邊是支持的"},{"start":24511.79,"end":24538.867,"text":"那配合這個第三項新增那第四項在授權的部分也要增列這個有關於人員跟專業機構的資考條件以及監督查證的內容等等那至於剛剛有提到劉建國委員提到的離職動議的部分針對第一項這個第一項的部分要著作文字的修正後來我們也發現確實在目前的一些文字跟用詞會造成一些疑慮所以我們也是同意說依照這個"},{"start":24540.948,"end":24567.458,"text":"劉建國委員這邊的一個修正動議來通過來 請光正旭委員好 謝謝主席那先針對剛剛第9條他都說要通過到底是行政院版的修訂或者是原條文 那可能要再確定一下第9條是依照維持現行條文通過現行條文還是行政院版修正行政院版"},{"start":24574.355,"end":24586.121,"text":"那第15條之一 這是條新增的部分那現在剛剛署長也已經做了進一步的說明那有關於增進這個再增訂第三項的部分主要是因為我們也瞭解"},{"start":24587.041,"end":24599.495,"text":"這個事業單位在這個施工之前就必須要能夠確定在這個法條裡面要依施工計畫出來確實執行並且指派人員或委託專業這個機構來做監督跟查證我想"},{"start":24604.08,"end":24630.792,"text":"這部分它的重要性剛剛署長所說明大家也應該可以認同因為我們也知道如果只有讓施工單位去處理而沒有事業單位來承擔起所有的責任的話而且是有好的方式來承擔的話恐怕無法讓整個施工單位在執行的過程當中沒有很好的品質保證所以這部分請各位能夠來幫忙支持"},{"start":24632.732,"end":24661.098,"text":"第四項的部分就是針對前三項一定規模以上的工程等等的內容還要包括人員或專業機構的資格條件監督以及查證內容等等都需要有一個執法來做訂定由中央儲管機關來處理相關的一些內容所以希望透過這樣的這個修正的條文內容可以讓在五十五之一的部分可以更完整 以上報告"},{"start":24663.308,"end":24688.336,"text":"好來再請陳教授委員謝謝這條條文本身是沒有問題曾經這樣的條文但是他跟剛剛我談的第9條有點類似因為這個勞工這個營建業他的就是高空墜落這種例子是一直有存在那這個立法當中這個又是空窗期這個這個這個制度的空窗期間你們要怎麼做就是要怎麼做"},{"start":24689.961,"end":24716.11,"text":"立這個法就表示說過去沒有立這個法嘛就要補強了那現在怎麼辦呢眼前怎麼辦呢怎麼來處理呢跟我剛剛第9條的意思是一樣好麻煩謝謝跟委員說明其實15之一是這一次治安法修法裡面非常重要的一個突破也就是我們把所謂的預防的概念更延伸到在前端規劃的時候就說風險評估"},{"start":24718.854,"end":24747.44,"text":"那因為要做風險評估其實希望讓規劃者或設計者他就應該要有為到時候施作的時候怎麼樣子可以降低風險的概念跟設計的規劃進去其實這一條的條文是非常重要其實我們也是參考好幾個國家其實它都有同樣的概念那剛剛委員問的問題我的最簡單的回答就是那我們真的希望可以趕快通過我們希望可以趕快三讀"},{"start":24748.36,"end":24769.266,"text":"那因为尽快的三读其实尽快的通过其实就可以让这个要求事业单位他要来规划风险的这个工作可以尽早的进行当然我们现在假设有还有假设还有一点时间的空窗期的话我们也会加强来跟业者来去做这样的宣导或者让他知道我们接下来要立这样的法大家赶快做这样的准备"},{"start":24769.966,"end":24781.924,"text":"具備這樣子的專業的能力評估的能力這事情我們會盡力來做可是剛剛委員問的問題的話我認為因為這很關鍵我們就是希望能夠盡快的能夠來通過那讓這個法制的洞可以把它補起來 謝謝"},{"start":24785.133,"end":24812.765,"text":"基本上立法當然是好的啦OK啦那你的說明也大概也只能是這樣子所以其實上就是要趕快去盤點你覺得這個法很關鍵但是這個行業存在這麼久了那這個風險我們也都一直看到啊所以老實說立法太晚了啦太慢了啦當然大家想辦法讓他沒有人反對的可是所以還是那句話嘛在這個當中這個當中就請行政部門啊看怎麼樣去監督或什麼是要求啊"},{"start":24813.405,"end":24841,"text":"沒有法還是可以要求啊對吧沒有法還是可以要求啊好好謝謝主席我沒有其他意見了謝謝好請說明就是說我們認為第15之一應該是可以依照這個召委建國委員的這個還有王振興委員的提案來通過謝謝好那我們第15條之一就依照王振興委員及劉建國委員所提的修正通過繼續審查"},{"start":24843.106,"end":24861.157,"text":"行政院所提22條委員王振旭主席對不起剛剛那15條之一那個邱振東 廖偉強委員也有提嘛都一樣嘛對 那廖偉強委員也有提"},{"start":24862.672,"end":24876.659,"text":"因為剛剛 剛剛開始要開會的時候有講如果委員有到我們就處理 委員沒有到我們就不處理所以剛剛我在宣讀的時候因為有提案的委員他沒來我就沒有再賭了是這樣不過提的是一樣的 對啦抱歉 我們現在處理這個行政院所提第22條還有委員王振旭 委員林淑芬 委員劉建國"},{"start":24895.782,"end":24900.51,"text":"好那我們先請行政單位來做說明"},{"start":24901.752,"end":24929.802,"text":"好 勞動部說明目前22條所有的委員的版本除了剛剛有提到林月琴委員有連署的部分有出現了身心健康的部分我們建議這個身心就不要出現那其他部分的話都跟院版一致所以這個部分是條文上是目前是跟院版一致所以我們是建議維持行政院版那另外好像有其他的附帶決議的好來請王志勳委員"},{"start":24931.329,"end":24951.731,"text":"是因為這22條部分應該是沒什麼特別的需要再追加意見的地方不過我們的附帶決議裡面是希望能夠針對醫療人員或者是針對公衛人員能夠在這裡面也扮演一定的角色所以這部分也可以請大家再考量一下"},{"start":24955.367,"end":24981.087,"text":"來 請署長回應是 這個確實我們這個部分未來再配合這個母法過了以後我們那個附屬法規會把這個公衛師也納入這個勞工健康服務相關人員之一同意好好 那我們22條是不是就依照行政院所提的條文通過"},{"start":24982.452,"end":25003.483,"text":"好謝謝 繼續我們來審查二十二條之一因為提案的文都不在現場啦二十二條之一二十三我都有簽署 我都有連署有連署嗎 可以做說明 對不起有修正東西是不是他說有二十二條之一"},{"start":25011.439,"end":25032.603,"text":"22條之一 這個是那個他單獨拉出來的已經發了李昆澤委員的22條之一跟他的22條之一那個跟這個行政院版的22條之一是不一樣的要先審這個那個陳昭志委員 你要你所提的22條之一可能在第二章之後啦 第二章之後好 謝謝對對 這兩個因為對對對 先審22條跟22條對 兩位都不在 我們就不允"},{"start":25035.496,"end":25051.293,"text":"這不會處理好那我們繼續來審查第二張名第二張之行政院對不起我已經宣讀了我不是宣布了"},{"start":25060.99,"end":25077.529,"text":"是這個那個嘛 你們自己搞清楚啊你一個講上面 一個講下面 我不曉得啊對 這邊也是22之1啊對 你們要講這個 還是講這個嘛不是啦 你們自己看清楚再講好不好你們要講這個 還是講這個嘛"},{"start":25084.588,"end":25108.544,"text":"對啦我知道因為他這個我們這個表應該大家都有啦他上面就有一個22條之一過章名第二章之後又有一個22條之一啊他們下次也搞不清楚要講哪一個22條之一啊我們我們就照院版審查其他委員跟院版不一樣的我們就整理出來那條文跟後面一樣我們就到後面再討論"},{"start":25110.461,"end":25122.755,"text":"就是照院板在審查的一直都是這樣子啊我知道了"},{"start":25127.654,"end":25144.445,"text":"現在是李昆澤委員自己有一個22-1嘛我剛剛已經針對李昆澤跟黃秀安委員所提的22條-1已經宣布不予處理了那我們過第二個章名之後又有一個22條-1他現在議事組人員是在講後面的22條-1他在擔心我剛剛宣讀的22條-1我們在處理這個事情來 先這位所提的章名第二章"},{"start":25155.737,"end":25183.144,"text":"之一號職場霸凌之防制還有在場委員有王振旭委員 林淑雯委員劉建國委員好 就這樣 那請行政機關來做說明好 勞動部說明目前在場委員提案的針對這個張明都跟行政院版一致就建議維持行政院版本就是職場霸凌之防制"},{"start":25184.534,"end":25204.283,"text":"好 各位委員 針對張明有沒有什麼意見可以那我們就照行政院所提的 所提案來通過那繼續審查行政院所提22條之一另有委員王振旭 林淑芬劉建國"},{"start":25213.834,"end":25240.324,"text":"好另外有一個修正動議第6案是還有第8案還有幻雲委員所提的修正動議好請行政機關先做說明目前在場委員的版本都跟行政院版一致所以建議這個目前22條之一是不是維持行政院版好21"},{"start":25244.326,"end":25245.589,"text":"來 請"},{"start":25247.265,"end":25273.783,"text":"說明一下就是因為考慮各企業內部他對於不法侵害的事件處理能力專業能力和資源分布不盡相同所以為了確保這個職業者的正義能夠落實所以我們覺得應該是在第三項可以明定政府應該建立全國性的不法侵害防治及調查人才資料庫那外聘調查專家資料庫也可以這麼說整合心理資商 勞動法律人資管理等跨領域的專業人員提供企業"},{"start":25274.784,"end":25301.622,"text":"在面對職場霸凌等不法侵害事件時能夠取得專業協助確保這個事件處理過程公正客觀與專業啦這個可不可以放到22條之二啦22條之二有另外在講霸凌調查啊你要建立一個專家名單資料庫不是資料庫是哪些是專業的人可以來進行協助調查那就放到22條之二啊如果可以放到22條之二"},{"start":25303.583,"end":25324.98,"text":"那也就是放進去那當然我們也支持啊那部長要回應來好 趙委員那個不好意思因為剛剛陳委員剛剛講的是不法侵害可是因為我們這一條其實在處理的是職場霸凌所以職場霸凌跟不法侵害就不法侵害就像大家說醫院會有這個醫師被病人做攻擊"},{"start":25326.321,"end":25351.594,"text":"那是不法侵害那是因為這一張其實在處理的就是職場霸凌的部分從張明這就是職場霸凌的部分那剛才在委員剛才講的部分其實應該是我們是可以放到不法侵害相關的指引因為我們在前面在應該是第6條的部分其實也把不法侵害相關的調查程序等等等預防其實放在那邊那其實可以應該是如果需要更規範的更清楚的話也可以放在他的指引但是因為這邊是職場霸凌"},{"start":25353.49,"end":25372.664,"text":"刚刚我提到的这个精神这个可以放进去吗放得进去吗你放的如果是霸凌就放到22之2吧霸凌在22之2我们也有提相关的观念调查啦那如果你要放在不法侵害的话因为它范围就不是霸凌而已不法侵害的范围比霸凌还更广更大"},{"start":25373.184,"end":25394.955,"text":"所以部長才建議你說如果你應該用不法侵害這幾個字的字眼那就放到第六條裡面去訂定執行或是訂執法的時候放進去那如果你願意的話把他修正成這個職場霸凌也需要有一些專家名單作為資料庫讓私人企業他要外部調查的時候可以知道長老現在是專業的話那就是22條之二他就是限縮在職場霸凌的話22條之二"},{"start":25399.017,"end":25425.974,"text":"但是精神一樣所以22條之一跟之二 之二我等一下也是會提就是對於辦事 我們有一些還要加迴避的規定對啦 迴避的規定我們支持但是那個都是之二啦 之一就不是談這個 之一是講說你要訂定這個防治措施而已那你整個發生之後 事情發生之後要調查程序要怎麼進行 要怎麼規範那就是之二 我們到之二再來放進去就好了"},{"start":25426.734,"end":25448.959,"text":"所以你所謂委員就是你剛剛我提到提的22條資料庫我的說明你覺得可以放在別的地方但還是可以收的進來當然是之二不是在之一那勞動部這邊架構的問題剛剛陳委員提到那個人才資料庫實際上在我們22條之二已經在立法說明講很清楚了實際上我們也開始在展開了所以這個"},{"start":25449.739,"end":25468.226,"text":"我們是建議不需要到法居民訂那行政機關就可以處理現在已經開始在建立這個相關培訓相關的一個人才了沒關係 如果他不放心放到立法說明有時候就是立法說明欄放進去要求他一定要進行的程序要做什麼你放到立法說明因為母法不可哩哩哩哩那些"},{"start":25470.007,"end":25490.258,"text":"瑣碎的健行的程序一般都是講說授權給他們可是你不放心他的授權等一下沒有訂出來怎麼辦啊所以如果你在立法說明欄要求你的授權範圍要涵蓋什麼內容涵蓋什麼內容的話在立法說明欄可以放進去啦那如果說你每一條母法都要把所有執行健行的程序和細節都放進去的話那一條母法熱熱騰騰大家都看不上去啦"},{"start":25494.52,"end":25514.979,"text":"那我們先解決之一的問題之確定以後我們再進行22-2的問題我們也支持要利益迴避啦我們在立法說明本來就寫了22-2是有寫如果你說霸凌的部分都有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫"},{"start":25519.795,"end":25543.758,"text":"二十二條之一 歡迎委員這邊是有修正的動議包括他在第一項裡面的第四行本來是說原來的文字是各方面的言辭或行為致其身心健康遭受危害就是說有這樣的職場霸凌導致他的身心健康遭受危害"},{"start":25544.238,"end":25565.256,"text":"可是基本上我們是希望這個工作環境本身帶來的這個影響所以就調整如這個修正動力內容所寫到的我稍微再順一下那再請官員這邊也做一下回應就是第22條之一本法所稱職場霸凌只勞工於勞動場"},{"start":25566.757,"end":25585.3,"text":"所執行職務因其事業單位人員利用職務或權勢等關係於業務上必要且合理範圍持續以冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱或其他不當之言詞或行為自有害勞工之工作環境"},{"start":25586.181,"end":25605.393,"text":"危害其身心健康重點就是因為這樣的部分讓這個損害到勞工的工作環境最終危害到其身心健康就會比原來會致其身心健康遭受危害相對來講是比較重視這個工作環境的霸凌的內涵以上說明謝謝"},{"start":25606.594,"end":25619.224,"text":"這個最終有害的工作環境最終也是要危害他的身心健康這句話他的意思也是一樣那跟原條文大家行政院版大家的版本都一樣的意思我的意思是這樣子抱歉我比較性急"},{"start":25620.489,"end":25634.247,"text":"他說是導致一個工作環境有害然後有害最後就是危及勞工身心健康所以重點還是勞工的身心健康嘛身心健康本的危害本來就放進來了那你再多那一句我不曉得是什麼意思這樣啦要不要再解釋"},{"start":25638.772,"end":25665.905,"text":"那請署長確實這個有害工作環境其實就是導致老公身心健康的一個危害到老公身心健康那我們認為加上這個文字其實對本原本的這個定義是沒有影響的我們是同意可以放進去的所以就是依照你們行政院所提的草案就 提案通過嘛對不對那不好意思立法說明的時候也增加剛剛我提到的那些"},{"start":25667.796,"end":25687.667,"text":"22又有霸凌的部分啦要再做好等一下跟委員說明喔因為因為22條之一比較我們在處理的是定義啦定義然後把不同的規模的企業給做了一些分類不會不會不會不會不會"},{"start":25693.314,"end":25698.656,"text":"因為沒有那個資料庫我們很多地方政府也會很痛苦啦所以我也我們也希望能夠建立啦對"},{"start":25701.798,"end":25725.388,"text":"我再跟你分享一下因为我们就是说他答应我们本来这个母法要授权给他们去定定施行细则相关的执法但是他有时候答应我们可是在执法定定的时候没有放进去所以你怕他跳票嘛那所以你就在立法的说明栏里面指定一定要放进去的是什么放进去了"},{"start":25725.708,"end":25754.989,"text":"我看到部長點頭在立法說明欄放進去了你就不要怕他跳票不用怕了就是這樣子好有你一句話好謝謝不是就講事實主管委員一句話我在這裡比較久所以我給你分享不要被騙了要怎麼不要被騙了其實我們都被騙過了啦非常感謝好那你又是依照那個王勝旭委員剛剛提到的這個修正一通過是依照"},{"start":25756.741,"end":25767.946,"text":"你是說范雲嗎來 休息十分鐘啦你是要照行政院版大家的版本還是要照范雲的版本蛤好啦 現在你是在睡覺 你累了嗎蠻牛給他上"},{"start":25791.134,"end":25797.173,"text":"誒 班長好幸會誒 誒 給我們直三硬綁一下"},{"start":25838.841,"end":25861.453,"text":"每個委員都可以在這坐著吃,我就沒話說,你不來我們都在認真。還在問人家的好在哪?問人家的好在哪?問人家的好在哪?"},{"start":25865.776,"end":25882.841,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":25895.071,"end":25915.31,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":25932.418,"end":25938.53,"text":"上去我倫大會過來上去我倫大會過來"},{"start":26024.166,"end":26046.112,"text":"現在人走歷些些,一群人都沒來,我們在這裡討論半天,浪費時間。對啊,就知道啊,就是說,只有我敢不擔責。我可以跟同仁講說,市委員還是發言,是啊。"},{"start":26053.241,"end":26079.613,"text":"你也要和我一起做還有人浪費我們時間嗎?你說三個禁錮?我覺得比較控制我控制你嗎?你記得嗎?我跟他見面就太熱鬧了我們是在2013年的時候對"},{"start":26086.053,"end":26091.109,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":26096.377,"end":26122.642,"text":"我知道整個架構大家都知道的那個韓國那個架構是另外另外另一個端端對 所以那個零電子爆炸的時候重判老闆15年就是重大危害企業的罰罰就是 但是那個對我助理有在講說那個最真正的主宰一場"},{"start":26127.02,"end":26129.886,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":26140.64,"end":26162.904,"text":"阿咪說你練習了,你才會做到這樣那你來幫忙,要不然你要在路頭找個位子,來跟我們找個位子不是啦,沒關係,你現在就開始做,做到...做這麼近喔?這有沒有人做?不是啦,有人,你要坐那裡坐那裡坐那裡就好嘛"},{"start":26180.188,"end":26182.61,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":26279.974,"end":26281.197,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":26307.56,"end":26307.62,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":26349.638,"end":26353.001,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":26416.257,"end":26416.338,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":26476.854,"end":26485.78,"text":"好我們繼續開會我們剛剛審到審到是原本所提22條之一還有多位委員來請做最後的一個確認你不是有溝通"},{"start":26506.298,"end":26523.998,"text":"主席可以針對22-1發言嗎可以啊 可以啊還在處理22條之一那個22-1剛剛還沒機會解釋因為我們有跟勞動部討論那勞動部其實也接受這個建議就是霸凌 職場霸凌的定義"},{"start":26524.719,"end":26546.008,"text":"我們應該要看的是他的結果而不是只是看他身心健康有沒有遭受傷害那所以呢這邊有我跟林月琴委員還有王振旭委員還有昭緯一起連署的部分希望能夠增加致有害勞工之工作環境為什麼"},{"start":26546.408,"end":26575.404,"text":"因為不能夠因為一個人身心比較健康他拿不到就是譬如說身心被傷害的證明然後那樣子霸凌的存在其實就是合理的那這個部分其實現在在教育的職場還有日本的跟職場霸凌有關的專法那其實都有相關的案例那兒童權利公約的國際審查也是提到說體罰那如果你只有講說一定要證明他身心嚴重侵害"},{"start":26576.524,"end":26595.675,"text":"那對於一個身心比較健康或者是一個身心比較容易被侵害的兒童你的霸凌的定義是不一樣的那這樣子其實會有問題那這部分勞動部覺得有被說服所以希望各委員我們大家可以一起支持這個二十二之一的這個修正動議"},{"start":26597.273,"end":26612.131,"text":"以上謝謝好請教一下什麼叫做有害勞工的工作環境造成這個工作環境有害那怎麼定義他前面其實都有講到本法跟原來的定義是一樣的本法所稱職場霸凌"},{"start":26612.551,"end":26619.234,"text":"不是啦 什麼叫做有害勞工的工作環境的定義是什麼工作環境怎麼樣叫做變成有害了這個就要回到 工作環境怎麼樣叫做有害了"},{"start":26642.984,"end":26656.98,"text":"這個就是 危害身心健康就很具體我覺得被霸凌了 我覺得不舒服了我心裡不舒服了 然後這樣子很具體但是說整個工作環境變成有害了那要怎麼證明"},{"start":26658.206,"end":26683.759,"text":"那有人必須容忍那樣子的所以這構成要件是兩個一個就可以成立囉這個構成要件是只要有害工作環境然後就是霸凌了喔不是危害個人喔是只要讓工作環境變有害如果有一個客觀的霸凌行為的一個準則的話當然就是不能因為我比較會容忍那個霸凌行為就不成立嘛"},{"start":26684.099,"end":26706.826,"text":"我想這個部分勞動部是不是可以說明因為我們在跟你們討論的時候不是我覺得我也可以一起討論就是說因為你的構成要件是只要你前面我們構成要件都一樣導致的結果是你認為有害工作環境就是霸凌了第二個有害身心健康也是霸凌你變成兩個都是霸凌"},{"start":26707.566,"end":26720.582,"text":"沒有 他這邊的如果加這句話重點就是在有害勞工之工作環境就是有時候你沒有辦法證明你的身心健康受傷害可是那個霸凌的行為是存在的嘛"},{"start":26721.519,"end":26742.482,"text":"不能因為說今天林淑芬覺得不被霸凌我覺得我身心受傷同樣一個對不起 洪孟凱的行為就變成在他身上你講的我同意但是我覺得你講的我同意但是呢什麼定義出有害工作環境變成有害了我在問的是這個問題"},{"start":26743.123,"end":26761.363,"text":"就已經有行為上的定義就是說利用職務或權勢等關係於業務上必要且合理這個東西都已經很清楚的各國的霸凌相關的規定持續以冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱或其他不當之言詞或行為現在"},{"start":26762.865,"end":26779.7,"text":"有害勞工之工作環境危害其身心健康利用職務權勢冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱他的授詞是什麼這些是動詞他的授詞是什麼讓這個工作環境變成有毒啊"},{"start":26781.604,"end":26806.433,"text":"就是有害勞工的有可能潛在影響對重點是勞工嘛所以重點是勞工嘛所以我的意思是這樣子那你要勞工來證明身心健康其實是難顧是更好沒關係我問一下部長這樣子是只要讓工作環境有害就是霸凌了是不是沒關係這樣定也可以不是只要他也是有客觀的準則前面的那些要件對但是就是說"},{"start":26807.233,"end":26834.292,"text":"只要發生過這些東西跟我無關我就可以去舉發我認為這個環境已經變成有害了所以我要告我要告這個人霸凌了沒有任何人出來喔但是我看不下去啊我覺得整體的工作氛圍不好啦他雖然不是霸凌我啊但我認為工作環境有害了啊我認為就存在了職場霸凌了這樣子也可以啊如果要這樣子也可以啊"},{"start":26834.972,"end":26849.082,"text":"但是我們要今天在這裡我們立法者的立法的意旨要討論清楚才不會讓未來整個法律通過的時候變成說立法者的意旨紫色的是什麼不知道"},{"start":26851.203,"end":26874.641,"text":"這個部分日本規範職場霸凌的專法也是這樣子的一個標準那兒童權利公約的國際審查也是說就是說教師校園的霸凌就是也是要以這樣子的一個客觀的標準而不是說被害者要來證明我的身心如何受傷因為有的時候會無法取得相關的證明"},{"start":26876.402,"end":26905.168,"text":"我都不爭執這個啦我在問題要回答我們的問題我也可以接受是這樣子啦來 那個洪牧海委員有所提那個修正動議第六案來 請說明感謝 感謝趙委我有提一個對修正動議啦那其實也是22-1條這邊我希望是說後面再加入一個說中央主管機關要建立職場不法侵害防治跟調查的人才庫啦那其實這最主要還是希望是說建立"},{"start":26905.988,"end":26924.262,"text":"外聘調查專家人才庫那整合心理諮商勞動法令等專業人才那其實就可以提供企業在面對職場霸凌的不法侵害事項那剛剛是不是等一下勞動部一起來說明一下好不好說是不是22之2但是"},{"start":26925.363,"end":26952.518,"text":"對 我知道 但是我是說其實剛剛這個部分我覺得范玉玟你也思考一下因為我覺得在這一題這一題裡面比較像是什麼霸凌其實它就跟一般比較常態會遇到就是性騷擾嘛性騷擾其實還是回歸到說個人只要有人認為說他有被性騷擾了不管性別 不管這個對象他覺得不舒服自身他自己感到不舒服就是危害他的身心健康其實這就構成性騷擾的要件嘛"},{"start":26953.298,"end":26974.921,"text":"職場性騷擾我們現在就是這樣定義所以有沒有必要一定要再把前面的這個工作環境也加進去因為我看所有委員的版本其實基本上是沒有這一個部分那我就覺得說如果說沒有那麼大堅持的話我們也了解說范雲委員提出了這樣的一個方向那也許可以在後面的立法宗旨的但書裡面把它給加進去但是實際上在法條裡面我覺得還是比較單純"},{"start":26975.802,"end":26996.031,"text":"那重點還是保障那個職員那個員工在職場上面不要有任何被霸凌的感覺我覺得這才是符合我們現在的立法宗旨以上 謝謝來 請部長統一回應我剛才很仔細聽大家的討論然後從我理解的邏輯來看"},{"start":26998.152,"end":27020.821,"text":"在这个文字上面就自有害劳工之工作环境危害其身心这样看起来结果还是要危害其身心健康就是结果还是要危害其身心那因为这一条处理的是定义那结果还是要危害身心这样可是我就会在想说有没有一种可能就是这个工作环境其实蛮友善可是里面有一个个人对了某另外一个霸凌"},{"start":27023.086,"end":27049.51,"text":"就是工作環境並不是一個有害的工作環境其實是蠻友善的可是就是有一個個人他的某個行為突然很惡劣然後對一個勞工霸凌那會不會因為有這句話就變無法去論證他是一個有害的工作環境那反而他說我這是一個我其實是一個友善的工作環境啊那會不會反而他就從這裡面定義跳出去了"},{"start":27051.486,"end":27060.576,"text":"我只是會有點在想我就文字上面的邏輯來看這件事情的時候我會在想會不會有這種可能性他現在就變成兩個構成要件的感覺啦就是兩個一個要危害身體健康而且要導致這個工作環境變有害啊"},{"start":27073.809,"end":27093.86,"text":"就是說如果這個我們做很多預防啊然後或者是這個制度也很好可是就是有一個勞工他他就是很暴衝式的或者是很怎麼樣的然後做了這樣的事情那會不會他就跳出了這個定義因為這個是斷制在處理定義的問題我只是純粹在想這個語句的邏輯啦"},{"start":27096.417,"end":27123.582,"text":"那這是第一點那我回應剛才孟凱委員的因為孟凱委員因為這一個章節其實是在處理霸凌資產霸凌的專章因為你剛才在講的部分是不法侵害那不法侵害跟霸凌不是完全等價的事情那不法侵害的範圍其實更廣那剛才洪委員在講到是說希望有社人財庫什麼他比較像是在處理的邏輯上面去處理所以如果要處理的話他可能會是在"},{"start":27126.083,"end":27141.517,"text":"因為這一條22-1是在處理定義所以可能不是在這個條文裡面去處理這個問題那人才庫的部分我們已經在進行了不管是霸凌的人才庫或者其他我們其實都在進行了這樣 以上我說明 謝謝那請歡迎委員"},{"start":27142.639,"end":27170.528,"text":"那我想問一下勞動部就是如果沒有加這個有害勞工之工作環境的話那是不是到時候舉證責任就是這個被霸凌者他一定要拿出就是說他被霸凌傷害身心就是受傷的一個診斷證明那這個才能夠符合這個定義是不是這樣因為舉證責任就變成是他本人要有一個身心健康受傷的證明了"},{"start":27171.721,"end":27199.239,"text":"好 跟委員說明其實在立法說明現在已經寫得很清楚所稱自己身心遭受危害不依須達到實質具體的傷害程度為必要包括造成勞工身心壓力或可能導致勞工離病或傷害的情形已足這個部分我們這個部分已經講很清楚就是說不會說一定要去拿這個診斷證明來證明說他已經遭受到健康的傷害"},{"start":27199.679,"end":27214.355,"text":"好那如果是照您這樣解釋的話只要是導致就是說造成敵意或惡劣之工作環境造成身心壓力那其實就應該在定義上把那個有害勞工之工作環境放回來啊對啊"},{"start":27223.843,"end":27244.972,"text":"再跟委員說明其實我們在立法說明裡面也有提到包括形成明顯的敵意或惡劣的工作環境造成勞工的身心壓力或剛剛我補充的這個可能導致勞工離病或傷害的情形所以我們認為說在立法說明已經有帶到的是不是一定要放到母法 對"},{"start":27247.215,"end":27261.762,"text":"應該是這麼說 他的立法說明的包含形成明顯敵意或惡劣的工作環境這個是包含進去的可是你的條文 你的修正條文是導致導致有害勞工的工作環境"},{"start":27262.262,"end":27284.909,"text":"这个概念两种概念是不一样的他本来是一个抽象的概念说他不需要很具体的说危害身心健康要有证明就像洪孟考刚刚讲的他是个性骚扰的概念他说你觉得遭受到这个伤害了然后呢觉得不舒服了精神上有危害了有压力了"},{"start":27285.829,"end":27309.387,"text":"那就過程了那還有前面那些過程要見你必須要冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱啊那有客觀的條件去認定嘛但是呢他包含了惡劣的工作環境你在這裡孤立他他就變成一個惡劣的環境啊包含啊但是你這裡講的是說我孤立他導致有害勞工的工作環境導致"},{"start":27310.668,"end":27334.556,"text":"我覺得這裡還是不一樣的概念不一樣的層次因為其實這個問題其實是范委員在那時候執安法剛剛預告的時候就提醒我們的執安法裡面的危害的意思不一定是說一定要這一個勞工已經被傷害了才叫危害執安法裡面的危害的英文字"},{"start":27336.937,"end":27364.465,"text":"就是說可能潛在會讓勞工受傷害就變成這就是一個危害的狀態所以因為職安法裡面的危害的語境比較是在這個邏輯下面去思考所以也是因為范委員之前有提醒我們所以我們也在說明欄裡面再把這個語句再交代得更清楚那個語句就是說不以須達到實質具體之傷害程度為必要因為當時"},{"start":27365.945,"end":27390.548,"text":"范委員就是一直在提醒說會不會變成一定要勞工已經實質的受傷害了你才可以或者被已經受傷了或者是才可以去論證這是霸凌這不一定因為那個危害的意思變成是一個這個就是潛在可能有發生風險的可能就會是在治安法裡面的危害的概念了對"},{"start":27394.824,"end":27410.913,"text":"謝謝部長這樣解釋啦那我想說因為這個說明欄的文字已經是這個方向了那能不能夠就是勞動部在說明文字裡面就把像剛剛部長這樣講更清楚一點那我就不堅持要加那個文字好不好"},{"start":27411.573,"end":27430.715,"text":"那但是我也要提醒大家不能拿性騷擾來定義來做比較因為性騷擾不需要危害身形健康只要主觀上覺得跟性與性別我覺得不舒服那我身心健康還是好好的性騷擾就成立了所以是一個不太不太好的比喻以上"},{"start":27432.85,"end":27461.519,"text":"我想補充一下我們不是拿這個覺得不舒服而是說性騷擾構成要件是當事人受害者主觀上認為而這個霸凌也是當事人他主觀上認為我遭受到很大的壓力所以這個重點是跟這個性騷擾同樣的地方是當事人的主觀感受我們要講的是這樣子這兩件事情當然不一樣不能是同樣的但是在講到的是"},{"start":27462.3,"end":27466.899,"text":"受害者主觀的感受這樣的構成要件是一樣的"},{"start":27468.033,"end":27492.165,"text":"我就是担心说到时候这个东西如果没有写清楚那个他绝对不会只听你主观的感受就是举证责任就在受害者我这样子我们来改那个立法说明然后让立法说明更清楚可以呈现出他不一定一定要劳工已经造成继承伤害才能够成为构成要件其实应该就是这个意思了这样子"},{"start":27492.645,"end":27520.227,"text":"好啦我們這條先保留啦好不好你們把那個提案說明你們把提案說明弄出來之後第二輪我們再討論好謝謝繼續審查行政院所提22條之二還有委員煥雲委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員劉建國委員林月琴還有黃本凱委員所提的修正動議第6案"},{"start":27522.83,"end":27541.429,"text":"我們先請行政機關來做說明好 勞動部說明剛剛提到多數委員的版本是跟這個院版一致那這邊如果有這個不一樣的地方我請下請就這個個別委員來的提案來說明"},{"start":27543.611,"end":27571.562,"text":"針對這個范雲委員這邊提到的是希望參考性供法第13條就第一項第一款的第二幕建議這個雇主可以對申訴人提供或轉介諮詢醫療跟諮商的或社會福利資源法律諮詢等等的服務那考量我們行政院版已經原則上已經涵蓋相關的協助跟服務內容那這個部分是不是在後續的執法我們會來明訂這些具體的規範所以這個部分建議維持行政院版"},{"start":27572.611,"end":27592.653,"text":"那在洪孟寒委員這邊有提到這個第二項建議新增這個參與職場霸凌申訴案的調查處理人員要準用這個行政程序法有關迴避的規定而且外部委員的部分專業委員不得與這個僱主跟事業單位有往來關係"},{"start":27595.335,"end":27614.281,"text":"考量這個部分我們在目前這個事業單位本身的調查人員的資格已經授權在第四項的執法明定所以這些人員跟事業單位不會具有這個僱傭承攬或特約或這個隸屬的關係那我們也會配合後面的法制作業將這個事業單位的調查人員小組的人員組成"},{"start":27615.721,"end":27640.909,"text":"資格還有調查的倫理等事項會參考性供法的機制再附屬法規或後面的行政規則來明定所以建議還是維持行政院版那第三項的部分建議說這個職場霸凌的成立的時候要登錄那目前行政院版是除了霸凌成立要登錄如果接受到這個申訴案也是要登錄所以範圍更廣"},{"start":27642.569,"end":27670.981,"text":"那第三項的部分委員建議說這個行為人為最高負責人的申訴需要成立這個調查小組然後調查小組的外聘委員這個比例不得低於二分之一那如果被這是是那就二二之二的部分這個說明到這裡然後我們還是希望是依照行政院版通過"},{"start":27672.881,"end":27673.927,"text":"好 請歡迎林淑穎委員 黃孟愷委員"},{"start":27678.591,"end":27706.397,"text":"謝謝勞動部的回覆因為剛剛職場霸凌調查人力訓練這個部分侯孟楷委員也有發言過那這部分為什麼的話我就不再講了那關於身負的部分我還是覺得蠻重要的因為就是公務人員保障法安慰辦法那他們都有談到調查的程序中調查小組的外部委員不得少於二分之一因為這個是職場的霸凌"},{"start":27707.217,"end":27727.228,"text":"所以这部分的调查委员怎么定其实很重要还有申赋程序中第一个关于申赋的部分比较重要就是处理机制另外关于被霸凌者的支持服务主要是我们国家其实在其他的不管是校园或者是性平的"},{"start":27729.069,"end":27743.858,"text":"的机制里面都有设计就是提供转介咨询医疗心理资商社会福利及其他不要的服务那我们也希望劳动部是不是能够写得更具体明确那另外记录要给当事人知道"},{"start":27744.918,"end":27763.668,"text":"其實包含我自己處理過的我們某知名醫院的陳情案那很多時候調查小組也不知道怎麼調查的也沒有外部委員然後就告訴他霸凌不成立那以我們看到的事證其實認為那個霸凌應該要成立所以如何能夠在"},{"start":27764.848,"end":27793.154,"text":"調查後那就如同我想我們召委也有處理過的兒少虐待之類的相關當事人就會希望能夠拿到調查報告也希望能夠是不是能在這個法條中那當然我也知道勞動部現在是承諾說未來的執法就是都會寫所以我沒有一定要堅持就看大家的討論那我也可以用附帶決議的方式 以上好 謝謝 請聽蘇委員"},{"start":27796.556,"end":27816.183,"text":"雖然這個署長有講說你們未來的執行細則什麼通通都會定但是我覺得有些事情必須以法律明定明白的寫下去才是比較好的比如說你要求調查程序"},{"start":27816.883,"end":27832.769,"text":"那外聘的委員或是相關的委員要有一些利益迴避的這個機制要有一些原則要委員不管是內部的或外部的要有一些利益迴避的機制我覺得"},{"start":27834.209,"end":27858.159,"text":"這個東西入法是比較明確是比較好的我覺得應該要放進去那我們在你再依據這個母法再去進行一些相關的細節的規範第一個第二個我有一點不懂就是說為什麼我們在比如說這個霸凌的人是最高負責人的時候交給地方政府去調查嗎那我們對地方政府的調查我們訂定了這個"},{"start":27860.459,"end":27886.807,"text":"處理程序由我們中央來訂定但是呢這個司法人他自行公司內部調查的時候我們只訂準則基本上還是授權給這些司法人他們自己去訂定他們的相關的調查處理程序和人員的組成這樣子這個差異是什麼我想了解一下因為你只訂一個準則可是準則的強度"},{"start":27888.433,"end":27900.426,"text":"要到哪裡啦那後面為什麼就連那個程序都有我們來定這樣子但是我是堅持利益迴避原則一定要放進去這個是非放進去不可"},{"start":27902.821,"end":27918.549,"text":"來 請孔孟靜委員好 感謝主席我也認同剛剛我們幾位委員的講法其實這一個22條之二就是利益迴避的部分參與職場霸凌第一 職場已經被霸凌了那一個投訴者要出來"},{"start":27919.93,"end":27939.307,"text":"陈情投诉已经相对来讲受到压力了因为他还是雇员之一嘛那我们更要确保是说参与职场霸凌申诉的调查跟处理人员第一你要有利益回避也就是行政程序法的回避规定那还有外部专业委员不得跟雇主或事业单位就本案以外的业务往来"},{"start":27940.598,"end":27958.088,"text":"請注意我這邊寫的是業務往來關係會比剛剛這個是司長嗎講的說你的執法令要講說僱傭承攬等等的我覺得範圍來得更廣為什麼因為有可能我要想的樣態它可能是小公司但它有可能是龐大的集團"},{"start":27959.068,"end":27976.802,"text":"现在有些那种社会上大型集团它的业务含瓜范围是超乎你的想象它有很多子公司那另外它的子公司如果说真的是上市柜然后大型的这种集团的话它可能方方面面十一住行都有那还有它有可能有法务"},{"start":27977.583,"end":28004.614,"text":"顾问等这一种不是典型的雇佣承揽的这种职务上的往来业务上的往来所以如果说真的在这种大型公司里面爆发霸凌的一个状况的话调查人员应该要有更明确的利益回避这是为什么我们希望是说能够在法条里面把它给明定上去就是不得与雇主或事业单位就本案以外之其他业务往来"},{"start":28005.154,"end":28021.296,"text":"我想这写得清楚应该会让大家更明确另外雇主于中央主管机关的网站登录内容应同时告知当事人而且也一样就如同刚刚范委员也讲到就说当事人他也很想要了解说到底我们现在处理的状况过程等等"},{"start":28021.696,"end":28049.645,"text":"那你在登陆在中央主管机关网站的时候其实如果说能够CC能够复建给这个同时知会告知当事人那不管是这个当事人是我们怎么样的一个设计让他同时告知那也会让当事人更可以明白了解说现在整个处理的一个进度跟状况是不是这两个部分可以在法条里面还是有所坚持我想22之2其实他就是最后一理路把它完善起来会更明确以上谢谢"},{"start":28050.425,"end":28072.607,"text":"不然等一下林淑美還要再表示意見紅委員就是說因為怕掛萬肉依就是說利益迴避這個外部委員到底跟事業單位到底有什麼樣的關係可能我們想像的都沒有辦法完備所以我是建議說應該是定一個需要利益迴避的原則的在母法當中"},{"start":28073.408,"end":28079.816,"text":"但是相關的細節或者是樣態什麼的交給他們授權給他們去施行細則訂定可能會比較否則你掛了一種那會被漏了更多種這樣子第一個第二個我們這裡面沒有談到如果調查程序違反了準則雖然我覺得對準則這個強度要放到哪裡有一點疑慮"},{"start":28094.372,"end":28123.505,"text":"但如果调查程序违反了准则的话我们法律要怎么处理我们要不要在里面明定如果调查的程序违反准则这个调查报告要不要认定为无效还是要修正它就好了还是要重启调查或者是说这个如果认定为无效的话那要不要开启外部机制第三方调查那有没有这样的一个机制是不是应该要这样子另外呢我在咨询的时候曾经谈过"},{"start":28124.005,"end":28148.439,"text":"就是說我們想像的大集團的公司裡面母公司監控比如說子公司那子公司他是一個獨立的法人他的調查報告都循著準則然後調查出來了可是母公司的董事會以他的金融的監督的這個母法的授權他要對於子公司所進行的調查進行干涉那應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":28150.2,"end":28168.755,"text":"在這個機制裡面大概都沒有談清楚就是說金融監督的法律規範可以給予我們職安法的這個霸凌專章裡面的獨立調查權還有這個要求他們母公司說你再重新調查一遍可以真的再調查一遍嗎"},{"start":28170.613,"end":28186.253,"text":"這樣子行嗎如果每一個事情都可以這樣處理的話這個調查還會是公平的嗎所以我的意思是說有幾個要處理利益迴避是一定要的啦再來就是說如果調查違反了我們中央訂的準則那還有沒有效那如果"},{"start":28186.753,"end":28211.528,"text":"不管有效還是要修正那處理的機制是什麼我們法律要不要明定出來然後再來我們講說這個我剛剛講的金融監督這個母公司對子公司的人事干預權而且董事會可以百分之百持股的話董事會可以百分之百的干預那要怎麼樣確保他的這個獨立調查的這個自主性呢來請部長同意回應"},{"start":28216.786,"end":28226.965,"text":"好有些部分我先先回應等一下請署長我第一個我不管是覺得這個呃外部委員要二分之一我當然是完全同意的"},{"start":28227.748,"end":28252.427,"text":"那要设定人才库我也是同意的那包括利益回避我也是同意的但我的确会刚刚孟凯委员刚才提到一点是业务往来我会比较觉得会需要商榷因为我想要提说因为这一年多来其实很多单位都办理过很多的调查其实在这些调查里面坦白说外部人是很难找的"},{"start":28254.008,"end":28282.795,"text":"那有一些單位他找到比方說如果是他以前合作過的學者其實他們不一定有利益共屬的關係可是以前也許有過業務往來也許出席過他們的會議那這算不算業務往來那所以當如果業務往來全然不行的時候那其實我會有點擔心會很多就全部都被排除掉了"},{"start":28284.212,"end":28308.157,"text":"那找那個外部委員會非常非常難找因為業務往來那比方說我邀請一個專家諮詢會我曾經邀請過一個學者來然後他有拿過兩千塊的出席費這會不會也算業務往來可是我們不會說他拿過兩千塊出席費這就是利益的共利益的一致或者是他就必須要依附於我不見得"},{"start":28308.837,"end":28336.383,"text":"可是當這個圈劃到業務往來的話我會擔心實務上面會很困難所以我是在想說能不能夠我們把那個圈就劃在利益迴避的概念上那只是剛剛講到說不管是二分之一我自己我是贊成二分之一可以入母法可是可不可以利益迴避跟人才庫有沒有可能用附帶決議的方式來進行或者是放在"},{"start":28338.903,"end":28357.289,"text":"說明欄就是說我覺得要落文字我也贊成可是是不是這個字一定要落在母法的法條裡面就我覺得二分之一很明確二分之一就落到母法裡面我覺得應該是可以的但是人才庫是很直行端的事情那看能不能夠用"},{"start":28358.749,"end":28385.708,"text":"附帶決議的方式來進行那我們這一定會做而且這也已經在做了只是利益迴避到底是要落在哪裡就是是否一定要放在母法裡面那這個事情我覺得也許大家可以做一些討論那至於剛剛在蘇芬委員講到那個準則的部分我想請蘇芳這邊來說明一下是 我補充一下剛剛部長提到的這個附帶決議其實王振旭委員跟林月琴委員還有劉建國委員"},{"start":28386.648,"end":28409.097,"text":"已經有提到要求勞動部在附屬法規要明確的規定外部調查人的利益迴避跟倫理相關規範然後這個部分然後對於這個剛剛林委員提到的這個個案如果這個是現行職安法還沒有這個職場霸凌的一個相關規範那如果舉這個例子說子公司所做的這個調查結果"},{"start":28410.478,"end":28430.303,"text":"然後母公司總公司去推翻如果以現行依照我們目前的草案的話這個基本上這個調查結果就應該被推翻那這個就違反規定那違反規定的話當然就是依照這個法就可以論處那至於說剛剛有提到這個準則其實它的準則是把現在的這個在這地"},{"start":28431.424,"end":28447.859,"text":"22條之二裡面的各項裡面的細節都會在附屬法規裡面明定那違反這個準則就會對應到你違反哪一項那就是3到75萬或3到150萬都是有相關的對應的法則不是 你是處分啦但是說這個調查報告還有沒有效"},{"start":28448.88,"end":28464.428,"text":"第一個第二個二分之一的外部委員這個是你認為可以入法可是你為什麼不覺得說利益迴避才是最關鍵的利益迴避甚至不一定是指外部委員內部的相關的有沒有需要利益迴避的"},{"start":28465.749,"end":28486.05,"text":"有沒有就是說你是跟他是什麼樣的特殊關係的或是什麼的有沒有可能我不知道啦大家一起討論那我剛剛還在講就是說違反準則所做成的調查報告有效無效這個東西需於法律明定喔否則的話會引起爭議喔"},{"start":28487.645,"end":28498.199,"text":"你法律又沒有說又沒有說這樣就無效法律又沒有說這樣子以後就要重啟調查你只是說要處罰而已但是要都受處罰那這個調查還有沒有效"},{"start":28499.434,"end":28522.57,"text":"跟我一個報告如果他的勞工不符這個調查像我們依照39條像檢查機構或主管機關申訴主管機關進場去檢查是你有沒有依照我們的準則的程序去進行對外聘委員二分之一還有這個有沒有違反這個剛剛講提到的這個對啦 違反準則了啦如果沒有違反的話都沒有違反的話那這個調查當然是成立了"},{"start":28523.635,"end":28545.066,"text":"那我現在問的問題是如果違反準則了這個調查報告到底還算不算是一個正式的報告第一個第二個我剛剛講母公司跟子公司這件事情不是個案這一定是通案就是很多母公司對子公司擁有這個人事上還有業務上的這個絕對的控制權"},{"start":28546.227,"end":28567.397,"text":"那子宮是做出來了母宮是不滿意那他們要求要重新調查你說要怎麼處理我不曉得你說有處理的機制是用哪一條一樣22條之二在未來的附屬法規這個準則裡面政府會去明定如果說他程序不符"},{"start":28567.657,"end":28576.628,"text":"你母法没有 母法没有授权你怎么去宪说说你这个不可以"},{"start":28579.233,"end":28600.168,"text":"你人民的權利義務法人也是法人你對於限縮他的這個權利的話一定要在母法先法律保留原則先定好才能授權給你們去定執法所以我才說這個子公司母公司金融監督的這個問題第二個調查報告違反準則還有沒有效的問題"},{"start":28601.449,"end":28630.048,"text":"這個都需要在還有利益迴避的問題你甚至二分之一才不一定是要在這個裡面訂定耶二分之一你的準則你就可以訂定了啊但是需要利益迴避是限制他的權利了限制權利的攸關到權利的才需要在母法訂定啊二分之一又沒有限制權利了對不對現在限制到個人權利的一定要在法律明定法律保留原則那這三個問題我就不知道說"},{"start":28631.189,"end":28636.853,"text":"你限制了他們的權利那法律有沒有放然後全部都交給你們在執法訂定這樣真的有辦法嗎"},{"start":28661.567,"end":28668.512,"text":"定定在法律之內所以這個東西一定要我個人認為是這樣我覺得這條可不可以先保留然後我們再跟幾位委員對於這相關的程序我們再做一點釐清這樣好不好"},{"start":28684.605,"end":28710.053,"text":"好謝謝那我們22條之二先行保留齁繼續來討論行政院所提的22條之三那有民眾黨的所提民眾黨團所提的6之1跟6之2對不對還有幻雲委員所提的22之3 22之5然後還有王俊勳委員所提22之3林書偉委員所提22之3"},{"start":28712.662,"end":28733.594,"text":"那再來 劉建國委員所提22之3還有林月琴委員所提22之3好 再來是這個黃孟愷委員所提修正動議第6案好 那我們請行政單位先做說明"},{"start":28734.67,"end":28750.415,"text":"好 勞動部說明目前看起來多數委員是跟行政委員一致那有不一樣的地方說明如下有關範圍委員提案建議說參考性供法32條之一就外部的申訴機制增訂這個"},{"start":28754.017,"end":28775.917,"text":"僱主及僱主為處理或不服申訴人之僱主所為的調查或懲戒結果得盡向地方主管機關來申訴那我們的考量是因為在霸凌行為人為最高負責人的話他的內部申訴處理程序會有這個恐有失公平 公正跟公平之餘所以在目前的行政院版是建立這個外部的一個申訴調查機制"},{"start":28777.338,"end":28792.02,"text":"那如果行為人非最高負責人依照我們剛剛22條之二的設計就回歸到這個公司的一個治理原則來處理所以有關最高負責人的範圍我們也會參考性供法的規定在附屬法規裡面去定名"},{"start":28792.961,"end":28811.335,"text":"那另外這個本法所定的僱主也有可能是法人的身份所以跟第一項的行為人也有可能是自然的有別所以我們這個如果事業單位沒有盡到這個防治之責這個勞工還是可以依照這個第39條向主管機關或檢察機構來這個申訴實施調查予以追究責任"},{"start":28814.958,"end":28834.69,"text":"那因為也考量到我們這個目前這個性騷擾這個我們職場霸凌跟性騷擾這個行為的樣態本質是不同所以也有考量到這個地方主管機關的一個量能所以目前的設計上這個有關於這個內部如果不服的一些處理結果還是回到公司的治理"},{"start":28835.43,"end":28858.696,"text":"那另外范議員有提到這個政府機關最高負責人的申訴的時候考量這個公務人保障法的授權這個公務人執行植物安全衛生防護辦法的32條已經有定名那我們跟這個有個調查跟處理程序也有跟這個考試院的保訓會這邊做兩法之間的一些調和所以建議維持行政院版以上說明"},{"start":28860.529,"end":28863.584,"text":"好 謝謝 那先請陳昭志委員 再請洪孟凱委員再請煥雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":28866.464,"end":28891.378,"text":"這條是新增的規範就是修法剛剛有提到是參考那個性別平等工作法第32條之一的精神主要的目的是在加強僱主處理職場霸凌或暴力事件內部申訴機制要加強因為同時建立外部的這個政府申訴與調查機制也就是說公司內部當公司內部能處理的時候那除了內部如果內部機制是不可靠的"},{"start":28891.958,"end":28909.698,"text":"不可靠 其實我們看到很多受害者還是能向外部的公權力機關向地方政府來申訴確保是有可信公正的救濟所以具體來說如果員工遇到職場霸凌或暴力應該先透過公司內部這次程序來處理但如果加害人"},{"start":28910.575,"end":28933.321,"text":"加害人是公司的最高主管或老闆那內部制度就可能沒辦法公平的運作所以才會去規定說員工可以直接向地方這個時候員工可以直接向地方主管這個申訴那另外如果說對內部的這個調查處罰不滿也可以向地方申訴那保障員工權益那有關這個申訴的這個時間期限"},{"start":28936.002,"end":28955.945,"text":"我觉得可以依照加害人的这个权势地位有两种状况那一般的状况就加害人没有这个特别的权势所以申诉必须在知道被侵害之日期两年内提出但如果已经超过五年就不能再申诉让制度有一定的这个稳定性但是如果加害人有这个权势地位例如主管或老板"},{"start":28956.445,"end":28982.812,"text":"那因為受害者可能不敢馬上申訴 這個我們在很多場合都看到時間就放寬為更長 也許是三年 但如果已經過了七年就不再申訴那對於特殊情況也許要特別規定 譬如說北韓是為成年人可以在成年後的三年內再提出申訴那過去害怕申訴 直到新法通過宅感提出來 也一次有這樣的人喔那可依這次修法規定的期限特別來申訴 那離職後"},{"start":28984.562,"end":29012.647,"text":"才敢申訴的人如果離開工作坊才擺脫的權勢壓力也能夠依照特別期限來提出這個申訴那最後參考這個訴願法做法就如果員工已經提出申訴但是主管還沒有做出處分前想要撤回也可以撤回但撤回後就不能再針對同一個事件重新申訴以免反覆的申訴維持這個法律的穩定性就我們黨這一條的精神基本上是這樣那不好意思我想在這裡跟這個"},{"start":29014.711,"end":29028.076,"text":"勞動部板就院板的再確認一下請問這裡所謂的這個最高被申訴的最高負責人的時候不包括這個被申訴人是政府機關構的最高負責人"},{"start":29030.188,"end":29051.859,"text":"因為這個時候如果沒有包括的話我看到包括王一鳴委員等有提出來這個時候這個時候應該還有一個管道如果被申訴為政府機關構最高負責也那包含在裡面但是可能要清楚寫勞工可以向他的上級機關機關構提起申訴這個精神是一致的部長你聽到好像稍微停格還是我一聲說太多還可以嗎"},{"start":29060.823,"end":29062.274,"text":"因為有文字啦,就有文字"},{"start":29065.427,"end":29092.545,"text":"我先说明其实这一条在处理的本意其实是参考性工法的最高负责人当时我们在三年前把这个洞给补起来那的确在设计上面还是有跟性工法不是那么一样完全一样的地方是在于但如果是最高负责人他的调查就要拉到地方的劳政主管机关因为这是一定的这没有异议"},{"start":29094.146,"end":29115.617,"text":"但是当不是最高负责人的时候他能不能够再申诉到地方主管机关就目前我们的这一次的行政院版的版本的逻辑是他不是拉到上面去在去地方如果不是最高负责人是那个霸凌人的话非最高负责人霸凌的话"},{"start":29116.898,"end":29139.333,"text":"他是用39条他其实可以请劳检外部的劳检来去确认他这个公司里面霸凌的程序有没有符合程序如果不符程序的话就要开罚所以他也是有一些外部的介入机制但的确没有到所有只要不服都可以跑到地方劳政机关因为"},{"start":29141.998,"end":29159.958,"text":"確實地方政府一直跟我們表達地方政府的勞政機關的量能真的有限然後他們很怕所有只要不服因為兩邊去調查就是有或沒有只要有一方不服就要全部都要拉到地方勞政機關去然後都要拉一個調查委員會"},{"start":29160.979,"end":29179.73,"text":"他们很怕这个量能其实在地方政府是无法负担的所以也因为考虑到这件事情所以我们则选择了一个这个做法就是你还是可以跟地方主管机关来做外部要求外部接入可是他是针对内部的程序面跟预防跟程序面有没有完成"},{"start":29181.033,"end":29198.134,"text":"如果沒有完成的話你就必須改正或者重的話你還是要重啟調查但是不是拉到地方勞政機關去調查我們是用這個方式去做折衷因為怕因為這主要真的是地方的勞政機關不斷跟我們說他們的量能真的沒有辦法了然後"},{"start":29200.407,"end":29224.779,"text":"他们觉得什么如果什么案子都要跑到地方劳政机关那边去做做这个确认的话真的他们会很困难主要是他说这部分是先回应刚刚范议委员讲到部分我就继续跟他就这件事对话那如果很多过去量就是很让人承受不住那表示都是内部处理就有问题你可以换一个思考就是不服气就是觉得没有处理好"},{"start":29226.259,"end":29255.323,"text":"才会往上送啊如果处理好跟丑媛说明我如果不管地方劳政机关我就答应了我如果不管这些地方劳政机关的量能我现在就答应我因为到时候要调查也不是我去调查但是我们是真的考虑到这个行政量能上面还是不是他不是一个无限的行政量能那希望让这事情能够顺畅在这边折其平衡才选择现在的这个做法啦"},{"start":29258.455,"end":29259.938,"text":"剛剛我談了好幾點你是要分開說明還是說我們這個法案"},{"start":29266.215,"end":29290.77,"text":"署長要補充剛剛委員特別提到說要不要區分為這個具權勢地位跟不權勢地位那我們考量這個職場霸凌的這個認定實際上是比較複雜而且相關事證的取得時效如果時間久了以後他這個行為人已經離職或是相關人證物證都沒辦法取得的話所以這樣子如果再這樣區分下去那或許"},{"start":29291.98,"end":29309.495,"text":"調查是很困難所以我們是參考這個保障法19條跟信工法30條我們有明定的剛剛提到的這個行為終了13年或是說事件發生後的離職後一年內提出另外我們也考慮到國內的一個民間企業它平均的一個壽命不是很長"},{"start":29310.296,"end":29335.745,"text":"如果說這個部分所以我們認為說這個而且企業的一個時間因為時間久遠他的一些人事變化會變化很大所以在調查認定就更困難了所以我目前在處理上最高負責人是還是希望說我們就這個霸凌行為終了跟這個如果勞工在職或離職以後多久內要提起申訴這樣去要收集相關的人證事證可能在調查程序上會比較順利"},{"start":29336.926,"end":29352.352,"text":"署長我我們剛剛我繼續就是剛剛的對話那個時間去你知道連連台大的不只台大這女醫師都要等到他考到專科執照以後他才敢去揭發很多事情因為他那個關係所以我們為什麼提到這個"},{"start":29354.052,"end":29369.828,"text":"不然你就想辦法吧我是希望在母法啦如果不然你再看有沒有辦法用立法說明來處理這個因為你不能用那麼簡單說這公司可能存活年只有平均也許不到十年十幾年也沒得追究了這個說法好像"},{"start":29371.038,"end":29393.698,"text":"說不過去就是說那事實上大家都會等幾乎沒有人敢第一時間站出來我們知道的案例都這樣政府機關也一樣都過了過了很久才發現才敢出來講政府機關最多就是去年就是一連串的就是這樣所以這個部分既然要修法了這個部分不處理嗎"},{"start":29396.089,"end":29418.126,"text":"那個署長想一下好不好然後我請這個洪本凱文先來講說再一併回應 好不好好 來 那個22-3那我這邊主要是要提到這個第二點的一個部分那如果說這個直轄市或縣市主管機關調查第一項的申訴案件的話你現在原文寫的是得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理"},{"start":29420.248,"end":29444.693,"text":"那我认为是说得应该是改成因啊因请专业人士那并且调查小组的成员外聘比例不得低于二分之一啊这跟刚刚我们在讨论22条之二又有点不一样因为22条之二比较讲的是说你这个事业内部的部分嘛那我们现在讲的22条之三其实是讲到的是如果说申诉的人是最高负责人那就是"},{"start":29444.853,"end":29464.527,"text":"向直轄市或縣市主管機關提起申訴那並且直轄市或縣市主管機關調查這個申訴案件的時候應該要請專業人士跟民間團體來協助辦理並且這個調查小組不得低於二分之一的一個外聘的一個比例我想這個部分其實跟"},{"start":29465.347,"end":29491.549,"text":"我们现在都希望是说能够确保他的专业性跟公正性因为我还是强调因为未来发生的样态有很多可能是大企业或是小企业一般的企业跟大企业那大企业他的影响力是有些时候是很难以想象的那但是我们既然要做的话就应该要做到是说是可以保障他的一个专业性跟公正性以上谢谢好谢谢再请欢迎委员"},{"start":29493.51,"end":29520.372,"text":"我這邊因為有些部分那個勞動部已經解釋過有放在說明文字或者是我原本的那個最高負責人的部分他已經處理所以我就講還沒有處理的部分我覺得重要的就是那個調查實現因為在院本22條之二第二項立法說明三有訂定調查處理期限因自調查小組成立後一日起第二個月內結案"},{"start":29521.753,"end":29548.769,"text":"必要時得延長一個月並通知當事人那但是呢這條當由地方主管機關調查的時候就是比較嚴重的譬如說負責人的時候那卻沒有寫明調查時間所以我想這邊是不是能夠比照院本22條之二第二項立法說明定定調查時間也是一樣兩個月加必要的時候延長一個月"},{"start":29549.83,"end":29563.924,"text":"这是一个那另外一个也跟刚刚前面提到的那同样的调查的相关记录应停工与当事人是不是至少也能够写在立法说明中呢以上这两个议题"},{"start":29567.871,"end":29582.655,"text":"好謝謝主席針對22條之三的第一項的部分我們也知道其實不管是中央主管機關尤其是地方主管機關自從姓名三法以後應該案件都蠻"},{"start":29584.736,"end":29606.744,"text":"量蠻大的我想當然事情處理好的話除了除了這個這些委員素質或者是參與討論過程當中的用心以外那個量本身也會影響到整體的這些內涵所以不知道目前勞動部這邊有沒有"},{"start":29608.264,"end":29636.454,"text":"辦法再讓大家確認一下有關於這個量能的處理部分如果相關的這些內容都要求要進到這個由主轄市或縣市的主管機關提起申訴像這樣的這個部分在量能處理上有沒有目前困難的地方或者是未來在執行的時候碰到這些量如果真的是超乎各個地方政府可以處理的話"},{"start":29637.034,"end":29658.367,"text":"那有沒有什麼其他的解決方案或者是可以讓大家在這個過程裡面知道任何相關的這些霸凌個案是經過非常謹慎的而且是完整的機制下去讓不管是申訴人或者是被申訴人都能夠得到公平的對待那請我們的部會做說明"},{"start":29663.294,"end":29688.019,"text":"第一个是说很谢谢王远也帮忙考虑那个其实地方政府的状态其实就这一年来从去年的职场霸凌事件到现在来劳动部最常收到的协助请求就是很多的要霸凌的调查单位跟说我们真的找不到外部委员"},{"start":29690.154,"end":29705.559,"text":"就是不断的来问我们说可不可以介绍外部委员给他们因为大家真的找不到那这当然我们要去设人才库那这人才库当然是一定要去设的可是我只是想要在这里是想提起一个事情是说当然我们都希望尽量的严谨"},{"start":29706.239,"end":29720.707,"text":"可是也某部分需要让这个事情运作就当把他设定的他的资格限制的太高的时候在真的到时候那我们因为现在有二分之一吗那真的那个到时候的量会很大那"},{"start":29721.187,"end":29748.443,"text":"这部分我是觉得真的是会需要再多做考虑那刚刚范芸委员讲的几件事情包括希望比照22条之二的调查时间或者是希望最后要提供给当事我想这我们都可以配合看是不是用附带决议的方式我们都可以进行那二分之一的外部委员部分我们现在也是在立法说明栏里面其实都有明定那如果二分之一要把它摆到母法里面我想我们也是可以同意的"},{"start":29752.825,"end":29770.144,"text":"是 剛剛委員特別提到說那個把那個德改英實際上有一些個案在地方政府是不需要外聘委員就是剛剛部長提到如果說改英的話就所有的22個縣市只要任何一個這樣的個案進來全部都要外聘委員"},{"start":29770.805,"end":29799.887,"text":"那如果真的是外聘委員的話都一定是超過二分之一因為就沒有內部委員所以這個部分是不是剛剛部長提我們在立法說明裡面處理不要定到這個條文裡面來是部長好啊 那先休息一下來做溝通對啦 但是我最後你說這樣他有多少因為他這個22-3被申訴人是最高負責人他不是說一般的中間主管"},{"start":29802.448,"end":29816.656,"text":"所以我才會考慮是說當然有一些小公司小公司可能老闆那一個公司裡面就10個員工所以老闆校長兼狀中但是如果說今天就比較大一點是說這種大企業那最高負責人所以我這為什麼我們才講是說他其實應該是"},{"start":29817.496,"end":29833.19,"text":"他第一这个样态相对来讲不会说那么的多因为你第一你还是会先让公司内部成立所谓的这个霸凌调查小组我们现在讨论是说你已经直接申请到县市政府的时候是说那一个公司的霸凌者是最高负责人"},{"start":29835.236,"end":29857.133,"text":"那最高負責人的那個影響力就有大有小所以我們才會提到是說那就應該這樣子的話就應該要有外部委員二分之一以上來去做這個調查是不是這樣相對嚴謹也不會說怪異漏腕我們先休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":29897.607,"end":29901.549,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":29919.669,"end":29919.709,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":29944.931,"end":29945.172,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":29964.772,"end":29968.674,"text":"外部園"},{"start":29989.008,"end":29989.028,"text":"副總統"},{"start":30001.698,"end":30026.239,"text":"對 還是得但是這份自己可以當進口就這樣如果確定就要打消除了這份自己要買的那這樣就行然後我們有幾個主席的主席主席的主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30029.443,"end":30036.633,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":30054.839,"end":30057.742,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":30067.688,"end":30082.91,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30084.811,"end":30107.919,"text":"對 所以所以所以所以所以"},{"start":30109.96,"end":30125.514,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":30138.029,"end":30156.621,"text":"但是他們說,因為他們沒辦法,所以他們自己..."},{"start":30157.602,"end":30187.585,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30191.642,"end":30218.45,"text":"因為我怕說如果他們把它改掉的話會一直找這個然後他們以後希望就不再發生了我現在是一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤要再找"},{"start":30226.446,"end":30246.315,"text":"休息時間到 各位請就座我們審查到22條之3請行政機關立法說明還在 也沒辦法說明 因為部長還在溝通"},{"start":30278.298,"end":30278.318,"text":"請說明"},{"start":30282.673,"end":30306.539,"text":"行政機關請說明溝通結果是 剛剛跟洪委員這邊溝通就是剛剛講那個應請專業人士這部分可以保留用德 維持用德那至於說後面如果是有這個請外部的專業人士民間團體協助辦理的話那個比例要超過二分之一對 要入補法那這個條文我們正在"},{"start":30309.316,"end":30334.489,"text":"現在擬 正在擬還是要保留吧 還是可以馬上擬出來如果馬上擬出來 大家看沒有意見我當然就可以徵詢委員會讓他通過就多一句啦 外部委員比例不得低於二分之一"},{"start":30339.75,"end":30363.352,"text":"外部委員比例不得低於二分之一是不是 大家看看如果說這樣這一句用紅色 對對 調查小組外部委員比例不得低於二分之一"},{"start":30368.39,"end":30393.375,"text":"調查小組外部委員 怪怪的吧對啦 多一個吃法規同仁也看一下好不好這樣子的一個用詞利益迴避呢利益迴避呢好 OK 好"},{"start":30404.332,"end":30409.135,"text":"外聘成員不...外聘對了"},{"start":30434.159,"end":30435.34,"text":"現在是22-3嘛 對不對對啊 利益回避賽22-2對啊對啊"},{"start":30449.735,"end":30467.415,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":30470.555,"end":30497.033,"text":"他們就說有 因為他們後面有 他們明明把二分之幾拿進去"},{"start":30497.213,"end":30497.513,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":30587.375,"end":30587.416,"text":"有什麼問題"},{"start":30614.155,"end":30637.634,"text":"他這已經拿到外面了所以就地方政府來說對於這個企業全部都是外部 原本就是外部了他已經是外部 他不是企業內部了大理在企業內部發生可是他已經是拉上去 是外面在調查的那我們過分的講 沒錯"},{"start":30645.119,"end":30656.385,"text":"好像我們講的 因為他這裡他跟我說 可是你安眠空間 要去到管理人會這裡在順便問一下 政府跟我講的 為什麼呢 其他我好像沒有特別要問的"},{"start":30657.145,"end":30675.211,"text":"現在溝通比較穩定了,說話差不多了沒有了溝通了差不多了,OK啦OK啦好啦好啦你話啊,你來說啊,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說"},{"start":30695.109,"end":30696.831,"text":"好,不然就先這樣"},{"start":30725.5,"end":30750.793,"text":"因為它之後比較放鬆因為它不反正"},{"start":30753.553,"end":30775.186,"text":"召委現在算是開會還是在休息不好意思現在還是算開會啊只不過他們沒有遵循往例自己都跑上來講不停我也很難嚇阻好然後呢請說明跟協調時候結果來"},{"start":30777.04,"end":30805.026,"text":"我們剛才是跟洪委員在討論是說能不能夠就是還是得啦那原因是因為這一條22-3它其實指的不是事業單位它指的是已經是最高負責人拉到地方政府去那地方政府希望保留它有兩種可能一種可能它是自己調查另外一個是它委專業團體或者是專業人士可是即便地方政府自己調查其實對於這事業單位來說也是一種外部"},{"start":30805.686,"end":30830.753,"text":"它并不是事业单位的内部所以比较不用特别担心说好像我们之前刚刚在讲要外部委员二分之一这件事一定要坚持这件事因为拉上去它其实也是一种外部所以是不是能够还是保留原本的得请专业人士或民间团体来协助办理让地方政府在处理这件事情是有一点空间的因为如果应的话就等于它不能自己办理"},{"start":30834.493,"end":30851.887,"text":"其實部長你講的沒有錯就是我剛剛我們在休息時間已經講過所以說我沒有堅持說要變成陰就維持現在得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理這沒有問題但後面要不要加後面那一句現在紅色的字這個其實我現在一直在思考的地方因為這可能很多樣態那"},{"start":30854.008,"end":30873.041,"text":"有一些样态是我刚刚讲了嘛就有些样态是这个公司规模比较小所以说他的公司负责人他可能没有那么有实质影响力所以说我现在丢出去我有外部委员就是组成一个调查小组然后外部委员二分之一以上来去做调查那这样子就可以厘清因为为什么内部委员跟外部委员其实还是"},{"start":30873.962,"end":30893.264,"text":"还是考量点就是说我们又希望有外部委员专家的一个专业又不希望官官相护但是如果说全部都是外部委员的话会不会发生另外的情况就是外部委员他没有公权力相对来讲比较会不会也有可能会受到大企业的影响"},{"start":30894.464,"end":30905.33,"text":"所以说我现在才会思考是说如果说在这一个22条之3的话是不是你那个不要写的那么就是还是保留这样的一个弹性如果发生有一些样态譬如说"},{"start":30906.687,"end":30935.226,"text":"他是大超大企业的这个最高主管最高负责人被告那大企业大到是可以他直达天厅比如说他也跟县市长很熟他也跟这个行政院长什么大家都熟那我们能不能说这个调查小组他就是有内部有外部的人员一起来做调查但是外部专家学者不得低于二分之一这个就是把它给保留下去"},{"start":30936.499,"end":30965.477,"text":"因為你剛剛試著說服我是說不用加後面那一句因為你講是說現在縣市政府全部都丟出去給外部委員是那如果說有自己做也有委外的話那這樣子就是應該要加這一句啊那我覺得加這一句大家沒有意見的話我們就把加這一句然後就是就讓他符合調查小組的構成要件那並且就是說我們要求就是說外部委員不得低於就專家學者不得低於二分之一那保留他一個彈性嘛"},{"start":30967.967,"end":30984.116,"text":"那你如果說有一些縣市政府如果說爭議性沒有那麼大的一個案件他全部都委外變成是全部百分之百都是外部專家學者那其實最後他們做出來的調查回歸到勞工局勞工局他們在做最後認定去開罰也是可以啊這個我還是請行政單位還是還宏偉再思考一下因為剛剛你用的隱喻嘛如果是大大大大這個企業跟地方的"},{"start":30997.148,"end":31022.388,"text":"的官員甚至是首長給我直接關心嘛那我們後面是應他們應是要強調就是要組成這個外部的成員要有歐元值以上嘛我們還是要確保這個事情嘛但是前面卻是得啦前面你是用得嘛對不對你如果得 得也不得啊要也不要如果沒有的話不處理後面就沒有了嘛"},{"start":31023.908,"end":31048.637,"text":"如果現在調整成是說前面是寫得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理然後如有組成調查小組者這個法律寫這樣怪怪的啦外聘成員比例不得少二分之一我們那個法務部參事在我們可以請教他那法律用寫如有如有花生吃妹"},{"start":31052.497,"end":31080.427,"text":"來 參事能不能幫我們說明一下這個法律用詞這樣可以嗎如有在這個地方跟主席跟委員報告在這個地方用不好意思 那部長那個如果用如有我們通常在法條裡面比較少見啊除非你說但書或者是什麼大概比較少如有這樣的用詞似乎在這個地方可能要考量一下謝謝汪常事你剛剛前面是得啦"},{"start":31081.397,"end":31106.485,"text":"得就已經不是一個肯定的東西了後面又多一個盧友這個不要定成法律這樣是怪怪的好不好勞動部勞動法務司報告如果這個語意上面覺得不是很妥適的話可不可以改成說由組成調查小組之必要者其外聘成員比例不得少於二分之一"},{"start":31107.125,"end":31132.114,"text":"那這樣子我們就給縣市政府彈性他如果覺得說真的是像洪委員講的是一個很大的企業必須耗費比較多的人力去處理這一件事情因為他有時效的壓力所以有組成調查小組織必要者那就讓縣市政府去衡量他的量能有沒有必要那外聘成員不得少於二分之一就是他處理程序上面的要求"},{"start":31133.087,"end":31137.775,"text":"法律是我們在訂的啦我們沒有去規範什麼叫做有其必要者"},{"start":31149.03,"end":31165.293,"text":"那只是在文字上面怎麼樣子比較符合體力我是覺得這條我們就先保留好不好然後我們跟大家把這個符合法制的體制的文字我們把它給擬出來那也許第二輪大家再來確認好不好好謝謝了好不好因為這個條文定下來絕對會"},{"start":31166.693,"end":31195.997,"text":"可能會破紀錄的不確定性的一種條文啦不明確啦 不明確那周委沒有問題就那這樣子可能明天拿出這個你們的這個修改版本吧那也參考一下我的附帶決議的寫法其實我的寫法是說是要成立德我本來寫因啦但是我被你們說服我覺得認為可以用德所以說德委請專業人士或民間團體成立調查小組調查那調查小組成員外批比例不得低於二分之一"},{"start":31196.397,"end":31206.471,"text":"好不好 就參考一下那你們明天把你們認為可以的文字拿出來謝謝好 謝謝謝宏偉 謝謝那我們22條之三就先行保留"},{"start":31207.622,"end":31227.352,"text":"好 那我們繼續來審查這個臺灣民已經不在了然後煥雲委員也不在了應該是臺灣民眾黨的六至三跟有兩位委員二十二之四這個我們就不予處理了因為人都不在現場然後繼續"},{"start":31234.806,"end":31247.636,"text":"對 歡迎委員的二十二條之六還有修正動議廖偉祥委員的 也都不在所以也不予處理來繼續 一樣是歡迎委員所提二十二條之七還有修正動議"},{"start":31250.111,"end":31272.517,"text":"對不起 陳慶威委員 因為人都不在現場 所以不予處理22條48也是幻影委員所提的修正 對不起 所提的條文草案也不予處理那繼續審查行政院所提23條 那委員有在場委員有黃俊旭委員對不起 劉建國委員還有好"},{"start":31279.232,"end":31291.827,"text":"就這樣那修正同意其實是孟愷委員所提修正同意第七案對嗎是嗎對OK好謝謝那請行政機關先做說明"},{"start":31302.054,"end":31323.243,"text":"多數委員跟行政院版本是一致的齁那林月琴委員提案的部分有部分的是剛剛有說明的就是是不是要加入這個身心健康這個身心的部分我們認為是這個不需要加入這個身心那就是目前是希望依行政院版通過齁那"},{"start":31334.554,"end":31352.911,"text":"我知道 跟洪孟淮委員這個部分在23條的後面的倒數一項二項有提到這個預防勞工免於發生職業災或職業病受惑者因普通傷病疾病等等這個德醫法申請病假"},{"start":31354.172,"end":31367.4,"text":"顧主不得拒絕那跟委員報告因為在治安法裡面大概過去以來就一直沒有出現所謂的這個價別的部分這個價是在屬於比較屬於勞動條件是在勞動基準法的部分這部分是我們請市長"},{"start":31370.07,"end":31397.855,"text":"這個部分會前我們剛剛休息的時候有跟紅委員這邊溝通就紅委員這邊同時跟這一條有關的病假權的保障有一個附帶決議那我們跟紅委員溝通是不是這個附帶決議的部分裡面有提到的要求勞動部承諾的第一點明定的部分就是承諾將於勞動基準法或相關法規中明定普通傷病假等等等等明定修正為嚴議"},{"start":31399.847,"end":31404.748,"text":"就是附帶決議的附帶決議 洪委員這邊有一個附帶決議跟這一條有關的好沒有 你們要講附帶決議可能人家有提的通通要講一遍的不是只有講一位委員喔因為這個病假的事情大家非常重視所以可能要講清楚一下"},{"start":31427.265,"end":31443.838,"text":"那個好我我知道婚戴決議是最後處理不過他已經針對這個條文有回應黃孟愷委員所提的修正動議第七案他要在互待決議裡面處理所以我才會特別因為他已經有講了所以我就必須要講了是這樣啊你都逼我給很緊張"},{"start":31447.586,"end":31468.768,"text":"好因为很多委员都因为这个强荣航空的空服员的案件很关心关于病假的权利那我想老虎可以在这边做一个说明第一个其实关于病假的权利要怎么样子不会因为公司的管理制度而让劳工遭受到恐惧"},{"start":31469.749,"end":31489.642,"text":"婴儿不敢请甚至必须要报病上班的这个事情其实我们已经在大概一两周前那我们已经展开关于劳工请病假的权利要如何更进一步的保障的法治化相关的原意"},{"start":31490.731,"end":31516.428,"text":"那当然现在的阶段是法规当然可能有几种不同的法规的做法我们其实也在演绎它的优点跟缺点那其中也包括这段时间大家也常提到的在劳工请假规则里面来去做保障所以我们是可以接受说是不是可以如果因为放在这个23条其实23条不是在处理病假的问题"},{"start":31517.108,"end":31539.482,"text":"那虽然他是有谈到预防可是或者是一个职业安全卫生管理的计划可是把一个病假的权利放在23条其实会让这个这个治安法尤其这个条文的立法的体制会蛮奇怪的所以那我们也愿意如果委员同意的话我们其实可以来拟一个附带决议那这个附带决议也来要求"},{"start":31540.562,"end":31558.257,"text":"勞動部針對勞工請病假的權益那可以來研議用相關的法規來去做這些更進一步的保障那我想我們也可以同意用這個方式來進行這件事情那不一定一定要放在這個職安法裡面的這個條文啦這樣子好不好"},{"start":31560.117,"end":31587.417,"text":"好 感谢赵伟那个赵伟非常的英明所以23条你讲到附带决议是之后才处理对 不过23条这边因为我特别有提到是说我希望是能够把它入法就是这个不应该因为请病假而有任何明文的规定去变成说扣全勤奖金还是考机等不利处分我想这个是我们大家一致的一个共识跟方向"},{"start":31588.197,"end":31614.299,"text":"那既然沒有這個條文的部分我不修正但是那個附帶 我不堅持啦但附帶決議的部分我這邊就是剛剛有特別提到就是說我可以同意把民定改成延譯那但是是不是能夠請部長這邊告訴我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊什麼時候出來我知道你現在已經對媒體講了就是說延譯中那也知道是說一定要快速嘛"},{"start":31614.719,"end":31642.719,"text":"因为让大家知道是说我们有规则可循嘛那什么时候能够研议出来我觉得这比较重要那附带决案是三个月嘛三个月内有没有办法我想三个月应该是没有问题没有问题那就依照附带决议通过那附带决议通过那就跟这个是一样的法定效应那就三个月内一定要出来我先跟大家报告因为其实病假因为病假的样态真的蛮多的因为一个劳工有30天的这个半薪的病假"},{"start":31643.579,"end":31660.922,"text":"那病假樣太多所以其實要比較周延的把各種的狀況去做思考其實我們也在跟一些專家學者在做討論但是在這件事情上面我們也其實也不會想要拖延但是因為相關的原因相關的原因也希望要周圍也包括會需要一些配套"},{"start":31661.923,"end":31673.272,"text":"那去避免一些大家可能不樂見的極端的狀況會發生所以請給我們一點時間但是我們是很願意來做這些相關的研議的你就三個月內好不好"},{"start":31674.774,"end":31701.179,"text":"部長剛剛說可以了嘛主席再裁示一下他現在就承諾那我們在互代決議的時候可能我們會再請部長能不能再把時間縮短一點因為我們要努力的目標就是讓他入法不過是入到哪一個法律才是比較民正嚴順甚至也可以真正去保障到勞工請假這樣的權利好 謝謝所以我們第23條我們就依照行政院的版本來通過"},{"start":31702.119,"end":31713.279,"text":"好 謝謝那繼續處理第二四條 院盤二四條然後王振興委員也是二四條還有分別有劉建國委員 王振興委員還有"},{"start":31715.677,"end":31739.697,"text":"好在現場就如此那請行政機關說明目前在場委員的提案對不起我先處理一下開會時間是不是到5點半我們是開會議程是到5點半通知時間到5點半那各位是不是有一定的體力要再去加強要延長主席一定依照各位的期待來處理"},{"start":31741.336,"end":31767.284,"text":"他們都搖頭 好 我們就到5點半 謝謝好 繼續 好 謝謝目前在場委員的提案都跟行政院版相同所以我們建議照行政院版的提案通過好 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 第24條就依照行政院所提的版本來通過 繼續審查第26條那院版26條提出草案還有在場委員有王振旭委員還有劉建國委員"},{"start":31770.056,"end":31798.465,"text":"就這樣 來請行政機關說明除了王振旭委員提案以外多數委員都跟行政院版都是相同那王振旭委員提案的部分在行政院版的第一項裡面增加要求事業單位要以及事業交付承攬要於事前交付承攬的時候事業要實施風險評估及管理等事項這部分可以解決目前危害告知普通流於形式的這樣的一個問題所以可以避免"},{"start":31799.566,"end":31813.06,"text":"這個風險之際的傳遞不足還有管理一些落差而導致的災害事故我們建議是依照這個行政版修正通過不是參考參照委員王正旭的提案通過"},{"start":31814.435,"end":31837.73,"text":"主席他參照你的提案你還有話要說你就說吧我們第26條希望能夠就剛剛署長所提到的內容來加以補強所以把一些該有的風險評估事前都能夠跟承攬人做一個完整的確認以後讓他知道後面的承接可以注意的事項以上"},{"start":31839.448,"end":31846.791,"text":"好謝謝那我們就依照王振旭委員所提的26條的查案來通過好繼續審查院盤所提27條那委員王振旭委員劉建國"},{"start":31857.383,"end":31880.976,"text":"好 那我們還是先請行政機關來做說明是 針對王振旭委員提案的部分提案版本在行政院的版本裡面第一項增加機械設備 器具人員的進場管制可強化這個原子力單位的一個管理責任可以督促這個 督促這個原子力單位確實掌握這個施工現場的一些機械設備跟器具人員的進出狀況"},{"start":31881.796,"end":31902.037,"text":"避免工地因為施工的安全管理鬆散善事使用未經過檢查合格或不符合法規的一些機械設備器具而且也可以防止僱用未完成法定訓練的勞工所以這部分我們是建議可以照王勝旭委員的提案通過"},{"start":31903.218,"end":31928.645,"text":"好 謝謝 請問委員好 謝謝署長剛剛說明的確目前的工地真的越來越複雜所以如果針對之前發生的一些個案知道器械設備器具跟人員之間的進場如果沒有經過很完整的管制的話這個風險是提高的所以我們才把這個第五款加進來希望讓整體的這個管制都能夠更為周全以上"},{"start":31929.878,"end":31942.527,"text":"好謝謝那我們27條就依照王振旭委員所提的草案來通過那繼續審查院版所提27條之一那委員還有委員王振旭"},{"start":31943.868,"end":31969.314,"text":"委員劉建國也都有提出27條之一草案行政機關先行說明是 目前委員所提的版本都跟行政院版本大致一致只有部分的一個文字不大一致不過整個立法方向是一致的所以我們建議還是照行政院的提案通過好 各位委員針對27條之一有沒有其他意見"},{"start":31971.124,"end":31987.991,"text":"那如果沒有那我們第27條之一就依照行政院所提的草案來通過那繼續審查行政院所提第32條草案還有委員王正旭委員劉建國一樣有所提這個32條草案我們必須來討論請行政機關做說明"},{"start":31989.892,"end":32016.796,"text":"好 針對王振興委員跟劉建國委員的提案都跟行政院版相同那有關於林苑琴委員連署的部分有一些針對這個勞工的一個教育訓練基本上在我們另外的附屬法規都有明定所以我們建議是不是還是照行政院版的提案通過好 各位委員針對第32條有沒有其他意見"},{"start":32019.983,"end":32049.31,"text":"那如果沒有的話我知道啦你們都這樣喔好奇怪有時候就像這樣有時候會看到不好看的東西好32條各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照行政院所提的草案來通過好謝謝那因為因為問一下有沒有要再進來如果沒有我們就要處理了我要再重新宣讀一次"},{"start":32070.713,"end":32085.443,"text":"好 我再重新做個宣告啦因為剛剛這組沒有特別提醒了22條之6原有這個委員換言所提的啦22條之6 22條之7 22條之8我們改為不予採納啦不是不予處理 這重新公告"},{"start":32087.597,"end":32096.819,"text":"然後因為已經27分了他如果再不進來我們還是沒辦法處理下去了好謝謝合作"},{"start":32117.617,"end":32145.748,"text":"所以32條就照行政院版本通過了然後第34條因為委員所提的委員都不在現場我們就不予採納第35條也一樣所提草案的委員通通不在現場也不予採納第37條一樣委員不在現場就不予採納那繼續審查院版第39條所提草案還有委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員"},{"start":32147.664,"end":32154.464,"text":"劉建國委員林月琴好 那請行政機關先做說明"},{"start":32155.441,"end":32180.114,"text":"好第39條是有關於第39條委員劉建國的提案基本方向上是跟行政院版一致只有文字的部分的文字一些調整所以這個部分我們建議維持行政院版那林月琴委員提案的部分有關於違反職場霸凌防治規定的申訴我們已經包含在現行的這個行政院版的條文對違反本法的規定的範圍已經有涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":32180.774,"end":32191.48,"text":"無需這個另外名列所以我們建議是維持行政院版依照行政院版通過不要講了來請林月琴委員說明主席你的343537應該是維持現行條文吧對請說"},{"start":32203.581,"end":32223.225,"text":"沒有我剛講說你剛因為講說事實上是照行政原本可是應該是維持現行條文343537應該是維持現行條文不是有委員提案的我是不予處理這樣不予採納對不予採納就是維持現行條文對不對應該這麼說好我們現在是在處理第39條對39條你為什麼兇兇跑去那邊"},{"start":32232.196,"end":32242.374,"text":"好了 時間到了就照行政院版通過好不好 第三條委員是不是我們依照行政院版所提的草案通過"},{"start":32243.8,"end":32262.502,"text":"好沒有意見好那3月9號就叫行政院所提的條文草案來通過好我們今天會議到此結束做一下決議職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案尚未審查完略於明日上午專題報告詢答結束後繼續審查那本日會議到此結束現在休息謝謝"},{"start":32277.591,"end":32277.672,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16989","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea021bb07685947ff682c5cdbe149175fa0aa126c40303dc271c0d8b5437ffe54e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n【法律案僅詢答】\n【10月29日及30日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-29T08:36:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:28:00+08:00","duration":13904,"影片長度":"03:51:44","委員發言時間":"08:36:16 - 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請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1532.918,"end":1559.46,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期內政委員會第七次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年十月二十二日星期三上午九時至十時五十三分地點紅樓二零二會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等十三人列席委員葉元之委員等十二人請假委員黃建斌委員一人列席官員內政部部長劉思芳及相關人員國防部資源規劃司人力資源處檢認事查錄新庭及相關人員法務部檢察官李芷琪"},{"start":1560.18,"end":1574.168,"text":"行政院主席總處公務預算處專門委員李培元主席王昭基委員美會報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二 邀請內政部就替代役訓練及備役召集運用進行專題報告並備質詢報告事項幾 討論事項合併詢答委員羅美玲 臺灣民眾黨黨團代表委員蔓玉珍說明提案要旨"},{"start":1580.271,"end":1604.291,"text":"內政部部長劉思芳報告委員蘇巧慧等11人質詢分別由內政部部長劉思芳及相關人員及國防部資源規劃司人力資源處檢任視察盧新廷答覆說明決定一登記發言委員處不在場則外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員林楚英謝龍介吳啟明高金淑美所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面"},{"start":1604.861,"end":1632.467,"text":"答覆並複製本會 討論事項一審查委員王美惠等18人拟據替代實施條例第59條條文修正草案二審查委員羅美玲等18人拟據替代實施條例增訂第55條之五條文草案三審查臺灣命中黨黨團拟據替代實施條例第55條之一條文修正草案決議一請內政部緊速會同相關單位研議妥適之修正條文內容二討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查條文尚未宣讀 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1635.325,"end":1644.634,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏那我們現在繼續進行本次的議程請宣讀"},{"start":1646.676,"end":1669.361,"text":"報告事項邀請內政部部長海洋委員會主任委員內政部警政署署長內政部移民署署長海洋委員會海巡署署長農業部部長財政部官務署署長就防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討與精進作為進行專題報告並被質詢討論事項審查委員徐巧欣等16人離去海岸尋訪法第13條條文修正查案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1675.882,"end":1703.272,"text":"本次議程所列報告事項與討論事項合併答詢那現在介紹在場的委員還有列席的官員首先介紹我們的王美惠召委我們舒喬惠委員張志倫委員許巧欣委員"},{"start":1707.233,"end":1730.089,"text":"今天列席的官員有我們內政部的政司馬事員馬次長警政署張榮興張署長移民署林鴻恩林署長海委會主委管碧玲管主委還有我們海委會常務副主委兼海巡署署長張忠榮"},{"start":1735.765,"end":1757.27,"text":"然後這個是農業部動植物防疫檢疫署的署長杜耀都署長財政部官務署的署長彭英偉彭署長法務部法治司林黛麗副市長"},{"start":1764.847,"end":1769.858,"text":"我們現在請提案委員說明提案要旨 請徐曉軍委員提案說明"},{"start":1780.132,"end":1802.694,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個相關的修正案其實是因為我們國家沿海的執法挑戰可以說是日益嚴峻就像是我們今天其實在樓上的外交國防委員會國安局的報告裡面也都有談到關於灰色作戰地帶的一些問題"},{"start":1803.835,"end":1827.201,"text":"所以兩岸之間其實在包含我們第一線的海巡人員的各種突發狀況之下其實它已經不只是原本的海巡的工作它更包含的是我們對於國安的一個要求所以經常需要的是及時完整的蒐證錄影跟錄音這早就已經是現代執法不可或缺的一環"},{"start":1827.961,"end":1848.754,"text":"也是保障民眾權益跟執法人員自身安全的重要憑據那包含是像我們一般來講說這個警察他們也都有相關的這個器材要求那作為他們自己不管是自我保護或者是日後他在蒐證上面或者是我們要釐清問題真相的時候非常好的一個憑據"},{"start":1849.855,"end":1873.997,"text":"那回顾呢在108年立法院决议要求配发全面每一人都要有一台的这个密录器那多次的争取相关的设备跟筹购但是呢每个人一台的这个理想似乎是还没有达到那去年发生的这个金门撞船案的时候呢海委会也承诺了114年完成密录器百分之百编装率的目标"},{"start":1874.637,"end":1900.263,"text":"那這一次修正案裡面呢也是希望能夠回應現場同仁跟社會大眾的期待那最主要是呢一個固定的那一個呢是可能可以比較自由去運用的就是說在船上裝固定式的監視的設備那個人的部分呢不管他是用攝影器材錄音或是其他科技工具都可以那用這樣的方式可以有效的防止"},{"start":1900.723,"end":1926.548,"text":"先前相關的事件因為沒有及時收證那導致真相的爭議證據已失的憾事重演所以我在這裡也強調一次那因為我有看到這個海委會有提到就是說呢擔心說呢這個列出了相關的科技設備的話會不會有摯愛難行或是掛一漏萬的疑慮呢那我想我們這裡寫得非常清楚是不會有這種情況的簡單說就是"},{"start":1929.508,"end":1958.36,"text":"船上一種的固定器材監視設備以及相關人員是任選一種的不管是攝影器材、盾號、錄音器材或其他科技工具都可以所以要做什麼樣的科技工具選擇對於個人配置的這個部分其實是呈現開放式的但是在每一台的艦艇上面無論大小都應該要有"},{"start":1958.82,"end":1982.674,"text":"固定的監視設備否則的話像上一次的這個兩岸之間漁船的爭議那就沒有相關的這個設備可以做後續的這個釐清以至於當時我們有花了非常多的時間試圖去討論這個真相為何但我們卻沒有相關的影片可以作為佐證對我方來說是相當不利的"},{"start":1983.254,"end":2006.783,"text":"所以呢這項修法他不僅是補齊設備的空缺更是守護我們所有海巡人員的職安而且也保重民眾知情的權利確保執法公信力跟透明度讓每一分的執法過程都有據可查也讓不實指控跟執法疑慮呢是有跡可循的所以呢再一次希望各位委員跟海委會能夠支持本案謝謝"},{"start":2009.634,"end":2023.047,"text":"謝謝提亮委員 徐協勳委員的說明那補充介紹還有到場的丁薛忠委員也到我們現場那先這邊請我們接下來請海委會管病組委做我們的專題與法案一併來報告"},{"start":2036.536,"end":2052.877,"text":"主席 各位委員先進各位女士先生 大家好感謝貴委員會邀請本會列席今日的會議僅就兩項專案報告提出以下說明針對防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制的檢討與精進的部分自報告如下"},{"start":2053.997,"end":2079.672,"text":"2018年临近国家爆发非洲猪瘟疫情以后本会海巡署及设置防治非洲猪瘟紧急应变机制落实岸海相关勤务多年来处置蛛丝均依上述作业程序妥善处理农业部于本月22日公告台中市发生疑似非洲猪瘟案例本会及指示海巡署成立紧急应变中心"},{"start":2080.212,"end":2105.594,"text":"并于同日12时30分召开第一次应变会议截至28日止即召开4次启动防范非洲周恩疫情专案计划要求各单位秉持防疫势同作战的态度权力守护国门及民众的健康本会还迅速全面加强港口与岸际的检查所有进港渔船实施百分之百安检"},{"start":2106.194,"end":2120.362,"text":"若查獲病死株或禽畜廢棄物將立即管制現場通報防檢局機關等採樣並由相關單位焚燒或掩埋同時依行政院主委院長指示加強"},{"start":2121.122,"end":2147.4,"text":"防范走私落实边境管制经统计今年1月1日到10月26日已经执行海上登检可疑船舶141艘次进港船舶安检131万余艘次并针对渔民进行177万余人次的防疫宣导确保及时应变与防堵作为114年执行至离岛"},{"start":2148.4,"end":2172.833,"text":"執行外離島至本島國內航線貨物拆檢檢查查緝案件即韓宋海關385案其中發現違規農產品61案其餘為大陸製加工食品及大陸製物品展現強化港舖安全與防疫查緝成效令自107年12月迄今總計處理海漂株枝屍體"},{"start":2175.195,"end":2202.796,"text":"179案阳性案例除了一例以外均为金门马祖这案例本岛自110年以来不曾有案记诸失成阳性反应未来将持续落实探案巡查与防疫作为总之海巡人员将秉持最高的标准最严谨的态度宁可多做不可少做不怕做白宫的原则全面投入动员非洲诸瘟防堵作战"},{"start":2203.516,"end":2232.448,"text":"另有關於海岸巡防法第13條條文修正草案之說明如下感謝貴文會邀請也感謝提案委員的關心現行海岸巡防法第13條已充分授權海岸巡防機關與執法期間彈性配備相應之應勤裝備令本會海巡署也已經在113年修正艦船艇人力規劃及裝備西行基準要點"},{"start":2233.268,"end":2249.326,"text":"律定所有艦船艇及海巡人员于执勤期间需配置或携带相关搜证及录影设备可确保案件处置过程搜证作业完备档一提案所提"},{"start":2250.748,"end":2269.499,"text":"應配備固定的監視設備及相關攝錄影器材或其他科技工具欲有狹窄空間之搜索、崎嶇、暗器、非車輛所及地點之巡邏或者需隱匿身份之跟監等相關必須因地制宜、遂行勤務之處恐將造成執行的障礙"},{"start":2274.302,"end":2290.245,"text":"另如果以列舉的各式裝備方式修正海岸循環法恐僵化的選擇適宜裝備之彈性自有怪異漏案之疑慮原建議維持原條文內容以上報告敬請見和指導謝謝謝謝管主委的報告那補充今天到場還有我們現在到場是我們的牛許庭委員"},{"start":2305.399,"end":2334.023,"text":"那接下來請內政部馬市馬市長馬常事 馬市院市長說明主席各位委員女士先生大家早安我國自從107年12月18日成立非洲豬瘟莊在應變中心後本部警政署及移民署被列為應變中心的成員那也依照相關的計畫跟防疫規定跟"},{"start":2334.804,"end":2356.898,"text":"所有的部會建立聯繫的窗口來防堵非洲豬瘟的入侵以下內政部緊究邊境檢疫及查緝的機制與其精進的作為做簡要的說明分為四個部分第一個部分有關於邊境管控的部分本部在航空的部分由警政署航警局來協助關務署"},{"start":2358.84,"end":2384.552,"text":"於桃園機場就重點航班39個疫區國家的入境旅客拖運行李辦理篩檢作業如果發現來自於疫區的豬肉製品會及時通報農業部防檢署處理令航警局於台北松山台中台南高雄花蓮金門南北竿等機場執行勤務的過程中依照"},{"start":2385.609,"end":2413.445,"text":"桃園機場的作業程序一樣發現疫區來自於豬肉製品也會及時通報防檢署派員處理在商港的部分在海關移民檢疫安檢的合作機制內本部警政署港務警察總隊執行船員以及工作人員及民眾進出商港管制區安全檢查工作一樣針對豬肉製品等會進行所謂的邊境查緝的工作"},{"start":2414.713,"end":2441.683,"text":"自12月22號至今警政署已經派遣5389人次支援農業部以及各部會在邊境茶器的工作上面來防堵豬肉製品的進口那麼移民署另外在我們的機場以及港口的茶宴大廳也張貼相關的海報跟防疫宣導的短片來針對我們的"},{"start":2443.715,"end":2467.668,"text":"航空以及港口入出境的人員來進行宣導提醒勿攜帶國外的自落製品入境此外 農業部防檢署也列冊高風險的特定對象移民署在高風險特定對象入境時會告知檢疫站派員來完成特定對象的清消以及查詢工作"},{"start":2468.499,"end":2496.639,"text":"截至10月26號止目前我們已經完成了1194人次那麼其中違規攜帶豬肉類產品入境而且沒有具居留身份當場也沒有查清沒有繳清發源者那麼立即拒絕入境目前有606人那在第二個部分有關於多元多餘的宣導由於我國有許多的住民來自於東南亞以及中國大陸地區"},{"start":2497.54,"end":2524.541,"text":"那麼在飲食習慣上面跟豬肉製品息息相關所以我們對於外籍人士的族群宣傳我們也針對細胞簡訊E-mail還有圖卡的部分在臉書加強專業的一個宣導只要有外籍移民的相關活動以及節慶的期間移民署也會到場來加強宣導跟訪視提醒的工作"},{"start":2525.154,"end":2545.571,"text":"那目前我們總共辦理了5689場次宣導的人次也超過了18萬人那麼也有行動服務列車2423車次來對我們的新住民朋友來提醒那麼在第三部分有關於查緝精進的作為部分"},{"start":2546.26,"end":2574.347,"text":"那目前我們在收報有關於不法物品進入我國的部分除了豬肉之外還有其他的非法槍毒等那這些我們都會跨部會機關合作來預先預防這些不法物品的入境所以在查緝的原則上面有所謂的事不放原則也就是看不清不放查不清不放交代不清不放有懷疑不放的四大原則來協助關務署"},{"start":2576.397,"end":2605.093,"text":"的同仁進行行李托運的一個查驗那麼也派駐我們具備土壤辨識能力的遠景支援海關的一個查緝的工作那麼第三有關於高風險船舶的部分那麼如果港區有曾經靠駁高風險註記的船舶那麼在裝卸貨的期間警政署也會安排警力那這時候也會包含寶山總隊的警力"},{"start":2606.126,"end":2634.647,"text":"來協助房檢署跟海巡署的同仁協助登船檢查那麼第四個也就是在名冊的盤點我們目前內政部也針對販賣豬肉製品的外國朋友跟外國移民的這個商家我們有建立了名冊那這些名冊跟食藥署還有各地方政府衛生局我們也建立了合作的管道那不定期的會進行合作的宣導清查以及增防"},{"start":2635.322,"end":2660.852,"text":"那麼此外我們也有具備東南亞語文的相關同仁那會留意在網站社群媒體上面的這些情資看看是否有這個不當的這樣的一個豬肉製品的進口跟交易的行為那麼也會配合檢疫跟衛生單位來做聯合稽查那針對違法的情勢來加強偵辦由於目前的非洲豬瘟的疫情嚴峻"},{"start":2661.468,"end":2684.471,"text":"所以本部的移民署跟警政署我們目前維持高度警戒也會全力協助財政部關務署農業部房檢署以及衛福部食藥署等機關執行相關的防疫工作希望能夠將疫情阻絕於境外來守護國人健康安居的環境那以上報告敬請各位先進不吝指教謝謝好謝謝馬市長"},{"start":2687.245,"end":2715.027,"text":"那其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢問委員質詢前願立作以下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘上午十點三十截止發言登記那本次會議就不處理臨時提案請各位有沒有意見"},{"start":2716.408,"end":2720.99,"text":"好那我們現在進行詢問請登記地位的舒喬惠委員發言好謝謝主席我想請我們防疫檢疫署杜麗華署長"},{"start":2745.103,"end":2768.576,"text":"署長好 署長 我想我們防疫是全國的事情不分中央跟地方那我們在這七年來我們把非洲豬瘟其實是守得很好一直主角於境外直到今日所以做得好的事情好的防疫要能夠持續為是只有兩個嘛第一個就是做得好的動作持續"},{"start":2769.73,"end":2789.879,"text":"做不好有洞的地方就補洞精準的把漏洞找出來把它補齊這才是防疫能夠持續的方式署長完全同意嘛 對不對完全同意嘛好 那所以我們今天在此刻10月的現在發生了爆發第一起非洲豬瘟在國內這樣的狀況我們這個現在的狀況你到底它的洞在哪裡是邊境要加鹽嗎"},{"start":2797.122,"end":2800.225,"text":"還是是在境內要來阻絕呢我認為其實我們應該現在要處理的是國內到底會不會這個案件擴大這才是現在的重中之重不然的話你國內如果大爆發你邊境再怎麼防堵其實我們就整個豬場所有的養豬事業都已經去料料了啊"},{"start":2817.964,"end":2824.188,"text":"這農民都這樣 豬農都這樣說了嘛 對不對所以我們的重中之重應該是放在國內現在要查清楚署長應該也同意吧防疫視同作戰嘛要精準的了解戰場才知道資源現在要怎麼配置嘛好 所以我今天沒有要跟你談邊境防疫的這個管制啊那我們現在就來談今天本件個案來 我們現在看嘛其實這一件非洲豬瘟的時序表"},{"start":2846.623,"end":2852.586,"text":"10月10號豬隻死亡個案出現而且據現在的疫調通報是一次是報了20頭豬超過了這個300頭豬的這個豬場超過了他的百分之百分之相當多了嘛百分之將近10了啊百分之782吧對不對"},{"start":2864.631,"end":2870.394,"text":"好 接下來有獸醫師到場單位採檢然後10月20號的時候又有另外的獸醫師到現場才終於採檢署長 我想問的是說其實在這個部分我們到底誰可以採檢採檢的要件到底是哪裡因為這就是整個案件的第一步第一個洞就是出現在這裡署長你同意吧 對不對好 那我問你什麼時候 粉件什麼時候可以採檢什麼時候應該要採檢"},{"start":2892.545,"end":2912.383,"text":"報告委員本件有異常嗎300頭豬的豬場一次死了20頭豬這是異常嗎我跟委員來做報告14號之前那這個他有這個異常的部分大概是5次從11月1號你就告訴我啦你就用 你是專家嘛你就很簡單一句話告訴我一個300頭豬的豬場通報了你我今天死了20頭豬"},{"start":2919.489,"end":2925.092,"text":"超過5%這樣算不算異常 是算不算 有有嘛 算異常嘛好 所以算異常那應不應該採檢因為現在其實坊間的徵典竟然變成是說啊 我們沒有典型的症狀所以無法強制採檢現在的徵典變成是這樣啊所以我偏查所有的法規喔能不能夠採檢其實就是只有這條規定嘛"},{"start":2944.46,"end":2951.726,"text":"就是在動物傳染病防治條例的第17條啊受醫師或受醫佐醫執行業務發現動物罹患 罹患或可能感染罹患或可能感染的時候就應於24小時內向當地當地的動物防疫機關報告而動物防疫機關接到報告的時候是應立即為必要之處置"},{"start":2969.707,"end":2985.998,"text":"署長我採用的這條法規有問題嗎這個是甲類甲類的傳染病一定要照這樣來做通報但如果是一般的疾病就不是這樣子所以一般他是不是甲類還是一般就完全取決於現場獸醫師的判斷嗎假設說我們牧場他有一般的都有特約的獸醫師那認為有疑似他就要通知台中的動保處是台中的動保處嘛當地嘛對不對"},{"start":3000.448,"end":3008.517,"text":"對 然後來查核事 那我們現在看下面啦我給你看其他縣市的做法啦其他縣市這些也通通都是已經知道是假類了嗎這些案件都知道是假類所以才去採檢嗎"},{"start":3015.228,"end":3038.98,"text":"只要有棄置河邊 我棄置河邊我就知道它是甲類了喔我排泄物有異樣了 我當場採檢也是因為我知道它是甲類了嗎在一隻海漂豬來 我看著它我就知道說喔這甲類 所以我應該要採檢是這樣嗎海漂豬的部分我們已經跟海巡共同第一時間就處理對嘛 那前面那個呢 第一個2018年的時候花蓮六隻豬被棄置在河邊呢我眼睛看到它我就知道是甲類了嗎"},{"start":3041.001,"end":3048.867,"text":"在我們的海邊簡單講就是有沒有警覺性嘛我們新北市在有養豬場排泄物異樣的時候就可以當場採檢了啊對不對所以其實就是這一個地方到底有沒有警覺性它是不是傳染病我當然是要驗了以後我才知道是什麼狀況啊不是是這樣嗎海漂豬的處理師每一屆一定印"},{"start":3067.621,"end":3089.12,"text":"我這裡又不是只有海漂豬而已這個這個所列出來的目前的這個大概都是跟我們跟海巡一起處理的海漂豬那我第一項是嗎我第二項是嗎對河邊也是淡水養豬場也是海漂豬喔河口的地方也是海邊河邊我們一律都一個標準就是一定驗這個標準一定是特別的高我本來齁在這個台上"},{"start":3091.622,"end":3094.645,"text":"要告訴你的就是說我們現在的標準就是應該要重演嘛所以我們的警覺性要提高嘛所以接下來的話任何有豬隻異常的話一個 你剛剛都已經說了一個300頭豬的養豬場20頭豬20頭豬能夠一次性死亡這個如果還比較異常的話那"},{"start":3114.406,"end":3125.068,"text":"我不曉得什麼才叫做異常啦連一般人我不是專家我都知道這是異常了所以不用採檢嗎這麼簡單的道理對不對大家在這種防範防成這樣今天這麼多部會要來說邊境加嚴管理結果你一個獸醫師到現場看20頭豬超過了7%的死亡率你不用採檢你不用通報有這種事情那為什麼我們這麼多單位要在這邊這麼嚴格的防疫"},{"start":3142.452,"end":3146.493,"text":"不是是這樣嗎好你現在作為署長我已經給你這個樓梯了你竟然還在說你不加嚴我不能理解欸對不起那個我真的不能理解報告委員我可能說沒清楚其實都已經加嚴了那之前的部分對加嚴已經有加嚴了我覺得這樣我問不下去了抱歉抱歉"},{"start":3168.206,"end":3179.322,"text":"我們省非洲蘇溫熟了7年是這是在蘇院長的時候就已經嚴格去做執行到現在沒有變沒有變還是要更加你現在告訴我說300頭豬的豬場有一次20頭豬死亡是異常"},{"start":3184.076,"end":3206.991,"text":"不用通報 不用採檢 不用加嚴未來不用再更嚴格的處理都要所以現在的動作一切是正常的不是 他不是正常 他是異常他絕對要有後續的處理那所以呢所以後續的處理台中市的動保處要回報給我們那他到底是有去宣傳法事你知道嗎如果我們的傳染期我們的檢服期是15天我們現在的第一頭豬死亡的時間是10月10號"},{"start":3213.896,"end":3214.799,"text":"對 我是10月10號他才通知他10月9號就可能有狀況了10月10號以前的豬有出去了嗎"},{"start":3222.649,"end":3244.735,"text":"你也不知道啊因為台中市政府給你的三次疫調所以台中市政府的疫調署長我事實上我跟你們要報告說現在豬到底死亡幾頭你們沒有報告給我耶在我們的畫廠你沒有報告給我蘇巧惠辦公室耶好 那我們你現在有嗎你現在在備詢台中說嘛9月1號起一直到我們10月13號你這次本件到底已經現在目前為止死了多少頭豬我們的畫廠的數字顯示9月1號起到10月"},{"start":3250.136,"end":3255.04,"text":"13號的抽驗是106頭這數字誰給你的21號 但是這是我們的化智廠的不是 是我們的這個系統的警示但現在就是台中市政府只回報給我們78頭所以我們現在要求他們"},{"start":3268.268,"end":3270.329,"text":"落差在哪裡 對啊對 所以要求台中市政府把疫調這個裡面要釐清楚到底死亡的頭數是多少頭那到目前為止還他們所提出來的市長對於你今天的這個回答我非常的不滿意啦好 我檢討我非常的不滿意是 我檢討"},{"start":3286.84,"end":3291.543,"text":"已經發生了這麼多天全國人民驚慌產業界消費者大家都陰陰的期盼就是應該要有一套東西可以拿出來告訴我們說現在有一個洞出現了而我明確的知道洞在哪裡我接下來要怎麼補結果你現在沒有辦法在備詢台上面一次告訴我"},{"start":3308.936,"end":3321.707,"text":"我拍頭就已經說了防疫是中央跟地方的事情我們沒有要推責但是該是誰的責任動在哪裡大家講清楚嘛這哪有什麼黨派之分這哪有中央跟地方之分所以你該講的就應該在這裡講出來你到底是在擔心什麼東西呢如果是台中市政府沒有資訊給你在這裡講出來嘛"},{"start":3330.194,"end":3353.589,"text":"我相信其他的委員各縣市的都一樣擔心啊我們已經在應變中心跟應變所的會議一再要求台中市政府要表議調也就是這些包括來源包括死亡投訴包括三年單的部分所以你有東西了嗎除以你有東西了嗎你現在有資料了嗎昨天的時候他們昨天下午三點那你對於台中市政府不給你資料所以你現在沒有辦法在這裡回答委員他們已經已經給我們昨天下午三點給我們那資料是準確的嗎11點"},{"start":3358.893,"end":3362.884,"text":"已經送我們的專家委員會要針對他的報告 完整報告做審視"},{"start":3364.901,"end":3372.085,"text":"所以在審視之前你也不知道那是不是正確的嗎有 昨天已經初步初步的這個簡報那個什麼他的那個疫調報告已經有回應他一些意見要求他再詳細的補充說明我覺得我在立法院問政這樣十年我想我的品質應該是還受到肯定如果連我現在在這裡都聽不懂你在說什麼的話那難怪國人聽不懂這個報告啦好 對不起"},{"start":3392.833,"end":3397.436,"text":"好 謝謝蘇喬惠委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢 張委員有請好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員早有請內政部馬政次 警政署張署長 海委會管主委以及這個關務署的彭署長林副司長 張署長"},{"start":3422.779,"end":3430.179,"text":"管主委還有哪一個官務還有彭署長有請"},{"start":3434.96,"end":3462.219,"text":"好各位長官大家早今天為什麼要請每個單位的長官大家一起到這邊因為剛剛我們蘇委員也特別質詢也非常義憤填膺為什麼因為非洲豬瘟台灣已經防疫7年成功了那今年的5月29號台灣也獲得國際的這些衛生組織的獎章正式列為非疫區想不到在5個月的今天今天10月29號"},{"start":3463.34,"end":3480.631,"text":"我們必須要這邊再質詢請教各位官員為什麼非洲豬瘟會在台灣發生首例而且目前來講就像剛剛在討論的部分現在還在努力的防堵當然就我們國家而言防堵病毒的入侵"},{"start":3481.471,"end":3507.369,"text":"不只是以國內防疫為主那邊境檢疫要共同守住動物健康的防線是非常重要尤其是嚴格的邊境檢疫策略是扮演關鍵的角色作為杜絕疾病境外的第一道防線不管是機場、港口、郵局這些通路都要強化查驗來防止動物跟其產品的非法輸入所以第一個我想要請問我們各單位的"},{"start":3510.351,"end":3539.16,"text":"長官現在有沒有查出非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是在哪裡是不是請各單位的主管簡單說明一下先有請內政部的馬次長請問有查到現在非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是哪裡嗎跟委員報告我們在行警局我們配合各個單位執行我們的邊境查驗那從110年到現在我們總共查了1593件那麼也查扣了2000多公斤"},{"start":3540.204,"end":3562.534,"text":"這裡面我們有陽性的建築所以馬市長認為您這邊是百分之百防疫沒有問題我們現在的部分執行的強度非常高旅客非法攜帶的部分還是我們查緝的重點謝謝接下來請海委會管主委主委這邊"},{"start":3564.737,"end":3582.486,"text":"海巡署在案記誅師的部分大概成功的攔阻了20個案例我們採取的是百分之百都當作非洲族文來處理這個部分是百分之百的所以179次只有20次是陽性159次我們不認為那個是做白宮因為有必要"},{"start":3592.151,"end":3619.34,"text":"我們就是當作有可能所以我們第一時間防護衣穿著就衝出去好 這是海巡的做法好 謝謝管主委接下來我們請張署長好 委員我們的邊境管制最主要是機場跟港口由我們的航空警察局協助貫入署對於入境旅客那台灣機場的部分就是對於入境的這個行李配合海關在做這樣的一個檢視"},{"start":3620.82,"end":3628.223,"text":"那另外旅客的部分就是這個水手攜帶的目前是由關務署就是由防檢署對於這個疫區來有專線在做檢查那我想就是這個是有歷史的變從108年到108年我們原先這個內政部是有支援這個防檢署是專案在看但108年的7月以後就回歸給"},{"start":3647.331,"end":3662.722,"text":"給這個灌入署來他們的德情保全大隊就對了對對對所以這個部分的行李就移給他們來做其實這方面的非洲之音的這個檢查是非常嚴謹的那另外就是說這個剛剛我們這次也提過就是從111年到目前為止大概這個查驗的這個狀況大概有這樣的跡象那港口的部分是由這個我們的港務警察總隊"},{"start":3676.873,"end":3683.797,"text":"配合海關還有這些檢疫單位一起來做一個質詢謝謝署長我們請關務署報告委員這六七年來海關一向以高標準高規格高警覺來防渡非洲豬瘟都沒有鬆懈政策也都沒有改變過那我們會繼續嚴查這個非洲豬瘟加強力道那這幾年來也查獲了13500多件都移送防監署去做採訪以上"},{"start":3708.468,"end":3713.65,"text":"剛剛聽完各個我們所有邊際防疫的長官回覆後我有幾個問題想要來請問第一個我們先請內政部馬次長馬次長"},{"start":3723.649,"end":3738.15,"text":"就我這邊得知就有關於這個航警局的這個部分那航警局我這邊有收到線索就是說航警局的部分有人力就是來協助有關於這個貨物的進出口負責的這個非洲豬瘟的查驗"},{"start":3738.951,"end":3763.089,"text":"那我這邊有得到消息因為我還沒有找到確切的數字聽說航警局的部分人力是有吃緊的一個部分那很多的人力是被調到其他的單位比如說像寶二的關鍵基礎設施請問有沒有這樣的情形沒有這個問題我們對於這個寶二的這個一波都是要填選自願的所以對於這個航空的恩賢大隊的警力現在是充足的"},{"start":3765.17,"end":3782.277,"text":"這幾年的人數是不是有逐年下降目前大概就是說大概缺200多人那我在今年的10月13日再補54人安檢大隊對於這個出境或入境的這個警力的這個執行目前是沒有問題的"},{"start":3783.317,"end":3809.275,"text":"好就是航警局現在就是配合這個安檢大隊安檢大隊現在警力是沒問題的可是就我得知啦因為我還沒有要到確切的數字就是逐年我們這個安檢大隊的人力是有短少的那我收到的消息是有被拍到這個寶二的關鍵基礎設施所以這邊拜託署長會後是不是可以提供我們相關的數字如果人數有減少就是邊境查緝這個非洲豬瘟的或者是一些毒品的人數"},{"start":3809.995,"end":3819.978,"text":"尤其在這個入境的部分尤其檢查貨物的部分人力有少請要儘速來補齊好嗎好沒問題好謝謝第二個我們請管主委主委好那請問一下你們現在這個海巡的人員在剛剛你特別講到的在查緝這個岸邊查緝這個疑似有走私的船的時候你們人力的數量人力的人數是否足夠"},{"start":3837.934,"end":3865.178,"text":"各位有没有报告确实我们在海上的人力今年的上半年有一个短期间的落差因为毕业的同学考完试然后要你确定为什么我今天问这些问题其实就是我们的边际的防疫不管是大家都很辛苦我是知道这个部分完全没有问题这个问题我们只要发现这个部分我们只要发现到目前为止是百分之百我们都处理的"},{"start":3865.678,"end":3881.379,"text":"對其實這就是我要講的尤其在海巡的部分我也收到這個海巡人員給我的一些小建議他說雖然是100%的查緝可是查緝的時間跟查緝的精準度上如果你只有一兩個人去查的話一個漁民他會覺得說你查了很久"},{"start":3882.14,"end":3895.686,"text":"他會不耐煩造成查緝人員的一些心理壓力我原說的是安檢對安檢的人員那所以我的意思是說如果你們人力不足還是需要拜託你們把這個人力的狀況稍微去補齊一下我們下半年會把這個同學畢業以後然後經過考試訓練完畢以後他們就位的時候上半年的時候離職的數字下半年都補足了所以什麼時候會補足"},{"start":3909.6,"end":3927.94,"text":"我們已經報到已經報到了絕大部分但是還有一個是特考特考的部分是11月11月就會補足好謝謝拜託盡快補足來把這個邊境的這個安檢的部分再加強那最後我再請這個關務署的部分"},{"start":3929.858,"end":3949.051,"text":"好 關武署那剛剛大家都講說查緝都沒有問題那我還是希望說第一個人力要補足那我在請教的時候最近新聞也在提說現在在夜市販賣很多這個國外包含大陸相關的一些零食它是沒有貼這個繁體標示可能是走私入境的一個部分"},{"start":3949.611,"end":3973.386,"text":"那就關務署而言你認為這麼像現在很多在夜市大量的大陸的零食算不算是走私的一部分那這些部分會不會有藏有這個豬肉尤其是疫區的豬肉那這些來路不明的食品那會不會成為防疫的破口請關務署回答是 報告委員現在這個食品的部分6公斤以下個人是可以帶進來自用的"},{"start":3973.906,"end":3989.707,"text":"是不是有走私的行為因為如果只有6公斤以下那為什麼會產生這麼大量的在夜市上販售的情形你們要怎麼去檢查這些問題那這種可能的情形有時候可能是小山洞這邊用螞蟻搬家的方式一個人經常進出這個國境"},{"start":3991.315,"end":4017.181,"text":"一個人6公斤那有可能慢慢的就累積多了但是他限於要自用不能到市場上去販賣到市場販賣是違反規定的那你們現在有什麼加強的一個查緝的措施嗎當然肉品是不行含肉的豬肉製品當然都不能所以現在都沒有含肉的製品不含肉的食品是一個人有6公斤的限制可以帶進來"},{"start":4018.717,"end":4042.415,"text":"那後市場的查緝的話可能要多仰賴這個我們相關的警察還有其他的單位來協助因為海關就是通商口岸的邊境的把守好 謝謝那今天本席最後還是要拜託我們各單位的長官第一個人力的部分要再多補強那第二個就是各部會跨部會的協調再拜託一下我們邊境的安檢跟防疫謝謝"},{"start":4047.225,"end":4069.416,"text":"好 謝謝張志倫委員 下一位我們請張宏祿委員質詢來 我請警政署長張署長有請還有海巡署署長海巡署署長有請還有"},{"start":4072.412,"end":4099.329,"text":"農業部的動植物防疫檢疫署署長杜署長有請還有財政部關務署的署長彭署長有請這一次這個非洲豬瘟這件事我們努力了那麼多年那就破功了我想請問一下這個到底有沒有疏忽這個農業局的杜署長"},{"start":4102.56,"end":4120.166,"text":"其實從我們現在目前的資料來講台中本身其實這個是應該是一個追查的一個重點不是 有沒有疏忽應該是有疏忽才會造成的有嘛 我就有這句嘛一個疏忽造成了全台灣幾千億的損失"},{"start":4121.755,"end":4137.11,"text":"然後國際形象還有我們的豬肉我們努力了20年了可以出口了一個政府的一個疏失造成了巨大的損失有多少豬農會倒"},{"start":4138.922,"end":4158.468,"text":"對不對署長所以我們現在目前也在全面性 全國性的防疫都在做加強避免他擴散出去你就回答我的問題嘛對不對是不是有疏失我剛剛有說過這個案例發生絕對是有疏失值得檢討的地方我們這一個啊"},{"start":4162.065,"end":4174.591,"text":"仿如非洲豬瘟這一個跨部會的部門已經成立7年多了是對不對那今天有書師誰的書師比較多目前的安妮廠是在台中"},{"start":4176.699,"end":4181.704,"text":"全台灣都知道在台中啦是我說誰的疏失比較多啦以你們現在這一個禮拜來講的話誰的疏失比較多目前我們檢測起來是從台中市的從通報開始然後好啦我就問你啦是地方政府的疏失多還是中央啦你就回答我這樣就好了啦目前我們真的還在疫調中"},{"start":4200.285,"end":4211.309,"text":"什麼叫意料中 你要講有疏失到底誰的疏失現在目前比較多嗎大家都要檢討啦其實因為剛才講到那你如果這樣講你要不要檢討你自己啊我也會檢討不是啦我立法委員我在問你你就回答我的問題就好了啊那台中市目前來講的話他們的所有的資料其實是很欠缺的很不足的那有很多帶釐清事項也沒有釐清清楚"},{"start":4229.416,"end":4246.509,"text":"對嘛 所以他的疏失比較多吧目前資料顯示是如此對嘛 你就這樣回答就好了嘛就不是在究責我們是要找出問題把它解決嘛為什麼要這樣問好 那你們現在全國的疫調有沒有第二家養豬場有這個問題目前全國的部分"},{"start":4247.475,"end":4252.421,"text":"都沒有第二例所以這也是我們沒有第二例但潛伏期有多久15天15天過了嗎15天還沒有所以邁入第二階段那我看到的新聞說台中烏漆這個養豬場裡面還有檢測到病毒的殘留有沒有這件事"},{"start":4267.958,"end":4270.599,"text":"就是這個案場我們加強傾銷以後我們也特別在針對這個案場看有沒有落實再做檢測所以抽了14個樣品以後發現兩個兩個是陽性就是還有嘛對不對就是還有嘛是環境好"},{"start":4285,"end":4297.826,"text":"我跟你講鞋子踩到會不會會所以目前全國還沒有是蠻慶幸的潛伏期還沒過我剛剛講的是幾千億的產值2000億應該不止吧你的2000億應該是那個養豬場的2000億周邊應該不止2000億吧是不是不止"},{"start":4314.841,"end":4343.09,"text":"對所以我說的就不是所以我的意思就是說你現在如果台中市政府已經不可靠了中央要不要強力的去做有我跟你講這個不能讓病毒擴散出去這是一個非常重要的一件事情不只為了養豬場也為了全台灣也為了國際形象"},{"start":4343.959,"end":4350.494,"text":"也為了我們所有公務人員你今天在這裡你今天做的不是該做的事情"},{"start":4351.778,"end":4376.253,"text":"除了該做的事情之外你做的是救台灣幾千億的產值這應該是很努力去做的一件事情中央地方都要一起來但如果地方他的人力不夠或什麼的中央就要扛起來了是不是是是嘛沒錯你這樣回答我們就來看了看能不能真正的把它防堵起來那我先我再問一下海關我們最近這半年"},{"start":4381.38,"end":4401.664,"text":"我們裁罰了多少包委員我們今年啦你就回答我最近這半年裁罰了多少違規啦我有這個數字是截至到850件今年啦最近半年啦最近半年的數字我要統計大概是600件左右吧你剛剛說800件800件是從1月1號到現在今年才800件啊去年咧去年1100多件"},{"start":4412.098,"end":4428.773,"text":"啊在前年呢一千大概兩三百件左右怎麼逐年遞減是啊因為原廠的關係是因為原廠不是因為不是因為沒有原廠所以越來越少吧當然不是這樣子就很奇怪了該堵的都堵這個病毒從哪裡來的"},{"start":4439.091,"end":4462.781,"text":"這個不是你的專業啦這不是你的專業啦但總有一個漏洞在那邊啦對不對但這個漏洞呢大家現在都知道了啦該哪裡該補我相信啦現在大家都緊繃起來了我跟你講七年多了沒有事情了擔心的就是大家越來越放鬆了越來越放鬆才會這樣啦不然"},{"start":4466.861,"end":4477.67,"text":"這一件事情如果大家是很認真會拖一個多禮拜然後才讓全國知道嗎才說確認嗎那個杜署長如果是大家都戰戰兢兢的像七年前一開始這個情況會發生嗎"},{"start":4487.546,"end":4502.771,"text":"所以說地方的防疫單位你就回答我會不會發生啊其實大家都很認真在做你不要再跟我講這些嘛如果大家都像七年前一開始這樣很緊張這件事情會晚拖"},{"start":4503.72,"end":4508.021,"text":"晚一個多禮拜才通報嗎其實機率會變小什麼叫機率會變小我跟你講在這裡不要講官話啦我們是解決問題啦又沒人要究責又沒人要什麼對不對我再問一次如果是大家都以七年前剛開始的態度去做事這件事情會發生嗎對如果這樣子的話"},{"start":4525.935,"end":4544.683,"text":"這麼高的警覺性其實機率就很小可能就不會發生對嘛所以我覺得就是一個態度的問題啦一個態度的問題啦今天就是因為態度造成這樣所以我現在要跟署長你說的態度要拿出來啦"},{"start":4545.97,"end":4554.096,"text":"我們現在是要把它防堵擴散到其他的豬場這個態度要拿出來但你們的態度國內是你們要負全責但我請這些其他署長上來也是要讓你們知道你們也要幫忙防堵不然國內清理好了後續還這樣會有第二次發生這次如果大家再緊張七年後大家又不緊張了有可能又第二次"},{"start":4573.161,"end":4596.909,"text":"這個是我今天要質詢你的重點所以署長多浪費你一點時間我真的覺得用最高規格的你不要再去管台中市政府怎麼樣了台中市政府都已經這樣就沒有辦法信任了沒有辦法信任的情況之下我覺得該強力的處理就處理好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4602.07,"end":4605.333,"text":"好謝謝張宏祿委員下一位我們請王美惠召委諮詢主席我們這裡農業部醫政署署長來杜署長有請說實在今天要說這個說不太下去"},{"start":4630.211,"end":4635.792,"text":"署長 你知道今天的日記當時嗎?什麼節嗎?你知道嗎?重陽節今天九月我真的懷疑你今天的當時就不知道了你們可能都記新的啦 還沒有記古歷的啦但是今天的節是非常重要"},{"start":4660.509,"end":4662.192,"text":"因為今天是重陽節,是我們一家最大的事大人最愛念的安保,讓他平安順遂"},{"start":4675.669,"end":4694.218,"text":"署長,我今天怎麼會這樣說呢?如果有拜拜,現在市長、縣長都很忙,都會一年三次今天重陽節,最重要的日子是紀念祖先的拜拜,你知道嗎?"},{"start":4697.796,"end":4704.499,"text":"我為什麼要跟你說這個因為我來自嘉義市你敢知道嘉義市的市長尤其是董事也好 南盟產也好還有其他都沒有在馬當賣市長 是你來看嘉義市的董事在馬當你有看過嗎"},{"start":4728.715,"end":4730.557,"text":"或是我現在給你看 你再看或是以後你再看見這個問題會怎樣重視"},{"start":4737.319,"end":4741.661,"text":"我們在18、22號的時候 全國管制的時候就是靜宅禁運 那開始的時候 第一階段就這樣做我比較不知道靜宅禁運 我是說署長你那個感受啦 今天我們有嚴格 特工去 了解說這地方 它的分 有過沒 均到90%沒有"},{"start":4765.93,"end":4771.432,"text":"雖然他在那裡也想要展示他也不希望他的地來世地方政府有辦法去體諒這個老人沒辦法上船但是在這個過程整個國會前還有辦法上船是怎麼發生的事沒辦法上船地方政府覺得一個去關心一個"},{"start":4796.357,"end":4810.722,"text":"市長是我們這個已經對這個什麼台中的資料出來開始針對這個廚餘的報告沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落"},{"start":4817.895,"end":4822.098,"text":"他的斟酌的時間也不夠所以這可能也是一個問題所以這就是那個什麼環保署這邊你追查說為什麼他怎麼會說這個部分地方政府他沒有按時懲罰署長你可不知道這個運用多大像你剛才說的"},{"start":4837.657,"end":4840.339,"text":"營養兩千多名 你覺得各行各業都要營養到賣保安的 賣農場的 賣安全的 主要有地貨的地方台灣人都愛吃溫泰的 溫泰的煮得更香結果你看現在 現在在澳"},{"start":4860.66,"end":4861.782,"text":"你有看到來你有看到一個做生意的人他說要配合我們政府"},{"start":4869.099,"end":4872.982,"text":"所以 署長 他最危險 先說感謝一路支持我的人你如果再倒來想是不是我們要感謝這些做生意的人 支持我們中央的政策你看到現在 信心的信心 沒買沒買署長 這不是兩千億而已"},{"start":4896.664,"end":4900.41,"text":"這是非常嚴重的 你看他自己在當時 你看他用一個暫停箭 署長 我們要同理心"},{"start":4913.527,"end":4922.392,"text":"但不對 但做得不好的地方政府 人不夠積極我們中央是不是要協助他們是 報告委員這個部份已經在研究這個法律的公佈 說我們要進行公平民對參選的報酬沒有沒有不是 這個法律會提出方案經濟部就會提出方案對我們"},{"start":4941.321,"end":4949.164,"text":"攤商的補助補貼獎勵措施經濟部已經在跨部會會議的時候已經有這樣的共識跟研擬了所以這禮拜經濟部會提出來 市長我告訴你寶祖的寶祖像嘉義市我剛才有說的你如果看到那裡的土地那裡的董事你如果看你如果看你如果看"},{"start":4971.254,"end":4971.816,"text":"來拗一張你看都沒有在做"},{"start":4975.865,"end":4983.646,"text":"包括要報賣包括在那裡做零工的都沒辦法直接投入所有應用的宣洩的部分在這禮拜公佈的時候對應一定有獎勵的措施啦所以跟委員報告有獎勵的措施市長本身跟你說的你們要回去研究不是賣地馬的應用很大喔再來所有的做生意的人"},{"start":5005.816,"end":5009.539,"text":"都做沒辦法做生意這也影響很大這後續你要去研議好對不對所以說市長在這裡本身要跟你說我們你剛才說的到目前為止是跟台中市長"},{"start":5025.748,"end":5028.35,"text":"有問題 是 結果有問題的時候我每天來你們討資料 每天關心 關心到現在你們說的地方 也有兩個的所在 厭懷有養性的 說實在 署長 也是他這間我都不知道他這間啦 自己都沒注意的聽結果不是他這間的問題"},{"start":5052.23,"end":5055.271,"text":"你們的噴 政府的噴在那裡我們萬一有在那裡 太沙地或什麼地自己吃下去淘汰你這是親親喪禮所以這不行 這絕對不行 要禁止絕對不行 現在都噴在這裡環境部已經加強這個部分是 市長今天我是怎麼說得這麼氣憤"},{"start":5082.058,"end":5082.341,"text":"因為我相信台灣人"},{"start":5084.793,"end":5086.874,"text":"吃豬肉、吃牛肉、吃雞、吃蚵仔所以在這個過程當中未來雞、蚵仔、牛肉長大的時候你們要怎麼去處理販售的環境、的經濟你們都要去保持好,我們都已經在處理了不用緊張,自己怎麼做就怎麼做是,是,是以上好,謝謝"},{"start":5118.199,"end":5131.387,"text":"謝謝美惠美惠 趙薇確實這個來自基層的聲音真的被聲音嚴重這部份相關的部份今天改觀了那接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席有請農業部還有關務署"},{"start":5147.006,"end":5148.667,"text":"請以上單位想要請教一下目前這起就是非洲豬瘟的病毒源頭查到了嗎"},{"start":5168.616,"end":5178.722,"text":"原統目前還在調查中因為在台中市政府他們所提的這個疫調的一個報告裡面還是都沒有交代清楚所以下個階段從今天起我們這個我們要問的是你們中央的事情專家會議結束"},{"start":5187.387,"end":5190.59,"text":"依照農業部的指定的防疫SOP中央與地方應該依序啟動哪些通報還有採樣隔離與回報的程序才要請教我們的台中這個案例的通報流程是否有哪一些環境沒有依據SOP的執行"},{"start":5213.964,"end":5233.73,"text":"我們檢視了他們目前的作為上來講那台中市政府在於我們警示系統異常然後通報的時候他們就第一時間的時候的回報的系統其實不是很完整而且沒有提高警覺那他們沒有照SOP的執行是這樣子的意思嗎應該是說他們的這個"},{"start":5239.011,"end":5265.477,"text":"對 應該是誤目前如果推估起來應該是誤判啦因為確實它是呈現的是陽性但是過去它可能我們大家是當作是一般的傳染病一般的疾病在做處理是好 雖然你們是監督的單位我們要來監督你們你們要監督的單位你們的工作既然防疫SOP的運作"},{"start":5267.406,"end":5281.842,"text":"有部分正常有部分就覺得不正常是你們就是我們要今天要來問你們的你們要監督的工作啦所以你剛才說的嘛防疫做一直都有持續"},{"start":5282.603,"end":5292.65,"text":"但是有一些你們覺得說沒有監督不好是不是台中的問題是你們的監督是台中的問題所以你的意思是說你們的SOP的執行的監督都很好了是不是他應該是要依照我們的一般的SOP的流程在走所以你就是說有持續嘛所以我們要確認一下說你這些的前期防護措施是近三年來有沒有出現"},{"start":5312.583,"end":5321.294,"text":"地檢的情形我們想要知道的不要只說台中怎麼樣台中怎麼樣我們要問的是我們的中央的監督"},{"start":5325.325,"end":5334.789,"text":"我們都有我們的流程就是不管在肉品上在豬場上他的一般的防疫的以及我們的監控的你說的你們這是說這三年來沒有出現一些就是遞減的情形講得很好如果有的話比如說我們的宣傳的次數"},{"start":5348.434,"end":5363.335,"text":"還有邊間查檢的件數 抽查的頻率這些的指標是增加還是持平 還是說逐年減少能否提供具體的數據給我呢"},{"start":5366.101,"end":5367.842,"text":"不能用講的 不能說電視的講 報紙的講 白人的講這樣來講 不能這樣 要有具體的是 我們會把我們的次數包括經費的部分也會來反映不過確實是經費上是有有有刪減那事實上但是我們也沒有疏忽啦就是依照我們現有的我們現在要的就施刷次數"},{"start":5391.903,"end":5392.724,"text":"還有監數 還有就是頻率這一些要有數據 具體的數據不要再頭腦裡面都很積極這個是你們該做的工作 不要再講這些了"},{"start":5407.752,"end":5411.855,"text":"這個是有具體的嘛所以你說事後就會提供是嗎所以現在你沒有具體的這個工作我們要執行我們要執行我們要做功課你來背執行你都不做功課你都要提供資料而已嗎我們要的是你要了解所以最近網路"},{"start":5428.348,"end":5438.412,"text":"網路上也有很多側翼幫你們宣傳因為立法院善預算所以防疫的宣傳不足才導致破口請問一下你們有觀察到哪個部分防疫的宣傳確實不足嗎還是說印了太少我們的宣傳彈還有海報廣告"},{"start":5455.441,"end":5457.642,"text":"因為預算有停止嗎還有我們邊境的積查抽查旅客的行李包裹這個頻率有沒有因為預算刪除降低了呢報告委員我們該做的都是有去做而且這個的整個防疫的工作其實是沒有降低的"},{"start":5481.428,"end":5505.696,"text":"好都沒有降低嗎沒有降低的不管我們是中央跟地方所以你們做得很好嗎不是做得很好就是大家都知道因為畢竟這已經守護了7年所以有他的一定的基本的流程但要注意的是像包括他的監測這些都照我們原來的年度目標在走所以這些就是你們的這些側翼就是你們每天都在講預算刪除我們的預算"},{"start":5508.977,"end":5513.519,"text":"六億多三兩千還有五億多所以我們就是做不了了所以來再來呢我們在網路特別查到就是防疫署的官網裡面的宣傳影片上架已經五年了到現在只有三到四百個觀看率五年平均約五"},{"start":5538.05,"end":5540.351,"text":"四五天只有一個人觀看這樣子叫做做得很好很有效率是嗎所以甚至我們在越南版的非洲非洲主義的宣傳的動畫還變成私人的影片沒辦法看這樣子的請教一下這樣的預算做宣傳很有效率嗎"},{"start":5569.363,"end":5574.225,"text":"5億多 上了2000萬你們做這個很有效率所以你們要持續在做報告委員您檢視的是108年可是以今年來講我們的宣傳影片在今年的暑假放了一支放了一支現在網路上看到的就是這個數據不是我們是7年前的是現在的現在網路搜尋的我沒有在7年前當立委這個是現在這是108年的"},{"start":5598.634,"end":5605.157,"text":"2008年的你們要做這個影片到現在就是這個數據我們有新的新的版本新的版本我們沒有看到看到網路就是這個好那我們可以提供新的版本給委員表示你們在宣傳不夠網路才沒有看到嘛我們看到的是這個看到就是"},{"start":5615.768,"end":5620.51,"text":"就是這樣子的一個問題所以我們非洲族人一直在我們也肯定我們的農業部還有關屋署這幾年守住防線的努力但我們注意到的是說我們行政部門每次出事就先喊說要團結"},{"start":5640.2,"end":5642.941,"text":"接著又要說車一一起就是怪我們的立法院怪這野黨所以我們這樣的操作防疫真的有幫助嗎真的沒有幫助我們要的是效果我們要"},{"start":5655.846,"end":5661.828,"text":"提出的問題要解決問題不是說你們都是要去怪罷人罷人的事情不是你們的事情沒有啦委員我們坐地沒有所以我們第一時間的時候大家一起看要怎麼來解決這個問題而且都緊急措施都出來所以我們大家的影響都沒有用到一點點所以剛才我才說你不要再去講說什麼善意善事實上沒有沒有這絕對也不是我們部門"},{"start":5684.136,"end":5686.637,"text":"也不能怪說立法院在野黨我們是為了要執行我們的監督權但是委員預算充足當然我們會比較好做因為我們時間的關係我們是監督你們你們要監督地方所以我們要要求你們的預算"},{"start":5707.606,"end":5711.348,"text":"很多的你們的預算拿過來我們要監督要來去說我們要動預算希望你們要把事情做好但是從5月份我們已經解凍了到現在所以你們有沒有加強這個宣傳嗎這個才是我們想要的不要再去講預算也沒有問題是預算的問題所以你們這講的做得很好"},{"start":5735.097,"end":5737.379,"text":"所以呢我們這邊最後因為時間的關係我們要強調的防疫是行政部門的責任也是我們的人民的事情不分藍綠所以我們不分中央或地方我們要在野黨的"},{"start":5754.189,"end":5757.55,"text":"凍結我們的預算是要行政單位要檢討制度因為我們從基層來的我們看到你們的預算一張一千萬兩張兩千萬基層的一本厚號才五萬三萬所以我們真的看了就是很難過啦確實要有效益啦所以不只就是防疫真正的檢討是說我們的執行的機制還有"},{"start":5784.847,"end":5790.869,"text":"制度的落動不是拿政治口水轉移焦點希望行政團隊要停止帶風向實際盤點這次的破口讓我們的人民安心也讓我們台灣重新站回非一的防線上這個才是你的工作目標才能達到執行的效率"},{"start":5812.378,"end":5817.162,"text":"我們都是這樣做 報告委員 我們也都是這樣做好 這樣做要有數據啊我問的這些數據 這個實體怎麼應做要實際的給我 不可以這樣用說的說也都是講空話 又沒有實體的數據 也沒有實體的做法我們要的是執行力 謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員 那這邊也請相關部會把資料趕快提供給委員這邊"},{"start":5842.534,"end":5844.396,"text":"現在我們請徐玉 曾文發言謝謝主席我們請警政署張署長 移民署林署長 房檢署杜署長 公務署彭署長請以上列席"},{"start":5875.731,"end":5896.756,"text":"好各位署長好我想其實這一次非洲豬瘟的問題其實都可以看到其實最大的問題可能就是在邊境執法的這個漏洞那當然我想在幾年前其實我們就已經宣布禁止從國外的網購出肉或肉品寄送入境對不對這個是屬於哪一位這邊負責的"},{"start":5901.528,"end":5928.508,"text":"報告委員這個豬肉跟含豬肉的製品都是禁止輸入的是幾年前宣布的這個政策是農業部那邊訂定海關是執行的好那為什麼最近有民進黨的立委說是時候禁止淘寶等中國電商寄送肉製品到台灣有這個可能性嗎這已經執行非常多年了所以說其實早就禁止了嗎根本沒有這個問題"},{"start":5929.557,"end":5957.27,"text":"事實上本席也有去到淘寶的網站點進去要買中國的豬肉事實上他是完全沒辦法買的他就告訴你中國是禁止這個輸入肉製品的所以我不是想說這個民進黨的立委他是有特殊的管道知道政府並沒有要嚴加的這個查緝網購的食品還是說本來就有很多的違規的部分在初檢的階段就已經被錯放了"},{"start":5958.406,"end":5973.198,"text":"請問一下署長有這個可能嗎報告委員因為從我們的查獲的統計數字來看大概去年有1100多件那今年直到現在有850件這是海關查獲的一個部分在邊境把手上查獲"},{"start":5974.076,"end":5992.013,"text":"所以大部分都是來自旅客啦旅客大概有占六成那郵包的部分大概會占三成左右所以其實關務署是很嚴格的在執行這樣子的一個事實上我們常出國搭機的時候都感受到其實關務署這邊是很非常的嚴格在執行那所以說"},{"start":5993.074,"end":6020.907,"text":"我想這個民進黨的立委不該造謠的就不要亂造謠不要老是用這樣子一個方式去讓大家覺得讓民眾恐慌或者是說這個什麼拼多多淘寶都是這個豬瘟的最大破口其實現在大家擔心的就是說因為從境外移入的時候就他們旅客剛剛講六成是旅客帶進來的那在這個查紀的過程中請問一下這個我們經由這個X光機的這個查驗有辦法真的百分之百的查驗到嗎"},{"start":6022.284,"end":6030.114,"text":"報告委員我們看X光機的話是利用它的顏色密度以及形狀那這六七年來我們都有建立資料庫那我們對同仁X光的這個判讀都有做訓練也有分級我們有分初級中級高級"},{"start":6038.772,"end":6059.527,"text":"那受過這些認證的都有400所以原則上在你們在做這樣的查驗其實是可以達到最高的效果然後我們也有經驗好那請問一下杜署長就是還有彭署長就是說我們邊境防疫的第一線人員像防檢犬導犬員跟X光查驗員的人力跟防疫犬有沒有缺口"},{"start":6061.894,"end":6084.153,"text":"其實如果說能夠再調高的話增加的話其實是有幫助的是有幫助的但以目前來講的話我們每年的查驗從海關這邊送過來的調查成案的部分那大概從12年到14年採取的這個案件所以這個部分目前聽起來是有缺口的嘛那要怎麼補強呢"},{"start":6086.614,"end":6111.126,"text":"我們在這個保全的部分那這個的部分其實也是落實在做啦那現在就是關務署的部分我們也希望說能夠在旅客的這個查驗的那個部分那可以再提高他的這個檢驗的一個次數所以關務署署長剛剛那個防檢所說要提高查驗次數你覺得是這個是主因嗎"},{"start":6113.149,"end":6127.743,"text":"我們現在因為要加強查核的一個力度那我們有要求我們這個同仁人工查驗的部分要提高一定的比例目前都雖然都經過百分之百的X光但是就人工查驗的部分我們要求我們已經都達到人力的一個極限了"},{"start":6132.08,"end":6150.877,"text":"極限就表示人力不足嘛所以這個部分你們有跟這個行政院提出比如說行政部啊每年我們都會檢討我們的人力跟財政部是不是需要跟行政院這邊來要求我們也都會跟人總來面都有要求那就是請行政院要針對這個部分要好好的來去審視我們的基層人力不足的問題喔"},{"start":6151.758,"end":6170.087,"text":"那當然我也要請教一下警政署長就是針對肉品偽報跟非法攜帶我們剛剛也看到說有一些是在夜市我們可以看到有一些可能是非法攜帶在販售的那請問針對這個部分我們警政署跟關務署跟海巡署是不是有情資共用的平台那針對這樣子的一個案件不管是"},{"start":6170.988,"end":6189.946,"text":"這個跨境電商或快遞案件建立及時追蹤系統那你們這三年有沒有這個查獲違規肉品的件數跟趨勢是不是有下降我們這個警視署的部分就是配合灌入署還有這個主管機關對於這個邊境的查驗那這五年來大概查了1593件這個豬肉大概2000公斤左右這個就是配合"},{"start":6194.79,"end":6206.921,"text":"那請問你們有沒有一個情資公用平台可以互相來要不然的話大家都在做一樣的事情那可能會很麻煩我們的工作是跟海關在一起的一起看的比如講像那個那我指的是比如說像夜市喔夜市的這個部分大概就是配合聯合稽查小組一起去配合因為我們要辨別這個部分就是由主管機關來做來做一個有聯合小組來做這件事情"},{"start":6222.114,"end":6238.38,"text":"那再請教一下這個杜署長就是說這一次這個在107年面對這個中國大陸的這個非洲豬瘟的疫情的時候當時雲林縣張縣長是全面禁止處於養豬那時任行政院的我們現在賴清德總統"},{"start":6239.534,"end":6252.242,"text":"院長他說因為大多數的縣市長都反對所以他沒有禁用廚餘養豬可是如果現在看起來的話如果七年前就可以禁用廚餘養豬的話現在其實就沒有這個問題因為我剛剛聽了其實不管各位署長的講法其實邊境管理事實上大家都盡了最大的努力重點是廚餘養豬因為你只要不用廚餘養豬就不會有這個問題了那當時賴總統說"},{"start":6267.254,"end":6283.962,"text":"不用處理養豬是因為大部分的縣市都反對那請問一下現在一般性補助款大部分的縣市也都反對啊希望趕快補給他們啊可是在總統也沒說因為大部分的縣都反對所以趕快一般性補助款要還給地方所以針對這個部分一農業部的專業來說覺得該不該禁用處理養豬"},{"start":6287.738,"end":6292.722,"text":"我覺得每個時代有它的時空背景不過以現在來講以現在上來講那這個廚餘的禁止與否其實是地方政府的權責所以現在政府是可以禁止的其實如果中央嚴格要求的話以全國一致性事實上金融廚養豬才是這一次我可以解決"},{"start":6306.954,"end":6322.756,"text":"非洲豬瘟最大的一個方向才對目前已經我們在跨部會的協調中那重點是還是地方以現在來講譬如雲林也好花蓮也好還有高雄市都是全面禁止廚藝的縣市所以如果說地方政府的話"},{"start":6323.277,"end":6340.643,"text":"依照自治的一個精神是可以禁止全面的這個其實如果中央要求的話你說地方禁止當然地方有事實上我跟你講要禁用廚餘養豬是非常的困難需要花很多的時間但雲林做得到相信全國都做得到所以對所以我覺得這個可以讓其他縣市來分享絕對做得到但要中央一致的一個法令"},{"start":6347.541,"end":6363.082,"text":"這樣的地方才不會無所適從那這個部分請這個我們署長要帶回去那那是不是各位請回喔那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘因為剛剛我有讓所有的署長大家有充分的去回答我要請管主委海務委會管主委跟海巡署張署長"},{"start":6369.255,"end":6384.086,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想請教一下因為最近在10月23號我們又在馬祖的北竿的沙灘發現有死亡的病豬那當然我們在這邊海漂的豬其實常常都發現那剛剛我也聽主委講說"},{"start":6385.014,"end":6405.359,"text":"基本上你們都把它當視為是非洲豬瘟的陽性而去做提早的處理那但是現在這一件喔它是通經由通報海巡署才知道所以說表示是不是我們的這偵查系統跟人力配置都不足所以常常都是由地方通報那我們海巡署才知道而去做處理"},{"start":6406.594,"end":6434.025,"text":"跟委員報告基本上官民聯防是整個海防當中的一部分那我們巡邏的時候我們會發現如果民眾看到民眾也都會知道通報目前以通報的跟我們主動發現的比例大概是多少我來統計一下數字我們會後統計給委員好不好我現在要主要要跟主委提醒的就是"},{"start":6434.665,"end":6450.406,"text":"因為我們現在看起來我們的人力確實有所不足所以在這個整個的這個偵查的系統會有這樣子的一個漏洞那也因為這樣子一個漏洞有可能造成一個破口所以今天在本席在這邊特別要跟主委提醒的就是說"},{"start":6451.897,"end":6461.265,"text":"針對這個人力的不足事實上是應該要跟行政院這邊來去要求我們人力不足應該要補足包括說我們是不是有固定的SOP把這個檢體跟移送的過程應該都有固定的這個部分百分之百"},{"start":6466.89,"end":6487.67,"text":"這個部分真的是百分之百的滴水不漏我們從出去的時候穿防護衣一到的時候馬上會控制現場因為環境的傾銷很重要我們會把那個防護線拉起來控制現場以後立刻就請這個防檢局到現場所以一定都通知地方政府那檢體呢 檢體怎麼移送"},{"start":6490.453,"end":6510.641,"text":"照防檢的程序會帶回去就做檢體那每一個案呢我們一定是出報續報到截報一定追蹤到檢體到底是陰性還是陽性最後請一下張署長請教一下張署長就是署內目前就執勤的艦艇按計的監控系統跟檢疫的器材是否足夠應付當前的一個勤務就是執勤的艦艇還有按計的監控系統跟檢疫的器材是否"},{"start":6519.963,"end":6544.295,"text":"足夠應付當前的勤務各位報告所有艦艇的監控系統跟偵測系統是夠的但是檢疫的部分不是我們海巡組來負責那請看一下這篇報導就是審計部跟基層你們的這個艦艇的缺人員都有提到其實現在海巡艦艇是人力不足的那所以說這個部分到底是什麼樣的原因"},{"start":6545.544,"end":6570.063,"text":"下請沒有辦法上達還是你們不了解事實上整體艦艇的人員是運用人數是不夠的跟委員報告我們艦艇的那個人員來是夠的那主要的那就是你們的調度有問題運用有問題有一個空窗期是因為招生跟特考進來進入的時間他大概有三到六個月的空窗期因為他們進來以後要再受訓然後再到艦艇上去服務我想請主委跟署長要正視這個問題因為不管是審計部不管是基層的這個我們的同仁"},{"start":6573.826,"end":6592.375,"text":"都有發出這樣的警訊所以針對這樣子的一個人力的不足跟人力的調配請要好好的檢討相關的問題那也希望說會後也給我相關的資料那當然我想最後要跟各位報告就是說其實這一次的疫情啊如果不幸擴大的話可能會癱瘓的是我們2000萬產值的養豬產業所以說非同小可也是希望大家在每一個關節裡面大家都能夠一起共同來防疫讓我們台灣可以繼續更好"},{"start":6602.423,"end":6610.09,"text":"在這邊也感謝各位謝謝謝謝徐毅臻委員謝謝列席的官員接下來我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長 管務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好 請移上官員列席"},{"start":6633.237,"end":6661.185,"text":"大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書校會委員職員回答本來就很好嘛就四評八聞的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力而這中央地方共同的責任"},{"start":6661.753,"end":6686.639,"text":"剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力這都很正常 這是口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎不會不會嘛 對不對它一定是境外移入那以署長的了解境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是它怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過當然從它的管道上來講"},{"start":6687.583,"end":6716.007,"text":"當然機場會是一個 港口也是一個那包括到說我們現在的移工 外勞那這些等等還有產品我這樣講 署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶嘛就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對 也有講走私第三種叫郵寄嘛"},{"start":6716.857,"end":6740.935,"text":"對不對 大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇大體上應該不脫這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委"},{"start":6741.96,"end":6758.207,"text":"你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢"},{"start":6759.247,"end":6780.693,"text":"農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚"},{"start":6781.133,"end":6797.887,"text":"整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎"},{"start":6799.034,"end":6816.73,"text":"委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們信全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣的每一個管道的問題是一樣的我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游"},{"start":6822.356,"end":6850.218,"text":"基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各知其職你就收好你的海上避免走失豬肉這本期要做一下提醒我們再回到杜署長第三個關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄這段時間我們都委員講說禁止淘寶或什麼東西我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年"},{"start":6852.059,"end":6860.281,"text":"107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼"},{"start":6862.351,"end":6885.216,"text":"目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳 這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對 這叫夾帶入境好 郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對 只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的 因為這個也牽扯到說"},{"start":6891.666,"end":6901.096,"text":"整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡來 我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已"},{"start":6903.277,"end":6929.831,"text":"是跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好講得真好這個郵寄郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理"},{"start":6934.065,"end":6959.563,"text":"是 郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間屬的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好 這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤"},{"start":6960.442,"end":6983.268,"text":"現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰二十萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你可以看投影片上違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰"},{"start":6985.133,"end":6998.7,"text":"誒本身要抓郵包已經很困難然後你還開一個首次非故意不予裁罰那難怪你一千多件掌握你只有九件裁罰報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀"},{"start":6999.898,"end":7003.623,"text":"人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查的到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛"},{"start":7019.782,"end":7046.9,"text":"也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對但你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反而了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛"},{"start":7049.962,"end":7060.249,"text":"我們現在 對 就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記好 來來來 關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道 要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題 你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員 這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛"},{"start":7079.774,"end":7108.388,"text":"我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為"},{"start":7109.315,"end":7128.314,"text":"不是 我現在講非故意拿掉 我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說 因為我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意 我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分 剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他 他可能都不知道所以要罰到"},{"start":7129.692,"end":7153.801,"text":"這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嘛這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除"},{"start":7160.376,"end":7173.886,"text":"我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰嘛"},{"start":7181.772,"end":7196.9,"text":"這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們先執行有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉"},{"start":7197.58,"end":7211.4,"text":"好不好農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦好不好"},{"start":7223.924,"end":7236.559,"text":"就是除了這個自己故意寄給自己然後被我們採發另外一種樣態就是說這個郵包他不知道是誰的他接到這個包裹了他發現是簡易物他也必須要交給我們如果沒有交出來的話也有罰則是3到15萬所以兩種樣態都有對應的罰則"},{"start":7239.588,"end":7251.795,"text":"沒關係你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情我們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考大家一起加油謝謝好我們請黃建斌召回質詢"},{"start":7271.141,"end":7283.29,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請內政部馬次長 安東衛部防疫署長還有財政部官務署長來 各位首長有請好 三位早安本期今天安排這樣的專案報告為什麼要特別強調"},{"start":7296.97,"end":7325.396,"text":"邊境檢疫跟查氣的這個機制就是因為其實剛才劉許庭委員講的很好病毒它不會自己生出來它一定是從外面進來的嘛它不會憑空出現在台灣它也不可能憑空出現在台中病毒一定是從境外進入到國內所以才導致這一次非洲豬的這個破口就像我們總統派院長去年公開的表示各單位一定要落實邊境管制嚴格把關"},{"start":7327.515,"end":7331.183,"text":"拒絕非洲豬瘟疫情於境外"},{"start":7335.28,"end":7361.551,"text":"農業部的我們的陳部長也自己也說說如果這次的病毒確定是非洲豬瘟的話必定是由境外傳入必定是由境外傳入這代表中央觀點非常清楚非洲豬瘟入侵的源頭不是在台中嘛他也不是在哪個特定的縣市這是外面傳去的我想這個大家都很清楚我想今天除了要探討這個屬於養豬啦 豬場管理啦 豬隻檢驗啦"},{"start":7362.847,"end":7384.421,"text":"最重要就是追本溯源就是從源頭的邊境檢疫還有查氣的制度來做好這個管控不要讓非洲豬瘟再進到我們國內我想這才是真正的要防堵豬瘟的這個關鍵因為你但邊境出現破口病毒如果傳進來國內之後你再多的疫調都是亡羊補狼那我想為了"},{"start":7385.903,"end":7413.925,"text":"這個防堵非洲豬瘟的疫情我相信本 而且相信地方政府絕對會全力配合中央也絕對願意提自主提高這個檢驗標準不過我們從這一次的這個豬瘟的這個入侵的事件來看中央邊際的檢驗標準還有查緝制度已經產生了破口那本席放在今天各部會的報告裡面都是滿滿都是強調績效如果說真的像我們政府說的這麼好那其他病毒可以照去唄我想這個我們大家好好思考一下那也要呼籲各部會"},{"start":7415.226,"end":7443.269,"text":"問題都發生的我們不該報喜不報憂我們正是這個缺失怎麼樣來落實來檢討改善他才會避免再次發生這樣問題我想這個今天排這個議程最重要的目的像這邊本席像也提出三個建議來請部委來演繹第一個就是強化入境的檢疫第二個就杜絕肉品透過包裹入境第三個就是提高罰則我想這三個東西很多委員都有提到這部分也請"},{"start":7444.321,"end":7461.29,"text":"我們將不會來研討這樣的問題來討論那也在兩個禮拜內提供本席一個報告來具體說明那我想這邊我最後我想最後我要利用點時間來請教安徽主委"},{"start":7468.78,"end":7497.879,"text":"是 專委好好 主委好所以本席今天還有另外安排就是海岸巡訪的這個審查我想我們防疫的部分先告一個段落我們現在討論這個部分就是我們希望提升第一線海巡人員執行的這個配備保護第一線人員的安全不過本席要趁這個機會來跟我們海巡人員來傳達一些心聲就是有基層的員警來跟我們反映說海巡署艦隊分署的這個警詞跟文詞有同工不同酬的這個問題"},{"start":7499.08,"end":7527.378,"text":"那目前我們的艦隊分屬的這個勤務人員分為警職就是水上警察部分還有文職就是海岸巡護的這個兩類那真是在海上執勤的時候承擔的風險跟執勤的這個勤務的內容他所需要的技能雖然都相容但是他的權益有非常大的落差像是這個危檢職務家級還有危勞人員的這個認定上面都可能造成你每個月的津貼以及我們這個退休替代率有很大的落差"},{"start":7528.191,"end":7543.728,"text":"那據本集了解海巡非常的特殊他是有軍警跟文三個不同的屬性在一起的這個單位也是因為這樣你如何確保同樣是第一線的人員之間的權益的平衡"},{"start":7545.239,"end":7571.436,"text":"那這個是 我想還是 這個是也避免影響世襲的關鍵那在這裡也要請主委得以了解說我們做一個全面性的來檢討 來盤點就是針對我們相關人員執勤的這個內容還有待遇上是不是有不合理甚至明顯有同工不同酬的地方如果是比較有的部分請主管機關研議提升第一線人員的這個相關的待遇跟福利以確保他的公平性也能夠增加我們"},{"start":7572.536,"end":7601.024,"text":"海巡署裡面的這個士氣那也請主委在一樣在會後兩週內給我一份報告來說好的非常感謝昭偉的關心昭偉真的非常深入的了解軍警文在一體的海巡署面對的這個同工不同酬的問題但是也跟昭偉報告我的報告會很快的在兩個禮拜內給昭偉但是呢每一種身份的人包括他們退休的制度也不一樣"},{"start":7601.624,"end":7620.809,"text":"各種家籍的狀況也都不一樣那我們是讓總體而言可以彌平這個同工不同酬的狀態但是譬如說文職的同仁他有加班費但是君子的同仁他就不以加班費來支給他就以其他的家籍來支給所以這個部分我們都容易在爭取"},{"start":7624.75,"end":7630.752,"text":"包括退休也是不一樣的隧道像現在警察的退休如果有三度通過的法令錄取的時候那個落差會變得很大所以請主委再那個落差會非常的大所以這個本席再次提到就是說請主委我們都一直在努力的在彌平"},{"start":7650.077,"end":7676.651,"text":"那最近的修法會讓那個落差非常嚴重的去加大我們都希望能夠照顧我們很希望能夠溝通然後能夠很專業的處理這個橫貧的問題最後一點時間我們這一次修法最主要就是希望能夠照顧為這個國家犧牲的這些弟兄這些不管是公務人員也好警消海巡也好或者是軍人也好他們為國家付出我們應該來照顧他"},{"start":7678.112,"end":7704.414,"text":"那至於制度的問題我想要希望有也拜託會裡面來研究畢竟會裡面的屬性比較特殊我們怎麼樣讓單位裡面各個不同來自不同環境的這些同仁能夠在同工單位裡面有會感受到有差異性的差別所以這個請主委在文職的落差會非常的巨大這個請主委會後再給本席資料那以上謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7707.306,"end":7732.82,"text":"謝謝黃建斌召委 下一位我們請徐欣穎委員質詢謝謝主席 本席有請內政部次長馬次長"},{"start":7740.452,"end":7767.332,"text":"委員好次長好我想前面的委員大家也都非常的重視我們的邊境管控怎麼樣嚴防吸入本席看到內政部的報告裡面只強調篩檢39個重點航班本席不禁想要詢問難道朱溫的病毒它只會搭乘重點航班嗎"},{"start":7768.789,"end":7795.474,"text":"跟委員報告我們是39個疫區國家的航班不是只有39個航班所以航班制度蠻多的39個疫區國家那我請問中轉旅客的行李中轉旅客行李還有小型漁船的走私當然剛剛前面的委員也有問到包含離島口岸還有快遞貨物這些查緝強度如何補足報委我們現在"},{"start":7798.243,"end":7815.755,"text":"基本上39個疫區國家很中轉的部分我們都會查驗所以只要是有經過疫區國家來的航班的旅客我們會查驗那疫區國家目前是農業部根據WAH的這個標準來公告它是不只39個所以 對 所以"},{"start":7816.744,"end":7836.81,"text":"就如果不是疫區國家我們都這個就不可能這個豬瘟的病毒就不會進來嗎是這樣疫區國家跟非疫區國家差異在於說我們如果是非疫區國家的旅客入境的話我們還是會在邊境有海關的人員做抽檢所以他的這個抽檢的這個動線是不一樣你一定會抽檢到有的"},{"start":7843.183,"end":7857.806,"text":"有猪瘟病毒的你一定会抽检到吗这就是问题好没关系接着那小型渔船走私这个部分怎么办那是海巡那麻烦海巡"},{"start":7861.94,"end":7874.65,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在從107年開始那個鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的案例以後我們從107年開始對於進港的所有傳播都百分之百安檢到現在強度都沒有減低是"},{"start":7879.865,"end":7895.027,"text":"所有的小型渔船也都一片安静接着次长继续我们现在整个在防疫上我们还在用传统的X光机"},{"start":7896.212,"end":7924.233,"text":"搭配人工判毒肉眼戰術這個國際好像都已經進入AI智能防疫了我們還是用人力人工這個部分我們人的疲勞還有科技的落差這個部分要加強改善好我們目前有跟委員報目前有AI的判試模組有AI的什麼大聲一點判試模組我們已經在進行了已經進行到怎麼樣"},{"start":7926.708,"end":7953.817,"text":"請問我們現在有升級嗎X光機就是我們配合這個灌入所就海關那個儀器對於判讀的那個顏色形狀都可以來做這樣的一個判讀也是先進的這個X光儀器是儀器判讀不是人工判讀我們人是看儀器的判讀檢查過X光那顯示在螢幕上根據它的顏色"},{"start":7954.777,"end":7965.122,"text":"跟他的圖樣 最終還是人工做最後的判定那一樣啊你所有的AI也是要靠AI沒有辦法AI影像也是會顯現出來應該是也會把這個影像顯現出來是要靠我們人去做這樣的說這個是不是屬於豬肉品"},{"start":7973.926,"end":7999.716,"text":"那把它分離出來我想這個部分AI的話它跳出來的我們就應該我們就應該直接就可以那個啦所以我們看到那個圖檔是屬於現在全面了嗎現在X光機都我們配合關於屬大概都全面在因為我們大概都全面到底全面的還是光線的全面全面連19的X光機我剛剛跟文報告一下X光機是線型的啊你現在有用AI影像判讀嗎"},{"start":8000.596,"end":8025.079,"text":"這個部分是有做結合的啦我跟委員報剛剛那個疫區那個部分就是三十五條疫區那個是全那個是那個是防檢署是所有的旅客的所攜帶的這些我們全檢啦那其他的國家也是的通行李來我們還跟海關也一直在在入境的部分也是透過醫生來檢查那所提的部分在這有海關來做抽檢"},{"start":8026.385,"end":8048.922,"text":"所以我們整個的防線絕對不能有縫隙我們也不能有科技落伍的這種系統潰敗絕對不行這部分我們應該是在更精進更精進看世界各國的狀況來執行本席要請農業部謝謝請回座本席想請農業部那個昭偉不好意思我們今天不是要請部長結果也沒有次長來"},{"start":8051.595,"end":8077.623,"text":"因為今天在這個威環他們也有特別請過假農業部現在兩個還三個次長三位次長都沒有一個人可以來這一個還在那個前進中心那邊那我們請的是署長杜署長我們現在因為非洲豬瘟所以我們這個禁止全面禁止用廚餘來養豬"},{"start":8081.937,"end":8086.82,"text":"署長我比較想問部長整個農業部有沒有了解廚餘啊你現在完全禁止的情況下"},{"start":8092.719,"end":8115.224,"text":"署長您今天來就代表部長他是跨部會的議題那也都在處理我知道你就是指環境部但是這個指令當你要下說全面禁止廚餘的時候那有沒有考慮到豬農他的成本你現在廚餘這麼多他都沒有了一個縣市都是幾百噸上千噸的"},{"start":8116.794,"end":8141.011,"text":"我在這裡要請署長要帶回去因為廚餘你們整個農業部有沒有了解廚餘廚餘除了分生廚餘跟熟廚餘之外其實還有一個更重要的重點它是固態跟液態所以有人建議說要高溫蒸煮本席的了解是高溫蒸煮"},{"start":8142.072,"end":8157.046,"text":"固態的廚餘它內部不會它溫度不會那麼高你說要煮久一點一般他們也不可能因為那浪費它的能源成本所以固態跟液態分離除以固態液態分離"},{"start":8158.41,"end":8187.096,"text":"液態可以很容易他就會煮沸那這個煮沸之後其實是還是可以等於他等於病毒殺死他還是可以當這個養豬的您的看法怎麼樣報告委員只要是廚藝當原料來餵養豬隻我們關注的重點就是病毒要不活化的溫度那他就是90度一個小時這個是一定要觀測的對"},{"start":8189.013,"end":8199.327,"text":"所以您的意思是就算固液態分離他也沒辦法把病毒殺死嗎液態我要講是除以收來以後它是一個液態的嘛對不對除以收來有固液態都有"},{"start":8205.875,"end":8232.01,"text":"都有啦其實理論上來講因為有時候水分就比較高那水分比較高你要當作餵養豬隻的時候你一定要蒸煮然後攪拌一個小時一個小時但從現在目前到了90度還要一個小時還是從開始煮開始90度以上一個小時這樣子你們就准許他"},{"start":8232.99,"end":8253.832,"text":"拿廚餘去餵豬是不是我再報告一下現在廚餘這個管控是由環境部交由各地方政府去做處理那在過去的協調機制裡面地方政府要要求我們的環保單位要要求廚餘飼養豬隻的部分一定要做到所以他第一個他一定有檢核廠"},{"start":8255.609,"end":8272.039,"text":"那第二個他去看他的當日上傳的資料影片有沒有落實那第三個假設有異樣那個集合大隊是一定要到這個現場去集合看他有沒有照這個標準程序去走"},{"start":8273.281,"end":8301.109,"text":"那目前掌握的是有幾個漏洞本席想建議的就是其實除於他應該是可以固液態分離固態的去堆肥固態的去堆肥他也不會去餵豬液態的您剛說對了一點液態的他佔了70%到80%他液態的他容易煮廢他容易煮廢那液態的煮廢之後他就煮廢以後要持續一個小時"},{"start":8301.869,"end":8317.771,"text":"才能夠把病毒殺所以這個才是關鍵才能夠讓他不活化所以重點就在假設他煮完像我們一般煮東西開了我就把它關掉對不起病毒了對 人在那邊還是活化狀態所以為什麼要持續那個小時要貫徹"},{"start":8320.007,"end":8334.286,"text":"就是非常重要所以现在你们的这个厨余还是可以养猪只要照符合这个程序不行这段时间都不行对所以重点是不行的原因是是什么原因"},{"start":8335.64,"end":8359.634,"text":"我們現在已經禁載禁運那因為現在廚藝的風險高因為風險高所以完全禁止就對了在這段時間435戶的廚藝廠全部禁止那你們對於這些豬農他們長期本來都有配合的對不對他們現在突然間他哪裡那麼多飼料餵豬你們有補助嗎我跟委員報告有關"},{"start":8364.336,"end":8373.663,"text":"廚餘養豬這個的政策已經在檢討慢慢的第一個階段一定要落實去檢核不是你現在下令了你現在下令你現在這樣的下令你知道豬農他們的衝擊嗎不是"},{"start":8377.766,"end":8383.832,"text":"我們都知道每一個層級都會受到因為為了防疫但是有關除獄養豬退場的議題也正在研擬配合環境部跟我們部裡面在研擬什麼的方式退場而能夠減少到除獄養豬的衝擊包括可能轉換飼料那轉換飼料之間有什麼獎勵的措施或退場"},{"start":8403.775,"end":8422.55,"text":"或退場等等我現在講的是他們現在每天每天豬都要吃啊他們受到的衝擊你們有沒有任何措施這才是真正影響豬農最大的是那再跟報告委員就是這段15天的時候針對廚餘養豬戶也有給他們在飼料平台的媒合也給予一些相關的協助不會影響到他們目前你們準備多少來補助"},{"start":8432.557,"end":8457.461,"text":"有有都你補助他們幾趴講不出來沒有沒有明確的我們會根據這樣的飼料差額去給他們補助就像之前在飼料差額意思說他因為這個衝擊多出來要買飼料的你們全額補助嗎我們就是會依照相關的這樣的一個我們有在其實在110年的時候9月我們就已經有處理過這樣的一樣"},{"start":8458.041,"end":8475.852,"text":"的一個做法當時也是有跟這個農民有互相那這一次我們就會用一樣的這樣的一個計算的方式來補助他們在這一段時間因為要轉去買飼料然後做一些這樣的一個你們要深入去了解讓他們衝擊最小 好不好 以上謝謝謝謝謝謝徐議心委員接下來我們請吳啟明委員"},{"start":8494.152,"end":8507.341,"text":"好 召委我們與會同仁 請我們黃建吉局長署長請你上官員內席還有官務署官務署署長好 署長"},{"start":8520.441,"end":8547.141,"text":"這一次非洲豬瘟造成台灣的恐慌過去我們在去年6月還世界動物衛生組織還認證台灣是非疫情國家所以這個已經在我們世界上大家都公認台灣的防疫做得非常好但是這一次也破洞讓我們台灣大家都造成恐慌"},{"start":8548.512,"end":8571.725,"text":"因為你身為民動職務的防疫署長這是你的業務 針對我們的業務 我看到裡面查緝一些非法帶入的肉品還查獲了三千多件那這是我們的防疫有出問題了未來要怎麼解決這個問題 這是重點因為做成這樣 你說現在大家"},{"start":8577.987,"end":8584.509,"text":"一些養豬戶啊他們的心聲這真的是情何以堪請署長來回答謝謝委員我分出兩個部分如果是說針對我們現在處理電商平台外來進入的部分那我們有兩個措施第一就是他的自主管理"},{"start":8599.592,"end":8614.748,"text":"所以說只要是肉品的部分那他就禁止禁止他要自我管理不能夠輸入不能接單第二個就是屏蔽屏蔽只要有訂單有一些相關的類似的這個的字眼他就有屏蔽措施也是不能訂購進來我們的這個裡面"},{"start":8618.291,"end":8644.027,"text":"那如果進到國內的時候那我們有聯合的一個在我們的郵包的跟快遞那邊有個聯合的一個作業那各單位全部都共同在那邊也會掃過我們的S光然後我們的這個檢疫學也會輔佐就用這樣的全面性來做那至於說在這個海關的部分所以我就請海關來做補充說明好的好我們關務署是"},{"start":8647.583,"end":8670.403,"text":"在海關的部分我們分我們是負責通商口岸那通商口岸的話就包括旅客郵包快遞跟一般的貨櫃那郵包的部分的話是郵局會幫海關做分流的一個高風險來的他會先做分流分流然後海關就高風險的貨物加強來檢驗跟查核"},{"start":8670.916,"end":8698.399,"text":"那快遞的部分我們是依照風險管理的一個概念篩選出高風險地區來的以及高風險的業者執行這個查核那在貨櫃的部分我們因為貨櫃量一年有700多萬份所以我們是用抽驗的方式旅客的部分我們是X光的部分拖運行李比如說桃園機場那邊拖運行李都是在地下室100%經過X光那"},{"start":8699.204,"end":8723.698,"text":"所提行李的部分我們分三道防線第一道防線是由防檢署那邊去負責那如果那邊沒有丟棄的話他從海關的紅綠線通關綠線通關的話我們會把他攔查攔查的話查到我們就會移送給防檢署來處罰以上先做這樣的說明對因為我看了查集的資料光是肉品就3400多件那"},{"start":8725.025,"end":8751.259,"text":"這個數量是真的非常的多啦然後我們電視媒體還有透過一些宣導大家應該國人都很清楚啊那為什麼還會有這個漏洞這是我們的宣導還是不夠吧報告委員當然這部分主管機關跟我們都會一再的加強宣導啦那有些民眾可能還是有一些疏忽或者是有故意想要這個可能"},{"start":8753.497,"end":8778.655,"text":"違規攜帶這些物品進來都有各種狀態都有我們查獲的旅客跟郵包會比較多那通常都是旅客也許是不小心攜帶進來也許是故意要攜帶進來對因為我們現在事情發生是要解決事情是所以說我們的關路署這樣可能是人力也吃緊了因為畢竟我們旅客數量也太多但是現在很多都來自中國"},{"start":8780.6,"end":8801.67,"text":"社群網站平台購物所以說這種真的裡面查緝也是有點困難但是這種沒辦法因為事實上我們的資料裡面也是很多還有含肉品的也是在社群網購裡面來購買這一點一定要特別的注意好謝謝委員這個海關不會鬆懈的確"},{"start":8804.232,"end":8825.541,"text":"那一天啊入境的旅客就有7萬多人啦那我們一天啊大概有十七八萬份的快遞的一個報單啦那郵包的部分一天就有4000件量的確非常一個大但是海關還是會在邊境上竭盡全力來防堵好的好謝謝謝謝請我們處長你講廚藝的部分我剛聽到很多委員的建議但是廚藝其實廚藝可以做"},{"start":8834.542,"end":8846.199,"text":"做肥料好你說好你做飼料可能說好還有寒帶裡面的細菌那你來做肥料那應該都沒問題那你肥料你就要怎樣來補助"},{"start":8848.278,"end":8876.915,"text":"是不是能夠北中南各設一場由我們公家單位來做因為公家單位我們全部都是用公會來做這樣他們也都願意因為廚藝現在都造成整個市場的恐慌嘛因為大家民生剩餘的東西都特別的多或是說現在這個你們要考慮我們農業部這邊考量說廚藝是不是統一由公家來做"},{"start":8878.97,"end":8895.161,"text":"是 報告委員這是其實是環境部的權責但是因為我們有共同跨部會議那從他們的報告跟資料裡面我知道是廚餘的部分他們目前除了這個有些養豬以外"},{"start":8895.641,"end":8916.848,"text":"那做肥料跟做生殖能源等等這些開發的部分也做的很多所以他們也慢慢的要轉型就是轉型到譬如飼料肥料做肥料或者做生殖能源尤其肥料的部分最主要他們在做的你要怎麼補足補助大家都沒辦法很公平"},{"start":8917.389,"end":8936.697,"text":"有的補助比較多有的補助比較少你絕對沒辦法做好你你說要怎麼取得一個很公平性就是由我們公家單位出面看是要怎樣來統籌吸收他們的經驗他們的技術都可以聽說日本做得很好事情來改革你說由公家的單位來做"},{"start":8939.358,"end":8954.529,"text":"我們全國設了三場我相信說這廚藝絕對都可以解決因為你可以做肥料農民都需要肥料我們肥料就算便宜還是免費給他們都可以經過這廚藝才能改觀好 我一定會轉達給農業環境部好的 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8965.802,"end":8995.306,"text":"好謝謝吳清明委員接下來我們請李博義委員發言來謝謝有請移民署署長防疫署署長還有公務署署長好移民署防疫署還有公務署"},{"start":9001.065,"end":9027.747,"text":"謝謝林署長其實今天是在補破網那很遺憾還是有一些單位沒有被邀請到包含我們這個廚餘該怎麼解決我覺得很遺憾那感覺這樣子的安排好像是就認定是境外但我覺得境外有很多方式"},{"start":9028.527,"end":9054.679,"text":"那最重要的是宣傳最重要的就是宣導那我們的宣導到底遇到什麼問題宣傳到底遇到什麼問題不是只有對這個養豬戶宣導我覺得境外這種要回國的等等的這些宣導也很重要然後包含關務署這個必須要這種購買"},{"start":9058.615,"end":9080.85,"text":"大量可能中國的豬肉製品也是有可能的那這些宣導在去年度在今年度的預算有沒有遇到什麼問題在這裡跟委員做一個報告齁其實坦白講這個有關這個被刪了多少講快一點我們總共在我們移民署的部分大概被刪了一千萬宣導經費嗎公務署有嗎"},{"start":9085.177,"end":9093.579,"text":"有關於這部分是主管機關來編列預算我們沒有編列預算我們公務署每年的宣導預算大概十幾萬左右來請這個防疫署長你這邊有宣導預算被刪嗎我們是有刪但是我跟委員報告 被刪多少不知道 原來是三六成三六成"},{"start":9113.71,"end":9133.334,"text":"誰三的你去調查一下公諸於世好嗎第二個最重要的事情就是疫調現在疫調遇到什麼問題10月28號我們農業部的記者會說台中市政府有10個缺失請問補正了嗎署長補正了嗎"},{"start":9138.035,"end":9151.784,"text":"這十個缺失我們在我們在收到他們的出版的時候那確實還有八項有待提出進一步的那八項包括到說你認為最嚴重的是哪一項我認為是整個人的一個調查人的調查對因為包括到續組你包括他的兒子續組說一開始有請一個獸醫啦然後沒有投藥這一些過程"},{"start":9165.908,"end":9194.197,"text":"你認為台中市政府應該要怎麼做要交代清楚因為這涉及到防疫的作為他有交代清楚了嗎目前為止是沒有目前還沒有對不對還沒有好那我再問你一個問題好第一例到底什麼時候目前依照他疫調初步疫調的判斷他的發病從異常的發病是10月10號你確定是10月10號嗎還是更早所以這個一定要追查所以一定要現在還沒查出來這個事關所有的養豬戶"},{"start":9195.424,"end":9224.029,"text":"他到底什麼時候才可以把株枝運出來報告委員到目前為止所有印我們現在所有的檢測都是陰性那我現在強調的是說他的這個是10月14號抽驗所以往前推15天所以應該是9月30號所以從9月30號的我們都要追我們這些廚餘的這些來源是不是要定期通報"},{"start":9225.834,"end":9254.288,"text":"那請問台中市政府這一個案子有沒有問題檢核廠是一定要目前從他們回報的資料裡面在檢核廠的這個管理上跟集合上是有輸入什麼輸入你說譬如從資料上顯示那個檢核廠他固定一定要通報但是他沒有通報什麼時候開始沒有通報好像是從他們資料好像是五月開始五月五月六月是不是"},{"start":9254.997,"end":9283.164,"text":"因為這個是環境部現在目前在追查的那請問你農業部這個房檢署你現在應該做什麼防疫全面防疫全面防疫但是台中這個案子是不是應該要把他這個案例公諸於世讓全國所有包含目前養豬戶很多縣市包含雲林縣包含屏東縣包含彰化縣最多養豬戶的這一些我們要"},{"start":9284.639,"end":9312.55,"text":"要落實的宣導我們現在是採取台中犯了什麼錯讓雲林屏東彰化不要再犯這種錯是是借鏡對所以我們的這個每天都有災防中心的會議那就把這個相關的資訊都會在那裡來做討論那也利用這個平台讓所有的防疫人員跟各縣市大家都可以了解跟掌握而且加強他們各自的好那我再問一個問題"},{"start":9314.312,"end":9337.79,"text":"台中的整個疫調什麼時候你會有一個精準的說明對於國人是昨天下午三點多的時候那這個剛剛說還有八項缺失那這八項你要怎麼清楚說明如果這些雲林屏東彰化他還沒有get到你的這些資訊的話他到底要怎麼防疫我跟委員報告所以說"},{"start":9339.491,"end":9354.344,"text":"讓所有的縣市同步一起啟動所有的緊急防疫作為以及掌握到這個資訊是非常重要所以為什麼我們一直在追查台中市而且也加強高密度追查台中市是什麼高密度譬如說我們現在的作為追查台中市是什麼包括第一階段的觀念場他到底這些廚餘沒有回報從5月開始我看到是8月你說5月開始沒有回報那到底是來源到底是哪裡斷斷續續這個要宣導嘛"},{"start":9366.974,"end":9376.038,"text":"這是你要宣導嘛你被砍了六成的預算委員我跟委員報告我們是有分工你被砍了六成的預算你宣導遇到什麼問題當然啦就是說像我們因為我們宣導的面很廣除了國人以外在飛機上在飛機上也要製作短片然後定期的你被砍六成預算你到底少做了什麼你被砍六成預算你到底少做了什麼你講"},{"start":9396.204,"end":9423.513,"text":"講不出來就是少了嘛當然不是你的問題嘛你少做了什麼你要知道嘛你要講嘛我們要加回來我們現在在補貨王啊有這個的部分現在都加緊在做了你講不出來啊我不是講不出來可不可以趕快檢討出來我們都有可不可以趕快檢討出來趕快把這些預算追回來"},{"start":9424.602,"end":9441.616,"text":"大家都在補破網台中的案例要一項一項一項列出來給其他縣市參考雲林屏東彰化沒有報告委員確實所以我們現在目前從開始都有同步在做謝謝謝謝李博弈委員接下來我們請謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":9456.958,"end":9463.499,"text":"主席請博士長我們博長拜託一下博士長你好檢協的一定要換你檢協的同胞表請你在這禮拜來跟國管局有私底的管局"},{"start":9485.591,"end":9498.215,"text":"所有的對於這份的檢測的通報表請你分析好 我要轉達環境部如期提出你剛才說的嘛 國會開始嘛不是不是 其他各縣市跟台中的包括台中的這禮拜來提供分析是是是 好不好好 我要轉達 再來剛才你說說不出來有很多選擇你沒做"},{"start":9515.272,"end":9529.903,"text":"屬實的都有責 我知道你們都有責所以你要說你沒有責 所以做成這個破口對你有比較危難啦 不是這樣啦我要做在大隊基座裡面來 好 謝謝 補充補充辛苦了你是內閣裡面的 閣門的 教授真的在基站出來透過民意檢驗 非常了解民意的面積多的人"},{"start":9545.643,"end":9564.533,"text":"謝謝 本席對你的包括這個馬太安山的岩石瓦曾經跟你談過這是一個真無關跟實無關不一樣的地方擔當這個領領嘛純粹有問題是面對包括龍藥堡你看像現在岩珠靠的這種事情就提早處理了過去如果是馬太安山在要封台你還沒成立彩虹中心的時候"},{"start":9574.005,"end":9594.011,"text":"就已經去處理今天還沒這樣的事情但是看到十五個月後整個內閣都已經在這種小的地方想辦法給提供花蓮關一半又想辦法要給提供台中市 我覺得沒意思是沒啦你覺得沒嘛 沒就好了你如果沒 其他人就不要再在那邊喝茶聽話"},{"start":9599.324,"end":9601.866,"text":"為什麼要去拜訪蘇營中蘇營中來自地方嘛"},{"start":9609.226,"end":9624.856,"text":"他在地方做過管道嘛 所以地方的管道很清楚嘛風雨這個事情完全是中庸的一種 中庸的靈魂嘛所以 蘇國 蘇伊洲你看看 他冬季是大雨的甚至他第一時間去到海關 去到島嶼的四環雖然他有針對性 我們坦白說對中國大陸大隔空的"},{"start":9636.321,"end":9646.027,"text":"也是他收下來了他是不是收下來了我知道啦 所以就遇到這一段話來就是都要拚剩低啊拚到破口出來沒辦法啊這台中怎麼樣台中大家都說要去台中後來他再去找整個行政議長 所謂情欲"},{"start":9662.344,"end":9666.452,"text":"所以中央地方沒有通力合作破口就會出來嘛"},{"start":9668.015,"end":9673.479,"text":"很簡單啊 結果 我知道要努力啦但是啦 太多像你這樣啦 齁 知道說事情在哪裡最重要啦 不能做的不白 聽的料到你賠對不對我不會誤會啦 我每天在觀察 我才會誤會吃得好 吃得好 你臨山吃一口就沒用了我做你 出入境是你管的啦"},{"start":9697.995,"end":9701.518,"text":"我一個進來 海關不是你關的啦結果 我問那個官員所有的行李就對了 就是要檢查 我說感冒無盡 我看這一年多來 我出出入入每次都把我帶去檢查 都過X光啊 前後有疑問 他就檢查非常的厭倦啊 他說對啊 我們就是都這樣啊所以我認為這個"},{"start":9727.261,"end":9734.107,"text":"英鴻啊 汴階啊 隨時看有什麼也沒有關係結果三天兩晚就拿背在三五省本身在這裡請教你就是說對這個立憲的部分 到今天你不知道破口就到了你不知道來源是什麼了就開始在整理操作 這不是處理事情的味覺"},{"start":9749.912,"end":9756.838,"text":"沒有啦 今天在這裡大家其實都很自然是啊 但是大家都說話待遲啊 不然可能有誤會啊不然想要塞...不會塞到地方來作出政治利益 我跟你說啦 賣錢啦絕對賣錢啦譬如說啊 剛才在說廚藝的部門 因為我等一下要過來問朋友"},{"start":9772.199,"end":9779.1,"text":"全世界人在噴是怎樣噴可以做治療他不是輕輕的噴給你吃不是這樣開多久 開幾十年了 這裡更嚴重噴化做治療是大家的喔大家保護 它不會有滴溶滴溶的身份有完的感覺雖然不像在吃噴吃的 但是安全保障"},{"start":9797.642,"end":9802.465,"text":"我待會要看他是不是要去做了所以我本身跟你建議海關這裡不要再牽扯到海關上有破口了我去那裡出出入入他們對出入境的管理我們坦白說做了有螺絲這就送機時送移到去到那裡的時候到今天你沒改變這幾天來所有的委員我問起來出入大家都"},{"start":9825.202,"end":9829.104,"text":"你跟維吾爾也一樣啊 跟小卡邦一樣很嚴重但是我們的出入境就對了所有對東南亞來的 因為他們是文化不一樣的他們很喜歡吃故鄉的烤肉有時候在進來的時候 還是安裝 不知道 嚴重的沒有他們吃出來的 等於是噴了所以今天大家會把這個目標 放在這個噴裡面"},{"start":9852.654,"end":9862.138,"text":"阿本來在你現在禁毒 禁運我是認為 你要把你的精神 斷了以後 現在歸來過你已經超過抖音了 因為他的心態 跟你不一樣"},{"start":9866.144,"end":9875.27,"text":"對這個負責任的態度 譬如說 給你負責的 你負責你只要說你負責 該不是你的是都會補的你把他站出來 但是他總要叫起來 哼 屁都不給我負責所以真的啊 要不然他就沒辦法我再說一遍 我說媽太安靜了 你就跟我說就是都會補的 囂張他總要叫起來 他總要跟你說東南 他們是西北"},{"start":9895.134,"end":9906.339,"text":"那就沒意思了政府官如果不要負責任下面的事務官大家就廉罰嘛因為我們可以不用說啊會有操控不能說啊反正拚的時候喔拚的時候就有側翼的替我們說啊我沒有跟你們講過這件事你們是不是記不住人我沒有記不住人你公園社福這就是農業部的譴責嘛但是你有啦你的部分就是你的部分就是救災指揮中心的指揮官"},{"start":9924.827,"end":9928.69,"text":"所以我跟妳談到那天我跟妳講那老婆對老婆對不是老婆我不是老婆對 我主委對不對 我跟妳講這樣跟妳討論這是台獨的問題啦"},{"start":9953.598,"end":9964.184,"text":"所以你們下去進步齁這個勞保長的態度齁要出來啦你聽到沒有你要學習這個保長的作風啦他很優秀的 我要給他學習對不起 委員謝謝感謝你謝謝謝同志委員"},{"start":9991.711,"end":9993.652,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現在請丁薛忠委員感謝教委我請我們的防疫署署長謝謝"},{"start":10021.528,"end":10023.989,"text":"館主委 鄉長 國長 不錯齁沒事沒事在這齁 我先感謝我們市長 市長 六月 國王來跟我們委員會齁 感謝你們開關 作會對著我們這個防疫的第一手來守候 也先感謝你們 先候你們齁當這個疫情 非洲豬瘟發生之後 咱全國的擁地齁"},{"start":10051.547,"end":10054.288,"text":"大家都非常驚訝尤其是我們福林縣我們有這樣全國三省的用地一千三百多一千兩百多我們這裡的防疫單位一百五十幾萬頭的地所以這已經未來風雨風雪這對這裡的用地是都非常重大的一個影響在這裡要請問我們的署長以前"},{"start":10080.475,"end":10086.137,"text":"發生這幾天我們中國用地庭 用地庭跟外面地庭的消毒跟調查確定我們中華的那個東北化現場另外的已經發生了是 報告委員 開始我們全面性包括我們所有地庭的紡繕跟這個什麼我們55場的這個屠宰場跟我們8場的這個化製場"},{"start":10109.565,"end":10117.79,"text":"那以及我們的觀念場的試試場那不管是消毒而且監測監測所有監測都是陰性到目前為止都是陰性所以我們個人不能夠掉以輕心因為我們現在跨入到第二階段所以這個全國的防疫上更重要更吃緊那我們更要努力去做感謝蘇長"},{"start":10129.577,"end":10139.12,"text":"我們以前控制中又禁止屠宰我們又禁止屠宰我們這裡的用地這裡都開口因為建議說不要用這個廚藝來市場這裡可以來觀光和學生"},{"start":10145.882,"end":10146.443,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們一個應變中心是跨部會"},{"start":10162.365,"end":10166.829,"text":"所以保證在那處理企業的時候都有針對環境部 環境部的也是他們相關的署長都有來包括到也跟那個彭部長這邊都有共識就是說現在我們435號用處理企業的這個部分那現在我們禁止期間是不是針對他們的這個受到影響的這個飼料因為我們把轉型到飼料的"},{"start":10185.847,"end":10207.373,"text":"來餵飼嘛那這個部分是不是有一個相關的一個補貼的一個措施那另外是說未來要寧定更長期的是不是協助這435戶轉型到不用這個廚餘來做養豬這個都已經列入到實質的一個討論方案那確定以後就會對外來做公佈我跟廚長分析一下我們分析館長100公斤的全民來建設這個廚餘養豬"},{"start":10215.08,"end":10217.18,"text":"開復用車沒問題還要尊敬會議的規定都非常多那都沒問題但是勝過是非常成功大家看都應該會知道是我們婚姻剛好有一天發生在那裡出發場我們希望說我們以婚姻成功的安慰我們當每一個關係他們要繼續在處理養豬"},{"start":10245.114,"end":10246.875,"text":"我們可以來協助協助國管局來建設一個廚化廠來針對這個廚藝化學化學之後我們還可以做有機工藝"},{"start":10258.24,"end":10262.942,"text":"這對我們的農民成功分流,我以前做好位定調,現在我都當選,分農管教都當選,我們第一的進程,建築這個廚藝養殖,來做這個有機果,集齊我們的小農,大家都收集,來討這個有機果,我感覺這是一個很好的方式,希望說,"},{"start":10283.968,"end":10284.689,"text":"我們都要說要趕快想好對稱來向行政院來過個好風險對著未來我們這個風機非洲豬瘟的發生可以經營可以控制住"},{"start":10301.84,"end":10308.283,"text":"其實這個廚餘 也未來的政策其實中央行政院也很認識 那也要求我們農業部跟環境部大家共同來討論 什麼順利的來做轉型我這裡也要另外報告就是說 文靈關係我們少數公 廚餘禁止養豬的縣市模範縣市 那現在就是說"},{"start":10324.449,"end":10337.927,"text":"我們這個保分而且輔導他做這個有機質的工廠這是一個也是一個很好的一個示範我想這個部分環保署大概將來的這個模式都會輔導來做那這裡也跟這個委員來做報告"},{"start":10342.193,"end":10347.035,"text":"我們是有三間化智廠啦 我在這也要特別感謝啦因為我們 雲林也好 我們屏東也好 都有三間啦我們全台灣有八間 原來是九間 一間是沒有的沒有運作的 所以這八間喔 都在幫我們倒三天 但是我們也是有特別要求說化智廠的"},{"start":10362.981,"end":10370.763,"text":"消毒非常重要還有環境的採檢也非常重要所以現在都有這樣在做到目前為止也都是陰性 報告你在這裡感謝蘇長還有一位幫蘇長報告一位因為我們現在已經對中小型的用地風影響非常大"},{"start":10385.047,"end":10388.029,"text":"因為貸款更適又更好的中小息期可能會造成我們這個低農租金出現風險"},{"start":10395.459,"end":10413.485,"text":"這樣原來 原廚原來建議是不是可以來考量延長他們大規模的年限以及來檢討他們這個金融的負債對 報告這個部長都沒有交代所以現在農金署針對這個金融支持針對養豬戶在這段時間過渡期他資金緊張要金融支持都你認定了會對外再做詳細的公佈所以我給你報告感謝 這樣在這段時間"},{"start":10424.528,"end":10425.671,"text":"我們近期的時間,我們用地殼的治療費用會增加除此之外"},{"start":10431.82,"end":10438.064,"text":"他就向兩屆委員他就給我分了說現在我們這個地方用治療來治我們有沒有辦法是其實我們都已經討論這個方案應該在行政討論確定但是就等宣布啦那應該是最快時間這一週內應該就會對外宣布受受到應用的包括我們的豬籠包括我們的屠宰場包括我們的花枝場包括我們的養豬戶以及"},{"start":10461.561,"end":10469.551,"text":"我們經濟部所管轄的攤商這個部分全部都是在我們研擬的名單的受補助的對象後來後來過來喔改建我們這個大廳的美麗這個花園市場齁那個時候像需要我們都約公出來做協調"},{"start":10479.957,"end":10484.78,"text":"市長這個高級收工的這個機制一定要把我們地方修正我可以國際開發的地方會繼續修正是這個國分前你們要注意一下報告委員這都對我們的方案的全面性所以為什麼每天都要開會 要討論 要提方案這就是已經都亂了"},{"start":10504.333,"end":10508.377,"text":"所以我跟你們報告就是說這個的那個我們現在已經考慮到說解禁以後那一窩蜂大家出租一定會塞車價格會跌會影響農民所以說現在已經由許牧師在已經研擬登記出租要有序的登記出租因為評估啦一次出租出來"},{"start":10524.873,"end":10529.335,"text":"因為在這段時間可能受影響是三十萬隻那我們每天的供應量大致兩萬六千隻所以說假設好那我讓你再提高百分之二十那也不過三萬多所以說怕塞車會影響到價格所以會有次序的出租這個部分的方案整個都已經就緒了感謝蘇長 感謝你的辛苦謝謝"},{"start":10552.52,"end":10556.643,"text":"謝謝丁薛忠委員發言接下來我們請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席我們有請海洋委員會管碧玲主委我特別介紹一下請看我們內政部的馬政事主委有補充 請起立議員好主委 次長好我想這個我們今年5月"},{"start":10581.892,"end":10608.179,"text":"我們在屏東舉辦了這個我們世界動物衛生組織宣布台灣是亞洲唯一這個非疫區國家的一個榮耀但是很遺憾這個最近因為台中發生這個非洲豬瘟的事件那造成我們這個不只是動物防疫的問題我想從這個生產端我們這個屏東也是養豬的大縣那除了這個生產端這個受到很大的衝擊之外連我們這個消費端"},{"start":10610.799,"end":10637.925,"text":"主委有沒有吃過屏東的腕輪豬腳跟屏東的肉圓有 我也有吃這不夠的話 未來沒地方人吃 也沒肉圓人吃所以現在轉來就圍堵我告訴你 今天的危機都有它的圍堵我們希望能持續下去我們應該是跨部會來整個合作做一個有效的防堵我想這個是對於整個產業也好整個我們民生物價也好很重要的一個層面"},{"start":10639.838,"end":10650.026,"text":"但是我想這個我們目前今天的主題是這個編譯檢查期跟防疫嘛因為我最近也聽到坊間很多朋友在講"},{"start":10651.329,"end":10679.86,"text":"這個我們小山通大家去那裡搜尋會帶了很多肉製品進來這是一個很嚴重的一個破口問題所以有查有查清訊息我們是有一個連檢然後關務署關務署會協同我們甚至於我們有專門訓練來評那個肉紋肉品的遵守權我們也都有配合海關關務署這邊所組成的連檢我們都有在連檢"},{"start":10681.531,"end":10689.934,"text":"到截至目前為止今年查獲幾件有違規的事項這個我們請關務署回答好嗎這可能是統計在關務署那裡我們主要是人員跟船舶的安全檢查那行李主要在關務署我們請署長答覆一下"},{"start":10706.348,"end":10723.938,"text":"有關於旅客的部分今年為止是查到850件那小山通的部分我們可能還要再另外再統計一下旅客的部分這個是一個很嚴謹的國安問題我們大概底下的所謂的一個港口也好這個所謂的一個我們這個機場也好"},{"start":10725.895,"end":10753.618,"text":"那麼好的一個防堵一個措施但是不能讓小山通變成一個我們沒有注意到的一個破口的一個問題我想這個因為現在這個小山通去的人也蠻多的然後這個東西如果沒有謹慎處理的時候我想這個是我們必須要面對的好 謝謝委員提醒那我們未來是不是有建立一個邊境防檢疫的一個資訊聯防系統這部分可以做這個東西聯防系統"},{"start":10756.656,"end":10774.303,"text":"資訊聯防當然我們跟我們的相關友軍都會有情職的一個交換如果第一時間接到我們相關的通報的時候我們怎麼樣去處理是通報到相關單位去做處理嗎還是怎樣來防範看這個貨品是出現在哪裡我們就會及時去那個通關點去做處理"},{"start":10775.58,"end":10802.374,"text":"我想分工很重要但是不能因為分工分得太細大家互踢皮球通報的時間差造成我們的防疫的破口這部分要怎麼去防範這樣的一個防線延遲的一個問題防線延遲的問題跟委員報告只要有情緒的話我們都會及時處理對那就是我想這部分我們跟友軍一定都會密切合作的不會成為這個防疫的破口"},{"start":10803.653,"end":10831.248,"text":"我們今天在這邊講這個就是一個很嚴肅的問題我想幫忙注意趕快我們一樣共同這個從不一樣的面向陸海空各方面都要去防堵這樣一個破口出現那我想另外一個問題就是最近三年快遞違規輸入動物的產品的部分有高達1000多件其中豬肉製品就有200多件那還有一些在這個數位海關的防疫上面也出現技術性的一個漏洞那針對這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":10831.735,"end":10838.14,"text":"我想我們署長有沒有什麼一個方便的一個措施跟委員報告就1級位的部分我們這幾年來一直在強化這個冒名註冊跟冒名報關那這三年來已經停權的四萬五千多筆可能是疑似這些可能會被冒名都會報關的那這部分我們一直在強化實名認證的這個身份驗證像我們最近也是實施這個雙卡認證"},{"start":10861.375,"end":10871.066,"text":"所以我一直在強化身份驗證的一個一個一個措施會封鎖他們的相關的一些資訊嗎封鎖他們相關資訊我們會停權如果他帳號是高風險的高違規的我們會停權會給他停權未來是不是考慮建置所謂的簡易風險分級的AI篩檢系統"},{"start":10881.376,"end":10907.158,"text":"有沒有辦法做一個精進的一個做法簡易的AI風險系統報告委員可不可以再跟你確認一下指的是哪一種針對一些特定的有問題的部分能不能做一個比較精密的一個鎖定是跟委員報告目前我們都是靠海關是靠風險管理我們自己有一道專家風險管理的一個系統那我們當然會朝AI的方向繼續努力"},{"start":10908.523,"end":10930.336,"text":"謝謝我想這個跨部會整合大家一起來努力啦齁我們也期待這個趕快把這個事情能夠平息讓我們的產業也好讓我們的消費者都能夠過得一個更好的一個生活了大家要吃到滴肉吃到空肉飯吃到肉丸吃到豬腳啦齁這才是幸福的生活啦好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝徐副國務委員接下來我們請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":10945.134,"end":10955.766,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請公務署署長還有我們的房間署杜署長請公務署房間署委員好"},{"start":10958.82,"end":10975.667,"text":"好 署長因為過去我在這個裁委會所以也非常關心我們海關同仁包括我們的人力啊 設備等等那麼這一陣子因為這個非洲豬瘟疫情的狀況所以我相信同仁們一定都非常的辛苦也都對於這個"},{"start":10977.088,"end":10988.953,"text":"海關的這個作業不敢輕忽但是以本席現在所拿到的這樣的一個數字當中我們一起來看一下這是今天10月29號最新的那當然這個是來自於我們房檢署的資訊我們在抽驗的9549件樣品當中"},{"start":10996.836,"end":11003.797,"text":"陽性的有998件85%也就是849件來自中國112件來自越南36件來自泰國1件來自馬來西亞從2018年8月到現在陽性檢疫出來的有85%來自中國我想這個部分不容置疑因為數字會說話那麼在這個數字旁邊我們看到的就是來自於中國的急運的這個包裹我覺得"},{"start":11026.961,"end":11032.668,"text":"現在當然有人在追理由但是我們要預防勝於治療就是說接下來我們到底要怎麼來防範剛剛前面的委員都有提到就是急運的包裹這樣子一批一批進來喔他確實很容易有漏洞本席過去在財委會的時候也參觀過台北關也看過"},{"start":11047.932,"end":11051.036,"text":"在海運的部分這種急運下貨櫃的狀況我說實話我必須講海關同仁是非常辛苦的一秒鐘要看這種急運的大包裹這困難度是非常高的那麼當中國的這些"},{"start":11064.392,"end":11071.696,"text":"如果裡面夾帶著豬肉製品在裡面的時候真的可以一秒鐘火眼金星看過去嗎因為我們現在是這樣喔不能超過10單每一單不能超過20公斤可是這種豬肉製品如果夾在裡面10單20公斤我問 真的 署長海關人員要花多少時間去看清楚啊以現在的X光掃描機火眼金星看得到嗎"},{"start":11093.524,"end":11112.258,"text":"首先非常感謝委員對海關一向的一個支持跟這個指導的確快遞貨物的量非常多尤其八成都是來自中國大陸那這個一天大概有七八萬份的這個報單要通關那我們現在是靠S光跟企圖權"},{"start":11113.871,"end":11138.72,"text":"抱歉應該是簡易拳來繡紋那X光的部分我們靠的就是X光我們現在是雙色圓的X光那即使看的還算蠻清楚的那我們有豁明同步顯示系統來支援這個我們同仁的這個X光那我們會盡最大的努力啦那X光的部分我們會看顏色密度形狀這些我們都有建立圖檔過去違規的圖檔來協助同仁來增加這個判讀"},{"start":11144.246,"end":11158.384,"text":"這個查到這個命中率還會提高好所以說目前X光是可以我知道現在在為了能夠有更先進的安檢的設備在淘機其實現在也開始有建置所謂的CT的"},{"start":11161.344,"end":11175.97,"text":"這個所謂驗光機那這個部分會用在貨品上嗎現在這個看起來應該是放在機場對人員進出的部分那這個部分其實本席可以建議啦就我知道如果全面換發新的相關的更先進的掃描的設備比如說3D立體顯影等等的更好的這樣的設備的時候可能會有經費預算本席建議其實是可以從貨運"},{"start":11187.456,"end":11200.406,"text":"報關行的這個業者開始就是讓他們的器材設備上不要只有我們公家來做這個部分因為現在防疫檢疫是人人有責除了剛剛講到的落實所謂Easy web在這個所謂消費者這邊申報這邊之外包括"},{"start":11206.816,"end":11220.044,"text":"這個平台這邊相關的建制包括寄建人收建人這些都必須要落實之外實名制之外最重要的我還是建議就是如果我們這樣徹底防範非洲豬瘟的話這個所謂集運然後掃描安全通管的問題其實還是要解決如果說預算有限因為像我們在我其實本來很想問你們這一次海關的預算到時候到財委會的時候要守住不要被"},{"start":11235.413,"end":11239.075,"text":"在野黨大刀一揮又揮掉到時候狗狗的這個費用啊這個關務署相關的海關人員的費用啊加急清貼啊這個部分你們要好好守住啊因為守住也是守住我們的國安的部分守住我們的這個非洲豬瘟"},{"start":11252.68,"end":11255.922,"text":"台委會委員都非常支持海關的預算所以我要講的就是說我們的預算不足的話其實也可以從報關行或者是業者這裡來讓設備做一些改進然後財政部這裡可以給一些租稅上面的優惠"},{"start":11270.473,"end":11284.701,"text":"那也許這樣子我們可以在設備上面就是他們有更新設備然後在設備上更新的時候我們可以給一些租稅上面的優惠鼓勵他們就是一起在所謂邊境管制上面尤其是像我們講的這種所謂的中國急運寄來的這樣的設備上面能夠做一些更新這樣也可以減輕我們自己的負擔因為畢竟這個是可能要官民一起聯手才能夠守住不要讓豬瘟進來守住我們的台灣豬"},{"start":11297.952,"end":11301.515,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們會朝這方面去努力好謝謝好謝謝林楚英委員接下來何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在接下來是邱志維委員發言"},{"start":11329.075,"end":11356.402,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請這個農業部房間署杜署長請杜署長 公務署彭署長好 署長第一個問題請教你就是本來日本跟台灣是為惡的非豬瘟疫區那現在已經台灣已經有豬瘟的這個案例現在唯一的就只有日本上次我在今天我會質詢日本的經驗可以去學習"},{"start":11357.461,"end":11374.37,"text":"日本的廚餘日本有沒有廚餘是 日本有廚餘是家家戶戶都有廚餘嗎他們還是有產生廚餘廚餘的量廚餘的量沒有台灣多吧沒有你們去了解日本廚餘怎麼去產生因為我每天跟日本人生活我知道日本比較少廚餘他們廚餘不是像我們這個"},{"start":11381.96,"end":11410.951,"text":"的一般的這個方式在處理好即便有廚餘這廚餘那天在經濟委員會他提到說可以讓他變成飼料是液態的還是固態的他有先進的技術是過去我們有沒有這個技術我試著回答因為這是環境部的好就你業管的部分就日本的經驗您知不知道日本他的這個到底怎麼樣"},{"start":11411.687,"end":11436.938,"text":"把他把這個廚藝變成這個飼料是液態的還是固態的他要記住我們能不能取得是所以他們沒有邊境管制他們依然可以確保是非豬瘟果所以這是我們可以學習的然後部長說我們如果可以取得授權的話我們願意馬上去做對部長已經交代了就是委員那間執行委員會可以的話我們馬上去日本去看是看看他們到底是用什麼方式來變成飼料"},{"start":11438.769,"end":11459.95,"text":"那就完全就解決這個問題了嘛一方面可以解決廚藝的問題一方面可以避免這個豬瘟因為它已經飼料化就完全沒有病毒了嘛這個有沒有計畫馬上去日本去考察一下我們去看也可以經濟委員會去看也可以"},{"start":11461.127,"end":11475.906,"text":"報告委員我們已經有做對日本這個處於其實他們大部分是用剩食飼料化那技術面的話有液態飼料也有乾燥的飼料兩個技術都有在使用對"},{"start":11477.929,"end":11497.364,"text":"這兩個飼料不管液態或物態都能夠杜絕這個豬瘟的病毒對於有含肉移綠的原料的話人家已經行之一有年了為什麼我們為什麼不學他們的技術或者取得授權我們還用比較沒有效率的方式做邊際檢查然後要那麼多人力"},{"start":11498.687,"end":11527.677,"text":"報告委員台灣也有一場是做把這個剩餘的食品變剩食變成那個固態飼料台灣有五千多場耶只有一場做成乾燥飼料的有一場為什麼沒有辦法全面這可能涉及成本的問題我覺得這部分跟去跟日本學習如果取得授權盡快如果可行的話連評估可行的話盡快跟日本代表處"},{"start":11528.843,"end":11551.181,"text":"趕快去日本實際去看一下實際的狀況那我們還會另外再安排那個署長另外再安排是不是經濟委員會也去日本看一下到底是他們怎麼樣把廚餘處理變成私料化這個過程是怎麼樣技術是怎麼樣我們可能要盡快去看一下你們速度不能比立法院慢"},{"start":11553.111,"end":11574.097,"text":"你們住代表處有沒有農業部的同仁有你們趕快去收集資料明天我就去看也可以這個防疫如作戰另外你們在桃一桃二你們是委外你們新竹分數到底有沒有同仁在那邊"},{"start":11574.805,"end":11593.384,"text":"我報告委員您那天這個質詢以後那就交代桃園分署都要輪流輪班24小時都一定要有監督人員在那裡保健公司固然有受過訓練他專業度沒有比我們房間署的同仁還有如果有什麼狀況房間署可以馬上處理嘛"},{"start":11596.687,"end":11613.679,"text":"而且針對高風險發高風險台港澳 港澳中他是強制要檢查一定要檢查除了日本之外全部一定要檢查他如果檢查出來他有帶豬肉當場丟掉就沒事你們數據來看你們從這個107年到114年"},{"start":11623.274,"end":11629.26,"text":"總共還有2619件這2000多件是經過你們的安檢區到海關被攔檢下來嘛對不對你看還有2000多件漏網之魚幹嘛呢手檢區修正一下是手檢區的數量你的手檢區的數量那真正被查法有多少查法900多"},{"start":11647.516,"end":11663.312,"text":"基本上這樣你經過手撿區不是只是一個形式而已你要有專業的人去看到底有沒有而且要看得仔細一排十個人在那邊大部分在協助搬運行李通過速度很快我是懷疑到底有沒有在看"},{"start":11665.456,"end":11674.884,"text":"我們可以來檢討這個時期的這個流程跟作業將近2600多件2600多件他就把它丟掉就沒事嘛你說還有900多件是要裁罰的在裁罰是在彭署長那邊又被攔下第二關被攔下來對不對沒有錯嘛在我們這邊應該到那邊就不會重複裁罰"},{"start":11689.005,"end":11714.045,"text":"對嘛你們在前第一線沒有採訪嘛不是我跟委員報告就是這個我們檢查的是旅客帶的手撿的隨身攜帶S光機是針對我們的行李對我知道所以兩個是不一樣的那手撿的部分呢手撿就是剛剛講的2600多件對2600多件之中對嘛那都不會採訪嘛那你東西拿掉就好採訪丟掉不是怎麼會採訪這個"},{"start":11716.227,"end":11736.554,"text":"你那個良福保全再做安全的丟掉丟掉就不用裁罰了嗎不用裁罰那你裁罰900多千是怎麼裁罰應該是那個是托運行李還是手提行李S光機確診是S光機是托運行李嘛對不對是是是所以900多千是托運行李是好在第一關你們這個委託的這個保險公司做的這個手提行李的檢查"},{"start":11737.134,"end":11753.097,"text":"你們撿出200多件丟掉就沒事嘛是丟掉他不就沒有裁罰的問題是是是所以目前這樣子完全沒有裁罰然後呢這個托運行李你們被罰了這個700多件托運行李嘛"},{"start":11756.067,"end":11761.916,"text":"被罰是全部是婚姻行李各位報告因為首提行李的話是在桃園機場是經過房間署100%手檢確認他沒有帶違規產品才會讓他通過"},{"start":11770.168,"end":11789.725,"text":"那接下來海關這邊S光機還會再檢查那個就是拖運的行李的部分所以被罰的全部拖運行李嘛被罰的部分有兩種樣態一種是動物產品一種是植物產品是嘛反正所有被裁罰的都是拖運行李嘛所提行李在你們第一關他看到不管有沒有看到啦他看到只要過了就沒事了嘛對不對"},{"start":11790.626,"end":11818.757,"text":"不管有沒有看到因為我們托運行李我們首提行李檢查是針對高風險的那個非洲諸多國家那有些國家像日本像歐美但我都知道我說你們檢查第一個要專業第一個要確實的那麼多的每天大概這個六七萬人入境六七萬人入境他的首提行李他可能在機場買一個豬肉產品他就放著那你如果沒有檢查出來那就是你們第一線防潛局的問題"},{"start":11819.597,"end":11835.674,"text":"對不對現在採訪都是經過S光機透過這個托運行李看到才採訪對不對跑不掉因為他托運行李嘛那手力行李第一個你們安檢的品質怎麼樣專業怎麼樣把關很重要每天六七萬人入境你如果檢查確實的話好"},{"start":11840.526,"end":11857.439,"text":"他就把他拿掉對不對對就不會是被裁罰了對然後還有第二道關卡就是到了那個我們的留那個什麼檢疫犬的那個地方檢疫犬是第二道有幾隻檢疫犬我目前全國有56隻56隻56隻這個你如果要檢查就要很確實是不能抽檢是這個防疫的關卡很重要是所以我最後"},{"start":11868.686,"end":11897.129,"text":"我建議就是第一線路徑第一關所有的這個手裡行李案件的部分一定要專業而且要確實不能留意形式另外你說有這個犬隻要在第二波第二關這個也要確實如果被犬隻查到怎麼辦要不要罰 一定罰那個這個只要有肉製產品就當場就開立20萬那假設他不繳就回去了如果犬隻查到"},{"start":11897.864,"end":11924.711,"text":"代表說你那一關那一關跳過了那一關沒有你們第一關沒有查出來是是我們也在追這種要吻合啦要相相所以啊這個第一關很重要啊署長新竹分署一定要再加油桃園那是桃園分署桃園分署還是新竹分署已經改成叫桃園分署桃園分署謝謝好謝謝宣誓會委員"},{"start":11928.47,"end":11930.231,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊發言邀請關務署彭署長委員好"},{"start":11950.031,"end":11970.967,"text":"據媒體報導10月25號報導非洲豬瘟疑似台灣在現中當然目前為止我們規定從國外攜帶或者是遊購是以6公斤以下自用食品回台它是免申報的所以你關瑞署在24號表示你會請食藥署研議相關的規定"},{"start":11974.85,"end":12001.846,"text":"但是食藥署在隔天馬上回覆聲明他發表聲明說認為內容物才是防疫的重點那這個爭議不管是從哪裡來尤其這個大陸食品的螺蛳粉這個什麼魔乳爽這些的產品我們看到在在這個台灣隨處都可以看得見那請教關護署你當時希望食藥署"},{"start":12003.086,"end":12022.313,"text":"你們要他改的是什麼是公斤數還是內容物因為他直接給你隔天就跟你說他是認為是內容物才是重點所以邊境的管理到目前為止石耀署跟你所提出的好像是各自一詞來請說明報告委員"},{"start":12026.92,"end":12030.223,"text":"這是因為有關於媒體一個報導就是說在捷運上看到旅客兩大箱的這個所謂的這個螺絲粉他認為說這應該是走私進來的所以國境大門動開都沒有在把關那我們是發個新聞稿澄清說一個人"},{"start":12044.435,"end":12064.693,"text":"自用可以帶6公斤的食品這是食藥署的規定這是目前的規定大家都知道只是你要食藥署他們你希望他們去調整是要調整什麼公斤數當然食藥署講的沒錯那現在食藥署已經給你打臉說公斤數不重要是內容物才重要那你們兩個怎麼做呢"},{"start":12066.579,"end":12073.584,"text":"內容物當然海關一定會看每一個貨物到底有沒有含豬肉所以如果說食藥署現在回復的25號回復就是說他不贊成把公斤數調降是不是如此他回復是要看內容物內容物是重點但公斤數"},{"start":12084.43,"end":12111.919,"text":"是不是有調降的空間他們會再演繹他們會再演繹那你認為什麼時候可以告訴我們你希望食藥署所做的那麼最後你們兩方所達成的共識是什麼告訴社會大眾我想目前食藥署應該有在救公斤數是不是要調降所以到目前為止我們這個公務所還是希望6公斤可以做調降你的方向是如此"},{"start":12112.643,"end":12134.25,"text":"以關務署的立場啦因為同仁檢驗的貨物非常的多啊我也知道琳瑯滿目槍毒一些什麼加熱菸啦所以你還是認為6公斤不管郵購或者是國外攜帶6公斤可以調降6公斤一個人6公斤的話比如說我們旅客不是你的方向是不是如此是"},{"start":12136.231,"end":12151.699,"text":"所以本席就不希望說在現階段大家應該要團結一致好好的防疫好好的建立那因為我們看到關護署跟食藥署是各執各執一詞那到底怎麼回事我們還是要理清楚那我們也希望你們兩方好好趕快去討論到底是怎麼樣要告訴社會大眾才不會讓民眾有更多一個問號跟質疑"},{"start":12160.403,"end":12167.568,"text":"謝謝委員知道我們跟食藥署都有保持密切聯繫你要趕快去檢討看到底是怎麼回事不要讓民眾有問號那現在我們上一次在經濟委員會裡頭你也提出你們增加了S光機那我們也提出你的檢疫犬到底夠不夠檢疫犬目前運用檢疫犬你大概有56隻那到底第一個數量夠不夠第二個他們的經濟方案"},{"start":12188.562,"end":12208.101,"text":"能不能應對這一些請做說明這個S光機的部分我們海關有118台的這個小型的S光機那我們都有進行這個太舊換新所以我們都會朝這個智慧科技查緝的方向去努力那至於檢疫權的部分是屬於防檢署的權責來請說明"},{"start":12211.104,"end":12226.014,"text":"保安委員我們現在全國有56隻的監獄犬那其中在桃園分屬是佈置了29隻那現在夠不夠如果當我們發生這樣的事情大家一律各個港口以及這個大家都希望量能夠夠"},{"start":12227.755,"end":12245.354,"text":"其實我們都有在逐年調整但他會碰到一個問題就是訓練檢疫權不是那麼容易的事情問題就在這裡在早先的時候我們可能從美方跟他合作跟紐西蘭合作紐西蘭後來他們說我們也要自己從COVID-19以後他就說不行我們就加"},{"start":12246.875,"end":12264.531,"text":"不跟你合作了我也不賣你了當然我們知道有還是有經濟空間我們支持所以你們必須各種管道要怎麼去調整我們希望就是大家團結一致來做報告委員我跟關務署我們在去年有一個合作也就是"},{"start":12266.584,"end":12278.416,"text":"沒關係你再順便資料給本席我們希望好好的能夠來防堵那量能要怎麼做你想順便資料給本席 好不好好接下來本席要請教警政署署長有來嗎"},{"start":12285.688,"end":12314.567,"text":"這個議題本來上次因為時間關係沒有問到但我很關心這個議題因為在臉書社群裡頭有說你警戒內部是有嚴重的數據造假文化所以有不少的員警來指控為了配合長官衝刺身簽的績效你會把A1類的死亡車禍先登錄在刑案後續再去做更改"},{"start":12315.347,"end":12337.68,"text":"要美化這個交通死亡的數據有沒有這個事他們還特別指出高雄桃園都有那這個會產生什麼問題呢如果屬實這很嚴重的問題第一個受害家屬的家屬受害者的家屬他本來可以有這個意外險的這個200萬"},{"start":12339.361,"end":12357.377,"text":"但是他如果不是在A1族的他就沒有辦法領這他的損失非常的大第二個如果真正這個路口他是嚴重的而因為數字失真導致沒有辦法去改善那個路口那這個嚴重性更嚴重請教署長"},{"start":12361.007,"end":12381.408,"text":"包委員這個A1的這個部分是不會造假我們現在都是異化在做管理所以絕對不會有這種事情發生我們都異化那你這個所謂的數據這個部分如果是透過人工的各方面但是現在全部都是異化在做一個處理所以也沒有這一些的這個這個應該是不實的啦"},{"start":12383.47,"end":12385.432,"text":"那如果不是 你們應該要澄清啊網路啊 每天一直傳啊你們應該要去澄清啊因為連受害的家屬 你到現在才知道經濟是有我們在加油的 AI要加油啊"},{"start":12399.162,"end":12402.083,"text":"這關來澄清 我們也澄清這個絕對不會去造假因為你連你連受害的家屬他的影響那麼大他如果不是在A1組的這個報案的時候他連交通事故這個強制汽車責任險的這個第六條的規定了他就沒辦法他這是兩百萬"},{"start":12422.31,"end":12435.039,"text":"對不對所以影響本席剛才講的有兩項我們會來澄清了你要澄清嘛你一定要趕快澄清因為我們不希望行政部門有被挑戰這個信任誠信的危機對不對你立即澄清嘛所以沒這回事因為有責我們檢討之"},{"start":12441.623,"end":12457.556,"text":"無責你必須要去澄清是鼓勵我們的員警嘛對不對你贊同嗎贊同因為我們不希望讓民眾來做這個一樣又是問號的不好趕快去澄清趕快去澄清那要好你請回OK謝謝"},{"start":12461.77,"end":12482.512,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來請黃建豪委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員不在林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在現在請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":12490.967,"end":12496.968,"text":"好謝謝主席啊是不是請警政署張署長張署長請委員好署長我們馬祖警察局啊連山縣警察局齁那個官有啦兵沒有有啦都補給了啦補了多少人6個不夠啦已經滿了啊沒有滿沒有滿要8個才夠"},{"start":12517.1,"end":12521.824,"text":"因為我們預算原額本來就已經很少了預算原額比編制原額少為了省一點錢因為預算是比編制少一點點"},{"start":12537.202,"end":12556.992,"text":"那你不能說只有巡關以上的那底下沒有兵我們這次就是馬祖的部分因為他的人數少就基層的這個部分如果少一個可能在量度不足所以這是大概優勢補最多的啦好啦謝謝組長不管怎麼樣這個馬祖警察局"},{"start":12558.038,"end":12572.023,"text":"在署的領導之下跟我們縣政府還有地方人都配合的非常好謝謝委員署長請回是不是請召委請移民署移民署林署長請移民署林署長署長早上個禮拜啊這個發生一件大陸漁船在不是海峽中間喔在他們的領海公海在他們領海"},{"start":12587.799,"end":12614.191,"text":"對我們海欄二號裡面12隻星的海欄弄斷兩隻星後來被海巡把他帶回來海巡帶回來以後大概就把他留置了並沒有拘留啊幹什麼等等都沒有那其中斷了兩星那現在中華電信我跟他們協商因為大陸那邊跟我們聯絡"},{"start":12615.836,"end":12642.783,"text":"大陸跟我們聯絡,那現在已經和解了那他賠了25萬那這個案子已經到我們連江地檢署當然地檢署那邊依法行政嘛,他們會去處理那已經調解完畢了那這個問題是不大了現在這個人,人在馬祖也沒有拘留,也沒有留置,也沒有收押那這個人怎麼回去是個問題"},{"start":12644.29,"end":12673.266,"text":"我曾經也打電話給我們怡俊 怡俊組長 怡俊組長也有去協調那這個人現在兩種方式嘛一個是 署裡面很像講 預案要有大通證謝謝怡俊組長 多謝你協助 禮拜六禮拜六放假我還找他 他一直很熱心 在努力這個事情一個大通證 大通證他說要見到人 大陸那邊講要見到人頭才能有大通證"},{"start":12674.278,"end":12685.527,"text":"因為我們現在海基跟陸委會跟對面已經不通了已讀不回了已經對幹了 已經火車對撞了沒有協調的人了是不是那現在一個大統政的方式一個是時間暫停一下時間暫停"},{"start":12704.192,"end":12733.764,"text":"好 一個人用大通證如果大通證寄過來我們讓他回去但他大通證本來只有一種現在為了這個人他有兩種就是一次性的臨時大通證那今天會從黃旗送到我們議長的手上那有了這個大通證我們可以讓他就移民署這邊讓他出境移民署讓他出境如果沒有大通證的話呢那就是你們的預案很像是移民署的預案"},{"start":12734.758,"end":12763.978,"text":"也就是從他們派個漁船過來我們也雇用了漁船在海峽中線把人叫出去署長你們有沒有研究妥適方案現在這個可能沒辦法做這樣子的一個處理沒辦法做這樣子的一個處理他沒有事啊 沒有事啊 目前啊人怎麼回去"},{"start":12764.895,"end":12791.834,"text":"你海巡把他帶回來的人怎麼給他弄回去你不能被人家求啊我每天要提供他便當這個案子因為這個他是應該是因為在我們海巡把他帶進來的啦應該是海巡帶進來的啦所以他並不是標準的所謂的偷渡啦他是等於是非法"},{"start":12793.366,"end":12801.648,"text":"斷纜等於是非法他應該是涉及到國安的問題啦合解的現在沒有這個問題啦沒有斷纜的問題啦人合解啦案子已經合解啦跟委員報告那原來我們移送給地檢署以後地檢署檢察官裁定這個人是由移民署來收容收容收容多久啊他斷纜的原因已經消失了嘛因為他合解啦"},{"start":12823.547,"end":12844.536,"text":"那賠獎金也賠啦25萬也收啦已經沒事啦那你們要把他養到嗎移民署總有預案嘛 總有個方案啊你移民署總要有個對策嘛對不對其實這個部分齁 這個部分我們要把他驅逐出境但是問題是他沒有大通證大陸那邊不會收那他如果有大通證你們要不要放他走會啊"},{"start":12849.861,"end":12877.55,"text":"因為他本來就要虛擬出去那臨時的大通證你們可以接受嗎一次一次性的大通證他本來營運本要送來啊我說不行現在大通證是他回大陸的時候有大陸那邊在看的所以大陸那邊如果說他有發正常應該是會收可以嗎"},{"start":12878.257,"end":12905.362,"text":"如果是他發的他應該就會收我們對海關會放行嗎 我們的移民組會放行嗎我們會發臨時出境許可讓他一次性的 讓他回去也可以吧 好那這樣就OK了啦那不然的話也要按照前例嘛 要漁船送回去另外署長喔馬祖現在的人球有多少個你知道嗎大陸的人球有30幾個你們沒關係喔 那個海巡要養到 要養到"},{"start":12907.622,"end":12914.828,"text":"他們留置啊 養照 還蓋個房子給他們住勒還提供他們起居作息 海巡很多錢喔海安委會很多錢嗎 30幾個海巡署出來有沒有來"},{"start":12921.608,"end":12945.691,"text":"沒有啊我把名單開給你三十幾個不是一個兩個三個我們沒有留置三十幾個人報紙有一個有一個偷渡犯他八月底的時候已經執行期滿但是呢目前中國也不收所以還收容在移民署三十幾個我名單開給你我們沒有我們沒有留置三十幾個人好那你們不要提供便當給他喔把它二十喔"},{"start":12947.571,"end":12956.796,"text":"我們沒有留置三十幾個人你問一下海巡隊問一下海巡隊好不好我們會後來跟委員我們來跟委員了解不必查證我們絕對沒有留置但是我們會來跟委員請教所有這個數字主委我正好要找你了海巡蓋房子"},{"start":12971.243,"end":12978.108,"text":"我們讓他蓋了我當縣長的時候就把核地讓他蓋了把土地蓋給你們了也都給你們了你們蓋的進度怎麼樣現在"},{"start":12984.188,"end":13011.756,"text":"我們有委員講的是海巡隊我們海巡隊目前都是一進度大概是不是說明一下蓋到一樓目前蓋到一樓是我們請同仁組長說明一下好嗎是我有去看過好 組長你說明一下馬祖海巡隊的工程目前是進度大概百分之二十多左右"},{"start":13012.555,"end":13041.782,"text":"進入六月超前 那目前蓋到一樓那一定是明年底會能夠整個完工當初我跟你們海巡講你們海巡要蓋房子你不是要蓋個另外一個房子讓海巡弟兄住進去嗎你去拿個貨櫃租了幾十個幾百個貨櫃把它堆疊起來 現在漏水啦我跟你們講暫時臨時性的清澈蓋了以後你們將來這個房子蓋好剩下的房子給縣政府用嘛"},{"start":13042.776,"end":13055.686,"text":"你要浪費那個錢幹什麼我搞不懂你們後勤人員在幹什麼我也跟你們建議了 你們也不聽不過這已經算了啦 沒關係啦目已成舟啦有需要蓋個房子嘛簡單的房子讓他住嘛用那個貨櫃屋 拿了幾十個 一百個把它疊起來 裡面跟鬼一樣就是貨櫃啊 還不是"},{"start":13072.568,"end":13080.472,"text":"他不是一個貨櫃一個貨櫃疊起來不是我有去看那個臨時聽射你去馬祖沒去參觀過聽射嗎我去看臨時聽射也去看然後開工典禮我也去一個接一個"},{"start":13086.929,"end":13113.892,"text":"就是貨櫃啊OK 來委員我們一定來把他們的居住環境做很好的改善好不好但是要蓋一棟房子來做臨時聽測這個部分可能還涉及土地等等各方面的問題跟土地什麼關係土地是我們提供給你的土地是縣政府提供給你沒有土地沒關係啊只是你們因為說錢要比較多一點就如此而已嘛"},{"start":13115.838,"end":13122.766,"text":"凡事還是靠需求,未來海巡,未來海巡隊的建築,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後土地也給你啦我也親自陪著縣長去看過了你們已經三年了,連動都不動我們把土地收回來"},{"start":13136.702,"end":13153.705,"text":"委員我們一直有在走程序請你們放心因為他必須要走三階段程序要走三四年嗎我早知道等你們程序走完才答應你們維持這個三階段我們一直沒辦法突破這一點你們跟縣長說明一下好不好可是他沒辦法被當作國防設施你說走什麼程序 三階段對 三階段審議現在走到哪一階段"},{"start":13163.633,"end":13170.704,"text":"還在一階段還是二階段第二階段還是二階段我回去找縣政府發個函給你們我們跟你終止"},{"start":13174.286,"end":13195.501,"text":"我們跟你統治你慢慢去三階段啦這個委員是氣話我了解但是三階段的問題我們一直非常非常希望能夠突破但是畢竟我們不是國防部當初救生大隊在那邊我花了很多苦水把救生大隊把它弄走"},{"start":13196.502,"end":13222.854,"text":"然後把土地給你們不過委員我們已經走到第二階段也算是一個突破我跟你講你跟上面報告再給你兩個月時間不行的話我們終止我跟你講這個土地不給你們我知道委員關心的程度讓委員說了這樣的氣話但是我們事實上走三階段是一直在努力你們話講 主委你話講再多沒有用我跟你講你給我擋物的放在閒置了三四年了我們憲政的發展讓你這樣子玩法不可能的"},{"start":13224.093,"end":13243.159,"text":"我們現在不可能讓你這樣玩啦我們也很關心它中間的設計所以在這個設計的過程當中我們也非常非常聽取地方的意見然後做了很多很多的修正委員也知道那些過程所以委員我們不是閒置喔我們不知道這個過程喔 署長你會後來跟我報告一下好不好哪有這樣閒置在這個地方呢好 另外還有一個問題 主委"},{"start":13256.123,"end":13270.659,"text":"前幾天發現一條豬死豬啊在我們北竿的秦碧海岸發現這條豬發現的是紅斑點是陽性反應是豬瘟你們怎麼處理"},{"start":13271.761,"end":13287.248,"text":"我們按照SOP非常謹慎的處理完畢最後有焚毀跟掩埋焚毀?