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謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐請問民進黨團的柯總召好民眾黨團的黃總召"},{"start":1853.666,"end":1859.638,"text":"OK 好的好的 我們等柯總召跟 等一下 張副總召一到我們就開始"},{"start":1883.413,"end":1887.158,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召柯總召 麗玲 謝謝 謝謝謝謝陳書記長 謝謝謝謝好 柯總召來了 大家預備上安全帶綁好柯總召到了"},{"start":1904.841,"end":1933.328,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝謝謝各位列席的各位官員今天我們要來協商兩個題目一個是華家沙風災特別條例的制定案二是丹納斯颱風特別條例的修正案這兩案都是我們因應我們花蓮馬太安菸塞湖災後復原重建的事宜我們再一次要跟花蓮災區的朋友表達最高的致意我們三個黨團所有立法委員對於這一次已經有19位"},{"start":1934.628,"end":1961.971,"text":"花蓮、光復鄉、菸塞湖罹難的以及失蹤五位、受傷157位大家都表示心裡非常的難過也希望生者能夠平安、逝者能夠安息我們基於這樣的一個心情以及責任來定定為了馬太安一些重建的事宜我們所有的黨團幹部即將要進行討論那現在要介紹一下今天我們列席的官員我們行政院阮副秘書長歡迎你"},{"start":1964.147,"end":1992.755,"text":"行政公共工程會陳主任委員 歡迎您足跡總署陳副足跡長 歡迎您還有原住民副組委 股仲副組委 歡迎您環境部彭部長 歡迎您衛福部石部長 歡迎您我們司法院林廳長 歡迎您經濟部賴次長 歡迎您交通部林次長"},{"start":1994.037,"end":2010.726,"text":"歡迎您農業部黃次長 歡迎您教育部劉次長 歡迎您內政部吳次長 歡迎您如果還有"},{"start":2027.632,"end":2045.503,"text":"數位發展部的葉次長 對不起 歡迎您財政部的國庫署的陳署長 歡迎您法務部廖參事 歡迎您國家通訊傳播委員會陳代理主委 歡迎您文化部年副局長 歡迎您還有一個勞動部理事長 歡迎您"},{"start":2053.974,"end":2074.147,"text":"有 第二個節目好 各位黨團幹部我們今天這兩個重要的題目因為影響到它我們今天要進行的非常大的一個區別一個是修正案 一個是制定案所以我要先聽一下各位黨團幹部請表達寶貴的意見請柯總召發言 副總召請準備"},{"start":2076.67,"end":2102.229,"text":"院長 各位協商代表 各位列席官員 大家好今天這個協商的原因 我想院長也很清楚就是民進黨黨團有先前有發函請求韓院長協商那國民黨黨團也相對的也提出了要求韓院長照理協商所以我們今天大家都很清楚有一個共同目的就是說 這禮拜五剛好是宴會"},{"start":2103.51,"end":2123.226,"text":"只要我們對兩黨朝野對於這個整個特別條例上有共識的話我們禮拜五是可以通過的那為什麼我要這樣講呢我相信沒有一個人就是說會阻擋這個大家都同樣的心情如今如後"},{"start":2124.307,"end":2144.853,"text":"越近越好就是大家說要和諧就好所以這個目標方向都是一致救人救災之心大家都一致所以我今天才是很懇切的講就是說在這個大選者底下我們希望大家有一個共同的方向"},{"start":2146.294,"end":2173.354,"text":"今天集體是和平的大家都是很快樂的很期待的心情來完成這個法案的協商只是之故要如何處理我想這個等一下待會請行政部門對於他提的修正案其實說明尤其對於整個裡面只有改一個嘛就是預算"},{"start":2175.094,"end":2194.906,"text":"是提高到六百到八百五嘛我們建議行政院大概也清楚可能要到六百到九百大概請行政院說明國民黨他們的主軸或是副總召也是當地的立委他也很清楚他也很清楚他們的看法"},{"start":2195.926,"end":2220.848,"text":"不管如果這兩個看法都是一致的只要都是方向的 都講好的話那禮拜五這兩個法案同時在議員通過那就功德也滿以上我代表民主黨代表民主黨表示我們的立場 謝謝好 謝謝柯總召大愛無私的發言 謝謝我們先請副總召發言 張啟凱副總召請準備"},{"start":2224.642,"end":2249.232,"text":"謝謝院長今天的召集我要特別強調我們過去在立法院審查過非常多的不管是法律案的條例有非常非常的多各種性質不同都有那對於重建條例不管是在這個88莫拉克風災之後的條例20天"},{"start":2250.638,"end":2279.441,"text":"朝野就把它修正完成過程中也沒有這麼多的間鋒插針也沒有這麼多的是是非非 網軍出動等等大家能夠同心來救災當然現在時空環境不同我們雖然在這麼艱困的環境之下我們也希望執政者本於對災區災民同理心即便大家不同的看法明天都能夠一併來處理因為我們就循民主的程序來進行"},{"start":2281.14,"end":2305.368,"text":"即便有不一樣的邏輯跟看法但是都是為災民好我想這個依照相關的議事規則來處理完之後我們盡快把它公佈 盡快來實施那至於各個立場 即便在條文上看法有所不同甚至在條例的具名上有所不同我們覺得這個都是"},{"start":2306.388,"end":2329.216,"text":"都為災民好這個都是都是可取的但是我要特別表達現在唯一不同的地方就是這是國內第一個艷澀湖釀成這麼大的一個不幸的事件這本身的性質跟旦那斯颱風有所區別那是一個風災把屋頂掀掉的風災"},{"start":2330.925,"end":2357.81,"text":"而這一次的堰塞湖事件是水災而且是嚴重的水災這個水有到4米5米6米高的水造成這麼大的一個水災跟我們當時在討論這個丹納斯颱風淹水是30公分還是50公分那是完完全全性質完全不同的一個災情"},{"start":2359.35,"end":2388.41,"text":"完全不同的災情我們要把它放在同一個條例裡面真的是有一點感覺有點漢格而且更重要的是光復鄉本身是一個原住民部落鄉親佔了超過一半的一個鄉鎮所以呢很多在部落上的一些協商跟溝通還要依照原住民的基本法"},{"start":2389.981,"end":2413.156,"text":"來做相關的這些重建 部落溝通 這些工作都是跟台南嘉義的丹納斯風宅有很大的區隔而且在中華民國史上 夜色胡走造成這麼大的一個不幸的事件"},{"start":2414.775,"end":2437.078,"text":"我們今天把它獨立出來 成為一個條例這更可以讓後人瞭解 在當時一個堰塞湖這麼大的一個不幸的災難不只可以留給我們的政府來做參考也給後人來做一個警惕所以呢 有它獨立性跟它特殊性"},{"start":2438.369,"end":2454.42,"text":"跟他的民族各個民族的複雜性我們都要予以尊重所以我們才要把他特別獨立出來當然柯總召講的我們都尊重但是大家都是為災民好即便是在這個"},{"start":2457.557,"end":2480.107,"text":"提案上有不同的看法我們就希望大家很理性的循民主跟法治法律的方式依照立法院國會的議事規則我們盡快來處理也希望禮拜五 明天不要讓在民再等了 今天第38天了不要讓在民再等 我們要盡快來完成立法的工作"},{"start":2481.107,"end":2499.298,"text":"好 謝謝副總統的發言接下來張啟凱委員發言之後 持續上我會請提案的委員鄭天才委員以及提修正案的鍾嘉賓委員各自發言完就要請陳政委請您準備 好嗎沒有 我提修正案的 你們就派一個代表修正案 好不好好 那麻煩請張啟凱 張副總統請"},{"start":2501.943,"end":2521.059,"text":"我們要先為花蓮的鄉親加油也感謝那麼多的產職超人、清瑜志工大量湧進花蓮復建、復原、重建的路非常漫長不要斷念我們非常感謝韓院長今天召集協商"},{"start":2522.082,"end":2539.864,"text":"民眾黨有看到花蓮縣政府成立了花蓮縣政府災區復原重建中心由習政會縣長指示縣府10個單位派員進駐到災區提供整合便民的這個服務"},{"start":2541.245,"end":2566.375,"text":"協助受災鄉親可以及時去解決各項生活跟重建的這個需求高達39項的服務我們認為這種一戰式的服務是非常重要的我們也希望今天的協商要做到中央提出來的特別條例是真的把錢用在刀口上面今天台灣民眾黨會提出修正動議目前"},{"start":2569.005,"end":2594.861,"text":"國民黨的版本是另外提出一個特別預算上限是200億現在行政院是增加了250億國民黨金額是比較低的那行政院用追加的方式是比較快的那民眾黨會建議要尊重選區委員的說法重點是要迅速要辨明而且要公開透明充分尊重在地"},{"start":2596.226,"end":2622.447,"text":"那民眾黨今天提的修正動議有三個重點第一個我們在第四條會要求把家園的清理支持跟復原慰問金明確的入法第二個我們要要求增加財政紀律每一分人民納稅錢要用在刀口上所以對於第五條增加250億救災重建經費為了維護財政紀律我們"},{"start":2626.171,"end":2648.616,"text":"認為不要採取行政院用的所謂多年分期的編列方式應該改為按每一年來編列而且要送到立法院來審查另外第十條非常的重要我們不同意行政院藉由這一次的修正推翻了現行丹納斯颱風跟728"},{"start":2651.001,"end":2674.501,"text":"好以災禍重建我們本來已經通過的實施的這個日期我們會非常堅持不要拖延重建的時間所以丹納斯颱風的這個災期復原重建所有的這個實施跟復原這個重建時間除了比較複雜的有線廣播電視系統水利設施這些項目"},{"start":2675.495,"end":2690.18,"text":"要維持本來我們三黨都同意的本來已經通過的116年的12月31號其餘全部都必須在明年115年的12月31號以前要完成不要再拖延"},{"start":2691.744,"end":2720.765,"text":"這民眾黨黨長非常的堅持至於比較複雜的花蓮馬太安縣政府這邊我們會同意因為他包括整個縣政府相關調查監測跟崩塌的這個整個要復原跟穩定啊需要時間比較長我們同意把那部分的時間最後的實施的這個期限延長到119年的12月31號 謝謝好 謝謝張啟凱副總召的發言接下來我們請鄭天才文發言 鍾嘉斌文請準備"},{"start":2722.908,"end":2739.495,"text":"鄭天才委員是提案委員 鍾太平委員是提修正案的委員特別跟大家報告一下 請 鄭委員請好 院長 各黨團及中央各部會非常謝謝今天能夠召開這個協商也非常謝謝我們中央各部會這段時間"},{"start":2740.795,"end":2754.853,"text":"到這個花蓮的災期非常多的相關的這些資源跟協助以及救助那今天特別條例會涉及到我們整個風災水災之後的一個"},{"start":2756.194,"end":2784.417,"text":"情形所以這個部分我之所以會提這個認定特別條例而不是去修正丹拉斯風災的特別條例最主要的就是除了剛才副總召所提的之外很重要的就是說我們在之前的這個卓院長去視察之後也特別提到要解決這個馬太安吸菸攝服"},{"start":2785.441,"end":2804.709,"text":"的霸體所以這個部分一定要列入這個條文所以應該要訂特別條例另外就是這個堤防的這個加固加高輸菌各方面都是原來的當然是颱風條例裡面所沒有的那另外就是說這個"},{"start":2806.07,"end":2822.451,"text":"不是只有淹水還有淹了很多的土石所以這個部分是跟一般的水災也不同所以在這邊特別才會提出這個提案然後我也有另外經過這段時間"},{"start":2825.595,"end":2832.723,"text":"災民所提供的意見之後我也提了再修正的動議在這邊等一下也請大家能夠支持 以上謝謝"},{"start":2838.373,"end":2855.663,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想針對丹納斯跟華加沙不管他的特別條例他的名稱為何所施定的範圍為何時事的日期為何事實上特別條例的本質就是立法權 立法機關為了因應特殊的狀況"},{"start":2856.704,"end":2885.247,"text":"同意賦予行政機關額外的預算額度在特別融通的權利去進行必要的災後重建工作所以基本上我們對於不管是丹納斯還是華家莎他的特別條例的這種屬性我們都必須先肯認就是由立法機關給予行政機關額外的授權包括預算跟執行的權利的差別因此在本席所提出的丹納斯特別條例當中我特別針對了"},{"start":2886.548,"end":2913.47,"text":"第四條第四條的第二項對不起是第三項因為第一項一共有十款那第二項第三項那第三項的目的是針對第一項第一款那第一項第一款講的就是農業設施那農業設施在丹納斯的當中因為復原重建的項目當中如果說僱主可以聘僱符合因應受景氣影響勞僱雙方協商減少的工時"},{"start":2916.392,"end":2932.671,"text":"這個是什麼意思呢就是因為受到美國關稅談判台灣蘇美市場波及的產業他可能有減班休息的狀況在這種情況之下所使用的勞動力尤其是移工那麼他可能呢可以將這樣的勞動力呢轉移來作為重建"},{"start":2936.174,"end":2960.487,"text":"復原重建之所需那這當然因為相關移工的使用必須符合就業服務法的相關規定因此我們在這個特別條例特別允許在執行第四條第一項第一款就是農業設施的部分它的勞動力得不受就業服務法第53條第四項的限制由行政機關可以對它的運用原則另外制定規定"},{"start":2961.488,"end":2986.243,"text":"那簡單來講,我們從7月開始,台灣的天災平仁,包括到現在的畫家沙所造成的花蓮光復香艷澀湖的災情,其實我們看到除了產值超人之外,它在災後復原重建的過程當中,不能夠只靠志工在那個時間的熱情,它也需要持續不斷的有勞動力的投入。然而大家都知道目前台灣的勞動力短缺,"},{"start":2987.263,"end":2995.089,"text":"但是在此同時這種出動勞動力短缺的情況之下卻也有產業它所用的移工是屬於在停班 減班休息的狀態那是我能將這樣的勞動力用來協助包括丹納斯 包括華家沙它的災區所需要的復健工作我們這裡特別提出附帶補充一點"},{"start":3009.5,"end":3013.964,"text":"那麼這樣的文字的內容經過勞動部的審視他們覺得可以再做一些些許的調整那在這裡如果待會勞動部有報告那本席這個修正內容是同意由勞動部這邊作為更完備的一個整理那授予勞動部他可以在"},{"start":3027.817,"end":3038.605,"text":"在符合實況的需求上不受既有法規的限制在一定期程內可以利用這樣的全面的權益措施來進速完成災區的災後復建 謝謝"},{"start":3042.791,"end":3061.367,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員發言 麻煩請我們公共工程委員會陳政委員請表達意見好嗎 謝謝好 院長各位委員大家好行政院提出來的丹納斯風災的特別條例的部分條件修正草案主要是根據這個我們當初在協商丹納斯颱風"},{"start":3063.668,"end":3084.016,"text":"特別條例的時候有通過一個附帶決議這個附帶決議就是說針對花蓮 馬太安溪 堰塞湖它的監測或者是疏洪 減災 防災 安置 工程要求行政院必須編列一算來進行這樣的工作"},{"start":3084.896,"end":3110.314,"text":"所以後來行政院編列特別預算的時候就根據大院的附帶決議編了一億兩千萬要來進行映射壺的相關工作當時還沒有發生相關的災害所以我們認為原丹納斯風災的特別條例它本身就有法院可以來進行這一次因為馬太安溪映射壺的相關的災害的相關工作"},{"start":3110.794,"end":3130.854,"text":"是可以進行的所以我們提的理由是這樣所以部分條文是有增加一些現在必須進行的比方說中繼屋啦或者是蘇郡啦或者是清瑜啦等等這些條文有增加另外呢這個上限呢希望能夠調整到850億就是說多250億"},{"start":3135.718,"end":3151.261,"text":"那麼來用在這一次菸攝乎的相關災害的相關的工作那為什麼是250億呢是因為行政院各部門已經有要求各個機關啦已經提出他們的需求而且目前已經在進行中了"},{"start":3151.681,"end":3171.621,"text":"比方說那個便橋啦 或者蘇郡啦或者是相關的已經在進行中了提出來整個估計大概是需要250億但是如果是大院覺得需要再往上提升到300億那麼行政院也會尊重 而且表示感謝這個是金額的部分"},{"start":3173.202,"end":3196.791,"text":"實施日期為什麼會調到119年因為除了這些疏進變道橋樑工程之外有一項是關於雨水污水下水道的整理那麼這一次光護箱有一個災害是很嚴重的就是基本上房子當泥沙衝進去的時候通過馬桶幾乎每一戶的這個化糞池都已經都"},{"start":3197.971,"end":3222.059,"text":"淹埋了 然後一些水溝 屋前溝 排水系統都已經堵塞了但是那個地方沒有污水下水道所以家裡的污水是排不出來的所以費了很大的力氣在整理所以我們認為說這次必須針對這一次的這種情形特別有編了設置聚落型的污水處理系統"},{"start":3222.979,"end":3247.904,"text":"就是聚酪型的水資源處理中心那這些工作從土地取得規劃設計到完成包括相關幹管等等至少需要5年所以如果今年開始實施我們認為希望讓我們有機會來至少完成到發包發生全責所以需要做到119年主要是這個污水 漁水"},{"start":3250.014,"end":3262.54,"text":"希望利用這個機會把關乎鄉的這個污水系統聚酪型的污水處理系統把它建立起來所以才有把時間特別能夠請求答應支持可以做到119年年底以上做說明 謝謝"},{"start":3264.915,"end":3287.493,"text":"哇 社長謝謝喔 您讓我們 您包括讓我們更能理解問題有的複雜性跟嚴重性那各位黨團看 我想我們現在制定案跟修正案 黨團之間喔 還是有非常大的意見落差所以我建議一下 還要跟行政部跟我們溝通一下我們休息十分鐘 掌握黃金十分鐘十分鐘之後我們來決定 好不好我們私底下來溝通一下 我們先來休息"},{"start":3604.375,"end":3625.707,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐 各位列席官員請坐現在大家已經達到一個初步的一個共識了好 大家請坐 接下來我們再一次麻煩我們政務委員陳政務委員能不能表達一下大家所有各黨團跟行政部門溝通的意見好嗎 請"},{"start":3628.203,"end":3639.19,"text":"謝謝院長 各位黨團總召因為兩個案的差別是說行政院修正查案只侷限在這次花蓮受災的三個鄉鎮光復鄉 鳳林鎮跟萬榮鄉"},{"start":3643.993,"end":3672.092,"text":"那如果原來相關提案有加上化家沙的話語域比較不明確會因為化家沙受災的各縣市會有所以我們希望能夠集中在花蓮這一次因為馬太安溪映射湖的受災這三個鄉鎮那如果說名稱不要化家沙那就只用在這個馬太安溪映射湖相關的這個受災區那這樣就好了那第二點就是說"},{"start":3674.013,"end":3700.307,"text":"時間我們有幾項工程明年底沒辦法完成第一個就是我剛剛提到的這個聚酪型的污水處理中心那大概要5年才能完成另外水利署在做的現在這個馬太安溪的南岸就是這是淹沒的地方要做一個超級堤防那個超級堤防是現在是10米寬將來會做成50米寬的堤防另外再往外拓200米200米的這個蘇洪道"},{"start":3703.922,"end":3725.892,"text":"就是差不多2到3公里長然後往外推250米那這部分牽涉到土地取得還有施工恐怕明年底沒辦法完成所以相關工程是不是能夠允許到119年這樣也許會比較好做以上來做報告好 謝謝陳市長寶貴發言我們請張祺凱 副總經理抱歉 請他看一下第10條"},{"start":3730.253,"end":3748.065,"text":"我們上次坐在這邊後來宴會過的這個嘉義嘉義跟台南那一塊那個丹納斯我們要完成的這個時間那時候是從優從寬從速有一個從速所以整個整個台南跟嘉義地區那時候要完成的整個重建跟修復的這個時間"},{"start":3749.645,"end":3767.021,"text":"是民國115年12月31號只有比較複雜的電力系統跟電信系統還有有線廣播電視系統跟水利設施我們延長了一年就是116年12月結果你現在這次用修正案你把它推翻就拖度啦"},{"start":3767.842,"end":3789.372,"text":"我們同意花蓮、華家莎這一塊華家莎很清楚,要119年10月30日,這個沒有,我現在商黨沒有意見台灣民眾黨也同意我是說你不能夠去推翻台南跟嘉義那個丹娜士那一塊啦好不好,你現在把它改成什麼陳政委,你們現在把它改成什麼,117年的10月21號沒有31號,這樣不行,好不好我們同意花蓮的119,可是"},{"start":3795.376,"end":3803.002,"text":"之前的丹納斯這一塊 時間要維持原來的 好不好好 謝謝 我們接下來請提案委員 鄭天才委員發言陳培鈺委員請準備我們現在國民黨團副總召請發言"},{"start":3814.944,"end":3838.51,"text":"謝謝民進黨團 民眾黨團大家剛剛跟陳政委溝通以後我們取得一個共識因為畢竟這個性質還是差別差異蠻大的跟丹納斯颱風也方便讓行政院在整個重建的工作把它區分出來畢竟這是不同的區域 不同的工作結束的年限也都各有不同"},{"start":3839.67,"end":3865.177,"text":"所以剛剛這個張啟凱副總召所提到的確實在台南嘉義是115年要完成12月31日要完成那個是丹納斯颱風的重建條例那現在就是對於這個花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖潰壩災後重建條例的部分這個陳正偉是希望把前面那個華家沙風災計那個東西拿掉"},{"start":3866.697,"end":3886.686,"text":"到風災季那個部分拿掉我們是競表同意我們競表同意然後成為一個制定案那制定案裡面我們要謝謝陳政委有特別提到這個整體的整體的這個重建原則上是116年底"},{"start":3889.495,"end":3908.613,"text":"116年底重建的部分原則上是116年底那個超級堤防跟污水排水污水排水到119年底有比較完整的時間因為現在整個光復鄉的污水排水的部分現在是全部"},{"start":3909.841,"end":3932.959,"text":"堵塞完全沒有辦法在現行的管路上再行打通所以要完全要全部重做所以我們也給行政院有一個比較比較一個能夠完整施工的時間所以這個部分我們也同意啊到119年底把整個污水排水把它完成好不好"},{"start":3934.449,"end":3947.547,"text":"那名稱的部分就是那個畫家殺風災記那個拿掉好 謝謝那個我建議那個提案委員你還是說一下你的看法因為你是提案委員然後陳培育委員請準備好不好你簡單二頁請表達 政見待會兒見"},{"start":3950.027,"end":3967.04,"text":"我就是謝謝啦謝謝這個剛才的協商齁能夠認定這個特別條例所以這個名稱的部分我就同意把這個這個前面幾個字拿掉就單純花蓮馬太安西煙社福那些後面"},{"start":3968.081,"end":3994.386,"text":"好 謝謝陳培委員請表達一下好 謝謝院長我快速的說因為剛剛國民黨有發下修正動議第六條的部分我看到已經把劃定特定區域拿掉了非常謝謝鄭委員跟國民黨團的部分聽到受災民眾原住民青年的聲音但是有另外一個聲音等一下我們是不是可以用主決議的部分放進去就是希望在重建的過程當中如何把當地災民的聲音部落的聲音放進去可以持續參與討論因為現在的寫法裡面是沒有的"},{"start":3996.846,"end":4011.952,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以看一下行政院這邊的回應我們也許可以用主決議的放入當地災民的聲音在重建過程當中因為部落的非常多特性跟文化其實跟我們非常的不同那如何尊重當地的文化跟部落聲音我相信政天才委員也會支持 謝謝好 謝謝陳培育委員的寶貴發言陳次長請再次發言請謝謝 我補充兩點"},{"start":4019.552,"end":4035.77,"text":"這一次被土砂淹沒的農地大概有600多公頃600多公頃分成兩個一般受災的還有一個是嚴重受災的兩個一般受災的是40公分以下那一部分"},{"start":4036.491,"end":4053.478,"text":"有可能會要進行重劃如果地方接受的話那這個重劃會需要取得這個人民的同意還有一些程序恐怕也不是明年底可以完成的那另外就是那個重災那一部分一定要跟當地的溝通到底要進行"},{"start":4054.778,"end":4083.516,"text":"搬遷或要進行怎麼處理所以有關農田的部分剛才農業部也反應恐怕明年底也沒有辦法馬上把它執行完畢所以這部分懇請能夠也允許時間長一點就農地的改善的部分那最後一點就是大家可以接受如果名稱呢化家沙風災計這一部分沒有的話那麼是花蓮馬太安溪"},{"start":4084.693,"end":4106.455,"text":"災後重建特別條例草案那是不是愧罷兩制是不是可以同意不要列在法案名稱就是花蓮馬太安溪驗社福災後重建特別條例草案是不是可以同意這一點"},{"start":4110.066,"end":4125.312,"text":"OK 大家應該沒有意見阿謙 從那邊 從中央那邊請那麼我想今天我們其實協商有兩個標的一個是簡稱畫家莎現在要改名叫做馬太安那另外一個叫做丹娜絲那容我用"},{"start":4126.778,"end":4142.397,"text":"用一個小小的圖來表達其實目前我們行政院版的丹納斯它是一個大園它涵蓋的範圍比較廣它的時間 它的區域都比較廣相關的內容也比較多那現在馬太安的部分是比較小的園"},{"start":4143.138,"end":4164.205,"text":"那中間有重疊的部分所以我是覺得剛剛我們現在處理這個馬太安的這個部分呢聽起來行政院是認同我們目前所提案委員的版本包括啟程也是如此但是因為剛剛呢在我們民眾黨團的部分針對這個丹納斯的部分也有一些修正動議所以我在程序上是要請教主席是不是說我們這個馬太安的部分處理完"},{"start":4169.226,"end":4195.358,"text":"那我們再來處理丹納斯的部分那這當中因為丹納斯跟馬太安有些重疊的部分我們在兩個案子當中會同時的去把它拉齊一致那其實剛剛副總召所提到的時程的部分工程會已經表達了那這個期程呢也待會會在丹納斯的時候同樣的那個期程那是不是我們請主席可以用這樣的方式呢來分別處理先處理馬太安再處理丹納斯"},{"start":4197.92,"end":4206.092,"text":"馬太安的部分 我們當中所決定的修正在丹納斯有重疊的時候 也依照這樣的修正內容以上程序上的請示"},{"start":4210.437,"end":4227.142,"text":"抱歉 如果剛剛大家協商的結果是要這個另訂特別條例那就沒有重疊的問題了因為這次出現一個很嚴重就是行政院去偷渡推翻了丹納斯之前的重建時間我再強調一下丹納斯重建的條件"},{"start":4228.362,"end":4246.984,"text":"整體是這個整體我們明訂了重塑是要在明年底12月底前要完成只有比較複雜的電力跟電信廣播這一塊跟水利這一塊延了一年116可是這次你們在修正案的時候把這個推翻了那如果已經訂定條例了就維持原來的這樣就解決這是一個"},{"start":4247.685,"end":4263.912,"text":"那你說要放在一起 那當然就是要維持原來那第二個 至於條文我要這麼堅持的原因是什麼剛剛陳政委有講嘛 你是要爭取爭取119年 原因是會有這個50米的這個超級堤防嘛 對不對還有什麼汙水跟排水 阿嘉義跟台南就沒這個問題啊"},{"start":4265.533,"end":4282.537,"text":"對嘛 有龍點那你就你現在沒有嘉義跟台南沒有那個超級超級那個50米的這個事情嘛也沒有污水那你怎麼可以把這個重建時間往後延這個不對這個我們要非常堅持那至於名稱部分如果你們不要潰壩你們要求的是什麼議題是不是蛤不是啊你們你們是為了什麼不是你們堅持不是潰壩要議題那就寫議題及潰壩嘛議題也潰壩這樣好不好就解決問題沒有沒有沒有好"},{"start":4295.097,"end":4314.21,"text":"好 謝謝 那我現在做三項宣告請各位黨團幹部各位列席官員大家請聽一下一 按照我們大家初步共識有關菸塞湖災禍的處理我們就採制定案來進行處理二 原先丹納斯修正案部分只針對原先所施行的日期長短我們來進行溝通"},{"start":4315.311,"end":4344.393,"text":"三 我們現在就先進制定案的協商咧那我們開始進行討論那第二案丹納斯施行的期間長短部分咧我們再請行政部門來跟委員來進行溝通所以現在咧只有第一案 制定案有關的請留下來如果沒有關係的話 官員也可以離席好不好 好好 嘉賓兄請因為我們本身在丹納斯我們有提修正案那我們丹納斯的部門會待會有協商"},{"start":4346.755,"end":4349.179,"text":"再協商自處理設定"},{"start":4355.947,"end":4360.011,"text":"因為民眾黨是針對丹納斯因為你們是針對丹納斯第10條現在沒有丹納斯的 我們現在就制定案好不好 我們單純"},{"start":4378.487,"end":4403.628,"text":"好不好 你要曉得立法院很容易節外生枝的朝野協商千萬不要再節外生枝了大家就制定案 好不好如果跟當事有關的官員到第二案到時候大家再來 現在大家可以離席我們留下來的 我們就討論花蓮 菸賽湖的制定案好不好 好 我要宣告一下因為有的官員他可能不是跟這個制定案有關的我先做一下宣告 好 我們現在我們進入"},{"start":4405.205,"end":4427.271,"text":"名稱方面我們現在請我們請宣讀名稱花蓮馬太西堰澀湖災後重建特別條例宣讀完畢好 各位黨團各位有沒有意見沒有意見好請這個我們國民黨團還是要表示一下"},{"start":4428.496,"end":4449.805,"text":"因為畢竟這確實是一個潰壩的事件我想全世界人都了解這是一個潰壩的事件我想這是不容爭議完全不容爭議的事實但是我想民進黨團跟陳政委 陳靜德政委都試著要要求把潰壩這兩個字"},{"start":4452.087,"end":4458.198,"text":"在這個制定案的條例的名稱上先把它移除國民黨團是認為啊"},{"start":4463.347,"end":4487.836,"text":"雖然有它的必要性但是我們還是留著這兩個字是有必要性但是我們尊重民進黨團跟陳政委所提出所提出來的是不是把這兩個字拿掉本席是基於我們朝野和諧盡快把條例能夠通過明天能夠刪讀所以我們敬表尊重"},{"start":4490.066,"end":4491.51,"text":"條例通過就是要處理潰壩嘛好 現在我們繼續請宣讀第一條"},{"start":4499.147,"end":4525.439,"text":"第一條國民黨團修正動議為有效迅速推動化加沙風災計畫連馬太岸西堰澀湖潰壩之災區復原重建工作特制定本條例本條例為規定者適用災害防救法及其他相關法律之規定但其他法律規定較本條例更有利於災後復原重建整治者適用最有利之法律重建地區為原住民族部落者並因應原住民族基本法相關規定辦理宣讀完畢"},{"start":4526.547,"end":4552.88,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部 針對現在我們又提出的修正動議還有原條文 大家請表達一下意見好 鍾佳斌委員請發言好 傅坤祺委員 傅坤祺總召請發言這是國民黨所提出的修正動議我想我在這裡也回應一下這個修正動議 紅字的部分就是這個從第一條後半部"},{"start":4554.458,"end":4576.763,"text":"這個重建地區位於原住民族部落者並應依原住民族基本法相關規定辦理我想剛剛已經回應了剛剛陳培宇委員所提到的相關的事情因為過去在訂定相關的這個法條的時候呢都會啊 都會啊"},{"start":4578.184,"end":4593.359,"text":"幾乎所有的版本都對這個部分通常會遺忘掉所以我們很明確在這裡回應特別關於部落地區一定要按照原住民族基本法相關規定來辦理"},{"start":4596.138,"end":4614.208,"text":"好謝謝副總召發言 鍾佳斌委員請發言我們現在看到的這個條文第一條在提供的文字的部分修正動議的說明欄他是寫增訂第二項後段那第二項後段就是剛剛副總召所說的重建地區為原住民族部落者"},{"start":4615.388,"end":4639.24,"text":"並依原住民族基本法相關規定辦理我想請教一下行政機關的意見就是說是要改列為第三項還是列在第二項後段因為在體力上是有一點點小小的差別啦原意上是相同但是在體力上因為這個第二項後段跟另立第三項是不是行政機關來做一些意見表達好 鄭天才文請發言 陳政委請準備"},{"start":4642.43,"end":4670.23,"text":"有關這個第一條 本席的條文也是這樣寫這個是過去的案例啦過去的案例就是放在這個第一條第一條的後段就是第二項 第二項的後段對對對 過去的案例是這樣好 謝謝 麻煩請陳政委表達一點 謝謝比較希望這個重建地區為原住民部落者這一部分另訂第三項"},{"start":4671.656,"end":4695.613,"text":"那第一項的名稱 我剛剛沒聽清楚 是不是跟法案名稱一樣是為有效迅速推動花蓮馬太安溪厭舍湖災區復原重建工作陳政委講這個完全對 我們就配合修正"},{"start":4697.83,"end":4720.408,"text":"那就把它重建開始列為第三項 好 好不好 大家沒有意見好 沒有意見 謝謝 我們繼續第一項稍微改一下第一項 第一項我們接下來參加有配合修正 講過了 好第二條 主條主條"},{"start":4725.941,"end":4750.559,"text":"第二條本條立所定災區為因花家沙颱風及花蓮馬灘吸煙色虎潰壩之受創地區其範圍有行政院公告之那這個陳政委啊這一條跟名稱喔看起來是一樣但事實上有一點點不太一樣這邊潰壩兩個字可以留下來嗎因為他這個就不是在法律條文只是形容一個地理一個災害您覺得咧"},{"start":4751.777,"end":4779.079,"text":"就是好人做到底就全部按照法律名稱來修正好 各黨的幹部那政委的意思說就把潰壩兩個字一樣照名稱的方式是啦 行政院要堅持的應該是有議題嘛就把議題又潰壩兩個都五個字都寫上去請陳培宇委員請發問主席我提醒一下如果按照剛剛名稱的改變為因華家沙颱風急前面那幾個字都要拿掉喔 謝謝"},{"start":4784.83,"end":4808.664,"text":"然後第一條的部分 主席不好意思第一條的部分 畫家殺風災那都要一併拿掉好 我們配合辦理 好不好好 陳志委沒有意見好 各位黨團幹部也沒有意見第一條 第二條都拿掉好的 都拿掉了好 我們現在進入第三條第三條 本條立之主管機關為行政院本條立之中央執行機關為中央各目的事業主管機關地方執行機關為花蓮縣政府"},{"start":4810.953,"end":4830.6,"text":"各位黨黨幹部有意見嗎 陳政委沒有沒有意見 好 謝謝我們就通過第四條 請先讀抱歉抱歉 主席請 陳政委請陳政委的意見是說用行政院當主管機關是比較特例啦那過去當然像莫拉克啦 921是有這樣的潛力啦但是那個災情"},{"start":4832.612,"end":4859.502,"text":"比較有所差距所以這部份的工作是如果可以的話是就維持一樣 公共工程委員會來做主管機關根據慣例的話 就中央根據達納斯台風 行政公共工程委員會各黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有沒有意見 好 那我們就一樣尊重陳政委 我們做修正中央主管機關為行政公共工程委員會好 第四條"},{"start":4863.497,"end":4877.973,"text":"第四條國民黨團修正動議本條例辦理之災區復原重建整治項目如下一馬灘西燕澀湖整治之後續處理由行政院督導行政院公務工程委員會農業部經濟部及花蓮縣政府擬定防範並執行"},{"start":4881.417,"end":4896.971,"text":"減災監測疏散及解決潰壩與修築提防加固加高之相關工程方案二農業復原一農田泥沙清雲農地復原專案修根農田廢園重建農地重劃及農業生產環境重建二農路林道農業運輸設施三溫室網室倉儲"},{"start":4901.269,"end":4916.608,"text":"畜牲型社化製廠堆肥廠資材市及農機具市四農作物補職與種苗等設施及設備五農業機具及設備六漁港漁船及養殖設施七農田土石挖掘清運搬土等"},{"start":4917.66,"end":4943.913,"text":"三 電力系統一 變電所及特高壓以上輸電線路二 配電網防災人性三 路燈及公共照明設施四 緊急備用電力系統移動式電源自發自用電源及儲能等微電網設施四 電信系統及有線廣播電視系統一 公眾電信網路二 行動通信基地台車三 衛星通信備援設施四 有線廣播電視系統五 自來水瓦斯及燃氣設施"},{"start":4945.074,"end":4971.177,"text":"一自來水及檢疫自來水設備二瓦斯及燃氣管線六家園及公共設施一災損及無可回復之房設住宅拆除修繕原地或異地重建之補助及租金補貼二公共建築學校幼兒園與政府機關構社會福利機構設施設備之拆除清雲及修復三文化資產與原住民族文化健康站聚會所之緊急搶修及修復四建制公共及家戶互動勢警報系統"},{"start":4972.998,"end":4997.651,"text":"五 宮廟教會教堂等建築復原七 水利設施一 河川排水上中下游系統性治理農田水利灌排系統及海岸防護設施二 雨污水下水道及道路排水三 山坡地整治及土石流防治四 淨流分擔出流管制及在地滯洪措施五 中央管及縣市管河川排水設施災後復原重建工程"},{"start":4999.867,"end":5015.39,"text":"及跨越河川排水瓶頸段橋樑改建八道路及交通一道路橋樑及隧道二道路邊坡防護及護岸工程三交通號誌標誌與護欄等附屬工程及設施九環境衛生復原一在後廢棄物清除處理環保"},{"start":5016.331,"end":5036.558,"text":"設施修復重建及環境復原二 災後疾病防治十 社會復原及產業促進一 災害救助心理輔導及社會支持二 災後振興地方產業企業生財器具輔助及低利貸款等復原措施三 文化觀光旅遊及休閒農業振興四 農業天然災害現金救助及低利貸款利息補貼等復原措施"},{"start":5037.998,"end":5062.993,"text":"五 災戶援助生產設備汰換產業設施生材器具運輸各類輔具及交通工具復原十一 其他經各中央執行機關認定有復原重建必要之項目辦理前項復原重建項目發給津貼補助救助衛助金及其他給予之資格條件基準金額應檢附文件得委任委託或委辦事項及其他相關事項之辦法由各中央執行機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":5065.171,"end":5094.304,"text":"那個行政院陳正偉請表達一下意見然後我們各黨團好鄭天才委員請先發言陳正偉您稍微等一下請第四條的部分這個有關國民黨團的修正動議我的建議做一些修正因為這個第四條的第一項的第二款的第一幕第一幕"},{"start":5095.801,"end":5123.835,"text":"農田是在談農田然後因為這個第七第七目第七目也是農田也是農田所以我的建議就是把它並在一起並在一起的我念一下農田土石挖掘清潤換土農地復原後面都一樣就是把它並在因為都是在談農田"},{"start":5125.789,"end":5151.071,"text":"合在一起這是一個部分可以參考我的那個提案修正動議條文還有後面抱歉抱歉後面就是說這個第十款第十款的社會復原及產業促進的瓜福山"},{"start":5152.479,"end":5172.495,"text":"瓜福三修正東藝是文化觀光旅遊及休閒農業振興我建議是改為文化觀光旅遊頓耗休閒農業及文化產業振興加個文化產業那另外就是那個瓜福五"},{"start":5173.581,"end":5198.165,"text":"瓜服務的部分是災戶援助那因為原來的條文是有這個商家就是做生意那個商家是不是維持那個商家商家與災戶就加商家與災戶就會不太一樣災戶就是會以為是一般的災戶"},{"start":5204.535,"end":5224.094,"text":"鹽田澳文有那個商鹽田澳文有那個商家鹽住全部用債務就可以了好好好 那我不堅持這個這個部分我就不堅持其他的就是建議能夠採納其他也不要堅持了"},{"start":5225.795,"end":5228.779,"text":"我們民眾黨我們要求把這個家園清理支持跟復原慰問金明確入法的第四條"},{"start":5237.523,"end":5263.985,"text":"第四條的第一項第六款就是家園及公共設施這本來國民黨的修正案是一共有五目嘛齁我們增加一目最後是第六目那邊增加家園清理支持跟及復原慰問金我們把它明確入法第六目就是國民黨本來到第五目的第六款第六款不是家園及公共設施本來國民黨不是提了五目對不對我們在第六目"},{"start":5265.371,"end":5286.952,"text":"增加一幕啦 增加第六幕家園清理支持及復原慰問金有 我們有修正 修正動議宮廟下面嘛 第五項是宮廟 教會 對 對 對院長英明 對 對 對就在宮廟跟教會的下面 再加一幕有啊 有提啊 我們有提馬上來"},{"start":5288.324,"end":5316.58,"text":"我們馬上送進來你送進來我們再回頭討論你送進來我們再回頭討論我們現在請聽陳正偉表達意見好嗎好 謝謝行政院針對屁股啊 進入重控一點好不好沒有意見行政院陳正偉現在對鄭天才委員所提的再修正都沒有意見完全接受 各位黨團剛才還有寶貴意見嗎好 請副總召那個第四條的最後一項"},{"start":5321.488,"end":5342.453,"text":"辦理前項復原重建項目發給津貼補助救助慰問金然後再加一個工資慰問金再加一個工資及其他給予之資格第二項"},{"start":5351.345,"end":5377.663,"text":"加一個工資那個丹尼斯台那個案子也有 陳昇偉這邊應該沒有問題啦原來我們是丹尼斯的時候寫在第三項第三項很完整 就是辦理前項等等等有津貼補助 衛助 救助金等等都有如果按照這個拿過來也加工資兩個 沒問題啦可以接受 好"},{"start":5379.339,"end":5386.226,"text":"謝謝 那我們第四條現在原則上齊凱雄如果要補什麼資料到時候再說我們第四條先通過了好嗎好 謝謝 我們繼續往下"},{"start":5392.782,"end":5418.938,"text":"第五條鄭天才委員修正動議因水災致住戶淹水與土石侵入之救助以實際受災獨立家屋為救助對象不受一門牌一戶社門牌社戶及及產權之限制並排除現行水災災害救助種類及標準之規範限制針對政府認定災區災害區域內之受災戶每戶最高發給新台幣五萬元以上救助金財團法人政災基金會就"},{"start":5419.418,"end":5448.212,"text":"花蓮馬太安西燕澀湖災害專案募款其救助對象準用前項規定好 謝謝第五條請問各位黨團幹部有寶貴意見嗎沒有意見請行政院陳政委請表達一下意見好嗎修正動議鄭天才委員的版本我先問一下好了好不好好 請鄭天才委員你的每戶發給新台幣五萬元以上"},{"start":5450.204,"end":5452.086,"text":"可是我們知道講這個是最對的 這個文字是有"},{"start":5478.215,"end":5503.254,"text":"為了高結果少了不是 這個是你們是介意以上兩個字不要上去以上拿掉就好了這條 我們認為原國民黨黨團版本就可以了因為我們現在執行的已經超過五萬了好 我們現在我們尊重陳政委的意見我們再念一下國民黨的原版本好嗎"},{"start":5504.807,"end":5530.76,"text":"國民黨團提案第五條因水災致住戶淹水之救助以實際受災戶數為救助對象不受一門排一戶之限制並排除現行水災災害救助種類及標準之規範擴大補償範圍針對政府認定災害區域內之受災戶每戶最高發給新台幣五萬元救助金這樣的文字就順多了您看天才文沒有問題您可以表達意見如果可以我們就接受國民黨團這個版本好嗎"},{"start":5532.759,"end":5553.33,"text":"為什麼會特別把這個土石侵入因為這次確實是一個跟水災不太一樣的土石侵入然後呢因為我們在整個救災的過程過程當中就發現尤其是我們原住民的鄉親很多都是有"},{"start":5554.37,"end":5568.376,"text":"自有獨立的房屋但是又沒有門牌有的沒有戶籍就是在旁邊就蓋一蓋新的一個房子是這樣的一個實際的情形才會特別因為在那個"},{"start":5569.657,"end":5597.791,"text":"水災災害救助總列級標準裡面他本來就有但書規定可以排除這些所以我特別把這個不說一門牌一副這個是原來的文字然後這個加了社門牌社務級級沒有產有的是沒有產權我們再提啦再修正動議啦現在已經快達成都是沒有問題因為不是不是不是我們要提再修正動議好那個那個黨團我們再再提就是這個修正動議"},{"start":5599.799,"end":5619.633,"text":"現在針對政府認定災害區域內之受災戶每戶最高發給新台幣5萬元救助金這個全部把它劃掉了現在把它全部劃掉了全部劃掉了這段不需要"},{"start":5620.273,"end":5643.545,"text":"政委員建議好不好我知道政委員在關心的那個事情我們對花蓮都很熟悉其實在您的版本裡面其實我覺得你在意的應該是那句話不受一門牌一戶跟門牌還有戶籍跟產權之限制所以如果國民黨團這邊要提再修正東一是不是我也建議把天才委員你剛剛在意的戶籍產權的限制放進去可以請國民黨團幫政委員也下列去"},{"start":5647.714,"end":5674.982,"text":"可以啦 我們現在後面要劃掉對 後面劃掉可以那前面的文字就照我的但是還是行政院對這邊有意見戶籍的部分 產權的部分我叫陳政委我現在先把副總召跟鄭天才委員兩個講我們試試看嘗試性把它調整一下然後再念出來之後您再看一看 您再發言好嗎副總召的意思就是說以鄭天才委員的版本但是把每戶最高發新台幣五萬元這個拿掉"},{"start":5676.109,"end":5689.974,"text":"其他不變 是這個意思 陳政委請發言未住均的部分已經發下去了而且是從寬認定所以不會限一個房子幾戶"},{"start":5692.373,"end":5716.749,"text":"產權也沒有限制租金租跟房東跟房客也同時都有我們只是認定他有沒有實際受災事實有沒有實際居住事實所以有可能出現一個門牌多戶也通通會發下去所以現在已經非常寬鬆那如果說文字上不需要再另訂了萬一如果另訂出來根本已經發下去了"},{"start":5717.629,"end":5726.529,"text":"又說抵制 那不是要追回來嗎不急 那陳志偉現在講得很清楚了那現在中加病委要求發言 曾天堂來請準備 請"},{"start":5728.525,"end":5748.342,"text":"我想因為其實剛剛行政院已經表達了其實莫拉克以來這個一門牌一戶的部分在屏東我們早就處理了那處理的結果也跟現在行政院在花蓮做的是一樣的因為這裡面有關於產權的問題到底是房東還是房客房客可不可以領實務上我們操作上房東房客都可以領"},{"start":5749.002,"end":5777.108,"text":"那至於說一門牌一戶這個是一個原則事實上提到有沒有社戶籍有沒有門牌有沒有產權實務上都已經是從寬認定所以條文上如果不用再額外的去細緻化其實照目前行政院的做法即可因為我們要強調特別條例是授予行政機關這個權利我們寫一門牌一戶這樣的一個原則之下行政院已經把我們要的都放進去了實際上沒有一定要在條文上複雜化"},{"start":5778.268,"end":5806.471,"text":"那另外呢那個淹水跟土石侵入的確是有些差異但是呢土石如果沒有水是不會入門的啦我們說土石流土石流他其實就是有水才會衝到我們房子水流了之後就把土石流下來這一點呢倒是行政院可以看看有沒有需要把那個淹水做一些更細緻的調整以上好謝謝曾天才委員您看看綜合陳政委跟鍾嘉斌委員的請表達意見這個郭政委"},{"start":5807.572,"end":5824.153,"text":"事實上就是因為中央支持的那個三方案有很多鄉親去申請的我現在加上去的都是沒有被通過的都是沒有被通過的所以我才加上去所以事實上是這樣"},{"start":5825.987,"end":5844.255,"text":"沒有 你先讓鄭天堂講完嘛因為我們要聽鄭天堂提案委員然後回頭你再講嘛好 你繼續 請繼續講大聲一點嘛你這個中氣不夠啊大聲一點 來就是我講完了啦就是剛才我加的這些文字齁我加的這些文字就是目前沒有被接受沒有通過的"},{"start":5845.482,"end":5867.162,"text":"對 目前沒有通過的 所以我要加上去目前都沒有領到我要特別謝謝這個 鍾嘉斌委員剛剛有在關心這個事但是實務上操作完全不是這麼回事實務上操作都不是這麼回事現在行政 現在內政部出來的牌號戶數跟公所跟縣府的通通都不一樣"},{"start":5868.775,"end":5871.44,"text":"所以為什麼1837 1837戶現在是我們碰到的問題內政部一直在講1837戶縣政府現在已經發到4200多戶"},{"start":5881.229,"end":5903.874,"text":"那鄉公所那邊基本上現在從官認定都是由村長認定他有居住事實有受損的事實不管有沒有門牌不管是不是屋主還是住戶有沒有涉及還是沒有涉及都是由村長來認定所以說現在這個狀況我們必須通過法律的行為把它明確因為他就是受災戶所以"},{"start":5907.444,"end":5933.979,"text":"內政部的1837跟18375跟實際上完全不是這樣所以剛剛天才委員在講到的就是說那政財基金會他還是按照內政部那個1837現在變成說他滾動式檢討一直累加累加每一件在個案認定那真的曠日廢時所以我們直接在條文上把它處理的話災民都可以得到協助主要是內容實務上操作有發生這樣的一個問題好不好"},{"start":5935.16,"end":5956.025,"text":"副總召的重點他是有落差了 莊家編委員請那因為副總召補充得很詳盡 其實又寫在附帶決議二當中其實因為我們法律條文 如果要具姓名義其實要照附帶決議這樣寫但是因為我們法律文字寫一門牌一戶在這種情況不受一門牌一戶的情況之下我們的附帶決議把剛剛幾位講的內容都已經放進去了"},{"start":5956.485,"end":5981.221,"text":"那這些內容呢我們如果把它簡化後變成法律文字反而這個附帶決議就變成有一些有重複啦那我是建議說法律文字簡明扼要但是呢附帶決議呢詳盡包括是不是這兩個一併請行政機關表示意見等一下 這法律文字也要調整啊你們買一副要拿掉啊那個 要拿掉的啊張祺凱副主席"},{"start":5982.575,"end":5990.505,"text":"台灣民眾黨強力支持天才委員的提案沒有錯 確實在食物的運作上就是出現了漏洞我也提醒嘉賓"},{"start":5992.512,"end":6015.519,"text":"事實上一門牌不限一戶在當大師的時候就是有入法有明定啊你為什麼現在把他挪到那個附帶決議去幹嘛國民黨提的啊 對啊我說你就明確的把他入法附帶決議是國民黨提的對啦 我就說要堅持支持那個天才的你不要又把他刪掉啦來請行政部門表示意見好了好 沒問題謝謝張靜凱委員我們麻煩再請那個陳偉恩"},{"start":6020.2,"end":6048.01,"text":"我說明一下剛剛所提到的那個保全戶1504還有那個非保全戶我說明一下我們其實保全戶跟非保全戶通通都有給我說明一下到目前已經核准了2700多件那這後續還有在陸陸續續有一些逮捕還有一些爭議有些爭議甚至是因為他到底算是有沒有跟房東完成租約房東也說不清楚"},{"start":6049.568,"end":6072.402,"text":"所以就像這種就是兩方還是要有一個具體的說法否則我們也不知道誰講的才是對的那有些是村長一開始不給後來有給但是村長後來有給了我們都一律都受理所以才會有還有1000件左右是在補件的所以不會說什麼只有給那個其他都不給沒有這個沒有這個事情好謝謝署長 鄭天才委員請這個署長"},{"start":6079.437,"end":6096.004,"text":"我的條文沒有涉及到成豬的部分,我這個主要是針對它有獨立的家屋,自由的獨立家屋,但是它沒有門牌,也沒有設戶籍。"},{"start":6096.84,"end":6122.646,"text":"因為就是這種情形所以我才會把它文字寫上去文字寫上去就會因為到昨天我還在協助但是花蓮東辦都沒有受理他們說我們的規定就是這樣我報告一下您講的那一個應該是接近是屬於在國有地上"},{"start":6124.434,"end":6136.263,"text":"有有因為國有地上自行搭建的有的在自由土地上自由土地上的只要村長有證明我們一概都收建我說明一下因為我們之前遇到的是村長一開始不發"},{"start":6137.298,"end":6166.067,"text":"但是我們都請他說再回去跟村長談一談村長只要願意發我們就收啦所以有些村長已經寫這個實際居住證明那個政委員跟署長之間到時候有什麼可以先溝通我們先把這個法案確立下來好不好現在都很寬鬆 他盡可能有證明我們都會給署長請坐 謝謝現在我們這五條條文就是把每戶最高發給新台北五萬元以上居住金這個拿掉 其他維持政經財委員修正案請問各黨的幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":6169.079,"end":6184.856,"text":"那是負債決議 我們再處理 沒問題負債決議 陳政委贊成啦 應該不是要入法啦 沒錯啦我們聽一下陳政委講話趙那個 天才聊天會那個 欸 政委的第二項齁財團法輪正在基金會就發連馬太安溪 燕射湖"},{"start":6185.977,"end":6214.317,"text":"災害專案募款 其救助對象用前項規定這等於是去規範 政災基金會啦政災基金會他是一個行政法人嘛而且他募了錢大概 他一定他裡面 政災基金會本身他就有他使用的規範 依賴用於受災戶我想這部分 第二項是不是不要不用寫 不用去規範政災基金會陳政委的意思是說 行政法人就不用放到我們請 陳政委 政委請我說明 因為"},{"start":6215.878,"end":6237.255,"text":"這個行政院所推出來的中央支持三方案就是包含震災基金會的上款所以那個35萬是包含這個所以這個文字既然是這樣子處理的話當然你說準用還是要用還是參照還是其他的用詞是可以討論的"},{"start":6245.892,"end":6269.296,"text":"那個我想因為是附帶決議並不是這個時間來討論我們現在討論條文那如果說如果說大家有共識的話我們在附帶決議來處理在附帶決議來處理現在就處理附帶決議就好了啊也可以啊 那現在好啊柯總統統一現在處理附帶決議那剛剛那個天才委員天才委員提出附帶決議我們就給他通過嘛那你們提的啊"},{"start":6278.223,"end":6283.366,"text":"因為這個附帶結議沒有包含這個政災基金會寫進去沒有包含政災基金會"},{"start":6291.738,"end":6314.925,"text":"那這一條我們第五條就尊重陳政委的表達的意見然後也尊重副總召 電真財委員還有鍾嘉斌委員共同的意見我們把每戶最高 第一項每戶最高發掘五萬元拿掉第二項財產財產政策集團也拿掉剩下再請提案委員用附帶決議的方式來呈現好嗎應該從針對開始從針對那就要拿掉了答案就到縣市了"},{"start":6316.453,"end":6335.155,"text":"到補償範圍啦對啦對就從針對這邊就全部拿掉了嘛對對對一直到範圍限制這邊就結束了嘛好不好各位黨的幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好謝謝我們進入第六條修正動議第六條國民黨團修正動議委員鄭天才等修正動議"},{"start":6337.42,"end":6363.105,"text":"災區重建因尊重該地區人民社區部落組織文化及生活方式各級政府為安置受災民眾或進行受災地區重建工作對於涉及用地級建築物質劃定取得變更評估管理維護或其他事項得簡化行政程序適用災害防救法第40條宣讀完畢請陳政委表達意見好嗎好陳政委行政部門能接受各位委員有沒有第6條"},{"start":6368.669,"end":6384.978,"text":"好的謝謝 各黨團根本沒有意見好我們謝謝我們的通過我們進入第7條第7條國民黨團修正動議本條力所需經費上限為新代幣300億元得失情勢變化擬定相關計畫分期編列特別預算其預算編"},{"start":6386.826,"end":6401.613,"text":"其預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條第62條及第63條規定之限制前項所需經費來源得以用以前年度稅計剩餘或舉借債務之因其每年舉借其每年度舉借"},{"start":6402.293,"end":6423.384,"text":"債務制額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算於本條例施行期間之舉債額度和計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額度和計數之百分之十五本條例施行期間中央政府所舉介之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理"},{"start":6423.884,"end":6439.034,"text":"地方執行機關辦理本條例及災害防救法規定事項所需經費中央政府得核實給予補助中央執行機關並得同意受補助之地方政府以待收待付方式執行為因應各項災區救災及復原重建工作之緊急需要"},{"start":6441.924,"end":6465.25,"text":"中央執行機關得報經行政院同意後於第一項特別預算案未完成法定程序前先行支付其一部分中央政府補助地方執行機關資金費地方執行機關應依補助之目的及項目之用不得已作他用好 提案委員 傅坤祺委員要不要表達意見在修正那陳政委請表達意見請副總統請我要特別強調因為"},{"start":6468.543,"end":6492.066,"text":"對於這次的重建的部分各種災情不斷在做評估一直不斷的在滾動式的在討論所以當時包括卓榮泰院長也提出在丹納斯條例上面加100億原本是說加100億後來也跟陳政委還有相關的部會都討論過以後最後他們加到250億"},{"start":6493.487,"end":6514.324,"text":"那國民黨團原本是提200億我們也有跟陳正偉溝通還有相關部會了解以後要讓整個行政院在整個災後的復建重建的過程裡面不要有資金的這個疑慮能夠有很完整的一個重建所以國民黨團把原本提的200億把它提高為300億"},{"start":6516.189,"end":6539.271,"text":"好謝謝副總統請陳政委請表達意見謝謝沒有意見好行政部門能夠接受各黨幹部沒有意見我們第7條通過好嗎好謝謝照修正通過我們進入第8條第8條國民黨團提案本條例所定災區不再依災害防救法第51條規定公告之災區範圍者其復原重建準用改法有關災區之規定"},{"start":6542.33,"end":6564.927,"text":"第八條沒有意見 我們就通過了 沒有修正動議請提出來不是 那個不在是不是未在那個法律用詞是不是寫未在依災害防救法規定的範圍內因為不在是比較口語化啦 法律上是說未在這個範圍內的那麼其復原的什麼 用什麼規定 是不是用未 而不是用不"},{"start":6565.748,"end":6577.294,"text":"中加兵委員所提的更精確一點就改為未在各位黨人剛剛有意見嗎沒有意見好我們就照中加兵委員所提的未在這個字修正一下我們就通過好進入第九條"},{"start":6578.772,"end":6604.912,"text":"第九條 國民黨團提案依本條例規定自個執行機關領取之津貼補助救助未住經及其他其餘免納所得稅依本條例規定自個執行機關領取之津貼補助救助未住經及其他其餘不得作為抵銷扣押供擔保或強制執行之標的好 請陳政委表達一下意見好嗎 謝謝沒有意見好 行政部門能夠接受各黨黨幹部有意見嗎沒有意見 我們第九條通過第十條"},{"start":6606.38,"end":6631.519,"text":"第10條依本條例編列預算之中央各部會應於本條例施行後兩個月內提出災後復原重建計劃本條例編列預算之中央各部會應將預算之工作計劃實施內容概述及預計實施進度按計送立法院備查好請陳政委表達一下第10條的意見好沒有意見好沒有意見各黨有意見嗎沒有意見好第10條通過我們現在進入第11條"},{"start":6632.645,"end":6657.237,"text":"第十一條主管機關應設置資訊網站專區提供便於搜尋得以理解之完整資訊主動按月定期公開本條例下列執行進度及內容一第二條鎖定災區之公告二第四第四條第二項由各中央執行機關訂定之辦法三前條鎖定之內容好第十一條麻煩請陳哲偉表達意見沒有意見好可以接受各黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好我們通過第十二條"},{"start":6660.663,"end":6679.258,"text":"第十二條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自公佈日施行至中華民國一百十七年三月三十一日至本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經理法院同意延長之第十二條各位我們請陳總委表達下意見"},{"start":6680.685,"end":6709.534,"text":"有幾項工程沒有辦法要改119對 改119好 陳政委的意思是說剛才有兩個重大的工程那要不要把實驗到119年可能要把它明確化可能要明確化你可能哪個部分是116年要完成哪個部分是119完成我們稍微請文子調整一下 寫清楚比照丹納斯的比照丹納斯啦丹納斯的第十條嘛對丹納斯的第十條院長"},{"start":6711.661,"end":6738.782,"text":"那個誰來寫那個 院長院長這條文是不是請行政部門把您清楚 我們再看一下好不好 現在就你嘛那我們就休息十分鐘請行政院 那個陳政委這邊花點時間來調整一下好嗎好 再報過來 休息"},{"start":6743.439,"end":6746.581,"text":"第四條第一項第一款 執行至119年12月30日"},{"start":6767.82,"end":6768.521,"text":"好 往下 往下"},{"start":6780.809,"end":6805.399,"text":"他說一樣,還會說我成員失敗,他不知我以後有什麼事,那是剩下經濟部的事,那現在就...好,那要確認一下,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,我來照顧你,"},{"start":6807.22,"end":6831.195,"text":"阿蘇伊公園 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市 阿蘇伊市"},{"start":6833.776,"end":6838.939,"text":"我們這就吃了,又要三個禮拜了我的金融系統,現在才開始開店了花了十個月,瘦了十二個月現在就走五個月了"},{"start":6856.907,"end":6858.908,"text":"那你應該 台灣記者會過來發一萬塊你們應該早就有吃完飯"},{"start":6876.572,"end":6877.052,"text":"中斷的那邊"},{"start":6892.841,"end":6893.922,"text":"留著 留著 留著"},{"start":6910.922,"end":6922.37,"text":"我們那個不可能重複領取,所以不可能,那個都是電腦作業,你可以去試試看你可以先去登記,然後接下來再去ATM一些,看會不會被reject"},{"start":6933.459,"end":6951.075,"text":"我那個資料都是同步的有這樣發生過嗎?不會啦所以我來說當然不會因為我師父媽媽那些都會每天變動所以只要那邊去特地出錢就不可能發兩萬不是我跟你講你這個我為什麼會跟你講這個事我叫衛福部發那個衛福金衛福部"},{"start":7696.007,"end":7698.388,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝謝謝好 各位黨團幹部麻煩請坐各位列席官員 謝謝"},{"start":7700.182,"end":7720.402,"text":"我們現在繼續開會條文的部分我們要進行最後的確認我們先處理第12條再接續我們來處理第5條跟第4條我們現在先進行處理第12條我們剛才溝通完畢以後請各位黨黨幹部仔細聆聽行政官員也請聽一下我們現在開始宣讀"},{"start":7721.311,"end":7741.263,"text":"第十二條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自公佈日施行至中華民國一百十七年三月三十一日止但第四條第一項第一款第二款第一目第七款第一目至第三目規定施行至一百十九年十二月三十一日止"},{"start":7742.974,"end":7766.267,"text":"本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之好跟證第一項本條例及其特別預算施行期間自公佈日之施行至中華民國一百十六年三月三十一日之"},{"start":7770.327,"end":7787.302,"text":"有那個陳政委請表達意見這部分沒有問題好行政部門可以完全可以接受我們就剛才所聽的是經過所有的黨團大家各各位黨團幹部協商之後的結果相信大家都沒有意見好沒有意見我們12條通過我們現在回過頭來我們現在討論第5條再修正東西請宣讀"},{"start":7794.298,"end":7805.708,"text":"第五條因水災致住戶淹水之救助以實際受災戶數為救助對象不受一門牌一戶之限制並排除現行水災災害救助種類及標準之規範限制"},{"start":7809.216,"end":7824.8,"text":"就那五萬塊那個 好 那個 曾天才委你要表達意見嗎 可以接受嗎好的 陳政委請表達意見好 沒有問題 我們第五條就通過了好 謝謝 我們接下來第四條修正案 請台灣民眾黨團有加一個第四條 第六款"},{"start":7840.716,"end":7860.337,"text":"第一項第六款增訂第六目家園清理支持及復原慰問註金那陳政委第五條就加那個第六項 您有沒有意見家園清理及復原慰問金"},{"start":7862.864,"end":7889.919,"text":"本來我們是寫在其他條的第三項啦他現在申訂我請一下主任一下好文字怎麼樣而且另外第一幕的第二行那邊前面加個清瑜頓號修正案裡面有寫 對這清瑜非常重要第一幕 第一幕的第二行"},{"start":7895.704,"end":7921.57,"text":"在這裡 這他的修正 他的修正東西齊凱委員 這已經有啦 住宅清淤在第一項 你是希望怎麼改張齊凱委員 他加清淤啦加住宅清淤 把他加到住宅兩個字後面 陳政委他那個是做了一個可以吧"},{"start":7923.929,"end":7935.037,"text":"剛才那個未註金的部分也沒有意見沒有意見齁 那這個加輕於兩個字也沒問題齁好 沒有問題 我們第四條我們就再修正東西通過好 我們繼續處理附帶決議"},{"start":7939.542,"end":7959.478,"text":"附帶決議一一原住民族基本法第23條及第32條規定政府應尊重原住民族在生活方式社會經濟組織與土地管理上的自主權除非面臨立即且明顯的危險否則不得強制遷移族人原此相關權責機關在推動中繼安置永居政策或執行"},{"start":7960.138,"end":7983.924,"text":"執法措施時應以尊重族人生活選擇與土地利用模式為基本原則更應依據土地權利保障要求落實諮商並取得當地族人同意或參與並依實際現況與族人需求做妥適調整與規劃以確保政策合法性與正當性好 請問各位黨團幹部對附帶決議沒有意見請陳總委表達意見好 請原民會表達意見沒有意見"},{"start":7989.864,"end":8017.895,"text":"好 謝謝 行那麼我們附帶決議第一案通過好 請宣讀第二案附帶決議二一 花蓮馬灘鞠燕色湖潰壩災區受災戶下列實際居住之受災戶未能領取家園支持中央三方案一 實際居住自有獨立房屋有所有權狀未設戶籍者二 實際居住自有獨立房屋無所有權狀未設戶籍或未設門牌者三 租屋有訂定租約或未訂定租約並實際居住未設戶籍者"},{"start":8019.255,"end":8038.964,"text":"二請行政院同請行政院及財團法人政災基金會同意一水災災害救助種類及標準第四條第一項第五款但書規定從寬遊村里長一前述實際居住之證明予以救助水災災害救助種類及標準第四條第一項第五款水災災害生活救助對象如下"},{"start":8039.564,"end":8051.42,"text":"五 住戶淹水救助實際居住之租屋因水災淹水達50公分以上以一門牌為一戶計算但建屋分別獨立或非屬獨立而為不同獨立生活戶者應依其事實認定之"},{"start":8053.444,"end":8069.276,"text":"那個 鄭天才委員您要不要再表達一點您關切的已經放進來了好 沒問題啦好 我們請陳政委表達欸 對不起 對不起陳政委稍待一下請鍾佳銘委員請表達那個我們是不是就按照條例的本意齁在 附帶決議的第一行齁潰壩那兩個字就不用留了 占一致性"},{"start":8070.438,"end":8092.089,"text":"好 我們就一致性把潰壩兩個字OK 好 取消掉我們請陳政委 請表達意見沒有意見 那個各位黨黨幹部我們就中嘉賓委員的把潰壩兩個字我們就把它取消掉好 鄭天才委員也加進去 剛才也唸過了那陳政委也表達意見 完全可以接受我們第二 附帶決議第二案通過我們第三案"},{"start":8094.099,"end":8112.339,"text":"附帶決議三花蓮馬太岸新顏色湖潰壩治災區房屋淹水及土石侵入有關受災區水電免費措施因家戶傷在清理中因延長至一百十四年十一月份所需經費由特別預算撥補台灣電力公司及台灣自來水公司"},{"start":8115.768,"end":8135.659,"text":"這個請表達意見 包主席 主委委員因為我們現在對於水電的這並不是只有免費而已包括還有包括重新裝錶這些都是減免措施所以我們建議說擴大對災民的一個救助所以我們建議在這個附帶決議裡面在第二行有關受災區水電"},{"start":8137.02,"end":8155,"text":"我們建議加減免措施 把原來的免費措施改成減免措施然後第二行的後段 減免期間延長至114年11月"},{"start":8162.133,"end":8185.839,"text":"市長謝謝你的寶貴意見 但這個這個不太一樣 不太一樣我們請提案委員表達一下意見好不好這個是有 可以接受嘛 政經事務委員可以接受好 那我們就叫經濟部所提 哎 總裁沒有請那個潰壩字這三個字齁 還有第四案也是一樣 潰壩字三個字謝謝潰壩中 每個潰壩都要拿掉謝謝嘉賓委員 拿掉潰壩兩個字 拿不掉潰壩的事實啊然後第二行 OK 潰壩"},{"start":8191.11,"end":8215.548,"text":"虧霸制 這三個字都要拿掉 我們現在就第二行這個有個重大的不一樣 剛正天才委員表達他完全可以接受 受災水電減免措施那後面延長至114年11月 這個不變減免期間 改為減免期間 好不好好的 第三 附帶決議第三案我們通過 謝謝大家 第四案"},{"start":8219.622,"end":8240.602,"text":"附帶決議四一花蓮縣馬太安溪燕瑟湖潰壩至花蓮縣光復鄉鳳林鎮萬榮鄉等農田遭受重創造成農作物農機具農機室資材是毀損及農田流失與埋沒二查農業部陸續推動相關救助重建與輔導措施但多項補助已"},{"start":8241.002,"end":8264.755,"text":"自有耕地成租耕地及農基鎮為要件使部分實際受災卻因尚未取得原住民保留地所有權無租約時使用公有土地或無農基鎮的農民無法獲得救助金正天財委員於114年10月15日質詢農業部陳部長同意專案辦理以工廠管理機關或原住民族委員會出具實際使用證明為依據並予以發給"},{"start":8266.396,"end":8293.357,"text":"補救助 請農業部儘速以專案方式修正相關規定放寬相關補救助限制莊大編委我提醒你一下因為你這文法就不對勒就不順了來 我念名這個花蓮縣馬太安溪燕瑟湖受災燕瑟湖災區包括就把花蓮縣拿掉 因為前面有花蓮縣了嘛包括光復鄉 鳳林鄉 萬榮鄉等農田遭受重創 這樣就順了"},{"start":8294.83,"end":8316.915,"text":"就順多了 剛才就怪怪的 文法不對好 那請陳政委表達意見 請 請 請報告主席 那因為我們的先進救助與相關的補助是有兩個辦法齁那所以這個正天海委員所提案的這些農機具的這個部分是屬於補助項目 那建議把末兩段的這個補救助的救治把它刪除 以上建議"},{"start":8318.888,"end":8338.706,"text":"就是倒數第二航補救助跨戶裡面的救把它刪掉好 鄭天泰委員請表達意見同意這個那個農業部的發言好 謝謝請沒有別的意見啦 只是讓大家再回憶一下我們在8月13號"},{"start":8340.555,"end":8341.015,"text":"黃絲不要拿走啦"},{"start":8357.912,"end":8373.841,"text":"好 那我們現在這個就兩個簡單的修正一個就是 照第一行就照鍾嘉賓所提的把潰怕字三個字拿掉還有花蓮縣 改為花蓮縣包括你加了包括嗎 花蓮縣拿掉我想這個再念一遍 這第一行實在太饒舌了 請"},{"start":8375.697,"end":8384.765,"text":"我説明一下是把潰壩字花蓮縣六個字換成災區包括對 換為四個字嘛煙塞湖災區包括花蓮縣光復鄉其實以文法來講 請羅志強 羅主席花蓮縣 馬太安溪 艷澀湖字 光復鄉 鳳林鎮 萬榮鄉"},{"start":8401.685,"end":8422.223,"text":"羅志強委員不確實文字高手不枉做未遂主席這個非常順主席未遂羅志強委員修正非常順花蓮縣馬太安西燕塞湖至花蓮縣光復鄉這個其實就很順好不好好最後一個倒數第二行的那個補救助的救在跨湖連我們把它刪掉"},{"start":8425.779,"end":8444.894,"text":"請倒數第二行還有倒數最後一行的兩個就都三組對 我講倒數第二行跟倒數第一行好 大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們附帶決議第四案就通過了好 我們現在做一個重要宣告不是四個嗎又來一個我看看"},{"start":8447.518,"end":8475.055,"text":"第五案附帶決議五為促進河川系統性治理效能清於花蓮花蓮縣嗎花蓮西馬太安西蘇郡及土方清運納入系統性治理經費為飆售土石收益應繳回重建基金"},{"start":8478.221,"end":8505.019,"text":"這個應該 副總召請所以這個剛剛經濟部一直來協調這個事情是不是可以把輸菌的部分納進重建條例本其實相當不以為然因為馬太安西是中央管河川竟然五年都沒有輸菌經濟部在做什麼"},{"start":8506.863,"end":8535.043,"text":"就是說什麼這本來就應該要長年輸菌的沒有輸菌這是安全問題然後現在自災了以後要用重建基金來輸菌這不就是經濟部長年該做的事情嗎所以所以姑娘啊要盡快啊把災後有一個安全的環境"},{"start":8536.512,"end":8555.652,"text":"所以本席才同意把輸菌也放進來但是所有這些都有價料標售之後的這些錢應該還到重建基金來讓重建基金這個部分的經費不會被損耗掉"},{"start":8557.234,"end":8579.694,"text":"這個有寫 繳回重建基金因為我叫他寫的好 陳培委員請發言主席我想要請那個部會可不可以說明一下到底蘇郡在中央跟地方的分工是什麼呢當然我們非常感謝副總召提到這個事情喔那我們也認同繳回重建基金但是相關的工作分工因為後續重建要進行我認為中央跟地方的分工要說清楚"},{"start":8586.448,"end":8612.606,"text":"有關於河川輸進的部分是依照治理的全管以一條河川而言若是縣市管的河川那必須要縣市政府來辦理輸進那若是中央管河川那自當由這個中央的這個單位比如說是在下游地區那就是由水利署來進行輸進但上游的地區有包括縣市政府還有包括水路保持署"},{"start":8613.846,"end":8642.422,"text":"還有包括林務署的部分要辦理疏進那今天我們希望說加速這個馬太安溪上有煙射湖產生的大量的土石為了他流入的花蓮溪跟馬太安溪這個地方發生危險然後所以我們要擴大清輸的這個動作所以我們必須來把這個工作納入系統性的治理所以建議這個提案諸位委員可以支持"},{"start":8642.782,"end":8659.459,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部的補充說明請好請副主任所以啊我想今天在這裡這個事就要講清楚剛剛經濟部已經講了在中央管河川是由中央政府負責來輸菌"},{"start":8662.625,"end":8683.365,"text":"縣市地方管河川由縣市政府來輸進所以本席再請教一下經濟部今天次長來嗎次長在哪裡你跟那個麥克風講一下馬太安溪是中央管河川還是地方管河川馬太安溪是中央管的河川好 謝謝好 謝謝 陳政委請"},{"start":8685.504,"end":8704.07,"text":"剛才提到花蓮溪跟馬太安溪那是不是因為河川命名那邊要加上一個嘉農溪然後光復溪如果有需要的話應該也納入了就是嘉農溪跟光復溪嘉惠的嘉農民的農嘉農溪跟光復溪"},{"start":8705.439,"end":8731.288,"text":"這天才委員這邊西你應該很熟吧那都你選去啊現在排水因為馬太安溪現在做超級堤防未來那裡不能排水所以只有走光復溪去排水加農溪只是輔助的那如果陳政委認為說這些溪都要納入的話本席竟表同意好 我們國民黨團總召表達意見完全可以接受那各位黨黨幹部還沒其他寶貴意見"},{"start":8732.591,"end":8758.229,"text":"沒有意見的話我們就把這個西花蓮西馬太安西再加加農西還有一個光復西其他大家都接受了好謝謝我先念一個重要的宣告我們時間114年10月30號下午3點協商主題延商華家沙風災及花蓮馬太安西菸塞湖潰壩災後重建特別條例等"},{"start":8758.809,"end":8761.992,"text":"寫上結論一 寫上通過名稱以及條文如附件一"},{"start":8785.168,"end":8802.43,"text":"二、通過附帶決議如附件二,院會並不再新收附帶決議。三、各黨團同意本案列入10月31日星期五院會討論事項,於施政諮詢前處理,完成三讀。"},{"start":8803.885,"end":8831.592,"text":"而且不再提出復議本案三讀後發言由各黨團推派一位代表發言當日院會討論事項處理幣進行施政質詢議程時行政官員在行列席四 各黨團委員提案及相關修正動議均與刊登公報記錄請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們就請簽署結束"},{"start":8834.619,"end":8852.905,"text":"我們剛剛已經講了 那行政官員再行各位黨團幹部 我們今天所制定案的協商順利完成我們簽字 我們今天的協商到此為止非常謝謝我們列席的黨團幹部也謝謝各位列席的官員 我們散會"}]}},{"id":"16993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16993","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685eb9b513302bbc703761f4f0346d20822c15c14682415554628bed1ebd00568205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-30T08:32:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T16:17:00+08:00","duration":27850,"影片長度":"07:44:10","委員發言時間":"08:32:50 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畜牧師檢驗濟證陳俊隆謝謝續產試驗所組長陳文賢收益研究所所長鄧明忠"},{"start":1718.05,"end":1746.179,"text":"財政部官務署副署長蘇淑珍還有關稅查緝組組長郭寬淵通關業務組副組長潘秀華交通部行政司副市長盧清泉公路局運輸組組長梁國國中華郵政股份有限公司郵政處處長柯清長經濟部商業發展署組長簡俊良"},{"start":1748.308,"end":1771.944,"text":"謝謝還有數位發展部數位產業署組長林清清謝謝海洋委員會海巡署副署長許靜芝謝謝謝謝巡弘署參議許蘭祥謝謝情報組專門委員陳怡玲好我們接下來請衛務部事務長來做報告"},{"start":1782.908,"end":1797.513,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位女士先生今天呢呃呃社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會會議邀請那麼深感榮幸呃以下呢今就"},{"start":1798.433,"end":1820.652,"text":"之就如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵持續強化主角疫情於國門同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫來進行專題報告來請敬請各位委員不定指教那第一個呢是有關於輸入的食品的管理是屬於跨部會的合作"},{"start":1821.392,"end":1849.075,"text":"涉及到本部的食品藥物管理署農業部跟財政部關務署等單位本部食品藥物管理署主管在食品衛生安全之邊境查驗程序經查驗符合規定才可核發輸入許可通知後再由海關系統來依程序通關放行如果查驗不符規定的就依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法"},{"start":1851.136,"end":1874.626,"text":"這個邊境就予以退運或者是銷毀那麼第二個有關於國外食品運送路徑的方式多元可能透過海運空運或者是國際包裹等形式輸入但是不論輸入方式如何都要符合食品安全衛生管理法的規範那麼經過這個申請輸入查驗符合規定才可輸入那麼至於有一些民眾"},{"start":1875.566,"end":1896.765,"text":"可能因自用所需那麼從國外輸入或吸入相關的食品自用那這些呢商品這些食品就必須按照食安法第30條第3項的規定那麼限制在一般食品是在6公斤價值1000美元以下才可免申請輸入查驗那麼至於呢"},{"start":1897.565,"end":1922.927,"text":"這個非洲豬瘟疫區的豬肉肉品則是全部在禁止輸入或者是吸入的這個範圍裡頭那本部的食藥署則持續在各個港部的辦事處都會有宣傳那麼加強這個業者跟民眾對於豬瘟非洲豬瘟防疫的認知而對於國內市場也做後市場的"},{"start":1923.547,"end":1951.553,"text":"茶盒那麼不論是在食品製造或者是餐飲 販售業 攤商等等的豬肉品的來源那麼也加強的集合那麼今年呢70月為止已經集查超過三萬五千多家那麼經常都不符合的這個規定那所有的輸入食品再次強調都必須依照食安法規定那麼基於防疫議題那麼我們也會持續的"},{"start":1952.133,"end":1962.759,"text":"跟各部會來對於輸入食品在邊境把關持續的強化那麼也請各位大衛各位委員那麼不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":1968.939,"end":1992.592,"text":"好 謝謝 那有關本市會議各項書面資料經列入紀錄跟公報 現在開始詢答 做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間六加二分鐘 列席委員時間一分鐘 十點半截止發言登記 委員如果有書面質詢 請議長會請提出 一起不受理暫定十點半 休息十分鐘 那本會不處理臨時提案 現在請登記第一委員盧秀一委員來做發言"},{"start":1998.168,"end":2026.094,"text":"主席有請我們關務署來請關務署部署長部署好那我想問說我們先看一下那個第一張號就是我們現在如臨大敵我們先看看他原本的樣貌他長這個樣子也就是所謂的非洲非洲豬瘟的在顯微鏡下看的樣子第二張"},{"start":2028.055,"end":2054.41,"text":"那我們現在看那個高階判讀人員中階判讀人員這些我們知道這些人力是這個樣子那我想問你說真正的S關機的偵測率的成功率跟判讀率是多少關屋署有沒有實際的數據有沒有成功率或是誤判率這些"},{"start":2055.803,"end":2071.805,"text":"報告委員 我是官務查緝的組長就是說那個就是說X光只要是有異常的我們官員都會拉下來當然就是說拉下來之後如果是大部分的都是因為我們要精準打擊所以拉下來的話大部分都會有查獲物品"},{"start":2072.385,"end":2101.656,"text":"希望說如果因為我們的中階就是看中階的人比較多嘛高階是比較少所以你真正要去把關的就是要嚴格把關這個人數沒有那麼多那你有沒有強調說要去以後要從AI的判讀啊或者是輔助啊來增加這些人力的一個耗損或者說他們的loading跟我有報告其實我們官員就是我們這個X光影像判讀的我們分了三個階段"},{"start":2102.463,"end":2113.997,"text":"三個階級嘛初中高那我們其實通過這個高階的這個測驗的同仁都已經有超過大概有七八成那麼我們在110年7月的時候我們已經有開始運用AI來輔助判讀"},{"start":2119.984,"end":2148.666,"text":"那當時是針對毒品的部分那我們在114到117我們有一個計劃會把這個肉品還有相關的這個菸品等等也會納入我們整個一個AI的影像判斷我希望速度可以快一點因為我們現在已經如臨大敵所以一定要把這些我們剛才講的數據正確率 誤判率這些要弄出來然後AI輔助讓我們的人力不要那麼辛苦好不好是OK 謝謝那有請我們的農業部是請杜署長"},{"start":2154.892,"end":2174.595,"text":"你知道現在我們國內的豬的產值是多少嗎目前是我們的所有防疫對象是5441場再加上它相關的一個周邊大概有2000億我剛剛大概算了一下我們一個國人大概平均一年吃40公斤的豬肉"},{"start":2175.035,"end":2201.364,"text":"那如果是一斤一百塊的話大概就是一千億嘛那其他的負邊的產值可能就超過兩千億那我想要問的就是說這次這個繁育期間很多人可能受到限制比如說他沒有辦法殺豬沒有辦法有豬肉的販賣那我想你在繁育的時候可能養豬會得到補償可是我想知道有些靠豬吃飯的我們尤其是原住民有些是烤豬肉的那個"},{"start":2202.564,"end":2224.331,"text":"達人或者是攤商 小吃業者這些有沒有在規劃裡面補助的規劃裡面報告委員我們現在大概是針對一級生產鏈有相關的都有研擬的補助措施那至於是在市場裡面的攤商的部分因為是直接受害所以這個部分也有列入到經濟部的一個補償的一個範疇裡面"},{"start":2225.951,"end":2252.347,"text":"那至于在餐厅小吃部等等这些有没有扩及到这些相关的关系人那这个部分我想这个经济部也正在研明中对我想说可不可以动用我们农业天然灾害的救助基金或者是农业发展基金来补偿这些因为因猪而要靠猪生活的这些所谓的层次的一些商人或者是族人得到一些适当的补偿"},{"start":2253.047,"end":2272.717,"text":"包委員一級生產鏈的所有的環節我們都我們也看到一個新聞就是非常就是很可怕的新聞就是說可能會影響到我們的山豬那如果說山豬被感染的話就可能就是全台灣都淪陷了所以這個有沒有一個監測的機制或者說有沒有一個防範的作為"},{"start":2273.577,"end":2301.938,"text":"一般我們在做非洲豬瘟口蹄疫的時候及豬瘟的時候我們一年年度就有一些監測針對山豬的監測計畫那現在昨天這個為了台中的這個像沙鹿啦後里等等有幾場山豬在活動的區域那也要求他們針對廚餘的收集區跟處理區一定要委網來阻止山豬這個他可能不定期不定時的一個侵入"},{"start":2302.418,"end":2316.883,"text":"我想附帶問的一個問題就是說現在廚餘如果你要煮到幾度的話比較不會有一些感染的風險是 這個部分真的經過所有的科學所蒐集的資料是90度"},{"start":2318.504,"end":2346.815,"text":"一小時 但是要攪拌喔我還有看到五十度 六十度 七十度其實要讓病毒不活化最好還是依照這個規定去執行所以可能這個部分要早一點讓國人知道因為我覺得到目前為止我很像在看新聞的時候或是看一些廣告的時候還是沒有看到這些相關的作文好 這個一定要加強 是 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們的防疫人才呢目前就是說 針對獸醫者或者是獸醫這個部分你們目前的那個進度在哪裡"},{"start":2348.299,"end":2367.572,"text":"報告其實在今年的六月份的時候總統也體諒到所有的部門的獸醫師他們工作的辛苦所以已經有跟他們比照這個不開業獎金就是醫師的不開業獎金這個部分已經有提列了後來看到那個新聞說一場吃五百塊的樣子"},{"start":2368.473,"end":2384.032,"text":"那個是特育獸醫師這針對每個場次他的規模的大小不同如果一般比較有一定的規模他一定會有駐場的獸醫師但是有些小型的可能他這個成本也很高所以他用合作契約"},{"start":2384.773,"end":2410.255,"text":"所以可能短期可能没有办法马上遏制这个病毒所以我觉得这个长期来看的话还是要规划这些人力的那个补足或者是训练比如说目前的兽医师只有8%是在从事这方面的工作你又怎么来引诱或者是说来吸引我们这些从事畜牧业的这些专业人才来从事这方面的防范作为确实 兽医师如果考上兽医师都喜欢去小动物"},{"start":2410.695,"end":2429.473,"text":"是 對 那我們要經濟動物大家都讓他們來從事這方面的工作所以我們這個部分應該是要加強他們的一些補貼或者是獎勵OK 可以嗎這個在畜牧法裡面我想應該是會部裡面會再同仇的再做一些商議好 謝謝那我們請衛福部謝謝來 請部長"},{"start":2434.727,"end":2445.366,"text":"我也很早對 部長現在如果查到違規的這些東西我們是怎麼來執行比如說它的SOP 時效 銷毀時程有沒有透明 有沒有一個監督的機制"},{"start":2447.744,"end":2466.677,"text":"委員您提的是說查到有來自於那個非洲豬瘟疫區的肉品那他就會違反兩個可能的這個違反樣態第一個是說他會違反我們在剛剛提到邊境輸入的時候他就要去申報因為在邊境"},{"start":2467.498,"end":2480.231,"text":"有申報的來自於這個這個非洲豬瘟疫區的直接就會退運或銷毀了根本不會進來所以會進來的都是非法輸入所以他就違反了我們食安法30條的規定那就會開罰16萬到"},{"start":2482.954,"end":2487.276,"text":"現在正在進行羅氏人才當中今年行政院有多給我們24位在邊境查驗的人力現在我們正在招募"},{"start":2501.383,"end":2515.24,"text":"我們看一下一些國外的一個成功的案例因為現在我們像才剛剛接觸這個病毒而且是非常的陌生不過在國際上應該是都已經努力了一段時間所以有一些成功的契機"},{"start":2517.54,"end":2538.587,"text":"可能它就是如果是失敗的話它大概有兩個原因就是最下面那一行就是可能我們在生物檢測這個部分的檢測不足第二個就是我剛才講的可能民眾沒有被告知還有或者是廠商沒有被告知就是human behavior這個部分它成功的契機大概有四個方向我給部長請你參考一下下一張"},{"start":2541.516,"end":2563.832,"text":"就是說可能因為有我們之前有一些國際的組織然後我們可能沒有在那個組織裡面可能需要去參考他的一些他的model裡面他已經有規劃好了他的一些路徑或者是說他應該怎麼做其實他這個知識都已經非常的充足希望國內跟國際要接軌而不是說我們國內做我們的都不去參考"},{"start":2564.352,"end":2581.44,"text":"目前越南 中國是在做什麼我覺得應該是要這樣然後有一些就是我們的風險的溝通這些風險溝通就是要跟我們這些弱品市場的業者或者是這些我們從事這方面的行業的人去做一些我們跟政府部門的一個媒合跟合作"},{"start":2581.88,"end":2603.258,"text":"看看這個病毒要怎麼防治最主要就是我們政府要大力來支持這些所有的損失跟以後的預防的一些就是裁員好不好好謝謝盧委員提供的這個寶貴的資料謝謝謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長請回接下來請陳昭志委員來做詢問謝謝主席麻煩"},{"start":2610.29,"end":2616.133,"text":"關務署副署長還有防檢署的杜署長請署長 副署長蘇副署長杜署長兩位署長早根據我的邏輯思考這個非洲這個豬瘟的病毒他不可能憑空出現在臺灣那應該就是說帶有病毒的豬肉產品他被夾帶入境了"},{"start":2637.87,"end":2652.671,"text":"但是這個豬肉檯面也不可能自己飛進台灣所以應該有三個途徑第一個就是旅客自己攜帶入境第二個是快遞包裹入境第三個是走私入境這三種途徑請問兩位認同嗎"},{"start":2655.767,"end":2681.683,"text":"是這三種途徑嘛那麼根據這個農業部最新的統計數據從2018年到10月23號旅客吸入的這個豬肉產品不管是自主丟棄或是被查獲那個防檢署會總有9511件違規輸入的產品那其中997件被查到是豬瘟是陽性也就是違規輸入的豬肉品當中有一成大概10.5%"},{"start":2683.524,"end":2698.261,"text":"有驗出非洲的植物病毒那這個比率是相當高的可是我要確認一下我一直到昨天晚上我才知道這個數字還只是僅限於旅客吸入的部分"},{"start":2699.639,"end":2729.359,"text":"只限於旅客吸入的部分喔這個是你們前兩天的報告就是房檢署的報告那這張圖我想請兩位收看這張圖這張圖是昨天房檢署回覆給我的資料我要了好多天辦公室同時有詢問說快遞輸入的豬肉產品裁罰案件數當中我們就問他快遞輸入這個途徑進來而且被裁罰的有多少裡面是含著非洲豬瘟的病毒"},{"start":2730.44,"end":2745.193,"text":"但是您可以想見嗎這個署長房檢署的同仁回答說這個部分因為關務署查獲快遞包括有豬肉製品的時候只會用書面通知房檢署不會有樣本"},{"start":2746.654,"end":2762.725,"text":"換句話說根本就不會去檢驗是否有非洲豬瘟這件事非常讓我震驚當你發現有豬肉產品的時候根本不做下一步的檢驗就是通知書面通知這個防檢署"},{"start":2763.869,"end":2781.748,"text":"做記錄當然更不會切片啊什麼讓他們有機會去做這個豬瘟的檢驗那所以我想請教防疫組認為快遞包裹的這個豬肉不用驗不用驗非洲豬瘟嗎我想請署長跟副署長兩位說明一下為什麼不需要去驗"},{"start":2782.509,"end":2809.206,"text":"那個委員我跟您報告我更正資料沒有您剛剛講的那個數據是所有不僅僅是旅客你包括國際或郵輪包括還有包括快捷這些攔下來的攔截物我們全部把它收集起來一定燒毀這第一個步驟一定燒毀那燒毀前因為海關通知我們這一定是被檢出檢出物才會通知我們假設毒品就通知其他的一個單位那我們第一個動作也會抽檢"},{"start":2809.986,"end":2823.081,"text":"那這些的抽檢數就一定第一時間送到這個獸醫所去做檢測所以這個裡面才發現到說所有的丟棄物裡面有10%是屬於陽性的其他9%是陰性的"},{"start":2825.043,"end":2843.113,"text":"就是說你那個說母數好了因為真正母數沒有人知道但是我要再確認一下因為我昨天才詢問那個上面那個有快遞輸入的這個裁罰案件你也看到很少嘛我們要問的就是說快遞輸入的這個裁罰案件中可是同仁就回答說關務署查獲"},{"start":2845.334,"end":2872.468,"text":"這個快遞包裹裡面有豬肉產品的時候只是書面回覆書面告知這個防檢署他不會有樣本的你沒有樣本你怎麼抽驗跟委員報告跟委員報告海關就是在查驗這個入境旅客行李不管是這個在機場或者是這個郵輪的旅客的行李以及這個郵包"},{"start":2873.729,"end":2893.936,"text":"或者是快遞貨物包括空運快遞海運快遞我們只要是查獲是裡頭有豬肉或者是豬肉製品的話我們立即就是通知房檢署我們通知他是由他們來處理那房檢署來他們會把這個按貨那他們就會是拿回去處理會去做這個檢驗那我從這個數字來看那有可能這幾件你這快遞輸入的東西就這幾件被塞到有這個嗎"},{"start":2901.398,"end":2917.71,"text":"這個部分我還是要再釐清你現在是用這個說法我也讓你有充分時間來說明但是事實上我還是有質疑的就是說旅客吸入的也許你們是比較能夠去處理不管是他丟棄或是說你查獲然後但是快遞的部分"},{"start":2918.331,"end":2928.723,"text":"這個是非常量非常龐大那個請報告就是快遞的部分我們是書面通知防檢署來海關這邊來處理讓他們來處理的話就會把這個我們查獲的這一這個都切片嗎"},{"start":2935.251,"end":2957.233,"text":"那回去的話是房檢署他們會去做相關的檢驗這就是房檢署後續他的處理好 這個我要再確認我暫時就是說你就這樣說法那個黑色框框 下一張這是我從臉書一個公開的團購社團的截圖他標榜第一手是大陸源頭的發貨裡面賣好多豬絞精什麼魚香肉絲飯內含小豬肉的自煮火鍋"},{"start":2958.294,"end":2978.1,"text":"啊其實任何人你在網路上輸入這幾個字啊大陸中國零食啊馬上就有這種購買連結啦什麼蝦皮啊臉書這個團購12團line社群的但是這些不都是在這個邊境一查到就要被查棄的嗎為什麼在網路上可以賣而且很自豪說我你看左邊那個黑框的那個"},{"start":2978.9,"end":2996.13,"text":"我發貨就是說發貨速度低代表說供貨速度很穩定喔而且他支持各式各樣的這個物流那我覺得國人入境大家都會互相提醒我們不要帶這個肉製品大家都很努力怎麼這麼久了我們發現這個政府的責任好像是有問題喔公開的團購社團這麼猖獗"},{"start":2999.252,"end":3016.717,"text":"到現在今天還在營運喔那我繼續讓大家看紅色框框紅色框框紅色框框是在你在網路上隨便打這個集運特貨等一下這兩個字詞我再想請教你們理不理解馬上就會出現蝦皮或是小紅書的這個廣告業者的截圖"},{"start":3019.434,"end":3036.092,"text":"他甚至會告訴你集運業者標榜說我可以運送特殊敏感貨物那在小紅書上面甚至說直接說我可以承接雞爪還有豬腳筋等等的訂貨那我先請教副署長您知道什麼叫做集運什麼叫特貨嗎"},{"start":3037.441,"end":3053.657,"text":"您知道嗎 我跟 我跟委員報告其實我們現在每天都有上網去做搜尋那只要看到這些違規的廣告全部都會到我們合作就是有電商"},{"start":3054.358,"end":3068.693,"text":"平台合作的請他下架那假設就讓他們有幾個的措施現在大概有屏蔽措施屏蔽措施就是會讓你看不到那假設有漏網之魚看得到那麼他們也會做即時處理那第二個"},{"start":3071.215,"end":3093.974,"text":"他們也會自主管理時間很有限 我等下跟主席多聊一兩分鐘AI的部分假設是台灣來自台灣的AI下訂的時候你也買不到你也買不到那即使你訂了你刷的是台灣的信用卡但是他公然在網路上你跟我說他買不到而且長久這個好像很穩定供貨那我想再請問一下夾帶豬肉的產品回到我們今天主題"},{"start":3094.634,"end":3112.389,"text":"有多少來自這種集運包裹你知道集運嘛各地買然後集中在一起一起然後再合併包裹然後這樣子可以減少運費啊那我再說明一下有多少來自還是你沒有辦法講清楚不是不是因為這樣講是所有的包裹是海關這一邊他們過關以後然後X光檢查有疑慮他就會"},{"start":3113.81,"end":3129.782,"text":"第一時間通知我們我們就過去來判定那假設有豬肉產品我們開箱有豬肉產品我們一定收集以後我們抽驗然後呢集合在一起這種特殊疾運不是只有中國運到台灣因為越南也有因為這次爆發的這個非洲豬瘟"},{"start":3130.643,"end":3146.637,"text":"好像有報告說是病毒豬是越南的病毒豬所以有很大可能這一次是來自越南的豬肉產品這還有病毒造成但是我要講說這麼明目張膽的宣傳這個敏感貨物 特殊貨物請問關務署有掌握這些業者嗎你有掌握這些業者嗎"},{"start":3148.411,"end":3171.526,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個是平台平台這個部分還有這個這個就是電商平台其實不是屬於這個業者不是海關這邊轄管不是海關那是誰呢但是我們這邊我們這邊就是我們現在因為我們要加強來這個查核我們現在會要求這個以後快遞貨物網購"},{"start":3173.667,"end":3183.631,"text":"網購的這個貨物的一個報關的時候我們要求他必須要申報電商平台跟集運商的這個相關資訊讓我們去去做這個整個一個風險的一個管控那你剛剛你剛才提到了你X光夠不夠啊你檢疫數這個全這個數量夠嗎集貨包裹你全部有破包嗎集貨集運的這種包裹現在很多耶我們快遞貨物全部百分之百過X光"},{"start":3198.897,"end":3225.791,"text":"全部100%所以我們如果在影像判讀上面看到有異常就會拉下來那個數字還是很有問題啦謝謝你 那我請教一下江署長你們的預算裡面有一個科目叫做食品邊境查驗及國內外稽查管理請問這個科目有用在夾帶豬肉包裹還有去驗豬瘟病毒的部分嗎這個費用有用在這個地方嗎"},{"start":3227.132,"end":3243.802,"text":"我們所有費用都在邊境查驗的時候在應用那對於食品裡面對非洲豬瘟因為非洲豬瘟是對人體是沒有危害所以我們在食品面其實目前是沒有特別去驗但是我們有這個能力但是我們目前"},{"start":3244.082,"end":3264.682,"text":"就是說目前 我現在在業務的處理就是說你們是依照食安法剛剛部長有報告就是對進口食品 藥品有沒有違法這個添加當然我們最重要就是譬如說這個有沒有瘦肉精等等那當海關發現有夾帶豬肋包裹的時候以及動植物 要涉及動植物的檢驗檢疫的時候 防疫檢驗他會通知的是防檢署"},{"start":3266.304,"end":3272.448,"text":"他不是通知你們 因為他們要來進行那個病毒的核酸檢驗我這個說法對嗎食藥署沒有負責做這個非洲溫豬的這個檢驗有沒有我們沒有 目前沒有做非洲溫豬但是我們準備有這樣子的量能做核酸檢驗好 你有這個能力 但是目前這個業務不是你們嘛我要談的還是一個啦 就是假訊息啦這個好 這個卓冠廷民進黨側翼啦"},{"start":3293.101,"end":3314.856,"text":"山林媒體等等啦 他們就在造謠啊說這個是食藥署的邊境管制預算是因為這個不能山 因為跟豬瘟是有關這次就是因為山在這裡豬瘟的部分就爆發了 這寫的這樣堂堂皇皇這個整個就是假消息在誤導啊這個部分不是食藥署的工作嘛不是食藥署工作嘛"},{"start":3316.687,"end":3340.476,"text":"測個病毒不是你們在做的嘛測病毒不是 但是針對我們的進口食品包括保健來源所有的是屬於非疫區裡面跟疫區裡面的我會清楚的規定那你現在沒錢去做這個所以今天住戶份爆發了有點這樣你要不要做一個釐清呢就麻煩署長您就再講一下您現在負責的東西是什麼那筆預算是用在什麼地方"},{"start":3341.46,"end":3361.941,"text":"我們對於這邊境的預算其實我們的人力去查查所有的商品所有的商品也包含了我們可能不是在合法的進口的區域的任何商品不管是食品裡面或者是違法的肉品的進口非疫區的肉品等等都會是我們查查"},{"start":3362.381,"end":3390.229,"text":"但是我們並沒有查查的時候去檢驗所以檢驗那一塊的話事實上是在跨部署裡面跟農業部進一步的協作這一次的豬瘟的事件是跟食藥署應該是不掛鉤的因為委員這樣提議的話我們非常感謝也沒有你的責任嘛是不是是這樣嗎好謝謝謝謝謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝陳委希望請回那個要不要請拿一杯溫開水給杜署長只有待"},{"start":3391.176,"end":3407.65,"text":"還是沒有誰有活片可以提供給杜署長這已經可能因為非洲豬瘟搞得很累那個署長如果要給杜署長提供一些訊息可能別的官員在背景可能要小聲一點好不好 我剛才不好意思把你岔掉來 請陳清惠委員謝謝主席 我想請石部長來 請石部長"},{"start":3422.973,"end":3423.114,"text":"曾委員長"},{"start":3426.587,"end":3455.188,"text":"部長好這個議題其實我也非常的關心而且跟非洲豬瘟一樣非常嚴重很多人已經在新聞上看到最近為什麼大家又發現兒科醫師大出走是因為北榮直接說他們有四位總醫師都不願意留任那另外你也看到台大醫院的主任已經下海開始值班那我昨天有去請教了一些台大小兒科的前輩他們說像今年錄取例"},{"start":3457.209,"end":3480.059,"text":"1.5他們雖然把它做成一個網路上的笑話是苦中作樂啦但他說錄取率1.5已經持續三年了那為什麼今年才特別被人家注意是因為主任也必須要下海值班你可能以為錄取率而科醫師1.5是單純台大問題我們攤開全國的各專科醫師最新住院醫師"},{"start":3481.44,"end":3506.769,"text":"招收率還有兒科住院醫師招收率等等這是平均就是五成不是只有台大醫院問題是全國的問題但為什麼你需要來搶救這件事情是因為醫學中心都已經淪陷了醫學中心是最後一線全國大家不懂的不會的就送到醫學中心台大榮總等等的"},{"start":3507.589,"end":3532.334,"text":"那連醫學中心都變成主任院長要下來值班那他們的教學怎麼辦研究怎麼辦行政怎麼辦所以這是一個惡性循環我知道您之前曾經提過說你要去培養急重症人才尤其是兒科急診專科醫師的人才這樣才可以舒緩兒科的人力嘛結果呢我跟您報告最近兩年全國就有"},{"start":3534.435,"end":3561.548,"text":"31個兒科的急診醫師離開醫院您是急診醫師你很懂啊那在基隆市新竹市像這樣子都會區兒科醫師平均一個人照顧是300到500個人宜蘭一個兒科醫師要照顧的是21820人遠超過全國平均1165人所以我認為您這個問題因為其實累積了多年那今年一口氣爆發"},{"start":3563.171,"end":3579.398,"text":"你可能需要更快的方式來處理你有沒有什麼想法跟委員說明確實我看了這個近五年的這個兒科的招收率我們現在兒科的容額大概在每年130個左右那麼兒科的招收率大概都在六成"},{"start":3580.198,"end":3594.143,"text":"去年才到七成勉強到七成所以換言之就是各位您的這個資料看到就七八十位啦所以以這樣的數目確實難以因應全國的需求您講的六成是他願意訓練還有留任問題"},{"start":3595.583,"end":3619.415,"text":"那就是后来训练完之后的流向流向的话目前大概三成八留在医院那另外有六成二就是在基层开业所以我们现在从去年开始第一步对于这个走儿科的住院医师有津贴就一年每个月有一万块的津贴给走儿科的住院医师以及他的fellow他比如说他是选儿童遗传"},{"start":3619.955,"end":3646.554,"text":"或者是儿童的一些次专科重症的ICU急诊次专科类似像这样如果是小儿外科的话每个月是津贴是3万这去年开始我们再观察后面第二个是我们在总额的部分明年会特别匡列从0到6岁在总额的部分匡列249亿这专门给儿科来调整支付标准"},{"start":3646.874,"end":3665.932,"text":"然后保障1.1块钱所以把所有的0到6岁儿童的住院的费用要全面性的调高那么让这个在医院里面做集中症的这个儿科医师的收入可以提高那这是第二个第三个在贫贱的部分我们过去贫贱是像一般性贫贱"},{"start":3666.573,"end":3685.441,"text":"那會特別融入在醫學中心的部分都需要有兒科的專門評鑑過去我們是只有兒童醫院有專門兒童的評鑑那我們是有四家兒童醫院明年開始我們的醫學中心的兒科所有的醫學中心的兒科都是我們重點"},{"start":3686.201,"end":3711.679,"text":"要平的部分也把它融入在評鑑裡頭同時另外一個因為剛剛跟委員說明了大概有六成二的兒科醫師是在基層開業所以我們包含了0到3歲的幼兒專責醫師制度還有從兒童的核心醫院到責任醫院我們也結合開業的醫師大家一起來照顧"},{"start":3712.82,"end":3739.755,"text":"我先问一个问题刚刚那个住院医师fellow可以多拿一万很好但你看今年北荣的问题就是他们结束了住院医师他是之后的留任对啊对他就是训练的时候有然后之后要训练完之后有没有要留在医院所以我们才会把他再纳入在平健里头同时把儿科儿童的住院的给他拉高那保障一个总额那我刚刚提到的"},{"start":3740.666,"end":3760.55,"text":"急诊的专者儿童医师怎么办他流失很快没有人要做我们是一步一步来因为如果我们现在把所有的儿童到急诊都要儿科来看会雪上加霜所以我们现在先不要要求说所有的儿童到急诊来都要儿科医师来看"},{"start":3761.29,"end":3787.557,"text":"反而是应该先第一步的他需要只要做一些比较那个小baby就是我们比较小的确实是需要然后用区域联防的方式儿科用照会的方式就好然后我们一步一步的在把这个儿童的照护强化在这个急诊的部分所以我们另外有一个网络就是儿童医疗网的部分那个是去强化儿童的急诊你这样讲急诊医师可能也会跳起来"},{"start":3788.562,"end":3812.898,"text":"不会啦我是急诊出生的我们过去的训练里头就包含处理儿童的问题因为急诊医师的流失现在跟儿科医师的流失是在比速度这个急诊的问题是另外一块那就是刚刚提到那个急诊的拥塞那个需要处理所以我们现在积极的在处理这个急诊拥塞的问题来降低急诊医师的负荷这样好这个"},{"start":3814.627,"end":3834.029,"text":"當然我們很贊成您做這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫但很多全國的兒童醫院院長他們完全不敢公開講所以我來幫他們講他們希望問你說優化兒童醫療照護計畫的錢已經11月了但是還沒有撥下來"},{"start":3834.89,"end":3848.032,"text":"是不是真的因为你每年都说明年会改善但现在要11月了还没有给钱医院要自己垫像你这样子的效率你刚讲很多0到6岁拨了一笔钱等等你这个效率是怎么支持儿童医疗"},{"start":3849.795,"end":3867.954,"text":"预算是应该已经有在这里现在是拨款您提的是拨款的速度这个我再了解一下那个意思是在这个拨款的部分我会来这个注意这个拨款的速度一周你会告诉我我才可以告诉这些院长一周内一周内对好"},{"start":3868.434,"end":3890.748,"text":"另外也跟委員報告就是說今年另外還有一個這個叫做健康台灣生根計畫這個到明年底一共是160億那裡面對於這個兒童的兒童醫院都拿到了這個每個醫院幾乎都是有1億的補助在給他們去發展依照不同醫院提出來的計畫好 再來有一個是"},{"start":3893.109,"end":3920.234,"text":"勞動部我質詢勞動部結果勞動部說要問你啊勞動部部長直接走到我前面說這個問題你要問的是衛福部部長這是他們即將推出的看一下這張圖的右邊勞動部說呢未來1月1號很快兩個月後就要開始了可以用日來申請育嬰留職停薪所以他在小孩子兩歲以內好像可以請30天最多"},{"start":3920.914,"end":3943.94,"text":"那我們會遇到什麼問題因為醫事人員跟托育人員已經開始跟我陳情那你一定要盡快準備因為趕快找勞動部溝通你只剩下兩個月可以準備第一這個我自己也有請過現在暈流停最少大概是一個月像我們這樣子醫事人員護理師醫師放射師等等的我們要跑兩個地方一個是公會嘛"},{"start":3944.6,"end":3970.27,"text":"公會是辦你的職業登記你現在的這個有在做這個業務還是沒有在做這個業務這個是公會在管的那衛生局就是管你的職登就是說我現在在哪一個機構上班所以之前還沒有實施彈性暈流停的時候護理師就已經抱怨連連的因為他們要跑流程要跑公會要跑衛生局還要跟院方要停職證明復職證明"},{"start":3972.311,"end":3991.412,"text":"这个我了解这个就是停业登记就是说如果你是没有执行业务要办理这个停业登记那这个是短期的不用这个在行政程序上我会请一致私立课发文这种短期的"},{"start":3992.173,"end":4018.03,"text":"这个育婴流停有的是长期啦你一次两年的那你就要先去这个办理这个没有一个月的也要啊一个月两个月三个月都要啊都要啊对我们会把它处理这个程序上我们来谈一下现在很多护理师他其实是愿意的他不一定想要请长期他觉得这样一天一天请是很好但我不希望这些流程太过繁琐到最后他就不想请了反而一口气请久一点"},{"start":4020.493,"end":4033.512,"text":"我們現在當然很在意的是護理師護理師也有一個護理師黃但其實醫師 藥師 檢驗師所有的醫事員你都必須要一起把他研擬進去所以你多久內多久內一個月內"},{"start":4034.193,"end":4059.487,"text":"一个月内可以给我们这个然后另外你也会发给全部各地的卫生局所有的卫生局跟医院去遵循去简化这个程序不需要这样很繁复那第二个这个也是您的业务范围内就是托育人员托育人员他们有这样子的一个系统可以看到这个机构他每一个托育人员目前的托育数规定是1比5但是如果他做到1比4是可以有补助的"},{"start":4059.927,"end":4080.747,"text":"也是一样遇到一样的问题假使这位托育人员他要请弹性孕假就必须要把他移除移除就是停业停业就要把他的托育数放到别人的身上所以他也许一个机构他其实是很体恤他的同仁的所以他让他请弹性但却因为这样子影响到他拿补助的机会这样怎么办呢"},{"start":4082.715,"end":4101.213,"text":"就是说他没有额外的不是他让他请了弹性育婴可是他的就类似我们的呼病笔1比4个小孩本来他可以达到被你补助的被你奖励的结果他就被迫变成1比5他就拿不到怎么办"},{"start":4103.294,"end":4126.336,"text":"因為這個還牽涉到那個這個托育人員的loading所以如果馬上就說通通就他的loading也增加了他等於是這個機構沒有多餘的彈性能力像在醫院的話他這個育嬰留庭的時候就會有另外的護理人員來照顧因為之前當然因為之前育嬰留庭比較久"},{"start":4128.118,"end":4137.845,"text":"比較長是月嘛以月為單位的嘛那當然就可以去儲備這些人物現在是1月1號改成以日為單位以日"},{"start":4139.369,"end":4161.483,"text":"你是不是要找社家署短期我是覺得還可以的但是如果是比較長的時間也不好這樣的話那個托育的品質也會下降我再找社家署討論一下第一個問題是這個主席第二個問題很快要結束第二個問題是我現在問了所有的托營機構還有地方政府的社會局現在地方政府社會局量能是不足的"},{"start":4161.903,"end":4184.816,"text":"所以對他們而言也是一樣的意思他們現在光是跑這個行政流程就是說他們要請一個月的暈假他們就是跑行政流程要辦理停業倒職離職等等至少要三天以上比剛講到的衛生局還要久三天以上喔所以他們現在也無所適從他不知道說他請了他必須要等到這個流程跑完他才可以放這個假"},{"start":4185.616,"end":4202.468,"text":"還是說他可以先去照顧他小孩一天然後回來等這個流程跑完沒關係並且地方的社會局應該也沒有辦法應付這樣子的狀況跟我剛講到一模一樣行政程序跟照顧比這個也是一個月內可以拿到您的報告謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"},{"start":4214.269,"end":4228.708,"text":"接下來請邱正軍委員來做懸檔主席好啊我們請農業部請署長房間一署署長房間署"},{"start":4239.005,"end":4259.262,"text":"昨天我在這邊問了陳俊吉部長的時候他很肯定的說非洲豬瘟不是本土的所以就是從邊境放進來的那既然是從外面來的那就三個方式嘛第一是人帶進來第二是貨物包裹寄進來第三是走私進來那還有其他可能嗎"},{"start":4261.784,"end":4270.92,"text":"目前這三個也是我們的原因之一我知道會有其他的方式嗎不會是鳥帶進來的吧不會 它跟禽流感不一樣"},{"start":4272.689,"end":4300.221,"text":"所以就是這三個 還有嗎目前我們追查的方向也是如此那從2005年國際通報發生非洲豬瘟的有83個國家那最近三年曾發生非洲豬瘟的國家也有75個那我想請問一下我們農業部現在認定非洲豬瘟高風險的地區有幾個我們認定的是有39個為什麼只有39個 其他75個我們最近三年有75個為什麼只有認定39個"},{"start":4302.372,"end":4315.007,"text":"其實我們是依照國際疫情的趨勢去做滾動的檢查那什麼叫趨勢咧 他們這些有發生不就是高風險地區嗎我請副組長說明一下好"},{"start":4315.703,"end":4344.616,"text":"是各位報告我們都會即時的就是搜尋國際組織的網易還有各國的一些疫情的資訊來了解說在哪些國家發生疫情還有哪些國家可能會途經這個地區作為一個中轉旅客中轉的地區來輸到台灣來所以我們這是一個滾動檢討的一個過程我現在比較好奇的就是說這些75個國家有這個3年內有這個案例那為什麼我們只追蹤到39個這個原因在哪裡為什麼只有39"},{"start":4346.141,"end":4351.428,"text":"其實39個國家是作為裁罰的依據只要來自非洲其他75個減掉39都大概是31 36 36個他不會裁罰意思是這樣"},{"start":4360.8,"end":4385.92,"text":"農業部有公告一個非洲豬瘟的非疫區的國家的名單那它就發生啊那為什麼它是非疫區咧你跟我們講要經過我們的書面資料的審核跟必要時做實地評估通過之後才會列在農業部你評估的標準是什麼我們有一個專家學組的委員會會先審視它的書面資料那要多少才要發生幾個案例才能夠算是高風險地區"},{"start":4387.839,"end":4407.936,"text":"應該是回到剛剛跟委員報告的議題就是說我們列這個非疫區的名單如果不在這非疫區名單就是疫區只是要不要裁罰就是39個國家我覺得很奇怪你們這樣追蹤這樣怎麼會擋得住咧對不對他75個我們現在知道三年內就有75個國家我們只追蹤我們只限制管制這個39個這不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":4411.141,"end":4437.288,"text":"因為我們的活豬跟豬肉相關產品都只能從非洲豬瘟的非疫區國家輸入 疫區進來的都不能進來但只是後續的採拔我們是看這個高風險的國家 我還聽不懂你講什麼我是現在是講說那75為什麼你追蹤39那另外的是可以進來就對了 這樣子好不好 那個委員我這個的詳細的在會後以後我今天就提供資料給您說我們這個很奇怪嘛好你等一下再給我資料"},{"start":4440.387,"end":4462.598,"text":"我這樣講 就是說邊境管制就算我們沒有這次非洲豬瘟的問題像這些75個國家我們應該我們自己邊境管制也要更嚴格不是嗎 對不對其實我們這7年來就是如此你剛剛就講了就沒有做到第二個 現在我在講人入境"},{"start":4463.649,"end":4491.113,"text":"如果旅客或國人帶加工肉製品入境台灣都要申報檢疫如果偷帶查到就20萬對不對不管是不是從非洲豬瘟疫區入境都一樣對不對沒錯吧那我再問這個關務署我們財政部我們現在一年總共進口多少國際包裹"},{"start":4492.607,"end":4506.617,"text":"我們大概如果是快遞的話一年大概有6000平均6000萬件左右一年只有6000萬件快遞我查的資料2021年11月單月就有619萬大概就6000萬左右一年就6000萬嘛那針對剛剛農業部所說非洲豬瘟高風險地區進來的國際包裹我們的抽菸率是多少"},{"start":4517.718,"end":4541.169,"text":"跟委員報告我們就是包裹就是不管是快遞或者是這個郵包我們全部都是百分之百的X光我現在講的是人工抽驗那人工抽驗的話就是說在這個X光影像上面看到如果有異常我們就是會馬上來做這個人工的一個開箱的一個查驗你要看到異常才會開箱"},{"start":4544.808,"end":4565.671,"text":"對 因為這個一方面就是人力的問題另外一方面就是通關速度的一個問題所以為什麼要利用這個X光的一個影像我們一般低價免貨物稅的抽菸率大概是3%左右對吧那是平均對啊 平均3%嘛那高風險地區的抽菸率有更高嗎"},{"start":4567.639,"end":4582.549,"text":"高風險的其實其實就是說剛剛跟委員報告的高風險的也是就是從X光的影像來看然後我們會加強不是啊 我覺得很奇怪你一般都是3%左右那高風險你不會提高嗎"},{"start":4585.516,"end":4598.665,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們針對高風險的譬如說是從這個中國大陸這邊大概我們的就只有中國大陸是高風險地區其他地方不是嗎跟委員報告大概是4.59%左右"},{"start":4602.441,"end":4618.599,"text":"4.59%這樣我大概算了一下就是從你們112年到114年兩年半大概放行的這個1億5000萬個包裹那關武署查獲只有大概1321件那通報比率不到千分之一的千分之一"},{"start":4619.439,"end":4636.673,"text":"這樣的數字難怪你們的報告完全不敢寫出來還好意思說邊境多嚴格你們剛才直接說這個食安五環邊境管理早就已經棄守了嘛那現在每一件都是用S光來檢查那就表示你們這樣就是嚴格防疫的意思囉"},{"start":4638.62,"end":4657.116,"text":"跟委員報告其實X光檢查是本來就一定要經過X光檢查你現在所謂的精進作為我看到你們報告裡面說精進作為那要怎麼精進是像跟委員報告是提高人工開箱查驗比例嗎是提高人工的一個開箱查驗比例你剛剛講說X光照道有問題"},{"start":4660.819,"end":4679.662,"text":"你們才會人工開箱那你現在要精進你現在又說是要用人工開箱來精進你這個邏輯就不對了嘛因為委員報告是說剛才說這個S光這是本來就是我們會經過S光也就是說你們人工抽驗不是依照S光的這個看到有問題的來"},{"start":4681.524,"end":4694.414,"text":"來做這個開箱檢驗嘛 對不對那你現在要精進就是要精進要提高我們人工開箱的抽檢率對不對跟我們報告X光如果有異常一定開箱因為我們有經過我們的風險管理它的通關方式那你說精進的話你要怎麼做我們精進的話目前我們針對這個查驗的件數我們至少要提高20%以上"},{"start":4705.393,"end":4717.962,"text":"精進 就是要查控那你要多少人工 你知道嗎至少要提高20%以下總共以後要20% 是什麼時候開始是 我們就立即就開始了而且我們24號 你人手過嗎"},{"start":4719.168,"end":4740.681,"text":"我們現在就是說就是在這個我們的人力的一個我們就是全部充分來利用然後就是盡量你提高我下個月會開始看你的抽菸率那我現在在問動物製品有1000就是移送的這是1321件裡面有269件是豬肉那請問一下開罰多少罰了幾件"},{"start":4746.867,"end":4754.733,"text":"委員報告 這個開罰的部分是房檢署這邊好 你好開罰是委員講的是郵包對好 郵包大概是開罰9件開罰9件 14 9案吧對180萬是那實際查獲違規的包裹有幾件實際查獲的包裹是幾件海關已給我們調查就是9件"},{"start":4775.529,"end":4790.325,"text":"就只有9件 就只查到9件就對了查到9件嗎269件是出漏欸 那你為什麼只開罰 只開罰這個9件我修正一下 海關移給我們的1300件左右那整個立案的大概是9件"},{"start":4790.968,"end":4805.491,"text":"對啊 為什麼呢有269件是豬肉耶因為身份的認證的問題對啊 我就覺得你們的規定很奇怪你知道嗎你們現在規定說如果他不在非洲豬瘟疫區裡面寄豬肉這個製品過來是可以的"},{"start":4807.275,"end":4833.846,"text":"那第二個如果他從疫區寄肉品來台灣寄件人跟收件人不一樣查到也不罰 不行那個委員我報告一下所有只要肉品絕對都不能進來不管你是非洲豬瘟如果是第一次從疫區自己帶進來也不罰嗎完全都不行那為什麼269件你只罰9件那是身份問題因為當時他在登記的時候有時候是假身份所以我們去追查 假身份你追不到"},{"start":4834.466,"end":4848.204,"text":"追不到 他那個追不到所以他是用假名字對 用假名字總會有人領嘛就是不敢領他總會有個地址有人去領啊所以我們追到收件人 那收件人否認不是他寄的"},{"start":4849.309,"end":4867.749,"text":"每個人都這樣玩就好啦 你是怎麼把關呢這個目前是這樣 因為這個也有一個考量一個情形不是 這個就很大的一個漏洞嘛你不覺得嗎 對不對他用假名字 然後我們不罰 但也許他用假名字 可是他總要領這個東西嘛沒有領 其實很多是沒有領那他寄進來幹嘛"},{"start":4870.111,"end":4890.404,"text":"邱委員我先報告一下難道是共產黨的陰謀所有的貨品是進不來也就已經 貨是一定銷毀但人的處理上我們去追罰員那追罰員就有身份的問題我知道嘛 我的意思是說他寄這個肉進來你說你當然沒有給他進來沒錯啊我的意思是說他寄進來他總是有一個目的啊對不對 不然他寄這個東西幹什麼"},{"start":4891.505,"end":4917.721,"text":"因為現在就有一個問題假設說好我們現在他是假身份我們追查到他然後他說不是我不是我叫人家記的也不是我認識的人記的那如果我們開罰那真的是就又錯殺了但是這個所以我覺得你們要想個辦法了好不好因為時間也不夠最後一個問題最後一個問題啊主席不好意思剛剛講的39個國家的那經我們查是因為跟我們國家有航班晚來"},{"start":4918.781,"end":4934.416,"text":"所以是39個 盤點以後對是39個國家那我再問就是說最後一個就是昨天我們部長說這個基因定序明天會出來可是又說中國沒上傳這個序列所以沒辦法判斷來源這個定序不是就"},{"start":4935.217,"end":4963.498,"text":"比对全球吗要找出最接近的病毒株研判可能传入的来源你们之前也说其中有一部分是跟越南病毒很相近那现在怎么样现在是中国的序列没有中国序列就没办法比对是这样吗不是 跟委员报告因为病毒是会演化的那我们病毒的基因序列就入了他的身份证那我们之前的那这样防疫有用吗"},{"start":4964.839,"end":4988.22,"text":"基本上你還是要知道它病毒的序列才知道它的病毒的特性你不是說它會演變它會演化就像Covid-19一樣它也會演化那你查得不到它來源就對了所以如果是它有公布最新的序列我們的序列就像禽流感一樣它有公布最新的序列了我們就可以知道它從哪一個路徑譬如說我今天比對到跟北海道一樣它就是從北海道那個路徑"},{"start":4989.281,"end":5010.916,"text":"我這樣講就是說他講中國大陸沒有嘛對不對那你應該也不管中國大陸有沒有全世界應該都要比對不是這樣嗎當然比對全世界可是如果今天比到像剛剛非洲豬有24個基因型如果我們比到非洲的基因型跟我們不一樣那對我們這個病毒的意義一點都沒有病毒的序列就可以比較可以用來追蹤它的可能的來源"},{"start":5011.996,"end":5039.912,"text":"對 然後所以如果他不提供最新的那有可能其實像你當然應該是這樣講我們先比對嘛全世界先比對嘛也不一定是中國大陸來的所以我覺得我們會送上那個我希望你們這個這個料敵從寬啦不要太狹隘這個病毒是有可能從全世界進來那我希望我們的防疫這個要做的這個嚴格一點才能保護我們的這個養豬農民好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5042.162,"end":5057.947,"text":"好 謝謝協委 謝謝各位官員請回接下來請王育民委員來做宣達謝主席 我要先請衛福部部長請時部長"},{"start":5062.423,"end":5080.291,"text":"因為今天是未還委員會部長來還是不能坐在旁邊我先問部長這個昨天你跟賴總統有出席一個記者會那這個活動裡面特別提到了這個健康台灣深耕計畫五年要有"},{"start":5083.972,"end":5093.916,"text":"489億那另外一個你提到了健康幣那本席就要就教你就是目前這一個健康台灣深耕計劃5年489億請問預算編在哪裡送進來立法院了沒"},{"start":5098.978,"end":5108.286,"text":"我們是逐年提報預算那今年是已經有在預算審查已經完成的那明年的預算我們也編在115年度的預算書裡頭"},{"start":5111.451,"end":5134.273,"text":"那你的健康币是编在这个深耕台湾计划里面吗不是这个是刚刚提到的那个深耕计划是给相关的这个医院还有诊所区域性的还有这个工会有些工会也得到这个计划所以他们是去做包含这个优化医事人员职业"},{"start":5135.334,"end":5164.76,"text":"條件包含這個智慧醫療的發展包含人才的培育等等這些所以那個都不是我們所以不包含健康幣嗎不包含行政機關要執行的對 本席就要就教你你所對外宣布的健康幣明年第一季就要實施但是我們看一下現在的預算不知道你是編在哪一個屬下面因為找不到那之前我們辦公室也有問就說還沒編還沒編明年第一季就要上路"},{"start":5165.4,"end":5185.321,"text":"跟委員報告是說我們這個健康幣我們主要主管機關做的是那個資訊的這個架構所以不用錢對 那以我們本來的科技計畫在執行我們本來就有一些行政的預算在這個你不用新增預算嗎你不是說很好康就是還可以抽腳踏車還有很多的獎品"},{"start":5185.982,"end":5208.555,"text":"那个东西是要跟民间合作的啦所以你意思是健康币的推动所有的规划到执行你完全不用新增预算还是在我们本来的预算里头去执行那个资讯跟委员报告就是说简单的讲我们会第一个他的那个健康币的收集是用我们现在的健康存折"},{"start":5209.375,"end":5226.763,"text":"去扩充功能所以它等於我們每年都有健康準確的預算然後所有的獎項都是廠商捐你們都不用變預算然後我們是跟這個合作第一階段明年是第一階段而已那麼跟業者民間來合作譬如說他願意那你明年的第一季預計什麼時候實施"},{"start":5228.395,"end":5243.111,"text":"现在还在下阶当中没有那么快所以计划还不够完整还没有办法完成那你什么时候可以完整本席很想了解你整个健康币的年底之前我们整个的规划就会出来了"},{"start":5243.331,"end":5266.883,"text":"年底12月嗎那麻煩你這一個整個健康幣的執行的相關的計劃就是要送給這個委員會我們要了解你怎麼執行還有包括你的預算邊緣你剛剛是說不會增加任何新增的計劃因為很快委員會可能就要排預算審查了那你如果沒有這一筆預算的話那你真的就要100%去募款了你就沒有這筆錢了"},{"start":5267.703,"end":5296.874,"text":"我们会来努力用我们本来的预算里面在科技的部因为这个就是一些科技平台的建立用我们原本的一些预算来所以不新增预算但你必须交代是在原来哪些预算好不好因为这样可能会排挤到你原来要做的事情到时候再请委员支持我们相关的这些我希望你们交计划然后你的预算要来自于哪里这个都要清清楚楚我们才可以监督才知道你这个计划是用口号还是真的可以诉诸行动去实施"},{"start":5299.161,"end":5302.673,"text":"接下來我要問這一個防疫的問題今天來的"},{"start":5303.925,"end":5328.725,"text":"各部會的代表跟那個邊境防疫有關的房檢署還有這個關務署請上台我們可以看到蘇貞昌院長前院長他在非洲豬瘟開始之後呢他其實也發了一篇的臉書那我感覺他是憂心忡忡覺得是不是大家螺絲鬆了所以趕快提醒大家因為他好不容易他當時他最驕傲的政績就是"},{"start":5329.305,"end":5344.038,"text":"守住把非洲豬瘟擋在境外所以大家都印象深刻這個當時鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的時候他跑到他衝到這個陶基然後彪罵了十多分鐘這個我不曉得在座的這個官員有沒有人在現場"},{"start":5345.219,"end":5367.477,"text":"他就是要求一定要嚴格把關那結果呢現在是邊境破防就是讓這一個非洲豬瘟進來了那現在當然就是要檢討就是怎麼樣可以去防堵那我給各位看一個網友他PO的這個PO文這個是2025年6月23號這個網友呢看起來是個炫耀文他說他從馬來西亞回台灣"},{"start":5369.739,"end":5392.47,"text":"那他直接一下飛機之後呢他跟這個寫請的保全表明說我不要豬瘟的檢查然後這個保全呢就直接讓他走旁邊出去了一點刁難都沒有他說他本來擔心會被阻擾所以呢還是先什麼手機開好這個防檢署的梭子結果完全沒有用到就順利的過關"},{"start":5394.251,"end":5421.843,"text":"那他还教大家说下一次从朱温疫区回台湾大家不用当冤大头排队检查首体行李而他引用的是113年12月防检署的副署长徐荣斌受访的时候他说非洲朱温首检站针对高风险国家旅客首检皮包没有强制旅客可以拒绝"},{"start":5422.703,"end":5437.892,"text":"那這個就是最大的漏洞啊你若從疫區回來的手檢包都不用這個認真檢查然後旅客說我不想被檢查然後就從旁邊出去然後你僱用的就是保全人員"},{"start":5439.053,"end":5464.289,"text":"你這樣子的一個執行的強度難怪現在非洲豬瘟從邊境就進來了嗎就是這樣子啊我要問各位是那這樣的一個狀況你現在還是這樣子嗎現在非洲豬瘟已經被發現了就跑到台灣來了你們的邊境還是這麼的鬆散嗎是不是你根本沒有法源沒有強制力"},{"start":5465.149,"end":5485.921,"text":"所以他的手檢包即使是從這個高風險疫區回來的只要旅客表明說我不想要被檢查你也沒有法源所以沒有強制力顧的還是只是保全而已是不是這樣報告委員我覺得這個的可能在現實狀況有些文字上或口語上會有扭曲但以現在來講他一定要經過手檢區"},{"start":5487.222,"end":5507.522,"text":"所以之前就是有鬆動嘛沒有百分之百嘛手剪區一定有分流分流就是說39個非洲疫區的國家他一定強制性馬來西亞是不是馬來西亞是非洲疫區的國家那他這一個人PO上去他就說他就是馬來西亞回來啊他就不用被手剪了因為他說我不要被手剪了"},{"start":5508.703,"end":5534.053,"text":"以現在目前來講我覺得這絕對不可能所以回溯這則新聞或者是這一個的報導是不是實在其實還有必要再追查看看有必要再追查你們自己去問你們的房檢署副署長之前這一位徐副署長其實一直都沒有鬆懈其實7年來都沒有鬆懈那這個是怎麼回事對我們這個是真真實實人家PO在網路上面講得非常的具體"},{"start":5535.033,"end":5551.631,"text":"網路常常有自由的言論那你們去查這是不是假消息因為這個已經不是一個人講了那這個就是之前你們根本沒有一個法源的情況底下你又沒有強制執行之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候我知道他非常的嚴格所以是百分之百"},{"start":5552.392,"end":5566.226,"text":"但你們後來就鬆掉了嘛鬆掉之後就變成是這樣的情況嘛就是尊重旅客自由意願他是高風險國家你還尊重他個人意願然後說不想檢查就走而且他引用的就是你們自己官員講的話"},{"start":5568.028,"end":5583.585,"text":"這個你們要好好檢討那你現在到底有沒有法源你是用什麼樣的一個強制性要求他百分之百到位行政命令嗎還是什麼你們之前的副署長是這樣講的喔沒有強制他是不是找不到法源還是怎麼回事我跟委員報告其實在機場裡面"},{"start":5584.281,"end":5599.781,"text":"我們的通關檢查是關稅所有的行李不管你是手提或者是托育行李全部都要海關經過但為了非洲豬瘟所以又增加了一個關卡就是在於海關檢查之前來一個手檢區那這個手檢區的目的是如果你經過這裡檢查"},{"start":5601.343,"end":5621.602,"text":"有一億或者是豬肉的產品你馬上棄置那這個不會受罰但是如果你到了海關那裡檢查那百分之百一定受罰所以原來的用意上是讓所有的遊客是等於double check你自己再確認看看那如果你有違規的產品那就利用這個時候趕快把它丟棄"},{"start":5623.063,"end":5640.214,"text":"對 那至於說法院那因為我們的作為都是叫做行政作為那假設需要加強它的法規的一個力度我覺得這個部分我們都事實可以做研討但是在機場的檢驗事實上確實這個它有一定的法規好 那我現在就正式問你"},{"start":5641.295,"end":5658.482,"text":"在现在你也没有一个很明确的法源情况底下如果有游客是从高风险区域回来然后你要检查他的手检包他挑战你说你没有法源就是我可以拒绝我拒绝你检查我的手检包可以或不可以"},{"start":5659.402,"end":5674.995,"text":"以目前來講我們都行政勸導希望你能夠通過假設他執意要過到了海關的檢查被檢出對不起就是20萬我們就開立20萬我知道但是他如果很僥倖海關也不會百分之百檢查"},{"start":5676.584,"end":5695.126,"text":"他就僥倖通關了所以你的意思就是說我們現在在前面的這一個手減包的部分是真的沒有法源也沒有辦法百分之百強制嗎報告委員我們現在目前的運作是假設這一個遊客他拒絕那可能我們就通知末端的海關對這個人要加強"},{"start":5696.067,"end":5717.126,"text":"我知道 所以你現在告訴我是說他是真的沒有法源你們這個副署長也沒有講錯是行政 我們現在都是行政措施所以沒有辦法到非常強制性的那我現在就問你怎麼樣可以做到非常強制性的高風險的民眾回來這個手檢包要百分之百接受檢驗要怎麼樣可以做到"},{"start":5717.586,"end":5732.805,"text":"如果我們修法相對我們要有正式的人力投入到裡面去所以你們做不到我們現在完全沒有對 沒有多餘的人力去做那蘇貞昌時代你們是怎麼做到的就是由這個就是由這個守檢區是那你們那時候會讓遊客是可以說我拒絕嗎"},{"start":5735.182,"end":5752.574,"text":"如果遇到拒絕的 你們當時是怎麼執行的我剛剛跟委員報告絕多數的遊客都會配合著遇到這種少數要挑戰你公權力的我們就當下都會通知海關的部分針對這個遊客特別關注"},{"start":5753.214,"end":5773.343,"text":"到海關的時候就要打開這個海關我問一下海關有沒有做到我們財政部的這個關務署這個雙重把關如果他前面他執意現在沒有法源可以要求他強制就是去掃他的手提包到了你的海關他通知你海關就可以百分之百可以攔下來"},{"start":5773.923,"end":5786.727,"text":"是報告委員就是剛才這邊講的就是手提行李的部分在房檢署這邊是有房檢署這邊去做手檢那有關拖運行李的部分在他上這個行李轉盤之前絕對百分之百海關這邊S光檢驗然後如果他有異常的話我們會助檢"},{"start":5794.509,"end":5823.147,"text":"那住检旅客领了行李要通过我们的检查台之前我们就会再过一次S光复检然后开箱查验那刚才房检署这边提到说如果有拒绝手检的他们假如有通知假如有通知海关的话海关绝对会去加强然后开箱查验那之前你们有收到几件是房检署通知你们他手检拒检然后你们来检查他的手检的有几件"},{"start":5824.609,"end":5845.826,"text":"這個部分可能我現在沒有資料我們之後再提供看看我們的機場這邊有沒有收到過這個房間署那房間署呢你們通報了幾件另外我在跟你們房間署通報幾件要求海關要不是這個應該不是在我們的"},{"start":5847.968,"end":5867.245,"text":"這個目標的數據 因為是我們這是當即立即有這樣的狀況就做處理那另外我跟委員報告就是說你們沒有登錄也不知道幾件還是從來根本就沒有通報過 沒有連線過這個是因為有加強那就通過 那還有一個我們還有一個把關的關卡是在於我們的這個檢疫權"},{"start":5869.236,"end":5884.85,"text":"檢疫權我知道檢疫權都是在跟海關同一個層級所以現在現在防檢署告訴大家就是說的確你們的這個首檢站他沒有公權力可以要求百分之百這個旅客你一定要經過這個"},{"start":5886.852,"end":5908.057,"text":"你們的手檢站把包包打開沒有百分之百的強制按照你的說法就是這樣所以你是靠後面的檢疫權或者是你可能未來你再去通知海關要求他打開到目前為止你的確就是沒有一個法源依據要求他必須把皮包打開對不對現在聽起來就是這樣子啊"},{"start":5909.077,"end":5926.826,"text":"那如果這樣子的話他就是一個漏洞嘛那我要求防檢局你們要盡快把這個漏洞補起來嘛不是說過去是靠蘇貞昌院長因為他很嚴厲他很兇然後要求你們做到然後就趕快去做但是做了這件事情坦白講是沒有法源依據的"},{"start":5927.426,"end":5943.852,"text":"你們根本不知道他依據什麼來源所以你遇到一個挑戰你公權力的人呢你就沒轍了你真的沒轍委員我還是希望真的這個不能否定因為幾乎所有的都會經過這個首檢區也都會配合做檢討我知道我們現在在檢討漏洞"},{"start":5944.352,"end":5966.685,"text":"所以當你遇到這一種要挑戰你公權力他硬不給你手檢的時候坦白講你現在就是沒轍嘛你當時那個防檢署的副署長講的是沒有錯的嘛依法論法他就是找不到一個強而有力的法源說你就是要給我經過那這個你們趕快去補漏洞啊趕快看要修哪一個法令啊按照你的這個防疫的哪一個法"},{"start":5967.225,"end":5985.985,"text":"就是說因為他是從高風險地區來的你就必須強制的百分之百手減嘛你不能是靠後面最後海關啊海關號驗的也很多啊那你這個已經是高風險就應該是高強度的查驗啊你不允許讓人家去挑戰你的公權力嘛好不好好那你這個多久可以演繹出來因為這是盡快補破網不是"},{"start":5990.86,"end":6016.138,"text":"為什麼用保全就是在機場的其他的檢驗CIQS都有正式人力那沒有給我們正式人力在這個首檢區執行所以支持我們經費用保全的方式來執行這件事情那假設真的要落實納入到我們CIQS的整個的流程裡面那絕對是要正式的人力跟資金投入在這個裡面但以我目前來講是"},{"start":6018.72,"end":6042.265,"text":"是確實是要以有限有的編制上來處理這件事情我要你們把漏洞補起來無論是你要立法百分之百的補這個漏洞由房檢局來做或者是要求變成財政部的海關你必須做成是第二道防線你們一定要百分之百SOP的通報就你要挑戰我公權 我從海關擋你那你這個整個要建置起來啊"},{"start":6042.965,"end":6063.105,"text":"要不然你這個我看得很明顯它就是一個漏洞好不好這個漏洞一定要補起來才不會讓非洲豬人下一次繼續從這邊進來好不好要嚴格的執行 謝謝好 謝謝我又宣告一下我們到廖偉祥召委宣導結束之後休息十分鐘"},{"start":6071.462,"end":6098.224,"text":"好 接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢好 謝謝主席我還是要請杜署長還有那個國務署的副署長這個手剪包的查譯的地方剛剛你們這種答詢我會替你們捏把冷汗也會讓國人覺得你到底是在說什麼而且那個副署長有沒有講這句話"},{"start":6099.847,"end":6116.021,"text":"基本上現在電話查就馬上知道了 除了他退休了他退休在台灣你接到電話這個都可以馬上問的啊即便這一關是這個樣子這一關是這個樣子他可以拒絕 但是他真的走得出去嗎他走得出去嗎台灣的邊境查驗 路關的查驗有這麼鬆嗎也因為沒有反而依據"},{"start":6128.089,"end":6132.363,"text":"請你打開包包 你可以拒絕之後欸 他就沒事了嗎"},{"start":6134.09,"end":6163.152,"text":"有這件事嗎就對了 我覺得你回答得很軟的這樣我們就沒法完 我們的人就沒救我們就撥傳 怎樣就怎樣你硬要給我感覺沒有 你現場你問我問在座的報案官員 你剛剛聽到都市長我是知道你很累啦已經這幾天為了非洲豬的事情但是這種答詢的回應方式然後我也特別提供這樣的訊息給你還有人既然敢這件事情潑在臉書就是可以拒絕"},{"start":6164.454,"end":6180.538,"text":"你賴我如何怎麼可以這樣怎麼可以公然這樣挑戰然後現在委員來追尋你的時候你們的回應好像對啊就是這樣啊雖然我們有一個最好的關卡就是公務署對不對"},{"start":6184.417,"end":6212.242,"text":"但是對你防檢署來講防疫就是你們第一線啊防疫就是你已經站到海關的這個這個浪頭的時候你就是要有辦法處理啊你沒辦法處理我就是幫幫 不能再讓你再走到下個階段啊我就馬上通知公務所人到現場通知海關人到現場來啊我沒有 我沒有法令原理依據可以要求你開公務所的人能不能叫你開嘛我們可以馬上做啊你下一步就走不下去啊"},{"start":6214.335,"end":6230.773,"text":"你們怎麼沒有這個power可以講這種話今天是委員已經把人家臉書po的已經挑戰你們的公共權利的情況之下在國會殿堂在垂詢你的時候你怎麼可以回應到這麼樣的太軟了"},{"start":6237.229,"end":6248.356,"text":"這不對啦 這個所謂對的人來的時候實在是完全不一樣的處理的一種態度跟行動我坐在這裡 我覺得連部長也在緊張好像在教導國人 今天如果這樣的情況好像教導國人說對啊 就是可以拒絕啊你哪有 你引起什麼法律 你哪裡有強制力"},{"start":6267.458,"end":6293.064,"text":"國人在出境機場有這麼輕鬆嗎昨天在內政委員會還有我的委員同仁好像對內政部的初選首長講說我們的邊境查驗我們的機場管理的太嚴了啦有沒有 你可以馬上問馬上查內政委員會我記得就是有這件事情"},{"start":6300.482,"end":6327.125,"text":"對 然後台灣機場檢查太嚴格 程序太長但是今天在這個委員會感覺好像某類 不是這個樣子好像很輕鬆怎麼會有不同委員會 然後委員的槌尋差異對一個機場的把關差異這麼大那就是我們為政者回應的態度跟我們實際上的作為"},{"start":6335.499,"end":6358.806,"text":"農業部資料 114年對新的簡歷統計國外民眾攜帶肉製品 陽性率中國是13.1% 越南是8.8% 泰國4.2%這三國以陽性的比例最高的這三個國家其中中國的肉品對台灣簡直是叫做生化攻擊了這一場夾帶目前海關邊境有完整的攔截措施存在"},{"start":6360.202,"end":6384.957,"text":"目的指向就是大量這次的 我特別排這一個專案就是說大量的通過電商平台 通過網路直接在國外訂購肉製品直接輸台這個相關的報導也特別提到中華郵政處長中華郵政處長 請出席一下承接大量拼多多淘寶貨物台中郵取進口約50個貨櫃6萬多件高雄郵取進口約60個貨櫃9萬多件除了這兩個還有其他嗎"},{"start":6392.928,"end":6407.06,"text":"只有這兩個郵局還有其他 你可以補充資料嗎你的領執要翻好報告主席 目前只有從台中港跟高雄港進來就這兩個港嘛 對不對這兩個港 這樣數據正確嘛8月7日到現在 50個多貨櫃是在台中然後60個貨櫃是在高雄"},{"start":6417.329,"end":6438.809,"text":"兩個貨櫃加起來就十幾萬件 沒有錯吧是好 所以有郵政的局主管在透露 說近三個月來日夜加班 壓力非常重大然後大量的中國的貨櫃 相關有肉類的香腸還有豬肉月餅 半島會怕優先成為非洲 這個豬防疫的破口有沒有這件事情"},{"start":6440.493,"end":6459.308,"text":"報告委員那基本上這個從海運海運快遞進口的這些油包是以貨關進來是經過海運快遞通關那經過關路署以及防檢局的檢疫以後呢在通關一簽關以後才交給中華郵政來做這個遞送"},{"start":6461.664,"end":6470.909,"text":"是 所以意思是說我們中緯郵政基本上只要經過關路署 經過這個防疫署的這個檢疫完之後"},{"start":6472.166,"end":6498.09,"text":"S光機照過之後反正就是沒有所謂的違禁品中華郵政反正就只有就是寄送而已嘛接跟送而已嘛對不對是不是這樣所以相關的檢驗的把關就是在我們公務署跟房間署嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛跟你中華郵政沒有關係嘛所以你現在跟我講說這個郵政主管透露這三個月來日夜加班所以來自中國大量貨櫃有肉類香腸含豬肉月餅搬到會怕是假的"},{"start":6500.356,"end":6518.386,"text":"你要回應我是這個是假的中緒郵政沒有這個主管這主管是虛設的這主管是自己跑出來的這主管是虛擬的這個同仁的反應那基本上我們檢疫的部分的確是經過X光"},{"start":6519.471,"end":6546.081,"text":"以及這個防檢署那當然我們現在因為這個配合這個海運快遞進來我們的同仁全力把這個整個貨件經過清關以後交運給中華郵政做這個避送所以海運的內容的真實性我們我在這邊沒有辦法去做回應跟查證那我先請處長看下一個照片好不好你看一下"},{"start":6553.44,"end":6574.614,"text":"這個滿這個就是選TW收貨地址下單可享滿49免運這TW是指什麼意思台幣是台幣嘛是台幣那滿那個一個好像那個電線桿下面有兩條幹那個是什麼"},{"start":6582.269,"end":6608.65,"text":"這個我不清楚你不清楚嗎你就是不清楚你今天打我才問很多事情不太清楚滿49免運就是滿人民幣那個是講幣值的代號就是人民幣選TWTW不是指台幣是選台灣了收屋地址下單可享免人民幣49滿49人民幣免運了"},{"start":6611.653,"end":6637.101,"text":"這是針對台灣的消費者的一個廣告嘛是處長這樣清楚吧是清楚這樣清楚你看他賣什麼東西你可以簡單從左邊講一項從右邊講一項嗎右邊是這個水果跟水果類左邊是肉類製品是那我們先講右邊水果類這些可以銷入台灣嗎嗯"},{"start":6643.642,"end":6670.231,"text":"X光機照到這些有直接處理掉沒有辦法透過這個進口的這是沒辦法經過進口嘛對不對那你中委郵政如果有接受這樣的貨品然後直接寄到這個收件人那中委郵政要負起什麼責任因為他是整個是在包裝經過這個驗官 清官以後我們沒有辦法對內容物做查證"},{"start":6670.99,"end":6697.947,"text":"所以你們不曉得你們在送什麼東西嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛所以右邊就這樣了嘛那左邊也是這樣嘛是不是這樣這個是貨運承攬業他進來以後呢必須這個清楚標示產地然後經過這個海關時間的關係啦我們沒有辦法再講下去我只是要跟你提醒啦齁這個賴處長你先到旁邊一下好不好謝謝不好意思齁"},{"start":6699.028,"end":6719.049,"text":"所以你現在要否認我是說你們的郵政主管有在擔心搬運搬貨搬到怕搬到怕有非洲防疫的破口是假訊息就對了你要回答我是這樣嘛 是不是你記住喔 這現場都是有錄影錄音的喔要不要再肯定答問一下 不可能"},{"start":6722.152,"end":6749.844,"text":"這個整個辦運的這個工作 可不可能嘛 你就簡單答覆我一句話就好嘛但是內部的這整個檢疫內 我們的確是沒有參與這些檢疫我在委員會 我很少在委員官員但是我是希望官員在答覆過程裡面還是要秉於良心 秉於專業 秉於真的實際上可能的狀況要把事情講清楚 對不對 好那你現在講是沒有嘛 不可能發生啊所以這個郵政主管是假的啦 這是假訊息這是虛擬的 是不是這樣"},{"start":6751.584,"end":6764.853,"text":"我只是針對這個檢疫的工作他內容描述的檢疫的工作不是你在做啊你不需要打呼我檢疫的工作啊你中緯郵政是收跟送嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛檢疫工作後面那兩位嘛你請到旁邊"},{"start":6769.356,"end":6792.636,"text":"我最後一個啦來請教這個杜署長還有我們副署長昨天講是在28日已經是正式回應說要求經濟部 數碼部還有研究如果讓這個淘寶還有拼多多這個限期落地如果限期不落地不納入管制的話將要求電商這個平台下架現在中國的雙11促銷活動即將來臨然後去年的時候淘寶為了搶這個雙11的商機"},{"start":6794.958,"end":6815.207,"text":"就宣布於7-11門市和新竹物流合作擴大全台免運服務範圍只要下單選7-11門市取貨或通過宅配滿人民幣99元享免運到台然後包裹更可以直接全台368鄉鎮市區寄送偏鄉地區也能輕鬆取貨"},{"start":6824.869,"end":6852.928,"text":"這個是去年的事情你再回到上一頁這個是拼多多的只要選TW選台灣所有地址下單可享滿49的等於是人民幣可以免運滿200塊的台幣就可以免運了這個是什麼意思然後可以賣這些東西可以賣 左邊是肉類 右邊就是水果"},{"start":6854.54,"end":6882.137,"text":"署長怎麼看待這個事情這個事情要怎麼應應目前來講有很多是他的廣告那是在境外廣告那真正的要做到購買然後寄送的時候其實還是有在大的廠商是有一些的作為有些是你真的訂貨的時候你也進不來那有的是你刷卡的時候用台灣的這個信用卡"},{"start":6883.138,"end":6908.638,"text":"你也他也不會成交所以他是有後面是有一些的管制措施的所以這些商家他們在做無效廣告無聊廣告無益廣告你要不要等一下回桌的時候還是休息十分鐘馬上你打拼多多就是每天都有頻率之高誰的手機都可以看到而且這是專為台灣設計的滿200台幣滿49的人民幣你就免預"},{"start":6913.49,"end":6929.593,"text":"然後劈啪啪每天都有每天都有然後這些這些都是禁止進來台灣的不要講肉類喔連水果都是喔一直在廣告一直在廣告那院長講這樣什麼時候委員我再補充一下就是拼多多是一個新的一個媒體"},{"start":6930.474,"end":6949.34,"text":"那他用APP的方式在做他的行銷那這個部分在秘書長這邊召集的跨部會會議的時候也要求速發布要提出一個具體針對這些電商平台有些的不法的違法的或者是管理不良的這個部分要做一個處置"},{"start":6952.948,"end":6964.594,"text":"我知道那天院會的質詢 院長做的才是啦這邊都有很清楚嘛來不及啦 太晚了啦 反應不夠快啦雙11已經快到了"},{"start":6965.56,"end":6985.649,"text":"我希望我們可以加快這些基本上他就是公然違反我們台灣的相關的法令嘛對不對我們知道他在網路他在臉書他在平台一直持續不斷不斷的不斷的在播送在連結在擴大他的數據台灣的政府要有積極因應的相關的作為啊"},{"start":6988.238,"end":7015.467,"text":"剛剛你講的進行屏蔽嘛對不對只有進行屏蔽就夠了嗎還有可以做到什麼程度拒絕怎麼拒絕拒絕就是你從台灣下單在那邊如果有自主管理跟我們電商平台合作是拒絕下單但拼多多是一個新的一個電商平台那所以說現在可能要整個的資訊的一個屏蔽所以這個部分找那個速發部在做"},{"start":7018.3,"end":7046.092,"text":"相關的一個策略我覺得這做屏蔽 還有你講的拒絕真的是不夠力你們要不要最快的速度是因為時間關係好不好請你 請農業部嘛還有經濟部 還有這個 樹花部衛福部應該也要一起來啦真的 這已經離譜了這不是這幾天的事情這是一大陣子的嘛 對不對"},{"start":7047.423,"end":7074.4,"text":"是不是請市部長也可以來召集看來如何來應用為了國人的健康為了我們台灣的養豬產業為了我們的豬籠為了所有的一系列這樣生態的這樣的一個台灣的很多的一個必須要怎麼講我看到這些數據每天在這樣跑在這樣跑在這樣跑那其實我真的看得很汗顏我也覺得很擔憂台灣未來的處境真的"},{"start":7075.981,"end":7099.978,"text":"就像我剛剛開場白的一直帶進來一直帶進來一直有這樣被我們阻絕在外的這些疑似還是這些弱品基本上就好像在做生化攻擊的道理一樣所以全員動起來一個星期內好不好提出相關的因應作為不能只有屏蔽不能只有拒絕而已的這些措施好不好 謝謝好 我們謝謝劉建國委員的資訊"},{"start":7103.772,"end":7124.065,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席 謝謝趙偉那請 先請我們衛福部長 石部長那請部長"},{"start":7128.479,"end":7152.096,"text":"廖委員長部長好 我想要延續一下最近大家看到我們都很擔心這個兒科啊 急重症啊或是一些這個相關的急重男寒科別的醫師人員流失很嚴重所以想要請問一下部長像兒科 急重症及部分科別的醫師或醫事人員流失問題嚴重那為了要解決這個出走的問題"},{"start":7153.177,"end":7181.602,"text":"想要請問一下有關醫院醫師加班免稅的部分這個今年底有沒有機會達成那可以讓這個醫院醫師明年在報稅的時候就可以試用那同樣的有關於健保給付的部分請問部長是不是能夠加快以及加大力道檢討醫療服務的給付的部分那我也想要請問這兩個部分目前的已有規劃期程跟方向"},{"start":7182.722,"end":7208.749,"text":"跟委員報第一個是有關於我們醫師加班因為醫師的工時確實是比較長那麼特別是有一些病人在假日或夜間都需要服務那根據所得稅法那麼一般而言的加班費是可以免稅那所以我們現在在為醫師爭取那麼特別是希望修訂我們的這個健保的特約管理辦法裡面那麼讓他明定"},{"start":7209.249,"end":7237.926,"text":"那麼關於按照這個所得稅法規定的加班的這個免稅的這個標準就是上限標準那另外呢 如何的這個計算我們已經幾次跟這個相關的這個主管機關包含公立醫院的主管機關所以博長 換言之你是很支持這個方向啦是是是 謝謝 謝謝委員關心對 那我只是想問說那這個期程的部分然後另外一個就是有關於剛剛所謂的這個檢討醫療服務給付的部分"},{"start":7238.226,"end":7264.193,"text":"那麼加班稅免稅我們是希望在年底前把它完成適用於明年報稅的時候適用明年報稅太好了對對對這個我們來努力那至於在這個急重症的給付的部分我們今年在健保的總額裡面已經先調整了那麼主要是以加護病房跟急診這邊事先優先調整那麼另外明年的部分我們已經在兒科的部分"},{"start":7264.713,"end":7283.861,"text":"那麼也匡列了大概0到6歲的兒童的預算匡列249億那我們會優先調整這個兒童的住院的給付都會把它拉高對部長我相信你很專業在這個部分畢竟你一路以來這個部分是你專業領域但是我們可以看到"},{"start":7285.361,"end":7304.332,"text":"雖然這段時間以來你很努力的去改善可是看起來並沒有阻止也沒有真的很明顯的成效所以我想要說的事情是這個部分是不是可以加大和加快這個力道不然我們都很擔心連醫療中心這個相關的重要的科別都崩潰是 會的會的"},{"start":7305.172,"end":7327.567,"text":"因為我們這兩年的 今年的預算也增加明年的話又是這個以5.5的成長所以我們會連著持續的一直去調整關於在急重症的支付那同時也會搭配醫院評鑑制度的改革來強化這個人才的羅致那另外還有健康台灣深耕計畫那麼也謝謝委員的支持 今年"},{"start":7328.207,"end":7343.991,"text":"已經有近60億那明年會擴大到100億的預算我們也編載預算書那也都是在改善醫護人員的這個工作條件是 那部長再麻煩您把目前有的這個相關的報告以及進度交給本席辦公室一份好嗎好 沒問題 謝謝那再來我要請這個關務署長處長你好"},{"start":7357.353,"end":7374.629,"text":"署長好基本上這整件事件從流程來看今天排這個其實包含農業部長也說過去本土沒有案例所以一定是從境外來那外界關注這個境外的包裹是不是變成防疫的破口也是一個問題所以"},{"start":7376.846,"end":7399.488,"text":"今天要特別的討論說這所謂的邊境破口到底在哪裡那麼根據新聞報導 關務署也表示說海關針對於民眾以海運快遞空運快遞或者是郵包進口的貨品均全面的X光移檢那也從10月24號開始說提高人工開箱的查驗比率那因此想要問署長"},{"start":7400.569,"end":7419.395,"text":"有關於這個關務署強調進口郵包進口快遞100%的X框查驗聽起來是個有效的方式但是為什麼還有媒體會報導說有第一線的物流人士表示肉製品大量以包裹或夾櫃的方式流入這是空穴來風呢還是是說這個部分真的有一些漏洞"},{"start":7421.244,"end":7449.914,"text":"跟委員報告就如同剛委員所提的我們不管是旅客行李或者是這個郵包或者是快遞貨物那我們是百分之百X光檢查那如果有影像有異常的話就會人工開箱查驗那所以我們其實一直都是做這樣子一個強化那現在的話我們更是會提高我們的人工的一個查驗比"},{"start":7450.054,"end":7475.397,"text":"是 因為署長我們大概推估一下疫情爆發後10月24號到26號這三天其實各官的人工開箱查驗件數大概是4000件 超過4000件那查獲違規豬肉製品大概4件 共6.7公斤那用這個比例來算大概是千分之一所以大概人工去檢查後可能比純木式的X光還要來精準許多"},{"start":7476.238,"end":7497.256,"text":"所以我們就保守估計如果用X光的這個疏漏率假設掃過去沒有辦法馬上找到有問題的話這個比率假設是人工的一半好了就是用0.5的話那麼如果照2024年的台灣進口包裹總數量是5847萬件來算可能也有8萬件的沒有查到的漏網之餘"},{"start":7498.297,"end":7510.074,"text":"所以因為我當然可以理解說不可能每一個包裹都用人工檢查啦這是不可能的事情但是這樣子的數量我想要請問有沒有去檢討或是什麼更有效的方式來防堵這個漏洞"},{"start":7511.391,"end":7531.384,"text":"報告委員就是說當然我們今天因為海關的人力的問題所以我們一定會強化我們運用相關的這個高科技包括剛才提到的S光還有另外就是我們跟房檢署這邊房檢署他有這個檢疫犬那也會請這個房檢署的檢疫犬隊可以"},{"start":7531.764,"end":7560.645,"text":"加強這個一個繡紋那另外就是說我們增加我們的一個開箱的比率還有就是也會提高我們低線官員他在辨識這個X光影像的一個專業的知能好我想要提出來就是用這個數據來看這可能是有漏網之語是非常的多你們可能要去想辦法精進相關的相關的流程上有沒有辦法更嚴格在既有的資源之下還有或是科技的應用之下"},{"start":7561.365,"end":7582.102,"text":"那另外呢 這個你們也有備詢的時候表示油包 茶貨 肉製品大概是1000件那淡井開發9件 這比例非常的低 請問原因是什麼那也想要請問 好 您先說原因是什麼先跟委員報告 就是有關我們油包 海關 茶貨那我們是移給防檢署這邊來做採訪所以有關採訪的部分是防檢署這邊的一個權管"},{"start":7589.068,"end":7593.155,"text":"好 那請相關的房間署來回答報告委員"},{"start":7599.417,"end":7622.41,"text":"那我們大概都移送採訪因為在這個過程之中很多數是因為冒名或者是不知情那所以說沒有辦法追溯所以這也是一個很大的原因嘛一前件有開罰九件其實是非常的低千分之九那主要原因就是你說可能冒名或者是雙方不知道是誰或是第一次非故意嘛"},{"start":7622.91,"end":7647.144,"text":"所以現在回頭來看首次非故意免罰是不是就可能變成是一個有心人可以鑽的漏洞是嘛我們也在檢討你也說是嘛對不對我們現在也在檢討但這回回到一個問題就是假設A跟B那A如果對B有意見故意陷害我記得一百件所以這個東西是一個要檢討的東西所以我也可以理解因為如果有人"},{"start":7647.924,"end":7658.86,"text":"刻意被陷害的話所以這個部分是想要問說那可不可以請電商平台也負起相關的責任比如說主動勸阻啦或是針對違規的商家進行處罰"},{"start":7660,"end":7680.736,"text":"有 目前我們的電商平台所以您支持這個方向 對我說明一下就是說這個這幾年我們一直在努力跟電商平台就是它要有一些的自主的管理的一個機制上然後再加上配合我們做一些的相關的一個宣導所以其實從我們開發的比例我講的是電商是電商的這個部分那它已經降低了這個財閥數了 已經"},{"start":7683.819,"end":7700.053,"text":"有那個效果出來嗎你說因為跟他們溝通完之後你們這個數量是沒有 採取種種的措施對 這數量是有下降可是可能顯然還不夠嘛1000件裡面只有9件開罰不是 這兩件事情對 我的意思是說這個部分因為你剛剛說你擔心他被陷害"},{"start":7701.034,"end":7719.665,"text":"然後或者是你這個制度上你擔心AB互相不認識那這個源頭是不是有可能跟電商平台要負起相關的責任有關所以我們剛剛講的是這個你說因為你跟他們溝通完有下降有下降那這個部分是不是還可以有空間去更精進的作為對 更精進的作為那另外整個"},{"start":7722.361,"end":7745.241,"text":"現在目前已經有更改到實名制 關務署已經更改到實名制了所以他要雙證件這樣就避免了很多假冒的一個行為所以現在這段的時間 事實上這個違規的行為也降低了比率也降低了 比率降低多少就是成效如何"},{"start":7751.584,"end":7763.029,"text":"好沒關係顯然你們現在沒有明確的數字啊查完之後給本席辦公室好不好好那我想要因為時間有限我繼續問一下也根據審計部的資料我可能這個部分要請衛福部長還有我們管務署長請部長"},{"start":7767.935,"end":7783.88,"text":"根據審計部的資料其實也有許多比如說外國地區其他地區的比如大陸地區其他國家食品用個人的這個自用名義輸入雖然沒有申請邊境查驗但卻實際可能作為販售的用途"},{"start":7784.62,"end":7801.196,"text":"像2023年有超過70萬人用這個方式進口食品而且重複進口的紀錄也高達數百次甚至每日的進口量也遠超過每日個人的合理攝取量所以有些時候也很難解釋說是自用"},{"start":7802.137,"end":7821.828,"text":"比如說113年度申請這個免查驗輸入食品的相次前10名每人進口的這個報單數介於58分到3002分也逐漸這樣子是不是沒有有效的邊境控制的機制比如說若這一類的食品"},{"start":7822.688,"end":7840.802,"text":"如果流入市面販售再要透過地方去後端市場去稽查基本上是事倍功半也很難回溯進貨的來源也可能造成民眾很多無謂的困擾所以目前請問部長對於這個個人民意輸入制度的漏洞"},{"start":7841.582,"end":7862.048,"text":"食藥署或是署長有沒有辦法沿你要增設或者是你們有沒有什麼相關的經濟措施比如說增設進口頻率上限個人總量管制的制度或者是說有相關跟關務署跟食藥署建構一個類似通報系統比如說高頻輸入者他可能是一個重點稽查的名單請問這部分有沒有"},{"start":7863.048,"end":7885.599,"text":"跟委員報告確實現在呢個人輸入自用的部分是有6公斤以下1000美元以下這個是免這個食品這個申請輸入的規定但是他還是要堅守在邊關需要有這個檢查還是不能夠有這個假查這個違規的"},{"start":7887.72,"end":7908.776,"text":"物品所以這個還是在邊境還是需要查驗的至於剛剛提到確實如果說我們能夠進行勾擊對一些高頻率因為為了這樣去這個限縮所有的國人他的自用的當然所以我說你可能要用勾擊的方式用勾擊的方式更精準的去查驗對這個我們來研究看看"},{"start":7912.813,"end":7934.243,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢這部分我們在之前非洲豬瘟之前我們就發現這樣子極度異常的其實這樣子的規定是在108年4月份我們公告隔年109年7月我們就覺得有異狀所以我們你把上面的修正的每日以及總額一天的1000美金等的修改"},{"start":7935.744,"end":7953.586,"text":"經過爭取意見之後對 我們那時候的規定是希望能修改徵求有197個意見就一個意見贊成所有都反對所以在當時之前的研議之下就稍微延緩我想這一次我們是一個很好的契機重新去檢討跟勾擊那個嚴重"},{"start":7954.767,"end":7977.353,"text":"不合常理之下的一個個人輸入實際上就是後市場端我們稽查有很多的臨時在銷售裡面都是以個人名義進來實際上銷售之時我想也有一些關稅的問題也有一些不符合個人使用的一些我們當初的美意所在我們會積極的修正 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":7978.553,"end":7991.879,"text":"那再去這個再麻煩精進研議那也給北市辦公室一個你們最後的結論好因為這是兩個不同的方向好那這個在最後一條我要請請這個請回座請經濟部請經濟部好"},{"start":8003.018,"end":8014.948,"text":"我想要請問一下因為根據這個商業刊物的統計過去10年台灣的小型包裹進口量從1582萬件成長到5847萬件增幅高達270%那同期的這個進口的包裹金額也從221億增長到656億累積增幅也將近快200%"},{"start":8029.521,"end":8051.779,"text":"那換句話說呢其實台灣民眾向海外購買產品可能已經成為一個不可逆的趨勢所以就我所知目前各大平台尤其是大陸的各大平台還沒有在台灣落地所以因此這一次的這個非洲豬瘟進口製品問題卓院長表示希望限期讓這些平台在台灣落地以便行政管理跟救責對嗎"},{"start":8054.46,"end":8068.565,"text":"是的 卓院長在前天在立法院會有這樣表示那跟委員補充那個電商平台的主管是數位部是不是請 經濟部跟速發部一起來好了因為剛剛在跟您講一些數據 速發部也一起"},{"start":8084.051,"end":8105.433,"text":"所以基本上卓源廠的立場是說希望這些平台盡快落地可是其實我製作的一些時間表包含2008年這個淘寶用新加坡公司名義在台設立分公司那2015年被投審會要求撤資這個2018年淘寶在台設立港資跟英資的子公司分別營運"},{"start":8106.374,"end":8120.485,"text":"那這個總站的廣告跟台灣站的電商平台業務那2020年呢淘寶台灣也被經濟部稱這個落地台灣以為兩岸條例這就是為什麼剛剛要請經濟部來那限期半年內撤資否則連續重罰廢止許可"},{"start":8122.927,"end":8148.033,"text":"那淘寶台灣站只好宣布立刻關閉那2024年底呢港商淘寶台灣分公司投放雙11的優惠廣告那經濟部也稱說違反營業登記項目違法經營電商業務重罰120萬限半年內撤資否則繼續重罰那就在前幾天這個卓院長表示限期讓他們來落地設立公司負責否則要強制下架"},{"start":8148.573,"end":8176.044,"text":"那我要說的事情這個究竟他們要不要落地願不願意落地這是他們不願意還是我們在法規上或者在輔導上有問題那現在等到發生事情了才要特別說要找他來負責要叫他趕快落地這樣感覺是很相互矛盾會讓人家覺得說政策好像是像這個初一十五不一樣想要請問具體要怎麼幫助他們相關的落地計劃"},{"start":8179.097,"end":8194.413,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢其實關於這部分來講的話我想說落地的部分其實當然基本上還是要配合這個因為任何的不管是大陸或者是世界各國要落地的話當然就要配合我們投審會的相關機制"},{"start":8195.534,"end":8215.723,"text":"當然對我們的一些國內電商的一些衝擊我們都會一起來評估所以我想問說如果沒有順利落地的話那口中院長口中強制下架是什麼樣的措施我大概講一下這其實在重點落不落地其實重點在於這個管理因為今天這個非洲豬瘟的事情真的要去做處理來做一個管理所以我們有想到幾個管理的方式"},{"start":8217.003,"end":8240.723,"text":"例如說淘寶這部分來講的話我們不管是境內境外我們會積極跟淘寶聯繫像現在目前你看那個淘寶其實有做一些措施你看它的那個封面裡面已經有配合那個農業部的那個這是一部分嘛對那你們是不是還有可能用什麼其他技術手段譬如說禁止訪問沒有這個許可的電商平台"},{"start":8242.464,"end":8269.525,"text":"有幾個啦第一個就是標示嘛那淘寶的部分來講的話他會特別如果是從台灣來的這些IP有沒有然後你要IP去封他台灣來了IP就不會去看看到那個肉品因為對他來講境外來講這些肉品可能可以賣到其他國家但是我們國家對於非洲基金這個非常關心所以他們現在目前有這個措施就是說但除非你是跳到別的外面去對那他不就透過VPN就一樣嗎"},{"start":8271.83,"end":8296.362,"text":"但是這部分跳過去回來就是還是就是今天這是一連串的問題但是我盡量可以做的就是這部分那另外我們也思考另外一個可以管理的方式就是我們有看到那個廣告的部分其實還是很重要我們怎麼去透過所以我們接下來會找這些平台因為他們很多都會在Meta上面去PO一些廣告我們接下來會去找他們來去如何去讓這一類的廣告能夠盡量減少"},{"start":8298.683,"end":8318.124,"text":"所以基本上同樣邏輯啦不只是大陸的這個拼多多京東抖音購物可能還有韓國的庫蓬還有日本的美錄可力然後美國亞馬遜沃爾瑪東南亞的Lazada這些通通都是國外的平台到目前也都沒有落地喔所以是用同樣的就是方式去跟他們談對嗎同樣的標準"},{"start":8320.706,"end":8347.621,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實庫蓬這部分他已經落地所以庫蓬這邊來講的話我們有落地像這麼大的一個韓國的電商其實我們也會積極的查核我剛還有講到好幾個不同的好幾個的話我們如果有如果現在短期間還沒有落地的話我們盡量就會跟他們去做溝通那如果有一些狀況那Amazon倒是比較好一點因為Amazon他要上架的時候他必須要有品牌我們也有跟他"},{"start":8348.081,"end":8375.678,"text":"在做因為他有全球開店平台的一些活動那我們跟他講那他其實要上架不是隨隨便便就可以上架的對這部分的尺度喔還有相關的技術規範喔這個可能要拿捏而且要盡速的跟他們溝通好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝趙偉好謝謝廖趙偉那委員會重新公告齁我們剛剛宣布是十點半啊現在呃這個待林書文委員吹醒完之後我們再休息十分鐘齁抱歉來請林書文委員"},{"start":8379.52,"end":8383.639,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是再請我們部長來 請施部長"},{"start":8389.171,"end":8412.478,"text":"林委員好部長我再接續剛才廖委員的這個質詢就省紀部在今年的非洲豬瘟事件發生以前7月29號就發布了這個總決算的審核報告那這裡面指出這個食藥署大家都知道邊境抱怨的批次從76萬餘批比這個當初109年69萬餘批成長了將近一成"},{"start":8418.3,"end":8424.025,"text":"在這種狀況裡面他們覺得說中國大陸的貨品除了經濟部公告准許輸入和專案核准以外不得輸入的狀況但是坊間非常多的中國大陸產製的麻辣花生螺絲粉等非屬核准輸入產品在國內流通販售的情勢衍生了食安的疑慮"},{"start":8442.841,"end":8453.727,"text":"這個是審計部的這一個調查報告裡面寫的審核報告裡面寫的然後呢你們他再查了一下就說你們這個去年112年還有113年兩年之間喔他們"},{"start":8458.67,"end":8462.012,"text":"看了一下地方政府的稽查業者2萬餘次查獲的違規只有71案其中都是在夜市商行實體通路查獲網路平台只有一案在這種狀況裡面審計部認為說對國內的衛生安全有很大的疑慮然後講到你們自己剛剛講的108年你們自己開放了自己去開放了"},{"start":8487.454,"end":8513.493,"text":"這個1000美金以下重量6公斤以下這個免申請這個查驗這個是你們自己開放的在這種狀況裡面他就剛才廖委員質詢也有講到所以這個審計部這一年過去113年有70幾萬個人申請我免查驗然後最離譜的是第一名的人那一個人一年申請了3002次"},{"start":8515.751,"end":8539.048,"text":"然後他每天一年365天一共有294天294天天天都申報這個進口免查驗的這一些化整為零的輸入然後大家當初都是知道說這同意自用的話免查驗可是天天輸入一年輸入294天一共輸入了3002批次化整為零"},{"start":8545.842,"end":8571.742,"text":"違規的拿去哪裡使用了還自用了耶而你們自己都知道109年你就發現這有問題了可是你們就是沒有辦法改而且不願意改你就說大家都反對就不改了那今年呢我們就看到深五環的第一環邊境主角就在這裡大家認為說這裡破口跟著貨櫃進來違規拿去平台賣有沒有可能"},{"start":8572.743,"end":8595.41,"text":"當然部長你講的更好笑這些都免查驗了你說還在查驗他哪裡查驗跟委員說明這確實是有一些國人自用的需求沒有啦我問你是這些都用免查驗的你剛才還可以回答委員說他們還是有查驗不是查驗啦應該是這樣子講他在邊境他還是郵包還是要驗還是會被抽驗啦"},{"start":8595.99,"end":8620.481,"text":"抽驗嘛 所以偶爾抽一下但是我現在再問你喔 嚴肅的問你喔申請免查驗的1000美金以下的還有這個6公斤以下的會抽驗嗎 海關有抽驗嗎有抽驗嗎 你剛才講你剛才回答委員說還是有查驗現在我問你 你說會抽驗到底有沒有真的有抽驗"},{"start":8621.974,"end":8628.157,"text":"沒有嘛沒有嘛 完全沒有把關長驅直入可是剛才第一名那個其實我們在9月10號我現在告訴你就是說就是沒有我們要講這個個案啦 我在講因為你們開放的108年這個門就是你開的"},{"start":8643.746,"end":8660.572,"text":"而開了以後完全連抽菸都沒有長驅直入而且大家化整為零而且以同意自用為名就違規的拿去販賣其實商業販售你開放了但你要有管理的配套"},{"start":8661.272,"end":8680.271,"text":"你開放了 那你的管理配套在哪裡你的後市場查驗有嗎難怪大家都問我 大家都問立委夜市大家都看得到更不要講網路平台所以更不要講阻絕於邊境這都是你們開放的 沒錯 你們開放的"},{"start":8682.933,"end":8697.239,"text":"在這種狀況 審計部的報告我們可以得知到幾個重點第一個 你們事實上開放以後流入了台灣的市面然後事實上地方政府跟你們去做的稽查強度則為不足道實體通路兩年查獲71件 網路查獲1件第二個 我們都看到個人名義自用 其實是騙人的嘛"},{"start":8711.866,"end":8741.118,"text":"第三你們的稽查事實上是沒有在講網路販售的這個平台了網路販售除非從中國郵寄但是也有從台灣出貨的簡體字的一大堆那網路販售他怎麼到台灣的賣家然後可以直接賣出去他販賣地點可能從雲林寄出來的可能從高雄寄出來的他就是有貨品直接在這個賣家手上"},{"start":8742.199,"end":8766.385,"text":"然後呢 你們去查了一件兩年只查到一件然後你們回答這個審計部然後就說我們會加強查 稽查然後呢 沒了 然後就沒了請問這個部長 署長我4月就質詢了部長那時候你還沒有上任當部長但在今年的4月我就質詢過署長了"},{"start":8768.325,"end":8795.004,"text":"我們在講說 我現在回到網路平台這件事違法輸入的業者和產品的品項是不是在實體通路和網路平台都消失了然後還是說這些業者避避風頭 立委質詢了然後政府管了一下子了 先下架但事過境天 一個月以後又開始賣了賣得下下叫 還在賣"},{"start":8796.243,"end":8814.96,"text":"你看昨天的昨天的截圖還在賣還在賣隨便隨便都有請問一下這些有沒有申請輸入查驗他怎麼進來的簡體制欸全部都簡體制欸有沒有輸入許可有沒有申請查驗"},{"start":8819.814,"end":8845.937,"text":"連審計單位都要跟你講這有食安的疑慮耶7月29到現在發現有國安的疑慮因為豬瘟沒有豬瘟也有食安的疑慮耶請問一下審計部要求食藥署研議強化網路販售食品的稽查作為在哪裡署長你可以告訴我保證網路平台上現在去上網去看的都有申請輸入查驗的嗎"},{"start":8847.666,"end":8868.2,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下因為委員4月份提醒之後我們非常認真的去做因為我目前沒有電子商務法所以呢我們其實已經提出了修法為食品安全衛生法法條現在躺在哪裡第三條我其實對啦法條現在躺在哪裡你說要修法從4月講到現在對我們持續在有些"},{"start":8868.8,"end":8879.42,"text":"半年了對 我們會持續把這個速度再加快現在法在哪裡 到行政院了沒目前還沒有出衛福部了沒沒有 半年了我們繼續加緊速度"},{"start":8880.495,"end":8900.75,"text":"第一個部分剛才如委員所說的如何對於平台業者販賣業者課予所謂的行政義務的 電商平台的義務的這是第一個部分 第二個部分是他要強制你不要跟我講修法的內容 我知道啦但是我現在告訴你 在修法以前人家就是這樣進來的今天國安破口 防疫的破口 難道這裡不可能嗎"},{"start":8903.011,"end":8925.118,"text":"現在網路上如果講食安平台上販賣的都有申請查驗嗎你不知道 你不知道事實上是沒有啦的確是沒有現在我再講中央主管機關是屬於安全的這個主責機關你開放了 我再講你108年的開放開放了免申請查驗卻沒有濫用這個制度的把關機制"},{"start":8926.854,"end":8954.469,"text":"你說你要限縮再限縮美金大概要多少要再限縮公斤重量要再限縮這樣就好了嗎你們的配套會是什麼你們的配套會是什麼你們給人家開了一個門然後東西都進來你沒有管理的辦法也沒有人在管理這像話嗎不然你開那個門說有需要配套也要有啊配套是什麼"},{"start":8955.58,"end":8974.412,"text":"你現在降低提高了門檻了那還是要有配套啊我們其實特別是針對用抱怨勾擊的方式對異常的我們會積極的去查核這邊謝謝委員的提醒電商平台修法義務草案我現在在講說你們個人自用免查驗的"},{"start":8976.758,"end":9005.894,"text":"其實我還不好意思講除了從海關進來的更多的是大家跑單幫的啦跑單幫小三通我每天去廈門再進來廈門進來一天可以跑五次跑十次化整為零啦個人攜帶的啦對不對怎麼會大家都看得到夜市全部滿街都是中國的食品啊肉製品啊"},{"start":9007.574,"end":9036.279,"text":"在台灣網路平台販賣的簡體製的很多啦所以我們在講食安五環在這裡食藥署你們開了門然後兩手一攤毫無作為這樣的食安防線誰能夠放心呢所以你說要有配套要查緝你也對我們講說要查緝你也對審計部說要查緝不要讓查緝兩個字成為笑話也不要讓食安防線成為笑話"},{"start":9038.53,"end":9067.051,"text":"保定你前幾天接受媒體採訪部長9月1號你接任以來你說食安的壓力最大你一再的告誡同仁食安事件沒有妥協的空間從今天各項的討論和資料可以看到你們是要屬管理食安進步的空間還很大我們認為你必須要展開結構性的改革不要再以事件處理的方式來面對"},{"start":9068.564,"end":9072.903,"text":"你不要每次都用事件處理去取代制度上的修正"},{"start":9074.031,"end":9100.138,"text":"這是連你們組織內包括法律法規的管制面已經是嚴重的制度的缺口了而署長承諾我們要修法半年前半年後還躺在你們衛福部還躺在食藥署連出你們衛福部都沒有如果這是最重要的事情很緊急的事情為什麼拖半年還沒到行政院還沒到立法院來"},{"start":9101.559,"end":9115.181,"text":"所以這種牛布化是管理的方式嗎每天都這樣清清菜菜給省紀部運營的然後到這裡答詢立委 蓄意委儀署長站在台上撐過十分鐘就交差了"},{"start":9116.517,"end":9138.942,"text":"這樣能夠讓人民感受到政府守護食安的決心和行動力嗎所以台灣的食品安全就是這樣一次又一次信心垮掉了所以我們要重新的建立起這個信心你必須走向制度化專業化而不是一次又一次的只是危機處理應變而不是只是事件處理應變"},{"start":9140.714,"end":9159.714,"text":"保證是不是什麼時候什麼時候可以給我們制度上的改變保證這個我們一個月提出檢討已經檢討半年了啦一個月內我們會把它再重新再檢討它的漏洞那該提出的修法年底前我們都會提出來"},{"start":9160.174,"end":9178.282,"text":"年底前喔 年底剩下多久 兩個月喔 好 ok食藥署進步的空間很大 署長 謝謝謝謝委員 我們第一個就把我們的相關的訊息給各位委員其實能夠有看到 那修法的內涵內容其實都請各位委員多多就教 謝謝"},{"start":9180.899,"end":9208.917,"text":"好啦 我們要休息了 抱歉休息十分鐘 抱歉我還是要提醒部長和署長剛剛真的是時間不夠林委員的資料跟我那個資料都很清楚那個是針對台灣的那是高科民運 那是針對台灣的我實在沒時間講 那個署長剛剛那個署長他怎麼會你怎麼不覺得你們郵政的主管講的那些壓力是普遍性的壓力不是好 謝謝休息十分鐘"},{"start":9224.36,"end":9227.056,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9251.954,"end":9258.05,"text":"我今天很早上"},{"start":9947.509,"end":9974.286,"text":"好 休息時間到 請各位歡迎回座我們要繼續來進行詢問接下來請黃秀安黃委員黃昭偉來好 請回座好不好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝主席我們首先先請石部長來 請部長"},{"start":9979.984,"end":10004.909,"text":"好 委員好 部長好部長我相信你如果曾經出國要回國的時候這個要進到國內那會有那個檢疫的那個卡嗎如果你是 紅卡綠卡對 紅卡跟綠卡那我今天早上也聽到部長有特別提到就是說未來進來之後這個進到國內全部一律都要檢查是不是這樣子"},{"start":10006.409,"end":10019.413,"text":"剛剛我們一直在確認這件事情那個可能比較詳細的細節是不是可以請關務署說明是 好不是 那個是農業部房間署 對 抱歉"},{"start":10027.122,"end":10045.198,"text":"是 報告委員其實早在108年的時候那院長去視察的時候為什麼會增加這個首檢區是因為當時我們的裁罰只要高強度的裁罰一個案子就是罰100萬那當然也達到阻嚇的作用但是很多的民眾就認為說"},{"start":10047.079,"end":10075.249,"text":"這個罰度太高那是不是我們應該在之前有重新讓我們遊客檢視的機會那這個時候然後提醒他們說是不是有忘了忽略了帶一些含有肉製品的那所以在這樣的一個機制之下所以就有指示我們在與我們整個正式的通關檢查前設立了一個首檢區那這個首檢區就是協助遊客進來然後先再次檢查"},{"start":10075.869,"end":10097.637,"text":"他的手提包包是不是含有一些肉質品或植物的產品那假設在這裡確實帶有這樣的一個產品那你就在那裡行丟棄那你到了海關通氣的時候那就不會有問題但假設你拒絕你拒絕通過手檢區那麼到了海關這個地方同樣要經過這個海關的檢測"},{"start":10100.518,"end":10127.199,"text":"那假設在這裡被檢測出來那你就是有帶有高風險的東西那麼送給我們假設是跟動植物有關那送給我們動物的開發一次就是20萬以上我想請教因為一開始那時候108年那時候應該算是比較嚴格那後面可能就是整個疫情比較緩和之後整個狀況可能就"},{"start":10128.54,"end":10146.415,"text":"這個在海關那邊其實就沒有那麼嚴格我相信署長你自己本身應該也知道那我想請教就是說那未來進到海關進入國門之後你們現在是一律都要檢查或者是還是會分這個"},{"start":10149.037,"end":10163.204,"text":"紅線跟綠線你們還是會這樣分嗎那如果民眾確實他有帶其實我們看到有的如果這個他還是有帶然後他拿的是綠的卡片然後直接走綠線的話那你們也"},{"start":10164.544,"end":10188.425,"text":"我想這個我們就從這件事件說我們大會檢討有兩個措施我們回去會盡數來做研理第一個就是說針對我們這個守檢軍行政指導的這個部分那是可以加減它的一個法源的依據跟裁罰的一個基準就是假設拒絕的話我們應該採取怎麼樣的措施來對這些不配合的旅客來加強做一些處罰的行為"},{"start":10189.125,"end":10197.668,"text":"所以他不配合你們也沒有法則目前是行政指導因為當時的定位就是在協助遊客在通關之前"},{"start":10198.622,"end":10219.629,"text":"做再一次的檢視那第二件事情就是說我們現在是有採取分流那也就是跟39個高風險國家那是一定要要通過首檢區那這個非疫區的那才不需要那如果我覺得為了要提高我們整個"},{"start":10220.909,"end":10247.614,"text":"强度就是防疫的强度那或许我们会要求所有的来自任何的国家都要通过那这个部分我们会马上来做研明那我们希望就是说我们一直在讲说这个要阻绝于境外所以我觉得这一部分应该还要再加强另外我想请教就是说你们在这个防检的这个站里面大部分都是你们自己的同仁吗还是或者是委外的"},{"start":10248.354,"end":10271.43,"text":"是委託一個保全是因為委託保全公司來執行這個協助這個業務那你們自己的你們自己的那個這個防疫署這邊的人員是有多少人我們桃園分署是要派員來督導做這件事情的就是他在旁邊督導然後讓保全人員去做這件事"},{"start":10272.711,"end":10288.25,"text":"那我想請教就是說保全人員他有這樣的一個概念嗎有 我們一定要加強訓練我們也不定期在做訓練因為這些人員可能不了解到底要怎麼第一個態度最重要那第二個要怎麼樣來檢視"},{"start":10291.253,"end":10305.911,"text":"這些行李那包括在S光那裡有S光的判別那還有打開開箱以後那怎麼樣來處理所以這樣的業務是從什麼時候開始是這樣108年以後就交由保全去做這樣的一個工作那108年以前"},{"start":10308.854,"end":10330.949,"text":"是你們自己的沒有沒有設置這樣的一個機制以後才設置這樣的一個機制所以我覺得說這部分應該還要再去加強就是說我們一直希望主決於境外那這部分當然我們希望國人不要把一些肉製品或者是這個植物動植物的這種東西帶進來國內那當然還是會有人"},{"start":10334.992,"end":10350.35,"text":"也許是不小心也許是刻意故意那我覺得說這方面就是我們政府的責任要怎麼樣讓這個東西不要再帶進來我覺得這方面你們應該還要再去加強我跟委員再報告也不乏這個案例就是"},{"start":10351.97,"end":10367.427,"text":"從港澳進來那也那個那個他當然我了解也有這樣子拒絕他不經過結果到了我們的海關區的時候我們有檢疫犬在紅綠區那被檢疫犬嗅聞到了"},{"start":10368.717,"end":10385.747,"text":"他從包包裡拿出來是在機上沒有吃完的三明治那一下子就肉檢就是20萬就開罰那他的當下的作為就是他不繳那不繳就是拒絕入境就被遣送回去了所以這種的都是都有這樣的一個案例的發生"},{"start":10386.528,"end":10404.728,"text":"我覺得說這方面應該還要再加強就像我再問一下部長跟食藥署署長今天很多委員在關心就是從郵包進到台灣來那這些郵包我不知道說你們到底要怎麼去檢查"},{"start":10405.729,"end":10418.891,"text":"裡面也有肉製品可能有一些食物什麼之類的零零總總非常多那我相信你們應該也沒有那個人力去檢查這麼多的包裹那未來你們要怎麼處理這樣的事情"},{"start":10420.493,"end":10449.464,"text":"當然現在雖然說他是有一定就6公斤以下1000美金以下他是免驗沒錯但是他還是要去上登錄啦就登錄他這個東西是什麼那麼所以我們在研究我們研究就是有一些頻繁用一些其他的這個勾機方式比如說他是不斷的頻繁的在輸入自用因為這個原則是只適用於自用如果不是自用的那還是多少公斤都是要"},{"start":10449.904,"end":10465.917,"text":"要查验的那所以是针对那个自用很频繁在输入这些东西的自用的来加强这个追查所以我觉得就是因为这样的一个事件我觉得你们这一个部分应该还要再加强"},{"start":10466.918,"end":10494.717,"text":"跟委員補充一下因為不管是多少的量他輸入的一定要合法與可以輸入的品項登入在官務署駕食藥署才會給予免查驗登記的所以這樣子兩邊配起來之後他才會免驗所以剛才講的非洲豬肉這豬肉相關的疫區的都是不准進來的所以他不會是可以同意得到所謂的免驗的這一項相次跟輸入相次以上說明"},{"start":10496.359,"end":10513.778,"text":"那如果類似就是說我們覺得說小包裹這個部分確實是目前一般民眾就是常用的購買的一個媒介一個平台這個網購平台真的是非常多我相信不論是這個我們那個這個"},{"start":10516.849,"end":10537.075,"text":"中華我們確實每一天收到的這種小包裹真的非常的多那我希望就是說我們在查驗的這方面應該還要再加強不然有時候就是透過這樣的一個小包裹就進來台灣了另外我是不是請部長回我是不是可以再請教就是有關我們農業部"},{"start":10539.756,"end":10568.057,"text":"就是說未來除了說我們邊境這個肉品確實可以攔查可能就在邊境就可以直接查驗嘛那如果說是人員他進到疫區也許他有到那個畜牧場那回來之後他如果沒有通報那他是不是也可能把這個病毒就透過他的衣服他的鞋子就直接帶進來那類似這樣的話你們未來要怎麼處理謝謝委員"},{"start":10569.017,"end":10585.35,"text":"現在所有的牧場它的管理者經營者全部都入案所以都在海關裡面這些通關的時候全部都要經過一些相關的處理措施才可以入關所以是針對所有的牧場對的經營者"},{"start":10589.233,"end":10614.686,"text":"我覺得說這方面因為這一次的非洲豬瘟台中案場其實在前幾天還查得到就是這個主人這個場主的雨鞋還有他們的一些器具還是有這樣的一個病毒那表示就是說其實這個病毒它是可以存在而且可以存在很久可以存活到一千天"},{"start":10615.706,"end":10643.489,"text":"确实这个时间真的非常长所以我觉得说不论是真的是肉品或者是一些他的衣服雨鞋或者一些器具我觉得确实真的要去落实倾销的这样的一个动作要不然可能就真的会透过其他的媒介又传出去那你们针对这一部分我们现在列管的有390户的经营者"},{"start":10644.209,"end":10670.563,"text":"那所有他的出入境尤其是入境的時候這些的一個所有相關的防疫配合措施一定要做到那另外就是我要提醒就是說一旦有發生這樣的一個案例的時候其實我覺得進出的人員應該也要管制像這一次這個案場可能很多媒體或很多人就這樣進出那當時也沒有管制啊你們當時應該也都沒有管制吧其實我們第一時間就已經跟台中市政府講說"},{"start":10671.884,"end":10688.673,"text":"這個案場一定要管制包括人進出的人跟他們自己的事主這個案場主你也不能隨便亂跑而且跑到別的地方去做開槓所以這個都有要求他們要做那對案組的部分我們是有法規可以發那有確定落實"},{"start":10689.353,"end":10711.016,"text":"我覺得應該也沒落實所以現在在昨天的時候前天吧那個警政署這邊也跟地方的配合去拉封鎖線針對整個暗場那個已經又過了幾天了對所以這個也是我們要求台中市政府應該先把暗場這個地方先做一些阻絕讓外人不要進去"},{"start":10712.257,"end":10736.546,"text":"我覺得就是說房間署這邊應該未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況因為本來後來不是說彰化分園也有一場可能類似後來是說陰性嘛對不對那當時那時候隔天就是新聞有這樣報的時候隔天就很多媒體就在那裡面在播所以我覺得說未來如果有類似的狀況其實我覺得房間署你們應該要去嚴格"},{"start":10739.959,"end":10755.48,"text":"管控所有不相干的人确实就是不能进到那个案场里面我在跟委员报告我们同步开设这个我们中央医院中心其实大概每半年都会每三个月吧"},{"start":10755.865,"end":10778.857,"text":"就召開一次那這一次事件的時候地方的整個災變中心也開設了那事實上地方災變中心就有這個權限去做這樣的一個處理所以我們一再的提醒台中市政府要有作為好是我是覺得說要落實啦是是是好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝署長請回接下來請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":10781.471,"end":10785.092,"text":"主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長"},{"start":10812.792,"end":10828.862,"text":"委員好 主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了"},{"start":10831.523,"end":10852.776,"text":"商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎"},{"start":10858.98,"end":10886.812,"text":"問經濟部也不是他農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他然後那可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎好謝謝委員其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多委員知道說其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議那"},{"start":10887.912,"end":10915.194,"text":"當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能郭組長交流完如果沒有後續好我們看下一頁"},{"start":10916.555,"end":10942.332,"text":"而且要判断到底有没有用为什么因为你们说你们要去做一些阻断的时候常常就会说我们如果直接在电商的平台上去做个实验就知道在疑似有小包装猪肉流入台湾的新闻后包括虾皮已经淘宝都说我早在2019年的时候就已经应政府的政策有关规定宣称已经严办那"},{"start":10943.232,"end":10961.83,"text":"可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以甲官建制"},{"start":10962.911,"end":10981.427,"text":"風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商"},{"start":10982.268,"end":11007.383,"text":"电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊"},{"start":11009.269,"end":11027.554,"text":"大家跟我也報告一下 其實落地這件事情來講當然指的有一些公司 當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點 重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們"},{"start":11028.454,"end":11048.508,"text":"那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對那如果說今天它沒有落地的話"},{"start":11049.108,"end":11074.634,"text":"我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落定我跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下"},{"start":11075.695,"end":11096.394,"text":"所以这就是我想问的你的各电商平台的这个组阁跟措施真的有到位吗甚至你有没有主动去去稽查因为你先讲境外就是有落地的都一样如果没有主动的话你根本不知道他们真的是在用我刚刚提的很多方法来规避掉责任"},{"start":11098.2,"end":11120.977,"text":"謝謝委員 其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌 傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字"},{"start":11121.437,"end":11131.524,"text":"像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達"},{"start":11136.767,"end":11161.761,"text":"马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西主长所以目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗"},{"start":11163.061,"end":11183.73,"text":"猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带这个是不是也是违反平台规定"},{"start":11186.204,"end":11199.515,"text":"第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的"},{"start":11200.296,"end":11217.129,"text":"那个字号用假的别人合格的得到合格证的就我去拿别人的因为平台事实上是用城市串接来跟NCC跟经济部比对所以平台并没有进行所谓的审核跟或比对的原始文件真伪"},{"start":11218.01,"end":11234.117,"text":"所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎"},{"start":11234.537,"end":11257.29,"text":"那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面"},{"start":11257.87,"end":11271.065,"text":"跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長"},{"start":11273.207,"end":11286.995,"text":"我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院"},{"start":11290.437,"end":11307.208,"text":"訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果它用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理"},{"start":11309.83,"end":11323.275,"text":"这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来是去年他讲他讲说玩针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器"},{"start":11324.891,"end":11347.129,"text":"但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊那不管嘛對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎"},{"start":11349.079,"end":11372.168,"text":"因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦可是他的这个就是针筒啊"},{"start":11373.976,"end":11390.588,"text":"就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒"},{"start":11391.913,"end":11412.884,"text":"跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟一般的真的不一樣那你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材的等級很遠"},{"start":11415.325,"end":11437.379,"text":"所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性"},{"start":11437.799,"end":11459.057,"text":"跟委員說明他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀手術刀這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是他根據他的用途來歸類他該用什麼管因為醫療器材他有他的功能性跟他的安全性規格會比較高"},{"start":11459.617,"end":11479.96,"text":"那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是"},{"start":11482.443,"end":11503.749,"text":"我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷達在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是"},{"start":11504.369,"end":11530.628,"text":"那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情织其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联访互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫那夏业我觉得我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗"},{"start":11532.618,"end":11554.239,"text":"大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子但是所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福"},{"start":11555.14,"end":11576.937,"text":"部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響"},{"start":11577.617,"end":11594.077,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助"},{"start":11595.939,"end":11620.043,"text":"改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣"},{"start":11620.043,"end":11620.623,"text":"不然你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":11644.964,"end":11671.887,"text":"有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方"},{"start":11672.287,"end":11699.395,"text":"因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法源依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請"},{"start":11701.834,"end":11704.576,"text":"王政訓委員來發言來謝謝主席主席各位同仁其實面對非洲豬瘟的威脅我們更應該要保持沉著跟冷靜這樣才有辦法面對這麼大疫情的衝擊"},{"start":11729.075,"end":11744.432,"text":"從美國107年以來非洲豬瘟在全球快速的擴散之下其實台灣我們很早就成立了非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心共同來度過"},{"start":11746.715,"end":11760.254,"text":"跨部會的協調還有結合地方政府跟民間單位的力量在中央政府的主導之下共同來投入防疫工作在全國人民的高度警覺跟配合之下"},{"start":11761.997,"end":11778.937,"text":"我們成功的阻擋疫情的入侵也守住了國內豬肉產業跟糧食的安全這樣的努力當然是成果非常豐碩大家都有目共睹那國際的肯定也讓我們的豬肉可以再次行銷全球"},{"start":11780.238,"end":11806.353,"text":"因此我相信面對這一次的新一波的疫情挑戰只要中央跟地方大家持續的緊密合作攜手民間的力量共同鎖住防線我們一定能夠再次成功控制疫情守護國家跟農業的安全一開始想要針對關務署的查緝的量能的問題來請教請關務署的蘇副署長請蘇副署長"},{"start":11811.985,"end":11837.971,"text":"市副署長好 今天已經討論很多了不過我想還是先再就教一下 因為不管是在國境安全各方面 關務署都針對於旅客的行李 郵包 貨運各類進口出入品都是一個很重要的角色所以希望有三個部分來請教副署長 第一個就是到底人員目前的狀況如何是不是有嚴重的不足"},{"start":11838.482,"end":11847.612,"text":"第二個就是AI輔助辨識系統的建置的進度第三個就是小三通也是大家很關心的部分那目前的查緝狀況是如何"},{"start":11849.638,"end":11878.878,"text":"我們也知道畢竟在那麼大的流量之下X光的判讀是非常重要的所以第一線的官員的查緝他的專業也非常非常的重要這個專業當然就會有分級的需求也謝謝當初有提出分級的制度之下也讓我們的同仁可以透過初階中階到高階的判讀讓人力的分布可以更為符合現場的需求"},{"start":11879.458,"end":11904.567,"text":"那這個部分有制度當然很好可是總體的量還是要共同讓他在工作的同時呢就能夠有很好的這些人力的分配把關那我們以基隆關為例基隆關其實編制是1084位配置了1072可是現有才1008位"},{"start":11906.508,"end":11923.671,"text":"意思就是說即使是在有這麼好的編制事實上真的在現場的人力還是相對不足只有還缺少了60位那這樣的衝擊我相信大家其實是當然會很辛苦尤其最近這一波"},{"start":11924.292,"end":11946.047,"text":"好像大家應該是都能了解啦也能知道現場人員在這個過程裡面就好像醫療單位我們也同樣面臨這樣的壓力那其實在兩年前就已經有相關的委員注意到關護署這個業務增加人力不足的部分那現在到底情況如何有沒有一個比較"},{"start":11947.928,"end":11956.813,"text":"好的一個數據的呈現針對全體的觀物同仁目前的人力配置的部分有沒有什麼改善措施"},{"start":11957.566,"end":11969.595,"text":"是謝謝委員非常的理解海關的這個業務的一個繁重以及關切我們海關人力不足的一個問題那這邊跟委員報告因為海關的這個人力的來源主要就是官務特考就是經由這個考試的一個分發那我們當然在我們現有的人力之下我們還是要在我們的國門這邊要"},{"start":11986.668,"end":11990.849,"text":"盡力的來把關所以我們主要我們會運用相關的風險管理機制來做查核以及運用這個高科技的一些查核工具那剛剛委員槌尋的就是有關我們在人力的部分那我們目前就是我們配合這個公務人員的一個勤修的制度我們已經有增加165人"},{"start":12011.255,"end":12016.897,"text":"那就是包括在有行李檢查方面以及貨物的一個檢查人數方面我們有增加那針對我們另外就是在官務特考我們今年有新在12月的時候就會有46位的新進的人員會投入海關的這個行列那另外就是我們也有提報在明年官務特考的人數我們的"},{"start":12038.223,"end":12060.698,"text":"一个缺额的需用的名额大概有300人就是明年的光屋特考我们希望能够有禁用300人的一个人数那另外就是针对有关非洲猪瘟的一个防疫因为在107年中国大陆它爆发非洲猪瘟以来那我们这边就是为了要防堵非洲猪瘟所以行政院在109年的时候"},{"start":12068.523,"end":12096.034,"text":"一直到就是到目前是有66個人是同意行政院同意我們延長到115年底就是這個約顧的人數所以可以來當然可以協助來補充我們這個有關非洲豬瘟的查緝的一個人力那我們當然如果說因為這樣子的一個人力缺口就是剛才跟委員報告的如果在考試的這個"},{"start":12099.035,"end":12104.217,"text":"補足之前的這個空窗期我們現在如果還是就是針對人力方面的確非常緊繃的狀況下我們希望說也可以再跟行政院人事行政總處來討論是不是可以再增加我們這個約顧人員的一個"},{"start":12117.922,"end":12137.865,"text":"一個元額的增加的一個情況那我們希望說我們可以在有關這個防堵被動作用的地方可以在更多的一個人力投入謝謝好很期待這個年底能夠有效的補足人力我們知道業務量大當然這個流動率就會高"},{"start":12138.505,"end":12162.512,"text":"所以就要看各級長官如何跟我們這些基層的同仁把感情讓他們繼續替台灣這個防疫的部分再更盡一份心力再來就是小山通那個查緝的部分因為我們也都了解這次租屋的內容很有可能當然不排除是不是小山通也是入侵的管道之一這兩天相關的訊息大家也都看得到"},{"start":12163.513,"end":12177.329,"text":"其實也不是只有地霸而已我們也知道小三通可能還有其他的包括各種的零食 煙酒 乾香菇等等產品會透過小三通進來那目前到底在這個部分"},{"start":12178.75,"end":12200.805,"text":"有沒有相關在處理上可以更精進的地方包括說面對小山東通路的查緝風險在管理上跟查緝上措施有沒有在做一些針對這些從這個對岸跑到台灣這樣的這些可能性的這種管理措施"},{"start":12201.425,"end":12219.692,"text":"那另外對於這個特定航線有沒有加強這個查緝的機制那第三點就是當然這個AI風險分析跟行李辨識系統來提高這個攔檢效率這個也都是可以努力的方向那不顯然有沒有什麼進度可以跟國人在做報告的"},{"start":12220.032,"end":12237.515,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關小三通的部分因為小三通就是中國大陸這邊的入境旅客那針對小三通他的入境旅客他的不管是手提或者是他托運的行李我們都是會百分之百經過X光的一個檢查"},{"start":12238.776,"end":12241.739,"text":"那如果說我們檢查發現有異狀我們開箱有查獲相關的這些不管是豬肉或者是香菇等等農產品這些違規的物品我們就會立即移送給房間署這邊來做處理那當然我們也"},{"start":12257.431,"end":12274.071,"text":"針對剛才委員有提到我們對於比較就是高風險的這個就是有關這個中國大陸這邊的他我們當然就加強我們會跟房檢署這邊來合作以及在我們這個邊境上面的相關查緝機關"},{"start":12275.312,"end":12292.345,"text":"包括海巡這邊我們都會合作來加強來查緝那有關剛才委員有特別提到AI的部分跟委員報告我們其實我們在110年7月的時候我們就有建置AI的一個影像辨識的一個輔助那當時是針對毒品的一個影像的一個"},{"start":12299.79,"end":12314.979,"text":"訓練我們有部署108套的這樣子的一個系統在我們的通關點那我們就是也針對有關肉品跟跟這個香煙等等這個部分我們後續就是有另外一個次世代的一個計畫會擴充在114年到117年之間我們會陸續的來擴充肉品跟香煙的一個辨識"},{"start":12323.106,"end":12347.271,"text":"好謝謝副署長的說明那會後會請這邊提供小山東近三年的通關數量查詢數量跟品項給辦公室做參考因為我們想要了解最近這一段時間有什麼比較明顯波動的部分再過來你剛剛提到就是AI輔助辨識系統的建置進度我想這個非常的重要因為這個"},{"start":12349.019,"end":12364.758,"text":"量的部分我們人力需要透過更好的科技來協助我們也知道關務署也推動了AI輔助辨識系統的設置那這部分審計部在去年的總決算審核報告裡面有提出了三個部分"},{"start":12365.739,"end":12389.805,"text":"希望能夠再改善的第一個就是可辨識毒品藏匿樣態的不足會影響到AI系統的準確性第二個部分AI系統僅能夠辨識一些物品然後判斷率的高低等等所以對於這個氣濕的效能好像還可以再提升第三個廠商會依合約規定來落實AI系統版本的管理跟監控的機制"},{"start":12390.265,"end":12410.135,"text":"那這三項缺失目前有沒有改善的一些進度跟可以讓大家可以更放心的地方跟委員報告就是有關這個樣態不足的部分我們現在我們的一個精進方式就是我們會去擴充我們的訓練資料運用我們相關的這些影像處理"},{"start":12414.457,"end":12416.699,"text":"他的一個報告調整角度等等的這些我們會去會去擴充他的一個一個資料的一個訓練另外我們也會持續去收集我們相關查獲的案例把它輸入這個AI的一個訓練裡頭那我們其實我們要求我們各個官區就是"},{"start":12435.197,"end":12438.919,"text":"他如果已經有查獲相關的這些物品馬上就要去去掃描他的相關的這些圖檔來來輸入我們的這個相關的這個程式另外我們也也會持續來就是跟跟這個法務部這邊我們去申請他有關相關的這個毒品的樣品或者相關的這些我們去"},{"start":12465.369,"end":12487.321,"text":"讓我們整個研發AI影像電視的系統可以去做進一步的學習我們很期待這個系統的建置可以更周全當然有了系統以後後面的計畫就要跟著執行包括貴署也在推動次世代人工智慧輔助氣師計畫"},{"start":12489.703,"end":12515.303,"text":"這個計畫裡面有列了相關的六大目標包括培養科技的查緝能量第二個就是提升這個氣絲的作業效能第三個是舒緩海關第一線的人力負擔第四個是增進整體通關效率第五個是培養海關AI專業人才最後一項是降低判斷與不必要的開驗比例不知道署裡面對這個計畫的信心度如何"},{"start":12515.973,"end":12536.307,"text":"我想我們是絕對有信心可以去達成是因為在很快雖然是到117年才最後驗收事實上面對這一次的這一波的挑戰應該是更快希望把這個計畫能夠落實好謝謝副處長那最後有一個問題我們再請教一下經濟部的長官們"},{"start":12545.239,"end":12563.285,"text":"主長 委員好主長你好我們知道這次的這個衝擊對於整個這個豬的產業非常的明顯的影響那昨天我們的召委也在提到相關的樹困計畫裡面他含了七大項"},{"start":12564.165,"end":12580.378,"text":"其中有一項我們特別關心的就是豬肉攤商的鄉親們他們的衝擊跟目前為止我們了解我們傳統市場的豬肉攤商到底全台灣有多少量如何能夠協助他們渡過這個難關"},{"start":12582.119,"end":12610.006,"text":"跟委員報告我們經濟部目前掌握的傳統市場的攤商數這個是地方政府列管的這個數字有那目前非洲豬瘟發生之後我們有請地方政府去統計這些攤商數裡面是生鮮豬肉攤的這個數字目前還在統計中那有些縣市政府還沒有回報那就是有回報的他們也一直不斷地在修正"},{"start":12611.066,"end":12639.751,"text":"那目前这个后续我们有规划针对猪肉摊商的补助措施那这个目前行政院在研议到时候会有行政院统一对外公布如果说有相关的统计数字回来可不可以提供一份资料给我们办公室因为我们也很希望针对这些乡亲们在应用的过程里面将来有哪一些可以透过大家共同努力来让他们度过这个难关好 谢谢谢谢主席"},{"start":12640.779,"end":12668.377,"text":"好謝謝我們的王委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在那就羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在那麻煩楊耀委員好謝謝主席主席我先請教江署長江署長江署長"},{"start":12676.214,"end":12702.752,"text":"署長好署長我先請問一個問題就是我有看到媒體報導財政部關務署想要發函你們建議食藥署調整現行入境旅客的免衛福部許可證明可以攜帶6公斤食品入境大概是希望你們可以限縮我不知道你們有沒有收到這個公文"},{"start":12705.123,"end":12729.904,"text":"我想這公文是還沒有收到但是我們有相關的訊息我們積極在討論也私下也有在討論溝通當中那這個食藥署的的看法是怎麼樣報告委員因為因為你們你們是在在2019規定規定了一百一千元以美元以下然後六公斤六公斤以內嘛那"},{"start":12732.731,"end":12737.981,"text":"官務處這樣子的想法我不知道食藥署這邊的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":12739.38,"end":12762.407,"text":"這邊跟委員簡單的說明因為當初108年會有這樣子的一個私品免輸入證明容許的一些想法就是因應國人一般旅遊或者是可能遊學出國或者是學習他可能帶回來給等等的那有一點變民的一個味道在裡面"},{"start":12763.047,"end":12779.653,"text":"所以在這種前提之下訂定了1000美元有6公斤以下的是免輸入的證明但是輸入這件事情對於所有的任何輸入產品都必須要官務署做簡單登記是產品"},{"start":12781.514,"end":12804.421,"text":"那產品的相次如果是不符合不准許輸入的就是不准許所以我們這邊也不會發給它免輸入證明所以兩部分的把關其實是可以的所以在這種前提之下我們對於免輸入的相次裡面證明的部分其實一直以來我們都沒有看到有非洲豬瘟相關的一些肉品的輸入的一個情勢"},{"start":12805.561,"end":12825.062,"text":"那在108年公佈之後109年我們其實有一些些看到需要做微調的109年7月15日的時候公告希望微調把1000美元可不可以定義在每日這是第一個第二個是把所有的錢是集中起來"},{"start":12825.743,"end":12852.547,"text":"那之前是每一項產品每一個報單那我們希望是每日的報單等等的一些規定那我們在提出相關的一些甄選意見的過程中總共有197件就一件佔成那由許許多多有不同的樣態甚至希望能夠更放鬆 份況寬可是我們的目的其實是對於合法需要自用的讓它可以進來讓它能夠在規制底下"},{"start":12852.867,"end":12877.895,"text":"那今天也很多的委員的垂詢裡面對於我們如何去做後續的一些管制確實它裡面的那我們一直的認為如果要對非洲豬瘟能夠去確實能夠掌握那重量的部分當然是不是最重要其實內容的品項那內容品項目前在輸入的品項裡面其實沒有發現特定的異常跟不符合規定的地方那一定是在管制之內"},{"start":12878.775,"end":12894.029,"text":"所以當初在109年之後聽到很多意見其實暫緩就沒有做每日的一些規定跟總金額的規定那剛剛也有委員有提到我們其實在看到勾基的過程中的確有非常"},{"start":12894.77,"end":12919.891,"text":"所謂的偏差的數據的一些業者那我們在今年9月1號跟9月18號其實在台中 中區我們就直接去看那一個柱子也進行了裁罰所以我們早在這一次的事件之前呢我們就關注到這個議題那我們會持續跟關務署這邊做協調也聽取各位委員及所有大眾的意見這是個案的部分 個案的集合的問題"},{"start":12921.172,"end":12941.025,"text":"那我剛剛聽了署長的說明我其實看法跟署長是蠻一致的我覺得金額跟重量基本上並不是重點就在這一次我們如何防堵非洲豬瘟"},{"start":12942.633,"end":12960.062,"text":"進入的這個政策目標上並不是重點重點是在相次 對不對對 的確是在 比如說肉品的輸入我們就不允許它是在肉品的在個人自用的那非疫區的也絕對是不能夠進來的"},{"start":12961.102,"end":12976.069,"text":"相對的其他一方面的食品自己使用而且在輸入許可的範圍內那當然是以尊重個人使用我們會許可它免驗因為我們這邊免驗會跟關務署這邊的在勾結之後的確就會"},{"start":12977.47,"end":12996.576,"text":"省卻了民眾需要被查查的部分那這部分其實優先的順序其實在於變民為最重要的優先但是對於用這個途徑去做特別的可能是帶進來做所謂的商業上面使用那我們因為積極的查查之下 裁罰"},{"start":12997.476,"end":13024.962,"text":"進一步呢我會把相關訊息跟關務處這邊做很好的勾結對那以上說明好謝謝署長署長請回謝謝說得非常的的詳細就是應該還是以品相的控管才是重點主席我請一下房間署杜署長房間署"},{"start":13033.673,"end":13047.298,"text":"我們目前得到的資訊是我們因為有非洲助溫的案例所以目前被取消了非預期國家的地位假如說未來"},{"start":13050.659,"end":13074.56,"text":"10月25報已經成報了那假如未來三個月內沒有新的疫情就會恢復非預期的國家那這個是很重要的一件事情所以我想要利用這個機會請教一下署長可不可以詳細說明一下你們目前對於非洲豬瘟清零的進度跟未來的規劃是怎麼樣好 謝謝"},{"start":13076.001,"end":13096.007,"text":"跟委員來做報告你把政策講得清楚一點好的 我們現在的處理上大概就是在第一個 暗場暗場的一個控管上暗場對 因為現在所有的證據都指向這裡因為即便到現在針對暗場的周邊的檢測那今天出來又有兩個"},{"start":13097.062,"end":13117.377,"text":"陽性 那就是針對這個案場所以這個案場的控管是非常非常重要那第二個就是全國的防疫工作那全國防疫工作到目前為止已經進行第二輪那一定要落實他的防疫的作為所以這個部分也有做高強度的控管所以我們大概針對5441場10%的這個高危險區的這個部分"},{"start":13123.562,"end":13137.076,"text":"也加強的清潔跟清消的工作跟檢測的工作所以把全國的案場大家都動起來那第三個就是在移動的車輛方面比如說我們的化製車飼料車載租的車"},{"start":13139.478,"end":13159.317,"text":"那這些車會移動所以對他們的控管是非常非常的重要的所以這部分不管是傾銷或環境的PCR也相對困難啦對 但我們一定要做到所以現在目前已經進行到第二輪那到目前的傾銷所有案場的抽驗PCR也是零"},{"start":13160.959,"end":13186.549,"text":"那第三個就是針對我們屠宰場跟肉品市場的部分那這個的部分也是一樣所有的工作包括你現在因為有些是豬停停宰停停屠宰但羊跟牛也繼續進行所以他的傾銷跟檢測監測的作為就非常的重要所以這個部分也在做進行對那所以我們用嚴密的"},{"start":13187.569,"end":13206.85,"text":"控管做防疫高強度的防疫的一個作為就是希望能夠達到清理那跟委員報告到目前我們所有的檢測還是零除了暗場以外其他的還是零但是我們沒有辦法掉以輕心所以我們還是持續用高強度在做防疫的作為"},{"start":13208.037,"end":13222.006,"text":"政策目標要落實還是必須要靠很嚴密的整個細節都要很注意像我們在COVID-19的疫情期間衛福部的相關作為是做得很好"},{"start":13223.067,"end":13237.678,"text":"陳政委也有跟我們在應變中心來指導所以我們也吸取過去做COVID-19的經驗然後導入到我們這一次的防疫的一個作為所以整體上就更加的精進也更加的嚴密"},{"start":13238.499,"end":13265.174,"text":"因為這件事情對國家的經濟的風險太大了所以一定要很小心那我最後提醒一下就是因為台中有爆發非洲豬瘟的疫情就是這個案場全國就禁用廚餘台中市政府有一些露天的堆置廚餘然後媒體報導我不知道是不是真的就是媒體報導說"},{"start":13268.416,"end":13295.577,"text":"就是暫至廚餘的地方有野豬出沒那這件事情會有什麼影響那要怎麼因應報告委員台中市政府 我的時間到了所以你簡要說明就好好 針對廚餘的部分以及加強要求台中市政府做嚴密的處理這個衛福部一直在做處理那第二個針對這個他們的這個廚藝場的附近有一些野豬的活動的部分那昨天我們的這個"},{"start":13297.478,"end":13324.313,"text":"林務署也已經同行要求他們設圍籬來阻絕不要讓這些野豬能夠進入到我們的廚宇或其他的一個地區對 我們不要防堵了家戶養豬結果野豬出問題這個也是一個很大的麻煩對 加強控管好啦 辛苦啦 謝謝署長 謝謝主席"},{"start":13325.014,"end":13344.226,"text":"好謝謝楊耀委員發言那接下來請葉元之委員發言主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有房政司"},{"start":13357.83,"end":13382.973,"text":"好 那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調的中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的"},{"start":13386.009,"end":13410.601,"text":"其實蠻多的我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟它在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號"},{"start":13411.942,"end":13421.719,"text":"變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎"},{"start":13424.506,"end":13447.098,"text":"我跟委员报告所有非洲国家的只要含猪肉跟肉质的产品都不可以进来国内所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那这边政府讲说只针对中国跟东南亚加强这新闻中央社的报道那如果针对加强那其他的为什么不加强"},{"start":13447.498,"end":13476.958,"text":"跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲豬瘟呈陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是"},{"start":13477.538,"end":13506.307,"text":"比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下特别是到底是哪一些东西是可以下定哪一些东西是不能下定国人到现在搞不太清楚连吴思瑶都搞不清楚"},{"start":13506.567,"end":13534.116,"text":"我看到吳思堯他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思堯不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個"},{"start":13535.496,"end":13563.449,"text":"電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程 