有焚毀跟掩埋你搞錯了吧?是掩埋欸焚毀以後才掩埋我們不可能不焚毀他去哪裡焚毀啊?"},{"start":13288.408,"end":13295.893,"text":"在北竿秦碧哪個焚化廠來焚毀跟委員報告我們根據防監所的SOP我們有焚毀跟掩埋事後我們會把整個影片給委員看好不好請問有沒有放心我們不會不焚毀而掩埋最後一個問題 防疫有沒有來"},{"start":13318.564,"end":13347.468,"text":"你們中正機場最讓人詬病的是國人進來回家歸心事件你們搞了一套人馬在那邊是不是排隊排好久好久我跟你講現在正好朱恩出來了這個到底朱恩怎麼出來了他是在台中發現的不是桃園你出來的話海關這邊又有一套防疫人員在那邊苟文來文去的裡面又搞一套全世界哪個國家這樣子搞"},{"start":13348.274,"end":13375.138,"text":"然後這個老闆也來找我 哎呀你如果這個不給我們做的話我們這些人要失業了我也從善如流啊 我也不砍你們預算啊不砍你們預算但你服務態度要好 速度要快嘛對不對 你那個檢查呢翻箱倒櫃不是翻箱倒櫃 皮包打開 拉鍊打開你一個一個在那邊弄 共產黨也沒這樣搞啊全世界哪個國家 你舉例說明給我聽聽看"},{"start":13376.488,"end":13397.939,"text":"你是署長嗎是 委員好 這個表示真的大家都很嚴格在做執行那這個確實也是它的必要性因為畢竟非洲豬瘟它可以經由我們人為攜帶或我們的腳底等等這些病人會有交叉的感染那至於說我們的服務態度或者是速度方面我想我們都來個不是你這個兩套是哪一國有"},{"start":13400.478,"end":13419.127,"text":"日本有嗎 馬來西亞有嗎 香港有嗎全世界已經39個國家都有非洲豬瘟有人這樣搞兩套的防疫嗎我們通報現在台灣是變第40個那在亞洲地區不是我問你署長我們有哪一個國家搞兩套的這樣防疫像我們中正機場這樣即便台灣這麼嚴格我跟委員報告從我們"},{"start":13424.187,"end":13429.551,"text":"手提行李的氣質桶裡面去檢測那你松山跟高雄呢松山跟高雄要不要搞都搞幾個沒關係連馬祖也來搞金門也來搞問題很大啦"},{"start":13436.99,"end":13465.672,"text":"報告委員那松山跟這個台中的部分是因為腹地的關係但是因為他全部都要經過X光的做處理跟檢疫權的處理但是因為他人流比較多風險比較高所以這個部分其實也是幫我們旅客啦為什麼因為你在這個的首體安檢過假設你被檢出你不用罰可是你到X光機你被檢出那麼他就會裁罰裁罰一次就20萬"},{"start":13467.353,"end":13490.949,"text":"這是你講的話啦 沒關係啦你不要在松山機場出事情不要在高雄出事情你不要在這個金門馬祖出事情金門馬祖出事情啊你也搞一套啊 你也搞一套來啊你叫哪一家公司那個也來啊我懷疑這個朱溫哪裡來是海邊來的啦 我跟你講啦所以今天海關署長關鍵署長也在這邊嘛其實我跟你講 他要從海邊來啊"},{"start":13495.657,"end":13516.321,"text":"海邊漁船走失的多少啊多少豬肉多少牛肉啊你進往這邊金門馬祖那邊去查幹什麼金門發生豬瘟了嗎金門發生口蹄馬祖豬肉也要管制金門跟馬祖差很遠欸差很遠很遠金門跟馬祖沒有互通你知道嗎金門人到馬祖要從松山機場轉機再過來一點關聯都沒有啊"},{"start":13523.925,"end":13553.227,"text":"所以你們的觀念要弄清楚好不好你在防疫署我覺得有狀況這次非洲豬瘟我想問題我直接的判斷應該從海邊出現尤其武吉港那邊是從海邊出現任何的可疑的我們都會追查國人同胞會把牛肉乾豬肉乾帶進來我看機率不高啦你們要搞兩套人馬我看你們什麼時候沒完沒了的嗎"},{"start":13554.568,"end":13580.184,"text":"這個單位沒完沒了嗎一直這樣搞下去搞兩套嗎國人在罵死了你知道嗎哪一個國人回國了嗎被你們這樣拿去搞這個報告委員請體諒一下確實基於防疫的立場我不是體諒你啊大家都要體諒你還是要加強提高整個的一個防疫的措施所以這個真的是有必要畢竟是我們背後的產生這麼大那你松山機長也來啊"},{"start":13580.973,"end":13588.478,"text":"小港機場也來啊 為什麼不來也都有在做評估 都是國際嘛但是因為是腹地的關係你為什麼馬祖不搞一套 你搞一套給我那問題也很大 也要搞兩套的防疫嘛是不是 你們錢很多嗎"},{"start":13597.862,"end":13615.089,"text":"你們去想一想好不好你們自己回國的時候你是走哪個通道啊你走綠色通道嗎你也去排隊假設我們從日本來的話那麼我們就不會走我們走綠線就不會走那裡但是其他39個國家進來的就一定要走首檢區"},{"start":13616.87,"end":13646.236,"text":"香港 澳門 日本 馬來西亞 泰國有搞兩套嗎 還有我跟委員報告還有搞兩套嗎 也沒看到豬瘟出現啊從我們氣質區的採樣送檢那個陽性比例達到10%所以這個是我們不得不謹慎對待之啦我跟你講啦 你海邊都注意一下啦海邊啦 我們跟海巡的協助海巡啦 海關啦 你對海邊 海岸啦你多注意一下啦莫名其妙這個死豬都不知道從哪裡跑出來"},{"start":13646.857,"end":13673.728,"text":"我們馬祖都跑出來啊是不是難道是中山機場入境呢還是中山機場入境呢然後跑到馬祖去傳染給豬嗎怎麼可能在馬祖的這個驗出是陽性以後我們就整個都公告禁止到11月1號不行他的豬肉跟所有的加工品都不能到台灣跟所有的離島還有馬祖的雞蛋不能過來我們土生的雞蛋要檢查"},{"start":13674.925,"end":13699.682,"text":"那你台灣的雞蛋到馬祖區要被檢查 也要檢查喔也要貼我們馬祖養的羊沒有進雞蛋進什麼雞蛋我們父母親在馬祖辛辛苦苦養一些土雞女兒在台灣做月子 土雞帶到台灣去要經過你們防疫人員檢疫我請問這什麼道理啊我們是赤藤公民嗎 還是什麼"},{"start":13701.638,"end":13718.465,"text":"馬祖是不是中華民國的豬餵我現在跟你講雞的啦雞跟鴨跟羊啦我們羊肉帶來我們有養羊啊帶來你們也要說要檢疫啊要防疫啊以前要農會開證明欸農會怎麼開沒有道理嘛 是不是"},{"start":13722.284,"end":13751.614,"text":"我們的雞拿到台灣來可是報告委員畢竟這個離島包括馬祖來講距離大陸太近了所以那邊的風險相對高所以我們要特別的注意因為從我們的這個資料顯示上來講其實有很多的風險都是來自於中國大陸所以我們更要針對這個邊境尤其是在離島的靠近我在馬祖生活的七十幾年我吃了以後"},{"start":13752.657,"end":13781.599,"text":"也沒病也沒幹什麼的很像你們這些檢疫人員看到你們就生病了我吃的都沒病啊你是看了一眼就生病了很奇怪有那麼緊張嗎防疫是要做我覺得同意但是你們嚴格到我們自己國人養的雞跟雞生的蛋跟我們國人養的羊也要經過你們防疫檢查才能夠進到台灣來"},{"start":13783.254,"end":13792.45,"text":"我們上飛機要檢查我從來沒有為難過你們召委你請坐沒關係你不要急 好吧因為時間的關係 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台灣舉辦重啟核三公投票或434萬人投下同意票總統賴清德也隨即表示 將落實核安會依法定"},{"start":1459.915,"end":1477.067,"text":"定定安全审查程序办法与台电依该办法自主安全检查并会在和安无虞 合肺有解社会共识的三大原则之下积极面对核能议题"},{"start":1478.308,"end":1502.361,"text":"前總統蔡英文所創辦的想想論壇亦於近日拋出專文強調能源政策是選擇題而非是非題能源政策應該放眼安全穩定與永續三者之間的平衡希望藉由今天公聽會的舉辦促進社會來了解"},{"start":1503.322,"end":1509.234,"text":"國家對於能源政策的策略還有佈局並驅動新能源發展的戰略"},{"start":1511.082,"end":1534.662,"text":"國際上 國盟已於2022年正式將核能列入永續投資分類日本亦重啟多座核電機組推動新一代的核能技術同時計畫研議核電廠使用年限更凸顯核能於減碳跟能源安全當中再度被定位為關鍵的選項"},{"start":1538.117,"end":1557.623,"text":"然而 臺灣能源結構高度依賴進口仍面臨核安疑慮 核廢料處理及社會信任等挑戰因此 未來政策應在確保核安與法治健全的前提之下省慎來評估保留部分可運轉"},{"start":1558.843,"end":1570.508,"text":"核能設施並強化核能技術與安全管理人才的培育深化國際合作與交流精進此次法規與監管制度"},{"start":1572.048,"end":1597.977,"text":"故召開此次公聽會聽取各界寶貴意見及互相交流討論期望透過理性的討論與專業的研議凝聚社會共識共同建構兼顧安全永續與韌性的台灣能源治理方向以作為日後核子反應器設施管制法相關條文修法之參考"},{"start":1599.639,"end":1621.946,"text":"那今天的討論提綱有四大議題第一個是在核安會依法訂定安全審查程序辦法與台電依該辦法自主安全檢查的兩必須下如何透過公開且透明的方式公布檢查進度與結果"},{"start":1623.647,"end":1652.081,"text":"建立公眾對核電安全的信心並增進核電使用的正確認知第二有鑒於我國核能安全法制的相關法律規範外界仍有權責劃分重疊跨部會協調不足的疑慮且在核廢料處置的資訊公開災害風險評估及公眾參與等方面的透明度仍有待提升"},{"start":1652.941,"end":1667.506,"text":"如何在法規與監管架構之下建立更清晰的權責層級與跨部會協調機制以強化核能安全治理的法治化"},{"start":1669.022,"end":1689.784,"text":"另外是否參考國際原子能總署及經濟合作發展組織的核能署的做法來推動核安風險評估報告定期公開跨機關資料整合與民眾參與機制第三個議題有建於我國雖參與"},{"start":1692.639,"end":1715.505,"text":"但EA COPDEP等國際核安技術交流但受限非國際原子能總署的正式會員與先進國家的合作層級仍有限未來是否能在核安會的編制下推動更高層級的國際交流與共訓機制第四個議題"},{"start":1717.403,"end":1744.944,"text":"有鑑於我國核能技術安全管理及放射防護等專業人才雖由多部會及學研機構共同推動但資源分散規劃不一長期整合機制仍待強化政府應該如何整合核能人才的培育配合核能安全監管與核能發展"},{"start":1745.805,"end":1767.896,"text":"他的主要挑戰為何都是要討論的好我們現在介紹與會的貴賓目前到的學者專家貴賓有前台灣電力公司核能安全處王總機察"},{"start":1773.339,"end":1796.905,"text":"好 歡迎第二位 清華大學科技法律研究所高明志教授第三位 前第二核能發電廠林文昌廠長第四位 美國愛荷華州立大學核子工程系賀利維博士"},{"start":1799.156,"end":1823.479,"text":"歡迎第五位中華經濟研究院綠色經濟研究中心陳仲順副研究員第六位氣候先鋒者聯盟楊家髮發起人第七位綠色公民行動聯盟崔素心秘書長"},{"start":1827.213,"end":1853.297,"text":"第八位新北市議會林秉佑議員第九位核能中留言終結者黃世修創辦人好目前我們在介紹與會的政府官員第一位核能安全委員會主委陳明珍"},{"start":1856.889,"end":1882.977,"text":"核能安全委員會主秘王崇德核安會綜合規劃組組長王里奇斯核安會核安管制組組長高斌核安會輻射防護組組長張淑君核安會保安應變組組長林真炫"},{"start":1888.8,"end":1914.062,"text":"河安會核物料管制組組長陳文權國家原子能科技研究院院長高子牧經濟部國營事業管理司司長胡文忠經濟部能源署副組長游祥偉"},{"start":1919.636,"end":1947.484,"text":"台電副總經理徐永輝台電處長林志寶好那現在又來一位學者專家前行政院原子能委員會放射性物料管理局黃慶春局長好歡迎"},{"start":1952.854,"end":1969.908,"text":"為了讓大家能夠順利表達意見我們做如下的處理每位貴賓發言時間是7分鐘在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲的提醒第7分鐘結束時會有一個結束的鈴聲"},{"start":1972.779,"end":2001.672,"text":"那第二專家學者發言以簽名先後順序為準現場發言的書面資料立法會會做成紀錄來刊登公報在場的立法委員如果有意見發表請於10點之前登記那我們也會在會議當中進行穿插並以在場委員登記順序發言那如果委員要發言到現在就請要到主席台上來做登記了"},{"start":2003.342,"end":2030.885,"text":"那我们现在先请河安会主委陈明珍主委就现行规定执行状况相关问题提出说明那时间是5分钟主席各位委员各位先进女士先生大家好"},{"start":2032.355,"end":2048.066,"text":"非常感谢今天有这个机会代表核能安全委员会列席教育文化委员会举办的如何在核能治理法治化与透明化机制下精进我国核能安全与发展工程会"},{"start":2049.232,"end":2068.331,"text":"以下警告核安会的执掌分别从核能管制现状资讯公开灾害准备国际合作以及人才培育五个面向向各位简要报告一核电厂现状与法治推动"},{"start":2069.926,"end":2092.257,"text":"目前我国的核一二三厂运转执照都已借其进入除异阶段台电公司也因应除异需求进行组织与人力的调整核一厂部分非燃料相关设施已经陆续拆除目前各机组设备及组织人力已经和运转发电所需实施条件存有差距"},{"start":2095.56,"end":2120.165,"text":"合一場室外乾除設施已經運作並已完成一號機爐心燃料清空合一場室外乾除及合一二三場室內乾除設施將持續辦理中配合立法院三度通過《核四反應器設置管制法》第六條修正案合安會已經於10月8日完成執法"},{"start":2121.889,"end":2147.318,"text":"科技反应器运转执照申请审核办法的修订这是修法主要修正换届申请期限并强化辐射议题及耐震安全评估也新增除疫后恢复运转所需的再运转计划等规范使核能管制更加周延更符合国际标准二 资讯公开与公众参与"},{"start":2148.749,"end":2177.505,"text":"核安會非常重視資訊公開與社會溝通在官網設置有專區主動公佈各項管制資訊與重大案件進度包含核安管制廢棄物產量防護措施環境輻射監測等資訊此外對於重大案件與審查期間召開地方說明會令相關放射性廢棄物申請"},{"start":2179.886,"end":2192.682,"text":"申请执照阶段台电公司必须先举办公开说明会听取地方意见河南会也依法办理公告展示听证程序确保民众能充分参与"},{"start":2194.884,"end":2212.47,"text":"三 灾害风险评估与准备在核子事故的应变准备方面我国采取风险导向分级应变的原则依国际标准划设紧急应变计划区EPG作为防护重点区域"},{"start":2213.53,"end":2232.776,"text":"台电公司每三年提出EPG评估报告,在衡安会进行审查核定,为了落实透明性与公众信任,衡安会已主动公开评估报告与审查结果,确保角色公开透明,科学依据非常充分。"},{"start":2234.229,"end":2254.897,"text":"第四,国际交流与共同训练。我国虽然不是国际原子能总署的政治会员,但核安会仍积极参与国际技术交流,包括与美、日等核能先进国家每年定期举办双边合作会议,保持长期合作关系。"},{"start":2255.837,"end":2264.354,"text":"此外也参与OECD NEA等国际组织的技术讨论随时掌握全球核能安全最新发展"},{"start":2267.028,"end":2295.609,"text":"核能安全委員会持续运用国际合作关系推动核能国际交流培训机制以确保我国管制水准与国际同步第五核能人才的培育在核能人才方面核安会除透过核能公费留学运行科技学术合作研究计划等机制也将与大学合作开发核能课程以支持大学院校培养高专业人才"},{"start":2297.284,"end":2312.952,"text":"核安会内部也有相关训练体系,除了训练课程及阵阵外,亦派员与美日等国交流建立与国际实验室的合作机制,以确保专业与知识的实务经验得以延续。6.结语"},{"start":2313.852,"end":2337.47,"text":"对于核能议题政府秉持核安无虞核废有解社会共识三原则因应核国关税法第六条修法上路核核官员于近期完成执法相关程序调整未来坚持核能安全职责资讯公开强化公众参与促进国际教育培育人才以提升我国核能安全管制能量也让社会"},{"start":2338.211,"end":2358.545,"text":"能對核能議題有更充分的瞭解與信任以上報告敬請各位委員與各位先生不吝指教謝謝大家好 謝謝核安委主委請回座我們現在請經濟部代表發言時間三分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2367.604,"end":2383.852,"text":"主席各位委员及各位关心核能的先进大家好今天很高兴承蒙委员会邀请本部就这个议题来进行报告首先是核能的使用前提核子反应器设施管制法第六条修正案在今年五月公布"},{"start":2384.412,"end":2402.464,"text":"那總統就已經明定了這個條文明定了核能電廠可以在執照建滿後可以依法申請換發那面對核能電廠再運轉的可行性總統明白的揭示秉持兩必須跟三個原則第一個必須是核安會依法訂定安全審查程序辦法"},{"start":2402.924,"end":2430.229,"text":"其中核磁反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条等修正案已经在今年的10月8号正式的公告那第二个必须就是台电会依法进行自主安全检查评估再运转安全的条件其成与成本那三个原则分别就是核安无虞核废有解跟社会的共识在再运转的评估方面本部现在正在审理台电公司所传理的各核能电厂现况评估报告"},{"start":2430.689,"end":2445.316,"text":"那這份報告會針對核一核二核三廠現況跟廚藝的進程進行檢視包括了機組設備維護人力與訓練的配置燃料與廢棄物的管理地震耐震條件跟安全設計等那也會針對"},{"start":2446.497,"end":2462.4,"text":"再运转的执行整备工作项目进行评估包括自主安全检查关键设备的弱点改善工作项目的时间成本燃料供应等可用的资源这份报告也会评估再运转对于供电稳定的贡献以及减碳的效益"},{"start":2463.069,"end":2491.844,"text":"那在今年8月23日公民投票案後總統已經明白地宣示政府會在秉持兩個必須跟三個原則下積極來面對核能的議題評估核能電廠再運轉的可行性因此本部會致力推動依法 科學 透明的核安管理制度並支持以嚴謹的程序審視核電的安全確保台電公司會嚴格地執行核能電廠的自主安全檢查鞏固公眾對於核電安全的信心我們希望"},{"start":2492.304,"end":2518.14,"text":"核電的安全跟社會的信任能夠同時並行 以上謝謝好 謝謝經濟部胡文忠市長我們現在請台灣電力公司的副總經理徐永輝先生主席還有各位委員以及各位關心核能的先進大家早"},{"start":2519.216,"end":2544.699,"text":"今天城門櫃委員會邀請台電公司就如何核能治理法制化跟透明機制下的一個精進我國核能安全跟發展說明如下總統在今年8月其實已經有指示就是核能的使用必須要遵循兩個必須跟三個原則第一個必須當然是核安會必須依法訂定安全審查的程序辦法"},{"start":2545.475,"end":2553.732,"text":"那相關的核磁反應器的設施的運轉制造申請審核辦法的第16條的修正內容呢也已經在今年的"},{"start":2554.958,"end":2580.183,"text":"10月8號正式公告第二個必須當然就是本公司必須依辦法進行自主安全的檢查評估載運轉的安全條件的期程還有成本目前本公司已經完成了各核能電廠的現況評估報告目前經濟部正在審理中後續如果核准後本公司將依全數的辦法第16條修正內容"},{"start":2582.523,"end":2610.626,"text":"編撰所謂的再運轉計畫並且啟動自主安全檢查全面來檢視機械電器還有儀控這些設備材料在運轉環境下老化的狀況未來維護的保養的策略然後來評估並確認設備是否需要汰換或執行老化管理來符合法規的條件跟安全的要求那主要再運轉計畫跟自主安全檢查的目的跟內容如下"},{"start":2611.311,"end":2618.798,"text":"第一個 在運轉計畫它的目的就是要把已經停機的機組的設備跟電廠的組織帶回到可營運的狀態它的內容包括長子機組現況跟計畫排程也包括組織人力配置跟訓練的規劃"},{"start":2628.627,"end":2652.148,"text":"還有再運轉的工作項目跟定期維護跟檢查的規劃也包括在運轉期間的規範還有運轉文件恢復的規劃還有包括品質查證方案跟稽查計畫自主安全檢查的目的主要是要評估各電廠各項設施設備組件在受其40年屆滿後它可以延長運轉的年限"},{"start":2653.088,"end":2674.998,"text":"這裡面包括整體老化評估與老化管理也包括了實現老化的分析也包括了中期安全分析包括跟運轉技術規範的增修內容另外在修正的執法裡面也規範了輻射相關議題的差額評估跟耐震的安全的評估說明"},{"start":2676.926,"end":2694.515,"text":"那本公司完成了自主安全檢查報告以後也會接受國外獨立機構進行所謂的同儕審查來評估再運轉的可行性那本公司作為能源政策的執行單位首重核能安全除依據法規辦以外也將參考國際同儕進行標竿學習確認核能專業跟標準"},{"start":2700.658,"end":2712.208,"text":"那經濟部核准的核電現況評估報告後我們也會依法來完備災運轉計畫跟執行自主安全檢查秉持專業穩健務實的做好每一步 謝謝"},{"start":2721.363,"end":2730.093,"text":"好我們現在請簽名順序第一位的專家學者前台電和安處王總機察來進行發言"},{"start":2748.553,"end":2770.453,"text":"主席還有各位專家各位來賓大家好我今天啊真的是很高興啊竟然還有這個機會來到最高的這個立法院的這個廳堂來講一講我這一輩子最關心的事情那我只要一講出來"},{"start":2773.888,"end":2794.745,"text":"我才講出來你們在座的可能都以前都不知道有這個內幕啊事實上呢合一合二合三的原理啊以前就是我在台電的時候大概公司指定我就做這一件事情的原理所以"},{"start":2796.018,"end":2823.095,"text":"我們曾經在這個前面這個一二十年啊針對合一廠已經跟研能會那時候叫研能會啊已經都拿快要拿到了所以這一點呢可能各位大概就比較不清楚事實上我們台電本身就是有這個經驗可以拿到執照但是那個時候剛剛福島事情發生了所以呢最後合一廠就沒有"},{"start":2825.003,"end":2849.368,"text":"就放棄了就是沒有拿到這個執照但是核二核三我們都有繼續把它做完做下去那核三現在我們在談的就是談核三那我非常高興就是說今天我們也台灣也辦了公投公投也看起來是蠻成功的然後現在政府單位看起來也是贊成我們這個繼續運轉下去那我"},{"start":2854.864,"end":2881.644,"text":"只要我要講的一個事情就是說針對我們荷輪電廠的原理台電都是按照因為我們的電廠都是都是美國的所以我們都是按照美國人怎麼做我們就怎麼做所以我在公投之前我是到處在宣講就是說一定要盯著"},{"start":2882.83,"end":2901.589,"text":"台電按照美國的這種方式來做然後那個核安會就是一定要盯好剛剛我們兩位長官都已經把這個事情都已經講得很清楚了所以我是說今天既然"},{"start":2903.038,"end":2921.945,"text":"找我民眾黨啊找我要來講幾句話那我就真的是我們千萬要有信心把這個河山的這個原理一定要把它做好然後河也可以做原理那希望呢民眾黨不要"},{"start":2924.195,"end":2952.768,"text":"一定要把它堅持到底啊因為因為我發現啊我已經這一輩子這後面這20年啊已經都是已經頭髮都擺成這個樣子就代表我這壓力很大因為我已經為了這個研議這個工作已經在台電我已經花了多少錢花了多少人力那今天看起來呢今天包括在這個在這個場合真的是我看到很接近"},{"start":2953.649,"end":2975.403,"text":"要成功的一個階段那我希望民眾黨一定要把這個事情要把它盯完然後剛剛我們都聽到台電的長官還有河安會你們剛剛講的話我不能說你們一定要怎麼樣我就說希望你們到按照你們剛剛講的"},{"start":2977.079,"end":2998.115,"text":"要堅持下去把它做完然後這個是我的心念那我最後再講一個事情為什麼今天這個嚴厲這個工作為什麼找一個河岸處的一個總機察為什麼總機察在做這個事事實上我的專長是核能安全"},{"start":2999.769,"end":3021.564,"text":"所以當初公司指派我來做這個事情他的重點就是說你核能安全你一定要把它做好所以才特別指定我來立的這個團隊我那個團隊最高的時候大概有100多人那我有信心只要"},{"start":3023.516,"end":3048.957,"text":"政府不反對我們這樣做的話我想台電現在目前的人力應該也都是有辦法把這個工作非常嚴謹的把它做好我剛剛私下我已經跟我們這個副總副總事實上是以前我的學弟就是小老弟現在當副總我退休了但是他跟我講了一些話我覺得細心滿滿"},{"start":3051.286,"end":3073.679,"text":"就是說我們共同來把這個研擬這個工作把它做好然後給台灣有足夠的店這樣子好不好我這個真的有一點講一講就有一點想要掉眼淚因為我沒有想到說最後我退休了以後五六年了竟然還有這個機會"},{"start":3075.413,"end":3102.31,"text":"能夠在這邊講話特別是今天這個是立法院的一個最高的一個殿堂能夠在這邊把我想要講的想要做的事情把它做完當然今天在在座的有一些人可能看法是不一樣但是我覺得我們大家為了這個台灣為了我們的能源希望"},{"start":3103.308,"end":3112.611,"text":"把事情做完 絕對不要去反對他這樣好不好 蘇西 謝謝你啊我已經碰到你 碰到好幾次了謝謝你給我這個機會 謝謝好 謝謝王總級察"},{"start":3125.799,"end":3136.774,"text":"我們現在請第二位發言清華大學科技法律研究所的教授高明志先生請麥克風就靠近一點"},{"start":3137.612,"end":3157.132,"text":"好的 主席 主席劉委員然後以及各位與會的核能的先進以及專家們大家好然後其實我今天來分享的主題啦其實就是來跟大家談比較是從談公眾溝通跟法制面的議題這樣然後其實今天討論題剛剛其實一開始主席有說其實那個"},{"start":3157.933,"end":3184.133,"text":"那個議題內還蠻多的我今天只是說我大概定位在前兩題因為其實後面兩題應該有其他更厲害的先進可以去做分享這樣然後然後其實在進入提綱之前其實我們之前在3月19號的時候其實在這個會議室裡面其實也有已經有辦過類似的然後其實我前一次其實就說假如說這次這個8月的公投其實"},{"start":3184.953,"end":3211.468,"text":"或者說相關的議題來說其實我們台灣目前在推飛河計案其實有蠻大的問題那我不重複講我之前的論點那我主要是在講說其實我猜想今天其實蠻多的與會的專家有一些專家或許會一直說河山公投沒有發生法律效力的這一點可是其實我一直在覺得說我一直覺得說其實河山公投無論如何他到底有沒有達到那個"},{"start":3212.386,"end":3226.825,"text":"人數的門檻其實它已經在公投的前一天就已經發生事實上或政治的效力大家必須要注意這一點就是曾文森董事長其實有說無論核三公投結果都要啟動安全評估"},{"start":3227.706,"end":3249.213,"text":"而且那個時候是說兩年,因為兩年這句話很有趣,我猜有一些專家可能會針對這個兩年的部分做琢磨。然後當時其實有蠻多的討論,就是說這公投浪費錢,然後浪費了11億,可是實際上大家其實在場的,大家也都知道說都紅阿來的啦,所以其實都知道說,其實到底是誰,"},{"start":3250.493,"end":3266.611,"text":"非害大家一定要來做這個公投其實某種程度來說其實就是有一些目前其實還有少數覺得說反正就是反核的神主牌的這個部分所以我會覺得說這裡做一個說明然後其實在公投結束之後其實我有接受報導者的訪問"},{"start":3267.552,"end":3289.691,"text":"我會覺得說核電在台灣未來非常有意義特別是從2018之後其實一直在推所謂以核養綠公投然後以核養綠公投大家就會覺得說以核養綠公投它的核心內涵到底是什麼我覺得摘出來就是這一句話就是其實最近大家也都知道說再生能源無論太陽光電離岸風電已經有點像是引發變成有點像過街老鼠的冷寒打"},{"start":3290.111,"end":3310.444,"text":"然後當然說其中一個原因就是它造成了高電價的這個問題然後我會覺得說利用便宜的核電來紓解就是電價上漲的壓力其實向來是各國其實不是只有台灣其實世界各國都是用這個方式來紓解民眾對於再生能源的那一種厭惡感"},{"start":3311.545,"end":3336.603,"text":"所以我會覺得說核電在今天的這個場合其實非常的重要特別是對台灣的未來非常重要這是我在進入主題之前稍微說一下那至於說在針對媒體的主題我大概都栽入一些我自己覺得台灣相對來講比較欠缺的議題來跟大家做討論然後大家其實說在座其實有蠻多的官員其實你們都長久以來做核能的溝通嘛"},{"start":3337.023,"end":3362.994,"text":"啊什麼樣叫做正確的認知啦我只能跟我我我我觀察了在這觀察這個能源政策25年以來啊我發現說那根本就是不可能啦因為就是信則很細不信則很不幸吧對啊湯庫斯都退休了可是那個我我每次會放這一張圖就是說說湯庫斯的mission在困難其實都沒有我們台灣今天要做溝通這件事情困啦因為湯庫斯最後都可以解決嘛對然後"},{"start":3367.54,"end":3390.97,"text":"然後可是雖然說政府其實都一直在做說他非常公開透明可是最近這幾年其實我就不講說是哪一個溝通其實大家都知道說能源淨零氣候領域其實那個有些單位其實會很認真做了蠻多溝通的事情可是這是我整理出來常見的大家在溝通看到的一些問題比如說什麼勒"},{"start":3391.67,"end":3415.271,"text":"就是說政府常常就很喜歡把一個文件就丟到就未來其實假如說有這個核能安全包括丟到網路上然後就說大家來討論你沒有擷取問題你沒有擷取大概20個關鍵問題其實民眾有時候無從討論其實很難討論聚焦所以其實常常每次很常這種溝通的場合大家也都發現說我最喜歡做一個動作就是這樣"},{"start":3416.607,"end":3432.802,"text":"就是很多點都對不起來然後其實蠻多有做溝透的人都會感同身受所以意見就會流於雞頭鴨講未必呼應當天的研究主題然後更重要的是我們發言人我常去那些場合我很常去發言可是我後來看我的會議記錄"},{"start":3434.54,"end":3463.662,"text":"被做了很奇怪的濃縮甚至可能不是我的意思然後這是很常見的因為我25年前我就是專門做這種溝通會議的會議紀錄所以我完全知道很忙嘛怎麼可能做組織稿咧所以就有很多溝通上面的問題然後也包括說像最近發現說有一些有名的主持人啊很喜歡把發言者的意見做不精確的歸納然後再說請部長回答請次長回答類似這種相信說大家聽了可能都會滿感同身受的"},{"start":3464.102,"end":3488.122,"text":"然後我自己其實在這過程當中我會觀察哪些國就是世界各國真的都向台灣做這種溝通嗎然後可是而且甚至我常常會把這種溝通的影片放給學生看然後學生就會說為什麼政府要找一個會議室再把很多的簡報重新念過一次然後他同學其實聽了五分鐘就已經失去耐心了"},{"start":3488.482,"end":3501.991,"text":"所以我當然說最重要的我會覺得說政府其實也蠻無奈的所以我這邊有提出最重要的一點政府有報到有很可以很霸道的排除不是本次討論主題的回應然後這個不是我特別特別講因為那個"},{"start":3504.164,"end":3523.113,"text":"就是像比如說像英國英國就會做這樣的事情就是他53個回應可是他發現28個回應不是一半他就直接把它放到檢查部分他不用詳細回應所以我認為說其實今天發言之後假如說有蠻多其實我會證明說這種公眾諮詢制度的重要性"},{"start":3523.573,"end":3551.327,"text":"然後第二題其實要講的是這個權責劃分等等這些議題然後我必須要說我們河岸文化非常良好可是我們比較有趣的是我們是2011福島事件之後第一個降級河岸管制的國家現在已經降為了三級而且我們國內非常罕見的有這種三級的獨立機關這是非常罕見的所以可能要讓核能的層級回來可能可以回應這個命題然後最後到我的結論的部分我就簡單的說就是"},{"start":3554.997,"end":3577.546,"text":"然後其實我們目前之後要做的這個核能安全溝通到底能不能能夠仿照英國或歐盟導進這個因為其實像之前的前英國駐台代表唐凱琳回國之前我就跟她說說其實我們台灣欠缺你們英國的這種public consultation其實它可以避免台灣在各種議題機種壓降然後造成內吼然後最後"},{"start":3580.797,"end":3589.747,"text":"我再借個30秒就會切換一直卡住這就是我最後一頁因為這一頁我覺得蠻重要的就是說在核能重啟的時候其實一直有一個議題"},{"start":3591.075,"end":3615.3,"text":"一直被提起可是都不太有人觸碰就是這個要不要做環評這件事然後要不要做環評這件事我也想了很久可是我覺得說在我們目前的政府法規裡面或許少數可以解套的空間是在其他金主管機關指定之文件的這個事情上面然後因為我們大家都知道說這個議題假如不處理的話未來會產生的一些不確定性"},{"start":3615.74,"end":3628.629,"text":"那到底要怎麼處理其實目前法律都已經公佈了又感覺很難處理可是其實我認為說可以透過這一句話在16條16條之一16條之二當作一個媒介然後來處理這個議題好這是我的簡報不好意思拖到一些時間謝謝大家好謝謝清大的高明志教授那我們現在請立法委員郭育晴進行發言"},{"start":3647.389,"end":3672.168,"text":"好 謝謝主席那也非常謝謝在場的所有的先進大家早安我想講到這個河安的一個審查台電扮演了不同的多重的一個角色我想自主的檢查並要公開透明但是台電既是營運者同時又是一個檢查者本質上是不是會讓人家覺得是求援兼裁判"},{"start":3672.828,"end":3690.598,"text":"我想再多的一些報告其實也沒有辦法去承擔就是我們最擔心的河岸上可能會帶來的一些風險我想如果一旦核災發生我想這個影響的不只是跨時代它跨區域甚至它的後果是完全不可逆的"},{"start":3692.139,"end":3713.695,"text":"比如說像福島的核災所帶來的可能的環境的污染跟社會的成本就在提醒我們其實核能沒有所謂的零風險而真正的一個安全應該是要來選擇一個不會造成不可逆後果的一個能源而不是一些檢查報告的堆疊這是我的以上的意見"},{"start":3714.735,"end":3724.4,"text":"再來其實大家都知道核廢料的風險跟治理的一個透明化這樣子的一個主題是目前為止我們都還在依舊在尋找共識當中"},{"start":3726.311,"end":3743.786,"text":"核能的法治其實還是存在著所謂的權責的一個重疊那跨部會的一個協調不足的一些問題其實依舊存在那整個所有的治理的一個體系的脆弱但是最重要最重要重重之重的核心其實就是核廢料"},{"start":3744.306,"end":3771.449,"text":"高階廢料的處置廠到現在為止我們有達到共識了嗎那在全球其實都沒有永久安全的處置的一個方法連芬蘭其實也花了50年才決定選址最終的這個處置廠但是據說他們最新的報告又繼續展現他們的一個建造囉那換句話來說只要核能還在我們的土地尤其是在台灣我們是"},{"start":3771.989,"end":3790.539,"text":"地震多的一個這樣子的一個地方我們的土地就要背負萬年的一個輻射的一個風險或者是核災上的一個風險我想核廢料的處置包含在地的居民他們要有知情權再來他們也要有選擇權再來他們也要利益的共享"},{"start":3790.939,"end":3809.535,"text":"我想荷安的風險評估報告定期也應該要公開當然也包含核廢料的一些風險才能夠真正的代表民眾他們參與的一個機制而不是說我們公開透明的資料而已但是我們還要把更多的社會共識也納入最重要的討論當中"},{"start":3810.896,"end":3820.488,"text":"那再來其實在核災的國際及時援助我們有沒有可能在核安發生危險的同時得到國際的幫助呢"},{"start":3822.708,"end":3852.368,"text":"我想老舊的核電廠那不管這個國際的訓練或者是技術上的一些交流都沒有辦法讓老化的硬體能夠回春這個我想是大概每一個人應該都知道的所以我們是不是也應該要將資源投入到所謂的這些廚藝的技術跟本土再生能源的一個研發才是我們嶄新的一個方向那未來其實包含核融合的一個技術也是值得關注"},{"start":3852.908,"end":3880.868,"text":"那它比較不同於所謂的這個核分裂不容易產生所謂的高階的核廢料那將核融合的一些技術專業的一個人才的培訓或者是我們把這樣子的人才跟國際來做這樣子的一個交流那在廚藝跟核廢料的處理來做整合是不是才是比較有所謂的這個能源永續跟安全上的這個能源的一個策略那提供給大家做參考"},{"start":3881.408,"end":3896.594,"text":"那另外再講到這個人才專業的培養的部分我想還是要以永續的能源轉型為最重要的一個導向那重點是這個廚藝跟核廢料的一個處置還有核融合的一個新技術我們是不是應該可以整合教育"},{"start":3897.134,"end":3916.244,"text":"那麼科研跟產業的一個資源來建立長期的培育的一個計畫能夠確保我們的人才不斷鏈那再來剛剛我有特別提到就核廢料的一個管理那另外呢還有我們新興的這個核融合的能源的一個發展那核能的一個人才也應該要獲得支持"},{"start":3916.744,"end":3936.133,"text":"那麼再來再要投入所謂的綠能 儲能另外還有智慧電網等新興的一些產業我想這才是能夠讓更多的從業人員他們在整個所有的就是他們的高階的技術力不要流失提供以上的一些參考"},{"start":3936.733,"end":3956.514,"text":"我想這個總結來說我們不是在討論是如何把這個老舊的核電廠管得更安全而是要正視這個核能本身的一些風險跟它治理的一個困境我想真正安全的能源其實我們是剛剛有提到就是不要留給我們跨世代不可逆的災害的一個選擇"},{"start":3957.535,"end":3974.5,"text":"那真正的核安呢應該是要來自所謂的零核廢料那零不可逆的一個風險還有專業人才的一個投入那我想呢這個台灣應該是要把我們這個最有限的一些資源那麼建構在安全永續的能源的系統上"},{"start":3975.481,"end":3996.642,"text":"當然很多人可能會講說這個公投都已經過了但是大家忽略了這個核四至少還要再花10年以上尤其是我們的二號機其實是還沒有完成至少還要再800億的一個預算才會蓋完我想2024年我們的燃氣發電占比其實也已經超過所謂的燃煤的發電"},{"start":3997.623,"end":4024.14,"text":"那當然也許很多這個在場的先進有不同的一些意見但是我提供我以上所知道的這些跟大家來做以上的一個分享好 以上謝謝好 謝謝郭韻琴委員好 接下來請劉淑冰召委"},{"start":4028.305,"end":4056.548,"text":"好 謝謝代理主席在場的各位官員還有學者 專家大家早安今天在談論核能治理的法制化跟透明化機制來新進我國的核能安全與發展我們看到的是核能的治理與發展它並不只是電力技術的一個選擇更攸關到我國產業競爭力跟能源的安全"},{"start":4057.228,"end":4076.522,"text":"身為在野黨的立委我要嚴正的指出現今政府的能源政策已經脫離了國際趨勢也忽略了科學跟現實的一個需求面對氣候變遷跟淨零碳排的目標全球紛紛的重視到核能的低碳跟穩定價值"},{"start":4078.203,"end":4092.891,"text":"不僅歐盟把核能列為了綠能的分類美國將它納入了零碳電力的組合日本也重啟了新世代核電計畫那科化國企業GoogleAppleMicrosoft等"},{"start":4093.311,"end":4107.279,"text":"更要求供應鏈在2040年前必須要實現全時無碳的電力若台灣繼續排除核能仰賴火力發電補充勢必會被全球供應鏈來邊緣化"},{"start":4110.189,"end":4120.478,"text":"現今執政黨所說的再生能源可以補足電力缺口但事實上在2023年三大科學園區的用電約430度再生能源發電卻僅有270億度連供應園區都不足"},{"start":4129.386,"end":4145.927,"text":"那過去呢我在質詢當中呢也多次提醒當前的系統用電率呢出現超過90%的現象那備轉容量呢一度警戒甚至要偷開備用機組來撐場面包括看一下這個PPT裡面就看得到甚至在9月17號的時候"},{"start":4147.93,"end":4175.367,"text":"核電廠的清油機組的都全開出現在這種情況電力不足還需要仰賴儲備能源包括的是8到14天的儲備的天然氣作為補充一旦運輸受阻兩周內就可能陷入供電危機這就是非常大的國安問題這樣的能源結構既不綠也不安全反而將我們暴露在地緣政治的風險當中"},{"start":4177.188,"end":4183.198,"text":"反觀核能它的三大特性低碳 穩定 安全正是台灣最需要的"},{"start":4184.352,"end":4211.991,"text":"核電的排碳僅12公克的CO2當量燃料可儲備至少18個月具備高強度的韌性每度電的成本也比燃煤與燃氣低尤其核三廠才剛停機不久設施與人力仍完備若能重啟既可穩定供電也可避免龐大的興建成本因此我要呼籲"},{"start":4213.379,"end":4231.206,"text":"政府正式核三廠的重啟讓核能回復到國家的能源佈局當然 社會對於核能的疑慮不能夠忽視但問題的根源在於資訊不透明事實上 核三廠自1984年運轉以來超過30年從來未發生重大事故"},{"start":4236.107,"end":4256.703,"text":"也多次通過國際能源總署的集合這些數據政府應該主動揭露讓科學證據來取代恐懼現在我要特別強調核安資訊的公開透明是重建社會信任的基礎這邊我們來看一下美國的核安"},{"start":4257.843,"end":4282.198,"text":"核安壞的網站他針對帕利賽茲的核電廠重啟的審查公開資訊大家可以看PPT裡面就已經從主頁當中一進去就可以點到核電廠所有的審查跟會議的資訊那我們繼續往下看這個核電廠的重啟跟審查公開資訊當中包括到提交的審查時間還包括預計完成的時間雖然"},{"start":4283.979,"end":4309.316,"text":"核安會都有強調包括台電有說他們已經做了一些重啟就是做了一些這個可能重啟的這部分的資訊但是有沒有個時間表而且事實上每一個階段都已經寫出來了這一部分要注意到那另外我們再繼續看到剛才也有提到說有說要做環評很棒啊那我們先看到美國這邊呢他有對重啟核電廠的環境評估的審查時程這裡面包括的"},{"start":4310.717,"end":4328.086,"text":"核安會的受理審查利害關係人通知包括汪明志教授也提到了這些部分利害關係人通知公眾參與的會議還有核安會提出的評估草案草案意見的徵詢他重複最後的評估決策"},{"start":4329.046,"end":4350.015,"text":"這部分都是非常重要的但是反觀我們看到的是我國河岸會主動公開的資訊的這個網頁當中就可以看到這個部分洋洋灑灑有13項但是並沒有規定審查時程這些部分都是很普通的一般資訊那另外也沒有及時進度跟河岸會的審查報告"},{"start":4351.255,"end":4373.515,"text":"有些部分是關於說 核安會公告了核三廠廚藝 有但是呢 他在這首頁當中的下面部分可以看到關於核電廠的廚藝管制等等的相關的這些部分都可以看到 申請審查等等的一直點到這裡也只能看到審查時程規劃都已經跳了好幾頁了 不是很願意公開這麼多資訊"},{"start":4375.957,"end":4388.017,"text":"這部分我們可以看到的沒有這些審查時程內容只僅限這些而且資訊零散的又不透明因此我希望核安會我要要求核安會不該繼續在"},{"start":4390.512,"end":4405.106,"text":"再度下去在於說他必須要真的回應到公開資訊透明的讓方便去查詢的一個狀況先前我們考察台電的時候在運轉的計畫與自主安全檢查早已經準備充分了"},{"start":4406.207,"end":4428.269,"text":"那核安會應該將審查的時程跟進度規劃出來公告周知並將審查時程及時進度跟結果的資訊公開讓全民都能夠有效的監督重建信任最後我要嚴肅的提醒執政黨能源政策不該是意識形態的戰場而應該是國家安全跟競爭力的基礎台灣沒有這些怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4430.233,"end":4445.219,"text":"但總統既然已經承諾核電重啟可以是個選項之一針對核安無虞 核廢有解 社會共識三項的原則就應該立即要求行政院提出具體的評估指標跟規劃"},{"start":4446.986,"end":4460.316,"text":"記住喔 就是具體的評估指標跟規劃而不只是韓韓口號不排除核能這樣的模糊與矛盾正是在讓全國都付出代價最後呢 要提出呼籲"},{"start":4462.711,"end":4491.837,"text":"正視能源安全與產業近鄰的需求以科學為本重新檢討能源佈局第二 核安會應該立即改善資訊透明度讓審查進度與結果公開第三 呼籲總統召開國事會議邀請專家產業民間共商能源結構讓台灣的未來找到真正穩定安全永續的能源道路謝謝好 謝謝我們的署兵趙偉"},{"start":4503.69,"end":4509.012,"text":"現在請林文昌先生他是前第二核能發電廠的廠長主席各位先進各位專家大家好"},{"start":4530.756,"end":4556.477,"text":"我是林文昌從台電退休工作了40年退休已經10年這個年紀大了體力也越來越不濟可是這幾年來我們還是為著核電的問題在奔波說來是在很感傷一個我們過去蓬勃發展了40年的核電輪到到今天我們所有的機組都停了當然"},{"start":4560.182,"end":4586.649,"text":"國家的能源政策上是要發展綠能希望能夠減碳2050年也希望能夠達到淨零排碳可是把核能這一塊拿掉的話我們真的是懷疑啦這個只是一個空中樓格的一個理想實際上應該是要核能跟綠能一起來並肩合作才有機會達成"},{"start":4592.185,"end":4599.018,"text":"國家發展委員會在淨零排碳的過程中裡面提到了很多東西都是在"},{"start":4600.134,"end":4618.131,"text":"可能都在發展是遙不可及的東西我們不能把國家的能源放在一個遙不可及而且還沒有辦法確定能夠實現的這個理想上面這個當然做要做但是不能就把這些全部寄亡在這裡"},{"start":4620.954,"end":4642.932,"text":"剛才主席也提到了這個核電這個必要性還有全世界的發展我就不在這邊贅述但是我們從這個台電退休日內的觀點來看的話就是說剛才我們的這個王總機和他也提過實際上核一二三廠"},{"start":4644.602,"end":4671.341,"text":"他的研議的工作很早前就已經把書面的資料所有的該做的事情都幾乎都做完了那我們今天談到河山廠的研議河山廠當然是最後可是他報告也是完成了只是沒有送出去因為河一廠的問題因為政府會合家園的政策實施到台電做好的報告也送不出門"},{"start":4674.432,"end":4697.122,"text":"現在我們從10月27號就前幾天的報紙又更明確的看到就是說河山廠要將明確要尋求西屋公司來協助那麼明年初才會啟動第二階段的自我安檢最快到2028年才提交運轉計畫給河安會來審查"},{"start":4700.885,"end":4711.451,"text":"也就是說如果這樣一下去的話我們如果真的審查通過的話這時程我們看估計至少要一年吧可能是三四年以後的事情"},{"start":4714.075,"end":4735.605,"text":"所以我在這邊呼籲台電應該盡快把所謂的到底自我安檢的一些內容計畫提供給大眾來看包含它的經費到底為什麼需要做一到兩年的時間這是我沒辦法理解"},{"start":4736.886,"end":4760.962,"text":"那很多事情安檢檢查我過去的了解你可以提出申請以後再做檢查因為有些我們是美國的機組美國已經90%以上的機組都研議了他們都做那麼多了我們一樣化葫蘆就可以了他們有真的做到所有安檢都做完了才會"},{"start":4762.574,"end":4788.275,"text":"提出去跟申請研議嗎這個我個人是高度懷疑所以我希望台電能夠呼籲台電能夠盡快把它的安檢報告內容到底怎麼樣能夠提出來這樣的話讓大家來檢視看看到底是真的是需要這麼多的時間沒有第二點我想到就是說這個既然"},{"start":4789.386,"end":4804.156,"text":"我們台電的曾董事長也正式的對外宣布就是說三個核電廠都要做安檢那麼這個有結果以後再跟"},{"start":4805.632,"end":4832.763,"text":"大家提出來一個報告但是我認為就是說目前我知道合一廠已經有部分的設備已經拆除了不是核反應器的部分是發電設備的部分已經拆除了拆除了以後這個將來當然如果要重啟的話當然可以再買新的設備來安裝了這是沒問題的可是會多浪費錢所以我認為就是說在這一段我們自我安檢的期間"},{"start":4833.823,"end":4848.559,"text":"台電不應該再拆除核電廠的任何設備應該把它保留下來等到有結果以後再來看後續怎麼走這是我一個很誠懇的呼籲第三點還有一點就是說核三廠要重啟"},{"start":4849.42,"end":4869.753,"text":"我們知道沒有核燃料大家知道現在裡面的電廠裡面三合電廠都沒有可以充其核燃料這個需要採購 重新採購採購有它的時程我們從原料的黃餅我們就講原料釉的採購到原料釉釉釉拿去做轉化到濃縮"},{"start":4870.774,"end":4893.491,"text":"到最後找燃料製造廠家來做最後的燃料製造這個都需要時間這我想可能都是要超過一年甚至到兩年然後還要運輸到我們電廠來這個需要很多的時間那麼是不是台電有所準備那麼這一部分當然有牽涉到預算的問題那麼台電會"},{"start":4897.85,"end":4918.314,"text":"有沒有什麼計畫什麼時候來啟動這一個採購的計畫那我不曉得現在的合約有沒有合約如果你要去公開採購的話要公開招標採購的話要重新來的話那可能是曠日會死這是我一個呼籲是可能要台電要特別來注意以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝林文昌廠長"},{"start":4928.476,"end":4937.382,"text":"我们现在请爱荷华州立大学合工所博士贺立伟先生发言"},{"start":4953.066,"end":4963.748,"text":"大家早安我是贺立伟我在这边有几点向各位报告第一点这是有关于何安无鱼的"},{"start":4971.152,"end":4991.519,"text":"第一点是有关于核安无语的前提我们大概回溯一下我国三座核电厂还有新建到一半的核四这么多年来所发生的弊案违法违规的案件针对已经定验的"},{"start":4992.591,"end":5012.701,"text":"还有违规的已经处罚完成的对这些违法违规的案件我们是不是要追踪追溯它对核安的影响我举个最简单的例子就前几个月核二厂陈厂长在这边"},{"start":5013.903,"end":5040.336,"text":"那個廠長雖然他在核肺核輻射的SCADA系統上的舞弊雖然他好像現在還在受壓當中但是司法的歸司法但是在這種核子核胺工程背後弊案對核胺影響有多大我們似乎至少我個人沒有看到有很嚴肅的去追溯"},{"start":5042.557,"end":5069.187,"text":"那根据监察院的资料呢何时有发生过多少件超过两千件超过两千件的违法违规的事情那违法的案件还有一个案件一个案子就七个人被判刑最终的判了12年很可能现在还是牢里面那在这个违法背后对河安的影响多大"},{"start":5070.311,"end":5090.093,"text":"就像我刚刚提的,虽然核二厂判刑还没有定议,可能矿业费13年5年,不知道什么时候定议,但是它对核辐射是一个对辐射侦测的神经系统,却在这个神经系统里面贪污。"},{"start":5091.601,"end":5118.681,"text":"这对我来讲是非常可怕的事情所以我在这边呼吁我的学长何安会主委我们是同一个学校出来是不是能够针对这些贪腐案件背后对何安的影响做个追溯不管你三个核电厂要重启也好核市场要继续盖下去也好是不是先对这些弊案"},{"start":5119.676,"end":5141.736,"text":"做一个完整的追溯还要编多少预算来补强这些因为弊案造成的核安影响这笔钱不管多少亿当事人是不是要查封他财产不能说个人的贪污结果是全民买单这是司法不正义的"},{"start":5142.922,"end":5167.915,"text":"这是我的第一点就是说这些因为贪腐造成对河安的影响要有完整的补救措施河安的补救措施第二点有关于民众共识方面那么元仁会就是现在的河安会在几年前曾经发包了八千多万元给清华大学"},{"start":5169.181,"end":5197.358,"text":"有个三个核能安全针对我国核电厂有做个核能安全的一个分析报告书这个报告书结案以后监察院曾经对人能会提出了纠正案这个纠正案的结论是说这个报告结案后就从此诉诸高歌罚人问津我个人是核商厂"},{"start":5198.055,"end":5211.736,"text":"的核安委员之一就监督核安委员之一那么我也曾经请教核商厂的主管高厂长说这三份报告请问核商厂有没有拿来做参考"},{"start":5213.482,"end":5239.864,"text":"那个厂长在会议上说毫无所惜那么在这边也就是期盼我们的核安会能够针对这三份报告花了八千多万将近九千万元所完成的报告好好的来做宣传做宣扬向三个核电厂"},{"start":5241.854,"end":5266.114,"text":"到底里面所写的东西核电厂有没有采用人民知不知道里面的内容这三份报告我个人是读得非常的详细当初监察院有请我帮忙看看这三份报告的内容如何那我也写过一些我个人的意见在里面OK"},{"start":5268.353,"end":5291.888,"text":"下面就说我国的核能安全号称有一个好像是一个护身符叫做断然处置措施这个断然处置措施当然是早年的元仁会也是我一个老同事主要所主持的"},{"start":5292.928,"end":5317.179,"text":"一个廖博士他个人也说这并不是万无一失那可是呢在最近呢有清大的教授在各个媒体就说这个断然处置措施不是盖一个深水池在山顶上百来公尺的那个海拔比较高很高的地方有一个深水池就是万一那个"},{"start":5318.439,"end":5332.791,"text":"那个发电机被海水冲走它就可以利用地心引力把那个水灌到核电厂里面那现在三座核电厂都已经除异了那这个深水池它的抗震能力远远低于"},{"start":5334.028,"end":5348.619,"text":"河岛区的抗战能力万一发生个地震这个深水池垮了反而土石流会不会把正在厨艺当中的核电厂被土石流掩盖这个我们一定要"},{"start":5349.5,"end":5364.115,"text":"但是这位教授又说世界各个核电国家诸多的核电国家都采用我们的方法但是我也查了一下并没有任何一个国家有盖着深水器的"},{"start":5365.529,"end":5386.509,"text":"就算有蓋 那麼智慧財產權有沒有跟我們用納稅人錢所開發出來的這套方法有沒有確認以上就是我這幾點的一點小小的意見 謝謝各位謝謝賀利維博士的發言"},{"start":5396.052,"end":5403.664,"text":"我們現在請陳中順副研究員他是中華經濟研究院綠色經驗中心的副研究員 謝謝"},{"start":5409.489,"end":5429.79,"text":"各位好,我是中經院副研究員陳中順,我的專長是在於專門研究先進的這些潛在能源技術,以及在我們國家的電力配比跟一些電價的研究。我今天的題目是要談的是,台灣如果需要核電的話,這次的研議是一次個關鍵。"},{"start":5432.383,"end":5448.853,"text":"好那因為時間有限那我就直接講一個重點就是說在今天各位長官的報告裡其實我們沒有看到的是實際我們想要知道是執行的規劃還有目前執行的進度還有期程以及預算"},{"start":5449.773,"end":5464.199,"text":"那我想如果未來有機會是希望能夠有這些東西我們才好去追蹤整個計劃的進度的情形才能夠配合這次我們要談的這些資訊的透明化跟法治化"},{"start":5465.782,"end":5491.92,"text":"那我就開始來做一次我今天的報告那這個不能免俗的我想要提一下是能源政策一定是隨著時間必須與時俱進的過去我們在談的是RE100那現在就像剛剛劉委員提到的整個世界現在在談的是CFE247就是全時的低碳電力那這個規劃呢這個想法呢其實是來自於聯合國"},{"start":5493.181,"end":5501.593,"text":"也獲得了國際再生能源聯盟的承諾事實上他們已經把核電列為未來必要的一個選項"},{"start":5504.928,"end":5523.508,"text":"核電本身它是一個便宜又穩定、乾淨的電力你可以看到在台灣的美國商會、歐洲商會甚至日本工商會近期都相對對台灣的電力穩定提出了一些質疑更不要說我們台灣另外的這些工商會還有甚至半導體協會有一個數據跟各位分享"},{"start":5527.012,"end":5535.156,"text":"就是其實各位知道在這四年以來台灣最大的那一家IC廠它總共支援了台電27次的降載發電機的動用數目大概超近6000次"},{"start":5541.524,"end":5567.254,"text":"最大的鋼鐵公司光今年一年它就配合台電降載了28次所以當有人跟你說不缺電的時候你要想想為什麼這些工商會他會有這個意見核電廠核三一部機大概產生的電力是80億度大概就等於台灣如果有2GW的太陽光電加上1.5GW的離岸風電所產生的電力"},{"start":5569.875,"end":5592.186,"text":"那一年呢它就可以為台灣節如果用核電來代替太陽光電的話一年可以節省338億元也就是說如果我們把四部核二核三的機組都啟動的話一年可以為台電節省1352億元那只要兩年台電的虧損2000億的虧損就可以折抵抵回來了那為什麼會這樣呢"},{"start":5593.507,"end":5616.297,"text":"因為目前全世界大概有60座的核反應器都已經完成了研議佔總數的15%那在IEA的報告裡面在日本產經省的報告裡也都告訴你2040年的時候即使到2040年研議都會是所有可調度積碳電力裡面最便宜的一種方式"},{"start":5617.847,"end":5636.594,"text":"那臺灣的表現在河岸上一直都是非常好的我相信在座的我的前輩大家都很知道然後我們的表現大概在你可以看到在這個我們的設備使用率方面大概都有九成是超過整個國際的平均值的那以河山同樣的機組的研議計畫來說光美國法國就超過了十種"},{"start":5640.755,"end":5648.268,"text":"而超过了十步以上所以这是一个有迹可循的可以做的事情它并不是一个重新再来起的"},{"start":5649.639,"end":5670.201,"text":"那我们如果谈到研疫的话当然它还是会有一些风险我列出五个风险那其中我们今天最重要的是法规的风险我们今天已经看到了在审核办法方面河安会已经做了很大的进步但其他的方面还有很多要做的那这里我也希望河安会能够学习能源署"},{"start":5670.922,"end":5695.447,"text":"他們在聯緣署的做法很有趣只要任何的政策有一些新的計畫風吹草動他都會發新聞稿希望能夠河岸會這邊不要只要等到事情都結束之後才告訴大家那您可以經常的發新聞稿讓大家知道整個進度這件事情不是因為我們要追蹤更重要的是我們希望能夠建立河岸會的能見度"},{"start":5696.287,"end":5711.547,"text":"還有核安會在群眾之間的公信力在過去原能會的時代我曾經說過我在核研所工作在原能會的核研所工作結果別人回答我的是說你講的是原住民委員會嗎所以"},{"start":5712.168,"end":5727.15,"text":"那個時候的原能會其實很不被大家看見希望未來的核安會能夠有很大的改進那在另外一方面我們也必須承認在這個核廢料的部分是大家都需要解決的無論未來有沒有核電"},{"start":5728.331,"end":5753.358,"text":"核廢料我們都需要來共同解決那最重要的是高放條例其實到現在都還沒有那沒有高放條例你怎麼樣往下做這是我們一定要繼續追蹤的事實上在今年的應該是在7月的時候明天版的高放條例都已經出來了草案都出來了所以我希望在政府這方面也能夠有一些更快的進度告訴大家情況是什麼"},{"start":5754.498,"end":5774.36,"text":"那在人力培育的方面這邊我列了很多那今天因為比較細沒有時間講那我主要是想要講的是說如果你沒有專業的人力你要怎麼去談河安呢所以這個部分希望河安會跟台電這邊都能夠有更好的規劃讓大家能夠熟了解"},{"start":5776.243,"end":5804.013,"text":"那最後就是這個總統一直在提的SNRSNR這件事情它並不能解決我們河岸現在的問題也不能夠解決我們能源的問題目前來說你現在要做的這件事情只是一個在政治上的緩兵直擊我希望我們認真的面對這個問題然後把SNR視為中長期的選項那短期之內還是把河岸還是把研議做好"},{"start":5804.873,"end":5824.694,"text":"那這邊是我想要跟各位分享的一件事情剛剛郭委員有提到台灣的地震很多可是你看看我們的所有的新能源技術無論你是要做氫能還是你要做CCS還是你要做核能還是你要做太陽光點都需要土地而且呢氫能在儲存的時候它是氣體"},{"start":5827.858,"end":5840.884,"text":"CCS儲存的時候它將近一體請再給我30秒然後在核廢料儲存的時候它是固體那您可以想想看到底哪一種是相對安全在面對地震的時候"},{"start":5843.282,"end":5870.081,"text":"最後也就是我想用聖岩師父的說法河岸這件事已經纏繞台灣40年了我們該面對的去面對它接受它然後處理它最後再放下它好 這是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝陳中順副研究員請回座我們現在請氣候先鋒者聯盟的發起人楊家法先生發言"},{"start":5881.347,"end":5907.434,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位先進還有各位專家大家好我是楊家法我今天要講的是就是我對於這個台灣我自己認為是現在是進入一個台灣新核能時代就是從5月13號核管法修法之後台灣已經進入一個新的一個核能的時代"},{"start":5908.396,"end":5929.508,"text":"核能慢一天啟動就多一天損失慢一天啟動就多一天損失我先從我們的這個簡報我先講一下好了就是今年5月13號我們的核管法就是核質反應器設施管制法第6條的修正案"},{"start":5930.694,"end":5957.887,"text":"就是三讀通過之後我們就已經知道說現在研議已經不必提前五年來申請就是我們的執照屆期之後就可以去申請說換發新的運轉執照那我認為我們就是要快不要再等只要多慢一點啟動就是台灣的損失我們先來談空氣品質好了我相信這是許多人目前最關注的"},{"start":5959.329,"end":5986.32,"text":"我們可以看到這個簡報就是當空瓶不加的時候我們政府會有一些措施配套的措施那像台電的話就會有一個友善降載當然還有自主降載友善降載就是說當空氣品質打到橘色的時候就是AQI大於100的時候會實施這個友善降載那我舉個例子給大家看"},{"start":5988.257,"end":6016.173,"text":"今年的7月23就是大概兩三個月前那天的空氣品質非常不好我們看到簡報上面中部的話很多地方已經橘燈甚至紅燈那我這邊看到的是給大家看的是這個台中中火我們要友善降載可是你看到這幾個電廠的這個發電的曲線他沒有降大家可以看一下沒有一個是降的"},{"start":6017.725,"end":6047.074,"text":"都是往上 就是從下午之後一直往上 一直到晚上都是火力全開就是他9個機組全部都是往上的另外一個是在大修7月23號中部的下午的時候是橘色的提醒 到了晚上是紅色的警示就是空品非常的糟糕那我們的火力 中火這邊完全是沒有辦法降災"},{"start":6049.724,"end":6078.329,"text":"那台電也想有線降載但是現實就是做不到就是做不到因為我們沒有其他的替代就是你到下午到晚上的時候這段時間全部都靠火力你煤都減不下來更別說天然氣你看一下這個我自己上網抓的這個曲線這是天然氣的一個發電的曲線越晚是越高剛剛前一張是中火"},{"start":6079.793,"end":6107.487,"text":"中火是完全沒有在降因為它沒降不下來的那我講這個並不是說台電不努力啊是他沒辦法做到那我今天站在這裡我就要問下面這個幾個問題我們蓋這麼多的光電這麼多的風電目前投入的錢超過一兆我們花了這麼多錢去做"},{"start":6108.787,"end":6135.721,"text":"蓋這些天然氣的設施目前已經超過2000億了結果在空品不佳的時候你連燒煤都降不下來你到底在搞什麼更別說你天然氣每個月都在增加這原因是什麼備轉容量率不夠你空品惡化的時候你就不用去想要降載了9月19號也是一個例子"},{"start":6137.726,"end":6163.256,"text":"當天台電的官網上面備準容量率是10.5%綠燈 供電非常充裕 綠燈那我們看到一樣那天的那個台中這邊跑到橘燈了 空瓶跑到橘燈了你是不是要友善降載結果沒有他在反而是在開啟台中的緊急汽渦輪合二合三的緊急汽渦輪"},{"start":6165.823,"end":6194.392,"text":"你的備準能量率有10.5%怎麼把這些緊急機組都開下去跟大家講我們自己我們自己有做網頁我們去觀察這個實際的備準能量率當天只有5.7%最低的時候5.7%所以他當然要去開啟這些緊急的機組不得不啊並不是你看到的那個綠燈好不好並不是"},{"start":6197.574,"end":6224.047,"text":"那如果今天我們核三沒有除役我們讓他延役的話9月19號我們就可以多4.8%的備轉容量根本就不用這樣匆匆忙忙去開那些緊急的機組如果你把核二核三都開下來可以多9.8%的備轉容量也就是當天實際上會有15.5%以上的備轉容量那就是真的綠燈了"},{"start":6226.313,"end":6250.391,"text":"但是我們不是啊 我們把河農關掉之後 其實台電工廠上看到的備轉容量都是只有日間封 他沒有夜間的沒辦法誠實的告訴大家 真的是到了傍晚 你看4點半就剩5.7%了不好意思 我今天這個我從來講快一點好 那為什麼河農蔓延起動就是台灣的損失我們來看中火"},{"start":6252.111,"end":6280.225,"text":"過去這5個月從5月17號河山除役之後台中電廠的用煤量較去年同期增加了15.9萬噸這是政策的錯誤這不是中火的人的錯這是政策錯誤叫台電背鍋政府不敢跟你講煤燒那麼多哪有在減煤今年至少今年沒有這5個月都沒有看減碳看世界的電力碳排地圖"},{"start":6282.196,"end":6303.857,"text":"台灣其實已經被中國大陸超車了我們跟沙烏地亞國其實差不多我們的排名大概世界207名 206名我們可以去看這個低碳力的這個網站這個創辦人在我們台下我們會有可以去看這個東西我們台灣的排名其實是後段班我們不好意思 我再借30秒"},{"start":6306.889,"end":6320.694,"text":"我簡單講一下如果我們要去追上我們就必須要把這個核能啟用不然台灣就是繼續沉淪也沒辦法回應接下來AI時代的用電需求好謝謝主席好謝謝楊佳法發起人我們現在請綠色公民行動聯盟的秘書長崔素心發言"},{"start":6346.26,"end":6365.615,"text":"好 各位大家好那我们今天在谈这个核能治理法治我们刚刚一直在听大家讲这个延逸或者是重启或者是换照但我们真的觉得大家如果真的在在乎核能的问题的话不应该只谈核能运转的问题应该要谈核能安全的问题"},{"start":6366.135,"end":6379.081,"text":"因為這才是社會溝通大家最最關心也是民眾最關鍵認為我們應該要以安全作為最優先的考量我相信這是沒有人反對的不管你的立場或是不管大家對於任何能源的取向的選擇"},{"start":6380.165,"end":6400.652,"text":"那我们还是认为说在核管法修法之后其实现行核能法制在修订上一直有一些无法因应最新形式的漏洞我们已经跟核安会做了很多次的建议但是我们觉得好像并没有获得重视那我们现在看到在核管法修法之后核安会就依法必须要做核子反应器设施运转执照的申请审核办法"},{"start":6401.132,"end":6423.466,"text":"那目前需要換照的話 需要申請老化的評估分析 輻射一帖查核 耐震安全評估的說明但我們認為現行的這五項其實是不夠的那當然我們認為透明跟進入定期的追蹤報告 這一定很重要 我們絕對同意但是我們覺得光這五項並不夠我們認為這現行法制還沒有辦法含掛目前極端氣候跟軍事衝突的這個風險"},{"start":6425.328,"end":6442.861,"text":"所以我們對這邊當然有一些建議尤其是在近年來俄烏戰爭給大家啟示還有台灣現在的國際地位認知的風險我們認為其實必須要立院跟核安會經濟部都必須要認真地去思考國家安全跟核能安全跟能源韌性的一個問題"},{"start":6445.443,"end":6462.399,"text":"那其實從2022年開始其實國際或歐洲就一直在討論到底烏克蘭戰爭帶來什麼樣新的核能安全疑慮但是我覺得像這樣的思考都沒有被帶進我們國家核能安全的這個思考跟治理裡面包含其實像在德國的話他們也認為核電廠設計是無法抵禦軍事攻擊的"},{"start":6464.941,"end":6492.206,"text":"可是呢大家都會說國際法說會禁止在核電廠周圍發動這種戰爭的敵對的行動事實上這個國際規則其實是沒有人在遵守我們可以看到俄羅斯一開戰他就對車諾比核電廠的遺址對烏克蘭的核電廠進行攻擊甚至是佔領現在札普羅勒就在俄羅斯的佔領之下那在我們來看其實連美國他都不見得遵守這個他在對於這個中東的這個轟炸的時候他也是在這個核設施所以其實"},{"start":6493.246,"end":6516.622,"text":"本來核能跟戰爭其實這個東西是必須要在大陸考量而不是說能假裝在鴕鳥裡面看不到的那世界上也沒有任何的民用核電廠是在為戰爭時期運作而設計的所以其實在戰爭時期或在戰爭衝突威脅之下核能的安全跟保安的問題其實我們必須要另外的做嚴謹的考量如果這些保障沒有辦法確保的話那未來我們大家可能將會陷入"},{"start":6517.871,"end":6539.423,"text":"這是最新的核能風險裡面那不管是從2022年到現在大家都可以說到現在還有這樣的風險嗎但是我覺得大家不能看到說如果沒有發生核災就叫做沒風險如果沒有發生核災這個都是很多的好運在這裡面那我們可以到2025年10月1號其實札幌羅勒核電廠又有一次斷電危機這都已經說不清是第幾次了"},{"start":6540.163,"end":6559.995,"text":"那哲瑞司機就說這個脫離電網運作其實是可能是有危急的狀況然後這個當然不只是威脅的是烏克蘭甚至整個歐洲都會受到威脅那一直等到什麼時候呢大概接近一個月之後扎破羅伊核電廠才回復聯外的電網所以這樣的危機這樣的威脅是存在的我們台灣在做這個"},{"start":6561.596,"end":6571.664,"text":"核電安全的時候我們是不是有考慮假設我們也因為各種不可能天災或是戰爭的人禍那我們會聯絡電腦斷掉一個月以上可以因應嗎我們有這樣的緊急方案嗎"},{"start":6574.262,"end":6591.981,"text":"所以在這邊我們的第一個建議是應該要增訂國安風險的緊急方案那這個是在國際上其實也有相關的智庫跟報告可以參考的那台灣的電源政治敏感任何的這個我們核電廠的連外電網電系統中斷都可能會引發嚴重的核子事故構成國家安全的風險"},{"start":6593.953,"end":6613.823,"text":"那我們這邊當然有提供一些具體的應變措施那這個當然會希望我們相關單位能夠參考包含在軍事攻擊的應變方案包含在軍事攻擊製造勞工與人員的安全因為其實在俄羅斯他甚至去綁架札普羅勒的員工強迫他們為他工作這樣還有包含戰區的畫設我們是不是在電廠周圍應該要畫設非戰區避免炮彈波及"},{"start":6617.725,"end":6626.281,"text":"那這些我們都覺得是非常具體的東西但我們從來沒有看到我們的核安單位為這個來做過公開的說明包括如果有公聽問我真的會希望是這個題目"},{"start":6628.493,"end":6655.327,"text":"那再來就是氣候變遷的問題其實就連這個美國政府的問責署都有對NRC提出建議認為他們應該要採取行動充分考慮氣候變遷的潛在影響包含氣候變遷這些高溫 乾旱 野火 洪水 颶風海平面上升或是極端寒冷天勢事件都會對核電廠造成風險這些本來就是一個最新的情勢可是我們在目前我們的核安能治理的法則上也沒有看到這樣的一個評估"},{"start":6658.142,"end":6675.747,"text":"所以我們第二個建議是我們認為應該要納入極端氣候的影響評估報告那針對這些對於核電廠運轉的實質威脅要怎麼樣應變應對方案那如果我們這次在這種重啟或換照審核裡面都沒有納入這些的話我們會覺得不管是社會溝通或台灣核案自己都沒辦法跟國外接軌"},{"start":6676.767,"end":6695.943,"text":"那還有一個部分是第三個建議是跟臺灣比較切身相關的問題因為我們臺灣是在板塊在這個地震帶上所以我們認為原本的地震危害分析說明似乎太過輕易了我們認為我們認為應該改成地震危害分析能夠更專業一些更跟國際接軌一些"},{"start":6696.383,"end":6710.297,"text":"那這是因為在臺灣我們的是屬於環太平洋地質在我們風險其實比其他國家設置核電廠還要大所以我們認為在換造過程當中做地震危害分析來全方位的來呈現長子實踐地震的前世是非常重要的"},{"start":6711.687,"end":6740.448,"text":"那後來當然有包含今天工程會有討論的一些議題我們稍微有準備了一下包含我們對於新核能的這個發展現況我們認為新核能發展它只是一個借用剛剛我們前面講者來講好像是一個過於遙遠不切實際的一個期待所以其實我們覺得期待可以或者是研究可以但是呢當它真的要落實要在台灣上發展的時候我們覺得需要有更多更多的審慎評估因為它在短期內是無法來解決台灣的能源問題的"},{"start":6742.389,"end":6755.555,"text":"那金融時報也說其實現在這樣的一個我們認為應該算是一個新創世界它可能會失敗甚至它可能是一個最昂貴的能源它還在試錯階段甚至在各國裡面監察的安全的法案也都還沒有完全的成熟"},{"start":6757.981,"end":6782.481,"text":"那再来就是核电人才的部分其实我觉得台湾过去我们在核能人才的培育上都是在这个新建跟营运上但是目前核电厂其实在全球许多核电厂也都已经老化进入厨艺的阶段所以我们认为人才在做厨艺跟核废的人才培训也非常重要好 谢谢大家好 谢谢崔素心秘书长"},{"start":6784.622,"end":6787.939,"text":"我們現在請新北市議會的議員林秉佑先生"},{"start":6800.143,"end":6815.402,"text":"主席委員 各位先進 大家好我應該是在場所有的專家學者裡面最沒有核能相關經驗的一個專家但我今天來代表新北市是因為整個台灣的核電廠裡面包含沒有運轉的核四裡面"},{"start":6816.002,"end":6832.703,"text":"有兩座現在還在新北市我要分享的就是說在所有的問題當中尤其是扣合今天的主題就是如何透明化因為其實在我們新北市議會每當當有核能的議題在討論的時候其實我們的議員其實所獲得的資訊是非常的少"},{"start":6833.183,"end":6853.417,"text":"那大家會去想要影響這個核能對民意的這個結果的時候通常只有一個方法就是我們會去對市長要他要求他做一個表態那我覺得其實不是一個很健康的做法就是因為事實上是就我們地方政府跟中央的分工來講地方政府跟中央的分工並沒有很明確的在這些法規裡面去討論說該做什麼"},{"start":6854.898,"end":6873.599,"text":"那最後就導致一個現象就是我們會在整個審議的過程當中不管他是附屬的設施或是像這個核設施的這個運轉當中他最後還是會有地方政府權責的部分就像我們之前的這個幹事儲存的部分新北市政府就曾經用行政手段去干預了這個水保的這個許可長達11年"},{"start":6875.581,"end":6898.004,"text":"那單純一個水保設施就可以讓它延長11年的話那回到這個所謂核反應器的部分它是會更長的時間那就這些行政的錯舉來講如果沒有溝通的清晰的一個情況不是單純對地方政府而是對所有的民意代表甚至400萬的新北市市民那當然屏東也是一樣就是說對基層的這些百姓的溝通如果沒有到位的話"},{"start":6898.504,"end":6922.854,"text":"我們透過其他方式去干預這些我們現在希望推動的這種核電研議的進程其實會有很大負面的影響那包含我們剛剛談到其他很多不同的時程不管是研議20年那SMR的推進等等這些如果交錯去總和評估來看的話事實上都會認為說這個研議剛剛有前輩提到這個是新核能時代其實我們談的還是舊核能舊技術舊的這些做法"},{"start":6923.214,"end":6943.505,"text":"那是不是跟他中間會有一個交錯就是關鍵就在於前面有另外一位前輩提到就是我們如何去設定這個進程因為這些進程裡面只有在法規裡面簡單的講說我可以延幾年延幾年但是我後面推動包含台電自己在設定他的這個安全評估他就已經花了兩年的時間那這個兩年之後再過一段時間再過一段時間"},{"start":6945.026,"end":6966.427,"text":"人家美国已经研译了这么长的时间它前面已经完成了那等到台湾能够完成研译再去让它运转起来的时候是不是新的技术其实已经到位了我觉得这些时间成本是在这些讨论里面比较没有去讨论到的那更何况是如果我们不再加强这段期间的沟通我其实很想讲一件事情就是如果我们不知道要对谁沟通的话你怎么知道你要培育什么样的人才"},{"start":6967.108,"end":6985.881,"text":"我們現在其實面臨非常非常嚴重的問題就是我們在市議會面臨群眾的壓力很多的基層的民眾雖然我們不是直接在這個所謂可以收到回饋金的範圍但是大家都很清楚在可能的核安的風險之下大家對福島的事件這個歷歷在目現在還看到很多的紀錄片"},{"start":6986.681,"end":7015.428,"text":"大家在這種經驗之下大家都會去思考自身安危問題的時候我們很難有充分的資訊去對他們溝通的時候最後他就會形成一個政治問題導致我們在議會把這些壓力轉押給市長之後他採取的行政措施我講的就是最後如果沒有明確的分工或設定時限的話他最後就是會成為一個無限期延在行政錯舉當中或是政治決策當中無限期延宕的一個情況就是因為沒有人能夠承擔這個所以在這個部分就是我覺得"},{"start":7016.728,"end":7044.19,"text":"回到我們這個主題就是說我想強調的是對地方的溝通還有對中央政府跟地方政府的分工這件事情上其他事務上都有地方制度法去規範但是在這件事情上我覺得地方政府的角色是很模糊的甚至他在很多問題的審議上他並沒有去給他期限到最後台電是跟新北市政府是用訴訟的方式解決那現在合一的部分已經解決合二到現在還在訴訟所以我現在講的只是一個幹事組的部分就已經如此的話"},{"start":7044.97,"end":7072.738,"text":"那我們怎麼去談核反應器的部分所以我覺得這個是希望能夠在這次會議中提供給大家參考那最後我還是要講一個在前面我自己一個很大的感觸就是說今天台灣的能源的配比其實是什麼能源都要有不會說你核電比較好所以其他的能源就不需要我當然我聽到很多其他的說法好像就是核電就是便宜然後成本最低然後最安全最穩定然後去攻擊綠能這些其他的能源的類型我認為這是非常不對勁"},{"start":7073.458,"end":7101.172,"text":"因為台灣的能源不會只需要一種今天台灣人再怎麼支持核電全世界再怎麼支持核電的法國他也不過比例就70%左右所以我覺得用這種做法其實不會讓我們台灣未來的這個能源的構成或是能源的供應會更健康所以我希望就是說就是當大家在講綠電貴的時候有時候我們講這個網路上的一種算是一種笑話貴不是你的問題貴不是我的問題是你的問題"},{"start":7103.431,"end":7119.376,"text":"我們在講剛剛那個台灣最大的IC公司他最後買的電他還是去買RE100的用電他也不是買核電我覺得這些事情不能混在一起講我們居然要講核電是提供極窄用電的話那就不要把這些跟綠電或是減碳盤在一起我自己在新北市議會的時候我是在這個"},{"start":7120.696,"end":7146.148,"text":"環保相關的委員會裡面我們正在談我們花這麼多錢去講減碳的事情可是實際上全台灣所的叛台在全世界佔的比例是極少極少我們做這麼多的努力花了這麼多錢對全世界影響是微乎其微甚至對台灣的氣候影響是微乎其微的情況之下我們真的要花這些經費嗎還是要把這些錢用在真正我們關注的事情上也就是如果今天我們關注的是能源的供應國家安全的問題的話那就用這個問題來談而不是把所有"},{"start":7146.448,"end":7175.946,"text":"流行的詞語標籤全部貼在一個正向貼在核能上好像它就能夠解決所有的問題好像它是一個萬能藥其實不是我認為很多東西核能它就是解決一件事情就是我們是不是有的確能源不足的狀況如果它可以做到那我們就支持它而不是因為它能減碳因為它便宜因為它怎麼樣它就來做所有的能源都一樣它有它的優點有它的缺點那我覺得應該是互相去均衡這些要素才對而不是今天就是好像因為綠電比較貴然後又緩不濟急所以我們才支持核電"},{"start":7176.206,"end":7195.557,"text":"其實不能這樣去談所以今天就這些我就簡單的去跟大家分享那還是希望就是說如果未來在這些資訊上能夠更透明的時候尤其是它應該要法制化的對地方政府或是地方會做報告讓我們有更多的這個資訊能夠跟民眾做溝通才能夠順利的推動這個核電的研議以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝林秉佑議座"},{"start":7202.557,"end":7204.407,"text":"我們現在請何能留言終結者創辦人黃士修發言"},{"start":7214.929,"end":7241.625,"text":"各位好 我是黃士修今天很高興來到這個公聽會然後有這種正反意見交鋒的機會所以我回答一下前幾位講者講的一些意見首先其實今天一開場就提到了賴慶德總統講到核能必須要有三個原則核安無虞 核廢有解跟社會共識在核安無虞和核廢有解這兩點上是這40年來美國政府所擔保的"},{"start":7242.225,"end":7269.388,"text":"事實上在25年前也就是西元2000年陳水扁總統上台的時候也因為反核 宣稱核廢料無解使得美國政府震怒我在2021年核四公投的辯論會上秀了那一張聯合報當年的簡報所以我非常的悲哀就是在25年後的今天竟然還有人在台灣這樣質疑美國 反美 疑美"},{"start":7270.109,"end":7288.077,"text":"就說核廢料無解我們25年前發生的事現在還要再炒真的很悲哀另外在今天公聽會我看到會議附件的三個版本的修法草案上其實都提到的關鍵就是核能是綠能那當然我知道在這幾年反核方是打死不接受的"},{"start":7288.937,"end":7311.911,"text":"其實我一直很困惑就是你們為什麼不承認這個國際的現實呢你們承認核能是綠能這五個字會讓人們掉一塊肉嗎那事實上在今年的核三公投的時候全國肺核行動平台全肺台的甘崇偉作為反核方的代表他犯了一個戰略的失誤就是他終於承認歐盟認定核能是綠能"},{"start":7313.091,"end":7341.874,"text":"那但核三就不是那为什么不是呢我也被我也抓他的这个语病我就说你不觉得奇怪吗原来是因为反核方多年卡住核废料的处理所以就变成了核能在欧盟是绿能在国际上是绿能但核三发的电因为反核方把你的手脚砍了在嫌你不会走路但是只要我们能够解决核废料向国际方解决核废料的方法那"},{"start":7342.134,"end":7365.752,"text":"核三发的电或核一二三四发的电当然是绿能那我刚刚提到了这个核废有解这件事情那今天绿盟的崔素心秘书长也在场其实在绿盟2013年的核四报告中他们就已经知道核废是有解的而且包含核废处理核电厂甚至当时的核四成本只要一块三真的很便宜"},{"start":7366.432,"end":7390.421,"text":"这是当年洪森汉非常痛恨我的一个原因不过他这几年也不太讲核能了逃去当劳动部长之后就更不讲了还有另外一个就是刚刚贺立伟博士提到了他说台电有一些弊案有弊案就是刑法追究刑法判刑至于会不会影响核安你当这几十年来台电每年的安检以及我们的原能会核安会是吃素的吗"},{"start":7391.241,"end":7416.656,"text":"何立委博士完全不理解河安的管制以及相關的審查那我請問你啊你幾年前冒充清大河公教授那依我大中華民國律例冒充清大河公教授該當何罪是否會影響你在河山監督委員會的專業評估另外賀博士剛剛提到了深水池是否會造成潰堤我想必你是看到近來花蓮的災情想要來藉機發酵那我來"},{"start":7419.958,"end":7437.029,"text":"跟你科普一下我刚花了10秒钟的时间用手机找到了一份台电的报告台电说在日本福岛核灾后这个深水池有两座5万吨总共10万吨的深水池这10万吨的深水池呢"},{"start":7438.03,"end":7461.982,"text":"它其實蓋得相當好然後來我念一下這個報告它裡面有一段提到說這個設置兩座5萬噸深水池雖然說它比場區還要高但兩地之間有自然高地屏障隔離而且水池的西側地形低於水池基地所以地震的時候沒有因為深水池崩潰而造成池水淹入場區或土石流之疑慮"},{"start":7463.243,"end":7483.228,"text":"那我剛說了賀博士今天硬找這個題目想要想大家聯想到這個花蓮馬太安溪潰堤的可怕災情我剛說的深水池是10萬噸馬太安溪艷澀湖是9100萬噸潰堤之後到115萬噸也就是它總共流出了9000萬噸的水量"},{"start":7485.188,"end":7501.418,"text":"九千萬分之十萬九百分之一大概是千分之一賀博士我們學理工的要有點數字的概念你不要像當年2013年的時候你公佈一個什麼美國國家海洋大氣管理局NOAA什麼日本"},{"start":7502.138,"end":7520.11,"text":"核災輻射世界污染分佈圖整個太平洋無一倖免結果被我們抓包說那張圖的單位是cm公分你什麼時候看過輻射單位是公分我們學理工人竟然在這個公聽會上要秉持著科學專業另外就是郭玉琴委員我覺得我希望讚賞今天郭委員的發言"},{"start":7521.371,"end":7548.411,"text":"那刚刚提到了像是最终处置这个问题的确无论你反核或永核最终处置的选址都是我们要共同去面对也需要立法院来修法跟中央地方去协调的我非常非常赞同以及他提到了合融合合工人才以及我们技术不流失的这个部分我都非常同意委员以及他提到说我们不要把这些这个问题留给跨世代去解决那事实上在国际上"},{"start":7549.011,"end":7577.318,"text":"核废料它其实不是废料用过的核燃料90%以上都能够回收再处理提炼成新的核燃料只是说目前我们初阶钥矿所提炼的核燃料已经够用了成本相当的便宜可是像法国人他们把干式储存把用过核燃料放在郊区他们为了就是50年后100年后可以再拿出来提炼成新的燃料棒所以在外国核废料不是废料是下一代子孙的资源"},{"start":7577.558,"end":7605.945,"text":"如果你现在就把它给埋了其实在剥夺下一代子孙的资源这是一个世代不正义最后崔素欣秘书长又提到什么俄乌战争地缘政治风险等等的这个地方我们讲过很多次在河山公投辩论的时候你可以回去看我在讲林子伦那一段你们在讲什么多元分散在地民主的再生能源说战争风险你有没有想过这些再生能源在战争风险的时候是有多脆弱的"},{"start":7606.525,"end":7620.81,"text":"當然你會說那核電廠區啊那烏克蘭的核電廠啊你有沒有搞清楚那個烏克蘭的核電廠他們是在廠區外是在郊區的附近進行輕武器的交戰沒有任何一方使用了重武器去破壞核電廠"},{"start":7622.19,"end":7650.652,"text":"那事實上如果你懂得一些物理原理的話你應該要知道核電廠不會因為這樣子發生任何的事故以及我在核三公投辯論我講最後一點就是重點就是我們是要聽美國人公開警告的台灣廢核面臨的戰爭地緣政策的風險還是要聽你們這些反核洗地宅出賣台灣的這些洗地的言論謝謝好謝謝黃士修先生"},{"start":7653.629,"end":7682.242,"text":"我們現在請前行政院原能會放射性物質管理局的局長黃慶春先生發言謝謝主席各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好很高興今天有機會來參加這個公聽會因為我個人一直在放射性廢棄物管理的領域工作"},{"start":7689.31,"end":7714.7,"text":"麥克風就靠近麥克風因為我一直是在放射性廢棄物管理的領域工作所以我今天的花園會比較多著墨在放射性廢棄物的管理方面我首先要強調的因為聽了"},{"start":7718.066,"end":7732.526,"text":"台電的報告還有核安會的報告我發現事實上大家對繼續往核能這一條路走是已經很明確了那所以我想這裡就不需要再對這個"},{"start":7734.54,"end":7761.847,"text":"只提了太多的琢磨不過我要強調所以說這一次的核能的復興已經是全球第三次的核能復興這一次的核能復興的風潮是和以往不一樣的這個可以講是一個永不回頭的核能文明時代的開端另外剛才有人提到就是說"},{"start":7764.142,"end":7791.359,"text":"劣變核能到底還能夠用多久核融合的核能是不是要考慮這一點其實科技界已經有手著墨我現在給大家報告現在的看法是這樣就是現在還是劣變核能的主軸未來會劣變核能和融合核能並行"},{"start":7793.072,"end":7808.884,"text":"而且這個並行是永遠的,主要就是劣變核能所產生的氚,事實上是提供合融合核能的一個顏料,所以這一點不必要出於。"},{"start":7811.826,"end":7833.615,"text":"裂變核能和融合核能是會繼續往前走的所以現在我們去解決這個裂變核能的相關問題也是一個世代正義的問題這個是國際原子能總使在廢棄物管理方面的一個十大原則之一就是世代的正義的問題的解決"},{"start":7835.273,"end":7847.043,"text":"所以我這裡不需要再去強調美國要新增300個Gigawatt的這個事情因為這個是很明確的一個方向"},{"start":7850.117,"end":7872.903,"text":"那這個方向既然確定了那我們考慮的就是我們怎麼樣去銜接這個問題的發展怎麼往前邁進那這個在國內已經有很多專家寫者的主席的這個研究評估事實上有一條路非走不可的就是研議和重啟核電"},{"start":7874.969,"end":7899.077,"text":"為什麼因為新核能技術的發展現在還沒有完成佈置甚至監管的法規都還不完整是在佈置的前期而不是成熟的技術所以需要既有機子的銜接"},{"start":7900.171,"end":7928.8,"text":"那這個另外一個很重要的問題就是說這個銜接是對人才保存一個很重要的關鍵所以既然行政單位的報告都已經明確這個方向那我們現在為什麼還要有廚藝計畫所以我的建議第一個建議是政府現在應該明確的宣示"},{"start":7930.089,"end":7949.076,"text":"取消除疫計畫立法院也應該刪除機組拆除的相關預算這個現實就像美國總統川普一樣他上任以後就把原來拜登時候的增加200個計畫一下子就提高增加300個計畫"},{"start":7951.494,"end":7961.424,"text":"這個就是一個擔當我認為我們方向既然明確就應該要明確的宣示這個也是知性公開的一環"},{"start":7963.892,"end":7990.863,"text":"另外我也特別要在這裡對賴清德總統所提的所謂發展核能的三個條件做一些分析因為核能的發展既然是以後一個核能文明的開端這是不會回頭的燒炭 碳能源總有一天會耗盡所以依靠了"},{"start":7992.199,"end":8019.398,"text":"核能的重要性會越來越多所以這個方向如果是無疑的話那我們就要了解這個問題的解決途徑是怎麼樣子這是一個世代性的問題的解決而不是短期的障礙的排斥而已所以解決的眼光應該是要放眼的那對於"},{"start":8020.765,"end":8047.518,"text":"第一點 核安前無疑這畫面來講事實上世界核能運轉組織已經給我們很好的評比就是說台電的運轉績效一直是全世界Top四分之一的然後核電廠也沒有發生過任何三級以上的核安事件那核廢可處理"},{"start":8049.862,"end":8066.62,"text":"應該講的是可以良好的管理那這個我這個地方特別講出來我們對高放核廢和世界一樣都是目前採取儲存然後以後或許走封閉循環的路或許走直接儲置的路那這個都已經有方案"},{"start":8067.341,"end":8079.89,"text":"但是對低放的處理來講我們是全世界的典範大家看這一張圖這個是我們的檢會的成果從最高的12258桶4個機子到最後是只有170幾桶這是我們科技界和台電共同努力的結果"},{"start":8099.045,"end":8119.523,"text":"所以核會可處理,這個就像剛才黃書秀先生講的,這對科技界來講是一個很明確的事情。高階核會我們向美國雅卡山計畫的暫停,但美國為什麼還先不要增加300個機制呢?"},{"start":8123.628,"end":8146.162,"text":"因為他們確定這是可以解決的問題那他提出的就是什麼就是長期儲存還有他現在發展深孔齒制最終的目標是想要發展所謂畢氏循環何然要再用這個是一個世界的潮流也是必然會達成的一個目標因為時間的關係我"},{"start":8149.151,"end":8173.642,"text":"說好講到這裡謝謝大家好謝謝黃青慶春局長的請局長的這個發言謝謝那我們現在呢因為學者專家的跟委員的發言的都已經發言完畢我們現在請何安會的代表是主委嗎要來代表來回應謝謝"},{"start":8185.442,"end":8203.102,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進今天非常感謝大家渦輪出席也給予河岸會許多寶貴的建議與提醒河岸安全事項是要長期投入與社會信任的工作"},{"start":8204.226,"end":8233.687,"text":"核安会将继续秉持专业公正透明的原则让每一项管制作为都有据可查经得起考验有关今天委员所提核能安全核废料处理资讯公开以及与会专家提到的法治面资讯公开安全管制建议核安会会谨慎面对因应"},{"start":8236.021,"end":8265.513,"text":"未来 河岸会继续依循河岸无虞 河废有解社会共识三个大原则稳健推动各项工作同时加强与地方学界与社会各界的沟通让大家对河南安全更有信心再次感谢各位委员以先进的支持与指导河岸会一定会继续努力做到让国人安心 让社会安心谢谢大家"},{"start":8267.904,"end":8281.799,"text":"好謝謝何萬暉主委的報告但是主委想詢問一下你剛才說要完成但是有沒有個時間性尤其是目前已經有的這些資訊等等的是不是可以把頁面的更的聚焦化"},{"start":8282.885,"end":8294.722,"text":"你說那個審查時程是吧對 因為包括的是台電已經有說嘛包括的是目前的這個再運轉計畫或是說各核能電廠的現況評估報告已經"},{"start":8298.327,"end":8319.509,"text":"提出了曾請經濟部審理中那當然也許等一下會請經濟部這邊做一個回應但是我說如果零部報告竟然已經是完成了這部分是不是可以提供給提供就可以進速或等一下問台電跟經濟部台電的報告還沒送到我們這裡來如果送到我們這裡來我會很快就處理好不好"},{"start":8320.59,"end":8330.626,"text":"好OK好謝謝那現在是不是請經濟部或者是台電的人員要做一下簡短的回覆請這個市長"},{"start":8337.114,"end":8356.432,"text":"我想我们刚才本部的立场大概已经讲得很清楚基本上就是我们现在是有收到台电不过它只是一个核能就是核能电厂现况的一个报告我们现在在审理当中审理完了这个东西要等到"},{"start":8357.753,"end":8371.451,"text":"核安會的所有的一些相關的法規都已經很清楚了的時候我們才會去執行底下的一些步驟那不管無論如何我們都會去要求台電公司就是依法辦理如果法走到哪裡我們就會進行到哪裡以上 謝謝那請問一下"},{"start":8374.949,"end":8402.907,"text":"呃 這個司長這樣的台電的報告已經送到貴部當中10月中的時候才送到喔 OK喔 那預布多久會完成評估報告我們現在我們再請一些相關單位再表示意見看看我們也會跟台電再討論可能還有一些當中的內容我們要請台電公司再釐清的所以可能我們需要需要一些時間我們會盡快好 謝謝那現在請台電的副總經理要"},{"start":8404.81,"end":8416.892,"text":"要說一下嗎基本上台電會依法辦理然後會盡速完成相關的報告然後送個單位審查 以上好"},{"start":8418.542,"end":8434.351,"text":"那現在因為各個程序都已經完成那我進行的一個結論今天就首先謝謝各個專家學者還包括的一些NPO的代表還有行政官員的一個出席那我們對於"},{"start":8435.351,"end":8461.674,"text":"核能安全的相关议题特别在怎么样的对精进在它的透过法治化跟透明化的一个发展让这个对核能的议题甚至包括能源议题是非常重要的那我们也看到了一个很重要的情况是说各个专家学者凸显出来的是包括的是这些核安会的这些资讯公开透明其实不够的"},{"start":8462.675,"end":8486.973,"text":"那不夠的情況甚至就造成了一個很重要的信賴的問題包括是中央跟地方政府甚至包括民眾對於能源政策還有在整體的國家發展上面很大的一個漏洞那這個對國家的發展是不利的因此務必請核安會結合的是經濟部跟台電的把這些相關的資訊"},{"start":8488.194,"end":8509.494,"text":"提供出來只要是相關包括法制上面的部分都提出來的話該怎麼做就怎麼做不能夠再說說這是依法辦理那依法辦理如果法律上面有我甚至覺得我們未來可能要修法在一定期限之內因為美國的核安衛他們都可以再說一個重啟是大概從申請到最後的一個審查報告出來是兩年時間為什麼我們現在連時程都看不到"},{"start":8510.394,"end":8536.32,"text":"這樣的一個要求我覺得對民眾提出來並不過分對核安會的要求並不過分因為這是非常重要的當區熱電甚至剛才有專家學者是在說我們現在就是可能就RE100可是更重要的是台電事實上現在他都分到其他廠區的時候就可能有一些是因為他必須要符合整個產業鏈當中對於非碳能源的需求所以我想"},{"start":8537.06,"end":8555.755,"text":"這個部分和安會應該掌握了最新的趨勢那對於人才的培育當中也是很重要的我們就想把這樣的意見就請和安會能夠我做了這樣的總結把這個和安會就把這個意見呈現出來好那今天呢依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應與公聽會"},{"start":8559.858,"end":8578.055,"text":"終結後10日內依出席者所提供的正反意見提出公聽會的報告送交本院的全體委員及出席者第59條也規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案的參考"},{"start":8579.38,"end":8607.128,"text":"我們會把各位的發言意見及所有書面資料綜合歸納會編成冊送交本院全體委員及所有的與會貴賓最後非常感謝各位的出席今天的公聽會所提供的寶貴意見我們會審慎考量作為依法修法的一個依據謝謝各位會議結束"},{"start":8610.166,"end":8612.087,"text":"感谢观看,下次见!"}]}},{"id":"164739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5169ff566f7a41df23198a631d8f13201447ccc84a8d9a6111ab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:05:53 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經常需要的是即時完整的蒐證錄影跟錄音這早就已經是現代執法不可或缺的一環也是保障民眾權益跟執法人員自身安全的重要憑據那包含是像我們一般來講說這個警察他們也都有相關的這個器材要求那作為他們自己"},{"start":72.995,"end":97.181,"text":"不管是自我保護或者是日後他在蒐證上面或者是我們要釐清問題真相的時候非常好的一個平均那回顧呢在108年立法院決議要求配發全面每一人都要有一台的這個密錄器那多次的爭取相關的設備跟籌購但是呢每個人一台的這個理想似乎是還沒有達到"},{"start":97.961,"end":118.477,"text":"那去年發生的這個金門撞船案的時候呢海委會也承諾了114年完成密錄器百分之百變裝率的目標那這一次修正案裡面呢也是希望能夠回應現場同仁跟社會大眾的期待那最主要是呢一個固定的那一個呢是可能可以比較自由去運用的"},{"start":118.937,"end":142.163,"text":"就是說在船上裝固定式的監視的設備那個人的部分呢不管他是用攝影器材錄音或是其他科技工具都可以那用這樣的方式可以有效的防止先前相關的事件因為沒有及時收證那導致真相的爭議證據遺失的憾事重演所以我在這裡也強調一次喔"},{"start":142.563,"end":163.225,"text":"那因為我有看到這個海委會有提到就是說呢擔心說呢這個列出了相關的科技設備的話會不會有摯愛男性或是掛一漏萬的疑慮呢那我想我們這裡寫得非常清楚是不會有這種情況的簡單說就是船上一種的固定"},{"start":164.086,"end":190.391,"text":"器材監視設備以及相關人員是任選一種的不管是攝影器材、盾號、錄音器材或其他科技工具都可以所以呢要做什麼樣的科技工具選擇對於個人配置的這個部分其實是呈現開放式的那但是在每一台的這一個艦艇上面無論大小都應該要有"},{"start":190.851,"end":214.708,"text":"固定的監視設備否則的話像上一次的這個兩岸之間漁船的爭議那就沒有相關的這個設備可以做後續的這個釐清以至於當時我們有花了非常多的時間試圖去討論這個真相為何但我們卻沒有相關的影片可以作為佐證對我方來說是相當不利的"},{"start":215.268,"end":238.827,"text":"所以這項修法它不僅是補齊設備的空缺更是守護我們所有海巡人員的職安而且也保重民眾知情的權利確保執法公信力跟透明度讓每一分的執法過程都有據可查也讓不實指控跟執法疑慮是有跡可循的所以再一次希望各位委員跟海委會能夠支持本案 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51a8caeb25a9c52ac1b08d4a2736e01e2b47ccc84a8d9a6111a58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:08:26 - 09:10:42","影片長度":"00:02:16","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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明定責任並期望能有效降低破壞的風險 提升執法的威懾並強化政府在跨域 海洋 通訊 能源 船運等關鍵基礎設施之整體治理能力"},{"start":109.171,"end":134.558,"text":"那本席呢呼籲本立院呢因不分黨派早日將此修正案審查通過並完成三讀以盡速打造我國海嶺及管線保護之防線確保我國在數位經濟能源轉型離島連結及國防安全獲得穩定的保障最後呢本席必須要求行政單位未來應嚴格執法以章我國法紀並維護國家安全以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51a649797e53e83f11b08d4a2736e01e2bc51656f8b51a994ac0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:58:20 - 11:12:23","影片長度":"00:14:03","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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我們方向是這樣那我們會跟海巡署事實上是配合搭配因為他們這個海上作業是這個巡查是他們在處理那我們一旦他們也會針對船隻上"},{"start":150.891,"end":165.404,"text":"他要開AIS然後定位他然後看他的意圖等等一些情況那我們會把我們所有的管線的相關資料提供給海巡讓他們知道說這個地方事實上是我們很重要的一個區域是跨部會的一個"},{"start":167.506,"end":185.854,"text":"合縱聯合這是非常的重要所以我也謝謝部長剛剛我們在討論當中也就是針對今天所修的這個三個法本席提出三個修正動議更明確的來說明更明確的能夠讓執行者有所依歸也就是強化與"},{"start":188.216,"end":193.901,"text":"這個執行的這個效能來穩定能源的安全我們的目標就是以這兩個為基準是不是 是的那所以我們面對於整個海底設施的安全的威脅我們必須要設置可即使偵測異常"},{"start":207.273,"end":218.461,"text":"來作為預警的功能的防護系統 是不是如此是 我們 對 一旦有發生異樣的時候我們就會 資訊會回饋給我們我們馬上會跟海巡來通聯"},{"start":220.03,"end":239.64,"text":"這個非常的重要所以本行要說明的是說能源的安全我們不是只有事後有罰我們還要事前可防是不是如此是好那我們也希望再一次的說明到時候我們審查法案的時候那目標都一致那也希望得到"},{"start":240,"end":266.637,"text":"修正動議得到這三個得到行政部門以及國會同仁大家的支持接下來本席要跟你討論的是6月3號立法院通過了2028年無煤中火的這個案子那但是呢您經濟部一直說您有困難當時你不是部長因為你現在是部長所以本席要跟你討論這個問題你的理由是說中火的二期燃氣呢必須要55個月"},{"start":268.118,"end":276.604,"text":"但是事實上中國的一期它的燃氣兩部機組會在於2025跟2026年來完工裝置的容量是2600MW裝置的容量讓它足以太舊4.7部的燃煤機組那不僅如此到現在2024年中國減煤630萬公噸"},{"start":292.595,"end":310.07,"text":"2025年一起上線它可以再淘汰432.5萬公噸2026年它可以再增加民營的中央這一個燃氣的電廠跟中火燃氣一起的第二個機組它可以再減多少呢 636萬公噸"},{"start":313.684,"end":333.695,"text":"630 6萬公噸所以換句話說在2028年如果依照這樣的數字你們的規劃達成2028年中火無煤他是沒有問題的他是沒有問題的那請教部長因為你們現在一直以中火二期未完工來做藉口那民眾的聲音您聽到嗎請教部長"},{"start":335.816,"end":365.462,"text":"部長你先打一下吧因為總經理有跟我講因為你新任的部長啊如果真的可以達成我們當然是希望這樣但是中間這個數字是你們告訴我們的啊而且你們還告訴我們啊要找一天蒸氣你就要找一天撿煤啊找一天蒸氣找一天撿煤啊這是我們大家的共識啊對不對但是您剛才比如說您剛才提到的資料中加的部分基本上他已經不會做了就是說就解約了啦"},{"start":366.053,"end":373.496,"text":"所以說類似這樣的情況你們從頭到尾都跟我們說這個數字到現在潘朵拉的盒子打開你說宗家解約了對 因為他是民間的不是我們台電沒有人不知道他是民間的當時你們都把他的量數都計算在內啊你怎麼會現在才跟我們說這個潘朵拉的盒子掀開是這樣不可看呢難怪我們的民眾這麼痛苦啊"},{"start":394.785,"end":401.27,"text":"中部地區的民眾已經承受夠了他九月份的時候解約了九月份的時候解約那怎麼辦"},{"start":404.42,"end":426.536,"text":"所以我們就是盡量還是會趕啊什麼叫做盡量就是委員跟我們的想法一樣盡快把這個氣起來以後煤可以降下來這是我們共同的願望但是如果有實質上的困難政府口口聲聲告訴我們不管綠能不管這個天然氣我們都全力的支持你現在告訴我們這個"},{"start":428.257,"end":438.216,"text":"九月份的事件我都不忍心講出來那我們中部地區該怎麼辦你一直告訴我們說要爭氣就減煤我們全力的支持"},{"start":440.583,"end":457.037,"text":"那你們現在告訴我你現在說你們有困難那你的困難我告訴你們你至少要告訴我們你們要怎麼樣逐年減煤請告訴我時辰請告訴我時辰 我絕對不同意只有到2034年才無煤這個我們絕對抗議到底"},{"start":459.016,"end":483.541,"text":"跟委員報告整個電力系統的要穩定供電其實要考慮到供電的發電的高度跟我們運轉電廠的時間總經理這個是你們之前要爭氣你們都說過了如果你們沒有這些KPI你怎麼去執行呢你現在告訴我這些論述本席具體要求你告訴我"},{"start":484.341,"end":486.522,"text":"你們現在告訴我們是2031年2034年這個區間你才要5枚那你們這段時間都不減煤嗎那你告訴我沒關係你告訴我你告訴我你現在有困難你要怎麼樣逐年去減煤告訴我時程告訴我數據我們同意逐年減煤然後把數據會後會"},{"start":507.048,"end":515.211,"text":"你現在就可以告訴我啦你已經告訴我們2031年2034年我是不同意的當那個時間才無美你現在有增加這些設備本席剛剛已經告訴過你囉本席告訴過你囉你的2025、2026年完工運轉你可以增加2600MW你可以拆除了4.7部的燃煤機組耶"},{"start":532.717,"end":558.748,"text":"跟委員報告你已經失去餘名你說你的政績上路你就要給我們的煙囪這個這個這個摘除跟委員報告那你現在還要保留運轉你為什麼要這麼欺負我們中部人呢跟委員報告最近這幾天天氣比較涼我們中火本來是10部機組也其實都運轉到大概4部或5部的機組在運轉而已其實就是在照顧中部的"},{"start":558.848,"end":576.639,"text":"你能不能告訴我在你一起燃氣機組2025 2026陸續上線之後我們有所本有所本你們的預估就是如此你上線之後你要告訴我們你的逐步減煤時程"},{"start":577.912,"end":599.66,"text":"跟委員報告告訴我們怎麼樣減你會不會逐步去減電力的運轉跟調度是需要彈性的當然彈性所以我本期問你你會不會逐步逐年去減我們會逐步去做盡量去做但是我們不敢承諾一個數字給你們因為只要承諾一個數字我們就一定要努力必須要做到"},{"start":600.58,"end":620.325,"text":"全國的民眾聽到中部地區的民眾聽到政府告訴我們你蒸汽要給我們減煤你現在不敢告訴我時程不敢告訴我數字因為不敢說的原因是有太多的變數包括像再生能源上來的進度怎麼樣這個都影響到我們電力運轉的所以政府一場騙"},{"start":621.485,"end":628.65,"text":"沒有騙之前告訴我們你們的能源占比有多少你的綠能有多少你現在告訴我你什麼都沒有穩定供電還是我們第一要務那我們中部機器人的健康怎麼辦呢怎麼辦呢我至少一個卑微的要求我們不同意到2031到2034年才是無煤所以我們卑微的要求你告訴我逐年"},{"start":649.605,"end":671.53,"text":"你的減煤到底是多少這樣子的卑微的說的要求你都沒有幫我告訴我們數字台電一定會盡量去做到盡量做到但是總經理我對你是非常的尊敬因為你是非常務實但是你今天告訴我這些內容我真的是嚇一跳"},{"start":672.887,"end":690.875,"text":"原來之前所說的都是一場騙時間到了你這樣我只有卑微的要求你告訴我你逐年沒關係你逐年減煤的數量告訴本席可不可以總經理不是你不可以說數字我絕對不接受台電公司告訴我減煤的時程跟減煤的量數不可以坦白說數字"},{"start":703.444,"end":721.775,"text":"我們請我們經濟部還有我們台電我們找我們瓊益委員把這些我們可以瞭解的可以告知的這些相關的數字跟我們瓊益委員瞭解一下好不好好謝謝你多點時間可以將你的時程告訴本席你的時程跟你的減煤計畫"},{"start":723.663,"end":744.834,"text":"告訴我們不是找時間報告我具體要求在經濟委員會要求行政部門台電公司請你將你們的燃氣機組上了2025 2026你可以有2600MW的增加我沒有理由不要求你要減煤"},{"start":746.335,"end":750.018,"text":"你告訴我們正氣就要減煤我很卑微的要求行政部門請你把我的時間要求你逐年減煤的時間跟量數"},{"start":760.918,"end":776.144,"text":"給本席請委員給我們一點運轉的空間什麼時候告訴本席 沒關係你告訴我什麼時間你的時程跟你的減煤數量告訴本席我們下禮拜去找瓊英委員報告一下好不好不是不是 主席"},{"start":776.864,"end":787.911,"text":"我們質詢有要求時間的權利告訴我們內容我不敢你講不出來我沒有辦法要求你現在講但是我們還為選民負責我們替選民來問你什麼時間你告訴我們你們逐年遞減的時間跟"},{"start":794.054,"end":801.7,"text":"減煤的量數我們可以提出我們怎麼樣盡量做到的對你什麼時候可以告訴本席你給我一個時間就好你下個禮拜去找不是不是你告訴我你們去討論嘛"},{"start":809.266,"end":835.636,"text":"一個月的時間我們把我們盡量怎麼做到的方式或怎樣再跟委員就教就是我們會寫出書面報告來請你們好好告訴我們民眾需要指導中部地區民眾真的辛苦了而且我們有條件也有權利要求我們付出的夠了我們希望我們也全力支持政府的政策爭氣減煤要講到做到啊"},{"start":837.25,"end":837.591,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝趙偉的質詢謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝總經理 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時58分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，我們邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝部長。今天本席也提出修正動議，這個目的也就是在整個能源安全的事前防範、事後處罰的加重，希望能夠在能源方面可以達到安全，我希望得到行政部門的支持，重點在於除了我們事後的罰則之外，重要的現在是以故意達成傷害者，但是在整個過程當中如果行為者達成傷害，也必須要有所處置，你同不同意這樣的原則？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，現在即便他不是故意的也有罰則，就是過失的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常地感謝。今天本席提了3個修正動議的目的也就是這個精神，所以待會我們如果在逐條審查的時候，也敬請我們同仁以及行政部門來支持。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們真正目的也就是需要能夠真正的安全、防堵，這是非常重要。同時在電業法、天然氣事業法以及自來水法三法修法的當中，就是我們剛剛所說的，為了要加重對海底電纜輸氣與送水管線遭破壞的刑責。事後追懲雖然有遏止作用，但是缺乏即時的監測機制，一旦損傷，造成了全民斷電、斷氣、斷水的連鎖危機，有鑑於此，我們必須要建立什麼呢？要建立事前防護體系，讓能源輸配網具備預警以及快速應變能力。我們今天主要的修法目的，是不是以這樣子的精神為目標而執行呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：是的，我們方向是這樣。我們會跟海巡署配合及搭配，因為海上巡察作業是他們在處理，他們也會開啓AIS針對船隻來定位並觀察它的意圖等等，我們會把所有管線相關的資料提供給海巡單位，讓他們知道這個地方是很重要的區域。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是跨部會的合縱、聯合，這非常的重要，所以我也謝謝部長，在剛剛我們討論當中，也就是針對今天所修的這三個法，本席提出3個修正動議，更明確地說明、更明確地能夠讓執行者有所依歸，也就是強化執行的效能，來穩定能源的安全，我們的目標就是以這兩個為基準，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：面對整個海底設施的安全威脅，我們必須設置可即時偵測異常以發揮預警功能的防護系統，是不是如此？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，一旦有發生異樣的時候，資訊就會回饋給我們，我們馬上會跟海巡通聯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常的重要，所以本席要說明的是，能源的安全不只是事後有罰，還要事前可防，是不是如此？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也希望……再一次的說明，審查法案的時候目標都一致……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，目標一致。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也希望這三個修正動議得到行政部門以及各位同仁的支持。","接下來本席要跟你討論的是，6月3日立法院通過了2028年無煤中火的案子，但是經濟部一直說有困難，雖然當時你不是部長，但是現在你是部長，所以本席要跟你討論這個問題。你的理由是說中火的二期燃氣必須要55個月，但事實上中火一期的兩部燃氣機組會在2025年跟2026年完工，裝置的容量是2,600MW，足以汰舊4.7部燃煤機組。不僅如此，到2024年中火減煤630萬公噸，2025年一期上線可以再淘汰432.5萬公噸，2026年再增加民營中佳的燃氣電廠跟中火燃氣一期的第二個機組，可以再減多少呢？636萬公噸。所以換句話說，如果依照這樣的數字，規劃達成2028年無煤中火是沒有問題的。請教部長，因為你們現在一直以中火二期未完工作為藉口，那民眾的聲音，您聽到嗎？請教部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：是不是請總經理說明？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你先答一下吧！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為總經理有跟我講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你是新任的部長啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：如果真的可以達成，我們當然希望是這樣，但是中間的確有一些困難，像……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個數字是你們告訴我們的啊！而且你們還告訴我們，要早一天增氣就早一天減煤啊！這是我們大家的共識啊，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以我們一定要趕，但是您剛剛提到的資料關於中佳的部分，基本上它已經解約不會做了，所以類似這樣的情況，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們從頭到尾都跟我們說這個數字，到現在潘朵拉的盒子打開，你說中佳解約了！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，因為它是民間的，不是我們台電的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有人不知道它是民間的！當時你們把它的量數都計算在內啊！你怎麼會現在才跟我們說這個潘朵拉的盒子掀開是這樣不可看！難怪我們的民眾這麼痛苦，中部地區的民眾已經承受夠了！"],["龔部長明鑫：它在9月份解約了，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：9月份的時候解約！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼辦？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們還是會儘量趕啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫做儘量？"],["龔部長明鑫：委員跟我們的想法一樣，儘快把燃氣部分提升起來以後，燃煤部分可以降下來，這是我們共同的願望嘛！但是如果有實質上的困難……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府口口聲聲告訴我們，不管綠能、不管天然氣，我們都全力支持，你現在告訴我們這個9月份的事件，我都不忍心講出來，那中部地區該怎麼辦？你一直告訴我們，要增氣就減煤，我們全力地支持。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們也儘量往這個方向來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們現在告訴我，你說你們有困難，你們至少要告訴我們要怎麼樣逐年減煤？請告訴我時程！我絕對不同意到2034年才無煤，這個我們絕對抗議到底！"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，整個電力系統要穩定供電，其實要考慮到發電的高度跟運轉電廠的時間，所以一定要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總經理，這個是你們之前說要增氣，你們都說過了！如果你們沒有這些KPI，要怎麼去執行呢？你現在告訴我這些論述，本席具體要求，你們現在告訴我們是2031年、2034年這個區間才無煤，那你們在這段時間都不減煤嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們會儘量做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我沒關係，你告訴我現在有困難，你要怎麼樣逐年去減煤？告訴我時程！告訴我數據！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們同意逐年減煤，然後數據會後會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在就可以告訴我了啊！你已經告訴我們到2031年、2034年才無煤，這部分我是不同意的！"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到那個時間才無煤，但是你現在有增加這些設備，本席剛剛已經告訴過你了，在2025、2026年設備完工運轉後可以增加2,600MW，可以汰除了4.7部的燃煤機組。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經失信於民，你說增氣上路後就要把我們的煙囪摘除……"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你現在還要保留運轉，為什麼要這麼欺負我們中部人呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，最近這幾天天氣比較涼，我們中火本來是10部機組，目前大概是4部或5部在運轉而已，其實就是在照顧中部的空氣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你能不能告訴我……"],["王總經理耀庭：然後我們的天然氣機組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在你預期燃氣機組在2025、2026年陸續上線之後，我們有所本，你們的預估就是如此，上線之後你要告訴我們逐步減煤的時程。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們電力的運轉和調度……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴我們怎麼樣減？會不會逐步去減啦？"],["王總經理耀庭：電力的運轉跟調度是需要彈性的，所以我們不能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是彈性！所以本席問你，你會不會逐步逐年去減煤嘛！"],["王總經理耀庭：我們會逐年逐步儘量去做，但是我們不敢承諾一個數字給你們，因為只要承諾一個數字，我們就一定要戮力、必須要做到，所以我們儘量去減……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全國的民眾聽到！中部地區的民眾聽到！政府告訴我們，增氣要給我們減煤，你現在不敢告訴我時程、不敢告訴我數字！"],["王總經理耀庭：不敢說的原因是有太多的變數，包括像再生能源上來的進度怎麼樣，這個都影響到我們電力運轉的成效。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以政府一場騙！"],["王總經理耀庭：沒有騙，事實上只是因為我們需要這個韌性跟彈性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：之前告訴我們能源占比有多少？綠能有多少？你現在告訴我，你什麼都沒有！"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，穩定供電還是我們的第一要務。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我們中部地區的人的健康怎麼辦呢？怎麼辦呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：也會照顧啊，我們可以逐年減煤。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我至少有一個卑微的要求，我們不同意到2031、2034年才是無煤，所以我們卑微的要求你告訴我逐年減煤到底是多少？我們這樣子卑微的要求，你都沒有辦法告訴我們數字！"],["王總經理耀庭：台電一定會儘量去做到，但是沒有辦法每一個實際地去做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總經理，我對你是非常地尊敬，因為你是非常務實……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是你今天告訴我的這些內容，我真的是嚇一跳，原來之前所說的都是一場騙！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為2028的確是沒有辦法做到。"],["主席：時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我這樣卑微的要求，逐年減煤的數量告訴本席可不可以？"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們承諾會……"],["主席：部長、台電總經理再找瓊瓔委員溝通一下，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總經理，不是你不可以說數字！"],["主席：讓他更了解，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我絕對不接受台電公司告訴我減煤的時程跟減煤的量數不可以坦白說數字！"],["主席：請經濟部還有台電找瓊瓔委員，這些可以了解、可以告知的相關數字，讓我們瓊瓔委員了解一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你多久時間可以將時程告訴本席？你的時程跟你的減煤計畫告訴我們。"],["王總經理耀庭：我們找時間跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是找時間報告！我具體要求，在經濟委員會要求行政部門、台電公司，你們的燃氣機組在2025、2026年可以有2,600MW的容量增加，我沒有理由不要求你減煤。你告訴我們增氣就要減煤，我很卑微地要求行政部門，請把逐年減煤的時間跟數量給本席。"],["王總經理耀庭：請委員給我們一點運轉的空間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候告訴本席？沒關係，告訴我什麼時間，把你的時程跟你的減煤數量告訴本席。"],["主席：下個禮拜去找瓊瓔召委報告一下，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，主席，我們質詢有要求時間的權利，告訴我們內容。你講不出來，我沒有辦法要求你現在講，但是我們要為選民負責，我們替選民來問什麼時間，你告訴我們，你們逐年遞減的時間跟減煤的數量。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們可以提出我們怎麼樣儘量做到的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對、對、對，什麼時候可以告訴本席？"],["主席：召委，是不是下個禮拜去找您？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你給我一個時間就好。"],["主席：你下個禮拜去找召委，我們再正式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，你告訴我，你們去討論嘛。"],["龔部長明鑫：一個月的時間，我們把我們儘量怎麼做到的方式或怎樣再跟委員就教，我們會寫書面報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你們好好告訴我們，民眾需要知道，中部地區的民眾真的辛苦了，而且我們有條件也有權力要求，我們付出的夠了。我們希望、我們也全力支持政府的政策「增氣減煤」，要講到做到啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝召委的質詢。謝謝部長、謝謝總經理。我們現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","現在請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的"},{"start":180.748,"end":197.12,"text":"會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":197.94,"end":219.937,"text":"我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬 因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條"},{"start":223.932,"end":239.546,"text":"從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到"},{"start":240.907,"end":267.939,"text":"這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎"},{"start":269.571,"end":291.083,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對 你法律裡面明明就規定"},{"start":296.086,"end":322.889,"text":"實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛 一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛"},{"start":324.608,"end":351.681,"text":"任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下 緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員 科長 客員 記錄人員都要申請許可嗎"},{"start":354.679,"end":371.338,"text":"我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請"},{"start":372.657,"end":401.703,"text":"你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長 系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管"},{"start":402.799,"end":407.937,"text":"你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦 主要是要申請的問題"},{"start":410.879,"end":434.191,"text":"剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長"},{"start":435.912,"end":446.023,"text":"教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎"},{"start":448.476,"end":468.496,"text":"一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利"},{"start":471.069,"end":474.19,"text":"這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了"},{"start":487.253,"end":504.473,"text":"他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定"},{"start":505.114,"end":531.919,"text":"如果這樣的話 人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道 我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天 我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處"},{"start":534.554,"end":561.406,"text":"他如果不涉及到任 我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們"},{"start":562.026,"end":589.234,"text":"真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例"},{"start":590.342,"end":606.061,"text":"能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊"},{"start":610.021,"end":631.829,"text":"這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會"},{"start":632.708,"end":650.161,"text":"我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額"},{"start":652.602,"end":671.4,"text":"這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取"},{"start":675.063,"end":691.192,"text":"身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任"},{"start":692.318,"end":711.051,"text":"我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是 那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面"},{"start":713.467,"end":735.618,"text":"他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循"},{"start":737.284,"end":762.094,"text":"人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心"},{"start":763.874,"end":790.612,"text":"你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的"},{"start":792.844,"end":808.594,"text":"你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時57分）謝謝主席，莊召委辛苦了，身體有恙，但還是非常的敬業，開刀後第一天馬上就來我們公聽會簽到，然後今天又主持會議，真的非常的佩服，向您致敬。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要先請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。互相稱讚就有好處。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長早。剛剛吳思瑤委員很擔心這次軍公教人員退休金停砍的修法會影響到現職人員的退休金保障，我想請問人事長，您會有這樣的擔憂嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，我覺得當初設計年改本來就是在整個政府財政穩定的基礎底下，然後讓我們的財政更加永續，因為大家也都知道……"],["翁委員曉玲：您只要很簡單、很簡短的回答我，你會擔心現職人員會領不到退休金嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然大家會有這種疑慮啦，因為現在每一年的年金……"],["翁委員曉玲：這樣子喔？如果你擔心的話，你會同意把你的退休金的一部分撥給現職人員嗎？您什麼時候要退休？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我隨時都可以退休。"],["翁委員曉玲：隨時都可以退休？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：隨時可以退休。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您是很願意奉獻您的退休金去給現職人員？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我們在政府機關服務，本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，非常佩服人事長的大器，您很願意把您的退休金中滿大一部分貢獻給現職人員。","我們接下來討論另外一個問題，最近行政院公布了「行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關（構）學校公務人員違法（規）赴陸建議懲處原則」，包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則，請問這份規則是出自人事總處之手嗎？這個規定是你們所草擬的嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是陸委會開會決定了，我們來發文。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們發文，所以裡面的所有建議事項都是你們寫的，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：條文整個都是由陸委會拍板確定，然後我們再轉給所有……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以包含什麼樣的情況要記一個過或者記兩個過等等的，這些都是陸委會決定的，跟你們無關，你們只是配合發文，是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：陸委會政策決定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼叫政策決定？這份是誰擬的嘛？當時是誰提出來的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是按照陸委會的發文，我們轉給所有的行政機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以這個就不是出自於人總之手，我只是要確定這件事情，這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是陸委會寫的，轉給我們，我們再轉給……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，瞭解。所以站在人總的立場，你們就照單全收都沒有去反映？這樣子的建議懲處原則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則，請問這樣一個建議懲處原則的法律依據在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有找相關政府機關的同仁來表示過意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以呢？認為沒有違法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會最後的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了？是陸委會的人事總處？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不是下屬，因為這是政府機關之間分工的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是問題是這很明顯已經違反法律保留原則了！我們看一下兩岸人民關係條例第九條，第九條從第三項到第五項，我在螢幕上列了第三項和第四項，第三項規定得非常清楚：「……簡任第十職等及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全、利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區，不在此限……。」就是他們不用每次去大陸都必須申請許可。第四項則規定，具有該項所列身分的人赴大陸地區和港澳才必須經過申請。可是你們現在的建議懲處原則是無差別耶！未來公務員即便是第一職等、第二職等，都要受到這樣的規範，合理嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員說明一下，整個思考邏輯就是，你沒有違規，就不會有懲處的問題，而不是不能去的問題；你如果都按照遊戲規則……"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼叫做違規？您看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思？現在只是說，我要去之前要先拿到那個許可，對不對？法律裡面明明就規定第十職等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去，去了大陸之後，他有沒有洩漏國家機密、有沒有違反其他相關法規，這是另外依照其他法律來處理，這跟進去要申請許可是兩件事啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一個是進去、一個是回來，要進去有些是要到內政部申請、有些是要經過陸委會……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的意思……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還有主管機關的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼！第十職等及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全、利益或機密之公務員及警察人員是排除在外的，他們不需要去申請許可，就可以進入大陸地區，你現在是認為以後一般的股員、科長、課員、記錄人員都要申請許可嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員稍微說明一下，兩岸人民關係條例有關第十一職等以上的事情是陸委會規範的，第十一職等以下的又授權移民署去訂定一些規範，事實上只要進去，原則上都要申請。"],["翁委員曉玲：你告訴我是根據哪一條需要申請！所以現在你們的概念就是，只要是進入到公務機關的所有公務人員都會涉及國家安全、利益或機密，所以全部都要有一併的管制，甚至連公立學校具有行政職務的校長、院長、系所主管，乃至於什麼研究中心主任，全部都要列管。你們現在的規定就是這樣啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是要申請啦，主要是要申請的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：但這是不需要申請……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：剛才委員提到的學校部分是兼行政職的才需要，沒有兼行政職的就不需要。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我告訴你這會發生什麼問題好嗎？你現在不管是大學、中學、小學，未來沒有老師、教授願意兼行政職，很快就會找不到人願意當系主任，在小學裡面也找不到人願意當組長或教務主任，沒有人願意去兼行政職了！就您的觀點，您認為一個小學的體育組長會涉及什麼國家機密嗎？一個音樂科的主任或老師會涉及什麼樣的國家機密嗎？我覺得人事長，您今天作為行政院人事行政總處的最高長官，應該要勇於捍衛所有公務員的權利啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個是責無旁貸……"],["翁委員曉玲：這不是講說你配合陸委會，陸委會它……我要講，陸委會它本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關，如果有人要去大陸的時候，它要配合去辦理，它不是你……怎麼現在變成它的爪牙了！它要怎樣去限制、怎麼管制……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員你不要說……因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有很明確的分工，這個法的主管機關就是陸委會，所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範，我們必須follow它的規定。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果這樣的話，人事總處的法務處可以退掉了啦！我回去會去查……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們沒有法務處、我們沒有法務處啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：人總掌管人事法規，你們都沒有責任嗎？人事長今天說這樣的話，真的讓我非常心寒！你說依據考績法怎麼處罰，我看了半天考績法的規定，你是依照考績法哪個規定可以去做這樣的懲處？他如果不涉及……我就講嘛！一個很低階的警察，或者是一個小學老師可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長、兼了某一個職務，或者是一個大學教授，他不過是兼了一個系所的主管，現在連他們要去大陸地區，都要受到這樣嚴格的規定，這基本上是很不合理的！我很希望你們真的要好好地去檢討，對於你們懈怠自己的職責，我也會反映在你們這次的預算上面。","我還要很快地問另外一個問題，就是我們看到現在行政院一些機關的員額編制，發現聘用人員都明顯超過你們之前所講的預算員額的5%，對於要怎麼讓這些聘用人員的進用比率下降，你們有沒有什麼看法？像文化部、環境部，聘用人員的比率都明顯超高，文化部是26%，環境部是百分之十一點多，都明顯高過行政院自己公布的5%。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個部分在我們的報告裡面也有初步呈現，這些聘用比例偏高的，本來就是因為它的專業性，我們沒辦法從考試直接進用，所以我們會讓它的聘用員額多一點；它不是一個普遍現象，它是少數、集中在某些部會。"],["翁委員曉玲：請人總提供給我一份資料，讓我們看看這是不是普遍現象。我的PPT只是列舉一些機關，其實很多機關的聘用員額都已經超過你們所定的5%。如果真的有人員的需要，為什麼不直接增加機關編制內的員額？這個部分我要求人事長在一個禮拜內提供一份報告給我，就是有關現在各機關聘用員額的進用比率，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：麻煩提供給我。","還有一個問題，就是之前有人在講公教人員有沒有領用大陸的身分證或在大陸地區設有戶籍等等要具結，我還記得當時也是在這個質詢臺上問了人事長，如果公教人員沒有具結，你們會不會去追究他們的責任？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們本來就不會追究啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：本來就不會追究？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：上次有答復委員，就是不會追究啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：那為什麼現在又說，如果不寫具結書的話，他未來可能無法升遷、調任？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是適用在整個公務員服務法的規範裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：他不簽有違反什麼公務人員法規嗎？他有因此違反公務員服務法的哪個規定嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在委員所指教的部分是屬於陸委會，它是兩岸人民條例的規範，所以我們也必須遵循。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我還在講，您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總處的長官，現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都聽陸委會的！陸委會做的一些不合理的要求，你們也都完全配合！你知道你們這樣子的做法傷了多少公教人員的心嗎？你有沒有考慮到它的影響效果會是什麼？以後沒有人……尤其是在一般學校裡面，以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦！我想這件事情教育部那邊應該很清楚。人事長，你這裡也很清楚，很多公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接主管職，不管他是小主管、中主管、大主管，他不願意去兼主管職的，你們搞得這麼嚴格，以後真是整個機關裡面沒有任何人要負擔更重要的公務，還有教育的責任，所以我希望你們回去檢討，以上，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來沈發惠委員改書面。","是不是請翁召委先上來？我把他問完好了。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：現在先進行會議程序的宣告：等會在莊瑞雄委員發言完之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","接下來請莊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林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- 10:58:06","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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包括有"},{"start":151.545,"end":157.81,"text":"那我問一下剛剛提到的包括副市長提到的這些斷纜的事件平均每年大概七到八件"},{"start":160.873,"end":183.872,"text":"剛剛有提到我們今年大概是有5件左右今年5件所以它的狀況跟往年是差不多的是差不多但是我們在強度方面事實上海巡在這一部分的應鎖都是第一時間就去做馬上的一個查詢包括有關雷達的回放這個我們都及時掌握那我來問兩位像這個"},{"start":187.767,"end":213.822,"text":"順興39的部分這樣的他的線路這樣子跑這是一個正常的狀況嗎委員 巴委員因為這個要從個案事實認定我先講一下剛才委員指導的是1月3號那今年2月25號在台南外海我們當場扣留鴻泰58號他是多個級的那他是現在中華電信所有船舶有20公尺長"},{"start":215.163,"end":233.577,"text":"航速第五節在海南電纜左右一公里如果他有開AIS那我們有自動告急系統中華電信公司會自動傳給船上那這艘後船他也有海圖所以他知道海底電纜在哪裡他也有應該可以看到會告急他要趕快離開"},{"start":235.618,"end":256.669,"text":"所以如果我們認定他剛好跟我們海底電纜的路線是很像的時候我們就會依照他AIS的狀況我們會通報他了這個時候他會還中華電信電信組織機關會第一時間直接傳到船上請他趕快離開再不走的話會通知我們那我們會過去會超前部署然後我們雷達也可以看"},{"start":257.409,"end":281.37,"text":"那過去之後就這個案子就是我們下令他馬上起矛離開他看到我們下令起矛下令之後他就起矛當場就拉斷所以當場就拉斷掉了所以這個已經這已經等於發生了嘛所以未來如果我們在我們的修法更強化的話我們就有更強的一個公權力是 為什麼呢 跟委員報告這個這次七法最重要的原因就是第一個 嚴刑重罰"},{"start":282.699,"end":310.937,"text":"除了故意犯以外如果涉及到國家安全跟社會安定的話甚至可以到十年以下有期徒刑罰金是照五千萬就是我們過失也處理是然後另外如果你又涉及到故意的話有十年以下的這個等於是一個重判涉及到國家安全然後船舶不問犯罪人所有比照土石採取直接沒入嗎直接沒入最重要第二點就是我們可以源頭管理那很多船舶東北季風都在我們外海滯留"},{"start":312.618,"end":335.115,"text":"他可能是要等整補可能是要等載貨不管怎樣他就要降低成本在我們外海滯留那我們驅離之後我們要法格法 驅而復返那現在這個企劃中交通部 航港局有修正川普法8961他可以處罰三萬以上一千萬以下划完這行政法只要他不出去他沒有正常使用AS就可以處罰"},{"start":335.976,"end":354.134,"text":"第三個最重要就是可以我們精準司法因為要求他要開AS若不開的話這個我們會處罰還有最重要最重要如果在滯留我們驅離他又互返我們現在跟航空局有共識也公告了20小時內驅離兩次的話以後就禁止他入港"},{"start":354.514,"end":371.673,"text":"所以這些都是很重要的政策因為你用AIS我們就可以定位出它的位置在哪邊那你的位置的移動如果是跟我們的電纜是密切相關的我合理懷疑你就是要來破壞我的電纜所以我就可以採取強硬的措施甚至我驅趕你你有任何其他的部分我甚至於未來讓你不能夠進到我的崗裡"},{"start":372.293,"end":394.666,"text":"換句話說可以降低大無的降低岸船系統就是我們現在所有的作為都是讓他們沒有降低掉他的那個啦因為當他要付出刑罰當他要付出很高的行政罰當他要甚至可能被扣留船隻的時候從過去那個倒採砂石的經驗我們就可以知道海砂的經驗知道當你用一些強硬的措施下去的時候他的利潤遠遠不及於他所可能"},{"start":395.306,"end":410.613,"text":"導致的損失的時候他就不會去做這個行為甚至要可能被扣留有刑法的問題他就更不會犯了所以我覺得這些都是在保護我們國家安全重要的我們希望朝野一起來支持那這個其實也不只是台灣我看到斯洛伐克的國防部長前幾天來也講到"},{"start":411.874,"end":434.316,"text":"海底電纜已經成為是一個看不見的戰爭特別是台灣周邊是台灣是海島啦周邊出去都是靠這些電纜的連結跟權勢的連結所以這更重要啦我們希望大家一起來盡快的完成這樣的修法啦一起來守護台灣的國家的安全啦謝謝委員我們全力支持啦再來我先請教一下經濟部長是不是也請教一下好不好"},{"start":435.217,"end":442.269,"text":"我們現在這個產業的部分我們的海欄的維修跟海欄的這些工有沒有相關的強化我們這個產業的一個空間"},{"start":444.963,"end":464.724,"text":"我們現在幾乎很多的海欄船大概都是其他國家所有的我們本身在這一塊其實並不強的我也希望未來進一步整理來思考讓我們自己的海欄的維修海欄的產業鏈是能夠更加的強化的這個也許跟交通部跟中華電信等等相關的可以做更多的討論好不好 這請部長在省鎮來討論"},{"start":465.725,"end":481.912,"text":"好最後一點點時間我問一下這一次的高雄的就是非洲豬瘟台中非洲豬瘟跑到高雄去但是後來這個大榮的業者他包括說他只有小車才有GPS包括拖了一個半小時才說了大貨車位置包括甚至宣稱內容"},{"start":483.653,"end":503.843,"text":"等等還有包括甚至裡面的顯然在物流這一塊裡面是有問題的啦我也希望未來在這個管理的部分我希望經濟部跟交通部在研議啦對於特別現在越來越多這種物流倉儲的一些管理我希望能夠做更多一些強化不然他覺得我不交代"},{"start":504.563,"end":520.206,"text":"你也對我無可奈何我不去交代我到底有什麼東西 去了哪裡顯然你無可奈何那這樣對於未來我們在防疫甚至很多重要的一些狀況的時候我們其實這個部分部長有沒有一些強化的一些措施這個部分我們跟交通部會"},{"start":521.967,"end":549.113,"text":"就像委員指導的我們會跟他們加強聯繫因為很多都是透過物流路上跑的是他們管那我們會把它結合起來單產業面上面我希望整體來讓這些納入到耕土管特別是現在我們看到家裡大榮甚至各界都懷疑他有港種資在掌握的那當這些我們的物流這些所有的是我們如果往不好的方向去思考的時候那當這些重要的物流都掌握在"},{"start":549.873,"end":569.389,"text":"不是我們可掌控的手裡的時候它另外也會形成另外一個國安上的一個盲點跟漏洞所以我還希望這一塊要確實用更強的一些去約束它就是一旦有狀況的時候它必須要如實地依照國家的一些要求去包括交出正確的資訊包括做出正確的一些處置"},{"start":570.509,"end":595.114,"text":"這一塊我希望國安局也整體要配合進來跟經濟部跟交通部一起來思考把這個要建立起來不然未來更多類似這樣的事件今天是豬肉非洲豬瘟 未來其他事件的時候如果這些物流業者並不願意配合國家的一些整體的要求跟這個的話那有可能要形成另外一個漏洞好不好請部長再跟交通部跟國安局這邊再來研議好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時48分）謝謝召委。先請海巡署謝副署長跟國安局陳處長。"],["主席：請謝副署長、陳處長，謝謝。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教謝副署長。主委昨天發文表示，又有漁船來到，我們擔心對海纜造成影響而驅離。我請問一下海巡署，從今年以來，類似這樣的案件到底有多少件？"],["謝副署長慶欽：最近5年，從109年到113年，總共有40件，平均每年大概8件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年多少件？"],["謝副署長慶欽：今年到現在為止有5件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年5件？"],["謝副署長慶欽：對，五件，包括宏泰、包括順興，也有大陸漁船，我們都有函送地檢署。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這些都函送了？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是、是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：像盜砂的部分呢？"],["謝副署長慶欽：盜砂的話，111年還有扣留兩艘，之後就沒有了。112年是零星在澎湖跟馬祖出現，有一、兩艘航經的被我們驅離，換句話說，從112年到現在就沒有盜砂。跟委員報告，111年有非常多中國大陸的砂石船，尤其馬祖，所以我們非常感謝立法院，因為立法院修正了土石採取法、專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法，所以不管船舶是不是犯罪所有人所有一概沒入……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有產生效用？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有產生效用。"],["賴委員瑞隆：很好，這個其實我也有提案。"],["謝副署長慶欽：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想我們目的就是要產生嚇阻力，也希望這次的海纜七法也一樣能有這樣的效益。","我問一下國安局陳處長。"],["陳處長：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一段時間以來，就國安局掌握的船舶事件與數量，陳處長要不要也講一下？"],["陳處長：報告委員，有關在我們海域周遭造成威脅的船舶問題，事實上我們有相關預警或海巡署的即時應處，基本上都有運作的機制。所以事件一發生時，我們通常會在第一時間就保持通報與應處，這是我們目前……"],["賴委員瑞隆：國安局有充分掌握這些狀況？"],["陳處長：報告，有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下。我剛剛提到的，包括副署長提到的斷纜事件，平均每年大概7到8件？"],["陳處長：剛剛有提到，今年大概有5件左右。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年5件？"],["陳處長：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年5件，所以狀況跟往年差不多？"],["陳處長：是差不多。但在強度方面，事實上海巡都在第一時間應處，也馬上查處，包括雷達的回防，這些我們都即時掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請教兩位，像順興39，它的線路這樣子跑，這是一個正常的狀況嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，這要就個案的事實認定起。我先講一下，剛才委員指導的案件是在1月3號，今年2月25號在臺南外海我們當場扣留了宏泰58，它是多哥籍的。現在船舶只要有20公尺長，航速低於5節，在海纜左右1公里徘徊的，如果它有開AIS，我們有自動告警系統，中華電信公司會自動傳給船上，這艘貨船也有海圖，所以它知道海底電纜在哪裡，也應該可以看到告警它要趕快離開，結果它沒有開AIS……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果我們認定它剛好跟我們海底電纜的路線是很像的時候，我們就會依照它AIS的狀況，通報它了啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個時候中華電信、電信主管機關會第一時間直接傳到船上，請它趕快離開，再不走的話會通知我們，我們會過去、會超前部署，然後我們雷達也可以看，過去之後……就這個案子我們下令它馬上起錨離開，它看到我們下令之後就起錨，當場就拉斷。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以當場就拉斷掉了？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個已經發生了嘛！所以未來如果修法更強化的話，我們就有更強的公權力。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，為什麼呢？跟委員報告，這次七法最重要的原因，第一個，嚴刑重罰，除了故意犯以外，如果涉及到國家安全跟社會安定的話，甚至可以到十年以下有期徒刑，罰金是到五千萬。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們過失也處理啦！另外，如果又涉及到故意的話，有十年以下的重判。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，這涉及到國家安全。然後船舶，不問犯罪人所有與否，比照土石採取法……"],["賴委員瑞隆：直接沒入嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：直接沒入。最重要第二點就是我們可以源頭管理，很多船舶東北季風都在我們外海滯留，它可能是要等整補、可能是要等載貨，不管怎樣它就要降低本在我們外海滯留，那我們驅離之後，沒有法可罰，驅而復返。現在七法中，交通部航港局有修正船舶法第八十九條之一，可以處罰三萬以上一千萬以下罰鍰，這是行政罰，只要它不出去、沒有正常使用AIS就可以處罰。第三個，最重要就是我們可以精準執法，因為要求它要開AIS，如果不開的話，我們會處罰。還有最重要、最重要，如果再滯留，我們驅離它又復返，我們現在跟航港局有共識，也公告了，20小時內驅離兩次的話，以後就禁止它入港。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這些都是很重要的政策啦！因為用AIS，我們就可以定位出它的位置在哪邊，位置的移動如果跟我們電纜是密切相關的，合理懷疑它就是要來破壞我們的電纜，所以我們就可以採取強硬的措施。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是的，最重要是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至我驅趕你，你有任何其他的部分，我甚至於未來讓你不能夠進到我的港裡面。"],["謝副署長慶欽：換句話說，可以大幅地降低岸傳系統的干擾。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是我們現在所有的作為沒有讓他們沒有將低掉……因為當它要付出刑罰、付出很高的行政罰，甚至可能要被扣留船隻的時候，從過去盜採砂石的經驗，我們就可以知道當你用一些強硬的措施下去，它的利潤遠遠不及於所可能導致損失的時候，它就不會去做這個行為，甚至有可能被扣留、有刑罰的問題，它就更不會犯了，所以我覺得這些都是在保護我們國家安全，我們也希望朝野一起來支持。這個其實也不只是臺灣，我看到斯洛伐克的國防部長前幾天來也講到，海底電纜已經成為一個看不見的戰爭，特別是臺灣周邊是海，臺灣是海島啦！周邊出去都是靠這些電纜的連結，跟全世界的連結，所以這更重要了，我們希望大家一起儘快完成這樣的修法，一起來守護臺灣的國家安全。"],["謝副署長慶欽：謝謝委員，我們全力以赴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝，我們全力支持啦！再來我請教一下經濟部長，現在產業的部分，我們海纜的維修跟海纜的工程有沒有相關強化這個產業的空間？我們現在幾乎很多的海纜船大概都是其他國家所有的，我們本身在這一塊其實並不強，我也希望未來經濟部整體來思考，讓我們自己海纜的維修、海纜的產業鏈能夠更加強化，這個也許跟交通部、跟中華電信等等相關的可以做更多的討論，好不好？請部長再審慎來討論。"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一點點時間，我問一下，這一次臺中非洲豬瘟跑到高雄去，但是後來大榮的業者說它只有小車才有GPS，拖了一個半小時才說明大貨車位置，甚至宣稱內容等等，還有包括裡面的物品，顯然在物流這一塊裡面是有問題的啦！未來在管理的部分，我希望經濟部跟交通部再研議，特別對於現在越來越多這種物流倉儲的管理，我希望能夠做更多的強化，不然它覺得即使不交代也對它無可奈何，它不交代到底有什麼東西、去了哪裡，顯然我們也無可奈何，這樣對於未來我們在防疫，甚至很多重要的狀況的時候，我們其實……這個部分，部長有沒有一些強化的措施？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，這個部分就像委員指導的，我們會跟交通部加強聯繫。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，因為很多都是透過物流……"],["龔部長明鑫：倉儲是我們管，路上跑的是他們管，我們會把它結合起來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是產業面上面，我希望整體讓這些納入到……特別是現在我們看到嘉里大榮，甚至各界都懷疑它有港中資在掌握，當這些物流是往不好的方向去思考的時候，當這些重要的物流不是可以掌握在我們手裡的時候，也會形成另外一個國安上的盲點跟漏洞。所以我還是希望這一塊要確實用更強的措施去約束它，就是一旦有狀況的時候，它必須要如實地依照國家的要求，包括交出正確的資訊、包括做出正確的處置，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們正在釐清。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一塊我希望國安局也整體要配合，進來跟經濟部、交通部一起來思考，要把這個建立起來，不然未來更多類似這樣的事件，今天是豬肉非洲豬瘟，未來其他事件的時候，如果這些物流業者並不願意配合國家的整體要求的話，有可能還會形成另外一個漏洞，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，這個我們正在處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請部長再跟交通部和國安局來研議啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員的質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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辛苦的召委感謝 請任市長請任市長"},{"start":22.677,"end":48.721,"text":"委員長今天有兩個主題跟您交換一下意見非常多委員都關心身心調試假終於10月10日上路了作為在立法院一路催生身心調試假的立委我從教育部門推到公務部門當然下一個努力我們希望進入民間的企業那這個制度現在現行是併入試假我當然認為先求有再求好"},{"start":49.554,"end":65.947,"text":"那我也非常鼓勵也要拜託勇敢的去宣傳我們告訴所有的公務同仁不要讓自己的權利睡著了請了身心調試假大家要記得主觀管門不能夠對請身心調試假"},{"start":67.248,"end":90.09,"text":"的同仁們貼上任何歧視性的標籤反而應當要給更多的關懷這就是我們為什麼設置了身心調適價這個進步性的新價別那當然從公部門推到私部門一向以來都是我們在各項權益扶植的一個路徑"},{"start":90.951,"end":108.157,"text":"公部門先行推廣到私部門下業我們自己來做好的典範但是呢我看到這個消息跟新聞我真的是很開心因為育嬰留停假明年要上路優先勞動部啟動了"},{"start":111.178,"end":134.489,"text":"勞動部推動育嬰留庭以日來申請家庭照顧可以以小時來機動彈性的幫助這些家裡有小朋友的這些年輕爸媽們這個制度勞動部先行了開始從企業來推我們公部門是不是全面適用"},{"start":137.868,"end":155.758,"text":"軍公教全面適用軍公教都沒有任何限制我本來就已經擺時間的方式在那現在新制以日跟時更激動更彈性更貼心軍公教全面民間有的公部門也可以推嘛 對不對"},{"start":156.258,"end":160.18,"text":"事實上就是公家計劃先推然後民間再跟著我們這樣推是這樣嗎我們是走到前面 勞動再跟過來如果是這樣 我們就要宣傳到大陸了因為這個大新聞是我們勞動部在前幾個禮拜在院會的通過那我關心到我們的卓院長也特別在院會上說"},{"start":182.23,"end":195.9,"text":"我們給這個福利給年輕爸媽在私部門而軍公教也一體試用那很好公司部門一起來做我們讓制度更優化讓育嬰留停都能夠更友善下一頁"},{"start":197.501,"end":213.78,"text":"昨天立法院有一個好消息就是司法法治委員會我們修正的考積法昨天三讀通過了透過這個考積法的三讀通過我們可以讓公務員的育兒這個育嬰留庭不會再延緩"},{"start":215.188,"end":242.061,"text":"延後他的升遷的機會這是一個進步性的立法我們終止制度性的歧視讓照顧不再是懲罰昨天通過了也謝謝人事總處謝謝我們司法法制委員一起把制度真的更人性但是法也修了這種彈性的價別也給了您認為對於現在育嬰留庭在公部門的執行您滿意嗎"},{"start":244.443,"end":271.343,"text":"我覺得各個公務機關他的法徵的法律的尊崇事實上都非常的到位可是我覺得我們還有一個要努力的就是要加強先導推廣因為每一個機關他對這樣一個新措施的一個認知可能會有一些差異性像以前我在財政部服務的時候我有一個同仁三年生了兩個小孩"},{"start":272.003,"end":284.911,"text":"那就是一因留庭嘛那回來 隔年我就把他升為課長那很好不會因為他一因留庭而給予他歧視性的對待就看能力 看表現嘛 對不對那下一頁"},{"start":287.625,"end":316.684,"text":"育嬰留庭也要性別平權我們要加強宣導讓大家有假就可以請大家也敢請制度上不會有歧視不會影響到他的升遷不會影響他的考積那我今天跟您探討性別平權男性公務員的育嬰留庭的優化制度這幾年來我們一再的推進譬如說110年起雙方就是男女雙方爸媽都可以申請育嬰留庭這是一個進步"},{"start":318.025,"end":339.973,"text":"然後呢在111年我們開始將育嬰留庭的津貼從六成薪到八成薪這也是一個大躍進大家覺得啊 這樣我願意不會影響我的收入太多有一些起碼的保障所以確實我比較起來上路四年的新的優化的制度男性育嬰留庭的人數從2322增加到3633成長了55.79%"},{"start":346.716,"end":355.566,"text":"制度更進步男性也勇於育嬰留庭照顧小孩不再是只有女人的事數字看起來成長55.79真漂亮阿有教我"},{"start":361.76,"end":388.801,"text":"其實我還要報告一件事手裡是這幾檔男生請這是你們今天報告裡面的手裡議因留庭的部分比較多可是我這裡會跟委員補充像我們人種我們就有兩個科長科長喔 主管喔他也請議因留庭我們連主管就讓他在議因留庭而不會因為你是主管身份我不要讓你去當然 任何的職別職等"},{"start":389.341,"end":407.715,"text":"都有相同的權利嘛 對不對所以我們是以身作則然後建立標竿 大家來模仿讓這些比較主觀管的他也敢請 不影響升遷嘛但是我跟您討論性別平權看起來你們今天的報告數字說男性成長55.79% 很好來你額外拍拍手 下一頁但是呢 你們沒有說的事實是"},{"start":415.581,"end":430.954,"text":"女性跟男性的育嬰留庭還是回到一個女生照顧小孩是女人的一年所以比例起來男性去請的只有22.71%這是最高的數字"},{"start":434.744,"end":459.344,"text":"女性是77.29換言之照顧生養的責任還是落在女性的身上是傳統的觀念在公務部門我就以育嬰留庭請假的性別也解讀到這樣子的一個現象下一頁我們對於男性也要投入生養的責任我就以育嬰留庭剛剛是1比4"},{"start":461.038,"end":483.734,"text":"我們來看看這個產駕現在男生可以請陪產駕跟這個陪檢駕越來越進步男性在產前請駕跟女性自己是懷孕大八度嘛其實是1比1就是說年輕爸爸寶寶去做產檢去生我都覺得我有責任我要參與這是人生光榮的一刻可是生完之後"},{"start":485.154,"end":506.844,"text":"照顧小孩又回到我剛剛說的1比4還是女性在公職的現場女性去請育嬰留庭男性就比較保守這是一種性別的失衡當然有傳統的觀念這個部分你們怎麼樣在制度上再去宣導再去給幼嬰鼓勵爸爸也要育嬰留庭"},{"start":509.428,"end":516.885,"text":"製度在那嘛我覺得我們還是要再做先導的工作還要持續啦另外"},{"start":518.362,"end":537.058,"text":"也有一些現實的情況一般來講有時候因為先生進到職場的時間也可能比較早一點他的月薪待遇可能也比較高女性的他待遇可能相對的問題所以這就是另外一個問題啦為什麼男生跟女生的薪水 阿嬤要去討論阿嬤要去討論什麼人照顧孩子這樣會好有些是"},{"start":543.624,"end":553.231,"text":"董事長說話要洗腦啦不要在這裡挑起另外一個性別的男生的薪水就那麼高女生好像薪水就那麼少好像這是一個通"},{"start":554.372,"end":574.894,"text":"也不是通案啦我只是在說有這個現象啦有一個現象因為本來就是你在總體的看起來大概是1比4所以我們現在之所以讓雙父母雙方都可以育嬰留庭而且同樣從六成星到八成星都是希望可以打破這些東西"},{"start":574.974,"end":600.484,"text":"就是男女都 父母親都一起請嘛我提出這個問題就好好去思考怎麼樣可以讓我們的男性更勇敢承擔責任 好不好我們來比日本我們過去都說 日本的男人大男人比台灣男人嚴重得多台灣男人相對是比較大型的我身為台灣女人 我深感幸福啊但是你看看喔 國際比一比喔育嬰留庭在日本"},{"start":602.363,"end":621.799,"text":"10年日本男性去育嬰留庭的成長49%女生台灣10年成長9.2%如果是以倍數來講日本10年男生去請育嬰留庭成長16.8倍台灣10年只成長不到2倍我就說"},{"start":623.618,"end":640.493,"text":"那社會觀來說日本的男尊女卑可能是比台灣更有一些些他們很羨慕台灣的自由女性的地位的提升但是如果以育嬰流行在日本這是日本的公務員我還沒有比勞工喔"},{"start":641.534,"end":668.448,"text":"我手上還有勞工的數字但今天您是人事總長所以看到日本做得到他一定有其他的制度誘因他一定有更多可以做到更到位的如果真的推動性別平權在生養的這件事情的友善職場我們還有很大的空間要進步跟努力把這個問題帶回去好嗎好那最後一個我占用一分鐘很多委員都在說鐵飯碗不再熱門"},{"start":671.471,"end":694.222,"text":"確實報考的人數腰斬現在大概十幾萬 十六萬左右但是我希望在A黨的委員不要提錯解方我們如果要讓鐵飯碗真的是鐵飯碗就要保障現職的公務同仁他的福利福祉不能夠受到任何的剝奪我們想方設法這幾年來我們為軍公教調薪了四次14%"},{"start":696.997,"end":714.795,"text":"但是呢還是有減壓跟友善職場進步的空間照顧現役公務員是我認為您作為人事總長我作為監督執政的國會議員我們一定要優先照顧我們的現役工作同仁"},{"start":716.428,"end":728.192,"text":"以前說勞役不均如果說在野黨的委員提錯解方是要把年金停侃要把年金走回頭路讓我們的公務人員的這個鋪可能16年就會破產"},{"start":732.393,"end":757.532,"text":"教育人員可能13年後就領不到退休金影響的是現役工作人員的權益那麼鐵飯碗就更不是鐵飯碗了因為退休金會被在野黨的委員亂搞惡搞現役的公務人員領不到退休金就會成為一個負面的惡性循環公務同仁的這個工作不再具有吸引力"},{"start":758.533,"end":787.42,"text":"所以說這個問題我要再次提出來不要下錯解方給錯藥如果讓年金走回頭路改革中斷造成年金的破產這才是對現役的公務人員最不公平的地方我們要大聲說我們要勇敢說因為要為所有的在場所有的同仁確保退休金人人領得到"},{"start":788.24,"end":796.586,"text":"所以呼籲在野黨的委員司法法治委員會的同仁三思再三思謝謝獨眼俠主席謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時43分）辛苦的召委，感謝。請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天有兩個主題跟您交換一下意見，非常多委員都關心的身心調適假終於在10月10日上路了，作為在立法院一路催生身心調適假的立委，我從教育部門推到公務部門，當然下一個努力我們希望進入民間企業。這個制度現在、現行是併入事假，我當然認為先求有再求好，我非常鼓勵也要拜託勇敢地去宣傳，我們告訴所有的公務同仁，不要讓自己的權利睡著了。對於身心調適假，大家要記得，主官（管）們不能夠對請身心調適假的同仁們貼上任何歧視性的標籤，反而應當要給更多的關懷，這就是我們為什麼設置了身心調適假這個進步性的新假別。當然，從公部門推到私部門，一向以來都是我們各項權益福祉的一個路徑，公部門先行再推廣到私部門，由我們自己來做好的典範。","我看到這個消息跟新聞真的是很開心，因為育嬰留停假明年要上路，優先在勞動部啟動了，勞動部推動「育嬰留停以日申請，家庭照顧隨時陪伴」，這樣可以機動彈性地幫助這些家裡有小朋友的年輕爸媽們，這個制度勞動部先行了，開始從企業來推，我們公部門是不是全面適用？軍公教全面適用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們軍公教都沒有任何限制，本來就已經by時間的方式在……"],["吳委員思瑤：現在新制以日跟時是更機動、更彈性、更貼心，民間有的，公部門也可以推嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，這是公家機關先推，然後民間再跟著我們這樣推。"],["吳委員思瑤：是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是走在前面，勞動再跟著過來。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果是這樣，我們就要宣傳得更大力喔！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這個大新聞是我們勞動部前幾個禮拜在院會通過的，我有關心到我們卓院長也特別在院會上說，我們把這個福利給在私部門的年輕爸媽，而軍公教也一體適用那很好，公私部門一起來做，我們讓制度更優化，讓育嬰留停都能夠更友善。","昨天立法院有一個好消息，就是司法及法制委員會修正的公務人員考績法昨天三讀通過了，透過這個考績法的三讀通過，我們讓公務員的育嬰留停不再延緩、延後他的升遷機會，這是一個進步性的立法，我們終止制度性的歧視，讓照顧不再是懲罰。這個修法昨天三讀通過了，也謝謝人事總處、謝謝我們司法及法制的委員，一起把制度修正得更人性。但是法也修了，這種彈性的假別也給了，您對於現在育嬰留停在公部門的執行感到滿意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得各個公務機關的法律遵從事實上都非常的到位，可是我覺得還有一個要努力的就是要加強宣導推廣。"],["吳委員思瑤：加強宣導？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，加強宣導推廣，因為每一個機關對於這樣一個新措施的認知可能會有一些差異性，像以前我在財政部服務的時候，我有一個同仁3年生了2個小孩，就是育嬰留停，他回來後隔年我就把他升為科長……"],["吳委員思瑤：那很好，不會因為他育嬰留停而給予歧視性的對待……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我覺得跟育嬰留停無關。"],["吳委員思瑤：就看能力、看表現嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊，看他的發展潛能。"],["吳委員思瑤：育嬰留停也要性別平權，我們要加強宣導，讓大家有假就可以請也敢請，制度上不會有歧視、不會影響到他的升遷、不會影響他的考績。我今天要跟您探討性別平權，男性公務員育嬰留停的優化制度在這幾年來我們一再地推進，譬如說110年起，男女雙方（爸媽）都可以申請育嬰留停，這是一個進步；然後在111年我們開始將育嬰留停津貼從六成薪調到八成薪，這也是一個大躍進，大家覺得這樣我願意，因為不會影響收入太多，有一些起碼的保障。所以確實比較起來，上路4年的新的、優化的制度，男性育嬰留停的人數從2,322人增加到3,633人，成長了55.79%，制度更進步，男性也勇於育嬰留停，照顧小孩不再只是女人的事，數字看起來成長55.79%，很漂亮，但這樣夠不夠？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我要跟委員報告一件事情，數字是這幾年……"],["吳委員思瑤：這是你們今天報告裡面的數字。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：男生請育嬰留停的部分比較多，可是我這裡跟委員補充，像我們人總就有兩個科長，是主管喔！他也請育嬰留停，我們也就讓他育嬰留停，不會因為他是主管身分就不讓他請假。"],["吳委員思瑤：當然，任何的職別、職等都有相同的權利嘛，對不對？人人平等嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：所以我們是以身作則，然後建立標竿，大家來模仿。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，很好，讓這些主官（管）的人也敢請，因為不影響升遷嘛！但是我跟您討論性別平權，看起來你們今天的報告數字顯示男性留停人次成長55.79%，很好，給你稱讚、拍拍手。但是你們沒有說的事實是，女性跟男性的育嬰留停的比例還是回到了照顧小孩是女人的責任，從占比看起來，男性請育嬰留停的只有22.71%，這是幾年來最高的數字，女性是77.29%。換言之，照顧生養的責任還是落在女性的身上，這是傳統的概念。在公務部門，我就以育嬰留停請假的性別解讀到這樣一個現象。","男性也要投入生養的責任，以育嬰留停來說，剛剛看到的比例是一比四，接下來看看產假的部分，現在男生可以請陪產假跟陪檢假，越來越進步，男性陪產檢及陪產假跟女性自己是懷孕者請產前假是一比一，也就是說，年輕爸爸陪老婆去做產檢、去生產都覺得自己有責任要參與，是人生光榮的一刻，可是生完之後照顧小孩又回到我剛剛說的一比四，在公職現場還是女性去請育嬰留停，男性就比較保守，這是一種性別的失衡，當然有傳統的觀念，這個部分你們怎麼樣在制度上再去宣導、再去給誘因，鼓勵爸爸也要育嬰留停？制度在那兒嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我們的宣導工作還是要持續，另外也有一些現實的情況，一般來講，有時候因為先生進到職場的時間可能比較早一點，所以月薪、待遇可能比較高，女性可能因為待遇相對較低等等問題，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這就是另外一個問題啦，為什麼男生跟女生的薪水……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：夫妻倆會去討論什麼人照顧小孩比較划算，有些是……"],["吳委員思瑤：人事長，說話要小心，不要在這裡挑起另外一個性別的問題，男生的薪水比較高、女生的薪水比較少，好像這是一個通……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不是通案啦，我是說有這個現象，因為從總體看起來大概是一比四嘛……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們現在之所以讓父母雙方都可以育嬰留停，而且同樣從六成薪到八成薪，都是希望可以打破這些東西。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是父母親都一起請嘛！"],["吳委員思瑤：我提出這個問題，就好好去思考怎麼樣可以讓我們的男性更勇敢承擔責任，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們來比日本，我們過去都說日本男人的大男人比臺灣男人嚴重得多，臺灣男人相對是比較貼心的，身為臺灣女人我深感幸福。但是你看看，國際比一比，育嬰留停在日本，日本十年男性請育嬰留停的成長49%，臺灣十年成長9.2%，如果是以倍數來講，日本十年男生去請育嬰留停成長16.8倍，臺灣十年只成長不到2倍。我就說，以社會觀念來說，日本的男尊女卑可能比臺灣更嚴重一些些，他們很羨慕臺灣女性地位的提升，但是如果以育嬰留停在日本，這是日本的公務員，我還沒有比勞工喔，我手上還有勞工的數字，但今天您是人事總長，日本能做得到一定是有其他的制度誘因，一定有更多可以做到更到位的，如果真的推動性別平權在生養這件事情的友善職場，我們還有很大的空間要進步跟努力，把這個問題帶回去，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後一個，我占用1分鐘，很多委員都在說鐵飯碗不再熱門，確實報考的人數腰斬，現在大概16萬人左右，但是我希望在野黨的委員不要提錯解方，我們如果要讓鐵飯碗真的是鐵飯碗，就要保障現職公務同仁的福利、福祉不能夠受到任何的剝奪。我們想方設法，這幾年來我們為軍公教調薪了4次、14%，但還是有減壓跟友善職場進步的空間。照顧現役公務員，是我認為您作為人事總長、我作為監督執政的國會議員要去做的，我們一定要優先照顧我們的現役工作同仁。以前說勞役不均，如果在野黨的委員提錯解方，是要把年金停砍、要讓年金走回頭路，讓我們公務人員的這個pool可能16年就會破產，教育人員可能13年後就領不到退休金，影響的是現役工作人員的權益，那麼鐵飯碗就更不是鐵飯碗了，因為退休金會被在野黨的委員亂搞惡搞，現役的公務人員領不到退休金，就會成為一個負面的惡性循環，公務同仁的這個工作不再具有吸引力。所以這個問題我要再次提出來，不要下錯解方、給錯藥，如果讓年金走回頭路、改革中斷，造成年金的破產，這才是對現役公務人員最不公平的地方，我們要大聲說、我們要勇敢說，因為要為在場所有的同仁確保退休金人人領得到。所以呼籲在野黨的委員，司法及法制委員會的同仁三思再三思。謝謝獨眼俠主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。吳思瑤委員質詢完以後數值降到918，已經合乎標準了，我都在照顧你們的健康。","接下來請最專業美麗的翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51375500549ecb9004599e9b6258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邱橫好對 局長你好 局長第一個問題請教你就是說這個中共四中全會剛落幕聽過第15次的五年經濟發展計畫"},{"start":18.959,"end":35.859,"text":"那這個有一些現象會讓人家覺得有點跟過去不一樣包括這個中央委員會出席的人數對這個特別是軍系軍方這個中央委員應該有三十幾席要出席就是出席二十幾席"},{"start":37.04,"end":55.105,"text":"那去包括一些已經沒有在名單裡面的找不到原因的未出席的大概還有二三十位還印出大概200多位吧如果沒記錯的話205位那出席的是168位缺席的是37位所以有很多軍系的包括這些將領沒有出席"},{"start":56.244,"end":73.46,"text":"這透露什麼訊息習近平的大權還是牢牢在握呢還是岌岌可聞你們的判斷這一次有注意到中央委員的出席狀況就像跟委員報告的數字確實是比較低那大概有18%的中央委員是沒有出席的"},{"start":73.88,"end":102.103,"text":"那代表有大規模的整肅跟調查的工作還在進行整肅是反貪嗎有 反貪跟忠誠的問題可能都有所以我們的解讀是認為他反映的是中國的貪腐還有忠誠問題可能蠻嚴重的他是在加大力道對 那也跟委員報告他這一次中委員有遞補11位候補委員那是還沒有及時遞補啊有 這一次有遞補11位但是11位完全跳過了該遞補的軍方代表的名單那代表他對於軍方代表"},{"start":102.984,"end":111.669,"text":"所以現階段在整肅軍方貪腐的問題對對對 他在完成調查之前而且直接降臨的位階非常之高啊是啊 是啊當過這個軍委副書記對 或是軍區司令員軍區司令員"},{"start":118.248,"end":142.694,"text":"所以這種情況 您覺得他習近平的大權還是牢牢在握對 我們剛剛跟陳俊宇委員在報告也是就是他現在幾乎是獨攬軍權啦然後對於一些將領的背景沒有那麼的信任所以除了剛剛說中央委員 遞補名單沒有軍方代表以外中央軍委會也沒有遞補那過去委員可能也知道都有欺襲所以現在還是軍權在握嘛對對 所以現在只有世襲 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他不可能讓我入境轉機也有危險能不能有一些正面表列的國家你看他的第三國受到中國他們的國內的政治經濟受到中國強烈的控制強大的控制力的這些國家有沒有可能正面表列"},{"start":304.989,"end":325.298,"text":"對 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謝謝主席 郭文豪主長早安喔 我想這個中國對台的施壓其實是不間斷的喔那最近更是越演越烈喔那中國官媒他之前也公佈了他們的這個衛星就是吉林一號那對台灣的不管是台北市區阿里山日月潭等等喔 這個有非常清楚的一個"},{"start":24.548,"end":44.463,"text":"就是衛星的照片包含整個所有地面的一些細節我想他們的衛星看得很勤動作很勤也看得很密幾乎隨時都可以取得這些影像我想他已經把自家的衛星會不會有可能也是對於台灣的一些戰略的一個不管是縱橫這樣子的一個掌握我想我們有沒有什麼樣的因應的方式"},{"start":49.366,"end":55.292,"text":"那我的問題是就是我們的情報蒐集跟驗證會不會跟不上他們對方的影像更新的一個速度我們要怎麼樣來減少這樣子的一個差距這是第一個問題那第二個問題是有沒有哪一些方法我們可以降低或者是我們來做這個對抗所謂的他們的高解析度的一個衛星所帶來的這些情搜的一些優勢"},{"start":71.309,"end":94.902,"text":"那有沒有哪一些的技術或者是哪一些防防的措施我們是可以來做採取的那第三個問題是這些影像透明化對於所謂的軍事的一個動機那跟他那個關鍵的設施的一個防護還有我們這個指揮的體系會不會造成哪一些具體的一個風險有沒有量化的一些評估我們有沒有在做這樣子的一個部分那進程又是什麼"},{"start":95.462,"end":109.727,"text":"那第四個就是國家地理的一個資訊的系統跟國土的這個測會的空間的資料庫如果將來是被害或者是呢有一些資料被滲透了那會不會也跟這些衛星相互有一些交互驗證之後加劇"},{"start":111.587,"end":136.401,"text":"資料外洩的一個問題 以上四個問題請教一下 謝委員的提醒跟指教那第二部分是針對科技情報的收集那這是本局的主要的重點那事實上在過去兩年也針對我們局裡面的科技情報單位做了一個重新的組織改造那目的就是希望不管是在訊號情報或影像情報可以掌握得更精準那中共在收集我們的相關的偽造我們也在收集他們的而且我們的數量不會比他們少"},{"start":136.721,"end":162.61,"text":"那也是會針對中共相關的軍事動態軍事設施的部署那都會有完整的掌握來做分析這是第一個部分的報告那第二部分的報告是假如說它的衛照鎖定的是我們的重要的戰略或軍事的要塞的話那當然這一部分國防部他都有一些應處的作為包括怎麼樣來加強危險的措施讓它的衛照的拍攝清晰度不佳或是因為跟地形地物地貌的融入沒有辦法精準的來判斷相關設備的實際的狀況"},{"start":165.131,"end":182.038,"text":"那另外有一個蠻重要的做法是我們的相關的武器裝備也要更能夠機動化的來做調整跟部署那這樣子讓他的衛照永遠比較跟不上我們相關機動部署跟靈活運用的一個策略的一個運用這大概是另一個說明"},{"start":183.559,"end":204.674,"text":"那第三個部分是在整個委員擔心的未照再配合到相關資安的侵害中共也許可以做大數據的分析更掌握我們相關的一個狀況那這部分確實應該要來注意所以針對中共對我們的科技情報收集那可能的手法那以及我們怎麼樣來阻絕包括資安的部分怎麼樣來阻絕"},{"start":205.655,"end":234.108,"text":"那確實我們是列為一個重要的重點的工作那也有一些專案在處理但因為國安局主要的夜館會針對我們的情報11個機關來強化我們這方面的建制那後續怎麼樣把我們情報單位的做法再推廣到政府其他單位也能夠來注意到中共科技情報的運用不管是衛照電偵或是網駭來做大數據分析之後對我們國安的相關的情質掌握會更為細緻那這個部分我們再來加強"},{"start":234.768,"end":264.268,"text":"最後一個小問題就是說我們在這個所謂的反制的一個技術上面我們有沒有跟國際有一些配合那我們怎麼樣來合作然後讓國際來協助這樣子的一個管道有有有因為這個也是老師跟我們報告這是我們現在國際情報交流科技情報是主要的重點之一那衛照的部分除了傳統的光學衛星以外後續還有這種合成孔徑的衛星那這一部分都是比較新的技術那也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資進行科技情報交流的主要重點"},{"start":264.808,"end":276.397,"text":"好那最後就是剛剛回應一下這個我們賴志寶委員就是我們要加強這個委員的在外的人身的安全替沈伯陽講一下話好這個我們要注意謝謝他謝謝他的關心謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：局長早安。我想中國對臺的施壓，其實是不間斷，最近更是愈演愈烈，中國官媒之前也公布了他們的衛星吉林一號，對臺灣不管是臺北市區、阿里山、日月潭等等，有非常清楚的衛星照片，包含所有地面的細節，我想他們衛星看得很勤、動作很勤，也看得很密，幾乎隨時都可以取得這些影像。我想他已經把自家的衛星，會不會有可能作為對於臺灣的一些戰略，不管是縱橫這樣的掌握，我們有沒有什麼樣的因應方式？我的問題是我們的情報蒐集跟驗證，會不會跟不上對方影像更新的速度？我們要怎麼樣減少這樣的差距？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題是有沒有哪一些方法，我們可以降低或者是對抗他們高解析度衛星所帶來這些情蒐的優勢？有沒有哪一些的技術或者是哪一些防範的措施，是我們可以來採取的？","第三個問題是這些影像透明化，對於軍事的動機跟關鍵設施的防護，還有我們指揮的體系，會不會造成哪一些具體的風險？有沒有在做量化的一些評估？進程又是什麼？","第四個問題是國家地理資訊系統跟國土測繪空間的資料庫，如果將來被駭或者有一些資料被滲透了，會不會跟這些衛星有一些交互驗證之後，加劇資料外洩的問題？以上四個問題，請教一下局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員的提醒跟指教。第一個部分是針對科技情報的蒐集，這是本局主要的重點，事實上，我過去這兩年也針對我們局裡的科技情報單位做了組織重新改造，目的就是希望不管是在訊號情報或影像情報可以掌握得更精準。中共在蒐集我們相關的衛照，我們也在蒐集他們的，而且我們的數量不會比他們少，也會針對中共相關的軍事動態、軍事設施的部署，都會有完整的掌握來做分析，這是第一個說明。","第二部分的報告，假如他的衛照鎖定的是我們重要的戰略或軍事要塞的話，當然這部分國防部都有一些應處的作為，包括怎麼樣來加強維嚴的措施，讓他衛照的拍攝清晰度不佳，或是因為跟地形、地物、地貌的融入，沒有辦法精準判斷相關設備的實際狀況。另外有一個蠻重要的作法是，我們相關的武器裝備要更能夠機動化做調整跟部署，讓他的衛照永遠比較跟不上我們相關機動部署跟靈活運用的策略，這是第二個說明。","第三個部分是委員擔心的，衛照在配合到相關資安的侵害，中共也許可以做大數據的分析，更掌握我們相關的狀況，這部分確實應該要來注意。所以針對中共對我們的科技情報蒐集、可能的手法，以及我們怎麼樣阻絕，包括資安的部分怎麼樣阻絕，確實我們把它列為重要的重點工作，是有一些專案在處理。但因為國安局主要的業管會針對我們11個情報機關，來強化我們這方面的建置，後續怎麼樣把我們情報單位的作法，再推廣到政府其他單位，也能夠注意到中共科技情報的運用，不管是衛照、電偵或是網駭來做大數據分析之後，對我們國安相關的情資掌握會更為細緻。針對這個部分，我們會再來加強。"],["郭委員昱晴：最後一個小問題，在反制的技術上，我們有沒有跟國際有一些配合？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們怎麼樣來合作，讓國際可以來協助的管道？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。因為這也是……老實跟委員報告，這是我們現在國際情報交流中，科技情報是主要的重點之一。而在衛照的部分，除了傳統的光學衛星以外，後續還有綜合合成孔徑的衛星，這一部分都是比較新的技術，也是我們跟國際盟友在交換情資及進行科技情報交流的主要重點。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。最後回應一下賴士葆委員，我們要加強委員在外的人身安全，替沈伯洋講一下話，這個我們要注意，謝謝他的關心，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da518225b643d1166ac2b08d4a2736e01e2ba3c61875d63c713507496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:39:14 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报告这个电力的调配那就分为长期的跟及时短期的长期的就是我们每年会去检讨它的电力需求是多少所以像NVIDIA这种它的用电不会突然产生的它一定是在它几年前规划盖厂的时候我们就会要求它提出来那获得核准就但是你只看到NVIDIA但是跟着NVIDIA相关的对不对整个供应链的或者是其他的共同需求"},{"start":304.548,"end":329.524,"text":"因為所有比較大型的蓋的廠通常蓋的廠大概都有兩年到三年那通常他要蓋這個廠之前他會有一個計劃那我們就會掌握所以就是說會把他算在如果已經核准他這個計劃我們就會把他算在裡面你們就會把他算在用電需求裡面那目前用電需求就是用電供應有沒有問題王總跟委員報告整個"},{"start":333.925,"end":357.77,"text":"就是未来的这个AI产业所造成的对电力系统的冲击这个部分我们其实是随时都跟这些业者在联络知道说他们未来的需求在哪里然后会布在哪里但是我们也会跟他们说怎么去安排比如说以做AIDC的那个资料中心来讲我们就会跟他们讲我们的电厂我们的"},{"start":358.63,"end":380.977,"text":"变电锁会盖在什么地方那它盖在什么地方比较适合所以我们会做互相的这个界界来让这个部分的用电能够很顺畅这是在应用端至于生产端的部分大概就是伺服器的生产这个部分它的生产用电跟平常的伺服器的生产用电是差不多的所以这个是没有影响的至于某些比较大的那个"},{"start":381.457,"end":401.179,"text":"半導體的製造的公司的生產用電也都是長期在觀察同時在互相接觸然後預知什麼時候會用電所以我們都有做長期的規劃跟分析因為這個東西我們現在正在進行的除了就是AI的建設以外我們還要將AI導入我們不同的方面"},{"start":402.2,"end":429.636,"text":"當然還有在生產製造啦整個不管是教育啦觀光或什麼都要在導入這個AI的過程當中那你前端的那個作業沒有做好的情況下那我們後端就沒有辦法進行喔那就這個部分喔希望說台電能源署以及經濟部喔就這個整體的用電需求以及未來的這樣子的調配的問題能夠緊述的處理可以嗎"},{"start":430.756,"end":457.406,"text":"謝謝委員指導因為這一題對台電而言是很嚴肅的一個問題所以我們會慎重看待而且會謹慎把它處理好目前也朝這方面在進行當中可是我們也擔心會缺電你知道嗎我們都有提前準備我們也擔心會缺電所以對於就是說這種供電瓶頸會不會產生現在是冬天了夏天的時候用電通常都是用電需求的高峰"},{"start":459.287,"end":477.477,"text":"那當然了現在是冬天問你這個問題一般的民眾或者大家都不會在意可是等到了在明年再來做這樣子相關的檢討的時候我們必須要知道的是你供電的瓶頸在哪裡啊你現在都說沒問題啊結果咧 明年如果跳電的時候咧"},{"start":478.82,"end":499.968,"text":"跟委員報告他的可能會遇到瓶頸式電源端就是電廠的建設來得及來不及這個我們都提前在規劃了至於說他的輸電線的瓶頸的部分我們就如剛才跟委員報告的我們會引導他在變電所的周邊就直接蓋所以當我們要蓋他們要蓋那個"},{"start":501.567,"end":528.272,"text":"应用中心的时候我们就就近从变电锁拉过去所以那个距离都很短所以在瓶颈方面都可以锈地克服跟解决所以NVIDIA没有办法盖来这样化的原因就是因为变电锁不是它可能是两个地方一个是办公室一个是用电的资料中心这两个是可以分开的中间的讯号都是用透过光纤所以是没有问题的好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時39分）謝謝主席，我想要請龔部長還有李署長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長還有李署長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：三大國際的公有雲業者像Amazon、Google、Microsoft都在全臺灣設立或是已經設立，並且要擴大我們區域的資料中心，代表了下一個世代我們臺灣會進入多雲競爭的局面。我想要請問一下，加上你們所說的AI新十大建設，你們要投入311億的預算，對於未來AI以及相關多雲競爭的總電力需求，你們有沒有做重新的評估？還是你們維持去年或是過去你們所預估平均每年就是2.8%的年成長量？當然我們知道，過去平均是2.8%，會不會這個平均在前幾年有爆炸性的需求增加，目前我們的電網有沒有辦法負荷這樣的相關電力增加呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，事實上我們的電力需求跟供應每年都在滾動式檢討，電力供需報告也會出報告，至於您剛剛提到比較大型的業者，他們如果要設立data center也好或是什麼，都要先跟我們的能源署及台電公司來說明，有電它才有辦法去做這個事情，包括工業區的開發也好或是什麼，他們必須要讓我們知道可能的電力需求是多少，我們要預做一些準備。所以跟委員報告，至少到2032年之前，將來他們比較重要的設施要運作的部分，我們大概都已經有掌握了，也做了一些因應的處置，更詳細的細節是不是請署長說明？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，請署長說一下。"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，這個我們都納入估計，至於我們怎麼估計？有三個來源：第一個，就是做環評時我們就知道這個電廠送環評了，大概需要多少用電量；第二個，在真正建廠前，大概三年以前，就要跟台電公司申請供電；另外一個，我們的資料來自產發署，而產發署會掌握企業比較長期的脈動。我們把這三個資料加在一起互相比對，同時每年滾動檢討，檢討完會提出電力供需報告，我們每年大概都會做這樣子的滾動檢討，並隨著實際狀況每年調整數字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：能源署也提到要做三個即時建設，也就是新機組、電網、變電所的變更、儲能，以及目前所有新建的發電機組與電網升級。我想請問，所謂的即時建設目前進度如何？你說了會配合業界新的用電需求，可是NVIDIA還沒來，等到它來的時候，未來你們要如何有一個即時的調配中心，也就是關於電力需求的即時調配中心？如此，未來在因應整個AI建設需求時，才有辦法有一個調配中心。如果沒有調配中心的話，一旦用電需求突然有爆炸性的成長，你該怎麼做？又要怎麼協調？"],["李署長君禮：報告，電力的調配分為長期的與即時、短期的。長期的，我們每年會檢討其電力需求是多少，所以像NVIDIA的用電並不會突然產生，一定是在幾年前規劃蓋廠時，我們就會要求它提出來，獲得核准之後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你只看到NVIDIA，與NVIDIA相關的呢？對不對？譬如各供應鏈的或其他的共同需求？"],["龔部長明鑫：所有比較大型蓋的廠，通常都要兩年到三年。通常在蓋這個廠之前會有一個計畫，我們就會掌握，所以會把它算在……如果已經核准這個計畫的話，我們就會把它算在裡面。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們就會把它算在用電需求裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前的用電供應有沒有問題？請教王總。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，有關未來AI產業對電力系統所造成的衝擊這部分，我們其實隨時都跟業者在聯絡，好知道他們未來的需求在哪裡、會布在哪裡。但我們也會跟他們說怎麼去安排，譬如以AI的DC（資料中心）來講，我們就會跟他們講，我們的電廠、變電所會蓋在什麼地方，而它蓋在什麼地方比較適合，所以我們會做互相的介接，讓這部分的用電能夠很順暢，這是在應用端。至於生產端的部分，大概就是伺服器的生產，其生產用電跟平常伺服器的用電是差不多的，因此沒有影響。不過某些比較大的半導體製造公司的生產用電，我們也都長期在觀察，同時也互相接觸，預知什麼時候會用電。所以我們都有做長期的規劃與分析。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們現在正在進行的，除了AI建設以外，還要將AI導入不同的面向，包括生產製造，不管教育、觀光或什麼的都要導入AI，一旦前端的作業沒有做好的情況下，後端就沒有辦法進行。就這部分來說，希望台電、能源署以及經濟部，能就整體用電需求與未來的調配問題儘速處理，可以嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：謝謝委員指導，因為這題對台電而言是很嚴肅的一個問題，所以我們會慎重看待，而且會謹慎處理好，目前也朝這方向在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是我們也擔心會缺電，你知道嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們都有提前準備。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們也擔心會缺電……"],["王總經理耀庭：有提前準備。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會產生供電瓶頸？現在是冬天，而夏天通常是用電需求高峰。現在是冬天，所以問你這個問題，一般民眾、大家都不會在意，可是等到明年再來做相關檢討時，我們就必須知道供電的瓶頸在哪裡？你現在都說沒問題，但如果明年跳電的話呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，可能會遇到的瓶頸是電源端，即電廠的建設來不來得及，所以我們都提前在規劃了。至於輸電線的瓶頸部分，誠如剛才跟委員報告的，我們會引導它在變電所的周邊直接蓋。因此，當他們要蓋應用中心時，我們可以就近從變電所拉過去，距離很短，所謂的瓶頸也可以就地克服並解決。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以NVIDIA沒有來彰化蓋的原因，就是因為變電所？"],["王總經理耀庭：不是、不是，這可能有兩個地方：一個是辦公室，一個是用電的資料中心，這兩個是可以分開的，中間的訊號都透過光纖，所以是沒有問題的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯的質詢，謝謝部長及總經理等相關單位。","我們現在請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5154c33872cc09633c599e9b62584ab3efa3c61875d63c7135f61d29bd310f8b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:38:59 - 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國際也反對喔來又是軍國主義互庇喔這個台灣要有立場目前沒有在他們的政策議題上好 那他提到台灣有事 日本有事有沒有要出兵 有沒有這部分確實是在高市當選自民黨總裁的公開記者會他有提到台灣有事就是日本有事他有沒有講出兵"},{"start":188.544,"end":199.98,"text":"他主要的一個政策立場是在談那個態勢假如台灣發生怎麼樣的緊急事態的話會連動到日本的國家那請問你川普有沒有說過台灣有事美國有事"},{"start":201.451,"end":214.214,"text":"川普有沒有說過這個部分 向委員講的主要是高市他在川普沒有說過這個話喔川普沒有說過這個話喔而且他現在越來 態勢越來越明顯他不願意為國際的一個紛爭出兵喔這裡面好 最後一點啦 我想不過我也 我報告一下因為我時間快到了我們主席對時間很嚴格他自己可以拖很久 別人不可以拖這個"},{"start":227.117,"end":250.686,"text":"來 我們看大陸對於所謂的台獨頑固分子他可以偵查 缺席審判 通緝更有人說這些人只要離開台灣就會被逮捕因為幾乎全世界都跟中國大陸有邦交嘛跟我們有邦交就有十幾個國家其他都有所以只要一出國到他們有邦交都可以透過類似"},{"start":251.986,"end":260.86,"text":"美國透過加拿大為華為的事情去逮捕孟晚舟這樣的模式我就請問你這個事情這個事情"},{"start":263.639,"end":284.404,"text":"會不會發生剛剛林楚瑜委員也在關切跟委員報告一下基本上中共這種所謂的跨境脅迫它是沒有實際的意義的它是在做政策宣示所以國內在討論的時候也不要落入它的這種法律戰心理戰跟輿論戰的架構之下而製造成一個心理恐慌的效果"},{"start":285.425,"end":299.217,"text":"也就是被他列為說他懲罰分子 出國照樣出國不必擔心我剛剛也跟林委員在提醒說到了跟中共真的非常友好或是有司法互助的國家確實要小心我們要提高警覺中共跟美國有司法互助啊"},{"start":300.118,"end":323.685,"text":"那你去美國 基本上我們去美國沒有問題的啊前提是在於親中的這種國家 那比較全球南方國家那要注意有沒有哪些國家會配合到沒有 我要提醒是 不管怎麼樣我們台灣人民 台灣人民代表 要受到我們一定的保護我不知道我們國安局這裡有沒有具體的做法可以保護我們台灣所有的人民 不要受到這樣的干擾"},{"start":325.305,"end":353.158,"text":"對 剛才跟其他委員提到確實要注意到這種被威脅委員在國內境內的人身安全問題那會不會有在地協力者會不會有在地協力者來侵犯他在國外呢在國外的部分我剛才提醒在國內沒有問題 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委員長早有一個議題蠻重要的就是我們在上個會期通過了幾個對於包含現役軍人以及退伍軍人的一些優先法案"},{"start":51.679,"end":59.101,"text":"那當然對於現役軍人的加薪非常遺憾而且我們還是要強力譴責即便是總統府公告之後但是行政院巨部編列預算但是同一時期我們所"},{"start":68.004,"end":95.196,"text":"通過的也就是就是對於退出的退役的上校以上子女的教育補助那這部分行政院有編列預算所以我也不曉得行政院為什麼採取一個很奇怪的雙標因為當時呢包含現役軍人的加薪以及對於退役上校以上子女補助教育補助事實上我們是同時通過的"},{"start":96.957,"end":114.515,"text":"那麼行政院選擇性的來編列預算好那所以呢這個有關於退役上校以上子女教育補助啊已經經過總統府公告而且呢我也特別去查你們也有編列預算"},{"start":115.456,"end":133.773,"text":"然後我們退府會事實上所通過的這個預告的發起辦法裡面呢也還特別強調是今年8月底就應該執行那當然這個我們雖然它的其實"},{"start":135.194,"end":149.626,"text":"他的對象不像是現役軍人嘉興這麼廣但是無論如何這是我們對於這個退休退役的上校以上尤其是當時是上校退休的的一個這個"},{"start":152.108,"end":169.272,"text":"的一個幫助那現在以現在的進度來講聽說是卡在我們人種這邊那我想請問一下為什麼我們人種為什麼到現在因為如果你這邊OK的話人種OK的話行政院照理講應該會核定這個退府會這個辦法所以我想請問一下人種的考慮是什麼"},{"start":180.151,"end":194.76,"text":"我謝謝給我這個時間因為人總不會卡這種案子因為之前不會卡我們之前一直在跟退伍會跟教育部在溝通就是說當要處理那個子女教卜的問題"},{"start":196.081,"end":220.933,"text":"我們必須要同時考慮到進攻教這些退役的軍人還有教師 還有公務人員那後來經過整個我們精算之後退伍費這裡大概需要一年大概五千多萬嘛對 當時我們也有算過這個大約需要的經費教育跟公務人員的部分加起來大概1.8 等於大概一年增加的額度大概2.38那2.38 坦白講 預算金額是不大"},{"start":224.355,"end":252.517,"text":"那屬於中央的部分會中央來支付現在唯一比較有問題的就是有些地方政府他地方政府要編列這個預算來支應這一個部分所以現在整個案子還在我們外交國防法務處那邊所以那個人事長的意思就是說如果把公教人員也納進來的話Total全部加起來是2.38億"},{"start":255.615,"end":261.243,"text":"對不對2.38億人長的意思說其實這個金額是可以可負擔的"},{"start":261.872,"end":277.4,"text":"可是現在問題是在地方政府的部分因為屬於地方政府的部分地方政府我們必須要去協商因為大家也知道地方政府你額外要請沒有錯我知道因為對於地方政府來說地方政府現在最擔心的就是常常是中央請客然後是地方買單其實非常非常多所以這個地方政府的財政是確實可以去考量的"},{"start":291.087,"end":307.355,"text":"那在這個考量所謂的就是說把公教人員也加進來之前我也想跟任市長做一個溝通為什麼我們會優先優先對於退役上校的子女先做補助"},{"start":308.456,"end":320.037,"text":"因为来我们来看一下我们也去查过公教人员因为公教人员有他的退休办法强制退休办法基本上他的强制退休是年满65岁"},{"start":322.256,"end":346.765,"text":"而且是任職滿五年但是對軍人他比較不一樣軍人的強制退休 事實上就說他如果在職務上他沒有辦法再晉級的話事實上他就必須退休所以相對軍人的退休的年齡事實上是比公教人員低很多的"},{"start":347.205,"end":362.574,"text":"我們今天來看如果說我們看就是公教人員平均的退休年齡男性跟女性大概都是59歲上下平均年齡平均退休年齡但是如果我們看到上校級的"},{"start":363.755,"end":380.935,"text":"上校級的退休年齡他就是在50歲以下大概將近49歲所以已經就是已經就是比他還年輕10歲就必須要退休所以這也是為什麼當時我們要推出這個修法最主要的就因為"},{"start":381.656,"end":410.297,"text":"如果你是將軍退休其實那個時候他的子女說實在已經已經大部分並不需要教育補助了啦因為他的年齡的關係但是很多的退役上校那個時間正好是他壯年的時候他又必須強制退休所以這個是我們必須要跟人種去做這樣的溝通那我是認為說既然我們在明年行政院也編列了預算"},{"start":411.258,"end":434.241,"text":"退府會也把這個發起辦法也通通都修好了那麼我們至少至少要讓他明年可以正式的開始上路那您剛剛講的對公教人員我在這邊也感謝任總把公教人員也把他納入來考量現在唯一的是"},{"start":434.921,"end":452.453,"text":"希望就是跟地方政府來做溝通嘛因為公教是必須要地方政府也要出錢那所以也像我們現在不是在修正才化法那我們一直在講就是說如果行政院把把才化法把中央跟地方之間的權責能夠講得更清楚而且說實在這次會講說給地方這麼多錢然後呢你地方沒有分擔什麼相關的業務但是事實上我剛才講的"},{"start":465.081,"end":486.715,"text":"就是過去長期以來中央請客中央有很多的政策一下去都是地方在買單我現在因為我知道那個人市長其實跟很多的地方的縣市首長也很熟啦我相信他們也一定有這樣抱怨尤其在財政比較困難的縣市所以"},{"start":487.512,"end":508.776,"text":"我支持剛才人事長所講的把它擴及到公教人員我講就是說尤其像這個我們軍人在你退休的時候是壯年然後你最需要用錢的時候你又可能還要去找其他工作但是小孩又在就學這個時候政府應該要給予"},{"start":511.977,"end":531.29,"text":"照顧尤其我們現在講國防任性國防任性我們現在這麼缺兵對不對這麼缺兵那如何能夠讓軍人認為國家真的可以照顧到你的這個家庭你也可以都能照顧子女的教育也都能夠照顧好所以那麼人事長我想請問那你們什麼時候可以核定呢"},{"start":536.678,"end":565.148,"text":"這個核定權應該不是在人總目前還在行政院外交國防法務處當然當然但是現在說卡在人總啊沒有卡在人總啦因為人總沒有不會去卡人家的我們都是在協助人家去把一些事情趕快更順暢不過這裡利用這個機會跟委員提一下當初公務人員他可以退休子女教卜"},{"start":565.808,"end":585.121,"text":"它本來是在它的月退休奉要2萬5以下後來就是調到2萬8可是在上校的部分因為我們有初步推估上校的它的一個月退休奉大概接近5萬左右兩邊有一點落差所以為了"},{"start":586.223,"end":600.643,"text":"橫平性的考量所以那時候上校指你的退伏的部分我們就是在整個年改制度的設計裡面有做一些設計現在的時空環境不一樣我想大家再來對話"},{"start":602.085,"end":623.869,"text":"好所以那人事長的意思也是說我們現在讓軍人就是退役軍人上校以上能夠補助子女教育補助所以我們現在我們現在行政院的政策方向也是讓公教人員同一個這個這個值等的也把它拉上來是不是也一樣就是也一樣做這個這是人種的一個期待當你你有照顧到K5軍人上校的部分那我其他"},{"start":639.56,"end":659.959,"text":"提高到五萬塊其實我要講的就是我們現在因為剛才也有很多委員關心年改的問題我們在年改裡面其實就已經一國好幾制了"},{"start":660.925,"end":687.866,"text":"其實就已經一國好幾制這為什麼在講說尤其這個所得替代率的部分比如說我們願意給軍人軍人所得替代率比較好那這個其實也是就是考慮到軍人付出而且以我們現階段大家希望能夠更多的這個軍人現在大家不要說現在連木兵也有問題不要增兵然後再加上不要說這個什麼散兵問題連木兵都有問題了"},{"start":690.407,"end":717.718,"text":"所以我覺得在這是人事長所考慮的我同意我同意但是我希望這個既然第一個立法院通過總統公告然後那個行政院編列預算然後那個退府會也發起辦法全部都已經都已經完備在這樣的狀況之下至少至少明年明年1月他一定要上路一定要上路人事長同不同意"},{"start":720.034,"end":725.876,"text":"這個決定錢不是在我這裡我知道啦但是你的意見很重要但是我們公教人員我們也會支持啦我們也會支持就如同剛才那個任市長所講的2.38億我們多多照顧一下我們的軍人尤其最近新的國安問題就是教師的"},{"start":744.423,"end":773.263,"text":"这个已经是完全的缺人了就已经有人才荒非常大的一个人才那以我时间外我只问一件事我再问一件事情就是我们10月10号开始上路的就是这个身心架我刚才讲就说像教师人员他也有我们现在出现了国外问题教师难求教师难找因为大量的缺"},{"start":774.204,"end":790.63,"text":"教師使得現在第一線的教師他的壓力特別特別的大他的時間也特別特別的長所以很快也不是說很快現在教師就成了另外一個血汗的產業那我想請問一下那麼身心調試價已經正式上路了嗎"},{"start":796.132,"end":819.107,"text":"好 那到目前為止 任市長所了解這個身心條是這樣上路之後現在公務員敢請嗎 有請假嗎我跟委員報告 第一年我們大概會每一個月請各個我們會去統計這個資料 在每一個月的20號那目前因為今年10月 今天是10月29號"},{"start":820.248,"end":848.464,"text":"所以我们在下一个月的20号会统计大概每一个月的20号我们会去做一次统计的资料做一次统计看看多少人请身心调试假然后随时做动态性的调整我们在网站上做揭露因为我觉得这样资讯透明公开会比较好一点对 因为其实很多人都认为身心调试假是需要的但是因为它并入试假又感觉好像"},{"start":850.325,"end":875.024,"text":"這個好像有點不夠到位所以就是說我們現在每個月都會去做一個統計這樣也很好了讓我們各單位你是各單位還是全部全部把它一起統計我們全國會做一個統計我覺得你們也應該用各單位來做因為我們也要了解一下各單位會不會有哪一些單位要請身心調試假特別多"},{"start":876.318,"end":902.822,"text":"這也是我有一種監看喔 基本上大概行政院會有二級機關啦然後二十二個縣市政府先這樣因為假如每一個單位他由縣市政府再往下會有二級三級機關構這樣可能數量會太多對對我覺得你做一個大致性的這樣子我們也比較知道哪一些單位的這個就是我們的公務人員他可能我們必須要我們必須要多關心一點"},{"start":904.003,"end":920.115,"text":"那我覺得當然有一些比如說是比較特殊性例如像現在就是我們在防疫的部分非洲住溫房也許防疫人員他們可能身心就比較壓力會比較大一些他可能有的是有季節性的"},{"start":920.495,"end":930.602,"text":"有的是有事件性的有的突發性等等那讓我們能夠多關心一下我們基層公務人員他們現在的這個身心狀況所以我覺得到時候啊那個也拜託這個身心價也就這個教職人員的部分你們來想想看怎麼樣讓我們可以去關心第一線的教職人員我剛才在講的這個是"},{"start":944.412,"end":969.785,"text":"我們這麼多在教育我們把我們的孩子放到我們的學校裡面我們當然希望我們的老師是身心健康的我從以前當議員的時候就有很多老師學校跟我講老師都在吃百憂解所以我的意思就是說我們應該對這第一線多關懷一些多關懷一些比如說我講的防疫人員現在他是因為有事件性的"},{"start":970.285,"end":975.508,"text":"那如果教室它是長期的一年四季一年365天它都有這樣的一個身心應該要紓解的問題那就值得我們更加重視人事長你是要補充這個我看你現在笑得很開心沒有就是教室的部分我們會請教育部去把這樣的資訊也跟我們一樣我們公務員的部分我們會處理教育的部分我們會通知教育部請教育部好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時26分）謝謝主席提醒，我之前還不曉得我們有二氧化碳的監測，以後我們應該要做有氧運動，是不是？"],["主席：你看，你一上臺馬上降。"],["王委員鴻薇：已經降到1,400以下了，我們努力維持比較好的空氣品質，讓大家都能夠神清氣爽一點。謝謝主席，我們請人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：人事長早。有一個議題蠻重要的，我們在上個會期通過了幾個包含現役軍人以及退伍軍人的一些優先法案，當然對於現役軍人的加薪非常遺憾，我們還是要強力譴責，即便是總統府公告後，行政院還是拒編列預算。但是同一時期，我們所通過對於退役上校以上子女的教育補助，行政院卻有編列預算，所以我也不曉得行政院為什麼採取一個很奇怪的雙標。事實上，當時包含現役軍人的加薪，以及對於退役上校以上子女教育補助，我們是同時通過的，但是行政院選擇性的來編列預算。退役上校以上子女教育補助已經經過總統府公告，而且我也特別去查，你們也有編列預算，事實上我們退輔會所通過的預告發給辦法裡面，也還特別強調是今年8月底就應該執行。雖然他的對象不像對現役軍人加薪般影響這麼廣，但是無論如何，這是我們對於退役的上校以上同仁的幫助。以現在的進度來講，聽說卡在人總，因為如果人總OK的話，行政院照理講應該會核定退輔會這個辦法，所以我想請問一下，人總的考慮是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個時間，人總不會卡這種案子啦！因為之前……"],["王委員鴻薇：不會卡？好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們之前一直在跟退輔會、跟教育部溝通，當要處理子女教補的問題時，我們必須要同時考慮到軍公教這些退役的軍人，還有教師，還有公務人員，後來經過我們整個精算之後，退輔會大概一年需要五千多萬。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，當時我們也有算過這個大約需要的經費。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：教育跟公務人員的部分加起來大概1.8億，等於一年增加的額度大概2.38億，坦白講2.38億的預算金額是不大，屬於中央的部分會由中央來支付，現在唯一比較有問題的是，有些地方政府要編列預算來支應這個部分，所以現在整個案子還在外交國防法務處那邊。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以人事長的意思是，如果把公教人員也納進來的話，total（全部）加起來是2.38億，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：2.38億，人事長的意思是，其實這個金額是可負擔的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可是現在問題是在地方政府，屬於地方政府的部分，我們必須要和地方政府協商，大家也知道額外要請地方政府……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯，我知道對於地方政府來說，地方政府現在最擔心的常常是中央請客然後地方買單，這其實非常非常多，所以地方政府的財政是確實可以去考量的。這個考量是把公教人員也加進來之前，我也想跟人事長做一個溝通，為什麼我們會優先對於退役上校的子女做補助？我們來看一下，我們也去查過公教人員，因為公教人員有他們的強制退休辦法，基本上他們的強制退休是年滿65歲，而且任職滿5年；但是軍人比較不一樣，軍人的強制退休事實上是他在那個職務上沒有辦法再晉級的話，那他就必須退休，所以相對於軍人的退休年齡，事實上他們是比公教人員低很多的。","我們今天來看公教人員平均的退休年齡，男性跟女性大概都是59歲上下，這是平均退休年齡，但我們看到上校級的退休年齡是在50歲以下，將近49歲，相比之下年輕10歲就必須要退休，這也是當時我們為什麼要推出這個修法最主要的原因。如果是將軍退休，那時他的子女說實在已經大部分不需要教育補助了，因為他年齡的關係，但很多退役上校那時正好是壯年的時候，他又必須強制退休，所以我們必須要跟人總做這樣的溝通。","我是認為，既然明年行政院也編列了預算，退輔會也把這個發給辦法通通都修好了，那麼我們至少要讓它明年可以正式開始上路。您剛剛講的，對於公教人員，我在這邊感謝人總把公教人員也納入考量，現在唯一希望的就是跟地方政府來做溝通，因為公教必須要地方政府也出錢。我們現在不是在修正財劃法，我們一直在講的，如果行政院在財劃法把中央跟地方之間的權責能夠講得更清楚，說實在這次說要給地方這麼多錢，然後地方沒有分擔什麼相關的業務，但事實上如我剛才講的，過去長期以來中央請客，但中央有很多政策一下去都是地方在買單，因為我知道人事長其實跟很多地方的縣市首長也很熟，我相信他們也一定有這樣的抱怨，尤其在財政比較困難的縣市。所以我支持剛才人事長所講的，把它擴及到公教人員，尤其軍人在退休的時候是壯年，最需要用錢的時候可能還要去找其他工作，但小孩又還在就學，這個時候政府應該要給予照顧。