對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎"},{"start":13564.957,"end":13577.888,"text":"你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的"},{"start":13578.581,"end":13601.682,"text":"我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題耶是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0值有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛"},{"start":13603.003,"end":13626.5,"text":"我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯"},{"start":13631.209,"end":13645.36,"text":"这个可以进来台湾吗如果只看外包装的话没有办法判定那你上面讲说液态含肉液态汤是指什么上一页含肉液态汤类这是指什么"},{"start":13647.429,"end":13665.862,"text":"這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛"},{"start":13667.003,"end":13695.396,"text":"不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛"},{"start":13696.471,"end":13722.453,"text":"所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方簡吉來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在跨境電商上面抓的照片它就沒有下架你就是可以訂我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰那要怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":13724.455,"end":13742.67,"text":"現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商及時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架"},{"start":13743.462,"end":13763.981,"text":"那我们会持续的跟无垫面工会等等的团体沟通这个是副组长是不是你讲的都是口号嘛我讲的是实际嘛我现在想的是实际上我们民众会遇到的问题你讲都是口号你讲都是原则嘛但实际上原则跟实际现在听起来有极大的落差嘛所以就会有漏洞嘛"},{"start":13764.201,"end":13791.689,"text":"因為這段時間真的是對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下"},{"start":13793.223,"end":13815.824,"text":"房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以这样子我们来正面表列来让民众可以参考"},{"start":13816.184,"end":13844.449,"text":"但我跟我们说一般我们高温杀菌我们的高温杀菌大概121度我知道这个原则我都知道啦这个原则我都我现在是在讲实务面嘛你现在讲的东西大家还是听不懂啊实务面嘛因为我刚刚就是具体问你嘛我是消费者我要下单到底可不可以你们也无法回答啊你只讲一个原则啊那你讲的原则大家都知道啊可是那个原则放到实际上面就无法操作嘛这就是有漏洞嘛"},{"start":13845.305,"end":13874.545,"text":"然後再來就是現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案總共14件對吧主要原因是什麼人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況嘛"},{"start":13875.345,"end":13898.497,"text":"不是 这个我可能要说明一下他的太阳上第一个我先说明进来的雾绝对是全部销毁但我们是追人的责任我知道有销毁我们现在是在讲说那对人的责任的部分要因为我们在查访这个当事人的时候很多都认为说他是被冒名或他不知情多少 1320件里面有多少件他是说他被冒名"},{"start":13900.898,"end":13915.165,"text":"多少件 這個還要再這個沒有 這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會答不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 對那總共幾案"},{"start":13923.277,"end":13934.564,"text":"那目前有采訪的是9案我知道采訪9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊"},{"start":13936.32,"end":13957.771,"text":"第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單的嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是"},{"start":13959.33,"end":13985.842,"text":"你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來收集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13990.209,"end":14018.357,"text":"這個很嚴重這個是有問題的接下來請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在請陳穎委員來做巡檔謝主席麻煩請一下畜牧師來 畜牧師"},{"start":14021.269,"end":14036.291,"text":"選擇寄贈好非常好好我是寄贈好"},{"start":14037.991,"end":14056.743,"text":"我想這次非洲豬瘟的事件目前豬隻近載近運的問題一直到11月6號我想這幾天都人心惶惶我好多肉商的朋友都非常的緊張當然消費者也相當的緊張有很多的擔心"},{"start":14057.623,"end":14074.096,"text":"那擔心這個價格的飆漲或者是之後的崩盤都是大家非常關心的問題那我想要先請教一下就是說目前農業部是有不斷的強調說豬肉的供給是"},{"start":14077.979,"end":14102.938,"text":"无余的那但是我想我们先来谈一下这个冷冻猪肉价格的问题你所了解的目前这段时间的市场波动价格波动的状况是怎么样冷冻猪肉的部分报告委员这个部分在这段期间我们有跟冷冻肉品工会做一些调度你可以对麦克风听到"},{"start":14103.154,"end":14125.387,"text":"在量的供應跟價格的波動上都算穩定都算穩定但是根據新聞報導目前你所謂的穩定因為目前有一公斤飆漲到200元的狀況他豬肉的本來他這不同部位的價格他本來就會不同"},{"start":14126.238,"end":14150.4,"text":"所以我们在同一个部位肉的前后的变动他都在一个1%2%左右所以不是很大的变动这天出来这个新闻算是假讯息吗就我们的了解是没有变动冷冻猪肉没有变动价格价格都没有波动对"},{"start":14152.185,"end":14172.675,"text":"那所以對所以我們那一則我們出現的那個那一則新聞的報導是他是錯誤的我是巨產試驗所那就這個肉品加工就是現在"},{"start":14176.98,"end":14190.854,"text":"各位會不會嚇是不一定啦但是就肉的這個部位的價格來看的話像我們吃的這個冷凍的這個算是三層肉跟冷凍的這個類似是"},{"start":14197.988,"end":14218.809,"text":"嘴边肉吗对嘴边肉那个一公斤要五百多块所以那个是正常的价格那你现在在冷冻的这个排骨排骨就是这个起码要两百是正常的你们要强调是每个部位都维持在一个稳定的价格"},{"start":14220.814,"end":14226.622,"text":"好 那所以你們也沒有針對這個10月27號這篇報導有什麼樣的說明跟解釋"},{"start":14232.785,"end":14254.582,"text":"是他們斷章取義本來一公斤120元的漲到200元突破200元所以他們沒有講清楚是哪個部位漲的應該是這樣子好那如果他們說的120元破200元那大概這幾天120元的那個部位是指什麼"},{"start":14255.623,"end":14282.328,"text":"就是指全豬就是後腿這邊的肉就是專門做貢丸的部分這個肉120到130所以那個部位大部分大概是落在這裡對好 所以假如因為針對我不是豬肉專家我是負責吃而已但是呢但是這個部分因為造成很多這個"},{"start":14283.968,"end":14297.367,"text":"消費者的擔心所以我覺得有什麼樣的新聞你們應該也要很關注那有必要說明的時候也應該要發個新聞稿澄清一下不是嗎"},{"start":14300.336,"end":14323.707,"text":"報告委員對於這個豬肉的價格這個部分事實上我們都有在監控好所以冷凍的部分目前是沒有問題所以我們也不需要再協調協調工會啦或者是我們是每天都有在跟他們保持協調好那但是因為有這一則新聞我要麻煩你們也要處理一下嘛好"},{"start":14327.734,"end":14354.68,"text":"那再来就是有关于这个进载禁运期间还有之后的问题当然在进载禁运的期间猪肉可能飙涨那我们很多的这个地方首长啦民代啦也都会担心所以所以像我们台东当然也也一样宣布这个进载禁运那当然在进载禁运之后这个因为"},{"start":14357.085,"end":14373.841,"text":"我們在這段期間齁其實有個開銷是固定的啦就是這個譬如說飼料啦人工啦他就是豬隻還是會不斷的吃然後他會長大嘛那長大你不屠宰他"},{"start":14374.361,"end":14401.167,"text":"他又要他又會繼續吃那這飼料也是一個開銷所以我覺得這些肉商這些養出的就是說他們殺也賠不殺也賠所以這個部分當然在這個價錢的控管方面我不曉得就是說你們在這個部分是不是已經有"},{"start":14402.468,"end":14404.693,"text":"比較明確的處置方式了"},{"start":14406.232,"end":14434.546,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們要到超前部署吧有 這個部分對於這一些補助的措施這一些都有在研議即將會提出來另外對於再來之後這一段期間禁運禁載期間的租資它日後開市以後它的供應我們也會做一些"},{"start":14436.107,"end":14445.599,"text":"調節跟調配那個你們可以大概提一下大概是哪幾個方向哪些哪些方式來協助穩定這個價格"},{"start":14450.653,"end":14477.275,"text":"就是說它開市以後因為我們近載經營了15天所以會有大概有將近30萬隻的豬隻那這個部分我們因為如果你同一天上市的話那它的價格就容易產生大的波動所以這個部分我們在調配上面會去做處理讓它不要同時去上市"},{"start":14477.395,"end":14488.789,"text":"所以你們只有在做這個租資的這個調配跟控管而已嗎其他的沒有需要再跟其他工會協調或者是政府的一些補貼"},{"start":14491.843,"end":14520.105,"text":"成銷人拍賣這個部分都還是很好 那署長委員我特別跟您報告那我們同步都有考慮到對這些的損失受影響的一個補貼所以這個一級生產因為我們畢竟即便是協調協調這些工會進來協助那大家也是要釋放力多不然誰願意做您剛才關注的包括不管我們是養豬的農民還是我們的批發市場包括肉品市場還有我們的成銷人包括屠宰場"},{"start":14521.245,"end":14541.218,"text":"以及是我們這個EDP次的母豬場那這些的部分都有研擬這個補助跟相關的一個措施那另外也針對廚餘的養豬場用這個飼料的差價以及有油脂的一個補助這邊都有"},{"start":14542.219,"end":14560.57,"text":"都已經研擬 但現在就等整個院裡面定案以後就可以適當實際公布你這樣講就比較清楚一點 好 謝謝好 那你們都請回座那我們接下來就是請那個衛福部長來 請時部長委員好"},{"start":14565.534,"end":14588.13,"text":"5月份本期有在這裡質詢有關於也還有安排到這個蘭嶼考察有關於這個蘭嶼醫院興建的部分那當時前部長邱部長已經有允諾10月份會提報這個公建計劃所以我大概目前今天我想大概追一下進度了解一下說目前進度狀況如何"},{"start":14588.663,"end":14617.67,"text":"好 跟委員報我們規劃未來這個蘭嶼醫院跟蘭嶼衛生所因為它很鄰近我們會把它整併起來一起來運作讓這個人力資源 醫療資源可以集中運用那目前已經提報了一個計畫到行政院10月28號已經送了那規劃是地上三層的建物那未來會提供住院的床宿還有這個包含這個透析床還有復健"},{"start":14618.63,"end":14640.994,"text":"还有这个内外科的服务这样所以目前那个总经费多少公企大概需要几万差不多是6亿7千万只有6亿7千万吗这件物以后每年的营运都还可能需要补贴因为那天到蓝宇的时候我印象中我有看到大概一个14亿的数字"},{"start":14646.371,"end":14668.202,"text":"那個可能是本來是這樣做要把那個蘭嶼衛生所先移植然後整個打掉之後然後再蓋所以是包含衛生所的那個費用對對對那個還要移植那我們現在是規劃這樣會很久所以我們把它分一期二期工程來蓋所以先在衛生所旁邊的空地先蓋起來"},{"start":14669.102,"end":14680.235,"text":"就不要等那个卫生所移植移植之后再打这样时间会拖太长好那所以我们现在信件计划到底是已经送到哪里了"},{"start":14680.84,"end":14698.73,"text":"在行政院我們28號送出OK已經到行政院了好那這個部分我想其實我們這個消息出來也受到就是說在地有一些部分蘭嶼鄉民的質疑因為可能"},{"start":14699.91,"end":14728.065,"text":"過去他們會有一些被欺騙不好的經驗所以認為說我們是不是又在畫大餅那我想這個部分當然他們也有比較具體的提出說當然蓋醫院我們都了解不是難事雖然在蘭嶼確實是比較困難一點整個成本都很高還有發包的問題但接下來後續的這些醫護人員的進駐我想也期待說可以同步"},{"start":14729.507,"end":14731.274,"text":"讓大家了解我們"},{"start":14733.898,"end":14762.105,"text":"就是說預先的規劃的做法是什麼那個部長可不可以用一點點時間稍微因為我們現在規劃大概期程上會在差不多120年或121年左右會開幕營運那這段期間我們也會有人力的這個規劃包含公費生會陸陸續續會出來那我們就有公費生可以去協助另外也會結合當地的其他醫療資源所以有鎖定"},{"start":14762.705,"end":14775.689,"text":"哪幾家醫院馬街體系來做後送的資源等等那搭配健保的IDS計畫也會有跟當地的衛生所就是有公費生那加上我們也會分配給這個蘭嶼醫院這樣"},{"start":14778.643,"end":14794.451,"text":"好 所以我們就是說要告訴大家的是說除了醫院硬體的這個興建之外同時在我們推動這個蘭嶼醫院興建的同時其實衛福部也早就同步規劃了整個"},{"start":14795.071,"end":14810.708,"text":"希望爭取這一家醫院的有別於其他的醫院不是以自負盈虧的方式來進行那麼是以公醫的使命來興建這一家醫院那麼人力上都是以公職人員就是正職的人員來編列這個員額這樣"},{"start":14813.066,"end":14827.02,"text":"好謝謝部長我想這個是一個很重要的概念那我也謝謝部長跟衛福部全體同仁對於我們這個離島的這個醫療的關心跟投注好感謝你們謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":14836.544,"end":14836.924,"text":"本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本"},{"start":14860.407,"end":14868.672,"text":"在本會議室繼續審查職業安全衛生法部分條文修正查案等31案那非法案相關列席人員請先離席 謝謝"},{"start":14884.614,"end":14889.501,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15557.5,"end":15557.91,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19824.997,"end":19853.62,"text":"好 現在繼續開會介紹出席委員及列席官員那第一位是王玉敏 王委員再來楊耀 楊委員還有王振旭 王委員還有我們出席的官員是勞動部次長李建宏謝謝治安署署長林益堂治安署 對不起勞動及職業安全衛生所衛生研究所所長王厚誠謝謝"},{"start":19855.849,"end":19877.379,"text":"勞動條件及就業評審司司長黃吉亞勞動法務司司長傅費芝公務人員保障暨培訓委員會安衛防護處處長蔡憲維謝謝行政院公務工程委員會工程管理處檢任計政江鵬行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處專門委員曾一鈞謝謝"},{"start":19883.018,"end":19907.682,"text":"再來是內政部國土管理署都市基礎工程組檢任計政 王錫明好 謝謝消防署綜合規劃組 綜合企劃組檢任視察 溫惠周好 謝謝國防部資源規劃師 科技企劃處副處長 薛聖吉 謝謝教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員 廖雙慶 謝謝國情署專門委員 林如龍 謝謝"},{"start":19913.653,"end":19938.045,"text":"清華署組長吳振華謝謝水利署副組長吳明坤國營事業管理師科長王啟明產業園區管理局副組長蘇鴻毅謝謝中小企業署副組長林玉琦謝謝交通部中規師檢任秘書楊茂森謝謝"},{"start":19942.134,"end":19957.69,"text":"衛務部國健署社區健康組研究員麥陽俊心理健康師副市長鄭淑欣數位發展部數位產業署檢驗視察黃國元 法務部參事汪南君"},{"start":19967.008,"end":19995.914,"text":"好繼續審查職業安全衛生法部門條文修正草案等31案那至院盤第40條以下條文及保有條文皆須繼續審查一樣以先行政院提案條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見好現在處理院盤第40條然後出席委員有王振興委員有提案林淑雲委員要不然再來"},{"start":19999.195,"end":20025.422,"text":"劉建國委員還有好 這幾位委員也有一併提第四條的草案好 請行政單位先做說明好 勞動部報告有關第四十條的部分在場委員 劉建國委員跟王正訓委員的提案都跟行政院版一致所以我們建議照行政院的提案通過來 請楊耀委員"},{"start":20028.607,"end":20042.766,"text":"因為還有其他的委員的提案呢就是我也一併表達一下我的意見我當然是支持院版的意見不過我看其他委員大概有"},{"start":20043.587,"end":20059.328,"text":"有一些是法定刑規定在最低法定刑在6個月以上我覺得這個就是可能不必要就讓法官做裁量有的把死亡人數"},{"start":20062.372,"end":20063.393,"text":"所以你意思是怎樣"},{"start":20087.637,"end":20092.301,"text":"第四條依照行政院的草案來通過謝謝繼續處理行政院所提第41條草案那委員王正旭劉建國還有"},{"start":20115.356,"end":20142.284,"text":"有初期我們才宣讀啦 剛剛也特別 昨天開會的時候就有講了有王玉美委員所提的修正動議第九案好 請行政機關表示意見好 老東部說明有關在場委員 劉建國委員 王昇迅委員的提案都是跟行政院版相同所以建議照行政院版 行政院提案通過不是啦 41條還有修正動議啊對啊 有修正動議啊 我剛有講"},{"start":20144.861,"end":20163.719,"text":"好 修正動議的部分我講一下這個部分呢原來行政院版的這個可能會讓那個有一些移動或破壞現場的人呢他就免除這個刑法但是呢對於那種故意違反的或者是比較重大的我覺得這樣子其實是"},{"start":20165,"end":20187.295,"text":"有太過於寬鬆之餘 所以我的修正動議裡面呢就是建議這個還是得要修回來 特別針對故意違反第37條第4項的規定未經許可而移動或破壞現場那一樣還是要納入這個刑法的規範 以上來 請署長表示意見"},{"start":20188.403,"end":20194.754,"text":"就王玉明委員提案的部分確實我們在這一次的有關於這個違反這個37條第4項這個非經檢察機構許可"},{"start":20200.579,"end":20227.595,"text":"移動或破壞現場的話我們是從刑責移到這個行政法那目前在43條是有疑列的那不過委員這邊有考慮到說如果是這個故意違反的部分是不是應該要維持這個刑事法所以我們是同意這個修正動議的這個提案好你就同意了對不起來參事要表示意見的他第一次主動出手各位"},{"start":20228.912,"end":20231.096,"text":"楊委員請坐下好不好那個汪先生要講話"},{"start":20240.977,"end":20259.929,"text":"觀眾是表示意見來謝謝主席各位委員各位先進大家好法務部在這邊發言我們可以理解那個王委員您的修正動議還有勞動部這邊的意見但是我想就法制面來講因為我們本來的現行條文"},{"start":20261.21,"end":20280.838,"text":"其实它就是处罚故意了因为我们的条文来看除非你有定过失它才会处罚过失如果没有定基本上就算没有写故意我们的条文这样定它就是包含故意了所以如果我们在这里加个故意其实跟现行条文是没有差别的"},{"start":20281.318,"end":20300.426,"text":"好那以上那如果说现在其实我们原来的报告里面书面报告也是支持院版因为考量原来的状况像这样的状况如果改成行政法的话那如果他因为我们这条的目的本来就是为了保全现场的证据"},{"start":20301.007,"end":20325.147,"text":"那保全现场证据如果真的有被破坏其实我们刑法的165条是有湮灭隐匿证据的那个条文是可以处理的是165条我们如果是其实是可以相应可以处理假设真的他有破坏现场就是有隐匿他的目的是为了隐匿湮灭证据的这种破坏现场的情形其实我们165条也是可以处理的"},{"start":20325.487,"end":20347.873,"text":"但是原来原来的治安法他其实本来就有存在对对他本来就那是后来原版的版本把它拿掉啊我现在是把它就是加回来就是特别针对这一种就是故意的行为因为你们原来的这种修法你会让一些他可能就是刻意本来的治安法是有的这个参事你们了解"},{"start":20348.573,"end":20368.958,"text":"原來版本有那現在是勞動部送出來版本把它拿掉行政版是把它拿掉那我現在修正動議是我覺得不應該拿掉就是事實上在職安法裡面如果發生重大的職災這個他刻意去湮滅那個證據故意去移動現場就是讓你沒有辦法還原真正的事實這個其實還蠻知識體大的"},{"start":20371.198,"end":20399.334,"text":"因为很多的你后面的那个诉讼或者是官司他通通都推到是你劳工个人的操作不当或不慎那你如果是基于要维护这个劳工的利益的话原来的旧有的版本本来就是存在的是后来行政院版本讨论的时候把它拿掉那我认为原来是OK的然后但是呢原来可能他的那个范围会太大就针对这种故意"},{"start":20399.795,"end":20406.028,"text":"我们特别在这个第四项这边就是在写健怀那这个我觉得没有什么"},{"start":20407.549,"end":20433.561,"text":"因為你原來的治安法就有我不知道法務部有沒有弄清楚原來的治安法早就有那如果按照你講的就是說刑法這邊已經可以處理的話那為什麼原來的治安法他本來就有這樣的規定報告委員我的意思是說如果我們現在要處罰故意的話其實我們現在條文就是可以就不用加故意因為加故意跟沒有加故意在條文的意思上是一樣的"},{"start":20435.209,"end":20453.7,"text":"我的重点是这个那因为我主要是保全证据这块我如果委员还有一亿就说如果把它移到行政法我觉得没有处罚到那这样子你觉得有些恶意是破坏现场隐匿湮灭证据这种状况那我的意思是说我们刑法刑法165其实也是可以处理的"},{"start":20454.144,"end":20472.965,"text":"那保全證據最終就是希望說能夠維持能夠還原好那我看他們的立法說明裡面好像針對這一點說是因為有有一個解決的方法那是不是可以請那個主管機關就你們對於這一點你們當初要修的是不是可以再說一下因為你們說因為現在是數位"},{"start":20475.037,"end":20498.139,"text":"取证可以还原我好像有看到你们这一点的说明是不是可以这一点可以解释一下那就法制面我是提出我刚刚的建议那基本上这还是政策决定我们都尊重看是要弄成行政法还是要弄还是要回归刑法其实法务部都尊重只是说我的意思是说加故意在这里其实没有差别在法治体力上来说以上"},{"start":20500.427,"end":20522.577,"text":"好 那個署長要不要補充說明一下針對剛剛參事所講的其實在行政院版的時候是把原本是違反37條第4項是放在這個41條的刑事法的部分那這一次因為我們會移到這個43條的變行政法的部分是考量到"},{"start":20523.297,"end":20550.692,"text":"在現在目前的實務上剛剛這個參事提到的證據保全以我們的檢查實務來講基本上透過現在的檢查機關所提供的資料或是我們從現場所留存的這個相關的隱私資料等等或相關人的一個訪談大概我們可以知道說這個現場有被移動破壞那這個部分所以我們認為在現在的實務上基本上可以用這個行政法來處理"},{"start":20551.833,"end":20577.244,"text":"那另外的考量是說因為過去在整個案件我統計我們移到這個司法機關大概有三分之二都沒有被起訴或這個還起訴或不起訴所以變成說移動或破壞現場基本上對僱主是完全沒有刻到任何的責任所以我們希望這一次是43條是我們這一次行政院版是有行政法的部分那委員"},{"start":20578.604,"end":20597.182,"text":"我想王委員是考慮到說有一些比較蓄意刻意故意的這個是涉及到這個犯罪行為的部分是不是可以保留到也有一些樣態是可以在41條用刑法來處理但是一般的案件我們還是會用43條的刑證法來裁罰"},{"start":20600.27,"end":20616.671,"text":"好這樣應該四三條就處理到剛剛你的單六部分了但是那個針對那種比較惡意的他會免處刑罰他是把原來這個刑罰的部分他那個直接拿掉所以我才會再提一個修正東西就是應該要"},{"start":20617.692,"end":20635.022,"text":"加回來但加回來是針對這種故意就像剛剛署長講的就是你如果一般性的這種案件他按照行政他行政開罰就好但是對於這一種比較是故意而且重大去破壞現場的你就直接免除他刑法上面的責任這不太對吧"},{"start":20636.588,"end":20665.211,"text":"我剛剛聽參事講是違反那個內容他們以前就很弱以前他們移送的被處罰比例很低好嗎那你現在又把這個職安法裡面完全都不規範的情況底下你真的覺得法務部那邊他可能連起訴連理都不理他之前是這樣子他們送過去的案件高達三分之二是都不受理的那現在還要在這個法裡面直接把它拿掉那以後就通通都不受理這類的案件"},{"start":20665.951,"end":20689.574,"text":"那個就看檢察官要辦不辦啦對啊比較懶多一點的就說你根本職安法寫都沒有寫他怎麼會去引用另外一條說什麼要不要破壞證據不會所以我覺得這一個部分是如果我們認為這個職安法的修法我們對於這一種雇主他沒有善盡保護這個勞工的責任發生職災那他還想要去破壞現場"},{"start":20691.495,"end":20708.713,"text":"躲避責任然後要卸責給勞工這個我們是絕對不會允許的那之前就是看到我們的司法的怠惰我們司法起訴的比例非常非常的低啊甚至不受理啊那在這樣的情況底下你又倒退的你這一條整個通通都拿掉情況底下那"},{"start":20709.504,"end":20733.004,"text":"勞工的權益怎麼保障 僱主的責任你怎麼就責我是覺得應該是要再放回來這個沒有衝突嘛 這完全沒有衝突就是我們很多的立法律就是我如果覺得這個是重要因為這是職安法的修法 我們就是保障勞工那就是應該它原來的職安法本來就有是這次他們把它拿掉"},{"start":20733.985,"end":20742.994,"text":"本來的法我覺得很好啊你是保障勞工權益啊那怎麼會就是你不允許破壞現場啊怎麼會新修正的版本反而是倒退的呢"},{"start":20744.349,"end":20770.658,"text":"好 那接下來等一下 陳清輝委員先舉手再來王委員 再來林委員 對 剛好聽到法務部參事的發言所以我是想跟參事確認說你說現在的條文是行政法嘛行政法的話是不是只要有責任能力不管是故意過失都會被處罰就像是交通這樣子因為如何避免剛王委員所提到的情形"},{"start":20772.709,"end":20792.985,"text":"報告委員因為在這裡就是行政刑罰了所以他這裡的這裡的這樣的定的條文其實就就是處罰故意犯了在這個我們維持原條文如果要維持刑罰的話其實就不用加故意其實就維持原條文就可以是是"},{"start":20796.902,"end":20813.392,"text":"不是我的意思就都我們都尊重就是如果要改成行政法就是照院版如果大家同意要維持現行條文其實維持現行條文我們也尊重這個就是政策決定這樣子就是看委員們覺得說要處理"},{"start":20814.097,"end":20833.926,"text":"再請王委員完之後 再請林委員再請行政機關統一答覆 好不好 抱歉 謝謝謝謝主席 因為這邊林委員是希望增加第四款 而且上面有故意兩個字嘛那當然是也讓大家知道說故意好像"},{"start":20835.527,"end":20852.942,"text":"是它的必要性如何還有如何能夠在透過原條文的處理之下能不能夠把這個爭議或者是爭點做一些適當的安排那如果我們在這個地方不加故意這兩個字會造成什麼影響這是第一點"},{"start":20853.542,"end":20879.892,"text":"第二點就是如果把故意放進來那未來有任何在處理上這兩個字有沒有造成法條處理的一些造成的困難如果怎麼舉證什麼叫故意之類的相關的疑惑或者是疑慮這邊可不可以請參事再幫忙說明以上來請林委員好不好然後再從一答覆好不好謝謝"},{"start":20884.449,"end":20909.678,"text":"我想因為這個條文主要是要處分這個37條第二項其實都已經叫做重大直災傷亡了重大的 這個是相對來講已經是相當的嚴重的那我要講這個是因為我上前一條我來不及講其實在這種狀況裡面韓國還訂了一個特別的法律叫重大災害處罰法"},{"start":20910.598,"end":20930.217,"text":"就是說韓國定了一個重災企業處罰法處理嚴重公安事故然後如果因為企業或工廠因疏於安全防護而發生重大災害導致員工受傷生病或死亡的話他是要把負責人和執行長"},{"start":20931.679,"end":20946.034,"text":"要追究刑責的那最明顯的一個例子就是說這個去年有一個鋰電池的工廠這個爆炸他的代表被判一審被判了15年的重刑"},{"start":20947.649,"end":20973.73,"text":"那我們當然是說我們要這樣子嗎那我們也沒有一定要這樣子但是就是前一條裡面這41條我40條想說那我們總要一個最低的刑期吧那如果不這樣的話這一個地方41條裡面我已經許可但是我覺得王詠敏的講法可能我們要再思考一點說你說要故意然後才處分"},{"start":20974.471,"end":21003.161,"text":"可是你無從證明他故意反而處分不到會不會對這個就是我要講的事實上我認為原來的治安法不用放故意兩個字維持有刑法這個我是贊成的那是後來我們跟這個勞動部溝通然後他說他又增加了行政的部分所以這邊呢把它修正成是故意這個我也同意但是我不同意的是現在行政院版他是把刑法整個拿掉喔"},{"start":21004.121,"end":21024.008,"text":"你看喔他右邊這個是他第四款是完全沒有的所以我不同意啊他把原來的第四款是完全拿掉的這個我完全沒有辦法同意就等於說他破壞現場我們留著我們留著如果沒有大礙的話其實就照原條文留著可以啊可以就好了不要跟動他"},{"start":21025.589,"end":21043.656,"text":"都不要改啊 可以啊因為你加了故意兩個字反而可能會變成更可以啊但是現在行政院院版不可以他是把它拿掉的那我們是不是維持原條文的這個文字原條文的文字是什麼好 等一下現行條文有故意兩個字嗎沒有"},{"start":21052.344,"end":21072.971,"text":"來 請署長統一回應好不好 謝謝跟委員說明為什麼 不是拿掉是一列到43條改行政法就是罰還從3萬到150萬我們的這個當時的考量是這樣對雇主會比較有嚇阻的效果因為我可以直接開罰到150萬"},{"start":21074.711,"end":21102.919,"text":"那如果留在刑法剛剛有跟委員報告以現行我們去統計有三分之二的司法單位是沒有起訴的或是還起訴所以這個對目前的這個違法的雇主是連一塊錢都沒有罰到所以我們希望是用行政法來處理那為什麼不兩軌並用我們現在就是兩軌並用兩軌並用如果文字一樣的話這個就要問法務部這樣子會不會文字都一樣這樣在體力上允不允許我們兩邊都放"},{"start":21108.228,"end":21124.567,"text":"不表示就是原来的原条文41条维持原来的原条文然后再增加43条那这样子有没有冲突原条文是在第二款对这样子可能我们要可能按比例原则可能要有一点区分"},{"start":21126.408,"end":21148.526,"text":"可能才有办法处理要不然这个样子这样子又有刑责又有行政法这样子一事不二罚的状况那要怎么去用他们有不二罚一个是刑责一个是行政法可是要怎么样的状况去用刑罚有怎么样状况去用行政法这个部分如果没有一点构成要件好故意"},{"start":21157.732,"end":21170.66,"text":"好吧 這樣好像也是可以啦可以啦好 故意 那就是故意故意的話就有刑責那無從證明故意就行政法這樣好像邏輯說得通啊 OK可以啊可以 你那個鐵麥坑說的你給我頭扣個點這都錄音的 但要會議記錄"},{"start":21188.225,"end":21197.136,"text":"做著講究 依照王委員所提的修正動議來通過 可以了好 各位沒有意見我們就依照王委員所提的修正動議來通過"},{"start":21206.588,"end":21220.357,"text":"但是沒有人說有了那個法律以後這個是整個工人這個連GDP多少以上然後還這麼多的人死傷這是國恥我們也應該要朝那個方向"},{"start":21224.386,"end":21247.791,"text":"41條就是依照運營委員所提的修正同意來通過啦好那你們還是要注意43條這個這個內容有沒有我們繼續審查院版所提第43條草案那委員有提的是台灣民眾黨不在好還有委員有所提的是王振興委員林淑溫委員"},{"start":21250.638,"end":21272.507,"text":"劉建國委是44條還有我這邊先看完還有修正動議劉委員所提的是第10案請行政機關先做說明"},{"start":21273.697,"end":21292.915,"text":"好 在場委員所提案的部分劉建國委員的部分是跟行政院版相同那王振旭委員提案的部分配合我們昨天在討論的時候在行政院版的部分在這個第15條之一增加第三項還有第26條 第27條 第27條之一第一項"},{"start":21299.301,"end":21315.49,"text":"這個部分都有增加的一些我們在43條 王聖遜委員這邊有配合增加的一些罰則規定可以分別來針對工程業主的強化這個旅業管理跟原始業單位的成長管理責任的部分這個部分我們是同意"},{"start":21316.17,"end":21323.719,"text":"那第二部分有關於離除氛圍提案的部分希望將這個罰還的目前是行政院版是3到150萬修正為5萬到這個300萬"},{"start":21329.605,"end":21350.178,"text":"的以下的罰環 那我們是考量到說行政院版的部分已經將現行的一個罰環上限提高到5倍 那這個下限的部分我們也考量到在目前國內大概都是中小微型企業為主 是不是這個罰環的下限可以維持 跟上限可以維持不變"},{"start":21357.56,"end":21384.546,"text":"來 另外有這個劉委員的修正動議部分我們是同意所以我們建議照委員王振旭等23人及劉建國委員修正動議提案通過所以剛剛講應該你們的草案也不是為此不變你們還是有修高這個華澤的對啊對啊你講什麼為此不變我聽不懂"},{"start":21385.936,"end":21412.458,"text":"你講話好像怪怪的 好來行政黨委已經表示意見 其他委員有沒有什麼意見來 請王振興委員謝謝沙偉謝謝大家的支持我想因為裡面有很多的修正所以我們把它統整以後希望能夠讓它更周全 以上好 再請林淑穩委員"},{"start":21415.425,"end":21430.639,"text":"現在刑責也是這樣子有限然後行政罰則也是這樣子都沒變事實上我們從實務面來看其實我們都知道是都沒有嚇阻的作用"},{"start":21431.977,"end":21455.364,"text":"不太有嚇阻的作用所以我們才覺得說其實應該要更更達到拉高這個處罰然後達到嚇阻的作用然後讓我們的企業主其實應該更重視相關的職災職安這樣子那你們所值的理由認為不宜是什麼原因我剛才沒聽清楚抱歉那請次長再說明"},{"start":21467.601,"end":21495.109,"text":"從那個數據上顯示四十三條裁法的案件大概六十七八個都是有很嚴格的事業單位原本講因為確實中小企業裁法顯示也是這樣子那可是剛剛那個李主任委員講的也是如果真的要提高客服力的話其實我們也是可以支持把這個法管提高為五萬上到三萬"},{"start":21497.1,"end":21512.716,"text":"對啦 三萬變五萬其實是同樣意思啦我們老實說三萬變五萬其實一位一生就給他三百萬啦 五百萬啦都不可能啦那個出犯 甚至出犯還不一定咧現在還有行政法法咧還有情有可原 還有減半咧"},{"start":21514.949,"end":21540.594,"text":"行政法法不曉得第八條還是第幾條還可以減半耶這個還授予行政部門讓我們這些管理的作用法都失去了原來法律的作用啦我們這裡法律上略嫌都不好遇到一個行政法法他就給你減半啦實務面也都有發生過啦所以如果考量到這個根本就有這樣提高跟沒提高差不多多少應該是多少"},{"start":21555.058,"end":21567.269,"text":"所以你的第一項就是要三萬改為五萬以上然後然後那個一百五千變成三百萬對不對就第一項那其他的其他的"},{"start":21575.601,"end":21604.118,"text":"好各位請大家意見 這個條文第三條草案就是依照林書穩所提的第一項 這樣變動調整為五萬以上 三百萬元以下嘛然後再就是依照王振興跟劉建國所提的修正動議來通過王振興委員的提案修正動議 林書穩委員的提案這樣可不可以"},{"start":21605.009,"end":21625.908,"text":"好可以好那我們第43條就這樣處理來繼續來審查院辦所提第44案草案然後委員有王振旭委員林淑雯委員"},{"start":21636.15,"end":21664.887,"text":"劉建國委員還有好就這樣我們併案一併來討論請行政機關先表示意見是目前在場委員的提案版本都跟行政院版相同所以建議照行政院提案通過好各位有沒有其他意見 沒有啦我們第44條草案就依照行政院所提的版本來通過"},{"start":21671.687,"end":21693.841,"text":"繼續審查行政院所提第45條草案那委員有王志旭委員 林淑雯委員王育民委員還有修正動議有不在 還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議 我們一併來討論 請行政單位表示意見"},{"start":21695.379,"end":21720.385,"text":"是目前我們這邊針對這個王振旭委員的部分提案的部分在行政院版的這個第一項第二款甄列有關違反第15條之一第三項的罰則部分因為可以強化這個對於這個工程業主的強化旅業管理的這個督促所以這個部分我們是建議可以參採這個委員的版本那針對這個"},{"start":21723.026,"end":21739.428,"text":"王玉明委員的部分提案的部分有提到這個剛剛我們不是這個提案違反這個三十九條第四項的罰則部分因為在現行的各主管機關他已依照這個行政程序法跟勞檢法勞動檢查法相關規定在處理這個人民的陳情案件不得洩漏"},{"start":21740.409,"end":21768.815,"text":"這個有關於申訴人勞工的身份所以而且在公務人員也有這個如未依這個保密規定來處理這個人民澄清案件會造成洩密的話不僅要負刑事責任還有民事跟相關行政責任就是比這個目前的行政法還更嚴謹更嚴厲所以這個部分針對第45條的部分我們建議照委員王振旭委員第23人提案以及劉建國委員的修正動議通過"},{"start":21771.684,"end":21799.783,"text":"好 各位委員有沒有其他意見要表達來請陳清威委員我想詢問一下您第二項有提到的所謂的性質可以舉例說明嗎就是依照不同性質才加重等等這個性質是怎麼比較這個職場委員這邊報告一下陳清威委員有在提一個修正動議"},{"start":21804.654,"end":21809.296,"text":"抱歉抱歉針對第45條黃委員再提個修正動議好謝謝第二項因為依照他的嚴重情節或者是事業規模這個都可以理解但是性質的話您指的是他的"},{"start":21829.847,"end":21852.077,"text":"他的事業的不同項目嗎可以舉例說明嗎因為我們在治安法裡面規模是指那個勞工人數的規模那性質就是他的風險他是製造業營造業或是一般的行業或是像醫療院所服務這個服務業等等那個性質是以我們依照業別來分有這個高風險中風險低風險風險程度來分"},{"start":21858.092,"end":21869.225,"text":"所以你的意思是說假使是高風險或是中度風險違反了你就會再加重像營造工程的話當然就會加重理解"},{"start":21874.429,"end":21897.202,"text":"還有其他主席不好意思 劉建國委員的修正動議部分裡面有特級會昨天有保留的一個22條之二要有一個修正動議所以這個部分可能在這個條次上會到時候會做一些聯動聯動所以這個部分特別提醒這個部分45條你是說針對22條之後那個"},{"start":21900.79,"end":21925.551,"text":"裡面有會相似會因為昨天有一條保留會相似上會會連動到所以先保留所以覺得我們先保留了你們調整的時候我們在第二天的時候再提出來好不好好好謝謝那本條文我們先就先行保留待第二天再討論好那基於審查院辦所提第46條草案那委員"},{"start":21927.259,"end":21937.585,"text":"也有提的是王振旭委員林淑雲委員還有劉建國委員是第48條王毓民委員是45條之一然後"},{"start":21949.534,"end":21977.594,"text":"好那我們請行政機關行政單位先來做說明目前委員所提案的部分除了部分有一些文字的差異大概方向上跟內容都跟行政院版一致所以這一條是第46條我們建議照行政院的行政院版提案通過第46條行政院的版本所提草案各位有沒有意見"},{"start":21979.873,"end":21996.06,"text":"如果沒有 那我們就依照行政院所提第46條草案來通過繼續審查行政院所提第48條草案那委員的部分有王振旭委員 林淑文委員 劉建國委員是46條林玉琴委員是第48條好 我們一併來討論 請行政單位說明"},{"start":22009.847,"end":22037.342,"text":"是 剛剛提到的 早有提到的委員的提案基本上部分的條次不同但是這個內容都跟這個行政院版是相同所以我們建議48條是照行政院提案通過好第48條各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有那我們就依照行政院所提第48條草案來通過好"},{"start":22039.605,"end":22049.172,"text":"那繼續審查行政院所提第49條那委員王正旭 委員林淑芬還有委員劉建國所提49條好 我們一邊來討論請行政大會說明"},{"start":22062.15,"end":22077.083,"text":"是目前委員所提案的內容都跟行政院版一致所以第49條建議照行政院提案通過好各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就依照行政院所提第49條才能通過那繼續審查"},{"start":22087.147,"end":22113.546,"text":"第50條是有兩位委員就不在現場 我們就不予不予採納然後繼續審查院版所提草案第51條然後委員有王振旭林淑芬劉建國好 我們就一併沒有"},{"start":22115.23,"end":22126.296,"text":"好 王委員 王一鳴委員也有提這另外一條 對 另外一邊啦 對不起好 謝謝 好 那我們一邊來討論"},{"start":22142.526,"end":22171.65,"text":"是 現在委員所提的版本 內容基本上跟行政院版都一致那我們第51條建議照行政院提案通過各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們第51條草案就依照行政院版本來通過繼續審查第51條之一另有王振興委員 林淑穩委員還有柳建國委員"},{"start":22176.121,"end":22198.823,"text":"好 就這樣 我們一邊來討論請行政單位說明目前委員所提案的版本跟行政院版的內容是相同所以第51條之一建議照行政院提案通過好 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們就依照行政院所提第51條之一的草案來通過"},{"start":22200.591,"end":22227.496,"text":"繼續審查由委員提的52條人不在現場我們就不予採納還有繼續審查一樣是臺灣民眾黨提這個第55條因為不在現場我們就不予採納好好我們第一輪已經結束我們準備來進入進入第二輪要不要休息個五分鐘那裡面沒有啦我問人啦我沒問人啦"},{"start":22229.516,"end":22247.935,"text":"你們要精力一點嗎 需要嘛 他們說需要 好不好好 阿國軍盟你好不好 需要嗎你們要精力啦 你們要給他們精力一點嗎好啦 好啦 好啦 你們不要 他們不要 要緊一點 好十分鐘 五分鐘 十分鐘十分鐘啦 好 因為勞動部要求十分鐘 休息十分鐘整理一下"},{"start":22250.199,"end":22264.016,"text":"這樣子並案只要一條這樣一橫就要一條所以我們這次審了39因為還有一張嘛39張條次保留了4條123跟今天保留1條4條一共收了"},{"start":22267.222,"end":22269.243,"text":"沒有還沒有這個決議會討論17個附帶決議然後13個修正動力"},{"start":23047.173,"end":23064.457,"text":"現在開會那職業安全衛生法修正案第一輪共病案審查39條次那暨保留4條那總計13個修正動議所以我們現在就針對這保留的跟13個修正動議來繼續做討論現在就是第22條次"},{"start":23071.249,"end":23091.756,"text":"我們現在進行第22條之一 昨天保留的那個請我們的部會做說明跟委員說明 昨天22條之一的部分條文是 條文是沒有問題是在這個范雲委員提到的這個立法說明 昨天希望把這個部長昨天口頭上的說明的文字"},{"start":23092.616,"end":23116.107,"text":"錄到這個說明那我們現在已經做一個文字的調整就是說我再念一次所稱自身心健康遭受危害不予需達到實質具體的傷害程度為必要包括形成明顯敵意或惡劣之職場情境造成勞工身心健康潛在危害"},{"start":23117.067,"end":23128.211,"text":"英文字就是hazard 昨天有提到是工作環境這個部分我們有打黃色底的這個部分這個文字那這個文字也有送給那個范雲委員辦公室這邊有確認嗎那其他委員有沒有意見玉敏委員有意見嗎沒有 那那個淑香委員"},{"start":23151.621,"end":23168.306,"text":"但是我一定要講因為從這裡從范雲委員昨天的版本然後我就去看這個校園霸凌就發現了這個校園霸凌真的是如果我們這個法過了以後校園霸凌的定義真的要改一下校園霸凌它是要導致這個身心這個"},{"start":23170.526,"end":23195.615,"text":"受傷而且還要造成還有那個環境怎麼樣兩個構成要件環境也要受影響然後身心也要具體受傷才可以所以他們那個他的門檻很高啊所以幸好我們昨天把他限縮在這裡那而且不以具體的受傷為要件這樣子是好的啦我是說從這裡來看校園霸凌那一環你們要去修一下"},{"start":23196.954,"end":23216.656,"text":"好那是不是如果沒有其他意見的話那我們就建議照剛才我們的好院的好意見通過建議照行政院提案通過那接下來22條之二"},{"start":23220.664,"end":23245.032,"text":"請我們的部位做說明目前我們看到王玉民委員跟劉建國委員的這個針對四十二條之二的修正動議二十二不好意思二十二條之二的修正動議那這個部分我們行政機關這邊是同意照這個王玉民委員跟劉建國委員的修正意通過什麼二十二之二"},{"start":23246.98,"end":23269.289,"text":"所以你現在是處理了一個是利益迴避啊然後一個是說違反準則要重新調查啊我剛才講的那些股票公開發行公司證交法第十四支五條那裡面還界定如果你你這裡的準你我們會定準則但是處理程序是交給事業單位自行訂定"},{"start":23271.556,"end":23284.864,"text":"處理案申付程序由事業單位自行訂定在這種狀況裡面如果事業單位訂定了違反政交法第十四支五條的話那還那要不要受十四支五條去牽制"},{"start":23286.44,"end":23302.563,"text":"所以我再講一下因為很多人不知道這件事情我現在已經不是講母公司對子公司的這個支配和控制我現在發現說這個東西其實是在股票公開發行的公司都會產生的問題"},{"start":23303.644,"end":23323.316,"text":"政交法十四支五條裡面第一項第四款講到涉及董事的自身的利害關係的事項通通要交給審計委員會去審議或者是要經他全而且還要經他全體成員二分之一以上同意還要經董事會決議"},{"start":23325.097,"end":23346.26,"text":"那現在會產生一個問題什麼叫做涉及董事自身利害關係的事項如果望聞生意他最廣泛的就是跟董事有關的只要董事霸凌也是這樣就是要交給審計委員會然後再提交董事會同意這個是這樣子但是法院上一般通案上的見解是講"},{"start":23347.481,"end":23366.871,"text":"直接增加或减损直接就是那个会议的开会对董事个人具体的权利义务关系开完会以后会产生变动的权利义务关系会产生变动的才叫做涉及董事的自身的利害关系的事项"},{"start":23367.771,"end":23385.11,"text":"那我现在要讲这个是说如果照我们的准则公司定了一个处理霸凌的这个程序或者是这个人员组成的规范那要不要强制要符合14支5条政交法要不要强制"},{"start":23385.911,"end":23400.827,"text":"那你准則要不要定那如果我們是特別法我們為什麼還要在那裡大家都知道公司治理不是只有母公司對子公司一般股票公開發行公司很容易有公司治理上"},{"start":23404.11,"end":23419.32,"text":"這個權力上的爭執第一個審計委員會如果不做成決議擱置在那裡或者是他做成決議到董事會還要決議董事會不決議或者是這個調查結果他們不認同要叫你再重啟調查那怎麼辦"},{"start":23420.603,"end":23445.636,"text":"所以这个事情我们在这里讲说你要解决这个事情是不无可能啊全台湾只要是股票公开发行的公司通通都会遇到这个问题啊所以我才说那我们要把我们职安法的特别法的属性要标示出来啊如果你没有排除政交法十四支五条的适用你至少要把职安法特别法"},{"start":23446.656,"end":23472.428,"text":"比他们金融监管的这个政交法还要更上位的话没有标示出来那我们在法律上就没完没了我们整个霸凌的处理程序可能要搁在那里变成角力了如果变成一个角力权力斗争的角力那也是一件麻烦的事情所以一般这个东西"},{"start":23473.413,"end":23489.788,"text":"你調查結果出來他們開會有直接減損或直接增加董事自身的權利事項嗎沒有嘛又不是說董事自身直接增加他的權利事項我要董事給我加薪我要加薪送審紀委員會去討論"},{"start":23491.629,"end":23508.499,"text":"这个董事做了什么事情我不准他来开会送审计委员会开会这叫直接增加或减损这个董事个人的具体的权利义务涉及到他个人在公司里面的权利义务的变动才需要符合这个政交法14支5条"},{"start":23509.349,"end":23529.927,"text":"但是如果大家大聲說這只是法院的一般通案間接但廣義的來講跟我董事我董事霸凌別人這個就要送審計委員會那怎麼辦沒完沒了所以我們才在這裡說要解決這個問題的話是不是我們要至少要把我們特別法要標示出來"},{"start":23530.848,"end":23559.827,"text":"只要符合我們職安法的這個你勞動部定的準則定出來的處理事項通通都是照這個事項來辦就可以了不需要再去跑審計委員會不需要再經董事會決議萬一董事會說你這個調查不公給我重新調查怎麼辦萬一審計委員會說你這個這樣講法要改你回去重新調查那你怎麼辦所以不能卡在這裡也不能這樣子"},{"start":23561.108,"end":23582.782,"text":"所以這個事情我認為他不是個案他絕對是未來的通案大家都想到你是覺得很簡單的職場這樣子一個處理的問題事實上職場的樣態很多啦這個事情要解決沒有解決剛才才溝通過然後你就說要照都沒有處理這個就要通過"},{"start":23590.805,"end":23602.337,"text":"這條22條之二我覺得也是蠻關鍵性的條文主要是那個調查的部分那我要先肯定勞動部他願意參採這個委員的意見當時我就主張"},{"start":23603.038,"end":23630.647,"text":"这个调查小组这个外聘成员比例不得少于二分之一他们原本是放在执法的那他现在同意可以拿到母法这一点要肯定因为我们可以看到之前劳动部自己发生的这个职场霸凌事件第一时间第一次调查的时候他其实并没有采取多数的外聘的委员那这个红部长上台之后再重启调查重启调查之后"},{"start":23631.347,"end":23654.506,"text":"用了外部的委員然後也做出了更客觀的調查報告所以我覺得這個其實是蠻關鍵的那原來在我的版本裡面呢其實還有提到說如果是政府機關的話最高負責人的時候調查小組成員應該要全部外聘因為他權力很大嘛如果你在用機關裡面所屬的人員也沒有人敢"},{"start":23655.206,"end":23676.461,"text":"敢表示意見呢那這個部分因為現在是沒有放進來那剛剛這個來溝通的時候是有說只要是政府機關我們一定都會是就通通都會是外聘那你那個你那個是在哪一個條文裡面還是你應該要在放在立法書22-3有在寫字嗎好"},{"start":23679.55,"end":23704.935,"text":"因為我原來的我原來也是放在22-3的裡面我有這個部分有寫嗎對不對你們的版本有有嗎好像沒有啊有放入立法說明嗎對啊我就說沒有啊那所以我要求應該要放進去好不好這個其實是蠻重要的避免官官相互的的一個一個提醒好不好謝謝"},{"start":23706.445,"end":23723.708,"text":"好 那請回應是 針對林委員的部分確實我們剛剛沒有回應到委員這邊剛剛跟我們溝通的時候特別提到要我們注意到這樣的一個情形就是照這個政交法第十四支五條的第四款這部分"},{"start":23724.869,"end":23746.005,"text":"涉及到董事自身利害關係之事項那這個部分我想剛剛委員有點醒我們就是說未來相關的類似的這樣的一個職場霸凌的調查處理案件當然要優先適用本法所以這個部分就是排除其他法律這個部分是不是同意我們在立法說明裡面去做補充"},{"start":23750.307,"end":23777.47,"text":"你一直說立法說明欄你要排除其他法律的適用沒有母法這樣子行嗎不用不需要法律保留原則嗎你要排除別人的法律你只放那個立法說明欄母法條文沒有這些文字怎麼可能這個不是影響到人民的權這是排除其他法律沒有放在母法怎麼可以"},{"start":23778.691,"end":23803.519,"text":"應該是講說如果其他法律應該是講說相對其他法律規範本法這個有優先適用優先適用本法之規定類似這樣放在母法那你要舉例舉例你再放在這個立法說明欄在母法的在文字裡面一定要有我們"},{"start":23805.928,"end":23822.223,"text":"如果與其他法律有這個也不是漢格反正要優先適用本法那要看要怎麼文字你要排除其他法律適用怎麼可以不在母法文字裡面放進去這太愉悅了"},{"start":23824.7,"end":23833.57,"text":"來請部長回應因為我們沒有非常熟悉那個政教法14.5可不可以請法務部確認一下那個法效"},{"start":23840.848,"end":23859.114,"text":"不是 我們在這裡第一個要優先確定我們是不是特別法我們相對其他的這個金融監督的或是其他這個商業法規法律上的規定的我們是不是特別法特別法本來就優先 它的優先性要被標示出來那麥工 你要麥工講 對不起"},{"start":23866.624,"end":23888.968,"text":"跟主席跟各位委員報告因為可以理解那個委員考慮的那個點但是這個可能那個是每個個案可能都不一樣的狀況這個要怎麼樣去認定這個不是不要談個案這個完全跟個案無關這個只要是股票公開發行公司通通都會適用證交法應該經管會要來啦"},{"start":23894.54,"end":23920.163,"text":"但是沒關係我們就不是這樣子我們都不用管政交法我只是舉這個例子但我的意思是說我們要把與其他法律有漢格或是抵觸或者是衝突的我們要標示出職安法是霸凌這個處理的這個最優先適用這個法律的屬性要標示出來就好了這個文字要出來啊本來也就是這樣子啊"},{"start":23920.983,"end":23946.443,"text":"來 請部長回應因為現在金管會沒有在現場我不是那麼趕一下子就把這樣子的文字直接落在魔法裡面我是建議這一條可以先通過你講的那個不見得要放在這一條這個一定是在這裡的啦這條嗎 你剛剛不是說在某一個地方可以去揭露沒有沒有 這一定是在這裡因為這裡在講的是"},{"start":23950.064,"end":23960.434,"text":"處理這裡是在講第一之一是講定義第二是講處理的程序而處理的程序就是會涉及到證交法裡面這個"},{"start":23962.815,"end":23982.84,"text":"14支5條的跟他漢格的地方紫安法要優先你要的是優先反正涉及霸凌事件者一律以本法最優先適用本法規範為最優先適用我的意思是說因為現在因為這個文字涉及到政交法所以"},{"start":23983.58,"end":24008.496,"text":"如果是写在这个没有啦我们这个文字没有涉及到政教法我们的法律里面母法里面不会写到政教法这样的字眼那刚刚他那个是立法说明栏啦他刚刚那个是立法说明栏林委员你要的效果是说任何的霸凌事就是职场霸凌事件就是要优先适用职安法的霸凌专章"},{"start":24009.936,"end":24031.363,"text":"來處理不能就是其他有其他是在凌駕這個之上的那這個我覺得跟22條之二是不是放在這邊不一定妳要的是那個效果我們在講的就是處理程序因為正教法14之五談的就是程序再來就是說我要請教就是說我們這個最後一項本來的最後一項"},{"start":24032.703,"end":24061.559,"text":"現在是倒數第二項你就是說這個一定規模的這個企業應該訂出教育訓練 申訴管道 處理程序這些需不需要框定他要報目的事業主管機關報那個地方政府報備否則的話今天報的說我的規定是這樣子明天再改改的變這樣子然後都不用報到地方政府然後他隨便他改來改去"},{"start":24063.322,"end":24089.109,"text":"就是他在調查你知道我們如果最高負責人去涉及霸凌是地方政府調查那地方政府我們訂了這個處理程序了這個是第三款22-3啦22-2是講這個只要不是最高負責人一般公司裡面遇到的我們就交給企業自行去處理和調查"},{"start":24089.989,"end":24119.221,"text":"而企業處理調查是依據他們本來就必須要訂定的這一個調查處理程序去調查還有申付等等程序那這個程序一個企業會不會改來改去不可能那需不需要訂出來以後要不要送到地方政府去備查以免發生爭執我的版本是這樣子沒有我們7月又開了又改了"},{"start":24120.445,"end":24131.236,"text":"就該來該去怎麼想也不可能會有這樣的狀況要不要送地方政府備查因為你只是叫他自己訂自己管"},{"start":24132.054,"end":24149.562,"text":"是 跟委員說明那這個部分它怎麼訂還是要依照我們所發布的準則所以它的再怎麼改內部再怎麼修它還是要依照準則裡面所規定的事項去訂那如果沒有依照準則在申訴案或是它我們去勞檢發現的話它就違反規定"},{"start":24151.403,"end":24163.577,"text":"有可能在比例上會調整或者是說代表上要調整他還是符合準則但是他是變動來變動去的但是他會有可能會因此產生增值"},{"start":24165.635,"end":24194.203,"text":"这个在比较大的公司可能都因为都是比较大的公司可能会因为就算报地方政府他也可以改那所以意思是说基本上就会会有一个准则那他定这些教育训练等等等这些事情该定可是他还是要符合准则他如果不符合准则的话就可以开罚所以抓的那个管制点或者是管理点基本上是在准则上不一定是抓在一定要报备因为他报备他也可以改啊"},{"start":24194.363,"end":24216.748,"text":"好吧隨便這個我就不堅持但是我剛剛講的是說我們這個法特別法要優先適用然後其他法律不可以不可以我的意思是說你不可我們要盡量讓這個事情越單純越好不要在那裡到時候變成吵架沒有辦法有一個調查結果"},{"start":24219.062,"end":24247.931,"text":"我跟那個主席還有委員報告就我的了解14條政交法14條之五的第一項的第四款涉及董事自身利害關係事項的確有可能是董事是霸凌的行為人到時候公司對他的處置是有可能是要經過審計委員會屬於他的自身利害事項譬如說他可能降職"},{"start":24248.931,"end":24268.539,"text":"可能會減少報酬這些都是有可能的但是呢因為處理職場霸凌這一件事情這可能有兩個層面因為有的董事他有負責人的身份如果他有負責人的身份的話這個霸凌已經外部化所以地方政府處理的這個調查結果報告"},{"start":24272.36,"end":24291.625,"text":"絕對優先於公司的處理程序這沒有問題已經外部那如果這個董事不是最高負責人在他的內部處理的時候因為我們的霸凌專章有特別的規定因為大家可以看到14條之五自身利害事項是一個很籠統的規定是個範圍不確定一定要到"},{"start":24294.506,"end":24319.609,"text":"他這個董事個案的情況的時候才會提審計委員會所以在我們霸凌專章有特別規定的時候他沒有為一個很籠統具體特定的規定的時候一定是優先適用於我們職業安全衛生法的22條之一之二這個部分我覺得應該是我們是不是可以請"},{"start":24320.31,"end":24349.129,"text":"林委員同意我們 我們放在這個說明欄也不只十四條不是啊不是十四條之五不是啊你都覺得是這樣子就會導致這樣子他們沒有規定對於所謂的自身 董事自身的權利這個利害關係事項他沒有規定就是就是照我們的不會 那晚假沒有一個公司 上市公司要股票發行公開發行公司是怎樣常常都要晚來晚去"},{"start":24350.009,"end":24357.096,"text":"而且你講對了但是也講錯了一部分這個只是一個調查結果他會不會這樣子減少報酬並不是由這個調查結果來決定的"},{"start":24362.183,"end":24387.213,"text":"調查結果出來後他內部要怎麼懲處他還要另外去開董事會另外開董事會那一次才會決定他是不是降職或減少報酬而我們在談的是調查結果這一次調查結果這一次還也是要交給董事會和審計委員會去決定嗎那個是角力的場合所以我的意思是說我們應該是讓"},{"start":24389.815,"end":24408.413,"text":"這個我不曉得你們也可以談談看你認為是應該要經董事會去決議嗎整個調查結果還是本來就要由經營經營的這個實際經營的這個行政部門自行去處理我們要先釐清這個吧一個公司的行政部門去處理調查"},{"start":24410.801,"end":24427.566,"text":"這個霸凌或者是應該要交給董事會去決議調查怎麼調查這個要思考吧這個已經不是個案這絕對是制度面的問題但是個案上也已經有發生問題"},{"start":24429.81,"end":24446.511,"text":"我跟委員報告就是企業他在處理這個霸凌申訴事件的時候他一定會依照我們的授權的辦法他會先有一個處理霸凌的流程這個流程也一定可能在公司上面他也會報他的董事會或相關的"},{"start":24447.692,"end":24465.123,"text":"全責機關通過所以這個流程董事會應該都是認可的啦的確是像林委員講的涉及到這個董事自身利害關係的時候他有一個特別的機制去處理那在這個法裡面我們抓的就是你的處理流程符合我們的準則規定"},{"start":24466.224,"end":24481.582,"text":"但是我们有规定它期限因为对申诉案件来说雇主一定要及时处理也就是说只要你内部的流程不管你怎么做你必须要在期限内完成因为整个公司的治理也可能很复杂"},{"start":24482.423,"end":24504.481,"text":"他有其他的人事決策審計決策都有可能但是我們規範的就是說你只要在期限內處理而且沒有影響你原來調查小組的這個結論結果的話其他的部分依照你公司治理還有相關的金融法規或是你產業的特殊法規去處理那都沒有問題"},{"start":24505.402,"end":24533.559,"text":"所以我們抓了你的處理的程序步驟你的調查成員還有你的處理時效還有應該注意到的一些原則所以我們處理的是這樣基本上會跟他們公司治理或是金融治理上面會有一些不一樣的地方但是有可能會涉及所以我們是覺得說林委員的考慮是有可能會涉及到的但基本上他一定要按照我們這個霸凌專章的流程來走"},{"start":24537.359,"end":24559.973,"text":"好來現在我們在講就是說人家這個調查的程序他顯然要經過董事會通過所以我們霸凌處理程序就是這樣子了但是呢他會他不會不一定會有調查結果為什麼因為執政交法就是這樣規定你要交給審計委員會二分之一同意然後還在報董事會通過"},{"start":24562.004,"end":24582.432,"text":"審計委員會 董事會通過才會有調查結果結果他們如果在那裡玩假拿來的調查結果沒有調查結果沒關係你說沒關係你們有處分現在是有處分不好啊 處分是罰公司可是你不會有調查結果當事人的權益 當事人的這個調查結果這個事實的發現誰要來保障他們"},{"start":24587.455,"end":24616.228,"text":"就是说你去处分他你怎么一直拖延都没有出来但我就是没有出来所以才说我们要的是什么我们要的是处罚他吗我们要的是要调查结果不是吗那个署分委员那有没有你建议怎么修订就我觉得我们可能会不会有一个具体的文字或者在老实说我很诚实的说我也不知道本来我的意思是说我们是不是要"},{"start":24617.909,"end":24636.168,"text":"職場霸凌就這個優先以本法規定優先這個是用本法規定這樣子或者是說排除排除其他法律我們要優先以這個處理程序為準這樣子不應該不應該受我們這個特別法為什麼還要讓這個金融"},{"start":24637.009,"end":24654.885,"text":"金融的這個法律然後來告訴我們說這個全部都要照我董事會 照我審計委員會調查審計委員會說這調查要改改的 還要重新調查現在其實還有一個法律還有一個法律我沒有講出來其實還有另外一個法律是"},{"start":24657.312,"end":24671.617,"text":"監控公司對母公司對子公司擁有絕對的監督權而且是義務而這個義務就是那你子公司的調查不算調查要母公司說了算其實是人家告訴我有這個規範我們都以為說"},{"start":24673.678,"end":24693.292,"text":"子公司是子公司 獨立的法人有一個調查報告母公司有一個母公司但是不 金控公司有特別規定特別規定是說金母公司對子公司有絕對的監督權利你連發一個新聞記者會的稿子都不可以全部都要經由我母公司所以你的調查報告不被採認"},{"start":24695.173,"end":24722.512,"text":"這個問題我其實我不想要講因為這是一個個案而且是一個正在玩gay的正在吵架的個案但是我是從這個個案我發現我們制度面我們如果迴避了這一個問題我們能想像的這個霸凌就是那樣子其實在大的公司案體制裡面的霸凌如果是真的在大家都這樣子玩下去有可能你只能處理的是那個受僱者啊受僱者之間的霸凌啊"},{"start":24723.012,"end":24745.012,"text":"真正的經營者 董事涉及的你是沒有辦法 沒辦法他的也有可能是這樣子所以在制度面要怎麼樣討論這個我覺得還可以 蠻可以討論的來 要保留還是要再討論一下可以啦 請歡迎委員"},{"start":24747.72,"end":24768.205,"text":"我不知道說我們上次在那個霸凌定義的時候都有提到就是說事業單位人員利用職務或權勢關係等是不是都已經處理到就是平行跟各種什麼董監事會這部分以我來看的話應該有包含那因為剛剛大家討論到說這個到底是特別法或是"},{"start":24769.745,"end":24783.199,"text":"所謂的一般法我剛看了我們那個第一條他是說為終止職業災害為防止職業災害保障工作者安全及健康特制定本法其他法律有特別規定者從其規定"},{"start":24785.39,"end":24809.6,"text":"好然后第四条又说本法适用于各业但因事业规模性质及风险等因素中央主管机关得指定公告其适用本法之部分规定所以第四条算是给中央主管机关中央是劳动部很大的权利所以我是觉得好像不需要去关心到金融相关法规而是看中央主管机关的态度啊"},{"start":24810.26,"end":24830.088,"text":"这是这一个那回来就是我们刚现在在讨论的22之2那我是不知道要不要保留那我一并把上次讲过的部分有些是跟别的委员一样就是申付里面我觉得如果要放进去的话那个申付程序中外部委员我的版本是主张不得少于三分之二"},{"start":24830.888,"end":24857.764,"text":"那还有被霸凌者的支持服务希望能够比照就是性别工作平等法谈到的资商法律咨询等那另外就是记录给当事人知悉因为我刚看到洪孟凯有一个附带决议那我也有一个附带决议那不知道这个部分就是劳动部会不会接受放到条文中那还是觉得要放在执法的话那我就会用附带决议那这些也请劳动部可以回应谢谢"},{"start":24859.392,"end":24884.245,"text":"謝謝范委員 范委員剛剛提的那個部分目前范委員的附帶決議這邊我們都同意接受就用附帶決議來處理那那個程序就是那個二分之一的部分呢申付的程序要不要入法的部分呢跟委員報告目前那個部分也是在執法處理我們會在執法裡面去去明定因為"},{"start":24888.882,"end":24909.534,"text":"經過范委員這樣講我突然想到第一條第一條講的是為了防止職災保障工作者安全健康特制定本法其他法律有特別規定者從其規定那這紫色的意思是什麼其他法律有規定者從其規定那是什麼"},{"start":24912.082,"end":24937.377,"text":"跟委員說明那個其他那個是過去以來在勞動部就有解釋我們大家立法的體力都會加這一句是安全衛生事項對 安全衛生事項有特別規定所以那你這一條要修啊安全衛生事項只有限定於安全衛生事項其他法律有特別規定則從其規定有時候我們立法體力就是要抄來抄去這樣就放進去你沒有限縮在安全衛生事項我也可以擴大解釋啊"},{"start":24939.577,"end":24952.59,"text":"其他法律有規定者我們的證交法有規定的話適用這個證交法規定雖然我們都覺得 理所當然一定是安全衛生事項可是那如果要廢是不一定的"},{"start":24958.246,"end":24975.743,"text":"我們現在在講的都是全部都適用這個職安衛法全部都是適用沒有問題現在講的是處理程序22之2我們就是卡在處理程序會跟其他的法律包括我剛剛講的金控業的特別法還包括政交法來 市長要回應來 副市長"},{"start":24980.753,"end":25009.114,"text":"跟各位委員報告因為我們那個第一條除其他法律另有規定者從其規定目前就職業安全跟霸凌申訴的話只有公務人員保障法另有規定外我們就會優先適用公務人員保障法的規定其他的部分都會回到治安法的規定也就是說現在的行政法規可能會碰觸到的"},{"start":25009.794,"end":25037.228,"text":"情況很多 部分重疊啦但是因為我們的職業安全衛生事項除非他專門是規定職業安全衛生事項或者是霸凌申訴調查處理程序否則的話 職安法一定會在其他的法規面前的話是優先使用 有關於這個部分好 這樣咧要不先保留一次好 來 你要再講"},{"start":25038.376,"end":25055.277,"text":"沒有 我剛剛只是在想說那個林淑芬委員那個例子那我想到的是以性別工作平等法好像沒有聽過因為它是金融你知道相關可以就是母公司撤銷子公司它就是違反這個關於性別工作的這個特別的法律"},{"start":25056.358,"end":25076.587,"text":"我想到的是你昨天講的校園霸凌更慘昨天你去看校園霸凌的那些處理的那個準則他還要構成兩個要件要變成環境有害還要變成這個身心要具體的受損才可以構成所以難道說教育部訂這樣子我們要跟著他們這樣訂嗎性平法沒有我們就不能有嗎"},{"start":25079.213,"end":25100.52,"text":"這個不是這樣講的啦新民法沒有我們就跟著沒有可是我剛剛講的不是問題嗎應該要討論的是我剛剛講的這種問題到底會不會成為問題他明明就是肯定就是會而要怎麼處理今天在修法我們遇見的問題都看到問題了而我們在這個方面就直接視而不見不處理"},{"start":25102.287,"end":25117.783,"text":"然後到時候爭執了說你的法律就沒有規範這樣敢交代會過 對社會交代的過去嗎好啦 沒關係 那個休息分鐘啦因為這一條保留 45條會跟著保留好不好 所以你是不是 溝通一下好 謝謝 來"},{"start":25126.939,"end":25146.82,"text":"都已經審到了 談到了然後不願意面對 不願意處理要背歷史上 要背這個責任這已經發生了等一下在玩街 你已經要玩街啦不要說笑不笑 笑不笑"},{"start":25172.624,"end":25182.591,"text":"對 不然 因為我也不敢講一定有問題或一定沒問題"},{"start":25196.573,"end":25200.599,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25212.981,"end":25231.095,"text":"因為你要標示說我們的優先性哪有放在母法裡面這樣就退了"},{"start":25236.38,"end":25247.082,"text":"證交法就是證交所在處理的先問他一下"},{"start":25263.834,"end":25270.823,"text":"你問一下他有沒有窗口可以問一下"},{"start":25294.428,"end":25321.372,"text":"這個如果如果這個只是證券交易"},{"start":25420.376,"end":25426.419,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25453.67,"end":25454.155,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25539.94,"end":25545.946,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25592.052,"end":25618.311,"text":"打你的電話好不好我們跟金管會連都不像不過金管會連會有那個保障法會有所以"},{"start":25621.613,"end":25622.254,"text":"我們現在就是確認"},{"start":25731.352,"end":25735.933,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":25754.974,"end":25771.135,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":25782.657,"end":25790.267,"text":"但是没关系啊,因为这个,这个要参会,参会,参会,参会,参会,参会"},{"start":25796.071,"end":25811.836,"text":"好 好 好"},{"start":25833.916,"end":25836.8,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":25859.77,"end":25888.074,"text":"但是他不同的跟我說這個昨天都已經先送到我家了但是我原本看起來他還沒有發展對對拿到他產品就是他的一陣子"},{"start":25900.743,"end":25906.445,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25918.897,"end":25940.452,"text":"相關規定的規定 一定的地圖對 如果有違反法律規範的相關規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定"},{"start":25947.732,"end":25966.545,"text":"他是說其他法律剛剛那句話怎麼講福金融監管相關法律福金融監管相關不是不是不是你要寫在後面其他法律"},{"start":25967.304,"end":25987.937,"text":"有相關事項是規範的那個帽子戴在前面其他法律有相關事項是規範時第一個如拿下來法律有相關事項是規範時相關事項是規範時是規範時如規範時然後如後面如"},{"start":25997.489,"end":26023.481,"text":"金融監管相關法律金融規範相關法規然後您優先適用本法規定這樣子對 這樣可以嗎對 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":26033.398,"end":26041.55,"text":"中間 中間的管理之間 整個 之間的霸凌 那容易啊不對 經營者要處理不容易的 總是的那個霸凌打老虎網 沒那麼容易"},{"start":26112.769,"end":26114.771,"text":"這樣子其實是沒有辦法解決的"},{"start":26117.214,"end":26146.173,"text":"優先適用但是他不適用也不處理就只有罰公司罰公司又不是罰那個霸凌人家的股東董事加害者沒有被處分到加害者一樣不會被處罰他罰的是整個公司損及的是所有股東的權益又不是他個人所以其實這樣子其實真的是不太好"},{"start":26154.701,"end":26178.336,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26182.134,"end":26191.189,"text":"如果放鬆不喜歡就說誰喜歡我都不喜歡你是說你喜歡我啦我說你喜歡我我不是那種喜歡就別再換了"},{"start":26195.367,"end":26220.042,"text":"太壞了 處理性很差現在是不敢動了但是我覺得這應該講說 其他法律如果處理對 整個處理的程序 要講處理的程序有任何其他法律的錯誤還有這種小朋友有現實的話 應該用過研究"},{"start":26225.325,"end":26238.169,"text":"現在法律有相關規則規範還是優先使用法律"},{"start":26250.981,"end":26277.978,"text":"來 繼續開會"},{"start":26281.359,"end":26284.112,"text":"請刑事單位在座說明22條之二怎麼修"},{"start":26286.727,"end":26314.656,"text":"是 剛剛休息時間跟委員溝通現在是條文沒有修是在這個第二二十一章的章的說明章的說明欄裡面增加第六項文字是針對適用本法職場霸凌事件之申訴調查處理程序及處置規定其他法律有相關事項之規範時如金融監管相關法規"},{"start":26316.243,"end":26332.934,"text":"應優先適用本法之規定第二章的章名裡面的立法說明裡面加註這些對不對是這樣嗎好對不對是第二章的章名"},{"start":26336.587,"end":26364.531,"text":"二十一章 不好意思 二十一章第二章之一啦第二章之一的章名說明欄裡面加上第六項對不對是好那各位有沒有其他意見汪參事可以嗎我可以留下一點歷史紀錄就好了嗎留啊留啊"},{"start":26365.502,"end":26388.971,"text":"我的發言是這樣子的因為最後這個狀況可能會變成說這些霸凌事件如果公司內大公司裡面要處分一個中階的管理員對勞工對其他職員的這個霸凌是很容易的但如果涉及到股東就是所謂的董事他去這個霸凌其他的"},{"start":26390.672,"end":26412.435,"text":"的受雇者的話這個處理上其實是真的很多的困難在那裡那這種狀況有可能就是說因為肇政交法14之5條的這個規範他會卡在這個審計委員會或是卡在董事會無法無法提出一個調查結果報告出來"},{"start":26413.456,"end":26438.616,"text":"那但是我們知道就是說我們的準則會定一個限期你要提出報告如果沒有限期提出報告要處分可是大家都知道這個處分處分的是事業單位所以那個霸凌別人的股東並不會得到處分那就對被霸凌的人要的是一個調查報告他可能也要不到他要的個人要的這個公平他得不到一個調查報告"},{"start":26440.277,"end":26452.565,"text":"但是因為大家的意見這樣子我是勉為其難只能暫時先暫時被迫接受你怎麼可以被迫接受洪部長這麼樣的惡詞"},{"start":26464.951,"end":26478.981,"text":"不然你講說你被迫接受這個這樣我跟各位報告各位林委員他當然有相關的一些經驗跟接受到一些訊息但有時候法律我們當立法者基本上可以修訂"},{"start":26480.402,"end":26497.207,"text":"還有制定新華的過程裡面當然可以面面俱到一步到位是最好但是有時候坦白講也不是就可以馬上一觸即成那再來就是說相對的一些像盧霸凌就是我們的人權受到侵害的情況之下坦白說"},{"start":26500.248,"end":26519.101,"text":"我是覺得有相關的法律的規範基本上都足以來保障我們相關的這個受到權力侵害的這樣的一個對象那當然我們可以透過這次的展覽裡面去凸顯林淑穩委員所提的問題那當然是最好不過的然後當然她也接受可以在立法"},{"start":26519.981,"end":26543.16,"text":"在說明裡面去說優於這個金融相關的一些法規我覺得當然這是一個正向啦那基本上沒有寫他當人權受到侵害的情況之下這些原本在台灣的民主法制的國家裡面就應該是優先被保障的對象好 簡單就這樣說明 謝謝大家那這個就沒有問題我們就照這樣來通過了 好不好那22條之2的內容"},{"start":26545.785,"end":26570.258,"text":"一樣是照建議第二十二條之二照王玉民委員及劉建國委員修正動議通過各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有那就照行政單位這樣的說明照王玉民委員所提的二十二條之二跟劉建國委員所提的修正動議通過繼續審來處理保留第二十二條之三"},{"start":26578.167,"end":26602.762,"text":"22條13現在沒有修正動議 建議照行政院提案通過原本沒有修正動議沒有嗎原本有修正動議沒有新的修正動議修2跟修6兩岸修6是都不在 那就沒有 對不起 沒有"},{"start":26604.827,"end":26629.245,"text":"好 22條之3就照行政院所提的草案來通過那我們繼續處理保留條文是第45條來 請說明是 第45條建議照王育民委員及劉建國委員修正動議通過"},{"start":26630.916,"end":26656.712,"text":"好 各位委員不好意思 還有一個王振旭等23人提案好就依照王振旭委員 還有王玉美委員還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議通過好 謝謝好那我們第二輪已經結束 已經處理完畢現在來處理附帶決議既有持久案請一併宣讀"},{"start":26657.796,"end":26685.698,"text":"第一案要求勞動部應於附屬法規明確規定外部調查人員之利益迴避與倫理相關規範且對於事業單位所通報之職場霸凌案件應每年統計分析並對外公開結果令針對外部第三方不法侵害防治應與職安法相關附屬法規及指引強化雇主應採行措施以維護勞工身心健康提案人委員黃振旭"},{"start":26686.439,"end":26690.114,"text":"連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第二案"},{"start":26691.3,"end":26716.559,"text":"要求勞動部應檢討第22條授權訂定之執法除現有醫師 醫護人員 心理師 職能治療師及物理治療師外將公共衛生施納為勞工健康服務人員之範圍以強化事業單位之職場健康風險預防及勞工健康保障提案人委員王正旭 連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第三案"},{"start":26717.379,"end":26731.8,"text":"要求勞動部對於事業單位通報之資訊應進行統計分析每年度並應公開相關統計分析結果提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭 林月琴第四案"},{"start":26732.782,"end":26750.464,"text":"為避免調查流於刑事甚至形同資方主導要求勞動部與附屬法規明定外部調查人員應符合利益迴避之相關規定落實保障勞工權益提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭 林月琴"},{"start":26751.425,"end":26771.738,"text":"第五案 為維護當事人之權益 原要求勞動部於附屬法規 應明定調查報告含事實認定之理由及處理結果 且應提供與當事人若僱主未提供 應依法禁與裁罰提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王振旭 林月琴"},{"start":26772.839,"end":26791.753,"text":"第六案 勞動部應立即盤點需配合增訂或修正之附屬法規與行政規則廣納有關機關、團體及學者、專家等各界意見緊迫進行相關法令之嚴定、刮鬍修並辦理修法說明會向各界廣為宣導"},{"start":26792.674,"end":26820.287,"text":"原要求勞動部應於職安法公布後半年內完成相關附屬法規之修正或訂定提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王正旭 林月琴第七案 要求勞動部立即研議修正相關法令以保障勞工的病假權並提出書面報告送交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王正旭 林月琴"},{"start":26821.147,"end":26835.648,"text":"第八案 要求勞動部一 承諾將於《勞動基準法》或相關法規中明定普通傷病假部分天數之保障機制並明文規範勞工因為普通傷害疾病或生理原因"},{"start":26836.169,"end":26857.699,"text":"必須治療或休養而請假時雇主不得對勞工有相應之不利之處分及待遇二 全面檢討現行勞工請假制度包括強化勞工請特休之保障以及禁止勞工因請特休而被雇主不利益對待的規範三 應於三個月內完成相關制度改革"},{"start":26858.419,"end":26876.889,"text":"整體評估並將具體改革方案包括修法草案方向或具體制度性改革措施向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員廖偉祥 陳昭芝 屠權及邱振軍 王育敏 洪孟凱第九案"},{"start":26878.857,"end":26895.43,"text":"要求中央主管机关于制定职业安全卫生法相关执法时应明定一、事业单位设置之职场霸凌调查小组外部委员不得少于全体成员二分之一且任意性别不得少于三分之一"},{"start":26896.01,"end":26919.665,"text":"二 針對不符調查結果之深附案件 應另行組成深附審查小組外部委員不得少於全體成員三分之二 且任意性別亦不得少於三分之一以避免原調查成員再度參與 確保審查之獨立性與公正性提案人 委員 劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲"},{"start":26920.785,"end":26929.629,"text":"好 下一項等一下 等一下再宣讀那個委員的座上沒有那個互代決議趕快補齊好不好對啊 對對對"},{"start":26938.339,"end":26959.915,"text":"好 繼續宣讀 趕快發下去好不好給委員要求中央主管機關應於相關規範中明定事業單位或直轄市縣市主管機關受理職場霸凌案件之協調調查申訴或申訴程序完成後應將調查報告含事實認定之理由及處理結果"},{"start":26960.575,"end":26979.445,"text":"以書面方式通知當事人含申訴人被申訴人及其所屬事業單位與雇主並明定該報告通知之期限確保當事人充分知悉結果並得以行使後續救濟權利提案人委員 劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭"},{"start":26983.027,"end":27004.358,"text":"要求主管机关于研修相关执法时应参采性别平等工作法现行规范为基础明确列举雇主应采行之立即有效纠正及补救措施包括提供或转介咨询医疗心理諮商社会福利资源法律咨询调整工作内容或场所"},{"start":27005.198,"end":27019.943,"text":"協助提起申訴等項作為雇主處理職場霸凌事件之實質指引以提升制度可執行性及勞工保護成效提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十二案"},{"start":27020.623,"end":27048.906,"text":"要求中央主管機關參照性別平等工作法第12條第5項之精神建立職場霸凌防制人才資料庫並規劃定期辦理職場霸凌防制專業人員訓練以提供各事業單位及地方主管機關調查人員之聆聘依據確保職場霸凌事件調查之公正性與專業性提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第13案"},{"start":27049.566,"end":27075.82,"text":"要求中央主管機關因依職業安全衛生法第22條之二條文授權於其指定網站每年主動公開職場霸凌案件統計資料並因依性別年齡層行業別事件性質處理進度及結果等項目分類統計與分析作為未來政策規劃與防治措施之依據提升制度透明度與社會信任"},{"start":27076.32,"end":27102.908,"text":"提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十四案要求勞動部應於修法後嚴厲相關配套措施包含提供事業單位職場霸凌處理之相關輔導及諮詢服務並擴大宣導及納入未來監督查核之重點對於中小企業之協助應考量其資源有限必要時應提供聘請外部調查人員相關補助"},{"start":27103.988,"end":27126.101,"text":"提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十五案勞動部應立即盤點需配合增訂或修正之附屬法規與行政規則廣納有關機關團體及學者專家等各界意見緊速進行相關法令之嚴定 刮鬍修並辦理修法說明會向各界廣為宣導"},{"start":27127.322,"end":27155.679,"text":"原要求勞動部應於職安法公布後半年內完成相關附屬法規之修正或訂定提案人委員林月琴連署人委員劉建國林淑芬第16案要求勞動部於4個月以內務必履行下列要求應立即以新訂法則為引全面修訂現行行政裁罰準則此基準應公開透明裁罰基準應必須具體規範"},{"start":27157.94,"end":27180.727,"text":"罰還額度與下列要素之對應關係以確保裁罰之比例原則與公正性勞動部應確保在執法或行政規則中明確訂定上訴標準方能使行政執法權責清晰有法可循並獲得社會公眾之信服提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭陳昭芝"},{"start":27181.607,"end":27196.139,"text":"第十七案要求勞動部應於四個月內參酌各級公家機關利益迴避事項規範緊速訂定具體之執行準則及明確之利益迴避範圍以徹底保障當事人之權益並杜絕爭議"},{"start":27197.6,"end":27226.07,"text":"提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王振旭 陳昭芝第十八案為有效推動所通過之修正條文要求勞動部應積極向行政院爭取必要之人力與經費並進行職安署之組織調整以強化我國職場安全健康體系建構安全且友善之工作環境提案人委員王振旭 連署人委員陳金輝 王育敏"},{"start":27226.69,"end":27254.327,"text":"第19案要求勞動部於附屬法規中除明定雇主應提供當事人書面調查報告外其內容並應在明其向中央主管機關指定網站通報之日期等相關資訊以利勞工之息提案人委員陳金輝 劉建國 王育敏 洪孟凱宣讀完畢好 謝謝19案宣讀完畢我們現在來處理第一案請問行政單位有意見"},{"start":27257.751,"end":27283.758,"text":"行政單位你怎麼一直看這邊沒有意見 沒有意見 好很好委員有無意見如果沒有 那我們就照王知事委員所提的互代決議第一案來通過 謝謝繼續處理第二案 請問行政單位有意見沒有意見 沒有意見 委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那依照王知事委員所提的互代決議第二案來通過第三案請問行政單位有意見"},{"start":27284.537,"end":27312.271,"text":"沒有意見好 各位委員有無意見沒有 那我們就照這個劉建國委員所提的附帶決議通過好 第四案請問行政單位有意見沒意見 遵照辦理好 那各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照提案委員劉建國所提的附帶決議通過好 照案通過第五案請問行政單位有意見"},{"start":27313.243,"end":27337.423,"text":"沒有意見 尊重辦理 委員有無意見沒有 那我們就照提案委員所提的負債決議通過 照案通過好 第六案請問行政黨員有意見沒有意見 好那個 請問委員有意見沒有 那我們就照案通過第七案 請問行政黨員有意見沒有意見 我有意見"},{"start":27338.922,"end":27343.552,"text":"我要自己修正 要求勞動部立即研議應於兩個月內"},{"start":27347.523,"end":27372.981,"text":"好不好 我想這一件就是在特別提到第一個長榮的請假的事件第二個也很多的公衛有反應只要提出請假就不利於對待的情況持續發生甚至於有的還會拐個彎就是他可以提出請假但是又拼又明定不能前一天請病假這生病有這樣拼的也很奇怪所以是不是"},{"start":27375.359,"end":27402.271,"text":"可以來同意兩個月內來立即來做出這樣的一個相關的一個法規的一個研議委員你現在想的那個文字是要求勞動部兩個月內研議修正相關法令是這樣嗎兩個月應該是可以可以嗎OK好謝謝好各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":27403.953,"end":27416.735,"text":"好 那第七案就照這個就修正通過 好 謝謝因為這案你還是要趕啦 真的啦福爾社會的期待啦 謝謝第八案請問行政單位有意見"},{"start":27419.842,"end":27444.611,"text":"第八案在那個那個原詞要求勞動部然後第一句 第一句話依承諾於勞動基準法或相關法規中逗號那這邊還是寫明定 那昨天其實有跟紅委員討論 他是同意改延議好 那各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照提案通過對"},{"start":27448.55,"end":27449.43,"text":"我們繼續處理第9案 請問行政單位有意見"},{"start":27470.942,"end":27497.612,"text":"建議在第三項 第三段 職業安全衛生法目前第三段有職業安全法職業安全衛生法 文字修正就是歡迎委員所提的各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們第九案就照所提的修正通過第十案沒有意見 沒有意見 來 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 沒有 那我們就照歡迎委員所提的"},{"start":27499.011,"end":27528.133,"text":"照案通過來第十一案沒有意見也沒有意見來各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過文字要做修正對不起因參載性別平等工作法不是性別工作平等法那我們就修正後通過第十二案沒有意見"},{"start":27529.349,"end":27553.183,"text":"各位有沒有其他意見沒有就照樣通過第十三案性別第三段跟第四段第十二十二那我們就文字修正這個照理講他不應該發生這種錯這應該不是你的問題是你無聊的問題"},{"start":27559.81,"end":27588.873,"text":"好那個木鳥死定了好我們就照文字章修正後通過好謝謝來繼續處理第13案沒有意見沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有好我們就照案通過繼續處理第14案沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過第15案沒有意見"},{"start":27589.653,"end":27617.836,"text":"各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就照案通過第十六案沒有意見好各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過繼續處理第十七案沒有意見這針對利益迴避的事情有準則部長這四個月內可以吧應該沒問題吧"},{"start":27619.893,"end":27642.17,"text":"還是太久了跟委員報告因為剛剛的一個附帶決議我們相關附屬法規是在六個半年內要定出來所以現在配合附屬法規所以OK啦 越快越好嘛對不對好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就召喚通過繼續處理第18案沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就召喚通過"},{"start":27643.717,"end":27661.961,"text":"繼續處理第19案沒有意見各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就照案通過 謝謝其實部隊決議是大家都知道了不過還是一個紀錄的一個紀錄的一個確認啦那做一下決議"},{"start":27672.293,"end":27701.027,"text":"職業安全衛生法部分調整修正查案等31案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時有留召集委員劉建國補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商好不需要不需交由黨團協商那本法案如有援引條次法制用語調整授權議事人員調整那相關的立法說明"},{"start":27702.19,"end":27708.254,"text":"授權行政單位提供本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":27738.941,"end":27752.352,"text":"好,現在上天"}]}},{"id":"16995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16995","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddeb9b513302bbc70342a6346f1e820790c15c146824155546c4762c482447eb4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月27日、29日及30日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-30T08:34:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T13:29:00+08:00","duration":17672,"影片長度":"04:54:32","委員發言時間":"08:34:28 - 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交通部 觀光署積極於國際市場行銷 飲客來台旅客市場穩健成長 初估"},{"start":1822.446,"end":1838.139,"text":"今年1到9月來台旅客超過605萬人次較去年同期成長9%其中日本旅客成長12%較去年提早一個月突破百萬人次中國大陸部分成長62% 美加成長10%及菲律賓成長35%即將突破疫情前新高"},{"start":1846.466,"end":1864.74,"text":"顯見來臺人次呈現穩步提升李樹葉歇業缺工情形振興改善措施為協助李樹葉舒緩缺工情形 交通部觀光署以媒合國人優先就業 鼓勵業者提高薪資待遇待遇吸引民眾投入李樹葉的意願"},{"start":1866.297,"end":1883.227,"text":"也積極與勞動部等相關部會研議放寬我國旅館業禁用外籍人力的規定以協助抒反切工問題再配合賴總統所提國家希望工程與觀光立國2030觀光造園產業等目標如何務實達成部分"},{"start":1884.948,"end":1900.161,"text":"國家希望工程是賴總統政見包括擴大社會投資減輕家庭負擔創新經濟智慧國家綠色成長與2050近鄰轉型等八項目標其中交通部負責統籌創新經濟智慧國家"},{"start":1903.604,"end":1923.596,"text":"之人本交通便捷臺灣方案及厚實軟實力打造國家品牌之觀光方案說明如下在創新經濟智慧國家之人本交通便捷臺灣方案部分包含營造安全用路環境優化公共運輸系統保障移動作為權利"},{"start":1926.021,"end":1941.449,"text":"等六項工作重點 以下緊急重要執行成果及未來推動重點說明如下 在營造安全用戶環境部分 重要執行成果包括透過中央補助型計畫資源及各地方政府自籌經費"},{"start":1942.99,"end":1972.319,"text":"辦理改善行人措施 今年最新統計至8月底完成1728處入口行人安全設施改善及182.7公里人行道改善另外推動省道改善作業在114年度最新統計至9月底已經完成3850萬處的省道入口改善250處的省道入口照明設備以及63處路側的障礙物移除"},{"start":1972.859,"end":1989.856,"text":"未來將持續推動人行環境建置作業省道路口及路段改善計畫 強化整體交通運輸安全在優化公共運輸系統保障移動作為前例部分 重要的執行成果統計至今年9月底 TPAS月票累計約1822萬餘人次加值購買 累計於"},{"start":1997.659,"end":2019.579,"text":"超過13.9億人次使用 搭乘各類公共運具持續精進幸福巴士服務 全國偏鄉地區的公路運輸系統運輸涵蓋率達95%以上 協助各縣市推動市區公共公車電動化投入營運及已核定補助打造中的車輛共計4,021輛"},{"start":2023.682,"end":2045.791,"text":"市區公車電動化比例為38.5%未來持續精進TPAS的政策推動公路公共運輸永續及交通平權計畫並持續協助各縣市推動電動公車其能在2030年市區公車全面電動化發展以及推動幸福巴士服務升級等"},{"start":2047.447,"end":2058.97,"text":"在創新出發促進產業升級並提升勞動環境部分的重要執行成果包括完成會診及標準化的10種觀測項目的農業觀測站的觀測資料強化海氣向的資訊在農業領域的多元運用及服務例如農業與養殖區"},{"start":2072.031,"end":2084.182,"text":"區域經濟預報及高解析度農業客製化預報等氣象資料並持續辦理114年度的航港產業數位轉型成果獎勵方案等受理申請"},{"start":2086.138,"end":2110.851,"text":"鼓勵港口業者導入AI 物聯網 雲端大數據等科技應用 以提升作業效率 服務品質未來持續以不同的 以各級的縣市政府合作地區型的氣象應用服務 強化海氣象觀測與預報能力累積至少超過20家以上的業者合作氣象資源創新試用方案打造多元跨域應用與服務"},{"start":2111.932,"end":2131.392,"text":"並持續鼓勵港港業者導入多元智慧化的服務促進港港產業數位轉型透過實質獎勵補助來協助港區業者導入數位化創新服務在幸福公路網建設部分重要的執行成果包括國道1號中港西橋改建工程"},{"start":2132.293,"end":2156.039,"text":"於今年2月 於今年2月21日完工 國道3號銜接台66線增設系統交流道工程於今年3月30日完工 國道1號中沙大橋耐洪與耐震力提升改善工程暨西螺交流道穿越橋改建工程於今年5月6日完工淡江大橋在今年的9月16號主橋的"},{"start":2158.904,"end":2182.246,"text":"鋼結構合攏 國道1號五股交流道改善工程北出紮道在10月27號辦理通車並持續辦理自行車的建置工程基隆道淡水之間已經累計超過45公里的自行車道改善及串聯工程未來持續推動公路建設及打造國際級的自行車道包括台九線"},{"start":2183.922,"end":2197.667,"text":"花東公路的木瓜溪橋改善工程預計在10月31日完工 國道1號中峰交流道新建工程暨主線的改善工程將在今年12月通車"},{"start":2199.249,"end":2215.14,"text":"而眾所矚目的淡江大橋基 聯絡道工程建設計畫預計在明年的5月通車在建立安全舒適的軌道網帶動繁榮便利的軌道生活圈部分重要的執行成果包括桃園捷運綠線的延伸到中壢"},{"start":2215.92,"end":2239.546,"text":"完成經費的審議 跟續辦理細複作業中那行政院也核定了台南捷運第一期南線的綜合規劃未來要推動 持續推動花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫南回及台東線行政區域內的9座車站暫停改善設置工程以及高鐵增開班次持續提升運能"},{"start":2241.026,"end":2257.197,"text":"並持續推動都會區的捷運建設台北捷運新義東延線及新北捷運三陰線工程預計將在明年完工通車在發展國際海空物流形塑亞太智慧運籌中心"},{"start":2258.058,"end":2286.677,"text":"重要的執行成果包括擴大桃園機場大數據及AI技術的應用現正進行運量及航班資訊AI對話的服務機器人功能的開發測試未來目前也在持續推動永續航空燃油SAF的行動計畫完成國際航空公司添加SAF配航國際航線在海港部分高雄港第三貨櫃中心改建工程70號碼頭"},{"start":2288.438,"end":2310.668,"text":"第一階段已經完工 在今年的6月底交付航商使用未來將持續的推動智慧機場 智慧物流等優化工程 完成桃園機場軟硬體的設施 深化SARS式型的計畫 提升我國航空減碳的"},{"start":2313.108,"end":2331.832,"text":"今年預計將使用超過5900公噸的SARF因應船舶大型化的發展趨勢 持續辦理高雄港第三第五貨櫃中心的改建工程 擴大貨櫃處理量能 並推動台中港37號38號風電碼頭的興建工程 以提升臺灣離岸風場建置的量能"},{"start":2338.453,"end":2356.741,"text":"在厚植軟實力打造國家品牌的觀光方案部分包括觀光立國二零三年觀光造園產業步步有觀光發展觀光主流化推動地方觀光資源整合平臺籌設臺灣觀光研訓院打造國家級智庫輔導觀光產業數數位化集在"},{"start":2364.031,"end":2382.692,"text":"對等尊嚴互惠原則下推動兩岸交流發展多元觀光等六項工作重點分數如下在觀光立國2030觀光造園產業部分重要的執行成果包括執行Toyron 2025的觀光臺灣觀光邁向2025方案"},{"start":2386.076,"end":2395.326,"text":"積極開拓國際級國旅市場在去年的觀光產值已經達到8378億元較112年成長超過9.5%未來推動JULIAN 2030的計畫預計整體觀光收入每年成長在2到3個百分點之間"},{"start":2407.56,"end":2425.021,"text":"預計到119年達到兆元目標在部部有觀光發展觀光主流化部分主要的執行成果包括透過行政院觀光產業振興諮詢會議協調跨部會的觀光議題擴大部會合作如與經濟部國貿署合作"},{"start":2426.238,"end":2449.024,"text":"順道觀光與原住民委員會合作部落觀光與內政部國家公園署合作北回之巔旗艦計畫等未來持續深化跨部會的合作推廣文化客庄園鄉農旅等多元主題打造臺灣觀光品牌形象在推動地方觀光資源整合平臺方面"},{"start":2449.524,"end":2460,"text":"重要執行成果包括整合既有的18個觀光圈執行成果重新打造北中南東及3個離島澎湖金門馬祖計7個觀光"},{"start":2464.27,"end":2488.766,"text":"計7個區域觀光圈打造區域觀光品牌未來持續強化區域觀光圈的國際景點周邊串聯展現區域特色及加強跨域合作擴大活動整合推動在地遊程帶動區域產業發展在籌設觀光研訓院打造國家級智庫部分籌設財團法人國家財團法人台灣觀光研訓院作為臺灣觀光研訓智庫及國際合作平臺"},{"start":2493.55,"end":2497.778,"text":"並以115年掛牌成立為目標 落實觀光政策條件"},{"start":2499.666,"end":2525.145,"text":"國際合作鏈結 產業地方 測鏡及人才培育認證等四大核心功能在輔導觀光產業數位化部分 透過觀光產業數位博覽會媒合觀光與資訊科技產業 擴大觀光產業數位化應用範圍 並持續輔導觀光產業導入智慧化設備或系統 促進觀光產業數位化 最後在對等尊嚴及互惠原則下"},{"start":2525.945,"end":2549.586,"text":"推動兩岸交流發展多元觀光在兩岸觀光旅遊相關規劃及相關機關已經做好準備的前提下經由觀光小兩會就旅遊安全及旅行品質等事項進行協商未來持續在對等尊嚴及互惠原則下推動兩岸交流 結語"},{"start":2551.636,"end":2579.597,"text":"本次專題報告 以人本交通便捷 臺灣與公共立國為雙主軸 回應國家工程的整體目標 在人本交通方面交通部將持續與以人本安全平權任性創新為核心推動六大主軸 營造安全的用路環境 優化公共運輸創新與勞動環境的升級 幸福公路往舒適便捷的軌道"},{"start":2580.7,"end":2596.129,"text":"路網以及國際海空智慧運籌行程從通勤到觀光從城鄉到國際的整體交通服務產業升級路徑持續擴大民眾移動權產業效能與國家競爭力的中效"},{"start":2596.849,"end":2617.859,"text":"在觀光面向部分 觀光署將持續關注美國關稅匯率波動及天災等影響事實調整行銷推廣策略與作為穩健提升來台旅客人次並提升旅宿接待的量能配合國家希望工程觀光面向的各項行動方案積極達成質量並進的2030觀光造園產業"},{"start":2624.588,"end":2642,"text":"交通建設不只是里程的增加更是服務品質公平與韌性的提升觀光推動也不只是人次的成長更重視體驗價值與產業升級交通部將持續與地方政府產業與社會各界攜手可以驗證的也可以"},{"start":2643.308,"end":2668.76,"text":"以可驗證的績效 務實的工作 工程與友善品質友善的服務 讓移動更安全轉乘更順暢 旅遊更美好實現人本交通 便捷台灣的共同願景敬請主席 各位委員 理事先生指教謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請交通部公共署陳玉秀署長報告"},{"start":2679.219,"end":2705.1,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天應邀列席貴委員會針對九百萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振興改善措施以及觀光立國二零三零年觀光兆元產業等兩大議題進行專案報告以下請就重點說明敬請各位委員指教第一個項目是針對九百萬國際旅客達標的情形"},{"start":2706.361,"end":2723.879,"text":"一個是國際旅客達表情形像目前來臺旅客的現況來臺旅客市場目前穩定的在成長依據內政部移民署今年初一百一十四年度一到九月份來臺旅客超過六百零五萬人次較去年同期成長九趴"},{"start":2724.76,"end":2745.795,"text":"那其中呢日本已經突破12%中國大陸成長62%美加成長10%菲律賓更成長35%表現亮眼那第二是日本來臺人次的成長呢已經12%較去年同期間提早一個月突破百萬人次日本來臺市場持續性的穩定呢"},{"start":2746.715,"end":2772.224,"text":"除了說一百一十四年度上半年陸續航班恢復之外呢觀光署在一百一十四年度市場宣傳推廣也顯見成效除了透過單元人觀光多項的多場的觀光推廣活動之外呢也跟旅營社合作促銷活動那在匯集在人潮匯集的地方刊登台灣的廣告有效提升台灣觀光在日本的曝光度"},{"start":2773.064,"end":2794.574,"text":"那第三個東南亞市場免簽延長拓展助攻菲律賓來台將創新高菲律賓因為地理位置離臺灣比較近航程短航班多那及事辦免簽政策的延續所以今113年度呢菲律賓馬尼拉設置了服務分處深耕的市場積極行銷"},{"start":2796.215,"end":2812.282,"text":"今年度菲律賓來臺人次成長動能就蠻強的預估到10月就可以超越去年的46.7萬人次11月份將超越疫情前的50.9萬人次再創新高"},{"start":2813.062,"end":2839.948,"text":"那在新興市場方面我們也在推廣就是市場拓展跟推廣旗下來臺旅客成長有感印度跟紐澳市場受惠於也是觀光署設立了孟買及雪梨觀光服務分處那在整個行銷力道跟服務資訊服務量能的部分都能有相對的能見度今年度二月份迎來了印度市場最大的獎勵旅遊800人"},{"start":2841.789,"end":2848.418,"text":"所以該兩個市場的成長幅度在今年都超過二位數那也超越疫情前同期的規模"},{"start":2849.608,"end":2871.676,"text":"那在年底衝刺作為呢在東北亞的部分呢日本市場將透過大型的勸募活動像在今年十二月七號八號呢會有千人方天燈那預計會超過一千萬一千萬一千名旅客來台那同時間也還是會跟日本旅行業狹下的各項送客臺灣旅行社合作"},{"start":2872.356,"end":2893.852,"text":"那同時有韓包機或者是跟國際航空公司進行break Friday促銷活動等等韓國市場呢則透過駐地的Korea Mice Expo2025年的旅展另外是跟韓國主要的OTA線上旅行社各組團旅行社還有Navia旅遊平臺的合作"},{"start":2894.692,"end":2915.532,"text":"推出優惠限時折扣我們同時間在韓國節慶的時候登節宣傳2026年臺灣燈會在嘉義在東南亞市場目前第四屆已經規劃陸續跟航空公司證明的OTA或組團社還有像國際旅遊搜尋引擎合作積極訓練跟送客"},{"start":2916.372,"end":2935.994,"text":"那今年在越南市场有跟当地最大的旅游生成平台LACA AI合作设置台湾专区这是今年的首创开发了台湾AI旅游专家透过释出台湾旅游商品折扣码吸引越南旅客来台"},{"start":2938.033,"end":2954.879,"text":"並致於電競英雄聯盟太平洋職業競賽總決賽會場刊登我們的宣傳廣告那第三個是歐美的高端市場鼓勵一城多戰這個部分持續跟經濟部國貿局合作推動所謂的"},{"start":2956.98,"end":2975.732,"text":"順道觀光補助的方案這個部分希望說鼓勵外國旅客來臺參加會展的同時延長停留時間同時順道旅遊活絡在地的經濟觀光跟消費這個部分114年度每人提供新臺幣2000最高每岸可以補助到60萬元"},{"start":2977.458,"end":2992.996,"text":"那結合亞洲主要旅遊目的地打一程多站並針對過境跟轉機的旅客提供免費的行程那在與歐美知名且具會員流量的線上旅行社合作辦理促銷"},{"start":2994.017,"end":3010.213,"text":"那最後一個是善用戶外的廣告今年度在拉斯維加斯的雙層巴士紐約的雙層巴士還有紐約Time Square的戶外3D都有做了我們大的一個戶外廣告那也全面提升臺灣的聲量跟知名度"},{"start":3011.174,"end":3032.337,"text":"最後在我們做分眾行銷擴大的部分今年的休學旅行看起來是較過去有創新高114年度1月到7月日本來台休學旅行大概4314人已經較去年同期成長57%那今年到10月份已經收到學校申請的表件"},{"start":3033.118,"end":3048.149,"text":"大概到年底前預計接大八十團超過一萬人三十團超過兩百人以上的團體這個部分就是所謂的我們講要培養未來重遊台灣的種子旅客今日的學子明日的旅人"},{"start":3049.33,"end":3065.816,"text":"那在有關這個部分還有北客 南引 高鐵 馬易 宋鷹關烏署針對外籍的旅客推出了高鐵兩人同行一人免費只要在線上指定購買的旅遊目的地是台中以南的高鐵站第二人都是免費的"},{"start":3067.096,"end":3088.577,"text":"這個部分今年1月到9月共吸引了161,550人國際旅客使用本次優惠是有效提升國際旅客前往中南部的意願第三個 臺灣國際觀光發展受外在影響很大 如美國的關稅 獲利率波動跟天災"},{"start":3089.939,"end":3110.399,"text":"產業也面臨勞動力重建產品轉型數位應用跟永續發展多元的挑戰那觀光署會在國際推展上推展臺灣觀光的時候同時關注各項影響因此適時調整行銷策略與作為穩健提升來臺的旅客"},{"start":3112.369,"end":3131.456,"text":"第二個報告有關呂素月缺工情形振興改善措施呂素月現在缺工的狀況大概在一百一十二年度委託調查結果有六千六百個缺口那一百一十四年度目前正在調查調查有新的項目新的人力需求"},{"start":3132.296,"end":3158.432,"text":"那這個部分優先以本國勞工補足人力缺口光屬在一百一十二年到四月到一百一十三年度九月期間實施了補助旅宿業穩定接待國際旅客服務量能那只要是新聘房務跟清潔人員薪資符合連續六個月是可以申請五千元補助這個項目申請大概有兩千八百一十一人"},{"start":3159.392,"end":3178.341,"text":"那第三個我們爭取喬萬生畢業留台是簡化了喬萬生點評制申請程序修改為勾選制這個部分對於說簡化為了業者留用喬萬生是有幫助的目前在截至114年多10月勞動部勞動部勞動力發展署合可是1153人"},{"start":3186.258,"end":3214.084,"text":"開放畢業僑外生從事旅宿業的工作113年度起我們也官務署也辦理了在台僑外生從事旅宿業工作訓練課程80小時這個是非有利於非觀光科系的僑外生畢業後可以直接投入旅宿業服務工作那勞動部呢也在今年7月份開放企業自訓訓練地點跟時間更加彈性增加僑外生的意願"},{"start":3217,"end":3245.43,"text":"放寬實習生的規定公署也在去年10月公告有關觀光旅館業及旅館業申請外國籍學生來台來中華民國實習要點那放寬實習學制已經是二分之一那在今年度7月更放寬科系的資格希望能吸引更多元的外籍生來我國實習"},{"start":3246.75,"end":3275.343,"text":"以立旅館業者後續的招財目前共計申請1822名核准了1360人那最後配合勞動部演繹開放外國技術人力這個這個案子目前關於水晶提交擴大開放外國技術人力的評估報告及提案表給予勞動部勞動力發展所後續將配合勞動部政策配合政策辦理"},{"start":3276.994,"end":3294.286,"text":"那針對配合賴清德總統所提的國家希望工程及觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業的目標如何務實達成前面我們張司長已經有報告過我就稍微再簡略報告光屬在"},{"start":3295.547,"end":3313.519,"text":"觀光署針對於2030年觀光造園產業我們是以永續韌性數位創新為發展主軸那積極希望說發展觀光產業數位化觀光資源整合平臺化跟觀光主流化其以質量並進擴大吸引國際旅客來臺"},{"start":3314.9,"end":3340.028,"text":"提高來臺旅客的日均消費第二個是並強化國旅市場流速跟消費三是提升觀光產業取得永續認證的數量逐步實現2030年觀光產業達到兆元的目標下面的四個項目因為前面張司長已經也是有重點報告我是不是這邊我就直接略過謝謝"},{"start":3343.584,"end":3358.58,"text":"那接下來是有關報告我們希望推動質量並進台灣觀光發展2025年台灣榮獲九項綠色目的地全球百大故事獎並於世界幸福報告排名領先亞洲多個國家"},{"start":3360.121,"end":3375.465,"text":"臺灣美食美景自然好風俗民情及人民友善等多項優勢可信對文化生活品質更有高追求的高價值旅客並維護在地居民的幸福感及生活品質以致帶來實質的經濟效應"},{"start":3380.508,"end":3398.76,"text":"臺灣觀光不以量為唯一的指標而是質量並進以質為核心以量為助力追求高品質的永續觀光發展觀光署已經納入兼顧人絲跟消費力的整體觀光收入以及取得永續環保認證之觀光產業家屬為指標"},{"start":3403.223,"end":3425.096,"text":"展現落實永續觀光的決心最後 觀光署將持續掌握各客源市場設計環境條件目前旅遊市場恢復度 送客能量及未來潛力等資訊滾動檢討及調整各項行銷廣宣的措施全力吸引國際旅客來臺"},{"start":3427.158,"end":3450.751,"text":"透過每年辦一次的旅宿人力調查持續掌握旅宿業勞動力供需的情形透過各項措施舒緩旅宿業的缺工情形並就旅宿業缺工議題與相關部會溝通持續整合中央跟地方觀光資源優化並共同行銷具在地特色的觀光景點與活動"},{"start":3451.711,"end":3463.917,"text":"提高國旅流速跟消費並以質為核心量為助力達成質量並進的永續觀光發展以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3471.946,"end":3489.098,"text":"那接下來開始進行詢答 先宣告以下事項1 詢答時間出席委員6加1分鐘 列席委員4分鐘2 委員發言登記請於10點30分以前截止3 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診4 暫定10點30分休息5分鐘"},{"start":3507.847,"end":3525.129,"text":"好 現在我們請登記第一位洪孟楷召委執行主席謝謝 麻煩請次長跟觀光署署長好 林次長還有陳署長"},{"start":3531.107,"end":3556.503,"text":"好次長署長剛聽了快30分鐘這個美化的數字啦但我們還是要看一下實際的問題啊我先請教次長跟署長最近一次我們非公務的觀光旅遊是在哪邊國內還是國外去哪裡非公務啊非公務啊總是有放假嗎我們10月放了三次的三天連假有沒有出去走走"},{"start":3559.311,"end":3573.539,"text":"國內嘛 國內 國內到處有啦 國外沒有 去了哪裡國內就是周邊山區周邊山區 沒有過夜連市長都不過夜了那我們怎麼有辦法帶動國旅 來 署長我們要負責孰運好 來 署長我上任之後應該沒有所謂自己的時間了應該是週六日都是公務行程好 那有在哪裡有去旅遊過夜過嗎"},{"start":3587.459,"end":3613.436,"text":"最近是上個禮拜去台東台東OK好署長上任多久了6月27號到現在將近四個月四個月嘛好那其實本席今天為什麼會排這個專案報告我們重點還是要面對問題才能解決問題通篇沒有看到我們現在的問題如果說外國人或說一般不知道的人看到我們今天的報告還以為我們今天今年的觀光順差"},{"start":3615.888,"end":3638.823,"text":"旺盛但事實是去年我們觀光逆差差了將近900萬人那到目前為止1到9月我們現在觀光逆差有多少目前的觀光逆差確實還是有在慢慢還是有在成長大概是1比2點多是吧現在有數字嗎"},{"start":3640.325,"end":3660.776,"text":"來 現在觀光逆差有多少 現在大概是初入進差805萬人次805萬 對到幾月的時候 到9月底那我們去年差快將近900萬那今年現在到9月差了805萬那只剩最後3個月署長你是要創紀錄是不是"},{"start":3663.289,"end":3682.546,"text":"創觀光逆差的紀錄去年已經快要900萬我們已經認為是說這是一個很大的警訊因為首次將近快900萬的觀光逆差那現在1到9月你跟我們講是說已經805萬了只差不到100萬就要突破去年的數字來 署長"},{"start":3684.981,"end":3702.3,"text":"跟委員報告其實國人出國基本上也是對我們的收入是有幫助的所以現在又要再美化說這是什麼經濟表現亮眼所以我們有能力出國是好事不是第二個是說其實出國並不影響到他的國內旅遊"},{"start":3705.829,"end":3723.477,"text":"會不影響國內旅遊是我們據我們調查研究我第一次聽到這個可能會算是一個創新的一個說法這個是我們一個同仁一個我們的連假三天連假五天連假只要有連假國人如果選擇沒有留在國內旅遊而是出國旅遊他就只會一次消費嘛"},{"start":3723.917,"end":3744.775,"text":"那不是在國內留就在國外旅遊那為什麼大家不願意留在國內旅遊這是一個問題另外怎麼樣吸引更多觀光客過來台灣旅遊這是另外一個問題但很顯然你這兩個問題都沒有去面對問題解決問題啊來我先請教一下你認為四個月上任到目前為止國旅最大的問題在哪裡"},{"start":3748.044,"end":3774.185,"text":"國旅其實大家不是沒有進行國旅像今年上半年的國旅呢就已經又超過去年只是現在目前國旅的問題他是不留宿他不留宿就是當日來回或區域發展是所以連次長他也都沒有去住宿嘛對不對好來我現在就問的是為什麼國人不留宿現在你上任四個月了也不是新手了那告訴我們國旅現在你看到最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":3775.868,"end":3795.52,"text":"第一個台灣的交通真的也很方便這是第一個第二個呢確實國人也覺得我們的住宿費是比較貴的住宿比較貴對 住宿比較貴那第三個是因為國人是不太請假不太平日去旅遊所以我們的平日跟我們的週末日的"},{"start":3796.78,"end":3824.269,"text":"住宿的部分相對的擁擠比如說週末日的住宿真的相對的擁擠平日就相對的比較比較少所以我們才會提明年度的計畫希望去解決平日大家來署長所以你也要感謝在野黨的委員真的要幫我們勞工爭取四家一天假不然就像你剛剛講的國人他也不願意請假的話你根本沒有時間來去做國旅來有沒有看到最近連假的時候"},{"start":3825.009,"end":3853.838,"text":"有網路上很多針對國旅的討論包括說從機場看國旅真的是很慘說來臺灣都是轉機沒有真的留在臺灣的只有五位外國人剩下全部都轉機去其他國家再來有沒有看到最近也有看那個士林夜市有爆發那現在西門町商圈也有爆發說南韓的姐妹來臺灣旅遊點水果兩個水果被收取了830塊"},{"start":3856.089,"end":3883.696,"text":"有沒有看到這新聞所以服務品質可能沒有辦法很佳然後再加上是說有一些不孝的業者我相信99%業者是良善的但有一些不孝業者如果說在這個時候還殺雞取卵故意坑殺這個外國觀光客那這樣很有可能就會造成我們台灣的印象不好那以及飯店還有突然提出來是說我要大家自備大浴巾"},{"start":3888.033,"end":3914.409,"text":"來一次性的備品網路上大家也講就是說我們有出國的經驗國際現在也有針對節能減碳的提供備品的方式但是如同日本網友的留言以及旅遊的經驗就講說日本的很多旅店他可能是在一樓備品給大家自由領取而不是放在房間裡面你需要的人拿但現在台灣變成是在這一個一次性備品上面好像已經是"},{"start":3916.175,"end":3943.44,"text":"動輒得救所以變成是說我現在全都不提供然後如果說有提供的話還要大家加價購買甚至還有旅店就直接講是說包裝水大浴巾我不提供然後網路上的批評說好像台灣很窮署長那現在又面臨到你剛剛給我們的一個數據到1到9月已經過了四分之三的年805萬的逆差那最後這一個月最後這三個月"},{"start":3944.568,"end":3973.377,"text":"我們有辦法彌補這個逆差還是我們會持續的擴大我看起來很悲觀跟委員報告我台灣會一直持續的有出國的部分包含是我們現在出國相對的便宜因為匯率的關係所以這件事情在今年短時間我覺得應該還是會往前這樣走的所以改善不了所以現在觀光署署長已經告訴我們就是今年觀光一定是逆差"},{"start":3974.778,"end":3987.891,"text":"然後原因是因為我們現在匯率那沒有相對日本來講我們匯率是相對比較高是因為日本匯率低可是相對其他的國家我們其實沒有比較優勢但是我們出國便宜"},{"start":3990.186,"end":4018.283,"text":"妳講什麼不是 我是說因為這樣的關係所以像台灣跟台幣跟日幣比的話所以台灣還是跑日本跑得很多的原因是因為這樣所以我們到最後今天的討論重點我今天排的這專案報告就到最後重點是我們怪因為日本的匯率太低台灣人喜歡日本所以我們雙手一攤那這樣交通部觀光署就不用升格啦之前觀光局就好啦觀光局的時候我們利差還沒有那麼多耶"},{"start":4022.264,"end":4033.282,"text":"不是 我覺得今天我對事不對人我知道你身體不舒服但我看到這個專案報告之後我覺得沒有辦法接受的是我們通篇都在美化數字耶"},{"start":4034.994,"end":4054.897,"text":"好像我們活在不同的時空環境好像網路上的討論跟國旅對於國旅的抱怨或是國旅的我們的期待跟要求我們沒有任何一個官員有看到這樣的一個事實然後結果給我們這個報告你今天這個報告在奇文共賞一下如果說放在網路上我覺得大家會更生氣跟難過"},{"start":4057.574,"end":4085.845,"text":"大家都知道國旅的問題結果沒有一個報告今天我特別排了一個專案報告今天八個委員會裡面有三個委員會質詢而已為什麼要那麼認真就是我們認為是說這個東西跟民生消費有很大關係飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲運輸業者都是我們的民生消費能夠帶動好那才是最重要但就你們今天通篇美化文章"},{"start":4087.264,"end":4090.483,"text":"好棒棒我只是要沒有要求大家跟你們拍手"},{"start":4096.348,"end":4119.257,"text":"委員我們沒有不關心國旅的部分 署長你今天的報告就是讓大家沒有看到你看到問題跟試圖想要解決問題的誠意跟態度我覺得這才是問題 委員我們光看到今年上半年跟下半年的連續假期因為今年下半年連續假期也多那今年上半年的連續假期的住房率大概在49%"},{"start":4120.818,"end":4139.947,"text":"那今年下半年的住房率呢現在是在58%是有成長9%所以我認為這件事情是有在Getting better的要用這種冷冰冰的數字喔那我剛就一開始我開宗明義就講了就是今年的觀光逆差就是805萬"},{"start":4142.138,"end":4156.867,"text":"會看起來會超過去年的觀光逆差會不會突破千萬不知道但這對於台灣觀光來講這絕對不是一個光榮的數字最後我只請教那個缺工的問題之前5月就已經講就說"},{"start":4158.968,"end":4184.376,"text":"旅宿業要開放移工但是一直沒有問到詳細的狀況結果我們今天排了這個專案報告之後馬上今天行政院會就說要通過中階勞工開放能夠旅宿業怎麼那麼巧之前我們要問資料這個都問不到那結果現在我排了一個專案報告馬上今天同時間行政院會就通過這一條"},{"start":4189.011,"end":4213.407,"text":"是心電感應不是五月的時候是不是就講了那時候你還不是署長五月的時候前任署長來那時候就說要研議跟勞動部最快速度辦理我們那時候也講說那你要先照顧本國勞工真的沒有辦法你要開放要適度的開放並且你的辦法措施什麼都要出來結果過去這四五個月要問問資料問不到勞動部問不到"},{"start":4215.39,"end":4243.004,"text":"就說研議中研議中就今天排這個專案報告就那麼巧行政院同時間就說今天行政院會要通過那我請教現在要開放主會中階勞工他的範圍是什麼中階勞工的定義是什麼他的範圍未來他是協助旅宿業的房屋housecleaningroomservice房屋跟清潔櫃檯有沒有"},{"start":4246.325,"end":4260.411,"text":"櫃檯沒有櫃檯沒有在房屋裡面確定因為我之前有看到資料是說櫃檯有包括我想要確認是說未來開放之後有沒有會不會我們國人去國旅以後看到我們check in的同仁櫃檯是外籍人士來服務可以請同事補充說明嗎中介技術人力的部分你看我覺得這"},{"start":4274.557,"end":4300.583,"text":"這就最大問題就過去我們想要請教說你的辦法到底是什麼勞動部推觀光交通部推勞動部然後沒有給我們相關資料然後我真的排了專案報告之後今天行政院就說他要通過了然後現在照理講通過了你們應該有準備你們應該計畫已經成熟了可以一起來講跟委員補充報告剛剛再更新一下就是櫃台跟餐飲也有所以有四個項目"},{"start":4305.364,"end":4308.619,"text":"30秒前你跟我講沒有我沒有掌握"},{"start":4310.322,"end":4337.859,"text":"那這方案到底有沒有保障我們本國勞工有會不會30秒後遊跟我講沒有這個來來回回因為開了很多次會議然後我們就是因為開了很多次會議所以說本席也想要問相關資料但問不到那還有更重要的是你們今天到現在為止到底掌握多少以及旅宿業到底知不知道說你今天開放的動作是什麼還有我們勞動團體勞工團體知不知道說開放東西是什麼"},{"start":4344.269,"end":4372.243,"text":"會後請今天也已經宣布了會後給本席相關的資料以及你們要怎麼樣跟所有的旅宿業者在座溝通還有掌握未來我們的本土勞工因為本席看到新聞資料是說你們是一聘一這是新聞資料從新聞資料看到我們立法委員要質詢居然是要從新聞資料才看到這個新聞"},{"start":4374.554,"end":4394.115,"text":"你們是一聘一本勞有一個你們才可以聘一個外勞而且是中介勞工但是他服務範圍到底是什麼以及未來會不會我們的國旅遇到的這個check in的人員是外籍人員那還有這樣有沒有辦法真真正正能夠如同你剛剛講的問題核心房屋的價格"},{"start":4397.352,"end":4423.627,"text":"羊毛出在羊身上但如果說我們政府都已經協助做專案了能夠來降低他的人力成本不要再抱怨缺工了那房價還是一個晚上那麼的高定在那邊讓大家覺得是說我與其不如我就出國玩了那這樣國旅只會越來越慘這都環環相扣的本席對是不對人但是專題報告要的就是你們面對問題解決問題不是美化"},{"start":4424.793,"end":4437.977,"text":"你要化妝的話回家化妝不用來國會殿堂化妝謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷召委的執行好"},{"start":4452.35,"end":4480.279,"text":"剛剛上一位委員發言比較激動我們還是希望交通委員會是平和的我們大家好好的來溝通問題不過真的請我們今天列席的官員都要注意人民的感受最深刻絕對不是冷冰冰的數字人民的感受才是一切尤其觀光是新的服務觀光是新的政策推動好 謝謝 接下來再請林國成委員自選"},{"start":4490.523,"end":4514.931,"text":"謝謝主席請我們林國賢 林政次好 政次請那個那個署長是不舒服是吧 陳署長你不舒服 來 黃副署長起來 但是署長你要聽喔署長之前有跟本席報告他流感所以這幾天比較不舒服沒關係啦但是因為決策還是你要負責還是要聽一下好"},{"start":4520.35,"end":4533.33,"text":"市長你們的報告我都看了每年的報告都差不多了跟你們講這些政策也沒有用每一個立法院一直在談一直在談從"},{"start":4535.58,"end":4551.752,"text":"近來觀光的人數從1200到1000又下降900一直降 一直降但是這裡面有凸顯一個問題也就是我們出國的人數"},{"start":4553.16,"end":4576.877,"text":"上次我已經講過 為什麼他不回來為什麼他不想來 問題就是因為他不能去吸引他再回來的感覺所以為什麼我們的國人都要出國去說實在的 你們還敢講什麼希望工程 光光立國說實在的 這不要再講了 什麼光光立國"},{"start":4578.874,"end":4594.588,"text":"都沒有一個基礎然後沒有一個創新那怎麼會去光光立果呢好 所以我常主張這樣啦因為當然因為署長也剛上任了幾個月那說實在的"},{"start":4596.206,"end":4614.899,"text":"苛責你們也沒有什麼意義但是最起碼的話民意代表就是要提醒你們在觀光如何去做改進跟如何去做精進這是非常重要的所以我特別強調任何事情"},{"start":4616.747,"end":4642.94,"text":"小問題解決大問題就沒有可是問題現在我們小問題都沒有辦法解決當然是有大問題嘛所以你像剛才我們洪孟楷 昭緯所講的這是1比1或者5比1我跟你講喔如果我們觀光業的這些移工是1比1我坦白跟你講勞工絕對是抗議你們的"},{"start":4644.52,"end":4670.577,"text":"因為營造業是一個國家建設這麼重要他都沒有一比一他都沒有一比一所以這個我在想特別陳署長還有黃副署長要特別去注意該爭取的還是要爭取適度事辦讓他們可以引進但是是在保障勞工的情況之下"},{"start":4671.317,"end":4696.935,"text":"要去做適度的調整這個是合情合理那如果是一比一我認為是比例太高這個我要特別提供給各位來做參考好來我要談這些當然看起來也就是我們理管業的管理辦法也就是一定要去管理不要以為這是小事就是很簡單就是"},{"start":4701.072,"end":4722.413,"text":"過境就不管如同去縱容所以你知不知道在台中裡面我們消保處集合21家的旅館業只有11家只有11家在緩真空管理的部分合格"},{"start":4723.567,"end":4735.397,"text":"其他都不合格可是你們檢查21家都是不合格請問一下在這個部分你們怎麼做管理來黃副署長你們做什麼管理"},{"start":4737.171,"end":4760.273,"text":"這部分有跟縣市政府合作後續可能部分我們針對於稽核的部分去加強因為有些市長是合作的部分或許他們在稽核的部分做得不好有發現這個問題我想我們這個頻率的部分後續可以來加強好啦黃副市長還有林市長我要坦白跟你講你們不是有每一年要離管業的考評嗎"},{"start":4761.687,"end":4789.997,"text":"你們都不把這一項把它放進去他怎麼會去認真做啦所以這個就很簡單你們的考評制度裡面就有瑕疵你要他們做的就把它放在這裡你這裡不能得到五分不能得到三分我最起碼的話我就是給你扣分那你扣分的時候因為旅館業不管怎麼樣在整個國際裡面他還是需要你們的認證啊"},{"start":4791.949,"end":4814.528,"text":"所以這個部分 市長你的看法怎麼樣報委員非常認同那基本上這個反政統管理應該是每個旅館大小旅館都要做的事情所以我想跟您報告交通部應該會要求各個旅館都要執行反政統管理然後由觀光署來跟縣市政府做稽查集合的動作才行"},{"start":4815.048,"end":4838.65,"text":"因為隱私錢嘛這個不是只有針對有什麼其他的想法最起碼人在隱私錢尤其是單身女性進了那個旅館或民宿她在住宿的時候說實在的她的隱私非常重要那為什麼我們行政單位我們可以做得到為什麼"},{"start":4839.591,"end":4866.279,"text":"不做所以我建議我也同意市長就是慢慢把它改進納入正軌我想在督導會比較好一點另外就是因為人數的問題剛剛宏昭召委已經講得很清楚也就是大家喜歡出國入境的很少我們出境到9月底我想我的數據是你們給我的我們出境是1000多萬人"},{"start":4869.332,"end":4888.357,"text":"可是入境只有400多萬人那為什麼這個嫌疏會這麼大當然不要講國際的匯率問題等等這個都是在騙自己啦我們就是要檢討因為我們就是沒有辦法讓所有人又牽涉到整個政策這個對岸"},{"start":4891.118,"end":4908.408,"text":"你也沒有要開放讓他們觀光所以等等這些當然做起來就會很困難那我也希望我們要去注意到這個問題注意到這個問題所以另外一個也就是特別這個房價的問題我發現到房價的問題"},{"start":4911.73,"end":4936.902,"text":"當然啦 因為最近這個演唱會的產業不管是台北也好 高雄也好大家都在拼嘛大家在拼產業嘛那這個我們當然要肯定它啦兩邊的政府不管是台北市政府或者高雄市政府這個是一件好事也可以促進觀光這個我們基本上我們是全力支持但是不要忘了也就是我們這裡有一個問題 下一張"},{"start":4939.773,"end":4960.263,"text":"你看一看房價豐台到十倍把所有旅客當成盤子來看一下我們到底在這個部分你看有幾家只要演唱會他十倍的禮會接下來"},{"start":4961.707,"end":4988.287,"text":"也有9.8說實在的像這種東西不是在坑這些消費者嗎人家去消費看演唱會你們這些我跟你講這些只有台北市我想高雄也有但是我數據裡面是台北市來黃副署長陳署長你們看一下這個怎麼管理這個怎麼管理"},{"start":4990.619,"end":5006.811,"text":"這部分我們有關房價是有如果超過核定房價被我們結合出來的部分是有相關的房價本來原來原來是1240塊那假日他稍微調升一下是3695塊這很奇怪演唱會就變成13838塊請問一下有沒有超過你們的限定的價錢 有沒有"},{"start":5021.187,"end":5043.793,"text":"各旅館的部分它的合訂房價並沒有一致但如果有查到就是超過合訂房價因為平日的房價可能是他有打折沒有啦 黃副市長 陳副市長有立法委員質疑這些事情你們叫做有所作為一定要去下所有公文拜託地方政府轉達這些這個叫做"},{"start":5046.934,"end":5075.188,"text":"誠信的欺騙老百姓欺騙消費者這是違反公平教育法有演唱會他就是這樣這對消費者是沒有保障你想一想既然這麼小的問題我們的管理不好請問一下我們如何去推觀光立國啊所以我要拜託我們觀光署雖然這些自由市場但是千萬要保障消費者"},{"start":5076.161,"end":5099.04,"text":"所以你不能因為為了這些演唱會的產業結果房間訂不到沒有關係但是你有稍微調價是在合理調價範圍你不能把人家當成凱智嘛所以這是對人民對消費者是沒有保障的所以我要拜託我們"},{"start":5100.342,"end":5121.642,"text":"署長還有副署長你們要特別去注意這些光光要做要合情合理的價錢所以我在台灣13800多塊我去住你知道我到日本去日本是最貴的我到國外去 韓國去你知道我要住多少天嗎"},{"start":5122.932,"end":5136.478,"text":"你們去看看人家國際啦韓國啊 理數業最高最高的檔級不會超過三千塊啦我們是一萬多塊請問一下當然大家都往國外跑啊"},{"start":5137.642,"end":5157.403,"text":"我就出一個機票我吃也便宜住也便宜那我們在台灣國內旅遊所以國內旅遊為什麼打不出來問題在這裡問題在這裡所以我要拜託我們署長還有次長特別要去監督一下不要把消費者當成凱子這是非常重要的"},{"start":5159.064,"end":5184.032,"text":"謝謝非常謝謝您提醒那這個案例跟相關的事由我想我們會要求各縣市政府要去做查核第二個呢如果違規依照這個發展觀光條例處一萬以上五萬以下的划款該划的還是要划我們也要呼籲各縣市政府不要不要放這種因為避免殺雞取卵避免這些旅館業者造成旅客負面的效果好謝謝市長"},{"start":5186.772,"end":5211.098,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝接下來再請蔡奇昌委員持續謝謝主席署長因為身體不舒服那你坐著就好了 好不好那就請次長 次長請"},{"start":5217.509,"end":5244.314,"text":"我們很早那個幾個啦第一個我想就是這個一次性備品這個基於這個SDGs ESG等等我都很支持一次性備品的不主動提供這個可以但我看那個新聞有寫說這個呂樹葉的浴巾不提供就以後旅行要自己帶浴巾去這個觀光署是不是有澄清了"},{"start":5244.793,"end":5245.734,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5258.294,"end":5278.899,"text":"報告委員我是廣東署旅宿組的副組長曾一平那有關於一次性備品的部分呢大概兩個原則嘛就是以大代小還有鼓勵就是六項牙膏牙收六項部分是旅客要自備然後一次性的不用再講我的意思說預金算一次性嗎這個不算不列在這個六項當中的列管當中"},{"start":5279.699,"end":5295.818,"text":"好 這個普遍在台灣的旅宿業目前說把預金列為一次性的加速多嗎不多應該是個案而已這個案都跟他們告知了我們有告知旅宿業者但在上個禮拜也發了新聞稿好 這個要廣為讓"},{"start":5298.721,"end":5325.971,"text":"我們有旅館有 旅宿有公會嘛應該讓他們知道 也讓消費者知道沒有這件事情那也要請相關的旅宿業者要在官網上公告對對對 這個一定要說明清楚啦否則這個對臺灣影響也很大 外國人來還要自己帶預金 這個不合理第二個我想 你請坐來市長 這個第二個我想那個署長聽一下就好了這個我們現在開始做很多的行銷"},{"start":5327.233,"end":5348.263,"text":"目的就是希望把國外旅客介紹台灣讓他們可以進來換言之我們對於英鎊的市場我們投入了很多的資源那我的意思就是我不知道署裡面對於觀光署投入這些行銷資源有沒有相關的KPI也就是有沒有相關的對效果效益的這些檢測"},{"start":5349.924,"end":5375.815,"text":"譬如說我隨便挑幾個來看因為大家其實現在政治工作者基本上也都經營自己的頻道自己經營的自己的社群不只政治各行各業其實都是一樣的那我們一些很客觀的數字就可以來看譬如說這個圖裡面你看你請那個龜賢來代言的影片一個月前觀看次數是1049次"},{"start":5381.031,"end":5383.639,"text":"這個概念上應該請我代言你不只1049"},{"start":5386.138,"end":5414.137,"text":"而且我還不用收費我的意思就是該檢討啦那左邊這個是我們這個星級旅館的影片他觀看次數有4.5萬感覺起來還不錯但是只有看觀看次數我們也都知道嘛大家都內行人那個找機器人找網軍點一點他次數就可以飆高嘛這個不是我們要的所以我們會再搭配譬如說這個留言數留言數來下一頁"},{"start":5416.118,"end":5416.186,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5418.656,"end":5447.976,"text":"你看這個左邊 左邊這個是韓國觀光公社他請那個韓國叫做國民男友朴寶劍的這個代言的這個影片你可以看得到他這個幾萬是基本然後他最高還可以到1.3億次當然人口不一樣 韓國至少是我們的他5000萬人所以也不能夠完全用這個來去但是至少他的明顯 他的數字比較合理一點"},{"start":5448.956,"end":5472.706,"text":"那其他我們的叫做觀光署裡面的影片你可以看他相對其實就不多甚至也有那個幾百次譬如說我剛剛講龜賢1049那旁邊這個有沒有這個叫做這個佳穎是吧這個才729次這個其實都是很明顯的數字很不合理的地方好的下一個"},{"start":5475.302,"end":5495.635,"text":"好那這個是去年就是找許光漢代言觀看次數就有破百萬的就有破百萬的來下一頁好那這是找那個泰星泰國的明星來代言的那觀看次數有這個20萬次觀看次數有20萬次這個應該也算不錯不錯好再來好這個是一樣的就是那個好"},{"start":5501.82,"end":5527.872,"text":"然後再來就是這個是韓國的那個經紀公司的社群平台好來那所以我們我剛剛講過你從這些數字來看公安署應該要好好的來管理就是我們我今天來不是要檢討說他因為這個數字沒有什麼沒有一定點很高也不見得怎麼樣因為我們會講合理的是按讚數跟"},{"start":5528.852,"end":5554.843,"text":"跟那個留言數要一定程度的比例就是你按讚50萬留言3這個一定慣的一定慣的因為這個大概大家你們問一下可能觀光署裡面的年輕同仁他們有平常在使用社群平台應該就可以知道所以換言之觀光署應該對這些投入譬如說投入龜嫌投入哪一個影星我都沒意見你們去找去找適當的人但每一年都應該有這樣的一個檢討"},{"start":5556.744,"end":5583.986,"text":"對於投入效果的檢討甚至不用到年底年中我們就應該好好的來檢討比如說這個明顯到底這是他沒認真在推就代言那個人沒有很認真他自己也有社群平台他社群平台可能自己都比我們高非常的多可是他代言我們的影片是通路有問題是因為我們沒有在YouTube下廣告YouTube下廣告它其實就是點數率會比較高所以到底是什麼原因一定要好好的把它檢討出來"},{"start":5586.572,"end":5612.529,"text":"市長這樣你懂我的意思嗎非常認同我們投入的經費都要確認他用在對的地方所以我把它整理出來那最後我有一個事情也讓你們參考一下我們如果來做一個比較這個我們辦公室把它整理一下最後一張那個韓國觀光公社你看他的國際策略他的國際策略其實他不只是除了我剛剛講那個KPI檢討到底什麼原因該怎麼做你看他更重要的是他把他的這個"},{"start":5614.758,"end":5636.058,"text":"我們的社群平台當成主要的媒體平台同時他投資高質量的內容那更重要的是你看他的內容本身就是高質量的娛樂產業然後觀眾是主動搜尋和分享也就是說除了事後的KPI的檢討我們怎麼去跟這一個"},{"start":5638.719,"end":5656.364,"text":"網紅或者跟這一個代言的明星來合作其實那個內容的討論更重要或者他怎麼去持續讓他變成一個可以增加啦而不是事後說你沒有用我就換一個就從內容的投入應該就要開始因為時間的關係啦這個我會後會給你們參考所以我覺得這個是對於我們這些"},{"start":5661.511,"end":5679.216,"text":"行銷的費用啊 必須錢要花在刀口上要做一些有用的事情 好不好這個市長我今天因為時間關係我就講到這裡非常謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請李昆哲委員質詢"},{"start":5686.737,"end":5703.793,"text":"謝謝召委陳署長你也不用上來那你真的身體不舒服的話來跟侯孟凱召委報告他會做公正的一個處理謝謝召委我們請一下林國賢次長還有黃世芳副署長"},{"start":5705.094,"end":5726.052,"text":"也跟召委報告有昨天有接獲到署長這樣的狀況我就特別那個准許也說請副署長一定要陪同那今天如果說有什麼真的有問題的部分也請副署長這邊謝謝召委召委的善良大家都很肯定謝謝好次長跟副署長我們看"},{"start":5727.899,"end":5742.851,"text":"來看台灣的觀光其實是已經陷入困境當然我們今年的國際旅客的目標是已經下修了900萬但是看到今年1至7月大概只有478萬"},{"start":5744.853,"end":5771.973,"text":"如果以這樣的一個趨勢來看今年可能大概是830萬到840萬之間當然我也知道觀光署有在全力的衝刺也希望你們能夠達成這個低標但是我們看到我們的觀光旅遊其實有三大問題第一個問題就是我們整體的國際觀光它已經落後國際的"},{"start":5774.226,"end":5791.112,"text":"平均的一個標準我們是落後的第二個我們已經連續兩年無法達成下修的一個目標說起來也很尷尬這兩年的所謂的高標或是低標"},{"start":5792.489,"end":5819.64,"text":"都是由我跟部長在委員會所討論出來的但是都沒有辦法達成第三個問題他所展現的這已經不是國際疫情的衝擊也不是所謂匯率的問題這已經是台灣觀光結構出現了危機部長 副所長 次長那我們來討論一下我們台灣"},{"start":5822.557,"end":5825.948,"text":"的觀光旅遊陷入什麼困境有什麼問題來說一下"},{"start":5828.595,"end":5852.821,"text":"稍微 其實目前觀光的問題大概剛剛陳署長也有稍微說明一個是國人習慣去國外旅遊因為現在航網跟航線也真的很方便像我們到日本一周大概有800多個航次那費用也低那第二個是國內的環境跟這個旅宿的費用也相對高"},{"start":5853.861,"end":5876.192,"text":"第三個是我們國內的景點有一些也需要推陳出新市長你所談的都是相關比較知微莫解的一些問題那我們主要來看我們台灣觀光陷入的困境到底是什麼我們的觀光景點第一個觀光景點的同質性高"},{"start":5877.506,"end":5886.305,"text":"我們沒有辦法去建立區域旅遊品牌的這樣的一個形象都是個別的熱門的一個觀光景點而已"},{"start":5886.943,"end":5908.21,"text":"第二我們相關的資訊的禁用性跟交通系統的整合一直是我在交通委員會啊督促交通部及觀光署要去做改善也沒有做到就是說我們的資訊禁用性以及相關的交通系統的整合做得不好讓旅客啊"},{"start":5909.537,"end":5937.796,"text":"只能在北北基桃这样的一个地方来旅游如果说他们要去北北基桃以外地区旅游相关的资讯跟相关的交通无法配合另外第三就是我们的观光区过度的集中那这些观光区过度的集中它形成一个热门的观光的景点之后导致"},{"start":5938.885,"end":5961.673,"text":"它的品質下滑 性價比低那也就是說我們國際旅客比較少人知道比較沒有知名度的觀光區啊它沒有辦法得到適當的一個曝光行銷與價值開發世界各國都已經在多元化的這樣的一個"},{"start":5963.45,"end":5984.187,"text":"旅遊啦我們看到日本看到韓國世界各國主要都已經多元化二線三線的城市我們現在連主要的這樣的一個相關的二線三線都毫無辦法去建立另外就是提到我們觀光的人力的缺口"},{"start":5985.768,"end":5995.358,"text":"訓練也不足然後產業升級跟不上國際旅遊的一個服務的標準跟趨勢來我請黃副署長來你也來簡單說明一下"},{"start":6001.957,"end":6019.056,"text":"首先委員提的問題的部分我們事實上包括所謂的人過度集中的部分我們是利用現在的數位化跟智慧化希望去掌握人流讓人不要過度集中去影響到旅遊的品質我想這部分我們是今年度列為重點那交通整合部分我們有推"},{"start":6019.697,"end":6048.139,"text":"相關的一個交通卡我們包括所謂的台鐵高鐵還有我們的台灣好行台灣官邦的一個整合那因為目前是初始階段後續我們也希望藉由各個景區的這些旅行店的一個整合我想這部分也有類似就是去學習日本的一些所謂的一卡的部分來方便所謂不管是自由行旅客我想這部分我們會持續去努力那區域品牌的部分事實上我們有跟地方政府在配合"},{"start":6049.099,"end":6064.047,"text":"針對於地方政府提供的相關建設計畫我想我們的旅客啊來的已經是下降復甦的慢那我看到我們相關的這些國際旅遊啊"},{"start":6065.4,"end":6092.52,"text":"我們看到日本已經在討論觀光公害的這樣一個議題當然我們沒有觀光公害這樣的一個問題但是我們還是有旅客過度集中某幾個熱門景點的這樣一個問題日本的觀光公害現象就是旅客大量的湧入然後造成環境的複合然後服務就會產生品質低落這樣一個問題那其實它會形成一個惡性的循環"},{"start":6093.641,"end":6099.133,"text":"就是說大量旅客品質惡化然後就有負面的評價也會造成"},{"start":6100.256,"end":6126.405,"text":"旅客嚴重的這種降低重訪的這樣一個意願那觀光形象也會受到損害旅客流失品質再進一步的這樣一個惡化因為時間的關係我也簡單的說明我們來參考國際的經驗日本的經驗他們有相關應對的策略第一個區域觀光來做分流進行了品牌來"},{"start":6127.845,"end":6154.896,"text":"建立他們的品牌之後來進行相關的客群的分流人家已經做到這個地步已經在做客群的分流第二觀光景點的一個管制就是說採取預約制或是總量管制那也要進行差異化的補助差異化的補助我認為是一個很值得參考的一個重點就是說我們來根據區域的特性來進行補助那鼓勵旅客"},{"start":6155.916,"end":6165.794,"text":"区道比较有独特性或是比较没有知名度但是它有潜力发展的这些景点我们来进行差异化补助但是我们现在补助都不"},{"start":6166.772,"end":6192.669,"text":"都跟日本的做法不一樣我們都是全面的這樣平均的補助這樣我認為是會有問題的那或者是專案的補助專案的補助我們來鼓勵區域的團體業者推出具有這種獨特性的觀光推廣的一些發展計畫每岸有五千萬的日幣大概就台幣一千萬至一千三百萬左右"},{"start":6193.59,"end":6221.836,"text":"更重要有一個永續的認證就是推動JSTST的這樣的一個標準就是日本的一個永續觀光的一個認證的一個標準那強化他們相關人員的培訓以及景區的環境永續那我也再借用最後一點時間我們來看韓國的做法韓國的做法他們召開第十屆國家旅遊的戰略會議"},{"start":6223.416,"end":6245.465,"text":"已經提升到旅遊的戰略會議呢第一個首爾同級的這樣一個新的旅遊中心編列預算他們還要再開發一個新的旅遊中心出來一個新的旅遊中心出來他們也在推動次級的觀光圈呢在首爾的周邊打造這種次級的觀光圈來做分流"},{"start":6246.565,"end":6265.428,"text":"第三就是區域的品牌補助兼投入預算來支持地方政府建立區域旅遊的品牌這也都是值得我們借鏡我們一直都是在台北101然後萬華士林夜市"},{"start":6267.674,"end":6290.684,"text":"不然就是日月潭阿里山現在太魯閣因為地震台灣的關係也受到衝擊你看日本韓國旅客就來了降低了非常的多另外就是愛鄉的這種愛鄉券的優惠就是說離島的旅遊退還50%的旅費同步推出連續的優惠券"},{"start":6292.87,"end":6313.952,"text":"年數的優惠券這個也是值得我們借進不然我們的旅遊現在大概都是一日性的這種住宿率也沒有成長這種年數的優惠券島嶼的住宿的優惠券都值得我們去做參考"},{"start":6314.775,"end":6343.637,"text":"好那其實大家對觀光署要求都非常的嚴格那也希望你們要達成這種推動旅遊的這樣一個基本的目標那也請交通部嚴加督促是那陳署長也因為工作非常的繁重但是也希望你自己要保重身體你看你們觀光署其他的同仁氣色都非常好你自己要多保重謝謝"},{"start":6345.238,"end":6364.445,"text":"謝謝委員那您的這個日本跟韓國的資訊我們會帶回來參考如果有機會我們再跟您報告目前觀光署的做法謝謝委員謝謝謝謝希望大家氣色都好來接下來再請我們氣色也很好的何新淳委員質詢謝謝主席洪門凱召委我們請次長林次長請"},{"start":6379.541,"end":6408.38,"text":"市長好辛苦了大家身體都要保重身體健康最重要謝謝我想剛剛李昆哲委員召委有提到這個有很多國家已經開始把觀光把它提升在一個國家級的一個策略思維那個戰略的思維那這樣子的戰略思維我知道我們今年打算力拚有一個觀光的一個訓研院對不對"},{"start":6410.001,"end":6426.171,"text":"研訓院那你有信心今年可以拚三讀通過嗎跟委員報告我們研訓院經過觀光署的分析也跟院裡做過兩次報告那目前副院長已經知道我們調整成四大主軸"},{"start":6427.451,"end":6451.602,"text":"那一個是跟國際接軌國際品牌的行銷第二個呢是這個跟地方的這個產業促進要結合第三個是調查研訓跟策略規劃第四個是考照訓練所以這些策略我們目前都在準備那都在準備目前有打算在什麼時候送到立法院嗎明年"},{"start":6453.464,"end":6467.202,"text":"年底成立筹约处明年初能够挂牌因为他是用这个财团法人法他用财团法人法所以他不是用行政法人是财团法人好那我们希望第一个"},{"start":6469.464,"end":6493.935,"text":"我們絕對全力支持因為作為一個這個觀光是台灣未來要推展的一個最重要最重要的一個產業那我們的一個國家級的一個戰略思維那如何的來重建台灣的觀光甚至如同過去我們一直強調的質量都要並重那為什麼我會提這件事因為剛剛"},{"start":6495.596,"end":6518.725,"text":"有看到李昆哲委員稍微提到這個韓國的思維裡面有對於這個區域品牌的建立那我想在未來的這樣子財團法人的一個研訓院裡面對於這個區域品牌的建立也是一個重點我就是要跟市長跟署長要來討論的就是我們長期在爭取"},{"start":6520.366,"end":6535.243,"text":"質詢推動台中的觀光中台灣的區域品牌該如何建立那其中一個策略是郵輪那我當然也非常感謝港務公司的努力終於破零"},{"start":6536.184,"end":6557.941,"text":"明年即將迎來這個郵輪我在2023年5月就在提醒我們國際郵輪的招商不夠好不夠快那彩線團也不夠那對台中的各地區域的特色的旅遊的套裝的行程做得不夠好那所以我要求要"},{"start":6559.578,"end":6583.91,"text":"積極的找國外的採線團來這個有做到我先肯定第二個2024我也在講那我們中央跟地方政府如何合作把該做的準備做好做滿做足能夠迎接這個郵輪觀光客國際的觀光客能夠落地所以我知道經過港務公司的一個努力"},{"start":6587.071,"end":6606.476,"text":"2026台中港預計會有8艘次對不對有4艘郵輪對不對所以次長我也必須要講終於我們可以破蛋破鯉魚非常謝謝委員是所以大家很努力的先肯定但是呢好還要更好相對於其他的港口台中港"},{"start":6607.116,"end":6622.747,"text":"只有八燒市我當然還是不滿意但是呢起碼是一個開始那我只是想知道說那跟地方政府的合作包括那在地的交通接駁岸上的觀光行程都準備好了嗎包委員我是請副總"},{"start":6625.523,"end":6650.669,"text":"港公司的張副總跟委員報告這一部分我們已經有都積極準備因為很難得繼疫情之後又有四艘郵輪要來台中港我們非常重視我們期待很久了所以我們在今年我們也安排國外的這些知名的郵輪公司都來採線從六月份十月份到下個月都一樣有從六月到下個月到"},{"start":6651.649,"end":6670.34,"text":"6月份有一次10月份有一次然後11月份下個月也有所以我們也安排在台中這邊去考察鹿港老街 霧峰林家還有國家歌劇院來 接下來來 我請教一下你帶他們來彩線團走的路線是你提供給我的這三條線嗎"},{"start":6671.909,"end":6689.014,"text":"你看一下你的資料這是你們提供給我的就是說你們推薦台中的這個郵輪觀光能夠落地那觀光客有三套行程一個是從台中港到市區裡面國家歌劇院對不對再回到海線的高美濕地對不對"},{"start":6690.054,"end":6715.552,"text":"那一個是呢往彰化鹿港老街那邊走嘛再回到台中的這個山景Outlet那第三條線是從台中我一直強調的山海屯市區我們希望都有各有特色的一個行程所以第三條線是往屯區走嘛對不對再回到台中港港區因為現在台中中台灣台中的這個交通是非常方便的那所以我是想問說這三條"},{"start":6718.334,"end":6738.912,"text":"旅遊行程路線是確定嗎還是說這是你們帶彩線團來走的事半路線那個跟委員報告這個是我們初步的規劃但是這個都可以去做調整委員或是委員的辦公室如果有更加的我們都可以去開放多元的行程出來"},{"start":6739.312,"end":6757.832,"text":"我是建議啦我為什麼會提這個當然這個很好你有分三海豚四區都有把我們大台中市都有琢磨到那有帶大家繞一圈但是我為什麼會問這個呢因為台中是一個年輕的城市我們有很多的特色而且根據國際郵輪協會2025的報告"},{"start":6760.635,"end":6777.055,"text":"那以後郵輪的觀光的族群有年輕化的趨勢也就是說他從原來的可能是60歲70歲的銀髮族的一個退休族的一個觀光到現在有是家庭家族"},{"start":6777.795,"end":6795.775,"text":"亲子甚至年轻人的选择也选择邮轮就是它有年轻化的趋势那所以我们在相关的设计的一个套装行程里面我们可以更多元的开发这个是我的提醒为什么呢因为我们认为对焦"},{"start":6797.459,"end":6819.851,"text":"來行銷很重要對焦行銷很重要那我們如何去擴大我想業界有在做這樣子的一個精準的一個聚焦的行銷這個策略這樣方式你們也應該懂你們也應該做所以我認為我們還要運用現代化的一個數據分析我今天台中港有"},{"start":6820.851,"end":6847.842,"text":"八艘郵輪要來那我在八艘郵輪裡面我們可不可以事先去盤點一下或者是在捉摸一下來的旅客的年齡層那課程的年齡可以決定他的旅遊的樣態他可能喜歡什麼樣的旅遊形式那我們用這樣子的分析來找出不同族群的偏好行程那我們可以來設定"},{"start":6849.994,"end":6871.779,"text":"以客為尊嘛那我台中有很多可以去互相搭配的好的行程嘛所以剛剛講的三條那個三海豚市區那我也可以有年輕的更多元化的行程我覺得這個部分是我們應該要應用現在的新的"},{"start":6872.539,"end":6886.524,"text":"數位化的行銷策略來因應那來打造大台中的特色行程這個你們做得到嗎好 可以 謝謝委員可以嗎 好不好感謝 感謝委員的提點那最後最後這個外語的導遊人才因為有郵輪那帶進國際觀光客那來的人呢"},{"start":6892.006,"end":6916.886,"text":"英文為主還是日本人韓國人甚至東南亞國家的旅客那現在我們大概外語的導遊人才英文沒問題日語也沒問題韓語現在也熱門可是其他的語言要搭配我們的華語的導遊所以這個部分我覺得人才的培育應該要更加強"},{"start":6918.327,"end":6935.604,"text":"這個部分我們打算怎麼因應我們有解決方案嗎英文一般是國際語言那我們有關稀少語言的部分會加強訓練那除了訓練之外我們應該提供誘因就是訓練完成的人他願意從事相關的行業"},{"start":6936.324,"end":6957.823,"text":"那有關郵程的部分我也這邊補充說明因為還是要由郵輪賣的出去所以變成郵輪遊客喜歡跟後續地階設的整合部分我們會配合郵輪公司來做一個調整那除了所謂的郵輪郵輪上的郵程跟後續有些是屬於自由行的客人這些景點的介紹我想我們光屬也會做好相關的一個準備來服務遊客"},{"start":6959.204,"end":6982.29,"text":"那再拜託會後再給我相關的資料那期待這一次明年度的這八艘次的郵輪能夠呢成功那未來來爭取更多的郵輪可以進來台中謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢那我們宣告一下等一下林郡縣委員質詢完畢之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":6992.099,"end":7016.55,"text":"好 謝謝主席 又請林次長好 次長請那現在觀光署是副署長來嗎陳署長也有到不是 陳玉秀不方便坐著有必要的時候發一個麥克風啦因為有時候問到問題你要自我去回答所以可以這個來說好 首先問一下次長好了因為今天部長也沒來吳院長你們到底關不關心這個觀光產業"},{"start":7019.111,"end":7039.281,"text":"觀光很重要就派你來嘛因為你是這個陸海空也是屬於空的我也不知道請問一下到底今年九百萬的目標現在達標的信心是怎麼樣包委員還在積極努力中我們到九月底27號是破六百萬人次"},{"start":7040.041,"end":7068.441,"text":"那依照目前的資訊10月26大概到667萬次所以有信心有努力的目標前面九個月前面三季目前你們統計是605萬事實上每一季大概是202萬如果以這個數字來估算的話你最後一季因為現在馬上就剩兩個月了我覺得不見可以達標但我要講一下我的心得"},{"start":7069.622,"end":7094.754,"text":"那尤其我們的署長是來自企業界其實我們當時我們部長用企業人才我個人是覺得期待真的很期待因為為什麼呢企業帶進來的企業精神其實企業精神很重KPI也很重我們的一個績效當然在公務機關我們不是以利潤為一個中心但是肯定有它的一個績效但如果在一般企業績效沒有達標一年沒達標"},{"start":7095.974,"end":7112.452,"text":"兩年沒達標其實是草就走人了沒有再這邊機會所以第二年我們決定了今年900萬不達目標我再問你包委員明年我們800萬我們還努力我們這個國家觀光可以這樣的這麼多人才可以這樣繼續搞去年我們從1200萬聽到"},{"start":7116.835,"end":7143.464,"text":"1000萬 最後785萬左右那今年呢 又從1000萬開始聽那署長來的時候他也很誠實嘛他說目標900萬那現在呢 看樣子也不能達標我不知道啦 因為今天整個政府其實是面對國人你們所有的錢都是國民的納稅的錢在你們身上大家期待的尤其這些觀光產業如果這樣的持續在全世界"},{"start":7144.844,"end":7163.457,"text":"大部分旅遊這個觀光都已經超越起飛的一個階段尤其很多我們熟悉的國家可是我們還在很努力的想辦法說明我們為什麼不行其他國家就是用人數用產業來代表他行我覺得這個差距太大了"},{"start":7165.109,"end":7186.273,"text":"我想請教一下那署長你坐在那邊也可以回答因為這是一個延續性的問題10月8號距離現在三個禮拜那時候特別把13個風景區那個副署長你也可以回答副署長因為你做過兩三個風景區的處長你兩邊都做過你知道我們在談的是什麼"},{"start":7187.711,"end":7211.924,"text":"第一個不光是桃園今天就完整目前你13個國家風景區全部涵蓋沒有涵蓋到的有5個縣市台北桃園新竹嘉義以及金門縣我一併來講不要光講桃園好了那你說這個有什麼好講的呢那就風景管理處風景區的預算反正這麼少"},{"start":7213.55,"end":7240.752,"text":"所以今天各位看一下就114年的單位預算就是我到底在說什麼就是你們觀光署的錢是償付於國家風景管理處你的55.2億的預算其中13個風管處就分掉了61%六成就在這裡所以你說我們沒有被列到的縣市要不要去關心我當然要關心"},{"start":7241.877,"end":7264.848,"text":"第二個早期風景管理處的時候你說他是一個比較特殊的單位特殊單位因為全國只有兩個三個他要特別照顧可是當國家已經發展到九成的縣市八成的縣市全變都是風景管理區我告訴你道館要特別照顧的是那沒有列入的副市長你覺得呢"},{"start":7266.082,"end":7271.633,"text":"這些錢都不會把這五個縣市列入你覺得這樣公平嗎對於國家的資源"},{"start":7273.685,"end":7301.692,"text":"報告委員有關就是成立風景區的部分我們有相關程序在走但對於就是沒有列入的部分事實上我們在有些特別預算的部分會由這些像桃園的部分之前我們針對石門水庫事實上也協助了很多預算去整理石門水庫所以就算是沒有列在內那我們觀光圈的部分事實上就是要去彌補有些沒有在風景區裡面去整合這些沒有在風景區裡面的這些縣市的部分我知道了"},{"start":7302.372,"end":7331.576,"text":"就是我們這五個縣市沒有納到你60%的預算跟我們無關但是我們還是會施捨你我們還是會幫忙你憑什麼你現在這國家的預算是桃園人 台北人 新竹人是沒有納稅你們注入了33.7億在13個國家風景區我當然不是說針對數這個制度其實也不是你們訂的可是在這樣的 你去檢討從過去保障少數的國家風景區給它支援"},{"start":7332.556,"end":7357.964,"text":"現在已經多到普遍到只有五個縣市它不屬於這個部分我覺得當時的一個規劃應該要好好去思考這個問題不然你們這個署長也說他在帶動這個國家觀光的一個策略的時候老師這車拉的有五個縣市沒有動因為他拉的是13個國家風雨區這樣的是不行的所以署長你可以在原地回答一下嗎因為當天部長是說"},{"start":7359.404,"end":7379.98,"text":"他也覺得他也覺得這可以努力所以他說他會馬上跟地方政府一起來努力現在三個禮拜了目前的狀況是如何我們現在問題是有針對像北橫的部分嘛對不對是指說其他的地方五個國家嗎五個縣市嗎"},{"start":7388.181,"end":7412.924,"text":"好好好 你休息吧反正問題已經問了10月8號部長的回答是說確實61%的預算跟這些縣市都無關因為有說真的那這樣覺得很奇怪他也覺得說這個部分我們看是不是用其他地方來補足我們希望在下次的時候能夠有具體的一個答案不光是對桃園那再來"},{"start":7413.973,"end":7437.766,"text":"好吧如果說不贏 我們策略是這樣說不贏 講不贏 打不贏那我就參加你們的隊伍了好不好那我們這個桃園也申請北橫國家風景區嘛我們也想參加嘛變成第14個國家風景區嘛這也弄了很久了嘛那這樣的好不好 次長你說一下你支持不支持北橫這麼漂亮你支持不支持"},{"start":7440.058,"end":7453.232,"text":"報委員他的特色跟條件如果能納入應該是沒有問題現在就是說依照程序他必須要跟原住民部落會議要溝通那所以目前還在程序中 是好的"},{"start":7454.605,"end":7479.39,"text":"國家級的風景區這如果通過的話是由國家所以你要以國家的視野來看這個區塊在整個北台灣是一個非常重要的它確實是一個國家級的景點這是事實山川這麼漂亮它的點也這麼多自然的景觀它早就在本位上風景管理其實它本質早就符合了"},{"start":7479.93,"end":7504.395,"text":"但是因為第一個他跨了三個縣市包括新北宜蘭桃園你們不出來幫忙一下你們不出來幫忙一下很多事情扣在一起很難第二個確實部落會議希望園民會也能來加入幫忙這個部分是不是請次長跟我們署長副署長回去來關心這個議題看看哪裡可以來協助可以嗎"},{"start":7506.409,"end":7522.966,"text":"我們會全力來瞭解那目前6月2號我們關公署也要邀請評鑑委員那原則上這個部落會議只要同意大概就可以拿住現在就部落會議我還要跟原民會議我是建議部落會議的時候麻煩你們副本行文也請原民會"},{"start":7524.187,"end":7542.217,"text":"他來協助啦好不好幫忙一下桃園市政府然後還有一些部落是宜蘭的大家一起地方政府來追著配合好不好來努力希望有進度是那最後啊本來要問署長的好啦就簡單來講今天拿到你們的一個報告觀光署的一個報告因為我們"},{"start":7543.257,"end":7560.856,"text":"真的今天很多的呂素月從大概這個月初打電話給我很多相關的問題結果我也看到你們也有注意到這個問題你們報告特別講呂素月 協業圈工你們振興改善的一個計畫我特別把你們的重點列出來1 2 3 4 5我就不重新念了"},{"start":7562.217,"end":7582.867,"text":"呂素月缺工到放寬實習生包括這個禮拜的僑外生我們都有看到可是我就覺得很奇怪寫這報告的是副組長嗎副組長這報告誰寫的是哪一個處寫的還是哪一個科寫的寫的真的還不錯是哪一個哪一個科寫的舉手一下誰寫的你寫的嗎同仁寫的我的天啊"},{"start":7588.84,"end":7612.896,"text":"我的意思說你寫了這麼多你有沒有注意到你寫的年度坦白講我們半年聽你我們這次專案報告我們要最新的資料我們要署長現在上任四個月他最新的一個政策他自己的政策你不要告訴我歷史上的我們做了什麼事情你自己看喔從112年到最後一條130年10月你看右邊現在放出來給你看"},{"start":7614.611,"end":7630.63,"text":"第一條張錫聰 周永輝 局長 署長他們認定第二條一樣第三條張錫聰完成了政策第四條周永輝第五條周永輝你寫這個報告給我我就覺得不是不行"},{"start":7631.511,"end":7656.088,"text":"可是在中間來講我們的署長我們現在的一個部長在今年度我們不然每年給你預算幹嘛我明年給你預算做什麼你說我還要怎麼樣去做所以我是建議我們署長也好部長也好未來除了這些歷史上的你自己署長你新的署長你在每一個政策你都要具體可行的目標讓大家有感來努力好不好"},{"start":7657.79,"end":7673.25,"text":"跟委員報告就是署長努力就是放寬外籍技術工的部分因為今天才核定所以來不及更新 今天核定好今天嘛好我們希望你真的要努力其實產業界很辛苦 謝謝"},{"start":7675.851,"end":7703.918,"text":"好 謝謝也跟魯明哲委員報告這個之前要資料本席跟您一樣也都一直沒有辦法更新到資料但是我們排了今天的專案報告之後就很巧的今天行政院院會也拍板說今天要核定所以如果說真的是這樣的話那以後我們就多排一些關心的專案報告那看可能就會督促行政部門有更新的進度好 謝謝再來請林俊憲委員質詢"},{"start":7707.617,"end":7724.487,"text":"來 主席 本來是邀請我們交通部林次長來 次長請公安署誰要選 副署長還是 委員長好 次長長是次長你現在知道大部分的人在旅行"},{"start":7725.703,"end":7754.836,"text":"其實他安排行程上所有必要的很多東西都是在透過網路的平台這種叫OTAOnline Travel Agent你知道吧你現在在上面幾乎可以安排所有的東西訂房間以外 機票 租車門票 套裝行程整套的都有在賣那以前這種網路上的這種OTA這種平台那誰在管"},{"start":7756.772,"end":7763.072,"text":"觀光署一直看起來好像是觀光署要管嘛但以前觀光署說網路上的東西還不知道誰要管"},{"start":7764.455,"end":7794.035,"text":"行政院在今年6月有發布了一個網際網路內容管理基本規範及分工原則因為現在網路上什麼東西都有那到底是什麼樣的動態什麼樣的業務行動有哪個部會管做了一個很明確的跨部門之間的分工機制所以行政院現在把觀光署就定為網路的這些OTA業者的主管機關市長先讓你知道這個事情副市長是吧"},{"start":7796.136,"end":7815.908,"text":"因為OTA現在業務非常蓬勃所以你不得不管它否則會越來越混亂我舉幾個例子我們台灣有一位非常知名的旅遊的YouTuber他在網路上的名字叫老爸"},{"start":7817.009,"end":7845.105,"text":"他是一個台灣的網紅他經常介紹他怎麼去旅行他都是透過使用平台來訂購住宿或機票結果他傳了一個影片分享他在SkyScanner這個也是一種網路平台他在買航班的時候看到有一個機票網站他就買了比航空公司的官網還便宜2000塊他當然買所以他從西雅圖機場準備登機的時候被攔下來說那機票有問題"},{"start":7847.162,"end":7872.736,"text":"所以在平台上這種商業糾紛很多恐怕會越來越多所以你透過這個平台買票到底有沒有保障如果沒有保障你可能遭到詐騙今天還有一個例子這個也是一個民宿這個民宿也是蠻有名的它在九份九份這家民宿民眾要去住的時候發現他被無預警的撤銷他的訂單"},{"start":7875.014,"end":7904.541,"text":"去的時候不能住啦他的訂單被取消啦然後他被以兩結果他同樣的房間被這個民宿業者用兩倍的價格重新上架更誇張的是後來他去查才發現這個民宿業者根本是非法旅宿啦那網路上OTA上面賣的上面的到底那麼多的旅遊那麼多的消費者都在上面來購買各式各樣的東西各項的服務那有沒有保障來 誰來回答"},{"start":7908.07,"end":7908.091,"text":"好"},{"start":7909.432,"end":7937.48,"text":"包委那個非法的部分我們在4月2號的部分已經修正發展官方條例的部分把相關的罰則都提高了我想旅館最高會罰200萬民宿是100萬那如果刊登非法營業訊息的部分最高也可以罰到150萬那我們另外一個做法就是希望這些業者的部分必須把他的合法的旅宿登記證在網路上去呈現表示他是個合法的一個你不能只管旅宿業者啦"},{"start":7938.422,"end":7959.616,"text":"重點是平台我跟你講你現在就是只罰旅宿業者旅宿業者違法當然該罰那現在是你在你這些平台要賺錢要有一點道德良心至少他要自律他要自我規範那我們政府機關是他律我們就管理他"},{"start":7961.141,"end":7985.286,"text":"否則現在就是因為沒有監管依據那你不罰平台 所以我管你合法非法你來我這裡看廣告 我也照單全收 對不對你去哪裡來訂 你這裡有房間我管你是不是政府認定的合法產品或者是一般都 或者是旅宿嘛所以因為現在賣的東西非常多現在連門票 租車 機票 住宿計畫都有"},{"start":7986.851,"end":8010.774,"text":"像這些世界級的 我現在秀給你看 這都很大型 這都不用我介紹agoda trip.com booking.com 這都很大型的但是他們也不敢保證 我也不敢保證上面都是合法的我舉個例子 我就看某一個縣市縣市政府他都會公佈 定期公佈他發現的 他抓到的非法旅宿業者"},{"start":8011.738,"end":8037.329,"text":"那請觀光署你就按照政府公布的這些非法的旅宿業者你去這些平台上面找都可以找到會不會有這種狀況我找給你看會嘛 對不對政府公布這一排這些東西非法但是你在平台上找得到他還在繼續賣所以你要監管的不只是"},{"start":8038.462,"end":8052.755,"text":"旅宿業者或者是賣機票旅行社或者是代理商你不能只管這些你還要管平台因為平台要負起一點責任他要做第一關的把關他要稍微過濾來 表表一下意見"},{"start":8057.098,"end":8079.789,"text":"包委員因為目前這些平台他沒有落地在台灣我們可能就是在部分大概只能就是拜託請他要求他請求他請求他 請求他請求他 請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求他請求"},{"start":8081.075,"end":8104.815,"text":"以前一些社交平台也是這樣啊Meta啊 Google啊政府機關我們也要求數額不等你要去跟他講 你到台灣來賺錢你總要合法合規吧我跟你說新加坡怎麼做啦別的國家做到台灣為什麼你做不到新加坡他甚至規定啦"},{"start":8107.079,"end":8116.923,"text":"一般的旅行社業者以外OTA也算是旅行代理商啦OTA沒有取得新加坡的執照是會受新加坡政府處罰的啦我們政府現在已經把這個業務歸給你觀光署啦你現在 你現在 抱歉啦先給你供預啦你沒辦法再推卸責任啦以前如果跟你說這些你都不是你們管的啦你們不管網路上面的事情啦來 次長"},{"start":8135.339,"end":8157.704,"text":"新加坡政府是連OTA都要求要跟他政府訂執照那日本 韓國並沒有做法又不一樣日本 韓國是要求你OTA必須做第一關來你這邊登廣告的你要看他有沒有合法執照你才可以接受他在你這裡上架"},{"start":8158.752,"end":8186.583,"text":"來做選團日本韓國也這樣做包委 日本韓國這個做法現在台灣應該也可以做我告訴你剛講的我告訴你剛才吹一堆違法 你是就是那些縣市政府查核出來的違法或違規的我們應該要清出來一方面公告給消費者知道 民眾知道第二個我們應該去函給數位部跟這個平台要求它下架這才是對的方式所以我們會朝這邊來做"},{"start":8187.583,"end":8213.028,"text":"另外我們每一年觀光署都有編預算在做一些旅遊景點來宣傳但我發現我們的廣告預算都下在一些現在越來越少人看的地方現在最多人會瀏覽到的眼球數最多的其實也是這裡有OTA你應該廣告也要在上面對不對他跟你業務往來你可以要求他遵守我們的法規"},{"start":8214.537,"end":8233.523,"text":"所以你看香港政府就跟Kloop合作那Trip.com好像有很多國家政府也會跟他來合作韓國 韓國政府就跟Trip.com這種公司來合作因為現在大部分的人在尋找旅遊資訊都會在這種OTA平台"},{"start":8234.875,"end":8263.061,"text":"我們都看在國際的廣告 雜誌 報紙就是說你現在要精準投射你的廣告好不好包括委員OTA的部分我們在各市場的部分有做廣告分攤的部分來行銷台灣產品但因為可能它的受眾是國外的旅客所以我們在台灣並沒有看到因為不同的OTA在不同市場有佔有率我們會依照那你可不可以要求他本地的 你開錢的"},{"start":8264.961,"end":8287.414,"text":"他本來就 他本來就 他有客製化的那種他必須要符合你的廣告需求啊你的手動在這裡移動這樣做啊 好不好好啦 我們主席已經站起來了好 謝謝市長喔 謝謝副市長好 謝謝主席好 謝謝好 那張委員會剛剛有宣布那我們就先休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":8301.783,"end":8313.285,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8336.954,"end":8359.377,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8365.736,"end":8383.575,"text":"大概跟他講過,這次好像不會去,所以其他都得...呃...待會我們走起來吧"},{"start":8386.218,"end":8394.746,"text":"剛有跟他說明一下我剛有跟他說條文也都沒有變他們說原來行政院版本現在國長要加班的加班的"},{"start":8395.973,"end":8412.166,"text":"國民黨團它畢竟這邊多條,然後它這邊又...它太...不管是新旗還是在這邊修正它都條,就比較奇怪你是說誰做的?國民黨啊,國民黨它...它自己頒發嘛對,它自己頒發,然後平時在修正條,它太多條它就是說反正當然都可以,大家坐下來談啊"},{"start":8420.572,"end":8423.994,"text":"你會用我的版 你可以用原來的就拿你待會來跟他講嘛"},{"start":8441.491,"end":8453.346,"text":"坐上 坐上 雙車 媽媽那我們可以找副座嗎就你坐五分鐘啊我也要上車你們要跑 你們要車嘛讓我們招牌"},{"start":8455.608,"end":8456.629,"text":"送到工程會報"},{"start":8492.063,"end":8496.265,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8517.576,"end":8521.317,"text":"多謝您的收看"},{"start":8531.884,"end":8544.236,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8545.237,"end":8554.542,"text":"那它也怪,那你比較平常的就比較痛苦,所以像是因為這裡面,所以它把你放在裡面,很怪。"},{"start":8556.578,"end":8580.728,"text":"對 下午的照片 主持人要比較擔心他從來看不清楚的保護對 大家對這個情形都很舒服 他們也好很溫柔他們也很溫柔 也很溫柔"},{"start":8595.11,"end":8599.453,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8635.874,"end":8641.517,"text":"好 來交通委員會準備開會再麻煩我們的媒體朋友"},{"start":8649.71,"end":8669.016,"text":"好 接下來請徐富奎委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請我們林長賜還有觀光署我們的黃副署長上請 副市長請"},{"start":8675.01,"end":8694.386,"text":"市長 副市長早我想我們交通部在2021年提出的臺灣觀光邁向2025年的一個方案那今年剛好已經屆滿5年那當然目前看起來有一些KPI去年有達標但是有些距離目標還很遠那不曉得我們交通部針對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":8696.487,"end":8721.685,"text":"不管是這個國旅也好 還有國外的旅客這個來臺的觀光人次也好我想剛剛也許多的委員都在提到這個部分那原本我們國旅的部分這個二零二五年旅遊的人次試看一千一百萬消費金額是四千一百億但是距離還有點很遠不曉得我們交通部跟我們觀光署針對這個未來努力的目標是不是有在做調整跟修正"},{"start":8725.238,"end":8746.076,"text":"報告委員我們後五年的目標是希望以提升值我想因為我們台灣的關係它承載量是有一定的上限如果在目前很多在討論所謂的過度觀光的部分所以我們現階段的部分是希望提供來來的部分可以讓我們的當地這些旅遊所以我們有奠定未來五年的目標了嗎"},{"start":8747.257,"end":8755.551,"text":"我們希望就是把那個2030的部分有一個兆元產業包括就是國旅跟國際旅客的部分"},{"start":8756.587,"end":8782.948,"text":"好 我想現在不是只有交通部跟觀光署的官員頭痛我們第一線的觀光的從業人員大家壓力也很大尤其我們這個屏東 我們過去很多的年輕人懷抱的理想到屏東這個投入這個觀光產業 有的甚至去開民宿 現在都很慘這個客源也少然後營運上貸款的壓力也很大 那我想不管是"},{"start":8784.489,"end":8810.235,"text":"從這個整體的經濟面也好我們當然我們先知道臺灣的經濟這個發展非常的好但是我們期待這樣觀光產業一個帶動能夠讓更多的這個觀光的元素能夠增加那所以觀光署目前為了吸引國際觀光客也規劃了很多的方案包含這個消費金的抽獎交通票券來臺機票甚至一些套裝行程的優惠那不曉得觀光署有沒有針對這部分有沒有"},{"start":8810.995,"end":8837.714,"text":"明定我們大概的這個行銷策略的效應在哪裡那個部分是我們會有兩個一個是適用全球一個策略一個各市場的部分會依據各市場的旅客需求去做一個變化我想各個市場有滾動檢討嗎對那因為有些行銷的部分我們可能要去做市場的試驗如果是效益好我們再加嘛效益不好的部分我們可能會來檢討我們的做法再做一個滾動式的一個調整"},{"start":8838.735,"end":8854.456,"text":"好 那不過我還是要提醒就是有一個我們因為觀光署每年會針對國內一些這個國際旅客來臺灣熱門的景點的一個排行那比如說像是目前我們看到的臺北101西門町甚至九份 我想"},{"start":8855.437,"end":8875.35,"text":"根據這個目前的這個觀光 前瞻觀光政策研究室的統計 六都的旅遊人士大為增加 因為六都的財源比較好 他們比較有辦活動 演唱會這個觀光的這個活動也很多所以佔比已經高達72.5%非六都只吸引到27.5%的國際旅客"},{"start":8877.611,"end":8888.691,"text":"那我想這個之前我們的署長也提到說要用三年的計畫來推動北回之巔振興南部的觀光客我想這個目前不曉得這個計畫的進度進度到哪裡"},{"start":8890.472,"end":8913.488,"text":"報告委員 相關計畫部分我們目前提到願待願合訂我們也相關準備工作已經同時展開這部分有個一個政策是希望就是說不要讓遊客集中在大台北都要分流可以做一個分流有關的部分就是可能相關的南部這些景點優化跟行程的串聯我想我們後續展開的部分會持續去推動"},{"start":8914.983,"end":8941.462,"text":"不過這個這個次長跟副處長我還是要提醒我過去很多次也在委員會甚至議員會提到像我們屏東來講我們過去最吃虧就是交通問題這個次長以前在民調局知道嗎我們現在沒有飛機高鐵也沒有到屏東啦鐵路也沒有雙軌道我們怎麼辦對我們來講國外旅客到坐飛機到桃園他要搭高鐵來就一天而已"},{"start":8942.993,"end":8963.381,"text":"對我們來講真的是在旅遊規劃上面很吃虧所耗費的成本也很高未來我想針對這樣一個狀況我們還是要期待交通部優先處理我們的交通問題那甚至我想我們現在許多的部會都在推觀光包含像屏東來講我們有原民有客家有農村有漁村也有市區"},{"start":8964.201,"end":8981.048,"text":"那我們許多的部會會針對不一樣的這個他們各自的業務當然去發展但是我們很擔心一方面疊床加屋一方面沒有整合1加1大於2的力道那這部分觀光署身為一個觀光主管機關是不是有期待做這樣一個部會的一個整合"},{"start":8983.799,"end":8999.237,"text":"報告委員我先說明一下目前在行政院有一個觀光諮詢委員會議這個會議的主要目的就是把各個部會跟觀光有關的都整合在一起上一次會議前幾個禮拜才剛開過"},{"start":9000.758,"end":9020.712,"text":"主席跟我們都要求譬如說相關的部分像原民會文化部這個國家公園署等等這些單位他如果有大型活動或是有一些計畫型的活動應該要提前兩次會議前要把他的資訊放到我們的平台上讓觀光署做統一的宣傳包含國內跟國外"},{"start":9021.292,"end":9037.221,"text":"次長這是你們 平台上來處理 這是你們在會議上你們比較官方的一個處理方式但就我們地方來看我倒覺得很可惜我們一直要強調中央跟地方縣市政府合作的一個機制像依肯定來講觀光署也可以管得到"},{"start":9038.422,"end":9062.614,"text":"國家公益署也可以管得到但是國家公益署他只顧生態他不一定重視觀光那觀光署我也跟署長提過了觀光署是要重觀光所以我們期待我們的部會應該優先去做整併然後再結合屏東縣政府我們怎麼樣把一個活動能夠把地方包含我們一些社團也好把一些這個我們的民宿業者或是旅館業者也好應該整合起來"},{"start":9063.334,"end":9079.208,"text":"讓我們的所謂的一個面向可以點線面把它拉大我不曉得次長有沒有考慮到這些的問題 包委員今天觀光署的專案報告裡面有特別講到一個重點以往是18個觀光圈那我們這一次是整合成北中南東加3個離島"},{"start":9080.569,"end":9102.904,"text":"那所以他最主要的目的就是說 我剛剛報告把中央部位的整合完以後 再跟地方的做整合把他的特色跟亮點 還有區域性的疫情市長這已經說很久了 現在還在說整合會不會太慢這個是一直在做的工作啦 那我剛剛報告延訓院裡面有一個是這個促進產業發展他裡面大概就要協助這些把他的特色找出來"},{"start":9103.864,"end":9118.357,"text":"我是一直期待這個交通部跟觀光署不能只是固步自封啦我真的覺得我也跟署長提過了我要約個時間讓他去聽一聽我們年輕觀光業者的一些心聲他們在觀光這個行業裡面"},{"start":9119.338,"end":9146.233,"text":"招諷的一個困境不只是有觀光署的問題包含像國家公園署裡面的問題也很多我想這個應該要怎麼樣讓這些年輕人他們這麼有勇氣願意投入這個行業但是我們怎麼樣去協助他們讓他們能夠在這條路上行得更順遂行得更好我想這是他們也有很多的創意跟想法讓他們能夠發揮更好的創意吸引更多的國內內委遊客來參觀那我想另外最後一個那個次長"},{"start":9147.333,"end":9163.282,"text":"我一直也提到我們恆春這個五里亭機場的問題那當然我們也感謝民航局針對這個最近辦那個一個陸海空的一個3D的嘉年華活動吸引了非常多的人潮但是我們不是只是要辦機場活化的一個"},{"start":9163.942,"end":9181.4,"text":"我們還是期待這個能夠飛機能夠包機能夠重新從桃園也好松山也好能夠飛到我們的武里亭這個對國外的旅客也好甚至北部的旅客也好節省非常多的時間我想這也是讓杭村武里亭機場可以火化很重要的一個契機"},{"start":9183.221,"end":9198.167,"text":"這部分你能不能願意協助這個部分這個我們觀光署會來處理我們現在有包機補助方案那以往是國際包機這次好像也有談到國內包機的部分我想國內國際已經講很久了都沒起來 國內是不是可以現在啟動應該是華信航空吧"},{"start":9204.529,"end":9228.599,"text":"華信航空我們有找他來那最近應該會去拜訪周縣長包含署長跟民安局長我們都會去拜訪周縣長跟他討論細節市長不要只是拜訪啦真的要落實把這個案子能夠把它促成我們希望能夠有更多這個北部的遊客能夠藉由這樣一個便捷的一個這個包機的一個業務能夠很快速到達我們的恆春目前就是請華信積極來處理包機"},{"start":9230.64,"end":9241.182,"text":"好這部分期待趕快能夠有一個新的進步謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝謝謝好接下來再請陳樹越委員質詢謝謝主席請主席邀請署長觀光署署長陳署長請"},{"start":9266.206,"end":9283.867,"text":"好 謝謝署長早那今天委員會針對就是900萬國際旅客達標的情形及旅宿業缺工情形振興改善措施來進行的專案報告那我們看到本來我們今年度我們設定的目標也是要"},{"start":9284.407,"end":9308.305,"text":"千萬人次嘛那不久前我們又下修了到900萬嘛900萬的這個國際旅客那以目前來說1到7月的這個來台的一個旅客數才480幾萬嘛那在剩下的這個應該不到半年的時間您有信心有把握可以達標嗎900萬人次"},{"start":9312.162,"end":9338.539,"text":"還要再努力一下下還要再努力那你有沒有去因為要努力的話你一定要有方向有策略而且要去檢討我們是不是有哪些問題要去解決我不曉得說我們署長這邊有沒有去相關的一個評估那我先再請教一下因為我們也是根據最近我們公布的113年來台旅客消費及動向的一個調查所以我們也可以看出來就是說"},{"start":9339.6,"end":9367.766,"text":"對於目前來台的這個國際旅客有一些改變就是在疫情前2019年我們看到來台的旅客以觀光為主的有高達75.7%那到去這個2024年就是2013年來台觀光的人數就只有66%那這個數字就是可以看得出來就是說以觀光為目的的來台的這個人數減少了然後就是"},{"start":9369.046,"end":9391.289,"text":"這樣子的一個現象那當然就是我們要去檢討說為什麼就是來台的就是說要來觀光就是想要來玩的這個人會減少了是不是我們沒有很這個具有吸引力的一個觀光的吸引力或亮點吸引國外的旅客想要來"},{"start":9392.63,"end":9403.735,"text":"另外我們也看到在這個調查裡面有顯示到說在2019年來台的旅客裡面第一次來的有占了57%到2024年第一次來台的"},{"start":9409.878,"end":9422.584,"text":"衰退了10%就是只有46%所以就是說我們要怎樣去開拓這個新課員這個可能都是要去檢討跟有一些策略那是不是請署長可以回答"},{"start":9424.059,"end":9443.192,"text":"好 謝謝委員提問因為觀光是這樣它對大環境的敏感性特別的強那我覺得這兩年呢台灣因為天災的關係確實也會造成外籍旅客對於台灣是否安全這件事情有產生一點疑慮我們看到的是這樣子"},{"start":9444.633,"end":9464.148,"text":"當然說開發新課員一定非常重要所以像我們明年度我們明年度大概針對去年跟今年我們在國旅跟國際旅客上面遇到的一些困難我們提出新的一些政策想法包括說像國際旅客我們希望說用重遊客"},{"start":9465.009,"end":9482.627,"text":"因為我們發現來過台灣的人來過台灣的旅客對台灣的喜好感是特別的強所以我們希望有機會邀請他回來等於是有老朋友帶新朋友再來回台灣這個是我們對新的客人希望用的一個策略是"},{"start":9484.569,"end":9510.08,"text":"對 這個想法我本席是滿肯定的因為我有同樣的一個這樣的問題就是剛好想問署長就是說對於再度來台的旅客我們有沒有相關的一個分析就是說在國際旅客來台灣的然後第二次 第三次來台的這個比例有多高那對於未來我們的就是針對這個方向的空間還有多大因為我們比較這個日本"},{"start":9513.141,"end":9538.553,"text":"日本是我們台灣人很想去的一個地方而且可以說是一去再去有的甚至一年去好幾次可能兩次 三次 四次我有聽朋友說他甚至每個月都去一次日本為什麼日本會有那麼高的一個吸引力讓台灣人甚至是其他國家的人很想去署長有沒有去想過"},{"start":9544.125,"end":9568.332,"text":"乾淨舒服自在好買東西也是一種然後第二個是我覺得日本持續也都有推一些新的項目那這點也都是我們應該要再多更多一點的學習是好那其實在署長上任第一次的質詢我就有提到因為署長是來自業界曾經就是擔任過那個松菸這個"},{"start":9572.435,"end":9585.527,"text":"園區的執行長所以當時你也成功的就是帶領這個團隊推動這個場域的轉型然後吸引了超過千萬人次的一個觀光旅客所以我想就是說我們也是希望借重你這樣子的一個"},{"start":9587.347,"end":9605.994,"text":"經營的一個能力所以在你目前到任應該四個月了那在這四個月我不曉得說有新的做法嗎就是說到任之後到現在就是說想要翻轉台灣的觀光你有新的作為了嗎 新的策略了嗎"},{"start":9607.18,"end":9629.427,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會其實我覺得要去翻轉台灣的觀光當然也不是一蹴可乘那當然第一個還是必須先了解問題在哪裡那其實台灣的觀光我覺得政策相關的都有只是我們的系制度可能做得不到位那那些都是需要花時間去調整溝通的那我記得我也跟委員溝通過"},{"start":9630.847,"end":9655.544,"text":"大家覺得台灣的景點或台灣的節慶沒特色那這件事情我們上次也講說我們希望每個地方找到自己的特色所以對於像相關的補助計畫我們也希望加強地方特色的節慶我們再給予多一點的補助這樣子讓每個地方都找到自己的特色那我也不太支持齊頭市平等的補助"},{"start":9656.645,"end":9681.71,"text":"因為這樣的狀況大家都不會好所以還是希望說然後像我們的區域觀光就是我們觀光圈的區域觀光接下來也要採取的是競爭型的計畫是希望由地方主動來爭取他們到底想要怎麼做因為我覺得區域的特色必須由區域自己形塑那當然我們會組一些輔導委員會來協助大家做一些的輔導跟溝通"},{"start":9683.51,"end":9699.941,"text":"那這個是我們一步一步先往前這樣做因為它跟跨區域的部分是有關係的那在我們現在手上的政策我們就希望說朝那個方向來優化以上先這樣說我想就是打造區域觀光新品牌也是"},{"start":9700.521,"end":9719.332,"text":"行政院的一個施政的一個重點所以我覺得說就這樣剛剛署長所回答的事實上也就是說要建立一個觀光的一個品牌是非常一個重要的所以我覺得說我們台灣的觀光不應該還是只是停留在說這個日月潭阿里山"},{"start":9720.432,"end":9745.854,"text":"就是這些舊有的這樣子的一個焦點我想台灣每一個地方都有它的一個特色從北到南那剛剛署長有提到說因為今年這個天災比較多那因為天災就是有一些區域性那其他的地方其實也是還有很多有待努力開發的一個旅遊的景點那以彰化來說就是一個"},{"start":9746.835,"end":9765.262,"text":"一個很有潛力的一個地方啦那我覺得說比較可惜就是說他的這個品牌還有待去再強化那我們也希望就是說在這個部分我們觀光署希望能夠給予大力的一個協助啦那另外就是說對於我們觀光署啊在行銷台灣的這個"},{"start":9768.184,"end":9789.286,"text":"觀光的資源景點我們看到說在中部地區有提到說中部地區包括苗栗縣台中市彰化縣南投縣及雲林縣等五個縣市就我們觀光署的這個網站的內容的描述裡面有提到每一個縣市的"},{"start":9789.907,"end":9802.464,"text":"一個觀光的特色包括說南投的泰雅度假村九族文化村雲林的劍湖山世界等等這一些都點到了唯獨就沒有講到彰化縣署長請問你怎麼看"},{"start":9806.384,"end":9831.514,"text":"這個我們來改進那我在這邊想恭喜我們蘇維委員的彰化上個月我們的台灣設計展在彰化非常的成功那次的展覽基本上應該把我們彰化的不管是產業特色或人文特色都做了一個很不錯的梳理那這些都會成為我們未來在觀光宣傳裡面重要的養分跟題材"},{"start":9832.345,"end":9860.404,"text":"是 因為以我們觀光的統計來看我們彰化縣的鹿港老街在國旅的景點裡面就是以1730萬人次可以說是第一名八卦山國家風景區也以623萬人次拿下國家級的風景區第一名的一個殊榮所以彰化縣不是沒有一個具吸引力的景點可是在我們的網站裡面都沒有提到我覺得這個應該是"},{"start":9862.385,"end":9874.609,"text":"很不應該的地方 跟我們改進是 好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請許智傑委員質詢縣主席 我們先請觀光署陳署長陳署長請"},{"start":9905.105,"end":9932.023,"text":"蘇長好 次長您就坐著一起聽因為我在想說觀光其實將來應該是那個格局要不斷的提升科技經濟 觀光經濟其實未來都是台灣整體要走的道路那我先請教一下之前那個勞動部有已經決定要開放旅宿移工了嗎"},{"start":9934.1,"end":9935.39,"text":"是 今天新聞出了"},{"start":9935.697,"end":9964.556,"text":"今天新聞出來 其實我們也爭取很久了那旅宿業其實也真的是救無綱因為其實它真的是蠻辛苦的所以一直就是包括飯店包括他們的旅遊住宿費用降不下來其實跟缺工也有很大的關聯所以這個其實是一個福音那我想請教一下現在旅宿的缺口大概有多少人"},{"start":9965.296,"end":9985.763,"text":"那未來是否能夠有效改善國旅高昂費用的狀況我們在前年調查的時候是六千六那今年度也正在重新調查所以之前的缺口有六千多人那我們現在預計進來有多少人"},{"start":9994.456,"end":10015.689,"text":"開放外籍的部分就是我們中階技術人力是每開放一個1比1的比例但是國內的員工要先加薪比如說裡面員工薪資最低的就給他加2000加2000就可以多一個外籍移工進來所以有沒有總額的限制那是每一家申請公司的10%"},{"start":10021.809,"end":10047.326,"text":"每一家的10%就是每個旅宿業他員工的10%總員工的10%所以總數應該沒有管制是回到申請單位的限制總數沒有限制好OK那我們希望說因為台灣的旅遊整體來講真的是旅宿業的費用真的是跟國外世界比較起來是偏高所以這個我希望說公共所能夠重視整體來做一個規劃好那這個"},{"start":10051.874,"end":10065.823,"text":"旅宿業之外就是包括這個我也私底下跟署長談過很多次就是這個茂林國家風險區納入大清美地區這個部分我不知道部長跟次長知道了嗎"},{"start":10072.172,"end":10090.672,"text":"次長這個我有跟部長跟次長都有提過那這個部分因為都在進行中這個部分因為它如果是擴大範圍市社跟地方政府跟原民會還有原民部落同意的行政程序所以目前還在持續會診中我希望說那個署長跟次長"},{"start":10091.713,"end":10101.83,"text":"就是能夠盡量加強因為現在的旅遊現在已經慢慢的自由行很多了尤其年輕的這一代他到世界各國玩他都是自由行"},{"start":10102.979,"end":10126.874,"text":"那自由行事實上你應該提供他更多的不同的套裝的行程然後讓他去選擇所以你那個套裝行程要大當然他要選擇裡面幾個點他們年輕人自己會去做決定所以就是說整個茂林國家貨品區我是認為說我們都侷限在以茂林為主其實這個比較狹隘那他跟大清美地區都是一個生活圈"},{"start":10127.854,"end":10151.929,"text":"你可以看到寶萊溫泉 紫斑蝶還有客家文化包括我們本來的原住民文化茂林那邊都是再加上其實我們很多宗教生地有都在那一帶所以如果說把這個茂林國家温泉區擴大範圍包括大清美而且其實我還有一個願望其實我們經常到日本去幹嘛泡溫泉"},{"start":10153.852,"end":10164.581,"text":"那如果說台灣外國旅客到台灣來大部分他就是到北投泡溫泉事實上你到南部來你就來我茂林寶來泡溫泉"},{"start":10165.908,"end":10184.138,"text":"用這樣子一個大點因為人家出去就是吃喝玩樂嘛你有一個點吸引人家比如說我現在溫泉的整個格局需要提高以溫泉當作一個大的點然後其他的我們有很多套裝的再把它相加在一起"},{"start":10185.038,"end":10204.73,"text":"事實上這個來推動我整個茂林大旗美地區的國家風險區我覺得這個概念應該是對於茂林本身也好對於大旗美地區會有蠻大的幫助那這個部分署長應該都同意嘛對不對那目前不知道交通部的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":10207.246,"end":10226.185,"text":"目前因為還在這個應該是原民部落還在討論所以程序上如果這邊的特色夠我們是支持現在就是說把那個該有的協調跟協商溝通程序完成現在是跟原民部落他們意見還不一樣"},{"start":10233.007,"end":10256.121,"text":"我請我們景區組組長來補充 時間各位報告因為我們要成立國家風景區我們是要取得部落的會議同意我們才能夠進行去做這個劃設的動作所以必須要部落會議同意所以我們在持續情報管處跟園民會還有當地的部落持續溝通中OK好 那你們盡量溝通因為其實這對部落一定更好啦"},{"start":10256.741,"end":10280.559,"text":"我們整個把人潮帶進來這部落應該會有蠻大的幫助所以我等一下會跟那個主委現在在我辦公室等下我會再跟他談那這個部分就希望說我們這個公共署 交通部一起能夠幫忙更積極的推動好 剩下一分鐘的時間我想我們再看一下現在整個"},{"start":10282.764,"end":10305.305,"text":"我們華山有區域觀光市集然後還有國際旅展這個我希望說將來有機會多到高雄這個我就不談太深下次再講那我要談的就是說其實你可以看到南台灣南高屏的區域經濟其實將來你們在做思考的時候剛剛我為什麼要提醒說大家盡量去整合思考"},{"start":10306.331,"end":10321.894,"text":"茂林要去整合跟我大清美事實上高雄跟南高坪事實上我們可以一起來做思考因為一個區域經濟大概500萬人口左右那我們這三個城市加起來正好500多萬所以這是一個相當"},{"start":10323.567,"end":10348.962,"text":"方便的思考我舉那個日本周遊券跟那個韓國的轉轉卡現在很多年輕人他們都這麼玩他就是我有一個好玩卡我有一個轉轉卡我就是可以選幾個店選幾個社區開多少隻所以我簡單的報告就是說你可以看到日韓的好玩卡大阪周遊券一兩天清一啦首爾轉轉卡"},{"start":10350.203,"end":10373.454,"text":"兩天穿五 我們高雄好玩卡呢三天穿十 美國本來九一九北北機它比較貴一點 兩天一千九那我現在提出個具體的整理就是說是不是公關署我們規劃一個南台灣好玩卡南高屏好玩卡就是把這個串連在一起你如果去澳洲玩那有的人不知道他的習慣只要去樂區就去花錢你知道嗎"},{"start":10374.214,"end":10392.264,"text":"你用這一個點事實上世界國外旅客他至少來我們會有幾個點讓他去做選擇也告訴他我這裡的特色是什麼所以我希望說我們公共署是不是著手來規劃一個類似北北機好玩卡我要規劃一個南高屏南台灣好玩卡這樣OK嗎"},{"start":10393.004,"end":10420.652,"text":"好 我們來輔導跟協助跟幾個地方政府一起來合作因為這個需要中央的資源挹注啦因為你看縣市一般的 你說高雄市你不記得我們台南市的事情我們屏東關的事情都不好意思啦當然大家互相合作需要由中央來號召來統合或者是來召集這樣子會把這個南高屏的區域經濟生活圈那包括旅遊經濟觀光經濟這個可以一起來做思考"},{"start":10421.232,"end":10438.887,"text":"好所以這個也拜託觀光署可以在這方面著手進行好OK謝謝好謝謝好謝謝對啦把餅做大啦那觀光就是要大家一起來謝謝好接下來再請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席主席我們一樣請觀光署陳署長"},{"start":10449.724,"end":10476.957,"text":"觀光署陳署長請署長辛苦了這個台灣的觀光這個我想你從業界來感受應該非常深刻從數據上來講當然今天的專案報告看起來好像一切都是往好的方向走但是如果我們細究一下江東部觀光署的觀光統計資料庫裡面你看到的是"},{"start":10478.318,"end":10503.252,"text":"來台旅客有分為業務觀光跟其他三種不同的目的那在今年跟去年的相比看起來就以比例來講的話今年來講來辦理業務的就來商務客等等的業務需求的比例下降的觀光的比例也是下降的是其他的比例上升的那到底其他是包含什麼組長可以跟大家說明一下到底其他包含哪些東西叫其他嗎"},{"start":10506.604,"end":10518.568,"text":"教學醫療探親教學醫療探親 還有像宗教的部分也會 工作算不算工作工作他不會算在我們的這個裡面工作算嗎請同事補充嗎因為統計這個資料的 來"},{"start":10535.897,"end":10549.011,"text":"企劃組如果是像參加像那個工作如果像賣屎這種產業就是會展這些的部分啊算是在商務算是算算在我們的這個觀光旅客謝謝那請問移工算哪一種來台的部分算業務"},{"start":10558.806,"end":10580.258,"text":"算業務你看一下我們這個按照如果按照細分東南亞旅客再細分的話這個所謂來觀光的比例以越南跟印尼因為我不確定你們現在講的是算業務但是如果按照各東南亞國家來台灣的比例細分下去你看越南印尼菲律賓泰國馬來西亞"},{"start":10581.84,"end":10611.332,"text":"越南印尼來觀光的比例大概佔了兩成三到兩成六其他的比例高達百分之六十五以上所以其他的比例是高於觀光的那我國就我們體感所見的確近年來自馬來西亞來自菲律賓來自泰國的觀光客確實是比較多一點所以在你們的數據上看得出來也確實觀光比例比其他的比例來得高所以我再跟你確認一下你們那個其他比例是"},{"start":10613.12,"end":10631.765,"text":"只有什麼教育這種這種醫療不包含我們來我們來臺灣的教育醫療的比例有這麼高嗎跟委員報告同仁剛剛表示是說會用到其他部分是他的選項如果是複選以上比如說他來的來這次的目的地是有兩項以上選擇就會納入其他"},{"start":10633.069,"end":10650.515,"text":"因為這個東西為什麼要提這個問題就是報案署長我現在在問的時候你們可能一時間也沒辦法回應我那就會產生一個問題就是我們到底來台的觀光客來台灣這些人他到底來做什麼的如果連觀光署在統計數據上呈現出來之後你們都沒辦法很直接直觀的告訴我們"},{"start":10651.195,"end":10678.426,"text":"那對我來講或對觀光署來講會覺得那是不是現在的很多政策方向無法對症下藥所以我是第一個為什麼先放數據我想要就教說到底這些數據代表了什麼意思這個數據的下降跟上升觀光署要提出什麼對策比如說觀光是下降其他比例上升那就剛剛提到了我再細分下去包含越南印尼的所謂其他比例上升的原因是什麼這個是你們有去研究過的嗎它的到底原因那不然你說你跟我說"},{"start":10679.346,"end":10705.059,"text":"其他的比例以越南印尼為例越南印尼的其他比例遠遠的超過觀光比例它的原因是什麼這確實跟我們現在目前的就是外籍人力來到台灣的部分一定是有正相關的好那為什麼要提這都很正常我是要希望說我們大家誠實的面對數字而已那因為如果你把所謂的外籍移工的比例算進來台旅客的話"},{"start":10705.959,"end":10727.008,"text":"但會有一個問題正常來講當然不是每個人都這樣就是說正常以我所理解的外籍移工他們生活模範一年可能至少回去一次到兩次所以他在你們的統計數據裡面他每年至少就多一次的人次的統計所以在這個情況之下我們的數據會失真因為台灣現在85萬的外籍移工合法的還不管那些逃逸的"},{"start":10727.788,"end":10755.981,"text":"就光是合法的外移工就是85萬人那85萬人每一年來回一次就會計入你們的所謂的來台旅客的這個數量那當然看起來數據上我每年就多85萬人競爭家所以我在覺得在這個數字上我覺得未來你們在算旅客在統計整體數字的時候應該切開來處理真正的到底屬於觀光屬於業務我是來台灣觀光的比例到底多少我是來台灣工作的比例那是另外一件事情因為這些人"},{"start":10756.901,"end":10783.71,"text":"來台灣之後他可能他進入不是所謂觀光的消費市場他進入是其他的一般的民生消費他不是在做觀光的事業嗎署長好跟委員報告就是說我覺得他所有的數據都沒有絕對的精準但是有相對的精準相對的可參考性如果統計方式從以前到現在就是這個樣子所以他還是代表了一種趨勢跟一種現狀這是第一種第二種"},{"start":10785.871,"end":10803.033,"text":"其實縱使是移工啦移工他來台灣可能一待一待三個月像我們過去也推過Long stay對於觀光客來到台灣的Long stay這些他在台灣停留他還是會在台灣產生消費能力 經濟力所以這點上我認為他還是對台灣有幫助的"},{"start":10803.413,"end":10828.735,"text":"好沒有署長我沒有否認他對台灣經濟有幫助剛才提到但是來台的目的不一樣那跟你觀光署的業務我認為是不同的事情他來台灣的消費他來台灣可能要在台灣待個三年到三個月到一年等等不管他短期長期他進入的是整個台灣內區市場的消費那這個跟觀光本身未必是有直接相關這我覺得在政策上面"},{"start":10829.335,"end":10853.1,"text":"我們要吸引比如說在最近推什麼吸引東南亞的旅客來台灣所以在比如說馬來西亞跟泰國我們可能做的就很成功在比例上看起來是這樣沒錯但是如果單看以東南亞為例那越南 印尼它來的這個觀光比例相對就比較低嘛那比如說我們在希克的部分可能對越南 印尼的這些旅客來沒有這麼高的吸引力所以我覺得這個數據上還是要把它講清楚那因為今天檢討當然是說"},{"start":10855.359,"end":10875.609,"text":"我們立場當然要檢討說那我們要怎麼樣提升我們的數據當然你剛剛說過去這幾年都是這樣算的但是因為估計這幾年這樣算我們的觀光的這個數字或是我們觀光的這整個的業績就是沒有特別的提升所以我們才希望說在統計數據上能夠更明確讓我們更清楚地掌握到業務上的數據那再來還有一個問題就是說"},{"start":10877.31,"end":10891.827,"text":"不管是從剛剛的數據紀念你們官方提供的報告還是我們從其他商業網站上取得的數據就入境旅遊某種程度上它是整體是下降了一年的觀光人次在2019年是人數上的高峰那這兩年"},{"start":10892.968,"end":10904.075,"text":"來講還沒有回到那個時候的需求但是我國的旅宿業整體來講我們當然可能經濟特別好又怎麼樣旅宿業其實整體是增加疫情前只有1276812768家疫情後到現在為止到目前我們最新數據大約是15721家所以整體增加了23%那"},{"start":10913.241,"end":10921.474,"text":"總房間數增加1.5萬那這樣子會不會造成供需上面有些什麼問題還是說我們在品質的管控上觀光署有掌握到這樣數據的呈現嗎"},{"start":10924.091,"end":10945.672,"text":"謝謝委員 委員提的這個問題確實我們也看見了最主要增加最多的是民宿 民宿大概就增加了大概20我記得20 30%的這個數字那這件事情我是認為說其實全球都在疫情的時候 臺灣的國旅是不錯的所以當時的需求是高的"},{"start":10946.292,"end":10970.158,"text":"那但是疫情結束之後相對的大家就瘋出國了所以這塊現在目前看起來需求是下降所以看起來會覺得說是功過於求主站起來最後一分鐘這個下一張剛剛這個署長在報告說說我們現在推廣觀光很多時候是跟旅行社來合作但是我們也是取了一個數據現階段從這個我們從2019年所謂疫情之後"},{"start":10973.999,"end":11001.489,"text":"整個亞太地區他去出國觀光的這個方式從以前傳統來講大量使用旅行社2019年的時候全亞太地區大概百分之五十過五成的人他會使用所謂線下的方式找旅行社然後只有兩成的人他是透過網路訂購等等那OTA就是所謂像booking.comagoda或是chipadvisor之類這些網站他那時候就兩成五疫情前是這樣但是這幾年不斷的提升到了今年"},{"start":11003.255,"end":11030.837,"text":"到去年跟今年 大概提到三成五三成六左右的這個比例是使用所謂的平台訂購票物或訂購它的這個旅程網路訂購的比例也快到三成那反而是傳統旅行社的模式它下降的降到四成以下所以未來我想我們在推廣國際觀光的時候觀光署在思考這問題的這個方向不應該只限於旅行社應該去想辦法去跟這些平台業者合作推一些"},{"start":11031.839,"end":11038.217,"text":"推卸優惠也好或推卸這個套裝行程也好而不是只找旅行社我不知道署長這個方向上你們會往這方調整嗎"},{"start":11039.151,"end":11061.044,"text":"有的我們16個駐外單位原則上都是有跟OTA當地的OTA平台合作然後我們在國內的部分我們也在上上禮拜才找所有的OTA平台一起來商量大家如何一起來努力不管是國際旅客送進來或者是國內的國旅這塊希望大家都可以一起來為國旅打拚 謝謝"},{"start":11061.564,"end":11087.896,"text":"好 署長謝謝我想就是要隨著科技跟商業市場的變化我們觀光署要努力的迎合這個市場好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請陳雪森委員質詢好 謝謝趙偉是恭請我們林次長林次長請"},{"start":11092.034,"end":11120.053,"text":"市長 早好久不見 本來不想找你上來好久沒見 謝謝委員前幾天總諮詢前天我提到北竿機場施工的方式 辦辦公的方式因為施工時間實在太長了痛苦級很高我左思右想五月夢回我想起來台中清泉崗那邊是辦辦公"},{"start":11122.085,"end":11142.644,"text":"小港那邊也有啦用辦辦公的方式來做檢討鄉親的痛苦期民航局是您督導的嘛那我有跟你們委辦單位是台灣港務公司港務公司有跟他們講過了那拜託你跟何局長講一下好不好"},{"start":11143.928,"end":11163.465,"text":"是 報委員您知道他做的是跑道的延長所以他是跑道延長對 沒錯海面的工程沒錯那我們飛機在跑道起落的時候那個地方不能有障礙物啦所以這一塊我們盡量來跟工法調整看看看有沒有空間你們盡量做嘛對 因為那邊如果有任何"},{"start":11164.566,"end":11191.738,"text":"因為他延長了50公尺 等於是填土嘛填土為提供層等於的不止50 應該是500500 對不起啊500啦那我覺得他的沉箱跟消波塊可以盡量在因為我們這次也非常感謝港務公司願意來協助港務公司又來我們朝這個方向走好不好那你請回好不好 謝謝因為時間我要找這個陳組長"},{"start":11196.328,"end":11223.675,"text":"稍微請陳署長陳署長請陳署長聽說你身體微漾是 但是我還是很想見到大家報病 報病成功所以為了不加重你的病情所以今天我講話要小聲一點很像是這樣馬祖區域的觀光圈聽說你們觀光署最近有成立18個觀光圈"},{"start":11225.253,"end":11242.635,"text":"中間包含 其中包含了北中南台東還有雞馬棚三個離島對 本來是18個後來變成7個就是北中南東加三個離島能不能說明一下還是請我們旁邊的林署長"},{"start":11244.07,"end":11270.195,"text":"那個連組長來 好不好 不讓你講太多話了好不好 跟委員報告因為我們原先推動了18個觀光圈是歷經了5年的的努力那後來署長認為說18個觀光圈對行銷來講會有自愛所以我們分為4個北中南東4個觀光圈再加上3個離島分別7個觀光圈是為了推向國際然後國民旅遊的"},{"start":11271.155,"end":11298.681,"text":"行銷比較方便那分別四個區域跟三個離島除了金門以外由我們國民旅遊組親自操刀其餘都是由我們的主責管理處13個管理處上線林主長妳也常病毒嗎 沒有吧我看妳戴口罩對 我怕被雙傳染妳怕被雙傳染喔是喔 怕被傳染喔會那再找一個人上來傳染一下"},{"start":11301.638,"end":11328.713,"text":"去年 馬祖很慘馬祖那個旅宿 叫苦連天疫情過後 去年觀光客我們很像不如預期主要當然這裡面還有一些缺工的問題因為旅宿裡面洗床單 備單所以這一方面如果有的話請你們跟勞動部講一下能夠開放對這些外籍勞工多開放來協助我們離島發展"},{"start":11334.103,"end":11339.729,"text":"另外就是高登島高登島當然是國防部的權責單位我是覺得金門大膽二膽都已經開放了"},{"start":11346.378,"end":11373.532,"text":"請觀光署能不能行文給國防部因為我覺得你們去講話比較有力量上面大概兵力不多二三十個人二三十個人守那個島有什麼意義呢讓觀光客也上去嘛 上島嘛現在專案是可以啦尤其這些老兵啊什麼的特許那是可以上島那我去了很多次因為那個資源裡面上面高登島上面的資源蠻豐富的"},{"start":11374.783,"end":11378.334,"text":"蠻豐富的 是不是署長能不能幫個忙 詢問給國防部好不好"},{"start":11379.902,"end":11406.16,"text":"好 那我們因為過去已經兩度行為那拜訪軍方協調一直都沒有成果那我們會持續來協調國防部開放那也會拜託交通部是不是有協請交通部我看你們努力的程度你公文不停的去我會努力的我想他們應該會協助馬祖畢竟已經開放光光了是不是他那個倒拿的對上面的兵來講的話"},{"start":11407.681,"end":11433.853,"text":"非常寂寞 二十幾個人是不是 日子一久了同性戀都有可能二十幾個而已另外就是燈會今年台灣要辦燈會嗎今年燈會在桃園每年都有嘛 對在哪裡今年是在桃園 明年是在嘉義在嘉義我是說台灣有大燈會我們金門馬祖澎湖應該有小燈會"},{"start":11436.055,"end":11451.349,"text":"你們會補助我們錢嗎 尤其過年我記得 元宵啊 有有有會嗎 已經送進來 已經也審那個你們有打回縣政府去了嘛縣長有找我有請他修正一下"},{"start":11452.398,"end":11467.278,"text":"說這個錢一定要有會有嗎有 已經OK了OK了沒有 已經核定了不過沒關係你不OK的話正好在省預算省預算要有就有沒有的話大家一起沒有我們很願意連嘉義也不用了"},{"start":11467.899,"end":11491.044,"text":"跟委員報告我們很願意協助地方政府找到地方的節慶活動那當時他們第一次提的版本就比較不符合我們的補助要點所以希望他們再修正一下大概是這個樣子署長這樣我拜託你們的事你們沒答應我就不要答應我答應我的就要去做我再跟你重複一遍好不好"},{"start":11491.86,"end":11517.535,"text":"你們如果答應我了你要去做你就要去做你如果不去做我就會很生氣我生氣不是只生氣一兩個鐘頭我會生氣很久很久好不好我看到你生氣很久沒有看到我生氣很久了好不好我覺得大家講話都要算話哪一件事我也不講了好不好我覺得大家講好的事情國檢次長你在那邊笑什麼本席在質詢你可以笑"},{"start":11519.076,"end":11537.806,"text":"好啦沒事啦 他是我兄弟沒事那謝謝署長 謝謝趙偉我沒有耽誤你時間嘛我時間到趕快下台非常好 時間管理非常好謝謝 謝謝陳雪生委員 謝謝署長接下來請邱若驊委員質詢"},{"start":11548.872,"end":11554.701,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請光光署陳署長也請副署長陪同陳署長副署長請"},{"start":11571.388,"end":11592.561,"text":"委員好署長好署長 我在這份報告看到來台旅客的現況你們有說到較去年同期成長9%然後另外也公布114年1到7月實際來台的旅客突破478萬人次然後分別是也有提到像日本還有大陸 美加就是各地區的成長幅度"},{"start":11593.021,"end":11603.287,"text":"可是我們在國際的觀光競爭中卻是落後的我們來看2023年旅客回流的比較日本已經恢復到疫情前的85%那韓國也恢復到80%泰國恢復了百分之韓國恢復到90%泰國恢復到80%那我們台灣署長您覺得我們恢復到多少個%"},{"start":11614.901,"end":11630.09,"text":"今年底算應該會在七成還是稍微落後因為這是2023年的數據那台灣在疫情之後只恢復了60%左右那同樣解封跟這些亞洲國家比起來為什麼我們台灣是落後的您認為呢因為是什麼環節沒有跟上是我們的行銷是服務還是我們的品牌還是我們根本沒有方向而且定位也不清楚"},{"start":11642.628,"end":11671.267,"text":"其實影響觀光的項目真的是蠻是蠻容受大環境的影響像去年我們是有0403就是我們花東的地震今年又有風水災的部分這件事情對我們也是會有影響那像關稅啦匯率啦還有我們整個就是疫情之後呢缺工的問題是也蠻明顯的那您認為要請教就是台灣的觀光定位是什麼"},{"start":11673.171,"end":11700.534,"text":"我們台灣觀光的定位觀光立國觀光立國我們的定位在哪裡那奧本希舉例像日本的話他們是用地方敘事來做回訪率在日本我們可以看到他們的地方創生還有文化體驗的旅行然後還有他們每個縣市都有明確的故事那在韓國我們也看到他用文化情感作為品牌記憶譬如說他們的K-culture K-food還是他們的K-tourism"},{"start":11700.914,"end":11721.802,"text":"我們可以看到他們用韓劇他們用韓劇或是用他們的韓團作為觀光的新盈利那泰國呢他們用服務的體驗然後來拉長停留的天數那比如說他們Long Stay非常友善那也願意讓旅客所以也願意停留更久嘛他們也拼CP值而且他們的服務的體系是非常完整的"},{"start":11722.082,"end":11749.701,"text":"他們政府怎麼留住觀光的就是他們觀光服務的人才他們是有一套職業系統的他們不單只是補助而已署長再來我們看到新加坡他們有國家活動的策略那他們做國際的能見度他們辦理國家級大型的活動他們有都市的品牌經營他們有F1賽事那甚至從踏進機場我們就可以看到他們的機場就是一個特色景點那我們台灣呢請署長回答"},{"start":11750.902,"end":11776.532,"text":"跟委員報告其實台灣70%到60%都是山脈給覆蓋的所以台灣的自然景觀是非常有特色的那第二個是台灣的文化歷史脈絡我們的文化多元多元性也是很多國際人士來到台灣非常喜歡的書長既然您提到就是我們的文化還有我們的自然景觀當然是非常的多元豐富那您認為國外旅客對於台灣的觀光印象是什麼"},{"start":11778.835,"end":11792.143,"text":"安全方便但是也有對於自然景觀我們前陣子九月份才剛做完所有出國參展回來之後大家同意的調查報告也特別提到也是這三項"},{"start":11793.223,"end":11813.3,"text":"對於我們的美食 多元文化跟自然景觀都是印象最深刻的但對於台灣就是覺得安全跟方便安全跟方便 好那觀光署針對入境的旅客有做一份調查那也包括日本的JTP海外旅遊的它的意識調查還有韓國的HRI文化觀察報告"},{"start":11813.94,"end":11836.227,"text":"那其中本席也看到全球觀光的網站像是TreeAdvisor Reddit這樣的論壇還有Lonely