我們現在講國防韌性、國防韌性，現在這麼缺兵，對不對？如何能夠讓軍人認為國家真的可以照顧到自己的家庭，子女的教育也都能夠照顧。人事長，我想請問你們什麼時候可以核定呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個核定權應該不是在人總，目前還在行政院外交國防法務處，另外……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然、當然，但現在說卡在人總啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有卡在人總啦！人總不會去卡人家，我們是在協助人家，把一些事情處理的更順暢。不過，利用這個機會跟委員提一下，當初公務人員可以領退休子女教補，本來月退休俸是在25,000以下，後來調到28,000；可是在上校的部分，因為我們有初步推估，上校的月退休俸大概接近50,000萬左右，兩邊有一些落差，所以為了衡平性的考量，那時上校子女教補的部分，我們在整個年改制度裡面有做一些設計，現在的時空環境不一樣，我想大家會再來對話。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以人事長的意思是，我們現在讓退役軍人上校以上能夠領子女教育補助，現在行政院的政策方向也是讓公教人員在同一個職等的把它拉上來，是不是？也一樣做……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是人總的期待，只有照顧到退伍軍人上校的部分，其他的公務同仁本來是28,000以內才可以適用，我們是不是也可以考慮把它……"],["王委員鴻薇：提高到5萬塊？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，就是大家一體適用的概念，因為我覺得軍公教不要做內部相對的比較，有時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的就是，因為剛才也有很多委員關心年改的問題，我們在年改裡面其實就已經一國好幾制了，尤其在講所得替代率的部分，比如說我們願意給軍人所得替代率比較好，這其實也是考慮到軍人的付出，而且我們現階段希望能夠有更多的軍人，但現在不要說徵兵，再加上什麼閃兵問題，連募兵都有問題了。所以人事長所考慮的我同意，但我希望這既然是立法院通過，總統公告，然後行政院編列預算，退輔會的發給辦法全部都已經完備，在這樣的狀況之下，至少明年1月一定要上路，人事長同不同意？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個決定權不是在我這裡，我同意的話，等於是我對你開了芭樂票，這樣不好……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，但是你的意見很重要，當然公教人員我們也會支持啦！就如同剛才人事長所講的2.38億，多多照顧一下軍人，尤其最近新的國安問題是教師已經完全的缺人，已經有人才荒，非常非常大的人才荒。","時間的關係，我再問一件事情，就是10月10號開始上路的身心假，我剛才講的教師人員也有……我們現在出現了國安問題，教師難求、教師難找，因為大量缺教師，使得現在第一線教師的壓力特別特別的大，時間也特別特別的長，所以很快……也不是很快，現在教師成了另外一個血汗產業，我想請問一下，身心調適假已經正式上路了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：10月10號。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，到目前為止，就人事長所了解，身心調適假上路之後，現在公務員敢請嗎？有請假嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，第一年我們大概會每一個月去統計這個資料，在每一個月的20號，因為今年10月才開始實施，今天是10月29號，所以我們在下個月20號會去統計，大概每個月的20號會去做一次統計。"],["王委員鴻薇：做一次統計，看各個……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，看看多少人請身心調適假，我們會做這樣的統計。"],["王委員鴻薇：然後隨時做動態的調整嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會在網站上做揭露，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：在網站上揭露很好啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我覺得資訊透明公開會比較好一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，因為其實很多人都認為身心調適假是需要的，但是因為併入事假，又感覺好像有點不夠到位，所以你們每個月都會去做一個統計？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣也很好，你是各單位分別統計還是全國夯不啷噹全部一起統計？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們全國會做一個統計……"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得你們也應該各單位分別來做，因為我們也想了解一下有哪一些單位請身心調適假的人特別多，這也是某一種監看喔……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，大概行政院會是二級機關，然後22個縣市政府，先這樣……"],["王委員鴻薇：可以啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為假如要每個單位做統計，由縣市政府再往下會有二級、三級機關（構），這樣可能數量會太多。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我覺得你做一個大致性的統計，這樣子我們也比較知道哪一些單位的公務人員可能是我們必須要多關心一點的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得當然有一些是比較具特殊性的，例如像現在我們在做非洲豬瘟的防疫，也許防疫人員他們可能身心上的壓力會比較大一些，有的是有季節性的、有的是事件性的、有的是突發性等等，讓我們能夠多關心一下基層公務人員現在的身心狀況，另外針對教職人員的身心假部分，也請你們想想看要怎麼樣讓我們可以去關心第一線的教職人員。我剛才在講的，我們把孩子放到學校裡面，當然希望學校的老師是身心健康的，以前我當議員的時候就有很多老師、學校跟我講，老師都在吃百憂解。所以我的意思就是說，我們應該對第一線人員多關懷一些，比如我講的防疫人員，這個現在是因為事件性的，如果教師是長期的、一年四季、一年365天都有身心要抒解的問題，那就值得我們更加重視。人事長，你是要補充嗎？我看你笑得很開心。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，就是教師的部分，我們會請教育部在資訊的部分也跟我們一樣，公務員的部分我們會處理，教育的部分，我們會通知教育部。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請教育部去做，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。現在數值又降了300，所以窗戶打開是有用的。","我先做會議程序的預告，稍後在翁曉玲委員詢答完畢以後休息5分鐘。","現在請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5130fdc5766d860875c033660070f94f42a3c61875d63c713575783c78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請主席邀請陳部長還有鄭董事長陳部長 鄭董事長請鄭董事長 謝謝委員好部長早"},{"start":16.287,"end":44.451,"text":"今天委員會是針對台鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討以及改善員工職場安全的一個專題報告在這邊本席首先針對有關就是這個車站的安全的問題那我們看到從今年從4月到現在10月份短短的半年之間就發生了7件台鐵員工遭受到暴力攻擊的一個事件"},{"start":45.251,"end":60.429,"text":"那針對這樣子的屢次發生的這樣子的一個事件我想對於台鐵員工在工作上也會有這個承受的很大的一個壓力所以在這個部分不曉得我們交通部有沒有比較積極的對策可以來"},{"start":61.85,"end":83.493,"text":"加強我們台鐵員工在上班的時候執行的時候的一個安全是 跟委員報告其實台鐵公司針對這些案件也都相當注意那也很支持我們的員工在法律的訴訟上面他們有提供法律上面的支持那另外一方面就是也有在討論有沒有要裝密錄器這件事但是這個部分還沒有得到員工大家的"},{"start":83.993,"end":100.804,"text":"同意啦有些員工覺得不需要再裝這個設備那另外針對保全的部分今天也有討論到那我們也朝向未來保全人力如果可以增加還有鐵井的人力如果可以增加的話我們會盡量來爭取增加的這個緣額那還有一點就是說對於員工的這個訓練"},{"start":102.165,"end":118.539,"text":"就是維安的訓練這個部分可能我覺得台鐵公司也應該有作為也是對於員工如何保護自己的這個作為應該要做一定的訓練這個部分應該台鐵公司也有在做還有要董事長要補充一下嗎簡單補充一下"},{"start":119.48,"end":133.531,"text":"大概我們朝像這剛才部長講的那個方向在做尤其在我們自己防衛列車上的這個列車長還有我們站上的人員的這種自我防衛的方式然後相對的就等於是要制止這個"},{"start":135.092,"end":160.376,"text":"不法人員的部分我們會馬上 我們有這種訓練那另外就是說如果是在受到這個旅客呢辱罵這些部分我們已經有設立我們這個法務的資源那麼對於 如果員工要提高的話呢我們會對這個旅客來協助我們的員工來保護他職場上的安全"},{"start":161.569,"end":185.415,"text":"我們也希望就是說我們交通部跟台鐵公司這邊就是要去思考怎樣比較周到然後全面性的可以去防範這樣子的一個事件的發生那除了就是說這個遭遇這個蓄意的暴力攻擊之外我們也看到在10月27號在高雄捷運有發生了一件這個高中女生落軌身亡的一個意外事件"},{"start":186.295,"end":195.961,"text":"所以對於整個軌道運輸的越台的乘客的安全問題我想這個安全也是包括員工因為我們剛剛提到的台鐵員工被供給他是被推落到落下軌道"},{"start":202.845,"end":218.286,"text":"那在高雄捷運這個是高中女生落軌可能是自己跌下去的所以對於這個月台上這個安全的一個問題我們交通部這邊有沒有就是比較具體的一些可以推動的改善"},{"start":218.866,"end":244.719,"text":"跟委員報告 除了剛剛在講的那些措施之外我們對於一些車站的月台門我們也開始在做精進我們目前高雄站應該實驗性的月台門已經做得差不多了嘛那明年三月 明年三月就會安裝完成那如果實驗過後可以的話我們希望在重要的車站尤其是人潮比較眾多風險那個係數比較高的地方我們先來裝月台門"},{"start":245.439,"end":252.093,"text":"那除了台鐵之外高鐵其實也是會朝這個方向未來高鐵應該是每一個車站都會有月台門"},{"start":253.657,"end":275.491,"text":"我們看到目前台鐵做的這個就是月台門跟高鐵是不一樣的對因為台鐵的車型比較多種比較多樣化那因為他每一個車子的門開的地方不一樣跟高鐵不一樣高鐵是固定那個地方有車門但是台鐵每一個車型不同的話他那個車的開門的地方都不一樣"},{"start":276.091,"end":293.312,"text":"是 所以這個纜繩市的月台門目前就是我們台鐵採用的一個設計那這個目前是還在就是測試階段嗎是的 現在在測試那我們預計在明年的3月可以完成這個安裝"},{"start":294.652,"end":321.247,"text":"是高雄站还是全部就是高雄的部分我们先在高雄试用试办那整个状况如果顺畅的话以后我们就是往其他车站来推广是 那我们也发现说这个目前在就是进行了这个工程造价好像蛮高的那未来在其他的车站在设置的时候还是会需要这么大的一个工程费用吗"},{"start":322.268,"end":341.073,"text":"這個部分的話確實以目前看來這個案子的經費是很大但是因為這裡面有牽涉到設計如果將來我們採取這個這個部分的這樣的形式那在其他的車站的話因為設計費用已經有包括在這邊了所以看是不是可以把費用往下降"},{"start":343.513,"end":362.018,"text":"接下來我想請教有關勞動條件的問題我們看到台鐵的企業工會提出了勞資爭議的調解總共有12項想請問部長或董事長對於他們的訴求您的看法如何"},{"start":364.4,"end":388.945,"text":"跟委員報告其實這12項這個工會的這個議題我們都非常的重視我也多次的跟他們的這個理事長還有相關的人員討論過那針對這裡面最重要的兩項其實我們在就是一個是夜點會跟這個主管家級的部分我們已經在通過我們的董事會來同意那夜點會的話我們從120"},{"start":390.945,"end":415.287,"text":"快錢的話那麼提升到最高可以到400塊那這個主板加息的話也提升大概都是50%以上的這個額度所以這一部分的話我們現在已經送往交通部在陳河中所以最近就會核定了是嗎交通部全力支持這兩個議案所以在這邊我們也很興建這個台鐵公司這個善意的一個回應"},{"start":416.388,"end":442.413,"text":"那目前就是宣布有關這個夜點費就是調升三倍了從120到400對那有關這個加擠的部分也有提升所以我覺得這部分我們是很肯定的那除了這個之外我們希望就是說對於其他的訴求我們也可以也是希望能夠有一些進度跟回應會的這部我們也持續在檢討會進行中"},{"start":443.717,"end":467.541,"text":"OK好謝謝鄭董事長那鄭董事長請先回座好了接下來我想請問有部長就是有關這個監理業務的問題因為我們看到在中台灣就是南投嘉義雲林都有兩處這個監理站包括監理分站那以彰化來說26鄉鎮123萬的人口目前就只有一個"},{"start":471.322,"end":495.128,"text":"監禮站是位在張北的花壇所以對於我們張南的甚至很遙遠的這個西藍角的部分大成方院竹塘二營這邊如果有相關的這個監禮業務要辦的時候對他們來說是非常遙遠所以很多這邊西藍角的鄉親遇到本席的時候都有在反映說希望在張南可以設這個監禮分站"},{"start":497.188,"end":514.692,"text":"那是不是請那個部長可以承諾跟委員報告這個部分我知道彰化其實浮雲非常遼闊那所以我們現在有用這個行動監理車的方式先短期先處理就是說我們有些行動監理車固定時間會到某些鄉鎮目前有嗎"},{"start":515.433,"end":536.646,"text":"目前應該是有啦目前是有有在做行動監理車的部分會先做那另外就是委員在講的張南的監理站我們現在先優先我們去跟彰化縣政府也好或者是說找地區的鄉公所大家來合作因為如果你還要蓋再找地那還要一段時間那如果可以用他現在的公所可以跟我們合屬辦公或者是衛生"},{"start":537.546,"end":556.89,"text":"所可以跟我們合署辦公的話 我們會優先來處理 優先來辦理好 那就是就部長回覆的這個答案我是可以接受啦那可是我希望有一個進度 是不是 那進度我們後續再跟委員報告 會後是不是請那個相關的主管 沒問題 沒問題 跟我們這邊聯繫一下 沒問題 沒問題好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時30分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長及鄭董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。今天委員會針對「臺鐵各地車站旅客安全措施檢討、改善員工職場安全及勞動條件」進行專題報告，本席首先針對有關車站的安全問題，我們看到從今年4月到10月，短短半年之間就發生了7件臺鐵員工遭受暴力攻擊事件，針對這樣子屢次發生的事件，我想對於臺鐵員工在工作上也會承受很大壓力。在這個部分，不曉得交通部有沒有比較積極的對策，可以加強臺鐵員工在上班、執勤時的安全？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，其實臺鐵公司針對這些案件也都相當注意，也很支持我們的員工，在法律訴訟上面，他們有提供法律上面的支持。另外一方面，也有在討論有沒有要裝密錄器這件事，但這個部分還沒有得到員工的同意，有些員工覺得不需要再裝這個設備。另外，針對保全的部分，今天也有討論到，我們也朝向未來保全人力如果可以增加，還有鐵警的人力如果可以增加，我們會儘量來爭取增加的員額。還有一點是，對於員工的訓練，就是維安的訓練，這個部分可能我覺得臺鐵公司也應該有作為，對於員工如何保護自己的作為應該也要做一定的訓練，這個部分應該臺鐵公司也有在做。董事長有沒有需要補充的？"],["陳委員素月：董事長要補充一下嗎？簡單補充一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：大概我們就朝向剛才部長講的那個方向在做，尤其是列車上的列車長及站上人員的自我防衛方式，相對的，等於是要制止不法人員的部分，我們有這種訓練。另外，如果是受到旅客辱罵的這些部分，我們已經有設立法務的資源，如果員工要提告的話，我們會協助我們的員工，以保護他在職場上的安全。"],["陳委員素月：我們也希望交通部跟臺鐵公司要去思考如何比較周到、全面性的可以去防範這樣子的事件發生。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：除了遭遇蓄意的暴力攻擊之外，我們也看到10月27號在高雄捷運有發生一件高中女生落軌身亡的意外事件，對於整個軌道運輸的月臺的乘客安全問題，我想這個安全也是包括員工，因為我們剛剛提到的臺鐵員工被攻擊，他是被推落到軌道。"],["陳部長世凱：對，推落軌道。"],["陳委員素月：在高雄捷運是高中女生落軌，可能是自己跌下去的，所以對於月臺上的安全問題，交通部有沒有一些比較具體可以推動的改善措施？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，除了剛剛在講的那些措施之外，我們對於一些車站的月臺門也開始在做精進，目前高雄站應該實驗性的月臺門已經做得差不多了，明年3月就會安裝完成，如果實驗過後可以的話，我們希望在重要的車站，尤其是人潮比較眾多、風險係數比較高的地方先來裝月臺門。除了臺鐵之外，高鐵其實也會朝這個方向，未來高鐵應該是每一個車站都會有月臺門。"],["陳委員素月：我們看到目前臺鐵做的月臺門跟高鐵是不一樣的，是屬於纜繩式。"],["陳部長世凱：對，因為臺鐵的車型比較多種、比較多樣化，因為它每一個車子的開門地方不一樣，跟高鐵不一樣，高鐵是固定的地方有車門，但臺鐵每一個車型不同的話，車的開門地方都不一樣。"],["陳委員素月：是，纜繩式的月臺門目前就是臺鐵採用的設計。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：目前還在測試階段嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，現在在測試，我們預計在明年3月可以完成安裝。"],["陳委員素月：是高雄站，還是全部？"],["鄭董事長光遠：就是高雄的部分。"],["陳委員素月：高雄站。"],["陳部長世凱：我們先在高雄試用、試辦。"],["陳委員素月：在高雄試辦。"],["陳部長世凱：整個狀況如果順暢的話，以後我們就是往其他車站來推廣。"],["陳委員素月：我們也發現到，目前在進行的這個工程造價好像蠻高的，未來其他車站在設置的時候，還是會需要這麼大的工程費用嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：關於這個部分，確實以目前看來，這個案子的經費是很大，但因為這裡面有牽涉到設計，如果將來我們也採取這樣的形式，那麼在其他的車站，因為設計費用已經有包括在這邊了，所以看是不是可以把費用往下降。"],["陳委員素月：好。接下來我想請教的是有關勞動條件的問題，我們看到臺鐵企業工會提出了勞資爭議調解，總共有12項，想請問部長或者是董事長，對於他們的訴求，您的看法如何？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，其實這12項的工會議題我們都非常重視，我也多次跟他們的理事長及相關人員討論過，針對這裡面最重要的兩項，是夜點費跟主管加給部分，已經通過我們的董事會同意，夜點費從120塊錢最高可以提升到400塊，主管加給也提升，大概都是50%以上的額度，這一部分我們現在已經送交通部，在陳核中。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：所以最近就會核定了，是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：會，交通部全力支持這兩個議案。"],["陳委員素月：在這邊我們也很欣見臺鐵公司的善意回應，目前宣布夜點費調升3倍，從120到400。"],["鄭董事長光遠：對。"],["陳委員素月：有關加給部分也有提升，所以我覺得這部分我們是很肯定的。除了這個之外，對於其他的訴求，我們也希望能夠有一些進度跟回應。"],["鄭董事長光遠：會的，這部分我們也持續檢討，會精進中。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝鄭董事長，鄭董事長請先回座。","接下來我想請問部長有關監理業務的問題，我們看到在中臺灣的南投、嘉義、雲林都有兩處監理站，包括監理分站，以彰化來說，26個鄉鎮、123萬人口目前就只有1個監理站，是位在彰北的花壇，對於彰南甚至很遙遠的西南角部分，像大城、芳苑、竹塘、二林這邊，如果有相關監理業務要辦的時候，對他們來說是非常遙遠，所以很多西南角的鄉親遇到本席時都反映希望在彰南可以設監理分站，是不是可以請部長承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，這個部分我知道彰化其實幅員非常遼闊……"],["陳委員素月：對，人口也很多。"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們現在有用行動監理車的方式，先短期處理，也就是我們有些行動監理車在固定時間會到某些鄉鎮。"],["陳委員素月：目前有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是有在做，行動監理車的部分會先做。另外，委員講的彰南監理站，我們去跟彰化縣政府或者找地區的鄉公所大家來合作，因為如果還要蓋，再找地，那還要一段時間，如果現在的公所可以跟我們合署辦公，或者是衛生所可以跟我們合署辦公的話，我們會優先來處理、優先來辦理。"],["陳委員素月：就部長回復的這個答案，我是可以接受，可是我希望有一個進度……"],["陳部長世凱：好，進度我們後續再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員素月：會後是不是請相關的主管跟我們這邊聯繫一下？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題、沒問題。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在依照剛剛宣布的休息5分鐘，5分鐘後繼續開會。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"],["主席：現在我們交通委員會繼續開會。","首先請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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為什麼下不了車這個就是被行李廂擋住下不了車那自由座開放站票其他車廂開放站票這已經回復到台鐵的狀況"},{"start":123.582,"end":140.035,"text":"以前這個年輕的時候搭台鐵只要快下車之前我都要先去卡那個車子的門因為我才下得了車我說廉價的時候要先擠到前面要先擠到前面不然你下不了車所以現在的高鐵如果品質不提升它就會變台鐵"},{"start":141.055,"end":156.966,"text":"就大家還是為了要下車我要趕快提早就要擠到門口去不然我等一下下不了車嘛所以這個會造成其實服務的量能跟品質都會大家所詬病所以短期是不是應該有一些新的做法短期應該在新車廂沒有進來之前應該先去研議"},{"start":159.386,"end":181.112,"text":"譬如說怎麼去因為不能隨便改造車廂但是在管理上可不可以著手譬如說小件的行李宣導放上面小件的行李因為小件行李都把它放在那個行李放置的區域大件行李就放大件行李又不能搬上去上面所以部長這個可不可以"},{"start":182.028,"end":205.312,"text":"跟局長研議一下跟台鐵公司研議一下跟高鐵公司研議一下短期在舊新車廂還沒進來舊車廂怎麼處理對這個確實是大家現在覺得困擾的問題現在旅客越來越多行李也越來越多但是我們的車廂的量能大概就是這個樣子那所以辦法我們跟鐵道局也好跟高鐵公司也好我們會一起來研商看要怎麼協助"},{"start":206.232,"end":230.917,"text":"對我要為這些在搭高鐵的這些民眾消費者講講話這個真的要想個辦法盡量沒有辦法100%解決但是展現我們要解決這個問題的態度跟做法是很重要的另外這個一個小事像這種我們都要去注意像這個監理站道安講席播放這個播放簡體制"},{"start":232.662,"end":254.599,"text":"我是覺得這個其實是很不妥 沒關係 小事 小事坐下來簡體制常常會有 但是政府機關 民間大家就算了有時候書寫方便 有時候為了什麼其他問題但政府機關一定要特別去督促就是在政府的公文書 政府的相關的這些宣傳品上面不應該用簡體制"},{"start":256.618,"end":271.188,"text":"反體制是中華民國才特有的我們這個國家在整體這種文字文化的上面這個部長對 這個我們會特別去了解特別注意一下常常會有啦 常常會有委員今天提到我們就有發現發現了就要趕快"},{"start":272.769,"end":300.4,"text":"對 你看民眾就會很在意這個大家就直接上網就直接就把你寫出來了所以這個不只監理所不只監理站的道安講習而是應該在政府交通部下屬對 我們下屬的所有的廠站都要注意這點這是common sense這個應該要做好接下來這個鐵路警察不足這個鐵路警察不足高鐵公司我看起來他們的保全"},{"start":301.687,"end":306.532,"text":"就大概拼了一百七十幾個保全嘛是 比較多 台鐵公司有沒有打算要這樣做"},{"start":308.044,"end":335.036,"text":"台鐵公司目前正在盤點哪些車站需要保全那人力一定是朝增加的方向在走朝增加的方向因為他車站多那需要維護的也多那一方面我們會爭取內政部把鐵路警察的員額盡量再補多一點那二方面因為台鐵公司有很多是關鍵基礎設施我們會專案的來跟國土辦來申請專案的保全人那個警力進來協助那保全的人力也一定要再增加"},{"start":335.976,"end":349.828,"text":"部長我想從你當助理從我開始當委員開始要增加警察人力我們已經講了20幾年都是困難對 都是困難太了解了所以與其你看我今天連警察人力我都不想問你了因為這個"},{"start":352.27,"end":370.375,"text":"不只我們鐵路單位要政府各個單位都在含警力不足所以我們可以解決的方法像高鐵公司他就直接177個保全那台鐵公司應該可以考量這是一個方向我覺得這個比較快我們保全優先來盤點優先來盤點增加人力"},{"start":376.016,"end":397.064,"text":"那最後一個問題就是海線鐵路雙軌的進度我想這個大概每一年交通部都要我辦公室來專案報告每一年我們也在爭取在討論那現在呢因為分兩個部分雙軌是中央可以直接處理所以本席過去一直主張不要再等地方政府了就是你要等台中市政府"},{"start":398.665,"end":417.083,"text":"雙軌因為高價需要市政府依照分配比例需要市政府出錢那雙軌不用市政府出錢所以過去本席本來很希望雙軌高價一起來因為這個是最有效率對地方最好但是如果我們一直要等他的高價市政府一直不願意配合"},{"start":417.796,"end":425.225,"text":"那不能再等 雙軌就只好先做所以交通部接受我的建議 雙軌呢總共經費是161.95億 中央全額負擔那現在在中規的二階環評照進度走"},{"start":433.393,"end":448.52,"text":"那現本席也今年你們來報告說我也要求局長說持續跟市府溝通那現在呢高價的部分跟市府溝通有沒有新的進度高價化的部分交通部全力支持那市府的進度我是不是請局長"},{"start":450.141,"end":467.75,"text":"因為市政府最新送進來的報告跟我們所謂經費分擔上面的這個議題還沒有達成完全的這樣的一個了解 還是不願意就對了不願意依照中央地方分配的比例來做我們還要再來做溝通跟協調好 你持續溝通啦但是我覺得效果很有限啦"},{"start":468.69,"end":492.028,"text":"反正他就吃定你啦財政收支劃分已經割一塊去了大家也就割了嘛反正地方政府然後你該負擔的你又不願意出又要叫中央出這個就擺明不想做啦我的看法就是擺明不想做啦所以局長你一定要這個雙軌一定要照進度走啦就是照二階環評就照進度這樣走"},{"start":493.196,"end":508.83,"text":"但是不能因為高階一直在等著他的所謂這個高架化就立體化而耽誤了我們雙軌化的這個進程了解可以嗎是好 這個很重要這個部長雙軌化不會拖延對 一直也在關心這個案子好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時21分）謝謝主席，請陳部長及鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、楊局長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好，局長好。今天因為鐵道只有鄭董事長來，所以我先說明一件事情讓部長及史哲董事長溝通、了解一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們只要遇到大型的假日或者連假，高鐵現在其實平日也塞。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我上一次特別跟史哲董事長提到高鐵行李的置放，因為車廂是舊的，新的車廂正在日本打造，史哲董事長特別跟我說明，對於行李放置區……"],["陳部長世凱：空間有增加。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，空間的利用會強化。"],["陳部長世凱：會增加。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是等到新的車子來之前，現在舊的車廂，不要講連假，連平常、特別是桃園有停的，行李真的沒有地方放，造成很大的困擾，有的動線常常被放置大型行李，所以對於未來的新車廂，你們現在已經想到應該做好規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：但現行的方法裡面，你看新聞報導光復節連假有8個人搭高鐵下不了車，我想應該不只8個人，搞不好還有不知道的。為什麼下不了車？就是被行李箱擋住而下不了車。高鐵自由座開放站票、其他車廂開放站票的做法實施以後，已經回復到臺鐵的狀況。以前年輕的時候搭臺鐵，只要快下車之前，我都要去卡車子的門才下得了車，我是說連假的時候。"],["陳部長世凱：要先擠到前面。"],["蔡委員其昌：要擠到前面，不然下不了車。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以現在的高鐵如果品質不提升，就會變臺鐵。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是大家還是為了下車，要趕快提早擠到門口去，不然等一下下不了車，這個會造成服務的量能及品質為大家所詬病，所以短期在新車廂沒有進來之前，因為不能隨便改造車廂，但是在管理上可不可以著手，譬如宣導將小件的行李放上面，因為小件的行李如果都放在行李放置的區域，大件行李就放不下，大件行李又不能搬上去上面，所以部長，可不可以跟局長、臺鐵公司、高鐵公司研議一下，短期在新車廂還沒進來以前，舊車廂怎麼處理？"],["陳部長世凱：這個確實是大家覺得困擾的問題，現在旅客越來越多，行李也越來越多，但是我們車廂的量能大概就是這個樣子。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳部長世凱：所以針對這個辦法，我們跟鐵道局也好、跟高鐵公司也好，會一起來研商，看要怎麼協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：我要為這些搭高鐵的民眾、消費者講講話，真的要想個辦法，沒有辦法100%解決，但是要展現我們解決這個問題的態度及做法，這很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外是一個小事，像這種我們都要去注意，就是監理站的道安講習播放簡體字，我覺得這個是很不妥的。簡體字常常會有，民間大家就算了，有時候為了書寫方便，有時候為了什麼其他問題，但政府機關一定要特別督促在政府的公文書、相關的宣傳品上面不應該用簡體字。繁體字是中華民國才特有的，我們國家在整體文字、文化上面，部長……"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個我們會特別去了解、特別注意。"],["蔡委員其昌：特別注意一下，因為常常會有。"],["陳部長世凱：委員今天提到，我們發現了，就要趕快處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，民眾會很在意，大家就直接上網寫出來。不只監理站的道安講習，而是應該在交通部下屬都應該再三……"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們下屬的所有場站都要注意這點。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這是common 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有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長 謝謝部長 請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌"},{"start":26.884,"end":51.589,"text":"這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行"},{"start":53.349,"end":81.886,"text":"所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂 好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題 我會跟他一起合作是 謝謝部長全力支持 部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性"},{"start":82.919,"end":98.022,"text":"當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足"},{"start":98.723,"end":119.604,"text":"那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊"},{"start":120.601,"end":147.394,"text":"所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長"},{"start":148.514,"end":173.929,"text":"這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛"},{"start":175.08,"end":193.25,"text":"跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是 我們配電級還有另外一個"},{"start":194.59,"end":215.434,"text":"計畫在進行 如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是 而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":220.434,"end":239.986,"text":"對 那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候"},{"start":241.767,"end":248.921,"text":"但暫時發生的時候 它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總"},{"start":252.665,"end":279.97,"text":"這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下"},{"start":280.745,"end":296.075,"text":"因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果"},{"start":297.216,"end":324.928,"text":"SMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面"},{"start":326.949,"end":342.305,"text":"另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法"},{"start":343.166,"end":356.609,"text":"那李蘇雅也在 還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為"},{"start":358.109,"end":381.377,"text":"現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話"},{"start":383.164,"end":404.612,"text":"有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國"},{"start":406.384,"end":426.456,"text":"國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好 美國也好 日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器 對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議"},{"start":435.12,"end":462.5,"text":"有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价"},{"start":463.536,"end":479.943,"text":"去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎"},{"start":481.212,"end":495.377,"text":"我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量"},{"start":501.186,"end":504.308,"text":"5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到"},{"start":516.079,"end":537.767,"text":"現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已 馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026 現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以 我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是"},{"start":541.067,"end":568.914,"text":"對 就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face 1 Face 2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式"},{"start":569.696,"end":594.317,"text":"所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了"},{"start":595.287,"end":611.236,"text":"另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的"},{"start":619.638,"end":637.333,"text":"現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作"},{"start":638.013,"end":655.309,"text":"它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站"},{"start":655.629,"end":681.067,"text":"你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷"},{"start":681.947,"end":706.03,"text":"戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範"},{"start":707.78,"end":720.576,"text":"對 現在是在示範對 你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了"},{"start":722.893,"end":746.273,"text":"因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对"},{"start":746.693,"end":769.566,"text":"但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請龔部長跟水利署署長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長跟水利署署長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，大概之前我提到過在北高雄我的選區還有5條沒有規劃的市管區排，這部分我希望能夠儘快啟動治理計畫，大概在路竹有3條，還有永安及橋頭，這部分應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局，署長，麻煩你了解一下，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：好。"],["邱委員志偉：這都是我的選區，這些都很重要，如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟指導的話很難去進行，所以這部分是不是請署裡面來幫忙，署長，好嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：跟委員報告，我們在下一期計畫會馬上補助地方政府做規劃的工作，然後就會按照委員的意見趕快納入下一個階段辦理，沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：回去我會跟高雄市政府水利局講。"],["林署長元鵬：沒問題，我們會跟他們一起合作。"],["邱委員志偉：說署裡面會全力支持。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：部長會全力支持嘛？部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：支持、支持。"],["邱委員志偉：第二個議題想請教能源轉型的韌性，當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題：第一個，能源結構太集中化，大概是天然氣，天然氣的儲量又不夠，天數也不足；第二個，電網防禦力不足，防禦力不足主要是不夠全面、主要是以氣候與設備事故為主，如果戰時有駭客入侵、戰時攻擊、能源封鎖等等，這個也應該納入電網防禦力的的提升；另外，能源轉型的戰略空隙，我從反核到返核，反對「反」到返回的「返」，就是說如果要返回核電，最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR，但是SMR要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉，所以在這種情況，綠電、再生能源也上不來的話，這個戰略空隙怎麼處理？所以第一個問題請教一下部長，台電在五千多億的韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在戰時的戰略防護？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為這個五千多億主要是大型超高壓電網的分散。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分並沒有包括防駭或者戰時的攻擊等等，主要是供電的穩定，是不是？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們5,645億是用於輸電級的韌性強化。"],["邱委員志偉：所以就是輸電的穩定，包括極端氣候的影響等等，但並沒有包括在戰時的這些因應嘛？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們配電級還有另外一個計畫在進行當中。"],["邱委員志偉：如果沒有的話，我是建議針對防禦的部分要增加如果戰時的時候怎麼樣確保供電的穩定及強化電網的防禦力，這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["邱委員志偉：而不是在這5,645億裡面，我們特別針對戰時的時候，不曉得部長您的意見怎麼樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：剛剛提到的五千多億，主要是因為上一次超高壓電太過集中在一個地方，所以我們把它比較多元……"],["邱委員志偉：極端氣候造成供電的不穩定，這個部分是針對這個部分強化，但我剛所提到就是，如果戰時的時候，一旦戰事發生，它成為攻擊目標的時候，我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化？這個你們可能要另外再提一個計畫，王總。"],["王總經理耀庭：這個部分有在準備，可能某些部分不宜太公開。"],["邱委員志偉：好，有在準備啦？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，有在準備。"],["邱委員志偉：有在準備我就比較安心了。另外，你們對SMR的相關研究可能也要有一定的期程表，SMR是未來可能的核能發電的措施跟作為，這個部分可能要有一個明確的時程表，我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在研究方的話是核管所，他們有投入4年大概是8億的經費還是多少正在研擬，對經濟部來講，將來如果SMR的話，我們是使用方、應用方，所以我們密切地觀察……"],["邱委員志偉：研發方與我們無關，我們是用其他技術取得授權？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，我們現在密切觀察，因為全世界……雖然叫SMR，但就有不同的冷卻技術。"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：正都在推動當中。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不投入研發，我們只在應用階段？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們是觀察哪些在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的，那我們就可以引用。"],["邱委員志偉：考慮在應用面啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們是應用面。"],["邱委員志偉：另外關鍵的礦產就變成不管是美、日雙方或者是美、中……"],["龔部長明鑫：稀土。"],["邱委員志偉：雙方在角力的一個重要戰略物資，這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法，李署長也在，台電王總經理也在，我們有沒有建立相關保障關鍵礦物的供應措施，或者關鍵礦物保障與回收相關作為？現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們現在有一個計畫是打算從明年就開始推動，分成兩個部分，一個當然是跟國際間整個供應……因為我們在供應鏈裡面是屬於需求方，雖然是間接需求……"],["邱委員志偉：需求方就要確保穩定供應嘛。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，第一個是配合國際間整體的因應作法，這是第一個；第二個是我們本身的部分，有兩個部分，一個是透過既有的回收再提煉、再精煉，另外一個，事實上我們也跟一些稀土的生產供應者討論怎麼樣讓我們臺灣精煉的……"],["邱委員志偉：能不能提升到國與國的合作？你現在是跟個別廠商嘛，有沒有辦法提升到國與國？比如說主要的這些供應國。"],["龔部長明鑫：國與國的部分，就是剛剛提到的，就是國際供應鏈會有一致性的作法，包括歐盟也好、美國也好或日本也好……"],["邱委員志偉：現在中國依靠稀土或重要的礦產作為它跟美國談判的一個重要武器，所以我們必須要更確保我們的供應面沒有問題，所以必須要國與國之間做一些協商或協議，我們有沒有針對供應國或來源國有國際協議？"],["龔部長明鑫：我不方便講是哪個國家，但是有跟我們在做一些討論。"],["邱委員志偉：必須確保它的供應沒有問題啦，這不只是國家安全，這也是產業的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外有關離岸風電，當初是國產化，如果鬆綁之後，中國的一些經驗，包括鋼鐵、石化、面板等等，這都是用低價去搶市場，如果國產化鬆綁之後，中國會不會用紅色供應鏈來低價滲透，讓我們的國產化受到相關影響？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們禁止用中國的相關零組件。"],["邱委員志偉：如果它是洗產地之類的，你們查得出來嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會查。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不能讓中國這些低價的變成我們離岸風電的主要來源或是主要供應商，這不行喔。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，一定。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，2025年風電的原目標現在有沒有再調整？風電的裝置能量。"],["龔部長明鑫：5.3GW。"],["邱委員志偉：是什麼時候到5.3GW？5.3GW是什麼時候的目標？"],["李署長君禮：2025年，我們在2026年的11月會達到。"],["邱委員志偉：現在是多少？"],["李署長君禮：現在大概將近是三點多GW。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，三出頭而已嘛。"],["李署長君禮：是，但是我們今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工，所以應該到明年2026年11月……"],["邱委員志偉：現在馬上要2026年了，可以到5.3GW嗎？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以如期達標？"],["李署長君禮：可以，我們現在的計畫推進到目前為止看起來大概都順利。"],["邱委員志偉：是很順利嗎？"],["李署長君禮：是，就是說我們現在要完工的大概是Phase 1、Phase 2……"],["邱委員志偉：我認為不是很順利啦，浮式的風電呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：浮動式的，是不是？"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個是正在草擬跟規劃，方向也會往前，不過那是稍微比較後……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有包括在5.3GW裡面嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有包括在這裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：署長，你說這是很順利在推動，所以5.3GW在明年底可以達標？"],["李署長君禮：是，明年的11月。"],["邱委員志偉：可以達標？"],["李署長君禮：是，完工。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得如果有任何障礙，法律上的問題、政治上的問題，一定要讓業者、開發商很清楚了解。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，會。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得他們跌跌撞撞一路走來好像碰到很多的問題。"],["李署長君禮：一開始確實蠻多問題的，漁業問題、補償問題，還有供應鏈的問題，不過現在推動已經陸陸續續完成，目前我們在商轉的大概就有440座離岸風電風機。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，另外有關加氫站，目前全國也只有兩座，一個在臺南、一個在高雄，對於加氫站，我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣？方董。部長，這是您那時當主委的時候推動的。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在是示範性。"],["邱委員志偉：示範性，然後呢？中期目標呢？因為你說2050年我們有10%的發電要靠氫能喔，目前這個進度根本就停滯不前，只有兩座示範……"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，加氫站目前中油已經蓋好，我們是跟交通部合作，它是所謂的低碳運輸、低碳載具的部分，我們會配合交通部，交通部會配合提供氫能公車，我們會依照交通部的規劃，哪裡有氫能公車的路線，我們中油公司就搭配去設氫能加氫站。"],["邱委員志偉：你一定要有明確的政策指引，因為這個成本很高，技術也沒有非常成熟，這個還在試辦嘛，對不對？"],["李署長君禮：還在試辦，目前是跟……"],["邱委員志偉：需求也不是那麼穩定嘛。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以業者有沒有信心去投入，它沒有信心就不會去投入嘛。"],["李署長君禮：目前我們是要補貼，因為這是交通部無碳載具裡面的計畫，交通部補貼公車，我們會補助氫能。"],["邱委員志偉：就怕戰略不清楚，半途而廢，或是沒有辦法順利推動，你看興達海基就是這樣，最後你看，就賠掉五、六十億了，國產化也沒有達成，技術也沒有上來，到最後還是一樣要終止了。所以我們怕這個也是這樣，你說2050年有10%，這是部長您當主委的時候所提出的願景目標，現在你還在試辦。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，現在是在試辦沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：你要有明確的戰略目標，政策要怎麼去導引，短、中、長期都要有計畫，我覺得現在只有兩個示範，一個高雄、一個臺南，做完就沒有下一步了。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為氫能有分成幾個部分，一個是怎麼樣產氫，然後氫怎麼運輸，第三個是運用，運用的話，剛剛提到的車用是一部分，它也可以用來發電，就是您剛剛提到的，將來可能接近10%可以用……"],["邱委員志偉：再去盤點一下目前我們國家的氫能政策在哪裡。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但是現在我們的問題就是產氫跟運送氫，這是比較大的問題，國際間現在也一直在討論這個部分，日本是比較早開始嘛，但是在運輸的部分，他們也遭遇到一些成本上的問題，不過我們還是會持續看看怎麼樣來……"],["邱委員志偉：日本的經驗我們可以學習，但是他們比我們早了大概15、20年。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員質詢，謝謝部長還有相關單位的備詢。等楊瓊瓔委員質詢完，我們就休息。","我們請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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接下來詢問大家的問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局局長。"],["主席：蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：局長好。因為明天川普和習近平就要會面，大家都很關心，同時有很多媒體報導或國人也很擔心，特別是有一個詞叫做到底川習會會不會出賣臺灣，我覺得把這個事情講清楚，大家就不至於擔心。我相信國安局應該也有很多套劇本，有演練過很多不同的狀況，請問大家在講會不會出賣臺灣，何謂出賣臺灣？根據你們的分析，有哪幾個程度的差別？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我想這是新聞的用語，我們從政策的分析上來講，剛剛媒體朋友在會前也提出一些問題，我有做一些說明。基本上，看起來這次的川習會還是以經貿議題為主，或許會帶到地緣政治，包括臺灣的問題。"],["葉委員元之：因為川普已經講了，臺灣議題也是其中一個，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對！國務卿也對外公開說明在會談當中，不會以臺灣議題來換取中國經貿優惠的措施，戰爭部長也這樣講，所以……"],["葉委員元之：對！我現在要問的就是不會以放棄臺灣或出賣臺灣，那定義到底是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有用到這個字，這個是新聞用語。"],["葉委員元之：譬如說，出賣臺灣會直接講反對臺灣獨立，還是說在未來假設有戰爭的時候美國不會保護臺灣，還是說美國會減少賣防衛性武器給臺灣，依國安局的評估所謂出賣臺灣的定義到底是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有……"],["葉委員元之：完全沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：出賣臺灣是新聞用語，我們從政策面……"],["葉委員元之：那你們的評估呢？你們評估可能會有哪幾種結果？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，從政策面來了解，有可能會碰觸到臺灣問題，也有可能不會碰觸到臺灣問題。"],["葉委員元之：對，如果碰觸的話？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如碰觸到臺灣問題的話，美國官方的立場講得很清楚，不會用臺灣問題來換取中國相關的經貿優惠措施。"],["葉委員元之：不會嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：不管是國務院或戰爭部都有類似的表述，所以非常清楚。"],["葉委員元之：對，但這樣講還是很抽象，就是不會用臺灣問題……假設用臺灣問題去換的話會是什麼狀況？你總是要做各種評估嘛！如果用臺灣問題換的話是什麼狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛跟媒體也做過說明，美中峰會他們討論的議題，一定都有做過非常縝密的幕僚作業。"],["葉委員元之：對啦！局長，你這個都是很樂觀評估嘛！以國安局的立場，當然要料敵從寬，你不可能說因為我覺得他不會，我就不評估嘛！我現在是問你的評估，大家會討論因為這是個議題，那會有好的狀況跟壞的狀況，我們現在當然希望是好的狀況，可是如果是壞的狀況，到底是什麼？我覺得把這部分講清楚，大家就不至於擔心了嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["葉委員元之：所謂的出賣臺灣或以臺灣議題去換取經貿，那臺灣議題可以換到什麼？是怎麼樣犧牲臺灣利益去換的？"],["蔡局長明彥：但美國官方立場已經講沒有這個議題，不會用臺灣議題來換取經貿，已經沒有了。"],["葉委員元之：沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：已經沒有所謂換取的問題。"],["葉委員元之：那是盧比歐的講法嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！盧比歐的講法。"],["葉委員元之：但是川普有時候他……"],["蔡局長明彥：川普也講他非常尊重臺灣，他也是這樣講。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我當然也希望是這樣結果啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：是、是，因為這是政策立場。"],["葉委員元之：但我覺得國安局評估事情都很樂觀，用這種非常樂觀的態度去看待非常嚴肅的國安問題……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們是全面了解，而且他們的溝通管道非常暢通。"],["葉委員元之：第二個問題，川普見了黃仁勳，然後川普講他會致力將關鍵晶片移到本土來製造，因為我們都知道川普之前曾經講過臺灣都偷走了美國的晶片產業，美國商務部長也一直強調希望晶片生產可以五五分、產能一半一半，就是任何一個晶片生產商在國內的生產量要跟海外客戶跟其進口的產量是一半一半，未來也會朝向這個方向，我們就會擔心臺灣矽盾會不會因此就沒有了。我昨天看到卓榮泰院長說：不會！臺灣不會有這些問題，因為臺灣在經濟、科技、區域和平穩定上面跟美國的共同利益都很大，但問題這是現在，假設之後我們的晶片，就像川普見了黃仁勳所講的希望把這些東西移過去的話，那你們的評估是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是，因為就經貿談判還是由行政院在進行……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我是問從國安的角度啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：委員剛剛所提到的關切，事實上談判團隊也有對外做過說明：第一個，在談判過程當中沒有出現所謂的五五分提議，這是第一個。第二個，就算有的話，我們政府也不會去接受這樣的立場，所以我想談判團隊既然有這樣的說明，我們就尊重他們的立場。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，請回。謝謝局長。","接下來詢答的是賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5184b55c1a95c3eeb014a9ab9b55a87a24a3c61875d63c7135581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:25:08 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10:35:44","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T10:25:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T10:35:44+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.40159375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.45221875,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.535343750000003,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.028468750000002,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.09971875,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.94721875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.735343750000002,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.18596875,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.89471875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.33284375,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.67034375,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.28596875,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.34909375,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.44409375,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.84846875,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.13034375000001,"end":81.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.61721875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.33846875,"end":87.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.59534375000001,"end":98.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.34034375,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.24721875,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.94284375000001,"end":105.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.42784375000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.09846875000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.00096875000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.58721875,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.35409375,"end":123.85971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.28159375000001,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.41596875000002,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.66034375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.49971875,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.30534375000002,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.47346875,"end":140.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.57409375,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.70471875,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.60096875000002,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.54971875,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.49471875,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.98346875000001,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.63284375,"end":173.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.16409375,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.58409375000002,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.16909375,"end":200.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.35846875000001,"end":228.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"en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謝謝主席我請環境部長還有農業部長來 請彭部長 陳部長委員好來來來想說王一鳴委員講很多來我們現在這個廚餘也不要太多的政治啦我覺得這要專業啦這樣醫療感患不要意識形態太嚴重啦這樣的話大家都很辛苦講到最後轉私交了"},{"start":34.229,"end":59.188,"text":"好 廚餘的方式 第一就是以前爭取了一地嘛 過了六十年了我們這樣就過了嘛 第二就是文化 文化是最不好的啦每件東西都拿去燒 燒成一了百了但是這個是循環經濟 或者是能源轉換這個是還有那個廚餘一大堆水分"},{"start":61.128,"end":78.272,"text":"脫水後再去燒 還是直接把水帶進去啊 帶進去整個焚化爐那個溫度會下降啊等等啊 那個是很麻煩的事情啊你都不要去啊 我去焚化爐 欸 柏丁你也去過焚化爐啊 咱們平常都會去過第三就是煙霾嘛 像台中市現在用煙霾煙霾也是炒糕糕啊 沒效益啊"},{"start":82.759,"end":95.347,"text":"再過來的堆肥像南京的一座 南京都會堆肥也超過 都嫌惡設施所以你的廚餘65% 70%都是蒸煮料吃的"},{"start":99.783,"end":123.522,"text":"第一是能源熱量轉換最好 換熱力最好對不對 五弟兄所以你說要用珍珠 我是絕百分之百贊成你說要統一珍珠 我也百分之百贊成你說要有五個位 要去做你說剛才我們陳部長說這個珍珠廠也是用鹹的但是我要跟你說你如果設立風化爐的旁邊就好了"},{"start":128.542,"end":131.906,"text":"風化爐旁邊都土地都有啊那不是很大面積嘛你風化爐旁邊風化爐本來就嫌惡事實大家都嚇到不得了但是它都回歸真了所以放在那裡沒問題"},{"start":142.571,"end":162.255,"text":"副部長你覺得怎麼樣委員你的這個建議非常好啦我們會考慮啦但是我們有聽到一個意見說這個豬吃的東西從焚化爐來那個就髒髒臭臭的所以我這個要改變因為焚化爐現在其實都還蠻乾淨的所以這個我們會來會來評估我覺得焚化爐旁邊的空地都有膠啦第二是焚化爐旁邊的煎喔 蓋不住就全都放在床上了嘛"},{"start":169.045,"end":193.628,"text":"那你說這個豬的熱量轉換因為豬是雜食性所以牠吃這個變成飯肉這是最有效率的啦所以當然黑水盲現在說的黑水盲但是黑水盲吃起來那個糖到底是可以利用嗎到底有安全嗎我們也不知道好 所以你們要設這個"},{"start":196.272,"end":210.292,"text":"集中徵處 我改期期我跟委員報告 現在有四個縣市 九個案子屏東有六個案子申請兩個已經 農業部大概已經同意四個在同意 兩個還在審查"},{"start":213.336,"end":215.197,"text":"你現在車子上去"},{"start":240.27,"end":247.316,"text":"車子去 湯啊倒倒下去 就要斟酌啊你出來 又要加湯啊因為湯啊 你的皮再出來 要用不一樣的湯啊這就跟醫療一樣啊 買一批準備室 買一批消毒室一批的皮再出來是分開的 一個蒙一批 一個蒙出來啊 湯啊都不一樣啊 你人要怎麼消毒 火的什麼都是會汙染啊你車子要怎麼消毒"},{"start":266.312,"end":285.916,"text":"你不可以一樣一支一支 又一樣又穿什麼 等於白做的你的湯啊 本身搞不好都汙染 湯要怎麼抓這個倒是 都要用那個沒有到醫療標準至少有半個醫療標準來 我再來請陳部長問我們現在廚餘在企業差不多四五十萬隻嘛 啊 裡面臥底差不多二十萬隻 對不對"},{"start":291.497,"end":302.921,"text":"46.6萬隻啦 出於洋豬場 434戶啦那裡面黑豬 我們保種豬黑豬 白豬 黑那差不多20萬隻差不多 17萬 差不多啊 都在屏東比較多嘛 芬林 屏東屏東 屏東 屏東比較多因為黑豬的生長過程滿嘛差不多一年13個月嘛 對 差不多一年左右啊 那一般白豬還是六個月而已嘛對 180天"},{"start":315.363,"end":328.836,"text":"厲害 用心來 所以這些黑白人都吃魚也不好所以吃廚藝三十年了都這樣在吃幾乎就是這個廚藝廠這個餐廳他都沒有煮就爛爛的就敲噴就死了是不是這樣出事對不對"},{"start":340.379,"end":357.583,"text":"我剛才也一直強調厨醫養豬他是一個很老的飼料只要我們落實徵主所以徵主的條件的落實的監管跟控制跟集合才是重點如果做得好的話厨醫養豬是沒問題的所以這個養豬廠本身就要教育本身就要監控要養什麼都好再來就是休醫"},{"start":365.878,"end":372.781,"text":"這個獸醫我是覺得他在這一場這個出事這一場是說10月10號就開始出問題了你到10月20號在那邊說嘛那獸醫 我要一件事要跟部長說那獸醫的兩種一種是寵物的 其中一種是經濟動物的那這經濟的牛啦 牛仔啦這個那你給獸醫 獸醫一個月薪水差不多多少啦"},{"start":391.55,"end":419.265,"text":"沒有 如果受益的話公職的 但是我們從今年六月 應該是六月開始有一個受益不開業獎金每個月增加一萬到三萬所以一個公職的受益一戶的薪水差不多多少差不多 資深的差不多七到十萬七到十萬 啊如果像這個民間的這個你看這張 你要看這酬勞 怕死人就酬勞是要逼付"},{"start":420.538,"end":427.805,"text":"我現在也要替我們全國的獸醫師講話我覺得我們對於這種經濟動物的獸醫師他們的責任非常重大他們是監護我們整個國家的農業會崩盤耶你這次這麼假這招你在發的我去獸醫師這招是你陳部長發的"},{"start":444.735,"end":458.384,"text":"我這樣子 你剛才講的這些收費參考我會去了解那我覺得當然只是參考啦 但是參考是有它的指標性啦我覺得我們應該增加它的福利啦300隻 以下的1個月 湊了500個不然他都用電話問問而已啊他都連來都沒有 我看他的 為投稿費都沒來啊"},{"start":466.533,"end":493.738,"text":"他要負最大的責任耶這醜啦 這很兇 這比剃頭還要兇我想這個可能跟地方政府不同縣市地方政府他的定定不過這個部分我記起來我覺得委員講得非常對我覺得在真正的對他們的一些標準一定要有系統要去提高而且是要有對於他這個能夠讓他能夠盡到這個責任所以我會請我們的房檢署會議大家的手藝都照樣做寵物"},{"start":495.095,"end":518.406,"text":"寵物跟我們的性命無關的那是給我們精神很爽的這樣而已啊 如果說大家醫生都召他做美容那也是悲慘的所以如果保護這些在做重症的醫師如何在保護這些在做經濟動物的這些醫師要給我們有期碼的保障啊要打到要死 打到要死那分數很高的耶那你看我們三五萬塊 五萬塊"},{"start":524.158,"end":550.687,"text":"我做過全國藝術的 你說對嗎我看著我看著 他們很憤怒所以我們這個授意是跟你講 這個是堆疊上去嘛我們的社會跟這個廠商你說一公斤一十塊有什麼了不起但是你這裡的人要給他尊嚴給他地位 給他收入這樣的話才能要求他高薪才能要求人家做事情啊不對"},{"start":551.533,"end":575.414,"text":"你常常把這裡弄成這樣 這太廉價了如果我不重視這個我就不會去爭取他們的不開業獎金一到三萬五萬也可以啊不開業獎金五萬塊啊 搞什麼了不起可以嗎一步一步來 我們已經今年好不容易爭取到一到三萬了然後過一段時間我們再看看但是您剛才講的民間的部分我們也會來處理"},{"start":578.075,"end":599.806,"text":"這個這種受益師是他自己去續產協會推薦的還是他自己找人的我們應該有個list嘛然後由畜牧場這邊他有一些特約受益師嘛那特約受益師不是每一天在那邊工作啦對啦 我知道啦他有減的啦 減減就對了啦但是他都沒去看嘛 他就也要順一下"},{"start":601.874,"end":614.181,"text":"我覺得這不純粹是錢的問題我覺得這個是錢很重要錢是一個因素但是特約醫師跟畜牧場之間的這個互動我覺得那才是重點我們會來檢視這個後續的獸醫師跟畜牧場之間的互動"},{"start":619.022,"end":632.113,"text":"獸醫師的地位 尊嚴有沒有給人家尊重他們的收入這三個都要 瞭解我就對不起我們全國的獸醫師瞭解 要加油啦好 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝蘇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時25分）謝謝主席。我請環境部部長還有農業部部長。"],["主席：請彭部長、陳部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛王育敏委員說很多了，我們現在的廚餘也不要太多的政治，我覺得這個要專業，跟醫療一樣，不要意識形態太嚴重，這樣的話大家都很辛苦，講到最後就失焦了。廚餘的處理方式，第一，像以前蒸煮之後就餵豬，幾十年來就是這樣做，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二，焚化是最沒有效益的，每樣東西都拿去燒，燒最簡單，一了百了，但是這是循環經濟或者是能源轉換，還有廚餘一大堆水分，脫水後再去燒，還是直接把水帶進去？帶進去的話整個焚化爐溫度會下降等等，那個是很麻煩的事情，部長，你們也有去過焚化爐，屏東那邊都有去過；第三，就是掩埋嘛，像臺中市現在用掩埋也是很臭，沒有效益啊！再過來就堆肥，像南州地區農會堆肥場也是很臭，那都是嫌惡設施，所以廚餘65%、70%通通是蒸煮後養豬，這是能源熱量轉換率最好，對不對？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，所以你說要用蒸煮，我是100%贊成；你說要統一蒸煮，我也100%贊成；你說有5個位置要去做，剛剛陳部長說蒸煮場也是會被嫌棄，但是我要跟你說，你就把它設在焚化爐旁邊就好了，焚化爐旁邊都有土地，也不需要很大的面積，焚化爐本來就是嫌惡設施，大家都罵到沒力氣了，但是它都有回饋金，對不對？所以你放在那邊是沒問題的，彭部長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你的建議非常好，我們會考慮啦！但是我們有聽到一個意見說：豬吃的東西從焚化爐來，就會髒髒臭臭的，所以這個想法要改變，因為焚化爐現在其實都還蠻乾淨的，所以我們會來評估。"],["蘇委員清泉：我是覺得焚化爐旁邊空地都夠，第二，焚化爐旁邊比較不會……反正都放在一起了嘛！那你說豬的熱量轉換，因為豬是雜食性，所以牠吃了之後變成糞尿，這是最有效率的啦，當然現在說的黑水虻，但是黑水虻養起來的那些蟲，到底是可以利用嗎？到底有沒有安全？我們也不知道。所以你們要設集中蒸煮，我給你支持。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在有4個縣市、9個案子，屏東有6個案子在申請，農業部4個已經在同意、兩個還在審查。委員說在垃圾場旁邊做，我覺得是一個還不錯的想法，也可以適度利用焚燒的熱效益來帶動，減少蒸煮的能源消耗，但是共同蒸煮一定要……因為設了以後一定要豬農願意用，豬農不願意用的時候，就比較麻煩，所以我們現在也在跟這些廚餘養豬戶在做溝通。"],["蘇委員清泉：你現在車子開進去，桶子倒進去蒸煮，出來後又用同一個桶子裝，進去跟出來的桶子要用不同的來裝。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：這就跟醫療一樣啊，要進去準備室、要進去消毒室，進去跟出來是分開的，一個門進去，另一個門出來啊！桶子也要不一樣，人要怎麼消毒、雨鞋等都是會污染到，車子也一樣要消毒，不能這樣進去就直接出來，就等於白做的啊！桶子本身可能就都污染了，那桶子要怎麼消毒？這個沒有到醫療標準，至少要有半個醫療標準。再來，請陳部長回答，現在廚餘在養豬差不多四、五十萬隻，裡面黑豬差不多20萬隻，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：46.6萬隻，廚餘養豬場434戶。"],["蘇委員清泉：裡面黑豬的保種豬差不多20萬隻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：差不多十幾萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：都在屏東比較多嗎？雲林、屏東？"],["陳部長駿季：屏東比較多。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為黑豬的生長過程慢……"],["陳部長駿季：差不多一年。"],["蘇委員清泉：13個月嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，要一年左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：一般白豬是6個月而已嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，180天。"],["蘇委員清泉：厲害，不錯，有用心啦！所以黑豬如果全都吃飼料，也不划算。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：30年來都是用廚餘在養，只不過是這個養豬場的廚餘都沒煮，就攪一攪像一般廚餘這樣就拿來餵了，是不是這樣才出事？對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我剛剛也一直強調，廚餘養豬是一個很好的飼料，只要我們落實蒸煮，所以蒸煮條件落實監管、控制跟稽核才是重點，如果做得好的話，廚餘養豬是沒問題的。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以要教育養豬場，要監控他們，用AI或什麼都好。","再來就是獸醫，我是覺得他在出事的案場……10月10號就開始出問題了，到10月20號才在說，我要在這裡跟部長說，獸醫分兩種，一種是寵物，一種是經濟動物，經濟動物像是牛、羊這些。獸醫一個月薪水大概多少？"],["陳部長駿季：如果指公職獸醫，我們從今年6月，應該是6月開始，有獸醫不開業獎金，每個月增加1萬到3萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以一個公職獸醫月薪差不多多少？"],["陳部長駿季：資深的差不多7到10萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果像民間的，你看投影片，酬勞嚇死人，比 Uber還低，我要替全國的獸醫師講話，我覺得經濟動物的獸醫師責任非常重大，他們肩負我們整個國家的農業，會崩盤耶！薪水這麼低！我記得獸醫師執照是陳部長發的。"],["陳部長駿季：你剛才講的收費參考我會去了解，當然只是參考，但是參考是有它的指標性，我覺得我們應該增加他的福利。"],["蘇委員清泉：300隻以下的，一個月酬勞才500塊，難怪他都用電話問一問而已，他連去都沒有，我看他從頭到尾都沒有去，他要負最大的責任，這酬勞這麼便宜，都比剪頭髮還便宜。"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個可能跟不同縣市地方政府的訂定……不過這個部分，我記起來，我覺得委員講得非常對，在對他們的一些標準，一定要有系統地去提高，而且是要讓他能夠盡到責任，所以我會請防檢署……"],["蘇委員清泉：獸醫都跑去做寵物，寵物跟我們的生命沒關係，那只是讓我們精神很爽而已。如果每個醫生都跑去做美容，也是悲慘，所以如何保護這些在做重症的醫師？如何保護這些在做經濟動物的醫師？要給他們起碼的保障！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["蘇委員清泉：他們讀得要死、考得要死，那分數很高耶！你給他三、五萬塊、500塊。我做過全國醫師公會理事長，我看資料差點昏倒。獸醫師這些……我跟你講這個是堆疊上去……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們的社會已經到這個程度，你說豬肉1公斤多10塊，哪有什麼了不起？但是你要給這些人尊嚴、地位跟收入，這樣才能要求他，高薪才能要求人家做事情。部長，給的薪資太廉價了。"],["陳部長駿季：如果我不重視，我就不會去爭取他們的不開業獎金1到3萬，而且我們爭取成功了。"],["蘇委員清泉：5萬也可以啊！不開業獎金也可以5萬塊，這有什麼了不起？可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：一步一步來，我們今年已經好不容易爭取1到3萬，過一段時間我們再看看。但是您剛才講的民間的部分，我們也會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：這些獸醫師是畜產協會推薦的，還是他自己去找人？"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該有個list，畜牧場有些特約獸醫師，特約獸醫師不是每一天在那邊工作。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我知道，他用兼任就對了，但是他都沒去看嘛！至少也要巡一下。500塊光油錢都不夠。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這不純粹是錢的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：錢很重要，怎麼錢不是問題？"],["陳部長駿季：錢是一個因素，但是特約醫師跟畜牧場之間的互動，我覺得才是重點，我們會去檢視後續獸醫師跟畜牧場之間的互動。"],["蘇委員清泉：獸醫師的地位、尊嚴，有沒有給人家尊重及他們的收入，這三個都要……"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得我們對不起全國的獸醫師。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["蘇委員清泉：要加油！"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝蘇委員替獸醫師發言。","現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時35分）","繼續開會（10時46分）"],["主席：休息時間到，繼續開會。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da514185f9c2f4aaf18914a9ab9b55a87a24a3c61875d63c7135581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:09:38 - 10:25:02","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T10:09:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T10:25:02+08:00","duration":924,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.43471875,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.52721875,"end":38.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.110968750000005,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.61596875,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":67.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":70.31534375000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.19284375000001,"end":73.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.36159375000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.77034375000001,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.45346875000001,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.75034375000001,"end":126.99846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.66971875,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.23909375000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.25596875000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.15034375,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":144.70034375,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.22284375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.88409375,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":164.73096875000002,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.83596875,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.11346875,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.19784375,"end":174.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.48034375,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":181.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.69034375,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.11221875,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.32284375,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.82409375,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.12721875000003,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.33784375000002,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.56534375,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":200.20221875000001,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.27346875,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.73721875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.74971875,"end":207.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.26846875,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.51034375,"end":229.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.42534375000002,"end":233.24346875}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謝謝主席我先請教農業部部長陳部長那請陳部長我也好"},{"start":16.177,"end":27.064,"text":"部長這次的非洲豬瘟的病毒這個很顯然一定是從境外進來的在你們的報告裡面的第5頁事實上你們過去在機場機場這邊被棄置的這些豬肉產品你們檢測了9511件樣本"},{"start":35.569,"end":61.876,"text":"有997件大概10點多對 呈現陽性我個人覺得這樣的比例是蠻高的那我要問的是特別是今年今年1到10月你們有沒有去分析今年這樣子就是樣本裡面檢測出來的比例有多高來自於哪一些國家你們有沒有針對國家去做分析就是做出那個比例的分析今年的部分等一下我稍後看看有沒有資料不過我想要跟委員說明的就是我們這樣子的一個統計的母數是"},{"start":63.817,"end":90.055,"text":"旅客進來以後我們宣導他氣質的這些產品而不是稽查到去抽到的這個部分那這些產品裡面有哪些國家比較多這樣的一個數據是背後代表的意義就是說來自高風險區的這些國家他的肉製品會有比較高的風險大概將近10%那過往的數據裡面大概這個10%裡面大概有將近七成到八成是來自於中國"},{"start":91.156,"end":100.791,"text":"來自於中國那這個會跟旅客的比例是有關的那至於114年你們這邊有沒有資料今年有沒有最新的就是我們必須掌握最新的情況嗎"},{"start":101.943,"end":121.173,"text":"報告委員到目前統計到上週總共中國有來自1,125件檢驗147件陽性 陽性比例13.1 越南69件陽性比例13件 陽性比例18.8泰國檢驗168件 7件陽性比例4.2所以平均是11.3以上說明"},{"start":121.82,"end":149.269,"text":"好 所以現在最多的就是中國大陸 越南跟泰國嘛這三個國家嘛 對不對那現在旅客的部分進來的這個東南亞的國家像越南跟泰國你們有強化嗎因為我們現在入客是不准來的啊所以會經由這個旅客直接再夾帶進來的事實上越南跟泰國如果在你們檢測比例這麼高的話你們有沒有列為重點他們現在回來的班機所夾帶的這些行李有沒有百分之百的"},{"start":149.309,"end":178.516,"text":"我想我們在邊境的旅客的部分我們大概分為來自於有疫區的我們把它列為高風險區那高風險區的話不管他的手提行李或者是後送的行李是百分之百經過X光檢查好 所以現在越南跟泰國都有對 就是只要39個國家都只要跟我們國家那你們認為現在這一波的漏洞會來自於哪裡如果我們的這個邊境這麼的嚴密的話破口會來自於哪裡我們現在在疫調過程中還沒辦法很確定但是"},{"start":179.116,"end":204.218,"text":"那他現在這個病毒株跟哪一個國家比較相似現在也沒辦法確定我們有做這個定序因為解序的過程中他的DNA蠻大的還在做處理你們第一時間有對外說是跟越南株比較相近現在還是嗎我們應該沒有這樣說媒體上面有報導所以要澄清一下我們某一段因為那時候基因有很多片段某一段的部分那你們什麼時候會出來"},{"start":206.036,"end":229.671,"text":"這個禮拜五會出來嘛 盡快做出來因為是來自於哪一個國家 這個也蠻重要你要對症下藥嘛 不要這個亂槍打鳥如果是針對哪一個國家來的那的確去加研 這個我們都贊成好 這個農業部請 接下來我要請教這個彭部長今天講的是廚餘的問題喔那這個廚餘的問題呢我要問你喔 廚餘共同徵足場是不是你們管理的"},{"start":231.599,"end":250.191,"text":"共同徵阻的機制你是不是主管機關如果它沒有符合溫度的因為它是廢棄物廚餘完了之後就到那個徵阻徵阻的過程是我們管的是你們管的嗎對廚餘共同徵阻場原本你們設了一個很大的目標要在這個新北桃園台中彰化屏東"},{"start":251.152,"end":280.536,"text":"都要設置115年你們共同珍珠場的量能可以達到一天可以消化2600公噸你目前的整個家戶家事業加起來不過2115噸喔那你原來有一個很遠大的計畫結果你現在只剩下有苗栗僅有一場那你這個計畫會胎死腹中不推了嗎還是現在有什麼困難因為115年其實就到了就明年了"},{"start":281.516,"end":303.844,"text":"對 報委員這個珍珠廠的規劃更是環境部跟農業部在負責那我們是負責監控它有沒有珍珠的過程當中符合這個環保的法律那沒達到這個目標誰要負責是你要負責還是農業部負責這是我們要一起來推動的事情那你們現在目標就是沒有達到啊你們到底要不要推 我要問的是你們要不要繼續推這個是不是要請農業部來協助回答因為這個珍珠的增薪還是屬於農業部"},{"start":306.085,"end":325.359,"text":"處於共同珍珠廠好來陳部長這個是環境部管還是你們管我看阿姆什麼什麼的我跟委員說明現在目前共同珍珠廠有四個縣市九個案場在申請那已經營運的是苗栗的那個廠那相對的在這個共同珍珠廠裡面特別是在台中還應該是"},{"start":327.1,"end":354.228,"text":"那個屏東的部分有很多就是他們認為是零幣設施所以一定要跟地方溝通這是最大的困難那第二個我要跟委員說明共同徵主場在一般的豬農就是廚餘養豬戶的豬農來講他們其實蠻擔心的他們一直認為自己徵主的才安全那共同徵主的話他們是擔心的所以如果共同徵主場是大家廚餘的這些豬農有意願的話我們一定來協助"},{"start":355.359,"end":366.196,"text":"所以現在是豬農反對所以沒有要繼續推了又是避零設施豬農又反對對沒有這個就是說我們還會再去特別是我們趁這個現在我們一直在跟"},{"start":367.896,"end":396.208,"text":"處於養豬戶講共同徵阻如果能夠落實安全會比你自己徵阻同樣是安全的前提下共同徵阻是比較有效率的所以這個部分我們針對現在個別的廚藝徵阻場我們會去檢查它的設備有沒有比較需要的這個部分我想我們會持續的所以你們的方向到底是要往共同徵阻場還是是補助個別化如果豬農有意願我們會支持如果豬農有意願用共同徵阻的話我們會支持那現在是反對嗎"},{"start":397.349,"end":401.455,"text":"現在有的戰場有的反對所以現在有四個縣市 九個案場"},{"start":402.452,"end":430.155,"text":"對啊所以你現在這個看起來是沒有辦法順利的往下推動嘛你現在就僅有苗栗一場嘛這個就是我要問的問題我們到底在這個廚餘的方向上面你要怎麼做你就是要一個方向目標你做到底就對了那看起來你原本設定一個很大的目標共同徵足場又可以確保這個集體的安全然後呢又可以大量的消化一天有2600噸但是現在呢遇到這個到地方之後遇到豬籠反彈或什麼"},{"start":430.655,"end":443.208,"text":"那你們要決定啊 政策就是要決定要不要往下走啊你的資源要往哪邊做我們一直講 我們的政策一直不變就是持續的輔導我們的廚藝養豬的去轉型那從過去的2000多場一直到現在434場不斷的轉型"},{"start":450.325,"end":470.657,"text":"只要你繼續養那你就要落實你的廚藝的徵主那第二個部分就是說廚藝養豬場是不是可以設立用徵主中心是地方政府 地方政府齁其實我們有跟地方政府合作如果地方政府覺得說他的場本身對他們現實來講他不願意這樣存在那他可以做這樣相關的廢止但是以農業部的立場來講"},{"start":473.7,"end":491.76,"text":"你這整個是你中央的計畫啊你現在又要講地方政府不是 這個地方核准的啊對啊 但是中央你有這樣的一個目標嘛我們政策如果他們需要我們支持啊這個是你規劃的嘛你們規劃的就是要往這個方向嘛所以這個我看起來你們現在很有問題喔遇到問題的時候不是停擺 而是"},{"start":492.461,"end":512.784,"text":"要趕快去解決 去突破 我絕對同意所以我們政策不變我們如果說共同珍珠場如果地方要合作 豬農願意的時候我們一定支持那現在就遇到問題啊 那你要去了解啊如果推不下去 你要趕快轉方向嘛對 所以我才說 我們持續的方向是福島"},{"start":514.826,"end":539.987,"text":"這個農業部跟環境部你們把你們檢討報告提出來到底這個共同珍珠廠你要不要按你原來的目標去達到你的目標還是因為遇到了困難你要去做一些的調整我覺得政策必須做出檢討一個月之後提檢討報告可以嗎一個月是不是可以比較長的時間因為我們現在正在防疫我們在防疫的時候可能告一階段然後防疫完了以後三個月我們看看有一個規劃的情形"},{"start":540.928,"end":569.256,"text":"三個月要把這個政策提出來另外我要請教這個彭部長那個你在報告裡面提到這個廚餘養豬場申報上傳的狀況按照你剛剛的一個報告真的可以做到百分之百每天按時上傳的只有一百五十一家也佔整體百分之四十二而已其他的豬場其實通通都是做不到的今天不是只有發生在台中的這個豬場沒有做到"},{"start":569.736,"end":594.24,"text":"你看看你自己的報告裡面這個低於這個60%到90%的還有50家低於60%的有27家我就問針對這樣一個現象今天台中的個案我們可以去看有些要改進的那就改進但不是只有台中啊我看你的這個報告根本就是一半以上通通都達不到100%的要求啊"},{"start":594.94,"end":621.541,"text":"因為有些它是例如說它總會放假吧那我們規定是每天不管有沒有煮都要上船所以那個很嚴格的所以它可能那天他們休假它沒有煮或是它沒有用別的方式或是說它有些它已經不用處於養豬了所以基本上呢我們當然說不是說申報率百分之百就一定沒問題喔沒有 我們未來呢是要用這種所謂的監控的方式能夠來處理不是說用這樣申報的方式我們希望有一個更好的作用"},{"start":621.561,"end":633.274,"text":"那是你未來嘛你現在就是要求他每天拍照上傳嘛那現在做得到的就只有151家嘛就是有超過五成其實都是沒有做到的應該是說90以上958家是算是我們認為還可以的"},{"start":639.321,"end":662.76,"text":"但他也沒有百分之百啊也沒有每一天啊你們現在的嚴格是每一天一定要啊對不對那我要講的就是在這件事情上面事實上環境部你該去做的是什麼就是整體你的廚餘的規劃而不要落入到個案的這樣的一個攻防我認為這樣是不妥的當台中市政府去說這個看起來應該是不是要修法更明確來開罰你們馬上就要說不用"},{"start":665.562,"end":684.825,"text":"廢清法開法最高可以300萬講得很大聲到目前為止也沒有人這樣子做啊因為他要引用的他要適用的你剛剛在回答這一個委員答詢的時候還說哎呀我們的目的是輔導啦我們也不是要開法那如果是這樣子不用去加碼就是你這一個政策本身"},{"start":685.566,"end":710.494,"text":"你如果不是要著重重罰你的重點是輔導希望改善希望可以有一個更好的監測工具那就往那個方向去現在整個都弄混了那大家要來討論是說這個要不要重罰你剛又說不是要重罰所以養豬場都很辛苦啊那現在到底是什麼就大家會覺得在不斷的這種參入政治工坊之後整個都弄混了"},{"start":710.674,"end":740.24,"text":"我希望環境部你回到你的專業今天要不要全面禁廚餘這件事情請看看日本跟新加坡的做法我們可以看到日本跟新加坡我們都一直覺得他是我們的模範跟指標人家為什麼可以做我們為什麼不可以而在多年前張立善縣長他其實已經呼籲了我們可以全面禁廚餘現在的養豬協會也是這樣的呼聲但是呢這個我不知道現在在反對全面禁廚餘的到底是哪一個人"},{"start":740.86,"end":768.476,"text":"哪一個部會 是環境部嗎沒有你們沒有 那就去做啊全面禁廚餘啊請問我們那個副市長說明一下你們可以好好去規劃仿效日本跟新加坡的做法要跟委員報告 其實日本它的廚餘它還是可以做成飼料可以啊 這個我不反對啊所以它做成飼料還是可以養豬美國有一些州 它還是徵主之後可以去餵豬所以這個各國的國情不一樣啦所以我們現在當然"},{"start":769.557,"end":787.237,"text":"因為我們現在面臨非洲豬瘟的威脅啊大家都民意共識很高啊 全面禁養廚餘啊不用你們宣布 現在嘉義縣也跟進宣布那個高雄市這個民進黨執政縣市都跟進宣布啊他們也覺得要全面禁養啊你們不調整你們的政策嗎"},{"start":788.154,"end":811.762,"text":"所以你們要及早去思考嗎對 我們會再來研究說你要及早去思考現在每天產生的2115噸的這些廚餘透過你環境部一個非常有序的規劃你到底未來把它乾燥成飼料可能是你想要做的然後豔陽發酵可能也是你其中的一部分還有其他轉換成能源可能也是"},{"start":812.222,"end":840.097,"text":"哪幾種是你要推 你的資源就要用在這個上面而不是現在每天還在說這些珍珠廠每天拍照上傳報告委員 我必須澄清一下那個你剛才指控就是說我們用這個政治 我沒有因為我們在這個發生疫情我們在這個疫情的應變這個指揮台中會議裡面我們提出來說可能珍珠廠這個過程這個可能有一些這個沒有確實的地方我們提出來是給這個專家能夠來審核那當然外界會來瞭解"},{"start":840.998,"end":856.28,"text":"沒有達標的還有很多也不是只有這個其實大多數的業者很多的縣市也都積極去處理你的表格表格我再讓你看一次啊這個表格就非常清楚啊這是你們自己整理的表欸所以我才說 包委員他如果沒有到的話沒有每天申報的話"},{"start":856.701,"end":877.488,"text":"那你要開罰300萬嗎 隔個月就會去稽查稽查他的目標就是他到底有沒有真主沒有真主的話就要開罰 所以部長我要提醒你的是今天你是一個部長不是只看一件事情不是專到那件事情而是你要看整體就像你今天這個簡報看出來就是不是只有台中這個養豬場沒有申報率百分之百嘛有這麼多家"},{"start":878.488,"end":894.358,"text":"將近上百家也都沒有做到位啊那你們要怎麼去管理有做到位他縣市政府有沒有去稽查這是最關鍵那其他沒有做到你有沒有去督導有有其他縣市我們有資料說他到底有沒有那哪些縣市你把那個報告給我"},{"start":895.399,"end":920.332,"text":"這個我們同仁都有報告分佈在哪一些縣市好不好我只是要提醒你這個整個中央部會你要做的是未來的整個政策規劃從這個個案裡面看到你未來要怎麼因應特別是全面禁止處理這件事情你們要趕快想好你的配套是 我們已經在想了每一個縣市都說我全面禁止然後你才被逼的你要開始轉彎要來做這件事情提早去規劃好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時9分）謝謝主席。我先請教農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，這次非洲豬瘟的病毒，很顯然一定是從境外進來的，在你們報告裡的第5頁，事實上，你們過去在稽查機場被棄置的這一些豬肉產品，你們檢測了9,511件樣本，其中有997件呈現陽性。"],["陳部長駿季：大概百分之十點多。"],["王委員育敏：我個人覺得這樣的比例是蠻高的，我要問的是，特別是今年1到10月，你們有沒有去分析，今年這些樣本裡檢測出來的比例有多高？來自於哪些國家？你們有沒有針對國家去做分析，就是做出比例的分析。"],["陳部長駿季：今年的部分，我稍後看看有沒有資料。不過，我要跟委員說明的是，我們這樣一個統計的母數是旅客進來以後，我們宣導後，被他們棄置的這些產品……"],["王委員育敏：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：而不是稽查到、去抽到的。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，所以……"],["王委員育敏：在這些產品裡，哪些國家比較多？"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的數據代表背後意義是來自高風險區的這些國家，其肉製品會有比較高的風險，大概將近10%。在過往的數據裡，這10%裡大概有將近七成到八成是來自於中國，這也跟旅客比例有關。至於114年……"],["王委員育敏：今年有沒有最新的？我們必須掌握最新的情況。"],["鄧所長明中：報告委員，目前統計到上週，來自中國總共檢驗1,125件，147件陽性，陽性比例13.1%；越南69件，陽性比例13件，陽性比例18.8%；泰國檢驗168件，7件陽性，比例4.2%，所以平均是11.3%，以上說明。"],["王委員育敏：現在最多的就是中國大陸、越南跟泰國這三個國家，對不對？"],["鄧所長明中：對，最主要。"],["王委員育敏：現在從東南亞國家進來的旅客，像越南跟泰國，你們有強化嗎？因為現在陸客是不准來的！所以經由旅客直接夾帶進來的，事實上就是越南跟泰國，如果檢測比例這麼高的話，能不能列為重點？現在回來的班機所夾帶的行李有沒有百分之百查驗？"],["陳部長駿季：針對邊境旅客來自於疫區的，我們把他列為高風險區。既然是高風險區，不管是手提行李或後送的行李，都百分之百經過X光檢查……"],["王委員育敏：好，所以越南跟泰國都有，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這39個國家只要跟我們國家……"],["王委員育敏：你們認為現在這一波的漏洞來自於哪裡？如果我們邊境這麼嚴密的話，破口來自於哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在還在疫調過程中，還沒辦法很確定……"],["王委員育敏：現在這個病毒株到底跟哪一個國家比較相似？"],["陳部長駿季：現在也沒辦法確定。"],["王委員育敏：你們第一時間有說是越南……"],["陳部長駿季：我們有做定序。因為在檢序過程中DNA變化蠻大的，所以還在做處理。"],["王委員育敏：你們第一時間對外說跟越南株比較相近，現在還是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該沒有這樣說。"],["王委員育敏：媒體上面有報導，所以要澄清一下？"],["陳部長駿季：某一段……因為基因有很多片段，某一段的部分……"],["王委員育敏：結果什麼時候會出來？"],["鄧所長明中：預計禮拜五。"],["王委員育敏：這個禮拜五會出來？儘快做出來，因為來自於哪一個國家這點也蠻重要的。你要對症下藥，不要亂槍打鳥。如果確實是從哪個國家來的，那的確需要加嚴，這些我們都贊成。好，農業部請回，接下來我要請教彭部長。","今天講廚餘的問題。有關廚餘的問題我要請教彭部長，廚餘共同蒸煮場是不是你們管理的？"],["彭部長啓明：共同蒸煮的機制……"],["王委員育敏：你是不是主管機關？"],["彭部長啓明：如果沒有符合溫度的話，因為它是廢棄物，廚餘回收完了後就送蒸煮，而蒸煮過程是我們管的。"],["王委員育敏：是你們管的？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：你們原本對廚餘共同蒸煮場設了一個很大的目標，在新北、桃園、臺中、彰化、屏東都設置。在115年，共同蒸煮場的量能一天可以消化2,600噸，以目前的家戶加事業來算，加起來不過2,115噸。你原來有一個很遠大的計畫，結果現在只剩下苗栗一場，所以這個計畫會胎死腹中，不推了嗎？還是現在遇到什麼困難？畢竟115年就要到了，就是明年了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，蒸煮場的規劃係由環境部與農業部在負責，而我們是負責監控在蒸煮的過程當中是否符合環保的法令規定……"],["王委員育敏：沒達到目標的話誰要負責？是你要負責，還是農業部負責？"],["彭部長啓明：這是我們一起推動的事情……"],["王委員育敏：但是你們現在的目標就是沒有達到！你們到底要不要推？我要問的是：你們要不要繼續推？"],["彭部長啓明：這是不是請農業部協助回答？因為蒸煮這部分還是請農業部。"],["王委員育敏：農業部有人要上來說明嗎？廚餘共同蒸煮場？請陳部長，這個是環境部管，還是你們管？我看不太清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明。目前有四個縣市、九個案場在申請共同蒸煮場，已經營運的是苗栗那個場。相對來說，臺中……應該是屏東的共同蒸煮場被很多人認為是鄰避設施，所以一定要跟地方溝通，這是最大的困難。第二個，我也要跟委員說明，以共同蒸煮場而言，一般豬農，也就是廚餘養豬戶的豬農其實蠻擔心的，因為他們一直認為自己蒸煮的才安全，所以對共同蒸煮會感到擔心。如果廚餘養豬農對設立共同蒸煮場有意願的話，我們一定協助。"],["王委員育敏：所以現在是豬農反對？所以沒有要繼續推？又是鄰避設施，又是豬農反對。"],["陳部長駿季：我們還會再去……特別要趁現在，我們一直跟廚餘養豬戶講，共同蒸煮如果能夠落實安全的話，會比自己蒸煮……在同樣是安全的前提下，共同蒸煮是比較有效率的。所以針對個別的廚餘蒸煮場，我們會去檢查，看他的設備有沒有比較需要的？這部分我想我們會持續的……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的方向到底是要往共同蒸煮場走，還是補助個別化……"],["陳部長駿季：如果豬農有意願的話，我們會支持。如果豬農有意願使用共同蒸煮，我們會支持……"],["王委員育敏：現在是反對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有的贊成，有的反對，現在有四個縣市、九個案場。"],["王委員育敏：看起來現在沒有辦法順利往下推動，現在就僅有苗栗一個場，這就是我要問的問題。到底在廚餘的方向上你要怎麼做？你必須要有一個方向目標，然後做到底就對了！你們原本看起來設定一個很大的目標─共同蒸煮場，又可以確保集體安全，又可以大量消化廚餘，一天有2,600噸，但是到地方之後，遇到豬農反彈或什麼的，所以你們要決定，政策就是要決定要不要往下走？你的資源要往哪邊做？你們還要繼續走嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的政策一直不變，也就是持續輔導廚餘養豬戶轉型……"],["王委員育敏：但是成效不彰啊！"],["陳部長駿季：從過去的兩千多場，一直到現在的434場，不斷轉型。不過只要繼續養，就要落實廚餘蒸煮。第二個部分就是說，廚餘養豬場是不是可以設立蒸煮中心，這是地方政府……其實我們也會跟地方政府合作。如果地方政府覺得不願意有這樣的場存在，也可以廢止，但是以農業部的立場來講……"],["王委員育敏：這是中央的計畫不是嗎？這整個是中央的計畫啊，你現在又講地方政府？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這是地方核准的。"],["王委員育敏：對，但是中央……"],["陳部長駿季：我們政策支持啊！"],["王委員育敏：但中央有這樣的目標，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這是我們的政策，如果他們需要，我們支持。"],["王委員育敏：這是你們規劃的！既然是你們規劃的，那就是要往這個方向，但其實我覺得你們看起來很有問題。再說，遇到問題的時候不是停擺，而是要趕快去解決，去突破，再看到底要不要繼續往下推……"],["陳部長駿季：同意！絕對同意！所以我們的政策不變，如果地方要合作設立共同蒸煮場……"],["王委員育敏：所以我現在聽不出來，要繼續推？"],["陳部長駿季：豬農願意的時候，我們一定支持。"],["王委員育敏：現在就是遇到問題了，所以你要去了解。如果推不下去，要趕快轉方向……"],["陳部長駿季：我們也瞭解了。所以我才說我們的持續方向是輔導……"],["王委員育敏：我要求農業部跟環境部在一個月後提出檢討報告，到底這所謂的共同蒸煮場，要不要按照原來的計畫去達到目標？或者因為遇到了困難，所以要做一些調整？我覺得政策必須做出檢討，所以一個月後提檢討報告給我……"],["陳部長駿季：一個月？跟委員報告，是不是可以給比較長的時間？因為我們現在正在防疫……"],["王委員育敏：好，要幾個月？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在防疫的時候，可能告一階段……"],["王委員育敏：防疫的話我可以考量……"],["陳部長駿季：防疫結束後三個月……"],["王委員育敏：三個月，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們看看能不能有一個規劃的情形……"],["王委員育敏：三個月要把政策提出來。","另外，我要請教彭部長。你在報告裡面提到廚餘養豬場申報上傳的狀況，按照你的報告來看，真的可以做到百分之百，每天按時上傳的只有151家，僅占整體42%而已，其他的豬場通通都做不到，所以不是只有臺中這個豬場沒有做到！你看看你自己的報告，裡面提到低於60%到90%的有50家，低於60%的有27家。我就問，針對這樣的現象……今天我們可以去看臺中的個案，有需要改進的當然就改進，但問題不是只有臺中！從你的報告來看，根本就是有一半以上都達不到百分之百的要求！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，例如有些總會放假吧？但我們的規定是不管有沒有煮，每天都要上傳，所以是很嚴格的。可能那天休假沒有煮，或用別的方式沒有傳，或者有些已經不用廚餘養豬了。當然，並非申報率百分之百就一定沒問題，沒有！我們未來是要用所謂的監控方式來處理，而非用申報的方式，我們希望能有更好的措施。"],["王委員育敏：那是未來，你現在就是要求他每天拍照上傳，但現在做得到的只有151家，等於有超過五成的業者其實都沒有做到！"],["彭部長啓明：應該是說90%以上，等於有358家我們認為還可以的。"],["王委員育敏：但是也沒有百分之百，沒有每一天啊！你們現在嚴格要求每天一定要，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有……"],["王委員育敏：我要講的是，在這件事情上環境部該做的是什麼？也就是整體對廚餘的規劃，不要落入對個案的攻防，我認為這樣是不妥的！當臺中市政府說是不是要修法、可以更明確開罰時，你們馬上就說不用，用廢清法開罰最高可以300萬！講得很大聲，但到目前為止，也沒有人這樣子做！因為所引用的、適用的……你剛剛在回答委員答詢時還說，我們的目的是輔導，我們也不是要開罰，如果是這樣子不用去加碼，就是這個政策本身，你如果不是著重重罰，你的重點是輔導、希望改善，希望可以有一個更好的監測工具，那就往那個方向去，現在整個都弄混啊！大家要來討論的是要不要重罰？你剛剛又說不是要重罰，這些養豬場都很辛苦啊，現在到底是什麼？大家會覺得在不斷地摻入政治攻防之後，整個都弄混了。我希望環境部回到你的專業，今天要不要全面禁廚餘這件事情，請看看日本跟新加坡的作法，我們可以看到日本跟新加坡，我們都一直覺得他們是我們的模範跟指標，人家為什麼可以做，我們為什麼不可以？而在多年前張麗善縣長其實已經呼籲了，我們可以全面禁廚餘，現在的養豬協會也是這樣的呼聲，但是我不知道現在反對全面禁廚餘的到底是哪一個人、哪一個部會？是環境部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你們沒有，那就去做啊！全面禁廚餘。"],["彭部長啓明：請我們副署長說明一下。"],["王委員育敏：你們可以好好規劃仿效日本跟新加坡的作法。"],["林副署長左祥：跟委員報告，其實日本的廚餘還是可以做成飼料。"],["王委員育敏：可以，這個我不反對啊！"],["林副署長左祥：對，所以它做成飼料還是可以養豬，美國有一些州還是蒸煮之後可以去餵豬，所以各國國情不一樣，我們現在當然……"],["王委員育敏：因為現在面臨非洲豬瘟的威脅，大家民意共識都很高，全面禁廚餘啊！不用你們宣布，現在嘉義縣也跟進宣布，高雄市民進黨執政的縣市都跟進宣布啊！他們也覺得要全面禁養，你們不調整你們的政策嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：所以這個我們會……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們要及早去思考嘛！"],["林副署長左祥：對，我們會再來研究後續……"],["王委員育敏：你要及早去思考，現在每天產生2,115噸的廚餘，透過環境部一個非常永續的規劃，你到底未來把它乾燥成飼料，這是你想要做的，然後厭氧發酵可能也是你其中的一部分，還有其他轉換成能源可能也是，哪幾種是你要推的？你的資源就要用在這上面，而不是現在每天還在說這些蒸煮場每天拍照、上傳，我覺得蠻土法煉鋼的……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須澄清一下，你剛剛指控我們用政治，我沒有，因為我們在發生這個疫情的臺中應變指揮會議裡面，我們提出蒸煮場這個過程可能有一些沒有確實的地方，我們提出來是給專家能夠來審核，當然外界後來的了解……"],["王委員育敏：很好啊！但是沒有達標的還有很多，也不是只有這個個案……"],["彭部長啓明：其實大多數的業者，很多的縣市也都積極去處理。"],["王委員育敏：你的表格，我再讓你看一次，這個表格就非常清楚，這是你們自己整理的表，所以我才說……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，他如果沒有每天申報的話，隔個月……"],["王委員育敏：那你要開罰300萬嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：隔個月就會去稽查，稽查的目標，就是他到底有沒有蒸煮？沒有蒸煮的話就要開罰……"],["王委員育敏：所以部長，我要提醒你的是，今天你是一個部長，不是只看一件事情、不是鑽到那件事情，而是你要看整體，就像你今天這個簡報看出來就不是只有臺中這個養豬場沒有申報率100%，有這麼多家、將近上百家也都沒有做到位，你們要怎麼去管理？要怎麼去思考這個政策，這是你們該去做的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，有沒有做到位，是縣市政府有沒有去稽查，這是最關鍵。"],["王委員育敏：其他沒有做到的，你有沒有去督導？"],["彭部長啓明：有！其他縣市我們有資料它到底有沒有如同……"],["王委員育敏：哪些縣市？你把那個報告給我……"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們同仁都有報告。"],["王委員育敏：分布在哪一些縣市，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：我只是要提醒你，整個中央部會你要做的是未來整個政策規劃，從這個案裡面看到你未來要怎麼因應，特別是全面禁止廚餘這件事情，你們要趕快想好你的配套，再這樣拖下去……"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們已經在想了、我們已經在處理了。"],["王委員育敏：不要每一個縣市都說全面禁止，然後你才被逼得要開始轉彎來做這件事情，提早去規劃，好嗎？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請蘇清泉召委做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51825026aceadeec9d599e9b62584ab3efa3c61875d63c71357b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:21:17 - 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謝謝主席 麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員長局長 我在開始質詢之前我剛剛聽到兩個其實是來自中國搖眼農場的謬論那也許因為台語你沒有辦法精準掌握第一個 台灣跟美日的同盟什麼時候去威脅中國過對 沒有那是標準北京的說法"},{"start":28.956,"end":45.096,"text":"台灣是被中國用軍事力量 外交力量 灰色力量威脅的國家欸美國日本就是好鄰居或好朋友幫助我們叫做 deterrence 嚇阻那樣子的威脅怎麼會說台美日合作去威脅中國這你當場沒有馬上"},{"start":47.028,"end":69.35,"text":"把它釐清清楚我覺得我講很清楚就是說對於中國我們沒有挑釁的是維持一個穩健的政策從頭到尾沒有做錯事嘛我們接待國際友人我們做錯什麼事我們維持國家主權獨立讓2300萬人有自由的選擇權哪裡做錯了第二個最近中國搖眼農場在散播一個台灣付了200億美金什麼6000億軍事武器都沒有來這也是假的"},{"start":70.251,"end":97.572,"text":"我們軍事武器採購不是錢付在那裡等它來有點像蓋房子蓋到地基要付百分多少蓋到一樓要付百分多少要到那個節點才會付那樣的費用所以根本沒有兩百億美金的錢放在那裡而且很多的項目都已經依序開始交貨所以這個當然不是你的夜館但我覺得國防部跟國安單位對這樣子的謠言很有系統性的透過中國謠言農場"},{"start":98.593,"end":125.92,"text":"透過特定的媒體透過特定的協作者在散播啊所以連國會都聽到我覺得荒謬啊好 回到我要問的題目啊這個高市早苗這一次跟川普的見面對日本來講可以說是一個從他們民調就顯示出還有他們的股票市場看出來是一個正向的發展那本席比較著重的是以台灣為核心利益來看美日的議題"},{"start":129.454,"end":151.312,"text":"日本有三個它叫做Three Security Documents叫做安保三文件那安保三文件剛好高市早苗在宣布參選總裁選之前我剛好到他辦公室跟他聊了一個多小時他隔天就宣布要參選自民黨總裁他那時候也跟本席提到這三個安保文件"},{"start":152.173,"end":173.59,"text":"五年就要檢討一次那他們計畫在2026年就明年的開始先talk然後最後再進行修改那在安保三個文件裡面呢有一件事情在日方很多消息面有指出日本跟台灣在軍事產業也就軍備合作上"},{"start":174.642,"end":193.855,"text":"一直過去是坦白講我們不能說有也不能說沒有所以在這個三個安保文件裡面的修訂就國安局掌握的情資或相關的訊息有關台日美日台所謂的軍備合作的可能性會不會放在這三個文件裡面"},{"start":194.856,"end":210.476,"text":"對 它三個文件裡面當然有涉及到一些日本軍品出口管制相關的一個條文所以第一部分要看它的那個條文後續修改的狀況因為它跟維新會結盟維新會在這方面的看法跟安倍跟高市的看法比較接近那過去"},{"start":212.738,"end":233.556,"text":"這個公民黨是比較中間偏左所以會因為他們叫做聯力就是他們簽約結盟所以會被那個所自走現在這個自走力量沒有了又穩定了多數所以就這一個部分國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息在日台的所謂的合作的項目裡面包含軍備的合作"},{"start":234.322,"end":262.396,"text":"第一部分是針對他的那個國安山文件的一個修改那對這問題怎麼處理因為日本是個法治國家他們會非常的重視要有條文法律的依據他才會變成是一個政策這大概是第一部分要要說明的那第二部分是假如能夠有武器出口的話那他跟其他國家的合作可能要經過一些評估是要針對哪些項目因為國防產業鏈的那個供應鏈他還是有一些基本的分工"},{"start":262.836,"end":278.37,"text":"那到時候可能還要再看日本在這方面的政策它有針對條文授權的哪些國家進行了解跟掌握各方面的討論好 這個是我覺得台灣在外交或國安方面對於尤其日本日本其實很照規矩它就是principle"},{"start":279.071,"end":301.472,"text":"然後呢這Document修訂完之後看有沒有落實到法律然後最後官僚體系才會動未必是政治人物就可以指揮的動他那個體系是很清楚所以安保三文件的修訂其實至關重要特別在軍事工業的合作方面對台灣來講是或者對區域穩定來講都是一個正向的發展方向另外"},{"start":302.513,"end":330.287,"text":"這一次高市他就任的時候就如同剛才局長有提到他就任特別把安倍所提的台日在安全議題上是息息相關轉成白話文就是有事大家都有事那他是一個安倍路線的強硬的遂行者所以他也提出了一個特別在川普這一次造訪那跟高市的態度坦白講與石破一比較那馬上看得出來看圖就知道了"},{"start":331.167,"end":346.629,"text":"那他提到了一個美歐日台的所謂的類似的安全的同盟那這一個準安全同盟美歐日台那國安局的評估跟你們掌握訊息是什麼"},{"start":347.729,"end":372.253,"text":"對 剛剛有其他委員在關切這個議題那再次的跟委員做個說明那這是高市的公開的一個宣示那他也認為說要維護區域的現狀必須要理念相近的國家一起來採取具體的行動那才會包括美歐日台有一個準安全同盟這個準安全聯盟我們希望看到的現象是比方說各項的演習台灣過去並沒有辦法跟大家一起有合作的一個網絡變成個別或進階的"},{"start":375.194,"end":402.392,"text":"那這個安全網絡裡面包含了互相在安全議題上的進退同步嘛他有很多東西要討論所以就你們掌握訊息這一件事情目前他初步的想法到底是什麼對 他這只是一個政策的概念就理念相近國家要加強合作來維護區域的和平跟穩定那具體的做法還沒有提出來但基本上現在在談安全的概念是從一個比較綜合性安全的概念在討論"},{"start":403.192,"end":416.628,"text":"因為局長你是從外交體系來擔任國安局長嘛我問一個比較簡單的問題高市所提到的美歐日台準安全同盟跟過去2018年當時的QUAD"},{"start":420.273,"end":447.441,"text":"會不會比較類似因為Quad也是從talk talk 從開始談到最後慢慢強化逐漸把它level up所以就目前高市提出這個準安全同盟跟Quad類比起來你覺得差異大不大因為他只是還在一個政策概念之下那要變成一個實際的政策可能還要有一個發展的過程那Quad因為已經經過多年的一個運作不管在外交上安保上都有Quad的相關"},{"start":447.961,"end":450.971,"text":"因為跨在2018年當時川普第一任是要把他"},{"start":452.196,"end":478.396,"text":"不要了啦然後呢幾乎也沒有再運作了是誰去海湖山莊呢跟川普說這個要弄的你應該也知道嘛安倍啊所以是安倍當時把QUAD從幾乎已經drop丟掉了又拿回來從對談強化到準安全同盟那所以我看到高視早描提到了這一個美歐日台有點像當年那個影子"},{"start":479.316,"end":503.297,"text":"我不曉得你個人就國安跟你外交體系背景怎麼看這個事沒有 尊重委員的一個觀察啦那我剛剛一直在說明的是這只是一個政策的概念那後續怎麼樣變成一個落實的政策委員剛才提到他可能還需要一些比較縝密的官僚相關部會的一個作業那到時候我們再來看後續發展的狀況是怎麼樣實際的狀況是怎麼樣好 最後一分鐘我今天沒有問完我明天會繼續問"},{"start":504.878,"end":530.326,"text":"上一次我點出來我們相關被中共不管是公安統戰或他們的軍方點到了我們不管軍情局未來我相信也會有國安局軍情局或者我們新戰大隊或者是我們的資通電軍點名之後當然他法律不給予我們當然我們還有很多要跟有盟國家合作結果沒有想到就本席接到的兩個"},{"start":532.458,"end":552.906,"text":"我們相關機敏單位的人去兩家一家公營一家私營的銀行進行更名或者詢問貸款就被提到說你是高風險可能會準的機會不大當時我就是向你質詢的我現在是問你你們掌握到為什麼會發生這事情的原因了沒"},{"start":553.838,"end":565.786,"text":"有一些個別個人的因素不是個別不是個別我們有去了解原因是什麼有一些個別的因素因為其他相同身份我告訴你局長不是個別因素資料庫"},{"start":567.165,"end":592.103,"text":"KYC所有的金融行戶受險他都要Know your customer叫做客戶查詢KYC結果我們台灣的銀行KYC還不到認真喔不到真信喔KYC都是委外買資料庫做輸入查詢結果你跟我講個別我很遺憾我認為你們沒有查你知道嗎"},{"start":593.614,"end":610.852,"text":"這個台銀土庫 易銀 張銀他們綁的 委外的資料庫 叫做World CheckWorld Check 你進去一查我還找了銀行人員 去輸入視察他們是跟中國的資料綁在一起"},{"start":612.196,"end":633.968,"text":"中國的資料喔 中國公安部 中國相關資料 中國媒體公布在裡面喔 一輸入之後它有分四類一個叫做國內外制裁名單第二類 金融監理機關列管名單第三類 現任或前任政治人物PEB我們都是現任或前任喔第四類 叫涉及負面新聞結果輸入World Check"},{"start":635.302,"end":656.802,"text":"我們這幾個機敏資料的人 就跑出來了他屬於第四個 涉及負面新聞那你注意看 像義營 華南 臺灣中小企營 兆豐金控他們去委外買的資料庫是道瓊的道瓊有一個欄位讓你勾你要不要跟中國的資料一併串你可以選擇不要那後面呢"},{"start":657.901,"end":670.494,"text":"有的應該會買兩個 你像兆豐還買了LNRS FLES這個應該是LNRS Files然後另外還有張瑩還買了Patchit Officer"},{"start":671.394,"end":698.655,"text":"你們有沒有掌握這些資料庫裡面有沒有用中國國安部公安部統戰部相關資料在資料庫裡面你們有沒有掌握因為委員在關切這個問題啦那國防部事實上也有一個專案在處理那我們有透過那個專案去了解實際的狀況那有一些相關的因素在我告訴你截至此時此刻銀行行員如果把某一些名字也許把你名字輸入也會或者這個什麼樣的名字輸入進去"},{"start":699.977,"end":717.814,"text":"在台銀的資料庫是會跑出來的喔會跑出警示喔跟委員說明一下啦 國防部他有去了解啦那也有去透過其他的同仁去申辦沒有問題這個資料庫裡面因為他把 我告訴你台銀上面下令把他們移到白單了啦"},{"start":718.817,"end":736.263,"text":"才變沒問題了但你核心的資料庫沒有處理你現在只把這幾個名字移到白單一輸入跑出紅色然後看到旁邊白單他就自動沒問題你講的沒問題是這個我點破啦但如果這個資料庫用中國資料庫來審核我們台灣相關人員這一個前提如果不處理還會賭到"},{"start":738.527,"end":749.607,"text":"你沒有從結構去處理問題我今天先問到這裡後續我明天再繼續問我知道委員開過很多協調會但是也可以了解一下政府去了解跟調查的結果那到時候大家再討論怎麼來處理好 謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時21分）謝謝主席，麻煩蔡局長。"],["主席：有請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長，在開始質詢之前，我剛剛聽到了兩個其實是來自中國謠言農場的謬論，也許因為是臺語，你沒有辦法精準掌握，第一個、臺灣跟美日的同盟什麼時候去威脅中國過了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有。"],["王委員定宇：那是標準北京的說法，臺灣是被中國用軍事力量、外交力量、灰色力量威脅的國家耶！美國、日本就是好鄰居或好朋友，幫助我們deterrence（嚇阻）那樣子的威脅，怎麼會說臺、美、日合作去威脅中國？你當場沒有馬上把這個釐清清楚，我覺得……"],["蔡局長明彥：我講得很清楚了，就是對於中國我們沒有挑釁，是維持一個穩健的政策……"],["王委員定宇：臺灣從頭到尾沒有做錯事，我們接待國際友人，我們做錯什麼事？我們維持國家主權獨立，讓2,300萬人有自由的選擇權，哪裡做錯了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，最近中國謠言農場在散播臺灣付了200億美金，（6,000億）的軍事武器都沒有來，這也是假的！我們的軍事武器採購不是錢付在那裡等它來，這有點像蓋房子，蓋到地基要付百分之多少，蓋到一樓要付百分之多少，要到那個節點才會付那樣的費用，所以根本沒有200億美金的錢放在那裡，而且很多項目都已經依序開始交貨。這個當然不是你的業管，但我覺得這樣子的謠言是很有系統性的透過中國謠言農場、透過特定的媒體、透過特定的協作者在散播，連國會都聽到，我覺得荒謬啊！","回到我要問的題目，高市早苗這一次跟川普的見面對日本來講可以說是一個正向的發展，從他們的民調就顯示出，還有從他們的股票市場就看出來，本席比較著重的是以臺灣為核心利益來看美日的議題。日本有所謂的安保三文件（three security documents），高市早苗在宣布參選總裁選舉之前，我剛好到他的辦公室跟他聊了一個多小時，他隔天就宣布要參選自民黨總裁，他那時候也跟本席提到，這三個安保文件五年就要檢討一次，他們計畫在2026年（明年）開始先talk，最後再進行修改。這安保三文件裡面有一件事情，在日方有很多消息面指出，日本跟臺灣在軍事產業（也就是軍備合作上），坦白講，過去一直是我們不能說有，也不能說沒有，就國安局掌握的情資或相關的訊息，在這三個安保文件裡面的修訂，有關美、日、臺軍備合作的可能性，會不會放在這三個文件裡面？"],["蔡局長明彥：這三個文件裡面當然有涉及到一些日本軍品出口管制相關的條文，所以第一部分要看那個條文後續修改的狀況……"],["王委員定宇：因為他跟維新會結盟，維新會在這方面的看法和安倍、高市的看法比較接近……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：過去公明黨是比較中間偏左，因為他們是連立，就是他們簽約結盟，所以會被那個所掣肘，現在這個掣肘的力量沒有了，又穩定了多數，所以就這一個部分，國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息，在日臺的合作項目裡面，包含軍備合作？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一部分是針對國安三文件的修改，對於這個問題怎麼處理，因為日本是法治國家，他們會非常重視要有條文、法律依據，才會變成是一個政策，這是第一部分要說明的。第二部分，假如能夠有武器出口的話，他與其他國家的合作可能還要經過一些評估，譬如針對哪些項目，因為國防產業鏈的供應鏈還是有一些基本分工，到時候可能還要再看日本在這方面的政策，有針對條文授權的哪一些國家進行各方面的討論"],["王委員定宇：你們有沒有就這個部分進行瞭解和掌握？我覺得臺灣在外交或國安方面，尤其是對於日本，日本其實很照規矩，就是principle，document修訂完之後看有沒有落實到法律。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，一步一步的。"],["王委員定宇：最後官僚體系才會動，未必是政治人物就可以指揮得動，那個體系是很清楚的，所以安保三文件的修訂至關重要，特別在軍事工業合作方面，對臺灣來講或者對區域穩定來講，都是一個正向的發展方向。","另外，就如同剛才局長有提到的，高市就任的時候特別把安倍所提的臺日在安全議題上是息息相關，轉成白話文就是有事，大家都有事，他是一個安倍路線的強硬遂行者，所以他也提出了一個，特別是在川普這一次造訪，坦白講，高市的態度與石破一比較馬上看得出來，看圖就知道了，他提到一個美、歐、日、臺類似的安全同盟，這個美、歐、日、臺準安全同盟，國安局的評估及掌握訊息是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛也有其他委員在關切這個議題，再次跟委員做個說明，這是高市公開的一個宣示，他也認為要維護區域現狀，必須要理念相近的國家一起來採取具體行動，所以才會有包括美、歐、日、臺有一個準安全同盟。"],["王委員定宇：關於這個準安全同盟，我們希望看到的現象是比方各項演習，臺灣過去並沒有辦法跟大家一起有合作的網絡，變成是個別或進階的，這個安全網絡裡面包含互相在安全議題上的進退同步，還有很多東西要討論，所以就你們掌握的訊息，這一件事情目前他初步的想法到底是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：這只是一個政策的概念，就是理念相近國家要加強合作來維護區域和平和穩定，具體的作法還沒有提出來，但基本上，現在在談的安全概念是從一個比較綜合性安全的概念來討論，所以可能也包括經濟安全、非傳統安全。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你是從外交體系來擔任國安局長，我問一個比較簡單的問題，高市所提到的美、歐、日、臺準安全同盟，跟過去2018年當時的Quad會不會比較類似？因為Quad也是從開始談到最後慢慢強化，逐漸把它level up，所以就目前高市提出的準安全同盟與Quad類比起來，你覺得差異大不大？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為它只是還在一個政策概念之下，要變成一個實際的政策，可能還要有一個發展的過程，Quad已經經過多年的運作，不管在外交上、安保上都有Quad相關部會首長的對口……"],["王委員定宇：因為當時在2018年川普第一任是要把Quad不要了，也幾乎沒有在運作了，是誰去海湖山莊跟川普說這個要弄的，你應該還知道吧？安倍！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以當時是安倍把Quad從幾乎已經drop丟掉了又拿回來，從對談強化到準安全同盟，所以我看到高市早苗提到的美、歐、日、臺有點像當年那個影子，我不曉得你個人就國安及外交體系背景怎麼看這件事？"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員的觀察，我剛剛一直在說明的是，這個只是一個政策概念，後續怎麼樣變成落實的政策，委員剛才有提到可能還需要一些比較縝密的官僚及相關部會作業，到時候我們再來看後續發展的狀況是怎麼樣，實際的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["王委員定宇：最後1分鐘，我今天沒有問完的明天會繼續問，上一次我有點出來，我們被中共不管是公安統戰或他們的軍方，點到了我們不管是軍情局，未來我相信也會有國安局、軍情局、心戰大隊或資通電軍，點名之後，當然他的法律不及於我們。但是我們還有很多要跟友盟國家合作，結果沒有想到，本席接到兩個相關機敏單位的人去兩家銀行，一家公營、一家私營銀行進行更名或者詢問貸款，結果被提到你是高風險，可能會准的機會不大，當時我就是向你質詢的。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：我現在只是問你，你們掌握到為什麼會發生這事情的原因了沒？"],["蔡局長明彥：有一些個別、個人的因素。"],["王委員定宇：不是個別。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們去瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：為什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有去全面瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：原因是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：有一些個別的因素，因為其他相同身分的人……"],["王委員定宇：局長，我告訴你不是個別因素，這是KYC資料庫，所有的金融行庫、壽險都要know your customer，叫做客戶查詢（KYC），結果我們臺灣的銀行KYC，還不到聯徵、不到徵信，KYC都是委外買資料庫做輸入查詢，結果你跟我講是個別，我很遺憾，我認為你們沒有查，你知道嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：臺銀、土銀、合庫、一銀、彰銀綁的、委外的資料庫是World-Check，我還找了銀行人員輸入試查，他們是跟中國的資料綁在一起，中國公安部、中國相關資料、中國媒體公布的都在裡面，一輸入之後分四類，第一類，國內外制裁名單；第二類，金融監理機關列管名單；第三類，現任或前任政治人物（PEB），我們都是現任或前任；第四類，涉及負面新聞。結果輸入World-Check，我們這幾個機敏資料的人就跑出來了，是屬於第四類涉及負面新聞。你注意看像一銀、華南、臺灣中小企銀、兆豐金控委外買的資料庫是Dow Jones（道瓊），有一個欄位讓你勾要不要跟中國資料一併串，你可以選擇不要。有的銀行會買兩個，像兆豐還買了LNRS-FLES，另外，彰銀還買了Patriot Officer，這些資料庫裡面有沒有用中國國安部、公安部、統戰部的相關資料，你們有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為委員在關切這個問題，國防部事實上也有個專案在處理，我們有透過那個專案去瞭解實際的狀況，有一些相關因素在。"],["王委員定宇：我告訴你，截至此時此刻，銀行行員如果把某一些名字，也許把你的名字輸入也會，或者把沈伯洋的名字輸入進去，在臺銀的資料庫是會跑出來的，會跑出警示。"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，國防部有去瞭解，也有透過其他的同仁去申辦，是沒有問題。"],["王委員定宇：因為時間關係，這個資料庫裡面，我告訴你，是臺銀上面下令把他們移到白單了，才變成沒問題，但是核心的資料庫沒有處理，現在只是把這幾個名字移到白單，一輸入跑出紅色，然後看到旁邊的白單就自動沒問題，你講的沒問題是這個，我點破啦！但是如果這個資料庫是用中國資料庫來審核我們臺灣的相關人員，這一個前提若不處理還會遇到，因為你沒有從結構去處理問題，我今天先問到這裡，後續我明天再繼續問。"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道委員開過很多協調會，但是也可以瞭解一下政府去瞭解和調查的結果，到時候大家再討論怎麼來處理。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：接下來進行詢答委員葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51e6440ea5aa8f7d42d0e1721cc507f77aa3c61875d63c71356631682cceb1dba85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:12:38 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有請人事長請人事長委員早安 人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎 對大概高速公路 中鋼 中船"},{"start":28.587,"end":50.569,"text":"中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠"},{"start":53.072,"end":60.009,"text":"我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益"},{"start":63.221,"end":89.253,"text":"那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的"},{"start":89.673,"end":114.057,"text":"一些原料的自主度 降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係 對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您 你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人"},{"start":117.386,"end":140.827,"text":"大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人"},{"start":142.694,"end":161.602,"text":"那位都沒出名 他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦 就是你啦你知道嗎 就是跟你一樣奉公守法 兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員 對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛 對不對"},{"start":162.951,"end":179.54,"text":"公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年"},{"start":180.734,"end":209.102,"text":"你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對"},{"start":211.332,"end":233.548,"text":"目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些"},{"start":237.49,"end":264.668,"text":"醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰"},{"start":267.594,"end":291.874,"text":"你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛 KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會"},{"start":294.476,"end":303.707,"text":"給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎"},{"start":304.841,"end":332.557,"text":"因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎"},{"start":334.858,"end":344.488,"text":"那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對"},{"start":346.625,"end":368.144,"text":"穩定啦 穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後"},{"start":368.717,"end":384.533,"text":"我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的"},{"start":390.448,"end":409.123,"text":"政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎"},{"start":413.973,"end":436.388,"text":"整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性"},{"start":437.697,"end":452.616,"text":"你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關"},{"start":454.028,"end":470.605,"text":"基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎"},{"start":473.627,"end":493.7,"text":"我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師 公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇"},{"start":494.941,"end":524.042,"text":"那我拿一個客觀數據 因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人 最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛 對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少"},{"start":527.046,"end":546.431,"text":"16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸"},{"start":547.796,"end":563.536,"text":"我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔 沒錯吧"},{"start":564.964,"end":585.66,"text":"沒有到七成 大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊 沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講"},{"start":589.002,"end":612.688,"text":"你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎"},{"start":613.942,"end":637.069,"text":"我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講 你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬 50萬"},{"start":639.329,"end":653.408,"text":"你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金"},{"start":654.643,"end":677.1,"text":"今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了 人事長你做人事長喔"},{"start":678.294,"end":686.29,"text":"公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明"},{"start":687.276,"end":714.144,"text":"現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦"},{"start":715.686,"end":740.821,"text":"當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢"},{"start":741.701,"end":752.772,"text":"所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時12分）謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：人事長早。請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設？有哪10個建設？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是蔣經國時代的嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對、對、對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概有高速公路、中鋼、中船。"],["羅委員智強：高速公路、中鋼、中船、中正國際機場，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：機場，大概是以交通為主體，還有一些產業的……"],["羅委員智強：中山高速公路。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：以交通為主體，陸、海、空，還有船港……"],["羅委員智強：臺中港、蘇澳港、石化工業、核能發電廠。我想請教一下人事長，你知道當時十大建設，對我們臺灣帶來什麼樣的效益？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就像小孩要轉大人那樣，就是政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要、重大的投資。"],["羅委員智強：對，第一個，是抵抗當時石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣，這是短期面，長期就是你說的轉大人，臺灣創造現代化的基礎建設，也改善我們的投資環境，包括鋼鐵、造船、石化工業，都可以提高我們一些原料的自主度，降低對外依賴的程度，為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎，所以臺灣今天所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大基礎建設有非常高度的關係，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是非常有關啦！"],["羅委員智強：我想請教您，你覺得十大建設最大的功臣有哪些人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概有孫運璿，還有我們中鋼趙耀東，帶頭的是我們蔣經國前總統，當然這裡面默默奉獻的有更多人啦！"],["羅委員智強：默默奉獻更多的是指哪一些人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有些人都沒出名，他就默默做。"],["羅委員智強：我跟人事長說，就是你！你知道嗎？就是跟你一樣，奉公守法、兢兢業業，為國家服務、打拚的公務員，對不對？沒有這些文官，沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公務人員本來就是國家安定、穩定，還有發展一個非常、非常重要的因素，可是他們平常很少被highlight出來。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們是默默在做，很默默在做。"],["羅委員智強：就是無名英雄。當年，你會發現除了一些優秀的政務官，我們講的一些專業的國營事業經營者，還有一些非常優秀的文官，專業、認真、忠誠，為我們國家建設在打拚的公務員，是他們打造了今天臺灣堅實的基礎建設跟經濟基礎。","那我再問，你知道現在臺灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：從10年前的資通訊產業，這五、六年就直接跨到半導體，當然未來還是會以AI為主體的產業，它會延展出來，譬如像光通訊，還有量子運算相關的領域，還有醫療科技的部分，我覺得是臺灣非常有機會的區塊。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，但其中有一個我們講的，等於是臺灣高科技產業的孵化器，就是新竹科學園區，包括台積電，當年在奠基的時候，也是你剛剛講的那些人，包括孫運璿、李國鼎等很多優秀的政務官，打造這些高科技的搖籃，還是有一群默默無名的英雄，是誰？你剛講過了嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：從工研院出來的這一些人，坦白講，工研院對臺灣來講很重要，這裡面大家耳熟能詳的就是孫運璿以前在台電，後來有李國鼎K.T.，還有相關的這些人，我覺得他always在這個領域會是大家認為非常無可取代的位置。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得人事長講得很好，我為什麼要問你這些事情，知道嗎？因為你會看到，在那個年代當中，第一個，我們整個社會的景象是這樣，有一些非常優秀、有遠見、前瞻力、魄力的政務官，帶著一群有專業、熱情來為國家奉獻的公務員，所以兩個合作起來打拚，打造了今天臺灣非常堅實，不管是產業的基礎，還是我們講的工業基礎，乃至於經濟發展的基礎，當時的公務員說實在話，人事長，你也是一路公務員上來，公務員在當時應該還算是一個蠻光榮的行業，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：穩定啦！光榮的話，我覺得就是奉獻國家一個蠻好的途徑。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我跟人事長講，我當兵退伍也考上公務員，考過高考分派到公平交易委員會，我印象非常深刻，當我回去跟爸爸、媽媽講，我考上公務員之後，我媽、爸那開心的樣子，我相信人事長，你應該有經歷過這個過程吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我被罵，問我為什麼要去公家機關。"],["羅委員智強：代表你的能力很好，你父母親不希望你當公務員，是這個意思嗎？我要講一件事，拉回來一個重點，事實上，過去我們政治環境或是政府環境裡面，公務員是很有光榮感的，那時候國家也很照顧公務員，國家也很需要有優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的支柱，但是我想請問你，跟過去比起來，公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎？還是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：整體來講是啦！"],["羅委員智強：是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可是有些不一樣的時空環境，現在年輕人對他工作的期待，很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五，他希望他的上班時間可以更加輕鬆。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，你講這個我不是很認同啦！我也不認為時代會改變什麼樣人的習性啦！你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年，我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作，如果自由自在又有好薪水、又有好待遇、又有好的退休保障，然後又有光榮感的工作，我還是願意去做，不要朝九晚五啊，所以這跟時代無關。基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境，那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的，可是為什麼以前……我就只問你一件事，跟以前比、跟20年前、跟30年前比，我們就講跟10年前相比好了，你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得換個角度來看，以前選擇的機會比較少，所以很多人選擇當老師、公務人員，因為生活比較安定，但現在選擇也比較多，所以我想……"],["羅委員智強：以前選擇也很多啦！在經濟蓬勃發展過程當中，商業環境優渥，還是有很多不一樣的選擇。我拿一個客觀的數據來講，因為講感覺不準，我講個客觀數據，你知道在馬英九執政的時候，公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人？哪一年最高？是2009年，50萬人啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：30、40萬以上……"],["羅委員智強：最高50萬人，它平均大概保持將近40萬，但是最高曾經到50萬，對不對？那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少？16萬啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概不到20。"],["羅委員智強：16萬啦！如果從國民黨執政馬政府時候的50萬最高點來算，到現在16萬，那是掉七成、70%，就算以40萬來算，那也掉到六成啦，少了六成耶！我想請問你，這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的狀況？今天公務人員為什麼報考人數大減？你不要跟我講少子化喔！臺灣的少子化也沒有少到會讓今天掉六成、七成喔，沒有喔，沒錯吧！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有到七成啦，今年大概會到11萬左右啦！降的幅度還是蠻大的……"],["羅委員智強：降的幅度大啊！但是我也跟你講，影響也沒有大到會讓今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深，沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得比較客觀來講，應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟人事長講，你講經濟環境、講年輕人選擇職業多樣化，這些每個時代都有，經濟有繁榮、有低迷，臺灣這麼多年來都是如此，但以前公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的啊！回頭看為什麼我要問你這些，我想跟你講一件事情，請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停砍公務員年金嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體潛藏負債的角度來看……"],["羅委員智強：我跟人事長講，你知道我向來不為難你，現在主要執政的政策不是……你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向。我今天很客觀告訴你，如果今天公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬、50萬，年金一直砍它還是維持這麼多報考人數，代表這個起碼有個客觀指標，即公務員還是一個吸引人的職業，但現在不是啊！我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金要做適度的調整，公務人員也沒反對，雖然他們為國家一輩子付出奉獻，所得替代率一直砍、砍、砍，現在砍到七成以下，他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金調整。可是今天非常卑微是什麼？因為已經砍到傷筋見骨了，我講白了，你作為人事長，公務人員體系所有用人的狀況，你是最了解的，真的，我不勉強你說這句話，但我相信你心知肚明，其實現在公務員光榮感是受到很大的折損，他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇也被政府……尤其退休保障上有非常大的刪減、削減的時候，當然會降低了對他職業選擇的吸引力啊！","為什麼我們今天要主張停砍？停砍才是真改革，因為你砍過頭，你傷害的是國家啦！當年那麼多的文官奠基出來臺灣經濟的榮景，今天你這樣去傷害他們，不要講不公道，你已經妨礙了國家的運作，其實很多地方找不到公務員，連老師也找不到，都有這些問題已經開始出現。一個國家如果沒有好的文官來支撐，請問如何去因應多變的局面，以及執行複雜的、重要的國家建設跟政策呢？所以我還是要再次呼籲一件事情，真的也拜託今天我們的執政者、中央政府高抬貴手，針對年金這個題目，停砍才是真的改革，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。召委主持會議時不只要讓議事順暢，我也要注意大家的健康，我剛剛看到會議室ppm監測一直飆，從1,600降到1,100，二氧化碳應該要在1,000 ppm以內……"],["羅委員智強：我上去時就到1,400……"],["主席：沒有，沒有，你剛到1,100，現在又上去了，奇怪了，窗戶都已經打開了……"],["羅委員智強：我剛才是1,600，我有特別看。"],["主席：超過1,600 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感謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部常務部長"},{"start":12.762,"end":38.164,"text":"委員好部長好部長在週日就10月26號總統又到台南他去看災後重建的時候他有特別跟我提到兩個第一個就台南未來的重道交通建設第一是捷運目前直轄市六都只有台南市沒有任何捷運明年渴望第一條藍線可以動工第二個"},{"start":39.318,"end":60.837,"text":"就是市區的鐵路地下化即將完工 通車那接下來鐵路往北走就是到永康就永康鐵路地下化那永康的鐵路地下化對於目前台南市的整體交通來講非常重要永康已經是台南超過20萬人口的第二大的行政區"},{"start":62.369,"end":89.04,"text":"那永康的鐵路地下化目前可行性的評估已經獲得行政院的核定是但我們也特別希望交通部這裡以及行政院的支持能夠在明年底以前完成綜合規劃作業的核定那這個地方恐怕就當然需要中央跟地方來密切合作是"},{"start":91.924,"end":117.971,"text":"這個請部長能夠全力來支持好 報告委員永康鐵路地下化現在列為我們鐵道局很重要的一個綜合規劃的業務現在鐵道局正在趕進度我們希望能夠到明年底我們設定的目標就是明年底要獲得行政院的核定這個部分鐵道局會全力來趕進度總統那天也是這麼講希望在明年底以前永康鐵路地下化能夠得到行政院的核定"},{"start":120.049,"end":141.86,"text":"你有沒有看到 現在這裡就是永康鐵路地下化以後至少我們可以消除幾個平交道像這個永康橋 永康橋就是齊美醫院英空如果踢到地上 機密便衣前面的路橋就沒了另外就是英空的康橋大道平交道這就是總圖附近"},{"start":144.816,"end":172.25,"text":"另外就是四維路平橋道四維路平橋道跟烏水橋平橋道這幾個平橋道有路橋中正路路橋你如果去英空交流道國道1號下來你就看到一個很奇怪的路線那個路橋也可以拿掉另外就是英台路外的路橋都可以通通不見所以1號你去之後你大概還要蓋幾個新的車站我看這裡有一個大橋站"},{"start":173.26,"end":201.189,"text":"這是地下車站 地下車站大橋站就在旁邊另外設一個康橋站康橋站就是大概在那個總圖附近在那個地方的話附近的人口就非常多因為未來那個地方 泡沙灘遷走以後那個地方在旁邊再設一個地下的鐵路車站這對地方的發展非常更是"},{"start":202.731,"end":227.776,"text":"非常的期待啦所以我希望說我們在明年啦明年再進展這個英空的鐵路地要綜合規劃可以來得到行政核定好 我們來努力這個方案因為第二個台南市還有一個地方很重要的鐵路立體化你要忍得啦忍得鐵路立體化這個地方啊 我以前在保安交流道剛好開那個保安交流道我以前去有那個鐵路平交道火車給我擋住了"},{"start":228.598,"end":248.892,"text":"我在車上等了12分鐘可能這個台灣鐵路平橋道很少啦它剛好有一個秘匯教授的時段南北向的客車貨車差不多趕那個時間那單橋快10分鐘那你很難去想像你現在一直在趕 還要出入口我們在鐵路立體化"},{"start":252.194,"end":270.893,"text":"當然是做活動的可行性評估啦一開始都做不過但是本市就不放棄啦我再請黃偉哲市長你再做啦那因為我也結合地方的跟我看法相同支持我的議員再去議會提案請市長再繼續做可行性評估才"},{"start":272.014,"end":287.211,"text":"最近才完成那也提報到我們部裡面來我們請交通部這裡能夠幫忙協助快速的審查我們能得鐵路立體化的可經性評估是 報告員如果他們地方政府送過來我們會盡量加速加速審查"},{"start":287.992,"end":307.033,"text":"因為這個林迪的鐵路地下化主要他最麻煩的就是他在中正樓一段平交道他在林迪的地方很擁擠他還有一個沼地就是說鐵路在上面然後他地下道的通行車輛彈碎橋這個在地方也是惡名昭彰那都很難通行"},{"start":308.072,"end":325.881,"text":"那麼在新的市政府送過來的案子裡面你醫療人體的體力高架化以後仁德車站的原地 原地繼續保留他就是差不多過港北高溪人體的體力就開始高架起來"},{"start":326.941,"end":340.086,"text":"然後這個未來這個仁德站中正路的這個平交道就有了這對林鄭發展很重要林鄭如果重視到這個一段路的平交道這仁德市區的通行會非常順暢"},{"start":341.604,"end":359.392,"text":"所以臨陸站它是世界第一的地方但是變成一個高架的車站然後車子在經過潭水橋地下道未來的潭水橋地下道我怎麼會消失過去潭水橋地下道它就開始慢慢地降下來過去三百公里變平面"},{"start":360.612,"end":378.918,"text":"所以原地的保安站因為剛好在立體化的下降的波段所以保安站會往北移往北移就比較靠近比較靠近我們的旗美博物館跟石谷的藝術文化園區"},{"start":382.719,"end":401.911,"text":"所以這個鐵路在外面也可以連接我們在國安病的生活圈還有保安工業區周遭一個奇妙博物館跟石鼓園區之間整個會串聯起來所以這點我也請拜託我們江東部這裡能夠加速審查另外還有一個捷運台南市捷運"},{"start":403.769,"end":430.038,"text":"六都市有 台南沒有啦那明年第一條喔 柏中你看一下 明年要做這條啦藍線藍線喔 藍線喔這條就是台南中華東路 那個平石營區的轉運站它對白要走到英空的大橋車站嘛 大橋車站大概齊美醫院那裡那其中喔 要趕快競速來幫忙審查的就是這個藍色的 藍延線就是藍色的延長線"},{"start":431.338,"end":460,"text":"藍色延長線對於仁德轉運站回來它有兩條一條往東再到冠廟再中它就是對於仁德中山入口那裡的仁德轉運站開始連結歸零到冠廟白山就冠廟再中它另外一條向南是走到戈堤的台南站就會連結到高鐵站這個叫藍色延長線因為跟這個名人洞窟的這個藍色線是兩座位所以這步也請我們那個交通部要加速來協助審查我們來加速審議"},{"start":461.041,"end":473.609,"text":"另外在這個地方它還有一個深綠線深綠線接到更重要的地方就是到蘭科普通人也知道現在蘭科的產值已經高過竹科"},{"start":474.927,"end":503.178,"text":"所以你以後這條勝綠線你等於可以連結對南科你要坐捷運你可以直接坐到高鐵站也就是說以後啊來到台南高鐵站的南科他不一定要坐車走國道1或者走平面道路回到南科他可以坐捷運直接到南科去所以這是接下來就明年底這個核定準備動工的南線"},{"start":504.411,"end":507.113,"text":"再來就是藍色的延長線這個藍延線 藍色延長線跟深綠線 深綠線串聯市區靠南科的"},{"start":512.381,"end":536.016,"text":"另外一條 藍色延長線就有個別的這個柏文喔 也請交通部來加速審查我們加速審查 這個沒有問題 我們都會支持台南的捷運建設我們都很支持因為這個台南也算委屈啦 六都只有台南 沒有捷運總算等到第一條的捷運啊 每年就要等一天啦那你捷運只蓋一條是沒有用的沒有錯 那你要形成一個路網嘛"},{"start":537.337,"end":560.854,"text":"你看他隨便一個計畫都是十年十二年那經費都非常可怕都是好幾百億以上所以我們一定要保護我們台南我告訴你這是最好的機會我們一定要保護這個時辰來把未來台南這個十年甚至二十年後的整體的路網做好一個超前的部署感謝博電的全力支持謝謝委員好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時12分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。上週日（10月26日）總統到臺南去看災後重建的時候，他特別跟我提到兩個問題，主要是針對臺南未來的重大交通建設，第一個是捷運，目前直轄市六都只有臺南市沒有任何捷運，明年可望第一條藍線可以動工。第二個就是市區的鐵路地下化即將完工通車，接下來鐵路往北走就是到永康，也就是永康鐵路地下化，永康鐵路地下化對於目前臺南市的整體交通來講非常重要，因為永康已經是超過20萬人口的臺南第二大行政區。關於永康鐵路地下化，目前可行性評估已經獲得行政院核定，我們特別希望交通部以及行政院支持能夠在明年底以前完成綜合規劃作業的核定，這個地方當然需要中央跟地方密切合作，這一點是不是請部長能夠全力來支持？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，永康鐵路地下化現在列為鐵道局很重要的綜合規劃業務，現在鐵道局正在趕進度，我們設定的目標就是明年底要獲得行政院的核定，這個部分鐵道局會全力來趕進度。"],["林委員俊憲：總統那天也是這麼講，希望在明年底以前永康鐵路地下化能夠得到行政院的核定。我們可以看到這個圖就是永康鐵路地下化，以後至少可以消除幾個平交道，像永康橋過去就是奇美醫院，永康鐵路地下化之後，奇美醫院前面的陸橋就可以拿掉；其次是永康的康橋大道平交道，這就在總圖附近；另外是四維路平交道、烏水橋平交道、中正路陸橋，如果從國道1號永康交流道下來，你就會看到很奇怪的路型，之後那個陸橋也可以拿掉，還有就是永大路尾的陸橋也都可以通通不見。等到這個蓋完之後，大概還會蓋幾個新的車站，我看這裡有一個大橋站，這是地下車站，大橋站就在奇美醫院那邊；另外還設一個康橋站，康橋站大概是在總圖附近，那個地方的人口非常多，未來砲校遷走以後，旁邊再設一個地下的鐵路車站，這對地方的發展非常有利，大家都非常期待，所以我希望在明年底之前，永康鐵路地下化的綜合規劃可以得到行政院的核定。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力這個方向。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，臺南市還有一個地方很重要，那就是仁德鐵路立體化，我曾經在工業區那邊的保安交流道被鐵路平交道的火車擋住，我在車上等了12分鐘，可能臺灣的鐵路平交道很少，它剛好有一個密集交錯的時段，就是南北向的客車、貨車差不多在同一個時間，那要等超過10分鐘，讓你很難以想像，而且它位於工業區的出入口。關於仁德鐵路立體化，臺南市做了五年的可行性評估，一開始都沒辦法通過，但是本席不放棄，我請黃偉哲市長再去做，同時我也結合地方跟我看法相同、支持我的議員再去議會提案，請市長再繼續做可行性評估。最近才完成，也提報到部裡面來，還請交通部能夠幫忙，協助快速審查仁德鐵路立體化的可行性評估。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果地方政府送過來，我們會儘量加速審查。"],["林委員俊憲：仁德鐵路立體化最麻煩的地方在於中正路一段的平交道，在仁德那個地方非常擁擠，另外它還有一個走地下道的，也就是鐵路在上面，然後在地下道通行車輛，潭稅橋在地方也是惡名昭彰，那些都很難通行。在市政府送過來的新的案子裡面，以後的仁德鐵路高架化以後，仁德車站就讓它原地繼續保留，差不多過了港尾溝溪之後，仁德的鐵路就開始高架化了，未來中正路的平交道就沒有了，這對仁德的發展而言非常重要，如果中正路一段沒有平交道，那麼仁德市區的通行會非常順暢。仁德站設計在原來的地方，但是變成一個高架的車站，然後車子再經過潭稅橋地下道，未來潭稅橋地下道也會消失，過了潭稅橋地下道就開始慢慢的降下來，過去之後變成平面。原本的保安站剛好在立體化下降坡段，所以保安站會往北移，往北移以後，它就比較靠近奇美博物館及十鼓藝術文化園區，所以鐵路地下化之後，可以讓仁德兩邊的生活圈與保安工業區周遭、奇美博物館、十鼓園區之間整個串聯起來，所以這一點我也拜託交通部能夠加速審查。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：另外還有捷運，目前六都只有臺南沒有捷運，部長，你看一下明年要做這一條藍線，這條就是臺南中華東路平實營區的轉運站，它北要通到永康的大橋車站，大概就是奇美醫院那邊。其中要趕快幫忙儘速審查的就是藍延線，也就是藍色的延長線，藍色延長線從仁德轉運站過來之後有兩條，一條往東接到關廟國中，也就是從仁德中山路口的仁德轉運站開始，從仁德、歸仁到關廟，終點站就是關廟國中；另外一條向南接到高鐵臺南站，也就是連結到高鐵站，這個叫藍色延長線，它和明年即將動工的藍色線是黏在一起的，這部分也請交通部加速來協助審查。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來加速審議。"],["林委員俊憲：另外這個地方還有一條深綠線，深綠線接到更重要的地方，也就是南科。部長，你也知道現在南科的產值已經高過竹科，所以以後這條深綠線等於可以從南科坐捷運直接到高鐵站，也就是說，以後來到臺南高鐵站的旅客不一定要塞車走國道1或者走平面道路回到南科，可以坐捷運直接到南科。接下來明年底核定的藍線準備動工，針對藍線延長線和深綠線，深綠線串聯市區到南科，另外一條藍線延長線串聯市區到高鐵，部長，這個部分也請交通部加速審查。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們加速審查，沒有問題，臺南的捷運建設我們都會支持。"],["林委員俊憲：因為臺南也算委屈，六都就只有臺南沒有捷運。"],["陳部長世凱：進度比較慢。"],["林委員俊憲：總算等到第一條捷運明年就要動工了，但捷運只蓋1條是沒有用的。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，要有路網。"],["林委員俊憲：要形成一個路網。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：你看，隨便一個計畫都是10年、12年，經費非常可怕，都是好幾百億以上。對我們臺南來講，我看這是最好的機會，我們一定要把握這個時機把未來臺南10年、甚至20年後整體路網做好超前部署，也感謝部長全力支持。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","接下來請蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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董事長說明一下"},{"start":152.605,"end":177.186,"text":"在我們這個夜點費因為員工最考慮的那以前在8年前訂的大概是120那我們這一次在我們交通部的大力的支持下我們也跟工會這邊完成一個協議那就現在的這個案子已經通過了我們的這個董事會的審議所以120調到最高可以到400另外還有案子就是說我們的主管加急那主管加急的時候我們對於這個基層的"},{"start":178.487,"end":198.318,"text":"二三級站的這個站長的部分呢我們大概都加以上的我們加原來的這個百分之五十以上的職能加息那這兩個案子呢我們都現在都是已經送到在今天應該昨天送出去會到這個我們好交流謝謝部長跟董事長對於台鐵"},{"start":199.638,"end":227.266,"text":"勞工的相關的薪資權益津貼有具體的一個作為但是我剛才提到說勞基法他是保障勞工最低的一個條件而且是平衡勞僱關係也能夠促進公司的一個公平的運作我要提醒部長跟董事長勞動部有一個違反勞動法令的相關事業單位的一個查詢系統那"},{"start":229.167,"end":249.032,"text":"台鐵公司這兩年的成績實在是不好看那近兩年違反勞動基準法總共有五件那這兩年違反就業服務法中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法以及職安法總共有七件"},{"start":250.031,"end":278.964,"text":"那相關的類型不管是勞基法的工資給付與加班費這個有三件衛醫法給予勞工特休假一件職災補償一件那相關的違反職安法相關的法令不管是工作現場安全管理失當或者是承攬與分包管理疏失以及機械設備的防護不足那這些其實就"},{"start":280.244,"end":300.602,"text":"顯示出兩個問題我要提醒部長跟董事長第一個就是說台鐵公司的這個管理啊它管理制度老化當然它還是沿襲過去公務機關的這種慣性那也顯示新式的企業管理的思維啊並沒有導入這個台鐵公司的企業文化裡面"},{"start":301.303,"end":319.534,"text":"另外就是我們相關的監督跟集合不足我們這種即時能夠顯示違法行為公司沒有辦法即刻的查核沒有辦法即刻的發現這是一個問題來部長先請董事長說明一下"},{"start":321.343,"end":349.175,"text":"我想謝謝這個委員的這個指教確實這一兩年來我們在這一部分的做是非常的不到位那我們針對這個問題我們分成就是兩個部分我們按照這個勞基法的這個要求一定要確實做到我們在這兩年台鐵公司就五件了那這兩年高鐵公司沒有相關勞基法違法的案件那違反治安法相關的法令這兩年"},{"start":351.236,"end":369.901,"text":"台鐵公司有七件那高鐵公司也有三件但是相關的大家對於高鐵公司保障勞工基本權益的做法大家比較有信心台鐵這個部分必須要加強要做到零違法的這樣的一個目標高鐵有做到勞基法的部分"},{"start":371.243,"end":383.909,"text":"台鐵公司必須要加油 董事長那你簡單說明一下我們會努力在執行方面在法令要求基層的主管要落實以外我們也要加強我們的集合制度"},{"start":385.393,"end":411.243,"text":"那相關的有關於月初台北火車站發生性侵的這樣的一個事件造成社會的嘩然跟憤怒這也顯示我們相關車站對於婦女以及弱勢族群的這個保護這個安全網是嚴重的有問題當然台鐵公司跟鐵警局也有提出事項的加強台北車站"},{"start":412.711,"end":429.891,"text":"安全防護的這些措施以及計畫那我要提醒部長跟董事長台北車站這個問題的核心並不是在於缺乏計畫而是缺乏執行力跟人力不足的問題那"},{"start":432.557,"end":447.771,"text":"我們台北車站必須要加強這一種場域安全的這種風險的盤點以及人力配置不足的問題必須去做檢討跟改進來 董事長你們有什麼更具體的作為"},{"start":448.171,"end":462.595,"text":"是的 我們這事情發生以後我們跟鐵井有這個聯訪的機制那我們做法就是把月台上的一些保全然後調到這個一樓這邊來每30分鐘的巡邏那這個部分是暫時的 現在目前這只是暫時"},{"start":467.856,"end":488.97,"text":"董事長我剛才提醒過你補足人力是一個重要的議題還有相關的加強這種現場的防護網這也是重要的一個方向我們必須要知道台鐵公司在這兩方面有什麼更具體不是說什麼相關的措施或計畫更具體的執行力跟人力不足的問題你必須要面對"},{"start":489.79,"end":504.911,"text":"是的 所以我們11月1號會把這個本來從那邊吊上來的這個我們就專責在月台上了那這樣的話就可以月台完全鎖住然後在這個大廳這邊的話我們也確實能夠做好這個訪問另外跟委員報告"},{"start":505.652,"end":529.073,"text":"就是我們也會跟內政部來溝通就鐵井的部分人力可不可以增加那另外因為台北車站是重要的國家的關鍵設施我們可以透過這個國土辦公室來做專案的申請警力的這個協助這個部分我們也會協助台鐵公司部這邊來協助台鐵公司除了相關鐵井的增加之外是否也要徵聘相關的保全人員"},{"start":530.151,"end":557.608,"text":"保全應該要增加保全應該要增加而且我們在跟鐵警局要協調協調設立相關的常駐的哨點常駐的哨點來確保相關高風險區域的一個基本的保障那像廁所大廳出入口等等那我們會做到24小時的這樣的一個巡守嗎來董事長說明一下24小時"},{"start":559.761,"end":580.655,"text":"我們現在是沒有到24小時吧確實在我們在這個大廳這邊是24小時輪班那就跟這個鐵井那這個11月1號以後這個保全就是專責了好 相關的台北車站當然是有他的安全的一個破口"},{"start":581.431,"end":607.038,"text":"那就是說他鬆散不夠嚴謹的安全網是必須我們來做一個全盤的檢討那相關的也不只是台北火車站像桃園高雄台中等等這些重要的車站我們必須都通盤的來做安全網的一個檢討必須要讓旅客搭乘火車有一個安心的車站"},{"start":608.298,"end":628.417,"text":"這個是很重要的來最後讓董事長跟部長來做補充說明有關於剛才委員提的這個保全的部分的話我們確定已經在徹底的盤點那我們應該8月的時候已經開始最不足的地方我們趕快就來補充這個保全的人員"},{"start":629.485,"end":641.742,"text":"好 謝謝董事長跟部長 謝謝委員保障勞工的權益 保障旅客的安全這都是台鐵的一個重要的責任跟工作我們會嚴加的督促好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時1分）謝謝洪孟楷召委。請陳世凱部長、鄭光遠董事長、楊正君局長。"],["主席：部長、董事長、局長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。有關於臺鐵公司化最重要的目標，當然是要提升旅客的安全，加強服務的效率，讓臺鐵能夠永續經營。當然，員工的權益也必須獲得實質的保障跟提升。勞基法裡一個很重要的精神，當然是勞工最低權益的保障，而且要平衡相關的勞雇關係，作為一個公司能夠公平運作的重要基礎。但是我們看到臺鐵公司對於員工的照顧，我認為還是不足。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：之前跟部長提到過公司化之後，員工的薪資、津貼、福利或是權益，必須要有具體的政策，加強員工對公司化之後的信心，部長當時也有答應，我請教一下，你們相關的規劃是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這一年來，我們今年就比照軍公教調薪，調3%；另外針對春節疏運的獎金，1天是1,500元，4天最高可以到6,000元：針對搶修的部分，就是一律發給1,000元，調整之後按照天數可以到達6,000元：危險加給的部分，我們有增加1,200元到3,000元不等；針對區域加給，也就是比較偏鄉的地區，例如花東地區，也有從630元到3,090元不等，所以其實我們各項都有盡量在努力。"],["李委員昆澤：這個都必須要逐步來提升，如果現在票價調整了，然後相關的營運效率有出來的話，也必須要讓員工共享成長的成果。"],["陳部長世凱：董事長在董事會議還有通過一些更好的方案，包含夜點費，是不是請董事長補充說明？"],["李委員昆澤：董事長說明一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，夜點費是員工最concern的，在8年前訂的大概是120元，這一次在交通部的大力支持下，我們也跟工會這邊完成協議，現在這個案子已經通過我們董事會的審議，從120元調到最高可以到400元。","另外還有一個案子，就是我們的主管加給，對於基層二、三級站的站長，大概都加原來50%以上的職務加給。這兩個案子應該是昨天送出去，會送到交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：會到交通部核備處理，這個部分我們會全力支持。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝部長跟董事長，對於臺鐵勞工相關的薪資、權益、津貼有具體的作為。","但是我剛才提到，勞基法是保障勞工最低的一個條件，而且是平衡勞雇關係，也能夠促進公司公平的運作。我要提醒部長跟董事長，勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位的查詢系統，臺鐵公司這兩年的成績實在是不好看，違反勞動基準法總共有5件；違反就業服務法、中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法以及職安法總共有7件。相關的類型還有勞基法的工資給付與加班費，這個有3件；未依法給予勞工特休假1件；職災補償1件。違反職安法相關的法令，不管是工作現場安全管理失當，或者是承攬與分包管理疏失以及機械設備的防護不足，這些其實就顯示出兩個問題，我要提醒部長跟董事長，第一個就是臺鐵公司的管理制度老化，還是沿襲過去公務機關的慣性，也顯示新式的企業管理思維，並沒有導入臺鐵公司的企業文化裡面。另外，相關的監督跟稽核不足，這種需要能夠即時顯示違法的行為，公司沒有辦法即刻查核、即刻發現，這是一個問題。先請董事長說明一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員的指教。確實這一、兩年來，我們在這一部分做得非常不到位，我們也針對這個問題分成兩個部分，按照勞基法的要求，一定要確實做到我們……"],["李委員昆澤：在這兩年臺鐵公司就5件了，但這兩年高鐵公司沒有相關勞基法違法的案件。違反職安法相關的法令，這兩年臺鐵公司有7件，高鐵公司也有3件，但是大家對於高鐵公司保障勞工基本權益的作法比較有信心，臺鐵這個部分必須要加強，要做到零違法的目標，高鐵有做到勞基法的部分，臺鐵公司必須要加油。董事長，讓你簡單說明一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：在執行方面我們會努力，要求基層主管落實法令以外，我們也要加強稽核制度。"],["李委員昆澤：好。有關於月初臺北火車站發生性侵的事件，造成社會的譁然跟憤怒，這也顯示車站對於婦女以及弱勢族群的保護安全網嚴重有問題。當然，臺鐵公司跟鐵警局也有提出四項加強臺北車站安全防護的措施以及計畫，我要提醒部長跟董事長，臺北車站這個問題的核心，並不是在於缺乏計畫，而是缺乏執行力跟人力不足的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["李委員昆澤：臺北車站必須要加強場域安全的風險盤點，以及人力配置不足的問題，必須做檢討跟改進。董事長，你們有什麼更具體的作為？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，這事情發生以後，我們跟鐵警有聯防的機制，作法就是把月臺上的一些保全調到一樓這邊來，每30分鐘巡邏，這個部分是暫時的情況，現在目前……"],["李委員昆澤：這只是暫時，董事長，我剛才提醒過你，補足人力是一個重要的議題，還有相關的加強現場防護網，這也是重要的一個方向。我們必須要知道臺鐵公司在這兩方面有什麼更具體的作為，而不是什麼相關的措施或計畫，更具體的執行人力跟人力不足的問題，你必須要面對啊！"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，所以我們11月1日會把原本調上來的人力就專責在月臺上了，這樣的話月臺也可以完全守住，然後在大廳這邊的話，我們也確實能夠做好防護。"],["陳部長世凱：另外跟委員報告，我們也會跟內政部溝通，就鐵警的部分，人力可不可以增加？因為臺北車站是重要的國家關鍵基礎設施，我們可以透過國土辦公室申請專案警力協助，這部分我們也會協助臺鐵公司，由部這邊來協助臺鐵公司跟……"],["李委員昆澤：除了鐵警增加之外，是否也要徵聘相關的保全人員？"],["陳部長世凱：保全應該要增加。"],["李委員昆澤：而且跟鐵警局也要協調設立長駐的哨點，以確保相關高風險區域基本的保障，像廁所、大廳、出入口等等會做到24小時巡守嗎？請董事長說明一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們現在是沒有到24小時，在大廳這邊確實是24小時輪班，就是跟鐵警……在11月1號以後，保全就是專責了。"],["李委員昆澤：臺北車站當然有它的安全破口，針對它鬆散不夠嚴謹的安全網我們必須做全盤的檢討，其實不只是臺北火車站，像桃園、高雄、臺中等這些重要的車站，我們都應該做安全網的通盤檢討，必須讓旅客搭乘火車有一個安心的車站，這是很重要的，最後請董事長跟部長補充說明。"],["鄭董事長光遠：有關於剛才委員提到保全的部分，我們已經在澈底盤點，從8月的時候就已經開始針對不足的地方趕快補充保全人員。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝董事長及部長。保障勞工的權益、保障旅客的安全，這都是臺鐵重要的責任與工作，我們會嚴加督促。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委。接下來請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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改成像"},{"start":96.877,"end":120.098,"text":"高鐵這樣那種水準層次雖然我們票價低但是整個改革過程當中是有必要的所以一開始我也是非常支持可是我就感覺到很奇怪現在我們的人事啊是在紛張是不是是在酬庸是不是所以我對事不對人"},{"start":121.932,"end":141.901,"text":"所以我要請教董事長還有我們部長請問我們台鐵董那個董監事通過的處長以上要不要部長何備要不要處長以上不用啊就是副總以上吧或者董"},{"start":145.552,"end":161.705,"text":"只有到副总好副总好那这个事情当然跟部长但是部长你要去了解我一向指张我反对政治分张我要请教一下来下一张那个好不对好"},{"start":162.799,"end":177.677,"text":"我要提供给部长你看看中油公司台电公司台水公司或台湾高铁中国邮政中华邮政等等这些的财务人员都既有专长"},{"start":178.936,"end":206.815,"text":"可是我們台鐵我們的資產初步有八千億塊一兆以上那我們的編列預算也幾百億我請問一下我們現在回來再回來好我要請教你現在的管財務的財務處長黃偉林先生他是不是財務的專業"},{"start":212.03,"end":212.176,"text":"我跟"},{"start":214.121,"end":242.733,"text":"報告那個專委他現在是公司裡面是專門委員那現在我來了以後我是特別請他當我的秘書室的這個秘書也是特別助理那在公司裡面他是有兼任他是負責的專委他督導的單位就是主要公共事務方面因為我們借重他跟媒體溝通的這個能力那同時因為公司在這個"},{"start":243.473,"end":247.466,"text":"好了 董事長我知道我也不要打斷你但是我問你"},{"start":249.344,"end":275.597,"text":"專業的問題嘛他現在就是兼任財務處長嘛對不對他就是用媒體公關用特殊情形而進來的嘛誰推薦的我也不要講但是我可以保證他是有關係所以我才訂政治分張嘛所以你對他也不敢嘛但是你不要忘囉這裡面員工啊指正立立"},{"start":277.283,"end":284.542,"text":"檢舉的東西 他今天是為了公司好主管財務的處長 竟然不懂財務"},{"start":286.923,"end":310.441,"text":"我常講過一句話不會做事無所謂但是要會做人不要一味的覺得我有關係你拿我沒辦法這是基層員工你要改革過程當中要先安內再攘外嘛你裡面的員工對這些都不服氣請問董事長你怎麼改革請問部長這怎麼可以去發揮他們的功能"},{"start":314.183,"end":341.605,"text":"報告委員幾個部分第一台鐵公司它公司化就是說希望能夠引進非過去所謂公務體系上來的那一種人才所以現在很多的從業人員台鐵公司也有經過董事會去同意到專委可以直接請社會上面的專業的人員進來我同意有走正常的程序進來我覺得這個部分就沒什麼問題部長第二個部分是說他現在這位專委"},{"start":342.406,"end":363.824,"text":"他雖然是兼任董事長的秘書那同時也是專門委員也應該有兼財務處長但是他是督導但是他的薪水也沒有增加他是一份薪水但是做很多的工作大概是這個狀況對啦 他就是能力很強嘛但是專業不足嘛"},{"start":364.665,"end":380.457,"text":"我同意嘛他是依照公關媒體進來的嘛這個就是我們不對題進來你去做公關你要做公關處長你要去做媒體處長我都贊成嘛因為他進來的專業是這樣可是現在門外漢管我們台鐵的財務請問一下 員工都不服氣嘛問題在這裡嘛 怎麼改革"},{"start":390.925,"end":415.34,"text":"他專門委員主要的重點就是在督導公關媒體這一塊可是他就是董事長你如果要這樣講我會繼續追下去喔我已經講過我對事不對人人怎麼樣產生當然你們是依法可是我可以跟你講這裡面的辦法我看得很清楚他是用媒體公關的特殊人員進來他怎麼會來管財務呢"},{"start":419.667,"end":442.692,"text":"委員跟委員報告現在台鐵剛剛公司化有些單位是過去沒有的例如說您所關心的財務處過去沒有財務處這樣子的單位那現在新成立所以台鐵公司也需要漸漸的補齊這方面的人才過去台鐵公司並沒有財務以前還是有財務單位啦我跟你講你不要讓我有會計處不是財務處是那還不是一樣"},{"start":446.053,"end":446.373,"text":"我跟您講啦"},{"start":469.295,"end":476.242,"text":"我不是對黃偉軍先生有意見我是對體制有意見本來就是這樣嘛我對他進來台鐵我沒有意見"},{"start":482.918,"end":511.534,"text":"那個黃偉晶先生也在嘛你聽著我對你沒有意見但是對制度有意見為什麼因為你台鐵要改革怎麼會放不對的人在管不對的事情那當然就委員的指教我們趕快找專業的人才進來財務處未來整個財務處盡量是財務專業我跟你講董事長你下情不能上打我跟你講所有員工所有職工為了這些事情"},{"start":512.591,"end":527.954,"text":"都非常非常對領導階層對台鐵非常不滿為什麼那如果有關係就沒有關係那以後大家都靠關係啊說實在那這樣的話台鐵就沒有辦法改革"},{"start":528.815,"end":557.631,"text":"我同意任何人去推薦人才進來但是要擺對的位置這才是一個專業才是一個改革我同意所有有專業的都來投入台鐵但是不能因人而異如果是這樣就是政治紛張那如果是這樣台鐵又是酬庸永遠一輩子沒有辦法去改革這一點我給董事長特別一個建議我也希望部長"},{"start":558.251,"end":584.762,"text":"要去注意這些最後我要跟主席借一分鐘來接下來董事長來來來來來我知道我知道我們這個是委辦的我們那個海豐號我也去看過了海豐號本來給外表給人家看起來是很不錯的可是董事長為什麼這種"},{"start":586.553,"end":595.408,"text":"高級烤爐再封抹布這個事來 你看一下這是人家造出來的這也是員工提出來的"},{"start":596.189,"end":624.09,"text":"報告委員 這個確實是不應該啦我們已經要求這個承商要馬上改進不是 我也知道這個是承商但是這個就是我們管理階層鬆動我跟你講他包我們的東西我們也要監督啊欸 食安有問題這不是開玩笑的欸票是我們賣的但是是我們委外但是你委外給我對食安的問題當兒戲欸 是砸掉我台鐵的很難得"},{"start":626.272,"end":644.434,"text":"我們海豐號每一個人去回來都很滿意可是他沒有看到這一幕看到這一幕他就根本無法吃喝我跟你講所有董事長我要拜託這件事情要約束我們的城堡散張"},{"start":645.655,"end":671.958,"text":"食安的問題 克不容緩食安的問題 零容忍所以這些東西不要說人家沒有看到就是乾淨這樣對我們自己是不好的董事長 這個你同意嗎同意 零容忍這件事情確實也是這樣我們會嚴格的要求這個陳商好 我也希望部長啊嚴公對於這件事情黃先生這件事情對的人放不對的位置"},{"start":673.002,"end":701.423,"text":"員工是敢怒不敢言我要拜託部長我要拜託董事長適度的技巧性一定要息怒我認為人事我說實在我們肯定黃先生有專長但是要擺對的位置不要說因為他是有關係他就沒有關係這樣不好員工那麼多不是只有一個黃先生這個我特別提醒盡快課不容緩趕快去處理好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時49分）謝謝召委，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員國成：還有請臺鐵公司鄭董事長。"],["主席：請鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長、董事長，本席一向在交通委員會，我對任何事情是對事不對人；但是我們在臺鐵公司改革的過程當中，絕對不能走回頭路，部長，你同意吧？"],["陳部長世凱：非常同意。"],["林委員國成：董事長，你同意吧？"],["鄭董事長光遠：同意。"],["林委員國成：唯才是用是基本的觀念，適才適用也是改革的一部分，但是如果變成臺鐵的人事是酬庸式的，董事長，我跟你講，改革就沒有進步。我今天會質詢是因為我手頭上檢舉的案件一大堆，因為我一向支持部長，為什麼？年輕人對於交通業務的改革，我的態度只有贊成跟支持。私底下，董事長，我也贊同你能夠針對臺鐵慢慢改革成像高鐵的水準層次，雖然票價低，但是整個改革的過程是有必要的，所以一開始我也是非常支持。可是我感覺很奇怪，現在的人事是在分贓，是不是？是在酬庸，是不是？我對事不對人，所以我要請教董事長還有部長，請問臺鐵董監事通過的處長以上，要不要部長核備？要不要？"],["陳部長世凱：處長以上不用啊。"],["林委員國成：副總以上吧！或者董……"],["陳部長世凱：只有到副總。"],["林委員國成：好，只有到副總。這個事情當然跟部長……但是部長你要去了解。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：我一向主張我反對政治分贓！我要提供給部長，中油公司、台電公司、台水公司、台灣高鐵、中華郵政等等，這些的財務人員都具有專長，可是臺鐵的資產粗估有8,000億，快1兆以上，編列的預算也幾百億，我要請教你，現在管財務的財務處長黃韋鈞先生，是不是具有財務專業？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，他現在是公司裡的專門委員，我來了以後特別請他當我秘書室的秘書，也是特別助理。他在公司裡是有兼任，負責督導的單位主要是公共事務方面，我們借重他跟媒體溝通的能力，同時因為公司在……"],["林委員國成：好啦，董事長，我知道啦！我也不要打斷你，但是我問你的是專業的問題嘛！他現在就是兼任財務處長，對不對？他就是用媒體公關、用特殊情形進來的嘛！誰推薦的？我也不要講，但是可以保證他是有關係，所以我才定政治分贓嘛！你對他也不敢嘛！但是你不要忘了，裡面員工檢舉的事項指證歷歷，他今天是為了公司好，但是主管財務的處長竟然不懂財務！我常講過一句話，不會做事無所謂，但是要會做人，不要一味的覺得我有關係，你拿我沒辦法！這是基層員工的反映，你在改革的過程當中要先安內再攘外嘛！裡面的員工對這些都不服氣，請問董事長你怎麼改革？請問部長，這怎麼能發揮他們的功能？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，幾個部分：第一、臺鐵公司化就是希望能夠引進過去所謂非公務體系的人才，所以現在有很多的從業人員，臺鐵公司也經過董事會同意專委可以直接請社會上的專業人員進來，當時有走正常的程序，我覺得這個部分就沒什麼問題。"],["林委員國成：我同意，我知道嘛！部長……"],["陳部長世凱：第二個部分是這位專委雖然兼任董事長的秘書，同時也兼任財務處長，但是他是督導而且薪水也沒有增加，是一份薪水，但是做很多的工作，大概是這個狀況。"],["林委員國成：對啦！他就是能力很強，但是專業不足嘛！我同意嘛！他是依照公關媒體的專業進來的，這個就是文不對題，進來後去做公關處長、去做媒體處長，我都贊成嘛！因為他進來的專業是這樣，可是現在是門外漢來管臺鐵的財務，員工都不服氣嘛，問題在這裡！怎麼改革？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，專門委員主要的重點就是在督導公關媒體這一塊，所以他……"],["林委員國成：董事長，你如果要這樣講，我會繼續追下去！我已經講過，我對事不對人，人怎麼樣產生，當然你們是依法，可是我可以跟你講，這裡面的辦法我看得很清楚，他是用媒體公關的特殊人員進來，怎麼會來管財務呢？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，現在臺鐵剛剛公司化，有些單位是過去沒有的，例如您所關心的財務處，過去是沒有財務處這樣子的單位，現在新成立，所以臺鐵公司也需要漸漸的補齊這方面的人才，過去臺鐵公司並沒有財務方面的人才。"],["林委員國成：有啦！部長，以前還是有財務單位啦！我跟你講，你不要讓我……"],["陳部長世凱：有會計處，不是財務處。"],["林委員國成：那還不是一樣！你現在改個名字，隨便門外漢就可以去做，這對我們臺鐵是沒有幫助的！你不要跟我講什麼會計處、財務處。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，會計處還是在，但是現在新成立一個財務處，所以我們人員漸漸補齊，未來一定要找專業人才，我很同意委員的說法，一定要找專業的進來，這個部分我會努力。"],["林委員國成：不是啦！部長，我跟你講，我不是對黃韋鈞先生有意見，我是對體制有意見！"],["陳部長世凱：對，要放專業的人，這個部分我相當同意，所以我們要趕快去找專業的人進來……"],["林委員國成：本來就是這樣嘛！對於他進來臺鐵，我沒有意見！黃韋鈞先生也在嘛，你聽著，我對你沒有意見，但是對制度有意見。為什麼？因為臺鐵要改革，怎麼會放不對的人在管不對的事情？"],["陳部長世凱：就委員的指教，我們趕快找專業的人才進來財務處，未來整個財務處儘量是具有財務專業。"],["林委員國成：董事長，我跟你講，你下情不能上達，所有員工、所有職工，為了這些事情對領導階層、對臺鐵都非常不滿，為什麼？如果有關係就沒有關係，那以後大家都靠關係啊！說實在的，這樣的話臺鐵就沒有辦法改革。我同意任何人去推薦人才進來，但是要擺對的位置，這才是一個專業，才是一個改革；我同意所有有專業的人都來投入臺鐵，但是不能因人而異。如果是這樣，就是政治分贓；如果是這樣，臺鐵又是酬庸，永遠一輩子沒有辦法改革。這一點我特別給董事長建議，也希望部長要去注意這些。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["林委員國成：最後我要跟主席借一分鐘。董事長，我知道這個是委辦的，海風號我也去看過啦！海風號本來外表給人家看起來是很不錯的，可是為什麼會有高級烤爐在烘抹布這個事？你看一下，這是人家拍照出來的，也是員工提出來的！"],["鄭董事長光遠：報告委員，這個確實是不應該啦，我們已經要求承商要馬上改進。"],["林委員國成：我也知道這個是承商的部分，但是這就是管理階層鬆動！我跟你講，他包我們的東西，我們也要監督啊！食安有問題，這不是開玩笑的！票是我們賣的，但是委外對於食安的問題卻當兒戲，是砸掉臺鐵的……很難得每一個人去搭海風號回來，都很滿意，可是他沒有看到這一幕，看到這一幕根本就無法吃喝！董事長，這件事情拜託要約束承包廠商，食安的問題刻不容緩，食安的問題零容忍，不要認為人家沒有看到就是乾淨，這樣對你們自己是不好的，董事長，你同意嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：同意，零容忍，這事情確實也是這樣，我們會嚴格地要求承商。"],["林委員國成：好，部長，關於黃先生這件事情，對的人放不對的位置，員工是敢怒不敢言，我要拜託部長、要拜託董事長，一定要適度的技巧性息怒，我說實在的，人事部分，我們肯定黃先生有專長，但是要擺對的位置，不能因為他「有關係」就「沒有關係」，這樣不好，員工那麼多，不是只有一個黃先生，這個我特別提醒，儘快、刻不容緩、趕快處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員，請回。","接下來再請李昆澤召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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基本上我們是列車上有沒有保全列車上目前沒有也沒有保全我們是用鐵井在巡邏"},{"start":123.132,"end":144.575,"text":"本席有看到說公司從過去一直我們也強調是說台鐵一直發生所謂的旅客攻擊事件旅客攻擊員工事件也因此除了說這一些閉路器等等相關然後提高見景率其實很重要的是如果說有保全能力的話未來有這樣發生的一個治安狀況可以第一時間馬上請保全來去排除"},{"start":145.857,"end":168.815,"text":"那半年過去有任何進度嗎台鐵公司有要求說各車站要自行提報需求但是如果說沒有一個通盤的安全需求政策的話那各車站提報了之後然後咧又放著今天是台北車站發生了治安問題大家很重視那如果說改天有任何一個車站發生治安問題的話我們又要再檢討一遍嗎"},{"start":169.932,"end":184.391,"text":"跟委員報告是這樣我們針對旅客比較眾多的大站譬如說我們台北還有高雄跟台中這個部分我們有深入的去了解"},{"start":184.932,"end":208.723,"text":"那目前我們看來比較有需要的就是台北站我們現在是先這樣做那台北站我們是用這種所謂的聯訪的方式在運作那我們是認為說這個運作起來到目前的情況相當的不錯那如果說未來其他的站有這樣的一個需要的話我們會再考慮到這樣那因為這也考慮到我們的一些人員的成本的問題董事長"},{"start":209.603,"end":231.431,"text":"當然人員成本問題 現在請榮許本席提醒今年初是不是我們針對台北站也把所謂的台那個台北捷運的部分的保全也給撤 裁撤掉捷運啊對 就捷運那一個車站那部分就台北站其實在今年我們也收到有這個工會這邊反映就是說針對"},{"start":232.611,"end":254.93,"text":"台北車站的部分保全也有縮減人力捷運應該是屬於北捷那邊會去處理我說往捷運那個方向的啦沒有 我們你的那個保全的車站保全的人力也有調整啊也有減少啊不是嗎 月台上的月台上的 這個保全人力也有減少不是嗎沒有耶"},{"start":258.254,"end":268.627,"text":"董事長要不要確認一下那個當然是當時因為臨時去支援的那現在後來不需要的話我們再撤回"},{"start":271.249,"end":293.735,"text":"我跟委員報告 兩個方面一方面是您剛剛所關心的這個議題人力的調整他們已經補回去了原本可能是把他調去別的地方那現在已經補回來這第一點那第二點台鐵公司他的車站大部分都是跟鐵路警察來合作來維持這個治安那鐵路警察他的覆蓋率其實就蠻廣大概有多少車站你們曉得嗎"},{"start":295.444,"end":320.179,"text":"副總校長他的覆蓋率其實是蠻多的因為今天內政部鐵路警察局沒有過來但是如果說你要問鐵路警察的話鐵路警察一定也會跟你講說他人員吃緊對啦他們也希望所以現在羊毛出在羊身上我認為還是一樣就是說過去大家認為是台鐵的安全能夠有在提升台鐵的服務品質有在提升其實很重要一個部分就是各失其職嘛"},{"start":321.024,"end":347.54,"text":"就是說不要說讓發生什麼樣的安全問題的時候第一時間是由列車長是由員工這邊來做處理也因此如果說有安全疑慮的部分保全能夠替代當然可以請保全來做處理那之前我也提過就是說你除了台北站高雄站以外其他的車站那以及台北站到目前為止保全能力是否足夠這一點其實我相信台鐵的員工也都會有很多的意見"},{"start":349.266,"end":368.675,"text":"董事長是不是針對這部分再來去做一個了解或說能夠再去做一個檢視的部分該增加其實我們還是一樣強調你後面我本席最近也看到光台北車站上面近期又要再招標新的商業這個商場要再招標嘛而且你講是說創新高"},{"start":369.475,"end":386.681,"text":"過去這幾年商場的營運模式營業額收入非常的高那總不能說只一味的都是由商場賺錢但是對於我們最基本的服務項目的部分沒有辦法有一個提升嗎對委員的這個提醒我們再來研究看看是不是有精進的空間"},{"start":387.813,"end":404.998,"text":"好那另外我再請教一下夜點費剛剛報告事項裡面已經提到了董事會已經審議通過了是的那現在卡在哪邊現在就是我們按照程序就是說我們要在第一個報交通部嘛交通部的這個來那部長請教一下有沒有收到台鐵的這一個"},{"start":408.042,"end":423.683,"text":"我們是剛剛昨天因為我們的程序就是說董事會的董事會的議事錄要經過確認我們為了加速我們確認的同時我們就支會交通部來提升所以應該交通部現在在"},{"start":424.264,"end":441.073,"text":"我們會用最快的速度來核備這件事情好我們也是會支持嘛當時我其實有跟董事長討論過這個案子那我們也是非常的支持那也感謝台鐵公司的董事會有通過這個案子因為畢竟現在的夜點費台鐵是只有120元但對比一般的大眾運輸"},{"start":442.774,"end":466.077,"text":"包括說高鐵是475元包括說捷運450元所以我們現在也沒有比高鐵也沒有比捷運多嘛我們提高到最高的話我們可以到400元是400元嘛所以說如果是這樣的話該合理的補貼應該有補貼部長你可以同意這個支持完全支持好那我們就看預計什麼時候最快可以發送"},{"start":467.325,"end":494.894,"text":"我們希望說明年的1月1號這個夜點費我們可以來發放好最後來請教一下楊局長楊局長本期有看到你這全台軌道建設這也是為什麼我特別邀請鐵道局這邊來做一個整理就是我相信很多的民意代表在各縣市也都有軌道建設來進行也因此我們希望說鐵道局能夠有一個通盤的一個規劃跟掌握那其中有一個部分就是本期"},{"start":496.154,"end":524.177,"text":"選區裡面有很多條軌道建設但其中有一條已經被退了11次了審查 被審查了11次2020年7月就已經送進來4年9個月了你知道是哪一條嗎泰坂輕軌嘛11次啊在高島 蔡都 差太多了吧巴黎嗎巴黎是不是巴黎巴黎輕軌巴黎輕軌淡海輕軌二期淡海輕軌 抱歉抱歉"},{"start":526.557,"end":540.466,"text":"2020年9月那時候泰坂輕軌還不知道在哪裡那時候武泰輕軌才做可行性評估巴黎輕軌現在也還在可行性評估中但是淡海輕軌二期尤其部長在這邊每一次去那邊都會看到我們淡江大橋"},{"start":541.266,"end":560.845,"text":"但是跟淡江大橋相輝映並且完善整個淡水的交通三支線淡北道路現在已經在做了淡江大橋明年五月可以通車淡海輕軌二期把它完善最後一里路只有六個暫停但是到目前為止送審了11次還沒有過"},{"start":562.421,"end":580.28,"text":"局長能不能再加油一下問題在哪邊因為之前就是靠近河岸的這個預留的這個道路的寬度是7公尺那因為地方有相關的反應認為說這個7公尺對他們的商家營運來說是造成"},{"start":581.161,"end":594.249,"text":"之前就已經討論過而且也有討論這樣的議題我看到新北市捷運局也一家一家商家的來去做溝通跟說明那到目前為止能夠退縮也退縮"},{"start":595.629,"end":624.613,"text":"他們有再次調整到9.5公尺是那這個案子最近有送進來我想我們會來做後續的協助最近送進來也是7月的事情對 跟委員報告所以已經又過了三個月了因為他們前面其實這些那十幾次大部分都是因為地方還有意見還有一些陳情的意見所以大家一直在在討論當中那現在終於新北市政府有新的案子了退縮9.5公尺的部分已經做調整我想地方的陳情應該就會少那後續的部分我們就來加速好"},{"start":626.333,"end":640.56,"text":"真的是要拜托部长我今天特别点出来就是我们不要真的不要再拖了也不要再拖我真的很怕是到最后你会变成是明年五月的时候淡江大桥通车的时候才一起来能快不要慢"},{"start":641.44,"end":665.066,"text":"真的地方沒有辦法這樣子持續拖尤其是現在淡江大橋我們也看到快落成快通車淡北道路在進行中結果應該是要後發先至的淡海輕軌淡海輕軌一起南海線綠三線其實也都已經在運行了但是就差最後一路六個站體把它完善變成是一個circle就可以發揮大眾運輸最大的運量化"},{"start":667.372,"end":689.145,"text":"能夠請局長這邊現在這個案子在哪裡鐵道局還是交通部我們是有我們最近有收到新北市政府送進來的東西我們在做簽報當中那請也讓北齊知道一下進度剛剛部長已經講能快就不要慢而且是已經在設計階段了最後一里路了好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時37分）麻煩請陳世凱部長，還有鄭董事長和楊局長。"],["主席：請部長、董事長和局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，今天主要有兩個議題，第一個議題是所謂臺鐵各地車站旅客安全的檢討部分，我看到報告，雖然開宗明義講的是各地車站的旅客安全，但實際上還是focus在臺北車站，當然臺北車站的運量最大，而且日前才發生一個所謂的社會事件，因此臺北車站當然重要，可是全臺的車站也一樣重要，我想這點部長也同意吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：首先想請教一下，臺鐵車站要建立所謂的鐵警、保全、車站三層通報機制，請各主要車站研擬辦理，但除了臺北車站以外，其他車站，包括特等站、一等站等有所謂的保全嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請董事長說明。"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，目前有保全的車站，除了臺北車站外，還有高雄車站，另外我們有兩個比較小的車站歸來和麟洛，因為是無人車站，所以由這兩個車站合請一個保全在下午的時候幫忙巡邏。"],["洪委員孟楷：全臺灣有多少車站？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們有242個車站。"],["洪委員孟楷：有242個車站，而你現在告訴我只有臺北車站跟高雄車站兩個地方有保全？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：其他地方呢？"],["鄭董事長光遠：其他部分我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你說要建立一個鐵警、保全、車站三層通報巡檢制度，但實際上其他車站是沒有保全的。"],["鄭董事長光遠：我跟委員報告，其實基本上我們是……"],["洪委員孟楷：列車上有沒有保全？"],["鄭董事長光遠：列車上目前沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有保全？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們有請鐵警巡邏。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，過去我們也一再強調，臺鐵因為一直有發生所謂的旅客攻擊員工事件，因此除了增加閉路器等相關設備及提高見警率外，很重要的是保全的能力，未來如果有發生這樣的治安狀況，第一時間可以馬上請保全排除。半年過去了，有任何進度嗎？臺鐵公司要求各車站自行提報需求，但是如果沒有一個通盤的安全需求政策，各車站提報之後，然後呢？又放著！今天是臺北車站發生治安問題，大家很重視，如果改天有任何一個車站發生治安問題的話，我們又要再檢討一遍嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告是這樣的，針對旅客比較眾多的大站，譬如臺北、高雄跟臺中的部分，我們有深入地去了解，目前看來比較有需要的就是臺北站，我們現在是用所謂的聯防的方式在運作，我們認為目前運作起來，情況相當的不錯；未來其他站如果有這樣的需要，我們也會再考慮，因為這也考慮到我們的一些人員成本的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：董事長，當然人員成本是問題，但請容許本席提醒，今年初我們針對臺北站也把臺北捷運部分的保全給裁撤掉。"],["鄭董事長光遠：捷運啊？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，就捷運車站那部分。其實我們今年也收到工會的反映，針對臺北車站的部分保全也有縮減人力。"],["鄭董事長光遠：捷運應該是屬於北捷那邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：我是說往捷運那個方向的啦！你那個車站的保全人力，也有調整，也有減少啊！不是嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是月台上的，我們是月台月上的。"],["洪委員孟楷：月台上的這個保全人力也有減少，不是嗎？董事長要不要確認一下？"],["鄭董事長光遠：那個當時是臨時去支援的，後來不需要了，我們就撤回來。"],["陳部長世凱：我跟委員報告，這有兩個方面，一方面是您剛剛所關心的這個議題─人力的調整，他們已經補回去了。原本可能是把他調去別的地方，現在已經補回來。這是第一點。第二點，臺鐵公司的車站大部分都是跟鐵路警察合作，來維持這個治安；鐵路警察的覆蓋率其實就滿廣，大概有多少車站，你們曉得嗎？副總曉得嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席很理解鐵路警察啦！因為今天內政部鐵路警察局沒有過來；但如果你要問鐵路警察的話，鐵路警察一定也會跟你講說他們人員吃緊！"],["陳部長世凱：對啦！他們也希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在羊毛出在羊身上！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我認為問題還是一樣，過去大家認為臺鐵的安全能夠有再提升，臺鐵的服務品質有再提升，其實很重要一個部分，就是各司其職嘛！不要在發生什麼樣安全問題的時候，第一時間是由列車長或是員工這邊來做處理，也就是如果有安全疑慮的部分，保全能夠替代，當然可以請保全來做處理。之前我也提過，除了臺北站、高雄站外，其他的車站到目前為止保全人力是否足夠？我相信臺鐵的員工對這一點，其實也都會有很多的意見。董事長是不是要針對這部分再去做一個了解？或是能夠再去做一個檢視？本席最近也看到臺北車站的商場，近期又要再招標新的商業，而且你講的是創新高！過去這幾年商場的營運模式，營業額收入非常的高；我們要強調的是，總不能一味的都是由商場賺錢，對於我們最基本的服務項目，卻沒有辦法有個提升？"],["鄭董事長光遠：對於委員的這個提醒，我們再來研究看看，是不是有精進的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。另外，剛剛在報告事項裡面已經提到夜點費的部分，董事會已經審議通過了？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是卡在哪邊？"],["鄭董事長光遠：現在就是按照程序，我們第一個要報到交通部……"],["洪委員孟楷：報交通部嘛！請教部長有沒有收到臺鐵的這一個簽核？"],["鄭董事長光遠：因為我們的程序就是董事會的議事錄要經過確認，我們在加速確認的同時，也知會了交通部，來提升效率，所以交通部現在……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會用最快的速度來核備這件事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以會支持嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：我其實也有跟董事長討論過這個案子，我們非常的支持，也感謝臺鐵公司的董事會通過這個案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實，畢竟現在的夜點費，臺鐵只有120元，對照一般的大眾運輸，高鐵是475元，捷運是450元，我們現在沒有比高鐵高，也沒有比捷運多，我們提高到……"],["鄭董事長光遠：最高的話，我們可以到400元。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是這樣的話，該合理的補貼就應該補貼，部長你可以同意？"],["陳部長世凱：這個完全支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：預計最快什麼時候可以發送？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們希望這個夜點費明年的1月1日可以來發放。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。最後請教一下楊局長，本席有看到你的全臺軌道建設，這也是為什麼我要特別邀請鐵道局這邊來做一個整理，我相信很多民意代表在各縣市也都有軌道建設要來進行，所以我們希望鐵道局能夠有一個通盤的規劃跟掌握。本席的選區裡面有很多條軌道建設，其中有一條已經被退了11次，也就是被審查了11次。2020年7月就已經送進來，4年9個月了，你知道是哪一條嗎？"],["楊局長正君：泰板輕軌嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：「竹篙湊菜刀」！差太多了！"],["陳部長世凱：是不是八里？"],["楊局長正君：八里輕軌嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：是淡海輕軌二期！"],["楊局長正君：是，抱歉。"],["洪委員孟楷：2020年9月那時候泰板輕軌還不知道在哪裡，五泰輕軌才在做可行性評估，八里輕軌現在也還在可行性評估中；但是淡海輕軌二期，尤其部長每一次去那邊都會看到我們的淡江大橋，跟淡江大橋相輝映，並且完善整個淡水交通的三支箭─淡北道路已經在做了；淡江大橋明年5月可以通車；淡海輕軌二期把它完善最後一哩路，只有6個站體，到目前為止送審了11次還沒有過。局長能不能再加油一下？"],["楊局長正君：是，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在問題在哪邊？"],["楊局長正君：因為之前靠近河岸預留的道路寬度是7公尺，但地方有相關的反映，認為這個七公尺對他們商家的營運來說，是造成……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方之前就已經討論過，而且也有討論這樣的議題，我看到新北市捷運局也是跟一家一家商家去做溝通與說明，到目前為止，能夠退縮也退縮。"],["楊局長正君：是，他們有再次調整到9.5公尺，這個案子最近有送進來，我們會來做後續的協助。"],["洪委員孟楷：最近送進來也是7月的事情！"],["陳部長世凱：對，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以又過了3個月。"],["陳部長世凱：前面那十幾次大部分都是因為地方還有一些陳情的意見，所以大家一直在討論當中；現在新北市政府已經做調整有了新的案子，就是退縮9.5公尺，我想地方的陳情應該就會少，後續的部分我們就來加速。"],["洪委員孟楷：真的是要拜託部長，我今天特別點出來，就是我們真的不要再拖了！我真的很怕到最後會變成是明年5月淡江大橋通車的時候才一起來，能快不要慢！地方沒有辦法這樣子持續拖下去！尤其我們也看到淡江大橋就快落成，快通車，淡北道路在進行中，結果應該要後發先至的淡海輕軌─一期的藍海線、綠山線也都已經在運行了，但是就差這最後一哩路─六個站體，把它完善變成是一個circle，就可以發揮大眾運輸最大的運量化。請問局長，現在這個案子在哪裡？鐵道局還是交通部？"],["楊局長正君：我們最近有收到新北市政府送進來的東西，我們在簽報當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：請讓本席也知道一下進度。剛剛部長已經講，能快就不要慢，而且已經在設計階段，就最後一哩路了。好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（洪委員孟楷）：接下來請第三位林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請"},{"start":16.331,"end":42.615,"text":"部長早安 這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先"},{"start":43.355,"end":48.739,"text":"確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億"},{"start":62.506,"end":81.697,"text":"就是明年啦 就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦 他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛 明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛 然後就核100億"},{"start":85.819,"end":100.442,"text":"那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為"},{"start":101.463,"end":128.449,"text":"他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億"},{"start":129.509,"end":157.509,"text":"理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢"},{"start":158.63,"end":162.843,"text":"如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億"},{"start":164.266,"end":191.363,"text":"那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們"},{"start":193.141,"end":213.474,"text":"預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少"},{"start":219.008,"end":246.461,"text":"我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎"},{"start":249.284,"end":268.77,"text":"你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛"},{"start":272.731,"end":300.678,"text":"好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎"},{"start":303.309,"end":320.276,"text":"應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度"},{"start":322.737,"end":346.768,"text":"但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在"},{"start":347.188,"end":367.071,"text":"浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會"},{"start":367.912,"end":389.892,"text":"不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候"},{"start":390.973,"end":413.862,"text":"而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少"},{"start":414.844,"end":438.642,"text":"是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對 應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對 我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半"},{"start":438.982,"end":451.599,"text":"所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔"},{"start":454.414,"end":473.325,"text":"我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多"},{"start":474.726,"end":495.539,"text":"有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有"},{"start":496.86,"end":523.693,"text":"依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個"},{"start":525.714,"end":546.799,"text":"呃 為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊 之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是 法制作業當中現在法制作業 這個確定會這麼做確定會改 讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛 只是說沒關係 決議歸決議啦 那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是"},{"start":550.52,"end":571.791,"text":"支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到"},{"start":573.221,"end":596.902,"text":"行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光"},{"start":597.583,"end":622.076,"text":"的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好 拜託我們同仁好 謝謝好 沒問題 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請陳部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長早安。全臺灣捷運的建設已經經過行政院核定要動工、要興建的，115年度的部分，地方政府都哀號，因為補助大砍。我想確認一下，在今（114）年的時候，各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到交通部，我想先確認一下，114年全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：114年？"],["廖委員先翔：114年送115年，就是明年地方政府總共要跟交通部申請多少？"],["陳部長世凱：明年他們申請的部分是399億。"],["廖委員先翔：全部地方政府送的是399億？"],["陳部長世凱：對，明年的需求是399億。"],["廖委員先翔：實際上交通部核定多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我們今年核定90億。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是399億，大概四百億，然後核將近100億？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：因為在行政院核定的時候，大概都會有一個分期、分年度的進度，他們可能再依照實際的工進申請。有沒有地方政府提出的需求，可能我們認為他有浮報的情況，或者超過他的需求、超過他的比例這樣的情況？"],["陳部長世凱：實際上，大家申請的數額都會比較高一點，但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點。我舉個例子，例如以臺中市來說，臺中市中央跟地方比例的分配應該是55%對45%，他本來寫明年需求是六十幾億，理論上應該是地方編四十幾億，中央的需求是二十幾億，但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反的，他希望中央補他四十幾億，這是第一點。","第二點，現在正在進行的只有設計，所以實際上花不了六十幾億，所以我們核實下來只有一點多億。"],["廖委員先翔：如果核實來算的話，依照分攤比例，我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：核實來算，大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算，大概90億。"],["廖委員先翔：你確定？"],["陳部長世凱：但是我們還是希望多一點，讓地方有更多的餘裕……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你說地方政府浮報了300億給交通部？"],["陳部長世凱：我不會說他浮報，不會、不會。只是工程在進行當中有一些經費，例如說，我剛剛在舉的例子就是臺中，臺中實際上明年要付的叫做預付款，實際工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款給廠商，但是他來申請就是這樣申請，所以我們會希望說他這個部分先不要進行。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我確認一下……預付款是長期以來的一個政策，不然沒有人要來標，沒關係，這部分不討論。"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會。"],["廖委員先翔：我想確認一下，因為交通部的預算其實也不是交通部自己就決定了嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們要看主總核多少下來給我們。"],["廖委員先翔：還是要報行政院！我想確認一下，補助地方捷運這部分，地方送了399過來，你說最後核了100，那你們實際上報給行政院的是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：就是報399。"],["廖委員先翔：你們就報399？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說啦！399是我們初步先抓過的數字，然後才報給行政院……"],["廖委員先翔：所以地方政府報399給交通部，交通部也報了399給行政院？"],["陳部長世凱：他們報來的應該是超過399。"],["廖委員先翔：超過399？"],["陳部長世凱：超過399，我們核實之後是399……"],["廖委員先翔：對嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠爭取399，但實際上送到行政院後只有90……"],["廖委員先翔：我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據，剛剛講的地方政府總共送多少，你們有計算嗎？沒關係，請同仁先整理一下，我們繼續。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再後補，沒問題。"],["廖委員先翔：就是地方政府送出一筆金額，這個金額一定超過399，後來核實之後，可能不需要這麼多，所以交通部報了399給行政院，最後行政院核定99，就這樣吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是90億。"],["廖委員先翔：就90億，好，沒關係，我想核定90億也不是交通部的責任，應該是行政院有做刪減，所謂冤有頭，債有主，我們先釐清這個背景情況。"],["陳部長世凱：是，是。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，地方政府依照行政院的核定送出計畫，現在行政院刪了補助款，請問，行政院之前有去找地方政府調整過計畫內容或提修正計畫嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：行政院應該不會找地方政府，跟地方政府的溝通……"],["廖委員先翔：或者是要求交通部找地方政府提修正計畫？依據我所認知的程序，照理行政院如果沒有要依照核定的計畫進行補助，應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫，然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度，但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序，行政院就直接說預算不夠？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，預算不夠，行政院有行政院的說法，但是它是不是跳過了這個程序，直接刪減了對地方政府的補助？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們對於地方政府的補助，目前的比例還沒有調整，根據我自己的觀察，如果財劃法這樣走下去，未來勢必要調整，但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整，因為目前財劃法還在浮動的狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：但你們在還沒有調整的時候，就先動了明年的部分，而沒有把這個程序走完。"],["陳部長世凱：但是我所了解的，各個地方政府的需求，並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上的拖延，進度不會拖延，其實一年的改變，進度不會太拖延，但如果長久改變，可能會。"],["廖委員先翔：對嘛！不可能說少給錢而進度不變，這是不可能的嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：明年度其實不會，我們有跟地方政府溝通過。"],["廖委員先翔：除了明年，還有後年，這部分總是要提早討論！"],["陳部長世凱：有，如果長期要調整……"],["廖委員先翔：好啦！中央就算真的要砍地方補助款，說因為地方拿了更多錢，地方要負擔更多，這個我想社會自有公評，地方是不是要負擔更多，可以討論，但行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫前就調整補助地方政府的比例，我認為這個在程序上有點過於便宜行事，對地方政府也是一個不公平的情況。我再確認一下，行政院是針對交通部每一筆報上去的大筆經費調整，還是直接就整個交通部框架下的明年預算拿掉多少？是哪一種概念？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是有分項提上去……"],["廖委員先翔：分項提？"],["陳部長世凱：分項提……"],["廖委員先翔：所以它是分項減？"],["陳部長世凱：對，應該是，我們整體上是報了2,200億，因為明年、後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期……"],["廖委員先翔：我們報2,200？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們報2,200公建計畫的預算，目前行政院核給我們是1,100，大概只有一半。"],["廖委員先翔：所以除了軌道建設300億，大概還有700……"],["陳部長世凱：我們其他的建設其實都已經……"],["廖委員先翔：700左右。好，再確認一下，交通部被扣了700，那你們有沒有哪個單位的預算或者特定項目的補助是增加的？"],["陳部長世凱：增加的喔？我看大部分是減少。"],["廖委員先翔：你們明年不是有一筆臺鐵營運補貼的補助經費？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，軌道部分是比過去增加，為什麼會增加？因為就像我剛才說明的，明年、後年、大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期，所以預算整體來看，軌道部分是比前一年更多、比今年更多，但實際上我們的需求還沒有滿足，以軌道來講，我們的需求是700億，但實際核下來是445億。"],["廖委員先翔：我想軌道建設大家都非常關注，它的公益性也非常足夠，沒關係，交通部有依照你們的責任報上去，砍預算的是行政院，我也不會怪到你們身上，那是行政院要去跟地方政府、跟市民大眾交代的……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會儘量來爭取。"],["廖委員先翔：希望交通部還是依照既有程序，該有怎麼樣的程序才能動地方政府的補助款，也希望交通部能夠跟行政院說明怎麼樣才是依法行政，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：最後一點，1分鐘，我想確認一下現在鐵道法的修法進度，就是有關平溪天燈或者特定支線的觀光問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個在進行中，也會有一個圓滿的解決。"],["廖委員先翔：目前進度在哪邊？之前鐵道局送到交通部了，交通部目前是回……"],["楊局長正君：法制作業當中，部長有指示，我們會加速辦理。"],["陳部長世凱：在法制作業，這個確定會這麼做……"],["廖委員先翔：確定會改？"],["陳部長世凱：讓大家未來有一個時間、區域可以在那邊拍照……"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們上個會期最後也有作成決議，沒關係，決議歸決議，只要你們有認真在進行，我們都支持，不會苛責。"],["陳部長世凱：現在就是進入法制作業，法制作業確定定案，然後把法制作業流程走完，大概就是……"],["廖委員先翔：你可不可以簡單抓一個時間點，至少你們哪時候可以送行政院？鐵道局要送交通部，交通部還要送行政院，後面的事情就不歸你們了，對不對？至少交通部抓個要送行政院的時間點，因為這個攸關地方的文化、經濟，尤其是國際觀光，現在已經……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，這個時間我回去再……因為我們還要預告，預告大概兩個月，目前是已經定案了，但還要走預告程序，整個法制作業審查程序走完大概要3個月左右的時間。"],["廖委員先翔：地方的文化、觀光形塑不容易，現在已經沒有辦法去做在鐵道上放天燈的行為，如果空窗期太久，外國觀光客已經知道這件事，以後就算再開放，還要重新再推銷，再去喚起大家對這件事情的嚮往或重視，相對起來，要花費更多的成本，既然我們在行政作業上能夠比較快速，這部分就再繼續拜託部長、拜託交通部同仁，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們儘量，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席（廖委員先翔代）：繼續請洪孟楷召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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我請局長來 局長請好 謝主席 謝委員早局長 我要用何樂威 你有沒有問題沒有問題 好 謝謝你的黨和局勢的報告看出 老總統和我們的創政總統"},{"start":30.358,"end":39.062,"text":"的角度不一樣看蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中去尋求突破但是老總統他不斷想要聯合美國跟聯合日本來做一個對中國大陸的威力那這種角度當然會使兩方"},{"start":59.489,"end":77.904,"text":"緊張的氣氛會上升所以在整個東亞的部分甚至擴大到全世界現在是局勢非常快速地在變動那麼有些日本的局勢看來好像對我們非常優秀你完全是站在羅總統的角度之下對安倍首相以後跟這個菅義偉首相"},{"start":86.977,"end":109.803,"text":"那麼有酒樸、有鹽田,可以說這攤安培這郵排完全是採取比較保守,以日本的利益為利益的可能美國人也是以美國的利益為利益那麼我們現在像你這樣不斷要去突破,攤美國結盟,攤日本結盟,然後來對抗中國大陸現在看到國企收成起來,他這多好"},{"start":117.406,"end":133.63,"text":"日本安保的這個極右派的一個代表所以他就是馬卡美國中央的偉大所以跟特朗普可以說是講得非常高興所以你這個報告我想要請教你大總統這樣聯合日本美國這種意圖對中華的和平發展有幫忙嗎"},{"start":144.126,"end":164.084,"text":"大概跟委員說明跟報告一下因為大概我們國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據我們國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做一個相關的分析那因為以現在的美日安保的合作就像委員觀察的以昨天的峰會來看是非常的緊密他們也認為會進入一個新的"},{"start":166.106,"end":173.396,"text":"你認為國旗跟川普這麼密切,氣氛這麼好在日本的觀察家來看,有確認爲國旗首相的任期大概多久?"},{"start":180.319,"end":203.621,"text":"對 以他這任任期大概就是兩年多啦因為他是階梯 兩年多敢做得到以目前跟在野黨的一個合作的狀況來講那現在當然是日本維新會已經加入了那為什麼公民黨會退出對 那公民黨他主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方所以才會讓高市重新來 所以這是一個出力的結合啦"},{"start":206.016,"end":219.988,"text":"那麼登記殊民黨的執政 當然我們是祝福殊民黨登記的能在那執政但是有必要把台灣的安危 專保 駕託地跟日本這種結盟 尤其看到國旗動森收場馬總統是非常的高興啊 因為說他所認定 實施的日本又再回來"},{"start":231.772,"end":235.297,"text":"這樣我請教你,這個要再進一步跟日本結盟來針對中國大陸來做一個威力性的,五件事實上是軍事上的保守部"},{"start":244.305,"end":260.001,"text":"對 基本上 事實上我們的對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定台海的情勢但是台海情勢的穩定 你也不能夠寄望在中共的善意所以怎麼樣來加強跟國際有我們的合作那不是假蒙地野生意我剛才跟你講 你就是要再進一步跟日本結盟所以你相信日本優秀就是台灣優秀的一定日本優秀這個言論"},{"start":268.796,"end":279.027,"text":"這個是高市首相他在召開第一次的內閣會議之後他就有提到這樣的一個說法那你個人的評論就是說你個人的觀察台灣有輸日本會跳下去嗎"},{"start":284.131,"end":293.662,"text":"這是高市目前的一個政策立場所以我剛在跟委員報告的是他當選了自民黨首校第一次的記者會他就提到台灣有事就是日本有事有年這個時候 邱卓勝先生來到我們本郵這個座談他去告這個"},{"start":300.697,"end":315.847,"text":"基金會責任,他明確表示,他登記在日本首相勝貢賓工作,加對日本國防軍事方位對他的觀察。他說台灣有史日本派兵的可能性很近零。"},{"start":316.775,"end":332.154,"text":"你如何看待這個公法對阿 日本是一個多元的社會啦當然大家看安保議題有不同的角度那我剛剛跟委員報告的是我們從現在的安倍首相的政府的相關的政策立場來做評估的那這樣為什麼蔡總統可以在我們頂端去選舉突破"},{"start":333.584,"end":356.371,"text":"那麼羅總統準備要結合美日來對中國大陸進行威脅這兩個參與性在哪裡因為我剛才跟委員說明第一部分我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定但是維持兩岸的穩定過程當中你不能夠只寄望在中國的善意而應該跟國際友盟不管在經濟安全或是在安保安全上能夠有更多的合作來確保區域的現狀啊開國啦 請你拿去開啊啊武器都沒來啊你現在還要聯合很多人來陷人厭"},{"start":361.892,"end":369.177,"text":"你講的一套做的一套啊我不會啦 強化國防我想這是全民的共識啊對啦 那就請你提一開啊 武器沒進來現在還在想你的戰略的問題還要叫日本美國來跟我們道頂來跟中國大陸緩解這樣跟蔡總統"},{"start":379.123,"end":398.008,"text":"事實是不一樣啊 為什麼這兩個參與在一起不要 事實上還是有延續性啦主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定那同時加強有盟的合作我想台灣在這部分的政策立場都還是有它的延續性本身是強調蔡總統還可以在穩定中去選舉突破不然人家赤赤的啦 抄命人家幾天喔到那幾天就白白的"},{"start":405.578,"end":410.922,"text":"反正炒麵就用痛的感謝你不會 我們的政策都是力求穩定喔 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時14分）主席，我請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，謝委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：局長，我用河洛話你可有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有問題。謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：從你的東亞局勢報告可以看出賴總統跟蔡前總統的角度是不一樣的，蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中尋求突破，但是賴總統卻不斷地想要聯合美國、聯合日本對中國大陸造成威脅，這種角度當然會使兩岸緊張的氣氛上升。在整個東亞，甚至擴大到全世界，現在局勢是非常快速在變動，你有寫到日本的局勢看起來好像對我們非常的友好，你完全是站在賴總統的角度在寫。從安倍首相以後到菅義偉首相，到岸田，再到石破，可以說安倍等這些右派完全是採取比較保守的態度，以日本的利益為利益在考量，美國人也是以美國的利益為利益。現在你們不斷要去突破，跟美國結盟、跟日本結盟，來對抗中國大陸，看到高市首相起來，他剛好是日本安倍極右派的一個代表，他就是MAGA（讓美國再次偉大）派，所以昨天他和川普可以說是談得非常高興。針對你這個報告，我想要請教你，賴總統這種聯合日本、美國的意圖對兩岸的和平發展有幫助嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我大概跟委員說明和報告一下，國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做的相關分析，因為以現在美日安保的合作，就像委員觀察的，以昨天的峰會來看，是非常的緊密，他們也認為會進入一個新的黃金年代……"],["謝委員龍介：好，你認為高市和川普這麼密切、氣氛這麼好，就日本的觀察來看，你認為高市首相的任期大概多久？"],["蔡局長明彥：他這任的任期大概就是兩年多，因為他是接替……"],["謝委員龍介：兩年多可以做得到嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：以目前跟在野黨的合作狀況來講，現在當然日本維新會已經加入了聯合政府……"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼公明黨會退出？"],["蔡局長明彥：公明黨主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方，所以才會讓高市重新來……"],["謝委員龍介：所以這是一個脆弱的結合。自民黨長期執政，當然我們是祝福自民黨可以在那裡長期執政，但是是否有必要把臺灣的安危全部寄託在跟日本的結盟？尤其看到高市當選首相，賴總統是非常高興，認為他所認知、熟悉的日本又回來了。我請教你，有要再進一步跟日本結盟，來針對中國大陸做威脅性的言語或者是軍事上的部署嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，我們對對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定臺海的情勢，但是臺海情勢的穩定也不能夠寄望在中共的善意，所以怎麼樣加強跟國際友盟的合作來維護區域的現狀也非常的重要……"],["謝委員龍介：我們不是寄望在他們的善意，我剛才跟你說，你就是有要再進一步跟日本結盟，所以你們相信臺灣有事就是日本有事這個言論？"],["蔡局長明彥：高市首相在召開第一次內閣會議之後有提到這樣的一個說法，當時總裁……"],["謝委員龍介：就你個人的觀察，臺灣有事，日本會跳進來嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是高市目前的政策立場，所以我剛才跟委員報告的是，他當選日本首相的第一次記者會就提到臺灣有事就日本有事。"],["謝委員龍介：去年這個時候柳澤先生來到本院座談，以及到基金會座談，他明確表示，他長期在日本首相身邊工作，對日本國防軍事防衛隊的觀察，臺灣有事日本派兵的可能性接近零。你如何看待這個說法？"],["蔡局長明彥：日本是一個多元的社會，當然大家看安保議題也有不同的角度。我剛剛跟委員報告的是，我們是從現在早苗首相政府的相關政策立場來做評估的……"],["謝委員龍介：既然如此，為什麼蔡總統可以在穩定中去尋求突破……"],["蔡局長明彥：現在也是、現在也是。"],["謝委員龍介：賴總統則準備要結合美、日來對中國大陸進行威脅，這兩個差異性在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛才跟委員說明，第一部分，我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定，但是維持兩岸穩定的過程當中，我們不能夠只寄望在中國的善意，而應該跟國際友盟，不管在經濟安全，或是在安保安全上，都能夠有更多的合作，來確保區域的現狀……"],["謝委員龍介：花了5,000、6,000億的錢，武器都沒來，你現在還要聯合他們來跟人家吵架，這樣就是說一套做一套啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，強化國防，我想這是全民的共識啦！"],["謝委員龍介：對，就錢花了，武器沒進來，現在你的戰略還要找日本、美國和我們一起跟中國大陸吵架，這樣跟蔡總統的政策事實上就是不同，為什麼？這兩個差異性在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，還是有延續性，主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定，同時加強友盟的合作，我想臺灣在這個部分的政策立場都還是有延續性。"],["謝委員龍介：本席是肯定蔡總統還可以在穩定中去尋求突破，所以你們不要「嚓嚓趒」，「草蜢仔弄雞公」，到時候「雞公」如果「噗噗跳」，說不定「草蜢仔」就被人家「捅」了。感謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，我們的政策都是力求穩定，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：接下來請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da519cbe33977c6826c2b08d4a2736e01e2ba3c61875d63c71359f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:03:37 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主席 請到國務部長國務部長 謝謝站位好國務部長 拜一就前天台灣有好多個環保團體到行政院跟立法院來陳情"},{"start":49.537,"end":71.406,"text":"他們抗議的是說包括烏山頭水庫設這個光電板等他們說最近光電有十大亂象所以他們提出了十大這個訴求我看你們經濟部回應也蠻快的你們當天的下午就對於他們的訴求有提出這個回應這部分的快速回應我要加以肯定不過呢"},{"start":72.725,"end":98.026,"text":"我看你們的這個回應的新聞稿啊好像出現了前後矛盾這環保團體明確要求說有些地方設光電板要納入環評包括國家公園以及環境敏感區我看你的新聞裡面回應你說 來 博定你看一下這是你們自己發的新聞稿嘛是回應的嘛你說"},{"start":99.229,"end":123.746,"text":"一級環境敏感區山坡地等訴求都已經納入有嗎 目前你們跟環境部你們兩位都猛點頭有確定有納入嗎環評法裡面國家公園啊野生動物保護區啊還有這個山坡地如果超過15公頃以上的就是你這邊現在都要環評現行的規定就是要環評"},{"start":124.935,"end":153.192,"text":"這些規定 一級環境敏感區我找你叫你們 我有印出來喔你們這個標準裡面沒有出現這個字眼啊是 一級 這個是一個我不曉得怎麼去定義但是我們明確的就是國家公園還有山坡地如果是沒有沒有沒有 不定不定國家公園跟山坡地是另外的一級環境敏感區是另外專有名詞是一個明定的 對不對"},{"start":154.554,"end":173.742,"text":"那裡面沒有嘛 我跟你講一級敏感地區我們本來就不會核准他本來就禁止來來來 這專有名詞耶你頂法律要照條文來這個是內政部國土署環境敏感地區查詢平台上面寫的這不能隨便 隨便亂講耶來 看一下22項包括什麼"},{"start":183.649,"end":200.796,"text":"包括第21項水庫的集水區包括水庫的蓄水範圍有嗎所以柏定你們現在是已經公布說包括烏山頭水庫包括所有的水庫蓄水範圍的全部都要做環評嗎"},{"start":202.443,"end":218.65,"text":"這個水庫跟那個蓄水範圍因為它一定有法令的規定所以我們是依照其他法令的規定所以你看這個新聞稿就自打嘴巴了嘛你講的這個一級環境敏感區這個是專有名詞是明定的我現在給你看的是國土屬清清楚楚名列的"},{"start":219.861,"end":239.037,"text":"那如果照這樣就是你就跟全國公布好消息就包括現在開始水庫上面的任何光電板都要還平是不是這樣結果沒有嘛 你們又沒有還沒做這個嘛 對不對所以你這個新聞稿是不是有漏洞用字引起了誤會甚至是自己前後就矛盾了嘛所以我們把它更正好好不好"},{"start":240.064,"end":260.774,"text":"好 這個我們可以來釐清 如果它裡面有特別反應的話你看你的新聞過來 回到新聞館再看一下你說把一級的敏感區域已經全部都納入嘛結果你下面又寫一個說其他項目 例如說水庫的水面你們正在做這個相關的檢討"},{"start":263.26,"end":287.514,"text":"這個就前後就矛盾了嘛所以趕快更正好不好好OK我本來以為是好消息我今天本來很期待說如果不是前後矛盾就是你們已經因為像我們台灣民眾島就明確我們也在討論我們要求說5公頃設置光電板5公頃以上1萬千瓦以上的就要環評嘛你們說還沒訂嘛對不對所以你這個新聞稿是有錯誤的嘛趕快把它更正好好不好好來趕快把它更正好接下來"},{"start":288.715,"end":317.712,"text":"是不是出現了環境部打臉了經濟部啊來我看您來我們看下一張你講到這個水庫上面光電板水上光電板這個到底有沒有毒的你們發了一個新聞稿說啊經過你們這個專業的這個測試啊RO逆滲透水這個浸泡毀壞光電板這光電板毀壞了破碎了你們去做了實驗七天以後水質跟這個飲用水標準還是符合的"},{"start":318.298,"end":319.912,"text":"那我要問的很重要那三個月後呢"},{"start":323.155,"end":345.904,"text":"這個水質的測試那麼我們自來水公司它進水的時候每天都有做測試那剛才講這個是工研院當時做的7日測試當然要做更長也可以我說你說7天安全我說如果三個月以後有安全嗎來我看一下你看你們的標準你們的飲水飲水安全的標準是什麼用鉛來做你們的飲水安全是1公升0.01毫克對不對這個是合乎標準對不對"},{"start":352.042,"end":371.763,"text":"好來看一下這是環境部做的環境部做的喔上去環境部的網站上面看那個投影片現在都還找得到他說把光電板破碎浸泡一個月跟三個月的簽的容出量"},{"start":373.555,"end":389.79,"text":"這邊紅胎 咖哩這邊 但那是紅胎 光電板不是被破壞了對不對破碎啦 有些沉到水裡面去啦 那來看依照環境部的這個模擬容數的簽在一個月的時候 0.00076到了三個月 0.298"},{"start":397.844,"end":413.15,"text":"保證0.298這個容數非常嚴重耶這就是已經超過你的飲水水質的標準你剛才看的安全就是0.01嘛 對不對他是那幾倍他是幾倍 他有兩個很重要 來來保證你們說安全是0.01對不對這個是水源啦 0.029是在水源區嘛水源區的話是0.05"},{"start":425.569,"end":432.462,"text":"對0.05的標準那你要飲用水還要經過過濾處理啊等等一些情況那為什麼環境部要去做烏山土的這個水質的測驗"},{"start":434.926,"end":454.403,"text":"你看這是他們做的啊本來你整個水庫的水質就是要做測驗啊文建部也這樣做啊那我給你看他做出來的來上一張做出來的他做出來的是什麼包括烏山頭水庫的你如他去取樣嘛對不對他說如果浸泡完之後一個月七天沒問題嘛對不對他一個月沒問題啊"},{"start":457.742,"end":468.196,"text":"可是 沙灰的問題啊 它有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個 它超標的 你們說的安全的標準沙灰沒有沒有超標 它是小於0.05啊它是小於0.05啊 這個飲用的這個水質 飲用水源啊那右邊那個呢"},{"start":474.173,"end":493.981,"text":"那個是以後 你說的是水質 那是處理後的 右邊那個是處理完以後我們 對啊 所以他們全部 就是環境部全部這兩個都做嘛你懂我意思嗎 那你至少 當然水質水源水質是要符合的 水質當然也是要標準的啊你先來看 我要先講兩個重點來來來 第一個來 你聽我說 聽我說 第一他的"},{"start":500.934,"end":521.668,"text":"0.029超過了原來的水質標準的3倍 更嚴重是什麼來來來 你做個比較1月份 你聽我說啦民眾有這個疑問嘛我們開過會很多民眾在投訴這個事情嘛1月到3月增加幾倍39.2倍就表示你這個事情 保定只要你這個事情沒有做好"},{"start":523.203,"end":547.296,"text":"他的簽的容數量一直在增加嘛一個月你自己新聞稿跟民眾講說7天7天沒問題對不對你自己也做檢測說7天沒問題啊結果一個月已經開始慢慢有問題了更嚴重的過三個月多了39.2倍那現在嚴重在什麼地方我現在跟你講一個很重要的不只是環境部他們自己去做的烏山頭水質還做了這個破碎的這個整個測驗那我們看下一張嘉義這邊紅苔"},{"start":553.311,"end":576.938,"text":"聯合報啊 聯合報在9月19號 就是颱風過後的兩個多月 聯合報喔 去做專題報導 去追裡面還有很多的是毀壞的光電板 還躺在水裡我到了三個月 就剛講了 過了三個月 我店面給你看 裡面有很多光電板說禮拜一 很多這個環保團體來"},{"start":579.922,"end":607.116,"text":"來陳情的時候 他們特別提什麼森林城市協會的理事長莊傑任他怎麼說他說這邊虹胎造成的這個製虹紙或者水面的這個整個掉到裡面去 他說什麼光電板存入水下 難以打撈清楚歐盛聯盟裡一個月到三個月增加那麼多到現在有些可能都還沒清出來現在要怎麼辦 簽一直在釋出嘛 對不對"},{"start":608.571,"end":628.865,"text":"簽的容量還一直在釋出嘛你到現在可能還簽不乾淨我可以講一個很重要的很多民眾在旁邊像那個嘉義市的志鴻池旁邊有很多民眾在那邊垂釣釣回去那個魚有民眾叫我今天問你啦說那個魚釣回來給部長吃給能源署署長吃"},{"start":634.417,"end":662.876,"text":"我說我不要這樣問你可是你們是不是有責任志鴻池不能有魚啦志鴻池不能有魚志鴻池不能有魚每個志鴻池都買有魚你等一下去看你每次去都買看到有人在那邊垂釣不行啊裡面就是有魚啊所以民眾說叫我問你啊說釣回來給你吃好不好我說不要這樣問部長你們的責任就是趕快把它打撈乾淨然後更重要的不要讓那個錢繼續存在危害民眾好不好"},{"start":664.549,"end":686.263,"text":"我們還是會持續檢驗啦因為我們原水的部分只要進到我們飲用水的部分原水就會檢驗一次飲用水也會檢驗一次啦到目前為止來講的話都沒有超過標準容量容息量非常的少而且人體危害很厲害好不好而且我剛才跟你講它影響有多大你看 氫對健康有多大影響"},{"start":688.423,"end":702.417,"text":"幾乎對人體內所有器官跟系統都有影響所以我們取水的時候取水點就會檢測取水點那個部分就會檢測所以你要盡量減少嘛 對不對來 我給你看它的傷害有多大嘛影響成人跟孩童的神經系統"},{"start":703.814,"end":732.639,"text":"然後呢他不要講長期曝露喔只要曝露就導致會貧血血壓升高特別是小孩子你看下面這個我幫你整理了牽對孩童的健康部長你把詳細的資料能夠跟我們的委員做報告這個很重要不要有讓人家誤解的地方再麻煩部長謝謝因為時間已經到了我儘快一分鐘儘快做結論來往下跑我現在跟你講特別對小孩影響很大那日本日本都發生了"},{"start":733.599,"end":761.989,"text":"在水庫上面的它不是飲水的它是一般的灌溉用的發生了這個風災的時候火災那光電板當然那個簽了那個壞掉以後簽那個容疏就更嚴重了對不對結果發現要去消防要去滅火非常的困難在台灣發生的是什麼看來台灣經濟咱們台南這個漁電工生也發生了那個光電板起火消防人員沒辦法馬上去救火你知道嗎水是倒體嘛"},{"start":763.254,"end":787.873,"text":"對不對 會顛倒捏所以我說光電板火災或者是它發生有災難的時候你們要怎麼救災避免光電板壞掉以後融到水裡面牽絲這要做好最後做這個訴求來第一個 趕快去釐清剛你承認的那個你所謂的水庫或水面上水上型的光電板你到底什麼狀況下要做環評你剛承認那個新聞稿有錯誤嘛 對不對"},{"start":788.593,"end":815.702,"text":"所以趕快去把它更正把標準把它明確的定出來那第二個目前有很多地方包括水庫自風室上面都有光電板你要去加強它的安全這個維護好不好第三個很重要我剛才說的打撈那環保團體前天來行政院就跟你們講嘛打撈不乾淨那你們要趕快去打撈要想想辦法不能讓那個鉛這樣一直在釋出好不好然後剛剛講的就是如果發生這個災難的時候我們要去救活要有一個指引做演練好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時4分）謝謝主席，請龔部長。"],["主席：龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：龔部長，禮拜一，也就是前天，臺灣有好多個環保團體到行政院跟立法院來陳情，他們抗議的是包括烏山頭水庫設光電板等，他們說最近光電有十大亂象，所以他們提出了十大訴求。我看你們經濟部回應也滿快的，你們在當天下午就有對他們的訴求提出回應，這部分的快速回應，我要加以肯定。不過我看你們回應的新聞稿好像出現了前後矛盾，環保團體明確要求說，有些地方設光電板要納入環評，包括國家公園、一級環境敏感區，但是請部長看一下，這是你們自己發的回應的新聞稿，裡面說一級環境敏感區、山坡地等訴求都已經納入，有嗎？目前你們跟環境部……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，環評法裡面……"],["張委員啓楷：你們兩位都猛點頭，確定有納入嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，環評法裡面規定國家公園、野生動物保護區，還有山坡地如果超過15公頃以上，現在都要環評，現行的規定這些就是要環評。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我有印出來，你們這個標準裡面沒有出現「一級環境敏感區」這個字眼。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，這個「一級」是一個……我不曉得怎麼去定義，但是我們明確規定的就是國家公園，還有山坡地如果超過15公頃……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，國家公園跟山坡地是另外的，一級環境敏感區是另外的專有名詞，是明定的，對不對？那裡面沒有嘛！"],["李署長君禮：一級敏感地區我們本來就不會核准，它本來就禁止。"],["張委員啓楷：這是專有名詞，法律規定要照條文來，這個是內政部國土署環境敏感地區查詢平台上面寫的，這個不能隨便亂講，看一下，一級環境敏感地區有22項，包括什麼？包括第21項水庫集水區，還有包括水庫蓄水範圍，有嗎？所以部長，你們現在是已經公布，包括烏山頭水庫、包括所有的水庫，蓄水範圍的部分全部都要做環評嗎？"],["李署長君禮：不是，水庫跟蓄水範圍因為另有法令的規定，所以我們是依照其他法令的規定。"],["張委員啓楷：你看，所以這個新聞稿就自打嘴巴了嘛！你講的這個「一級環境敏感區」，這個是專有名詞、是明定的，我現在給你看的是國土署清清楚楚明列的，如果照這樣，你就跟全國公布好消息，從現在開始，水庫上面的任何光電板都要環評，是不是這樣？結果沒有嘛！你們又還沒有做這個，所以這個新聞稿是不是有漏洞？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，另外的法律……"],["張委員啓楷：用字引起誤會，甚至是自己前後就矛盾了嘛！請你們把它更正好，好不好？"],["李署長君禮：好，這個我們可以來釐清，如果它裡面有特別以法令規定的地方。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看你的新聞稿，裡面說一級環境敏感區域已經全部都納入，結果下面又寫，其他項目例如水庫水面，你們正在做相關的檢討，這個就前後矛盾了嘛！所以趕快更正，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：我本來以為是好消息，我今天本來很期待，如果不是前後矛盾，就是你們已經……因為像我們台灣民眾黨就明確……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們有在討論。"],["張委員啓楷：我們要求設置光電板5公頃以上、1萬瓩以上的就要環評，你們說還沒訂嘛！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你這個新聞稿是有錯誤的，趕快把它更正，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來，是不是出現了環境部打臉經濟部啊？講到水面光電板到底有沒有毒，你們發了一個新聞稿說，經過你們委託專業單位測試，以RO逆滲透水浸泡損壞光電板，所以光電板毀壞了、破碎了，你們去做了實驗，7天以後水質還是符合飲用水標準。我就要問，很重要的，那3個月後呢？"],["李署長君禮：這個水質的測試，自來水公司進水的時候每天都有做測試，剛才講的這個是工研院當時做的7日測試，當然要做更長也可以。"],["張委員啓楷：你做7天是安全的，但如果是3個月以後還安全嗎？你看你們的標準，你們飲用水水質安全的標準是什麼？以鉛為例，你們的飲水安全標準是一公升0.01毫克，對不對？這樣是合乎標準的。看一下，這是環境部做的，大家去環境部的網站上面看投影片，現在都還找得到，上面有把光電板破碎，檢測浸泡1個月跟3個月的鉛溶出量。嘉義這次丹娜絲颱風，光電板被吹壞了、破壞了、破碎了，也是沉到水裡面去了，依照環境部的模擬，溶出的鉛在1個月的時候是0.00076mg/L，到了三個月是0.298 mg/L。部長，0.298 mg/L，這個溶出的結果非常嚴重，這就已經超過你的飲水水質標準，你剛才看的安全標準就是0.01 mg/L，對不對？它是那個的幾倍？它有兩個很重要的，部長，你們說安全標準是0.01 mg/L，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這個是水源啦！0.029 mg/L是在水源區嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：水源區的話是0.05 mg/L的標準，飲用水還要經過過濾處理等等一些情況。"],["張委員啓楷：那為什麼環境部要去做烏山頭水質的檢測？你看，這是他們做的，本來整個水庫的水質就是要做檢測，環境部也這樣做啊！我給你看它做出來的結果是什麼，包括烏山頭水庫的，它去取樣，然後說，像你說的，如果浸泡7天，沒問題，1個月也沒問題，可是3個月就有問題了。它有兩個很嚴重的問題，第一個，它超標了，是你們說的安全標準的3倍。"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，沒有超標，它是小於0.05mg/L，這是飲用水源的標準。"],["張委員啓楷：右邊那個呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：那個是飲用水。"],["張委員啓楷：你說的是水質。"],["龔部長明鑫：那是處理後的，右邊那個是處理完以後，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！環境部這兩個都做嘛！你懂我的意思嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為它的水源……"],["張委員啓楷：當然水源要符合標準，水質當然也是要符合標準啊！你先聽我說兩個重點，很重要，第一個，它的0.029超過了原來水質標準的3倍，更嚴重的是，你做個比較，1月份……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是，它沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我說啦！民眾有這個疑問，我們開過會，很多民眾都在投訴這個事情。1月到3月增加幾倍？39.2倍，部長，就表示只要你這件事情沒有做好，它的鉛的溶出量一直在增加，你自己的新聞稿也跟民眾說，7天沒問題，對不對？你們自己也做檢測，你說7天沒問題啊！結果1個月就已經開始慢慢有問題了，更嚴重的是，過3個月後，多了39.2倍，現在嚴重在什麼地方？我現在跟你講一個很重要的，不只是環境部去做了烏山頭水庫水質檢測，還做了破碎的整個測驗。","嘉義在這次颱風過後，聯合報在9月19日，就是颱風過後的兩個多月，去做專題報導、去追，發現裡面有很多毀壞的光電板還躺在水裡，過了3個月，我上次有拿給你看，對不對？裡面有很多光電板，禮拜一很多環保團體來陳情的時候，他們特別提到什麼？森林城市協會的理事長莊傑任怎麼說？這次颱風造成光電板掉到滯洪池或者水裡面，他說什麼？他說，光電板沉入水下，難以打撈清除。我現在問你，1個月到3個月增加那麼多，到現在有些可能都還沒清出來，現在要怎麼辦？鉛還一直在釋出嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，還是要測……"],["張委員啓楷：你到現在可能還清不乾淨，我跟你講一個很重要的，很多民眾在旁邊，像嘉義的滯洪池，旁邊有很多民眾在那邊垂釣，釣回去的魚……有民眾叫我今天問你，說那個魚如果釣回來給部長吃、給能源署署長吃，你們敢吃嗎？我說我不要這樣問你，可是你們是不是有責任？"],["龔部長明鑫：滯洪池不能有魚。"],["張委員啓楷：滯洪池不能有魚？每個滯洪池都有魚！你等一下去看，每次去都會看到有人在那邊垂釣。"],["龔部長明鑫：不行啦。"],["張委員啓楷：裡面就是有魚啊！所以民眾說叫我問你，說釣回來給你吃，好不好？我說不要這樣問部長，你們的責任就是趕快把它打撈乾淨，然後更重要的是，不要讓那個鉛繼續存在，危害民眾，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們還是會持續檢驗，因為只要進到飲用水的部分，原水就會檢驗一次，飲用水也會檢驗一次，到目前為止都沒有超過標準……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，鉛的容許量非常地少，對人體危害很大，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是啊，所以它原水的部分就是0.05……"],["張委員啓楷：而且我剛剛已經跟你講它一直在增加，它影響有多大？你看，鉛對健康有多大影響，幾乎對人體內所有器官跟系統都有影響。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們取水的時候，取水點就會檢測。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以你要儘量減少嘛，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我給你看它的傷害有多大，影響成人跟孩童的神經系統，然後不要講長期暴露，只要暴露就會導致貧血、血壓升高，特別是小孩子，你看下面這個，我幫你整理了，鉛對孩童的健康……"],["主席：謝謝。拜託部長提供詳細的資料跟委員報告，這個很重要，不要有讓人家誤解的地方，再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：因為時間已經到了，我儘快，1分鐘，我儘快做結論。","我現在跟你講，特別對小孩影響很大。日本都發生了在水庫上面的，它不是飲水的，它是一般灌溉用的，它在風災之後發生火災，光電板壞掉以後，當然鉛的溶出就更嚴重了，結果發現消防要去滅火非常地困難。在臺灣發生的是什麼？臺灣前一陣子，臺南的漁電共生也發生了光電板起火，消防人員沒辦法馬上去救火，你知道嗎？因為水是導體，會電到的！所以我說光電板火災或者它發生災難的時候，你們要知道怎麼救災，避免光電板壞掉以後溶到水裡面把鉛釋放出來。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我做這個訴求：第一個，趕快去釐清剛剛你承認的那個，你所謂的水庫或水面上的水上型光電板到底在什麼狀況下要做環評？你剛剛承認那個新聞稿有錯誤嘛，所以趕快去把它更正，把標準明確地訂出來。第二個，目前有很多地方，包括水庫、滯洪池上面都有光電板，你要去加強它的安全維護，好不好？第三個也很重要，剛才說的打撈，環保團體前天去行政院就跟你們講，打撈不乾淨，你們要趕快去打撈，要想想辦法，不能讓鉛一直釋出，好不好？還有剛剛講的，如果發生災難的時候，怎麼樣去救火，要有一個指引，做演練，好不好？謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員質詢，謝謝部長跟所有相關同仁答詢。","現在請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da510025216773d795a4599e9b62584ab3efa3c61875d63c7135d1d510c8f51747fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:04:20 - 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我們是不是有請國安局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 需要有人找"},{"start":12.146,"end":35.937,"text":"早 那今天想要詢問就是在月中的時候那中共官方呢他們呢其實也不是第一次了那他們有貼出這個懸賞我國這個新戰大隊人員的個資跟照片那當然我知道他是隸屬國防部的政戰局新戰大隊但是呢他這個是攸關國安問題所以今天也想要來詢問一下國安局的"},{"start":37.177,"end":58.123,"text":"那除了這個國防部主管之外那我想要請問國安局在這個議題上面的研究那狀態到底是什麼樣子然後呢後續有沒有能夠協處的這個情形謝委員關切這個問題因為這涉及到我們國軍官兵的個資還有甚至是人身安全"},{"start":58.963,"end":81.819,"text":"那已經有幾波的中共公佈這樣的我們的國軍官兵的個資那大概的狀況有點就是在進行所謂的常備管轄進行這種心理戰或輿論的一個恫嚇那這些名單以委員現在畫面所呈現的新戰大隊來講那有很多是中共方面他透過公開情資去做拼湊的"},{"start":83.18,"end":107.034,"text":"委員可能會知道因為新戰隊的這些相關的國軍官兵的同仁他們有的都是在我們的國軍的媒體當記者包括像是那個青年日報或是漢森電台所以從公開情資就可以收集到早年歷來的這些相關的個資那中共只是把這些過去公開的個資做拼湊"},{"start":107.654,"end":120.162,"text":"那一些照片也貼錯了然後那個身份也都是錯誤的那甚至可以跟我們報告還有當事人跑去警局報案我理解喔因為我有看到相關的新聞但是因為這個錯誤的資訊喔它也有錯誤資訊衍生的這個問題"},{"start":125.626,"end":139.708,"text":"就是說呢他現在發布這個懸賞通告那如果他有一些是錯誤的資訊那但是有這樣子一個當事人那他未來他可能這個到港澳或者是說他到中國大陸的時候他被懸賞了那他可能其實"},{"start":140.469,"end":161.651,"text":"他可以去的原因是因為他根本就不是他根本就不是我們的星戰的這個隊員那他當然他是沒有管制嘛那他當然是可以到大陸或是港澳那結果呢他竟然是在因為一個錯誤資訊然後是被懸賞的這個狀態那對這上面的這些當事人來說是不是他就變成是一個缺乏保護的機制"},{"start":162.552,"end":185.462,"text":"那我們在國安局在這整個包含是我們這個星戰大隊實際上面就是說正確的資訊的引力避免這個中共的這個掌握或是滲透以及錯誤的資訊上面如何去保障我們國人他不管在旅遊或者是他平常時行動的這個安全上面那局長這裡有沒有一些可以提供說明跟參考"},{"start":186.082,"end":206.183,"text":"大概跟委員做幾個面向的資訊的補充跟說明那第一個部分是怎麼樣來防範有國軍官兵弟兄的個資外流的部分那這個議題因為前一陣子馬文君委員也有關切那也希望本局提供一個本局的做法來給國防部的單位做參考"},{"start":206.724,"end":233.966,"text":"那我們已經有完整的把這個本局的做法跟馬委員這邊提供書面的報告那也把這個書面的報告提供給國防部做參考希望能夠來阻止進一步的國軍官兵弟兄資訊的外流這是第一部分那第二部分是有一些被外流的這些名單那假如是過去曾經在國防部服役的弟兄因為剛剛有跟委員說明因為過去的公開情資有可能國軍包括接受頒獎還有擔任記者都會有名單外流"},{"start":234.286,"end":259.086,"text":"那這部分國防部我來幫國防部說明一下雖然不是我的夜館那他們有一個輔導的機制那會逐一的來跟這些同仁來做接觸跟說明那看有沒有要協助的地方包括他們的家人那有沒有在假如到對岸去經商旅遊遭到刁難所以是有一個機制在的那再來就是委員所提到的第三種狀況他不是當事人但是被貼錯了"},{"start":260.307,"end":277.896,"text":"那個頭像以及資訊那這部分確實也要來注意所以我剛才跟委員說明也曾經有當事人遇到這個狀況去跟警方報案他覺得他可能會被誤解那這方面希望說國安局可以多一些協助是因為國防部他們基本上第一個業務眾多那第二個可能他們在這個"},{"start":279.517,"end":302.791,"text":"除了這個被發布宣傳通告啊然後有這個接獲消息啊然後或者是說有報案的情況之下可能會去協處但是整體的這個情資的蒐集那我覺得國安局這裡如果能夠協同然後提供相關的這個訊息給國防部雙邊一起協處的話那會更完善因為像您剛提到的三個層次那三個層次都很重要"},{"start":303.511,"end":331.257,"text":"但是從國防部的角度來說他可能關注的比較多是他們自己國防部本身新站大隊的成員所以希望在這整個三個層次上面國安局能夠多多給予國防部更多的協助跟委員說明一下因為那個征戰局本來也就是我們國安情報機關的一個成員所以我們應該會透過我們的機制來另外有一個問題就是關於這個中這個央廣的微波站入侵的這個問題"},{"start":334.578,"end":355.387,"text":"這個當時因為央廣其實是我們國家重要的基礎設施先前有點時間了10月15號的事情那時候我本來就想要詢問不過時間的關係有三名內鬼工程師攻擊官網然後放置中共的五星旗的資安事件當時也有不少的委員來做詢問"},{"start":356.627,"end":378.033,"text":"但是另外在去年9月的時候在陽廣的後方圓山山腰的微波站是不是也有一起外籍人士入侵的事件就是說一個德國籍的年輕人他用觀光的名義入境無故侵入了微波發射台的機房內意外遭到反鎖他就沒有辦法離開"},{"start":379.213,"end":407.949,"text":"那這個人呢他試圖想要開門但花了好幾個小時那沒有成功那最後呢這個發給德國跟家人朋友求救那後來向外交部去報案那在這個情況之下那國安局對於類似的情況有沒有掌握然後呢像這種到了我們的關鍵基礎設施因為不管他的國籍是什麼他都有可能是都有可能不是說這個人都有可能是被滲透的情況"},{"start":408.709,"end":435.146,"text":"因為呢 那今天你要滲透或者是說要入侵關鍵基礎設施他不一定要他本國籍的人來做這件事情他也可以委託或是暗示或者是用滲透他國的國籍人員的方式來做這件事情所以說對於我們的關鍵基礎設施不管他是遭到哪一個國籍的人去進去裡面一整個晚上那其實他就是一個關鍵基礎設施的重大漏洞"},{"start":435.646,"end":459.524,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說以這個事情為例我們在關鍵基礎設施上面要怎麼樣的去做一個國安局有怎麼樣的一個想法就是說我們做好保防的這個措施那盡量就避免不管是說先前的這個大家比較關注的五星旗的這個資安事件或者我覺得更嚴重的是它人直接就進到了這個這個發射機房裡面"},{"start":463.948,"end":480.73,"text":"那可不可以請這個局長幫我們做一個說明委員說的沒有錯因為央廣不是一般的廣播公司它在國家緊急危難的時候是負責公眾傳播的所以是定位為關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的維護行政院有相關的跨部會的匯報"},{"start":481.491,"end":501.958,"text":"那委員所提到的問題我們會我們是成員部委會報的成員我們會來做比較完整的反應大概有兩個重點一個部分是資安的部分那剛剛也在跟馬文君委員做說明很多委外的這些資安公司他可能有一些涉入的背景那這個部分可能要做一個比較完整的規範那第二個是實體安全的部分"},{"start":502.378,"end":524.042,"text":"那公司被不明人士入侵的話那這個部分就代表可能在保安或是保全的維護措施是真的是有明顯的不足當然就關鍵基礎設施的防護在進入到國家比較特殊的狀態之下是會派遣相關的兵力來保護的但是委員在提醒的是在平常情況就應該要更關注這樣的"},{"start":524.802,"end":546.387,"text":"因為他在那個微波發射站機台機房裡面那如果今天這個人他代表這裡有重大的漏洞他如果他今天真的有什麼樣的一個他去輸入發射或是他做任何的這個指示可能就會造成整個我們國家的錯誤的這個消息來源所以說既然有一個外籍人士他就可以跑進去了"},{"start":546.787,"end":569.993,"text":"代表這裡有漏洞那希望可以重新檢視這一些在陳平時期非戰時的關鍵基礎設施那有沒有一些實體上面的漏洞除了資安之外實體上的漏洞那重新的去檢查一次避免類似的情況發生就行政院的那個關鍵基礎設施的防護匯報的話我們來把委員剛剛的意見來做一個表達謝謝徐小青委員局長請回接下來進行詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時4分）謝謝主席，是不是有請國安局長？"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早！今天想要詢問就是在月中的時候，中共官方其實也不是第一次，他們有貼出懸賞我國心戰大隊人員的個資跟照片，當然我知道這是隸屬國防部政戰局心戰大隊，但這個是攸關國安問題，所以今天也想要來詢問一下國安局的看法。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：除了國防部主管之外，我想要請問國安局在這個議題上面的研究狀態到底是什麼樣子？後續有沒有能夠協處的情形？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員關切這個問題，因為這涉及到國軍官兵的個資甚至是人身安全。中共已經公布了幾波我們國軍官兵的個資，大概的狀況有點就是在進行所謂長臂管轄這種心理戰或輿論的恫嚇。這些名單以委員現在畫面所呈現的心戰大隊來講，很多是中共方面透過公開情資去拼湊的。委員可能也知道，心戰大隊這些相關的國軍官兵同仁，他們有的都是在我們國軍的媒體當記者，包括像是青年日報或是漢聲電台，所以從公開情資就可以蒐集到早年、歷來的相關個資，中共只是把過去這些公開的個資做拼湊，有些照片也貼錯了，身分也都是錯誤的，甚至可以跟委員報告，還有當事人跑去警局報案的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我理解，因為我也有看到相關新聞。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我的意思是，那些是錯誤的資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是因為這個錯誤的資訊也會有錯誤資訊衍生的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：它現在發布這個懸賞通告，如果有一些是錯誤的資訊，但卻有這樣的一個當事人，未來他可能到港澳或者是到中國大陸的時候，因為他被懸賞了，但他可以去的原因其實可能是因為他根本就不是我們的心戰隊員而沒被管制，他當然就可以到大陸或是港澳，結果他竟然就因為一個錯誤的資訊而處於被懸賞的狀態，這對上面的這些當事人來說是不是就變成了一個缺乏保護的機制？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們在國安局、在包含這個心戰大隊實際上……正確資訊的隱匿係為避免中共的掌握或滲透，對於錯誤的資訊要如何保障國人不管在旅遊或者是平常行動的安全？局長這裡有沒有一些可以提供說明跟參考的？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，大概跟委員做幾個面向的資訊補充跟說明。第一個部分是怎麼防範我國軍官兵弟兄個資外流的部分，這個議題因為前一陣子馬文君委員也有關切，也希望本局提供一個本局的作法給國防部的單位做參考。我們已經完整地把本局的作法向馬委員提供書面的報告，也把這個書面的報告提供給國防部做參考，希望能夠阻止國軍官兵弟兄的資訊被進一步地外流，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分是，有一些被外流的名單，假如是過去曾經在國防部服役的弟兄，因為剛剛有跟委員說明，過去的公開情資國軍有可能包括接受頒獎、擔任記者都會有名單外流。這部分我要幫國防部說明一下，雖然這不是我的業管，他們有一個輔導的機制，會逐一地跟這些同仁接觸跟說明，看有沒有要協助的地方，包括他們的家人假如到對岸去經商、旅遊遭到刁難，所以是有一個機制在的。","再來就是委員所提到的第三種狀況，他不是當事人，但是被貼錯了頭像以及資訊，這部分確實也要注意，所以我剛才也跟委員說明，也曾經有當事人遇到這種狀況而去跟警方報案，他覺得他可能會被……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這方面希望國安局可以多協助一些，因為國防部基本上第一個他們業務眾多；第二個，他們可能除了被發布懸賞通告，然後有接獲消息，或者是在有報案的情況之下，可能要去協處，但是對於整體情資的蒐集，我覺得國安局這裡如果能夠協同，然後提供相關的訊息給國防部，由雙邊一起協處的話就會更完善。","因為像您剛剛提到的三個層次，那三個層次都很重要，但是從國防部的角度來說，它關注比較多的可能是他們國防部自己本身心戰大隊的成員，所以希望在這三個層次上面，國安局能夠給予國防部更多的協助。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。跟委員說明一下，因為政戰局本來就是我們國安情報機關的成員……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們應該會透過我們的機制來協助。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外有個問題是，關於央廣微波站被入侵的問題，因為央廣是我們國家重要的基礎設施，先前在10月15號算是有點時間的事情，那個時候我本來就想詢問，不過受限於時間的關係。有3名內鬼工程師攻擊官網並放置中共五星旗的資安事件，當時也有不少委員詢問過；另外在去年9月的時候，央廣後方（圓山山腰的微波站）是不是也有一起外籍人士入侵的事件？就是說，有個德國籍的年輕人，他用觀光的名義入境，無故侵入微波發射台的機房內，意外遭到反鎖而無法離開。這個人試圖想要開門，但卻花了好幾個小時都沒有成功，最後只好發給德國的家人、朋友求救，後來也向外交部報案。","在這個情況之下，國安局對於類似的情況有沒有掌握？像這種到了我們的關鍵基礎設施的……因為不管他的國籍是什麼，他都有可能（我不是指這個人）是被滲透的情況。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為今天你要滲透或者是要入侵關鍵基礎設施，並不一定要本國籍的人來做這件事情，也可以委託、暗示或是用滲透他國國籍人員的方式來做這件事情，所以對於我們的關鍵基礎設施，不管是遭到哪一個國籍的人進去裡面一整個晚上，它其實就是一個關鍵基礎設施的重大漏洞。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我想問的是，以這個事情為例，我們在關鍵基礎設施上面要怎麼去防護，國安局有怎樣的想法？也就是我們要做好保防的措施，儘量去避免不管是先前大家比較關注的五星旗資安事件，或者是更嚴重的，人直接就進到了發射機房裡面，可不可以請局長幫我們做個說明？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。委員說的沒錯，因為央廣不是一般的廣播公司，它在國家緊急危難的時候是負責公眾傳播的，所以被定位為關鍵基礎設施。有關關鍵基礎設施的維護，行政院有相關跨部會的會報，而我們是成員。對於委員所提到的問題，我們會做比較完整的反映。大概有兩個重點，一個是資安的部分，剛剛也跟馬文君委員說明過了，很多委外的資安公司可能有一些涉入的背景，這個部分可能要做一個比較完整的規範。","第二個是實體安全的部分，公司被不明人士入侵的話，這個部分就代表可能在保安或保全的維護措施上是真的有明顯地不足。當然，就關鍵基礎設施的防護上，在進入到國家比較特殊的狀態之下，是會派遣相關的兵力來保護的。但委員在提醒的是，在平常的情況就應該要更關注這樣的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！因為他是在微波發射站的基台、機房裡面，代表這裡有重大的漏洞，如果他今天真的有什麼樣的舉動，像是去輸入發射或是做出任何的指示，可能就會造成我們整個國家錯誤的消息來源。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：既然有一個外籍人士可以跑進去，代表這裡有漏洞，希望可以重新檢視這些在承平時期、非戰時的關鍵基礎設施除了資安之外，有沒有一些實體上面的漏洞，請重新檢查一次，以避免類似的情況發生，好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：就行政院的關鍵基礎設施的防護會報，我們會把委員剛剛的意見做一個表達。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答的是謝龍介委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5195ed1065f4b95498d0e1721cc507f77aa3c61875d63c713532eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:00:18 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你如果英文給3分好 謝謝主席 我們請任市長請任市長委員長好 任市長早最近這個我看到台北市議員提出來說首都的公務員要有加級這你有看過這個新聞嗎"},{"start":38.19,"end":61.104,"text":"這個問題其實我們內部也有討論幾個檔案那就是跟有一點類似裁劃法那個定義還有範圍就是每一個人都有你知道他的概念就是你首都是台北市還是雙北都要算市你如果說台北市有進來新北市就沒進來一定台北一定更漂亮那我請問一下這個"},{"start":63.396,"end":73.291,"text":"雙北啦 雙北有哪些 哪一類的公務員哪幾類公務員都想要逃離雙北想要調到別的地方你有沒有概念雙北喔"},{"start":78.584,"end":95.787,"text":"是山北做什麼套路的啦 他應該是公務人員他很想要調去中南部的 如果調不走的 都會找名義代表說敢不敢把我們調回去中南部你說的那個有可能是警消吧對 就是警消 他為什麼要去中南部"},{"start":101.863,"end":121.273,"text":"有些是絕對 有些是相對南部這方面的loading會比較少的就是因為雙北的高樓大廈跟江湘的熱油風險係數比較高這一塊對你們來說有在思考這些的加級要更多嗎"},{"start":122.713,"end":146.723,"text":"針對景蕭的部分從以前到現在一直有所謂的景情加級 繁重加值沒有 我是說這個雙北啦你說所有的公布另外沒有啦 就是景蕭啦景蕭有啊 本來就是六都的部分都有一套很嚴謹的制度不是六都啦 就是雙北啦我們是用六都來算因為我們有台北市的想要調回去台南市嘛"},{"start":148.477,"end":164.028,"text":"他如果都不走,他就死去找人家找什麼他自己也知道他分手不夠,就很多警校他覺得他自己年輕警校他也知道他分數不夠嘛總是父母啊,都會想說,我剛好回來故鄉啦我剛好在台北,沒人照顧啦,理由一大堆啦"},{"start":168.183,"end":193.833,"text":"他就是因為雙北業務比較繁重我說請這個人事總署思考一下像這種東西怎麼留住人在雙北這第一個第二個我們很多公務員剛考上的時候可能各單位任用公務員大學畢業考公務員最想都要想要到中央機關因為他到中央機關以後叫長官"},{"start":194.878,"end":214.31,"text":"到去縣市政府 到去公所的時候好 都大到不妙的 都坐頂館可以的 可能是他們學長 也是可以的就對了 好那這一些公所的啊我現在就問公所啦 公所的公務人員啊你知道公所的公務人員流動率高還是低啊其實流動率不高 因為他要找頭腦派出好 那公所有沒有哪一類的公務員"},{"start":223.843,"end":226.386,"text":"差不多做一兩年他就想要快點賺啊那這些人有沒有考慮再給他加點薪水讓他心無旁騖啊"},{"start":241.343,"end":263.032,"text":"加薪的部分我們是用整體的角度除非它是在偏遠地區 很偏的我們有另外給它來要的那個加級不然一般土木的就是土木的那你們那個加級表不是可以動嗎有啦 最近我們有在討論其實 利用這個機會 委員報告就是說針對土木工程因為外面的營建的薪水比較高"},{"start":272.314,"end":298.764,"text":"官媒做啦我們有做一些努力就是政治專業家籍還有他的留任獎金你如果做一年第二年你給他三萬你如果做三年第四年一年給他五萬我們都有做 還有他的獎金扭起來那是我們定義的同歸那他有技師建築師資格的這個有家籍嗎沒獎就分明沒有我建議要啦"},{"start":299.604,"end":325.958,"text":"因為喔 蠻多六都的都發局啊負責建造、省造這些單位啊他一些人都有建築師資格那他每天就在那邊發那些照嘛其實他去外面當建築師更好賺他就是想要有公務員資格那你把他好好留住啊他有這一些專門職業技術人員證照考慮一下考慮一下喔 要把他們留下來看這個加級表可以調整一下沒有啦"},{"start":326.806,"end":337.177,"text":"好啦 你們回去研究啦 不跟你講第二個 最近怎麼會有那什麼公立醫院的醫師啊什麼加班一年薪水九百幾塊那是怎麼回事啊我覺得他的呈現的方式大概應該是一般的樣子啦"},{"start":348.038,"end":374.942,"text":"地方會特經辦員的都不可能在蘇聯的台南機密的沒有 我是說公立的公家的特經辦員的看他的基金他有一套內部的一個機制所以就會有很多的雖然都是公家機關每一個醫院的值班費應該是不可能的他就弄到弄到這個醫師他就年輕他也不可以值班以前醫界很簡單嘛年輕要值班嘛"},{"start":375.866,"end":400.016,"text":"值班可以賺多一點嘛現在那個值班 什麼一小時九百幾塊他就說這樣我貴了我也不值班啊 那就會造成可能急診啊各式各樣的這個醫師人力不足嘛那我有看你們的報告也寫說你們要對這些公立醫療機構的這些人的專業家籍的數額要調整嘛這個是做法是什麼"},{"start":404.881,"end":432.614,"text":"我們今年其實已經多了因為這個部分坦白講我們現在有各類型的人物各類型的扮演的角色你想說在公家機關的這些公職的醫師還有護士護士他的業定費也從差不多一兩百塊到一千五百六我們也都會逐漸的去看看整個人力供需的需求"},{"start":433.474,"end":447.892,"text":"會去調整好 我是建議這樣因為你們很有可能有人反映你們就去檢討你想我剛才問你的土木的建築師土木技師你就可以去檢討嘛檢討之後說這個立委在問 要不要調整一下另外一個立委來說我看那個也要調 你們就去想"},{"start":453.393,"end":469.064,"text":"我覺得這樣啦 就是按照公需啦就是說 奇怪 這個類科啊現在報考人數怎麼真的越來越少然後呢 有一些奇怪 都大量要調動就幾位都會想要照 幾位都會想要照可能年輕人他來做幾年 他發現說可以照 趕快來照就是要申請調動那他要申請調動的時候呢用人機關發了函來給這個原來的機關嘛我們現在有一個規定說你要不要趕快告訴人家"},{"start":484.018,"end":502.97,"text":"從這裡的跡象應該可以顯示哪一些類科需要在這些東西上做調整那這個我覺得人事單位你們要有一個監測的計畫就是監看 看這個東西到底是注意數字的變化然後趕快來做因應"},{"start":504.023,"end":521.308,"text":"其實我委員報告其實我們做兩件事第一件就是每一年我們會去看每一個直系的流動力的問題然後我們大概會五年會重新再做深入的一個分析你想說土木那就是我們這幾年分析出來"},{"start":522.068,"end":540.842,"text":"中央跟地方尤其是鄉鎮公所的土木的那個政治風險太高所以他差不多兩三天他就要走要走之後 他走一段是去民間 公家機關到花園裡面最少有三分之一到一半 又停課"},{"start":542.096,"end":566.755,"text":"定課分化來中央因為中央比較安全中央比較安全地方風險比較高我們都有做這樣的一個分析所以我們從那個分析裡面我們會去做一些待遇的調整或者其他的配套甚至我們也跟考試院考選部去溝通你像今年各課土木的入期率差不多要50%"},{"start":568.669,"end":586.784,"text":"以前不太管因為欠了很多所以我們要去合調入企率一定要拉高不然這個人力切口一直越來越大其實我們都是長期性的有些是每年有些是兩三年有些是五年會做一個不同層級的分析那這些離職了 調動了你們有再去跟他們座談 問卷了解說因為什麼要照"},{"start":598.788,"end":600.75,"text":"土木的我們會拜託那個公共工程委員會"},{"start":616.066,"end":637.651,"text":"原來他待了那個機關的他的直接的主管問卷也許可以從那裡開始啦比如說一方面他可能講說這原來這個要離開這個人他個人的問題可能是一個原因那第二種可能就是說對這個位置人常常要離開原因是什麼就是說這一些了解完之後也許你們比較好做決定"},{"start":638.635,"end":655.721,"text":"委員報告啦 其實那個離子我都有請他做一個離子問卷啦但是有的 不好意思 都要說家庭因素啦大家家庭因素 都要等於孝順父母啊他是沒有寫到那裡有啦 是都寫家庭因素有啦 問卷我都有 除了他本人啦"},{"start":656.331,"end":661.194,"text":"他直接上去的那個長官啦 最清楚嘛 要不然他是科員你就問他的股長 問他的科長 大家要知道狀況啦因為如果你不記名的話 這些人會願意寫說對啦 我這位差不多兩年就換了 都會換人啊 他們大家找的理由 我跟你們中央講 答案是這樣啊所以你們要注意啊 你去問那個個人 他當然給你的理由 一段時間他就要找他七十年"},{"start":679.904,"end":689.809,"text":"可是他的長官因為怕下面沒有人所以他一定會寫實話這一塊你們再加強一下讓你們後面比較好做決策好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時）我如果全程國語可以多兩分鐘？"],["主席：沒有，你如果英文多三分鐘。"],["王委員義川：謝謝主席。請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["王委員義川：人事長早。最近我看到臺北市議員提出，首都的公務員要有加給，你有看過這則新聞嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個問題，其實內部也討論好幾年了，這有一點類似財劃法，那個定義還有範圍，每一個人都……"],["王委員義川：你知不知道它的概念？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是看「首都」是臺北市，還是雙北都算；如果只有臺北市算進來，新北的沒有算進來，大家一定跳腳。"],["王委員義川：我請問一下，有哪幾類的公務員都想要逃離雙北、想要調到別的地方？你有沒有概念？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：雙北？"],["王委員義川：在雙北做什麼工作的公務人員，他很想要調去中南部，如果調不走的都會找民意代表，問可不可以把他調回去中南部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你說的有可能是警消吧？"],["王委員義川：對，就是警消。那他為什麼要去中南部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為他的工作比較重，南部相對……有些是絕對、有些是相對，南部這方面的loading會比較少，因為雙北的高樓大廈還有工廠，風險係數比較高。"],["王委員義川：這一塊對你們來說，有在思考這些人的加給要更多嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：針對警消的部分，從以前到現在一直有所謂的警勤加給、繁重加成。"],["王委員義川：沒有，我是說雙北。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你說所有的公務人員？"],["王委員義川：沒有，就是警消。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：警消有啊！本來六都的部分，就有一套很嚴謹的制度。"],["王委員義川：不是六都，就是雙北。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是用六都下去算。"],["王委員義川：因為有臺北市的想要調回去臺南市，他如果走不了，他就四處找人幫忙，他自己也知道他分數不夠，很多年輕警消自己也知道他分數不夠，縱使父母都會想說看有沒有辦法讓他回來故鄉，住在臺北沒人照顧，理由一大堆，他就是因為在雙北業務比較繁重，我說請人事總處思考一下，像這種東西怎麼留住人在雙北，這是第一個。","第二個，很多公務員剛考上的時候，各單位任用，而大學畢業考公務員最想要到中央機關，因為他到中央機關以後叫長官，去縣市政府、公所的時候，都大到不可及，都坐在上面，底下坐的可能是他的學長，也變成在他之下。這一些公所的，我現在就問公所的公務人員，你知道公所的公務人員流動率高還是低？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實流動率不高，因為那邊要找工作難找。"],["王委員義川：公所有沒有哪一類的公務員，差不多做一、兩年他就想要趕快走？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就營建土木方面的，那些風險很高，所以大家都腳底抹油就跑了。"],["王委員義川：那這些人有沒有考慮再給他們加點薪水，讓他們心無旁騖？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：加薪的部分，我們是用整體的角度，除非他是在偏遠地區，很偏的有另外給他加給。不然一般土木就是土木，有固定的行情。"],["王委員義川：你們那個加給表不是可以動嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，最近有在討論，其實利用機會跟委員報告，針對土木工程，因為外面營建的……"],["王委員義川：薪水比較高？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：高很多。我們有做一些努力，就是增支專業加給，還有他的留任獎金。如果做一年，第二年之後多領3萬；如果做三年，第四年之後一年多領5萬。我們都有做，還有他的獎金有拉起來，那是去年就通過。"],["王委員義川：他有技師、建築師資格的，有加給嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前這方面沒有。"],["王委員義川：我建議要啦！因為滿多六都的都發局，負責建照審照這些單位，那些人都有建築師資格，他每天就在那邊發照，其實他去外面當建築師更好賺，他就是想要有公務員資格，你把他好好留住，他有這一些專門職業技術人員證照的，考慮一下把他們留著，看加給表可以調整一下嗎？你們回去研究，不勉強你。","第二個，最近怎麼會傳出公立醫院的醫師，加班一小時九百多塊，是怎麼回事？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得它呈現的方式……應該是值班費的樣子……"],["王委員義川：對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：值班費每間醫院都不一樣，如果私人的臺南奇美……"],["王委員義川：沒有，我是說公立的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公立的要看每家醫院的基金，它有一套內部的機制。"],["王委員義川：所以就會有很多的醫師……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：雖然都是公家機關，每家醫院的值班費應該是不一樣的。"],["王委員義川：就弄到醫師，年輕人也不要值班，以前醫界很簡單，年輕人值班，值班可以賺比較多，現在值班一小時九百多塊，他就說乾脆不要，他不值班了。這可能就會造成急診、各式各樣的醫師人力不足，我有看你們的報告寫說，你們要對公立醫療機構的這些人專業加給的數額要調整，這個作法是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們今年其實是已經有幫他們調整，這個部分坦白講，現在有各類型的人物、各類型扮演的角色，你想在公家機關的這些公職的醫師還有護士，護士的夜點費也差不多一、兩百塊到1,560，我們也都會逐漸去看看整個人力供需的需求，會去調增。"],["王委員義川：我是建議，因為你們很有可能，有人反映你們就去檢討，像我剛才問你土木的建築師、土木技師，你就會去檢討！因為有立委在問，你們檢討之後幫他調一下，改天再換另外一位立委，他看那個也要調，你們就再去想。我覺得是按照供需，假如某類科現在報考人數怎麼真的越來越少，然後有一些很奇怪大量的調動，坐這個位子的人都會想要走，可能年輕人做幾年發現可以走就趕快走，就申請調動，他要申請調動的時候，用人機關發函給原來的機關，我們現在有一個規定是，你要不要趕快告訴人家，從這裡的跡象應該可以顯示哪一些類科、需要在這些東西上做調整？我覺得人事單位，你們要有一個監測的計畫，注意數字的變化，趕快來做因應。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，其實我們做兩件事情，第一件，每一年我們會去看每一個職系流動率的問題，大概五年會重新再做深入的分析，像土木就是這幾年分析出來，中央跟地方，尤其在鄉鎮公所做土木的，政治風險太高，所以他差不多兩、三年就要走，他之後去哪裡？是去民間還是公家機關？我們發現裡面最少有三分之一到一半的人又重考，重新分發到中央，因為中央比較安全，地方風險比較高，我們都有做這樣的分析，所以從分析裡面我們會去做一些待遇的調整，或者其他的配套。"],["王委員義川：OK。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：甚至我們也跟考試院、考選部溝通，像今年高考，土木的錄取率差不多快50%，以前沒有那麼高，因為缺很多，所以我們要去調整，錄取率一定要拉高，不然這個人力缺口一直越來越大，其實我們都是長期性，有些是每年、有些是兩三年、有些是五年會做不同層級的分析。"],["王委員義川：那這些離職、調動的人，你們有再去跟他們座談、問卷，來了解說他們為什麼要走嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：土木的部分，我們有……"],["王委員義川：不是，我是說整體啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：整體的話，我們是沒有。流動率比較高的，像土木的，我們會拜託公共工程委員會，替我們去跟他們……"],["王委員義川：因為時間的關係，我的建議是第一個，原來他待的機關、他直接的主管，問卷也許可以從那裡開始，譬如說，一方面他可能講說，原來要離開的這個人，他個人的問題，這可能是一個原因；第二種可能是說，這個位置的人常常要離開，原因是什麼？這一些了解完之後，也許你們比較好做決定。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，其實要離職的人，我們都有請他做一個離職問卷，但是有的人不好意思，都說家庭因素。"],["王委員義川：大家都是家庭因素、都要回去孝順父母啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他是沒有寫得那麼細啦！都寫家庭因素。有啦！問卷我們都有做……"],["王委員義川：沒有，就是除了他本人，他直接上去的那一個長官，他最清楚嘛！譬如說他是科員，你就問他的股長、問他的科長，大概就知道狀況。如果你不記名的話，這些人會願意寫說：這個位置差不多2年就會換人了，他們大概走的理由，我跟你們中央講答案是怎麼樣，所以你們要注意。","你去問要離開的那個人，他問卷就會亂勾，因為他就要走了，他不會理你的，對不對？可是他的長官因為怕下面沒有人，所以他一定會寫實話啦！這一塊你們再加強一下，讓你們後面比較好做決策啦！謝謝你。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員的質詢。","我都為了大家的安全、身體健康，我都把你們控制在85分貝以下，超過85分貝會影響耳朵。其實今天你看我們二氧化碳是1,643，這也不對，超過1,000的話，頭會痛、會想嘔吐。溫度又好像太低，1,643就超過1,000的6成喔！委員會在這個地方也要特別注意一下，可能每一個委員會都沒有注意這個，所以我在主持，你看大家都很平和，因為我很怕超過85分貝。","接下來請羅智強委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da517953f59a74e67ddd14a9ab9b55a87a24a3c61875d63c7135c0e5c612942c44225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:57:29 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10:09:32","影片長度":"00:12:03","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:57:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T10:09:32+08:00","duration":723,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2.84909375,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.14409375,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.004093750000003,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.86221875,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.81784375,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.59409375,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.16784375,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":43.80471875,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.12534375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.80846875,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.377843750000004,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.23409375,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.28471875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":57.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":54.40221875,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.41909375,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.384718750000005,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.83971875,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.91409375,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.04909375,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.98534375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.44409375000001,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.83096875000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.56034375,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.70346875,"end":98.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.63971875,"end":109.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.06971875,"end":105.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.41909375,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.43971875000001,"end":119.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.48909375000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.03721875000001,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.53471875000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.77471875,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":127.80846875,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.29784375,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.60534375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.95971875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.40596875,"end":138.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.12721875,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":141.67971875,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":153.66096875000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.95596875,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.88409375,"end":159.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.12846875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.24971875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":171.97034375,"end":177.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.42096875000001,"end":180.50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我們請彭部長來 再請彭部長邱委員好 部長好我們先看一下影片好了因為現在廚餘沒有去處"},{"start":26.929,"end":45.743,"text":"所以我們有一個要求就拜託現在大家要把食物全部吃完不要有廚餘啦如果吃完就不會有廚餘就不會有廚餘去化的問題沒有廚餘去化的問題我們就能夠不要讓豬隻吃到很多的廚餘所以我們藉這個機會也要拜託拜託大家要把食物吃完不要有廚餘"},{"start":47.184,"end":75.892,"text":"這樣就不會有廚餘去化的問題我請教部長你吃香蕉的時候會把香蕉皮吃掉嗎你個人吃飯吃得再怎麼乾淨你在做飯的時候必然是會有委員這個其實減少食物的浪費齁這個是一個愛護環境的方式啦我沒有說減少食物不對啦這個浪費不對只是說他叫這個院長叫大家把這個食物都吃完喔不是很奇怪嗎你吃香蕉會不會把皮吃掉"},{"start":76.872,"end":91.54,"text":"院長意思是說我們每天餐上桌上的食物要吃乾淨那就不會有多的廚餘那也跟委員報告因為我們國人的廚藝蠻多的所以這句話的意思是什麼是要我們用人民用這個未來防疫是不是"},{"start":92.34,"end":118.958,"text":"絕對不是啦是因為我們我們把香蕉皮吃掉就可以把非洲豬瘟擋掉嗎不可能香蕉皮吃掉的啦委員那個香蕉皮這個不是我們可以吃的宣傳不要浪費食物我覺得這沒有問題但是不要拿來當防範非洲豬瘟的解方不是解方就是說減少這段時間內因為廚餘的確是比較多我們回歸正題啦就是說這是非洲豬瘟的問題你們研判病毒應該是境外傳入對吧"},{"start":119.877,"end":132.926,"text":"我不是這個專業喔 那誰可以回答現在還沒人可以回答嗎難道是本土嗎誰可以回答 請陳部長"},{"start":140.171,"end":154.507,"text":"我跟委員說明我們現在針對現在目前的案場就是在台中武器這個案場那現在正在進行疫調中那疫調完成以後我們大概就比較能夠了解這個來源到底是從哪裡來的是從境外嗎"},{"start":156.007,"end":180.102,"text":"我們過往我們台灣都沒有一定是從境外所以就是說你們也間接承認這是食安五環的第一環這個邊境管理就已經失守了我們從來沒有間接承認食安五環第一環就失守你是從這個境外的話食安五環第一環不就是境外嗎境外防範的部分"},{"start":180.962,"end":197.359,"text":"我們所有的防範作為對嘛 那就是第一環出的問題嘛 這樣講對吧我不能這樣講 因為四安五環本身它的境外邊際管制你現在就是說本土沒有嘛 那就是一定從外面來嘛那從外面來就是境外管制出問題 這樣對嗎"},{"start":199.02,"end":211.59,"text":"邊境管制邊境管制嘛 對不對那我們這個陳時中政委不是說知道有小偷卻不抓結果你們在邊境那一環你們把小偷放進來的"},{"start":214.158,"end":227.347,"text":"對不對 不能用這樣的比喻所以是陳時中比喻不對啦我們的政委他比喻不對嘛他的比喻是另外一件事情我說您剛才講的就是說食安五環的第一環裡面邊境把關就是把如果邊境發現的時候就攔下來會有後面的問題嗎"},{"start":230.009,"end":256.011,"text":"我想你也非常清楚喔所有的邊境管制不可能百分之百但是我們會出了問題你們出了問題不能夠說大家在那邊看笑話就笑說我們台中市政府明知道有小偷不抓那我們要說那這個小偷是誰放進來的我跟你講喔整個疫調的過程是非常非常專業的一個疫調在這個情況之下我們希望在防疫的過程中我們就專注防疫"},{"start":257.042,"end":264.008,"text":"好啦 你剛剛講說是這是從這個邊境管制這個控制沒有控制好就好了我沒有這樣講 我只是說這個東西從邊境你請回 我們請彭部長"},{"start":268.288,"end":294.056,"text":"部長 你在報告裡面寫著現在用廚餘養豬的場 總共是435場嘛那近一年來養豬戶配合上船的這個情形其中只有358家上船率有90%那50家上船率60%至90%上船率小於60%的有27家所以沒有一家是達到100%上船的對吧有 有 大概150幾家是可以有到100%"},{"start":295.424,"end":307.851,"text":"有100%嗎有有有在我的早上的簡報裡面有有改了是不是有有有那個是90以上對呀90以上就含100就對了151家對含100就對了對對對好那我想請問一下你們這這個435家這個養豬場裡面有曾經因為沒有上傳畫面而開發的嗎"},{"start":318.551,"end":342.891,"text":"呃 他們基本上重點是在集合因為他如果沒有百分之百上傳 隔月就要去集合要求他們改善 就一直要他們改善對 然後啊 但是你沒有罰則啊呃 有 廢清法廢清法怎麼罰 廢清法有罰則 怎麼罰呃 一般的話是一千二到六千如果是他用事業的話是 呃 六千到三百萬那 這個沒有上傳真主畫面就等於沒有依照規定真主"},{"start":345.172,"end":362.724,"text":"所以他要加強稽查所以他下個月一定要去看要求他輔導改進對 他改進之後 他如果沒改呢你怎麼知道他有沒有改他一定要再上傳他再上傳 只要他有上傳就沒事有上傳 然後我們去集合他是不是按照照實的去上傳"},{"start":363.624,"end":391.638,"text":"對 它上傳這個畫面就能證明它有珍珠嗎基本上我們那個系統裡面可以看得到它的照片拍攝的日期然後它每天的樣態所以我們有人去分析然後如果有一些異常所以我們每個月都會發函給各縣市環保局那沒有上傳它還是沒有沒有上傳它還是沒有罰則對不對沒有上傳就會增加它的稽查的頻率因為各位委員你也知道養豬場它是很害怕人家進去看的所以增強它的稽查頻率所以我們的稽查頻率是非常多的"},{"start":392.877,"end":414.697,"text":"所以他們後來 你現在意思是說台中市政府沒有去做稽查嗎報告委員因為那個是禮拜天的時候工作會議的時候我們同仁有特別提出來因為我們在疫調的時候可能有一些速度的地方所以我們同仁有提出來這樣的情境他的確在這個從五月開始就有顯著的這個異常然後我們有提醒他們但是他們只有去了兩次"},{"start":416.277,"end":428.458,"text":"只去了兩次那我請問一下這435家養豬場就是說有那麼多沒有上傳按時間上傳的那到底罰了幾家請我們副署長說有開罰的"},{"start":430.848,"end":454.615,"text":"跟委員報告 基本上上船是讓我們來根據上船的情況來調整我們的稽查的頻率如果他不上 我覺得很奇怪的一件事情既然有罰則 為什麼為什麼那個不直接重複他沒上船就開罰呢沒上船之後我們去稽查為什麼要再多一個動作稽查發現他為什麼嘛為什麼你跟我講為什麼要再多一個動作"},{"start":462.872,"end":482.188,"text":"沒有上傳你為什麼不直接就開罰不然你同意嗎我們來立法可以嗎包委員因為這個國人齁其實對於雖然我是我不吃豬肉我吃蔬食可是豬是國人的需求養豬農他們其實也很辛苦所以基本上這套制度呢不在於要罰多少而是說它有這個集合的動作"},{"start":482.768,"end":496.707,"text":"法律本來也很重啊對不對只是說我只是要講的是說他沒有上傳因為你沒有強制嘛你沒有強制的話就造成這個業者他就會忘記啊今天如果要有罰則的話他就不會忘記嘛"},{"start":497.626,"end":525.566,"text":"保委員這個對於養豬業者壓力會很大所以基本上我們是希望他們一起來配合為什麼壓力會大呢其實委員九成的業者都上傳率大概九成以上每天的上傳率九成以上是沒有這個問題的對啊 那他們就不會有壓力那其他人為什麼會有壓力所以我們環境部就是等於讓你這個法律這個解釋當中有空間讓這個養豬戶他覺得說他們有空間可以去做調整那為什麼不一次把它"},{"start":526.306,"end":551.721,"text":"到位 這樣子讓我們所有執法的人也很好執法不會到現在推來推去的沒有推來推去 因為其他家 其他例如說被我們列為警示的有邀請各地方政府能夠去稽查的他們其實大多數都有按照這個方式去做稽核 也都有改善所以這個制度是沒有問題的我這樣講啦 如果說把這個沒有上傳這個部分來做一個修法你覺得同意嗎"},{"start":552.641,"end":577.399,"text":"委員這個其實養豬其實我相信經過這個疫情都是一個非常挑戰的工作如果委員有這樣的意願的話我們也遵照大院的建議但是現在環境部的意思就是說以後這個廚餘我們可能不再沒有沒有沒有委員因為我們現在看到這樣其實這個制度或許有可以改進的地方所以我們如果未來要持續進行的話我們會用即時監控即時監控用連線的方式來進行"},{"start":578.32,"end":603.216,"text":"所以你們還是廚餘未來還是會使用就對了沒有沒有因為這個到底要用還是不要用這個不是我這剛剛那個陳季季部長有特別說的很清楚我們會再來進行這個評估來處理你的態度呢基本上廚餘有廚餘的這個價值啦如果說我知道他們有他的價值他可以養那個黑水芒嘛對不對對對對你會大力的來提這個鼓勵這個業者來做這個嗎這個是循環經濟的表現我們會鼓勵好"},{"start":608.279,"end":634.364,"text":"台灣一年生產77萬噸的廚藥其中六成二拿去餵豬三成拿去做堆肥換句話說上一次討論就是要禁止廚藥養豬到現在七年過去了養豬戶依然是廚藥去化的最大戶所以我想雲林那時候七年前雲林就禁止這個廚藥養豬當時我們賴清德院長還親自反對說去化能量不足禁止太會會造成廚藥危機"},{"start":635.484,"end":664.173,"text":"那我們現在看到的狀況就是你政府一進台中市政府他的台中市那麼大的這個量能他也沒辦法去處理嘛所以他也只能做掩埋對不對所以他現在也只能做掩埋你說那些場地你在臨時你要找到一個合法的場地本來就有困難啊你連不要講中央單位都有困難啊何況是地方政府對不對像這個時候我們已經搞了7年了那用燒的也燒不完啊那我想說未來我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":666.272,"end":689.453,"text":"未來的話我們還是希望從這個更有效的一個利用方式來進行那至於說能不能這個廚藝作為飼料這個是未來可能可以再討論的問題對啦 因為七年了啦 去化能量不足我們也不能禁止 禁用廚藝七年後一樣去化能量不足所以我們 我這樣看是不是等這事情過了之後然後又傳過水無痕 又忘了"},{"start":690.113,"end":717.428,"text":"呃 剛剛那個陳部長我農業部也特別提到說他們會強化輔導的方式因為7年前我發現我發現我們現在的我們現在的耐心的政府啊因為狀況一個接一個很快這個下一個狀況又會把今天的事情蓋掉我希望這件事情能夠部長在你任內齁在最近能夠呃 統一一個說法然後一個很好的解決辦法可以嗎呃 這個我們正在努力當中我們先把這個疫情趕快能夠告一段好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":720.816,"end":721.037,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時57分）主席好。我們請彭部長。"],["主席：再請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我們先看一下影片好了。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，院長這樣說：拜託大家要把食物吃完，不要有廚餘，這樣就不會有廚餘去化的問題。我請教部長，你吃香蕉的時候，會把香蕉皮吃掉嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實減少食物的浪費，這是一個愛護環境的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我沒有說減少食物的浪費不對，只是院長叫大家把食物都吃完，不是很奇怪嗎？你吃香蕉會不會把皮吃掉？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。院長的意思是我們每天餐桌上的食物要吃乾淨，那就不會有多的廚餘，也跟委員報告，因為我們國人的廚餘是滿多的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對阿！讓你們工作輕鬆一點嘛……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這句話意思是什麼？是要人民用胃來防疫，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：絕對不是啦，因為我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們把香蕉皮吃掉就可以把非洲豬瘟擋掉嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不可能香蕉皮吃掉的啦！委員，香蕉皮不是我們可以吃的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！宣傳不要浪費食物，我覺得這沒有問題。"],["彭部長啓明：對，他的意思是不要浪費食物……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是不要拿來當防範非洲豬瘟的解方啦。"],["彭部長啓明：不是解方，就是減少這段時間內，因為廚餘的確是比較多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我們回歸正題。這次非洲豬瘟的問題，你們研判病毒應該是境外傳入，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我不是這個專業……"],["邱委員鎮軍：誰可以回答？現在還沒人可以回答嗎？難道是本土嗎？誰可以回答？"],["主席：請陳部長，好不好？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。我跟委員說明，目前的案場就是在臺中梧棲這個案場，現在正在進行疫調中，疫調完成以後，我們大概就比較能夠了解這個來源到底是從哪裡來的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是從境外嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：過往我們臺灣都沒有，一定是從境外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，所以就是你們也間接承認食安五環的第一環的邊境管理就已經失守了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們從來沒有間接承認食安五環第一環就失守。"],["邱委員鎮軍：從境外的話，食安五環第一環不就是境外管制嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：境外防範的部分，我們所有的防範作為總是有百密一疏的地方……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！那就是第一環出了問題，這樣講對吧？不然怎麼進來的？"],["陳部長駿季：我不能這樣講，因為食安五環本身的境外邊境管制，從……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在說本土沒有，那就是一定從外面來，如果是從外面來，就是境外管制出問題，這樣對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：邊境管制。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，邊境管制。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對不對？陳時中政委他不是說「知道有小偷卻不抓」嗎？結果你們在邊境那一環，你們把小偷放進來的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：不能用這樣的比喻，我覺得這不恰當。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是陳時中比喻不對？我們的政委比喻不對嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：他的比喻是另外一件事情。您剛才講的，食安五環第一環裡的邊境把關是把小偷放進來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果能在邊境時就發現並攔下來，會有後面的問題嗎？當然沒有嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我想您也非常清楚……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能說，我覺得……"],["陳部長駿季：所有的邊境管制不可能百分之百，但是我們會達到最清楚的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們出了問題，不能夠說大家在那邊看笑話，就笑說：臺中市政府明知道有小偷不抓！但我們要問：那這小偷是誰放進來的，對不對？所以……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員講，整個疫調過程是非常非常專業的。在這個情況之下，我們希望在防疫的過程中，就專注防疫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！你剛剛講是在邊境管制沒有控制好就好了……"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這樣講，我是說這東西……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要講了，你請回。請彭部長。","部長，你在報告裡有寫，現在用廚餘養豬的養豬場總共是435場嘛！近一年來，養豬戶配合上傳的其中有358家的上傳率有90%，有50家上傳率是60%至90%，上傳率小於60%有27家，所以沒有一家是達到100%上傳的，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有，大概一百五十幾家是有達到100%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有100%的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，在我早上的簡報裡有提到……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有改了，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：是含在90%以上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：90%以上是含100%就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對，有151家。"],["邱委員鎮軍：含100%就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我想請問一下，你們在這435家養豬場裡，有曾經因為沒有上傳畫面而開罰的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，他們重點是在稽核，因為他如果沒有100%上傳，隔月就會去稽核並要求他們改善，就一直要他們改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，但是你們也沒有罰則啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有，廢清法有罰則。"],["邱委員鎮軍：廢清法怎麼罰？"],["彭部長啓明：一般是1,200元到6,000元，如果他用事業的話，是6,000元到300萬元。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有上傳蒸煮畫面就等於沒有依照規定蒸煮，這些沒有依照規定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：他要加強稽查，所以下個月一定要去看，要求他輔導改進。"],["邱委員鎮軍：要求他改進之後，如果他沒改呢？你怎麼知道他有沒有改？"],["彭部長啓明：他一定要再上傳。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他再上傳，只要他有上傳就沒事？"],["彭部長啓明：上傳之後，我們再去稽核他是不是有按規定照實的上傳。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他上傳的這些畫面，就能證明他有蒸煮嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，我們那套系統裡可以看得到照片拍攝的日期及每天的樣態，我們有人會去分析，如果有一些異常，我們每個月都會發函給各縣市環保局。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有上傳還是沒有罰則，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有上傳就會增加他的稽查頻率，因為委員也知道養豬場是很害怕人家進去看的。這會增加他的稽查頻率，所以我們稽查頻率是非常多的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在意思是臺中市政府沒有去做稽查嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是在禮拜天工作會議的時候，我們同仁有特別提出來，因為我們在疫調的時候，可能有一些疏忽的地方，所以我們同仁有提出來這樣的情境，他的確從5月開始就有顯著的異常，我們也有提醒他們，但是他們只有去了兩次。"],["邱委員鎮軍：只去了兩次而已？"],["彭部長啓明：只去了兩次。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問一下這435家養豬場有那麼多沒有按時間上傳的，到底罰了幾家？"],["彭部長啓明：我請副署長說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有開罰的。"],["林副署長左祥：跟委員報告，基本上，上傳是讓我們來根據上傳的情況作為我們調整稽查的頻率，如果他不上傳……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得很奇怪的一件事情啦！既然有罰則，為什麼不直接在他沒上傳時就開罰呢？"],["林副署長左祥：沒上傳之後，我們會去稽查，如果稽查……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼要再多一個動作？"],["林副署長左祥：稽查發現他沒有告知清楚……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼？你跟我講，為什麼要再多一個動作？"],["林副署長左祥：沒有上傳……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們為什麼不直接就開罰？部長，你同意嗎？我們來立法可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，國人其實對於……雖然我是不吃豬肉，我吃蔬食，可是豬肉是國人的需求，養豬農他們其實也很辛苦，所以基本上，這套制度不在於要罰多少，而是透過這稽核的動作，讓他們可以改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這罰的也沒有很重啊！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要講的只是他沒有上傳，因為你們沒有強制嘛！沒有強制的話，造成這個業者就會忘記。今天如果可以有罰則的話，他就不會忘記嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這對於養豬業者壓力很大……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：所以基本上我們是希望他們一起來配合……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼壓力會大呢？上傳很困難嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實有9成業者每天上傳率都大概9成以上，是沒有這個問題的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：所以某些的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們都不會有壓力，其他的為什麼會有壓力？"],["彭部長啓明：某些個案必須……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們環境部就是等於讓……這法律條文解釋當中讓養豬戶覺得他們有空間可以做調整，為什麼不一次把它到位，可讓我們所有執法的人員很好執法？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不會到現在還推來推去吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有推來推去。其他家例如被我們列為警示的，有請各地方政府能夠去稽查的，他們其實大多數都有按照這個方式去稽核也都有改善，所以這個制度是沒有問題的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我這樣講啦！如果針對沒有上傳的這部分來做修法，你同意嗎？你的立場呢？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我相信養豬經過這次疫情會是一個非常有挑戰的工作，如果委員有這樣的意願的話，我們也會遵照大院的建議，但是其實這會引發很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在環境部的意思是，以後廚餘可能不再……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。委員，因為我們現在看到這樣……其實這個制度或許有可以改進的地方，如果未來要持續進行的話，我們會用即時監控及連線的方式來進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們未來還是會使用廚餘就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：到底要用還是不用？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是我……剛剛陳駿季部長有特別說明得很清楚，我們會再來進行評估及處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你的態度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，廚餘有廚餘的價值啦！如果這個制度設計好的話……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道它有它的價值，它可以養黑水虻，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你會大力的鼓勵業者來做這個嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這是循環經濟的表現，我們會鼓勵。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。臺灣一年生產77萬噸的廚餘，其中6成2拿去餵豬，3成拿去做堆肥。換句話說，上一次討論就是要禁止廚餘養豬，到現在7年過去了，養豬戶依然是廚餘去化的最大戶。我想雲林在7年前就禁止廚餘養豬，但是時任賴清德院長還親自反對說去化能量不足，禁止太快會造成廚餘危機，我們現在看到的狀況就是政府一禁，對於臺中市那麼大的廚餘量，臺中市政府也沒辦法去處理，所以他現在也只能做掩埋，對不對？你說臨時要找一個合法的場地，本來就有困難啊！不要講……這連中央單位都有困難啊！何況是地方政府，對不對？像這個時候，我們已經搞了7年的，用燒的也燒不完啊！我們未來要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：未來的話，我們還是希望從更有效的利用方式來進行。至於能不能把廚餘作為飼料，這是未來可以再討論的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！因為7年了，去化能量不足，我們也不能禁用廚餘，7年後一樣去化能量不足，所以我這樣看，是不是等這件事情過了之後，船過水無痕又忘了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：剛剛農業部陳部長也特別提到，他們會強化輔導的方式，因為7年前有二千多家……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我發現現在的賴清德政府，因為狀況是一個接著一個，下一個狀況很快又會把這件事情蓋掉，我希望這件事情能夠……部長在你任內，能在最近有統一說法及很好的解決辦法，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們正在努力當中，先把這疫情趕快整個告一段落。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請王育敏委員做詢答。","委員會宣告：我們等蘇清泉委員詢答結束之後，休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51eba341af85ed6da214a9ab9b55a87a24a3c61875d63c7135cef9fcc7641977765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:39:03 - 09:57:22","影片長度":"00:18:19","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:39:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T09:57:22+08:00","duration":1099,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.755343750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.09346875,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.64159375,"end":65.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.50596875000001,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.73346875,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.85221875,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.15159375,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.73909375000001,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.13034375000001,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.87096875,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.08471875,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.66096875000002,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.12471875,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.55409375000002,"end":163.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.46096875,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.70096875000002,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.19784375,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.47034375,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.87034375000002,"end":192.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.32596875000002,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.65471875,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.52721875,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.05846875,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":249.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.21971875000003,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.81659375000004,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.16221875,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.28846875,"end":272.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.47409375,"end":270.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.34284375000004,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.91409375,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.02784375000005,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.63096875,"end":295.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.98471875,"end":345.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.34784375000004,"end":349.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.98034375000003,"end":372.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.08221875000004,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.76971875000004,"end":380.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.58346875,"end":380.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.32159375000003,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":382.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.14784375000005,"end":387.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.71721875000003,"end":389.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.16409375,"end":391.69971875000005},{"speak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有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉"},{"start":49.492,"end":66.799,"text":"這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署"},{"start":68.159,"end":88.167,"text":"發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個"},{"start":92.228,"end":119.514,"text":"因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來"},{"start":120.174,"end":134.874,"text":"包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶"},{"start":135.635,"end":153.124,"text":"你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點"},{"start":153.697,"end":173.895,"text":"好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大"},{"start":175.356,"end":199.108,"text":"12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了"},{"start":199.768,"end":218.84,"text":"那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等"},{"start":219.5,"end":241.201,"text":"全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您"},{"start":242.282,"end":263.704,"text":"這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎"},{"start":265.398,"end":291.539,"text":"因為我沒有在看電視 公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您 您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的"},{"start":292.119,"end":315.33,"text":"我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能"},{"start":315.99,"end":337.877,"text":"只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的"},{"start":348.639,"end":372.507,"text":"這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的"},{"start":374.29,"end":400.558,"text":"你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛 的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能"},{"start":401.206,"end":418.476,"text":"好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的"},{"start":419.056,"end":431.953,"text":"都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的"},{"start":433.188,"end":448.623,"text":"我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯"},{"start":450.126,"end":477.43,"text":"這個才是重點啊 包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式"},{"start":477.87,"end":490.127,"text":"你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式"},{"start":491.141,"end":516.672,"text":"不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊"},{"start":517.697,"end":539.958,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後"},{"start":541.639,"end":570.069,"text":"經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是"},{"start":570.549,"end":578.806,"text":"我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎"},{"start":583.854,"end":605.948,"text":"如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎"},{"start":606.468,"end":631.141,"text":"我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售 可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好 那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對"},{"start":632.282,"end":657.781,"text":"廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好 那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%"},{"start":659.062,"end":682.032,"text":"現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是"},{"start":683.112,"end":701.085,"text":"台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合"},{"start":701.966,"end":731.028,"text":"我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水"},{"start":731.99,"end":737.264,"text":"帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標"},{"start":738.789,"end":761.694,"text":"包委員 你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都"},{"start":763.934,"end":781.706,"text":"不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長"},{"start":782.566,"end":787.769,"text":"你應該記得吧 你上了好多新聞你在過去112年 113年 114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下 當時呢 您還說台中市務實的作為 亮眼的表現優等獎"},{"start":799.955,"end":814.43,"text":"如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來"},{"start":823.159,"end":837.055,"text":"現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是"},{"start":837.936,"end":862.856,"text":"台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引 指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去"},{"start":863.496,"end":882.931,"text":"他就部分拿去燒 因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢 這些側翼又出來亂 又說什麼燒又不行 現在變成我不是側翼 我不是側翼 我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片 投影片"},{"start":883.271,"end":912.643,"text":"但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同"},{"start":913.303,"end":925.417,"text":"我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說"},{"start":932.265,"end":943.185,"text":"能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了"},{"start":944.295,"end":972.876,"text":"可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛"},{"start":973.756,"end":997.262,"text":"這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府"},{"start":997.802,"end":1009.535,"text":"當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了"},{"start":1011.765,"end":1027.853,"text":"這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋 掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範 不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範 我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去"},{"start":1029.073,"end":1051.803,"text":"那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量"},{"start":1052.643,"end":1070.328,"text":"超大量 所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府 地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了 好嗎 謝謝我自己澄清 我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講"},{"start":1077.209,"end":1094.537,"text":"我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時39分）謝謝主席，也謝謝委員、謝謝各位官員的出席。請環境部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。之前風災之後處理這些光電板的回收，「片片有序號」是環境部及經濟部做過的圖卡，而且全民都掛在嘴上，片片有序號，片片有身分證，但片片都找不回來。這個你應該記得，風災之後，以前的官員鄭明典就在他自己的社群發言說，廢棄的光電板真的太多了！如果沒有簡易、迅速、有效的作法，回收成本會真的太高，會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉。這個你應該也記得，你馬上用你的私人帳號到下面去回說，每一片都有序號，流向有追蹤，設置業者需要負責。這個右邊也是環境部的官方稿。","我給你看我今天早上收到的熱騰騰的公文，是經濟部能源署發給我們的，因為上次我問你時，你本來是8月要給我序號，後來你說9月底，結果10月還是拿不出來，現在快要11月了，是真的拿不出來。這是經濟部能源署的回文，我把重點劃給你看，他說，因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮，所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號，打臉一。第二個，因為本次丹娜絲風災造成大量損毀，所以多於第一時間清除回收，序號盤點實務上已不可行。環境部亦建議，天災情況下宜改採重量為基礎管控回收作業，以提高處理效率，打臉二。我想問你，我們現在的slogan是不是要改成「片片有序號，片片找不回來」？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，您同時跟兩個部會要這個答案，本部的部分我是要求我們還是要有序號，所以我要求再跟能源署協商，因為量實在太大，因為我們過去……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是它上面寫的是「環境部亦建議」耶！你的意思是說，其實你告訴能源署的是：我建議改以重量為基礎，但還是需要序號。它只是沒把它寫出來。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，因為您的索資我們必須要看，我昨天對這個回應覺得應該要再確認一點，所以我有請他們退回去，再確認清楚一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以這一份之後還會再改？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我希望。因為我認為片片都有序號是原來的原則，當然有些是毀壞的，它的序號是多少到多少，這是一定知道的嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以現在環境部跟能源署不同調。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，這個處理程序有差別。基本上因為這個量實在太大，有12.1萬片，有些好的，我相信他們如果要用，都知道這個序號，但有些的確是已經去化掉的，那個序號真的要花一點時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：好吧！那他的報告是寫「致無法盤點模組序號」，所以您跟他的看法是不同的。"],["彭部長啓明：無法盤點……"],["陳委員菁徽：您還會再跟能源署溝通？"],["彭部長啓明：我們還是會希望我們的同仁能找到這樣的數據，所以我已經要求他們再做處理了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我們看一下這個投影片，因為10月21日驗出非洲豬瘟，所以10月22日環境部和農業部一起宣布不要再用廚餘餵豬了。好，這是境外病毒進來，我們的豬農也在哭泣，其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉價格上漲等等，全部的人都是受害者，結果像之前在「大罷免、大成功」唱歌跳舞的電視節目主持人，每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山，你覺得這樣合理嗎？因為我們就是配合中央的政策，為了預防二次公衛危機，所以配合您，這些高油、高熱的熱廚餘、熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處，因為它就是很油或很鹹，用掩埋、堆肥或燒的，你覺得像這樣在第一線人員傷口上撒鹽，把它做成訕笑的節目合理嗎？這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我公務繁忙，沒有在看電視，所以我沒有看到這個訊息。第二個是……"],["陳委員菁徽：我現在告訴您了，您覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，本部在發生疫情的第二天就召集各縣市環保局，因為4年前曾經發生過一次，也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘，當時我們有一個指引，如果要進行掩埋的話，有一定的規範，每天要進行覆土。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂，等一下我會跟你討論這個指引，這個指引我也研究完了。","再來，您剛剛有提到量能，我跟你分析了一下，其實大部分廚餘每天2,115公噸，拿去做飼料化的是62.6%，所以我做了一點數學，你每天其實可以靠的非飼料化的量能不是你剛剛講的1,620公噸，因為你剛剛一再強調說，我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1,620噸，然後你們就拿2,115噸減掉1,620噸，得出一個很漂亮的結論，說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸，還樂觀地說妥善處理絕對沒有問題。","我要跟你細細討論的是，你說1,620噸，你把它加起來，傳統堆肥場、高效堆肥設備、再生能源廠、黑水虻等等，把它加起來，實際上我剛剛算的數學是七百九十多，你現在說你的量能是1,620，第一個問題是，你平常沒有這麼多的量能，現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你是說1,620不對嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：對、對。平常沒有做到1,620啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這是設施的量能，目前的設施量能必須是環境部發給許可的……"],["陳委員菁徽：去盤點嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：的確是有1,620。"],["陳委員菁徽：但它的確是很久沒有做了嘛！對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：什麼是很久沒有做？"],["陳委員菁徽：它很久沒有做這麼大的量能。"],["彭部長啓明：豬瘟不可能每天都發生嘛，所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我查了一些資料，為什麼這些人沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的熟廚餘？就是因為熟廚餘裡面有油、有鹽，其實可以做到能源化、肥料化還有其他的都是一些生廚餘，否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死發酵的菌種，導致堆肥失敗，或是高油脂會阻礙氧氣，導致厭氧腐敗等等的，我想問的是，如果現在有這麼大的量能，你可不可以列出來？你直接列出來，用口語化的方式告訴大家你說的1,620到底可以處理幾噸的剩菜、剩飯？就是熟廚餘，剩菜、剩飯。這才是重點啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，重點不是在這邊，你說的有一點可以修正，第一個，廚餘餵豬基本上是現在最低成本的做法，大多數是移到廚餘蒸煮來做處理，這個目前的量當然比較少啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，這不是最低成本的做法，我引述你們環管署一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話，這都出現在新聞上了，他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式。你承認吧？有一個官員說過這句話。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以不是最低成本？是你們環境部講出來的，說這是最好的……"],["彭部長啓明：這是一個資源循環的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：是最好的利用方式。"],["彭部長啓明：不用付錢啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：那我們現在要問的是，第一，平常1,620噸的這個量能沒有展開，你如何確定這些場可能並沒有做維修或是定期檢核，突然就可以開1,620？還有，開1,620很好啊！大家都覺得很好嘛！那1,620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛！就是剩菜、剩飯，到底1,620可以處理剩菜、剩飯的比例是多高？這是你要告訴大家的啊！"],["林副署長左祥：跟委員報告，我們這個廚餘的處理設施主要是廚餘進來之後，當然要培養它的菌，根據我們過去的經驗，像臺南市，它過去的高效堆肥設施是處理生廚餘，後來慢慢地把熟廚餘加進去，經過一段時間，它就穩定了，所以現在臺南市的高效堆肥設施處理的就是生廚餘加熟廚餘，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！那比例呢？"],["林副署長左祥：所以處理是沒有問題的。"],["陳委員菁徽：1,620全部可以處理熟廚餘嗎？它的比例是偏低的吧？"],["林副署長左祥：不是，這裡面已經有在處理生廚餘了，我們慢慢再把熟廚餘加進去之後，只要達到一個穩定的狀態，它就可以處理了，像新竹市，它現在的處理設施也是可以處理熟廚餘。"],["陳委員菁徽：OK，我都聽得懂，我只是要告訴你，我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚餘要處理，你這個1,620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚餘嘛！可以嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：如果一天進去當然是有問題，我們是慢慢進去，所以我們是可以逐步把它去化掉。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們知道一件事情了，1,620其實大部分沒有辦法處理剩菜、剩飯……"],["林副署長左祥：是可以的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員不要斷章取義喔！這個我們說得很清楚喔！"],["陳委員菁徽：我說「大部分」。"],["林副署長左祥：不是，都可以、都可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：全部嗎？1,620全部都可以嗎？"],["沈次長志修：我跟委員說明一下，委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的價格分析，我剛剛為什麼講說廚餘成本最低，是因為像清潔隊的廚餘還可以標售、可以賣錢，如果你今天收了廚餘，卻不能再養豬的時候，他要付錢去給民間的堆肥場也好，或者是清潔隊的堆肥場也好，那都是要付出成本的。但我們必須要面對，廚餘如果要走處理的方式，我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的，比方說黑水虻也是一個我們未來的潛力，包括生質能源的部分，像桃園、臺中這兩個，一個是生、熟廚餘都可以處理，我們會再增加幾座，這個需要時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：那很好，這樣你的圖就不會畫成62%全部往飼料化了，你早就已經小於62%了。"],["沈次長志修：現在62%是因為廚餘可以養豬，所以它自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理，假設政策決定不再用廚餘養豬，自然而然1,620就會有這個效果產生。以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，次長，剛好你也在現場，這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆廚餘山的圖，就馬上趕往現場，但臺中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊！它說短期內就只能堆肥、掩埋或者是燒，結果你們去了以後，他們其實是用最快的速度找地、找方法、緊急堆肥，然後再撒木屑掩蓋堆肥，結果你們就配合……我不知道你們配合什麼啦！反正你們說：對啊！有可能對地下水造成污染等等。我是覺得很寒心，因為馬頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說，環境部到廚餘山馬上就說可能對環境會造成困擾，結果你上禮拜去馬頭山，那個東西是堆了一、兩年，你說這個化驗也沒問題、那個化驗也沒問題、地下水也沒問題，後來我們詢問地面水，問你有沒有想到地面水？帶著你去找地面水，然後你說不行，今天採檢實在是太危險了。很寒心啦，這是什麼雙標！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你有所誤解，禮拜天我們跟臺中在開工作會議時就有提到，因為臺中市報告說在掩埋場做堆肥，而基本上，我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥，沒有堆肥放在掩埋場的，掩埋場有掩埋場的規定，所以當天下午，我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察它是不是符合規定，後來他們也發現他們這樣不符合我們對於掩埋的指引，也不符合堆肥的指引，所以他們就進行了修正。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我跟你說，這個問題就跟你剛剛講的，風災完了以後，就有大量的光電板一樣，現在我們就是有大量的熟廚餘要處理。","打臉三，今天的打臉三，這位次長，你應該記得吧，你上了好多新聞，你過去在112年、113年、114年，你可是頒發臺中市是績優處理廚餘的城市，我念一下，當時您還說臺中市務實的作為、亮眼的表現，是優等獎。如果臺中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題，像你剛剛講的這麼有問題，他連年是得你們的獎，你們環境部在做什麼？你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正、不去指導？你應該要給的是……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，第一個，環境部絕對不是刻意……"],["陳委員菁徽：你應該要給的是……"],["彭部長啓明：我們是照我們的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：你應該要給的東西是什麼，我等一下告訴你，現在就是這麼大量，就像你剛剛講的，為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來，現在就是很大量的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這是兩件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：它絕對不是不會處理廚餘，而是現在一口氣非常的大量，它需要你的指引是更加明確的指引。"],["彭部長啓明：我們指引在第一天就出來了。第二個，委員，你說的這個是臺中有一個外埔的生質能場，那個表現很好，所以他們在前兩年的確得到我們的獎項，那是外埔的生質能場，它有一些回收標準，跟這一次廚餘沒有按時蒸煮去稽核沒有關係，我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標，所以請委員要報真導正。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，我等一下跟你講指引，指引在最後，臺中市政府聽到你講的東西，好，它就部分拿去燒，因為你們就現場給予一些建議，臺中市政府也採納您的建議了，結果這些側翼又出來亂，又說什麼燒又不行，現在變成……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我不是側翼，我不是側翼，我們是照我的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我指的是我的投影片。"],["彭部長啓明：但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼，我也不認識這些議員。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，我們只是覺得寒心，因為你們去這個山跟那個山，你們對於有可能污染地下水……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這是不一樣的事情，委員，你不能這樣指控。"],["陳委員菁徽：有可能污染地下水，這個標準差很多啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣指控，當天有當天不一樣的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了，為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼，現在各縣市的作法就是不一樣，你說你給了指引，可是大家的作法完全不同，我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施，地方政府就乖乖照著做，因為他們要應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛！你要給的是剛性的配套措施。我問他們跟環境部開會開了什麼，這就是地方政府說的啊！他說能源化，快速發酵，堆肥為主，焚化、掩埋為輔。這也是你剛剛給的報告，所以他們就是照做，然後中央表示廚餘都可以燒、也可以堆，沒有再細分了。可是我希望今天我們質詢完，你可以明確的告訴地方政府什麼？第一，就是清清楚楚地看優先順序，假使我們的熟廚餘一下子很大量、上千噸，第一優先是焚化還是掩埋？第二，技術的規範是什麼？因為你剛剛就講了，怕地下水污染，緊急掩埋的覆土標準、防滲透標準是什麼，因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了，這些條件你可以……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範，很清楚是以什麼樣的為主，你上面說的都很清楚，都是我們的規範，而且我們也特別要把在這段期間的清運過程，有沒有產生一些問題，我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力合作，所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在各縣市環保局的會議裡面，都很清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：我只是跟你反映地方政府的狀況……"],["彭部長啓明：當然我必須說垃圾處理……"],["陳委員菁徽：一、二、三、四為主，他照做；二、三為輔，他也照做，然後你說可以燒，也可以堆，沒有在細分，這裡是他們開會的會議紀錄，我把他們會議紀錄都要來了。"],["彭部長啓明：這個裡面要做，有一定的規範，例如掩埋，掩埋就一定要覆土，都有規範。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂！他過去也有照你的規範，不然他不會得你的獎嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有照我們的規範。委員，沒有照我們的規範進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：你過去……"],["彭部長啓明：來，我們請我們副署長說明一下。"],["林副署長左祥：報告委員，當天我到現場去，確實那個場地的設置就不符合我們堆肥場的規範，堆肥場有設置的規範，我也跟他們副市長、局長有溝通過，他也承認那樣的方式不適合堆肥，只能做掩埋……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，其實我希望的是，就像你們面對光電板一樣，從頭到尾，我就講了，現在的狀況是超大量、超大量，所以你必須要協助地方政府，我們真的是希望中央政府、地方政府一條心，如果有更好應付超大量的方式，我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好。因為主席已經站起來了，好嗎？謝謝，我也很期待環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，所以我必須澄清我們絕對不是側翼，我們依照我們的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我從來就沒有說你是側翼，我從頭到尾都沒有講！"],["彭部長啓明：有！你的簡報說得很清楚，說我們是側翼的側翼……"],["陳委員菁徽：我從頭到尾都沒有講你是側翼，我也期待你……"],["彭部長啓明：我必須要嚴格的指出，我們絕對不是側翼，我們憑專業在做事。"],["陳委員菁徽：我期待你最新的報告，跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底「片片有序號」這件事情落不落實得下去？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們正在處理當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：不是、不是，它的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了，這個部分我們也會繼續關注，這是全國人民關心的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長，謝謝。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 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麻煩請局長來 局長請"},{"start":9.332,"end":15.696,"text":"好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們"},{"start":37.848,"end":47.177,"text":"大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期"},{"start":58.667,"end":63.569,"text":"芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎"},{"start":82.034,"end":96.442,"text":"好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼"},{"start":97.142,"end":113.227,"text":"那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難"},{"start":114.628,"end":128.841,"text":"針對芬太尼 還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分"},{"start":129.281,"end":156.298,"text":"那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話"},{"start":157.299,"end":172.377,"text":"那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣"},{"start":173.218,"end":177.961,"text":"雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後"},{"start":201.913,"end":204.236,"text":"大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上"},{"start":218.692,"end":221.093,"text":"可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變"},{"start":238.078,"end":241.18,"text":"會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應"},{"start":265.091,"end":277.96,"text":"所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛"},{"start":295.052,"end":311.808,"text":"大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊"},{"start":318.348,"end":345.102,"text":"就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們"},{"start":345.862,"end":367.099,"text":"了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個"},{"start":368.36,"end":393.114,"text":"比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注"},{"start":393.134,"end":398.477,"text":"我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好"},{"start":409.243,"end":430.762,"text":"我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為"},{"start":433.084,"end":445.729,"text":"好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長"},{"start":450.231,"end":475.441,"text":"自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是"},{"start":476.241,"end":500.178,"text":"就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備"},{"start":502.499,"end":515.511,"text":"聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機"},{"start":522.182,"end":544.675,"text":"最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是"},{"start":545.996,"end":549.399,"text":"自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生"},{"start":566.216,"end":580.008,"text":"這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式"},{"start":580.669,"end":605.087,"text":"或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要"},{"start":607.708,"end":615.233,"text":"針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢"},{"start":632.765,"end":643.153,"text":"所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望"},{"start":649.938,"end":662.316,"text":"提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關"},{"start":665.461,"end":681.979,"text":"主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早。局長，現在備受全球矚目的川習會要在韓國舉行，大概就是明天，很快，這次川習會，美方其實已經公布會將日前美國財政部長與中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的相關協商……"],["蔡局長明彥：初步框架。"],["馬委員文君：這些初步框架包含稀土管制、大豆採購、TikTok股權、加徵100%關稅等，都會作為討論議題，陸方商務部也有提到在馬來西亞的談判中，他們就出口管制、對等關稅暫停期、芬太尼禁毒合作及301船舶收費這些議題也都達成初步共識，好像在這個部分感覺上是進行得還算順利，就我們研析的狀況，因為明天就要談了，國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎？或者還有什麼變數嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提問，因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題，看起來在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態、在施壓對方，希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼，正如委員所提到的，在馬來西亞第五回合的商業談判過程當中，他們已經開始達到一些共識。我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係，希望在現階段能夠有一些成果，所以他們的方式大概是先易後難，針對芬太尼、TikTok以及稀土管制，在這一次川習會能夠有一些成果，看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會友好的氣氛，顯示雙方對川習會都非常非常重視，這是第一部分。","第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及臺灣的議題，看起來是會的，因為川普總統對外說明是會觸及到臺灣的議題，不過這部分委員應該也有注意到，國務卿Rubio也有提到美方不會以臺灣議題來換取中共貿易優惠的待遇，這是他的官方宣示。另外我們來判斷，假如臺灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話，美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業，針對美國對臺政策的立場應該會有一些表述，不過實際的元首互動會不會有其他的狀況，這個部分我們再來密切地注意，大概背景分析是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：如果順著這樣的脈絡，就像剛剛局長所分析的，可是我們看到今天或者近日，不管是中國大陸的一些媒體釋出的訊息，或者我們國內在很多的訊息分析，好像也不完全是這樣，如果他們談崩了以後，大概會有其他的影響，因為這個都有特別提到，習近平在很多方面其實越來越強勢，而且陸方好像也越來越有自信，所以就這些議題可能感覺上還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利。","雖然剛剛局長有提到，不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲臺灣，可是以川普總統自己個人的特質，或者他談判的方式，其實他隨時都會改變，會不會犧牲我們？不曉得。可是像這樣的過程，我們看到川普總統過去一直在指責臺灣竊取美國半導體產業，近期也暫停對臺4億美元的軍售案，還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權，像對臺灣的武器供應，大概就這個部分大家可能看到的，他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好，尤其是臺灣議題，因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個訊息，而且他又說臺灣對大陸來說是蘋果、是他珍愛的東西，像這些議題在討論過程當中沒有很順的話，我們會受到什麼影響？就剛剛大家看到的訊息，局長已經有說明了，那個可能大家都知道，可是如果還有這樣的變數，甚至臺灣會被拿來當成籌碼，或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中有可能會被犧牲，我們會有怎麼樣的因應？或者對我們國安團隊是什麼樣的警訊？"],["蔡局長明彥：就委員提醒的這部分，我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況，我們還要再來注意相關的細節，不過就美中峰會來講，因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲行的重點，以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備、整備的期間，應該都有做非常縝密的推演，包括各項議題怎麼因應的基本立場，以我們了解政府的運作，這部分應該都有做一些規劃，也才會有剛剛跟委員報告的，不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明，實際狀況還是要再做進一步的了解。不過整體峰會的氣氛，我們看到是如同剛剛的說明，他們是鋪陳一個比較正面的氣氛，因為雙方競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面，包括到國安以及科技管制的議題，所以他們在這個階段，大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面、願意管理競爭關係，而有一個比較友好的氣氛，來避免雙方關係的持續升高，為了達到這樣的目的，我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的作業。"],["馬委員文君：那個可能是整體大家希望的目標，可是我剛剛有提到了……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，對！謝謝提醒。"],["馬委員文君：他們在明天要談之前釋出這樣的訊息，顯然可能不一定如大家想像的可以談得很好，我們其實最在乎的是臺灣被放在什麼樣的天秤上面，可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼，這個部分我們先提醒……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來注意。"],["馬委員文君：對！我們國安單位可能……因為明天就要談了，大概很快也會有一個初步結果，就這個部分，我們希望可以去重視，現在大陸的稀土好像有打中要害，我們覺得這個部分可能還是會有變數，再請你們後續可以關注一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來注意，應該的、應該的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，就安控國家隊的隊長自詡為安控國家隊，就是國內上市公司昇銳電子的營業項目從錄影系統、門禁設備，一手全包，可以發現到小至線材、外殼，大到主機板都是來自中國大陸，而且涉嫌把這些陸製的監視器、零件等相關設備組裝以後，貼上臺灣製造。就這個部分，我不知道國安單位掌握了多少，可是有很多單位，包括中華電信他們有很多的子公司，大概都跟這個有相關的接觸，他們都很明白地指出，像這一類的事情，除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門，不管郵局也好、銀行也好，甚至是教育單位都有使用到陸製設備，連教育部都有這樣的設備，他可以掌握所有的資訊，包括你的論文發表、所有師生、所有的個資等等其實都有，但到最後我們只是減價驗收，這個部分非常嚴重。"],["蔡局長明彥：是！"],["馬委員文君：剛剛我們提到昇銳公司監視器主機最嚴重的部分是有回連中國雲端服務的情形，這是我們可以接受的嗎？像這樣的監視器，而且是國防部在使用的，有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器，如果是這樣的情況怎麼辦？現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了，大家都心知肚明，這只是自欺欺人，因為這些紅色供應鏈幾乎時時都存在，可是就我們比較關心的，像這些機敏處所或者像有一些個資的部分，國安單位有什麼樣的想法，或者我們應該要如何去嚇阻或防範類似的問題產生？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個問題確實非常重要，依照現在的規定，政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的相關資通訊產品或周邊設備，這是不容許的。委員有特別提到會不會有貼牌的方式，或不只是設備而已，還包括到一些政府委外的、資安的、維運的方案，有時候還涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或聯繫，這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安。我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題進行一些討論，也有提醒數發部應該針對這些比較新的狀況在法規上要做全面檢視，這是我們前幾天剛好有這樣的討論。"],["馬委員文君：主席，不好意思，耽誤一點時間。最後我要提醒，因為我們不斷、不斷地發生，尤其像國安單位或國防部每年編這麼高額的費用，如果使用陸製產品沒有問題的話，我們應該不用花那麼多錢，所以在預算上面，既然我們要編那麼多，表示大家覺得它是有問題的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是、是。"],["馬委員文君：如果有問題，我們都可以用減價驗收，甚至輕輕帶過，或者只是叫他再補正常的東西，我覺得我們是玩假的，對這個部分，我們希望國安局可以提出具體有效的防範方式，而不是只有開會，剛剛局長說大家有討論，請將怎麼樣制止或防範的有效作法提供出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，一句話跟委員報告，因為我們是國家情報機關……"],["主席：請摘要。"],["蔡局長明彥：主要是針對這個現象、情資，我們有跟國安會報告，國安會為了要進行跨部會協調，他們有召會來進行處理，這個部分我們再持續地做必要的反映，讓相關單位一起來處理。"],["馬委員文君：好，相關的處置作為再提供書面資料，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們再跟委員提書面報告。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。國安局，我們其實已經有修訂法律，如果沒有經允許，在國防採購用中國的零組件是三年以下有期徒刑，而不是減量發包的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為我沒有接觸……"],["主席：對、對！好，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},{"id":"164754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5137cb756198d3bfa9b08d4a2736e01e2ba3c61875d63c71357b740a4ce868cf5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:54:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T10:03:25+08:00","duration":524,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.95159375,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.02284375,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.95409375,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.19846875,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.455343750000004,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.46784375,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.27346875,"end":42.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.94409375,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.96909375,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.51284375,"end":48.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.02721875,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.165968750000005,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.815343750000004,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.76409375,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.77659375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.71284375,"end":64.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.93221875,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.94909375,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.48909375000001,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.45471875,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.48346875,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.71096875,"end":81.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.54971875000001,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.72659375,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.83159375000001,"end":87.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.05096875000001,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.16471875,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.45971875000001,"end":92.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.04596875,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.44659375,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.18034375,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.13346875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.52971875,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.37346875,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.54221875,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.57596875,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.56284375000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.74846875,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.23346875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.72284375000001,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.25846875,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.89096875000001,"end":113.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.01721875000001,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.05096875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.44221875000001,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.53034375000001,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.40284375000002,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.46596875,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.42346875,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.50784375,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.89909375000002,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.62846875,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.64534375,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.03346875,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.02909375000002,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.93159375000002,"end":150.38721875000002},{"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主席 各位委員有請部長我們請部長"},{"start":33.144,"end":55.697,"text":"政委好部長好首先還是要謝謝這個經濟部水利署以及各國營事業的公司這個在這次花蓮馬太安西燕塞浮潰壩所造成的災害這些大家都很辛苦的來"},{"start":58.035,"end":82.566,"text":"這個謝委員幾乎每天都去關心謝謝委員我們還有很多要繼續努力的地方好我們先談今天的主題這個這裡面你們的報告裡面這個特別提到我國近年周邊海域已多次發生因大量抽砂造成海濫裸露並損害"},{"start":84.935,"end":101.298,"text":"基本上這個主要的情形是怎麼樣這個跑到海邊海域去抽砂是為了我們的砂石嗎還是砂石的供應嗎還是其他的工程這個有誰可以說明"},{"start":104.28,"end":129.473,"text":"是不是海委會來說明一下因為這是你們的報告馬祖還是哪裡因為是寫在經濟部的報告在111年以後基本上就沒有之前在馬祖有大量抽砂早期我知道這近幾年沒有吧111年之後"},{"start":131.694,"end":147.923,"text":"幾乎就沒有110年最後一次有扣押以後就不要再引用了是是是不然我會認為是因為我們臺灣的沙已經夠多了因為土石採取法跟大陸交通法這個東沙北運都沒有辦法促成了是那個都已經修法過了好好好謝謝"},{"start":149.96,"end":173.905,"text":"好 就請坐這個有關花東地區的自來水沿管工程那過去本期會因應不同的一個狀況所以正好遇到0918地震這個不幸事件的時候我就特別請這個水利署"},{"start":174.945,"end":196.476,"text":"也請國發會來去協助所以這個部分當初這個部長當初也同意從花東基金從國發會的花東基金裡面來支援當然這個期限已經過了但是我們還是要去追蹤整個辦理情形"},{"start":197.307,"end":222.565,"text":"所以請那個看水利署還是自來水公司在會後再把這個1918地震花東地區自來水沿廣工程當初的計畫然後實際上目前進行辦理的一個情形能夠提供素面資料好的好我們看這個"},{"start":224.793,"end":224.874,"text":"113年11月18號這個"},{"start":229.403,"end":255.466,"text":"行政院核定無自來水第七供水改善計畫第五期的部分這個第五期是從114年度到118總共5年那整個經費這個中央公共建設預算96.5億元自來水公司事業預算6.5億然後華東第七永續發展基金3億元總共106億"},{"start":257.928,"end":265.394,"text":"當然是從今年開始執行我要講的是說這個花東地區過去長期以來這個"},{"start":270.014,"end":298.955,"text":"因為相關資源畢竟還是有限所以就這個五次來水的情形非常的多而且很多都刪了 刪期了所以才會過去就去協調國發會同意用花東基金來去去支應那個多支應像這樣的一個已經有了這樣的預算經費那就會涉及到跟"},{"start":299.383,"end":327.621,"text":"地方政府還包含了這個相關的這些用地的啟德用地的啟德各方面就會涉及到所以怎麼樣去多溝通協調好不容易有這樣的經費能夠把它落實的執行而且尤其是原住民的部分因為這邊有原住民的部分一定要以部落"},{"start":328.949,"end":346.444,"text":"不是用原住民地区这个很大的范围像花东都是原住民族地区那对原住民部落还是所以我也在强调的是我们的经费的支印的一些比例有定一个比例吗有定这个比例所以一定要以部落"},{"start":347.892,"end":367.407,"text":"要以部落为主体来去定这个比例这样的话才落实当初行政院所同意所核定的这个部分这是我再次的来请经济部水利署包括自来水公司"},{"start":368.487,"end":395.423,"text":"能夠去加強這個確實在執行的時候能夠一定要往這樣的一個這個當初的規定已經算是規定了因為你們在整個執行的時候就是從這是從毛志國當院長開始同意的就是原住民的部落跟原住民部落因為那個比例會定那個什麼單位成本"},{"start":396.776,"end":416.591,"text":"那個長度啊單位成本回去算我們過去都永遠吃虧啊所以現在是一部落的話就單獨一個比例在那邊的話就會這個對我們才是這個公平的所以這個部分也請這個經濟部水利署自然水公司能夠落實的執行"},{"start":417.625,"end":435.017,"text":"那最後這個表這個是你們所提供的這個數據當然這個是一個我們要努力達成能夠繼續努力的地方那最後一個時間的關係這個光復鄉大興村沿廣封城這個部分"},{"start":443.923,"end":456.221,"text":"也有涉及到很多機關的用地用地的部分所以這個部分要請這個自來水公司如果哪些部會的用地"},{"start":458.62,"end":481.313,"text":"還沒有完成的要希望能夠主動告訴我我來去協調相關的部會因為現在相公所很忙他也是受災相公所一樓也是受災他忙的這個根本就沒有時間去協調了所以我就尤其很多都是涉及到"},{"start":482.373,"end":504.692,"text":"相關的部會啊有的是涉及到鐵路用地啊我所知道的是好像還有其他的用地這個部分還是你了解一些目前的狀況嗎新的進度跟委員報告我想這個案子的協調我們到時候會請那個委員來跟我們指導一下來協調整個相關的那個單位這樣處理會比較快"},{"start":507.294,"end":526.028,"text":"所以那个部分你先书面提供给我就是哪些还要协调的还要解决的哪些问题涉及到哪些机关提供给我我再去协调谢谢谢谢郑天才委员的咨询谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時55分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。首先還是要謝謝經濟部水利署及各國營事業公司，在這次花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩所造成的災害，大家都很辛苦地救災及進行災後復建。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝委員幾乎每天都去關心，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們還有很多要繼續努力的地方。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們先談今天的主題，你們的報告裡面特別提到，我國近年周邊海域已多次發生因大量抽砂造成海纜裸露並損壞，基本上，這個主要的情形是怎麼樣？跑到海域去抽砂，是為了我們的砂石嗎？還是砂石的供應？還是其他的工程？這個有誰可以說明？"],["龔部長明鑫：是不是海委會來說明一下？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為這是你們的報告啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：上次好像在馬祖還是哪裡……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，因為是寫在經濟部的報告。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，在111年以後，基本上就沒有，之前在馬祖有大量抽砂，經過大力取締，包括……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，早期我知道，最近幾年沒有吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：111年之後幾乎就沒有，110年最後一次有扣押。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以後就不要再引用了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不然我會認為……因為臺灣的砂已經夠多了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為土石採取法跟大陸礁層法……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：尤其東砂北運都沒有辦法促成了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，那個都已經修法過了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝，請回座。有關花東地區的自來水延管工程，過去本席會因應不同的狀況，正好遇到0918地震不幸事件的時候，我就特別請水利署，也請國發會去協助，所以這個部分當初……部長那時候當主委，也同意從國發會的花東基金支應。當然這個期限已經過了，但我們還是要去追蹤整個辦理情形，所以請水利署還是自來水公司，在會後再針對當初0918地震花東地區自來水延管工程計畫，以及目前實際上已經辦理的情形提供書面資料。"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看113年11月18號行政院核定無自來水地區供水改善計畫第五期的部分，第五期是從114年到118年，總共5年，整個經費包括中央公共建設預算96.5億元、自來水公司事業預算6.5億元、花東地區永續發展基金3億元，總共106億元，當然是從今年開始執行了。我要講的是，花東地區長期以來因為相關資源畢竟還是有限，所以無自來水的情形非常多，而且很多都是山區，因此過去就去協調，國發會同意用花東基金來支應，已經有了這樣的預算經費，就會涉及到地方政府、還包含了相關的用地取得，各方面就會涉及到，所以怎麼樣去多溝通協調，好不容易有這樣的經費能夠把它落實執行，尤其是原住民的部分，因為這邊有原住民的部分，一定要以部落，不是以原住民地區這個很大的範圍，像花東都是原住民族地區，對原住民部落還是……所以我一直在強調的是，我們經費支應的一些比例，有訂一個比例嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有訂這個比例，所以一定要以部落為主體來去訂這個比例，這樣才能夠落實當初行政院所同意、所核定的部分，這是我再次請經濟部水利署、包括自來水公司能夠去加強的。確實在執行的時候一定要依當初的規定，已經算是規定了，因為你們在整個執行的時候，這是從毛治國當院長時開始同意的，就是原住民的部落跟原住民部落區，因為那個比例會訂單位成本，長度、單位成本會去算，我們過去都永遠吃虧啊！所以現在是以部落的話，就單獨一個比例在那邊，對我們才是公平的啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分也請經濟部水利署、自來水公司能夠落實執行。","接下來，這個表是你們所提供的數據，當然這是一個我們要努力達成、能夠繼續努力的地方。","最後一個，時間的關係，有關光復鄉大興村延管工程，這個部分也有涉及到很多機關的用地，這個部分如果哪些部會的用地還沒有完成的，也要請自來水公司能夠主動告訴我，我去協調相關的部會。因為現在鄉公所很忙，鄉公所一樓也有受災，忙得根本就沒有時間去協調了，尤其很多都涉及到相關的部會，有的是涉及到鐵路用地，好像還有其他的用地，還是自來水公司有了解目前的狀況有什麼新的進度嗎？"],["李總經理丁來：跟委員報告，這個案子的協調我們到時候會請委員來指導我們、來協調整個相關的單位，這樣要處理會比較快。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，所以你先以書面提供給我，把哪些是還要協調的、還要解決哪些問題、涉及到哪些機關提供給我，我再去協調，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，謝謝備詢官員。","請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51f43487e65cd428ded0e1721cc507f77aa3c61875d63c7135aaf2dd0d3751eaad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:47:06 - 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董事長 你好修昇 我也是剛才黃委員在質詢 我很有共鳴的他在關心的整個議題 我也是很關心的所以你跟教育部說的那個結果也送給我一份 好不好我要呼應他的 是他對於偏鄉"},{"start":33.531,"end":48.593,"text":"非常的關心這個其實長久的問題本席對於原鄉還有有一些都會去比較偏鄉的部分也是在一些專業的一些技術人員"},{"start":49.995,"end":67.077,"text":"的這個佳績這也是本席在關心的但是今天本席因為有幾個主要的重點要跟你討論所以這也請你給大家關心一下尤其是原鄉剛才跟黃委員所講的很類似的問題其實一直在發生尤其是一些專技人員"},{"start":68.098,"end":88.175,"text":"所以改天要這個部分跟您好好的討論但是我先跟你要一個資料剛才黃委員這邊講的你在幾個偏眼地區的合理化方案這個部分的計畫是不是可以給本席一份所以因為其實本席關心的東西也有一些是重疊的所以未來可能還要再跟您做更深入一點討論好不好"},{"start":90.151,"end":107.546,"text":"會後會給委員大概這個禮拜一定會給你所以那整個你說六七個縣市你跟他們有這樣子一個合理化方案那本席來看看我們是不是可以一起找出問題然後把一些東西至少中長期我們把它法制化這樣你們也省掉一些問題"},{"start":109.327,"end":129.326,"text":"所以今天我要跟你討論的 也是軍公教待遇這個調整的一個法治化因為現在的一個狀況 大家都會覺得有點黑箱但是 我們有的東西法治化有一個依循 做到一個公平的機制這樣大家可能不會 比較不會經常有不同的想法 我們可以有一個最大的公約數"},{"start":130.487,"end":155.627,"text":"所以今天整個就是這長期以來軍公教的待遇的調整比較沒有一個法制化的基礎程序上感覺不太透明所以呼應到今年在八月份的時候行政院就拍板說明年軍公教的人員不調薪教育部同事來舉辦的軍公教員工待遇調整的座談會"},{"start":157.268,"end":179.139,"text":"雖然你們說是傾聽基層 凝聚共識但是很多教育團體都表達不滿他們說這根本不是協調 只是摸頭大會來強調行政跟開放政府的時候大家會覺得這有點形式主義因為講了半天最後的結果離大家的期待有很大的一段距離所以軍公教其實在這個部分非常失望那這個"},{"start":181.121,"end":194.139,"text":"可能座談會本身問題不是那麼大但是呢 大家會感覺背後有一點黑箱 因為沒法治所以在這個軍公教待遇審議的委員會裡面其實是握有具體的建議權但是重點是"},{"start":196.542,"end":217.763,"text":"你們排除了這個基層代表的一個參與這個是有參與的這個人員他們所講的一個狀況那審議最後的結果是行政院在拍板那這個攸關十多萬軍公教人員的這個重要制度如果沒有法治基礎的運作那就每年就會有一些變化所以呢這個任市長為什麼要跟你請教兩個核心的問題"},{"start":218.604,"end":244.233,"text":"就是說這個條新誰來決定依據什麼標準來決定會這樣講就是說因為沒有目前這個條新的審議沒有明確的法條規範也沒有固定的計算公式條幅的大小常常都會看政府的所謂你們所說的財政跟政治氣氛你們常說財政不好就沒有辦法處理但是其實真正的核心是我們怎麼樣讓財政變好"},{"start":246.215,"end":267.635,"text":"但是一般百姓關心的就是法制化的基礎上大家對於未來比較可以有期待也可以了解未來的一些變化我們怎麼去因應我們不希望每年都看政府的財政跟政治的氣氛這樣的制度有點違反公開的原則跟我們民主政治也有點相悖所以"},{"start":268.556,"end":283.464,"text":"其實你們在去年有承諾2024年底你們完成這個條新的法制化但是我想你可能會告訴我說現在還卡在行政院我不知道是不是你待會可以給我一個回應我們看到這個感覺法制化的一個承諾"},{"start":284.364,"end":309.589,"text":"今天已經2025年底了好像又要跳票了對於軍公教的調整都這樣可以延宕我們政府怎麼樣呼籲民間企業來為勞工來加薪所以本席認為要恢復軍公教信任跟制度的穩定應該有兩個改革第一個是調新的法制化這樣能夠確保基層的權益第二個是機制要專業化確保能夠抗通膨"},{"start":310.529,"end":337.827,"text":"所以我簡單說明一下軍公教人員待遇調整的草案目前趕快送來立法院我們要明確規範審議委員會的組織職權跟運作方式而且要納入一定比例的基層代表讓軍公教人員能夠預期調薪的時間條件跟幅度不要年年在感覺上好像依賴高層的上億"},{"start":340.749,"end":355.401,"text":"接下來就是現行的制度要能夠採物價指數這個部分目前沒辦法好好的反映生活的成本所以過去13年我們的經濟成長已經達了43.04%但是民生物價漲了26.63%最低工資漲了51.56%但是軍工銷條薪剛14%而已所以實質的購買力都已經被通膨吞噬掉"},{"start":367.27,"end":382.313,"text":"剛才我們說的 如果要加薪留財但是軍公教感覺上實質減薪這樣子的雙重標準大家很難依循所以今年那個調薪的法制化有沒有可能在這個會期送到立法院"},{"start":384.516,"end":413.796,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會來討論那個條帶法之外我們在上一年12月17號已經經過政務委員審議那現在坦白講就是躺在行政院欠缺最後一哩路現在就是last mile現在就是last milelast mile有在行政院走好久喔因為最近國內大事情比較多所以我們一直在那裡cue那我們也期待說會一直發生的啦"},{"start":414.757,"end":434.738,"text":"我也希望他可以順順地來啦啊 代理的就是剛才委員現在還在行政院對不對你去年12月就送出來現在還在行政院嘛 對不對就來不及因為產線有限所以大家要去排 感謝啦你替行政院講話啦但是拜託好不好請議長還是你們這裡"},{"start":436.92,"end":460.346,"text":"很多東西我聽起來大家都覺得卡在行政院這樣大家年年都在期待 當時還可以真的完成最後一日路我三五五時都有去拜託啦但是齊見也比較多啦齊見的應該也不少所以我只好就是用等待來喚起我的夢想的實現"},{"start":463.406,"end":480.511,"text":"另外剛才委員關心的就是這個整個條帶法治法的部分我們大概未來會有一個諮詢委員會那諮詢委員會裡面大概會有你本身說的一定的代表基層的代表可以納入嗎差不多有兩層那有兩層是基層的代表"},{"start":481.051,"end":494.366,"text":"只有兩聲啦 真正請聽我們幾十年的心聲啦剛才委員在提就是說每次的開會大家的表現的方式當然每一個人的期望值都不一樣"},{"start":496.008,"end":512.16,"text":"如果是一般的教師代表也希望大家每年都可以調然後今年在談的時候也有人說該要調10% 20%啦每一個人期望你自己可以判斷啦你如果有法治基礎就有一個公約數嘛對不對"},{"start":514.742,"end":542.283,"text":"那個法治基礎是基本本但是大家標識意見所以我們會有一些參考的一個剛才委員有特別提到你講的是這個參考的價值嘛那個基本上十幾年來二十幾年來你們可以拿一個基準嘛這個部分應該是你們可以做的嘛所以今天本市的訴求就兩個啦一個法治化然後納入基層的這個代表的一個比例"},{"start":542.863,"end":568.684,"text":"好不好 法治法可能我們還要等待 但是麻煩你 辛苦了啦這本來就是我應該要做的急件很多 但是不能一直都卡在行政院 院會啊 委員會聽起來很多東西都在行政院 要怎麼辦不過這樣也很好 因為所以你就先不用解決這些問題 是嗎院長有機會看到我 所以我要去報告"},{"start":570.72,"end":576.705,"text":"但是我們還是以民為主啦主要這都是民間的人民的問題啦我們還是要積極來處理啦好不好拜託 今天這兩件好不好這剛才黃國昌委員說的我們地方的這個家籍"},{"start":585.551,"end":597.501,"text":"這其實都是基層的問題你們覺得整個施政基層的問題我們很大一部分都沒有解決嗎我們一起加油都有解決 只是說一直有新的議題好啦 法治化啦 好不好讓大家有一個公平的基礎 好不好好"},{"start":602.445,"end":625.139,"text":"對 我很快的跟你講一下這是跟你們內部有一點關係我知道你是資訊專業你們上個月發生一件系統測試的問題跟台北市政府你們在台北市政府你們把APP推播台北市停班停課瞬間在平台 大家就很困惑剛剛你們台北市政府有說"},{"start":626.36,"end":643.637,"text":"是你們的人事總署和國家災害教育科學中心在民生市井公開資料平台上在測試但是重點是你們沒有說測試所以大家都叫是真的因為還在上班日結果你們就在那邊中央和地方就在說我們本來以前就有測試但是你們以前如果有測試"},{"start":648.041,"end":670.335,"text":"你們都有放測試的字眼但是這次在台北市上市的時候你們沒有幫忙測試那你說什麼地方自己要自動爬取錯誤任市長你資訊專業你覺得這樣會過嗎我跟委員報告一下以前寫的測試是用中文寫的測試現在要自動化以後我們寫TEST"},{"start":671.015,"end":672.116,"text":"所以這件事情後來我們有跟國科會去拜託負責的要去建構"},{"start":689.306,"end":704.417,"text":"一個正式作業區 還有一個測試區讓大家正式的就不會去放掉了對啦 董事長 你想的會比較大啦想的會比較專業 我跟你說很簡單的啦你說這個 你有什麼Test 大家自動跳過不好意思 如果平常是大家看測試你這個要Test 你也要確定每一個層級都知道Test 是什麼意思 我跟你說一個例子啦今天比較開心的啦 不好意思"},{"start":716.865,"end":721.568,"text":"我們就用吳宗憲委員的很創意的做法我來跟你講一下今天我們在簽名要請教說怎麼有一個我自己以為那個是東南亞文但是我有確認我就問議事人員說這裡是什麼人結果是吳宗憲委員非常遵循院會的傳統所以他簽的字是直的我們平常都看委員會給我們的格式是橫的"},{"start":743.539,"end":765.44,"text":"我如果沒有問 我可能剛剛可能有一個什麼人到最後自己確認 光是我一個人這件事情就會產生這麼大的誤差了那些測試就不能說大家都要聽你好看你資訊專業一樣都可以了解所以這件事你跟台北市政府做這個這麼大條事後又說你要自己爬書這樣對不對 要檢討好不好"},{"start":767.842,"end":776.732,"text":"所以重點就是 安全告知跟雙重確認的制度你們要好好檢討事情發生以後 中央跟地方一起來處理 好不好加油謝謝 謝謝林倩祺委員我不知道你台語說得那麼好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時47分）謝謝我們辛苦的莊召委。我請一下蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：人事長你好。首先，我對於剛才黃委員的質詢很有共鳴，他在關心的那幾個議題，我也是很關心的，你跟教育部談的那個結果也送給我一份好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，沒問題。"],["林委員倩綺：我要呼應他的是，他對於偏鄉非常關心，這個其實是長久的問題，本席對於原鄉還有一些都會區比較偏鄉的一些專業技術人員的加給，也是本席在關心的，今天本席有幾個主要的重點要跟你討論，所以也請你多關心一下，尤其是原鄉，跟剛才黃委員所講的很類似的問題一直在發生，尤其是一些專技人員，所以改天這個部分要跟你好好的討論。但是我先跟你要一個資料，剛才黃委員這邊講的，你在幾個偏遠地區的合理化方案，是不是可以給本席一份？因為本席關心的問題也有一些是重疊的，未來可能還要再跟您做更深入的討論，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會後會給委員，這個禮拜一定會給你。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，你說六、七個縣市有這樣的合理化方案，本席來看看，我們是不是可以一起找出問題，然後把一些事宜至少中長期的部分，我們把它法制化，這樣也省掉你們的一些問題。","今天我要跟你討教的是軍公教待遇調整的法制化，因為現在有一個狀況，大家都覺得有點黑箱，如果有的東西法制化，讓大家有所依循，做到一個公平的機制，這樣大家可能比較不會常常在猜……就是不同的想法，我們可以有一個最大的公約數。長期以來軍公教待遇的調整比較沒有法制化的基礎，程序上大家覺得不太透明，呼應今年8月份的時候，行政院就拍板說明年軍公教人員不調薪，教育部和你們舉辦的軍公教員工待遇調整的座談會，雖然你們說是傾聽基層、凝聚共識，但是很多教育團體都表達不滿，他們說這根本不是協調，純粹就是摸頭大會，在強調行政跟開放政府的時候，大家會覺得這有點形式主義，因為講了半天，最後的結果離大家的期待有很大一段距離，所以軍公教其實在這個部分非常失望。可能座談會本身問題不是那麼大，但大家會感覺背後有一點黑箱，如果沒有法制化的話。在軍公教待遇審議委員會裡面，其實是握有具體的建議權，但重點是你們排除了基層代表的參與，這個是有參與的人員他們所講的一個狀況。審議的最後結果是行政院拍板，攸關十多萬軍公教人員的這個重要制度，如果沒有法制基礎的運作，每年就會有一些變化。","所以人事長，我想跟你請教兩個核心的問題，就是調薪誰決定？依據什麼標準來決定？會這樣講就是因為，目前調薪的審議沒有明確的法條規範，也沒有固定的計算公式，調幅大小常常都會看政府的所謂你們說的財政跟政治氣氛，你們常說財政不好就沒有辦法處理，但其實真正的核心是我們怎麼樣讓財政變好。而一般百姓關心的就是，在法制化的基礎上，大家對於未來比較可以有期待，也可以了解未來的一些變化我們怎麼去因應，我們不希望每年都看政府的財政跟政治氣氛，這樣的制度有點違反公開原則，跟民主政治也有點相悖。","其實你們去年有承諾，2024年底你們要完成調薪的法制化，我想你可能會告訴我說現在又卡在行政院，我不知道是不是，您待會兒可以給我一個回應。我們看到的、感覺法制化的一個承諾，現在已經2025年底了，好像又要跳票了。對於軍公教的調整都可以延宕，那政府怎麼樣呼籲民間企業為勞工加薪？","所以本席認為，要恢復軍公教信任跟制度的穩定，應該有兩個改革：第一個是調薪法制化，這樣能夠確保基層權益；第二個是機制專業化，確保能夠抗通膨。我簡單說明一下，軍公教人員待遇調整的草案，趕快送來立法院，然後我們要明確規範審議委員會的組織、職權跟運作方式，而且要納入一定比例的基層代表，讓軍公教人員能夠預期調薪的時間、條件跟幅度，不要年年在感覺上好像依賴高層的上意。","接下來，就是現行制度要能夠採物價指數，這個部分目前沒辦法好好地反映生活成本。過去13年我們的經濟成長已達43.04%，而民生物價漲了26.63%，最低工資漲了51.56%，但是軍公教調薪只有14%而已，所以實質的購買力都已經被通膨吞噬掉。剛剛我們說到，如果要加薪留才，但軍公教感覺上又實質減薪，這樣子的雙重標準大家很難依循。所以今年調薪的法制化，有沒有可能在這個會期送到立法院？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會答復，調待法制化，我們在上一年12月17號已經經過政務委員審議，現在坦白講就是欠缺……"],["林委員倩綺：躺在行政院？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：欠缺最後一哩路，現在就是last mile。"],["林委員倩綺：是還在行政院，對嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在就是last mile，通過以後……"],["林委員倩綺：last mile，在行政院走好久喔！對吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為最近國內的大事情比較多，所以我們一直在那裡cue，那我們也期待……"],["林委員倩綺：會一直發生的啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我也希望它可以順順地來。第二個就是剛才委員提到……"],["林委員倩綺：現在還在行政院，對吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：嗯。"],["林委員倩綺：你們去年12月就送出來了，現在還在行政院，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就內部那邊，因為產線有限，所以大家要去排……"],["林委員倩綺：好啦！感謝，你替行政院在說話，但是拜託一下，好不好？請院長還是你們這邊要追一下，好不好？很多東西，我聽起來，大家都覺得卡在行政院，這樣大家年年都在那邊期待，什麼時候才能真的完成最後一哩路？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我三不五時都有去拜託，但是急件也比較多。急件的應該也不少，所以我只好就是用等待來喚起我的夢想實現。"],["林委員倩綺：有夠辛苦的、很悲哀的這樣子。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：另外，剛才委員關心的就是這整個調待法制化的部分，我們大概未來會有一個諮詢委員會，諮詢委員會裡面大概會……"],["林委員倩綺：本席說的那個，一定的代表、基層的代表可以納入嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，差不多有兩成，有兩成是基層的代表。"],["林委員倩綺：至少兩成。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，目前……"],["林委員倩綺：真正傾聽基層的心聲。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前開會是這樣。剛才委員在提，就是每一次開會大家的表現方式，當然每一個人的期望值都不一樣，如果是一般的教師代表，他也希望大家每年都可以調。然後今年在談的時候，也有人說最好調10%還是20%，每一個人的期望值都不一樣。"],["林委員倩綺：你們自己可以判斷，你們如果有法制基礎就不會……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道啊！不……"],["林委員倩綺：就有一個公約數，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個法制基礎是基本盤，但是大家表示意見，所以我們會參考一些，剛才委員特別提到……"],["林委員倩綺：對，你說的是參考的價值，基本上十幾年、二十幾年來，你們應該可以抓一個基準，這個部分應該是你們可以做的。所以今天本席的訴求就兩個，一個是法制化，然後納入基層代表的比例，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，這個有。"],["林委員倩綺：法制化，這樣可能我們還要再等待，但是也麻煩你，辛苦了，跟院長再催促一下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這本來就是我應該要做的。"],["林委員倩綺：急件很多，但是不能一直都卡在行政院，如果院會、委員會，聽起來很多東西都在行政院，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不過這樣也很好，因為……"],["林委員倩綺：也很好喔？所以你就先不用解決這些問題，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個場合，院長有機會看到我，所以我要去報告，那也是一個會議……"],["林委員倩綺：好啦！但我們還是以民為主，主要這都是人民的問題，我們還是要積極處理，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：拜託一下，今天就這兩件，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：這跟剛剛黃國昌委員說的，地方的加給，這其實都是基層的問題，你不覺得整個施政、基層的問題，我們很大一部分都沒有解決嗎？我們一起加油。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：都有解決，只是一直有新的問題出來。"],["林委員倩綺：予以法制化，好不好？讓大家有一個覺得公平的基礎，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好、好。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個，我很快地跟你講一下，這跟你們內部有點關係，我知道你是資訊專業，你們上個月發生一件系統測試的問題、跟臺北市政府，在臺北市政府，你們把它app推播臺北市停班停課，瞬間在平臺大家就很困惑。臺北市政府有說，是你們人事總處跟國家災害教育科學中心在民生示警公開資料平臺上測試，但重點是你們沒說測試，所以大家都以為是真的，因為是在上班日。結果中央跟地方就在說，這個我們以前就有測試。但是你們以前若有測試，你們都有放「測試」的字眼，而這次就臺北市你們把它送出去的時候，你們沒有寫是測試，那你們就說什麼地方自己要自動爬取錯誤。人事長，你是資訊專業，你覺得這樣說得過去嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，以前寫的測試是用中文寫的「測試」，現在自動化以後我們寫「test」，也是一樣test……"],["林委員倩綺：你們有跟大家說現在test？你有沒有跟每一個人說test？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，那他們自己……"],["林委員倩綺：不是每一個人都知道「test」是什麼欸！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是中文看習慣了，英文的test他就跳過啊！所以這件事情，後來我們有跟國科會拜託，負責的要去建構一個正式作業區還有一個測試區，讓大家用正式的就不會看錯。"],["林委員倩綺：人事長，你想的會比較大、想的會比較專業。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有、沒有，現在他們在處理了。"],["林委員倩綺：我就跟你說，很簡單……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個他們在處理。"],["林委員倩綺：你說這次你們有寫test，大家自動跳過。不好意思，如果平常大家看到測試，這次要test，你也要確定每一個層級都知道test是什麼意思。","我跟你說一個例子，今天才發生的，不好意思，我們就用吳宗憲委員很創意的作法，我來跟你講一下。今天我們在簽名，我簽到說怎麼有一個……我自己以為那個是東南亞文，但是我有確認，我就問議事人員說：這個是什麼人啊？結果是吳宗憲委員非常遵循院會的傳統，所以他簽的字是直的，而我們平常都看委員會給我們的這個格式、是橫的。如果我沒問，我會覺得說可能有一個是什麼人，到最後就自己確認。光是我一個人，這件事情就會產生這麼大的誤差了，你那個寫test，你不能說每個人的英語都要那麼好，跟你資訊專業一樣都可以了解耶！所以這件你們給臺北市政府弄個這麼大條的，事後還說你們要自己爬梳，這樣對嗎？要檢討，好不好？所以重點是安全告知跟雙重確認的制度，你們要好好檢討。事情發生以後，中央跟地方一起來處理，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，一定的。"],["林委員倩綺：加油。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，我不知道你臺語說得那麼好，下次你如果全程用臺語，我多給你兩分鐘。","接下來請王義川委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da519df2223aa2652f9d198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f6631682cceb1dba85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:37:29 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而且相信地方政府絕對會全力配合中央也絕對願意提自主提高這個檢驗標準不過我們從這一次的這個豬瘟的這個入侵的事件來看中央邊際的檢驗標準還有查緝制度已經產生了破口那本席放在今天各部會的報告裡面都是滿滿都是強調績效如果說真的像我們政府說的這麼好那其他病毒還要照進來我想這個我們大家好好思考一下那也要呼籲各部會"},{"start":149.251,"end":177.287,"text":"問題都發生的我們不該報喜不報憂我們正視這個缺失怎麼樣來落實來檢討改善它才會避免再次發生這樣問題我想這個今天排這個議程最重要的目的我想這邊本席向也提出三個建議來請部委來演繹第一個就是強化入境的檢疫第二個就是杜絕肉品透過包裹入境第三個就是提高保護者我想這三個東西很多委員都有提到這部分也請"},{"start":178.346,"end":195.337,"text":"我們將不會來研討這樣的問題來討論那也在兩個禮拜內提供本席一個報告來具體說明那我想這邊我最後我想最後我要利用點時間來請教安徽主委"},{"start":202.805,"end":231.924,"text":"是 專委好好 主委好所以本席今天還有另外安排就是海岸巡訪的這個審查我想我們防疫的部分先告一個段落我們現在討論這個部分就是我們希望提升第一線海巡人員執行的這個配備保護第一線人員的安全不過本席要趁這個機會來跟我們海巡人員來傳達一些心聲就是有基層的員警來跟我們反映說海巡署艦隊分署的這個警詞跟文詞有同工不同酬的這個問題"},{"start":233.105,"end":248.46,"text":"那目前我们的舰队分属的这个请问人员分为警职就是水上警察部分还有文职就是海岸巡护的这个两类那真是在海上执行的时候承担的风险跟执行的这个请问的内容他所需要的技能虽然都相容但是"},{"start":249.361,"end":277.777,"text":"他的權益有非常大的落差像是這個危檢職務家級還有危老人員的這個認定上面都可能造成你每個月的津貼以及我們這個退休替代率有很大的落差那據本期了解海巡非常的特殊他是有軍警跟文三個不同的屬性在一起的這個單位也是因為這樣你如何確保同樣是第一線的人員之間的權益的平衡"},{"start":279.278,"end":305.466,"text":"那這個是 我想還是 這個是也避免影響世襲的關鍵那在這裡也要請主委得以了解說我們做一個全面性的來檢討 來盤點就是針對我們相關人員執勤的這個內容還有待遇上是不是有不合理甚至明顯有同工不同酬的地方如果是比較有的部分請主管機關研議提升第一線人員的這個相關的待遇跟福利以確保他的公平性也能夠增加我們"},{"start":306.586,"end":335.072,"text":"海巡署裡面的這個士氣那也請主委在一樣在會後兩週內給我一份報告來說好的非常感謝昭偉的關心昭偉真的非常深入的了解軍警文在一體的海巡署面對的這個同工不同酬的問題但是也跟昭偉報告我的報告會很快的在兩個禮拜以內給昭偉但是呢每一種身份的人包括他們退休的制度也不一樣"},{"start":335.672,"end":354.851,"text":"各種家籍的狀況也都不一樣那我們是讓總體而言可以彌平這個同工不同酬的狀態但是譬如說文職的同仁他有加班費但是君子的同仁他就不以加班費來支給他就以其他的家籍來支給所以這個部分我們都容易在爭取"},{"start":358.795,"end":364.797,"text":"包括退休也是不一樣的制度像現在警察的退休有三度通過的法令下去的時候落差會變得更大所以請主委再所以這個本席再次提到就是說請主委我們都一直在努力的在彌平"},{"start":384.125,"end":410.001,"text":"那最近的修法會讓那個落差非常嚴重的去加大所以我們都希望能夠照顧我們很希望能夠溝通然後能夠很專業的處理這個橫貧的問題是 主委 那個最後一點時間我們這一次修法最主要就是希望能夠照顧為這個國家犧牲的這些弟兄這些不管是公務人員也好 警消 海軍也好或者是軍人也好他們為國家付出 我們應該來照顧他"},{"start":412.162,"end":438.431,"text":"那至於制度的問題我想要希望有也拜託會裡面來研究畢竟會裡面的屬性比較特殊我們怎麼樣讓單位裡面各個不同來自不同環境的這些同仁能夠在同工單位裡面有會感受到有差異性的差別所以這個請主委在文職的落差會非常的巨大這個請主委會後再給本席資料那以上謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我們有請內政部馬次長、農業部防疫署署長還有財政部關務署署長。"],["主席：各位首長有請。"],["黃委員建賓：三位早安。本席今天安排了這樣的專案報告，為什麼要特別強調邊境檢疫跟查緝的機制？其實剛才牛煦庭委員講得很好，病毒不會自己生出來，它一定是從外面進來的，它不會憑空出現在臺灣，它也不可能憑空出現在臺中，病毒一定是從境外進入到國內，所以才導致這一次非洲豬瘟的這個破口。就像卓榮泰院長在去年公開的表示，各單位一定要落實邊境管制、嚴格把關，阻絕非洲豬瘟疫情於境外，行政院長自己都已經這樣說了，農業部的陳部長自己也有說，如果這一次病毒確定是非洲豬瘟的話，必定是由境外傳入，所以代表中央的官員非常清楚，非洲豬瘟入侵的源頭不是在臺中，它也不是在哪一個特定的縣市，這就是從外面傳進來的，我想這個大家都很清楚。今天我們除了要探討廚餘養豬、豬場管理、豬隻檢驗，最重要的就是追本溯源，從源頭的邊境檢疫還有查緝制度來做好管控，不要讓非洲豬瘟再進到我們國內，我想這才是要防堵豬瘟的真正關鍵，因為一旦邊境出現破口讓病毒傳進來國內之後，你做再多的疫調都是亡羊補牢。","為了防堵非洲豬瘟的疫情，我相信地方政府絕對會全力配合中央，也絕對願意自主提高檢驗標準，不過我們從這一次非洲豬瘟入侵的事件來看，中央邊境的檢驗標準還有查緝制度已經產生了破口，可是本席翻開今天各部會的報告，裡面滿滿的都在強調績效，如果真的像我們政府說得這麼好，那為什麼病毒會跑進來？我想我們大家要好好思考一下。我也要呼籲各部會，問題都發生了，我們不應該報喜不報憂，我們正視這個缺失，看怎麼樣來落實檢討、改善，才能避免再次發生這樣的問題，這個就是今天我排這個議程最重要的目的。本席也提出三個建議請部會來研議：第一個就是強化入境的檢疫；第二個就是杜絕肉品透過包裹入境；第三個就是提高罰則。很多委員都有提到這三個部分，也請相關部會針對這樣的問題來討論，並在兩個禮拜內提供本席一個報告來具體說明。","最後，我要利用一點時間來請教海委會主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，召委好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委好。本席今天還有另外安排海岸巡防法修正草案的審查，我想對於防疫的部分先告一個段落，我們現在來討論這個部分。我們希望提升第一線海巡人員執勤的配備，保護第一線人員的安全，不過本席也要趁這個機會來傳達海巡人員的一些心聲，就是有基層員警反映海巡署艦隊分署的警職跟文職有同工不同酬的問題。目前艦隊分署的勤務人員分為警職（水上警察）還有文職（海岸巡護）這兩類，雖然在海上執勤時所承擔的風險跟執行勤務時所需要的技能都相同，但是在權益方面有非常大的落差，像危險職務加給還有危勞人員的認定都可能造成每個月的津貼以及退休替代率有很大的落差。","據本席了解，海巡署非常的特殊，它是有軍、警跟文三個不同屬性在一起的單位，也是因為這樣，要如何確保同樣是第一線人員之間權益的平衡？我想這也是避免影響士氣的關鍵，我在這裡也要請主委回去了解，做一個全面性的檢討和盤點，看相關人員執勤的內容還有待遇是否有不合理甚至明顯有同工不同酬的地方，如果真的有這樣的部分，請主管機關研議提升第一線人員相關的待遇跟福利，以確保其公平性，也能夠提升海巡署的士氣，請主委會後在兩週內給我一份報告來說明，可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，非常感謝召委的關心，召委真的非常深入的了解軍、警、文在一體的海巡署所面對的同工不同酬這個問題，但是也跟召委報告，我會很快的在兩個禮拜內把報告送給召委，但是每一種身分的人，包括他們退休的制度不一樣、各種加給的狀況也不一樣，我們事實上總體而言可以彌平這個同工不同酬的狀態，譬如說，文職的同仁有加班費，對軍職的同仁就不以加班費來支給，而是以其他的加給來支給，對於這個部分我們都努力在爭取。"],["黃委員建賓：主委也很清楚會裡面就有三種不一樣的職務在一起，所以請主委要研究一下這個部分。"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括退休也是不一樣的制度，像現在警察退休的法令如果三讀通過並施行，那個落差會變得很大，或是軍職再加薪，那個落差會非常的大，這個衡平的問題很專業，我們都一直在努力的彌平，最近的修法會讓那個落差非常嚴重的加大，我們很希望能夠溝通，然後能夠很專業的處理這個衡平的問題。"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，我還有最後一點時間，我們這一次修法最主要就是希望能夠照顧為國家犧牲的這些弟兄，不管是公務人員也好，警消、海巡人員或者是軍人也好，他們為國家付出，我們應該來照顧他們，至於制度的問題，我也拜託會裡面來研究，畢竟會裡面的屬性比較特殊，我們怎麼樣讓單位裡面來自不同環境的這些同仁在同一個單位裡面不會感受到有差異性，所以請主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，就是未來那個文職的落差會非常的巨大。"],["黃委員建賓：好，請主委會後再給本席資料。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的。"],["黃委員建賓：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓召委。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51bfcba1cf504773d6198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f6631682cceb1dba85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:26:36 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政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎"},{"start":62.813,"end":80.913,"text":"不會嘛 他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解 境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過 當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個 港口也是一個那包括到說 我們現在的"},{"start":82.148,"end":106.382,"text":"移工 外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對 也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對 大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇"},{"start":109.31,"end":128.983,"text":"大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委"},{"start":129.997,"end":146.242,"text":"你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢"},{"start":147.284,"end":168.731,"text":"農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚"},{"start":169.151,"end":185.922,"text":"整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎"},{"start":187.054,"end":205.031,"text":"委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游"},{"start":210.055,"end":238.225,"text":"那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年"},{"start":240.086,"end":248.302,"text":"107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼"},{"start":250.389,"end":273.265,"text":"目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳 這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對 這叫夾帶入境好 郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對 只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的 因為這個也牽扯到說"},{"start":279.704,"end":289.134,"text":"整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡 來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已"},{"start":291.314,"end":317.852,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣 常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好 講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子 裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理"},{"start":322.102,"end":347.603,"text":"是 郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好 這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤"},{"start":348.379,"end":371.298,"text":"現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰"},{"start":372.671,"end":374.632,"text":"報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀"},{"start":387.935,"end":391.659,"text":"人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛"},{"start":407.814,"end":434.932,"text":"也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛"},{"start":438.214,"end":448.276,"text":"我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來 關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛"},{"start":467.811,"end":496.429,"text":"我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為"},{"start":497.352,"end":516.251,"text":"不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到"},{"start":517.73,"end":542.142,"text":"這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除"},{"start":548.414,"end":562.045,"text":"我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰"},{"start":569.811,"end":584.918,"text":"這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉"},{"start":585.618,"end":598.774,"text":"好不好 農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦 好不好"},{"start":612.561,"end":627.354,"text":"除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了"},{"start":627.634,"end":639.368,"text":"沒關係 你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考 大家一起加油 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請農業部防檢署杜署長、關務署彭署長，還有海委會管主委。"],["主席：好，請以上官員列席。