Planet就是旅遊者的討論資料彙整下來討論我們台灣的觀光他說國際旅客對台灣的印象有三大正面還有三大的不足我們需要來更加的提升那通常有人情味台灣人非常的友善那這是最容易被記住的"},{"start":11836.767,"end":11865.358,"text":"那同樣也覺得我們的飲食非常多樣然後街頭很有活力像是夜市早餐文化還有便利商店那旅客來到台灣會覺得生活感很強那我們的交通系統也相對的是完善的高鐵台鐵還是捷運的密度非常高那很現實的問題我們也要注意到就是國外旅客實際的反應就是我們的景點記憶不強覺得台灣不錯可是沒有覺得什麼是must see非看不可還有非去不可的地方那再來我們的國外的旅客也有提到"},{"start":11867.692,"end":11885.718,"text":"換句話說這就是缺乏我們台灣缺乏品牌故事喔文化跟城市的敘事感非常弱我來到了這個城市我來到了台灣可是我們來到台灣的城市可是我不知道到了哪裡通常除了我們講說101還是日月潭非常國際知名的景點之外那其他的城市呢"},{"start":11888.027,"end":11905.559,"text":"委員說得是其實我也同意委員提的這個意見因為像我自己上任之後也到處去看相關的景點或者是區域的部分我就有發現我們很容易講我有什麼我有什麼但是你有什麼不等於消費者有興趣的什麼"},{"start":11907.041,"end":11921.358,"text":"我就發現到最後就是會變沒有記憶點我們發現我們能很多樣性但是最後沒有記憶點這是我們現在的問題這也是為什麼我們現在要去加強所謂的區域觀光圈的這個部分"},{"start":11922.018,"end":11944.231,"text":"希望因為現在的旅遊模式還是回到一個區域旅遊的模式那多數人認識台灣大概一定認識台北所以他會留在台北旅遊北北街頭所以我們希望說有機會讓中南部的觀光記憶點要再更明顯一點那本席也在這份報告看到我們就是也就是我們的"},{"start":11945.291,"end":11968.474,"text":"目前還是數量導向我們講說要辦活動要拼補住還有我們在計人次可是根據世界觀光組織他有做一個調查目前全球觀光競爭的指標他已經從人數轉向回訪率還有停留的天數還有消費旅遊消費的結構品質那觀光署有沒有注意到這一點我們有沒有去調查我們旅客的回訪率"},{"start":11969.305,"end":11986.138,"text":"是的有的我們謝鳳姐旅客回訪率大概是五十幾%其中最高的回訪率最高的一定是交通比較方便就是旅程比較近一點的地方我聽說我們港澳大概是一年大概有的會來五次左右的部分"},{"start":11986.818,"end":12015.99,"text":"所以距離比較近一點我覺得這是因為時間短的關係比較近的關係那針對其他地區所以其他的部分還要再努力那現在整個消費額比較高的比如說日日消費美國是最高的接下來是歐洲第三大市那他們的停留天數大概大約是多久大約是幾天歐美大概是在12天到14天然後韓國日本相對大概四五天甚至有時候最近因為距離更近一點有時候會在三天四天大概是這個樣子"},{"start":12016.57,"end":12030.461,"text":"OK 希望觀光署還是可以加強我們全台各縣市多去盤點凸顯我們各縣市的觀光的它的特色然後同時也把這些特色介紹給國際的觀光旅客我們會努力 謝謝好 謝謝邱若驊委員謝謝好 接下來再請賴慧媛委員質詢"},{"start":12045.424,"end":12050.926,"text":"謝謝主席 請常務次長還有觀光署署長林次長 陳署長請次長 在丹納斯丹納斯風災其實台南的觀光產業也是受到很大的一個重創那我針對的後壁火車站它這是一個非常有文化"},{"start":12069.611,"end":12089.248,"text":"有歷史價值他其實他建制是在日記時代35年就1902年其實他保存的非常好可是在這一次丹麗絲颱風也被重創了非常的厲害這是我的故鄉他是臺灣稻米的一個重鎮"},{"start":12090.569,"end":12112.231,"text":"那我們希望就是說這一個台南市的歷史建築他已經被列為台南市的市定的歷史建築那我們希望就是說在這一次的災後的重建其實我大概大概每個禮拜都會去看他每個禮拜都會去看他我覺得就是說事實上這種修繕"},{"start":12114.072,"end":12139.098,"text":"速度一直非常非常的緩慢所以我這裡特別拜託次長因為這個必須要是跨部會他必須要是交通部文化部還有台鐵的一個協助我們希望投入一個比較完整的一個經會因為在全台灣其實大概就是10座這樣的一個木造那個車站所以就是說特別跟次長做這樣的一個提醒跟拜託謝謝委員 這個我會請台鐵公司來處理"},{"start":12143.379,"end":12164.242,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝次長 次長你請回座署長在今年的8月6號我們一起就是在那個財政委員會就是召委 我當初是財政委員會的召委 我們一起召開丹納斯風災的觀光產業災後的一個重建的一個座談會 那我主張就是說"},{"start":12165.062,"end":12187.394,"text":"災後立即的一個修復還有產業的一個紓困的協助還有區域觀光的一個再造那當然就是說在這過程裡頭我們特別看到了針對那個台南的兩個點一個是那個北門鎮壓咖鎮壓咖這一個點你們快速的修復了因為基本上他是一個比較簡單的"},{"start":12188.795,"end":12203.169,"text":"然後將軍馬沙溝這一個這一個災後的一個那個重建基本上就是說看起來速度非常的緩慢尤其到那個10月17號才把鑑定的討論完成"},{"start":12204.71,"end":12228.718,"text":"那在這個另外另外的那個馬沙溝的游泳池大樓他的檢疫修繕一直要到116年才開放所以就是說有一些是提前完工了有一些是部分那甚至到後面你看馬沙溝這個是要加速那是不是能加速這一個進度特別要跟那個婷婷署長你怎麼講"},{"start":12231.519,"end":12250.244,"text":"謝謝委員我記得上次有跟委員討論到這件事情就是說因為那個地方是蠻重要的一個地方那這次受損確實也是蠻嚴重的那我們是認為說有必要重新再定位一下他未來的招商他適合什麼樣的類型那你的計畫呢計畫出來了嗎"},{"start":12252.967,"end":12272.842,"text":"還沒好 沒有關係顯然是沒有 調不到那我想這個是加速那在這裡再跟署長做一個探討就是產業上的一個紓困那我也一直跟你們建議說比照那個武漢會員觀光紓困的報告裡頭我們是不是不要用貸款"},{"start":12273.402,"end":12297.259,"text":"而是用紓困金 不要用貸款 用紓困金這個其實會比較積極的就是說那個照顧到照顧到我們的產業 產業的一個恢復你這個貸款給他增加額度 貸款還是要還那我們希望就是用一個紓困的模式是不是用紓困金的一個模式 這個我們也請署長你再拿回去做一個探討"},{"start":12298.52,"end":12308.395,"text":"為什麼 修好了還是要熱起來熱起來的話當然就是說我們希望你這些活動要多辦那多辦的話台南就是一個"},{"start":12309.727,"end":12335.866,"text":"就是一個古廟之都 我們在台南我們的廟宇有四千多間所以就是說 是不是可以做這樣的一個連結因為我們看到了是說 受災受災的一個景點 事實上人數是變少了我們回到上一頁那可是 可是說人數變少了那這個板塊的移動就回到新的一個區域裡頭去你看光是南昆森帶天虎 他"},{"start":12336.466,"end":12357.691,"text":"每個月減少十萬多人每個月減少十萬多人那甚至就是說你那個北門的鎮壓咖他跌幅是九成那重建我覺得是不是只有修繕那你啟動了一個人潮那你結合新的活動這個更重要你們那一天那個八月八月六號去那個座談會我跟你說署長"},{"start":12359.051,"end":12378.208,"text":"我不好意思說你是糊弄我你那一些活動都是舊瓶裝新酒那個毫無創意那只是舊的活動你可能剛接署長你不了解我抱歉給你吐因為你有很多很多的那個那個產那個產業在那個地方你光是一箭酸雕這個已經辦了12年了"},{"start":12383.293,"end":12396.17,"text":"確實有部分是原有的計畫但是是擴大辦理但是也有新增的計畫大概是六個有些新增的計畫也是希望說藉這個機會趕快把它給重振振興起來"},{"start":12397.372,"end":12423.197,"text":"我想署長因為時間有限了我不再跟你深入的探討擴大辦理那如果這樣一箭雙雕還是講那個那個昆森丸平安研究還是你最有品牌的兩個馬拉松自行車的一個一個自行車活動一個馬拉松的一個活動你去看看經費不要是下面跟你講什麼你就講什麼這個我們有一個比對事實上活動還是"},{"start":12424.898,"end":12428.523,"text":"就憑新裝好不好 那署長加油 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":12450.575,"end":12467.243,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請林次長還有我們陳玉秀署長 次長署長請好 次長午安 委員好我想先就叫我們交通部針對"},{"start":12468.991,"end":12489.997,"text":"目前我們宜蘭的相關觀光的量能我一直期待說宜蘭縣能夠成為我們全台最大的一個觀光大縣之前也就教過我們署長就是針對宜蘭縣是否可以另外再單獨成立一個"},{"start":12491.197,"end":12517.824,"text":"這個風景區管理處那因為署長也大概說明了一下那我也不再這個追問這個問題了那在這個整個宜蘭縣的部分我們是不是可以朝向一個這個觀光圈的模式來進行針對我們的生態文化還有在地產業的資源怎麼去做串聯希望能夠有效的把這個觀光的這個產能把它活化起來"},{"start":12518.644,"end":12536.628,"text":"那近期內我們在推動的這個宜蘭的北方的這個魚鐵五魚村那我想請教就是後續相關的軟硬體設施還有我們相關的觀光行銷的配套活動等等這個部分我們目前這個辦理的情況如何我這個是不是請我們林組長因為軟硬體的部分他比較熟好"},{"start":12549.71,"end":12569.95,"text":"因為我想宜蘭五漁村的推動我們東北角管理處現在客鎮積極的在對於那個五漁村如何做行銷推廣的有一個委辦案今年年底會完成那完成之後我們可能就按照他的結論事項我們就逐一的去去實現這樣子"},{"start":12571.701,"end":12586.586,"text":"好 就都在掌握相關的期程都在進行當中那未來我想因為宜蘭縣本身它這個海岸線就非常的長100多公里那我們北邊有一個這個頭城的漁鐵五漁村"},{"start":12589.281,"end":12609.33,"text":"那南邊從蘇澳到南澳的部分我們是不是也可以試著來規劃一個相關的鐵道觀光的一個路廊也能夠來活化我們南方這個宜蘭的南邊的這些我們觀光景點有沒有可能可以 我們來演繹可以啦 演繹看看那在"},{"start":12611.364,"end":12633.776,"text":"下個會期或是在有機會的時候我可能這個議題我會再請教署長看有沒有什麼進度好另外在我們這個觀光旅宿業方面目前許多業者一直在這個反映的就是缺工的問題缺工的問題那我想就這個問題我想請教我們交通部這邊對於我們整個"},{"start":12637.678,"end":12644.783,"text":"全國缺工的問題在觀光旅宿業我們有沒有什麼相對應的方式可以來協助他們解決這個困難"},{"start":12650.677,"end":12675.958,"text":"剛剛有說明過一個是我們把僑外生擴大他留任那第二個是增加外籍工讀生來台的這個誘因那另外有一個議題就是今天行政院會剛剛討論通過了這個中階人力技術人力可以放在四個工作位置上 是 這個是新增了幾項那我想這幾項如果細節我是不是請觀光署來說好 好 署長"},{"start":12683.395,"end":12704.76,"text":"就是說那個剛 剛公佈的這個中間技術人力呢是本國的勞工加薪兩千同步就可以新增一名那個中間技術人力那是外籍移工嗎 增加的部分是外籍移工 對然後他的總人數不能超過該呃就是旅宿總人數的十趴 十趴 對這是相關的辦法"},{"start":12705.64,"end":12726.758,"text":"好 那這個問題我想是今天比較新的一個訊息那後續的部分我還是請我們交通部觀光署這邊能夠積極的來關心這個議題另外最後一個問題就是我想請教一下我們觀光署曾經推動這個自助入住機的首次購入的補助"},{"start":12729.921,"end":12739.036,"text":"那在宜蘭縣從109年到現在只有11家申請那這到底是什麼原因是因為不好用還是說有什麼其他的原因"},{"start":12743.68,"end":12764.187,"text":"這主要是因為我們有些條件房間數要20間以上有規模的才可以然後如果是背包客背包客棧模式的話床位必須60張以上他才就等於是床位數必須客房數的三倍他才能申請那是宜蘭縣的這些觀光旅宿業相對比較小符合這個條件的比較少嗎"},{"start":12767.253,"end":12786.187,"text":"我們會再繼續鼓勵他們 好 看能不能下修這個我們限縮的條件讓這些觀光旅宿業他們要申請有機會 好以上謝謝謝謝來接下來再請 謝謝接下來再請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":12798.416,"end":12800.284,"text":"趙偉我們麻煩請觀光署署長好 請沈署長"},{"start":12813.174,"end":12829.864,"text":"署長好 署長我想針對一次性這個備品的禁令來做一個討論其實這種一刀切進旅宿的一次性用品的做法我已經聽到不只是我們一般民眾的反應還有國外賓客的反應甚至是包含旅宿業者也有反應"},{"start":12831.105,"end":12854.017,"text":"我認為每一個旅宿業者他都有自己決定怎麼樣可以兼顧環保怎麼樣兼顧禮賓怎麼樣兼顧便利怎麼樣能夠增加他們自己的這個飯店也好精品旅館的這些特色可是這種一刀切的做法你會說可以在櫃台拿你會說可以用其他的方式去補助但事實上就不是事實上我們現在在國內旅遊的時候旁邊就是販賣機就是販賣這些一次性的這個備品"},{"start":12856.758,"end":12876.798,"text":"事實上就是說他們把這個消費者的這個金額他們沒有把它降低啊是轉嫁給消費者啊我認為作為觀光署的署長我們這個國家是多元的價值立場沒有任何一個族群任何一個人可以把他自己的價值觀強壓在其他人的身上"},{"start":12877.418,"end":12901.133,"text":"所以我們當然是支持環保的但是支持環保的方式你應該用鼓勵的方式而不是用這種用上對下的這種盡力的方式所以特別是署長你應該要站在這個我們消費者的立場站在國內屬業者的立場上在想事情那不能夠說一切都是由環保單位他們決定環境單位說的算他是要有平衡性的"},{"start":12901.693,"end":12907.279,"text":"那現在我一直覺得很奇怪就是說為什麼不能夠有差異化這件事情可不可以舒暢 可不可以簡單講一下"},{"start":12910.325,"end":12938.791,"text":"我其實同意委員的想法因為像上禮拜大家在提出來比如說大毛巾不提供這件事情我個人也覺得這件事情對於國際遊客來到台灣的時候它是相對的不友善那這件事情如何兼顧友善服務跟我們的環保政策還是希望得到一個平衡那這件事情我們內部會再重新檢討希望取得一個還是優先提供友善的服務給旅客"},{"start":12939.611,"end":12955.691,"text":"然後又能去落實到所謂的我們環境環保政策那個署長同樣的連鎖飯店不讓我們去日本或者是其其他的這個國家同樣等級的連鎖飯店但是我們現在不只是被平步提供連服務都下降"},{"start":12956.314,"end":12973.448,"text":"同樣等級的飯店甚至我們去其他國外的這些旅館我們付的價格更少不管是匯率的關係還是等等但是他就本國國內因為利用這些禁令這些指令來去做他們降低消費者的這一個這一個他們提供服務的這個標準"},{"start":12974.529,"end":13000.043,"text":"所以不是只有一致性的備品而已相關的服務他們本來在其他的國家同等級的飯店同等級同一個系列的連鎖店他們等於是被降格所以我們當有這樣子的建議之後其實有很多旅宿業者直接跟我們投訴他說這對他們金雲飯店來講他們的這些領導品牌會直接指責我們國家的這些旅宿業者說你這樣是把我們的品牌降格我們要考慮跟你的合作關係"},{"start":13001.284,"end":13019.391,"text":"這樣子有辦法增加國旅嗎增加有辦法增加國旅的價格跟品質嗎你沒有辦法嘛你如果沒有辦法做出差異化特色化的話那你怎麼跟人家競爭而且我們不是說只是來這邊觀光而已我們還有來參與會議的商務旅行人士你要叫他們全部把他們的備品都攜帶"},{"start":13020.211,"end":13049.611,"text":"那我必須還要再強調其實這個你說一次性備品包含他們可以把他們地方性我們去日本的時候都會有他們把他們自己地方性的特殊產品融入在他們的備品裡面給賓客有賓至如歸的感覺或者是超越賓至如歸的感覺這就是他們特殊想要的體驗我們有做這些事情嗎不斷的建立現在已經說要擴張到磷礦泉水飲用水免疫型餐具然後這個所有的這些牙刷牙膏全部的一次性備品全部都不提供而且沒有方案"},{"start":13051.111,"end":13076.172,"text":"請問署長你們有什麼其他方案有沒有跟這個我們其他環保單位來討論怎麼樣可以共融你們要共融不是說用這種懲罰性的用上對下的請用獎勵的方式不要用上對下的方式不是每一個人的價值觀都是一致的那是個多元的國家差異化精品化怎麼樣能夠爭取到各個不同國家的旅客各個不同他們價值不一樣有些人可以去對環保友善的這些旅館旅宿店"},{"start":13076.832,"end":13098.951,"text":"我同意委員的意見就是我們不要用單一的標準去看待我們整個因為觀光是服務業而且我們重視體驗這件事情希望能我們有點改進的機會除了重視體驗之外我不好意思說有許多來台灣的這些商業觀光旅客他就直接跟我們說因為你們不提供牙刷所以我們直接自己就自己出去再大量的購買這樣有比較好嗎甚至"},{"start":13100.672,"end":13128.168,"text":"有些提供的業者是用環保的材質減量的 CO2減量 石油減量等等各種全部都放到他們的材質裡面一樣在散播他們要支持環境的這個方式你知道他們去買 買了一個更貴的這種我不覺得這是好的方式 麻煩署長再寫是 我們再檢討 謝謝好 謝謝因為後面還有比較多委員要質詢所以我們宣布一下等一下黃珊珊委員質詢完畢之後我們再休息五分鐘好 謝謝"},{"start":13130.182,"end":13145.815,"text":"好接下來請武麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請次長跟觀光署長林次長陳署長請委員好"},{"start":13152.029,"end":13177.165,"text":"市長好在105年的時候發展觀光條例的修法有把一條納進去就是涉及原保地的要會同中央原住民事務主管機關來去嚴定所以在107年的時候交通部跟園民會就會嫌發布了一個觀光地區與風景特定區的一個保育費的收取辦法"},{"start":13177.97,"end":13193.722,"text":"那也就是說原鄉已經有一個法源可以來收取觀光保育費那也因此呢其實我過去在擔任屏東縣政府原民處長的時候有幫忙霧台鄉就是協助他們去成立自然人文生態景觀區"},{"start":13195.323,"end":13218.445,"text":"那目前應該是全國第一個那這個當中其實也有一個觀光保育費的收取辦法就是說前項公告收取觀光保育費的範圍涉及原保地的要先會商當地的原住民族事務主管機關所以我們看到在109年7月那霧台鄉它就劃設了自然人文生態景觀區"},{"start":13219.966,"end":13243.262,"text":"而且呢有開始收費那另外呢全國第一個離島成功案例呢在屏東小琉球也在113年的4月1號就是公告劃設那成為我們離島第一個觀光保育費的一個收取所以我想請教一下就是我們目前像這些跟在我們山區原保地的"},{"start":13243.642,"end":13252.415,"text":"花東縱谷 國家風景區 山山 日月潭東海岸 阿里山 茂館處就是有沒有在收取觀光保育費"},{"start":13256.165,"end":13273.142,"text":"好來署長請確實現在目前除了說您剛剛提的這兩個案例有之外其他部分目前並沒有但是我覺得如果國家下潮永續觀光發展確實是應該要研究一下那這件事情我們未來會再來演繹"},{"start":13273.723,"end":13301.478,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我希望就是後續也可以提供一些書面資料 謝謝那另外一個呢其實在鄭文燦市長的時候他有爭取北橫國家風景區那我們的族人設計在這個北橫的有復興區還有宜蘭的大同鄉所以呢他們很關切那我在新聞上就是有看到就是那個卡關的旅遊桃園的關旅局是這樣回應"},{"start":13302.498,"end":13321.896,"text":"他說因為涉及到60處的原住民部落要做諮商同意然後又提到說要怎麼跟他們共管所以卡關很久所以我這邊是想要特別了解一下就是目前的進度如何有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":13323.959,"end":13351.697,"text":"報告委員有關於北橫國家風景區的深設那峽館內大概有60個原住民部落那其中我們最近的一個數據是有30個部落會議已經同意他們也有部落會議的機制存在那至於沒有的部分他們就說商請原民會也同意用諮商會議的方式去處理所以你們預期還要多久"},{"start":13352.517,"end":13372.126,"text":"這個部分我們可能會跟桃園縣政府 桃園市政府還有園民會這邊我們會積極主動的去請這兩個單位我們會來主責去來做協調的工作那我也希望後續能夠收到一個書面的報告那最後一個小問題就是說我看到2024年"},{"start":13373.927,"end":13399.81,"text":"霧峰他有納入三商管理處那所以呢在中興新村我們也看到新聞媒體報導就是他的環境優化拼觀光那在日月潭管理處呢其實他也在像信義鄉地利村他也去做了一些就是觀光景點的畫設我要說的是大家都很喜歡"},{"start":13401.246,"end":13419.511,"text":"大家都好喜歡我們原住民不喜歡國家公園但是好喜歡風景管理處那但是我要說的是因為我之前我在幾年前就是有啟動說希望可以延伸貿管處的北往那馬下"},{"start":13420.772,"end":13441.25,"text":"即便他們比較喜歡是在阿里山因為他們靠阿里山比較近那屏東這邊的話希望往南延伸到有北大吳山的這個太武鄉那我知道說明會好像也都辦完了那我不太曉得說進度到底如何因為感覺也是卡關很久了"},{"start":13444.079,"end":13464.457,"text":"部分不管是申請擴大範圍還是你設立我想這個主導權都是在地方政府還有在第一線如果他們有需求可能就要由他屏東縣政府他們能夠提報那個資源說明書上來我們就會所以是縣政府還沒有提報"},{"start":13465.557,"end":13491.745,"text":"所以是兩邊高雄市府跟屏東縣府還沒提報他們要提報資源說明書我們才能夠進入到畫社擴大的程序我想地方政府是樂意的因為我以茂林來講好了我自己的家鄉其實他享受這個資源三十多年了那我覺得這個觀光資源的效益應該要外溢要不然他跟旁邊的這些原鄉其實經過二三十年"},{"start":13492.526,"end":13509.974,"text":"其實差異性就出來了更何況原鄉本來就應該處處都是風景區那希望有這樣的一個支持那其他的部分我們會來努力好不好好 那也希望得到一個進度的說明報告好 謝謝市長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來再請翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":13527.207,"end":13540.969,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請次長和署長林次長 陳署長請委員好次長好不知道次長 署長平常會不會看報紙"},{"start":13544.836,"end":13566.525,"text":"網路報那我就不知道說你們有沒有看到這份新聞現在就在講說很多的老街都冷清清然後店家不是做二修五要不然的話就是提早打烊還有有些譬如說像新莊老街他們現在只剩下只有娃娃機很多的老街生意都做不下去那麼"},{"start":13568.286,"end":13582.577,"text":"當然新聞上面這邊是講的是英格老街但是事實上不管是九份淡水還有烏來然後三峽老街其實都有同樣的狀況那麼這些也凸顯出就是說現在老街商圈真的是經營非常的困難"},{"start":13583.357,"end":13612.398,"text":"那我們來看看其實國內的旅遊基本上也是很不樂觀根據觀光署自己的報告你們觀光署自己的報道就是中秋節雙十節光復節等三個年假全台旅宿訂房率都不到五成所以由此可見台灣的觀光我們的國旅問題真的是很嚴重請問這個署長跟次長你們認為說今年的國旅的景氣是好的嗎"},{"start":13615.638,"end":13640.035,"text":"你們認為是好的嗎國旅的部分根據觀光署的報告今年是有到應該是有2.2億人次是人數是多但是這個停留天數相對少特性已經有點轉變就是變成當日我跟你講我個人認為說人數固然重要更重要是說它能夠帶來給台灣的觀光經濟以及它的消費力有多高"},{"start":13640.675,"end":13659.888,"text":"來了一堆人但是不消費我們的觀光經濟大家不消費然後我們經濟就不會好尤其對觀光業者還有開店的這些商家他們沒有錢賺這是一個很現實的議題我們知道其實從疫情之後民進黨政府因為跟大陸的關係惡化所以也連帶的影響到大陸客來台的觀光經濟我們來看看這10年來的"},{"start":13671.115,"end":13684.1,"text":"到今年只剩下44萬當然雖然說比去年23萬要成長一些但是等於說少了10倍就現在就是還應該是少了90%只剩下這個1%那麼如果說從觀光經濟來看的話2015年當時也還有44%"},{"start":13692.483,"end":13715.461,"text":"就是陆客对于台湾带来的观光经济占比44%十年之后到现在也只有占比5%所以也都是十倍之差那么我想在第一线的业者是感受最深像那个日月潭的这个开船艇的船家他就说这个陆客没来他们的业绩非常的惨淡那我想请问署长就说这些"},{"start":13716.241,"end":13728.712,"text":"因為民進黨政府跟大陸關係的惡化所帶來的我們的觀光經濟的損失應該由誰來負責觀光署難道沒有責任嗎交通部沒有責任嗎"},{"start":13729.532,"end":13754.942,"text":"包委員疫情後逐步在恢復那恢復的過程中我們是希望能夠透過觀光小兩會就所有的旅遊安全跟這個健康有序的發展能做一個協調很好就是剛剛次長你們講到說觀光小兩會我記得就是說署長您在第一7月24號第一次來立法院備詢的時候在回答陳雪生委員的質詢您當時有說您會開會後來你們到底開會了嗎"},{"start":13759.318,"end":13783.665,"text":"你們所謂的觀光小兩會你們實際上有開嗎到目前為止有開嗎我請旅行業組組長主席委員好我是旅行業組組長我們2月的時候其實已經發文給觀光小兩會的海旅會但海旅會到現在都目前為止都沒有正式回文所以我們也希望他們可以盡快回文所以是他們不想跟你們談"},{"start":13785.785,"end":13810.47,"text":"是這樣嗎還是你們有沒有積極去做嘛對不對你們當時就說是會說當時預計七月底的時候會有開會就看起來都沒有進展總之你們現在都沒有進展那我現在要講的就是說我預期你們接下來也不會有什麼進展因為你們對於這個我們的大陸團到現在為止你們都還沒有解令你們進團令一直到現在都還持續著對不對你對於大陸來講他為什麼還要開放他的觀光客來"},{"start":13810.95,"end":13819.695,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實就是想要跟陸方表達說希望觀光小連會先開會那陸方到現在都沒有給我們不用開那麼多的會了大家你們只要是政策一鬆綁他們那裡就會釋出更多的這個路客來我們現在看看日本 韓國 新加坡這些國家"},{"start":13831.801,"end":13851.149,"text":"他們一直都不斷的在爭取入客觀光署沒有看到嗎交通部沒有看到嗎陸委會沒有看到嗎我必須說現在陸委會好像儼然是變成所有機關的這個太上機關你們都變成他們的下屬機關了所有事情都要配合陸委會做你看日本這個放寬入客簽證帶來給他們這個日本的消費的經濟大破3000億啊"},{"start":13858.72,"end":13885.222,"text":"韓國現在也是說以後對於大陸觀光客開放免簽新加坡也是根據他們的這個旅遊統計報告也是給他們帶來35.8億的這個這樣子的一個觀光經濟是在各國的旅客當中貢獻最大的對不對 交通部觀光署你們真的是要檢討你們到底有沒有捍衛這些國內的觀光業者他們的權益委員我們也是希望陸方可以盡快跟我們來開會啦"},{"start":13886.806,"end":13907.75,"text":"路芳你們都沒有釋出山 你們一直要求人家我是覺得說這個不需要再跟路芳開你們只要是自己主動釋放利多他們就會配合的一起他們就會跟進開放更多的路客進來我對你們其實已經非常的失望了那這次也會把我的失望體現在你們的預算上面 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13916.686,"end":13942.788,"text":"來請回我剛有宣布不好意思因為這個還是要休息一下所以等一下黃珊珊委員之後休息五分鐘先跟王委員說明一下接下來再請麥育森委員質詢謝謝主席有請光光署署長來陳署長請"},{"start":13951.192,"end":13954.221,"text":"委員好好 市長好"},{"start":13956.072,"end":13980.802,"text":"根據審計部113年度總結算審核報告觀光署為了加速恢復旅宿業收新冠疫情的影響中央政府議後強調經濟特別預算中編列了10億元以每人每月補助5000元的方式"},{"start":13982.043,"end":13998.437,"text":"給新增聘僱防務及清潔人員依估補助業者增聘於一萬六千人但實際上從光光署昨天提交的專題報告中在這個專題報告中裡面我們的理事業在補助期間聘僱的"},{"start":14006.583,"end":14029.441,"text":"員工僅僅增加了2811人不止於疫情目標落差將近8倍就連112年委託調查的李樹葉房屋清潔人力缺口6600人的需求都無法滿足"},{"start":14030.482,"end":14044.783,"text":"一天到晚就吵著立法院不給預算給了執行效率又這麼差補助都沒有人申請還是問題在哪裡就在你們報告中裡面寫的"},{"start":14047.389,"end":14075.021,"text":"委員要回答嗎是謝謝委員看到這個問題確實因為我們的優先是先用本國勞工來補足人力的缺口那因為現在目前台灣就是進入高齡化的社會所以現在目前所謂的防務跟清潔確實在於長輩上面可能比較有點體力上面比較不足所以申請的人確實不如預期這是事實"},{"start":14076.201,"end":14101.444,"text":"所以我們才會後續又爭取了蠻多新的項目包含了說橋外生畢業後留台或者是說畢業生畢業的橋外生從事旅宿服務工作都提供更多的彈性那另外也是放寬的實習生最後我們當然是更鼓勵是目前今天剛公佈的是中介技術人力的開放以上先做這樣說明"},{"start":14103.117,"end":14122.326,"text":"好 因為你說的我覺得這個不只是問題啦 因為落差那麼大嘛所以因為我看到我們剛才你有說 但是我們就是跟觀光署在5月的時候也公布 有公布說禮數月在下半年就是"},{"start":14123.226,"end":14147.058,"text":"在開放引進移工但是後來就被勞動部長打臉表示就是說有觀光署有交換意見但跨國勞動力還是主要是勞動部所以他們在研議中還有沒有實成所以四個月過去了所以我們沒有看到這樣的結果所以感覺就是網內互打產業所產生的問題還是沒有解決"},{"start":14154.417,"end":14167.022,"text":"對但是你剛才說我們的行政院有說嘛對但是行政院院長是不是行政院長有說我們昨天有看到新聞"},{"start":14168.936,"end":14191.357,"text":"但是會不會又被哪一位部長又打臉了呢有跟觀光署討論過嗎你們事先知道這件消息嗎我們觀光署是主管是我們理事業的主管機構這些措施是否對產業的缺工有幫助"},{"start":14192.418,"end":14205.684,"text":"疫情能補足多少人力的缺口什麼時候執行能否現在給我們一個時間點或者拿出具體的時程表"},{"start":14207.401,"end":14232.583,"text":"謝謝委員提問這個過程我們都一直跟勞動部有很多往返的討論那也把產業的狀況跟實際上面可行的方案因為勞動部也得關注到國內的這些本國勞工的權利跟義務那公屋署的對旅宿業的部分也會希望說在產業不影響產業發展也能幫助產業發展的情況之下去跟勞動部溝通"},{"start":14233.764,"end":14245.465,"text":"那這件事情也是這樣來來回回的那直到是昨天勞動部跟行政院院長報告過之後通過所以原則上這個政策應該就是確定確定往下走了"},{"start":14245.928,"end":14270.321,"text":"所以你們是不是有往下走因為我們看到報告裡面沒有寫昨天我們才看到這樣子的宣布所以你們都不知道是勞動部跟行政院討論所以你們是現在提不出你們的時程表也沒有說你們怎麼做 都沒有"},{"start":14271.531,"end":14290.081,"text":"還是說你們完全不知道這件事因為我們還是得得到勞動部正式的通知可以啟動相關的作業我們才能進行那這個部分是前前後後的相關的報告跟討論都是跟勞動部是沒有障礙的都是有同步在溝通的"},{"start":14291.555,"end":14308.944,"text":"因為我們要的是政府的態度所以我們以跨部會要密切的合作才清楚自己的責任歸屬因為我們百姓都是弱勢所以缺工不是"},{"start":14310.325,"end":14328.801,"text":"未來是是現在進行是每一天的拖延都是對基層勞工與產業的傷害政府必須要立即行動否則台灣的產業就競爭力占為就是嚴重的被你們就是"},{"start":14329.542,"end":14346.939,"text":"拖累拖垮所以我們希望說我們要跨部會真正的合作不要說別人說的今天行政院宣布等一下另外一個部長說沒有啊沒有啊一直在拖啊希望我們署長要來就是跨部會共同來去"},{"start":14347.399,"end":14372.784,"text":"推廣去努力才能達到這個目標我們會積極的辦理因為這是產業需要的謝謝好謝謝麥委員謝謝蘇東請回剛剛本席有諮詢過那也再一次跟我們委員報告就是在這個今天行政我們排這個案專案之前那我們要資料也沒有辦法要到那不過今天我們排了這專案同時間行政院就通過院會這個缺工的議題"},{"start":14373.604,"end":14402.377,"text":"那我剛剛要求觀光署交通部這邊也要針對說後續開放的一個狀況辦理的一個方式也要給我們交通委員會所有委員以及關心這個議題的蔓越真委員一份資料好接下來再請黃珊珊委員自選謝謝主席我請次長跟署長林次長陳署長請"},{"start":14406.84,"end":14421.972,"text":"委員好是 市長我想先問交通部上一次因為我在這邊質詢說奧地利不承認台灣的駕照那經過外交部的努力現在奧地利政府已經同意了那比較嚴重的是9月26號羅馬尼亞的事件"},{"start":14424.734,"end":14443.344,"text":"我們的攝影達人在羅馬尼亞距離匈牙利部到100公尺被兩名警察攔下來說不承認台灣台灣不在維也納公約簽署名單而且認為台灣駕照是違法文件涉及刑事犯罪扣押駕照而且揚言送給中國大使館交通部這個案子的處理狀況怎麼樣已經半個月了"},{"start":14454.181,"end":14481.167,"text":"公共運輸司先說明我們有努力過了嗎上次交通部很幫忙這次呢奧地利的部分我們有請外交部幫忙所以已經通過了那這個部分我們再來這個個案而且這個國家他在我們國際駕照的簽署國在交通部網站上是告訴國人可以使用而且也在我們自己交通部公路局的互惠相關有羅馬尼亞"},{"start":14482.367,"end":14491.334,"text":"可是我們在國外遇到這樣的狀況我們會再請外交部來做協助我要問的是這個案子到今天為止有沒有任何處理"},{"start":14492.897,"end":14520.59,"text":"因為你們只看到新聞沒有人處理是嗎 次長我給你一個禮拜的時間處理的結果後續不管是不是這位我們其他的國人還有沒有可能再受到這樣的待遇我想我們會跟公路局第一個先把您剛講的網站上的你要給他警示啊如果他這種國家是這樣我就不要放在我的網站上啦第二個我要發動警示說讓國人不要去啊"},{"start":14521.67,"end":14539.45,"text":"在這邊還把你抓起來是還把你送到中國大使館這什麼國家這個我們來好不好交通部我給你一個禮拜的時間請你把這個個案以及羅馬尼亞對我們國家這樣子的不友善我們就以牙還牙以眼還眼了解我們會同步確認以後也通知外交部請他們幫忙"},{"start":14540.27,"end":14562.557,"text":"接下來是我們觀光的問題剛剛大家已經講了十億元加進去一萬六千人只來兩千六署長我想問一下我們研究過現在問題除了剛剛講的缺工之外其實不是缺工是也不是缺錢是為什麼台灣的旅宿業沒有人願意做房屋不知道辛苦"},{"start":14567.489,"end":14576.669,"text":"好啦 部長 署長 我加給你個數字喔台北精華酒店以他今年1月1號的一個房價一個晚上高達大概新台幣2萬6千塊"},{"start":14578.757,"end":14597.036,"text":"在香港的香港麗金酒店跟他同等級大概是一萬六千塊也就是說台灣的五星級飯店的房價跟國際級的大都市同等級的房價我們比人家一個房間一個晚上足足多了一萬塊台幣"},{"start":14599.147,"end":14627.687,"text":"不是沒有錢啦是沒有把錢給我們該給的人啦香港的京華酒店現在房屋院的薪資他們在招聘的是三萬三千塊台幣起跳香港的麗金房屋他們每個月的薪水是九萬塊台幣起跳我們不是缺工我們是缺我們的相關旅宿院沒有把這些錢給到這些該給的人我們的收的錢沒有比人家低喔"},{"start":14629.349,"end":14640.68,"text":"如果按照這樣的比例來說房價比人家高一萬一個晚上但是我們的薪水是人家的三分之一不到這才是問題"},{"start":14642.905,"end":14670.01,"text":"當然我們不是說房價不能這麼高而是你對標了國際級的大飯店大城市但是我們的薪水沒有對標國際這才是問題兩位如果這件事情只是中央我們給錢給到他他沒有給到底下或者是他的工作環境不好現在所有你們的報告裡面說住宿跟餐飲業離職的主因就是待遇不符期望"},{"start":14671.826,"end":14683.633,"text":"你今天開放移工對我們的旅宿業的成本下降一樣國人還是沒有增加他的收入這才是我們的問題吧兩位你們的意見呢確實如委員講的那我們現在是積極的在鼓勵我們的旅宿業要幫同仁加薪"},{"start":14693.14,"end":14714.447,"text":"加薪要成為他的一些相關的KPI而且要成為政府要不要給他們這些相關資訊的或者是將來有協助補助的條件現在的中階技術人力他是連動的他是一定要先幫本國勞工先加薪他才能使用中階技術人力"},{"start":14715.707,"end":14731.393,"text":"所以我剛剛講的這個才是問題嘛他們台灣的房子房價國人為什麼有這麼多的疑慮因為台灣大部分覺得台灣國旅的房價是高的但是為什麼找不到人是因為我們沒有把房價的反應讓"},{"start":14733.467,"end":14747.506,"text":"基層的員工受惠這才是問題我說缺工錯 我們不是缺工我們是缺該給該給的人而是想做這行的人他得不到該有的報酬這才是問題"},{"start":14748.507,"end":14771.615,"text":"然後現在開放的移工可能這個問題又會更雪上加霜我覺得應該是怎麼樣保障本國勞工讓這些業者其實他們得到的利益應該怎麼樣下放給基層員工這個可能才是你們想要改革最重要的方向而不是只是單純的開放移工當成解藥好嗎好另外那個部分就請一個禮拜謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":14774.96,"end":14778.544,"text":"好 謝謝那我們再休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":14795.073,"end":14801.455,"text":"我們去發喊外交部沒有問題但是外交部去"},{"start":14822.65,"end":14836.522,"text":"對 對 對 所以我剛剛說我們會找外交部好 好對 對 對 對對 對所以是外交部 因為我剛剛看新聞是是外交部"},{"start":15098.237,"end":15109.443,"text":"好請列席官員盡速就座交通委員會現在繼續開會接下來請王宏威委員質詢好謝謝主席請我們長賜還有我們觀光署署長林次長陳署長請"},{"start":15127.625,"end":15132.504,"text":"好 吳彥浩好 首長今天好像有感冒 辛苦了"},{"start":15133.83,"end":15160.726,"text":"我想今天主要的焦點都聚集在就是我們現在的觀光人的次數其實一直沒有辦法達成目標在今年初因為去年我們沒有辦法達成我們設定的目標在今年初我們的部長陳士凱他接受中央社的專訪他說他要整頓觀光他要爭取高端客"},{"start":15161.807,"end":15189.295,"text":"那顯然今年應該就是把整個提升交通這觀光客作為交通部的一個重點施政目標但是到現在為止大家可以看到其實高端變成我們還是房價很高端房價很高端那請問一下我們的高端的觀光客在哪裡呢我們今年以來到底"},{"start":15190.799,"end":15209.451,"text":"部長口中所說的高端觀光客高端客到底在哪裡而且我們如果看這些指標來說那麼甚至比這個疫情前我們如果看我今天框起來的這個是來台旅客每人平均的每人每日消費"},{"start":15210.712,"end":15224.363,"text":"比這個疫情前還要減少所以顯然部長所講的高端課今年要開發的顯然已經跳票好然後"},{"start":15225.99,"end":15241.822,"text":"今年我們出國的旅客人數更增加我看到今天我們稍早就是一到前三季我們的逆差也就是出境比入境是多了超過800萬的人次"},{"start":15244.344,"end":15267.953,"text":"那而且如果以消費金額來說我想請問次長或署長我們今年我們去出國旅遊的消費總金額是不是會超過新台幣一兆元你們有這樣評估嗎因為在去年的時候已經超過九千億了會不會超過一兆元"},{"start":15270.477,"end":15297.433,"text":"我覺得如果你們現在還要再討論如果按照現在我們的旅客出境人數的消費已經達到我們總預算的三分之一那麼我們一直希望能夠有一些補助也好補助這個國外的觀光人數我們過去不是一直都有補助嗎那如果今天我們到國外的消費的金額這麼高"},{"start":15300.57,"end":15315.159,"text":"這其實已經把台灣很多的資源都已經帶出國了那而我們現在討論的就是國旅國旅到底能不能夠做提振次長請問一下國旅還有救嗎"},{"start":15318.144,"end":15332.999,"text":"國旅是還繼續 需要繼續努力我們的數字顯示旅客量是兩億兩千萬人次一年 去年但是這個停留的天數比較短變成比以往1.39的樣子"},{"start":15334.781,"end":15337.605,"text":"沒錯這也許有人講是因為說高鐵太方便了尤其西部他寧願趕快買一個票再回去所以你們去做這個近六年的這個就是國內旅遊也是一樣啊"},{"start":15350.902,"end":15366.655,"text":"有超過七成的 113年 超過七成的人大概七成五的人 根本不在外過夜這就問題 這剛才大家也講到國旅線問題可能很重要 大家談到的就是房價過高那我請問一下署長 國旅還有救嗎台灣的國旅還有沒有救國旅當然還有救 怎麼救你們要怎麼救"},{"start":15377.092,"end":15401.855,"text":"國旅我覺得我們有些景點確實是數十年來如一日都沒有新的項目所以原本特色的景點如何在有些新的項目這也是我們努力的那第二個是我們觀察到現在目前國內國旅的消費行為基本上就是採取區域型的旅遊比較多要麼就是目的型導向比如說像以這一兩年高雄的"},{"start":15402.675,"end":15422.738,"text":"的演唱會經濟非常的熱絡所以基本上當日來回高雄也很多這種就屬於很但是問題是就是其實對高鐵是有幫助的但是對我們旅遊住宿沒有幫助剛才講說像這個來我們看下一張我們在8年有300家的旅行社解散"},{"start":15423.939,"end":15449.619,"text":"我們光是近三個月有12家旅行社倒閉了有31家你們公佈31家停業了那麼像以高雄來說五星級的飯店爆熄燈潮雖然剛才講就是所謂的演唱會經濟學雖然帶著人潮到了高雄可是他沒有住宿所以高雄的一些老字號飯店陸陸續續的"},{"start":15451.761,"end":15477.848,"text":"停業或者是關閉好 所以我要講就是說為什麼我們一直覺得觀光尤其國旅這麼重要那大家其實在講罰假問題罰假已經不是這兩年的事情了講了快10年了快10年好像也沒有辦法解決那我請問一下今天早上行政院所公布的旅宿月可以開放外籍移工我想請問署長"},{"start":15480.269,"end":15494.287,"text":"這有沒有助於房價的降低國內飯店旅社房價降低有沒有幫助希望可以"},{"start":15495.037,"end":15512.403,"text":"希望那你們可不可以設定一個目標值否則的話當然沒錯啦房價市場機制可是剛剛都講了這所謂市場機制跟國外比實在是太昂貴了對不對太昂貴那其實我們今天開放外籍移工某一個程度也是希望能夠解決這相關的問題"},{"start":15514.116,"end":15538.227,"text":"所以對署長來講或次長來講可不可以你們經過這麼多討論可不可以有一個目標這KPI啊我希望在這一波在一季我可以看到起碼有5%到10%的房價可以降低反應或者是更多你們有沒有做這樣的一個目標否則的話我們今天做專報"},{"start":15539.548,"end":15558.941,"text":"可能到了三個月後半年後還是一樣的專報沒有改善只是我們看到更多旅行社解散更多的這個飯店熄燈所以你們有沒有一個目標今天行政院公布的最新政策"},{"start":15560.973,"end":15583.325,"text":"在這邊跟我們報告我們大概沒有辦法去強迫要求那個旅宿業一定要降價降多少但是我們會一直鼓勵他們像我們現在在光屬的旅宿網上面大概有一千多個是優惠的就是說如果要找更優惠的旅宿可以到上我們的旅宿網上面來"},{"start":15584.225,"end":15604.659,"text":"那像包含這次我們也鼓勵大家要去互相串聯像今天早上有特別提到那種就是連宿就是這種部分希望透過觀光圈的方式讓大家把那個比如說住宿裡面含郵程就是增加如果價格不降是否增加郵程的方式來處理"},{"start":15605.88,"end":15634.629,"text":"那我們這種會用鼓勵鼓勵的方式來希望業者能一起配合讓我們的整個環境變得更好我希望你們加油啦剛剛講說至少能讓這七成五的人不去過夜的裡面只要有一成的人一成的人願意留下來過夜我想就會很明顯看到一些改進國旅有救我希望國旅有救但是一定要拿出具體的作為這個我們再具體研議一下 謝謝"},{"start":15636.77,"end":15641.974,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請邱志偉委員質詢邱志偉"},{"start":15661.828,"end":15684.218,"text":"這觀光署 觀光署陳署長好 市長署長請好 第一個問題就是說這個怎麼樣讓更多國外旅客能夠來台灣來觀光這個英磅的這個多元化很重要"},{"start":15685.49,"end":15710.298,"text":"為什麼我請韓正市長大概我們主要地緣政治跟地緣經濟來看我們主要可以來自東北亞的日韓東南亞主要的國家然後大概這個北美北美大概主要是地緣政治地緣經濟那另外歐洲市場我們也是有我們主力市場那歐洲分很大的區域那目前只集中在西歐跟中歐"},{"start":15711.843,"end":15739.914,"text":"那未來我們跟芬蘭這目前航權談得怎麼樣芬蘭的部分這部分我們的持續都在進行當中有沒有一個時間表這個芬蘭航空它有飛韓國 它有飛仁川也飛大阪 也飛東京那他們可以飛這個日本韓國而且還有飛大阪所以說我們應該也有這個條件"},{"start":15742.779,"end":15760.965,"text":"而且你如果做這個芬蘭航空這個航程是比較短的而且對北歐來說很多這個北歐五國他們也可以利用芬蘭轉機這我希望能夠加快進度不要一直在紙上談兵這你要這個有沒有明確的時程呢"},{"start":15761.929,"end":15778.126,"text":"那個市長 是 包委員 就這部分必須要就是兩方之間都要有共識 自己談很久了 我說有沒有一個比較明確的時程表我們努力我們努力 因為目前是還沒有一個明確的時程表 那不是就白問了我是說比較明確的時程表 來 那個林市長林市長"},{"start":15783.84,"end":15812.163,"text":"你要總要有一個目標我們才能監督你要有一個目標大概什麼時候可以談完是 鮑偉行權的部分民航局長有帶隊去談了現在是航班的部分還沒有指定航空公司也就是說沒有航空公司表達意願北歐的部分是第一個談下來的分了航空願意飛嗎沒有就是現在航空公司還沒有指定兩邊的行權我們有行權嘛行權剛剛談定有第五行權嗎"},{"start":15813.546,"end":15821.147,"text":"有三四五還有延遠 對所以有第五行選嘛 是一週應該是十四班我記得"},{"start":15822.236,"end":15849.882,"text":"所以現在就是說只要航空公司有意願可以在航權授權範圍內來申請這個就牽扯到下一個議題就是說怎麼樣讓北歐的這些人民能夠了解台灣的觀光之美所以你現在主流媒體有台灣的觀光形象廣告對不對幾乎每個國家都有你BBC CNN我看看很多馬來西亞 泰國什麼台灣有沒有這方面的形象廣告"},{"start":15851.04,"end":15878.332,"text":"我們觀光局的 觀光署的部分一直我們在外面有16個代表處那基本上國內的國際組也都會把對 我說CNN或BBC這樣主流媒體有沒有投放廣告應該有買吧 好像印章沒看到我想我們把資料再給委員 這個應該是必要的他的評語是很高的 幾乎每一集新聞都有不要說馬來西亞的就好了我們把資料給委員 應該有"},{"start":15880.943,"end":15894.127,"text":"這是必要的所以你這部分一定要加強主流媒體的這個廣告投放讓透過主流媒體讓更多的這個主要國家知道台灣之美他們才有興趣有興趣才有意願所以這個觀光部分當然是你這個未來觀光立國2030年我是覺得這樣我們對"},{"start":15906.909,"end":15933.031,"text":"一定要分主要市場跟次要市場主要市場絕對是在亞洲對不對你扣除中國之外 主要還是在亞洲亞洲是這個日本有成長沒有問題那這個韓國也有成長空間韓國疫情之前是124萬現在才100萬左右所以你這個航艇要密集航線也要密集"},{"start":15934.178,"end":15950.351,"text":"比如說現在這個慶祝你也可以飛大庭也可以飛 慶祝也可以飛現在一直飛 大修 雖然大修很多台灣人不知道但是它是第三大城 這很多人去過很多年輕人去過大修"},{"start":15952.54,"end":15976.978,"text":"班班客滿 紅眼航班班班客滿 各位報告東北亞的航班都已經超過疫情前 東南亞也超過現在只有兩岸 但是你看人數來說 韓國來臺灣旅遊人數還比疫情前少了大概25萬左右所以韓國市場再加油 特別透過國際行銷或者航點更密集更多元謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":15981.857,"end":16010.345,"text":"接下來請林月琴委員 林月琴委員 林月琴委員不在 請尤浩委員質詢OK謝謝趙偉 那有請次長還有署長 林次長陳署長請"},{"start":16015.137,"end":16040.566,"text":"委員好 次長好署長身體保重那簡單先就教次長就是在今年的這次的題目 專案報告的題目900萬國際旅客達標的情況那目前來講的話今年的達標以及說有沒有機會能夠比照就是像是去年的目標能夠達到1000萬那次長你覺得咧"},{"start":16043.287,"end":16063.199,"text":"包委員我們陳署長上任後這個目標目前設定900那到10月20幾號800多嗎600多了600多嗎所以目標應該是有努力的空間也可能會接近就原則上有信心可以達到900嗎因為已經"},{"start":16064.98,"end":16080.309,"text":"10月底680那也是期待 拭目以待那其實在這裡也是要肯定還署長我們廣告署長其實上任之後到現在是馬不停蹄那在"},{"start":16081.189,"end":16109.154,"text":"南投縣的時候我們的一些觀光的需求那其實署長他甚至特別不僅是整個下午空下來甚至到晚上都還陪著我們的縣府還有我們的鎮長吉吉知縣我們集鎮的鎮長主席一直在會堪還幾乎到晚上很晚才回去所以在這裡還是要表達肯定那同樣的我們就直接來看一下吉吉知縣"},{"start":16110.325,"end":16137.5,"text":"那在目前來講就是在年底我們的集集支線我們要做復始那到時候會是我們的觀光還非常重要的一個可以再復出那同時對國旅的話相信也一定是大有助益那所以集集線火車復始的一個振興方案也是本席一直以來都非常重視跟關心的區塊那在"},{"start":16138.36,"end":16153.616,"text":"上次的一個協調會其實有許多的一個結論因為在這個之前也經過了多次的會刊那也希望藉這個機會不僅讓次長也知道包括署長的努力那同樣的也讓社會各界跟媒體朋友也知道"},{"start":16154.176,"end":16182.179,"text":"因為集集鎮過去在隧道它在整個做修復到今年的年底可以到集集站還來做複駛到明年的六月可以全線通車這是鐵路三大支線那不僅是內灣或者是平溪還有集集這是我們國內重要的一個觀光資產那在集集小鎮那有很多特殊的景點那不僅它的自然景觀文化歷史還有包括它整個未來的潛力"},{"start":16182.719,"end":16203.5,"text":"那其實在日管處他過去對於這個急急症的這個幫忙那其實也是非常多的那也要再次謝謝署長那同樣的我們也希望說藉由周遭的衛星的城鎮市鎮還來帶動包括結合的日月潭的發展那樣才能夠更有潛力所以在景區組還跟日管處"},{"start":16204.241,"end":16230.154,"text":"還有許多的經費如果是在集集或水里的話其實這邊只要發展起來同樣的是也可以帶動人潮去日月潭所以我相信這個日月潭的風景管理處他在做一個觀光的推廣應該是要做整體的一個規劃那同樣的在集集支線的部分那本席也想要就是直接的來看一下我們的這個PDT下一頁"},{"start":16231.515,"end":16259.48,"text":"還包括未來一個日未談的延伸還包括結合高鐵到之後帶台鐵的一個支線轉成下一頁那這個整個支線的通車會到明年的6月那所以在今年年底的話就借這個機會能夠多多邀請還有許多朋友過年期間年底就可以來集集來體驗集集小鎮下一頁那包括復始後的觀光活動還有需要觀光署還包括交通部這邊都能夠持續支持下一頁"},{"start":16262.133,"end":16289.252,"text":"那包括車程的鐵道節水裡結合日月潭花火節的音樂嘉年華還有水裡影展下一頁那還有集集正的環正的步道所以在軟體硬體的一個整體的工程上還包括活動的一個經營上下一頁下一頁那也希望能夠打造集集的一個夜間經濟的部分好那在這裡我們看到了包括集結殖民活動國際半城馬拉松還有以及包括"},{"start":16289.952,"end":16304.22,"text":"未來希望能夠推廣的南投藝術火車節包括以及鐵道的農特產的推廣活動以及地震館及周遭的光環境營造還有包括林影寺還有觀景平台 蘭和宴的自行車道"},{"start":16305.18,"end":16330.405,"text":"那在那時候集集政有提出了一個七大的亮點計畫那時候其實也跟署長有特別就是有討論過那在這個一億三千萬的部分那未來分兩年的部分來逐步協助這一次的集集的觀光振興那想問一下這個署長是不是可以統一那部長次長這邊是不是能夠支持"},{"start":16334.862,"end":16359.234,"text":"委員好 我們上次有提到這幾個項目其中除了說像集集的業經濟的部分我們認為還可以再討論一下其他部分原則上我們都會積極的來支持因為我們想集集火車站那麼漂亮它到底應該走一個什麼樣的業經濟我覺得我們可以再跟地方大家再討論一下其他部分大概是這個樣子 謝謝"},{"start":16361.115,"end":16384.394,"text":"那這是有共識那市長這將近一億三千萬的部分分兩年期是不是可以來協助我們南投振興集集 報委我會請關公署盡量來協助那因為這條線結合高鐵台鐵站嘛一路進到智慧毯再加上纜車是一個非常重要的廊帶那當然不只集集上次您提到的九九峰那個我們都全力來支持"},{"start":16385.334,"end":16408.32,"text":"好 謝謝那本期在這裡還是要再請這個署長這邊也能夠持續來協助就是在一億三千萬分兩年期這七大亮點活動的部分還能夠協助幫忙還再次表達感謝那同樣的在於地方創生的一個相關未來旅推組在協助集集的部分"},{"start":16408.84,"end":16431.404,"text":"那也希望旅推組這邊上次開會有提到還能夠來協助集集政工所來透過青年的團體還能夠讓將來在這個集集支線開通之後的許多振興方案還能夠再串聯地方的民宿業者還也一起來解決這個旅書業相關的問題跟振興那是不是處長再回應一下就好"},{"start":16434.031,"end":16451.722,"text":"我們樂見啟程那我覺得地方創生年輕人的創意跟能量是最強的如果這些人的力量可以再拉進來我相信對地方的發展會更有幫助好 謝謝那也希望部內支長這邊也全力支持好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請牛許廷委員質詢"},{"start":16463.751,"end":16478.021,"text":"謝謝主席這個觀光署陳署長 交通部林次長有請次長 署長請委員好 辛苦了 午安這個大家今天都問這個"},{"start":16480.158,"end":16493.47,"text":"國際旅客的這個軍令狀那我剛剛聽得蠻清楚對不對到10月下旬680萬最後兩個月目標900萬嘛好但我想要提另外一個概念就是說這900萬假設真的達標900萬好了這900萬裡面的細項的區分是什麼"},{"start":16498.194,"end":16519.677,"text":"比如說他們到底是來幹嘛的來待多久他是商務會展演唱會還是說真的跟團觀光或者是閃課這些詳細的數據我是覺得要好好的利用一下因為大家都關注門檻但是內容是什麼我之所以要問待多久還為什麼而來是因為今天大體上的主題跟國內的旅宿業是有一定的關係"},{"start":16520.538,"end":16550.278,"text":"就是說幾百萬的人來他如果都只是短期停留兩天一夜商務會展行或者是演唱會看完就回家了這樣一個狀況的時候他其實對於旅宿真的有幫助嗎第二個是各地的分配是什麼我可能只待在台北或是在高雄一天兩天就走了那其他地方的觀光也好旅宿也好並沒有被振興到了所以我覺得除了有一個明確的數字有KPI有達到目標大家都很努力之外他的路徑圖跟儀表板你們現在觀光署也好交通部也好有沒有打算做一些合理的揭露跟一些分析"},{"start":16553.139,"end":16572.544,"text":"您提的這個很重要理論上每一年的還有趨勢我們都要評估對 你現在單純數字的趨勢我這邊手上都有嘛這個我想會請觀光署來來評估以後來對外提供你把這詳細的會後提供一下啦這是我們本席滿有興趣的啦是 作為未來策進但是可能不一定現在就有答案"},{"start":16572.924,"end":16600.798,"text":"沒關係 我給你一點時間去做但我希望說未來大家在討論這個觀光客數量的時候其實我們希望拿到的東西是更完整一點大家才能深入討論嘛之所以要去談這個事就是因為我們要了解它來的模式嘛我們才知道我們的競爭力在哪裡然後你才能具以去輔導旅宿業它可能是整併它可能是轉型可能是退場它才更有依據嘛要不然我們只是以當然我們都直觀想說我們把餅做大等等當然好嘛因為餅做大大家至少會有一個基礎的提升但現在眼下的環境恐怕也很難把餅做大"},{"start":16601.318,"end":16624.979,"text":"這我們要面對現實嘛那你如何精耕然後讓他達成更好的政策效果這我給這個觀光署跟交通部的一個提醒第二個我們談一下旅宿業的這個歇業跟缺工的問題因為你們報告上這個目標都開得很雄偉什麼兆元產值等等對不對可是看你們預算執行率我們最近看了審計報告我想很多人也提了這預算執行率好像有些落差"},{"start":16625.359,"end":16647.455,"text":"就拿這個缺工問題來解決好了這曾經編的總預算是10億元分幾年來做執行是補助業者嘛希望他可以徵聘房務啊因為他們缺工的狀況比較嚴重那本來目標是1萬6千人那實際上出來只有2,617人那達成率只有16%左右那前面也有獎勵旅宿品質提升計畫這東西當然隔了一個疫情復甦期啦但這4.6億的經費執行率只有54%好像"},{"start":16652.116,"end":16660.323,"text":"好意滿滿誠意滿滿但是好像並沒有精準精準的用出去請問這背後的緣由是什麼可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":16663.174,"end":16683.764,"text":"我自己的判斷因為台灣的產業也蠻豐富的那以呂素營現在目前的薪資在整個產業裡面確實是偏低那有很多人基本上可能往高科技走尤其像現在AI所以這件事情是造成我們為什麼在求財不義的主要原因"},{"start":16684.884,"end":16700.089,"text":"求財不宜他有兩種狀況為什麼自己談執行率因為他有兩種可能一個是我預算編的不夠也就是說我這錢全部花下去了但是我人來的還不夠那我們當然就會支持你編更多的預算但另外一個叫執行績較不夠也就是說我明明編了這個預算但我沒有辦法用完"},{"start":16700.689,"end":16719.032,"text":"那我覺得在精準程度上我希望關公署有一些檢討跟改正的一個報告就是說我如果真的沒有辦法目標一萬六那我人少一點但我加薪幅度大一點它也許效果就比較好我們都希望預算編出去國會支持預算編出去可以有所提升這我希望在預算執行的方面一樣會後要有一個比較完善的報告"},{"start":16719.833,"end":16735.462,"text":"第三個一個小的事情啦這我們現在擔心很多國內尤其是年輕年輕好朋友的共同的心聲就是為什麼台灣人現在不喜歡國旅呢其實不會少國旅大家都喜歡有高鐵方便他一日來回聊不起兩天一夜為什麼因為國旅的價格浮動的狀況是比較大的"},{"start":16737.663,"end":16757.482,"text":"那我們站旅宿業的角度也不是不能理解因為餅太小啊那餅太小我知道薅羊毛啊今天要開演唱會對不對先一筆進場再說其他時候恐怕就冷冷清清它出現了嚴重的分配不均跟人流不穩定的情況這我想是旅宿業的一個重大的危機但是這從消費者的角度來看觀感不好嘛"},{"start":16757.842,"end":16784.267,"text":"我們的口碑跟品質做不好的時候它沒有穩定的信賴程度的時候它也不會有穩定的客源就變成這樣然後變成我們國旅的就連你要跟世界競爭本身就困難但你連國旅的這個餅都越做越小的時候我想這是一個滿嚴重的問題所以本期其實有在思考是我們針對這個旅宿業者臨時烘台房價的狀況你們現在交通部的觀光署的想法是什麼你們補充一下沒有關係"},{"start":16785.868,"end":16810.129,"text":"比如說辦演唱會的時候 房價就一萬二然後下一個禮拜就剩兩千六這樣 落差其實很大嘛 對不對然後品質其實是一樣的 對不對那我們呂宿主副組長再回答可以報告委員 我是呂宿主副組長 陳怡萍那房價的部分是每個飯店業他都會跟我們合備一個這個備查的房價那因為年末的時候 大型演唱會比較多尤其是這種季節性活動的時候"},{"start":16810.649,"end":16831.254,"text":"那房價的部分當然就會根據這個活動的機制 那業者也會做一些相關的行促效 所以這個房價上面是會有一個浮動那對於這個如果有報導或者是消費者有反應有這個烘台房價的情形的話我們會跟這個地方政府聯繫 請地方政府去查處那如果查處是屬實的話 就會根據發展觀光條例的規定去處罰1萬以上5萬以下的罰款 對 我就要談這個事"},{"start":16837.575,"end":16853.983,"text":"就是說如果他真的有明確的違規事真就薅羊毛薅得太過分的時候你也只能罰他五萬我剛講現在一個晚上喊高的時候喊到一萬多啦對不對 那好幾間那五萬對他來講可能會不痛不癢這個罰是可以加次罰的不是只有罰一次就是他去查很多次的話可以用這個次數來來加去"},{"start":16854.923,"end":16869.318,"text":"我剛剛講的問題的核心就是因為我後台方案只是短期行為它不會是長期的所以你的累次我覺得效果我覺得大家可以思考一下本期有在思考官方發展條例要不要做一些機制上的一些調整我們對這件事再嚴謹一些核心的問題還是一樣"},{"start":16870.299,"end":16897.687,"text":"我之所以會談這個問題到底不是說就女書業就已經這麼可憐了對不對人事成本一上升房價當然就上升然後所以品質永遠都沒辦法上升因為你沒有額外的銀彈去處理這些事情嘛但這是一個惡性循環嘛那我們用什麼樣的方法來處理所以我們前面跟你談了我們要針對這個觀光客的人流長短時間來做有效的輔導轉型甚至是允許他整病等等這是志願談這個的原因但我覺得短期的問題還是要解決我希望我相信台灣年輕的消費者會希望政府拿出一些手段"},{"start":16898.227,"end":16921.778,"text":"現行的機制是是我有一個價格一個錨定但我允許一定的浮動有一個價格天花板但是天花板跟房價格的差距是比較大的那就會出現這樣的狀況我是希望在這樣子一個配套制度跟相關的法則法規上我希望交通部提一個想法我們先做交流我們再來考慮要不要啟動官方這個發展條例的修法可以嗎好辛苦了不好意思主席謝謝"},{"start":16923.917,"end":16940.692,"text":"好 謝謝牛委員我想也請次長跟署長這邊您先請回面信不過簡單一分鐘現在問題就我對市場的瞭解你們到最後可能也發不到多少錢甚至很可能沒有一家業者違規是因為重點在於是"},{"start":16941.713,"end":16962.948,"text":"根本的問題是飯店他報的定價就是相對比較高的那他平常時候他就用打折的價錢去促銷那現在才回歸譬如說一萬二一萬五他就是回歸到原價那但是對於一般的民眾來講或是市場機制來講其實這就算是一種哄抬"},{"start":16963.789,"end":16979.666,"text":"可是他有沒有符合規定其實有符合規定你也沒有辦法罰到他那但是我們應該要檢討的應該是說那當初這個飯店他報出來三星級飯店可是他報出來說他一個晚上的售價可以到一萬五一萬八的時候合不合理"},{"start":16980.796,"end":17004.967,"text":"因為這等於是我們合法給他一個空間未來有機會讓他去做烘台他平常只有賣一千八兩千結果到這種特定的時候他回歸到原價可是我們無法可管所以我覺得這才是一個根本的問題我想今天大白話也感謝牛許廷委員把他給點出來那真的請觀光署好好的徹底檢討這樣的一個狀況好"},{"start":17007.745,"end":17031.342,"text":"再來請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在請葉元之委員質詢麻煩請次長還有署長林次長 陳署長請"},{"start":17039.321,"end":17053.311,"text":"委員好市長 署長好觀光一定要跨部會來推動以前國民黨執政的時候有一個觀光推我知道今年好像行政院現在有一個觀光振興委員會是不是資訊委員會開幾次了"},{"start":17056.213,"end":17082.264,"text":"今年開第三次開第三次那有什麼跨部會重大的成就嗎有沒有 什麼講一個就好要求整合各個部會提出他們的要求整合 早就該整合了但是以往在做很多單位是他自己行銷所以嘛所以民進黨執政八年多第九年賣到第十年現在才思考說觀光要整合"},{"start":17083.284,"end":17104.121,"text":"這個好像還在那種已知用火的年代啦這個經濟部跟觀光署或者是交通部好像說要推一個會展消費卡是不是要給10萬商務客來台灣一個人出資2000元是嗎順道旅遊順道旅遊進來之後給他2000塊嘛類似消費卡是不是"},{"start":17104.961,"end":17132.095,"text":"那是經濟部推的是不是然後經濟部聯手交通部我們推的是順道旅遊順道旅遊那沒關係 署長我想請教一下經濟部推這個類消費類悠遊卡進來之後一個人發一張兩千塊讓他幹嘛呢讓他搭車去超商買東西逛百貨公司去餐廳吃飯我想請教一下請問一下國外的商務旅客到台灣他們花不到兩千塊吧"},{"start":17134.011,"end":17162.882,"text":"他花不到兩千塊嗎 他們如果不給他的卡 他也花不到兩千塊嗎他要不要吃飯 要不要坐車要吧那結果交通部連同經濟部推這個東西你給他兩千塊 他就是把他原本要花費的錢現在變成台灣人幫他付而已啊不是嗎所以怎麼會推這種交通部跟經濟部怎麼會跟他推這種我看起來好莫名其妙的東西喔欸 是"},{"start":17164.809,"end":17186.625,"text":"交通部公共署推的是順道旅遊比如說他來參加會議三天我們希望他多留兩天那多留兩天如果這兩天時間是在週間的話我們會補貼他兩千塊一天如果他是週末日的話是一天是一千五這個是公共署的政策那經濟部的那個部分我不知道"},{"start":17188.506,"end":17211.048,"text":"所以你們跨部會協調就有問題因為剛剛已經講了行政院有一個諮詢跨部會的會議經濟部讓那些商務客來給他錢當然是希望他留在台灣消費當然這跟觀光也有關所以這個本來就是要你推觀光署推觀光署的然後經濟部推經濟部但其實大家做的都是類似的東西"},{"start":17211.428,"end":17239.996,"text":"你希望他多留兩天吃雞消費他給他2000塊叫他吃雞消費其實做的一樣東西啊資源也沒有整合啊那資源沒有整合的情況之下如果單看經濟部做的事情你就覺得你會覺得非常的荒謬嘛你會覺得非常荒謬嘛那署長剛剛講的說讓他順道旅遊我請問他的成效好嗎真的有很多人他本來是要來三天機票都已經買了三天兩夜然後因為你給他2000塊他就願意多待兩天去改機票"},{"start":17241.895,"end":17262.24,"text":"這個成效有嗎我有看到相關的數據那就以我個人來看我確實覺得有待再加強所以之前數據是怎麼樣到今年是今年到1月1號到9月底的順道公關旅遊大概14件申請的金額大概是335萬7千元"},{"start":17264.441,"end":17286.602,"text":"那這塊部分呢就像剛剛那個時候你說幾件14件就是9個月只有14個人因為這個計畫然後去改了他的機票他是團體不是個人是團體4個人到30個人都是一個團體所以可見這一種給不管是商務客也好或者是觀光客你花納稅人的錢用我們台灣人的錢"},{"start":17288.363,"end":17316.605,"text":"讓他們來消費這一招是行不通的啦這個都是枝微末節很治標不治本的狀況我覺得如果說今天行政院跨部會會議要成立的話你應該要針對本的問題去做解決譬如說剛剛大家討論的問題價格的問題因為我有看到有那種公司要帶員工旅遊本來是要去南部然後結果查一查發現價格貴得驚人後來去查去日本比較便宜全團去日本就員工高興得不得了同樣價錢可以出國"},{"start":17317.765,"end":17340.386,"text":"你要從這個方面去解決然後飯店的那個價格高到嚇死人所以大家不願意兩天一夜都當天來回這個問題要去解決還有一個是為什麼台灣人喜歡去日本因為日本很多品牌你去的一去再去譬如說櫻木花道的郵程或者是木福家康的郵程或什麼之類他有很多不同的"},{"start":17341.007,"end":17356.955,"text":"多元的還有侏羅紀公園什麼之類就是很多大家可以我今天去這個地方我下次還可以再去台灣現在的問題就是說很多人來了一次了不起兩次可能就沒有再來的這個是很多本質性的問題我覺得我覺得應該是要去解決的"},{"start":17358.075,"end":17379.375,"text":"所以然後再來就是像我們常常在教育文化委員會我覺得那故宮那麼好的一個國寶國寶的這個東西在那邊都不宣傳都沒有去告訴國外說我們台灣有一個故宮裡面有很多很棒的國寶它有很多故事然後那個故事中華文化可能你們是因為民進黨講到中華文化就排斥就不願意去講這東西其實"},{"start":17381.337,"end":17404.549,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一開始就問整合的問題如果觀光署或行政院真的有心要推展觀光的話台灣其實大家一起來聯合推動效果會好很多真的比你們花納稅人錢補助那些外國人我看到你跟經濟部講一下因為新聞是講經濟部連同交通部如果交通部沒有的話你們就背黑鍋那真的很可笑那個制度給2000塊"},{"start":17406.73,"end":17417.841,"text":"人家外國人來本來就會花兩千塊你花兩千塊以上啊你等於是我洪旺愷請他們的啊他本來就會花這個錢啊做這個效益經營評估在哪裡所以我覺得"},{"start":17419.181,"end":17438.623,"text":"因為署長是剛也是剛上任應該署長就我的了解也是這塊也是很熟應該我認為應該要提一些真正治本的方法大家都很關心觀光除了人事之外還包括在地的消費這些我們真的希望台灣在觀光這塊不要落後人家太多好 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Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等21人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。\n二、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等20人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員邱鎮軍等24人及委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n三、審查：\n行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、委員羅美玲等19人、委員賴惠員等21人、委員黃捷等22人、委員陳亭妃等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」條文對照表。\n以上全案於10月29日（星期三）進行合併詢答，10月30日（星期四）處理。\n【10月29日及30日二天一次會】（請參閱開會通知單及議程））","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-30T08:40:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T10:02:00+08:00","duration":4863,"影片長度":"01:21:03","委員發言時間":"08:40:57 - 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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1217.675,"end":1219.897,"text":"討論事項一審查行政行政審議"},{"start":1234.093,"end":1241.541,"text":"委員王美樂等20人 委員李坤城等18人委員吳麗華等16人 委員賴瑞榮等16人委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃婕等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人委員邱振軍等17人"},{"start":1248.496,"end":1277.587,"text":"等21人 委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據電業法第71條之一條文修正查案等11案 二審查行政案件審議 委員王美惠等20人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳立華等16人 委員賴銳龍等16人 委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳情飛等17人 委員邱振軍等24人及委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據自然天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案等11案"},{"start":1278.993,"end":1304.104,"text":"三 審查行政院行政審議 委員王美惠等19人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃婕等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人及委員吳佩義等16人 分別擬據自來水法第91條之一條文修正草案等9案及委員賴瑞郎等16人擬據自來水法第3條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1307.212,"end":1327.126,"text":"我们现在先介绍现场的列席官员首先是经济部常务次长赖建信赖次长谢谢能源署署长李军理理署长水利署署长林元鹏林署长中油副总经理黄荣裕黄副总还有电力公司处长刘建勋刘处长"},{"start":1328.12,"end":1345.161,"text":"我們台水總經理李丁來 李總經理海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶清 謝副署長還有內政部地政司檢任視察張哲銘 張視察後還有我們國家安全局第三處專委"},{"start":1346.022,"end":1375.24,"text":"黄专委谢谢还有交通部港局副局长陈冰泉谢谢还有法务部参事廖江县这个廖参事那还没开始之前我想那个其实我们很多的那个都是一样就是在咨询就是说像我昨天在跟内政部沟通的就是当我们七法要正式上路的时候我们要有一个宣誓来看这里我们的咨询就是在这里"},{"start":1376.221,"end":1401.164,"text":"那我们可以提供给大家的大概在哪边给大家清楚知道否则其实我们很多在诉讼的一个争议就是说我不知道那你也知道说大概大家到时候都是律师那种强大律师群的论战所以我觉得我们先把这些问题做好就是说就是在这里"},{"start":1402.064,"end":1423.021,"text":"那你們可以提供什麼你們最清楚那提供什麼然後位置在哪裡就是說就是在這裡那我們的七法要上路了請大家遵守我們也資訊在哪裡都給你們了千萬不要明知而故犯我覺得這很重要所以這大概"},{"start":1424.298,"end":1442.898,"text":"因为在那个委员里面也有一个委员是有这样的提案可是我知道那个要入法是很困难的然后也有困难所以我想我们到时候那个你写个附带决我觉得你们写个附带决就是说像我讲的这个样子就在期法上路的时候内政部会有一个"},{"start":1444.248,"end":1471.713,"text":"比较透明跟大家这个资讯跟大家说就是在这里一个宣示性的我觉得是不是我们写一个附带决议这样子大家就会比较安心不会是说到时候会有一些争议我们希望就是不要争议我们既然法从这个刑事跟处罚的部分都有的话那么我们就给大家更清楚了解"},{"start":1472.964,"end":1486.293,"text":"你要負擔什麼樣的責任可是你也知道那是在哪裡不會讓你故意去誤闖好這樣子那我們先好"},{"start":1487.813,"end":1510.796,"text":"我们讨论事项所列议案共三案本会在昨日会议均已询答结束也宣读条文完毕那我们今日继续审查那我们因为刚刚还有个修正东还没签完那我们等他修正东一过来之后再来那个那这个时间先去跟那个省委员刚刚不是来吗"},{"start":1511.677,"end":1533.571,"text":"對我介紹一下沈伯央委員來先跟沈伯央委員溝通一下你他的那個議案對我們先休息謝謝我們另外在場委員還要再兩位我們現在已經都在路上了不好意思因為我們真的電梯很難等大家稍等一下"},{"start":1547.824,"end":1572.212,"text":"您好"},{"start":1585.9,"end":1590.762,"text":"那个那个那个因为球营委员你们昨天只有找到他们那个嘛"},{"start":2034.148,"end":2061.401,"text":"開始了來 我們OK了嗎 來好 來 謝謝"},{"start":2072.642,"end":2090.111,"text":"好 謝謝我尊重妳"},{"start":2101.499,"end":2128.383,"text":"沒有 我尊重你 你的事情沒有改過 我不敢開啦沒有啦 他就 這裡就有時間怎麼先說怎麼樣 這是怎麼樣我說OK吧 這裡沒問題嘛所以我這裡有啦 他去扁手啊 他去扁手啦他弄完才出去啦他弄完才出去啦"},{"start":2137.547,"end":2147.45,"text":"開始開會謝謝來我們現在好來我們所有都會回到座位上謝謝來"},{"start":2171.923,"end":2196.665,"text":"好來其他我們就那個你知道問題在哪裡待會就說明就好了來我們回到我們的位置上面去來謝謝那我們現在協商討論事項第一案電業法第71條11條文修正草案共有11個提案版本及楊瓊英委員的等人的修正動議那我們本次會一併審查我們請經濟部次長說明"},{"start":2200.236,"end":2202.478,"text":"報告主席 諸位委員 這是經濟部所提出來的"},{"start":2213.596,"end":2239.293,"text":"电液法天然气事业法跟自来水法的这个主要的说明那主要的意旨是针对于我们过去没有注意到没有特别去强调的部分是过失而且是海底管线的部分因为这些都涉及到民生还有包括国家安全所以我们希望在这边有一个明确的规范那至于相关的可能我们还是有一些必须要一些嚇阻的"},{"start":2240.193,"end":2261.487,"text":"一些的所謂的法條一個規範所以我們針對於針對故意侵害海底的電纜或是海底有管線措施那我們明定說那將來他的犯罪的工具船舶或是其他的機械設備予以沒入這個規定希望起的一個嚇阻的效果 懇請委員會大力支持"},{"start":2262.028,"end":2288.064,"text":"那今天諸多委員的這個提案我們也願意聆聽委員的指導意見然後會前也跟諸位委員做一個溝通希望大家支持院版的案子以上報告我也跟大家報告因為昨天我們在結束之前我有請我們經濟部的部長要協同我們相關的人員同仁一定要跟我們各委員提案委員去做說明"},{"start":2288.644,"end":2311.321,"text":"那现在基本上我们也会尊重所有虽然提案委员没有在现场那基本上他们都没有意义那依照院版没有意义就是说有不同这个提案版本的依照院版没有意义那我们现在就先请教我们有在场的有这个杨琼英委员有没有什么样的意见您"},{"start":2314.09,"end":2327.256,"text":"對 院版 對他們對院版沒有意見安妮呢那那個修正動議是…那我們提的修正動議都一樣所以你有什麼意見就一併處理所以我們剛剛我們所提的三個案子的修正動議他們都同意"},{"start":2328.979,"end":2350.684,"text":"他們都同意因為院版有的文字是沒有所以你變成你的會議記錄就是我們的提案所以就有你的提所以我再請他們做最後確認你們的意見就是您有修正動議的部分我們有修正動議三個案子剛剛也經過會前的一個協商就是要請問你們"},{"start":2352.314,"end":2366.614,"text":"针对于我们修正动议的内容他们刚刚有协调过你们是同意的吗来 你说明来 市长说明谢谢委员指导我们第一个指导的意见是针对于这个"},{"start":2368.022,"end":2391.447,"text":"過失的部分 行渡的部分行渡的部分因為我們考量到一個比例的原則事實上在過去我們實際上維護管理的過程裡面針對海底管線或是纜線的設施有時候是民眾或是漁民或是管理的人員因為他的作業然後造成一個過失造成我們這些諸類的設施來損害"},{"start":2393.187,"end":2411.944,"text":"那我们希望说在这个部分来跟故意做一个区隔那所以恳请委员针对于包括所谓的刑度的部分因为我们跟其他的集法是一样的那建议说委员予以支持那第二点的这个意见是委员有询问到包括管线"},{"start":2412.825,"end":2423.939,"text":"跟海底電纜跟管路之間的有一個不同那在這邊經濟部所提的三個法裡面其中包括電液法的部分它是一個電纜線電纜線它裡面有實際的所謂的電線的實心的設施"},{"start":2429.286,"end":2458.566,"text":"那管路比如说是包括油气管路或是自来水管路它是一个空心的概念那在这个部分其实我们国家也有明确针对于电缆跟管路之间不同有做定义那第三点的一个意见就是说刚刚委员有提到过失的一个部分其他就是因为过失除了针对于海底管线之外针对于过失对其他设施会有影响"},{"start":2459.566,"end":2481.077,"text":"正常营运之不渝的也要纳入这个里面来处理那这个部分因为它可能就会有涉及到比如说我们的陆地上的一些的管线的开挖或是说我们电厂或是说我们水厂里面的营运我们建议说是比照我们院版7法的这个案例在这个部分予以排除以上"},{"start":2481.897,"end":2509.455,"text":"好 那個主席針對於三個的部分就是說因為過失毀損我們今天之所以要修這個法也就是希望它能夠真正的安全而且找出是誰破壞的我們的目的是如此照剛剛市長所說的三項裡頭唯一一個就是在自來水的部分就是路上的不納入在這個考量我們這次修法的部分是只有針對於地底下"},{"start":2510.337,"end":2511.782,"text":"剛剛市長的說法是不是如此市長"},{"start":2513.777,"end":2541.17,"text":"妳剛才的說法精神是不是如此精神跟方向是不是如此因為那個涵蓋面會太廣那這樣子就是說在本席所提案的這個部分就是針對自來水的部分刪除剛剛所說的那你們文字修正希望怎麼修請你們待會寫出來好 謝謝文字修正那另外這個自來水的這個案子我們一案一案來 來來來對 她三個案子沒有 她三個案子一起來她報告完了"},{"start":2541.73,"end":2570.096,"text":"我知道他報告完但是我們要一案一案審因為我們要一案一案出 對可是他三項都有一併報告完啊那你就趕快把自來水那個文字怎麼修你把它修完寫來那電頁法的部分電頁法就針對於電頁法第71條之一的這個部分那這個沒有問題啊本席的提案你們同意這些文字嗎"},{"start":2573.031,"end":2600.974,"text":"對 電頁法電頁法就是依照本席所我們這個修正同意同意啊同意他們同意啊他修正同意你們同意啊你們的文字你們再修出來我們待會再宣讀沒有他同意啊這不用了電頁法同意啊對啊這本席所提的修正同意是一樣是一致的嘛你同意楊委員的修正的文字電頁法電頁法修正文字你還把它"},{"start":2601.574,"end":2626.07,"text":"拿过来同意啊再宣读好OK再宣读好然后我们先宣读你现在想要一案一案就对了没有没有那个我们先宣读一下还有一个修正动议对你先宣读那个沈伯扬那个这个修正动议订业法第七十一条之一修正动议第二案修正第四项除第四项修正委员等一下等一下他在宣读"},{"start":2627.171,"end":2646.216,"text":"因过失毁坏海底电力电缆之功能正常运作者处一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科薪台币300万元以下罚金其余同行政院提案提案人陈亭飞 邱毅英 杨琼英 沈伯扬天然气失业法第55条之一修正冬季第二案"},{"start":2647.156,"end":2673.173,"text":"第55條之一 處第四項修正為因過失毀壞天然氣進口事業之海底輸氣管線之功能正常運作者處一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科興臺幣300萬元以下罰金其餘同行政院提案提案人陳亭飛 邱益英 楊瓊英 沈伯陽自來水法第97條之一修正動議第二案第97條之一"},{"start":2675.393,"end":2693.997,"text":"除第四項修正為因過濕毀壞自來水事業之海底送水管線之功能正常運作者除一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金其餘通行政院提案提案人陳亭飛 邱益穎 楊瓊英 沈伯陽宣讀完畢"},{"start":2701.985,"end":2717.155,"text":"好來那個來瑞榮委員好我想針對於整個這個提案包括電液法包括天然氣視野法還有自來水法不管是電纜或者是天然氣管或者是自來水管水管的部分其實都非常重要都適宜到"},{"start":2718.105,"end":2747.013,"text":"國安的問題所以我支持整個必須要加重那除了過失之外如果故意當然必須要加的更重這個才能夠嚇阻那我也建議各位是不是能夠都支持行政院版本那當然如果院版裡面其他的部分的委員的能夠納入的也希望行政院經濟部門整體來考量好不好一併來納入我們希望這個法更完善那能夠更確保我們國家的安全確保包括這些電纜包括自來水管包括天然氣管的安全"},{"start":2747.438,"end":2774.411,"text":"我希望用这样的方式能够加快审查的速度谢谢我跟大家报告一下因为现在几乎我们电缆三法所有的案子所以我先念过一次我们大概一个案一个案来做通过但是我现在我们针对就是那个电液法第71条之一条文修正草案然后还有第二案是天然气失业法"},{"start":2774.751,"end":2797.775,"text":"第55条之一条文修正草案其中也是一个版本还有杨琼英委员的修正动议还有我们自来水法就是我们的讨论第三案自来水法第三条第16条之一及第97条之一的条文修正草案共有10个版本及杨琼英委员等人的修正动议所以我们就全部一起讨论然后待会我们就"},{"start":2798.155,"end":2825.925,"text":"一個案一個案通過來確認所有的內容所以大家發言可以一致喔因為我看大家都壞話都一樣沒有沒有沒辦法因為意思沒辦法因為剛跟議事人員溝通的不然大家都說一樣因為像瑞隆也是啊所以對對來那個我們請沈伯央委員待會兒請他喝飲料 請他要伯伯哥來沈伯央委員"},{"start":2826.668,"end":2849.254,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那針對這個電業法71條之一我這邊提的修正動議 因為我的還來不及進委員會那這邊其實很簡單第一個就是我們這個跟院版其實在當時討論過來回多次但是我後來在看的時候發現文字上有一些奇怪的地方第一個就是我們在71條之一目前的刑度在故意的設計上是一年到七年"},{"start":2849.814,"end":2877.862,"text":"那我們過失的設計是六個月以下中間有一個急劇的一個差異那剛剛已經有跟他們溝通了就是說當然在刑法上面本來有時候也都會有這種故意跟過失刑度差距比較大的一個狀況但因為今天海嵐的部分因為破壞海嵐這件事情他很容易就是很難證明故意所以就會全部送到過失所以如果這邊的過失跟故意有差一個急劇的話我覺得可能在嚇阻上效果會比較差"},{"start":2878.502,"end":2900.684,"text":"所以如果一個是1到7年過失應該用一年以下我覺得在這一種案例裡面會比較合理這是第一點那第二點很多人就會怕說那這個很多過失毀壞是愚民那這樣的話會不會很容易就出現就讓這一條變一年以下所以這邊我還有第二個文字上的調整就是原本的條文寫過失毀壞或以其他非法方法"},{"start":2901.064,"end":2928.205,"text":"我把其他非法方法拿掉有兩個原因第一個讓他的條文比較線索第二個是其實在我們刑法上的設計非法方法這個東西他都是除非現在故意啦他不會出現在過失所以你很難去想像什麼叫做過失以其他非法方法為害這個在刑法上面其實是沒有出現的唯一出現只有在過去電信法的一個條文因為他出現過那麼一次結果這次全部都是超難一個所以才會變成這個樣子但"},{"start":2930.026,"end":2957.787,"text":"如果今天不把那個拿掉對執法上不會有任何的影響所以這個就是看這一個目前的這一個主管機關的想法那前面那一個一年的部分呢我就先不講說到底嚇阻的效果如何但是我認為在戈海蘭的狀況之下不要有中間那個急劇的跳過去一到七年完以後直接變一年以下可能會比較合理那我其他的修正案也都是一樣的意思謝謝謝謝我們那個還有誰要發言議員謝謝"},{"start":2962.416,"end":2963.12,"text":"主席我是不是能夠請"},{"start":2964.983,"end":2993.663,"text":"今天法務部有沒有來 法務部是參事嘛對好 那個能不能請法務部的參事就剛剛沈伯陽委員所提出的這個法律意見法務部你們的看法是什麼那我覺得可能對於經濟部來講經濟部有原來自己的考量嘛那就整個法律條文上面的修正意見我是不是想要聽一下法務部的看法好嗎我們請法務部要參事 謝謝"},{"start":2998.937,"end":3011.801,"text":"主席各位那針對這個過失這一個相次的修法那目前目前在我們的法治上就是電信管理法72條"},{"start":3013.784,"end":3040.943,"text":"他有這一個過失犯的處罰就是當時在112年關鍵基礎設施22部法案修法的時候那其中的一部分那目前的現行法治上處罰這個過失犯的規定大概就是電信管理法72條的這個第四項第四項他有這個規定那刑度呢就是跟院版院版的"},{"start":3042.044,"end":3051.751,"text":"這一個條文大概都是參考電管法電信管理法的這個規定而來包括刑度在內那至於說"},{"start":3053.362,"end":3078.057,"text":"行動是不是要調整因為除了剛剛沈委員的這個臨時提案我看目前的草案裡面包括李坤城委員賴瑞榮委員他們在有期徒刑還有罰金也有類似的這個修正你不能你不要跟我講其他委員的類似修正我要問的是您的法律意見你的法律意見我的法律意見就是說"},{"start":3078.517,"end":3099.563,"text":"因為我們這次的修法三部它保護的法例也都是關鍵基礎設施的安全就是跟電信管理法的立法目的或它保護的法例是一樣的那除非政策上有比較特殊的需求否則的話我是建議還是維持原版"},{"start":3100.779,"end":3114.148,"text":"比較能夠跟電信管理法這邊會保持它的均衡性不然的話你會出現同樣是關節基礎設施的一個保護規定那電信管理法是規定的刑度是6年以下6個月以下罰金是200萬"},{"start":3119.943,"end":3142.908,"text":"那我們這邊處理這三部法案它的行動又拉高了那在整個關鍵基礎設施的保護機制上它的均衡性可能會出現一點問題所以我的意見目前來講就是說我們這三部法如果政策上沒有比較明顯的一個需求那建議還是維持原版"},{"start":3144.281,"end":3167.169,"text":"那個我對不起主席我再請教一下就是其實電業這個台體電纜的七法是會一併修的所以下個禮拜交通委員會他們就會排電信管理法那我要請教就是說剛剛伯陽的那個意見比如說你的一年到七年的有期徒刑接下來應該"},{"start":3168.959,"end":3195.34,"text":"他的見解沈博洋的見解是接下來是一年以下有期徒刑可是我們的版本寫的是六個月以下有期徒刑所以你的六個月跟一年之間是有一個gap在的嘛我其實是想要請教您的意見在法條的設計上面這個這個是不是會有會有什麼樣的問題會有什麼樣的過失犯的刑度他並沒有說法律上明定他一定"},{"start":3196.38,"end":3224.254,"text":"要定多少就是說那個是一個立法政策裁量跟立法裁量的立法問題不是說你過一半是一年以上然後過四半就一定一定要多少在法律上他是沒有明文做這種限制這是一個立法裁量的問題那個伯陽你等一下我們先請瓊英你在發言"},{"start":3227.867,"end":3244.244,"text":"三個統一的部分那個次長在這邊就是說我們剛剛電頁法跟天然氣這個照本席的修正文字你們是同意的對不對電頁法是同意的天然氣呢"},{"start":3246.363,"end":3265.377,"text":"來 我們一項一項嘛一項一項對 這樣比較快天然氣本席的修正動議就是你那個電纜跟管道的問題那個啦沒有 那個是解釋對 那個解釋天然氣那個解釋我們了解其實管道通通都是管道只是你們把它分析分析那個叫電纜這個本席可以接受"},{"start":3267.102,"end":3292.8,"text":"那所以你這個天然氣第55條之一本席的修正動議是ok的嗎文字你們是同意的嗎我們一項一項看這個原本委員提案行為兩個字啊非法行為我們建議改成非法方法好可以是七法統一的這個用語對對對好可以行為因過失毀損壞以其他非法方法"},{"start":3293.732,"end":3319.531,"text":"好本席同意那所以主席台這個天然氣事業法第55條之一修正同意就照剛剛的修正文字通過行為改革方法好最後一個自來水的部分來自來水的部分有兩個點第一個就是我剛剛一開始有講的自來水的部分就是我們現在只處理"},{"start":3320.796,"end":3349.332,"text":"地底下的所以地上的不涵蓋在裡面你們的希望是如此那我要勉勵我經過溝通我可以勉強接受因為我們通過這三個法最重要的一個穩定性一個安全度這個非常重要那所以呢統一先處理地底下我現在可以同意剛剛你們也提出了這個希望要更改"},{"start":3350.152,"end":3368.102,"text":"的這個文字我剛剛簽了那其中有一項也是金額的部分金額的部分過失的這個部分呢本席所提的是300萬你們希望是200萬你是不是再給我說明一下金額的差別"},{"start":3368.991,"end":3396.096,"text":"今年的差別第一個是我們希望三百萬變成兩百萬對 差別是什麼第一個所有我們今天的三法事實上都是跟民眾的生活是有關係的而且這個關係的重要程度是不相上下所以我們建議說在這個財量上面或者行度上面的話或是罰金上面是有一致的一個好 這個剛剛市長所說主席台"},{"start":3397.496,"end":3406.682,"text":"雖然市長說希望是三個都一樣但是實際上三個的程度是不一樣的"},{"start":3407.728,"end":3433.179,"text":"你光光它的深度它的長度你完全會不一樣所以它受損的程度也會不一樣但是經過溝通本來我們就是溝通經過溝通所以我要本席要提出本席的論點所以剛剛次長所說的三個都一樣我告訴你三個是都不一樣的樣態但是我勉強可以同意我們循序漸進"},{"start":3434.46,"end":3449.203,"text":"我們以鼓勵替代處罰但是還是要罰所以300萬調為200萬本席同意但是我有一個重點我希望各三單位你們也要做預防的工作"},{"start":3450.124,"end":3470.949,"text":"我們不要說北市不知道就一定過失你還要還這個還一個層面另外就是影響到我們的穩定安全這個才是我們最傷腦筋的所以本期要具體建立因為我們經濟委員會都是最團結的我們來一個主決議請他們在預防方面要多餘去宣導"},{"start":3472.309,"end":3489.46,"text":"所以待會本席提一個這個組決議怎麼樣去宣導我們大家一致讓它通過好不好因為這樣子才會整個完整好不好好 謝謝委員OK那自來水的部分就照剛剛本席簽字的修正文字通過三個案子 謝謝"},{"start":3490.08,"end":3519.666,"text":"那個那個楊昭那個還沒開始之前我已經有請內政部就你剛剛說的要這個主角的那個就已經請他們在你了好我想大家的意見都一樣來我們請邱志偉委員這個這個楊委員修正動議我覺得還我沒有意見但是我問一下這個過去的案例來說過失或故意過失或者故意有沒有過去有哪些案子"},{"start":3521.601,"end":3545.712,"text":"你一般的日海水事業的海底運送管線很少會是故意的很少會是過失的過去案例你分析一下是過失的多還是故意的多謝謝委員這個問題是不是容我們請海巡署因為海上巡訪的時候他才會援引法律我們請海巡署副署長"},{"start":3550.168,"end":3576.463,"text":"跟委員報告我們最近幾年大概都沒有處理到自來水現在就報告最近五年的話平均大概都八件都是海底電信管理法的通傳會的自來水的部分呢?不然目前我們還沒有受理到類似的案件那您預判如果自來水運送的這些管線會不會破壞是過失多還是故意多?"},{"start":3577.083,"end":3591.345,"text":"我們現在這要看個案認定比方說今年2月25號我們我們代案紅太多個級的紅太貨船他就在台南外海拉斷 拉斷海底電纜那這個案子檢察官是用故意"},{"start":3592.383,"end":3612.883,"text":"故意跟他起訴然後法院判刑三年這樣他應該是故意表示他是這樣 要看個人認定因為他是這樣海底他這艘船這艘船它有海底電子海圖電子海圖有標示那個海底電纜的位置那他在海底電纜位置那個地方他是下茅"},{"start":3613.871,"end":3640.857,"text":"第二個中華電信它有發送告警訊號結果它沒有開AIS所以都沒有接收那從我們收證的跡象另外我們包括我們雷情的航機回放所有資訊都會給包括航海知識等都會給檢察官個案認定檢察官依個案證據的話依照論理法則跟紀念法則他研判這個案子是故意是 所以要看個案認定所以我認為會"},{"start":3642.777,"end":3663.937,"text":"海底的縱水管線會受到破壞啊大概是故意的或者它有意志性委員我可以跟你再補充報告一下因為近海的話我們管線被拉斷大概都是近海的比較多都12海里內因為水會比較淺那很多狀況是也有我們漁民在作業 抵托作業"},{"start":3664.918,"end":3689.806,"text":"不管是不是違規啦 監探策略不可以抵托不過也有是用抵托在作業的我們也有查到 也有移送法辦那抵托作業很單純他是在作業他就是哪邊有魚哪邊抓那這個案子的話會嚴重到破壞管線嗎是 也有破壞我們海底電纜那這部分的話檢察官會認定 會認定他是過失所以要依照個案事實來認定"},{"start":3692.101,"end":3706.93,"text":"我是不是也追問一下延澤智為委員那署長因為 副長因為以前的大概每年大概七到八件那過去這些時間以來七到八件裡面有多少是你們認定是故意有多少是認定是過失的"},{"start":3708.511,"end":3735.867,"text":"幾乎是一半一半各一半是一半因為我們的漁民大概都我們認為都是在作業所以我們的漁民多數是過失的就是在拖不小心的數據我們現在我們檢測我們包括以前最早還是用跟中華電信用和解的方式來處理那當然修法之後都是有形式的那不過跟委員報告關鍵在於有中資背景他們都是權力論都是"},{"start":3737.029,"end":3758.43,"text":"掛在外國那這一部分的話我們就用國安層級來看的話因為從航機從AS關閉等等等等雖然不能完全排除它是過失不過從整個跡象來看以鴻太虎18號這個案例來看檢查官從我們收證的基證研判綜合研判他認定是"},{"start":3759.397,"end":3775.446,"text":"故意所以這個案子真的跟委員報告要是個案收證來所以海巡署的看法呢你們認為其實把故意跟過去的部分我們認為應該要分層級因為這個案子因為是最重要的是從眾跟委員報告其中"},{"start":3776.286,"end":3799.676,"text":"意圖影響國家安全跟社會安定甚至已經提高到10年以下華金是5000萬那接下來還有一個故意1年跟7年1000萬以下過失啦過失過失的話因為也牽涉到我們漁民的也有可能是漁民所以我們通盤檢討就比照電信管理法我們認定我們建議還是用6個月"},{"start":3801.337,"end":3830.208,"text":"以下然後200萬以下罰金我們就認為是法律上的話會整理會比較平好了解那另外我再補充一下這個自來水法的部分我有提了一些意見包括圖資的部分能夠建立起來那經濟部的意見是不需要再已經有了相關規定不需要再訂了但我會建議次長再考慮一下既然有了訂上去也並沒有影響的話那是不是把它訂上去把它訂得更清楚這個請次長是不是再考慮看看"},{"start":3831.449,"end":3854.871,"text":"謝謝委員的指導這個部分我們相關的圖資其實主席跟召委都有指示現在海委會它有一個國家海洋資料庫國家海洋資料庫相關的圖資全部都在這個地方可以讓民眾第一個知道當然宣導的部分也是非常的重要我們也感謝委員指導意見那寫上了有什麼影響嗎"},{"start":3855.745,"end":3878.237,"text":"因为其他的这个部分他并没有这样子来论述那另外一个部分是在自然水滑的管理上面那个自然水滑那请雷正博内政部回答一下因为这个对对对那个我请我们已经有请他写个附带决议了因为他们有一些不便之处的部分对来你说明一下"},{"start":3878.857,"end":3895.303,"text":"跟委員說明一下一般船舶在海上如果要資料的話其實不像陸地它會有網路所以它必須要有專業的一個設備那以目前國際來講其實專業設備就是所謂的ADIS系統那ADIS系統就是在船載上國際工業要求一定要裝載的"},{"start":3896.343,"end":3911.381,"text":"那以這樣的圖紙來講其實我們會有所謂政府已經有發布所謂的電子航行圖就ENC部分那國際工業要求這些船舶除了ADIS設備要求之外那你行經我們周邊海域都不需要購買或裝置我們的電子航行圖"},{"start":3912.102,"end":3938.013,"text":"那圖紙上面就會顯示委員所垂行到的有關海嵐跟管道的資訊那以這樣的資訊來講 其實如果他有裝載這些added system或是這樣的圖紙其實他應該知道我們海嵐路由的路徑在哪邊那如果刻意在周邊做徘徊或直直行的一個航行的話其實在認定來講 比較有利於認定是所謂的一個故意的一個過失犯以上"},{"start":3938.713,"end":3952.954,"text":"我想這個部分我們在休息的時候有跟他們溝通就是說我們用附帶決議這個也是我們所有委員都非常關切的就是說如果我們資訊不透明可能未來會變成輸送的爭議"},{"start":3953.935,"end":3981.578,"text":"就是说他会说我不知道所以呢他们基本上现在都有一套系统可是我们希望在我们海揽七法政治上路之前我们一定要做宣示就是我们有哪些系统我们有哪些资料你是可以取得的那如果你有取得而故意然后去做这些迫害那你就是属于故意就没有什么我们会请那个他会有一个附带决议那个条文是附带决议"},{"start":3984.076,"end":4000.965,"text":"對 就是附帶決議條文是附帶決議所以我們就會待會一併宣讀因為這個是我們大家所關心的不要未來變成是訴訟的爭議所以這個部分我們請內政部來擬定這樣的一個條文附帶決議的條文那我們現在請沈博洋委員"},{"start":4003.626,"end":4022.012,"text":"好那我再附帶說明因為剛剛也有跟法務部在討論就是說因為今天這一個像我們在法律的設計上面這個故意跟過失刑度有差距這個是常見但是因為今天海蘭真的是比較特別一點就是說他一旦他不能夠證明故意的話大部分都會落入到這一個過失犯"},{"start":4022.632,"end":4048.772,"text":"所以如果它中間有這一個差距的話會比較不容易達到嚇阻的效果但是如果說今天不是要這一年以下的話像剛剛這個楊委員也有提到這個300元以下的罰金其實我覺得都是可以考慮的一個做法但這個我覺得當然第一線執法單位有他們自己的一些意見因為過失的這一個範圍很廣各式各樣的過失都有而且很多是我們自己的漁民的一些過失但我覺得這個還是應該要納入考慮以上 謝謝"},{"start":4051.711,"end":4059.103,"text":"來 那個是不是OK啦 這樣子你接那個好 來 那有委員還有發言嗎那我們現在OK了齁"},{"start":4063.926,"end":4091.482,"text":"我們有真的其他委員的意見有提案委員他們都是願意照願板楊瓊委員有些修正的一個文字是不是我們來這邊宣讀一下其他委員都沒意見嗎依照願板邱瑩委員賴瑞榮委員沒有只有瓊瑩有些修正文字修正文字給我水利署那"},{"start":4092.833,"end":4122.176,"text":"姊姊她修的跟行政院版一樣所以照行政院版通過好對就是一模一樣就瓊英委員所修正的也跟我們院版都一致啦那謝謝瓊英委員好這樣子OK啦來那我們來好那我們一案一案喔來一案一案說明"},{"start":4124.229,"end":4144.295,"text":"那我們電業法第71條之一我們照行政院院版通過天然氣事業法第55條之一照行政院院版通過自來水法因為第三沒有就是沒有啦就是我們自來水法也是照行政院版通過"},{"start":4146.946,"end":4165.327,"text":"所以第3條第16條之一我們就沒有就不予修正嗎對啊就維持現行條文來自然說自然說吧對好我知道我建議你是不是應該是我們就訂閱法造行政院版通過大家沒有意見這樣一個對"},{"start":4174.874,"end":4188.043,"text":"天然氣事業法第五十五條之一照行政院院版通過有沒有意見自來水法第三條我們不予通過然後維持現行條文有沒有意見沒有"},{"start":4188.396,"end":4204.132,"text":"那自來水法第16條之一我們不予增訂有沒有意見沒有那我們第91條之一我們就照行政院院版通過有沒有意見沒有那附帶決議等一下等一下主席你剛講97條之一喔不是91條喔你剛是念91條97條之一對97條之一"},{"start":4215.287,"end":4243.14,"text":"附帶決議 附帶決議內政部的附帶決議呢來 他還在修 來對 他還在修 來 等他印給大家還OK嗎來 連署 好 來不是不是 現在對 現在在連署啊 現在已經連署啊"},{"start":4246.849,"end":4250.532,"text":"我說他有沒有OK我們先確定他們OK我們才拿給大家看來"},{"start":4278.055,"end":4295.422,"text":"內政部來解釋一下OK 好了解請內政部與海南區域網絡通過請將海南區管道組織對外公布並會同如果是相關主委的話就都不用了"},{"start":4305.117,"end":4315.991,"text":"因會同,相關,這發掉了你這什麼海委會,這都不用了,相關單位可以的,可以的,可以的不然你怎麼這麼盡量,你怎麼...因為它都關得準,像中央部也關得準,就漁船,每天都搞到"},{"start":4322.519,"end":4337.502,"text":"不是啊,你這個還要寫嗎?如果有寫相關機關那邊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,可以啊,"},{"start":4350.234,"end":4351.155,"text":"主管加強宣導"},{"start":4379.769,"end":4401.034,"text":"那個主席你剛才簽的我們有改幾個字就是把那個單位去除統一相關單位不然你現在有的漏掉你指定那三個其他加入有困難所以伸縮要有就是統成那再可以發言喔"},{"start":4402.253,"end":4424.002,"text":"那在這個簽的當中那個附帶決議就照這樣子我們修改的部分但是次長我還是要跟你討論雖然我勉強同意自來水的部分就是說地底下當然也包括海底下那其實你們一直在推海水淡化所以未來這個也是"},{"start":4426.762,"end":4436.715,"text":"也算是海底下的管線現在也都在推所以這一塊 譬如說金門的或是台東的 花蓮的"},{"start":4442.073,"end":4458.644,"text":"這一些都非常有機會 一定會碰到雖然剛剛海洋署說會在12海里之內的機率會比較高因為他比較淺 淺的沒有但是過失跟故意既然是佔50% 50%"},{"start":4461.326,"end":4483.938,"text":"所以雖然今天我勉強同意如此但是也列為我們機關單位要隨時注意因為你到時候你像那個新加坡 馬來西亞他們就是必須要這樣子如果是故意或者是過失不管什麼方式但是就是破壞到那到時候怎麼辦"},{"start":4485.639,"end":4513.02,"text":"所以這個當然我們就是循序漸進先解決這一個部分但是我們也希望就是說方法方式都一直訊息萬變而且是世界的趨勢所以這個你們的行政部門也必須列入在考管的項目內這個我認為有必要以上再次建言 謝謝"},{"start":4600.021,"end":4620.226,"text":"我們先宣讀附帶決議附帶決議基於海上人命安全國際公約SOLS要求船舶應裝置電子海圖顯示及資訊系統以及攜帶航程所需足夠的航海圖與航海刊物"},{"start":4661.872,"end":4690.168,"text":"附帶決議基於海上人命安全國際公約要求船舶應裝置電子海圖顯示及資訊系統以及攜帶其航程所需足夠的航海圖與航海刊物故未避免後續行為人主張為支援海覽及管道相關資訊造成故意及過失要件認定疑慮請內政部於海覽期法通過前將海覽及管道圖資都要公佈並會同"},{"start":4691.604,"end":4712.712,"text":"相關機關加強宣導 讓各界知悉避免觸法 同時亦有利於執法及移送檢調偵辦 原屬人陳廷輝 楊瓊英 邱毅英 賴瑞榮宣讀完畢好 對於附帶決議大家沒有意見嗎有沒有意見沒有 通過來 我們請一併宣讀協商結論宣讀協商結論"},{"start":4720.215,"end":4743.609,"text":"電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案 照行政提案通過天然氣事業法第55條之一 條文修正草案 照行政提案通過自來水法第3條不予通過 維持現行條文增訂第16條之一 不予增訂第97條之一 照行政提案通過通過附帶決議一項 宣讀完畢"},{"start":4745.803,"end":4750.173,"text":"請問各位同仁照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過請問有無異議有沒有異議有沒有異議"},{"start":4757.065,"end":4775.976,"text":"沒有異議通過然後討論事項所列議案均審查完畢三案分別並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論請問討論事項第一案電業法第71條之一條文修正草案需不需交由黨團協商不"},{"start":4783.001,"end":4803.806,"text":"請問討論事項第二案天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正草案需不需要交由黨團學商請問我們現在三法我們只有先三法然後司法還在分分數他們是希望這樣對"},{"start":4807.884,"end":4827.414,"text":"對然後請問討論事項第三案自然水法第三條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正草案需不需要交由黨團協商好謝謝所以我們三個案都不需交由黨團協商那"},{"start":4832.216,"end":4843.996,"text":"沒有 所以我們三法之後我們處理三個啦另外其他的委員會對 司法就是在他們其他委員會所以他們因為現在就是說他們後續他們怎麼那到最後如果他們有一件還是全部都要對對我們先"},{"start":4847.216,"end":4869.049,"text":"對啊 不需要啦現在我們在前面啦我們在前面然後我們院會討論時三案均有本席說明那審裁通過的條文相關法制用語我們就授權主席及議事人員整理那本日所列議程均已處理完畢現在散會謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00940c2ed0c650a814d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c97fcbc83bc95981385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:47:08 - 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蘇長我在這份報告看到來台旅客的現況你們有說到較去年同期成長9%然後另外也公佈114年1到7月實際來台的旅客突破478萬人次然後分別是也有提到像日本還有大陸 美加就是各地區的成長幅度"},{"start":45.035,"end":55.301,"text":"可是我們在國際的觀光競爭中卻是落後的我們來看2023年旅客回流的比較日本已經恢復到疫情前的85%那韓國也恢復到80%泰國恢復了百分之韓國恢復到90%泰國恢復到80%那我們台灣署長您覺得我們恢復到多少個%"},{"start":66.914,"end":82.102,"text":"今年底算應該會在七成還是落後因為這是2023年的數據那台灣在疫情之後只恢復了60%左右那同樣解封跟這些亞洲國家比起來為什麼我們台灣是落後的您認為呢因為是什麼環節沒有跟上是我們的行銷是服務還是我們的品牌還是我們根本沒有方向而且定位也不清楚"},{"start":94.642,"end":123.281,"text":"其實影響觀光的項目真的是蠻是蠻容受大環境的影響像去年我們是有0403就是我們花東的地震今年又有風水災的部分這件事情對我們也是會有影響那像關稅啦匯率啦還有我們整個就是疫情之後呢缺工的問題是也蠻明顯的那您認為要請教就是台灣的觀光定位是什麼"},{"start":125.185,"end":152.547,"text":"我們台灣觀光的定位觀光立國觀光立國我們的定位在哪裡那奧本希舉例像日本的話他們是用地方敘事來做回訪率在日本我們可以看到他們的地方創生還有文化體驗的旅行然後還有他們每個縣市都有明確的故事那在韓國我們也看到他用文化情感作為品牌記憶譬如說他們的K-culture K-food還是他們的K-tourism"},{"start":152.907,"end":173.816,"text":"我們可以看到他們用韓劇他們用韓劇或是用他們的韓團作為觀光的新盈利那泰國呢他們用服務的體驗然後來拉長停留的天數那比如說他們Long Stay非常友善那也願意讓旅客所以也願意停留更久嘛他們也拼CP值而且他們的服務的體系是非常完整的"},{"start":174.096,"end":201.705,"text":"他們政府怎麼留住觀光的就是他們觀光服務的人才他們是有一套職業系統的他們不單只是補助而已署長再來我們看到新加坡他們有國家活動的策略那他們做國際的能見度他們辦理國家級大型的活動他們有都市的品牌經營他們有F1賽事那甚至從踏進機場我們就可以看到他們的機場就是一個特色景點那我們台灣呢請署長回答"},{"start":202.906,"end":228.565,"text":"跟委員報告其實台灣70%到60%都是山脈給覆蓋的所以台灣的自然景觀是非常有特色的那第二個是台灣的文化歷史脈絡我們的文化多元多元性也是很多國際人士來到台灣非常喜歡的書長既然您提到就是我們的文化還有我們的自然景觀當然是非常的多元豐富那您認為國外旅客對於台灣的觀光印象是什麼"},{"start":230.849,"end":244.414,"text":"安全方便但是也有對於自然景觀我們前陣子九月份才剛做完所有出國參展回來之後大家同意的調查報告也特別提到也是這三項"},{"start":245.234,"end":265.311,"text":"對於我們的美食、多元文化跟自然景觀都是印象最深刻的但對於台灣就是覺得安全跟方便安全跟方便那觀光署針對入境的旅客有做一份調查也包括日本的JTB海外旅遊的意識調查還有韓國的HRI文化觀察報告"},{"start":265.951,"end":288.32,"text":"那其中本席也看到全球觀光的網站像是TreeAdvisor Reddit這樣的論壇還有Lonely Planet就是旅遊者的討論資料彙整下來討論我們台灣的觀光他說國際旅客對台灣的印象有三大正面還有三大的不足我們需要來更加的提升那通常有人情味台灣人非常的友善那這是最容易被記住的嘛"},{"start":288.78,"end":317.372,"text":"那同樣也覺得我們的飲食非常多樣然後街頭很有活力像是夜市早餐文化還有便利商店那旅客來到台灣會覺得生活感很強那我們的交通系統也相對的是完善的高鐵台鐵還是捷運的密度非常高那很現實的問題我們也要注意到就是國外旅客實際的反應就是我們的景點記憶不強覺得台灣不錯可是沒有覺得什麼是must see非看不可還有非去不可的地方那再來我們的國外的旅客也有提到"},{"start":318.886,"end":337.735,"text":"換句話說這就是缺乏我們台灣缺乏品牌故事喔文化跟城市的敘事感非常弱我來到了這個城市我來到了台灣可是我們來到台灣的城市可是我不知道到了哪裡通常除了我們講說101還是日月潭非常國際知名的景點之外那其他的城市呢"},{"start":340.04,"end":357.572,"text":"委員說得是其實我也同意委員提的這個意見因為像我自己上任之後也到處去看相關的景點或者是區域的部分我就有發現我們很容易講我有什麼我有什麼但是你有什麼不等於消費者有興趣的什麼"},{"start":358.493,"end":373.36,"text":"那我就發現到最後就是會變沒有記憶點我們發現我們能很多樣性但是最後沒有記憶點這是我們現在的問題那這也是為什麼我們現在要去加強所謂的區域觀光圈的這個部分"},{"start":374.04,"end":396.238,"text":"希望因為現在的旅遊模式還是回到一個區域旅遊的模式那多數人認識台灣大概一定認識台北所以他會留在台北旅遊北北街頭所以我們希望說有機會讓中南部的觀光記憶點要再更明顯一點那本席也在這份報告看到我們就是也就是我們的"},{"start":397.299,"end":420.488,"text":"目前還是數量導向 我們想說要辦活動 要拼補住還有我們在計人次 可是根據世界觀光組織他有做一個調查 那目前全球觀光競爭的指標 他已經從人數轉向回訪率還有停留的天數 還有消費 旅遊消費的結構品質那觀光署有沒有注意到這一點 我們有沒有去調查我們旅客的回訪率"},{"start":421.329,"end":438.168,"text":"是的 有的我們謝鳳姐旅客回訪率大概是五十幾%其中最高的回訪率最高的一定是交通比較方便就是旅程比較近一點的地方我聽說我們港澳大概是一年大概有的會來五次左右的部分"},{"start":438.829,"end":468.381,"text":"所以距离比较近一点我觉得这是因为时间短的关系对对对比较近的关系那这对其他地区所以其他的部分还要再努力那现在整个消费额比较高的比如说日日消费美国是最高的接下来是欧洲第三大市那他们的停留天数大概大约是多久大约是几天欧美大概是在12天到14天然后韩国日本相对大概四五天甚至有时候最近因为距离更近一点有时候会在三天四天大概是这个样子"},{"start":468.601,"end":478.599,"text":"OK 希望觀光署還是可以加強我們全台各縣市都去盤點凸顯我們各縣市的觀光的它的特色然後同時也把這些特色介紹給國際的觀光旅客我們會努力 謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"164884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00c87a9b5477ef9bbe55b9b7d9df2795fe7858943a6a9958c9ef5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:04:07 - 12:15:17","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T12:04:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T12:15:17+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.29659375,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.55346875,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.98784375,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.716593750000001,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.95471875,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.931593750000005,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.095968750000004,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.86721875,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.20034375,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.04346875,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.27971875,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.49909375,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.477843750000005,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.43471875,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.24034375000001,"end":67.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.27409375,"end":66.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.78409375000001,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.68659375,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.21784375,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.79534375,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.29221875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.29846875000001,"end":124.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.53596875,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.82909375,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.43221875,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.19159375,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.25721875000002,"end":258.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.12971875,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.21721875000003,"end":266.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.08846875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.45034375,"end":286.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.02409375,"end":287.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.32784375,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.66534375000003,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.96909375,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.41971875,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.23784375,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.90409375,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.65346875,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.33221875000004,"end":357.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.09284375000004,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.05034375,"end":363.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.88971875000004,"end":365.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.83034375,"end":366.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.18034375,"end":367.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.83846875,"end":368.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.24346875000003,"end":368.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份況寬可是我們的目的其實是對於合法需要自用的讓他可以進來讓他能夠在規制底下那今天也很多的委員的垂詢裡面對於我們如何去做後續的一些管制確實他裡面的那我們一直的認為如果要對非洲豬瘟能夠去確實能夠掌握"},{"start":204.125,"end":232.068,"text":"那重量的部分當然是不是最重要其實內容的品項那內容品項目前在輸入的品項裡面其實沒有發現特定的異常跟不符合規定的地方那一定是在管制之內所以當初在109年之後聽到很多意見其實暫緩就沒有做每日的一些規定跟總金額的規定那剛剛也有委員有提到我們其實在看到勾基的過程中的確有非常"},{"start":232.808,"end":257.913,"text":"所謂的偏差的數據的一些業者那我們在今年9月1號跟9月18號其實在台中中區我們就直接去看那一個柱子也進行了裁罰所以我們早在這一次的事件之前呢我們就關注到這個議題那我們會持續跟關務署這邊做協調也聽取各位委員及所有大眾的意見個案的部分 個案的集合的問題"},{"start":259.193,"end":279.041,"text":"那我剛剛聽了署長的說明我其實看法跟署長是滿一致的我覺得金額跟重量基本上並不是重點就在這一次我們如何防止非洲豬瘟"},{"start":280.675,"end":298.095,"text":"進入的這個政策目標上並不是重點重點是在相次啦 對不對對 的確是在 比如說肉品的輸入我們就不允許它是在肉品的在個人自用的那非疫區的也絕對是不能夠進來的"},{"start":299.136,"end":314.092,"text":"相對的其他一方面的食品自己使用而且在輸入許可的範圍內那當然是以尊重個人使用我們會許可他免驗因為我們這邊免驗會跟關務署這邊的在勾結之後的確就會"},{"start":315.513,"end":334.632,"text":"省卻了民眾需要被查查的部分那這部分其實優先的順序其實在於變民為最重要的優先但是對於用這個途徑去做特別的可能是帶進來做所謂的商業上面使用那我們因為積極的查查之下 裁罰"},{"start":335.493,"end":362.739,"text":"進一步呢 我們會把相關訊息跟關務署這邊做很好的勾結 對 那以上說明好 謝謝署長 署長請回 說得非常的詳細就是應該還是以品項的控管才是重點主席我請一下房間署杜署長房間署"},{"start":371.698,"end":385.331,"text":"我們目前得到的資訊是我們因為有非洲助溫的案例所以目前被取消了非預期國家的地位假如說未來"},{"start":388.694,"end":412.322,"text":"10月25日已經呈報了那假如未來三個月內沒有新的疫情就會恢復非預期的國家那這個是很重要的一件事情所以我想要利用這個機會請教一下署長可不可以詳細說明一下你們目前對於非洲豬瘟清零的進度跟未來的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":414.022,"end":434.032,"text":"跟委員來做報告你把政策講得清楚一點好的 我們現在的處理上大概就是在第一個 暗場暗場的一個控管上暗場對 因為現在所有的證據都指向這裡因為即便到現在針對暗場的周邊的檢測那今天出來又有兩個"},{"start":435.083,"end":455.396,"text":"陽性那就是針對這個暗場所以這個暗場的控管是非常非常重要那第二個就是全國的防疫工作那全國防疫工作到目前為止已經進行第二輪那一定要落實他的防疫的作為所以這個部分也有做高強度的控管所以我們大概針對5441場10%的這個高危險區的這個部分"},{"start":461.58,"end":475.108,"text":"也加強的清潔跟清消的工作跟檢測的工作所以把全國的案場大家都動起來那第三個就是在移動的車輛方面比如說我們的化製車飼料車載租的車"},{"start":477.509,"end":497.318,"text":"那這些車會移動所以對他們的控管是非常非常的重要的所以這部分不管是傾銷或環境的PCR也相對困難啦因為它是移動的嘛但我們一定要做到所以現在目前已經進行到第二輪那到目前的傾銷所有案場的抽驗PCR也是零"},{"start":498.979,"end":524.586,"text":"那第三個就是針對我們屠宰場跟肉品市場的部分那這個的部分也是一樣所有的工作包括你現在因為有些是豬停停宰停停屠宰但羊跟牛有繼續進行所以他的傾銷跟檢測監測的作為就非常的重要所以這個部分也在做進行對那所以我們用嚴密的"},{"start":525.586,"end":544.868,"text":"控管做防疫高強度的防疫的一個作為就是希望能夠達到清理那跟委員報告到目前我們所有的檢測還是零除了暗場以外其他的還是零但是我們沒有辦法掉以輕心所以我們還是持續用高強度在做防疫的作為"},{"start":546.077,"end":560.007,"text":"政策目標要落實還是必須要靠很嚴密的整個細節都要很注意像我們在COVID-19的疫情期間衛福部的相關作為是做得很好"},{"start":561.108,"end":575.718,"text":"陳政委也有跟我們在應變中心來指導所以我們也吸取過去做COVID-19的經驗然後導入到我們這一次的防疫的一個作為所以整體上就更加的精進也更加的嚴密"},{"start":576.519,"end":603.218,"text":"因為這件事情對國家的經濟的風險太大了所以一定要很小心那我最後提醒一下就是因為台中有爆發非洲豬瘟的疫情就是這個案場全國就禁用廚餘台中市政府有一些露天的堆置廚餘然後媒體報導我不知道是不是真的就是媒體報導說"},{"start":606.44,"end":633.618,"text":"就是暫時廚餘的地方有野豬出沒那這件事情會有什麼影響那要怎麼因應報告委員台中市政府我的時間到了所以你簡要說明就好針對廚餘的部分以及加強要求台中市政府做嚴密的處理這個衛福部已經在做處理那第二個針對這個他們的這個廚藝場的附近有一些野豬的活動的部分那昨天我們的這個"},{"start":635.499,"end":662.35,"text":"林務署也已經同行要求他們設圍籬來阻絕不要讓這些野豬能夠進入到我們的廚宇或其他的一個地區對 我們不要防堵了家戶養豬結果野豬出問題這個也是一個很大的麻煩啦對 加強控管好啦 辛苦啦 謝謝署長 謝謝主席"},{"start":663.173,"end":666.443,"text":"好謝謝楊耀委員發言那接下來請葉元之委員發言"}]}},{"id":"164905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00aba476974b8a7f9ad0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dc9b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:26:54 - 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麻煩請一下畜牧師來 畜牧師檢任濟政市長好市長好喔我是濟政"},{"start":31.775,"end":46.517,"text":"那個我想這次這個非洲豬瘟的事件那個目前豬隻近載近運的問題一直到11月6號我想這幾天都人心惶惶了我好多這個肉傷的朋友都非常的緊張那當然"},{"start":47.578,"end":63.646,"text":"消費者也相當的緊張有很多的擔心那擔心這個價格的飆漲或者是之後的崩盤都是大家非常關心的問題那我想要先請教一下就是說"},{"start":66.247,"end":94.996,"text":"就说目前啊农业部是有不断的强调说猪肉的供给是无虞的那但是我想我们先来谈一下这个冷冻猪肉价格的问题你所了解的目前这段时间的市场波动价格波动的状况是怎么样冷冻猪肉的部分这个部分在这段期间我们有跟冷冻肉品工会做一些调度在"},{"start":97.185,"end":119.42,"text":"在量的供應跟價格的波動上都算穩定都算穩定但是根據新聞報導目前你所謂的穩定因為目前有一公斤飆漲到200元的狀況他豬肉的本來他是不同部位的價格他本來就會不同"},{"start":120.282,"end":144.445,"text":"所以我们在同一个部位肉的前后的变动他都在一个1%2%左右所以不是很大的变动这天出来这个新闻算是假讯息吗没有就我们的了解是没有变动冷冻猪肉没有变动价格价格都没有波动对"},{"start":146.212,"end":166.702,"text":"那所以對所以我們那一則我們出現的那個那一則新聞的報導是他是錯誤的我是巨產試驗所那就這個肉品加工就是現在"},{"start":171.027,"end":184.875,"text":"口味會不會下是不一定啦但是就肉的這個部位的價格來看的話像我們吃的這個冷凍的這個算是三層肉跟冷凍的這個類似是"},{"start":192.033,"end":212.416,"text":"嘴邊肉嗎對嘴邊肉那個一公斤要五百多塊所以那個是正常的價格那你現在在冷凍的這個排骨排骨就是這個排骨這個起碼要兩百是正常的你們要強調是每個部位都維持在一個穩定的價格"},{"start":214.841,"end":220.65,"text":"好那所以你們也沒有針對這個10月27號這篇報導有什麼樣的說明跟解釋"},{"start":226.812,"end":248.612,"text":"是他們斷章取義本來一公斤120元的漲到200元突破200元所以他們沒有講清楚是哪個部位漲的應該是這樣好那如果他們說的120元破200元那大概這幾天120元的那個部位是指什麼"},{"start":249.65,"end":276.355,"text":"那是指全豬就是後腿這邊的肉就是專門做貢丸的部分這個肉120到130所以那個部位大部分大概是落在這裡對好所以假如因為針對我不是豬肉專家我是負責吃而已但是呢但是這個部分因為造成很多這個"},{"start":277.995,"end":299.531,"text":"消費者的擔心所以我覺得有有什麼樣的新聞你們應該也要很關注那有必要說明的時候也應該要也應該要發個新聞稿澄清一下不是嗎報告委員對這個豬肉的價格這個部分事實上我們都有在"},{"start":300.67,"end":317.675,"text":"所以冷冻的部分目前是没有问题所以我们也不需要再协调协调工会啦或者是我们是每天都有在跟他们保持协调那因为有这则新闻我要麻烦你们也要处理一下嘛好"},{"start":321.758,"end":348.706,"text":"那再来就是有关于这个进载禁运期间还有之后的问题当然在进载禁运的期间猪肉可能飙涨那我们很多的这个地方首长啦民代啦也都会担心所以所以像我们台东当然也也一样宣布这个进载禁运那当然在进载禁运之后这个因为"},{"start":351.109,"end":368.749,"text":"我們在這段期間齁其實有個開銷是固定的啦就是這個譬如說飼料啦人工啦他就是豬隻還是會不斷的吃然後他會長大嘛那長大你不屠宰他他就要"},{"start":369.749,"end":398.722,"text":"他又会继续吃那这饲料也是一个开销所以我觉得这些肉商这些养出的就是说他们杀也赔不杀也赔好所以这个部分当然在这个价钱的控管方面我不晓得就是说你们在这个部分是不是已经有比较明确的处置方式了"},{"start":400.259,"end":428.596,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是 有沒有到超前部署吧有有 這個部分對於這一些一些補助的措施啦這一些都有在研議啦 那即將會提出來那另外對於再來之後這一段期間禁運禁載期間的租資他日後開市以後他的供應我們也會做一些"},{"start":430.138,"end":439.874,"text":"調節跟調配那個你們可以大概提一下大概是哪幾個方向哪些哪些方式來協助穩定這個價格"},{"start":444.68,"end":471.3,"text":"就是說它開始以後因為我們近載經營了15天所以會有大概有將近30萬隻的豬隻那這個部分我們因為如果你同一天上市的話那它的價格就容易產生大的波動所以這個部分我們在調配上面會去做處理讓它不要同時去上市"},{"start":471.42,"end":482.818,"text":"所以你們只有在做這個租資的這個調配跟控管而已嗎其他的沒有需要再跟其他公會協調或者是政府的一些補貼"},{"start":485.871,"end":514.13,"text":"成銷人拍賣這個部分都還是很好 那署長委員我特別跟您報告那我們同步都有考慮到對這些的損失受影響的一個補貼所以這個一級生產因為我們畢竟即便是協調這些工會進來協助那大家也是要釋放力多不然誰願意做您剛才關注的包括不管我們是養豬的農民還是我們的批發市場包括肉品市場還有我們的成銷人包括屠宰場"},{"start":514.89,"end":529.324,"text":"那以及是我們這個EDP次的母豬場那這些的部分都有研擬這個補助跟相關的一個措施那另外也針對廚餘的養豬場用這個飼料的差價"},{"start":532.307,"end":554.595,"text":"以及有油脂的一個補助這邊都有 都已經嚴臨但現在就等整個院裡面訂案以後就可以適當實際公布就是訂案數字的部分啦你這樣講就比較清楚一點好 謝謝好 那你們都請回座那我們接下來就是請那個衛福部長來 請時部長委員好"},{"start":559.561,"end":582.158,"text":"5月份本期有在這裡質詢有關於還有安排到這個蘭嶼考察有關於這個蘭嶼醫院興建的部分那當時前部長邱部長已經有允諾10月份會提報這個公建計畫所以我大概目前今天我想大概追一下進度了解一下目前進度狀況如何"},{"start":582.691,"end":611.734,"text":"好 跟委員報我們規劃未來這個蘭嶼醫院跟蘭嶼衛生所因為它很鄰近我們會把它整併起來一起來運作讓這個人力資源 醫療資源可以集中運用那目前已經提報了一個計畫到行政院10月28號已經送了那規劃是地上三層的建物那未來會提供住院的床宿還有這個包含這個透析床還有復健"},{"start":612.655,"end":635.005,"text":"还有这个内外科的服务这样所以目前那个总经费多少公企大概需要几年差不多是6亿7千万只有6亿7千万吗这做建物以后每年的营运都还可能需要补贴因为那天到蓝宇的时候我印象中我有看到大概一个14亿的数字"},{"start":640.398,"end":662.227,"text":"那個可能是本來是這樣做要把那個蘭嶼衛生所先移植然後整個打掉之後然後再蓋所以是包含衛生所的那個費用對那個還要移植那我們現在是規劃這樣會很久所以我們把它分一期二期工程來蓋所以先在衛生所旁邊的空地先蓋起來"},{"start":663.127,"end":674.265,"text":"就不要等那個衛生所移植之後再打這樣時間會拖太長所以我們現在新鮮計畫到底是已經送到哪裡了"},{"start":674.884,"end":692.756,"text":"在行政院我們28號送出OK已經到行政院了好那這個部分我想其實我們這個消息出來也受到就是說在地有一些部分蘭嶼鄉民的質疑因為可能"},{"start":693.937,"end":722.092,"text":"過去他們會有一些被欺騙不好的經驗所以認為說我們是不是又在畫大餅那我想這個部分當然他們也有比較具體的提出說當然蓋醫院我們都了解不是難事雖然在蘭嶼確實是比較困難一點整個成本都很高還有發包的問題但接下來後續的這些醫護人員的進駐我想也期待說可以同步"},{"start":723.532,"end":740.247,"text":"讓大家了解我們預先的規劃的做法是什麼部長可不可以用一點點時間稍微講一下因為我們現在規劃大概期程上會在差不多120年或121年左右會開幕營運"},{"start":742.509,"end":763.901,"text":"那這段期間我們也會有人力的這個規劃包含公費生會陸陸續續會出來那我們就有公費生可以去協助另外也會結合當地的其他醫療資源所以有鎖定哪幾家醫院馬街體系來做後送的資源等等那搭配健保的IDS計畫也會有"},{"start":765.682,"end":788.659,"text":"跟当地的卫生所就是有公费生那加上我们也会分配给这个蓝宇医院这样好所以我们就是说要告诉大家的是说除了医院硬体的这个新建之外同时在我们推动这个蓝宇医院新建的同时呢其实卫福部也早就同步规划了整个"},{"start":789.119,"end":804.732,"text":"希望爭取這一家醫院的有別於其他的醫院不是以自負盈虧的方式來進行那麼是以公醫的使命來興建這一家醫院那麼人力上都是以公職人員就是正職的人員來編列這個員額這樣"},{"start":807.093,"end":821.041,"text":"好謝謝部長我想這個是一個很重要的概念那我也謝謝部長跟衛福部全體同仁對於我們這個離島的這個醫療的關心跟投注好感謝你們謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00bcf564ed9166ce0b8220506846d94b4906dd83a37e4b4549ddd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:32:24 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一起各位先進有請這個金皇恩的彭主委 央行的朱副總裁我們請彭主委 朱副總裁兩位長官委員長兩位長官好 首先先請教一下朱副總裁我們看到在川普"},{"start":22.993,"end":41.963,"text":"上任之後你會發現到他很care是美國的股票市場他很care的是加密貨幣這個可以講叫新風作亂也好啦或者是推波助瀾也好啦加密貨幣禮創新高黃金禮創新高我就請問央行"},{"start":43.772,"end":51.557,"text":"你們的外匯存底的配置有沒有增加只有加密貨幣增加黃金有沒有央行的外匯資產一向是注重流動性安全性為原則我們沒有加密資產"},{"start":62.023,"end":64.506,"text":"沒有買加密貨幣沒有買黃金黃金是以前早期買最近有沒有買最近沒有最近一兩個月因為已經在高檔我們都沒買啦所以如果委員有機會到文言再看一下盤點一下完全跟十年前那個看不出來啊"},{"start":81.825,"end":87.071,"text":"一塊塊金塊怎麼看得到 都沒有看到所以我們的歪純底最多還是純有美債是不是應該是純有美顏計價的資產對 美顏計價的資產有八成以上這個我現在不是"},{"start":102.828,"end":110.09,"text":"很確定 因為隨時在動態調整最少有七成所以如果說你要比較經驗不不不 在這裡就要老實回答因為這是公共領域啊而且這個老闆很關心我們的歐盟存底啊你到底放了哪些這個不是什麼機密啊過去都講過啊 我們的美元計價的八成然後日元計價多少 歐盟計價多少這個都有啊 這是公開的資料"},{"start":131.134,"end":148.086,"text":"正如委員剛才講現在國際金融市場動盪很大我們隨時在調整所以我現在真的也不知道沒有回答我啊我回去問一下我們外匯局我要現在回答啦是不是美元計價有沒有八成啦這只是我們總裁回答你的數字嗎總裁講的是八成我現在要你回答數字啊不是我真的因為"},{"start":155.171,"end":174.082,"text":"因為我本身並沒有夜館到這個部分所以我沒辦法 對是 對不起所以差不多八成了喔不是喔 我不知道 我不知道謝謝 謝謝芝佳你不能一問三不知喔 不可以啊那你今天來幹什麼你要回答 要say something"},{"start":174.542,"end":176.463,"text":"不是 我今天講的是講穩定幣這部分我沒想到您是要問外匯的外匯存 當然要來就是外匯存底很重要好 那你另外總是可以回答了嘛美國降息一碼12月未知台幣是不是會再升值12月降息怎樣"},{"start":194.5,"end":212.839,"text":"你們要看我的Power Point美國不是已經降息一碼嗎是 剛宣布的啊那12月不知道啦有人預估說12月還要降息一碼啦那央行會不會跟著從美國降息台幣到生子啦"},{"start":213.82,"end":216.802,"text":"因為美國是一個大國你回答我的問題台北會不會生死啦我講我的邏輯啦不要講邏輯我要講答案像您講的跟各國之間的利差會改變所以台北極可能生死我們台灣也有自己的考量譬如說我們"},{"start":236.992,"end":250.697,"text":"有幾個央行政策的目標不是只有利差對比如說外匯市場影響還有我們的通貨膨脹經濟成長率等等不能這樣子啦你都不能來這裡就給我都說得是怎麼樣是上一次回答了讓央行總裁不滿你被罵是不是不是利率政策是理事會決定不是利率啦這是匯率啦問你匯率"},{"start":261.76,"end":272.069,"text":"匯率 你可以看一下我的題目嗎不是 匯率的話 坦白說啦利差只是其中的一個因素現在的國際金融市場 我問你了我問你了 你怎麼說你講的這麼多 我現在講讓我這麼多事 你回答我台幣是不是可能再升值啦就這樣子啦 回答我 我這樣講如果我們的經濟前景很好 外匯市場"},{"start":289.543,"end":300.267,"text":"這個部分怎麼反應因為外資會進來看好我們嘛所以外資若進來他對我們有信心你給我回答是不是會升值啦就外資的行為來講他資金進來是升可是他若不進來跟我們對你今天跟以前不一樣耶以前敢講話今天不敢講話已經奇怪不知道今天來幹什麼都是這樣子不可以這樣子"},{"start":318.254,"end":331.531,"text":"來 我們兩位長官如果發行穩定幣是你們誰管 金管會管還是央行管報告委員 因為這是因為它定在我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面等一下等一下 總裁先不要走"},{"start":332.552,"end":348.357,"text":"副總裁 你先不要走 還沒叫你走欸還沒叫你走因為您好像希望知道一些相關的信息我必須請我你不要讓我有時間 來來來來 彭主委來是 剛剛跟委員說明就因為這本法裡面的來 趕快要好 有什麼你要case給他資料 趕快給"},{"start":350.302,"end":362.161,"text":"因為這部法裡面第二條明定主管機關是金管會但是我們在穩定幣專章裡面有提到因為這會試射到貨幣跟外匯所以這部分我們是跟央行共管"},{"start":363.29,"end":380.3,"text":"那請問央行的支付總裁穩定幣是不是貨幣是不是貨幣穩定幣是支付的工具所以有支付功能這可以視為視為貨幣你總裁講的不一樣喔 講不講不是貨幣喔不是總裁講貨幣不是貨幣喔你回去再叫我妹喔我不要害你喔"},{"start":390.746,"end":407.161,"text":"蛤 穩定幣是代幣啦代幣啦 你不是那個玩那個Pachinko啊 對不對那個代幣 穩定幣是其中之一 對吧 彭總裁 對吧來 那個 彭 彭書偉 對吧報告 報告委員 他是一種私部門發行的數位貨幣蛤"},{"start":408.602,"end":425.031,"text":"私部門發行的數位貨幣 私部門所以任何公司都可以發可是它要符合我們現在的虛擬資產管理法的這個 問你是不是貨幣啦是不是貨幣它如果是以法幣1比1的掛鉤它就是屬於私人部門發行的數位貨幣"},{"start":426.312,"end":438.492,"text":"私人發行的數位貨幣可是更精準的應該它是代幣的對吧它應該是一種代幣化的技術所發行的代幣化的技術發行的穩定幣是什麼代幣對吧"},{"start":439.781,"end":461.886,"text":"我跟委員報告一下大幣其中之一就是如果說根據我們那個草案我們也參考MICA的規定就是它的制定的辦法我們先定義虛擬資產那我們在裡面定義是說它以跟價值連結的一種虛擬資產所以基本上穩定幣所以它是資產它是虛擬資產的一種在我們的法律裡面定義是一種"},{"start":462.746,"end":489.735,"text":"這個很重要喔這個因為對公子人員包括你啊大官啊都要申報財產喔如果有比特幣的話都要申報喔如果你這樣講的話過去是不用申報的喔因為 央行不承認是貨幣喔央行不承認是資產喔所以今天央行的態度有改變喔來 好央行的三位長官請離開喔因為我時間有限請教彭主委喔玉山青最近病了三傷受"},{"start":491.233,"end":511.878,"text":"這個事情啊到現在為止沒有發布重訊參與競爭的有一個中信金10月23號還發行發重訊為什麼玉山金可以這麼老大不發重訊而且沒有經過董事會通過有沒有經過董事會通過要不要查一下誰可以回答"},{"start":513.378,"end":530.385,"text":"這個事情外面很關心這個題目喔我知道這個有關這個上市櫃公司該不該發重訊那是在因為是上市櫃公司跟證交所之間訂有一個契約他有一個明定根據交易所的規定他有如列的51項該做重訊的請問你這是重訊"},{"start":537.108,"end":564.667,"text":"我先跟委員說明一下這個是交易所跟上市會公司之間的約定他們會上面爐列了這麼多由上市會公司進行判斷但交易所如果認為有必要的時候可以請他做說明我想剛剛委員有提到其中有一家公司因為他開了董事會他就發了重訊按照他那個標準規範重訊沒有搶到 搶情搶到他就發布重訊結果玉山金搶到了他還沒有發布重訊這奇怪"},{"start":566.963,"end":582.816,"text":"這件事情跟委員報告就是這件事情到底什麼貓膩啊我們已經像這個是他跟交易所之間我們知道這個事情我們就已經責成交易所趕快去了解到交易所你們硬要舉證據舉的路人甲當然不會是路人甲你們路人甲你們的角色扮演"},{"start":585.059,"end":606.294,"text":"這個委員剛剛講到角色扮演正是這個因為在整個過程當中包括他們整個去做這個雙方協商的過程真正的話他們未來如果按照他們要做完董事會以後做成正式的決議才會送到今晚會來我們也要看到他正式的理解已經股票市場都反映了玉山金股票重挫三商的股票暴漲股市都反映了結塊門都沒報告"},{"start":615.281,"end":636.831,"text":"昨天我們在記者會也講清楚我們已經請交易所按照他們的規定去聊交易所也請他們三家公司這個算不算重訓這是是不是重訓是交易所跟他們之間的認定我們一起請交易所我們會請交易所查明以後對外說明這個也把政企局長張局長看扁了他沒事可以做"},{"start":638.192,"end":655.709,"text":"也不是 因為這是 本來就是一個在教育世界發中訓的過程我反而依據他的規定來做的小問題 這很重要 小問題來來來碩花部啊 普發現金一萬塊說13歲以上不可以由父母帶領他的理由說已經可以理財自主"},{"start":657.014,"end":685.956,"text":"金管會同意嗎他可以理財自足嗎他不會被騙嗎有關普發現金這是由財政部來主政金管會負責是ATM的部分我想這部分比如說至於說未成年人的他的一些權利義務就回歸到民法的概念比如說他其實在未成年人如果他也可以按照我們現行符合民法規定他也可以去開戶我想這部分金管會呢大概是沒有啦這個我要強調了財政部也應該發信會搞現金了我很快把它結束"},{"start":686.977,"end":698.949,"text":"被詐欺的人口18歲到23歲最多每10萬人627人所以年紀越小越容易被詐欺結果現在樹 花布等於侵入到你的地盤"},{"start":700.694,"end":714.184,"text":"明確的指出來13歲已經有金融自主的權利理財自主這個都是你們的管區欸這個銀行局你們要講話欸這個東西它都已經殺到你地盤結果你都點點其實沒什麼地盤的問題我們各自有分工啦我想財政部也做出了新聞稿說明我想我們在這部分我們就針對我們該比如說法律怎麼規定銀行怎麼做我們就怎麼做"},{"start":730.014,"end":735.176,"text":"沒有 你贊成13歲以上就不要父母陪嗎我個人是強烈反對啦這個不是金管會能夠回答的問題啦我是一個金管會主委 我不會去你要去回答啊 因為你講說13歲13歲畢竟未成年才國一他能夠自己理財 他容易受騙啦不是 主要是根據民法上面對於未成年人有他的一些能力行為的規範啦好 謝謝 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":104,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時32分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請金管會彭主委、央行的朱副總裁，請兩位長官。"],["主席：我們請彭主委、朱副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。首先先請教一下朱副總裁，川普上任之後，我們發現到他很care的是美國股票市場，他很care的是加密貨幣，可以講興風作浪也好，或者是推波助瀾也好，加密貨幣屢創新高、黃金屢創新高，我請問央行，你們的外匯存底的配置有沒有增加持有加密貨幣或黃金？有沒有？"],["朱副總裁美麗：央行的外匯資產一向是注重流動性、安全性為原則，所以我們沒有加密資產。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有買加密貨幣？"],["朱副總裁美麗：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有買黃金？"],["朱副總裁美麗：黃金是以前早期買的。"],["賴委員士葆：最近有沒有買？最近一、兩個月？"],["朱副總裁美麗：最近沒有，因為已經在高檔，我們都沒買，所以如果委員有機會到文園金庫，再看一下、盤點一下，完全跟10年前一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：那個看不出來，一塊、一塊的金塊怎麼看得出來？都沒有看到。所以我們的外匯存底，最多還是存有美債，是不是？"],["朱副總裁美麗：應該是存有美元計價……"],["賴委員士葆：計價的資產？"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，美元計價的資產。"],["賴委員士葆：有八成以上？"],["朱副總裁美麗：這個我現在不是很確定，因為隨時在動態調整中。"],["賴委員士葆：最少要七成？"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，如果說你要比較精確的數字……"],["賴委員士葆：不、不、不，在這裡就要老實回答，因為這是公共領域，而且老百姓很關心我們的外匯存底到底放了哪些，這個不是什麼機密，過去都講過啊，美元計價八成，然後日圓計價多少，歐美計價多少，這個都有啊，這是公開的資料。"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，正如委員剛才所講現在國際金融市場動盪很大，我們隨時在調整，所以我現在真的也不知道金額有多少。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有回答我啊。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我回去問一下我們外匯局。"],["賴委員士葆：要現在回答我，美元計價有沒有八成？這樣比較快一點。"],["朱副總裁美麗：這是我們總裁回答你的數字嗎？總裁講的是八成？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我現在要你回答數字。"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，我真的……因為我本身並沒有業管到這個部分，所以我沒辦法。"],["賴委員士葆：你不知道？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是，對不起。"],["賴委員士葆：所以差不多八成？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，我不知道，謝謝指教。"],["賴委員士葆：你不能一問三不知，不可以啊，那你今天來幹什麼？你要回答，要say something。"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，我今天講的是針對穩定幣這部分，我沒想到您是要問外匯存底的數字。"],["賴委員士葆：當然要，外匯存底很重要。好，你另外一種總是可以回答了嘛，美國降息一碼，12月還未知，臺幣是不是會再升值？"],["朱副總裁美麗：12月降息怎樣？"],["賴委員士葆：你沒看我的PowerPoint，美國不是已經降息1碼嗎？剛宣布了嘛，12月不知道，有人預估說12月還要降息1碼，央行會不會跟著？美國降息，臺幣當然升值啦，是不是？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是這樣啦，因為美國是一個大國，他的降息……"],["賴委員士葆：不、不、不，你回答我問題，臺幣會不會升值啦？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我講我的邏輯……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講邏輯，講答案。"],["朱副總裁美麗：美國降息，像您講的，跟各國之間的利差會改變。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊，所以臺幣極可能升值，這樣對吧？"],["朱副總裁美麗：沒有，我們臺灣也有自己的考量，譬如說我們有幾個央行設定的目標……"],["賴委員士葆：所以我們要干預囉？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是只有利差，譬如說外匯市場影響，還有我們的通貨膨脹……"],["賴委員士葆：你要回答我問題啦。"],["朱副總裁美麗：經濟成長率等等……"],["賴委員士葆：不能這樣子啦，你不能來這裡就假裝「黑龍遶桌」，是怎麼樣，是上一次回答讓人家講不滿意，被罵了是不是？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，利率政策是理事會決定。"],["賴委員士葆：不是利率，這是匯率啦，問你匯率，你可以看一下我的題目啊。"],["朱副總裁美麗：匯率的話，坦白說，利差只是其中的一個因素，現在的國際金融市場……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你啦，你講了這麼多。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我現在講……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答我，臺幣是不是可能再升值？就這樣子啦，回答我。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我這樣講，如果我們的經濟前景很好，外匯市場這個部分怎麼反應，因為外資會進來看好我們嘛，所以外資若進來，它對我們有信心，這個是由市場決定的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以會升值？我就問你，是不是會升值啦？"],["朱副總裁美麗：就外資的行為來講……"],["賴委員士葆：會嘛，當然會升值。"],["朱副總裁美麗：它資金進來是升，可是它若不進來，跟我們對經濟的期待不一定喔。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天跟以前不一樣欸，以前敢講話，今天不敢講話欸，真奇怪，不知道今天來幹什麼，都是這樣子「黑龍繞桌」，不可以這樣子。","兩位長官，如果發行穩定幣，是誰管，金管會管還是央行管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，因為這訂在我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：等一下、等一下，朱副總裁先不要走，還沒有叫你走。"],["朱副總裁美麗：因為您好像希望知道一些相關的訊息，我必須請幕僚……"],["賴委員士葆：不要浪費我時間，彭主委來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，剛剛跟委員說明……"],["賴委員士葆：來，央行人員有什麼case資料給你們副總，趕快給。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這部法第二條明定主管機關是金管會，但是我們在穩定幣專章裡面有提到，因為這事涉貨幣跟外匯，所以這部分我們是跟央行共管。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請問央行的朱副總裁，穩定幣是不是貨幣？"],["朱副總裁美麗：穩定幣是……"],["賴委員士葆：是貨幣嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：它也是支付的工具，有支付功能，這可以視為……"],["賴委員士葆：視為貨幣？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是。"],["賴委員士葆：跟總裁講的不一樣喔，總裁講不是貨幣，總裁講加密貨幣不是貨幣，你回去又要被罵喔，我不要害你。穩定幣是代幣啦！代幣啦！不是像玩柏青哥的那種代幣，穩定幣是其中之一，對吧？彭主委，對吧？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：報告委員，它是一種私部門發行的數位貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：私部門發行的數位貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：私部門，所以任何公司都可以發？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：可是他要符合我們現在虛擬資產管理法的穩定幣專案規範。"],["賴委員士葆：要問你是不是貨幣啦，是不是貨幣？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：如果是以法幣1比1的掛鉤，它就是屬於私人部門發行的數位貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：私人發行的數位貨幣？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：對。"],["賴委員士葆：可是更精準的，它應該是代幣，對吧？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：應該是一種代幣化的技術所發行的貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：代幣啦，主委，你說一下穩定幣是什麼，代幣對吧？代幣的其中之一？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告一下，如果說根據我們的草案，我們也參考MiCA的制定辦法先定義虛擬資產，我們定義它是以跟價值連結的一種虛擬資產，所以基本上穩定幣……"],["賴委員士葆：所以它是資產？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是虛擬資產的一種，在我們法律的定義是一種。"],["賴委員士葆：這個很重要，對公職人員來講，包括你，大官都要申報財產，如果有比特幣的話，都要申報，如果你這樣講的話，過去是不用申報的，因為央行不承認它是貨幣、央行不承認它是資產，所以今天央行的態度又改變了。央行的三位長官請離開，因為我時間有限。","請教彭主委，玉山金最近併了三商壽，這個事情到現在為止沒有發布重訊，參與競爭的中信金在10月23日有發重訊，為什麼玉山金可以這麼老大不發重訊，而且沒有經過董事會通過？他有沒有經過董事會通過，要不要查一下？誰可以回答？外面很關心這件事情喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我知道。有關上市櫃公司該不該發重訊，上市櫃公司和證交所之間訂有契約，其中有明定，根據交易所的規定，臚列有51項該發重訊的，要由上市櫃公司來判斷……"],["賴委員士葆：請問這是不是重訊？請問你，這是不是重訊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我先跟委員說明一下，這個是交易所和上市櫃公司之間的約定，他們會上面臚列這麼多，由上市櫃公司自行判斷，但交易所認為有必要的時候，可以請他做說明；剛剛委員有提到，其中一家公司因為開了董事會，他就發了重訊，按照交易所的規範……"],["賴委員士葆：中信金沒有搶到親就發布重訊，結果玉山金搶到了還沒有發布重訊，這很奇怪耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，這件事情我們已經……"],["賴委員士葆：這到底有什麼貓膩？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是他跟交易所之間的約定，我們知道這個事情，就已經責成交易所趕快去了解，我知道交易所……"],["賴委員士葆：只有交易所，那銀行局、證期局都是路人甲？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不會是路人甲，但是我們在……"],["賴委員士葆：你們是路人甲，你們都角色扮演耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛剛講到角色扮演，正是這個，因為在整個過程當中，包括他們去做雙方協商的整個過程，如果按照規定的話，他們要開完董事會以後，做成正式的決議，才會送到金管會來，我們要看到他的正式文件……"],["賴委員士葆：股票市場都已經反映了，玉山金股票重挫，三商的股票暴漲，股市都反映了，結果連你們都沒有報告，董事會也還沒有通過。"],["彭主任委員金隆：昨天我們在記者會也講得很清楚，我們已經請交易所按照他們的規定去了解，交易所也請他們三家公司做澄清……"],["賴委員士葆：我就確定一點，這個算不算重訊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是不是重訊是交易所和他們之間的認定，我們會請交易所查明以後對外說明。"],["賴委員士葆：這個也把證期局張局長看扁了，等於他沒事可以做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是，因為這本來就是一個在交易市場發重訊的過程，本來就是依據規定來做的。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，但是很重要的小問題。有關普發現金一萬塊，數發部說13歲以上不可以由父母代領，他的理由是他已經可以理財自主。金管會同意嗎？他可以理財自主嗎？他不會被騙嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關普發現金，這是由財政部來主政，金管會負責的是ATM的部分。至於未成年人的權利義務，就回歸到民法的概念，如果符合現行民法的規定，其實未成年也可以去開戶，這個部分，金管會大概只針對……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！這個我要強調的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：而且財政部應該也發新聞稿澄清了。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我時間到了，主席站起來了，我很快把它結束。","被詐欺的人口18歲到23歲最多，每10萬人有627人，年紀越小越容易被詐欺。結果現在數發部等於侵入到你的地盤，明確的指出來13歲已經有金融自主的權利、理財自主，這個都是你們的管區，銀行局要講話啊！他都已經殺到你的地盤，結果你都默不作聲。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實沒什麼地盤的問題，我們各自有分工。"],["賴委員士葆：這是你的地盤啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：財政部也做出新聞稿說明了，我想在這個部分，法律規定銀行怎麼做，我們就怎麼做。"],["賴委員士葆：你贊成13歲以上就不用父母陪嗎？我個人是強烈反對啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個不是金管會能夠回答的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是一個金管會主委，我不會去……"],["賴委員士葆：你要回答，因為13歲畢竟未成年，才國一，他能夠自己理財？他容易受騙啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，主要是根據民法上面，對於未成年人有一些能力行為的規範。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。接下來請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00ca2c6b951f6b365c55b9b7d9df2795fe06dd83a37e4b454919d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:29:59 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09:43:22","影片長度":"00:13:23","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T09:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T09:43:22+08:00","duration":803,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.71846875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.384718750000001,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.700343750000002,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.73409375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.56909375,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.480343750000003,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.74596875,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.41284375000001,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.85909375,"end":78.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.03971875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.81909375000001,"end":86.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.08909375,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.56909375000001,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.70284375,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.49409375,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.21909375000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.04096875,"end":148.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.18909375,"end":153.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.22221875,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.64409375,"end":163.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.67221875,"end":162.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.31346875,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.53909375,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.78346875,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.84659375,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.68096875,"end":277.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.42534375000002,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.73284375,"end":207.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.48846875,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.57846875,"end":249.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.91159375,"end":278.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.08034375,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.43159375000005,"end":305.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.66659375,"end":309.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.52034375,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.61284375,"end":330.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.44346875,"end":330.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.62909375000004,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.67221875,"end":372.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.33409375,"end":355.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.46659375,"end":374.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.47034375000004,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPE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我想請石部長請石部長曾委員長"},{"start":12.628,"end":41.2,"text":"部長這個議題其實我也非常的關心而且跟非洲豬瘟一樣非常嚴重很多人已經在新聞上看到最近為什麼大家又發現兒科醫師大出走是因為北榮直接說他們有四位總醫師都不願意留任那另外你也看到台大醫院的主任已經下海開始值班那我昨天有去請教了一些台大小兒科的前輩他們說像今年錄取例"},{"start":43.241,"end":66.103,"text":"1.5他們雖然把它做成一個網路上的笑話是苦中作樂啦但他說錄取率1.5已經持續三年了那為什麼今年才特別被人家注意是因為主任也必須要下海值班好你可能以為錄取率而科醫師1.5是單純台大問題我們攤開全國的各專科醫師最新住院醫師"},{"start":67.464,"end":92.79,"text":"招收率還有兒科住院醫師招收率等等這是平均就是五成不是只有台大醫院問題是全國的問題但為什麼你需要來搶救這件事情是因為醫學中心都已經淪陷了醫學中心是最後一線全國大家不懂的不會的就送到醫學中心台大榮總等等的"},{"start":93.63,"end":118.358,"text":"那連醫學中心都變成主任院長要下來值班那他們的教學怎麼辦研究怎麼辦行政怎麼辦所以這是一個惡性循環我知道您之前曾經提過說你要去培養急重症人才尤其是兒科急診專科醫師的人才這樣才可以舒緩兒科的人力嘛結果呢我跟您報告最近兩年全國就有"},{"start":120.458,"end":147.584,"text":"31個兒科的急診醫師離開醫院您是急診醫師你很懂啊那在基隆市新竹市像這樣子都會區兒科醫師平均一個人照顧是300到500個人宜蘭一個兒科醫師要照顧的是21820人遠超過全國平均1165人所以我認為您這個問題因為其實累積了多年那今年一口氣爆發"},{"start":149.215,"end":165.455,"text":"你可能需要更快的方式來處理你有沒有什麼想法跟委員說明確實我看了這個近五年的這個兒科的招收率我們現在兒科的容額大概在每年130個左右那麼兒科的招收率大概都在六成"},{"start":166.236,"end":180.184,"text":"去年才到七成勉強到七成所以換言之就是各位您的這個資料看到就七八十位啦所以以這樣的數目確實難以因應全國的需求您講的六成是他願意訓練還有留任問題"},{"start":181.604,"end":205.456,"text":"那就是后来训练完之后的流向流向的话目前大概三成八留在医院那另外有六成二就是在基层开业所以我们现在从去年开始第一步对于这个走儿科的住院医师有津贴就一年每个月有一万块的津贴给走儿科的住院医师以及他的fellow他比如说他是选儿童遗传"},{"start":205.976,"end":228.923,"text":"或者是這個兒童的一些次專科那重症的ICU急診次專科類似像這樣那如果是小兒外科的話每個月是津貼是3萬這去年開始我們再觀察後面那第二個是我們在總額的部分明年會特別匡列從0到6歲在總額的部分匡列249億這專門給兒科來調整支付標準"},{"start":232.904,"end":251.957,"text":"然后保障1.1块钱所以把所有的0到6岁儿童的住院的费用要全面性的调高那么让这个在医院里面做集中症的这个儿科医师的收入可以提高那这是第二个第三个在贫贱的部分我们过去贫贱是像一般性贫贱"},{"start":252.597,"end":271.762,"text":"那会特别融入呢在医学中心的部分都需要有儿科的专门评鉴过去我们是只有儿童医院有专门儿童的这个评鉴那我们是有四家儿童医院那明年开始我们的医学中心的儿科所有的医学儿科都是我们重点"},{"start":272.242,"end":297.723,"text":"要平的部分也把它融入在評鑑裡頭那同時的另外一個因為剛剛跟委員說明了大概有六成二的兒科醫師是在基層開業所以我們包含了0到3歲的幼兒專責醫師制度還有從這個兒童的核心醫院到責任醫院我們也結合這個開業的醫師大家一起來照顧"},{"start":298.864,"end":325.806,"text":"我先问一个问题刚刚那个住院医师fellow可以多拿一万很好但你看今年北荣的问题就是他们结束了住院医师他是之后的留任对啊对他就是训练的时候有然后之后要训练完之后有没有要留在医院所以我们才会把他再纳入在平健里头同时把儿科儿童的住院的给他拉高那保障一个总额那我刚刚提到的"},{"start":326.71,"end":346.577,"text":"急诊的专责儿童医师怎么办他流失很快没有人要做我们是一步一步来因为如果我们现在把所有的儿童到急诊都要儿科来看会雪上加霜所以我们现在先不要要求说所有的儿童到急诊来都要儿科医师来看"},{"start":347.337,"end":373.477,"text":"反而是應該先第一步的他需要只要做一些比較那個小baby就是我們比較小的確實是需要然後用區域聯防的方式兒科用照會的方式就好然後我們一步一步的在把這個兒童的照護強化在這個急診的部分所以我們另外有一個網絡就是兒童醫療網的部分那個是去強化兒童的急診的照護你這樣講急診醫師可能也會跳起來"},{"start":374.602,"end":398.937,"text":"不会啦我是急诊出生的我们过去的训练里头就包含处理儿童的问题啦因为急诊医师的流失现在跟儿科医师的流失是在比速度诶这个急诊的问题是另外一块那就是刚刚提到那个急诊的拥塞那个需要处理所以我们现在积极的在处理这个急诊拥塞的问题来降低急诊医师的负荷这样好这个"},{"start":400.671,"end":420.053,"text":"當然我們很贊成您做這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫但很多全國的兒童醫院院長他們完全不敢公開講所以我來幫他們講他們希望問你說優化兒童醫療照護計畫的錢已經11月了但是還沒有撥下來"},{"start":420.914,"end":433.739,"text":"是不是真的因為你每年都說明年會改善但現在要11月了還沒有給錢醫院要自己墊像你這樣子的效率你剛講很多啊0到6歲撥了一筆錢等等你這個效率是怎麼支持兒童醫療"},{"start":436.039,"end":463.318,"text":"預算是應該已經有在這裡現在是撥款您提的是撥款的速度嘛這個我再了解一下那個意思是在這個撥款的部分我會來注意這個撥款的速度一週你會告訴我我才可以告訴這些院長一週內另外也跟委員報告就是說今年另外還有一個這個叫做健康台灣生根計畫這個到明年底一共是160億那裡面對於"},{"start":465.88,"end":490.817,"text":"這個兒童的 兒童醫院都拿到了這個每個醫院幾乎都是有1億的補助在給他們去發展依照不同醫院提出來的計畫好 再來有一個是勞動部 我質詢勞動部結果勞動部說要問你啊勞動部部長直接走到我前面說這個問題你要問的是衛福部部長好 就是他們即將推出的看一下這張圖的右邊"},{"start":492.298,"end":518.586,"text":"勞動部說呢未來1月1號很快兩個月後就要開始了可以用日來申請育嬰留職停薪所以他在小孩子兩歲以內好像可以請30天最多那我們會遇到什麼問題因為醫事人員跟托育人員已經開始跟我陳情那你一定要盡快準備因為趕快找勞動部溝通你只剩下兩個月可以準備第一"},{"start":519.706,"end":542.783,"text":"這個我自己也有請過 現在暈流停最少大概是一個月像我們這樣子醫事人員 護理師 醫師 放射師等等的我們要跑兩個地方 一個是工會嘛工會是辦你的職業登記 你現在的這個有在做這個業務 還是沒有在做這個業務這個是工會在管的 那衛生局就是管你的職登就是說我現在在哪一個機構上班"},{"start":544.124,"end":559.751,"text":"好所以之前還沒有實施彈性暈流停的時候護理師就已經抱怨連連的因為他們要跑流程要跑工會要跑衛生局還要跟院方要停職證明復職證明這個我了解這就是那個這個"},{"start":564.193,"end":590.267,"text":"執停業登記啦就是說如果你是沒有執行業務要辦理這個這個停業登記嘛那這個是短期的不用這個在行政程序上我會請醫師私立課發文這種短期的這個育嬰留庭有的是長期啦你一次兩年的那你就要先去這個辦理這個沒有一個月的也要啊一個月兩個月三個月都要啊都要啊我們會把它處理這個程序上我們來談一下"},{"start":591.708,"end":618.109,"text":"現在很多護理師他其實是願意的他不一定想要請長期他覺得這樣一天一天請是很好但我不希望這些流程太過繁瑣到最後他就不想請了反而一口氣請久一點我們現在當然很在意的是護理師護理師也有一個護理師黃但其實醫師 藥師 檢驗師所有的醫事員你都必須要一起把他引你進去所以你多久內一個月內"},{"start":620.211,"end":645.508,"text":"一個月內可以給我們這個然後另外你也會發給全部各地的衛生局所有的衛生局跟醫院去遵循去簡化這個程序啦不需要這樣很繁複那第二個這也是您的業務範圍內就是托育人員托育人員他們有這樣子的一個系統可以看到這個機構他每一個托育人員目前的托育數規定是1比5嘛但是如果他做到1比4是可以有補助的"},{"start":645.948,"end":666.788,"text":"也是一样遇到一样的问题假使这位托育人员他要请弹性孕假就必须要把他移除移除就是停业停业就要把他的托育数放到别人的身上所以他也许一个机构他其实是很体恤他的同仁的所以他让他请弹性但却因为这样子影响到他拿补助的机会这样怎么办呢"},{"start":668.759,"end":687.244,"text":"就是说他没有额外的不是他让他请了弹性育婴可是他的就类似我们的护病笔1比4个小孩本来他可以达到被你补助的被你奖励的结果他就被迫变成1比5他就拿不到怎么办"},{"start":689.338,"end":712.345,"text":"因為這個還牽涉到那個這個托這個托育人員的loading所以如果馬上就說通通就他的loading也增加了他等於是這個機構沒有多餘的彈性能力像在在醫院的話他這個育嬰流停的時候就會有另外的護理人員不是因為之前當然因為之前育嬰流停比較久"},{"start":714.145,"end":723.885,"text":"比較長是月嘛以月為單位的嘛那當然就可以去儲備這些人物現在是1月1號改成以日為單位以日"},{"start":725.393,"end":747.527,"text":"你是不是要找社家署短期我是覺得還可以的但是如果是比較長的時間也不好這樣的話那個托育的品質也會下降我再找社家署討論一下第一個問題是這個主席第二個問題很快要結束第二個問題是我現在問了所有的托營機構還有地方政府的社會局現在地方政府社會局量能是不足的"},{"start":747.947,"end":770.84,"text":"所以對他們而言也是一樣的意思他們現在光是跑這個行政流程就是說他們要請一個月的暈假他們都是跑行政流程要辦理停業啊到職離職等等至少要三天以上比剛講到的衛生局還要久三天以上喔所以他們現在也無所適從他不知道說他請了他必須要等到這個流程跑完他才可以放這個假"},{"start":771.66,"end":794.213,"text":"還是說他可以先去照顧他小孩一天然後回來等這個流程跑完沒關係並且地方的社會局應該也沒有辦法應付這樣子的狀況跟我剛講到的一模一樣好 這個行政程序的部分我也請社家署一起來討論行政程序跟照顧比這個也是一個月內可以拿到您的報告好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"},{"start":800.31,"end":801.854,"text":"接下來請邱正軍委員來做懸檔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時29分）謝謝主席。我想請石部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。這個議題其實我也非常的關心，而且跟非洲豬瘟一樣，非常嚴重！很多人已經在新聞上看到，最近為什麼大家又發現兒科醫師大出走？是因為北榮直接說他們有4位總醫師都不願意留任。另外你也看到臺大醫院的主任已經下海開始值班，我昨天有去請教了一些臺大小兒科的前輩，他們說今年錄取率1.5%，他們雖然把它作成一個網路上的笑話，是苦中作樂，但是他說錄取率1.5%已經持續3年了，為什麼今年才特別被人家注意？是因為主任也必須要下海值班。","你可能以為兒科醫師錄取率1.5%是單純臺大的問題，我們攤開全國各專科醫師最新住院醫師招收率，還有兒科住院醫師招收率等等，平均就是五成，不是只有臺大醫院的問題，而是全國的問題，但為什麼你需要來搶救這件事情？是因為醫學中心都已經淪陷了，醫學中心是最後一線，全國大家不懂的、不會的就送到醫學中心，包括臺大、榮總等等，連醫學中心都變成主任、院長要下海值班，那麼他們的教學怎麼辦、研究怎麼辦、行政怎麼辦？所以這是一個惡性循環。我知道你之前曾經提過你要去培養急重症人才，尤其是兒科急診專科醫師的人才，這樣才可以紓緩兒科的人力。結果我跟您報告，最近兩年全國就有31位兒科的急診醫師離開醫院，您是急診醫師，你很懂啊！在基隆市、新竹市像這樣子的都會區，兒科醫師平均1人是照顧300人到500人；宜蘭1位兒科醫師要照顧的是2萬1,820人，遠超過全國平均1,165人，所以我認為這個問題其實累積了多年，今年一口氣爆發，你可能需要以更快的方式來處理，你有沒有什麼想法？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，確實，我看了近5年兒科的招收率，現在兒科的容額大概在每年130位左右，那麼兒科的招收率大概都在六成，去年才勉強到七成，所以換言之，就是您的資料看到的，就是七、八十位，所以以這樣的數目確實難以因應全國的需求。"],["陳委員菁徽：你講的六成是他願意訓練，還有留任的問題。"],["石部長崇良：對，那就是後來訓練完之後的流向。關於流向，目前大概三成八留在醫院，另外有六成二就是在基層開業。所以我們從去年開始，第一步，對於走兒科的住院醫師有津貼，一年每個月有1萬塊的津貼給走兒科的住院醫師以及他的fellow，比如他是選兒童遺傳，或者是兒童的一些次專科、重症的ICU、急診次專科，類似像這樣，如果是小兒外科，每個月津貼是3萬，這是去年開始的，我們再觀察後面。第二個，我們在總額的部分，明年會特別匡列，從0到6歲，在總額的部分匡列249億，這專門給兒科來調整支付標準，然後保障1點1元，所以把所有的0到6歲兒童的住院費用要全面性的調高，那麼讓在醫院裡面做急重症的兒科醫師收入可以提高，這是第二個。第三個，在評鑑的部分，我們過去評鑑是這樣，一般性評鑑會特別融入在醫學中心的部分，都需要有兒科的專門評鑑，過去我們是只有兒童醫院有專門兒童的評鑑，我們是有4家兒童醫院，明年開始，所有醫學中心的兒科都是我們重點要評的部分，也把它融入在評鑑裡頭。","同時，另外一個，因為剛剛跟委員說明了，大概有六成二的兒科醫師是在基層開業，所以我們包含了0到3歲的幼兒專責醫師制度，還有從兒童的核心醫院到責任醫院，我們也結合開業的醫師，大家一起來照顧，我們一步一步在進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先問你一個問題，剛剛提到住院醫師fellow可以多拿1萬？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：很好！但你看今年北榮的問題，他們結束了住院醫師……"],["石部長崇良：他是之後的留任。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！"],["石部長崇良：他就是訓練的時候有，但之後訓練完之後有沒有要留在醫院？所以我們才會把它再納入在評鑑裡頭，同時把兒童的住院給付拉高，保障一個總額。"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛提到的急診專責兒童醫師怎麼辦？流失很快，沒有人要做。"],["石部長崇良：我們是一步一步來，因為如果我們現在把所有的兒童到急診都要兒科來看，會雪上加霜。"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["石部長崇良：所以我們現在先不要求所有兒童到急診來都要兒科醫師來看，反而應該是第一步他只要先做一些比較小的baby，因為比較小的確實是需要，然後用區域聯防的方式，兒科用照會的方式就好，我們一步一步再把兒童的照護強化在急診的部分，所以我們另外有一個網絡，就是兒童醫療網的部分，那個是去強化兒童的急診照護。"],["陳委員菁徽：你這樣講，急診醫師可能也會跳起來。"],["石部長崇良：不會啦，我是急診出身的，我們過去的訓練裡頭就包含處理兒童的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為現在急診醫師的流失跟兒科醫師的流失是在比速度。"],["石部長崇良：急診的問題是另外一塊，就是剛剛提到的急診壅塞那個部分需要處理，所以我們現在也積極在處理急診壅塞的問題，以降低急診醫師的負荷。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，當然我們很贊成你做優化兒童醫療照護計畫，但很多全國的兒童醫院院長他們完全不敢公開講，所以我來幫他們講，他們希望問你優化兒童醫療照護計畫的錢，已經11月了，但是還沒有撥下來，是不是真的？因為你每年都說明年會改善，但現在要11月了，還沒有給錢，醫院要自己墊，像你這樣子的效率，你剛剛講很多，0到6歲撥了一筆錢等等，你這個效率是怎麼支持兒童醫療？"],["石部長崇良：預算是應該已經有在這裡……"],["陳委員菁徽：你什麼時候會撥？"],["石部長崇良：現在是撥款，您提的是撥款的速度嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！"],["石部長崇良：這個部分我再了解一下醫事司在撥款的部分，我會注意撥款的速度。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以一週內，你會告訴我？我才可以告訴這些院長。"],["石部長崇良：對、對。一週內。"],["陳委員菁徽：一週內？好，一週內。"],["石部長崇良：另外也跟委員報告，今年還有一個叫做「健康臺灣深耕計畫」，到明年底一共是160億，裡面對於兒童醫院，每個醫院幾乎都是有1億的補助，給他們去發展。"],["陳委員菁徽：依照不同醫院提出來的計畫？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。再來是勞動部，我質詢勞動部，結果勞動部說要問你，勞動部部長直接走到我前面說這個問題要問的是衛福部部長。","這是他們即將推出的，看一下這張圖的右邊，勞動部說未來1月1日，很快，兩個月後就要開始了，可以用「日」來申請育嬰留職停薪，所以在小孩子兩歲以內好像最多可以請30天。我們會遇到什麼問題？因為醫事人員跟托育人員已經開始跟我陳情，您一定要儘快準備，趕快找勞動部溝通，你只剩下兩個月可以準備。第一，我自己也有請過，現在育嬰留停最少大概是一個月，像我們這樣子的醫事人員、護理師、醫師、放射師等等，我們要跑兩個地方，一個是工會，工會是辦理你的執業登記，你現在有在做這個業務還是沒有在做這個業務，這個是工會在管的，衛生局就是管你的執登，就是我現在在哪一個機構上班。之前還沒有實施彈性育嬰留停的時候，護理師就已經抱怨連連了，因為他們要跑流程、要跑工會，還要跑衛生局，還要跟院方要停職證明、復職證明。"],["石部長崇良：委員，我了解，這個就是執業停業登記，如果是沒有執行業務，要辦理停業登記，這個是短期的，不用，這個在行政程序上，我會請醫事司立刻發文，這種是短期的育嬰留停，但有的是長期，一次兩年的就要先去辦理……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，一個月的也要啊！一個月、兩個月、三個月都要啊！"],["石部長崇良：對，我們把它放寬，我們會處理。這個程序上，我們來盤點。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在很多護理師其實是願意的，他不一定想要請長期，他覺得這樣一天一天請是很好。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：但我不希望這些流程太過繁瑣，到最後他就不想請了，反而一口氣請久一點。我們現在當然很在意的是護理師，護理師也有護理師荒，但其實醫師、藥師、檢驗師所有的醫事人員，你都必須要一起把他研擬進去。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你多久內？"],["石部長崇良：一個月內。"],["陳委員菁徽：一個月內可以給我們這個？"],["石部長崇良：對、對。"],["陳委員菁徽：然後，另外你也會發給全部各地的衛生局？"],["石部長崇良：對，我們會給所有的衛生局跟醫院去遵循並簡化這個程序，不需要這樣很繁複。"],["陳委員菁徽：第二個也是您的業務範圍內，就是托育人員，托育人員有這樣子的一個系統可以看到這個機構每一個托育人員目前的托育數，規定是一比五，但如果機構做到一比四是可以有補助的，也是遇到一樣的問題，假使這位托育人員要請彈性育嬰假，就必須要把他移除，移除就是停業，停業就要把他的托育數放到別人的身上，所以也許一個機構其實是很體恤同仁，所以讓他請彈性，但卻因為這樣子影響到機構拿補助的機會，這樣怎麼辦呢？"],["石部長崇良：就是說它沒有額外的這個……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是，機構讓他請了彈性育嬰，可是就類似我們的護病比，一比四個小孩，本來機構可以達到被你補助及獎勵的標準，結果它被迫變成一比五就拿不到補助，怎麼辦？"],["石部長崇良：因為這個還牽涉到托育人員的loading，所以如果馬上就通通……他的loading也增加了，等於是這個機構沒有多餘的彈性能力，像在醫院育嬰留停的時候就會有另外的護理人員來照顧。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然，因為之前的育嬰留停比較久、比較長，是以月為單位的，他當然就可以去儲備這些人力。"],["石部長崇良：對啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：現在是1月1號要改成以日為單位，你是不是要找社家署？"],["石部長崇良：如果是短期，我是覺得還可以啦，但是如果是比較長的時間也不好，這樣的話，托育品質也會下降，我再找社家署討論一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，社家署，第一個問題是這個。","主席，第二個問題很快就結束。","第二個問題是，我現在問了所有的托嬰機構和地方政府的社會局，現在地方政府社會局的量能是不足的，所以對他們而言也是一樣的意思，他們現在如果要請一個月的育嬰假，光是跑行政流程要辦理停業、到職、離職等等至少要三天以上，比剛剛講到的衛生局還要久，三天以上喔！所以他們現在也無所適從，他不知道說他請了，還必須要等到流程跑完才可以放這個假，還是說他可以先去照顧他小孩一天，然後回來等這個流程跑完也沒關係？並且地方的社會局應該也沒有辦法應付這樣子的狀況，跟我剛剛講到的一模一樣。"],["石部長崇良：好，這個行政程序的部分，我也請社家署一起來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，行政程序跟照顧比也是一個月內可以拿到您的報告？"],["石部長崇良：好，可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝部長。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f001c707150a70d99d455b9b7d9df2795fe06dd83a37e4b4549eb97dbb4eb1fdcfb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:16:34 - 09:29:35","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T09:16:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T09:29:35+08:00","duration":781,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.26721875,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.890968750000001,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.91159375,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.61971875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.227218750000002,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.96909375,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.79971875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.75659375,"end":43.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.289718750000006,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.728468750000005,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.19221875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.45409375,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.62034375,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.45096875,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.96534375,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.01596875000001,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.73659375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.43159375000002,"end":140.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.34221875,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.12659375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.72846875000002,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.11159375,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.70096875000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.46034375000002,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.92846875,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.72471875000002,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.62284375000002,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.29284375,"end":197.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.51909375000002,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.91534375,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.20596875,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.97221875000002,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.42471875,"end":240.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.97221875000002,"end":241.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.06909375,"end":242.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.41909375,"end":245.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.35534375,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.79409375,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.97096875000003,"end":284.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.27534375,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.52284375,"end":287.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.58096875,"end":311.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.64471875000004,"end":330.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.45721875000004,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.84471875,"end":329.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.64596875,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.73284375000003,"end":388.9997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我跟 我跟委員報告其實我們現在每天都有上網去做搜尋那只要看到這些違規的廣告全部都會到我們合作就是有電商"},{"start":444.389,"end":458.744,"text":"平台合作的請他下架那假設就讓他們有幾個的措施現在大概有屏蔽措施屏蔽措施就是會讓你看不到那假設有漏網之魚看得到那麼他們也會做即時處理那第二個"},{"start":461.246,"end":475.182,"text":"他們也會自主管理也就是說AI的部分假設是台灣來自台灣的AI下訂的時候你也買不到你也買不到那即使你訂了你刷的是台灣的信用卡"},{"start":477.263,"end":502.43,"text":"你跟我說他買不到 而且長久 這個好像很穩定供貨那我想再請問一下 夾帶豬肉的產品 回到我們今天主題有多少來自這種集運包裹 你知道集運嘛 各地買然後集中在一起 一起然後再合併包裹 然後這樣子可以減少運費啊那我再說明一下 有多少來自這個 還是你沒有辦法講清楚不是 因為這樣講是 所有的包裹是海關這一邊他們過關以後 然後S光檢查有疑慮 他就會"},{"start":503.85,"end":519.82,"text":"第一時間通知我們我們就過去來判定那假設有豬肉產品我們開箱有豬肉產品我們一定收集以後我們抽驗然後呢集合在一起這種特殊疾運不是只有中國運到台灣因為越南也有因為這次爆發的這個非洲豬瘟"},{"start":520.68,"end":536.68,"text":"好像有報告說是病毒書是越南的病毒豬啦所以有很大可能這一次是來自越南的豬肉產品這還有病毒造成但是我要講說這麼明目張膽的宣傳這個敏感貨物啦 特殊貨物啊請問關務署有掌握這些業者嗎你有掌握這些業者嗎"},{"start":538.465,"end":561.354,"text":"跟委員報告 因為這個是平台平台這個部分還有這個這個就是電商平台其實不是屬於這個業者不是海關這邊轄管不是海關 那是誰呢但是我們這邊我們這邊就是我們現在因為我們要加強來這個查核我們現在會要求這個以後快遞貨物網購"},{"start":563.695,"end":587.707,"text":"網購的這個貨物的一個報關的時候我們要求他必須要申報電商平台跟集運商的這個相關資訊讓我們去做這個整個一個風險的一個管控那你剛剛你稍微提到了你X光夠不夠啊你檢疫數這個全這個數量夠嗎集貨包裹你全部有破包嗎集貨集運的這種包裹現在很多耶我們快遞貨物全部百分之百過X光"},{"start":588.948,"end":615.842,"text":"全部100%所以我們如果在影像判讀上面看到有異常就會拉下來那個數字還是很有問題啦謝謝你 那我請教一下江署長你們的預算裡面有一個科目叫做食品邊境查驗及國內外稽查管理請問這個科目有用在夾帶豬肉包裹還有去驗豬瘟病毒的部分嗎這個費用有用在這個地方嗎"},{"start":617.163,"end":633.859,"text":"我們所有費用都在邊境查驗的時候在應用那對於食品裡面對非洲豬瘟因為非洲豬瘟是對人體是沒有危害所以我們在食品面其實目前是沒有特別去驗但是我們有這個能力但是我們目前"},{"start":634.119,"end":654.709,"text":"就是說目前我現在業務的處理就是說你們是依照食安法剛剛部長有報告就是對進口食品藥品有沒有違法這個添加當然我們最重要就譬如豬這個有沒有瘦肉精等等那當海關發現有夾帶豬肋包裹的時候以及動植物要涉及動植物的檢驗檢疫的時候防疫檢驗他會通知的是防檢署"},{"start":656.35,"end":663.837,"text":"他不是通知你們因為他們要來進行那個病毒的核酸檢驗我這個說法對嗎食藥署沒有負責做這個非洲溫豬的這個檢驗"},{"start":666.618,"end":692.614,"text":"有沒有 我們沒有 目前沒有做非洲溫豬但是我們準備有這樣子的量能做核酸檢驗 好 你有這個能力但是目前這個業務不是你們嘛我要談的還是一個啦 就是假訊息啦這個 嗯 好 這個 卓冠廷 民進黨側翼啦三立媒體等等啦 他們就在造謠啊說這個是食藥署的邊境管制預算是因為 這個不能刪 因為跟豬溫是有關這次就是因為刪在這裡"},{"start":694.155,"end":712.869,"text":"豬瘟的部分就爆發了 這寫的這樣堂堂皇皇這個整個就是假消息在誤導啊這個部分不是食藥署的工作嘛不是食藥署工作嘛這個病毒不是你們在做的嘛測病毒不是 但是針對我們的進口食品包括來源 所有的是屬於"},{"start":715.373,"end":730.525,"text":"非議區裡面跟議區裡面我們會清楚的規定那你現在沒錢去做這個所以今天柱瘟爆發了有點這樣你要不要做一個釐清呢就麻煩署長您再講一下您現在負責的東西是什麼那筆預算是用在什麼地方"},{"start":731.511,"end":751.989,"text":"我們對於這邊境的預算其實我們的人力去查查所有的商品所有的商品也包含了我們可能不是在合法的進口的區域的任何商品不管是食品裡面或者是違法的肉品的進口非疫區的肉品等等都會是我們查查"},{"start":752.409,"end":780.285,"text":"但是我們並沒有查查的時候去檢驗所以檢驗那一塊的話事實上是在跨部署裡面跟農業部進一步的協作好 所以簡單的說這一次的豬瘟的事件是跟食藥署應該是不掛鉤的因為你沒有負責檢驗 委員這樣定義的話我們非常感謝也沒有你的責任嘛 是不是 是這樣嗎好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳委 署長請回那個要不要請拿一杯溫開水給杜署長這有待"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩關務署副署長和防檢署的杜署長。"],["主席：好，請署長、副署長。"],["陳委員昭姿：兩位首長早。"],["杜署長麗華：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：根據我的邏輯思考，非洲豬瘟的病毒不可能憑空出現在臺灣，應該就是帶有病毒的豬肉產品被夾帶入境了，但是這個豬肉產品也不可能自己飛進臺灣，所以應該有三個途徑，第一個就是旅客自己攜帶入境；第二個是快遞包裹入境；第三個是走私入境。對於這三種途徑，請問兩位認同嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：是這三種途徑？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：根據農業部最新的統計數據，從2018年到10月23號，旅客攜入的豬肉產品，不管是自主丟棄或是被查獲，防檢署彙整有9,511件違規輸入的產品，其中997件被查到豬瘟是陽性，也就是違規輸入的豬肉品當中有一成，大概10.5%有驗出非洲豬瘟病毒，這個比率是相當高的，可是我要確認一下，我一直到昨天晚上才知道這個數字還只是僅限於旅客攜入的部分，只限於旅客攜入的部分，這是你們前兩天的報告，也就是防檢署的報告。我想請兩位首長看這張圖，這張圖是昨天防檢署回復給我的資料，我要了好多天，辦公室同仁同時詢問在快遞輸入的豬肉產品裁罰案件數當中……我們問他從快遞輸入這個途徑進來且被裁罰的，裡面有多少是含非洲豬瘟的病毒？您可以想見嗎？署長，防檢署的同仁回答，這部分因為關務署查獲快遞包裹有豬肉製品時只會用書面通知防檢署，不會有樣本，換句話說，根本就不會去檢驗是否有非洲豬瘟，這件事非常讓我震驚耶！當你發現有豬肉產品的時候，根本不做下一步的檢驗，就是書面通知防檢署做紀錄，當然更不會切片什麼的，讓他們有機會去做豬瘟的檢驗。所以我想請教防檢署，你們認為快遞包裹的豬肉不用驗非洲豬瘟嗎？我想請署長跟副署長兩位說明一下，為什麼不需要去驗呢？"],["杜署長麗華：委員，我跟您報告，我更正資料，沒有，您剛剛講的那個數據是所有，不僅僅是旅客，也包括國際或郵輪包裹還有快捷，對於這些攔下來的攔截物，我們一定全部把它收集起來燒毀，第一個步驟一定燒毀，燒毀前海關會通知我們，這一定是被檢出檢出物才會通知我們，假設是毒品就會通知其他的單位，我們第一個動作也會抽檢，這些抽檢一定在第一時間送到獸醫所去做檢測，所以才發現所有的紀錄裡面有10%是陽性的，其他90%是陰性的。"],["陳委員昭姿：說母數好了，因為真正的母數沒有人知道，但是我要再確認一下，因為我昨天才詢問快遞輸入豬肉製品裁罰案件數，從本席整理的這張圖表，你也知道件數很少，可是防檢署同仁回答說，關務署查獲快遞包裹裡面有豬肉製品時，只是書面告知防檢署，並不會有樣本，沒有樣本怎麼抽驗？沒有啊！沒有做這件事啊！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，海關查驗入境旅客行李，不管是在機場或者是郵輪旅客的行李，以及郵包或者是快遞貨物，包括空運快遞、海運快遞，我們只要查獲裡頭有豬肉或豬肉製品，就會立即通知防檢署。我們通知他，是由他們來處理，防檢署來了就會把這個「案貨」拿回去處理、會去做這個檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：這跟你們同仁回答得不一樣！","從這個數字來看，怎麼可能只有這幾件？快遞輸入的貨物就這幾件被篩到有這個東西嗎？所以這個部分我還是要再釐清。你現在是這個說法，我也讓你有充分的時間來說明，但事實上我還是有疑義的喔！就是說，旅客攜入的也許你們比較能夠去處理，不管是他丟棄或者是被你們查獲，但是快遞部分的量是非常龐大的！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，快遞的部分我們是書面通知防檢署來海關這邊處理，他們來處理的話，就會把我們查獲的物品……"],["陳委員昭姿：都切片嗎？全部嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：拿回去的話，是防檢署他們會去做相關的檢驗……"],["陳委員昭姿：那樣不會這麼少啊！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：這就是防檢署後續的處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這個我要再確認，現在暫時接受你的說法。","下一張PPT是臉書一個公開的團購社團的截圖，其中的黑色框框標榜第一手大陸源頭發貨，裡面販售的產品很多，有豬腳筋、魚香肉絲、內含小酥肉的自煮火鍋等。其實任何人在網路輸入幾個關鍵字，例如「大陸、中國零食」，網頁馬上就會跳出購買連結，包括蝦皮、臉書團購社團、LINE社群等。這些不都是抵達邊境就必須被查緝的食品嗎？為什麼可以放在網路上賣，還像這張PPT左邊另外一個黑色框框呈現的，很自豪地說發貨速度第一，這代表供貨很穩定喔！而且支持各式各樣的物流。我覺得國人入境都知道要互相提醒不能攜帶肉製品，大家都很努力，怎麼努力了這麼久，發現好像是政府有責任！公開的團購社團這麼猖獗，而且到今天都還在營運喔！","這張PPT中的另一個紅色框框是在網路上隨便打「集運」、「特貨」這兩個關鍵字，我等一下再請教你們理不理解這兩個詞，馬上就會出現蝦皮或小紅書的廣告截圖。蝦皮上有集運業者標榜可以運送特殊敏感貨物，在小紅書上面，甚至直接說可以承接雞爪和豬腳筋的訂單。我先請教副署長，您知道什麼是集運、什麼是特貨嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟……"],["陳委員昭姿：您知道嘛！瞭解就好。"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，其實我們現在每天都有上網去搜尋，只要看到這些違規的廣告，全部都會請和我們有合作的電商平臺下架，假設……"],["陳委員昭姿：可是到現在都還在營業啊！"],["杜署長麗華：他們有幾個措施，現在大概有屏蔽措施，就是會讓你看不到，假設有漏網之魚、看得到，他們也會即時處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：你隨便key in就進去啦！"],["杜署長麗華：第二個，他們也會自主管理，也就是說……"],["陳委員昭姿：不好意思，時間很有限，等一下我要跟主席多要一點時間。"],["杜署長麗華：我再講，AI的部分，假設是來自臺灣的AI，下訂之後你也買不到，即使你訂了，你刷的是臺灣的信用卡，他們也不會出貨。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是他公然在網路上……你跟我說買不到，但是長久以來好像很穩定供貨！","我想再請問一件事，回到今天的主題，夾帶豬肉產品有多少來自這種集運包裹？你知道集運嘛？各地買，然後集中在一起，再合併包裹，這樣可以減少運費。有多少來自這種集運包裹？還是你沒有辦法搞清楚？"],["杜署長麗華：應該這樣講，所有的包裹是海關這邊，他們過關以後，經過X光檢查，如果有疑慮，他們就會第一時間通知我們，我們就過去判定，開箱之後假設有豬肉產品，我們一定會抽驗，然後集合在一起銷毀。"],["陳委員昭姿：這種特殊集運，不是只有中國運到臺灣，越南也有，這次爆發非洲豬瘟，好像有報導說是越南的病毒株，所以這次有很大可能是來自越南的豬肉產品含有病毒造成的，但我要講的是，對於這麼明目張膽宣傳敏感貨物、特殊貨物，請問關務署有掌握這些業者嗎？要怎麼防堵？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，因為這是電商平臺，相關業者不是海關轄管的。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是海關，那是誰呢？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：但是我們要加強查核，所以我們現在要求以後快遞貨物、網購貨物報關的時候，必須申報電商平臺和集運商的相關資訊，讓我們去做整個風險的管控。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是跨部門的，今天才會請這麼多單位來。","剛剛有稍微提到，你們X光機夠不夠？檢疫犬的數量夠嗎？集運包裹有全部破包嗎？集運包裹現在很多耶！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：快遞貨物全部百分之百過X光，所以我們在影像判讀上面看到有異常就會拉下來……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以我馬上就問你，X光機夠嗎？那個數字還是很有問題啦！謝謝你。","接下來我要請問一下食藥署姜署長，你們的預算裡面有一個科目叫做「食品邊境查驗及國內外稽查管理」，請問這個費用有用在查驗夾帶豬肉包裹是否含非洲豬瘟病毒嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們所有費用都用在邊境查驗，食品裡面對非洲豬瘟……因為非洲豬瘟對人體是沒有危害的，所以我們在食品部分目前並沒有特別去驗；我們有這個能力，但是目前沒有驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：在業務處理上，你們目前是依照食安法去執行進口食品、藥品是否有違法添加，當前最重要的就是有沒有含瘦肉精等等，當海關發現有夾帶豬肉包裹，涉及動植物防疫檢疫，他會通知的是防檢署，而不是通知你們，因為是由他們來進行病毒核酸檢驗，我這個說法對嗎？食藥署並沒有負責非洲豬瘟的檢驗，有沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：我們目前沒有做非洲豬瘟，但是我們準備有這樣子的量能來做核酸檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你們有這個能力，但是目前這個業務不是你們負責嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要談的是一個假訊息，卓冠廷、民進黨側翼、三立等等，他們就在造謠，說食藥署的邊境管制預算不能刪，因為這和豬瘟有關，這次就是因為刪了這筆預算，豬瘟就爆發了。堂而皇之地這樣寫！這整個就是假訊息，在誤導啊！這個部分不是食藥署的工作嘛！測這個病毒不是你們在做的嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：測病毒不是，但是針對我們的進口食品，包括它的來源屬於非疫區和疫區的，我們會清楚地規定。"],["陳委員昭姿：人家就說你們食藥署要負責這個，可是你們沒錢去做，所以今天豬瘟爆發了！你要不要做個釐清呢？","麻煩署長再講一次，你們現在負責的東西是什麼？這筆預算是用在什麼地方？"],["姜署長至剛：有關邊境的預算，其實我們的人力去查察所有的商品，也包含不是從合法區域進口的任何商品，不管是食品裡面或者是違法的肉品進口、非疫區的肉品等等，都會是我們查察的目標，但是我們並沒有在查察的時候去檢驗，檢驗那一塊事實上是在跨部署裡面跟農業部進一步地協作。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以簡單來說，這一次豬瘟的事件跟食藥署應該是不掛勾的？因為你們沒有在檢驗啊！"],["姜署長至剛：委員這樣定義的話，我們會非常感謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：也沒有你們的責任嘛！是不是？是這樣嗎？","好，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。