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都辛苦了。我先問一下杜署長。杜署長，你今天好像很可憐，要講一講公道話，希望大家共同面對防疫的重大挑戰，結果好像不分朝野都要炮轟你一下，對不對？我希望你一本初衷啦，其實你第一個回答蘇巧慧委員質詢時，本來就回答得很好，就四平八穩的講，大家都有一定的工作跟分工、大家都很努力，這是中央與地方共同的責任。剛剛很多民進黨委員都提到這個是……甚至都要逼你講出就是臺中市政府防疫不力，這都很正常，政治口水嘛，但是我要問的是，非洲豬瘟會平白無故在臺灣境內產生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不會，這一定是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不會嘛，對不對？它一定是境外移入。"],["杜署長麗華：境外移入。"],["牛委員煦庭：以署長的了解，境外移入有哪幾種渠道？就是它怎麼進來的？"],["杜署長麗華：我們也有再研析過，當然從它的管道上來講，機場會是一個，港口也是一個，包括我們現在的移工、外勞等等這些，還有產品。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，你聽一聽啦：第一個叫旅客夾帶，就不管是坐船或坐飛機的，偷偷帶進來的叫旅客夾帶。第二個就是所謂的走私嘛，漁船走私有的沒的，這也是一種夾帶的行為，但它的量比較大，對不對？也有這種走私。第三種叫郵寄嘛，對不對？大概就這三種，有沒有脫離這三種的範疇？大體上應該不脫這樣的範疇。"],["杜署長麗華：對，大概……"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有，你可以補充沒有關係。"],["杜署長麗華：是、是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛也聽了，就是很多委員都在問，包含馬次長講旅客夾帶，我想我們自己有時候常出國回來，這部分該到位的也都有到位，我們該查的都有查，都有過X光機，這部分我想大家都有經驗，所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶。我請教一下管主委，你剛剛講的、剛剛問到你的時候，你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗，我想這個很OK嘛，大家都希望從嚴處理，因為那個豬就死在那個地方，你當然要檢驗嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但問題是，海巡另外一個重要任務是查緝走私嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：最近這一段時間你們有沒有查緝到豬肉走私的狀況？有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：農漁產品比較多，大概四萬多公斤農漁產品的走私，裡面如果……"],["牛委員煦庭：豬肉的部分，我們今天就討論豬肉而已啊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：豬肉的部分，我們沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：四萬多公噸的農漁產品，然後沒有查到任何的豬肉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：公斤。"],["牛委員煦庭：不好意思，是公斤，我修正一下，但並沒有查到走私的豬肉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們過去曾經有查到的是，譬如說毛肚，整船、整船的毛肚，那一次……"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，我只問主委一個啦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛肉的製品是比較多，尤其是牛雜。"],["牛委員煦庭：牛肉製品比較多，我只問主委一個，就是你們都已經盡了最大的努力，我不會否定海巡同仁的辛苦，但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這個問題其實大家都知道答案。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，不行嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們盡全力。"],["牛委員煦庭：你全力以赴，但是這件事是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能，因為這個東西實在是太……你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想每一個管道的問題是一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：每一個管道的問題是一樣的，很好，我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛，好不好？這部分我們希望海巡署就加強把控，尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的部分。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是這個是最上游，基本上，管制到豬場那個部分的管理，恐怕也是最關鍵，但是我們每個層面，我們都盡全力把它做到最好。"],["牛委員煦庭：各司其職，你就守好你的海上，避免走私豬肉，這一點本席要做一下提醒。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們再回到杜署長。","第三個，關務署也一起好不好？這也是本席今天要特別去提醒的，其實就是郵寄，這一段時間，很多委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西，請問我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入臺灣？"],["杜署長麗華：107年。"],["牛委員煦庭：107年嘛，對不對？這其實是很清楚的，請署長跟我們分享一下，違規輸入，就是郵寄入境，跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：目前只要是含有豬肉的製品，一定是20萬起跳。"],["牛委員煦庭：20萬起跳，這叫夾帶入境，就是機場的部分，我看你們的宣導影片也拍很多。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：只要帶豬肉被抓到，至少罰20萬，最高罰100萬，對不對？這叫夾帶入境。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問郵寄入境的罰則是什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：郵寄入境的部分也是一樣，只要是豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會罰嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：真的，因為這個也牽扯到整個追查的部分，確實是有比較困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：比較困難的地方在哪裡？我今天就是要問這個，今天我們要談的是制度補破網，我今天就這一件事而已。"],["杜署長麗華：我請副組長說明一下。"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，因為郵包的部分，寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人，其實在全球都是一樣，常常是對不起來的，所以我們行政調查的案件，到最後會成案、到裁罰的案件，其實相對是比較少的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，講得真好，郵遞寄送的輸入狀況，從有非洲豬瘟到現在，有你頒布重罰的條款到現在，你抓到多少案子、裁罰了多少人？有沒有數據做一下整理。"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，郵包的部分我們攔截到，就是疑似豬肉產品，然後被海關攔下來移送到防檢署的大約有1,000案，但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個案件人。"],["牛委員煦庭：1,000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰？很好，這個就是我今天的重點。來，投影片秀出來，動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級，但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令，如果本席沒有了解錯誤，現在的狀況是這樣，旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬，但問題是郵件寄送輸入，我們先不要講說你追溯、溯源很難罰，你竟然還有後門條款，就是第四點，你可以看投影片上，違反本公告者，由輸出入動物檢疫機關，依動物傳染病防治條例第四十三條第八款規定裁處收件人，但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者，不予處罰。本身要抓郵包已經很困難了，然後你還開一個後門，說首次非故意不予裁罰，難怪你一千多件掌握只有9件裁罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，物跟人要分開處理，物1,000件全部燒毀，人的處罰因為還是要有事證及可以追查得到，所以這個地方是有它的困難度，但物是全部都燒毀。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，物本來就都要燒毀嘛。"],["杜署長麗華：所以這1,000件沒有一件是流入。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是問題是這樣，我們為什麼要罰？比如說夾帶入侵要罰20萬，其實它叫嚇阻嘛，也就是說，不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情。同樣，今天一樣，物當然抓到就沒收，任何夾帶走私抓到本來就要沒收、要把它銷毀，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你如果不重罰，你不加大裁罰力道，然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話，那不是大家還是會想說我試一下，反正了不起……要嘛他抓不到我，就算他抓到我，他也不見得可以證明我是故意，所以我就寄了，那是不是包裹就多了？包裹多了，你邊境檢驗、查核的壓力就大了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：對，我們現在就是針對委員所講的，國際郵包或者快遞的部分，由關務署去檢視整個系統，從登記一直到末端領物……"],["牛委員煦庭：請教關務署，你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉？其實就是這個問題，我們今天在思考制度上要怎麼補破網，要加大裁罰力道，要把它變嚴格，其實就是這個問題，你覺得應不應該把它廢掉？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這不是我們關務署的權責啦。"],["牛委員煦庭：廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：我們都是遵守政策，嚴格查緝。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為都不是你們的權責，你們也不會討論這個事，所以要到立法院討論嘛，對不對？你們都在的時候，我們當場講一講，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，我們在郵包那邊，今年已經查獲到286件了。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛，但還是很多，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：還是會有。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果廢掉，然後變成說我只要一抓到，相對來講，我比較容易裁罰成功，會不會有一點嚇阻效果？"],["彭署長英偉：當然重罰會有嚇阻的效果，但是即使重罰你還是要有證據證明他是一個故意走私的行為。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，我現在就是要講把「非故意」拿掉，我不管你故不故意，你只要進來，我就是罰嘛！對不對？因為多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意，我就更難罰嘛！所以我現在要把這個條款拿掉。"],["彭署長英偉：關於郵包的部分，剛剛有提到常常有收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他，他可能都不知道，所以要罰收件人是有其困難，因為他可能是無故意或過失。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，我就只問你，把這個標準往上提，讓它變得嚴格，即便很有可能會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我們在防疫的時候，現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子對於降低你邊境檢驗的壓力有沒有幫助嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：任何的重罰對我們都有幫助。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，謝謝。來！農業部要不要考慮把它廢除？"],["杜署長麗華：我想對於有不足的地方或者應該修法的地方，我們會著手來處理，但我在這裡還是要說明，這1,000件違規的物品並沒有進到……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道都銷毀了，但是我現在講的是源頭嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，對人的處罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要對人，不管他是夾帶還是郵寄，都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣我們才能儘量堵嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是，我們已經……"],["牛委員煦庭：我很同意剛剛管主委講的，再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百，但是越嚴格效果總是越好嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，從源頭來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你願不願意在這邊就當場承諾，至少我們今天的質詢有一個進展嘛！就是這個還開了一個非故意的巧門，我現在把它拿掉，好不好？農業部要不要答應？"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們來跟相關單位針對這個修法的途徑上來……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個應該不用修，你們內部的行政命令把程序走完其實就好了，這樣會比立法院修法快得多，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你在3天之內要給我們一個答復，可以嗎？我比較希望討論制度來補破網，好不好？"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，除了自己故意寄給自己然後被我們裁罰以外，還有另外一種樣態，就是他不知道這個郵包是誰寄的，他收到這個包裹了，他發現是檢疫物，他也必須要交給我們，如果沒有交出來的話，也有罰則規定處3到15萬，所以這兩種樣態都有對應的罰則。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你們在3天之內針對這個法規做檢討，但是我現在告訴你有這個狀況，而且你的績效就是1,000件只能罰9件，你們要思考一下這件事情，看怎麼樣提高它的效能，這是本席今天質詢的重點，希望大家好好思考，大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：我們請黃建賓召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓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經驗好 那請問一下杜署長就是還有彭署長就是說我們邊境防疫的第一線人員像防檢犬導犬員跟X光查驗員的人力跟防疫犬有沒有缺口"},{"start":217.938,"end":240.194,"text":"其實如果說能夠再調高的話 增加的話其實是有幫助的 是有幫助的但以目前來講的話我們每年的查驗從海關這邊送過來的調查成案的部分那大概從12年到14年採取的這個案件所以這個部分目前聽起來是有缺口的嘛那要怎麼補強呢"},{"start":242.638,"end":267.157,"text":"我們在這個保全的部分那這個的部分其實也是落實在做啦那現在就是關務署的部分我們也希望說能夠在旅客的這個查驗的那個部分那可以再提高他的這個檢驗的一個次數所以關務署署長剛剛那個防檢所說要提高查驗次數你覺得這個是主因嗎"},{"start":269.19,"end":283.782,"text":"我們現在因為要加強查核的一個力度那我們有要求我們這個同仁人工查驗的部分要提高一定的比例目前都雖然都經過百分之百的X光但是就人工查驗的部分我們要求我們已經都達到人力的一個極限了"},{"start":288.121,"end":306.924,"text":"極限就表示人力不足嘛所以這個部分你們有跟這個行政院提出比如說行政部啊每年我們都會檢討我們的人力啊跟財政部是不是需要跟行政院這邊來要求我們也都會跟人總那邊都有要求那就是請行政院要針對這個部分要好好的來去審視我們的基層人力不足的問題喔"},{"start":307.805,"end":335.587,"text":"那當然我也要請教一下警政署長就是針對肉品偽報跟非法攜帶我們剛剛也看到說有一些是在夜市我們可以看到有一些可能是非法攜帶在販售的那請問針對這個部分我們警政署跟關務署跟海巡署是不是有情資共用的平台那針對這樣子的一個案件不管是這個跨境電商或快遞案件建立即時追蹤系統那你們這三年有沒有這個查獲違規肉品的件數跟趨勢是不是有下降"},{"start":336.987,"end":360.014,"text":"我們這個警視署的部分就是配合灌入署還有這個主管機關對於這個邊境的查驗那這5年來大概查了1593件這個豬肉大概2000公斤左右這個就是配合那請問有沒有這個你們有沒有一個情資公用平台可以互相來要不然的話大家都在做一樣的事情那可能我們的工作是跟海關在一起的一起看的"},{"start":361.654,"end":374.966,"text":"那我指的是比如說像夜市喔 夜市的這個部分當然就是配合聯合機場小組一起去配合因為我們要辨別這個部分就是由主管機關來做來做一個 有聯合小組來做這件事情那再請教一下這個杜署長喔 就是說這一次喔這個在107年面對這個這個中國大陸的這個非洲豬瘟的疫情的時候 當時"},{"start":388.479,"end":406.896,"text":"雲林縣張縣長是全面禁止廚餘養豬那時任行政院的我們現在賴清德總統院長他說因為大多數的這個縣市長都反對所以他沒有禁用廚餘養豬可是我現在看起來的話如果七年前就可以禁用廚餘養豬的話現在其實就沒有這個問題因為我剛剛聽了其實不管各位署長的講法其實邊境管理"},{"start":413.263,"end":439.941,"text":"事實上大家都盡了最大的努力重點是儲餘養豬因為你只要不用儲養豬就不會有這個問題了那當時賴總統說不用儲養豬是因為大部分的縣市都反對那請問一下現在一般性補助款大部分的縣市也都反對希望趕快補給他們可是賴總統也沒說因為大部分的縣都反對所以趕快一般性補助款要還給地方所以針對這個部分一農業部的專業來說覺得該不該禁用儲養豬"},{"start":443.802,"end":448.746,"text":"我覺得每個時代有他的時空背景不過以現在來講以現在上來講那這個廚餘的禁止與否其實是地方政府的權責所以現在政府是可以禁止的其實如果中央嚴格要求的話以全國一致性事實上金融廚養豬才是這一次我可以解決"},{"start":462.978,"end":478.777,"text":"非洲豬瘟最大的一個方向才對目前已經我們在跨部會的協調中那重點是還是地方以現在來講譬如雲林也好花蓮也好還有高雄市都是全面禁止廚藝的縣市所以如果說地方政府的話"},{"start":479.318,"end":495.603,"text":"依照自治的一個精神是可以禁止全面的這個其實如果中央要求的話你說地方禁止當然地方有事實上我跟你講要禁用廚餘養豬是非常的困難需要花很多的時間但雲林做得到相信全國都做得到所以對所以我覺得這個可以讓其他縣市來分享絕對做得到但要中央一致的一個法令"},{"start":503.722,"end":519.12,"text":"這樣的地方才不會無所事從那這個部分請這個我們署長要帶回去那那是不是各位請回喔那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘因為剛剛我有讓所有的署長大家有充分的去回答我要請管主委海務委會管主委跟海巡署張署長"},{"start":525.296,"end":540.122,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想請教一下因為最近在10月23號我們又在馬祖的北竿的沙灘發現有死亡的病豬那當然我們在這邊海漂的豬其實常常都發現那剛剛我也聽主委講說"},{"start":541.062,"end":561.437,"text":"基本上你們都把它當視為是非洲豬瘟的陽性而去做提早的處理那但是現在這一件喔它是通經由通報海巡署才知道所以說表示是不是我們的這偵查系統跟人力配置都不足所以常常都是由地方通報那我們海巡署才知道而去做處理"},{"start":562.618,"end":590.049,"text":"跟委員報告基本上官民聯防是整個海防當中的一部分我們巡邏的時候我們會發現如果民眾看到民眾也都會知道通報目前以通報的跟我們主動發現的比例大概是多少我來統計一下數字我們會後統計給委員好不好我現在主要要跟主委提醒的就是"},{"start":590.689,"end":610.456,"text":"因為我們現在看起來我們的人力確實有所不足所以在這個整個的這個偵查的系統會有這樣子的一個漏洞那也因為這樣子的漏洞有可能造成一個破口所以今天在本席在這邊特別要跟主委提醒的就是說針對這個人力的不足事實上是應該要跟巡政院這邊來去要求我們人力不足應該要補足"},{"start":613.997,"end":632.267,"text":"包括說我們有固定的SOP把這個檢體跟移送的過程應該都有固定的這個部分百分之百這個部分真的是百分之百的滴水不漏我們從出去的時候穿防護衣一到的時候馬上會控制現場因為環境的傾銷很重要我們會把那個防護線拉起來"},{"start":636.189,"end":647.152,"text":"那控制現場以後我們立刻就請這個防檢局到現場所以一定都通知地方政府那檢體呢檢體怎麼移送檢體就照防檢的程序會帶回去就做檢體那每一個案呢我們一定是初報、續報到結報一定追蹤到檢體到底是陰性還是陽性最後請一下張署長請教一下張署長就是署內目前就執勤的鑑體"},{"start":663.857,"end":669.179,"text":"岸際的監控系統跟檢疫的器材是否足夠應付當前的一個勤務就是執勤的艦艇還有岸際的監控系統跟檢疫的器材是否足夠應付當前的勤務跟委員報告所有艦艇的監控系統跟偵測系統是夠的但是檢疫的部分不是我們海巡組來負責那請看一下這篇報導就是審計部跟基層你們的這個"},{"start":692.591,"end":700.344,"text":"艦艇的人員都有提到其實現在海巡艦艇是人力不足的那所以說這個部分到底是什麼樣的原因"},{"start":701.585,"end":715.893,"text":"下請沒有辦法上達還是你們不了解事實上整體艦艇的人員是運用人數是不夠的跟委員報告我們艦艇的那個人員來是夠的那主要的那就是你們的調度有問題有一個空窗期是因為招生跟特考進來進入的時間他大概有三到六個月的空窗期因為他們進來以後要再受訓然後再到艦艇上去服務我想請主委跟署長要正視這個問題因為不管是審計部不管是基層的這個我們的同仁"},{"start":729.881,"end":737.227,"text":"都有發出這樣的警訊所以針對這樣子的一個人力的不足跟人力的調配請要好好的檢討相關的問題那也希望說會後也給我相關的資料那當然我想最後要跟各位報告就是說其實這一次的疫情啊如果不幸擴大的話可能會癱瘓的是我們2000萬產值的養豬產業所以說非同小可也是希望大家在每一個關節裡面大家都能夠一起共同來防疫讓我們台灣可以繼續更好"},{"start":758.464,"end":759.309,"text":"在這邊也感謝各位謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時13分）謝謝主席，我們請警政署張署長、移民署林署長、防檢署杜署長和關務署彭署長。"],["主席：好，請以上列席首長。"],["許委員宇甄：各位署長好。這一次非洲豬瘟的問題可以看到，最大的問題其實是在邊境執法的漏洞，幾年前，我們就已經宣布禁止從國外網購豬肉或肉品寄送入境，對不對？這是屬於哪一位負責的業務？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，豬肉跟含豬肉製品都是禁止輸入。"],["許委員宇甄：是幾年前宣布的？"],["彭署長英偉：這個政策是農業部訂定的，海關是執行單位。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那為什麼最近有民進黨的立委說是時候禁止淘寶等中國電商寄送肉製品到臺灣，有這個可能性嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：這已經執行非常多年了。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說其實早就禁止了，根本沒有這個問題。本席也有到淘寶網站點進去要買中國的豬肉，事實上它是完全沒辦法買的，它就告訴你中國是禁止輸入肉製品的。我不知道這個民進黨的立委是有特殊的管道，知道政府並沒有要嚴加查緝網購的食品，還是說本來就有很多違規的部分，在初檢階段就已經被錯放了？請問署長有這個可能嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，從我們查獲的統計數字來看，去年大概有一千一百多件，今年到現在有850件，這是海關在邊境把守查獲的部分，大部分都是來自旅客，旅客大概占了6成；那郵包的部分大概會占3成左右，所以還是有可能……"],["許委員宇甄：其實關務署是很嚴格在執行這樣子的一個……"],["彭署長英偉：當然是。"],["許委員宇甄：事實上我們出國搭機的時候，都感受到關務署這邊是非常的嚴格在執行，所以說我想民進黨的立委不該造謠的，就不要亂造謠，不要老是用這樣的方式去讓民眾恐慌，或是說拼多多、淘寶都是豬瘟的最大破口。其實現在大家擔心的是，從境外移入的時候，就如同剛剛講的6成是旅客帶進來的，那麼在這個查緝的過程中，經由X光機的查驗，真的有辦法百分之百查驗到嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們看X光機是利用它的顏色、密度以及形狀，這六、七年來我們都有建立資料庫，我們同仁對X光的判讀也都有做訓練，也有分級，我們有分初級、中級、高級。受過這些認證的都有四百……"],["許委員宇甄：所以，原則上你們在做這樣的查驗，其實是可以達到最高的效果是嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：我們非常的落實，然後我們也都有經驗。"],["許委員宇甄：好，再請問一下杜署長和彭署長，我們邊境防疫的第一線人員像防檢犬、保全員跟X光查驗員的人力，跟防疫犬有沒有缺口？"],["杜署長麗華：如果能夠再調高，再增加的話，其實是有幫助的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示是有缺口，人力是不足的。"],["杜署長麗華：是有幫助的；但以目前來講，我們每年的查驗從海關這邊送過來調查成案的部分，從112年到114年裁處的案件有40件……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分，目前聽起來是有缺口的嘛！那要怎麼補強？"],["杜署長麗華：我們在保全的這個部分，其實也是落實在做；現在就是關務署的部分，我們希望可以再提高旅客查驗的檢驗次數。"],["許委員宇甄：請問關務署署長，剛剛防檢署說要提高查驗次數，你覺得是這個是主因嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們現在因為要加強查核的力度，所以我們有要求同仁在人工查驗的部分，要提高一定的比例。目前雖然都經過百分之百的X光，但就人工查驗的部分，我們要求同仁……"],["許委員宇甄：人力夠不夠？"],["彭署長英偉：我們已經都達到人力的極限了。"],["許委員宇甄：極限不就表示人力不足嘛！所以這個部分，你們有跟行政院提出，比如說請內政部、財政部……"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，我們每年都會檢討我們的人力。"],["許委員宇甄：是不是需要跟行政院這邊來要求？"],["彭署長英偉：我們也都會跟人總……"],["許委員宇甄：都有要求？"],["彭署長英偉：對，都有要求。"],["許委員宇甄：那就請行政院針對這個部分，好好的審視我們基層人力不足的問題。當然我也要請教一下警政署長，針對肉品偽報跟非法攜帶的部分，有一些我們在夜市可以看到，有一些可能是非法攜帶在販售的，針對這個部分，警政署跟關務署跟海巡署是不是有情資共用的平台，針對這樣的案件，不管是跨境電商或快遞案件，建立即時追蹤系統，你們這三年有沒有查獲違規肉品？件數跟趨勢是不是有下降？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，警政署的部分就是配合關務署，還有主管機關對於邊境的查驗，這五年來大概查了1,593件，這個豬肉大概2,000公斤左右。這個就是配合……"],["許委員宇甄：請問你們有沒有一個情資共用平台可以互相來連繫，要不然的話大家都在做一樣的事情，那可能會……"],["張署長榮興：我們的工作是跟海關一起看的……"],["許委員宇甄：比如像夜市剛剛提到……"],["張署長榮興：夜市的這個部分，大概就是配合聯合稽查小組一起，因為我們要辨別這個部分就是由主管機關來做……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你們有一個小組，等於說……"],["張署長榮興：有聯合小組來做這件事情。"],["許委員宇甄：再請教一下杜署長，107年在面對中國大陸非洲豬瘟疫情的時候，當時雲林縣張縣長是全面禁止廚餘養豬，時任的行政院長，也就是現在的賴清德總統，他說因為大多數的縣市長反對，所以他沒有禁用廚餘養豬，可是現在看起來，如果七年前就禁用廚餘養豬的話，其實現在就沒有這個問題。剛剛聽了各位署長的講法，其實大家對邊境管理都盡了最大努力，重點是廚餘養豬，因為只要不用廚餘養豬，就不會有這個問題了。當時賴院長說不用廚餘養豬是因為大部分的縣市都反對，那請問一下，現在一般性補助款，大部分的縣市也都反對，希望趕快補給他們啊！可是賴總統也沒有因為大部分縣市都反對，就趕快把一般性補助款還給地方！針對這個部分，依農業部的專業來說，你們覺得該不該禁用廚餘養豬？"],["杜署長麗華：我覺得每個時代有它的時空背景，不過以現在來講……"],["許委員宇甄：您就以現在的專業來講。"],["杜署長麗華：以現在來講，廚餘的禁止與否其實是地方政府的權責，所以現在……"],["許委員宇甄：如果中央嚴格要求的話，全國一致性，事實上禁用廚餘養豬才是這一次我們可以解決非洲豬瘟最大的一個方向才對。"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們在跨部會協調中，重點還是地方，以現在來講，比如雲林也好、花蓮也好，還有高雄市都是全面禁止廚餘的縣市，所以地方政府依照自治的精神是可以禁止全面的……"],["許委員宇甄：如果中央可以要求的話；我跟你講要地方禁用廚餘養豬是非常的困難，需要花很多的時間，但雲林做得到，相信全國都做得到……"],["杜署長麗華：高雄市也做得到。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以我覺得這個可以讓其他縣市來分享，絕對做得到，但要中央一致的法令，這樣地方才不會無所適從。這個部分也請署長要帶回去。","不好意思，請主席再給我一分鐘，因為剛剛我讓所有的署長有充分的回答。接下來我要請教海委會管主委跟海巡署張署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。主委，10月23日我們又在馬祖北竿的沙灘發現有死亡的病豬，海漂的豬其實常常發現，剛剛也聽主委講了，基本上你們都把它視為是非洲豬瘟的陽性而提早做處理；但是現在這一件它是經由通報，海巡署才知道，這是不是表示我們的偵查系統跟人力配置都不足，所以常常都是由地方通報，海巡署才知道去做處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，基本上官民聯防是整個海防當中的一部分，我們巡邏的時候，我們會發現；如果民眾看到，民眾也都會通報，基本上，我們每天都有巡邏。"],["許委員宇甄：對，目前已通報的跟我們主動發現的比例，大概是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會後統計給委員好不好？"],["許委員宇甄：好，我要跟主委提醒的，是因為現在看起來，我們的人力確實有所不足，所以在這整個偵查系統會有這樣子的一個漏洞，也因為這樣子的漏洞，有可能造成一個破口。所以本席今天在這邊特別要跟主委提醒的，就是針對人力的不足，應該要跟行政院要求我們人力不足，予以補足，包括我們是不是有固定的SOP，就是對這個檢體跟移送的過程，應該都有固定的SOP。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分真的是百分之百的滴水不漏，我們從出去的時候穿防護衣，一到了馬上會控制現場，因為環境的清消很重要，我們會把防護線拉起來；控制現場以後，立刻就請防檢局到現場，所以一定都通知地方政府。"],["許委員宇甄：檢體呢？檢體怎麼移送？"],["管主任委員碧玲：檢體就照防檢的程序會帶回去做檢驗，每一個案都一定是初報、續報到結報，一定追蹤到檢體到底是陰性或陽性才會結束。"],["許委員宇甄：我最後請教一下張署長，署內目前就執勤的艦艇、岸際的監控系統跟檢疫的器材，是否足夠應付當前的勤務？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，所有艦艇的監控系統跟偵搜系統是夠的，但檢疫的部分並不是我們海巡署來負責。"],["許委員宇甄：請看一下這篇報導，審計部跟你們的基層、艦艇人員都有提到，其實現在海巡艦艇人力是不足的，所以這個部分到底是什麼樣的原因？是下情沒有辦法上達，還是你們不了解事實上整體艦艇人員的人數是不夠的？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，我們艦艇人員的來源是夠的，主要會有中間一個空窗……"],["許委員宇甄：那就是你們的調度有問題、運用有問題？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：有一個空窗期是因為招生跟特考進來到進用的時間，大概有三到六個月的空窗期，因為他們進來以後還要再受訓，然後再到艦艇上去服務。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請主委跟署長一定要正視這個問題，因為不管是審計部，不管是你們基層的同仁都有發出這樣的警訊，針對這樣一個人力不足跟人力調配的情況，請你們去好好檢討相關的問題，也希望你們會後能給我相關的資料。","當然，最後要跟各位報告的是，其實這一次的疫情如果不幸擴大的話，可能會癱瘓我們2,000萬產值的養豬產業，所以這件事非同小可，也希望大家在每一個關節裡面都能夠一起共同來防疫，讓我們臺灣可以繼續更好，在這邊也感謝各位，謝謝。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員，謝謝列席的官員。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da515de574d9b418eade198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192fb22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:01:56 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不要再想再講這些了"},{"start":275.772,"end":280.897,"text":"這個是有具體的嘛所以你說事後就會提供是嗎所以現在你沒有具體的這個工作我們要執行我們要執行我們要做功課你來背執行你都不做功課你都要提供資料而已嗎我們要的是你要了解所以最近網路"},{"start":296.371,"end":306.419,"text":"網路上也有很多側翼幫你們宣傳因為立法院善預算所以防疫的宣傳不足才導致破口請問一下你們有觀察到哪個部分防疫的宣傳確實不足嗎還是說印了太少我們的宣傳彈還有海報廣告"},{"start":323.462,"end":328.287,"text":"因為預算有停止嗎還有我們邊境的積查抽查旅客的行李包裹這個頻率有沒有因為預算刪除降低了呢報告委員我們該做的都是有去做而且這個的整個防疫的工作其實是沒有降低的"},{"start":349.451,"end":373.699,"text":"好都沒有降低嗎沒有降低的不管我們是中央跟地方所以你們做得很好嗎不是做得很好就是大家都知道因為畢竟這已經守護了7年所以有他的一定的基本的流程但要注意的是像包括他的監測這些都照我們原來的年度目標在走所以這些就是你們的這些側翼就是你們每天都在講預算刪除我們的預算"},{"start":376.98,"end":381.921,"text":"六億多三兩千還有五億多所以我們就是做不了了所以來再來呢我們在網路特別查到就是防疫署的官網裡面的宣傳影片上架已經五年了到現在只有三到四百個觀看率五年平均約五"},{"start":406.033,"end":408.374,"text":"四五天只有一個人觀看這樣子叫做做得很好很有效率是嗎所以甚至我們在越南版的非洲非洲主義的宣傳的動畫還變成私人的影片沒辦法看這樣子的請教一下這樣的預算做宣傳很有效率嗎"},{"start":437.363,"end":442.227,"text":"5億多 上了2000萬 你們做這個很有效率所以你們要持續在做報告委員 您檢視的是108年可是以今年來講 我們的宣傳影片在今年的暑假放了一支放了一支 現在網路上看到的就是這個數據不是我們是7年前的 是現在的現在網路搜尋的 我沒有在7年前當立委這個是現在 這是108年的"},{"start":466.646,"end":473.172,"text":"2008年的你們要做這個影片到現在就是這個數據我們有新的新的版本新的版本我們沒有看到看到網路就是這個好那我們可以提供新的版本給委員表示你們在宣傳不夠網路才沒有看到我們看到的是這個看到就是"},{"start":483.769,"end":488.512,"text":"就是這樣子的一個問題所以我們非洲族人一直在我們也肯定我們的農業部還有關屋署這幾年守住防線的努力但我們注意到的是說我們行政部門每次出事就先喊說要團結"},{"start":508.223,"end":512.504,"text":"接著又要說車一一起就是怪我們的立法院怪這野黨所以我們這樣的操作防疫真的有幫助嗎真的沒有幫助我們要的是效果我們要提出的問題要解決問題不是說你們都是要去怪別人都別人的事不是你們的事沒有啦委員我們坐地沒有"},{"start":534.028,"end":539.369,"text":"所以我們第一時間的時候大家一起看要怎麼來解決這個問題而且都緊急 措施都出來所以我們大家的影響都沒有用到一點點所以剛才才說你不要再去講說什麼善意善事實上沒有沒有 這絕對也不是我們部門或農部來說明也不能怪說什麼立法院在野黨我們是為了要執行我們的監督權所以呢但是委員"},{"start":563.653,"end":568.014,"text":"預算充足當然我們會比較好做因為我們時間的關係我們是監督你們你們要監督地方所以我們要要求你們的預算你們要很多的你們的預算拿過來我們要監督要來去說我們要動預算希望你們要把事情做好但是從5月份我們已經解凍了"},{"start":588.641,"end":591.443,"text":"到現在所以你們有沒有加強這個宣傳嗎這個才是我們想要的不要再去講預算也沒有問題是預算的問題所以你們這講的做得很好所以我們這邊最後因為時間的關係我們要強調的防疫"},{"start":609.995,"end":614.816,"text":"是行政部門的責任也是我們的人民的事情不分藍綠所以我們不分中央或地方我們要在野黨的凍結我們的預算是要行政單位要檢討制度因為我們從基層來的我們看到你們的預算一張一千萬兩張兩千萬基層的一本厚號才五萬三萬所以我們真的看了就是"},{"start":640.104,"end":645.071,"text":"很難過啦確實要有效益啦所以不只就是防疫真正的檢討是說我們的執行的機制還有"},{"start":652.847,"end":659.55,"text":"制度的落動不是拿政治口水轉移焦點希望行政團隊要停止帶風向實際盤點這次的破口讓我們的人民安心也讓我們台灣重新站回非一的防線上這個才是你的工作目標才能達到執行的效率"},{"start":680.399,"end":684.263,"text":"我們都是這樣做報告委員 我們也都是這樣做好 這樣做要有數據啊我問的這些數據的實體怎麼應做要實際的給我 不可以這樣用講的講都是講 都是空話又沒有實體的數據 沒有實體的做法我們要的是執行力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請農業部還有關務署。"],["主席：請以上單位。"],["杜署長麗華：委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：早。我想請教一下，目前這起非洲豬瘟病毒的源頭查到了嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對源頭目前還在調查中，在臺中市政府所提出的疫調報告裡面還是都沒有交代清楚，所以下個階段從今天起由我們農業部從中央介入，專家會議……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要問的是你們中央的事情，不是說就這樣甩鍋。"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：依照農業部既定的防疫SOP，中央與地方應該依序啟動哪些通報還有採樣、隔離與回報的程序？臺中對這個案例的通報流程是否有哪一些環節沒有依據SOP來執行？"],["杜署長麗華：我們檢視了他們目前的作為，臺中市政府在警示系統異常然後通報的時候，他們在第一時間的回報系統其實不是很完整，而且沒有提高警覺，所以延到……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以他們沒有照SOP執行，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對，目前推估起來應該是誤判，因為確實呈現的是陽性，但是過去可能我們大家是當作一般的疾病在做處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為你們是監督的單位，所以我們要來監督你們，你們要做好監督的工作。既然防疫SOP的運作有部分正常，有部分不正常，所以我們今天要來問你們，你們要做好監督的工作。你剛才說防疫一直都有持續，但是有一些你們覺得監督不好，不是臺中的問題，是你們監督的SOP……"],["杜署長麗華：是臺中的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你的意思是說你們對SOP執行的監督都很好，是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：他應該是要依照我們一般的SOP流程走，就是非洲豬瘟有一個……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你就是說有持續，所以我們要確認一下這些前期的防護措施在近3年來有沒有出現遞減的情形？我們想要知道的，不是只是說臺中怎麼樣、臺中怎麼樣，我們要問的是中央的監督。"],["杜署長麗華：我們都有，不管在肉品上、豬場上，一般防疫及監控的流程，都有其基本的一個運作……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，OK，就是說3年來沒有出現遞減的情形，講得很好，如果是這樣的話，那麼我們的宣傳次數、邊境查檢件數、抽查頻率等一些指標，是增加、持平，還是逐年減少，能否提供具體數據給我？"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們可以提供數據。"],["麥委員玉珍：不能只是用講的，不能是電視在講、報紙在講、別人在講，然後你才來講，不可以這樣，要有具體數據。"],["杜署長麗華：是，我們會把我們的次數，包括經費的部分也會來反應，不過經費確實是有刪減，但我們並沒有疏忽，還是依照現有的經費能做多少事情，就強力去做。"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在要的是次數、件數，還有頻率等這些……"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們再提供。"],["麥委員玉珍：要有具體數據，不要滿腦子都是錢、錢，這是你們該做的工作，不要再講那些啦！這些具體數據，你說事後會提供，是嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：是，會提供數據。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你現在沒有具體工作……"],["杜署長麗華：不是，我們都有。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們質詢要做功課，你來被質詢都不做功課，都只要提供資料而已，但我們要的是你要了解。","另外，最近網路上有很多側翼幫你們宣傳，表示是因為立法院刪預算，防疫宣傳不足才導致破口，請問，你們有觀察到哪個部分的防疫宣傳確實不足，因為預算問題，宣傳單、海報印太少，廣告也因而停止？邊境部分，有因為預算刪除，導致旅客行李、包裹的稽查、抽查頻率降低？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們該做的都有去做，整個防疫工作其實是沒有降低的。"],["麥委員玉珍：都沒有降低嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：沒有降低，不管是中央或地方。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們做得很好嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不是做得很好，就是大家都知道，畢竟我們已經守護了7年，所以有它一定的基本流程跟注意事項，包括監測等這些，都照著我們原來的年度目標在走。"],["麥委員玉珍：這些側翼每天都在講是因為預算刪除，預算六億多，刪了2,000萬，還有五億多，你們難道做不了？","另外，我們特別查了防疫署官網上的宣傳影片，上架5年，到現在只有300到400個觀看率，平均4、5天只有一個人觀看，這樣叫做做得很好，很有效率？是嗎？甚至越南版的非洲豬瘟宣傳動畫還變成私人影片而無法播放，請教，這樣的預算做宣傳，很有效率嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：五億多預算，刪了2,000萬，你們還說很有效率、都有持續在做？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，你檢視的是108年的部分，以今年來講，我們在今年暑假放了一支宣傳影片，在我們的航空站都非常受到……"],["麥委員玉珍：放了一支？現在網路上看到的就是這個數據，這不是7年前的，是現在的喔！現在在網路搜尋到的，我7年前沒有當立委，這是現在……"],["杜署長麗華：是YouTube沒有更新資料，這是108年的。"],["麥委員玉珍：108年的？你們做的這個影片，到現在就是這個數據啊！"],["杜署長麗華：我們有新的版本，都推陳出新在……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們沒有看到新的版本，網路上看到的就是這樣。"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們可以提供新的版本給委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：這表示你們的宣傳不夠，網路上才沒有看到，我們看到的就是這樣一個問題。本席也肯定農業部及關務署這幾年守住防線的努力，但我們在意的是，行政部門不要每次出事就先喊要團結，接著就和側翼一起怪立法院、怪在野黨，這樣的操作，對防疫真的有幫助嗎？真的沒有幫助，我們要的是效果，我們要提出問題、解決問題，而不是像你們都只會怪別人，說這些都是別人的事情，不是你們的事情。"],["杜署長麗華：沒有啦！委員，我們絕對沒有，我們第一時間就跟地方大家一起商討看要怎麼解決問題，緊急措施也都出來了，所以我們每天晚上都忙到一、兩點，我們不會推工作的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以我剛才才說你不要再講什麼刪預算，事實上……"],["杜署長麗華：沒有，沒有，這絕對也不是我們部門或農業部說明的，絕對不是啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：也不能怪立法院、在野黨，我們是為了執行我們的監督權，所以……"],["杜署長麗華：但是委員，預算充足，當然部門會比較好做啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：我們監督你們，你們監督地方，所以你們提出預算需求，我們要監督，提出凍結預算，也是希望你們把事情做好……"],["杜署長麗華：是，這是共同目標。"],["麥委員玉珍：而且預算從5月份就已經解凍了，你們有沒有加強宣傳？我想這才是我們要的，不要再講預算問題。","因為時間關係，最後我要強調，防疫是行政部門的責任，也是人民的事情，不分藍綠、不分中央或地方，在野黨要求凍結預算，是要行政單位檢討制度，因為從我們基層的角度來看，你們的預算書是1張1,000萬、2張2,000萬，基層的是一本厚厚的才5萬、3萬，我們看了真的很難過，要確實有效益，不只是防疫，真正要檢討的是執行的機制，還有制度的漏洞，而不是拿政治口水來轉移焦點，希望行政團隊能停止帶風向，實際盤點這次的破口，讓人民安心，也讓臺灣重新站回非疫的防線上，這個才是你的工作目標，也才能達到執行的效率，可以嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我們都是這樣做的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們也都是這樣做，盡力把我們的工作做好。"],["麥委員玉珍：是這樣做要有數據，我問的這些數據、運作機制，要實際給我……"],["杜署長麗華：好，數據再補充給委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：不能都是用講的，不然講的都是空話……"],["杜署長麗華：不會，不會。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有實體數據，也沒有實體作法，我們要的是執行力，謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，也請相關部會把資料趕快提供給委員。","接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164812","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51e4003b9691b6623b198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192fb22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:53:11 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藍萌菜也好 各市都沒有在馬當賣市長 是你來看嘉義市的董事在馬當你有看過嗎"},{"start":120.762,"end":122.324,"text":"或是我現在給你看,你給我看,或是你知道你有沒有看見說,這個問題最重要"},{"start":129.367,"end":133.688,"text":"我們在18、22號的時候 全國管制的時候就是靜宅禁運 那開始的時候 第一階段就這樣做我還不知道靜宅禁運 我是說署長 你的感受啦今天我們有嚴格 特工去 了解說這地點 它的分 有過沒 均到90%沒"},{"start":157.998,"end":163.5,"text":"雖然他在那裡也想要賺錢他也不希望他的地來死地方政府有辦法去體諒這個老人沒辦法上船但是在這個過程整個國會前還有辦法上船是怎樣發生的事沒辦法上船地方政府覺得一個去關心一個"},{"start":188.467,"end":202.771,"text":"市長是我們這個已經對這個什麼台中的資料出來開始針對這個廚餘沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落實沒有落"},{"start":209.943,"end":211.805,"text":"他的斟酌的時間也不夠所以這可能也是一個問題所以這就是那個什麼環保署這邊你追查說為什麼他怎麼會說這個部分地方政府他沒有按時懲罰署長你知不知道這個運用多大像你剛才說的"},{"start":229.724,"end":231.206,"text":"營養兩千個名你覺得各行各業都會營養到賣保安的賣螺絲肉的賣安全的主要有地貨的地方台灣人都愛吃溫泰的溫泰的煮得更香結果你看現在"},{"start":250.987,"end":252.069,"text":"現在你看到一個做生意的人他說要配合我們政府"},{"start":261.127,"end":265.029,"text":"所以,署長,他最危險,是說感謝一路支持我的人你如果再倒來想,是不是我們要感謝這些做生意的人,支持我們中央的政策你看到現在,信心的信心,沒買沒買署長,這不是兩清一亮的"},{"start":288.712,"end":292.453,"text":"這是非常嚴重的 你看他自己在當時 你看他用一個暫停箭 署長 我們要同理心"},{"start":305.555,"end":308.817,"text":"是 報告委員這部份已經被你研究這部份已經被你研究這部份已經被你研究"},{"start":324.429,"end":327.331,"text":"整個人你現在在研究沒有沒有沒有是在研究什麼不是,這禮拜就會提出方案經濟部就會提出方案對灘商的補助、補貼、獎勵措施經濟部已經在跨部會會議的時候已經有這樣的共識跟研擬了所以這禮拜經濟部會提出來市長,我告訴你們報酬的報酬"},{"start":349.583,"end":352.966,"text":"像嘉義市,我剛才說的,你如果看到那裡的圖案,那裡的董事,你如果看,你如果看一下,你如果看,來看一張,你看,都沒有在做啦,"},{"start":367.912,"end":375.694,"text":"包括那個泡沫的包括在那裡做冷缸的都沒辦法吃透了所以受應用的宣洩的部分在這禮拜公佈的時候對他們一定有獎勵的措施啦所以跟委員報告有獎勵的措施市長本身跟你說的你們要回去研究不是賣豬肉的應用很大的喔再來所有的做生意的人"},{"start":397.864,"end":401.386,"text":"都做沒辦法做生意這也影響很大的這後續的你們要去研議好對不對所以說市長在這裡本身要跟你說我們你剛才說的到目前為止是跟台中市長"},{"start":417.796,"end":420.398,"text":"有問題 是 結果有問題的時候我每天來你們討資料 每天關心 關心到現在你們說的地方 也有兩個的所在檸檯有養性的 說實在 署長 也是他這間我都不知道他這間啦 自己都沒注意的聽結果不是他這間的問題"},{"start":444.278,"end":447.319,"text":"你們的噴 政府的噴 他們在那邊 人們在那裡 人們在那裡太暑了 什麼的 自己吃下去 吐下去這是親親喪禮所以這不行 這絕對不行 要禁止絕對不行 現在人們噴 也吃下去環境部已經加強這個部分了是 市長 今天我怎麼說得這麼氣憤"},{"start":474.106,"end":474.388,"text":"因為我相信台灣人"},{"start":476.8,"end":479.021,"text":"吃豬肉 比吃牛肉 吃雞 吃鴨還要多所以在這個規定當中未來雞 鴨 牛肉 長大的時候你們要怎麼去處理販售的環境的經濟你們都要去保持好 我們都我們都已經在處理了跟你們不用緊張 跟他們怎麼做就怎麼做是是是以上好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時53分）主席，請農業部防檢署署長。"],["主席：請杜署長。"],["王委員美惠：說實在，今天要談這個議題，實在講不太下去。署長知道今天的日子嗎？是什麼節日？你知道嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：重陽節。"],["王委員美惠：我真的會昏倒，你連今天是什麼日子都不知道，你要來……"],["杜署長麗華：因為我們已經……"],["王委員美惠：你們可能都記國曆的，不太記農曆的。今天的節日非常重要，因為今天是重陽節，是一年當中長輩最愛領紅包祈求平安順利的日子。署長，我今天怎麼會這樣跟你說呢？因為現在士農工商都很忙，如果是有拜拜的人都會利用一年三節，而今天重陽節是最重要的日子，為了紀念祖先要拜拜，你知道嗎？我為什麼會跟你說這個？因為我來自嘉義市，你知道嘉義市，不論東市場或南田市場，各個市場都沒有豬肉可以賣。署長，你來看嘉義市東市場的豬肉攤，你有看到嗎？還是我現在給你看，你才有看到？還是在早上你就發現這個問題的嚴重性？"],["杜署長麗華：我們在10月22號全國管制開始禁宰禁運的時候，第一階段就是這樣做，所以就沒辦法……"],["王委員美惠：我怎麼會不知道禁宰禁運？我是問署長的感受，今天我們如果有每天嚴格地去了解豬場的廚餘有沒有煮沸到90度，他養豬也是為了想要賺錢，他也不希望他的豬死亡，地方政府是否有體諒這個老人沒辦法上傳？不過在這個過程中，在幾個月前還有辦法上傳，為什麼在發生的時候沒辦法上傳？署長，地方政府有任何一個人去關心一下嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我們已經從臺中的資料查出來，他確實針對這個廚餘的部分沒有落實。"],["王委員美惠：我怎麼會不知道是從臺中出來？不然是從哪個地方出來的？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟王委員報告，以這個案場的廚餘來說：第一個是沒有按時陳報；第二個，它蒸煮的時間也不夠，所以這可能也是一個問題。"],["王委員美惠：署長，為什麼會沒有按時陳報啦？"],["杜署長麗華：所以環保署這邊正在追查，他沒有按時陳報，為什麼地方政府沒有去查……"],["王委員美惠：署長，你知道這個影響有多大嗎？你剛剛說影響只有2,000億而已，你知道各行各業都會受到影響嗎？賣肉圓的、賣滷熟肉的、賣香腸的，都是以豬肉為主要原料，臺灣人都愛吃溫體豬肉，因為溫體豬肉煮起來比較香啊！結果你看在禁宰之後，有一個做生意的人在臉書貼文說要配合我們政府，他在最後有寫「感謝一路支持的你們」，署長，你如果再倒過來想，我們是不是要感謝這些做生意的人支持我們中央的政策？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["王委員美惠：你看看現在這些人，有人損失嚴重、有人不能賣了，署長，這不是只有2,000億而已，這是非常的嚴重，你看嘉義市的東市場按下暫停鍵，署長，我們要有同理心啦！哪裡做得不對，哪裡做得不好，地方政府如果不夠積極，我們中央是不是要協助他們？"],["杜署長麗華：是，報告委員，這個部分已經有在研究，在這個禮拜就會公布，我們跟經濟部研擬對攤商的補助……"],["王委員美惠：署長，都已經發生多少天了，你現在才要研究，是在研究什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，在這個禮拜就會提出方案，經濟部就會提出對攤商的補助、補貼、獎勵措施，在跨部會會議的時候已經有這樣的共識並進行研擬，所以經濟部在這個禮拜就會提出來。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我說給你聽，你說到補助，我剛剛有跟你說過，你如果看到嘉義市東市場的那些攤販，你來看一下這一張，你看他們都沒有在做了，包括處理豬隻屠體的人還有在那裡打零工的人都沒有工作可做了！"],["杜署長麗華：跟委員報告，對於受影響而損失的部分，在這個禮拜會公布，對他們一定有獎勵的措施。"],["王委員美惠：有獎勵的措施？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["王委員美惠：署長，剛才本席跟你說的問題，你們要回去研究，不是只有對賣豬肉的人影響很大，所有做生意的人都沒有辦法做生意，這也是影響很大，所以對後續的部分你們要去研議。"],["杜署長麗華：有。"],["王委員美惠：好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們遵辦。"],["王委員美惠：署長，你剛剛說到目前為止只有臺中那個場有問題。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["王委員美惠：可是我每天跟你們要資料，每天都關心，我關心到現在，你們說那個場還有兩處檢驗出陽性，說實在的，署長……"],["杜署長麗華：也是他這個場。"],["王委員美惠：我怎麼會不知道是這個場啦？署長，你都沒有注意聽，不是只有這個場有問題，地方政府把那些廚餘就放在那裡，萬一有山豬還是什麼野豬自己去偷吃，然後混摻在一起，這樣也是會很悽慘！"],["杜署長麗華：所以這絕對不行，一定要禁止，環境部……"],["王委員美惠：你說絕對不行，可是現在廚餘也是接著倒下去。"],["杜署長麗華：環境部已經在加強這個部分了。"],["王委員美惠：署長，今天我為什麼會說得這麼氣憤呢？因為我相信臺灣人吃豬肉比吃牛肉、雞肉、鴨肉還要多，所以在這個過程當中，未來雞、鴨、牛肉的價格如果大漲，你們要怎麼去處理？對於民生經濟，你們都要去保持穩定！"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們都已經有在處理了。"],["王委員美惠：不要只是在這裡說有，你不必緊張，該怎麼做就怎麼做。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["王委員美惠：以上。"],["杜署長麗華：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓）：謝謝王美惠召委，這確實是來自基層的聲音，百姓受到的影響真的很大，相關部會對這個部分要趕快來解決。","接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51fe447725109e481c198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192fb22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:43:57 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署長所以我們現在目前也在全面 全國性的防疫都在做加強 還是避免它擴散出去你就回答我的問題嘛 對不對是不是有疏失我剛剛有說過這個案例發生絕對是有疏失值得檢討的地方"},{"start":106.417,"end":120.64,"text":"我們這一個防堵非洲豬瘟這一個跨部會的部門已經成立7年多了是對不對那今天有書師誰的書師比較多目前的安妮廠是在台中"},{"start":123.164,"end":131.852,"text":"全台灣都知道在台中啦是我說誰的疏失比較多啦以你們現在這一個禮拜來講的話誰的疏失比較多目前我們檢測起來是從台中市的從通報開始然後好啦我就問你啦是地方政府的疏失多還是中央啊你就回答我這樣就好了啦目前我們真的還在疫調中"},{"start":146.306,"end":157.149,"text":"什麼叫疫調中啊你又講有疏失啊到底誰的疏失現在目前比較多大家都要檢討啦其實因為剛才講到那你如果這樣講你要不要檢討你自己啊我也會檢討對我也會檢討不是啦我立法委員我在問你你就回答我的問題就好了啊那台中市目前來講的話他們的所有的資料其實是很欠缺的很不足的那有很多帶釐清事項也沒有釐清清楚"},{"start":175.1,"end":192.532,"text":"阿對嘛所以他的疏失比較多吧目前資料顯示是如此阿對嘛你就這樣回答就好了嘛就不是在究責我們是要找出問題把它解決嘛為什麼要這樣問好那你們現在全國的疫調有沒有第二家養豬場有這個問題目前全國的部分"},{"start":193.513,"end":198.059,"text":"都沒有第二例所以這也是我們沒有第二例但潛伏期有多久15天15天過了嗎15天還沒有所以邁入第二階段那我看到的新聞說台中烏漆這個養豬場裡面還有檢測到"},{"start":211.155,"end":214.196,"text":"病毒的殘留有沒有這件事有就是這個案場我們加強傾銷以後我們也特別在針對這個案場看有沒有落實再做檢測所以抽了14個樣品以後發現兩個兩個是陽性就是還有嘛對不對是他沒有落實是環境好"},{"start":231.021,"end":244.01,"text":"我跟你講鞋子踩到會不會會會對不對所以目前全國還沒有是蠻慶幸的潛伏期還沒過對不對我剛剛講的是幾千億的產值2000億我應該不只吧應該不只吧你的2000億應該是那個養豬場的2000億周邊應該不只2000億吧是不是不只"},{"start":261.144,"end":273.797,"text":"對對嘛所以我說的就不是所以我的意思就是說你現在如果台中市政府已經不可靠了中央要不要強力的去做有有啦有是我跟你講"},{"start":279.053,"end":296.525,"text":"這個不能讓病毒擴散出去這是一個非常重要的一件事情不只為了養豬場也為了全台灣也為了國際形象也為了我們所有公務人員你今天在這裡你今天做的不是該做的事情"},{"start":297.799,"end":322.276,"text":"除了該做的事情之外你做的是救台灣幾千億的產值這應該是很努力去做的一件事情中央地方都要一起來但如果地方他的人力不夠或什麼的中央就要扛起來啦 是不是是嘛 沒錯你這樣回答我們就來看啦看能不能真正的把它防堵起來啦那我先 我再問一下海關我們最近這半年"},{"start":327.401,"end":347.705,"text":"我們裁罰了多少包委員我們今年啦你就回答我最近這半年裁罰了多少我有這個數字是截至到今我不管截至850件今年啦最近半年啦最近半年的數字我要統計大概是600件左右吧你剛剛說800件800件是從1月1號到現在今年才800件啊去年呢去年1100多件"},{"start":358.121,"end":374.764,"text":"阿在前年呢一千大概兩三百件左右阿怎麼逐年遞減是啊因為原廠的關係也是因為原廠不是因為不是因為沒有原廠所以越來越少吧當然不是這樣子就很奇怪了啦該堵的都堵阿這個病毒從哪裡來的"},{"start":385.115,"end":408.807,"text":"這個不是你的專業啦這不是你的專業啦但總有一個漏洞在那邊啦對不對但這個漏洞呢大家現在都知道了啦該哪裡該補我相信啦現在大家都緊繃起來啦我跟你講七年多了沒有事情擔心的就是大家越來越放鬆越來越放鬆才會這樣啦不然"},{"start":412.905,"end":423.696,"text":"這一件事情如果大家是很認真會拖一個多禮拜然後才讓全國知道嗎才說確認嗎那個杜署長如果是大家都戰戰兢兢的像七年前一開始這個情況會發生嗎"},{"start":433.57,"end":446.16,"text":"所以說地方的防疫單位你就回答我會不會發生啦其實大家都很認真在做啦你不要再跟我講這些嘛如果大家都像七年前一開始這樣很緊張這件事情會晚拖"},{"start":449.744,"end":455.751,"text":"晚一個多禮拜才通報嗎其實機率會變小什麼叫機率會變小我跟你講在這裡不要講官話啦我們是解決問題啦又沒人要究責又沒人要什麼對不對我再問一次如果是大家都以七年前剛開始的態度去做事這件事情會發生嗎對如果這樣子的話"},{"start":471.976,"end":490.704,"text":"這麼高的警覺性其實機率就很小可能就不會發生對嘛所以我覺得就是一個態度的問題啦一個態度的問題啦今天就是因為態度造成這樣所以我現在要跟署長你說的態度要拿出來啦"},{"start":492.011,"end":517.683,"text":"我們現在是要把它防堵擴散到其他的豬場這個態度要拿出來但你們的態度國內是你們要負全責但我請這些其他署長上來也是要讓你們知道你們也要幫忙防堵不然國內清理好了後續還這樣會有第二次發生這次如果大家再緊張七年後大家又不緊張了有可能又第二次"},{"start":519.185,"end":539.215,"text":"這個是我今天要質詢你的重點所以署長多浪費你一點時間我真的覺得用最高規格的啦你不要再去管台中市政府怎麼樣了啦台中市政府都已經這樣就沒有辦法信任了嘛沒有辦法信任的情況之下我覺得啦該強力的處理就處理好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時43分）請警政署長。"],["主席：張署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有海巡署署長。"],["主席：海巡署署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有農業部動植物防疫檢疫署署長。"],["主席：杜署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有財政部關務署署長。"],["主席：彭署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：這一次非洲豬瘟這件事，我們努力了那麼多年就破功了！我想請問一下，這個到底有沒有疏忽？請農業部的杜署長。"],["杜署長麗華：其實從我們目前的資料來講，臺中本身應該是一個追查的重點。"],["張委員宏陸：不是！有沒有疏忽？"],["杜署長麗華：應該是有疏忽才會造成。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛？我就要這句。一個疏忽造成了全臺灣幾千億的損失，影響國際形象，還有我們努力了20年，我們的豬肉終於可以出口了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：政府的一個疏失造成了巨大的損失，有多少豬農會倒？"],["杜署長麗華：所以我們目前全國的防疫都全面性在加強，避免它擴散出去。"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我的問題嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是有疏失？"],["杜署長麗華：我剛剛有說過，這個案例發生絕對有疏失及值得檢討的地方。"],["張委員宏陸：好。我們防堵非洲豬瘟這一個跨部會的部門已經成立七年多了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：今天有疏失，誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：目前的案例場是在臺中。"],["張委員宏陸：全臺灣都知道在臺中，我是問誰的疏失比較多？以這一個禮拜來講，目前誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們檢測起來是從臺中市的通報開始，然後……"],["張委員宏陸：好，我就問你，是地方政府的疏失多，還是中央？你回答我這樣就好了。"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們真的還在疫調中。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼叫疫調中？"],["杜署長麗華：疫調中就是追查原因……"],["張委員宏陸：你講有疏失，到底目前是誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：大家都要檢討。因為剛剛也講到……"],["張委員宏陸：如果照你這樣講，你要不要檢討你自己？"],["杜署長麗華：我也會檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：不是！我是立法委員，我在問你，你回答我的問題就好了！"],["杜署長麗華：好，目前來講，臺中市所有的資料都是很欠缺的、很不足的，有很多待釐清事項也沒有釐清清楚。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以他的疏失比較多吧？"],["杜署長麗華：目前資料顯示是如此。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！你這樣回答就好了。這不是在究責，我們是要找出問題，把它解決，不然我為什麼要這樣問。你們現在全國的疫調有沒有發現第二家養豬場有這個問題？"],["杜署長麗華：目前全國的部分都沒有第二例，所以我們的重點也一直放在這裡。"],["張委員宏陸：好，沒有第二例，但潛伏期有多久？"],["杜署長麗華：15天。"],["張委員宏陸：15天嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：15天過了嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：還沒有15天，所以邁入第二階段……"],["張委員宏陸：好，還沒有。我看到新聞說，臺中梧棲這個養豬場裡面還有檢測到病毒殘留，有沒有這件事？"],["杜署長麗華：有，就是這個案場，我們加強清消以後，特別再針對這個案場看有沒有落實，所以再檢測，抽了14個樣品以後，發現有2個是陽性。"],["張委員宏陸：就是還有，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是，沒有落實。"],["張委員宏陸：就是還有嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：是，環境……"],["張委員宏陸：鞋子踩到會不會？"],["杜署長麗華：會。"],["張委員宏陸：目前全國還沒有是蠻慶幸的，但是潛伏期還沒過，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是，所以不能鬆懈。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的是幾千億的產值……"],["杜署長麗華：2,000億。"],["張委員宏陸：應該不只吧？你說的2,000億應該是養豬場的2,000億吧？"],["杜署長麗華：跟周邊。"],["張委員宏陸：周邊應該不只2,000億吧？是不是不只？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我說的就不是……我的意思是，現在如果臺中市政府已經不可靠了，中央要不要強力的去做？"],["杜署長麗華：有。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，不能讓病毒擴散出去是非常重要的一件事情，不只為了養豬場，也為了全臺灣、也為了國際形象、也為了所有的公務人員，你今天在這裡做的不只是該做的事情，除了該做的事情之外，你做的是救臺灣幾千億的產值，這應該是要很努力去做的一件事情，中央、地方都要一起來。如果地方的人力不夠或什麼的，中央就要扛起來，是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你這樣回答，我們就來看能不能真正的把它防堵起來。我再問一下海關，最近這半年你們裁罰了多少？"],["彭署長英偉：我們今年……"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我，最近這半年裁罰了多少違規？"],["彭署長英偉：我有這個數字是截至到……"],["張委員宏陸：我不管截至……"],["彭署長英偉：850件。"],["張委員宏陸：今年、最近半年……"],["彭署長英偉：最近半年的數字還要統計，大概是600件左右。"],["張委員宏陸：你剛剛說800件，現在又變600……"],["彭署長英偉：800件是從1月1號到現在。"],["張委員宏陸：今年才800件，去年呢？"],["彭署長英偉：去年一千一百多件。"],["張委員宏陸：前年呢？"],["彭署長英偉：大概一千兩、三百件左右。"],["張委員宏陸：怎麼逐年遞減？"],["彭署長英偉：是，因為嚴查的關係。"],["張委員宏陸：是因為嚴查，不是因為沒有嚴查，所以越來越少吧？"],["彭署長英偉：當然不是，因為我們一向以高標準、高規格來對待。"],["張委員宏陸：但這樣就很奇怪了，既然該堵的都堵，這個病毒從哪裡來？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，農業部那邊有說……"],["張委員宏陸：這不是你的專業！但總有一個漏洞在那邊，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：但這個漏洞大家現在都知道了，該哪裡、該補，我相信大家都已經緊繃起來。我跟你講，七年多來沒有事情，擔心的就是大家越來越放鬆，越來越放鬆才會這樣，不然這一件事情，如果大家很認真，會拖一個多禮拜才讓全國知道嗎？才說確認嗎？杜署長，如果大家都戰戰兢兢的，像7年前一開始，這個情況會發生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：所以地方的防疫單位……"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我，會不會發生？"],["杜署長麗華：其實大家都很認真在做。"],["張委員宏陸：不！你不要再跟我講這些，如果大家都像7年前一開始這樣很緊張，這件事情會拖到晚一個多禮拜才通報嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：其實機率會變小。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼叫機率會變小？我跟你講，在這裡不要講官話，我們是解決問題，又沒人要究責、又沒人要什麼，對不對？我再問一次，如果是大家都以7年前剛開始的態度去做事，這件事情會發生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：如果有這麼高的警覺性，其實機率就很小，可能就不會發生。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！我覺得就是一個態度的問題。今天就是因為態度造成這樣，所以我現在要跟署長說：態度要拿出來！我們現在是要防堵它擴散到其他豬場，這個態度要拿出來，國內是你們要負全責。我請其他署長上來也是要讓他們知道，他們也要幫忙防堵，不然國內清理好了，後續還這樣的話，會有第二次發生。這次如果大家緊張，7年後大家又不緊張了，有可能又有第二次，這個是我今天要質詢你的重點，所以多浪費署長一點時間。我真的覺得用最高規格的，你不要再管臺中市政府怎麼樣了，臺中市政府都已經這樣，就沒有辦法信任了。在沒有辦法信任的情況之下，我覺得該強力的處理就處理，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","下一位請王美惠召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da510928af644470a335198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f8b5c004b5ca1c9ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:33:02 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有請"},{"start":36.991,"end":64.237,"text":"好各位長官好大家早今天為什麼要請每個單位的長官大家一起到這邊因為剛剛剛剛我們蘇委員也特別質詢也非常義憤填膺為什麼因為非洲豬瘟台灣已經防疫7年成功了那今年的5月29號台灣也是獲得國際的這些衛生組織的獎章正式列為非疫區想不到在5個月的今天今天10月29號"},{"start":65.357,"end":82.662,"text":"我們必須要這邊再質詢請教各位官員為什麼非洲豬瘟會在台灣發生首例而且目前來講就像剛剛在討論的部分現在還在努力的防堵當然就我們國家而言防堵病毒的入侵"},{"start":83.502,"end":109.393,"text":"不只是以國內防疫為主那邊境檢疫要共同守住動物健康的這個防線是非常重要尤其是嚴格的邊境檢疫策略是扮演關鍵的角色作為杜絕病疾病境外的第一道防線不管是機場港口郵局這些通路都要強化查驗來防止動物跟其產品的非法輸入所以第一個我想要請問這個我們各單位的這個"},{"start":112.374,"end":141.191,"text":"長官現在有沒有查出非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是在哪裡是不是請各單位的主管簡單說明一下先有請內政部的馬次長請問有查到現在非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是哪裡嗎跟委員報告我們在行警局我們配合各個單位執行我們的邊境查驗那從110年到現在我們總共查了1593件那麼也查扣了2000多公斤"},{"start":141.857,"end":164.55,"text":"那這裡面我們有陽性的建設所以馬市長認為您這邊是百分之百防疫沒有問題我們現在的部分執行的這個強度非常高那旅客非法攜帶的部分還是我們查緝的重點謝謝接下來請海委會管主委主委這邊"},{"start":166.767,"end":193.525,"text":"海巡署在案记诸事的部分大概成功的拦阻了20个案例我们采取的是100%都当作非洲族文来处理这个部分是100%的所以179次只有20次是阳系159次我们不认为那个是做白宫因为有必要"},{"start":194.185,"end":221.711,"text":"我們就是當作有可能所以我們第一時間防護衣穿著就衝出去好 這個是海巡的做法好 謝謝館主委接下來我們請張署長好 委員我們的邊境管制最主要是機場跟港口由我們的航空警察局協助貫入署對於入境旅客那台灣機場的部分就是對於入境的這個行李配合海關在做這樣的一個檢視"},{"start":222.851,"end":230.254,"text":"那另外旅客的部分就是這個水手攜帶的目前是由關務署就是由防檢署對於這個疫區來有專線在做檢查那我想就是這個是有歷史的變從108年到108年我們原先這個內政部是有支援這個防檢署是專案在看但108年的7月以後就回歸給"},{"start":249.36,"end":264.611,"text":"給這個灌入署來擔任德情保全大隊就對了對對對所以這個部分的行李就移給他們來做其實這方面的非洲之音的這個檢查是非常嚴謹的那另外就是說這個剛剛我們這次也提過就是從111年到目前為止大概這個查驗的這個狀況大概有這樣的跡象那港口的部分是由這個我們的港務警察總隊"},{"start":278.9,"end":285.825,"text":"配合海關還有這些檢力單位一起來做一個執行好 謝謝 謝謝署長我們請關務署報告委員這六七年來海關一向以高標準高規格高警覺來防渡非洲豬瘟都沒有鬆懈政策也都沒有改變過那我們會繼續嚴查這個非洲豬瘟加強力道那這幾年來也查獲了一萬三千五百多件都移送防監署去做採訪以上"},{"start":310.499,"end":315.6,"text":"剛剛聽完各個我們所有邊際防疫的長官回覆後我有幾個問題想要來請問第一個我們先請內政部馬次長馬次長"},{"start":325.68,"end":340.181,"text":"就我這邊得知就有關於這個航警局的這個部分那航警局我這邊有收到線索就是說航警局的部分有人力就是來協助有關於這個貨物的進出口負責的這個非洲豬瘟的查驗"},{"start":340.982,"end":365.114,"text":"那我這邊有得到消息因為我還沒有找到確切的數字聽說航警局的部分人力是有吃緊的一個部分那很多的人力是被調到其他的單位比如說像寶二的關鍵基礎設施請問有沒有這樣的情形沒有這個問題沒有這個問題我們對於這個寶二的這個這個一波都是要填選自願的所以對於這個航空的N警大隊的警力現在是充足的"},{"start":367.855,"end":384.326,"text":"這幾年的人數是不是有逐年下降目前大概就是說大概缺200多人那我在今年的10月10日再補54人那安檢大隊對於這個出境或入境的這個警力的這個執行目前是沒有問題的"},{"start":385.347,"end":413.829,"text":"好就是航警局現在就是配合這個安檢大隊安檢大隊現在警力是沒問題的可是就我得知啦因為我還沒有要到確切的數字就是逐年我們這個安檢大隊的人力是有短少的那我收到的消息是有被拍到這個寶二的關鍵基礎設施所以這邊拜託署長會後是不是可以提供我們相關的數字如果人數有減少就是邊境查緝這個非洲豬瘟的或者是一些毒品的人數尤其在這個入境的部分"},{"start":414.429,"end":421.992,"text":"尤其檢查貨物的部分人力有缺少請要盡速來補齊好嗎好沒問題好謝謝第二個我們請管主委主委好那請問一下你們現在這個海巡的人員在剛剛你特別講到的在查緝這個岸邊查緝這個疑似有走私的船的時候你們人力的數量人力的人數是否足夠"},{"start":439.981,"end":456.708,"text":"各位委員報告確實我們在海上的人力今年的上半年有一個短期間的落差因為畢業的同學考完試然後要進來服務的中間中間有一個落差這個部分完全沒有問題這個問題我們只要發現到目前為止是百分之百我們都處理的"},{"start":467.712,"end":486.738,"text":"對其實這就是我要講的尤其在海巡的部分我也收到這個海巡人員給我的一些小建議他說雖然是百分之百的查緝可是查緝的時間跟查緝的精準度上如果你只有一兩個人去查的話一個漁民他會覺得說你查了很久他會不耐煩造成查緝人員的一些心理的壓力"},{"start":488.198,"end":510.343,"text":"對安檢的人員那所以我的意思是說如果你們人力不足還是需要拜託你們把這個人力的狀況稍微去補齊一下我們下半年會把這個同學畢業以後然後經過考試訓練完畢以後他們就位的時候上半年的時候離職的數字下半年都補足了所以什麼時候會補足"},{"start":511.631,"end":529.965,"text":"我們已經報到已經報到了絕大部分但是還有一個是特考特考的部分是11月11月就會補足好謝謝拜託盡快補足來把這個邊境的這個安檢的部分再加強那最後我再請這個關務署的部分"},{"start":531.889,"end":551.081,"text":"好 關武署那剛剛大家都講說查緝都沒有問題那我還是希望說第一個人力要補足那我在請教的時候最近新聞也在提說現在在夜市販賣很多這個國外包含大陸相關的一些零食它是沒有貼這個繁體標示可能是走私入境的一個部分"},{"start":551.641,"end":575.419,"text":"那就關務署而言你認為這麼像現在很多在夜市大量的大陸的零食算不算是走私的一部分那這些部分會不會有藏有這個豬肉尤其是疫區的豬肉那這些來路不明的食品那會不會成為防疫的破口請關務署回答是 報告委員現在這個食品的部分6公斤以下個人是可以帶進來自用的"},{"start":575.939,"end":591.735,"text":"是不是有走私的行為因為如果只有6公斤以下那為什麼會產生這麼大量的在夜市上販售的情形你們要怎麼去檢查這些問題那這種可能的情形有時候可能是小山洞這邊用螞蟻搬家的方式一個人經常進出這個國境"},{"start":593.346,"end":619.225,"text":"一個人6公斤那有可能慢慢的就累積多了但是他限於要自用不能到市場上去販賣到市場販賣是違反規定的那你們現在有什麼加強的一個查緝的措施嗎當然肉品是不行含肉的豬肉製品當然都不能所以現在都沒有含肉的製品不含肉的食品是一個人有6公斤的限制可以帶進來"},{"start":620.748,"end":644.439,"text":"那後市場的查緝的話可能要多仰賴這個我們相關的警察還有其他的單位來協助因為海關就是通商口岸的邊境的把守好 謝謝那今天本席最後還是要拜託我們各單位的長官第一個人力的部分要再多補強那第二個就是各部會跨部會的協調再拜託一下我們邊境的安檢跟防疫謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時33分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，早。有請內政部馬政次、警政署張署長、海委會管主委以及關務署的彭署長。"],["主席：林副司長、張署長、管主委，還有關務署彭署長，有請。"],["張委員智倫：各位長官，大家早。今天為什麼要請各個單位的長官大家一起到這邊，特別是剛剛我們蘇委員質詢時也非常義憤填膺，為什麼？因為非洲豬瘟臺灣已經防疫7年成功了，今年5月29號臺灣也獲得國際衛生組織的獎章，正式列為非疫區，想不到在5個月後的今天，今天10月29號我們必須要這邊質詢請教各位官員，為什麼臺灣會發生首例非洲豬瘟？而且目前來講，就像剛剛在討論的，現在還在努力的防堵。","當然，就我們國家而言，防堵病毒入侵不只是以國內防疫為主，強化邊境檢疫，共同守住動物健康的防線更是非常重要。尤其是嚴格的邊境檢疫策略扮演關鍵的角色，作為杜絕疾病於境外的第一道防線，不管是機場、港口、郵局這些通路，都要強化查驗以防止動物及其產品的非法輸入。第一個，我想要請問我們各單位的長官，現在有沒有查出非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是在哪裡？是不是請各單位主管簡單說明一下？","先有請內政部馬次長，請問有查到現在非洲豬瘟的防疫破口是哪裡嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們航警局配合各個單位執行邊境查驗，從110年到現在我們總共查了1,593件，也查扣了兩千多公斤，這裡面我們有陽性的件數……"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。所以馬次長認為您這邊是百分之百防疫沒有問題？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們現在這個部分執行的強度非常高，旅客非法攜帶的部分還是我們查緝的重點，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。","接下來請海委會管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡署在岸際豬屍的部分大概成功攔阻20個案例，我們採取的是百分之百都當作非洲豬瘟來處理，這個部分是百分之百的。"],["張委員智倫：好，百分之百！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以179次只有20次是陽性，159次我們不認為那個是做白工，因為有必要！我們就是當作有可能，所以我們第一時間防護衣穿著就衝出去，這個是海巡的做法，以上報告。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝管主委。","接下來請張署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們的邊境管制最主要是機場跟港口，由我們的航空警察局協助關務署針對入境旅客，臺灣機場的部分就是對於入境的行李配合海關做這樣的檢視。另外，旅客隨手攜帶的部分，目前是由防檢署對於疫區來的有專線在做檢查。這是有歷史的變革，原先在108年的時候內政部是有支援防檢署，是專案在看，但108年7月以後就回歸給關務署做。"],["張委員智倫：他們有請保全大隊就對了？"],["張署長榮興：對，所以這個部分的行李就移給他們來做，其實非洲豬瘟的檢查是非常嚴謹的。另外就是剛剛我們政次也提過，從111年到目前為止查驗的狀況大概有這樣的績效，至於港口的部分，則是由港務警察總隊配合海關還有檢疫單位一起執行。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長。","請關務署。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這六、七年來海關一向以高標準、高規格、高警覺來防杜非洲豬瘟，都沒有鬆懈，政策也都沒有改變過，我們會繼續嚴查非洲豬瘟加強力道。這幾年來也查獲了一萬三千五百多件，都移送防檢署去做裁罰，以上。"],["張委員智倫：剛剛聽完我們所有邊境防疫的長官回復後，我有幾個問題想要請問。第一個，我們先請內政部馬次長。馬次長，就我這邊得知，有關於航警局的部分，我這邊有收到線索，航警局有人力協助貨物進出口，負責非洲豬瘟的查驗，我這邊有得到消息，只是我還沒有拿到確切的數字，聽說航警局的部分人力是吃緊的，很多人力被調到其他單位，比如說保二的關鍵基礎設施，請問有沒有這樣的情形？"],["張署長榮興：沒有這個問題！我們對於保二的移撥都是要填選志願的，所以航空的安檢大隊警力現在是充足的。"],["張委員智倫：那我再請問一下，這幾年的人數是不是有逐年下降？"],["張署長榮興：目前的缺額大概就是兩百多人，在今年的10月13日有再補54人，安檢大隊對於出境或入境的警力執行，目前是沒有問題的。"],["張委員智倫：好，就是航警局現在是配合安檢大隊？"],["張署長榮興：安檢大隊現在警力是沒問題的。"],["張委員智倫：因為我還沒有要到確切的數字，可是就我得知的情況是安檢大隊的人力是有逐年短少，我收到的消息是有被派到保二的關鍵基礎設施，所以這邊拜託署長，會後是不是可以提供我們相關的數據？"],["張署長榮興：好，會後再提供相關的數據資料。"],["張委員智倫：如果邊境查緝非洲豬瘟的或者是毒品的人數，尤其在入境檢查貨物的部分人力有減少，請儘速補齊，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。","第二個請管主委。主委好，請問一下你們現在的海巡人員，剛剛你特別講到在岸邊查緝疑似走私船隻的時候，你們的人力是否足夠？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，確實我們在海上的人力今年上半年有一個短期間的落差，因為畢業的同學考完試，然後要進來服務的中間有一個落差。"],["張委員智倫：為什麼我今天問這些問題，其實就是我們的邊境防疫，大家都很辛苦，我知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分完全沒有問題，這個問題我們只要發現……"],["張委員智倫：人力不足，為什麼查緝上會沒有問題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：關於這個部分，我們只要發現，到目前為止我們是百分之百都處理的。"],["張委員智倫：對，這就是我要講的，尤其在海巡的部分，我也收到海巡人員給我的一些小建議，他們說雖然是百分之百的查緝，可是查緝的時間跟查緝的精準度上，如果只有一、兩個人去查的話，漁民會覺得查很久，他們會不耐煩，造成查緝人員的一些心理壓力。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員說的是安檢。"],["張委員智倫：對，安檢的人員。所以我的意思是如果你們人力不足，還是需要拜託你們把人力稍微補齊一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們下半年會把同學畢業，經過考試、訓練完畢以後，他們就位之後上半年離職的數字，下半年都補足了。"],["張委員智倫：所以什麼時候會補足？"],["管主任委員碧玲：已經報到了絕大部分，但是還有一個是特考，特考的部分是11月，11月就會補足。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，拜託儘快補足，把邊境安檢的部分再加強。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["張委員智倫：最後我再請關務署。剛剛大家都講查緝沒有問題，我還是希望，第一個，人力要補足。我再請教，最近新聞報導現在夜市販賣很多國外包含大陸相關的一些零食，它並沒有貼繁體標示，可能是走私入境的。就關務署而言，你認為現在夜市大量的大陸零食算不算是走私的一部分？這些部分會不會藏有豬肉，尤其是疫區的豬肉？這些來路不明的食品會不會成為防疫的破口？請關務署回答。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，現在食品的部分，6公斤以下個人是可以帶進來自用，可能有一些……"],["張委員智倫：是不是有走私的行為？因為如果只有6公斤以下，那為什麼會產生這麼大量在夜市上販售的情形？你們要怎麼去檢查這些問題？"],["彭署長英偉：這種情形有時候可能是小三通這邊用螞蟻搬家的方式，一個人經常進出國境，一個人6公斤，有可能慢慢地就累積多了，但是這限於要自用，不能到市場上去販賣，到市場販賣是違反規定的。"],["張委員智倫：那你們現在有什麼加強的查緝措施嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：當然肉品是不行，含肉的豬肉製品當然都不能進口。"],["張委員智倫：所以現在都沒有含肉的製品？"],["彭署長英偉：不含肉的食品是一個人有6公斤的限制可以帶進來，後市場查緝的話可能要多仰賴相關的警察還有其他單位來協助，因為海關就是通商口岸的邊境把守。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。今天本席最後還是要拜託各單位長官，第一個，人力的部分要再多補強。第二個，就是各部會跨部會的協調，再拜託一下我們的邊境安檢跟防疫。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","下一位請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5188f946b4f2df64c9198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f8b5c004b5ca1c9ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:21:45 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署長我想我們防疫是全國的事情不分中央跟地方那我們在這七年來我們把非洲豬瘟其實是守得很好一直主決於境外直到今日所以做得好的事情好的防疫要能夠持續為是只有兩個嘛第一個就是做得好的動作持續"},{"start":47.765,"end":67.916,"text":"做不好有洞的地方就補洞精準的把漏洞找出來把它補齊這才是防疫能夠持續的方式署長完全同意嘛對不對完全同意嘛好那所以我們今天在此刻10月的現在發生了爆發第一起非洲豬瘟在國內這樣的狀況我們這個現在的狀況你到底他的洞在哪裡是邊境要加嚴嗎"},{"start":75.16,"end":78.261,"text":"還是是在境內要來阻絕呢我認為其實我們應該現在要處理的是國內到底會不會這個案件擴大這才是現在的重中之重不然的話你國內如果大爆發你邊境再怎麼防堵其實我們就整個豬場所有的養豬事業都已經去料料了啊"},{"start":95.985,"end":102.229,"text":"這農民都這樣 豬農都這樣說了嘛 對不對所以我們的重中之重應該是放在國內現在要查清楚署長應該也同意吧防疫視同作戰嘛 要精準的了解戰場才知道資源現在要怎麼配置嘛好 所以我今天沒有要跟你談邊境防疫的這個管制啊那我們現在就來談今天本件個案來 我們現在看嘛其實這一件非洲豬瘟的時序表"},{"start":124.241,"end":126.562,"text":"10月10號豬隻死亡個案出現而且據現在的疫調通報是一次是報了20頭豬超過了這個300頭豬的這個豬場超過了他的百分之百分之相當多了嘛百分之將近10了啊百分之7、8、2吧對不對"},{"start":142.694,"end":148.436,"text":"好接下來有獸醫師到場單位採檢然後10月20號的時候又有另外的獸醫師到現場才終於採檢署長我想問的是說其實在這個部分我們到底誰可以採檢採檢的要件到底是哪裡因為這就是整個案件的第一步第一個洞就是出現在這裡署長你同意吧對不對好那我問你什麼時候粉件什麼時候可以採檢什麼時候應該要採檢"},{"start":170.603,"end":190.438,"text":"報告委員本件有異常嗎300頭豬的豬場一次死了20頭豬這是異常嗎我跟委員來做報告14號之前那這個他有這個異常的部分大概是5次從10月1號你就告訴我啦你就用 你是專家嘛你就很簡單一句話告訴我一個300頭豬的豬場通報了你我今天死了20頭豬"},{"start":197.523,"end":203.146,"text":"超過百分之五這樣算不算異常 是算不算 有有嘛 算異常嘛好 所以算異常那應不應該採檢因為現在其實坊間的徵典竟然變成是說啊 我們沒有典型的症狀所以無法強制採檢現在的徵典變成是這樣啊所以我偏查所有的法規喔能不能夠採檢其實就是只有這條規定嘛"},{"start":222.495,"end":236.882,"text":"就是在動物傳染病防治條例的第17條啊受醫師或受醫佐醫執行業務發現動物罹患 罹患或可能感染罹患或可能感染的時候就應於24小時內向當地當地的動物防疫機關報告而動物防疫機關接到報告的時候是應立即為必要之處置"},{"start":247.748,"end":253.551,"text":"署長 我採用的這條法規有問題嗎這個是甲類 甲類的傳染病一定要照這樣來做通報但如果是一般的疾病就不是這樣子好 那所以一般它是不是甲類還是一般就完全取決於現場獸醫師的判斷嗎對 假設說我們牧場它有一般的都有特約的獸醫師那認為這個有疑似 署長那他就要通知台中的動保處是台中的動保處嘛 當地嘛對不對就要通知台中的動保處 對"},{"start":276.443,"end":286.555,"text":"然後去現場來 署長 那我們現在看下面啦齁 我給你看其他縣市的做法啦其他縣市 這些也通通都是已經知道是假類了嗎這些案件都知道是假類所以才去採檢嗎"},{"start":293.263,"end":317.019,"text":"只要有棄置河邊 我棄置河邊我就知道它是甲類了喔我排泄物有異樣了 我當場採檢也是因為我知道它是甲類了嗎在一隻海漂豬來 我看著它我就知道說喔這甲類所以我應該要採檢是這樣嗎海漂豬的部分我們已經跟海巡共同第一時間就處理對嘛 那前面那個呢 第一個2018年的時候花蓮六隻豬被棄置在河邊呢我眼睛看到它我就知道是甲類了嗎"},{"start":319.04,"end":326.904,"text":"在我們的海邊簡單講就是有沒有警覺性嘛我們新北市在有養豬場排泄物異樣的時候就可以當場採檢了啊對不對所以其實就是這一個地方到底有沒有警覺性它是不是傳染病我當然是要驗了以後我才知道是什麼狀況啊不是是這樣嗎海漂豬的處理師每一屆一定印"},{"start":345.652,"end":367.159,"text":"我這裡又不是只有海漂豬而已這個這個所列出來的目前的這個大概都是跟我們跟海巡一起處理的海漂豬那我第一項是嗎我第二項是嗎對河邊也是淡水養豬場也是海漂豬喔河口的地方也是海邊河邊我們一律都一個標準就是一定驗這個標準一定是特別的高我本來齁在這個台上"},{"start":369.66,"end":372.661,"text":"要告訴你的就是說我們現在的標準就是應該要重演嘛所以我們的警覺性要提高嘛所以接下來的話任何有豬隻異常的話一個 你剛剛都已經說了一個三百頭豬的養豬場二十頭豬 二十頭豬能夠一次性死亡這個如果還比較異常的話"},{"start":392.45,"end":403.117,"text":"我不曉得什麼才叫做異常啦連一般人我不是專家我都知道這是異常了所以不用採檢嗎這麼簡單的道理對不對大家在這種防範防成這樣今天這麼多部會要來說邊境加嚴管理結果你一個獸醫師到現場看20頭豬超過了7%的死亡率你不用採檢你不用通報有這種事情那為什麼我們這麼多單位要在這邊這麼嚴格的防疫"},{"start":420.487,"end":425.109,"text":"不是就這樣嗎好 你現在作為署長我已經給你這個樓梯了你竟然還在說你不加嚴我不能理解我真的不能理解報告委員我可能說沒清楚其實都已經加嚴了那之前的部分只有分各部分的處理對 加嚴 已經有加嚴了我覺得這樣我問不下去了抱歉 抱歉"},{"start":446.243,"end":457.347,"text":"我們省非洲蘇溫熟了7年是這是在蘇院長的時候就已經嚴格去做執行到現在沒有變沒有變還是要更加你現在告訴我說300頭豬的豬場有一次20頭豬死亡是異常"},{"start":462.13,"end":484.535,"text":"不用通報 不用採檢 不用加嚴未來不用再更嚴格的處理都要所以現在的動作一切是正常的不是 他不是正常 他是異常他絕對要有後續的處理那所以呢所以後續的處理台中市的動保處要回報給我們那他到底是有去檢查法事你知道嗎如果我們的傳染期喔我們的潛伏期是15天我們現在的第一頭豬死亡的時間是10月10號"},{"start":491.933,"end":492.835,"text":"對 我是10月10號他才通知他10月9號就可能有狀況了10月10號以前的豬有出去了嗎"},{"start":500.687,"end":523.273,"text":"你也不知道啊 因為台中市政府給你的三次疫調所以台中市政府的疫調署長 我事實上我跟你們要報告說現在豬到底死亡幾頭你們沒有報告給我耶在我們的畫廠你沒有報告給我蘇巧惠辦公室耶好 那我們你現在有嗎 你現在在被詢台中說嘛9月1號起一直到我們的10月18號你這次本件到底已經現在目前為止死了多少頭豬我們的畫廠的數字顯示9月1號起到10月"},{"start":527.794,"end":530.116,"text":"13號的抽驗是106頭這數字誰給你的 到21號但是這是我們的化智廠的不是 是我們的這個系統的警示但現在就是台中市政府只回報給我們78頭所以我們現在要求他們"},{"start":546.326,"end":548.369,"text":"落差在哪裡 對啊所以要求台中市政府把疫調這個裡面要釐清楚到底死亡的頭數是多少頭那到目前為止還他們所提出來的我對於你今天的這個回答我非常的不滿意啦好我檢討"},{"start":562.625,"end":565.626,"text":"我非常的不滿意我們已經發生了這麼多天全國人民驚慌產業界消費者大家都陰陰的期盼就是應該要有一套東西可以拿出來告訴我們說現在有一個洞出現了而我明確的知道洞在哪裡我接下來要怎麼補結果你現在沒有辦法在備詢台上面一次告訴我"},{"start":586.974,"end":595.861,"text":"我拍頭就已經說了防疫是中央跟地方的事情我們沒有要推責但是該是誰的責任動在哪裡大家講清楚嘛這哪有什麼黨派之分這哪有中央跟地方之分所以你該講的就應該在這裡講出來你到底是在擔心什麼東西如果是台中市政府沒有資訊給你在這裡講出來嘛"},{"start":608.231,"end":631.651,"text":"我相信其他的委員 各縣市的都一樣擔心啊我們已經在應變中心跟應變所的會議一再要求台中市政府要表議調也就是這些包括來源 包括死亡投訴包括三年單的部分所以你有東西了嗎你有東西了嗎 你現在有資料了嗎昨天的時候 他們昨天下午三點那你對於台中市政府不給你資料所以你現在沒有辦法在這裡回答委員他們已經 做什麼已經給我們 昨天下午三點給我們那資料是準確的嗎11點"},{"start":636.935,"end":641.263,"text":"已經送我們的專家委員會要針對他的報告 完整報告做審視"},{"start":642.938,"end":646.76,"text":"所以在審視之前你也不知道那是不是正確的嗎有 昨天已經初步初步的這個檢報那個什麼他的那個疫調報告已經有回應他一些意見要求他再詳細的補充說明我覺得我在立法院問政這樣十年我想我的品質應該是還受到肯定如果連我現在在這裡都聽不懂你在說什麼的話那難怪國人聽不懂這個報告啦好 對不起"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時21分）謝謝主席，我想請防疫檢疫署杜麗華署長。","署長好。署長，我想我們防疫是全國的事情、不分中央跟地方，我們在這7年來把非洲豬瘟守得很好，一直阻絕於境外直到今日，所以做得好的事情、好的防疫要能夠持續維持只有兩個，第一個就是做得好的動作持續，做不好、有洞的地方就補洞，精準的把漏洞找出來、把它補齊，這才是防疫能夠持續的方式，署長完全同意嘛，對不對？完全同意嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：完全同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們今天、在此刻10月的現在爆發第一起非洲豬瘟在國內這樣的狀況，我們現在的狀況到底洞在哪裡？是邊境要加嚴嗎？還是境內要阻絕呢？我認為我們現在應該要處理的是國內這個案件到底會不會擴大，這才是現在的重中之重！不然國內如果大爆發，邊境再怎麼防堵，其實我們整個豬場、所有的養豬事業都已經「去了了」啦！豬農都這樣說了嘛，對不對？所以我們的重中之重應該是放在國內現在要查清楚，署長應該也同意吧？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：防疫視同作戰，要精準地了解戰場才知道資源現在要怎麼配置，所以我今天沒有要跟你談邊境防疫的管制，我們現在就來談本件個案。我們先來看關於這一件非洲豬瘟的時序表，10月10號豬隻死亡個案出現，而且據現在的疫調通報，一次報了20頭豬，在這個300頭豬的豬場超過了相當高的比例，將近10%，7%、8%了，對不對？接下來有獸醫師到場但未採檢，然後10月20號又有另外的獸醫師到現場才終於採檢！署長，我想問的是，在這個部分到底誰可以採檢？採檢的要件到底是什麼？因為這就是整個案件的第一步，第一個洞就是出現在這裡，署長，你同意吧，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那我問你，本件什麼時候可以採檢、什麼時候應該要採檢？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員……"],["蘇委員巧慧：本件有異常嗎？300頭豬的豬場一次死了20頭豬，這是異常嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，14號之前它有異常的部分大概是5次，從10月1號……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你就告訴我啦，你是專家嘛，你就很簡單一句話告訴我，一個300頭豬的豬場通報你，我今天死了20頭豬，超過百分之五，這樣算不算異常？"],["杜署長麗華：是，所以……"],["蘇委員巧慧：算不算？"],["杜署長麗華：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有嘛，算異常啦！所以算異常，那應不應該採檢？因為現在坊間的爭點竟然變成是：我們沒有典型的症狀，所以無法強制採檢，現在的爭點變成是這樣了。署長，我遍查所有的法規，能不能夠採檢其實就只有這條規定嘛，就是動物傳染病防治條例第十七條，獸醫師或獸醫佐於執行業務時，發現動物罹患、疑患或可能感染，疑患或可能感染的時候就應於24小時內向當地的動物防疫機關報告，而動物防疫機關接到報告的時候應立即為必要之處置。署長，我採用的這條法規有問題嗎？還有沒有其他法規？"],["杜署長麗華：這個是甲類，甲類的傳染病一定要照這樣來做通報，但如果是一般的疾病就不是這樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以是不是甲類還是一般傳染病就完全取決於現場獸醫師的判斷嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對。假設牧場一般都有特約的獸醫師，那認為這個有疑似，那他就要通知臺中的動保處……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，是臺中的動保處，當地嘛，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：就要通知臺中的動保處，對，然後要去現場查核。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我們現在看下面的簡報，我給你看其他縣市的做法，其他縣市這些案例也通通都已經知道是甲類了嘛？這些案件都知道是甲類，所以才去採檢嗎？只要棄置河邊，棄置河邊我就知道它是甲類了喔？排泄物有異樣了，我當場採檢，也是因為我知道它是甲類了嘛？這一隻海漂豬來，我看著牠就知道說這是甲類，所以我應該要採檢，是這樣嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，在海漂豬的部分，我們已經跟海巡共同第一時間就處理……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對嘛，那前面2018年的時候，花蓮6隻豬被棄置在河邊呢？我眼睛看到牠，我就知道是甲類了嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對，這也是海漂豬。不是，報告委員，在我們的海邊的一定是高規格的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：簡單講就是有沒有警覺性嘛！我們新北市在養豬場排泄物有異樣的時候就可以當場採檢了啊，對不對？所以其實就是這一個地方到底有沒有警覺性，它是不是某類的傳染病，我當然要驗了以後才知道是什麼狀況啊，不是這樣嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：海漂豬的處理是每一件一定驗……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我這裡舉的又不是只有海漂豬而已。"],["杜署長麗華：目前簡報上所列出來的案例，大概都是我們跟海巡一起處理的海漂豬。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那我列的第一項是嗎？第二項是嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對，河邊也是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：淡水的養豬場也是海漂豬喔？"],["杜署長麗華：河邊，因為在河口的地方也是，海邊、河邊我們一律都一個標準，就是一定驗，這個標準一定是特別的高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我本來在這個臺上要告訴你的就是，我們現在的標準應該要從嚴嘛，我們的警覺性要提高嘛，所以接下來有任何豬隻異常的話，你剛剛都已經說了，一個300頭豬的養豬場，20頭豬、20頭豬能夠一次性死亡，這個如果還不叫異常的話，那我不曉得什麼才叫做異常啦。連一般人，我不是專家，我都知道這是異常了，所以不用採檢嗎？這麼簡單的道理，對不對？大家這種防範防成這樣，今天這麼多部會要來說邊境加嚴管理，結果一個獸醫師到現場看20頭豬，超過了百分之七的死亡率，不用採檢、不用通報，有這種事情？那為什麼我們這麼多單位要在這邊這麼嚴格的防疫，不是這樣嗎？好。你現在作為署長，我已經給你這個樓梯了，你竟然還在說你不加嚴，我不能理解耶！我不能理解耶！我真的不能理解！"],["杜署長麗華：有加嚴、有加嚴，對不起，報告委員，我可能沒說清楚，其實都已經加嚴了，那之前的部分是有分各部會在處理……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！你今天就已經在這裡……"],["杜署長麗華：對，加嚴，已經有加嚴了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得這樣我問不下去了。"],["杜署長麗華：抱歉、抱歉，所有異常都有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們守非洲豬瘟守了7年……"],["杜署長麗華：是，這是在蘇院長的時候就已經嚴格去執行，到現在沒有變、沒有變，還是要更加嚴……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你現在告訴我說，300頭豬的豬場一次有20頭豬死亡……"],["杜署長麗華：是異常。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不用通報、不用採檢、不用加嚴，未來不用再更嚴格的處理？"],["杜署長麗華：要、要、都要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以現在的動作一切是正常的？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，不是正常，它是異常，他絕對要有後續的處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那所以呢？"],["杜署長麗華：所以後續的處理，臺中市的動保處要回報給我們，他到底是有去現場訪視……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，你知道嗎？如果我們的傳染期，我們的潛伏期是15天……"],["杜署長麗華：15天，對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在第一頭豬死亡的時間是10月10號，還是10月10號他才通知？10月9號可能就有狀況了，10月10號以前的豬有出去了嗎？你也不知道啊！因為臺中市政府給你的三次疫調……"],["杜署長麗華：所以臺中市政府的疫調……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，事實上我跟你們要報告，現在豬到底死亡幾頭，你們沒有報告給我耶。"],["杜署長麗華：在我們的話……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你沒有報告給我蘇巧慧辦公室耶！"],["杜署長麗華：好，那我們待會……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你現在有嗎？你現在備詢臺上說嘛。"],["杜署長麗華：有，我們有，9月1號起一直到10月13號是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這次本件目前為止到底已經死了多少頭豬？"],["杜署長麗華：我們化製廠的數字顯示，9月1號起到10月13號的抽驗是106頭，但……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個數字誰給你的？"],["杜署長麗華：到21號，但這是我們化製廠的，不是，是我們系統的警示，但現在就是臺中市政府只回報給我們78頭，所以我們現在回電要求他們在疫調裡面……"],["蘇委員巧慧：落差在哪裡？落差在哪裡？對啊！"],["杜署長麗華：對，所以要求臺中市政府要把疫調這部分釐清楚，到底死亡的頭數是多少頭，到目前為止，他們所提出來的資料還沒有明確……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我對於你今天的這個回答，我非常的不滿意。"],["杜署長麗華：好，我檢討。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我非常的不滿意。"],["杜署長麗華：是，我檢討。"],["蘇委員巧慧：事情已經發生了這麼多天，全國人民驚慌，產業界、消費者大家都殷殷的期盼，就是應該要有一套東西可以拿出來告訴我們說，現在有一個洞出現了，而我明確的知道洞在哪裡，我接下來要怎麼補……"],["杜署長麗華：是，都有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：結果你現在沒有辦法在備詢臺上面一次性的告訴我，我開頭就已經說了，防疫是中央跟地方的事情，我們沒有要推責，但是該是誰的責任，洞在哪裡，大家講清楚嘛！這哪有什麼黨派之分，這哪有中央跟地方之分……"],["杜署長麗華：沒有、沒有、沒有，完全……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你該講的就應該在這裡講出來，你到底是在擔心什麼東西？"],["杜署長麗華：沒有，我沒有擔心……"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果是臺中市政府沒有資訊給你，在這裡講出來嘛！我相信其他的委員，各縣市的都一樣擔心啊。"],["杜署長麗華：我們已經在應變中心跟應變所的會議，一再要求臺中市政府要把疫調，也就是這一些包括來源、包括死亡頭數、包括三聯單的部分以及他的廚餘……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你有東西了嗎？你有東西了嗎？你現在有資料了嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：對，昨天的時候，他們昨天下午三點……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你對於臺中市政府不給你資料，所以你現在沒有辦法在這裡回答委員，你有做什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：沒有，他們已經在昨天下午三點給我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那資料是準確的嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：今天早上11點已經送我們的專家委員會，要針對他的完整報告做審視。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在審視之前，你也不知道那是不是正確的嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：有，昨天初步針對他的疫調報告已經有回應一些意見，要求他再詳細的補充說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得我在立法院問政10年，我想我的品質應該是還受到肯定……"],["杜署長麗華：是、是、是，我們也……"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果連我現在在這裡都聽不懂你在說什麼的話，那難怪國人聽不懂這個報告啦！"],["杜署長麗華：好，對不起。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢，張委員有請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004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董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議"},{"start":51.004,"end":71.807,"text":"然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候"},{"start":72.728,"end":95.261,"text":"那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來"},{"start":96.394,"end":124.339,"text":"我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議"},{"start":125.669,"end":152.558,"text":"後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論"},{"start":153.638,"end":179.916,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中"},{"start":181.357,"end":198.3,"text":"那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚"},{"start":198.88,"end":222.873,"text":"我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人"},{"start":224.636,"end":233.552,"text":"因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源"},{"start":235.233,"end":262.444,"text":"那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是"},{"start":263.786,"end":288.425,"text":"有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然"},{"start":290.313,"end":311.393,"text":"爛得不得了一樣不能用 一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億"},{"start":314.161,"end":342.265,"text":"那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂"},{"start":342.933,"end":371.109,"text":"報告委員 該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個"},{"start":372.009,"end":397.943,"text":"對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂"},{"start":399.042,"end":421.297,"text":"我看不懂 我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天 給我一分鐘就好了 召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會"},{"start":422.83,"end":443.389,"text":"我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然"},{"start":444.522,"end":467.973,"text":"前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說"},{"start":470.306,"end":490.224,"text":"是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來 部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件"},{"start":497.165,"end":524.692,"text":"不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的"},{"start":526.007,"end":548.06,"text":"其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較"},{"start":549.622,"end":563.028,"text":"也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然"},{"start":565.14,"end":579.194,"text":"這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了"},{"start":580.409,"end":599.115,"text":"強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了 相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會"},{"start":600.936,"end":628.716,"text":"去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局"},{"start":629.897,"end":654.635,"text":"開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車"},{"start":655.555,"end":684.575,"text":"對 後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善"},{"start":685.636,"end":705.151,"text":"部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及"},{"start":706.482,"end":716.201,"text":"那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快"},{"start":718.598,"end":745.144,"text":"真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快"},{"start":746.172,"end":761.133,"text":"我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時11分）謝謝主席。有請交通部部長及臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，董事長好。上一次我請教鄭董事長有關於詐騙廠商靠著政商關係拿標案的事情，受害的行政機關滿多的，涉及臺鐵的是「列控4.0」，我上次有問到答案，之前說還要研議，然後運安會直接說它與安全管理的核心目的不符，臺鐵原來要暫緩推動，可是上一次我問時答說還在研議，變成暫緩推動。我上一次是在去年年底請教鄭董事長，我問為什麼不直接講實話，你說你要回去調查，你調查了以後，昨天傍晚或晚上終於把報告交來，可能是臺鐵同仁知道你今天要來這邊備詢，如果報告還沒交來的話，我一定會在這邊請教董事長，所以同仁很辛苦，昨天下午或晚上終於把報告趕出來。我看完報告，我只想跟董事長分享一個心得。董事長，我相信你在各方面的經歷都很豐富，中文也是非常嫻熟，董事長，你可以回去看一下，我老實說，臺鐵給我的這份報告，我完全看不懂，我完全看不懂，前面說後續要研議，後面說要暫緩推動，所以我說就是前後矛盾，說明不實，你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次，然後最後的結論是沒有說明不實。董事長，這個報告你可以回去再看一下，因為我今天質詢的時間很珍貴，我沒有要在這邊跟董事長爭論。"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告一下這個來由，沒錯，在113年12月的時候，安全委員會決議，按照委員的意見做後續研議，到了今年4月委員在質詢臺鐵的時候，那時候的代理董事長就是伍勝園次長，這個案子還是在研議中、研究中。到了6月25日我上任以後，你在這邊問我，要把這個事情在兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告，我那時候就看整個資料，包括把去年12月整個委員會的資料都拿來看，把來龍去脈弄清楚，我覺得這個案子不應該再繼續做，所以我就說這時候應該暫緩推動，整個案子不再推動，是我那時候做的決定，所以跟委員報告，大概是這樣的一個情況。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。董事長，說明經過就好了，因為我之前有講過，臺鐵在某個程度上也是被害人，因為有大官帶著廠商去臺鐵，要臺鐵搞這個事情，結果搞了半天以後，浪費國家一堆資源，臺鐵也因此受害，確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義的計畫上就好，這個計畫除了肥了廠商以外，還浪費國家幾千萬，浪費臺鐵一堆人力、時間、物力，是毫無任何意義的計畫。董事長，之前的事情，我不會歸咎你，你做了這個決斷，停止就好了，但是有一些責任我們還是要講清楚。臺鐵董事長可以請回了。","接下來請教部長，相同的一個惡質廠商標到桃園第三航廈的工程，它跟成運汽車合作，分包商是理立，但是主要核心的自駕系統是由成運汽車負責，兩個廠商當初一起去投標，投完標了以後，果不其然，爛得不得了，一樣不能用，造成桃園機場第三航廈整個工程延誤就已經很嚴重了，除了延誤很嚴重以外，造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛，到現在，造成的損害總共超過一億，這不能慷納稅人之慨，惡質的廠商造成第三航廈工程的延誤，老實說，納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價，因此，所造成的金錢損失當然是要要回來。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：我一直在追查，桃機給我的回復是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式，我就搞不懂了，有什麼好研議的，現在是廠商不賠嗎？我有點搞不懂。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，該追訴的部分，我們一定會追訴，但我覺得這件事情，第一，桃機要先去核算出實際上損失的金額，現在是1億983萬。"],["黃委員國昌：算出來了。"],["陳部長世凱：第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式談它願不願意賠。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長世凱：第二步，如果它不願意賠，我們當然就要走司法的追訴。"],["黃委員國昌：現在對方願不願意賠？"],["陳部長世凱：目前他們還在溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請部長回去以後指示桃機，書面回復我，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，對方要不要賠？第二個，錢什麼時候要追討回來？其實我只要這兩個答案，我們在國會監督，不希望該討回來的錢，因為特殊的廠商而不討回來，這樣子不好。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：把時間講清楚，我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案，一方面拿政府的標案，一方面賺政府的錢，該賠給政府的不賠，我看不懂。我們的政府很慷慨、很有錢嗎？怎麼會讓它這樣子搞？","第三個事情，因為這件事情人命關天，所以給我1分鐘就好了，召委，不好意思。國道緩撞車事故頻傳，我為什麼說緩撞車事故頻傳？因為那一天我去臺中開會，開完會以後，我就回來臺北，結果我那天真的差一點在高速公路上發生車禍，我不是開玩笑的，只差一公尺，然後我坐在那邊看，想了非常久，這真的是太危險了，因為內側的車道，突然前面有一台車切到外側車道，突然有一個燈亮了，前面的車切出去，我煞車也要切出去，切不出去，差點就撞上，我才發現裡面原來有工程車要施工，有工程車要施工是必然會發生的事情。我那天晚上回到家以後，餘悸猶存，我就一直在思考是我的感覺比較特殊，還是這種事故發生過很多次，所以我就去查了，結果我發現這種移動性內車道施工的事故完全就是我所遇到的狀況。部長，看一下數字，兩年間有126件，現在不是1件，不是2件，不是個位數，是126件，跟其他型態的一比較，內側車道的緩撞車發生事故非常非常頻繁，我看到這個數字，非常驚訝，因為這個數字一對比，一看就知道了，移動性內車道施工的緩撞車被車撞上的數字高於其他類型，其他類型的事故幾乎都是個位數，了不起十幾件，這個是126件，這後面一定有原因，所以我又繼續去查之前有沒有類似的，是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統，沒有認真好好開車，所以才會撞上去？但是我看了分析的比較，也不是這個狀況，因為有很多駕駛沒有用輔助駕車系統，是真人在開的，跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣，比例非常非常高，在這樣的情況之下，顯然這絕對不是個案，這一定是系統性的因素。","我把相關的規範全部都看完了以後，最後看到運安會的建議，運安會也注意到這件事情，提出建議強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施布設方式。你們現在布置的方式，我在圖上面顯現出來了，相關的規範我大概都看了，但問題是，運安會參酌外國在內側車道布置移動性車輛施工的方式以後，提出具體的建議，說我們目前交通管制設施布置的方式及施工的警示必須更周延，以利駕駛人用路的安全。我只想問一件事，依照運安會的建議，高公局開始研議改善措施了沒有？還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好類似，我自己也有開車，在高速公路上面，我也看到同樣的狀況，數據上我們也有研析過，我們當時設置緩撞車，是為了要保護前面的施工人員，因為過去施工人員……"],["黃委員國昌：結果都撞到緩撞車。"],["陳部長世凱：對，後來又撞到緩撞車。也跟委員報告，時常有這種事故是非常不好的，而且是必須要避免的，所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了，我自己開車也遇到這個狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長世凱：大概兩、三個月之內，我跟高公局局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善，這個部分我們已經在做了，就是說怎麼讓緩撞車更明顯，讓大家很遠就看得到，決定該停車或該換道，目前以我自己開車的經驗，我覺得緩撞車不夠明顯，這個部分我們先來改善。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你分享一個經驗，因為時間的關係，所以我沒有放影片，那天的行車記錄器影片我擷取下來了，特別是當前面有一台車的時候，那台車駕駛發現前面有台緩撞車，他就會趕快切車道切出去，等到他切出去，在他後面的你看到緩撞車的時候，真的很有可能會來不及。不過，部長願意承認這個問題的存在，也說高公局現在正在研議，這個就是我質詢的目的，但是我拜託高公局，拜託、拜託，趕快，真的趕快。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我也覺得這個問題很重要。"],["黃委員國昌：類似的事情，我相信每天都在發生，特別是晚上，我不希望造成更多的傷亡。"],["陳部長世凱：我們在幾個月前就已經啟動，在討論這件事情了，大概再兩、三個月我們就會有結論。"],["黃委員國昌：好。運安會按照外國的方式給了具體的建議，該改的規範，該改善的布建方式，就要趕快做，我不希望這件事情在完成改善之前有更多無辜的人因此傷亡，再拜託交通部，再拜託高公局，如果可能的話，腳步再加快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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我知道所以這個部分是現在有兩個隧道在那裡對所以1981年的單線的隧道是目前是沒有在使用中是 沒錯談這個部分最主要也就是馬太安溪橋"},{"start":146.391,"end":170.938,"text":"這個橋已經被沖毀了然後現在跟這個河底幾乎是沒有多大的這個落差所以這樣的一個情形之下這個上次我這個陪同院長去這個聽起你們這個公路總局的簡報的時候是你們有另外一個方案"},{"start":172.692,"end":202.252,"text":"這個部分這個也提供給交通部公路總局去參考這個是河底隧道的公路隧道的可行性這個應該列為一個很重要的一個評估所以這個部分是一個請這個交通部部長跟公路總局的專業人員當然可以跟這個鐵路局"},{"start":203.314,"end":227.806,"text":"到底他那個198幾年那個44年前蓋的那個是不是還可以用所以這個部分都一併去這個善用相關的這些資源好我們看這個宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫本席多次質詢部長還有這個鐵路局這個我也質詢過"},{"start":233.067,"end":259.713,"text":"這個我們國發會國發會這個在8月7號也質詢了國發會的主委要趕快審議報行政院有關華東地區鐵路設置安全改善計畫這個就是因為0403大地震造成從得到核能這段所造成的所以這個部分部長知道進度嗎"},{"start":261.065,"end":283.149,"text":"跟委員報告這個進度是不是我有台鐵公司來這邊說明好不好但是整個安全設施改善我們陸續都在做整體的計畫即便是還沒過但是設施改善的部分我一直有在追蹤明天明天國發會要審議我是不是請陳副總跟您我來說明明天國發會要審議明天要大會所以"},{"start":290.818,"end":308.794,"text":"鐵道級你們要做最好的準備跟說明讓相關的部會不要再有意見就趕快報行政院是 我們也希望可以趕快過這麼小的一個路段這要花那麼久0403到現在對不對"},{"start":313.09,"end":331.816,"text":"這太久了吧我常常舉這個例子部長你已經聽了很多次我常常舉北迴鐵路1973年也是因為颱風然後就當時的省主席就報行政院"},{"start":333.565,"end":355.989,"text":"6年就完工了79.2公里然后16座隧道而且是这些隧道都是用人工挖的人工挖的都是农民跟原住民去挖掘这个隧道的所以这个部分要请这个交通部要请铁路级铁道级"},{"start":357.333,"end":376.431,"text":"明天一定要跟國發會跟相關的部會好好的他們還有意見要把他說服了趕快報行政院明天總經理會到現場去跟他們報告最後這個主席站起來了這個花東第七鐵路雙軌電氣化的計畫"},{"start":380.31,"end":406.242,"text":"這個也是很久了一直在修正一直在修正如果是修正的更好那當然沒有關係但是這個要加速已經核定很久了報告委員這個施工中啦我知道一直都在做只不過我們要再修訂修正計畫是預算有增加然後那個工期的部分這個我都了解我都有過期我的意思說你們現在課由行政院審議中也是要協調啊"},{"start":407.843,"end":430.082,"text":"會啦 我們會去協調但是對於施工沒有任何言論對 我知道所以我的意思是不要影響包括這個南迴鐵路線型改善及平井路段的雙軌化這個部分也是在行政審議中我們都會去溝通也是要做最好的說明去說服好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時3分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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我們需要錄網最後一個問題那Blackpink在上個禮拜在高雄"},{"start":221.191,"end":230.015,"text":"高雄的這個市運組團管站其實在去年高雄市政府捷運局就有跟鐵道局跟交通部來申請就是我們的這個"},{"start":232.425,"end":256.338,"text":"炸藍 炸門的部分那從R17到R24你可以想像4萬人那可能有一半以上的人必須要搭乘捷運那個管控是非常嚴重的那在昨天又發生了一個在都會公園站它有一個落軌的事件然後希望交通部可以趕快來審慎來評估這一個補助能不能趕快讓高雄的這個捷運的這個炸門"},{"start":257.518,"end":268.047,"text":"跟委員報告過去是沒有這樣子的補助案例但是我們可以跟高雄市政府大家來討論看看我也請鐵道局研議看看有沒有這樣的可能性我們在後續來研究好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時58分）謝謝，先有請鐵道局長。"],["主席：鐵道局楊局長請。"],["楊局長正君：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：局長，我最關心的幾件事情，我趕快快速地講一下。高鐵連通道，連通高雄捷運的連通道，上上週史哲董事長在這裡說可能要明年才能動工，請問一下，交通部現在可以解決這個經費的問題嗎？"],["楊局長正君：我跟董事長有做過溝通，我想經費應該不會是執行這個案子的障礙。"],["李委員柏毅：很好，謝謝。","第二個，高雄臺鐵立體化，從新左營站到橋頭這一區一共接近12公里，目前有TSMC跟橋頭糖廠的問題，那我們會增加兩站，包含青埔站跟TSMC，請問一下，這個可行性評估通過之後，接下來的程序鐵道局這邊怎麼準備？"],["楊局長正君：可行性研究如果奉行政院核定，就會由鐵道局接續辦理綜合規劃。"],["李委員柏毅：好。接下來最重要，捷運紫線的可行性評估，因為捷運紫線是我這一任內最重要最重要的工作，我想要請部長上來一下。"],["主席：陳部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，我剛剛講的，臺鐵跟高雄捷運的連通道，還有臺鐵的立體化，然後接下來的捷運紫線，其實都需要交通部的支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員柏毅：捷運紫線它從TSMC、高鐵、橋頭科學園區，還有高雄的幾所大學，包含醫學中心，可以整個連接起來，目前因為高雄市政府還在做可行性評估，我們希望可以跟……"],["陳部長世凱：對，昨天我們交通部有開初審會議。"],["李委員柏毅：我們希望可以跟臺南一樣，可以趕快來核定。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會趕快來……"],["李委員柏毅：雖然財劃法修法讓地方政府多了很多經費，但是對高雄市來講，要用分配的比例來完成捷運紫線是非常非常困難的，部長在上次回應的時候有講到，會依據國家整體分布的狀況、國家整體發展的狀況，可以對高雄有多一點點的支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，跟委員報告，紫線的部分我們全力來趕啦！昨天已經召開初審會議了，後面的會議我們會儘量協助地方政府速度加快。第二，針對捷運未來的發展，我覺得有可能會針對整體的預算去做調整，因為財劃法的因應，我們會針對幾個原則，第一……"],["李委員柏毅：財劃法對高雄是很不公平的，我希望交通部可以多一點支持。"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以對於財政級距比較落後的縣市，我們的補助就會多一點，這是一方面。二方面是針對過去政府曾經補助過捷運建設比較少的，我們會希望多一點，高雄的捷運相對還不算前面，比較算是落後的縣市，所以我們的補助應該會相對多一些。"],["李委員柏毅：對，我們需要路網。","最後一個問題，BLACKPINK上個禮拜在高雄世運主場館站，其實在去年，高雄市政府捷運局就有向鐵道局、交通部來申請，就是我們的柵欄、柵門的部分。從R17到R24，你可以想像，4萬人可能有一半以上的人必須要搭乘捷運，那個管控是非常嚴重的，昨天在都會公園站又發生了落軌事件，我希望交通部可以審慎評估這個補助，能不能趕快讓高雄的捷運設置柵門？"],["陳部長世凱：過去是沒有這樣子的補助案例，但是我們可以跟高雄市政府來討論看看，我會請鐵道局研議有沒有這樣的可能性，我們後續再來研究。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝洪門凱召委 我們請部長來 陳部長請"},{"start":14.476,"end":30.584,"text":"部長好在進入今天的這個專案報告的主題之前我還是很關心這個未來台中市的一個大眾運輸系統那牽涉到的是當然最重要的是捷運那捷運現在綠線"},{"start":33.265,"end":54.581,"text":"營運中藍線要動工那還有的是藍線要延伸到屯區太平那一段我記得在上一屆考察的時候上一個部長李孟彥李部長曾經承諾藍線延伸到屯區太平的這一段希望跟現行的藍線能夠並岸"},{"start":57.463,"end":78.219,"text":"然後分階段施工這個部分我想部長也一定會支持因為我知道這個要先由台中市政府提出他的規劃那我記得台中市政府有提出我只是希望部長交通部這邊可以允諾能夠加快速度來協助第二個就是橘縣橘縣現在的進度如何"},{"start":84.553,"end":105.727,"text":"局長局縣部裡面其實已經轉成到行政院那現在是在補一個促參的審查程序當中好那需要多久的時間以你的經驗這個不會很久因為促參審查目前這些軌道建設案子來看的話通常都沒有這樣子的一個可能性"},{"start":107.271,"end":133.99,"text":"沒有什麼樣的可能性就是民間參與不會有促參的問題但是他們還是要我們補這個跟他講說不會發生OK 好 要講清楚這個蠻快的這個蠻快就可以告訴他們這個話要講清楚那我們希望中央要全力協助因為菊縣它還有往北我們希望延伸到清水還有我們希望從崇德那一邊延伸成一條紅線進豐原"},{"start":136.152,"end":163.144,"text":"那他往南是到霧峰也是屯區那甚至南投也希望能夠延伸到南投草屯之類那這個東西當然是要一步一步但是我希望的中央都能夠協助進度可以快一點有效率不要讓地方政府都認為說中央在卡地方部長這個你應該可以承諾答應中央從來不會去卡地方"},{"start":163.424,"end":178.402,"text":"好 所以希望未來如果是我主政中央一定要盡全力來協助那我地方也會跟中央好好配合用最快的速度是 那接下來我就要談今天的主題這個車站的一個安全管理問題我想"},{"start":180.764,"end":205.416,"text":"竹北台中火車站都有所謂的遊民的問題那遊民當然是需要好好的來處理而且必須跟地方政府 社政單位好好的合作那這是一個問題那台北車站曾經爆發過這個砍人案那這個是一般的旅客某個男生持刀攻擊那這樣子的一個暴力事件"},{"start":206.776,"end":235.688,"text":"讓我們對車站的安全管理真的是有疑慮所以呢這不僅也是影響到旅客包括台鐵自己員工的安全這也就是今天為什麼找我要安排這一個專案報告也是希望部長跟我們台鐵在各個各地的一個車站的安全管理的部分可以再更加強那如何強化下一頁我想除了剛剛那兩個例子也曾經發生公然性侵酒醉"},{"start":238.03,"end":260.469,"text":"這樣子的一個不幸事件那包括我們基隆站曾經發生過站務員長期遭騷擾遭遊民騷擾那台鐵工會基於為自己的權益跟安全曾經提報甚至希望交通部台鐵這邊能夠加強如何強化管理那這個部分部長雖然我有看到你們的簡報就是你們的這個"},{"start":265.174,"end":280.27,"text":"這個會議的這個回應但是我還是希望你能夠再告訴我說我們如何的可以來預先防止甚至能夠周全的保護保障旅客跟我們台鐵員工的一個人身安全的問題"},{"start":281.591,"end":308.886,"text":"是 報告員當然跟鐵路警察的合作我們當然要更密切啦那也一直拜託他們能夠協助那另外針對保全的人力我們也會開始來盤點我們現在保全的人力保全的制度是如何我們現在有保全的人力只有在台北車站有高雄車站很像也有高雄車站也有台北跟高雄其他都沒有對 其他的目前是還沒來 不然請董事長請董事長來回答"},{"start":310.322,"end":337.417,"text":"各位報告我們目前的保全是人力是很少的只有台北跟高雄還有另外一個寧若那邊有一個小車站 屏東的寧若小車站因為沒有人沒有車站沒有人所以我們派了一個下午的時候還有一個保全在那邊出入所以這個保全我們幾乎是很少人那我們現在以台北站這一次有打算加強嗎有打算在"},{"start":338.317,"end":366.084,"text":"在跟保全公司簽合作簽契約在加強人力嗎有的我們在台北站就是這樣目前我們在11月以後我想我們先比台北站這個來做那其他的車站那麼人力這個旅客眾多的部分的話我們也會思考那是不是有增加這個保全人力董事長這樣子回答其實我不滿意不要用思考兩個字而是要好好的趕快進行評估"},{"start":367.338,"end":371.634,"text":"如何調整目前已經在盤點當中也在評估當中而且我覺得不應該只有臺北"},{"start":374.093,"end":401.419,"text":"台北車站當然是我們的首都是我們的門面人流量大但是其他車站的安全也很重要以台中車站來講我們地方反映很多次包括台中市的議員也在議會裡面希望地方政府的設政單位或者是警政單位可以跟我們車站合作台鐵合作好好的管理因為台中火車站這個大車站計畫"},{"start":403.419,"end":409.941,"text":"中央支持了 我們蓋得這麼漂亮了但是呢 圍管的人力嚴重不足啊"},{"start":411.027,"end":434.602,"text":"所以常常發生不管是由民皆有的亂象或者是我們剛剛講的安全的問題這是一個開放性的空間四面八方都有可能進來不確定因素不安全的份子那你跟我說我們有鐵路警察沒錯但是我剛剛聽到有其他委員在質詢這件事的時候"},{"start":436.792,"end":458.71,"text":"部長也說要跟內政部警政署那邊溝通他們的鐵路警察的人力編制也嚴重的不足那如果以我們正規的鐵路警察的人力編制不足那還要跟警政署討論那我們自己現在可以做的就是自己台鐵公司裡面如何在保全這個區塊來強化"},{"start":462.899,"end":484.382,"text":"我覺得這個不是只有台北需要台中也很需要那我們跟地方政府有沒有合作過台中我們也很熟悉但是管轄的範圍其實我覺得大家要稍微釐清一下在站體裡面當然就是台鐵公司這個沒有問題但是我們所看到的整個台中車站大部分的外圍的管理單位其實是台中市政府"},{"start":484.522,"end":492.566,"text":"包含環保的部分包含社政的部分包含治安的部分其實我們都會跟台中市政府你們現在有固定的一個聯繫會議來討論這件事嗎"},{"start":496.684,"end":525.512,"text":"台中站現在目前是沒有的是嘛 我會建議兩項一項就剛剛董事長提到的保全人員的徵聘那保全公司的這個所謂的治安維護計畫的強化這個我覺得台鐵公司現在馬上就可以做得到而且希望不只是台北車站也不是只有高雄車站我希望像台中這個也是一級的大站"},{"start":526.212,"end":537.124,"text":"我覺得這是要盤點也一定要做的這第一個建議也希望部長你應該是OK承諾台鐵公司可以做嗎 董事長有 他們現在正在盤點到底要不要加入規劃我們來評估"},{"start":542.093,"end":569.629,"text":"拜託納入評估跟規劃好不好這第一件事第二件事情我建議我們台鐵公司主動是不是跟地方政府能夠有一個橫向的聯繫的一個專案也好小組也好會議也好就是要有一個機制我們自己車站站體內我們如何管理那站體外如部長所講的是屬於地方政府"},{"start":570.029,"end":578,"text":"我們又該跟社政環保相關的單位如何大家一起合作我們希望能夠在"},{"start":579.98,"end":601.526,"text":"安全人權的考量之下能夠解決跟改善好不好各位委員報告我剛才澄清一下台中車站這邊我們在每一個禮拜的禮拜一到禮拜五就清潔的部分我們就跟台中市政府有一個合作在討論清潔的部分"},{"start":602.066,"end":608.571,"text":"但是在這個遊民這一部分我們現在也臨時有必要的時候我們召開一個臨時會議那麼來處理這個問題我建議主動啦我覺得這個是一個很專業的問題他是一個社政單位的一個專業的一個問題希望能夠跟台鐵合作我們再強調一次在安全跟人權跟大家的權益的考量之下能夠找出一個方法"},{"start":631.467,"end":652.576,"text":"來好好管理跟改善啦不然我常常聽到有跟我講說台中火車頭騎到這裡水是國際級的怎麼呢這個周遭的環境呢卻是讓人家覺得好像不符合一個國際城市該有的一個面貌我們會跟台中市政府加強聯繫好 所以再拜託好不好好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時47分）謝謝洪孟楷召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：陳部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。在進入今天的專案報告主題之前，我還是很關心未來臺中市的大眾運輸系統。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：牽涉到最重要的當然是捷運，捷運現在綠線營運中，藍線要動工，還有藍線要延伸到屯區、太平那一段，我記得在上一屆考察的時候，上一個部長李孟諺部長曾經承諾藍線延伸到屯區、太平的這一段，希望跟現行的藍線能夠併案，然後分階段施工，這個部分我想部長也一定會支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然，我們是支持的。"],["何委員欣純：因為我知道這個要先由臺中市政府提出規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們要提出來。"],["何委員欣純：我記得臺中市政府有提出，我只是希望部長、交通部可以允諾加快速度來協助。第二個是橘線，橘線現在的進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：請局長。"],["楊局長正君：橘線部裡面其實已經轉陳到行政院，現在是在補一個促參的審查程序當中。"],["何委員欣純：好，那需要多久的時間，以你的經驗？"],["楊局長正君：這個不會很久啦，因為促參審查目前以這些軌道建設案子來看的話，通常都沒有這樣子的一個可能性。"],["何委員欣純：沒有什麼樣的可能性？"],["楊局長正君：就是民間參與。"],["陳部長世凱：不會有促參的問題，但是他們還是要我們補這部分，跟它講說不會發生。"],["何委員欣純：OK！好，要講清楚、要講清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：這個滿快的。"],["何委員欣純：好，這個話要講清楚。我們希望中央要全力協助，因為橘線還有往北，我們希望延伸到清水，還有我們也希望從崇德那邊延伸成一條紅線進豐原，它往南是到霧峰，也是屯區，甚至希望能夠延伸到南投草屯之類，這個東西當然是要一步一步啦！但是我希望中央都能夠協助，進度可以快一點，有效率，不要讓地方政府都認為中央在卡地方，部長，這個你應該可以承諾答應吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，中央從來不會去卡地方。"],["何委員欣純：好，我也希望未來如果是我主政，中央一定要盡全力來協助，我們地方也會跟中央好好配合。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們都會用最快的速度。"],["何委員欣純：是。接下來我就要談今天的主題──車站的安全管理問題，我想竹北、臺中火車站都有遊民的問題，遊民當然是需要好好地處理，而且必須跟地方政府社政單位好好地合作，這是一個問題。在臺北車站曾經爆發過砍人案，這個是一般的旅客，某個男生持刀攻擊，這樣子的暴力事件讓我們對車站的安全管理是有疑慮，這不僅僅是影響到旅客，也包括臺鐵自己員工的安全，這就是今天為什麼召委要安排這個專案報告，也是希望部長跟臺鐵在各地車站安全管理的部分可以再更加強，看如何來強化。","除了剛剛那兩個例子，也曾經發生公然性侵酒醉blah 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謝謝好 鄭董事長請學生委員 麥克風要開鄭董 陳委員好辛苦了齁我在交通委員會十幾年了齁我大概讚美你是讚美最多的"},{"start":29.997,"end":55.985,"text":"從你在立榮當總經理總市長一直到現在到高鐵那這次你從高鐵掉到台鐵來我不曉得是我們哪個長官沒電了嗎把你調過來對不起部長不是講你不知道誰沒電了把你調到台鐵來可能是你在高鐵的表現太好了轉虧為盈我們在公司化整個過程"},{"start":57.028,"end":80.89,"text":"你這邊當總經理嘛是不是後來董事長這個過程我都歷歷在目看在眼裡因為我在交通委員會非常久了那你去台鐵當然你表現很好可能給你更重要的任務我想我們這個年紀能夠替國家社會做點事也是很光榮的一件事情所以我一直勉勵你就是鼓勵你"},{"start":82.588,"end":109.939,"text":"這個不要因為薪水多少錢多少而妨害了你的心境你過來以後我發現有人跟我反映說高鐵的便當不如台鐵高鐵的便當他的商務商不如台鐵部長你回去好好檢討一下好不好高鐵那麼高的票價如果便當輸給台鐵的話未免也太丟臉了嘛對不對這個注意一下好不好"},{"start":110.854,"end":130.602,"text":"另外台鐵你上任以後敬老措施我看了日本很多的影片他們敬老非常的好銀髮族很多現在高齡社會坐火車去玩去哪裡我覺得董事長你可以跟觀光署"},{"start":131.673,"end":157.042,"text":"各縣市政府尤其花蓮台東縣政府可以合作推出這樣的列車定位每一站每一站每一站你們把這些老人還有小朋友親子活動帶去玩然後從那邊再帶回來你一站一站的每一個列車我想都會客滿你不但可以對這些老人對這些家庭的活動有些注意而且對台鐵的收益"},{"start":158.479,"end":185.569,"text":"那可以說也是一個幫助所以台鐵我希望你去那邊以後業務蒸蒸日上當然台鐵跟公路總局機必成科很多去的人這不是一個好位置去的人責任負擔很重我想我在交通委員會特別跟您勉勵我們共勉好不好謝謝委員的勉勵我也全力以赴"},{"start":186.294,"end":211.6,"text":"你要加油了好不好那你的便當尤其希望更精進我在交通委員會每次中午吃飯你問那個後面的小姐吃飯那個如果不是台鐵便當我都搖搖頭我就走了我沒興趣所以我也拜託主任秘書這邊交通委員會主任秘書你都供一些台鐵便當嘛我們交通委員會你看所有那麼多單位都沒有單位提供便當的"},{"start":213.448,"end":225.809,"text":"連我們召委你看都點頭成事啊是不是台鐵便當一個禮拜起碼兩次好不好我們也給鄭董免利嘛好不好謝謝委員給我們的加油鄭董你請回我請召委拜託交通部陳部長"},{"start":236.869,"end":259.235,"text":"謝謝部長昨天是總諮詢是馬祖大橋啊我想你也聽到了嘛有我昨天站在院長旁邊你講說公文給我我到現在回去查還沒收到你說他360億是那360億就360億那院長也講了那既然如果是360億的話那就360億嘛那你也看到360億的公文嗎"},{"start":261.338,"end":287.223,"text":"公文我沒看到但是你沒看到我也沒看到他們給我的資料是這樣子的數字沒關係啦這個不重要那主要就是編列預算編列預算啦我在台北市是負責編列預算的審查預算的我對預算非常的了解他編預算上預算的過程有過程的有程序的院長也講了既然技術沒問題經費沒問題那麼就開始編列預算嘛"},{"start":290.441,"end":304.893,"text":"那編列預算你要先開會啊今天公路總局局長沒有來啦今天是台鐵的巡達嘛那你回去告訴一下公路總局好不好我們從下個月開始請他"},{"start":306.187,"end":326.346,"text":"起碼就因為院長到昨天為止沒有講說不行喔準備要上預算因為已經七年了未免也太長了一點對已經七年了可是這個要等院合定他們的合定還沒下啦合定合定嘛你們程序一走啊你們一團死水的嗎跟我們擺在那個地方擺了八年一百年蛤"},{"start":328.735,"end":353.317,"text":"你不要連那個情死亡的墓最後被找出來你們還沒搞出來啊進度都有在走啊但是就是現在在等最後合定那你弄嘛到底怎樣嘛是不是你是陳學生委員在追啊好我希望你們下個月開始不管有沒有合定每個月召集一次會議我想我去參加不太方便你們按照程序齁隸屬關係找行政院找"},{"start":354.465,"end":375.342,"text":"不是行政院 交通部這邊找林鄉縣政府每個月開一次匯報好不好 每次開一次匯報到明年四月份 把它訂出一個方案來然後咧 因為明年的預算是今年上嘛後年預算是明年上嘛那明年上預算之前你們一定內部有個討論嘛"},{"start":377.119,"end":405.117,"text":"有個決定嘛 行政院有個程序嘛是不是 行政院程序批了以後你們才上得了預算啦不然你上不了預算嘛 對不對對 所以我是說你從現在開始 已經十月份時間也不多喔 禮拜五很長喔現在十月 過去就十一月了十一月 十二月 一月 二月 三月 五個月時間把這個事情搞定搞定以後咧要簽給大院 行政院"},{"start":406.783,"end":432.904,"text":"給時間核定以後你四月份我們主計人員才能夠把這個預算編進去才能上預算那你要整編嘛然後七八月份預算送到立法院來審議我一定要看到我沒看到的話說真的我已經發怒了我昨天講了我已經按耐我一直按耐我不是沒有脾氣的人你們可能看我陳雲仁沒有脾氣好欺負"},{"start":433.991,"end":454.134,"text":"不要這樣嘛 不會啦 沒有人敢欺負你這樣不好好不好 不會 不會然後或是有些錢我常常聽到說給綠不給藍我希望沒有這個事啦 不好啦我們聯江其實也幫很多忙委員應該都知道我其他有一些預算 你看你現在即使才辦法給我錢我還是不夠嘛 還是不夠嘛"},{"start":455.373,"end":474.487,"text":"你7億多你給我22億好了我多17億不夠一般補助款跟計畫型的補助嘛你拿到一些錢擺在那邊爛尾樓嗎不可能所以我想部長你了然於衷這個錢不夠的補助款跟計畫型的一些補助款你還是要補助給我們好不好"},{"start":475.342,"end":495.631,"text":"我會看到時候主總他的原則主計總署他的原則他給的原則給我們之後該協助連江該協助馬祖我們一定會全力來協助金門110億澎湖七八十億馬祖22億他們吃得油油的我們沒有然後這個修法提案是我提出來"},{"start":496.84,"end":524.707,"text":"我是忍辱負重把離島的問題2.5%的問題把它解決把這問題解決雖然300多億財化碼剩下300多億那其中有220億是金馬鵬的那臺灣的部分只剩下100多億那我不管他你把分子分母的問題把它解決以後其他的臺灣平均怎麼分別按照程序去處理那我們不夠的部分請部長"},{"start":526.061,"end":555.208,"text":"你告訴所屬單位沒有什麼給綠不給藍的如果這樣我會發怒好不好不好不好也會影響到我們藍軍對省預算的態度我們有足夠的經費的時候對於地方政府能夠協助的我們的態度你沒足夠也要給啊你不能房子蓋了一半你不給錢啊所以以前是地方政府要要回饋百分之十現在是四十趴欸四十%欸我們哪有這個錢所以部長你答應我"},{"start":556.038,"end":579.014,"text":"就是這個馬祖大橋的事情下個月開始啟動院長昨天講得很清楚了我想你也聽到了對啦啟動開會這個沒問題要開會但是你說要編預算我們要等到沒有你要開會開會沒問題開會你開會怎麼樣我要知道我就一個月好不好你開會讓我知道好不好好好好沒問題我們找聯交縣政府一起來開會因為我們那個抓委規定很嚴格"},{"start":580.223,"end":595.768,"text":"沒超過30秒就按鈴一次這個交通委員會從來沒這樣我當召委都讓他多講10分鐘可以多講他就不讓我講了後面兩個委員在看好了 後面何市長在催了 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時37分）謝謝主席，請臺鐵鄭董事長。"],["主席：鄭董事長請。"],["陳委員雪生：鄭董，辛苦了。"],["鄭董事長光遠：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：我在交通委員會十幾年了，我大概讚美你是讚美最多的，從你在立榮當總經理、董事長，一直到高鐵。"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：這次你從高鐵調到臺鐵來，我不曉得是我們哪個長官沒電把你調過來？對不起啊！部長，不是講你喔，不知道誰沒電，把你調到臺鐵來，可能是你在高鐵的表現太好了，轉虧為盈，我們在公司化的整個過程，你在那邊當總經理嘛！是不是？後來當董事長，這個過程我都歷歷在目看在眼裡，因為我在交通委員會非常久了，你去臺鐵當然表現很好，可能給你更重要的任務，我想我們這個年紀能夠替國家社會做點事，也是很光榮的一件事情啦！所以我一直勉勵你、鼓勵你，不要因為薪水多少、錢多少而妨害了你的心境。你過來以後，有人跟我反映高鐵的便當不如臺鐵，高鐵商務艙的便當不如臺鐵，部長，你回去好好檢討一下，好不好？高鐵那麼高的票價，如果便當輸給臺鐵的話未免也太丟臉了嘛！對不對？這個注意一下，好不好？","另外，你到臺鐵上任以後，敬老措施，我看了日本很多的影片，他們敬老做得非常的好，銀髮族很多，現在高齡社會嘛！坐火車去玩、去哪裡，董事長，我覺得你可以跟觀光署、各縣市政府，尤其可以跟花蓮、臺東縣政府合作，推出這樣的列車定位，每一站、每一站、每一站，你們把這些老人還有小朋友參加親子活動的帶去玩，然後從那邊再帶回來，我想每一個列車一站一站都會客滿，你不但可以對這些老人、對這些家庭活動有所助益，而且對臺鐵的收益可以說也是一個幫助，所以我希望你去臺鐵那邊以後業務蒸蒸日上，當然臺鐵跟公路總局積弊沉痾很多，這不是一個好位置，去的人責任負擔很重，我在交通委員會特別跟你勉勵，我們共勉，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員的勉勵，我也全力以赴。"],["陳委員雪生：你要加油，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：尤其希望你的便當更精進，你問後面的小姐，我在交通委員會每次中午吃飯，如果不是臺鐵便當，我都搖搖頭就走了，我沒興趣。"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我也拜託交通委員會主任秘書，你多供一些臺鐵便當，交通委員會有那麼多單位都沒有單位提供便當的，連我們召委都點頭稱是，是不是？臺鐵便當一個禮拜起碼兩次，好不好？我們也給鄭董勉勵，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員給我們加油。"],["陳委員雪生：好，鄭董請回。召委拜託，請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，昨天是總質詢。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖大橋，我想你也聽到了。"],["陳部長世凱：有，我昨天站在院長的旁邊。"],["陳委員雪生：你講說公文有給我，我到現在回去查還沒收到，你說要360億。"],["陳部長世凱：是，世曦工程那邊估算出來360億。"],["陳委員雪生：360億就360億，院長也講了，如果是360億的話，那就360億，你也看到360億的公文嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：公文我沒看到……"],["陳委員雪生：你沒看到，我也沒看到啊？"],["陳部長世凱：但他們給我的資料是這樣子的數字。"],["陳委員雪生：你跟我講有看到？沒關係啦，這個不重要……"],["陳部長世凱：我回去再請單位……"],["陳委員雪生：主要就是編列預算，我在臺北市是負責編列預算、審查預算的，我對預算非常了解，它編預算、上預算是有過程的、有程序的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：院長也講了，既然技術沒問題、經費沒問題，那麼就開始編列預算，編列預算你要先開會，今天公路總局局長沒有來，今天是臺鐵的詢答，你回去告訴一下公路總局，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們從下個月開始請他起碼就……因為院長到昨天為止沒有講說不行喔，準備要上預算，因為已經7年了，未免也太長了一點，已經7年了……"],["陳部長世凱：對，委員，可是這個要等院核定，他們的核定還沒下來。"],["陳委員雪生：那就核定嘛！你們程序繼續走，你們不要一團死水，公文擺在那個地方擺了8年、100年，你不要連秦始皇的墓最後被找出來，你們還沒搞出來。"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！進度都有在走，但是就是現在在等最後核定。"],["陳委員雪生：那你弄嘛！到底怎樣嘛？是不是？你說陳雪生委員在追啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我希望你們下個月開始，不管有沒有核定，每個月召集一次會議，我去參加不太方便，你們按照程序、隸屬關係，請交通部找連江縣政府每個月開一次會報，好不好？到明年4月份把它訂出一個方案來，因為明年的預算是今年上，後年預算是明年上，明年上預算之前，你們一定在內部有個討論、有個決定，行政院有個程序嘛！是不是？行政院程序批了以後，你們才上得了預算，不然你上不了預算嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，現在是沒有辦法上預算。"],["陳委員雪生：對，所以我是說，你從現在開始，已經10月份了，時間也不多，你不要以為很多，現在10月，再過去就11月了，11月、12月、1月、2月、3月有5個月時間，把這個事情搞定，搞定以後要簽給大院行政院，給行政院核定以後，4月份我們主計人員才能夠把這個預算編進去，才能上預算，你要整編，7、8月份預算送到立法院來審議，我一定要看到、我一定要看到，我沒看到的話，說真的，我已經發怒了，我昨天講了，我已經按捺、我一直按捺，我不是沒有脾氣的人，你們可能看我陳雪生沒有脾氣好欺負，不要這樣嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦，沒有人敢欺負你。"],["陳委員雪生：這樣不好，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會！"],["陳委員雪生：或是我常常聽到有些錢給綠不給藍，我希望沒有這種事啦，不好啦！"],["陳部長世凱：連江我們其實也幫很多忙，委員應該都知道，沒有這個問題。"],["陳委員雪生：其他有一些預算，你看，你現在即使財劃法給我錢，我還是不夠嘛！還是不夠嘛！七億多，你給我22億好了，我多17億，不夠一般補助款跟計畫型的補助，你拿到一些錢擺在那邊的爛尾樓嗎？不可能，所以部長，你了然於胸，這個錢，不夠的補助款跟一些計畫型的補助款，你還是要補助給我們好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我會看到時候主計總處的原則，它把原則給我們之後，該協助連江、該協助馬祖的，我們一定會全力來協助。"],["陳委員雪生：金門110億、澎湖70、80億，馬祖22億，他們吃得油油的，我們沒有，然後這個修法提案是我提出來，我忍辱負重把離島2.5%的問題解決，是不是？雖然財劃法增加三百多億，但其中有220億是金、馬、澎的，臺灣的部分剩下一百多億，我不管他了，你把分子、分母的問題解決以後，其他的臺灣平均怎麼分配，按照程序去處理，我們不夠的部分請部長你告訴所屬單位，沒有什麼給綠不給藍的。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有這樣的原則。"],["陳委員雪生：如果這樣，我會發怒，好不好？不好！不好！也會影響到我們藍軍對審預算的態度。"],["陳部長世凱：我們有足夠經費的時候，對於地方政府能夠協助的，我們的態度一樣，會儘量來協助。"],["陳委員雪生：你不足夠也要給，你不能房子蓋了一半不給錢啊！以前是地方政府要回饋10%，現在是40%，我們哪有這個錢？所以部長你答應我，就是馬祖大橋的事情下個月開始啟動，院長昨天講得很清楚了，我想你也聽到了。"],["陳部長世凱：對啦，啟動開會這個沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：要開會。"],["陳部長世凱：但是你說要編預算，我們要等到……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有，你要開會。"],["陳部長世凱：開會沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：你開會怎麼樣我要知道。"],["陳部長世凱：我們就一個月……"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？你開會讓我知道，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，我們找連江縣政府一起來開會。"],["陳委員雪生：因為我們召委規定很嚴格，每超過30秒就按鈴一次。"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦！"],["陳委員雪生：交通委員會從來沒這樣的，我當召委都讓他多講10分鐘。"],["主席：可以多講、可以多講。"],["陳委員雪生：他就不讓我講了。"],["主席：是後面兩個委員在看。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦！後面何市長在催了，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳雪生委員，我們也是一視同仁，感謝。","接下來再請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:06:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:15:31+08:00","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.400343750000001,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.711593750000002,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.90909375,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.70784375,"end":43.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.51346875,"end":76.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.42409375000001,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.70096875,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.18471875,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.29846875000001,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.45034375,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.46721875,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.86284375000001,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.42846875,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.59409375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.33159375,"end":155.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.46659375000002,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.98971875,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.12034375000002,"end":160.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.52096875,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.03534375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.05221875,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.37284375000002,"end":161.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.38971875000001,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.45721875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.60909375,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.81159375000001,"end":162.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.08159375,"end":162.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.33471875,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.46534375000002,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.45096875000002,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.69971875000002,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.93471875,"end":242.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.77784375000002,"end":254.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.10221875000002,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.88659375,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.29159375,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.99534375000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.02471875000003,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.60221875,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.88034375,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.83346875,"end":267.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.43221875,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.24221875,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.33471875000004,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.27034375,"end":282.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.62846875,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.92346875000004,"end":282.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.94034375,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.07534375,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.66596875,"end":303.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.27471875000003,"end":308.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.28221875,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.78409375,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.98221875,"end":312.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.97096875,"end":332.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.17721875,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.63284375,"end":344.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.60159375,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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您認為適合嗎然後如果說直接追究刑事的時候那這樣子的損害變成還是由我們全民來買單嘛 對不對這個部分可不可以請部長做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":86.772,"end":103.428,"text":"報告委員因為這個三個法是現在是刑法把它加進去那民事求償本來在民法裡面就可以我們就可以求償了對不需要再立法但是如果我們受到我們的業主受到損害我們本來就會要求民事的求償"},{"start":103.908,"end":122.335,"text":"OK 所以說我們這次把刑罰罰加進來民事求償的部分就按照民法的部分去處理嗎好 那這次修法有另外一個重點它是明訂整個犯罪用的工具傳播或其他的機械設備的沒收或者處置的一個規定 對不對"},{"start":123.115,"end":147.985,"text":"那過去曾經有發生過那個稻採砂石的一個船舶被沒收之後拍賣那沒收之後拍賣的時候那疑似的那個原船東就找人頭過來買那買了之後對這樣的部分再把它給購回去針對這樣的部分的時候那部長對整個拍賣或者是我們變賣的條件是不是對於這個部分要有一個更嚴格的一個限制"},{"start":149.933,"end":178.639,"text":"這個可能後續的現行法例應該會有相關的規範來辦理對OK喔因為之前有很多新聞就直接提到這個適合定在電業法裡面是OK喔那這個部分說實話因為拍賣的時候他找其他的人頭變相來買我們要規範其實不是那麼容易因為他找了一個張三理事也許並不是很直接的一個關係所以你要去追究這部分確實不是那麼容易"},{"start":178.959,"end":193.052,"text":"可是我們希望針對這部分因為之前有很多媒體都報導過類似這樣的情況那我們希望能夠把它加以一個限制尤其是很多時候這樣的一個人頭去拍賣回來的部分還涉及跨國的一些行為"},{"start":194.133,"end":216.412,"text":"那另外一個部分就是今年七月份的時候美國國會提出一個台灣海裡電纜韌性倡議法案那針對這個部分美國他這邊有提到說美國跟台灣的海巡跟區域盟友進行聯合監控跟巡邏還有建立演訓情報共享還有共同偵查徵詢的這制度當中的時候他鼓勵"},{"start":216.812,"end":241.716,"text":"台灣要加深電纜的埋設還有使用更具韌性的一個材料那本席對於所謂的加深電纜埋設跟使用更具韌性的材料這個部分的時候我們台灣這邊準備要怎麼樣去因應對於這些離岸風電的業者的時候我們做了哪些的一個溝通然後能夠來維護我們整個國家的一個供電的安全"},{"start":244.408,"end":266.576,"text":"這個應該是指通訊電纜因為通訊電纜它通常是跨國性的會影響到全世界的這個網路跟它的通訊所以需要跨國來合作除了電訊之外的時候我想電力其實也是海嵐當中很重要的一個部分目前來講我們電纜的部分主要是澎湖跟台灣之間"},{"start":268.717,"end":282.625,"text":"所以我們自己可以目前來講自己可以處理還沒有到跨國性的部分除非將來我們那個電力的電纜是從國外拉進來那時候就需要跨國性的合作"},{"start":283.697,"end":305.522,"text":"好那針對這個部分的時候我想說既然有特別提到了說要加深電纜的一個埋設等等相關那個部分的時候那我們當然希望說能夠確保台灣就是整個海纜相對安全的部分那接下來我想問一個部分因為監察院在10月15號有做一個公佈他提出了一個針對一個無預警停電的一個狀態就是雖然"},{"start":312.102,"end":328.863,"text":"次数下降可是停的时间是微幅的一个上升那针对这个部分因为它是用配电系统的层级的无预警停电的部分那针对台电自己评估的状态的时候加户停电的时间是"},{"start":330.204,"end":348.17,"text":"監察院提出這個部分的大概三倍以上那針對這個部分我們花那麼多錢在強化就是韌性的一個部分可是平均停電的時間其實是增加的那針對這個部分的時候那個部長或者是王總經理這邊的時候有沒有什麼要特別說明的地方"},{"start":350.258,"end":378.539,"text":"因為整個的電力系統的那個分佈其實是分佈的很廣全台灣24個區處那這個地方的平均停電時間不減反增那主要就是說一些比較大型的事故發生所以它的整體的時間會稍微有點拉長那這個只是大數據的統計上有這樣子的一個是 那這個部分因為整個經查院的報告當中其實提到了很多很多的細節其中提到一個就是我們變電所卡關"},{"start":379.6,"end":396.398,"text":"那我們原本要規劃要蓋23所便利店所對不對那現在有14所被延宕下來那這表示說我們在做地方的溝通當中顯然是有待加強啦所以針對這個部分的時候王總經理要怎麼去突破這個部分"},{"start":396.838,"end":422.032,"text":"所以刚才委员提到的就是为什么我停电时间拉长就是我本来是要多盖一些变电所把亏线分散让每一条亏线变少的用户数的服务那这个地方没有办法改善所以它就是一个事故点就会有更多的用户停电所以数字会拉长至于说遇到卡关你也知道现在是一个民主沟通的时代所以我们会尽量多做沟通"},{"start":422.412,"end":447.125,"text":"所以台電要更加強嘛 好不好是加強溝通 是OK 然後另外一個部分本身這邊也看到一個數字其實很特殊的是因為交通部的一個錄音專案的時候讓我們在台電搶修的平均的耗時從原本的15分鐘拉長到3.5個小時增加了14倍針對這個部分的時候我想請教一下部長或者王總經理"},{"start":448.286,"end":452.323,"text":"交通部這邊有沒有什麼樣子的溝通的機制來解決這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":454.644,"end":482.859,"text":"因為我們的一些地下化之後的一些線路都到地下了所以遇到狀況故障的時候我需要把人口一個一個挖出來才知道會在哪一個地方因為以前沒有這樣的機制因為是交通部這個入坪專案之後產生這樣的影響那導致我們整個維修的時間大幅的增加那我們要怎麼去解決這個部分我覺得技術可以解決的部分希望王總經理跟工部長跟交通部這邊好好去溝通找到一個好的解決方案好不好"},{"start":483.659,"end":507.6,"text":"那我最後問一個點 最後一個地方就是台電整個停電紀錄不安全因為桃園在112年的時候呢爆了310起停電事故那麼結果台電系統只登錄了210起最後確認有44起是台電漏燈的一個情況當然我們台電一直在講說智慧電網的一個情況現在連我們停電登錄"},{"start":508.16,"end":514.588,"text":"都還靠人工這邊在登錄而且還會漏燈這樣子對於我們智慧電網的推動不是一個很諷刺的一個狀態嗎"},{"start":515.911,"end":537.577,"text":"跟委員報告有一些漏燈可能就是很小的用戶譬如說只有一戶停電只有一戶停電或者是一個變壓器下面的某幾戶停電這種比較小的才會有這樣子一個狀況所以當我們在用智慧電網要解決這個問題的時候我們希望不要出現這狀態因為監察院的報告直接點出來針對桃園市他們110升電爆出來的狀態當中"},{"start":539.818,"end":550.358,"text":"有44筆漏燈的一個狀態我們希望這東西可以改善以現在的一個技術我覺得這些都不是問題好不好好 我們盡量用科技的方式來解決OK 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1020,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（12時6分）謝謝主席，我想請經濟部龔部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席安排了海纜七法的審查，其中電業法、天然氣事業法還有自來水法這三部法在經濟委員會審，我想，這次修法的重點主要是為保護海底電力、電纜新增了刑罰規範。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：草案當中對於損害海纜管線者沒有進行民事追究，但是聯合國海洋法公約第十一條當中很清楚地提到，只要對於海底電纜、電力或通訊造成損害，應該給予處罰。那麼針對這個部分，也就是這次修法當中沒有包含民事追究，您認為適合嗎？如果只追究刑事，這樣的損害就還是由全民買單，對不對？針對這個部分，可不可以請部長做簡單說明？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，針對這三部法，現在是把刑罰加進去。至於民事求償，在民法規定裡面，我們本來就可以求償，不需要再立法。但如果業主受到損害，我們本來就會做民事求償。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這次是把刑罰加進來，民事求償部分就按照民法處理嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。這次修法還有另外一個重點，就是明定犯罪用工具、船舶或其他機械設備的沒收或處置，對不對？過去曾經有盜採砂石船舶被沒收之後拍賣，拍賣時疑似原船東找人頭過來購買回去。針對這個部分，部長是否認為對於整個拍賣或變賣的條件要有更嚴格的限制？"],["龔部長明鑫：可能後續……現行法令應該會有相關規範辦理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之前很多新聞就提到……"],["龔部長明鑫：定在電業法裡面。"],["鄭委員正鈐：說實話，針對原船東趁拍賣時找人頭變相買回，要規範不是那麼容易，因為他與所找的張三、李四之間也許並沒有很直接的關係，所以在追究這部分確實不是那麼容易，我希望針對這部分加強。因為之前很多媒體都報導過類似情況，所以我希望能夠加以限制，尤其在很多時候，以這樣的人頭拍賣回來還涉及跨國行為。","另外，今年七月，美國國會提出臺灣海底電纜韌性倡議法案，提到美國應與臺灣海巡及區域盟友進行聯合監控跟巡邏，並建立演訓、情報共享還有共同偵巡制度時，鼓勵臺灣加深電纜的埋設以及使用更具韌性的材料。對於所謂加深電纜埋設跟使用更具韌性材料，臺灣這邊準備怎麼因應？對於這些離岸風電業者，你們做了那些溝通，能夠維護整個國家的供電安全？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這裡應該是指通訊電纜，因為通訊電纜通常是跨國性的，會影響到全世界的網路跟通訊，所以需要跨國合作。"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了電訊之外，我想電力其實也是海纜很重要的功能啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。目前來講，我們的電纜主要在澎湖與臺灣之間，所以目前來講，我們自己可以處理，還沒有涉及跨國部分。除非將來電力電纜從國外拉進來，那時候就需要跨國性的合作。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。既然特別提到要加深電纜埋設等等，我們當然希望確保臺灣整個海纜相對安全。","接下來我想問一個部分。監察院在10月15日公布調查報告，提及無預警停電狀態，雖然次數下降，可是停電時間微幅上升。而且由於是配電系統層級的無預警停電，台電自己評估的家戶停電時間大概是監察院提出的三倍以上。我們花那麼多錢強化韌性，可是平均停電時間其實是增加的，針對這個部分，部長或王總經理有沒有什麼要特別說明的地方？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為整個電力系統的分布其實很廣，所以全臺灣有24個區處，平均停電時間不減反增主要是因為有一些比較大型的事故發生，所以整體時間會稍微拉長，但這只是大數據統計上有這樣的情形。"],["鄭委員正鈐：整份監察院報告中提到很多細節，其中一個就是變電所卡關。你們原本規劃蓋23處變電所，對不對？但現在有14所被延宕下來，這表示你們的地方溝通顯然有待加強啦！針對這個部分，王總經理要怎麼突破？"],["王總經理耀庭：剛才委員提到為什麼停電時間拉長，就是因為我們本來要多蓋一些變電所，把饋線分散，讓每一條饋線的服務用戶數變少。既然這個地方沒辦法改善，一個事故點就會造成更多用戶停電，所以時間會拉長。至於遇到卡關，你也知道現在是民主溝通的時代，所以我們會儘量多溝通。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以台電更要加強嘛！"],["王總經理耀庭：是，加強溝通。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。","另外，本席也看到一個數字是很特殊的，在交通部路平專案中，台電搶修平均耗時從原本的15分鐘拉長到3.5個小時，增加了14倍。我想請教部長或王總經理，你們跟交通部有沒有什麼樣的溝通機制以解決這樣的問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為地下化之後，一些線路都到地下了，所以遇到狀況、故障的時候，我們需要從人孔一個一個挖出來才知道哪個地方故障。"],["鄭委員正鈐：以前沒有這樣的機制，因為交通部路平專案之後產生影響，導致整個維修時間大幅增加，那你們要怎麼解決？我覺得這是技術可以解決的，希望王總經理、龔部長跟交通部好好溝通，找到好的解決方案，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我最後問一點，就是台電停電紀錄不完全。桃園在112年報了310起停電事故，結果台電系統只登錄了210起，最後確認44起是台電漏登。台電一直講智慧電網，現在卻連停電登錄都還靠人工，而且還會漏登，這樣對於推動智慧電網不是很諷刺的狀況嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，有一些漏登可能涉及很小的用戶，譬如說只有1戶停電或者1個變壓器下面的某幾戶停電，這種比較小的規模才會有這樣的狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：當你們用智慧電網解決這個問題的時候，我們希望不要出現這個狀態。監察院的報告直接點出桃園市112年爆出的停電事件中有44筆漏登，我們希望這種情況可以改善。以現在的技術，我覺得這些都不是問題，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：好，我們儘量用科技方式解決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員的質詢。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員黃捷、張嘉郡、林楚茵所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於1周內以書面答復並副知本會，委員另有要求期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da513b870b35190a409f14a9ab9b55a87a24a1aee410a7bf192f32eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:03:01 - 12:11:29","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:03:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:11:29+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.54534375,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.02971875,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.775968750000004,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":44.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.12471875,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.38596875,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.78659375,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.67596875,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.320968750000006,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.93221875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.14284375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.28159375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.71596875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.34784375000001,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.52471875,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.27534375,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.57346875,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.44659375,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.53846875,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.68159375,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.49971875,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.41034375000001,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.27909375,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.74284375,"end":116.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.70471875000001,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.58471875,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.87534375,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.27596875,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.90409375000002,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.31721875,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.40534375000001,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.05034375,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.05346875,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.10784375,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.38159375,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.39846875,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.72721875000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.17659375000002,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.84721875000002,"end":177.4884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我請兩位補充好 請兩位部長委員好 補充好 委員好這般的噴漆滴很嚴肅的問題 不能再稍微提了風壓本來就是中庸的一款 你看蘇貞昌一定有同期期 什麼樣的態度 對不對"},{"start":43.563,"end":63.61,"text":"他自己去到地上的方式破口那麼今天問題發生中央地方如果沒有一條心就對了我專門扣除了台灣用地産業恐怕會參不領導我今天想你探討這個池地的問題因為噴水後沒辦法氣化"},{"start":70.362,"end":91.069,"text":"所以 黃金寶有補助地方啊 啊這個噴來做堆肥的 喔 更有優勢你不要叫地方的所理幫你騙 副的地方說 你看我們台 台 我們這裡已經做得很好啊 台中都這樣噴了五百度 這才是事實噴的企劃 我請教兩位部長 日本怎麼做"},{"start":100.658,"end":124.646,"text":"三十年前 三十年前日本就已經把噴化作治療人家噴不是只有咖喱而已 他的噴走到滾來治療是四十五年前的事情一直到三十五年前 他感覺這種包括這個烤地藥 包括這個肥皂滴汁"},{"start":125.646,"end":143.583,"text":"農有可能會減量 所以已經不再用我們地農的 把它們分開來賺錢但是地農沒有那個能力 它產業的薪金也沒有那個能力 來把它們做工業給它處理"},{"start":146.107,"end":146.747,"text":"我跟委員報告 現在"},{"start":161.806,"end":176.915,"text":"噴在池底的時候除了說一般的廚餘他還是要跟一般植物性的料源去混合你說的日本 日本的廚餘不是跟我們台灣的廚餘一樣他有分一些植物性的跟動物性的開始就把它分開了"},{"start":180.937,"end":196.723,"text":"收到的時候 兌到這個檔單 兌到餐廳其實是特殊的碰點 譬如說全台灣現在生態餐廳很多 市長的 還有這個烘焙業 種種不一樣的年老的 把這個噴了 它不是檔單 這樣煮煮的就沒底價"},{"start":207.884,"end":235.328,"text":"他要知道添加就是說以工業化的設備大規模 譬如說有4D在國管制你們想辦法補助一下然後呢 我們的用地的3D可以升級他不但把這噴修進來消毒以外 高溫的消毒 還要添加營養劑甚至添加蛋白質然後呢 做成乾燥料的肥料"},{"start":236.968,"end":245.127,"text":"這個肥料沒有滴溶 雖然比它脂肪 成分比較高一點但是比它吃全脂料 成分比較低 保證是不是這樣"},{"start":246.237,"end":256.14,"text":"對 他現在有一個階級 我也有去了解大概6500萬一天可以做25噸但是像委員講的 你頭上的廚藝要分類這個環境保證嘛 不是分類是這樣嘛 你要做企劃之後 要做後備 要做是沒工的嘛這就保證你這裡要用心嘛"},{"start":272.292,"end":289.026,"text":"因為你目前我看是你沒有具體的辦法沒有 我們還是這個真主的部分呢給豬吃飼料的部分還是農業部這邊處理那我們當然是希望未來能夠更加的去化處理的收集是你們的業務就是說對元頭要去處理分的時候就應該要做初級分類這樣後面農業部的身分才會更多"},{"start":298.334,"end":315.271,"text":"以身分鋼筋療養做出來的品質比較有體性 比較有辦法讓整個腰底、三脊、蹄膿可以接受你這種的治療啦我講的意思是這樣 不然你覺得是怎樣 你有建議這個做法嗎"},{"start":317.253,"end":344.076,"text":"感謝委員 建議 你剛才講的 我們陣營已經有在研究 在做你們研究幾檔啊 你知道嗎我們已經 日本就做30幾檔我們只有在那裡 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀這樣拿20幾檔 我跟你講 要放棄身分 要控制他們的身分當然對基隆來說 我身分如何如何 但是安全是沒辦法的"},{"start":345.604,"end":346.75,"text":"所以如果是這套的辦法"},{"start":348.511,"end":375.966,"text":"我們聯邦可以共同來福德地方政府真真正正可以用這個高溫殺菌抗藥法看守療養行為 治療 新的治療當然這個添加經過添加的過程跟製造的過程有增加的成本所以政府要補助到什麼程度那麼是要福德藥治來充輸而且是地方政府統一管理療養"},{"start":378.108,"end":382.14,"text":"統一緩衝才會用到新的治療 你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":383.456,"end":409.405,"text":"我基本上暫時 委員在說的 就是說我們長久的時候要把我們的廚餘變成用工業的手段變成飼料啦這個飼料的部分 第一點就是說 要有入飼完異素入飼完異素就是說 豬農本身要用所以這個部分 我們已經把它變成一個我們在討論的方案之一啦因為廚餘的再利用的部分 特別是放去豬吃的時候"},{"start":411.105,"end":422.074,"text":"有很一種的 你如果爭主你如果說不可能都怕你我們在討論這個方案就是已經沒有爭主的問題了嘛但是不是一定要在那邊行公義喔我們的爭主才能夠退場這個是有他的一些顧慮期 我知道嘛 就是說現在沒有在討論爭主 我想說新的方向新的做法 我們環境部跟農業部可以合作跟地方來做這個配合 平坡中我講的意思 確定比較清楚吧"},{"start":440.429,"end":464.019,"text":"這個我們有在研議啦因為我們也在看國外有幾個新的到底哪一個是適合台灣未來的發展的確是 我覺得你說的沒錯 要細分類因為現在像餐廳其實它有不一樣的餐廳的形態 事業的形態也要做好一個分類沒關係啦 你一陣子可以有一個粗暴的兵局報告 可行性的兵局委員 因為現在這位很忙他我上禮拜接到電話一直忙到現在三個位好不好沒關係 OK 半天也沒關係 因為"},{"start":470.342,"end":492.084,"text":"剛才博長你說你們都一直在研究一直在研究 顯然沒有啦要落實 因為這是一個企業專行 用地升級專行 很好的契機啦 我進行經濟委員會我就講 日本已經有成功的這個契機 如果要授權我都願意直接授權進來"},{"start":493.826,"end":504.639,"text":"這個部分就是看他的那個啦人家已經做三十年了 沒中這三十年來 也很多學者有拿出建議嘛現在是關心在你 要跟不要而已好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1039,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時3分）主席，我請兩位部長。"],["主席：好，請兩位部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：部長好。這次廚餘養豬是很嚴肅的問題，你們不要再互推責任，防疫本來就是中央的職權，你看蘇貞昌院長當時是什麼態度，對不對？他自己到第一線防止破口，今天問題發生，中央地方如果沒有一條心，就會全面擴大，臺灣養豬產業恐怕會慘不忍睹。我今天要探討養豬的問題，因為廚餘最後沒辦法去化，所以環境部有補助地方用廚餘來做堆肥，有沒有落實？你不要被地方的數字騙，有的地方說：你看，我們這裡已經做得多好，臺中都把廚餘亂倒。這是事實嗎？廚餘的去化，我請教兩位部長，日本怎麼做？30年前，日本就已經把廚餘化為飼料，他們的廚餘不是只有加熱而已，他們把廚餘煮沸以後再拿去養豬，是45年前的事情，一直到35年前，他們發覺這樣做，包括口蹄疫、非洲豬瘟都有可能會感染，所以他們已經不再容許豬農把廚餘煮沸之後來養豬了，但是豬農沒有那個能力，他們產業的升級也沒有那個能力來將廚餘來做工業化的處理，農業部為什麼沒有跟環境部去思考？廚餘本身是要分級的，你知道嗎？廚餘養豬是要分級的，你知道嗎？怎麼分？部長，怎麼分？"],["陳部長駿季：我向委員報告，現在廚餘用來養豬，除了一般的廚餘，還是要跟一般植物性的料源混合，你說到日本，日本的廚餘不是跟我們臺灣的廚餘一樣，它有分一些植物性的和動物性的，他們一開始就分開了。"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，第一，廚餘收回來的時候，他們會針對廚餘的濕或乾，針對來源，像餐廳或特殊的麵包店，譬如現在臺灣的生態是餐廳很多，市場的跟烘焙業的，有種種不同的來源，然後這些廚餘不是濕濕的煮一煮就給豬吃，要再添加營養，就是以工業化的設備大規模飼養，譬如說，對於有養豬的各縣市，你們想辦法補助一下，然後讓我們養豬產業可以升級，不但把廚餘收進來以後要高溫消毒，還要再添加營養劑，甚至添加蛋白質，之後再烘乾，做成肥料，這些肥料賣給豬農，雖然會比用廚餘養豬成本高一點，但是比讓豬吃全飼料成本低，部長，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在有一個機器，我們也有去瞭解，大概6,500，一天可以做25噸。但是照委員說的，前面廚餘要分類，不是……"],["謝委員龍介：分類是這樣，就是說，你要把廚餘去化，之後要做堆肥，跟養豬是不一樣的，彭部長，你這裡要用心。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["謝委員龍介：目前我看到你還沒有具體的辦法。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，這個蒸煮的部分，給豬吃飼料的部分還是農業部處理，那我們是當然是希望未來……"],["謝委員龍介：廚餘的搜集是你們的業務。"],["彭部長啓明：是，是。"],["謝委員龍介：從源頭去處理廚餘的時候，就應該要做初級分類，後面農業部的成本才可以降低，成本降低之後，做出來的品質才會提升，才能讓整個養豬產業的豬農接受這種飼料，我說的意思是這樣，部長，你覺得怎麼樣？你們有研議這個做法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。感謝委員的建議，你剛剛說的，我們之前已經有在研究，有在做。"],["謝委員龍介：你們研究幾年了，你知道嗎？日本已經做三十幾年，我們只是討論廚餘要不要用來養豬就談二十幾年，我告訴你說，要降低成本，控制他們的成本，當然對豬農來說，成本越低越好，但是安全是無價的，所以如果是這套的辦法，你們兩部可以共同輔導地方政府，真真正正用高溫殺菌、工業化烘乾之後，成為養豬的新飼料，當然經過添加劑的過程和製造的過程有增加成本，所以政府要補助到什麼程度，是要輔導業者來從事，或者是地方政府統一管理之後，統一販售這種養豬的新飼料，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我基本上贊成委員說的，就是說，我們長久以來要把我們的廚餘用工業的手段變成飼料，這個飼料，第一點就是要有業者願意做，業者要願意做，就是豬農本身要可以用，所以這個部分我們已經把它變成一個我們在討論的方案之一，因為廚餘再利用的部分，特別是給豬吃的時候，如果蒸煮，不可能……"],["謝委員龍介：今天我討論這個方案，就是已經沒有蒸煮的問題了，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。但一定要等這部分成功以後，蒸煮才可以退場，這個是有它的一些過渡期……"],["謝委員龍介：我知道。我現在沒有在討論蒸煮，我是說新的方向、新的做法，環境部和農業部可以合作，與地方配合，彭部長，我說的意思可能你比較清楚。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。這個我們有在研議，因為我們也在看國外有幾個新的，到底哪一個是適合臺灣未來的發展，的確是委員你說的沒錯，要細分類，像餐廳，其實有不一樣事業的型態，也要做好一個……"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係。你們什麼時候可以有一個初步的可行性評估報告？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為我們這個月很忙，我上個禮拜接到電話，一直忙到現在。"],["謝委員龍介：1個月……"],["彭部長啓明：3個月好不好？"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係，OK，半年也沒關係，剛才部長你說你們都一直在研究，顯然沒有，要落實，因為這是一個企業轉型、養豬升級轉型很好的契機，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我之前在經濟委員會會議就說，日本已經有成功的機器，如果要授權，我願意直接開放授權，讓他們進來，這個部分就是看他們……"],["謝委員龍介：人家已經做30年了，部長，這30年來也有很多學者提出建議，現在是你決心要不要做而已，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["謝委員龍介：好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員龍介：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好。謝謝我們謝委員，這麼恭敬地敬禮。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51b325c4261ce2b72c14a9ab9b55a87a24a1aee410a7bf192f32eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:54:03 - 12:02:38","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:54:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:02:38+08:00","duration":515,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.38034375,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.923468750000001,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.40846875,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.72846875,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.454093750000002,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.447843750000004,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.41221875000001,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.81221875,"end":119.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.14721875000001,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.18221875,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.48971875,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.34596875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.76159375,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.00596875000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.52471875,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.57534375,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.34534375,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.42034375,"end":181.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.94721875000002,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.35159375,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.36846875,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.38534375,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.44721875000002,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.64534375000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.85909375,"end":208.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.09534375,"end":209.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.59721875000002,"end":213.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.03971875000002,"end":219.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.36784375000002,"end":225.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.75096875000003,"end":239.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.96596875,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.63909375000003,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.79784375000003,"end":268.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.91721875,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.56221875,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.56159375000004,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.03784375000004,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.91909375,"end":297.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.96471875000003,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.72346875,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.89159375,"end":327.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":301.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.68846875,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.82784375,"end":335.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.37096875000003,"end":336.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.53971875,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.16409375,"end":356.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.53221875,"end":370.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3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這個黑水盲我也特別有去看過我們也認為它是未來循環經濟很好的方式因為它可以很多元的一個利用解決這個廚藝的問題所以我們政策上是鼓勵的目前我們也有一些專案的計畫在研究如何有一個更好的生態系幫助這個產業可以成長起來"},{"start":139.266,"end":159.739,"text":"是 在法令上我們目前會有阻礙嗎有需要解決的部分嗎黑水盲它的蟲蟲吃完了之後它到底以後可不可以當成飼料去餵雞或是說黑水盲它未來可以承承永續航空用油它這個怎麼處理所以量到底多少這個會牽涉到飼料管理法的部分嗎對對對"},{"start":161.64,"end":184.033,"text":"我跟委員報告就是根據飼料管理法你要做肥料的話你可以當申請當肥料但是要經過申請肥料的時候你必須檢測相關的一個有沒有毒性有沒有肥效這個部分他不會因為你的來源不一樣就禁止所以這個部分會根據到黑水門本身作為肥料的利用效率那例如利用效率高的話他做肥料應該是沒問題的"},{"start":185.03,"end":213.007,"text":"是那這部分我們農業部會最近會有做一些積極的一個我想黑水盲其實在我們農業部其實內部已經討論非常多了那最主要是它的利用效率是不是可以能夠達到一個就是生產用的因為一定要後端有市場前端去做的時候才有效果但我想我們會跟環境部積極來做那另外跟委員補充就是飼料做廚藝的時候它不一定是直接"},{"start":214.108,"end":239.145,"text":"我們台灣是用直接的生廚藥去蒸煮那其實廚藥也可以先經過飼料化本身變成液體肥料或是固體肥料再給那個那個豬隻吃所以它有很多的方式那這個部分我想我們在我們的國內我們農業部的研究專案會也在做這樣的研究那我後續的這些東西我希望能夠增加更多的多元化的利用那這樣的話那個壓力才不會那麼大"},{"start":240.256,"end":259.485,"text":"因為基層的相信也都非常的關心所以也都提供了一些意見那他們認為說這個黑水盲的方式非常好的話我們政府應該要積極的帶頭來推動才對那我們也看到嘉義縣他們也成立了這個儲雨權循環中心利用這個黑水盲來處理這個"},{"start":261.227,"end":274.721,"text":"廚餘我相信這個應該是我們也可以去觀摩然後之後在農業部或者是環境部這邊可以來協助在各縣市來推動那接下來我想請問一下就是因為這次的這個"},{"start":276.978,"end":303.181,"text":"非洲豬瘟爆發的破口目前就是應該是推測是廚餘餵養的部分產生的嗎我想現在還沒辦法確認在疫調的過程中完整的疫調還沒有出來那說有可能因為除了廚餘以外還有包括接觸嘛就是人車的接觸或移動所以現在因為第一輪疫調看起來這個疫情就鎖在台中這個案場那相對的是一件好事"},{"start":303.781,"end":326.815,"text":"所以我們積極上還會趕快把這些疫調本身的一些必須釐清的東西趕快釐清我們擔心的就是說裡面還有一些盲點不知道以後變成以後的破口所以這個完整的疫調出來以後才有機會去看到這些來源第二個部分就是疫調也同時讓我們知道我們現在的體制還有哪一些必須精進的地方那我們後續也會來精進"},{"start":327.976,"end":338.783,"text":"是那就是對於這個廚餘的處理當然我們有一定的一個要求就是要蒸煮90度然後一個小時以上那我們看到這個案場他對廚餘的處理就是後來發現說他有好幾個月都沒有上傳這個記錄了所以對於他是不是有確實照這個標準來處理廚餘也讓人家覺得說會是一個防疫的一個破口所以昨天那個"},{"start":356.634,"end":371.107,"text":"我們養豬協會的那個各縣市的理事長還有這個總會的潘理事長他們有來拜會黨團他們有提出建議說廚藝有沒有可能由中央來統一爭主後來供應使用這個部分"},{"start":371.67,"end":398.462,"text":"我跟委員報告現在有四個縣市九個中央處理廠在申請那已經在營運的是苗栗的那個廠那基本上我們以農業部的立場來講如果這些珍珠廠是可以提供給我們的廚藝養豬戶而養豬戶也願意接受的時候我們是能夠給予支持但是有個重點就是我們在查訪的過程中也發現說大部分的廚藝養豬戶"},{"start":400.003,"end":413.762,"text":"都是認為自己組的最安心但是這個可能要需要溝通然後也要讓他知道中央處理廠這個這個徵組是不是能夠達到他們放心的角度這個蠻重要的所以我們想我們會來討論跟環境部一起來討論這樣的一個議題好"},{"start":416.906,"end":437.542,"text":"那昨天潘總會長又也提到了一個問題就是這個台中處於海這種狀況真的是令人觸目驚心潘總會長說像他這樣露天的這樣子的話如果說有鳥類去著食的話會不會又變成病菌的一個傳染的一個途徑會不會又造成是防疫的破口"},{"start":438.263,"end":452.478,"text":"對 報告委員因為這個從這個禮拜天開始我們就注意到這個問題包含院長都很關心所以我們環境部呢從禮拜天還有昨天都有派人去現場的去視察那當然啦 他們因為我們有一個堆肥的規定野脈腸的一個規定"},{"start":453.519,"end":479.396,"text":"他們呢 很多是還沒有辦法符合他們這樣子是有符合規定的嗎有改進的空間 所以他們也從善如流部長講得太含蓄了吧有改進的空間就是不合規定吧然後他們現在昨天已經兩個我們看了四個場 兩個場已經開始復土了因為復土有一定的規定0.5公尺深 然後再30公分的復土然後就不要讓動物跑來吃這樣台中市政府算不算帶頭違法"},{"start":481.156,"end":507.654,"text":"我們是希望他們可以做得更好那目前他們另外兩個像這樣的這個處於海的部分他們也承諾今天就會開始進行復讀然後未來也不會做這樣的事情會送到野脈場去是好那因為這個防疫真的就視同作戰真的每一個部分每一個環節真的都是要非常的嚴謹一對不能夠讓這就是我們一定要嚴正一帶把這個病情跟他防堵下來"},{"start":509.96,"end":510.883,"text":"謝謝兩位部長辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時54分）謝謝主席，因為時間的關係，我是不是可以請農業部陳部長跟環境部彭部長一起上臺？"],["主席：有請兩位部長。"],["陳委員素月：不好意思。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：兩位部長早。我們知道最近因為臺中市某養豬場爆發了非洲豬瘟的疫情之後，我們也看到農業部非常迅速的宣布了禁運禁宰及禁廚餘的政策。本席對這個政策給予農業部肯定，因為我們看到禁廚餘之後衍生的問題，也就是廚餘的處理問題。我們看到這個統計表是2024年的統計，就是國內對於廚餘的利用，有飼料化、肥料化、能源化以及其他幾種途徑。其中飼料化就是高溫蒸煮後來餵養豬隻就占了62.6%，這是一個非常高的比例，所以在農業部宣布禁廚餘餵養豬隻之後，這62.6%的處理，我想可能就是一個非常棘手的問題。","在目前這樣的狀況，其實地方也有很多熱心民眾提供了一些意見，包括我的選區──田中鎮公所之前的員工，他說他們的公所在2019年就在實施黑水虻去化廚餘的方法，效果也不錯。可是我們看到黑水虻去化的比例才1.2%，所以不曉得就這個去化的途徑，目前如果政府要來推會有什麼法令上的限制？有沒有可能未來在這部分來強化？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個黑水虻我也特別有去看過，我們也認為它是未來循環經濟很好的方式，因為它可以很多元的利用，解決廚餘的問題，所以我們政策上是鼓勵的。目前我們也有一些專案計畫在研究如何有一個更好的生態系，幫助這個產業可以成長起來。"],["陳委員素月：是，在法令上我們目前會有阻礙嗎？就是有需要解決的部分嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：黑水虻吃完了之後，到底以後可不可以當成飼料去餵雞，或是說黑水虻蟲油未來可以成為永續航空用油，這個怎麼處理，所以量到底多少……"],["陳委員素月：這個會牽涉到飼料管理法的部分嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是根據飼料管理法，若要做肥料的話可以申請當肥料，但是要申請當肥料的時候必須檢測相關的有沒有毒性、有沒有肥效，這個部分不會因為來源不一樣就禁止，所以會根據黑水虻本身做為肥料的利用效率，利用效率高的話，做肥料應該是沒問題的。"],["陳委員素月：這部分我們農業部最近會做一些積極的處理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想黑水虻其實在我們農業部內部已經討論非常多了，最主要是它的利用效率是不是能夠達到生產用的，因為一定要後端有市場，前端去做的時候才有效果，我想我們會跟環境部積極來做。","另外跟委員補充，當飼料做廚餘的時候，我們臺灣是用直接的生廚餘去蒸煮。其實廚餘也可以先經過飼料化，本身變成液體肥料或是固體肥料再給豬隻吃，所以它有很多的方式。這個部分我想在我們國內，我們農業部的研究單位也在做這樣的研究。那後續的這些東西，我希望能夠增加更多多元化的利用，這樣的話，壓力才不會那麼大。"],["陳委員素月：是，相信基層也都非常的關心，所以也都提供了一些意見，他們認為這個黑水虻的方式非常好，我們政府應該要積極的帶頭來推動才對。我們也看到嘉義縣成立了廚餘全循環中心，利用黑水虻來處理廚餘。我相信這應該是我們可以去觀摩的，之後農業部或者是環境部這邊可以協助各縣市來推動。","接下來我想請問一下，就是因為這次的非洲豬瘟爆發的破口，目前推測是廚餘餵養所產生的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想現在還沒辦法確認，目前在疫調的過程中，完整的疫調還沒有出來，所有可能……因為除了廚餘以外，還有包括接觸，就是人、車的接觸或移動。現在第一輪疫調看起來疫情就鎖在臺中這個案場，相對是一件好事，所以我們會積極、趕快把這些疫調本身必須釐清的一些東西趕快釐清。我們擔心的就是裡面還有一些盲點不知道，變成以後的破口，所以完整疫調出來以後才有機會去看到這些來源。第二個部分就是疫調的同時也讓我們知道我們現在的體制還有哪一些必須精進的地方，我們後續也會來精進。"],["陳委員素月：是，對於廚餘的處理，當然我們有一定的要求，就是要蒸煮90度，然後……"],["陳部長駿季：90度、1個小時。"],["陳委員素月：90度、1個小時以上，我們看到這個案場對廚餘的處理，後來發現他有好幾個月都沒有上傳相關紀錄了，所以對於他們是不是有確實照這個標準來處理廚餘，也讓人家覺得這會是一個防疫的破口，所以昨天養豬協會各縣市的理事長及總會的潘理事長有來拜會黨團，他們有提出建議說廚餘有沒有可能由中央統一蒸煮後供應使用？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我跟委員報告，現在有4個縣市、9個中央處理廠在申請，已經在營運的就是苗栗那個場，基本上以農業部的立場來講，如果這些蒸煮場可以提供給廚餘養豬戶，而養豬戶也願意接受的時候，我們是能夠給予支持。但是有一個重點就是，我們在查訪的過程中也發現大部分的廚餘養豬戶都是認為自己煮的最安心。"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["陳部長駿季：但是這個可能還需要溝通，然後也要讓他們知道中央處理廠的蒸煮是不是能夠達到他們放心的角度，這個滿重要的，所以我們會跟環境部一起來討論這樣的議題。"],["陳委員素月：好。昨天潘總會長也提到了一個問題，就是臺中廚餘海這種狀況，真的是令人怵目驚心。潘總會長說，像他們這樣露天放置，如果有鳥類去啄食的話，會不會又變成一個病菌傳染的途徑？會不會又造成防疫的破口？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，從這個禮拜天開始，我們就注意到這個問題，包含院長都很關心，所以我們環境部從禮拜天，還有昨天，都有派人去現場視察。因為我們有一個關於堆肥掩埋場的規定，他們的做法有很多還沒有辦法符合我們的要求。"],["陳委員素月：那他們這樣子是有符合規定的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有改進的空間，所以他們也從善如流……"],["陳委員素月：部長也講得太含蓄了吧？有改進的空間就是不合規定吧？"],["彭部長啓明：昨天我們看了4個場，有2個場已經開始覆土了，覆土有一定的規定，要有0.5公尺深，然後再30公分的覆土，就是不要讓動物來吃。"],["陳委員素月：那臺中市政府算不算帶頭違法？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望他們可以做得更好。目前另外2個像這樣的廚餘海，他們也承諾今天就會開始進行覆土，未來也不會做這樣的事情，會送到掩埋場去。"],["陳委員素月：好。防疫真的視同作戰，每一個部分，每一個環節真的都要非常嚴謹以對，我們一定要嚴陣以待，把病情防堵下來。"],["彭部長啓明：對，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝兩位部長，辛苦了。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員瑩代）：好，謝謝。據說臺東泰源監獄的廚餘也是完全都用黑水虻處理，效果好像還不錯，有空可以去看看。","接下來請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da513710e85e97ad9288b08d4a2736e01e2ba1aee410a7bf192f3e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:00:01 - 12:05:52","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:00:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:05:52+08:00","duration":351,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.99034375,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.70596875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.69096875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":44.564093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.087218750000005,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.899093750000006,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.89596875000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.95909375000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.27659375,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.35909375000001,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":120.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.09659375000001,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.18471875,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.20909375,"end":130.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.93034375000002,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.12284375000002,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.29159375,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.56534375,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.84721875,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.33221875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.15909375,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.32534375,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.12159375000002,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.77534375000002,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.02721875,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.05159375000002,"end":197.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.05471875,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.25596875000002,"end":215.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.13659375,"end":216.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.65971875000002,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.26534375000003,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.22784375,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.60659375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.63096875,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.00971875,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.97471875,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.66971875,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.56721875,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.92971875,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.22346875,"end":308.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.84346875,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.62784375,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.17159375,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.77034375,"end":323.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.00159375000004,"end":327.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.38534375,"end":324.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.78596875,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.47346875,"end":328.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.63784375,"end":329.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.32971875000004,"end":332.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.18159375000005,"end":333.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.70471875000004,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.56534375,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.88159375000004,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.99971875,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.18909375000004,"end":338.22284375000004},{"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谢谢主席 我请部长"},{"start":17.651,"end":41.719,"text":"好 部長早安川普的亞洲行其實一舉一動每一個地點事實上跟台灣都有一些關係在上個星期也在這邊請教部長那當然現在他跟日本的高市新的首相已經談完了然後接下來就是看他包含跟習近平跟李在民的談判"},{"start":42.759,"end":67.548,"text":"那马来西亚的部分我也有注意到注意到这个我们的国贸署以今天就是这两天新闻稿特别讲到10月26号那么美国和马来西亚已经签署了这个相关的贸易协定那我觉得从亚洲来看现在看起来是西土战的开打西土战开打"},{"start":68.608,"end":84.418,"text":"馬來西亞跟美國的貿易協定裡面呢有特別承諾馬來西亞的稀土的出口不受到這個就是應該是說不要受到中國在管制的一個影響而且呢很特別的跟日本"},{"start":84.958,"end":113.106,"text":"也特別的去簽署了這個相關的協定談判的重點也要簽署相關的稀土的文件我本來覺得很奇怪日本有稀土嗎結果呢後來發現日本呢現在可能有開採稀土計畫所以也就是川普的亞洲型事實上有一個非常重要的除了中國之外他對馬來西亞也談稀土他對日本也談稀土好那現在問題"},{"start":114.666,"end":140.341,"text":"來了台灣有稀土嗎台灣沒有生產源的稀土是沒有的都沒有而且我們還靠進口對不對我們不但靠進口而且我們進口很大的比例來自於中國對不對因為沒有辦法的事情雖然我們都說我們不要什麼中國字等等之類但是中國就是95%以上的稀土還有那個磁鐵超級磁鐵通通都是來自中國"},{"start":141.221,"end":150.213,"text":"好 所以台灣不像馬來西亞也沒有像日本可以去簽署相關的供應鏈的合作所以"},{"start":151.397,"end":174.837,"text":"部長我覺得我們現在大家都在全世界的稀土戰裡面台灣沒有相關的稀土而且呢我們還被中國管制出口我們有八個機構那大概主要是以國防為主還被管制那甚至在這次的川普的亞洲行他接到習近平有關的稀土我們甚至還擔心"},{"start":176.218,"end":198.325,"text":"美國會不會承諾來自中國的稀土不能夠賣給台灣這裡面包含這些武器所以部長我想請問一下有關於全球稀土戰開打請問一下我們政府有沒有相關的因應的策略"},{"start":199.273,"end":222.487,"text":"包委員我們第一時間大概有做了一些分析可能對我們的影響是怎麼樣那當然影響大不大如果分成兩個部分一個部分就是對於馬達磁鐵有用到的部分電動車這個當然會有影響對電動車產業有影響對我們半導體的製程基本上這一波是沒有的因為它管制項目裡面其中用到我們"},{"start":223.287,"end":248.848,"text":"半導體製程裡面比較是四跟藍那這個這一次是沒有管制的所以半導體目前沒有影響對 影響比較小但是我們還是要做一些因應的做法那因應的做法大概有分成兩個部分一個部分就像您剛才提的國際供應鏈我們雖然是供應鏈的需求方但也是供應鏈的一環那現在不管是日本也好或是美國也好或是其他國家歐盟他們都有在討論將來的因應做法"},{"start":251.63,"end":274.348,"text":"那 必要的時候我們可以跟他們有一致性的做法這是一個但是我們自己可能也要做一些準備啦好 但我的意思說我們現在擔心的是擔心因為我們是需求方那比如美國美國可能先談自己啊就是中國大陸對他的稀土延後嘛那他如果變成說即便美國的也不能夠賣給台灣或者未來他跟歐洲談也不能賣給台灣那怎麼辦"},{"start":279.365,"end":295.737,"text":"所以我们自己也要自己准备我刚才讲配合国际的供应链我们自己准备我们现在希望透过循环性的回收这是一个那另外我们也会跟产稀土的国家已经开始有一些谈了就是说"},{"start":296.977,"end":323.337,"text":"把它的那個稀土我們精煉的方法可能也會開發出來那現在工研院已經開發出一些相關技術出來但是雖然還在攻經級但是基本上這個是可行的方法那盡快的把這個方法轉移給有興趣的廠商那量把它做出來大概希望在2030年可以達到滿足我們三分之一的需求量至少我們自己可以"},{"start":324.157,"end":350.379,"text":"就是有三分之一可以自己自主三分之一自己自主但是三分之二恐怕还是要靠进口对不对因为我们现在几乎全部靠进口对不对其实我觉得真的要把全球的稀土站现在变成整个全球的这样的一个供应链里面我们的位置因为这个说实在半导体我们强势但是稀土我们是弱势总和弱势好不好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":986,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長早安。川普亞洲行的一舉一動、每一個地點事實上跟臺灣都有一些關係，我上個星期也在這邊請教部長。當然，現在他跟日本的高市─新的首相已經談完了，接下來就看他跟習近平、李在明的談判。在馬來西亞部分，我注意到國貿署在這兩天的新聞稿特別提到，10月26日美國和馬來西亞已經簽署了相關貿易協定。我覺得，從亞洲來看，現在是稀土戰開打，馬來西亞在與美國的貿易協定裡特別承諾，馬來西亞的稀土出口不受中國管制的影響，而且很特別的是，美國跟日本也簽署相關協定，談判重點中也有簽署相關稀土文件。我本來覺得很奇怪，日本有稀土嗎？後來發現日本現在可能有開採稀土計畫。也就是說，川普的亞洲行事實上有一個非常重要的主題，除了中國之外，他對馬來西亞談稀土、對日本也談稀土。那現在問題來了，臺灣有稀土嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：臺灣沒有生產原稀土、是沒有的。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有，而且我們還靠進口，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，目前。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們不但靠進口，而且進口中有很大比例來自中國，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，有一部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這是沒有辦法的事情。雖然我們都說不要中國製等等，但是就是有95%以上的稀土還有超級磁鐵統統來自中國。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，有一部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：臺灣不像馬來西亞也不像日本可以簽署相關供應鏈合作。部長，現在大家都在全世界稀土戰裡面，臺灣沒有相關稀土，而且還被中國管制出口！我們有8個機構，以國防為主，都被管制，甚至在川普這次亞洲行見到習近平時要談稀土，我們還擔心美國會不會承諾來自中國的稀土不能夠賣給臺灣，因為供應對象包含武器。所以我想請問部長，面對全球稀土戰開打，我們政府有沒有相關因應策略？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們第一時間做了一些分析，包括可能對我們有怎麼樣的影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：影響大不大？"],["龔部長明鑫：我分成兩個部分。一個部分就是對於馬達、磁鐵、電動車等會用到的部分，當然會有影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：對電動車產業有影響？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但是對於我們的半導體製程來說，這一波基本上是沒有影響的，因為就管制項目來看，與我們的半導體製程比較相關的是鈰跟鑭，這次是沒有管制的，所以影響比較小。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以對半導體目前沒有影響？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，影響比較小，但我們還是要有一些因應做法。因應做法大概分成兩個部分，一個部分就像您剛剛提的國際供應鏈。我們雖然是供應鏈的需求方，但也是供應鏈的一環。現在不管是日本也好、美國也好，或是其他國家、歐盟，都已在討論將來的因應做法，必要的時候，我們可以跟他們採一致性做法，這是一點。但是我們自己可能也要做一些準備啦！關於我們自己的準備，我跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我現在擔心的是我們是需求方。以美國為例，美國可能先談自己，就是要求中國大陸延後對它的稀土管制，但如果即便是美國的也不能賣給臺灣，或者未來中國大陸跟歐洲談，歐盟也不能賣給臺灣，那怎麼辦？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們自己也要準備啦！我剛剛講到，我們要配合國際供應鏈自己準備，現在希望做到循環性回收，這是一點。另外，我們也已經開始跟產稀土的國家談了，針對他們的稀土，我們的精煉方法可能也會開發出來。現在工研院已經開發出一些相關技術了，雖然還在公斤級，但是基本上是可行的方法，將儘快把這個方法轉移給有興趣的廠商，量也做出來，希望在2030年滿足三分之一的需求量，至少我們自己可以發展。"],["王委員鴻薇：三分之一？就是指有三分之一我們可以自給自足？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，是我們自己可以發展的。"],["王委員鴻薇：三分之一自給自足？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是三分之二恐怕還是要靠進口，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們現在幾乎全部靠進口嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我覺得面臨全球稀土戰，在全球供應鏈裡面真的要有我們的位子。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們有在注意。"],["王委員鴻薇：說實在的，在半導體領域我們強勢，但是在稀土上，我們是弱勢中的弱勢，好不好？謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢、謝謝部長。","中午不休息，延長開會時間到議程處理完畢。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5122a1431bb87a48d8b08d4a2736e01e2ba1aee410a7bf192f3eca6ea80bfd1def5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:52:11 - 11:59:53","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:52:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:59:53+08:00","duration":462,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.31034375,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.54096875,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.814718750000004,"end":34.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.040968750000005,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.64846875,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.66346875,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.36346875,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.742843750000006,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.95971875000001,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.95846875000001,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.79784375,"end":89.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.04221875,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.23971875000001,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.38659375,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.49971875,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.80346875000001,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.08096875000001,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.22784375,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.67346875000001,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.89659375000002,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.06034375000002,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.22409375,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.42159375,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.86409375000002,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.63596875000002,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.19284375,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.85096875000002,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.55471875,"end":159.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.81596875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.58784375000002,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":167.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.88659375,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.98784375000002,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.79659375,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.42471875,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.65221875,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.72346875000002,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.17909375000002,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.27909375000002,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.24846875,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.28971875000002,"end":207.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.21784375000001,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.51284375,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.22096875000003,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.28784375,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.32096875000002,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.36221875,"end":234.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.86346875,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.60534375,"end":241.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.11971875,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.96721875000003,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.3715937500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長來反映"},{"start":160.885,"end":184.856,"text":"哪一個總統或哪一位部長任內我們來編列讓整個台灣全民有自來水河不能永遠就是有那麼多的人他沒有自來水河而且他用的水他們家用的水白襯衫白T恤全部洗成黃的"},{"start":186.701,"end":205.321,"text":"而且這個民眾沒有自來水喝他後續產生的健康的問題其實也會是國家的負擔所以這個2450億本席今天要來請命當然這個也絕對會是讓工部長您以及甚至不管卓院長或是賴總統"},{"start":208.293,"end":227.914,"text":"這個永垂青史啊因為台灣竟然歷經了這麼多的這個總統行政院長經濟部長沒有人重視民生最基本的自來水這個是住在台北都會區的大關門沒有辦法體會的"},{"start":229.417,"end":247.676,"text":"那本席這個從上一屆當立委那時候國民黨是這樣本席也強烈的呼籲那時候的行政院長他是有史以來也編列這個特別多的但是還是不夠還是不夠所以我們希望這2450億部長"},{"start":250.458,"end":266.584,"text":"你看是分兩年還是一年還是三年我們就讓他來完成這個絕對在台灣是一個非常非常大而且非常非常好的一件事部長可以這樣來思考嗎"},{"start":268.042,"end":295.21,"text":"這樣子來研議嗎我們也是盡量來做現在大概都是一期一期來這個最基本最卑微的自來水這個真的很不公平是因為的確是有一些是在非常偏遠或是山區裡面它的費用比較高您是這樣講但是我本席要跟你講很多它就在一般的市區鄉鎮市還是沒有沒有在偏遠山區你們要不要盤點一下"},{"start":296.929,"end":323.105,"text":"如果是市區的話我們會盡快的來處理沒有問題啊所以我們看到整體看2450億嘛那你是不是可以分兩年來編列這個特別的我們之前講的我們自來水普及化的你特別的基金嘛因為這是這個是最基本其實這些人的人權都沒有被重視啊"},{"start":324.068,"end":340.166,"text":"是我们是一期一期大概一百多亿一百多亿这样编也是有所以现在您可以了解如果到现在这一百万人你要能够都有自来水要多久你知道吗"},{"start":342.192,"end":356.543,"text":"要幾年你知道嗎照你這樣的編法要248年不知道已經投胎幾次了但是那個就是偏遠山區雖然沒有拉管道自然水但是還是有減益自然水"},{"start":358.524,"end":367.891,"text":"偏遠山區我們這2450億或是100萬人偏遠山區大概10萬以內你另外90萬你不可以編列嗎2450億你分3年"},{"start":372.694,"end":395.859,"text":"你也編列完了你分兩年你也編列完了本席真的是在這裡為這個不是只有我新竹縣全國其實中南部也非常多東部也非常多如果是人群比較聚集地的話我們會優先趕快來處理所以本席建議部長你可以大刀闊斧你就編個一千億嘛"},{"start":397.403,"end":412.694,"text":"一千億特別的基金你來進行特別就是針對自來水這個最基本的人權委員的這個指教我們可以跟行政院來反映一下這個絕對會獲得很大的好評你就幫這個"},{"start":417.518,"end":442.817,"text":"你如果說真的很偏遠人很少的當然但現在我們面臨的很多不只是這樣我相信我們召委 召委台南整個台南市應該也還是有我們來盤點一下也還是有不一定在山區我們來盤點一下就是剛剛委員提到的非偏遠地方但是很需要的部分我們先把它盤點出來你們真的盤點而且不要每年這樣一點點一點點照這樣下去要兩百多年啊"},{"start":443.678,"end":462.256,"text":"我們希望這三年這兩年我們就盡快來完成你只要預算編了就這樣來執行是加速進行好嗎不過那個時候也要考量到執行的能量對但是我們還是會盡量盡力對盡全力這個會是一項非常非常大的得證謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":945,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時52分）謝謝主席，本席有請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。您擔任部長以來，本席好像還未跟您有過質詢上的討論、比較少，只有總質詢……"],["龔部長明鑫：上次業務報告有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔！上次業務報告也有。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天感謝主席安排了有關電業法、天然氣事業法還有自來水法部分條文修正法案的審查，本席今天要特別針對自來水法。請教部長，您可知道現在全臺灣兩千三百多萬人口中還有多少人口沒有自來水可以喝？您知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好像有一百多萬是不是？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、沒錯，上百萬，百萬人沒有自來水。今年是西元2025年了，我們竟然還有100萬人沒有自來水喝，部長，對於這一塊，本席要在這裡特別強烈地給您建議。我看了一下統計數字，過去二十三年……今年是2025年，從2000年到目前為止，民進黨執政已經滿16年、歷經3個總統，國民黨自2000年以來執政1位，就是馬英九總統。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，兩任。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以過去25年以來投入了227億元的自來水普及化經費，但我們仍看到這一百萬人需要有自來水。自來水是最基本的民生需求吧？我們身為每天繳稅的國民，希望住在臺灣可以有自來水，這是最卑微的吧？也是最基本的。","我們看到統計數字，如果要讓這100萬人都有水，其實經費也不算高：2,450億元。部長，我在這裡建議，您可以向賴總統、向卓院長反映，可以在哪一個總統或哪一位部長任內編列，讓整個臺灣、全民有自來水喝，不能永遠就是有那麼多人沒有自來水喝，而且他們家用的水連白襯衫、白T-shirt都會全部洗成黃的。民眾要是沒有自來水喝，後續產生的健康問題其實也會是國家的負擔，所以針對這2,450億元，本席今天要請命，當然，這也絕對會讓龔部長您甚至卓院長或賴總統永垂青史啊！因為臺灣歷經這麼多總統、行政院長、經濟部長，竟然沒有人重視民生中最基本的自來水！這是住在臺北都會區的大官們沒有辦法體會的。","本席從上一屆開始當立委，那時候是國民黨。本席也強烈呼籲當時的行政院長，結果有史以來，他是編列特別多的。但還是不夠，所以我希望針對這2,450億元，部長看看是分兩年、一年還是三年讓它完成，這在臺灣絕對是非常大、而且非常好的一件事。部長，可以這樣思考、這樣研議嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們其實也是儘量做啦！現在大概都是一期、一期來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是最基本、最卑微的自來水，真的很不公平啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，的確有一些住戶在非常偏遠的地區或山區裡，我們也……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們的費用比較高？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以我們現在已經很寬列了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，雖然您這樣講，但是本席要跟你講，也有很多在一般市區、鄉鎮市，但還是沒有喔！他們不在偏遠山區喔！你們要不要盤點一下？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果是市區，我們會儘快處理，沒有問題啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：整體來看是2,450億元嘛！那你是不是可以分兩年編列我們之前所講，用在自來水普及化的特別基金？因為這是最基本的，其實這些人的人權都沒有被重視啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們是一期一期、各一百多億元這樣編，所以也是有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一百萬人要能夠都有自來水需要多久，您知道嗎？要幾年你知道嗎？照你這樣的編法，要248年！哇！不知道已經投胎幾次了。"],["龔部長明鑫：在偏遠山區我們雖然沒有拉管道自來水，但是仍有簡易自來水。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要跟我講這些，現在就是討論這2,450億元或100萬人，偏遠山區大概10萬人以內，針對另外90萬人，你不可以編列嗎？2,450億元分三年也編列得完啊！分兩年也編列完了。本席在這裡真的要為……不只在我所在的新竹縣，而是全國，其實中南部非常多、東部也非常多。"],["龔部長明鑫：如果比較屬於人群聚集地的話，我們會優先、趕快處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以本席建議部長大刀闊斧，就編個1,000億嘛！編1,000億特別基金來進行啊！就是特別針對自來水這個最基本的人權。"],["龔部長明鑫：對於委員這個指教，我們可以向行政院反映一下啦！因為這個金額的確比較大。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這絕對會獲得很大的好評。如果真的是很偏遠、人很少，當然很難，但現在我們面臨的有很多不只是這樣，我相信召委所在、整個臺南市應該也還是有，不一定在山區。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們盤點一下，就是剛剛委員所提到、非偏遠但是很需要的地方，我們先盤點出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們真的要盤點，而且不要每年一點點、一點點編，照這樣下去要花兩百多年啊！我希望這三年、這兩年就儘快完成，只要你預算編了，就這樣執行。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：加速進行好嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：不過這個時候也要考量執行的能量。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們還是會儘量、盡力啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，要盡全力，這會是一項非常大的德政，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢、謝謝部長。","現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5143b62f4356425e2214a9ab9b55a87a24c51656f8b51a994a3dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:40:58 - 11:53:57","影片長度":"00:12:59","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:40:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:53:57+08:00","duration":779,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.10409375,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.454093750000006,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.634718750000005,"end":59.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.570968750000006,"end":55.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.633468750000006,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.84721875000001,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.90846875000001,"end":83.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":88.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.42221875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.59846875000001,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.05409375,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.84659375000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.06159375,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.61409375000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.50784375,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":120.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.37909375000001,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.92159375,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.22721875000002,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.98534375,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.89596875,"end":166.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.29596875000001,"end":169.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.71784375000001,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.85159375,"end":193.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.32159375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.63784375,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.94971875000002,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.75034375,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.20034375,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.33096875,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.41096875000002,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.65471875,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.48159375,"end":221.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.05096875,"end":223.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.37159375000002,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.08846875,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.53534375,"end":247.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.23284375000003,"end":280.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.82096875,"end":264.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.27409375,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":285.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAK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歡迎來到胃環委員會最近台中無期區發生了非洲豬瘟的案件兩位非常辛苦 部里同仁也都很辛苦謝謝你們的辛勞不過我們還是要回到今天的主題就是如何防止病毒的擴散先請教一下部長這次感染的原因跟途徑是不是已經確定了"},{"start":46.58,"end":61.79,"text":"我跟委員說明我們現在的感染原因現在還沒辦法確定但是因為整個疫調還在調查但是因為過去台灣都沒有非洲豬瘟所以這個首例一定是從境外進來的"},{"start":62.811,"end":80.821,"text":"但是境外進來的時候在我們整個防疫系統的設計就是有不同的層次境外我們盡可能去攔那一定有百密一疏的地方那第二攔的就是在廚藝的部分一定要加強的這些監管就是徵阻然後再來就是"},{"start":82.08,"end":99.391,"text":"這些豬場本身的自主所以不同的防線才能夠有效的去防止這些豬瘟那這個非洲豬瘟的這個感染途徑基本上大概有六個來源那分別是這個食用的廚餘然後人車移動野豬"},{"start":101.272,"end":119.648,"text":"還有污染飼料還有接觸者的污染的衣服跟國際旅客我想請教兩位就是你們在進行疫情調查的時候能不能排除這家養豬場有確實隔離人跟車輛的接觸嗎"},{"start":121.451,"end":139.863,"text":"在現在的疫調就是台東市的疫調我們也經過專家會議給予一些建議跟協助包括這疫調的把表那相對的這些人員的部分特別是在案場的部分當初有些傾銷但是後來我們做我們第二輪會啟動所謂的環境的檢測嘛"},{"start":140.723,"end":161.282,"text":"那發現說這個案場的環境檢測還是有採到這個陽性的反應表示說那個傾銷不落實所以這個部分我們也積極的跟不管是所有的疫調人員或相關的單位還有人員有可能進出了傳播因為接觸了傳播所以這個東西都還在疫調過程中的釐清的一個階段"},{"start":161.983,"end":174.475,"text":"所以現在也沒有辦法說對什麼樣的人對暗場面的人跟車輛疫調過程中還沒辦法做隔離其實他們可能也已經趴趴照了"},{"start":176.831,"end":201.537,"text":"應該沒有因為這次的案例他的養豬場的投訴相對的比較少然後人員相對的也比較單純一點但是不管他少或單純他的足跡的追蹤跟他的這些關聯場我們都一一排查在第一輪裡面看起來沒有我舉個例子就是說那邊有沒有剛回國的家人或者外籍勞工可能接觸到的豬隻"},{"start":202.836,"end":226.774,"text":"初步的疫調是沒有啦但是我覺得這個東西都要做一些確認對 我想再確認再確認是很重要的因為根據媒體的報導即使經過消毒那還是在養殖場內剛剛部長也講找到這個DNA的病毒跟核酸那病毒的這個頑抗是令人很吃驚的我們看一下那個簡報"},{"start":228.715,"end":246.833,"text":"光看這個冷凍豬肉這病毒竟然還可以存活到一千天將近三年之久那如果是這樣的話可能廚餘或飼料還有病毒那你們有沒有採檢就是說飼料或廚餘然後發現到病毒呢"},{"start":247.273,"end":271.06,"text":"我們現在所有可能的就是跟這個案場有關的關聯場或者是他的移動的車輛那包括他的一些豬送到批發市場的所有的環境採檢都是陰性的並沒有發現只有在案例場做第二輪的檢測的時候還是發現特別是在殺豬的這個屠宰的地方"},{"start":271.92,"end":292.664,"text":"跟他的不是就是鋪砂的地方有發現到這些病毒的陽性那表示他的清消不確實我們已經要求了我來請教一個就是提一個假設性的問題那因為國際旅客也是也可能是一個感染的途徑如果"},{"start":293.26,"end":310.157,"text":"如果一個人就是說在別的國家吃了感染的食物然後下午來到台灣然後接觸到豬隻有沒有可能引起這一次的事件特別是在3到19天潛伏期內因為你們的疫調有沒有可能說漏掉這樣的疑慮"},{"start":311.345,"end":323.732,"text":"第一個那個非洲之瘟不是人序公共傳染病人不會接受不會感染變成潛伏的症狀這個是非常重要的是但但有沒有可能就是帶著這個"},{"start":325.307,"end":346.735,"text":"带着这个病毒他如果他的衣服就是有进到这种他们的畜牧场那就有非常高的机会进来了以后又到我们我们自己的畜牧场所以在这个机制上面其实我们过去的防疫就一直告诉我们的事主就是禁止就是到别的国家的畜牧场"},{"start":347.956,"end":356.857,"text":"這個是一直去那國內的豬農大概有這樣子一個觀念那相對他們也會預防就是一些其他的同業進到他們的養豬場"},{"start":358.431,"end":380.736,"text":"我想因為請教這麼多問題主要是說我想大家都了解就是說確認了這個感染的途徑或者是污染源那就是擬定防治病毒擴散的這個最首要的一個工作那即使沒有辦法確認我們起碼可以用排除的方式排除掉幾個可能性那就可以限縮這個防疫的範圍來專注其他的這個因素"},{"start":386.437,"end":408.855,"text":"那我想這個部分如果有需要的話本席也是建議就是說或許可以再多調查因為剛剛部長特別提到的那個接觸的那個風險那我想人力的部分大家可以再做一下調度那可以期許也可以順利找到這次感染的途徑跟原因"},{"start":409.655,"end":426.044,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我在工作會議的時候我也只是我們部裡面因為我們部裡面有相當多的單位有獸醫師也會協助這次的調查比較重要的是我們希望我們在跟時間賽跑所以這個疫調如果還有很多釐清的時候釐清的速度太慢的話"},{"start":427.318,"end":445.38,"text":"我們就怕萬一有一些盲點我們沒有去查到而這些盲點可能就是已經移到外面去我們不知道所以我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們會更積極的去針對台中暗場的這些疫調如果還有疑義的話進出去釐清好 謝謝部長要請回座那麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":452.03,"end":474.247,"text":"部長好我想今天的題目看起來好像比較偏重就是說我們他在討論廚餘也會擔心在沒有辦法排除這個原因之下有幾個問題想要請教這家養殖場的廚餘是不是來自於你們清潔隊廚餘回收所提供"},{"start":475.171,"end":487.524,"text":"目前來看是那也報告委員我們會配合農業部我們今天應該會有一些配合去做疫調的工作為什麼就是如果養殖場有加熱的話人會有存活的病毒"},{"start":488.596,"end":506.496,"text":"應該是有按照這個規定是90度以上一個小時就沒有這個病毒的存在但是我們可能按照他的申報的紀錄很有可能是這個真主不確實也有可能這樣的原因造成所以你們平常就是說在提供廚藝的同時有就是加強宣導如何有效的加熱檢測嗎"},{"start":507.957,"end":535.226,"text":"就是說我們有一個申報系統那當然它那個是一個輔助工具它如果沒有按時申報因為申報都要有溫度計在旁邊然後我們也知道它的日期在什麼時候那如果它沒有申報不確實有蠟的話那下個月我們就會發文給環保局要去集合因為看起來就是說目前台灣狀況是比較緊張一點那這樣子比較消極的一種處理方式我覺得可能在短期內我們可以稍微"},{"start":535.686,"end":558.271,"text":"更积极的对有效积极的来来宣导那我们还有就是是不是还有其他的这个养猪场来使用你们提供的厨余有总共400多家他是你说无期的养猪场就国内国内其他的养猪场"},{"start":559.251,"end":587.991,"text":"435家所以这个部分我想也应该要一并加强宣导这个住址的安全使用处理的资讯是因为我们现在还有5000多家养殖场没有感染就是说建议你们真的也是跟时间赛跑赶快去宣导甚至说要补贴这个低利贷款加热设备的购置有些小型的养殖户因为你们如果有些这个以200头做一个标准其实"},{"start":588.812,"end":604.56,"text":"其实我们台东很多都没有到200头自己收集厨余来养猪如果可以的话也请你们提供必要的协助特别是南部东部的地区的养殖个体户"},{"start":605.34,"end":623.686,"text":"雖然有時候地方政府可能禁止廚餘養豬但是有很多的個體戶或小型他們還是會有這樣的情形所以這個部分我想在台灣廚餘的利用它是流動而且它是跨縣式的所以不分使用"},{"start":624.346,"end":638.864,"text":"那政府收集的或者是自己去收集的這個廚餘那也沒有分這個大型專業養豬場或小型的個體戶只要有使用廚餘透過這個人車的移動都有可能造成這個防疫的破口"},{"start":639.284,"end":659.944,"text":"所以環境部應該透過你們比較就是更有效的這個政策工具來協助業者讓廚餘更安全的被使用所以特別是這個養豬的這個養豬場的珍珠廚餘用在這個飼料上都需要經過地方環保這個環保主管機關來核可的這個使用特定的這個設備珍珠"},{"start":661.765,"end":690.858,"text":"並且要受到這個政府的這個督導監管所以我不知道提這個意見部長認不認同委員認同那我們會來研究因為農業部他們規定是200頭以上的豬才可以用廚餘珍珠至於說低於這個的話那目前不行但是未來或許有一些集中珍珠場這跟國內使用這個豬的習慣跟養殖的習慣還是有關係所以我想這個就不要不要特別再去做這樣的區分了好 委員我們會來研究一下"},{"start":691.318,"end":708.348,"text":"對那我想最後利用一點點時間因為8月7號我們跟本席跟莊瑞雄委員王振旭委員還有林月琴委員我們到蘭嶼考察那關心了這個垃圾倉儲儲存場還有這個資源回收物清運的問題"},{"start":709.329,"end":724.745,"text":"那这个储存场因为要等这个县府台东县政府处理用地的问题所以我想我就先关心一下那个资源回收的部分哦清运的部分因为兰宇他是他是里岛所以他的这个垃圾哦"},{"start":725.586,"end":750.582,"text":"都特別需要船隻運到這個台灣來那成本相當高我想這不是鄉公所或縣政府可以負擔得起所以非常需要中央的協助那今年經費也剩下21萬元但是還有成山成堆的垃圾所以這個部分不曉得環境部這邊能夠提供什麼樣的協助因為上次講到目前為止進度如何"},{"start":750.882,"end":774.378,"text":"好報告委員這個這個案子我有特別關注喔那目前的程序是我們志願學院署已經審核那還沒有簽到我這邊但是應該會有很好的消息也謝謝委員提出這樣的一個想法我們會照委員的建議來實施所以他目前經費的規模900900多萬對是對沒有問題好那也拜託部長可以趕快蓋章好謝謝謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩請農業部陳部長跟防檢署主秘。"],["主席：請陳部長還有防檢署主秘。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。歡迎來到衛環委員會，最近臺中梧棲區發生了非洲豬瘟的案件，兩位非常辛苦，部裡同仁也很辛苦，謝謝你們的辛勞。不過我們還是要回到今天的主題，就是如何防止病毒的擴散，先請教一下部長，這次感染的原因跟途徑是不是已經確定了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，現在的感染原因還沒辦法確認，因為整個疫調還在調查，過去臺灣都沒有非洲豬瘟，所以這個首例一定是從境外進來的。境外進來的時候，在我們整個防疫系統的設計，就是有不同的層次，境外我們儘可能去攔，那一定有百密一疏的地方。第二就是廚餘的部分一定要加強這些監管，就是蒸煮。再來就是這些豬場本身的自主，所以不同的防線才能夠有效的去防止這些豬瘟。"],["陳委員瑩：非洲豬瘟的感染途徑基本上大概有六個來源，分別是食用的廚餘、人車移動、野豬、污染飼料、接觸者的污染衣服跟國際旅客等。我想請教兩位，你們在進行疫情調查的時候，能不能排除這家養豬場有確實隔離人跟車輛的接觸嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在臺中市的疫調，我們也經過專家會議給予一些建議跟協助，包括疫調調查表，相對這些人員，特別是在案場，當初有做清消，但是我們第二輪會啟動所謂的環境的檢測，發現這個案場的環境檢測還是有採到陽性的反應，表示清消不落實，所以這個部分我們也積極的處理，不管是所有的疫調人員或相關單位，還有人員有可能進出的傳播、接觸的傳播，這些都還在疫調過程中的釐清階段。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在也沒有辦法對什麼樣的人，對案場裡面的人跟車輛……"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在還沒辦法，疫調過程中還沒有辦法確定。"],["陳委員瑩：對，還沒辦法做隔離，其實他們可能也已經趴趴走了。"],["陳部長駿季：應該沒有，因為這一次的案例，養豬場的頭數相對比較少，然後人員相對也比較單純一點，但是不管他少或單純，對於足跡追蹤跟關聯場我們都一一盤查，在第一輪裡面看起來沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：我舉個例子，那邊有沒有剛回國的家人？或外籍勞工可能接觸到豬隻？"],["陳部長駿季：初步的疫調是沒有啦！但是我覺得這個東西都要做一些確認。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我想確認再確認是很重要的，因為根據媒體的報導，即使經過消毒，還是在養殖場內，剛剛部長也講找到DNA的病毒跟核酸，病毒的頑抗很是令人吃驚的。我們看一下簡報，光看冷凍豬肉，病毒竟然還可以存活到1,000天，將近3年之久，如果是這樣的話，可能廚餘或飼料還有病毒。你們有沒有採檢飼料或廚餘，然後發現病毒呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在所有可能的，就是跟這個案場有關的關聯場，或者是他們的移動車輛，包括有一些豬送到批發市場，所有的環境採檢都是陰性，並沒有發現。只有在案例場做第二輪檢測的時候發現，特別是在屠宰的地方……不是，應該是撲殺的地方有發現到這些病毒陽性，表示他的清消不確實，我們已經要求了。"],["陳委員瑩：我請教一個假設性的問題，因為國際旅客也可能是一個感染的途徑，如果一個人在別的國家吃了感染的食物，然後下午來到臺灣並接觸到豬隻，有沒有可能引起這次的事件？特別是在3到19天潛伏期內，你們的疫調有沒有可能漏掉這樣的疑慮？"],["陳部長駿季：非洲豬瘟不是人畜共通傳染病，人不會感染變成潛伏的症狀，這個是非常重要的。"],["陳委員瑩：是，但有沒有可能帶著這個病毒？"],["陳部長駿季：如果他的衣服有進到畜牧場，那就有非常高的機會，進來了以後又到我們自己的畜牧場。所以在這個機制上面，其實我們過去的防疫就一直告訴飼主，禁止他們到別的國家的畜牧場，國內的豬農大概也有這樣的觀念，相對他們也會預防其他同業進到他們的養豬場。"],["陳委員瑩：我請教了這麼多問題，主要是想讓大家都了解，確認了感染的途徑或者是污染源，擬定防治病毒擴散是最首要的工作，即使沒有辦法確認，我們起碼可以用排除的方式，排除掉幾個可能性，這樣就可以限縮防疫的範圍，也能專注於其他因素。我想這個部分如果有需要的話，本席建議，或許可以再多調查，因為剛剛部長也特別提到接觸的風險，我想人力的部分，大家可以再做一下調度，期許可以順利找到這次感染的途徑跟原因。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我在工作會議的時候也有指示，因為我們部裡面有相當多的單位有獸醫師，他們也會協助這次的調查。比較重要的是，我們在跟時間賽跑，所以這個疫調如果釐清的速度太慢，我們就怕萬一有一些盲點，我們沒有查到，而這些盲點可能已經移到外面而我們不知道，所以我們在跟時間賽跑。我們會更積極地去針對臺中案場的這些疫調，如果還有疑義的話儘速去釐清。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長，請回座，麻煩請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想今天的題目看起來好像比較偏重於我們大家都在討論的廚餘，因為也會擔心。在沒有辦法排除這個原因的情況下，有幾個問題想要請教，這家養殖場的廚餘，是不是來自於你們清潔隊廚餘回收所提供的？"],["彭部長啓明：目前來看是，也跟委員報告，我們會配合農業部，今天應該會有一些配合疫調的工作。"],["陳委員瑩：為什麼養殖場有加熱的話，仍會有存活的病毒？"],["彭部長啓明：如果有按照規定90度以上1個小時就沒有這個病毒的存在，但是我們按照他的申報紀錄，很有可能是蒸煮不確實，也有可能是這樣的原因造成。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們平常在提供廚餘的同時有加強宣導如何有效的加熱減毒嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有一個申報系統，當然它是一個輔助工具，因為申報都要有溫度計在旁邊，然後我們也會知道日期是什麼時候，如果申報不確實、有落下的話，下個月我們就會發文給環保局去稽核。"],["陳委員瑩：因為看起來目前臺灣狀況是比較緊張一點，這樣比較消極的處理方式，我覺得在短期內我們可以稍微……"],["彭部長啓明：更積極。"],["陳委員瑩：對，有效且積極的宣導。我們是不是還有其他的養豬場使用你們提供的廚餘？"],["彭部長啓明：有，總共四百多家，委員是說梧棲的養豬場？"],["陳委員瑩：就國內其他的養豬場。"],["彭部長啓明：有435家。"],["陳委員瑩：435家，所以這個部分，我想也應該要一併加強宣導豬隻安全使用廚餘的資訊。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我們現在還有五千多家養豬場沒有感染，建議你們真的是要跟時間賽跑，趕快去宣導，甚至要補貼低利貸款加熱設備的購置。有些小型的養殖戶，如果你們以兩百頭作為一個標準，其實我們臺東很多都沒有到兩百頭，自己蒐集廚餘來養豬，如果可以的話也請你們提供必要的協助。特別是南部、東部地區的養殖個體戶，雖然有時候地方政府可能禁止廚餘養豬，但是有很多的個體戶或小型戶還是會有這樣的情形。","在臺灣廚餘的利用是流動的，而且是跨縣市的，所以不分政府搜集或自己搜集廚餘，也沒有分大型專業養豬場或小型的個體戶。只要有使用廚餘，透過人車的移動，都有可能造成防疫的破口，所以環境部應該透過你們更有效的政策工具來協助業者，讓廚餘更安全地被使用。特別是養豬場的蒸煮廚餘用在飼料上，都需要經過地方環保主管機關核可，使用特定的設備蒸煮，並且要受到政府的督導、監管，不知道我提這個意見部長認不認同？"],["彭部長啓明：認同，我們會來研究，因為農業部他們規定是兩百頭以上的豬才可以用廚餘蒸煮，至於低於這個數字的話目前不行，但是未來或許有一些集中蒸煮場……"],["陳委員瑩：這跟國內食用豬隻跟養殖的習慣還是有關係，所以我想這個就不要特別再去做這樣的區分。"],["彭部長啓明：好的委員，我們會來研究一下。"],["陳委員瑩：我想最後利用一點點時間，因為8月7日本席跟莊瑞雄委員、王正旭委員，還有林月琴委員到蘭嶼考察，關心了垃圾倉儲貯存廠還有資源回收物清運的問題，因為貯存廠要等臺中縣政府處理用地的問題，所以我先關心一下資源回收清運的部分。因為蘭嶼是離島，所以它的垃圾都需要船隻特別運到臺灣來，成本相當高。我想這不是鄉公所或縣政府可以負擔得起的，所以非常需要中央的協助。","今年經費只剩下21萬元，但是還有成山成堆的垃圾，這個部分不曉得環境部這邊能夠提供什麼樣的協助？因為上次有講到，目前為止進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個案子我有特別關注，目前的程序是我們循環署這邊已經審核，還沒有簽到我這邊，但是應該會有很好的消息，也謝謝委員提出這樣的想法，我們會照委員的建議來實施。"],["陳委員瑩：所以他們目前經費的規模？"],["彭部長啓明：九百多萬，沒有問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那也拜託部長可以趕快蓋章。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請陳素月委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51a07d7af644573b8f14a9ab9b55a87a24c51656f8b51a994a3dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:27:17 - 11:40:51","影片長度":"00:13:34","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:27:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:40:51+08:00","duration":814,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.09409375,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.33846875,"end":4.384718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.09721875,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.278468750000002,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.53846875,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.22346875000001,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.35409375,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.45721875000001,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.79159375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.98971875,"end":182.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.11284375,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.33346875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.41284375,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.42971875,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.74096875,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.79096875000002,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.85721875000002,"end":194.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.64596875,"end":195.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.19846875000002,"end":200.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.15596875,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.69159375,"end":207.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.55971875,"end":216.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.84534375,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.90846875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.29909375000003,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.31596875000002,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.12096875,"end":234.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.14159375000003,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.83721875,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.65284375000005,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.49346875000003,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.48909375,"end":289.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.98596875000004,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.58909375,"end":330.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.09221875000003,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.33534375,"end":320.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.12784375,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.70971875000004,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.76409375000003,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.37534375,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.06221875,"end":353.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.22034375000004,"end":434.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.77471875000003,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.10159375,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.02971875000003,"end":444.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.45096875,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.23284375000003,"end":463.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.46034375000005,"end":465.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.54471875,"end":465.61221875},{"speaker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我們先請彭部長再請彭部長"},{"start":8.58,"end":32.159,"text":"黃國元好部長好 部長從這幾天大家一直在關心就是說這個非洲豬瘟的事情那我也看到就是說昨天這個養豬就是工會這邊的這個不論是各縣市的工會 養豬協會或者是全國聯合會他們也共同來立法院這邊來陳情"},{"start":33.92,"end":62.799,"text":"那其中有一部分我想請教部長就是說我們既然目前雖然現在因為產生非洲豬瘟所以目前是全部禁止這個廚餘養豬那未來未來是不是有可能就是說到底這個廚餘是要繼續來養豬或者是要做其他的堆肥或者是這個豔陽發酵或是做其他的這種"},{"start":66.163,"end":80.701,"text":"這個乾燥之後然後也可以再做其他的這個再利用所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分真的中央真的要好好去思考一下那既然就是說非洲豬瘟在台中這邊已經產生了"},{"start":81.101,"end":106.754,"text":"那我覺得看到廚餘前幾天我看到那個台中市把廚餘全部倒到那個坑裡面其實大家覺得怎麼還是用這樣的方式去處理這個廚餘那之前我在當招委的時候跟那個我們有排到地方去看用黑水盲去處理廚餘那也另外一方面就是說我們廚餘也可以乾燥之後"},{"start":107.774,"end":126.89,"text":"乾燥之後然後又可以當成飼料就是類似這樣的一個狀況那未來我不知道說環境部針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理或怎麼去精進要不然如果說每天產生的廚餘這麼多那如果照現在這個狀況還是用掩埋的其實對整個環境是惡度傷害"},{"start":127.871,"end":150.686,"text":"是不是請部長先回答這個關於這個黑水盲啊或是肥料或是各種的這個生殖能其實他我們現在其實其實我們在之前就有一些想法希望鼓勵這個這個產業可以發展起來解決我們的垃圾還有廚餘的問題所以的確我們現在兩個階段一個短期間內的短時間的去化第二個呢就是在這個15天或是未來"},{"start":151.286,"end":175.363,"text":"如何去处理这个厨余我们的确是在思考已经在讨论密集的在讨论这个问题那不过因为我们现在都在忙这个去化短时间的所以那个可能要再一点点的时间但是也跟委员报告因为我们过去都是靠养猪然后来处理我们这个厨余所以它的成本是很低的那未来呢如果变成黑水盲或是说生殖能等等那个就会变成一个成本了"},{"start":175.683,"end":194.769,"text":"所以這個社會的接受度或是整個社會的體系整個生態系有沒有辦法完成這個是我們現在也在評估的點另外就是說這些廚餘因為都湯湯水水有沒有可能先用脫水的方式先脫水方式然後先去處理或是先乾燥我不知道說你們未來要怎麼去處理"},{"start":195.789,"end":218.701,"text":"所以我覺得說這個其實對整個環境我那天看到整個用掩埋的方式那都是湯湯水水那對我們的整個環境不會有二度傷害嗎對 報告委員那個湯湯水水是不好所以我們一直在一開始就鼓勵各縣市環保局一起來鼓勵民眾能夠先立竿是先立竿來我們再副署長是"},{"start":219.741,"end":239.71,"text":"跟委員報告我們補助各縣市的處理設施處理處理設施它在前面都有一個破碎拖水設備誠如委員講的這個灘灘水水太多對後面的堆毀效果是不好的所以我們有補助地方做破碎拖水設備我看到台中市政府"},{"start":240.885,"end":256.663,"text":"一車一車的這樣往那個坑裡面倒我都覺得他到底有沒有先把這個湯湯水水的東西把它瀝乾我覺得後續可能你們要再去監測整個這幾個地方未來現在是一個垃圾坑未來可能會變成一個這個廚餘山"},{"start":259.727,"end":288.849,"text":"那當然我剛剛有看到新聞就是說台中市政府有先進就是說再把廚餘再往那個坑裡面去倒那後續我覺得說應該環境部應該也可以去協調其他縣市如果他們還有餘裕的話那個處理廚餘還有能力的話是不是也要來協助其他縣市這個可以來一同處理現在目前最急迫的這個廚餘的這個問題是不是可以請環境部一起來協助"},{"start":289.65,"end":315.449,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實台中的這個事情其實從禮拜天我們一直關注到現在我特別 因為他的堆肥跟掩埋他的方式比較不符合我們環境部在這一次定下的指引所以他們也從善如流 遵照我們的意見在這兩天也做出改善昨天我們也派人去他的四個掩埋場去做他也進行了一個顯著的修正那我也特別請我們的環管署署長"},{"start":316.369,"end":330.687,"text":"主動質疑環保局局長說如果台中需要幫忙的話我們環境部可以來協助是不是其他縣市可以調度雖然其他縣市壓力也很大但是我們發揮這個同島一命的精神協助來處理的確我們主動的有表達這樣的意思"},{"start":331.767,"end":352.497,"text":"我們希望就是說環境部這邊應該要來協助另外就是說大家關心的就是說這個豬農他沒有上傳一些真主的一些照片或資料當時台中市政府說沒有罰則可是我們環境部說可以用廢清法去處罰所以我是覺得說"},{"start":354.358,"end":369.63,"text":"如果確實他們沒有把這個資料上傳的話那真的是違法那有什麼樣的方式那如果說照台中市來講就是說這個沒有上傳也不違法那你要怎麼去後面後續再去精進"},{"start":371.171,"end":396.496,"text":"當然就是說未來如果你還要再用廚餘去養豬的話就會有衍生這樣的問題那未來如果沒有廚餘再進到這個養豬場那就不會有類似這個狀況所以我希望就是說不論是環境部或者是農業部真的事情已經發生了那我們未來要怎麼去改進去精進我覺得這個是你們現在要去趕快去釐清的"},{"start":397.196,"end":411.608,"text":"未來在這個11月7號好像11月7號就可以這個肉品市場就可以拍賣這個豬隻然後目前他們是這樣子說那如果是11月7號可以拍賣可以開始這個豬隻可以運載"},{"start":416.011,"end":439.383,"text":"這個運來運去的話或者是拍賣的話那以後我們的傳統市場或者是我們的市場就可以再這個買到豬肉那我覺得說類似這樣的問題真的要趕快去解決另外我想請教那個農業部的這個部長就是說喂好"},{"start":440.08,"end":457.636,"text":"部長我想請教就是說現在我們這個豬農他現在我們講就是說你剛講的不論是白豬黑豬都可以用廚餘來養豬那就是說要怎麼去防堵這個疫情的發生最主要就是要徵足"},{"start":458.737,"end":478.759,"text":"可能就是說要珍珠可能要幾度然後要多少時間才會將這個病毒殺死那未來就是如果還要繼續廚餘養豬的話我不知道說你們到底會禁多久你們這個禁止廚餘養豬你們到底會禁多久"},{"start":480.6,"end":490.306,"text":"先跟我們說明我們現在做兩樣錯誤就是禁運禁宅另外一個禁止廚餘養豬禁運禁宅會等到我們專家會確認乾淨的時候就會解開廚餘的部分"},{"start":495.089,"end":522.903,"text":"还要多一道手续因为现在都没有办法进到养猪场里面去做检查所以除养猪的部分我们第一个要先确认他的所有的征主设备是属于安全的属于可以去做管理的刚才委员也特别强调落实征主还有落实我们的稽查这两个东西要扣在一起以后确定他不会再有这样的一个遗漏的时候我们才会再再度开放"},{"start":523.303,"end":546.474,"text":"部长我想请教因为现在除了有弄养好几百头猪的好几千头猪的也有那一种几十头的可能十几头二十几头的这一种比较小场的这种养猪场你怎么去管理这些这么小的小场的这种养猪场有的才养十几头他原本就是用珍珠"},{"start":546.954,"end":571.143,"text":"就是漆 這個是廚餘嗎200頭 我們現在就是廚餘不能養豬但是廚餘要養豬的時候有一些條件你才能夠用廚餘養豬就是200頭以上的然後你有蒸煮設備蒸煮設備要90度C一個小時的蒸煮你才能夠養豬那這個部分就在環境部的這個檢查那個蒸煮的條件有規範那未來如果說這種"},{"start":572.924,"end":601.659,"text":"我相信部長你也知道有一些鄭咖 鄭咖偉後院養的這個這個是我們是也會跟地方政府或是什麼去聯合稽查以前早期可能有現在比較沒有因為在家裡養豬鄉下地方其實現在也不像那麼空曠了所以只要有人養豬的時候那個豬叫聲或什麼很容易造成一些民眾的檢舉所以這種後院自己養豬的情況會已經比較少了但是我們也會落實這些稽查"},{"start":602.619,"end":619.37,"text":"就是說鄉下地方可能比較空曠有的他還是會零星養豬那他有的就真的就是用廚餘去飼養所以類似這個狀況我們也希望就是說地方政府也要這個確實去稽查那不然其實這個也是一個破口"},{"start":620.03,"end":648.429,"text":"對 這個就是一個非常重要就是廚醫本身養豬不是壞事你只要落實我們的徵主條件落實我們的稽查那就沒什麼問題是 好那部長我再請教就是說我們現在的這個獸醫的這個制度其實有很多新的這個畜牧場他可能在剛開始申請的時候他會有特醫的這個特約的獸醫師那也許特約一年或兩年好 特約時間過了之後可能就沒有就這個獸醫師可能"},{"start":649.89,"end":670.548,"text":"就特約就沒了嘛那這個也是一個破口這也會變成一個破口就是說原本這個養豬場他有特約可能為了就是說檢查或者是為了申請那這個時間過了之後沒這個特約的收益師那我們也看到就是說有的有特約他可能一年就是說給這個收益師幾千塊"},{"start":673.23,"end":701.542,"text":"我不知道就是特約的這個費用這個費用真的很少那所以我覺得說這個部分未來我們環境部我們這個農業部要怎麼去處理這個受益師的這個區塊我想非常謝謝委員的提醒在這次疫調的過程在這次我們防疫的過程中我們也發現到類似這樣的一個現象那比較大廠的部分他有一個專業的受益師但是有一些中小廠的部分他用特約受益師他也不是每天來上班的方式"},{"start":703.874,"end":731.062,"text":"久了以後可能每個豬農認為自己自己都可以當醫生了所以用到這個特別醫生可能會頻率少所以我覺得這個東西我們一定要重新建立一個很完整的一個機制包括特約收益師跟跟畜牧場的關係包括他的價格的合理化有沒有他的價格合理化我想這個東西我們在疫調的過程看到一些問題我們都把它記錄下來那也謝謝委員提醒我們這個部分我想在疫情比較稍緩的時候我們就會來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":733.503,"end":754.835,"text":"我們當然就是希望就是說這個疫情能夠得到控制那獸醫師其實一個非常重要我們也看到這個台中這個場獸醫師他到底有沒有到現場去看或者是直接用電話直接投藥或者是用什麼樣的方式所以就會讓人家覺得說那這個獸醫師的這個制度確實也出現了一些問題"},{"start":756.216,"end":777.571,"text":"對 那有關於這個部分因為現在疫調還在調查過程中我不做任何的評論但是我們的目標就是找到可能的來源然後也藉由這個機會去了解我們過去在整個防疫的系統裡面有哪一些必須要改進的那我們要趁這個機會能夠改進了以後我想我們才能夠去抵擋下一波的一個問題"},{"start":778.291,"end":796.99,"text":"好 那我們希望就是說要去檢討落實獸醫師的這個制度那另外就是說也讓這些獸醫師願意留在地方當然就是說剛剛部長有特別提到就是說我們有獸醫不開業的這個獎金那當然這個也是一個鼓勵讓他們留在這個場域裡面工作"},{"start":798.471,"end":810.402,"text":"應該也要再去討論一下 到底這個跟畜牧場的這個合約 到底它的這個價格到底是合理或不合理我覺得這應該 制度應該也要再去檢討一下我們一起回來檢討 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時27分）謝謝主席，先請彭部長。"],["主席：再請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，這幾天大家一直在關心非洲豬瘟的事情，我看到昨天不論是各縣市的公會、養豬協會或者是全國聯合會，他們也共同來立法院這邊陳情，其中有一部分我想請教部長，現在因為產生非洲豬瘟，所以目前是全部禁止廚餘養豬，未來是不是有可能繼續用廚餘來養豬，或者是要做其他的堆肥，或者是厭氧發酵，或是乾燥之後做其他的再利用，我希望針對這一部分，中央真的要好好去思考一下。","既然非洲豬瘟在臺中這邊已經產生了，前幾天我看到臺中市把廚餘全部倒到那個坑裡面，其實大家覺得怎麼還是用這樣的方式去處理廚餘？之前我在當召委的時候，我們也有排考察到地方去看用黑水虻來處理廚餘，另外一方面，廚餘也可以在乾燥之後當成飼料，類似這樣的狀況，那未來我不知道環境部針對這一部分要怎麼去處理或怎麼去精進，要不然每天產生的廚餘這麼多，如果照現在這個狀況還是用掩埋的，其實對整個環境是二度傷害，是不是請部長先回答？"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，關於黑水虻或是肥料，或是各種的生質能，其實我們在之前就有一些想法，希望鼓勵這個產業可以發展起來，解決我們的垃圾還有廚餘的問題，所以的確，我們現在有兩個階段，一個是短期間內的，短時間的去化；第二個就是在15天或是未來如何去處理廚餘，我們的確正在思考，已經密集地在討論這個問題，不過因為我們現在都在忙短時間的去化，所以那個可能要再一點點的時間。","但是也跟委員報告，因為我們過去都是靠養豬來處理廚餘，它的成本是很低的，未來如果變成黑水虻或是生質能等等，那就會變成一個成本，所以社會的接受度或是整個社會體系，整個生態系有沒有辦法完成，這個是我們現在也在評估的點。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。另外，這些廚餘因為都是湯湯水水，有沒有可能先用脫水的方式去處理，或是先乾燥，我不知道你們未來要怎麼去處理啦！我覺得這其實對整個環境……"],["彭部長啓明：是，危害很大。"],["黃委員秀芳：我那天看到整個用掩埋的方式，那都是湯湯水水，對我們整個環境不會有二度傷害嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，那個湯湯水水是不好，所以我們一開始就鼓勵各縣市環保局一起來鼓勵民眾能夠先瀝乾。"],["林副署長左祥：跟委員報告，我們補助各縣市的廚餘處理設施，它在前面都會有一個破碎脫水設備，誠如委員講的，廚餘的湯湯水水太多，對後面堆肥的效果是不好的，所以我們有補助地方做破碎脫水設備。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。我看到臺中市政府一車一車的往那個坑裡面倒，我都覺得他們到底有沒有先把湯湯水水的東西瀝乾，後續可能你們要再去監測這幾個地方，現在是一個垃圾坑，未來可能會變成一個廚餘山。當然我剛剛有看到新聞，臺中市政府有先禁止再把廚餘往那個坑裡面倒，後續我覺得環境部應該可以去協調其他縣市，如果他們還有餘裕，處理廚餘還有能力的話，是不是也要來協助其他縣市，一同來處理目前最急迫的廚餘問題？是不是可以請環境部一起來協助？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，其實臺中這件事情，我們從禮拜天一直關注到現在，因為它的堆肥跟掩埋的方式比較不符合我們環境部在這一次定下的指引，所以他們也從善如流，遵照我們的意見，在這兩天也做出改善，昨天我們也派人到四個掩埋場去，他們也進行了顯著的修正。我也特別請環管署署長主動諮議環保局局長，如果臺中需要幫忙的話，我們環境部可以來協助，是不是跟其他縣市來調度，雖然其他縣市的壓力也很大，但是我們發揮同島一命的精神來協助處理，我們的確有主動表達這樣的意思。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望環境部這邊應該要來協助。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，大家關心這個豬農沒有上傳一些蒸煮的照片或資料，當時臺中市政府說沒有罰則，可是環境部說可以用廢清法去處罰，我是覺得如果確實他們沒有把資料上傳的話，那真的是違法，有什麼樣的方式可以來處理？如果照臺中市所講，沒有上傳也不違法，那你後續要怎麼去精進？當然未來如果你還要再用廚餘去養豬的話，就會衍生這樣的問題嘛！但未來如果沒有廚餘再進到養豬場，就不會有類似的狀況，所以我希望不論是環境部或者是農業部，既然事情已經發生了，未來要怎麼去改進、去精進，我覺得這個是你們現在要趕快去釐清的。","未來好像在11月7日肉品市場就可以拍賣豬隻，目前他們是這樣子說，如果11月7日就可以拍賣，豬隻可以運來運去的話，以後我們的傳統市場或者是市場就可以再買到豬肉，我覺得類似這樣的問題真的要趕快去解決。","另外，我想請教農業部部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教，現在我們的豬農，你剛剛講不論是白豬、黑豬都可以用廚餘來養豬，要防堵疫情的發生最主要就是廚餘要蒸煮，蒸煮可能要幾度，然後要多少時間才會將這個病毒殺死。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：未來如果還要繼續廚餘養豬的話，我不知道你們到底會禁多久，禁止廚餘養豬你們到底會禁多久？先請部長回復。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個先跟委員說明，我們現在做兩樣作為，一個就是禁運禁宰，另外一個是禁止廚餘養豬，禁運禁宰會等到我們專家會議確認乾淨的時候就會解開。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在他們是說……"],["陳部長駿季：廚餘的部分還要多一道手續，因為現在都沒有辦法進到養豬場裡面去做檢查，所以廚餘養豬的部分，我們第一個要先確認他們所有的蒸煮設備是安全的，屬於可以去做管理的，剛才委員也特別強調要落實蒸煮，還有落實我們的稽查，這兩個東西要扣在一起以後，確定不會再有遺漏的時候，我們才會再度開放。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，我想請教，因為現在除了有那種養好幾百頭豬、好幾千頭豬的，也有那種幾十頭的，可能十幾頭、二十幾頭的這種比較小場的養豬場，那你怎麼去管理這些小場的養豬場？有的才養十幾頭，它原本就是餵蒸煮的廚餘嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不行，我們現在就是廚餘不能養豬，但是廚餘要養豬的時候，有一些條件才能夠用廚餘養豬，就是200頭以上的，然後要有蒸煮設備，廚餘要經過90°C、一個小時的蒸煮才能夠養豬，這個部分在環境部的蒸煮條件中規範。"],["黃委員秀芳：我相信部長你也知道，有一些鄉下……"],["陳部長駿季：鄉下有的在後院有養，這個我們也會跟地方政府或是什麼去聯合稽查，以前早期可能有，現在比較沒有，因為在家裡養豬，鄉下地方其實現在也沒有那麼空曠了，所以只要有人養豬的時候，那個豬叫聲很容易造成一些民眾的檢舉，像這種後院自己養豬的情況已經比較少了，但是我們也會落實這些稽查。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，因為鄉下地方可能比較空曠，有的還是會零星養豬，有的就真的是用廚餘去飼養，類似的狀況我們也希望地方政府要確實去稽查，不然這個其實也是一個破口。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個非常重要，廚餘養豬本身不是壞事，只要落實我們的蒸煮條件，落實我們的稽查，那就沒什麼問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。部長，我再請教現在的獸醫制度，其實有很多新的畜牧場可能在剛開始申請的時候會有特約的獸醫師，也許特約一年或兩年，等特約時間過了之後，這個獸醫師可能特約就沒有了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：這也是一個破口，這也會變成一個破口，就是說原本這個養豬場它有特約……"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能為了檢查或者是為了申請，在這個時間過了之後就沒有特約的獸醫師。我們也看到有的有特約，他可能一年給這個獸醫師幾千塊，我不知道特約的費用，這個費用真的很少，所以我覺得這個部分，未來農業部要怎麼去處理獸醫師這個區塊？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的提醒，在這次疫調的過程中，在這次防疫的過程中，我們也發現到類似的現象，比較大場的部分它有一個專業的獸醫師，但是有一些中小場的部分是用特約獸醫師，他也不是每天來上班的方式，久了以後可能每個豬農認為自己都可以當醫生了，所以用到特約醫生的頻率可能會減少。我覺得這個東西一定要重新建立一個很完整的機制，包括特約獸醫師與畜牧場的關係，包括價格合理化，我們在疫調的過程中看到一些問題，我們都把它記錄下來，也謝謝委員提醒，這個部分在疫情比較稍緩的時候，我們就會來做處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們當然希望疫情能夠得到控制，獸醫師其實非常重要，我們也看到臺中這個場，獸醫師他到底有沒有到現場去看，或者是用電話直接投藥，或者是用什麼樣的方式，所以就會讓人家覺得這個獸醫師的制度確實出現了一些問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，有關於這個部分，因為現在疫調還在調查過程中，我不做任何的評論，但是我們的目標就是找到可能的來源，然後也藉由這個機會，去了解我們過去在整個防疫系統裡面有哪些必須改進的，我們要趁這個機會改進，以後才能去抵擋下一波的問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望要去檢討、落實獸醫師的制度。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們一定會。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外就是說也讓這些獸醫師願意留在地方，剛剛部長有特別提到有獸醫不開業獎金，當然這也是一個鼓勵，讓他們留在這個場域裡面工作。應該也要再去討論一下，到底跟畜牧場的合約價格合理不合理，我覺得制度應該也要再去檢討一下。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會一起檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。接下來請陳瑩委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51940c2ed0c650a814b08d4a2736e01e2bc51656f8b51a994a575f0c0cec024c425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:47:07 - 11:52:01","影片長度":"00:04:54","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:47:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:52:01+08:00","duration":294,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.22409375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.98659375,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.508468750000002,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.13596875,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.15221875,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.88971875,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.04534375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.157218750000006,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.26159375,"end":66.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.29534375,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.64096875,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.15971875000001,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.76721875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.67846875000001,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.97721875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.95596875000001,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.17534375000001,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.93471875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.99284375,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.41409375,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.14721875000001,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.45096875,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.28909375,"end":103.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.53346875000001,"end":117.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.97784375,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.66971875,"end":126.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.94784375,"end":128.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.88784375,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.86659375000002,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.23284375,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.28346875,"end":142.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.92346875,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.90971875,"end":156.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.94346875000002,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.55909375000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.68284375000002,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.07909375,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.49659375000002,"end":181.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.54721875,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.62284375000002,"end":188.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.71534375000002,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.59659375,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.63846875000002,"end":189.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.64221875,"end":194.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.04721875,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.44784375,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.80909375000002,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.96909375,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.29346875000002,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.47846875000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.58784375000002,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.70596875,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.79034375,"end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麻煩請海巡署我們請海巡署副署長 謝謝委員好副署長 是我想因為我們今天其實也有討論到就是要修那個有關於是不是要再提高就是比如扣留船隻或者是相關的一些法令那我們先來看一些數據好不好這個數據是像我們很多像電纜"},{"start":34.349,"end":54.884,"text":"還有其他的管線被破壞的狀況其實除了我們透過修法的方式來改善之外還有什麼其他方式可以改善目前我們是預防跟執法並重比方說中華電信它是目的世界主管機關它有告警系統"},{"start":56.409,"end":78.186,"text":"如果有商貨輪在我們海南區左右海面一公里滯留或是慢速它會自動告知不好意思 那個主旗時間可不可以暫停一下是電腦設備有問題來因為我要我們要把我們時間先暫停設備好 可以那個可以了嗎這個是可以這個是我們去2023年就是到2025年的一些我們電纜被"},{"start":83.604,"end":103.831,"text":"破壞的或者是斷裂的狀況2023年2月它是有斷裂然後2025年1月它是老化還有1月還有被國際的海瀾疑似被貨輪拖斷然後另外還有地震的關係像這些其實有的是老化或各方面的問題其實這些問題要怎麼解決"},{"start":106.316,"end":127.27,"text":"現在是這樣如果是說有外力介入斷裂的話那我們都視同國安案件接到中華電信通報之後我們會回放我們雷達航機如果在海上允許跟可以辨識的話我們第一時間會請示檢察官原則上我們優先代案回港口然後移送偵辦好 那"},{"start":128.951,"end":156.773,"text":"如果說現在已經有這個方法的話那現在修法的原因到底是什麼是有什麼問題是沒辦法解決的這個修法是這樣我們這次修法三大目標第一個嚴刑重罰對我知道因為包括過世犯所以我的問題是這樣子就是說如果我們透過修法那之前發生這些問題都不會再發生嗎可以發揮有效的嚇阻作用嚇阻跟國研報告我們以前馬祖的抽砂損非常嚴重111年我們就修正土石"},{"start":157.634,"end":180.96,"text":"采取网还有专注经纪还有网我们提高行则另外呢所有的船舶不问是不是所有人所有都可以没收为什么因为以前的话船长说这个船不是他的是老板的所以不能没入没收那现在这个我们严刑重网而且我先讲我们这一次修法不用讲到之前这一次修法有什么是"},{"start":182.161,"end":209.384,"text":"修法之後以前不能做的現在可以做的是 第一個我說針對之前已經曾經發生過的罪案第一個五大管線的話所有的過失犯預定過失犯都要處罰對 所以他會更小心嗎是這個意思嗎這樣的話過失犯的話不管是怎樣那個我們看那個你們那個海委會的主委他講了一句話我也不是很懂他講說這個這次修法以後如果假設有一些船隻進到我們的領海"},{"start":210.365,"end":227.862,"text":"然後結果如果他沒有去開那個識別系統我們發現異常我們就可以驅離對不對 這個是你們主委講的嘛是這是我要報告的然後那我想問一下啦在現在的法律的規範底下如果有其他國家或不明傳之進入到我們的領海的話我們是不能驅離嗎目前沒有發生規定"},{"start":228.803,"end":256.965,"text":"目前沒有法則規定無害通過目前我們臨海及臨界區法有規範不得違反無害通過但是沒有任何法則所以外海很多滯留的船舶我們驅離完之後驅離復返目前沒有法則現在海南七法的船舶法第89 第一項有規定如果不開AIS的話我們會處罰行政法是所以之前你就是讓他"},{"start":258.386,"end":275.231,"text":"以前你們就是政府一直講說國安問題這麼嚴重這麼多年了所以到所以之前都是讓他這樣子通過然後沒有覺得議場也不能驅離喔以前我們的國安漏洞是這麼大我們驅離可以驅離我們海軍組到現場他驅離到我們領海外都會但是都會趨而復返"},{"start":277.412,"end":291.422,"text":"沒有罰則沒有罰則所以以前我們國安的漏洞是大到這種地步變成海巡署費非常辛苦所以我們抗中保台這麼多年你到現在才要補這個洞我們現在從法律面機制面包括跨部會我們全面修補漏洞謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時47分）麻煩請海巡署。"],["主席：請海巡署副署長，謝謝。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：副署長，其實我們今天也有討論到要修是不是要再提高比如說扣留船隻等相關的法令，我們先來看一些數據，這個數據是關於我們很多像電纜以及其他管線被破壞的狀況，我們除了可以透過修法的方式來改善之外，還有什麼其他方式可以改善？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前我們是預防跟執法並做，比方說中華電信是目的事業主管機關，它有告警系統，如果有商貨輪在我們海纜區左右海面一公里滯留，或是慢速航行，它會自動告警……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，主席，時間可不可以暫停一下？因為電腦設備有問題。"],["主席：好，時間先暫停。"],["葉委員元之：可以、可以。"],["主席：可以了嗎？"],["葉委員元之：可以了。這個是2023年到2025年我們電纜被破壞或者是斷裂的狀況，2023年2月它是有斷裂，2025年1月它是老化，同年1月還有國際的海纜疑似被貨輪拖斷，另外還有地震的關係。像這些，其實有的是老化或各方面的問題，請問這些問題要怎麼解決？"],["謝副署長慶欽：現在是這樣，如果是因為有外力介入而斷裂的話，都視同國安案件，接到中華電信通報之後，我們會回放雷達航跡。如果海象允許以及可以辨識，我們第一時間會請示檢察官，原則上優先辦案，回港口然後移送偵辦。"],["葉委員元之：如果現在已經有這個方法，那麼修法的原因到底是什麼？是不是有什麼問題沒辦法解決？"],["謝副署長慶欽：修法有三大目標，第一是嚴刑重罰……"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為包括過失犯。"],["葉委員元之：我的問題是這樣：如果透過修法處理，之前發生的這些問題都不會再發生嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：可以發揮有效的嚇阻作用。"],["葉委員元之：嚇阻？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，以前馬祖抽砂船問題非常嚴重，111年我們修正土石採取法、專屬經濟海域法提高刑責。另外，所有船舶不問是不是行為人所有，都可以沒收，為什麼？因為以前如果船長說這艘船不是他的而是老闆的，就不能沒入、沒收，現在則要嚴刑重罰，而且，如果……"],["葉委員元之：我現在是講這次修法啦！不用講到之前。這次修法之後有什麼是以前不能做，而現在可以做的？我都針對之前已經、曾經發生的個案。"],["謝副署長慶欽：第一，針對五大管線，所有律定過失犯都要處罰。"],["葉委員元之：所以他會更小心，你是這個意思嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這樣的話，不管過失犯是什麼樣……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係。","你們海委會主委講了一句話，我也不很懂啦！他說這次修法以後，假設有一些船隻進到我們的領海沒有開識別系統，只要我們發現異常就可以驅離。對不對？這是你們主委講的嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，這是我要報告的第……"],["葉委員元之：好，那我想問一下啦！在現在的法律規範底下，如果有其他國家或不明船隻進入我們的領海，我們不能驅離嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前沒有罰則規定。"],["葉委員元之：啊？"],["謝副署長慶欽：針對無害通過，目前的領海及鄰接區法規範不得違反無害通過，但是沒有任何罰則，所以外海很多滯留船舶在我們驅離完成後復返，因為目前沒有罰則。現在的海纜七法中，船舶法第八十九條第一項則規定，如果不開AIS的話，會處以行政罰。"],["葉委員元之：所以之前你們就是讓它……之前政府一直講國安問題這麼嚴重，但這麼多年了，你們之前都是讓它這樣通過，覺得異常也不能驅離喔？以前我們的國安漏洞這麼大喔？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們可以驅離，海巡署會到現場驅離到領海外、都會……"],["葉委員元之：都會嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：但是都趨而復返，也沒有罰則。"],["葉委員元之：沒有罰則？所以我們以前的國安漏洞大到這種地步？"],["謝副署長慶欽：海巡署會非常辛苦，而效果有限。"],["葉委員元之：我們抗中保臺那麼多年，到現在才要補這個洞？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們現在從法律面、機制面，包括跨部會，全面修補漏洞。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢、謝謝副署長。","現在請林倩綺委員。林倩綺委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51a33ad73e93ab4f5cd0e1721cc507f77ac51656f8b51a994aa5ef969bfb1957e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:35:44 - 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因為現在狀況很嚴重"},{"start":182.302,"end":202.215,"text":"三個月啦 三個月太久了啦因為那個人事長平常不是 這個直系的東西不是地方可以決定的啦這是第一件事情第二件事情行政 現在缺行政職其實很多人在說要提高行政家級那這個部分其實已經講很久"},{"start":203.095,"end":213.745,"text":"那我是有看到考試院有發一個新聞啦可能人事總處也有建議啦就是我們現在要平衡中央跟地方嘛所以要調整地方機關的3500個職務讓他可以提高一個職等嘛對吧"},{"start":215.061,"end":239.53,"text":"職等大概原來有7-8會整個調到8-9所以其實我建議可以比照這種做法因為你們的出發點很好就是地方機關有時候找人不容易很多人都要往中央去跑就是因為職等比較低所以現在要平衡這件事情同樣的像我也覺得在學校裡面的校長主任職等很低現在校長如果領行政家級的話職等是多少"},{"start":242.338,"end":253.736,"text":"小學是不是兼任九職等兼任九職等你看喔 一個學校的校長喔校長喔他的職等才兼任九職等高中是兼任十職等嘛對吧"},{"start":256.566,"end":275.334,"text":"那當然嘛那以一個學校校長都才兼任90等那人事長不覺得很不尊重教育嗎不重視教育嗎重視教育那謝謝就像你重視地方機關一樣你現在要調整中央跟地方的值等讓他們比較平衡我覺得"},{"start":276.354,"end":293.202,"text":"也應該要調整學校的行政職的職等校長主任都往上提高那提高的話他的行政佳績就會提高嘛那這是一個尊重第二個當然是待遇也提高不然的話現在在學校也沒有人要真的很少人要兼行政才會出現我剛剛講的狀況啦人事長你重視教育嗎"},{"start":299.344,"end":325.099,"text":"那就不要口慧食不治好不好這件事情既然可以做到地方的職等提高我覺得教育行政職等提高也是應該要做第三件事情我們現在在學校裡面有非常多處學務處教務處輔導室總務處那您知道在學校裡面只有哪幾個組長是可以由公務人員來兼嗎您知道嗎三個就是總務處下面三個組長可以兼"},{"start":326.277,"end":348.934,"text":"那我現在不懂的是說那人事總署跟教育部都會規定說要有老師來兼的原因是因為老師有教學經驗嘛所以有些組長他可能要有教學經驗的組長去兼他比較了解怎麼去規劃學校的相關行政事務嘛應該是這樣嘛出發點應該是這樣嘛對吧這個我可以接受所以所有的組長一開都找老師"},{"start":349.966,"end":374.709,"text":"但是老師找不到 代理助長找不到 代理老師找不到的情況之下有一些組 實際上他不見得需要教學經驗的人來做嘛舉例來講 像教務處 教務處你說教學組那當然要有教學經驗對不對 但是如果註冊組或者是輔導室的一些其他的相關的 譬如說資訊組這為什麼一定要有教學經驗的人來兼呢"},{"start":376.65,"end":398.74,"text":"這個可能也牽涉到學校的資訊教育的好沒關係你去盤點嘛你說一定要教學經驗的來做那你就按照原來的規劃但是如果有的實際上不見得一定要老師在兼而現在學校已經缺行政職缺到這麼嚴重的地步我剛剛已經講過案例了嘛那為什麼不能做一些調整呢"},{"start":399.66,"end":412.285,"text":"這很僵化 我們政府很僵化就是不會說遇到問題去調整體制就是既有的體制一直做到底即便是遇到問題好像當沒看到那這是一個負責任的解決問題的政府嗎 任市長"},{"start":413.649,"end":437.96,"text":"我想我會把委員的意見轉請教育部整體來沒有 這個有關於人事任用教育部有時候就會推給人事總署嘛這個乾燥人事總署的規劃我們一起處理 我們一起對啊 你推給他 他推給你問題就永遠存在嘛不是啦 我跟你講 人事長因為剛剛那個 昭緯有指示啊分配不能太大但是你的回應真的讓人家覺得很官僚啦"},{"start":438.993,"end":468.23,"text":"你就一直去扯教育部如果一個勇於任事的人事長發現這個問題教育體制的人事任用出現這個問題就會說哇 我很重視教育我要趕快去跟教育部我們一起研商出一個解決教育現場問題的方法但是我沒有看到你的態度欸然後我剛剛第一時間 我的態度跟委員一樣我第一時間跟你講說問題已經嚴重到就是有一公立老師他缺公立高中缺行政職缺到這種地步然後你跟我講說我三個月給你辦法你根本不把這個當一回事啊"},{"start":469.778,"end":492.184,"text":"所以我希望說你真的認真的去看待這件事情可以嗎可以啊那可不可以盡快給我們一個解決方案盡快不要講三個月好那多久兩個月兩個月你覺得兩個月兩個月一個學期都過去了勒一個月啦我剛剛講了三個建議我剛剛講了三個建議一個月給我一個報告好不好好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時35分）好，謹遵召委指示。主席好。請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["葉委員元之：人事長早。我跟你講一個現在在學校發生的現象，某一個公立高中某一個處的組長，一般組長是由老師來兼，因為沒有老師兼，所以就找代理老師，而代理老師一招、二招是可以找有教師證的，但是都招不到，所以三招就開始找沒有教師證的，就是那種有符合大學畢業資格的就可以來當組長。然後第一位代理組長做了一個月就不做了，後來又再招第二個組長，又是做一個月就不做了，所以現在在學校缺行政職的狀況非常嚴重。這裡面出現一個我個人覺得蠻奇怪的現象，其實學校裡面很多組都有考教育行政進去的幹事，這些幹事有的可能做了十幾、二十年，他不能做組長，要由比如大學剛畢業，教學、各方面都還沒有經驗的人當他的主管、領主管加給，卻不能由幹事來代理組長，就出現這個狀況。我不曉得人事長聽到之後，會不會覺得有點奇怪？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我們再來了解一下。"],["葉委員元之：不是了解，我現在跟你講，現象就是這樣。你聽我這樣描述，你覺得不能由很有經驗的幹事來代理組長，必須由比如沒有教師證……我不是說代理老師一定不好，而是找不到人，當然，可以先老師再來代理老師，但是如果都找不到人的情況之下，幹事不能來代理組長，他明明就很有經驗，只是因為他不是老師，就沒有辦法代理組長，你不覺得很奇怪嗎？聽我這樣講，你會不會覺得很奇怪？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有一點奇怪，這部分我答應委員，我們找教育部來了解一下，看看因應這樣的情況要如何去改……"],["葉委員元之：如何解決？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，一定要解決，教育現場已經碰到了，一定要想辦法解決。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以你現在是要研議假設碰到這種狀況，老師都沒有辦法去兼的話，由幹事來代理，你要研議這個方向，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：讓教育部整體去考慮，為什麼原來沒有辦法去代理組長，一定有什麼原因存在。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這個有時候也是人事總處的建議。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我跟你講，那要尊重教育部。"],["葉委員元之：因為職系什麼的，那也是你們規定的，這個部分就麻煩你了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候會給我一個答案？1個月內，因為現在狀況很嚴重。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：3個月。"],["葉委員元之：3個月太久了，人事長平常……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還要跟教育部、跟地方去講，不是只有教育部而已。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這個職系的東西不是地方可以決定的，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，現在缺行政職，其實很多人在說要提高行政加給，這個部分其實已經講很久了。我看到考試院發了一則新聞，可能人事總處也有建議，就是我們現在為了平衡中央跟地方，所以要調整地方機關3,500個職務，可以提高1個職等，對吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：職等大概原來有7的或7到8的，會調到8到9，整個影響大概3,500人。"],["葉委員元之：對，其實我建議可以比照這種做法，因為你們的出發點很好，就是地方機關有時候找人不容易，很多人都要往中央去跑，就是因為地方職等比較低，所以你們現在要平衡這件事情。同樣地，像我也覺得在學校裡面校長、主任的職等很低，現在校長如果領行政加給的話，職等是多少？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是小學還是國中……"],["葉委員元之：小學，是不是薦任9職等？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：9職等。"],["葉委員元之：薦任9職等？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["葉委員元之：你看，一個學校校長的職等才薦任9職等，高中是簡任10職等，對吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：學校有大有小。"],["葉委員元之：那當然，一個學校的校長都才薦任9職等，人事長不覺得很不尊重教育、不重視教育嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：重視教育的本質。"],["葉委員元之：重視教育，謝謝。就像你重視地方機關一樣，你現在要調整中央跟地方的職等，讓他們比較平衡，我覺得也應該要調整學校行政職的職等，校長、主任都往上提高，提高的話，他們的行政加給就會提高，這是一個尊重；第二個，當然待遇也提高，不然的話，現在學校裡面真的很少人要兼行政，才會出現我剛剛講的狀況。人事長，你重視教育嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大家都重視教育。"],["葉委員元之：那就不要口惠而實不至，好不好？既然可以做到地方的職等提高，我覺得教育行政職等提高也是應該要做的。","第三件事情，我們現在在學校裡面有非常多處，學務處、教務處、輔導室、總務處，您知道在學校裡面只有哪幾個組長是可以由公務人員來兼嗎？您知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：3個，就是總務處下面3個組長可以兼。我現在不懂的是，人事總處跟教育部都會規定要老師來兼的原因，是因為老師有教學經驗，所以有些組長可能要有教學經驗的組長去兼，他比較了解怎麼去規劃學校相關行政事務，出發點應該是這樣，對吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，基本上。"],["葉委員元之：這個我可以接受。所以所有的組長一開始都找老師來兼，但是老師找不到、代理組長找不到、代理老師也找不到的情況之下，有一些組實際上不見得需要教學經驗的人來做。舉例來講，像教務處，你說教學組，組長當然要有教學經驗，對不對？但是如果是註冊組、輔導室其他相關的或者比如資訊組，人事長，為什麼一定要有教學經驗的人來兼呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個可能也牽涉到學校資訊教育的相關部分。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，你去盤點，你說一定要有教學經驗的人來做，那就按照原來的規劃，但是如果有的實際上不見得一定要老師來兼，而現在學校已經缺行政職缺到這麼嚴重的地步，我剛剛已經講過案例了，為什麼不能做一些調整呢？這很僵化，我們政府很僵化，不會遇到問題去調整體制，就在既有的體制一直做到底，即便是遇到問題，然後當沒看到。人事長，這是一個負責任、解決問題的政府嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我會把委員的意見轉請教育部整體來考慮。"],["葉委員元之：有關於人事任用，教育部有時候會推給人事總處，說按照人事總處的規劃……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一起處理。"],["葉委員元之：對，你推給它，它推給你，問題就永遠存在嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，我們不習慣推……"],["葉委員元之：人事長，我跟你講，剛剛召委有指示分貝不能太大，但是你的回應真的讓人家覺得很官僚，你就一直去扯教育部。如果一個勇於任事的人事長，發現教育體制的人事任用出現這個問題，就會說：「我很重視教育，我要趕快去跟教育部一起研商出一個解決教育現場問題的方法」，但是我沒有看到你的態度。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我的態度跟委員一樣。"],["葉委員元之：我第一時間跟你講說問題已經嚴重到公立高中缺行政職缺到這種地步，然後你跟我講說：「我3個月給你辦法」，你根本不把這個當一回事！所以我希望你真的認真地去看待這件事情，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["葉委員元之：那可不可以儘快給我們一個解決方案？儘快，不要講3個月。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["葉委員元之：那要多久？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：2個月。"],["葉委員元之：2個月？你覺得2個月……2個月，1個學期就過去了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會。"],["葉委員元之：1個月啦！我剛剛講的3個建議在1個月給我一個報告，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，聲音稍大，但內容很棒。","接下來請伍麗華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da519357fdd1f9f599d3b08d4a2736e01e2bc51656f8b51a994a7e9217227cf404ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:30:54 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謝主席麻煩有請經濟部部長台水的董事長我們請部長還有董事總經理台水總經理兩位好時間的關係喔直接進行高雄大樹區裡面51公頃違法的光電濫墾濫伐遭到起訴經濟部是說火速撤照希望業者不要僥倖這不是僥倖不小心的問題啦"},{"start":35.595,"end":35.817,"text":"搞了這種爛氣"},{"start":37.665,"end":63.527,"text":"在高雄大樹區51公頃山坡地違反山坡地保育條例爛啃去搞光電板這不是不要僥倖的問題這準備去坐牢了沒什麼好說的我關心的事情是說上一次我有問過經濟部說你們廢止了部分的施工許可第一期水土保持計畫經濟部跟我說合法合規使用沒有終止租約的問題現在立場還是這樣嗎"},{"start":67.512,"end":86.232,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個一期的部分目前都是沒有問題那第二個二期的部分二期的部分也要終止租約嗎跟委員報告二期的部分目前來講我們市府這邊都已經核准那個水路保持一個完工那目前來講我們每天都在監測所以這對問題回來就沒有要終止租約嗎"},{"start":88.775,"end":116.666,"text":"我們目前來講因為屬於這個目前來講廠商他光電已經停止使用但是他我們請他提對啊他光電停止使用啊但是他破壞山坡地違反法令不是事實明確嗎跟委員報告目前經過市府這個相關單位的一個評估目前來講都符合相關的法令的規定那我們會你的意思是說啦過去違反法令的不追究啦"},{"start":117.666,"end":145.604,"text":"市府要他趕上 趕上完了以後就讓他繼續租是不是這樣目前來講的話我們就請廠商提其他的應用的計畫那我們依照原來的7月大概118年才會合法的一個終止來 我們來看齁我上次問這個土地的使用有沒有違反法律結果上次經濟部的次長賴建信跟我說啊說這個是要台水去處理"},{"start":146.653,"end":170.999,"text":"我上次提醒賴建信回去跟台水講 回去的租約看清楚回去租約看清楚 租約是怎麼約定的現在橋頭遞減違反山坡地保育條例違反水土保持法 仔細看喔擅自在不可開發的地方使用河山光電案第一期工程案"},{"start":172.571,"end":195.764,"text":"鋪設太陽能光電板以此方式擅自懇職開發公有的山坡地這個是第一期第二期非法懇職違規開發的面積高達25897平方公尺現在我看不懂了檢察官在起訴的犯罪事實裡面指證歷例"},{"start":197.652,"end":220.976,"text":"這已經不是違約的問題 這是違法的問題再看一下我們台水的土地租賃契約書存租人使用土地違反法定可以隨時終止租約 我看不懂啦現在是這個業者後台很硬嗎你為什麼不按照租約終止契約把地收回來"},{"start":222.678,"end":248.791,"text":"因為目前來講到現在 他已經改善完成了既往不就 請你看一下租約好不好請你看一下租約好不好 第11條 我用紅筆框起來的陳朱仁使用土地違反法令請問這個陳朱仁使用土地有沒有違反法令跟委員報告 我講我們是會依照7月的規定來跟我7月就攤給你看啊 但我今天為什麼質詢"},{"start":250.441,"end":265.951,"text":"你們嘴巴說會按照契約的規定你實際上根本沒有按照契約的規定啊目前廠商有依照原來的那個所以你還是要照回去啊我在問你陳朱仁使用土地有沒有違反法令 有還是沒有"},{"start":267.52,"end":294.526,"text":"有還是沒有 目前來講是有違反法律 但是已經做修正了已經做修正 對嘛 所以我現在才問嘛那廠商的後台到底有多硬啊使用土地違反法律都已經被起訴了但是我們台準說啊沒有關係我不會終止租約 我們請廠商提其他合法的一個使用的計畫你再看一下這個契約書啦 我真的不知道你們為什麼"},{"start":296.906,"end":314.281,"text":"針對保護國家應該公有的資產 保護山坡地會採取這樣子的態度今天濫墾 搞光電板違反山坡地保育條例 違反水土保持法都已經被起訴了 然後我們的台水說"},{"start":317.41,"end":332.621,"text":"陳朱仁使用土地違反法令有沒有違反 有但是我不終止租約 因為他已經改善了這個是台水的態度啊 來直接請教一下部長部長 贊不贊成台水這樣的態度我直接跟你講啦"},{"start":333.646,"end":355.973,"text":"台水公司為什麼會這樣軟趴趴我不是很了解我真的不是很了解背後是有什麼隱情有什麼人當靠山搞成這個樣子高雄地區的鄉親如此的憤怒但是我們台水說沒有關係他已經改善了請問經濟部部長經濟部的立場跟台水一樣嗎"},{"start":357.335,"end":385.012,"text":"八五園那家廠商我完全不認識是我也不知道沒有關係通常來講我們跟他我也沒有說你認識啦不要緊張啦通常我們跟他契約關係解約是最後的手段是那解約之前假如有一些可以變更的話就讓他去變更然後而且現在是起訴階段還沒有定驗所以你要等到定驗就對了至少一審的時候出來"},{"start":385.832,"end":415.055,"text":"現在的標準是一樣嗎是只有對這個廠商一樣還是對所有的廠商都是這個樣子我再講一次啊看一下契約書陳朱仁使用土地違反法令他不是寫喔陳朱仁使用土地違反法令經判決確定我現在就搞不懂為什麼為什麼面對這樣違法的廠商台水軟趴趴就算了連經濟部都軟趴趴喔"},{"start":416.035,"end":432.868,"text":"不是 要判決比較確定以後才對嘛 所以我請你看契約書嘛部長你回去想一件事情啊上面契約條款的約定是陳朱仁使用土地違反法令還是陳朱仁使用土地違反法令經法院判刑確定者"},{"start":435.748,"end":450.857,"text":"這是基本的契約書解讀啦我不相信經濟部的也好 台水的法務也好會給出這麼荒謬的法律見解如果是按照這樣子搞的話如果是按照這樣子搞的話 那完蛋了事情真的大條了"},{"start":452.113,"end":479.698,"text":"主席站起來了 我只問最後一個問題我只問最後一個問題所以經濟部現在跟台水的立場一樣這件事情要等到判刑確定了以後才要處理是還是不是 給我這個答案就好了你們權力在你們手上嘛立法機關沒有辦法逼你去終止這個違背法律使用土地把山坡地搞成這個樣子的業者的租約因為權力在你們手上"},{"start":480.578,"end":503.795,"text":"我沒有權力逼你沒有權力幫你去終止租約啊你可以選擇我就是不終止那要不然要怎麼樣那就看立法機關能夠怎麼樣現在我只問態度跟立場的問題台水總經理的立場非常清楚了我已經聽到了現在我最後只請教部長經濟部的立場跟台水是不是一樣"},{"start":505.741,"end":520.673,"text":"這個可能法條上的檢視我要再檢視一下好 你再檢視需要多久這沒有很複雜啦這可能還會牽涉到萬一他判決下來沒有違法沒有關係啦你回去問你們的法務啦我再說一次啦"},{"start":521.494,"end":548.112,"text":"如果是按照這樣子 如果是按照你們這樣解釋我只跟你講一句話 事情大調了 第二個在其他的案子當中 你們都是適用這樣子的標準嗎第三個 這件事情 法律問題的解釋沒有你想像的那麼複雜我現在只問部長一件事情 你說你要回去再檢視 你檢視需要多久一個禮拜之內用書面回覆我經濟部的立場可以嗎"},{"start":549.255,"end":550.381,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜 好 我給你兩個禮拜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩請經濟部部長、台水的董事長。"],["主席：請部長，還有台水總經理。"],["龔部長明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。時間的關係，直接進行。高雄大樹區51公頃違法光電場因濫墾、濫伐遭到起訴，經濟部是說火速撤照，希望業者不要僥倖。這不是僥倖、不僥倖的問題，搞了這種爛事，在高雄大樹區51公頃的山坡地，違反山坡地保育條例濫墾，去搞光電板，這不是不要僥倖的問題，這準備去坐牢了，沒什麼好說的。我關心的事情是，上一次我有問過經濟部，你們廢止了部分施工許可的相關問題，經濟部跟我說水土保持計畫第一期合法合規使用，沒有終止租約的問題，現在立場還是這樣嗎？"],["李總經理丁來：跟委員報告，我想一期的部分目前都沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，二期的部分也要終止租約嗎？"],["李總經理丁來：跟委員報告，二期的部分，目前市府都已經核准水土保持的完工，目前我們每天都在監測……"],["黃委員國昌：請針對問題回答，所以就沒有要終止租約嘛！"],["李總經理丁來：目前屬於光電的部分廠商已經停止使用，但是我們請它提……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，它光電停止使用，但是它破壞山坡地，違反法令，不是事實明確嗎？"],["李總經理丁來：跟委員報告，經過市府相關單位的評估，目前都符合相關法令的規定，我們會依照……"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說，過去違反法令的不追究啦！市府要它改善，改善完了以後，就讓它繼續租，是不是這樣？"],["李總經理丁來：目前我們就請廠商提其他運用的計畫，我們依照原來的契約，大概118年才會合法終止。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看，我上次問這個土地的使用有沒有違反法令，結果上次經濟部的次長賴建信跟我說，這個是要台水去處理。我上次提醒賴建信回去跟台水講、回去把租約看清楚，看清楚租約是怎麼約定的。現在橋頭地檢偵結起訴說，違反山坡地保育條例、違反水土保持法，仔細看喔！擅自在不可開發的地方使用和山光電案第一期工程案場，鋪設太陽能光電板，以此方式擅自墾殖、開發公有的山坡地，這個是第一期；第二期，非法墾殖，違規開發的面積高達2萬5,897平方公尺。現在我看不懂了，檢察官在起訴的犯罪事實裡面指證歷歷，這已經不是違約的問題，這是違法的問題。再看一下台水的土地租賃契約書，承租人使用土地違反法令，可以隨時終止租約。我看不懂啦！現在是這個業者後臺很硬嗎？你為什麼不按照租約終止契約，把地收回來？"],["李總經理丁來：報告委員，因為目前來講……"],["黃委員國昌：它已經改善完成了，既往不咎？"],["李總經理丁來：不是。"],["黃委員國昌：請你看一下租約好不好？第十一點，我用紅筆框起來的部分，承租人使用土地違反法令，請問這個承租人使用土地有沒有違反法令？"],["李總經理丁來：跟委員報告，我們會依照契約的規定跟……"],["黃委員國昌：我就把契約攤給你看了。我今天為什麼質詢？你們嘴巴說會按照契約的規定，但實際上根本沒有按照契約的規定啊！"],["李總經理丁來：目前廠商有依照修正後核准的計畫執行。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還是在繞回去，我在問你，承租人使用土地有沒有違反法令，有還是沒有？"],["李總經理丁來：目前來講是有違反法令，但是已經修正了。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我現在才問，那廠商的後臺到底有多硬啊？使用土地違反法令都已經被起訴了，但是我們台水說沒有關係，我不會終止租約。"],["李總經理丁來：我們請廠商提其他合法的使用計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：你再看一下這個契約書啦！我真的不知道你們為什麼對保護國家公有的資產、保護山坡地會採取這樣子的態度，今天濫墾、搞光電板、違反山坡地保育條例、違反水土保持法，都已經被起訴了，然後我們的台水說，承租人使用土地有沒有違反法令？有，但是我不終止租約，因為它已經改善了，這個是台水的態度。","直接請教一下部長，部長贊不贊成台水這樣的態度？我直接跟你講，台水公司為什麼會這樣軟趴趴，我不是很了解，我真的不是很了解，背後是有什麼隱情、有什麼人當靠山，搞成這個樣子，高雄地區的鄉親如此的憤怒，但是我們台水說，沒有關係，它已經改善了，請問經濟部部長，經濟部的立場跟台水一樣嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，那家廠商我完全不認識，有什麼背景我也不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。"],["龔部長明鑫：另外通常來講，我們跟它……"],["黃委員國昌：我也沒有說你認識啦！不要緊張啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：通常我們跟廠商的契約關係，解約是最後的手段，解約之前假如有一些可以變更的話，就讓它去變更，而且現在是起訴階段，還沒有定讞……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你要等到定讞就對了？"],["龔部長明鑫：至少一審的結果出來……"],["黃委員國昌：經濟部現在的標準是一樣嗎？是只有對這個廠商這樣，還是對所有的廠商都是這個樣子？我再講一次，看一下契約書，承租人使用土地違反法令，它不是寫承租人使用土地違反法令經判決確定。我現在就搞不懂，為什麼面對這樣違法的廠商，台水軟趴趴就算了，連經濟部都軟趴趴？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，要判決比較確定以後才知道它有沒有違法……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我請你看契約書嘛！部長，你回去想一件事情，上面契約條款的約定是承租人使用土地違反法令，還是承租人使用土地違反法令經法院判刑確定者？這是基本的契約書解讀啦！我不相信經濟部的也好、台水的法務也好，會給出這麼荒謬的法律見解，如果是按照這樣子搞的話，那完蛋了，事情真的大條了。","主席站起來了，我只問最後一個問題，所以現在經濟部跟台水的立場一樣，這件事情要等到判刑確定了以後才要處理，是還是不是？給我這個答案就好了，權力在你們手上，立法機關沒有辦法逼你去終止這個違背法令使用土地，把山坡地搞成這個樣子的業者租約，因為權力在你們手上，我們沒有權力逼你、沒有權力幫你去終止租約，你可以選擇我就是不終止，要不然要怎麼樣？那就看立法機關能夠怎麼樣。現在我只問態度跟立場的問題，台水總經理的立場非常清楚了，我已經聽到了，現在我最後只請教部長，經濟部的立場跟台水是不是一樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這個可能法條上我要再檢視一下。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你再檢視需要多久？這沒有很複雜啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：這可能還是會牽涉到，萬一它判決下來沒有違反法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！你回去問你們的法務，我再說一次，如果是按照你們這樣解釋，我只跟你講一句話，事情大條了！第二個，在其他的案子當中，你們都是適用這樣子的標準嗎？第三個，這件事情，法律問題的解釋沒有你想像的那麼複雜，我現在只問部長一件事情，你說你要回去再檢視，你檢視需要多久？一個禮拜之內用書面回復我經濟部的立場，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜？好，我給你兩個禮拜。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51be65c5e1e62865a5c033660070f94f42c51656f8b51a994a6814c5f3722842645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:27:33 - 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就是開始要有那個民營的概念"},{"start":165.609,"end":178.943,"text":"然後就跟那個應變要快嘛所以就是說這個城市的訊息其實有時候我們主動去match不一定要人人來跟我們說你們鳳山車站要點粉紅系列的嗎我們自己就要想到了"},{"start":187.213,"end":215.914,"text":"我們這次有配合的是高雄車站對高雄車站有配合對啦我的意思就是說是不是像這個這是他們拜託我們配合我們當然會配合對跟委員報告就是說這個系列這個系列的活動是高雄市政府主動提出來那跟台鐵也有接洽是的當時他們提出來就是高雄車站所以我們高雄車站就配合我知道我的意思是說那我們可不可以主動一點說我們鳳山車站也配合"},{"start":217.651,"end":240.026,"text":"部長了解我意思嗎 了解了解就說有時候我們如果站在公務員的心態就是說我們現在公司化開始那個思考點要開始慢慢的更活化那就是說我們本來只有高雄車站他們希望變成pink的系列那我在高雄還有豐山車站站得這麼漂亮"},{"start":241.457,"end":268.749,"text":"現在大家都在質疑說都還沒營運是不是我們也會替豐山車站也宣傳一下啊我剛剛這張圖部長你看這張圖跟董事長這張圖是我們本來就有的我們其實只要說你在跟我講高雄車站的時候我跟你說我豐山車站一起它就六大地標變成七大地標那對豐山車站的宣傳會不會有幫助"},{"start":270.816,"end":298.805,"text":"我就講說這個軌道經濟其實是我們變成化被動為主動就是說在我高雄車站周遭的商圈周遭的運輸系統周遭的旅宿景點美食等等的就變成說我高雄車站用這個角度去這叫軌道經濟嘛我可以活化車站周遭的做一個套裝的行程"},{"start":299.964,"end":327.726,"text":"那這樣子你那個生意才做得起來這次高雄車站也沒有飆出去啊那就是說我們那宿客就是都沒錢拿去做一個結合那包括鳳山車站也一樣我一直跟 那次也跟董事長報告就是說我們鳳山車站離我們的鳳山捷運站那一條路啦走路也要一段時間啦但是你如果把那個"},{"start":329.349,"end":354.357,"text":"我整個從鳳山車站走曹公路 走曹公廟 走曹公郡 走中華商圈就到捷運了你是如果用一個套裝行程 還是做一個文化步道對不對這個就是都附近一起帶動包括曹公郡那邊 我們也在那邊辦假日市集嘛中華商圈這裡也有辦山村活動嘛"},{"start":355.253,"end":383.692,"text":"也就是說我們本來在台鐵的角度就是說我就是我 白人就是白人現在就說我跟白人 要怎麼臨座會 大家坐在旁邊所以我是再跟部長跟那個董事長再拜託一下就是說這個角度應該是可以去做一個改變就像那個日本我們看那個日本無人車站那個化身民宿"},{"start":386.638,"end":408.934,"text":"其實我之前也提過啦就是說鐵道秘境跟六都風華我整個六都 六都要怎麼樣去加強我六都的一個商圈的軌道經濟的結合那因為我台鐵升到很多比較鄉村的地方很多鄉村的地方有可能它多人或是車頭現在就比較落寞或是比較舊"},{"start":409.835,"end":427.525,"text":"但是其實它可以結合一些景點然後結合民宿變身變成一個景點的一個旅宿的所在類似那個社會住宅社會住宅就是政府處理公辦的租屋比較便宜嘛這樣年輕人比較有地方住嘛"},{"start":428.462,"end":440.728,"text":"啊你如果是所有這些鐵道秘境所有的台鐵道的車站如果有機會可以的正好也可以附近的景點配合的上我就可能做這樣子的規劃不是有一種活化嗎好那我不知道部長對這個觀念"},{"start":446.604,"end":472.679,"text":"能不能接受委員 這個觀點很好但是台鐵現在剛公司花一年多的時間我們當然是優先先處理安全的部分還有服務的部分另外針對行銷的跟資產活化等等這方面確實是要更加強我們未來也期望台鐵公司可以補充這方面的人才因為過去的台鐵在台鐵局的時代是不會有這個想法"},{"start":473.419,"end":501.015,"text":"那現在公司化之後確實是有一些比較餘裕的空間可以爭取這方面的人才進到公司來來協助這方面的規劃所以現在其實台鐵也有一個多角化經營的部門嗎是 我們是有一個附屬事業的部門還有另外一個資產開發的部門附屬事業跟資產開發嘛 對那附屬事業就是我講的就是要多角化嘛 對不對我們現在主要還是以便當這個"},{"start":502.376,"end":525.709,"text":"的為主著那去做這方面的當然不排除做其他的多角化首先便當我們還是肯定啦便當事實上台鐵便當是現在做得還不錯那也謝謝就是台鐵便當的觀光工廠決定住竹鳳山這個我們也感謝那我的想法就是說其實"},{"start":526.73,"end":553.302,"text":"以整個鐵道其實上就是我剛提到的六都風法結合六都的景點鐵道秘境創造我們自己鐵路的秘境好的景點事實上這個思考可以多一點這樣子不要等到安全那個是最重要啦但是不是什麼事情我等到安全全部做好要再做下一樣我現在那個平行處理我們同步很強嘛應該要同步進行在這一方面多做加強好"},{"start":554.11,"end":565.424,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝那我在強調是第一第一剛才講了明年年中啦那個時間我希望說那個部長跟董事長可以把他keep好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時27分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：還有臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請鄭董事長。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝部長。上一次有講到臺鐵的空中鳳城，在2026年年中車站1樓會先啟用。"],["陳部長世凱：對，觀光便當工廠。"],["許委員智傑：後續再分區陸續規劃，這個沒問題啦？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。我們已經跟設計師過去探勘過了，會按照這個期程，希望在明年6月以前完成1樓，能夠來營業。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。我是再confirm一次，因為我怕董事長如果時間沒有掌握好，會再拖到時間，所以特別提醒董事長，也請部長一起關心。"],["陳部長世凱：這個都在進度上，我們會來努力。"],["許委員智傑：另外，我希望2、3樓的規劃可以儘量快一點，因為就是要比照JR新幹線自己經營，開始有一些不一樣的概念，所以要有其他的地方創生活動跟鐵道文物館等等。","部長跟董事長可以看左邊這張圖，這張圖是高雄因為BLACKPINK，把本來這六大景點變成粉紅色或是粉色系列的點亮。中鋼也很主動，因為高雄做點亮粉色系列，所以他們也來點亮。我就想到鳳山車站以前曾經有這樣可以點亮的設施，但是那時候卻沒有點亮。"],["陳部長世凱：這次沒有？"],["許委員智傑：這次沒有。"],["陳部長世凱：意思是這次沒有加入？"],["許委員智傑：對，我要提醒的就是現在你們已經改民營了嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：不是，公司化，但是還沒民營，是國營。"],["許委員智傑：公司化啦！開始要有民營的概念，然後應變要快嘛！所以城市的訊息，其實有時候你們要主動去match，不一定要等人家來通知，你們鳳山車站要點粉紅系列的嗎？你們自己就要想到了。"],["陳部長世凱：我們這次有配合的是高雄車站，高雄車站有配合。"],["許委員智傑：對啦！我的意思是說是不是像這個？他們拜託你們配合，你們當然會配合嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，跟委員報告，這個系列的活動是高雄市政府主動提出來的，跟臺鐵也有接洽，當時他們提出來的就是高雄車站，所以我們高雄車站就配合。"],["許委員智傑：是的，我知道，我的意思是說你們可不可以主動一點，鳳山車站也配合，部長了解我的意思吧？"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["許委員智傑：有時候我們如果站在比較公務員的心態，現在公司化思考點要開始慢慢地更活化，本來只有高雄車站他們希望變成pink的系列，高雄還有鳳山車站蓋得這麼漂亮，現在大家還在質疑說都還沒營運，是不是我們也替鳳山車站宣傳一下？部長跟董事長看我剛剛這張圖，這是我們本來就有的，其實只要……你在跟我講高雄車站的時候，我跟你說我鳳山車站一起，六大地標就變成七大地標，對鳳山車站的宣傳會不會有幫助？我就講這個軌道經濟其實你們要化被動為主動啦！在高雄車站周遭的商圈、周遭的運輸系統、周遭的旅宿、景點、美食等等，就變成高雄車站用這個角度去，這叫軌道經濟嘛！可以活化車站周遭做一個套裝的行程，這樣子生意才做得起來，這次高雄車站也沒有標出去啊！這就是你們在思考的時候都沒有整體去做結合。","包括鳳山車站也一樣，我那一次也跟董事長報告，鳳山車站離鳳山捷運站有一小段路，走路也要一段時間，但是如果從鳳山車站走曹公路、走曹公廟、走曹公圳、走中華商圈就到捷運了，如果用一個套裝行程或做一個文化步道，就是附近都一起帶動，對不對？包括曹公圳有時候也會辦假日市集，中華商圈有時候也會辦商圈活動，也就是說你們本來在臺鐵的角度，你就是你、別人就是別人，現在就是你跟別人要怎麼連在一起，大家一起拼？所以我跟部長和董事長再拜託一下，這個角度應該是可以去做改變，就像日本，我們看日本無人車站化身民宿，其實我之前也提過鐵道秘境跟六都風華，要怎麼樣去加強六都商圈跟軌道經濟的結合，因為臺鐵延伸到很多比較鄉村的地方，很多鄉村地方的車站有可能現在比較沒落或是搭的人比較少，但是其實它可以結合一些景點、結合民宿，變身成為一個景點旅宿的好所在，類似社會住宅，社會住宅就是政府處理公辦的租屋，比較便宜嘛！這樣年輕人比較有地方住，如果這些鐵道秘境、所有臺鐵到的車站有機會，正好也可以跟附近的景點配合得上，就可能做這樣子的規劃，不也是一種活化嘛？我不知道部長對這個觀念能不能接受？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這個觀念很好啦！但是臺鐵現在剛公司化一年多的時間，我們當然是優先先處理安全還有服務的部分，另外針對行銷跟資產活化等等方面，確實是要更加強，我們未來也期望臺鐵公司可以補充這方面的人才，因為過去的臺鐵，在臺鐵局的時代是不會有這個想法，現在公司化之後，確實是有一些比較餘裕的空間，可以爭取這方面的人才進到公司來協助這方面的規劃。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在其實臺鐵也有一個多角化經營的部門嘛！"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，我們有一個附屬事業的部門，還有另外一個資產開發的部門。"],["許委員智傑：附屬事業跟資產開發嘛！附屬事業就是我講的，要多角化嘛！對不對？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們現在主要還是以便當為主軸，去做這方面的，當然不排除做其他的多角化。"],["許委員智傑：首先，便當我們還是肯定啦！事實上，臺鐵便當現在做得還不錯，也謝謝臺鐵便當的觀光工廠決定駐足鳳山，這個我們也感謝，我的想法其實是以整個鐵道來思考，事實上就是我剛剛提到的六都風華結合六都的景點，創造我們自己的鐵路秘境、好的景點，事實上這個思考可以多一點啦！安全當然是最重要，但是不是什麼事情都等到安全全部做好以後再做下一項嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們同步進行。"],["許委員智傑：現在平行處理很強嘛！應該要同步進行，在這一方面多做加強。"],["鄭董事長光遠：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。我再強調，第一，剛才講的明年年中啦！那個時間我希望部長跟董事長可以把它keep好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝召委 我們有請陳部長來 陳部長請好 部長午安委員好 部長今天是我們這個全台軌道建設相關進度的一個專報是 那我想宜蘭的所有鄉親這個引頸期盼的兩項重大的軌道建設一個是這個鐵路高架 還有另外是高鐵延伸那我想就這兩個議題來請教部長"},{"start":33.504,"end":48.184,"text":"那因為這個宜蘭鐵路高架的部分我們目前就是這個綜合規劃 遲遲沒辦法核定那我們比較擔心的是不是會去影響到這個後續的相關期程的一個進展"},{"start":48.925,"end":68.283,"text":"那我想在這個8月28號的時候也曾經這個詢問過部長就是針對這個問題那部長當時也有這個回覆我就是會加速來審議那也會爭取在年底前看能不能得到行政院的一個核定那我想這部分"},{"start":70.267,"end":88.066,"text":"部長我們在這個下個月有沒有辦法順利來這個提報行政院那也可以在明年順利的來動工這個有沒有機會好 跟委員報告我是不是請鐵道局長先回答好不好好 謝謝委員那個宜蘭鐵路高架我們在部裡面10月9號已經召開過委員會審查"},{"start":90.569,"end":108.258,"text":"原則上是通過了那我們現在正在按照委員會的審查意見進行報告的修正我們會努力在最短的時間裡面把他呈報到交通部裡面來那部裡面在後續報行政院來做審議是好所以我們盡量趕下個月可以報到行政院"},{"start":108.838,"end":132.331,"text":"下個月對好那這部分還是請這個部長跟局長再幫幫忙這個進度我們會抓好那另外這個高鐵延伸的部分高鐵延伸也一樣在現階段應該是在綜合規劃那我想請教的是這個綜合規劃審議還有縣府所提報的相關這個高鐵特區的這個規劃是不是已經順利在這個推進當中"},{"start":135.249,"end":151.589,"text":"也跟委員報告就是高鐵延伸宜蘭除了環評二節已經在8月份得到環境部的通過之外那綜合規劃報告部裡面其實在7月份就已經召開過審查會議我們最近已經在報這個中規報告到部裡面希望能夠轉成行政院"},{"start":153.15,"end":170.396,"text":"所以這也都在騎乘當中就拜託部長跟局長另外就是我們鐵道的相關觀光的一個推動這個部分我想請教就是我們現在宜蘭縣內還有22個台鐵的車站"},{"start":174.218,"end":195.455,"text":"那這個車站我們在未來鐵路高架之後扣除這個高架之後的這個車站往外推的話應該還有16座那這16座的這個車站相關的這個硬體設備有沒有安排期程來做這個整新這個台鐵公司有做這方面的規劃嗎是"},{"start":204.091,"end":227.101,"text":"那我們在這個站體的這個免學改造方面是有一個順序的那我們現在目前已經完成了改善的站體的會有羅東還有這個二節還有我們五漁村五個車站的站體的粉刷都已經完成那另外大理站的這個無障礙跟動線也都完成"},{"start":229.943,"end":253.171,"text":"現在目前在積極改善中的有四層站的站體的粉刷項目還有大理大溪外澳及頂埔月台的這個雨雨棚的這個雨遮雨遮的部分也都在這個改善中大概是是這樣好那我還是提醒董事長因為早期所建置的這些車站"},{"start":254.671,"end":260.489,"text":"以現在的觀點來看 有一點不服實用有一些車站裡面沒有廁所"},{"start":262.269,"end":283.822,"text":"有一些車站當然剛剛董事長您也說了我們的一些動線可能在已經在改善當中包括建置那個升降梯或是無障礙空間等等那這個都是希望說我們鐵道局這邊我們台鐵公司可以陸陸續續來做這個相關的改善以便捷民眾的這個"},{"start":285.603,"end":302.954,"text":"方向跟目標來做調整那因為現在看起來這些場站裡面有一些我們這個包括雨遮還有一些後車的空間等等都跟現在比較新型態的這個車站都"},{"start":305.095,"end":329.854,"text":"完全不一樣啦所以我還是希望說我們是不是可以循序漸進針對這些場戰來做這個相關空間的改善是的 我們會按照剛才這個委員所提的幾個大方向讓我們來研究改善好 董事長這再拜託你那另外最後一個問題我想請教因為在宜蘭這邊我們有這個海豐號可是海豐號在11月9號之後"},{"start":331.596,"end":346.799,"text":"因為氣候的因素他就要往新竹跟台中方向去移動那這一段期間變成宜蘭這邊的觀光列車就沒有了那我們台鐵公司這邊有沒有規劃其他的觀光列車的"},{"start":347.139,"end":365.508,"text":"跟委員報告我們是想說把這個明日號明初號那目前並沒有在這個宜蘭這邊境內我們想打算來跟研究加靠大理或者也礁溪這兩個非常重要的景點好 這我們期待啦就拜託董事長好 謝謝局長 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叫一流"},{"start":171.926,"end":188.218,"text":"多少的法規國法會所有的原則所有的所有的例子拿出來一個一個的去判判讀出來我可以補助多少結果四五年跟你們磨了半天結果你四五個月不要說四五天你就決定沒有了"},{"start":189.52,"end":214.688,"text":"我就講第一個我覺得這種過五官斬六將五六年的一個專業抵不過你行政院長跟交通部你們幾個人講一下叭喳到底砍幾叭 隨便就把它砍掉這到底是以前的那叫做折磨人四五年根本不叫專業其實根本不值得一提我只要我的會員一看就可以減到多少我覺得有一點"},{"start":215.928,"end":236.999,"text":"羞辱到過去這麼努力的不管是鐵道局交通部國發跟行政院整個團隊嚴格審查的一個結果那現在一個我要請教的意思就是說沒有關係我要問你政策第一個是不做不完了結果是什麼明年不編預算它只是一個訊號是緩編預算還是有是緩編"},{"start":240.661,"end":265.228,"text":"還是就不編了不編了我覺得這個都還是要跟人家去講清楚為什麼呢有一些人在施工階段了他頭已經洗下去了那他要想辦法對不對那第二個呢你們剛通過的台南啊人家正在開心啊開心嘛但是你們正在同一時間他準備稀釋發包最快明年開始動工這新聞媒體寫的那像這種"},{"start":266.508,"end":294.764,"text":"你們剛核定正準備細色發包的幾個案子你要跟他講清楚我這樣希望你能夠講清楚說抱歉雖然你還沒有發包我們核定的10月21號的也是只是跟你玩一玩說193億其實是騙你的那你要跟人家講清楚因為地方政府他有他的採組單位主計如果他沒有明確的來源的時候他連辦發包都有問題第三個是有18個案子就像部長說的"},{"start":296.085,"end":319.539,"text":"三個還在中規階段15個在可行於研究一次講清楚嘛這都還沒開始的說真的中央地方裁員的問題你是解決不了已經發包跟一些廠商契約的問題啊你說沒有了不完你沒有辦法取約啊我跟你講那是沒有辦法去所以我們希望你能夠"},{"start":321.334,"end":344.912,"text":"最快的速度把這個事情釐清嘛這個東西讓大家到底未來不補還是還補那工程要怎麼收尾我們工程會在我們交通委員會嘛要怎麼收尾啊有些真的做不下去了嘛你也不要說賭反正他一定可以做下去那不一定那我現在問部長你可以回答的這個鐵道局跟台鐵公司你可以回答的嘛"},{"start":345.572,"end":370.981,"text":"好了 財化法地方預算 中央預算兩者之爭結果台鐵公司在明年台鐵公司他要212億就你們一樣大概減了七十幾億減了大概七十億大約大概六七十億變成只給他145億其中包括了什麼呢"},{"start":372.479,"end":383.048,"text":"軌道結構安全提升啦我跟你講你們撿這個如果工程沒做現在誰撿誰要負責行政院長學生要負責軌道結構安全你可以給他撿掉12億"},{"start":385.062,"end":407.594,"text":"營業所需車輛維修台鐵公司他提的計畫你把他也減掉12億大概十幾億那這個的部分你要你們砍掉的是什麼這個沒有扯到地方政府喔鐵道局台鐵公司都是你們中央單位了但你當你砍這個的時候你怎麼砍得下去一個是結構軌道結構安全第二個是車輛維修總共砍了25億"},{"start":410.175,"end":429.885,"text":"鐵道局你砍了300億包括花東很多項目啦花東鐵路地下化砍了46億桃園鐵路地下化還有沒有240億嘛你大概也砍了120億那就問鐵道局你到底做不做啦現在不是問地方政府你們是主責單位你們是發報單位那個楊局長你來說一下這對你來說是不編了還是緩編"},{"start":436.915,"end":451.997,"text":"還是不做就我不要問地方都問你因為這個工程是你你說的你說一下這個我們還是會按照原來的企業進度繼續進所以錢都會到嗎這個錢的話就是可以按照分年可能我們在做所以都可以所以到這個錢還是會來嗎目前我們"},{"start":453.72,"end":470.701,"text":"我跟你講 台灣鐵路地下化你們一方面在國發會在審議要增加700多億啦另外一方面你現有的1000億裡面 你說匡列的預算你都不到位 但是你很有信心也謝謝楊局長 那我想這個信心應該會傳遞到地方"},{"start":472.683,"end":492.313,"text":"主責施工的這個部分到底可不可以繼續來做一個施工我覺得這個部分我們希望行政院長或交通部你要趕快釐清嘛不然有些要發包你錢又不給他根本沒有辦法去發包了那另外一個角度如果你這個事情政策不明朗不清楚的時候"},{"start":493.473,"end":519.489,"text":"不用理由 我省了五年 不用理由就可以弄掉幾十億喔喔 這樣可以啊你要知道當你組織單位的時候地方政府在台鐵地下化當然我們地方想要可是如果這錢弄不清你不給我也不給你嘛現在250億 如果未來變成1800億討厭市政府25%他要付450億那大家花PAR GAME我覺得這個部分有些在中央組織有些是地方組織"},{"start":520.45,"end":543.581,"text":"你這個東西 你不給我錢 我不給你錢我不希望這種事情發生最後請那個台鐵公司鄭董剛剛已經有委員問過了為什麼黃處長 代理處長剛剛有到問完之後就跑掉了是突然有財務危機要回去處理的剛剛有沒有到"},{"start":545.117,"end":572.724,"text":"他剛剛有沒有到場 剛剛有我們會還沒結束 是我們召委主席你他幹嘛跑 跑什麼 有會不好意思嗎因為我看你們講的都是拍胸脯啊 沒有問題啊他幹嘛跑 還是什麼財務危機要回去處理財務他是代理的 他是監的處長但是他主要的工作是在做媒體溝通這部分"},{"start":573.044,"end":599.82,"text":"我跟你講 鄭董事長 這個事情喔 我是本來是有點生氣 但是我現在更多的同情您年紀這麼大 還要在這裡為前朝所做的事情遮遮掩掩你從高鐵公司來 要借重你的專業來處理這個事情結果近來不到兩個月 也被洗成這種可以睜眼說瞎話的 我覺得很奇怪喔"},{"start":601.34,"end":627.957,"text":"欸 你們當時去招生啊你們總是要一個 要的人才們講對嘛他做新聞沒問題嘛你們當時就要求十年以上的媒體經驗 十年警委來的時候 我們當時就接到檢舉嘛我想說用人是你們的權利 我們也沒有我們覺得他好 那我們也認為你認為他在做委員秘書 或者說交通部什麼他也處理新聞 算我們當時一句話都沒有問過"},{"start":628.898,"end":631.765,"text":"甚至三個人到台鐵公司 當時不是你"},{"start":632.901,"end":661.916,"text":"面試的時候有兩個都是20年媒體經驗而且是大媒體經驗不用就是我們黃先生進來了所以他是處理媒體的這個部分用了10年如果當時你要求一個人才是10年的財快經驗我告訴你大家閉嘴了沒什麼好講的吧所以你們為什麼還要扯什麼東西呢這個人進來就跟財務一點都沒關係他的學歷也是公共政策我們尊重他的專業嘛"},{"start":662.856,"end":675.102,"text":"他的公共政策政府的部分你為什麼要為他遮遮掩我就請問一下鄭董再說一下你高鐵過來高鐵的財快副總你用的是誰請說明一下也是這樣子隨便搞的嗎"},{"start":676.289,"end":702.862,"text":"現在叫什麼 請問一下王維仁副總專門負責他的學經理 你說一下好不好你才剛從這個公司來 你要怎麼知道台鐵 高鐵104年 105年都快要倒掉了你們是怎麼救起來 我還在感謝你們怎麼救起來 在救的階段整個包括土地資產整個處理 你要找專業的甚至有兩位董事長 當時劉董范董都還是本身是財怪背景"},{"start":703.622,"end":728.375,"text":"結果你們現在你們高鐵要你們的經驗 什麼經驗王財快的副總專門的他是台大研畢業畢業的他也是一個集團的財務長才轉過來的你怎麼到這邊我們要你帶經驗過來你居然怎麼會這樣 我這樣同情啊這個人是誰任用的"},{"start":731.577,"end":751.114,"text":"這個誰認用剛剛喔其實好啦我知道時間到了第一個代理財務處處長整體的薪水當然有增加因為主管家籍增加多少主管家籍增加多少人是一萬一主管家籍增加多少"},{"start":753.955,"end":776.931,"text":"講嘛 好嘛 那他整體領到錢 薪水有沒有增加嘛對不對 你們這樣跟部長講說專門員什麼一毛沒有增加 主管家籍啊 都已經領啦當然有增加那再來最後一個是你們在這樣的一個用人的一個政策上面我覺得出了大問題鄭董這個人是不是你提拔到財務處處長"},{"start":779.053,"end":805.378,"text":"因為我來以前他已經是在那個位置上面了所以很好嘛所以我最後一個結論也是跟部長說啦這個人是誰提拔上來的你一直看台鐵公司你不用看是伍聖元你派他代理那一兩個月他幹出來的就是你的交通部次長他幹出來他那個階段杜威退了就那一個幾個月的關卡他用了這個人到財務處"},{"start":806.818,"end":823.449,"text":"我覺得好離譜耶不要忘記台鐵公司化當時三大處理原則第一個就是要處理你們的財務虧損跟危機這個東西我覺得不要開玩笑而且最離譜的是你明明知道這是一個新成立的單位"},{"start":824.6,"end":851.356,"text":"對不對到目前為止你們已經公司化一年10個月沒有財務處長上網一次一次都沒有這個企圖我告訴你這是很惡劣的鄭董不是在你剛到一次都沒上網什麼叫做外面沒有人才我上網了內外徵徵不到人找代理我覺得這個邏輯是比較對的我希望趕快廣徵人才就像部長你說的好不好"},{"start":851.716,"end":853.638,"text":"委員你這樣說是很正確的我是覺得應該趕快專業的人才進來好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時6分）主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：請教一下，這陣子包括地方政府大家都在關心軌道工程，主要是地方政府捷運明年度的預算跟原本的概算相比少了非常多，我們看到有幾個地方政府就說補助差那麼多，有可能蓋不下去，可是我有聽到行政院院長跟部長說，是因為財劃法等等原因，反正一句話就是沒錢。可是同一時間10月21號就看到舊人在哭、新人在笑，哇！臺南首條捷運，中央決定補助193億，然後市政府自籌多少，一方面是覺得沒有了，一方面又開啟一個新的計畫。對於這些正反面的訊息，我真的想問一下，部長，你們對於現在的軌道工程已經核定的經費、整個政策到底是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，目前正在審核的案子其實還蠻多的，我們的進度還是持續走，但是長期來說，就是財劃法修法之後，我們能夠協助地方的力量應該是會減少，減少之後就會有新的辦法，但是目前新的辦法還沒出來，所以我們原本在審議的過程，包含桃園的也是一樣，我們讓進度持續走，不要拖延到地方的進度，這個相當的關鍵。所以我們進度持續走，但是我們到底還有多少的預算可以協助地方，我們要看每一年的財政狀況。"],["魯委員明哲：我想這一次基本上已經核定的地方軌道工程，就是六都加基隆市，基隆市大家也吵了很久，就準備要開始了，各個地方整個看起來提出來的概算明年度是399億，然後你實際編列的預算總共只有90億，減少了77%，像這樣一個減幅，其實引發出幾個問題：第一、現在很多還在進行可行性研究、綜規環評，大家都知道每一次的軌道工程因為金額比較大、技術方面，地方還有很多意見，都被折磨了四、五年才通過，哇！這叫一流。多少的法規、國發會的原則、所有的例子拿出來一個一個去判讀，看中央可以補助多少，跟你們磨了四、五年，結果你四、五個月，不要說四、五天，你就決定沒有了！我就講，第一、這種過五關斬六將，五、六年的專業抵不過行政院院長跟交通部你們幾個人講一下，啪嚓！到底砍幾趴、隨便就把它砍掉，這到底是以前的呢……那叫做折磨人，4、5年那根本不叫專業，其實根本不值得一提，只要我的慧眼一看就可以減到多少！我覺得有一點羞辱到過去這麼努力的鐵道局、交通部、國發跟行政院整個團隊嚴格審查的結果。","現在我要請教的就是，沒有關係，我要問你政策，第一個是不做、不玩了，結果是什麼？明年不編預算，它只是一個訊號，是緩編預算，還是有？是緩編還是就不編了？不編了，我覺得這個都還是要跟人家講清楚，為什麼呢？有一些已經在施工階段了，他頭都已經洗下去了，那他要想辦法，對不對？","第二個，你們剛通過的，臺南啊！人家正在開心、開心嘛！但是你們在同一時間，他準備細設、發包，最快明年開始動工，這是新聞媒體寫的，那像這種你們剛核定，正準備細設、發包的幾個案子，你要跟他講清楚，我希望你能夠講清楚說，抱歉，雖然你還沒有發包，但我們核定的、10月21號的也只是跟你玩一玩，說193億其實是騙你的。那你要跟人家講清楚，因為地方政府有它的財主單位，主計如果沒有明確來源的時候，它連辦發包都有問題。","第三個是，有18個案子，就像部長說的，3個還在綜規階段、15個是在可行性研究，所以一次講清楚嘛！這都還沒開始。說真的，中央、地方財源的問題，你是解決不了已經發包跟一些廠商契約的問題啊！你如果沒有了、不玩，你沒有辦法履約！我跟你講，那是沒有辦法去……所以我們希望你能夠以最快的速度把這個事情釐清，到底未來不補還是緩補？工程要怎麼收尾？工程會也在我們交通委員會，怎麼收尾啊？有些真的做不下去了。你也不要說賭啊！反正他一定可以做得下去，那不一定。","那我現在問部長你可以回答的，鐵道局跟臺鐵公司，你可以回答的，就財劃法，地方預算、中央預算兩者之爭，臺鐵公司在明年要212億，結果你們一樣，大概減了七十幾億嘛！減了大概六、七十億，變成只給它145億。其中包括了什麼？軌道結構安全提升。我跟你講，你們減這個，如果工程沒做，現在誰減誰要負責，行政院院長、行政院要負責，軌道結構安全你可以給它減掉12億！營業所需車輛維修，臺鐵公司提的計畫，你也把它減掉12億、大概十幾億。這部分你們砍掉的是什麼？這個沒有扯到地方政府喔！鐵道局、臺鐵公司都是你們中央單位的，但當你砍這個的時候，你怎麼砍得下去！一個是軌道結構安全，第二個是車輛維修，總共砍了25億。","就鐵道局，你砍了300億，包括很多項目，花東鐵路部分砍了46億；桃園鐵路地下化大概240億，你大概也砍了120億。那就問鐵道局你到底做不做啦！現在不是問地方政府，你們是主責單位、你們是發包單位。楊局長，你來說一下，這對你來說，是不編了還是緩編，還是不做了？我們不要問地方，就問你，因為這個工程是你做的，你說一下。"],["楊局長正君：這個我們還是會按照原來的契約進度繼續進行。"],["魯委員明哲：所以錢都會到嘛？"],["楊局長正君：這個錢的話可以按照分年，可能我們再做……"],["魯委員明哲：所以都可以？到時候錢還是會來嗎？"],["楊局長正君：目前我們的基本工作不能夠讓……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，桃園鐵路地下化，你們一方面在國發會審議要增加七百多億，另外一方面，你現有的1,000億裡面，你說匡列的預算都不到位，但是你很有信心。也謝謝楊局長，那我想這個信心應該會傳遞到地方主責施工的單位，這個部分，到底可不可以繼續施工啊？這個部分我們希望行政院長、交通部要趕快釐清，不要有的這樣要發包，但你錢又不給，它根本沒有辦法去發包。","另外一個角度，如果你這個事情的政策不明朗、不清楚的時候，不用理由，我審了5年，不用理由就可以弄掉幾十億？喔！這樣可以啊！你要知道，當你是主責單位的時候，地方政府就臺鐵地下化，當然我們地方想要，可是如果這個錢弄不清，你不給，我也不給你嘛！現在250億，如果未來變成1,800億，桃園市政府25%，它要付450億，那大家「喊芭樂拳」！我覺得這個部分有些在中央主責，有些是地方主責，這個東西你不給我錢、我不給你錢，我不希望這種事情發生。","最後，我請臺鐵公司鄭董，剛剛已經有委員問過了，為什麼黃代理處長剛剛有到，問完之後就跑掉啦？是突然有財務危機要回去處理，是嗎？他剛剛有沒有到場？"],["鄭董事長光遠：剛才有。"],["魯委員明哲：剛剛有嘛！那怎麼我們會還沒結束……主席，你……他幹嘛跑？跑什麼？"],["鄭董事長光遠：他……"],["魯委員明哲：也會不好意思嗎？因為我看你們講的都是拍胸脯、沒有問題啊！他幹嘛跑？還是有什麼財務危機要回去處理？"],["鄭董事長光遠：不是，那個財務他是代理的，他是兼處長，他主要的工作是在做媒體溝通這部分，協助我，他也是在這一方面……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，鄭董事長，這個事情我本來是有點生氣，但我現在是更多的同情，您年紀這麼大，還要在這裡為前朝所做的事情遮遮掩掩。你從高鐵公司來，要借重你的專業來處理這個事情，結果進來不到兩個月也被洗成這種可以睜眼說瞎話的，我覺得很奇怪喔！你們當時去招人，你們總是要用一個人才，你們講的，對嘛！他做新聞沒問題。你們當時就要求十年以上的媒體經驗，十年！結果來的時候，我們當時就接到檢舉，我想說用人是你們的權力，你認為他在做委員秘書或做交通部什麼的，他也處理新聞……我們當時一句話都沒有過問。甚至3個人到臺鐵公司，當時不是你，面試的時候，有2個都是二十年媒體經驗，而且是大媒體的經驗，不用！就是黃先生進來，他是處理媒體的這個部分用了十年，如果當時你要求一個人才是十年的財會經驗，我告訴你，大家就閉嘴了，沒什麼好講的！所以你們為什麼還要扯什麼東西呢？這個人進來就跟財務一點都沒關係，他的學歷也是公共政策，我們尊重他的專業，公共政策、政府的部分，但你為什麼要為他遮遮掩掩？","我就請問一下鄭董，你再說一下，你從高鐵過來，高鐵的財會副總你用的是誰？請說明一下，也是這樣子隨便搞的嗎？現在叫什麼？請問一下，王惟仁副總專門負責，他的學經歷，你說一下好不好？你才剛從這個公司來。你知道高鐵104年、105年都快要倒掉了，你們是怎麼救起來的，我還得感謝你們哪！怎麼救起來？到救的階段，包括土地資產整個處理，你們要找專業的，甚至有2位董事長，當時劉董、范董本身都還是財會背景。結果現在臺鐵要你們的經驗，什麼經驗？財會的王副總是專門的，他是臺大EMBA畢業的，他也是一個集團的財務長才轉過來的。你怎麼到了這邊，我們要你帶經驗過來，你怎麼會這樣？我是同情啊！而這個人是誰任用的、這個誰任用的？","我知道時間到了，第一個，代理財務處處長的整體薪水當然有增加，因為主管加給增加多少？主管加給增加多少，人事？1萬1,000元，主管加給增加多少，講嘛！"],["鄭董事長光遠：增加1萬1,000元。"],["魯委員明哲：好嘛！那他整體領到的薪水有沒有增加，對不對？你們這樣跟部長講，說專門委員什麼的一毛沒有增加，有主管加給啊！都已經領了，當然有增加。","最後一個是，你們在這樣的一個用人政策上面，我覺得出了大問題。鄭董，這個人是不是你提拔到財務處處長的？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我來以前就有，他已經在那個位置上面了。"],["魯委員明哲：所以很好嘛！我最後一個結論也是跟部長說，這個人是誰提拔上來的？你一直看臺鐵公司，你不用看，是伍勝園、你派他代理，那一、兩月他幹出來的，就是你的交通部次長幹出來的，他在那個階段、就那幾個月的關卡，用了這個人到財務處，我覺得好離譜！你不要忘記臺鐵公司化當時三大處理原則，第一個就是要處理你們的財務虧損跟危機，我覺得這個東西不要開玩笑，而且最離譜的是，你明明知道這是一個新成立的單位，對不對？到目前為止，你們已經公司化1年10個月，財務處處長沒有上網一次，這個企圖一次都沒有！我告訴你，這真的是很惡劣。你剛到，一次都沒上網，什麼叫做外面沒有人才？應該上網徵，內外都徵不到才找人代理，我覺得這個邏輯是比較對的。我希望趕快廣徵人才，就像部長說的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：委員這樣說是很正確的，我覺得應該要趕快徵專業的人才進來，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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沒有進度那"},{"start":253.203,"end":272.422,"text":"那台中市政府要去做決定啦好因為這個決定權都還是在地方政府他們要自己做決定因為還是回到那天我們考察的時候我跟委員報告的那個觀念那個捷運系統的建制是地方自己辦的事項那中央只是一個協助的角色好沒問題這個部長接下來下一題這個"},{"start":274.076,"end":294.902,"text":"我想我只能關注我們部長上任之後的這些一言一行你去年9月2號上任的時候不久你就來到台中視察台鐵的這個站台說要來幫我們裝這個設置相關的這些安全的這些閘門等等的那目前為止在目前以高雄車站的事辦算是要開始來做了明年3月對 那台中"},{"start":295.982,"end":323.631,"text":"因為你去年說要讓台中來做那目前好像只聞部長說但是相關計畫跟委員報告因為我們高雄是第一個事辦的站我們要確定這樣子的系統是可運行的而且是安全而且適合台鐵如果確定之後我們就會開始去推展到各個車站尤其是人數比較多的那台中車站我自己也在那邊搭車好幾次在上去的時候確實發現假日的時候人潮蠻擁擠"},{"start":324.451,"end":348.401,"text":"然後粵台其實是相對擁擠的所以台中站應該到時候也會列為我們優先要設置這個所謂的粵台閘門的這個站體之一那個評定標準就是說因為現在是等高雄現在你所謂示範先看對我要先示範一段時間確定系統是穩定可行的那我想問問部長到時候現階段因為現在選高雄市所謂的示範那其他城市"},{"start":349.662,"end":362.495,"text":"平定標準你是要等到高雄的事辦的結果現在現階段我們可以來看說哪些站點哪些大站或小站來決定要不要裝設這樣的東西台鐵開始評估了嗎是不是請台鐵董事長好沒問題"},{"start":363.291,"end":387.646,"text":"我想我們會選這個高雄就是說這個月台門的設計因為台鐵的車種太多了所以它的這個做法就不像高鐵一樣就是說你可以疑似要鎖所有的車站都一樣那所以我們在這個情況之下我們就是先看哪一種方式看高雄現在這個方式是不是適合我們台鐵的部分"},{"start":388.146,"end":412.035,"text":"那至於說人潮的需要那當然我們現在開始已經開始評估說哪些是需要做月台門的我具體建議跟部長跟董事長來報告包含說過去當然曾經發生過意外的我們的五泉站跟太原站這是發生過事件的那如果從人潮來看松竹站松竹站他的人潮從去年到今年提升了20%"},{"start":413.556,"end":436.872,"text":"所以它其實人潮是增加因為它整個重劃區的關係所以人都變多所以像這種人潮明顯增加那因為它本來不是什麼A級站不是一級站它自己屬於小型的地方站本來是這樣一開始像什麼松竹那麼太原這些五泉你應該很清楚都只是區間車理論上停的小站但是因為它現在隨著人口成長它變成像是大家把當年捷運在做我想這也是交通部樂見的事情"},{"start":437.512,"end":447.968,"text":"當然捷運在做之後讓人潮提升非常多所以未來是不是可以把它像這些本來的小站也能夠因為人潮提升之後來把它裝設所謂的樂台有沒有機會這樣往這方向來思考"},{"start":448.715,"end":467.087,"text":"跟委員報告這個人潮的隨著人口的成長那旅客的這個成長的因素的話我們會列為考慮之一好董事長謝謝那接下來在今天主題當然要討論一下安全問題這個我們回顧一下其實每次遇到重大事故就還要見景率所以從108年114年113年每一次"},{"start":469.929,"end":486.737,"text":"我想歷史許多新聞只要看到了台鐵或者是我們的這種公共運輸出問題的時候就會喊建請率建請率建請率但是實際上我們看這個預算當然這不歸你們不全然是你們的問題這個警察的部分缺額比例"},{"start":488.13,"end":513.828,"text":"預算原額是910人 但現有原額是726人當然這是隔壁內政委員會的問題 但是這實際上每次說要喊建警率提升 但實際上真正的警察有提升嗎 沒有所以在安全的措施上面 我覺得這個部分台鐵或是交通部有沒有什麼做法 除了建警率提升之外到底要怎麼做 或是你們要怎麼去跟內政部協調是警察要增加呢 還是有其他的措施可以改變這個部分 改定這個部分"},{"start":514.697,"end":527.564,"text":"當然長期來說跟內政部來爭取這個鐵路警察的員額的增加或者是實際派遣人力的增加這個我們當然會持續來拜託跟要求那另外針對關鍵基礎設施我們也會專案來跟內政部來請求這個專案的警力"},{"start":532.327,"end":557.74,"text":"那第三就是說或許保全的人力能夠更快速的來補充也是一種方案那我也請台鐵公司開始再做研議我們針對保全人力的部分有沒有可能來增加部長您再看一下就是說我提供一個資料就是你們我們去要資料從1月1今天5月22號因為台鐵這個玉里花蓮區間車發生這個旅客攻擊列車事件所以當你們提出一些這個加強護車的勤務"},{"start":559.961,"end":586.622,"text":"那確實從4月到5月4月開始到5月5月到6月6月到7月7月到8月8月到9月底都有相關紀錄就是這個專案進行了大概半年左右但是928之後這個專案好像就停止了那我要講什麼就是說發生重大社會事件台鐵很積極我會馬上請大家來協情提升見景率可是這個專案結束了之後又回到正常"},{"start":587.608,"end":606.715,"text":"好像是會讓一些有心人士或者說只能假設這個不定時炸彈有機可乘所以我們希望說如果在事件發生的當下見景率能夠提升你護車班次能夠提高那平常是到底是人地不足的問題還是什麼問題我覺得這部分是整個交通部跟內政部要一起去檢討可以嗎好我們一起來檢討董事長要回應嗎"},{"start":611.604,"end":627.834,"text":"我想這個提高鑑定力的我們最近跟這個鐵警局這邊有一個非常好的一個這個共識就是說他們要用跨區跨域好來這個執行他情味就是說如果他到了台中以後他可以往前"},{"start":628.695,"end":649.197,"text":"往下一個他的這個非轄區的部分去做那這樣的話所以我們現在跨車的這個每週是有439人已經增加到687人那每週的這個車次也由453次增加到700人700個車次所以有大幅的增加好 董事長謝謝 部長謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時55分）謝謝主席，我一樣請交通部陳世凱部長。"],["主席：陳部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，兩週前，交通委員會到臺中考察臺中的捷運綠線延伸段，本席的立場當然是希望延伸到大坑這一段可以優先做，當時部長在會議中也提到由於延伸段分為南段跟北段，南邊涉及彰化的都市計畫，所以臺中在送件時可以直接分成南段跟北段。但是我回來之後查了一下，發覺過去臺中的山海環線一開始送出去時是完整的計畫，後來依交通部的意見，由交通部拆成3個計畫，分成山線、海線、甲后線，臺中當初規劃的屯區捷運延伸線、環狀線也依交通部意見拆成紫線跟藍線延伸段。","高雄的岡山、路竹線計畫一開始整個送進去，後來也是由國發會核定拆成兩階段進行，所以我今天要就教部長的是這些計畫在一開始地方送上去時都是完整的，這次我們按照原先的捷運延伸線計畫完整地送進去審，當然也希望完整地整段通過，但是就如同我所說，光是過去這些屬於同一個地方政府、同一個城市的捷運建設、鐵路建設，都可能因為計畫期程、經費的關係被拆分。那麼臺中捷運綠線延伸線橫跨兩個城市：彰化縣跟臺中市，彰化縣內部又涉及彰化市的問題，所以等於同時間有3個地方政府會面對這個問題。而且據我所知，今年初的二月，內政部又把彰東擴大都市計畫退回一次，所以這件事等於沒有進度。對我來講，或者對交通部來講，尷尬點在於臺中市政府送出去，當然希望一次做完，可是都市計畫等需要送內政部審、送到中央來會、來審，如果最後在中央這邊被退回，地方就來不及處理嘛！所以我要問的是細部到底是由我們拆，還是一次送上去之後，到時候由交通部或大家一起決定到底怎麼處理？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，在都市計畫部分，交通部大概也幫不上忙，進度可能要自己去抓，彰東部分要由彰化縣政府自己去抓。另外，關於拆分，委員剛剛提到一個很關鍵的議題，就是各地方都是將整體計畫送上來，由國發會建議他們要或不要拆開，大概是這樣，或者是由我們交通部建議他們要或不要拆開。所以，對地方政府來說還是要整個送上來，而我們可以出建議，例如建議拆，但是實際上要不要拆，動作都還是地方政府要做。"],["黃委員健豪：那我們明確一點，因為那天會勘的時候沒有講得很明確，所以講明確一點，留個紀錄：地方政府明年初要送綜合規劃時，一樣要把整個綠線延伸計畫送上來，再看都市計畫有沒有趕上嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：如果趕上，就大家─臺中、彰化、交通部一起合作……"],["陳部長世凱：趕上的話當然就沒有問題。"],["黃委員健豪：如果沒趕上就……"],["陳部長世凱：沒趕上，我們就建議他們拆啦！"],["黃委員健豪：OK，那這樣沒問題。"],["陳部長世凱：但是拆或不拆的決定權還是在於地方政府自己。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，反正到時候你們會建議嘛！建議拆或不拆是交通部的權限還是臺中市的權限？"],["陳部長世凱：我們可提也可不提啦！但是如果臺中市政府想要拆，再請我們建議拆，這是可以的。"],["黃委員健豪：這是客觀事實啦！我們沒有想拆啦！但是如果都市計畫……"],["陳部長世凱：如果沒有想拆，那我們就不會建議拆啊！"],["黃委員健豪：但如果都市計畫最後還是沒有進度，那整體計畫……"],["陳部長世凱：那臺中市政府要自己做決定啦！因為決定權還是在地方政府，他們要自己做決定。還是回到那天考察時我跟委員報告的那個觀念，捷運系統的建置是地方自己辦的事項，中央只是一個協助的角色。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒問題。","接下來我一直關注部長上任之後的一言一行，你去年9月2號上任後不久，就來到臺中視察臺鐵的站台，說要來幫我們設置安全閘門等等。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：當然目前高雄車站經過試辦，算是要開始來做了。"],["陳部長世凱：明年3月開始。"],["黃委員健豪：好，因為你去年說要讓臺中來做，但目前好像只聞部長說，相關計畫……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，因為高雄是第一個試辦的站，我們要確定這樣子的系統是可運行的而且是安全的，而且也適合臺鐵，如果確定之後，我們就會開始推展到各個車站，尤其是人數比較多的。臺中車站我自己也在那邊搭車好幾次，發現假日的時候確實人潮滿擁擠的，月台其實是相對擁擠的，所以臺中站到時候應該也會列為我們優先設置月台閘門的站體之一。"],["黃委員健豪：那個評定標準，因為現在是等高雄先試辦……"],["陳部長世凱：對，要先試辦一段時間，確定系統是穩定可行的。"],["黃委員健豪：那我想問部長，現階段是選高雄市試辦，那其他城市的評定標準，你是要等到高雄試辦的結果出來，還是現階段可以來看哪些站點是大站或小站，來決定要不要裝設這樣的東西？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請臺鐵董事長？"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒問題。"],["鄭董事長光遠：關於月台門的設計，我想我們會選高雄，是因為臺鐵的車種太多了，所以它的作法就不像高鐵一樣可以一式，所有的車站都一樣，在這個情況之下，我們就先看高雄現在這個方式是不是適合臺鐵？至於人潮的需要，當然我們現在已經開始評估哪些是需要做月台門的。"],["黃委員健豪：我具體跟部長、董事長建議，臺中五權站、太原站過去曾經發生過意外，如果從人潮來看，松竹站的人潮從去年到今年提升了20%，因為重劃區的關係，人口變多，像這種人潮明顯增加、但它本來不是什麼A級站、一級站，而是屬於小型地方站的，本來是這樣，一開始像什麼松竹、太原、五權應該很清楚，都只是區間車停的小站，但是現在隨著人口成長，大家都把它當成捷運在坐，我想這也是交通部樂見的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：當成捷運在坐之後，人潮提升非常多，所以未來是不是可以把這些本來的小站，因為人潮提升之後，來裝設月台門，有沒有機會往這個方向來思考？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，隨著人口成長、旅客成長，我們會列為考慮之一。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝董事長。","接下來，今天的主題是討論安全問題，我們回顧一下，其實每次遇到重大事故，就喊要見警率，從108年、113年到114年，每一次只要看到臺鐵或公共運輸出問題的時候，就會喊見警率、見警率、見警率，但實際上我們看預算，當然不全然是你們的問題，警察的缺額比例，預算員額有910人，但現在只有726人，當然這是內政委員會的問題，但是每天在喊提升見警率，實際上有提升嗎？沒有。所以在安全的措施上面，不知道在這個部分臺鐵或交通部有沒有什麼作法？除了提升見警率之外，到底要怎麼做，或是你們要怎麼去跟內政部協調？是要增加警察呢？還是有其他的措施可以改進？"],["陳部長世凱：當然長期來說，跟內政部來爭取鐵路警察員額的增加或實際派遣人力的增加，我們會持續來拜託跟要求；另外，針對關鍵基礎設施，我們也會專案來跟內政部請求這個專案的警力；第三，保全的人力能夠更快速的來補充，也是一種方案，我也請臺鐵公司開始研議，看保全人力有沒有可能增加。"],["黃委員健豪：部長再看一下我提供的資料，這是我們去要的資料，從今年5月22號臺鐵玉里─花蓮區間車發生旅客攻擊事件以後，你們提出了一些加強護車的勤務，確實從4月開始到5月、5月到6月、6月到7月、7月到8月、8月到9月底都有相關紀錄，就是這個專案進行了大概半年左右，但是928之後這個專案好像就停止了。我要講的是發生重大社會事件，臺鐵很積極，會馬上請大家來協勤，提升見警率，可是這個專案結束之後又回到正常，這樣會讓一些有心人士或不定時炸彈有機可乘。在事件發生的當下見警率能夠提升，護車班次能夠提高，那平常到底是人力不足的問題還是什麼問題？我覺得這部分是交通部跟內政部要一起去檢討的，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們一起來檢討。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長要回應嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，我想提高見警率，我們最近跟鐵警局有一個非常好的共識，就是他們要跨區、跨域來執行勤務，也就是說如果他到了臺中以後，他可以往下一個非轄區的部分去做，因此，我們跨車的人力本來是每週439人，現在已經增加到687人，每週的車次也由原來的453次增加到700個車次，已經有大幅的增加。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝董事長，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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是那當然我知道部長也很很用心也有自己有跑到我們南部來看一下整個疏運的狀況但是最近有發生了一個高鐵這個有乘客因為這個行李的關係下不了車一個狀況"},{"start":179.457,"end":208.456,"text":"那我有特別提到明年至少有九個連駕那我們在整個鐵路公路還有這個高鐵運輸的部分我們有沒有做一個比較嚴謹的一個規劃我想我們應該避免這樣一個狀況發生怎麼樣做營運跟委員報告對交通部來講我們希望各個運具的運量要均衡所以這幾年我們一直在努力說希望鼓勵大家去搭國道客運那那個都有打折甚至最低打到六折六五折"},{"start":209.076,"end":235.581,"text":"那都是由交通部這邊來補助讓大家可以去搭乘不一樣的運具台鐵也很舒服那國道客運也很舒服但最近確實有觀察到很多的民眾是習慣搭高鐵那高鐵越來越擁擠的這個議題其實我們從這一兩年來我們一直在討論這個議題那最嚴重的就像委員您所提出來的高鐵上有人下不了車這個對旅客來講是蠻嚴重的事情"},{"start":236.101,"end":254.513,"text":"那我們也在跟高鐵公司正在研商看什麼樣的方法例如說是不是哪一些特別會擁擠的班次我們的自由座的人數有沒有要管控因為如果你完全不管控的狀況底下大家就是把它塞到滿塞到滿就會有上不了車或下不了車的問題"},{"start":255.513,"end":280.818,"text":"那這個部分我們還在討論我們幾乎每天都在坐高鐵我們都看得到因為我們現在很多國外旅客大家都大包小包啦行李非常大非常多而且都很大那尤其我們一些像板橋業或什麼這些小站的停留時間比較短那我們的工作人員如果沒有注意真的就會發生這樣下不了車的狀況對沒錯變工這個我要到台中或是哪裡的人被擠在車上所以我覺得"},{"start":281.818,"end":309.034,"text":"當然這個今天高鐵是董事長沒有來未來應該是不是要檢討像董事長講的部長講的未來針對自由做的部分還是有沒有這個整個運量調整的部分有沒有怎麼樣一個分流的一個措施應該去思考一下是 報告員我們這個會持續跟高鐵公司來研商確實要做人潮的分流那甚至是人潮的管控這個部分其實要去做如果我們做讓他禮拜一早上禮拜一早上跟禮拜五下班更恐怖"},{"start":309.795,"end":317.206,"text":"對 都會塞得很滿 都會塞得很滿好 這部分再麻煩 我們這個部分我們來跟高鐵公司一起來那麻煩我們台鐵政董事長 謝謝"},{"start":328.022,"end":349.157,"text":"董事長我想我們現在台鐵公司化之後大家都寄予厚望那我知道您這個上任之後您也一直在努力調整我們這個整個一個內部的環境但是現在我們工會的部分因為這個過去也有一個類似這個跟我們公司體制裡面有一些抗衡的一些包含捍衛勞工權的一些做法"},{"start":349.938,"end":357.868,"text":"那董事長 未來針對這樣的一個廉價還有我們這個勞工的一個權益問題 董事長有沒有什麼樣的看法 會不會再發生一個抗爭的一個事件"},{"start":359.185,"end":386.025,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那事實上跟工會這邊我一上任以後我一直跟我們的工會保持一個非常通暢的一個協調那他們最關心的這個12項這個福利事項那我也在裡面最重要的兩點就是一個是夜點會一個是主管加擠這個部分我們已經通過董事會的這個核定那其中夜點會我們從120增加到最高400塊"},{"start":387.506,"end":409.01,"text":"那另外我們的這個主管加級方面大概也都是加了50%以上所以這一部分的話現在已經送到董事會裡面送到這個交通部這邊來核定如果核定以後我們可以夜點會我們明年的1月1號就可以來實施那這個主管加級的話我們會今年會回溯到今年的1月1號那這樣的話我想這樣的話對工會應該有這個"},{"start":412.771,"end":436.444,"text":"一個非常像作用的好的作用那其他的部分我們也持續在檢討董事長我想我們這個見了好幾次面我也有特別跟你提到我們這個年輕的這個同仁的一個心聲他們有些住在屏東住在高雄但是因為當時分發在東部或在北部感覺做廚跟吃飯就沒有了"},{"start":437.344,"end":457.373,"text":"怎麼樣回家帶回家每次他們的使徒都跟我說委員你把手機都調回來好不好我說因為你們公司有調動的一個制度但是我們還是期待在招考的過程裡面真的要有要有一樣相關的配套措施啊能夠讓這些年輕人能夠願意回到我們自己的家鄉這樣子這他們都很客氣啦"},{"start":460.174,"end":479.76,"text":"改天他帶不下去就跑去別的地方考試因為我們的基層的同仁都在缺因為都調不回來這是一個很嚴重的一個困境部長願意支持這樣的一個處理方式嗎報告委員我也相當支持因為確實台鐵要留才除了薪資以外他整體的勞動條件然後還有就是他的住宿的問題"},{"start":480.7,"end":499.961,"text":"如果可以讓他自己在自己的家鄉當然就很好對於未來流財一定會有幫助那我也請台鐵公司我們朝這個方向來演繹看怎麼協助所有的年輕員工可以更幸福的在這個地方工作對了我們都期待大家真的能夠安居樂業這個是我們幸福企業的一個表徵那最後我想"},{"start":500.862,"end":526.823,"text":"那個部長 針對屏東的交通建設高鐵 南延 屏東 還有我們這個訪寮大平台的計畫 甚至這個屏南快速道路 我想多次我在院會跟委員都在質詢 是 我知道部長跟我們相關的主管都很用心但是速度真的有比較慢了 是 尤其我們這個鐵路也沒有雙軌這個例如我到 到現在那個屏南快速道路還要好幾年 高鐵"},{"start":529.225,"end":552.902,"text":"2039 我們的中北巡邏都跟我說這不是坐得到的真的聽到都心酸了部長真的你要展現你的決心均衡台灣交通建設覺得是重中之重部長能承諾加快施程嗎好 報告委員這個部分我們全力來加速有很多的交通建設都是大家所期待也是真正要均衡台灣必須要做的一個前提所以我們交通部會全力來加速那最後針對我們這個捷運這個小港到"},{"start":557.128,"end":566.365,"text":"林編這條我想我們最近也跟高雄市政府繼續在溝通協調那目前的進程還有所謂的施工方式局長有沒有新的變化"},{"start":567.698,"end":590.907,"text":"我想目前我們在這個月初有召開過一次會議邀請屏東縣政府跟高雄市政府來做討論我們後面會繼續來做溝通因為現在是系統跟這個高架地下還有這個石化園區上面的這個相關的這些議題要做出了 部長這是屏東第一條啦 是是 希望不要胎死腹中我很擔心 好好我們一起來努力 拜託一下 謝謝來努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。最近汽車市場瀰漫著一個新的訊息，尤其是針對目前的臺美貿易談判，最近聽說美製的車輛進口關稅可能會降到零，所以這些汽車新購族躍躍欲試，不曉得部長有沒有接到這樣的訊息？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，交通部是負責安全審驗的部分，至於關稅的部分是財政部，我們目前沒有接到他們任何的訊息。"],["徐委員富癸：部長認為如果一口氣宣布到零，整個國內交通的影響跟環境會不會受到衝擊？有人說，這個對特斯拉才有好處，部長認為呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得對於整體的車市應該都會有滿重大的影響，車的價格或許會稍微調降一些。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們過去也一直提到運具電動化的目標，包含電動巴士也好，商用的小客車也好，過去我們有提到一個商用車輛電動化及無碳化減碳旗艦行動計畫，要提供計程車購車補助，每輛最高35萬，但是我們在明年的預算裡面並沒有看到這一項編列，這部分會執行嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我請司長回答委員。"],["胡司長廸琦：跟委員報告，商用車電動化旗艦計畫是由環境部統籌送院審查，院在9月30號已經核給環境部了，因為9月30號來不及編115年的預算，我們現在會著手編116年的預算執行。"],["徐委員富癸：所以還要再慢一年？"],["胡司長廸琦：對，因為已經來不及編明年的預算。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想推動低碳的環境也是我們要努力的目標。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其針對電動巴士的部分，感覺上我們的進度比較慢一點，這部分能不能加快進行？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，電動巴士如果是市區公車的話，我們還是在預期的進度上，這個沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：那我們……"],["陳部長世凱：預算也有編列，所以明年度如果有需要的話，各個客運公司提出來，我們都會來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我想這個你們應該列為很重要的一個目標。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我上一次質詢有特別提到，因為我們今年從9月到10月有3個連假，當然，我知道部長也很用心，自己有跑到我們南部來看一下整個疏運的狀況，但是最近發生了高鐵有乘客因為行李的關係下不了車的狀況。我有特別提到，明年至少有9個連假，在整個鐵路、公路，還有高鐵運輸的部分，你們有沒有做一個比較嚴謹的規劃？我們應該避免這樣的狀況發生，要怎麼樣做因應？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，對交通部來講，我們希望各個運具的運量要均衡，所以這幾年我們一直在努力，希望鼓勵大家去搭國道客運，都有打折，甚至最低打到六折、六五折，都是由交通部這邊來補助，讓大家可以去搭乘不一樣的運具，臺鐵很舒服，國道客運也很舒服，但最近確實有觀察到，很多的民眾是習慣搭高鐵。高鐵越來越擁擠的這個議題，其實我們這一、兩年來一直在討論，最嚴重的就像委員您所提出來的，高鐵上有人下不了車，這個對旅客來講是滿嚴重的事情，我們也正在跟高鐵公司研商，看用什麼樣的方法，例如是不是哪一些特別會擁擠的班次，自由座的人數要管控，因為如果在完全不管控的狀況底下，大家就是把它塞到滿，塞到滿就會有上不了車或下不了車的問題，這個部分我們還在討論。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，因為我們幾乎每天都在坐高鐵……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["徐委員富癸：我們都看得到現在很多國外旅客大家都大包小包。"],["陳部長世凱：是，行李非常大。"],["徐委員富癸：非常多，而且都很大。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其我們一些站，像板橋或一些小站的停留時間比較短，工作人員如果沒有注意，真的就會發生這樣下不了車的狀況。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：變成要到臺中或是到哪裡的人被擠在車上，所以我覺得……當然，今天高鐵史董事長沒有來，但未來是不是應該要檢討，像部長講的，針對自由座有沒有整個運量調整的考量，有沒有怎麼樣分流的措施，這應該去思考一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，這個部分我們會持續跟高鐵公司研商，確實要做人潮的分流，甚至是人潮的管控，這個部分其實要去做，如果不做，讓它……"],["徐委員富癸：尤其禮拜一早上跟禮拜五下班更恐怖，因為人潮更多。"],["陳部長世凱：對，都會塞得很滿。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分再麻煩部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們跟高鐵公司一起來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：麻煩臺鐵鄭董事長，謝謝。董事長，現在臺鐵公司化之後，大家都寄予厚望，我知道您上任之後也一直在努力調整整個內部的環境，但是現在工會的部分，過去跟公司體制也有一些類似抗衡的行為，包含捍衛勞工權益的一些作法。董事長，未來針對連假還有勞工的權益問題，你有沒有什麼樣的看法？會不會再發生抗爭的事件？"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員的關心。事實上，跟工會這邊我一上任以後，一直保持非常通暢的協調，他們最關心的十二項福利事項，我也在裡面最重要的兩點，一個是夜點費，一個是主管加給，這個部分我們已經通過董事會的核定，其中夜點費我們從120增加到最高400塊。另外，主管加給方面，我們也都加了大概50%以上，這部分現在已經送到交通部核定，核定以後，夜點費我們明年1月1號就可以來實施。主管加給的話，我們會回溯到今年1月1號，我想這樣的話對工會應該會有非常好的作用。至於其他的部分我們也持續在檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我們見了好幾次面，我也有特別跟你提到年輕同仁的心聲，他們有些住在屏東、住在高雄，但是因為當時分發在東部或在北部，光是租房子跟吃飯，薪水就沒了，要怎麼回來娶妻生子？每次他們的長輩都跟我說：「委員，你想辦法把他調回來，好不好？」我說因為你們公司有調動的制度，但是我們還是期待在招考的過程裡面，真的，董事長，要有相關的配套措施，能夠讓這些年輕人願意回到自己的家鄉，不然說真的，他們都很會考試，改天他待不下去就跑去別的地方考試了，我們基層的同仁永遠都在缺，因為都調不回來，這是一個很嚴重的困境，部長願意支持這樣的一個處理方式嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我也相當支持，因為確實臺鐵要留才，除了薪資以外，它整體的勞動條件，然後還有它的住宿問題，如果可以讓他在自己的家鄉當然就很好，對於未來留才一定會有幫助，我會請臺鐵公司朝這個方向來研議，看怎麼協助所有的年輕員工，可以更幸福的在這個地方工作。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我們都期待大家真的能夠安居樂業，這才是幸福企業的表徵。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，部長，針對屏東的交通建設，高鐵南延屏東還有枋寮車站大平臺的計畫，甚至是屏南快速道路，我多次在院會跟委員會質詢，我也知道部長跟相關的主管都很用心，但是速度真的是有比較慢，尤其我們的鐵路沒有雙軌，屏南快速道路還要好幾年，高鐵要到2039年，我們的長輩都跟我說，不知道這些他們還能不能坐得到？真的聽了都很心酸。部長，真的，你要展現你的決心，「均衡臺灣」，交通建設絕對是重中之重，部長能承諾加快時程嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們全力來加速，有很多的交通建設都是大家所期待的，也是真正要均衡臺灣必須要做的前提，所以我們交通部會全力來加速。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，針對捷運小港到林邊這條線，我們最近也跟高雄市政府繼續在溝通協調。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：目前的進程還有施工方式，請問局長有沒有新的變化？"],["楊局長正君：我們在這個月月初召開過一次會議，邀請屏東縣政府、高雄市政府討論。後續會繼續溝通，因為現在有系統、高架跟地下以及上方石化園區相關議題需要處理。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這是屏東第一條啦！希望不要胎死腹中，我很擔心。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們一起努力。"],["徐委員富癸：拜託一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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並持續進行以往山區之最終遷改路徑相關作業 那我要說的是其實嘉明村的人 大多都認同就是要把這個高壓電塔遷往山區這個是他們認同的 但是呢經過這麼多年 他們也常常問因為看不到進度 所以想了解一下相關進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":110.184,"end":130.351,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子主要是也談了一段時間了啦那最主要就是因為路線的可能還有一些爭議啦雖然往山區這邊來移動但是需要一些溝通啦因為我們重點都是在所以我就是想要了解到底有沒有努力跟族人溝通"},{"start":131.997,"end":142.364,"text":"一直都持續在開會經常開會嗎對 開會主要是另外一邊要移過去那邊那邊也有一些爭議在我是這樣想109年"},{"start":144.864,"end":168.313,"text":"我不知道之前有沒有啦但是我是109年上任今天你看已經6年了那主任也常常在問所以這個部分今天就是提醒要最起碼要讓我們知道相關進度為何困難在哪裡那到底做過多少場次的溝通座談這個部分可不可以給辦公室一些資料好 詳細情形再給OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":171.374,"end":188.123,"text":"那第二個部分因為我們原住民很多的部落都是經過兩到三次的一個集體性的遷村那我們也很慢就是設置水管那很多的部落他設置水管至今"},{"start":188.923,"end":217.837,"text":"有的已經50年有的40年不等但是呢我們也很希望說可以趕快配合我們水公司這邊的一個管線汰換工程所以我們也積極的就民眾陳情來爭取那像去年113年以屏東來講我看到的就是我們泰安鄉的萬安還有馬家鄉的嘉義村山地門鄉的青山村還有馬家鄉的山河村"},{"start":218.757,"end":222.624,"text":"我看到有爭取到啦但是我比較不理解的就是"},{"start":223.669,"end":249.219,"text":"今年6月才看到台水公司的一個新聞稿說要積極推動降漏的工作那降不降漏是一回事但是我看到我們原鄉很多的那個鐵管生鏽而且是鐵管還能夠破碎生鏽到破碎那個水出來都是紅紅的其實都是急需排優先管線汰換"},{"start":250.6,"end":259.056,"text":"我不曉得是你們的標準是怎麼樣至少我看到今年就比去年少很多所以想了解一下"},{"start":260.427,"end":282.463,"text":"像今年我看到的就是只有來義鄉的義林村還有山地門鄉的山地村感謝委員的提示那我想水公司針對管線汰換依照我們有一些這個汰換的一個標準包括破管的頻率包括剛剛委員提到的對水質的影響我想這個部分我們都有再積極的依照我們的這個相關的標準的作業來處理"},{"start":283.263,"end":296.753,"text":"那有關剛剛這個委員關心的這個原鄉的部分呢我們大概113年大概有辦理了六件的一個管金工程大概有1.13億的貸款的經費那這個114年的部分我們目前對啊 你們才發新聞稿所以要積極大概有五件 目前還有五件那分布在那個這個來義 山地門 春日 滿洲那我講這個部分我們一些細目的一些部分我們會跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":310.702,"end":325.047,"text":"我只是要表達其實很多部落的管縣真的都已經歷經50年所以我希望說這個部分要考量到原鄉的一個需求好不好那最後還是再請教一下關於那個海嵐法的問題因為"},{"start":327.088,"end":346.082,"text":"我們其實就是因為這幾年來特別是像今年就已經是海嵐斷裂已經9次所以我們就很關心這個修法的問題但是這個除了抓不勝抓 不好抓還有不好定罪的問題以這個今年8月29號這個是首度"},{"start":348.604,"end":364.336,"text":"有針對破壞海欄的船隻及船員啟動刑事調查而且有二審判刑三年這個是中國籍的船長但是呢這也引發我們去思考就是領海之外的犯罪要如何防範"},{"start":365.777,"end":394.125,"text":"而且定罪 所以在這邊原本刑法第三條它是指說可以適用的是領域內的犯罪或船艦或航空器所以像這種在領海之外的也許可以用刑法第四條它的結果如果是結果有在中國民國領域內的話也算領域內的犯罪但是我們就是擔心像這種沒有造成顯著災情或者是未遂那能不能夠適用"},{"start":395.505,"end":411.11,"text":"那又或者是說像我們今天的這個自來水法為什麼要修法就是看到這個判罪他就是適用第97條之一因為他是二審還判刑三年所以他是用了第一項他只是認定他就是毀壞"},{"start":412.85,"end":437.387,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們主張的就是為了避免這樣子的一個情況發生所以除了我們希望刪除這種像第二項的這種主觀意圖的條款那也希望可以去新增但書就是在中華民國領域外犯本條之罪者亦適用之不曉得部長您的意見如何"},{"start":438.918,"end":460.676,"text":"現在我們就是連過失事上也有刑罰了已經把他加進來了不會說你是說我不知道我不是故意的只要有造成破壞過失也要刑罰那主觀翻譯那個更是加重現在部分就是修法的方向就是往這個方向我們就是往這個方向讓他可以去適用這個刑法第七條"},{"start":461.917,"end":488.384,"text":"谢谢 谢谢武林法委员谢谢所以其实我们只要咨询让他们知道说这个地下它是有这些管线的那你当然你还过去就是故意这个东西就没有什么样的所谓的有模糊空间所以我们修这个法就是一定要让它有研法然后去做一个管制那我们现在请黄国昌委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時22分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。今天有審查電業法、天然氣事業法、自來水法。這三個法，其實我也都有提案，不過我想先來關心一下，我們地方族人跟水、電有關的陳情。","第一個部分想要請教一下，我在上一屆剛剛上任立委的時候，在花蓮秀林鄉有一個陳情案，他們這地方就是挨家挨戶挨著電塔，台電這邊也有一個花蓮北埔線路的工程，叫做佳民村替代方案，當時其實我是拿到一個回復，它說考量地方用電需求，線路最遲須於110年底前完成之即迫性，期待能夠獲得鄉親同意，先以原路徑完成送電後，再儘速拆除佳民村境內的既設舊線路，並持續進行移往山區之最終遷改路徑相關作業。我要說的是，其實佳民村的人大多都認同把高壓電塔遷往山區，但是經過這麼多年，他們也常常問，因為看不到進度，所以想了解一下相關進度是怎麼樣。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，這個案子主要也談了一段時間了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊。"],["王總經理耀庭：最主要就是因為路線可能還有一些爭議，雖然往山區這邊移動，但是需要一些溝通，因為我們重點都是在爭議路線需要協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以我就是想要了解，到底有沒有努力跟族人溝通？"],["王總經理耀庭：一直都持續在開會、持續在開會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：經常開會嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：對，開會。主要是另外一邊，要移過去那邊也有一些爭議在。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是這樣想喔，我不知道之前有沒有，但我是109年上任，你看已經6年了，族人也常常在問，所以今天就是提醒，最起碼要讓我們知道相關進度為何、困難在哪裡，以及到底做過多少場次的溝通座談。這個部分可不可以給辦公室一些資料？"],["王總經理耀庭：好，詳細情形再給委員辦公室。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。第二個部分，我們原住民很多的部落都是經過兩到三次的集體性遷村，我們也很慢設置水管，很多的部落設置水管至今有的已經50年、有的10年不等，但是我們也很希望可以趕快配合水公司的管線汰換工程，所以我們也積極地就民眾陳情來爭取。像去年（113年），以屏東來講，我們泰武鄉的萬安，還有瑪家鄉的佳義村、三地門鄉的青山村、瑪家鄉的三和村，我看到有爭取到，但是我比較不理解的就是，今年6月才看到台水公司的一個新聞稿說要積極推動降漏的工作。降不降漏是一回事，但是我看到我們原鄉很多的鐵管生鏽，而且鐵管還生鏽到破碎，那個水流出來都是紅紅的，其實都急需排優先管線汰換。我不曉得你們的標準是怎麼樣，至少我看到今年就比去年少很多，今年我看到的只有來義鄉的義林村，還有三地門鄉的三地村，所以想了解一下。"],["李總經理丁來：感謝委員的提示。我想水公司針對管線汰換，依照我們汰換的標準，包括破管的頻率、包括剛剛委員提到對水質的影響，這個部分我們都有積極地依照相關標準作業來處理。有關剛剛委員關心的原鄉部分，113年大概有辦理了6件的管線工程，大概有1.13億的汰管經費，114年的部分目前……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對啊，你們才發新聞稿說要積極，結果就變少了。"],["李總經理丁來：目前大概有5件，分布在來義、三地門、春日、滿州，我想一些細目的部分，我們會跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我只是要表達，其實很多部落的管線真的都已經歷經50年，所以我希望這個部分要考量到原鄉的需求，好不好？","最後還是再請教一下關於海纜法的問題。其實這幾年來，特別是像今年海纜斷裂就已經9次，所以我們就很關心這個修法的問題，除了抓不勝抓、不好抓，還有不好定罪的問題。今年8月29日首度針對破壞海纜的船隻及船員啟動刑事調查，而且二審判刑3年，這個是中國籍的船長，這也引發我們思考領海之外的犯罪要如何防範而且定罪。在這邊原本刑法第三條是指說可以適用領域內的犯罪，或在領域外之中華民國船艦或航空器內犯罪，所以像這種在領海之外的也許可以用刑法第四條，如果它的結果有在中華民國領域內的話也算領域內的犯罪。但是我們就是擔心像這種沒有造成顯著災情或者是未遂的情況能不能夠適用，又或者是像今天自來水法為什麼要修法？就是看到這個判決，他就是適用第九十七條之一，因為他二審仍判刑三年，所以他是用了第一項，認定他就是毀壞。我們主張的就是為了避免這樣的情況發生，除了希望刪除像第二項的這種主觀意圖的條款，也希望可以新增但書，就是在中華民國領域外犯本條之罪者，亦適用之，不曉得部長的意見如何？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，現在我們就是連過失也有刑罰了，已經把它加進來了，不會因為他說我不知道、我不是故意的……只要有造成破壞，就算是過失也要有刑罰。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：有主觀犯意的話更是加重，現在修法的方向就是往這個方向。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我們就是往這個方向，讓他可以去適用刑法第七條。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，我們只要資訊公開，讓他們知道這裡的地下是有這些管線的，你還過去，當然就是故意，這個東西就沒有什麼樣的模糊空間，所以我們修這個法，就是一定要有嚴法，並去做一個管制。","現在請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da511fcff4215c8c61c414a9ab9b55a87a24c51656f8b51a994a0b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:07:18 - 11:27:09","影片長度":"00:19:51","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:07:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:27:09+08:00","duration":1191,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.19409375,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.21096875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.80409375,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.23721875,"end":34.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.822843750000004,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.180343750000006,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.13784375,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.33346875,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.61159375,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.25909375,"end":79.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.14846875,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.21596875,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.82346875,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.97534375000001,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.22846875,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.74971875,"end":105.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.53346875000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.79034375,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.88721875,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.83159375000001,"end":120.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.19346875000001,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.39159375000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.42534375000001,"end":123.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.77971875,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.45471875000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.28534375000001,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.96659375000002,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.96221875,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.40346875,"end":165.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.91221875000002,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.23284375,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.30034375000002,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.35096875000002,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.73909375000002,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.78971875000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.97534375,"end":248.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.99096875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.02471875,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.31159375000001,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.43096875,"end":261.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.62721875,"end":271.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.75659375000004,"end":271.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.83659375,"end":274.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.85721875,"end":277.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.84409375,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker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請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎"},{"start":36.051,"end":60.518,"text":"現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在政治的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有費多豬瘟所以"},{"start":62.438,"end":91.013,"text":"非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移出來的對 一定是從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻 儘可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長 所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守 進到除夷系統"},{"start":91.613,"end":97.895,"text":"那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下"},{"start":98.983,"end":125.997,"text":"現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們"},{"start":127.592,"end":144.057,"text":"農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是 廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的"},{"start":154.48,"end":171.347,"text":"完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話"},{"start":172.648,"end":195.879,"text":"重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長"},{"start":196.839,"end":224.776,"text":"農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛"},{"start":226.317,"end":248.018,"text":"但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎"},{"start":249.139,"end":274.735,"text":"短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是"},{"start":275.015,"end":296.67,"text":"是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場"},{"start":297.691,"end":323.678,"text":"是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式"},{"start":327.239,"end":342.166,"text":"那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範"},{"start":343.286,"end":361.479,"text":"那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的"},{"start":362.359,"end":385.356,"text":"對 那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土"},{"start":386.597,"end":400.613,"text":"覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔"},{"start":401.274,"end":415.23,"text":"那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水"},{"start":416.511,"end":438.968,"text":"或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考"},{"start":439.808,"end":459.252,"text":"包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦"},{"start":459.432,"end":488.401,"text":"我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入"},{"start":489.662,"end":496.108,"text":"這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來"},{"start":504.415,"end":524.945,"text":"環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展"},{"start":525.845,"end":549.072,"text":"所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊"},{"start":552.333,"end":577.543,"text":"那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間"},{"start":579.652,"end":602.32,"text":"鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行"},{"start":604.201,"end":619.377,"text":"那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場"},{"start":620.578,"end":645.556,"text":"那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎"},{"start":646.316,"end":666.043,"text":"我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解"},{"start":666.423,"end":690.134,"text":"如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦"},{"start":690.794,"end":708.216,"text":"那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊"},{"start":709.958,"end":736.03,"text":"我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議"},{"start":737.33,"end":760.096,"text":"工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的"},{"start":761.536,"end":774.585,"text":"他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長"},{"start":775.592,"end":799.302,"text":"部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方"},{"start":802.548,"end":809.914,"text":"這個我們有一個表齁 這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛 對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況 對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡 法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查"},{"start":822.264,"end":838.363,"text":"所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛 所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有 委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實 那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛 所以我就很清楚的問你 他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實 他沒有上傳 你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎"},{"start":839.827,"end":849.894,"text":"基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組"},{"start":856.158,"end":870.465,"text":"對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛"},{"start":871.105,"end":893.803,"text":"剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理"},{"start":894.423,"end":918.361,"text":"因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市"},{"start":919.99,"end":923.072,"text":"對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎"},{"start":937.262,"end":961.747,"text":"他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去"},{"start":962.407,"end":985.934,"text":"那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少 針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦 我有看到那個表格做好一個比較 那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔 那很多個縣市嗎"},{"start":988.922,"end":999.505,"text":"我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞"},{"start":1001.926,"end":1023.805,"text":"部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的"},{"start":1025.026,"end":1051.956,"text":"也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式"},{"start":1052.936,"end":1067.345,"text":"今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施"},{"start":1069.371,"end":1095.002,"text":"委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛"},{"start":1096.002,"end":1118.168,"text":"林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全"},{"start":1118.948,"end":1136.431,"text":"如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個"},{"start":1137.692,"end":1155.884,"text":"強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用"},{"start":1156.844,"end":1180.295,"text":"長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是"},{"start":1186.198,"end":1188.907,"text":"好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請農業部部長和環境部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長、彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：廖委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：兩位部長好。