署長請回。","請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f001578108d699d9db18220506846d94b4906dd83a37e4b45497a4feae0cd811d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:20:38 - 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謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員長"},{"start":11.001,"end":39.095,"text":"主委您早主委我請教因為九月公告九家首批通過洗錢黃字登記新制的業者名單作為市場建立初步的監管基礎據瞭解這些業者對虛擬資產產業的未來發展都抱持著高度的期待那主委有業者指出目前台灣只有不到百分之五的民眾"},{"start":40.296,"end":61.745,"text":"活躍在加密資產市場相比全球成熟市場如美國、韓國活躍人口達10%到15%以上那台灣的滲透率仍然偏低那我請問主委開拓國內虛擬資產市場的腳步你認為應該加速"},{"start":65.851,"end":84.259,"text":"投資民眾參與來積極追上國外成熟的市場還是建構虛擬資產完整的法規進而徐徐投資你的看法呢謝謝委員剛剛那個問題我想陳柱委員講說有兩個選項那剛剛委員提到說那個成熟國家其實就以虛擬資產的發展的趨勢來看的話"},{"start":95.424,"end":108.854,"text":"應該還不能稱得上就是我們所習慣的一般像資本市場或一般金融市場所謂的成熟市場它是在一個發展中也就是因為這樣最近各個國家才開始針對這個做一些初步的立法我想"},{"start":109.714,"end":129.354,"text":"剛剛委員也提到說比如說這個活躍跟滲透度這部分我想在一個發展中的一個市場大概都有這樣一個趨勢我想金管會對於這個虛擬資產的這個態度呢就去年的時候我們有答應說我們會在今年的年中送出草案我們就按照這個我們按照循序漸進謹慎友好的態度應對這樣的發展"},{"start":131.806,"end":157.988,"text":"所以說這是我們金管會現在的看法跟立場是不是 是的主委 金管會上半年金錢報告指出虛擬資產業者在防治洗錢打擊知恐及環舞擴的作業上有三個缺失包括客戶審查措施欠妥事對客戶交易持續監控機制"},{"start":160.891,"end":175.466,"text":"這個不夠完善以及這個未來未建立有效獨立的集合等未確認高風險客戶的財富與資金的來源等那我請問主委金黃會這個"},{"start":179.871,"end":194.469,"text":"經檢虛擬資產的業者所指出的缺失當中到底是故意比較多還是過失比較多你的看法呢是 我想說待會兒不足我請我們檢察局局長來說明我跟委員做個報告就是第一個"},{"start":195.31,"end":210.744,"text":"其實我們現在在管理我剛才在報告中報告現在是屬於第三階段是採登記制它還是以洗錢防治為概念的基礎所以剛才比如提到的幾個問題比如說KYC做得不足還有事後的監控還有內控內機的部分"},{"start":211.485,"end":237.393,"text":"我想在一個剛剛衍生出來的新產業的時候這個是會常見的一個情況畢竟開始假設我們專法通過它會變成是一個類似金融機構的高度監管那對於剛才講那幾個都是變成是未來基本的要求剛剛我在執法的報告裡面確實像比如我們會訂定嚴謹的內控累積制度還有財業物監理準則我想這部分大概未來都會有很顯著的改善"},{"start":238.055,"end":262.789,"text":"那按照經檢缺失的個案分析故意或過失行為的成分佔比主委金管會是不是會作為制定法規監理寬延的依據或參考進一步建構更完善的虛擬資產的市場是我想方向當然是這樣我想有些細節我請我們的那個局長給就跟院長做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":266.163,"end":283.474,"text":"報告委員就是說我們在檢查過程當中已經是根據我們現在初步針對洗錢房子的部分有這部分的缺失我們提這樣的一個意見給我們的檢查政期舉來做一些核處目前已經有對11家的幣商來進行核處共計裁罰了1300多萬"},{"start":287.717,"end":300.867,"text":"那另外呢就是對於在未來這個在專法部分在有關於像內控內積的部分的要求還有法令遵循風險管理這部分這些共同的規範的部分我們日後一定會來做一個加強這樣齁是 主委"},{"start":303.149,"end":329.802,"text":"缺失中提到虛擬資產客戶審查措施有欠妥事像是為確認這些高風險客戶的財富以及資金的來源那以及對已向法務部調查局通報疑似洗錢交易STR的客戶為事實研判是否調整客戶風險等級那我請問主委虛擬資產業者審查妥事"},{"start":333.244,"end":355.174,"text":"審查的措施欠妥式那到底是業者考量審查要求過嚴所以才會為了這個業績來便宜行事還是審查措施通報有主觀上的落差所以才會有這個陽奉陰違的這些情況的出現你的看法"},{"start":356.004,"end":377.854,"text":"我想剛才跟委員說明過我們的洗錢房制是一個非常非常嚴密的一個制度我想也是我們是遵循國際的規範以及其他部會我們共同來努力的部分那剛才講說他們在做這件事情的時候我們檢察局在檢查的時候發現了這個缺失我們就強烈要求我們也會移送相關的單位"},{"start":378.934,"end":379.495,"text":"主委啊另外"},{"start":395.412,"end":410.217,"text":"經檢缺失也提到虛擬資產業者對客戶交易時持續監控機制不夠完善以及沒有建立有效的獨立集合的功能那我請問主委到底虛擬資產業者"},{"start":412.658,"end":430.897,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法依據提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防治洗錢以及打擊知恐的這些辦法的規定來建構和運作合規的監控機制以及完善獨立集合功能呢"},{"start":431.497,"end":453.226,"text":"是跟委員報告其實我們在過去我們開始他是用洗房聲明進入到這個產業開始那是非常低度的管理後來我們今年3月30號開始以後他們必須登記制到9月底以前就剛才報告9月22號以前我們核准了9家以後呢接下來這些規範就會更為嚴格剛才委員提到就是說其實持續監控"},{"start":454.266,"end":474.99,"text":"我們的判斷是除了可能受限於他資源條件跟人力的配置以外還有就是他對整個產業他是否準備好可不可以持續精進所以我們在這個過程當中淘汰了非常多的業者也就是因為我們不斷的要求他們一定要做到既然在未來市場我們要健全發展這些都是很基本一定要做到的"},{"start":475.33,"end":488.776,"text":"主委對於虛擬資產業者的法規要求現階段到底是不是應該比照金融業者甚至於還需要更高另外會計師對虛擬資產業者的會計處理包括稅務的申報以及財產簽證等責任你認為國內的會計師是不是已經具備足夠的這些虛擬資產專業的準備"},{"start":501.884,"end":522.239,"text":"其實我們在那個登記制的時候呢我們已經開始納入會計師來做一個協助我想這是一個他們的一個報告也是非常重要當然對一個新興產業而言包括很多的未來的稅制還有像這個比如說未來會計如何表達這個可能大家都要應驗稅的部分不是金管會的主管我想我們的相關主管當然也會注意到這件事情"},{"start":522.819,"end":550.921,"text":"那只是說未來我們在專法裡面確實如委員所說的我們未來對虛擬資產服務業是採取高度監管的態度就是說當然他可能跟金融機構不太一樣但是那個觀念上是相近的比如說我們這次增加了對他的資本額財業務 內控 內積這些都是我們典型對金融機構的管理這個就更加強化不只是為了洗錢而已主委"},{"start":551.784,"end":578.207,"text":"事實上由於詐騙手法不斷的翻新台灣已成為詐騙的重災區每日被騙的金額高達好幾億遠超過鄰近國家現在還因為外國媒體的報導台灣在整個國際社會被冠上詐騙之島的臭名那我請問主委你認為虛擬資產業者是不是已經做好"},{"start":579.569,"end":594.003,"text":"防範詐騙守法 污染的準備以及目前金管會的監理法規現況啊 主委你認為應不應該來加強哪些這個面向的規範才能夠讓民眾有安全無虞啊投資虛擬資產的環境"},{"start":596.005,"end":621.185,"text":"我想委員剛剛提到的確實是這是要立專法一個目的之一因為我們剛才提過我們打詐專法裡面已經把VASP納入跟金融機構一樣的反詐的義務我想這次我們剛才提到就是說我們也發現到就是說比如說我們在資訊通報的時候我們只能同業之間通報未來我們也希望在異業把它納入來強化這部分這也是我們一定要來做的"},{"start":621.482,"end":643.975,"text":"好 最後一點 主委最近詐騙案件涉案對象多了許多專業人士甚至於包括公務員 包括律師 調查官俗話說 重賞之下必有勇夫那貪念更是罪惡的起點主委 現在就連知法換法的專業人士都可能"},{"start":644.815,"end":665.028,"text":"不顧高道德標準動起貪念 挺核走險來涉及詐騙案件那我請問主委你認為虛擬資產業者有沒有必要對行業中的專業人士要求善良管理人的注意義務以阻止以深色法這些情況的發生"},{"start":669.17,"end":688.585,"text":"對委員剛剛提到沒有錯就是我們這次專法裡面有一個專門的執法是針對這些從業人員的資格條件包括消極跟積極資格都會做要求這是我們在監理金融市場最基本的概念我想這部分已經把它納入了這樣我希望一定要嚴格規範謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林德福委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":75,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時20分）謝謝主席，是不是請金管會彭主委？"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委，您早。主委我請教，因為9月公告9家首批通過洗錢防制登記新制的業者名單，做為市場建立初步的監管基礎，據了解這些業者對虛擬資產產業的未來發展，都抱持著高度的期待。主委，有業者指出目前臺灣只有不到5%的民眾活躍在加密資產市場，相比全球成熟市場如美國、韓國，活躍人口達10%到15%以上，臺灣的滲透率仍然偏低。請問主委，開拓國內虛擬資產市場的腳步，你認為應該加速投資民眾參與，來積極追上國外成熟的市場，還是建構虛擬資產完整的法規，進而徐徐圖之，你的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員剛剛的問題，我想誠如委員說有兩個選項，剛剛委員提到成熟國家，其實就虛擬資產的發展趨勢來看，應該還不能稱得上像資本市場或一般金融市場所謂的成熟市場，它是一個在發展中的市場，也就是因為這樣，最近各個國家才開始針對這個部分做一些初步的立法。我想剛剛委員也提到活躍跟滲透度這部分，在一個發展中的市場，大概都有這樣的趨勢。金管會對於虛擬資產的態度，去年我們有答應會在今年年中送出草案，就按照循序漸進、謹慎、友好的態度，應對這樣的發展。"],["林委員德福：所以這是金管會現在的看法跟立場，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員德福：主委，金管會上半年金檢報告指出，虛擬資產業者在防制洗錢、打擊資恐及反武擴作業上有三個缺失，包括客戶審查措施欠妥適（未確認高風險客戶的財富與資金來源）、對客戶交易持續監控機制不夠完善，以及未建立有效獨立的稽核等。請問主委，金管會對金檢報告中的虛擬資產業者所指出的缺失當中，到底是故意比較多，還是過失比較多，你的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果待會有回答不足的部分，我請檢查局局長再來說明。我跟委員報告：第一個，其實我們在管理方面如同我剛才報告的，現在是屬於第三階段，是採登記制，還是以洗錢防制為概念的基礎，所以剛剛提到的幾個問題，比如KYC做得不足、事後的監控，還有內控內稽的部分，我想在一個剛剛衍生出來的新產業，這個會是常見的情況。假設專法通過，它會變成是一個類似金融機構的高度監管，對於剛才講的那幾個部分，都會變成是未來基本的要求，剛才我在子法的報告裡面，比如我們會訂定嚴謹的內控內稽制度，還有財業務監理準則，我想這部分大概在未來都會有很顯著的改善。"],["林委員德福：按照金檢缺失的個案，分析故意或過失行為的成分占比，主委，金管會是不是會做為制定法規監理寬嚴的依據或參考，以進一步建構更完善的虛擬資產市場？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想方向大概是這樣，有些細節我請局長做一個簡單的說明。"],["賴局長欣國：報告委員，我們在檢查過程當中，初步針對洗錢防制部分的缺失，會提出意見給證期局核處，目前已經對11家幣商進行核處，共計裁罰了一千三百多萬。另外對於未來的專法，在有關內控內稽的要求，還有法令遵循、風險管理等共同規範的部分，我們日後一定會加強跟檢查。"],["林委員德福：主委，缺失中提到虛擬資產客戶審查措施有欠妥適，像是未確認高風險客戶的財富以及資金的來源，還有對已向法務部調查局通報疑似洗錢交易STR的客戶，未適時研判是否調整客戶風險等級。請問主委，虛擬資產業者審查的措施欠妥適，到底是業者考量審查要求過嚴，才會為了業績而便宜行事，還是審查措施通報有主觀上的落差，所以才會有陽奉陰違的情況出現，你的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛跟委員說明過，我們的洗錢防制是一個非常嚴密的制度，是遵循國際的規範以及與其他部會共同努力。剛剛說他們在做這件事情時，檢查局檢查發現了這個缺失，我們就會強烈要求改善，若有不法的情況，也會移送相關的單位。關於任何缺失的動機我們不會知道，但是會針對缺失，按照規定該處罰、該糾正、該管理，就加以執行。"],["林委員德福：主委，另外金檢缺失也提到虛擬資產業者對客戶交易的持續監控機制不夠完善，以及沒有建立有效獨立稽核的功能。請問主委，虛擬資產業者為什麼沒有辦法依據「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防制洗錢登記辦法」以及打擊資恐等辦法的規定，來建構和運作合規的監控機制以及完善獨立稽核功能呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，在過去一開始他是用洗防聲明進入這個產業，那是非常低度的管理，後來在今年3月30日以後，他們必須經由登記制，到9月底以前就剛才報告的，9月22日以前我們核准了9家，接下來這些規範就會更為嚴格。剛才委員提到持續監控，我們的判斷是除了可能是受限於資源條件跟人力的配置以外，還有對整個產業是否準備好可以持續精進？所以我們在這個過程當中淘汰了非常多的業者，也就是不斷地要求他們一定要做到，在未來既然要市場健全發展，這些都是很基本且一定要做到的地方。"],["林委員德福：主委，對於虛擬資產業者的法規要求，現階段到底是不是應該比照金融業者，甚至還要更高？另外，會計師對虛擬資產業者的會計處理，包括稅務的申報以及財產簽證等責任，你認為國內的會計師是不是已經具備足夠的虛擬資產專業？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實在登記制的時候，我們已經開始納入會計師來協助，他們的報告也是非常重要。對一個新興產業而言，包括關於未來很多的稅制還有比如會計事項如何表達等等，可能大家都要來因應；至於稅的部分，主管不是金管會，我想相關主管單位也會注意到這件事情。未來在專法裡面確實如委員所說的，我們對虛擬資產服務業是採取高度監管的態度，當然它可能跟金融機構不太一樣，但是在觀念上是相近的，比如我們這次增加對它的資本額、財業務、內控內稽等等規範，這些都是典型對金融機構的管理，這個部分就更加強化而不只是為了洗錢防制而已。"],["林委員德福：主委，事實上由於詐騙手法不斷的翻新，臺灣已成為詐騙的重災區，每日被騙的金額高達好幾億，遠超過鄰近國家，現在還因為外國媒體的報導，臺灣在整個國際社會被冠上詐騙之島的臭名。請問主委，你認為虛擬資產業者是不是已經做好防範詐騙手法污染的準備？以及目前金管會的監理法規現況，你認為應不應該來加強哪些面向的規範，才能夠讓民眾有安全無虞投資虛擬資產的環境？你的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員剛剛提到了，確實是這次要立專法的目的之一，因為我們剛剛提過打詐專法裡面已經把VASP納入跟金融機構一樣的反詐義務，我們也發現到譬如在資訊通報的時候，只能同業之間通報，未來我們也希望把異業納入，來強化這部分，這也是我們一定要做的。"],["林委員德福：最後一點，主委，最近詐騙案件涉案對象多了許多專業人士，甚至包括公務員、律師、調查官，俗話說重賞之下必有勇夫，貪念更是罪惡的起點。現在就連知法的專業人士，都可能不顧高道德標準，動起貪念，鋌而走險涉及詐騙案件。請問主委，關於虛擬資產業者，你認為有沒有必要對行業中的專業人士，要求盡善良管理人的注意義務，以阻止以身試法的情況發生？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，委員提的沒有錯，我們這次專法裡面有一個專門的子法，是針對這些從業人員的資格條件，包括消極跟積極資格都會要求，這是我們在監理金融市場最基本的概念，這部分已經把它納入了。"],["林委員德福：是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員德福：我希望一定要嚴格規範，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00b778a313efa2bf8d55b9b7d9df2795fe06dd83a37e4b4549d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:06:18 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09:16:26","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T09:06:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T09:16:26+08:00","duration":608,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.85284375,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.771593750000001,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.872218750000002,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.563468750000002,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.94659375,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.017218750000005,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.44221875,"end":45.306593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.80409375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.820968750000006,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.88846875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.97284375,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.03596875,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.829093750000006,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.166593750000004,"end":52.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.799093750000004,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":57.743468750000005,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.63784375,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.523468750000006,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.95659375000001,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.12846875000001,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.21284375,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":84.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.79409375,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.79159375,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.99346875,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.18534375,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.57721875000001,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.95221875000001,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.39346875,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":139.33409375000002,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":141.57846875,"end":141.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.69159375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.70346875,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.59346875,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.33596875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.55534375000002,"end":154.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.90971875,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.02784375000002,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.85409375,"end":164.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.17471875,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.86596875,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.97534375,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.26159375,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.89846875,"end":175.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17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但是要攪拌喔我還有看到五十度 六十度 七十度其實要讓病毒不活化最好還是依照這個規定去執行所以可能這個部分要早一點讓國人知道因為我覺得到目前為止我很像在看新聞的時候或是看一些廣告的時候還是沒有看到這些相關的作文好 這個一定要加強 是 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們的防疫人才呢目前就是說 針對獸醫者或者是獸醫這個部分你們目前的那個進度在哪裡"},{"start":354.324,"end":373.605,"text":"報告其實在今年的六月份的時候總統也體諒到所有的部門的獸醫師他們工作的辛苦所以已經有跟他們比照這個不開業獎金就是醫師的不開業獎金這個部分已經有提列了後來看到那個新聞說一場吃五百塊的樣子"},{"start":374.505,"end":390.074,"text":"那個是特育獸醫師這針對每個場次他的規模的大小不同如果一般比較有一定的規模他一定會有駐場的獸醫師但是有些小型的可能他這個成本也很高所以他用合作契約"},{"start":390.774,"end":416.027,"text":"所以可能短期可能沒有辦法馬上遏止這個病毒所以我覺得這個長期來看的話還是要規劃這些人力的補足或者是訓練比如說目前的獸醫師只有80%是在從事這方面的工作你又怎麼來引誘或者是說來吸引我們這些從事畜牧業的這些專業人才來從事這方面的防範作為確實 獸醫師如果考上獸醫師都喜歡去小動物"},{"start":416.707,"end":435.561,"text":"是 對 那我們要經濟動物大家都讓他們來從事這方面的工作所以我們這個部分應該是要加強他們的一些補貼或者是獎勵OK 可以嗎這個在畜牧法裡面我想應該是會部裡面會再統籌的再做一些商議好 謝謝那我們請衛福部好 謝謝來 請部長"},{"start":440.894,"end":451.364,"text":"陸委員長對 部長那個現在如果查到那個違規的這些東西我們是怎麼來執行比如說它的SOP啊 時效啊 銷毀時程啊有沒有透明 有沒有一個監督的機制"},{"start":453.768,"end":472.701,"text":"委員您提的是說查到有來自於那個非洲豬瘟疫區的肉品那他就會違反兩個可能的這個違反樣態第一個是說他會違反我們在剛剛提到邊境輸入的時候他就要去申報因為在邊境"},{"start":473.522,"end":486.253,"text":"有申報的來自於這個這個非洲豬瘟疫區的直接就會退運或銷毀了根本不會進來所以會進來的都是非法輸入所以他就違反了我們食安法30條的規定那就會開罰16萬到"},{"start":488.975,"end":493.278,"text":"現在正在進行羅氏人才當中今年行政院有多給我們24位在邊境查驗的人力現在我們正在招募"},{"start":507.386,"end":521.267,"text":"我們看一下一些國外的一個成功的案例因為現在我們像像才剛剛接觸這個病毒而且是非常的陌生不過在國際上應該這個應該是都已經努力了一段時間所以有一些成功的契機"},{"start":523.564,"end":545.752,"text":"可能它就是如果是失敗的話它大概有兩個原因就是最下面那一行就是可能我們在生物檢測這個部分的檢測不足第二個就是我剛才講的可能民眾沒有被告知還有或者是廠商沒有被告知就是human behavior這個部分那它成功的契機大概有四個方向我給部長請你參考一下下一張"},{"start":547.543,"end":576.148,"text":"就是說可能因為有我們之前有一些國際的組織我們可能沒有在那個組織裡面可能需要去參考他的一些他的model裡面他已經有規劃好了他的一些路徑或者是說他應該怎麼做其實他這個知識都已經非常的充足我希望國內跟國際要接軌而不是說我們國內做我們的都不去參考目前越南 中國是在做什麼我覺得應該是要這樣然後有一些就是我們的風險的溝通"},{"start":577.308,"end":599.236,"text":"這些風險溝通就是要跟我們這些弱品市場的業者或者是這些我們從事這方面的行業的人去做一些我們跟政府部門的一個媒合跟合作看看這個病毒要怎麼防治最主要就是我們政府要大力來支持這些所有的損失跟以後的預防的一些就是裁員好不好好 謝謝盧委員提供的這個寶貴的資料謝謝謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長 請回"},{"start":607.17,"end":608.223,"text":"接下來請陳昭之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":214,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時6分）主席，有請關務署。"],["主席：請關務署副署長。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：副座好。我們先看一下第一張圖片，現在如臨大敵，它原本的樣貌長這個樣子，即非洲豬瘟在顯微鏡下的樣子。再來，我們現在知道高階、中階、初階判讀人員的人力是這個樣子，我想問你，真正X光機偵測的成功率跟判讀率是多少？關務署有沒有實際的數據？有沒有成功率或是誤判率這些數據？"],["郭組長寬淵：報告委員，我是關務查緝的組長。X光只要是有異常的，我們關員都會拉下來，當然，因為我們要精準打擊，所以如果拉下來的話，大部分都會有查獲物品。"],["盧委員縣一：我是希望，因為我們中階、初階的人比較多，高階的比較少，所以你真正要嚴格把關的人數沒有那麼多，你有沒有思考以後要藉由AI的判讀或者是輔助，來減輕這些人力的耗損或者loading？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，其實我們X光影像判讀的關員分了三個階級：初、中、高，其實通過高階測驗的同仁都大概已經有七、八成，我們在110年7月的時候，已經有開始運用AI來輔助判讀，當時是針對毒品的部分；我們在114到117有一個計畫，會把肉品還有相關菸品等等，也會納入我們整個AI的影像判讀……"],["盧委員縣一：速度可以快一點，因為我們現在是如臨大敵，所以一定要把這些我們剛才講的數據正確率、誤判率要弄出來，藉由AI輔助，讓我們的人力不要那麼辛苦，好不好？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，謝謝。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：有請農業部杜署長。"],["主席：請杜署長。"],["盧委員縣一：署長好。"],["杜署長麗華：委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：你知道現在我們國內豬的產值是多少嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們所有的防疫對象是5,441場，再加上它相關的周邊……"],["盧委員縣一：不是，我是說豬肉的產值。"],["杜署長麗華：大概有兩千億。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛大概算了一下，我們一個國人平均一年吃四十公斤的豬肉，如果一斤100塊的話，大概就是一千億，加上其他周邊產值可能就超過兩千億。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我想要問你，這次防疫期間，很多人可能受到限制，比如說他沒有辦法殺豬，沒有辦法有豬肉的販賣，在防疫的時候，可能養豬會得到補償，可是有些靠豬吃飯的人，尤其是原住民，有些是烤豬肉的達人或者是攤商、小吃業者等，這些有沒有在補助的規劃裡面？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們現在大概是針對一級生產鏈有相關的都有研擬補助措施；至於在市場裡面攤商的部分，因為是直接受害，所以也有列入經濟部補償的範疇裡面；至於在餐廳、小吃部等等，有沒有顧及到這些相關的關係人，這個部分我想經濟部也正在研擬中。"],["盧委員縣一：我想可不可以動用農業天然災害救助基金或是農業發展基金來補償這些要靠豬生活的所有層次的商人或者是族人，讓他們得到一些適當的補償？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，一級生產鏈的所有環節我們都有列入……"],["盧委員縣一：OK，好。我們也看到一個非常可怕的新聞，這可能會影響到我們的山豬，如果山豬被感染的話，可能全臺灣都淪陷了，所以這有沒有一個監測的機制，或者有沒有一個防範的作為？"],["杜署長麗華：一般我們在做非洲豬瘟、口蹄疫及豬瘟時，我們年度就有一些針對山豬的監測計畫，昨天為了臺中的沙鹿、后里等等幾場山豬活動的區域，也要求他們針對廚餘的收集區跟處理區一定要圍網來阻止山豬可能不定期、不定時的侵入。"],["盧委員縣一：我想附帶問一個問題，現在廚餘要煮到幾度才比較不會有一些感染的風險，大概幾度？"],["杜署長麗華：是，這個部分經過所有科學蒐集的資料是90度。"],["盧委員縣一：90度？"],["杜署長麗華：1小時，但是要攪拌喔！"],["盧委員縣一：我還有看到50度、60度、70度的。"],["杜署長麗華：其實要讓病毒不活化，最好還是依照這個規定去執行比較安全。"],["盧委員縣一：所以這部分可能要早一點讓國人知道，我覺得到目前為止，我在看新聞、廣告的時候還是沒有看到這些相關的作為。"],["杜署長麗華：好，這一定要加強，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。關於我們的防疫人才，針對獸醫佐或者是獸醫這部分，你們目前的進度在哪裡？"],["杜署長麗華：其實在今年6月份的時候，總統也體諒所有公部門獸醫師工作的辛苦，所以已經有讓他們比照醫師的不開業獎金，這部分已經有提列了。"],["盧委員縣一：後來看到新聞，好像一場是500塊的樣子？"],["杜署長麗華：那個是特約獸醫師，針對每個場次的規模大小不同，如果一般比較有一定規模的，它一定會有駐場的獸醫師，但是有些小型的，可能這個成本也很高，所以用合作契約……"],["盧委員縣一：有可能是長期抗戰，短期可能沒有辦法馬上遏止這個病毒，所以我覺得長期來看的話，還是要規劃這些人力的補足或者是訓練。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["盧委員縣一：比如說目前獸醫師只有8%是在從事這方面的工作，你要怎麼引誘或者是吸引這些從事畜牧業的專業人才來從事這方面的防範作為？"],["杜署長麗華：確實，如果考上獸醫師都喜歡去小動物……"],["盧委員縣一：是。"],["杜署長麗華：經濟動物，大家都……"],["盧委員縣一：我們要怎麼讓他們來從事這方面的工作？這部分應該要加強他們的一些補貼或者是獎勵，可以嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：這個在畜牧法裡面，我想部裡面應該會再統籌做一些商議。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。我們請衛福部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，現在如果查到違規的東西是怎麼來執行？比如說它的SOP、時效，銷毀時程有沒有透明，有沒有一個監督的機制？"],["石部長崇良：委員，您提的是查到有來自於非洲豬瘟疫區的肉品嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：對啊！"],["石部長崇良：那就有兩個可能的違法樣態，第一個違反的是，我們剛剛提到他在邊境輸入時就要去申報，因為在邊境有申報來自於非洲豬瘟疫區的就直接退運或銷毀了，根本不會進來，會進來的都是非法輸入，所以他就違反了我們食安法第三十條的規定，就會開罰……"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝部長……"],["石部長崇良：3萬到300萬。"],["盧委員縣一：現在有增編33名人力嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["盧委員縣一：目前對於這樣的人力，你認為是足夠的嗎？還是……"],["石部長崇良：現在正在進行羅致人才當中，今年行政院有多給我們24位邊境查驗的人力，現在我們正在招募。"],["盧委員縣一：我們看一下國外的一些成功案例，因為現在我們才剛剛接觸這個病毒，而且是非常的陌生，不過這在國際上應該都已經努力了一段時間，所以有一些成功的契機。如果失敗的話，大概有兩個原因，可能我們在生物檢測部分檢測的不足；第二個就是我剛才講的，可能民眾沒有被告知，或者是廠商沒有被告知，就是human behaviour這部分。他們成功的契機大概有四個方向，我提供給部長參考一下，因為之前有一些國際組織，我們可能沒有在那個組織裡面，可能需要去參考他們的一些model，他們已經規劃好了一些路徑或者是應該怎麼做，其實他們這個知識都已經非常的充足，我希望國內跟國際要接軌，而不是我們國內做我們的，都不去參考目前越南、中國在做什麼，我覺得應該是要這樣，有一些風險的溝通，風險溝通就是要跟肉品市場業者或者是從事這方面行業的人去做一些跟政府部門的媒合及合作，看看這個病毒要怎麼防治，最主要是我們政府要大力支持所有的損失跟以後預防的一些財源，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝盧委員提供的寶貴資料，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員。謝謝部長，請回。","接下來，請陳昭姿委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"16996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16996","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2deb9b513302bbc7033ae6293912ae2a21c15c146824155546c81ec575472a73085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-30T08:36:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T11:43:00+08:00","duration":11213,"影片長度":"03:06:53","委員發言時間":"08:36:07 - 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邀请国家安全局报告近期东亚情势变化对我国影响之言兮并被质询国家安全局局长蔡明彦报告委员陈永康等12人质询均由国家安全局局长蔡明彦即席答复决定已登记质询在场委员均已发言完毕报告及询答结束二 委员黄仁 沈伯扬 林义军 陈冠廷所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报"},{"start":1504.745,"end":1516.673,"text":"三 委員所提書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供資訊請國家安全局於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有對上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤需要更正的地方好 沒有的話我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1530.146,"end":1552.712,"text":"報告事項二邀請外交部經濟部大陸委員會報告我國參與2025年度亞太經濟合作APEC經濟領袖會議之任務及目標並被質詢三邀請國家安全局外交部大陸委員會法務部法務部調查局報告中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處並被質詢宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1557.148,"end":1565.682,"text":"我們先介紹在場的委員通常這麼特殊熱門的議題我們大概都知道來登記的委員不會太多"},{"start":1569.703,"end":1596.037,"text":"這個是有藝術的好 我們在場有永遠準時的陳永康委員羅美玲委員 謝謝好 那另外我們今天兩個專報雙專報都是非常重要的議題尤其還有徐曉欣委員也到場補充介紹那第一個是我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作會議的領袖會議的任務及目標的專報"},{"start":1597.057,"end":1625.504,"text":"另外是中國對台灣進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓還有我國相關應處的方式那這兩個狀報現在播比較多所以我待會請各位部會進行報告的時候都五分鐘以內每一位口頭報告的都盡量控制在五分鐘以內原則啦好那我們今天列席的官員有外交部長林佳龍亞太司林昭宏市長"},{"start":1627.72,"end":1648.491,"text":"亞非斯 顏嘉良師長歐洲斯 黃師長 黃軍耀拉美 加勒比海斯 鄭麗成北美斯 副師長 焦國祐條法斯 副師長 許博義國祖斯 副師長 張之薩國合斯 副師長 陳敬一"},{"start":1656.748,"end":1677.721,"text":"國傳司司長張秀珍沿社會副主任林世新秘書處副處長王伯漢人事處副處長吳迪文主計處副處長林美瑤資電處副處長羅倩暉公眾外交協調會執行長肖光偉"},{"start":1685.814,"end":1713.747,"text":"台日協秘書長張仁久領務局局長曾振勇另外我們經濟部由國貿署署長劉威廉剛從這個韓國回來另外大陸委員會副主委沈有忠國安局副局長陳松吉法務部政務次長黃士傑"},{"start":1716.94,"end":1729.073,"text":"主任檢察官白勝文另外我們法務部調查局是副局長徐國珍國內安全調查處處長陳宇源"},{"start":1732.708,"end":1752.014,"text":"那我這邊有假單要跟我們本會的同仁宣告第一個我們國安局局長蔡明彥因為他昨天來專報那今天有公務請假本席準假再來我們林佳雄部長因為12點以後一樣是公務所以在12點以後呢也因公務請假本席準假"},{"start":1752.814,"end":1763.714,"text":"另外剛才我們介紹的所有不管是北美 條法等等由副司長代理主官過來的都有出具請假公文我們可以請假都是因為公務"},{"start":1764.718,"end":1774.561,"text":"好 那本日會議有兩項議題以下逐一進行第一項議題邀請外交部 經濟部 大陸委員會報告我國參與2025年度亞太經合會領袖會議的任務及目標並被質詢我們待會會連續兩個報告都報告完"},{"start":1785.365,"end":1795.227,"text":"讓我們就不用進退啦就是兩項報告兩項專案都報告完再開始進行詢答首先請外交部長林佳龍部長報告"},{"start":1802.95,"end":1820.924,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早承蒙邀請就我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作經濟領袖會議的任務及目標進行專庭報告以下簡要說明首先本年的APEC主辦會員"},{"start":1823.736,"end":1830.842,"text":"韓國設定辦會的主題是打造永續明天那三大優先的領域是廉潔創新跟繁榮而韓國為因應"},{"start":1834.11,"end":1857.347,"text":"人口變遷以及人工智慧合作列為本年度的主要成果也期盼透過科技創新跟AI轉型來帶動永續經濟以及包容性的成長利用數位工具作為跨領域議題解方以應對若干APEC經濟體所面臨的出生率下降人口老化以及勞動力短缺的問題"},{"start":1858.368,"end":1874.069,"text":"那麼該兩項的主題與賴總統上任之後致力推動的台灣成為人工智慧島並提出健康台灣的願景那麼積極在佈局AI晶片智慧製造智慧醫療與數位治理等政策方向高度的契合"},{"start":1874.98,"end":1896.348,"text":"那麼就我國出席本年APEC領袖會議的一個準備的情形概要如下那麼本年這個經濟領袖會議是在10月31日到11月1日在韓國慶祝來舉行賴總統是敦請林新義執政再次擔任領袖代表"},{"start":1897.108,"end":1916.044,"text":"那麼我國代表團也在28日出發除出席相關會議之外並呢與其他的經濟體的領袖交流以分享台灣的成功經驗賴總統另外有交付三樣重要的一個任務請林領袖在會中來傳達這包括第一"},{"start":1916.604,"end":1941.67,"text":"台灣致力強化經濟韌性為促進區域經貿發展作出貢獻第二 台灣願分享先驅產業經驗促進公私協力以應對全球的挑戰第三 台灣推動以人為本的AI發展來作為實現APEC共同願景的助力此外 在政府協助之下我國有三位APEC企業諮詢委員會就是APEC代表"},{"start":1942.31,"end":1964.632,"text":"那鴻基公司的陳俊盛董事長台灣大哥大的林之成總經理以及廣達電腦的張家淵技術長是三位我們的APEC的一個企業諮詢委員那麼他們呢共同的強調利用數位工具來作為跨領域議題的解方透過公司協力那麼使AI成為亞太經濟發展的驅動力"},{"start":1966.514,"end":1984.088,"text":"深獲所有APEC會員高度的肯定跟重視而三位代表的倡議也獲納入自領袖建言以及專業部長的信函特別是張家淵技術長她就生技及醫療的一個工作小組向21個經濟體的衛生部長代表做出報告那麼"},{"start":1990.117,"end":2010.363,"text":"在我國參與APEC方面自從1991年加入至今已逾30年我們特別在強調的幾個我們的強項的領域在APEC平台上除了參與之外也貢獻包括數位創新 智慧醫療 韌性供應鏈女性賦權與中小企業發展等等倡議"},{"start":2015.205,"end":2019.547,"text":"那麼在到今年的10月30日為止韓方已經辦理了14場部長級的會議跟高階會議那麼這個包括台灣也積極的參與派部長、次長等高階的官員與會此外各機關本年共提出了10項的計畫案獲得APEC"},{"start":2039.757,"end":2055.602,"text":"經費的補助總金額逾98萬美金那麼我國在台主辦了34場APEC相關的會議和活動領域也相當的多元包括數位創新女性父權與數位健康等等那麼具體展現我國積極參與及貢獻APEC的一個成果那麼最後"},{"start":2060.27,"end":2087.935,"text":"APEC是我國平等參與最重要的政府間國際組織之一每年有來自40個政府機關超過500人次出席與300場的APEC會議未來我國將持續善用在科技創新 數位轉型 智慧醫療與中小微企業發展的領域的優勢深化與APEC會員之間的交流與合作以進一步提升我國在APEC的影響力那麼以上簡要報告那麼第二個報告是"},{"start":2090.081,"end":2114.261,"text":"針對中共對台進行常備管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處呢來進行口頭的簡單的報告那麼首先呢部長你這邊先停一下我們把第一個題目報完後續再第二個題目好 謝謝這樣你會有十分鐘啦是是是 好接下來第一個APEC的主題請國貿署劉署長進行報告"},{"start":2117.281,"end":2119.442,"text":"我們還是幫你們計時 讓你們知道時間一下主席各位先進 陳門各位委員先進邀請這個就經濟部我們參與這個2025年度APEC經濟領袖會議的任務跟目標進行報告"},{"start":2147.81,"end":2166.776,"text":"那麼以下簡要說明有關韓國2025年辦會的主題跟優先的領域如同剛剛林部長所提到的他是以這個打造永續明天為主題提出連結創新跟繁農三個主要的這個領域並且關注人工智慧回應人口挑戰還有促進文創產業發展這些議題"},{"start":2168.817,"end":2190.126,"text":"那經濟部主要是運用我們在科技領域的優勢 切合韓國今年關注的AI議題積極在APEC各個論壇跟工作小組提案跟辦理活動來展現我們從製造轉向創新並樂園辦理這個跟理念相近夥伴的這個分享我們台灣的經驗來加深彼此的夥伴關係"},{"start":2192.006,"end":2218.482,"text":"經濟部在這方面的提案主要包括運用AI技術協助中小微企業的數位轉型例如我們的產業技術師提出運用AI技術驅動區域產業設計創新來提升中小微企業全球市場的競爭力這個提案透過AI的設計跟解決方案來提升中小微企業的產品開發的效能另外我們的中企署也提出導入AI助力企業"},{"start":2221.064,"end":2241.636,"text":"這個成長倡議透過舉辦國際研討會還有邀請各國的專家跟業界的代表來探討如何協助中小微企業運用AI的工具來導入實際的營運來加速他們的轉型跟升級另外我們也透過舉辦活動跟提案的方式來探討AI對供應鏈韌性跟ICT生態系的發展的影響"},{"start":2242.777,"end":2262.802,"text":"例如我們的產業技術師有辦理以5G智慧製造強化供應鏈韌性研討會邀請多國的企業專家來分享5G製造跟現況跟產業應用那國際貿易署也提出人工智慧時代下促進ICT貿易跟生態系發展最佳的實踐跟公司對話的計畫"},{"start":2264.762,"end":2290.541,"text":"我們透過辦理公司的對話來探討貿易措施對ICT生態系發展的影響希望能夠增加ICT國際供應鏈的韌性另外經濟部也積極參與專業部長會議向各國分享我們的經驗包括在APEC中小企業部長會議我們分享我們推動中小企業數位轉型AI人才培育還有培育創新企業的具體做法跟成果"},{"start":2291.081,"end":2309.078,"text":"另外我們也在APEC能源部長會議分享我們在再生能源發展的成果提升電網韌性還有人工智慧應用的實力整體來說經濟部順應全球新興科技發展的趨勢以及本年APEC的主軸就是AI的這個議題"},{"start":2310.539,"end":2335.84,"text":"在APEC場域發揮我們的優勢透過分享經驗跟交流共同強化跟促進區域內中小微企業在各領域應用的能力那我們這些作為也獲得許多經濟體的肯定來彰顯台灣在APEC場域的積極貢獻以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝署長 請回接下來進行報告的是陸委會省副主委進行報告"},{"start":2345.678,"end":2363.391,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早陳蒙貴委員會邀請就我國參與2025年亞太經濟合作經濟領袖會議的任務及目標進行報告那麼本會關注的議題是在於美國總統川普還有中共領導人習近平將於今日稍晚會面"},{"start":2364.131,"end":2391.3,"text":"這是我們今天進行專報的主要的內容首先本會認為美中在川習會前已經舉行了五輪的經貿談判那麼塑造雙方來共同共管或者是在經貿議題上面有能力來降低風險的這樣子一個情勢那麼美中進行四輪的經貿會談雙方近期強化了出口管制的措施事實上是升高了經貿緊張的這個情勢那麼第二點我們關注到在第五輪的"},{"start":2392.561,"end":2410.874,"text":"進貿談判就關稅議題已經有初步達成共識那目標就是為了今日的川習會來塑造積極的這個氣氛那麼在第五輪的進貿談判主要的內容包含了像是關稅分泰尼農產品貿易出口管制稀土大豆T-talk的股權轉移等等議題"},{"start":2412.075,"end":2433.593,"text":"我們也同時研判美國的財政部長貝森特也已經表示川普或許會在明年2026年的2月中旬或者是在農曆新年前出訪中國大陸第二 川習會可能會涉及到台灣議題的部分美方已經多次強調不會為中方達成協議而改變長期支持台灣的立場"},{"start":2434.454,"end":2463.137,"text":"那麼幾位重要的領袖表達像川普近日就談到了台灣強調非常尊重台灣另外也警告中共如果犯台的話將會對中方來說非常的危險那我們也同時關注到美國國務卿Rubio在10月25號表明美方不會為了和中方達成協議而改變長期以來支持台灣的立場美國貿易代表Greer他26號也同步的表示美中此輪的貿易談判不會涉及到台灣議題"},{"start":2464.383,"end":2489.499,"text":"那即便如此我們還是會關注中共會藉著川習會一方面來維持美中關係並且也會加大對台宣傳那研判川習會不會整體的改變美中戰略競爭的格局那幾點跟各位分享第一個 中方會藉著川習會來經營美中關係我們研判中方還是會利用川習會的時候重申他們的對台立場並且加大對台的宣傳操作"},{"start":2490.259,"end":2509.197,"text":"中方會尋求美中關係的定調並且作為後續對美政策的一個基礎同時也塑造國際社會支持他們一中反獨的這樣子的立場單方面的會在川習會裡頭重申反獨反介入等等對台基調並且擴大對台灣社會內部渲染以美論還有促統的聲量"},{"start":2510.168,"end":2536.623,"text":"那麼第二美中高層的互動有助於控管美中關係但是美中的結構性矛盾基本上非常難解決競爭還是雙方關係的這個主軸如同前面所提到的美中的貿易談判多次涉及到關鍵戰略以及安全的議題包含像高科技產品的技術出口管制稀土出口分泰尼問題等等那麼中共將會持續的挑戰現行的國際秩序美中關係的競爭格局不會改變"},{"start":2537.583,"end":2557.68,"text":"那么鉴于川习会攸关美中后续互动我们政府也会密注相关的动态来持续的强化和有盟国家的沟通合作第一川习会展现美中控管全世界最重要的双边关系的能力并且为后续川普访中试水温政府会密切的注意后续美中关系的动态"},{"start":2558.697,"end":2587.964,"text":"第二政府會致力維護台海和平穩定的政策是一貫的那麼我們也會持續的強化和美國等民主國家來進行溝通和合作政府致力維持台海和平穩定的立場同時也強化自我防衛的能力捍衛台灣人民自由民主的生活方式我們同時也呼籲北京當局應該要與我方共同承擔維持台海和平穩定的責任並且不預設政治前提來進行溝通與對話尋求合作雙贏之道以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2589.912,"end":2616.286,"text":"謝謝副主委先請回我們第一項議題的專報已經報告完畢那待會相關的不管是幕僚或者首長可以在答詢的時候補充來第二項議題呢邀請國家安全局外交部陸委會法務部法務部調查局報告中共對台進行殘弊管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處並被質詢首先請國安局陳副局長上台報告"},{"start":2624.887,"end":2640.402,"text":"主席 各位委員先生 各位女士先生 大家好感謝大院安排本局進行中共對台長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處報告本局請向各位委員報告如下"},{"start":2641.363,"end":2658.984,"text":"首先分析中共長臂管轄策略及樣態中共在政治、經濟、社會、文化及軍事等層面採取各種威脅及干預手段以削弱台灣主權地位並在台內部營造心理恐慌及對立氛圍"},{"start":2660.509,"end":2678.315,"text":"案例樣態包括依修法擴增國安管轄範圍中共近年修訂《國安法》、《網路安全法》等國安法規並要求各級政府及公民配合管制措施增添國人戶中遭無端羅織罪名風險"},{"start":2679.956,"end":2701.877,"text":"二 設立反毒懲治舉報機制 中共發布懲毒意見 授權中方法院缺席審判並操作舉報制度 企圖將反毒法令向我境內延伸三 沒宣我公民遭判刑實例 中共逮捕我國人 禁制審判"},{"start":2702.978,"end":2726.915,"text":"指控違反分類國家罪是透過中方官媒進行媒宣應用是公佈名單立案懸賞通緝中共發布懸賞通告公開我國人各自立案啟動偵查追責並懸賞違法線索意圖營造對台具司法管轄權假象五"},{"start":2727.955,"end":2756.013,"text":"制裁企業增強威懾力度國台辦宣布制裁所謂台獨分子親屬設立公司禁止中方企業與該公司進行交易謀擴大成獨威嚇效果接續報告應處作為一 強固國內安全維護針對中共如內涉獨清單本局持續指導國安情報團隊註說中共利用在地協力者或黑幫子豬"},{"start":2757.31,"end":2781.777,"text":"資保危害國內特定人士情緒加強必要之安危部署二 依法反制中共滲透便其協調統合國安情報團隊掌握協力中共舉報以制裁作為之團體及個人相關作為違反我國國家安全法國家情報工作法刑法及個人資料保護法提供權責機關依法徵處三 提升國人風險意識"},{"start":2786.314,"end":2804.373,"text":"中共透過制定成都意見等作為對台威嚇監控特定對象本局將蓄意密鑄中共對台安全威脅適時揭露中共圖謀提醒互中風險是強化國際友盟合作"},{"start":2805.327,"end":2820.738,"text":"中共跨境鎮壓不法舉措,向為國際社會所不容,本局與國際合作有方,即與我理念相近國家,強化情報合作及分享機制,機先掌握中共圖謀及做法,及時應處並爭取有門國家支持。"},{"start":2824.028,"end":2847.837,"text":"最後是結語部分 國安情報團隊 持續強化國內安全防護及國際情報合作防範中共對我跨境脅迫及 綿宣操作 以上報告 敬請委員先進不吝指導 持續對我國安工作給予大力支持 謝謝好 謝謝副局長請回 接下來請外交部林佳龍部長上台報告"},{"start":2856.363,"end":2883.395,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士大家好那感謝邀請外交部就中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處進行專題報告並被質詢那報告的書面資料請參閱以下就重點進行口頭報告首先針對中國重慶公安局對沈伯陽委員以所謂涉嫌分裂國家犯罪立案偵查進行跨境鎮壓"},{"start":2884.716,"end":2904.911,"text":"或長臂管轄此舉不僅嚴重踐踏人權製造政治上的寒蟬效應更進一步破壞兩岸關係也坐實了中國就是麻煩製造者外交部和我駐外管處將繼續全力保護海外國人的安全防止中共圖謀得逞"},{"start":2906.687,"end":2925.79,"text":"那麼根據美國自由之家在今年2月發布的報告指出在2024年共有23個國家那麼犯下了共160起跨境鎮壓的事件其中中國是主要的肇事國家之一另外2014年到2024年之間共發生了1,219件的跨國鎮壓事件其中272件和中國有關佔比是22%"},{"start":2936.172,"end":2952.672,"text":"那麼中國目前已與俄羅斯等60多國簽訂有刑事司法互助條約也和60多國完成了簽署引渡條約那麼我們不能排除中共施壓其他國家尤其是與中國關係密切"},{"start":2954.066,"end":2976.023,"text":"較可能配合或屈從中國亦或是對中國依賴較高或有求於中國者引渡我國人至中國受審的可能性那麼中國的長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓不但影響我國也將影響其他國家並嚴重侵害了基本人權和各國的主權更違反國際法及國際關係的基本原則"},{"start":2977.233,"end":2996.966,"text":"那麼主要的民主國家也注意到中國跨境鎮壓的行徑那麼今年8月美國國務院發布了2024年中國人權報告除了詳細記錄中國政府在國內的嚴重侵犯人權行為也對中共在海外的跨境鎮壓行動對象以及方式進行詳細的列舉"},{"start":2998.647,"end":3018.832,"text":"此外法國國內情報總局今年3月發文示警中國、俄羅斯等國發動的跨境鎮壓與企業破壞案件激增同年的2月時任加拿大外長發表聲明對40名中國籍偷渡人員從泰國被遣返回中國的表達關切"},{"start":3019.952,"end":3032.942,"text":"而英國國會在今年3月也就跨境鎮壓舉行聽證會相關人士作證指出中共擴張鎮壓行為已經威脅到英國主權那麼在外交部的應處作為方面"},{"start":3034.587,"end":3048.217,"text":"保護海外國人安全是外交部的重要責任而反制中共對台進行長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓也是本部重要的工作之一自中國2024年6月21日發布所謂陳獨二條意見本部已多次"},{"start":3053.801,"end":3081.832,"text":"訓練外館加強防範並因應中國對我國人進行跨境鎮壓或長臂管轄的可能性包括事情提高相關國家旅遊警示等那麼此外我們也會持續擴大尋求國際支持和加強與民主國家的聯繫以提升並提升國人防範意識和能力培力外館提供海外受害國人的協助並持續與國安局陸委會法務部等相關部會加強情資分享"},{"start":3082.812,"end":3107.851,"text":"與協作共同全力確保海外國人的安全中國近年來在各式場合大肆操弄法律戰認知作戰以及灰色地帶的脅迫不僅我國及國人受到影響其他國家和公民也受到可能的受到危害那麼外交部呼籲各國加強合作共同來反制中共長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓的圖謀以上進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3110.454,"end":3115.343,"text":"謝謝林部長請回接下來進行報告的是陸委會省副主委"},{"start":3125.97,"end":3148.281,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早那麼陳蒙貴委員會邀請針對中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國應處進行報告以下提出本會的說明進行指教首先中共對台反毒的法律戰配合他們的整體工作部署意圖要延伸域外的法律效力是為了他們企圖達到統一來鋪墊法理基礎"},{"start":3149.181,"end":3166.978,"text":"那麼中共對台的部署從政策宣示朝向了具體落實並且反對還有嚇指台獨是他們對台的這個戰略核心也是習近平宣稱兩個百年中華民族偉大復興中國夢的重要關鍵更是2019年提出的習五條2021年新時代黨解決台灣問題總體方略的關鍵內容"},{"start":3169.54,"end":3195.891,"text":"那麼在推進祖國統一大業堅決打擊台獨分裂勢力反對外部勢力干涉以及牢牢把握兩岸關係主動權這一些話語都是這個中共長期以來進行長臂管轄或者是企圖對我國內部來進行司法干涉的一貫的用語本會再次強調中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬中共單方面的用政治框架來矮化我國主權我們絕對不會接受"},{"start":3197.25,"end":3225.618,"text":"那麼再來提到歷來中共配合他們整體的對台戰略規劃逐步推進並且會細緻化對台灣所謂的反毒來進行法律戰主要的層次包含用憲法還有反分裂國家法作為最上層的法律框架其次搭配刑法危害國家安全罪作為法律的依據再透過比較細部的規定例如去年通過的成都二十二條來完善以法賀獨的法律體系"},{"start":3226.318,"end":3248.394,"text":"並且以懲治的名義來宣示台灣作為中國的一部分採取逐步推進統一的強制性作為建構法律的正當性也意圖要阻絕國際勢力來協助台灣那麼我們針對中共持續發布懲毒名單並且制裁的措施立案調查等等舉措來結合它內部的法令追責來擴大對台威懾和壓迫提出幾點意見"},{"start":3249.375,"end":3267.538,"text":"首先就是我們看到中共在去年發布了懲毒意見以來有一系列的懲毒相關措施包括像是開設專欄跟舉報信箱提出了所謂的台獨分子清單增列了台獨打手和幫兇同時也懸賞我軍方人員宣布對我立法委員立案調查"},{"start":3268.519,"end":3282.496,"text":"那麼中共不斷的擴大成都的對象範圍他的目標已經從我方的政要官員知名人士延伸到軍方甚至是人員的家屬還有相關聯的企業等那麼由公佈清單然後提出懸賞立案調查"},{"start":3284.198,"end":3298.553,"text":"以往是由中共的國台辦還有國安部等中央部門主動宣布相關的措施那麼現在我們發現由地方的公安局也加入配合操作具體的個案目標就是要達到寒蟬效應來威脅我民主政治的運作"},{"start":3299.674,"end":3317.367,"text":"那麼我們研判未來也有可能進一步會將成都的名單提報到國際刑警組織來發布所謂的紅色通報來進行全球協氣那麼他們會洽詢對中國友好的國家來強行違反國際法的規定來進行所謂的缺席審判等等作為"},{"start":3318.328,"end":3341.946,"text":"那麼我們要再次的強調中華民國是主權國家中共對台完全沒有管轄權無權對我人民實施任何的懲戒所謂的法律規範對我國人民毫無拘束力那麼北京當局透過懲毒之名遂行跨國鎮壓之時妄圖要營造對台具有管轄權並且獲取推進統一的假象達到分化和阻嚇台灣內部的一個效果"},{"start":3343.041,"end":3371.312,"text":"本會會針對相關的輿情適時予以駁斥並且我們也會跟外交部來交換資訊透過外交的管道呼籲民主國家共同關切絕不配合中共濫用全球邪氣的這個制度警政署還有國安的相關單位也會加強關注是否有在地協力者來從事跟蹤 脅迫等行為如果有涉及和中共黨政軍從事合法行為的話主管機關一定會依法查辦"},{"start":3372.452,"end":3388.57,"text":"那麼我們同時要持續的向國人來提醒復入的風險呼籲國人要審慎思考復入的必要性本會提供數據從去年1月1號到今年的10月底為止目前遭到中共留置盤查失聯還有限制人身自由已經高達233人"},{"start":3391.462,"end":3412.711,"text":"那其中因為宗教因素被關押的有14名一貫道有11名他們在中國大陸宣導中華傳統文化結果遭到中共以違反刑法為由加以關押到現在還沒有辦法獲釋返台那麼也有一些是在觀光景點拍照就遭到中共的公安留置盤查的"},{"start":3413.931,"end":3436.527,"text":"所以我們為了確保國人附入的人身安全風險請國人審慎要評估附入港澳的必要性並且同時也要再次的重申中國大陸膨脹他們的國安定義恣意的以懲毒之名來控制我方的這個司法管轄的範圍會對國人造成風險那麼也呼籲國人在審慎考慮附入的必要性以上報告進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3438.835,"end":3443.461,"text":"好 請副主委回座那接下來我們請法務部黃士傑市長進行報告"},{"start":3452.338,"end":3467.628,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今日奉邀列席桂園會就中共對台進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處代表本部列席報告並被質詢之檢要報告如下"},{"start":3468.869,"end":3492.234,"text":"第一 近年來中國對台整體滲透 作為越區多元除傳統情報收集 竊取機密以交流民意進行統戰 發展組織之外以擴及網路空間與法律戰及輿論戰等領域此類具系統性跨境性質不法犯新對我國國家安全 社會信任及法治秩序構成極大的威脅"},{"start":3493.427,"end":3507.918,"text":"那麼關於長臂管轄權及跨境鎮壓等樣態分析請參閱書面資料那我國執法機關因應作為呢只是解要報告如下第一我們有強化法治基礎建構相關的保護規範"},{"start":3509.759,"end":3531.189,"text":"我們在這個上一屆立法院制定了反滲透法那麼為因應境外敵對勢力對我國民主制度之威脅依照反滲透法的規定典型之滲透行為系指任何人受滲透來源之指示委託或資助而從事反滲透法第三條之第七條之不法行為者"},{"start":3531.949,"end":3554.695,"text":"例如依照反滲透法第六條的規定如果受滲透來源之指示委託或資助而犯刑法第149條至第153條等妨礙秩序等罪或即會有刑法第31條之罪等加重期刑至二分之一目的性為防制滲透來源藉機之事鼓動衝突對立造成社會動亂"},{"start":3557.477,"end":3571.827,"text":"擬拒修正國家安全法修正草案強化規範密度國人若遭境外敵對勢力吸收而參與其犯罪組織在尚未有國家安全法所規定發展組織或有刺探或泄密"},{"start":3572.347,"end":3593.443,"text":"之前的現行法制對於單純的參與組織尚未有處罰的規定為國人一旦遭吸收而參與組織可能刺激行刺密竊密之行為或配合組織侵擾破壞活動對於國家安全或社會安定已產生相當的危害現行的法制有研修之必要"},{"start":3594.184,"end":3610.006,"text":"又鑒於受外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對實體或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織 機構 團體或派遣之人所指示委託或資助而再轉指示委託或資助之中間人"},{"start":3611.127,"end":3633.305,"text":"具有相同的違法性本部會完善國安法制避免處罰漏洞以拟據國家安全法相關條文的修正草案增訂參與組織罪明定中間人行事責任並就為大陸地區主權範圍及境外敵對勢力犯罪提高處罰規定未來完成修法當能收賀組織效二"},{"start":3636.078,"end":3654.357,"text":"深化執法動能保護國民安全檢察機關積極地偵辦國安案件近年已陸續偵破多起港籍人士在台遭威脅騷擾以及國家安全法相關案件檢察機關每年起訴國安法案件約22件起訴人數約36.8人"},{"start":3656.559,"end":3667.744,"text":"反滲透法案件由於跟選舉有關所以在111年從111年的偵辦事件起訴4人到112年偵辦事件起訴18人113年是逢選舉年所以一共偵辦了198件起訴97人114年1月18月已經偵辦了26件起訴7名檢查機關已設置國安專組或專股"},{"start":3684.017,"end":3693.707,"text":"台灣高等警察署與各警察機關並於個案偵辦中建立國安案件聯繫平台持續精進偵查技能加強偵辦的力度"},{"start":3698.306,"end":3720.845,"text":"認知戰也涉及關於刑法、選罷法、民用航空法、陸海工軍刑法及災害防救法、反送中法等等刑責警察機關秉持從嚴追溯向上溯源的態度嚴查嚴辦本部並責成調查局成立認知戰研究中心提升收嚴應處及反制認知作戰的能量加強我們的應對"},{"start":3722.779,"end":3748.331,"text":"那關於檢討機關的職能教育訓練部分在新進司法官的教育訓練部分本部司法官學院辦理國安案件的執行訓練透過課程的講解深度的座談實地的參訪讓這些學員充分了解國安案件的重要性理論及實務那麼在職的檢察官以持續辦理相關的研習的課程透過偵辦案件的分享優化查緝的量能"},{"start":3749.031,"end":3758.719,"text":"此外最高檢察所密集召集各地檢察機關首長學者法官辦理相關案件的講習以及深化國安意識及觀念精進辦案能力那麼最後"},{"start":3764.895,"end":3788.318,"text":"為了因應國際地緣政治及兩岸的局勢中國當局將會持續對我國操作法律戰以他們的反分裂法、國安法、反電信和網絡詐欺法等等來威脅我國國民藉此壓縮我國的司法管轄權為了因應這些複合性的威脅警察機關將加強反制境外敵對勢力滲透之犯罪查查工作"},{"start":3788.959,"end":3801.73,"text":"那麼持續偵辦國安案件 確保我國民主自由人權法治環境的永續發展 以上報告進行指教 謝謝謝謝次長請回 接下來進行報告由法務部調查局徐副局長"},{"start":3808.063,"end":3830.233,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就中共對台進行常備管轄劃進鎮壓及我國相關應處進行專題報告請提出報告如是一前言全國人大常委會委員長趙樂際在反分裂國家法實施20週年座談會表示中方已完善打擊台獨工作"},{"start":3830.993,"end":3857.87,"text":"法律工作箱顯將運用法治手段對台滲透打擊與中國廣設海外錦橋驛站誘捕異議人士趨勢相符對我跨境攻勢將更勝以往二 太陽級影響一 指示人員跨境騷擾收情中國借統戰滲透網路監控異議人士曾指示向香港籍歌手何韻詩潑漆抗議反送中理念"},{"start":3858.69,"end":3877.118,"text":"並收集在台藏人動態 干涉異議人士在台合法活動二 加大司法威懾行政制裁中國發布《整治台獨》二十二條通知涉台部門即以設立舉報信箱強化社會監控 運用實際判決以法賀獨公佈個資製造壓力恐嚇國人"},{"start":3881,"end":3902.237,"text":"懲戒台獨份子債入資產侵害台灣社會民防任性等方式片面對我虛構司法管轄及行政裁罰三 突破海域圍堵擴張管轄習近平113年兩會發表《海上鬥爭言論》中國及平密開展海域聯合巡航巡查作為"},{"start":3903.038,"end":3930.896,"text":"近日又在國際海事組織設常駐代表台灣擴展執法管轄權三 應處作為一 反制中共威嚇宣傳中國單方面針對我國人公佈立案通緝等作為恐嚇台灣民心本質為認知作戰我方過度論述其虛構之法律效果恐落入恐嚇威脅邏輯陷阱二 強制揭露境外勢力代理"},{"start":3931.536,"end":3954.838,"text":"我國相關立法建築與國家安全法反滲透法台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例等但無登記申報義務以制定專法或充實前開法律內容揭露中國在地協力者干涉騷擾作為三 鞏固父權全民安防工作中國公司協力實施常備管轄及跨境鎮壓"},{"start":3955.839,"end":3980.834,"text":"指示在地協力者監控收情我應發揮全民安防反制為現行安全防護工作作為要點僅為行政執行依據以完善法律授權及明確規範強制力是公私協力強化認知防禦政府應與選舉或敏感時機機先揭露中國認知戰慣用敘事模板協助國人辨識"},{"start":3981.835,"end":4005.993,"text":"我明天具事實查核多元防線量能以建構公司部門合作機制提升整體防衛韌性是結與本局近年偵辦為中共發展組織及刺收機密案件反滲透法案件竊取營業秘密案件反制中共挖角高科技人才案件將持續打擊中共滲透作為"},{"start":4006.713,"end":4031.941,"text":"共同守護台灣民主自由法治人權價值以上報告敬請自交好謝謝副局長請回那我們現在開始進行詢答一樣跟本會同仁報告我們今天兩個專報那當然大家可以自由詢答那官員回答另外因為美國川普總統在10點的時候開始進行川習會他們公告的會議時間是4個小時"},{"start":4034.042,"end":4060.501,"text":"但是會中或會後我們不曉得會不會有什麼跟台灣直接相關的訊息傳出來因為我們國家的外交部長在這裡代表國家的立場跟發言所以屆時如果外交部認為應該要及時做回應的話請隨時讓本席知道我們會提供時間讓外交部針對必要的情形做必要的回應四個小時後也許我們會議已經結束了外交部當然就可以回部去進行處理"},{"start":4061.061,"end":4076.268,"text":"所以在這件事情上屆時如果我們進行詢答那外交部認為有必要立即做回應的時候請相關同仁向本席反映我們會暫時提供一個時間讓部長在我們委員會做出"},{"start":4077.288,"end":4097.896,"text":"這一切由你們控制 由你們回應接下來我們開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右本席式會議狀況來進行處理第一位進行詢答的委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":4107.281,"end":4116.576,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林部長來 部長請委員好"},{"start":4117.78,"end":4124.366,"text":"部長好 部長今天我們要對中共對台灣進行這個常備管轄然後跨境鎮壓這個部分我們要表達嚴正的這個抗議那台灣的言論自由是不容這個跨境來做侵犯那剛剛陸委會有提到就是說像這個中共對於這個成都的這個對象的範圍是擴大然後制裁的力道也比以前強大我們也很清楚像過去的話確實都是由中共的國台辦國安法"},{"start":4144.765,"end":4167.791,"text":"國安部那等中央部門來做宣布相關的規範跟這個措施可是現在我們發現的是有地方的公安局加入了而來做這個具體的這個操作像這個沈博洋委員呢他就是在這個10月28號的時候呢是重慶市的公安局來發布這公告表示呢對沈博洋委員涉嫌分裂國家犯罪的立案來做這個"},{"start":4169.191,"end":4187.472,"text":"偵查那國台辦甚至表示說這是落實成都二十二條的具體行動必要之之舉那當然他這個就是殺雞儆猴然後呢來製造恐慌跟這個這個對立其實在去年沈博洋委員十月我記得是十月十四號的時候被列入這個台獨頑固頑固分子的清單"},{"start":4189.614,"end":4196.96,"text":"而且他那時候本席也曾經針對沈博洋委員出國可能會有一些安全上的疑慮也跟國安單位來做了一個質詢我們台上的王定宇召委其實也是被列入台獨幫國分子的清單之一你還是學長 對不對你還是沈博洋委員的學長"},{"start":4216.575,"end":4233.964,"text":"所以我們省委員員好或是說王定宇招委呢往後大家都很擔心在討論說以後他們出國的時候呢會不會呢因為中國呢他會就是說會利用跟他們交好的一些國家那是因為我們剛有提到嘛這個"},{"start":4236.346,"end":4253.545,"text":"我記得剛剛事業外交部有提到就是說中國他有跟這個俄羅斯等60多個國家簽訂了刑事司法互助的條約也跟60個國家簽訂這個引渡條約所以我們都很擔心列入這個名單的我們的這些委員們或者是說"},{"start":4254.206,"end":4255.988,"text":"他們所謂的台獨分子以後到這些國家去的時候我們會很擔心他們會被這些國家引渡到中國去受審其實除了這個之外其實中國在境外有設置井橋事務海外服務站"},{"start":4270.808,"end":4280.376,"text":"那這些他們都是以這個服務戰作為這個幌子實施這個監控那甚至像非洲中南美洲有一些國家他們甚至呢跟這些國家就是說我幫你來訓練當地的這個執法人員甚至就是利用這個方式來拓展他們國際執法的這個合作所以像這類的話"},{"start":4288.203,"end":4304.562,"text":"那是不是會提高我們國人到海外甚至會被送中的風險所以我想了解一下說萬一發生這種事情的話我們有沒有什麼其他的制衡的方式因為像之前的話像中國中國曾經就跟摩洛哥政府配合將維吾爾族的異分子愛上"},{"start":4307.165,"end":4311.927,"text":"於這個摩洛哥要轉機的時候呢就將他逮捕說要求送回中國送聖當然後來這個愛上並沒有成功送回中國是因為聯合國的這一個人權專家的介入所以後來他後來是被釋放了可是如果類似像沈博洋委員也好王廷宇 莊委也好如果他們到國外遇到這種狀況的話我們有哪一些具體可以抗衡的一些手段呢"},{"start":4332.743,"end":4361.703,"text":"報告委員 中共是靠鬥爭起家它是無所不用其極所以我們當然在面對這個中共的長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓我們當然全力的來做好 比如說宣導然後去讓我們的外管能夠協助國人如果發生一些緊急的情況另外跟友好國家之間也能夠一起來分享情誌以外做好因應"},{"start":4362.643,"end":4375.968,"text":"那麼其實他們針對個人在進行所謂的這個對台灣啦 當然在國外其實這些長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓都有作用力跟反作用力"},{"start":4377.214,"end":4402.719,"text":"這個也證實了中共就是它的本質所以我想全世界包括美國啦甚至像法國都曾經發生過這些情形之後他們也有一些因應但是我們國人因為有些出入在兩岸之間或者說到了中共比較能夠掌控的像港澳或他所謂的他的這個協力的這些國家那我們就是做好事前事終跟事後"},{"start":4403.939,"end":4418.408,"text":"各種的這個因應那我也要特別利用這個機會指出其實中共是從20年前在通過反分裂法的時候就啟動了三戰這三戰是所謂的混合戰是交互在運用就法律戰"},{"start":4420.05,"end":4432.459,"text":"輿論戰跟心理戰而這個最後的這個心理戰其實他就是想不戰而屈人之兵他企圖造成了一種紅色的恐怖那讓你人人自危你就會有一個自我檢查而且把這個戰場"},{"start":4435.561,"end":4449.689,"text":"打到對方的 比如說台灣的內部所以我們在因應上是必須要全面性的除了是法律戰涉及到的這些之外其實它有背後更深層的一種混合戰在支撐它對台的鬥爭"},{"start":4452.276,"end":4474.157,"text":"市部長剛剛有提到我們請友好國家要特別留意我們會跟他們有很多的互動換言之像王委員或是沈博洋委員他們也只能到友好國家去因為像現在的話我們知道像他的審讀22條裡面他是可以用缺席審查"},{"start":4474.997,"end":4477.999,"text":"就是說他們會經過缺席審查然後再來的話就是可能就會通報這個國際刑警組織發布紅色通緝令他們大概的這個方向是這麼走嘛對不對以後沈博耀委會面對這一連串的這個局面嗎"},{"start":4493.949,"end":4505.494,"text":"先審查那再來呢因為他現在已經立案偵查了嘛偵查當然就是開始要做審查審查之後呢罪名確立之後就是要通報國際刑警組織嘛再來就是通報這個紅色通緝令嘛是會來會去這樣子的走向嗎"},{"start":4509.736,"end":4530.595,"text":"因為中共對於所謂的長臂寡角跨境世界包括自己的中國人包括台灣人也包括其他國家的人所以這種威脅是引起全世界大家都是認為是一個威權擴張那當然我們自己要做好防範萬一發生的時候也要營救"},{"start":4531.876,"end":4549.373,"text":"可是我們怎麼樣去避免以及發生的時候去應處那我要特別提到的說它不是單純的法律戰它是一個所謂的三戰合一的混合戰那我們在因應的時候也必須全面性來看待它因為它這個東西想不戰而屈人執兵想要從內部瓦解我們"},{"start":4550.134,"end":4562.901,"text":"那造成人人自危那至於說所謂缺席審判啦然後所謂的這個不受時效追溯時效的限制啦其實這個是20年來他們逐步在鋪陳那只是他現在國力比較強聲量比較大那我們自己當然政府該做的 人民該做的以及跟國際之間的合作還有我們之間跨部會單位之間的協調包括資訊的分享 預警"},{"start":4577.429,"end":4588.719,"text":"以及發生之後的一些包括這些旅遊警戒這個都是做到我們可以說可是因為它有涉及到它的引渡條約或者司法互助條約那是不是因為這樣子送到所謂的國際的所謂的這些包括這些刑事組織"},{"start":4597.727,"end":4620.039,"text":"這個當然我們會去因應那也不會讓他要如何因應我們不斷地在宣導然後也跟友好國家其實在不斷地針對這個東西交流甚至我們包括透過很多的機制在進行所以台灣不會孤單的這個因應不是只針對台灣針對台灣人 中國人跟各國的人他都可能選擇性地適用"},{"start":4621.46,"end":4642.288,"text":"只是說因為我們在國際上跟中國因為有這些涉及到的他對我們的這種直接的鎖定特定的人那這個我們也不能夠就是當作只是一個點名但是我意思說怎麼去做好防範如果發生的時候是妥善因應但是這個事件我剛剛講有作用力就有反作用力"},{"start":4644.209,"end":4657.58,"text":"這個對中共也沒有好處啦我是說純粹在國際上來講大家這個就是一個迫害這個既有以規則為基礎的國際秩序的一個麻煩製造者嘛那我們在這方面我們也必須要宣傳讓國際共同來因應"},{"start":4660.06,"end":4688.321,"text":"是 看起來現在我們沈博洋委員是一個很大的這個目標那部長你會不會就是說請跟沈博洋委員就是建議就是說有哪些國家不建議他去哪些國家是OK會嗎因為我現在想像中國的話它在非洲也好中南美洲甚至東南亞他們其實都很多這方面的這些互動就是說像設立這個海外警察站服務站等等或是有司法互助這些國家我們會建議列入這些列入這個"},{"start":4689.782,"end":4699.231,"text":"清單的這些我們說受清算者好了會不會給予他們一份名單就是說哪些國家最好是不要去哪些國家建議其實是說那個是安全的我們會有這種動作嗎有 我剛剛講不同層次啦就個人的層次當然因為我們是"},{"start":4706.357,"end":4719.995,"text":"一個民主自由人權的國家個人的旅行我們沒有辦法完全限制可是被點名或是有可能會被這個所謂長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的對象那我們怎麼樣做好宣導跟"},{"start":4722.037,"end":4736.952,"text":"因應的這個準備這一個政治人物他有他的判斷跟智慧這個我們也必須要跟他做好這個之間怎麼樣去保護他之外其實他本身的判斷跟應處是非常重要的"},{"start":4737.583,"end":4765.18,"text":"OK 好 那時間的關係因為我們也看到就是說中國對於台灣的這個壓力是給予的壓力是越來越大那當然我剛剛有看到很多單位相關的國安單位都有提到說其實我們有很多國安法還需要更加完善的這個地方我想這個行政單位跟立法單位其實應該要共同來做努力以維護台灣的這個尊嚴也好或者是說我們這些台灣人的這個在海外跟國內的這個安全"},{"start":4765.64,"end":4790.586,"text":"OK 好 以上謝謝我跟委員補充一下 我們有通電或訓練外館有跟各種的發生的情境或樣貌做好我們的標準作業程序所以這個範本都有發到各個外館我們111個外館 這個是屬於在國外那當然兩岸之間有陸委會或其他的單位另外一個我想國連也都知道我們自己最清楚可能面對的情形的時候"},{"start":4791.246,"end":4805.191,"text":"我想這個對兩岸交流是很大的一個破壞某種程度違邦不居亂邦不入中國讓他自決於世界因為到了中國受中國統治以外在中國以外中國也想統治"},{"start":4806.375,"end":4830.101,"text":"這一種想要破壞國際的這個秩序其實已經引起全世界的一個共同要去面對跟因應那我也相信這個民主的開放社會最後還是會戰勝這種想要透過極權手段到海外去控制甚至去所謂的施以法律上的這種制裁的這種邪惡政權"},{"start":4834.123,"end":4856.577,"text":"謝謝 羅美玲委員 部長請回這個 羅委員不用擔心我跟沈博洋委員我們前兩個禮拜週末都出國開會我們也都好好坐飛機回來了所以中國想做的事情我們要好好應處但是也不用被他嚇到啦 不好啦好 我已經被通緝 也不是通緝 被警告三次了好 接下來進行詢問委員 陳俊宇委員"},{"start":4866.411,"end":4892.767,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請佳榮部長林部長請部長早委員早部長 我們這幾天大家都在關心這個川習會那後續的這個APEC會議發展的走向我們代表團在本週二28號已經提前三天抵達韓國了那也比"},{"start":4893.447,"end":4920.196,"text":"以往更早相對來說我們也爭取更多的時間依照我們代表團所透露只要有可能的話都會盡量安排相關的會面我想先請教部長就是在明天的峰會正式登場之前我們的代表團是否有機會可以順利安排到雙邊的會議或是有其他非正式的會面的機會"},{"start":4921.388,"end":4948.449,"text":"是 在就是領袖代表方面當然已經有跟一些國家這個討論之後有安排那因為這個也涉及到各方的這個考量我們等這個見面之後自然就會跟這個社會來做報告那至於在會場上比較非正式也有很多的機會可以交談"},{"start":4950.51,"end":4962.635,"text":"我們也有跟一些國家也有先溝通非正式的方式所以除了正式的雙邊的會談以外也有非正式的交談"},{"start":4964.832,"end":4990.698,"text":"那在這個報導當中我們也看到了我們今年台灣這邊也有積極在爭取能夠參與這個撰稿會議並且預計能夠達成五項的這個文件的發言相信我們在這個會議當中能夠和其他的這個經濟體平等的提出文字的建議那來表達我們台灣的立場並且能夠有機會來參與協商等等"},{"start":4993.078,"end":5016.083,"text":"那在此我還是請教部長是否我們針對這個部分能夠透露的部分我們在什麼樣的這個議題當中有機會可以提出發言並且能夠發揮比較大的一個影響力是 報告委員因為APEC基本上是採取共識決那我們當然有平等參與的權利之外也有一定的影響力"},{"start":5017.163,"end":5022.388,"text":"所以對於今年的主題我們都有準備包括倡議另外就是我們的領袖代表也會有發言所以這個部分就是剛剛講的五大議題方面那因為今年特別重視AI就是數位科技的應用"},{"start":5036.901,"end":5039.705,"text":"我們也認為台灣在這方面可以貢獻所以也有針對提出一個未來跟健康照護有關的倡議所以我們不只是去參與我們也可以在這裡面倡議"},{"start":5056.948,"end":5072.834,"text":"那部長前幾天我們也看到這個川普總統他去訪問日本那並且與這個高市首相互動非常的熱絡那高市首相也表示他們在會談期間確認台海平和平穩定的"},{"start":5073.914,"end":5097.211,"text":"一個重要性那高市首相不但要延續先前友台的一個立場在他上任至今也接連在這個日本東協峰會等重要的國際場合呼籲國際要重視台海的一個和平穩定對此我想請教部長我們在這個APE期間有沒有這個信心能夠和高市首相安排到這個雙邊會談來討論"},{"start":5100.474,"end":5129.234,"text":"我們與日本之間的這個經濟安全合作的可能有 我們在安排中那不管是這個川習會還是這個APEC會議後續的發展我們還是希望說我們這個外交部這邊能夠緊密的來掌握相關的訊息那後續我們如果有新的訊息再和部長來做一個討論那部長您先請回那接續我們邀請這個省副主委"},{"start":5138.312,"end":5162.563,"text":"副主委早就這個中共的資訊戰還有宣傳戰來請教我們副主委我們陸委會在這個報告當中提到中方需要藉由這個川習會來經營美中的關係研判中方將與這個川習會重申對台的一個立場並且藉機加大對台宣傳的一個操作"},{"start":5164.485,"end":5192.45,"text":"我們在這個近期也看到這個有一連串的一個公式包括中國的一個三個八十週那也設立了一個台灣光復紀念日那王滬寧在談話當中也提到統一後有七個更好那還有一個是新華社署名中台文的一個作者連續發表這個促統的相關文章"},{"start":5193.629,"end":5220.51,"text":"他們不斷的堆疊出這麼多這個打擊台灣的言論或是在這個十五五的這個規劃建議當中提出要打擊這個台獨牢牢把握這個兩岸的一個關係他想要主導這個想要這個主導權那我想請教這個副主委就是對於中共在這個川習會前密集對台的一個文攻我們這邊有沒有觀察到"},{"start":5221.41,"end":5242.297,"text":"和中共敘事相同的一個異常帳號有在增加的一個現象另外這個川習會還有APEC會議之後中方會不會有更多的這個以美論或是棄台論的一個操作還是會持續觸統或是打擊台獨作為他們主要的一個宣傳 有沒有可能"},{"start":5242.797,"end":5262.455,"text":"是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先您剛提到的就是關於在網路上面有沒有出現異常帳號來進一步的來去渲染相關的這個以美論 棄台論那麼我們會跟這個國安單位特別是國安會還有國安局這邊來密切的在輿情上面來去做關注那這邊跟委員報告確實是有異常的這個現象"},{"start":5263.075,"end":5280.569,"text":"那我們也關注到他們也開始在利用一些比如說美國比較親中的一些學者啦智庫啦等等去散播一些似是而非的言論然後中方再去擴大這樣子的言論的一個渲染等於就是說利用美國人的嘴來說出中國人想要的這個東西利用美國親中的學者"},{"start":5281.309,"end":5309.662,"text":"那我們也有關注到像這樣子的這個現象在過往也譬如說在那個Foreign Affairs還有最近大家有關注到Times的這一篇那麼在網路上面來說確實都有一些異常的這個帳號然後會刻意的來加大渲染那渲染的主題大概還包含了像是剛剛您所提到的像以美論棄台論等等然後並且會框稱說你看在川習會的時候已經談到了所謂的這個兩岸同屬一中啦或者是不支持台獨啦但事實上這個有可能只是在會談的過程中"},{"start":5311.823,"end":5329.171,"text":"習近平提出來但是川普可能不見得會有表態或者是表達不同意但他們可能就會利用這樣子的一個這個去頭去尾的這樣子的方式然後來來進行一個輿論的這個渲染所以我們也會針對這樣的這個情況因為待會就要舉行川習會會不會真的有這樣子這個情形我們都會加以密註好"},{"start":5330.014,"end":5355.004,"text":"那另外就想針對這個宗教統戰的部分來就叫我們副主委中共滲透我國的這個宗教活動已經行之有年但是在民間這個研究團體團隊指出在去年大概有一萬六千人附中參與這個宗教交流的一個活動那其中有超過一半都是在這個福建省來舉行了"},{"start":5356.364,"end":5371.198,"text":"我們陸委會也認為隱藏的黑數應該遠遠不止這些我想請教副主委我們觀察到近期中共對於宗教統戰他的做法是怎麼樣會有什麼樣的特徵或是論述"},{"start":5372.239,"end":5389.565,"text":"我們是否能夠有什麼方式來反制是 非常謝謝委員的這個指教那首先就是宗教統戰確實是我們不斷來提醒國人應該要注意到的那我們首先還是要表達政府的立場健康有序的各樣的這個交流我們都會予以尊重並且予以鼓勵"},{"start":5390.365,"end":5408.218,"text":"那在宗教統戰在宗教交流的這一塊來講我們認為如果雙方是針對宗教的教義的延期或者是針對儀軌的這樣子的一種交流的話我們基本上都是非常的鼓勵而且會協助主動協助給予協助但比較遺憾的是我們看到在雙方進行宗教交流的時候往往"},{"start":5408.798,"end":5425.958,"text":"中方就會放進了一些統戰的元素比如說他會特別去強調這個所謂的兩岸同屬一中把媽祖形容為所謂的中國神用這樣的這個方式那甚至是去渲染這個包含像是到中國去進行宗教交流就是回家然後兩岸同屬一中兩岸同跟同源"},{"start":5427.82,"end":5454.071,"text":"這樣子的一些輿論跟這樣子的一種敘述都會在宗教交流的過程中不斷的出現都會不斷的這個出現彷彿是要來進行一種輿論上面的一種洗腦那我們近期還關注到特別的有趣的這個現象也跟委員做一個分享那我們也發現宗教交流以外那他們甚至會開始來擴張一些所謂的產業鏈譬如說在重要的這個宗教的景點啦他們就會來開始有一些這個文旅啦觀光的這樣子的套裝形成"},{"start":5454.691,"end":5482.198,"text":"那在這個套裝行程的過程中甚至也是會夾雜了一些去宣傳中國好棒棒啦或者紅色產業供應鏈等等的這樣子的一些敘事更甚至於有趣的來了他甚至會在進行宗教交流的過程中邀請我們的年輕人去然後來嘗試來進行姻緣配對這非常的妙進行姻緣配對那做這樣子的一種可能要透過心靈融合啦或者是來進行一種人緣上面的這樣子的一種統戰的作為這個我們都會後續都會持續的密鑄"},{"start":5483.038,"end":5507.993,"text":"好那中國這個國家宗教事務局在上個月他公布一個宗教教職人員網路行為規範那在最後他還聲稱台灣的宗教教職人員也參照本這個規範來執行那我想請教就像這種片面納管我國宗教教職人員的做法是不是也一樣隱含著帶有這個長臂管轄的一個企圖他實際上"},{"start":5509.537,"end":5526.035,"text":"的這個效果又是什麼這部分副主委是不是簡單說明一下是 謝謝 謝謝委員那確實剛剛您所提到這個長臂管轄用法律這也是我們今天沈伯陽委員現在也到了就是類似的這樣子的一個情況的一樣的這個來進行各式各樣的這個操作在宗教也不放過"},{"start":5526.696,"end":5544.385,"text":"那我們有特別注意到9月15號公布的這個宗教教職人員網絡行為規範裡面喔那在第二條的地方有提到宗教的網絡行為要接受政府監管是要接受政府監管還有社會監管這是非常誇張的事情然後那另外第九條裡面甚至還提到了說不能進行民族分裂"},{"start":5544.885,"end":5570.611,"text":"不能進行民族分裂所以我們會在這個議題上面來講會特別的提醒國人在宗教交流的過程中應該還是要注意人身安全然後避免會涉入到這個人身的這個風險來進行國人的這個提醒跟提示那另外針對反制的這個部分來講的話我們也會特別提醒這個中方那麼如果濫家的利用宗教交流來遂行統戰的話那麼未來他們到台灣來進行宗教交流的話我們大概"},{"start":5571.011,"end":5590.027,"text":"也會有相對應的一些這個管理跟作為比如說我們也會要求他們的行程必須要相對的單純或者是他們的團體的成員如果裡面有涉及到台辦系統統戰系統的話而不是宗教人員的話那麼像這樣子的情況我們也會特別的來予以提醒不應該有這樣的情況的出現好"},{"start":5591.127,"end":5618.464,"text":"我們台灣的民間信仰文化盛行政府在處理上的尺度應該要小心拿捏在合理的適度情況之下同時能夠防範中共的假交流 真統戰的目的對於相關審核的機制我們更加精進的話這部分我要請我們陸委會能夠持續關心也避免中共對我長臂管轄的手段的操作"},{"start":5619.184,"end":5626.828,"text":"好 以上謝謝謝謝副主委 謝謝俊宇委員接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席首先請陸委會"},{"start":5652.489,"end":5662.466,"text":"文昌副主委本席要請教一個有關我們台灣自己執法的問題中國的他用政治"},{"start":5663.516,"end":5682.638,"text":"去處理法律他用違反國際的不管是公約或者法律的架構去遂行他的政治意志我們待會再討論但我們在我們的境內發生的事情我們國家有權處理的國人都關心我們處理的進度在四月份五月份有一位在華碩工會"},{"start":5684.827,"end":5705.148,"text":"擔任職務的人叫做錢立他是中國籍配偶他不僅在公司用中華人民共和國的法律一條一條去檢視這家公司的執行長同仁 長官 基層幹部而且還把他們一個一個向中國舉報"},{"start":5706.77,"end":5715.037,"text":"另外他也檢舉一般人說你違反中華人民共和國什麼法什麼法什麼法等到有一天同意之後通通要把你抓起來"},{"start":5716.445,"end":5744.267,"text":"然後呢他還成立了一個解放軍的粉磚鼓吹武統武統什麼意思啊武統就是用軍事力量屠殺我國的軍民百姓那這一個四月份五月份媒體大量報導之後我個人本席還有我知道媒體也有都向你們進行了檢舉那現在很多國人關心說那這個事情到最後啞啞的情形我們知道了他現在中國那邊悔不當初啊中國的公安才不理你半夜去敲門踹他"},{"start":5745.808,"end":5752.373,"text":"所以台灣跟中國哪邊民主 哪邊法治哪邊自由 哪邊人權秋恩雅雅就知道了他現在想盡辦法要回來那這個潛力"},{"start":5756.209,"end":5778.988,"text":"到底陸委會這邊是沒有處理還是已經處理沒有揭露但我可以接受在不影響無辜第三方的情形下請你適度的讓國人知道這個案子目前的進度是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先關於前例這案確實我們有跟相關的部會進行多次的討論然後希望能夠在適當的處理了沒有處理了先跟委員報告在什麼時候處理的什麼時候"},{"start":5780.309,"end":5803.074,"text":"我們在8月25號的時候那現在處理的這個情況我們在8月25號已經請移民署廢止了這個前女友她的這個台灣身份跟戶籍然後回到拘留的狀態目前的情況是這樣所以這一位前姓女子 前例用中華人民共和國的法律在我們國家的境內恐嚇中華民國的公民"},{"start":5804.113,"end":5828.916,"text":"恐嚇上班公司的老闆說你這個言行你看某某電視台他用他看哪一家電視台說他要懲治台獨欸用思想檢查他還在電梯裡面張貼中國法律對他還在電梯貼這幾家電視台不能看這幾家報紙你看了齁那幾家報紙電視台現在都坐在那邊啊所以看了他們齁就要檢舉欸要照中方人說我把你通通抓起來啊通通要關啊有的還要槍斃欸"},{"start":5830.523,"end":5854.545,"text":"他還寫了一千個字的文章貼在那邊啊這你都知道嘛所以今天你們第一次公開揭露這位錢麗在8月25號被剝奪中華民國公民身份然後我們也在8月28號的時候已經辦妥了他的廢紙登記他的戶籍的這個部分也已經辦妥了你們應該叫中國他們通過的他們叫情報法還是什麼法"},{"start":5855.666,"end":5875.181,"text":"法律裡面明定中華人民共和國的公民有協助中國政權也就是中共進行相關勤工作業法律規定喔你作為一個中華人民共和國的國民公民如果你不配合中共政府進行情報工作的話是違反他們法律是要抓去關的"},{"start":5876.618,"end":5899.623,"text":"也就是這樣子所以我們在台灣我們不管擔任公職我們參與選舉我們才會要求你不能有專從國籍美國籍不行日本籍不行對台灣充滿敵意的中國籍當然也不行而潛力這個就最典型所以你這個潛力被剝奪了國籍這是我們國家用正確的使用法律剝奪中華民國國籍的第幾個應該是首例"},{"start":5903.581,"end":5926.788,"text":"其實是已經有好幾位了有好幾位了嘛我覺得為什麼要揭露你知道嗎不教而殺未知虐我們要讓他們知道在台灣移民進來我們都歡迎都是我們台灣的一份子我們對於任何國家越南的新住民印尼的新住民歐美各國包含中國進來的就是我們同胞但是如果有哪些法律"},{"start":5927.941,"end":5957.201,"text":"踩到了你來這個國家不是為了愛這個國家是為了消滅這個國家我們就可以剝奪你的國籍潛力就是一個好的例子所以8月25號潛力依照中華民國法律已經剝奪他中華民國國籍OK好那這個我覺得應該讓國人知道你們是有做有處理而且如果按照5月份檢舉到825其實不能算慢因為你們還要看證據還要調查還要給對方我們台灣總不像中國中國你拿張白紙就可以消失三個月"},{"start":5958.021,"end":5986.976,"text":"對不對 揭露那個武漢肺炎那個醫生死不瞑目台灣不是我們還要給你答辯的機會根據證據我們用我們的文明的方式執法也足以證明台灣跟中國是不一樣的國度不一樣的體制好 那你先請回接下來我要請教國安局你邊走邊聽我昨天有問局長有關宮古航庫KYC這個命題昨天蔡局長一直告訴我這是個案這是個案我昨天幫你們查出來了"},{"start":5987.816,"end":5993.164,"text":"台印人壽回報粉飾太平不是個案不是個案"},{"start":5994.124,"end":6017.58,"text":"我這邊有當事人簽名的證詞也就是說我中國他用政治的理由你今天如果是真的詐欺搶奪竊盜我沒話講 刑事犯罪用政治的理由不符合中共的思想檢查就給你 包括我們的國軍國軍做了什麼事國軍保護我們2300萬的居民同胞他就給你通緝"},{"start":6019.493,"end":6047.531,"text":"資通電軍我們的那個軍情局我們的政戰局的同仁我們這些國軍他就通緝他然後這些同仁去銀行辦理相關業務的時候被KYC也就是Know Your Customer的資料庫跳出警示帳戶那這一個事情其實我們接續我昨天的詢問就是說這不是個案是我們外購的資料庫染紅了他也不是個案"},{"start":6048.655,"end":6067.003,"text":"是基層台銀人壽回報的粉飾太平金管會昨天我了解起來他們回溯回去 要求台銀人壽台銀人壽是承辦我們軍保的行庫我們軍人的保險都在那邊你拿中華人民共和國通緝我們國軍的東西來進行刁難所以"},{"start":6071.584,"end":6086.655,"text":"我這邊有列出來 你仔細看各行庫所使用的外購的KYC資料庫WordCheck Dojons LNRS Files還有Patriot Officer這個都是我們各行庫 有的會買兩個 有的會買一個然後臨櫃的時候 臨櫃人員說你要辦貸款 你要更改名字"},{"start":6094.281,"end":6120.143,"text":"稍後一下請你提供身份證號碼姓名他就會輸入他就會請二線人員不是靈櫃靈櫃叫一線會請二線人員呢他就會進去查查的時候會有四類一個叫國內外制裁名單第二個是金融機關列管名單第三個現任或前任政治人物其實我這覺得有點但政治人物竟然放在這裡面我們以後去貸款都有點困難好再來第四個涉及負面新聞等等"},{"start":6121.531,"end":6145.296,"text":"結果中國的 因為台銀 像台銀買的那wall check裡面是把新華網啦 中國相關的資料庫公安公佈的什麼通緝資料wall check裡面有涵蓋所以他一勾雞 一查就會跑出來就會產生他們在金融機構面對的困難我覺得到目前為止我不願意苛責金融機構還是那句話 不教而殺為之虐他就買了國外的資料庫啊"},{"start":6146.291,"end":6168.783,"text":"就一查的時候跑出來紅色的他就告訴你你貸款可能有困難啊就間接了變成我們國家的金融行庫在執行中共的紅色的不合理的政治的干預那我們國安局下一步要怎麼做他們現在個別銀行用白單就把它處理掉我覺得這不對應該回到制度處理你們有什麼進度"},{"start":6170.287,"end":6185.419,"text":"跟委員報告那個我航庫採用的KYC資料庫應該直接排除中方惡意制裁的名單怎麼排除 它是外購的這些都國外的資料庫那國安部的部分 國安部"},{"start":6186.139,"end":6211.437,"text":"個案部分國安部已經在處理那我相信委員你之前也有召開過協調會那後續如果有需要的話本局會協助因為我聽起來你沒有掌握到狀況我告訴你下禮拜金管會會邀請國內所有的金融行庫包含外商以及受險公司進行協調因為這件事情絕對不容許發生怎麼可以讓我們的金融行庫"},{"start":6212.628,"end":6227.118,"text":"用中共的資料去檢視我們國軍這不對所以下週金管會會邀請所有的金融行庫受險公司包含外商在台的來就這個KYC的資料庫建立一個"},{"start":6228.198,"end":6256.931,"text":"處理的機制那我請國安局多用點心了解一下給他們建議可以學那個道瓊啊道瓊他可以勾姬可以勾姬排除中國資料庫但是因為在中國確實還有一些詐騙洗錢那個我覺得納入無可厚非就是一般的刑事犯罪所以怎麼樣去用機制去確保這一個KYC不是執行中共的政治紅色統治常被管轄而是執行合理的KYC"},{"start":6257.671,"end":6277.331,"text":"我想這個國安局或法務部應該用點心思這樣好不好好 跟委員最後再報告一下確實銀行局在下午有邀請銀行工會跟業者來召開他們要求向第一線審查的人員要加強宣導那使用KCY資料庫的時候不可加中方惡意自查的名單納入"},{"start":6279.212,"end":6290.986,"text":"查核項目我們有掌握好我等著看下禮拜下禮拜他們建立的機制是什麼我希望是用機制而不是用個個案個案的白單這個我們台灣那麼進步了不要用這樣來處理好不好好謝謝副局長謝謝謝謝副局長謝謝定宇委員"},{"start":6306.977,"end":6326.78,"text":"好 我們接下來進行詢問委員 陳冠廷委員你好 我們請外交部部長來 林部長請"},{"start":6333.499,"end":6358.721,"text":"委員好部長好 部長今年舉行的APEC能源部長會議聯合聲明的時候他已經明確的把海底電纜納入人員韌性的版圖裡面當時的各個經濟體他有特別強盜為了要加強電力系統的彈性韌性跟穩定性現代化的電網基礎設施包含儲能系統 微電網還有海底電纜"},{"start":6359.702,"end":6387.218,"text":"那你也在週二的台歐海底電纜安全合作論壇上面你有宣布啟動國際海底電纜風險管理倡議那我要強調的是從水下的設施到通訊到電力到油電管輸線它是三大命脈第一個是我們的資料第二個是我們的電力然後第三個就是我們資本運期的三大動脈只要任何一處受損就有可能會發引發是跨境型的斷線斷電也有可能會斷電"},{"start":6388.579,"end":6409.738,"text":"所以這一次APEC的能源認訊路線跟我國提出的這個倡議其實是前後呼應彼此加成那前者是設定了區域層級的政策方向跟合作框架那後面我們是有實作面的風險的緩解那情勢共享制度改革等等所以我必須要特別這個對外交部"},{"start":6410.399,"end":6435.046,"text":"推動科技安全外交就是你是有實質內容的外交我是感到是非常的滿意我希望可以做更多這一次我們在訪問日本的時候基本上我們也都有特別提到這些相關的安全議題海底電纜的安全議題我也感受到我們駐日辦事處的同仁他們是用系統面就是說這些專業的外交官不是不僅僅是以個人因為個人是不可以大於系統的"},{"start":6435.706,"end":6462.516,"text":"所以包含這些專業的官僚跟專業的外交官基本上他們的這種網絡都非常的綿密那特別在這些相關的議題上面也有很好的掌握這一點我還是必須要特別的來表示這個相關的謝意好 那我今天想要請教的是在我們沒有辦法主辦類似像其實也不只是APEC那其實很多的重要的國際論壇那我們是要用什麼樣的方式把重要的議題"},{"start":6464.159,"end":6491.27,"text":"讓他們能夠在會議當中來去被引入進去部長可不可以簡單講一下報告委員除了雙邊的交流合作我們在國際特別是多邊的機制上面比如我們有GCTF今年是第十年目前有五個完整的會員國就是全球合作訓練倡議這個是很好的平台現在已經在全球"},{"start":6492.01,"end":6516.858,"text":"台灣 美國 日本 澳大利亞以外還去年加了加拿大那歐洲現在也有很多所謂的Franchise就是衍生的這個參與國家那剛剛講就是我們在倡議這個所謂的國際海欄的風險管理這個議題就是類似因為台灣是本身也是受害者那我們又位居在印太第一島鏈其實是最重要的通訊 電"},{"start":6520.6,"end":6543.329,"text":"傳輸都是很多是透過電纜所以這個都不是我們單獨的面對的挑戰而是區域性甚至全球性的一體特別是歐洲自從這個破落地海這邊從這幾年發生的被所謂暗船破壞或所謂的這種灰色地帶的侵擾越來越多"},{"start":6544.369,"end":6548.412,"text":"所以跟我們可以說是同樣面對這樣的威脅那這些國家集合起來特別是透過國會議員尤其是歐洲議員他們也可以一起在他們的國家來做推動所以這個是我們找到的議題另外就是像災害的防救"},{"start":6562.489,"end":6568.633,"text":"我們在這方面包括我們的消防署所衍生的我們全社會防禦任性每個國家現在都遇到類似的問題特別是在我們這個第一島鏈我們也用這樣的議題做平台去結合很多國家也通過了一些倡議包括國會的決議所以我們這次提出所謂的四大目標風險降低 資訊共享 制度改革和知識建構"},{"start":6592.829,"end":6604.378,"text":"歐洲議會他們就是歐盟的執委會也有通過一個有關於海嵐的倡議那我們跟他對接然後一起來做跨區的合作跟推動"},{"start":6605.759,"end":6623.894,"text":"非常謝謝部長日本也是一個重點日本重點我們接下來談到日本剛好我們訪日的時候是川普總統他訪日本也跟高市總理有簽署協議來去反制中國系統的武器化跟他的這些特殊管制"},{"start":6624.588,"end":6642.748,"text":"那他們為了要打造相關的供應鏈民主供應鏈他們是聯手去補這個缺口鎖定的是磁鐵 電池還有催化劇跟光學材料等衍生性的產品他是希望說打算動員政府與私部門的這個支持透過政策貿易來協同合作那這次訪日我們可以"},{"start":6643.268,"end":6664.175,"text":"感受到整個日本的對台灣的友善那特別是過去是以這個民主的價值但是現在不是只以民主的價值就如同我們剛才一直強調的它是以實質導向以經濟導向貿易導向科技導向那也符合部長你講的這個全方位對這種外交實質的外交"},{"start":6664.975,"end":6684.662,"text":"所以說我們必須要好好的利用這一個機會跟日本來確保說我們的供應鏈上面特別是在稀土遇到它可能的武器化的話我們是有機會來去參與它這樣子的合作架構剛才部長有提到的幾個合作框架下我是希望說我們能夠主動"},{"start":6685.882,"end":6705.379,"text":"主動 主動跟日方來討論那既然有這個美日的框架那台灣的角色可以是什麼部長可不可以簡單來回應一下是 陳委員所講因為台日其實臨接的國家那不只是在剛講通訊還有這個防災其實在能源上也是密切相關"},{"start":6706.46,"end":6723.227,"text":"所以我們像我們投資或採購在阿拉斯加的這個天然氣其實它不只是一個經濟議題它也是一個安全議題那我們台日之間很多這方面的合作的項目"},{"start":6724.027,"end":6730.532,"text":"透過不管是我們雙邊之間或多邊的來進行現在高市掃描首相他在先前就已經在自民黨內有很多的倡議現在他當首相當然我們也希望台日之間這個可以變成政府之間一起來推動包括去年石破茂首相到這個秘魯的APEC的時候跟我們領袖代表林信義這個執政也登對所謂的"},{"start":6753.987,"end":6781.981,"text":"災害的一個處理希望台日來合作我覺得這個確實是對雙方面都是有關那是互惠的這些議題我們找出來讓我們的總和外交不只是談這個理念相近的這些價值還是夠談到具體的安全還有經濟上面的這一些合作甚至是我們講全社會防禦任性的這個空間是非常的大"},{"start":6783.328,"end":6801.489,"text":"尤其是我們的無人機航太半導體產業它是高度依賴這些稀土的所以我想最近有南非的事件我們也可以理解到南非它自己也有類似半威脅的說法它是說它強調自己是重要稀有金屬的供應國"},{"start":6802.39,"end":6817.467,"text":"所以說它也有意升級為高科技製造鏈的關鍵節點所以說我們雖然我們也是重要的這個關鍵國家之一但是提供這些物資資源的這些自然資源的這些國家有沒有可能"},{"start":6818.38,"end":6834.981,"text":"會跟中國來做一個協調那導致我們在供應鏈的地緣政治有風險這個部分我就簡單跟部長希望說跟經濟部一定要有一個跨部會的協調機制來去了解一下他們的政策動向我跟委員馬上補充一下在就是稀土議題"},{"start":6836.483,"end":6851.613,"text":"因為這涉及到所謂的供應的安全尤其是我們要打造非紅的民主供應鏈是一個信賴的供應鏈裡面在稀土上面我們也有我本身也有發言那就是除了"},{"start":6853.554,"end":6875.543,"text":"呼應這個川普政府的倡議這個進行稀土供應鏈的合作之外我們也在積極的參與希望台灣也能夠我想這個是助人也助己對我們在半導體供應鏈上面這個稀土的供給能夠有安全的供應鏈我們請副主委就是委員會的副主委謝謝 謝謝部長那麻煩副主委"},{"start":6887.456,"end":6887.476,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6888.376,"end":6918.136,"text":"副主委好 針對中共的長臂管轄跟他的跨境鎮壓我簡單的要特別提醒一下這不僅僅是對我國的國會議員的這種侮辱但是我們還要注意一件事情就是說之前在白俄羅斯有逼客機迫降來去逮捕異議記者的事情我不知道你還有沒有印象原則上就是白俄羅斯他是在派他的這個他的空軍升空他迫使這個瑞恩航空的客機轉降到白俄首都"},{"start":6918.916,"end":6942.195,"text":"也就是說這樣子的可能性是有的所以說你必須要有一個風險的評估我們哪一些被點名的國會議員或者是重要的官員當他們出國的時候這個風險是有的有沒有經過這些不友好國家甚至是有敵意國家的領空是不是會有類似這樣的狀況出現我是提醒因為已經發生過了好 謝謝"},{"start":6944.477,"end":6963.105,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員副主委有沒有要回答沒有嗎好請回好接下來進行詢問委員徐曉新委員謝謝主席我們先請林佳龍林部長來部長請"},{"start":6973.232,"end":7001.231,"text":"部長好我想今天大家都關注的是川習會的會面在我們開會的與此同時川普跟習近平也已經有公開的會面然後也在幕僚的陪伴之下有了一個基本的對話當然記者的這些喊話他們都是講說彼此之間有很好的關係一直都有很好的關係然後大概就是簡單的問候"},{"start":7003.632,"end":7030.6,"text":"但是有幾件事情想要跟您詢問因為今天的新聞有一些消息人士表示我相信這個消息人士可能都是在美國這邊行走的記者他們的說法可能會對 可能不會對我沒有辦法把握但是我們還是得來詢問我們的外交部林部長對消息人士他們所說的一些回應"},{"start":7031.54,"end":7048.199,"text":"那麼呢可能這個我沒有自己的想法我沒有說這個消息人士講一定是對的因為他沒有具名但是在這麼關鍵的時刻我想我還是得提出來那這個是在CNN他的這個報導裡面呢他就講到就是說呢"},{"start":7048.819,"end":7070.584,"text":"儘管美方的資深官員相信川普不會在會談當中被破表態反對台灣獨立但是川普拒絕排除台灣可能被牽扯進美中貿易談判的可能性台北方面正擔心美方的支持是否動搖這是第一點我先把這個問題都講完一次再請您回覆"},{"start":7071.224,"end":7093.402,"text":"那這個所謂消息人士表示台灣正積極重新評估如何爭取川普政府站在自己這一方那面對的這個美中的雙重壓力那賴總統這個承諾包含是國防支出等等那可能不會成為頭條新聞但是會影響美台的關係那其中一個我覺得比較需要請教您的就是"},{"start":7094.022,"end":7114.747,"text":"其中一項考量是 召回現任駐美代表余大雷改派一位更具有政治手腕的外交官部分川普官員私下表示雖然余大雷獲得部分的白宮人士支持但是這位職業外交官欠缺於川普圈子有效互動的政治能量"},{"start":7115.507,"end":7135.49,"text":"那我想要先請部長幫我們說明一下有關於CNN剛剛的報導還有台美之間的關係在川習會的互動之後我們的掌握是如何那進一步的是跟您比較更有關係的就是說我們的駐美大使駐美代表會不會更換人選"},{"start":7137.302,"end":7163.619,"text":"包括委員台美政府之間的溝通管道很暢通而且也很順利在進行因為針對最近這幾件包括APEC或川習會等至於說委員提到的我們駐美的人士我們並沒有啟動任何要調整的程序目前因為美出的功能也發揮得很好"},{"start":7164.428,"end":7177.152,"text":"好所以我們沒有打算要這個召回駐美代表于大雷大使沒有目前沒有好那好謝謝那這個部長可以先請回好謝謝我先請一下這個陸委會跟經濟部好"},{"start":7186.065,"end":7210.729,"text":"那這個兩位好 那這個最近很多人關心有關於先前卓榮泰院長在大院的這個這個質詢備詢的過程當中那有談到這個 我們先請教經濟部有談到就是呢 淘寶跟拼多多兩個平台 這個電商平台如果沒有進到台灣這個落地公司的話要取消 要取消他們的這個平台"},{"start":7211.249,"end":7231.421,"text":"那請問一下經濟部這邊昨天呢就有提到就是說呢我們沒有電商的這個相關的這個選項那我想問一下在這種情況之下依照院長的指示多久會做出那撤銷淘寶以及拼多多在台灣的這個電商平台的APP的決定"},{"start":7233.239,"end":7256.801,"text":"委員好 那針對這個部分我們國際貿易署主要是在跨境這個部分加強跟海關那邊在加強查緝的這個部分沒有 我們要問查緝的事情這個是另外一個問題我問的是 院長所說的要下架淘寶跟拼多多如果他們沒有在期限之內在台灣落地那這個期限是多久"},{"start":7257.401,"end":7280.338,"text":"然後呢什麼時候如果沒有完成你們要把淘寶跟拼多多平台關掉有沒有按照院長的指示再進行報告委員我們這個部分我們會吸回再跟我們部內的相關的單位來做所以我們的行政院長卓榮泰在備詢之後沒有跟你們再進一步提到這件事情沒有再進一步的做要求沒有進一步的再提供時間點"},{"start":7282.892,"end":7307.276,"text":"這個部分我在跟我們部裡面的相關單位在做進一步的確認好 所以就是沒有打算要回我就對了還是你不知道不知道就說不知道這個部分我沒有掌握好 不知道就算了那我們問一下陸委會就是關於淘寶跟拼多多這些電商平台現在就被認為說如果沒有落地的話然後要請他們離開我想要問一下陸委會對這個事情的態度是什麼"},{"start":7308.486,"end":7333.08,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們有兩個重要的原則第一個現在境外的這個豬肉包含中國大陸在內我們還是不允許絕對不會允許任何形式的這個進口誰說允許啦對所以我是跟委員報告我們對這個原則沒有人說允許那你報告這要幹嘛那請問你可以在淘寶我問嘛你可以在淘寶跟拼多多上面買到豬肉製品然後寄到台灣嗎臨時陸委恢復主委應該清楚吧"},{"start":7333.78,"end":7362.566,"text":"可以嗎至少我個人是沒有這樣的經驗不是你個人的問題啊是你們有沒有去研究可不可以的問題啊是不可以的對嘛是不可以那不可以就不可以嘛不可以的話那就沒有辦法進來嘛沒有辦法進來的話查驗也不是你陸委會的事情也是人家這個EZ位的事嘛那請問一下我問的問題是陸委會對於這些電商平台若沒有進到台灣做公司的話那就要被取消電商平台這件事情陸委會的看法是什麼"},{"start":7363.257,"end":7370.982,"text":"我們會跟那個速發部經濟部進一步的去研擬相關的法令規定所以你們是朝向院長所說的方向就是可能要把這兩個雙平台關掉是這個意思嗎大的方針來講是這樣但CPI還是要研擬另外您剛剛講到說最近這個有一些什麼投書啊什麼異常帳號啊然後什麼認知作戰我想問一下您自己是學者出身的您覺得"},{"start":7387.674,"end":7395.927,"text":"這個美國智庫蘭德公司它有特定的比較親中的政黨政治傾向或者是這個類似這樣的情況嗎美國的蘭德公司"},{"start":7398.587,"end":7427.867,"text":"其實個別的智庫或者是個別的學者他們的立場我們是不予評論啦你不予評論那剛剛又說這個投書到這個時代雜誌的然後呢就人家就親中那有的人你就可以評論有的人就不能評論那就是說講賴清德不好的就可以評論沒有特別去提到就不能評論是這樣嗎當然不是啊我的問題是說你作為一個過去是學者你應該知道蘭德公司這家智庫是相當悠久的那我問你他對於所謂的中國大陸他有沒有特別親中的情況"},{"start":7428.887,"end":7451.278,"text":"那你不會不了解吧你的看法是什麼陸委會的見解是什麼其實以智庫本身或者是以特定學者本身他們的立場當然都有可能會隨著時局的變化有一些調整所以委員您剛所提到的那您提的應該不會是他們發布的這個報告上面會有這個認知作戰的這個問題或者是說他們是因為現在這個川子集會之前所以刻意的透過這些報告然後再來影響這個台灣或者是台灣的民眾吧"},{"start":7457.481,"end":7469.931,"text":"上面有三位這個政治科學家也是學者的名字喔 您可以看一下如果您覺得有哪一位是您想要評論說他是親中的所以他講的這個話不實在請現在就告訴我上面有名字 您看一下投影片有嗎你看啊 OK"},{"start":7479.076,"end":7505.021,"text":"這個其實我還是要再次的強調啦我們不對特定的美國的學者跟智庫有啊 你剛剛就已經對特定的智庫跟學者你已經發表了意見了呀我可以發言一下嗎你已經一直在發言我並沒有阻擋你的發言啊好 謝謝喔那可以讓我稍微說明一下下那我們的意思是說美國的智庫或美國的學者發表他們的看法然後有可能會被異常的帳號我剛剛回覆的是這一塊我回覆的主要的重點是在於會被特定的帳號渲染並且過度的延伸的解釋"},{"start":7507.742,"end":7532.861,"text":"怎麼樣在這過度的延伸解釋啊那人家就是有如果說這個智庫的學者就是有投書到時代雜誌然後他就是有說賴清德總統是regulus然後有人去把這樣子的一個新聞甚至一開始是中央社寫的然後呢去轉貼了這個中央社的報導之後就被你們說成是好像呢這個是是這個異常帳號等等的這個我覺得不實際啊我今天要討論的是蘭德公司的這一篇新聞啊就是這個報告"},{"start":7534.082,"end":7552.159,"text":"那裡面他提到的這幾個我覺得比較嚴重的部分在於說他談到了他們的建議是這邊英文中文我都把它拉出來避免你們又說什麼斷章取義之類的沒有他講說美國跟中國應該要建立一個互信的訊號"},{"start":7553.4,"end":7576.456,"text":"主要他提到具體案例是美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸永久分離也不反對和平統一中國可以重申和平統一是首選途徑闡述可行且具說服力的實際方式並明確表示動武警在反分裂國家法所規定的最極端情況下才會被視為懸賞請問一下陸委會對於蘭德公司這樣子的一個建議"},{"start":7577.156,"end":7599.253,"text":"你們的態度是站在肯定的角色還是你覺得跟你們現狀希望推進的方向是不一樣的我們陸委會還是主張中華民國的主權不是拿來被交易的並且中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬也是客觀事實所以關於蘭德公司或者是任何的智庫任何的學者發表的言論對於美國方面的建議我們都予以尊重那我們也會予以平息"},{"start":7599.963,"end":7618.729,"text":"你予以尊重歸予以尊重啊那人家的說法跟你我現在問的是說他現在的這樣子的一個對美的建議的說法跟目前我們陸委會我們的這個對美台包含是台灣自己本身的方向是一致的還是不一致的我沒有叫你評論這個人他"},{"start":7620.69,"end":7639.707,"text":"就是方向是否一致嘛就是說我們現在台灣 陸委會這邊是否認為美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸選友分離然後不反對和平統一以及中國大陸他可以做這些說法還有下一頁對不起 主席給我一點點時間把它講完不然等一下說我們只講一半"},{"start":7640.367,"end":7655.468,"text":"那它裡面 這都是關於八頁 七頁左右提到跟台灣有關的更大膽的選項 美國因為它有提供我們軍事支持所以它可以有一定的影響力限制以及可能破壞美國主張的現狀行為"},{"start":7657.751,"end":7681.18,"text":"我要問的事情不是說你對這篇報告的評論我要問的問題是我們現在陸委會的整體對兩岸之間的方向跟這篇文章提到的方向是一致的或是不一致的有部分的內容是一致的 堅持和平的這一塊那哪一部分是不一致的可以再回到前頁嗎 可以"},{"start":7683.588,"end":7711.628,"text":"比如說就是美國聲明他不支持台灣獨立這個部分我們就只能予以尊重但是不見得是我們國會的主張那這個一不反對和平同意呢這也是一樣就是說這個我們尊重所以你講清楚嘛你要不要一次把它講完就是說哪一些你們是尊重但是不同意不見得是一樣的方向我這樣講比較柔性那哪一些是你們本身就覺得我們這政策上面跟他的建議主張是一樣的方向"},{"start":7712.202,"end":7739.372,"text":"因為這有一些是假設性問題啦就是說兩岸是不是永久分離喔或者說統一的這個方式用和平的方式還是用其他的方式所以這裡面對於陸委會來講的話那我們對於是不是要永久分離來說這不是我們現在政策要討論的這個主軸那維持現狀還有中華民國 中華人民共和國互不隸屬這才是我們目前陸委會在兩岸政策上面的一個基調好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員各位請回好 接下來進行訓導委員沈伯陽委員"},{"start":7750.322,"end":7756.882,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個先有請這個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以"},{"start":7765.851,"end":7778.618,"text":"那個 副總您好那這個APAC的問題待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下這個堪稱典範"},{"start":7782.64,"end":7808.808,"text":"那這個呢 當然呢這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢他們對我寄出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題就是剛好今天有這一個川熙會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上當然是其人一鬥啦"},{"start":7809.708,"end":7825.776,"text":"但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這一個東西公布出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員"},{"start":7827.097,"end":7854.767,"text":"但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講的司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在"},{"start":7855.287,"end":7871.622,"text":"那我就發現其實坊間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情"},{"start":7872.502,"end":7891.963,"text":"所以呢不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕那所以呢一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到這個香港去嘛"},{"start":7892.623,"end":7917.361,"text":"結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到是花蓮的對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼"},{"start":7918.141,"end":7932.905,"text":"像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼"},{"start":7937.386,"end":7958.74,"text":"他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼"},{"start":7959.6,"end":7975.119,"text":"但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後他在一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為他一直他在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中他會覺得台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多"},{"start":7975.8,"end":7997.982,"text":"所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎"},{"start":7999.443,"end":8024.064,"text":"有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應"},{"start":8026.306,"end":8043.358,"text":"是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右"},{"start":8045.559,"end":8059.395,"text":"我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天 今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦"},{"start":8060.416,"end":8076.163,"text":"我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠跟各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情"},{"start":8078.044,"end":8097.018,"text":"那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道"},{"start":8097.458,"end":8122.72,"text":"然後再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險那包含了像是這個公務員啦國會議員啦等等那麼他們未來這個出國必須要更加的這個謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們"},{"start":8123.28,"end":8148.13,"text":"如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流"},{"start":8148.53,"end":8161.705,"text":"那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉喔你們既然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省管委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法"},{"start":8163.447,"end":8180.624,"text":"同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有趣交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋"},{"start":8181.545,"end":8200.775,"text":"對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我就相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平"},{"start":8201.575,"end":8224.522,"text":"他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會有一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝"},{"start":8233.129,"end":8252.826,"text":"委員好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程"},{"start":8256.129,"end":8271.796,"text":"就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家那他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事"},{"start":8272.436,"end":8292.259,"text":"我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施"},{"start":8293.722,"end":8309.305,"text":"我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這也可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來"},{"start":8310.226,"end":8338.964,"text":"而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法它就不構成引渡雖然它即使有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它"},{"start":8340.064,"end":8369.124,"text":"廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威"},{"start":8369.884,"end":8395.678,"text":"而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障"},{"start":8396.919,"end":8411.374,"text":"這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應那這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方"},{"start":8411.894,"end":8430.822,"text":"那因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了那我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的那因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行"},{"start":8431.602,"end":8453.119,"text":"還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交部來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員部長 建議外交部對於旅遊安全的這個部分這一種用政治的不文明的違反國際方式的這種"},{"start":8455.329,"end":8478.29,"text":"這種長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的這個欄位應該要有一個正面表列然後另外如果有盟國家可以公開表達反對的話我覺得對穩定國人這個其實我們兩個都剛從國外回來坦白講我還是講那句中國做這個不好啦但是我們還是要讓人民知道不用去畏懼這種恐嚇謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林楚瑩委員進行詢問"},{"start":8488.438,"end":8490.263,"text":"謝謝主席主席先有請林佳龍林部長來 部長好"},{"start":8493.567,"end":8517.846,"text":"我們先讓陸委會休息一下還好今天陸委會來的是沈副主委是不然的話我可能就要先寫公私分明好這個剛剛沈博洋沈委員有特別提到APEC那今天其實我們主要的是針對APEC之外也多加了一個當然就是中國特別長臂管轄這把手伸到這個台灣的政治人物或名人的部分但是"},{"start":8518.866,"end":8541.702,"text":"我想先請教部長的是我們知道在川習會目前正在登場當中不過在川習會之前川普先講了Taiwan is Taiwan說實話還好這個中國的長臂管轄是沒有到這個美國去啦不然他首先第一個他想要制裁或者是發出這個通緝令的應該是川普了吧因為他說Taiwan is Taiwan你怎麼看川普特別在川習會之前講了這一句話有些人認為他是對於整個我們現在亞太的區域安全"},{"start":8548.346,"end":8565.319,"text":"做了一條新的界線那您怎麼來解讀我們對於所謂川習會會涉及台灣的議題當然要密切關心但不必過度擔心因為各界也都很關心因為是不是中國會利用川習會出招"},{"start":8567.641,"end":8591.018,"text":"也說有很多的呼籲那我們跟美國政府也密切的溝通那萬一有什麼狀況我們也會一起大家有協調怎麼來因應那我想我們就用川普的話來自己呈現就是台灣是台灣你這個如果習近平要談什麼那是你的事情可是我覺得美國的政策是很明確而且一致"},{"start":8591.978,"end":8602.962,"text":"這也不太跟我們說明所以我們是對台美關係有信心那最重要的是其實美中跟美台關係可以是分開的那中國過去長期都打台灣牌來威脅利誘但是我想我們去想一種情境如果今天習近平自己提了台灣議題結果川普的回應"},{"start":8619.557,"end":8629.582,"text":"不如他期待那他是不是很沒面子所以我想習近平也有他的判斷吧當然外界關心是因為每當這種高峰會的時候各界都會很關心不過我們對於台灣跟美國的關係我們是相當穩定的是可以共同來應處任何可能來自於中國方面他的一些可能的訴求或壓力"},{"start":8647.568,"end":8661.785,"text":"好我們知道在這個114年的時候包含追加預算回來之後我們的預算呢基本上在編列的部分明年會比今年要來的多那麼當然主要的還是因為我們的國際宣傳費用"},{"start":8663.427,"end":8683.363,"text":"在這個部分在這個年度也就是2025年我們被刪除了但是2026年當然我們現在還是希望這個國際宣傳非常的重要因為真的就像川普講的台灣is Taiwan台灣要被看見喔但是我想要延伸閱讀一下因為剛剛我接在這個鋪馬委員的後面我也想問的就是APEC2026會在中國舉辦"},{"start":8686.425,"end":8688.768,"text":"就像現在中國的長臂管轄會不斷的無限延伸他今天把台灣視為他的一部分他可以怎麼樣比如說明年我們的所謂領袖代表他可不可以先發制人的把他列為所謂的懲戒名單"},{"start":8703.507,"end":8732.593,"text":"又或者是其他可能出席的官員代表也列為懲戒名單這個不是沒有喔包括我想剛剛有提到的我們的昭偉王定宇主席然後我們的沈伯洋委員甚至於過去像游錫堃院長蘇貞昌院長顧立雄當時是國安會現在是我們國防部長也就是說他可以無限延伸那麼在這個部分接下來我們再出席國際會議的時候雖然我們講到的這個部分就是"},{"start":8733.736,"end":8761.103,"text":"我們認同這個部分但是他會不會用這個方式讓台灣就此被消失或者是我們在出席的部分受到一些影響那麼請部長回答之外也請這個陸委會省副主委我先跟委員報告就是我們也是有這個當中國在去年啊MIDU APEC大會上申請要主辦明年的APEC的年會的時候我們就有要求"},{"start":8762.544,"end":8776.176,"text":"中國必須公開承諾就是要確保我們所有出席人員的安全而且平等參與的權利所以當時他們的資深官員的代表盧梅亞最後還發函給所有的會員"},{"start":8777.597,"end":8804.383,"text":"那這個事後包括當然美國啦有好的國家大家一起的支持認為我們在去年建立了一個很好的基礎因為已經有將近十幾年來中國每當APEC都企圖矮化台灣甚至兩岸之間的交涉都透過可能兩會而不是透過APEC我們的這種外交單位在進行那好 今年在韓國進行的時候我們也非常密切注意是不是被矮化比如說在我們領袖代表的街機的時候一度"},{"start":8805.143,"end":8807.505,"text":"有傳出不是由部長這個層級來接我們經過溝通韓國也最後確認是由他們的資深官員會議的主席親自到機場接機我們林信義領袖的代表"},{"start":8825.979,"end":8845.797,"text":"所以我是覺得我們密切的注意那也希望今年在韓國這個慶周的經驗是奠定在APEC正常的一個規範之下那明年到了中國他會不會給我們什麼樣的矮化或什麼出什麼小動作我們都必須做好因應的準備"},{"start":8846.397,"end":8866.614,"text":"好 那我有請神父主委其實我們跟中國的部分很多的國際會議尤其是以亞洲為主題的時候在中國舉行的機會非常多包括像什麼杭州的亞運啊等等好 現在中國出招了不知道陸委會有沒有思考到這一個部分那就是他透過懲戒名單或者是透過他們想要立案追查誰之後這個過去我們談的是長臂管轄"},{"start":8870.097,"end":8881.502,"text":"比如說在中國境外包括其他非中國的地區但是明年的APEC在中國舉行接下來中國也會舉行許多的國際會議或者是活動那麼這一招他們會不會就此變成是讓台灣出席"},{"start":8887.625,"end":8901.986,"text":"國際活動或者是國際研討會等等的方式讓它沒有機會就是台灣沒有機會被曝光或者是被亮相甚至於在那一年就缺席這個部分陸委會有沒有思考到那麼有沒有想到如何來做因應"},{"start":8903.268,"end":8926.717,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的提醒那我想剛剛已經有特別提到了其實中國大陸來講的話他還是會希望能夠正常的來跟台灣做一些交流當然有更多他們想要不正常的一些方式來統戰台灣那我們也會不斷的去提醒他們如果用這樣子的這種無理的不文明的方式來打壓我們來參與一些這個國際活動的話那麼兩岸的這個交流也一定會受到不健康的這樣的氣氛所影響而沒辦法進行"},{"start":8928.058,"end":8948.445,"text":"所以對於陸委會來講我們是料敵從嚴啦所以剛剛部長也特別提到了明年可能在中國大陸要辦APEC更甚至於有各式各樣的一些體育賽會都會在中國大陸辦那我們會不斷的來進行風險的提醒然後另外也會讓中國知道說他們在進行這樣子的一些破壞之後對於這一些在中國舉辦的活動來講都不會是一個好的包裝"},{"start":8949.125,"end":8959.35,"text":"所以會擔心嗎那麼會認為說像比如說我先舉例喔115年在外交的部分那麼當然這個部分就是南海會議啊東協及周邊組織會議太平洋島國國際論壇那個農牧類的國際組織相關會議等等然後紡洗錢類的這個討論會然後亞洲開發銀行跟中美洲國際的年會也都會在言下之意就是"},{"start":8972.896,"end":8995.39,"text":"琳瑯滿目不生美鼠各種的國際上面的交流會議那麼他現在只要鎖定會出席的人因為這一次我們看到沈伯陽委員選擇在APEC之前做這樣的發布那麼你們認為這個部分是不是就是有計劃性的鎖定未來在我們可能出席的會議當中製造所謂的心理戰"},{"start":8996.391,"end":9025.691,"text":"那麼甚至於是輿論戰那麼剛剛主席王定宇委員特別提到的就是說我們必須要有一個明確的宣示雖然他沒有這種牆壁管轄的權利但是回到中國境內的時候包括這一次沈伯陽委員他的這個發布是透過重慶的公安部門那麼言下之意是落地之後就會有危險這個部分我不會第一時間要求陸委會給答案但是相關的我們國家的這種包括國安局或者是相關的"},{"start":9027.691,"end":9053.139,"text":"會議當中是不是要把這個東西成為未來在明年115年度當中我們出席國際會議或者是國際交流在中國的時候一個重點的項目非常謝謝委員的提醒那首先就是剛剛你有提到說這次沈委員他被檢舉的是在重慶這其實就是一個矮話因為他用地方的這個公安的系統來去去懲治我們的這個國會議員這個某種程度來講已經是有精心的包裝了"},{"start":9054.079,"end":9068.677,"text":"再來第二個的話就是我們也會去建議或者說我們也會去設法突破這樣的情況舉個例子來講比如說非常有意義的一些國際交流我們可以主動來舉辦像這兩天我們看到說關於海底電纜的一些議題然後有組成了福爾摩沙的論壇在台灣來做舉辦"},{"start":9070.839,"end":9086.862,"text":"所以我們不會去跟這個中國用這樣子的這種方式去跟他做零和的這個拼鬥跟這個競爭但是我們也會用更加的其他的這樣子的這個方法來去尋求我們在國際上面能夠盡量的被國際社會給看見好所以呢最後剛好剩下十幾"},{"start":9087.463,"end":9106.285,"text":"十幾秒的時間我想要提醒的就是其實對於中國現在當然就是昨天我也特別詢問了國安局長蔡明彥蔡局長他特別提到這是法律戰認知戰跟心理戰的一個部分那麼對於這個部分因為接下來還有一些其他出席的他可能就不是政治人物不是民意代表"},{"start":9106.766,"end":9131.46,"text":"他可能就是一般出席會議的相關的人士那麼在這裡如何確保他們的安全之外如何在輿論戰跟心理戰之內我們也要做一個回防的動作這個部分我想也是接下來陸委會必須要有所準備的沒有問題 我們也會提醒我們另一位副主委處委要小心好 對 公私分明好 謝謝林楚瑩委員 副主委請回好 接下來進行訓導委員馬文君委員"},{"start":9150.355,"end":9151.816,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長林教宏部長"},{"start":9167.717,"end":9182.9,"text":"部長早安 部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者"},{"start":9184.301,"end":9208.38,"text":"高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個"},{"start":9212.203,"end":9239.544,"text":"可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話"},{"start":9241.886,"end":9263.568,"text":"部長怎麼看報告委員 個別的學者專家或者投書 我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到 確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見 什麼是"},{"start":9264.108,"end":9286.233,"text":"我們政府對政府之間的關係至於說多元的意見也有不同的反應 針對這些有一些是基於擔心 希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了"},{"start":9287.369,"end":9301.415,"text":"因為其實是我們把它強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在它已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管期刊也好說法也好可是我們現在因為它一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的"},{"start":9309.199,"end":9325.265,"text":"格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是"},{"start":9325.845,"end":9332.069,"text":"可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎"},{"start":9356.021,"end":9360.502,"text":"一個當然委員提到確實啦我們怎麼樣就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估啦應處的時候那至於說個案我是不予評論那我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些"},{"start":9378.467,"end":9386.382,"text":"投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意"},{"start":9387.148,"end":9395.816,"text":"所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是"},{"start":9410.189,"end":9414.273,"text":"哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的"},{"start":9434.153,"end":9452.792,"text":"這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常的友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣"},{"start":9454.474,"end":9457.636,"text":"然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦"},{"start":9481.761,"end":9491.308,"text":"所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了"},{"start":9511.421,"end":9521.87,"text":"這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的"},{"start":9524.755,"end":9541.801,"text":"對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經"},{"start":9544.502,"end":9564.33,"text":"談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告"},{"start":9565.64,"end":9567.421,"text":"我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經"},{"start":9583.249,"end":9586.854,"text":"是已經快要拋空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個"},{"start":9599.149,"end":9603.913,"text":"比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰"},{"start":9616.121,"end":9620.445,"text":"你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是"},{"start":9644.183,"end":9651.289,"text":"適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量"},{"start":9661.937,"end":9679.751,"text":"可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為"},{"start":9686.616,"end":9692.639,"text":"或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公佈我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公佈出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄"},{"start":9713.63,"end":9717.154,"text":"現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的"},{"start":9729.807,"end":9734.249,"text":"那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊"},{"start":9746.215,"end":9766.291,"text":"那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟六十多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟六十多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這六十幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈"},{"start":9769.912,"end":9784.413,"text":"我們內部都有針對暴龍國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法復讀條例或當地是不是有法律因為PPC兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因"},{"start":9785.474,"end":9810.822,"text":"去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過"},{"start":9811.707,"end":9818.551,"text":"像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布"},{"start":9837.823,"end":9852.015,"text":"經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然"},{"start":9852.756,"end":9855.699,"text":"我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警"},{"start":9873.278,"end":9879.082,"text":"有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是其實美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為"},{"start":9902.258,"end":9913.3,"text":"應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做法好不好好 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員 各位請回好 接下來進行詢答的委員是賴思寶委員謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的林部長來 部長請謝謝"},{"start":9937.192,"end":9944.334,"text":"林部長我想請教APEC明年在大陸是不是對我們要不要參加要"},{"start":9945.131,"end":9972.448,"text":"一定參加嘛這是我們的權利平等參加一定參加你會不會覺得因為APEC我看參加的這個領袖高官會基本上都是國家的領導人嘛就是總統啦 主席啊或者是總理之類的嘛那我們長期被矮化啦老實講對台灣是非常不公平的啦但是也沒有辦法因為國際限時嘛那"},{"start":9975.414,"end":10002.342,"text":"問題是我們能不能爭取到再往上突破一點比如說卸任的總統副總統用這樣子來取代現任的總統副總統我們有沒有在努力這一方面不是只有企業界的現在都找企業界的當然林新立當過行政院副院長這個還講得過去可是畢竟只是行政院副院長他如果是副總統當過副總統那就不一樣了"},{"start":10003.982,"end":10020.886,"text":"其他世界國家都是國家領袖我們應該努力一下看是不是我們的當然是最好是現任總統副總統但是卸任的也可以如果以來講的話從這個角度來 林部長要不要回答一下是 我們會努力短期內很難做到的"},{"start":10028.134,"end":10033.338,"text":"如果大家都很支持我們當然支持啊你能夠信任總統這個耐心的去我們更支持啊對不對所以你現在講我就拉回來講一句話啦川普講說台灣是台灣喔這個大家當然很振奮啦任何人任何國家對台灣好的我們都支持台灣就是台灣這到底什麼意思這到底什麼意思"},{"start":10055.083,"end":10061.824,"text":"台灣是台灣 中國是中國吧那就是一邊一國這是委員講的啦就是說美中的談判不要就是一定要跟台灣議題掛鉤啦這個意思啦不是 你要知道他全文嘛他的全文後面他說台灣有晶片廠商去美國投資這個才是重點所以他可以自己決定不要透過誰決定 自己決定他重點放在生理的角度來大家都了解嘛"},{"start":10084.709,"end":10096.571,"text":"這個川普他是一個生理人他談世界的國際大事也是用生理的角度在談所以講台灣是台灣後面你要把全文全部讀完讀完就是還你台灣的有晶片商來美國投資它整個才是一個complete如果你過度的解讀當然如果你要這樣講的話"},{"start":10109.534,"end":10114.017,"text":"那我們可以問下一步啊如果你把他承認說這一邊那個的話那請他承認台灣做得到嗎請問外交部長要不要跟美國提出要求既然這麼支持台灣請你承認我們有啊 美國有制定台灣關係法關係法跟建交啦我講的是承認是建交啦不管跟中華民國建交也好跟台灣建交也好不管什麼名稱都好我們都支持啊"},{"start":10135.435,"end":10148.921,"text":"對不對 所以這個來看的話不是 這個來看很清楚的來看他這是深利人講的話深利人講的話有時候典山倒市 改來改去明明要課中國大陸100%的關稅後來慫掉了也沒有了對不對 也沒有了變來變去最後一個問題就是我們現在努力了半天外交部長努力了半天其實講起來我們希望參加國際的組織"},{"start":10164.887,"end":10191.276,"text":"中藥的越來越少連IKEA這個也沒有對不對連那個WHO的WHA做個觀察員都沒有一直倒退 參加的名稱最多的就是Chinese Taipei不然就是Chinese TaipeiAPEC Chinese Taipei不然就是WTO的台澎金馬獨立關稅領域還有最糟糕的是什麼亞洲開發銀行的"},{"start":10193.277,"end":10216.276,"text":"中國台北 或者台北 中國這個裡面唯一用ROC的是亞非農村發展組織這個東西非常少的組織國際上重視的 你們外交部常常講我實質外交幾乎全部都是 三分之二以上都用錢你是台北 這個名稱你滿意嗎"},{"start":10220.191,"end":10239.66,"text":"因為這個是我們當時參加APEC的會籍的名稱嘛是嘛但是我們全世界我們也參加目前統計我們就46個有正式會員的國際組織其中全台北占19個還有其他的很多元有沒有中華民國也有啊幾個幾個告訴我四個四個要台灣的幾個"},{"start":10245.799,"end":10255.954,"text":"也是四個四個 台灣的四個你不是有四十幾個嗎怎麼會有19個還有剛剛講的啊比如說那個關稅領域也是一個啊其他的方式都有啊這個加起來不到46個啦"},{"start":10257.691,"end":10264.497,"text":"三分之二都是用潛力是台配啦這個東西我覺得你們要努力在追求說看到川普這樣子大家很興奮的之前努力爭取國際組織正民化如果要的話正民化把它往前推最少通通變成除了中華民國除了台灣以外通通是潛力是台配啦"},{"start":10282.15,"end":10289.751,"text":"好歹這樣子吧對不對好 謝謝謝謝賴時保委員 謝謝委員各位請回接下來進行詢問委員是范雲委員謝謝召委先請陸委會副主委來 沈副主委委員好"},{"start":10309.941,"end":10327.786,"text":"陸委會副主委早安我想我們今天到這兒其實很多委員都是關心的跨境鎮壓的議題剛剛我們也已經討論到其實他現在沈博洋委員是政治人物但是這一起事件我們看到的他不是單一的個案"},{"start":10328.286,"end":10351.861,"text":"因為我們除了政治人物像我們那個昭偉過去也被公告過那現在沈博洋這個是立案那其實我們的軍公教裡面軍已經據說也已經上榜了那公的話以司法體系的話檢察官那只要執行國家的法令跟國安相關的那也可能上榜"},{"start":10352.401,"end":10366.637,"text":"那未來就是叫那這一次還有推動民防的公民團體也被捲入所以真的是讓大家覺得不只是言論自由那工作權"},{"start":10367.778,"end":10387.564,"text":"人身安全都受到威脅我想講的是要感謝周偉今天我們國會有這個報告因為別的國會早就在關注這個問題今年7月我受邀參加美國國會跨黨派議員提出的跨國鎮壓政策法案草案的聽證會"},{"start":10389.284,"end":10404.51,"text":"很榮幸做一個台灣國會議員在那裡分享我們的國家的經驗我當時舉的是我們蕭美琴準總統還有沈伯陽在網路上受到的中國網軍的各種攻擊其實跨國鎮壓已經發生"},{"start":10407.751,"end":10436.061,"text":"那當然就是不是只有美國國會那他是在準備立法關注他們的而且看到的都是中共加拿大去年就通過反外國干預法他們的國會明確把外國勢力的騷擾恐惡等行為視為刑事犯罪而且要求該國建立外國影響力註冊那當然我們也知道這個很多主要是針對中共或中國那英國的國會"},{"start":10437.401,"end":10460.977,"text":"今年也舉辦了公聽會聽證會他除了跨黨派的聽證會之外英國國會完成完整調查要求政府制定跨國鎮壓的明確定義建立受害者通報機制完善數據收集監測機制建立跨國互助機制我現在是想問副主委"},{"start":10462.299,"end":10486.6,"text":"今天外交部的報告也有講到自由之家的一些統計就是過去10年1,219件跨國鎮壓那發動的主要來自中國中共的占22%算是最大國所以台灣當然現在它過去可能是針對譬如說瑞典籍的香港人等等或者是在美國籍的華人現在針對的是我們中華民國的國民"},{"start":10489.182,"end":10501.193,"text":"以自由之家的因應做法說最好的做法是要承認威脅提升執法認知提供主動保護您覺得我們台灣在這三方面做得如何"},{"start":10502.052,"end":10529.305,"text":"非常謝謝委員您提供非常多因為目前看起來好像只有民進黨籍的特別關切這個問題是非常謝謝委員那我也想舉一個例子來講比如說中共他也想要利用2758號決議文來打壓台灣在國際上的生活空間我之所以舉這個例子是因為我們確實有看到很多的國家有注意到這些事情那麼這個跨境鎮壓剛剛您所提到的這些例子都非常棒但是我們看到2758號舉這個例子來講我們也非常希望台灣自己本身的國會也可以提出一個譴責"},{"start":10530.365,"end":10545.071,"text":"所以包含像這一次沈委員的案子如果說我們台灣能夠不分黨派一致的來表達對於中共這個行為的不滿意的話那麼將會達到一定的這樣的團結跟嚇阻作用所以我們也非常希望這個議題可以再謝謝喔那我也希望喔如您講的我們跨黨派提出譴責那我也希望比照英國國會喔如果我們跨黨派沒有譴責的話行政部門是不是能夠更主動的保護喔那你是不是給我20秒喔就是那個外交部長喔"},{"start":10558.197,"end":10572.533,"text":"林部長還有我們的國安的陳副局長跟黃市長因為我希望就是說我們比照英國國會跨黨陸委會主委您也先留步一下最後一頁是說今天非常多的事情"},{"start":10573.254,"end":10597.512,"text":"我們如果以英國國會的標準來講的話我想前兩項部分跨境鎮壓明確定受害者通報機制這應該可以是陸委會做的完善數據蒐集和監測機制是不是國安單位那後面三個因為這都是涉及到我們海外公民國人在海外的安全建立跨國互助機制我看外交部的報告寫得很好都有在做或準備做"},{"start":10598.172,"end":10617.592,"text":"還有協助駐外單位的監測並評估風險提供國人警示國家名單我覺得如果加拿大美國英國都已經跨黨派在做這樣的工作的話那是不是能夠請剛剛有回答蠻多的就是在做我想這是一個重要的外交工作"},{"start":10618.052,"end":10644.425,"text":"因為不能夠只限縮在中華民國我們自己的努力有這麼多國家在努力是不是可以協助我們法務國安就是說相關的建立跨國互助機制把這幾項工作還有法務部我們跟加拿大 英國 美國相比我們是不是有更要完善的部分能夠一起有一個跨部會的協調會議完善這幾項工作不知道部長還有幾位可以同意嗎"},{"start":10645.505,"end":10657.395,"text":"報告委員 我們會跟入委會邀集相關的部會單位來協調怎麼樣分工合作好 那個次長司法我知道你們也有在做一些跨國的努力了可以嗎"},{"start":10658.377,"end":10687.375,"text":"好 我們會來演繹 會跟外交部跟陸委會來搭配那那個國安的副局長 陳副局長可以嗎我們也會跟外交部一起來努力好 謝謝 那陸委會我想這是兩邊 兩者要合作那請問部長可以多久內我覺得不只是跨部會 還需要立法院一起加油我們一起跨黨派我們立法院 王定義委員會促成跨黨派一起努力今天這個我想報告是一個很好的開始那我們要追上其他國家國會的跨黨派努力 好嗎"},{"start":10687.995,"end":10702.271,"text":"那部長請問多久內可以給本席跟外交國防委員會一個報告書面報告我們一般是兩個月給他們兩個月 這樣兩個月可以嗎好 可以好 謝謝 謝謝召委我們是兩週內還兩個月那個更正 兩週內讓你更高興一點"},{"start":10707.808,"end":10720.785,"text":"好沒關係我們另外約定從你們約定那個今天因為詢問法務部的人比較少本席希望我們法務部就長臂管轄在境內附和的因為我剛才聽到你們報告有講到跟蹤騷擾但如果在網路上"},{"start":10723.408,"end":10742.289,"text":"水軍公司這種組織化的去進行負荷遂行中共的這一意旨的他的法律上的責任什麼我們也希望在後續的報告上可以看到法務部更完整的報告好接下來進行巡禮委員林益君委員林益君委員林益君委員不在接下來進行巡禮委員邱志偉委員"},{"start":10753.757,"end":10757.64,"text":"謝主席 先請國安局副局長 陳副局長來 陳副局長請其實 沈伯陽不只一個 我們都是沈伯陽們中國對沈伯陽委員發布這種非常惡意的"},{"start":10779.94,"end":10805.689,"text":"然後你們國安局的研判他只是言語恫嚇還是有可能有實際的作為譬如說這個蕭副總統還沒就任之前在捷克 捷克我們還有住處都可能發生這種蓄意的衝撞那他不可能 我認為他不可能只是說說語一定有具體的作為"},{"start":10807.076,"end":10835.387,"text":"譬如說這個像我們如果在國外國會外交或者需要轉機只要到沒有住處的國家是不是會比較風險會比較高一點譬如說我們在香港有沒有住處在香港有沒有住處香港有沒有住處啦沒有沒有那轉機會不會有風險因為現在香港是一國一制"},{"start":10836.414,"end":10860.991,"text":"國安局的研判轉機會不會有風險會所以我們都不能去香港轉機對不對好 那如果沒有住處的國家我們外交部沒有住處的國家是風險會比較高一點會不會比較高是比較高我聽不到你的回答你那麼正面表列比較危險的國家"},{"start":10864.287,"end":10882.389,"text":"你這邊你的報告裡面這應處作為我覺得這不痛不癢根本好像毫無作為什麼強固國內安全最主要我們在國外怎麼保護我們的人身安全我們透過國際協力有我的力量國安局有沒有相關的具體作為"},{"start":10886.105,"end":10902.758,"text":"這部分我們會跟我們友軍單位來妥善的來處理來保護我們國人在國外的人身安全你這個回答太抽象我根本聽不懂你在說什麼好 那請這個外交部林部長謝謝委員委員好 這個我們有駐外管處的部分可能要再通令外管"},{"start":10913.86,"end":10932.287,"text":"特別針對這個中國的這個長臂管轄我們有相關的如果不幸一旦發生比如說被拘留或者轉機的時候被他拘留我們各外管一定有相關的SOB處置作為目前外交部有沒有相關的這個"},{"start":10932.881,"end":10951.444,"text":"有 我在去年六月就很重視這個問題我們開過很多會針對這種樣態發生的時候怎麼應處那當然我們也有前面就先溝通嘛因為這涉及到中共要引用的法當地怎麼樣回應除了所謂的引渡法這個以外就是司法互助台還包括他們對一中的解釋"},{"start":10952.165,"end":10976.585,"text":"以及其他對於兩邊是不是有共同的刑法對這些部分的一個處置當然因為這不是法律而已這也涉及到到時候中共可能會施壓萬一發生如果所以你要讓所有國人包括立法委員有相關的風險意識你必須要做一些燈號管制像旅遊風險旅遊風險去警戒你要把另外的政治風險也用燈號來顯示"},{"start":10978.146,"end":11006.175,"text":"所以我就看這個是紅色哇 這個可能你就是不建議前往政治風險極高這個是一個原則但是因為如果涉及到國家對國家那麼全面性我們當然也會考量到你旅遊風險另外再擴大一個政治風險旅遊風險都有每個國家都有旅遊風險的建議嘛 對不對紅色 藍色對 社交人身安全對 那你能不能多加一個政治風險"},{"start":11008.337,"end":11020.952,"text":"我們當然會有評估的指標不過就是說怎麼樣反映在我們的警示的燈號這個我們會來持續研究另外15秒鐘就是台韓關係"},{"start":11022.694,"end":11036.945,"text":"民間交流非常的暢旺 對不對大家都知道什麼叫Blackpink大家都知道這個演唱會那個交流的票很貴生活啊這個受到韓國文化很深影響很多人也喜歡到韓國旅遊"},{"start":11038.306,"end":11060.092,"text":"所以這個部分 我們跟韓國的官方的關係國會的交流 政黨的交流 或者政府之間的交流比不上台日關係台日關係也不是現在一觸可及經過數十年的累積我覺得台韓有很多成長的空間現在韓國的國際地緣政治跟地緣經濟跟過去不一樣 哪裡不一樣"},{"start":11061.152,"end":11073.922,"text":"他面臨到北韓的威脅跟我們一樣面對中國的威脅他的經濟過去比較親中但是現在呢中國用他的低價取消讓韓國的這個產業也深受打擊跟我們台灣產業一樣"},{"start":11075.532,"end":11079.475,"text":"所以我們應該要組成一個東亞國家的台日韓經濟安全合作促進會特別是台韓關係我們有很大的成長空間但需要戰略這部分再請部長能夠多加重視好 我們來努力謝謝 好 各位請回"},{"start":11095.626,"end":11118.777,"text":"接下來進行訓導委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在黃人委員黃人委員黃人委員不在牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在"},{"start":11119.861,"end":11132.055,"text":"以登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳永康委員林益君委員黃婕委員黃仁委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面"},{"start":11138.018,"end":11162.245,"text":"及口頭諮詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆另有約定期限當然範圍是一個月從其所定那本席這邊加兩件事情請列入記錄第一個我們法務部以及我們調查局就"},{"start":11162.825,"end":11181.274,"text":"在地協力者對於中國長臂管轄跨境脅迫鎮壓的這些在地協力者的樣態涉及法律的我們現在不是講呼籲而是涉及我國法律規範的樣態及法律責任以及我國的執法的能力"},{"start":11182.294,"end":11197.265,"text":"請予以明確給一份報告給本委員會他在實體的生活上跟監騷擾或者進行相關的組織集結或者在網路上有公司有組織有水軍公司等等"},{"start":11198.125,"end":11218.003,"text":"進行稅刑或附和中國這樣子的長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的情形我覺得我們司法單位不教而殺為之虐必須明確化他的法律責任我們國安法第二條第一項是七年以上重罪請適度的有效的實行我國的法律主權第二"},{"start":11220.004,"end":11245.083,"text":"對於這一個旅行風險的警示也請我們外交部進速來擬定相關的計畫由盟國家來聲援譴責中國這種不文明魯莽的做法違反人權的做法也應該有具體的一個成效好那剛才我補充說明牛許廷委員有素面質詢有五位好本日會議到此結束大家辛苦散會"}]}},{"id":"16992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16992","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528eeb9b513302bbc7034f7cda26dcb539f8c15c1468241555469da98b32a9db58855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-30T08:31:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T11:50:00+08:00","duration":11918,"影片長度":"03:18:38","委員發言時間":"08:31:22 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請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會 出席委員已出法定人數現在開始開會 請議事員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1749.656,"end":1767.564,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期財政委員會第四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百二十四年十月二十三日星期四九時至十二十八分地點群雄樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十三人列席委員葉元之委員等八人請教委員寬恆委員一人"},{"start":1769.565,"end":1788.747,"text":"列席官員中央銀行總裁楊金榮暨所屬單位主管財經資訊公司董事長林國良主席林昭吉委員施名報告四項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二 邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告並備質詢"},{"start":1790.869,"end":1820.229,"text":"經中央銀行總裁楊金榮提出報告後 藉由委員林德福等16人提出質詢均經中央銀行楊總裁 財經資訊公司林董事長及相關人員予以答覆決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢及未及答覆或請補充資訊 請中央銀行一週內以書面答覆為另要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員羅明財所讀書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 並請中央銀行以書面答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1823.251,"end":1849.168,"text":"在场委员未足法定人数那我们议事录暂不确定我们请议事人员宣读今日议程邀请金融监督管理委员会彭主任委员金融中央银行法务部内政部警政署就虚拟资产服务法草案及其相关执法修订计建立完善监理架构之进程进行专题报告并被质询宣读完毕"},{"start":1850.495,"end":1877.101,"text":"好 那我們先來介紹今天的這個與會的官員金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金榮主委銀行局局長童振章證券期貨局局長張振山保險局局長王立慧檢察局局長賴新國"},{"start":1881.089,"end":1905.771,"text":"中央銀行副總裁朱美麗業務局局長謝鳳英法務部法制司司長洪嘉源檢察司主任檢察官劉怡婷內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長陳世煌"},{"start":1909.451,"end":1914.281,"text":"財團法人中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心董事長簡立中總經理陳立青"},{"start":1925.751,"end":1949.492,"text":"今日議程安排邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融中央銀行法務部內政部警政署就虛擬資產服務法草案及其相關執法修訂及建立完善監理架構之進程進行專題報告那以下我們就是請金管會還有中央銀行做報告就好了那我們現在先請金管會彭主委進行專題報告"},{"start":1954.403,"end":1979.756,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進媒體朋友 大家早安承蒙貴委員會邀請本會就虛擬資產服務法草案及其相關執法修訂及建立完善監理架構之進程提出專案報告本會對於具金融投資或支付性質虛擬資產之管理主要參考國際趨勢以洗錢防治及打擊資恐為監理基礎分四階段納管"},{"start":1980.396,"end":1996.262,"text":"目前已經進行到第三階段於114年9月22日公佈9家登記至VASP業者第四階段系推動VASP專法立法管理專法草案於6月27日送行政院審議草案說明如下"},{"start":1997.749,"end":2017.009,"text":"條文條文草案內容結構包括總則虛擬資產服務商同業工會穩定必發型及管理管理與監督罰則及負責等七個章節以下就規範重點說明一對VASP的管理VASP的許可規範包括不同種類VASP的許可要求"},{"start":2017.85,"end":2038.615,"text":"VASP需為專營金融機構得兼營VASP組織形式名稱使用資本額營業保證金及負責人與業務人員資格條件等加以規範二VASP是營運共通管理規範包括財務要求內控內基制度資安委外資料保密以及資訊公開與記錄保存等規範"},{"start":2040.916,"end":2059.145,"text":"VASP之差異管理部分對交換商資交換資訊公開平台商資上下架審查保管商資保管義務及承銷商資資訊公開等規定對穩定幣發行與管理系由本會與中央銀行共同嚴定重點如下將價值錨定法定貨幣之虛擬資產視為穩定幣"},{"start":2062.527,"end":2080.087,"text":"納管並定義為只表彰與單一或多個法定貨幣之價值連結以維持其價值穩定之虛擬資產發行穩定幣應先向主管機關申請許可境外發行之穩定幣應取得主管機關同意使得在我國VESPA交易"},{"start":2081.584,"end":2089.008,"text":"更因設置與維持十足準備資產定期查核角逐足額準備金申報穩定並發行相關資料及資訊揭露等"},{"start":2092.867,"end":2113.272,"text":"三 市場不公正交易之處理 虛擬資產之發行或交易不得有資訊虛偽 詐欺 隱匿或其他足以致他人誤信之行為並明定不得意圖影響虛擬資產交易價格 意圖造成交易活絡之表象 操縱行為等VASP專法草案及相關執法推動的進程"},{"start":2115.578,"end":2135.09,"text":"本草案報行政院審查前已召開過三場大型座談會辦理超過20場次溝通會議說明並於6月27號報行政院審查行政院已於7月25號及9月26號邀集相關單位召開會議討論本會將配合行政院審查程序儘速積極辦理"},{"start":2137.082,"end":2153.167,"text":"有關VASP專法的相關執法部分未來專法通過後須擬定八個授權執法其中有七個涉及VASP管理一個涉及穩定幣相關執法說明如下一 虛擬資產服務商設置標準二 虛擬資產服務商管理辦法三 虛擬資產服務商負責人與業務人員管理規則"},{"start":2157.808,"end":2174.956,"text":"四 虛擬資產服務商建立內部控制制度處理準則五 虛擬資產服務商作業委託他人處理內部作業制度及程序辦法六 虛擬資產賬戶及疑似不法或顯著異常交易管理辦法七 虛擬資產服務商同業"},{"start":2175.936,"end":2195.805,"text":"同業工會業務管理規則8 穩定幣發行許可及管理辦法主要規範申請許可之發行人資格條件最低實收資本額申請程序穩定幣種類運用場景廢紙許可適由準備經資產之設置與定期查核穩定幣發行與贖回程序等規範"},{"start":2197.026,"end":2221.624,"text":"四 完善虛擬資產市場之監理架構現行FASB監理是剛剛提到第四階段的第三階段主要是依據113年11月30日生效之提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員洗錢房子登記辦法規定管理服役搭配工會自律之機制達到強化業者內控及提升業務監理強度之目的"},{"start":2222.83,"end":2239.501,"text":"推動VASP專法監理效益與影響一提升VASP產業秩序與交易人保護專法實施後管理責任將由洗錢房制提升至特許事業的全面健全營運與市場秩序管理管理範疇將更加周延"},{"start":2240.562,"end":2268.624,"text":"現行專法草案定有資本額 營業保證金 退場機制防止市場不公正交易及交易人保護及財業物健全經營之規定對現行洗房對於相對於現行洗房制度之監理架構及相對人保護將更為完整二 穩健推動穩定幣的發行與管理三 提供VASP業者發展之彈性本會對VASP的監理器材循序漸進 省剩友好之態度推動"},{"start":2269.505,"end":2282.838,"text":"考量未來可能發展出新型態服務專法草案第六條以明定虛擬資產業務包括其他金主管機關核定之虛擬資產服務未來將視市場狀況法尊程度國際管理趨勢再行研議開放"},{"start":2284.215,"end":2312.329,"text":"三 落實金融檢查完善風險管理專案檢查部分目前加速在112年4家113年6家114年12家未來專法通過後持續透過金融檢查強化VASP財務業務遵法程度落實風險管理保障交易人權益加強打擊虛擬資產詐騙部分現行依據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例已賦予VASP與金融機構相同之主詐義務"},{"start":2314.079,"end":2341.566,"text":"此外本會議將持續精進虛擬資產主詐措施嚴提詐欺犯罪危害條例之修正建議增訂金融機構與VASP之間的異業召會機制異業聯防通報機制及異業情資分析機制等虛擬資產系發展快速之新興業態與市場各國除積極發展相關產業亦透過制定法規強化監理以促進產業健全與風險防控"},{"start":2343.871,"end":2365.156,"text":"我國在虛擬資產領域具有一定技術能力相關基礎建設完善本會秉持安全與發展並進的態度推動VASP產業之發展與監理希望能夠加強對業者監理促進市場健全保障交易人權益並兼顧產業發展提升我國業者的國際競爭力以上報告 敬請各位委員會議指教 謝謝"},{"start":2366.892,"end":2380.694,"text":"好 谢谢彭主委我们先介绍一下我们到场的委员林德福委员好 我们接下来请中央银行进行专题报告"},{"start":2410.631,"end":2422.368,"text":"今天前來貴委員會報告專題自感榮幸以下請就以本行業務有關之穩定幣監管提出報告 敬請指教"},{"start":2424.889,"end":2442.606,"text":"貨幣體系的歷史以及其在經濟中的角色是一段不斷演進的故事近年來貨幣體系的技術創新帶來支付方式的改變也為我們一向熟悉的金融與經濟體系的運作帶來不確定性"},{"start":2446.793,"end":2475.221,"text":"其中有關於穩定幣的發展就是一個故事穩定幣是一種在區塊鏈上運作的虛擬資產單一法幣價值連結的穩定幣以美元或其他穩定幣其他法幣既有一對一的兌換關係並且具有支付功能是虛擬市場的主要交易媒介"},{"start":2476.261,"end":2487.472,"text":"由於穩定幣既有可點對點直接支付速度快、成本低、24小時交易等優點穩定幣已經從虛擬資產逐漸進入實體的經濟例如用於消費支付及用戶之間的轉帳"},{"start":2499.967,"end":2509.918,"text":"穩定幣應既有支付的功能所以如果有市場壓力造成價格偏離面值可能會影響現有支付與金融體系的運作加以虛擬市場即是詐欺洗錢等揮發活動頻傳"},{"start":2518.727,"end":2527.897,"text":"穩定幣可能被用作詐騙洗錢之功績因此應以適當監管目前全球主要國家已陸續將穩定幣納入監管"},{"start":2531.636,"end":2547.969,"text":"目前主要國家對於穩定幣的監理架構主要可分為兩類一是直接訂定穩定幣的專法如美國的天才法案"},{"start":2548.749,"end":2571.556,"text":"另一則是訂定心理資產法案其中包括穩定幣相關規範如歐盟的MICA法案跟目前我們的主管機關金管會所訂定的這一個架構即是我們現在講的這一類那我們很非常緊要的介紹這兩個"},{"start":2574.565,"end":2576.166,"text":"主要的法案那在接下來談到我國穩定幣的監理因為有很多我們目前相關的監理的一些概念是跟這個兩個法案的精神非常類似的"},{"start":2596.241,"end":2615.396,"text":"美國的天才法案是在今年7月由美國總統川普正式簽署成為法例將支付型穩定幣納管其中一個非常重要的部分是花型人不得支付任何形式之利息或收益"},{"start":2616.391,"end":2619.093,"text":"至於如果談到這個天才法案它的規範它最主要的是規範支付型穩定幣的發行跟初級市場而有關於支付型穩定幣之上架以及次級市場保管等業務則納入另外一個法案就是所謂的數位資產市場清晰法案"},{"start":2646.648,"end":2656.455,"text":"來管理至於歐盟的MICA法案是在比較早2023年的5月就通過了其中在虛擬資產納管的一個部分就是我們今天會談到的一個穩定幣"},{"start":2671.638,"end":2685.287,"text":"至於我們在這所談到的穩定幣的性質它就跟我們現在大家非常熟悉的電子支付是一樣的花型能限制為信貸機構或電子貨幣機構需要遵守準備資產要求贖回資訊揭露"},{"start":2694.134,"end":2714.609,"text":"資產契格等規範另為降低穩定幣被作為價值的儲藏而花生存款流失的風險MECA法案規定花行人及家民資產服務商不得支付穩定幣持有人利息或任何形式的收益"},{"start":2716.249,"end":2719.672,"text":"最後我們很簡單的去談到目前我們監理架構的一個特性它其實就跟我們剛才談到的兩個法案美國跟MECA 歐盟這個部分非常的類似有一些相關的規定"},{"start":2742.509,"end":2751.395,"text":"那麼在過去一段時間或者是現在或是未來我們都會跟金管會共同研提跟穩定幣相關的議題"},{"start":2754.517,"end":2760.603,"text":"那有關於相關國外法案的重點規範我們已經提供給主管機關參考至於跟央行比較相關的規範我們有兩點特別提出來做說明一個是準備資產的相關規範"},{"start":2776.978,"end":2785.084,"text":"穩定幣的花型是涉及向不特定大眾吸收資金以現行電子支付之儲藏款是來自不特定大眾繳交的資金類似經作為支付的用途"},{"start":2793.59,"end":2820.505,"text":"为了保障用户资金安全我们的稳定币花型应该比照电子支付机构达到一定金额的时候准备资产的一部分需提存于本行的准备金其余的部分则可用于存款或者购买高品质高流动性金融资产如短期债券或票件等"},{"start":2822.236,"end":2845.041,"text":"那穩定幣的準備資產值呢是大於或等於花形的穩定幣金額以增加市場的信心並防範擠兌保障用戶可依面值贖回花幣那麼第二項呢是以外匯相關的事宜目前穩定幣主要用於買賣其他心理資產但未來將會逐漸應用於實體經濟活動的支付"},{"start":2852.355,"end":2868.505,"text":"可能成為跨境支付及台外幣資產兌換的功績之一未來我們將就穩定幣以實體經濟活動之可能應用研議相關業者應向本行申報資料之作業及規範"},{"start":2870.146,"end":2895.106,"text":"本行将持续与金管会共同研拟未来境内心理资产服务商之相关执法规范未来稳定币花型人已申请花型许可前金管会将洽商本行意见本行将就货币政策外汇事项支付系统等议题提供意见以上报告敬请各位委员指教谢谢"},{"start":2896.075,"end":2916.603,"text":"好 谢谢我们朱副总裁的报告我们来介绍一下现在到场的委员赖世宝委员好 我们在场委员已达法定人数请问各位委员对于上次议事录有意义没有 好 谢谢议事录确定"},{"start":2918.167,"end":2940.314,"text":"現在開始詢答 先做以下宣告一 每位出席委員發言時間八分鐘 必要時得延長兩分鐘每位列席委員發言時間五分鐘第二 今日上午十點截止發言登記第三 現已登記順序 請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2953.171,"end":2961.487,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員長"},{"start":2962.981,"end":2991.075,"text":"主委您早主委我請教因為九月公告九家首批通過洗錢黃字登記新制的業者名單作為市場建立初步的監管基礎據瞭解這些業者對虛擬資產產業的未來發展都抱持著高度的期待那主委有業者指出目前台灣只有不到百分之五的民眾"},{"start":2992.276,"end":3013.731,"text":"活躍在加密資產市場相比全球成熟市場如美國 韓國活躍人口達10%到15%以上那台灣的滲透率仍然偏低那我請問主委開拓國內虛擬資產市場的腳步你認為應該加速"},{"start":3017.813,"end":3043.141,"text":"投資民眾參與來積極追上國外成熟的市場還是建構虛擬資產完整的法規進而徐徐投資你的看法呢謝謝委員剛剛那個問題我想陳主委員講說有兩個選項那剛剛委員提到說那個成熟國家其實就以虛擬資產的發展的趨勢來看的話"},{"start":3047.384,"end":3060.819,"text":"應該還不能稱得上就是我們所習慣的一般像資本市場或一般金融市場所謂的成熟市場它是在一個發展中也就是因為這樣最近各個國家才開始針對這個做一些初步的立法我想"},{"start":3061.7,"end":3081.336,"text":"剛剛委員也提到說比如說這個活躍跟滲透度這部分我想在一個發展中的一個市場大概都有這樣一個趨勢我想金管會對於這個虛擬資產的這個態度呢就去年的時候我們有答應說我們會在今年的年中送出草案我們就按照這個我們按照循序漸進謹慎友好的態度應對這樣的發展"},{"start":3083.789,"end":3109.947,"text":"所以說這是我們軍管會的現在的看法跟立場是不是 是的主委 軍管會上半年金錢報告指出虛擬資產業者在防制洗錢打擊知恐及環舞擴的作業上有三個缺失包括客戶審查措施欠妥事對客戶交易持續監控機制"},{"start":3112.87,"end":3127.648,"text":"這個不夠完善以及未建立有效獨立的集合等未確認高風險客戶的財富與資金的來源等那我請問主委今晚會"},{"start":3131.853,"end":3146.452,"text":"經檢虛擬資產的業者所指出的缺失當中到底是故意比較多還是過失比較多你的看法呢是 我想說待會兒不足我請我們檢察局局長來說明我跟委員做個報告就是第一個"},{"start":3147.293,"end":3166.618,"text":"其實我們現在在管理我剛才在報告中報告現在是屬於第三階段是採登記制它還是以洗錢防治為概念的基礎所以剛剛比如提到的幾個問題比如說KYC做得不足還有事後的監控還有內控內機的部分我想在一個剛剛衍生出來的新產業的時候這個是會常見的一個情況"},{"start":3169.199,"end":3189.375,"text":"畢竟開始假設我們專法通過它會變成是一個類似金融機構的高度監管對於剛才講那幾個都是變成是未來基本的要求剛才我在執法的報告裡面確實像比如我們會訂定嚴謹的內控列計制度還有財業物監理準則我想這部分大概未來都會有很顯著的改善"},{"start":3190.034,"end":3214.548,"text":"那按照經檢缺失的個案分析故意或過失行為的成分佔比主委金管會是不是會作為制定法規監理寬延的依據或參考進一步建構更完善的虛擬資產的市場是我想方向當然是這樣我想有些細節我請我們的那個局長給就跟院長做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3218.123,"end":3235.454,"text":"報告委員就是說我們在檢查過程當中已經是根據我們的現在初步針對洗錢房子的部分有這部分的缺失我們提這樣的一個意見給我們的檢查正期取來做一些核處目前已經有對11家的幣商來進行核處共計裁罰了1300多萬"},{"start":3239.836,"end":3254.39,"text":"另外就是對於在未來在專法部分在有關於像內控內基的部分的要求還有法令遵循風險管理這部分這些共同的規範的部分我們日後一定會來做一個加強的檢查是 主委"},{"start":3255.111,"end":3280.491,"text":"缺失中提到虛擬資產客戶審查措施有欠妥事像是為確認這些高風險客戶的財富以及資金的來源那以及對已向法務部調查局通報疑似洗錢交易STR的客戶為事實研判是否調整客戶風險等級那我請問主委"},{"start":3282.412,"end":3307.139,"text":"虛擬資產業者審查的措施欠妥適那到底是業者考量審查要求過嚴所以才會為了業績來便宜行事還是審查措施通報有主觀上的落差所以才會有陽奉陰違的這些情況的出現您的看法"},{"start":3307.984,"end":3329.834,"text":"我想剛才跟委員說明過我們的洗錢房制是一個非常非常嚴密的一個制度我想也是我們是遵循國際的規範以及其他部會我們共同來努力的部分那剛才講就是說他們在做這件事情的時候我們檢察局在檢查的時候發現了這個缺失我們就強烈要求我們也會移送相關的單位"},{"start":3331.134,"end":3354.251,"text":"這個不法的情況我想這部分其實如果是任何的缺失它的動機我們不會知道但是我們會針對它的缺失我們就按照我們的規定該處罰 該糾正 該管理就加以執行主委 另外經檢缺失也提到心理資產業者對客戶交易時持續監控機制不夠完善"},{"start":3355.812,"end":3382.859,"text":"以及沒有建立有效的獨立集合的功能那我請問主委到底虛擬資產業者為什麼沒有辦法依據提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員房子洗錢以及打擊知恐的這些辦法的規定來建構和運作合規的監控機制以及完善獨立集合功能呢"},{"start":3383.459,"end":3405.207,"text":"是跟委員報告其實我們在過去我們開始他是用洗房聲明進入到這個產業開始那是非常低度的管理後來我們今年3月30號開始以後他們必須登記制到9月底以前就剛才報告9月22號以前我們核准了9家以後接下來這些規範就會更為嚴格剛才委員提到就是說其實持續監控"},{"start":3406.247,"end":3426.97,"text":"我們的判斷是除了可能受限於他資源條件跟人力的配置以外還有就是他對整個產業他是否準備好可不可以持續精進所以我們在這個過程當中淘汰了非常多的業者也就是因為我們不斷的要求他們一定要做到既然在未來市場我們要健全發展這些都是很基本一定要做到的"},{"start":3427.31,"end":3440.759,"text":"主委對於虛擬資產業者的法規要求現階段到底是不是應該比照金融業者甚至於還需要更高另外會計師對虛擬資產業者的會計處理包括稅務的申報以及財產簽證等責任你認為國內的會計師是不是已經具備足夠的這些虛擬資產專業的準備"},{"start":3453.844,"end":3474.201,"text":"其實我們在那個登記制的時候呢我們已經開始納入會計師來做一個協助我想這是一個他們的一個報告也是非常重要當然對一個新興產業而言包括很多的未來的稅制還有像這個比如說未來會計如何表達這個可能大家都要應驗稅的部分不是金管會的主管我想我們的相關主管當然也會注意到這件事情"},{"start":3474.801,"end":3502.893,"text":"那只是說未來我們在專法裡面確實如委員所說的我們未來對虛擬資產服務業是採取高度監管的態度就是說當然它可能跟金融機構不太一樣但是那個觀念上是相近的比如說我們這次增加了對它的資本額財業務 內控 內積這些都是我們典型對金融機構的管理這個就更加強化不只是為了洗錢而已主委"},{"start":3503.746,"end":3530.186,"text":"事實上由於詐騙手法不斷的翻新台灣已成為詐騙的重災區每日被騙的金額高達好幾億遠超過鄰近國家現在還因為外國媒體的報導台灣在整個國際社會被冠上詐騙之島的臭名那我請問主委你認為虛擬資產業者是不是已經做好"},{"start":3531.547,"end":3539.07,"text":"防範詐騙守法 污染的準備以及目前金管會的監禮法規現況主委你認為應不應該來加強哪些面向的規範才能夠讓民眾有安全無虞投資虛擬資產的環境"},{"start":3547.973,"end":3573.145,"text":"我想委員剛才提到的確實是這次要立專法一個目的之一因為我們剛才提過我們打造專法裡面已經把VASP納入跟金融機構一樣的反詐的義務我想這次我們剛才提到就是說我們也發現到就是說比如說我們在資訊通報的時候我們只能同業之間通報未來我們也希望在異業把它納入來強化這部分這也是我們一定要來做的"},{"start":3573.442,"end":3595.955,"text":"好 最後一點 主委最近詐騙案件涉案對象多了許多專業人士甚至於包括公務員 包括律師 調查官俗話說 重賞之下必有勇夫那貪念更是罪惡的起點主委 現在就連支法換法的專業人士都可能"},{"start":3596.795,"end":3620.009,"text":"不顧高道德標準動起貪戀挺核走險來涉及詐騙案件那我請問主委你認為虛擬資產業者有沒有必要對行業中的專業人士要求善良管理人的注意義務以阻止這個生涉以生涉法這些情況的發生"},{"start":3621.15,"end":3640.566,"text":"對 委員剛剛提到沒有錯就是我們這次專法裡面有一個專門的執法是針對這些從業人員的資格條件包括消極跟積極資格都會做要求這是我們在監理金融市場最基本的概念我想這部分已經把它納入了這樣 我希望一定要嚴格規範 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林德福委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":3658.295,"end":3670.198,"text":"謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請金管委的彭主委 央行的朱副總裁好 我們請彭主委 朱副總裁兩位長官委員長兩位長官好首先先請教一下朱副總裁我們看到在川普"},{"start":3680.982,"end":3699.932,"text":"上任之後你會發現到他很在乎是美國的股票市場他很在乎的是加密貨幣這個可以講叫心風作亂也好啦或者是推波助瀾也好啦加密貨幣理創性高黃金理創性高我就請問央行"},{"start":3701.738,"end":3709.523,"text":"你們的外匯存底的配置有沒有增加持有加密貨幣增加黃金有沒有央行的外匯資產一向是注重流動性安全性為原則我們沒有加密資產"},{"start":3719.989,"end":3722.472,"text":"沒有買加密貨幣沒有買黃金黃金是以前早期買最近有沒有買最近沒有最近一兩個月因為已經在高檔我們都沒買所以如果委員有機會到文言再看一下盤點一下完全跟10年前是一樣那個看不出來"},{"start":3739.808,"end":3747.872,"text":"一塊塊金塊怎麼看得到 你都沒有看到所以我們的外存底最多還是存有美債是不是應該是存有美顏計價的資產對 美顏計價的資產有八成以上這個我現在不是"},{"start":3760.797,"end":3765.278,"text":"很確定 因為隨時在動態調整最少有七成所以如果說你要比較經驗不不不 在這裡就要老實回答因為這是公共領域而且老百姓很關心我們的歐盟存底你到底放了哪些這個不是什麼機密就過去都講過我們的美元計價的八成然後日元計價多少歐盟計價多少 這個都有這是公開的資料"},{"start":3789.103,"end":3805.633,"text":"正如委員剛才講現在國際金融市場動盪很大我們隨時在調整所以我現在真的也不知道我回去問一下我們外匯局我要現在回答啦是不是美元計價有沒有八成啦這只是我們總裁回答你的數字嗎總裁講的是八成我現在要你回答數字啊不是我真的因為"},{"start":3813.137,"end":3831.368,"text":"因為我本身並沒有夜館到這個部分所以我沒辦法 對 是對不起所以差不多八成了不是喔 我不知道 謝謝芷佳你不能一路上不知道 不可以啊那你今天來幹什麼你要回答 要說什麼"},{"start":3832.509,"end":3834.45,"text":"不是 我今天講的是講穩定幣這部分我沒想到您是要問外匯純體的外匯純體很重要好 那你另外總是可以回答了嘛美國降息一碼12月未知台幣是不是會再升值12月降息怎樣"},{"start":3852.486,"end":3870.826,"text":"你們要看我的Power Point美國不是已經降息一碼嗎剛宣布了啊那12月不知道啦有人預估說12月還要降息一碼啦那央行會不會跟著從美國降息台幣到升值啦"},{"start":3872.308,"end":3877.952,"text":"其實這樣啦 因為美國是一個大國他的降息我講我的邏輯啦美國降息他一定會 像您講的那個跟各國之間的利差會改變但台灣 我們台灣也有自己的考量啦比如說我們"},{"start":3894.983,"end":3897.445,"text":"有幾個央行政策的目標不是只有利差對比如說外匯市場影響還有我們的通貨膨脹經濟成長率等等不是利率政策是理事會決定不是利率這是匯率"},{"start":3919.726,"end":3930.216,"text":"匯率 你可以看一下我的題目匯率的話 坦白說利差只是其中的一個因素現在的國際金融市場我問你 你怎麼說你講了這麼多 我現在講讓我這麼說 你回答我台幣是不是可能再升值 就這樣子回答我 我這樣講如果我們的經濟前景很好 外匯市場"},{"start":3947.51,"end":3958.775,"text":"這個部分怎麼反應因為外資會進來看好我們嘛所以外資若進來他對我們有信心這個是市場決定的你給我回答是不是會升值啦就外資的行為來講他資金進來是升可是他若不進來跟我們對你今年跟你以前不一樣耶以前敢講話今天不敢講話已經奇怪不知道今天來幹什麼都是這樣子歐陵生徒不可以這樣子"},{"start":3976.244,"end":3989.503,"text":"來 我們兩位長官如果發行穩定幣是你們誰管 金管會管還是央行管保護委員 因為這是因為它定在我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面等一下 等一下 主事總裁先不要走"},{"start":3990.524,"end":4006.345,"text":"副總裁 你先不要走 還沒叫你走因為您好像希望知道一些相關的信息我必須請問你不要讓我時間來來來 彭主委來是 剛剛跟委員說明就趕快邀讓有什麼要Case給他資料 趕快給"},{"start":4008.271,"end":4020.134,"text":"因為這部法裡面第二條明定主管機關是金管會但是我們在穩定幣專章裡面有提到因為這會試射到貨幣跟外匯所以這部分我們是跟央行共管"},{"start":4021.276,"end":4038.282,"text":"那請問央行的支付總裁穩定幣是不是貨幣是不是貨幣穩定幣是支付的工具所以有支付功能這可以視為視為貨幣你總裁講的不一樣喔 講不講不是貨幣喔不是總裁講貨幣不是貨幣喔你回去再叫我媽喔"},{"start":4046.838,"end":4065.143,"text":"我不要害你喔 蛤穩定幣是代幣啦代幣啦 你不是那個玩那個PATJINGO啊 對不對那個代幣 穩定幣是其中之一 對吧 彭總裁 對吧來 那個彭主委 對吧報告委員 它是一種私部門發行的數位貨幣蛤"},{"start":4066.583,"end":4083.016,"text":"私部門發行的數位貨幣 私部門所以任何公司都可以發可是它要符合我們現在的虛擬資產管理法的這個 問你是不是貨幣是不是貨幣它如果是以法幣1比1的掛鉤它就是屬於私人部門發行的數位貨幣"},{"start":4084.298,"end":4096.479,"text":"私人發行的數位貨幣可是更精準的應該它是代幣的對吧它應該是一種代幣化的技術所發行的主委 你告訴我穩定幣是什麼代幣對吧"},{"start":4097.771,"end":4119.876,"text":"我跟委員報告一下代幣其中之一就是如果說根據我們那個草案我們也參考MECA的規定就是它的制定的辦法我們先定義虛擬資產那我們在裡面定義是說它以跟價值連結的一種虛擬資產所以基本上穩定幣所以它是資產它是虛擬資產的一種在我們的法律裡面定義是一種"},{"start":4120.716,"end":4147.727,"text":"這個很重要喔這個因為對公子人員包括你啊大官啊都要申報財產喔如果有比特幣的話都要申報喔如果你這樣講的話過去是不用申報的喔因為 央行不承認是貨幣喔央行不承認是資產喔所以今天央行的態度有改變喔來 央行的三位長官請離開喔因為我時間有限請教彭主委喔玉山青最近病了三傷受"},{"start":4149.219,"end":4169.844,"text":"這個事情到現在為止沒有發布重訊參與競爭的有一個中信金10月23號還發重訊為什麼玉山金可以這麼老大不發重訊而且沒有經過董事會通過有沒有經過董事會通過要不要查一下 誰可以回答"},{"start":4171.184,"end":4188.369,"text":"這個事情外面很關心這個題目我知道這個有關上市櫃公司該不該發重訊那是在因為是上市櫃公司跟證交所之間訂有一個契約他有一個明定根據交易所的規定他有如列了51項該做重訊的請問你這是重訊"},{"start":4195.091,"end":4222.597,"text":"我先跟委員說明一下這個是交易所跟上市會公司之間的約定他們會上面爐列了這麼多由上市會公司進行判斷但交易所如果認為有必要的時候可以請他做說明我想剛剛委員有提到其中有一家公司因為他開了董事會他就發了重訊按照他那個標準的規範重訊沒有搶到 搶金搶到他就發布重訊結果玉山金搶到了他還沒有發布重訊這奇怪"},{"start":4224.949,"end":4240.808,"text":"這件事情跟委員報告這到底什麼貓膩啊我們已經像這個事他跟交易所之間我們知道這個事情我們就已經責成交易所趕快去了解到交易所你們銀行局 政經局都路人甲當然不會是路人甲你們路人甲你們有角色扮演"},{"start":4243.024,"end":4264.073,"text":"這個委員剛剛講到角色扮演正是這個因為在整個過程當中包括他們整個去做這個雙方協商的過程真正的話他們未來如果按照按照他們要做完董事會以後做成正式的決議才會送到今晚會來我們要看到他正式的股票市場都反映了玉山金股票重挫啊三商的股票暴漲股市都反映了結果他們都沒有報告"},{"start":4271.676,"end":4294.826,"text":"所以說我們昨天我們在記者會也講清楚我們已經請交易所按照他們的規定去了解交易所也請他們三家公司沒有 我就確定一點這個算不算重訓這是不是重訓是交易所跟他們之間的認定我們一起請交易所我們會請交易所查明以後對外說明這個也把政企局長 張局長看扁了他沒事可以做"},{"start":4296.166,"end":4313.681,"text":"也不是 因為這是本來就是一個在教育世界發中訓的過程我反而依據他的規定來做的小問題 但是很重要的小問題來 說花布啊普發現金一萬塊說13歲以上不可以由父母帶領他的理由說已經可以理財自主"},{"start":4314.98,"end":4343.943,"text":"金管會同意嗎他可以理財自儲嗎我想他不會被騙嗎有關普發現金這是由財政部來主政金管會負責是ATM的部分我想我想這部分比如說至於說未成年人的他的一些權利義務就回歸到民法的概念比如說他其實在未成年如果他也可以按照我們現行符合民法規定他也可以去開戶我想這部分金管會呢大致是沒有啦這個我要強調了財政部也應該發新衛保財經了我很快把它結束"},{"start":4344.944,"end":4356.933,"text":"被詐欺的人口18歲到23歲最多每10萬人627人所以年紀越小越容易被詐欺結果現在樹 花布等於侵入到你的地盤"},{"start":4358.683,"end":4369.87,"text":"明確的指出來13歲已經有金融自主的權利理財自主這個都是你們的管區這個銀行局你們要講話這個東西他都已經殺到你地盤結果你都點點其實沒什麼地盤的問題我們各自有分工我想財政部也做出了新聞稿說明我想我們在這一部分我們就針對我們該比如說法律怎麼規定銀行怎麼做我們就怎麼做"},{"start":4388.004,"end":4400.866,"text":"沒有 你贊成13歲以上就不要父母配嗎我個人是強烈反對啦這個不是金管會能夠回答的問題啦我是一個金管會主委 我不會去你要去回答啊因為你講說13歲13歲畢竟未成年才國一他能夠自己理財 他容易受騙啦不是 主要是根據民法上面對於未成年人有他的一些能力行為的規範啦好 謝謝 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":4422.383,"end":4448.085,"text":"主席有請彭主委我們請彭主委你好彭主委這個報紙的標題做得很大穩定幣發行納管拼明年上路看到沒有這麼大看不到是不是我待會請人送過去明年上路明明現在要進入第四階段現在目前還躺在行政院裡頭"},{"start":4448.826,"end":4464.711,"text":"要法律通過才會第四階段對我知道然後如果你這麼有信心常常談到行政院立法院現在變化多數那我請問一下如果明年可以上路的話最有可能是明年上半年還是下半年那個標題不是我下的我沒有這麼說不是你下的對我只是說看起來"},{"start":4465.191,"end":4485.389,"text":"我是說假設立法通過以後我們在半年之內要頒布這個相關的執法所以明年上半年有機會了如果說法律通過後行政機關在半年之內要公布所有的立法執法要半年這半年之內要最後半年之內要公布如果要半年的話如果要上半年那除非這個會期通過嘛這個會期顯然是"},{"start":4486.95,"end":4509.031,"text":"變數重重對不對這要看大院什麼時候通過其實我們的執法都在準備中了行政院都還沒送來就不是大院的問題立法院的問題來 主委最近前一段時間有些案例知名的餐廳什麼香園賓士東影快車所的老闆與違法的第三方支付非能量登錄的Hero Pet合作替海外博弈集團洗錢"},{"start":4511.093,"end":4538.873,"text":"更誇張的是半年洗30億當然第三方支付書發布的事情但是這裡頭有共管的問題那本席在民間還有聽過什麼麵包店 按摩店 水產店甚至是眼鏡行還有那種24小時的這裡頭有一個特點一個是內需市場二來呢 現金流為主那為什麼可以做到這種階段呢"},{"start":4541.183,"end":4563.104,"text":"照說這些屬於內需市場的服務業它應該沒有所謂的海外除非它有海外據點分店或者加盟不至於有這麼多海外業務需要匯款所以當這些匯款的部分它會透過金融單位的時候難道銀行就讓它直接"},{"start":4564.205,"end":4584.007,"text":"把這個高額海外的匯款匯出去嗎雖然這個案子目前檢方還在偵辦當中但是現在類似這種現象在民間還普遍被討論這個主委是 我想剛剛有幾個問題剛剛委員其實講的就是真的因為剛剛提到你也知道嘛 沒有"},{"start":4584.647,"end":4605.686,"text":"這些業態都不是我們現在金管住管但剛才講假設牽涉到匯款特別是匯款就是說這個匯款的部分我們有有一套的規定去來做這個限制比如包括最近因為詐騙很盛行我們也針對這一塊我們也在著力但是細節我不能再公開說明我只是說這部分包括反洗錢很多東西都有一定的規範在做"},{"start":4606.727,"end":4626.655,"text":"當然我們是看到一個案例以後回推會覺得這個是一件不可以但是我們會這是冰山一角對這不是單一案例好不好就是單一案例的價值本席今天講說好幾個行業我在民間在跑都有聽到沒錯委員講的是就是說我們會從這些案例裡面再回推我們整個在防控上面有沒有漏洞"},{"start":4627.375,"end":4652.034,"text":"这就是今天我质询您的重点就是说已经有这种现象检方也将侦办了至少他要透过银行海外汇款的时候我们要如何把关对没错就是这很关键交易的部分我们应该会来那为什么一开始我要问说你稳定币什么时候上路跟这个又有关系为什么因为稳定币也会变成一种媒介对不对它也有可能会造成这样的结果好我们再看一下"},{"start":4654.025,"end":4683.345,"text":"穩定幣基本上它也有可能會造成洗錢的工具也就是說我上次的這個部分它不是透過銀行匯款而是透過穩定幣的這種部分來進行把款項匯出這個部分你要如何去防弊就是說銀行還有一個公司治理的KYC那個問題是現在的交易所你有要求類似的公司治理嗎"},{"start":4684.301,"end":4711.842,"text":"我們現在的交易所的話它應該有要加強這個監管的強度嗎你剛剛說目前虛擬貨幣是屬於高度監管的現在只是登記制還沒有達到我們的高度監管還沒達到嘛 還沒到嘛那也就是說將來如果說你開放之後有可能會類似的情況多開放一個管道甚至目前搞不好就有了因為現在交易所目前這個UB一大堆"},{"start":4713.403,"end":4731.722,"text":"現在我們9家裡面確實有在經營交易所的對 已經有了 已經有在交易了所以有時候這個時候我們是不是應該就要去看有沒有可能當我們在銀行端的時候緊縮的時候他會不會跑到這邊來對 確實我們在銀行跟VASP交易的部分我們有訂定相關的規範"},{"start":4732.383,"end":4755.109,"text":"所以我們現在來講比如說他們現在上次講過他完全不能用現金做交易所以我們現在全部都要透過那個法幣帳戶所以它就跟銀行之間產生了未來我們做KYC這些都比較容易做對 我意思是說這個部分也應該要求將來對於交易所的部分那另外一個部分因為穩定幣接下來因為它的這個成本低"},{"start":4755.689,"end":4776.135,"text":"然後交易又快速那這種情況底下它會不會把既有的這個海外的這個外匯的這個交易量的這個內容當中把它替代掉既有外匯會替代的可能這個有很多討論就是因為它穩定並肯最重要是跨境支付跨境支付一定是比如說它一定是用這個"},{"start":4777.975,"end":4804.582,"text":"不同的幣別的穩定幣之間在做交易那我想這部分的話未來的話其實各國都很重視這是我們會跟央行來好好密切來管因為這主要是央行 我就講到央行這個問題我問過楊總裁他說未來是不是有衝擊要看使用者的對穩定幣有無信心我不曉得你的判斷如何當然所有的貨幣的使用都跟使用者的信心就像比如說我們現在那個"},{"start":4805.982,"end":4831.114,"text":"其中的泰達幣他也沒有受到監管但大家為什麼覺得就是有人信任他如果沒有信心不會流通CCC由美國監管他才相信對 沒有錯通常CCC有市場才有法規市場已經流通過了然後法規才跟進同樣的方式像那個Swift有一個現實上的一個交換機制但以後的虛擬貨幣的部分有沒有類似的這一種監理的機構"},{"start":4831.834,"end":4856.393,"text":"那當然是未來監理的重點剛剛有報告過就是我們對剛才委員講說我們總共7個樣態的Vespa業者裡面其中最核心的大概就是交易平台商他會做了很多業態未來在監管的強度應該也是最強的就是交易平台商對他的要求也比較多那這個再來就是對他的一些的資本的要求人員的管控這些應該都會比較高"},{"start":4857.013,"end":4882.286,"text":"有 你在相關的八大的執法當中有特別講到對於人員的部分的消極跟積極資格我們對各種不同因為我們現在有七大類的幣七大類對 其中有一個所謂的交易平台商就是我們講類似續幣的交易所這個概念它會做到很多其他業務這是很重要的部分我們在內部執法裡面我們已經會做分級的管理會做一些分級的管理"},{"start":4883.487,"end":4901.535,"text":"所以但是看起來總體而言有沒有可能那個金管會跟央行對於這流進來現在主要是這個UB維多這個部分的流進的這個部分的流量還有流出的這個部分將來有一個海外匯款的一個申報機制的可能性 有沒有"},{"start":4901.815,"end":4927.003,"text":"有 我想說剛剛那個包括央行的報告跟我們的報告裡面這裡面他要呈報的資訊裡面我們Vespa比如說KYC他換了這些的量這些定期的報表應該申報什麼東西應該都未來都是非常重要就是說業者會字節然後通報給主管機關這個就是他被納管最基本的要求最基本的要求所以說都會做一個基本的流量管控當然好 那接下來還有一個部分"},{"start":4929.103,"end":4951.89,"text":"現階段我們的穩定幣在世界上最主流的部分大概泰達幣還有Circle的部分發行的UB這兩種為主一個大家占7成多一個大家占2成多現階段的話穩定幣最關鍵的就目前官方所透露除了銀行之外還沒有可能誰可以發行"},{"start":4952.35,"end":4980.972,"text":"其實按照國外它實際上當然最重要是所謂的就是銀行機構再來還有其他像美國的話它有經過他們聯邦同意也可以還有就是比如說像比如說以香港為例它也沒有限制說比如說很多電商也有可能來申請沒有 就一般的虛擬貨幣我們不管但是就穩定幣的部分有沒有可能交易所或其他的地方可以有發行的可能性像剛剛委員提到那個兩大USDT跟USDC就不是金融機構發的是這樣"},{"start":4982.914,"end":5003.349,"text":"對 剛才那兩大就是USDT跟USDC就不是金融機構發的對 就不是嘛那我是不是說在台灣呢在台灣因為我們現在的規定你的穩定幣的話要金融機構先發行嘛 對不對我們是參照MICA的我們沒有在法律上把它限縮但是我們在很多公開的場合我們說我們基於省省"},{"start":5004.19,"end":5029.5,"text":"省政的態度我們會優先的由金融機構來發行對 我知道我是說衍生後面的部分有沒有可能其他的好 那另外目前好像沒有國際的業者落地是不是我們監管得太嚴了沒有 我想我們在這個專法裡面就有一個有針對國外VASP來申請我想這個我們都是開放的未來的話我們也真會境外像剛剛講有穩定幣來講在境外就是專法之後會比較更開放就是了對 它會有明確的遊戲規則"},{"start":5030.72,"end":5051.087,"text":"好 最后一个问题有关于这些交易所的部分有没有可能开放一些衍生性的商品就如同去年本席在担任这一个招委的时候有去海外参访我们去看了日本的稳定币日本的部分基本上的虚拟货币的监管非常的严格"},{"start":5051.727,"end":5068.306,"text":"即便這麼嚴格的情況底下它還是有開放開放一些衍生性的商品類似像這個期貨的概念的一個商品但是需要一些特定的概感比的一個演算法的公司這個有沒有可能是台灣未來走的方向類似於日本這個虛擬的演"},{"start":5068.986,"end":5092.616,"text":"衍生性業務的話我剛才在報告裡面也說了就是說我們在那個虛擬資產業務裡面我們留了一個其他金主管居然同意的虛擬資產業務我們剛才說我們會根據我們現實這些業者經營的狀況以及風險管控的能力以及國際的趨勢我們在看需求隨時可以來做調整看市場發展逐步放寬應該是我們逐步漸進來做這件事越漸淺就越多元當然"},{"start":5094.016,"end":5099.02,"text":"謝謝主委的回覆謝謝國務委員接下來我們請賴會員委員謝謝主席有請央行副總裁還有業務局局長我們請朱副總裁還有謝局長"},{"start":5123.359,"end":5144.561,"text":"副總裁 局長 早安我想針對的就是在去年6月12號那本席當任召委的時候我有辦了一個虛擬資產服務法的公聽會那在這個公聽會裡頭就是有很多的學者他跟專家他都給了很多的一個建議那他也期望"},{"start":5145.201,"end":5163.549,"text":"就是期待行政部門保留一個創新的空間那當然就是說我們希望就是國際化那也保障投資人所以在這裡頭這一個新法我們希望金融會安全那個洗錢的一個防治法要能建立還有數位組錢這裡頭都是一個關鍵的一個轉折點"},{"start":5167.971,"end":5188.857,"text":"在這裡我想請教央行副總裁有幾個問題我想請教你就是說在這一次的虛擬資產服務法裡頭的草案第34條裡頭它有提到穩定幣等一下你解釋一下穩定幣跟我們央行的CBDC它有什麼樣的一個不同"},{"start":5189.597,"end":5217.948,"text":"那除了不同以外那在資料裡頭我們又看到了就是說今天審查的這個草案裡頭穩定幣你把它列入了一個規劃那這個穩定幣你要扮演一個那個最主要就是說你要進行監管這個是後段的後段的監管會那你的目的是什麼站在央行的一個角度請跟我提出這幾個說明好不好"},{"start":5219.529,"end":5239.988,"text":"我先做個簡單的說明那詳細部分請我們局長補充基本上央行的CVDC是屬於具有法幣性質只是他用數位的方式來發行第二個CVDC這個出來"},{"start":5241.279,"end":5266.215,"text":"它分兩層有一層是央行跟金融機構之間的一個關係第二層是金融機構跟一般客戶我們講的使用者的關係CBDC最主要的處理的是央行跟金融機構這種大額清算等等"},{"start":5267.276,"end":5287.089,"text":"所以這個是它的特質簡單的講它是不是就是一個流動的新台幣應該是電子化的新台幣電子化的一個新型的電子化的新台幣但是它不會用到一般資戶最主要是在跟金融資格之間"},{"start":5288.51,"end":5315.637,"text":"他需要那個始祖的準備金那花行者達到一定的金額的時候一定要向央行那個就是繳交這個準備金那當然就是說這一個那個穩定幣的當中他有交易的仲介還有替代那個通貨的功能那這裡我要請教你穩定幣會不會比照通貨還是那個我們的那個火期那個存款裡頭把它列為就是記幣的範圍呢"},{"start":5321.472,"end":5345.49,"text":"你說什麼季幣 哪一個季幣我跟你講穩定幣穩定幣就是它一定是要繳準備金那準備金裡頭你會不會比照就是說未來會不會比照通貨不是通盆 是通貨還是活期性的一個存款列為貨幣的季幣的一個範圍"},{"start":5346.809,"end":5371.693,"text":"我們現在的地體準備金的部分就是比照現在的電子支付因為它是一種電子支付代幣化的支部門發行的虛偽貨幣現在的呢現在電子支付是地級準備金是以活期存款的準備率在地體準備金所以你通貨有沒有把它列進去呢你活期已經列進去了"},{"start":5373.537,"end":5400.962,"text":"因为它是等于把钱放到发行者的账户里面去那我们就是视同它就是有吸收这一笔的资金那这一笔的资金的这一部分就是提出来以活期存款的不会是1比1吗它现在就是1比1你说准备资产的部分吗准备资产是整体的那准备资产有包括准备金那具体准备金剩余的部分就是可以买高品质高流动性的这些金融资产"},{"start":5401.482,"end":5425.213,"text":"那这个加起来的准备资产要大一点纳进去跟不纳进去有什么样的一个影响你分析给我听你说准备金不纳进去的话吗对好 第一个因为它是要跟因为它是像的功能支付功能跟现在的电子制度管理条例是类似的所以我们需要说相同的业务相同的活动要适用相同的规定所以有具体准备金这样规定那当然是安全嘛那第二个准备金的部分是有保障"},{"start":5426.258,"end":5432.343,"text":"因為準備經濟體制了之後如果它發生問題可以保障消費者的權益那對台灣的一個貨幣資產它的影響層面是怎麼樣其實我覺得重點還是在影響到金融體系的存款因為今天如果是私人私部門某一個非銀行機構去發行穩定幣那是不是你要把資金吸到這個非銀行機構的這個機構的本身"},{"start":5453.718,"end":5470.285,"text":"用戶一定會從銀行的存款提出來放到這些私部門機構去發行穩定幣所以其實比較衝擊的應該是銀行存款這個體系這個存款的流失我這樣聽起來其實你們還是非常的保守"},{"start":5471.525,"end":5491.181,"text":"那個軍管會主委一直講說要有一個創新當然那個主委我等一下那個下半段就是請教你那這個上半段央行是趨於一個比較保守一個比較保守你有沒有想到就是說其實我們新台幣它處於一個比較劣勢因為我們不夠國際化"},{"start":5493.322,"end":5520.782,"text":"那不夠國際化我們的知名度又不夠我們不像新加坡不像那個香港他們其實是有一個比較想的一個國際知名度然後我們又不是世界那個流通的一個貨幣我們也不是美金也不是日幣也不是歐元那如果你用這麼保守的一個貨幣政策的話是不是會影響未來比特幣的一個發展那當然剛才我坐在那個"},{"start":5523.55,"end":5540.151,"text":"坐在我的同事旁邊我同事就告訴我說我對這個法案事實上我是有點擔心我是不知道要怎麼對待擔心起來因為我也知道說勢必是一定要推動的可是在推動的過程裡頭"},{"start":5541.252,"end":5559.674,"text":"如果我們不跟世界接軌的話那我們會非常的一個吃虧那顯然就是說在這個過程裡頭那個新台幣的穩定幣必須要就是100%的一個準備金那這個準備金你們會把它指定放在這個央行或是指定的金融機構呢"},{"start":5561.55,"end":5576.946,"text":"我們不是100%的準備金而是一部分是體存準備金1比1為什麼不是100%呢不是 它的準備金的構成成分是準備金還有其他高流動性的資產所以準備金只是其中的一部分不是100%不是100%對 好"},{"start":5581.11,"end":5591.16,"text":"不是百分之百好 那就是民間發行的新台幣的穩定幣的話它不一定就是必須100%的一個準備金不是100%的準備金但是100%的準備資產"},{"start":5594.423,"end":5611.532,"text":"好 是100%的準備資產那你的規模要晃到多大那就要看整個這個部門它發行的量有多大沒有 你一定要有一個準備你打算你的規模要晃到最大是晃到哪裡你不可以連這個都打不出來就是看這個部門發行的穩定幣的量規模有多大才會以這個量去記提所謂的準備資產"},{"start":5622.968,"end":5629.314,"text":"所以你們打算就是說這個規模要晃到多大總是有一個天花板你有一個地板總是會有一個天花板你不可能連這個問題都答不出來那我們怎麼支持你這個草案通過呢"},{"start":5648.971,"end":5664.327,"text":"店主师傅来看的话他的准备金如果单纯讲准备金大概是10.10%左右我现在在问你说我不是在问准备金我已经翻页了我在问你说你的规模有多大"},{"start":5666.244,"end":5680.26,"text":"目前我看的虛擬資產的這個專法裡面是沒有規模的一個限額那我想後續可能再跟金管會這邊目前看母法是沒有但是我想後續我們可能會跟金管會再來做一些溝通交流 謝謝"},{"start":5681.021,"end":5692.605,"text":"所以有沒有跟金管會溝通過這個問題我要講母法是一個一般概念將來有相關的執法訂定的部分那你們跟金管總是會討論過主委主委所以相關執法這個部分應該比較清楚"},{"start":5699.167,"end":5717.457,"text":"好 主委我想那個是不是你來回答我這一個問題我們有關穩定幣因為剛剛也涉及到可能是外匯還有貨幣的問題我們這個所有的草案包括我們這個草案裡面總共有八個條文每一個條文都跟央行做過非常密切的溝通"},{"start":5718.732,"end":5735.213,"text":"包括未來的執法也都是一定是因為這個確實牽涉到兩個像剛剛韋恩的投影片裡面像比如新加坡MS它就是兼具金管會跟央行的功能他們就很容易協調那我想我們在這邊兩個部分應該沒有什麼問題在這一塊我們有很高度的共識在管理這個市場"},{"start":5736.195,"end":5750.488,"text":"我還是希望你會後給我這一個大概一個參考你們的規模到底要做到哪裡就是我們會想說未來對於穩定幣整個規範的架構還有這些細節內容我再跟委員做報告"},{"start":5751.189,"end":5771.552,"text":"那一方面要監理一邊又希望豁免他的監理的一個管理權這個有沒有矛盾就是在你的這個草案裡頭就是說你希望就是授權業者有創新的一個實驗可是你又希望他不適用於本法這個會不會出現結構性的一個矛盾"},{"start":5771.732,"end":5794.273,"text":"其實不會啦 跟委員說明因為這個是因為我們覺得為了要鼓勵這個創新我把那個創新實驗條例也適用到這個VASP的這個只是說就像我們現在所有金融機構都可以都可以來適用所以你讓它更靈活就是說未來假設比如說它有一個是我們在整個這個虛擬資產服務法規範下面框線到一個新型的業態的話我們可以暫時跟它用"},{"start":5794.833,"end":5811.368,"text":"那如果業者進行大規模的募資的話那你會不會就是介入那是不是會有一個尖裡的沙盒還是說會有一個灰色的避風港其實不會有其實這種灰色地帶在模糊地帶我們就是擔心"},{"start":5812.569,"end":5820.237,"text":"一些狀況就是發生在這個模糊地帶沒有關係 那個主委我想我們再來共同討論好不好其實不會有這個問題啦這個條文只是說讓他試用書面說明給賴委員好不好讓他試用創新實驗條例好 謝謝我們謝謝賴委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":5843.689,"end":5846.79,"text":"主席 麻煩請金管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員早早 請問美國的這個穩定幣現在進行到的程度是怎麼樣現在美國穩定幣就是剛剛講的天才法案天才法案應該據我所知還在做最後一個確認不過他們已經開始已經"},{"start":5867.523,"end":5894.149,"text":"就是美元的穩定幣現在在市場上已經是主流了他們現在納管的部分好像他一個立法程序最後要完成所以已經先走了然後法律還沒有完備不是 