其實討論這件事情，也要看整個時間的流程和整個工作的流程，到底哪一個環節出了問題？首先請問，這次非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在臺中市政府的疫調報告，雖然初版出來了，但是初版裡面還有一些問題必須釐清，所以現在正式的報告還沒有出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來，並且進入到所謂的廚餘體系當中，除了邊境上的漏網之魚外，還有其他的傳染途徑嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：過去臺灣並沒有非洲豬瘟，所以非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移入……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，一定是境外移入的。"],["陳部長駿季：但是在我們的防衛機制裡面，第一關就是邊境攔阻，儘可能的攔阻，然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚進到廚餘系統，而落實廚餘蒸煮條件，就是最後的把關，這個部分如果能落實稽查就比較沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你剛剛也講到，邊境先失守，進到廚餘系統，接下來就是廚餘系統要怎麼管理的問題，對不對？照這個流程圖來看應該蠻清楚的，現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現，經由邊境輸入相關製品而帶到臺灣來，然後是地方的通報、圍堵等等，現在則禁止廚餘養豬，推動肥料化、能源化、焚化備援，我想要請問，政府政策的長期方向是什麼？未來究竟是要持續廚餘養豬，還是……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我跟委員報告，農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵廚餘養豬做轉型，從108年、107年間的兩千多場，一直到現在434場，表示這樣的一個轉型是有用的，另外就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是如果這件事情……"],["陳部長駿季：我先說，廚餘養豬本身的廚餘如果經過蒸煮，落實執行，那麼飼料本身是安全的，所以非常重要就是這些廚餘的監控，如果能夠落實它的監控，以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好。換句話說，部長的意思就是，如果繼續使用廚餘，重點在於管理，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，所以像我們現在的管理，等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘，在管理上會是一個很大的挑戰，管理的部分，我們等一下再來討論。如果短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話，我想請教環境部長，農業部宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬，而環境部的報告說，禁餵豬之前，全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日生產約2,115噸，其中1,324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系，是去化再利用的最大宗，禁餵後雖然有堆肥或是厭氧發酵跟其他再利用的量能，合計是1,620噸，仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或掩埋因應。本席想要理解的是，目前的這個短缺，如果閒置量能全開，也就達到1,620，然後再加上焚化跟掩埋，有辦法完全去化嗎？是這樣子嗎？依照你們的計算是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，短時間是沒有問題，但長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來垃圾的處理，所以目前來看，我們也希望短時間內有一個更好的因應方式，不能夠拖太久。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然！所以，不管是禁餵廚餘之前後，掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理廚餘去化的管道之一嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的。"],["廖委員偉翔：在這個時期才特別允許，那之前呢？"],["彭部長啓明：以前也是可以允許的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！你就不要只講一部分。所以就是前、後都屬於其中一種去化方式。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要繼續請問彭部長，因為地方有部分民代反映，原本臺中市文山掩埋場對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理，可能會有部分垃圾外漏的情況，這張大概是10月24日以前的照片，但是你們環境管理署的顏署長在昨天下午舉行相關的記者會，10月26日的時候跟臺中市政府的副市長及臺中環保局一起到現場去勘查跟討論，最終決議為掩埋的方式。你們在視察的時候也說廚餘應該確實落實在環境管理，還要加強防範貓狗等動物覓食，同時用覆土掩蓋；臺中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範。昨天顏署長說：目前臺中廚餘改為掩埋處理後，都合法合規。然後昨天又再派人到現場督察。請問部長，督察的結果怎麼樣？已經都合法合規嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，10月26號的時候，我特別請我們副署長去的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，那個時候我也在現場。"],["彭部長啓明：原本我們上午在開工作會議的時候，臺中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場，這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我只是想問你們昨天去現場看的狀況如何？要給大家一個交代嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：昨天我們去看四個地方，其中兩個有進行定期的覆土，覆土就是不要引發環境衛生的問題；另有兩個沒有覆土，我們跟他們協商之後，他們也願意來改善。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以他們現在都配合中央的規範，一切依法合規嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。除了後端處理之外，其他的廚餘可能在源頭管控上也有一些需要改善的地方，例如一般家庭如果能夠使用廚餘機之類的機器，或是將廚餘高溫處理、破碎，並脫水，或是在商業或機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器，啟動源頭減量，然後脫水的預處理，這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積，就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒，也不會降低焚化爐的溫度。我想請問一下，有沒有評估安裝類似機器或是予以補助？就是這個補助政策，現在有沒有在思考？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我知道像屏東縣政府他們自己好像有補助，但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的想法，因為這個機器如果要到每一戶家戶做使用的話，我們過去是沒有這樣一個特別的措施。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是這次如果可以從源頭去做這樣的事情，應該也可以幫助很多。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道很多的民眾會自己減少廚餘，因為不一樣的廚餘機有不一樣的作法，有些還可以做成肥料。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席建議部長這邊可以去回去思考，看看怎麼來補助或者是鼓勵這件事情。請部長可以把這個建議帶回去研議。"],["彭部長啓明：因為現在有些地方已經在做了，所以我們會尊重地方他們的做法。"],["廖委員偉翔：你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣，中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入引導補助的行列？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會考慮看看，因為這個要一大筆預算。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來我想請教農業部長，臺灣養豬協會理事長潘連周說廚餘養豬七年前本來就要禁止，但七年來環境部並沒有真正做到，畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本，豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的，認為既然有人能夠幫忙去化，環境部也樂得先暫緩跟進，或是改進相關的設備，所以無論擴充黑水虻或生質能這些處理線措施都沒有顯著的進展，這也構成了豬農現在的困境。目前使用養廚餘養豬的有435場，其中一半養的是白豬，可以馬上改為飼料，另外一半養黑豬的，35公斤以上必須開始使用廚餘，若改成飼料，成本可能會大增。所以部長是不是同意針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼，減少農民的衝擊？我記得我們上禮拜也有開記者會，你們說要回去研議怎麼樣補助，這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個，不是只有黑豬黑豬吃廚餘，白豬也會吃廚餘，黑豬、白豬都會吃；但是禁止使用廚餘的時候，他會用飼料，我們也在規劃在禁止的這段時間，所吃的飼料跟廚餘之間的一個價差……"],["廖委員偉翔：要給予補助嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。我剛才說了，我們對於整個豬的產業鏈，在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以這個禮拜五前，部長會提出相關措施完整的補助方案，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為相關的補助方案要報院同意，我們會儘快來執行。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果，原本豬肉批發價每公斤是120元，如今已經衝破200元，有些可能甚至更高。零售商也都抱怨這個價格滿天飛，誰手上有貨，誰就可以決定這個市場。請問部長可了解這個問題的主因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是現在禁運的時候，對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高，但我要強調的是國產豬肉冷凍的庫存大概還有5.7萬噸左右，可以供應國內消費大概一個月的時間，所以這個部分，我們也特別……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們現在釋出了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我們也特別有一個平台……"],["廖委員偉翔：有平台了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有平台，透過這個平台，如果餐廳本身需要用量比較大的，他們可以跟平台來做穩定的部分；但是在消費端，因為冷凍肉的價格我們大概了解，如果後端有刻意哄抬的時候，我們也會透過經濟部或其他相關部門，應該要有適度的處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以本席就是建議你們，價格透明跟管理的部分很重要，相關的措施你們是不是已經在著手了？因為未來三週都是禁宰期，末端市場就已經在反應了。"],["陳部長駿季：還有兩個禮拜。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，大型的賣場還有頒布限購令，但肉也是被掃光，所以這個部分，包含滷肉店漲價15%、彰化肉園店停業十天，如果再演變下去，可能民眾會恐慌性的購買。這個部分你們是不是也可以針對相關需求，真正需要者，比如團膳業者、自助餐、賣場，優先供應？"],["陳部長駿季：我特別強調，對團膳業者我們直接媒合這些冷凍公會，所以團膳業者本身的料沒有問題；超市賣場的部分，也已經串接了。所以你去看超市賣場本身，它的價格是不變的，但是它的供應量可能會受到限制。另外是餐廳的部分，您剛才講的小吃店的部分，可能會有一些價格的浮動，所以我們今天的工作會議會討論，要不要啟動聯合稽查，這是不得已的手段，因為在這個時間點沒有溫體豬肉，都是用冷凍豬肉，冷凍豬肉本身的供應如果足夠的話，末端的消費不應該亂抬價，這個部分我想我們會適度的來啟動。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，部長，這部分要請你多加費心了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為這個是末端消費者的痛苦。"],["陳部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：甚至是小吃店相關的，他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊，這個也要麻煩你。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們院長有特別強調，在這段時間我們對物價的監控、物價的穩定一定要落實。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，請農業部長回座。","我最後一題要問彭部長。部長，環境部今天的報告在第3頁、第4頁有寫到廚餘蒸煮申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理，近一年有435家配合上傳，你說申報率90%以上共358家，低於90%的有77家，請問這77家分布在哪些地方？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們有一個表，每個縣市大概都有一些。"],["廖委員偉翔：每個縣市都有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以不是只有臺中出現這樣的狀況，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：那沒有達到100%的，有少上傳的，怎麼處罰？你們罰則在哪裡？法令依據是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上處罰不是原則，我們會發函給各個縣市環保局，要求他們去稽查。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛！所以你們對媒體的回應是有問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，如果業者沒有進行蒸煮的事實，那就會依照廢清法來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！所以我就很清楚地問你，他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實，你先把這兩件事情分開，他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上他要蒸煮……"],["廖委員偉翔：就沒有嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：他一定要透過這個系統來做監控，然後……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多，我想這個就不用再去辯論。"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是沒上傳沒罰則嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是罰則的問題，是他到底有沒有蒸煮。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，結論是蒸煮嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是本席現在問的是單純沒有上傳的問題，因為環管署顏署長在會中說明，「中央建置申報系統，讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具」，剛剛我們一直說輔助管理工具這件事情，在前面開頭的第一題我們就說了，如果你使用廚餘養豬，重點在於管理會有問題，對不對？所以我想要請問一下，大家很清楚知道管理要落實，但是你現在的輔助系統，他上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下，你怎麼落實管理？本席舉例，像日本他們的做法可能有很多都是共同烹煮或集中管理，然後再分配到豬農嘛！那這段時間以來，顯然你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬，可是管理上面沒有辦法精進，也沒辦法落實。","剛剛你也說了，沒有依照每天上傳的是分布在全臺灣各個縣市，現在變成好像只針對臺中市，這是一個系統的問題，因為環境部是主管機關，針對這件事情如果沒有罰則的話，請問你怎麼要求他們？而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節，他的照片是不是當天的，你們都回答不出來嘛！他如果是翻拍，你可不可以證明照片是當天的？這個都有問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你不能這樣說，因為我們在當天（禮拜天）的工作會議裡面，也在協助找出疫調的過程當中發現他的蒸煮沒有確實，所以我們副署長有特別提出來。至於你說其他縣市到底有沒有做，我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格，也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去稽查。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問一下，各個縣市現在平均，如果從1月到9月的話，各縣市稽查的次數是多少？針對廚餘養豬場。"],["彭部長啓明：這個請副署長來回答，我們有一個數據啦！我看到那個表格有做好比較，很多縣市是沒有問題的，的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點。"],["廖委員偉翔：有些縣市，有很多個縣市嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不多。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要表達的事情是，部長，你所謂的輔助管理系統，你應該是通盤地去檢視它是不是有漏洞，我要講的事情就是這個，好嗎？你剛剛說臺中市政府有問題，那過去連續3年他們都有獲獎。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，獲獎跟這個稽查是不一樣的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，你有說你是針對它的生……那你們的評判標準在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：那個是在廚餘，特別是針對外埔這個場，他們經營得不錯，回收再利用。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我要跟你說，這是一整個工作流程，中央有一個罰則，如果有一個強制令，胡蘿蔔跟棒子，你要求養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下，上傳完是一件事，稽查又是另外一件事，地方政府當然要落實稽查，這個我想沒有人會反對，可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢？當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候，你有沒有更好的集中管理方式？今天也有許多委員問到，為什麼共同烹煮場只有嘉義一個地方？其實這就是長期政策，回歸到第一題，我要問的就是，你的長期政策到底是什麼？你有沒有落實配套管理的相關措施？"],["彭部長啓明：委員的意見我們會接受，不過大多數縣市的稽查頻率是非常不錯的，那我們就不特別去說，我們有這樣的一個數字。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，所以臺中市政府目前到9月，針對廚餘養豬場稽查也都是破百次了，我要講的意思是，其實每一個環節都有關係，你不能一味地只說這個是地方稽查有問題。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們沒有、我們沒有……"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題，就是要跟你說你的上傳系統，叫做輔助管理系統，他們上不上傳的一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下，這會造成系統性的風險。","今天整個臺灣的養豬產業是2,000億的一個產業，甚至它關係到國人的食品安全，如果今天是台積電這樣一個公司的產值，他們會讓這樣子的風險存在在那裡嗎？如果你們是中央主管機關，這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實？需要有一個明確的罰則，因為針對那10%沒有照常上傳的，是不是應該給他一個強制性，讓他要符合你們的標準去做？甚至在通報系統上面，你的要求要怎麼樣落實，讓他們不能偽造，這應該是環境部要回去檢討，才可以解決系統性的問題，不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心，因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用。長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來，要持續使用廚餘養豬，那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有精進的方案出來，所以這一次我們也看到有一些可能要再改進的地方。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的精進方案什麼時間可以出來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們最近在防疫。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為現在首要，短期是防疫沒有錯，所以我說你在防疫的過程中，應該針對這一個環節去加強落實，因為你現在這一塊也是馬上要處理的，廚餘去化的問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔召委，謝謝部長。","接下來請黃秀芳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51ce8cfe70fcc5aaf514a9ab9b55a87a24c51656f8b51a994aa488f48b86ec085f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:46:19 - 11:07:10","影片長度":"00:20:51","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T10:46:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:07:10+08:00","duration":1251,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.41284375,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.74534375,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.55846875,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.807218750000004,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.71846875000001,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.64284375000001,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.74846875,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.71846875,"end":165.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.30034375000002,"end":201.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.87284375000002,"end":213.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.71471875,"end":231.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.10909375000003,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.02034375000002,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.65721875000003,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.35284375000003,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.20034375,"end":273.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.91721875,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.92534375,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.87846875,"end":284.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.31971875,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.10284375000003,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.56909375000004,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.67221875,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.99471875,"end":343.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.50471875,"end":360.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.24909375000004,"end":362.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.59034375000005,"end":367.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.85159375,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.72471875,"end":383.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.98784375,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.75784375,"end":443.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.46784375000004,"end":445.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.74596875000003,"end":466.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.02534375000005,"end":469.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.17284375,"end":476.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.73721875,"end":479.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.03659375,"end":477.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.72846875000005,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.48784375,"end":478.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.66909375000006,"end":483.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.66409375,"end":493.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.23659375000005,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.31221875000006,"end":496.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.69159375000004,"end":500.2059687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警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個"},{"start":137.529,"end":163.875,"text":"檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的"},{"start":165.015,"end":193.03,"text":"然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有"},{"start":193.61,"end":213.286,"text":"他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單"},{"start":214.775,"end":238.025,"text":"然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳"},{"start":239.105,"end":264.705,"text":"就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜"},{"start":267.026,"end":284.235,"text":"委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力"},{"start":285.376,"end":307.121,"text":"而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統"},{"start":310.248,"end":338.155,"text":"這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫"},{"start":340.732,"end":362.108,"text":"所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事"},{"start":363.008,"end":382.284,"text":"對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎"},{"start":384.045,"end":407.912,"text":"那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號"},{"start":409.252,"end":423.978,"text":"第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能"},{"start":425.018,"end":430.063,"text":"所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種"},{"start":447.095,"end":464.227,"text":"現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前"},{"start":468.015,"end":493.464,"text":"你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個"},{"start":497.728,"end":519.251,"text":"避重就輕 稽查是重點 但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要 那我們這套系統不重要嗎"},{"start":520.447,"end":536.809,"text":"這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料"},{"start":538.491,"end":545.539,"text":"這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖"},{"start":552.947,"end":556.549,"text":"等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示"},{"start":573.94,"end":578.226,"text":"所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡"},{"start":590.282,"end":618.675,"text":"你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理 你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊"},{"start":619.355,"end":627.159,"text":"核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務"},{"start":638.184,"end":659.614,"text":"我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦 如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎 如果像他講的還可以補船影像 那他的真實性我們要如何確保"},{"start":661.952,"end":681.987,"text":"我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦"},{"start":682.407,"end":689.16,"text":"那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦"},{"start":695.31,"end":719.301,"text":"我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到"},{"start":719.901,"end":736.617,"text":"好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊"},{"start":738.895,"end":765.02,"text":"這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那"},{"start":766.34,"end":790.718,"text":"台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次"},{"start":792.043,"end":815.761,"text":"以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入"},{"start":819.963,"end":825.108,"text":"地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦"},{"start":842.639,"end":855.098,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面 他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可 那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛 地方政府"},{"start":856.348,"end":872.655,"text":"原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規"},{"start":875.014,"end":901.04,"text":"他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊"},{"start":902.571,"end":921.001,"text":"他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看 有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤"},{"start":928.524,"end":932.685,"text":"地方政府這麼亂來 我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦 我不是在說考核業者啦 我在問你是地方政府 你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重 最重要 第一重要"},{"start":958.571,"end":977.563,"text":"現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規 屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規 不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理"},{"start":979.302,"end":994.6,"text":"這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊"},{"start":1000.12,"end":1022.514,"text":"中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任"},{"start":1028.077,"end":1045.849,"text":"續以為疑 搪塞一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過"},{"start":1048.231,"end":1063.131,"text":"中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講啦他講不出來 委員第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長"},{"start":1063.772,"end":1084.463,"text":"我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招 須以為疑他去看 跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個"},{"start":1085.564,"end":1107.646,"text":"督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力"},{"start":1112.165,"end":1129.725,"text":"你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員 這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商"},{"start":1130.29,"end":1137.762,"text":"你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的"},{"start":1144.785,"end":1171.982,"text":"這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼"},{"start":1172.722,"end":1182.687,"text":"然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場"},{"start":1200.817,"end":1211.562,"text":"然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變"},{"start":1214.179,"end":1228.771,"text":"包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘"},{"start":1231.593,"end":1247.221,"text":"如果你不是要永久禁掉的話 出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理 包括我剛才講的那一些問題 你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了 謝謝 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":725,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛才很多人問你，你一直強調對於廚餘的管理，你們要做到即時偵測、AI輔助，要即時監控，但我今天就要來跟你討論一下，你們的廚餘蒸煮申報系統，作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場，是不是落實了中心溫度設置90度以上，持續蒸煮至少1個小時的關鍵數位工具，都靠這一個嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，目前是。"],["林委員淑芬：但從臺中這個個案看得出什麼？從這個個案的反饋看得出來這個系統的設計有問題，為什麼？它現在看起來就像是設計成被動的資料儲存庫，而不是一個主動的風險管理工具。你剛才講的好像是你們要即時監測、AI輔助，但我現在要告訴你，你過去這些年來，從發現中國的豬瘟開始管理、監測，我們發現這些年來，你所使用的監測工具，其實沒有具備主動風險管理的能力，你們系統設計非常地粗糙，號稱示警警示的，其實是被動查詢的落後設計。在這種狀況裡面，核心數位的監管，我們一定要能夠具備主動預警，還有風險的分析能力，你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能，看起來好像有警示功能，但是你讓大家去看「當日未上傳」及「昨日未上傳」的養豬場資料，你這個功能只有兩個，今天沒有上傳的及昨天沒有上傳的，仔細看一下內容，這完全不是現代數位治理應有的主動預警機制，登錄完成以後，系統將直接導向警示視窗功能，在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳的，還有昨天沒有上傳的，然後它不會偵測異常。如果有預警的功能，主動偵測異常，你偵測到今天、昨天，連續好多天都沒有上傳，就應該要主動發電子郵件、簡訊或其他方式，通知沒有上傳的業主、通知地方政府，'通知中央，然後它要發出警報。可是事實上它沒有，它需要地方政府自己主動的登錄才能看到，而且只能看到昨天和今天的，它不會紀錄已經連續幾天的，通通都沒有。","第二個，你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力，它顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單，像臺中這一個案場的個案，他好幾個月都沒有登錄了，它的系統本身不會自動標示，也不會升級它的風險管理，通通沒有作用，它只是一個資料庫，這個業者連續30天沒有上傳，它還是只是顯示昨天沒有上傳、今天沒有上傳，就是這樣子。代表這個系統的後臺完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析及風險累計的邏輯，通通都沒有，而這樣被動紀錄每一天狀態的流水帳，它沒有辦法有風險管理的能力。那我現在要問你，部長，你覺得這套系統，你一直點頭、你點頭如搗蒜……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為我有去看這個系統，你說的問題的確都是……"],["林委員淑芬：你都認同、你都承認嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我都認同，對、對。"],["林委員淑芬：這套系統沒有發揮預警的作用，怎麼會設計一個如此被動、缺乏數據分析能力、沒有預警能力的系統，而我們這些年來竟然還靠著這種只有資料庫儲存功能、不是系統的系統承擔起防堵國安級疫病的重責大任呢？你自己都承認了，可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統。這樣講起來，雖然你現在承認它的問題，因為你是新任部長，當然覺得你可以承認，可是對國人來講，老實說，發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪！過去我們仰賴地方政府，結果地方政府是這副德行；過去我們仰賴這一套系統、以為它可以管理好廚餘，結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫，所以我們真的很失望啦！部長！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實針對這個問題，我們在今年就開始啟動因應，已經嘗試用即時監控、包含溫度計，設置在烹煮爐附近以及中心等4個點，甚至加上監視器，希望測試這樣到底可不可以……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事欸！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你說的事其實是人工的、被動的監測……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的問題是它沒有辦法主動預警，而且整個機制、系統的設計其實是有問題的、沒有辦法管理的，一個沒有辦法管理的系統竟然要承擔防堵國安級疫病的重責大任，這樣行嗎？而你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的。","你剛才回答的是我的第二個、接下來要問的問題：這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性。剛才已經講過這個問題這麼嚴重了，我還要再講，這套系統的設計也讓人家對於業者輸入資料的可信度打上問號，第一個是形同虛設的照片驗證機制。根據你們的操作手冊，系統是直到112年8月才增加了要上傳照片確認這個功能，阻擋拍攝時間超過24小時的照片。由於112年8月才增加，顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間，業者都可以輕易地用舊照片蒙混過關。所以在這個功能上線以前，我們所看到業者上傳的數百張照片是不是同一張照片、是不是舊照片，以及這些申報數據真實性如何，事實上這個系統在112年8月以前是沒有在把關的。你知道這個問題嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我有看到，的確有些業者的照片日期比較舊，但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，是在112年8月以後。"],["彭部長啓明：我請副署長回答。"],["林副署長左祥：報告委員，我想這個系統只是作為輔助工具，真正的重點還是要落實稽查，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在講這個是避重就輕，稽查是重點，但是稽查也要建立在有沒有申報在這套系統上。"],["林副署長左祥：不，如果它沒有申報，會增加我們的稽查頻率，我們的稽查計畫裡面就規定……"],["林委員淑芬：OK，那我聽懂了，稽查很重要，那這套系統不重要嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：這套系統也很重要。"],["林委員淑芬：你們大開方便的補傳功能！到現在，這套系統還幫業者開一道方便的大門，叫做「補傳功能」，允許業者因為不同原因補傳前幾天的資料。對於這種功能，我們可以理解為你們這麼友善，可以在業者設備故障、上傳工具有問題時讓他補傳，可是會不會太過寬鬆？"],["林副署長左祥：不會……"],["林委員淑芬：會不會讓部分業者心存僥倖，等被查到、被稽查的時候、等到被提醒之後才補傳資料？那事實上業者絕對可以心存僥倖的，因為你們不會發現。"],["林副署長左祥：不！會發現。"],["林委員淑芬：我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了，你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳、今天沒有上傳的，但連系統也沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳者、又不會有警示，所以這個系統沒人看。你現在可以說系統是輔助、要靠地方政府，你如果只這樣講，我沒話說。但是我要跟你說……部長，你來講講看，每日申報的核心意義在哪裡？為什麼還要做到即時監控、即時影像？部長，你剛剛一直這樣講，要AI管理、要即時監控、即時影像，你的副署長卻說這是輔助而已，還是要靠地方政府、地方政府的責任最重。我敢說，廚餘的回收再利用是你們的主要業務啊！是核心業務欸！整個回收、利用是你們主管的，而你的主管部門卻講這句話：「我們輔助」。就養豬產業，你們是輔助，但是整個廢棄物或廚餘回收再利用則是你們的核心業務！我是講廢棄物管理。"],["林副署長左祥：所謂的輔助是指輔助工具啊！我的意思是把它當作我們的輔助稽查工具。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問部長啦！如果照他這樣講，可以補傳、對業者非常友善，那即時監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎？如果照他講的，還可以補傳影像，那真實性要如何確保？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在的系統可以知道照片是什麼日期po上去的，像是洽興這一家，我們看到他們還用到幾年前的照片po上去。委員，我的確也看到這個問題，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！而你們是人工稽查啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我必須說，目前來看，大概百分之九十的廠商都是按規定申報、很規矩的啦！至於不好的，其實要透過地方政府，我們每個月都要求他們加強稽查力度。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要跟你講的是這個補傳功能會不會過於寬鬆啦！"],["彭部長啓明：我是覺得如果是補傳，雖然我們抓得到照片的日期，但是其實運用……"],["林委員淑芬：補傳照片的日期？什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：抓得出來。"],["林委員淑芬：確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們的系統我昨天特別看過。"],["林委員淑芬：好，召委，那我們改天去考察一下，看看這個系統怎麼可以抓到這張照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的，看看他們怎麼抓得到。"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["林副署長左祥：手機拍照會有拍照日期，業者傳上來之後，我們就可以從系統裡看到業者拍照的日期。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係啦！手機也可以拍照片啊！手機要是拍照片就是今天拍的，但那張照片可能是兩年前的啊！上有政策，下有對策，所以我要告訴你有這個問題。","一個系統的成功不是依賴設計而已，還取決於後端的執法和督導，從臺中這起個案，我們可以清楚地看到。根據環境部的養豬場檢核規定，如果沒有每天上傳蒸煮畫面，地方政府應每個月都查核輔導。但臺中市政府的實際作為是這樣：第一，關於查核，業者已經連續幾個月沒有上傳了，照道理來說，地方政府每個月都要查核輔導，但地方環保局──臺中市政府的作為，第一是稽查頻率遠低於中央規範，業者幾個月沒有上傳，結果他們去了幾次實地查訪？業者沒有上傳照片，他們實際查訪了幾次？"],["林副署長左祥：以114年來講，該養豬場從1月到8月上傳的頻率都沒有達到每天上傳，而臺中市去了兩次。"],["林委員淑芬：兩次，5月和7月？"],["林副署長左祥：對。"],["林委員淑芬：都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核。這是因為地方人力嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢？地方政府沒有做，我們中央要怎麼介入？地方政府沒有做，是地方政府不及格，中央要怎麼介入管理？許可他養豬是我們許可的，而他要承擔的……"],["林副署長左祥：許可是地方許可的。"],["林委員淑芬：我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦！在這種狀況下，就是有這樣的風險，而我們開放了這種許可，就要把風險管理好，然而地方政府置身事外，嚴重的是幾個月都沒有去稽查，更令人不解的是，去了兩次，兩次稽查的回報是什麼？沒有發現違規；地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規，他在7月、8月幾乎是零申報，為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論？稽查人員到現場查核了哪些項目，是不是只是形式上的訪問，而沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄、查閱現場蒸煮紀錄或設備運作的狀況？這一種有查等於沒查的稽查品質，他要承擔起全國豬瘟風險的管理責任，卻是這樣亂查，你上級要怎麼處理？中央介入的機制到底是什麼？有沒去看的；有去看了以後說沒問題、沒發現違規，這是什麼狀況啊！地方政府這麼亂來，我們要怎麼介入？部長，我在問你啊！"],["林副署長左祥：對於養豬場的稽查，當然我們有一個考核機制，就是……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在說考核業者，我問的是地方政府，整個廚餘的管理，地方政府的稽查是重中之重，是最重要的、第一重要的，現在地方政府去看了，然後說沒有發現任何違規，但事實上就違規啊！他還說沒有發現任何違規，部長，就體制上、制度面上、管理層次上，我現在問你，要如何介入、如何管理？這茲事體大，如果整個豬瘟的防線失守，經濟的損失恐達數千億，臺中市政府這麼離譜，請問你，制度面上我們要怎麼管理？中央督導的角色在哪裡？"],["林副署長左祥：我們三個中心每一季都會邀集各縣市召開稽查會議，在稽查會議……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是說臺中市政府這麼離譜，他說都沒有發現違規，你們就都採認？你們三個月邀集他們來開一次會，也沒發現他有違規啊！臺中市政府亂搞，不負責任、虛與委蛇、搪塞一下，你也沒發現啊！中央掌握了全國的數據，你最清楚他有沒有風險，這個業者已經好幾個月沒有上傳蒸煮紀錄，你不知道，而市政府騙你說查了沒有違規，你也被騙了，請問中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼？部長，你的副署長就不要再說了，他說不出來啦！"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，第一個，我自己看過那個系統，它是一個月、一個月的，這對於實際上發生的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是在講系統，部長，我現在講的是地方政府的稽查虛晃一招、虛與委蛇，他去看了，還跟大家說沒有發現違失，然後回來就交差了事，事實上你的系統顯示他每天都沒有申報、沒有處理，未來你們整個督導的程序、介入的管理制度，難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當然有，除了剛才講到的系統部分，我就不說了……"],["林委員淑芬：第一個，你沒有掌握高風險個案；第二個，對於地方政府的瀆職，你沒有管理和介入督導的能力，你過去沒有作為，那制度面上有沒有問題和缺失？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們會再來檢討改進，我們過去跟環保局一直都是夥伴關係，但如果地方沒有辦法處理好，我們應該如何去做一些該有的處置，這個我們會再來研商。"],["林委員淑芬：你要去解決、要改革，整個廚餘蒸煮申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常狀況，113年在77家養豬戶的申報當中，發現了82起異常，你們的異常可能是申報日數超過5天、蒸煮申報狀況不佳、廚餘再利用量超出許可量、有蒸煮日數卻沒有在事廢系統申報相關廢棄物、事廢系統有紀錄卻未上傳廚餘蒸煮紀錄等，這些異常事件的後續標準處理程序是什麼？然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地稽查、稽查結果如何、有沒有發現違規、有沒有處分、有沒有追蹤紀錄等，從你剛才的回答裡，我們看得出來都沒有追蹤，地方政府就是虛晃一招，繼續包庇，不願意真正管理，而中央也沒有在處理，所以針對全臺廚餘再利用的430場豬場，現在禁廚餘是臨時緊急應變措施，還是未來會整個禁掉？部長，你是要全面禁掉，還是臨時的緊急應變？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在只是緊急應變，未來我們會再跟農業部討論。"],["林委員淑芬：好，到底要不要永久性禁止廚餘？如果要的話，那我現在就問你，你們要如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘？又如果不是要永久禁掉，那麼廚餘養豬政策要怎麼精進管理，包括我剛才講的那一些問題？我想部裡面的管理就需要再改革、改進了。"],["彭部長啓明：是，委員，這個我們都注意到了，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，OK。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請廖偉翔、廖召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 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謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架"},{"start":31.235,"end":55.871,"text":"这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子"},{"start":56.872,"end":71.562,"text":"目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題 任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告"},{"start":72.463,"end":97.701,"text":"我們有去找幾天 他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的 召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天 稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子 延民會那個主流還不給我"},{"start":98.652,"end":128.055,"text":"所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好 這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛"},{"start":129.156,"end":145.57,"text":"是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。"},{"start":157.107,"end":171.257,"text":"原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度"},{"start":174.745,"end":197.017,"text":"讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺"},{"start":199.557,"end":209.549,"text":"連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們"},{"start":211.943,"end":236.693,"text":"人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是"},{"start":238.604,"end":255.571,"text":"辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是"},{"start":259.006,"end":275.199,"text":"電腦的部分 主機的部分 系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備"},{"start":276.69,"end":292.062,"text":"所以不用煩惱啦 不用像韓國那樣賣啦 不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多"},{"start":293.022,"end":311.881,"text":"的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政"},{"start":312.882,"end":333.775,"text":"但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個"},{"start":336.357,"end":351.812,"text":"公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台"},{"start":353.488,"end":374.466,"text":"會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是based on這樣的一個指引"},{"start":375.106,"end":398.073,"text":"等於就是一般開放型的open data的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段"},{"start":399.173,"end":427.248,"text":"現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個Try AI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊"},{"start":428.069,"end":447.349,"text":"我就跟他講 你的A卡手的 我就給他機密文件 給我寫一張之後 給我等一段時間 叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件 這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦 我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊 什麼內控而已"},{"start":448.655,"end":452.019,"text":"這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼"},{"start":461.81,"end":478.621,"text":"基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎"},{"start":479.341,"end":501.73,"text":"他也知名 我要做一個公文而已他也要登出 我們會有一個cross check的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事 我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦 這個非常重要啦沒有 我要先跟你示警就是說"},{"start":506.388,"end":533.502,"text":"這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎"},{"start":535.619,"end":563.756,"text":"風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛"},{"start":564.916,"end":576.022,"text":"這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好"},{"start":577.546,"end":602.902,"text":"你一定要去做 最後一個問題我來請教就是說 看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準 你就看那個標準很有意思第一類 政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長 司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的 你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六"},{"start":605.35,"end":624.378,"text":"第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年"},{"start":626.698,"end":644.152,"text":"當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定"},{"start":647.728,"end":669.335,"text":"我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平 這個制度 健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對 不是嗎"},{"start":672.513,"end":683.298,"text":"這點我跟委員報告啦 我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下 但是他要考慮的風險 黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員 公務人員 人力資源 這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面 你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":705.269,"end":727.209,"text":"第三類 反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少 三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡"},{"start":729.915,"end":756.389,"text":"其實我要跟委員報告 因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK 但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作 所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊 是嘛所以你就不要先給地方 中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼"},{"start":758.054,"end":779.052,"text":"越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有"},{"start":781.843,"end":802.975,"text":"你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是"},{"start":804.963,"end":805.804,"text":"我會講啦 警消啦"},{"start":822.071,"end":849.303,"text":"夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員"},{"start":851.314,"end":872.352,"text":"你去比較的時候 我怎麼比你跟我說的 我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦 你說的那個高風險的 我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家 跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦"},{"start":873.683,"end":898.748,"text":"有啦 最近就是老委員在講的那個喔 三天一天的 我們這次最近已經要簽名的 那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講 賴總統在講健康台灣的 對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環 尤其你們看到新年制度有 你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案 那你今年結束以後 黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理"},{"start":902.039,"end":918.285,"text":"會喔 很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":920.826,"end":934.48,"text":"不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理 制度上應該去做檢討好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時11分）謝謝召委。有請我們人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長，我看你們今天都笑咪咪的，我上來以後，你看那個智慧儀板已經降到1000ppm了，所以我來質詢，大家身體都很健康。但是還是要針對問題，人事總處，我記得我們上個會期，有關原住民族歲時祭儀假這個修法，假期已經從1天延長為3天，這個意義重大，但是以現在來看的話，這個假、這個社會跟族人對權利的認知其實也不太夠，沒有辦法去落實。上一次我質詢的時候，我說我們的行事曆裡面應該清楚去標示歲時祭儀假，不要只附一個網址，目標當然就是政策要落實，讓請假的人可以安心，你跟我說沒問題，人事長，結果你又跳票。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為原民會這部分還沒有公告，我們有去催，催了好幾次，它都還沒公告，所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫，所以我們現在用替代的方案，就是直接用網路hyperlink，讓它確定了以後，直接就到這個網址去查。上次我跟委員答應的、跟召委答應的就是把歲時祭儀那3天寫清楚，我有答應你這件事情，但是到目前為止，原民會還沒把那些資料給我。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個就是機關的問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊！因為我答應你，我一定會想辦法做到。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好不好？這個政策要去落實、要讓請假的人可以安心，因為這整個修法，我相信其實是對一個族群的尊重，立法院這個地方修法通過，我相信行政部門，機關跟機關之間，你們本來就是要去溝通好，現在已經要11月了，你們本來也要印了，說不定你們已經印出來了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們印好了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你印好了。你印好了，明年的時候，你就空白在那裡了！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我們只好透過網站的方式，用替代的方式來呈現。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不好啦！機關之間，你說原民會該什麼時候，你應該先跟它講，你在印的時候，你有去跟它商量嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們事先跟他們說了好幾次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：問題出在什麼地方？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且還有發函。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有發函？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有、有，不是只有用說的，還有發文。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那麼原民會就要打屁股了，其實這攸關整個族人在請假的權利，讓上班的單位，一拿去就馬上知道什麼時候是歲時祭儀假，立法院也通過了，這變成國家的一個制度，讓他可以很安心，好不好？有關這個部分，機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通。","第二個，上次我在質詢的時候，有提到國際的警示，韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火，公務資料全失，服務也都停擺，連韓國總統都出來講，這種早就預期到有可能發生的事情，竟然讓它發生了。我想要就教的就是，像人事總處掌管著高機敏的資料，我們是不是有備援或者異地的備份？我們要建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的備援，有關這部分，人事總處有沒有做好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員，事實上，這裡面分兩個部分，一個是系統的備援，就是我辦公室的機房死掉了，另外一組機房就開啟，那是第一種。第二個就是資料備份，這次韓國主要就是資料備份，我以前在財政部，我們資料備份一定有3份。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要問你現在呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我現在就是電腦的部分、主機的部分、系統的部分，我們有另外一組備份，還有另外一組資料備份在中興新村，我們有主機，還有資料的備份。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你的部分就是完整的資料備份，還有異地的備份都有具備了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定要的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以不用擔心、不用像韓國這樣？不會發生？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：韓國做到這樣，我也覺得很奇怪。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很「譀古」吧？所以這都是借鏡。另外，大家都知道AI大爆發，很多公務機關的公務人員，大家也都去使用，尤其是一些生成式的AI系統裡面，大家會寫寫公文或者發文的時候甚至會問它，這很聰明。但是我們最擔心的是，AI可以幫助行政，但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分，很有可能造成資料的外洩跟信任的危機。我不知道人總針對於我們這麼多的公務人員，尤其是政府部門也開了很多的課程，像是公務人員將很機密的東西丟到ChatGPT好了，丟上去了，要做公文也比較快，要問問題也比較快，造成整個機密有安全的疑慮。因為ChatGPT有後臺，會有整個資料外洩、有信任的風險，我不曉得人事長的看法如何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，大概分兩個部分，第一個，國科會有訂定使用的指引for所有的機關，我們人總基本上也是based on這樣的指引，等於就是一般開放型open data的東西本來就是在雲端，你可以透過生成式AI，不論是ChatGPT還是Gemini等其他的去詢問你私人的事情，但是跟我們開會、跟公務機關有關的，我們是採落地型的，直接在我們這裡，現在第一個階段是這樣。第二個階段，現在數發部也是在建構一個TryAI的機制，讓各個政府機關變成一個大內網的概念，讓所有政府機關去那裡用，不用讓每個機關各自去設立，因為每個機關各自設立的成本會比較高、管理的成本會比較高。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不，你答非所問，我的意思是公務人員在使用AI的時候，尤其我就跟你說，假設我是你的部下，我就將機密文件這樣拍一張之後就丟上去，叫它給我生成，這都會涉及到整個機密文件、整個資料有外洩的風險，我是在說這個。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那是內控的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼才內控而已？什麼這只有內控而已？這不是只有內控，但是就算是內控，這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣，這個是顯然可以預見的，那麼你的準備是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對，如果有的話就直接攔下來。第二個是從他的交易紀錄裡面去查……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們攔得下嗎？他如果放在你們的生成系統裡面，他在使用的時候，你們攔得下來嗎？他覺得他只是要做一個公文而已，他把機密……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，假如他要丟出去，我們會有一個crosscheck的機制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有問題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一定要做那個，不然等一下出事，發生事情，我們也要有一些紀錄去追溯查詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個非常重要。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：剛才召委說的那是紀錄的查詢……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要先跟你示警的是，這個顯然你一定可以預見的，要做好準備，一定會發生的，公務機關常常在洩密，哪會沒有？最會洩密的就是公務機關啊！外人怎麼去洩你的密，又沒有人知道，不是這樣子嗎？現在都有洩密的風險，更何況你用AI、你用ChatGPT，你用生成式的AI，哪有可能它的風險不會增加？不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：風險一定會增加，但是據我了解，大部分機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP，就是把所有可能有疑慮的東西，它第一層會攔截。第二層是從紀錄裡面去trace他有做什麼事情，如果覺得有高風險的，我們會調出來做分析。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我要跟你講的就是你們本來就應該要制定指引，這個指引一定要有，也就是你使用的規範，這本來就要去建置的。你現在是大量的訓練，讓公務人員去使用、讓他更方便，思考大家也變聰明了，但是我要提醒的就是這一些風險，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這些事情你一定要去做。最後一個問題是牽涉到中央機構員工一般健康補助的部分，我看你們的標準很有意思，第一類政務人員包括中央三級機關以上的正副首長、司長或相當等級以上的主管人員及中央二級機關以上之主管人員，每年一次的健康檢查補助是1萬6,000元。你看第二類四十歲以上的公教人員及連續服務滿一年的，兩年補助一次。你再看第三類，第三類我就很有意見，對於未滿四十歲且從事有危害安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員，每三年補助一次，當然要服務滿一年這合理，但補助金額變成3,500元，這就比較奇怪一點，既然認為他是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的，卻反倒三年補助一次而已。針對這樣的規定，不曉得人事長的看法是怎麼樣？這公平嗎？這樣的健檢補助制度公平嗎？人總是公務人力政策的整體協調者，你要負責整合整個福利的資源，規劃制度應該讓它更公平才對，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這部分我們還要和保訓會協調，因為健檢要點是他們訂的。剛才委員你說的是四十歲以下，但是他的工作風險比較高的，是不是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能說那是他們訂的，公務人員的人力資源本來就是你們在主責，針對各項福利政策，制度本來就要把它弄得更公平，不是這樣子嗎？依我來看，第三類的3,500元反而要提高，而且他是有危害安全及衛生顧慮的人，結果卻是三年補助一次，第一類人員一年是1萬6,000元，而這種有危害安全及衛生疑慮的，你反而三年才一次，而且錢還更少，只有3,500元，請問你的邏輯在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，關於這項費用的支出，中央的部分應該是OK，但是地方的部分我一定要跟地方協調，因為地方這方面的人有可能會比較多，所以要去計算他們的預算……"],["莊委員瑞雄：第三類不是只有地方啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：中央和地方都有啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以你就不要先把它推給地方，其實中央也有啊！就我來解讀這個叫大小眼，越危險的你反而三年才補助一次，而且金額還更少。你想想看，我們還規定到四十歲，很多公務人員其實不到三十歲就進去了，在那邊看大家都有，怎麼只有年輕公務人員沒有？會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了，年紀越大……其實健康檢查是不是應該用這樣的方式？而且那個級距差距太大，一年一次的補助1萬6,000元，三年一次的才補助3,500元，這個邏輯我想不通。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實最重要的是補助1萬6,000元的年紀差不多是在五十五歲到六十歲以上，四十歲以內的整體健康狀況坦白講會比較好，所以它的頻率及額度會比較降低，因為……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說，警消、夜班、基層的外勤人員，那種工作強度高、風險大的，三年一次你真的覺得夠嗎？如果是第一類的政務人員，你不要騙我了，對於很多很高階的文官，不是說不應該保障他，但是他的工作未必會比在第一線……尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消、夜班的人員，你去比較的時候到底是怎麼比？你跟我說這些我都聽不下去。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，針對你所說的高風險的部分，我們現在已經在簽院當中，針對委員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們跟考試院應該去建議調整，或者透過院際之間的政策協調機制來進行制度上的檢討。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有的，針對委員剛才所說三年一次的部分，我們這次簽院的就是改成一年一次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在賴總統在說「健康台灣」，其實這個也都是其中的一環，尤其你們看到現行制度也知道不夠，所以你們推出健康九九的方案，我問你，今年結束以後，明年會不會繼續辦理？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會啊！會繼續辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很好！針對我剛剛提的那個問題，我認為這反而是更危險、有健康及安全之虞的，結果三年才一次，而且金額最低，應該好好去做制度上的討論，這是一個很嚴肅的問題，不然都是高官，官等越高的人，他的身體檢查一年一次就補助1萬6,000元，結果更危險的警消、夜班的部分三年才一次，而且補助金額只有3,500元，這不合理，制度上應該去檢討，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：依先前的宣告，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：現在繼續開會。","接下來請葉元之委員進行詢答。葉元之委員，你知道今天都要保持70分貝以下，超過分貝太高就驅逐出會場。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51424b90ec9fc78583b08d4a2736e01e2b1e9be59762a4979e14c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:43:36 - 09:54:14","影片長度":"00:10:38","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:43:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T09:54:14+08:00","duration":638,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.29596875,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.68284375,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.15534375,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.37846875,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.67346875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.08409375,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.518468750000004,"end":39.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.87284375,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.70346875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.49471875,"end":83.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.48096875,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.83909375,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.89971875,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.90784375000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.02971875,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.80096875000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.03721875000001,"end":140.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.54909375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.97346875000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.97659375,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.40659375,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.61721875,"end":166.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.93721875,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.28721875000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.98721875,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.64846875,"end":182.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.42034375,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.57159375,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.45534375000003,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.42971875,"end":216.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.61534375000002,"end":202.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.73971875,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.73284375000003,"end":242.60909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.83534375000002,"end":279.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.49346875000003,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.79284375000003,"end":325.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.87721875,"end":309.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.22471875,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.89409375,"end":339.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.65721875,"end":340.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.15909375,"end":344.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.93909375000004,"end":355.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.43534375,"end":362.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.20659375,"end":361.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.11346875000004,"end":371.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.56784375,"end":420.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.28159375,"end":422.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.07034375,"end":438.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.71346875,"end":453.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.54346875000005,"end":446.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.56346875,"end":456.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.58784375000005,"end":490.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.45221875000004,"end":516.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.24971875,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.24846875,"end":526.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.8684687500001,"end":528.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.7922187500001,"end":534.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.4284687500001,"end":536.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.3815937500001,"end":559.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.0134687500001,"end":544.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start"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請工部長部長我們總共有海覽七法那在我們經濟委員會是三法那第二個是電業法它是相關要保護我們海底的電力電纜那如果說我們這一次有新增了過失範"},{"start":30.63,"end":49.159,"text":"的罰則還有可沒收犯罪的工具傳播就是說讓你們更有這個執行的方向以前是沒有的所以不知道怎麼去處罰他們也不會害怕因為就無法可管嘛那天然氣事業法要保護海底的輸氣管線"},{"start":50.499,"end":76.929,"text":"我們新增了過失犯的罰則也是一樣可以沒收犯罪工具還有船舶然後自來水法也是我們是針對海底送水管線那也是新增了過失犯的罰則還有可沒收的犯罪工具跟船舶大概我們這一次是給了我們更有可以執行的方向而且我們沒有這個"},{"start":79.151,"end":92.704,"text":"這些法令的話根本我們去說規範我們就不理你了即使抓到了也沒有用啊因為就沒有法所以這個為什麼我會這麼快去排這個海蘭三法因為非常重要因為我們發現"},{"start":95.325,"end":114.531,"text":"這個故意的甚至有一些這個政治意圖的也越來越多你無法去判斷它到底是經濟還是真的是政治所以我覺得我們就是把它在法的位階做到最好的保護那我們現在其實我們還有另外四法"},{"start":116.072,"end":145.292,"text":"部長 我們這另外四法當中其實有牽扯的範圍蠻大的有我們的數位部 交通部 國防部法務部 國營事業 民營業者還有我們海委會 今天大概還有我們的經濟部其實我們的七法裡面其實相關的非常的多那我們要怎麼做跨部會的協調平台因為我們是三法其他的四法在分屬各部會"},{"start":146.172,"end":167.722,"text":"那今天如果發生問題的時候誰去做直接執法因為真正的在執行我們海上的這個保護的基本上是海巡署在執行這樣的業務那我們法定了以後呢是讓海巡署就可以依照這個法去處理嗎我們請海巡署副署長"},{"start":169.649,"end":185.16,"text":"這個移種檢調機關這樣子有一個法有檢調機關在依照這些法去做處置嗎可是它的嚴重程度到底怎麼去判定來我們副處長海上石化機關是海域會很迅速"},{"start":185.62,"end":202.081,"text":"那現在這個法規定之後非常明確他明定違法要件包括過世犯包括涉案的傳播不問犯罪人所有就可以沒入得以沒收那另外還要加重刑責最重要的是發現就可以先扣嘛"},{"start":202.703,"end":230.055,"text":"就是有犯罪嫌疑的話比方說有過段外力過段疑似他我們可以放航機我們來研判那我們會報警檢察官我們都這個只要是扯斷電纜的外力扯斷我們都視為國安件那都會報警檢察官指揮偵辦因為這樣如果海上許可跟可以確定目標的話我們都會把他代案那現在這個案子的話代案的話 航港局都同意我們都因為是扣押的話都會用公務"},{"start":230.835,"end":252.147,"text":"安排船席所以这是在侦办部分第二个部分就是在预防那预防的话这个主管机关中华电信他有一个告警系统所有船舶船长是20公尺以上航速低于5节在海南区左右1公里换句话说可能就滞留可能下锚的那他就会发讯号AS讯号让他要离开"},{"start":252.907,"end":278.318,"text":"不過鴻太58號我們抓到這一艘他是把AIS關掉所以我們就是有這個系統然後我們把可疑傳播96艘航空軍提供給我們資料96艘我們分高中低危險程度我們做不同的管控像鴻太58號就是可疑傳播那他還在海南區那通知又不走所以我們就第一時間就前推布置結果去那邊廣播請他離開"},{"start":280.558,"end":308.163,"text":"一把毛拉起來的時候就把它勾斷是現行犯逮捕的所以我們在預防跟偵辦部分是並重那最後就在跨部會在1月3號發生另外一起順興39號勾斷海底電的案例那1月6號海委會就召開相關部會相關部會來做跨部會協調都有共識那目前都已經落實在七法我們想以後有的司法工具我們會更明確更有效"},{"start":309.043,"end":333.613,"text":"我想我們會盡快把這個執法工具然後能夠讓我們海巡署能夠更有力的去針對這些故意犯或是有一些可能誤闖了或是這個誤失了這個所謂的一個電纜系統所以我覺得這個分野我們要很清楚可是你講的預防"},{"start":335.994,"end":353.011,"text":"起碼我們如果這個法我們開始跟大家說哪些是不行的而且哪個範圍是有我們相關的電纜系統所以這個部分這個海纜系統的部分要怎麼去告知這個線我們其實要先告知應該這個圖資都有了嗎"},{"start":355.755,"end":370.887,"text":"保委員在行政院歷次開會都討論過因為以後這罰則非常重也包括過失犯所以要認定就要很明確所以當初決議由主管機關內政部他彙整相關的圖資要公告"},{"start":371.627,"end":394.06,"text":"要公告所以这部分的话是可以当作佐证之一那当然个案施政不一而主我们比方说我们去现场搜证的话我们会起毛有没有勾断痕迹啊还有从雷达航机可以研判到航向那AIS有没有打开有没有接收到等等这部分我们都会那个并案给检察官来参考"},{"start":394.48,"end":422.222,"text":"那最重要跟委員報告在這個案子的話為什麼我們會以後會海面會透明化海巡署可以精準執法除了預防措施以外非常感謝交通部航空局的協助會修相關的規定比方說海船的區域化還有山關化還有船舶化要開AS不開的話會處很重的划船那另外最重要的最重要的就是說在很多都在我們周遭海域滯留"},{"start":423.163,"end":438.179,"text":"我們去趕海象部好很辛苦趕完之後又去而復返那以後這部分都列為禁止入港的船舶那沒有這些在外海滯留船舶就會減少勾斷海底的風險那這是源頭管理也是精準執法的一項"},{"start":438.86,"end":456.572,"text":"我覺得說我們一定要把整個資訊透明當我們要重罰的時候我們應該把資訊更清楚讓大家了解說我的圖資那我想問一下內政部那圖資的部分你們什麼時候可以正式來做公告"},{"start":459.745,"end":476.255,"text":"委員 其實特別說明一下 其實圖資的部分 我們歷年在海底電纜或管道在鋪設的時候就已經收集所有相關圖資都已經建置完畢當然分為兩個區塊 一個是提供這些船舶 船舶上面有ADIS系統 都會載我們國內發行的ENC圖資"},{"start":480.117,"end":502.559,"text":"但另外一個各部會借街的部分我們也提供給海口會 那海巡署那甚至是海港局去做借街未來再做船舶管控上海港都可以搜尋到是有一個圖資系統所以剛剛那個副署長有說嘛要做正式的一個公告嘛雖然過去我想我們可以搜尋到這些資料可是我們沒有因為既然海欄企劃我們是加重"},{"start":503.28,"end":523.386,"text":"好那加重之後我們就跟大家說哪裡是有我們的圖資的我們正式要去做公告我覺得這個動作一定要做雖然我們已經以前就有了可是很多人都會當成沒看到那我們就正式公告在哪一個地方有我們整個海底相關電纜的"},{"start":525.407,"end":536.806,"text":"所有管線的一個圖資那麼這個部分跟他們說明之後我們要去執法是不是那個內政部可以這樣做呢"},{"start":537.618,"end":559.831,"text":"特別跟委員說明一下其實海嵐或管道精確的路由去做公告這之前已經有討論過那其實我們當時有收集到像李安豐店廠商他們覺得如果政府機關要公告這些很精確的海嵐圖資那他們會有一些疑慮啦比如說會有特別有心人士會去做勾勞啦所以當時是有考慮過我們現在就說沒有啊我們現在已經加重罰則了就跟你說不行啦"},{"start":565.394,"end":590.596,"text":"你自己還要去跟人碰法 觸法那就是你的問題啊在之前我們海嵐棋法沒有訂的時候可能會有這樣的疑慮嘛因為他故意去做勾斷的動作我們也無法可管了但現在已經棋法已經做了甚至航管法跟商港法都要修了如果是這樣子的話我們如果沒有一個宣示性"},{"start":591.437,"end":608.162,"text":"我告訴你最後在檢調判刑的時候或是要去做實施之處分的時候都會有問題所以我覺得這個很重要雖然我們已經有了這個離岸風電的他會擔心可是我們已經跟你說不行了"},{"start":609.602,"end":636.935,"text":"你自己要責 那當然我們的法就要出動啦所以我覺得 既然我們已經從嚴了就不要考慮那麼多 以前是沒有法則 所以怕他去把你故意勾斷你也無法可管 也沒有辦法去做強制處分現在是可以了所以我覺得內政部這個公告未來減少在訴訟的爭議這個很重要 再麻煩大家 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時43分）請部長。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩代）：請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：召委好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們總共有海纜七法嘛！在經濟委員會是三法。第一個是電業法，它是要保護我們海底電力電纜，如果這一次有新增過失犯的罰則，還有可沒收犯罪工具、船舶，就能讓你們更有執行方向。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：以前是沒有的，所以不知道怎麼去處罰，他們也不會害怕，因為無法可管嘛！天然氣事業法要保護海底輸氣管線，新增過失犯的罰則，也是一樣可以沒收犯罪工具，還有船舶；然後自來水法是針對海底送水管線，也是新增過失犯罰則，還有可沒收犯罪工具及船舶。大概這一次是給你們有更可以執行的方向，而且沒有這些法令的話，你們去規勸，人家根本就不理你，即使抓到了也沒有用，因為沒有法，所以這就是為什麼我會這麼快去排海纜三法，因為非常重要。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們發現故意的、甚至一些有政治意圖的也越來越多，你無法去判斷他到底是因為經濟還是真的是政治，所以我覺得我們就是在法的位階來做到最好的保護。","現在其實還有另外四法，部長，另外四法當中牽扯的範圍滿大的，有數位部、交通部、國防部、法務部、國營事業、民營業者，還有海委會、經濟部，七法裡面相關的非常多，要怎麼做跨部會的協調平臺？因為我們是三法，其他四法分屬各部會，今天如果發生問題的時候，誰去做直接執法？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，真正在執行海上保護的基本上是海巡署在執行這樣的業務，我們法定了以後是讓海巡有一個工具。"],["陳委員亭妃：海巡署就可以依照這個法去處理嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們請海巡署副署長。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是移送檢調機關有一個法可以依循。"],["陳委員亭妃：由檢調機關依照這些法去做處置，可是其嚴重程度到底怎麼去判定？來，副署長。"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，海上執法機關是海委會海巡署，現在這個法規定之後，非常明確地明定違法要件，包括過失犯、包括涉案的船舶不問是否為犯罪人所有就得以沒收。另外還有加重刑責，最重要的是……"],["陳委員亭妃：發現就可以先扣，是不是？"],["謝副署長慶欽：就是有犯罪嫌疑的話，比方說疑似有外力勾斷，我們可以放航跡來研判，我們會報請檢察官。只要是外力扯斷電纜者，我們都視為國安案件，會報請檢察官指揮偵辦。原則上，如果海象許可及可以確定目標的話，我們都會把它帶案，現在案子帶案的話，航港局也都同意，因為是扣押，都會用公務安排船席，所以這是在偵辦部分。","第二個部分就是在預防，預防的話，主管機關中華電信還有一個告警系統，所有船舶船長是20公尺以上，航速低於5節，在海纜區左右1公里，換句話說，可能滯留或可能下錨的，它就會發AIS訊號要他離開，不過我們抓到的這艘宏泰58號，它是把AIS關掉。所以我們就是有這個系統，然後我們把可疑船舶96艘，這是由航港局提供給我們的資料，我們分高、中、低危險程度做不同的管控，像宏泰58號就是可疑船舶，它還在海纜區，通知又不走，所以我們第一時間就前推布置，結果去到那邊廣播請它離開，他把錨拉起來的時候就把它勾斷，是現行犯逮捕的，所以我們在預防跟偵辦的部分是並重。","最後就是跨部會，1月3號發生另外一起順興39號勾斷海底電纜案例，1月6號海委會就召集相關部會來做跨部會協調，都有共識，目前都已經在落實七法，以後有這些執法工具，我們會更明確、更有效。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們會儘快把這個執法工具能夠讓海巡署更有力地去針對這些故意犯，或是有一些可能誤闖或是因過失毀壞電纜系統，所以我覺得這個分野我們要很清楚，可是你講的預防，起碼如果有這個法開始跟大家說哪些是不行的，而且哪個範圍是有我們相關的電纜系統，所以這個海纜系統的部分要怎麼去告知？這個其實要先告知，相關圖資應該都有了嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，在行政院歷次開會也都討論過，因為以後這個罰則非常重，也包括過失犯，所以認定就要很明確，當初決議由主管機關內政部彙整相關的圖資要公告，這部分的話是可以當作佐證之一。當然個案事證不一而足，比方說，我們去現場蒐證的話，我們會起錨看有沒有勾斷痕跡，還有從雷達航跡可以研判到航向、AIS有沒有打開、有沒有接收到等等，這些部分我們都會併案給檢察官來參考。最重要跟委員報告，在這個案子的話，為什麼我們以後海面會透明化、海巡署可以精準執法？除了預防措施以外，非常感謝交通部航港局的協助，會修相關的規定，比方說海纜七法還有商港法、船舶法，要開AIS，不開的話會處很重的罰鍰。另外最重要的就是，很多都在我們周遭海域滯留，我們去趕，海象不好很辛苦，趕完之後又驅而復返，以後這部分都列為禁止入港的船舶，沒有這些在外海滯留的船舶，就會減少勾斷海纜的風險，這也是源頭管理，也是精準執法的一項。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得我們一定要把整個資訊透明，當我們要重罰的時候，應該把資訊更清楚讓大家了解圖資。我想問一下內政部，圖資的部分，你們什麼時候可以正式公告？"],["張簡任視察則民：委員，特別說明一下，其實圖資的部分，我們歷年在海底電纜或管道鋪設的時候就已經蒐集所有相關圖資，都已經建置完畢，分為兩個區塊，一個是提供這些船舶，船舶上面有ECDIS系統，都會載我們國內發行的ENC圖資；另外一個，各部會介接的部分，我們也提供給海委會、海巡署，甚至航港局去做介接，未來在船舶管控上來講，都可以搜尋到既有的圖資系統。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以剛剛副署長有說要做正式的一個公告，雖然過去我們可以搜尋到這些資料，可是我們沒有，既然海纜七法是加重，加重之後，我們就跟大家說哪裡是有圖資的，我們正式要去做公告，我覺得這個動作一定要做，雖然我們以前就有了，可是很多人都會當成沒看到，那我們就正式公告，在哪一個地方有整個海底相關電纜的所有管線圖資，這個部分跟他們說明之後，我們要去執法才不會有爭議。是不是內政部可以這樣做呢？"],["張簡任視察則民：特別跟委員說明一下，其實海纜或管道的精確路線有公告，這之前也已經有討論過。"],["陳委員亭妃：對。"],["張簡任視察則民：其實我們當時有蒐集到，但離岸風電廠商覺得如果政府機關要公告這些很精確的海纜圖資，他們會有一些疑慮，比如有心人士會特別去勾撈，所以當時有考慮過。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！我們現在已經加重罰則了，就跟他說不行了，若他自己還要去碰法、觸法，那就是他的問題啊！在之前海纜七法沒有修正的時候，可能會有這樣的疑慮，因為他故意去做勾斷的動作，我們也無法可管，但現在七法已經做了，甚至船舶法跟商港法都要修了。如果是這樣子的話，我們假如沒有一個宣示性的作為，我告訴你，最後在檢調、判刑的時候或是要去做實質處分的時候都會有問題，所以我覺得這個很重要。雖然我們已經有了，但離岸風電的會擔心，可是我們已經跟他說不行了，他自己要做，當然我們的法就要出動了。我覺得既然我們已經從嚴了，就不要考慮那麼多，以前是沒有罰則，所以他們不會怕啊！他去故意勾斷，你也無法可管，也沒有辦法去做強制處分，現在可以了，所以我覺得內政部這個公告未來可以減少訴訟的爭議，這個很重要，再麻煩大家，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃）：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da519eca83704e08eaedb08d4a2736e01e2b1e9be59762a4979e472786d5621fa9625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:27:05 - 09:43:25","影片長度":"00:16:20","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai 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12月1號有一些2025 1月4號包括今年的1月12號1月4號到1月12號6天而已國際的這樣的IEA的利用衛星數據就可以偵測的到"},{"start":130.282,"end":148.417,"text":"而國內現有就是以物聯網偵測的系統卻未能同步偵測到異常這代表我國的天然氣安全的體系是有盲區的我點出來你們這個的缺失你們現在都是物聯網啊然後但是卻未能同步偵測到異常"},{"start":150.118,"end":167.083,"text":"所以人家是從去年年底到今年年初連這三次都有這樣的報告所以這個忙具要請部長跟國運司你們要去注意因為LNG天然氣的安全人員的安全是人員屬你在主管"},{"start":168.283,"end":187.713,"text":"好那所以呢天然氣的洩漏不應該是單次意外應該建立了長期制度性的監測所以本席要求應該要建立燃氣安全監管方案為了顧及環境保護及國人生命財產安全要求人員署因為是天然氣的主管機關"},{"start":188.613,"end":207.152,"text":"整合中油而中油是目前國內唯一進口天然氣的但是進來之後你會給民間譬如說新雄瓦斯啦所謂新自備的全國的瓦斯民生在用啊但是台電也會用到天然氣的發電都已經進到這個發電佔比都50%了都還會再更提高"},{"start":212.117,"end":237.49,"text":"所以即刻起規劃科技化衛星天然氣的監管方案以強化監管的這個以強化這個監管我要求一個月內你提出建制時程的規劃安全不能靠口號也不能再等下一次的爆炸或洩漏才要再來做檢討好這個是不是先回應一下部長國營司人員署來是"},{"start":240.081,"end":252.837,"text":"謝委員的這個的建議啦這個就是新的方法只要有新的方法好的方法那我們來研理看看那一個月以後會給委員一個報告嘛就是看看包括這個衛星數據他發為什麼對這個議題"},{"start":255.18,"end":279.771,"text":"我們高雄人非常有感2014年的這個凱旋路的氣爆案那也是這個油管的一個氣爆其實到現在為止如果我能夠用衛星它的範圍是更大的那所以這個部分要也謝謝部長您這麼明快的一個才事好我們來看國營事業的績效不應該犧牲基層"},{"start":281.512,"end":306.527,"text":"這左邊這個報告是你們經濟部在113年國營市所提出來的未來國營事業未來10年的人力的嚴重斷層這這個表所呈現的是什麼國營事業員工的平均年齡是46歲中油是平均的年齡是47.8台電是46.3人力高齡化再加上外包比例過高"},{"start":307.748,"end":323.651,"text":"所以導致什麼技術傳承有斷層安全操作當然就會出現缺口我永安林園兩大廠近五年內發生多起都是誰外包維修期間的異常事件"},{"start":324.712,"end":353.812,"text":"險之風安全風險跟能力短缺這兩個雙重問題所帶來的這個公安事件所以國營師應該要思考國營事業真才是有別於公務人員的公職人員這很吊詭我們的禁用是比照公務人員但是當公務人員現在要這個調薪的時候我們國營事業這要我替國營事業所有的員工講個話他一定是比公務人員慢"},{"start":354.552,"end":374.118,"text":"幅度也會比國營人員低那因為調薪又沒有一個機制每次都要在立法院不分藍綠的在這個預算會期當中的隔年要大力疾呼你看今年什麼時候才核定這個年終獎金的績效 去年就在喊喊到現在四五月才核定"},{"start":374.978,"end":401.288,"text":"公務人員早就年初1月1號就開始執行甚至你公布的時候還可以追溯所以你說你要徵才國營事業的禁用比照公務人員 不好意思他的績效又要比照企業所以你民間企業在徵才你一定要維持企業的競爭力必須提高誘因 這幾個誘因福利 薪資 勞動環境還要加上科技化的應用"},{"start":402.068,"end":415.784,"text":"本身我們的相關的智慧化的決策智慧化的一個這個經營管理這都應該要納入這也是誘因啊才能吸引我們國際社會才能吸引優秀人才來提升企業的競爭力"},{"start":417.145,"end":432.558,"text":"好所以我具體要求優化國營事業能力結構與勞動條件第一個經濟部應建立國營事業職災通報與追蹤系統所有的爆炸洩漏墜落事件及時揭露我講的是經濟部部"},{"start":433.058,"end":449.006,"text":"本部現在是各國營事業自己有自己跟地方的回報跟縣市政府的回報那這是每個國營事業都有建立起這個機制沒有各區自己經營好像中油我其實就是要額露一下中油在地方上"},{"start":450.006,"end":464.614,"text":"也記取這些公安事件所以其實董事長這邊我要給你鼓勵一下給你拍手一下你對於只要任何的公安事件其實都會及時的跟我們地方的這些意見領袖做通報至少我本席也有收到"},{"start":465.635,"end":494.995,"text":"那但是台電那就要加把勁了好在我相信總經理董事長你們也非常非常辛苦這實在是我實在也民眾的安全包括我們人員的政策的執行其實台電是真的很辛苦但是我還是得要求所以像這個的這個部分但是我要講跟部長知道你這些的追蹤系統都是各工廠自己跟各地方自己不同我覺得應該不管不同一"},{"start":496.015,"end":518.083,"text":"你自己要掌握啊要不然公安事件你們通通都是在背後收尾啊然後大家都急救張啊好所以這個我覺得要求部本部自己本身要有國營事業實在通報及追蹤系統的及時揭露那第二個請國營是一個月內會同國營事業跟公會討論兩件事情第一個強化國營事業的競爭力研討國營事業"},{"start":520.324,"end":544.3,"text":"職工福利與公職人員薪酬條件脫鉤方案你禁用跟福利都比照公務人員啊那不對啊那但是你的企業公務人員不用要求企業的這種的績效你卻要求他績效啊那你相關的這個他們站在第一線國營事業除了台堂之外其實都是高危險的工作"},{"start":545.16,"end":568.762,"text":"你包括連台電要出海那個離岸風電他們也要工作船那也屬於危險不是只有在陸地上在山區電線港爬那中油更不在話下了每一個他就在都是在高危險的石化廠區內所以這個他的薪資他的職工福利一定要脫鉤公務人員的薪酬這個我要求那請國營市這邊也當然請部長你才是"},{"start":571.724,"end":591.769,"text":"這以及針對特定第一線工作人員因提撥職災意外津貼的補貼這說起來很好玩喔這個工會啊的會員的錢都是會員自己繳他們針對就終有我了解其實工會都有提供他們另外在勞健保之外還有一個職災的一個補貼"},{"start":594.403,"end":613.288,"text":"中油本公司有沒有 沒有台電本公司有沒有 沒有台水有沒有他們也都是在地底下在專刊啊等等啊 沒有欸所以我這邊要求部本部這邊尤其國營司主導在一個月內會同國營司公會要針對這兩項也要來做一個這個討論"},{"start":617.229,"end":643.977,"text":"這就是你的勞工條件啊這就是你的這個福利條件啊甚至你的這個為了增加國營事業的競爭力你的科技化的部分你需要工會怎麼的替你做宣導跟人員訓練啊這在在都是對於你國營事業到底是不是全台人員命脈你有沒有重視國營事業他是全全台的人員命脈這件事情的重要性好所以最後結語"},{"start":645.727,"end":660.276,"text":"國營事業的改革回到三個安全是底線員工是根本地方是責任所以國營事業不能只是賺錢的公司更是國家的延伸我要求經濟部自己提案修改國營事業管理法第13條讓"},{"start":661.357,"end":666.241,"text":"KPI不只是盈餘而是國營事業管理法第3條要納入KPI要納入安全勞工跟地方貢獻唯有這樣國營事業才不只是國家資產更是人民信任的力量好在這邊我漏了一下"},{"start":678.03,"end":702.869,"text":"就是說在國營事業是根本效益要回到地方所以呢像我高雄擁有永安LNG的接收站大林電廠、興達電廠、林園石化基地是全台人員的命脈地方回饋不能只有回饋金我要強調這一點你們不能只有回饋金還要建置制度性的合作帶動地方發展讓國營企業不再是嫌惡設施將"},{"start":704.71,"end":726.809,"text":"具體要求將地方回饋納入公司治理的ESG報告三項第一個國營事業董事會的營運目標中因名列在地採購金額第二個地方稅收的貢獻第三合作學校的訓練人數尤其合作學校的訓練人數我非常感謝中油跟台電這要讓部長知道"},{"start":727.489,"end":751.756,"text":"在高雄市的所有的產學合作中油的在林園廠的產學專班我非常感謝中油是把他真的明確的納入他人才培養的基地這我非常的感謝包括在小港我的這個中油也是有這個中油的這個產學專班也是一樣再來台電我也是非常的感謝你們那個幾乎辦的績效都非常的好"},{"start":753.177,"end":769.699,"text":"學徒制的建制有在高中階段的納入地方稅收的貢獻合作學校的訓練應該納入公司治理的ESG報告第二個經濟部每年發布這是我要求的國營事業在地效益白皮書"},{"start":770.76,"end":786.558,"text":"一切都公開 接入高雄的採購金額投資項目跟就業創造你在在地啊 我不要說你是有回饋啊制度性的合作來帶動地方發展你地方採購就要採購我高雄有人你就跟我高雄來做採購"},{"start":787.819,"end":815.725,"text":"投資項目我們有的 你投資了多少我高雄的公共建設 跟我市政府合作就業創造 本來就是應該如此啊所有的第三個要求 重大建設 如七街忍忍的再利用園區同步建立地方監測委員會 保障資訊公開 社會參與這種所謂重大 你說你要把它當作壁嶺 你反而會被攻擊你把它當作公共建設地方參與 你就會一起成長"},{"start":816.885,"end":841.918,"text":"好在這邊我不知道部長您就回答一下吧針對在人員這個國營失趕快的我對於人才人力結構跟勞動結構的部分第七頁這邊您回應一下好謝謝事實上我們現在執行的方向也跟委員的提醒是大致上一樣那尤其薪水的部分我們也有一些彈性像這一次公務員調薪3%但是我們"},{"start":843.218,"end":869.848,"text":"國營事業是調了3.5%因為最近這些國營事業的同仁也真是非常辛苦那就像剛剛提到的我們新進人員可能要有一些機制我們慢慢來調整這個方向是這樣部長我講的就是你現在能夠上升到部本部而且要制度化部本部對於國營事業對於質災的部分的通報系統的即時揭露部本部喔當然國營是你一個月內對於國營事業跟工會要跟工會討論"},{"start":871.529,"end":887.569,"text":"你的這個福利 職工福利跟公職人的薪資要脫鉤你也當然 但是我強調是跟國營事業跟工會一起討論把它制度建立起來 好嗎我們是不是把這些制度的建立我們是不是一個月內"},{"start":888.65,"end":906.492,"text":"一個月內把這個所有相關的資料報給我們經紀委員會然後給我們委員辦公室知道那請主席您是不是能夠接續採視一下我這邊眷對地方回饋的部分納入公司治理的ESG的報告有這三項也請他是不是能夠做研議呢"},{"start":907.373,"end":925.594,"text":"一併喔在這個報告裡面一個月夠嗎這一個要將地方回饋納入公司治理的ESG報告包括在地採購地方稅收貢獻合作學校的訓練人數還有國營事業在地效益的白皮書還有重大限設地方監測的委員會"},{"start":926.835,"end":954.418,"text":"再麻煩那個戴華你把這些一份資料給他們他們要做的相關相關分析相關資料給他們這樣才不會有漏掉的好謝謝主席然後最後請主席是不是也採視一下這個就真的經濟部提案你研議提案剛國營事業管理法的第13條裡面修正讓你的KPI要包含安全勞動地方貢獻及至正式的法治化之後就不用在那邊爭了"},{"start":955.539,"end":979.914,"text":"我们是不是一并在这一个月内检讨出来说是不是有这个必要要把我们国营事业管理法的第13条来做修正然后让他的KPI不只是盈余而可以有包含到安全劳动地方贡献这些部分我们一并在一个月把它提出我们的报告那该修法的我们再来修好不好谢谢感谢主席谢谢谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時27分）有請部長跟國營司。"],["主席：請部長跟國營司。"],["林委員岱樺：能源署也請上來。"],["龔部長明鑫：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：國營事業不只要賺錢，更要顧安全、顧員工、顧地方，今天本席針對國營事業的改革，要來跟部長和國營司來做個討論。我們國營事業的改革不應該只有盈餘跟報表，中油、台電、台水、台糖這些國營事業是國家最重要的能源跟民生支柱，最近因為能源價格的波動、通膨的壓力、淨零轉型的挑戰，這些國營事業被要求提高營收、降低成本，但是忽略了三件事情：安全、勞動、地方責任。營收數字可以美化，我不說造假，安全事故卻不能說謊，國營事業如果只看盈餘，忽視了安全跟人力，最終損失的會是民眾的信任跟國家的根本。","話說天然氣的洩漏，本席認為，這不應該把永安這個地方當作單次的意外，應該建立起長期制度性的監測。根據IEA這個國際組織在去年針對LNG甲烷外洩的國際報告，跟國內學者來比對衛星數據，這個數據很有趣，從去年年底到今年年初，臺灣的發電廠數次被國際衛星偵測到天然氣逸散的情況，我這邊都羅列出來了：2024年12月1號有逸洩，還有2025年1月4號到1月12號6天。IEA利用衛星就可以偵測得到，而國內現在是用物聯網偵測系統，卻未能同步偵測到異常，這代表我國的天然氣安全體系是有盲區的。我點出來你們的缺失，現在都是物聯網，但是卻未能同步偵測到異常，人家是從去年年底到今年年初，連著三次都有這樣的報告，這個盲區請部長跟國營司要去注意，因為LNG天然氣的安全、能源安全是能源署在主管。","天然氣的洩漏不應該是單次意外，應該建立長期制度性的監測，因此本席要求應該要建立燃氣安全監管方案，為了顧及環境保護及國人生命財產的安全，要求天然氣主管機關能源署整合中油，而中油是目前國內唯一進口天然氣的公司，但是進來之後會給民間譬如欣雄瓦斯等欣字輩全國的瓦斯，因為民生在用，但是台電也會用到天然氣的發電，發電占比都已經50%了，還可能更高。所以即刻起規劃科技化衛星天然氣的監管方案，以強化監管，我要求一個月內提出建置時程的規劃。安全不能靠口號，也不能再等下一次的爆炸或洩漏才要來檢討，關於這個是不是先回應一下？請部長、國營司、能源署。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝委員的建議，這個是新的方法。"],["林委員岱樺：是的。"],["龔部長明鑫：只要有新的方法、好的方法，我們來研擬看看，那一個月以後會給委員一個報告，就是看看適不適合做或怎麼做。"],["林委員岱樺：好，為什麼我們高雄人對衛星數據這個議題非常有感？因為2014年發生的凱旋路氣爆案也是油管的氣爆，其實到現在為止，如果能夠用衛星，它的範圍是更大的，這個部分也謝謝部長這麼明快的裁示。我們來看「國營事業的績效不應犧牲基層」，左邊這個報告是你們經濟部國營司在113年所提出來的，國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層，這個表所呈現的是什麼？國營事業員工平均年齡是46歲，中油的平均年齡是47.8，台電是46.3。人力高齡化加上外包比例過高，導致技術傳承有斷層，安全操作當然就會出現缺口。永安、林園兩大廠近5年內發生多起外包維修期間的異常事件，顯是「安全風險」與「人力短缺」這兩個雙重問題所帶來的工安事件。","國營司應思考國營事業徵才有別於公職人員，這很弔詭，進用是比照公務人員，但當公務人員現在要調薪的時候，我們要替國營事業所有的員工講話，他們一定是比公務人員慢，幅度也會比國營人員低。調薪又沒有一個機制，每次都要在立法院不分藍綠地於預算會期的隔年、要大力疾呼，你看今年什麼時候才核定年終獎金、績效部分？去年就在喊啊！喊到現在4、5月才核定。公務人員年初於1月1號早就開始執行了，甚至公布的時候還可以追溯。所以你說要徵才、國營事業的進用比照公務人員，不好意思！他的績效又要比照企業，所以要像民間企業徵才一樣，一定要維持企業競爭力，必須提高誘因，這幾個誘因──福利、薪資、勞動環境，還要加上科技化應用，我們本身相關的智慧化決策、智慧化的經營管理都應該納入，這也是誘因，國營事業才能吸引優秀人才，來提升企業的競爭力。","所以我具體要求：優化國營事業人力結構與勞動條件。第一個，經濟部應建立「國營事業職災通報與追蹤系統」，所有爆炸、洩漏、墜落事件即時揭露。我講的是經濟部本部，現在是各國營事業有自己跟地方的回報、跟縣市政府的回報，那是不是每個國營事業都有建立起這個機制？沒有，各區自己經營。像中油，我其實就是要誇它一下，中油在地方上也記取這些工安事件的教訓，所以我要給董事長鼓勵一下，給你拍手一下，你對於任何工安事件其實都會即時跟我們地方的意見領袖通報，至少本席也有收到。但是台電就要加把勁了，我相信總經理、董事長你們也非常非常辛苦，我實在也……民眾安全，包括能源政策的執行，其實台電是真的很辛苦，但我還是得要求，像這個部分。但是我要講，讓部長知道，你這些追蹤系統，都是各工廠自己跟各地方……自己不統……我覺得應該部本部統一，你自己要掌握啊！要不然工安事件，你們通通都是在背後收尾，然後大家都急就章。所以這個我要求，部本部自己本身要有「國營事業職災通報與追蹤系統」即時揭露。","第二個，請國營司一個月內會同國營事業及工會討論兩件事情，首先，強化國營事業競爭力，研討國營事業職工福利與公職人員薪酬條件脫鉤的方案。你進用跟福利都比照公務人員，那不對啊！公務人員不用要求企業的這種績效，你卻要要求他績效啊！他們站在第一線，國營事業除了台糖之外，其實都是高危險的工作，包括連台電要出海，那個離岸風電，他們也要有工作船，那也屬於危險的，不是只有在陸地上，在山區電線桿爬耶！而中油更不在話下了，每一個都是在高危險的石化廠區。所以他的薪資、職工福利一定要與公務人員的薪酬脫鉤，這個我要求，請國營司這邊，當然也請部長裁示。","其次，針對特定第一線工作人員應提撥職災意外津貼補助。這說起來很好玩，工會的錢都是會員自己繳，就中油，我的了解是，其實工會都有提供他們在勞健保之外，另外還有職災的補貼，中油本公司有沒有？沒有。台電本公司有沒有？沒有。台水有沒有？他們也都是在地底下、在鑽勘等等，沒有耶！所以我要求部本部這邊，請國營司主導，在一個月內會同國營事業之工會，針對這兩項也要討論，這就是你勞工的條件、這就是你的福利條件。甚至為了增加國營事業的競爭力，你的科技化部分、需要工會怎麼替你宣導跟人員訓練，這在在都牽涉國營事業到底是不是全臺能源命脈、你有沒有重視國營事業是全臺能源命脈這件事情的重要性。","最後的結語：國營事業的改革，應回到三個原點，安全是底線、員工是根本、地方是責任。國營事業不能只是賺錢的公司，更是國家的延伸。我要求經濟部自己提案修改國營事業管理法第十三條，讓KPI不只針對盈餘，還要納入安全、勞工、地方貢獻，唯有這樣，國營事業才不只是國家資產，更是人民信任的力量。","在這邊我漏了一項，就是國營事業是根本……效益要回到地方，像我高雄擁有永安LNG接收站，大林電廠、興達電廠、林園石化基地，是全臺能源的命脈。地方回饋不能只有回饋金，我要強調這一點，你們不能只有回饋金，還要建置制度性的合作，帶動地方發展，讓國營企業不再是嫌惡設施。我具體要求：將地方回饋納入公司治理ESG報告，有三項：第一個，國營事業董事會的營運目標中，應明列在地採購金額、地方稅收貢獻及合作學校訓練人數。尤其合作學校的訓練人數，我非常感謝中油跟台電，這要讓部長知道，在高雄市所有的產學合作，中油在林園廠的產學專班，我非常感謝中油真的明確把它納入人才培養的基地，這個我非常感謝，包括在小港有中油的產學專班，也是一樣。再來是台電，我也非常感謝，你們辦的績效幾乎都非常好，學徒制的建置有在高中階段納入。地方稅收的貢獻、合作學校訓練都應該納入公司治理ESG報告。","第二個，這是我要求的，經濟部每年發布「國營事業在地效益白皮書」，一切都公開，揭露在高雄的採購金額、投資項目與就業創造。在地部分，不要說你只有回饋，制度性的合作帶動地方發展，你在地方採購，我高雄有的你就跟我高雄採購；投資項目，就我們有的，你投資了多少我高雄的公共建設、跟我市政府合作；就業創造方面，本來就應該如此。","第三個要求，所有重大建設案（如七接、冷能再利用園區）須同步建立地方監測委員會，保障資訊公開與社區參與。所謂重大，你要把它當作鄰避的，你反而會被攻擊；你把它當作公共建設、地方參與，你就會一起成長。","在這邊我不知道部長……您就回答一下吧！針對國營司，趕快地、我對於人才……"],["主席：請簡單回答。"],["林委員岱樺：人力結構與勞動結構的部分、第7頁這邊，您回應一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝，事實上我們現在執行的方向也跟委員的提醒大致上一樣。尤其薪水的部分我們也有一些彈性，像這一次公務員調薪3%，但我們國營事業調了3.5%，因為最近這些國營事業的同仁真的是非常辛苦。就像剛剛提到的，新進人員可能要有一些機制，我們慢慢來調整，方向是這樣。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我講的就是現在要上升到部本部，而且要制度化。部本部職災通報系統的即時揭露，部本部喔！國營司一個月內對於國營事業跟工會，要跟工會討論，你的職工福利與公職人薪資要脫鉤。你剛剛也講了，但是我強調的是，跟國營事業、跟工會一起討論，把制度建立起來，好嗎？"],["主席：這些制度的建立你們是不是在一個月內把所有相關的資料報給經濟委員會，然後給我們委員辦公室知道？謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：請主席是不是能夠接續裁示一下，我這邊針對地方回饋的部分納入公司治理的ESG報告有這三項，也請他是不是能夠做研議呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：一併在這個報告裡面……"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["主席：一個月夠嗎？要將地方回饋納入公司治理的ESG報告。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，一併。"],["主席：可以喔！那就一個月把這兩份報告……好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：包括在地採購、地方稅收貢獻、合作學校的訓練人數，還有國營事業在地效益的白皮書，還有重大建設、地方監測委員會。"],["主席：再麻煩岱樺把這些資料給他們，他們要做的相關分析、相關資料請給他們，這樣才不會有漏掉的部分。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝主席。最後請主席是不是也裁示一下？請經濟部研議提案修正國營事業管理法第十三條，讓你的KPI要包含安全、勞動、地方貢獻機制，正式的法制化之後就不用在那邊爭了，好不好？"],["主席：你們一併在一個月內檢討是不是有必要修正國營事業管理法第十三條。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["主席：然後讓它的KPI不只是盈餘，還可以包含到安全、勞動、地方貢獻等這些部分，你們一併在一個月提出報告，該修法的我們再來修，好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝，感謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請陳亭妃委員質詢。拜託議瑩，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da517bda0266d9574f5614a9ab9b55a87a241e9be59762a4979ea9dba0c141707bd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:02:38 - 13:16:50","影片長度":"00:14:12","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T13:02:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T13:16:50+08:00","duration":852,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.649718750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.234718750000003,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.53846875,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.58909375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.99409375,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.398468750000003,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.86221875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.54971875,"end":31.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.85721875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.73409375,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.27721875,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.92346875,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.66846875,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.68534375,"end":87.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.44346875000001,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.47721875,"end":87.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.91596875,"end":92.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.73846875000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.23159375,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.36221875000001,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.47596875,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.50971875,"end":95.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.52659375,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.69534375,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.26659375000001,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.24909375,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.97034375000001,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.07534375,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.66596875,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":126.99846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.30221875000001,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.73659375,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.77409375000002,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.37721875,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.10659375,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.36784375000002,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.34659375,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.91971875000002,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.60221875000002,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.69471875000002,"end":155.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.98971875,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.97159375,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.02159375000002,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.79659375,"end":208.08284375000002}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謝謝主席那先請陳部長先請農業部陳部長"},{"start":20.367,"end":36.765,"text":"陳部長那在10月26號記者會你本來說第二天就可以提出完整的補助方案那後來又說要改要一週所以是不是確定下週一可以提出完整的補助方案"},{"start":37.245,"end":53.94,"text":"我想我跟委員說明就是當初我記得沒有錯的話當初在這個方案裡面只針對一個小環節那我們後來考慮到就是整個豬產業不是只有特定的一個環節受到影響所以我才會請我們的同事"},{"start":54.58,"end":77.389,"text":"要把整個租的一級的產業鏈都把它評估出來那這樣的話我們在這個疫情期間受影響的這些從業人員我們才能夠讓他們有一些比較安心所以在這個禮拜六最慢這個禮拜六之前我們就會完整的方案做公佈因為整個方案的公佈還要經過行政院先同意嘛因為需要一些經費"},{"start":78.689,"end":92.372,"text":"好 那而且昨天總質詢的時候本席有問到就是有請我們部長幫忙針對豬農短期飼料補助那部長好像也說這部分我想我們有納入我們的方案裡面"},{"start":93.311,"end":112.186,"text":"有纳入我们的方案里面有纳入嘛所以也希望因为这次非洲猪瘟也来得很快那台湾这次碰到这样也对猪农有很大的影响我们希望这补助公布的速度也要快然后尽量补助能够全面来减少猪农这么大的损失"},{"start":112.686,"end":129.995,"text":"我剛才說了我們就是在租產業鏈的一級生產鏈我們都會來協助處理所以盡量層面做大嘛減少他們的損失那還有我們非洲豬瘟爆發到現在那我們10月27號"},{"start":131.823,"end":155.2,"text":"我們有開了應變中心有開第39次的會議對不對因為應變中心我們每天開會議我們每天開10月27要開第39次嘛對不對我可能要確認一下好沒關係那後來網路上因為現在還沒有公佈說他非洲豬瘟的原因現在原因還沒有找到對不對"},{"start":156.181,"end":182.678,"text":"我想我們因為照整個案例場的一個權責是由台中市政府要進行疫調那台中市政府在疫調的過程中有一些必須釐清的所以還會不斷地去調查那美伊士的中央應變中心因為中央應變中心除了台中市以外是全台灣各縣市的所有的農業行政的首長或代表會參加那他們也在一直在關心整個案情的發展"},{"start":183.038,"end":210.208,"text":"所以我們會把相關的這些工作會跟我們的工作會議裡面去會討論跟處理我們也希望這個原因趕快找出來不然其實現在網路上因為民眾很恐慌那網路上也議論紛紛一下說越南配偶也有說陸配也有人說什麼為了萊豬的進口那所以我們要找出這原因現在多久可以完成基因序列的定序"},{"start":212.041,"end":240.628,"text":"這個檢測什麼時候可以完成禮拜五禮拜五可以完成不過我要先跟委員報告基因定序完你也不能說這個是中國來的這個是越南來的這個沒有辦法他定序完只是說跟哪一國的株枝基因序列相似這個有他的複雜性因為你要做比對的時候一定要那個國家把他的基因序列上網我們才能夠比對可是很可惜的中國的所有的基因序列他都不上網"},{"start":242.473,"end":257.225,"text":"所以沒有辦法核對所以我們只知道這個基因的序列那可能這個基因裡面可能是不是有一些有一些重組或其他的部分對這個了解所以就算定序之後也沒有辦法證明是哪一個國家沒有辦法證明 這沒辦法證明"},{"start":258.165,"end":287.045,"text":"那到時候這個原因可能還是不容易找到真的 因為肥肉豬瘟有可能是除於有可能是人的接觸有沒有到國外的案場有沒有發病的這些場 畜牧場然後從這個衣服或是什麼東西攜帶進來的都有可能啦所以我們必須要用排除的方式也好或用確認的方式也好去釐清對 因為我們也是希望這個發生的原因盡量找到以後才有辦法去遏止"},{"start":288.025,"end":304.48,"text":"對 我們現在的疫調其實還有一個重點除了趕快找到可能的來源以外更重要就是說在這個疫調過程中可以了解我們整個防疫系統裡面哪一些還可以去做精進的這個才是一個重點好 那我們現在染疫死亡的株質處理方式"},{"start":306.323,"end":334.486,"text":"染疫就是一條染疫就是那一頭那其他的都是必死豬就是因為豬是在飼養過程中他可能因為管理不當或者可能其他的疾病那這些疾病都不是法定的傳染病的部分那一般來講是可以送到化製廠或者是焚燒也可以或者是掩埋有它的三種模式然後根據它當地的本身的條件而決定但是我要再強調它不是非洲豬瘟的"},{"start":335.647,"end":363.722,"text":"並 必死豬 因為非洲豬瘟的必死豬只有一條就是我們現在發現的齁 就是檢測那其他的不是其他的現在我們在疫調的過程中齁發現的齁 那都是必死豬 就是說不是感染而引起的死亡的蜘蛛但是我們去抽檢都是陰性它都不是非洲豬瘟所以目前查到有非洲豬瘟死亡的只有一頭就是檢測的只有一條那其他的那個場 其他的還沒有檢測出來對 那個場全部撲殺嘛"},{"start":365.622,"end":383.534,"text":"全部撲殺所以其他的場域我們檢測出來的有沒有我們在公布的時候檢測出來的都是一般的正常的有疾病的死亡但是不是非洲豬瘟染病而死亡的所以那個場的全部撲殺之後最後是掩埋是不是對 那個是因為緊急撲殺而掩埋"},{"start":384.995,"end":411.961,"text":"那掩埋的地點應該 後來應該都有管理吧沒有 這個掩埋地點就是其實在平常的規劃裡面就已經確認在那個地點了因為非洲豬屋我們有一個團隊中央應變中心一直持續在溫泉從108年開始 我們沒有間斷每年都開三到四次會所以在那個時候就有預定了萬一有問題發生的時候在哪邊掩埋 掩埋怎麼掩埋的所有的程序都是按照那個方式來做"},{"start":412.761,"end":426.031,"text":"對 所以也管理好不會有以後再擴散的問題對 所以現在是鎖定在這個案場啊沒有其他外擴的跡象我們只能這樣講好 所以都是對掩埋場都有管理嘛是好 那"},{"start":426.977,"end":450.268,"text":"我們記得我們在2018年農業部好像就超前部署針對各種非洲豬瘟防疫管理措施好像就已經有超前部署所以到現在應該算一算也有七年了吧對那我們這七年到底做了什麼怎麼感覺非洲豬瘟一來好像大家很多事情還沒有準備好"},{"start":451.148,"end":476.166,"text":"我跟各位報告 跟委員報告就是我們在107年成立中央應變中心的時候我們就沒有說結束就一直持續著那在這個過程中其實因為台灣是沒有非洲豬瘟的疫區非洲豬瘟疫區所以都沒有非洲豬瘟的前提之下我們的重點是在邊境的防治 防疫就是將病毒阻絕於境外那這個部分"},{"start":476.846,"end":496.619,"text":"特別是針對我們的手提行李人員旅客的這些後送行李郵包郵件還有走私的茶器所以一直在強調這個所以我們在歷次的成果對外宣布的時候就是我們的確也檢測到一些高風險疫區來的這些肉製品是含有非肉質溫的病毒"},{"start":497.379,"end":514.205,"text":"所以我們是重點是在防疫就是阻絕於境外那這次是第一次我們發現到這個案例那這個案例本身其實我們有演練包括您剛才講的遇到了以後在哪邊哪邊去掩埋有沒有怎麼掩埋方法其實我們都有演練"},{"start":515.285,"end":537.762,"text":"對 所以我希望說 居然從2018年我們就有再開始來做超前部署所以針對這些發生以後 這些後續這些問題包含廚餘啊 還有這些豬隻掩埋然後民眾該怎麼去應對 應該要有一個指引不然民眾會造成相當的恐慌我想我們這個指引其實都有 現在"},{"start":538.743,"end":563.269,"text":"比較看到比較一些比較弱的地方就是疫調的部分那其他的針對關聯廠的調查有沒有去採樣去檢測包括全國的我相信現在目前做的他們現在做的是還符合他們規定所以我也希望農業部在這一方面盡量多宣傳讓民眾去了解有些不必要的恐慌避免民眾因為不了解造成恐慌"},{"start":563.849,"end":586.409,"text":"那所以有一些指引民眾該怎麼去面對 怎麼去處理怎麼面對 還是說怎麼去觀察的外觀等等應該要教育一下我們的民眾對 我想分兩個層次一個層次是消費者 一個層次是豬農啦那消費者就是放心的吃豬肉很多人 現在很多影片說現在可能這個豬肉吃了會怎樣我覺得這個是錯假訊息 我們一直在處理"},{"start":587.229,"end":596.621,"text":"對 所以這個就是該教育的對 那個另外一個部分是豬籠的部分那豬籠的部分本身的這些可能疑似案例跟那個胸腺肺炎 是不是"},{"start":598.119,"end":616.582,"text":"圖卡的部分我們都有給豬農去做這些判試加強他們的判試所以我說居然從2018我們就開始有超前部署像這些我們當初已經有規劃的包含豬農消費者的部分一定要先讓他們知道對我們持續在做謝謝委員提醒好那我們現在因為"},{"start":617.935,"end":634.33,"text":"非洲豬瘟它有潛伏期冷凍豬肉可以100天冷藏豬肉100天冷凍豬肉可以到1000天那我們現在擔心是說你15天的禁令萬一15天以後又還有是不是15天又15天那這個時間是不是會一直延長下去"},{"start":635.351,"end":649.26,"text":"我們在整個處理這個應變的部分就是這個案例場發生發生我們用15天的禁運的目的就是說可能的傳播鏈我們要把它截斷這樣的話我們去找"},{"start":650.2,"end":677.367,"text":"除了這個案例場以外其他的案例場有沒有同時發生那第一輪的疫調裡面我們很幸運的覺得說這個案例場並沒有擴散的跡象但是現在還在潛伏期不敢這樣百分之百想說因為我們現在擔心說我們現在是禁載禁運而且禁用廚餘嘛那所以現在禁用廚餘我相信今天大家都討論很多廚餘的部分怎麼去處理所以這一部分可能要請我們環境部彭部長"},{"start":679.687,"end":698.843,"text":"好 那陳部長 那你就請回我問一下彭部長請彭部長 副委員好好 彭部長 那針對我們廚餘去化的方式其實昨天本席有總諮詢問行政院院長其實他也說他不滿意現在廚餘的處理方式那請問部長有什麼想法"},{"start":699.623,"end":722.337,"text":"包委員因為我必須感謝過去養豬可以解決很多廚藝的問題未來不管這個廚藝怎麼去去化這個廚藝可不可以拿來養豬其實現在其實我覺得還是有一些更好的方法如果說還是有珍珠的一個方式的話珍珠中心是一種方式但是如何對於現有的珍珠能夠加強監控這是我們可以做的"},{"start":722.657,"end":740.443,"text":"那如果未來廚藝不養豬它可能是要有一段時間那這個時候就要想辦法把廚藝的例如說生殖能源 黑水盲或是各種堆肥的所謂的量能把它盤點算出來要有一段時間我們是鼓勵這樣的措施的對 但是我們現在大部分"},{"start":741.583,"end":758.131,"text":"現在那麼多處理好像很多都是用掩埋的方式處理對不對目前在緊急狀況下有些縣市它的量能不夠他只好用掩埋的方式做處理所以行政院長對於就是因為現在大部分都用掩埋方式所以他是不埋"},{"start":758.231,"end":773.264,"text":"沒有沒有委員大概就是台中啦台中是比較多啦那台中也宣布說他們用現在要進到焚化廠那部長剛剛也有提到喔那就是生殖能處理廠還有真主中心等等都是一個很好的方式嘛是"},{"start":773.564,"end":791.118,"text":"那現在因為現在發生這個事情之後我相信現在連地方政府大家都非常的重視那是不是環境部針對我們生食能處理廠還有珍屬中心是不是能夠支持甚至補助經費讓他們去做這些的設備"},{"start":792.84,"end":807.32,"text":"報委員 這個其實不見得是我們要經費補助這個經過一些設計 生態系的建立之後其實是可以用BOT的方式能夠建立起來像桃園的那個生殖能中心就是這樣的一個案例不見得是政府要拿很多錢出來對啊 那至少要"},{"start":807.62,"end":834.291,"text":"怎麼去輔導他們去做我們是期待有更多但是跟委員報告因為像這樣的措施很容易變成是嫌惡設施所以這個部分也需要跟民眾那當然地方政府一定要有這個意願能夠來做不然的話我們想做也做不出來好 所以針對這部分現在非洲豬瘟發生大家就重視到廚藥的問題所以希望部長我們來加速來嚴寧怎麼樣處理廚藥的問題"},{"start":836.832,"end":847.845,"text":"那這些我們該怎麼去輔導他去做生殖能處理場怎麼去輔導他去做珍珠中心我相信環境部還是要大力的去推動去支持是 是 沒問題好 謝謝好 謝謝馮董那接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1292,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時2分）謝謝主席，先請陳部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：陳部長好。在10月26日的記者會，你本來說第2天就可以提出完整的補助方案，那後來又改一週，所以是不是確定下週一可以提出完整的補助方案？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我記得沒有錯的話，當初在這個方案裡面只針對一個小環節，我們後來考慮到整個豬產業不是只有特定的一個環節受到影響，所以我才會請同事把整個豬的一級的產業鏈都把它評估出來，這樣的話在這個疫情期間受影響的這些從業人員，我們才能夠讓他們比較安心。"],["涂委員權吉：所以最快什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：最慢這個禮拜六之前，我們就會把完整的方案做公布，整個方案的公布還要經過行政院先同意，因為需要一些經費。"],["涂委員權吉：昨天總質詢的時候，本席提到請部長幫忙，針對豬農短期飼料補助，部長好像也說這部分也會納入。"],["陳部長駿季：這個有納入我們的方案裡面。"],["涂委員權吉：因為這次非洲豬瘟來得很快，臺灣這次的疫情對豬農有很大的影響，我們希望相關補助的公布速度也要快，儘量能夠全面補助以減少豬農這麼大的損失。"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的，我們就是針對豬產業鏈的一級生產鏈，我們都會來協助處理。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以儘量層面做大嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["涂委員權吉：減少他們的損失。","另外，非洲豬瘟爆發到現在，10月27日應變中心召開第39次會議，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們應變中心每天開會，我們每天開。"],["涂委員權吉：10月27日開第39次嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我可能要確認一下。"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係。現在還沒有公布發生非洲豬瘟的原因，現在原因還沒有找到對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：照整個案例場的權責是由臺中市政府要去疫調，臺中市政府在疫調的過程中有一些必須釐清的，所以還會不斷的去調查，因為中央應變中心除了臺中市以外，其實是全臺灣各縣市所有農業行政的首長或代表會參加，他們也一直在關心整個案情的發展，所以我們會把相關的這些工作在我們的工作會議裡面去討論跟處理。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也希望原因趕快找出來，因為民眾很恐慌，網路上也議論紛紛，一下說越南配偶，也有說陸配，也有人說什麼為了萊豬的進口，所以我們要找出原因，請教多久可以完成基因序列的定序？這個檢測什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳部長駿季：禮拜五。"],["涂委員權吉：禮拜五可以完成。"],["陳部長駿季：是，不過我要先跟委員報告，即使基因定序完，也不能說這個是中國來的，這個是越南來的，這個沒有辦法……"],["涂委員權吉：定序完只是跟哪一國的豬隻基因序列相似，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：這個有它的複雜性，因為在做比對的時候，一定要那個國家把它的基因序列上網，我們才能夠比對，可是很可惜的，中國對所有的基因序列都不上網，不上網的話，你就沒有辦法核對，所以我們只知道這個基因的序列，可能這個基因裡面是不是有一些重組或其他的部分，要對這個進行瞭解。"],["涂委員權吉：所以就算定序之後也沒有辦法證明是哪一個國家的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有辦法證明，這沒辦法證明。"],["涂委員權吉：所以原因可能還是不容易找到？"],["陳部長駿季：真的，因為非洲豬瘟有可能是廚餘，有可能是人的接觸，比如到國外已發病的案場、畜牧場，然後從衣服或是什麼東西攜帶進來都有可能啦，所以我們必須要用排除的方式也好，或用確認的方式也好，去加以釐清。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我們也希望發生的原因儘量能夠找到，以後才有辦法去遏止。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在的疫調其實還有一個重點，除了趕快找到可能的來源以外，更重要就是說在這個疫調過程中可以瞭解我們整個防疫系統裡面哪一些還可以去做精進，這個才是一個重點。"],["涂委員權吉：我們現在染疫死亡豬隻的處理方式？"],["陳部長駿季：染疫就那一頭啊，其他的都是斃死豬啦，因為豬隻在飼養過程中，牠可能因為管理不當或是可能有其他的疾病，這些疾病都不是法定的傳染病，一般來講是可以送到化製廠，或者是焚燒也可以，或是掩埋，有三種模式，根據當地本身的條件而決定。但是我要再強調，這不是非洲豬瘟的斃死豬，因為非洲豬瘟的斃死豬只有一頭，就是我們現在發現檢測出來的那一頭。"],["涂委員權吉：那其他的不是？"],["陳部長駿季：現在我們在疫調的過程中發現的都是斃死豬，不是感染而引起死亡的隻豬，但是我們去抽檢都是陰性，都不是非洲豬瘟。"],["涂委員權吉：所以目前查到因為非洲豬瘟死亡的只有一頭？"],["陳部長駿季：就是檢測出來的只有一頭，其他的……"],["涂委員權吉：其他的還沒有檢測？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個場全部撲殺嘛，所以其他的場域我們檢測出來的，我們在公布時檢測出來都是一般正常的，有因為疾病而死亡的，但不是非洲豬瘟染病而死亡的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以那個案場全部撲殺之後最後是掩埋，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那是因為緊急撲殺而掩埋。"],["涂委員權吉：那掩埋的地點後來應該都有管理吧？"],["陳部長駿季：這個掩埋地點其實在平常的規劃裡面就已經確認在那個地點了，因為我們對非洲豬瘟有一個團隊即中央應變中心，我們從108年開始一直持續沒有間斷喔，每年都開三到四次會，所以在那個時候就預定了，萬一有問題發生的時候在哪邊掩埋，有關掩埋的所有程序都是按照那個方式來做。"],["涂委員權吉：所以也可以管理好，不會有以後再擴散的問題？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以現在是鎖定在這個案場，沒有其他外擴的跡象，我們只能這樣講。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以對掩埋場都有管理嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["涂委員權吉：另外，記得在2018年農業部好像已經有超前部署，啓動各種非洲豬瘟防疫管理措施，好像就已經有超前部署，所以到現在算一算應該也有7年了啦。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["涂委員權吉：我們這7年到底做了什麼？怎麼感覺非洲豬瘟一來，好像大家很多事情還沒有準備好。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們在107年成立中央應變中心後就沒有結束，就一直持續著，在這個過程中，其實臺灣是非非洲豬瘟疫區，所以都沒有非洲豬瘟的前提之下，我們的重點是在邊境的防疫，就是將病毒阻絕於境外，這個部分特別是針對手提行李、人員旅客的後送行李、郵包、郵件，還有走私的查緝，是一直在強調這部分。所以我們在歷次成果對外宣布時，我們的確也檢測到一些高風險疫區來的肉製品是含有非洲豬瘟的病毒，所以我們的重點是在防疫，就是阻絕於境外。這次是第一次我們發現到這個案例，其實我們本身有演練，包括委員剛才講的遇到了以後要掩埋在哪邊及掩埋的方法，其實我們都有演練。"],["涂委員權吉：既然從2018年我們就開始做超前部署，所以針對發生以後這些後續的問題，包含廚餘及這些豬隻掩埋，以及民眾該怎麼去應對，這些應該要有一個指引，不然會造成民眾相當的恐慌。"],["陳部長駿季：其實這些指引我們都有，現在比較弱的地方就是疫調的部分，其他的針對關聯場的調查及採樣、檢測，包括全國的，我相信目前他們做的還符合規定。"],["涂委員權吉：我也希望農業部對這方面儘量多宣傳讓民眾瞭解，避免民眾因為不瞭解造成恐慌，所以要有一些指引，民眾該怎麼去面對、怎麼去處理，或是該怎麼去觀察外觀等等，應該要教育一下民眾。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想分兩個層次，一個層次是消費者，一個層次是豬農，消費者就是放心的吃豬肉，現在很多影片說豬肉可能吃了會怎樣，我覺得這個是錯假訊息，我們一直在處理。"],["涂委員權吉：對，就是該教育的還是要教育。"],["陳部長駿季：另外一個部分是豬農的部分，這些可能疑似案例跟胸膜型肺炎的圖卡部分我們都有給豬農，讓他們去做判視，加強他們的判視。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們既然從2018就開始有超前部署，像這些我們當初已經有規劃的，包含豬農及消費者的部分一定要先讓他們知道。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們持續在做，謝謝委員提醒。"],["涂委員權吉：因為非洲豬瘟有潛伏期，冷藏豬肉100天，冷凍豬肉可以到1,000天，我們現在擔心的是，現在是15天的禁令，萬一在15天以後又還有，是不是15天之後又15天？這個時間是不是會一直延長下去？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在整個處理應變的部分，就是這個案例場發生，我們用15天禁運的目的就是要把可能的傳播鏈截斷，然後我們去找除了這個案例場以外的其他案例場有沒有同時發生，在第一輪的疫調裡面，我們很幸運的覺得這個案例場並沒有擴散的跡象，但是現在還在潛伏期，不敢百分之百這樣說。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們擔心現在是禁宰、禁運，而且禁用廚餘嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["涂委員權吉：有關禁用廚餘，我相信今天大家都討論很多廚餘怎麼去處理，所以這一部分要請教環境部彭部長，陳部長請回，繼續我詢問彭部長。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：彭部長好。針對廚餘去化的方式，其實昨天本席在總質詢時有詢問行政院長，他也說不滿意現在廚餘的處理方式，請問部長有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須感謝過去養豬可以解決很多廚餘的問題，未來不管廚餘怎麼去化，廚餘可不可以拿來養豬，其實現在我覺得還是有一些更好的方法，如果還是有蒸煮方式的話，蒸煮中心是一種方式，但是如何對現有的蒸煮能夠加強監控，這是我們可以做的。如果未來廚餘不養豬，這可能需要一段時間，那這個時候就要想辦法把廚餘的例如生質能源、黑水虻或是各種堆肥的這個量能要盤點算出來，這要一段時間，我們是鼓勵這樣的措施。"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是現在那麼多廚餘，好像很多都是用掩埋的方式處理對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：目前在緊急狀況下，有些縣市的量能不夠，只好用掩埋的方式做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：對於現在大部分都用掩埋方式，行政院長是非常不滿。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，大概就是臺中啦，臺中市比較多啦，臺中也宣布現在要進到焚化廠去做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：部長剛剛也有提到生質能處理廠及蒸煮中心等等都是一個很好的方式。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["涂委員權吉：在發生這個事情之後，我相信現在地方政府都非常重視，環境部針對生質能處理廠還有蒸煮中心是不是能夠支持，甚至補助經費讓他們做這些設備？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實不見得是我們要經費補助，這個經過一些設計，生態系的建立之後，其實是可以用BOT的方式能夠建立起來，像桃園的生質能中心就是這樣的案例，不見得是政府要拿很多錢出來。"],["涂委員權吉：至少要輔導他們怎麼去做。"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們是期待有更多，但是跟委員報告，因為像這樣的措施很容易變成是嫌惡設施，所以這個部分也希望跟民眾溝通，當然地方政府一定要有這個意願能夠來做，不然的話我們想做也做不出來。"],["涂委員權吉：現在非洲豬瘟發生，大家就重視廚餘的問題，所以希望部長加速研擬怎麼樣處理廚餘的問題，至於該怎麼去輔導做生質能處理廠及蒸煮中心，我相信環境部還是要大力的推動去支持。"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒問題，謝謝委員的意見。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請楊曜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da518aded78b9ef22de1b08d4a2736e01e2b1e9be59762a4979ed690d3a913060f315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:40:10 - 11:46:47","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T11:40:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T11:46:47+08:00","duration":397,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.59096875,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.902843750000002,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.20596875,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.459093750000001,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.44534375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.62659375,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.41534375,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.934093750000002,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.882843750000003,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.15221875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.42596875,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.00784375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.16784375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.17534375,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.768468750000004,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.22346875000001,"end":67.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.88534375,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.21721875,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.80971875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.28159375,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.96846875,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.98534375000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.06971875,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.18784375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.48721875000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.21284375,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.64721875000001,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.11471875000001,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.25346875000001,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.26596875000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.00409375000001,"end":120.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.23596875000001,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.51846875000001,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.61096875000001,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.82471875000002,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.43596875,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.21596875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.09284375000001,"end":144.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.34159375000002,"end":145.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.64096875,"end":150.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.45909375000002,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.50971875000002,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.96534375000002,"end":151.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.80034375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.78721875000002,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.03596875000002,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.27221875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.32284375,"end":157.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.69409375,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.75284375,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.82721875000001,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.01284375,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.47659375,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.92346875,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.03221875,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.31034375000002,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.46534375000002,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.88284375,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.68846875,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.18159375000002,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.51034375,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":200.80971875,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.26096875000002,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20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台電的長官有請部長還有我們台電總經理 謝謝兩位長官好我們都很清楚台灣的用電其實非常吃緊你看到國外都是這樣來看美僑商會"},{"start":37.455,"end":58.729,"text":"美僑商會 你可以看美國商會American Chairman Taiwan在6月份發布的《2025台灣白皮書》台灣人員議題已經取代法規的改革成為會員企業首要的關切商會表示核電退場"},{"start":59.91,"end":75.166,"text":"燃煤發電下降天然氣價格又受全球這個市場的波動影響加上綠能裝岸延宕主管機關重疊讓台灣高耗能的產業面臨投資風險"},{"start":77.408,"end":103.554,"text":"這是美國商會今年6月提出來的就大家都知道 普遍都知道只有你們經濟部長官台電長官在講不缺電了 不缺電了 可是大家都知道台灣的用電其實是吃緊的吃緊的 我就請教這個看誰要回答啦 部長你要不要回答還是台電要不要回答綠能目前佔我們的發電的比重多少綠能 綠能 綠能 綠能"},{"start":107.048,"end":116.021,"text":"到去年為止到今年的話1到8月大概占12點11點9啦這裡面資料是11點9啦2016到多少11點9是去年的去年那今年到12是吧"},{"start":122.651,"end":150.248,"text":"到目前到8月我們同意到8月大概12點多那可能到年底我們還會再觀察陸續大概有一些風力發電跟這個太陽光電會提上來為了虛幻的揮霍家園都很清楚嘛台灣的環境已經被破壞的殆盡了水庫上面蓋太陽能板你要不要告訴我哪一個水庫沒有蓋現在現在我們只有6座水庫蓋那其他都沒有蓋總共幾個水庫"},{"start":152.881,"end":173.775,"text":"我們總共幾個水庫報告委員有95座水庫95座水庫6座哪6座有蓋供電板報告委員我們現在手上資料是有烏山頭水庫烏山頭水庫阿公店水庫阿公店水庫還有三個比較小的一個是鹽水坪內浦坪內浦坪還有一個金門的金湖"},{"start":175.237,"end":199.247,"text":"對 你們的規劃未來還會不會在水庫上面再蓋關鍵板未來還要不要目前沒有申請案件誰申請對 剛剛特別再報告一下剛剛5座才加一個鳳山水庫所以總共是6座總共6座是發電量多少發電量總共現在是大概29MW那佔比例呢 佔我們總發電量多少"},{"start":200.848,"end":206.749,"text":"非常非常小非常小啊我覺得這個答案啦非常小的發電量部長啊這值得嗎把台灣的整個生態全部破壞掉水庫破壞 農地破壞 漁運破壞為了你們的這個虛無縹緲的一個非核家園把整個生態環境都這樣破壞你覺得值得嗎再生能源的發展跟非不非核好像沒有關係就是因為你們要拼命蓋"},{"start":230.233,"end":246.181,"text":"為了廢核所以要光電要封建啊光電太陽能就上去了啦將來即便能源如果重啟或者是有新的核能太陽能光電還是會持續做啊但是你不要破壞水庫嘛你不要破壞餘溫嘛"},{"start":248.142,"end":262.548,"text":"魚 那魚都死掉 怎麼會被破壞對不對 魚 什麼魚電共生結果是魚死了 電有了變這樣子啊 清楚的看得到 你說沒有來 你們原來講的河山要嚴厲是不是河山要嚴厲 有沒有"},{"start":264.299,"end":286.609,"text":"因為這個命題就是現在到了就是可能會自我檢查階段因為法已經公布了法都公布了可以嚴厲可能我們台電會開始做自我檢查來台電講一下時間表好不好河山廠怎麼因應的時間表跟委員報告我們現在的程序是先做現況評估"},{"start":288.43,"end":307.603,"text":"那我們現況評估在10月13號已經把這個的評估的報告送到我時間到了快點講那接著呢這個做完之後如果說確實說可以往下走的話我們河山會先做再運轉計畫等等的這些程序到最後河山場如果真的可以用到什麼要多久時間啊"},{"start":310.826,"end":322.057,"text":"因為有些變數不是台電能掌握的一切如果順利 三年夠不夠順利 一切都順利 三年夠不夠大概3.5年吧3.5年 好 最後一個小問題來 我們看 有一家廠 因為現在台電"},{"start":328.766,"end":348.128,"text":"台電這個都會要廠商如果來投資的話會要他提出一個用電計畫廠商用電計畫然後台電就跟他講供電的時程我所了解的現在有一家廠商就要申請結果你們看說最快兩年以後才能夠正常供電人家就離開了"},{"start":349.729,"end":378.387,"text":"這個東西就代表你們供電吃緊了這個阿曼妮跟簽名講的是對的啊美國商會跟委員報告其實他這個我不知道是哪個案例不知道是哪個案例因為我們每天的你們每天在拒絕人家就是因為你們電不夠人家跑掉了一家一家跑掉了因為有一些可能會牽涉到輸電線要建設需要一點時間你們現在我查了你們現在台電就會有供電時程最快兩年後"},{"start":379.227,"end":393.281,"text":"所以目前北部非常吃緊我們這話結束北部非常吃緊所以幾乎北部的要在北部投資的通通被你們打槍這才是目前最嚴重的問題跟委員報告要看個案的狀況你現在再跟我報告我告訴你哪一家廠商我這裡不願意講好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":851,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時40分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請經濟部的龔部長及台電的長官。"],["主席：請部長及台電總經理，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。我們都很清楚臺灣的用電其實非常吃緊，你看國外都是這樣來看，美國商會（American Chamber in Taiwan）在6月份發布2025臺灣白皮書，指出臺灣能源議題已經取代法規的改革，成為會員企業首要的關切。商會表示，核電退場，燃煤發電下降，天然氣價格又受全球市場的波動影響，加上綠能專案延宕，主管機關重疊，讓臺灣高耗能的產業面臨投資風險。這是美國商會今年6月所提出來的。就大家都知道、普遍都知道，只有經濟部長官、台電長官在講不缺電了、不缺電了，可是大家都知道臺灣的用電其實是吃緊的。我就請教……看誰要回答啦！看部長你要不要回答，還是台電回答。綠能目前占我們的發電比重有多少？"],["李署長君禮：到去年為止……今年1到8月大概占十二點多。"],["賴委員士葆：11.9啦！這裡面資料有寫，11.9啦！2016到多少？"],["李署長君禮：11.9是去年的。"],["賴委員士葆：那今年到12，是不是？"],["李署長君禮：目前我們統計到8月，大概十二點多，可能到年底我們還會再觀察，陸續有一些風力發電跟太陽光電會漲上來。"],["賴委員士葆：為了虛幻的非核家園，我們都很清楚，臺灣的環境已經被破壞殆盡，水庫上面蓋太陽能板，你要不要告訴我現在還有哪一個水庫沒有蓋？"],["李署長君禮：現在我們只有6座水庫有蓋，其他都沒有蓋。"],["賴委員士葆：我們總共有幾個水庫？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，有95座水庫。"],["賴委員士葆：95座水庫中，哪6座有蓋光電板？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，我們現在手上資料是有烏山頭水庫、阿公店水庫，還有三個比較小的，一個是鹽水埤、內埔子，還有一個金門的金湖。"],["賴委員士葆：就你們的規劃，未來還會不會在水庫上面再蓋光電板？未來還要不要？"],["林署長元鵬：目前沒有申請案件。"],["賴委員士葆：誰申請？"],["林署長元鵬：特別再報告一下，除了剛剛的5座外，再加一個鳳山水庫，所以總共是6座。"],["賴委員士葆：發電量多少？"],["林署長元鵬：現在發電量總共大概29MW。"],["賴委員士葆：占的比例呢？占我們總發電量的多少？"],["林署長元鵬：非常非常小。"],["賴委員士葆：非常小啦！我現在這個答案，非常小的發電量，部長，這值得嗎？把臺灣的生態全部破壞掉，水庫破壞、農地破壞、魚塭破壞，就為了你們那虛無飄渺的非核家園，把整個生態環境都破壞成這樣，你覺得值得嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，再生能源的發展跟非不非核好像沒有關係。"],["賴委員士葆：當然有，怎麼會沒有關係？你們之所以拼命蓋，就是為了非核，所以要光電、要風電，光電、太陽能就上去了。"],["龔部長明鑫：將來即便能源重啟或者有新的核能，太陽能光電還是會持續做，再生能源還是會持續做。"],["賴委員士葆：繼續做就繼續做，但是你不要破壞水庫、你不要破壞魚塭嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有破壞。"],["賴委員士葆：魚塭的魚都死掉了，怎麼會沒有被破壞，對不對？什麼漁電共生，結果魚死了，電有了，變這樣子啊！都清楚的看得到，你還說沒有。","來，你們原來說核三要延役，是不是核三要延役，有沒有？有沒有這個命題？"],["龔部長明鑫：現在到了可能會自我檢查階段，因為法已經公布了。"],["賴委員士葆：法都公布了，可以延役啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：可能台電會開始做自我檢查……"],["賴委員士葆：來，台電講一下時間表好不好？就是核三廠怎麼因應的時間表。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們現在的程序是先做現況評估，我們現況評估在10月13日已經把評估報告送到經濟部……"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，快點講。"],["王總經理耀庭：接著這個做完之後，如果確實可以往下走的話，核三會先做再運轉計畫等等的程序……"],["賴委員士葆：到最後核三廠如果真的可以用，要多久時間？快一點2年夠嗎？3年夠嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為有些變數不是台電能掌握的，譬如說……"],["賴委員士葆：如果一切順利，3年夠不夠？一切都順利的話，3年夠不夠？"],["王總經理耀庭：大概3.5年吧。"],["賴委員士葆：好。最後一個小問題，因為現在如果廠商要來投資的話，台電都要他提出一個廠商用電計畫，然後台電就跟他講供電的時程。就我所了解，現在有一家廠商要申請，結果你們看說，最快2年以後才能夠正常供電。人家就離開了。這個東西就代表你們供電吃緊，American Chamber（美國商會）講的是對的。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我不知道是哪個案例，因為我們每天……"],["賴委員士葆：你們每天在reject人家啊，就是因為你們電不夠，人家跑掉啦！一家、一家跑掉啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：不是、不是，因為有一些可能會牽涉到輸電線要建設，需要一點時間，所以要……"],["賴委員士葆：我查了，你們現在台電就會有供電時程，最快2年後，所以目前北部非常吃緊，幾乎要在北部投資的，統統被你們打槍，這個才是目前最嚴重的問題。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，要看個案的狀況才知道。"],["賴委員士葆：你私底下再跟我報告，我告訴你哪一家廠商，我這裡不願意講。"],["王總經理耀庭：好。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝相關單位。","現在請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51b0ad7d23096e135fb08d4a2736e01e2b1e9be59762a4979e16d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:18:00 - 09:26:41","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T09:18:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T09:26:41+08:00","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.74159375,"end":26.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.75284375,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.71034375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.88221875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.99096875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.06971875,"end":60.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.915968750000005,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.23596875,"end":67.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.00346875000001,"end":70.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.14221875,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.21721875,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.78971875,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.52784375,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.23971875000001,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.00659375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.10346875,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.19159375000001,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.82346875,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.27034375000001,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.70471875000001,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.56096875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.61784375000002,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.49471875,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.89534375,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.69221875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.70909375000002,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.92846875,"end":142.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.24909375000001,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.19409375,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.88096875000002,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.67346875,"end":155.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.33534375000002,"end":161.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":159.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.55846875,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.93784375,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.74159375000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.17596875,"end":207.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.98159375,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.43221875,"end":217.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.98846875,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.57909375000003,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.76471875000001,"end":218.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.91659375,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.10159375,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.32471875000002,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.96159375000002,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.19721875000002,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.02409375000002,"end":235.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.77034375000002,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.05721875,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.64221875,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.75596875000002,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.77284375000002,"end":247.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.82346875000002,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.14409375000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.17784375000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.27909375000002,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.54909375000003,"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謝謝主席我是不是請一下工部長不請工部長"},{"start":14.998,"end":39.359,"text":"邱委員早部長早部長我想這個我們今天在處理這個所謂的海濫七法那這目前的三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關謝謝部長剛剛的報告海濫七法我想這個大家最近台灣其實是更能夠深刻的感受到從今年其實也有已經有多起的所謂海濫被破壞的這樣的一個事件"},{"start":40.14,"end":64.123,"text":"那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本"},{"start":65.307,"end":82.709,"text":"我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分"},{"start":83.84,"end":101.47,"text":"容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員"},{"start":106.223,"end":127.063,"text":"故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過"},{"start":127.728,"end":142.368,"text":"但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途"},{"start":144.289,"end":158.802,"text":"其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照"},{"start":161.664,"end":189.427,"text":"比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲 紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防"},{"start":190.208,"end":203.681,"text":"所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範 有沒有"},{"start":206.226,"end":235.401,"text":"有沒有做過討論 第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來 部長請您一併說明報告委員 因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標 我們的座標也都會給海巡 它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況"},{"start":236.826,"end":264.059,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法 七法也有集中立法"},{"start":264.679,"end":292.407,"text":"比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個 各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查"},{"start":294.608,"end":321.443,"text":"司法機關 那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAW Source系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS 沒有接收到"},{"start":322.233,"end":329.223,"text":"所以他故意把AIS關閉是 所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則 論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的"},{"start":334.91,"end":361.666,"text":"副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做"},{"start":362.827,"end":385.521,"text":"或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常"},{"start":386.281,"end":411.11,"text":"好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中"},{"start":411.901,"end":429.17,"text":"好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式"},{"start":430.836,"end":458.954,"text":"未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那"},{"start":459.494,"end":462.625,"text":"除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後"},{"start":463.826,"end":490.869,"text":"有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定"},{"start":491.409,"end":520.424,"text":"提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告 紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK 好 了解 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時18分）謝謝主席，我請一下龔部長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，我們今天在處理所謂的海纜七法，而目前這三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關，謝謝部長剛剛的報告。我想最近臺灣大家更能夠深刻地感受到，其實今年也已經有多起的海纜被破壞的事件，而海纜是我們國家的數位命脈，我們有非常多國際資料傳輸都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜，七法的目的除了要保障以外，我覺得很重要的國安問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的。部長，我直接請教一下，現在行政院的版本談到故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑；過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑，或者只有200萬元的罰款，「故意」跟「過失」要怎麼樣區分？容易區分得出來嗎？能不能比照美國電信安全法的模式，把刑責拉高呢？過去在我們行政院版討論的過程裡頭，有沒有做過這一方面的考量？部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，故意或過失基本上法院會認定，不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解……"],["邱委員議瑩：行為上面呢？法律上當然是有分什麼叫故意，什麼叫過失嘛，行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，基本上它要開AIS出來，對不對？如果一直在那邊滯留，假如它只是通行的話，按照道理它的速度應該很容易就過了，但是一直在那邊滯留、繞圈圈的話，這個就比較明顯……當然也不是我們認定的，但是這個就好像比較不是過失而已，可能它有特定的用途。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們看過海巡署給的相關資料，其實都非常清楚，有很多漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是，甚至它還下錨。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我要請教，你們認不認為應該要比照美國的模式，把刑期提高？甚至我覺得依現在整個國際的趨勢，去設立一個海纜保護區，比如美國當然是把刑度提高；澳洲、紐西蘭也設定了海纜保護區；歐盟也成立了海纜安全行動機制，跟其他的國家做區域的聯防。所以臺灣有沒有可能，或者你們有沒有討論過，是不是應該要規劃設立海纜保護區，作為你們未來驅離或者沒入這些裁罰很明確的規範？有沒有？有沒有做過討論？這是第一個。如果有討論，在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到？如果沒有做過討論，不劃定保護區的理由是什麼？部長，請您一併說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為執行端比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行，我們的座標也都會給海巡，他們也會公告，來做一些執行。"],["邱委員議瑩：你沒有回答我的問題，我在問你有沒有想要設定海纜的走廊保育區，有沒有？你跟我講是海委會執行，海委會今天有沒有人來？"],["龔部長明鑫：他們也有，因為有討論過啦，但是……"],["邱委員議瑩：海巡署副署長，請您說明一下。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，在行政院四次會議中的確有討論，有討論分散立法，放在各部會，就是現在的修法七法；也有集中立法，比方要不要定專法……"],["邱委員議瑩：海纜保護區的部分嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：或海纜保護區也有討論。後來考慮是這樣，因為海纜保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益，還有實際執法問題，後來就決定維持目前12浬，依照國際法規定12浬，我們嚴格執法。這部分落實在海纜七法，有經過充分的討論。第二個，跟委員報告，有關過失犯部分，在個案部分我們都會完整蒐證給檢察、司法機關，以宏泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴、法官判決船長三年有期徒刑，就認定船上有海上圖資明白標示它就在海底電纜上面，結果船長竟然下錨，所以他是故意的；另外，中華電信有一個SAWS系統，只要經過它的電區，它會發訊號，不過這艘船沒有開AIS，沒有接收到。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以他故意把AIS關閉？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以檢察官依個案事實認定，依據經驗法則、論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，副署長，我還是要再更進一步請教，如果為了保護我們的漁船作業，不宜劃設所謂的海纜保護區，那我們比照其他的國家，比如你剛剛談到的，我們跟澳洲、跟日本、跟美國所謂區域聯防的這一塊，到底未來應該怎麼做？或者你們未來會怎麼樣去加強？很顯然地，大家都注意到海底電纜不斷被故意破壞，這對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅。關於印太區域聯防這件事情，你們會怎麼做？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個是非常好的方向，我們現在全力以赴，因為考量國際情勢，我們現在透過各種管道，包括外交途徑等等，希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作，因為海底電纜是我們國家對外的生命線，這都是互相連結的，所以更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作。這一部分相關部會持續努力中。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我再進一步請教，你所謂的相關合作，當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛，透過我們的外交管道或國安系統，可能要跟這些國家商談，那商談之後的合作模式未來會不會顯示在我們修法這個層級上？比如我們現在的修法會不會過輕，或者是其實我們跟印太區域這幾個國家相對來講都有一定的默契，就是在執法上面，在各個國家的法令修正上，其實大家會有一定的默契去執行。除了海底電纜可能被切斷，有沒有其他的補強措施或應急的措施，也是其他的印太區域國家可以一起共同合作的？您只要回答我有或者是沒有就好，我不要了解細部的問題，因為細部問題有可能牽涉到國家機密。"],["謝副署長慶欽：有，確實，包括情資分享、共同打擊類似的活動。另外，在修法部分，對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定，已經提高刑責到10年，而且罰金是5,000萬，這部分可以發生相當的嚇阻作用。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以您覺得現在行政院版本的刑責跟罰則是OK的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：可以達到嚇阻效果。跟委員報告，宏泰58號不僅是我們臺灣第一次破壞電纜起訴判決有罪案件，更是全世界第一例，包括歐洲國家等相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程，所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，了解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質訊，謝謝相關單位的備詢。","在林岱樺委員質詢前，先確定一下議事錄，請問各位有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，確定。","請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}},{"id":"164837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51596e7e9d32c02bf5c033660070f94f421e9be59762a4979eb72b967369a5ca435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"13:04:46 - 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您時常提到新竹縣的虎口鄉它是全國鄉鎮市的鄉裡面是全國第一大鄉"},{"start":43.352,"end":64.05,"text":"目前已经是全国第一大所以它表示什么表示它人口还有地方的发展是非常活络的那这边有新丰湖口工业区新竹产业园区还有很多的一些物流各方面地方发展非常迅速"},{"start":64.77,"end":90.043,"text":"那因為今天剛好這個台鐵局鐵道局還有台鐵公司來所以本席要特別的來針對我們台鐵捷運化台鐵捷運化這個政策本席非常認同那針對新竹縣虎口鄉這邊呢他人口這麼快速的成長我們交通建設應該是要在走在更前面"},{"start":90.782,"end":103.982,"text":"那現在這個已經有些落後了所以之前有向您反映的虎口第二交流道那今天是要特別來反映我們虎口有個虎口車站就是這個台鐵的車站"},{"start":106.839,"end":134.553,"text":"現在呢鄉親們已經都連署各方面整個那個腹地大概人口有十幾萬的人口希望在南湖口再設一個檢疫車站這個部分我們想了解就是說我們這個台鐵捷運化所以在這個人口眾多的地區來設這個檢疫車站我們希望部長這裡可以來支持可以嗎"},{"start":135.69,"end":157.856,"text":"報告委員這個我們之前可能還沒有收到沒有收到這個案子但是委員您今天在建議這件事我們就請鐵道局跟台鐵公司大家一起來研議本席的前一任這個選區的立委他之前提了但是那時候好像回應是還不到就是說好像還沒有覺得可行性"},{"start":158.556,"end":182.614,"text":"或者是那時候還沒有提出台鐵捷運化這個政策後來我們看到台鐵捷運化我們覺得非常好因為這個可以讓我們整個的運輸各方面地方的發展區域的發展都更好我們在幾個都會區它的捷運化的部分已經有做了包含車站的部分包含車次的部分區間車的車次的部分有做調整委員所提到是現在湖口"},{"start":183.374,"end":212.294,"text":"五口的人口增加非常快速那是一個新的變化那我們就針對這件事情來做可行性方面的研究一下我們內部來做一下請台鐵先做一下這方面的研究如果有這方面的需求那我們會一起來協助對 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謝謝那就是這個南匯鐵路雙軌化的部分當然之前有這個微笑南彎的計畫我們也非常期待"},{"start":180.214,"end":195.333,"text":"那就是說在這個微笑南灣這個計畫那個交通部要從這個南台灣一直到台東花蓮重新整個重整刷新這個觀光的這些亮點那我想這些觀光亮點"},{"start":197.014,"end":221.948,"text":"刷新之後那我們就是說交通部甚至在未來還可以跟旅行社來溝通配合來增加國外的國外觀光客直接從高雄入境然後再來南回往台東華聯走這樣子的路線那我想再加上之前其實幾個風災讓那個東部的不管公路鐵路其實都斷掉"},{"start":222.568,"end":245.179,"text":"然後再加上這一次光復救災也是很多人我在火車上遇到很多人就是整個從這個高雄這樣坐南回繞上去所以這個南回鐵路雙軌化這件事情是很重要不然每次在教會列車確實耗掉我們很多的時間那一樣的就是說本席還是"},{"start":246.5,"end":273.886,"text":"很關心就是到底這個南迴鐵路雙軌劃計提升為快鐵計劃這個部分就是說到底你們在期程上我們會趕快來爭取院的核定如果行政院核定可行性研究過了之後我們就會進行綜合規劃的進度對就是因為核定有沒有一個期程你們預計可能大概落在什麼時候我們盡量爭取行政院那邊可以趕快核定"},{"start":275.084,"end":294.891,"text":"因為上次也已經過了一年我了解 但我想很多事情我們應該都有一個規劃啦就是說希望能夠如期大概什麼時候完成什麼這樣子我們希望盡快啦我們盡量爭取還是部長很保守對 我們因應期盼"},{"start":295.871,"end":318.736,"text":"那這個可能我還是因為這是行政院這邊我必須要用拜託跟爭取的角度去那我也陪你一起去拜託好了好 謝謝周偉站起來我很快問一個就是替蘭宇問個問題部長知不知道在台灣各個離島剩下哪兩個島沒有ATM"},{"start":321.497,"end":346.033,"text":"在機場我指的是機場這個我不曉得金門澎湖馬祖的北竿南竿都有那現在就剩下綠島跟蘭嶼機場是沒有ATM的所以我想在機場設置ATM應該是蠻普遍的情形那當然在這個離島設置ATM大家一定會去考慮到他的這個經濟效益的問題但是很多地方"},{"start":346.914,"end":369.084,"text":"很多的狀況是沒有辦法用經濟效益的這個理由去評估了如果是這樣子用什麼事情都用經濟效益來看那不好意思那個蘭嶼的飛機也不用飛了船也不用開了那有一些我覺得這個比喻比較不好但是我可以提一下我們有一些罕見疾病或者有一些特殊疾病的藥物我們也不用研發了"},{"start":370.505,"end":386.522,"text":"我想這個是這個這樣的心態因為畢竟大家知道那天來你們派了這個郵局出席代表這個副管理師林小姐那特別用這樣的理由那當然我們提到包括"},{"start":387.463,"end":398.541,"text":"不管是誰啦 大家有需要用到現金在下機場 欸沒有錢了 要提個款你總不能說因為立委要去那裡提款沒有錢叫做立委 講說都這麼窮這樣子"},{"start":401.796,"end":417.732,"text":"報告委員這個案子我們有去跟中華郵政做溝通了我們在蘭嶼機場會來設置ATM這個部分已經跟他們溝通完畢了這個沒有問題已經OK了只是時程上我們會希望它能夠加快我慢慢我是"},{"start":418.893,"end":434.665,"text":"滿感謝那位副管理師啦因為他那天的心態跟失言我覺得這個是有一點歧視的狀態那感謝他的這樣的一個回覆促使大家很積極來辦理這一件"},{"start":436.827,"end":459.032,"text":"其實對我們所有一切都只是替蘭嶼的朋友來爭取而已是 謝謝委員那我想如果有順利那就很好那你們可以主動關心一下綠島是不是也有同樣的需求因為我們沒有想要再請他到辦公室來我去了解看看好 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那請你們把你們精進的方案書面資料給本席那所以一個結論也就是說今天委員都有提出這個修法對於鐵路法的修法針對於旅客暴力攻擊跟重罰那麼新增強暴"},{"start":230.206,"end":255.527,"text":"脅迫恐嚇或其他非法的這個方法呢那麼我們要新增了圖形跟法徑這個方向是不是部長你同意跟委員報告如果是可以保護員工的方向我都會來支持你都會同意齁那請教在法治上面的強度到哪裡我們還要跟我們法治大會來討論所以方向是一致那請教行政院會有版本嗎"},{"start":256.923,"end":272.238,"text":"你會有願版嗎我們目前沒有研議版本你看 你們為什麼不研議民眾這麼迫切關注的所以你必須要去研議這本席跟你建議接下來本席要跟你討論的我們台中高鐵特區114年1月8號我在這裡"},{"start":274.901,"end":290.276,"text":"又質詢我說我們的這個高鐵增加北站的這個北台中的這個站那麼當時呢次長到這邊來質詢他同意要去這個評估那現在評估的進度怎麼樣呢台中的北站對評估的進度如何呢"},{"start":299.179,"end":316.802,"text":"跟委員報告台中高鐵的 你們是答應說你們要去評估 你點頭我們有做過評估就是說就技術上 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結束了"},{"start":448.789,"end":463.778,"text":"之前我們的高鐵的那個站的建設的計畫已經結束了建設的計畫結束了但是當時你有預留這個銜接口嘛對不對所以交通部你應該要好好的來協助啊你來自台中啊"},{"start":464.538,"end":491.854,"text":"我們都有在協助但是台中市政府該走的程序他要走台中市政府努力的在走啊所以怎麼沒有在走他要來提要求啊他努力的在走我們委員也不斷在會堪耶他的程序上必須要走所以我在這邊慎重的建起要求一定要好好協助因為現在我們知道在台中高鐵特區那裡每天塞的很嚴重對不對"},{"start":492.734,"end":518.626,"text":"每天塞得很嚴重所以最後我還是要請這個部長你如果是台中市的當時你是議員你全力的也來推動我們的捷運嘛對不對那現在你照法定規定我們的補助照分配你明年要給我們42億委員這不是照規定這完全沒有照規定這個完全沒有照規定"},{"start":519.806,"end":528.874,"text":"來你現在只有用才化法來做藉口所以你本來要給我們40%而已你現在大砍96%你中央只要給1.61%我相信如果你還是台中市議會你絕對不同意對不對所以我希望你現在更身為台中你現在更"},{"start":545.487,"end":574.14,"text":"是交通部長你更應當要支持台中的交通建設如果台中的需求是60億他只要編40億中央是20幾億結果他要求中央出40幾億如果沒有如此怎麼會有這個數字出來委員細節您都不瞭解怎麼不瞭解你好好去審思該當協助的尤其你來到台中你更應當要好好協助好不好我們都在協助好就你這句話一定要好好協助謝謝"},{"start":575.067,"end":575.088,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1124,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時47分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。臺鐵員工被攻擊的事件頻傳，被打、被辱罵、被施壓，甚至被掐脖子，在文明國家發生這樣的事件實在是一個恥辱。為什麼我們看不到改變呢？就我們看到的數字，這些事件並沒有減少，尤其在這半年當中，有七成是這樣的攻擊事件。孟楷召委非常關心這個議題，所以去年我們一起開過記者會，也提出方案希望政府精進。","對於臺鐵的站務人員、基層員工執勤時一再受到恐嚇、攻擊，都沒有提出有效的方案，讓問題一直反覆重演，所以本席要請教，你們研議到今天，你們認為重複、接連發生的原因是什麼？請說明。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，如果旅客做這樣不理性的事情，臺鐵公司一定會站在員工的立場保護員工。有幾個方面，在法律的追訴方面，公司已經有專案，會協助員工從法律方面訴求，保護自己的權益，這是一個方面。第二，我們也有和鐵路警察溝通，拜託他們協助治安方面，因為臺鐵公司負責營運，治安的部分還是要拜託鐵路警察協助。另外，也有員工在討論要不要裝密錄器保護員工，但是現在有一些員工覺得不需要，這個部分我們還在溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你們之前在討論的，但是我們認為，絕不允許任何人遭受這樣的職場對待，這個方向是一致的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以過去有發密錄器、增派警察巡邏及保全人力等等SOP流程。但是本席要請教，你們說要請鐵路警察協助，進度到底如何？因為我們是結果論，我們不希望看到這個事件一而再、再而三的發生。比如說增加警察的據點、臺鐵聘請保全人員，可以迅速地對治安的死角有所幫助，這些啟動你們是不是有在檢討呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是。跟委員報告，這些都有在檢討，爭取……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那什麼時候要出來呢？"],["陳部長世凱：請董事長回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為數字告訴我們，它沒有減少，反而增加。你們說都有在檢討，你們的精進方案什麼時候會出來呢？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，跟鐵警之間的聯繫，我們已經有一個共識，就是鐵警用跨域的方式，來增加見警率。已經從5月開始執行了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那請你們把精進的方案書面資料給本席。"],["鄭董事長光遠：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以結論是，今天委員都有提出對於鐵路法的修法，針對旅客暴力攻擊重罰，新增強暴、脅迫、恐嚇或其他非法的方法，我們要新增徒刑跟罰金，這個方向部長你是不是同意？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，如果是可以保護員工的方向，我都會支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你都會同意？那請教……"],["陳部長世凱：但是在法制上面的強度到哪裡，還要跟我們法制單位來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再討論？所以方向一致。那請教，行政院會有版本嗎？你會有院版嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前沒有研議版本，還沒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看！你們為什麼不研議？民眾這麼迫切關注，所以你必須要去研議，這點是本席跟你建議的。","接下來，本席要跟你討論的是，有關臺中高鐵特區，114年1月8號我在這裡有質詢，我說我們高鐵增加北站，就是北臺中的站。當時次長到這邊來質詢，他同意要去評估，現在評估的進度怎麼樣呢？"],["陳部長世凱：臺中的北站？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，評估的進度如何呢？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，臺中高鐵的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們是答應說你們要去評估。你點頭？好。"],["楊局長正君：是，我們有做過評估，就技術上來說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：評估方向出來了嗎？"],["楊局長正君：就技術上來說，目前要在高鐵營運中的路線新增車站，有系統上技術的困難。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係！本席絕對會再追蹤我們所提出的方案。你們評估出來，不管如何應該要將你們的評估報告給我們。"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼不給呢？你們什麼時候評估出來？評估出來了嗎？"],["楊局長正君：我有看過這個報告，我確認一下有沒有送到委員辦公室。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是正式在交通委員會耶！