他們確實是過去USDT或USDC這兩個早就已經存在的東西其實我個人認為過去這個貨幣的發行是國家的主權行為那如果你這個穩定幣跟美元是掛鉤1比1"},{"start":5895.902,"end":5925.374,"text":"然後讓渡給私人去發行這是把國家的主權行為下放這裡產生一個問題這個貨幣的總供給量就M2會不會因為這樣子而增加這個可能要請央行來回答比較精準這個部分因為央行我知道他們的答案就是說我不把這個算入貨幣但是我是覺得在整體在市面上流動的貨幣就是會增加那個副總裁"},{"start":5931.34,"end":5935.043,"text":"其實這個問題我們最近在演藝中還流程還蠻複雜的要看譬如說花型之後那個花型商賣出去他收到的那個款項他怎麼用如果他把它當作存款"},{"start":5950.558,"end":5956.06,"text":"這個存款的項目是在貨幣供給的項目裡面可是現在穩定幣發行的又可以當交易的媒介如果從這個部分它有一個影響在這邊然後還有一個另外一個流向它並不存回銀行體系作為存款它可能買去我們說它可以有高品質的金融資產所以它可能去買債券等等"},{"start":5978.047,"end":6003.346,"text":"那债券他钱就没有留回银行体系所以会有影响假设他去买债券问题是这个稳定币的取得者他要如何使用这个稳定币不是你能够控制的不是稳定币他发行就在稳定币的这个币圈流通那这一边当然他就有交易的功能那你同时有交易的功能问题是你本来国家的"},{"start":6004.571,"end":6010.313,"text":"貨幣的總供給量M2本來是有受控的但是你再加上這個東西之後這個東西的數量你有辦法總計在裡面嗎我現在這樣講我先講後面流通再來您講的總計如果它在幣圈流通這就是一個交易的媒介那這邊就牽涉到我們要不要把穩定幣它有交易功能要納入貨幣供給這一個項目如果你不納入跟納入這邊"},{"start":6034.341,"end":6035.723,"text":"對啊 你到底納入還不納入因為在計算貨幣供給有M1 M2那你要看要不要列到因為你從M1這邊拿了貨幣去買所以你如果要納入它可能就跑到M2那這邊就有一增一減"},{"start":6053.281,"end":6067.719,"text":"那这个增加会产生什么样的后果呢还有一个这是第一层第二层是说币商拿到钱我刚才讲我的意思是说刚刚你回答了我是说币商拿到钱他要怎么使用不是你可以控制的吗不是 会影响到货币供给所以这个"},{"start":6069.06,"end":6072.742,"text":"影響增減我們說這樣看起來目前沒辦法說是增還是減要去看他們怎麼用那個有一個流程所以這是我們目前的一個邏輯所以我剛剛講說我為什麼會擔憂這個東西我個人認為如果M2的整體是增加的那你國家的主權行為本來你的貨幣供給是有一定在央行的控制之下如果你這個供給增加太多會造成通貨膨脹啊"},{"start":6096.094,"end":6112.803,"text":"那不只是通貨膨脹會影響到我們講的就是說貨幣政策效果中另外一個利率水準好 那另外一個問題美國的穩定幣你同不同意它在台灣使用當作美金的支付工具這是國家跟國家之間的主權行為"},{"start":6114.729,"end":6136.33,"text":"這個你們有討論過嗎我想是這樣如果美國花型的穩定幣要進入台灣的市場我們儘管會有些規定應該是看他們的規定有一些他規定不到有一些就在網路上直接支付掉了網路上直接支付掉了也不是你們能夠控制的那怎麼辦我覺得現在好像即使沒規定也是有這個問題"},{"start":6138.567,"end":6167.145,"text":"就是跟委員說明一下我們在那個穩定幣裡面呢分兩個一個是台灣發行就是對本國募集嘛這個當然沒問題那再來第一個就是國外已經募集已經存在的話他如果要在我們的所謂的未來的虛擬資產服務業裡面進行交易要經過我們的同意等於說他要經過我們的同意還包括追蹤除了我剛剛的問題他如果進來經過你的同意這個還比較好控制他現在因為網路無國界你根本就控制不到他他直接就在網路上支付了對確實是"},{"start":6169.226,"end":6193.744,"text":"台灣的政府就中華民國政府要不要承認是一回事事實上它已經發生了就像我在總質詢的時候經濟部長跟我講說我們台灣不接受中國的電商經營問題是所有的拼多多淘寶的貨品大量進來了你不承認它是存在的啊不是說我不承認它就不存在啊那我現在一個問題美國的穩定幣看起來台灣非接受不可"},{"start":6194.485,"end":6205.731,"text":"因為除非你要跟美國對幹但是我覺得不太可能我們中華民國政府不太可能好那如果他在台灣做支付這一些就會變成我剛剛講的廣義的國家貨幣總體供給"},{"start":6209.932,"end":6225.328,"text":"有可能會不受控他的金額會增加很多那當然這個金額增加很多M2增加很多的時候另外一個考慮的問題是說會不會造成整個通貨膨脹的問題因為等於就是廣義的貨幣流通在台灣就增加了很多"},{"start":6226.228,"end":6252.802,"text":"這跟委員提到就是說我們從這個比如說穩定幣從過去這一段子在國際上使用確實有一個狀況就是有些國家的民眾對自己本國的貨幣反而信心不夠他會希望持有穩定幣反而成為民間支付一個很重要的這個工具它是自然形成的就是說在確實剛才委員提到就是說在網路世界裡面當我某些國人他自有能力然後透過這個方式去"},{"start":6254.343,"end":6270.336,"text":"購買或是去轉換他這個時候確實我們在整個在我們這個法規管理上面是未來要再努力的地方因為我們現在是希望針對說我們現在納管這些業者然後再來就對於一般民眾我們加大他的保護的範圍是啦我知道你這個立法的目的但是我剛剛講的這些疑慮是要先想的是"},{"start":6278.496,"end":6292.543,"text":"我個人認為未來美國的穩定幣一定會透過各種途徑進到台灣來台灣的人也不會去拒絕全世界沒有人會拒絕美金因為美金的流動性跟它的可信度都是現在世界所有貨幣裡面最強的"},{"start":6293.524,"end":6313.784,"text":"你坦白講 你問我說你是要持有新台幣還是要持有美金如果我有選擇方便的話如果方便的話我當然希望持有美金那我還沒有匯率的我還不會規避匯率的問題啊我們的保險業也不用買那麼多的那麼多的這個在外國投資的時候要買那麼多的這個平衡保險啊不用避那麼多險"},{"start":6315.626,"end":6329.259,"text":"那這些問題馬上就會來所以我是認為說定這個東西非定不可確實因為時代來了你不改變不行但是很多問題要先想清楚你M2的供給"},{"start":6330.441,"end":6352.607,"text":"如果美國這邊1比1他是鎖美國公債跟美金而且要鎖住那麼多才能發行等量的穩定幣美國公債就是因為美國政府要讓他賣他的公債他認為他的美國公債的價值跟他的美金現鈔是一樣的這我們能理解台灣的穩定幣發行如果不要鎖百分之百的你說資產資產怎麼估資產有貶值的問題"},{"start":6357.591,"end":6384.064,"text":"那將來我的這個穩定幣的發行結果我的資產事實上我發行的時候100%那漲跌的時候要怎麼調整再來如果我跌的時候我的穩定幣還是發行在那邊那我的貨幣的總體供給就增加出來了另外在流通的時候我不用信貸幣交易我用穩定幣交易整體的貨如果你把它當作支付的工具當作貨幣的一個形式的話那整體的貨幣供給也是增加的"},{"start":6384.804,"end":6411.74,"text":"委員剛才講的這些都是非常非常深入的問題就是開放這樣的一個新的業種以後會產生什麼樣的影響這其實就是我們在日常開會還有找專家學者再仔細研商因為未來我們要定那個穩定幣的管理辦法包括剛才這些全部都要考慮這些問題而且我看到當然不是你的問題法務部的那個草案說到那個三年以上十年以下然後罰兩千萬到"},{"start":6414.23,"end":6418.617,"text":"幾千萬到兩億這個如果給你出一個包動輒金額是幾百億幾千億的你罰他們一點點這樣夠嗎"},{"start":6423.695,"end":6444.53,"text":"這個罰則的部分當然我們有提出來當然就是也要社會有共識看要做什麼而且這個如果出包那個包子大要小心所以它背後的一些封控像剛剛包括一些準備資產像剛剛委員提到那個準備資產的穩定程度還有對外的揭露還有一些平常的調控監控這都是"},{"start":6445.99,"end":6473.101,"text":"這個索性是國外已經有一段時間的經驗了那我們這部分我們剛好在後面再進來的人比較多可以參考我是覺得我個人如果我的理解是多參考一下當然有一幣要這麼急嗎這是一個考慮我們其實沒有急我剛剛跟委員講說我們但是不要落後第二我就要再提醒你一次一個問題前一陣子光是這個比特幣被震盪的那一下因為槓桿的關係很多人被清倉強制平倉就Clean"},{"start":6474.942,"end":6492.674,"text":"對 這也是剛剛有委員提到說要不要開放這些演商的商品有沒有所以我們就非常謹慎是 我要提醒你我再次提醒台灣人的特性賺錢沒有人會感謝政府集體賠的錢就要找你算帳 找你負責你一定要記得這個特性謝謝 謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":6507.535,"end":6517.923,"text":"主席在黨委員監禁列席的政府金管組長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請金管會彭主委還有央行的朱副總裁請彭主委朱副總裁"},{"start":6521.049,"end":6538.667,"text":"主委好當然今天有央行的題目先問一個時事的議題就是玉山金併購三商售居然有媒體的標題是說是摸黑交易因為根據我們證交所的相關處理程序重大投資它必須"},{"start":6540.929,"end":6554.405,"text":"要做一個重訓的發布那有人說玉山精英的團隊既然已經去投標去出具有法律約束力的文件那麼如果沒有經過董事會的決議這樣可以嗎金管會的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6555.185,"end":6577.939,"text":"我想我們相關的交易他們都是具有他們都非常清楚什麼叫公司治理我想這件事情我們已經責成交易所去主動去了解我剛才有委員詢問這個問題我會請交易所調查完畢再跟社會做報告因為這主要是交易所跟他們之間的這樣的契約關係我們一定要請交易所去跟他們做"},{"start":6578.459,"end":6598.945,"text":"是的我想不只一位委員關心表示這是一個大家都關心的議題所以請經管會一定要慎重處理那當然我們昨天在那個應該前天的記者會也表達這樣看法好謝謝那我們也期待調查後的結果好那麼三商售它的RVC如果沒有達標您覺得我們來推估預算金會溢價收購嗎"},{"start":6603.479,"end":6618.193,"text":"應該是我覺得我們在做帳務的財報的價值跟它未來持續經營的價值這兩個是有不同的看法我想為什麼每次的收購合併案都有所謂的溢價"},{"start":6619.094,"end":6640.745,"text":"就是那個持續經營價值的預期大家不同就等於說我們現在看到它的價值是一個所謂的進變現的概念就現在我做一個清償它價值多少但是我繼續經營就像我開一家餐廳我餐廳如果現在馬上清掉了我的資材設備就是值這麼多錢但是我長期經營假設我是個經營能力好的人我看到的價值是不一樣的"},{"start":6641.736,"end":6664.418,"text":"但是正是因為今晚會公布了一個ICS過渡措施所以三商售它就算是有合格了沒有 它就是必須對它以前資本的缺口完全不能消失是 所以它必須承諾那未來的接手的人他也必須要"},{"start":6665.619,"end":6684.126,"text":"蓋瓜承受所以這種情況之下願意溢價來併購的跟金管會在ICS過渡措施有關聯嗎我想這個他們是協商的過程金管會是不會介入我想這個是一個市場機制市場機制的判斷我們在這因為我們一定要等他開始他知道他蓋瓜承受了所以他知道心裡有譜"},{"start":6685.29,"end":6713.812,"text":"他當然再來他送件的時候比如說未來他們有送件的時候正式通過他們的這個所謂公私治理股東民主程序決議通過以後按照我們金控法的規定還有保險法的規定送到金管會我們就來看他這部分的承諾還有這些的內容好 謝謝那接下來請您暫時休息一下先不加消息那請副總裁來問一下聯準會之前我就問過總裁不過今天是副總裁來我就問說聯準會的降息跟台股的新高會不會有關聯那時候還沒降"},{"start":6714.933,"end":6722.904,"text":"那現在呢 林仁偉呢現在 聯儲會降啦那台股又創新高那到底有沒有關係呢是台股的體質好我們的出口產業強勁創新產業強勁 是什麼原因"},{"start":6726.934,"end":6755.318,"text":"有没有关联应该影响的因素很多很多但是如果我们真的台股很好外资也会进来买外资很愿意来买对 应该是这样但是因为外资大局进入那有人又说那央行的没收的这个汇率的升幅出手没收讲得很重但是我们都认为央行是要持续的因为我们台湾是出口导向那吻会很重要那这个汇率影响程度央行怎么运营"},{"start":6757.431,"end":6779.443,"text":"我應該這麼講其實外匯市場的匯率應該是市場供需決定很難預測但是我們看外資他進來買但外資在台股投資獲利很高他還有一個隨時將他的獲利匯出去所以對匯率的影響其實進來買好像是"},{"start":6782.591,"end":6796.099,"text":"一個方向 對它獲利馬上出去是一個方向所以你認為外資的進出台股的市場對於匯率的影響是一部分的不是全部的那央行要持續的穩匯這是我們的目標好 謝謝來往下看"},{"start":6799.381,"end":6814.542,"text":"那它穩定幣大家都問穩定幣的貨幣戰那麼美國它是由不具官方不發行官方的穩定幣但是歐盟的看法不同它為了擔心它的清算體系 資本流動還有跨境結算全面的美元化所以呢"},{"start":6815.543,"end":6836.124,"text":"歐盟是很積極那麼美國目前是兩大穩定幣商壟斷市場但是歐盟的做法我們台灣有一個數位性台幣CPTC那麼目前CPTC目前央行的規劃用的比較通俗是B2B沒有用在一般的民間那未來會不會繼續擴大跟歐盟的做法一樣"},{"start":6837.741,"end":6842.283,"text":"其實這個部分我們現在CVDC是在一個試驗的階段在研擬至於未來應該怎麼樣其實有各種可能性會不會擴大 謝局長我聽你講過問一下謝局長好了它有兩層所以主要它應該是在"},{"start":6858.549,"end":6863.293,"text":"央行的CPTC上層基本上它是跟金融機構之間的支付清算我們現在談的穩定幣這個部分是一般大眾這是很不一樣所以會不會CPTC擴大到一般當作是一種穩定幣謝局長我之前聽過你的一個介紹謝局長你解釋一下"},{"start":6881.207,"end":6899.825,"text":"我想就是分兩個叫做Retail的給大眾使用的一個是給Wholesale給做清算使用的目前因為我想我們目前不急迫去發行Retail的CBDC主要是因為現在的支付工具相當的多元也便利所以沒有急迫性所以目前比較急迫是在Wholesale做一個清算"},{"start":6900.285,"end":6917.068,"text":"我馬上問下一題 既然你這樣講已經進入了我們穩定幣的監理它有準備資產對不對高價值 高品質或高流動性像短期貸券或票券如果不是法幣樣態的是不是會用不是法幣樣態的來做穩定幣的準備資產美債 RWA會這樣嗎會不會把這些不是法幣樣態的來做為穩定幣的資產 準備資產"},{"start":6926.311,"end":6953.186,"text":"目前我們在那個法的規定主要是在給高流動性高安全的這個金融資產美債算不算美債可以啊RWA也可以如果是屬於符合合格的這種有監理的 有監管的這種金融資產很好 講到了來 現在我們要問有監管的來 監管會同事會來 知不知道這個事件加密通貨史上最大規模的清算事件因為川普宣布了對中國加徵百分之百結果加密通貨就11天 哇"},{"start":6954.691,"end":6980.848,"text":"因為基本上它是用非資產來做儲備的這個合成穩定幣它可以買進虛擬資產但是又賣出等值的期貨然後有Delta中性對沖後面的運作我們來看一下就是這樣的循環它已經不是用實體資產了它去抵押之後又拿到穩定幣又繼續買這樣合成資產這樣一直循迴循迴循迴它可以把它受益率推高到4成5成這樣的合成穩定幣的循環貸有什麼風險"},{"start":6982.25,"end":7001.802,"text":"我想我們在這次的我們的草案裡面就不包括這一塊了不包括這一塊不包括合成穩定幣 對是 好 那這樣我們就往下看了好 那麼剛剛我們提到對不起 往上看 對就是合成穩定幣它貶值會造成死亡螺旋這是不是也是因為這樣的關係所以我們今晚會不打算開放"},{"start":7002.649,"end":7017.279,"text":"當時我們在考慮的時候本來這個四大類的穩定幣的型態我們就選擇以法幣做連結以法幣 對但是剛剛央行說了這個美債這個我們的這個RWA他也可以考慮他是準備資產"},{"start":7018.3,"end":7035.76,"text":"那是準備資產就是背後比如說我發一個台幣穩定利率我背後的準備資產可以用什麼像USDT USDC它也不是用美金它是可能用他們短期的美債或是其他的工具就是流動性要高 安全性要好所以這個剛剛央行的問題就是這樣未來"},{"start":7037.341,"end":7065.284,"text":"是否開放合成穩定幣或以Delta中性對沖的虛擬資產您剛剛已經答了如果按照我們的草案通過應該是沒有這個那會不會開放虛擬資產的抵押或循環抵押也就不存在了就是我剛才提到假設未來因為虛擬資產說未來有新的業態的部分我們剛才講我們在專法也保留了一個立法上的可能性有其他金主管居然同意的虛擬資產業務所以未來如果會開放"},{"start":7066.758,"end":7087.785,"text":"會不會有什麼具體規範那當然每一個新的開放我們都會仔細的思考它所有的應該怎麼規範會非常謹慎來做這件事情那這裡面就剛講到的RWA技術驗證以具可行性那麼因為你們提到了說金環會已經有一個實驗小組也顯示了具有可行性那麼如果有三個領域一個要趕快有調適法規要有交易平台要跟國際連結"},{"start":7089.005,"end":7118.745,"text":"那未來如果開放會不會建立第三方的驗證機制來向購買者驗證資產價值我想RWA它比較特別一點其實剛剛有提到有人說其實穩定幣也是某種RWA但是就是說我們現在在那個專法草案裡面我們在定義裡面其實是把RWA排除在外的因為我們是把它另外的當作是因為它是連結到有價證券我們現在還是因為另外一個有價證券的方式在處理所以RWA的部分不會在這裡面除了穩定幣以外"},{"start":7120.546,"end":7128.372,"text":"RWE它是一個有實體世界資產的一個對 它就是一個孿生或是數位原生它的實體因為剛剛吳秉隆也問到了它的實體世界的資產價值重不重要"},{"start":7134.181,"end":7152.434,"text":"就是RWA它本質上它就是兩個是連動的就是它的分身就是我有一個股票它主要的目的是希望交易更有效率不受時間空間的限制但是這個穩定幣不一樣它倆是有點分離這個還是有點差別只是說它性質是很類似都有一個抵押資產在做一個"},{"start":7153.414,"end":7169.39,"text":"做一個back up這樣好 謝謝最後我們來看一下那麼立法院的法治局提出了虛擬資產的稅務規範因為既然是資產它會有交易也會未來有面臨到課稅的問題這個部分今晚會不會跟財政部提出說這個部分財政部是不是要來關心一下"},{"start":7170.07,"end":7187.718,"text":"這當然我想財政部據我所知他們應該也在做這個研究因為這個沖繩稅的部分我們不會在專法裡面釐定那財政部應該會根據他的性質跟他交易的屬性來釐清該課什麼樣的一個稅賦的制度好 謝謝主委 葉主席暫且我們到這謝謝謝謝中委員接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"},{"start":7201.902,"end":7208.118,"text":"主席各位烈士官員大家早主席有請金管會彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":7210.731,"end":7234.626,"text":"委員好主委好主委玉山金並山山壽這個併購案金款會應該要明確的來審核確保國內金融市場的穩定同時也保障全體投資人的權益這個你認同嗎當然這是我們法律上規定的這個在不管金控法保險法都有這個明確的規定對"},{"start":7236.047,"end":7260.789,"text":"但是玉山金並三商售這個市場矚目那實際影響股價的一個重大事件針對市場盛傳說玉山金沒通過董事會的授權就盡致的去談一個讓股價下崩7%這樣子的一個價格金管會說這是商業行為要等到收件後才去了解"},{"start":7261.895,"end":7284.896,"text":"確實跟委員剛才其實也有多位委員關心這個問題我剛才已經說明過他們在議價協商的過程當中其實像金管會最後是因為等到他們完成他的法律程序送件以後才能確定他的內容至於說他們市場上有關重訊該不該發 怎麼發這件事情我們已經折成交易所那是交易所跟他之間那金管會你容許這樣子的公司的治理行為嗎"},{"start":7285.777,"end":7297.576,"text":"公司治理他們都知道我們也對外說明了他們這些東西他們都有自己專業的判斷如果他真的不符規定該怎麼辦就怎麼辦我想我們在前天的記者會我們的同仁也跟對外說明"},{"start":7298.257,"end":7316.228,"text":"好 那我再請教現在最熱門的虛擬貨幣就是穩定幣這個不僅是美國現在各國都搶著要發行穩定幣主要就是要穩定國內貨幣主權台灣也不例外部分經濟學者對穩定幣的風險提出警告"},{"start":7318.029,"end":7333.922,"text":"2014年諾貝爾經濟學得主June Trow他撰文指出說穩定幣可能在金融壓力下會出現擠兌風險那它的安全性不應該被高估他並且批評美國對於儲備兌付與風險控管條文"},{"start":7339.486,"end":7366.96,"text":"不明確讓發行機構且這個發行機構缺乏銀行等級的一個資本跟流動性的要求所以恐怕會成為影子銀行體系的一環那今認為說支付系統應該由公共基礎設施主導穩定幣或許是金融創新的代表但他們可能會讓少數人致富卻讓整個金融體系承擔風險請問主委你對於"},{"start":7367.921,"end":7369.864,"text":"學者的這一段說話你有什麼看法"},{"start":7370.39,"end":7399.091,"text":"對於一個新興的這些的業務或是這樣的發展一定有很多不同的觀點我想這也是為什麼就是說最近很多的因為這個存在不是今天才存在但是為什麼各國政府在這時候要透過立法來做這件事情因為剛剛提到過去是潮盲發展的過程當中確實有像剛剛委員提到開始有一家銀行因為他儲備都在那邊發生擠兌的時候他這個就影響到他的那個所謂資產儲備的安全性那因為過去沒有監管所以大家也看到這個概念"},{"start":7399.671,"end":7420.653,"text":"市場使用的人已經這麼普遍的時候主管決定就應該站出來把這件事情把它規範化我想這也是解決這位他提的論點就是說風險一直存在但是我們要怎麼解決它對 所以主委這是一個很新的東西其實大多數人根本就不了解是的不了解 所以說這些金融體系可能面臨的風險之外同樣我更擔心的就是詐騙的問題"},{"start":7422.014,"end":7441.552,"text":"因為台灣已經變成詐騙天堂了對不對我們現在很多人都不敢接這個電話響起只要沒有顯示說是我的朋友或者是認識的人的話根本電話都不敢接那這種情況勢必會如果說穩定幣一推出那一定會有更多的詐團會藉由民眾不了解的這一段時間然後呢"},{"start":7443.895,"end":7461.731,"text":"來誘導他們進行這樣的投資就是假投資真詐騙那穩定幣極有可能會淪為洗錢詐騙工具之一所以未來台灣如果要發行穩定幣勢必要清楚地讓民眾知道什麼是穩定幣那它的功能是什麼還有它的使用方式是什麼這個宣導一定要做得夠清楚"},{"start":7464.433,"end":7482.606,"text":"這個部分所以主委再要請教主委你在跟央行合作的過程當中會針對穩定幣的一個準備資產管理資金流向還有返期前監管的方面提出更多的具體措施那當然 剛剛委員提到一個就是說我們對於金融教育還好這還有一段"},{"start":7483.487,"end":7494.735,"text":"那個不算短的時間可以來做準備做這些比如說未來真的專法通過我們做一個金融教育市場宣導我們講這一定會來做剛才提到就是說跟央行之間針對穩定幣因為這個確實關於我們兩個單位的"},{"start":7499.679,"end":7524.399,"text":"那個執掌所以這部分我們大概都有充分的協調跟合作這應該未來監管應該也不會有問題因為我們在過去很多銀行的業務本來就跟央行都是共管共治我想這個經驗大家都非常的順暢對啦其實穩定幣放在這個虛擬資產專法對不對對這部分在針對主要是不必要的風險尤其是大片的風險這是我最關心的就是我們也很關心對對對"},{"start":7525.86,"end":7540.855,"text":"在虛擬資產服務法草案的討論當中金管會如何平衡傳統金融業跟創新業者的角色並確保虛擬資產這個產業的多元發展跟競爭力可不可以請主委說明"},{"start":7541.115,"end":7570.335,"text":"所以我想這是一個也是一個大家要注意的問題就是說我們的銀行假設從它的歷史推演是非常非常久的歷史但是它整個過程當中它遇到非常非常多新的東西的衝擊比如說這是數位化的過程當中其實銀行也開始做轉型剛才講說其實未來假設我們的虛擬金融也出現的時候我們金融業也應該開始要去思考比如說我們最近在做個實驗就是請銀行來做虛擬資產的保管業務這是一個非常起始的動作"},{"start":7571.335,"end":7600.676,"text":"我未來如果要涉入這個不管你服務客戶也好或是你自行要參與要從保管來做這是最基本的再來就是我們也注意到說比如說我們在發行穩定幣的過程當中我們也讓銀行來參與還有就是我們在做這些RWA的部分的時候我們也是希望銀行來參與這件事情所以我們也是用漸進的方式也提醒我們銀行業者未來會怎麼樣大家都不知道但是一定要及早做準備那這樣的話才能因應否則等到整個環境變了你再突然來做我覺得那個成本高風險也更大"},{"start":7601.178,"end":7623.697,"text":"是的 所以我想這個創新跟這個傳統的部分他要如何讓他有發展力然後能夠平衡能夠有一個發展的空間這金管會要更加的著力確實那個人講這個非常重要因為其實整個金融體系這麼龐大那怎樣讓他能夠順利的因應各種的變化我想我們金管會一定會努力來做"},{"start":7624.403,"end":7647.412,"text":"那當然我們最在意就是說避免說未來市場上有持續更多持續更多的不法交易這部分就是我們要避免的那詐騙行為一定要嚴防 是好不好這次也是我們有個執法是專門針對這個對對對 好了謝謝主委 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝委員接下來有請李昭偉昆城委員"},{"start":7656.903,"end":7660.406,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請彭主委好 又請彭主委委員好來 主委好這個三商美幫人受了招親案這個消息滿天飛剛才很多委員也很關心然後從這個10月17號的深夜開始到28號的上午11個小時內三家公司陸續發布重訊"},{"start":7682.743,"end":7703.576,"text":"市場也解讀說已經介入了最終的結局中信金的重訓是投標案已結束玉山金跟三商壽強調對市場傳聞不予評論請教一下主委您知道說現在有關玉山金跟三商壽的合併案的過程 您有瞭解嗎"},{"start":7704.232,"end":7726.518,"text":"我想整個過程站在一個金融主管機關我們當然是全程掌握但是因為這邊各個案我們不方便透露其中的細節所以你有全程掌握就對了那當然好 那有全程掌握我就再請教了因為現在有兩個問題其實剛剛很多委員有在問但是我認為主委或是銀行局或是政情局都沒有答得很清楚就是說第一個"},{"start":7727.478,"end":7750.299,"text":"到底董事會有沒有授權這個溢價來投標如果說董事會有授權溢價跟投標是屬於重大轉投資的決議那依法應該要公告如果確定交易對象跟金額沒有公告就違反了重訓的規範第二個 董事會至今尚未召開"},{"start":7751.58,"end":7779.779,"text":"如果出具 據法律約書裡的文件參與投標涉及到公司治理正當性的問題這兩個 一個就是有關這個是不是屬於重大的一個訊息要發布然後另外一個是涉及到公司治理的問題請教主委 第一個它這個是不是涉及到重大的訊息必須要公布因為後來是我們金管會去催他們"},{"start":7780.68,"end":7807.473,"text":"他們才發布重大的訊息嗎金管會不會去催這個事情因為這是他跟交易所之間交易所對於在我這邊上市櫃的公司我要求他們再做一些資訊透明他這裡面有努力的所以是交易所去要求他們要發布訊息嗎對 所以說有 那外界有這個問題那主要是媒體報導以後我想我們也請交易所交易所也主動的去應該所以是你們請交易所交易所請他們那就差不多就是你們要要求的"},{"start":7808.253,"end":7828.867,"text":"這本來交易所就該做我們是交易所的主管機關當然會請他去做而且我們也跟你講這個結果要請交易所對外說明所以這個是不是要屬於要發布的重大訊息那他們沒有發布這個是不是重大訊息是由他們來判斷還是由交易所跟他們之間來說認定比如說那主委認不認為這個是重大的訊息"},{"start":7831.024,"end":7836.992,"text":"我覺得我應該要這個情況的話我在這邊不方便去講不是 我們按照規定就按照這個相關的規定來看這個是不是很重大的訊息"},{"start":7842.622,"end":7862.853,"text":"不過這個部分我剛才講說這個確實我這邊沒有辦法站在經管會立場去說明因為這個事實的情況非常複雜你也是監理機關第一個我也沒有參與他們的協商我也沒有參與這個內容還有整個過程就是在我們想法裡面就很簡單這個合併案前面這個它是不是屬於51種上市公司必須公告的事項"},{"start":7863.769,"end":7887.39,"text":"我想它裡面有一項說會有影響什麼什麼的這個對啊 對上市公司股東權益或證券價格有重大影響對不對這個牽涉到當時的判斷我想有關重券的發布那主委也應該是認為說是有影響才會叫證那個證交所再去因為輿論已經有媒體報導這邊市場這樣我們當然機器主管就說你是交易所是主政單位你當然要去處理對 這當然是啊 這個我們"},{"start":7890.175,"end":7912.624,"text":"我剛才幾位委員我也說過開記者會的時候政企局的副局長有說過這東西有爭議性證交所就會去查證那目前有查證嗎有啊那查證的結果是什麼沒有 我剛才講說交易所查證完他會對外說明那到現在三天的時間了那就我們會再請交易所進行查證所以這個要查多久啊"},{"start":7914.025,"end":7941.278,"text":"這個我就會請交易所盡快去做證件這個我說已經三天了那作為金管會你是監理機關你認為說是幾天查出來是合乎規定的沒有 我想交易所在處理這已經非常非常有經驗因為這個對 就像你講的其實規定都很清楚該不該發布重大訊息這其實都有規範那三天時間你們查不出來不是我們查 是交易所我們會那政經局局長有去查嗎"},{"start":7946.783,"end":7974.481,"text":"對 一樣我們剛才已經 剛才講而且交易所應該是有請他們不是 我要請張局長答一下有去查嗎這個這一段在查核中的事情在查核中 哪時候會有結果等到事實的時間看到結果才能夠判斷什麼結果才能夠判斷我當然知道我的意思是說你們要多久的時間依照一般程序我們就會進行處理一般程序大概是幾天"},{"start":7976.318,"end":7996.639,"text":"應該在一週內吧我再問一下主委 這個到底因為外界形容說這個是摸黑交易那個標題是媒體下的你是監理機關 你要做個說明那到底這個有沒有經過這個Binding offer有沒有經過董事會的授權"},{"start":7998.564,"end":8021.338,"text":"我想在整個交易的過程當中有各種不同的授權的型態他們如果說這些他們是一個上市會公司他應該按照規定該怎麼對外說明就按照這個來說明不是 因為剛剛主委一直強調說這個公司都會這個有公司治理的相關規定他們都知道如果大家都知道也有遵守的話其實這個金管會也不用那麼辛苦了"},{"start":8021.858,"end":8041.02,"text":"金管會的存在就是說對於公司治理有問題的地方你們要提出監管我們不會在一個事情我們完全沒有釐清的情況就在這邊先下結論所以剛剛講過我們是尊重它的體制因為這個重訓的發布是剛剛有不是做重訓的發布現在重訓發布是另外一個另外一個就是說那到底"},{"start":8042.339,"end":8067.922,"text":"這個董事會提出了這一個Binding offer有沒有經過這個董事會的決議或同意是這件事情因為涉及到公司治理的問題他們在協商的過程當中不需要跟主管機關說明這些事情我想說他們未來如果正式要送件他要仔細的說明他整個程序是符合的這時候他們就要自己要去所以他們送過來的時候你們就會去檢查說"},{"start":8069.264,"end":8085.662,"text":"當初的這段過程到底有沒有經過董事會的決議就對了它所有的文件裡面應該要符合我們的規定假設比如說按照媒體的那個說明它是會按照金空法第26條裡面該送的文件所有的這些過去都非常那如果啦如果"},{"start":8087.284,"end":8103.175,"text":"這個玉山金他們沒有舉行董事會但是相關的人員他提交具備法律約束力的這個交易價格跟換股比例的話你要這樣子這個最後也收購了那把這些資料送到金管會那這樣子有符合相關的規定嗎"},{"start":8103.715,"end":8119.504,"text":"金管會的要求就是根據金控法假設是根據26條他必須董事會做成決議經過他們的股東大會決議雙方做成股份轉換契約書檢送相關的這些書件送金管會審查那所以如果沒有經過董事會決議"},{"start":8120.749,"end":8143.209,"text":"對 它是必要的程序這個法條寫得非常清楚所以如果沒有開過董事會然後自行提交這些具有法律約束力的這個交易的價格那是像金管會送件的要求他們前面是他的協商程序對我意思就是說如果沒有經過董事會決議的話那這個程序有符合你們的標準嗎"},{"start":8143.669,"end":8165.457,"text":"沒有 我剛才講說前面的部分是他們協商他最後送過來的時候他必須明確的完成公司治理的程序還有我們法規的要求的程序那所以有媒體形容這一段沒有經過董事會決議是摸黑交易那主委怎麼評論沒有 這應該是他們自己去澄清這是他們自己因為實際上這個這也不是要他們自己去澄清你作為監理機關你也有"},{"start":8165.757,"end":8189.371,"text":"你有這個資格去要求我們沒有立場幫他代達這個問題你不是代達這個問題我要求的是一個市場秩序公司管理的問題沒有 如果他以後他的這些的不完備他當然不能送件而且送件我們也會提出質疑好 今天的書面報告包含內政部警政署主委有看過嗎有"},{"start":8190.956,"end":8217.73,"text":"有 有看過 如果有看過我看了警政署 刑事檢察局他提到很多的困境這些困境 有六點困境第一個就是說金管會公佈已經不得提供虛擬資產服務的原來的沒有合格的這些洗錢防治法的這些業者他們後續的相關的資料"},{"start":8218.61,"end":8237.117,"text":"也沒有規範要保存恐怕成為偵辦的斷點然後金管也要求VASP要定期通報使用的錢包地址但是不肖業者沒有如實申報然後警察機關也沒有VASP所屬錢包的地址的資料追求不法金流不知道向哪一家業者調閱資料"},{"start":8238.197,"end":8266.152,"text":"然後這些如果是來自於境外高風險交易所這個業者也恐涉及申報虛假的資料然後沒有開立發票沒有按照實際的交易金額開立發票實際難以比對然後還有如果是大額交易通報的調閱只有匯款人的身分沒有以VASP公司為名的條件來調閱他們遇到這些困境主委要怎麼去處理"},{"start":8266.932,"end":8295.085,"text":"沒有 我想這個警政署應該是善意的提醒善意的提醒因為我看他寫遭遇的困境我想說利用這個機會讓你回答一下能不能解決這個第一線的偵辦人員的困境仔細看一下我們條文草案裡面其實這些比如說第一項的資料保存我明明已經寫得非常清楚要保存5年而且如果說涉犯這個糾紛要持續的保存我想這個都沒有問題對 還有像比如說剛剛那個發票的部分那是財政部的事情"},{"start":8295.905,"end":8309.655,"text":"他要去做 他要去向大和申報那應該跟法務部調查局去做我想這些部分 我覺得所以他遭遇了這六項困境都有辦法處理嗎可以處理 這些其實我們規範裡面都有麻煩你給我一個書面資料好了好不好沒問題 這個其實規範裡面都有因為他們在現場 你沒有時間讓他們講"},{"start":8315.279,"end":8333.511,"text":"如果他們講 因為他們在第一線遭遇到這些問題我想他們是善意的提醒其實這裡面都有因為我們在開會都有邀請各個單位一起所以是他們沒有進入情況嗎不是 他是善意的提醒希望說未來能夠強化這些東西你把書面資料給我其實未來規範其實都有好 沒關係 先把這個書面資料給我好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝張偉霖接下來有請黃委員33直選"},{"start":8348.376,"end":8350.896,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請彭主委請彭主委委員好是 主委早早我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產那接下來你們要送你們的專法過來那現在申請來做所謂的虛擬資產服務商的相關的登記那也經過你們公告目前是原來的20幾家現在只有9家通過 對吧"},{"start":8374.801,"end":8400.133,"text":"原來20幾家剩8家那其中有一家是新申請的OK 所以是8家那25家只剩8家原因是什麼原因很多我想在過去這段時間來看各位看到有些是涉犯一些不法行為有些是因為我們的標準提高它無法符合所以一家新的不是原來的然後來申請那它是境外的還是國內的都是境內"},{"start":8401.934,"end":8416.914,"text":"那我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":8417.535,"end":8438.641,"text":"我想剛才也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他們未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記"},{"start":8440.529,"end":8465.703,"text":"我想境外當然是第一個因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文 這才是問題主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚 審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試"},{"start":8467.404,"end":8472.651,"text":"但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準"},{"start":8477.762,"end":8501.361,"text":"八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少實售資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎"},{"start":8501.701,"end":8525.729,"text":"我們實收資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣呢"},{"start":8527.509,"end":8551.1,"text":"主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是 我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚"},{"start":8553.321,"end":8579.274,"text":"我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會 不會 規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一 我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好 那個正當合法是 我同意我們希望正當合法的對 現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後"},{"start":8580.474,"end":8600.403,"text":"我們有什麼意見我只有說規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣進來登記的送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦我想這不會說願意來被你管的盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說因為這樣的國人他才找得到對象他想要被管就請他好好的來登記"},{"start":8606.545,"end":8623.547,"text":"只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯 我們想要不要讓他再境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他這才奇怪但是你就要符合我們的要求同意 所以標準清楚一致"},{"start":8624.148,"end":8643.77,"text":"第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請"},{"start":8644.591,"end":8667.798,"text":"是 我們是希望它來適用這個法規而不是用法規把它排在外面不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎"},{"start":8669.806,"end":8683.611,"text":"應該講說它不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為它將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的"},{"start":8684.431,"end":8698.917,"text":"確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做多少的如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要有資本氏族的規範"},{"start":8699.717,"end":8723.668,"text":"是 所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對 我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯"},{"start":8724.528,"end":8754.008,"text":"所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者"},{"start":8754.748,"end":8771.245,"text":"對 我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態保管的 借貸的 譬如說保管商的風險跟譬如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對 這些都要把它定清楚所以我之前有講過嘛譬如說像我們看到"},{"start":8774.028,"end":8798.024,"text":"美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備"},{"start":8798.624,"end":8816.638,"text":"有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多電我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的對 我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來辦你覺得信託就夠了沒有 我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託"},{"start":8818.779,"end":8834.557,"text":"沒有 只有法幣打就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產因為只有法幣打我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了委員提醒很多次了這有關當一個"},{"start":8836.96,"end":8844.962,"text":"不會只有他放個信託就會沒事對 機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把"},{"start":8862.046,"end":8881.48,"text":"既然它可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持它一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償 能夠找得到人"},{"start":8881.88,"end":8906.543,"text":"那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者"},{"start":8907.083,"end":8922.384,"text":"希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路"},{"start":8924.727,"end":8952.169,"text":"不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊"},{"start":8953.528,"end":8979.842,"text":"那管的都可能有問題了不納管的更找不到人規則清楚是我們應該做的我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝委員的建議謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"},{"start":8995.194,"end":8998.439,"text":"謝謝主席 我請金管委彭主委好 我們請彭主委"},{"start":9001.345,"end":9026.475,"text":"委員好這個去年你一上任那時候你就確認了說我們金管會會來訂定我們台灣首部的虛擬資產業管理法這非常的好而且你們確實也做了那也在今年的6月27號就把這個案子那就送到行政院去審查"},{"start":9027.855,"end":9054.716,"text":"這個案子的內容當然就專法這個內容包括消費者的保護包括市場交易的行為規範包括他們這個資產保管包括消費者的保護這些都非常的好業者的許可條件這些都是專法裡面所訂定這非常好可是從送進去到現在將近四個月了"},{"start":9056.08,"end":9081.575,"text":"那個主委你們有沒有跟行政院就是溝通一下有是什麼原因現在進度到底為何有碰到什麼困難嗎其實剛剛提到就是我們在其實我們送進去行政院很快就開會開會因為這會試射很多的單位他就提了很多很多的問題叫我們回去再來研商我們再把這個內容又修改提出來"},{"start":9082.475,"end":9099.682,"text":"又開了一次會大家就是其實我們都緊鑼密鼓的在進行這個討論有在緊鑼密鼓畢竟是新的東西有跟他們盯這個案子的審查有跟他們盯著就對了那你那個大概會在什麼時候你覺得行政院會合可"},{"start":9100.929,"end":9119.355,"text":"這個部分如果說就我個人的觀察因為同仁跟我回報就是說現在大家一些有比較重大的爭議的地方其實不多都是未來執行上大家細節因為這部法律重點會在未來執法怎麼去做一個比較詳細嚴密的制定當然制定的過程"},{"start":9121.181,"end":9136.471,"text":"為什麼我們現在要先求有為什麼比方說在這一段時間裡面我們金管有先推VSP法尊聲明有也確實有做登記那也26家業者來登記可是現在26家業者已經有18家"},{"start":9142.975,"end":9159.84,"text":"已經被我們認為就把它除名掉不行 它不合格這裡面有三家是嚴重的洗錢詐騙你看像有一家像去年4月這個王牌數位的負責人光他一件就3億4千萬"},{"start":9162.625,"end":9187.654,"text":"那去年底還有這個必享科技這個詐騙33億之多啦33億之多總共這三件加起來加起來六七十億有六七十億這麼大的金額那所以你們就剔除了這18家所以我認為既然專法要加強內控"},{"start":9189.235,"end":9207.112,"text":"那加強內控就是說要查核開戶的目的查核開戶人的身份虛擬幣的流向的追蹤等等在這一個部分我們的專法裡面有沒有特別針對這個KYC的部分去做加強監管"},{"start":9209.861,"end":9227.831,"text":"我剛才有報告我們的執法我們有特別針對一個內控內積的做一個專門執法我想在金融界人都知道我們金融機構的內控內積是一個非常重要而且非常綿密的一個管理的模式我想我們會這部分一定會像委員講我們會來強化"},{"start":9229.352,"end":9256.057,"text":"還有就剛才講說比如說我們針對那個疑似不法交易詐騙我們會另外一個執法來專門來做這個規範這個虛擬的我們當然該查該管但是實質的存在我們銀行的款項你看像到現在為止我們國人存在國內銀行有超過60兆台幣那麼這些錢裡面我上回就提過了"},{"start":9257.538,"end":9264.323,"text":"我提過就是說針對中央銀行他有頒布一筆針對不動產的部分他認為不動產我們銀行的錢 大眾的資金不應該幫建商"},{"start":9273.511,"end":9293.133,"text":"去炒作土地所以訂啦也就是說你貸款去建商要貸款可以要興建的這OK但是這個貸款過去的金額不能超過18個月都沒有動超過一年半沒有開工那表示說這建商根本買這個土地"},{"start":9294.855,"end":9318.867,"text":"是去炒地皮的不是這樣嗎那結果我那時候發現說這裡面金額最大的土地銀行最多土地銀行竟然不動產貸款裡面在前年底總共他貸了一兆4805億出去那到去年3月底"},{"start":9320.926,"end":9340.865,"text":"18個月沒有動工的從前年的1173億那當時你有要求他們改善那改善的結果他還剩下802億這麼多並沒有實質去要求推動就等於幫助當了草地皮的幫兇"},{"start":9342.878,"end":9368.596,"text":"等於建商要去炒房價現在房價這麼高漲土地銀行這麼專業的土地銀行竟然做了幫兇同樣的當時的台銀18個月沒有動工的有142億但是人家同樣的15個月以後到去年3月底到今年3月底人家只剩38億"},{"start":9370.578,"end":9389.248,"text":"等於台銀在你要求了以後他大幅度的去做了改善他要回了7成只剩3成還在繼續追蹤土地銀行剛好相反1173億他只去處理了3成還有高達7成800億"},{"start":9397.854,"end":9405.531,"text":"還在幫建商我搞不懂耶土英這些傢伙在幹什麼他還是土地專業的銀行耶"},{"start":9407.779,"end":9429.722,"text":"所以我搞不懂這兩家同樣百分之百關股同樣百分之百要受我們金管會不打緊還有財政部這麼嚴密的監管之下結果上有命令他下有對策還繼續在跟這些二職的建商勾結"},{"start":9431.246,"end":9443.617,"text":"不可思議耶所以彭主委這一點你是不是要回去趕快交辦多久時間內要土地男給個交代我會回去跟財政部跟央行趕快來言商"},{"start":9446.024,"end":9472.815,"text":"再跟委員報告一下因為你跟莊部長財政部莊部長你們也常會碰面那九大公營行庫裡面這九大的董事長總經理都莊部長派的你可以請莊部長協助查一查土地銀行到底在幹什麼這麼明目張膽我們立法委員在立法院公開質詢他"},{"start":9476.109,"end":9505.479,"text":"它稳稳不动这个是不是要积极办理 好不好那另外我们国内我们37家银行手续费从过去2461亿那增加到3156亿他们的获利增加这个是很好我们不嫉妒这些银行他们做该做的事应有的收入这是应当但是这么高的手续费的增加这代表了一件事情"},{"start":9506.806,"end":9535.734,"text":"就是說不但招攬的風險增加了他去不當招攬很多買賣這種相關的金融商產品所謂的理財讓存款戶去買了這些理財的產品風險就增加所以我認為我們對這一個部分要加強稽查因為在我看到的比方說"},{"start":9539.57,"end":9540.794,"text":"這個這一部分的控管裡面"},{"start":9542.984,"end":9557.829,"text":"你們說爭議有減少了從前年的1390件佔國內銀行爭議案件的38%有降到16.3%這一點我是肯定你們金管會確實有做事有針對這個在監管但是這個減少會不會還有一種情況是他們的話術變更高明了更會變"},{"start":9570.899,"end":9596.741,"text":"理財專員憑他三寸不爛之舌把存款戶辛苦血汗錢就這樣又騙過去了騙到一些風險很高的金融產品上面所以這一個部分因為有實際的案例出現實際的案例光是和庫銀行過去我們都知道我們都認為和庫銀行是規規矩矩最老實的銀行之一"},{"start":9597.722,"end":9616.093,"text":"他本來乖乖取取老老實實的再次在金融圈這個大展崗裡面學壞了你們光是你們光是今年你看就抓到他兩屆才發了他八十萬才發的理由他這個幫客戶幫銀行辦理理財講座業務不實"},{"start":9623.887,"end":9648.941,"text":"還有什麼對保險公司照會涉及異常招標案件沒有建立異常招攬太陽管理機制你看這麼明顯有的案子還是竟然他們說有去辦招攬說明會但是招攬說明會原來是假的"},{"start":9651.075,"end":9673.829,"text":"只有留下檔案 會議紀錄根本完全沒有所以我們很多存款人那很多金融消費者在這一個部分他們是無辜的嘛因為我們全民存款人365行不一定每個人對理財這個有專業所以都會信任銀行金融機構這些理財專員"},{"start":9675.49,"end":9689.479,"text":"結果如果這些理財專員自己不懂不打緊存著壞心眼堅守治道的結果就害慘了我們國內所有的金融消費者我們可憐的"},{"start":9690.649,"end":9704.685,"text":"存款的人所以這一個部分我認為要加強監管好不好再老實如何做金庫子都會學壞所以這一點我們要謹記在心好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請葛禄君委員"},{"start":9726.442,"end":9733.587,"text":"謝謝主席有請監管會彭主委以及央行朱副總裁謝謝我們請彭主委朱副總裁委員好謝謝主委還有央行我想在此先感謝這邊都對台幣穩定幣表達開放 支持 審慎友好尤其彭主委勇於認識對於這樣的一個新科技跟新的產業審慎友好我們要再次感謝"},{"start":9755.72,"end":9784.559,"text":"今天想要問一下目前我們鄰近的幾個國家日本 新加坡 韓國都有自身的穩定幣或即將推出JPYC更是在10月27號可以說是正式推出他們有瞄準目標三年內流通市值要達10兆日元大概650億美元想請教一下主委對於我們台幣穩定幣有沒有一個具體的目標預計多少年內要到達多少市值有沒有一個相關的想法"},{"start":9785.9,"end":9806.622,"text":"跟我們報告因為其實我想在從國際貨幣的市佔率來看的話我覺得我們在台幣穩定幣我們確實必須非常務實的說我們確實在國際的貨幣上面跟美元跟日元或是跟其他的歐元還是有段距離所以我們在這部分我們現在在規劃還是在建制度"},{"start":9807.883,"end":9820.711,"text":"我們現在沒有針對這個做一個未來的預想好 謝謝主委不過我想接下來還是希望政府要確立一定的目標目標可以不要太高遠但是可以務實這樣才能夠讓我們相關的執法有夠連動"},{"start":9824.733,"end":9852.834,"text":"然後呢在目標明確的情況之下我們才能夠設計更多的配套我覺得是可以大膽的來設立目標那另外呢也想請教一下因為現在這個行政院一直還沒有把草案的版本送進來有一些說法呢說這個央行是不是有一些顧慮但是呢我們之前又問了央行總裁他說我們就跟這個彭主委都有很好的互動不過我還是要在這裡給央行一個機會啦就是我們理解其實穩定幣"},{"start":9854.395,"end":9880.962,"text":"有可能一旦打通了這個台幣穩定幣跟美元穩定幣的流通很可能會影響到這個外匯的量體那台灣我們算是一個外匯管制的一個狀態我想是不是給央行一個機會你們有沒有什麼樣的顧慮有沒有什麼concern可不可以提出來因為其實業界現在很擔心你如果說你有擔憂所以想要晚一點大家也就接受你如果覺得沒有擔憂那我們就快一點"},{"start":9881.562,"end":9899.322,"text":"其實在這個薛丁格的狀態是大家最擔心的因為有些產業會提前投入結果到最後門又沒有開這其實會造成產業資源的浪費央行這邊副總裁能不能稍微提一下有沒有顧慮哪些顧慮也許就提出來嘛我們也許就了解一下讓產業可以找一點因應這樣子"},{"start":9902.437,"end":9910.72,"text":"其實我們跟金管會是密切合作都支持這樣的穩定幣的推動但即使沒有穩定幣央行目前就跨境移動這個部分我們有一些要申報資料照外匯管理這個做所以將來如果的確有比如說類似美元穩定幣這個部分我們還是會依照現在的規則"},{"start":9932.509,"end":9953.547,"text":"我們局長大概還有一些補充意見我想我們在跟金管溝通過程都很順暢所以我們的意見都有提供給他們的我想主要是因為除了所謂的央行的業務之外還有洗錢房子還有這些詐騙的案子這些我覺得後續都是在行政委裡面做討論的所以可能有一段時間需要做這樣的一個溝通好"},{"start":9954.688,"end":9968.863,"text":"我想這個更多的訊息早一點多一點的跟我們的業界來溝通不要有這種隱含的顧慮我想這樣也不好其實大家都會願意來配合央行跟金管會這邊那我想外匯的部分我也表達一下從技術的角度來看其實這個所謂的貨幣的交換"},{"start":9973.207,"end":9996.93,"text":"有穩定幣的形式存在反而它的帳本是更清晰更清楚更容易追溯的我認為甚至有可能對於外匯的適度管制上面不見得比較差反而比較好這一點跟各位交換一下意見那也希望我們能夠用創新的思維來擁抱這些新的科技跟技術那另外還有一點就是這個我們這個外匯剛剛已經提過了"},{"start":9998.471,"end":10017.441,"text":"另外一個是我們關於穩定幣的發行其實有提到在境外發行的穩定幣要取得主管機關的同意其實我們有看到日本也是用類似的做法可是我們也思考到像日本的人口1.24億其實台灣的市場也相對的小"},{"start":10019.702,"end":10048.002,"text":"那你說到時候國外已經流通的USDT USDC是不是又要請他們的發行商又要是不是來落地又要來驗資然後又要主管機關許可這個過程可能會很繁複別人也不一定第一時間把台灣當作第一優先的市場到時候又變成這些東西還沒有許可大家都還在流通人人違法很可能還會出現假USDT假USDC這個部分主委有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":10048.402,"end":10073,"text":"是不是能夠有一些更加彈性的機制在執法裡面來設立謝謝謝謝委員剛剛提到那個法條母法的那個條文裡面確實提到因為我們發行穩定幣也是一個監理主權的象徵所以我們今天既然我們對國人發行要同意那當然不可能對外國人沒有做這個要求我想我們會按照考慮到務實實用的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":10075.262,"end":10087.632,"text":"這不會是個障礙我們只要完全大家是站在一個公平一致的基礎上來做正事好 主席我最後爭取幾秒鐘的時間這個想跟央行還有主委這邊分享現在這個國家貨幣風起雲湧"},{"start":10091.294,"end":10114.54,"text":"這個全球的政府都在想要持有比特幣作為一個風險的對沖那我們現在單押在單一貨幣的量體有一點太高了這很可能會導致我們在技術上變成所謂的single point of failure這個風險會太高那其實也有一些國家比特幣持有的量很少也沒有關係開始做就好"},{"start":10115.06,"end":10133.91,"text":"那加上比特幣的來源不一定要購買有的國家也是從這個查獲不法所得他如果沒有要返還受害者的一個狀態也可以直接就變成國家的儲備之一我也希望這個央行跟金管會這邊有沒有機會未來能不能就這個議題也稍微討論一下簡單的答覆我們會遵照委員的指示會繼續去研究"},{"start":10145.244,"end":10151.486,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝子綺 謝謝主委 謝謝副總裁 謝謝謝謝各位議員接下來我們請吳宗憲委員麻煩主委我們請彭主委委員好"},{"start":10174.189,"end":10178.729,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10184.889,"end":10205.206,"text":"好 那我現在直接開始主委我在這邊跟您說明一件事情就當人民的錢被騙走的時候人民只在乎一件事就是錢拿不拿得回來只要沒有辦法幫他拿回來錢拿回來的話那他就會覺得政府就是廢物在人民的眼中他只在乎錢拿不拿得回來"},{"start":10206.383,"end":10233.079,"text":"我想有沒有好的管理這就是您的責任這您應該非常的清楚我想請問一下因為我去年我就有質詢相關的議題了我想軍管會從去年說要打造亞洲的資產管理中心一個最簡單的問題請問虛擬資產是不是也在管理的範圍內虛擬資產在目前沒有目前沒有"},{"start":10235.014,"end":10255.354,"text":"我去年的時候去年我去年我有跟你提到就是說台灣目前投資虛擬市場大概有八成的交易都在境外交易所這個您知道吧知道那這個部分現在在您有什麼積極作為可以請您現在告訴我嗎"},{"start":10256.158,"end":10272.972,"text":"我想這個就是我們要訂定專訪一個很重要的過程因為現在大部分因為他透過境外的時候其實我們的轄管是沒辦法對這個做任何的這樣一個比如說管理但是我跟你說我看到你們的那個草案但你們那個草案還是管不到這八成的市場"},{"start":10274.193,"end":10292.496,"text":"對不對我想這不是只有台灣會面臨到的問題你不能這樣講我們也在努力但是我們要先解決國內的這些我們業者民眾更容易接觸到的市場你至少要讓國人知道有80%國人的投資是我幫不了你的"},{"start":10293.056,"end":10316.758,"text":"其实不是这样看我跟你说我不喜欢政府干一件事情政府常干一件事情就是说他常告诉国人说没问题有政府都可以值得信任结果事情发生之后又做不到那我今天很担心的一个就是说会不会我们告诉国人让国人误以为他今天去投资这些虚拟货币虚拟资产就到最后他认为被骗了以后政府也会帮他忙但是几乎都拿不回来"},{"start":10317.358,"end":10344.5,"text":"他到那一刻才發現原來我的政府沒有辦法幫我我是希望說這個在宣傳的時候你必須要告訴國人你不要讓國人誤以為你有這個能力所有投資教育 金融教育這個都是要同步來進行所以現在我看到了你們草案第一個是管不到那個國人80%投資的那個市場你管不到那再來您的草案裡面雖然有提到一些未來如果他是境外納管的話我們就會管理得到"},{"start":10345.38,"end":10374.2,"text":"當然啦但是問題是你有沒有辦法納管他嘛他如果來申請落地剛才像那個也有委員提到就是說境外的這些的VASP他願意在台灣來納管他當然就會受到這樣的不是那你就是被動我今天講的主軸是被動好不好他願意來我才有辦法管他他不願意來人民繼續被騙所以我們在那個第四條裡面有加上一個叫國際合作這是我們希望預留個空間因為確實這件事情是我全世界共同來面對的問題"},{"start":10375.48,"end":10398.757,"text":"好 那沒關係啦你再推謝謝 謝謝委員的提醒那我跟你講那你就直接告訴人民直接告訴人民那80%真的不是我們能夠幫你的忙請不要投資你就只能這樣做啦你不能一方面講你要做什麼管理中心另外一方面什麼都做不到我跟你講啦你剛剛講的那個沒有錯啦他願意來納管的話但是呢現在那80%的這些境外交易所他也沒有主動向我們這邊台灣這邊來招攬或打廣告"},{"start":10402.159,"end":10423.879,"text":"是我們這裡台灣人自己上網去搜尋去那邊從事交易的所以你們也管不了你也說如果他願意來你被動的才能夠納管嘛對不對假設我們當我們開始納管台灣已經有非常安全的交易平台他購買是相同的標的 相同的服務我想這也是導引我們現在國人走向合規化"},{"start":10425.06,"end":10448.695,"text":"就剛才講說委員所關心的問題就會被縮小但是我聽來聽去還是沒有辦法管理你要他主動來那你只能消極的被動看他要不要來除此之外你完全沒有你對他沒有辦法那你有沒有辦法凍結那80%的這些投資的境外交易所我想委員是法律專家非常清楚這個是有困難的"},{"start":10449.195,"end":10474.893,"text":"对 就是有困难所以你要告诉国人这才是重点我跟你说我这边看到的114年9月18号的那个你们会后的一些记者会的资料现在台湾虚拟交易已经到550亿美金了尤其2023 6月到2024 6月这一年的期间已经达到这么高那我们投资那个人的比例也从去年的12%上升到今年的24%也就是说"},{"start":10475.353,"end":10502.911,"text":"这个投资的数字一直在往上飙那我再跟你说因为时间的关系我直接跟你讲我现在还是认为这80%还是是境外之地无从管理但是你看一下我们邻近的一些对手日本韩国新加坡他们都有设专法在管理所以我现在看到的是每天我们国人被骗有3亿元但是我们什么都做不了我们对国外的一些韩巡也都石沉大海这我很清楚我以前韩巡国外也都石沉大海"},{"start":10503.371,"end":10530.703,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法落地替捐款的這個東西你還是得要讓國人知道嘛我管不了但是我要讓國人知道我真的是管不了那像日本他之前就那個2022年的那個FTX那個破產那件事你一定很清楚日本政府就有幫他們國人爭取到而且要回很多錢我們國家有沒有辦法做到當然我知道國際很困境但是這不是構成理由就回到我剛第一句話"},{"start":10532.183,"end":10547.149,"text":"人民被騙錢他只在乎政府有沒有幫他拿回錢拿了回錢你就是好政府拿不回錢他只會罵你是笨蛋罵你是廢物他不會在乎你到底問題出在哪裡好不好所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們要對這些"},{"start":10548.41,"end":10577.111,"text":"能夠有在台灣能夠可用可查可凍結的這加密貨幣市場秩序麻煩你們還是要建立起來這個不行的話就告訴國人我做不到不要讓國人以為政府管得了他投資了被騙那一天才知道原來政府管不了這是我在辦公室整天聽到的訊息好不好好謝謝我想保護那個消費者是我們的職責沒有什麼麻煩我們會來朝這方向來努力那就要納管啦好謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請羅明才委員"},{"start":10582.711,"end":10604.322,"text":"主席各位委員處理的習慣 大家好主席各位請彭主委還有央行的朱美麗副總裁以及內政部陳副局長歸買中心董事長簡立忠好 請彭主委 朱副總裁然後簡董事長還有陳副局長其實這個議題聽起來是滿重要的"},{"start":10609.94,"end":10615.924,"text":"虛擬貨幣過去本席在立法院多次質詢央行應該心有所感"},{"start":10617.233,"end":10645.692,"text":"我六七年前我就拜託楊總裁買進兩個東西一個是黃金每盎司1270塊後來央行有沒有買在六年前我建議央行你把你的外匯儲備或多或少斟酌除了人民幣之外還有另外一個選擇就是比特幣請問央行你們有沒有買回答"},{"start":10648.066,"end":10655.398,"text":"我們並沒有買一直都沒買那你會不會覺得因為你沒買影響到很多人"},{"start":10657.657,"end":10679.551,"text":"其實那個主委的建議是我來到央行之前嘛六七年前這兩年我在央行我知道央行有很多事都考慮的要安全性因為你要知道因為總裁我是很信任他的我在這裡公開的來請教總裁我說比特幣到底能不能買"},{"start":10681.035,"end":10701.712,"text":"他說那個可能是詐騙不要買那時候一枚比特幣是六千塊美金結果你知道有很多的年輕人包括本席總裁都講說那個有可能是詐騙所以因為總裁的一句話我沒買很多年輕人也通通沒買這樣"},{"start":10704.161,"end":10726.211,"text":"一個讓年輕人或者是產業成長的一個事業結果全部煞雨而歸全部斷送了年輕人的發展很可惜啊現在我要請教一下包括主委在場各位你們現在都在說這個時代的潮流"},{"start":10727.366,"end":10755.531,"text":"台幣 記價 穩定幣虛擬貨幣的這個交易中心一定要做那我請問你們現場的所有官員手上持有虛擬貨幣持有比特幣的請舉手沒有啊你連手上都沒有持有你怎麼與時俱進你手上都沒有你怎麼樣來管理請問主委好了我現在要買一個比特幣我怎麼買"},{"start":10757.236,"end":10773.107,"text":"我想這有很多種途徑比如說我們當然是透過交易所哪一個交易所那我就不做廣告各位都台灣有幾個交易所台灣我們現在我們剛才講過就我們大概有三四個幾個大概三四個"},{"start":10773.973,"end":10803.064,"text":"沒有啦 總共六七個啦七個是有登記的本來有26個現在全部都取消掉了不是 我跟你講裡面有些不是做交易平台啦好那這裡面哪一個是OK的哪一些是不OK的目前假設我們按照我們現在台灣合法的就是9家有9家那問題都是名不見經傳啊請問一下請問一下全世界最大的虛擬貨幣交易所是哪裡"},{"start":10806.943,"end":10827.376,"text":"這個我一直好 請問你現在要開放你要做台灣的亞洲資產管理中心未來虛擬貨幣的這個市場究竟金管會要或不要我想我們在我們去年公佈的計畫裡面確實沒有包括這一部分但是我想這個產業還沒有在台灣真的形成一個這樣一個"},{"start":10831.138,"end":10851.843,"text":"所以我想這會隨著未來因為我們做這個資產觀念中心不是一天兩天可能要花很長的時間來做我想我們會未來根據這樣一個發展我們再來政治上再把它你是有智慧的人你很聰明的人點字王你看美國都已經在做了來那個前統市場"},{"start":10853.171,"end":10863.958,"text":"美國發行虛擬貨幣ETF什麼時候開始發行有沒有正式開始交易的美國總統川普對於虛擬貨幣的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":10868.994,"end":10893.914,"text":"報告委員 其實虛擬貨幣這邊我不是很內行大概的資訊不內行 好 請下去主委 找一個內行的上來講沒有 委員比較內行沒有 不是內行是因為所有的年輕人已經被割韭菜所有的台灣的年輕人已經喪失了很多很多的機會你知道"},{"start":10894.855,"end":10922.712,"text":"台大職工系一年畢業多少人因為不同領域廖老師教出來的兩三千個學生本來是在台灣可以發展這個產業給年輕人很大的機會結果你們全部說say no no no no每次都說因為詐騙 因業你就因為這個問題然後扼殺了產業的發展接下來我來問刑事警察局"},{"start":10925.83,"end":10945.089,"text":"請問你們每天這幾年在注意打炸的事情洗錢的事情請問今年國際的洗錢在台灣你們查了幾個案子目前我手頭上沒有這個統計好 沒有 謝謝我說我們"},{"start":10946.446,"end":10961.329,"text":"講了帽子 說的範圍很大要打詐國際洗錢等等結果洗錢金額多少 查了幾件有誰可以回答央行好了所以每次聽起來都障礙非常多可是你不做"},{"start":10972.062,"end":11000.035,"text":"美國在做啊你不做日本在做韓國在做新加坡在做那乾脆通通不要做不會出事可是這不是台灣未來發展的一個重點嗎我們要跟國際接軌那我請問主委美國通過了相關的對虛擬貨幣支持的法案有幾個他現在剛才就央行的報告裡面有兩個比較重要的是剛才講的genius跟那個就是"},{"start":11011.117,"end":11019.302,"text":"我想報告裡面寫其他國家像比如說歐盟的MICA還有像日本 香港 新加坡他們都有相關的立法"},{"start":11020.731,"end":11035.497,"text":"所以 主委我們今天做這個 趙委很用心我們做這個是希望說這個產業到底要不要因為你台灣現在的成長 發展你不可以置外於國際的這一塊的市場"},{"start":11036.437,"end":11061.597,"text":"其實委員剛才我們今天為什麼會有這個專題報告就是我們希望就是來促成剛才委員所期待這件事情所以我們現在我們是一個一個階段非常清楚的對 所以我們現在用心愛台灣今天的主題就是要未來這個產業很重要的基本大法請問主委就是說那台灣以台幣計價發行的穩定幣第一顆什麼時候我可以買到"},{"start":11063.059,"end":11073.406,"text":"如果說就是我剛才講過我們現在行政院如果說我們通過立法院的審查的話最快什麼時候可以買到我沒辦法預期但是大概"},{"start":11076.071,"end":11096.023,"text":"10年會不會買到如果假設這個會期有機會通過的話這個會期預算比較難那如果說再下個會期的話因為我們的執法大概通過以後的半年內當然不見得要半年我們希望說加快速度那因為你的亞洲的資產管理中心速度要加快"},{"start":11097.003,"end":11118.017,"text":"不然諸位 看到你來這邊我們也希望說整個金融的這一塊可以做大做強做好因為你看起來又是那麼smart我們一起努力你也很用心要趕快該做的把它做好有 我們正在做你的運氣還不錯因為你來了以後可以說是在金融方面四海生平"},{"start":11119.057,"end":11127.083,"text":"還有穩定的發展這個本席也給你祝福但是接下來請問你台股什麼時候會突破三萬點我想我也很關心這個問題我想我也回答過很多問題因為跟我有關你三萬點的時候我要請你吃雞排請大家喝珍奶"},{"start":11139.284,"end":11167.515,"text":"我已經請過兩次了一個是突破1萬點一個是突破2萬點上次你來的第一天我就期許你趕快大陸都在看那現在每天的成交量大概最多最近最高的7000億左右你覺得這個量溫不溫和是變成一種常態了嗎如果像今年的成交量跟去年來比的話還沒有去年的平均的量多今年大概比去年大概少了大概7%左右平均量"},{"start":11167.975,"end":11176.426,"text":"好 那我們就再參考就是說那為什麼新加坡人均GDP是九萬五台灣現在才三萬八怎麼樣把市場擴大"},{"start":11181.141,"end":11204.199,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣做可以讓更多的資金回來台灣就我的這個工作來看我覺得我們可以貢獻的就是希望把我們的金融產業把它做大做強那當然對整個國家的GDP還有國民這些提供更多優質的工作讓我們的年輕人留在台灣可以好好發揮不用到國外去新加坡也沒有一陣水"},{"start":11205.525,"end":11230.113,"text":"沒有好 沒有台灣以正稅欠多少20本席主張調降到10讓更多的資金回來台灣支不支持這可能要問一下財政部你不是要跟新加坡競爭嗎你不是要贏過香港嗎當然任何有利於我們金融發展或資產管理發展的話我們都是歡迎的"},{"start":11230.353,"end":11245.326,"text":"你這個多研究為什麼新加坡能 我們不能為什麼新加坡人均GDP是九萬五我們還停留在三萬八請為下一代年輕人多找找出路第二個就是"},{"start":11246.431,"end":11266.244,"text":"本席所提保險法第146條之四什麼時候開始可以把他的上限往下調降到一半我想這個問題應該這樣講我們最近如果委員有注意到我們把對於國內的這些公建的投資我們就把它"},{"start":11268.485,"end":11289.976,"text":"從10%調高到15%其實某種程度就想要做這件事情跟委員講的是一樣只是委員講那個方式其實過於突然變化比較大所以說這部分我們會希望用一個實務可行又能夠達到目的的方法來做你如果5年前這個案子如果通過回來大概13兆的資金13兆回台灣買什麼 買台積電"},{"start":11292.617,"end":11310.917,"text":"買AI周邊的這些壽險公司又安全又可以帶動台灣這個企業的發展沒有 因為壽險業的投資有它強制分散的規定也沒辦法就集中在比如說那個股票或這個方面它就是有很多比較安全性的考量 對好 持續主委"},{"start":11311.892,"end":11334.805,"text":"外國能做的 能開放的 好的請多多學習這就是我們努力的方向讓台灣趕快成長起來也更期待在你當主委的時候股市上三萬點 這個是什麼OK吧 多努力謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝羅委員接下來我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":11343.257,"end":11368.226,"text":"謝謝主席 先請金管會彭主委請彭主委主委 這個星期在市場熱議的一件事情就是玉山晶併購了三商人壽這裡面就是有關於它的重信發布其中中信晶本來也要出價它在廉價之前發布重訊"},{"start":11369.306,"end":11395.265,"text":"而玉山金跟山商人壽是到廉價之後也就禮拜一的晚上才發布重訊但是星期一山商人壽它的股價就已經暴跌而且值得重視的是是外資大賣玉山金這件事情當然在整個的金融跟證券市場就得到非常多的討論"},{"start":11396.366,"end":11415.226,"text":"也就是說為什麼中信金可以提前四天發布重訊但是呢玉山金山上人壽竟然是一個是27號公告一個是28號都是在晚間凌晨的時候公告那當然這個很多我看到媒體也都會有追"},{"start":11416.067,"end":11434.842,"text":"金管會的態度我想請問一下金管會到目前為止對這個事件你們的態度是什麼是中信金發的不對還是玉山金跟山上人壽有違反這個重訓發布的相關的公告的規定然後要不要允許處分"},{"start":11435.592,"end":11450.778,"text":"好 我想跟委員說明跟報告剛剛已經有多位委員詢問相同的問題我也再重述一遍剛剛您提到有一家公司它在星期四發因為它開了董事會他們自己判斷按照重訓發布的規則它就發了重訓"},{"start":11451.798,"end":11477.332,"text":"那其實我剛才也再三說明了這個是他們在上市櫃公司跟交易所之間他們的一個契約行為這由交易所來處理那媒體很關心以後我們也請期局 請交易所趕快去了解我想交易所也提醒了他們今天已經是星期四了所以剛才有講過局長也承諾說這部分他會我們已經責成交易所趕快把它說明清楚對外"},{"start":11478.252,"end":11487.299,"text":"調查清楚對外說明該怎麼處理就怎麼處理這個到底你們所了解我說今天已經星期四了到底有沒有違反相關的規定"},{"start":11488.903,"end":11504.392,"text":"對 我想這個是主要是我剛才可能要再重複一遍我知道 你們在講的就是那個規定裡面 就是處理程序裡面它是有一個第四條 第十一款吧就是它是董事會決議 對不對對那基本上它可以說董事會還沒有決議價格還沒有確定在董事會還沒有決議之前所以我可以不需要來發布重訊"},{"start":11517.159,"end":11536.95,"text":"但是这个事情为什么我特别提到外资大卖为什么外资大卖外资在廉价之前事实上都是买钞连续三天买钞外资大卖其中的一个原因就是这个有没有违反公司治理不够透明的问题"},{"start":11538.171,"end":11558.332,"text":"那如果按照他没有违反这个相关的公告程序的话那他不是公司治理的问题这就是你们金融监理的问题啊你们怎么会让他混乱到这样的程度好我再来看过去其实我们在尤其金融市场的并购是非常普遍的事情"},{"start":11559.053,"end":11578.205,"text":"但是过去确实要不要发重训我也看不出你们到底是什么样的标准比如说这个是当时星光金跟台新金他们先发重训因为他们董事会决议两边要一起研究还要不要合并结果你们各罚十万块"},{"start":11579.265,"end":11602.35,"text":"所以我就不懂了這樣子他們比較早發重訊就被罰十萬塊過去中興金跟京城銀行的就是在也是媒體傳出要併購然後盤前沒有發重訊然後你們金午晚會好像最後也不了了之所以這個事件凸顯的是什麼凸顯就是在併購的過程裡面"},{"start":11605.373,"end":11609.631,"text":"顯然你們那個的法定的程序現在是混亂的"},{"start":11611.254,"end":11629,"text":"現在是混亂不然怎麼會有這麼多爭議呢不是 跟委員報告就像委員舉這兩個例子裡面因為他們自己專業的判斷就是因為我們現在重訓本來就很多要涉及到他們專業的判斷所以你留給他們一個很大的專業判斷空間然後股價大跌 外資大賣然後股民受損失都可以歸咎不過還沒有歸咎歸之於這些監控他們的專業判斷"},{"start":11640.684,"end":11646.209,"text":"那請問一下我們金融監理的尺度在哪裡我們的原則在哪裡我們對於散戶的保護在哪裡外資大賣兩天18萬張耶你現在別魚帶風輕尊重他們的專業判斷委員我沒有魚帶風輕我只是跟您解釋一下"},{"start":11658.439,"end":11674.347,"text":"我希望這個事件你們一定要給市場一個交代這麼多的顧問所以我們請那交易所趕快查明對外說明對不起 那個主席讓我再一點事情我再找一下那個央行的副總裁好嗎一個問題而已好 那請王委員把握時間好 會"},{"start":11681.547,"end":11691.02,"text":"副總裁我們今天談到的是虛擬貨幣剛才講美國現在強力推行穩定幣這是川普他大力推行"},{"start":11691.843,"end":11718.988,"text":"那其中為什麼要大力推行呢美國穩定幣他的準備是1比1美元資產所以他現在變成美國國債的好幫手那美國就希望他國債不要滯銷嘛對不對好所以他現在呢他的準備是1比1讓他呢大家對他比較安心那我看到你們報告你們也認為他發行要有準備那請問一下我們會不會也傾向於像美國一樣"},{"start":11719.688,"end":11740.728,"text":"如果你是新台幣來做這個計價的話它應該也是用1比1的來做準備是 我們在報告裡面有提到這一點你們報告沒有1比1我們講穩定幣跟法幣1比1的報告所以未來我們也是比照美元計價的穩定幣是1比1但是這個問題來了美國國債一大堆"},{"start":11745.632,"end":11763.643,"text":"他恨不得趕快發行多一點消耗他的國債但是我們相對我們新台幣資產未必有這麼多我覺得這是後續他可能會衍生的問題因為我覺得這個問題蠻重要的我們也是以一比一來做未來的穩定幣發行的準備謝謝謝謝王委員"},{"start":11768.306,"end":11795.178,"text":"接下來我們請侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員下一位蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在下一位林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在下一位邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在好 本次會議做如下決定"},{"start":11797.27,"end":11813.202,"text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":11814.022,"end":11830.884,"text":"委員林思明 李燕秀 林楚英所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關部會議書面答覆四 本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢已並列入記錄 刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},{"id":"164880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f005aeb3d74df557495f253141cf72ece13cec708ebf7c68655ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:35:33 - 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我在去年六月就很重視這個問題我們開過很多會針對這種樣態發生的時候怎麼應處那當然我們也有前面就先溝通嘛因為這涉及到中共要引用的法當地怎麼樣回應除了所謂的引渡法這個以外就是司法互助台還包括他們對一中的解釋"},{"start":200.217,"end":224.083,"text":"以及其他對於兩邊是不是有共同的刑法對這些部分的一個處置當然因為這不是法律這也涉及到到時候中共可能會施壓萬一發生如果你要讓所有國人包括這個立法會有相關的風險意識你必須要做一些燈號管制像旅遊風險旅遊風險去警戒你要把另外的政治風險也用燈號來顯示"},{"start":226.204,"end":254.211,"text":"所以我去看這個是紅色哇 這個可能你就是不建議前往政治風險極高這個是一個原則但是因為如果涉及到國家對國家那麼全面性我們當然也會考量到你旅遊風險另外再擴展出來一個政治風險旅遊風險都有每個國家都有旅遊風險的建議嘛 對不對就紅色 藍色對 涉及到人身安全對 那你能不能多加一個政治風險"},{"start":256.395,"end":268.989,"text":"我們當然會有評估的指標不過就是說怎麼樣反映在我們的警示的燈號這個我們會來持續研究另外15秒鐘就是台韓關係"},{"start":270.751,"end":298.781,"text":"民間交流非常的暢旺對不對我們大家都知道什麼叫Blackpink大家知道這個領唱會那個交流的票很貴生活啊這個受到韓國文化很深的影響很多人也喜歡到韓國旅遊所以這個部分我們跟韓國的官方的關係國會的交流 政黨的交流或者政府之間的交流比不上台日關係台日關係也不是現在一觸可及經過數十年的累積"},{"start":299.921,"end":317.854,"text":"我覺得台韓有很多成長的空間現在韓國的國際地緣政治跟地緣經濟跟過去不一樣哪裡不一樣它面臨到北韓的威脅跟我們要面對中國的威脅它的經濟過去比較親中但是現在中國用它的低價傾銷讓韓國的這個產業也深受打擊跟我們台灣產業一樣"},{"start":323.587,"end":327.028,"text":"所以我們應該要組成一個東亞國家的台日韓經濟安全合作促進會特別是台韓關係我們有很大的成長要戰略這部分再請部長能夠多加重視我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"164883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00ec518efd08b28a5c55b9b7d9df2795fe7858943a6a9958c93eccb88f554b3b0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:48:15 - 12:03:54","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T11:48:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T12:03:54+08:00","duration":939,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.71409375,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.99784375,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.064718750000004,"end":94.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.08784375,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.88471875,"end":99.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.91409375,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.96471875,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.52159375000001,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.37471875,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.00721875000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.42909375000002,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.14784375000002,"end":183.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.66034375,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.94346875000002,"end":245.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.49471875,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.56221875000003,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.01784375000003,"end":246.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.49034375000002,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.42659375000002,"end":255.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.19346875,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.20159375000003,"end":261.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.47534375000004,"end":269.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.16596875,"end":274.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.43534375,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.69971875000005,"end":288.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.40784375000004,"end":290.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.55096875000004,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.50409375000004,"end":309.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.28221875,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.59409375,"end":326.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.17409375,"end":331.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.54034375000003,"end":334.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.64534375,"end":343.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.04471875,"end":356.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.44784375,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.80034375,"end":370.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.40346875,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.25534375,"end":378.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.04346875000005,"end":385.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.06346875,"end":386.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.89034375,"end":402.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.97221875,"end":405.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.82409375000003,"end":411.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.10159375,"end":415.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.81409375000004,"end":417.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.04159375,"end":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 守護國家跟農業的安全一開始想要針對關務署的查緝的量能的問題來請教請關務署的蘇副署長請蘇副署長"},{"start":100.023,"end":126.045,"text":"市副署長好今天已經討論很多了不過我想還是先再就教一下因為不管是在國境安全各方面關務署都針對於旅客的行李 郵包 貨運各類進口出入品都是一個很重要的角色所以希望有三個部分來請教副署長第一個就是到底人員目前的狀況如何是不是有嚴重的不足"},{"start":126.536,"end":135.646,"text":"第二個就是AI輔助辨識系統的建置的進度第三個就是小三通也是大家很關心的部分那目前的查緝狀況是如何"},{"start":137.675,"end":166.915,"text":"我們也知道畢竟在那麼大的流量之下X光的判讀是非常重要的所以第一線的這個官員的查緝他的專業也非常非常的重要這個專業當然就會有分級的需求也謝謝當初有提出這個分級的制度之下也讓我們的同仁可以透過初階中階到高階的判讀讓這個人力的分布可以更為符合現場的需求"},{"start":167.495,"end":192.631,"text":"那這個部分有制度當然很好可是總體的量還是要共同讓他在工作的同時呢就能夠有很好的這些人力的分配把關那我們以基隆關為例基隆關其實編制是1084位配置了1072可是現有才1008位"},{"start":194.552,"end":211.721,"text":"意思就是說即使是在有這麼好的編制事實上真的在現場的人力還是相對不足只有還缺少了60位那這樣的衝擊我相信大家其實是當然會很辛苦尤其最近這一波"},{"start":212.261,"end":234.097,"text":"好像大家應該是都能了解啦也能知道現場人員在這個過程裡面就好像醫療單位我們也同樣面臨這樣的壓力那其實在兩年前就已經有相關的委員注意到關護署這個業務增加人力不足的部分那現在到底情況如何有沒有一個比較"},{"start":235.958,"end":244.885,"text":"好的一個數據的呈現針對全體的觀物同仁目前的人力配置的部分有沒有什麼改善措施"},{"start":245.62,"end":251.501,"text":"是謝謝委員非常的理解海關的這個業務的一個繁重以及關切我們海關人力不足的一個問題那這邊跟委員報告因為海關的這個人力的來源主要就是官務特考就是經由這個考試的一個分發那我們當然在我們現有的人力之下我們還是要在我們的國門這邊要"},{"start":274.706,"end":278.91,"text":"盡力的來把關所以我們主要我們會運用相關的風險管理機制來做查核以及運用這個高科技的一些查核工具那剛剛委員槌尋的就是有關我們在人力的部分那我們目前就是我們配合這個公務人員的一個勤修的制度我們已經有增加165人"},{"start":299.309,"end":304.952,"text":"那就是包括在有行李檢查方面以及貨物的一個檢查人數方面我們有增加那針對我們另外就是在官務特考我們今年有新在12月的時候就會有46位的新進的人員會投入海關的這一個行列那另外就是我們也有提報在明年官務特考的人數我們的"},{"start":326.281,"end":354.02,"text":"一个缺额的需用的名额大概有300人就是明年的官务特考我们希望能够有禁用300人的一个人数那另外就是针对有关非洲猪瘟的一个防疫因为在107年中国大陆它爆发非洲猪瘟以来那我们这边就是为了要防堵非洲猪瘟所以行政院在109年的时候就有合给我们约顾的人数有76人"},{"start":356.581,"end":384.82,"text":"一直到就是到目前是有66個人是同意行政院同意我們延長到115年底就是這個約顧的人數所以可以來當然可以協助來補充我們這個有關非洲豬瘟的查緝的一個人力那我們當然如果說因為這樣子的一個人力缺缺口就是剛才跟我原報告的如果在考試的這個"},{"start":387.102,"end":392.267,"text":"補足之前的這個空窗期我們現在如果還是就是針對人力方面的確非常緊繃的狀況下我們希望說也可以再跟行政院人事行政總處來討論是不是可以再增加我們這個約顧人員的一個"},{"start":405.959,"end":425.903,"text":"一個元額的增加的一個情況那我們希望說我們可以在有關這個防堵非洲豬瘟的地方可以在更多的一個人力投入謝謝好很期待這個年底能夠有效的補足人力我們知道業務量大當然這個流動率就會高"},{"start":426.543,"end":450.567,"text":"所以就要看各級長官如何跟我們這些基層的同仁把感情讓他們繼續替台灣這個防疫的部分再更盡一份心力再來就是小山通那個查緝的部分因為我們也都了解這次租屋的內容很有可能當然不排除是不是小山通也是入侵的管道之一這兩天相關的訊息大家也都看得到"},{"start":451.548,"end":473.509,"text":"其實也不是只有地霸而已我們也知道小三通可能還有其他的包括各種的零食、煙酒、乾香菇等產品會透過小三通進來那目前到底在這個部分有沒有相關在處理上可以更精進的地方包括說面對小三通通路的查緝風險"},{"start":474.97,"end":488.843,"text":"在管理上跟查詢上措施有沒有在做一些針對這些從這個對岸跑到台灣這樣的這些可能性的這種管理措施"},{"start":489.471,"end":507.747,"text":"那另外對於這個特定航線有沒有加強這個查緝的機制那第三點就是當然這個AI風險分析跟行李辨識系統來提高這個攔檢效率這個也都是可以努力的方向那不顯然有沒有什麼進度可以跟國人在做報告的"},{"start":508.067,"end":525.784,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關小三通的部分因為小三通主要就是中國大陸這邊的入境旅客那針對小三通他的入境旅客他的不管是手提或者是他托運的行李我們都是會百分之百經過X光的一個檢查"},{"start":526.845,"end":529.788,"text":"那如果說我們檢查發現有異狀我們開箱有查獲相關的這些不管是豬肉或者是香菇等等農產品這些違規的物品我們就會立即移送給房間署這邊來做處理那當然我們也"},{"start":545.485,"end":562.106,"text":"針對剛才委員有提到我們對於比較就是高風險的這個就是有關這個中國大陸這邊的他我們當然就加強我們會跟房檢署這邊來合作以及在在我們這個邊境上面的相關查緝機關"},{"start":563.367,"end":580.4,"text":"包括海巡這邊我們都會合作來加強來查緝那有關剛才委員有提到特別提到AI的部分跟委員報告我們其實我們在110年7月的時候我們就有建置AI的一個影像辨識的一個輔助那當時是針對毒品的一個影像的一個"},{"start":587.845,"end":603.014,"text":"訓練我們有部署108套的這樣子的一個系統在我們的通關點那我們就是也針對有關肉品跟跟這個香煙等等這個部分我們後續就是有另外一個次世代的一個計畫會擴充在114年到117年之間我們會陸續的來擴充肉品跟香煙的一個辨識"},{"start":611.161,"end":635.753,"text":"好 谢谢副署长的说明那会不会请这边提供小山东近三年的通关数量查细数量跟品项给办公室做参考因为我们想要了解最近这一段时间有什么比较明显波动的部分再过来你刚刚提到就是AI辅助编制系统的建制进度我想这个非常的重要因为这个"},{"start":637.054,"end":652.809,"text":"量的部分我们人力需要透过更好的科技来协助那我们也知道关乎署也推动了AI辅助辨识系统的设置那这部分审计部在去年的总结算审核报告里面有提出了三个部分"},{"start":653.79,"end":677.443,"text":"希望能夠再改善的第一個就是可辨識毒品藏匿樣態的不足會影響到AI系統的準確性第二個部分AI系統僅能夠辨識一些物品然後判斷率的高低等等所以對於這個氣濕的效能好像還可以再提升第三個廠商會依合約規定來落實AI系統版本的管理跟監控的機制"},{"start":678.483,"end":701.812,"text":"那這三項缺失目前有沒有改善的一些進度跟可以讓大家可以更放心的地方跟委員報告就是有關這個樣態不足的部分我們現在我們的一個精進方式就是我們會去擴充我們的訓練資料運用我們相關的這些影像處理"},{"start":702.512,"end":704.753,"text":"他的一個報告調整角度等等的這些我們會去會去擴充他的一個一個資料的一個訓練另外我們也會持續去收集我們相關查獲的案例把他輸入這個AI的一個訓練裡頭那我們其實我們要求我們各個官區就是"},{"start":723.238,"end":730.727,"text":"他如果已經有查獲相關的這些物品馬上就要去去掃描他的相關的這些圖欄來來輸入我們的這個相關的這個城市另外我們也"},{"start":739.196,"end":746.944,"text":"也會持續來就是跟跟這個法務部這邊我們去申請他有關相關的這個毒品的樣品或者相關的這些我們去讓我們整個一個研發這個AI影像辨識的系統可以去"},{"start":759.045,"end":775.381,"text":"去做進一步的一個學習這樣子我們很期待這個系統的建置可以更周全那當然有了系統以後後面的計畫就要跟著執行包括貴署也在推動次世代人工智慧輔助氣濕計畫"},{"start":777.744,"end":803.361,"text":"這個計畫裡面有列了相關的六大目標包括培養科技的查緝能量第二個就是提升這個氣絲的作業效能第三個是舒緩海關第一線的人力負擔第四個是增進整體通關效率第五個是培養海關AI專業人才最後一項是降低判斷與不必要的開驗比例不知道署裡面對這個計畫的信心度如何"},{"start":804.048,"end":824.365,"text":"我想我們是絕對有信心可以去達成是因為在很快雖然是到117年才最後驗收事實上面對這一次的這一波的挑戰應該是更快希望把這個計畫能夠落實好謝謝副處長那最後有一個問題我們再請教一下經濟部的長官們"},{"start":833.277,"end":851.325,"text":"主長 委員好主長你好我們知道這次的這個衝擊對於整個這個豬的產業非常的明顯的影響那昨天我們的召委也在提到相關的樹困計畫裡面他含了七大項"},{"start":852.205,"end":868.413,"text":"其中有一項我們特別關心的就是豬肉攤商的鄉親們他們的衝擊跟目前為止我們了解我們傳統市場的豬肉攤商到底全台灣有多少量如何能夠協助他們渡過這個難關"},{"start":870.174,"end":898.06,"text":"跟委員報告我們經濟部目前掌握的傳統市場的攤商數這個是地方政府列管的這個數字有那目前非洲豬瘟發生之後我們有請地方政府去統計這些攤商數裡面是生鮮豬肉攤的這個數字目前還在統計中那有些縣市政府還沒有回報那就是有回報的他們也一直不斷的在修正"},{"start":899.12,"end":924.551,"text":"那目前這個後續我們有規劃針對豬肉攤商的補助措施那這個目前行政院在研議到時候會有行政院統一對外公佈如果說有相關的統計數字回來可不可以提供一份資料給我們辦公室因為我們也很希望針對這些鄉親們在因應的過程裡面將來有哪一些可以透過大家共同努力來讓他們渡過這個難關好 謝謝"},{"start":928.874,"end":938.165,"text":"好謝謝我們的王委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在那就羅明才"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1013,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時48分）謝謝主席。主席、各位同仁，其實面對非洲豬瘟的威脅，我們更應該要保持沉著跟冷靜，才有辦法面對這麼大疫情的衝擊。從民國107年以來，非洲豬瘟在全球快速的擴散之下，其實我們臺灣很早就成立了非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心，共同透過跨部會的協調，並結合地方政府跟民間單位的力量，在中央政府的主導之下，共同投入防疫工作。在全國人民的高度警覺跟配合之下，我們成功阻擋了疫情的入侵，也守住了國內豬肉產業跟糧食的安全，這樣的努力，成果當然是非常豐碩，大家都有目共睹，而國際的肯定也讓我們的豬肉可以再次行銷全球。因此，我相信面對這次新一波的疫情挑戰，只要中央跟地方大家持續的緊密合作並攜手民間的力量，共同守住防線，我們一定能夠再次成功控制疫情，守護國家跟農業的安全。一開始想要針對關務署查緝量能的問題來請教，請關務署的蘇副署長。"],["主席：請蘇副署長。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：蘇副署長好。今天已經討論很多了，不過我想再就教一下，因為不管是在國境安全各方面，關務署針對旅客的行李、郵包、貨運各類進口出入品，扮演著一個很重要的角色，所以有三個部分來請教副署長：第一個是到底人員目前的狀況如何，是不是有嚴重的不足？第二個是AI輔助辨識系統建置的進度；第三個是小三通，也是大家很關心的部分，目前的查緝狀況如何？我們也知道，畢竟在那麼大的貨物量之下，X光判讀是非常重要的，所以第一線關員查緝的專業也非常非常的重要，這個專業當然就會有分級的需求，也謝謝當初有提出分級的制度之下，讓你們的同仁可以透過初階、中階到高階的判讀，讓人力的分布可以更為符合現場的需求，這個部分能有制度當然很好，可是總體的量還是需要讓他在工作的同時，能夠有很好的人力分配來予把關。","以基隆關為例，基隆關其實員額編制是1,084位，配置是1,072位，可是現有才1,008位，意思是即使有這麼好的編制，事實上，在現場的人力還是相對不足，還缺少了約60位。面對這樣的衝擊，其實我相信同仁會很辛苦，尤其最近這一波，大家應該都能了解啦！也能知道現場人員在這過程裡，就好像醫療單位，我們也同樣面臨這樣的壓力。","其實在兩年前就已經有相關的委員注意到關務署業務增加、人力不足的部分，現在到底情況如何？有沒有一個比較好的數據呈現？針對全體關務同仁目前的人力配置部分，有沒有什麼改善措施？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：謝謝委員非常理解海關業務的繁重，以及關切我們海關人力不足的問題。這邊跟委員報告，因為海關的人力來源主要就是關務特考，經由考試分發，當然在我們現有的人力之下，我們還是要在國門盡力把關，所以我們主要會運用相關的風險管理機制查核，以及運用一些高科技查核工具。","剛剛委員垂詢有關我們人力的部分，目前我們就是配合公務人員勤休制度，我們已經有增加165人，包括行李檢查以及貨物檢查人數方面我們有增加。在關務特考部分，我們今年在12月的時候就會有46位新進人員投入海關這個行列。另外我們也提報了明年關務特考的人數，我們的缺額需用名額大概有300人，就是明年的關務特考我們希望能夠進用300人。","針對非洲豬瘟防疫，在107年中國大陸爆發非洲豬瘟以來，我們這邊為了要防堵非洲豬瘟，行政院在109年的時候就有核給我們約僱人數76人，一直到目前有66個人是行政院同意我們延長到115年底，就是約僱的人數，這當然就可以協助補充我們在非洲豬瘟查緝的人力。至於這樣子的人力缺口，也就是剛才跟委員報告的，在考試補足之前的這個空窗期，現在人力方面的確非常緊繃的狀況下，我們希望可以再跟行政院人事行政總處討論，是不是可以再增加約僱員額？我們希望在防堵非洲豬瘟這部分可以再有更多的人力投入，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，很期待年底能夠有效的補足人力。我們知道業務量大，當然流動率就會高，所以就要看各級長官如何跟基層同仁搏感情，讓他們繼續替臺灣的防疫再更盡一份心力。","再來就是小三通查緝的部分，因為我們都了解這次豬瘟很有可能……當然不排除小三通也是入侵的管道之一，這兩天相關的訊息大家也都看得到。其實也不只是豬肉而已，我們也知道小三通可能還有其他，包括各種零食、菸酒、乾香菇等農產品會透過小三通進來，目前在這個部分的處理上到底有沒有可以更精進的地方？包括面對小三通通路的查緝風險，在管理跟查緝上有沒有針對從對岸跑到臺灣這種可能性的管理措施？另外，對於特定航線，有沒有加強查緝的機制？第三點就是AI風險分析跟行李辨識系統提高攔檢效率，這個也都是可以努力的方向，目前有沒有什麼進度可以跟國人報告的？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，有關小三通的部分，因為小三通主要就是中國大陸這邊的入境旅客，針對小三通的入境旅客，不管是手提或者託運的行李，我們都是會百分之百經過X光的檢查，如果檢查發現有異狀，我們開箱查獲相關的不管是豬肉或者是香菇等等農產品，這些違規的物品就會立即移送給防檢署處理。另外，也針對剛才委員提到對於比較高風險的部分，就是有關中國大陸這邊，我們會跟防檢署以及在邊境的相關查緝機關，包括海巡等等，都會合作來加強查緝。有關剛才委員特別提到AI的部分，跟委員報告，其實我們在110年7月的時候，就有建置AI影像辨識的輔助系統，當時是針對毒品的影像訓練，我們有部署108套這樣子的系統在通關點。我們也針對有關肉品跟香菸等部分，後續有另外一個次世代的計畫會擴充，在114年到117年之間會陸續地擴充肉品跟香菸的辨識。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝副署長的說明，會後請提供小三通近三年的通關數量、查緝數量跟品項給辦公室參考，因為我們想要了解最近這一段時間，有什麼比較明顯波動的部分。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["王委員正旭：你剛剛提到AI輔助辨識系統的建置進度，我想這個非常的重要，因為量的部分，人力需要透過更好的科技來協助。我們知道關務署也推動了AI輔助辨識系統的設置，審計部在去年的總決算審核報告有提出三個部分，希望能夠再改善：第一個就是可辨識毒品藏匿樣態不足，會影響到AI系統的準確性；第二個部分是AI系統僅能夠辨識一些毒品，還有判斷率高低等因素影響，緝私的效能好像還可以再提升；第三個，廠商未依合約規定落實AI系統版本管理跟監控機制。這三項缺失目前有沒有改善的進度，可以讓大家更放心？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，有關樣態不足的部分，我們現在的精進方式就是擴充訓練資料，運用相關的影像處理，包括調整角度等等，我們會去擴充資料的訓練。另外，我們也會持續去蒐集相關查獲的案例，把它輸入AI的訓練裡頭，也要求各個關區如果有查獲相關的物品，馬上掃描它的圖檔並輸入相關的程式。我們也會持續跟法務部來申請相關毒品的樣品，或者其他相關的部分，讓整個AI影像辨識系統可以進一步的學習。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們很期待這個系統的建置可以更周全。當然有系統以後，後面的計畫就要跟著執行，包括貴署也在推動次世代人工智慧輔助緝私計畫，這個計畫裡面列了相關的六大目標：第一個是培養科技的查緝能量；第二個就是提升緝私的作業效能；第三個是舒緩海關第一線的人力負擔；第四個是增進整體通關效率；第五個是培養海關AI專業人才；最後一項是降低判斷與不必要的開驗比例。不知道署裡面對這個計畫的信心度如何？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：我想我們絕對有信心可以去達成。"],["王委員正旭：因為再來很快，雖然是到117年才做最後驗收，事實上對這一波的挑戰，應該希望更快把這個計畫落實。謝謝副署長。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：最後有一個問題，我再請教一下經濟部的長官們。"],["簡組長俊良：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：組長你好。我們知道這次的衝擊對於豬的整個產業有非常明顯的影響，昨天我們的召委提到相關紓困計畫，裡面含了七大項，其中有一項，我們特別關心的就是對豬肉攤商的鄉親們之衝擊。到目前為止，據了解，傳統市場的豬肉攤商，到底全臺灣有多少量，如何能夠協助他們度過這個難關？"],["簡組長俊良：跟委員報告，我們經濟部目前掌握的傳統市場攤商數，這是地方政府列管的，這個數字有。非洲豬瘟發生之後，我們有請地方政府去統計這些攤商數裡面是生鮮豬肉攤的，這個數字目前還在統計中，有些縣市政府還沒有回報，就是有回報的他們也一直不斷地在修正。後續我們有規劃針對豬肉攤商的補助措施，這個目前行政院也在研議，到時候會由行政院統一對外公布。"],["王委員正旭：好，如果有相關的統計數字回來，可不可以也提供一份資料給我們辦公室？"],["簡組長俊良：可以。"],["王委員正旭：因為我們也很希望，針對這些鄉親們在因應的過程裡面，將來有哪一些可以透過大家的共同努力讓他們度過這個難關。"],["簡組長俊良：好。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["簡組長俊良：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：謝謝王委員。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00d3110ce1921a526955b9b7d9df2795fecec708ebf7c6865519e861c81d6c028e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:32:57 - 11:48:10","影片長度":"00:15:13","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T11:32:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T11:48:10+08:00","duration":913,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.73909375,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.750968750000002,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.46659375,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.27659375,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.70221875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.20284375,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.439093750000005,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.57784375,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.88159375,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.31596875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.875968750000006,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.08846875,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.61721875,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.10909375,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.86034375000001,"end":141.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.78096875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.08596875,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.60846875000001,"end":170.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.60346875000002,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.59721875000002,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.79034375,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.18971875000003,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.20034375,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.89534375000002,"end":284.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.71659375,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.94846875,"end":285.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.23846875000004,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.90909375,"end":300.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.83721875000003,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.24971875,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.08034375,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.58659375,"end":348.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.46721875000003,"end":314.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.72596875000005,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.33534375000005,"end":391.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.92534375,"end":352.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.32159375000003,"end":354.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.06659375000004,"end":407.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.43784375,"end":394.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.23721875,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.23096875000005,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.70721875000004,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.58221875000004,"end":442.54409375},{"speaker":"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主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了"},{"start":39.546,"end":60.794,"text":"商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎"},{"start":66.997,"end":93.828,"text":"問經濟部也不是他 農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員 其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多 委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議"},{"start":95.929,"end":123.212,"text":"當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能 郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁"},{"start":124.573,"end":148.687,"text":"而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦"},{"start":151.269,"end":169.871,"text":"可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制"},{"start":170.932,"end":189.465,"text":"風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商"},{"start":190.285,"end":215.403,"text":"电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊"},{"start":217.289,"end":235.577,"text":"大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們"},{"start":236.477,"end":254.165,"text":"那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對"},{"start":254.865,"end":282.654,"text":"那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下"},{"start":284.015,"end":304.429,"text":"這就是我想問的 你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外 就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話 你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任"},{"start":306.224,"end":328.998,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字"},{"start":329.458,"end":339.202,"text":"像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達"},{"start":344.784,"end":369.77,"text":"马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗"},{"start":371.091,"end":391.773,"text":"猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定"},{"start":394.224,"end":407.536,"text":"第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的"},{"start":408.317,"end":424.809,"text":"那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽"},{"start":426.03,"end":442.157,"text":"所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎"},{"start":442.557,"end":465.331,"text":"那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面"},{"start":465.891,"end":479.086,"text":"跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長"},{"start":481.228,"end":497.217,"text":"我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院"},{"start":498.477,"end":515.234,"text":"訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理"},{"start":517.85,"end":531.315,"text":"这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器"},{"start":532.931,"end":555.169,"text":"但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎"},{"start":557.099,"end":580.185,"text":"因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒"},{"start":582.017,"end":598.609,"text":"就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒"},{"start":599.934,"end":620.902,"text":"跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠"},{"start":623.363,"end":645.416,"text":"所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性"},{"start":645.836,"end":667.097,"text":"跟委員說明 他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀 手術刀 這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類 他該用什麼管因為醫療器材 它有它的功能性跟它的安全性 規格會比較高"},{"start":667.637,"end":687.977,"text":"那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是"},{"start":690.464,"end":711.285,"text":"我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是"},{"start":712.406,"end":738.648,"text":"那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗"},{"start":740.658,"end":762.257,"text":"大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福"},{"start":763.158,"end":784.978,"text":"部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響"},{"start":785.638,"end":802.12,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助"},{"start":803.962,"end":828.08,"text":"改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣"},{"start":828.821,"end":852.322,"text":"並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":852.982,"end":879.925,"text":"有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方"},{"start":880.305,"end":907.44,"text":"因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請"},{"start":909.858,"end":910.642,"text":"王振旭委員來發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時33分）主席，麻煩數位發展部數位產業署林組長。"],["主席：林組長。"],["林組長青嶔：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：組長早。在跨境電商疑似有發現小包裝的豬肉食品流入到臺灣的話，可能就會成為防疫破口，其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了。商品不同，可是遇到豬肉的問題，當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理，遇到玩具，我們就問經濟部怎麼處理，遇到玩具針筒，我們就問衛福部怎麼處理，最後都找不到人處理，為什麼？因為在平臺上。所以我想問數位發展部的是，現在所謂的依各機關權責處理，因為7月14號有開過會說要虛實對應，可是有解決了嗎？因為問經濟部也不是它、農業部也是不它、衛福部也不是它，可是就在平臺上啊！所以對跨境電商平臺的監管有用嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員。其實我也知道委員都一直在關注這些問題，當然平臺上面的問題是非常多，委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法，但是我覺得數發部必須要去搭起這樣子的平臺溝通會議，當然有些機制必須要去梳理，我們過去也有跟委員交流，也開了幾次會，針對像電子煙、過去內政部的穿雲箭、偽冒的車牌，還有一些依托咪酯，這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見，大家來做交流，當然這聯席的過程中還是可能……"],["林委員月琴：不過組長，交流完如果沒有後續……而且要判斷到底有沒有用，為什麼？因為你們說要去做一些阻斷的時候，我們如果直接在電商平臺上做個實驗就知道了，在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入臺灣的新聞後，包括蝦皮以及淘寶都說早在2019年的時候就已經因應政府政策的有關規定，宣稱已經嚴辦。","可是我必須嚴正地指正，含肉製品的肉乾、肉鬆、寵物食品、風味泡麵，這些都能夠輕易透過平臺進入到臺灣，而且部分賣家甚至以假關鍵字、風味圖示等方法來規避檢驗，因為那些關鍵字……我不要講「槍」，我講「玩具」、「實彈」，讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的風險繞過邊境，這是整個跨境電商平臺監管制度的一個漏洞，所以數發部知道嗎？目前有什麼應對的方式？何時改善？因為卓院長已經說經濟部、數發部要要求平臺限期落地，因為你們上次落地管、境外不管，如果不配合納管的話，數發部就要要求平臺下架，如果境外的話，它不來落地，可是又什麼時候會有進度啊？"],["林組長青嶔：大概跟委員報告一下，其實以落地這件事情來講，當然有一些公司可能跟投審會有相關的事情，但是我覺得這不是重點，重點是不管有沒有落地，我們主張是通通都要努力去管制他們，落地當然有很多國內法可以去處理。"],["林委員月琴：之前我跟你們開過會，你們都說境外的沒辦法管，落地的可以管，現在真的境外也可以管嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：我大概講一下，其實管的方式像國內法，當然有落地可以直接管制他，如果今天他沒有落地的話，我們可以做的方法是，當然我們可以儘量去跟他溝通協調，像淘寶，我們有一些管道，請他去做一些事情，例如有一些配合……雖然他沒落地，我會跟他說，動物傳染病防治條例第三十八條之二有一些規定，例如要標示警語，或者是要限制瀏覽這些事情，你可不可以幫忙一下？如果說……"],["林委員月琴：所以這就是我想問的，你們各電商平臺的阻隔跟措施真的有到位嗎？甚至你有沒有主動去稽查？你現在講境外有沒有落地的都一樣，如果沒有主動的話，你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任。"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員，應該這樣講，我們之前就有弄了一個防詐雷達去掃，都有在掃這些事情，這個部分像我過去講的很多假車牌、穿雲箭，特別是電子煙的部分，我們也很努力在查，但是我也知道其實掃完之後，很多平臺開始會改名字，像肉乾、肉條，我也是可能要就教，看現在變成什麼。像之前電子煙，我現在才知道，因為我是學理工的，主機板就是電腦必備的，它怎麼會突然間變成電子煙的代名詞，還有馬達，怎麼會馬達就是這種東西！"],["林委員月琴：所以目前平臺就出現幾種新型的規避手法，讓平臺稽查形同虛設。首先是展示但不販售的策略，有賣家雖未實際販售應施檢驗商品，可是在商品頁面當中就展示雞蛋、肉乾、貓狗糧作為示意圖，他用圖，而不是用文字。蝦皮說要標示免責聲明的文字，可是圖片中好幾個賣家都未載明免責聲明，是不是會讓消費者誤以為事實上是可購買，形成灰色地帶？這個是不是也是違反平臺規定？"],["林組長青嶔：是。"],["林委員月琴：第二就是證明文件僅放圖片，經濟部有規定檢驗合格證要放在商品的圖片當中，實際上可以發現，賣家竟然就是抄其他合格賣家的字號，用假的、去用別人得到的合格證，因為平臺事實上是用程式串接跟NCC、經濟部比對，所以平臺並沒有進行審核或比對原始文件真偽。這兩個問題，我不知道你們要怎麼解決，我們是否可以要求平臺要有自動審核加人工審核的雙軌機制，而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核，而不是放圖片？有辦法做到嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：以委員的提案來講，我剛剛有跟委員報告，其實我們過去有很多跨平臺會議，我們會把它納入跨平臺會議，因為我們跨平臺會議不是只有部會而已，而是電商跟四大平臺通通都會在裡面，我們一起討論。","像過去來講，其實我也大概知道委員在提的，像過去那個砂輪機或什麼也是牽扯到應施檢驗，我們也是在平臺裡面跟業者討論之後，當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理，哪些去對照，讓電商跟平臺之間有一些可以處理，一起聯防，我們的態度是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：好。麻煩石部長。我一直在關心一個和兒少身心健康保護有關的議題，就是玩具針筒。過去我質詢的時候，衛福部說玩具歸經濟部管，經濟部說那個是針筒，就歸衛福部管，我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣。後來政院訂定了所謂的虛實對應原則，請問部長，現在針筒到底歸誰管？如果它用別的名字，叫做精油注入器，這是合法的嗎？那又是歸誰管？網路上販售的話，你們有辦法處理嗎？還是又覺得要其他部會來處理？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明一下，這還是要個案實質去認定，比如說，你現在這個看起來像玩具……"],["林委員月琴：去年他講針筒，現在他不講了，他就說精油注入器。"],["石部長崇良：但是他是拿來做什麼用途？是打在人體身上……"],["林委員月琴：打在玩具上，然後玩具……"],["石部長崇良：如果是打在人體身上，我們當然會把它當成醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：這還是針筒，不管嗎？"],["石部長崇良：拿來打在人身上……"],["林委員月琴：如果家長買給孩子玩，孩子是把針筒打在玩具上，還是拿這個針筒打在人身上？這個針筒到底管不管？"],["石部長崇良：因為現在……就算我們把針筒全部都納管，但它不稱為針筒，你也沒辦法嘛！所以還是要實質認定它的用途啦！"],["林委員月琴：對，一樣的……"],["石部長崇良：如果用途是會用到人體身上的，我們基本上都會把它認為是醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：所以他講針筒你們才管？"],["石部長崇良：不一定要講針筒，就是看用途啦！"],["林委員月琴：可是這個就是針筒。"],["石部長崇良：要看這個做什麼用。假設你今天講的是注射器，但是打在人體身上，我們還是會按照醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：這個我覺得有一點……如果要打在人身上才要管，可是拿到的就是針筒啊！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員進一步報告，醫療器材是在醫療上面使用，如果這個器材使用在玩具上面，它同樣是針的外型，但是它的鋒利度跟角度等等，其實跟一般的針會不一樣。"],["林委員月琴：那你們有沒有去看這個鋒利度是不是到你們醫療器材的……"],["姜署長至剛：這不到醫療器材等級，這個離醫療器材等級很遠，所以當初其實針對這個議題，我們有跟經濟部標準局提到，如果它設計的方式、目的是兒童的玩具使用，那不能當作是醫療器材來說明，要當作經濟部的一般商品來管理。對於這種模糊地帶的，我們會加強去確認一下，它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩了。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，它還是要看用途。一樣是刀，手術刀，這個是醫療器材；菜刀，我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管。所以不是它會不會傷害人的問題，是根據它的用途，來歸類它該用什麼管。因為醫療器材有它的功能性跟安全性，規格會比較高，其他一般用途、日常生活用途，那個是另外一種。"],["林委員月琴：是不是麻煩你們確認一下？因為現在平臺上都可以買得到。","數發部對於用假關鍵字來規避查驗，政府是不是有要求平臺建立黑名單？有沒有自動比對的系統？"],["林組長青嶔：是，跟委員報告，除了剛剛講的，我們有做防詐雷達在掃之外，剛剛有提到很多像電子煙等等，各部會不管衛福部、農業部，其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的關鍵字，我們這邊也會把這些東西的情資……現在都是資訊社會，像委員講的，有時候肉乾突然間變什麼文字，有時候我們也可能疏漏了，必須要大家互相聯防、互相交流，這樣我們各自的這些model才有辦法能夠準確去掃。"],["林委員月琴：下一頁PDT是我提出的三個主張，不知道數發部能做到嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：跟委員報告，第一個因為可能要有一些相關的法規，但是……"],["林委員月琴：所以這三點是不是麻煩數發部寫一個評估報告，給你們1個月時間，可以嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：好，可以。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝數發部。"],["林組長青嶔：感謝委員。"],["林委員月琴：最後，還是麻煩衛福部部長。很重要的一個議題是財劃法通過之後，地方的預算增加，中央大幅減少，中央或地方相關的社福預算是否會受到影響？最近就有民眾、民間團體來我這邊陳情。部長是不是可以說明一下，到底明年度社福預算有沒有受到影響？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對於弱勢保障預算是沒有改變的，都沒有改變。我們的預算甚至還增加了，只不過因為財劃法的關係，地方的收入增加了，所以我們才會把它從計畫型補助改成是一般性補助，希望地方要編列對應的款項，主要是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：部長，跟你澄清一下，特別是對精神病友的支持，它的預算分散在包含社安網，還有身心障礙照顧服務資源布建計畫等，中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足自籌款，才能夠申請到中央補助。因為地方也有責任，並不是全部都中央。其中預算最多的是精神病友多元社區生活方案，原本都是中央全額補助。"],["石部長崇良：對，全額。"],["林委員月琴：今年的預算用完之後，有地方政府卻用這個是非法定社福預算理由來拒絕編列明年的預算並甩鍋中央，讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞。部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有，委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這件事情，我們有在了解。"],["林委員月琴：那就要麻煩部長，因為這違反了精神衛生法第二十三條跟社會福利基本法第十四條，強調各級政府委託辦理社服服務的時候，應該要合理編列充足的經費，以維護服務使用者的權益相關規定。所以部長，是不是可以請你們發函要求地方政府，應延續社區支持服務量能，並且比照社安網與身心資源的布建計畫來調整自籌比例，以讓地方有法源依據來編列預算，給予我們的精神病人支持。部長，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：沒有問題，我們這兩天就會發文。"],["林委員月琴：好，我以民間團體的角色來感謝你們，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：明天之前一定發文，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：感謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王正旭委員作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00ae82b7acf13126a48220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c6865527c4fbec8c3d8b6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:40:32 - 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請交易所趕快去了解我想交易所也提醒了他們今天已經是星期四了所以剛才有講過局長也承諾說這部分他會我們已經責成交易所趕快把它說明清楚對外"},{"start":132.3,"end":140.858,"text":"調查清楚對外說明該怎麼處理就怎麼處理這個到底你們所了解我說今天已經星期四了到底有沒有違反相關的規定"},{"start":142.927,"end":158.438,"text":"我想這個是主要是我剛才可能要再重複一遍我知道你們在講的就是那個規定裡面就是處理程序裡面它是有一個第四條第十一款吧就是它是董事會決議對不對那基本上它可以說董事會還沒有決議價格還沒有確定在董事會還沒有決議之前所以我可以不需要來發布重訊"},{"start":171.207,"end":196.155,"text":"但是这个事情为什么我特别提到外资大卖为什么外资大卖外资在廉价之前事实上都是买钞连续三天买钞外资大卖其中的一个原因就是这个有没有违反公司治理不够透明不够透明的问题如果按照他没有违反相关的公告程序的话"},{"start":196.835,"end":212.377,"text":"那它不是公司治理的问题这就是你们金融监理的问题你们怎么会让它混乱到这样的程度好 我再来看过去其实我们在尤其金融市场的并购是非常普遍的事情"},{"start":213.098,"end":232.249,"text":"但是过去确实要不要发重训我也看不出你们到底是什么样的标准好比如说这个是这个当时星光金跟台新金他们先发重训因为他们董事会决议两边要一起研究还要不要合并结果呢你们各罚十万块"},{"start":233.309,"end":258.369,"text":"所以我就不懂了这样子他们比较早发重讯就被罚十万块过去中信金跟京城银行的也是媒体传出要并购然后盘前没有发重讯然后你们今晚会好像最后也不了了之所以这个事件凸显的是什么凸显就是在并购的过程里面"},{"start":259.41,"end":275.522,"text":"顯然你們那個的法定的程序現在是混亂的現在是混亂不然怎麼會有這麼多爭議呢不是 跟委員報告就像委員舉這兩個例子裡面因為他們自己專業的判斷就是因為我們現在重訓本來就很多要涉及到他們專業的判斷"},{"start":277.179,"end":303.11,"text":"所以你留給他們一個很大的專業判斷空間然後股價大跌 外資大賣然後股民受損失都可以歸咎不過你還沒有歸咎歸之於這些金控他們的專業判斷那請問一下我們金融監理的尺度在哪裡我們的原則在哪裡我們對於散戶的保護在哪裡外資大賣兩天18萬張"},{"start":305.831,"end":321.805,"text":"你現在別雲淡風輕尊重他們的專業判斷委員我沒有雲淡風輕我只是跟您解釋一下我希望這個事件你們一定要給市場一個交代這麼多的國民所以我們請那交易所趕快查明對外說明對不起主席讓我再一點事先我再找一下那個央行的副總裁好嗎一個問題而已請王委員把握時間好會"},{"start":335.595,"end":345.053,"text":"副總裁那我們今天談到的是虛擬貨幣剛才講美國現在強力推行穩定幣這是川普他大力推行"},{"start":345.888,"end":373.052,"text":"那其中為什麼要大力推行呢美國穩定幣他的準備是1比1美元資產所以他現在變成美國國債的好幫手那美國就希望他國債不要滯銷嘛對不對好所以他現在呢他的準備是1比1讓他呢大家對他比較安心那我看到你們報告你們也認為他發行要有準備那請問一下我們會不會也傾向於像美國一樣"},{"start":373.732,"end":394.772,"text":"如果你是新台幣來做這個計價的話他應該也是用1比1的來做準備是 我們在報告裡面有提到這一點你們報告沒有1比1我們講穩定幣跟法幣1比1的報告所以未來我們也是比照美元計價的穩定幣是1比1但是這個問題來了美國國債一大堆"},{"start":399.656,"end":408.822,"text":"他恨不得趕快發行多一點消耗他的國債但是我們相對我們新台幣資產未必有這麼多我覺得這是後續他可能會衍生的問題因為我覺得這個問題蠻重要的就是我們也是以一比一來做這個未來的穩定幣發行的準備謝謝王委員接下來我們請侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":961,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時40分）謝謝主席，先請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：好，請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，這個星期在市場熱議的一件事情，就是玉山金併購了三商人壽。有關於它的重訊發布，其中中信金本來也要出價，它在連假之前發布重訊，而玉山金跟三商人壽是到連假之後，也就是禮拜一的晚上才發布重訊。但是星期一三商人壽的股價就已經暴跌，而且值得重視的是外資大賣玉山金。","這件事情當然在整個金融跟證券市場得到非常多的討論，也就是說為什麼中信金可以提前4天發布重訊，但是玉山金、三商人壽竟然一個是27號公告，一個是28號，都是在晚間、凌晨的時候公告。當然我看到很多媒體都會有追金管會的態度，我想請問一下，金管會到目前為止對這個事件，你們的態度是什麼？是中信金發的不對，還是玉山金跟三商人壽有違反重訊發布的相關公告的規定，然後要不要予以處分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想跟委員說明跟報告，剛剛已經有多位委員詢問相同的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也再重述一遍，剛剛您提到有一家公司在星期四發，因為他開了董事會，他們自己判斷按照重訊發布的規則，它就發了重訊。其實我剛才也再三說明了，這是他們在上市櫃公司跟交易所之間的一個契約行為，這由交易所來處理。媒體很關心以後，我們也請證期局，請交易所趕快去了解，我想交易所也提醒了他們。"],["王委員鴻薇：今天已經是星期四了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以剛才有講，這部分局長也承諾了，我們已經責成交易所趕快把它調查清楚、對外說明，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：就你們所了解，今天已經星期四了，到底有沒有違反相關的規定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個主要是，我可能要再重複一遍……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，你們在講的就是那個規定裡面，就是處理程序裡面有一個第四條第十一款，就是它是董事會決議，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：基本上它可以說董事會還沒有決議，價格還沒有確定，在董事會還沒有決議之前可以不需要發布重訊。但是這個事情，為什麼我特別提到外資大賣，為什麼外資大賣？外資在連假之前事實上都是買超，連續3天買超。外資大賣其中的一個原因，就是這個有沒有違反公司治理，不夠透明？不夠透明的問題。好，那如果它沒有違反這個相關的公告程序的話，那它不是公司治理的問題，這就是你們金融監理的問題啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我跟委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們怎麼會讓它混亂到這樣的程度？我再來看，過去金融市場的併購是非常普遍的事情，但是過去要不要發重訊，我也看不出你們到底是什麼樣的標準。比如這是當時新光金跟台新金，他們先發重訊，因為他們董事會決議兩邊要一起研究還要不要合併，結果呢？你們各罰10萬塊，所以我就不懂啦！他們比較早發重訊就被罰10萬塊。","過去中信金跟京城銀行也是媒體傳出要併購，盤前沒有發重訊，然後你們金管會好像最後也不了了之。所以這個事件凸顯的是什麼？凸顯的就是在併購的過程裡面，顯然你們的法定程序是混亂的，不然怎麼會有這麼多爭議呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，跟委員報告，就像委員舉這兩個例子裡面，因為他們自己專業的判斷，就是因為現在重訊本來就很多要涉及到他們專業的判斷，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你留給他們一個很大的專業判斷空間……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是交易所……"],["王委員鴻薇：然後股價大跌、外資大賣，股民受損失都可以歸之於這些金控他們的專業判斷？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我沒有這麼說，委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：那請問一下，我們的金融監理的尺度在哪裡？我們的原則在哪裡？我們對於散戶的保護在哪裡？外資大賣，兩天18萬張耶！你現在別雲淡風輕，尊重他們的專業判斷，那請問金融監理在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我沒有雲淡風輕，我只是跟您解釋一下，整個監理是會有一段的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望這個事件你們一定要給市場一個交代，這麼多的股民……"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們請交易所趕快查明並對外說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，主席，再給我一點時間。我再找一下央行的副總裁好嗎？一個問題而已。"],["主席：好，請王委員把握時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，會的。副總裁，我們今天談到的是虛擬貨幣，剛才講美國現在強力推行穩定幣，這是川普大力推行。為什麼要大力推行呢？美國穩定幣的準備是1：1美元資產，所以它現在變成美國國債的好幫手。美國就希望國債不要滯銷，對不對？所以他現在的準備是1：1，讓大家對它比較安心。我看到你們的報告，你們也認為它發行要有準備，那請問一下，我們會不會也傾向於像美國一樣，如果你是以新臺幣來計價的話，應該也是用1：1來做準備。"],["朱副總裁美麗：是，我們在報告裡面有提到這一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：你的報告沒有1：1喔！"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們講穩定幣……"],["謝局長鳳瑛：法幣1：1的掛鉤。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以未來我們也是比照美元計價的穩定幣是1：1，但是這個問題來了，美國國債一大堆啊！他恨不得趕快發行多一點，消耗他的國債，但是我們新臺幣資產未必有這麼多，我覺得這是後續可能會衍生的問題。不好意思，因為我覺得這個問題蠻重要的，就是我們也是以1：1來做未來的穩定幣發行的準備。好，謝謝。"],["朱副總裁美麗：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","下一位蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","下一位邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定；三、委員林思銘、李彥秀、林楚茵所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復；四、本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00b354797f08af32aa8220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c68655450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:27:57 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查了幾件有誰可以回答央行好了所以每次聽起來都障礙非常多可是你不做"},{"start":380.1,"end":408.073,"text":"美國在做啊你不做日本在做韓國在做新加坡在做那乾脆通通不要做不會出事可是這不是台灣未來發展的一個重點嗎我們要跟國際接軌那我請問主委美國通過了相關的對虛擬貨幣支持的法案有幾個他現在剛才就央行的報告裡面有兩個比較重要的是剛才講的genius跟那個就是"},{"start":419.17,"end":427.357,"text":"我想報告裡面寫其他國家像比如說歐盟的MICA還有像日本 香港 新加坡他們都有相關的立法"},{"start":428.786,"end":443.975,"text":"所以 诸位啊我们今天做这个 赵伟很用心啊我们做这个是希望说这个产业到底要不要因为你台湾现在的成长发展你不可以置外于国际的这一块的市场嘛"},{"start":444.475,"end":472.182,"text":"其實委員剛才我們今天為什麼會有這個專題報告就是我們希望就是來促成剛才委員所期待這件事情所以我們現在我們是一個一個階段非常清楚的對 所以我們現在用心愛台灣今天的主題就是要未來這個產業很重要的基本大法請問主委就是說那台灣以台幣計價發行的穩定幣第一顆什麼時候我可以買到如果說啦就是我剛才講過"},{"start":473.382,"end":480.657,"text":"我們現在行政院如果說我們通過立法院的審查最快什麼時候可以買到我沒辦法預期大概"},{"start":484.108,"end":504.081,"text":"10年會不會買到如果假設這個會期有機會通過的話這個會期預算比較難如果說再下個會期的話因為我們的執法大概通過以後的半年內大概不見得要半年我們希望說加快速度因為你的亞洲的資產管理中心速度要加快"},{"start":505.061,"end":526.072,"text":"不然主委看到你來這邊我們也希望說整個金融的這一塊可以做大做強做好因為你看起來又是那麼smart我們一起努力了你很用心就趕快該做的把它做好有啊 我們正在做你的運氣還不錯因為你來了以後可以說是在金融方面四海生平"},{"start":527.092,"end":535.158,"text":"還有穩定的發展這個本席也給你祝福但是接下來請問你台股什麼時候會突破三萬點我想我也很關心這個問題我想我也回答過很多問題因為跟我有關你三萬點的時候我要請你吃雞排請大家喝珍奶"},{"start":547.321,"end":575.57,"text":"我已經請過兩次了一個是突破1萬點 一個是突破2萬點上次你來的第一天我就期許你趕快 大家都在看現在每天的成交量大概最多最近最高的7000億左右你覺得這個量溫不溫和是變成一種常態了嗎如果像今年的成交量跟去年來比的話還沒有去年的平均的量多今年大概比去年少的大概7%左右平均量"},{"start":576.01,"end":584.421,"text":"好 那我們就再參考就是說那為什麼新加坡人均GDP是九萬五台灣現在才三萬八怎麼樣把市場擴大"},{"start":589.198,"end":616.323,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣做可以讓更多的資金回來台灣就我的這個工作來看我覺得我們可以貢獻的就希望把我們的金融產業把它做大做強那當然對整個國家的GDP還有國民這些提供更多優質的工作讓我們的年輕人留在台灣可以好好發揮不用到國外去新加坡有沒有宜政稅沒有好 沒有台灣宜政稅現在多少20"},{"start":619.003,"end":646.162,"text":"20本席主張調降到10讓更多的資金回來台灣支不支持這可能要問一下財政部你不是要跟新加坡競爭嗎你不是要贏過香港嗎當然任何有利於我們金融發展或資產管理發展的話我們都是歡迎的你這個多研究為什麼新加坡能我們不能為什麼新加坡人均GDP是9萬5我們還停留在3萬8"},{"start":648.798,"end":670.811,"text":"請為下一代年輕人多找找出路第二個就是本席所提的保險法第146條之四什麼時候開始可以把他的上限往下調降到一半我想這個問題應該這樣講我們最近我有注意到我們把那個"},{"start":672.012,"end":698.033,"text":"對於國內的這些公建的收支我們就把它從10%調高到15%其實某種程度就想要做這件事情跟委員講的是一樣只是委員講那個方式其實過於突然變化比較大所以說這部分我們會希望用一個實務可行又能夠達到目的的方法來做你如果5年前這個案子如果通過回來大概13兆的資金13兆回台灣買什麼 買台積電"},{"start":700.655,"end":718.941,"text":"買AI周邊的這些壽險公司又安全又可以帶動台灣這個企業的發展沒有 因為壽險業的投資有它強制分散的規定也沒辦法就集中在比如說那個股票或這個方面它就是有很多比較安全性的考量對好 持續主委"},{"start":719.941,"end":742.859,"text":"外國能做的 能開放的好的 請多多學習讓台灣趕快成長起來也更期待在你當主委的時候股市上三萬點 這個是什麼OK嘛 多努力謝謝 羅委員接下來我們請王宏威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":872,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時27分）主席、各位委員及列席官員大家好。主席，請彭主委，還有央行朱美麗副總裁，以及內政部陳副局長、櫃買中心董事長簡立忠。"],["主席：請彭主委、朱副總裁，然後簡董事長，還有陳副局長。"],["羅委員明才：大家早安。其實這個議題聽起來是滿重要的，虛擬貨幣，過去本席在立法院多次質詢，央行應該心有所感，六、七年前我就拜託楊總裁買進兩個東西，一個是黃金，每盎司1,270塊，後來央行有沒有買？在6年前我建議央行把外匯儲備或多或少斟酌，除了人民幣之外，還有另外一個選擇，就是比特幣，請問央行，你們有沒有買？回答。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們並沒有買。"],["羅委員明才：一直都沒買？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是。"],["羅委員明才：你會不會覺得因為你沒買而影響到很多人？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實委員的建議是我來到央行之前，六、七年前……"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["朱副總裁美麗：這兩年我在央行，我知道央行有很多事都要考慮安全性。"],["羅委員明才：你要知道因為總裁我是很信任他的，我在這裡公開請教總裁，我說比特幣到底能不能買，他說那個可能是詐騙不要買，那時候1枚比特幣是6,000塊美金，結果你知道有很多年輕人，包括本席，總裁都說那個有可能是詐騙，所以因為總裁的一句話我沒買，很多年輕人也通通沒買，這樣一個讓年輕人或是產業成長的事業，結果全部鎩羽而歸，斷送了年輕人的發展，很可惜。","現在我要請教一下包括主委及在場各位，你們現在都在說這是時代的潮流，臺幣計價的穩定幣、虛擬貨幣的交易中心一定要做，我請問你，現場的所有官員手上持有虛擬貨幣、持有比特幣的請舉手，沒有啊，你們手上都沒有持有，要怎麼與時俱進，你手上都沒有，你怎麼樣來管理？請問主委好了，我現在要買一顆比特幣，我怎麼買？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這有很多種途徑，我們當然是透過交易所。"],["羅委員明才：哪一個交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我就不做廣告了，各位都知道……"],["羅委員明才：臺灣有幾個交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：像我們剛才講過，我們大概有3、4個吧！"],["羅委員明才：幾個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大概3、4個。"],["羅委員明才：沒有啦，總共6、7個啦，7個是有登記的，本來有26個，現在全部都取消掉了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我剛剛有講裡面有些不是交易平台。"],["羅委員明才：好，這裡面哪一個是OK的，哪一些是不OK的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設按照現在臺灣合法的就是9家。"],["羅委員明才：問題是都名不見經傳啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不能這麼說，它是在起步階段。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下，全世界最大的虛擬貨幣交易所是哪個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我一直……"],["羅委員明才：好啦，幣安啦……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有……"],["羅委員明才：請問你現在要開放，你要做臺灣的亞洲資產管理中心，未來虛擬貨幣的這個市場，究竟金管會要或不要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們去年公布的計畫裡面確實沒有包括這一部分，但是我想這個產業還沒有在臺灣真的形成這樣一個條件，所以我想這會隨著未來……因為我們做這個資產管理中心不是一天兩天，可能要花很長的時間來做，我想我們未來會根據發展，我們再把它納入政策。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你是有智慧的人……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有、沒有，委員才是有智慧的人。"],["羅委員明才：你是很聰明的人、點子王，你看，美國都已經在做了。請簡董事長，美國什麼時候開始發行虛擬貨幣ETF，有沒有正式開始交易了？美國總統川普對於虛擬貨幣的態度是怎麼樣？"],["簡董事長立忠：報告委員，其實虛擬貨幣的部分我不是很內行，大概……"],["羅委員明才：不內行，好，請下去。主委，找一個內行的上來講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，委員比較內行。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，不是內行，是因為所有的年輕人已經被割韭菜，所有臺灣的年輕人已經喪失了很多、很多的機會，你知道臺大資工系一年畢業多少人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為不同領域，沒有研究。"],["羅委員明才：廖老師教出來的兩、三千個學生，本來是在臺灣可以發展這個產業，給年輕人很大的機會，結果你們全部Say No、No、No，每次都說因為詐騙，你就因為這個問題而扼殺了產業的發展。","接下來我要問刑事警察局，你們這幾年在注意打詐的事情、洗錢的事情，請問今年在臺灣的國際洗錢案你們查了幾個案子？"],["陳副局長世煌：目前我手頭上沒有這個統計。"],["羅委員明才：好，沒有，謝謝。我是說我們說的範圍很大，要打詐、國際洗錢等等，結果洗錢金額多少、查了幾件？有誰可以回答？央行好了。所以每次聽起來都障礙非常多，可是你不做，美國在做啊，你不做，日本在做，韓國在做，新加坡在做，那乾脆通通不要做就不會出事，可是這不是臺灣未來發展的一個重點嗎？我們要跟國際接軌。","我請問主委，美國通過相關對虛擬貨幣支持的法案有幾個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就央行的報告裡面有兩個比較重要的是剛才講的GENIUS跟……就是報告裡面講的那個，我想報告裡面有寫啦，其他國家比如說歐盟的MiCA，對不對？"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有像日本、香港、新加坡都有相關的立法。"],["羅委員明才：主委，今天召委員很用心，我們做這個是希望瞭解這個產業到底要不要？因為臺灣現在在成長、發展，你不可以自外於國際的這一塊市場，所以期許說……"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我們今天為什麼會有這個專題報告？就是我們希望促成剛剛委員所期待的這件事情，我們是一個、一個階段，非常清楚！"],["羅委員明才：一步一腳印，用心愛臺灣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，今天的主題就是未來這個產業很重要的基本大法。"],["羅委員明才：請問主委，臺灣以臺幣計價發行的穩定幣，第一顆什麼時候我可以買到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講過，我們現在法案在行政院，如果我們通過立法院審查的話……"],["羅委員明才：最快什麼時候可以買到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我沒辦法預期，但是……"],["羅委員明才：大概！10年會不會買到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設這個會期有機會通過的話。"],["羅委員明才：這個會期處理預算，比較難。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果再下個會期的話，因為我們的子法大概在通過以後的半年內，當然不見得要半年……"],["羅委員明才：我們希望加快速度，你的亞洲資產管理中心速度要加快，主委，看到你來這邊，我們也希望整個金融的這一塊可以做大、做強、做好，因為你看起來又是那麼smart……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們一起努力。"],["羅委員明才：你也很用心，就趕快該做的把它做好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們正在做，對！"],["羅委員明才：你的運氣還不錯，因為你來了以後，可以說是在金融方面四海昇平、穩定的發展，本席也給你祝福。","接下來請問你，臺股什麼時候會突破三萬點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員很關心這個問題，我也回答過很多次。"],["羅委員明才：因為跟我有關，3萬點的時候，我要請你吃雞排、請大家喝珍奶，我已經請過2次了，一個是突破1萬點、一個突破2萬點。上次你來的第一天我就期許你趕快，大家都在看！現在每天的成交量最近最高大概7,000億左右，你覺得這個量溫不溫和、變成一種常態了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果以今年的成交量跟去年來比的話，還沒有去年平均的量多，今年大概比去年少了大概7%左右，平均量。"],["羅委員明才：好，我們就再參考，為什麼新加坡人均GDP是九萬五、臺灣現在才三萬八，怎麼樣把市場擴大，你覺得怎麼樣做可以讓更多的資金回來臺灣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我的這個工作來看，我覺得我們可以貢獻的就是希望把我們的金融產業做大、做強，當然對整個國家的GDP，還有提供國民更多優質的工作，讓我們的年輕人留在臺灣可以好好發展、不用到國外去。"],["羅委員明才：新加坡有沒有遺贈稅？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：臺灣的遺贈稅現在多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：20。"],["羅委員明才：本席主張調降到10，讓更多的資金回來臺灣，支不支持？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這可能要問一下財政部。"],["羅委員明才：你不是要跟新加坡競爭嗎？不是要贏過香港嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然任何有利於我們金融發展或資產管理發展的話，我們都是歡迎的。"],["羅委員明才：你這個多研究，為什麼新加坡能、我們不能？為什麼新加坡人均GDP是九萬五、我們還停留在三萬八？請為下一代年輕人多找找出路！","第二個，就是本席所提的保險法第一百四十六條之四，什麼時候開始可以把它的上限往下調降到一半？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個問題應該這樣講，如果委員最近有注意到，我們把對於國內的公建投資從10%調高到15%，其實某種程度就想要做這件事情，跟委員講的一樣，只是委員講的那個方式突然變化比較大，所以這部分我們會希望用一個實務可行又能夠達到目的的方法來做。"],["羅委員明才：這個案子如果5年前通過，大概回來13兆的資金，13兆回臺灣買什麼？買台積電、買AI周邊的，這些壽險公司又安全又可以帶動臺灣企業的發展。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，因為壽險業的投資有其強制分散的規定，也沒辦法就集中在股票或這個方面，它就是有比較安全性的考量。"],["羅委員明才：主委，外國人做的，能開放的、好的，請多多學習，讓臺灣趕快成長起來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這就是我們努力的方向。"],["羅委員明才：也更期待趁你當主委的時候股市上3萬點，這個OK嘛！多努力，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164878","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00b354797f08af32aaf253141cf72ece13cec708ebf7c68655682c3a9a74037a9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:27:57 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沈副主委委員好"},{"start":11.972,"end":29.833,"text":"陸委會副主委早安我想我們今天到這兒其實很多委員都是關心的跨境鎮壓的議題那剛剛我們也已經討論到其實他現在沈博洋委員是政治人物但是這一起事件我們看到的他不是單一的個案"},{"start":30.313,"end":53.866,"text":"因為我們除了政治人物像我們那個昭偉過去也被公告過那現在沈博洋這個是立案那其實我們的軍公教裡面軍已經據說也已經上榜了那公的話以司法體系的話檢察官的那只要執行國家的法令跟國安相關的那也可能上榜"},{"start":54.406,"end":74.644,"text":"那未來就是叫那這一次還有推動民防的公民團體也被捲入所以真的是讓大家覺得不只是言論自由那工作權人身安全都受到威脅那我想講的是要感謝昭偉今天我們國會有這個報告"},{"start":76.645,"end":99.384,"text":"因為別的國會早就在關注這個問題那今年七月我受邀參加美國國會跨黨派議員提出的跨國鎮壓政策法案草案的聽證會那很榮幸做一個台灣國會議員在那裡分享就是我們的國家的經驗我當時舉的是我們蕭美琴準總統"},{"start":100.565,"end":118.921,"text":"還有沈博洋在網路上受到的中國網軍的各種攻擊其實跨國鎮壓已經發生當然不是只有美國國會他是在準備立法關注他們的而且看到的都是中共加拿大"},{"start":119.401,"end":138.074,"text":"去年就通過反外國干預法他們的國會明確把外國勢力的騷擾恐惡等行為視為刑事犯罪而且要求該國建立外國影響力註冊當然我們也知道很多主要是針對中共或中國英國的國會"},{"start":139.415,"end":162.986,"text":"今年也舉辦了公聽會聽證會他除了跨黨派的聽證會之外英國國會完成完整調查要求政府制定跨國鎮壓的明確定義建立受害者通報機制完善數據收集監測機制建立跨國互助機制我現在是想問那個副主委"},{"start":164.306,"end":188.612,"text":"今天外交部的報告也有講到自由之家的一些統計就是過去10年1,219件跨國鎮壓那發動的主要來自中國中共的佔22%算是最大國所以台灣當然現在它過去可能是針對譬如說瑞典籍的香港人等等或者是在美國籍的華人現在針對的是我們中華民國的國民"},{"start":191.213,"end":203.203,"text":"以自由之家的因應做法說最好的做法是要承認威脅提升執法認知提供主動保護您覺得我們台灣在這三方面做得如何"},{"start":204.065,"end":231.339,"text":"非常謝謝委員您提問非常多因為目前看起來好像只有民進黨籍的特別關切這個問題是非常謝謝委員那我也想舉一個例子來講譬如說中共他也想要利用2758號決議文來打壓台灣在國際上的生活空間我之所以舉這個例子是因為我們確實有看到很多的國家有注意到這些事情那麼這個跨境鎮壓剛剛您所提到的這些例子都非常棒但是我們看到2758號舉這個例子來講我們也非常希望台灣自己本身的國會也可以提出一個譴責"},{"start":232.419,"end":246.792,"text":"所以包含像這次省委員的案子如果說我們台灣能夠不分黨派一致的來表達對於中共這個行為的不滿意的話那麼將會達到一定的這樣的團結跟嚇阻作用所以我們也非常希望這個議題可以再謝謝喔 是那我也希望喔 如您講的我們跨黨派提出譴責那我也希望比照英國國會喔如果我們跨黨派沒有譴責的話行政部門是不是能夠更主動的保護喔"},{"start":256.3,"end":274.539,"text":"那是不是給我20秒就是那個外交部長林部長還有我們的國安的陳副局長跟黃市長因為我希望就是說我們比照英國國會跨黨陸委會主委您也先留步一下最後一頁是說今天非常多的事情"},{"start":275.28,"end":299.526,"text":"我們如果以英國國會的標準來講的話我想前兩項部分跨境鎮壓明確定受害者通報機制這應該可以是陸委會做的完善數據蒐集和監測機制是不是國安單位那後面三個因為這都是涉及到我們海外公民國人在海外的安全建立跨國互助機制我看外交部的報告寫得很好都有在做或準備做"},{"start":300.186,"end":319.6,"text":"還有協助駐外單位的監測並評估風險提供國人警示國家名單我覺得如果加拿大 美國 英國都已經跨黨派在做這樣的工作的話那是不是能夠請剛剛有回答蠻多的就是在做我想這是一個重要的外交工作"},{"start":320.08,"end":346.516,"text":"因為不能夠只限縮在中華民國我們自己的努力有這麼多國家在努力是不是可以協助我們法務國安就是說相關的建立跨國互助機制把這幾項工作還有法務部我們跟加拿大 英國 美國相比我們是不是有更要完善的部分能夠一起有一個跨部會的協調會議完善這幾項工作不知道部長還有幾位可以同意嗎"},{"start":347.536,"end":359.403,"text":"報告委員 我們會跟入委會邀集相關的部會單位來協調怎麼樣分工合作好 那個次長司法我知道你們也有在做一些跨國的努力了可以嗎"},{"start":360.407,"end":378.935,"text":"好 我們會來演繹 會跟外交部跟陸委會一起好 那那個國安的副局長 陳副局長可以嗎我們也會跟外交部一起來努力好 謝謝 那陸委會我想這是兩邊 兩者要合作好 那請問部長可以多久內我覺得不只是跨部會 還需要立法院一起加油我們一起跨黨派"},{"start":379.796,"end":400.017,"text":"王定義委員會促成跨黨派一起努力今天這個我想報告是一個很好的開始那我們要追上其他國家 國會的跨黨派努力好嗎那部長請問多久內可以給本席跟外交國防委員會一個報告書面報告我們一般是兩個月給他們兩個月 這樣兩個月可以嗎好 可以好 謝謝 謝謝召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時27分）謝謝召委，先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：來，沈副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員好。"],["范委員雲：陸委會副主委早安。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：早。"],["范委員雲：今天其實有很多委員都是關心跨境鎮壓的議題，剛剛我們已經討論到，其實現在沈伯洋委員是政治人物，但是我們看到這一起事件並不是單一的個案，因為除了政治人物，像我們召委在過去也被公告過，那現在沈伯洋是立案，其實在我們的軍公教裡面，軍也已經上榜了，那公的方面，以司法體系來講的話，檢察官只要執行國家的法令、跟國安相關的，也可能會上榜，未來就是教。這一次還有推動民防的公民團體也被捲入，所以真的讓大家覺得不只是言論自由，工作權、人身安全都受到威脅。我想要感謝召委，今天在我們國會排了這個報告，因為別的國會早就在關注這個問題，今年7月我受邀參加美國國會跨黨派議員所提「跨國鎮壓政策法案」草案的聽證會，很榮幸作為一個台灣國會議員在那裡分享我們國家的經驗，我當時舉的是蕭美琴副總統還有沈伯洋在網路上受到中國網軍的各種攻擊。其實跨國鎮壓已經發生，當然不是只有美國國會關注，他們是在準備立法，而且看到的都是中共。加拿大去年就通過反外國干預法，他們的國會明確地把外國勢力的騷擾、恐嚇等行為視為刑事犯罪，而且要求該國建立外國影響力註冊，當然我們也知道，這個很多主要是針對中共或中國；英國的國會今年也舉辦了公聽會、聽證會，除了跨黨派的聽證會之外，英國國會也完成完整調查，要求政府制定跨國鎮壓的明確定義，建立受害者通報機制，完善數據蒐集和監測機制，建立跨國互助機制。","我現在想問副主委，今天外交部的報告也有講到自由之家的一些統計，也就是過去10年有1,219件跨國鎮壓，主要來自中國、中共發動的占22%，算是最大國，所以台灣當然現在……它過去可能是針對，譬如說瑞典籍的香港人等等，或是美國籍的華人，現在針對的是我們中華民國的國民。以自由之家的因應作法說，最好的作法是承認威脅、提升執法認知、提供主動保護。您覺得我們台灣在這三方面做得如何？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員提供這樣多……"],["范委員雲：目前看起來好像只有民進黨籍的特別關切這個問題。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，非常謝謝委員。我想舉一個例子來講，譬如中共也想利用2758號決議文來打壓台灣在國際上的生活空間，我之所以舉這個例子，是因為我們確實有看到很多國家有注意到這些事情。","有關這個跨境鎮壓，剛剛您所提到的這些例子都非常棒，但是我們看到2758號……我舉這個例子來講，我們也非常希望台灣自己本身的國會也可以提出譴責，包含這次沈委員的案子，如果台灣能夠不分黨派，一致地表達對中共這個行為不滿意的話，這將會達到一定的團結跟嚇阻作用，所以我們也非常希望這個議題可以再……"],["范委員雲：謝謝，我也希望能如你想的，我們能跨黨派提出譴責，也希望能比照英國國會，如果我們跨黨派沒有譴責的話，行政部門是不是能更主動地保護？","是不是能再給我20秒？有請外交部林部長，還有國安局的陳副局長跟黃次長。我希望我們能比照英國國會跨黨派……陸委會主委也請你先留步一下。","最後一頁是說，今天有非常多的事情，我們如果以英國國會的標準來講的話，我想有關前兩項的部分，跨境鎮壓要明確定義，以及建立受害者通報機制，這應該是陸委會可以做的。完善數據蒐集和監測機制是不是國安單位……後面那3個因為都涉及到公民、國人在海外的安全，在建立跨國互助機制方面，我看外交部的報告寫得很好，都有在做或準備做，還有協助駐外單位監測並評估風險，提供國人警示國家名單。我覺得如果加拿大、美國、英國都已經跨黨派在做這樣的工作的話，是不是能夠請剛剛有回答滿多的就是在做……","我想這是一個重要的外交工作，因為不能夠只限縮在中華民國我們自己的努力。有這麼多國家在努力，是不是可以協助我們法務、國安等相關單位建立跨國互助機制，把這幾項工作……跟加拿大、英國、美國相比，我們是不是有更要完善的部分，能夠一起有一個跨部會的協調會議，完善這幾項工作？不知道部長還有幾位可以同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們會跟陸委會邀集相關的部會、單位協調怎麼樣分工合作。"],["范委員雲：好。次長，我知道司法也有在做一些跨國的努力，可以嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們來研議，會跟外交部、陸委會……"],["范委員雲：要跟外交部一起。那國安的陳副局長，可以嗎？"],["陳副局長松吉：我們也會跟外交部一起努力。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。陸委會，我想兩邊、兩者要合作。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：絕對，當然。"],["范委員雲：請問部長可以多久……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我覺得不只是跨部會，還需要立法院一起加油，我們一起跨黨派。"],["范委員雲：我們立法院王定宇委員會促成跨黨派一起努力，今天的這個報告我想是一個很好的開始，我們要追上其他國家國會對跨黨派的努力，好嗎？部長，請問多久內可以給本席跟外交國防委員會一個書面報告？"],["主席：我們一般是兩個月給……"],["范委員雲：兩個月，這樣可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：好，可以。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：我們是兩週內還是兩個月？更正：是兩週內，讓你更高興一點。"],["范委員雲：沒關係，一個月就好。"],["主席：好，沒關係，另外約定的話就從你們的約定。今天因為詢問法務部的人比較少，本席希望法務部就長臂管轄在境內附和的，我剛才聽到你們報告有講到跟蹤、騷擾，但如果是在網路上，水軍公司這種組織化的去進行附和，遂行中共意旨的，法律上的責任是什麼，我們也希望在後續的報告上可以看到法務部更完整的報告。","接下來進行詢答委員林憶君委員，林憶君委員、林憶君委員不在。","接下來進行詢答委員邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164877","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f004f9de2b37022d42755b9b7d9df2795fecec708ebf7c686554001ca9689ad817b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:19:15 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委員好部長好部長我相信你如果曾經出國要回國的時候這個要進到國內會有檢疫的那個卡嗎對 紅卡綠卡對 紅卡跟綠卡"},{"start":25.302,"end":49.17,"text":"那我今天早上也聽到部長有特別提到就是說未來進來之後這個進到國內全部一律都要檢查是不是這樣子剛剛我一直在確認這件事情那個可能比較詳細的細節是不是可以請關務署說明是好不是那個是農業部房間署"},{"start":57.153,"end":75.252,"text":"是 報告委員其實早在108年的時候那院長去視察的時候為什麼會增加這個首檢區是因為當時我們的裁罰只要高強度的裁罰一個案子就是罰一百萬那當然也達到阻嚇的作用但是很多的民眾就認為說"},{"start":77.133,"end":104.943,"text":"這個罰度太高那是不是我們應該在之前有重新讓我們遊客檢視的機會那這個時候然後提醒他們說是不是有忘了忽略了帶一些含有肉製品的那所以在這樣的一個機制之下所以就有指示我們在與我們整個正式的通關檢查前設立了一個首檢區那這個首檢區就是協助遊客進來然後先再次檢查"},{"start":105.903,"end":127.676,"text":"他的手提包包是不是含有一些肉質品或植物的產品那假設在這裡確實帶有這樣的一個產品那你就在那裡行丟棄那你到了海關通氣的時候那就不會有問題但假設你拒絕你拒絕通過手檢區那麼到了海關這個地方同樣要經過這個海關的檢測"},{"start":130.558,"end":152.272,"text":"那假設在這裡被檢測出來那你就是有帶有高風險的東西那麼送給我們假設是跟我們動植物有關那送給我們動物的開發一次就是20萬以上我想請教因為一開始那時候108年那時候應該是算是比較嚴格那後面可能"},{"start":154.233,"end":176.45,"text":"就是整個疫情比較緩和之後整個狀況可能就這個在海關那邊其實就沒有那麼嚴格我相信署長你自己本身應該也知道那我想請教就是說那未來進到海關進入國門之後你們現在是一律都要檢查或者是還是會分這個"},{"start":179.071,"end":193.718,"text":"紅線跟綠線你們還是會這樣分嗎那如果民眾確實他有帶其實我們看到有的如果這個他還是有帶然後他拿的是綠的卡片然後直接走綠線的話那你們也是"},{"start":194.578,"end":218.459,"text":"我想這個我們就從這件事件說我們大會檢討有兩個措施我們回去會進出來做研理第一個就是說針對我們這個守檢軍行政指導的這個部分那是可以加減它的一個法源的依據跟裁罰的一個基準就是假設拒絕的話我們應該採取怎麼樣的措施來對這些不配合的旅客來加強做一些處罰的行為"},{"start":219.159,"end":241.699,"text":"所以他不配合你們也沒有法則目前是行政指導因為當時的定位就是在協助遊客在通關之前的做再一次的檢視那第二件事情就是說我們現在是有採取分流那也就是跟39個高風險國家那是一定要通過首檢區"},{"start":242.78,"end":259.193,"text":"那這個非疫區的那才不需要那如果我覺得為了要提高我們整個強度就是防疫的強度那或許我們會要求所有的來自任何的國家都要通過那這個部分我們會馬上來做研明"},{"start":260.594,"end":277.666,"text":"我們希望就是說我們一直在講說這個要阻絕於境外所以我覺得這一部分應該還要再加強另外我想請教就是說你們在這個房檢的這個站裡面大部分都是你們自己的同仁嗎還是或者是委外的"},{"start":278.386,"end":301.464,"text":"是委託一個保全是因為委託保全公司來執行這個協助這個業務那你們自己的你們自己的那個這個防疫署這邊的人員是有多少人我們桃園分署是要派員來督導做這件事情的就是他在旁邊督導然後讓保全人員去做這件事"},{"start":302.745,"end":318.482,"text":"那我想請教就是說保全人員他有這樣的一個概念嗎有 我們一定要加強訓練我們也不定期在做訓練因為這些人員可能不了解到底要怎麼第一個態度最重要那第二個要怎麼樣來檢視這些行李"},{"start":322.488,"end":337.487,"text":"那包括在X光那裡有X光的判別那還有打開開箱以後那怎麼樣來處理所以這樣的業務是從什麼時候開始是這樣108年以後就交由保全去做這樣的一個工作那108年以前"},{"start":338.889,"end":359.729,"text":"是你們自己的沒有設置這樣的一個機制所以我覺得這部分應該還要再去加強我們一直希望主角於境外當然我們希望國人不要把一些肉製品或者是動植物的東西帶進來國內"},{"start":363.092,"end":387.831,"text":"那當然還是會有人也許是不小心也許是刻意故意那我覺得說這方面就是我們政府的責任要怎麼樣讓這個東西不要再帶進來我覺得這方面你們應該還要再去加強我跟委員再報告也不乏這個案例就是從港澳進來那他當然我了解也有這樣子拒絕"},{"start":388.591,"end":404.53,"text":"他不經過結果到了我們的海關區的時候我們有檢疫犬在紅綠區那被檢疫犬嗅聞到了那他從包包裡拿出來是在機上沒有吃完的三明治那一下子就肉檢就是20萬就開罰"},{"start":405.971,"end":434.76,"text":"那他當下的作為就是他不繳那不繳就是拒絕入境就被遣送回去了所以這種的都是都有這樣的一個案例的發生好我覺得說這方面應該還要再加強就像我再問一下那個部長跟那個食藥署署長就今天很多委員在關心就是從郵包進到台灣來那這些郵包我不知道說你們到底要怎麼去檢查"},{"start":435.76,"end":448.929,"text":"裡面也有肉製品可能有一些食物什麼之類的零零總總非常多我相信你們應該也沒有那個人力去檢查這麼多的包裹未來你們要怎麼處理這樣的事情"},{"start":450.547,"end":472.352,"text":"當然現在雖然說他是有一定就6公斤以下1000美金以下他是免驗沒錯但是他還是要去上登錄啦就登錄他這個東西是什麼那麼所以我們在研究我們研究就是有一些頻繁用一些其他的這個勾機方式比如說他是不斷的頻繁的在輸入"},{"start":472.992,"end":500.385,"text":"自用因為這個原則是只適用於自用如果不是自用的那還是多少公斤都是要查驗的那所以是針對那個自用很頻繁在輸入這些東西的自用的來加強這個追查所以我覺得就是因為這樣的一個事件我覺得你們這一個部分應該還要再加強跟委員補充一下因為不管是多少的量"},{"start":501.385,"end":524.774,"text":"他輸入的一定要合法與可以輸入的品項登入在官務署駕食藥署才會給予免查驗登記的所以這樣子兩邊配起來之後他才會免驗所以剛才講的非洲豬肉這豬肉相關的疫區的都是不准進來的所以他不會是可以同意得到所謂的免驗的這一項相次跟輸入的相次以上說明"},{"start":525.774,"end":543.029,"text":"好那如果類似就是說我們覺得說小包裹這個部分確實是目前一般民眾就是常用的購買的一個媒介一個平台這個網購平台真的是非常多我相信不論是這個我們那個這個"},{"start":546.883,"end":567.124,"text":"中華我們確實每一天收到的這種小包裹真的非常的多那我希望就是說我們在查驗的這方面應該還要再加強不然有時候就是透過這樣的一個小包裹就進來台灣了另外我是不是請部長回我是不是可以再請教就是有關我們農業部"},{"start":569.787,"end":584.709,"text":"就是說未來除了說我們邊境這個肉品確實可以攔查可能就在邊境就可以直接查驗那如果說是人員他進到疫區也許他有到那個畜牧場那回來"},{"start":585.53,"end":600.229,"text":"之后他如果没有通报那他是不是也可能把这个病毒就透过他的衣服他的鞋子就直接带进来那类似这样的话你们未来要怎么处理谢谢委员现在所有的牧场"},{"start":601.551,"end":615.482,"text":"他的管理者經營者全部都入案所以都在海關裡面這些通關的時候全部都要經過一些相關的處理措施才可以入關所以是針對所有的牧場對的經營者"},{"start":619.044,"end":644.745,"text":"我覺得說這方面因為這一次的非洲豬瘟台中案場其實在前幾天還查得到就是這個主人這個場主的雨鞋還有他們的一些器具還是有這樣的一個病毒那表示就是說其實這個病毒它是可以存在而且可以存在很久可以存活到一千天"},{"start":646.126,"end":671.619,"text":"確實這個時間真的非常長所以我覺得說不論是真的是肉品或者是一些他的衣服雨鞋或者一些器具我覺得確實真的要去落實清消的這樣的一個動作要不然可能就真的會透過其他的媒介又傳出去那你們針對這一部分我們現在列館的有390戶的經營者"},{"start":674.24,"end":700.597,"text":"那所有他的出入境尤其是入境的時候這些的一個所有相關的防疫配合措施一定要做到好那另外就是我要提醒就是說一旦有發生這樣的一個案例的時候其實我覺得進出的人員應該也要管制像這一次這個案場可能很多媒體或很多人就這樣進出那當時也沒有管制啊你們當時應該也都沒有管制其實我們第一時間就已經跟台中市政府講說"},{"start":701.936,"end":717.808,"text":"這個案場一定要管制包括人進出的人跟他們自己的事主這個案場主你也不能隨便亂跑而且跑到別的地方去做開槓所以這個都有要求他們要做那對案主的部分我們是有法規可以發"},{"start":718.188,"end":741.042,"text":"有確定落實嗎 我覺得應該也沒落實所以現在在昨天的時候 前天吧那個檢證署這邊也跟地方的配合去拉封鎖線針對整個案場 那個已經又過了幾天了對 所以這個也是我們一直要求台中市政府應該先把案場這個地方先做一些逐訣讓外人不要進去"},{"start":742.503,"end":766.589,"text":"我覺得就是說房間署這邊應該未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況因為本來後來不是說彰化分園也有一場可能類似後來是說陰性嘛對不對那當時那時候隔天就是新聞有這樣報的時候隔天就很多媒體就在那裡面在播所以我覺得說未來如果有類似的狀況其實我覺得房間署你們應該要去嚴格"},{"start":769.996,"end":785.512,"text":"管控所有不相干的人确实就是不能进到那个案场里面我在跟委员报告我们同步开设这个我们中央医院中心其实大概每半年都会每三个月吧"},{"start":785.919,"end":812.428,"text":"就召開一次那這一次事件的時候地方的整個災變中心也開設了那事實上地方災變中心就有這個權限去做這樣的一個處理所以我們一再的提醒台中市政府要有作為好我是覺得說要落實啦是是是好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝署長請回接下來請蘇清泉委員好蘇清泉委員還是要練啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時19分）謝謝主席，首先請石部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我相信你如果曾經出國，回國的時候要進到國內會有檢疫的卡……"],["石部長崇良：對，紅卡、綠卡。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，紅卡跟綠卡。我今天早上也聽到部長有特別提到未來進到國內之後，全部一律都要檢查，是不是這樣子？"],["石部長崇良：剛剛我一直在確認這件事情，比較詳細的細節是不是可以請農業部防檢署說明？"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，其實早在108年院長去視察的時候，為什麼會增加這個手檢區？是因為當時我們的裁罰，只要是高強度的裁罰，一個案子就是罰100萬，當然也達到阻嚇的作用，但是很多民眾就認為這個額度太高，是不是我們應該在之前有重新讓遊客檢視的機會，這個時候我們要提醒他們是不是有忘了、忽略了，而帶了一些含有肉製品的東西，所以在這樣的機制之下，就指示我們在整個正式的通關檢查前設立了一個手檢區，協助遊客進來再次檢查自己的手提包包是不是含有肉製品或植物的產品。假設確實帶有這樣的產品，就可以在這裡先丟棄，到了海關通關的時候就不會有問題；但假設拒絕通過手檢區，到了海關這個地方，同樣要經過海關的檢測，假設在這裡被檢測出帶有高風險的東西，如果跟動植物有關，送給我們，動物的開罰一次就是20萬以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，一開始108年的時候應該算是比較嚴格。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：後面可能疫情比較緩和之後，整個狀況在海關那邊其實就沒有那麼嚴格，我相信署長本身應該也知道。我想請教的是，未來進到海關、進入國門之後，你們現在是一律都要檢查，或者還是會分紅線跟綠線，你們還是會這樣分嗎？如果民眾還是有帶，然後他拿的是綠色的卡片並直接走綠線的話，你們也是……"],["杜署長麗華：從這次事件來看，我們在檢討後有兩個措施，回去後會儘速來做研擬，第一個，針對手檢區行政指導的部分，是可以加、減他的法源依據跟裁罰的基準，包括假設拒絕的話，我們應該採取怎麼樣的措施，來對這些不配合的旅客加強做一些處罰的行為……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以他不配合，你們也沒有罰則？"],["杜署長麗華：目前是行政指導，因為當時的定位就是協助遊客在通關之前做再一次的檢視。","第二件事情，我們現在是有採取分流，若是39個高風險國家，那是一定要通過手檢區，非疫區的才不需要，我覺得為了要提高我們整個防疫的強度，或許我們會要求來自任何的國家都要通過檢查，這個部分我們會馬上來做研議。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們一直在說要阻絕於境外，所以我覺得這部分應該還要再加強。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外我想請教的是，在防檢站裡面大部分都是你們自己的同仁或者是委外的？"],["杜署長麗華：是委託一個保全……"],["黃委員秀芳：委託保全公司來執行……"],["杜署長麗華：委託保全公司來執行、協助這個業務。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們防疫署這邊的人員有多少？"],["杜署長麗華：我們桃園分署要派員來督導做這件事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是他在旁邊督導，然後讓保全人員去做這件事？"],["杜署長麗華：是，進行這些行為。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教的是，保全人員他有這樣的一個概念嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：有，我們一定要加強訓練。我們有不定期在做訓練，因為這些人員可能不是很了解，第一個，態度是最重要的；第二個，要怎麼樣來檢視這些行李，包括X光的判別，還有開箱以後，怎麼樣來處理等等。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這樣的業務是從什麼時候開始的？"],["杜署長麗華：108年。"],["黃委員秀芳：108年以後就交由保全去做這樣一個工作？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：108年以前就是你們自己的人員來做防檢？"],["杜署長麗華：之前並沒有設置這樣的機制。"],["黃委員秀芳：108年以後才設置這樣一個機制？"],["杜署長麗華：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得這部分應該還要再去加強，因為我們一直希望阻絕於境外，當然我們也希望國人不要把一些肉製品或者是動植物相關的東西帶進國內，雖然還是會有人這樣做，也許是不小心，也許是刻意、故意，對此，我覺得這方面就是我們政府的責任，所以要怎麼樣讓這個東西不要再帶進來，這方面你們應該還要再去加強。"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員再報告，也不乏有這樣的案例，就是從港澳進來，就我的了解，有的會拒絕、不經過檢查，結果到了海關區的時候，因為我們有檢疫犬在紅綠區，被檢疫犬嗅聞到了，後來從包包裡拿出來的是他在機上沒有吃完的三明治，肉檢被查獲就是開罰20萬，而他當下的作為就是不繳罰鍰，不繳就是拒絕入境，接著就被遣送回去了，所以都有這樣的案例發生。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我覺得這方面應該還要再加強。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：我再問一下部長跟食藥署署長。今天很多委員都在關心，就是進到臺灣來的這些郵包，我不知道你們到底要怎麼去檢查，但裡面可能有肉製品，可能有一些食物之類的，林林總總非常的多，我相信你們應該也沒有那個人力去檢查這麼多的包裹，所以未來你們要怎麼處理這樣的事情？"],["石部長崇良：雖然現在有一定的規定，就是6公斤以下、1,000美金以下是免驗的，但他還是要上去登錄他的這個東西是什麼，所以我們會再研究，就是有一些頻繁的狀況，用一些其他的勾稽方式，比如說他是不斷的、頻繁的在輸入自用，因為這個原則只適用於自用，如果不是自用的，不管多少公斤，都是要查驗的，所以就是針對很頻繁的輸入這些東西來自用的部分加強追查。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是因為這樣一個事件，我覺得你們這一個部分應該還要再加強。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員補充一下，不管是多少的量，他輸入的一定要是合法的、可以輸入之品項且登錄在關務署下，食藥署才會給予免查驗登記，這樣子兩邊配起來之後才會免驗，所以剛才講的，非洲豬瘟疫區跟豬肉相關的都是不准進來的，所以不會是被同意而得到所謂的免驗項次跟輸入項次，以上說明。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我們覺得小包裹這部分確實是目前一般民眾購買時常用的一個媒介、平臺，且網購平臺真的是非常非常多，每一天收到的這種小包裹真的是非常的多，我希望我們在查驗這方面應該還要再加強，不然有時候就是透過這樣一個小包裹就進來臺灣了。","另外請教農業部，未來除了邊境的肉品確實可以攔查，即可能在邊境就可以直接查驗，但如果是人員進到疫區，也許他有到過畜牧場，在回來之後他如果沒有通報，是不是有可能透過他的衣服、鞋子就把這個病毒直接帶進來？類似這樣的情況，你們未來要怎麼處理？"],["杜署長麗華：現在所有牧場的管理者、經營者全部都錄案在海關裡面，所以這些在通關的時候，全部都要經過一些相關的處理措施才可以入關。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以是針對所有的牧場？"],["杜署長麗華：對，牧場的經營者。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為這次非洲豬瘟的臺中案場在前幾天還查得到這個場主的雨鞋和他們的一些器具有這樣的病毒，表示這個病毒可以存在而且存在很久，據了解，它可以存活到1,000天，確實這個時間真的非常長。所以不論是肉品，或者是他的衣服、雨鞋，或者是一些器具，我覺得要落實清消這樣一個動作，要不然可能真的會透過其他的媒介又傳出去了。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們針對這一部分要如何處理？"],["杜署長麗華：我們現在列管的有390戶的經營者，他所有的出入境，尤其是入境的時候，所有相關的防疫配合措施一定要做到位。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外我要提醒的是，一旦發生這樣一個案例的時候，其實我覺得進出的人員應該也要管制，像這一次這個案場可能有很多媒體或很多人就這樣進出，當時也沒有管制啊！你們當時應該也都沒有管制吧？"],["杜署長麗華：其實我們第一時間就已經跟臺中市政府說，這個案場一定要管制，包括進出的人跟這個案場主也不能隨便亂跑，比方說跑到別的地方去聊天等等，所以這些都有要求他們要做；對於案主的部分，我們是有法規可以罰。"],["黃委員秀芳：有確定落實嗎？我覺得應該也沒落實！"],["杜署長麗華：所以前天警政署也跟地方配合去拉了封鎖線，針對整個案場……"],["黃委員秀芳：那個已經又過了幾天了。"],["杜署長麗華：對！所以這個也是我們一直要求臺中市政府應該要把案場這個地方先做一些阻絕，讓外人不要進去。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得防檢署這邊，未來如果有類似這樣的狀況，因為後來有人說彰化芬園可能也有一場有類似的情況，後來驗出是陰性，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：對，都陰性。"],["黃委員秀芳：那時候新聞這樣報出來的時候，隔天就很多媒體在播送，所以未來如果有類似的狀況，我覺得防檢署應該要嚴格管控，所有不相干的人確實就是不能進到案場裡面。"],["杜署長麗華：我再跟委員報告，我們中央應變中心其實大概每三個月就召開一次，在這次事件的時候，地方災變中心也開設了，事實上地方災變中心就有這個權限去做處理，所以我們一再提醒臺中市政府要有作為。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我是覺得要落實，好不好？謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：是！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝署長，請回。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f007d2a6c47095d4fce8220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c6865556a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:20:57 - 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那我現在直接開始主委我在這邊跟您說明一件事情就當人民的錢被騙走的時候人民只在乎一件事就是錢拿不拿得回來只要沒有辦法幫他拿回來錢拿回來的話那他就會覺得政府就是廢物在人民的眼中他只在乎錢拿不拿得回來"},{"start":34.384,"end":61.092,"text":"我想有沒有好的管理這就是您的責任這您應該非常的清楚我想請問一下因為我去年我就有質詢相關的議題了我想軍管會從去年說要打造亞洲的資產管理中心一個最簡單的問題請問虛擬資產是不是也在管理的範圍內虛擬資產在目前沒有目前沒有"},{"start":63.038,"end":64.76,"text":"我去年的時候去年我去年我有跟你提到就是說台灣目前投資虛擬市場大概有八成的交易都在境外交易所這個您知道吧知道那這個部分現在在您有什麼積極作為可以請您現在告訴我嗎"},{"start":84.178,"end":100.993,"text":"我想這個就是我們要訂定專訪一個很重要的過程因為現在大部分因為它透過進化的時候其實我們的轄管是沒辦法對這個做任何的這樣一個比如說管理但是我跟你說我看到你們的那個草案但你們那個草案還是管不到這八成的市場"},{"start":102.193,"end":120.499,"text":"對不對我想這不是只有台灣會面臨到的問題啦你不能這樣講啊我們也在努力但是我們要先解決國內的這些我們業者民眾更容易接觸到的市場那你至少要讓國人知道嘛有80%國人的投資是我幫不了你的"},{"start":121.059,"end":144.759,"text":"其实不是这样看我跟你说我不喜欢政府干一件事情政府常干一件事情就是说他常告诉国人说没问题有政府都可以值得信任结果事情发生之后又做不到那我今天很担心的一个就是说会不会我们告诉国人让国人误以为他今天去投资这些虚拟货币虚拟资产就到最后他认为被骗了以后政府也会帮他忙但是几乎都拿不回来"},{"start":145.379,"end":172.52,"text":"他到那一刻才發現原來我的政府沒有辦法幫我我是希望說這個在宣傳的時候你必須要告訴國人你不要讓國人誤以為你有這個能力所有投資教育 金融教育這個都是要同步來進行所以現在我看到了你們草案第一個是管不到那個國人80%投資的那個市場你管不到那再來您的草案裡面雖然有提到一些未來如果他是境外納管的話我們就會管理得到"},{"start":173.4,"end":202.199,"text":"當然啦 但是問題是你有沒有辦法納管他嘛他如果來申請落地剛才像那個也有委員提到就是說境外的這些的VASP他願意在台灣來納管他當然就會受到這樣的不是 那你就是被動我今天講的主軸是被動好不好 他願意來我才有辦法管他他不願意來 人民繼續被騙所以我們在那個第四條裡面有加上一個叫國際合作這是我們希望預留的空間因為確實這件事情是全世界共同來面對的問題"},{"start":203.5,"end":227.698,"text":"好 那沒關係啦你再推謝謝 謝謝委員的提醒那我跟你講那你就直接告訴人民直接告訴人民那80%真的不是我們能夠幫你的忙請不要投資你就只能這樣做啦你不能一方面講你要做什麼管理中心另外一方面什麼都做不到我跟你講啦你剛剛講的那個沒有錯啦他願意來納管的話但是呢現在那80%的這些境外交易所他也沒有主動向我們這邊台灣這邊來招攬或打廣告"},{"start":230.18,"end":251.879,"text":"是我們這裡台灣人自己上網去搜尋去那邊從事交易的所以你們也管不了你也說如果他願意來你被動的才能夠納管假設因為假設我們當我們開始納管台灣已經有非常安全的交易平台他購買是相同的標的 相同的服務我想這也是導引我們現在國人走向合規化"},{"start":252.52,"end":277.056,"text":"那就該講說委員所關心的問題就會被縮小但是我聽來聽去還是沒有辦法管理嘛你要他主動來嘛那你只能消極的被動看他要不要來嘛除此之外你完全沒有你對他沒有辦法那你有沒有辦法凍結那80%的這些投資的境外交易所我想委員是法律專家非常清楚這個是有困難的啦"},{"start":277.216,"end":302.914,"text":"对 就是有困难所以你要告诉国人嘛这才是重点我跟你说我这边看到的114年9月18号的那个你们会后的一些记者会的资料现在台湾虚拟交易已经到550亿美金了尤其2023 6月到2024 6月这一年的期间已经达到这么高那我们投资那个人的比例也从去年的12%上升到今年的24%也就是说"},{"start":303.374,"end":330.931,"text":"这个投资的数字一直在往上飙那我再跟你说因为时间的关系我直接跟你讲我现在还是认为这80%还是是境外之地无从管理但是你看一下我们邻近的一些对手日本韩国新加坡他们都有设专法在管理所以我现在看到的是每天我们国人被骗有3亿元但是呢我们什么都做不了我们对国外的一些韩巡也都石沉大海这我很清楚我以前韩巡国外也都石沉大海"},{"start":331.391,"end":358.904,"text":"所以这个没有办法落地替捐款的这个东西你还是得要让国人知道我管不了但是我要让国人知道我真的是管不了那像日本他之前就那个2022年的那个FTX那个破产那件事你一定很清楚日本政府就有帮他们国人争取到而且要回很多钱我们国家有没有办法做到当然我知道国际很困境但是这不是构成理由就回到我刚刚第一句话"},{"start":360.184,"end":375.172,"text":"人民被騙錢他只在乎政府有沒有幫他拿回錢拿了回錢你就是好政府拿不回錢他只會罵你是笨蛋罵你是廢物他不會在乎你到底問題出在哪裡好不好所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們要對這些"},{"start":376.431,"end":405.111,"text":"能夠有在台灣能夠可用可查可凍結的這加密貨幣市場秩序麻煩你們還是要建立起來這個不行的話就告訴國人我做不到不要讓國人以為政府管得了他投資了被騙那一天才知道原來政府管不了這是我在辦公室整天聽到的訊息好不好好謝謝我想保護那個消費者是我們的職責沒有什麼麻煩我們會來朝這方向努力那就要納管啦好謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請羅明采委員"},{"start":410.763,"end":411.165,"text":"主席各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時20分）麻煩主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委，我跟您說明一件事情，當人民的錢被騙走的時候，人民只在乎一件事就是錢拿不拿得回來，只要沒有辦法幫他把錢拿回來，他就會覺得政府就是廢物，在人民的眼中，他只在乎錢拿不拿得回來，我想有沒有好的管理，這就是您的責任，你應該非常地清楚。我想請問一下，因為我去年就有質詢相關的議題，金管會從去年說要打造亞洲資產管理中心，一個最簡單的問題，請問虛擬資產是不是也在管理的範圍內？"],["彭主任委員金隆：虛擬資產在目前沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前沒有，好。去年我有跟你提到，臺灣目前投資虛擬市場大概有8成的交易都在境外交易所，這個您知道吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。在這個部分，現在您有什麼積極作為，可以請您現在告訴我嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是我們要訂定專法一個很重要的過程，因為現在大部分交易透過境外的時候，我們的轄管是沒辦法對此做任何管理。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我跟你說，我看到你們的草案，你們的草案還是管不到這8成的市場，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想這不是只有臺灣會面臨到的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不能這樣講啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也在努力，但是我們要先解決國內的這些業者、民眾更容易接觸到的市場。"],["吳委員宗憲：你至少要讓國人知道，有80%國人的投資是政府幫不了你的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不是這樣看啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，我不喜歡政府幹一件事情，政府常常幹一件事情就是告訴國人沒問題，有政府都可以值得信任，結果事情發生之後又做不到。我今天很擔心的一點，會不會我們告訴國人，讓國人誤以為今天去投資這些虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產，到最後他認為被騙了以後，政府也會幫他忙，但是幾乎都拿不回來，他到那一刻才發現，原來政府沒有辦法幫忙。我是希望這個在宣傳的時候，你必須要告訴國人，不要讓國人誤以為你有這個能力，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個在金融教育確實是需要，因為所有的投資教育、金融教育都是要同步來進行。"],["吳委員宗憲：現在我看到了你們的草案，第一個是國人80%的投資市場，你管不到。再來，您的草案裡面雖然有提到一些……"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來如果是境外納管的話，我們就會管理得到啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啊！但問題是你有沒有辦法納管，重點在這個地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他來申請落地，像剛才有委員提到境外的VASP願意在臺灣納管，當然就會受到這樣的約束。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，那你就是被動，我今天講的主軸是被動，好不好？他願意來，我才有辦法管他；他不願意來，人民繼續被騙，錢也拿不回來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們在第四條裡面有加上一個叫國際合作，我們希望預留個空間，因為確實這件事情是全世界要共同面對的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係啦，你再推給全世界。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你就直接告訴人民那80%，真的不是我們能夠幫你的忙，請不要投資，就只能這樣做了，你不能一方面講你要做什麼管理中心，另外一方面什麼都做不到。我跟你講，你剛剛講的那個沒有錯，他願意來納管的話，但是現在80%的這些境外交易所，它也沒有主動向臺灣來招攬或打廣告，是我們臺灣人自己上網去搜尋、去那邊從事交易的，所以你們也管不了，你也說如果他願意來，被動的才能夠納管，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，當我們開始納管，臺灣已經有非常安全的交易平台，他購買的是相同的標的、相同的服務，我想這也是導引我們現在國人走向合規化，就如我剛才講說委員所關心的問題就會被縮小。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，但是我聽來聽去，還是沒有辦法管理，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會努力跟他講……"],["吳委員宗憲：你要他主動來嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：你只能消極被動的看他要不要來，除此之外，你對他完全沒有辦法……"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他看中臺灣的市場……"],["吳委員宗憲：我問你有沒有辦法凍結那80%投資的這些境外交易所得，有沒有辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員是法律專家，非常清楚這個是有困難的。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是有困難，所以你要告訴國人，這才是重點。我跟你說我看到114年9月18號你們會後記者會的一些資料，現在臺灣虛擬交易已經到550億美金了，尤其2023年6月到2024年6月這一年的期間已經達到這麼高，投資人比例也從去年12%上升到今年的24%，也就是說投資的數字一直在往上飆。因為時間的關係，我直接跟你講，我現在還是認為這80%還是境外之地，無從管理。但是你看一下我們鄰近的一些對手，日本、韓國、新加坡他們都有設專法在管理。所以我現在看到的是，每天我們國人被騙的有3億元，但是我們什麼都做不了，我們對國外的一些函詢也都石沉大海，這我很清楚，我以前函詢國外也都石沉大海，所以這個沒有辦法落地監管的東西，你還是得要讓國人知道，我管不了，但是我要讓國人知道我真的是管不了，那像日本之前就2022年FTX破產的那件事，你一定很清楚。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：日本政府就有幫他們國人爭取到，而且要回很多錢，我們國家有沒有辦法做到？當然我知道國際上的困境，但是這不構成理由，回到我剛剛第一句話，人民被騙錢，他只在乎政府有沒有幫他拿回錢，拿得回錢，你就是好政府；拿不回錢，他只會罵你是笨蛋、罵你是廢物，他不會在乎你到底問題出在哪裡，好不好？所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們對這些在臺灣能夠可用、可查、可凍結的加密貨幣市場秩序還是要建立起來……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個不麻煩。"],["吳委員宗憲：不行的話，就告訴國人你做不到，不要讓國人以為政府管得了，他投資了，被騙的那一天才知道原來政府管不了，這是我在辦公室整天聽到的訊息，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想保護消費者是我們的職責，沒有什麼麻煩，我們會朝這方向來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就要納管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0076fc5eb7b5ada62ff253141cf72ece13cec708ebf7c6865573c96730c4a1dd3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:21:44 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部長請那林部長我想請教啊APEC明年在大陸嘛是不是對那我們要不要參加要"},{"start":21.155,"end":49.55,"text":"一定參加嘛這是我們的權利平等參加一定參加你會不會覺得因為APEC我看參加的這個領袖高官會啊基本上都是國家的領導人嘛就是總統啦 主席啊或者是總理之類的嘛那我們長期被矮化啦老實講對台灣是非常不公平的啦但是也沒有辦法因為國際限制嘛那"},{"start":51.435,"end":78.642,"text":"問題是我們能不能爭取到再往上突破一點比如說卸任的總統副總統用這樣子來取代現任的總統副總統我們有沒有在努力這一方面不是只有企業界的現在都找企業界的當然林新立當過行政院副院長這個還講得過去可是畢竟只是行政院副院長他如果是副總統當過副總統那就不一樣了"},{"start":80.002,"end":96.631,"text":"其他世界國家都是國家領袖啊我們應該努力一下當然是最好是現任總統副總統啦但是卸任的也可以啦如果以來講的話從這個角度來 林部長要不要回答一下是 我們會努力短期內很難做到勒"},{"start":104.175,"end":109.279,"text":"如果大家都很支持我們當然支持啊你能夠信任總統這個賴清德區我們更支持啊對不對所以你現在講我就拉回來講一句話啦川普講說台灣是台灣喔這個大家當然很振奮啦任何人任何國家對台灣好的我們都支持台灣就是台灣這到底什麼意思這到底什麼意思"},{"start":131.104,"end":137.866,"text":"台灣是台灣 中國是中國吧那就是一邊一國這是委員講的啦就是說美中的談判不要就是一定要跟台灣議題掛鉤啦這個意思啦不是 你要知道他權文嘛他的權文後面他說台灣有晶片廠商去美國投資這個才是重點所以他可以自己決定不要透過誰決定 自己決定他重點放在生理的角度來大家都了解嘛"},{"start":160.753,"end":172.597,"text":"這個川普他是個生意人 他談世界的國際大事也是用生意的角度在談所以講台灣是台灣 後面你要把全文全部讀完讀完就是 還你台灣有晶片商來美國投資他整個才是一個complete如果你過度的解讀 當然如果你要這樣講的話"},{"start":185.581,"end":190.965,"text":"那我們可以問下一步啊如果你把他承認說 喔這一邊一那個的話那請他承認台灣做得到嗎 請問外交部長要不要跟美國提出要求既然這麼支持台灣 請你承認我們有啊 美國有制定台灣關係法關係法跟建交啦 我講的是承認 是建交啦不管跟中華民國建交也好 跟台灣建交也好不管什麼名稱都好 我們都支持啊"},{"start":211.496,"end":234.883,"text":"對不對所以這個來看的話不是這個來看很清楚的來看他這是深利人講的話深利人講的話有時候點山倒市啊改來改去明明要課中國大陸100%的關稅後來慫掉了也沒有啦對不對也沒有啦變來變去啦那最後一個問題就是我們現在努力了半天外交部長努力了半天其實講起來我們希望參加國際的組織"},{"start":240.927,"end":246.12,"text":"中藥的越來越少連IKEA這個也沒有連WHO的WHA"},{"start":249.901,"end":272.421,"text":"做個觀察員都沒有一直倒退參加的名稱最多的就是Chinese Taipei不然就是Chinese TaipeiAPEC的Chinese Taipei不然就是WTO的台澎金馬獨立關稅領域還有最糟糕的是什麼亞洲開發銀行的中國台北或者台北"},{"start":273.562,"end":292.617,"text":"看嘛 中國這個裡面唯一用ROC的是亞非農村發展組織這個東西非常少的組織國際上重視的你們外交部常常講我實質外交幾乎全部都是三分之二以上都用潛尼斯台配這個名稱您滿意嗎"},{"start":296.092,"end":315.701,"text":"因為這個是我們當時參加APEC的會籍的名稱嘛是嘛但是我們全世界我們有參加目前統計我們就有46個有正式會員的國際組織其中全台北占19個還有其他的 很多元有沒有中華民國 也有啊 幾個幾個 告訴我 四個四個 台灣的幾個"},{"start":321.82,"end":332.676,"text":"也是四個四個 台灣的四個你不是有四十幾個嗎怎麼會有四十九個 還有剛剛講的啊比如說那個關稅領域也是一個啊其他的方式都有啊這個加起來不到四十六個啦"},{"start":333.712,"end":338.336,"text":"三分之二都是用潛意識來配這個東西我覺得你們要努力在追求說看到川普這樣子大家很興奮的之前努力爭取國際組織正民化如果要的話正民化把它往前一推最少通通變成除了中華民國 除了台灣以外通通是潛意識來配"},{"start":358.191,"end":359.035,"text":"好歹這樣子吧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時21分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請外交部的林部長。"],["主席：來，部長請。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：林部長，我想請教APEC明年是不是會在大陸舉辦？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們要不要參加？"],["林部長佳龍：要。"],["賴委員士葆：一定參加嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：這是我們的權利，平等參加。"],["賴委員士葆：好，一定參加，我看參加APEC領袖高峰會的基本上都是國家的領導人，就是總統、主席或者是總理之類的，那我們長期被矮化，老實講，這對台灣是非常不公平的，但是也沒有辦法，因為國際現實嘛！問題是我們能不能爭取再往上突破一點？比如說，由卸任的總統、副總統參加，用這樣子的方式來取代由現任的總統、副總統參加，我們在這一方面有沒有在努力？