評估了沒有？出來了沒有？"],["楊局長正君：有，有評估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你把評估的書面資料給本席，請你們也要好好努力。"],["楊局長正君：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要問部長，一年有2,700萬人次在臺中站進出，交通部針對國1新增匝道連接高鐵特區，你們怎麼協助呢？"],["陳部長世凱：目前可行性研究的費用，我們有請鐵道局跟當時有標到要發展這個地區的廠商補助給臺中市，目前也已經補助給它。是多少錢？七百多萬，還是？"],["楊局長正君：廠商補助700萬元給臺中市政府做整體規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：700萬元給臺中市政府。"],["楊局長正君：國1新增匝道部分是由鐵道局補助給臺中市政府，他們也已經在另案辦理可行性研究評估當中，預計下個月就可以提出報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下個月提出報告？因為……"],["楊局長正君：臺中市政府提報告。"],["陳部長世凱：臺中市政府要提出報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你也是臺中來的，你也擔任過我們的市議員。高鐵特區是鐵道局，臺中市政府努力地在協助，所以我要求交通部一定好好地來努力……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是這個樣子的！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，本席要跟你討論台74線預留銜接匝道的部分。當時在興建的時候，74線已經有預留銜接口，但現在每天都在塞。你當時就已經有預留了，你應該就不用再評估啦！就趕快、迅速加強它的改善措施啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時的計畫已經結束了，所以現在臺中市政府必須提出它的評估需求。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說它的什麼結束了？"],["陳部長世凱：之前我們高鐵站的建設計畫已經結束了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：建設的計畫結束了，但是當時你有預留銜接口嘛！對不對？所以交通部應該要好好地來協助啊！你來自臺中啊！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都有在協助，但是臺中市政府該走的程序要走，不可能它該走的程序不……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺中市政府努力地在走啊！"],["陳部長世凱：它沒有在走啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼沒有在走！"],["陳部長世凱：它要來提要求啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它有努力地在走，我們委員也不斷在會勘耶！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：它的程序上必須要走。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我在這邊慎重地建請、要求，一定要好好協助，因為現在我們知道在臺中高鐵特區那裡每天塞得很嚴重，對不對？最後我還是要請部長協助，你當時是臺中市的議員，你也全力地在推動我們的捷運嘛！對不對？那現在你照法規規定，我們的補助照分配，你明年要給我們42億……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這不是照規定，這個完全沒有照規定！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在只有用財劃法來做藉口……"],["陳部長世凱：不是只有財劃法而已，我跟您報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你本來要給我們42億元，你現在大砍96%……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有本來要給這件事！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你中央只要給1.6億元，我相信如果你還在臺中市議會，你絕對不同意，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您知道臺中市政府跟中央的比例是怎麼分配嗎？您知道它是怎麼分配嗎？您知道比例是怎麼分配嗎？是55對45，這個您曉得嗎？您大概不曉得吧！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在是交通部長，你更應當要支持臺中的交通建設……"],["陳部長世凱：如果臺中的需求是60億元，它自己要編40億元，中央是二十幾億，結果它要求中央要出四十幾億，這是不公平的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你好好去省思！如果沒有如此，怎麼會有這個數字出來？所以，請部長你好好……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，細節你都不了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼不了解！你好好去省思，尤其你來自臺中，該當協助的你更應當要好好協助，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都在協助啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就你這句話，一定要好好協助，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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是不是請交通部陳部長陳部長請"},{"start":11.83,"end":39.078,"text":"委員好 部長您好 辛苦了那第一個問題要請教 就是說台日韓基本上已經形成一日生活圈不管是經濟啦 或者觀光啦 或者甚至安全啦東北亞變成一個命運共同體 也是生活圈的概念你到首爾 高雄飛去大概兩個小時有時候一個半小時就跟我從高雄搭高鐵來台北一樣所以日本大概是台灣最喜歡去的國家"},{"start":39.978,"end":64.545,"text":"大概每年大概有六七百萬嘛日本也很喜歡來台灣台灣到韓國也大概一百多萬一百二十幾萬那南韓疫情之前也是一百二十幾萬現在大概一百萬左右你看一下日本的做法日本在所有的公共交通運輸工具不管是新幹線或者是地方的這些鐵路或者是巴士基本上施予公共"},{"start":65.967,"end":80.594,"text":"一定有日語日語之後就是英文英文之後就是中文中文就是韓語幾乎不是只有東京都而已幾乎全國都是這樣做我就觀察很多小到地方的巴士都是用韓語"},{"start":82.372,"end":101.509,"text":"所以我們未來可以更友善的環境如果我們能夠很方便的讓韓國旅客來看到這個交通運輸工具都是有韓文標誌他們也行得比較安心也比較方便所以未來可不可以去檢討一下最起碼你有日文你有韓文日本做得到我們也應該可以做得到"},{"start":102.21,"end":120.488,"text":"是我們一些重要的交通運具上面我們來研議看可不可以來增加日文跟韓文因為目前看起來只有中文跟英文那標誌上如果可以再增加的話他們就是日文韓文在每個觀光景點都有不僅是公共交通運輸工具最起碼我們重新從我們的高鐵到台鐵"},{"start":122.403,"end":151.763,"text":"或者長途的運輸巴士 我們是不是可以考量可以 我們來研議看看 那另外就是針對觀光景點 觀光旅客比較會去的地方 日韓客人比較會去的地方 我們也會來增加那另外就是說這個當然我一直希望說 從消防機場出發的這個國際航線比較多的大型飛機因為這個運量的關係 那未來如果新的大型客機交貨的時候 是不是可以優先配置給高雄消防機場"},{"start":152.563,"end":181.078,"text":"因為香港機場目前最大的主力主要的力量主力機型是A330一台就華航其他就是大概737、800或者是這個NEO321都是小型飛機大部分都是737比較多一樣從香港到成田香港到首爾這個跟從這個松山或者從桃園飛到首爾它的價錢是一樣的"},{"start":182.743,"end":197.942,"text":"是有時候會比較貴是所以是不是有沒有可能研究一下我建議是不是能夠與差別為虞你如果在用比較舊的機型在執行運載任務的時候是不是價錢方面是不是能夠有一些彈性"},{"start":200.774,"end":223.759,"text":"這個因為它有它的商業運作的模式我也很難去因為對南部人而言我們這個一樣要花那麼多錢然後做的都是比較小的飛機但委員您在爭取的這個大的飛機我們也有拜託一些航空公司因為明年他們大概會有交機交一波我們大概就會優先拜託他們把那個大的飛機盡量往高雄機場過去"},{"start":225.399,"end":254.054,"text":"另外一個鐵路這個捷運的建設您知道這個在高雄我的選區就是捷運的紅線那紅線目前正在進行當中那第一階段已經完成現在就是這個2B 2A跟2B正在施工當中那因為這個相關的缺工缺料的問題那自來自來水管線的遷移這些問題所以他必須要延後兩年但是交通黑暗值就會"},{"start":255.375,"end":269.335,"text":"再延長兩年 我是建議會增加一些費用 因為才是收支發文法的關係 中央要有一些的負擔 需要中央協助所以當然可能今天這個發文就會到僑農部"},{"start":270.696,"end":281.17,"text":"再請陳部長 他的修正計畫我們盡量協助 讓他速度可以加快 就是說中央還要需要再給市政府協助10.55億那市政府還要負擔2.8億這部分再請這個部長能夠請 我們會來協助 另外"},{"start":288.8,"end":305.118,"text":"紫色的 紫線的這個審查的進度也希望能夠督促我們相關單位能夠盡快的把這個進度審查的時程把它縮短好 我們昨天才開過初審會議那時程我會盡量加速好 這個我想這個部長有掌握另外就是陸族車站 陸族車站當然"},{"start":305.879,"end":330.896,"text":"未來運量一定會增加因為陸足科學園區的關係雖然有未來捷運那捷運要蓋完蓋到陸足也大概也要好幾年以後那現在的陸足台鐵站那相關的樂台的整建也是我整取的也謝謝交通部的支持那現在就是說相關的這個設計包括臨時雨遮跟旅客縱線這個部分經費也沒有著落"},{"start":332.464,"end":354.17,"text":"這地方上有這個需求 就是說臨時的遮蔽的雨遮 動線相關的規劃是 這個我們請台鐵公司趕快來研議看有沒有經費可以趕快來做改善對 然後能夠及時啟動 不要到明年再啟動我們可以從原本的計畫來做調整就好了不用再啟動新的計畫 用原本的計畫來調整陸珠澍在來的部分再請部長協助 再請台鐵來協助好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1091,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時40分）感謝主席，是不是請交通部陳部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長你好，辛苦了。第一個問題要請教你，臺、日、韓基本上已經形成一日生活圈，不管是經濟，或者觀光，甚至是安全，東北亞變成一個命運共同體，也是生活圈的概念，從高雄飛去首爾大概兩個小時，有時候一個半小時，和我從高雄搭高鐵來臺北一樣。日本大概是臺灣人最喜歡去的國家，每年大概有六、七百萬人次嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，有六、七百萬人次。"],["邱委員志偉：日本人也喜歡來臺灣。臺灣人到韓國大概也有一百二十幾萬人次，疫情之前是一百二十幾萬人次，現在大概是一百萬人次左右。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你看一下日本的做法，日本所有的公共運輸工具，不管是新幹線、地方鐵路，或者是巴士，基本上是四語共構，一定有日語嘛！日語之後就是英文，英文之後就是中文，中文之後就是韓語，不是只有東京都而已，幾乎全國都這樣做，我觀察了很多地方，小到地方的巴士都有韓語。我們未來可以建構更友善的環境，如果我們能夠讓旅客很方便的辨識，例如韓國旅客看到的交通運輸工具都有韓文標示，他們也會比較安心、方便，所以未來可不可以檢討一下？最起碼要有日文、韓文，日本做得到，我們應該也可以做到。"],["陳部長世凱：是，在一些重要的交通運具上面，我們研議看看可不可以增加日文和韓文，因為目前看起來只有中文和英文，如果可以再增加辨識度的話……"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！日本已經行之有年，他們就是標示日文、韓文，每個觀光景點都有，不只是公共運輸工具。最起碼我們的高鐵、臺鐵，或者長途的運輸巴士是不是可以考量這樣做？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們來研議看看。另外就是針對觀光景點，這些觀光旅客比較會去的地方，或者日、韓客人比較會去的地方，我們也會增加。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我一直希望從小港機場出發的國際航線能有比較多的大型飛機，因為運量的關係，未來如果有新的大型客機交貨，是不是可以優先配置在高雄小港機場？因為小港機場目前最大的主力機型是A330，只有一台，是華航的，其他大概就是波音737-800，或者是A321neo，都是小型飛機，大部分都是波音737-800啦！","從小港到成田、小港到首爾，和從松山或者從桃園飛到首爾價錢是一樣的，有時候還比較貴，所以有沒有可能研究一下？我建議是不是能夠做差別費率？如果用比較舊的機型執行運載任務，價錢方面是不是能夠有些彈性？"],["陳部長世凱：因為他們有自己的商業運作模式，我們也很難去……"],["邱委員志偉：我了解。但是對南部人而言，一樣花那麼多錢，搭的卻是比較小的飛機。"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員您在爭取的大飛機，我們也有拜託一些航空公司，因為明年他們大概會有一波交機。"],["邱委員志偉：對，要交機，就是波音787啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們會優先拜託他們，儘量把大飛機往高雄機場安排。"],["邱委員志偉：是。另外是捷運的建設，在高雄，我的選區就是捷運紅線，紅線目前正在進行當中，第一階段已經完成，現在2A和2B正在施工當中，因為相關的缺工、缺料問題，以及自來水管線遷移等問題，所以它必須延後兩年，當然，交通黑暗期也會再延長兩年。因為財政收支劃分法的關係，這樣會增加一些費用，有一些負擔需要中央協助，可能今天就會發文到交通部，再請陳部長了解一下。"],["陳部長世凱：今天會發到交通部？好。關於它的修正計畫，我們會儘量協助，讓它的速度可以加快。"],["邱委員志偉：對。中央還需要再補助市政府10.55億元，市政府負擔2.8億元，這部分再請部長協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會協助。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，紫線的審查進度也希望能夠督促相關單位，儘快把審查時程縮短。"],["陳部長世凱：好。昨天才開過初審會議，我們會儘量加速時程。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這個部分部長有掌握。另外就是路竹車站，當然，未來路竹車站的運量一定會增加，因為路竹科學園區的關係，雖然未來有捷運，但是等捷運蓋到路竹大概也要好幾年以後。現在的路竹臺鐵站，相關的月台整建是我爭取的，也謝謝交通部的支持。現在就是相關的設計，包括臨時雨遮和旅客動線，這個部分的經費沒有著落啦！但地方上有這個需求，就是臨時的遮蔽雨遮、動線相關規劃，這個優化的……"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們請臺鐵公司趕快研議，看看有沒有經費可以趕快做改善。"],["邱委員志偉：對，要及時啟動，不要等到明年再啟動。"],["陳部長世凱：我們可以從原本的計畫做調整就好，不用再啟動新的計畫。"],["邱委員志偉：路竹車站的部分再請部長及臺鐵協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速"},{"start":162.387,"end":182.141,"text":"盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢"},{"start":185.354,"end":202.653,"text":"公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長"},{"start":214.633,"end":231.886,"text":"董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件"},{"start":233.714,"end":259.253,"text":"979件 沒錯 那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛 931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件 外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼 這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼 就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因"},{"start":259.793,"end":278.793,"text":"那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件 工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":279.778,"end":290.664,"text":"有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢"},{"start":291.584,"end":316.765,"text":"我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作"},{"start":317.318,"end":341.935,"text":"加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化"},{"start":342.791,"end":369.856,"text":"當然是要努力 這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好 副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外 請您說明"},{"start":373,"end":397.385,"text":"報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查"},{"start":398.84,"end":426.571,"text":"我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件"},{"start":428.892,"end":436.304,"text":"那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善"},{"start":437.148,"end":466.158,"text":"我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡"},{"start":467.808,"end":488.913,"text":"是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說"},{"start":491.293,"end":519.905,"text":"趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全"},{"start":520.678,"end":545.998,"text":"那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客"},{"start":551.144,"end":564.898,"text":"OK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處"},{"start":572.97,"end":586.996,"text":"法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1028,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時30分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好、局長好。部長、局長，根據交通部提供的資料，截至111年9月，桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有33.71%，原本核定的經費是1,047.93億元，後來修正後暴增到1,817億元，整體增加高達769.8億元。其中營建市場波動占了408億元，都市計畫和設計審議延誤占了110億元，還有平鎮站南延工程115億元等，這樣的經費膨脹幅度，幾乎是原本預算的四分之三。","部長、局長，請問這樣是不是當初工程估算不實？還是因為行政審查太慢了，所以導致成本外溢？請說明，謝謝。"],["楊局長正君：我想這兩年大部分的軌道建設都有類似的調整，最主要因素當然是市場缺工和缺料，導致整個經費增加。剛剛委員也有特別提到，因為桃地這個計畫還增加了所謂的平鎮段南延。還有另外一個，就是在都設審的過程當中，把原來規劃的一些地面停車場改設為地下，所以增加建造的成本。"],["邱委員若華：局長，桃園段的總標案數有30標，目前僅完成15標，剩餘的標案要等修正計畫核定之後才能辦理，這樣的行政時程，您認為合理嗎？"],["楊局長正君：目前我們還是按照原來的修正，就是122年第一階段通車，如果能夠順利爭取到行政院核定的話。其實看到的這些標案數，現在主要是差三個主體工程標，其他十幾個標都是搭配的，所謂的系統標或者後續的軌道、機電等等問題，我們會儘快處理。"],["邱委員若華：局長，本席也有發現，計畫是卡在中央和地方的協調嘛！部長，國發會原則上已經同意簽陳行政院，本席想要和您確認，為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢？"],["陳部長世凱：因為要等行政院整體核定。我們也在爭取當中，也會和行政院溝通儘量加速。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。這不只是工程的延宕，交通部是否可以比照一個做法，例如捷運的重大工程都有專案管理辦公室，鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理？"],["陳部長世凱：我們每個案子應該都是這樣。"],["楊局長正君：其實我們自己有做內部管理，每一個標案都有……"],["邱委員若華：你們有做內部管理，多久公開一次呢？"],["陳部長世凱：公開進度還是……"],["邱委員若華：就是公開進度和預算。"],["楊局長正君：進度的部分，我們每個月都在做更新。"],["邱委員若華：每個月都有更新？公布在哪裡？"],["楊局長正君：在我們局的官網。"],["邱委員若華：官網上面可以查到？OK，好，謝謝局長，局長先請回。請臺鐵鄭董事長。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：董事長好。根據臺鐵114年度的安全管理報告，您知道去年整年大約發生多少起行車事故嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：行車事故，我們去年……"],["邱委員若華：包括行車異常的事件。"],["鄭董事長光遠：大大小小總共是979件。"],["邱委員若華：979件，沒錯。其中行車事故占48件，931件是行車異常事件，比112年上升27%，其中車輛故障268件，運轉和保安裝置故障175件，外物入侵是81件。這代表什麼？這顯示內部的維修和巡檢能力下降，還有更關鍵的是什麼？就是人為操作錯誤，設備老化也是原因之一，這和臺鐵當初說要公司化的初衷、要提升管理效率，其實是背道而馳的。","董事長，您知道嗎？在勞動條件的部分，工會也有統計，有三成員工每個月都加班超過45小時，也出現連續執勤14小時以上的案例。您知道這樣的狀況嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：有的，我們有幾件是這樣，去年和今年都有這樣的情況。"],["邱委員若華：是不是可以請董事長說明，為什麼臺鐵公司化後勞動條件不但沒有改善，反而惡化了呢？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我想這是因為基層主管的督導並不是很確實，同仁也沒有這樣的sense，所以才會有違反勞動條件的情況。現在我們已經積極要求改善這樣的情況，除了向同仁宣導以外，也加強稽核的工作。"],["邱委員若華：加強稽核的工作？臺鐵公司的報告也有提到，113年度你們有辦理43場安全稽核，結案率是73%，也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善，什麼時候可以改善？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們很努力在做改善的工作，年底前我們會在稽核方面做更多強化。"],["邱委員若華：當然要努力啊！請勞動部的副署長。"],["主席：請副署長。"],["邱委員若華：副署長好。副署長，勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外？請您說明。"],["李副署長文進：鐵道運輸業也有列入排檢的對象，這三年針對臺鐵實施勞動檢查，大概有229場，總共有22場違反，違反率大概是9.68%，累計的裁罰……"],["邱委員若華：臺鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險事業名單裡面？"],["李副署長文進：有。"],["邱委員若華：你們多久稽查一次？"],["李副署長文進：我們檢查機構會依照風險的頻率去做排檢。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝副署長的說明。再來，董事長，我現在要和您討論月台的防護設施嚴重落後的問題，而且你們的AI監控誤判率高，旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣。在你們的安全報告中，全國242個車站，平交道監視器和防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成，近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件，平均算起來每週都超過一起。你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%，你們要怎麼改善？"],["鄭董事長光遠：AI防護主要是在邊坡這個部分，因為去年這個系統還是在測試之中，所以有很多漏洞，但是現在防護的部分已經做好，大概有99.5%以上的可靠度。"],["邱委員若華：所以如果AI誤判，導致行車事故或是旅客受傷，這責任歸屬為何？是廠商、站務員？還是交通部臺鐵公司？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我想應該是歸公司，再怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分。以這次大石頭滾落打掉AI防護系統纜線為例，我們除了趕快恢復這個系統以外，也馬上做緊急處置，在這個情況之下，我們會馬上要求車輛減速慢行。"],["邱委員若華：另外請教董事長，你們只有兩個站務員監控旅客的安全，這樣的配置是依據安全的評估？還是人力成本的考量？"],["鄭董事長光遠：請問兩個監護人員是什麼意思？"],["邱委員若華：就是在各大車站的高峰時段，每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全。"],["鄭董事長光遠：那是在臺北站。"],["邱委員若華：是在臺北站？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。"],["邱委員若華：只有兩名，這樣人力夠嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：本來是三名啦！因為最近有一位到臺北車站一樓支援，11月份以後我們會把人力補齊。"],["邱委員若華：11月份以後會補齊？"],["鄭董事長光遠：11月1日會補齊。"],["邱委員若華：所以你們有信心11月份以後，這一批招聘……"],["鄭董事長光遠：已經招了。"],["邱委員若華：已經招了？"],["鄭董事長光遠：對，11月會補齊，保全人員是以專責的方式hire。"],["邱委員若華：最後再請教董事長，你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計畫，115年底前會完成30處高旅運車站防護系統建置，這30處，你們有把握115年可以完成嗎？"],["陳副總經理宗宏：這部分我們會按照計畫進行，其他詳細的進度會再向委員說明。"],["邱委員若華：OK！也請臺鐵公司改善AI系統誤判率的問題，以保障乘客的安全，謝謝董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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陳部長跟楊局長請台南剃漏地下化你知不知道頭高要做多久啊對 局長"},{"start":29.05,"end":37.014,"text":"1999年 年前做議長的時候就下定了後到老條件做行政議長再度下定1991年台南市開始推動了1991年"},{"start":58.14,"end":69.283,"text":"那麼到落實狀的時候為了剔弱當宜他怕去氣自己各個支撲要求獨發局一個一個去拜訪所以落當的抗爭那麼進行因為環境差異分析這個不做沿途互動這就是落實狀的進行的起點"},{"start":88.956,"end":115.86,"text":"那麼中盛開工了,有什麼時候要完工?現在我們有的民營可以通車,整體完工還要分兩階段明年是第一階段下地台南車站通車那另外新增的車站呢,會在後面一一八年跟一一九年來分別啟用董事長你知道嗎?"},{"start":122.948,"end":130.331,"text":"永康目前都還在程序當中是可行性研究核定但是進入中規計畫就是設計跟這個規劃的部分我們希望不要這麼久"},{"start":137.813,"end":161.003,"text":"保證要有霹靂我是都給你額外的給你報告我們當時台南的地下化的過程當中您剛講的歷史是確實有發生但有一些是因為我們挖到了歷史古蹟那如果永康這一段沒有挖到歷史古蹟我們當然就可以遭監禁你現在鐵路橋到寶雄 壽雄這個台南火車站你們都賠多少錢有賠款嗎"},{"start":166.789,"end":179.481,"text":"多少 現在我手上沒有掌握這個我等一下再瞭解一下 你仲裁的時候輸嘛 總共賠多少錢台南車站的收戶"},{"start":183.208,"end":210.387,"text":"不知道不知道 我們手上現在沒有掌握資料這樣喔還是是台鐵公司不斷賠錢 再輸港幣延長我們是不是會去負責我們鐵路地下化的市場延誤這部分當然已經解決了我們就是照現在剛剛局長所報告的那個時程我們就照那個下去趕工"},{"start":211.471,"end":240.476,"text":"所以本席在這裡就是要跟你說 鐵路局在這個鐵路當中對台南市是最重要的我也不是在怪老總統 冬季市的老市長空檔六檔你覺得做一個什麼事可以讓一個工廠把我們空檔六檔那個都不是空轉 都是有進度在進行他在做的是你在台中做議員 你不是在台南"},{"start":241.943,"end":255.468,"text":"我請問老闆,三、四年來第一任,你有在台南市做什麼建設嗎?他認不出來,我說你認了,你只要做一間建設,我才是市長議員人家說沒有啦,人家是客氣啦,不可以讓你為難結果到四年到一年任的時候"},{"start":265.612,"end":288.865,"text":"一直第二輪的九七天的跟台南的鄉親說什麼?各位市民鄉親,我是熱情的過去的四年我都在幾月,未來的四年,台南的大進步所以四年的幾月,一樣嘛,鐵路地下化,六年的空檔所以本席今天要跟你說的就是說,英雄"},{"start":290.853,"end":316.256,"text":"會變化 生氣會變化 不能讓我們再來一個二十幾年這樣對台南市完全沒有幫忙台南市正在二十七 三十七的封合這條鐵路起來所有的這邊高度尤其是在市內高通最繁忙這個地方 能讓台南市一個特別 中性"},{"start":317.762,"end":323.085,"text":"那麼這個歷代這麼長變成有20公里的歷代這是可以讓大台南做一個新的城市整個因為這是一個故鄉條件不像你們台中和高雄這麼好"},{"start":337.048,"end":357.345,"text":"所以 部長你起來告訴我 本席請教你這件案件可以加速進行我們會加速進行永康的這個地下化跟您所提到的後面那一段的高架化我們都會加速進行因為我看林委員所有台南市的建設差不多都會進出的這牽棒作者都會進出 但是這條進出不對這條也本席來進出 你看"},{"start":361.442,"end":387.003,"text":"很多委員大家都一起來爭取也很感謝謝委員也很努力在爭取我今天頭一半會幫你提出不然這塊你如果今天答應我好要加速來推動我也可以拆這塊牆壁不然他拆整塊地對不對現在進步是大家共同關心看到現在的鐵路地下滑到未來這條地下高架下滑"},{"start":387.967,"end":392.927,"text":"本縣對你有過度的期待 好不好 我們交通部會努力謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":991,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時24分）主席，我請部長跟鐵路局。"],["主席：請陳部長跟楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：部長，臺南鐵路地下化工程你知不知道從頭到尾做多久？"],["楊局長正君：應該快20年。"],["陳部長世凱：十幾年了。"],["謝委員龍介：十幾年？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["謝委員龍介：更久。"],["陳部長世凱：更久？"],["謝委員龍介：從1999年，就是連戰當院長的時候就核定了，後來到劉兆玄當行政院長，再度核定。1991年臺南市開始推動，到賴市長的時候，為了鐵路東移，他怕「缺角」，決定要各個擊破，要求都發局一個一個去拜訪拆遷戶，所以造成6年的空轉，那之前因為環境差異分析沒有做，延宕5年，這是在賴市長之前的市長決定的，總算開工了，預計什麼時候要完工？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在我們預定明年可以通車，整體完工要分兩階段，明年是第一階段下地、臺南車站通車，另外新增的車站會在118年跟119年分別啟用。"],["謝委員龍介：董事長，你坐。","永康到新市呢？到善化呢？你們核定了嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：永康的部分目前都還在程序當中，是可行性研究已核定，進入綜規計畫，就是設計跟規劃的部分……"],["謝委員龍介：會再來一個20年嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望不要這麼久。"],["謝委員龍介：部長要有魄力，我是都稱讚你。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，臺南鐵路地下化的過程當中，您剛剛講的歷史確實有發生，但有一些是因為我們挖到了歷史古蹟，如果永康這一段沒有挖到歷史古蹟，我們當然就可以照進度。"],["謝委員龍介：你說挖到歷史古蹟，現在鐵路局和包商訴訟，臺南火車站這部分，你們總共賠了多少錢？多少？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在我手上沒有掌握，這個我還要再瞭解一下。"],["謝委員龍介：你們仲裁的時候輸了，總共賠了多少錢？臺南車站的修護，知道嗎？不知道。沒關係，你說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們手上現在沒有掌握資料。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣喔？"],["陳部長世凱：還是是臺鐵的……"],["謝委員龍介：不只賠錢，還使得工程延宕，是不是會造成鐵路地下化的時程延誤？這部分當然已經解決了，錢也賠完了。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在就照剛剛局長所報告的那個時程下去趕工。"],["謝委員龍介：所以本席在這裡就是要告訴你，鐵路東移對臺南市是相當相當重要的，我們也不是在怪賴總統，也就是當時的賴市長，造成空轉6年，你想，哪一個城市可以讓一個工程空轉6年？"],["陳部長世凱：那個不是空轉，都是有進度在進行。"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼會不是空轉？你在臺中當議員，你不是在臺南。我問賴市長：「3、4年來，你第一任時，你有為臺南做什麼建設？」他答不出來。我說：「你回答，你只要做一件建設，我就辭市議員。」有人說：「沒有，人家是客氣，不要讓你為難。」結果第一任4年任期到了，他連任的時候，在第二任的就職典禮跟臺南的鄉親說什麼？他說：「各位市民鄉親，我是賴清德，過去的4年我都在規劃。未來的4年，臺南會大進步。」4年的規劃也是一樣，鐵路地下化6年空轉，所以我今天要跟你說的就是永康的鐵路地下化，新市、善化的鐵路高架化，不要讓我們再來一個二十幾年，這對臺南市完全沒有幫忙。臺南市身為直轄市，這條鐵路建設起來，可以提高城市縫合，連結所有平交道，尤其是市內交通最繁忙的地方，可以讓臺南市蛻變、重生，有20公里的綠帶，這條綠帶這麼長，可以給大臺南做一個新的城市規劃，因為這是一個古城，條件不像你們臺中和高雄這麼好，所以部長，本席請教你，這個建設可以加速進行嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會加速進行。永康的鐵路地下化跟您所提到的後面那一段的高架化，我們都會加速進行。"],["謝委員龍介：因為我看林委員寫的，所有臺南市的建設差不多都是他爭取的，看板上寫的建設都是他爭取的，但是這個沒有爭取到，這個換本席來爭取，你覺得如何？"],["陳部長世凱：很多委員一起爭取啦！也很感謝謝委員，你也很努力在爭取。"],["謝委員龍介：我今天是第一次向你提出，如果你今天答應我要加速推動，我也可以掛一塊看板啊！不然他掛了一千多塊看板，對不對？城市進步是大家共同關心的，現在的鐵路地下化和未來這條地下高架化，本席對你有高度的期待。好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：交通部會努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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13:02:30","影片長度":"00:19:46","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:42:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T13:02:30+08:00","duration":1186,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.07284375,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.72159375,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.36659375,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.06221875,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.90596875,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.074718750000002,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.317218750000002,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.57596875,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.13221875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.38659375,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.15409375,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.75721875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.94284375000001,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.88784375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.59221875,"end":82.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.48221875,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.85346875,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.91659375,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.56596875000001,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.06784375000001,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.76784375000001,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.94909375,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.21034375,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.62534375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":112.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.63784375,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.20471875,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.98409375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":148.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.82596875000002,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.13284375,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.25909375,"end":160.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.57534375,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.72721875000002,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.79471875000002,"end":168.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.94096875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.33159375000002,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.36909375000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.58784375000002,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.31721875000002,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.50221875000003,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.36659375000002,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.98721875,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.03659375,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.30659375000002,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.91409375,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.4528437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下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在 我想還是有人多忙點"},{"start":22.333,"end":48.36,"text":"我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲"},{"start":49.625,"end":76.943,"text":"中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶 雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化 清除掉這是不是真的"},{"start":77.996,"end":85.029,"text":"部長有掌握嗎 這個要請農業部他們那個 防潔局那就請部長 請陳部長這夠有屬性 這應該屬性吧"},{"start":91.199,"end":110.83,"text":"對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了"},{"start":112.777,"end":124.884,"text":"對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對"},{"start":139.005,"end":148.276,"text":"他佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系"},{"start":150.871,"end":170.444,"text":"怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的"},{"start":171.024,"end":198.392,"text":"的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":201.557,"end":225.567,"text":"教他們如何先移除雜物 然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成 完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消"},{"start":226.568,"end":243.062,"text":"所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛"},{"start":244.402,"end":267.107,"text":"這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理"},{"start":267.267,"end":291.029,"text":"我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對"},{"start":292.97,"end":313.661,"text":"就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後"},{"start":317.642,"end":341.924,"text":"因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀"},{"start":344.998,"end":370.209,"text":"報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度"},{"start":371.61,"end":389.876,"text":"那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這裡都有蟲嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果從同意讓他們 就是就地掩埋"},{"start":391.461,"end":415.37,"text":"因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大 幾十米"},{"start":419.672,"end":440.527,"text":"幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理"},{"start":442.248,"end":443.028,"text":"所以環境部"},{"start":463.973,"end":484.22,"text":"不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊"},{"start":485.922,"end":503.785,"text":"這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達"},{"start":504.806,"end":533.38,"text":"廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那 我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化"},{"start":536.374,"end":561.855,"text":"跟委員報告齁 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦"},{"start":565.296,"end":587.765,"text":"所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要"},{"start":588.985,"end":607.308,"text":"要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的"},{"start":607.748,"end":627.432,"text":"所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的"},{"start":629.893,"end":654.913,"text":"我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙"},{"start":655.646,"end":681.465,"text":"我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來"},{"start":682.305,"end":710.127,"text":"你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形"},{"start":710.885,"end":737.563,"text":"他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已 環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起"},{"start":738.703,"end":760.25,"text":"取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題"},{"start":763.331,"end":791.499,"text":"有很多事情啦是 因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度 很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經 我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不 這代表我們很密切啦"},{"start":793.306,"end":814.465,"text":"就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是"},{"start":816.146,"end":835.694,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎"},{"start":838.803,"end":845.724,"text":"土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣"},{"start":869.24,"end":896.575,"text":"這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人 合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然"},{"start":897.475,"end":906.631,"text":"我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎"},{"start":908.839,"end":927.829,"text":"這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都健康 健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的 差不多跟健康差六個 又加六個你們總共加起來是 還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的 還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":928.749,"end":953.424,"text":"所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好 可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位"},{"start":955.386,"end":962.772,"text":"我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長"},{"start":964.287,"end":983.87,"text":"5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應"},{"start":985.762,"end":1014.861,"text":"那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛 當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動 保價"},{"start":1016.042,"end":1025.275,"text":"要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 肉肉飯訂就對了"},{"start":1029.192,"end":1054.872,"text":"我跟委員報告 您講的這七項本身那大致上 應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的 但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對 這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說 你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話 這個會來處理那解禁的部分 我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個"},{"start":1056.893,"end":1070.172,"text":"進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁"},{"start":1071.949,"end":1088.079,"text":"小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":1088.499,"end":1100.649,"text":"因為葡萄園很清楚 消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的"},{"start":1104.412,"end":1127.132,"text":"會基建大廈啦 基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套"},{"start":1128.193,"end":1140.606,"text":"來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這地方的配套"},{"start":1152.369,"end":1171.696,"text":"我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節"},{"start":1174.038,"end":1184.45,"text":"好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 部長辛苦謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時42分）謝謝主席，先請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長辛苦了，從一早備詢到現在，但我想還是有很多盲點，我聽起來的感覺是這樣。我簡單講，27日的時候，這個被發現有非洲豬瘟的養豬場，再驗出兩處環境病毒顯示陽性，臺中市政府又匆匆忙忙去加強消毒，這種事一再發生，實在讓人感到非常憤怒。我覺得這部分要澈底要求，甚至是強力介入，因為清消不是兒戲嘛！中央應該要強力接管。","昨天中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了協會幹部，代表各縣市的豬農來拜訪，不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關同仁，又特別指出，這是他們公開講的喔！在案場中，像水桶、雨鞋等器具、物品都還留在現場，沒有立即焚化、清除。這是不是真的？部長有掌握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要請農業部防檢署說明。"],["劉委員建國：請陳部長。這件事屬實嗎？應該屬實吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是事實。我們認為第一階段疫場消毒是最重要的，但是他們並沒有落實消毒這個部分，因為照現在的規定，這些東西都要銷毀，所以我們也要求市政府要儘速再次消毒、再次檢查。"],["劉委員建國：這件事是20日發生的，對不對？昨天潘理事長到國會殿堂拜會相關黨團，就是為了因應整個養豬產業受到的後續衝擊，他們還發覺這個問題並公開訴諸媒體。我記得臺中養的豬隻數量好像是八萬多頭，對不對？他們占的全國比例是非常少的，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，那邊有一所大學，國立中興大學也有畜牧系，怎麼會讓這種事情一而再、再而三的發生？部長要不要請中興大學畜牧系過去協助他們？不然大家會疲於奔命做相關因應。"],["陳部長駿季：臺中市政府這次疫調有一些疑慮，我們也特別請專家會議小組的老師或成員協助他們進行必要的疫調，這個部分我們都做了。我們為了搶時間，可能要有另外一個作為，要把必須釐清的部分趕快釐清，這個部分我們會處理。"],["劉委員建國：儘速做疫調是基本的。剛剛的防疫記者會，中央的後勤組還在教臺中市政府如何做快速清消，你們有掌握嗎？就是教他們如何先移除雜物，然後由上而下的清消。"],["陳部長駿季：你剛才一開始出示的照片，就是我們認為他們已經完成完整的清消，接著做第二輪的環境檢測，結果一開門就發現裡面亂七八糟，沒有做好完整的清消，所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！部長，所以你自己答復時就講的很清楚嘛！第一次的清消已經完成了，代表第一次的清消雖然完成，但是不完整嘛！應該是這麼說。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！所以昨天27日，才有勞潘連周理事長來國會殿堂，還特別提到這個事情嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：不應該是這個樣子啊！顯然轄區內養了八萬多頭豬隻的臺中市政府，在管理整個畜牧場時有很嚴重的問題存在嘛！遇到這種事情該做的緊急因應，連清消到現在都沒有辦法做的非常澈底嘛！這時候中央不強力介入，還要待何時？還要用什麼方式去處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我們今天就會有一些作為，會更快速的處理，因為我們在跟時間賽跑，所以今天應該就會有所作為，也要更積極去了解。"],["劉委員建國：我們就是在跟時間賽跑，本來應該完整的清消，但是卻清消不完全，不應該容許這樣的事情發生啊！"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不容許啦！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！但是就是發生了，所以中央必須強力介入，講白一點就是接管嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。我們今天會比較強力去處理疫調的相關工作，包括和這個案場所有的關聯和調查，我們今天就會處理。"],["劉委員建國：好。部長先請回，好不好？我先針對環境部討論。剛剛是針對清消，因為彭部長剛才有答復幾個問題，24日的時候，臺中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆肥的方法，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：在南屯的文山掩埋場，后里、沙鹿、霧峰等地設置廚餘緊急堆肥地點，我們當然是從媒體報導看到照片、影片，臺中市政府就是挖一個洞，然後把廚餘往裡面倒，這個叫做堆肥？"],["彭部長啓明：這是不可以的。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他們，我們副署長也有到現場去看。"],["劉委員建國：中央怎麼容許讓這種事情一再發生？堆肥有相關的基本規範，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：堆肥場的基礎結構必須是防腐、抗蝕材料的表面，地表要有防護以及污染防治設備，另外堆肥的中心溫度必須在45度到70度之間，還要控制在50度以上至少7天，以有效殺死蟲卵、病菌，達到殺菌的效果。沒有錯吧？這邊都有寫嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒錯，對。"],["劉委員建國：但他們都沒有這樣做嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：副署長下去看了之後，結果怎麼樣？結果就是同意讓他們就地掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：因為他們說那是堆肥場啦！他們是做堆肥。可是他們在掩埋場裡面做堆肥，不符合委員提到的這個標準，所以我們要求他們改善。"],["劉委員建國：就是胡搞瞎搞嘛！對不對？如果依照環境部的標準，是要以10公尺乘以10公尺的掩埋坑進行掩埋，且廚餘每日倒入深度0.5公尺就必須覆土，臺中市的坑有10公尺乘以10公尺嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：很大，有好幾十米。"],["劉委員建國：有幾十米！這樣就是不符合標準啊！在不符合標準的狀況下，副署長下去看了之後是做什麼樣的督導？要求他們怎麼做立即改善？照規定是10公尺乘以10公尺，現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米，這麼大的場域並不符合你們的規範，你們應該怎麼處理？"],["林副署長左祥：那天我有下去看，主要是因為他們說是堆肥，但是因為不符合我們堆肥場的規範，所以他們同意改為掩埋。如果是掩埋，昨天我們也有同仁下去查核，他們也是不符合掩埋的規範，所以我們也請他們要做改善。"],["劉委員建國：所以如果環境部不直接進駐，直接強力督促、督導，這件事情會從堆肥變掩埋，掩埋又變成焚化，是一日三變？還是幾天變一次？環境部扮演的角色又是什麼？我覺得很納悶，這樣就是有問題啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們是督導的機關，他……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們是督導機關，但這樣就是有督不導啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們希望他們改善。"],["劉委員建國：有督？也導了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望他們改善。甚至如果你們這個部分沒有辦法做好，是不是需要我們幫忙？這一點我們也有主動向他們表達。"],["劉委員建國：廚餘含水量高，這點我們都很清楚嘛！如果用焚化的方式，可能對焚化爐造成傷害，甚至是焚化不完全，溫度可能會下降到百度以上，這些都不一定啦！我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許臺中市政府做這樣的廚餘處置方式，一下子堆肥，一下子掩埋，一下子要送到焚化爐焚化？"],["林副署長左祥：送到掩埋場或是焚化場都是一個緊急措施啦！因為現在臺中市的推肥場量能也不夠，所以才用這樣的緊急方式處置，這是短期的，長期應該就是朝比較正常的管道處理。"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道是短期啊！就是緊急應變嘛！對不對？就是短期再加上緊急應變，但是他們的短期緊急應變，這7天是花樣百出，搞的非常複雜。所以剛剛有幾個委員提問，包含執政黨的委員，都對環境部有不一樣的要求和看法嘛！所以我才在想，你們還要讓他們繼續這樣下去嗎？連清消、廚餘的緊急應變處置方式，都可以在7天內有這麼多變化。部長，我覺得你可能要承擔起更大的責任，不然這個事情……"],["彭部長啓明：也謝謝委員的建議，我們的確是在思考這個問題，他們的方法或量能是不是有一些狀況。但是也要向委員報告，因為包含掩埋措施或是各種機具，都是地方政府的職責，我今天早上也特別請署長到臺中，希望可以和他們協商一下，到底他們需要什麼樣的幫忙？我們要如何幫忙他們解決這次的問題？我們會主動去問，希望可以改善。"],["劉委員建國：麻煩啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：會的。"],["劉委員建國：應該是由副署長直接進駐這個地方，不用回來備詢，我講真的！不然明天可能又有什麼事情發生，你還是要再下去。"],["彭部長啓明：是。因為像我們在花蓮也有這樣的經驗，基本上都是第一線在處理，可是臺中不一樣，他們的掩埋場及各種設施都是環保局直接處理，我們到底可以協助、幫忙多少？在法規上面，我們還要再確認一下，但我們的確有在思考這個事情，就是如何幫臺中市民的忙。"],["劉委員建國：對不起，部長，可能要請你修正你的說法，這不叫幫忙，因為這種事情如果再讓它擴大傷害，我想只要是政府單位，沒有人可以推卸這樣的責任，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我希望該主動、該積極介入的，中央應該承擔起更大的責任，要去面對這個事情，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是，好。"],["劉委員建國：再來，2018年全球爆發非洲豬瘟，臺灣有些地方是禁廚餘養豬啦！但是禁廚餘養豬，必須在一定程度的配套和條件之下才有辦法做。我們要講永續，我們要講循環，每一個環節都必須有一定的條件和建置嘛！你看日本，剛剛很多委員都講到日本，看看日本歷年食品業廢棄物的再利用情形，他們還訂了一套法律叫食品回收法，這個事情怎麼會只有農業部去取經而已，環境部為什麼不用去？","日本食品回收法是農林水產省與環境省跨部會共同主責，他們建立一個非常嚴謹的制度落實食品回收，並且製成安全優質的畜牧飼料。所以我覺得環境部是不是應該和農業部一起取經、研究，透過法律制定相關制度？部長，可不可以？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，可以。疫情開始的第一天，清晨時陳部長就打電話給我，我和他每天都打十幾通電話，我和他們的聯繫非常暢通，也會協助處理，我相信環境部和農業部會鼎力合作解決這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：如果你們一天打十幾通電話，事情都不用做了，這樣也很辛苦。"],["彭部長啓明：有很多事情啦！很可憐啦！"],["劉委員建國：因為部長也要接很多委員的電話，如果你們兩個又要打十幾通電話，這樣代表很多制度、很多工作都處理的不是很順利喔！不然怎麼需要打那麼多通電話？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有！因為未來的挑戰很大啦！所以我們……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們已經很忙了，但是如果你們每天還要打十多通電話，代表溝通也不是很順暢，彼此對事情的認知，可能落差也滿大的，才會一天打十多通電話。"],["彭部長啓明：不是的！這代表我們聯繫的很密切啦！"],["劉委員建國：就是密切過度了，有些事情可能就很難推動。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以這個部分一個星期內能不能給我們一份報告？當然，剛剛陳部長有講到，希望等禁運禁宰15天過後，整個疫情解除之後再來處理，但我還是希望可以加快啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：兩個禮拜，可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為兩個禮拜還在……"],["劉委員建國：三個禮拜？"],["彭部長啓明：一個月，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：你們不是聯繫的很密切？這樣有差別嗎？一個月好啦！"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們很多同事現在也很忙，一個月，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：是啦！不是只有你們很忙，大家都很忙。部長請回，一個月。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：再請陳部長，好嗎？不好意思。陳部長知道全國屠宰場現在共計幾場嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：55場，沒有記錯的話。"],["劉委員建國：包含養雞、養鴨、養鵝。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這是豬隻的部分。"],["劉委員建國：全部啦！"],["陳部長駿季：177場。"],["劉委員建國：177場嘛！對不對？114年度的時候，我們進用獸醫17人、助理14人，合計31人。但是114年離職的獸醫有11人、助理26人，合計37人，我掌握的這個數字正不正確？怎麼會這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們同仁說這個數字是正確的。"],["劉委員建國：對。怎麼會不到一年就離職11個獸醫、助理26人，合計37人。"],["陳部長駿季：這也是我們一直在為獸醫師爭取的原因，因為現在獸醫師可以去當寵物醫院的醫師，薪水相對比較高，而面對經濟動物的這些獸醫師，相對的工作比較辛苦，所以我們也一直在積極爭取他們的不開業獎金。但是顯然的，高考端是有增加啦！但是現職端的部分還是有比較高的離職率。"],["劉委員建國：這好像是逃難潮，你有這樣的感覺嗎？這很恐怖。114年度進用的人數是這樣，離開的比進用的多六人，林林總總加起來，離職的多了六人，這樣對我們的防疫及預防面可能都會是一個很大的挑戰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長是不是也在短時間內提出報告？一樣是一個月內，能不能提出相關的改善報告？可以吧？"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。我們把相關的改善和因應措施……"],["劉委員建國：我們可能要特別重視這種問題，不管是養殖場還是屠宰場，包括獸醫師等相關人員的福利，和他們一些制度上的保障。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。不只是獸醫師，其實畜牧方面的公職人員現在都很怕進到公職單位，我想這是一個系統性的問題，我們必須嚴肅面對啦！"],["劉委員建國：好。我最後再請教部長，原本禁運禁宰5天再延10天，一定會造成整個養豬鏈很大的衝擊嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是，對。"],["劉委員建國：昨天我們有和司長等相關農政單位的長官開過會，我們也有適時反映，包含潘理事長都來了嘛！也特別提出一些反映意見，我們知道已經有研擬一些配套因應。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：除了這幾項，你看還有什麼不足之處？就是禁運禁宰期間的飼料補助，停宰期間屠宰線租金，停宰期間的人事及勞務費用，相關的攤商人員收入損失，還有在這期間死亡的豬隻補貼。15日之後如果順利解禁，到時這15天禁運禁宰的豬一口氣釋出，當然這是不可能啦！這樣也會造成價格波動，保價的部分要怎麼調節和因應？還有使用豬肉的小吃攤商，這應該是屬於經濟部的業務，例如肉雞、爌肉飯、滷肉飯等等。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，您講的這7項本身大致上……"],["劉委員建國：應該是不只啦，應該不只啦！"],["陳部長駿季：大致上跟我們的……但是這邊要稍微說明，在這段時間死亡豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦，這個前提到時候我們會有方案出來，不是只要有豬隻死亡就給予補貼，可能有一些前提，這部分會來處理。有關解禁的部分，我們現在沒有辦法去做保價，但是我們一定是會讓進到批發市場的次序要維持，然後確保價格的穩定，以這個為目標之下去做所有可能的調度，大概會是這樣子。至於豬肉的小吃攤商這個部分現在還在討論，因為小吃攤可能有賣豬肉的、有賣雞肉的、有賣什麼的，在處理上是很難去界定，不過我想大部分委員所建議的，都在我們的方案裡面。"],["劉委員建國：部長應該很清楚嘛，畜牧司長也很清楚，那天我也特別說了，原本豬養到差不多百餘公斤就可以出豬了，對不對？現在沒辦法出豬，牠再多吃5天飼料，現在是再多吃15天飼料，豬會變得很大隻啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：變很大隻之後，住在那個環境裡面，不要說豬啦，連人也一樣的意思就對了嘛，對不對？我們會場如果人比較多，空氣污染就會提高了嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：那到時候可能會有擠壓、擠迫，豬也會因為發生躁動而生病，甚至於死亡，那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套來做因應，甚至支持這些養豬戶，對不對？然後在15天後拍賣的時候，豬已經變得不是原本一般我們在拍賣豬時特別想要選擇的段位，那個價格一定會不一樣，會往下掉嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：豬比較重了，但是價格卻掉下來就對了，這個情況要如何配套？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在現在禁運的時間會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼，然後之後出豬的時候，重量越大的單價越低，所以我們會維持一個基本的監控價，在這個監控價以下的時候，我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節，大概用這樣的方式。"],["劉委員建國：好，請部長儘量讓這些相關養豬產業的損害可以降到最低，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言，也謝謝部長的回答。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51b3dbc80a4fec58f514a9ab9b55a87a241e9be59762a4979e36b0844119b6f4c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:31:56 - 12:42:32","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:31:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:42:32+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.869093750000001,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":12.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.85534375,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.03096875,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.99721875,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":67.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.02846875,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.49659375,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.27784375000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.19596875000002,"end":240.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.56721875000002,"end":272.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.66346875,"end":272.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.13596875,"end":275.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.51534375,"end":281.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.53221875,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.60346875,"end":279.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.52721875000003,"end":280.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.11784375,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.70846875,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.33409375,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.58909375,"end":374.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.13284375,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.25784375,"end":481.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.77846875000006,"end":507.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.56346875,"end":568.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.96284375,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0265937500001,"end":599.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.6672187500001,"end":633.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.3334687500001,"end":630.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.54846875,"end":631.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.96596875,"end":632.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.40471875,"end":632.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.9697187500001,"end":636.33659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.342,"end":32.975,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 謝謝有請彭部長來 請部長部長好王委員好是在還沒有請教部長之前剛好一直提到有關廚餘機嘛事實上像大型的公務機關比如說立法院好了立法院如果有一部商用的廚餘機應該是大家會很高興"},{"start":33.995,"end":51.443,"text":"不管是立法院啊或者是行政院甚至其他的公務機關如果能夠適當的請這些部分來處理的話應該是可以讓大家集中在用餐以後這些處理能夠有好的地方來來處理那這個祖密可以幫忙反映嗎"},{"start":54.289,"end":77.185,"text":"還是我們有其他的管道也報告委員上次有委員建議說我們的廁所衛生紙不能丟那我們就有來輔導了然後現在立法院衛生紙可以丟馬桶了那可能委員提出質疑我們就協助來辦理OK 好 太好了這樣的話我相信對於處理減量會有很大的幫助"},{"start":77.805,"end":94.454,"text":"所以今天就根據召委所排的主題來跟部長討論一下我相信今天已經講了非常非常的多不過希望也能夠有機會提供一點意見再讓部長做參考第一個部分就是提升出於區劃量能跟再利用的成效"},{"start":95.695,"end":113.622,"text":"其實我們也知道過去這幾年來7年來家戶廚餘其實這個量變動並不大都維持在50萬噸左右其中就是會有40%是用來做養豬另外有45%是用來堆肥"},{"start":114.622,"end":131.691,"text":"我們看到比較好的就是從過去的很少量是用來做其他的部分再利用的地方已經增長到11.4%這部分的確我相信環境部這邊其實非常用心的在處理"},{"start":132.091,"end":145.099,"text":"那其中包括黑水盲處理的廚餘每一年去年就有1萬噸佔了整體在利用的1.9%那今天這個部長的口頭報告裡面也都講得非常清楚那其實"},{"start":146.678,"end":161.208,"text":"如果再把這個四葉廚餘再加進來的話有關於飼料化處理就從四層變成了六層那代表著說我們的四葉廚餘其實很多都會把它變成一個廚餘的部分"},{"start":162.589,"end":180.252,"text":"其實我們剛剛部長有提到這個廚餘量這麼大其實養豬除了讓豬當飼料以外很大一部分就是希望能夠讓這個在處理廚餘過程當中是一個很好的減量的一種方式這個我們也可以理解"},{"start":181.393,"end":200.913,"text":"不過如果能夠有更好的方式的話尤其如果要目標是未來不要把它當作一個出於去養豬的話可能我們很多很多的事情都要持續的來努力那去年應該說今年五月跟七月裡面我們也分別在環境部跟農業部請"},{"start":203.816,"end":225.825,"text":"兩個部會一起來努力以黑水盲來處理不管是PFAS或者是食品廢棄物處理相關的成效的部分那個時候兩個部會都有表示說依據相關的目標來持續推動政策跟鬆綁相關的法律規範請問目前兩個部會的這個"},{"start":228.526,"end":256.375,"text":"討論平台有沒有實際的鑑度那如何能夠更有效率的來促成這部分不知道部長這邊有沒有可以來做進一步說明的地方包委 因為趁這次的這個廚藝的事情我們我也主動跟陳部長說我們要加速來完成這個事情例如說如何訂定可以做當成飼料例如說他吃什麼可以變成飼料什麼這個要有一個更好的一個明確的規範我相信"},{"start":257.095,"end":284.02,"text":"我們會加速來完成這些事情因為黑水盲的確是一個很有效有潛力的一個措施啦那這個部分呢我們會再跟農業部在最後的再確認我們希望能夠樂觀啟程這個可以趕快發展起來一個月或者是到年底方便給我們報告好 我也到年底好不好因為我們最近真的很趕 了解了解好那就麻煩在年底的時候"},{"start":285.109,"end":310.182,"text":"給我們一份相關的那個研議的報告那再過來就是講到這個預防並減少食物浪費那部長一直強調這個源頭減量才是最好的選擇我相信大家都可以認同這個部分那我們有沒有什麼更具體的因應政策這邊我們看到的就是已經進入了三年的有關於一個環境教育活動"},{"start":310.922,"end":326.134,"text":"就是起始來簡除於有一個競賽叫做首席廚師競賽看起來好像辦得非常的熱絡而且它的總獎金是75萬元裡面有所謂的十大行動的理念部長不曉得有沒有去參與這樣的活動有"},{"start":329.196,"end":356.207,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為這個是一個宣導型的一個活動那我昨天也特別跟我們的主辦的這個市長討論說我們辦這個活動或是說我們國人的剩食大概量是多少有沒有一個更好的指標能夠來做確定那當然我們因為知道這個洗食跟食農教育是有關所以我也主動提出來說因為食農教育是農業部在主責未來我們希望在能夠針對這個源頭講的部分特別是食物浪費的部分"},{"start":356.827,"end":373.646,"text":"這個也是保護地球的一種方式特別是在資源匱乏的時候所以我們會更積極的來處理因為目前我必須坦誠這個是一個活動 活動型的活動鼓勵大家 但是真的減了多少的量我還不知道所以我必須要用更好的方法來解決"},{"start":374.167,"end":387.476,"text":"是的確這是一個永續理念的一種推廣也希望能夠將來落實那我們來看其他國家怎麼處理好的比如說在韓國韓國的這個廚餘的處理方式呢他是用"},{"start":388.298,"end":406.963,"text":"劑量付費的原則就是你儲餘量越多你就要繳更多的費用來協助政府或者是協助相關的機關把這個部分能夠更有好的經費來處理這是韓國有的經驗這是一種可以達成導演作用的一個做法"},{"start":408.124,"end":430.906,"text":"比較特別的反而是法國法國在2016年他們就定立了反食品浪費法他們的做法就是要求禁止就是該法禁止面積超過400平方公尺的大型超市銷毀或者是丟棄可食用的食物取而代之的是強制要求跟食物原住的組織包括食物銀行等"},{"start":431.346,"end":450.068,"text":"慈善機關他們會先訂立一個捐贈的協議再分配那如果不遵守這個法律的經營者將被處以罰款這個是他們當初執行的時候那後來他們將集體的差點不管是監獄 醫院或者學校都把它納為其中的一環"},{"start":451.209,"end":469.709,"text":"希望能夠要求去做食物浪費的診斷因為你有診斷 知道怎麼處理才能夠有效的去把這個食物浪費減少這個是他們曾經正在執行當中的一些內容這個是可以當作一個參考的部分"},{"start":470.249,"end":479.897,"text":"不知道這部分環境部甚至包括農業部可不可以一起來研議如果國外有相關的經驗的話台灣如何能夠借用國外的經驗來做後續的處理"},{"start":481.823,"end":507.037,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這非常好的建議因為法國這個法我六月的時候剛好到法國有當面問他們的官員這個法實際上執行的狀況那我們會密切注意那也跟委員報告因為我們現在也在推一個資源循環的推動法那其實也會把這個觀念放在這個法裡面也希望委員到時候可以來支持做這個事情因為這個是避免食物浪費很重要的法規上面訂定的一個一環"},{"start":507.537,"end":531.782,"text":"是太好了我們會除了積極來互相討論以外我們希望這個法律能夠順利經過大家共同討論來支持是好謝謝那最後有關於這個處以爭主的申報系統跟稽查長我想今天已經非常多的委員針對於相關的這個內容做了相關的槌尋那部長也都有意義來做說明"},{"start":532.322,"end":547.123,"text":"那我們也看到的確的確還是有將近一半左右他沒有辦法要依照好的規定來做稽核稽查那這部分我覺得是不是"},{"start":548.044,"end":566.349,"text":"部長這邊有可以更有強力的一些作為來協助地方政府在這個處理過程當中如果他們無法去稽查有什麼特別原因或者是這個當中如果又有其他新的破口出來造成的問題部長這邊能不能更有更積極的作為來協助處理這一塊"},{"start":568.909,"end":595.976,"text":"報告委員因為這個是108年一直到現在剛好今年我們也嘗試進行一些感測器溫度計在這個鍋爐甚至還有CCTV直接即時的監控目前我們有測試過了某一個廠然後其實執行的效果蠻好的而且這樣就避免說他到底有沒有去稽查我們會更有強制的力量也可以幫地方政府來做這個事所以我們正在研議如果未來還是必須靠廚藝真主的話"},{"start":596.556,"end":614.084,"text":"我們就強烈建議要導入這套的系統是 期待就是說如果民眾能夠掌握類似的訊息我相信地方住管機關也會比較有壓力所以我們希望把這個訊息能夠不斷的或者是甚至是每天能夠讓透過媒體朋友的一些報導"},{"start":615.705,"end":629.69,"text":"讓民眾知道現在的狀況那也希望地方政府能夠充分的來配合要求所有的這個養豬場或者是相關的處理都可以如期如大家共同努力的方向好沒有問題謝謝委員請部長謝謝幫忙謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1142,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：還沒有請教部長之前，剛好有提到廚餘機，事實上像大型的公務機關，比如說立法院好了，立法院如果有一部商用的廚餘機，大家應該會很高興。不管是立法院或行政院，甚至其他的公務機關，如果有適當處理的話，大家集中用餐以後的廚餘能夠有好的地方來處理，這個主秘可以幫忙反映嗎？還是有其他的管道？"],["彭部長啓明：也報告委員，上次有委員建議廁所不能丟衛生紙，我們就有來輔導了，現在立法院衛生紙可以丟馬桶。委員提出質疑，我們就協助來辦理。"],["王委員正旭：OK，太好了，這樣我相信對於廚餘減量會有很大的幫助。今天就根據召委所排的主題，來跟部長討論一下。我相信今天已經講的非常非常多，不過我希望也能有機會提供一點意見再讓部長做參考。","第一個部分是提升廚餘去化量能及再利用成效。其實我們也知道過去這7年來家戶廚餘量的變動並不大，維持在50萬噸左右，其中有40%用來養豬，另外有45%是用來堆肥。我們看到比較好的是，過去很少量的其他再利用的部分已經成長到11.4%，這部分我相信環境部的確非常用心的在處理。其中包括黑水虻處理的廚餘，去年就有1萬噸，占了整體再利用的1.9%。今天部長的口頭報告裡也都講得非常清楚，如果再把事業廚餘加進來的話，有關於飼料化處理就從四成變成了六成，代表事業廚餘很多都會變成飼料。","剛剛部長也有提到，廚餘量這麼大，除了讓豬當飼料以外，很大一部分希望能夠在處理廚餘過程中成為很好的減量方式，這個我們也可以理解。不過如果能夠有更好的方式，尤其未來目標是不要把它當作養豬廚餘的話，可能有很多很多事情都要持續來努力。今年5月跟7月，我們也分別請環境部跟農業部兩個部會一起來努力，以黑水虻來處理，不管是PFAS，或者是食品廢棄物處理的相關成效。那個時候兩個部會都有表示依據目標來持續推動政策跟鬆綁相關的法律規範，請問目前兩個部會的討論平台有沒有實際的進度？如何能夠更有效率的來促成這部分，不知道部長這邊有沒有可以做進一步說明的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，趁這次廚餘的事情，我們也主動跟陳部長說要加速來完成這個事情，例如如何訂定它可以當成飼料，例如它吃什麼可以變成飼料，這要有一個更好的明確規範，我相信我們會加速來完成這個事情。因為黑水虻的確是一個很有效、有潛力的措施，我們會再跟農業部再做最後確認，我們希望能夠樂觀其成，可以趕快發展起來。"],["王委員正旭：一個月或者是到年底，方便給我們報告嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，到年底好不好？因為我們最近真的很趕。"],["王委員正旭：了解、了解。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩在年底給我們一份相關的研議報告。","再來就是講到預防並減少食物浪費，部長一直強調源頭減量才是最好的選擇，我相信大家都可以認同這個部分，那我們有沒有什麼更具體的因應政策？我這邊看到有一個已經辦理三年的環境教育活動惜食減廚餘，有一個競賽叫做「首惜廚師競賽」，看起來好像辦得非常熱絡，而且總獎金是75萬元，裡面有所謂的十大行動理念，不曉得部長有沒有去參與這樣的活動？"],["彭部長啓明：有、有。"],["王委員正旭：有喔。"],["彭部長啓明：對。也跟委員報告，因為這是一個宣導型的活動，我昨天也特別跟主辦的司長討論，我們辦這個活動，或是國人的剩食量大概是多少，有沒有一個更好的指標能夠來確定，當然我們知道惜食跟食農教育有關，所以我也主動提出來，因為食農教育是農業部在主責，未來我們希望能夠針對源頭減量，特別是食物浪費的部分，這也是保護地球的一種方式，特別是在資源匱乏的時候，所以我們會更積極的來處理。目前我必須坦誠，這是一個活動，活動型的活動，鼓勵大家，但是真的減了多少的量，我們還不知道，所以我必須要用更好的方法來解決。"],["王委員正旭：是，的確這是一個永續理念的推廣，也希望將來能夠落實。","我們來看其他國家怎麼處理好了。比如在韓國，韓國廚餘的處理方式是用計量付費的原則，就是廚餘量越多，就要繳更多的費用……"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員正旭：來協助政府或者是相關的機關，能夠有更好的經費來處理，這是韓國的經驗，是一種可以達成導引作用的做法。比較特別的好像是法國，法國在2016年就訂定反食品浪費法，他們的做法就是該法禁止面積超過400平方公尺的大型超市銷毀或丟棄可食用的食物，取而代之的是強制要求跟食物援助組織（包括食物銀行等）、慈善機關先簽訂捐贈協議，做再分配，如果不遵守該法律的經營者將被處以罰款，這是當初執行的方式，後來他們更積極將集體餐飲，不管是監獄、醫院或學校，都納為其中的一環，希望要求對食物浪費進行診斷，因為有診斷，知道怎麼處理，才能夠有效減少食物的浪費。這些是他們曾經或正在執行中的內容，可以當作參考。不知道有關這部分，環境部甚至包括農業部可不可以一起來研議，如果國外有相關經驗的話，臺灣如何借用國外的經驗做後續處理？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，這是非常好的建議。因為我六月的時候剛好到法國，有當面問他們的官員這個法的實際執行狀況，這部分我們會密切注意。也向委員報告，因為我們現在也在推動資源循環推動法，其實也會把這個觀念放在這個法裡面，也希望委員到時候可以支持做這個事情，因為這對避免食物浪費是很重要的，在法規訂定這一環。"],["王委員正旭：是，太好了。除了積極互相討論以外，我們希望這個法律能夠順利推動，大家共同討論後能夠支持，謝謝。最後是有關廚餘蒸煮申報系統和稽查掌握，我想今天已經有非常多委員針對相關內容做垂詢，部長也都有一一說明。我們也看到，的確還是有將近一半左右，沒有辦法依照規定做稽核、稽查，這部分部長是否可以提出一些更強力的作為協助地方政府？","在這個處理過程當中，如果他們無法去稽查，例如有什麼特別原因，或者是在這當中，如果又有其他新的破口造成問題，部長能不能有更積極的作為去協助處理這一塊？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這是從108年一直執行到現在，剛好今年我們也嘗試進行一些作為，例如裝設感測器、溫度計在鍋爐上，甚至還有CCTV做直接、即時的監控。我們有測試過某一個場，其實執行效果滿好的，而且這樣能避免他們沒有去做稽查，我們會更有強制的力量，也可以幫地方政府做這個事，所以我們正在研議，如果未來還是必須做廚餘蒸煮的話，我們就會強烈建議導入這套系統。"],["王委員正旭：是，我們期待。如果民眾能夠掌握類似的訊息，我相信地方主管機關也會比較有壓力，所以我們希望這個訊息能夠不斷發布，甚至是每天都能夠透過媒體朋友的報導，讓民眾知道現在的狀況，也希望地方政府能夠充分配合，並要求所有的養豬場，相關的處理都可以如期執行，大家共同努力。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：請部長繼續幫忙，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的詢答。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：下一位請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51d061d830dcdf4eadd0e1721cc507f77aa1aee410a7bf192f632dec9194285a125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:44:03 - 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有請任市長請任市長委員早任市長早我之前也有來質詢過任市長就是關心園民會的人員編制"},{"start":26.843,"end":40.479,"text":"那麼我在公文上有看到我們人總這邊已經有發給園民會就是在明年115年度同意合增櫃會職員預算原額18人"},{"start":43.602,"end":72.275,"text":"那這18人到底要怎麼運用規劃當然公文是說依業務推動需要不過我今天是要來跟我們任市長來說明一下我其實很希望原民會能夠增加一個管理原保地的這種土地的數為什麼我這麼說因為對原住民來講其實土地是非常重要的"},{"start":73.135,"end":97.08,"text":"我擔任立委的這幾年也發現我們族人最愛陳情的就是關於土地但是我們看一下以原民會目前它有一個叫土管處土地管理處它管理的原保地面積有26萬公頃它的編制員額我們不要管編制編制是27名實際上是23名"},{"start":99.841,"end":115.553,"text":"可是我們去看一下林保署林保署它管理的土地有162萬公頃可是它實際的人員有2538名這是一個非常大的落差"},{"start":116.514,"end":139.826,"text":"那麼國產署我們也來看一下就是專門看它差不多的國有非公用土地它是21萬公頃跟原民會管理的土地是差不多的但是它的原額有647名那我不曉得說站在任市長您的一個觀點您覺得這樣的一個配比你有什麼想法"},{"start":141.47,"end":159.595,"text":"我跟委員報告一下基本上像林保署它本身也有一些動物保育的還有一些像阿里山森林遊樂區相關的它的一個任務的屬性還比較多元另外像國產署因為它有牽涉到"},{"start":161.636,"end":185.294,"text":"更廣泛的國家土地的一個整合應用因為我跟延民會土管處事實上以前 現在的副主委我跟他很熟 他是我同學那我一直也有跟他提到因為在處理原住民保留地的相關土地潛移的部分除了土管處以外有不少的角色扮演是在地方政府"},{"start":185.914,"end":212.475,"text":"那我說真的以政府機關的那個運作的一個機制我會強烈建議在目前的圖管處底下我們如何去搭配地方政府甚至我們可以找民間的一起來參與這樣的一個機制的運作可能會更有效率因為一個組織的膨脹那麼大有時候跟我們期待的會有一些落差"},{"start":212.975,"end":234.276,"text":"那不好意思人事長我必須因為時間的關係我打斷您的話其實您剛剛一直提到地方政府那我也要跟人事長報告就是因為沒有足夠的人員因此必須依賴縣政府依賴地方鄉公所但是呢這長年以來您可能不知道"},{"start":235.359,"end":263.678,"text":"很嚴重的就是私相授受因人涉事產生很多弊端大家各自為政不拿中央園民會當一回事中央園民會也使不上力因為他也必須要把該做的工作交給人家所以這個部分他很容易就變成是地方綁裝的工具像現在越來越多的我們的族人就是站出來抗議"},{"start":264.699,"end":288.574,"text":"因為以前這種所謂的我要怎麼樣他有一個土管會那個可能都是鄉長任命然後呢怎麼分配土地怎麼登記土地一團亂中央使不上力這是一個很嚴重的問題所以呢必須要有所改革那我們很高興這一次看到好不容易給了園民會多了18個這個員額所以我想要請教人事長"},{"start":293.257,"end":304.997,"text":"你支不支持 因為原民會想要啊原民會很希望能夠把這個原保地這麼重要的業務把它升格為土地管理署任市長你支不支持"},{"start":306.035,"end":334.839,"text":"我覺得要升格的問題要比較審慎的去大家去做分析進一步溝通反而因為我按照目前的這一些分工的話出席延民會的圖管處他有出席審查會刊還有最終審定的作業那個權利是在延民會圖管處他那個管理的手頭所以本市就可以去做這件事只是現在是執行的落實的程度的問題"},{"start":335.619,"end":358.242,"text":"來 我跟您說因為實際上就不是這樣原民會使不上力要不然不會有那麼多的弊端產生我們也處理不來所以在這個地方我只是想要了解任市長您的態度跟您是否支持那這樣子我就大概了解但是我還是希望你能夠了解這件事情的嚴重性好不好"},{"start":358.882,"end":384.457,"text":"那另外簡單的就是主席再給我一分鐘另外因為我是教師出身那也很多人也關心這個問題那我也經常的參與全教總的記者會我在這邊跟任市長說現在就是兩個大問題教師大逃亡行政大逃亡就是這樣而且這是很普遍的現象而且越來越嚴重我以行政大逃亡來講"},{"start":386.089,"end":408.059,"text":"真的你很難相信很多地方的學校竟然組長是代理老師當這幾年更嚴重的是越來越多代理老師兼主任但是說一句實在話你以為他喜歡嗎他也不喜歡因為行政家籍也不多但是他多很多行政工作但是他迫於無奈"},{"start":409.113,"end":437.159,"text":"因為這是他的飯碗因為對他一點用處也沒有他當了組長 當了主任他又不是正式老師他也不能把這個積分拿去考校長對他一點意義都沒有迫於無奈這個是一個很嚴重的問題這個已經不是教師尊嚴的問題而是教育根本的問題所以有兩個解方我想請教一下任市長你比較 Prefer 哪一種第一種就是我們目前的行政家級是大概來講是三級"},{"start":438.439,"end":448.652,"text":"然後讓這些帶課老師甚至很多是無證無教師證的帶課老師來兼這些行政工作我們是希望說就把行政僵局兩級化至少呢我們可以兩級化之後有好一點點的一個行政津貼"},{"start":456.542,"end":475.562,"text":"那第二個就是其實教師都是最希望行政專職化就是增加學校的行政人力任市長你比較喜歡哪一種你覺得哪一種是比較你可以支持的我覺得委員提的問題非常好我們現在會分兩個階段第一個我們先跟教育部去溝通"},{"start":476.743,"end":499.758,"text":"聽聽看教育部的看法大家有一個共識以後我們再找一些地方政府因為這一些的財政的負擔有時候會地方政府要去cover所以地方政府的一個聲音我們也要納進來所以我們會分兩個階段那我們會盡快來進行這件事情那你希望給我報告好不好那第二個部分就是關於教師大逃亡"},{"start":500.678,"end":506.617,"text":"我跟您說我先說導師是一個很美的工作"},{"start":507.97,"end":532.338,"text":"早晨接學生進來陪著他晨間閱讀陪著他做招會陪著他做課間活動招陪著他吃營養午餐陪著他一起睡午覺陪著他一起做掃地工作最後送他出校門回家平平安安的回家很美的工作但是我跟任市長說這一些我剛剛講的加起來175分鐘"},{"start":538,"end":560.712,"text":"約三個小時導師費一天一百塊連時薪都不到所以任市長您覺得導師費該不該增加這麼神聖這麼美好的工作這不是尊嚴的問題而已這是我們教育的根本這是我們未來的主人翁有快樂的老師才有快樂的學生可以嗎"},{"start":561.363,"end":572.587,"text":"我們會跟教育部溝通請他們假如有需要調整的話報上來我們來予以支持教育部很高興可以予以支持可以 我一定支持的好 謝謝任市長謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立民"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時44分）謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：人事長早。我之前也有來質詢過人事長，關心原民會的人員編制。我在公文上有看到人總已經發給原民會，在明年（115年度）「同意核增貴會職員預算員額18人」，這18人到底要怎麼運用、規劃，公文是說「依業務推動需要」。我今天要來跟人事長說明一下，我很希望原民會能夠增加一個管理原保地這種土地的署，為什麼我這麼說？因為對原住民來講，其實土地是非常重要的，我擔任立委這幾年也發現，我們族人最愛陳情的就是關於土地，但是我們看一下，原民會目前土地管理處所管理的原保地面積有26萬公頃，其編制員額是27名，實際上是23名；我們去看一下林保署，其管理的土地面積有162萬公頃，可是實際的人員有2,538名，這是一個非常大的落差；我們也來看一下國產署管理的國有非公用土地是21萬公頃，跟原民會管理的土地是差不多的，但是員額有647名。我不曉得站在人事長的觀點，對於這樣的配比，您有什麼想法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，基本上像林保署本身也有動物保育，還有一些像阿里山森林遊樂區相關的，它的任務屬性比較多元。另外，像國產署，它牽涉到更廣泛國家土地的整合、運用。因為我跟原民會土管處……事實上我跟現任的副主委很熟，他是我同學，我一直也有跟他提到，因為在處理原住民保留地相關土地權益的部分，除了土管處以外，有不少的角色扮演是在地方政府。我說真的，以政府機關的運作機制，我會強烈建議在目前土管處底下如何去搭配地方政府，甚至我們可以找民間一起來參與，這樣的機制運作可能會更有效率，因為一個組織的膨脹那麼大，有時候跟我們期待的會有一些落差。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，不好意思，人事長，因為時間的關係，我必須打斷您的話，其實您剛剛一直提到地方政府，我也要跟人事長報告，就是因為沒有足夠的人員，因此必須依賴縣政府、依賴地方鄉公所。但是您可能不知道，長年以來，很嚴重的就是私相授受、因人設事，產生很多弊端，大家各自為政，不把中央原民會當一回事，中央原民會也使不上力，因為它也必須要把該做的工作交給人家，所以這個部分它很容易就變成是地方綁樁的工具。現在越來越多我們的族人站出來抗議，因為以前這種所謂……它有一個土管會，那個可能都是鄉長任命，然後怎麼分配土地、怎麼登記土地，一團亂，中央使不上力，這是一個很嚴重的問題，所以必須要有所改革。我們很高興這一次看到好不容易給原民會多了18個員額，所以我想要請教人事長，你支不支持？因為原民會想要啊！原民會很希望能夠把原保地這麼重要的業務升格為土地管理署，人事長你支不支持？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得升格的問題要比較審慎，大家去做分析，進一步溝通，因為按照目前的這一些分工的話，原民會的土管處有出席、審查、會勘，還有最終審定的作業，那個權力是在原民會土管處，權力是在它的手上，所以它本身就可以去做這件事情，只是現在是執行落實程度的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來，我跟您說，因為實際上就不是這樣，原民會使不上力，要不然不會有那麼多的弊端產生，我們也處理不來。所以在這個地方我只是想要了解人事長您的態度跟您是否支持，那這樣子我就大概了解，但是我還是希望你能夠了解這件事情的嚴重性，好不好？","主席再給我1分鐘。另外，因為我是教師出身，很多人也關心這個問題，我也經常參與全教總的記者會，我在這邊跟人事長說，現在就是兩個大問題：教師大逃亡、行政大逃亡，就是這樣，這是很普遍的現象，而且越來越嚴重。我以行政大逃亡來講，真的很難相信，很多地方學校竟然組長是代理老師當，這幾年更嚴重的是越來越多代理老師兼主任，但是說一句實在話，你以為他喜歡嗎？他也不喜歡，因為行政加給也不多，但是他多很多行政工作，因為他迫於無奈，這是他的飯碗，對他一點用處也沒有，他當了組長、當了主任，他又不是正式老師，他也不能把這個積分拿去考校長，對他一點意義都沒有，迫於無奈，這是一個很嚴重的問題，已經不是教師尊嚴的問題，而是教育根本的問題。","所以有兩個解方，我想請教一下人事長，你比較prefer哪一種？第一種，我們目前的行政加給大概來講是3級，然後讓這些代課老師，甚至很多是無教師證的代課老師來兼這些行政工作，我們希望把行政加給兩級化，至少兩級化之後可以有好一點點的行政津貼。第二個，其實教師都是最希望行政專職化，就是增加學校的行政人力。人事長，你比較喜歡哪一種？你覺得哪一種是你比較可以支持的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員提的問題非常好，我們現在會分兩個階段，第一個，我們先跟教育部去溝通，聽聽看教育部的看法，大家有一個共識以後，我們再找一些地方政府，因為這些財政的負擔有時候地方政府要去cover，所以地方政府的聲音也要納進來，因此我們會分兩個階段，會儘快來進行這件事。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那也希望給我報告，好不好？第二個部分是關於教師大逃亡，我跟您說……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們會一併來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我先說，導師是一個很美的工作，早晨接學生進來，陪著他晨間閱讀、陪著他做朝會、陪著他做課間活動操、陪著他吃營養午餐、陪著他一起睡午覺、陪著他一起做掃地工作，最後送他出校門回家，平平安安的回家，很美的工作。但是我跟人事長說，這一些我剛剛講的加起來175分鐘，約3個小時，導師費一天100塊，連時薪都不到，所以人事長您覺得導師費該不該增加？這麼神聖、這麼美好的工作，這不是尊嚴的問題而已，這是我們教育的根本、這是我們未來的主人翁，有快樂的老師才有快樂的學生，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會跟教育部溝通，假如有需要調增的話，請他們報上來，我們來予以支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：教育部很高興，可以予以支持喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以，我一定支持的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝人事長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員精彩的質詢。","我們接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","賴士葆、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","傅崐萁、傅崐萁，傅崐萁委員不在。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本會。委員沈發惠、傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面來做答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}},{"id":"164828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da516b88668c0ad9172814a9ab9b55a87a24a1aee410a7bf192f0fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:24:20 - 12:31:48","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:24:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:31:48+08:00","duration":448,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.08846875,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.113468750000003,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.03659375,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.504718750000002,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.21721875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.97221875000001,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.44471875,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.76534375,"end":106.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.34221875,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.24471875,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.53346875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.77784375000002,"end":134.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.68284375000002,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.73846875,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":204.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.18034375000002,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.80909375000002,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.65596875000003,"end":239.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.97659375,"end":239.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.57534375,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.11409375000002,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.32409375000003,"end":287.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.78346875,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.00659375000004,"end":297.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.48659375,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.96721875000003,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.40471875000003,"end":308.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.50096875,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.78784375000004,"end":351.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.75784375,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.67659375,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.72284375000004,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.66721875,"end":365.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.86971875,"end":356.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.92034375000003,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.02159375,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.86409375000005,"end":381.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.46909375,"end":404.00159375000004},{"speak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有請我們兩位部長請兩位部長徐國瑜好兩位部長辛苦我想這個今年五月我們跟陳部長"},{"start":25.489,"end":53.662,"text":"我們在屏東這個舉辦了這個我們這個台灣是唯一亞洲唯一的這個三大豬病這個肺疫國的一個典禮那當然我們就是很高興這樣子我們台灣的這個豬肉這個能夠還能夠外銷到國外讓我們的鄉親也可以吃到這個好吃的一個健康的一個豬肉但是很遺憾這次的台中的非洲豬的事件我想不只造成我們這個養豬產業的一個停擺甚至連我們消費端"},{"start":55.383,"end":74.861,"text":"我們屏東的肉圓、萬輪豬腳、彰化的控肉飯可能因為貨源也會受到衝擊影響所以我想今天兩位部長在這邊我想我們還是要正視一下這有幾個問題昨天我們全國養豬協會的潘寧洲理事長也是我們屏東的他帶領全國的這個各縣市的養豬協會的理事長來陳請那當然目前針對這樣的一個"},{"start":80.225,"end":102.234,"text":"15天之後他們當然我們現在希望這15天能夠把疫情能夠把它消滅掉然後能夠防堵這樣的一個破口出現但是他們也擔心這個後續這個豬價會崩盤的問題請教那個陳部長目前針對這部分我知道部裡面有提出這個管制出租還有煤核冷凍業者收購這些政策那有沒有辦法針對這個保駕收購這個機制來做處理請部長答覆"},{"start":104.955,"end":125.966,"text":"我們也曾經的去評估這些保駕收購的部分那因為現在目前如果我們非常順利的在15天之後能夠逐步解禁的時候那我們要去消化的豬隻大概是35到39萬隻那35到39萬隻但是每一天人吃的量是"},{"start":127.17,"end":137.732,"text":"是一樣的啦所以變成說這些豬隻必須拉到冷凍庫去做一些凍除先調節一下做一個調節那這個調節如果完全由中央做"},{"start":139.215,"end":160.065,"text":"那中央做的時候市面上缺的時候因為市面上的冷凍一些公司他也會進口豬肉嘛所以變成說我們釋出的時候又更難去釋出所以我們現在是用媒合就是給一些協助希望這些冷凍工會來一起來來收購然後我們的一些"},{"start":161.005,"end":188.765,"text":"補助的方案如果讓他覺得說不用再進口那相對的這些豬肉就有機會逐步的讓我們的國內消費者食用我知道當然目前我們先針對這個飼料補貼跟貸款的部分我們先給予第一階段的協助但是我想後續的部分包含你剛講的我們怎麼樣針對國內的產銷調解這一則啦然後冷鏈系統的建置也很重要這部分冷鏈系統是不是有在進行規劃"},{"start":213.056,"end":213.076,"text":"是"},{"start":223.342,"end":250.267,"text":"部長因為距離這個禁運進宅的時間也存幾天而已這要加快進行啊不然到時候整個A出來那個真的是市場會很混亂我們了解這個時間的壓力但是我其實很希望能夠順利的能夠在這個時間點因為現在剛好正是前夫妻現在剛好正是前夫妻發病的時間所以我們現在的目的就是要防疫趕快去確認我們的場域是乾淨的"},{"start":251.481,"end":280.421,"text":"我想請教彭部長當然我們現在屏東我們也是養豬的一個大縣那當然剛剛有很多委員都提到這個廚餘去化的問題那當然這個過去就是一直爭論爭論不休啦那當然這個剛剛部長有提到這個養豬業者對於廚餘的去化也扮演一定功能的角色但是目前碰到這樣的一個問題後續部裡面針對這樣的一個去化的問題因為我自己本身也接到很多陳情包含學校的營養午餐包含餐廳"},{"start":281.441,"end":295.857,"text":"很多都沒人要修 他們也很頭痛那你說要全部弄到屏東的這個焚化爐焚化爐本身就有一定的運作的能量那如果這樣子 他們也會擔心造成廚藝進去之後會造成這個機械運作的一個問題"},{"start":296.898,"end":321.632,"text":"這部分會遇到很多的一個困境部長怎麼去處理這個問題我們現在處理的調度短時間內的處理短時間內沒問題但是我們認為如果時間一拉長一定是一個很大的壓力所以這個部分例如說委員提到的這個未來如何再有一個更好的制度那我們的確正在研議當中那我們是希望是說我要特別這個場合就感謝這個養豬業者幫我們去化掉很多的廚餘"},{"start":322.853,"end":337.781,"text":"那未來的有幾個方向那我們現在會跟農業部來討論例如說共同珍珠或是說生殖能其實那個因為有些地方要推動這個東西都很好但是很容易被變成零幣設施那這個我們就要從全面的來規劃從循環經濟的角度來看這個問題"},{"start":341.562,"end":363.753,"text":"這個我們養豬業者也是在提這個事情就是說他們願意配合政策但是我們如果沒有一個明確的方向變成這個到處流竄這個也不能解決問題是沒錯那有沒有可能考慮像日本一樣成立這個集中的一個斟酌的模式有這個對謝謝委員的建議這個部分我們那個會跟那個主要是農業部主責那我們會跟農業部一起來協作來討論這個事情"},{"start":365.914,"end":380.991,"text":"那我想剛剛我也特別提到這個我們未來後續針對這個兩個部會 跨部會整變的一個部分那我要特別跟部長提到一個事情我自己本身家裡我也是很早就買廚藝機了我媽媽自己有在煎火煎菜"},{"start":382.712,"end":403.619,"text":"當作肥料那個效果真的很好啦那屏東縣政府今年也主動補助經費這個補助我們的鄉親來購買廚藝機也是很那個效果也很好而且他們也在加碼我想這個部長這個政策非常非常的好而且能夠幫幫忙家裡能夠做這樣一個去化的一個動作有沒有考慮編列經費來全民性的一個推廣"},{"start":404.239,"end":421.331,"text":"委員這個我們來研究一下但是因為現在我們的經費財化法過後之後要如何跟地方來合作這個要討論啦但是我是覺得這是一個方向我們可以來演繹因為我覺得能夠從這個地方去帶動多少都有對這個儲備量一定會有減少的一個效益"},{"start":422.352,"end":448.795,"text":"那最後我想兩位部長我想未來共同的努力的方向這個存一百的時間而已真的要加快速度啦我想我們趕快讓這個產業恢復秩序讓我們的消費端的鄉親也能夠趕快恢復能夠吃到吃到那個好的地方然後也避免這樣一個市場崩盤的一個危機啦謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝徐委員謝謝兩位部長接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時24分）謝謝主席，有請兩位部長。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["彭部長啓明：徐委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：兩位部長辛苦了。今年5月我們跟陳部長在屏東舉辦臺灣是亞洲唯一三大豬病非疫國的典禮，當然我們很高興臺灣的豬肉還能夠外銷到國外，讓我們的鄉親也可以吃到好吃的、健康的豬肉，但是很遺憾，這次臺中非洲豬瘟的事件，我想不只造成養豬產業的停擺，甚至連消費端，像屏東的肉圓、萬巒豬腳、彰化的焢肉飯可能因為貨源也受到衝擊影響。今天兩位部長在這邊，我想我們還是要正視幾個問題。","昨天全國養豬協會潘連周理事長，他是我們屏東人，帶領全國各縣市養豬協會的理事長來陳情，針對15天之後，他們當然希望這15天能夠把疫情消滅掉，然後防堵破口出現，但是他們也擔心後續豬價會崩盤的問題。請教陳部長，目前針對這部分，我知道部裡有提出管制出租，還有媒合冷凍業者收購這些政策，那有沒有辦法針對保價收購的機制來做處理？請部長答復。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也曾經評估保價收購，因為目前的狀況是，如果我們非常順利的在15天之後能夠逐步解禁，到時候要消化的豬隻大概是35萬到39萬隻。但是每一天人吃的量是一樣的，所以變成這些豬隻必須被拉到冷凍庫去凍儲……"],["徐委員富癸：去調節一下。"],["陳部長駿季：去做一個調節。這個調節如果完全由中央做，但市面上缺豬肉時，冷凍公司也會進口豬肉，變成我們要釋出的時候又更難釋出，所以我們現在是用媒合，就是給一些協助，希望這些冷凍公會一起來收購。我們的一些補助方案，如果讓他覺得不用再進口，相對這些豬肉就有機會逐步讓國內的消費者食用。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我知道目前先針對飼料補貼跟貸款的部分先給予第一階段的協助，但是我想後續包含你剛才講的，怎麼樣針對國內的產銷調節，這要做啦！然後冷鏈系統的建置也很重要，這部分的冷鏈系統是不是有在進行規劃？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我們同步在做。現在第一階段就是針對禁運禁宰，我們給予整個生產鏈協助，應該在禮拜五、禮拜六就一定會提出方案。第二階段最重要的，也是更重要的是，解封以後，豬要怎麼樣有秩序的進到市場，讓價格穩定，那是我們的目標。我們現在已經在跟所有的養豬協會以及所有可能的買家同步協商，看要怎麼處理。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，因為距離禁運禁宰的時間只剩幾天而已，要加快進行啦，不然到時候全部釋出來，市場真的會很混亂。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，我們了解這個時間的壓力，但是我其實很希望能夠順利地在這個時間點，因為現在剛好正是潛伏期發病的時間，我們現在的目的就是要防疫，趕快確認場域是乾淨的。"],["徐委員富癸：好。另外，我想請教彭部長，我們屏東現在也是養豬的大縣，剛剛很多委員都提到廚餘去化的問題，過去就是一直針對這點爭論不休。部長剛剛也有提到，養豬業者對於廚餘去化也扮演了一定功能的角色，但是目前碰到這樣的問題，後續部裡針對去化的問題，因為我自己本身也接到很多陳情，包含學校的營養午餐，包含餐廳的廚餘，目前都沒有人要收，他們也很頭痛。你說要全部弄到屏東的焚化爐，焚化爐本身就有一定運作的能量，廚餘進去之後，他們也會擔心造成機械運作的問題。這部分會遇到很多困境，部長怎麼去處理這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在調度，短時間內沒問題，但是我們認為如果時間一拉長，一定是一個很大的壓力。所以這個部分，比如說委員提到的未來如何有一個更好的制度，我們的確正在研議當中。我要特別在這個場合感謝養豬業者幫我們去化掉很多廚餘。未來有幾個方向，我們會跟農業部來討論，例如共同蒸煮或是生質能，因為有些地方要推動這個東西都很好，但是很容易變成鄰避設施，我們就要通盤全面的來規劃，從循環經濟的角度來看這個問題。"],["徐委員富癸：養豬業者也是在提這個事情，他們願意配合政策，但是如果沒有一個明確的方向，變成到處流竄，這也不能解決問題。"],["彭部長啓明：是、是，沒錯、沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有可能考慮像日本一樣，成立集中蒸煮的模式？"],["彭部長啓明：有，謝謝委員的建議，這部分主要是農業部主責，我們會跟農業部一起協作、討論這個事情。"],["徐委員富癸：我剛剛也特別提到未來兩個部會跨部會整併的部分，我要特別跟部長提到一件事，我自己家裡很早就買廚餘機了，我媽媽有在種花、種菜，廚餘當作肥料的效果真的很好。屏東縣政府今年也主動補助經費，補助我們鄉親購買廚餘機，效果也很好，而且他們也再加碼。部長，這個政策非常非常的好，而且能夠幫忙家裡能夠作去化的動作，有沒有考慮編列經費做全面性的推廣？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來研究一下。但是因為現在我們的經費在財劃法過後，要如何跟地方來合作，這個要討論，但是我覺得這是一個方向，我們可以來研議。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我覺得能夠從地方去帶動，多少對於廚餘量一定會有減少的效益。"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，我想兩位部長未來共同努力的方向，只剩一個禮拜的時間而己，真的要加快速度，趕快讓這個產業恢復秩序，讓我們消費端的鄉親能夠趕快吃到好的豬肉，也避免市場崩盤的危機，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝徐委員，謝謝兩位部長。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}},{"id":"164827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da513cb93f628a8c434b14a9ab9b55a87a24a1aee410a7bf192f0fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:11:48 - 12:24:08","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:11:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T12:24:08+08:00","duration":740,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.232843750000001,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.392218750000001,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.644718750000003,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.33596875,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.11221875,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.49096875,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.05909375,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.05846875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.14659375000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.94346875000001,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.14909375000002,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.50284375,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.70596875,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.32159375,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.16534375,"end":222.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.76409375,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.76159375,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.31846875000002,"end":239.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.31284375,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.70284375,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.78534375000004,"end":276.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.11846875000003,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.13096875,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.35846875000004,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.94471875,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.95846875,"end":309.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.19346875,"end":339.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.60221875,"end":346.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.74471875,"end":348.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.03971875,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.49034375,"end":364.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.54346875000005,"end":383.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":398.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.09096875,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.20784375000005,"end":417.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.61971875,"end":424.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.09534375000004,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.15784375000004,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.47784375000003,"end":443.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.02909375,"end":444.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.88971875000004,"end":445.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.69971875000005,"end":445.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.71659375,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.91909375,"end":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辛苦因為現在的防疫確實都急如新火大家非常關心的就是到底要不要全面禁止用廚餘來養豬最近討論很多之前大家討論過2018年的時候當時的張立善縣長 余玲縣長"},{"start":43.654,"end":72.754,"text":"獨排眾議當時他的其實他的壓力非常非常大來自於中央不支持而且呢其實這個豬農也未必支持因為認為這個成本提高當時他讓雲林縣全面禁止廚餘來養豬現在事後證明他是對的那麼當時我們的賴總統是院長他打臉張立善而且他說這是影響這個豬瘟的防疫工作"},{"start":73.474,"end":93.726,"text":"但是呢其實大家一致的認為就是怎麼樣能夠降低廚餘去養豬的這樣的一個比例那其實如果看到從107年到現在來說老師說有關這一部分我們事實上是沒有作為的啦對不起我們把它看到"},{"start":94.446,"end":116.183,"text":"就是我們看一下一個資料就是今年家戶的廚餘再利用方式的一個趨勢圖最下面呢就是一個就是用廚餘來養豬的一個比例107年當時是60%沒有錯有逐年在降低但是到113年仍然有42.8%"},{"start":118.044,"end":133.596,"text":"也就是說這7年來其實我們在廚餘怎麼樣的再利用的部分這7年來是沒有作為我們從這個數字是可以看到的所以現在我們是暫時性的就是全面禁止廚餘養豬"},{"start":137.039,"end":153.556,"text":"當時的賴院長提到的就是很怕廚餘會流竄他說如果我們禁止廚餘養足那其他廚餘會流竄但是現在確實發生囉現在確實發生廚餘確實有在流竄那這兩天不是有屏東的這個畜牧場呢"},{"start":154.657,"end":182.818,"text":"把他載到這個換外縣市的廚餘就換外縣市廚餘現在變成大家用跨縣市因為如果本自己的縣市沒有辦法去處理那尤其你們現在講台中台中處理不好啊怎麼等等之類那現在可能他不是在第一線台中現在是在風口浪尖上其他的縣市你難保其他縣市的處理方式會比台中市更好啊所以現在恐怕就有全台流竄的問題"},{"start":184.039,"end":192.798,"text":"所以我想請教 我先請教彭部長這種出於現在可能全台流竄的問題你們有沒有注意到 然後如何的防範"},{"start":193.724,"end":222.473,"text":"包委員 我們環境部跟各縣市的環保局有一個平台然後定期都會開會就這次的事情那當然台中這次它的量能它的垃圾量能處理各方面就不夠所以我們今天我也特別請我們昨天就請我們的署長希望我們也可以伸出援手協助他們調度是不是跟別的縣市一起來合作那因為這個廚藝處理現在有其他縣市答應跟台中市合作到目前為止因為台中並沒有提出它的需求"},{"start":222.813,"end":247.632,"text":"可是你不是说中央伸出援手吗我们也就是询问他嘛询问他要不要什么帮忙因为他的这个堆肥啊或是除那个掩埋的方式那部长你的评估啊你的评估现在不是只有台中禁止厨余养猪其他县制也禁止嘛云林乐师他七年前他就有禁止所以他做的比较好他已经还把他变成堆肥那他现在最近因为"},{"start":248.493,"end":276.656,"text":"又他本來有一些少量的廚餘他還可以賣到外面去但是現在呢又回流因為全線全台就在流竄啊所以他要去生產他那個堆肥的生產線因為他本來雲林是原來做別那他是因為他原來就在做可是其他縣市老實講我剛剛說因為我們現在是盯住台中但是不代表台中以外的縣市會做得比台中好您同不同意"},{"start":277.637,"end":300.519,"text":"同意但是我們現在都積極的跟他們在看目前是沒有問題的可是我剛才講就是已經發生屏東的畜牧場就開始混外縣市的廚餘現在大家就開始混所以我的意思就是說您剛講說中央伸出援手非常好所以現在變成可能需要跨縣市的來處理"},{"start":302.18,"end":329.903,"text":"但是你現在也沒有辦法我真的覺得以現階段你去問各縣市政府搞不好他不敢同意我過去我們在台北市後來我們才步入這位剛開始台北市因為當時焚化爐有一些餘裕可以去燒其他縣市的垃圾一開始台北市是反對說為什麼我們的焚化廠要去燒外縣市的垃圾呢可是慢慢大家也是慢慢可以接受說"},{"start":330.903,"end":348.28,"text":"其實這個台北市竟然文化廠是有餘裕的我們可以協助外縣市來處理垃圾那以現階段全部大家其實我相信所有的養豬大縣都應該面臨到說這些廚藝如何去化不是只有台中 您同意吧"},{"start":349.056,"end":351.779,"text":"同意 像台北市其實它的焚化爐餘裕還蠻多的但是它可以給各縣市的比例只有3%對 可是我的意思說別說我們養豬大戶嘉義 彰化 還有台南 高雄其實都 屏東 屏東最大"},{"start":365.615,"end":383.505,"text":"我認為他們現在也會面臨現通禁止廚餘我的廚餘到要怎麼處理所以我想請問到目前為止到目前為止作為跨縣市的廚餘的去化跟處理現在你們有沒有一套辦法"},{"start":384.265,"end":406.65,"text":"包委員有的 現在其實我們每天都在監控 甚至我們也跟有些縣市他的清運的方式有些呢因為過去是清運是養豬的業者清運現在未來有一天改變 我們都在積極的在處理那目前短期間內我說短期間內針對這個最短期間是沒有問題的但是長時間我們還是希望說未來對針對廚藝有一個更好的方式來處理"},{"start":407.45,"end":423.464,"text":"因為我這邊我也請教陳部長我希望說現在因為一剛剛開始發生總是會比較亂一些我這個出於的去處理那長期而言其實我們所收到的訊息大家都認為"},{"start":425.154,"end":447.774,"text":"就是在這個時候大家都感受到廚餘會帶來這個整個的防疫上的困難所以在長時間還是應該去做全面的去禁止廚餘養豬那麼部長這邊可不可以往這個方向去做研議到現在為止你們沒有鬆口嗎"},{"start":448.474,"end":474.901,"text":"對我們第一個就是我們還是持續的去做廚餘轉型的部分那廚餘如果禁止我在這邊跟委員報告就是廚餘的大縣市第一個是新北跟屏東市有98場是最多的那再來就是桃園新竹縣台中市彰化縣這幾個都是養豬所以這幾個縣市你去問他們的時候他們就會有所保留但是以中央部會的立場來講"},{"start":476.581,"end":496.213,"text":"廚餘要養豬你一定要達到你要的一個必要的一個監管還有一個確保它的一個廚餘的安全但是我想我們跟環境部會講有沒有可能再把廚餘的養豬的這個再利用像剛才委員有講的把它變成工業化的飼料再來養豬那這個部分我們一定會積極的去做"},{"start":497.216,"end":514.634,"text":"我覺得這些工業化真的是必須的我認為雲林 因為我覺得他做了七年我覺得雲林的這種做法其實是可以給其他 因為雲林也是養豬牠的養豬頭數最多的嘛 對不對對 但是他全部用飼料 他是全部用飼料 他不用廚餘"},{"start":515.735,"end":530.172,"text":"是那但是他一定原來有廚餘嘛他現在還有廚餘啊對不對那他的處理我現在講的是我們如果能夠把廚餘把它處理好處理好那當然就有助於我們去推動全面的禁止廚餘養豬嘛"},{"start":531.934,"end":558.994,"text":"所以原理當他做了七年那七年我覺得可以到目前為止看起來他是成功的啊他是成功的我剛才講說他現在還變成說那因為他的廚藝又回流回來了所以呢他就增加他的堆肥的生產線像老實說連我自己我最近看了我家裡本來沒有廚藝機我決定要去買一台廚藝機了你知道嗎我就要推廣就說從家戶學校到餐廳"},{"start":560.575,"end":586.77,"text":"我覺得你們現在就可以推廣啊大家有這樣的認識大家有這樣意識到那當然你說那個院長講說大家把這個東西都吃下去什麼都在當然會被人家三小可是如果別說我今天家戶我做出來我就我今天我家戶就買一台廚藝機可以的話我學校也可以添置廚藝我覺得我們在其他的政策不管在尤其你的學校啦或者有一些重點的地方你給他"},{"start":587.911,"end":604.921,"text":"給他那個補貼也好或者給他一些什麼優惠也好這樣子來降低這個廚餘量大家一起做比部長在那邊我也知道你們現在一定都在加班嘛比你們坐在這邊可能會大家就是這種事應該是大家共同一起來"},{"start":605.481,"end":627.755,"text":"的一个工作所以也希望委员去跟大家宣传家里有厨余机是不错的我也跟各位委员报告厨余的堆肥的设施像云林是一个特别的个案当然有些县市连珍珠也是其实它很容易变成地方的林壁设施这个也希望大家能够来了解我认为时间我说你们三年只通过一家通过一家是合格的珍珠场"},{"start":635.419,"end":656.633,"text":"其他的就要靠這個養豬場一個一個去跟你通報所以我覺得你們其實來自於中央的真的還是有很多工作要做啦很多工作要做就是說我覺得七年前那個是錯失了一個時機雲林縣政府我現在回頭看我覺得雲林縣政府是那個"},{"start":657.654,"end":673.956,"text":"就是摒除所有的壓力去做那是很好的而漁林縣政府現在已經做出一個時機給大家看因為他的養豬戶數也很多那我也不相信他的廚藝會比別人個人的製造量我也不相信他會比其他縣市少那他怎麼做到的"},{"start":674.537,"end":691.712,"text":"對不對雲林可以做到那我相信其他縣市也都慢慢可以做到現在是起步嘛萬事起頭難好不好所以我還是在這邊還是正式的我們還是會推動全面禁止廚餘來養豬啊這才是一勞永逸的方式"},{"start":691.912,"end":707.868,"text":"不過我也提醒委員就是說我們也必須感謝很多的養豬業者幫我們去化這種廚餘不然這廚餘量很大那如果很多的餐廳這個廚餘量無法去化的話其實它未來都會變成是一個成本在那個地方那樣的對於社會的影響也必須考慮在裡面"},{"start":708.208,"end":736.554,"text":"我知道如果那麼容易啊如果那麼容易當時張立善一說我禁止全面禁止廚餘養豬那其他縣市通通都應該跟進啊對不對很多事情容易的事情好容易的事情大家都會去做就是不容易嘛好不好但是我覺得今天竟然發生這樣的事件而且大家就全部都得認知都是跟廚餘是有絕對的關係的時候我覺得可以做就去推動好不好好謝謝"},{"start":740.363,"end":740.846,"text":"謝謝黃委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1075,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時11分）謝謝主席，我請環境部部長跟農業部部長。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，兩位部長好，辛苦了。現在防疫確實急如星火，大家非常關心的就是到底要不要全面禁止用廚餘來養豬，最近討論很多，之前大家討論過，2018年，當時雲林縣張麗善縣長獨排眾議，當時他的壓力其實非常非常大，壓力來自於中央不支持，而且豬農也未必支持，因為豬農認為成本會提高，當時他讓雲林縣全面禁止用廚餘來養豬，現在事後證明他是對的。當時我們的賴總統是行政院長，他打臉張麗善，而且說這會影響豬瘟的防疫工作，但是怎麼樣降低廚餘養豬的比例，如果從107年到現在來說，老實說，有關於這一部分，事實上是沒有作為的。我們看一下資料，這是今年家戶的廚餘再利用方式的趨勢圖，在最下面就是用廚餘來養豬的比例，107年當時是60%，雖然有逐年在降低，但是到113年仍然有42.8%，也就是說，這7年來，在廚餘再利用的部分，這7年來沒有作為，我們從這個數字是可以看到的。現在我們暫時性地全面禁止廚餘養豬，當時賴院長不禁止的理由就是很怕廚餘會流竄，他說，如果雲林縣禁止廚餘養豬，那廚餘會流竄到其他縣市，但是現在確實發生了廚餘流竄的事情，這兩天不是有屏東的畜牧場把廚餘混雜外縣市的廚餘，現在變成大家用跨縣市的方式來處理廚餘，因為擔心自己的縣市沒有辦法處理，尤其你們現在講臺中處理不好，臺中現在是在風口浪尖上，難保其他縣市的處理方式會比臺中市更好，所以現在恐怕就有全臺流竄的問題，所以我想請教部長，我先請教彭部長，廚餘現在可能全臺流竄的問題，你們有沒有注意到？如何防範？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們環境部跟各縣市環保局有一個平台，定期都會開會，針對這一次的事情進行討論。臺中這一次垃圾處理各方面的量能不夠，所以我昨天特別請我們的署長來，表示我們希望可以伸出援手，協助他們調度人力，考慮是不是跟別的縣市一起來合作。因為這個廚餘處理跟垃圾的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：到目前為止，有其他縣市答應跟臺中市合作嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為臺中並沒有提出這個需求……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是你不是說中央伸出援手嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們就是詢問他們要不要什麼幫忙，對於他們的堆肥或掩埋方式，我們有提供建議。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你來評估，現在不是只有臺中禁止廚餘養豬，其他縣市也禁止，雲林是7年前就禁止，所以做得比較好，雲林還把廚餘變成堆肥，本來有一些少量的廚餘還可以賣到外面去，但是現在又回流，因為現在廚餘就在全臺流竄，所以雲林要去做堆肥的生產線，雲林本來做得比較好，是因為他們原來就在做，可是其他縣市就不然，我剛剛說，我們現在是盯住臺中，但是不代表臺中以外的縣市會做得臺中好，您同不同意？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。但是我們現在都積極地跟他們在看有沒有問題，目前是沒有問題的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你認為沒有，可是我剛剛講了，事情已經發生了，屏東的畜牧場開始混雜外縣市的廚餘，現在大家就開始混，所以我的意思就是說，您剛剛說中央伸出援手，非常好，現在變成可能需要跨縣市來處理，但是你現在也沒有辦法處理這個問題，我真的覺得，以現階段的情況，你去問各縣市政府，搞不好他們不敢同意。過去我在臺北市，後來才步入這裡，過去臺北市焚化爐因為當時還有一些餘裕，可以去燒其他縣市的垃圾，一開始臺北市民是反對的說：為什麼我們的焚化爐要去燒外縣市的垃圾？可是慢慢地大家也是可以接受，其實臺北市焚化爐是有餘裕的，我們可以協助外縣市來處理垃圾。以現階段的情形，我相信所有的養豬大縣應該都面臨廚餘如何去化的問題，不是只有臺中，您同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。像臺北市，其實它的焚化爐餘裕還滿多的，但是它可以給各縣市的比例只有3%。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，可是我的意思是，比如說，我們的養豬大戶，包含嘉義、彰化、臺南、高雄、屏東等地，其中屏東最大，他們現在也會面臨禁止廚餘養豬的問題，那他們的廚餘到底要怎麼處理？所以我想請問，到目前為止，對於跨縣市的廚餘去化跟處理，現在你們有沒有一套辦法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，有的，其實我們每天都在監控，甚至我們也跟一些縣市討論清運的方式，因為過去清運是由養豬的業者清運，現在和未來會有一些改變，我們都在積極地處理。目前短期間內，這段期間的處理方式是沒有問題的，但是在長時間上，我們還是希望未來針對廚餘有一個更好的方式來處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。在這邊我也請教陳部長，現在因為剛剛開始發生廚餘處理問題，總是會比較亂一些，那長期而言，據我所收到的訊息，大家都認為，在這個時候，大家都感受到廚餘會帶來整個防疫的困難，所以在長時間還是應該全面地禁止廚餘養豬，那麼部長可不可以往這個方向去做研議？到現在為止，你們沒有鬆口嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。第一個就是，我們還是持續地去做廚餘轉型，廚餘如果禁止養豬，我在這邊跟委員報告，廚餘養豬場的大縣市，第一個是新北跟屏東，屏東有98場，是最多的。再來就是桃園、新竹縣、臺中市、彰化縣，這幾個都是養豬大縣市，所以這幾個縣市你去問他們的時候，他們就會有所保留，但是以中央部會的立場來講，廚餘要養豬，一定要達到必要的監管，還有確保廚餘的安全，但是我想我們會跟環境部講，有沒有可能再把養豬廚餘再利用，像剛才委員也有講的，把它變成工業化的飼料再來養豬，這個部分我們一定會積極的去做。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這些工業化真的是必須的。雲林就是做了7年，我覺得雲林的這種做法，其實是可以給其他地方參考，因為雲林的養豬頭數最多的嘛，對不對？我也不相信雲林……"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是雲林全部用飼料，不用廚餘。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，但是原來一定有廚餘嘛，現在還有廚餘啊，對不對？那他的處理，我現在講的是，如果能夠把廚餘處理好，處理好當然就有助於我們推動全面禁止廚餘養豬嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：雲林做了7年，我覺得到目前為止看起來他是成功的啊，他是成功的。我剛剛講，他現在因為廚餘又回流回來了，所以就增加堆肥的生產線。老實說，連我自己，我最近看了，我家裡本來沒有廚餘機，我決定要去買一台廚餘機了！你知道嗎？我覺得要推廣，從家戶、學校到餐廳，你們現在就可以推廣啊！大家有這樣的認識，大家有這樣意識到，院長講說大家把東西都吃下去什麼的，當然會被人家訕笑。可是比如我家戶今天做出來，我家裡就買一台廚餘機，可以的話，學校也可以添置廚餘機，我覺得我們在其他政策，尤其在學校或者有一些重點的地方，你給他補貼也好，或者給他一些什麼優惠也好，這樣子來降低廚餘量，大家一起做，比部長在那邊急，我也知道你們現在一定都在加班嘛，比你們坐在這邊可能會有用，這種事情就是應該大家共同一起來的工作。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也希望委員去跟大家宣傳家裡有廚餘機是不錯的啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：我最近去看，我就覺得需要啊。"],["彭部長啓明：我也跟各位委員報告，廚餘堆肥的設施，雲林是一個特別的個案，當然有些縣市，連蒸煮也是，其實很容易變成地方的鄰避設施，這個也希望大家能夠了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：哎呀，所以啦，我時間有限。你們三年只通過一家合格的蒸煮廠，其他的就要靠養豬場一個一個去跟你通報。其實我覺得來自於中央的部分，真的還是有很多工作要做。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得7年前錯失了時機，現在回頭看，我覺得雲林縣政府就是摒除所有壓力去做，那是很好的。而雲林縣政府現在已經做出一個實績給大家看，因為他們的養豬戶數也很多，我也不相信他們個人廚餘的製造量會比其他縣市少，那他們怎麼做到的，對不對？雲林可以做到，那我相信其他縣市也都可以慢慢做到，現在是起步嘛，萬事起頭難，好不好？我在這邊還是會正式的推動全面禁止廚餘養豬，這才是一勞永逸的方式。"],["彭部長啓明：不過也提醒委員，我們必須感謝很多的養豬業者幫我們去化這種廚餘，不然廚餘量很大。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，了解。"],["彭部長啓明：如果很多餐廳的廚餘量無法去化的話，其實未來都會變成是一個成本在那個地方，那樣對於社會的影響也必須考慮在裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道如果那麼容易，如果那麼容易，當時張麗善一說全面禁止廚餘養豬，其他縣市通通都應該跟進，對不對？很多事情，容易的事情大家都會去做，但就是不容易嘛，好不好？但是我覺得今天既然發生這樣的事件，而且大家全部的認知都是跟廚餘有絕對的關係時，我覺得可以做就去推動，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝王鴻薇委員的發言。看起來應該全臺要來響應購買廚餘機，可以減量。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊、對啊，我覺得，我要去買了。"],["主席：謝謝兩位部長的答詢。","下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 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謝謝主席啊是不是請警政署張署長啊 張署長請喂啦署長 我們馬祖警察局啊 連山縣警察局齁那個 官有啦 兵沒有有啦 都補給了啦補了多少人六個"},{"start":30.083,"end":49.341,"text":"不夠啦 已經滿了啊沒有滿 要8個才夠我來再來這是有新的畢業的這些學生來我們再來做因為我們預算原額本來就已經很少了預算原額比編制原額少為了省一點錢嘛因為預算是比編制少一點點"},{"start":55.259,"end":75.05,"text":"那你不能說只有巡關以上的那底下沒有兵我們這次就是馬祖的部分因為他的人數少嘛就基層的這個部分如果少一個可能在量不足所以這是大概優勢補最多的啦好啦謝謝署長不管怎麼樣這個馬祖警察局"},{"start":76.075,"end":89.782,"text":"在署的領導之下跟我們縣政府還有地方人都配合的非常好謝謝委員署長請回是不是請召委請移民署移民署林署長請移民署林署長署長早上個禮拜啊這個發生一件大陸漁船在不是海峽中線喔在他們的領海公海在他們的領海"},{"start":105.854,"end":130.728,"text":"對我們海嵐二號裡面12隻星的海嵐弄斷兩隻星後來被海巡把他帶回來海巡帶回來以後大概就把他留置了並沒有拘留啊幹什麼等等都沒有那其中斷了兩星那現在中華電信我跟他們協調因為大陸那邊跟我們聯絡"},{"start":133.871,"end":160.825,"text":"大陸跟我們聯絡,那現在已經和解了那他賠了25萬那這案子已經到我們連江地檢署當然地檢署那邊依法行政嘛,他們會去處理那已經調解完畢了那這問題是不大了現在這個人,人在馬祖也沒有拘留,也沒有留置,也沒有收押那這個人怎麼回去,是個問題"},{"start":162.328,"end":191.309,"text":"我曾經也打電話給我們那個宜峻 宜峻組長宜峻組長也有去協調那這個人呢 現在兩種方式嘛一個是 署裡面很像講 預案要有大通證謝謝宜峻組長 多謝你協助 禮拜六禮拜六放假我還找他 他一直很熱心 在努力這個事情一個大通證大通證他說要見到人 大陸那邊講要見到人頭才能有大通證"},{"start":192.315,"end":203.684,"text":"因為我們現在海基跟陸委會跟對面已經不通了嘛已讀不回了嘛已經對幹啦 已經火車對撞了嘛沒有協調的人啦 是不是那現在勒一個大統政的方式一個是時間暫停一下時間暫停"},{"start":222.227,"end":251.819,"text":"好 一個用大通證如果大通證寄過來我們讓他回去但他大通證本來只有一種現在為了這個人他有兩種就是一次性的臨時大通證那今天會從黃旗送到我們議長的手上那有了這個大通證我們可以讓他就移民署這邊讓他出境移民署讓他出境如果沒有大通證的話呢那就是你們的預案很像是移民署的預案"},{"start":252.813,"end":282.004,"text":"也就是從他們派個漁船過來我們也雇用漁船在海峽中線把人叫出去署長你們有沒有研究妥適方案現在這個可能沒辦法做這樣子的一個處理沒辦法做這樣子的一個處理他沒有事啊 沒有事啊 目前啊人怎麼回去"},{"start":282.932,"end":309.866,"text":"你海巡把他帶回來 現在人怎麼給他弄回去你不能被人家求啊我們每天要提供他便當耶這個案子齁 因為這個他是應該是因為在我們海巡把他帶進來的啦應該是海巡帶進來的啦所以他並不是標準的所謂的偷渡啦他是等於是非法"},{"start":311.844,"end":319.686,"text":"斷纜 等於是非法他應該是涉及到國安的問題啦合解的現在沒有這個問題啦沒有斷纜的問題啦能合解啦案子已經合解啦跟委員報告那原來我們移送給地檢署以後地檢署檢察官裁定這個人是由移民署來收容收容 收容多久啊這就不是我們斷纜的原因已經消失了嘛因為他合解啦"},{"start":341.601,"end":362.592,"text":"那賠獎金也賠啦 25萬也收啦已經沒事啦那你們要把他養到嗎移民署總有預案嘛 總有個方案啊你移民署總要有個對策嘛對不對其實這個部分齁 這個部分我們要把他驅逐出境但是問題是他沒有大通證 大陸那邊不會收那他如果有大通證你們要不要放他走會啊"},{"start":367.899,"end":395.584,"text":"因為他本來就要虛擬出去那臨時的大通證你們可以接受嗎一次一次性的大通證那這個他本來影印本要送來 我說不行現在大通證是他回大陸的時候有大陸那邊在看的所以大陸那邊如果說他有發 正常應該是會收可以嗎"},{"start":396.294,"end":423.413,"text":"如果是他發的他應該就會收我們對海關會放棄嗎 我們的移民組會放棄嗎我們會發臨時出境許可 讓他一次性的 讓他回去也可以吧 好 那這樣就OK了啦那不然的話也要按照前例嘛 要漁船送回去另外署長 馬祖現在的人球有多少個你知道嗎大陸的人球有三十幾個你們沒關係喔 那個海巡要養到 要養到"},{"start":425.66,"end":436.868,"text":"他們留置啊 養稻 還蓋個房子給他們住勒還提供他們起居作息 海巡很多錢喔海安委會很多錢嗎 三十幾個海巡組出來有沒有來"},{"start":439.665,"end":463.719,"text":"沒有啊 我把名單開給你三十幾個不是一個兩個三個我們沒有留置三十幾個人報紙有一個有一個偷渡犯他八月底的時候已經執行期滿但是呢目前中國也不收所以還收容在移民署三十幾個 我名單開給你我們沒有 我們沒有留置三十幾個人好 那你們不要提供便當給他喔 把他餓死喔"},{"start":465.609,"end":475.794,"text":"我們沒有留置三十幾個人你問一下海巡隊嘛問一下海巡隊好不好我們會後來跟委員我們來跟委員了解不必查證我們絕對沒有留置但是我們會來跟委員請教這個數字主委我正好要找你了海巡蓋房子"},{"start":489.281,"end":500.55,"text":"我們讓他蓋了我當縣長的時候就把河堤讓他蓋了把土地開給你也都給你們了也都給你們了我們了解好你們蓋的進度怎麼樣現在"},{"start":502.246,"end":529.83,"text":"我們有委員講的是海巡隊我們海巡隊目前都是一進度大概是不是說明一下蓋到一樓目前蓋到一樓是我們請同仁組長說明一下好嗎是我有去看過好 組長你說明一下馬祖海巡隊的工程目前是進度大概百分之二十多左右"},{"start":530.592,"end":559.825,"text":"進入六月超前 那目前蓋到一樓那一定是明年底會能夠整個完工當初我跟你們海巡講你們海巡要蓋房子你不是要蓋個另外一個房子讓海巡弟兄住進去嗎你去拿個貨櫃租了幾十個幾百個貨櫃把它堆疊起來 現在漏水啦我跟你們講暫時臨時性的清澈蓋了以後你們將來這個房子蓋好剩下的房子給縣政府用嘛"},{"start":560.834,"end":573.722,"text":"你要浪費那個錢幹什麼我搞不懂你們海軍後勤人員在幹什麼我也跟你們建議了 你們也不聽不過這已經算了啦 沒關係啦木已成舟啦有需要蓋個房子嘛簡單的房子讓他住嘛用那個貨櫃屋 拿了幾十個 一百個把它疊起來 裡面跟鬼一樣就是貨櫃啊 還不是"},{"start":590.626,"end":596.99,"text":"他不是一個貨櫃一個貨櫃疊起來不是 我有去看那個臨時聽社我去看 臨時聽社也去看然後開工典禮我也去就是貨櫃啊"},{"start":606.809,"end":631.924,"text":"OK 來委員我們一定來把他們的居住環境做很好的改善好不好但是要蓋一棟房子來做臨時聽測這個部分可能還涉及土地等等各方面的問題跟土地什麼關係土地是我們提供給你的土地是縣政府提供給你沒有土地沒關係啊只是你們因為說錢要比較多一點就如此而已嘛"},{"start":633.875,"end":642.077,"text":"凡事還是靠需求,未來海巡,未來海巡隊的建築,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,未來海巡隊的建築完成以後,"},{"start":654.74,"end":672.254,"text":"委員我們一直有在走程序請問有人放心因為他必須要走三階段所以我們目前程序要走三四年嗎我早知道等你們程序走完才答應你們維持這個三階段我們一直沒辦法突破這一點我們很希望他被當作國防設施可是他沒辦法被當作國防設施你說走什麼程序 三階段對 三階段審議現在走到哪一階段"},{"start":681.67,"end":690.875,"text":"還在一階段還是二階段第二階段還在二階段我回去找縣政府發個函給你們我們跟你終止"},{"start":692.34,"end":713.539,"text":"我們跟你統治 你看好不好 你慢慢去三階段啦這個委員是氣話我了解但是三階段的問題我們一直非常非常希望能夠突破但是畢竟我們不是國防部所以他們辦法突破這個部分我們跟國防單位一直都交涉非常久把救生大隊把它弄走"},{"start":714.537,"end":740.889,"text":"然後把土地給你們不過委員我們已經走到第二階段也算是一個突破我跟你講你跟上面報告再給你兩個月時間齁不行的話我們終止齁我跟你講這個土地不給你們我知道委員的關心的程度讓委員說了這樣的氣話但是我們事實上走三階段是一直在努力你們話講 主委你話講再多沒有用啦我跟你講啦你給我耽誤了放在閒置的三四年了我們現在的發展讓你這樣子玩法不可能的"},{"start":742.148,"end":761.195,"text":"我們現在不可能讓你這樣玩啦我們也很關心它中間的設計所以在這個設計的過程當中我們也非常非常聽取地方的意見然後做了很多很多的修正委員也知道那些過程所以委員我們不是閒置喔我們不知道這個過程喔 署長你會後來跟我報告一下好不好哪有這樣閒置在這個地方呢好 另外還有一個問題 主委"},{"start":774.159,"end":788.691,"text":"前幾天發現一條豬死豬啊在我們北竿的秦碧海岸發現這條豬發現的是紅斑點是陽性反應是豬瘟你們怎麼處理"},{"start":789.816,"end":803.842,"text":"我們按照SOP非常謹慎的處理完畢,最後有焚毀跟掩埋焚毀?有焚毀跟掩埋你搞錯了吧?是掩埋欸焚毀以後才掩埋,我們不可能不焚毀他去哪裡焚毀?"},{"start":806.463,"end":830.74,"text":"委員我們焚毀而掩埋在北竿秦碧哪個焚化廠來焚毀跟委員報告那你沒有燒毀的地方嗎跟委員報告我們根據房間所的SOP我們有焚毀跟掩埋那事後我們會把那個整個的影片給委員看好不好請問有沒有放心我們不會不焚毀而掩埋最後一個問題那個李請回防疫有沒有來防疫齁"},{"start":836.601,"end":865.505,"text":"你們中正機場最讓人詬病的是國人進來回家歸心事件你們搞了一套人馬在那邊是不是排隊排好久好久我跟你講現在正好朱溫出來了這個到底朱溫怎麼出來了他是在台中發現的不是桃園你出來的話海關這邊又有一套防疫人員在那邊苟文來文去的裡面又搞一套全世界哪個國家這樣子搞"},{"start":866.311,"end":893.175,"text":"然後這個老闆有來找我 哎呀你如果這個不給我們做的話我們這些人要失業了我也從善如流啊 我也不砍你們預算啊不砍你們預算 但你服務態度要好 速度要快嘛對不對 你那個檢查呢翻箱倒櫃不是翻箱倒櫃 皮包打開 拉鍊打開你一個一個在那邊弄 共產黨也沒這樣搞啊全世界哪個國家 你舉例說明給我聽聽看"},{"start":894.565,"end":915.977,"text":"妳是署長嗎是 委員好 這表示真的大家都很嚴格在做執行那這個確實也是它的必要性因為畢竟非洲豬瘟它可以經由我們人為攜帶或我們的腳底等等這些病人會有交叉的感染那至於說我們的服務態度或者是速度方面我想我們都來個不是妳這個兩套是哪一國有"},{"start":918.556,"end":937.175,"text":"日本有嗎 馬來西亞有嗎 香港有嗎全世界已經39個國家都有非洲豬瘟那有人這樣搞兩套的防疫嗎我們通報現在台灣是變第40個那在亞洲地區不是我問你署長我們有哪一個國家搞兩套的這樣防疫像我們中正機場這樣即便台灣這麼嚴格我跟委員報告從我們"},{"start":942.225,"end":947.595,"text":"手提行李的氣質桶裡面去檢測那你松山跟高雄呢松山跟高雄要不要搞都搞幾個沒關係連馬祖也來搞金門也來搞問題很大啦"},{"start":955.047,"end":983.709,"text":"報告委員那松山跟這個台中的部分是因為腹地的關係但是因為他全部都要經過X光的做處理跟檢疫權的處理但是因為他人流比較多風險比較高所以這個部分其實也是幫我們旅客啦為什麼因為你在這個的首體安檢過假設你被檢出你不用罰可是你到X光機你被檢出那麼他就會裁罰裁罰一次就20萬"},{"start":985.391,"end":1008.669,"text":"這是你講的話啦 沒關係啦你不要在松山機場出事情不要在高雄出事情你不要在這個金門馬祖出事情金門馬祖出事情啊你也搞一套啊 你也搞一套來啊你叫哪一家公司那個也來啊我懷疑這個朱溫哪裡來是海邊來的啦 我跟你講啦所以今天海關署長關鍵署長也在這邊嘛其實我跟你講 他要從海邊來啊"},{"start":1013.712,"end":1034.377,"text":"海邊漁船走失的多少啊多少豬肉多少牛肉啊你進往這邊金門馬祖那邊去查幹什麼金門發生豬瘟了嗎金門發生口蹄馬祖豬肉也要管制金門跟馬祖差很遠欸差很遠很遠金門跟馬祖沒有互通你知道嗎金門人到馬祖要從松山機場轉機再過來一點關聯都沒有啊"},{"start":1041.963,"end":1071.261,"text":"所以你們的觀念要弄清楚好不好你在防疫署我覺得有狀況這次非洲豬瘟我想問題我直接的判斷應該從海邊出現尤其武吉港那邊是從海邊出現任何的可疑的我們都會追查國人同胞會把牛肉乾什麼豬肉乾帶進來我看機率不高啦你們要搞兩套人馬我看你們什麼時候沒完沒了了嗎"},{"start":1072.622,"end":1098.222,"text":"這個單位沒完沒了嗎 一直這樣搞下去搞兩套嗎國人在罵死了你知道嗎哪一個國人回國了嗎 被你們這樣拿去搞這個報告委員請體諒一下確實基於防疫的立場我不是體諒你啊 大家都要體諒你還是要加強提高整個的一個防疫的措施所以這個真的是有必要畢竟是我們背後的產生這麼大那你松山機長也來啊"},{"start":1099.008,"end":1106.714,"text":"小港機場也來啊 為什麼不來也都有在做評估都是國際嘛 金門馬祖也來啊你為什麼馬祖不搞一套 你搞一套給我那問題也很大 也要搞兩套的防疫嘛是不是 你們錢很多嗎"},{"start":1115.899,"end":1133.149,"text":"你們去想一想好不好你們自己回國的時候 你是走哪個通道啊你走綠色通道嗎你也去排隊假設我們從日本來的話 那麼我們就不會走我們走綠線就不會走那裡但是其他39個國家進來的就一定要走首檢區"},{"start":1134.91,"end":1164.294,"text":"香港 澳門 日本 馬來西亞 泰國有搞兩套嗎 還有我跟委員報告有搞兩套嗎 也沒看到豬瘟出現啊從我們氣質區的採樣送檢那個陽性比例達到10%所以這個是我們不得不謹慎對待之啦我跟你講啦 你海邊都注意一下啦海邊啦 我們跟海巡的協助海巡啦 海關啦 你對海邊 海岸啦你多注意一下啦莫名其妙這個死豬肉媽從哪裡跑出來"},{"start":1164.895,"end":1191.753,"text":"我們馬祖都跑出來啊是不是 難道是中山機場入境呢還是中山機場入境呢 然後跑到馬祖去傳染給豬嗎怎麼可能在馬祖的這個驗出是陽性以後我們就整個都公告禁止到11月1號 不行他的豬肉跟所有的加工品都不能到台灣跟所有的離島還有馬祖的雞蛋不能過來我們土生的雞蛋要檢查"},{"start":1192.959,"end":1217.957,"text":"那你台灣的雞蛋到馬祖區要被檢查 也要檢查喔也要貼我們馬祖養的羊沒有進雞蛋進什麼雞蛋我們父母親在馬祖辛辛苦苦養一些土雞女兒在台灣做月子 土雞帶到台灣去要經過你們防疫人員檢疫我請問這什麼道理啊我們是次等公民嗎 還是什麼"},{"start":1219.875,"end":1236.619,"text":"馬祖是不是中華民國的豬餵我現在跟你講雞了啦雞跟鴨跟羊啦我們羊肉帶來我們有養羊啊帶來你們也要說要檢疫啊要防疫啊以前要農會開證明欸農會怎麼開沒有道理嘛 是不是"},{"start":1240.322,"end":1269.874,"text":"我們的雞拿到台灣來 可是報告委員畢竟這個離島 包括馬祖來講 距離大陸太近了我們馬祖沒有因為沒有因為這種事情真的相對高所以我們要特別的注意因為從我們的這個資料顯示上來講其實有很多的風險都是來自於中國大陸所以我們更要針對這個邊境尤其是在離島的靠近我在馬祖生活的七十幾年我吃了以後啊"},{"start":1270.714,"end":1299.637,"text":"也沒病也沒幹什麼的很像你們這些檢疫人員看到你們就生病了我吃的都沒病啊 你是看了一眼就生病了很奇怪有那麼緊張嗎防疫是要做 我絕對同意但是你們嚴格到我們自己國人養的雞跟雞生的蛋跟我們國人養的羊也要經過你們防疫檢查才能夠進到台灣來"},{"start":1301.291,"end":1324.278,"text":"我們上飛機要檢查我從來沒有為難過你們召委你請坐沒關係你不要急好不好因為時間的關係召委已經站起來了你們回去檢討一下我剛才所講的問題如果有檢討的空間我們檢討但也請委員提到防疫是要全國一致性不能有任何的破口謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時4分）謝謝主席，有請警政署張署長。"],["主席：請張署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，我們馬祖警察局、連江縣警察局官有了，兵沒有。"],["張署長榮興：有，都補齊了。"],["陳委員雪生：補了多少人？"],["張署長榮興：6個。"],["陳委員雪生：不夠啦。"],["張署長榮興：預算員額已經滿了。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有滿，要8個才夠。"],["張署長榮興：我再來了解，如果有新的畢業學生來，我們再來考量。"],["陳委員雪生：因為我們預算員額本來就很少，預算員額比編制員額少，為了省一點錢。"],["張署長榮興：對，預算員額比編制員額少一點點。"],["陳委員雪生：你不能只有巡官以上的，底下沒有兵，你叫局長自己去做？"],["張署長榮興：這次馬祖的部分因為人數少，基層的部分如果少一個，可能在量能就會不足，所以這次大概是有史以來補最多的。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦，謝謝署長，不管怎麼樣，馬祖警察局在署的領導之下，跟我們縣政府和地方都配合得非常好。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：署長請回。召委，請移民署林署長。"],["主席：請林署長。"],["林署長宏恩：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：署長早。上個禮拜發生一件大陸漁船在他們的領海對我們海纜2號裡面12支芯的海纜弄斷2支芯，後來被海巡帶回來，海巡帶回來以後大概就留置了，並沒有拘留等等，其中斷了2芯，現在中華電信，我跟他們協調，因為大陸跟我們聯絡，現在已經和解了，它賠了25萬元，這個案子已經到連江地檢署，當然地檢署那邊依法行政，他們會去處理，已經調解完畢了，這個問題不大。現在這個人在馬祖，沒有拘留、沒有留置也沒有收押，但是人怎麼回去這個問題，我曾經打電話給貽俊組長，貽俊組長有去協調，現在有兩種方式，一個是大通證，大陸那邊講要見到人頭才有大通證，因為我們海基會和陸委會跟對面已經不通了，已讀不回了，已經對幹了，已經火車對撞了，沒有協調的人了，是不是？一個是大通證的方式，如果大通證寄過來，我們讓他回去，但是大通證本來只有一種，現在為了這個人，它有兩種，就是一次性的臨時大通證，今天會從黃岐送到局長的手上，有了大通證，我們移民署可以讓他出境；如果沒有大通證的話，移民署的預案好像是他們派個漁船過來，我們也僱用一艘漁船，在海峽中線把人交出去。署長，你們現在有沒有研究處置方案？"],["林署長宏恩：可能沒有辦法做這樣的處理。"],["陳委員雪生：他目前沒有事啊！人怎麼回去？你們海巡把他帶回來，現在人怎麼弄回去？不能變成人球啊！我們每天要提供他便當。"],["林署長宏恩：這個是海巡帶進來的，所以並不是標準的偷渡，斷纜是非法……他應該是涉及到國安的問題。"],["陳委員雪生：斷纜和解了，現在沒有斷纜的問題了，案子已經和解了啊！"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，我們移送地檢署以後，地檢署檢察官裁定這個人是由移民署收容。"],["陳委員雪生：收容？收容多久？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：後續就不是我們來處理。"],["陳委員雪生：斷纜的原因已經消失了，因為他和解了，賠償金也賠了，25萬元也收了，已經沒事了，你們要養他嗎？移民署總有個方案啊！移民署總要有個對策，對不對？"],["林署長宏恩：其實這個部分我們要把他驅逐出境，問題是他沒有大通證，大陸那邊不會收。"],["陳委員雪生：他如果有大通證，你們要不要放他走？"],["林署長宏恩：會啊！因為他本來就應該要被驅逐出境。"],["陳委員雪生：臨時的大通證你們可以接受嗎？一次性的大通證，他們本來影本要送來，我說不行，要正本。"],["林組長貽俊：現在大通證是他回大陸時，由大陸那邊在看的，所以大陸那邊如果有發，正常應該會收。"],["陳委員雪生：可以嗎？"],["林組長貽俊：如果是它發的，它應該就會收。"],["陳委員雪生：我們海關會放行嗎？移民署會放行嗎？"],["林署長宏恩：我們會發臨時出境許可，讓他一次性的，會讓他回去。"],["陳委員雪生：那這樣就OK了，不然的話也要按照前例，用漁船送過去。另外，署長你知道馬祖現在的人球有多少人嗎？大陸的人球有三十幾個，你們沒關係，海巡要養，他們留置啊！還蓋個房子給他們住，提供他們起居作息，海巡很多錢喔？海洋委員會很多錢嗎？三十幾個，海巡署署長有沒有來？沒有啊！我把名單開給你，三十幾個，不是1個、2個、3個。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有留置三十幾個人，倒是有一個偷渡犯8月底的時候已經執行期滿，但是目前中國也不收，所以還收容在移民署。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，已經有三十幾個，我提供名單給你參考。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有留置三十幾個人。"],["陳委員雪生：好，那你們不要提供便當給他，把他餓死喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有留置三十幾個人。"],["陳委員雪生：你問一下海巡隊，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會後來跟委員了解。"],["陳委員雪生：會後你查證，你再來跟我回報。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是不必查證，我們絕對沒有留置，但是我們會來向委員請教那個數字。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，海巡蓋房子，我們讓它蓋了，我當縣長的時候就核定讓它蓋，把土地給你們了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，委員很關心這個案子，我們了解。"],["陳委員雪生：現在進度怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員講的是海巡隊？"],["陳委員雪生：海巡隊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前都是依進度，目前蓋到一樓，我請組長說明一下細節，我有去看過。"],["陳委員雪生：組長說明一下。"],["洪組長伯昇：目前馬祖海巡的工程進度大概是百分之二十多左右，進度略為超前，目前蓋到一樓，預計明年底會整個完工。"],["陳委員雪生：當初我跟你們海巡講，你們海巡要蓋房子，你不是要蓋另外一個房子讓海巡弟兄住進去嗎？你去拿個貨櫃，租了幾十個、幾百個貨櫃，把它堆疊起來，現在漏水啦！我跟你們講用乾淨混凝土蓋嘛！"],["洪組長伯昇：那是暫時、臨時性的廳舍。"],["陳委員雪生：你蓋了以後，將來這個房子蓋好，剩下的房子給縣政府用嘛！你浪費這個錢幹什麼？我搞不懂你們海巡的後勤人員在幹什麼，我也跟你們建議了，你們也不聽，不過這算了，沒關係，木已成舟了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：臨時廳舍有需要，所以我們處理的臨時廳舍……"],["陳委員雪生：有需要就蓋個房子嘛！蓋個簡單的房子讓他住嘛……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這茲事體大。"],["陳委員雪生：你們就拿了幾十個、100個貨櫃屋把它疊起來，裡面跟鬼一樣。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是貨櫃屋疊起來。"],["陳委員雪生：就是貨櫃啊！還不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：它不是一個貨櫃一個貨櫃疊起來，我有去看臨時廳舍。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，你關心一下，去馬祖沒參觀廳舍嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，我有去看，臨時廳舍也去看，開工典禮我也去。"],["陳委員雪生：就是貨櫃，大貨櫃一個接一個，就是貨櫃啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一定把他們的居住環境做很好的改善，但是要蓋一棟房子來作臨時廳舍，這個部分可能還涉及土地等等各方面的問題，還有未來臨時廳舍的處理……現在是臨時廳舍的問題。"],["陳委員雪生：跟土地有什麼關係？土地是我們提供給你的，土地是縣政府提供給你的，只是因為你們說錢要比較多一點，就如此而已嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：凡事還是靠需求，我們未來海巡隊的建築完成以後……"],["陳委員雪生：你的貨櫃到時候要搬走，好了，我不談這個。岸巡的廳舍現在怎麼樣？土地也給你啦！我也親自陪縣長去看過，已經3年了，連動都不動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前在走三階段，不會連動都不動，我們一直在走程序。"],["陳委員雪生：我們把它收回來，你看怎麼樣？我們把土地收回來。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們一直在走程序，請委員放心。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼程序嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為它必須要走三階段，所以我們目前……"],["陳委員雪生：程序要走三、四年嗎？早知道我等你們程序走完才答應你們。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是要維持三階段，我們一直沒辦法突破這一點，我們很希望它被當作國防設施，可是它沒辦法被當作國防設施。"],["陳委員雪生：你們跟縣長說明一下。你說走什麼程序？三階段？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，三階段審議。"],["陳委員雪生：現在走到哪一階段了？還在一階段？還是二階段？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第二階段。"],["陳委員雪生：還在二階段？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，在第二階段。"],["陳委員雪生：我會去找縣政府發個函給你們，我們跟你終止，你看好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道委員一直非常關心……"],["陳委員雪生：你慢慢去三階段。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我了解委員這個是氣話，但是三階段的問題我們一直非常、非常希望能夠突破，但是畢竟我們不是國防部，所以沒辦法突破，這個部分我們跟國發單位交涉非常久。"],["陳委員雪生：當初救生大隊在那邊，我花了很多口舌把救生大隊弄走，然後把土地給你們。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們已經走到第二階段，也算是一個突破。"],["陳委員雪生：我跟你講，你跟上面報告，再給你2個月時間，不行的話，我們終止，這個土地不給你們了，我們有我們的規劃，怎麼可能那塊土地放在那邊讓你們亂搞。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道委員關心的程度讓委員說了這樣的氣話，但是我們走三階段一直在努力。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，你話講再多都沒有用，閒置了三、四年，我們現在的發展讓你這樣的玩法啊？不可能的！我們現在不可能讓你這樣玩。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員也很關心中間的設計……"],["陳委員雪生：你怎麼弄三階段、五階段是你們的事，怎麼會扯到我們呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以在設計的過程中，我們也聽取地方的意見，做了很多的修正，委員也知道那些過程。"],["陳委員雪生：我不知道那個過程。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不是閒置，委員應該也了解。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，你會後來跟我報告一下，哪有這樣閒置在那個地方的呢？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是，好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，另外還有一個問題，前幾天發現一條死豬，在我們北竿的芹壁海岸發現的，這條豬發現的是紅斑點，是陽性反應、是豬瘟，你們怎麼處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們按照SOP非常謹慎的處理完畢，最後焚毀和掩埋。"],["陳委員雪生：焚毀？"],["管主任委員碧玲：焚毀和掩埋。"],["陳委員雪生：你搞錯了吧，是掩埋耶！"],["管主任委員碧玲：焚毀以後才掩埋，我們不可能不焚毀而掩埋。"],["陳委員雪生：它去哪裡焚毀？在北竿芹壁哪個焚化場焚毀？那裡沒有燒毀的地方啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，根據防檢署的SOP，我們有焚毀和掩埋，事後我們會把整個影片給委員看，請委員放心，我們不會不焚毀而掩埋。"],["陳委員雪生：主委請回。召委對不起，最後一個問題，防檢署有沒有來？你們中正機場最讓人詬病的是國人進來回家歸心似箭，你們搞了一套人馬在那邊，排隊排好久、好久，我跟你講，現在正好豬瘟出來了，到底豬瘟怎麼出來的？它是在臺中發現的，不是桃園，你出來的話，海關那邊有一套防疫人員在那邊，狗聞來聞去的，裡面又搞一套，全世界哪個國家這樣搞？然後這個老闆有來找我，你這個如果不給我們做的話，我們這群人要失業了，我也從善如流啊！我也不砍你們的預算，但你服務態度要好、速度要快嘛！對不對？你那個檢查翻箱倒櫃，不是翻箱倒櫃，皮包打開、拉鍊打開，一個一個在那邊弄，共產黨也沒這樣搞啊！全世界哪一個國家是這樣？你舉例說明給我聽聽看。你是署長嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：是。委員好。這表示大家都很嚴格在執行，這個確實有其必要性，因為畢竟非洲豬瘟可以經由人為攜帶或我們腳底等等，避免會有交叉的感染；至於我們的服務態度或速度方面，我們都可以檢討。"],["陳委員雪生：你這兩套哪一國有？日本有嗎？馬來西亞有嗎？新加坡有嗎？香港、澳門有嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：在全世界已經有39個國家有非洲豬瘟……"],["陳委員雪生：有人這樣搞兩套的防疫嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：現在我們通報了，臺灣變第40個，在亞洲地區大概只有日本沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：不是，我問的是有哪一個國家搞兩套防疫，像我們中正機場這樣？"],["杜署長麗華：即便臺灣這麼嚴格，從我們手提行李的棄置桶去檢測非洲豬瘟，那個豬肉還是陽性。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦！松山跟高雄呢？松山和高雄要不要搞？多搞幾個沒關係，連馬祖也來搞，金門也來搞，問題很大啦！"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，松山跟臺中的部分是因為腹地的關係，但是因為它全部要經過X光和檢疫犬的處理。"],["陳委員雪生：中正機場沒有X光嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：因為它人流比較多、風險比較高，所以這個部分也是幫我們旅客，因為手提安檢過，假設你被檢出，你不用被罰，但是在X光機被檢出，就會裁罰，裁罰一次就是20萬元，這其實也是協助我們國人。"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係啦，這是你講的話啦。你不要在松山機場出事情、不要在高雄出事情，你不要在金門、馬祖出事情，你也搞一套來啊！你叫那個哪一家公司也來啊！我懷疑豬瘟是海邊來的啦！今天關務署署長也在這邊，其實我跟你講，它從海邊來，海邊漁船走私的多少啊！多少豬肉、多少牛肉，你盡往金門、馬祖這邊查幹什麼呢？金門發生口蹄疫，馬祖豬肉也要管制，金門和馬祖差很遠耶！金門和馬祖沒有互通，你知道嗎？金門人到馬祖要從松山機場轉機過來，一點關連都沒有，所以你們的觀念要弄清楚，好不好？你們防疫署我覺得有狀況，這次非洲豬瘟我直覺的判斷是從海邊出現的，尤其梧棲港那邊，是從海邊出現的。"],["杜署長麗華：任何可疑的，我們都會追查。"],["陳委員雪生：國人同胞會把牛肉乾、豬肉乾帶進來？我看機率不高啦，你們要搞兩套人馬，沒完沒了了嗎？這個單位沒完沒了嗎？一直搞下去，搞兩套嗎？國人都罵死了，你知道嗎？哪一個國人回國被你們這樣搞。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，請體諒一下，確實基於防疫的立場，而且是重大的傳染病……"],["陳委員雪生：不是我不體諒你，是大家要體諒你。"],["杜署長麗華：還是要加強提高整個防疫的措施，所以這真的有必要，畢竟背後的產值這麼大。"],["陳委員雪生：你講得很好啊，那你松山機場也來啊！小港機場也來啊！為什麼不來？都是國際線。"],["杜署長麗華：都有在做評估，但是因為腹地的關係。"],["陳委員雪生：金門、馬祖也來啊！為什麼馬祖不搞一套，你搞一套給我，問題很大啊！也要搞兩套的防疫，是不是？你們錢很多嗎？你們去想一想，好不好？你們自己回國的時候是走哪個通道？你是走綠色通道嗎？你也去排隊。"],["杜署長麗華：假設我從日本來的話，我們走綠線就不會走那裡，但是其他39個國家進來的就一定要走手檢區。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，香港、澳門、日本、馬來西亞、泰國有搞兩套嗎？也沒看到豬瘟出現啊！"],["杜署長麗華：從棄置區的採樣送檢，陽性比率達到10%，所以我們不得不謹慎對待之。"],["陳委員雪生：我跟你講，海邊多注意一下啦，海邊啦！"],["杜署長麗華：有，我們跟海巡的協助也很密切。"],["陳委員雪生：海巡、海關，你對海邊、海岸多注意一下，不然莫名其妙這個死豬不知道從哪裡跑出來，我們馬祖都跑出來，是不是？難道是中正機場入境的？還是松山機場入境的，然後跑到馬祖傳染給豬嗎？怎麼可能！"],["杜署長麗華：所以在馬祖驗出陽性以後，我們就整個都公告禁止到11月1日，它的豬肉和所有的加工品都不能到臺灣和所有的離島。"],["陳委員雪生：還有馬祖的雞蛋不能過來，我們土生的雞蛋要檢查，臺灣的雞蛋到馬祖去也要檢查、也要貼？"],["杜署長麗華：沒有禁雞蛋。"],["陳委員雪生：禁什麼雞蛋！我們父母親在馬祖辛辛苦苦養一些土雞，女兒在臺灣坐月子，土雞帶到臺灣去，要經過你們防疫人員檢疫，請問這是什麼道理？我們是次等公民嗎？馬祖是不是中華民國的？"],["杜署長麗華：我了解的是禁豬。"],["陳委員雪生：我現在跟你講雞、鴨和羊，我們也有養羊啊！你們也說要檢疫、要防疫啊！以前要農會開證明，農會怎麼開？沒有道理嘛！是不是？我們的雞拿到臺灣來……"],["杜署長麗華：畢竟離島包括馬祖距離大陸太近了，所以那邊的風險相對高。"],["陳委員雪生：我們馬祖沒有因為這種事情而有人傷亡。"],["杜署長麗華：因為從我們的資料顯示，有很多的風險都是來自於中國大陸，所以我們更要針對邊境，尤其是離島的、靠近中國大陸的，真的要特別注意。"],["陳委員雪生：我在馬祖生活了七十幾年，我吃了以後也沒病、也沒怎樣，哪像你們這些檢疫人員，看到你們就生病，我吃了都沒病，你是看了一眼就生病，很奇怪耶！有那麼緊張嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：防疫的事情……"],["陳委員雪生：防疫要做，我絕對同意，但是你們嚴格到我們自己國人養的雞和雞生的蛋、國人養的羊，也要經過你們的防疫檢查才能進到臺灣，我們上飛機要檢查耶！我從來沒有為難過你們……因為時間的關係，召委已經站起來了。"],["杜署長麗華：請體諒，全國有一致性。"],["陳委員雪生：你們回去檢討一下我剛才所講的問題，很多鄉親打電話駡我，你知道嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：如果有檢討的空間，我們會檢討，但也請委員體諒防疫是要全國一致性，不能有任何的破口，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢，謝謝署長。","洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，答詢結束。委員高金素梅、黃捷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164825","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164825","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5174de62fc0fe31ce6198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:55:13 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是要調整什麼公斤數當然食藥署講的沒錯那現在食藥署已經給你打臉說公斤數不重要是內容物才重要那你們兩個怎麼做呢"},{"start":136.614,"end":147.102,"text":"內容物當然海關一定會看每一個貨物到底有沒有含豬肉所以如果說食藥署現在回覆的25號回覆就是說他不贊成把公斤數調降是不是如此他回覆是要看內容物內容物是重點但公斤數是不是有調降的空間他們會再研議他們會再研議那你認為什麼時候可以告訴我們"},{"start":162.094,"end":181.953,"text":"你希望食藥署所做的那麼最後你們兩方所達成的共識是什麼告訴社會大眾我想目前食藥署應該有在救公斤數是不是要調降所以到目前為止我們這個公務所還是希望6公斤可以做調降你的方向是如此"},{"start":182.661,"end":195.344,"text":"以關務署的立場啦因為同仁檢驗的貨物非常的多啊我也知道琳瑯滿目槍毒一些什麼加熱菸所以你還是認為6公斤不管郵購或者是國外攜帶6公斤可以調降6公斤一個人6公斤的話比如說我們旅客不是你的方向是不是如此是"},{"start":206.268,"end":221.718,"text":"所以本席就不希望說在現階段大家應該要團結一致好好的防疫好好的建立那因為我們看到關護署跟食藥署是各執各執一詞那到底怎麼回事我們還是要理清楚那我們也希望你們兩方好好趕快去討論到底是怎麼樣要告訴社會大眾才不會讓民眾有更多一個問號跟質疑"},{"start":230.423,"end":237.585,"text":"謝謝委員知道我們跟食藥署都有保持密切聯繫你要趕快去檢討看到底是怎麼回事不要讓民眾有問號那現在我們上一次在經濟委員會裡頭你也提出你們增加了S光機那我們也提出你的檢疫犬到底夠不夠檢疫犬目前運用檢疫犬你大概有56隻那到底第一個數量夠不夠第二個他們的經濟方案"},{"start":258.59,"end":278.109,"text":"能不能應對這一些請做說明這個S光機的部分我們海關有118台的這個小型的S光機那我們都有進行這個太舊換新所以我們都會朝這個智慧科技查緝的方向去努力那至於檢疫權的部分是屬於防檢署的權責來請說明"},{"start":281.101,"end":296.031,"text":"保安委員我們現在全國有56隻的監獄犬那其中在桃園分屬是布置了29隻是是是那現在夠不夠如果當我們發生這樣的事情大家一律各個港口以及這個大家都希望量能夠夠"},{"start":297.752,"end":316.108,"text":"其實我們都有在逐年調整但他會碰到一個問題就是訓練檢疫權不是那麼容易的事情問題就在這裡那在早先的時候我們可能從美方跟他合作跟紐西蘭合作那紐西蘭後來他們說我們也要自己從COVID-19以後他就說不行我們就加不不不"},{"start":316.889,"end":334.551,"text":"不跟你合作了我也不賣你了當然我們知道有還是有精進空間我們支持所以你們必須各種管道要怎麼去調整我們希望就是大家團結一致來做報告委員我跟關務署我們在去年有個合作也就是"},{"start":336.621,"end":348.433,"text":"沒關係 你再順便資料給本席我們希望好好的能夠來防堵那量能要怎麼做 你想順便資料給本席 好吧好 接下來本席要請教警政署署長有來嗎"},{"start":355.702,"end":384.581,"text":"這個議題本來上次因為時間關係沒有問到但我很關心這個議題因為在臉書社群裡頭有說你警戒內部是有嚴重的數據造假文化所以有不少的員警來指控為了配合長官衝刺身簽的績效你會把A1類的死亡車禍先登錄在刑案後續再去做更改"},{"start":385.362,"end":406.141,"text":"要美化這個交通死亡的數據有沒有這個事他們還特別指出高雄桃園都有那這個會產生什麼問題呢如果屬實如果屬實這很嚴重的問題第一個受害家屬的家屬受害者的家屬他本來可以有這個意外險的這個200萬"},{"start":409.384,"end":427.392,"text":"但是他如果不是在A1族的他就沒有辦法領這他的損失非常的大第二個如果真正這個路口他是嚴重的而因為數字失真導致沒有辦法去改善那個路口那這個嚴重性更嚴重請教署長"},{"start":431.021,"end":451.266,"text":"包委員這個A1的這個部分是不會造假我們現在都是異化在做管理所以絕對不會有這種事情發生我們都異化那你這個所謂的數據這個部分如果是透過人工的各方面但是現在全部都是異化在做一個處理所以也沒有這些的這個這個應該是不實的"},{"start":453.487,"end":455.448,"text":"那如果不是 你們應該要澄清啊網路啊 每天一直傳啊你們應該要去澄清啊因為連受害的家屬 你到現在才知道經濟是有我們在加油的 AI要加油啊"},{"start":469.296,"end":472.018,"text":"因為你連受害的家屬他的影響那麼大他如果不是在A1組的報案的時候他連交通事故強制汽車責任險第六條的規定他就沒辦法 他這是兩百萬"},{"start":492.33,"end":494.871,"text":"對不對 所以影響本席剛才講的有兩項你要澄清嘛你一定要趕快澄清因為我們不希望行政部門有被挑戰這個信任誠信的危機對不對 你立即澄清嘛所以沒這回事因為有責我們檢討之"},{"start":511.857,"end":527.571,"text":"吳哲你必須要去澄清鼓勵我們的員警嘛對不對你贊同嗎贊同因為我們不希望讓民眾來做這個一樣又是問號的不好趕快去澄清趕快去澄清那要好你請回OK謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1246,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時55分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請關務署彭署長。"],["彭署長英偉：委員好！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長好！據媒體報導，10月25日非洲豬瘟疑現蹤臺灣，因目前規定是從國外攜帶或郵購6公斤以下自用食品回臺免申報。所以關務署於24日表示，將建請食藥署研議調整相關規定；但食藥署在隔天25日馬上發表聲明，認為內容物才是防疫重點，此爭議源於中國大陸食品螺螄粉、魔芋爽等產品在臺灣隨處可見。請教關務署當時是希望食藥署要改什麼？是公斤數還是內容物？因為它隔天就直接跟你說，它認為內容物才是重點，所以邊境管理到目前為止，食藥署跟你所提出的好像是各執一詞，請說明。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這是有關媒體的一則報導，因為在捷運上看到旅客攜帶兩大箱的螺螄粉，他認為這應該是走私進來的，所以國境大門洞開，都沒有在把關。我們有發新聞稿澄清，一個人自用可以帶6公斤的食品，這是食藥署的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是目前的規定大家都知道，只是你希望食藥署調整什麼？"],["彭署長英偉：公斤數，當然食藥署講得沒錯……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：公斤數，但是現在食藥署已經打臉你說公斤數不重要，內容物才重要。那你們兩個單位要怎麼做呢？"],["彭署長英偉：有關內容物的部分，當然海關一定會看每一個貨物到底有沒有含豬肉，含豬肉絕對不能進來嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為現在食藥署25日的回復是它不贊成把公斤數調降，是不是如此？"],["彭署長英偉：它回復的是要看內容物，內容物是重點，但公斤數是不是有調降的空間，他們會再研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他們會再研議？"],["彭署長英偉：他們會再研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你認為什麼時候可以告訴我們，你希望食藥署所做的以及最後你們兩方所達的共識是什麼，請告訴社會大眾。"],["彭署長英偉：我想目前食藥署應該有再就公斤數是否要調降的部分，會在近期研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以到目前為止，關務署還是希望6公斤可以調降？你的方向是如此。"],["彭署長英偉：以關務署的立場，因為同仁檢驗的貨物非常的多，委員也知道，琳琅滿目，槍、毒、加熱菸、電子煙，我們全部都要查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你還是認為不管是郵購或是從國外攜帶回來，6公斤可以調降？你的方向是如此嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：1個人6公斤的話，譬如說我們旅客通常……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，你的方向是不是如此？"],["彭署長英偉：是，我們希望調降公斤數。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的方向是如此，好。本席希望現階段大家要團結一致，好好地防疫和檢疫，因為我們看到關務署和食藥署還是各執一詞，到底怎麼回事，我們還是要釐清楚。我們也希望你們兩方趕快好好地去討論，到底是怎麼樣，要告訴社會大眾，才不會讓民眾有更多的問號跟質疑。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝委員指導，我們跟食藥署都有保持密切的聯繫，姜署長也有打電話給我，我們都有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你要趕快去協調，看到底是怎麼回事，不要讓民眾有問號。"],["彭署長英偉：是，瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：上一次在經濟委員會裡，你也有提出你們會增加X光機，我們也有提到你的檢疫犬到底夠不夠，目前你們所運用的檢疫犬大概有56隻，第一個，到底這個數量夠不夠？第二個，相關的精進方案能不能夠應對這一些？請做說明。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，X光機的部分，海關有118臺的小型X光機，我們都有進行汰舊換新，我們會朝智慧科技查緝方向去努力。至於檢疫犬的部分，因為它是屬於防檢署的權責。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請說明。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，現在我們全國有56隻檢疫犬，其中在桃園分署布置了29隻。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在夠不夠？當我們發生這樣的事情，大家會有疑慮，各個港口大家都希望量能能夠夠、技術能夠夠。"],["杜署長麗華：我們都有逐年調整，但會碰到一個問題，就是訓練檢疫犬不是那麼容易的事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，問題就在這裡。"],["杜署長麗華：在早先的時候，我們可能跟美方合作、跟紐西蘭合作，紐西蘭後來說他們要自己用，從COVID-19以後，它就說不行、不跟我們合作了，也不賣我們了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，我們知道還是有精進空間，我們支持，所以你們必須各種管道要怎麼去調整，我們希望大家團結一致來做。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們跟關務署在去年有個合作他們幫我們培訓……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，你再書面資料給本席，我們希望好好的來防堵，量能要怎麼做，書面資料給本席。"],["杜署長麗華：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教警政署，署長有來嗎？"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，這個議題上次因為時間的關係沒有問到，我很關心這個議題，因為在某臉書社群裡頭有說警界內部有嚴重的數據造假文化，所以有不少員警指控為了配合長官衝刺升遷的績效，會把A1類的死亡車禍登錄在刑案，後續再去做更改，美化交通死亡的數據，有沒有這種事？他們還特別指出高雄、桃園都有，這個會產生什麼問題呢？如果屬實，這是很嚴重的問題，第一個，受害者的家屬本來可以有意外險的200萬元，但是他如果不是在A1組的就沒有辦法領，所以他的損失非常大。第二，如果這個路口是嚴重的，而因為數字失真導致沒有辦法去改善那個路口，這個更嚴重，請教署長。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，A1的部分不會造假，我們現在都是e化管理，所以絕對不會有這種事情發生。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是e化，因為要登錄。"],["張署長榮興：我們都e化，所謂的數據如果是透過人工……但是現在全部都是e化處理，所以也沒有這些狀況，這個應該是不實的，我們不會這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果不實，你們應該要澄清啊！網路每天一直傳，你們應該要去澄清。"],["張署長榮興：我們會澄清。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為連受害的家屬，你到現在才知道警政署AI要加油，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：這部分我們來澄清，絕對不會造假。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為對受害的家屬影響那麼大，他如果不是在A1組的，他就沒辦法領交通事故強制汽車責任險第六條規定的200萬元，所以影響本席剛才講的兩項。"],["張署長榮興：這個不實的，我們會來澄清。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要澄清嘛！"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要趕快澄清，因為我們不希望行政部門有被挑戰信任、誠信的危機，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你立即澄清沒這回事，有則檢討之，若無就必須要澄清，鼓勵我們的員警，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你贊同嘛！"],["張署長榮興：贊同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們不希望讓民眾產生疑慮，這樣不好，趕快去澄清，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員不在。","林俊憲委員，林俊憲委員，林俊憲委員不在。","蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員不在。","請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51c8e3d5546c282b37198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:45:06 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公務署彭署長好 署長第一個問題請教你就是本來日本跟台灣是為惡的非豬瘟疫區那現在已經台灣已經有豬瘟的這個案例現在唯一的就只有日本是上次我在今天我會質詢日本的經驗可以去學習是"},{"start":35.501,"end":52.408,"text":"日本的廚餘日本有沒有廚餘是 日本有廚餘是家家戶戶都有廚餘嗎他們還是有產生廚餘廚餘的量廚餘的量沒有台灣多吧沒有你們去了解日本廚餘怎麼去產生因為我每天跟日本人生活我知道日本比較少廚餘他們廚餘不是像我們這個一般的這個方式在處理好 即便有廚餘"},{"start":65.197,"end":90.47,"text":"這出於那天在經濟委員會他提到說可以讓他變成飼料是液態的還是固態的他有先進的技術是過去我們有沒有這個技術我試著回答因為這是環境部的好就你業管的部分就日本的經驗您知不知道日本他的這個到底怎麼樣把他把這處變成這個飼料"},{"start":92.426,"end":114.961,"text":"是液態的還是固態的他要記住我們能不能取得是所以他們沒有邊境管制他們依然可以確保是非豬瘟國所以這是我們可以學習的然後部長說我們如果可以取得授權的話我們願意馬上去做對 部長已經交代了就是委員會先執行完後可以的話我們馬上去日本去看是看看他們到底是用什麼方式來變成飼料"},{"start":116.789,"end":137.959,"text":"那就完全就解決這個問題了嘛一方面可以解決廚藝的問題一方面可以避免這個豬瘟因為它已經失調化失調化就完全沒有病毒了嘛這個有沒有計畫馬上去日本去考察一下我們去看也可以經濟委員會去看也可以"},{"start":139.148,"end":154.561,"text":"報告委員我們已經有做對日本這個處於其實他們大部分是用剩食飼料化那技術面的話有液態飼料也有乾燥的飼料兩個技術都有在使用這兩個飼料不管液態都能夠"},{"start":158.824,"end":175.361,"text":"杜絕這個豬瘟的病毒嘛對於有含肉疑慮的原料的話人家已經行之已有年了為什麼我們為什麼不學他們的技術或者取得授權我們要還用最比較這個比較沒有效率的方式做邊際檢查然後要那麼多人力"},{"start":176.707,"end":205.683,"text":"報告委員台灣也有一場是做把這個剩餘的食品變剩食變成那個固態飼料台灣有五千多場耶只有一場做成乾燥飼料的有一場為什麼沒有辦法全面這可能涉及成本的問題我覺得這部分跟去跟日本學習如果取得授權盡快如果可行的話連評估可行的話盡快跟日本代表處"},{"start":206.867,"end":229.202,"text":"趕快去日本實際去看一下實際的狀況那我們還會另外再安排那個署長另外再安排是不是經濟委員會也去日本看一下到底是他們怎麼樣把廚餘處理變成私料化這個過程是怎麼樣技術是怎麼樣我們可能要盡快去看一下你們速度不能比立法院慢"},{"start":231.135,"end":252.123,"text":"你們租代表署有沒有農業部的同僚有有你們趕快去收集資料明天我就去看也可以啊這個防疫如作戰另外你們再逃一逃二你們是委外你們新竹分數到底有沒有同仁在那邊"},{"start":252.825,"end":273.608,"text":"我報告委員您那天這個質詢以後那就交代桃園分署都要輪流輪班24小時都一定要有監督人員在那裡保健公司固然有受過訓練他專業度沒有比我們房間署的同仁還有如果有什麼有什麼狀況房間署可以馬上處理嘛"},{"start":274.707,"end":291.819,"text":"而且針對高風險 包括高風險台港澳 港澳中他是強制要檢查一定要檢查除了日本之外 全部一定要檢查他如果檢查出來他有帶豬肉當場丟掉就沒事你們數據來看你們從這個107年到114年"},{"start":301.295,"end":307.28,"text":"總共還有2619件這2000多件是經過你們的安檢區到海關被攔檢下來嘛對不對你看還有2000多件漏網之魚幹嘛呢手檢區修正一下是手檢區的數量你的手檢區的數量那真正被查法有多少查法900多"},{"start":325.534,"end":341.33,"text":"基本上這樣你經過首檢區不是只是一個形式而已你要有專業的人去看到底有沒有而且要看得仔細一排十個人在那邊大部分在協助搬運行李通過速度很快我是懷疑到底有沒有人在看"},{"start":343.476,"end":352.906,"text":"我們可以來檢討這個時期的這個流程跟作業將近2600多件2600多件他就把它丟掉就沒事嘛你說還有900多件是要裁罰的在裁罰是在彭署長那邊又被攔下第二關被攔下來對不對沒有錯嘛在我們這邊應該到那邊就不會重複裁罰"},{"start":367.026,"end":392.661,"text":"對嘛你們在前第一線沒有裁罰嘛不是我跟委員報告就是這個我們檢查的是旅客帶的手檢的隨身攜帶S光機是針對我們的行李對我知道所以兩個是不一樣的那手檢的部分呢手檢就是剛剛講的2600多件對2600多件之中對嘛那都不會裁罰嘛那你東西拿掉就好裁罰丟掉不是這個怎麼會裁罰呢這個"},{"start":394.266,"end":414.575,"text":"你那個良福保全再做安全的丟掉丟掉就不用裁罰了嗎不用裁罰那你裁罰900多千是什麼裁罰應該是那個是托運行李還是手提行李S光機確診是S光機是托運行李嘛對不對是是是所以900多千是托運行李是好在第一關你們這個委託的這個保險公司做的這個手提行李的檢查"},{"start":415.155,"end":431.112,"text":"你們撿出200多件丟掉就沒事嘛是丟掉他不就沒有裁罰的問題是是是所以目前這樣子完全沒有裁罰然後呢這個托運行李你們被罰了這個700多件托運行李嘛"},{"start":434.41,"end":445.484,"text":"你來你來充飲行李是被罰是全部充飲行李嘛對不對各位報告因為手提行李的話是在桃園機場是經過房間署百分之百手檢確認他沒有帶違規產品才讓他通過"},{"start":448.188,"end":467.749,"text":"那接下來海關這邊S光機還會再檢查那個就是拖運的行李的部分所以被罰的全部拖運行李嘛那被罰的部分有兩種樣態一種是動物產品一種是植物產品是嘛反正所有被裁罰的都是拖運行李嘛所提行李在你們第一關他看到不管有沒有看到啦他看到只要過了就沒事了嘛對不對"},{"start":468.65,"end":496.777,"text":"不管有沒有看到因為我們托運行李我們首提行李檢查是針對高風險的那個非洲諸多國家那有些國家像日本像歐美但我都知道我說你們檢查第一個要專業第一個要確實那麼多的每天大概這個六七萬人入境六七萬人入境他的首提行李他可能在機場買一個豬肉產品他就放著那你如果沒有檢查出來那就是你們第一線防疫局的問題"},{"start":497.617,"end":513.69,"text":"對不對現在採訪都是經過S光機透過這個托運行李看到才採訪對不對跑不掉因為他托運行李嘛那手力行李第一個你們安檢的品質怎麼樣專業怎麼樣把關很重要每天六七萬人入境你如果檢查確實的話好"},{"start":518.547,"end":535.253,"text":"他就把他拿掉對不對對就不會是被裁罰了對然後還有第二道關卡就是到了那個我們的劉那個什麼檢疫犬的那個地方檢疫犬是第二道有幾隻檢疫犬我目前全國有56隻56隻56隻這個你如果要檢查就要很確實是不能抽檢是"},{"start":543.251,"end":564.044,"text":"這個防疫的關卡很重要所以我最後建議就是第一線路徑第一關所有的這個手裡行李案件的部分一定要專業而且要確實不能留意形式另外你說有這個犬隻要在第二波第二關這個也要確實如果被犬隻查到怎麼辦"},{"start":565.678,"end":592.559,"text":"一定罰那個這個只要有肉製產品就當場就開立20萬那假設他不繳就回去了如果犬隻查到代表說你那一關那一關跳過了那一關沒有你們第一關沒有查出來是是我們也在追這種要吻合啦要相相所以啊這個第一關很重要啊署長新竹分屬一定要再加油桃園分屬桃園分屬還是新竹分屬"},{"start":596.087,"end":597.777,"text":"已經改成叫桃園分數桃園分數 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1140,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時45分）謝謝主席。請農業部防檢署杜署長和關務署彭署長。"],["主席：請杜署長和彭署長。"],["杜署長麗華：委員好！"],["邱委員志偉：署長，第一個問題請教你，本來日本和臺灣是唯二的非豬瘟疫區嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是現在臺灣已經有豬瘟的案例，現在唯一沒有的只有日本，上次我在經濟委員會質詢，日本的經驗可以學習，日本有沒有廚餘？"],["杜署長麗華：日本有廚餘。"],["邱委員志偉：是家家戶戶都有廚餘嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：他們還是有產生廚餘，但是它……"],["邱委員志偉：但是廚餘的量沒有臺灣多吧！"],["杜署長麗華：沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：你去瞭解日本的廚餘是怎麼產生的。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：因為我每天都跟日本人生活，所以我知道，日本比較少廚餘，他們的廚餘不像我們是用一般的方式在處理。即便他們有廚餘，那天在經濟委員會，他提到可以讓它變成飼料，是液態的還是固態的？它有先進的技術，過去我們有沒有這個技術？"],["杜署長麗華：我試著回答，因為這是環境部的權責。"],["邱委員志偉：好，就你業管的部分，日本的經驗你知不知道？到底日本是怎麼把廚餘變成飼料？是液態的還是固態的？它的技術我們能不能取得？他們沒有邊境管制，卻依然可以確保是非豬瘟國，這是我們可以學習的。然後部長說，如果我們可以取得授權的話，我們願意馬上去做。"],["杜署長麗華：對、對，部長已經交代了。就是委員那天質詢完以後，部長已經交代了。"],["邱委員志偉：可以的話，我們馬上就去日本看，看看他們到底是用什麼方式把它變成飼料？那就完全解決這個問題了嘛！對不對？一方面可以解決廚餘的問題，一方面可以避免豬瘟，因為它已經飼料化，飼料化就完全沒有病毒了嘛！你們有沒有計畫馬上去日本考察一下？我們經濟委員會去看也可以。"],["程副所長梅萍：報告委員，我們已經有針對日本的廚餘，其實他們大部分是將剩食飼料化，技術面的話，有液態飼料，也有乾燥的飼料，兩個技術都有在使用。"],["邱委員志偉：這兩種飼料，不管是液態或固態都能夠杜絕豬瘟的病毒嘛！"],["程副所長梅萍：對於含有肉疑慮的原料，他們也是……"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛！所以人家已經行之有年了，為什麼我們不學他們的技術或取得授權，我們還是用比較沒有效率的方式在做邊境檢查，然後還要那麼多的人力。"],["程副所長梅萍：報告委員，臺灣也有一個廠是把剩餘的食品、剩食變成固態的飼料。"],["邱委員志偉：臺灣有五千多個廠，只有1個廠在做？"],["程副所長梅萍：做成乾燥飼料的有1個廠。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼沒有辦法全面？"],["程副所長梅萍：這可能涉及成本的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這部分要跟日本學習，如果要取得授權就儘快，如果你們評估可行的話，就儘快跟駐日代表處去日本看一下實際的狀況。"],["程副所長梅萍：是。"],["邱委員志偉：署長，我們還會另外再安排，是不是經濟委員會也去日本看一下到底他們是怎麼樣把廚餘處理變成飼料化，這個過程是怎麼樣、技術是怎麼樣，我們可能要儘快去看一下。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的速度不能比立法院慢。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["邱委員志偉：駐日代表處有沒有農業部的同仁？"],["杜署長麗華：有。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！你們叫他趕快去蒐集資料，明天就去看也可以。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["邱委員志偉：防疫如作戰。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，桃一、桃二你們是委外，你們新竹分署到底有沒有同仁在那邊？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，您那天質詢以後，我們就有交代桃園分署要輪流、輪班，24小時都一定要有監督人員在那裡。"],["邱委員志偉：不能只交給保全公司，保全公司固然有受過訓練，但是他們的專業度比不上我們防檢署的同仁，如果有什麼狀況，防檢署可以馬上處理嘛！而且針對高風險的部分，比如港、澳、中，它是強制要檢查，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：一定要檢查。"],["邱委員志偉：對，除了日本之外，全部一定要檢查。"],["杜署長麗華：是、是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果檢查出來有帶豬肉，當場丟掉就沒事嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，棄置。"],["邱委員志偉：就你們的數據來看，107年到114年總共還有2,619件，這兩千多件是經過你們的安檢區被海關攔檢下來，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你看，還有兩千多件的漏網之魚，是不是這樣？"],["杜署長麗華：手檢區，修正一下，這是手檢區的數量。"],["邱委員志偉：手檢區的數量，那真正被裁罰的有多少？"],["杜署長麗華：裁罰九百多件，一年有九百多件。"],["邱委員志偉：基本上，經過手檢區不只是形式而已，你要有專門的人去看到底有沒有，而且還要看得很仔細，一排有10個人在那邊，大部分都是在協助搬運行李，通過的速度很快，我很懷疑到底有沒有在看。"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們可以來檢討實際流程及作業內容。"],["邱委員志偉：好。你檢查出來將近兩千六百多件，這兩千六百多件把它丟掉就沒事嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你說還有九百多件是要裁罰的，但是裁罰是在彭署長那邊，就是第二關被攔下來的，對不對？沒有錯嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：沒有，到那邊應該就不會重複裁罰。"],["邱委員志偉：你們第一線沒有裁罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：不是，我跟委員報告，我們檢查的是旅客帶的手檢的、隨身攜帶的，X光機針對的是行李，所以兩個是不一樣的。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，那手檢的部分呢？"],["杜署長麗華：手檢的就是剛剛講的兩千六百多件。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，多少？"],["杜署長麗華：兩千六百多件之中有九百多件被裁罰。"],["邱委員志偉：對嘛！那都不會裁罰嘛！東西丟掉就好了。"],["杜署長麗華：不是……"],["邱委員志偉：怎麼會裁罰？那個是良福保全在做安檢的。"],["杜署長麗華：對，丟掉。"],["邱委員志偉：丟掉就不用裁罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：不用裁罰。"],["邱委員志偉：那你裁罰的九百多件是怎麼裁罰的？是托運行李還是手提行李？"],["杜署長麗華：確認是X光機。"],["邱委員志偉：是托運行李嘛！對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是、是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以九百多件是托運行李。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，在第一關你們委託的保全公司所做的手提行李檢查，檢查出了兩百多件，但丟掉就沒事了嘛！就沒有裁罰的問題嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以目前這樣是完全沒有裁罰，而托運行李被罰了七百多件，被罰的全部都是托運行李嘛！對不對？"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，因為手提行李在桃園機場是經過防檢署100%的手檢，確認他沒有攜帶違規產品才會讓他通過，接下來海關這邊的X光機還會再檢查托運行李的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：所以被罰的全部都是托運行李嘛！"],["亓副組長隆祥：但是被罰的有兩種樣態，一種是動物產品、一種是植物產品。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛！所有被裁罰的都是托運行李嘛！手提行李在你們第一關時，不管他有沒有看到，只要過了就沒事嘛，對不對？不管有沒有看到哦！"],["亓副組長隆祥：因為手提行李100%檢查是針對高風險的非洲豬瘟國家，有些國家像日本或歐美的話，它可能就不會通過我們的手檢區。"],["邱委員志偉：這個我都知道，我是說你們的檢查第一個要專業，第二個要確實，每天有六、七萬人入境，他們的手提行李，他可能是在機場買了一個豬肉產品，然後他就放著，如果你沒有檢查出來，那就是你們第一線防檢署的問題，對不對？現在裁罰的都是托運行李經過X光機看到的才裁罰，對不對？跑不掉，因為它是托運行李。而手提行李的部分，第一個，你們安檢的品質怎麼樣？專業怎麼樣？把關很重要，每天六、七萬人入境，如果你檢查確實的話，他馬上就把它拿掉，對不對？就不會被裁罰了嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，然後還有第二道關卡，就是到了我們檢疫犬那邊，檢疫犬是第二道關卡。"],["邱委員志偉：現在有幾隻檢疫犬？"],["杜署長麗華：目前全國有56隻。"],["邱委員志偉：56隻？"],["杜署長麗華：56隻。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你要檢查，你就要很確實，不能抽檢，防疫的關卡很重要，所以我最後的建議是，第一線、入境的第一關，所有手提行李的安檢部分一定要專業和確實，不能流於形式。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你說有犬隻在第二關，這個也要確實。"],["杜署長麗華：好，會。"],["邱委員志偉：如果被犬隻查到要怎麼辦？要不要罰？"],["杜署長麗華：一定罰，只要有肉製產品，當場就開立20萬，假設他不繳，那就要回去了。"],["邱委員志偉：如果被犬隻查到，代表說前一關就跳過了，你們第一關沒有查出來。"],["杜署長麗華：是，我們也在追，這種要相吻合。"],["邱委員志偉：所以第一關很重要，署長，新竹分署一定要再加油，謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：那是桃園分署。"],["邱委員志偉：還是新竹分署？"],["杜署長麗華：已經改成桃園分署，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接下著請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da5145507f036b956ae7198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:38:37 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web在這個所謂消費者這邊申報這邊之外包括"},{"start":274.853,"end":287.817,"text":"這個平台這邊相關的建制包括寄建人收建人這些都必須要落實之外實名制之外最重要的我還是建議啦就是如果我們這樣徹底防範非洲豬瘟的話這個所謂急運然後掃描安全通管的問題其實還是要解決如果說預算有限因為像我們在我其實本來很想問你們這一次海關的預算到時候到財委會的時候要守住啊"},{"start":302.841,"end":319.897,"text":"不要被在野黨大刀一揮又揮掉到時候狗狗的這個費用啊這個關務署相關的海關人員的費用啊加急清貼啊這個部分你們要好好守住啊因為守住也是守住我們的國安的部分守住我們的這個非洲豬瘟"},{"start":320.718,"end":323.961,"text":"不要讓他進來台委會委員都非常支持海關的預算所以我要講的就是說我們的預算不足的話其實也可以從報關行或者是業者這裡來讓設備做一些改進然後財政部這裡可以給一些租稅上面的優惠"},{"start":338.513,"end":351.616,"text":"那也許這樣子我們可以在設備上面就是他們有更新設備然後在設備上更新的時候我們可以給一些租稅上面的優惠鼓勵他們就是一起在所謂邊境管制上面尤其是像我們講的這種所謂的中國急運寄來的這樣的設備上面能夠做一些更新這樣也可以減輕我們自己的負擔因為畢竟這個是可能要官民一起聯手才能夠守住不要讓豬瘟進來 守住我們的台灣豬"},{"start":365.992,"end":368.646,"text":"謝謝委員的指導 我們會朝這方面去努力好 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WAY，在消費者這邊、申報這邊之外，包括平臺這邊相關的建置，包括寄件人、收件人，這些都必須要落實實名制之外，最重要的我還是要建議，就是如果我們真的要澈底防範非洲豬瘟的話，這個所謂的集運，然後掃描、安全、通關的問題還是要解決。"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員楚茵：如果預算有限，因為我們現在……其實我本來很想說，你們這次海關的預算到財委會的時候要守住，不要被在野黨大刀一揮又揮掉了，到時候狗狗的費用、關務署相關海關人員的費用、加給和津貼，這個部分你們要好好的守住，因為這也是守住我們的國安和非洲豬瘟的疫情，不要讓它進來。"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員，如果財委會的委員都非常支持海關的預算，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我要講的就是，如果我們的預算不足的話，其實也可以從報關行或是業者這裡來讓設備做一些改進，然後財政部這裡可以給一些租稅上的優惠，就是他們有更新設備，然後在設備更新時，我們可以給予租稅上的優惠來鼓勵他們，我們一起從邊境的管制上，尤其是像我們講的這種所謂中國集運寄來的部分，在相關設備上能夠做一些更新，這樣也可以減輕我們自己的負擔，畢竟這個可能要官民一起聯手才能夠守住不要讓豬瘟進來，守住我們的臺灣豬。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝委員的指導，我們會朝這方面去努力。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","接下來請何欣純委員，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},{"id":"164822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da510c027bb6497cdbd4198a631d8f132014a1aee410a7bf192f5217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:32:23 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