不是只有找企業界的人，現在都是找企業界的人，當然，林信義當過行政院副院長，所以還講得過去，可是畢竟他只是當過行政院副院長，他如果是當過副總統，那就不一樣了！因為參加的人都是世界上很多國家的領袖，我們應該努力一下，當然最好是現任的總統、副總統，但是卸任的也可以啦！從這個角度來講的話，林部長要不要回答一下？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們會努力。"],["賴委員士葆：短期內應該很難做到，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果大家都很支持……"],["賴委員士葆：我們當然支持啊！你能夠讓現任的賴清德總統去，我們更支持啊！對不對？問題就是沒辦法啊！所以現在我就拉回來講一句話，川普說「台灣就是台灣」，大家當然很振奮，任何人、任何國家對台灣好，我們都支持，可是他說的「台灣就是台灣」到底是什麼意思？這到底是什麼意思？"],["林部長佳龍：台灣是台灣、中國是中國吧！"],["賴委員士葆：那就是一邊一國……"],["林部長佳龍：這是委員講的啦！就是說……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，是你講的喔！"],["林部長佳龍：就是說美中的談判不要就是一定要跟台灣議題掛鉤，是這個意思啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你要知道他的全文嘛！他後面的全文是說台灣有晶片廠商去美國投資，這個才是重點，所以他可以自己決定，不要透過誰決定，是自己決定，他的重點是放在生意的角度，大家都了解嘛！川普是一個生意人，他談世界的國際大事也是用生意的角度在談，所以他講「台灣就是台灣」，你要把後面的全文全部讀完，就是歡迎台灣的晶片廠商到美國投資，這樣整個才是complete，不必過度的解讀，當然如果你要這樣講的話，那我們可以問下一步啊！如果你認為他承認一邊一國的話，那就請他承認台灣，做得到嗎？請問外交部長要不要跟美國提出要求：既然這麼支持台灣，請你承認我們？"],["林部長佳龍：有啊！美國有制定台灣關係法。"],["賴委員士葆：我講的是承認、是建交啦！不管跟中華民國建交也好，跟台灣建交也好，不管什麼名稱都好，我們都支持啊！對不對？所以我們很清楚的來看，這就是生意人講的話，生意人講的話有時候會顛三倒四、改來改去，明明要課中國大陸100%的關稅，後來慫掉了，也沒有了啊！對不對？就是變來變去。","最後一個問題，現在外交部長努力了老半天，其實講起來，我們希望參加國際的組織，可是重要的越來越少，連ICAO也沒有，對不對？連在WHO的WHA當觀察員都沒有，做了之後卻一直倒退，參加的名稱用最多的就是Chinese Taipei，像在APEC就是用Chinese Taipei，不然就是WTO的台澎金馬個別關稅領域，還有最糟糕的是什麼？就是亞洲開發銀行的「中國台北」（Taipei,China），唯一用ROC的是亞非農村發展組織，只有非常非常少的組織是用這個名稱。在國際上重視的，你們外交部常常講實質外交，幾乎有三分之二以上都是寫Chinese Taipei，對這個名稱你滿意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個是我們當時參加APEC時的會籍名稱。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：但是根據統計目前我們有參加全世界46個國際組織、是正式的會員，其中有19個是用Chinese Taipei，還有其他的，很多元。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有中華民國？"],["林部長佳龍：也有啊！"],["賴委員士葆：幾個？告訴我有幾個。"],["林部長佳龍：4個。"],["賴委員士葆：用台灣的是幾個？"],["林部長佳龍：也是4個。"],["賴委員士葆：你不是說有參加四十幾個嗎？怎麼會只有19個？"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛也有講，比如說，關稅領域也是一個，其他的方式都有啊！"],["賴委員士葆：這些加起來不到46個，有三分之二都是用Chinese Taipei啦！這個東西我覺得你們要努力，在看到川普這樣子說讓大家很興奮之外，要努力爭取在國際組織正名化，如果要正名化，就要把它往前推，除了中華民國、除了台灣以外，通通是Chinese 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個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見"},{"start":114.102,"end":123.305,"text":"我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了"},{"start":137.386,"end":151.432,"text":"因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的"},{"start":159.216,"end":175.262,"text":"格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是"},{"start":175.842,"end":178.244,"text":"可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎"},{"start":206.038,"end":210.519,"text":"一個 當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些"},{"start":228.484,"end":236.399,"text":"投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意"},{"start":237.168,"end":258.007,"text":"所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是"},{"start":260.189,"end":264.032,"text":"哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的"},{"start":284.165,"end":302.807,"text":"這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣"},{"start":304.469,"end":307.65,"text":"然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦"},{"start":331.758,"end":341.326,"text":"所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了"},{"start":361.441,"end":371.887,"text":"這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的"},{"start":374.753,"end":391.833,"text":"對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經"},{"start":394.516,"end":414.346,"text":"談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告"},{"start":415.64,"end":417.261,"text":"我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經"},{"start":433.269,"end":436.854,"text":"是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個"},{"start":449.149,"end":453.332,"text":"比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰"},{"start":466.121,"end":470.444,"text":"你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是"},{"start":494.197,"end":502.966,"text":"適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量"},{"start":511.954,"end":529.77,"text":"可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為"},{"start":536.616,"end":542.639,"text":"或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄"},{"start":563.63,"end":567.153,"text":"現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的"},{"start":579.824,"end":583.129,"text":"那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊"},{"start":596.207,"end":616.303,"text":"那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈"},{"start":619.932,"end":634.409,"text":"我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因"},{"start":635.47,"end":660.839,"text":"去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過"},{"start":661.707,"end":670.832,"text":"像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布"},{"start":687.82,"end":702.041,"text":"經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然"},{"start":703.222,"end":719.373,"text":"在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警"},{"start":723.295,"end":734.781,"text":"有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為"},{"start":752.291,"end":757.477,"text":"應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時8分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長，早安。剛剛也有委員關切我們最近看到美國智庫「國防優先」亞洲事務主任高德斯坦，他是比較屬於保守派的學者，他在美國時代雜誌上投書指出，近期中東、俄烏戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光，可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點。在這個風暴的核心，他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接……等於是直接指責賴總統是魯莽的領導人，當然這個在國內可能也有非常多不同意的說法，可是因為我們從今年5月開始，不到半年的時間，已經有非常多像國際重要的期刊也好、智庫報告也好，或者很多學者其實都有做這樣的示警，要求華府應該要約束賴政府現在很多可能的作為，或者像一些談話，那部長怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，個別的學者專家或者投書，我們當然都要尊重，也要注意，可是我們也觀察到，確實有一股想要引導，甚至去影響美國輿論跟對台政策。我們知道什麼是主流的意見，什麼是我們政府對政府之間的關係，至於多元的意見，針對這些也有不同的反映，有一些是基於擔心，希望能夠提醒，有一些背後比較有大的財團在系統性的支持智庫，去發表對他意識形態有利的主張，我們也注意到了。"],["馬委員文君：因為其實是我們把它強化了，我剛剛提到的就是說，從5月開始到現在，已經有很多類似這樣的發表，不管期刊也好，說法也好，可是我們現在……因為它一出來的時候，其實我們國安會的秘書長首先跳出來，而且講得非常大聲。以他的格局或者以他的代表性，事實上這個不應該由他講，他出來反嗆，因為所有在國際上面……雖然剛剛我們提到在時代的這一篇，它不是最主流的，在美國可能也不是，可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法，那由我們國安會的秘書長直接跳出來對嗆，這是恰當的嗎？因為他也是外交體系出身，他也曾經擔任過外交部長，直接這樣出來嗆，這樣是適當的嗎？如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音，沒有辦法對各種情勢去研析跟判斷，或者不能接納我們不能接受的狀態，那對我們是有利的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然委員提到的……確實我們就事論事是一回事，那怎麼樣在應處的時候不要幫它放大聲量，這個當然也在評估。至於個案，我不予評論，我講的是整體上確實有一些背後比較不同的，或是說有一些投書被放大，是有一些帶風的力量，那我們當然也要非常地注意。"],["馬委員文君：所以就這些，身為外交部，我們在面對國際，現在講民主價值已經沒有意義了，因為顯然川普政府、川普總統也不在乎所謂的民主價值，因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民，雖然沒有動到一兵一卒，可是不管對哪一個國家，包括非常友好的盟國其實也不手軟，雖然會比較好一點。所以就這個部分，我想我們沒有必要自己再欺騙自己，一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石，或者說我們跟他有多好多好，或者我們是理念相近的民主國家，這些我覺得其實已經不符合我們務實的面對外交困境。","不只是外交而已，我們整體現在面對……因為我們看到川普總統昨天跟日本首相談定了，然後也非常地友好，今天初步看到跟韓國也談定了，他們大概都是15%，都是一樣。可是我們付出的事實上比日本多得多。我們一直說美國對我們非常重視，也是他不可或缺的，可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來，他們的關稅除了大概的方向已經談定，甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦，所以這個對我們來說，我們到底還缺了什麼？這個部分外交部有沒有掌握？因為從台積電赴美設廠，然後投資美國天然氣，還有採購長約、降低美車關稅、增加對美農產品的採購，還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施、加大投資美方產業、提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上，而且還要加大對美軍事採購，我們做了這麼多、這麼多，可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果，你身為外交部的部長，就這個部分你會怎麼看？接下來會是我們了啊！"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們的談判團隊有一個方案，也跟美方在實質內容上討論到接近總結，至於說時機，我想就是誠如委員所講的，一個國家、一個國家已經談定了，之後台灣當然就會變成下一波很優先要來達成談判的……就是這個方案要變成一個共識，包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告。"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛提到，我們付出這麼多以後，今天川習會會有一個初步的結果，我們不曉得他們會談到什麼，台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況，可見其實我們在這個部分，除了我剛剛講的，我們付出的那個是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下，這也是我們現在還是非常不能接受的條件，可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉。希望在川習會結束以後，我們還有一個比較具體的結果，到時候再做一個比較實際的討論。可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒，不要一直把美國放得非常大，把美國認為對我們非常重要，因為這個也是認知戰，你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦，其實對我們完全不利，我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判，也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾，去跟美方做更多的要求，我覺得這個是我們的立場，這個部分應該要做一些調整，因為日本跟韓國剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候，他們馬上回來，還說國內不能接受，他們也不能接受，他們是適時地表達，而我們台灣不是，所以這個部分，我們還是特別提醒。","另外是長臂管轄的部分，其實現在看到中方提出這個部分，當然政治人物有政治考量，可是就這個部分，我們在面對這樣的問題，比如說前一陣子發生在德國，就是我們有國人去旅行的時候，因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距，我不知道他差距多大，可是他就是被留置了三、四個小時，對於這樣子的狀況來說，我們能夠有什麼樣有效的作為？或者我們能夠做什麼？我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好，或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員，或者像軍情局，或者政戰的心戰大隊相關軍方人員，不管他是真是假，可是他被公布出來，對於這樣子的長臂管轄，現在可能影響到政治人物的時候，大家開始有點緊張，因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的，他說長臂管轄這個只是來嚇嚇大家，可是現在大家會比較慎重，認為他可能玩真的。就這個部分，我們可以有什麼樣的作為？比如像我們對這些軍方的人員，因為他就是來服役，我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的保障，這六十幾個國家……因為他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去，如果外交部今天的報告上面說，中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯等六十多個國家簽訂刑事司法互助條約，然後也跟六十多個國家完成簽署引渡條約，也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審，那就這些部分，這六十幾個國家我們有沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["馬委員文君：那會不會適時的公布？"],["林部長佳龍：我們內部都有針對不同國家，因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條約、司法互助條約，或當地是不是有法律，因為這必須兩國都有這樣的刑法規定，以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因去做所謂的引渡，這種樣態我們都做了分析。標準作業程序怎麼做，我們的外館除了一方面宣導以外，我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商，避免發生意外。如果發生的時候，因為還是不能排除中共用某一個國家想要立威作為案例，要來恐嚇大家，這個情形我們都想過。"],["馬委員文君：像之前的詐騙犯，他們最怕的就是直接被引渡回中國，你們會不會適時地公布我們現在講的那六十幾個國家？因為這樣對當事人來說，他們可能比較可以加以防範，否則等到以後真的發生了，你要想辦法去營救會很難，所以我們現在問如果你想預防的話，你要怎麼預防？會不會適時地公布這六十幾個國家？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我跟委員報告，經過我們跟他們協商之後，如果他們也回應說他們不會依據中共的那一套、他們也必須守法的時候，我們當然也要考量公布到什麼程度，但是如果他們本身就是要配合中國，我們當然要做預警。"],["馬委員文君：對，我們有比較擔心的國家，如果是不會的國家就沒關係，像美國就不會嘛！像日本可能也不會，我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的國家，你要讓大家知道哪些國家可能會，那這樣的風險是不是……"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟當地國政府有在交涉，他們的回應如果是正面的，我們當然也會考量，避免過度反應……"],["馬委員文君：會適時地公布嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定要示警，在有這種危險的時候，我們一定要先示警。"],["馬委員文君：我們不希望你等到發生以後再去處理，現在也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為，像之前發生在德國，其實美國也常常這樣，當他有一些疑慮的時候，他就整個翻箱檢查，也都有那種非常不尊重的作法，所以我們希望這個部分要讓大家有一點防範或要有一些積極的作為，應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談，對這個部分我們希望可以有有效的作法，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0019ebe39b160bc8698220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c6865549826321c0b4a3205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:13:35 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朱副總裁謝謝主委還有央行我想在此先感謝這邊都對台幣穩定幣表達開放支持 審慎友好尤其彭主委勇於認識對於這樣的一個新科技跟新的產業審慎友好我們要再次感謝"},{"start":25.754,"end":54.373,"text":"今天想要問一下目前我們鄰近的幾個國家日本 新加坡 韓國都有自身的穩定幣或即將推出JPYC更是在10月27號可以說是正式推出他們有瞄準目標三年內流通市值要達10兆日元大概650億美元想請教一下主委對於我們台幣穩定幣有沒有一個具體的目標預計多少年內要到達多少市值有沒有一個相關的想法"},{"start":55.954,"end":76.653,"text":"各位報告因為其實我想在從國際貨幣的市佔率來看的話我覺得我們在台幣穩定幣我們確實必須非常務實的說我們確實在國際的貨幣上面跟美元跟日元或是跟其他的歐元還是有段距離所以我們在這部分我們現在在規劃還是在建制度"},{"start":77.934,"end":90.744,"text":"我們現在沒有針對這個做一個未來的預想好 謝謝主委不過我想接下來還是希望政府要確立一定的目標目標可以不要太高遠但是可以務實這樣才能夠讓我們相關的執法有夠連動"},{"start":94.767,"end":123.686,"text":"然后呢在目标明确的情况之下我们才能够设计更多的配套我觉得是可以大胆的来设立目标那另外呢也想请教一下因为现在这个行政院一直还没有把草案的版本送进来有一些说法呢说这个央行是不是有一些顾虑但是呢我们之前又问了央行总裁他说我们就跟这个彭主委都有很好的互动不过我还是要在这里给央行一个机会啦就是我们理解其实稳定币"},{"start":124.426,"end":150.996,"text":"有可能一旦打通了這個台幣穩定幣跟美元穩定幣的流通很可能會影響到這個外匯的量體那台灣我們算是一個外匯管制的一個狀態我想是不是給央行一個機會你們有沒有什麼樣的顧慮有沒有什麼concern可不可以提出來因為其實業界現在很擔心你如果說你有擔憂所以想要晚一點大家也就接受你如果覺得沒有擔憂那我們就快一點"},{"start":151.596,"end":170.972,"text":"其實在這個薛丁格的狀態是大家最擔心的因為有些產業會提前投入結果到最後門又沒有開這其實會造成產業資源的浪費央行這邊副總裁能不能稍微提一下有沒有顧慮哪些顧慮也許就提出來嘛我們也許就了解一下讓產業可以找一點因應這樣子"},{"start":172.473,"end":178.037,"text":"其實我們跟金管會是密切合作都支持這樣的穩定幣的推動但即使沒有穩定幣央行目前就跨境移動這個部分我們有一些要申報資料"},{"start":189.867,"end":205.754,"text":"照外匯管理這個做所以將來如果的確有譬如說類似美元穩定幣這個部分我們還是會依照現在的規則不變那我們局長大概還有一些補充意見"},{"start":207.446,"end":223.273,"text":"我想我們在跟金管溝通工作都很順暢啦所以我們的意見都有提供給他們的那我想主要是因為除了所謂的央行的業務之外還有洗錢房子還有這些詐騙的案子這些我覺得那個後續都是在行政委裡面做討論的所以可能有一段時間需要做這樣的一個溝通"},{"start":224.113,"end":240.512,"text":"好我想這個更多的訊息找一點多一點的跟我們的業界來溝通不要有這種隱含的顧慮我想這樣也不好其實大家都會願意來配合央行跟金管會這邊那我想外匯的部分我也表達一下從技術的角度來看其實這個所謂的貨幣的交換"},{"start":243.235,"end":266.462,"text":"有穩定幣的形式存在反而它的帳本是更清晰更清楚更容易追溯的我認為甚至有可能對於外匯的適度管制上面不見得比較差反而比較好這一點跟各位交換一下意見那也希望我們能夠用創新的思維來擁抱這些新的科技跟技術那另外還有一點就是這個我們這個外匯剛剛已經提過了"},{"start":268.503,"end":289.073,"text":"另外一個是我們關於穩定幣的發行其實有提到在境外發行的穩定幣要取得主管機關的同意其實我們有看到日本也是用類似的做法可是我們也思考到像日本的人口1.24億其實台灣的市場也相對的小"},{"start":289.733,"end":318.036,"text":"那你說到時候國外已經流通的USDT USDC是不是又要請他們的發行商又要是不是來落地又要來驗資然後又要主管機關許可這個過程可能會很繁複別人也不一定第一時間把台灣當作第一優先的市場到時候又變成哇這些東西還沒有許可大家都還在流通人人違法很可能還會出現假USDT假USDC這個部分主委有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":318.456,"end":343.054,"text":"是不是能夠有一些更加彈性的機制在執法裡面來設立這樣謝謝謝謝委員剛剛提到那個法條母法的那個條文裡面確實提到因為我們發行穩定幣也是一個監理主權的象徵所以我們今天既然我們對國人發行要同意那當然不可能對外國人沒有做這個要求我想我們會按照考慮到務實實用的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":345.316,"end":357.649,"text":"這不會是個障礙我們只要完全大家是站在一個公平一致的基礎上來做這件事主席我最後爭取幾秒鐘的時間想跟央行還有主委這邊分享現在這個國家貨幣風起雲湧"},{"start":361.333,"end":384.594,"text":"這個全球的政府都在想要持有比特幣作為一個風險的對沖那我們現在單押在單一貨幣的量體有點太高了這很可能會導致我們在技術上變成所謂的single point of failure這個風險會太高那其實也有一些國家比特幣持有的量很少也沒有關係開始做就好"},{"start":385.114,"end":413.645,"text":"那加上比特幣的來源不一定要購買有的國家也是從這個查獲不法所得他如果沒有要返還受害者的一個狀態也可以直接就變成國家的儲備之一我也希望這個央行跟金管會這邊有沒有機會未來能不能就這個議題也稍微討論一下簡單的答覆我們會遵照委員的指示會繼續去研究"},{"start":414.315,"end":416.561,"text":"好 謝謝 主席 謝謝主委 謝謝副總裁 謝謝各位議員接下來我們請吳宗憲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時13分）謝謝主席。有請金管會彭主委以及央行朱副總裁，謝謝。"],["主席：請彭主委、朱副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝主委，還有央行。我在此先感謝你們都對臺幣穩定幣表達開放、支持、審慎、友好，尤其彭主委勇於任事，對於這樣的新科技跟新的產業審慎、友好，我們要再次感謝。","今天想要問一下，目前鄰近的幾個國家──日本、新加坡、韓國，都有自身的穩定幣或即將推出，JPYC更在10月27號可以說是正式推出。他們有瞄準，目標三年內流通市值要達10兆日圓，大概650億美元，想請教一下主委，對於臺幣穩定幣有沒有一個具體的目標？預計多少年內要到達多少市值？有沒有相關的想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：從國際貨幣的市占率來看，我們必須非常、非常務實的說，臺幣穩定幣確實在國際貨幣上，跟美元、日圓或歐元還是有一段距離，所以我們在這部分現在的規劃還是在建制度，我們現在沒有針對這個做未來的預想。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝主委。不過接下來我還是希望政府要確立一定的目標，目標可以不要太高遠，但是可以務實，這樣才能夠讓相關的子法連動，然後在目標明確的情況之下，我們才能夠設計更多的配套，我覺得可以大膽的來設立目標。","另外也想請教一下，因為行政院一直還沒有把草案的版本送進來，有一些說法說央行是不是有一些顧慮？但是我們之前問了央行總裁，他說他們跟彭主委都有很好的互動。不過我還是要在這裡給央行一個機會，就我們理解，一旦打通了臺幣穩定幣跟美元穩定幣的流通，很可能會影響到外匯的量體。臺灣算是一個外匯管制的狀態，我想是不是給央行一個機會？你們有沒有什麼樣的顧慮？有沒有什麼concern？可不可以提出來？因為業界現在很擔心，如果你說有擔憂，所以想要晚一點，大家也就接受；你如果覺得沒有擔憂，我們就快一點。其實在薛丁格的狀態是大家最擔心的，因為有些產業會提前投入，結果到最後門又沒有開，會造成產業資源的浪費。央行副總裁能不能稍微提一下，有沒有顧慮？哪些顧慮？也許就提出來讓我們了解一下，讓產業可以早一點因應。"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實我們跟金管會密切合作，都支持穩定幣推動。即使沒有穩定幣，央行目前就跨境移動的部分，有一些要申報資料照外匯管理做。將來如果的確有比如類似美元穩定幣的部分，我們還是會依照現在的規則不變。","此外，我們局長還有一些補充意見。"],["謝局長鳳瑛：我們跟金管會溝通的過程都很順暢，所以我們的意見都有提供給他們。主要是除了央行的業務之外，還有洗錢防制、詐騙的案子，這些後續都要在行政院裡面討論，所以可能有一段時間需要做這樣的溝通。"],["葛委員如鈞：如果有更多的訊息，早一點、多一點跟業界溝通，不要有這種隱含的顧慮，我想這樣也不好，其實大家都會願意配合央行跟金管會。","有關外匯的部分，我也表達一下，從技術的角度來看，其實所謂的貨幣交換有穩定幣的形式存在，反而它的帳本是更清晰、更清楚、更容易追溯的。我認為甚至有可能對於外匯的適度管制上，不見得比較差，反而比較好，這一點跟各位交換一下意見，也希望我們能夠用創新的思維來擁抱這些新的科技跟技術。","剛剛已經提過外匯了，另外還有一點是關於穩定幣的發行，其實有提到在境外發行的穩定幣要取得主管機關同意。我們有看到日本也是用類似的作法，可是我們也思考到像日本的人口1.24億，其實臺灣的市場相對小，到時候是不是又要請國外已經流通的USDT、USDC的發行商來落地、驗資，然後又要主管機關許可？這個過程可能會很繁複，別人也不一定第一時間把臺灣當作第一優先的市場。到時候又變成這些東西還沒有許可，大家卻都在流通，人人違法，很可能還會出現假USDT、假USDC，這個部分主委有沒有什麼樣的想法？是不是能夠有一些更加彈性的機制在子法裡面來設立？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。剛剛那個確實在母法的條文裡面有提到，因為我們發行穩定幣也是一個監理主權的象徵，既然今天我們對國人發行要同意，當然不可能對外國人沒有這個要求。我們會從務實、實用的角度來思考這個問題，這不會是個障礙，我們只要大家站在一個公平一致的基礎上來做這件事。"],["葛委員如鈞：我最後想跟央行還有主委分享，現在國家貨幣風起雲湧，全球的政府都想要持有比特幣作為風險的對沖，而我們現在單押在單一貨幣的量體有點太高了，很可能會導致我們在技術上變成所謂的single point of failure，這個風險會太高，其實也有一些國家比特幣持有的量很少，也沒有關係，開始做就好，加上比特幣的來源不一定要購買，有的國家也是從查獲不法所得，如果沒有要返還受害者的一個狀態，也可以直接就變成國家的儲備之一。我也希望央行跟金管會這邊有沒有機會、未來能不能就這個議題也稍微討論一下？"],["主席：請簡短答復。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們會遵照委員的指示，繼續去研究。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝副總裁。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員。","接下來我們請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00ca2407420bc51c2d8220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c68655b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:01:17 - 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我請金管委彭主委好 我們請彭主委"},{"start":9.403,"end":34.532,"text":"委員好這個去年你一上任那時候你就確認了說我們金管會會來訂定我們台灣首部的虛擬資產業管理法這非常的好而且你們確實也做了那也在今年的6月27號就把這個案子那就送到行政院去審查"},{"start":35.912,"end":62.776,"text":"這個案子的內容當然就專法這個內容包括消費者的保護包括市場交易的行為規範包括他們這個資產保管包括消費者的保護這些都非常的好業者的許可條件這些都是專法裡面所訂定這非常好可是從送進去到現在將近四個月了"},{"start":64.138,"end":89.612,"text":"那個主委你們有沒有跟行政院就是溝通一下有是什麼原因現在進度到底為何有碰到什麼困難嗎其實剛剛提到就是我們在其實我們送進去行政院很快就開會開會因為這會試設很多的單位他就提了很多很多的問題叫我們回去再來研商我們再把這個內容又修改提出來"},{"start":90.532,"end":107.752,"text":"又開了一次會大家就是其實我們都緊鑼密鼓的在進行這個討論有在緊鑼密鼓畢竟是新的東西有跟他們盯這個案子的審查有跟他們盯著就對了那你那個大概會在什麼時候你覺得行政院會合可"},{"start":108.966,"end":127.408,"text":"這個部分如果說就我個人的觀察因為同仁跟我回報就是說現在大家一些有比較重大的爭議的地方其實不多啦都是未來執行上大家細節因為這部法律重點會在未來執法怎麼去做一個比較詳細嚴密的制定當然制定的過程"},{"start":129.239,"end":139.427,"text":"為什麼我們現在要先求有為什麼比方說在這一段時間裡面我們金管有先推VSP法尊聲明有也確實有做登記那也26家業者來登記可是現在26家業者已經有18家18家已經被我們認為就把它除名掉不行它不合格這裡面有3家是嚴重的"},{"start":159.102,"end":169.498,"text":"洗錢詐騙你看像有一家像去年四月這個王牌數位的負責人光他一見就三億四千萬"},{"start":170.683,"end":195.732,"text":"那去年底還有這個必享科技這個詐騙33億之多啦33億之多總共這三件加起來加起來六七十億有六七十億這麼大的金額那所以你們就剔除了這18家所以我認為既然專法要加強內控"},{"start":197.293,"end":215.139,"text":"那加強內控就是說要查核開戶的目的查核開戶人的身份虛擬幣的流向的追蹤等等在這一個部分我們的專法裡面有沒有特別針對這個KYC的部分去做加強監管"},{"start":217.796,"end":235.866,"text":"那我剛才有報告我們的執法我們有特別針對一個內控內積的這個做一個專門執法我想在金融界人都知道我們金融機構的內控內積是一個非常非常重要而且非常非常綿密的一個管理的模式我想我們會這個這部分一定會像委員講我們會來強化"},{"start":237.407,"end":264.092,"text":"還有就剛才講說比如說我們針對那個疑似不法交易詐騙我們會另外一個執法來專門來做這個規範這個虛擬的我們當然該查 該管但是實質的存在我們銀行的款項你看像到現在為止我們國人存在國內銀行有超過60兆台幣那麼這些錢裡面我上回就提過了"},{"start":265.593,"end":272.378,"text":"我提過就是說針對中央銀行他有頒布一筆針對不動產的部分他認為不動產我們銀行的錢大眾的資金不應該幫建商"},{"start":281.545,"end":301.17,"text":"去炒作土地所以訂啦也就是說你貸款去建商要貸款可以要興建的這OK但是這個貸款過去的金額不能超過18個月都沒有動超過一年半沒有開工那表示說這建商根本買這個土地"},{"start":302.91,"end":326.929,"text":"是去炒地皮的不是這樣嗎那結果我那時候發現說這裡面金額最大的土地銀行最多土地銀行竟然不動產貸款裡面在前年底總共他貸了一兆四千八百零五億出去那到去年三月底"},{"start":328.961,"end":348.9,"text":"18個月沒有動工的從前年的1173億那當時你有要求他們改善那改善的結果他還剩下802億這麼多並沒有實質去要求推動就等於幫助當了草地皮的幫兇"},{"start":350.936,"end":376.647,"text":"等於建商要去炒房價現在房價這麼高漲土地銀行這麼專業的土地銀行竟然做了幫兇同樣的當時的台銀18個月沒有動工的有142億但是人家同樣的15個月以後到去年3月底到今年3月底人家只剩38億"},{"start":378.615,"end":397.304,"text":"等於台銀在你要求了以後他大幅度的去做了改善他要回了7成只剩3成還在繼續追蹤土地銀行剛好相反1173億他只去處理了3成還有高達7成800億啊"},{"start":405.911,"end":413.565,"text":"還在幫建商我搞不懂耶土英這些傢伙在幹什麼他還是土地專業的銀行耶"},{"start":415.794,"end":437.763,"text":"所以我搞不懂這兩家同樣百分之百關股同樣百分之百要受我們金管會不打緊還有財政部這麼嚴密的監管之下結果上有命令他下有對策還繼續在跟這些惡質的建商勾結"},{"start":439.301,"end":451.667,"text":"不可思議耶所以彭主委這一點你是不是要回去趕快交辦多久時間內要土地男給個交代我會回去跟財政部跟央行趕快來言商"},{"start":454.082,"end":481.308,"text":"再跟委員報告一下那因為你跟莊部長財政部莊部長你們也常會碰面嘛那九大公營行庫裡面這九大的董事長總經理都莊部長派的你可以請莊部長協助嘛查一查土地銀行到底在幹什麼這麼明目張膽我們立法委員在立法院公開質詢他啦"},{"start":484.144,"end":513.533,"text":"他文文不動這個是不是要積極辦理好不好那另外我們國內我們37家銀行手續費從過去2461億那增加到3156億他們的獲利增加這個是很好我們不嫉妒這些銀行他們做該做的事應有的收入這是應當但是這麼高的手續費的增加這代表了一件事情"},{"start":514.841,"end":543.804,"text":"就是說不但招攬的風險增加了嘛他去不當招攬很多買賣這種相關的金融商產品所謂的理財呀那讓存款戶去買了這些理財的產品那風險就增加所以我認為我們對這一個部分要加強稽查啦因為在我看到的齁比方說"},{"start":547.629,"end":548.853,"text":"這個這一部分的控管裡面"},{"start":551.038,"end":566.684,"text":"你們說爭議有減少了啦從前年的1390件佔國內銀行爭議案件的38%有降到16.3%這一點我是肯定你們金管會確實有做事有針對這個在監管但是這個減少會不會還有一種情況是他們的話術要變更高明啦更快變啦"},{"start":578.936,"end":604.779,"text":"理財專員憑他三寸不爛之舌把存款戶辛苦血汗錢就這樣又騙過去了騙到一些風險很高的金融產品上面所以這一個部分因為有實際的案例出現實際的案例光是和庫銀行過去我們都知道我們都認為和庫銀行是規規矩矩最老實的銀行之一"},{"start":605.78,"end":624.093,"text":"他本來乖乖齊齊老老實實的但是在金融圈這個大染缸裡面學壞了你們光是你們光是今年你看就抓到他兩屆才發了他八十萬才發的理由他這個幫客戶幫銀行辦理理財講座業務不實"},{"start":631.944,"end":656.994,"text":"還有什麼對保險公司照會涉及異常招標案件沒有建立異常招攬太陽管理機制你看這麼明顯有的案子還是竟然他們說有去辦招攬說明會但是招攬說明會原來是假的"},{"start":659.13,"end":681.864,"text":"只有留下檔案會議記錄根本完全沒有所以我們很多存款人那很多金融消費者在這個部分他們是無辜的嘛因為我們全民存款人365行不一定每個人對理財這個有專業所以都會信任銀行金融機構這些理財專員"},{"start":683.545,"end":693.335,"text":"結果如果這些理財專員自己不懂不答請純粹壞心眼堅守治道的結果就害慘了我們國內所有的"},{"start":695.407,"end":712.741,"text":"這個金融消費者我們可憐的存款人所以這一個部分我認為要加強監管好不好再老實如合作金庫者都會學壞所以這一點我們要謹記在心好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請葛禄君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時1分）謝謝主席。我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，去年你一上任，那時候你就確認了金管會會來訂定臺灣首部的虛擬資產業管理法，這非常好，而且你們確實也做了，也在今年6月27日就把這個案子送到行政院去審查，這個專法的內容包括消費者的保護，包括市場交易的行為規範，包括資產保管，包括業者的許可條件，這些都是專法裡面所訂定的，都非常好。可是從送進去到現在已將近4個月了，主委，你們有沒有跟行政院溝通一下，到底是什麼原因、現在進度到底為何、有碰到什麼困難嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們送進去後，行政院很快就開會了，但因為這事涉很多的單位，他就提了很多很多的問題叫我們回去再來研商，我們再把這個內容又修改提出來，又開了一次會，其實我們都緊鑼密鼓地在進行討論，畢竟是新的東西。"],["王委員世堅：有在緊鑼密鼓，跟他們盯這個案子的審查，有跟他們盯著就對了？你覺得大概什麼時候行政院會核可？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於這個部分，就我個人的觀察，因為同仁跟我回報，現在比較重大爭議的地方其實不多，都是在未來執行上的細節，因為這部法律重點會在未來子法要怎麼去做比較詳細、嚴密的制定。"],["王委員世堅：當然制定的過程，為什麼我們現在要先求有？比方說，在這一段時間裡面，金管會有先推VASP……"],["彭主任委員金隆：登記制。"],["王委員世堅：法遵聲明，也確實有做登記，有26家業者來登記，可是現在這26家業者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：剩8家，26家剩8家。"],["王委員世堅：已經有18家被除名掉，就是覺得不行、不合格的，這裡面有3家是嚴重的洗錢詐騙耶！你看，像有一家是去年4月王牌數位的負責人，光他一件就3億4,000萬，去年底還有幣想科技，詐騙33億之多，這三件加起來總共就6、70億這麼大的金額，所以你們就剔除了這18家。所以我認為既然專法要加強內控，加強內控就是要查核開戶的目的、查核開戶人的身分、虛擬幣流向的追蹤等等，在這個部分，我們的專法裡面有沒有特別針對KYC的部分做加強監管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我剛才也報告過，我們也有特別針對內控、內稽的部分做一個專門的子法，我想在金融界的人都知道，金融機構的內控、內稽是非常非常重要且非常綿密的管理模式，針對這部分，我們一定會像委員講的，我們會來強化。還有剛才講的，比如說，疑似不法交易、詐騙的，我們會另訂一個子法專門來做規範。"],["王委員世堅：對，虛擬的我們當然該查、該管，但是實質存在我們銀行的款項，你看，到現在為止，國人存在國內銀行的存款超過60兆臺幣，這些錢裡面，我上回就提過了，中央銀行有頒布一筆針對不動產的部分，他認為不動產，我們銀行的錢、大眾的資金，不應該幫建商去炒作土地，所以訂了，也就是說，建商要貸款，可以！要興建OK，但是貸款過去的金額不能超過18個月都沒有動，超過一年半沒有開工，表示這建商買這個土地根本是去炒地皮的，不是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：結果我那時候發現，這裡面金額最大的是土地銀行，土地銀行的不動產貸款裡面，在前年底總共貸了1兆4,805億出去，其中18個月沒有動工的，前年是1,173億，當時你有要求他們改善，改善的結果，到去年3月底，他還剩下802億這麼多，並沒有實質地去要求推動，等於當了炒地皮的幫兇，等於建商要去炒房價，現在房價這麼高漲，這麼專業的土地銀行竟然做了幫兇。同樣地，當時臺銀18個月沒有動工的有142億，但是同樣15個月以後，到今年3月底，臺銀只剩38億，等於臺銀在你要求了以後，他大幅度地去做了改善，要回了七成，只剩三成還在繼續追蹤。而土地銀行剛好相反，1,173億，他只去處理了三成，還有高達七成、800億啊！還在幫建商，我搞不懂耶！土銀這些傢伙在幹什麼？他還是土地專業的銀行，所以我搞不懂這兩家同樣百分之百官股，同樣百分之百要受金管會監管不打緊，還在財政部這麼嚴密的監管之下，結果上有命令，他下有對策，還繼續再跟這些惡質的建商勾結，不可思議耶！所以彭主委，這一點你是不是要趕快回去交辦，多久時間內要土地銀行給個交代？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會回去跟財政部、跟央行趕快來研商，然後再跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：因為你跟財政部莊部長也常會碰面，九大公營行庫裡面，這九大的董事長、總經理都是莊部長派的，你可以請莊部長協助，查一查土地銀行到底在幹什麼？這麼明目張膽，我們立法委員在立法院公開質詢他，他還紋風不動，這個是不是要積極辦理，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：另外，我們國內37家銀行手續費，從過去2,461億增加到3,156億，他們的獲利增加很好，我們不嫉妒這些銀行，他們做該做的事，應有的收入，這是應當。但是這麼高的手續費的增加，這代表了一件事情，就是不當招攬的風險增加了，他不當招攬、買賣很多這種相關的金融產品，即所謂的理財，讓存款戶買了這些理財的產品，風險就增加，所以我認為你們對這個部分要加強稽查。因為我看到比方這部分的控管，你們說爭議有減少了，從前年的1,390件、占國內銀行爭議案件38%，有降到16.3%，這一點我是肯定你們，金管會確實有做事，有針對這個在監管。但是這個減少會不會還有一種情況，是他們的話術變更高明了、更會騙？理財專員憑他的三寸不爛之舌，把存款戶辛苦血汗錢就這樣又騙過去了，騙到一些風險很高的金融產品上面，因為這個部分有實際的案例出現。過去我們都認為合庫銀行是規規矩矩、最老實的銀行之一，它本來規規矩矩、老老實實的，但是在金融圈這個大染缸裡面學壞了，光是今年你們就抓到它兩件，裁罰了80萬，裁罰的理由是陳報理財講座業務不實，還有對保險公司照會涉及異常招攬案件，沒有建立異常招攬態樣管理機制。你看這麼明顯，有的案子罰的還是他們竟然說有辦招攬說明會，但是那個招攬說明會原來是假的，只有留下檔案，根本完全沒有會議紀錄！很多存款人、很多金融消費者在這個部分是無辜的，因為全民、存款人三百六十行，不一定每個人都對理財有專業，所以都會信任銀行、金融機構的理財專員，如果這些理財專員自己不懂還不打緊，存著壞心眼、堅守自盜的結果，就害慘了國內所有的金融消費者、可憐的存款人。我認為這個部分要加強監管，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["王委員世堅：再老實如合作金庫都會學壞，這一點你們要謹記在心，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0063150d2f23ca31cff253141cf72ece13cec708ebf7c68655dc3fb96d4c95e3195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:57:47 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部長好我們先讓陸委會休息一下還好今天陸委會來的是省副主委是不然的話我可能就要先寫公私分明"},{"start":13.931,"end":29.87,"text":"好 呃 這個剛剛喔 這個沈博洋 沈蔚園有特別提到APEC那今天其實我們主要的是針對APEC之外也多加了一個當然就是中國特別牆壁管轄這把手伸到這個台灣的政治人物或名人的部分喔 但是"},{"start":30.891,"end":53.728,"text":"我想先請教部長的是我們知道在川習會目前正在登場當中不過在川習會之前川普先講了Taiwan is Taiwan說實話還好這個中國的長臂管轄是沒有到這個美國去啦不然他首先第一個他想要制裁或者是發出這個通緝令的應該是川普了吧因為他說Taiwan is Taiwan你怎麼看川普特別在川習會之前講了這一句話有些人認為他是對於整個我們現在亞太的區域安全"},{"start":60.353,"end":77.349,"text":"做了一條新的界線那你怎麼來解讀我們對於所謂川習會會涉及台灣的議題當然要密切關心但不必過度擔心因為各界也都很關心因為是不是中國會利用川習會出招"},{"start":79.511,"end":103.032,"text":"而且說有很多的呼籲那我們跟美國政府也密切的溝通那萬一有什麼狀況我們也會一起大家有協調怎麼來因應那我想我們就用川普的話來自己呈現就是台灣是台灣你這個如果習近平要談什麼那是你的事情可是我覺得美國的政策是很明確而且一致"},{"start":104.012,"end":114.556,"text":"這也不太跟我們說明所以我們是對台美關係有信心那最重要的是其實美中跟美台關係可以是分開的那中國過去長期都打台灣牌來威脅利誘但是我想"},{"start":124.215,"end":144.432,"text":"我們去想一種情境如果今天習近平自己提了台灣議題結果川普的回應不如他期待那他是不是很沒面子所以我想習近平也有他的判斷吧當然外界關心是因為每當這種高峰會的時候各界都會很關心不過我們對於台灣跟美國的關係我們是相當穩定的"},{"start":149.716,"end":174.197,"text":"那是可以共同來應處任何可能來自於中國方面他的這個一些可能的訴求或壓力好 我們知道在這個114年的時候包含追加預算回來之後我們的預算呢基本上在編列的部分明年會比今年要來得多那麼當然主要的還是因為我們的國際宣傳費用"},{"start":175.458,"end":195.334,"text":"在這個部分在這個年度也就是2025年我們被刪除了但是2026年當然我們現在還是希望這個國際宣傳非常的重要因為真的就像川普講的台灣是台灣台灣要被看見喔但是我想要延伸閱讀一下因為剛剛我接在這個鋪馬委員的後面我也想問的就是APEC2026會在中國舉辦"},{"start":198.456,"end":200.797,"text":"就像現在中國的長臂管轄會不斷的無限延伸他今天把台灣視為他的一部分他可以怎麼樣比如說明年我們的所謂領袖代表他可不可以先發制人的把他列為所謂的懲戒名單"},{"start":215.524,"end":244.644,"text":"又或者是其他可能出席的官員代表也列為懲戒名單這個不是沒有喔包括我想剛剛有提到的我們的昭偉王定宇主席然後我們的沈伯洋委員甚至於過去像游錫堃院長蘇貞昌院長顧立雄當時是國安會現在是我們國防部長也就是說他可以無限延伸那麼在這個部分接下來我們再出席國際會議的時候雖然我們講到的這個部分就是"},{"start":245.764,"end":273.133,"text":"我們不認同這個部分但是他會不會用這個方式讓台灣就此被消失或者是我們在出席的部分受到一些影響那麼請部長回答之外也請這個陸委會省副主委我先跟委員報告就是我們也是有這個當中國在去年啊MIDU APEC大會上申請要主辦明年的APEC的年會的時候我們就有要求"},{"start":274.574,"end":288.189,"text":"中國必須公開承諾就是要確保我們所有出席人員的安全而且平等參與的權利所以當時他們的資深官員的代表盧梅亞最後還發函給所有的會員"},{"start":289.631,"end":316.434,"text":"那這個事後包括當然美國啦有好的國家大家一起的支持認為我們在去年建立了一個很好的基礎因為已經有將近十幾年來中國每當APEC都企圖矮化台灣甚至兩岸之間的交涉都透過可能兩會而不是透過APEC我們的這種外交單位在進行那好今年在韓國進行的時候我們也非常密切注意是不是被矮化比如說在我們領袖代表的接機的時候一度"},{"start":317.174,"end":319.536,"text":"有傳出不是由部長這個層級來接我們經過溝通韓國也最後確認是由他們的資深官員會議的主席親自到機場接機我們林信義領袖的代表"},{"start":338.012,"end":351.144,"text":"所以我是覺得我們密切的注意那也希望今年在韓國這個慶周的經驗是奠定在APEC正常的一個規範之下那明年到了中國他會不會給我們什麼樣的矮化或什麼出什麼小動作我們都必須做好因應的準備"},{"start":358.45,"end":373.762,"text":"好 那我有請神父主委其實齁 我們跟中國的部分很多的國際會議尤其是以亞洲為主題的時候在中國舉行的機會非常多包括像什麼杭州的亞運啊等等好 現在中國出招了不知道陸委會有沒有思考到這一個部分那就是"},{"start":374.182,"end":389.628,"text":"他透過懲戒名單或者是透過他們想要立案追查誰之後這個過去我們談的是長臂管轄比如說在中國境外包括其他非中國的地區但是明年的APEC在中國舉行接下來"},{"start":390.188,"end":397.932,"text":"中國也會舉行許多的國際會議或者是活動那麼這一招他們會不會就此變成是讓台灣出席國際活動或者是國際研討會等等的方式讓他沒有機會就是台灣沒有機會被曝光或者是被亮相甚至於在那一年就缺席這個部分陸委會有沒有思考到那麼有沒有想到如何來做因應"},{"start":415.282,"end":438.893,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的提醒那我想剛剛已經有特別提到了其實中國大陸來講的話他還是會希望能夠正常的來跟台灣做一些交流當然也有更多他們想要不正常的一些方式來統戰台灣那我們也會不斷的去提醒他們如果用這樣子的這種無理的不文明的方式來打壓我們來參與一些這個國際活動的話那麼兩岸的這個交流也一定會受到不健康的這樣的氣氛所影響而沒辦法進行所以對於陸委會來講我們是料敵從嚴"},{"start":442.935,"end":460.474,"text":"所以剛剛部長也特別提到了明年可能在中國大陸要辦APEC更甚至於有各式各樣的一些體育賽會都會在中國大陸辦那我們會不斷的來進行風險的提醒然後另外也會讓中國知道說他們在進行這樣子的一些破壞之後對於這一些在中國舉辦的活動來講都不會是一個好的包裝"},{"start":461.135,"end":471.38,"text":"所以會擔心嗎那麼會認為說像比如說我先舉例115年在外交的部分那麼當然這個部分就是南海會議啊東協及周邊組織會議太平洋島國國際論壇那個農牧類的國際組織相關會議等等然後紡洗錢類的這個討論會然後亞洲開發銀行跟中美洲國際的年會也都會在言下之意就是"},{"start":484.907,"end":507.461,"text":"琳瑯滿目不生美鼠各種的國際上面的交流會議那麼他現在只要鎖定會出席的人因為這一次我們看到沈伯陽委員選擇在APEC之前做這樣的發布那麼你們認為這個部分是不是就是有計劃性的鎖定未來在我們可能出席的會議當中製造所謂的心理戰"},{"start":508.402,"end":537.702,"text":"那麼甚至於是輿論戰那麼剛剛主席王定宇委員也特別提到的就是說我們必須要有一個明確的宣示雖然他沒有這種牆壁管轄的權利但是回到中國境內的時候包括這一次沈伯陽委員他的這個發布是透過重慶的公安部門那麼言下之意是落地之後就會有危險這個部分我不會第一時間要求陸委會給答案但是相關的我們國家的這種包括國安局或者是相關的"},{"start":539.703,"end":565.173,"text":"會議當中是不是要把這個東西成為未來在明年115年度當中我們出席國際會議或者是國際交流在中國的時候一個重點的項目好 非常謝謝委員的提醒那首先就是剛剛您有提到說這次沈委員他被檢舉的是在重慶這其實就是一個矮話因為他用地方的這個公安的系統來去去懲治我們的這個國會議員這個某種程度來講已經是有精心的包裝了"},{"start":565.973,"end":580.621,"text":"那再來第二個的話就是我們也會去建議或者說我們也會去設法突破這樣的情況舉個例子來講比如說非常有意義的一些國際交流我們可以主動來舉辦像這兩天我們看到說這個關於海底電纜的一些議題然後又組成了這個福爾摩沙的這個論壇在台灣來做舉辦"},{"start":582.882,"end":598.891,"text":"所以我們不會去跟這個中國用這樣子的這種方式去跟他做零和的這個拼鬥跟這個競爭但是我們也會用更加的其他的這樣子的這個方法來去尋求我們在國際上面能夠盡量的被國際社會給看見好所以呢最後剛好剩下十幾"},{"start":599.491,"end":618.313,"text":"十幾秒的時間我想要提醒的就是其實對於中國現在當然就是昨天我也特別詢問了國安局長蔡明彥蔡局長他特別提到這是法律戰認知戰跟心理戰的一個部分那麼對於這個部分因為接下來還有一些其他出席的他可能就不是政治人物不是民意代表"},{"start":618.874,"end":631.666,"text":"他可能就是一般出席會議的相關的人士那麼在這裡如何確保他們的安全之外如何在輿論戰跟心理戰之內我們也要做一個回防的動作這個部分我想也是接下來陸委會必須要有所準備的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時57分）謝謝主席，主席先有請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員楚茵：我們先讓陸委會休息一下，還好今天陸委會來的是沈副主委，不然的話，我可能就要先寫公私分明。剛剛沈伯洋委員有特別提到APEC，今天其實我們主要的是針對APEC之外，也多加了一個，當然就是中國特別長臂管轄，就是把手伸到台灣的政治人物或名人。我想先請教部長的是，我們知道川習會目前正在登場當中，不過在川習會之前，川普先講了Taiwan is Taiwan，說實話，還好中國的長臂管轄沒有到美國，不然他首先第一個想要制裁或者發出通緝令的應該是川普了吧！因為他說Taiwan is Taiwan，你怎麼看川普特別在川習會之前講了這一句話？有些人認為他是對於整個現在亞太的區域安全做了一條新的界線，您怎麼解讀？"],["林部長佳龍：我們對於所謂川習會會涉及台灣的議題，當然要密切關心，但不必過度擔心，因為各界也都很關心是不是中國會利用川習會出招，也說有很多的呼籲，我們跟美國政府也密切溝通，萬一有什麼狀況，我們也會一起與大家協調，看怎麼來因應。我想我們就用川普的話來自己呈現，就是Taiwan is Taiwan，如果習近平要談什麼，那是他的事情，可是我覺得美國的政策是很明確而且一致，這也不斷在跟我們說明，所以我們對台美關係有信心。最重要的是，其實美中跟美台關係可以是分開的，中國過去長期都打台灣牌來威脅利誘，我們去想一種情境，如果今天習近平自己提了台灣議題，結果川普的回應不如他期待，那他是不是很沒面子？"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我想習近平也有他的判斷吧！"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["林部長佳龍：當然外界關心是因為每當這種高峰會的時候，各界都會很關心。不過我們對於台灣跟美國的關係是相當穩定的，是可以共同應處任何可能來自於中國方面的一些訴求或壓力。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我們知道在114年的時候，包含追加預算回來之後，我們的預算基本上在編列的部分，明年會比今年要來得多，當然主要還是因為國際宣傳費用在這個年度（2025年）被刪除了，但是2026年我們現在還是希望……因為國際宣傳非常重要，也真的就像川普所講的「Taiwan is Taiwan」，台灣要被看見！","但是我想要延伸閱讀一下，因為我接在Puma委員的後面，我也想問的就是，APEC 2026會在中國舉辦，就像現在中國的長臂管轄會不斷地無限延伸，他今天把台灣視為他的一部分，他可以怎麼樣？比如明年針對我們的領袖代表，他可不可以先發制人將其列為所謂的懲戒名單？又或者是其他可能出席的官員代表也被列為懲戒名單，這個不是沒有！包括剛剛提到的我們的召委──王定宇主席、沈伯洋委員，甚至於過去游錫堃院長、蘇貞昌院長、當時是國安會秘書長的顧立雄，現在是我們的國防部長，也就是說他們可以無限延伸，那麼接下來我們在出席國際會議的時候，雖然我們不認同這個部分，但是他會不會用這個方式讓台灣就此被消失？或者是我們在出席的時候受到一些影響？請部長回答之外，也請陸委會沈副主委。"],["林部長佳龍：我先跟委員報告，去年中國在秘魯APEC大會上申請要主辦明年APEC年會的時候，我們就有要求中國必須公開承諾，確保我們所有出席人員安全而且平等參與的權利。所以當時他們的資深官員代表魯梅最後還發函給所有會員，事後包括美國等友好國家大家一起支持，認為我們在去年建立了一個很好的基礎，因為十幾年來中國每當在APEC的時候都企圖矮化台灣，甚至兩岸之間的交涉都透過兩會，而不是透過APEC這種外交單位在進行。今年在韓國進行的時候，我們也非常密切注意是不是被矮化，比如在我們的領袖代表接機的時候，一度有傳出不是由部長層級來接。我們經過溝通，韓國最後確認是由他們的資深官員會議主席親自到機場接機我方領袖代表林信義。我是覺得我們密切注意，今年在韓國慶州的經驗是奠定在APEC正常的規範之下，至於明年到了中國，他會不會給我們什麼樣的矮化或出什麼小動作，我們都必須做好因應準備。"],["林委員楚茵：有請沈副主委。其實我們跟中國有很多國際會議，尤其是以亞洲為主題的時候，在中國舉行的機會非常多，包括杭州亞運等等，現在中國出招了，不知道陸委會有沒有思考到這個部分？那就是他透過懲戒名單，或者是透過他們想要立案追查誰之後……過去我們談的是長臂管轄，比如在中國境外，包括其他非中國的地區，但是明年的APEC在中國舉行，接下來中國也會舉行許多國際會議或者是活動，這一招他們會不會就此變成讓台灣出席國際活動或者是國際研討會等等的方式，讓台灣沒有機會被曝光或者是被亮相，甚至於在那一年就缺席？針對這個部分陸委會有沒有思考到？有沒有想到如何因應？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員的提醒。我想剛剛已經有特別提到，其實中國大陸來講，還是會希望能夠正常跟台灣做一些交流，當然還有更多他們想要不正常的方式來統戰台灣，我們也會不斷地去提醒他們，如果用這樣子無理、不文明的方式打壓我們參與一些國際活動的話，那麼兩岸交流也一定會受到不健康的氣氛影響而沒辦法進行。所以對於陸委會來講，我們是料敵從嚴，剛剛部長也特別提到明年可能要在中國大陸辦APEC，甚至還有各式各樣的體育賽會都會在中國大陸舉辦。我們會不斷進行風險提醒，另外也會讓中國知道，他們在進行一些這樣子的破壞之後，對於這些在中國舉辦的活動都不會是好的包裝。"],["林委員楚茵：所以會擔心嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：會。"],["林委員楚茵：比如我先舉例，115年在外交的部分有南海會議、東協及周邊組織會議、太平洋島國論壇會議、農牧類國際組織相關會議等等，還有防洗錢類的討論會、亞洲開發銀行及中美洲銀行年會也都有，言下之意就是有琳瑯滿目、不勝枚舉各種國際上的交流會議，他們現在只要鎖定會出席的人。這次我們看到選擇在APEC會議之前，針對沈伯洋委員作這樣的發布，你們認為這部分是不是就是有計畫性鎖定，未來在我們可能出席的會議當中製造所謂的心理戰，甚至於是輿論戰？","剛剛主席王定宇委員也特別提到，我們必須要有一個明確的宣示，雖然他們有長臂管轄的權利，但是回到中國境內的時候，包括這一次沈伯洋委員的這個發布是透過重慶公安部門，言下之意是落地之後就會有危險！針對這個部分，我不會第一時間要求陸委會給答案，但是我們國家包括國安局或者是相關會議，是不是要把這個東西成為未來在明（115）年我們在中國出席國際會議或者是國際交流的時候一個重點項目？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員的提醒。首先就是剛剛您有提到這次沈委員被檢舉的是在重慶，其實這就是一個矮化，因為他用地方的公安系統懲治我們的國會議員，某種程度來講這已經是精心的包裝了。再來第二個，我們也會建議，或者我們也會設法突破這樣的情況。舉個例子來講，比如說非常有意義的一些國際交流，我們可以主動舉辦，像這兩天我們看到關於海底電纜的一些議題，然後有組成福爾摩沙論壇在台灣舉辦。我們不會跟中國用這樣子的方式跟他做零和拚鬥和競爭，但是我們會用其他更佳的方法，尋求我們在國際上面能夠儘量地被國際社會看見。"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後剛好剩下十幾秒的時間，我想要提醒的是，昨天我特別詢問國安局蔡明彥蔡局長，他特別提到這是法律戰、認知戰跟心理戰的一個部分。因為接下來還有一些出席的可能不是政治人物、不是民意代表，可能就只是一般出席會議的相關人士，除了確保他們的安全之外，如何在輿論戰跟心理戰之內我們也要做回防的動作，這個部分我想也是接下來陸委會必須要有所準備的。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好，沒有問題，我們也會提醒我們另一位副主委出國要小心。"],["林委員楚茵：對，公私分明。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，副主委請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00eec60286b96b278555b9b7d9df2795fecec708ebf7c68655aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:52:47 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11:06:11","影片長度":"00:13:24","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T10:52:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T11:06:11+08:00","duration":804,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.894718750000001,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.50159375000001,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.68096875,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.06471875,"end":167.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.34659375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.52096875,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.07971875,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.51846875,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.85096875000002,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.95534375000003,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.81596875000002,"end":217.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.14721875,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.12159375000002,"end":231.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.95971875,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.22534375,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.34721875000002,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.52784375000002,"end":253.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.48534375000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.16846875000002,"end":284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.13409375000003,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.28034375000004,"end":300.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.84471875,"end":329.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.76846875,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.43721875,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.70721875000004,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.71534375000005,"end":354.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.50284375,"end":359.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":365.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.60659375,"end":369.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.54284375000003,"end":373.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.38596875,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.42784375,"end":385.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.26596875,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.86909375000005,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.51284375,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.16534375000003,"end":413.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.21096875,"end":417.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.78846875000005,"end":418.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.00346875,"end":420.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.39971875000003,"end":423.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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請施部長"},{"start":7.174,"end":30.511,"text":"林委員好部長 我再接續剛才廖委員的這個質詢就省紀部在今年的非洲豬瘟事件發生以前7月29號就發布了這個總決算的審核報告那這裡面指出這個食藥署大家都知道邊境抱怨的批次從76萬餘批比這個當初109年69萬餘批成長了將近一成"},{"start":36.295,"end":42.76,"text":"在這種狀況裡面他們覺得說中國大陸的貨品除了經濟部公告准許輸入和專案核准以外不得輸入的狀況但是坊間非常多的中國大陸產製的麻辣花生螺絲粉等非屬核准輸入產品在國內流通販售的情勢衍生了食安的疑慮這個是審計部的調查報告裡面寫的審核報告裡面寫的"},{"start":65.876,"end":89.014,"text":"然後呢你們他再查了一下就說你們這個去年112年還有113年兩年之間他們看了一下地方政府的稽查業者兩萬餘次查獲的違規只有71案其中都是在夜市商行實體通路查獲網路平台只有一案在這種狀況裡面審計部認為說這個"},{"start":95.139,"end":113.011,"text":"對國內的衛生安全有很大的疑慮然後講到你們自己剛剛講的108年你們自己開放了自己去開放了這個1000美金以下重量6公斤以下這個免申請這個查驗這個是你們自己開放的在這種狀況裡面他就剛才廖委員質詢也有講到所以這個審計部"},{"start":120.723,"end":124.344,"text":"這一年過去113年有70幾萬個人申請我免查驗啦然後最離譜的是第一名的人那一個人一年申請了3002次然後他每天一年365天一共有294天294天天天都申報這個進口免查驗的這一些化整為零的輸入"},{"start":149.668,"end":162.834,"text":"然後大家當初都是知道說這同意自用的話免查驗可是天天輸入一年輸入294天一共輸入了3002批次化整為零"},{"start":163.865,"end":189.745,"text":"違規的拿去哪裡使用了還自用了欸而你們自己都知道109年你就發現這有問題了可是你們就是沒有辦法改而且不願意改你就說大家都反對就不改了那今年呢我們就看到深五環的第一環邊境主角就在這裡大家認為說這裡破口跟著貨櫃進來違規拿去平台賣有沒有可能"},{"start":190.766,"end":213.433,"text":"當然部長你講的更好笑 這些都免查驗了 你說還在查驗他哪裡查驗跟委員說明 這確實是有一些國人自用的需求沒有啦 我問你是這些都用免查驗的你剛才還可以回答委員說他們還是有查驗不是查驗啦 應該是這樣子講他在邊境 他還是郵包還是要驗 還是會被抽驗啦"},{"start":214.013,"end":218.537,"text":"抽驗嘛 所以偶爾抽一下但是我現在再問你喔 嚴肅的問你喔申請免查驗的1000美金以下的還有這個6公斤以下的會抽驗嗎 海關有抽驗嗎有抽驗嗎 你剛才講 你剛才回答委員說還是有查驗現在我問你 你說會抽驗 到底有沒有真的有抽驗"},{"start":239.997,"end":246.162,"text":"沒有嘛沒有嘛完全沒有把關長驅直入可是剛才第一名那個其實我們在9月10號我現在告訴你就是說就是沒有我們要講這個個案啦我在講因為你們開放的108年這個門就是你開的"},{"start":261.753,"end":274.557,"text":"而開了以後完全連抽菸都沒有長驅直入而且大家化整為零而且以同意自用為名就違規的拿去販賣其實商業販售你開放了但你要有管理的配套"},{"start":279.278,"end":298.252,"text":"你開放了 那你的管理配套在哪裡 你的後市場茶宴有嗎難怪大家都問我 大家都問立委 夜市大家都看得到更不要講網路平台 網路平台所以更不要講阻絕於邊境 這都是你們開放的 沒錯 你們開放的"},{"start":300.934,"end":315.28,"text":"在這種狀況 審計部的報告我們可以得知到幾個重點第一個 你們事實上開放以後流入了台灣的市面然後事實上地方政府跟你們去做的稽查強度則為不足道實體通路兩年查獲71件網路查獲1件第二個 我們都看到個人名義自用 屬於西北人的嘛"},{"start":329.887,"end":359.141,"text":"第三你們的稽查事實上是沒有在講網路販售的這個平台了網路販售除非從中國郵寄但也有從台灣出貨的簡體字的一大堆那網路販售他怎麼到台灣的賣家然後可以直接賣出去他販賣地點可能從雲林寄出來的可能從高雄寄出來的他就是有貨品直接在這個賣家手上"},{"start":360.202,"end":384.421,"text":"然後呢 你們去查了一件 兩年只查到一件然後你們回答這個審計部然後就說我們會加強查 稽查然後呢 沒了 然後就沒了請問這個部長 署長 我4月就質詢了部長那時候你還沒有上任當部長但在今年的4月我就質詢過署長了"},{"start":386.345,"end":413.005,"text":"我們在講說我現在回到網路平台這件事違法輸入的業者和產品的品項是不是在實體通路和網路平台都消失了然後還是說這些業者避避風頭立委質詢了然後政府管了一下子了先下架但事過境天一個月以後又開始賣了 賣得下下叫 還在賣"},{"start":414.244,"end":432.978,"text":"你看昨天的昨天的截圖還在賣還在賣隨便隨便都有請問一下這些有沒有申請輸入查驗他怎麼進來的簡體制全部都簡體制有沒有輸入許可有沒有申請查驗"},{"start":437.218,"end":463.719,"text":"連審計單位都要跟你講這有食安的疑慮耶7月29到現在發現有國安的疑慮因為豬瘟沒有豬瘟也有食安的疑慮耶請問一下審計部要求食藥署研議強化網路販售食品的稽查作為在哪裡署長你可以告訴我保證網路平台上現在去上網去看的都有申請輸入查驗的嗎"},{"start":465.687,"end":491.846,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下 因為委員4月份提醒之後我們非常認真的去做因為我們目前沒有電子商務法所以我們其實已經提出了修法 市民安全 衛生 管理法法條現在躺在哪裡第三條 對啦 法條現在躺在哪裡你說要修法從4月講到現在了對 我們持續在有些半年了對 我們會持續把這個速度再加快現在法在哪裡 到行政院了沒"},{"start":492.666,"end":518.513,"text":"目前還沒有 出衛福部了沒沒有 半年了 我們繼續加緊速度第一個部分剛才如委員所說的如何對於平台業者 販賣業者課予所謂的行政義務的 電商平台的義務的這是第一個部分 第二個部分是他要強制你不要跟我講修法的內容 我知道啦但是我現在告訴你 在修法以前人家就是這樣進來的今天國安破口 防疫的破口難道這裡不可能嗎"},{"start":521.014,"end":543.138,"text":"現在網路上如果講食安平台上販賣的都有申請查驗嗎你不知道 你不知道 事實上是沒有啦的確是沒有現在我再講中央主管機關是屬於安全的這個主責機關你開放了 我再講你108年的開放開放了免申請查驗卻沒有濫用這個制度的把關機制"},{"start":544.858,"end":572.472,"text":"你說你要限縮再限縮美金大概要多少要再限縮公斤重量要再限縮這樣就好了嗎你們的配套會是什麼你們的配套會是什麼你們給人家開了一個門然後東西都進來你沒有管理的辦法也沒有人在管理這像話嗎不然你一開門說有需要配套也要有啊配套是什麼"},{"start":573.581,"end":592.854,"text":"你現在降低提高了門檻了那還是要有配套啊我們其實特別是針對用抱怨勾擊的方式對異常的我們會積極的去查核這邊謝謝委員的提醒電商平台修法義務草案我現在在講說你們個人自用免查驗的"},{"start":594.778,"end":623.917,"text":"其實我還不好意思講除了從海關進來的更多的是大家喔 跑單幫的啦跑單幫小三通我每天去廈門再進來廈門進來一天可以跑五次跑十次化整為零啦個人攜帶的啦對不對怎麼會大家都看得到夜市全部滿街都是中國的食品啦肉製品啦"},{"start":625.578,"end":654.299,"text":"在台灣網路平台販賣的簡體製的很多啦所以我們在講食安五環在這裡食藥署你們開了門然後兩手一攤毫無作為這樣的食安防線誰能夠放心呢所以你說要有配套要查緝你也對我們講說要查緝你也對審計部說要查緝不要讓查緝兩個字成為笑話也不要讓食安防線成為笑話"},{"start":656.533,"end":685.048,"text":"保定你前幾天接受媒體採訪部長9月1號你接任以來你說食安的壓力最大你一再的告誡同仁食安事件沒有妥協的空間從今天各項的討論和資料可以看到你們是要屬管理食安進步的空間還很大我們認為你必須要展開結構性的改革不要再以事件處理的方式來面對"},{"start":686.587,"end":690.891,"text":"你不要每次都用事件處理去取代制度上的修正"},{"start":692.034,"end":718.157,"text":"這是連你們組織內包括法律法規的管制面已經是嚴重的制度的缺口了而署長承諾我們要修法半年前半年後還躺在你們衛福部還躺在食藥署連出你們衛福部都沒有如果這是最重要的事情很緊急的事情為什麼拖半年還沒到行政院還沒到立法院來"},{"start":719.562,"end":733.181,"text":"所以這種牛布化是管理的方式嗎大家都這樣清清菜菜給省紀部運營的然後到這裡答詢立委 蓄意為夷署長站在台上撐過10分鐘就交差了"},{"start":734.518,"end":756.958,"text":"這樣能夠讓人民感受到政府守護食安的決心和行動力嗎所以台灣的食品安全就是這樣一次又一次信心垮掉了所以我們要重新的建立起這個信心你必須走向制度化專業化而不是一次又一次的只是危機處理應變而不是只是事件處理應變"},{"start":758.717,"end":777.737,"text":"保證是不是什麼時候什麼時候可以給我們制度上的改變保證這個我們一個月提出檢討他已經檢討半年了啦一個月內我們會把它再重新再檢討它的漏洞那該提出的修法年底前我們都會提出來"},{"start":778.197,"end":805.229,"text":"年底前喔 年底剩下多久 兩個月喔 好 OK食藥署進步的空間還很大 署長 謝謝謝謝委員 我們第一個就把我們的相關的訊息給各位委員其實能夠有看到 那修法的內涵 內容其實都請各位委員多多救教 謝謝好了 我們要休息了啦 抱歉 休息時間 抱歉我還是要提醒部長和署長 剛剛真的是時間不夠"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：來，請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我再接續剛才廖委員的質詢，審計部在今年非洲豬瘟事件發生以前，7月29號就發布了總決算的審核報告，這裡面指出食藥署，大家都知道，邊境報驗的批次從七十六萬餘批，比當初109年的六十九萬餘批成長了將近一成，在這種狀況下，他們覺得中國大陸的貨品，除了經濟部公告准許輸入和專案核准的以外，不得輸入。但坊間有非常多中國大陸產製的麻辣花生、螺螄粉等非屬核准輸入的產品在國內流通販售的情事，衍生食安的疑慮，這是審計部的審核報告裡面寫的。","然後審計部再查了一下，112年和113年兩年之間，地方政府稽查業者兩萬餘次，查獲的違規只有71案，其中都是在夜市商行實體通路查獲，網路平臺只有1案，在這種狀況下，審計部認為國內的食品衛生安全有很大的疑慮。審核報告中也講到你們自己剛剛講的，108年你們自己去開放了1,000美金以下、重量6公斤以下免申請查驗，這是你們自己開放的。","在這種狀況下，剛才廖委員質詢也有講到，審計部發現113年有七十幾萬個人申請免查驗，然後最離譜的是第一名的人，那一個人一年申請了3,002次，一年365天他一共有294天，294天天天都申報進口免查驗，化整為零的輸入。大家當初都只知道同意自用的話免查驗，可是天天輸入，一年輸入294天，一共輸入了3,002批次，化整為零，違規的拿去哪裡使用了？還自用咧！","你們自己都知道，109年你就發現這個有問題，可是你們就是沒有辦法改，而且也不願意改，你說大家都反對就不改了。今天我們就看到，食安五環的第一環邊境阻絕就在這裡，大家都認為這裡破口，跟著貨櫃進來，違規拿去平臺賣，有沒有可能？剛才部長你講的更好笑，這些都免查驗的，你說還在查驗，它哪裡查驗？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，這個確實是有一些國人自用的需求，我們是給他有一定的……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，問題是這些都用免查驗的，你剛才還可以回答委員說，他們還是有查驗……"],["石部長崇良：沒有、沒有，不是查驗啦，應該是這樣子講，在邊境郵包還是要驗，還是會被抽驗啦。"],["林委員淑芬：抽驗嘛！所以那是偶爾抽一下……"],["石部長崇良：對，郵包還是會抽驗。"],["林委員淑芬：但是，我現在再嚴肅的問你喔，申請免查驗的1,000美金以下還有6公斤以下的會抽驗嗎？","海關，有抽驗嗎？"],["石部長崇良：第一個就是跟委員說明……"],["林委員淑芬：有抽驗嗎？你剛才回答委員說還是有查驗，現在我問你，你說會抽驗，到底有沒有真的有抽驗？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有嘛，沒有嘛！完全沒有把關，長驅直入……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，食品衛生安全的部分沒有抽驗。可是剛才第一名那個，其實我們在9月10號跟9月18號都予以裁罰了……"],["林委員淑芬：不要再講第一名，我現在告訴你就是沒有。","我沒有要講這個個案啦！我是在講因為你們開放的，108年這個門就是你開的，而開了以後完全連抽驗都沒有，長驅直入，而且大家化整為零，以同意自用為名就違規的拿去販賣，其實是商業販售。你開放了，但要有管理的配套，你開放了，但你的管理配套在哪裡？你的後市場查驗有嗎？難怪大家都問我，大家都問立委，欸，夜市大家都看得到，更不要講網路平臺，所以更不要講阻絕於邊境，這都是你們開放的。部長，你們開放的。","這種狀況從審計部的報告我們可以得知幾個重點：第一個，你們開放以後事實上流入了臺灣的市面，然後事實上地方政府跟你們去做的稽查強度微不足道，實體通路兩年查獲71件，網路查獲1件。第二個，我們都看到，個人名義自用事實是騙人的嘛。第三，你們的稽查事實上是沒有。","再講網路販售的平臺好了，網路販售除非從中國郵寄，但是也有從臺灣出貨簡體字的一大堆，網路販售怎麼到臺灣的賣家，然後可以直接賣出去？販賣地點可能從雲林寄出來的、可能從高雄寄出來的，那就是有貨品直接在這個賣家手上。然後你們去查了1件，兩年只查到1件，你們就回答審計部說會加強稽查，然後呢？沒了！然後就沒了。","請問部長、署長，我4月就質詢了，部長，那時候你還沒有上任當部長，但在今年的4月我就質詢過署長了。","我現在回到網路平臺這件事，違法輸入的業者和產品的品項是不是在實體通路和網路平臺都消失了？還是說這些業者避避風頭，立委質詢了，然後政府管了一下子，先下架，但事過境遷，一個月以後又開始賣了，賣得嚇嚇叫，還在賣！你看昨天的截圖，還在賣！還在賣！隨便都有。請問一下，這些有沒有申請輸入查驗？它怎麼進來的？全部都簡體字耶！有沒有輸入許可？有沒有申請查驗？連審計單位都跟你講這有食安的疑慮，7月29日到現在發現有國安的疑慮，因為豬瘟，即便沒有豬瘟，也有食安的疑慮。請問一下，審計部要求食藥署研議強化網路販售食品的稽查作為在哪裡？署長，你可以告訴我保證網路平臺上，現在上網去看的都有申請輸入、查驗了嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告一下，委員4月份提醒之後，我們非常認真去做，因為目前沒有電子商務法，所以我們其實已經提出修法，為食品安全衛生管理法……"],["林委員淑芬：修法，法條現在躺在哪裡？"],["姜署長至剛：第三條，其實這部分……"],["林委員淑芬：對，法條現在躺在哪裡？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實在研議……"],["林委員淑芬：你說要修法，從4月講到現在了。"],["姜署長至剛：我們持續在有些……"],["林委員淑芬：半年了。"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們會持續把速度再加快，包含最重要的是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在法在哪裡？到行政院了沒？"],["姜署長至剛：目前還沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：出衛福部了沒？"],["姜署長至剛：目前還沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，半年了，半年了。"],["姜署長至剛：我們繼續加快速度。第一個部分，如剛才委員所說的，就是如何對於平臺業者、販賣業者課予行政義務、電商平臺的義務，這是第一個部分。第二個部分是強制它要下架……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要跟我講修法的內容，我知道，但是我現在告訴你，在修法以前人家就是這樣進來的，今天國安破口、防疫的破口，難道這裡不無可能嗎？如果講食安，現在網路平臺上販賣的都有申請查驗嗎？你不知道？事實上是沒有啦。"],["姜署長至剛：的確是沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：現在我這樣講，中央主管機關是食品安全的主責機關，你開放了……我在講你108年開放，開放了免申請查驗，對於濫用這個制度卻沒有把關機制。你說你要限縮、再限縮，美金多少要再限縮，重量要再限縮，這樣就好了嗎？你們的配套會是什麼？部長，你們的配套會是什麼？你們給人家開了一個門，然後東西都進來，你們卻沒有管理的辦法，也沒有人在管理，這像話嗎？沒事開了那個門，說有需要，好，配套也要有呀，配套是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在提高門檻了，還是要有配套。"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實特別是針對用報驗勾稽的方式，對異常的部分，我們會積極地去查核，謝謝委員的提醒。有關電商平臺的修法草案，我們持續在溝通當中。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在講你們個人自用免查驗的，其實我還不好意思講，除了從海關進來的，更多的是跑單幫的，跑單幫透過小三通每天去廈門再進來、出去再進來，一天可以跑5次、跑10次，化整為零，個人攜帶的，對不對？怎麼會大家都看得到，夜市滿街都是中國的食品、肉製品！在臺灣網路平臺販賣的、簡體字的很多。所以我們在講食安五環，食藥署開了個門，然後兩手一攤，毫無作為，這樣的食安防線，誰能夠放心呢？所以你說要有配套、要查緝，你也對我們講說要查緝，也對審計部說要查緝，不要讓「查緝」兩個字成為笑話，也不要讓食安防線成為笑話。","部長，你前幾天接受媒體採訪，9月1日你接任以來，你說食安的壓力最大，你一再地告誡同仁，食安事件沒有妥協的空間，但是從今天各項討論和資料可以看到，你們食藥署管理食安進步的空間還很大。我們認為你必須要展開結構性的改革，不要再以事件處理的方式來面對，你不要每次都用事件處理去取代制度上的修正，連你們組織內，包括法律、法規的管制面已經是嚴重的制度缺口了。半年前署長承諾我們要修法，半年後法案還躺在你們衛福部、還躺在食藥署，連出你們衛福部都沒有，如果這是最重要的事情、很緊急的事情，為什麼拖半年還沒到行政院、還沒到立法院來？所以這種牛步化是管理的方式嗎？每天都隨便回應審計部，然後到這裡回復立委的答詢虛與委蛇，署長站在臺上撐過10分鐘就交差了，這樣能夠讓人民感受到政府守護食安的決心和行動力嗎？臺灣的食品安全就是這樣一次又一次讓信心垮掉了，所以我們要重新建立起信心，必須走向制度化、專業化，而不是一次又一次地只是危機處理應變，不是只是事件處理應變，部長，不是嗎？部長什麼時候可以給我們制度上的改變？"],["石部長崇良：我們一個月提出檢討，把它檢討出來，然後……"],["林委員淑芬：他已經檢討半年了啦！"],["石部長崇良：一個月內我們會重新再檢討它的漏洞，該提出的修法，年底前我們都會提出來。"],["林委員淑芬：年底前，距離年底剩下多久？兩個月，好，OK。食藥署進步的空間還很大，署長。謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。我們第一個就把相關的訊息給各位委員即時能看到，修法的內涵、內容也請各位委員多多指教，謝謝。"],["主席：抱歉，我們要休息10分鐘了。我還是要提醒部長和署長，剛剛真的是時間不夠，林委員的資料跟我的資料都很清楚，那個是針對臺灣的，49元免運是針對臺灣的，實在沒時間講，不然剛剛那個處長他怎麼會……你怎麼不覺得你們主管講的那些壓力是普遍性的壓力，不是……好，謝謝。休息10分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：好，休息時間到，請各位官員回座，我們要繼續進行詢答。","接下來請黃秀芳委員、黃召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f007883d1500cd1bee28220506846d94b49cec708ebf7c68655e8601f8ea01c43fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:50:36 - 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我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚"},{"start":203.338,"end":229.291,"text":"我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會 不會 規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一 我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好 那個正當合法是 我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後"},{"start":230.471,"end":250.407,"text":"我沒有什麼意見 我只有說 規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣 進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個 我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的 盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說 因為這樣的國人 他才找得到對象他想要被管 就請他好好的來登記"},{"start":256.552,"end":280.828,"text":"對 沒有錯 那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯 我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他 這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意 所以標準 清楚 一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們"},{"start":285.631,"end":300.12,"text":"納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是 接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是 我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面"},{"start":300.54,"end":317.814,"text":"不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎"},{"start":319.804,"end":333.611,"text":"應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的"},{"start":334.432,"end":348.933,"text":"確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範"},{"start":349.734,"end":373.685,"text":"是 所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對 我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯"},{"start":374.545,"end":404.005,"text":"所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者"},{"start":404.765,"end":415.636,"text":"對 我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對 這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到"},{"start":424.045,"end":448.021,"text":"美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備"},{"start":448.621,"end":466.655,"text":"有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有 我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託"},{"start":468.796,"end":485.218,"text":"沒有 只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個"},{"start":486.98,"end":496.529,"text":"不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對 機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把"},{"start":511.443,"end":529.698,"text":"他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人"},{"start":531.9,"end":551.457,"text":"那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然"},{"start":551.937,"end":572.385,"text":"既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎"},{"start":574.727,"end":602.175,"text":"不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊"},{"start":603.528,"end":629.833,"text":"那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席（李委員坤城）：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產，接下來你們要送你們的專法過來，現在申請來做所謂虛擬資產服務商的相關登記，也經過你們公告，目前是原來的二十幾家，現在只有九家通過，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原來二十幾家剩八家，其中有一家是新申請的。"],["黃委員珊珊：OK，所以是八家，二十五家只剩八家，原因是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原因很多，我想在過去這段時間來看，有些是涉犯一些不法行為，有些是因為我們的標準提高，它無法符合，有些是不願意申請……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這一家新的並不是原來的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後來申請，請問它是境外的還是國內的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都是境內。"],["黃委員珊珊：都是境內？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們也查過相關虛擬資產交易的事實，國人大概70%是使用境外的業者，所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記，您覺得是什麼原因？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛才也有委員提到，就是臺灣的滲透度相對是低，這些低滲透度的人，大概大部分現在……因為我們過去沒有這樣的立法，所以他必須透過一個境外的交易……"],["黃委員珊珊：他搞不清楚要怎麼來做處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼說，假設我們這個產業未來要發展，需要有專法，因為大部分的人，我們希望他未來是透過我們納管的管道……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我現在只問你，你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想境外當然是第一個，我們判斷……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為他們之前都來登記過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，它有很多其他的因素……"],["黃委員珊珊：一、兩年都沒有下文，這才是問題嘛。主委，您來的時候，這個問題我也質詢過很多次，重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試，考試規則要明確。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們現在就是要把它明確化。"],["黃委員珊珊：內容要清楚，審查標準要一致，也就是說，我來考試，我知道我考了幾分會及格，我就會來考試嘛。但是我來考試，我不知道要怎麼考，或怎麼努力可能都不會及格，那我來考試幹嘛？我現在的問題是，光您現在的標準，有八家通過，好，那二十幾家很多有問題，沒有通過，目前為止，這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然很清楚啊，我們的登記辦法裡面，一項一項的跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只看到一大堆要的文件，但是好像沒有說這一個文件缺了你就會怎麼樣，或者是說資本適足率要多少、實收資本額要多少，請問最低標準有公告嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：實收資本額是在專法裡面才會訂定，因為我剛才講這個登記制……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以專法還沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：登記制還是以洗防為基礎，接下來專法才是以機構管理強化。"],["黃委員珊珊：專法裡面就會說清楚了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在等於說，你們也不希望人家現在就來登記，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，就是說我們不同階段，剛剛委員講過，如果這是一個我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不同階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果我們有，為什麼不一次說清楚？已經有人在登記了，你又要等專法，那是怎樣呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，委員這個……我知道你很關心這個問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我的意思是，如果你要考試，有人在登記，然後你告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來，那你現在登記什麼鬼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在登記制也很清楚，它可以來申請，也都沒有問題，對不對？"],["黃委員珊珊：但不知道會不會過，因為沒有標準。"],["彭主任委員金隆：審查的東西不是一個類似自動化進去就會出來，這中間有很多內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說，如果有要登記，就把登記的規則說清楚，我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會、不會，規則很清楚，否則不會有人來申請，而且也通過了。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望，第一，如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的，我希望全部正當合法的業者都會希望來臺灣做登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛剛講得很好，那個正當合法啦，我想這一次……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我同意，我們希望正當合法的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是個透明化的政府，沒有辦法就是說，我們最後否準不同意，一定有理由……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有什麼意見，我只有說規則公布清楚，不要像上次一樣，進來登記的，送了半天的文件，然後不知道為什麼沒有通過，這才是大家會疑慮的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不會不知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，我們希望業者來登記……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦，不會……"],["黃委員珊珊：願意來被你管的，儘量能夠被你管是最好的，對我們來說，因為這樣國人才找得到對象。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：他想要被管，就請他好好的來登記，只要符合相關的條件，我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有錯，我們的想法跟委員一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：而不要讓他在境外，然後賺我們臺灣人這麼多錢，可是我們管不到他，這才奇怪嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是他就要符合我們的要求啊。"],["黃委員珊珊：同意，所以標準清楚、一致。","第二個部分是臺灣虛擬資產使用者有70%使用境外業者平台，我希望透過這個專法能夠把他們也納到臺灣，讓我們來好好的監管，這才是接下來我們應該要做的目的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，而且我們的專法裡面已經有規定，你是境外的VASP就可以來申請。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們是希望它來適用這個法規，而不是用法規把它排除在外面。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會啦，我想只要符合我們的規定，我們其實沒有在區分這個。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！接下來是只要它經過營運的話，將來就是定義……目前虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的嘛，所以目前這個營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該講說它不是金融機構，但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管VASP。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為將來草案裡面，你有開放借貸，也開放移轉及相關保管等業務，其實如果有借貸的話，就是類同於銀行的業務了嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實委員講得沒有錯，對於借貸商的部分，接下來，我們就看他的業務範圍到……比如說槓桿或是比如說他今天做多少的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他有到借貸，他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼這個開始就要有資本適足的規範。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我就說嘛，這個標準趕快訂出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們的子法已經在訂定中。"],["黃委員珊珊：對業者來說，他也要做好準備。第二個，對民眾來說，他們也會知道這家業者我去買有保障，今天的問題是保障，我們希望能夠登記，就是希望你是一個好的業者，你都符合相關的規定，我們的消費者才會有保障。"],["彭主任委員金隆：同意啊。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是同一批的同一個邏輯，所以接下來，如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款，然後又銷售虛擬資產，又用虛擬資產來授信、來借貸，其實他的管理就很重要，萬一像一些業者，如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機，或者是他運作有問題，現在這個專法，還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣的規定去保障之後的消費者？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這裡面剛剛提到，就是我們會分級管理，針對不同的業態，我們上面有七種業態，會根據不同的業態……"],["黃委員珊珊：保管的、借貸的、交易的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，保管商的風險跟借貸商的風險是截然不同的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這些都要把它訂清楚，我之前也有講過嘛，比如說，我們看到美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備，也就是說，他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候，還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗。一樣的，我認為這些業者，他們現在如果真的有狀況……你現在的專法看起來，只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託，或者是做好相關的準備，有沒有要求他們做其他的方式？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該不止，就像我們對現在很多電……當初我們開放電支，它的……"],["黃委員珊珊：電支是有基金的呀。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們有信託，所以我們就是這樣，未來也會比照這樣的方式來管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：你覺得信託就夠了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們會根據不同的……那是一個概念，這個錢……"],["黃委員珊珊：信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託？沒有啊，只有法幣吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分它的法幣特性，因為它主要是跟客戶的資產……"],["黃委員珊珊：也只有法幣嘛，我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況，我的意思是說，我認為啦，類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實委員提醒很多次了，有關當一個機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：不會只有它放個信託就會沒事啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，機構就會有一個退場的問題，所以我們的退場機制也是會規定在裡面。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差，也就是說，它就算去信託了足夠的法幣，可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了，這種情況下，怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益？我認為在這個新的專法裡面，可能主委要把它……既然它可能有類同銀行的業務，那我們就採取類同銀行管理的思考，但是又可能要維持它一定的所謂的自由度，我同意要做一些相關的、特別的處理，但是一樣，要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償、能夠找得到人啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，如果是由金管會納管的話，我想大家……誠如剛剛委員講說，大家還是希望由金管會來管理，大家會比較有信心。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦，因為之前的證期局也是滿辛苦的，因為這個東西沒人見過，所以壓在他們這邊，的確也是一份很大的負擔。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的體諒。"],["黃委員珊珊：既然要接手了，我們就希望所有願意在臺灣登記落地納管的業者都可以來遵循臺灣的法令，希望他們進來登記的時候，我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的。第二個，我們不希望他們還是繼續地在境外，然後跳過各種的方法，否則我們有本事就把他們封鎖，不要讓他們連到臺灣的網路，不然他們只要存在，臺灣人就會去買，然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況，既然我們要管，他們願意來登記，我們的規則清楚，然後希望所有的人都在臺灣落地，這樣才能真正保障臺灣的消費者，也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作的，否則就像剛剛坤城委員說的，刑事警察局去找他們都找不到，如果你今天沒有納管，這種狀況只會更嚴重，連納管的都可能有問題了，不納管的更找不到人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：規則清楚是我們應該做的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是，我們的法規清楚、明確，讓業者都能進來，如果他們不進來，我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序，我們會讓他們在臺灣做不了生意，這樣你才有辦法好好管，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘"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謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以"},{"start":16.667,"end":28.631,"text":"吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範"},{"start":32.672,"end":58.845,"text":"那這個呢 當然呢 這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子 我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢 他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題 就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講 他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上 當然是其人一鬥啦"},{"start":59.725,"end":75.791,"text":"但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員"},{"start":77.131,"end":104.805,"text":"但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛 對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在"},{"start":105.325,"end":121.659,"text":"那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情"},{"start":122.519,"end":141.795,"text":"所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去"},{"start":142.655,"end":167.39,"text":"結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼"},{"start":168.17,"end":174.073,"text":"像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼"},{"start":187.421,"end":208.774,"text":"他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼"},{"start":209.634,"end":225.13,"text":"但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多"},{"start":225.831,"end":247.212,"text":"所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎"},{"start":249.494,"end":274.08,"text":"有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應"},{"start":276.34,"end":293.389,"text":"是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右"},{"start":295.59,"end":309.446,"text":"我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦"},{"start":310.447,"end":338.44,"text":"我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法"},{"start":338.94,"end":362.409,"text":"但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說"},{"start":363.129,"end":382.617,"text":"中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講"},{"start":383.377,"end":411.556,"text":"對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法"},{"start":413.357,"end":430.658,"text":"那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋"},{"start":431.559,"end":450.809,"text":"對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平"},{"start":451.609,"end":474.536,"text":"他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝"},{"start":483.163,"end":502.103,"text":"我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程"},{"start":506.147,"end":521.839,"text":"就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事"},{"start":522.479,"end":542.277,"text":"我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施"},{"start":543.756,"end":559.339,"text":"我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來"},{"start":560.26,"end":588.998,"text":"而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它"},{"start":590.098,"end":619.158,"text":"廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威"},{"start":619.918,"end":645.709,"text":"而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障"},{"start":646.95,"end":661.408,"text":"這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方"},{"start":662.309,"end":680.856,"text":"因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行"},{"start":681.616,"end":693.442,"text":"還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時45分）好，謝謝主席。先有請陸委會，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陸委會。"],["沈委員伯洋：副座，你好。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：我晚一點再問APEC的問題，今天我先問一個問題，因為這個案子跟我自己有關，所以我在左上角有寫了大大的「涉己事件」，還是要提醒一下。"],["主席：堪稱典範。"],["沈委員伯洋：陸委會可能已經知道，就是前陣子我人在韓國的時候，他們對我祭出要做所謂的偵查，我現在比較擔心一些事情，第一個就是時機問題，剛好今天有川習會，在這個之前，其實APEC對他們來講，他們要運用更多的談資等等，在時機上當然是啟人疑竇，但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是在前陣子我們看到台辦已經有說我們台灣的法官、檢察官等等之類的，就把這個東西公布出來，我覺得今天雖然是針對我，那我是一個國會議員，畢竟這是我自己的個案，我不想做太多的延伸。我比較擔心的就是他接下來有可能是對我們的軍公教，軍已經出現了，對不對？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：就是針對我們的資通電等等之類的，在公的方面，其實我們剛剛講的司法人員也開始出現了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：然後接下來又可能會針對一般的人民，所以這有一個很大的問題是我們常常在講的長臂管轄，長臂管轄這個概念在世界各國其實都存在，我發現坊間有一個謬誤，就是美國有長臂管轄，台灣也有長臂管轄，但是有一個很大的差別，就是我們的長臂管轄可能是針對殺人案件、針對嚴重的案件，但是中國的長臂管轄卻是傷害中國人民感情，所以不管他是用懲獨22條還是用國安等等之類的，他這個射程的範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍，這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄很可怕。其實一般人民本來可能不一定會遇到，但是我就想到在去年的時候有立委到香港去，結果有一個一般人民在跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，是花蓮的。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以這是一般人民也會遇到的，當然那是在香港，所以會比較特別，因為畢竟對他們來講是算境內，但是如果今天一樣的事情不是發生在香港而是在別的國家，那該怎麼辦？我覺得以陸委會來講，現在我們面臨一個危機就是他們在步步進逼，像我們常講的灰色地帶，他可能是逼近海峽中線、逼近你的12浬，或是本來今天是漁船，可能以後變成是海警，然後以後可能變成是軍隊，這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼。那他對於個人長臂管轄的懲戒也會步步進逼，他以往就是在網頁上面說要懲戒你們，我們在這邊也是哈哈大笑，覺得你到底要懲戒什麼嘛！但是接下來他把範圍擴大了，比如說，他今天對我的懲戒開始及於我的家人、及於跟我有任何商業往來的對象，然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查，我相信再來就是通緝還有缺席審判，這也是一種步步進逼。但是我現在會擔心，你看像我剛剛講的範圍擴張，如果及於一般人民，然後在他這樣步步進逼之下，中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本，因為他在這一年以來不斷地進逼，在進逼的過程當中，他會覺得台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多。我就請問兩個問題，以陸委會的角度來講，第一個，有沒有一個比較有創意的方式？就是我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的，我覺得這是第一個；第二個，因為一般人民也會遇到這些事情，看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到，那我們要宣導來讓大家知道可能會面臨什麼危機，陸委會現在有這方面的預算嗎？有這樣的能量去做這個事情嗎？因為陸委會去年就已經面臨一個情形，就是有些人主張不是說都不要交流了，那就乾脆不要預算了，開始有人在喊這些東西。現在已經有中國針對台灣這樣的危機，如果我們沒有足夠的能量去因應，這一定會是一個問題，這就跟豬瘟的情形一樣，若今天沒有時間宣導，就有可能會導致病毒擴散，對於這兩個問題，陸委會的回應是？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員，您剛剛提了非常多寶貴的意見，我們都回去整理一下。關於您的兩個問題，第二個問題比較好回答，我先回應一下。我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講，預算無上限，以人員來說的話，因為他們量體也比較大，基本上我們查到光是官方的涉台系統人士大概就有高達60萬左右，而陸委會就只有一百多位，我們的預算沒有超過10億，今年還被砍了非常多，連電費本來都只能繳到9月份，還好有追加回來。確實對於陸委會的同仁來講，今天同仁在這邊也都非常辛苦，我們對於相關要防止統戰、維護國家安全的工作來說，幾乎是在最有限的，而且是非常稀少的預算底下要用到極致，但確實是有非常大的困難，我們真的非常希望各位委員能夠繼續支持陸委會在做的事情。","關於第一件事情，能不能有一些創意？首先要回應的是，我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的方式，不會用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的作法，但第一件事情要講的是，我們會繼續揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖、手段及策略，讓國人能夠清楚知道。第二個事情，就是剛剛委員所提到的，我們也會提醒相關的風險，包含公務員、國會議員等未來出國必須要更加謹慎。","但我們也同時有一些作法，舉個例子來說，中國也還是非常希望能夠有各式各樣的方式到台灣進行交流或遂行統戰，用合法的方式進行包裝。我們會特別提醒他們，如果還是用這麼不文明的手段恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話，那麼未來這樣子的氣氛是非常不利於交流的。又舉個例子來講，對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來，因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作，所以宣稱是台辦的人員，結果來不了台灣，很有可能這個位置會坐不久，而我們就不斷地提醒說：可以，我們當然歡迎你來，但是要健康有序的交流。現在我也不瞞委員說，也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來，我們就跟他講：很抱歉，你們竟然對我們的國會議員──沈伯洋委員去做了這麼不文明的事情，現在你要申請來台灣，在這個氣氛下，我們覺得沒辦法。同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去，讓他們知道做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的事情，其實不利於他們自己本身對台健康有序交流的推動。所以我們會適時地一方面揭露，二方面也會把兩岸交流更多風險的部分予以阻擋。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這就好像回應到巧芯剛剛放的蘭德報告，其實也要回應。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：對我來講，我們當然都希望世界要和平，相信沒有人會希望世界有戰爭，不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議，現在最麻煩的地方是，中國看起來的舉動就是沒有想要和平，對不對？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：它做了不管是對於立案的偵查，或是對於國人的恐嚇，它沒有想要往這個方向進行，所以這個前提本身就不存在。我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員，還有國內的一些政治人物，對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的，因此也才會一直不斷地有這樣的論述出現。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來，因為時間的關係，我想就追問……這個可能要請外交部部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。延續我剛剛的問題，因為外交這件事情很重要，我這陣子也一直出國，立法委員的國會外交其實也是外交的一部分，而中國現在做這樣的事情，它今天只針對我一個人，但接下來有可能會擴張，這實質上會妨礙到外交的進程。也就是我要去的一些國家，很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家、中國勢力比較強盛的國家，它用這樣的方式，假設它未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的，等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事。我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講，大家當然很關注這件事，但我相信發生在我身上的事情，在外交同仁身上已經發生過很多次了，我們外交同仁常常受到騷擾，一年之內要搬很多次家，都只是因為被中國針對。針對這樣的情形，我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有通電訓令外館，跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調，如果發生類似這種情形，因為這也可能在當地國違法，反而中共的人會被抓起來，而且要構成所謂的引渡回去，這個很複雜的，是有條件的，政治犯、良心犯不能引渡，而且必須兩地都有法律的基礎，所以當地國如果沒有向中共訂定這些法，就不構成引渡，雖然它即使有引渡條約或司法互助條約。這都有很多前提，不是說我們不要去留意，我們要留意，而且因應，並且要把它廣為宣傳，去結合一些國家，因為中共的境外長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人，也針對其他國家的人，這在美國、法國、英國等很多國家，其實都已經干擾到人家的法律體系，而且違反這些刑法的原則。","當然中共可能有一些它的鐵桿國家，它可能為了要立威而製造一、兩個這種情形，所以這種國家我們要特別留意，包括我們的國人以外，也包括我們怎麼去應處，跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好國家來做，一起因應這個問題，因為這問題，中共在一些國家設有警察局或服務站等等，這已經干擾到人家的民主法治以及對人權的保障。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長的回應，這邊我稍微再延伸一下，大概30秒，現在中國要在引渡的時候，針對這種政治，它會故意用別的，比如用金融犯罪、用洗錢，它會特別針對這一塊，所以當然是個麻煩的地方。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天本來我還要再問APEC，但因為時間到了，我只是要再確保，因為APEC接下來會在中國，所以這件事情當然會是未來需要去應處的。今天的川習會應該現在還在進行當中，有些問題之後有機會的話我想要再詢問，就是APEC接下來要再舉行，還有川習會之後有可能產生的一些結論，我們在外交上該如何因應？以及國會外交的有些問題，我就等到下一次外交部來的時候再一起問好了。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","部長，建議外交部對於旅遊安全的部分，對於用政治的、不文明的、違反國際方式的這種長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓的這個欄位，應該要有一個正面表列。另外，如果友盟國家可以公開表達反對的話，我覺得對穩定國人……其實我們兩個都剛從國外回來，坦白講，我還是講那句：中國做這個沒用啦！但我們還是要讓人民知道，不用去畏懼這種恐嚇。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林楚茵委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f002d68a7f94048d46c55b9b7d9df2795fe935765bd47f54651f91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:31:38 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10:52:39","影片長度":"00:21:01","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T10:31:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T10:52:39+08:00","duration":1261,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4.418468750000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14.391593750000002,"end":38.775968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":39.16409375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":68.05409375,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":112.41846875,"end":124.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.83159375000001,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.11721875,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":124.21409375,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":127.89284375000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":129.96846875,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.60534375,"end":158.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.65596875,"end":163.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":163.39784375000002,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":165.30471875,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.26596875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":170.67096875000001,"end":189.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.83471875,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.02846875,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.21409375000002,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":183.37784375,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":185.45346875,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":186.68534375000002,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":189.95909375000002,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.78909375,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":219.30471875,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":222.93284375000002,"end":232.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":229.39596875,"end":230.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.42846875,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":237.44534375,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":242.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":242.25471875000002,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":243.21659375000002,"end":244.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":244.22909375,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":251.33346875,"end":257.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":257.57721875000004,"end":261.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":262.79159375,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":286.50096875,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.37971875,"end":322.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.95096875,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":335.92784375,"end":396.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.22284375000004,"end":338.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.55471875,"end":347.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.75721875000005,"end":347.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.84159375,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.81284375,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":402.87096875000003,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.15784375000004,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.87346875000003,"end":415.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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謝謝趙偉那請 先請我們衛福部長 石部長那請部長"},{"start":14.503,"end":38.12,"text":"廖委員長部長好 我想要延續一下最近大家看到我們都很擔心這個兒科啊 急重症啊或是一些這個相關的急重男寒科別的醫師人員流失很嚴重所以想要請問一下部長像兒科 急重症及部分科別的醫師或醫事人員流失問題嚴重那為了要解決這個出走的問題"},{"start":39.201,"end":67.629,"text":"想要請問一下有關醫院醫師加班免稅的部分這個今年底有沒有機會達成那可以讓這個醫院醫師明年在報稅的時候就可以試用那同樣的有關於健保給付的部分請問部長是不是能夠加快以及加大力道檢討醫療服務的給付的部分那我也想要請問這兩個部分目前的已有規劃期程跟方向"},{"start":68.729,"end":90.397,"text":"跟委員報第一個是有關於我們醫師加班因為醫師的工時確實是比較長那麼特別是有一些病人在假日或夜間都需要服務那根據所得稅法那麼一般而言的加班費是可以免稅那所以我們現在在為醫師爭取那麼特別是希望修訂我們的"},{"start":91.577,"end":115.505,"text":"這個健保的特約管理辦法裡面那麼讓他明訂那麼關於按照這個所得稅法規定的加班的這個免稅的這個標準就是上限標準那另外呢如何的這個計算我們已經幾次跟這個相關的這個主管機關包含公立醫院的主管機關所以部長換言之你是很支持這個方向啦是是是 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":117.485,"end":145.184,"text":"對 那我只是想問說那這個期程的部分然後另外一個就是有關於剛剛所謂的這個檢討醫療服務給付的部分那麼加班稅免稅我們是希望在年底前把它完成適用於明年報稅的時候OK 適用明年報稅太好了對對對 這個我們來努力那至於在這個急重症的給付的部分我們今年在健保的總額裡面已經先調整了那麼主要是以加護病房跟急診這邊事先優先調整"},{"start":146.365,"end":169.884,"text":"那麼另外明年的部分我們已經在兒科的部分那麼也匡列了大概0到6歲的兒童的預算匡列249億那我們會優先調整這個兒童的住院的給付都會把它拉高對部長我相信你很專業喔在這個部分畢竟你一路以來這個部分是你專業領域但是我們可以看到"},{"start":171.385,"end":190.356,"text":"雖然這一段時間以來你很努力的去改善可是看起來並沒有阻止也沒有真的很明顯的成效所以我想要說的事情是這個部分是不是可以加大和加快這個力道不然我們都很擔心連醫療中心這個相關的重要的科別都崩潰是 會的會的"},{"start":191.196,"end":205.787,"text":"因為我們這兩年的今年的預算也增加明年的話又是這個以5.5的成長所以我們會連著持續的一直去調整關於在急重症的支付那同時也會搭配醫院評鑑制度的改革"},{"start":206.867,"end":231.637,"text":"來強化這個人才的羅製那另外還有健康台灣深耕計畫那麼也謝謝委員的支持今年已經有近60億那明年會擴大到100億的預算我們也編載預算書那也都是在改善醫護人員的這個工作條件是那部長再麻煩您把目前有的這個相關的報告以及進度交給本席辦公室一份好嗎好沒問題謝謝那再來我要請這個關務署長"},{"start":243.535,"end":260.642,"text":"蘇長蘇長好基本上這整件事件從流程來看今天排這個其實包含農業部長也說過去本土沒有案例所以一定是從境外來那外界關注這個境外的包裹是不是變成防疫的破口也是一個問題所以"},{"start":262.87,"end":285.496,"text":"今天要特別的討論說這所謂的邊境破口到底在哪裡那麼根據新聞報導關務署也表示說海關針對於民眾以海運快遞空運快遞或者是郵包進進口的貨品均全面的X光已檢了那也從10月24號開始說提高人工開箱的查驗比率那因此想要問署長"},{"start":286.596,"end":305.422,"text":"有關於這個關務署強調進口郵包進口快遞100%的X框查驗聽起來是個有效的方式但是為什麼還有媒體會報導說有第一線的物流人士表示肉製品大量以包裹或夾櫃的方式流入這是空穴來風呢還是是說這個部分真的有一些漏洞"},{"start":307.251,"end":335.924,"text":"跟委員報告就如同剛委員所提的我們不管是旅客行李或者是這個郵包或者是快遞貨物那我們是百分之百X光檢查那如果有影像有異常的話就會人工開箱查驗那所以我們其實一直都是做這樣子一個強化那現在的話我們更是會提高我們的人工的一個查驗比例"},{"start":336.064,"end":361.427,"text":"是因為署長我們大概推估一下疫情爆發後10月24號到26號這三天其實各官的人工開箱查驗件數大概是4000件超過4000件那查獲違規豬肉製品大概4件共6.7公斤那用這個比例來算大概是千分之一所以大概人工去檢查後可能比純木式的X光還要來精準許多"},{"start":362.268,"end":383.271,"text":"所以我們就保守估計如果用X光的這個疏漏率假設掃過去沒有辦法馬上找到有問題的話這個比率假設是人工的一半好了就是用0.5的話那麼如果照2024年的台灣進口包裹總數量是5847萬件來算可能也有8萬件的沒有查到的漏網之餘"},{"start":384.332,"end":396.079,"text":"所以因為我當然可以理解說不可能每一個包裹都用人工檢查啦這是不可能事情但是這樣子的數量我想請問有沒有去檢討或是什麼更有效的方式來防堵這個漏洞"},{"start":397.414,"end":417.411,"text":"報告委員就是說當然我們今天因為海關的人力的問題所以我們一定會強化我們運用相關的這個高科技包括剛才提到的S光還有另外就是我們跟房檢署這邊房檢署他有這個檢疫犬那也會請這個房檢署的檢疫犬隊可以"},{"start":417.771,"end":446.669,"text":"加強這個一個繡紋那另外就是說我們增加我們的一個開箱的比率還有就是也會提高我們低線官員他在辨識這個S光影像的一個專業的知能好我想要提出來就是用這個數據來看這個可能是有漏網之語是非常的多你們可能要去想辦法精進相關的相關的流程上有沒有辦法更嚴格在既有的資源之下還有或是科技的應用之下"},{"start":447.389,"end":468.667,"text":"那另外呢 這個你們也有備詢的時候表示郵包 茶貨 肉製品大概是1000件那淡井開發9件 這比例非常的低 請問原因是什麼那也想要請問 好 您先說原因是什麼先跟委員報告 就是有關我們郵包 海關 茶貨那我們是已給防檢署這邊來做採訪所以有關採訪的部分是防檢署這邊的一個圈館"},{"start":475.092,"end":479.179,"text":"好 那請相關的房間署來回答報告委員"},{"start":485.444,"end":507.291,"text":"那我們大概都移送採訪因為在這個過程之中很多數是因為冒名或者是不知情那所以說沒有辦法追溯所以這也是一個很大的原因嘛1000件有開罰9件其實是非常的低啊千分之九那主要原因就是你說可能冒名或者是雙方不知道是誰或是第一次"},{"start":507.811,"end":533.17,"text":"非故意嘛所以现在回头来看首次非故意免罚是不是就可能变成是一个有心人可以钻的漏洞是嘛我们也在检讨对你也说是嘛对不对对我们现在也在检讨但这会回到一个问题就是假设A跟B那A如果对B有意见故意陷害记了对故意陷害我记了一百件所以这个东西是一个要检讨的东西所以我也可以理解因为如果有人"},{"start":533.951,"end":544.887,"text":"刻意被陷害的話所以這個部分是想要問說那可不可以請電商平台也負起相關的責任比如說主動勸阻啦或是針對違規的商家進行處罰"},{"start":546.024,"end":566.403,"text":"有 目前我們的電商平台有配合我們所以您支持這個方向 對我說明一下就是說這幾年我們一直在努力跟電商平台就是它要有一些的自主的管理的一個機制上然後再加上配合我們做一些的相關的一個宣導所以其實從我們開發的比例我講的是電商是電商的這個部分那它已經降低了這個財閥數了"},{"start":569.826,"end":586.082,"text":"有那個效果出來嗎你說因為跟他們溝通完之後你們這個數量是沒有 採取種種的措施對 這數量是有下降可是可能顯然還不夠嘛1000件裡面只有9件開罰不是 這兩件事情對 我的意思是說這個部分因為你剛剛說你擔心他被陷害"},{"start":586.863,"end":605.677,"text":"好然後或者是你這個制度上你擔心AB互相不認識那這個源頭是不是有可能跟電商平台要負起相關的責任有關所以我們剛剛講的是這個啊你說因為你跟他們溝通完有下降有下降那這個部分是不是還還可以有空間去更精進的作為更精進的作為那另外整個"},{"start":608.384,"end":631.244,"text":"現在目前已經有更改到實名制官務署已經更改到實名制了所以他要雙證件這樣就避免了很多假冒的一個行為所以現在這段的時間事實上這個違規的行為也降低了比率也降低了 比率降低多少就是成效如何"},{"start":637.608,"end":649.056,"text":"好沒關係顯然你們現在沒有明確的數字啊查完之後給本席辦公室好不好好那我想要因為時間有限我繼續問一下也根據審計部的資料我可能這個部分要請衛福部長還有我們管務署長請部長"},{"start":653.959,"end":669.919,"text":"根據審計部的資料 其實也有許多比如說外國地區 其他地區的比如大陸地區 其他國家食品用個人的這個自用名義輸入雖然沒有申請邊境查驗但卻實際可能作為販售的用途"},{"start":670.64,"end":687.22,"text":"像2023年有超過70萬人用這個方式進口食品而且重複進口的紀錄也高達數百次甚至每日的進口量也遠超過每日個人的合理攝取量所以有些時候也很難解釋說是自用"},{"start":688.161,"end":707.832,"text":"譬如說113年度申請這個免查驗輸入食品的相次前10名每人進口的這個報單數介於58分到3002分也逐漸這樣子是不是沒有有效的邊境控制的機制譬如說若這一類的食品"},{"start":708.712,"end":726.806,"text":"如果流入市面販售再要透過地方去後端市場去稽查基本上是事倍公辦也很難回溯進貨的來源也可能造成民眾很多無謂的困擾所以目前請問部長對於這個個人民意輸入制度的漏洞"},{"start":727.606,"end":748.068,"text":"食藥署或是署長有沒有辦法沿你要增設或者是你們有沒有什麼相關的經濟措施比如說增設進口頻率上限啊個人總量管制的制度啊或者是說有相關跟關務署跟食藥署建構一個類似通報系統比如說高頻輸入者他可能是一個重點稽查的名單請問這部分有沒有"},{"start":749.069,"end":771.603,"text":"跟委員報告確實現在呢個人輸入自用的部分是有6公斤以下1000美元以下這個是免這個食品這個申請輸入的規定但是他還是要堅守在邊關需要有這個檢查還是不能夠有這個假查這個違規的"},{"start":773.744,"end":794.876,"text":"物品所以這個還是在邊境還是需要查驗的至於剛剛提到確實如果說我們能夠進行溝機對一些高頻率因為為了這樣去這個限縮所有的國人他的自用的當然所以我說你可能要用溝機的方式更精準的去查驗對這個我們來研究看看"},{"start":798.817,"end":820.267,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢這部分呢我們在之前非洲豬瘟之前我們就發現這樣子極度異常的其實這樣子的規定是在108年4月份我們公告隔年109年7月我們就覺得有異狀所以我們你把上面的修正的每日以及總額一天的一千美金等等修改"},{"start":821.427,"end":839.61,"text":"經過爭取意見之後對我們那時候的規定是希望能修改徵求有197個意見就一個意見贊成所有都反對所以在當時前之前的研議之下就稍微延緩我想這一次我們是一個很好契機重新去檢討跟勾擊那個嚴重"},{"start":840.791,"end":863.377,"text":"不合常理之下的一個個人輸入那實際上就是後市場專我們稽查有很多的臨時在銷售裡面呢都是以個人名義進來實際上銷售之時我想也有一些關稅的問題也有一些不符合個人使用的一些我們當初的美意所在我們會積極的修正 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":864.577,"end":877.907,"text":"那再去這個再麻煩經濟研議那也給北市辦公室一個你們最後的結論好因為這是兩個不同的方向好那這在最後一條我要請請這個請回座請經濟部請經濟部好"},{"start":889.042,"end":900.964,"text":"我想要請問一下因為根據這個商業刊物的統計過去10年台灣的小型包裹進口量從1582萬件成長到5847萬件增幅高達270%那同期的這個進口的包裹金額也從221億增長到656億累積增幅也將近快200%"},{"start":915.367,"end":937.803,"text":"那換句話說呢其實台灣民眾向海外購買產品可能已經成為一個不可逆的趨勢所以就我所知目前各大平台尤其是大陸的各大平台還沒有在台灣落地所以因此這一次的這個非洲豬瘟進口製品問題卓院長表示希望限期讓這些平台在台灣落地以便行政管理跟救責對嗎"},{"start":940.485,"end":954.592,"text":"是的 卓院長在前天在立法院會有這樣表示那跟委員補充那個電商平台的主管是數位部是不是請 經濟部跟數法部一起來好了因為剛剛在跟您講一些數據 數法部也一起"},{"start":970.074,"end":991.441,"text":"所以基本上左院長的立場是說希望這些平台盡快落地可是其實我製作的一些時間表包含2008年這個淘寶用新加坡公司名義在台設立分公司那2015年被投審會要求撤資這個2018年淘寶在台設立港資跟英資的子公司分別營運"},{"start":992.381,"end":998.925,"text":"那這個總站的廣告跟台灣站的電商平台業務那2020年呢淘寶台灣也被經濟部稱這個落地台灣以為兩岸條例這就是為什麼剛剛要請經濟部來那限期半年內撤資否則連續重罰廢止許可"},{"start":1008.951,"end":1020.621,"text":"那淘寶台灣站只好宣布立刻關閉那2024年底呢港商淘寶台灣分公司投放雙11的優惠廣告那經濟部也稱說違反營業登記項目違法經營電商業務重罰120萬限半年內撤資否則繼續重罰"},{"start":1027.307,"end":1055.065,"text":"那就在前幾天這個卓院長表示限期讓他們來落地設立公司負責否則要強制下架那我要說的事情喔這個究竟他們要不要落地願不願意落地這是他們不願意還是是我們在法規上或者在輔導上有問題那現在等到發生事情了才要特別說要找他來負責要叫他趕快落地這樣感覺是很相互矛盾喔會讓人家覺得說政策好像是"},{"start":1055.985,"end":1080.435,"text":"像這個初一十五不一樣想要請問具體要怎麼幫助他們相關的落地計畫謝謝委員的推詢其實關於這部分來講的話我想說落地的部分其實當然基本上還是要配合這個因為任何的不管是大陸或者是世界各國落地的話當然就要配合我們投審會的相關機制"},{"start":1081.555,"end":1101.749,"text":"當然對我們的一些國內電商的一些衝擊我們都會一起來評估所以我想問說如果沒有順利落地的話那口中院長口中強制下架是什麼樣的措施我大概講一下這其實在重點落不落地其實重點在於這個管理因為今天這個非洲租運的事情真的要去做處理來做一個管理所以我們有想到幾個管理的方式"},{"start":1103.03,"end":1126.726,"text":"例如說淘寶這部分來講的話我們不管是境內境外我們會積極跟淘寶聯繫像現在目前你看那個淘寶其實有做一些措施你看到他的那個封面裡面已經有配合那個農業部的那個這是一部分嗎對那你們是不是還有可能用什麼其他技術手段譬如說禁止訪問沒有這個許可的電商平台"},{"start":1128.307,"end":1156.627,"text":"呃有有幾個啦吼第一個就是標示嘛吼那淘寶的部分來講的話他會特別如果是從台灣來的這些IP有沒有然後你用IP去封他台灣來的IP就不會去看看到那個肉品因為呃對他來講境外來講這些肉品可能可以賣到其他國家但是我們國家對於非洲基金這個非常關心所以他們現在目前也有這個措施就是說啊但除非你是跳到別的外面去對那他不就透過VPN就就一樣嗎"},{"start":1158.294,"end":1182.389,"text":"但是這部分跳過去回來就是還是就是今天這是一連串的問題但是我盡量可以做的就是這部分那另外我們也思考另外一個可以管理的方式就是我們有看到那個廣告的部分其實還是很重要我們怎麼去透過所以我們接下來會找這些平台因為他們很多都會在Meta上面去PO一些廣告我們接下來會去找他們來去如何去讓這一類的廣告能夠盡量減少"},{"start":1184.69,"end":1204.115,"text":"所以基本上同樣邏輯啦不只是大陸的這個拼多多京東抖音購物可能還有韓國的庫蓬還有日本的美錄可力然後美國亞馬遜沃爾瑪東南亞的Lazada這些通通都是國外的平台到目前也都沒有落地喔所以是用同樣的就是方式去跟他們談對嗎同樣的標準"},{"start":1206.736,"end":1233.642,"text":"來跟委員報告一下其實庫蓬庫蓬這部分他已經落地所以庫蓬這邊來講的話我們有落地像這麼大的一個韓國的電商其實我們也會積極的查核對我剛還有講到好幾個不同的好幾個的話我們如果有如果現在短期間還沒有落地的話我們盡量就會跟他們去做溝通那如果有一些狀況那Amazon倒是比較好一點因為Amazon他要上架的時候他必須要有品牌我們有跟他"},{"start":1234.102,"end":1261.688,"text":"在做因為他有全球開店平台的一些活動那我們跟他講那他其實要上架不是隨隨便便就可以上架的對這部分的尺度喔還有相關的技術規範喔這個可能要拿捏而且要盡速的跟他們溝通好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝趙偉好謝謝廖趙偉那委員會重新公告齁我們剛剛宣布是10點半啊現在呃這個待林書文委員吹醒完之後我們再休息10分鐘齁抱歉來請林書文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時31分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委。先請衛福部石部長。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：廖委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。我想要延續一下，最近看到大家都很擔心兒科、急重症，或是一些急重難罕科別的醫師，人員流失很嚴重。請問部長，像兒科、急重症及部分科別的醫師或醫事人員流失問題嚴重，為了要解決出走的問題，有關醫院醫師加班免稅的部分，今年底有沒有機會達成？可以讓醫院醫師明年在報稅的時候就可以適用。同樣，有關於健保給付的部分，請問部長是不是能夠加快、加大力道檢討醫療服務給付？請問這兩個部分目前的規劃期程跟方向？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，第一個有關於醫師加班，因為醫師的工時確實比較長，特別有一些病人在假日或夜間都需要服務，根據所得稅法，一般而言加班費可以免稅，所以我們現在為醫師爭取，特別希望修訂我們健保特約管理辦法，在裡面明定關於按照所得稅法規定的加班免稅上限標準。另外如何計算的部分，我們已經幾次跟相關主管機關，包含公立醫院的主管機關、財政部……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，換言之，你是很支持這個方向，而且也在推動當中？"],["石部長崇良：是，很謝謝委員的關心。"],["廖委員偉翔：我只是想問期程的部分，及有關剛剛說的檢討醫療服務給付的部分。"],["石部長崇良：加班費免稅，我們希望在年底前完成，適用於明年報稅的時候，可以來……"],["廖委員偉翔：適用明年報稅，太好了！"],["石部長崇良：對，這個我們來努力。至於急重症給付的部分，我們今年在健保的總額裡面已經先調整了，主要以加護病房跟急診優先調整。另外，明年我們已經在兒科的部分針對0到6歲兒童的預算匡列了249億，我們會優先調整兒童住院給付，會把它拉高。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我相信你很專業，畢竟一路以來，這部分是你專業的領域，但是我們可以看到，雖然這段時間你很努力改善，可是看起來並沒有阻止，也沒有真的很明顯的成效，我想要說的是這部分是不是可以加大和加快力道？不然我們都很擔心，連醫療中心重要的科別都崩潰。"],["石部長崇良：會的、會的，因為我們今年預算增加，明年又是以5.5%成長，我們會持續調整關於急重症的支付，同時也會搭配醫院評鑑制度的改革，來強化人才的羅致。另外還有健康臺灣深耕計畫，也謝謝委員的支持，今年已經有近60億，明年會擴大到100億的預算，我們也編在預算書，都是在改善醫護人員的工作條件。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長再麻煩您把目前相關的報告以及進度交給本席辦公室一份，好嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好，沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。再來，我要請關務署副署長。"],["主席：請副署長。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：副署長好。基本上，整件事從流程來看，今天排這個議題，包含農業部長也說過去本土沒有案例，所以一定是從境外來。外界關注境外包裹是不是變成防疫的破口，這也是一個問題，所以今天要特別討論邊境破口到底在哪裡？","根據新聞報導，關務署也表示海關針對民眾以海運快遞、空運快遞或是郵包進口的貨品均全面X光儀檢。從10月24號開始提高人工開箱的查驗比率，因此想要問副署長，關於關務署強調進口郵包、進口快遞100% X光查驗，聽起來是個有效的方式，但是為什麼還有媒體會報導，有第一線的物流人士表示肉製品大量以包裹或夾櫃的方式流入，這是空穴來風？還是這部分真的有一些漏洞？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，如同剛剛委員所提的，我們不管是旅客行李或是郵包、快遞貨物，我們是100%　X光檢查，如果影像有異常的話，就會人工開箱查驗，我們其實一直做這樣的強化，現在我們更會提高人工的查驗比率。"],["廖委員偉翔：副署長，我們大概推估一下，疫情爆發後，10月24號到26號這三天，各關的人工開箱查驗件數超過4,000件，查獲違規豬肉製品4件，共6.7公斤，用這個比例來算大概是千分之一。","人工檢查可能比純目視的X光還要精準許多，我們保守估計，如果用X光的疏漏率，假設掃過去沒有辦法馬上找到問題，這個比率假設是人工的一半好了，用0.5的話，如果照2024年臺灣進口包裹總數量是5,847萬件來算，可能有8萬件是沒有查到的漏網之魚。","我當然可以理解不可能每一個包裹都用人工檢查，這是不可能的事情，但是這樣的數量，請問有沒有去檢討，或是更有效的方式來防堵漏洞？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：報告委員，當然，今天因為海關人力的問題，我們一定會強化運用相關的高科技，包括剛才提到的X光，我們也請防檢署的檢疫犬隊加強嗅聞，另外我們增加開箱的比率，也提高我們第一線官員辨識X光影像的專業知能……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要提出，用這個數據來看，漏網之魚可能非常多，你們可能要想辦法精進相關的流程，在既有的資源或是科技的應用之下，有沒有辦法更嚴格？","你們備詢的時候表示郵包查獲肉製品大概是1,000件，但僅開罰9件，比例非常低，請問原因是什麼？也想要請問……好，你先說原因是什麼？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，有關海關查獲郵包，我們是移給防檢署裁罰，所以有關裁罰的部分是防檢署的權管。"],["廖委員偉翔：請防檢署回答。"],["主席：請署長。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們大概都移送裁罰，這個過程中，很多是因為冒名或是不知情，所以沒辦法追溯。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這也是一個很大的原因，1,000件開罰9件其實是非常的低，只有千分之九，主要原因就是你說的，可能是冒名或者是雙方不知道是誰，或是第一次非故意嘛，所以現在回頭來看，首次非故意免罰是不是可能變成一個有心人可以鑽的漏洞？"],["杜署長麗華：是，這個我們也在檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：是嘛，您也說是嘛，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：對，我們現在也在檢討，但這會回到一個問題，假設A跟B，A如果對B有意見……"],["廖委員偉翔：故意陷害，是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：對，故意陷害，寄了100件……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這個是要去檢討的東西，我也可以理解也許有人是刻意被陷害，所以這個部分想要請問的是，可不可以請電商平臺也負起相關的責任？譬如說主動勸阻，或是針對違規的商家進行處罰。"],["杜署長麗華：有，目前我們的電商平臺有配合我們。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以您支持這個方向？"],["杜署長麗華：我說明一下，這幾年我們一直努力跟電商平臺……就是他們要有一些自主管理機制，然後再加上配合我們做一些的相關宣導，所以在電商這個部分，我們從開罰比率來看，裁罰數已經降低了，已經有效果出來了。"],["廖委員偉翔：你說是跟他們溝通完之後，這個數量……"],["杜署長麗華：沒有，採取種種的措施。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這個數量是有下降？"],["杜署長麗華：有下降。"],["廖委員偉翔：可是顯然還不夠嘛，1,000件裡面只有9件開罰……"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這是兩件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：我的意思是說，因為你剛剛說你擔心有人是被陷害的，或者是在這個制度上，你擔心A、B互相不認識，這個源頭是不是有可能跟電商平臺要負起相關的責任有關？我們剛才講的是這個，你說在跟他們溝通完之後有下降……"],["杜署長麗華：有下降。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分是不是還可以有空間去……"],["杜署長麗華：更精進的作為……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，更精進的作為。"],["杜署長麗華：另外，目前關務署已經更改為實名制了，需要雙證件，這樣就避免了很多假冒的行為，所以現在這一段時間的違規行為也降低了，比率也降低了。"],["廖委員偉翔：降低了多少？就是成效如何？好，沒關係，顯然你們現在沒有明確的數字……"],["杜署長麗華：我們查了以後再……"],["廖委員偉翔：請查完之後給本席辦公室，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為時間有限，我繼續往下問，接下來要請衛福部長及關務署署長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["廖委員偉翔：根據審計部的資料，其實也有許多外國地區或其他地區如大陸地區或其他國家的食品用個人自用的名義輸入，雖然沒有申請邊境查驗，但卻實際可能作為販售的用途。2023年有超過70萬人用這個方式進口食品，而且重複進口的紀錄也高達數百次，甚至每日的進口量也遠超過每日個人的合理攝取量，所以有些時候也很難解釋是自用。以113年度申請免查驗輸入食品項次的前十名來說，每人進口的報單數介於58份到3,002份，這樣是不是表示沒有有效的邊境控制機制？這一類的食品如果流入市面販售，再要透過地方去做後端市場的稽查，基本上是事倍功半，也很難回溯進貨的來源，更可能造成民眾很多無謂的困擾。所以請問部長，對於目前以個人名義輸入的制度漏洞，食藥署或是署長是否研擬相關辦法或是相關的精進措施？比如說增設進口頻率上限、個人總量管制制度，或者是跟關務署、食藥署建構一個類似通報的系統？比如將高頻輸入者列為重點稽查名單，請問這部分有沒有？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，確實現在個人輸入自用的部分是有6公斤以下、1,000美元以下免食品申請輸入的規定，但是他還是要遵守邊關需要的檢查，還是不能夠夾雜違規的物品，所以這個在邊境還是需要查驗的。","至於剛剛提到的，確實，如果我們能夠進行勾稽，對一些高頻率者，為了這樣而去限縮所有國人的自用輸入，這個不需要。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，所以我說你可能要用勾稽的方式。"],["石部長崇良：用勾稽的方式，更精準的……"],["廖委員偉翔：更精準的去查驗。"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，這個我們來研究看看，我請署長說明。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的垂詢，有關這個部分，在非洲豬瘟之前我們就發現有這種極度異常的情況，其實這樣的規定是我們在108年4月份公告的，隔年109年7月我們就覺得有異狀，所以我們擬把上面的每日以及一天總額1,000美金等等予以修改，經過徵詢意見……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們改了會變嚴格，是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們那時候是希望能修改規定，徵求了197個意見，只有1個意見贊成，所有都反對，所以當時的研議就稍微延緩了。我想這一次是一個很好的契機，重新去檢討跟勾稽那個嚴重不合常理之下的個人輸入，實際上在後市場端……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我覺得勾稽是要去做的……"],["姜署長至剛：我們稽查發現有很多零食的銷售都是以個人名義進來，實際上行銷售之實，我想這有一些關稅的問題，也有一些不符合個人食用的一些……違背了我們當初的美意所在，所以我們會積極地修正。以上。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，麻煩去精進研議，也給本席辦公室一個你們最後的結論，因為這是兩個不同的方向。","再來最後一題，我要請經濟部。"],["主席：請經濟部。"],["簡組長俊良：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問一下，因為根據商業刊物的統計，過去十年臺灣的小型包裹進口量從1,582萬件成長到5,847萬件，增幅高達270%，同期進口包裹金額也從221億增長到656億，累積增幅也將近快200%。換句話說，其實臺灣民眾向海外購買產品可能已經成為一個不可逆的趨勢。就我所知，目前各大平臺，尤其是大陸的各大平臺，還沒有在臺灣落地，因此對於這一次非洲豬瘟進口製品的問題，卓院長表示希望限期讓這些平臺在臺灣落地，以便行政管理跟究責，對嗎？"],["簡組長俊良：報告委員，卓院長在前天的立法院院會有這樣表示。跟委員補充，電商平臺的主管是數位部，是不是請數位部……"],["廖委員偉翔：經濟部跟數發部一起來好了，因為剛剛在跟您講一些數據，請數發部也一起。"],["主席：請數發部。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以基本上卓院長的立場是希望這些平臺儘快落地，可是以我製作的一些時間表來看，包含2008年淘寶用新加坡公司名義在臺設立分公司，2015年被投審會要求撤資。2018年淘寶在臺設立港資/英資子公司分別營運總站廣告跟臺灣站電商平臺業務，但2020年淘寶臺灣站也被經濟部稱落地臺灣違反兩岸條例，限期半年內撤資，否則連續重罰、廢止許可，這就是為什麼要請經濟部上來。淘寶臺灣站只好宣布立刻關閉。2024年底港商淘寶臺灣分公司投放雙十一的優惠廣告，經濟部也稱說違反營業登記項目、違法經營電商業務，重罰120萬，並限期半年內撤資，否則繼續重罰。就在前幾天，卓院長表示限期讓他們來落地設立公司負責，否則要強制下架。","我要說的是，究竟他們要不要落地、願不願意落地，這是他們不願意還是我們在法規上或者是在輔導上有問題？等到現在發生事情了，才特別要找他來負責，叫他趕快落地，這樣感覺是很相互矛盾的，會讓人家覺得政策好像是初一、十五不一樣，想要請問具體要怎麼幫助他們相關的落地計畫？"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員的垂詢，其實關於落地的部分，不管是大陸或者是世界各國要落地的話，當然就要配合我們投審會的相關機制，至於對我們國內電商造成的衝擊，我們都會一起來評估，這是第一個部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想問的是，如果沒有順利落地的話，院長口中的強制下架是什麼樣的措施？"],["林組長青嶔：我大概講一下，落不落地的重點在於管理，因為今天這個非洲豬瘟的事情真的要去做處理，要做一個管理。所以我們有想到幾個管理的方式，例如說淘寶這部分來講的話，不管是境內境外，我們會積極跟淘寶聯繫，像現在目前你看淘寶其實有做一些措施，你看到它的封面上已經有配合農業部的……"],["廖委員偉翔：這是一部分嘛。"],["林組長青嶔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們是不是還有可能用什麼其他的技術手段，譬如說禁止訪問沒有許可的電商平臺？"],["林組長青嶔：有幾個，第一個就是標示，就淘寶的部分來講，如果是從臺灣來的這些IP……"],["廖委員偉翔：你用IP去封？"],["林組長青嶔：臺灣來的IP就不會去看到肉品，因為對它來講，就境外來講，這些肉品可能會賣到其他國家，但是我們國家對於非洲豬瘟這個非常關心，所以他們現在目前也有這個措施。除非是跳到別的外面去……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以透過VPN不就一樣嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：但是這個部分跳過去，再回來就今天的問題，這個是一連串的問題啦！但是我儘量可以做的就是這部分。另外，我們也思考另外一個可以管理的方式，我們有看到廣告的部分其實還是很重要，我們怎麼去透過廣告處理，所以我們接下來會找這些平臺，因為他們很多都會在Meta上面去PO一些廣告，我們接下來會去找他們，看如何讓這一類廣告能夠儘量減少。"],["廖委員偉翔：基本上同樣的邏輯，不只是大陸的拼多多、京東、抖音購物，可能還有韓國的酷澎，還有日本的美露可利，然後美國的亞馬遜、沃爾瑪，東南亞的Lazada，這些通通都是國外的平臺，到目前也都沒有落地，所以是用同樣的方式去跟他們談，對嗎？同樣的標準。"],["林組長青嶔：跟委員報告一下，酷澎這部分已經落地，既然有落地，像這麼大的一個韓國電商，我們也會積極的查核。"],["廖委員偉翔：也會積極查核？"],["林組長青嶔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛還有講到好幾個不同的平臺……"],["林組長青嶔：那好幾個平臺，如果現在短期間還沒有落地的話，我們就會儘量跟他們去做溝通，如果有一些狀況。Amazon倒是比較好一點，因為Amazon要上架的時候必須要有品牌，我們也有跟它溝通，因為它有全球開店平臺的一些活動，我們有跟它講，其實它要上架不是隨隨便便就可以上架的。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分的尺度還有相關的技術規範可能要拿捏，而且要儘速的跟他們溝通。謝謝。謝謝主席，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝廖召委。","委員會重新公告：我們剛剛宣布是十點半休息，現在待林淑芬委員垂詢完之後，我們再休息10分鐘，抱歉。","來，請林淑芬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 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我們按照規定就按照這個相關的規定來看這個是不是很重大的訊息"},{"start":182.639,"end":202.867,"text":"不過這個部分我剛才講說這個確實我這邊沒有辦法站在經管會立場去說明因為這個事實的情況非常非常複雜你也是監理機關嘛第一個我也沒有參與他們的協商我也沒有參與這個內容還有整個過程就是在我們想法裡面就很簡單這個合併案前面這個它是不是屬於51種上市公司必須公告的事項"},{"start":203.786,"end":226.784,"text":"我想它裡面有一項說會有影響什麼什麼的這個對啊 對上市公司股東權益或證券價格有重大影響對不對這個牽涉到當時的判斷我想有關註券的發布那主委也應該是認為說是有影響才會叫證那個證交所再去因為輿論已經有媒體報導這邊市場這樣我們當然機器主管就說你是交易所是主政單位你當然要去處理對 這當然是啊這個我們"},{"start":230.192,"end":252.641,"text":"我剛才幾位委員我也說過開記者會的時候政企局的副局長有說過這東西有爭議性證交所就會去查證那目前有查證嗎有啊那查證的結果是什麼沒有 我剛才講說交易所查證完他會對外說明那到現在三天的時間了那就我們會再請交易所進行查證所以這個要查多久啊"},{"start":254.041,"end":281.292,"text":"這個我就會請交易所盡快去做證件這個我說已經三天了那作為這個金管會你是監理機關那你認為說是幾天查出來是合乎規定的沒有 我想交易所在處理這已經非常非常有經驗因為這個對 就像你講的其實規定都很清楚該不該發布這個重大訊息這其實都有規範那三天時間你們查不出來不是我們查是交易所我們會那那個政經局局長有去查嗎"},{"start":286.8,"end":307.313,"text":"對 一樣我們剛才已經 剛才講而且交易所應該是有請他們不是 我請這個張局長打一下有去查嗎這個這一段在查核中的事情在查核中 哪時候會有結果等到事實的時間看到結果才能夠判斷什麼結果才能夠判斷我當然知道我的意思是說你們要多久的時間依照一般程序我們就會進行處理一般程序大概是幾天"},{"start":316.335,"end":336.656,"text":"應該在一週內吧我再問一下主委 這個到底因為外界形容說這個是摸黑交易那個標題是媒體下的你是監理機關 你要做個說明那到底這個有沒有經過這個Binding offer有沒有經過董事會的授權"},{"start":338.581,"end":365.794,"text":"我想在整個交易的過程當中有各種不同的授權的型態他們如果說這些他們是一個上市會公司他應該按照規定該怎麼對外說明就按照這個來說明不是 因為剛剛主委一直強調說這個公司都會這個有公司治理的相關規定他們都知道如果大家都知道也有遵守的話其實這個金管會也不用那麼辛苦了金管會的存在就是說對於公司治理有問題的地方你們要提出監管"},{"start":366.294,"end":381.035,"text":"我們不會在一個事情我們完全沒有釐清的情況就在這邊先下結論所以剛剛講過我們是尊重他的體制因為這個重訓的發布不是做重訓的發布啦重訓發布是另外一個那另外一個就是說那到底"},{"start":382.353,"end":407.743,"text":"這個董事會提出了這一個Binding offer有沒有經過這個董事會的決議或同意是這件事情因為涉及到公司治理的問題他們在協商的過程當中不需要跟主管機關說明這些事情我想說他們未來如果正式要送件他要仔細的說明他整個程序是符合的這時候他們就要自己要去所以他們送過來的時候你們就會去檢查說"},{"start":409.284,"end":425.679,"text":"當初的這段過程到底有沒有經過董事會的決議就對了那所有的文件裡面應該要符合我們的規定假設比如說按照媒體的那個說明它是會按照金空法第26條裡面該送的文件所有的這些過去都非常那如果啦如果"},{"start":427.281,"end":443.169,"text":"這個玉山金他們沒有舉行董事會但是相關的人員他提交具備法律約束力的這個交易價格跟換股比例的話你要這樣子這個最後也收購了那把這些資料送到金管會那這樣子有符合相關的規定嗎"},{"start":443.749,"end":459.52,"text":"金管會的要求就是根據金控法假設是根據26條他必須董事會做成決議經過他們的股東大會決議雙方做成股份轉換契約書檢送相關的這些書件送金管會審查那所以如果沒有經過董事會決議"},{"start":460.766,"end":483.226,"text":"對 它是必要的程序這個法條寫得非常清楚所以如果沒有開過董事會然後自行提交這些具有法律約束力的這個交易的價格那是像金管會送件的要求他們前面是他的協商程序對我意思就是說如果沒有經過董事會決議的話那這個程序有符合你們的標準嗎"},{"start":483.686,"end":505.474,"text":"沒有 我剛才講說前面的部分是他們協商他最後送過來的時候他必須明確的完成公司治理的程序還有我們法規的要求的程序那所以有媒體形容這一段沒有經過董事會決議是摸黑交易那主委怎麼評論沒有 這應該是他們自己去澄清這是他們自己因為實際上這個這也不是要他們自己去澄清你作為監理機關你也有"},{"start":505.774,"end":529.376,"text":"你有這個資格去要求我們沒有立場幫他代達這個問題你不是代達這個問題我要求的是一個市場秩序公司管理的問題沒有 如果他以後他的這些的不完備他當然不能送件而且送件我們也會提出質疑好 今天的書面報告包含內政部警政署主委有看過嗎有"},{"start":530.973,"end":557.747,"text":"有 有看過對 那如果有看過這個我看了警政署 刑事檢察局他提到很多的困境那這些困境 這個有六點困境那第一個就是說這個金管會公佈已經不得提供虛擬資產服務的原來的這個就是沒有合格的這些洗錢防治法的這些業者他們後續的相關的資料"},{"start":558.627,"end":577.134,"text":"也沒有規範要保存恐怕成為偵辦的斷點然後金管也要求VASP要定期通報使用的錢包地址但是不肖業者沒有如實申報然後警察機關也沒有VASP所屬錢包的地址的資料追求不法金流不知道向哪一家業者調閱資料"},{"start":578.214,"end":606.069,"text":"然後這些如果是來自於境外高風險交易所這個業者也恐涉及申報虛假的資料然後沒有開立發票沒有按照實際的交易金額開立發票實際難以比對然後還有如果是大額交易通報的調閱只有匯款人的身分沒有以VASP公司為名的條件來調閱他們遇到這些困境主委要怎麼去處理"},{"start":606.949,"end":635.076,"text":"沒有 我想這個警政署應該是善意的提醒善意的提醒因為我看他寫遭遇的困境我想說那利用這個機會讓你回答一下能不能解決這個第一線的偵辦人員的困境仔細看一下我們條文草案裡面其實這些比如說第一項的資料保存我明明已經寫得非常清楚要保存五年而且如果說涉犯這個糾紛要持續的保存我想這個都沒有問題對 還有像比如說剛剛那個發票的部分那是財政部的事情"},{"start":635.916,"end":649.83,"text":"他要去做 他要去向大和申報那應該跟法務部調查局去做那我想這些部分 我覺得所以他遭遇的這六項困境都有辦法處理嗎可以處理 這些其實我們那規範裡面都有麻煩你給我一個書面資料好了好不好沒問題 這個其實規範裡面都有因為他們在現場 你沒有時間讓他們講"},{"start":655.296,"end":673.529,"text":"如果他們講 因為他們在第一線遭遇到這些問題我想他們是善意的提醒 其實這裡面都有因為我們在開會都有邀請各個單位一起所以是他們沒有進入情況嗎不是 他是善意的提醒 希望說未來能夠強化這些東西你把書面資料給我其實未來規範其實都有好 沒關係 先把這個書面資料給我好 謝謝主委 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝張偉霖接下來有請黃委員33直選"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時39分）謝謝主席，我們請彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。三商美邦人壽的招親案消息滿天飛，剛才很多委員也很關心，從10月27號的深夜開始，到28號的上午，11個小時內3家公司陸續發布重訊，市場也解讀說已經揭露了最終的結局。中信金的重訊是「投標案已結束」；玉山金跟三商壽強調「對市場傳聞不予評論」，請教一下主委，現在有關玉山金跟三商壽合併案的過程，你有了解嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想整個過程，我們站在金融主管機關的角色，當然是全程掌握，但是因為是個案，我們不方便透露其中的細節。"],["李委員坤城：所以你有全程掌握就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["李委員坤城：既然有全程掌握，我就再請教了。現在有兩個問題，其實剛剛也有很多委員在問，但我認為不管是主委、銀行局或證期局都沒有回答得很清楚。第一個，到底董事會有沒有授權議價投標？如果董事會有授權，那麼議價投標屬於重大轉投資決議，應依法公告；如果確定交易對象跟金額卻沒有公告，就違反重訊規範。第二個，董事會至今尚未召開，若出具據法律約束力的文件參與投標，則涉及公司治理正當性的問題。這兩個問題：一個是這屬不屬於重大訊息要發布？另外一個涉及公司治理的問題。請教主委，首先，這是否涉及重大訊息必須公布？後來是因為金管會去催他們，所以他們才發布重大訊息嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這件事金管會不會去催，因為這是他跟交易所之間的事情。交易所對於上市櫃公司會要求他們要資訊透明，裡面臚列非常非常多要件……"],["李委員坤城：所以是交易所去要求他們要發布重訊嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：外界所以會有這問題，主要是媒體報導以後，我們也請交易所去瞭解，而交易所也主動去對……"],["李委員坤城：所以是你們請交易所，交易所請他們。換言之，差不多就是你們要求的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這本來就是交易所應該做的，我們是交易所的主管機關，當然會請他們去做。而且我們也講了，請交易所要對外說明結果。"],["李委員坤城：所以這是不是屬於要發布的重大訊息，但他們沒有發布？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是否屬於重大訊息由他們來判斷，由交易所跟他們來做認定。比如說……"],["李委員坤城：主委認不認為這是重大訊息？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對這個情況，我不方便在這邊講……"],["李委員坤城：我們就按照相關規定來看，這是不是屬於重大的訊息？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對此，我確實沒有辦法站在金管會的立場去做說明，因為事實情況非常非常複雜……"],["李委員坤城：你也是監理機關啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，我沒有參與他們的協商，我也沒有參與內容及整個過程。我們的想法其實很簡單，這個合併案前面有非常……"],["李委員坤城：這個合併案是不是屬於51種上市公司必須公告的事項？"],["彭主任委員金隆：裡面有一項提及會有影響什麼什麼的情況……"],["李委員坤城：對上市公司之股東權益或證券價格有重大影響，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這牽涉到當時的判斷，我想有關重訊發布……"],["李委員坤城：主委也應該認為有影響，才會叫證交所去……"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為已經有媒體報導了，市場也這樣傳言，我們基於主管機關的立場告訴交易所，而交易所是主政單位，當然要去處理，這點當然是這樣。我剛才也對幾位委員說過……"],["李委員坤城：召開記者會時證期局副局長說，這東西有爭議性，證交所就會去查證。目前有查證嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["李委員坤城：查證結果是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我剛才講了，交易所查證完會對外說明。"],["李委員坤城：到現在已經三天時間了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會再請交易所儘快查明。"],["李委員坤城：這要查多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會請交易所儘快去做這件事。"],["李委員坤城：我說已經三天了！金管會作為監理機關，你認為幾天查出來是合乎規定的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：交易所在處理這類事情上已經非常非常有經驗……"],["李委員坤城：對，就像你講的，其實規定都很清楚，該不該發布重大訊息也都有規範。但是三天時間你們查不出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是我們查，是交易所，剛剛跟委員報告過了。"],["李委員坤城：證期局局長有去查嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：一樣，我們剛剛已經講過，而且交易所應該有請他們出來自清……"],["李委員坤城：我請張局長回答，有去查嗎？"],["張局長振山：正在查核中。"],["李委員坤城：還在查核中？哪時候會有結果？"],["張局長振山：等看到事實結果才能夠判斷。"],["李委員坤城：什麼？"],["張局長振山：有結果才能夠判斷。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道。我的意思是說你們需要多久時間？"],["張局長振山：只要依照一般程序，我們就會進行處理。"],["李委員坤城：一般程序大概是幾天？"],["張局長振山：應該在一週內，看他們查的結果……"],["李委員坤城：一週內？好。我再問一下主委，外界形容這是摸黑交易……"],["彭主任委員金隆：標題是媒體下的。"],["李委員坤城：對，但你是監理機關，你要做說明，到底這個binding offer有沒有經過董事會授權？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在整個交易過程當中有各種不同的授權型態，如果他們是一間上市櫃公司，就應該按照規定辦理，該怎麼對外說明就按照規定說明。"],["李委員坤城：剛剛主委一直強調，他們都知道公司治理的相關規定，但如果大家都知道，也有遵守的話，金管會也不用那麼辛苦了！金管會的存在就是對於公司治理有問題的地方要提出監管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不會在一件事情尚未完全釐清的情況下，就在這邊先下結論。所以我剛剛講過，我們尊重他的體制，況且重訊的發布是上市櫃公司與交易所之間……"],["李委員坤城：不是只有重訊的發布，重訊發布是另外一個問題。到底這個binding offer的提出，有沒有經過董事會的決議或同意？我想問的是這件事情，因為這涉及公司治理的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們在協商過程當中，不需要跟主管機關說明這些事情。但未來如果正式要送件，他們就要仔細說明整個程序是符合的，這時候他們就要自己說明這些內容……"],["李委員坤城：所以他們送過來時你們就會去檢查……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這整個程序……"],["李委員坤城：當初的這段過程到底有沒有經過董事會的決議就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們所有文件都應該要符合我們的規定，按照媒體報導，將依照金控法第二十六條所規定的文件來送件，這些過去都非常有經驗。"],["李委員坤城：如果玉山金沒有舉行董事會，但相關人員卻提交具備法律約束力的交易價格跟換股比例，且最後完成收購，也把這些資料送到金管會，這樣有符合相關規定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會的要求就是根據金控法，假設是根據第二十六條必須由董事會作成決議，再經過股東大會決議，雙方做成股份轉換契約書，再檢送相關書件送金管會審查。"],["李委員坤城：如果沒有經過董事會決議呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是必要的程序，法條寫得非常清楚。"],["李委員坤城：如果沒有開過董事會，就自行提交這些具有法律約束力的交易價格……"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，那是向金管會送件的要求，而前面是他們的協商程序。"],["李委員坤城：當然，我的意思就是，如果沒有經過董事會決議，這樣的程序還符合你們的標準嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講了，前面的部分是他們的協商，但最後送過來時必須明確完成公司治理的程序及法規所要求的程序。"],["李委員坤城：有媒體形容這一段沒有經過董事會決議是摸黑交易，主委怎麼評論？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這應該由他們自己去澄清，這是他們自己……因為實際上……"],["李委員坤城：這也不是要他們自己去澄清，作為監理機關，你也有資格去要求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們沒有立場幫他代答這問題。"],["李委員坤城：不是代答問題，我要求的是市場秩序、公司管理的問題！"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果以後他的這些程序不完備，當然不能送件，即使送件了，我們也會提出質疑。"],["李委員坤城：好。今天的書面報告包含內政部警政署在內，主委有看過嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["李委員坤城：有？有看過？警政署刑事警察局提到面臨很多困境，這些困境一共有六點，其中，金管會公布已經不得提供虛擬資產服務的……即原來沒有合於洗錢防治法規範的這些業者，但他們後續的相關資料並沒有規範要保存，此舉恐將成為偵辦的斷點。金管會也要求VASP要定期通報使用的錢包地址，但是不肖業者沒有如實申報，警察機關也沒有VASP所屬錢包的地址資料，即使要追查不法金流，也不知道向哪一家業者調閱資料。若是來自境外高風險交易所，業者恐涉及申報虛假資料，且沒有按照實際的交易金額開立發票，實際上難以比對。如果是大額交易的通報調閱，只有匯款人的身分，沒有以VASP公司為名的條件可以調閱。對於警方所遇到的困境，主委要怎麼去處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這應該是警政署善意的提醒……"],["李委員坤城：善意的提醒？我看他寫的是遭遇的困境，所以想利用機會讓你回答一下，看能不能解決第一線偵辦人員的困境？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請委員仔細看一下我們的條文草案，比如第一項的資料保存，我們明明已經寫得非常清楚要保存5年，若涉犯糾紛則需持續保存，所以我想都沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：都沒有問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。比如說剛才講的發票部分則是財政部的事情，他要去做，應該要大額申報，而且應該跟法務部調查局去做。我想這些部分我們跟警政署可以……"],["李委員坤城：所以警方所遭遇的六項困境都有辦法處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以處理，這些其實在我們的規範裡面都有。"],["李委員坤城：那麻煩你給我一個書面資料好了，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，這個其實在我們的規範裡面都有。"],["李委員坤城：其實他們都有在現場，但現在沒有時間讓他們講，因為他們都在第一線，如果遭遇到這些問題……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想他們是善意的提醒，其實這裡面都有啦，因為我們在開會時都有邀請各個單位一起討論。"],["李委員坤城：所以是他們沒有進入狀況嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是！他是善意的提醒，我剛才說過，我希望未來能夠強化這些東西。"],["李委員坤城：好，善意的提醒！請你把書面資料給我。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實未來規範裡面都有啦。"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係，先把這個書面資料給我，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝主委、謝謝召委。","接下來有請黃委員珊珊質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00c7647aaa5dbc8fd4f253141cf72ece13935765bd47f546519958b8a00feea6e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:32:20 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我們先請林佳龍 林部長來 部長請"},{"start":13.283,"end":41.265,"text":"部長好我想今天大家都關注的是川習會的會面在我們開會的與此同時川普跟習近平也已經有公開的會面然後也在幕僚的陪伴之下有了一個基本的對話當然記者的這些喊話他們都是講說彼此之間有很好的關係一直都有很好的關係然後大概就是簡單的問候"},{"start":43.686,"end":70.659,"text":"但是有幾件事情想要跟您詢問因為今天的新聞有一些消息人士表示我相信這個消息人士可能都是在美國這邊行走的記者他們的說法可能會對 可能不會對我沒有辦法把握但是我們還是得來詢問我們的外交部林部長對消息人士他們所說的一些回應"},{"start":71.599,"end":88.227,"text":"那麼呢可能這個我沒有自己的想法我沒有說這個消息人士講一定是對的因為他沒有具名但是在這麼關鍵的時刻我想我還是得提出來那這個是在CNN他的這個報導裡面呢他就講到就是說呢"},{"start":88.667,"end":110.632,"text":"尽管美方的资深官员相信川普不会在会谈当中被破表态反对台湾独立但是川普拒绝排除台湾可能被牵扯进美中贸易谈判的可能性台北方面正担心美方的支持是否动摇这是第一点我先把这个问题都讲完一次再请您回复"},{"start":111.272,"end":133.439,"text":"那呢這個所謂消息人士表示台灣正積極重新評估如何爭取川普政府站在自己這一方那面對的這個美中的雙重壓力那賴總統這個承諾包含是國防支出等等喔那可能不會成為頭條新聞但是會影響美台的關係那其中一個我覺得比較需要請教您的就是"},{"start":134.059,"end":154.82,"text":"其中一項考量是 召回現任駐美代表余大雷改派一位更具有政治手腕的外交官部分川普官員私下表示雖然余大雷獲得部分的白宮人士支持但是這位職業外交官欠缺於川普圈子有效互動的政治能量"},{"start":155.541,"end":175.518,"text":"那我想要先請這個部長幫我們說明一下有關於CNN剛剛的這個報導還有呢這個台美之間的關係在川習會的這個互動之後我們的掌握是如何那進一步的是跟您比較更有關係的就是說我們的駐美大使駐美代表會不會更換人選"},{"start":177.333,"end":202.866,"text":"包括委員台美政府之間的溝通管道很暢通而且也很順利在進行因為針對最近這幾件包括APEC或川習會等至於說委員提到的我們駐美的人士我們並沒有啟動任何要調整的程序目前因為美術的功能也發揮得很好"},{"start":204.48,"end":217.183,"text":"好所以我們沒有打算要這個召回駐美代表于大雷大使沒有目前沒有好那好謝謝那這個部長可以先請回我先請一下這個陸委會跟經濟部好"},{"start":226.119,"end":250.772,"text":"那這個兩位好那這個最近很多人關心有關於先前卓榮泰院長在大院的這個這個質詢備詢的過程當中那有談到這個我們先請教經濟部有談到就是呢淘寶跟拼多多兩個平台這個電商平台如果沒有進到台灣這個落地公司的話要取消要取消他們的這個平台"},{"start":251.292,"end":271.189,"text":"那請問一下經濟部這邊昨天呢就有提到就是說呢我們沒有電商的這個相關的這個選項那我想問一下在這種情況之下依照院長的只是多久會做出那撤銷淘寶以及拼多多在台灣的這個電商平台的APP的決定"},{"start":273.286,"end":296.832,"text":"委員好 那針對這個部分我們國際貿易署主要是在跨境這個部分加強跟海關那邊在加強查緝的這個部分沒有 我們要問查緝的事情這個是另外一個問題我問的是 院長所說的要下架淘寶跟拼多多如果他們沒有在期限之內在台灣落地那這個期限是多久"},{"start":297.452,"end":320.392,"text":"然後呢什麼時候如果沒有完成你們要把淘寶跟拼多多平台關掉有沒有按照院長的指示再進行報告委員我們這個部分我們會吸回再跟我們部內的相關的單位來做所以我們的行政院長卓榮泰在備詢之後沒有跟你們再進一步提到這件事情沒有再進一步的做要求沒有進一步的再提供時間點"},{"start":322.923,"end":347.544,"text":"這個部分我在跟我們部裡面的相關單位在做進一步的確認好 所以就是沒有打算要回我就對了還是你不知道不知道就說不知道這個部分我沒有掌握好 不知道就算了那我們問一下陸委會就是呢 關於這個淘寶跟拼多多這些電商平台那呢 現在就被認為說呢這個如果沒有落地的話然後要請他們離開我想要問一下這個陸委會對這個事情的態度是什麼呀"},{"start":348.537,"end":373.14,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們有兩個重要的原則第一個現在境外的這個豬肉包含中國大陸在內我們還是不允許絕對不會允許任何形式的這個進口誰說允許啦對所以我是跟委員報告我們對這個原則沒有人說允許那你報告這要幹嘛那請問你可以在淘寶我問嘛你可以在淘寶跟拼多多上面買到豬肉製品然後寄到台灣嗎臨時陸委恢復主委應該清楚吧"},{"start":373.817,"end":402.717,"text":"可以嗎至少我個人是沒有這樣的經驗不是你個人的問題啊是你們有沒有去研究可不可以的問題啊是不可以的對嘛是不可以那不可以就不可以嘛不可以的話那就沒有辦法進來嘛沒有辦法進來的話查驗也不是你陸委會的事情也是人家這個EZ位的事嘛那請問一下我問的問題是陸委會對於這些電商平台若沒有進到台灣做公司的話那就要被取消電商平台這件事情陸委會的看法是什麼"},{"start":403.308,"end":409.832,"text":"我們會跟那個速發部經濟部進一步的去研擬相關的法令規定所以你們是朝向院長所說的方向就是可能要把這兩個雙平台關掉是這個意思嗎大的方針來講是這樣但細密還是要研擬那另外您剛剛講到說最近這個有一些什麼投書啊什麼異常帳號啊然後什麼認知作戰我想問一下您自己是學者出身的您覺得"},{"start":427.724,"end":435.791,"text":"這個美國智庫蘭德公司他有特定的比較親中的政黨政治傾向或者是這個類似這樣的情況嗎美國的蘭德公司"},{"start":438.638,"end":467.898,"text":"其實個別的智庫或者是個別的學者他們的立場我們是不予評論啦你不予評論那剛剛又說這個投書到這個時代雜誌的然後呢就人家就親中那有的人你就可以評論有的人就不能評論那就是說講賴清德不好的就要可以評論沒有特別去提到就不能評論是這樣嗎有的問題是說你作為一個過去是學者你應該知道蘭德公司這家智庫是相當悠久的那我問你他對於所謂的中國大陸他有沒有特別親中的情況"},{"start":468.938,"end":491.309,"text":"那你不會不了解吧你的看法是什麼陸委會的見解是什麼其實以智庫本身或者是以特定學者本身他們的立場當然都有可能會隨著時局的變化有一些調整所以委員您剛所提到的那您提的應該不會是他們發布的這個報告上面會有這個認知作戰的這個問題或者是說他們是因為現在這個川習會之前所以刻意的透過這些報導報告然後再來影響這個台灣或者是台灣的民眾吧"},{"start":497.532,"end":509.976,"text":"上面有三位這個政治科學家也是學者的名字喔您可以看一下如果您覺得哪一位是您想要評論說他是親中的所以他講的這個話不實在請現在就告訴我上面有名字您看一下投影片有嗎你看啊"},{"start":517.307,"end":533.128,"text":"OK 這個其實我還是要再次的強調啦我們不對特定的美國的學者跟智庫有啊 你剛剛就已經對特定的智庫跟學者你已經發表了一些了呀我可以發言一下嗎你已經一直在發言我並沒有阻擋的發言啊好 謝謝喔那可以讓我稍微說明一下下"},{"start":533.809,"end":547.321,"text":"那我們的意思是說美國的智庫或美國的學者發表他們的看法然後有可能會被異常的帳號我剛回覆的是這一塊我回覆的主要的重點是在於會被特定的帳號渲染並且過度的延伸的解釋怎麼樣叫做過度的延伸解釋啊"},{"start":550.484,"end":571.715,"text":"那人家就是有如果說這個智庫的學者就是有投書到時代雜誌然後他就是有說賴清的總統是regulus然後有人去把這樣子的一個新聞甚至一開始是中央社寫的然後呢去轉貼了這個中央社的報導之後就被你們說成是好像呢這個是是這個異常賬號等等的這個我覺得不實際啊我今天要討論的是蘭德公司的這篇新聞啊"},{"start":572.515,"end":587.186,"text":"就是這個報告那裡面他提到的這幾個我覺得比較嚴重的部分在於說他談到了他們的建議是這邊英文中文我都把它拉出來避免你沒有說什麼斷章取義之類的沒有"},{"start":588.307,"end":616.528,"text":"他講說呢美國跟中國應該要建立一個互信的訊號那主要他提到具體案例是美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸永久分離也不反對和平統一中國可以重申和平統一是首選途徑闡述可行且具說服力的實際方式並明確表示動武警在反分裂國家法所規定的最極端情況下才會被視為選項請問一下陸委會對於蘭德公司這樣子的一個建議"},{"start":617.188,"end":639.278,"text":"你們的態度是站在肯定的角色還是你覺得跟你們現狀希望推進的方向是不一樣的我們陸委會還是主張中華民國的主權不是拿來被交易的並且中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬也是客觀事實所以關於蘭德公司或者是任何的智庫任何的學者發表的言論對於美國方面的建議我們都予以尊重那我們也會予以平息"},{"start":640.014,"end":659.601,"text":"你予以尊重歸予以尊重啊那人家的說法跟你我現在問的是說他現在的這樣子的一個對美的建議的說法跟目前我們陸委會好我們的這個對美台包含是台灣自己本身的方向是一致的還是不一致的我沒有叫你評論是個人他"},{"start":661.262,"end":677.757,"text":"就是方向是否一致嘛就是我們現在台灣 立委會這邊是否認為美國聲明不支持台灣獨立不尋求兩岸選友分離然後不反對和平統一以及中國大陸他可以做這些說法還有下一頁對不起 主席給我一點點時間把它講完不然等一下說我們只講一半"},{"start":680.419,"end":696.701,"text":"那它裡面喔 這都是關於八頁吧 七頁左右提到跟台灣有關的更大膽的選項 美國呢 因為它有這個提供我們軍事支持所以呢 它這個可以有一定的影響力限制以及可能破壞美國主張的現狀的行為"},{"start":697.802,"end":720.542,"text":"我要問的事情不是說你對這篇報告的評論我要問的問題是我們現在陸委會的整體對兩岸之間的方向跟這篇文章提到的方向是一致的或是不一致的有部分的內容是一致的 堅持和平的這一塊那哪一部分是不一致的可以再回到前一頁嗎"},{"start":723.636,"end":751.679,"text":"比如說就是美國聲明他不支持台灣獨立這個部分我們就只能予以尊重但是不見得是我們國會的主張那這個一不反對和平同意呢這也是一樣就是說這個我們尊重所以你講清楚嘛你要不要一次把它講完就是說哪一些你們是尊重但是不同意不見得是一樣的方向我這樣講比較柔性那哪一些是你們本身就覺得我們這政策上面跟他的建議主張是一樣的方向"},{"start":752.253,"end":775.484,"text":"因為這有一些是假設性問題啦就是說兩岸是不是永久分離喔或者說統一的這個方式用和平的方式還是用其他的方式所以這裡面對於陸委會來講的話那我們對於是不是要永久分離來說這不是我們現在政策要討論的這個主軸那維持現狀還有中華民國 中華人民共和國互不隸屬這才是我們目前陸委會在兩岸政策上面的一個基調好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員各位請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時32分）謝謝主席，我們先請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天大家都關注的是川習會，在我們開會的同時，川普跟習近平也已經有公開的會面，也在幕僚的陪伴之下有了一個基本的對話。當然，對於記者的喊話，他們都說彼此之間一直都有很好的關係，大概就是簡單的問候，但是我有幾件事情想要跟您詢問，因為今天的新聞指出，有一些消息人士表示……我相信這個消息人士可能都是在美國這邊行走的記者，他們的說法可能會對，可能不會對，我沒有把握，但是我們還是得來詢問外交部林部長對這個消息人士所說的回應。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：可能我們有自己的想法。我沒有說這個消息人士講的一定是對的，因為他沒有具名，但是在這麼關鍵的時刻，我想我還是得提出來。這個是CNN的報導，裡面就講到儘管美方的資深官員相信，川普不會在會談當中被迫表態反對台灣獨立，但是川普拒絕排除台灣可能被牽扯進美中貿易談判的可能性，台北方面正擔心美方的支持是否動搖，這是第一點。我先把問題都講完，再請您一次回復。","這個消息人士表示，台灣正積極重新評估如何爭取川普政府站在自己這一方，面對美中的雙重壓力，賴總統承諾包含國防支出等等，可能不會成為頭條新聞，但是會影響美台的關係。其中一個我覺得比較需要請教您的，就是其中一項考量是召回現任駐美代表俞大㵢，改派一位更具有政治手腕的外交官。部分川普官員私下表示，雖然俞大㵢獲得部分的白宮人士支持，但是這位職業外交官欠缺與川普圈子有效互動的政治能量。","我想要先請部長幫我們說明一下，有關於CNN剛剛的這個報導，還有台美之間的關係在川習會的互動之後，我們的掌握是如何？進一步跟您更有關係的就是我們的駐美代表會不會更換人選？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，台美政府之間的溝通管道很暢通，而且也很順利在進行，針對最近這幾件包括APEC或川習會等。至於委員提到我們駐美的人事，我們並沒有啟動任何要調整的程序，目前美處的功能也發揮得很好。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，所以我們沒有打算要召回駐美代表俞大㵢大使？"],["林部長佳龍：目前沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝，部長可以先請回。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：我先請一下陸委會及經濟部。兩位好。最近很多人關心有關於先前卓榮泰院長在大院備詢的過程當中都有談到……我們先請教經濟部，有談到淘寶跟拼多多兩個電商平台如果沒有進到台灣落地公司的話，要取消他們的平台。請問一下，經濟部昨天有提到我們沒有電商相關的選項，我想問一下，在這種情況之下，依照院長的指示，多久會作出撤銷淘寶及拼多多在台灣電商平台app的決定？"],["劉署長威廉：委員好。針對這個部分，我們國際貿易署主要是在跨境的部分跟海關加強查緝。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有問查緝的事情，這個是另外一個問題，我問的是院長所說的要下架淘寶跟拼多多，如果他們沒有在期限之內在台灣落地，這個期限是多久？什麼時候如果沒有完成，你們要把淘寶跟拼多多平台關掉？有沒有按照院長的指示在進行？"],["劉署長威廉：報告委員，這個部分我們會攜回再跟部內相關的單位做進一步的討論。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以行政院卓榮泰院長在備詢之後，沒有跟你們再進一步提到這件事情，沒有再進一步做要求，沒有進一步提供時間點？"],["劉署長威廉：這個部分我再跟部裡面相關單位做進一步的確認。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以就是沒有打算要回我就對了？還是你不知道？不知道就說不知道。"],["劉署長威廉：這個部分我沒有掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：不知道就算了。我們問一下陸委會，關於淘寶跟拼多多這些電商平台，現在認為他們如果沒有落地的話，要請他們離開，我想要問一下陸委會對這件事情的態度是什麼？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。我們有兩個重要的原則：第一個，現在境外的豬肉，包含中國大陸在內，我們還是絕對不會允許任何形式的進口……"],["徐委員巧芯：誰說允許了？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，所以我是跟委員報告我們的原則……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有人說允許，你報告這個要幹嘛？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問，你可以在淘寶……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：沒有，因為委員還是問我……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問嘛！你可以在淘寶跟拼多多上買到豬肉製品，然後寄到台灣嗎？您是陸委會副主委，應該清楚吧，可以嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：至少我個人是沒有這樣的經驗。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是你個人的問題，是你們有沒有去研究可不可以的問題。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是不可以的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，是不可以的，不可以就不可以，不可以的話就沒有辦法進來，沒有辦法進來的話，查驗也不是你陸委會的事情，也是人家EZ WAY的事。請問一下，我問的問題是，陸委會對於這些電商平台若沒有進到台灣做公司的話，就要被取消電商平台，就這件事情，陸委會的看法是什麼？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們會跟數發部、經濟部進一步去研擬相關的法令規定，就陸委會……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以你們是朝向院長所說的方向，就是可能要把這兩個、雙平台關掉，是這個意思嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：大的方針來講是這樣，但細部還是要研擬。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，我知道了。另外，您剛剛講到最近有一些什麼投書、什麼異常帳號、什麼認知作戰，我想問一下，您自己是學者出身的……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：您覺得美國智庫蘭德公司有特定比較親中的政治傾向或者是類似這樣的情況嗎？美國的蘭德公司。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：其實個別的智庫或者是個別的學者他們的立場，我們是不予評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不予評論，那剛剛又說投書到時代雜誌的，然後人家就親中，有的人你就可以評論，有的人就不能評論，那就是說講賴清德不好的就可以評論，沒有特別去提到就不能評論，是這樣嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：當然不是啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我的問題是，你過去是學者，你應該知道蘭德公司這家智庫是相當悠久的，那它對於所謂的中國大陸有沒有特別親中的情況？你不會不了解吧？你的看法是什麼？陸委會的見解是什麼？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：其實以智庫本身或特定學者本身來講，他們的立場當然有可能會隨著時局的變化而有一些調整，所以委員剛剛所提到的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那您提的應該不會是他們發布的這個報告上面會有認知作戰的這個問題，或是他們是因為在川習會之前所以刻意透過這些報告來影響台灣或台灣的民眾吧？這上面有三位政治科學家也是學者的名字，您可以看一下，如果您覺得有哪一位是您想要評論說他是親中的，所以他講的這個話不實在，請現在就告訴我，您看一下投影片，在上面有名字，有看到嗎？你看啊！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：OK，其實我還是要再次地強調，我們不對特定的美國學者跟智庫他們的立場……"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊！你剛剛就已經對特定的智庫跟學者發表你的意見了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員，我可以發言一下嗎？我可以發言一下嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：你已經一直在發言，我並沒有阻擋你的發言啊！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好，謝謝，那可以讓我稍微說明一下，我們的意思是說，美國的智庫或美國的學者發表他們的看法，然後有可能會被異常的帳號……我剛剛回復的是這一塊，我回復的主要重點是在於會被特定的帳號渲染，並且過度地延伸解釋……"],["徐委員巧芯：怎麼樣叫做過度地延伸解釋啊？如果這個智庫的學者就是有投書到時代雜誌，然後他就是有說賴清德總統是reckless，甚至一開始是中央社寫了這樣子的一個新聞，然後有人去轉貼了這個中央社的報導之後，就被你們說成好像是異常帳號等等，我覺得這個不實際啊！我今天要討論的是蘭德公司的這個報告，我覺得在裡面提到了幾個比較嚴重的部分，就是他們提出建議，我這邊把英文、中文都秀出來，以避免你們又說什麼斷章取義之類的，並沒有這樣。他說美國跟中國應該要建立一套互信的訊號，主要提到的具體例子包括美國聲明不支持台灣獨立、不尋求兩岸永久分離、亦不反對和平統一。中國可以重申和平統一是首選途徑，闡述可行且具說服力的實現方式，並明確表示動武僅在反分裂國家法所規定的最極端情況下才會被視為選項。我想請問陸委會，對於蘭德公司這樣子的建議，你們的態度是站在肯定的立場還是你覺得跟你們現在希望推進的方向是不一樣的？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們陸委會還是主張中華民國的主權不是拿來被交易的，並且中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬也是客觀事實，所以關於蘭德公司或者是任何智庫、任何學者所發表的言論，對於美國方面的建議，我們都予以尊重，那我們也會予以評析。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說予以尊重歸予以尊重啊！那我現在要問的是，他現在這樣對美建議的說法，跟目前陸委會對美臺之間包含台灣自己本身的方向是一致的還是不一致的？我並沒有叫你評論這個人，我是問方向是否一致，就是現在我們台灣陸委會這邊是否認為美國聲明不支持台灣獨立、不尋求兩岸永久分離亦不反對和平統一以及中國大陸可以做這些的說法。對不起，請主席再給我一點時間講完，不然人家會說我只講了一半。在這裡面有七、八頁左右是提到跟台灣有關的部分，包括更大膽的選項，美國因為有提供我們軍事支持，所以可以有一定的影響力，限制及可能破壞美國所主張維持現狀的行為。我要問的不是你對這個報告的評論，我要問的問題是現在陸委會對兩岸之間的整體方向跟這篇文章所提到的方向是一致的抑或是不一致的？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有部分的內容是一致的。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪個部分？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：就是堅持和平的這一塊。"],["徐委員巧芯：堅持和平的這一塊？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一部分是不一致的？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可以再回到前一頁嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：可以。"],["主席：請簡要。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。譬如說，美國聲明不支持台灣獨立，對這個部分我們就只能予以尊重，但是這不見得是我們陸委會的主張。"],["徐委員巧芯：那「亦不反對和平統一」呢？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：這也是一樣，就是說我們尊重……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你講清楚嘛！你要不要一次把它講完？就是哪一些你們是尊重但是不同意，不見得是一樣的方向，我這樣講是比較柔性，有哪一些是你們本身就覺得我們在政策上面跟他的建議、主張是一樣的方向？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：因為有一些是假設性的問題，就是兩岸是不是永久分離或統一的方式是用和平的方式還是用其他的方式，所以對於陸委會來講，是不是要永久分離並不是我們現在政策要討論的主軸，維持現狀還有中華民國、中華人民共和國互不隸屬才是目前我們陸委會在兩岸政策上面的一個基調。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，各位請回。","好，接下來進行詢答的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0047e51c7bebe4b0068220506846d94b49935765bd47f546517dadbe29f35ae1a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:31:30 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剛剛其實也有多位委員關心這個問題我剛才已經說明過他們在議價協商的過程當中其實像金管會最後是因為等到他們完成他的法律程序送件以後才能確定他的內容至於說他們市場上有關重訊該不該發 怎麼發這件事情我們已經責成交易所那是交易所跟他之間那金管會你容許這樣子的公司的治理行為嗎"},{"start":81.798,"end":93.737,"text":"公司治理他們都知道我們也對外說明了他們這些東西他們都有自己專業的判斷如果他真的不符規定該怎麼辦就怎麼辦我想我們在前天的記者會我們的同仁也跟對外說明了"},{"start":94.298,"end":112.266,"text":"好 那我再請教現在最熱門的虛擬貨幣就是穩定幣這個不僅是美國現在各國都搶著要發行穩定幣主要就是要穩定國內貨幣主權台灣也不例外部分經濟學者對穩定幣的風險提出警告"},{"start":114.067,"end":129.684,"text":"2014年諾貝爾經濟學得主June Trow他撰文指出說穩定幣可能在金融壓力下會出現擠兌風險那他的安全性不應該被高估他並且批評美國對於儲備兌付與風險控管條文"},{"start":135.53,"end":154.476,"text":"不明確讓發行機構且這個發行機構缺乏銀行等級的一個資本跟流動性的要求所以恐怕會成為影子銀行體系的一環那經認為說支付系統應該由公共基礎設施主導穩定幣或許是"},{"start":155.296,"end":165.906,"text":"金融創新的代表但他們可能會讓少數人致富卻讓整個金融體系承擔風險請問主委你對於學者的這段說話你有什麼看法"},{"start":166.414,"end":195.112,"text":"對於一個新興的這些的業務或是這樣的發展一定有很多不同的觀點我想這也是為什麼就是說最近很多的因為這個存在不是今天才存在但是為什麼各國政府在這時候要透過立法來做這件事情因為剛剛提到過去是草莽發展的過程當中確實有像剛剛委員提到開始有一家銀行因為他儲備都在那邊發生擠兌的時候他這個就影響到他的那個所謂資產儲備的安全性那因為過去沒有監管所以大家也看到這個這個概念當"},{"start":195.712,"end":216.691,"text":"市場使用的人已經這麼普遍的時候主管決定就應該站出來把這件事情把它規範化我想這也是解決這位他提的論點就是說風險一直存在但是我們要怎麼解決它所以主委這是一個很新的東西其實大多數人根本就不了解所以說這些金融體系可能面臨的風險之外同樣我更擔心的就是詐騙的問題"},{"start":218.052,"end":238.809,"text":"因為台灣已經變成詐騙天堂了對不對我們現在很多人都不敢接這個電話響起只要沒有顯示說是我的朋友或者是認識的人的話根本電話都不敢接那這種情況勢必會如果說穩定幣一推出那一定會有更多的詐團會藉由民眾不了解的這一段時間然後呢"},{"start":239.93,"end":257.767,"text":"來誘導他們進行這樣的投資就是假投資真詐騙那穩定幣極有可能會淪為洗錢詐騙工具之一所以未來台灣如果要發行穩定幣勢必要清楚的讓民眾知道什麼是穩定幣那它的功能是什麼還有它的使用方式是什麼這個宣導一定要做得夠清楚"},{"start":260.469,"end":278.647,"text":"這個部分所以主委再要請教主委你在跟央行合作的過程當中會針對穩定幣的一個準備資產管理資金流向還有返期前監管的方面提出更多的具體措施那當然剛剛委員提到一個就是說我們對於那個金融教育還好這還有一段"},{"start":279.508,"end":290.776,"text":"那個不算短的時間可以來做準備做這些比如說未來真的專法通過我們做一個金融教育市場宣導我們講這一定會來做剛才提到就是說跟央行之間針對穩定幣因為這個確實關於我們兩個單位的"},{"start":295.72,"end":320.437,"text":"那個執掌所以這部分我們大概都有充分的協調跟合作這應該未來監管應該也不會有問題因為我們在過去很多銀行的業務本來就跟央行都是共管共治我想這個大概都這個經驗大家都非常的順暢對啦 其實穩定幣放在這個虛擬資產專法對不對對這部分在針對主要是不必要的風險尤其是大片的風險這是我最關心的是不是 我們也很關心對對對"},{"start":321.758,"end":336.896,"text":"那在虛擬資產服務法草案的討論當中金管會如何平衡傳統金融業跟創新業者的角色並確保虛擬資產這個產業的多元發展跟競爭力可不可以請主委說明"},{"start":337.136,"end":366.356,"text":"所以我想這是一個也是一個大家要注意的問題就是說我們的銀行假設從它的歷史推演是非常非常久的歷史但是它整個過程當中它遇到非常非常多新的東西的衝擊比如說這是數位化的過程當中其實銀行也開始做轉型剛才講說其實未來假設我們的虛擬金融也出現的時候我們金融業也應該開始要去思考比如說我們最近在做個實驗就是請銀行來做虛擬資產的保管業務這是一個非常起始的動作"},{"start":367.376,"end":396.717,"text":"我未來如果要涉入這個不管你服務客戶也好或是你自行要參與要從保管來做這是最基本的再來就是我們也注意到說比如說我們在發行穩定幣的過程當中我們也讓銀行來參與還有就是我們在做這些RWA的部分的時候我們也是希望銀行來參與這件事情所以我們也是用漸進的方式也提醒我們銀行業者未來會怎麼樣大家都不知道但是一定要及早做準備那這樣的話才能因應否則等到整個環境變了你再突然來做我覺得那個成本高風險也更大"},{"start":397.202,"end":419.721,"text":"是的 所以我想這個創新跟這個傳統的部分他要如何讓他有發展力然後能夠平衡能夠有一個發展的空間這金管會要更加的著力確實那個人講這個非常重要因為其實整個金融體系這麼龐大那怎樣讓他能夠順利的因應各種的變化我想我們金管會一定會努力來做"},{"start":420.444,"end":443.453,"text":"那當然我們最在意就是說避免說未來市場上有持續更多持續更多的不法交易這部分就是我們要避免的那詐騙行為一定要嚴防好不好這次也是我們有個執法是專門針對這個對對對好了謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝副委員接下來有請李昭偉昆城委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":552,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時31分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。主委，玉山金併三商壽的併購案，金管會應該要明確的來審核，確保國內金融市場的穩定，同時也保障全體投資人的權益，這個你認同嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是法律上規定的，不管在金控法、保險法都有明確的規定。"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對，但是玉山金併三商壽受到市場矚目，也是實際影響股價的重大事件，針對市場上盛傳玉山金沒通過董事會的授權，就逕自去談一個讓股價價崩逾7%的價格，然後金管會說這是商業行為，要等到收件後才去了解……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，剛剛其實也有多位委員關心這個問題，我剛剛已經說明過，他們在議價協商的過程當中，其實金管會是最後要等到他們完成法律程序送件以後，才能確定它的內容。至於市場上有關重訊該不該發、怎麼發這件事情，我們已經責成交易所，那是交易所跟它之間……"],["顏委員寬恒：金管會容許這樣的公司治理行為嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，公司治理他們都知道，我們也對外說明了，這些東西他們都有自己專業的判斷，如果它真的不符規定，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，我想我們在前天的記者會，我們的同仁也已對外說明了。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我再請教，現在最熱門的虛擬貨幣就是穩定幣，不僅是美國，現在各國都搶著要發行穩定幣，目的就是要穩定國內貨幣主權，臺灣也不例外。但部分經濟學者對穩定幣的風險提出警告，2014年諾貝爾經濟學得主Jean Tirole撰文指出：穩定幣可能在金融壓力下出現擠兌風險，它的安全性不應該被高估，並且批評美國對於儲備兌付與風險控管條文不明確，且發行機構缺乏銀行等級的資本跟流動性的要求，所以恐怕會成為影子銀行體系的一環。他認為支付系統應該由公共基礎設施主導，穩定幣或許是金融創新的代表，但他們可能會讓少數人致富，卻讓整個金融體系承擔風險。請問主委，對於學者的這段話，你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於新興的這些業務或是這樣的發展，一定有很多不同的觀點，我想這也是為什麼最近很多的……因為這個不是今天才存在，但是為什麼各國政府要在這個時候透過立法來做這件事情？剛剛提到，過去草莽發展的過程當中，確實有像剛剛委員說的，開始有一家銀行，因為他儲備都在那邊，發生擠兌的時候，就會影響到所謂資產儲備的安全性，因為過去沒有監管，所以大家也看到這個概念，當市場使用的人已經這麼普遍的時候，主管機關就應該站出來，把這件事情規範化。我想這也是解決這位學者提的論點，即風險一直存在，但是我們要怎麼解決它？"],["顏委員寬恒：對，所以主委這是一個很新的東西，其實大多數人根本就不了解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以說這些金融體系可能會面臨風險之外，同樣我更擔心的就是詐騙的問題，因為臺灣已經變成詐騙天堂了，對不對？我們現在很多人在電話響起，只要沒有顯示是我的朋友或者是認識的人的話，根本電話都不敢接。在這種情況下，如果穩定幣一推出，勢必會有更多的詐團會藉由民眾不了解的這一段時間，來誘導他們進行投資，就是假投資、真詐騙，穩定幣極有可能會淪為洗錢詐騙工具之一，所以未來臺灣如果要發行穩定幣，勢必要清楚地讓民眾知道什麼是穩定幣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：它的功能是什麼？還有它的使用方式是什麼？這個宣導一定要做得夠清楚。另外請教主委，你在跟央行合作的過程當中，會針對穩定幣的準備資產管理、資金流向，還有反洗錢監管的方面，提出更多的具體措施嗎？會吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，剛剛委員提到一個，我們對於金融教育……還好還有一段不算短的時間，可以來做準備，比如說未來針對專法通過，我們做金融教育市場宣導，這個一定會來做。剛剛提到我們跟央行之間針對穩定幣，因為確實關於我們兩個單位的職掌，所以這部分我們大概都有充分的協調跟合作，應該未來監管也不會有問題，我們在過去很多銀行的業務，本來就跟央行都是共管共治，我想溝通經驗大家都是非常順暢。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，穩定幣放在虛擬資產專法嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：主要針對不必要的風險，尤其是詐騙的風險，這是我最關心的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們也很關心。"],["顏委員寬恒：對。在虛擬資產服務法草案的討論當中，金管會如何平衡傳統金融業跟創新業者的角色，並確保虛擬資產產業的多元發展跟競爭力，可不可以請主委說明？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這也是一個大家要注意的問題，假設我們銀行的歷史推演是非常非常久的歷史，但是整個過程當中，它遇到非常非常多新的東西的衝擊，比如說這次數位化的過程當中，其實銀行也開始做轉型。假設未來我們的虛擬金融也出現的時候，金融業也應該開始要去思考，我們最近在做一個實驗，就是請銀行來做虛擬資產的保管業務，這是一個非常起始的動作，未來如果要涉入這個，不管服務客戶也好，或是自行要參與，要從保管來做，這是最基本的。再來，我們也注意到，比如我們在發行穩定幣的過程當中，也讓銀行來參與，還有我們在做這些RWA的時候，也是希望銀行來參與這件事情。所以我們也是用漸進的方式，也提醒我們銀行業者，未來會怎麼樣大家都不知道，但是一定要及早做準備，這樣的話才能因應，否則等到整個環境變了，再突然來做，我覺得那個成本高且風險也更大。"],["顏委員寬恒：是的，所以我想創新跟傳統的部分，要如何讓它有發展力、能夠平衡、能夠有發展的空間，金管會要更加的著力……"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員講的這個確實非常重要，因為整個金融體系這麼龐大，怎樣讓它能夠順利的因應各種的變化，我想金管會一定會努力來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，我最在意的點是要避免未來市場上有持續更多的不法交易，這部分就是我們要避免的，並且針對詐騙行為一定要嚴防，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這次我們也有個子法是專門針對這個。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：謝謝主委，謝謝顏委員。","接下來有請李召委坤城質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00189e87a8a7b5d908f253141cf72ece13935765bd47f54651a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:21:42 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83,"text":"推動科技安全外交就是你是有實質內容的外交我是感到是非常的滿意我希望可以做更多這一次我們在訪問日本的時候基本上我們也都有特別提到這些相關的安全議題海底電纜的安全議題我也感受到我們駐日辦事處的同仁他們是用系統面就是說這些專業的外交官不是不僅僅是以個人因為個人是不可以大於系統的"},{"start":113.743,"end":140.557,"text":"所以包含這些專業的官僚跟專業的外交官基本上他們的這種網絡都非常的綿密那特別在這些相關的議題上面也有很好的掌握這一點我還是必須要特別的來表示這個相關的謝意那我今天想要請教的是在我們沒有辦法主辦類似像其實也不只是APEC那其實很多的重要的國際論壇那我們是要用什麼樣的方式把重要的議題"},{"start":142.197,"end":169.304,"text":"讓他們能夠在會議當中來去被引入進去部長可不可以簡單講一下報告委員 除了雙邊的交流合作我們在國際特別是多邊的機制上面比如我們有GCTF今年是第十年目前有五個完整的會員國就是全球合作訓練倡議這個是很好的平台 現在已經在全球"},{"start":170.064,"end":194.895,"text":"台灣美國那日本澳大利亞以外還去年加了加拿大那歐洲現在也有很多所謂的Franchise就是衍生的這個參與國家那剛剛講就是我們在倡議這個所謂的國際海難的風險管理這個議題就是類似因為台灣是本身也是受害者那我們又位居在印太第一島鏈其實最重要的通訊電"},{"start":197.396,"end":209.365,"text":"力傳輸啊都是很多是透過電纜所以這個都不是我們單獨的面對的挑戰而是區域性甚至全球性的一體特別是歐洲自從這個破落地海這個這邊從這幾年發生的被所謂暗傳破壞啦或所謂的這個"},{"start":217.591,"end":226.88,"text":"這種灰色地帶的侵擾越來越多所以跟我們可以說是同樣面對這樣的威脅那這些國家集合起來特別是透過國會議員尤其是歐洲議員他們也可以一起在他們的國家來做推動所以這個是我們找到的議題另外就是像災害的防救"},{"start":240.543,"end":246.667,"text":"我們在這方面包括我們的消防署所衍生的我們全社會防禦任性每個國家現在都遇到類似的問題特別是在我們這個第一島鏈那我們也用這樣的議題做平台去結合 那很多國家也通過了一些倡議 包括國會的決議所以我們這次提出所謂的四大這個目標風險降低 資訊共享 制度改革和知識建構"},{"start":270.863,"end":282.43,"text":"歐洲議會他們就是歐盟的執委會也有通過一個有關於海嵐的倡議那我們跟他對接然後一起來做跨區的合作跟推動"},{"start":284.497,"end":301.949,"text":"日本也是一個重點我們接下來談到日本剛好我們訪日的時候是川普總統他訪日本那也跟高市總理那有簽署協議來去反制中國系統的這個武器化跟他的這些特殊管制"},{"start":302.629,"end":323.012,"text":"那他們為了要打造相關的供應鏈民主供應鏈他們是聯手去補這個缺口鎖定的是磁鐵電池還有催化劇跟光學材料等衍生性的產品他是希望說打算動員政府與私部門的這個支持透過政策貿易來協同合作那這次訪日我們可以感受到整個日本的"},{"start":323.833,"end":342.229,"text":"对台湾的友善那特别是过去是以这个民主的价值但是现在不是只以民主的价值就如同我们刚才一直强调的他是以实质导向以经济导向贸易导向科技导向那也符合部长你讲的这个全方位对这种外交实质的外交"},{"start":343.03,"end":362.722,"text":"所以說我們必須要好好的利用這一個機會跟日本來確保說我們的供應鏈上面特別是在稀土遇到它可能的武器化的話我們是有機會來去參與它這樣子的合作架構剛才部長有提到的幾個合作框架下我是希望說我們能夠主動"},{"start":363.94,"end":383.414,"text":"主動主動跟日方來討論那既然有這個美日的框架那台灣的角色可以是什麼部長可不可以簡單來回應一下是陳委員所講因為台日其實臨接的國家那不只是在剛講通訊還有這個防災齁其實在能源上也是密切相關"},{"start":384.495,"end":401.261,"text":"所以我們像我們投資或採購在阿拉斯加的這個天然氣其實它不只是一個經濟議題它也是一個安全議題那我們台日之間很多這方面的合作的項目"},{"start":402.081,"end":428.756,"text":"透過不管是我們雙邊之間或多邊的來進行現在高市草苗首相他在先前就已經在自民黨內有很多的倡議現在他當首相當然我們也希望台日之間這個可以變成政府之間一起來推動包括去年石破茂首相到這個秘魯的APEC的時候跟我們領袖代表林信義這個執政也登對所謂的"},{"start":432.033,"end":460.035,"text":"災害的一個處理希望台日來合作我覺得這個確實是對雙方面都是有關那是互惠的這些議題我們找出來讓我們的總和外交不只是談這個理念相近的這些價值還是夠談到具體的安全還有經濟上面的這一些合作甚至是我們講全社會防禦任性的這個空間是非常的大"},{"start":461.365,"end":479.51,"text":"尤其是我們的無人機航太半導體產業它是高度依賴這些稀土的所以我想最近有南非的事件我們也可以理解到南非它自己也有類似半威脅的說法它是說它強調自己是重要稀有金屬的供應國"},{"start":480.43,"end":495.499,"text":"所以說他有意升級為高科技製造鏈的關鍵節點所以說我們雖然我們也是重要的這個關鍵國家之一但是提供這些物資資源的這些自然資源的這些國家有沒有可能"},{"start":496.415,"end":513.028,"text":"會跟中國來做一個協調那導致我們在供應鏈的地緣政治有風險這個部分我就簡單跟部長希望說跟經濟部一定要有一個跨部會的協調來去了解一下他們的政策動向我跟委員馬上補充一下在就是稀土議題"},{"start":514.529,"end":529.65,"text":"因為這涉及到所謂的供應的安全尤其是我們要打造非紅的民主供應鏈是一個信賴的供應鏈裡面在稀土上面我們也有我本身也有發言那就是除了"},{"start":531.592,"end":553.581,"text":"呼應這個川普政府的倡議這個進行稀土供應鏈的合作之外我們也在積極的參與希望台灣也能夠我想這個是助人也助己對我們在半導體供應鏈上面這個稀土的供給能夠有安全的供應鏈我們請副主委副主委謝謝 謝謝部長那麻煩副主委"},{"start":565.506,"end":565.526,"text":"委員長"},{"start":567.552,"end":596.191,"text":"針對中共的長臂管轄跟他的跨境鎮壓我簡單的要特別提醒一下這不僅僅是對我國的國會議員的這種侮辱但是我們還要注意一件事情就是說之前在白俄羅斯有逼客機迫降來去逮捕異議記者的事情我不知道你還有沒有印象原則上就是白俄羅斯他是在派他的這個他的空軍升空他迫使這個瑞恩航空的客機轉降到白俄首都"},{"start":596.951,"end":619.566,"text":"也就是說這樣子的可能性是有的所以說你必須要有一個風險的評估我們哪一些被點名的國會議員或者是重要的官員當他們出國的時候這個風險是有的那有沒有經過這些不友好國家甚至是有敵意國家的領空是不是會有類似這樣的狀況出現我是提醒因為已經發生過了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時21分）你好，我們請外交部部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今年舉行的APEC能源部長會議聯合聲明的時候，它已經明確的把海底電纜納入能源韌性的版圖裡面。當時的各個經濟體有特別強調，為了要加強電力系統的彈性、韌性跟穩定性，現代化的電網基礎設施包含儲能系統、微電網，還有海底電纜。你也在週二台歐海底電纜安全合作論壇上面，宣布啟動國際海底電纜風險管理倡議。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我要強調的是，從水下的設施到通訊、到電力、到油電管輸線，它是三大命脈：第一個是我們的資料，第二個是我們的電力，然後第三個就是我們資本運行的三大動脈，只要任何一處受損，就有可能會引發跨境型的斷線、斷電，也有可能會斷電。所以這一次APEC的能源韌性路線跟我國提出的這個倡議，其實是前後呼應、彼此加成，前者是設定區域層級的政策方向跟合作框架，後面我們是有實作面的風險緩解，包含情資共享、制度改革等等，所以我必須要特別對外交部推動科技安全外交，就是你是有實質內容的外交，我感到非常的滿意，我希望可以做更多。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一次我們在訪問日本的時候，基本上我們也都有特別提到這些相關的安全議題，海底電纜的安全議題，我也感受到我們駐日辦事處的同仁，他們是用系統面，就是說這些專業的外交官，不僅僅是以個人，因為個人是不可以大於系統的，所以包含這些專業的官僚跟專業的外交官，基本上他們的這種網絡都非常的綿密，特別在這些相關的議題上面也有很好的掌握，這一點我還是必須要特別來表示相關的謝意。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：我今天想要請教的是，在我們沒有辦法主辦類似像……其實也不只是APEC，很多重要的國際論壇，我們是要用什麼樣的方式把重要的議題，讓他們能夠在會議當中被引進去，部長可不可以簡單講一下？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，除了雙邊的交流合作，我們在國際，特別是多邊的機制上面，比如我們有GCTF，今年是第10年，目前有5個完整的會員國，就是全球合作訓練倡議，這個是很好的平台，現在已經在全球，台灣、美國、日本、澳大利亞以外，去年還加了加拿大，歐洲現在也有很多衍生的參與國家。剛剛講我們在倡議所謂國際海纜的風險管理這個議題，就是類似……因為台灣本身也是受害者，我們又位居在印太第一島鏈，其實最重要的通訊、電力傳輸很多都是透過電纜，所以這個都不是我們單獨面對的挑戰，而是區域性，甚至全球性的議題，特別是歐洲，波羅的海這幾年發生被暗船破壞，或所謂灰色地帶的侵擾越來越多，所以跟我們可以說是同樣面對這樣的威脅。這些國家集合起來，特別是透過國會議員，尤其是歐洲議員，他們也可以一起在他們的國家推動，這個是我們找到的議題。","另外就是像災害的防救，我們在這方面，包括我們的消防署所衍生全社會防禦韌性，每個國家現在都遇到類似的問題，特別是在我們的第一島鏈，我們也用這樣的議題做平台去結合，很多國家也通過了一些倡議，包括國會的決議，所以我們這次提出所謂的四大目標──風險降低、資訊共享、制度改革和知識建構，我們也是呼應歐洲，歐盟的執委會也有通過一個有關於海纜的倡議，我們跟它對接，然後一起來做跨區的合作跟推動。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常謝謝部長……"],["林部長佳龍：日本也是一個重點。"],["陳委員冠廷：日本也是重點，我們接下來談到日本，剛好我們訪日的時候川普總統也是訪日本，也跟高市總理簽署協議，反制中國稀土的武器化跟它的這些特殊管制。他們為了要打造相關的民主供應鏈，聯手去補這個缺口，鎖定的是磁鐵、電池，還有催化劑跟光學材料等衍生性的產品。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：他是打算動員政府與私部門的支持，透過政策、貿易協同合作。那這次訪日，我們可以感受到整個日本對台灣的友善，特別是過去是以民主的價值，但是現在不是只以民主的價值，就如同我們剛才一直強調的，它是以實質導向、以經濟導向、貿易導向、科技導向，那也符合部長講的全方位實質的外交，所以我們必須要好好的利用這個機會，跟日本確保我們的供應鏈上面，特別是在稀土，遇到它可能武器化的話，我們有機會參與它這樣子的合作架構。剛才部長提到的幾個合作框架下，我是希望我們能夠主動跟日方討論，既然有這個美日的框架，那台灣的角色可以是什麼，部長可不可以簡單回應一下？"],["林部長佳龍：是，誠如委員所講，因為台日其實是臨接的國家，不只是在剛剛講的通訊還有防災，其實在能源上也是密切相關，所以像我們投資或採購阿拉斯加的天然氣，它不只是一個經濟議題，它也是個安全議題。我們台日之間很多這方面的合作項目，透過不管是我們雙邊之間或多邊來進行。高市早苗首相先前在自民黨內就已經有很多的倡議，現在他當首相，當然我們也希望台日可以變成政府之間一起來推動，包括去年石破茂首相到秘魯APEC的時候，跟我們領袖代表林信義資政，也針對所謂的災害處理，希望台日來合作。我覺得這個確實對雙方面都是有關，是互惠的，這些議題我們找出來，讓我們的總合外交不只是談理念相近的這些價值，還能談到具體的安全，還有經濟上面的這一些合作，甚至是我們講全社會防禦韌性的空間非常的大。"],["陳委員冠廷：尤其我們的無人機、航太、半導體產業，它是高度依賴這些稀土的。最近有南非的事件，我們也可以理解到南非自己也有類似半威脅的說法，他強調自己是重要稀有金屬的供應國，所以他也有意升級為高科技製造鏈的關鍵節點。雖然我們也是重要的關鍵國家之一，但是提供這些物資、資源、自然資源的國家有沒有可能會跟中國做協調，導致我們在供應鏈的地緣政治上有風險？就這個部分，我就簡單跟部長說明，希望跟經濟部一定要有一個跨部會的協調機制去了解一下他們的政策動向。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員馬上補充一下，稀土議題涉及供應鏈安全，尤其是我們要打造的非紅民主供應鏈是一個信賴的供應鏈，在稀土上面，我本身也有發言，除了呼應川普政府的倡議，進行稀土供應鏈的合作之外，我們也積極地參與，希望台灣也能夠……我想這是助人也助己，對我們在半導體供應鏈上面稀土的供給能夠有安全的供應鏈。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：請陸委會副主委，謝謝部長，麻煩副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：副主委好。針對中共的長臂管轄及跨界鎮壓，我簡單地特別提醒一下，這不僅僅是對我國國會議員的污辱，但是我們還要注意一件事情，就是之前在白俄羅斯發生逼客機迫降來逮捕異議記者的事情，我不知道你還有沒有印象，白俄羅斯派空軍升空，迫使瑞恩航空（Ryanair）的客機轉降到白俄首都。也就是說，這樣的可能性是有的，所以我們必須要有風險的評估，當被點名的國會議員或者重要的官員出國的時候，這個風險是有的，包括經過不友好國家，甚至有敵意國家的領空時，是不是會有類似這樣的狀況出現？我是提醒，因為已經發生過了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好，是，非常謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。副主委有沒有要回答？沒有，好，請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00fc48426d3d50447955b9b7d9df2795fe935765bd47f5465111b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:14:22 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不是這個樣子好像很輕鬆怎麼會有 不同委員會 然後委員的槌尋差異對一個機場的把關差異這麼大那就是我們為政者回應的態度跟我們實際上的作為"},{"start":257.513,"end":280.8,"text":"農業部資料 114年對新的簡歷統計國外民眾攜帶肉製品 陽性率中國是13.1% 越南是8.8% 泰國4.2%這三國以陽性的比例最高的這三個國家其中中國的肉品對台灣簡直是叫做生化攻擊了這一場夾帶目前海關邊境有完整的攔截措施存在"},{"start":282.196,"end":307.054,"text":"目的指向就是大量這次的我特別排這一個專案就是說大量的通過電商平台通過網路直接在國外訂購肉製品直接輸台這個相關的報導也特別提到中華郵政處長中華郵政處長處長請出席一下曾接大量拼多多淘寶貨物台中郵取進口約50個貨櫃6萬多件高雄郵取進口約60個貨櫃9萬多件除了這兩個還有其他嗎"},{"start":314.921,"end":329.073,"text":"只有這兩個郵局還有其他 你可以補充資料嗎你的領執要翻好報告主席 目前只有從台中港跟高雄港進來就這兩個港嘛 對不對這兩個港 這樣數據正確嘛8月7日到現在 50個多貨櫃是在台中然後60個貨櫃是在高雄"},{"start":339.345,"end":360.823,"text":"兩個貨櫃加起來就十幾萬件 沒有錯吧是好 所以有郵政的局主管在透露啦 說近三個月來日夜加班啦 壓力非常重大然後大量的中國的貨櫃相關有肉類的香腸還有豬肉月餅 半島會怕優先成為非洲 這個豬防疫的破口有沒有這件事情"},{"start":362.506,"end":381.322,"text":"報告委員那基本上這個從海印海印快遞進口的這些郵包是以貨關進來是經過海印快遞通關那經過關路署以及防檢局的檢疫以後呢在通關一簽關以後才交給中華郵政來做這個遞送"},{"start":383.678,"end":391.222,"text":"是啦 所以意思是說我們中緯郵政基本上只要經過關路署 經過這個防疫署的這個檢疫完之後"},{"start":394.16,"end":420.104,"text":"S光機照過之後反正就是沒有所謂的違禁品中華郵政反正就只有寄送而已嘛接跟送而已嘛對不對 是不是這樣所以相關的檢驗的把關就是在我們公務署跟房間署嘛對不對 應該是這樣嘛 跟你中華郵政沒有關係嘛所以你現在跟我講說這個郵政主管透露這三個月來日夜加班所以來自中國大量貨櫃有肉類香腸含豬肉月餅 半道會泡是假的"},{"start":422.369,"end":440.39,"text":"你要回應我是這個是假的中緒郵政沒有這個主管這主管是虛設的這主管是自己跑出來的這主管是虛擬的這個同仁的反應那基本上我們這個檢疫的部分的確是經過X光"},{"start":441.485,"end":468.094,"text":"以及這個防檢署那當然我們現在因為這個配合這個海運快遞進來我們的同仁全力把這個整個貨件經過清關以後交運給中華郵政做這個避送所以反映的內容的真實性我們我在這邊沒有辦法去做回應跟查證那我先請處長看下一個照片好不好你看一下"},{"start":475.454,"end":484.22,"text":"這個就是選TW收貨地址下單可享滿49免預這TW是指什麼意思台幣是台幣嘛是台幣那滿那個好像那個電線桿下面有兩條幹那個是什麼"},{"start":504.803,"end":530.384,"text":"這個我不清楚你不清楚嗎你就是不清楚你今天打呼我才會很多事情不太清楚滿49免運就是滿人民幣那個是講幣值的代號就是人民幣選TWTW不是指台幣是選台灣收屋地址下單可享滿49人民幣免運"},{"start":533.669,"end":559.018,"text":"這是針對台灣的消費者的一個廣告嘛市長這樣清楚吧 這樣清楚你看他賣什麼東西你可以簡單從左邊講一項 從右邊講一項嗎右邊是這個水果跟水果類 左邊是肉類製品是 那我們先講右邊的水果類 這些可以銷入台灣嗎"},{"start":565.635,"end":592.244,"text":"X光機照到這些有直接處理掉沒有辦法透過這個進口的這是沒辦法經過進口嘛對不對那你中委郵政如果有接受這樣的貨品然後直接寄到這個收件人那中委郵政要負起什麼責任因為他是整個是在包裝經過這個驗官 清官以後我們沒有辦法對內容物做查證"},{"start":593.004,"end":619.955,"text":"所以你們不曉得你們在送什麼東西嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛所以右邊就這樣了嘛那左邊也是這樣嘛是不是這樣這個是貨運承攬業他進來以後呢必須這個清楚標示產地然後經過這個時間的關係啦我們沒有辦法再講下去我只是要跟你提醒啦齁這個賴處長你先到旁邊一下好不好謝謝 不好意思齁"},{"start":621.044,"end":641.06,"text":"所以你現在要否認我是說你們的郵政主管有在擔心搬運搬貨搬到怕搬到怕有非洲防疫的破口是假訊息就對了你要回答我是這樣嘛 是不是你記住喔 這現場都是有錄影錄音的喔要不要再肯定答無一下 不可能"},{"start":644.152,"end":671.832,"text":"這個整個辦運的這個工作可不可能嘛 你就簡單答覆我一句話就好嘛但是內部的這整個檢疫內 我們的確是沒有參與這些檢疫我在委員會 我很少在委員官員但是我是希望官員在答覆過程裡面還是要秉於良心 秉於專業 秉於真的實際上可能的狀況要把事情講清楚 對不對 好那你現在講的是沒有嘛 不可能發生啊所以這個郵政主管是假的啦 這是假訊息這是虛擬的 是不是這樣"},{"start":673.601,"end":697.938,"text":"我只是針對這個檢疫的工作他內容描述的檢疫的工作不是你在做啊你不需要打呼我檢疫的工作啊你中委員正式收跟送嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛檢疫工作後面那兩位嘛你怎麼好你請到旁邊我最後一個啦來請教這個杜署長還有我們副署長昨天長是在28日已經正式回應說要求經濟部 數碼部"},{"start":699.219,"end":724.491,"text":"還有研究如果讓這個淘寶拼多多這個限期落地如果限期不落地不納入管制的話將要求電商這個平台下架現在中國的雙11促銷活動即將來臨然後去年的時候淘寶為了搶這個雙11的商機就宣布於7-11門市和新竹物流合作擴大全台免運服務範圍只要下單選這個7-11"},{"start":727.612,"end":749.1,"text":"什麼也沒有門市取貨或通過宅配滿人民幣99元想免運到台然後然後包裹更可以直接全台368這個這個鄉鎮市區來寄送然後偏鄉地區也能輕鬆取貨這個這個是去年事情你再回到上一頁"},{"start":751.216,"end":774.925,"text":"這個是拼多多的 只要選TW 選台灣收入地址下單可享滿49的 等於是人民幣可以免運嘛 等於滿200塊的台幣嘛 就可以免運了這個是什麼意思啊 然後可以賣這些東西可以賣 左邊是肉類 右邊是水果"},{"start":776.553,"end":804.153,"text":"署長怎麼看待這個事情這個事情要怎麼應應目前來講有很多是他的廣告那是在境外廣告那真正的要做到購買然後寄送的時候其實還是有在大的廠商是有一些的作為有些是你真的訂貨的時候你也進不來那有的是你刷卡的時候用台灣的這個信用卡"},{"start":805.835,"end":830.635,"text":"他也不會成交所以他是有後面是有一些的管制措施的所以這些商家他們在做無效廣告無聊廣告無益廣告你要不要等一下回桌的時候還是休息十分鐘的時候馬上你打拼多多就是每天都有頻率之高誰的手機都可以看到而且這是專為台灣設計的滿200台幣滿49的人民幣你就免預"},{"start":835.503,"end":851.588,"text":"然後琵琶包每天都有每天都有然後這些這些都是禁止進來台灣的不要講肉類喔連水果都是喔一直在廣告一直在廣告那院長講這樣什麼時候委員我再補充一下就是拼多多是一個新的一個媒體"},{"start":852.488,"end":871.397,"text":"那他用APP的方式在做他的行銷那這個部分在秘書長這邊召集的跨部會會議的時候也要求速發布要提出一個具體針對這些電商平台有些的不法的違法的或者是管理不良的這個部分要做一個處置"},{"start":874.966,"end":886.627,"text":"我知道那天院會的質詢 院長做的才是 這邊都有很清楚來不及啦 太晚了啦 反應不夠快啦雙11已經快到了"},{"start":887.574,"end":907.663,"text":"我希望我們可以加快 其實基本上他就是公然違反我們台灣相關的法令嘛對不對 我們知道他在網路 他在臉書 他在平台一直持續不斷不斷的不斷的在播送 在連結 在擴大他的數據台灣的政府要有積極因應的相關的作為啊"},{"start":910.355,"end":937.461,"text":"剛剛你講的進行屏蔽嘛對不對只有進行屏蔽就夠了嗎還有可以做到什麼程度拒絕怎麼拒絕拒絕就是你從台灣下單在那邊如果有自主管理跟我們電商平台合作是拒絕下單但拼多多是一個新的一個電商平台那所以說現在可能要整個的資訊的一個屏蔽所以這個部分找那個速發部在做"},{"start":940.313,"end":968.116,"text":"相關的一個策略我覺得這做屏蔽 還有你講的拒絕真的是不夠力你們要不要最快的速度因為時間關係好不好請你 請農業部嘛還有經濟部 還有這個 樹花部衛福部應該也要一起來啦真的 這已經離譜了這不是這幾天的事情這是一大陣子的嘛 對不對"},{"start":969.417,"end":996.397,"text":"是不是請市部長也可以來召集看來如何來應應為了國人的健康為了我們台灣的養豬產業為了我們的豬籠為了所有的一系列這樣生態的這樣的一個台灣的很多的一個必須要怎麼講我看到這些數據每天在這樣跑在這樣跑在這樣跑那其實我真的看得很汗顏我也覺得很擔憂台灣未來的處境真的"},{"start":998.238,"end":1020.094,"text":"結果香港剛剛開場白的一直帶進來一直帶進來一直有這樣被我們阻絕在外的這些疑似還是這些弱品基本上就好像在做生化攻擊的道理一樣所以全員動起來一個星期內好不好提出相關的因應作為不能只有屏蔽不能只有拒絕而已的這些措施好不好 謝謝好 我們謝謝劉建國委員的資訊"},{"start":1025.785,"end":1027.75,"text":"接下来我们请廖维祥委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時14分）謝謝主席。我要請杜署長還有關務署的副署長。這個手檢包查驗的部分，剛剛你們這種答詢，我會替你們捏把冷汗，國人也會覺得你到底是在講什麼，而且那個副署長有沒有講這句話，基本上現在電話查就馬上知道了，除非他退休，他退休在臺灣也接得到電話，這個都可以馬上問的。即便這一關是這個樣子，他可以拒絕，但是他真的走得出去嗎？他走得出去嗎？臺灣的邊境查驗、入關的查驗有這麼鬆嗎？也因為沒有法源依據請他打開包包，他拒絕之後就沒事了嗎？有這種事情嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不行！"],["劉委員建國：那就對了啊！我怎麼覺得你們回答得很軟這樣，說我們就沒法源、我們人就不夠、我們是保全等等，你的回答讓人家覺得……不然你現場問在座的各位，包含官員，剛剛聽到杜署長……我是知道你很累啦！這幾天為了非洲豬瘟的事情，但是這種答詢的回應方式……王委員也特別提供這樣的訊息給你了，竟然還有人敢把這件事情po在臉書表示就是可以拒絕，你奈我如何？怎麼可以這樣公然挑戰公權力？然後現在委員來垂詢你的時候，你們的回應好像是：對啊！就是這樣啊！雖然我們還有最後一個關卡就是關務署，對不對？但對防檢署來講，你們就是防疫的第一線啊！防疫就是你已經站到海關這個浪頭的時候，你就是要有辦法處理啊！你沒辦法處理……你就是不能再讓他再走到下一個階段，你就要馬上通知關務署的人到現場、通知海關的人到現場來啊！你沒有法源依據可以要求他開，但關務署的人能不能叫他開？我們也可以馬上做，他下一步就走不下去了，你們怎麼沒有power講這種話？今天是委員已經把人家臉書po的、已經挑戰了你們的公權力的情況之下，在國會殿堂垂詢你的時候，你的回應怎麼可以這麼樣的……太軟了，這樣不對啦！這跟蘇院長任內的時候實在是完全不一樣的處理態度跟行動，我坐在那裡也覺得連部長都在替你緊張，好像在教導國人，今天如果發生這樣的情況，好像在教導國人說：對啊！就是可以拒絕，你奈我何？你依據什麼法律？你哪裡有強制力？國人在出入境機場有這麼輕鬆的嗎？","昨天在內政委員會還有我的委員同仁好像對出席的內政部首長說我們的邊境查驗、我們的機場管理得太嚴了啦！有沒有？你可以馬上問、馬上查，就在內政委員會，我記得就是有這件事情，說臺灣機場的檢查太嚴格、程序太長，但是今天在衛環委員會，感覺好像不是這個樣子，好像很輕鬆，怎麼會有不同委員會、不同委員的垂詢，對一個機場的把關差異這麼大？那就是為政者回應的態度跟實際上的作為。","根據農業部的資料，114年最新的檢疫統計，國外民眾攜帶肉製品陽性率，中國是13.1%，越南是8.8%，泰國4.2%，陽性比例最高的是這三個國家，其中中國的肉品對臺灣簡直可以說是生化攻擊了，目前海關邊境對於機場夾帶有完整的攔截措施存在，我這一次特別排這一個專案，就是因為大量透過電商平臺、透過網路直接在國外訂購肉製品，直接輸臺。請中華郵政的處長出席一下，相關的報導也特別提到中華郵政承接大量拼多多、淘寶貨物，臺中郵局進口約50個貨櫃六萬多件，高雄郵局進口約60個貨櫃九萬多件，除了這兩個，還有其他嗎？只有這兩個郵局嗎？還有其他資料你可以補充嗎？"],["柯處長清長：報告主席，目前只有從臺中港跟高雄港進來。"],["劉委員建國：就這兩個港嘛，對不對？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：就這兩個港，這個數據正確嘛？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：從8月起一直到現在，五十多個貨櫃是在臺中，六十個貨櫃在高雄，兩地貨櫃加起來就十幾萬件，沒有錯吧？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：有郵政主管透露，近三個月來日夜加班壓力非常大，大量中國貨櫃有肉類相關的香腸還有豬肉月餅，搬到會怕，憂心成為豬瘟防疫的破口，有沒有這件事情？"],["柯處長清長：報告委員，基本上，從海運快遞進口的這些郵包是以貨關進來，是經過海運快遞通關，經過關務署以及防檢局的檢疫，在通關、清關以後才交給中華郵政遞送。"],["劉委員建國：所以意思是，基本上只要經過關務署、防檢署檢疫完，X光機照過之後，反正就是沒有所謂的違禁品，中華郵政反正就只是寄送，接跟送而已，是不是這樣？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以相關的檢驗把關就是在關務署跟防檢署，應該是這樣嘛？跟你中華郵政沒有關係嘛？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以你現在跟我講，郵政主管透露這三個月來日夜加班，處理來自中國大量貨櫃有肉類、香腸、含豬肉的月餅，搬到會怕是假的？你要回應我這個是假的，中華郵政沒有這個主管，這個主管是虛設的，這個主管是自己跑出來的，這個主管是虛擬的？"],["柯處長清長：跟委員報告，針對同仁反映，基本上，檢疫的部分的確是經過X光以及防檢署，當然現在因為配合海運快遞進來，整個貨件經過清關以後，交運給中華郵政遞送，所以反映內容的真實性，我在這邊沒有辦法回應跟查證。"],["劉委員建國：我先請處長看一下照片，「滿￥49免運，選TW收貨地址下單可享」，這「TW」是指什麼？"],["柯處長清長：臺幣。"],["劉委員建國：指臺幣？那好像電線桿下面又兩條槓的符號，是什麼？"],["柯處長清長：我不清楚，不敢……"],["劉委員建國：你就是不清楚，所以你今天答復我才會很多事情不太清楚。滿49免運是指人民幣，那個符號是幣值的代號，就是人民幣。選「TW」不是指臺幣，是收貨地址下單選臺灣，滿人民幣49可享免運，這是針對臺灣消費者的廣告，處長這樣清楚吧？"],["柯處長清長：是，清楚，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：你看簡報他賣什麼東西，你可以簡單從左邊講一項，從右邊講一項嗎？"],["柯處長清長：右邊是水果類，左邊是肉類製品。"],["劉委員建國：我們先講右邊的水果類，這些可以銷入臺灣嗎？"],["柯處長清長：依照……"],["劉委員建國：X光機照到這些有直接處理掉？"],["柯處長清長：這些是沒有辦法透過進口的。"],["劉委員建國：這是沒辦法進口，中華郵政如果有接受這樣的貨品，直接寄到收件人，中華郵政會負起什麼責任？"],["柯處長清長：因為它是整個包裝，經過驗關和清關以後，我們沒有辦法對內容物做查證。"],["劉委員建國：所以你不曉得你們在送什麼東西，對不對？"],["柯處長清長：基本上……"],["劉委員建國：應該是這麼講嘛？所以右邊就這樣了，左邊也是這樣嘛？是不是？"],["柯處長清長：這個是貨運承攬業，它必須清楚標示產地，進來以後經過海關……"],["劉委員建國：時間的關係，沒有辦法再講下去，我只是要跟你提醒，處長請先到旁邊，謝謝，不好意思。","所以你現在是在否認我說你們的郵政主管搬貨搬到怕，擔心有非洲防疫的破口是假訊息就對了？你回答我是這樣，是不是？你記住喔！這現場都是有錄影、錄音的喔！要不要再肯定答復一下？不可能？"],["柯處長清長：這整個搬運的工作是事實，但是……"],["劉委員建國：可不可能？你就簡單答復我一句話就好。"],["柯處長清長：但是內部的整個檢疫，我們的確是沒有參與這些檢疫工作。"],["劉委員建國：我在委員會很少為難官員，但是我希望官員在答復過程裡面還是要秉於良心、秉於專業，秉於真的實際上可能的狀況把事情講清楚，對不對？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：你現在講是沒有、不可能發生，所以這個郵政主管是假的，這是假訊息、是虛擬的，是不是這樣？"],["柯處長清長：我只是針對檢疫的工作，它內容描述的……"],["劉委員建國：檢疫的工作不是你在做啊！你不需要答復我檢疫的工作啊！中華郵政是收跟送，應該是這樣嘛？"],["柯處長清長：是。"],["劉委員建國：檢疫工作是後面那兩位，你怎麼……好，你請到旁邊。","我最後請教杜署長還有副署長，卓院長在28日已經正式回應，要求經濟部、數發部研究如何讓淘寶還有拼多多限期落地，如果限期不落地，不納入管制的話，將要求電商平臺下架。現在中國的雙十一促銷活動即將來臨，去年淘寶為了搶雙十一的商機，就宣布於7-ELEVEN門市和新竹物流合作，擴大全臺免運服務範圍，只要下單選7-ELEVEN門市取貨，或透過宅配滿人民幣99元享免運到臺。包裹更會直接寄送全臺368個鄉鎮市區，偏鄉地區也能輕鬆取貨，這個是去年的事情。投影片上一頁是拼多多，只要選TW、選臺灣收件地址，下單滿人民幣49可以免運，等於滿兩百塊臺幣就可以免運，這個是什麼意思？而且可以賣這些東西，左邊是肉類、右邊是水果，署長怎麼看待這件事情？這個事情要怎麼因應？"],["杜署長麗華：因為以目前來講，他的廣告是境外廣告，真正要做到購買、寄送的時候，在大廠商是有一些作為，有些是你真的訂貨的時候也進不來，有的是刷卡的時候，用臺灣的信用卡它也不會成交，所以後面是有一些管制措施的。"],["劉委員建國：所以這些商家他們在做無效廣告、無聊廣告、無益廣告？你要不要等一下回座位的時候，還是休息的時候，你馬上打拼多多，就是每天都有，頻率之高，誰的手機都可以看得到，而且這是專為臺灣設計的，滿兩百臺幣、滿49人民幣就免運，劈哩啪啦每天都有，這些都是禁止進到臺灣的，不要講肉類，連水果都是喔！都一直在廣告、一直在廣告，院長講這樣，什麼時候……"],["杜署長麗華：委員，我再補充一下，拼多多是新的媒體，它用app的方式在做行銷，這個部分在秘書長召集跨部會會議的時候，也有要求數發部要提出具體針對這些電商平臺，有不法的、違法的或者是管理不良的部分要做處置。"],["劉委員建國：我知道那天院會的質詢院長做的裁示，簡報都有顯示很清楚，來不及、太晚了、反應不夠快！雙十一已經快到了，我希望你們可以加快！"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["劉委員建國：其實，這些基本上就是公然違反臺灣相關的法令，我們知道它在網路、在臉書，在平臺一直持續不斷在播送、在連結、在擴大它的數據，臺灣政府要有積極因應的相關作為啊！剛剛你講的進行屏蔽，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["劉委員建國：只有進行屏蔽就夠了嗎？還可以做到什麼程度？"],["杜署長麗華：拒絕。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼拒絕？"],["杜署長麗華：拒絕就是從臺灣下單，在那邊如果有自主管理跟我們電商平臺合作是拒絕下單，但拼多多是一個新的電商平臺，所以現在可能要整個資訊屏蔽，這個部分有找數發部研擬相關的策略。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得只有屏蔽還有你講的拒絕真的不夠力，你們要不要用最快的速度……因為時間的關係，請農業部、經濟部、數發部，衛福部應該也要一起，這真的離譜，這不是這幾天的事情，這已經好一陣子了，對不對？是不是請石部長召集相關單位看如何因應？為了國人的健康、為了我們臺灣的養豬產業、為了我們的豬農、為了我們所有一系列生態的……","我看到這些數據每天這樣跑、這樣跑，其實我真的看得很汗顏，也很擔憂臺灣未來的處境。就像我剛剛開場白說的，一直帶進來、一直帶進來，一直有被我們阻絕在外疑似的肉品，基本上就好像在做生化攻擊的道理一樣。所以請你們動起來，一個星期內提出相關的因應作為，不能只有屏蔽、不能只有拒絕而已，請提出相關措施，好不好？謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","接下來請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00753b9b00160441d38220506846d94b49935765bd47f5465111b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:19:53 - 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謝謝那接下來請您暫時休息一下先不要消耗那請副總裁來問一下聯準會之前啊我就問過總裁不過今天是副總裁來嘛我就問說聯準會的降息跟台股的新高會不會有關聯那時候還沒降喔"},{"start":208.96,"end":216.909,"text":"那現在呢 林仁偉呢現在 聯儲會降啦那台股又創新高那到底有沒有關係呢是台股的體質好我們的出口產業強勁創新產業強勁 是什麼原因"},{"start":220.944,"end":249.345,"text":"有没有关联应该影响的因素很多很多但是如果我们真的台股很好外资会进来买外资很愿意来买对 应该是这样但是因为外资大局进入那有人又说那央行的没收的这个汇率的升幅出手没收讲得很重但是我们都认为央行是要持续的因为我们台湾是出口导向那吻会很重要那这个汇率影响程度央行怎么运营"},{"start":251.458,"end":270.248,"text":"我應該這麼講其實外匯市場的匯率應該是市場供需決定很難預測但是我們看外資他進來買但外資在台股投資獲利很高他還有一個隨時將他的獲利匯出去所以對匯率的影響其實進來買好像是"},{"start":276.601,"end":298.163,"text":"一個方向對他獲利馬上出去是一個方向所以你認為外資的進出台股的市場對於匯率的影響是一部分的不是全部的那央行要持續的穩會這是我們的目標是我們好謝謝來往下看那他穩定幣大家都問穩定幣的貨幣戰那麼美國他是由不具官方"},{"start":299.203,"end":322.404,"text":"不發行官方的穩定幣但是歐盟的看法不同他為了擔心他的清算體系資本流動還有跨境結算全面的美元化所以歐盟是很積極那麼美國目前是兩大穩定幣商壟斷市場但是歐盟的做法我們台灣有一個數位性台幣CPTC那麼目前CPTC目前央行的規劃"},{"start":324.085,"end":330.327,"text":"用的比較通俗 是B to B沒有用在一般的民間那未來會不會繼續擴大跟歐盟的做法一樣其實這個部分我們現在CBDC是在一個試驗的階段在研擬 至於未來應該怎麼樣其實有各種可能性會不會擴大 謝局長我聽你講過問一下謝局長他有兩層所以主要他應該是在"},{"start":352.556,"end":357.32,"text":"央行的CPTC上層基本上它是跟金融機構之間的支付清算我們現在談的穩定幣這個部分是一般大眾這是很不一樣所以會不會CPTC擴大到一般當作是一種穩定幣謝局長我之前聽過你的一個介紹謝局長你解釋一下"},{"start":375.234,"end":393.852,"text":"我想就是分兩個一個叫做Retail的給大眾使用的一個是給Wholesale給做清算使用的那目前因為我想我們目前不急迫去發行那個Retail的CBDC主要是因為現在的支付工具相當的多元也便利所以沒有急迫性所以目前比較急迫是在那個Wholesale做一個清算"},{"start":394.292,"end":411.099,"text":"我馬上問下一題 既然你這樣講已經進入了我們穩定幣的監理它有準備資產對不對高價值 高品質或高流動性像短期貸券或票券如果不是法幣樣態的是不是會用不是法幣樣態的來做穩定幣的準備資產美債 RWA會這樣嗎會不會把這些不是法幣樣態的來做為穩定幣的資產 準備資產"},{"start":420.342,"end":447.19,"text":"目前我們在那個法的規定主要是在給高流動性高安全的這個金融資產美債算不算美債可以啊RWA也可以如果是屬於符合合格的這種有監理的有監管的這種金融資產很好 講到了來 現在我們要問有監管的來 監管會同事會來 知道這個事件加密通貨史上最大規模的清算事件因為川普宣布了對中國加徵百分之百結果加密通貨就11天 哇"},{"start":448.719,"end":474.844,"text":"因為基本上它是用非資產來做儲備的那這個合成穩定幣它可以買進虛擬資產但是又賣出等值的一個期貨然後有Delta中性對沖後面的運作我們來看一下就是這樣的循環它已經不是用實體資產了那它去抵押之後又拿到穩定幣又繼續買這樣合成資產這樣一直循迴循迴循迴它可以把它受益率推高到四成五成那這樣的合成穩定幣的循環貸有什麼風險"},{"start":476.28,"end":495.809,"text":"我想我們在這次的我們的草案裡面就不包括這一塊了不包括這一塊不包括合成穩定幣對是好那這樣我們就往下看了好那麼剛剛我們提到呢對不起往上看對就是合成穩定幣他貶值會造成死亡螺旋這是不是也是因為這樣的關係所以我們金管會不打算開放"},{"start":496.68,"end":511.307,"text":"當時我們在考慮的時候本來這個四大類的穩定幣的形態我們就選擇以法幣做連結以法幣 對但是剛剛央行說啦這個美債啦這個我們的這個RWA它也可以考慮啊它是準備資產"},{"start":512.327,"end":529.779,"text":"那是準備資產就是背後比如說我發一個台幣穩定利率我背後的準備資產可以用什麼像USDT USDC它也不是用美金它是可能用他們短期的美債或是其他的工具就是流動性要高安全性要好好所以這個剛剛央行的問題就是這樣未來"},{"start":531.348,"end":559.309,"text":"是否開放合成穩定幣或以Delta中性對沖的虛擬資產您剛剛已經答了如果按照我們的草案通過應該是沒有這個那會不會開放虛擬資產的抵押或循環抵押也就不存在了就是我剛才提到假設未來因為虛擬資產說未來有新的業態的部分我們剛才講我們在專法也保留了一個立法上的可能性有其他金主管居然同意的虛擬資產業務所以未來如果會開放"},{"start":560.766,"end":581.795,"text":"會不會有什麼具體規範那當然每一個新的開放我們都會仔細的思考他所有的應該怎麼規範會非常謹慎來做這件事好那這裡面的就剛講到的RWA技術驗證以具可行性那麼因為你們提到了說金環會已經有一個實驗小組也顯示了具有可行性那麼如果有三個領域一個要趕快有調適法規要有交易平台要跟國際連結"},{"start":583.015,"end":612.755,"text":"那未來如果開放會不會建立第三方的驗證機制來向購買者驗證資產價值我想RWA它比較特別一點其實剛剛有提到有人說其實穩定幣也是某種RWA但是就是說我們現在在那個專法草案裡面我們在定義裡面其實是把RWA排除在外的因為我們是把它另外的當作是因為它是連結到有價證券我們現在還是因為另外一個有價證券的方式在處理所以RWA的部分不會在這裡面除了穩定幣以外"},{"start":614.578,"end":622.369,"text":"RWAE它是一個有實體世界資產的一個它就是一個孿生或是數位原生它的實體因為剛剛吳秉隆也問到了它的實體世界的資產價值重不重要"},{"start":628.191,"end":646.465,"text":"就是RWA它本質上它就是兩個是連動的就是它的分身就是我有一個股票它主要的目的是希望交易更有效率不受時間空間的限制但是這個穩定幣不一樣它倆是有點分離這個還是有點差別只是說它性質是很類似都有一個抵押資產在做一個"},{"start":647.425,"end":663.415,"text":"做一個back up這樣好 謝謝最後我們來看一下那麼立法院的法治局提出了虛擬資產的稅務規範因為既然是資產它會有交易也會未來有面臨到課稅的問題這個部分今晚會不會跟財政部提出說這個部分財政部是不是要來關心一下"},{"start":664.095,"end":681.745,"text":"這當然 我想財政部據我所知他們應該也在做這個研究啦因為這個衝航稅的部分我們不會在專法裡面釐定那財政部應該會根據他的性質跟他交易的屬性來釐清該課什麼樣的一個稅賦的制度好 謝謝主委 葉主席暫停我們到這謝謝謝謝中委員接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請金管會彭主委，還有央行朱副總裁。"],["主席：請彭主委、朱副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。當然，今天有央行的題目，先問一個時事議題，就是玉山金併購三商壽，居然有媒體的標題說是摸黑交易，因為根據證交所的處理程序，重大投資必須要做重訊發布。有人說玉山金的團隊既然已經投標，出具了一個具有法律約束力的文件，如果沒有經過董事會的決議，這樣可以嗎？金管會的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想相關的交易都是具有……他們都非常清楚什麼叫做公司治理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這件事情我們已經責成交易所主動去了解，剛剛也有委員詢問這個問題，我會請交易所調查完畢再跟社會做報告。因為這個主要是交易所跟他們之間的契約關係，我們一定會請交易所去跟他們做些了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我想不只一位委員關心，表示這是一個大家都關心的議題，所以請金管會一定要慎重處理，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們在前天的記者會也表達這樣的看法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，我們期待調查後的結果。三商壽的RBC如果沒有達標，我們來推估，玉山金會溢價收購嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我們在做帳務財報的價值，跟它未來持續經營的價值，這兩個是有不同的看法，為什麼每次收購合併案都有所謂的溢價？就是大家對於持續經營價值的預期不同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：等於說我們現在看到它的價值是所謂淨變現的概念，就是現在我做一個清償，它價值多少，就像我開一家餐廳，餐廳如果現在馬上清掉，我的資材設備就是值這麼多錢，但是我長期經營，假設我是個經營能力好的人，我看到的價值是不一樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但正是因為金管會公布了一個ICS過渡措施，所以三商壽就算是合格了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有、沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，它必須對以前那個資本缺口完全不能消失。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以它必須承諾，未來接手的人也必須要概括承受。"],["彭主任委員金隆：概括承受。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在這種情況之下，願意溢價來併購的，跟金管會的ICS過渡措施有關聯嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們協商的過程，金管會是不會介入的，我想這是一個市場機制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：由他們去判斷？"],["彭主任委員金隆：市場機制的判斷，因為我們一定要等它開始……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它知道要概括承受了，所以它心裡有譜？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說未來他們有送件的時候，正式透過他們的公司治理股東民主程序決議通過以後，按照金控法還有保險法的規定送到金管會，我們就會來看它這部分的承諾，還有這些內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。接下來請你暫時休息一下，請副總裁。","來問一下聯準會，之前我就問過總裁，不過今天是副總裁來，我問說聯準會的降息跟臺股的新高會不會有關聯？那時候還沒降，現在聯準會降了，你認為臺股又創新高，到底有沒有關係呢？是臺股的體質好，我們的出口產業強勁、創新產業強勁？是什麼原因？有沒有關聯？"],["朱副總裁美麗：應該影響的因素很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很多？"],["朱副總裁美麗：但是如果我們臺股真的很好，外資會進來買。"],["鍾委員佳濱：體質很好，外資很願意來買？"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，應該是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是因為外資大舉進入，有人又說了，央行出手沒收了匯率的升幅，「出手沒收」，講得很重，但是我們認為央行是要持續的，因為我們臺灣是出口導向，穩匯很重要，這個匯率影響程度央行怎麼因應？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我應該這麼講，其實外匯市場的匯率應該是市場供需決定，很難預測，但是我們看外資進來買，它在臺股投資獲利很高，還可以隨時會將它的獲利匯出去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["朱副總裁美麗：所以對匯率的影響，其實進來買好像是一個方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["朱副總裁美麗：它獲利馬上匯出去是另一個方向，可能抵消掉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你認為外資進出臺股的市場，對於匯率的影響是一部分，不是全部。"],["朱副總裁美麗：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但央行要持續的穩匯，這是你們的目標？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是我們的目標。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。來，往下看，大家來看穩定幣，大家都在問穩定幣的貨幣戰，美國是不發行官方的穩定幣，但是歐盟的看法不同，它擔心它的清算體系、資本流動，還有跨境結算全面美元化，所以歐盟很積極。那麼美國目前是兩大穩定幣商壟斷市場，但是歐盟的作法……我們臺灣有一個數位新臺幣（CBDC），目前CBDC在央行的規劃用一個比較通俗化的說法是B2B，沒有用在一般的民間，未來會不會繼續擴大，跟歐盟的作法一樣？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實CBDC這個部分，我們現在是在一個試驗的階段、在研擬，至於未來應該怎麼樣，其實有各種可能性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會擴大？謝局長，我聽你講過……"],["朱副總裁美麗：但是最基本的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：問一下謝局長好了。"],["朱副總裁美麗：但是它有兩層，最主要它應該是在上層，央行的CBDC是上層。基本上，它是跟金融機構之間的支付清算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：下層。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們現在談穩定幣的這個部分是一般大眾使用的，這是很不一樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以會不會CBDC擴大到一般大眾，當作是一種穩定幣？謝局長，我之前聽過你的介紹，謝局長來解釋一下。"],["謝局長鳳瑛：我想就是分兩個，一個叫做retail，給大眾使用的；一個是給wholesale，給做清算使用的。我想我們目前不急迫去發行retail的CBDC，主要是因為現在的支付工具相當的多元也便利，所以沒有急迫性，目前比較急迫是在wholesale做清算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我馬上問下一題，既然你這樣講，已經進入了。我們穩定幣的監理，它有準備資產，對不對？高價值、高品質或高流動性，像短期債券或票券，如果不是法幣樣態的，是不是會用不是法幣樣態的來做穩定幣的準備資產？美債？RWA？會這樣嗎？會不會把這些不是法幣樣態的作為穩定幣的準備資產？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：目前我們在那個法的規定，主要還是以高流動性、高安全的金融市場為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美債算不算？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：美債可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：RWA也可以？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：如果是屬於符合或合格的這種有監理的、有監管的金融資產……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，講到了。現在我們要問有監管的，來，金管會彭主委，知不知道這個事件？加密通貨史上最大規模的清算事件，因為川普宣布了對中國加徵100%新關稅，結果加密通貨11日……因為基本上它是用非資產來做儲備的，這個合成穩定幣可以買進虛擬資產，但是又賣出等值的期貨，然後有Delta中性對沖。我們來看一下後面的運作，就是這樣的循環，它已經不是用實體資產了，去抵押之後又拿到穩定幣，又繼續買這樣的合成資產，這樣一直循環、循環、循環，它可以把收益率推高到四成、五成，這樣的合成穩定幣循環貸有什麼風險？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這次我們的草案裡面就不包括這一塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不包括這一塊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不包括合成穩定幣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這樣我們就往下看。合成穩定幣貶值會造成死亡螺旋，是不是也是因為這樣的關係，所以金管會不打算開放？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當時我們在考慮的時候，本來這四大類的穩定幣型態，我們就選擇以法幣做連結。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以法幣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是剛剛央行說了，美債、我們的RWA也可以考慮。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，它是準備資產。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是準備資產？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說我發一個臺幣穩定幣，我背後的準備資產可以用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK。"],["彭主任委員金隆：像USDT、USDC也不是用美金，它可能是用他們短期的美債，或是其他的工具，就是流動性要高、安全性要好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以剛剛央行的問題就是這樣。未來是否開放合成穩定幣或以Delta中性對沖的虛擬資產？您剛剛已經答了嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果按照我們的草案通過，應該是沒有這個。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有這個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那會不會開放虛擬資產抵押或循環抵押，也就不存在了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是我剛才提到，假設未來虛擬資產有新的業態，我剛才講，我們在專法也保留了一個立法上的彈性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，有其他經主管機關同意的虛擬資產業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以未來如果開放，會不會有什麼具體規範？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，每一個新的開放，我們都會仔細地思考它應該要怎麼規範，會非常謹慎來做這件事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這裡面就是剛剛講到的RWA技術驗證已具可行性。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你們提到金管會已經有一個實驗小組，也顯示具有可行性，有三個領域，分別要趕快調適法規、要建置交易平臺、要跟國際連結。未來如果開放，會不會建立第三方驗證機制，來向購買者驗證資產價值？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想RWA比較特別一點，其實剛剛有提到，有人說穩定幣也是某種RWA，但是我們現在在專法草案的定義裡面其實把RWA排除在外，因為我們是把它另外的當作……比如因為它是連結到有價證券，我們現在還是用另外一個有價證券的方式在處理，所以剛才講RWA的部分不會在這裡面，除了穩定幣以外。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，因為RWA是一個有實體世界資產的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它就是一個孿生，或是數位原生……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，因為剛剛吳秉叡委員有問到了，它的實體世界資產價值重不重要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：RWA本質上兩個就是連動的，就是它的分身嘛！就是我有一個股票……它主要的目的是希望交易更有效率，不受時間、空間的限制，但是這個穩定幣不一樣，兩個是有點分離，這個還是有點差別，只是說它性質是很類似，都有個抵押資產在做一個backup。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。最後我們來看一下，立法院的法制局提出了虛擬資產的稅務規範，既然是資產，它會有交易，未來也會面臨課稅的問題，就這個部分，金管會會不會跟財政部提，請它是不是也要來關心一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然，據我所知財政部應該也在做這個研究，因為通常稅的部分，我們不會在專法裡面釐定，財政部應該會根據它性質跟交易的屬性來釐清該課什麼樣稅賦的制度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，因為主席站起來了，我們就到這裡，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f000b34014309cfdc2bf253141cf72ece13935765bd47f5465181c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:10:20 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長官 基層幹部而且還把他們一個一個向中國舉報"},{"start":66.807,"end":84.821,"text":"另外他也檢舉一般人說你違反中華人民共和國什麼法什麼法什麼法等到有一天同意之後通通要把你抓起來然後呢他還成立了一個解放軍的粉專鼓吹武統武統什麼意思啊武統就是用軍事力量屠殺我國的軍民百姓"},{"start":85.922,"end":115.251,"text":"那這一個四月份五月份媒體大量報導之後我個人本席還有我知道媒體也有都向你們進行了檢舉那現在很多國人關心說那這個事情到最後雅雅的情形我們知道了她現在在中國那邊悔不當初啊中國的公安才不理你半夜去敲門踹她所以台灣跟中國哪邊民主哪邊法治哪邊自由哪邊人權去問雅雅就知道了她現在想盡辦法要回來啊那這一個前例"},{"start":116.226,"end":138.982,"text":"到底陸委會這邊是沒有處理還是已經處理沒有揭露但我可以接受在不影響無辜第三方的情形下請你適度的讓國人知道這個案子目前的進度是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先關於前例這案確實我們有跟相關的部會進行多次的討論然後希望能夠在適當的處理了沒有處理了先跟委員報告在什麼時候處理的什麼時候"},{"start":140.163,"end":163.091,"text":"我們在8月25號的時候那現在處理的這個情況我們在8月25號已經請移民署廢止了這個前女友她的這個台灣身份跟戶籍然後回到拘留的狀態目前的情況是這樣所以這一位前姓女子前例用中華人民共和國的法律在我們國家的境內恐嚇中華民國的公民"},{"start":164.131,"end":188.917,"text":"恐嚇上班公司的老闆說 你這個言行 你看某某電視台他用他看哪一家電視台 說他要懲治台獨欸用思想檢查 他還在電梯裡面張貼中國法院對 他還在電梯貼 這幾家電視台不能看這幾家報紙你看了齁 那幾家報紙電視台現在都坐在那邊啊所以看了他們齁 就要檢舉欸要照中華人民共和國法院 通通抓起來啊 通通要關啊有的還要槍斃欸"},{"start":190.558,"end":214.566,"text":"他還寫了一千個字的文章貼在那邊啊這你都知道嘛所以今天你們第一次公開揭露這位錢吏在8月25號被剝奪中華民國公民身份是是是然後我們也在8月28號的時候已經辦妥了他的廢紙登記他的戶籍的這個部分也已經辦妥了你們應該叫中國他們通過的他們叫情報法還是什麼法"},{"start":215.686,"end":235.196,"text":"法律裡面明定中華人民共和國的公民有協助中國政權也就是中共進行相關勤工作業法律規定喔你作為一個中華人民共和國的公民如果你不配合中共政府進行情報工作的話是違反他們法律是要抓去關的"},{"start":236.636,"end":259.67,"text":"也就是這樣子 所以我們在台灣我們不管擔任公職 我們參與選舉我們才會要求你不能有雙重國籍美國籍不行 日本籍不行對台灣充滿敵意的中國籍當然也不行而潛力這個就最典型所以你這個潛力被剝奪了國籍這是我們國家用正確的使用法律剝奪中華民國國籍的第幾個應該是首例"},{"start":263.615,"end":286.838,"text":"其實是已經有好幾位了有好幾位了嘛我覺得為什麼要揭露你知道嗎不教而殺為之虐我們要讓他們知道在台灣移民進來我們都歡迎都是我們台灣的一份子我們對於任何國家越南的新住民印尼的新住民歐美各國包含中國進來的就是我們同胞但是如果有哪些法律"},{"start":287.958,"end":317.238,"text":"踩到了你來這個國家不是為了愛這個國家是為了消滅這個國家我們就可以剝奪你的國籍潛力就是一個好的例子所以8月25號潛力依照中華民國法律已經剝奪他中華民國國籍OK好那這個我覺得應該讓國人知道你們是有做有處理而且若按照5月份檢舉到825其實不能算慢因為你們還要看證據還要調查還要給對方我們台灣總不像中國中國你拿張白紙就可以消失三個月"},{"start":318.038,"end":347.11,"text":"對不對 揭露那個武漢肺炎那個醫生死不瞑目 台灣不是我們還要給你答辯的機會 根據證據我們用我們的文明的方式執法也足以證明台灣跟中國是不一樣的國度 不一樣的體制好 那你先請回 接下來我要請教國安局你邊走邊聽啦我昨天有問局長 有關宮古航庫KYC這個命題 昨天蔡局長一直告訴我這是個案 這是個案 我昨天幫你們查出來了啦"},{"start":347.85,"end":353.18,"text":"台印人壽回報粉飾太平不是個案不是個案"},{"start":354.161,"end":377.609,"text":"我這邊有當事人簽名的證詞也就是說我中國他用政治的理由你今天如果是真的詐欺啦搶奪啦竊盜那個我沒話講 刑事犯罪用政治的理由不符合中共的思想檢查就給你 包含我們的國軍 國軍做了什麼事啊國軍保護我們2300萬的居民同胞他就給你通緝"},{"start":379.531,"end":407.552,"text":"資通電軍我們的那個軍情局我們的政戰局的同仁我們這些國軍他就通緝他然後這些同仁去銀行辦理相關業務的時候被KYC也就是Know Your Customer的資料庫跳出警示帳戶那這一個事情其實我們接續我昨天的詢問就是說這不是個案是我們外購的資料庫染紅了他也不是個案"},{"start":408.672,"end":427.038,"text":"是基層台銀人壽回報的粉飾太平金管會昨天我了解起來他們回溯回去 要求台銀人壽台銀人壽是承辦我們軍保的航庫耶我們軍人的保險都在那邊耶你拿中華人民共和國通緝我們國軍的東西來進行刁難所以"},{"start":431.601,"end":446.686,"text":"我這邊有列出來 你自己仔細看各行庫所使用的外購的KYC資料庫WordCheck Dojons LNRS Files還有Patches Officer這個都是我們各行庫 有的會買兩個 有的會買一個然後臨櫃的時候 臨櫃人員說你要辦貸款 你要更改名字"},{"start":454.309,"end":480.16,"text":"稍後一下請你提供身份證號碼姓名他就會輸入他就會請二線人員不是靈櫃靈櫃叫一線會請二線人員呢他就會進去查查的時候會有四類一個叫國內外制裁名單第二個是金融機關列管名單第三個現任或前任政治人物其實我這覺得有點但政治人物竟然放在這裡面我們以後去貸款都有點困難好再來第四個涉及負面新聞等等"},{"start":481.565,"end":505.495,"text":"結果中國的 因為台銀 像台銀買的那wall check裡面是把新華網啦 中國相關的資料庫公安公佈的什麼通緝資料wall check裡面有涵蓋所以他一勾擊 一查 就跑出來就產生他們在金融機構面對的困難我覺得到目前為止 我不願意苛責金融機構還是那句話 不教而殺為之虐他就買了國外的資料庫啊"},{"start":506.328,"end":528.814,"text":"就一查的時候跑出來紅色的他就告訴你你貸款可能有困難啊就間接了變成我們國家的金融行庫在執行中共的紅色的不合理的政治的干預那我們國安局下一步要怎麼做他們現在個別銀行用白單就把它處理掉我覺得這不對應該回到制度處理你們有什麼進度"},{"start":530.305,"end":540.832,"text":"跟委員報告那個我航庫採用的KYC資料庫應該直接排除中方惡意制裁的名單那國安部的部分 國安部"},{"start":546.156,"end":571.469,"text":"個案部分國安部已經在處理那我相信委員你之前也有召開過協調會那或許如果有需要的話本局會協助因為我聽起來你沒有掌握到狀況我告訴你下禮拜金管會會邀請國內所有的金融行庫包含外商以及受險公司進行協調因為這件事情絕對不容許發生怎麼可以讓我們的金融行庫"},{"start":572.662,"end":587.152,"text":"用中共的資料去檢視我們國軍這不對所以下週金管會會邀請所有的金融行庫受險公司包含外商在台的來就這個KYC的資料庫建立一個"},{"start":588.232,"end":616.965,"text":"處理的機制那我請國安局多用點心了解一下給他們建議可以學那個道瓊啊道瓊他可以勾姬可以勾姬排除中國資料庫但是因為在中國確實還有一些詐騙啊洗錢那個我覺得納入無可厚非就是一般的刑事犯罪所以怎麼樣去用機制去確保這一個KYC不是執行中共的政治紅色統治常被管轄而是執行合理的KYC"},{"start":617.685,"end":637.332,"text":"我想這個國安局或法務部應該用點心思這樣好不好好 跟委員最後再報告一下確實銀行局在下午有邀請銀行工會跟業者來召開他們要求向第一線審查的人員要加強宣導那使用KCY這套庫的時候不可加中方惡意制裁的名單納入"},{"start":639.249,"end":650.856,"text":"查核項目我們有掌握好我等著看下禮拜下禮拜他們建立的機制是什麼我希望是用機制而不是用個個案個案的白單這個我們台灣那麼進步了不要用這樣來處理好不好好謝謝副局長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時10分）謝謝主席，首先請陸委會。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：副主委，本席要請教一個有關我們台灣自己執法的問題。中國用政治處理法律，用違反國際不管是公約或法律架構遂行他的政治意志，這個我們待會再討論，但在我們境內發生的事情，我們國家有權處理的，國人都關心我們處理的進度。4月份、5月份有一位在華碩工會擔任職務的人叫做錢麗，他是中國籍配偶，他不僅在公司用中華人民共和國的法律一條一條檢視這家公司的執行長、同仁、長官、基層幹部，而且還把他們一個一個向中國舉報。另外，他也檢舉一般人，說他們違反中華人民共和國什麼法、什麼法，等到有一天統一之後，通通要把他們抓起來！然後他還成立了一個解放軍的粉專鼓吹武統，武統是什麼意思？武統就是用軍事力量屠殺我國軍民百姓。這一件事情在4月份、5月份媒體大量報導之後，本席還有部分媒體都有向你們提出檢舉，很多國人都關心這個事情最後……亞亞的情形我們知道了，他現在在中國是悔不當初，中國的公安才不理你，半夜去敲門踹他，所以台灣跟中國哪邊民主、哪邊法治、哪邊自由、哪邊人權，去問亞亞就知道了，他現在是想盡辦法要回來。這個錢麗事件，到底陸委會是沒有處理，還是已經處理但沒有揭露？我可以接受在不影響無辜第三方的情形下，請你適度讓國人知道這個案子目前的進度。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，非常謝謝委員的指教，首先關於錢麗這個案子，確實我們有跟相關部會進行多次討論，希望能夠在適當的……"],["王委員定宇：處理了沒有？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：處理了，先跟委員報告……"],["王委員定宇：什麼時候處理的？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們在8月25號的時候就處理了，處理的情況是我們在8月25號已經請移民署廢止錢女的台灣身分跟戶籍，回到居留狀態，目前的情況是這樣。"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以這一位錢姓女子錢麗，用中華人民共和國的法律在我們國家境內，恐嚇中華民國公民、恐嚇上班公司的老闆，以他們的某種言行或是看某某電視台等，表示要懲治台獨，用思想檢查……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：他還在電梯裡面張貼中國法律。"],["王委員定宇：對、對，他還在電梯張貼某幾家電視台、某幾家報紙不能看的貼文。你看，這幾家報紙、電視台現在都坐在那邊，他說只要看它們就要檢舉，叫中華人民共和國把他們通通抓起來關，有的還要槍斃，他還寫了一千個字的文章貼在那邊。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["王委員定宇：這你都知道嘛！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，我們都知道，都有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：所以今天你們是第一次公開揭露錢麗在8月25號被剝奪中華民國公民身分，是否？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是、是，我們在8月28號已經辦妥了他的廢止登記，就是他的戶籍部分也已經辦妥了。"],["王委員定宇：你們應該知道中國通過的一個法律，叫情報法還是什麼法的，法律裡明定中華人民共和國的公民有協助中國政權，也就是中共，進行相關情工作業，這是法律規定喔！作為一個中華人民共和國的國民、公民，如果不配合中共政府進行情報工作，是違反他們的法律，要抓去關的，也就是這樣子，所以在台灣，不管擔任公職還是參與選舉，才會要求不能有雙重國籍，美國籍不行、日本籍不行，對台灣充滿敵意的中國籍當然也不行，而錢麗就是最典型的例子。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以錢麗被剝奪國籍，是我們國家正確使用法律剝奪中華民國國籍的第幾人？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：其實已經有好幾位了。"],["王委員定宇：有好幾位了嘛！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["王委員定宇：我覺得為什麼要揭露，你知道嗎？不教而殺謂之虐，我們要讓大家知道，在台灣移民進來我們都歡迎，都是我們台灣的一分子，我們對於任何國家的移民，越南新住民、印尼新住民、歐美各國人士，包含中國，移民進來就是我們的同胞，但如果有踩到哪些法律，你來這個國家不是為了愛這個國家，而是為了消滅這個國家，那我們就可以剝奪你的國籍，錢麗就是一個好的例子，所以8月25號依照中華民國法律，已經剝奪錢麗的中華民國國籍。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["王委員定宇：OK，好，我覺得這個應該讓國人知道，你們是有做、有處理的。5月份檢舉，到825處理，其實不能算慢，因為你們還要看證據，還要調查，還要給對方說明，我們台灣不像中國，中國可能你拿張白紙就會消失三個月，對不對？像揭露武漢肺炎的那個醫生就死不瞑目，台灣不是，我們還要給人家答辯的機會，再根據證據處理，我們是用文明的方式執法，這也足以證明台灣跟中國是不一樣的國度、不一樣的體制。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，你先請回，接下來我要請教國安局。昨天我詢問蔡局長有關公股行庫KYC的問題，蔡局長一直告訴我這是個案，昨天我幫你們查出來了，臺銀人壽的回報粉飾太平，這不是個案，不是個案，我這邊有當事人簽名的證詞。今天如果是詐欺、搶奪、竊盜，那個我沒話講，是刑事犯罪，但用政治理由，只要不符合中共的思想檢查，就給你……包含我們的國軍，國軍做了什麼事？國軍保護我們2,300萬的軍民同胞，他就用通緝方式，像資通電軍、軍情局、政戰局的同仁，他就通緝我們這些國軍，然後這些同仁到銀行辦理相關業務時，KYC，也就是know your customer資料庫就跳出是警示帳戶。接續我昨天的質詢，這個事情不是個案，而是我們外購的資料庫染紅了，這不是個案，是基層臺銀人壽粉飾太平的回報。昨天我詢問後，金管會回溯回去要求臺銀人壽，臺銀人壽是承辦軍保的行庫，軍人的保險都在那邊，你拿中華人民共和國通緝我們國軍的資料來進行刁難，我這邊都有列出來，你仔細看，各行庫所使用的外購KYC資料庫，World-Check、Dow Jones、LNRS-FLES，還有Patriot Officer，這些都是我們各行庫會購買的，有的買兩個，有的買一個，臨櫃要辦理貸款時，臨櫃人員會請你提供身分證號碼、姓名等，輸入後，他再請二線人員，不是臨櫃人員，臨櫃是一線，他會請二線人員進去查，查的時候有分四類，第一個是國內外資產名單，第二個是金融機關列管名單，第三個是現任或前任政治人物，這個我真的覺得有點……當政治人物竟然被放在這裡面，這樣我們以後貸款都有點困難。好，再來第四個是涉及負面新聞等等，結果因為臺銀買的World-Check是把新華網、中國相關資料庫、公安公布的什麼通緝資料都涵蓋在內，一勾稽、一查就都跑出來，因而產生他們在金融機構裡面對的困難。對於這樣的事情，我不願苛責金融機構，還是那句話，不教而殺謂之虐，他就是買了國外的資料庫，一查就跑出來紅色的，然後就告訴你貸款可能有困難，間接變成我們國家的金融行庫在執行中共紅色的、不合理的、政治的干預，對此，國安局下一步要怎麼做？現在個別銀行是用白單把它處理掉，但我覺得不對，應該回到制度面處理，你們有什麼進度？"],["陳副局長松吉：跟委員報告，我們行庫採用的KYC資料庫，應該直接排除中方惡意制裁的名單……"],["王委員定宇：怎麼排除？它是外購的，是國外的資料庫啊！"],["陳副局長松吉：國防部個案的部分，國防部已經在處理，委員之前也有召開相關協調會，後續如果有需要的話，本局會協助，我們將依法……"],["王委員定宇：副局長，聽起來你是沒有掌握到狀況。我告訴你，下禮拜金管會會邀請國內所有金融行庫，包含外商以及壽險公司進行協調，因為這件事情絕對不容許發生，怎麼可以讓我們的金融行庫用中共的資料去檢視我們國軍，這不對！所以下週金管會會邀請所有金融行庫、壽險公司，包含在台外商，就這個KYC的資料庫建立一個處理的機制。我請國安局多用點心了解一下，給他們建議，可以學道瓊啊！道瓊它可以勾稽，可以勾稽排除中國資料庫，但是因為在中國確實還有一些詐騙、洗錢，那個我覺得納入無可厚非，就是一般的刑事犯罪，所以怎麼樣用機制去確保這一個KYC不是執行中共的政治紅色統治、長臂管轄，而是執行合理的KYC，我想國安局或法務部應該用點心思，這樣好不好？"],["陳副局長松吉：好，跟委員最後再報告一下，確實銀行局在下週也有邀請銀行公會跟業者來召開，他們要求向第一線審查人員加強宣導，使用KCY資料庫的時候……"],["王委員定宇：KYC。"],["陳副局長松吉：不可將中方惡意制裁的名單納入查核項目，我們有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：好，我等著看下禮拜他們建立的機制是什麼，我希望是用機制，而不是用一個個案個案的白單，我們臺灣那麼進步了，不要用這樣來處理，好不好？"],["陳副局長松吉：是。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝副局長，謝謝。"],["陳副局長松吉：好。"],["主席：謝謝副局長、謝謝王定宇委員。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：我們接下來進行詢答的委員陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00db6f07f71ddcad178220506846d94b49935765bd47f546513a5392e6bceeeece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"10:08:52 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M2那你要看要不要列到因為你從M1這邊拿了貨幣去買所以你如果要納入它可能就跑到M2那這邊就有一增一減"},{"start":206.824,"end":220.223,"text":"對啊那這個增加會產生怎麼樣的後果呢還有一個這是第一層第二層是說幣商拿到錢我剛才講我的意思是說剛剛你回答了我是說幣商拿到錢他要怎麼使用不是你可以控制的嗎不是會影響到貨幣供給對啊所以這個"},{"start":223.087,"end":226.769,"text":"影響增減我們說這樣看起來目前沒辦法說是增還是減要去看他們怎麼用那個有一個流程所以這是我們目前的一個邏輯所以我剛剛講說我為什麼會擔憂這個東西我個人認為如果M2的整體是增加的那你國家的主權行為本來你的貨幣供給是有一定在央行的控制之下如果你這個供給增加太多會造成通貨膨脹啊"},{"start":250.142,"end":263.684,"text":"那不只是通貨膨脹會影響到我們講的就是說貨幣政策效果中另外一個利率水準好 那另外一個問題美國的穩定幣你同不同意它在台灣使用當作美金的支付工具"},{"start":265.288,"end":290.354,"text":"這是國家跟國家之間的主權行為啊這個你們有討論過嗎我想是這樣那個如果美國發行的穩定幣要進入台灣的市場我們儘管會有些規定應該是看他們的規定有一些他規定不到有一些就在網路上直接支付掉了那那個網路上直接支付掉了也不是你們能夠控制的啊那怎麼辦我覺得現在好像即使沒規定也是有這個問題"},{"start":292.594,"end":321.192,"text":"就是跟委員說明一下我們在那個穩定幣裡面呢分兩個一個是台灣發行就是對本國募集嘛這個當然沒問題那再來第一個就是國外已經募集已經存在的話他如果要在我們的所謂的未來的虛擬資產服務業裡面進行交易要經過我們的同意等於說他要經過我們的同意還包括追蹤他所做的事情主委我剛剛有個問題他如果進來經過你的同意這個還比較好控制他現在因為網路無國界你根本就控制不到他他直接就在網路上支付了對確實是"},{"start":323.254,"end":347.768,"text":"台灣的政府就中華民國政府要不要承認是一回事事實上它已經發生了就像我在總質詢的時候經濟部長跟我講說我們台灣不接受中國的電商經營問題是所有的拼多多淘寶的貨品其實大量進來了你不承認它是存在的啊不是說我不承認它就不存在啊那我現在一個問題美國的穩定幣看起來台灣非接受不可"},{"start":348.513,"end":359.778,"text":"因為除非你要跟美國對幹但是我覺得不太可能我們中華民國政府不太可能好那如果他在台灣做支付這一些就會變成我剛剛講的廣義的國家貨幣總體供給"},{"start":363.956,"end":379.353,"text":"有可能會不受控他的金額會增加很多那當然這個金額增加很多M2增加很多的時候另外一個考慮的問題是說會不會造成整個通貨膨脹的問題因為等於就是廣義的貨幣流通在台灣就增加了很多"},{"start":380.255,"end":406.827,"text":"對 這跟委員提到就是說我們從這個比如說穩定幣從過去這一段子在國際上使用確實有一個狀況就是有些國家的民眾對自己本國的貨幣反而信心不夠他會希望持有穩定幣反而成為民間支付一個很重要的這個工具它是自然形成的就是說在確實剛才委員提到就是說在網路世界裡面當我某些國人他自有能力然後透過這個方式去"},{"start":408.368,"end":424.303,"text":"購買或是去轉換這個時候確實我們在整個在我們這個法規管理上面是未來要再努力的地方因為我們現在是希望針對說我們現在納管這些業者然後再來就是對於一般民眾我們加大他的保護的範圍是啦我知道你這個立法的目的但是我剛剛講的這些疑慮是要先想的是"},{"start":432.52,"end":446.951,"text":"我個人認為未來美國的穩定幣一定會透過各種途徑進到台灣來台灣的人也不會去拒絕全世界沒有人會拒絕美金因為美金的流通性跟它的可信度都是現在世界所有貨幣裡面最強的"},{"start":447.571,"end":467.805,"text":"你坦白講 你問我說你是要持有新台幣還是要持有美金如果我有選擇方便的話如果方便的話我當然希望持有美金那我還沒有匯率的我還不會規避匯率的問題啊我們的保險業也不用買那麼多的那麼多的這個在外國投資的時候要買那麼多的這個平衡保險啊不用避那麼多險"},{"start":469.653,"end":483.289,"text":"那這些問題馬上就會來所以我是認為說定這個東西非定不可確實因為時代來了你不改變不行但是很多問題要先想清楚你M2的供給"},{"start":484.468,"end":506.634,"text":"如果美國這邊一比一他是鎖美國公債跟美金而且要鎖住那麼多才能發行等量的穩定幣那美國公債就是因為美國政府要讓他賣他的公債他認為他的美國公債的這個價值跟他的美金現鈔是一樣的這我們能理解台灣的穩定幣發行如果不要鎖百分之百的你說資產資產怎麼估資產有貶值的問題"},{"start":511.636,"end":538.086,"text":"那將來我的這個這個穩定幣的發行結果我的資產事實上我發行的時候百分之百那漲跌的時候要怎麼調整再來如果我跌的時候我的穩定幣還是發行在那邊那我的貨幣的總體供給就增加出來了喔另外在流通的時候我不用信貸幣交易我用穩定幣交易整體的貨如果你把它當作支付的工具當作貨幣的一個形式的話那整體的貨幣供給也是增加的"},{"start":538.826,"end":565.788,"text":"委員剛才講的這些都是非常非常深入的問題就是開放這樣一個新的業種以後會產生什麼樣的影響這其實就是我們在日常開會還有找專家學者在仔細研商因為未來我們要定那個那個穩定幣的管理辦法包括剛才這些全部都要考慮這些問題而且我看到當然不是你的問題法務部的那個草案說到那個三年以上十年以下然後罰兩千萬到"},{"start":568.257,"end":572.462,"text":"幾千萬到兩億這個如果給你出一個包動輒金額是幾百億幾千億的你罰那麼一點點這樣夠嗎"},{"start":577.739,"end":598.557,"text":"這個罰則的部分當然我們有提出來當然就是也要社會有共識看要做什麼而且這個如果出包那個包子大要小心所以它背後的一些封控像剛剛包括一些準備資產像剛剛委員提到那個準備資產的穩定程度還有對外的揭露還有一些平常的調控監控這都是"},{"start":600.018,"end":627.125,"text":"這個索性是國外已經有一段時間的經驗了那我們這部分我們剛好在後面再進來的人比較多可以參考啦我是覺得我個人如果我的理解是多參考一下啦當然有一併要這麼急嘛這是一個考慮我們其實沒有急我剛剛跟委員講說我們但是不要落後我覺得再提醒你一次一個問題喔前一陣子光是這個比特幣被震盪的那一下因為槓桿的關係很多人被清倉強制平倉就Clean"},{"start":628.585,"end":646.699,"text":"這也是剛剛有委員提到說要不要開放這些演商的商品我們就非常謹慎是我要提醒你我再次提醒你台灣人的特性賺錢沒有人會感謝政府集體賠的錢就要找你算帳找你負責你一定要記得這個特性謝謝謝謝委員的提醒謝謝好 謝謝吳委員接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時8分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。請問美國穩定幣現在進行到的程度是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：美國穩定幣就是剛剛講的天才法案，據我所知，還在做最後的確認，不過美元的穩定幣現在在市場上已經是主流了，他們納管的部分好像還有最後一個立法程序要完成。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以已經先走了，然後法律還沒有完備？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，過去USDT或USDC這兩個是早就已經存在的東西。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實我個人認為過去貨幣的發行是國家的主權行為，如果這個穩定幣和美元掛鉤是1比1，然後讓渡給私人去發行，這是把國家的主權行為下放，這裡會產生一個問題，貨幣總供給量（M2）會不會因為這樣子而增加？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分可能要請央行來回答比較精準，因為央行有做過這個評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道他們的答案就是不把這個算入貨幣嘛！但是我覺得在整體、在市面上流通的貨幣就是會增加，請朱副總裁回答。"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實這個問題我們最近在研議中，流程還滿複雜的，譬如說在發行之後，發行商賣出去所收到的款項他怎麼用，如果他把它當作存款，這個存款的項目是在貨幣供給的項目裡面，可是現在穩定幣發行的又可以當交易媒介，如果從這個部分來看，它有一個影響在這邊。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！它的M2……"],["朱副總裁美麗：另外，還有一個流向，他並不存回銀行體系作為存款，我們說他可以有高品質的金融資產，所以他可能去買債券等等，當買債券時，錢就沒有流回銀行體系，所以會有影響。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道。假設他去買債券，問題是穩定幣的取得者，他要如何使用穩定幣，不是你能夠控制的啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是！穩定幣的發行就在穩定幣的幣圈流通……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，但是……"],["朱副總裁美麗：在幣圈當然它就有交易的功能。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！你同時有交易的功能，問題是你……"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是、不是……"],["吳委員秉叡：國家貨幣的總供給量M2本來是受控的，但是你再加上這個東西之後，這個東西的數量，你有辦法總計在裡面嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我現在這樣講，我先講後面的流通，再來談您講的總計。如果它在幣圈流通，這就是一個交易的媒介，這邊就牽涉到我們要不要把穩定幣的交易功能納入貨幣供給的項目，如果你不納入或納入，這邊就形成問題……"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！你到底是納入，還是不納入？"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，因為在計算貨幣供給有M1、M2……"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！我就是問你總體貨幣供給。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，那你要看要不要列入，因為你從M1這邊拿了貨幣去買，所以你如果要納入，它可能就跑到M2，就有一增一減。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！這個增加會產生什麼樣的後果呢？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，還有一個，這是第一層。第二層是幣商拿到錢，我剛才講他如果存回……"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛你有回答了，我是說幣商拿到錢，他要怎麼使用，不是你可以控制的嘛！"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是！會影響到貨幣供給。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：所以這個影響增減，我們說這樣看起來，目前沒辦法說是增還是減，要去看他們怎麼用，那個有一個流程，這是我們目前的邏輯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我剛剛說為什麼我會擔憂這個東西，我個人認為如果M2整體是增加的，那國家的主權行為，本來你的貨幣供給有一定程度是在央行的控制之下，如果這個供給增加太多會造成通貨膨脹啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：不只是通貨膨脹，會影響到我們講的貨幣政策效果中另外一個利率水準。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，另外一個問題，你同不同意美國的穩定幣在臺灣使用，當作美金的支付工具？這是國家跟國家之間的主權行為啊！這個你們有討論過嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我想是這樣，如果美國發行的穩定幣要進入臺灣市場，金管會有些規定，應該是看他們的規定。"],["吳委員秉叡：有一些他們規定不到，有一些就在網路上直接支付掉了。網路上直接支付掉了，也不是你們能夠控制的，那怎麼辦？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我覺得現在好像即使沒規定，也是有這個問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員說明一下，我們在穩定幣裡面分兩部分，一個是臺灣發行，就是本國募集，這個當然沒問題。再來，就是國外已經募集、已經存在的話，如果要在我們未來的虛擬資產服務業裡面進行交易，這要經過我們的同意，等於說他要經過我們的同意，還包括追蹤他的……"],["吳委員秉叡：主委，我剛剛的問題，如果他進來有經過你的同意，這個還比較好控制。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對！"],["吳委員秉叡：因為現在是網路無國界，你根本就控制不到他，他直接就在網路上支付了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實是……"],["吳委員秉叡：臺灣的政府，即中華民國政府要不要承認是一回事，事實上這已經發生了，就像我在總質詢的時候，經濟部長跟我說臺灣不接受中國的電商經營，問題是拼多多、淘寶的貨品已經大量進來，你不承認但它是存在的，不是說我不承認它就不存在。我現在的問題是，美國的穩定幣看起來臺灣非接受不可，除非你要跟美國對幹，但是我覺得不太可能、我們中華民國政府不太可能，如果它在臺灣做支付，這一些就會變成我剛剛講的廣義的國家貨幣總體供給有可能會不受控制，它的金額會增加很多，當然這個金額增加很多、M2增加很多的時候，另外一個考慮的問題，會不會造成整個通貨膨脹的問題，等於是廣義的貨幣流通在臺灣就增加了很多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這跟委員提到的，比如說，穩定幣從過去這一段時間在國際上使用確實有一個狀況，就是有些國家的民眾對自己本國的貨幣反而信心不夠，他會希望持有穩定幣，反而成為民間支付一個很重要的工具。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是自然形成的，確實如剛剛委員提到的，在網路世界裡面，當某些國人自己有能力，然後透過這個方式去購買或是去轉換貨幣，這個時候確實我們在整個法規管理上面是未來要再努力的地方，我們現在是希望能納管這些業者，再來就是對於一般民眾能加大保護的範圍。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦！我知道你立法的目的，但我剛剛講的這些疑慮是要先想的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我個人認為未來美國的穩定幣，一定會透過各種途徑進到臺灣，臺灣人也不會去拒絕，全世界沒有人會拒絕美金啦！因為美金的流通性跟可信度都是現在世界所有貨幣裡面最強的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，它是國際的主流貨幣，對。"],["吳委員秉叡：坦白講，你問我說你是要持有新臺幣，還是要持有美金？如果我有選擇、如果方便的話，我當然希望持有美金，還不用規避匯率的問題，我們保險業也不用買那麼多的債務國投資來平衡保險，不用避那麼多險，這些問題馬上就會來。所以我認為這個東西非訂不可，確實因為時代來了，你不改變不行，但是很多問題要先想清楚，你M2的供給，如果美國這邊是一比一，它是鎖美國公債跟美金，而且要鎖住那麼多才能發行等量的穩定幣，美國公債就是因為美國政府當然要賣他的公債，他認為美國公債的價值跟美金現鈔是一樣的，這我們能理解。臺灣的穩定幣發行如果不要鎖百分之百，你說資產，資產怎麼估啊？資產有貶值的問題，將來穩定幣的發行，事實上我發行的時候是百分之百，當漲跌的時候要怎麼調整？再來，如果跌的時候，穩定幣還是發行在那邊，貨幣的總體供給就增加出來囉！另外，在流通的時候，我不用新臺幣交易，而用穩定幣交易，如果你把它當作支付工具、當作貨幣形式的話，那整體貨幣供給也是增加的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛才講的這些都是非常非常深入的問題，就是開放這樣新的業種以後會產生什麼樣的影響，這其實就是我們在日常開會，還有找專家學者再仔細研商，未來我們要訂定穩定幣的管理辦法，包括剛剛提的這些，全部都要考慮到這些問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然這不是你的問題，法務部草案的罰則說那個處三年以上、十年以下，然後罰幾千萬到兩億，這個如果給你出一個包，動輒金額是幾百億、幾千億，你罰那麼一點點這樣夠嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。在罰則的部分，我們有提出來，當然也要社會有共識，看看要做什麼處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：而且這個如果出包，那個包之大，要小心啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以其背後的風控，包括一些準備資產，像剛剛委員提到準備資產的穩定程度、對外的揭露，還有一些平常的調控、監控，所幸國外已經有一段時間的經驗，剛好我們是後面再進來的人比較多可以拿來參考……"],["吳委員秉叡：我個人的理解是多參考一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["吳委員秉叡：有一定要這麼急嗎？這是一個考慮。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟委員講，我們其實沒有急，但是不要落後。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二，我再提醒你一個問題，前一陣子，光是比特幣被震盪的那一下，因為槓桿的關係，很多人被清倉、強制平倉，就是clearing out。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這也是剛剛有委員提到的，要不要開放這些衍生性商品，這我們會非常謹慎的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是！我再次提醒你臺灣人的特性，賺錢沒有人會感謝政府，集體賠錢就要找你算帳、找你負責，你一定要記得這個特性，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f001b74319b7f585f8655b9b7d9df2795fe935765bd47f54651db95e054bd3dacb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:57:22 - 10:14:06","影片長度":"00:16:44","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T09:57:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T10:14:06+08:00","duration":1004,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.23346875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.418468750000001,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":6.915968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.94284375,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.90034375,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.80284375,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.64909375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.93596875,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.38971875,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.962843750000005,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.52409375,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.07659375,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.74721875,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.17659375000001,"end":94.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.11159375000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.78221875000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.64284375000001,"end":107.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.24096875000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.32096875,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.55284375000001,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.27346875,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.69409375,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.58721875,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.89346875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.99471875,"end":151.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.19721875000002,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.20096875000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.59284375000001,"end":168.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.02596875,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.06346875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.95346875,"end":175.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.51846875,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.90221875,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.47159375,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.62284375000002,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.30159375000002,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.70659375000002,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.02284375000002,"end":209.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.51534375,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.10909375,"end":202.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.33159375000002,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.35971875,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.65034375000002,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.89471875,"e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出席一個記者會這個活動裡面特別提到了健康台灣深耕計畫五年要有"},{"start":26.022,"end":35.967,"text":"489億那另外一個你提到了健康幣那本席就要就叫你就是目前這一個健康台灣深耕計畫五年489億請問預算編在哪裡送進來立法院了沒"},{"start":41.009,"end":50.335,"text":"我們是逐年提報這個預算那今年是已經有在這個預算審查已經完成的那明年的那個預算我們也編在115年度的這個預算書裡頭"},{"start":53.479,"end":80.246,"text":"那你的健康币是编在这个深耕台湾计划里面吗不是这个是刚刚提到的那个深耕计划是给相关的这个医院还有诊所区域性的还有这个工会有些工会也得到这个计划所以他们是去做包含这个优化医事人员职业条件包含这个智慧医疗的发展"},{"start":80.946,"end":106.824,"text":"包含人才的培育等等這些所以不包含健康幣嗎不包含行政機關要執行的本席就要就教你你所對外宣布的健康幣明年第一季就要實施但是我們看一下現在的預算不知道你是編在哪一個屬下面因為找不到那之前我們辦公室也有問就說還沒編還沒編明年第一季就要上路"},{"start":107.444,"end":127.57,"text":"跟委員報告是說我們這個健康幣我們主要主管機關做的是那個資訊的這個架構所以不用錢對那以我們以我們本來的科技計畫在執行我們本來就有一些行政的預算在這個你不用新增預算嗎你不是說很好康就是還可以抽腳踏車還有很多的獎沒有"},{"start":128.03,"end":150.362,"text":"那個東西是要跟民間合作的啦所以你意思是健康幣的推動所有的規劃到執行你完全不用新增預算還是在我們本來的預算裡頭去執行那個資訊跟委員報告就是說簡單的講我們會第一個他的那個健康幣的收集是用我們現在的健康存摺"},{"start":151.423,"end":168.8,"text":"去扩充功能所以他等於我們每年都有然後所有的獎項都是廠商捐你們都不用變預算然後我們是跟這個合作第一階段明年是第一階段而已那麼跟業者民間來合作比如說他願意那你明年的第一季預計什麼時候實施"},{"start":170.443,"end":185.159,"text":"现在还在下街当中没有那么快所以计划还不够完整还没有办法完成那你什么时候可以完整本席很想了解你整个健康币的连体之前我们整个的规划就会出来了"},{"start":185.359,"end":208.851,"text":"年底12月嗎那麻煩你這一個整個健康幣的執行的相關的計畫就是要送給這個委員會我們要了解你怎麼執行還有包括你的預算邊緣你剛剛是說不會增加任何新增的計畫因為很快委員會可能就要排預算審查了那你如果沒有這一筆預算的話那你真的就要百分之百去募款了你就沒有這筆錢了"},{"start":209.731,"end":219.278,"text":"我們會來努力用我們本來的預算裡面在科技的部因為這個就是一些科技平台的建立用我們原本的一些預算來所以不新增預算"},{"start":241.212,"end":260.406,"text":"接下來我要問這個防疫的問題今天來的各部會的代表跟那個邊境防疫有關的房檢署還有這個關務署請上台我們可以看到蘇貞昌院長前院長他在非洲豬瘟開始之後呢他其實也發了一篇的臉書"},{"start":261.647,"end":286.086,"text":"那我感覺他是憂心忡忡覺得是不是大家螺絲鬆了所以趕快提醒大家因為他好不容易他當時他最驕傲的政績就是守住把非洲豬瘟擋在境外所以大家都印象深刻這個當時鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的時候他跑到他衝到這個陶基然後彪罵了十多分鐘這個我不曉得在座的這個官員有沒有人在現場"},{"start":287.267,"end":309.508,"text":"他就是要求一定要嚴格把關那結果呢現在是邊境破防喔就是讓這一個非洲豬瘟進來了那現在當然就是要檢討就是怎麼樣可以去防堵喔那我給各位看一個網友他PO的這個PO文喔這個是2025年6月23號這個網友呢看起來是個炫耀文他說他從馬來西亞回台灣"},{"start":311.77,"end":334.501,"text":"那他直接一下飛機之後呢他跟這個寫請的保全表明說我不要豬瘟的檢查然後這個保全呢就直接讓他走旁邊出去了一點刁難都沒有他說他本來擔心會被阻擾所以呢還是先什麼手機開好這個防檢署的梭子結果完全沒有用到就順利的過關"},{"start":336.282,"end":363.88,"text":"那他还教大家说下一次从朱温疫区回台湾大家不用当冤大头排队检查手提行李而他引用的是113年12月防检署的副署长徐荣斌受访的时候他说非洲朱温手检站针对高风险国家旅客手检皮包没有强制旅客可以拒绝"},{"start":364.76,"end":388.746,"text":"那這個就是最大的漏洞啊你若從疫區回來的手檢包都不用這個認真檢查然後旅客說我不想被檢查然後就從旁邊出去然後你僱用的就是保全人員你這樣子的一個執行的強度難怪現在非洲豬瘟從邊境就進來了嘛"},{"start":390.126,"end":419.506,"text":"就是這樣子啊我要問各位是那這樣的一個狀況你現在還是這樣子嗎現在非洲諸位已經被發現了就跑到台灣來了你們的邊境還是這麼的鬆散嗎是不是你根本沒有法源沒有強制力所以他的手簡報即使是從這一個高風險疫區回來的只要旅客表明說我不想要被檢查你也沒有法源所以沒有強制力顧的還是只是保全而已是不是這樣"},{"start":420.386,"end":449.245,"text":"報告委員 我覺得這個的可能在現實狀況有些文字上或口語上會有扭曲但以現在來講他一定要經過手檢區所以之前就是有鬆動嘛沒有百分之百嘛手檢區一定有分流分流就是說39個非洲疫區的國家他一定強制性是啊 馬來西亞是不是馬來西亞是 是非洲那他這一個人PO上去他就說他就是馬來西亞回來啊他就不用被手檢了因為他說我不要被手檢了"},{"start":450.746,"end":476.103,"text":"以現在目前來講我覺得這絕對不可能所以回溯這則新聞或者是這一個的報導是不是實在其實還有必要再追查看看有必要再追查 你們自己去問你們的房檢署副署長之前這一位徐副署長其實一直都沒有鬆懈其實7年來都沒有鬆懈那這個是怎麼回事這個是真真實實 人家PO在網路上面講得非常的具體"},{"start":477.083,"end":493.662,"text":"網路常常有自由的言論那你們去查這是不是假消息因為這個已經不是一個人講了喔那這個就是之前你們根本沒有一個法源的情況底下你又沒有強制執行嘛之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候我知道他非常的嚴格所以是百分之百"},{"start":494.443,"end":508.274,"text":"但你們後來就鬆掉了嘛鬆掉之後就變成這樣的情況嘛就是尊重旅客自由意願他是高風險國家你還尊重他個人意願然後說不想檢查就走而且他引用的就是你們自己官員講的話"},{"start":510.055,"end":525.604,"text":"這個你們要好好檢討那你現在到底有沒有法源你是用什麼樣的一個強制性要求他百分之百到位行政命令嗎還是什麼你們之前的副署長是這樣講的沒有強制他是不是找不到法源還是怎麼回事我跟委員報告其實在機場裡面"},{"start":526.311,"end":555.192,"text":"我們的通關檢查是關稅所有的行李不管你是手提或者是托育行李全部都要海關經過但為了非洲豬瘟所以又增加的關卡就是在於海關檢查之前來個手檢區那這個手檢區的目的是如果你經過這裡檢查有遺異或者是豬肉的產品你馬上棄置那這個不會受罰但是如果你到了海關那裡檢查那百分之百一定受罰所以原來的用意上是讓"},{"start":556.433,"end":582.263,"text":"所有的遊客是等於double check你自己再確認看看那如果你有違規的產品那就利用這個時候趕快把它丟棄對 那至於說法院那因為我們的作為都是叫做行政作為那假設需要加強它的法規的一個力度我覺得這個部分我們都適時可以做研討但是在機場的檢驗事實上確實這個它有一定的法規好 那我現在就正式問你"},{"start":583.343,"end":600.513,"text":"在現在你也沒有一個很明確的法源情況底下如果有遊客是從高風險區域回來然後你要檢查他的手簡報他挑戰你說你沒有法源就是我可以拒絕我拒絕你檢查我的手簡報可以或不可以"},{"start":601.453,"end":615.584,"text":"以目前來講 我們都行政勸導希望你能夠通過假設他執意要過 到了海關的檢查被檢出 對不起 就是20萬我們就開立20萬我知道 但是他如果很僥倖海關也不會100%檢查"},{"start":618.632,"end":637.174,"text":"他就僥倖通關了所以你的意思就是說我們現在在前面的這個手減包的部分是真的沒有法源也沒有辦法百分之百強制嗎包括委員我們現在目前的運作是假設這個遊客他拒絕那可能我們就通知末端的海關對這個人要加強"},{"start":638.115,"end":659.157,"text":"我知道所以你現在告訴我是說他是真的沒有法源你們這個副署長也沒有講是行政我們現在都是行政措施所以沒有辦法到非常強制性的那我現在就問你怎麼樣可以做到非常強制性的高風險的民眾回來這個手撿包要百分之百接受檢驗要怎麼樣可以做到"},{"start":659.617,"end":674.836,"text":"如果我們修法相對我們要有正式的人力投入到裡面去所以你們做不到我們現在完全沒有對沒有多餘的人力去做那蘇貞昌時代你們是怎麼做到的就是由這個就是由這個守檢區是那你們那時候會讓遊客是可以說我拒絕嗎"},{"start":677.233,"end":694.622,"text":"如果遇到拒絕的 你們當時是怎麼執行的我剛剛跟委員報告絕多數的遊客都會配合這遇到這種少數要挑戰你公權利的我們就當下都會通知海關的部分針對這個遊客特別關注"},{"start":695.242,"end":715.371,"text":"到海關的時候就要打開這個海關我問一下海關有沒有做到我們財政部的這個關務署這個雙重把關如果他前面他執意現在沒有法源可以要求他強制就是去掃他的手提包到了你的海關他通知你海關就可以百分之百可以攔下來"},{"start":715.951,"end":728.759,"text":"是報告委員就是剛才這邊講的就是手提行李的部分在房檢署這邊是有房檢署這邊去做手檢那有關拖運行李的部分在他上這個行李檢那行李轉盤之前絕對百分之百海關這邊S光檢驗然後如果他有異常的話我們會助檢"},{"start":736.563,"end":753.457,"text":"那住檢旅客領了行李要通過我們的檢查台之前我們就會再過一次X光復檢然後開箱查驗那剛才房檢署這邊提到說如果有拒絕手檢的他們假如有通知假如有通知海關的話海關絕對會去加強然後開箱查驗那之前你們有收到幾件是房檢署通知你們他手檢拒檢然後你們來檢查他的手檢的有幾件"},{"start":766.657,"end":786.478,"text":"這個部分可能我現在沒有資料我們之後再提供 看看我們的機場這邊有沒有收到過這個房間署那房間署呢 你們通報了幾件你們房間署通報幾件要求海關要收檢這個應該不是在我們的"},{"start":790.02,"end":808.627,"text":"這個目標的數據 因為是我們這是當即立即有這樣的狀況就做處理那另外我跟委員報告就是說你們沒有登錄也不知道幾件還是從來根本就沒有通報過沒有連線過這個是因為有加強那就通過那還有一個我們還有一個把關的關卡是在於我們的這個檢疫權"},{"start":811.264,"end":827.12,"text":"檢疫權我知道檢疫權都是在跟海關同一個層級所以現在現在防檢署告訴大家就是說的確你們的這個首檢站他沒有公權力可以要求100%這個旅客你一定要經過這個你們的首檢站把"},{"start":830.883,"end":850.104,"text":"包包打開沒有百分之百的強制按照你的說法就是這樣所以是靠後面的檢疫權或者是你可能未來你再去通知海關要求他打開到目前為止你的確就是沒有一個法源依據要求他必須把皮包打開對不對現在聽起來就是這樣子啊"},{"start":851.105,"end":868.874,"text":"那如果這樣子的話他就是一個漏洞嘛那我要求防檢局你們要盡快把這個漏洞補起來嘛不是說過去是靠蘇貞昌院長因為他很嚴厲他很兇然後要求你們做到然後就趕快去做但是做了這件事情坦白講是沒有法源依據的"},{"start":869.474,"end":885.9,"text":"你們根本不知道他依據什麼來源所以你遇到一個挑戰你公權力的人呢你就沒轍了你真的沒轍委員我還是希望真的這個不能否定因為幾乎所有的都會經過這個手檢區也都會配合做檢查我知道我們現在在檢討漏洞"},{"start":886.4,"end":908.729,"text":"所以當你遇到這一種要挑戰你公權力他硬不給你手檢的時候坦白講你現在就是沒轍嘛你當時的那個防檢署的副署長講的是沒有錯的嘛依法論法他就是找不到一個強而有力的法源說你就是要給我經過那這個你們趕快去補漏洞啊趕快看要修哪一個法令啊按照你的這個防疫的哪一個法"},{"start":909.269,"end":927.837,"text":"就是說因為他是從高風險地區來的你就必須強制的百分之百手減嘛你不能是靠後面最後海關啊海關號驗的也很多啊那你這個已經是高風險就應該是高強度的查驗啊你不允許讓人家去挑戰你的公權力嘛好不好好那你這個多久可以演繹出來因為這是盡快補破網不是"},{"start":932.911,"end":958.163,"text":"為什麼用保全就是在機場的其他的檢驗CIQS都有正式人力那沒有給我們正式人力在這個首檢區執行所以支持我們經費用保全的方式來執行這件事情那假設真的要落實納入到我們CIQS的整個的流程裡面那絕對是要正式的人力跟資金投入在這個裡面但以我目前來講是"},{"start":960.771,"end":984.464,"text":"是確實是要以有限有的編制上來處理這件事情我要你們把漏洞補起來無論是你要立法百分之百的補這個漏洞由防檢局來做或者是要求變成是財政部的海關你必須做成是第二道防線你們一定要百分之百SOP的通報就你要挑戰我公權 我從海關擋你那你這個整個要建置起來啊"},{"start":985.004,"end":997.793,"text":"要不然你這個我看得很明顯它就是一個漏洞好不好這個漏洞一定要補起來才不會讓非洲豬人下一次繼續從這邊進來好不好要嚴格的執行 謝謝好 謝謝我又宣告一下我們到廖偉祥召委宣導結束之後"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我要先請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["王委員育敏：因為今天是衛環委員會，部長來還是不能坐在旁邊，所以我先問部長，昨天您跟賴總統有出席一個記者會，這個活動裡面特別提到健康臺灣深耕計畫5年要有489億，另外你提到了健康幣，本席要就教你，目前健康臺灣深耕計畫5年489億，請問預算編在哪裡？送進來立法院了沒？"],["石部長崇良：我們是逐年提報預算，今年已經有包含在預算審查已經完成的部分，明年的預算我們也編在115年度的預算書裡頭。"],["王委員育敏：那健康幣是編在這個深耕臺灣計畫裡面嗎？"],["石部長崇良：不是，剛剛提到的深耕計畫是給相關的醫院還有區域性的診所，還有一些工會也會得到這個計畫的補助，他們是去做包含優化醫事人員執業條件、智慧醫療的發展、人才的培育等等，所以那個都不是我們主管機關……"],["王委員育敏：所以不包含健康幣？"],["石部長崇良：不包含行政機關要執行的。"],["王委員育敏：本席要就教你，你對外宣布健康幣明年第一季就要實施，但是我們看一下現在的預算，不知道你是編在哪一個署下面，因為找不到。之前本席辦公室也有問，你們就說還沒編，如果還沒編，為什麼說明年第一季就要上路？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，關於健康幣，主管機關做的主要是資訊的架構，那個……"],["王委員育敏：所以不用錢？不用預算？"],["石部長崇良：那是以我們本來的科技計畫在執行，我們本來就有一些行政的預算在這個……"],["王委員育敏：你不用新增預算嗎？你不是說「很好康」，就是還可以抽腳踏車，還有很多的獎品？"],["石部長崇良：沒有，那些東西是要跟民間合作的，不是我們去編……"],["王委員育敏：所以你的意思是關於健康幣的推動，從所有的規劃到執行完全不用新增預算？"],["石部長崇良：還是在我們本來的預算裡頭去執行，簡單來講，第一個，健康幣的蒐集是用現在的健康存摺去擴充功能而我們每年都有健康存摺的預算。"],["王委員育敏：然後所有的獎項都是廠商捐，你們都不用編預算？"],["石部長崇良：我們是合作，明年是第一階段而已，跟業者、民間來合作，比如說他願意……"],["王委員育敏：你明年的第一季預計什麼時候實施？"],["石部長崇良：現在還在洽接當中，沒有那麼快。"],["王委員育敏：所以計畫還不夠完整？"],["石部長崇良：還沒有辦法完成。"],["王委員育敏：你什麼時候可以完整？本席很想了解整個健康幣的執行。"],["石部長崇良：年底之前我們整個規劃就會出來了。"],["王委員育敏：年底是12月嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對！"],["王委員育敏：好，麻煩你將整個健康幣執行的相關計畫送給委員會，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：會。"],["王委員育敏：我們要了解你怎麼執行，還有包括你的預算編列，你剛剛說不會增加任何新增的計畫，因為委員會可能很快就要排預算審查了，如果沒有這一筆預算的話，那你真的就要百分之百去募款、你就沒有這筆錢。"],["石部長崇良：我們會努力用我們本來在科技部分的預算，因為這個就是一些科技平臺的建立，用我們原本的一些預算來流用使用。"],["王委員育敏：所以不新增預算嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：但你必須交代是在原來哪些預算，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：對，會！"],["王委員育敏：因為這樣可能會排擠到你原來要做的事情。"],["石部長崇良：再請委員支持我們相關的……"],["王委員育敏：我希望你們交計畫以及你的預算來自於哪裡，這些都要清清楚楚，我們才可以監督、才知道你這個計畫是用口號還是真的可以訴諸行動去實踐，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：是，好！"],["王委員育敏：部長請回。","接下來我要問防疫的問題，今天來的各部會代表跟邊境防疫有關的防檢署還有關務署請上臺。","我們可以看到蘇貞昌前院長在非洲豬瘟開始之後也發了一篇臉書，我感覺他是憂心忡忡、覺得是不是大家螺絲鬆了，所以趕快提醒大家，因為他好不容易、他當時最驕傲的政績就是守住並把非洲豬瘟擋在境外，所以大家都印象深刻！當時鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的時候，他衝到桃機飆罵了十多分鐘，我不曉得在座的官員有沒有人在現場，他要求一定要嚴格把關！結果現在是邊境破防讓非洲豬瘟進來了，現在當然就是要檢討怎麼樣可以防堵。","我給各位看一個網友的po文，這個在2025年6月23號，這個網友的文章看起來是個炫耀文，他說他從馬來西亞回臺灣，他一下飛機之後跟協勤的保全表明說，我不要豬瘟的檢查，然後這個保全就直接讓他走旁邊出去了，一點刁難都沒有，他說他本來擔心會被阻撓，所以還事先手機開好防檢署的說詞，結果完全沒有用到就順利的過關，他還教大家說，下一次從豬瘟疫區回臺灣，大家不用當冤大頭、排隊檢查手提行李，而他引用的是113年12月防檢署副署長徐榮彬受訪的時候說，非洲豬瘟手檢站針對高風險國家旅客手檢皮包沒有強制、旅客可以拒絕。","那這個就是最大的漏洞啊，如果從疫區回來的手檢包都不用認真檢查，旅客說我不想被檢查然後就從旁邊出去，你僱用的就是保全人員，你這樣子的執行強度難怪現在非洲豬瘟從邊境就進來了嘛，就是這樣子啊！我要問各位，現在還是這樣子的狀況嗎？現在非洲豬瘟已經被發現了、跑到臺灣來了，你們的邊境還是這麼的鬆散嗎？是不是你根本沒有法源、沒有強制力？所以他的手檢包即使是從高風險疫區回來的，只要旅客表明說我不想要被檢查，你也沒有法源，所以沒有強制力，僱的還只是保全而已，是不是這樣？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我覺得現實狀況可能在文字上或口語上會有些扭曲，但以現在來講，他一定要經過手檢區，而且我們手檢區……"],["王委員育敏：所以之前就是有鬆動，沒有百分之百嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：手檢區一定有分流，分流就是39個非洲豬瘟疫區的國家一定強制性。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，馬來西亞是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：馬來西亞是非洲豬瘟國家。"],["王委員育敏：那這個人po上去，他說他就是從馬來西亞回來，他就不用被手檢，因為他說我不要被手檢。"],["杜署長麗華：以目前來講，我覺得這絕對不可能，所以回溯這個新聞或者是這個報導是不是實在，其實還有必要再追查看看。"],["王委員育敏：有必要再追查，你自己去問你們的防檢署之前這位徐副署長。"],["杜署長麗華：其實一直都沒有鬆懈，其實7年來都沒有鬆懈。"],["王委員育敏：這個是怎麼回事？"],["杜署長麗華：對，我們再進一步的瞭解。"],["王委員育敏：這個是真真實實，人家po在網路上面講得非常的具體。"],["杜署長麗華：網路常常有自由的言論。"],["王委員育敏：你們去查這是不是假消息。"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們去查。"],["王委員育敏：因為這已經不是一個人講了，這就是之前你們在根本沒有法源的情況底下沒有強制執行，之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候，我知道他非常的嚴格。"],["杜署長麗華：是，他非常嚴格。"],["王委員育敏：所以是百分之百，但你們後來就鬆掉了，鬆掉之後就變成這樣的情況，就是尊重旅客自由意願，他是高風險國家，你還尊重他個人意願，然後說不想檢查就走，而且他引用的就是你們自己官員講的話，這個你們要好好檢討。"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["王委員育敏：你現在到底有沒有法源？你是用什麼樣的強制性要求他百分之百到位，行政命令還是什麼？你們之前的副署長是這樣講的，沒有強制！他是不是找不到法源，還是怎麼回事？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，其實在機場裡面，我們的通關檢查是關稅，所有的行李不管是手提或者是托運行李，全部都要經過海關，但為了非洲豬瘟所以又增加了一個關卡，就是在海關檢查之前來一個手檢區，那這個手檢區的目的是，如果你經過這裡檢查有疑義或者是豬肉的產品，你馬上棄置就不會受罰，但是如果你到了海關那裡檢查，那百分之百一定受罰。所以原來的用意是，讓所有的遊客double check自己再確認看看，如果有違規的產品就利用這個時候趕快把它丟棄。至於法源，因為我們的作為都叫做行政作為，假設需要加強法規的力度，我覺得這個部分我們都可以適時做研討，但是在機場的檢驗確實有一定的法規規定。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我現在就正式問你，現在你在一個沒有很明確法源的情況底下，如果有遊客是從高風險區域回來，然後你要檢查他的手檢包，他挑戰你說，你沒有法源、我可以拒絕，我拒絕你檢查我的手檢包，可以或不可以？"],["杜署長麗華：以目前來講，我們都行政勸導，希望民眾能夠通過手檢區。"],["王委員育敏：如果他還是……"],["杜署長麗華：假設他執意要過，到了海關的檢查被檢出，對不起，就是20萬，我們就開立20萬。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是他如果很僥倖，海關也不會百分之百檢查，他就僥倖通關了。所以你的意思就是說，我們現在在前面的這個手檢包部分是真的沒有法源、也沒有辦法百分之百強制嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，我們現在目前的運作是，假設這個遊客拒絕，那可能我們就通知末端的海關對這個人要加強檢查。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，所以你現在告訴我的是，這是真的沒有法源，你們這個副署長也沒有講錯？"],["杜署長麗華：我們現在都是行政措施。"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有辦法到非常強制性的？我現在就問你，怎麼樣可以做到非常強制性的，高風險民眾回來的這個手檢包要百分之百接受檢驗，要怎麼樣可以做到？"],["杜署長麗華：如果我們修法，相對我們要有正式的人力投入到裡面去。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們做不到？"],["杜署長麗華：對，我們現在完全沒有多餘的人力去做。"],["王委員育敏：那蘇貞昌時代你們是怎麼做到的？"],["杜署長麗華：就是由這個手檢區。"],["王委員育敏：你們那時候會讓遊客可以拒絕嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我就說我們這個是行政指導。"],["王委員育敏：如果遇到拒絕的，你們當時是怎麼執行的？"],["杜署長麗華：我剛剛跟委員報告，絕大多數的遊客都會配合……"],["王委員育敏：對，遇到這種少數要挑戰你公權力的呢？"],["杜署長麗華：假設少數要這樣，我們當下都會通知海關針對這個遊客特別關注……"],["王委員育敏：到海關的時候就要打開？"],["杜署長麗華：對，一定打開！"],["王委員育敏：海關部分我問一下，海關有沒有做到？財政部關務署，關於雙重把關，如果他前面執意現在沒有法源可以強制要求掃他的手提包，到了你們海關，他通知你，海關就可以百分之百攔下來？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是，報告委員，關於剛才這邊講的手提行李部分，在防檢署這邊是由防檢署這邊去做手檢；有關托運行李的部分，在它上行李轉盤之前，海關這邊絕對百分之百以X光檢驗，如果它有異常的話，我們會助檢，當旅客領了行李要通過我們的檢查臺之前，我們就會再過一次X光複檢，然後開箱查驗。那剛才防檢署這邊提到說，如果有拒絕手檢的，假如他們有通知海關的話，海關絕對會去加強，然後開箱查驗。"],["王委員育敏：那之前你們有收到幾件是防檢署通知你們他拒絕手檢，然後你們來檢查他的手檢有幾件？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：關於這個部分，我現在沒有資料，我們之後再提供，看看我們機場這邊有沒有收過防檢署這邊的通知……"],["王委員育敏：那防檢署呢？你們通報了幾件？"],["杜署長麗華：是，另外我再跟……"],["王委員育敏：你們防檢署通報幾件？要求海關要手檢的部分。"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這個應該不是在我們目標數據裡，因為這是當即、立即有這樣的狀況我們就做處理。另外，我跟委員報告……"],["王委員育敏：你是說你們沒有登錄也不知道幾件，還是從來根本就沒有通報過、沒有連線過？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這個是因為有加強，那就通過，我們還有一個把關的關卡是在我們的檢疫犬。"],["王委員育敏：我知道、我知道……"],["杜署長麗華：檢疫犬跟海關都是在同一個層級……"],["王委員育敏：所以現在防檢署告訴大家，的確你們的手檢站沒有公權力可以百分之百要求旅客經過你們的手檢站一定要把包包打開，沒有百分之百的強制，按照你的說法就是這樣，所以你是靠後面的檢疫犬，或者是可能未來你再去通知海關，要求他打開，到目前為止，你的確就是沒有一個法源依據可以要求他必須把皮包打開，對不對？現在聽起來就是這樣子啊！","如果是這樣子的話，它就是一個漏洞嘛，我要求防檢署要儘快把這個漏洞補起來，不是說過去是靠蘇貞昌院長，因為他很嚴厲、他很兇，他要求你們做到，然後你們就趕快去做，但是做的這件事情，坦白講是沒有法源依據的，你們根本不知道要依據什麼來源，所以你遇到一個挑戰你公權力的人，你就沒轍了，真的沒轍。"],["杜署長麗華：委員，我還是希望……真的，這個不能否定，因為幾乎所有的都會經過手檢區，也都會配合做檢查……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我們現在在檢討漏洞，所以當你遇到這一種要挑戰你公權力，他硬不給你手檢的時候，坦白講，你現在就是沒轍嘛！當時那位防檢署副署長講的是沒有錯的，依法論法，就是找不到一個強而有力的法源說他就是要經過，你們要趕快去補這個漏洞！趕快看要修哪一個法令，按照防疫的哪一個法，因為他是從高風險地區來的，就必須強制百分之百手檢，不能靠最後面的海關啊！海關要驗的也很多，這個已經是高風險，就應該是高強度的查驗，你不能允許人家去挑戰你的公權力嘛，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["王委員育敏：那你多久可以研議出來？儘快補破網。"],["杜署長麗華：不是，為什麼是用保全？就是在機場其他的檢驗、CIQS都有正式的人力，但沒有給我們正式人力在這個手檢區執行，所以支持我們的經費採用保全的方式來執行這件事情，假設真的要落實、納入到我們CIQS整個流程裡面，那絕對是要正式的人力跟資金投入在這裡面，但目前來講，要以現有的編制來處理這件事情，確實需要一點時間。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要你們把漏洞補起來，無論是你要立法，百分之百的補這個漏洞並由防檢署來做，或者是要求財政部的海關必須做成第二道防線，你們一定要百分之百SOP的通報，就是他要挑戰公權力，那就從海關擋他，但這整個要建置起來，不然我看得很明顯，它就是一個漏洞，好不好？這個漏洞一定要補起來，才不會讓非洲豬瘟下一次繼續從這邊進來，好不好？要嚴格的執行，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","委員會宣告一下：到廖偉翔召委詢答結束之後，休息10分鐘。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：接下來請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}},{"id":"164857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00bf1a10ed3fbc8946f253141cf72ece13935765bd47f54651a58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:57:25 - 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請佳榮部長好 林部長請部長早委員長部長 我們這幾天大家都在關心這個川習會那後續的這個APEC會議發展的走向我們代表團在本週二28號已經提前三天抵達韓國了那也比"},{"start":27.492,"end":54.241,"text":"以往更早那相對來說我們也爭取更多的時間依照我們代表團所透露只要有可能的話都會盡量安排相關的這個會面那我想先請教部長就是在明天的這個峰會正式登場之前我們的代表團是否有機會可以順利安排到雙邊的會議那或是有其他非正式的這個會面的機會"},{"start":55.416,"end":82.494,"text":"是 在就是領袖代表方面當然已經有跟一些國家這個討論之後有安排那因為這個也涉及到各方的這個考量我們等這個見面之後自然就會跟這個社會來做報告那至於在會場上比較非正式也有很多的機會可以交談"},{"start":84.555,"end":96.68,"text":"我們也有跟一些國家也有先溝通非正式的方式所以除了正式的雙邊的會談以外也有非正式的交談"},{"start":98.336,"end":124.747,"text":"好 那在這個報導當中我們也看到了我們今年台灣這邊也有積極在爭取能夠參與這個撰稿會議並且預計能夠達成五項的這個文件的發言相信我們在這個會議當中能夠和其他的這個經濟體平等的提出文字的建議那來表達我們台灣的立場並且能夠有機會來參與協商等等"},{"start":127.108,"end":150.126,"text":"那在此我還是請教部長是否我們針對這個部分能夠透露的部分我們在什麼樣的這個議題當中有機會可以提出發言並且能夠發揮比較大的一個影響力是 報告委員因為APEC基本上是採取共識決那我們當然有平等參與的權利之外也有一定的影響力"},{"start":151.227,"end":156.432,"text":"所以對於今年的主題我們都有準備包括倡議另外就是我們的領袖代表也會有發言所以這個部分就是剛剛講的五大議題方面那因為今年特別重視AI就是數位科技的應用"},{"start":170.706,"end":173.549,"text":"那我們也認為台灣在這方面可以貢獻所以也有針對這個提出一個未來這個跟健康照護有關的這個倡議所以我們不只是去參與啦我們也可以在這裡面倡議"},{"start":190.973,"end":207.518,"text":"那部長前幾天我們也看到這個川普總統他去訪問日本那並且與這個高市首相互動非常的熱絡那高市首相也表示他們在會談期間確認台海平和平穩定的"},{"start":207.958,"end":231.258,"text":"一個重要性那高市首相不但要延續先前友台的一個立場在他上任至今也接連在這個日本東協峰會等重要的國際場合呼籲國際要重視台海的一個和平穩定對此我想請教部長我們在這個APEC期間有沒有這個信心能夠和高市首相安排到這個雙邊會談來討論"},{"start":234.52,"end":263.278,"text":"我們與日本之間的這個經濟安全合作的可能有 我們在安排中好那不管是這個川習會還是這個APEC會議後續的發展我們還是希望說我們這個外交部這邊能夠緊密的來掌握相關的訊息那後續我們如果有新的訊息再和部長來做一個討論好那部長您先請為那接續我們邀請這個省副主委"},{"start":272.358,"end":296.62,"text":"副主委早副委員早就這個中共的資訊戰還有宣傳戰來請教我們副主委我們陸委會在這個報告當中提到中方需要藉由這個川習會來經營美中的關係原判中方將與這個川習會重申對台的一個立場並且藉機加大對台宣傳的一個操作"},{"start":298.51,"end":326.514,"text":"我們在這個近期也看到這個有一連串的一個公式包括中國的一個三個八十週那也設立了一個台灣光復紀念日那王滬寧在談話當中也提到統一後有七個更好那還有一個是新華社署名中台文的一個作者連續發表這個促統的相關文章"},{"start":327.657,"end":354.534,"text":"他們不斷的堆疊出這麼多打擊台灣的言論或是在這個十五五的這個規劃建議當中提出要打擊這個台獨牢牢把握這個兩岸的一個關係他想要主導這個想要這個主導權那我想請教這個副主委就是對於中共在這個川習會前密集對台的一個文攻我們這邊有沒有觀察到"},{"start":355.434,"end":376.341,"text":"和中共敘事相同的一個異常帳號有在增加的一個現象另外這個川習會還有APEC會議之後中方會不會有更多的這個以美論或是棄台論的一個操作還是會持續觸統或是打擊台獨作為他們主要的一個宣傳 有沒有可能"},{"start":376.841,"end":396.061,"text":"是 非常謝謝委員的指教那首先您剛提到的就是關於在網路上面有沒有出現異常帳號來進一步的來去渲染相關的這個以美論 棄台論那麼我們會跟這個國安單位特別是國安會還有國安局這邊來密切的在輿情上面來去做關注那這邊跟委員報告確實是有異常的這個現象"},{"start":397.102,"end":414.613,"text":"那我們也關注到他們也開始在利用一些比如說美國比較親中的一些學者啦智庫啦等等去散播一些似是而非的言論然後中方再去擴大這樣子的言論的一個渲染等於就是說利用美國人的嘴來說出中國人想要的這個東西利用美國親中的學者"},{"start":415.353,"end":443.692,"text":"那我們也有關注到像這樣子的這個現象在過往也譬如說在那個Foreign Affairs還有最近大家有關注到Times的這一篇那麼在網路上面來說確實都有一些異常的這個帳號然後會刻意的來加大渲染那渲染的主題大概還包含了像是剛剛您所提到的像以美論棄台論等等然後並且會框稱說你看在川習會的時候已經談到了所謂的這個兩岸同屬一中啦或者是不支持台獨啦但事實上這個有可能只是在會談的過程中"},{"start":445.874,"end":463.225,"text":"習近平提出來但是川普可能不見得會有表態或者是表達不同意但他們可能就會利用這樣子的一個這個去頭去尾的這樣子的方式然後來來進行一個輿論的這個渲染所以我們也會針對這樣的這個情況因為待會就要舉行川習會會不會真的有這樣子這個情形我們都會加以密注好"},{"start":464.042,"end":489.048,"text":"那另外就想針對這個宗教統戰的部分來就叫我們副主委中共滲透我國的這個宗教活動已經行之有年但是在民間這個研究團體團隊指出在去年大概有一萬六千人附中參與這個宗教交流的一個活動那其中有超過一半都是在這個福建省來舉行了"},{"start":490.208,"end":505.423,"text":"那我們陸委會也認為這個隱藏的黑數應該遠遠不止這些那我想請教副主委我們觀察到近期中共對於宗教統戰他的做法是怎麼樣那會有什麼樣的一個特徵或是論述"},{"start":506.264,"end":523.609,"text":"我們是否能夠有什麼方式來反制是 非常謝謝委員的這個指教那首先就是宗教統戰確實是我們不斷來提醒國人應該要注意到的那我們首先還是要表達政府的立場健康有序的各樣的這個交流我們都會予以尊重並且予以鼓勵"},{"start":524.409,"end":542.256,"text":"那在宗教統戰在宗教交流的這一塊來講我們認為如果雙方是針對宗教的教義的延期或者是針對以鬼的這樣子的一種交流的話我們基本上都是非常的鼓勵而且會協助主動協助給予協助但比較遺憾的是我們看到在雙方進行宗教交流的時候往往"},{"start":542.836,"end":560.944,"text":"中方就會放進了一些統戰的元素比如說他會特別去強調這個所謂的兩岸同屬一中啦把媽祖形容為所謂的中國神啦用這樣的這個方式那甚至是去渲染這個包含像是到中國去進行宗教交流就是回家然後兩岸同屬一中兩岸同跟同源"},{"start":561.864,"end":577.757,"text":"這樣子的一些輿論跟這樣子的一種敘述都會在宗教交流的過程中不斷的出現都會不斷的這個出現彷彿是要來進行一種輿論上面的一種洗腦那我們近期還關注到特別的有趣的這個現象也跟委員做一個分享那我們也發現宗教交流以外"},{"start":578.237,"end":598.52,"text":"那他們甚至會開始來擴張一些所謂的產業鏈譬如說在重要的這個宗教的景點啦他們就會來開始有一些這個文旅啦觀光的這樣子的套裝行程喔那在這個套裝行程的過程中甚至也是會夾雜的一些去宣傳中國好棒棒啦或者紅色產業供應鏈等等的這樣子的一些敘事喔更甚至於有趣的來囉"},{"start":599.141,"end":615.698,"text":"他甚至會在進行宗教交流的過程中邀請我們的年輕人去然後來嘗試來進行因緣配對是這非常的妙進行因緣配對那做這樣子的一種可能要透過心靈融合啦或者是來進行一種人緣上面的這樣子的一種統戰的作為這個我們都會後續都會持續的祕訣"},{"start":617.059,"end":642.032,"text":"好 那中國這個國家宗教事務局在上個月他公布一個宗教教職人員網路行為規範那在最後他還聲稱台灣的宗教教職人員也參照本這個規範來執行那我想請教就像這種片面納管我國宗教教職人員的做法是不是也一樣隱含著帶有這個長臂管轄的一個企圖他實際上"},{"start":643.573,"end":660.06,"text":"的這個效果又是什麼這部分副主委是不是簡單說明一下是 謝謝 謝謝委員那確實剛剛您所提到這個長臂管轄用法律這也是我們今天沈伯陽委員現在也到了就是類似的這樣子的一個情況的一樣的這個來進行各式各樣的這個操作在宗教也不放過"},{"start":660.74,"end":687.183,"text":"那我們有特別注意到9月15號公布的這個宗教教職人員網絡行為規範裡面喔那在第二條的地方有提到宗教的網絡行為要接受政府監管要接受政府監管還有社會監管這是非常誇張的事情啦齁那另外第九條裡面甚至還提到了說不能進行民族分裂不能進行民族分裂所以我們會在這個議題上面來講會特別的提醒喔國人在宗教交流的過程中應該還是要注意人身安全然後避免"},{"start":688.163,"end":716.363,"text":"会涉入到这个人生的这个风险来进行国人的这个提醒跟提示那另外针对反制的这个部分来讲的话我们也会特别提醒这个中方那么如果滥加的利用宗教交流来睡醒统战的话那么未来他们到台湾来进行宗教交流的话我们大概也会有相对应的一些这个管理跟作为比如说我们也会要求他们的行程必须要相对的这个单纯或者是他们的团体的成员如果里面有涉及到台办系统"},{"start":717.223,"end":732.158,"text":"統戰系統的話而不是宗教人員的話那麼像這樣子的情況我們也會特別的來予以提醒不應該有這樣的情況的這個出現好 我們台灣的這個民間信仰這個文化盛行那政府在這個處理上的尺度應該要小心拿捏"},{"start":732.919,"end":753.552,"text":"在合理的這個適度情況之下同時能夠防範中共的這種假交流 真統戰的這個目的對於相關審核的機制我們更加精進的話這部分我要請我們陸委會能夠持續關心那也避免這個中共對我長臂管轄的手段的一個操作好 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時57分）謝謝召委。我們有請佳龍部長。"],["主席：好，林部長請。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，這幾天大家都在關心川習會，後續APEC會議發展的走向，我們代表團在本週二（28號）已經提前3天抵達韓國了，也比以往更早，相對來說，我們也爭取更多的時間，依照我們代表團所透露，只要有可能的話都會儘量安排相關的會面。我想先請教部長，在明天的峰會正式登場之前，我們代表團是否有機會可以順利安排到雙邊會議？或是有其它非正式的會面機會？"],["林部長佳龍：是，在領袖代表方面，當然跟一些國家討論之後有安排，因為這也涉及到各方的考量，我們等見面之後自然就會跟國人報告，至於在會場上比較非正式也有很多的機會可以交談，我們跟一些國家也有先以非正式的方式溝通，所以除了正式的、雙邊的會談以外，也有非正式的交談。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，在這個報導當中，我們也看到今年台灣有積極爭取能夠參與撰稿會議，並且預計能夠達成5項文件發言，相信我們在這個會議當中，能夠和其它經濟體平等提出文字建議來表達台灣的立場，並且能夠有機會參與協商等等。在此，我還是請教部長，針對能夠透露的部分，我們在什麼樣的議題當中有機會可以提出發言，並且能夠發揮比較大的影響力？"],["林部長佳龍：是，報告委員，因為APEC基本上是採取共識決，我們當然有平等參與的權利之外，也有一定的影響力，至於今年的主題也都有準備，包括倡議在內。另外，領袖代表也會發言，這部分就是剛剛講的五大議題。因為今年特別重視AI，就是數位科技的應用，我們認為台灣在這方面可以貢獻，並針對這點提出與健康照護有關的倡議，所以我們不只參與，也可以倡議。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，日前川普總統訪問日本，與高市首相互動非常熱絡。高市首相表示，他們在會談期間確認了台海和平穩定的重要性。高市首相不但延續先前友台的立場，從他上任至今，接連在日本東協峰會等重要國際場合呼籲國際重視台海的和平穩定。對此，我想請教部長，有沒有信心能在APEC期間安排與高市首相進行雙邊會談，討論與日本之間的經濟安全合作可能？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們在安排中。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。不管是川習會或APEC會議，後續的發展，希望外交部能緊密掌握相關訊息，後續如果有新的訊息，屆時再和部長做討論。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長您先請回。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：接續邀請沈副主委。","副主委早。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：本席就中共的資訊戰及宣傳戰請教副主委。陸委會在報告中提到，中方需要藉由川習會來經營美中關係，研判中方將於川習會重申對台立場，並藉機加大對台的宣傳操作。我們近期也看到一連串的攻勢，包括中國在三個八十週年設立了台灣光復紀念日；王滬寧在談話當中提到，統一後有七個更好；還有，新華社一位署名鍾台文的作者連續發表促統的相關文章。他們不斷堆疊出這麼多打擊台灣的言論，或是在十五五規劃建議提出打擊台獨，牢牢把握兩岸關係，亦即想要主導權。我想請教副主委，對於中共在川習會前密集對台文攻，陸委會有沒有觀察到與中共敘事相同的異常帳號有增加現象？另外，在川習會及APEC會議之後，中方會不會有更多的疑美論或棄臺論的操作？抑或會持續以促統、打擊台獨，作為他們主要的宣傳？有沒有可能？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員的指教。首先，您剛剛提到在網路上有沒有出現異常帳號，並進一步渲染疑美論、棄臺論？對此，我們會跟國安單位，特別是國安會及國安局密切關注輿情。在此跟委員報告，確實有異常現象！我們關注到他們也開始利用美國一些比較親中的學者、智庫等等，散播一些似是而非的言論，然後中方再去擴大這樣的言論與渲染，等於利用美國人的嘴來說出中國人想要的東西，利用美國親中的學者。我們有關注到過去類似這樣的現象，比如Foreign Affairs，還有最近大家有關注到Times的一篇文章。就網路上來說，確實有一些異常帳號會刻意加大渲染。至於渲染的主題，大概包含了您剛剛所提到的疑美論、棄臺論等等，並誆稱川習會已經談到兩岸同屬一中，或不支持台獨。事實上，這可能只是在會談過程中習近平提出來的，但川普不見得會表態，或表達不同意。他們可能會利用這樣去頭去尾的方式進行輿論的渲染，所以我們會針對這樣的情況……因為待會兒就要舉行川習會，會不會真的有這樣子的情形出現？我們會加以密注。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，針對宗教統戰來就教副主委。中共滲透我國的宗教活動已經行之有年，民間研究團體指出，去年大概有一萬六千人赴中參與宗教交流活動，其中超過一半都在福建省舉行，不過陸委會認為隱藏的黑數應該遠遠不只這些。我想請教副主委，是否觀察到近期中共對於宗教統戰的作法為何？有什麼樣的特徵或論述？我們能以何種方式來反制？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員的指教。首先是宗教統戰，這確實是我們不斷提醒國人應該要注意的。在此，我還是要先表達政府的立場，針對健康、有序的各樣交流，我們都會予以尊重並予以鼓勵。就宗教交流這塊來說，我們認為如果雙方是針對宗教教義的研析，或針對儀軌的交流，我們基本上都非常鼓勵，而且會主動給予協助。比較遺憾的是，我們看到雙方在進行宗教交流時，往往中方就會放進一些統戰元素！譬如會特別強調兩岸同屬一中，把媽祖形容為中國神，用這樣的方式。甚至渲染，像是到中國進行宗教交流就是回家，然後兩岸同屬一中，兩岸同根同源這類的輿論與敘述，都會在宗教交流的過程中不斷出現，彷彿要進行輿論上的洗腦。近期我們還關注到一個特別有趣的現象，在此與委員分享。我們發現除了宗教交流以外，他們甚至會開始擴張一些產業鏈，譬如在重要的宗教景點，他們就會開始有一些文旅、觀光的套裝行程。而在套裝行程過程中，也夾雜了一些宣傳，諸如中國好棒棒或者紅色產業供應鏈等等的敘事。更有趣的來了，現在甚至會在進行宗教交流過程中，邀請我們的年輕人去，然後嘗試進行姻緣配對，這實在非常妙，進行姻緣配對，可能是想透過心靈融合，或者進行人員上的統戰作為，這些我們後續都會持續密注。"],["陳委員俊宇：中國的國家宗教事務局在上個月公布了宗教教職人員網路行為規範，最後還聲稱台灣的宗教教職人員也參照本規範來執行。我想請教，這種片面納管我國宗教教職人員的作法，是不是也隱含並帶有長臂管轄的企圖？實際上的效果又是什麼？這部分是不是請副主委簡單說明一下？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。確實，剛剛您所提到以法律來長臂管轄，沈伯洋委員現在到場了，這是類似的情況，一樣在進行各式各樣的操作，甚至連宗教也不放過。我們有特別注意到9月15號公布的宗教教職人員網絡行為規範第二條提到，宗教的網絡行為要接受政府監管，還有社會監管，這是非常誇張的事情！另外第九條甚至提到不能進行民族分裂，所以就這議題我們要特別提醒國人，在宗教交流過程中，應該還是要注意人身安全，避免涉入人身風險，我們以此來提醒並提示國人。針對反制這部分來說，我們要特別提醒中方，如果濫加利用宗教交流來遂行統戰的話，未來他們到台灣來進行宗教交流，我們大概也會有相對應的管理跟作為，比如要求他們的行程必須要相對單純，或其團體成員若涉及台辦系統、統戰系統，而非宗教人員的話，對這種情況我們也會特別予以提醒，不應該有這樣的情況出現。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。台灣的民間信仰文化盛行，政府在處理的尺度上應該小心拿捏。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是、是。"],["陳委員俊宇：在合理適度情況之下，要同時能夠防範中共假交流真統戰的目的，對於相關審核機制要更加精進，這部分我要請陸委會持續關心，也避免中共對我長臂管轄的手段操作。以上，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好，謝謝。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋代）：謝謝副主委，謝謝陳俊宇委員。","接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00311ddf5a816b3f508220506846d94b49935765bd47f54651a4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:56:39 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早安我想針對的就是在去年6月12號那本席當任召委的時候我有辦了一個虛擬資產服務法的公聽會那在這個公聽會裡頭就是有很多的學者他跟專家他都給了很多的一個建議那他也期望"},{"start":31.211,"end":53.077,"text":"就是期待行政部門保留一個創新的空間那當然就是說我們希望就是國際化那也保障投資人所以在這裡頭這一個新法我們希望金融會安全那個洗錢的一個防治法要能建立還有數位主權這裡頭都是一個關鍵的一個轉折點"},{"start":53.997,"end":70.026,"text":"在這裡我想請教那個央行副總裁有幾個問題我想請教你就是說在這一次的虛擬資產服務法裡頭的草案第34條裡頭他有提到穩定幣等一下你解釋一下穩定幣"},{"start":70.786,"end":93.144,"text":"跟我們央行的CBDC它有什麼樣的一個不同那除了不同以外那在資料裡頭我們又看到了就是說今天審查的這個草案裡頭穩定幣你把它列入了一個規劃那這個穩定幣你要扮演一個那個最主要就是說你要進行監管"},{"start":94.245,"end":103.975,"text":"這個是後段的後段的軍管會那你的目的是什麼站在央行的一個角度請跟我提出這幾個說明好不好"},{"start":105.555,"end":126.004,"text":"我先做個簡單的說明那詳細部分請我們局長補充基本上央行的CVDC是屬於具有法幣性質只是他用數位的方式來發行第二個CVDC這個出來"},{"start":127.306,"end":152.245,"text":"它分兩層有一層是央行跟金融機構之間的一個關係第二層是金融機構跟一般客戶我們講的使用者的關係CBDC最主要的處理的是央行跟金融機構這種大額清算等等"},{"start":153.286,"end":173.294,"text":"所以這個是他的特質簡單的講他是不是就是一個流動的一個新台幣應該是電子化的新台幣但他不像現在電子化的一個新型的一個電子化的新台幣但是他不會用到一般資戶最主要是在跟金融資格之間那他需要"},{"start":174.534,"end":201.661,"text":"他需要那個始祖的準備金那花行者達到一定的金額的時候一定要向央行那個就是繳交這個準備金那當然就是說這一個那個穩定幣的當中他有交易的仲介還有替代那個通貨的功能那這裡我要請教你穩定幣會不會比照通貨還是那個我們的那個火期那個存款裡頭把它列為就是記幣的範圍呢"},{"start":207.474,"end":231.481,"text":"你說什麼季幣我跟你講穩定幣穩定幣就是你他一定是他一定是要繳準備金那準備金裡頭你會不會比照就是說未來會不會比照通貨那個不是通盆是通貨還是活期那個活期性的一個存款列為那個貨幣的季幣的一個範圍"},{"start":232.833,"end":255.655,"text":"我們現在的那個季體準備金的部分就是比照現在的電子支付因為它是一種電子支付代幣化的支部門發行的虛偽貨幣那現在的呢那我們現在就是以現在電子支付是季體準備金是以活期存款的準備率在季體準備金所以啊那你通貨有沒有把它列進去呢你活期已經列進去了嘛"},{"start":259.561,"end":271.845,"text":"因為它是等於把錢放到發行者的帳戶裡面去我們就是視同它就是有吸收這一筆的資金這一筆的資金的這一部分就是提出來以活期存款的所以是1比1嗎它現在就是1比1你說準備資產的部分嗎對準備資產是整體的準備資產有包括準備金那具體準備金剩餘的部分就是可以買高品質高流動性的這些金融資產"},{"start":287.509,"end":311.219,"text":"那這個加起來的準備資產要大一點納進去跟不納進去有什麼樣的一個影響你分析給我聽你說準備金不納進去的話嗎第一個因為它是要跟因為它現在的功能支付功能跟現在的電子制度管理條例是類似的所以我們需要說相同的業務相同的活動要適用相同的規定所以有具體準備金這樣規定那第二個準備金的部分是有保障"},{"start":312.279,"end":318.364,"text":"使用者的權利 因為準備經濟體制來之後如果它發生問題 可以保障消費者的權益那對台灣的一個貨幣資產它的影響層面是怎麼樣其實我覺得重點還是在影響到金融體系的存款因為今天如果是私人 私部門某一個非銀行機構去發行穩定幣那是不是你要把資金吸到這個非銀行機構的這個機構的本身"},{"start":339.742,"end":356.289,"text":"用戶一定會從銀行的存款提出來放到這些私部門機構去發行穩定幣所以其實比較衝擊的應該是銀行存款這個體系這個存款的流失我這樣聽起來其實你們還是非常的保守"},{"start":357.549,"end":377.208,"text":"那個金管會主委一直講說要有一個創新當然那個主委我等一下那個下半段就是請教你那這個上半段央行是趨於一個比較保守一個比較保守你有沒有想到就是說其實我們新台幣它處於一個比較劣勢因為我們不夠國際化"},{"start":379.349,"end":407.447,"text":"那不够国际化我们的知名度又不够我们不像新加坡不像那个香港他们其实是有一个比较响的一个国际知名度然后我们又不是世界那个流通的一个货币我们也不是美金也不是日币也不是欧元那如果你用这么保守的一个货币政策的话是不是会影响未来比特币的一个发展那当然刚才我坐在那个那个"},{"start":409.574,"end":426.159,"text":"坐在我的同事旁邊我同事就告訴我說我對這一個法案事實上我是有點擔心那我是不知道怎麼對待擔心起來因為我也知道說勢必是一定要推動的那可是在推動的過程裡頭"},{"start":427.279,"end":445.672,"text":"如果我們不跟世界接軌的話那我們會非常的一個吃虧那顯然就是說在這個過程裡頭那個新台幣的穩定幣必須要就是100%的一個準備金那這個準備金你們會把它指定放在這個央行或是指定的金融機構呢"},{"start":447.582,"end":462.972,"text":"我們不是100%的準備金而是一部分是體存準備金1比1為什麼不是100%呢不是 它的準備金的構成成分是準備金還有其他高流動性的資產所以準備金只是其中的一部分不是100%不是100%對 好"},{"start":467.114,"end":477.183,"text":"不是百分之百好那就是民間發行的新台幣的穩定幣的話他不一定就是必須100%的一個準備金不是100%的準備金但是100%的準備資產"},{"start":480.43,"end":497.553,"text":"好 是100%的準備資產那你的規模要晃到多大那就要看整個這個部門它發行的量有多大沒有 你一定要有一個準備嘛你打算你的規模要晃到最大是晃到哪裡你不可以連這個都打不出來啊就是看這個部門發行的穩定幣的量規模有多大才會以這個量去記提所謂的準備資產"},{"start":508.992,"end":515.353,"text":"所以你們打算這個規模要晃到多大總是有一個天花板你有一個地板總是會有一個天花板你不可能連這個問題都答不出來那我們怎麼支持你這個草案通過呢"},{"start":543.023,"end":550.33,"text":"我现在在问你说我不是在问准备金我已经翻页了我在问你说你的规模有多大"},{"start":552.268,"end":566.267,"text":"目前我看的虛擬資產的這個專法裡面是沒有規模的一個限額啦那我想後續可能再跟金管會這邊目前看母法是沒有但是我想後續我們可能會跟金管會再來做一些溝通交流 謝謝"},{"start":567.048,"end":578.643,"text":"所以有沒有跟金管會溝通過這個問題委員我要講母法是一個一般概念將來有相關的執法訂定的部分那你們跟金管總是會討論過主委主委所以相關執法這個部分應該比較清楚"},{"start":585.171,"end":603.491,"text":"好 主委我想那個是不是你來回答我這一個問題我們有關穩定幣因為剛才也涉及到可能是外匯還有貨幣的問題我們這個所有的草案包括我們這個草案裡面總共有八個條文每一個條文都跟央行做過非常密切的溝通"},{"start":604.755,"end":621.22,"text":"包括未來的執法也都是一定是因為這個確實牽涉到兩個像剛剛韋恩的投影片裡面像比如新加坡MS它就是兼具金管會跟央行的功能他們就很容易協調那我想我們在這邊兩個部分應該沒有什麼問題在這一塊我們有很高度的共識在管理這個市場"},{"start":622.082,"end":636.513,"text":"那我還是希望你會後給我這一個大概一個參考值你們的規模到底要做到哪裡就是我們會想說未來對於穩定幣整個規範的架構還有這些細節內容我再跟委員做報告"},{"start":637.573,"end":655.591,"text":"一方面要監理一邊又希望豁免監理的管理權這個有沒有矛盾就是在你的草案裡頭就是說你希望授權業者有創新的實驗可是你又希望他不適用於本法這個會不會出現結構性的矛盾"},{"start":657.833,"end":680.296,"text":"其實不會啦跟委員說明因為這個是因為我們覺得為了要鼓勵這個創新我把那個創新實驗條例也適用到這個VASP的這個就是說就像我們現在所有金融機構都可以都可以來適用所以你讓它更靈活就是說未來假設比如說它有一個是我們在整個這個虛擬資產服務法規範下面框線到一個新型的業態的話我們可以暫時跟它用"},{"start":680.856,"end":697.392,"text":"那如果業者進行大規模的募資的話那你會不會就是介入那是不是會有一個尖裡的沙盒還是說會有一個灰色的避風港其實不會有其實這種灰色地帶在模糊地帶我們就是擔心"},{"start":698.593,"end":706.24,"text":"一些狀況就是發生在這個模糊地帶沒有關係那個主委我想我再跟委員提一個書面說明其實不會有這個問題啦這個條文只是說讓他試用書面說明給賴委員讓他試用那個創新實驗條例好 謝謝我們謝謝賴委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時56分）謝謝主席，有請央行副總裁，還有業務局局長。"],["主席：請朱副總裁，還有謝局長。"],["賴委員惠員：副總裁、局長早安。去年6月12號本席擔任召委的時候有辦了一場虛擬資產服務法的公聽會，在這個公聽會裡有很多的學者跟專家都給了很多的建議，也期待行政部門保留創新的空間。我們希望國際化，也保障投資人，所以對於這個新法，我們希望金融會安全、洗錢防制法要能建立，還有數位主權，這些都是關鍵的轉折點。","在這裡有幾個問題我想請教央行副總裁，在這一次的虛擬資產服務法草案第三十四條裡有提到穩定幣，等一下請你解釋一下穩定幣跟我們央行的CBDC有什麼樣的不同？除了不同以外，我們又看到在今天審查的這個草案裡，你把穩定幣列入了規劃，對於穩定幣你要進行監管，這後續是由金管會負責，那你的目的是什麼？站在央行的角度，請跟我提出這幾個說明。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我先做個簡單的說明，詳細部分再請我們局長補充。基本上央行的CBDC是具有法幣性質，只是用數位的方式來發行。第二個，CBDC分兩層，有一層是央行跟金融機構之間的關係，第二層是金融機構跟一般客戶，也就是跟使用者的關係。CBDC最主要處理的是央行跟金融機構這種大額清算等等，所以這個是它的特質。"],["賴委員惠員：簡單的講，它是不是就是一個流動的新臺幣？"],["朱副總裁美麗：應該是電子化的新臺幣，但它不像現在……"],["賴委員惠員：一個新型的電子化的新臺幣。"],["朱副總裁美麗：它不會用於一般支付，最主要是使用在跟金融機構之間大額的……"],["賴委員惠員：它需要十足的準備金，發行者達到一定金額的時候一定要向央行繳交準備金，這個穩定幣有交易的仲介，還有替代通貨的功能，這裡我要請教你，穩定幣會不會比照通貨，還是活期存款，把它列為計幣的範圍呢？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：委員，你指的計幣是哪一種計幣？"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，穩定幣一定要繳準備金，準備金未來會不會比照通貨還是活期存款，列為貨幣計幣的範圍？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：我們計提準備金的部分就是比照現在的電子支付，因為它是一種電子支付代幣化的私部門發行的數位貨幣。"],["賴委員惠員：現在的呢？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：現在電子支付的計提準備金是以活期存款的準備率來計提準備金。"],["賴委員惠員：通貨有沒有把它列進去呢？活期已經列進去了嘛？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：因為它等於是把錢放到發行者的帳戶裡面，所以我們視同它有吸收這一筆資金，這一筆資金的這部分要提出來以活期存款……"],["賴委員惠員：所以是1比1嗎？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：委員是指準備資產的部分嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["謝局長鳳瑛：準備資產是整體的，準備資產有包括準備金，計提準備金剩餘的部分可以買高品質、高流動性的金融資產，這些加起來的準備資產要大於、等於……"],["賴委員惠員：納進去與不納進去有什麼影響，你分析給我聽？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：委員是指準備金不納進去的話嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["謝局長鳳瑛：第一個，因為它的支付功能和現在電子支付機構管理條例是類似的，我們希望相同的業務、相同的活動要適用相同的規定，所以有計提準備金這樣的規定。"],["賴委員惠員：當然是為了安全，對不對？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：第二個，準備金是具有保障使用者的權益，準備金計提之後，如果發生問題，可以保障消費者的權益。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，是一種保障、是一種安全，對臺灣的貨幣、資產影響層面是什麼？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：其實我覺得重點還是在影響金融體系的存款，因為今天如果是私部門或某一個非銀行機構發行穩定幣，你是不是要把資金吸到非銀行機構的本身，用戶一定會從銀行存款提出來放到這些私部門機構發行穩定幣，所以其實比較受衝擊的應該是銀行體系的存款流失。"],["賴委員惠員：局長，我這樣聽起來，其實你們還是非常保守，金管會主委一直講要創新，主委，我等一下下半段會請教你，上半段央行是趨於保守，你有沒有想到新臺幣處於比較劣勢的狀況，因為我們不夠國際化，知名度又不夠，不像新加坡、香港有比較響的國際知名度，我們也不是世界流通貨幣，我們不是美金、也不是日幣、也不是歐元。如果你採取這麼保守的貨幣政策的話，是不是會影響未來比特幣的發展？我剛才坐在我同事旁邊，我同事就告訴我，他對這個法案事實上是有點擔心，那我是不知道要從何擔心起，因為我也知道勢必是一定要推動的，可是在推動的過程中，如果我們不跟世界接軌的話會非常吃虧，顯然在這個過程中，新臺幣穩定幣必須要100%準備金，你們會把這個準備金指定放在央行或是指定的金融機構嗎？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：報告委員，我們不是100%準備金，而是一部分是提存準備金……"],["賴委員惠員：1比1為什麼不是100%呢？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：它的準備金構成成分包含準備金以及其他的高流動性資產，所以準備金只是其中的一部分，不是100%。"],["賴委員惠員：不是100%？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好，不是100%，民間發行的新臺幣穩定幣不一定必須100%的準備金，還有其他……"],["謝局長鳳瑛：不是100%準備金，但是100%的準備資產。"],["賴委員惠員：好，是100%的準備資產，你的規模要放到多大？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：那就要看整個部門發行的量有多大。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有，你一定要有一個準備，你打算規模最大要放到多大？你不可以連這個都答不出來啊！"],["謝局長鳳瑛：就是看這個部門發行的穩定幣的量規模有多大，才會依這個量去計提所謂的準備資產。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你們打算這個規模要放到多大？"],["朱副總裁美麗：這個部分是新的，這個標準還在研議中。"],["賴委員惠員：你有一個地板，總是會有一個天花板，你不可以連這個問題都答不出來，我們怎麼支持你們這個草案通過呢？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：以電子支付來看，如果單純講準備金大概是10%左右。"],["賴委員惠員：我現在不是在問準備金，我已經翻頁了，我在問的是你的規模有多大，你準備的規模要多大？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：目前我看虛擬資產專法裡面是沒有規模的限額，後續可能再跟金管會……"],["賴委員惠員：所以沒有天花板？"],["謝局長鳳瑛：目前看母法是沒有，但是後續我們可能會跟金管會再來做一些溝通交流，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有跟金管會溝通過這個問題？"],["朱副總裁美麗：委員，母法是一個一般概念，將來會訂定相關子法。"],["賴委員惠員：你們跟金管會總是會討論過……"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，現在因為母法都還在討論，所以相關子法在這個部分應該會比較清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，是不是由你來回答我這個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關穩定幣，因為剛才講涉及到可能是外匯，還有貨幣問題，我們所有的草案包括這個草案裡面總共有8個條文，每一個條文都有跟央行做過非常密切的溝通，包括未來的子法也都是、一定是，因為這個確實牽涉到兩個部會，像剛才委員的投影片裡面提到的新加坡MAS就是兼具金管會和央行的功能，他們就很容易協調，我想我們兩個部會應該沒有什麼問題，在這一塊我們有很高度的共識在管理這個市場。"],["賴委員惠員：我還是希望你會後給我一個大概的參考值，你們的規模到底要做到哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們未來對於穩定幣整個規範的架構，還有細節內容，我再跟委員做報告。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，最後一個問題，一方面要監理，一方面又希望豁免監理的管理權，這樣有沒有矛盾？在你的草案裡頭，你希望授權業者有創新實驗，可是你又希望它不適用於本法，這樣會不會出現結構性的矛盾？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不會，跟委員說明，因為這是我們為了鼓勵創新，把創新實驗條例也適用到VASP，就像我們現在所有金融機構都可以來適用。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你讓它更靈活、更有彈性。"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來假設有一個是我們在整個虛擬資產服務法規範下面，框限到一個新型業態的話，我們可以暫時讓它準用……"],["賴委員惠員：如果業者進行大規模募資的話，你會不會介入呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然要看它的……"],["賴委員惠員：是不是會有一個監理沙盒，還是會有一個灰色避風港呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不會有。"],["賴委員惠員：其實這種灰色地帶、模糊地帶，我們就是擔心一些狀況會發生在模糊地帶，沒有關係，主委，我們再來共同討論，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我再跟委員提個書面說明，其實不會有這個問題，這個條文只是讓它適用……"],["主席：那就提供書面說明給賴委員，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，只是讓它適用創新實驗條例。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00a9a222867877b7af55b9b7d9df2795fe06dd83a37e4b4549004998842fe26b305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:43:27 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09:57:13","影片長度":"00:13:46","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T09:43:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T09:57:13+08:00","duration":826,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.32596875,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.464718750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.87346875,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.35784375,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.94846875,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.197843750000004,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.60659375,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.682218750000004,"end":45.087218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.55971875,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.59346875,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.48346875,"end":49.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.88846875,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.33534375,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.056593750000005,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.486593750000004,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.30346875000001,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.31096875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.36971875,"end":79.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.23784375000001,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.89971875,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":90.27846875,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.97846875,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.06284375,"end":93.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.60284375,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.55784375,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.27784375,"end":123.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.47159375000001,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.77471875,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.44409375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.46096875,"end":138.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.25409375,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.56596875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.16909375,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.34971875000002,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.35721875000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.06159375000001,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.14534375000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.60846875000001,"end":176.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.22721875000002,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.32784375,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.36034375,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.11534375000002,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.83534375000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.48409375,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.53471875000002,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.00659375,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEA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我們請農業部那請署長 房檢署署長我也好 署長好"},{"start":17.017,"end":37.272,"text":"昨天我在這邊問了陳俊吉部長的時候他很肯定的說非洲豬瘟不是本土的所以就是從邊境放進來的那既然是從外面來的那就三個方式嘛第一是人帶進來第二是貨物包裹寄進來第三是走私進來那還有其他可能嗎"},{"start":39.787,"end":48.937,"text":"目前這三個也是我們的原因之一我知道會有其他的方式嗎不會是鳥帶進來的吧不會 它跟禽流感不一樣"},{"start":50.693,"end":77.742,"text":"所以就是這三個 還有嗎目前我們追查的方向也是如此那從2005年後國際通報發生非洲豬瘟的有83個國家那最近三年曾發生非洲豬瘟的國家也有75個那我想請問一下我們農業部現在認定非洲豬瘟高風險的地區有幾個我們認定的是有39個為什麼只有39個 其他75個我們最近三年有75個為什麼只有認定39個"},{"start":80.376,"end":93.022,"text":"其實我們是依照國際疫情的趨勢去做滾動的檢查那什麼叫趨勢咧 他們這些有發生不就是高風險地區嗎我請副組長說明一下好"},{"start":93.706,"end":122.379,"text":"是 各位委員報告我們都會即時的就是搜尋國際組織的網易還有各國的一些疫情的資訊來了解說在哪些國家發生疫情還有哪些國家可能會途經這個地區作為一個中轉旅客中轉的地區來輸到台灣來所以我們這是一個滾動檢討的一個過程對 我現在比較好奇的就是說這些75個國家有這個3年內有這個案例那為什麼我們只追蹤到39個這個原因在哪裡 為什麼只有39"},{"start":123.541,"end":126.325,"text":"其實39個國家是作為裁罰的依據那其他75個減掉39都大概是31 36 36個他不會裁罰意思是這樣"},{"start":138.963,"end":163.92,"text":"有公告一個非洲豬瘟的非疫區的國家的名單那它就發生啊那為什麼它是非疫區咧你跟我們講要經過我們的書面資料的審核跟必要時做實地評估通過之後才會列在農業報告上你評估的標準是什麼就我們有一個專家學組的委員會會先審視它的書面資料那要多少才要發生幾個案例才能夠算是高風險地區"},{"start":165.843,"end":188.118,"text":"應該是回到剛剛跟委員報告的議題就是說我們列這個非疫區的名單如果不在這非疫區名單就是疫區只是要不要裁罰就是39個國家我覺得很奇怪你們這樣追蹤這樣怎麼會擋得住咧對不對他75個我們現在知道3年內就有75個國家我們只追蹤我們只限制管制這個39個這不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":189.164,"end":215.295,"text":"因為我們的活豬跟豬肉相關產品都只能從非洲豬瘟的非疫區國家輸入疫區進來的都不能進來但只是後續的採拔我們是看這個高風險的國家我還聽不懂你講什麼我是現在是講說那75為什麼你追蹤39那另外的是可以進來就對了這樣子好不好 那個委員我這個的詳細的在會後以後我今天就提供資料給您說我們這個很奇怪嘛好你等一下再給我資料"},{"start":217.25,"end":240.626,"text":"那我這樣講啦 就是說邊境管制就算我們沒有這次非洲這個豬瘟的問題像這些75個國家我們應該我們自己邊境管制要更嚴格不是嗎 對不對其實我們這7年來就是如此你剛剛就講了就沒有做到嘛那第二個 現在我在講人入境"},{"start":241.653,"end":269.111,"text":"如果旅客或國人帶加工肉製品入境台灣都要申報檢疫如果偷帶查到就20萬對不對不管是不是從非洲豬瘟疫區入境都一樣對不對沒錯吧那我再問這個關務署我們財政部我們現在一年總共進口多少國際包裹"},{"start":270.63,"end":286.96,"text":"我們大概如果是快遞的話一年大概有6000平均6000萬件左右一年只有6000萬件快遞我查的資料2021年11月單月就有619萬大概就6000萬左右一年就6000萬嘛那針對剛剛農業部所說非洲豬瘟高風險地區進來的國際包裹我們的抽菸率是多少"},{"start":295.721,"end":318.629,"text":"跟委員報告我們就是包裹就是不管是快遞或者是這個郵包我們全部都是百分之百的X光我現在講的是人工抽驗那人工抽驗的話就是說在這個X光影像上面看到如果有異常我們就是會馬上來做這個人工的一個開箱的一個查驗你要看到異常才會開箱"},{"start":322.811,"end":343.692,"text":"對 因為這個一方面就是人力的問題另外一方面就是通關速度的一個問題所以為什麼要利用這個X光的一個影像探索我們一般低價免貨物稅的抽菸率大概是3%左右對吧那是平均對啊 平均3%嘛那高風險地區的抽菸率有更高嗎"},{"start":345.643,"end":360.563,"text":"高風險的其實其實就是說剛剛跟委員報告的高風險的也是就是從X光的影像來看然後我們會加強不是啊 我覺得很奇怪你一般都是3%左右那高風險你不會提高嗎"},{"start":363.52,"end":376.668,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們針對高風險的譬如說是從這個中國大陸這邊大概我們的只有中國大陸是高風險地區其他地方不是嗎跟委員報告大概是4.59%左右"},{"start":380.444,"end":396.599,"text":"4.59%這樣我大概算了一下就是從你們112年到114年兩年半大概放行的這個1億5000萬個包裹那關武署查獲只有大概1321件那通報比率不到千分之一的千分之一"},{"start":397.439,"end":414.696,"text":"這樣的數字難怪你們的報告完全不敢寫出來還好意思說邊境多嚴格你們乾脆直接說這個十二五環邊境管理早就已經棄守了嘛那現在每一件都是用S光來檢查那就表示你們這樣就是嚴格防疫的意思囉"},{"start":416.623,"end":437.642,"text":"跟委員報告其實X光檢查是本來就一定要經過X光檢查你現在所謂的精進作為我看到你們報告裡面說精進作為那要怎麼精進是像跟委員報告是提高人工開箱查驗比例嗎是提高人工的一個開箱查驗比例你剛剛講說X光照道有問題"},{"start":438.843,"end":457.896,"text":"你們才會人工開箱那你現在要精進你現在又說是要用人工開箱來精進你這個邏輯就不對了嘛因為委員報告是說剛才說這個S光這是本來就是我們會經過S光也就是說你們人工抽驗不是依照S光的這個看到有問題的來做開箱檢驗嘛 對不對"},{"start":461.778,"end":481.423,"text":"那你現在要精進就是要精進要提高我們人工開箱的抽檢率跟我們報告X光如果有異常一定開箱因為我們有經過我們的風險管理他的通關方式那你說精進的話你要怎麼做我們精進的話目前我們針對這個查驗的件數我們至少要提高20%以上"},{"start":483.396,"end":495.965,"text":"精進 就是要查公 那你要多少人工 你知道嗎至少要提高百分之二十以上總共以後要百分之二十 是什麼時候開始是 我們就立即就開始了而且我們24號 你人手過嗎"},{"start":497.171,"end":518.679,"text":"我們現在就是說就是在這個我們的人力的一個我們就是全部充分來利用然後就是盡量你提高我下個月會開始看你的抽菸率那我現在在問動物製品有一千就是移送的這是1321件裡面有269件是豬肉那請問一下開罰多少罰了幾件"},{"start":524.867,"end":532.79,"text":"委員報告 這個開罰的部分是房檢署這邊好 你好 開罰 是委員講的是郵包 對好 郵包大概是開罰9件開罰9件 14 9案吧對 180萬 是那實際查獲違規的包裹有幾件實際查獲的包裹是幾件海關已給我們調查就是9件"},{"start":553.55,"end":562.313,"text":"就只有9件 就只查到9件就對了269件是出漏了 那你為什麼只開罰9件海關儀給我們的1300件左右那整個立案的大概是9件"},{"start":568.991,"end":583.491,"text":"對啊 為什麼呢有269件是豬肉耶因為身份的認證的問題對啊 我就覺得你們的規定很奇怪你知道嗎你們現在規定說如果他不在非洲豬瘟疫區裡面寄豬肉這個製品過來是可以的"},{"start":585.278,"end":611.849,"text":"那第二個如果他從疫區寄肉品來台灣寄件人跟收件人不一樣查到也不罰 不行那個委員我報告一下所有只要肉品絕對都不能進來不管你是非洲豬瘟如果是第一次從疫區自己帶進來也不罰嗎 完全都不行那為什麼269件你只查你只罰9件 那是身份問題因為當時他在登記的時候有時候是假身份所以我們去追查 假身份你追不到"},{"start":612.469,"end":635.816,"text":"追不到 他那個追不到所以他是用假名字假豬子咧 總會有人領嘛他總會有個地址有人去領啊所以我們追到受騙人 那受騙人否認不是他寄的每個人都這樣玩就好啦 你是怎麼把關啊目前是這樣 因為這個也有考量一個情形不是 這個就很大的一個漏洞嘛"},{"start":636.567,"end":647.122,"text":"你不覺得嗎 對不對他用假名字 然後我們不罰但也許他用假名字 可是他總要領這個東西嘛沒有領 其實很多是沒有領那他寄進來幹嘛邱委員我先報告一下所有的貨品是進不來"},{"start":652.129,"end":668.424,"text":"也就一定 或是一定銷毀但人的處理上我們去追 追法源那追法源就有身份的問題我知道嘛 我的意思是說他寄這個漏進來你說 你當然沒有給他進來 沒錯啊我的意思是說 他寄進來他總是有一個目的啊 對不對不然他寄這個東西幹什麼"},{"start":669.525,"end":695.721,"text":"因為現在就有一個問題假設說好我們現在他是假身份我們追查到他然後他說不是我不是我叫人家記的也不是我認識的人記的那如果我們開罰那真的是就又錯殺了但是所以我覺得你們要想個辦法了好不好因為時間也不夠最後一個問題最後一個問題啊主席不好意思剛剛講的39個國家的那經我們查是因為跟我們國家有航班晚來"},{"start":696.801,"end":712.416,"text":"所以是39個 盤點以後對 是39個國家那我再問就是說最後一個就是昨天我們部長說這個基因定序明天會出來可是又說中國沒上傳這個序列所以沒辦法判斷來源這個定序不是就"},{"start":713.237,"end":741.358,"text":"比對全球嗎要找出最接近的病毒株研判可能傳入的這個來源你們之前也說其中有一部分是跟越南很這個病毒很相近那現在怎麼樣現在是中國的序列沒有中國系列就沒辦法比對是這樣嗎不是 跟委員報告因為病毒是會演化的那我們病毒的基因序列就入了他的身分證那我們之前的那這樣防疫有用嗎"},{"start":742.839,"end":765.728,"text":"基本上你還是要知道他病毒的序列才知道他的病毒的特性你不是說他會演變他會演化就像Covid-19一樣他也會演化那你查的不到他來源就對了所以如果是他有公佈最新的序列我們的序列就像禽流感一樣他有公佈最新的序列了我們就可以知道他從哪一個路徑譬如說我今天比對到跟北海道一樣"},{"start":767.128,"end":783.576,"text":"我這樣講就是說他講中國大陸沒有嘛對不對那你應該也不管中國大陸有沒有全世界應該都要比對不是這樣嗎當然比對全世界可是如果今天比到像剛剛非洲豬有24個基因型如果我們比到非洲的基因型跟我們不一樣那對我們這個病毒的意義一點都沒有"},{"start":784.397,"end":799.679,"text":"病毒的序列就可以比較可以用來追蹤它的可能的來源所以如果它不提供最新的那有可能其實像你當然應該是這樣講我們先比對嘛全世界先比對嘛也不一定是中國大陸來的"},{"start":800.64,"end":825.558,"text":"所以我覺得我們會送上那個我希望你們這個料敵從寬啦不要太狹隘這個病毒是有可能從全世界進來那我希望我們的防疫這個要做的這個嚴格一點才能保護我們的這個養豬農民 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝崔委謝謝各位官員請回接下來請王育民委員來做宣達"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時43分）主席好。請農業部防檢署署長。"],["主席：請防檢署署長。"],["杜署長麗華：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：署長好。昨天我在這邊問了陳駿季部長的時候，他很肯定的說非洲豬瘟不是本土的，所以就是從邊境放進來的，既然是從外面來的，就三個方式嘛！第一是人帶進來，第二是貨物包裹寄進來，第三是走私進來，還有其他可能嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：目前這三個也是我們的原因之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，會有其他的方式嗎？不會是鳥帶進來的吧？"],["杜署長麗華：不會，它跟禽流感不一樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以就是這三個，還有嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們追查的方向也是如此。"],["邱委員鎮軍：從2005年國際通報發生非洲豬瘟有83個國家，最近三年曾發生非洲豬瘟的國家也有75個，我想請問一下，農業部現在認定非洲豬瘟高風險的地區有幾個？"],["杜署長麗華：我們認定的是有39個。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼只有39個？最近三年有75個，為什麼只有認定39個？"],["杜署長麗華：其實我們是依照國際疫情的趨勢去做滾動檢測。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那什麼叫趨勢呢？他們這些有發生的不就是高風險地區嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我請副組長說明一下。"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告，我們都會即時搜尋國際組織的網頁，還有各國的一些疫情資訊來了解在哪些國家發生疫情，還有哪些國家可能會途經這個地區，作為一個旅客中轉的地區輸到臺灣來，所以我們這是一個滾動檢討的過程。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我現在比較好奇的就是說，這些75個國家三年內有這個案例，為什麼我們只追蹤到39個？這個原因在哪裡？為什麼只有39個？"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告，其實這39個國家是做為裁罰的依據，只要來自非洲豬瘟……"],["邱委員鎮軍：其他75減掉39大概是36個，它不會裁罰？意思是這樣？"],["亓副組長隆祥：因為農業部有公告一個非洲豬瘟非疫區的國家的名單……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那它就發生啦！為什麼它是非疫區的？你跟我們講。"],["亓副組長隆祥：要經過我們書面資料的審核跟必要時做實地評估，通過之後才會列在農業部的網站上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你評估的標準是什麼？"],["亓副組長隆祥：我們有一個專家學者的委員會，會先審視他的書面資料。"],["邱委員鎮軍：要發生幾個案例才能夠算是高風險地區？"],["亓副組長隆祥：應該是回到剛剛跟委員報告的這個議題，就是說我們列這個非疫區的名單，如果不在這個非疫區名單就是疫區，只是要不要裁罰，就是這39個國家。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我覺得很奇怪，你們這樣追蹤，這樣怎麼會擋得住？對不對？我們現在知道三年內就有75個國家，我們只追蹤、只管制這39個，這不是很奇怪嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：因為我們的活豬跟豬肉相關產品都只能從非洲豬瘟的非疫區國家輸入，疫區進來的都不能進來，只是後續的裁罰，我們是看高風險的國家……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還是聽不懂你講什麼，我是現在是說有75個國家，為什麼你只追蹤39個，另外的是可以進來就對了？"],["杜署長麗華：這樣子好不好，委員，詳細的部分我在今天會後就提供資料跟您說我們的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，這個很奇怪，好，你等一下再給我資料。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講啦，邊境管制就算我們沒有這次非洲豬瘟的問題，像這75個國家，我們應該在自己的邊境管理也要更嚴格，不是嗎？對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是，其實我們這七年來就是如此。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛講的就沒有做到。第二個，現在我要講關於人入境，如果旅客或國人帶加工肉製品入境臺灣都要申報檢疫。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果偷帶查到就20萬，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：20萬起跳。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不管是不是從非洲豬瘟疫區入境都一樣，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問財政部關務署，我們現在一年總共進口多少國際包裹？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：如果是快遞的話，一年大概平均有6,000萬件左右的快遞。"],["邱委員鎮軍：一年只有6,000萬件？我查的資料，2021年11月單月就有619萬，大概一年就6,000萬嘛！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：針對剛剛農業部所說，非洲豬瘟高風險地區進來的國際包裹，我們的抽驗率是多少？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，我們的包裹不管是快遞或者是郵包，我們全部都是百分之百的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你是用X光嘛！對不對？我現在講的是人工抽驗。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：人工抽驗的話，在X光影像上面看到如果有異常，我們會馬上來做人工的開箱查驗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要看到異常才會開箱？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：對，因為一方面是人力的問題，另外一方面是通關速度的問題，所以為什麼要利用X光的影像……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們一般低價免貨物稅的抽驗率大概是3%左右，對吧？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：那是平均。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，平均3%，高風險地區的抽驗率有更高嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：其實就是剛剛跟委員報告的，高風險的也是從X光的影像來看，然後我們會加強提高人力的抽驗比例。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是啊，我現在覺得很奇怪，一般都是3%左右，高風險的不會提高嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，我們針對高風險的，譬如說是從中國大陸這邊……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就只有中國大陸是高風險地區，其他地方不是嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，大概是4.59%左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：4.59%？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我大概算了一下，從112年到114年，兩年半大概放行了一億五千萬個包裹，關務署只有查獲1,321件，通報比率不到千分之一，這樣的數字難怪你們的報告完全不敢寫出來，還好意思說邊境多嚴格，你們不如直接說食安五環邊境管理早就已經棄守了。現在每一件都是用X光來檢查，你們這樣就是嚴格防疫的意思囉？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，其實本來就一定要經過X光檢查，因為我們針對高風險……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們的報告裡面說要精進作為，那要怎麼精進？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是提高人工開箱查驗比例嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是，提高人工開箱查驗，我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛說X光照到有問題，你們才會人工開箱，你現在說要精進，但又說要用人工開箱來精進，這樣邏輯就不對了。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：我跟委員報告的是，剛才說到的X光，本來就是會經過X光，然後如果有異常……"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說，你們人工抽驗不是依照X光看到有問題的來開箱檢驗對不對？你現在要精進就是要提高人工開箱的抽檢率對不對？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：跟委員報告，X光檢查如果有異常一定開箱……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，這是一定的啊！"],["蘇副署長淑貞：另外有經過我們的風險管理，它的通關方式如果是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果要精進的話，你要怎麼做？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：精進的話，目前針對查驗的件數至少要提高20%以上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：精進就是要查驗，那你要多少以上的人工？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：人工開箱查驗的件數至少要提高20%以上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：以後總共要提高20%？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼時候開始？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：我們立即就開始了，而且我們在24號……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的人手夠嗎？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：現在就是把我們的人力全部充分利用，儘量……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說要提高，我下個月會開始看你們的抽驗率。"],["蘇副署長淑貞：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在要問在動物製品移送1,321件裡面，有269件是豬肉，請問一下開罰多少？罰了幾件？"],["蘇副署長淑貞：報告委員，開罰的部分是由防檢署開罰。"],["杜署長麗華：委員講的是郵包？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["杜署長麗華：郵包大概是開罰9件。"],["邱委員鎮軍：開罰9件？也就是總共9案罰180萬？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：實際查獲違規的包裹有幾件？"],["杜署長麗華：海關移給我們調查就是9件。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就只有9件，就只查到9件就對了？269件是豬肉，你為什麼只開罰9件？"],["杜署長麗華：我修正一下，海關移給我們1,300件左右，整個立案的大概是9件。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼呢？有269件是豬肉欸！"],["杜署長麗華：因為身分認證的問題，因為我們在追溯……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就覺得你們的規定很奇怪，你們現在規定如果他不在非洲豬瘟疫區裡面寄豬肉製品過來是可以的。第二個，如果他從疫區寄肉品來臺灣，寄件人跟收件人不一樣，查到也不罰……"],["杜署長麗華：不行！委員，我報告一下，只要肉品絕對都不能進來，不管你是非洲豬瘟國家或非……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是第一次從疫區自己帶進來也不罰嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：完全都不行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼269件你只罰9件？"],["杜署長麗華：那是身分認證的問題，因為當時在登記的時候，有時候是假身分，所以我們去追查的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：假身分你追不到？"],["杜署長麗華：追不到，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他是用假名字？"],["杜署長麗華：對，用假名字……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那假住址呢？總會有人領嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：就是不敢領……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他總會有個地址有人去領啊！"],["杜署長麗華：我們追到收件人，收件人否認說不是他寄的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：每個人都這樣玩就好了，你怎麼把關呢？"],["杜署長麗華：目前是這樣，因為這也有考量一個情形……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這就是一個很大的漏洞，你不覺得嗎？對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：可是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他用假名字，然後我們不罰，也許他用假名字，可是他總要領這個東西嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：沒有領，其實很多是沒有領的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有領？那不是很奇怪，那他寄進來幹嘛？難道是共產黨的陰謀？"],["杜署長麗華：邱委員，我先報告一下，所有的貨品是進不來的，也就是貨一定銷毀，但在人的處理上，我們去追罰鍰，而追罰鍰就有身分的問題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，我的意思是說他寄肉進來，你們當然沒有讓它進來沒錯，但他寄進來總是有一個目的，不然他寄這些東西幹什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：現在就有一個問題，假設他是假身分，我們追查到他，然後他說：不是我叫人家寄的，也不是我認識的人寄的。如果我們開罰，真的就又錯殺了，但是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得你們要想個辦法，好不好？因為時間不夠，我問最後一個問題……"],["杜署長麗華：另外我再跟您回報，關於剛剛講的39個國家，經過我們調查是因為跟我們國家有航班往來，所以盤點以後是39個國家。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個問題，昨天部長說基因定序明天會出來，可是又說中國沒上傳序列，所以沒辦法判斷來源，這個定序不是比對全球嗎？要找出最接近的病毒株，研判可能傳入的來源，你們之前也說其中有一部分跟越南的病毒很相近，現在是怎麼樣？現在是沒有中國的序列就沒辦法比對，是這樣嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：跟委員報告，因為病毒是會演化的，病毒的基因序列就如同它的身分證，我們之前的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那這樣防疫有用嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：基本上還是要知道病毒的序列才會知道病毒的特性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不是說它會演化嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：它會演化，就像COVID-19一樣，它也會演化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你查不到它的來源就對了？"],["鄧所長明中：如果它有公布最新的序列，就像禽流感一樣，它有公布最新的序列了，我們就可以知道它從哪一個路徑，譬如我今天比對到跟北海道一樣，那就知道它可能是從北海道那個路徑來的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我的意思是他講中國大陸沒有嘛，對不對？"],["鄧所長明中：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不管中國大陸有沒有，全世界應該都要比對，不是這樣嗎？"],["鄧所長明中：當然要比對全世界，可是如果今天比對到……像剛剛說非洲豬瘟有24個基因型，如果比對到非洲的基因型根本不一樣，那對這個病毒的意義一點都沒有，病毒的序列比較可以用來追蹤它可能的來源，所以如果他不提供最新的，其實那有可能像……"],["邱委員鎮軍：應該是這樣講，全世界先比對嘛，也不一定是中國大陸來的啊！"],["鄧所長明中：所以我說我們會送上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們料敵從寬，不要太狹隘，病毒有可能從全世界進來，我希望我們的防疫要做得嚴格一點，才能保護我們養豬的農民，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，各位官員請回。","接下來請王育敏委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 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你還是沈博洋委員的學長"},{"start":110.143,"end":127.814,"text":"所以我們省委員員好或是說王定宇召委往後大家都很擔心在討論說以後他們出國的時候會不會因為中國他會就是說會利用跟他們交好的一些國家那是因為我們剛有提到這個"},{"start":130.376,"end":147.576,"text":"我記得剛剛事業外交部有提到就是說中國他有跟這個俄羅斯等60多個國家簽訂了刑事司法互助的條約也跟60個國家簽訂這個引渡條約所以我們都很擔心列入這個名單的我們的這些委員們或者是說"},{"start":148.217,"end":149.999,"text":"他們所謂的這個台獨份子以後到這些國家去的時候我們會很擔心他們會被這些國家引渡到中國去受審其實除了這個之外其實中國在這個境外有設置這個井橋事務海外服務站"},{"start":164.838,"end":179.018,"text":"那這些他們都是以這個服務戰作為這個幌子實施這個監控那甚至像非洲中南美洲有些國家他們甚至呢跟這些國家就是說我幫你來訓練當地的這個執法人員甚至就是利用這個方式來拓展他們國際執法的這個合作所以像這類的話"},{"start":182.222,"end":198.576,"text":"那是不是會提高這個我們國人到海外呢甚至會被送中的這個風險所以我想了解一下說萬一發生這種事情的話我們有沒有什麼其他的制衡的方式因為像之前的話像中國中國曾經就跟摩洛哥政府配合將這個維吾爾族的異分子愛上"},{"start":201.198,"end":206.08,"text":"於這個摩洛哥要轉機的時候呢就將他逮捕說要求送回中國送聖當然後來這個愛上並沒有成功送回中國是因為聯合國的這一個人權專家的介入所以後來他後來是被釋放了可是如果類似像沈博洋委員也好王廷宇專委也好如果他們到國外遇到這種狀況的話我們有哪一些具體可以抗衡的一些手段呢"},{"start":226.751,"end":255.731,"text":"報告委員 中共是靠鬥爭起家它是無所不用其極所以我們當然在面對這個中共的長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓我們當然全力的來做好 比如說宣導然後去讓我們的外管能夠協助國人如果發生一些緊急的情況另外跟友好國家之間也能夠一起來分享情誌以外做好因應"},{"start":256.651,"end":270.014,"text":"那麼其實他們針對個人在進行所謂的這個對台灣啦 當然在國外其實這些長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓都有作用力跟反作用力"},{"start":271.241,"end":296.749,"text":"這個也證實了中共就是它的本質所以我想全世界包括美國啦甚至像法國都曾經發生過這些情形之後他們也有一些因應但是我們國人因為有些是出入在兩岸之間或者說到了中共比較能夠掌控的像港澳或他所謂的他的這個協力的這些國家那我們就是做好事前事終跟事後"},{"start":297.949,"end":312.436,"text":"各種的這個因應那我也要特別利用這個機會指出其實中共是從20年前在通過反分裂法的時候就啟動了三戰這三戰是所謂的混合戰是交互在運用就法律戰"},{"start":314.057,"end":326.466,"text":"輿論戰跟心理戰而這個最後的這個心理戰其實他就是想不戰而屈人之兵他企圖造成了一種紅色的恐怖那讓你人人自危你就會有一個自我檢查而且把這個戰場"},{"start":329.588,"end":341.836,"text":"打到對方的 比如說台灣的內部所以我們在因應上是必須要全面性的除了是法律戰涉及到的這些之外其實它有背後更深層的一種混合戰在支撐它對台的鬥爭"},{"start":346.283,"end":368.186,"text":"市部長剛有提到就是說我們請友好國家要特別就是留意我們會跟他們有很多的互動換言之就是說像王委員或是說沈博洋委員是他們也只能到友好國家去因為像現在的話我們知道說像他的這個審讀22條裡面他是可以用缺席審查"},{"start":369.006,"end":372.068,"text":"就是說他們會經過缺席審查然後再來的話就是可能就會通報這個國際刑警組織發布紅色通緝令他們大概的這個方向是這麼走嘛對不對以後沈博耀委會面對這一些這一連串的這個局面嗎"},{"start":387.976,"end":399.501,"text":"先審查那再來呢因為他現在已經立案偵查了嘛偵查當然就是開始要做審查審查之後呢罪名確立之後就是要通報國際刑警組織嘛再來就是通報這個紅色通緝令嘛是會來會是這樣子的走向嗎"},{"start":403.743,"end":424.622,"text":"因為中共對於所謂的長臂管轄跨境世界包括自己的中國人包括台灣人也包括其他國家的人所以這種威脅是引起全世界大家都是認為是一個威權擴張那當然我們自己要做好防範萬一發生的時候也要營救"},{"start":425.883,"end":443.404,"text":"可是我們怎麼樣去避免以及發生的時候去應處那我要特別提到的說它不是單純的法律戰它是一個所謂的三戰合一的混合戰那我們在因應的時候也必須全面性來看待它因為它這個東西想不戰而屈人執兵想要從內部瓦解我們"},{"start":444.165,"end":456.914,"text":"那造成人人自危那至於說所謂缺席審判啦然後所謂的這個不受時效追溯時效的限制啦其實這個是20年來他們逐步在鋪陳那只是他現在國力比較強聲量比較大那我們自己當然政府該做的 人民該做的以及跟國際之間的合作還有我們之間跨部會單位之間的協調包括資訊的分享 預警"},{"start":471.443,"end":478.087,"text":"以及發生之後的一些包括這些旅遊警戒這個都是做到我們可以說可是因為它有涉及到它的引渡條約或者司法互助條約那是不是因為這樣子送到這個所謂的這個國際的這個所謂的這些包括這些刑事這個組織"},{"start":491.734,"end":499.621,"text":"這個當然我們會去因應那也不會讓他要如何因應我們不斷地在宣導然後也跟友好國家其實在不斷地針對這個東西交流甚至我們包括透過很多的機制在進行所以台灣不會孤單的這個因應不是只針對台灣針對台灣人中國人跟各國的人他都可能選擇性的適用"},{"start":515.473,"end":536.298,"text":"只是說因為我們在國際上跟中國因為有這些涉及到的他對我們的這種直接的鎖定特定的人那這個我們也不能夠當作只是一個點名但是我一說怎麼去做好防範如果發生的時候是妥善因應但是這個事件我剛剛講有作用力就有反作力"},{"start":537.677,"end":551.136,"text":"所以這個對中共也沒有好處啦我是說純粹在國際上來講大家這個就是一個迫害這個既有以規則為基礎的國際秩序的一個麻煩製造者那我們在這方面我們也必須要宣傳讓國際共同來因應"},{"start":554.068,"end":582.348,"text":"是看起來現在我們沈博洋委員是一個很大的這個目標那部長你會不會就是說請跟沈博洋委員就是建議就是說有哪些國家不建議他去哪些國家是OK會嗎因為我現在想像中國的話他在非洲也好中南美洲甚至東南亞他們其實都很多這方面的這些互動就是說像建設立這個海外警察警察站服務站等等或是有司法互助這些國家我們會建議列入這些列入這個"},{"start":583.809,"end":593.259,"text":"清單的這些 我們說受清算者好了會不會給予他們一份名單 就是說哪些國家最好是不要去哪些國家建議 其實是說 那個是安全的我們會有這種動作嗎有 我剛剛講不同層次啦就個人的層次 當然因為我們是"},{"start":600.387,"end":620.402,"text":"一個民主自由人權的國家個人的旅行我們沒有辦法完全限制可是被點名或是有可能會被這個所謂長臂管轄跨境鎮壓的對象那我們怎麼樣做好宣導跟因應的這個準備這一個政治人物他有他的判斷"},{"start":621.624,"end":628.94,"text":"跟智慧這個我們也必須要跟他做好這個之間怎麼樣去保護他之外其實他本身的判斷跟應處是非常重要的"},{"start":631.59,"end":659.211,"text":"OK 好 那時間的關係因為我們也看到就是說中國對於台灣的這個壓力是給予的壓力是越來越大那當然我剛剛有看到很多單位相關的國安單位都有提到說其實我們有很多國安法還需要更加完善的這個地方我想這個行政單位跟立法單位其實應該要共同來做努力以維護台灣的這個尊嚴也好或者是說我們這些台灣人的這個在海外跟國內的這個安全"},{"start":659.671,"end":684.612,"text":"OK 好 以上謝謝我跟委員補充一下 我們有通電或訓練外館有跟各種的發生的情境或樣貌做好我們的標準作業程序所以這個範本都有發到各個外館我們111個外館 這個是屬於在國外那當然兩岸之間有陸委會或其他的單位另外一個我想國連也都知道我們自己最清楚可能面對的情形的時候"},{"start":685.253,"end":699.206,"text":"我想這個對兩岸交流是很大的一個破壞某種程度違邦不居亂邦不入中國讓他自決於世界因為到了中國受中國統治以外在中國以外中國也想統治"},{"start":700.403,"end":724.224,"text":"這一種想要破壞國際的這個秩序啊其實已經引起全世界的一個共同要去面對跟因應那我也相信啊這個民主的開放社會最後還是會戰勝這種想要透過極權手段到海外去控制甚至去所謂的施以法律上的這種制裁的這種邪惡政權謝謝OK好 依山謝謝謝謝羅美女委員 部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":217,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時44分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，中共對台灣進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓，對此我們要表達嚴正的抗議，台灣的言論自由不容跨境侵犯。剛剛陸委會有提到，像中共對於懲獨對象的範圍是擴大，制裁力道也比以前強大，我們也很清楚，像過去確實都是由中共的國台辦、國安部等重要部門來宣布相關的規範跟措施，可是現在我們發現地方的公安局加入了，來做具體的操作。像沈伯洋委員，在10月28號的時候，由重慶市公安局來發布這個公告，表示對沈伯洋委員涉嫌分裂國家犯罪立案偵查，國台辦甚至表示這是落實「懲毒22條」的具體行動、必要之舉，當然這就是殺雞儆猴，來製造恐慌跟對立。","其實在去年我記得是10月14號的時候，沈伯洋委員被列入台獨頑固份子清單，那時候本席也曾經針對沈伯洋委員出國可能會有一些安全上的疑慮質詢國安單位，臺上的王定宇召委也被列入台獨頑固份子清單之一，你還是學長，對不對？你還是沈伯洋委員的學長。所以沈委員也好，或者是王定宇召委，大家都很擔心地討論以後他們出國時，中國會不會利用跟他們交好的一些國家。我記得剛剛是外交部有提到，也就是中國跟俄羅斯等六十多個國家簽訂了刑事司法互助的條約，也跟60個國家簽訂引渡條約，所以我們都很擔心列入名單的這些委員們，或者是他們所謂的台獨分子以後到這些國家的時候，我們很擔心他們會被這些國家引渡到中國受審。","除了這個之外，中國在境外設置警僑事務海外服務站，他們都是以服務站作為幌子來實施監控，甚至於像非洲、中南美洲有一些國家，他們甚至跟這些國家說要幫忙訓練當地的執法人員，就是利用這個方式來拓展他們國際執法的合作，像這類的話，是不是會提高我們國人到海外，甚至會有被送中的風險？所以我想了解一下，萬一發生這種事情，我們有沒有什麼其他的制衡方式？因為之前像中國曾經跟摩洛哥政府配合，在維吾爾族的異議份子艾伊尚於摩洛哥轉機時將他逮捕，要求送回中國受審；當然後來艾伊尚並沒有成功送回中國是因為聯合國人權專家的介入，所以他後來被釋放了。可是類似像沈伯洋委員也好、王定宇召委也好，如果他們到國外遇到這種狀況的話，我們有哪一些具體可以抗衡的手段呢？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，中共是靠鬥爭起家，他是無所不用其極，當代面對中共的長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓，我們當然全力做好宣導，讓我們的外館能夠協助國人如果發生一些緊急的情況，另外跟友好國家之間也能夠一起分享情資，並做好因應。當然在國外這些長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓都有作用力跟反作用力，這個也證實了中共的本質。我想全世界，包括美國，甚至像法國都曾經發生過這些情形之後，他們也有一些因應，但是我們有些國人因為出入在兩岸之間，或者是到了中共比較能夠掌控的地方，像港澳或是所謂他的協力國家，我們就要做好事前、事中跟事後的各種因應。我也要特別利用這個機會指出，中共是從20年前通過反分裂法的時候，就啟動了三戰，這三戰是所謂的混合戰在交互運用，就是法律戰、輿論戰跟心理戰，而最後的心理戰其實就是想不戰而屈人之兵，企圖造成一種紅色恐怖，讓你人人自危，你就會自我檢查，而且把這個戰場打到對方的……比如說台灣的內部，所以我們在因應上也是必須要全面性的，除了法律戰涉及到的這一些之外，其實它有背後更深層的一種混合戰，在支撐它對台的鬥爭。"],["羅委員美玲：是，部長，剛剛有提到我們請友好國家要特別留意，我們會跟他們有很多的互動。換言之，像王委員或沈伯洋委員是不是也只能到友好國家去？因為像現在的話，我們知道像他們懲獨第二十二條可以用缺席審查。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：就是他們會經過缺席審查，再來可能就會通報國際刑警組織發布紅色通緝令，他們大概的方向是這麼走嘛，對不對？以後沈伯洋委員會面對這一連串的局面嗎？先審查，再來……因為它現在已經立案偵查了，偵查當然就開始要審查，審查之後罪名確立就要通報國際刑警組織，再來就是通報紅色通緝令，未來會是這樣子的走向嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：中共對於所謂的長臂管轄跨境鎮壓，包括自己的中國人，包括台灣人，也包括其它國家的人，這種威脅引起全世界，大家都認為是威權擴張，當然我們自己要做好防範，萬一發生的時候也要營救，可是我們怎麼樣避免以及發生的時候去應處，我要特別提到的是，它不是單純的法律戰，它是所謂三戰合一的混合戰，我們在因應的時候也必須全面性來看待它，因為它這個東西想不戰而屈人之兵，想要從內部瓦解我們，造成人人自危。至於所謂缺席審判、不受追溯時效的限制，其實這是20年來他們逐步在鋪陳，只是他現在國力比較強、聲量比較大。我們自己當然政府該做的、人民該做的，以及跟國際之間的合作，還有我們跨部會單位之間的協調，包括資訊分享、預警以及發生之後的一些……包括這些旅遊警戒，這些都是我們可以做到的，可是因為有涉及到它的引渡條約或者司法互助條約，是不是因為這樣子送到所謂國際的……包括這些刑事組織，這個當然我們會去因應，也不會讓它……"],["羅委員美玲：要如何因應？如果說……"],["林部長佳龍：我們不斷地宣導，也跟友好國家不斷地針對這個東西交流，甚至包括透過很多的機制在進行，所以台灣不會孤單的，這個因應不是只針對台灣，針對台灣人、中國人跟各國的人都可能選擇性的適用，因為我們在國際上跟中國有一些涉及到他對我們直接鎖定特定的人，我們也不能夠就當作只是點名。我的意思是說怎麼去做好防範，如果發生的時候如何妥善因應。但是這個事件，我剛剛講有作用力就有反作用力，這對中共也沒有好處啦！我是說純粹在國際上來講，這就是迫害既有以規則為基礎的國際秩序的一個麻煩製造者，我們在這方面也必須要宣傳，讓國際共同因應。"],["羅委員美玲：是，看起來現在沈伯洋委員是一個很大的目標，部長，你會不會建議沈伯洋委員有哪些國家不要去、哪些國家是OK，會嗎？因為現在像中國的話，他在非洲也好、中南美洲甚至東南亞，他們其實都有很多這方面的互動，像今天就連海外警察站、服務站等等，或是有司法互助這些國家，我們會建議列入一個清單，這一些……我們說受清算者好了，會不會給予他們一份名單，哪些國家最好是不要去、哪些國家建議是安全的，我們會有這種動作嗎？就是跟人身安全有很大的關係。"],["林部長佳龍：有，我剛剛講不同層次啦！就個人層次，當然因為我們是一個民主自由人權的國家，個人的旅行我們沒有辦法完全限制，可是被點名或是有可能會被所謂長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓的對象，我們怎麼樣做好宣導跟因應的準備，就一個政治人物而言，他有他的判斷跟智慧，我們也必須要跟他做好這之間怎麼樣去保護他，此外，其實他本身的判斷跟應處是非常重要的。"],["羅委員美玲：好，因為我們也看到中國對台灣給予的壓力越來越大，當然我剛剛有看到很多單位，相關的國安單位都有提到，其實我們有很多國安法還需要更加完善的地方，我想行政單位跟立法單位其實應該要共同努力，以維護台灣的尊嚴或者是我們台灣人在海外跟國內的安全。OK，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，跟委員補充一下，我們有通電跟訓練外館，有把各種發展的情境或樣貌做好我們的標準作業程序，所以這個範本都有發到各個外館，我們111個外館，這個是屬於在國外，當然兩岸之間有陸委會或其它單位。另外一個，我想國人也都知道，我們自己最清楚可能會面對的情形的時候，我想這個對兩岸交流是很大的破壞，某種程度危邦不入，亂邦不居，中國讓其自絕於世界，因為到了中國受中國統治以外，在中國以外的中國也想統治他想要破壞國際秩序，其實已經引起全世界共同要去面對跟因應，我也相信民主的開放社會最後還是會戰勝想要透過極權手段到海外控制，甚至施以法律上制裁的這種邪惡政權。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅美玲委員，部長請回。羅委員不用擔心，我跟沈伯洋委員前兩個禮拜週末都出國開會，我們也都好好坐飛機回來了，所以中國想做的事情，我們要好好應處，但是也不用被他嚇到，沒用啦！我已經被警告3次了。","接下來陳俊宇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}},{"id":"164853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00deaf581f0621dc548220506846d94b4906dd83a37e4b4549ea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:45:14 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現金流現金流為主為什麼可以做到這種階段呢"},{"start":112.335,"end":135.134,"text":"那照說這些屬於內需市場的服務業它應該沒有所謂的海外除非它有海外據點那個分店或者加盟不至於有這麼多海外業務需要匯款所以當這些匯款的部分它會透過這個金融單位的時候難道這個銀行就讓它直接"},{"start":136.215,"end":155.744,"text":"把這個高額海外的匯款匯出去嗎雖然這個案子目前檢方還在偵辦當中但是現在類似這種現象在民間還普遍被討論這個主委是我想剛剛有幾個問題剛剛委員其實講的這是真的因為剛剛提到你也知道嗎沒有"},{"start":156.664,"end":177.7,"text":"這些業態都不是我們現在金管住管但剛才講假設牽涉到匯款特別是匯款就是說這個匯款的部分我們有一套的規定去來做這個限制比如包括最近因為詐騙很盛行我們也針對這一塊我們也在著力但是細節我不能再公開說明我只是說這部分包括反洗錢很多東西都有一定的規範在做"},{"start":178.741,"end":198.669,"text":"當然我們是看到一個案例以後回推會覺得這個是一件不可以的事這是冰山一角這不是單一案例好不好本席今天跟你講說好幾個行業我在民間在跑都聽到了委員講的是我們會從這些案例裡面再回推我們整個在防控上面有沒有漏洞"},{"start":199.389,"end":224.048,"text":"這就是今天我質詢您的重點嘛就是說已經有這種現象檢方好像偵辦了至少他在透過銀行海外匯款的時候我們要如何把關嘛對沒錯就是對異常的交易的部分我們應該會來那為什麼一開始我要問說你穩定幣什麼時候上路跟這個又有關係為什麼因為穩定幣也會變成一種媒介啊對不對它也有可能會造成這樣的結果好我們再看一下"},{"start":226.039,"end":255.359,"text":"穩定幣基本上它也有可能會造成洗錢的工具也就是說我上次的這個部分它不是透過這個銀行匯款而是透過穩定幣的這種部分來進行這個把款項匯出這個部分你要如何去防弊就是說銀行還有一個公司治理的KYC那個問題是現在的交易所你有要求類似的公司治理嗎"},{"start":256.299,"end":283.856,"text":"我們現在的交易所的話有要加強這個監管的強度嗎你剛剛說目前虛擬貨幣是屬於高度監管的現在只是登記制還沒有達到我們的高度監管還沒達到那也就是說將來如果說你開放之後有可能會類似的情況多開放一個管道甚至目前搞不好就有了因為現在交易所目前UB一大堆"},{"start":285.417,"end":303.533,"text":"現在我們9家裡面確實有在經營交易所的對啊 已經有了嘛已經有在交易了嘛所以有時候這個時候我們是不是應該就要去看有沒有可能當我們在銀行端的時候緊縮的時候他會不會跑到這邊來對 確實我們在銀行跟VASP交易的部分我們有訂定相關的規範"},{"start":304.414,"end":327.122,"text":"對 所以我們現在來講比如說他們現在上次講過他完全不能用現金做交易所以我們現在全部都要透過那個法幣帳戶所以它就跟銀行之間產生了未來我們做KYC這些都比較容易做對 我意思是說這個部分也應該要求將來對於交易所的部分那另外一個部分因為穩定幣接下來因為它的這個成本低"},{"start":327.722,"end":348.168,"text":"然後交易又快速那這種情況底下他會不會把既有的這個海外的這個外匯的這個交易量的這個內容當中把它替代掉既有外匯替代的可能這個有很多討論就是因為它穩定幣一個人最重要的是跨境支付跨境支付一定是比如說他一定是用這個"},{"start":349.989,"end":376.595,"text":"不同的幣別的穩定幣之間在做交易那我想這部分的話未來的話其實各國都很重視這是我們會跟央行來好好密切來管因為這主要是央行我就講了央行這個問題我問過那個楊總裁他說未來是不是有衝擊要看使用者的對穩定幣有無信心我不曉得你的判斷如何當然所有的貨幣的使用都跟使用者的信心就像比如說我們現在那個"},{"start":377.995,"end":402.045,"text":"其中的泰達幣他也沒有受到監管但大家為什麼覺得就是有人信任他但是有人相信因為DC是希望美國監管他才相信對 沒有錯通常CCN有市場才有法規市場已經流通過了然後法規才跟進那同樣的方式像那個Swift有一個現實上的一個交換機制但以後的虛擬貨幣的部分有沒有類似的這一種"},{"start":402.985,"end":428.397,"text":"監理的這個機構那當然是未來監理的重點剛剛有報告過就是我們對剛剛委員講說我們總共7個樣態的Vespa業者裡面其中最核心的大概就是交易平台商他會做了很多業態這未來在監管的強度應該也是最強的就是交易平台商對他的要求也比較多那這個再來就是對他的一些的資本的要求人員的管控這些應該都會比較高"},{"start":429.257,"end":454.298,"text":"有 你在相關的八大的執法當中有特別講到對於人員的部分消極跟積極資格我們對各種不同因為我們現在有七大類的幣七大類對 其中有一個所謂的交易平台商就是我們講類似虛幣的交易所這個概念他會做到很多其他業務這是很重要的部分我們在內部執法裡面我們已經會做分級的管理會做一些分級的管理"},{"start":455.519,"end":473.546,"text":"所以但是看起來總體而言有沒有可能那個金管會跟央行對於這流進來現在主要是這個UB維多這個部分的流進的這個部分的流量還有流出的這個部分將來有一個海外匯款的一個申報機制的可能性 有沒有"},{"start":473.826,"end":499.037,"text":"有 我想說剛剛那個包括央行的報告跟我們的報告裡面這裡面他要呈報的資訊裡面我們Vespa比如說這個KYC他換了這些的量這些定期的報表應該申報什麼東西應該都未來都是會滿重的就是說業者會字節然後通報給主管機關這個就是他被納管最基本的要求最基本的要求所以說都會做一個基本的一個流量管控當然好 那接下來還有一個部分"},{"start":501.118,"end":523.921,"text":"現階段我們的穩定幣在世界上最主流的部分泰達幣還有Circle的部分發行的UB這兩種為主一個大家占七成多一個大家占兩成多現階段的話穩定幣最關鍵的就目前官方所透露除了銀行之外還沒有可能誰可以發行"},{"start":524.361,"end":552.986,"text":"其實按照國外它實際上當然最重要是所謂的就是銀行機構再來還有其他像美國的話它有經過他們聯邦同意也可以還有就是比如說像比如說以香港為例它也沒有限制說比如說很多電商也有可能來申請沒有 就一般的虛擬貨幣我們不管但是就穩定幣的部分有沒有可能交易所或其他的地方可以有發行的可能性像剛剛委員提到那個兩大USDT跟USDC就不是金融機構發的是這樣"},{"start":554.927,"end":575.163,"text":"對 剛才那兩大就是USDT跟USDC就不是金融機構發的對 就不是嘛那我是不是說在台灣呢在台灣因為我們現在的規定你的穩定幣的話要金融機構先發行嘛 對不對我們是參照MICA的我們沒有在法律上把它限縮但是我們在很多公開的場合我們說我們基於省鎮"},{"start":576.564,"end":601.481,"text":"審慎的態度我們會優先的由金融機構來發行對 我知道我是說衍生後面的部分有沒有可能其他的好 那另外目前好像沒有國際的業者落地是不是我們監管得太嚴了沒有 我想我們在這個專法裡面就有一個有針對國外VASP來申請我想這個我們都是開放的未來的話我們也會針對境外像剛剛講有穩定幣來講在境外就是專法之後會比較更開放就是了對 它會有明確的遊戲規則好 那最後一個問題"},{"start":605.484,"end":621.119,"text":"那有關於這些交易所的部分有沒有可能開放一些隱身性的商品就如同去年本席在擔任這個招委的時候有去海外參訪我們去看了日本的穩定幣然後日本的部分基本上的虛擬貨幣的這個監管非常的嚴格"},{"start":623.741,"end":639.656,"text":"即便這麼嚴格的情況底下它還是有開放開放一些衍生性的商品類似像期貨的概念的商品但是需要一些特定的概感比的一個演算法的公司這個有沒有可能是台灣未來走的方向類似於日本"},{"start":640.997,"end":664.623,"text":"衍生性業務的話我剛才在報告裡面也說了就是說我們在那個虛擬資產業務裡面我們留了一個其他金主管居然同意的虛擬資產業務我們剛才說我們會根據我們現實這些業者經營的狀況以及風險管控的能力以及國際的趨勢我們再看需求隨時可以來做調整看市場發展逐步放寬應該是我們逐步漸進來做這件事越漸淺就越多元當然"},{"start":666.025,"end":667.289,"text":"謝謝主委的回覆謝謝國務委員接下來我們請賴會員委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時45分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：彭主委，報紙的這個標題做得很大！穩定幣發行納管拚明年上路。看到沒有？這麼大！還看不到，是不是？我待會請人送過去。明明現在要進入第四階段，目前還躺在行政院裡頭……"],["彭主任委員金隆：要法律通過才會進入第四階段。"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道。如果你這麼有信心，目前還躺在行政院，立法院現在又變化多端，我請問一下，如果明年可以上路的話，最有可能是明年上半年，還是下半年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個標題不是我下的，我沒有這麼說。"],["郭委員國文：不是你下的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我只是說……"],["郭委員國文：看起來，是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我只是說，假設立法通過以後，我們在半年之內要頒布相關的子法。"],["郭委員國文：所以明年上半年有機會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果法律通過以後，行政機關在半年之內要公布所有的子法……"],["郭委員國文：子法也要半年啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是半年之內，最晚半年之內要公布。"],["郭委員國文：如果要半年的話，要在上半年，除非這個會期通過，但這個會期顯然是變數重重，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這要看大院什麼時候通過，其實我們的子法都在準備中了。"],["郭委員國文：行政院都還沒送來，就不是立法院的問題。","主委，前一段時間有些案例，知名餐廳「茗香園冰室」老闆及「東引快刀手」老闆與違法、未依洗防法向數發部申請能量登錄審核的第三方支付Hero Pay合作，替海外博弈集團洗錢，更誇張的是半年洗30億！當然第三方支付是數發部的事情，但是這裡頭有共管的問題。本席在民間還有聽過麵包店、按摩店、水產店，甚至眼鏡行，還有24小時的店，都在協助洗錢。這裡頭有二個特點：一個是內需市場，二來是現金流為主。為什麼可以做到這種階段呢？照理說，這些屬於內需市場的服務業除非有海外據點、分店，或者是加盟，不然，不至於有這麼多海外業務需要匯款，所以當這些匯款透過金融單位的時候，難道銀行就讓他直接把這個高額的海外匯款匯出去嗎？雖然這個案子目前檢方還在偵辦當中，但是現在類似這種現象在民間普遍被討論。主委，你的看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有幾個問題，委員講的其實是真的，因為剛剛提到……"],["郭委員國文：你也知道這些現象嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這些業態現在都不是金管會主管，剛剛講的，假設牽涉到匯款，特別是……"],["郭委員國文：匯款就是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個匯款的部分，我們有一套規定來做限制，比如最近因為詐騙很盛行，我們針對這一塊也在著力，但是細節我不能公開說明，我只能說這個部分，包括反洗錢，都有一定的規範在做，當然我們是看到一個案例以後回推，會覺得這些不可以，但是我們會……"],["郭委員國文：這是冰山一角……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對，我們就是因為有……"],["郭委員國文：這不是單一案例，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，單一案例的價值就在於……"],["郭委員國文：本席已經跟你講好幾個行業，我在民間跑都有聽到了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是、是，沒錯，委員講的是，我們會從這些案例裡面再回推看我們整個防控上面有沒有什麼漏洞。"],["郭委員國文：是，沒有錯，這就是今天我質詢您的重點，就是已經有這種現象，檢方已經在偵辦了，至少他在透過銀行海外匯款的時候，我們要如何把關……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對，沒錯，就是異常交易的部分，我們應該會來……"],["郭委員國文：這個很關鍵。為什麼一開始我要問你，穩定幣什麼時候上路？跟這個又有關係，為什麼？因為穩定幣也會變成一種媒介，對不對？它也有可能會造成這樣的結果。","我們再看一下。基本上，穩定幣也有可能會成為洗錢的工具，也就是我上次質詢的這個部分，他不是透過銀行匯款，而是透過穩定幣把款項匯出，這個部分你要如何去防弊？銀行還有公司治理的KYC，問題是現在的交易所你有要求類似的公司治理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們的交易所應該要……"],["郭委員國文：有要加強這個監管的強度嗎？你剛剛說目前虛擬貨幣是屬於高度監管的，會比照這種方式處理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在只是登記制，還沒有達到我們的高度監管……"],["郭委員國文：還沒到嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：將來如果你開放之後，有可能會有類似的情況，多開放一個管道……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["郭委員國文：甚至目前搞不好就有了，因為現在交易所U幣一大堆啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在9家裡面確實有在經營交易所的。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！已經有了嘛！已經有在交易了嘛！所以這個時候我們是不是應該就要去看，當我們在銀行端緊縮的時候，他有沒有可能會跑到這邊來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實我們在銀行跟VASP交易的部分有訂定相關的規範。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以現在來講，比如說上次講過他完全不能用現金做交易，現在全部都要透過法幣帳戶，所以他就跟銀行之間產生了連結，未來我們做KYC等等，這些都比較容易做。"],["郭委員國文：對，我的意思是說將來對交易所的部分也應該要求啦！另外，因為穩定幣的成本低，交易又快速，在這種情況底下，它會不會有把既有的海外外匯交易替代掉的可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個有很多的討論，因為穩定幣最重要的功能之一是跨境支付，跨境支付一定是用不同幣別的穩定幣之間在做交易，我想這部分其實各國都很重視，未來我們會跟央行好好密切來管理，因為這主要是……"],["郭委員國文：講到央行，這個問題我問過楊總裁，他說，未來是不是有衝擊，要看使用者對穩定幣有無信心。我不曉得你的判斷如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，所有貨幣的使用都跟使用者的信心有關，就像現在的泰達幣也沒有受到監管，但為什麼就是有人信任它？"],["郭委員國文：就是有信心嘛！如果沒有信心，就不會流通這麼多嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：但有人相信USDC是因為美國監管，他才相信。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！沒有錯啊！通常是先有市場，才有法規嘛！在市場已經流通了，然後法規再跟進嘛！同樣的方式，像SWIFT有一個現實上的交換機制，以後虛擬貨幣的部分有沒有類似這一種監理的機構？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然是未來監理的重點，剛才有報告過，在我們總共7個樣態的VASP業者裡面，其中最核心的大概就是交易平臺商，它會做很多業態，所以未來在監管的強度應該也是最強的，對它的要求也比較多，再來就是對它一些資本的要求、人員的管控，這些應該都會比較高……"],["郭委員國文：在相關的八大子法當中有特別講到，對於人員的消極跟積極資格都會處理……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們對各種不同的類別，因為我們現在有7大類的虛擬幣，其中有一個是所謂的交易平臺商，就是我們講類似虛幣交易所的這個概念，它會做到很多業務，這是很重要的部分，我們在內部子法裡面會做分級的管理。"],["郭委員國文：會做一些分級的管理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["郭委員國文：但是總體而言，現在流進來的主要是U幣為多，這個部分流進及流出的部分，金管會和央行將來有沒有建立一個海外匯款申報機制的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，剛才包括央行的報告跟我們的報告裡面都有提到它要陳報的資訊，對於VASP業者來說，比如說KYC，它換了這些的量、這些定期的報表應該申報什麼東西，應該未來都會規範重點。"],["郭委員國文：就是業者會自結，然後通報給主管機關。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，這個就是它被納管最基本的要求。"],["郭委員國文：最基本的要求，所以都會做一個基本的流量管控啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["郭委員國文：好，接下來還有一個部分，現階段在世界上最主流的穩定幣大概是泰達幣和Circle發行的U幣，以這兩種為主，市占率一個大概占七成多，一個大概占兩成多，現階段穩定幣最關鍵的，就目前官方所透露的，除了銀行之外，還有沒有誰可能可以發行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實按照國外的發行單位，最重要的是所謂的銀行機構，再來像美國的話，有經過他們聯邦同意也可以，還有以香港為例，他也沒有限制，比如說很多電商也有可能來申請。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，一般的虛擬貨幣我們不管嘛！但是就穩定幣的部分有沒有可能交易所或其他的地方可以有發行的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：像剛剛委員提到兩大的USDT跟USDC就不是金融機構發的。"],["郭委員國文：就不是嘛！那在臺灣呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們現在的規定是穩定幣……"],["郭委員國文：要金融機構先發行嘛！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是參照MiCA的規定，沒有在法律上把它限縮，但是我們在很多公開的場合說，基於審慎的態度，我們會優先由金融機構來發行。"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道，我是說衍生到後面的部分有沒有可能有其他的。另外，目前好像沒有國際的業者落地，是不是我們監管得太嚴了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們在專法裡面就有一個針對國外VASP來申請的規定，這個我們都是開放的，未來我們也會針對境外……像剛才講的，以穩定幣來講，在境外……"],["郭委員國文：專法上路之後會更開放就是了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它會有明確的遊戲規則。"],["郭委員國文：好，最後一個問題，這些交易所有沒有可能開放一些衍生性商品？就如同去年本席在擔任召委的時候有去海外參訪，我們去看了日本的穩定幣，基本上日本對虛擬貨幣的監管非常的嚴格，即便在這麼嚴格的情況底下，他還是有開放一些衍生性的商品，類似像期貨概念的商品，但是需要有一些特定的槓桿比的演算法公司，這個類似於日本的方式有沒有可能是臺灣未來走的方向？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關虛擬的衍生性業務我剛才在報告裡面也說了，我們在虛擬資產業務裡面留了一個「其他經主管機關同意的虛擬資產業務」，我們剛才說，我們會根據現實這些業者經營的狀況以及風險管控的能力，以及國際的趨勢，我們來看需求，隨時可以調整。"],["郭委員國文：看市場發展，逐步放寬。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，應該是我們逐步漸進來做這件事。"],["郭委員國文：越健全就越多元。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝主委的回復，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員。接下來請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},{"id":"164911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f001d8231e717928cefd0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dc938357d8e0506d445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:18:31 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陳署長請委員好 次長 署長好觀光一定要跨部會來推動以前國民黨執政的時候有一個觀光推我知道今年好像行政院現在有一個觀光振興委員會資訊委員會開幾次了"},{"start":26.249,"end":52.298,"text":"今年開第三次開第三次那有什麼跨部會重大的成就嗎有沒有什麼講一個就好要求整合各個部會提出他們的要求整合早就該整合了但是以往在做很多單位是他自己行銷所以嘛所以民進黨執政八年多第九年賣到第十年現在才思考說觀光要整合"},{"start":53.318,"end":70.125,"text":"這個好像還在那種已知用火的年代啦這個經濟部跟觀光組或者是交通部好像說要推一個會展消費卡是不是要給10萬商務客來台灣一個人出資2000元是嗎順道旅遊順道旅遊進來之後給他2000塊嘛"},{"start":73.267,"end":102.129,"text":"類似消費卡是不是那是經濟部推的是不是然後經濟部聯手交通部啊我們推的是順道旅遊順道旅遊齁那沒關係 署長我想請教一下經濟部推這個類消費類悠遊卡進來之後一個人發一張兩千塊讓他幹嘛呢讓他搭車去超商買東西逛百貨公司去餐廳吃飯我想請教一下 請問一下國外的商務旅客到台灣他們花不到兩千塊吧"},{"start":104.045,"end":132.913,"text":"他花不到兩千塊嗎 他們如果不給他的卡 他也花不到兩千塊嗎他要不要吃飯 要不要坐車要吧那結果交通部連同經濟部推這個東西你給他兩千塊 他就是把他原本要花費的錢現在變成台灣人幫他付而已啊不是嗎所以怎麼會推這種交通部跟經濟部怎麼會跟他推這種我看起來好莫名其妙的東西喔欸 是"},{"start":134.843,"end":156.633,"text":"交通部公共署推的是順道旅遊比如說他來參加會議呢三天我們希望他多留兩天那多留兩天呢如果這兩天時間是在週間的話呢我們會補貼他兩千塊一天如果他是週末日的話是一天是一千五這個是公共署的政策那經濟部的那個部分我不知道"},{"start":158.534,"end":181.062,"text":"所以你們跨部會協調就有問題因為剛剛已經講了行政院有一個諮詢跨部會的會議經濟部讓那些商務客來給他錢當然是希望他留在台灣消費當然這跟觀光也有關所以這個本來就是要你推觀光署推觀光署的然後經濟部推經濟部但其實大家做的都是類似的東西"},{"start":181.442,"end":210.044,"text":"你希望他多留兩天吃雞消費他給他兩千塊叫他吃雞消費其實做的一樣東西啊資源也沒有整合啊那資源沒有整合的情況之下如果單看經濟部做的事情你就覺得你會覺得非常的荒謬嘛你會覺得非常荒謬嘛那署長剛剛講的說讓他順道旅遊我請問他的成效好嗎真的有很多人他本來是要來三天機票都已經買了三天兩夜然後因為你給他兩千塊他就願意多待兩天去改機票"},{"start":211.929,"end":231.517,"text":"這個成效有嗎我有看到相關的數據那就以我個人來看我確實覺得有待再加強所以之前數據是怎麼樣到今年是今年到1月1號到9月底的順道公關旅遊大概14件申請的金額大概是335萬7千元"},{"start":234.478,"end":246.894,"text":"那這塊部分呢就像剛剛那個說法你說幾件14件就是9個月只有14個人因為這個計畫然後去改了他的機票他是團體不是個人是團體4個人到30個人都是一個團體所以可見"},{"start":251.159,"end":278.213,"text":"這一種給不管是商務客也好或者是觀光客你花納稅人的錢用我們台灣人的錢讓他們來消費這一招是行不通的啦這個都是枝微末節很治標不治本的狀況我覺得如果說今天行政院跨部會會議要成立的話你應該要針對本的問題去做解決譬如說剛剛大家討論的問題價格的問題因為我有看到有那種公司要帶員工旅遊本來是要去南部"},{"start":279.033,"end":286.605,"text":"然後結果查一查發現價格貴的金人後來去查去日本比較便宜全團去日本就員工高興不得了同樣價錢可以出國"},{"start":287.799,"end":310.42,"text":"你要從這個方面去解決嘛然後飯店的那個價格高到嚇死人所以大家不願意兩天一夜啊都當天來回啊這個問題要去解決還有一個是為什麼台灣人喜歡去日本因為日本很多品牌你去的一去再去譬如說櫻木花道的郵程或者是木福家康的郵程或什麼之類他有很多不同的"},{"start":311.041,"end":327.409,"text":"多元的還有侏羅紀公園什麼之類就是很多大家可以我今天去這個地方我下次還可以再去台灣現在的問題就是說很多人來了一次了不起兩次可能就沒有再來的這個是很多本質性的問題我覺得我覺得應該是要去解決的啦"},{"start":328.109,"end":349.409,"text":"所以然後再來就是像我們常常在教育文化委員會我覺得那個故宮那麼好的一個國寶國寶的這個東西在那邊都不宣傳都沒有去告訴國外說我們台灣有一個故宮欸裡面有很多很棒的國寶它有很多故事然後那個故事中華文化可能你們是因為民進黨講到中華文化就排斥啦就不願意去講這個東西其實"},{"start":351.351,"end":375.646,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一開始就問整合的問題如果觀光署或行政院真的有心要推展觀光的話台灣其實大家一起來聯合推動效果會好很多真的比你們花納稅人錢啊補助那些外國人我看到你跟經濟部講一下因為新聞是講經濟部連同交通部啦如果交通部沒有的話你們就背黑鍋那真的很可笑啦那個制度給兩千塊"},{"start":376.767,"end":387.882,"text":"人家外國人來本來就會花兩千塊一定花兩千塊以上啊你等於是我洪鳳凱請他們的啊他本來就會花這個錢啊做這個效益精英評估在哪裡所以我覺得"},{"start":389.215,"end":412.445,"text":"因為署長也是剛上任應該署長就我的了解這一塊也是很熟啦應該我認為應該要提一些真正治本的方法大家都很關心觀光除了人事之外還包括在地的消費這些我們真的希望台灣在觀光這一塊不要落後人家太多啦好 謝謝好 謝謝葉仁志委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":900,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時18分）麻煩請次長及署長。"],["主席：請林次長、陳署長。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長、署長好。觀光一定要跨部會來推動，以前國民黨執政的時候，有一個觀光推，我知道現在行政院好像有一個觀光振興委員會是不是？"],["林次長國顯：諮詢委員會。"],["陳署長玉秀：政觀諮。"],["葉委員元之：諮詢委員會，開幾次了？"],["林次長國顯：今年開第3次了，年底還有1次。"],["葉委員元之：然後有什麼跨部會重大的成就嗎？你講一個就好了。"],["林次長國顯：要求整合各個部會提出他們下兩季的……"],["葉委員元之：要求整合？早就該整合了！"],["林次長國顯：但是以往很多單位都是自己行銷。"],["葉委員元之：所以民進黨執政八年多，要從第九年邁到第十年了，現在才思考說觀光要整合，這個好像還在已知用火的年代。經濟部跟觀光署或是交通部好像說要推一個會展消費卡，要給10萬商務客來臺灣一個人儲值2,000元，是嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：順道旅遊。"],["葉委員元之：順道旅遊，進來之後給他2,000塊嗎？類似消費卡是不是？"],["陳署長玉秀：那是經濟部推的。"],["葉委員元之：經濟部聯手交通部啊！"],["陳署長玉秀：我們推的是順道旅遊。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，署長，我想請教一下，經濟部推出這款類悠遊卡，旅客進來之後一個人發一張，儲值2,000塊，讓旅客用來幹嘛呢？讓他搭車、去超商買東西、逛百貨公司、去餐廳吃飯。請問一下，國外商務旅客到了臺灣，花不到2,000塊嗎？如果不給他這張卡，他花不到2,000塊嗎？他要不要吃飯？要不要坐車？要吧！結果交通部連同經濟部推出這個東西，給他2,000塊，就等於他原本要花費的錢變成臺灣人幫他付而已啊！不是嗎？所以交通部跟經濟部怎麼會推這種我看起來好莫名其妙的東西！"],["陳署長玉秀：交通部觀光署推的是順道旅遊，比如說他來參加會議3天，我們就希望他多留2天，如果多留的這2天時間是在周間，我們會補貼他2,000塊一天；如果在周末日，則是一天1,500，這是觀光署的政策。至於經濟部的部分我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們的跨部會協調有問題嘛！剛剛已經講了，行政院有一個跨部會的諮詢會議，經濟部讓那些商務客來並給他們錢，當然是希望他們留在臺灣消費，跟觀光也有關嘛！所以本來就要協調。觀光署推觀光署的、經濟部推經濟部的，但是大家做的其實都是類似的東西啊！你希望他們多留2天、刺激消費，他給他們2,000塊，要他們刺激消費，其實做的是一樣的事，資源也沒整合啊！在資源沒有整合的情況之下，如果單看經濟部做的事情，會覺得非常荒謬嘛！","關於署長剛剛講的順道旅遊，請問成效好嗎？真的有很多人本來要來3天、機票已經買了、3天2夜的行程，結果因為你給他2,000塊，他就願意多待2天、改機票？這個成效有嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：我有看到相關數據，就以我個人來看，確實覺得有待加強。"],["葉委員元之：所以之前的數據怎麼樣？"],["陳署長玉秀：從今年1月1日到9月底，順道觀光旅遊大概有14件，申請金額大概是335萬7,000元。這部分就如同……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛署長說幾件？"],["陳署長玉秀：14件。"],["葉委員元之：14件？就是這9個月只有14個人因為這項計畫改了他的機票、願意多留……"],["陳署長玉秀：不是個人，而是團體。"],["葉委員元之：團體？14件？"],["陳署長玉秀：4個人到30個人，都是團體。"],["葉委員元之：可見不管是對商務客也好或對觀光客也好，花納稅人的錢、用臺灣人的錢讓他們來消費這招是行不通的啦！這都是枝微末節、治標不治本的狀況。如果行政院跨部會會議成立，應該針對本的問題解決，譬如說剛剛大家討論的價格問題啊！我看到有公司辦員工旅遊，本來要去南部，結果查一查發現價格貴得驚人，後來再查，去日本比較便宜，結果全團去日本，員工高興得不得了，因為同樣的價錢可以出國。你要從這方面解決嘛！然後，飯店價格高得嚇死人，所以大家不願意2天1夜，都是當天來回啊！這個問題要去解決。","還有一點是為什麼臺灣人喜歡去日本？因為日本有很多品牌，會想一去再去，譬如說櫻木花道的遊程或幕府家康的遊程等，有很多不同、多元的遊程，也有侏儸紀公園之類的，總之很多，大家可以這次去這一個地方，下次還可以再去另一個地方。而臺灣現在的問題就是很多人來了一次、了不起來兩次，可能就不再來了，有很多本質性的問題，我覺得是應該解決的。再來，像我們常常在教育及文化委員會談到，故宮有那麼好的國寶，但你們都不宣傳，沒有告訴國外遊客臺灣有個故宮、裡面有很多很棒的國寶，還有很多故事、這些故事傳達中華文化……可能因為你們是民進黨政府，講到中華文化就排斥、不願意講。","為什麼我剛剛一開始就問整合的問題？如果觀光署或行政院真的有心推展觀光的話，大家應該聯合推動，效果會好很多，真的比你們花納稅人的錢補助那些外國人好。你跟經濟部講一下，因為新聞是報導經濟部連同交通部，如果交通部沒有的話，你們就揹黑鍋了。那個政策真的很可笑啦！給2,000塊！外國人來本來就會花2,000塊、一定會花到2,000塊以上啊！等於我、洪孟楷請他們的啊！他們本來就會花這筆錢，所以這個政策的意義、效益與經濟評估在哪裡？署長剛上任，但就我的了解，署長對於這一塊也很熟，我認為你應該提一些真正治本的方法，大家都很關心觀光。除了人次之外，還包括在地消費這些，我們真的希望臺灣在觀光這一塊不要落後人家太多啦！謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，謝謝官員。其實葉元之委員剛剛講到重點，今年是故宮建院一百周年，2025年是建院一百周年，但是真的很可惜，故宮沒有足夠的宣傳，其他部會感覺起來也沒有把這樣的大事讓世界各國的旅客了解，讓臺灣可以……"],["陳署長玉秀：故宮有跟著我們一起出國參展。"],["主席：好，謝謝，出國參展，但沒有……"],["葉委員元之：但沒有找觀光客。"],["主席：對，沒有任何提升。署長，謝謝你這樣的補充，但是說實在話，反而會讓我們覺得愈來愈可惜啦！","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員林德福、徐巧芯、王鴻薇、廖先翔所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答復部分，請交通部及相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0082fce35a7768df03d0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dc12ef279f21671aaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:09:05 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觀光署陳署長 交通部林次長有請次長 署長請委員好 辛苦了 午安這個 大家今天都問這個"},{"start":16.199,"end":29.531,"text":"國際旅客的這個軍令狀那我剛剛聽得蠻清楚對不對到10月下旬680萬最後兩個月目標900萬嘛好但我想要提另外一個概念就是說這900萬假設真的達標900萬好了這900萬裡面的細項的區分是什麼"},{"start":34.235,"end":55.762,"text":"比如說他們到底是來幹嘛的來待多久他是商務會展演唱會還是說真的跟團觀光或者是閃客這些詳細的數據啊我是覺得要好好的利用一下因為大家都關注門檻但是內容是什麼我之所以要問待多久還為什麼而來是因為今天大大體上的主題跟國內的旅宿業是有一定的關係啦"},{"start":56.582,"end":86.325,"text":"就是說幾百萬的人來他如果都只是短期停留兩天一夜商務會展行或者是演唱會看完就回家了這樣一個狀況的時候他其實對於旅宿真的有幫助嗎第二個是各地的分配是什麼我可能只待在台北或是在高雄一天兩天就走了那其他地方的觀光也好旅宿也好並沒有被增新到所以我覺得除了有一個明確的數字有KPI有達到目標大家都很努力之外他的路徑圖跟儀表板你們現在觀光署也好交通部也好有沒有打算做一些合理的揭露跟一些分析"},{"start":89.187,"end":108.602,"text":"您提的這個很重要理論上每一年的還有趨勢我們都要評估對 你現在單純數字的趨勢我這邊手上都有嘛這個我想會請觀光署來來評估以後來對外提供你把這詳細的會後提供一下啦這本席滿有興趣的啦是 作為未來策進但是可能不一定現在就有答案"},{"start":108.962,"end":136.859,"text":"沒關係我給你一點時間去做但我希望說未來大家在討論這個觀光客數量的時候其實我們希望拿到的東西是更完整一點大家才能深入討論嘛之所以要去談這個事就是因為我們要了解他來的模式嘛我們才知道我們的競爭力在哪裡然後你才能具體去輔導呂素燁他可能是整併他可能是轉型可能是退場他才更有依據嘛要不然我們只是以當然我們都直觀想說我們把餅做大等等當然好嘛因為餅做大大家至少會有一個基礎的提升但現在眼下的環境恐怕也很難把餅做大"},{"start":137.379,"end":161.023,"text":"這我們要面對現實嘛那你如何精耕然後讓他達成更好的政策效果這我給這個觀光署跟交通部的這個提醒第二個我們談一下旅宿業的這個歇業跟缺工的問題因為你們報告上這個目標都開得很雄偉啊什麼造園產值等等對不對可是看你們預算執行率我們最近看了審計報告我想很多人也提了這預算執行率好像有些落差"},{"start":161.403,"end":183.296,"text":"就拿這個缺工問題來解決好了這曾經編的總預算是10億元分幾年來做執行是補助業者嘛希望他可以徵聘房務啊因為他們缺工的狀況比較嚴重那本來目標是一萬六千人那實際上出來只有2617人那達成率只有16%左右那前面也有獎勵旅宿品質提升計畫這東西當然隔了一個疫情復甦期啦但這4.6億的經費執行率只有54%好像"},{"start":188.157,"end":196.364,"text":"好意滿滿誠意滿滿但是好像並沒有精準精準的用出去請問這背後的緣由是什麼可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":199.235,"end":219.818,"text":"我自己的判斷因為台灣的產業也蠻豐富的那以呂素營現在目前的薪資在整個產業裡面確實是偏低那有很多人基本上可能往高科技走尤其像現在AI所以這件事情是造成我們為什麼在求財不義的主要原因"},{"start":220.925,"end":236.146,"text":"求財不宜它有兩種狀況為什麼之前談執行率因為它有兩種可能一個是我預算編的不夠也就是說我這錢全部花下去了但是我人來的還不夠那我們當然就會支持你編更多的預算但另外一個叫執行計較不夠也就是說我明明編了這個預算但我沒有辦法用完"},{"start":236.727,"end":255.059,"text":"那我覺得在精準程度上我希望關公署有一些檢討跟改善的一個報告就是說我如果真的沒有辦法目標一萬六那我人少一點但我加薪幅度大一點它也許效果就比較好我們都希望預算編出去國會支持預算編出去可以有所提升這我希望在預算執行的方面一樣會後要有一個比較完善的報告"},{"start":255.879,"end":270.103,"text":"第三個一個小的事情啦這我們現在擔心很多國內尤其是年輕年輕好朋友的共同的心聲就是為什麼台灣人現在不喜歡國旅呢其實不會少國旅大家都喜歡有高鐵方便他一日來回聊不起兩天一夜為什麼因為國旅的價格浮動的狀況是比較大的"},{"start":274.405,"end":293.528,"text":"我們站呂素業的角度也不是不能理解因為餅太小啊那餅太小我知道薅羊毛啊今天要開演唱會對不對先一筆進場再說其他時候恐怕就冷冷清清它出現了嚴重的分配不均跟人流不穩定的情況這我想是呂素業的一個重大的危機但是這從消費者的角度來看觀感不好嘛"},{"start":293.888,"end":320.328,"text":"我們的口碑跟品質做不好的時候他沒有穩定的信賴程度的時候他也不會有穩定的客源就變成這樣然後變成我們國旅的就連你要跟世界競爭本身就困難但你連國旅的餅都越做越小的時候我想這是一個蠻嚴重的問題所以本期其實有在思考是我們針對這個旅宿業者臨時烘台房價的狀況你們現在交通部的想觀光署的想法是什麼你們補充一下沒有關係"},{"start":322.006,"end":346.173,"text":"譬如說辦演唱會的時候房價就一萬二然後下一個禮拜就剩兩千六這樣 落差其實很大嘛 對不對然後品質其實是一樣的 對不對我們呂宿主副組長能回答嗎可以報告委員我是呂宿主副組長陳怡萍那房價的部分是每個飯店業他都會跟我們合備一個這個備查的房價那因為年末的時候大型演唱會比較多尤其是這種季節性活動的時候"},{"start":346.693,"end":368.912,"text":"那房價的部分當然就會根據這個活動的機制那業者也會做一些相關的刑處效所以這個房價上面是會有一個浮動那對於這個如果有報導或者是消費者有反應有這個哄抬房價的情形的話我們會跟這個地方政府聯繫請地方政府去查處那如果查處是屬實的話就會根據發展觀光條例的規定去處罰1萬以上5萬以下的罰款我覺得要談這個事"},{"start":373.616,"end":390.024,"text":"就是說如果他真的有明確的違規事真就薅羊毛薅得太過分的時候你也只能罰他五萬我剛講現在一個晚上喊高的時候喊到一萬多啦對不對 那好幾間那五萬對他來講可能會不痛不癢這個罰是可以加次罰的不是只有罰一次就是他去查很多次的話可以用這個次數來來加去"},{"start":390.984,"end":405.391,"text":"我剛剛講的問題的核心就是因為我後台方案只是短期行為它不會是長期的所以你的累次我覺得效果我覺得大家可以思考一下本期有在思考官方發展條例要不要做一些機制上的一些調整我們對這件事再嚴謹一些核心的問題還是一樣"},{"start":406.331,"end":433.748,"text":"我之所以會談這個問題 到底不是說女書院就已經這麼可憐了對不對人事成本一上升 房價當然就上升所以品質永遠都沒辦法上升因為你沒有額外的銀彈去處理這些事情但這是一個惡性循環那我們用什麼樣的方法來處理所以我們前面跟你談了我們要針對觀光客的人流長短時間來做有效的輔導轉型甚至是允許他整病等等這是志願談這個的原因但我覺得短期的問題還是要解決我希望 我相信台灣年輕的消費者會希望政府拿出一些手段"},{"start":434.268,"end":458.029,"text":"現行的機制是是我有一個價格一個錨定但我允許一定的浮動有一個價格天花板但是天花板跟房價格的差距是比較大的那就會出現這樣的狀況我是希望在這樣子一個配套制度跟相關的法則法規上我希望交通部提一個想法我們先做交流我們再來考慮要不要啟動官方這個發展條例的修法可以嗎好辛苦了不好意思主席謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":869,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時9分）謝謝主席，觀光署陳署長、交通部林次長，有請。"],["主席：次長、署長，請。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，午安。大家今天都問國際旅客的軍令狀，我剛剛聽得蠻清楚的，到10月下旬是680萬，剩最後兩個月，目標900萬嘛！但我想要提另外一個概念，假設我們真的達標900萬好了，這900萬裡面的細項區分是什麼？比如說，他們到底是來幹嘛的、來待多久，他是商務、會展、演唱會，還是說是跟團觀光或者是散客，這些詳細的數據我是覺得要好好的利用一下，因為大家都關注門檻，但是內容是什麼？我之所以要問待多久，還有為什麼而來，是因為今天大體上主題跟國內的旅宿業是有一定的關係，就是幾百萬的人來，如果都只是短期停留，可能是兩天一夜，商務會展期或是演唱會看完就回家了，如果是這樣的狀況，對於旅宿業真的有幫助嗎？第二個是各地的分配是什麼？我可能只待在臺北或只待在高雄，一天、兩天就走了，對其他地方的觀光也好，旅宿業也好，並沒有被振興到。所以我覺得除了有一個明確的數字、KPI，為達到目標，大家都很努力之外，它的路徑圖跟儀表板，你們現在觀光署也好，交通部也好，有沒有打算做一些合理的揭露跟分析？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，您提的這個很重要，理論上每一年的，還有趨勢我們都要評估，所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你現在單純數字，其實我這邊手上都有……"],["林次長國顯：這個部分，我們會請觀光署評估以後來對外提供，作為……"],["牛委員煦庭：你把這詳細的部分會後提供一下，本席滿有興趣的。"],["林次長國顯：是，作為未來策進，但可能不一定現在就有答案。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，我給你一點時間去做，但未來大家在討論觀光客數量的時候，我們希望拿到的東西是更完整一點的，這樣大家才能深入討論……"],["林次長國顯：這也是未來延續院很重要的工作。"],["牛委員煦庭：之所以要去談這個事，就是因為我們要了解他來的模式，才能知道我們的競爭力在哪裡，然後你才能據以輔導旅宿業，他可能要整併、可能要轉型、可能要退場，他才更有依據。當然，我們都直觀地想說我們把餅做大等等，當然好，因為餅做大，大家至少會有一個基礎的提升，但現在眼下環境恐怕也很難把餅做大，我們要面對現實，你如何精耕，讓它達成更好的效果？這是我給觀光署跟交通部的提醒。","第二個，我們談一下旅宿業的歇業跟缺工問題，因為你們報告上的目標都開得很雄偉，什麼兆元產值等等，但看你們的預算執行率，我們最近看了審計報告，我想很多人也提了，這預算執行率好像有些落差，就拿解決缺工問題來講好了，曾經編了總預算10億元，分幾年來做執行，用來補助業者，希望他們可以增聘房務，因為他們缺工的狀況比較嚴重。本來目標是1萬6,000人，但實際上出來的只有2,617人，達成率只有百分之十六左右。前面也有獎勵旅宿品質提升計畫，當然中間隔了一個疫情復甦期，但這4.6億的經費，執行率只有百分之五十四，感覺雖然好意滿滿、誠意滿滿，但是好像並沒有精準地用出去，請問這背後的緣由是什麼，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["陳署長玉秀：就我自己的判斷，因為臺灣的產業也滿豐富的，以旅宿業目前的薪資……"],["牛委員煦庭：薪資很低嘛！"],["陳署長玉秀：在整個產業裡面確實是偏低，因此有很多人可能會選擇往高科技走，尤其像現在AI，這件事情也是造成我們求才不易的主要原因。"],["牛委員煦庭：求才不易有兩種狀況，為什麼我要談執行率？因為它有兩種可能，一個是我預算編得不夠，也就是說，我的錢全部花下去了，但是人來得還不夠，那我們當然就會支持你編更多的預算；但另外一個叫執行績效不夠，也就是說，我明明編了這個預算，但我沒辦法用完。在精準程度上，我希望觀光署可以有一些檢討跟改善的報告，就是說，我如果真的沒有辦法達到目標一萬六，那我人少一點，但我加薪幅度大一點，這樣也許效果就比較好。我們都希望國會支持預算編出去後，可以有所提升，我希望在預算執行的方面，一樣會後要有一個比較完善的報告。"],["陳署長玉秀：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個，一個小的事情，我們現在擔心，有很多國內……尤其年輕好朋友共同的心聲，就是為什麼臺灣人現在不喜歡國旅呢？其實不會少國旅，大家都喜歡，有高鐵很方便，可以一日來回，了不起就兩天一夜，為什麼？因為國旅的價格浮動的狀況是比較大的，我們站在旅宿業的角度，也不是不能理解，因為餅太小，餅太小我只好薅羊毛，今天有開演唱會，先一筆進帳再說，其他時候恐怕就冷冷清清，它出現了嚴重的分配不均跟人流不穩定的情況，我想這個是旅宿業的重大危機。但是站在消費者的角度來看，觀感不好，當他的口碑跟品質做不好的時候，他沒有穩定的信賴程度的時候，他也不會有穩定的客源，就會變成這樣。我們要跟世界競爭本身就很困難，但是當我們連國旅這塊餅都越做越小的時候，我想這是一個滿嚴重的問題。","所以本席其實有在思考，針對旅宿業者臨時哄抬房價的狀況，現在交通部觀光署的想法是什麼？你們補充一下，沒有關係。比如說，辦演唱會的時候，房價就一萬二，然後下一個禮拜就剩兩千六，落差其實很大，然後品質其實是一樣的，對不對？"],["陳署長玉秀：我請旅宿組副組長來回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：報告委員，我是旅宿組副組長鄭憶萍。房價的部分，每個飯店都會跟我們核備備查的房價，因為年末的時候大型演唱會比較多，尤其是這種季節性活動的時候，房價的部分當然就會根據活動的機制，業者也會做一些相關的行、促銷，所以房價上面就會有浮動。對於有報導或者消費者反映有哄抬房價的情形的話，我們會跟地方政府聯繫，請地方政府去查處，如果查處是屬實的話，就會根據發展觀光條例的規定去處一萬以上五萬以下的罰款。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我就要談這個事，就是說，如果他真的有明確的違規事證，就是薅羊毛薅得太過分的時候，你也只能罰他5萬，但我剛剛講了，有時候一個晚上喊高的時候可以喊到一萬多，如果他又有好幾間，那5萬對他來講可能會不痛不癢。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：這個罰是可以加次罰的，不是只有罰一次，就是他去查很多次的話，可以用次數來累加。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛講的問題的核心在於，哄抬房價是短期行為，不會是長期的，所以累次的效果有限。我覺得大家可以思考一下，本席有在思考觀光發展條例要不要做一些機制上的調整，我們對這方面再嚴謹一些。","不過核心的問題還是一樣，我之所以會談這個問題，倒不是要針對旅宿業，旅宿業就已經這麼可憐了，人事成本一上升，房價當然就上升，所以品質永遠都沒辦法上升，因為你沒有額外的銀彈去處理這些事情，但這是一個惡性循環，我們要用什麼方法來處理？所以我們前面跟你談了，我們要針對觀光客的人流、長短、時間來做有效的輔導轉型，甚至允許他整併等等，這就是我談這個的原因，但我覺得短期的問題還是要解決，我相信臺灣年輕的消費者會希望政府拿出一些手段，現行的機制是，我有一個價格、一個錨定，但我允許一定的浮動，有一個價格天花板，當那個天花板跟房價的差距是比較大的，那就會出現這樣的狀況。在這樣的配套制度跟相關的罰則法規上，我希望交通部提一個想法，我們先做交流，再來考慮要不要啟動觀光發展條例的修法，可以嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，辛苦了。不好意思，主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員，也請次長跟署長……您先請回沒關係，不過我簡單講一分鐘，現在問題是，就我對市場的了解，你們到最後可能也罰不到多少錢，甚至很可能沒有一家業者違規，因為重點在於根本的問題是飯店報的定價就是相對比較高的，平常時候他就用打折的價錢去促銷，現在才回歸譬如說一萬二、一萬五，他就是回歸到原價，但是對於一般的民眾來講，或是市場機制來講，其實這就算是一種哄抬，可是他有沒有符合規定？其實有符合規定，你也沒有辦法罰到他，但是我們應該要檢討的是，當初這個飯店報出來的價格，譬如是三星級飯店，可是他報出來他一個晚上的售價可以到一萬五、一萬八的時候，合不合理？因為這等於是我們合法給他一個空間，未來有機會讓他去做哄抬，他平常只有賣一千八、兩千，結果到這種特定的時候，他回歸到原價，可是我們卻無法可管，我覺得這才是一個根本的問題。我想今天大白話，也感謝牛煦庭委員把它給點出來，真的請觀光署好好地徹底檢討這樣的狀況。","再來請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f004308a4b60f9bd711d0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dc12ef279f21671aaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"13:01:24 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謝謝趙偉那有請次長還有署長林次長陳署長請委員好 次長好署長身體保重"},{"start":20.082,"end":38.021,"text":"那簡單先就教次長就是在今年的這次的題目 專案報告的題目900萬國際旅客達標的情況那目前來講的話今年的達標以及說有沒有機會能夠比照就是像是去年的目標能夠達到1000萬那次長你覺得呢"},{"start":41.324,"end":58.489,"text":"包委員 我們陳署長上任後這個目標目前設定九百那到十月二十幾號 八百多嘛 六百多了所以目標應該是有努力的空間也可能會接近"},{"start":58.809,"end":78.361,"text":"就月程上有信心可以達到900因為已經10月底680那也是期待 拭目以待那其實在這裡也是要肯定還署長我們公安署長其實上任之後到現在是馬不停蹄那在"},{"start":79.241,"end":107.211,"text":"南投縣的時候我們的一些觀光的需求那其實署長他甚至特別不僅是整個下午空下來甚至到晚上都還陪著我們的縣府還有我們的鎮長吉吉知縣我們吉吉鎮的鎮長主席他一直在會堪還幾乎到晚上很晚才回去所以在這裡還是要表達肯定那同樣的我們就直接來看一下吉吉知縣"},{"start":108.362,"end":135.554,"text":"那在目前來講就是在年底我們的集集支線我們要做復始那到時候會是我們的觀光還非常重要的一個可以再復出那同時對國旅的話相信也一定是大有助益那所以集集線火車復始的一個振興方案也是本席一直以來都非常重視跟關心的區塊那在"},{"start":136.394,"end":151.65,"text":"上次的一個協調會其實有許多的一個結論因為在這個之前也經過了多次的會刊那也希望藉這個機會不僅讓次長也知道包括署長的努力那同樣的也讓社會各界跟媒體朋友也知道"},{"start":152.21,"end":180.234,"text":"因為集集鎮過去在隧道他在整個做修復到今年的年底可以到集集站還來做復始到明年的六月可以全線通車這是鐵路三大支線那不僅是內灣或者是平溪還有集集這是我們國內重要的一個觀光資產那在集集小鎮那有很多特殊的景點那不僅他的自然景觀文化歷史還有包括他整個未來的潛力"},{"start":180.754,"end":201.529,"text":"那其實在日管處他過去對於這個急急症的這個幫忙那其實也是非常多的那也要再次謝謝署長那同樣的我們也希望說藉由周遭的衛星的城鎮市鎮還來帶動包括結合的日月潭的發展那樣才能夠更有潛力所以在景區組還跟日管處"},{"start":202.27,"end":228.291,"text":"還有許多的經費如果是在集集或水裡的話其實這邊只要發展起來同樣的是也可以帶動人潮去日月潭所以我相信這個日月潭的風景管理處他在做一個觀光的推廣應該是要做整體的一個規劃那同樣的在集集支線的部分那本席也想要就是直接的來看一下我們的這個PDT下一頁"},{"start":229.552,"end":257.518,"text":"還包括未來一個日未談的延伸還包括結合高鐵到之後帶台鐵的一個支線轉成下一頁那這個整個支線的通車會到明年的6月那所以在今年年底的話就借這個機會能夠多多邀請還有許多朋友過年期間年底就可以來集集來體驗集集小鎮下一頁那包括復始後的觀光活動還有需要觀光署還包括交通部這邊都能夠持續支持下一頁"},{"start":260.171,"end":287.287,"text":"那包括車程的鐵道節水裡結合日月堂花火節的音樂嘉年華還有水裡影展下一頁那還有集集正的環正的步道所以在軟體硬體的一個整體的工程上還包括活動的一個經營上下一頁下一頁那也希望能夠打造集集的一個夜間經濟的部分好那在這裡我們看到了包括集結殖民活動國際半城馬拉松還有以及包括"},{"start":288.007,"end":302.256,"text":"未來希望能夠推廣的南投藝術火車節包括以及鐵道的農特產的推廣活動以及地震館及周遭的光環境營造還有包括林影寺還有觀景平台 蘭和宴的自行車道"},{"start":303.237,"end":328.443,"text":"那在那時候集集政有提出了一個七大的亮點計畫那時候其實也跟署長有特別就是有討論過那在這個一億三千萬的部分那未來分兩年的部分來逐步協助這一次的集集的觀光振興那想問一下這個署長是不是可以同意那部長次長這邊是不是能夠支持"},{"start":332.899,"end":357.272,"text":"委員好 我們上次有提到這幾個項目其中除了說像集集的業經濟的部分我們認為還可以再討論一下其他部分原則上我們都會積極的來支持因為我們想集集火車站那麼漂亮它到底應該走一個什麼樣的業經濟我覺得我們可以再跟地方大家再討論一下其他部分大概是這個樣子 謝謝"},{"start":359.173,"end":382.443,"text":"那這是有共識那市長這將近一億三千萬的部分分兩年期是不是可以來協助我們南投振興集集 包委我會請關公署盡量來協助那因為這條線結合高鐵台鐵站嘛一路進到智慧毯再加上纜車是一個非常重要的廊帶那當然不只集集上次您提到的九九峰那個我們都全力來支持"},{"start":383.363,"end":406.363,"text":"好 謝謝那本期在這裡還是要再請這個署長這邊也能夠持續來協助就是在一億三千萬分兩年期這七大亮點活動的部分還能夠協助幫忙還再次表達感謝那同樣的在於地方創生的一個相關未來旅推組在協助集集的部分"},{"start":406.883,"end":429.421,"text":"那也希望旅推組這邊上次開會有提到還能夠來協助積極政工所來透過青年的團體還能夠讓將來在這個積極支線開通之後的許多振興方案還能夠再串聯地方的民宿業者還也一起來解決這個旅書業相關的問題跟振興那是不是處長再回應一下就好"},{"start":432.068,"end":448.564,"text":"我們樂見其成我覺得地方創生年輕人的創意跟能量是最強的如果這些人的力量可以再拉進來我相信對地方的發展會更有幫助好謝謝那也希望部內支長這邊也全力支持好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時1分）謝謝召委，有請次長，還有署長。"],["主席：林次長、陳署長請。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。署長，身體保重。簡單先就教次長本次專案報告的題目──900萬國際旅客達標的情況，就目前來講，今年能否達標？以及有沒有機會比照去年的目標能夠達到1,000萬？次長，你覺得呢？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，陳署長上任後，目前設定的目標是900萬，到十月二十幾號達到六百多萬了，所以對於達到目標應該是有努力的空間，也可能會接近。"],["游委員顥：原則上有信心可以達到900萬？"],["林次長國顯：因為已經10月底，現在是680萬。"],["游委員顥：那就拭目以待。其實在這裡也是要肯定觀光署長，署長上任之後到現在是馬不停蹄，在南投縣的時候，我們提出一些觀光的需求，署長不僅是把整個下午空下來，甚至到晚上都還陪著我們的縣府，還有我們集集鎮的鎮長、主席一起會勘，幾乎到晚上很晚才回去，所以在這裡還是要表達肯定。","我們直接來看一下集集支線，在年底集集支線要復駛，到時候會是我們觀光復甦非常重要的一個方案，相信對國旅也一定是大有助益，所以集集線火車復駛的振興方案也是本席一直以來都非常重視跟關心的區塊。在上次的協調會其實有許多的結論，因為在這之前也經過了多次的會勘，也希望藉這個機會，不但讓次長知道，包括署長的努力，同樣也讓社會各界跟媒體朋友知道，因為集集鎮過去從隧道整體修復，到今年年底集集站可以復駛，到明年的6月可以全線通車，鐵路三大支線──內灣、平溪，還有集集都是我們國內重要的觀光資產，在集集小鎮有很多特殊的景點，不僅有自然景觀、文化歷史，還有包括它整個未來的潛力。其實日管處過去對於集集鎮的幫忙也非常多，也要再次謝謝署長，我們也希望藉由周遭的衛星城鎮、市鎮來帶動，包括結合日月潭的發展，這樣才能夠更有潛力，景區組跟日管處還有許多的經費，如果集集或水里能夠發展起來，同樣也可以帶動人潮去日月潭，所以希望日月潭風景管理處在做觀光推廣時應該要做整體的規劃。","在集集支線的部分，未來可以往日月潭延伸並結合高鐵與臺鐵的支線轉乘，明年6月整個支線會通車，所以也藉這個機會邀請許多朋友今年年底、過年期間就可以來集集體驗集集小鎮。包括集集線復駛後的觀光活動也需要觀光署及交通部持續支持。還有車埕的鐵道節、水里結合日月潭花火節的音樂嘉年華、水里影展，以及集集鎮的環鎮自行車道，這些都需要配合軟體、硬體的整體工程和活動的經營，也希望能夠打造集集的夜間經濟。此外，集集的知名活動包括國際半程馬拉松，還有未來希望能夠推廣的南投藝術火車節、鐵道農特產的推廣活動，以及地震館及週遭的光環境營造，還有靈隱寺、觀景平臺、攔河堰的自行車道。集集鎮有提出七大亮點計畫，那時候也有特別跟署長討論過，在這1億3,000萬的部分未來分兩年逐步來協助這次集集的觀光振興，想問一下署長是不是可以同意？次長是不是能夠支持？"],["陳署長玉秀：委員好。我們上次有提到這幾個項目，其中除了集集夜經濟的部分我們認為還可以再討論一下，其他部分原則上我們都會積極的來支持。因為我們想，集集火車站那麼漂亮，它到底應該走一個什麼樣的夜經濟？我覺得我們可以再跟地方討論一下，其他部分大概是這個樣子，謝謝。"],["游委員顥：這是有共識的，次長，這將近1億3,000萬的經費分兩年期，是不是可以來協助我們南投，振興集集？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我會請觀光署儘量來協助，因為這條線結合高鐵、臺鐵站，一路進到日月潭，再加上纜車，是一個非常重要的廊帶，當然不只集集，包括上次您提到九九峰，我們都全力來支持。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。本席在這裡還是要再請署長也能夠持續來協助，還有在1億3,000萬分兩年期這七大亮點活動的部分，能夠協助幫忙，再次表達感謝。同樣的，針對地方創生未來旅推組在協助集集的部分，上次開會有提到也希望旅推組能夠來協助集集鎮公所，將來在集集支線開通之後的許多振興方案能夠透過青年的團體、再串聯地方的民宿業者，也一起來解決旅宿業相關的問題跟振興，是不是署長再回應一下？"],["陳署長玉秀：我們樂見其成，我覺得地方創生在年輕人的創意跟能量是最強的，如果這些人的力量可以再拉進來，我相信對地方的發展會更有幫助。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝，也希望部內、次長這邊也全力支持，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00e2bd8affedcaf26bd0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dcff111285ee9a4ebd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:55:29 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很多年輕人去過大修"},{"start":304.588,"end":330.118,"text":"班班客满红眼航班班班客满各位报告东北亚的航班都已经超过疫情前东南亚也超过现在只有两岸但是你看人数来说韩国来台湾旅游人数还比疫情前少了大概25万左右韩国市场在加油特别通过国际行销或者航点更密集更多元谢谢谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時55分）請航政司韓司長、觀光署陳署長。"],["主席：好，請司長、署長。"],["邱委員志偉：第一個問題就是要怎麼樣讓更多的國外旅客能夠來臺灣觀光？inbound的多元化很重要，為什麼我請航政司司長？主要從地緣政治跟地緣經濟來看，我們的主要客源來自東北亞的日、韓和東南亞的主要國家，然後再來是北美，北美大概主要是地緣政治、地緣經濟；另外，歐洲市場也是我們的主力市場，但歐洲分很大的區域，目前只集中在西歐跟中歐，我們跟芬蘭的航權目前談得怎麼樣？"],["韓司長振華：這部分我們都持續在進行當中。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有一個時間表？芬蘭航空有飛韓國，飛仁川，也有飛大阪、東京，而且是daily flight，照理說，我們應該也有這個條件。而且你如果坐芬蘭航空，航程是比較短的，同時對北歐來說，北歐五國也可以利用芬蘭轉機，所以我希望能夠加快進度，不要一直在紙上談兵，請問有沒有明確的時程呢？司長。"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，這部分必須要兩方之間都要有共識。"],["邱委員志偉：這已經談很久了，我是問有沒有一個比較明確的時程表？"],["韓司長振華：我們努力，目前是還沒有一個明確時程表。"],["邱委員志偉：那不是白問了？我是說比較明確的時程表。林次長，你總要有個目標，我們才能監督，只要有個目標，大概什麼時候可以談完？"],["林次長國顯：是，報告委員，航權的部分民航局局長帶隊去談了，現在是航班的部分還沒有指定航空公司，也就是沒有航空公司表達意願。北歐的部分是第一個談下來的。"],["邱委員志偉：芬蘭航空願意飛嗎？"],["林次長國顯：沒有，就是現在航空公司還沒有指定，兩邊的航權剛剛談定。"],["邱委員志偉：有第五航權嗎？"],["林次長國顯：有三、四、五，還有延遠。"],["邱委員志偉：所以有第五航權嘛！"],["林次長國顯：是，我記得一週應該是14班。現在就是只要航空公司有意願，可以在航權授權範圍內來申請。"],["邱委員志偉：這個就牽扯到下一個議題，就是說怎麼樣讓北歐的人民可以了解臺灣的觀光之美。"],["林次長國顯：了解。"],["邱委員志偉：現在主流媒體有臺灣的觀光形象廣告，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["邱委員志偉：幾乎每個國家都有，BBC、CNN，我剛剛看到很多馬來西亞、泰國什麼，臺灣有沒有這方面的形象廣告？"],["林次長國顯：觀光署在外面有16個代表處，基本上國內的國際組也都會把……"],["邱委員志偉：對，我是說CNN或BBC這種主流媒體有沒有投放廣告？"],["林次長國顯：應該有買。"],["邱委員志偉：我好像沒看到。"],["林次長國顯：我們把資料再給委員，這個應該是必要的。"],["邱委員志偉：它的頻率是很高的，幾乎每一節新聞都有，不要說馬來西亞就好了。"],["林次長國顯：是，我們把資料給委員，應該有，這是必要的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分一定要加強主流媒體的廣告投放，透過主流媒體讓更多的主要國家知道臺灣之美，他們才有興趣，有興趣才有意願。未來2030年觀光立國，我是覺得這樣，我們一定要分主要市場跟次要市場，主要市場絕對是在亞洲，扣除中國之外，主要還是在亞洲，亞洲的部分，日本有成長沒有問題，韓國也有成長空間，韓國旅客在疫情之前是124萬，現在才100萬左右，所以你的航點要密集，航線也要密集，比如說慶州你也可以飛，大田也可以飛，清州也可以飛，現在你只飛大邱，雖然很多臺灣人不知道大邱，但是它是第三大城還是第四大城，很多年輕人去過大邱，紅眼航班班班客滿。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，東北亞的航班都已經超過疫情前，東南亞也超過，現在只有兩岸的沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！但是你看人數，韓國來臺灣旅遊的人數比疫情前還少了大概25萬左右，所以韓國市場要再加油，可以透過國際行銷或者讓航點更密集、更多元，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：了解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00d6d14c7c383b677cd0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dcff111285ee9a4ebd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:46:34 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謝謝主席請我們長賜還有我們觀光署署長林次長 陳署長請好 吳妍好好 署長今天好像有感冒 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需要繼續努力我們的數字顯示旅客量是兩億兩千萬人次一年 去年但是這個停留的天數比較短變成比以往1.39的樣子"},{"start":222.822,"end":225.626,"text":"沒錯這也許有人講是因為說高鐵太方便了尤其西部他寧願趕快買一個票再回去所以你們去做這個近六年的這個就是國內旅遊也是一樣啊"},{"start":238.943,"end":254.674,"text":"有超過七成的113年 超過七成的人 大概七成五的人根本不在外過夜這就問題 這剛才大家也講到國旅線問題可能很重要 大家談到的就是房價過高那我請問一下署長 國旅還有救嗎台灣的國旅還有沒有救國旅當然還有救 怎麼救你們要怎麼救"},{"start":265.129,"end":289.893,"text":"國旅我覺得我們有些景點確實是數十年來如一日都沒有新的項目所以原本特色的景點如何在有些新的項目這也是我們努力的那第二個是我們觀察到現在目前國內國旅的消費行為基本上就是採取區域型的旅遊比較多要麼就是目的型導向比如說像以這一兩年高雄的"},{"start":290.713,"end":310.759,"text":"的演唱會經濟非常的熱絡所以基本上當日來回高雄也很多這種就是但是問題是就是其實對高鐵是有幫助的但是對我們旅遊住宿沒有幫助剛才講說像這個來我們看下一張我們在8年有300家的旅行社解散"},{"start":311.959,"end":337.84,"text":"我們光是近三個月有12家旅行社倒閉了有31家你們公佈31家停業了那麼像以高雄來說五星級的飯店爆熄燈潮雖然剛才講這是所謂的演唱會經濟學雖然帶了人潮到了高雄可是他沒有住宿所以高雄的一些老字號飯店陸陸續續的"},{"start":339.781,"end":365.868,"text":"停業或者是關閉所以我要講就是說為什麼我們一直覺得觀光尤其國旅這麼重要那大家其實在講罰價問題 房價已經不是這兩年的事情了講了快10年了快10年好像也沒有辦法解決那我請問一下今天早上行政院所公布的旅宿月可以開放外籍移工我想請問署長"},{"start":368.289,"end":382.31,"text":"這有沒有助於房價的降低國內飯店旅社房價降低有沒有幫助希望可以"},{"start":383.058,"end":400.45,"text":"希望 那你們可不可以設定一個目標值否則的話當然沒錯啦 房價市場機制可是剛剛都講了 這所謂市場機制跟國外比實在是太昂貴了對不對 太昂貴那其實我們今天開放外籍移工某一個程度也是希望能夠解決這相關的問題"},{"start":402.151,"end":426.265,"text":"所以對署長來講或次長來講可不可以你們經過這麼多討論可不可以有一個目標啊這KPI啊我希望在這一波在一季我可以看到起碼有5%到10%的房價可以降低反應或者是更多你們有沒有做這樣的一個目標否則的話我們今天做專報"},{"start":427.566,"end":446.958,"text":"可能到了三個月後半年後還是一樣的專報沒有改善只是我們看到更多旅行社解散更多的這個飯店熄燈所以你們有沒有一個目標今天行政院公布的最新政策"},{"start":448.993,"end":471.362,"text":"在這邊跟我們報告我們大概沒有辦法去強迫要求旅宿業一定要降價降多少但是我們會一直鼓勵他們像我們現在在光屬的旅宿網上面大概有一千多個是優惠的就是說如果要找更優惠的旅宿可以到上我們的旅宿網上面來"},{"start":472.242,"end":492.682,"text":"那像包含這次我們也鼓勵大家要去互相串聯像今天早上有特別提到那種就是連宿就是這種部分希望透過觀光圈的方式讓大家把那個比如說住宿裡面含油塵就是增加如果價格不降是否增加油塵的方式來處理"},{"start":493.903,"end":522.816,"text":"那我们这种会用鼓励鼓励的方式来希望业者能一起配合让我们的整个环境变得更好我希望你们加油啦刚刚讲说至少能让这七成五的人不去过夜的里面只要有一成的人一成的人愿意留下来过夜我想就会很明显看到一些改进国旅有救我希望国旅有救但是一定要拿出具体的作为这个我们再具体演绎一下谢谢"},{"start":523.456,"end":524.07,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":791,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時46分）謝謝主席，請常次，還有觀光署署長。"],["主席：林次長、陳署長請。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：署長今天好像感冒了，辛苦了。今天主要的焦點都聚集在我們現在的觀光人次一直沒有辦法達成目標，去年我們沒有辦法達成設定的目標，所以在今年年初，交通部部長陳世凱接受中央社專訪時表示要整頓觀光，爭取高端客，顯然今年應該就是把提升整個觀光客人次作為交通部的一個重點施政目標。但是到現在為止，大家可以看到，高端變成是我們的房價很高端，請問我們的高端觀光客在哪裡？今年以來，到底部長口中所說的高端觀光客在哪裡？我們看這些指標，甚至是比疫情前還減少，我框起來的部分，是來臺旅客每人平均的每日消費數，比疫情前還要減少，顯然部長所講的今年要開發高端客已經跳票。","好，再來看我們今年出國的旅客人數，是更增加的，今年稍早的數據，前三季是出現逆差，也就是出境比入境多了超過800萬人次，如果以消費金額來講，請問次長或署長，今年我們出國旅遊的消費總金額，是不是會超過新臺幣1兆元？你們有這樣評估過嗎？因為去年已經超過9,000億了，今年會不會超過1兆元？唉！怎麼你們現在還再討論！現在我國旅客出境人數的消費金額，已經達到總預算的三分之一，過去我們一直希望能夠補助國外的觀光人士，過去我們不是一直都有補助嗎？如果今天我們到國外消費的金額這麼高，其實已經把臺灣很多的資源都帶出國了，所以我們現在要討論的是，國旅到底能不能提振？次長，請問一下，國旅還有救嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，國旅是還需要繼續努力的，我們的數字顯示去年一年旅客量是2億2,000萬人次，但是停留的天數比較短，變成1.39……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯……"],["林次長國顯：比以往稍短，就是當日來……"],["王委員鴻薇：有人講這也許是因為高鐵太方便了，尤其西部，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：是，當日來回的比較多。"],["王委員鴻薇：他寧願趕快買一張票再回去……"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們去做近6年國內旅遊的統計也是一樣，113年有超過七成，大概七成五的人根本不在外過夜，這就是問題，剛才大家也講到，現在大家談到的國旅問題很重要的就是房價過高。","我請問一下署長，國旅還有救嗎？臺灣的國旅還有沒有救？"],["陳署長玉秀：國旅當然還有救，就是我們必須努力……"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼救？你們要怎麼救？"],["陳署長玉秀：關於國旅，我覺得我們有些景點確實是數十年來如一日，都沒有新的項目，所以原本的特色景點如何再有些新的項目，這也是我們努力的。第二個是我們觀察到，目前國旅的消費行為基本上是採取區域型旅遊的比較多，要不就是目的型導向，像這一、兩年高雄的演唱會經濟非常的熱絡，所以基本上當日來回高雄的也很多，這種就是屬於……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這對高鐵是有幫助的，但是對旅遊住宿沒有幫助。剛剛講到，我們8年有300家的旅行社解散，光是近3個月有12家旅行社倒閉了，你們公布有31家停業了。以高雄來說，五星級的飯店爆熄燈潮，剛才講所謂的演唱會經濟學，雖然帶了人潮到高雄，可是他沒有住宿，所以高雄的一些老字號飯店陸陸續續停業，或者是關閉。我要講的就是我們一直覺得觀光，尤其國旅這麼重要，大家問題其實在講房價問題，房價已經不是這兩年的事情了，講了快10年了，好像也沒有辦法解決。我想請問署長，今天早上行政院公布旅宿業開放可以引進外籍移工，這有沒有助於房價的降低？對國內飯店、旅社房價降低有沒有幫助？"],["陳署長玉秀：希望可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：希望，那你們可不可以設定一個目標值？當然沒錯，房價是市場機制，可是剛剛大家都有講了，這所謂的市場機制與國外比，實在是太昂貴了，對不對？太昂貴！其實我們今天開放外籍移工某一個程度也是希望能夠解決這相關的問題。對署長或次長來講，經過這麼多討論，你們可不可以有一個目標？這是KPI，比如希望一季可以看到起碼有5%到10%的房價降低或者是更多，你們有沒有做這樣的一個目標？否則的話，我們今天做專報，3個月後、半年後，可能還是一樣的專報，沒有改善，我們只是看到更多的旅行社解散、更多的飯店熄燈，所以你們有沒有一個目標？就今天行政院公布的最新政策。"],["陳署長玉秀：在這邊跟委員報告，我們大概沒有辦法去強迫要求旅宿業一定要降價多少，但是我們會一直鼓勵他們，像我們現在在觀光署的旅宿網上面大概有一千多個是優惠的，就是如果要找更優惠的旅宿，可以上我們的旅宿網，包含這次我們也鼓勵大家要去互相串聯，像今天早上有特別提到聯宿，希望透過觀光圈的方式，比如住宿裡面含遊程，就是如果價格不降，是否以增加遊程的方式來處理，這種我們會用鼓勵的方式希望業者能一起配合，讓我們的整個環境變得更好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望你們加油啦！剛剛講，至少能讓這七成五不去過夜的人，其中只要有一成的人願意留下來過夜，我想就會很明顯看到一些改進。我希望國旅有救，但是一定要拿出具體的作為。"],["陳署長玉秀：我們再具體研議，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0057aaf72078529e95d0f4389371b7337b118b5463d89f95dc9b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:34:36 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了解我們會同步確認以後也通知外交部請他們幫忙"},{"start":144.277,"end":170.012,"text":"接下來是我們觀光的問題剛剛大家已經講了10億元加進去16000人只來2600署長我想問一下我們研究過現在問題除了剛剛講的缺工之外其實不是缺工是也不是缺錢是為什麼台灣的旅宿業沒有人願意做房屋不知道辛苦"},{"start":171.516,"end":180.66,"text":"好啦 部長 署長 我加給你個數字喔台北精華酒店以他今年1月1號的一個房價一個晚上高達大概新台幣2萬6千塊"},{"start":182.768,"end":201.033,"text":"在香港的香港麗金酒店跟他同等級大概是一萬六千塊也就是說台灣的五星級飯店的房價跟國際級的大都市同等級的房價我們比人家一個房間一個晚上足足多了一萬塊台幣"},{"start":203.157,"end":231.694,"text":"不是沒有錢啦是沒有把錢給我們該給的人啦香港的京華酒店現在房屋院的薪資他們在招聘的是三萬三千塊台幣起跳香港的麗金房屋他們每個月的薪水是九萬塊台幣起跳我們不是缺工我們是缺我們的相關旅事院沒有把這些錢給到這些該給的人我們的收的錢沒有比人家低喔"},{"start":233.379,"end":244.71,"text":"如果按照這樣的比例來說房價比人家高一萬一個晚上但是我們的薪水是人家的三分之一不到這才是問題"},{"start":246.915,"end":274.04,"text":"當然我們不是說房價不能這麼高而是你對標了國際級的大飯店大城市但是我們的薪水沒有對標國際這才是問題兩位如果這件事情只是中央我們給錢給到他他沒有給到底下或者是他的工作環境不好現在所有你們的報告裡面說住宿跟餐飲業離職的主因就是待遇不符期望"},{"start":275.836,"end":287.643,"text":"你今天開放移工對我們的旅宿業的成本下降一樣國人還是沒有增加他的收入這才是我們的問題吧兩位你們的意見呢確實如委員講的那我們現在是積極的在鼓勵我們的旅宿業要幫同仁加薪"},{"start":297.15,"end":318.468,"text":"加薪要成為他的一些相關的KPI而且要成為政府要不要給他們這些相關資訊的或者是將來有協助補助的條件現在的中階技術人力他是連動的他是一定要先幫本國勞工先加薪他才能使用中階技術人力"},{"start":319.73,"end":335.431,"text":"所以我剛剛講的這個才是問題嘛他們台灣的房子房價國人為什麼有這麼多的疑慮因為台灣大部分覺得台灣國旅的房價是高的但是為什麼找不到人是因為我們沒有把房價的反應讓"},{"start":337.478,"end":351.517,"text":"基層的員工受惠這才是問題我說缺工錯 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那有請次長和署長林次長陳署長請委員好次長好不知道次長署長平常會不會看報紙"},{"start":18.863,"end":40.552,"text":"網路報那我就不知道說你們有沒有看到這份新聞現在就在講說很多的老街都冷清清然後店家不是做二修五要不然的話就是提早打烊還有有些譬如說像新莊老街他們現在只剩下只有娃娃機很多的老街生意都做不下去那麼"},{"start":42.313,"end":56.604,"text":"當然新聞上面這邊是講的是英格老街啦但是事實上不管是九份啊淡水啊還有烏來然後三峽老街其實都有同樣的狀況那麼這些也凸顯出就是說現在老街商圈真的是經營非常的困難"},{"start":57.384,"end":86.446,"text":"那我們來看看 其實國內的旅遊基本上也是很不樂觀根據觀光署自己的報告你們觀光署自己的報導就是中秋節 雙十節 光復節等三個年假全台旅宿訂房率都不到五成所以由此可見台灣的觀光 我們的國旅問題真的是很嚴重請問這個署長跟次長你們認為說今年的國旅的景氣是好的嗎"},{"start":89.482,"end":114.06,"text":"你们认为是好的吗国旅的部分根据观光署的报告今年是有到应该是有2.2亿人次人数是多但是这个停留天数相对少特性已经有点转变就是变成当日来说我个人认为说人数固然重要更重要的是说它能够带来给台湾的观光经济以及它的消费力有多高"},{"start":114.7,"end":133.933,"text":"來了一堆人但是不消費我們的觀光經濟大家不消費然後我們經濟就不會好尤其對觀光業者還有開店的這些商家他們沒有錢賺這是一個很現實的一個議題我們知道其實從疫情之後民進黨政府因為跟大陸的關係惡化所以也連帶的影響到大陸客來台的這個觀光經濟我們來看看這10年來的"},{"start":145.14,"end":156.165,"text":"到今年只剩下44萬當然雖然說比去年23萬要成長一些但是等於說少了10倍就現在就是還應該是少了90%只剩下這個1%那麼如果說從觀光經濟來看的話2015年當時也還有44%就是入客對於台灣帶來的觀光經濟佔比44%"},{"start":170.932,"end":195.519,"text":"10年之後到現在也只有占比5%所以也都是10倍之差那麼我想在第一線的業者是感受最深像那個日月潭的這個開船艇的船家他就說這個入客沒來他們的業績非常的慘淡那我想請問署長就是說這些因為民進黨政府跟大陸關係的惡化所帶來的我們的觀光經濟的損失應該由誰來負責"},{"start":200.221,"end":202.737,"text":"觀光署難道沒有責任嗎交通部沒有責任嗎"},{"start":203.559,"end":228.98,"text":"包委員疫情後逐步在恢復那恢復的過程中我們是希望能夠透過觀光小兩會就所有的旅遊安全跟這個健康有序的發展能做一個協調很好就是剛剛次長你們講到說觀光小兩會我記得就是說署長您在第一7月24號第一次來立法院備詢的時候在回答陳雪生委員的質詢您當時有說您會開會後來你們到底開會了嗎"},{"start":233.345,"end":257.708,"text":"你們所謂的觀光小兩會你們實際上有開嗎到目前為止有開嗎我請旅行業組組長主席委員好 我是旅行業組組長我們二月的時候其實已經發文給觀光小兩會的海旅會但海旅會到現在都目前為止都沒有正式回文所以我們也希望他們可以盡快回文所以是他們不想跟你們談"},{"start":259.709,"end":282.376,"text":"是這樣嗎還是你們有沒有積極去做嘛對不對你們當時就說是會說當時預計7月底的時候會有開會就看起來都沒有進展總之你們現在都沒有進展那我現在要講的就是說我預期你們接下來也不會有什麼進展因為你們對於這個我們的大陸團到現在為止你們都還沒有解令你們禁團令一直到現在都還持續著對不對你對於大陸來講他為什麼還要開放他的觀光客來"},{"start":284.997,"end":293.702,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實就是想要跟陸方表達說希望觀光小連會先開會那陸方到現在都沒有給我們不用開那麼多的會了大家你們只要是政策一鬆綁他們那裡就會釋出更多的這個路客來我們現在看看日本韓國新加坡這些國家"},{"start":305.848,"end":325.183,"text":"他們一直都不斷的在爭取入客觀光署沒有看到嗎 交通部沒有看到嗎 陸委會沒有看到嗎我必須說現在陸委會好像儼然是變成所有機關的這個太上機關你們都變成他們的下屬機關了所有事情都要配合陸委會做人家日本這個放寬入客簽證帶來給他們這個日本的消費的經濟大破3000億啊"},{"start":332.768,"end":359.246,"text":"韓國現在也是說以後對於大陸觀光客開放免簽新加坡也是根據他們的這個旅遊統計報告也是給他們帶來35.8億的這個這樣子的一個觀光經濟是在各國的旅客當中貢獻最大的對不對 交通部觀光署你們真的是要檢討你們到底有沒有捍衛這些國內的觀光業者他們的權益委員我們也是希望陸方可以盡快跟我們來開會啦"},{"start":361.231,"end":381.588,"text":"你們都沒有釋出山 你們一直要求人家我是覺得說這個不需要再跟路方開你們只要是自己主動釋放利多他們就會配合的一起他們就會跟進開放更多的路客進來我對你們其實已經非常的失望了那這次也會把我的失望體現在你們的預算上面 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謝謝署長那我希望就是後續也可以提供一些書面資料 謝謝那另外一個呢其實在鄭文燦市長的時候他有爭取北橫國家風景區那我們的族人設計在這個北橫的有復興區還有宜蘭的大同鄉所以呢他們很關切那我在新聞上就是有看到就是那個卡關的旅遊桃園的關旅局是這樣回應"},{"start":162.529,"end":181.927,"text":"他說因為涉及到60處的原住民部落要做諮商同意然後呢又提到說要怎麼跟他們共管所以卡關很久所以我這邊是想要特別了解一下就是目前的進度如何有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":183.993,"end":211.734,"text":"報告委員有關於北橫國家風景區的深設那峽館內大概有60個原住民部落那其中我們最近的一個數據是有30個部落會議已經同意他們也有部落會議的機制存在那至於沒有的部分他們就說商請原民會也同意用諮商會議的方式去處理所以你們預期還要多久"},{"start":212.555,"end":237.438,"text":"這個部分我們可能會跟桃園縣政府 桃園市政府還有園民會這邊我們會積極主動的去請這兩個單位我們會來主責去來做協調的工作那我也希望後續能夠收到一個書面的報告那最後一個小問題就是說我看到2024年物風他有納入三商管理處"},{"start":238.638,"end":259.85,"text":"那所以呢在中興新村我們也看到新聞媒體報導就是他的環境優化拼觀光那在日月潭管理處呢其實他也在像信義鄉地利村他也去做了一些就是觀光景點的畫設我要說的是大家都很喜歡"},{"start":261.28,"end":279.579,"text":"大家都好喜歡我們原住民不喜歡國家公園但是好喜歡風景管理處那但是我要說的是因為我之前我在幾年前就是有啟動說希望可以延伸貿管處的北往那馬下"},{"start":280.821,"end":301.284,"text":"即便他們比較喜歡是在阿里山啦因為他們靠阿里山比較近那屏東這邊的話希望往南延伸到有北大吳山的這個太湖鄉那我知道說明會好像也都辦完了那我不太曉得說進度到底如何因為感覺也是卡關很久了"},{"start":304.113,"end":324.491,"text":"部分不管是申請擴大範圍還是你設立我想這個主導權都是在地方政府還有在第一線如果他們有需求可能就要由他屏東縣政府他們能夠提報那個資源說明書上來我們就會所以是縣政府還沒有提報"},{"start":325.591,"end":351.763,"text":"所以是兩邊高雄市府跟屏東縣府還沒提報他們要提報資源說明書我們才能夠進入到畫社擴大的程序我想地方政府是樂意的因為我以茂林來講好了我自己的家鄉其實他享受這個資源三十多年了那我覺得這個觀光資源的效益應該要外溢要不然他跟旁邊的這些原鄉其實經過二三十年"},{"start":352.563,"end":370.994,"text":"其實差異性就出來了更何況原鄉本來就應該處處都是風景區那希望有這樣的一個支持那其他的部分我們會來努力好不好那也希望得到一個進度的說明報告好謝謝市長謝謝署長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時13分）謝謝主席，有請次長跟觀光署署長。"],["主席：請林次長、陳署長。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好，這部分我也希望後續能夠收到一個書面報告。","最後一個小問題是，我看到2024年霧峰有納入參山國家風景區管理處；在中興新村，我們也看到新聞媒體報導它環境優化拼觀光；在日月潭國家風景區管理處，其實它也在信義鄉地利村做了一些觀光景點的劃設。我要說的是，大家都很喜歡、大家都好喜歡，我們原住民不喜歡國家公園，但是好喜歡風景管理處。但我要說的是，我在幾年前有啟動將茂林國家風景區往北延伸到那瑪夏，即便他們比較喜歡在阿里山，因為他們靠阿里山比較近；屏東這邊則是希望往南延伸到有北大武山的泰武鄉。我知道這件事情的說明會好像也都辦完了，可是不太曉得進度到底如何，因為感覺也是卡關很久了。"],["林組長秀霞：這個部分不管是申請擴大範圍或是申請設立，主導權都是在地方政府，如果第一線有需求，可能就要由屏東縣政府提報資源說明書上來，屆時我們就會依照……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是縣政府還沒有提報？"],["林組長秀霞：對，這……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是兩邊，高雄市政府和屏東縣政府還沒有提報？"],["林組長秀霞：對，他們要提報資源說明書，我們才能夠進入到劃設、擴大的程序，當然我們也會去瞭解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想地方政府是樂意的，以我自己的家鄉茂林來講好了，其實它享受這個資源三十多年了，我覺得這個觀光資源的效益應該要外溢，要不然經過二、三十年，它跟旁邊的這些原鄉差異性就出來了，更何況原鄉本來就應該處處都是風景區，希望有這樣的支持，其他的部分我們會來努力，好不好？這個部分我也希望能得到一個進度的說明報告。","好，謝謝次長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來再請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f003b5e6ac3806d8b01d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9b237660b68eba81e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:08:13 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提供大毛巾這件事情，我個人也覺得這件事情對來到臺灣的國際遊客是相對不友善的。要如何兼顧友善服務和我們的環保政策？還是希望得到一個平衡。這件事情我們內部會再重新檢討，希望還是優先提供友善的服務給旅客，然後又能去落實我們的環保政策。"],["陳委員冠廷：署長，同樣的連鎖飯店，比方說我們去日本或者是其他國家同樣等級的連鎖飯店，但是我們現在不僅備品不提供，連服務都下降。同樣等級的飯店，甚至我們去國外其他旅館，付的錢更少，不管是匯率關係，還是其他因素，國內卻利用這些禁令、指令，降低服務消費者的標準。所以不是只有一次性的備品而已耶！他們相關的服務、本來在其他國家同等級的飯店、同一個系列的連鎖店，他們等於是被降格啊！","所以，當我們有這樣的禁令之後，其實有很多旅宿業者直接跟我們投訴，說這對他們經營飯店來講，這些領導品牌會直接指責我們國家這些旅宿業者，說：你這樣是把我們的品牌降格，我們要考慮跟你的合作關係。這樣有辦法增加國旅嗎？有辦法增加國旅的價格和品質嗎？沒有辦法嘛！如果沒有辦法做出差異化、特色化的話，怎麼跟人家競爭？而且不只是來這邊觀光的人而已，還有參與會議的商務旅行人士，你要人家自行攜帶全部的備品嗎？","我還必須強調，其實你說一次性備品，我們去日本的時候都會有啊！他們會把地方性的特殊產品融入備品裡面，給賓客賓至如歸的感覺，或者是超越賓至如歸的感覺，這就是他們想要的特殊體驗啊！可是我們有做這些事情嗎？不斷的禁令！現在已經說要擴大到零礦泉水、飲用水、免洗餐具，所有的牙刷、牙膏，一次性備品全部都不提供，卻沒有其他方案！請問署長，你們有什麼其他的方案？有沒有跟其他環保單位討論怎麼樣可以共融？","你們應該要共融，而不是用這種懲罰性的、上對下的方式！請用獎勵的方式，不要用上對下的方式，不是每個人的價值觀都是一致的！這是一個多元的國家，差異化、精品化，怎麼樣能夠爭取到各個不同國家的旅客，他們的價值觀不一樣，有些人可以去最環保、友善的旅宿店嘛！"],["陳署長玉秀：我同意委員的意見，就是我們不要用單一的標準去看待整個，因為觀光是服務業，而且我們重視體驗，這件事情希望能有一點改進的機會。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了重視體驗之外，我不好意思說，有許多要來臺灣的商務觀光旅客就直接跟我們說：因為你們不提供牙刷，所以我們直接出去自己大量購買。這樣有比較好嗎？甚至有些提供的業者是用環保材質，包括CO2減量、石油減量等等，全部應用到他們的材質裡面，這同樣在散播他們支持環境的概念啊！你讓他們自己去買，買到更貴的……我不覺得這是好的方式，麻煩署長再協助一下。"],["陳署長玉秀：是，我們會檢討。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","因為後面還有比較多委員要質詢，所以現在宣布：等黃珊珊委員質詢完畢，我們再休息5分鐘。謝謝。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00728a5752d3d7cf47d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c996ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:02:16 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署長請市長午安市委員好我想先就叫我們交通部針對"},{"start":13.018,"end":34.01,"text":"目前我們宜蘭的相關觀光的量能我一直期待說宜蘭縣能夠成為我們全台最大的一個觀光大縣之前也就教過我們署長就是針對宜蘭縣是否可以另外再單獨成立一個"},{"start":35.23,"end":61.848,"text":"這個風景區管理處那因為署長也大概說明了一下那我也不再這個追問這個問題了那在這個整個宜蘭縣的部分我們是不是可以朝向一個這個觀光圈的模式來進行針對我們的生態文化還有在地產業的資源怎麼去做串聯希望能夠有效的把這個觀光的這個產能把它活化起來"},{"start":62.668,"end":80.636,"text":"那近期內我們在推動的這個宜蘭的北方的這個魚鐵五魚村那我想請教就是後續相關的軟硬體設施還有我們相關的觀光行銷的配套活動等等這個部分我們目前這個辦理的情況如何我這個是不是請我們林組長因為軟硬體的部分他比較熟好"},{"start":93.797,"end":113.972,"text":"因為我想依然五漁村的推動我們東北角管理處現在客鎮積極的在對於那個五漁村如何做做行銷推廣的有一個委辦案今年年底會完成那完成之後我們可能就按照他的結論事項我們就逐一的去去實現這樣子"},{"start":115.728,"end":130.223,"text":"好 就都在掌握相關的期程都在進行當中那未來我想因為宜蘭縣本身它這個海岸線就非常的長100多公里那我們北邊有一個這個頭城的漁鐵五漁村"},{"start":133.306,"end":153.354,"text":"那南邊從蘇澳到南澳的部分我們是不是也可以試著來規劃一個相關的鐵道觀光的一個路廊也能夠來活化我們南方這個宜蘭的南邊的這些我們觀光景點有沒有可能可以 我們來演繹可以啦 演繹看看那在"},{"start":155.371,"end":177.782,"text":"下個會期或是在有機會的時候我可能這個議題我會再請教署長看有沒有什麼進度好另外在我們這個觀光旅宿業方面目前許多業者一直在這個反映的就是缺工的問題缺工的問題那我想就這個問題我想請教我們交通部這邊對於我們"},{"start":180.203,"end":188.81,"text":"整個全國啦 全國的這個缺工的問題在觀光旅宿業我們有沒有什麼相對應的方式可以來協助他們解決這個困難"},{"start":194.704,"end":219.981,"text":"剛剛有說明過一個是我們把橋外生擴大他留任那第二個是增加外籍工讀生來台的這個誘因另外有一個議題就是今天行政院會剛剛討論通過了這個中階人力技術人力可以放在四個工作位置上這個是新增了幾項那我想這幾項如果細節我是不是請觀光署來說好 好 署長"},{"start":227.42,"end":248.788,"text":"就是說那個剛 剛公佈的這個中間技術人力呢是本國的勞工加薪兩千同步就可以新增一名那個中間技術人力那是外籍移工嗎 增加的部分是外籍移工 對然後他的總人數不能超過該呃就是旅宿總人數的十趴 十趴 對這是相關的辦法"},{"start":249.628,"end":270.785,"text":"好 這個問題我想是今天比較新的一個訊息後續的部分我還是請我們交通部觀光署這邊能夠積極的來關心這個議題另外最後一個問題就是我想請教一下我們觀光署曾經推動自助入住機的首次購入補助"},{"start":273.928,"end":283.066,"text":"那在宜蘭縣從109年到現在只有11家申請那這到底是什麼原因是因為不好用還是說有什麼其他的原因"},{"start":287.69,"end":308.21,"text":"這主要是因為我們有些條件房間數要20間以上然後如果是背包客 背包客棧模式的話床位必須60張以上他才就等於是床位數必須客房數的三倍他才能申請那是宜蘭縣的這些觀光旅宿業相對比較少符合這個條件的比較少嗎"},{"start":311.28,"end":320.551,"text":"我們會再繼續鼓勵他們看能不能下修這個我們限縮的條件讓這些觀光旅宿業他們要申請有機會好以上謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時2分）好，謝謝召委。有請林次長，還有陳玉秀署長。"],["主席：次長、署長請。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長午安、署長午安。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想先就教交通部，針對目前宜蘭相關的觀光量能，我一直期待宜蘭縣能夠成為我們全臺最大的一個觀光大縣，之前也就教過署長，針對宜蘭縣是否可以另外單獨成立一個風景區管理處，因為署長有大概說明了一下，我也不再追問這個問題。","在整個宜蘭縣的部分，我們是不是可以朝向觀光圈的模式進行？針對生態文化，還有在地產業的資源怎麼去串聯，希望能夠有效地把觀光產活化起來。近期宜蘭推動的北方漁鐵五漁村，我想請教後續相關的軟硬體設施，還有相關的觀光行銷配套活動等等，這個部分目前辦理的情況如何？"],["陳署長玉秀：這個是不是請我們林組長？因為軟硬體的部分他比較熟。"],["林組長秀霞：委員，關於宜蘭五漁村的推動，我們東北角管理處刻正積極地對於五漁村如何做行銷推廣有一個委辦案，今年年底會完成，完成之後我們可能就按照結論事項逐一實現。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，所以都有掌握，相關的期程都在進行當中？"],["林組長秀霞：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為宜蘭縣本身海岸線非常的長，一百多公里，北邊有頭城的漁鐵五漁村，南邊從蘇澳到南澳的部分，未來是不是也可以試著規劃相關的鐵道觀光路廊，也能夠活化我們宜蘭南邊的這些觀光景點？有沒有可能？"],["陳署長玉秀：可以，我們來研議。"],["陳委員俊宇：研議看看，在下個會期或是有機會的時候，我可能就這個議題再請教署長，看有沒有什麼進度。","另外，在觀光旅宿業方面，目前許多業者一直在反映缺工的問題，我想就這個問題請教交通部，對於我們全國的缺工問題，在觀光旅宿業有沒有什麼相對應的方式，可以來協助他們解決這個困難？"],["林次長國顯：剛剛有說明過，一個是我們擴大僑外生的留任，第二個是增加外籍工讀生來臺的誘因。另外有一個議題，就是今天行政院會剛剛討論通過，中階技術人力可以放在四個工作位置上，這部分新增了幾項，我想這幾項的細節是不是請觀光署來說明？"],["陳委員俊宇：好，署長。"],["陳署長玉秀：剛剛公布的中階技術人力，幫本國的勞工加薪2,000元，就可以同步新增一名中階技術人力……"],["陳委員俊宇：那是外籍移工？"],["陳署長玉秀：外籍移工。"],["陳委員俊宇：增加的部分是外籍移工？"],["陳署長玉秀：對，然後它的總人數不能超過該旅宿總人數的10%。"],["陳委員俊宇：10%？"],["陳署長玉秀：對，這是相關的辦法。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這個問題我想是今天比較新的訊息，後續的部分，還是請我們交通部觀光署這邊能夠積極地來關心這個議題。","另外，最後一個問題，就是我想請教一下，觀光署曾經推動自助入住機首次購入的補助，宜蘭縣從109年到現在只有11家申請，這到底是什麼原因？是因為不好用，還是說有什麼其他的原因？"],["陳署長玉秀：最主要是因為我們有些條件，房間數要20間以上，含20間……"],["陳委員俊宇：有規模的才可以？"],["陳署長玉秀：對，然後如果是背包客棧模式的話，床位必須60張以上，等於是床位數必須是客房數的3倍，它才能申請。"],["陳委員俊宇：是因為宜蘭縣的觀光旅宿業符合這個條件的比較少嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：相對比較少。我們會再繼續鼓勵他們。"],["陳委員俊宇：看能不能下修你們限縮的條件，讓這些觀光旅宿業有機會申請。"],["陳署長玉秀：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：以上謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來再請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164899","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164899","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00a75ce95242ee84c0d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c996ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:55:25 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謝謝 謝謝次長 次長你請回座署長在今年的8月6號我們一起就是在那個財政委員會就是召委我當初是財政委員會的召委我們一起召開丹納斯風災的觀光產業災後的一個重建的一個座談會那我主張就是說災後立即的一個修復還有產業的一個紓困的協助還有區域觀光的一個再造"},{"start":127.958,"end":130.641,"text":"當然就是說在這過程裡頭我們特別看到了針對台南的兩個點一個是北門鎮壓咖鎮壓咖這一個點你們快速的修復了因為基本上它是一個比較簡單的"},{"start":144.821,"end":173.651,"text":"然後將軍馬沙溝這一個這一個災後的一個那個重建基本上就是說看起來速度非常的緩慢尤其到那個10月17號才把鑑定的討論完成那在這個另外另外的那個馬沙溝的游泳池大樓他的檢疫修繕一直要到116年才開放所以就是說有一些是提前完工了"},{"start":174.011,"end":184.724,"text":"有一些是部分 那甚至到後面你看馬殺溝這個是要加速那是不是能加速這一個進度特別要跟那個婷婷署長你怎麼講"},{"start":187.523,"end":206.273,"text":"謝謝委員我記得上次有跟委員討論到這件事情就是說因為那個地方是蠻重要的一個地方那這次受損確實也是蠻嚴重的那我們是認為說有必要重新再定位一下他未來的招商他適合什麼樣的類型那你的計畫呢計畫出來了嗎"},{"start":208.974,"end":228.846,"text":"還沒好沒有關係顯然是沒有掉不到那我想這個是加速那在這裡再跟署長做一個探討就是產業上的一個紓困那我一直跟你們建議說比照那個武漢會員觀光紓困的報告裡頭我們是不是不要用貸款"},{"start":229.426,"end":253.283,"text":"而是用紓困金不要用貸款用紓困金這個其實會比較積極的就是說那個照顧到照顧到我們的產業產業的一個恢復你你這個貸款給他增加額度貸款還是要還啦那我們希望就是用一個紓困的模式是不是用紓困金的一個模式這個我們也請署長你再拿回去做一個探討"},{"start":254.524,"end":269.324,"text":"為什麼 修好了還是要熱起來 熱起來的話當然就是說我們希望你這些活動要多辦那多辦的話 臺南就是一個就是一個古廟之都 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謝謝趙偉 是不是恭請我們林次長林次長請次長 早好久不見 本來不想找你上來好久沒見了 謝謝委員前幾天總諮詢 前天我提到那個北竿機場施工的方式 辦辦公的方式"},{"start":26.499,"end":55.578,"text":"因為施工時間實在太長了痛苦期很高我左思右想五月夢回我想起來台中清泉崗那邊是辦辦公小港那邊也有用辦辦公的方式來做檢討鄉親的痛苦期民航局是您督導的我有跟你們委辦單位是台灣港務公司"},{"start":56.536,"end":81.486,"text":"港公署有跟他們講過了拜託你跟何局長講一下報告委員您知道他做的是跑道的延長跑道延長 海面的工程我們飛機在跑道起落的時候那個地方不能有障礙物所以這一塊我們盡量來跟公法調整看看看有沒有空間你們盡量做嘛因為那邊如果有任何"},{"start":82.586,"end":109.759,"text":"因為它延長了50公尺 等於是填土嘛填土為提供層等於的不止50 應該是500500 對不起啦那我覺得它的沉箱跟消波塊可以盡量在因為我們這次也非常感謝港務公司願意來協助港務公司願意來好不好 我們朝這個方向走好不好那你請回好不好 謝謝因為時間我要找陳處長"},{"start":114.349,"end":141.691,"text":"稍微請陳署長陳署長請陳署長聽說你身體微漾是 但是我還是很想見到大家報病 報病成功所以為了不加重你的病情所以今天我講話要小聲一點很像是這樣馬祖區域的觀光圈聽說你們觀光署最近有成立18個觀光圈"},{"start":143.271,"end":160.683,"text":"中間包含 其中包含了北中南台東還有雞馬棚三個離島對 本來是18個後來變成7個就是北中南東加三個離島能不能說明一下還是請我們旁邊的林組長"},{"start":162.77,"end":188.218,"text":"那個連組長來 好不好 不讓你講太多話了好不好 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明年是在嘉義在嘉義我是說台灣有大燈會我們金門馬祖澎湖應該有小燈會"},{"start":354.076,"end":370.907,"text":"你們會補助我們錢嗎 尤其過年我記得 元宵啊 有有有會嗎 已經送進來已經也審那個你們有打回縣政府去了嘛縣長有找我有請他修正一下說這個錢一定要有"},{"start":372.017,"end":399.645,"text":"會有嗎 有 已經OK了OK了沒有 合定了不過沒關係你不OK的話正好再審預算審預算要有就有沒有的話大家一起沒有我們很願意 連嘉義也不用了跟委員報告我們很願意協助地方政府找到地方的節慶活動那當時他們第一次提的版本就比較不符合我們的補助要點所以希望他們再修正一下大概是這個樣子 署長這樣"},{"start":401.038,"end":429.879,"text":"我拜託你們的事你們沒答應我就不要答應我答應我了就要去做我再跟你重複一遍好不好你們如果答應我了你要去做你就要去做你如果不去做我就會很生氣我生氣不是只生氣一兩個鐘頭我會生氣很久很久好不好我看到你生氣很久沒有看到我生氣很久好不好我覺得大家講話都要算話哪一件事我也不講了好不好我覺得大家講好的事情"},{"start":431.546,"end":443.452,"text":"國檢次長你在那邊笑什麼本席在質詢你可以笑好啦沒事啦齁他是我兄弟沒事齁那謝謝署長 謝謝趙偉我沒有耽誤你時間嘛齁我時間到趕快下台非常好 時間關掉非常好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時39分）謝謝召委，恭請我們林次長。"],["主席：林次長請。"],["陳委員雪生：次長早。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：好久不見，本來不想找你上來，但好久沒見了。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：前幾天總質詢，我提到北竿機場施工的方式應該研議半半工的方式，因為施工時間實在太長了，痛苦級數很高，我左思右想、午夜夢迴我想起來，臺中清泉崗也是半半工，小港那邊也有，用半半工的方式來做，減少鄉親的痛苦期。民航局是您督導的？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你們的委辦單位是臺灣港務公司，我跟港務公司講過了，在這裡就拜託次長跟何局長講一下。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，您知道做的是跑道的延長……"],["陳委員雪生：對，沒錯，跑道延長。"],["林次長國顯：所以是海面的工程。但飛機在跑道起落的時候，不能有障礙物，所以這一塊我們儘量用工法來調整看看有沒有空間。"],["陳委員雪生：你們儘量做，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：因為那邊如果有任何機具的話，跑道是不能用的！"],["陳委員雪生：因為延長了五十公尺，這等於是填土嘛！"],["林次長國顯：不只五十。"],["陳委員雪生：填土危及工程……"],["林次長國顯：不只五十，應該是五百。"],["陳委員雪生：是五百，對不起，五百啦。我覺得沈箱跟消波塊可以儘量……"],["林次長國顯：這次我們非常感謝港務公司願意來協助……"],["陳委員雪生：港務公司也有來？我們朝這個方向走，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["陳委員雪生：次長請回，謝謝。因為時間關係，我要請教陳署長，召委請陳署長。"],["主席：陳署長，請。"],["陳委員雪生：陳署長，聽說你身體微恙？"],["陳署長玉秀：是，但我還是很想見到大家。"],["陳委員雪生：今天抱病從公，為了不加重你的病情，所以今天我講話要小聲一點。有關馬祖區的觀光圈，聽說觀光署最近成立了十八個觀光圈，是不是？其中包含了北、中、南、臺東，還有金、馬、澎三個離島？"],["陳署長玉秀：對，本來是十八個，後來變成七個，就是北、中、南、東加三個離島。"],["陳委員雪生：七個？能不能說明一下？還是請林組長說明？"],["陳署長玉秀：好，林組長來。"],["陳委員雪生：不讓署長講太多話。"],["林組長秀霞：跟委員報告，我們原先推動了十八個觀光圈，是歷經了五年的努力，但後來署長認為十八個觀光圈對行銷來講會有窒礙，所以我們分為北、中、南、東四個觀光圈，再加上三個離島，成為七個觀光圈，這是為了推向國際，希望讓國民旅遊的行銷比較方便。這四個區域與三個離島，除了金門以外，由我們國民旅遊組親自操刀，其餘都是由十三個主責管理處上線。"],["陳委員雪生：林組長，你也感染腸病毒嗎？沒有吧？我看你戴口罩？"],["林組長秀霞：我怕被署長傳染。"],["陳委員雪生：怕被傳染？那就再找一個人上來傳染一下。去年馬祖很慘，馬祖旅宿叫苦連天，疫情過後，去年的觀光客不如預期，主要是這裡面有缺工的問題，因為旅宿洗床單、被單都要人力，所以這一方面如果有的話，請你們跟勞動部講一下，開放一些外籍勞工來協助我們的離島發展。","另外就是高登島。高登島當然是國防部的權責單位，但是我覺得金門的大膽、二膽都已經開放了，觀光署能不能行文給國防部？我覺得你們去講話會比較有力量。現在島上兵力不多，大概二、三十個人。二、三十個人守那個島有什麼意義？所以讓觀光客也上島嘛！現在可以專案申請，尤其針對老兵什麼的，可以特許上島。我去了很多次，因為高登島上的資源滿豐富的，所以署長能不能幫個忙，行文給國防部，好不好？"],["陳署長玉秀：好。其實我們過去曾經兩度行文，也拜訪軍方協調，但一直都沒有成果。我們會持續來協調國防部開放，也會拜託交通部，是不是協請交通部……"],["陳委員雪生：看你們努力的程度啊！你可以公文不停的去！"],["陳署長玉秀：我會努力的。"],["陳委員雪生：我想他們應該會協助，馬祖畢竟已經開放觀光了，是不是？那個島對上面的兵來講的話非常寂寞，二十幾個人，日子一久了，同性戀都有可能啦！二十幾個人而已。","另外就是燈會，今年臺灣要辦燈會嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：今年燈會在桃園。"],["陳委員雪生：每年都有嘛！"],["陳署長玉秀：對。"],["陳委員雪生：在哪裡？"],["陳署長玉秀：今年是在桃園，明年是在嘉義。"],["陳委員雪生：喔，在嘉義。我是說臺灣有大燈會，那我們金門、馬祖、澎湖應該要有小燈會嘛，你們會補助我們錢嗎？尤其過年的時候。"],["陳署長玉秀：我記得……"],["陳委員雪生：元宵啊！"],["陳署長玉秀：有、有、有。"],["陳委員雪生：會嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：已經送件了，也已經審議通過。"],["陳委員雪生：你們把文打回縣政府去了嘛，縣長有找我……"],["陳署長玉秀：有請他修正一下。"],["陳委員雪生：縣長有找我說這個錢一定要有，會有嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：有、已經OK了。"],["陳委員雪生：OK了沒有？"],["陳署長玉秀：核定了。"],["陳委員雪生：不過沒關係，你不OK的話，正好在審預算嘛，審預算要有就有，沒有的話大家一起沒有嘛，連嘉義也不用了啦！"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，我們很願意協助地方政府找到地方的節慶活動，當時他們第一次提的版本比較不符合我們的補助要點，所以希望他們再修正一下，大概是這個樣子。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，這樣啦，我拜託你們的事，你們沒法答應我的就不要答應我，但是答應我的就要去做，我再跟你重複一遍，好不好？你們如果答應我的就要去做……"],["陳署長玉秀：我收到了。"],["陳委員雪生：你如果不去做，我就會很生氣，我生氣不是只生氣一、兩個鐘頭，我會生氣很久很久，好不好？"],["陳署長玉秀：我看到了，我看到你生氣很久。"],["陳委員雪生：你有看到我生氣很久了喔？"],["陳署長玉秀：對。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？我覺得大家講話都要算話啦，哪一件事我也不講了，我覺得大家講好的事情……國顯次長，你在那邊笑什麼？本席在質詢，你可以笑嗎？好啦！沒事了！他是我兄弟，沒事。","謝謝署長，謝謝召委，我沒有耽誤你時間嘛！我時間到趕快下臺。"],["主席：非常好，時間管理非常好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員，謝謝署長。","接下來請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f008d8eeb252b57b837d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c97fcbc83bc95981385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:28:46 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工作算不算工作工作他不會算在我們的這個裡面工作算嗎請同事補充嗎因為統計這個資料的來"},{"start":90.468,"end":103.482,"text":"7號組如果是像參加像那個工作如果像賣死這種產業就是會展這些的部分啊算是在商務哈算是算算在我們的這個觀光旅客謝謝來統計資料理想請問移工算哪一種來台的部分算業務"},{"start":112.816,"end":134.837,"text":"算业务你看一下我们这个按照细分东南亚旅客在细分的话这个所谓来观光的比例以越南跟印尼因为我不确定你们现在讲的是算业务但是如果按照各东南亚国家来台湾的比例细分下去你看越南印尼菲律宾泰国马来西亚"},{"start":135.851,"end":165.342,"text":"越南印尼來觀光的比例大概佔了兩成三到兩成六其他的比例高達百分之六十五以上所以其他的比例是高於觀光的那我國我們就我們體感所見的確確近年來來自馬來西亞來自菲律賓來泰國的觀光客確實是比較多一點所以在你們的數據上看得出來也確實觀光比例比其他的比例來得高所以我再跟你確認一下你們那個其他比例是"},{"start":167.13,"end":185.778,"text":"只有什麼教育這種這種醫療不包含我們來我們來台灣的教育醫療的比例有這麼高嗎跟委員報告同仁剛剛表示是說會用到其他部分是他的選項如果是複選以上比如說他來的來這次的目的地是有兩項以上選擇就會納入其他"},{"start":187.079,"end":204.525,"text":"因為這個東西為什麼提這個問題就報案署長我現在在問的時候你們可能一時間也沒辦法回應我那就會產生一個問題是我們到底來台的觀光客來台灣這些人他到底來做什麼的如果連觀光署在統計數據上呈現出來之後你們都沒辦法很直接直觀的告訴我們"},{"start":205.205,"end":232.437,"text":"那對我來講或對觀光署來講會覺得那是不是現在的很多政策方向無法對症下藥所以我是第一個為什麼先放數據我想要就教說到底這些數據代表了什麼意思這個數據的下降跟上升觀光署要提出什麼對策比如說觀光是下降其他比例上升那就剛剛提到了再細分下去包含越南印尼的所謂其他比例上升的原因是什麼這個是你們有去研究過的嗎他的道理原因那不然你說你跟我說"},{"start":233.357,"end":259.069,"text":"其他的比例以越南印尼為例越南印尼的其他比例遠遠的超過觀光比例它的原因是什麼這確實跟我們現在目前的就是外籍人力來台台灣的部分一定是有正相關的好那為什麼要提這都很正常我是要說我們大家誠實面對數字而已那因為如果你把所謂的外籍移工的比例算進來台旅客的話"},{"start":259.969,"end":280.998,"text":"但會有一個問題正常來講當然不是每個人都這樣就是說正常以我所理解的外籍移工他們生活模範一年可能至少回去一次到兩次所以他在你們的統計數據裡面他每年至少就多一次的人次的統計所以在這個情況之下我們的數據會失真因為台灣現在85萬的外籍移工合法的還不管那些逃逸的"},{"start":281.798,"end":309.991,"text":"就光是合法的外移工就是85萬人那85萬人每一年來回一次就會計入你們的所謂的來台旅客的這個數量那當然看起來數據上我每年就多85萬人競爭家所以我在覺得在這個數字上我覺得未來你們在算旅客在統計整體數字的時候應該切開來處理真正的到底屬於觀光屬於業務我是來台灣觀光的比例到底多少我是來台灣工作的比例那是另外一件事情因為這些人"},{"start":310.911,"end":337.72,"text":"來台灣之後他可能他進入不是所謂觀光的消費市場他進入是其他的一般的民生消費他不是在做觀光的事業嗎署長好跟委員報告就是說我覺得他所有的數據都沒有絕對的精準但是有相對的精準相對的可參考性如果統計方式從以前到現在就是這個樣子所以他還是代表了一種趨勢跟一種現狀這是第一種第二種"},{"start":339.881,"end":357.043,"text":"其實縱使是移工啦移工他來台灣可能一待一待三個月像我們過去也推過Long stay對於觀光客來到台灣的Long stay這些他在台灣停留他還是會在台灣產生消費能力 經濟力所以這點上我認為他還是對台灣有幫助的"},{"start":357.423,"end":381.429,"text":"好沒有署長我沒有否認他對台灣經濟有幫助剛才提到但是來台的目的不一樣那跟你觀光署的業務我認為是不同的不同的這個不同的事情啦他來台灣的消費他來台灣可能要在台灣待個三年到三個月到一年等等不管他短遷長遷他進入的是整個台灣內區市場的消費那這個跟觀光本身未必是有直接相關這我覺得在"},{"start":382.069,"end":407.149,"text":"政策上面我們要吸引比如說最近推什麼吸引東南亞的旅客來台灣所以在比如說馬來西亞跟泰國我們可能做的就很成功在比例上看起來是這樣沒錯但是如果單看以東南亞為例那越南印尼它來的這個觀光比例相對就比較低嘛那比如說我們在西客的部分可能對越南印尼的這些旅客來沒有這麼高的吸引力所以我覺得這個數據上還是要把它講清楚那因為今天檢討的當然是說"},{"start":409.352,"end":429.799,"text":"我們立場當然要檢討說那我們要怎麼樣提升我們的數據當然你剛剛說過去這幾年都是這樣算的但是因為估計這幾年這樣算我們的觀光的這個數字或是我們觀光的這整個的業績就是沒有特別的提升所以我們才希望說在統計數據上能夠更明確讓我們更清楚的掌握到業務上的數據那再來還有一個問題就是說"},{"start":431.32,"end":445.837,"text":"不管是從剛剛的數據紀念你們官方提供的報告還是我們從其他商業網站上取得的數據就入境旅遊某種程度上它是整體是下降了它的一年的觀光人次在2019年是人數上的高峰那這兩年"},{"start":446.978,"end":458.425,"text":"來講還沒有回到那個時候的需求但是我國的旅宿業整體來講我們當然可能經濟特別還會怎麼樣旅宿業其實整體是增加疫情前只有1276812768家疫情後到現在為止到目前我們最新數據大約是15721家所以整體增加了23%那"},{"start":467.251,"end":475.544,"text":"總房間數增加1.5萬那這樣子會不會造成供需上面有些什麼問題還是說我們在品質的管控上觀光署有掌握到這條數據的呈現嗎"},{"start":478.101,"end":499.682,"text":"謝謝委員 委員提的這個問題確實我們也看見了最主要 增加最多的是民宿民宿大概就增加了大概20我記得20 30%的這個數字那這件事情我是認為說其實全球都在疫情的時候台灣的國旅是不錯的所以當時的需求是高的"},{"start":500.302,"end":524.166,"text":"那但是疫情結束之後相對的大家都瘋出國了所以這塊現在目前看起來需求是下降所以看起來會覺得說是功過於求主站起來最後一分鐘這個下一張剛剛這個署長在報告說說我們現在推廣觀光很多時候是跟旅行社來合作但是我們也是取了一個數據現階段從這個我們從2019年所謂疫情之後"},{"start":528.007,"end":555.502,"text":"整個亞太地區他去出國觀光的這個方式從以前傳統來講大量使用旅行社2019年的時候全亞太地區大概百分之五十過五成的人他會使用所謂線下的方式找旅行社然後只有兩成的人他是透過網路訂購等等那OTA就是所謂像booking.comagoda或是chipadvisor之類這些網站他那時候就兩成五疫情前是這樣但是這幾年不斷的提升到了今年"},{"start":556.807,"end":573.168,"text":"為止到去年大概提到三成五三成六左右的這個比例是使用所謂的平台訂購票物或訂購他的這個旅程網路訂購的比例也快到三成那反而是傳統旅行社的模式他下降的降到四成以下"},{"start":573.829,"end":592.225,"text":"所以未來我想我們在推廣國際觀光的時候觀光署在思考這問題的這個方向不應該只限於旅行社應該去想辦法去跟這些平台業者合作推一些優惠也好或推一些這個套裝行程也好而不是只找旅行社我不知道署長這個方向上你們會往這方向調整嗎"},{"start":593.161,"end":622.022,"text":"有的我們16個駐外單位原則上都是有跟OTA當地的OTA平台合作然後我們在國內的部分我們也在上上禮拜才找所有的OTA平台一起來商量大家如何一起來努力把不管是國際旅客送進來或者是國內的國旅這塊希望大家都可以一起來為國旅打拚謝謝我想就是要隨著科技跟商業市場的變化我們觀光署要努力的迎合這個市場好不好"},{"start":622.703,"end":622.723,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時28分）謝謝主席。主席，我們一樣請觀光署陳署長。"],["主席：請觀光署陳署長。"],["黃委員健豪：署長辛苦了，對於臺灣的觀光，我想你從業界來，感受應該非常深刻。從數據上來講，當然從今天的專案報告看起來，好像一切都是往好的方向走，但是如果我們細究一下交通部觀光署的觀光統計資料庫，所看到的是，來臺旅客有分為業務、觀光及其他等3種不同的目的，從今年跟去年的相比看起來，就以比例來講的話，今年來辦理業務的，就是來臺商務客等業務需求的比例是下降的，觀光的比例也是下降的，但其他的比例是上升的，到底其他是包含什麼？署長可以跟大家說明一下嗎？到底其他包含哪些東西？"],["陳署長玉秀：教學、醫療、探親。"],["黃委員健豪：教學、醫療、探親……"],["陳署長玉秀：還有像宗教的部分也會有。"],["黃委員健豪：工作算不算？"],["陳署長玉秀：工作？工作不會算在我們這個裡面……"],["黃委員健豪：工作算嗎？移工？"],["陳署長玉秀：可以請同事補充嗎？因為統計這個資料的是企劃組。"],["吳組長潔萍：那個工作如果像MICE這種產業，就是會展這些，算在商務，會算在我們的觀光旅客統計資料裡，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：請問移工算哪一種？來臺的部分。"],["吳組長潔萍：算業務。"],["黃委員健豪：算業務？"],["吳組長潔萍：是。"],["黃委員健豪：你看一下我們這個資料，如果東南亞旅客再細分的話，來觀光的比例，以越南跟印尼來說，因為我不確定，你們現在講的是算業務，但是如果按照各東南亞國家來臺灣的比例細分下去看，越南、印尼、菲律賓、泰國、馬來西亞這幾個國家，越南、印尼來觀光的比例大概占了兩成三到兩成六，其他的比例高達65%以上，所以其他的比例是高於觀光的。我國就我們體感所見，近年來來自馬來西亞、菲律賓、泰國的觀光客確實是比較多一點，在你們的數據上看得出來，也確實觀光的比例比其他的比例來得高，所以我再跟你確認一下，你們那個其他比例是只有教育、醫療這種不包含？來臺灣的教育、醫療比例有這麼高嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，同仁剛剛表示，會用到其他的部分，是指它的選項如果是複選以上，比如他這次來的目的地是有兩項以上，就會納入其他。"],["黃委員健豪：為什麼我要提這個問題？包含署長，我現在在問的時候，你們可能一時之間也沒辦法回應我，那就會產生一個問題，就是來臺的觀光客、來臺灣的這些人到底是來做什麼的？如果連觀光署的統計數據呈現出來後，你們都沒辦法很直接、直觀地告訴我們，對我來講，或對觀光署來講，會覺得是不是現在很多的政策無法對症下藥。","所以我第一個為什麼要先放數據？我想要就教到底這些數據代表什麼意思？這個數據的下降跟上升，觀光署要提出什麼對策？比如說觀光是下降，其他比例上升，就是剛剛提到的再細分下去，包含越南、印尼的其他比例上升原因是什麼？這個你們有去研究過的嗎？到底它的原因是什麼？不然署長跟我說，其他的比例以越南、印尼為例，越南、印尼的其他比例遠遠超過觀光的比例，它的原因是什麼？"],["陳署長玉秀：這確實跟目前外籍人力來到臺灣的部分一定是正相關。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我為什麼要提？這都很正常，我只是希望大家誠實面對數字而已，因為如果你把外籍移工的比例算進來臺旅客會有一個問題。正常來講，當然不是每個人都這樣，就是以我所理解正常的外籍移工生活模式，他一年可能至少回去一次到兩次，所以他在你們的統計數據裡面，每年至少就會多一次人次。在這個情況之下，我們的數據會失真，因為臺灣現在有85萬的合法外籍移工，還不包括那些逃逸的，光是合法的移工就是85萬人，那85萬人每年來回一次，就會計入你們來臺旅客的數量。當然，看起來數據上每年就會多85萬人，淨增加，所以我才覺得未來你們在統計旅客整體數字的時候應該切開來處理，到底真正屬於觀光署業務的來臺觀光比例是多少，而來臺灣工作的比例那是另外一件事情，因為這些人來臺灣之後，他可能進入的不是觀光的消費市場，他是進入其他一般的民生消費，不是在觀光事業。"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，我覺得所有的數據都沒有絕對的精準，但是有相對的精準，相對的可參考性。如果統計方式從以前到現在就是這個樣子，它還是代表了一種趨勢跟現狀，這是第一種。","第二種，縱使是移工，移工來臺灣可能一待會待三個月，像我們過去也推過long stay，對於觀光客來到臺灣的long stay，這些旅客在臺灣停留，他還是會在臺灣產生消費能力、經濟力，所以就這一點我認為他對臺灣還是有幫助的。"],["黃委員健豪：好，署長，我沒有否認他對臺灣的經濟有幫助。剛才提到，但是他來臺的目的不一樣，跟你觀光署的業務，我認為是不同的事情，他來臺灣的消費，他來臺灣可能要待個3個月到1年等等，不管是短簽還長簽，進入的是整個臺灣內需市場的消費，這個跟觀光本身未必直接相關，但我覺得在政策上面，我們要能夠吸引。比如說最近在推吸引東南亞的旅客來臺灣，像馬來西亞跟泰國，我們可能做得就很成功，在比例上看起來是這樣沒錯，但是如果單以東南亞為例，越南、印尼來觀光的比例相對就比較低，表示我們在吸客的部分，可能對越南、印尼的這些旅客沒有這麼高的吸引力，所以我覺得數據上還是要把它講清楚，因為今天我們立場上是要檢討，看要怎麼樣提升我們的數據，當然你說過去這幾年都是這樣算的，但是過去這幾年我們觀光的數字或是整個觀光的業績沒有特別提升啊！所以我們才希望在統計數據上能更明確，讓我們更清楚地掌握到業務上的數據。","再來，還有一個問題，不管是從剛剛的數據，今年你們官方提供的報告，還是我們從其他商業網站上取得的數據，入境旅遊在某種程度上整體是下降的。歷年的觀光人次在2019年是人次上的高峰，以這兩年來講，雖然還沒有回到那個時候的需求，但是整體來講我國的旅宿業……當然，可能經濟特別好還是怎麼樣的，其實旅宿業整體是增加，疫情前只有1萬2,768家，疫情後到現在為止，我們最新數據大約是1萬5,721家，所以整體增加了23%，總房間數增加1.5萬，這樣子會不會造成供需上面有些什麼問題？還是說我們在品質的管控上，觀光署有掌握到這樣數據的呈現嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：謝謝委員，委員提的這個問題確實我們也看見了，主要增加最多的是民宿，我記得民宿大概就增加了20%、30%這個數字。我是認為這件事情，其實全球都在疫情的時候，臺灣的國旅是不錯的，所以當時的需求是高的，但是疫情結束之後，相對的大家就瘋出國了，所以目前這塊看起來需求是下降，看起來會覺得是供過於求。"],["黃委員健豪：主席站起來了，最後1分鐘。","剛剛署長在報告說我們現在推廣觀光，很多時候是跟旅行社合作，但是我們也取得了一個數據，整個亞太地區出國觀光的方式，從以前傳統來講是大量使用旅行社；現階段、從2019年疫情之後，全亞太地區大概50%、過五成的人，他會使用所謂線下的方式找旅行社，只有兩成的人是透過網路訂購等等。那OTA就是像Booking.com、Agoda或是Tripadvisor之類這些網站，他們疫情前就到達兩成五，但是這幾年不斷在提升，到今年為止，去年跟今年大概已經提高到三成五、三成六左右的比例是使用所謂的平臺訂購票務或訂購旅程，網路訂購的比例快提高到三成，反而是傳統旅行社的模式，降到四成以下。所以未來我們在推廣國際觀光的時候，觀光署在思考這問題的方向，不應該只限於旅行社，應該想辦法去跟這些平臺業者合作，推一些優惠也好，或者推一些套裝行程也好，而不是只找旅行社。我不知道你們會往這方向上調整嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：有的，我們16個駐外單位，原則上都有跟當地的OTA平臺合作，然後在國內的部分，我們也在上上禮拜才找了所有的OTA平臺一起來商量，大家如何一起來努力，不管是國際旅客送進來，或者是國內國旅這一塊，希望大家都可以一起來為國旅打拼，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝署長，隨著科技跟商業市場的變化，我們觀光署要努力的迎合市場，好不好？"],["陳署長玉秀：好。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00149efb07cd472af5d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:19:24 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我們先請觀光署陳書長 陳書長請很好"},{"start":21.114,"end":48.03,"text":"蘇長好 次長您就坐著一起聽因為我在想說觀光其實將來應該是那個格局要不斷的提升科技經濟 觀光經濟其實未來都是台灣整體要走的道路那我先請教一下之前那個勞動部有已經決定要開放旅宿移工了嗎"},{"start":50.107,"end":51.395,"text":"是 今天新聞出了"},{"start":51.724,"end":80.56,"text":"今天新聞出來 其實我們也爭取很久啦那旅宿業其實也真的是救無綱啦因為其實它真的是蠻辛苦的所以一直就是包括飯店啦包括他們的旅遊住宿費用降不下來其實跟缺工也有很大的關聯所以這個其實是一個福音那我想請教一下現在旅宿的缺口大概有多少人"},{"start":81.3,"end":101.773,"text":"那未來是否能夠有效改善國旅高昂費用的狀況我們在前年調查的時候是六千六那今年度也正在重新調查所以之前的缺口有六千多人那我們現在預計進來有多少人"},{"start":110.464,"end":132.046,"text":"開放外籍的部分就是我們中階技術人力是每開放一個1比1的但是國內的員工要先提高最低薪資的比如說裡面員工薪資最低的就給他加2000加2000就可以多一個外籍移工進來所以有沒有總額的限制"},{"start":134.381,"end":148.641,"text":"那是每一家申請公司的10%每一家的10%就是每個旅宿業他員工的10%總員工的10%所以總數應該沒有管制是回到申請單位的限制"},{"start":149.845,"end":169.778,"text":"總數沒有限制我們希望說因為台灣的旅遊整體來講真的是旅宿業的費用真的是跟國外世界比較起來是偏高所以這個我希望公共署能夠重視整體來做一個規劃旅宿業之外就是包括這個"},{"start":171.089,"end":185.545,"text":"我也私底下跟署長談過很多次就是這個茂林國家風險區納入大清美地區這個部分我不知道部長跟次長知道了嗎次長"},{"start":188.372,"end":208.828,"text":"這個我有跟部長跟次長都有提過那這個部分因為都在進行中這個部分因為它如果是擴大範圍市社跟地方政府跟原民會還有原民部落同意的行政程序所以目前還在持續會診中我希望說那個署長跟次長就是能夠盡量加強"},{"start":210.089,"end":217.834,"text":"因為現在的旅遊現在已經慢慢的自由行很多了尤其年輕的這一代他到世界各國玩他都是自由行"},{"start":219.006,"end":242.9,"text":"那自由行事實上你應該提供他更多的不同的套裝的行程然後讓他去選擇所以你那個套裝行程要大當然他要選擇裡面幾個點他們年輕人自己會去做決定所以就說整個茂林國家化能區我是認為說我們都侷限在以茂林為主其實這個比較狹隘那他跟大清美地區都是一個生活圈"},{"start":243.86,"end":267.736,"text":"你可以看到寶萊溫泉 紫斑蝶還有客家文化包括我們本來的原住民文化茂林那邊都是再加上其實我們很多宗教生地也都在那一帶所以如果說把這個茂林國家混血區擴大範圍包括大旗美而且其實我還有一個願望其實我們經常到日本去幹嘛泡溫泉"},{"start":269.858,"end":280.583,"text":"那如果說台灣外國旅客到台灣來大部分他就是到北投泡溫泉事實上你到南部來你就來我茂林寶來泡溫泉"},{"start":281.912,"end":300.165,"text":"用這樣子一個大點因為人家出去就是吃喝玩樂嘛你有一個點吸引人家比如說我現在溫泉的整個格局需要提高以溫泉當作一個大的點然後其他的我們有很多套裝的再把它相加在一起"},{"start":301.045,"end":320.734,"text":"事實上這個來推動我整個茂林大旗美地區的國家風景區我覺得這個概念應該是對於茂林本身也好對於大旗美地區會有蠻大的幫助那這個部分署長應該都同意嘛對不對那目前不知道交通部的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":323.253,"end":341.732,"text":"目前因為還在這個應該是原民部落還在討論所以程序上如果這邊的特色夠我們是支持現在就是說把那個該有的協調跟協商溝通程序完成現在是跟原民部落他們意見還不一樣"},{"start":349.013,"end":372.125,"text":"我請我們景區組組長來補充 各位報告因為我們要成立國家風景區我們是要取得部落的會議同意我們才能夠進行去做這個劃設的動作所以必須要部落會議同意所以我們在持續情報管處跟園民會還有當地的部落持續溝通中OK好那你們盡量溝通因為其實這對部落一定更好啦"},{"start":372.765,"end":396.563,"text":"我們整個把人潮帶進來這部落應該會有蠻大的幫助所以我等一下會跟那個主委現在在我辦公室等一下我會再跟他談那這個部分就希望說我們這個公共署交通部一起能夠幫忙更積極的推動好 剩下一分鐘的時間我想我們再看一下現在整個"},{"start":398.771,"end":421.326,"text":"我們華山有區域觀光市集然後還有國際旅展這個我希望說將來有機會多到高雄這個我就不談太深下次再講那我要談的就是說其實你可以看到南台灣南高屏的區域經濟其實將來你們在做思考的時候剛剛我為什麼要提醒說大家盡量去整合思考"},{"start":422.346,"end":437.881,"text":"茂林要去整合跟我大西美事實上高雄跟南高坪事實上我們可以一起來做思考因為一個區域經濟大概500萬人口左右那我們這三個城市加起來正好500多萬所以這是一個相當"},{"start":439.611,"end":462.477,"text":"方便的思考我舉那個日本週郵券跟那個韓國的轉轉卡現在很多年輕人他們都這麼玩他就是我有一個好玩卡我有一個轉轉卡我就是可以選幾個店選幾個社區開五個集所以我簡單的報告就是說你可以看到日韓的好玩卡大阪週郵券兩天清一"},{"start":464.858,"end":489.478,"text":"首爾轉轉卡 兩天清五我們高雄好玩卡呢 三天清十 美國本來九一九北北機 它比較貴一點 兩天一千九那我現在提出個具體的整理就是說 是不是公關署我們規劃一個南台灣好玩卡 南高屏好玩卡就是把這個串連在一起你如果去澳洲玩那有的人不知道他的習慣 只要去樂區就去花錢你知道嗎"},{"start":490.158,"end":507.727,"text":"那你用這一個點事實上世界國外旅客他至少來我們會有幾個點讓他去做選擇也告訴他我這裡的特色是什麼所以我希望說我們公共署是不是著手來規劃一個類似北北基好玩卡我要規劃一個南高屏南台灣好玩卡這樣OK嗎"},{"start":509.028,"end":536.679,"text":"好 我們來輔導跟協助跟幾個地方政府一起來合作因為這個需要中央的資源挹注啦因為你看先是一般的 你說高雄市就不見了我們台南市的事情 我們屏東關的事情都不好意思啦當然大家互相合作需要由中央來號召 來統合 或者是來召集這樣子會把這個南高屏的區域經濟生活圈那包括旅遊經濟 觀光經濟這個可以一起來做思考"},{"start":537.239,"end":541.068,"text":"好所以這個也拜託公關公署可以在這一方面著手進行好OK謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":451,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時19分）謝謝主席，先請觀光署陳署長。"],["主席：請陳署長。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：署長好。次長您就坐著一起聽，我想觀光將來應該是格局要不斷的提升，因為科技經濟、觀光經濟其實都是臺灣未來整體要走的道路。我先請教一下，勞動部已經決定要開放旅宿移工了吧？"],["陳署長玉秀：是，今天新聞出來了。"],["許委員智傑：其實我們也爭取很久啦！旅宿業也真的是叫不到工，因為他真的是蠻辛苦的，所以包括飯店、包括他們的旅遊住宿費用一直降不下來，其實跟缺工也有很大的關聯，所以這個其實是一個福音。我想請教一下，現在旅宿的缺口大概有多少人？未來是否能夠有效改善國旅高昂費用的狀況？"],["陳署長玉秀：我們在前年調查的時候是6,600，今年度也正在重新調查。"],["許委員智傑：所以之前的缺口有六千多人？"],["陳署長玉秀：是，6,600。"],["許委員智傑：我們現在預計進來有多少人？"],["陳署長玉秀：開放外籍的部分，我們中階技術人力是每開放1個……是1比1的比例。"],["許委員智傑：對，1比1嘛！"],["陳署長玉秀：但是國內的員工要先加薪……"],["許委員智傑：提高最低薪資，比如說裡面員工薪資最低的就給他加2,000嘛！"],["陳署長玉秀：對。"],["許委員智傑：加2,000就可以多一個外籍移工進來。"],["陳署長玉秀：是。"],["許委員智傑：有沒有總額的限制？"],["陳署長玉秀：是每一家申請公司的10%，就是每個旅宿業其員工的10%，總員工的10%，所以總數應該沒有管制，是回到申請單位的限制。"],["許委員智傑：總數沒有限制？"],["陳署長玉秀：對。"],["許委員智傑：OK，因為臺灣的旅遊整體來講，旅宿業的費用跟國外世界比較起來真的是偏高，所以這個我希望觀光署能夠重視，就整體來規劃。除旅宿業之外，我也私底下跟署長談過很多次，就是茂林國家風景區納入大旗美地區，這個部分我不知道部長跟次長知道了嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：這個我跟部長跟次長都有提過，這個部分都在進行中，如果擴大範圍事涉跟地方政府、跟原民會還有原民部落同意的行政程序，所以目前還在持續彙整中。"],["許委員智傑：我希望署長跟次長能夠儘量加強，因為現在的旅遊，現在自由行已經很多了啦！尤其年輕的這一代，他到世界各國玩，他都是自由行，關於自由行，事實上你應該提供他更多不同的套裝行程，讓他去選擇，所以你的套裝行程要大，他可以選擇裡面幾個點，他們年輕人自己會去做決定。所以整個茂林國家風景區，我是認為我們都侷限在以茂林為主，其實這個比較狹隘，它跟大旗美地區都是一個生活圈，你可以看到寶來溫泉、紫斑蝶還有客家文化，包括我們本來的原住民文化，茂林那邊都是，再加上我們很多宗教聖地也都在那一帶，如果把茂林國家風景區擴大範圍包括大旗美……而且其實我還有一個願望，其實我們經常到日本去幹嘛？去泡溫泉，外國旅客到臺灣來大部分就是到北投泡溫泉，事實上，他到南部來，就來我茂林寶來泡溫泉，用這樣子一個大點，因為人家出去就是吃喝玩樂，你有一個點可以吸引人家。比如說現在溫泉的整個格局需要提高，以溫泉當作一個大的點，其他還有很多套裝的，再把它相加在一起，推動我整個茂林大旗美地區的國家風景區。我覺得這個概念對於茂林本身也好，對於大旗美地區也好，應該都會有蠻大的幫助。這個部分署長應該都同意，對不對？目前不知道交通部的意見怎麼樣？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，目前因為……原民部落應該是還在討論，所以程序上如果這邊的特色夠，我們是支持，現在就是把該有的協調跟協商溝通程序完成。"],["許委員智傑：現在是跟原民部落的意見還不一樣？"],["陳署長玉秀：我請景區組組長來補充。"],["許委員智傑：好。"],["林組長秀霞：跟委員報告，因為我們要成立國家風景區，要取得部落的會議同意才能夠進行劃設的動作，所以必須要部落會議同意，因此我們請茂管處跟原民會及當地部落持續溝通中。"],["許委員智傑：OK、好，你們儘量溝通，其實這對部落一定更好啦！我們整個把人潮帶進來，對部落應該會有蠻大的幫助，原民會主委現在在我辦公室，我等一下會再跟他談，這個部分希望觀光署、交通部一起能夠幫忙，更積極的推動。","剩下1分鐘的時間，我們再看一下，現在華山有區域觀光市集，然後還有國際旅展，我希望將來有機會多到高雄，這個我就不談太深，下次再講。我要談的是，其實你可以看到南臺灣、南高屏的區域經濟，將來你們在思考的時候……剛剛我為什麼要提醒大家要儘量去整合思考？茂林要去整合，跟大旗美，事實上高雄跟南高屏我們可以一起來思考，因為一個區域經濟大概500萬人口左右，而這3個城市加起來正好五百多萬，所以這是一個相當方便的思考。我以日本周遊券及韓國轉轉卡為例，現在很多年輕人都這麼玩，就是他有一個好玩卡、有一個轉轉卡就可以玩幾個景點、玩幾個城市、花多少錢。","我簡單的報告，你可以看到日韓的好玩卡，大阪周遊券兩天1,100元、首爾轉轉卡兩天1,500元，而我們高雄好玩卡三天1,400元，MeNGo本來990元，北北基比較貴一點，兩天1,900元。我現在提出個具體的建議，是不是觀光署規劃一個南臺灣好玩卡、南高屏好玩卡？就是把這些串聯在一起。如果去歐洲玩，有時候不知道他們的習慣，只是越區就被罰錢，這你知道嗎？你用這一個點，事實上世界的國外旅客來，至少我們會有幾個點讓他選擇，也告訴他這裡的特色是什麼。我希望觀光署是不是著手規劃一個類似北北基的好玩卡，規劃一個南高屏、南臺灣的好玩卡，這樣OK嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：好，我們來輔導跟協助，與幾個地方政府一起來合作。"],["許委員智傑：這個需要中央的資源挹注，因為跨縣市……假如高雄市長要去管臺南市的事情、管屏東縣的事情都不好意思啦！當然大家互相合作，需要由中央來號召、來統合或者是來召集，這樣子南高屏的區域經濟、生活圈，包括旅遊經濟、觀光經濟可以一起來思考，這個也拜託觀光署可以在這方面著手進行。"],["陳署長玉秀：可以，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。對啦！把餅做大，觀光就是要大家一起，謝謝。","接下來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00f92fbd48759d5944d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:08:52 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請主席邀請署長觀光署署長陳署長請"},{"start":16.257,"end":33.901,"text":"好 謝謝署長早那今天委員會針對就是900萬國際旅客達標的情形及旅宿業缺工情形振興改善措施來進行的專案報告那我們看到本來我們今年度我們設定的目標也是要"},{"start":34.461,"end":58.339,"text":"千萬人次嘛不久前我們又下修了到900萬900萬的這個國際旅客那以目前來說1到7月的這個來台的一個旅客數才480幾萬嘛那在剩下的這個應該不到半年的時間您有信心有把握可以達標嗎900萬人次"},{"start":62.193,"end":88.593,"text":"還要再努力一下下還要再努力那你有沒有去因為要努力的話你一定要有方向有策略而且要去檢討我們是不是有哪些問題要去解決我不曉得說我們署長這邊有沒有去相關的一個評估那我先再請教一下因為我們也是根據最近我們公布的113年來台旅客消費及動向的一個調查所以我們也可以看出來就是說"},{"start":89.654,"end":117.82,"text":"對於目前來台的這個國際旅客有一些改變就是在疫情前2019年我們看到來台的旅客以觀光為主的有高達75.7%那到去這個2024年就是113年來台觀光的人數就只有66%那這個數字就是可以看得出來就是說以觀光為目的的來台的這個人數減少了然後就是"},{"start":119.1,"end":141.32,"text":"這樣子的一個現象那當然就是我們要去檢討說為什麼就是來台的就是說要來觀光就是想要來玩的這個人會減少了是不是我們沒有很這個具有吸引力的一個觀光的吸引力或亮點吸引國外的旅客想要來"},{"start":142.521,"end":159.07,"text":"那另外就是我們也看到在這個調查裡面有顯示到說在2019年來台的旅客裡面第一次來的有佔了57%那到這個2024年第一次來台的就"},{"start":159.91,"end":172.652,"text":"衰退了10%就是只有46%所以就是說我們要怎樣去開拓這個新課員這個可能都是要去檢討跟有一些策略那是不是請署長可以回答"},{"start":174.09,"end":193.218,"text":"好 謝謝委員提問因為觀光是這樣它對大環境的敏感性特別的強我覺得這兩年台灣因為天災的關係確實也會造成外籍旅客對於台灣是否安全這件事情有產生一點疑慮我們看到的是這樣子"},{"start":194.338,"end":213.916,"text":"那當然是說開發新課員一定非常重要所以像我們明年度我們明年度大概針對去年跟今年我們在國旅跟國際旅客上面遇到的一些困難我們提出新的一些政策想法包括說像國際旅客我們希望說用重遊客"},{"start":215.057,"end":232.679,"text":"因為我們發現來過台灣的人來過台灣的旅客對台灣的喜好感是特別的強所以我們希望有機會邀請他回來等於是有老朋友帶新朋友再來回台灣這個是我們對新的客人希望用的一個策略是…"},{"start":234.621,"end":260.176,"text":"對 這個想法我本身是蠻肯定的因為我有同樣的一個這樣的問題就是剛好想問署長就是說對於再度來台的旅客我們有沒有相關的一個分析就是說在國際旅客來台灣的然後第二次第三次來台的這個比例有多高那對於未來我們的就是針對這個方向的空間還有多大因為我們比較這個日本"},{"start":263.178,"end":288.584,"text":"日本是我們台灣人很想去的一個地方而且可以說是一去再去有的甚至一年去好幾次可能兩次 三次 四次我有聽朋友說他甚至每個月都去一次日本為什麼日本會有那麼高的一個吸引力讓台灣人甚至是其他國家的人很想去署長有沒有去想過"},{"start":293.976,"end":318.375,"text":"乾淨舒服自在好買東西也是一種然後第二個是我覺得日本持續也都有推一些新的項目那這點也都是我們應該要再多更多一點的學習是好那其實在署長上任第一次的質詢我就有提到因為署長是來自業界曾經就是擔任過那個松菸這個"},{"start":322.479,"end":335.554,"text":"園區的執行長所以當時你也成功的就是帶領這個團隊推動這個場域的轉型然後吸引了超過千萬人次的一個觀光旅客所以我想就是說我們也是希望借重你這樣子的一個"},{"start":337.396,"end":356.045,"text":"經營的一個能力所以在你目前到任應該四個月了那在這四個月我不曉得說有新的做法嗎就是說到任之後到現在就是說想要翻轉台灣的觀光你有新的作為了嗎新的策略了嗎"},{"start":357.226,"end":379.481,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會其實我覺得要去翻轉台灣的觀光當然也不是一速可乘當然第一個還是必須先了解問題在哪裡其實台灣的觀光我覺得政策相關的都有只是我們的系制度可能做得不到位那些都是需要花時間去調整溝通的我記得我也跟委員溝通過"},{"start":380.882,"end":405.582,"text":"大家覺得台灣的景點或台灣的節慶沒特色那這件事情我們上次也講說我們希望每個地方找到自己的特色所以對於像相關的補助計畫我們也希望加強地方特色的節慶我們再給予多一點的補助這樣子讓每個地方都找到自己的特色那我也不太支持齊頭市平等的補助"},{"start":406.683,"end":431.76,"text":"因為這樣的狀況大家都不會好所以還是希望說然後像我們的區域觀光就是我們觀光圈的區域觀光接下來也要採取的是競爭型的計畫是希望由地方主動來爭取他們到底想要怎麼做因為我覺得區域的特色必須由區域自己形塑那當然我們會組一些輔導委員會來協助大家做一些的輔導跟溝通"},{"start":433.561,"end":449.992,"text":"那這個是我們一步一步先往前這樣做因為它跟跨區域的部分是有關係的那在我們現在手上的政策我們就希望說朝這個方向來優化以上 先這樣說我想就是打造區域觀光新品牌也是"},{"start":450.572,"end":466.853,"text":"行政院的一個施政的一個重點所以我覺得說就像剛剛署長所回答的事實上也就是說要建立一個觀光的一個品牌是非常一個重要的所以我覺得說我們台灣的觀光不應該還是只是停留在說"},{"start":468.074,"end":495.889,"text":"這個日月潭阿里山就是這些舊有的這樣子的一個焦點我想台灣每一個地方都有它的一個特色從北到南那剛剛署長有提到說因為今年這個天災比較多那因為天災就是有一些區域性那其他的地方其實也是還有很多有待努力開發的一個旅遊的景點那以彰化來說就是一個"},{"start":496.869,"end":515.322,"text":"一個很有潛力的一個地方那我覺得說比較可惜就是說他的這個品牌還有待去再強化那我們也希望說在這個部分我們觀光署希望能夠給予大力的一個協助那另外就是說對於我們觀光署在行銷台灣的這個"},{"start":518.224,"end":539.324,"text":"觀光的資源景點我們看到說在中部地區他有提到說中部地區包括苗栗縣台中市彰化縣南投縣及雲林縣等五個縣市那就我們觀光署的這個網站的內容的描述裡面有提到每一個縣市的"},{"start":539.944,"end":552.498,"text":"一個觀光的特色包括說南投的泰雅度假村 九族文化村雲林的劍湖山世界等等這一些都點到了唯獨就沒有講到彰化縣署長請問您怎麼看"},{"start":556.435,"end":581.568,"text":"這個我們來改進那我在這邊想恭喜我們蘇維委員的彰化上個月我們的台灣設計展在彰化非常的成功那次的展覽基本上應該把我們彰化的不管是產業特色或人文特色都做了一個很不錯的梳理那這些都會成為我們未來在觀光宣傳裡面重要的養分跟題材"},{"start":582.399,"end":610.578,"text":"是因為以這個我們的觀光的統計來看我們彰化縣的鹿港老街在這個國旅的景點裡面就是以這個1730萬人次可以說是第一名那八卦山國家風景區也以這個623萬人次拿下國家級的風景區第一名的一個殊榮所以彰化縣不是沒有一個具吸引力的這個景點可是在我們的網站裡面都沒有提到我覺得這個應該是很"},{"start":612.44,"end":613.422,"text":"很不應該的地方"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時8分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請觀光署署長。"],["主席：來，陳署長請。"],["陳委員素月：署長早。今天委員會針對「900萬國際旅客達標的情形及旅宿業缺工情形振興改善措施」來進行專案報告，我們看到本來我們今年度設定的目標也是要千萬人次，不久前我們又下修了到900萬的國際旅客，以目前來說，1月到7月來臺的旅客數才四百八十幾萬，剩下應該不到半年的時間，您有信心、有把握可以達標900萬人次嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：還要再努力一下下。"],["陳委員素月：還要再努力？"],["陳署長玉秀：對。"],["陳委員素月：要努力的話，你一定要有方向、有策略，而且要去檢討是不是有哪些問題要解決，我不曉得署長有沒有相關的評估？我再請教一下，根據最近公布的113年來臺旅客消費及動向調查，可以看出目前來臺的國際旅客有一些改變，在疫情前2019年我們看到來臺旅客以觀光為主的高達75.7%，到了2024年，來臺觀光的人數就只有66%，從這個數字可以看出來以觀光為目的的來臺人數減少了。對於這樣子的現象，當然我們要檢討為什麼來臺觀光、想要來玩的人減少了？是不是我們沒有很具有吸引力的觀光亮點可以吸引國外的旅客想要來？","另外，我們看到這項調查也顯示在2019年來臺的旅客裡面，第一次來的占了57%，到2024年第一次來臺的就衰退了10%，變成只有46%，所以要怎麼樣去開拓新客源可能也都要去檢討並提出一些策略，是不是可以請署長回答？"],["陳署長玉秀：謝謝委員提問，因為觀光對大環境的敏感性特別強，我覺得這兩年臺灣因為天災的關係，確實也會造成外籍旅客對於臺灣是否安全這件事情產生一點疑慮，我們看到的是這樣子。當然開發新客源一定非常重要，所以明年度會針對去年和今年我們在國際旅客上面遇到的困難提出一些新的政策想法，包含針對國際旅客，我們希望能有重遊客，因為我們發現來過臺灣的旅客對臺灣的喜好感特別強，所以我們希望有機會邀請他回來，等於是有老朋友帶新朋友再回來臺灣，這是我們對新的客人希望用的一個策略。"],["陳委員素月：這個想法本席是蠻肯定的，我剛好有同樣的問題想問署長，就是對於再度來臺的旅客，我們有沒有相關的分析？究竟國際旅客第二次、第三次來臺的比例有多高？未來針對這個方向的空間還有多大？與日本比較的話，日本是臺灣人很想去的地方，而且是一去再去，有人甚至一年去好幾次，可能兩次、三次、四次，我聽朋友說他甚至每個月都去一次日本，為什麼日本會有那麼高的吸引力，讓臺灣人或是其他國家的人很想去？這個問題署長有沒有想過？"],["陳署長玉秀：乾淨、舒服、自在，還有好買東西；第二個是我覺得日本持續都有推一些新的項目，這點也是我們應該要再更多一點的學習。"],["陳委員素月：其實在署長上任第一次的質詢我就有提到，因為署長來自業界，曾經擔任過松菸園區的執行長，當時你也成功帶領團隊推動場域的轉型，吸引了超過千萬人次的觀光旅客，我們也希望借重你這樣子的經營能力。你目前到任已經四個月了，在這四個月當中，不曉得你有新的作法嗎？就是說從到任之後到現在，對於翻轉臺灣的觀光，你有新的作為和新的策略了嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：謝謝委員給我機會，要翻轉臺灣的觀光當然也不是一蹴可成，第一個還是必須先了解問題在哪裡，其實我覺得臺灣的觀光相關政策都有，只是我們的細緻度可能做得不到位，那些都是需要花時間去調整和溝通的。我記得我也跟委員溝通過，大家覺得臺灣的景點或臺灣的節慶沒特色，這件事情我們上次也說我們希望每個地方找到自己的特色，所以對於相關的補助計畫，我們也希望加強地方特色的節慶，我們再給予多一點的補助，這樣子讓每個地方都找到自己的特色，我也不太支持齊頭式平等的補助，因為這樣的狀況大家都不會好。然後像我們的區域觀光，也就是觀光圈的區域觀光，接下來要採取的是競爭型的計畫，希望由地方主動爭取，看看他們到底想要怎麼做，因為我覺得區域的特色必須由區域自己形塑，當然我們會組一些輔導委員會來協助大家做一些輔導跟溝通，我們一步一步先往前這樣做，因為它跟跨區域的部分是有關係的，就我們現在手上的政策，我們希望朝這個方向來優化，以上先這樣說明。"],["陳委員素月：打造區域觀光新品牌也是行政院施政的重點，就像剛剛署長所回答的，事實上要建立觀光的品牌是非常重要的，我覺得臺灣的觀光不應該還只是停留在日月潭、阿里山這些舊有的焦點，臺灣從北到南每一個地方都有它的特色。剛剛署長提到今年天災比較多，因為天災有一些區域性，其實其他地方還有很多有待努力開發的旅遊景點，以彰化來說就是一個很有潛力的地方，比較可惜的是它的品牌還有待強化，我們也希望觀光署針對這個部分能夠給予大力協助。另外，對於觀光署行銷臺灣的觀光資源及景點，我們看到中部地區包括苗栗縣、臺中市、彰化縣、南投縣及雲林縣等五個縣市，就觀光署網站內容的描述，有提到每一個縣市的觀光特色，包括南投泰雅渡假村、九族文化村，雲林的劍湖山世界等等，這一些都點到了，唯獨就是沒有講到彰化縣。署長，請問您怎麼看？"],["陳署長玉秀：這個我們來改進，我在這邊也想恭喜素月委員的彰化，上個月我們的臺灣設計展在彰化辦得非常成功，那次的展覽，基本上把彰化的產業特色或人文特色都做了很不錯的梳理，這些都會成為我們未來在觀光宣傳裡面重要的養分與題材。"],["陳委員素月：以觀光的統計來看，彰化縣鹿港老街在國旅的景點裡面有1,730萬人次，可以說是第一名，八卦山國家風景區也以623萬人次拿下國家級風景區第一名的殊榮，所以彰化縣不是沒有具吸引力的景點，可是在你們的網站裡面都沒有提到，我覺得這是很不應該的地方。"],["陳署長玉秀：我們改進。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請許智傑委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00377a5b10f3c431c0d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9b606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:59:03 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邀請我們林長次還有觀光署我們的黃國淑長上請 副市長請"},{"start":13.047,"end":32.368,"text":"市長 副市長早我想我們交通部在2021年提出的臺灣觀光邁向2025年的一個方案那今年剛好已經屆滿5年那當然目前看起來有一些KPI去年有達標但是有些距離目標還很遠那不曉得我們交通部針對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":34.53,"end":59.703,"text":"不管是這個國旅也好 還有國外的旅客這個來台的觀光人次也好我想剛剛也許多的委員都在提到這個部分那原本我們國旅的部分這個2025年旅遊的人次是看1100萬消費金額是4100億但是距離還有點很遠不曉得我們交通部跟我們觀光署針對這個未來努力的目標是不是有在做調整跟修正"},{"start":63.256,"end":84.096,"text":"報告委員我們後五年的目標是希望以提升值我想因為我們台灣的關係它承載量是有一定的上限如果在目前很多在討論所謂的過度觀光的部分所以我們現階段的部分是希望提供來來的部分可以讓我們的當地這些旅遊所以我們有奠定未來五年的目標了嗎"},{"start":85.298,"end":93.577,"text":"我們希望就是把那個2030的部分有一個兆元產業包括就是國旅跟國際旅客的部分"},{"start":94.605,"end":120.968,"text":"好 我想現在不是只有交通部跟觀光署的官員頭痛我們第一線的觀光的從業人員大家壓力也很大尤其我們這個屏東我們過去很多的年輕人懷抱的理想到屏東這個投入這個觀光產業有的甚至去開民宿現在都很慘了這個客源也少然後營運上貸款的壓力也很大那我想不管是"},{"start":122.53,"end":151.489,"text":"從這個整體的經濟名也好我們當然我們先知道臺灣的經濟這個發展非常的好但是我們期待這樣觀光產業一個帶段能夠讓更多的這個觀光的元素能夠增加那所以觀光署目前為了吸引國際觀光客也規劃了很多的方案包含這個消費金的抽獎交通票券來臺機票甚至一些套裝行程的優惠那不曉得觀光署有沒有針對這部分有沒有明定我們大概的這個行銷策略的效應在哪裡"},{"start":153.91,"end":175.735,"text":"那個部分是我們會有兩個一個是試用全球一個車的一個各市場的部分會依據各市場的旅客需求去做一個變化我想各個市場有滾動檢討嗎對那因為有些行銷的部分我們可能要去做市場的試驗如果是效益好我們再加嘛效益不好的部分我們可能會來檢討我們的做法再做一個滾動式的一個調整"},{"start":176.772,"end":192.493,"text":"好 那不過我還是要提醒就是有一個我們因為觀光署每年會針對國內一些這個國際旅客來臺灣熱門的景點的一個排行那比如說像是目前我們看到的臺北101西門町甚至九份 我想"},{"start":193.474,"end":213.388,"text":"根據這個目前的這個觀光 前瞻觀光政策研究室的統計 六都的旅遊人士大為增加 因為六都的財源比較好 他們比較有辦活動 演唱會這個觀光的這個活動也很多所以佔比已經高達72.5%非六都只吸引到27.5%的國際旅客"},{"start":215.649,"end":224.703,"text":"那我想這個之前我們的署長也提到說要用三年的計畫來推動北回之巔振興南部的觀光客我想這個目前不曉得這個計畫的進度進度到哪裡"},{"start":228.673,"end":251.511,"text":"報委員 相關計畫部分我們目前提到願帶願核定我們也相關準備工作已經同時展開這部分有一個政策是希望就是說不要讓遊客集中在大台北都要分流可以做一個分流有關的部分就是可能相關的南部這些景點優化跟行程的串聯我想我們後續展開的部分會持續去推動"},{"start":253.004,"end":279.437,"text":"不過這個這個次長跟副處長我還是要提醒我過去很多次也在委員會甚至院會提到像我們屏東來講我們過去最吃虧就是交通問題我這個次長以前在民調局知道嗎我們現在沒有飛機啦高鐵也沒有到屏東啦鐵路也沒有雙軌化我們怎麼辦對我們來講國外旅客到坐飛機到桃園他要搭高鐵來就一天而已"},{"start":281.011,"end":301.422,"text":"對我們來講真的是在旅遊規劃上面很吃虧所耗費的成本也很高未來我想針對這樣一個狀況我們還是要期待交通部優先處理我們的交通問題那甚至我想我們現在許多的部會都在推觀光包含像屏東來講我們有原民有客家有農村有漁村也有市區"},{"start":302.242,"end":319.105,"text":"那我們許多的部會會針對不一樣的這個他們各自的業務當然去發展但是我們很擔心一方面疊床加屋一方面沒有整合1加1大於2的力道那這部分觀光署身為一個觀光主管機關是不是有期待做這樣一個部會的一個整合"},{"start":322.197,"end":337.275,"text":"報告委員我先說明一下目前在行政院有一個觀光諮詢委員會議這個會議的主要目的就是把各個部會跟觀光有關的都整合在一起上一次會議前幾個禮拜才剛開過"},{"start":338.776,"end":358.75,"text":"主席跟我們都要求譬如說相關的部分像原民會文化部這個國家公園署等等這些單位他如果有大型活動或是有一些計畫型的活動應該要提前兩次會議前要把他的資訊放到我們的平台上讓觀光署做統一的宣傳包含國內跟國外"},{"start":359.41,"end":375.238,"text":"在平台上來處理 這是你們在會議上你們比較官方的一個處理方式但就我們地方來看我倒覺得很可惜我們一直要強調中央跟地方縣市政府合作的一個機制像以肯尼來講觀光署也可以管得到"},{"start":376.463,"end":394.241,"text":"國家公益署可以管得到但是國家公益署他只顧生態他不一定重視觀光那觀光署我也跟署長提過了觀光署是要重觀光所以我們期待我們的部會應該優先去做整併然後再結合屏東縣政府我們怎麼樣把一個活動能夠把地方"},{"start":394.781,"end":417.227,"text":"包含我們一些社團也好把一些這個我們的民宿業者或是旅館業者也好應該整合起來讓我們的所謂的一個面向可以點線面把它拉大我不曉得次長有沒有考慮到這些的問題今天觀光署的專案報告裡面有特別講到一個重點以往是18個觀光圈那我們這一次是整合成北中南東加3個離島"},{"start":418.607,"end":440.945,"text":"那所以他最主要的目的就是說 我剛剛報告把中央部會的整合完以後 再跟地方的做整合把他的特色跟亮點 還有區域性的疫情市長這個講很久了 現在還在講整合我們會不會太慢這個是一直在做的工作啦 那我剛剛報告研訓院裡面有一個是這個促進產業發展他裡面大概就要協助這些把他的特色找出來"},{"start":441.585,"end":456.403,"text":"我 我是一直期待啦 這個交通部跟觀光署不能只是固步自封啦 我真的覺得我也跟署長提過了 我約個時間讓他去聽一聽我們年輕觀光業者的一些心聲他們在觀光這個行業裡面"},{"start":457.364,"end":484.251,"text":"招諷的一個困境不只是有觀光署的問題包含像國家公園署裡面的問題也很多我想這個應該要怎麼樣讓這些年輕人他們這麼有勇氣願意投入這個行業但是我們怎麼樣去協助他們讓他們能夠在這條路上行得更順遂行得更好我想這是他們有很多的創意跟想法讓他們能夠發揮更好的創意吸引更多的國內遊客來參觀那我想另外最後一個那個次長"},{"start":485.351,"end":501.38,"text":"我一直也提到我們恆春這個五里亭機場的問題那當然我們也感謝民航局針對這個最近辦那個一個陸海空的一個3D的嘉年華活動吸引了非常多的人潮但是我們不是只是要辦機場活化的一個活動"},{"start":501.98,"end":519.417,"text":"我們還是期待這個能夠飛機能夠包機能夠重新從桃園也好松山也好能夠飛到我們的武里亭這個對國外的旅客也好甚至北部的旅客也好節省非常多的時間我想這也是讓杭州武里亭機場可以火化很重要的一個契機"},{"start":521.258,"end":536.066,"text":"這部分你能不能願意協助這個部分這個我們觀光署會來處理我們現在有包機補助方案那以往是國際包機這次好像也有談到國內包機的部分我想國內 國際已經講很久了都沒起來 國內是不是可以現在啟動應該是華信航空吧"},{"start":542.549,"end":566.646,"text":"華信航空我們有找他來那最近應該會去拜訪周縣長包含署長跟民安局長我們都會去拜訪周縣長跟他討論細節市長不要只是拜訪啦真的要落實把這個案子能夠把它促成我們希望能夠有更多這個北部的遊客能夠藉由這樣一個便捷的一個這個包機的一個業務能夠很快速到達我們的恆春目前就是請華信積極來處理包機"},{"start":568.668,"end":571.558,"text":"好 這部分期待趕快能夠有一個新的進步 是 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時59分）謝謝主席，有請林常次還有觀光署黃副署長。"],["主席：次長請、副署長請。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["黃副署長勢芳：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：次長早、副署長早。交通部在2021年提出的臺灣觀光邁向2025年的方案，今年剛好已經屆滿五年，目前看起來有些KPI在去年有達標，但是有些距離目標還很遠。不曉得交通部針對這樣的狀況，不管是國旅也好，還有國外旅客、來臺觀光人士也好，我想剛剛許多委員也都提到這個部分。原本國旅的部分在2025年旅遊的人次是上看1,100萬，消費金額是4,100億，但是距離還有點很遠，不曉得我們交通部跟觀光署針對未來努力的目標是不是有在調整跟修正？"],["林次長國顯：我們先請觀光署。"],["黃副署長勢芳：報告委員，我們後五年的目標是希望提升「質」，因為我們臺灣的關係，承載量有一定的上限，目前很多在討論所謂的過度觀光，所以我們現階段的部分是希望提供來臺的遊客可以讓我們當地這些旅遊……"],["徐委員富癸：所以我們有訂定未來五年的目標了嗎？"],["黃副署長勢芳：我們希望在2030年有一個兆元產業，包括國旅跟國際旅客的部分。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我想現在不是只有交通部跟觀光署的官員頭痛，我們第一線觀光的從業人員，大家壓力也很大啦，尤其我們屏東過去很多的年輕人懷抱著理想到屏東投入觀光產業，有的甚至去開民宿，現在都很慘，客源也少，營運上貸款的壓力也很大，不管是從整體的經濟面也好，當然我們現在知道臺灣的經濟發展非常好，但是我們期待觀光產業的帶動能夠讓更多觀光的元素增加，所以觀光署目前為了吸引國際觀光客，也規劃了很多的方案，包含消費金的抽獎、交通票券、來臺機票，甚至一些套裝行程的優惠，不曉得觀光署針對這部分，有沒有明訂大概的行銷策略效應在哪裡？"],["黃副署長勢芳：我們會有兩種，一個是適用全球的策略，一個是各市場的部分，依據各市場的旅客需求去變化，我想各個市場……"],["徐委員富癸：有滾動檢討嗎？"],["黃副署長勢芳：對，因為有些行銷的部分，我們可能要去做市場試驗，如果效益好，我們再加碼，效益不好的部分，可能會檢討我們的做法，再做一個滾動式的調整。"],["徐委員富癸：好，不過我還是要提醒，觀光署每年會針對國內一些國際旅客來臺灣的熱門景點排行，比如像目前我們看到的臺北101、西門町，甚至九份。根據目前前瞻觀光政策研究室的統計，六都的旅遊人次大為增加，因為六都的財源比較好，他們比較常辦活動、演唱會，觀光活動也很多，所以占比已經高達72.5%，非六都只吸引到27.5%的國際旅客。之前我們署長也提到要用三年的計畫來推動「北回之巔」振興南部的觀光客，目前不曉得這個計畫的進度到哪裡？"],["黃副署長勢芳：報告委員，相關計畫的部分，我們目前提到院，待院核定，我們的準備工作也同時展開了，這部分有個政策是希望不要讓遊客集中在大臺北都會區……"],["徐委員富癸：要分流嘛！"],["黃副署長勢芳：對，可以做一個分流，有關的部分就是南部相關這些景點的優化跟行程的串聯，我們後續展開的部分會持續去推動。"],["徐委員富癸：次長跟副署長，我還是要提醒，我過去很多次也在委員會，甚至在院會提到，像以屏東來講，我們過去最吃虧就是交通問題，次長以前在民航局也知道，我們現在沒有飛機，高鐵也沒有到屏東，鐵路也沒有雙軌化，我們怎麼辦？對我們來講，國外旅客坐飛機到桃園，他要搭高鐵來就一天而已，對我們來講，真的是在旅遊規劃上面很吃虧，所耗費的成本也很高。未來針對這樣一個狀況，還是要期待交通部優先處理我們的交通問題，甚至現在許多的部會都在推觀光，包含像屏東來講，我們有原民、有客家、有農村、有漁村、也有市區，許多部會會針對他們各自不一樣的業務去發展，但是我們很擔心，一方面疊床架屋，一方面沒有整合一加一大於二的力道，這個部分觀光署身為一個觀光主管機關，是不是有期待做部會的整合？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我先說明一下，目前在行政院有一個觀光諮詢委員會議，這個會議的主要目的就是把各個部會跟觀光有關的都整合在一起，上一次會議前幾個禮拜才剛開過，主席跟我們都要求譬如相關的部分像原民會、文化部、國家公園署等等，這些單位如果有大型活動或是有一些計畫型的活動，應該要提前在兩次會議前把他的資訊放到我們的平台上，讓觀光署做統一的宣傳，包含國內跟國外，放在平台上來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，這是你們在會議上比較官方的處理方式，但就我們地方來看，我倒覺得很可惜，我們一直要強調中央跟地方縣市政府合作的機制。像以墾丁來講，觀光署也可以管得到，國家公園署也可以管得到，但是國家公園署只顧生態，不一定重視觀光。至於觀光署，我也跟署長提過了，觀光署是要重觀光，所以我們期待我們的部會應該優先去整併，再結合屏東縣政府，我們怎麼樣把一個活動能夠和地方，包含一些社團也好，把一些我們的民宿業者或是旅館業者也好，應該整合起來，讓所謂的一個面向可以從點線面把它拉大。我不曉得次長有沒有考慮到這些問題？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，今天觀光署的專案報告裡面有特別講到一個重點，以往是18個觀光圈，我們這次是整合成北、中、南、東加3個離島，最主要的目的就是說，我剛剛報告，把中央部會整合完以後再跟地方的整合，把它的特色跟亮點還有區域性的情形……"],["徐委員富癸：次長，這已經講很久了，現在還在講整合會不會太慢？"],["林次長國顯：這個是一直在做的工作，我剛剛報告，研訓院裡面有一個是促進產業發展，裡面大概就要協助這些地區把它的特色找出來。"],["徐委員富癸：我是一直期待交通部跟觀光署不能只是故步自封，我真的覺得……我也跟署長提過了，我會約個時間讓他去聽一聽我們年輕觀光業者的一些心聲，他們在觀光這個行業裡面遭逢的困境，不只是有觀光署的問題，包含像國家公園署裡面的問題也很多。我想這個應該要了解怎麼樣讓這些年輕人……他們這麼有勇氣願意投入這個行業，但是我們怎麼樣去協助他們，讓他們能夠在這條路上行得更順遂、行得更好，他們有很多的創意跟想法，讓他們能夠發揮更好的創意吸引更多的國內外遊客來參觀。","另外，最後一個，次長，我也一直提到我們恆春五里亭機場的問題，當然我們也感謝民航局最近辦一個陸海空3D嘉年華活動，吸引了非常多的人潮，但是我們不只是要辦機場活化，我們還是期待飛機能夠包機，重新從桃園也好、松山也好，能夠飛到我們的五里亭，對國外的旅客也好，甚至北部的旅客也好，節省非常多的時間，這個也是讓恆春五里亭機場活化很重要的一個契機。次長，你能不能願意協助這個部分？"],["林次長國顯：我們觀光署會來處理，我們現在有包機補助方案，以往是國際包機，這次好像也有談到國內包機的部分，國內包機還在研議中……"],["徐委員富癸：國際已經講很久了，都起不來……國內是不是可以現在啟動？"],["林次長國顯：國內包機上次應該是跟華信航空，我們有找華信航空來，最近應該會去拜訪周縣長，包含署長跟民航局長，我們都會去拜訪周縣長跟他討論細節。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，不要只是拜訪，真的要落實，能夠把這個案子促成。"],["林次長國顯：了解。"],["徐委員富癸：我們希望能夠有更多北部的遊客藉由這樣一個便捷的包機業務，能夠很快速到達我們恆春。"],["林次長國顯：是，目前就是請華信積極來處理包機。"],["徐委員富癸：好，這部分期待趕快能夠有一個新的進步，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來再請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f002906d5ce99146424d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9b606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:43:06 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套裝行程整套的都有在賣那以前這種網路上的這種OTA這種平台那誰在管"},{"start":50.782,"end":57.08,"text":"觀光署一直看起來好像是觀光署要管嘛但以前觀光署說網路上的東西還不知道誰要管"},{"start":58.482,"end":88.062,"text":"行政院在今年6月有發布了一個網際網路內容管理基本規範及分工原則因為現在網路上什麼東西都有那到底是什麼樣的動態什麼樣的業務行動有哪個部會管做了一個很明確的跨部門之間的分工機制所以行政院現在把觀光署就定為網路的這些OTA業者的主管機關市長先讓你知道這個事情副市長是吧"},{"start":90.163,"end":111.495,"text":"因為OTA現在業務非常蓬勃所以你不得不管它否則會越來越混亂我舉幾個例子我們台灣有一位非常知名的旅遊的YouTuber他在網路上的名字叫老爸他是一個台灣的網紅"},{"start":113.556,"end":139.112,"text":"他經常介紹他怎麼去旅行他都是透過使用平台來訂購住宿或機票結果他傳了一個影片分享他在SkyScanner這個也是一種網路平台他在買航班的時候看到有一個機票網站他就買了比航空公司的官網還便宜兩千塊他當然買啊所以他從西雅圖機場準備登機的時候被攔下來說他機票有問題"},{"start":141.189,"end":166.743,"text":"所以在平台上這種商業糾紛很多啦恐怕會越來越多啦所以你透過這個平台買票到底有沒有保障如果沒有保障你可能遭到詐騙那今天還有個例子來這個也是一個民宿這個民宿也是蠻有名的他在九份啦九份這家民宿那民眾要去住的時候呢發現他被無預警的撤銷他的訂單"},{"start":169.042,"end":198.551,"text":"去的時候不能住啦他的訂單被取消啦然後他被以兩結果他同樣的房間被這個民宿業者用兩倍的價格重新上架更誇張的是後來他去查才發現這個民宿業者根本是非法旅宿那網路上OTA上面賣的上面到底那麼多的旅遊那麼多的消費者都在上面來購買各式各樣的東西各項的服務那有沒有保障來誰來回答"},{"start":202.097,"end":202.118,"text":"好"},{"start":203.439,"end":231.516,"text":"包委那個非法的部分我們在4月2號的部分已經修正發展官方條例的部分把相關的法則都提高了我想旅館最高會花200萬民宿是100萬那如果刊登非法營業訊息的部分最高也可以花到150萬那我們另外一個做法就是希望這些業者的部分必須把他的合法的旅宿登記證在網路上去呈現表示他是個合法的一個你不能只管旅宿業者啦"},{"start":232.452,"end":253.866,"text":"重點是平台啦我跟你講你現在就是只罰旅宿業者嘛那旅宿業者違法當然該罰啊那現在是你在你這些平台要賺錢喔那個要有一點道德良心啦要有受到至少他要自律嘛他要自我規範嘛那我們政府機關是他律嘛我們就管理他嘛"},{"start":255.168,"end":279.456,"text":"否則現在就是因為沒有監管依據那你不罰平台 所以我管你合法非法你來我這裡看廣告 我也照單全收 對不對你虛擬要來訂 你這裡有房間我管你是不是政府認定的合法產品或者是一般都 或者是旅宿嘛所以因為現在賣的東西非常多現在連門票 租車 機票 住宿計畫都有啊"},{"start":280.878,"end":304.779,"text":"像這些世界級的 我現在秀給你看 這都是很大型的 這就不用我介紹了agoda,trip.com,booking.com 這都是很大型的但是他們也不敢保證 我也不敢保證上面都是合法的我舉個例子 我就看某一個縣市縣市政府他都會公佈 定期公佈他發現的 他抓到的非法旅宿業者"},{"start":305.765,"end":331.35,"text":"那請觀光署你就按照政府公布的這些非法的旅宿業者你去這些平台上面找都可以找到會不會有這種狀況我找給你看會嘛 對不對政府公布這一排這些都是非法的但是你在平台上找得到他還在繼續賣所以喔你要監管的不只是"},{"start":332.472,"end":346.783,"text":"旅宿業者或者是賣機票旅行社或者是代理商你不能只管這些你還要管平台因為平台要負起一點責任他要做第一關的把關他要稍微過濾來 表表一下意見"},{"start":351.128,"end":373.765,"text":"包委員因為目前這些平台他沒有落地在台灣我們可能就是在部分大概只能就是請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請他要求他請"},{"start":375.723,"end":398.815,"text":"以前一些社交平台也是這樣啊Meta啊 Google啊政府機關我們也要求數碼簿等你要去跟他講 你到台灣來賺錢你總要合法合規吧我跟你說新加坡怎麼做啦別的國家做到台灣為什麼你做不到新加坡他甚至規定啦"},{"start":401.087,"end":410.871,"text":"一般的旅行社業者以外OTA也算是旅行代理商啊OTA沒有取得新加坡的執照是會受新加坡政府處罰的啦我們政府現在已經把這個業務歸給你觀光署啦你現在 你現在 抱歉啦先給你供預啦 你沒辦法再推卸責任啦以前如果跟你說這些 你都說不是你們管的啦你們不管網路上面的事情啦來 次長"},{"start":429.369,"end":452.804,"text":"新加坡政府是連OTA都要求要跟他政府訂執照那日本 韓國並沒有做法又不一樣日本 韓國是要求你OTA必須做第一關來你這邊登廣告的你要看他有沒有合法執照你才可以接受他在你這裡上架來做選團"},{"start":454.215,"end":480.612,"text":"是 日本韓國也這樣做包委 日本韓國這個做法現在台灣應該也可以做這個像您剛剛講的我告訴你 頂頭吹一堆違法的 你是就是那些縣市政府查核出來的違法或違規的我們應該要清出來一方面公告給消費者知道 民眾知道第二個我們應該去函給數位部跟這個平台要求它下架這才是對的方式所以我們會朝這邊來做"},{"start":481.613,"end":507.074,"text":"另外我們每一年觀光署都有編預算在做一些旅遊景點來宣傳但我發現我們的廣告預算都下在一些現在越來越少人看的地方現在最多人會瀏覽到的眼球數最多其實也是這裡有OTA你應該廣告也要在上面對不對他跟你業務網也可以要求他遵守我們的法規"},{"start":508.567,"end":527.533,"text":"所以你看香港政府就跟Klook合作那Trip.com好像有很多國家政府也會跟他來合作韓國政府就跟Trip.com這種公司來合作因為現在大部分的人在尋找旅遊資訊都會在這種OTA平台"},{"start":528.885,"end":538.297,"text":"我們都看在國際的廣告 雜誌 報紙就是說你現在要精準投射你的廣告 好不好"},{"start":539.305,"end":567.426,"text":"包委員OTA的部分我們在各市場的部分有做廣告分攤的部分來行銷台灣產品但因為可能它的受眾是國外的旅客所以我們在台灣並沒有看到因為不同的OTA在不同市場有佔有率我們會依照那你可不可以要求他啊那本地 本地會你開錢的它本來就它本來就它有客製化的那種它比較符合你的廣告需求啊你的受眾在這裡移動這樣做啊好不好"},{"start":568.146,"end":571.676,"text":"我們主席已經站起來了謝謝市長 謝謝副市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時43分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部林次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員俊憲：觀光署由誰答詢？副署長是不是？"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：次長早。次長，你知道大部分的人在旅行，其實他安排行程上所有必要的很多東西，都是透過網路的平臺，這種叫OTA（Online Travel 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因為今天整個政府其實是面對國人啊你們所有的錢都是國民電腦納稅的錢在你們身上大家期待的尤其這些觀光產業如果這樣的持續在全世界"},{"start":152.879,"end":171.322,"text":"大部分旅遊這個觀光都已經超越起飛的一個階段尤其很多我們熟悉的國家可是我們還在很努力的想辦法說明我們為什麼不行其他國家就是用人數用產業來代表他行我覺得這個差距太大"},{"start":172.987,"end":194.307,"text":"好 我想請教一下 那署長你坐在那邊也可以回答因為這是一個延續性的問題10月8號 距離現在3個禮拜那時候特別把13個風景區那個副署長你也可以回答副署長 因為你做過兩三個風景區的署長嘛你兩邊都做過 你知道我們在談的是什麼"},{"start":195.748,"end":219.982,"text":"第一個不光是桃園今天就完整目前你13個國家風景區全部涵蓋沒有涵蓋到的有五個縣市台北桃園新竹嘉義以及金門縣我一併來講不要光講桃園好了那你說這個有什麼好講的呢那就風景管理處風景區的預算反正這麼少"},{"start":221.607,"end":248.953,"text":"所以今天各位看一下就114年的單位預算就是我到底在說什麼就是你們觀光署的錢是償付於國家風景管理處你的55.2億的預算其中13個風管處就分掉了61%六成就在這裡所以你說我們沒有被列到的縣市要不要去關心我當然要關心啊"},{"start":249.915,"end":269.902,"text":"第二個早期風景管理處的時候你說他是一個比較特殊的單位特殊單位因為全國只有兩個三個他要特別照顧可是當國家已經發展到九成的縣市八成的縣市全面都是風景管理區我告訴你道館要特別照顧的是那沒有列入的副市長你覺得呢"},{"start":273.959,"end":279.688,"text":"但是這些錢都不會把這五個縣市列入 你覺得這樣公平嗎對於國家的資源"},{"start":281.74,"end":309.75,"text":"報告委員有關就是成立風景區的部分我們有相關程序在走但對於就是沒有列入的部分事實上我們在有些特別預算的部分會由這些像桃園的部分之前我們針對石門水庫事實上也協助了很多預算去整理石門水庫所以就算是沒有列在內那我們觀光圈的部分事實上就是要去彌補有些沒有在風景區裡面去整合這些沒有在風景區裡面的這些縣市的部分這些石樹我知道了"},{"start":310.43,"end":339.61,"text":"就是我們這五個縣市沒有納到你60%的預算跟我們無關但是呢 我們還是會施捨你我們還是會幫忙你憑什麼啊你現在這國家的預算是桃園人 台北人 新竹人是沒有納稅你們注入了33.7億在13個國家風景區啊我當然不是說針對數啦這個制度其實也不是你們訂的可是在這樣的 你去檢討喔從過去保障少數的國家風景區給它支援"},{"start":340.59,"end":366.006,"text":"現在已經多到普遍到只有五個縣市他不屬於這個部分我覺得當時的一個規劃應該要好好去思考這個問題不然你們這個署長也說他在帶動這個國家觀光的一個策略的時候老師的車拉的有五個縣市沒有動因為他拉的是13個國家風雨區這樣的是不行的所以署長你可以在原地回答一下嗎因為當天部長是說"},{"start":367.467,"end":388.013,"text":"他也覺得他也覺得這可以努力所以他說他會馬上跟地方政府一起來努力現在三個禮拜目前的狀況是如何我們現在問題是有針對像北橫的部分嘛對不對是指說其他地方五個五個國家嗎五個縣市嗎"},{"start":396.055,"end":420.96,"text":"好好好 你休息吧反正問題已經問了10月8號部長的回答是說確實 61%的預算跟這些縣市都無關因為有 說真的那這樣覺得很奇怪他也覺得說這個部分我們看是不是用其他地方來補足我們希望在下次的時候能夠有具體的一個答案不光是對桃園那再來"},{"start":422.028,"end":445.921,"text":"好吧如果說不贏我們策略是這樣說不贏講不贏打不贏那我就參加你們的隊伍了好不好那我們這個桃園也申請北橫國家風景區嘛我們也想參加嘛變成第14個國家風景區嘛這也弄了很久了嘛那這樣的好不好次長你說一下你支不支持啊北橫這麼漂亮你支不支持啊"},{"start":447.936,"end":461.299,"text":"包委員他的特色跟條件如果能納入應該是沒有問題現在就是說依照程序他必須要跟原住民部落會議要溝通那所以目前還在程序中是好的"},{"start":462.663,"end":487.444,"text":"國家級的風景區這如果通過的話是由國家所以你要以國家的視野來看這個區塊在整個北台灣是一個非常重要的它確實是一個國家級的景點這是事實山川這麼漂亮它的點也這麼多自然的景觀它早就在本位上風景管理其實它本質早就符合了"},{"start":487.984,"end":512.467,"text":"但是因為第一個他跨了三個縣市包括新北宜蘭桃園那你們不出來幫忙一下你們不出來幫忙一下很多事情扣在一起很難第二個確實部落會議所以我們希望園民會也能來加入幫忙這個部分是不是請次長跟我們署長副署長回去來關心這個議題看看哪裡可以來協助可以嗎"},{"start":514.484,"end":531.024,"text":"我們會全力來瞭解那目前6月2號我們觀光署邀請評鑑委員那原則上這個部落會議只要同意大概就可以納入現在就部落會議我還要跟原民會我是建議部落會議的時候麻煩你們副本行文也請原民會"},{"start":532.245,"end":550.295,"text":"他來協助啦 好不好 幫忙一下桃園市政府 還有一些部落是宜蘭的大家一起地方政府來追著配合 好不好來努力 希望有進度那最後 本來要問署長好啦 就簡單的講 今天拿到你們的一個報告觀光署的一個報告 因為我們"},{"start":551.315,"end":568.913,"text":"真的今天很多的呂素月從大概這個月初打電話給我很多相關的問題結果我也看到你們也有注意到這個問題你們報告特別講呂素月 歇業圈工你們振興改善的一個計畫我特別把你們的重點列出來一二三四五我就不重新念了"},{"start":570.254,"end":590.593,"text":"呂素月缺工到方寬實習生包括這個李外的喬外生我們都有看到可是我就覺得很奇怪寫這報告的是副處長嗎副處長這報告誰寫的是哪一個處寫的還是哪一個科寫的寫的真的還不錯是哪一個哪一個科寫的舉手一下誰寫的你寫的嗎同仁寫的我的天啊"},{"start":596.894,"end":620.954,"text":"我的意思說 你寫了這麼多你有沒有注意到你寫的年度坦白講 我們半年聽你我們這次專案報告 我們要最新的資料我們要署長 現在上任四個月他最新的一個政策 他自己的政策你不要告訴我歷史上的我們做了什麼事情你自己看喔 從112年到最後一條130年10月你看右邊 現在放出來給你看"},{"start":622.645,"end":638.664,"text":"第一條張錫聰 周永輝 局長 署長他們認定第二條一樣第三條張錫聰完成了政策第四條周永輝第五條周永輝不 你寫這個報告給我我就覺得不是不行"},{"start":639.565,"end":664.113,"text":"可是在中間來講我們的署長我們現在的一個部長在今年度我們不然每年給你預算幹嘛我明年給你預算做什麼你說我還要怎麼樣去做所以我是建議我們署長也好部長也好未來除了這些歷史上的你自己署長你新的署長你在每一個政策你都要具體可行的目標讓大家有感來努力好不好"},{"start":665.836,"end":681.446,"text":"跟委員報告就是署長努力就是放寬外籍技術工的部分因為今天才核定所以來不及更新 今天核定好今天嘛好我們希望你真的要努力其實產業界很辛苦謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時31分）謝謝主席。有請林次長。"],["主席：好，次長請。"],["魯委員明哲：現在觀光署是副署長來嗎？"],["主席：陳署長也有到。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有，不方便就坐著，有必要的時候發一個麥克風，因為有時候問到問題要自我去回答，可以用這個來說明。首先，問一下次長好了，因為今天部長也沒來啊！"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：你們到底關不關心觀光產業？"],["林次長國顯：觀光很重要。"],["魯委員明哲：就派你來嘛？因為你是陸、海、空軍屬於空的，我也不知道。請問到底今年900萬的目標，現在達標的信心是怎麼樣？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，還在積極努力中，我們到9月27號是破600萬人次，依照目前的資訊10月26號大概到667萬人次，所以有信心、有努力的目標。"],["魯委員明哲：你看前面9個月（前面三季），目前你們統計是605萬，事實上每一季大概是202萬，如果以這個數字來估算的話，最後一季，因為現在就剩兩個月了，我覺得不見得可以達標，但我要講一下我的心得，尤其我們的署長是來自企業界，當時我們部長用企業人才，我個人是覺得期待，真的很期待，為什麼呢？企業帶進來的企業精神，其實企業精神很重視KPI，也很重績效，當然在公務機關不是以利潤為中心，但是肯定有它的績效。如果在一般企業績效沒有達標，一年沒達標、兩年沒達標，其實早就走人了，沒有機會在這邊說，第二年，我們決定了，今年900萬不達目標，當我再問你，你說報告委員，明年我們800萬來努力。我們國家的觀光這麼多人才可以這樣繼續搞，去年我們從1,200萬拚到1,000萬，最後785萬左右，今年又從1,000萬開始拚，署長來的時候也很誠實說目標900萬。現在看樣子也不能達標，我不知道啦！因為今天整個政府其實是面對國人，你們所有的錢都是國民納稅的錢，在你們身上大家期待的，尤其這些觀光產業如果這樣持續，在全世界大部分旅遊觀光都已經超越起飛的階段，尤其很多我們熟悉的國家，可是我們還在很努力地想辦法說明我們為什麼不行，其他國家就是用人數、用產業來代表他行，我覺得這個差距太大了。","我想請教一下署長，你坐在那邊也可以回答，因為這是一個延續性的問題。10月8號距離現在三個禮拜，那時候特別把13個風景區……副署長，你也可以回答，因為你做過2、3個風景區的處長，你兩邊都做過，你知道我們在談的是什麼？第一個，不光是桃園，今天就完整談，目前13個國家風景區全部涵蓋，沒有涵蓋到的有5個縣市，臺北、桃園、新竹、嘉義以及金門縣，我一併來講，不要光講桃園。好了，你說這有什麼好講的呢？國家管理處風景區的預算反正這麼少，今天各位看一下114年的單位預算，我到底在說什麼？你們觀光署的錢是藏富於國家風景管理處，你55.2億的預算，其中13個風管處就分掉61%，六成就在這裡，所以你說我們沒有被列到的縣市要不要去關心？我當然要關心啊！","第二個，早期風景管理處的時候，你說它是一個比較特殊的單位，因為全國只有2個、3個要特別照顧，可是當國家已經發展到九成的縣市，八成的縣市變成全都是風景管理區，我告訴你，倒過來你要特別照顧的是那沒有列入的，副署長，你覺得呢？這些錢都不會把這5個縣市列入，你覺得這樣公平嗎？對於國家的資源。"],["黃副署長勢芳：報告委員，有關成立風景區的部分，我們有相關程序在走，但對於這次沒有列入的部分，事實上我們在有些特別預算的部分，像桃園之前我們針對於石門水庫，事實上也協助很多預算去整理石門水庫，所以就算是沒有列在內，觀光圈的部分，事實上就是要去彌補、去整合這些沒有在風景區裡面的這些縣市，這些……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道啦！就是這5個縣市沒有納到61%的預算，跟我們無關！但是我們還是會施捨你、我們還是會幫忙你。憑什麼？現在國家的預算是桃園人、臺北人、新竹人沒有納稅？你們注入了33.7億在13個國家風景區，我當然不是針對署，這個制度其實也不是你們定的，可是這樣的情況，你要去檢討，從過去保障少數的國家風景區給它資源，現在已經多到、普遍到只有5個縣市不屬於這個部分，我覺得當時的規劃應該要好好去思考這個問題，不然你們署長也說他在帶動國家觀光策略的時候，老是這車拉著有5個縣市沒有動，因為他拉的是13個國家風景區，這樣的是不行的。所以署長，你可以在原地回答一下嗎？因為當天部長也覺得這可以努力，所以他說會馬上跟地方政府一起來努力。現在三個禮拜了，目前的狀況是如何？"],["陳署長玉秀：我們目前是有針對像北橫的部分嘛，對不對？是指其他5個縣市嗎？"],["魯委員明哲：好、好，你休息吧！我反正問題已經問了，10月8號部長的回答是說，確實61%的預算跟這些縣市都無關。說真的這樣很奇怪，他也覺得這個部分是不是用其他地方來補足。我們希望在下次的時候，能夠有具體的一個答案，不光是對桃園。","再來，好吧！我們策略是這樣，如果說不贏、講不贏、打不贏，那我就參加你們的隊伍，好不好？那我們桃園也申請北橫國家風景區，我們也想參加嘛！變成第14個國家風景區也弄了很久了，這樣子好不好？次長，你說一下，你支不支持啊？北橫這麼漂亮，你支不支持啊？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，它的特色跟條件如果能納入應該是沒有問題，現在就是依照程序，它必須跟原住民部落會議溝通，所以目前還在程序中。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，國家級風景區如果通過的話是由國家……所以你要以國家的視野來看，這個區塊在整個北臺灣是非常重要的，它確實是一個國家級的景點，這是事實，山川這麼漂亮，它的點也這麼多，自然的景觀，它在風景管理本質上早就符合了，但是因為第一個，它跨了3個縣市包括新北、宜蘭、桃園，那你們不出來幫忙一下，很多事情扣在一起很難；第二個，確實部落會議，所以我們希望原民會也能加入幫忙。這個部分是不是請次長跟署長、副署長回去關心這個議題，看看哪裡可以協助，可以嗎？"],["林次長國顯：是，我們會全力來了解，目前6月2號觀光署也有邀集評鑑委員，原則上部落會議只要同意大概就可以納入，現在就是部落會議的部分我們還要跟原民會……"],["魯委員明哲：我是建議在部落會議的時候，麻煩你們副本行文也請原民會來協助啦，好不好？幫忙一下桃園市政府，還有些部落是宜蘭的，我們大家跟地方政府一起來配合、來努力，好不好？希望有進度。"],["林次長國顯：好的，謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：最後，本來是要問署長的，好啦！就簡單來講，今天拿到你們觀光署的報告，因為真的很多的旅宿業，這個月月初有打電話給我詢問很多相關的問題，其實我也看到你們也有注意到這個問題，你們的報告特別講旅宿業及企業缺工的振興改善計畫，我特別把你們的重點列出來，有這1、2、3、4、5，我就不重新唸了，從旅宿業缺工到放寬實習生，包括旅外的僑外生，我們都有看到。可是我就覺得很奇怪，寫這份報告的是副署長嗎？副署長，這報告誰寫的？是哪一個處寫的？還是哪一個科寫的？寫得真的還不錯，是哪一個科寫的？舉手一下。"],["林次長國顯：是旅宿組。"],["魯委員明哲：誰寫的？你寫的嘛？"],["鄭副組長憶萍：是同仁寫的。"],["魯委員明哲：是同仁寫的。我的天啊！我的意思是，你寫了這麼多，你有沒有注意到你寫的年度？坦白講，我們半年聽你……這次專案報告我們要最新的資料，署長現在上任4個月，他自己最新的政策，你不要告訴我歷史上的，你們做了什麼事情，你看一下簡報，從112年到最後一條的113年10月，你看右邊列出來的欄位，第一條是張錫聰局長及周永暉署長的任內、第二條一樣、第三條張錫聰完成的政策、第四條周永暉、第五條周永暉，你寫這個報告給我，我覺得不是不行，可是這中間來講，我們的署長、現在的部長，在今年度……不然每年給你預算幹嘛！我每年給你預算做什麼？你說我還要怎麼樣去做，所以我是建議署長也好、部長也好，未來除了這些歷史上的，你自己署的新署長，在每一個政策都要具體可行的目標，讓大家有感，一起來努力，好不好？"],["黃副署長勢芳：跟委員報告，署長的努力就是放寬外籍技術工的部分，因為今天才核定，所以來不及更新，資料來不及更新。"],["魯委員明哲：今天核定？"],["黃副署長勢芳：對。"],["魯委員明哲：今天嘛？好，我希望你們真的要努力啦！其實產業界很辛苦，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。也跟魯明哲委員報告，之前要資料，本席跟您一樣，也都一直沒有辦法拿到更新的資料，但是我們排了今天的專案報告之後，就很巧的行政院院會拍板今天要核定，所以如果真的是這樣的話，以後我們就多排一些關心的專案報告，可能就會督促行政部門有更新的進度，謝謝。","再來請林俊憲委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f0096f64a834e0c7dafd0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:20:49 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霧峰林家還有國家歌劇院來 接下來我請教一下你帶他們來彩線團走的路線是你提供給我的這三條線嗎"},{"start":303.956,"end":321.062,"text":"你看一下你的資料這是你們提供給我的就是說你們推薦台中的遊輪觀光能夠落地那觀光客有三套行程一個是從台中港到市區裡面國家歌劇院對不對再回到海線的高美濕地對不對"},{"start":322.082,"end":347.58,"text":"那一個是呢往彰化鹿港老街那邊走嘛再回到台中的這個山景Outlet那第三條線是從台中我一直強調的山海屯市區我們希望都有各有特色的一個行程所以第三條線是往屯區走嘛對不對再回到台中港港區因為現在台中中台灣台中的這個交通是非常方便的那所以我是想問說這三條"},{"start":350.382,"end":370.957,"text":"旅遊行程路線是確定嗎還是說這是你們帶彩線團來走的事半路線那個跟委員報告這個是我們初步的規劃但是這個都可以去做調整委員或是委員的辦公室如果有更加的我們都可以去開放多元的行程出來"},{"start":371.357,"end":390.772,"text":"我是建議啦我為什麼會提這個當然這個很好你有分山海屯市區都有把我們大台中市都有琢磨到那有帶大家繞一圈但是我為什麼會問這個呢因為台中是一個年輕的城市我們有很多的特色而且根據國際郵輪協會2025的報告那以後郵輪的觀光的族群有年輕化的趨勢"},{"start":397.697,"end":413.182,"text":"也就是說他從原來的可能是60歲70歲的銀髮族的一個退休族的一個觀光到現在有是家庭家族親子甚至年輕人的選擇也選擇郵輪"},{"start":415.163,"end":427.826,"text":"就是他有年轻化的趋势那所以我们在相关的设计的一个套装形成里面我们可以更多元的开发这个是我的提醒为什么呢因为我们认为对焦"},{"start":429.524,"end":451.901,"text":"來行銷很重要對焦行銷很重要那我們如何去擴大我想業界有在做這樣子的一個精準的一個聚焦的行銷這個策略這樣方式你們也應該懂你們也應該做所以我認為我們還要運用現代化的一個數據分析我今天台中港有"},{"start":452.902,"end":479.889,"text":"八艘郵輪要來那我在八艘郵輪裡面我們可不可以事先去盤點一下或者是在捉摸一下來的旅客的年齡層那課程的年齡可以決定他的旅遊的樣態他可能喜歡什麼樣的旅遊形式那我們用這樣子的分析來找出不同族群的偏好行程那我們可以來設定"},{"start":482.042,"end":503.846,"text":"以客為尊那我台中有很多可以去互相搭配的好的行程所以剛剛講的三條那個三海豚市區那我也可以有年輕的更多元化的行程我覺得這個部分是我們應該要應用現在的新的"},{"start":504.586,"end":520.63,"text":"數位化的行銷策略來因應那來打造大台中的特色行程這個你們做得到嗎可以謝謝委員可以嗎好不好感謝那最後最後這個外語的導遊人才因為有郵輪那帶進國際觀光客那來的人呢"},{"start":524.071,"end":548.933,"text":"英文為主還是日本人韓國人甚至東南亞國家的旅客現在我們大概外語的導遊人才英文沒問題日語也沒問題韓語現在也熱門可是其他的語言要搭配我們的華語的導遊所以這個部分我覺得人才的培育應該要更加強"},{"start":550.374,"end":567.653,"text":"這個部分我們打算怎麼因應我們有解決方案嗎英文一般是國際語言那我們有關稀少語言的部分會加強訓練那除了訓練之外我們應該要提供誘因就是訓練完成的人他願意從事相關的行業"},{"start":568.354,"end":589.571,"text":"那有關郵程的部分我也這邊補充說明因為還是要由郵輪賣的出去所以變成郵輪遊客喜歡跟後續地階設的整合部分我們會配合郵輪公司來做一個調整那除了所謂的郵輪上的郵程跟後續有些是屬於自由行的客人這些景點的介紹我想我們光屬也會做好相關的一個準備來服務遊客"},{"start":591.252,"end":603.378,"text":"那再拜託會後再給我相關的資料期待這一次明年度的這八艘次的郵輪能夠成功 未來來爭取更多的郵輪可以進來台中 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時20分）謝謝主席。洪孟楷召委，我們請次長。"],["主席：林次長請。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：次長好，辛苦了，大家身體都要保重，身體健康最重要。剛剛李昆澤召委有提到，很多國家已經開始把觀光提升在一個國家級的戰略思維。這樣子的戰略思維，我知道我們今年打算力拚一個觀光訓研院對不對？"],["林次長國顯：研訓院。"],["何委員欣純：好，那你有信心今年可以拚三讀通過嗎？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，我們研訓院經過觀光署的分析，也跟院裡做過兩次報告，目前副院長已經指導我們調整成四大主軸，第一個是跟國際接軌、國際品牌的行銷；第二個是跟地方的產業促進結合；第三個是調查研訓跟策略規劃；第四個是考照訓練。"],["何委員欣純：對，所以……"],["林次長國顯：所以這些策略我們目前都在準備……"],["何委員欣純：都在準備，有打算在什麼時候送到立法院嗎？"],["林次長國顯：年底成立籌備處，明年初能夠掛牌，因為他是用財團法人法來成立……"],["何委員欣純：用財團法人法，所以他不是用行政法人？"],["林次長國顯：是，財團法人法。"],["何委員欣純：OK，我們希望儘速，我們絕對全力支持，因為觀光作為臺灣未來要推展的一個最重要的產業，我們的國家級戰略思維，如何來重建臺灣的觀光，甚至如同過去我們一直強調的，質、量都要並重。為什麼我會提這件事？因為剛剛李昆澤委員有稍微提到，韓國的思維裡面有對於區域品牌的建立，我想在未來財團法人的研訓院，對於區域品牌的建立也是一個重點。我要跟次長和署長討論的就是，我們長期在爭取、質詢推動臺中的觀光，中臺灣的區域品牌該如何建立，其中一個策略是郵輪。當然我也非常感謝港務公司的努力，終於破零，明年即將迎來郵輪。","我在2023年的5月就提醒，我們國際郵輪的招商不夠好、不夠快，踩線團也不夠，對臺中各地區域特色的旅遊套裝行程做得不夠好，所以我要求要積極找國外的踩線團來，這個有做到，我先肯定。2024我也在講，中央跟地方政府如何合作，把該做的準備做好、做滿、做足，能夠迎接郵輪國際的觀光客落地。我知道經過港務公司的努力，2026臺中港預計會有八艘次，有四艘郵輪對不對？所以次長，我也必須要講，終於我們可以破蛋、破零。"],["林次長國顯：非常謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：是，大家很努力我先肯定，但是好還要更好，相對於其他的港口，臺中港只有八艘次，我當然還是不滿意，但起碼是一個開始。我只是想知道，跟地方政府的合作，包括在地交通接駁，岸上的觀光行程都準備好了嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我請港務公司張副總經理說明。"],["何委員欣純：好。"],["張副總經理展榮：跟委員報告，這部分我們都已經有積極準備，因為很難得繼疫情之後又有四艘郵輪要來臺中港，我們非常重視。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！我們期待很久了。"],["張副總經理展榮：是，所以我們今年也安排國外這些知名的郵輪公司來踩線，從6月、10月到下個月都有，臺中也……"],["何委員欣純：從6月到下個月？"],["張副總經理展榮：6月有一次，10月有一次，然後11月也有，所以我們也安排臺中這邊去考察，像鹿港老街、霧峰林家，還有國家歌劇院……"],["何委員欣純：我請教一下，你帶踩線團走的路線，是你提供給我的這三條線嗎？你看一下你的資料，這是你們提供給我的。"],["張副總經理展榮：是。"],["何委員欣純：你們推薦臺中的郵輪觀光能夠落地，那觀光客有三套行程。"],["張副總經理展榮：是。"],["何委員欣純：一個是從臺中港到市區裡面的國家歌劇院，再回到海線的高美溼地；一個是往彰化鹿港老街那邊走，再回到臺中的三井outlet；第三條線是我一直強調的山海屯市區，我們希望都有各有特色的行程，所以第三條線是往屯區走，再回到臺中港港區。"],["張副總經理展榮：是。"],["何委員欣純：因為現在臺中的交通是非常方便的，所以我想問這三條行程路線是確定的嗎？還是說這是你們帶踩線團來走的試辦路線？"],["張副總經理展榮：跟委員報告，這是我們初步的規劃，但是都可以調整，委員或是委員的辦公室如果有更佳的，我們都可以開放多元的行程出來沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議，我為什麼會提這個？當然這個很好，你有分山海屯市區，整個大臺中市都有著墨到，有帶大家繞一圈，但是我為什麼會問這個呢？因為臺中是一個年輕的城市，我們有很多的特色，而且根據國際郵輪協會2025的報告，疫後郵輪的觀光族群有年輕化的趨勢。也就是說，從原來可能是60歲、70歲的銀髮族、退休族的觀光，到現在是家庭、家族、親子、甚至年輕人也選擇郵輪，有年輕化的趨勢。"],["張副總經理展榮：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們在設計相關套裝行程時，可以更多元的開發，這是我的提醒。為什麼呢？因為我們認為對焦行銷很重要，我們如何去擴大，我想業界有在做這種精準的聚焦行銷，這個策略、這種方式你們也應該懂，你們也應該做。所以我認為，我們還要運用現代化的數據分析。今天臺中港有八艘郵輪要來，那這八艘郵輪可不可以事先去盤點一下，或者是著墨一下旅客的年齡層？","客層的年齡可以決定他的旅遊樣態，他可能喜歡什麼樣的旅遊形式？我們用這樣子的分析，找出不同族群的偏好行程，我們可以來設定，以客為尊嘛！臺中有很多可以互相搭配的好的行程，剛剛講的三條山海屯市區，也可以有年輕和更多元化的行程。我覺得這個部分，我們應該要應用現在新的數位化行銷策略來因應，打造大臺中的特色行程，這個你們做得到嗎？"],["張副總經理展榮：可以，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：好，最後是外語的導遊人才，因為有郵輪帶進國際觀光客，來的人是英文為主，還是日本人、韓國人，甚至是東南亞國家的旅客？現在我們外語的導遊人才英文沒問題，日語也沒問題，韓語現在也熱門，可是其他的語言要搭配我們的華語導遊。所以這個部分，我覺得人才的培育應該要更加強，這個部分你們打算怎麼因應？有解決方案嗎？"],["黃副署長勢芳：報告委員，英文一般是國際語言。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！"],["黃副署長勢芳：有關稀少語言的部分我們會加強訓練，除了訓練之外我們應該要提供誘因，就是訓練完成的人願意從事相關的行業。有關遊程的部分我也補充說明，因為還是要郵輪賣得出去，所以變成郵輪的遊客喜歡跟後續地接社的整合部分，我們會配合郵輪公司調整，除了郵輪上的遊程跟後續有些是屬於自由行的客人，這些景點的介紹，我想觀光署也會做好相關的準備來服務遊客。"],["何委員欣純：好，那再拜託，會後再給我相關的資料。"],["黃副署長勢芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：期待這一次明年度這8艘次的郵輪能夠成功，未來爭取更多的郵輪可以進來臺中，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來再請魯明哲委員質詢。我們宣告：等一下林俊憲委員質詢完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f00911ec58e2fb96d5bd0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c9210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:09:26 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副所長 次長那我們來討論一下我們台灣"},{"start":136.584,"end":139.978,"text":"的觀光旅遊陷入什麼困境有什麼問題來說一下"},{"start":142.642,"end":166.848,"text":"稍微 其實目前觀光的問題大概剛剛陳署長也有稍微說明一個是國人習慣去國外旅遊因為現在航網跟航線也真的很方便像我們到日本一周大概有800多個航次那費用也低那第二個是國內的環境跟這個旅宿的費用也相對高"},{"start":167.888,"end":190.234,"text":"第三個是我們國內的景點有一些也需要推陳出新市長你所談的都是相關比較知微莫解的一些問題那我們主要來看我們台灣觀光陷入的困境到底是什麼我們的觀光景點第一個觀光景點的同質性高"},{"start":191.53,"end":200.333,"text":"我們沒有辦法去建立區域旅遊品牌的這樣的一個形象都是個別的熱門的一個觀光景點而已"},{"start":200.97,"end":222.237,"text":"第二我們相關的資訊的禁用性跟交通系統的整合一直是我在交通委員會啊督促交通部及觀光署要去做改善也沒有做到就是說我們的資訊禁用性以及相關的交通系統的整合做的不好讓旅客啊"},{"start":223.564,"end":251.818,"text":"只能在北北基桃这样的一个地方来旅游如果说他们要去北北基桃以外地区旅游相关的资讯跟相关的交通无法配合另外第三就是我们的观光区过度的集中那这些观光区过度的集中它形成一个热门的观光的景点之后导致"},{"start":252.912,"end":276.133,"text":"它的品質下滑 性價比低那也就是說我們國際旅客比較少人知道比較沒有知名度的觀光區啊它沒有辦法得到適當的一個曝光行銷與價值開發世界各國都已經在多元化的這樣的一個"},{"start":277.478,"end":298.214,"text":"旅遊啦我們看到日本看到韓國世界各國主要都已經多元化二線三線的城市我們現在連主要的這樣的一個相關的二線三線都毫無辦法去建立另外就是提到我們觀光的人力的缺口"},{"start":299.796,"end":309.405,"text":"訓練也不足然後產業升級跟不上國際旅遊的一個服務的標準跟趨勢來我請黃副署長來你也來簡單說明一下"},{"start":316.004,"end":333.104,"text":"首先委員提的問題的部分我們事實上包括所謂的人過度集中的部分我們是利用現在的數位化跟智慧化希望去掌握人流讓人不要過度集中去影響到旅遊的品質我想這部分我們是今年度列為重點那交通整合部分我們有推"},{"start":333.724,"end":362.166,"text":"相關的一個交通卡我們包括所謂的台鐵高鐵還有我們的台灣好行台灣官邦的一個整合那因為目前是初始階段後續我們也希望藉由各個景區的這些旅行店的一個整合我想這部分也有類似就是去學習日本的一些所謂的一卡的部分來方便所謂不管是自由行旅客我想這部分我們會持續去努力那區域品牌的部分事實上我們有跟地方政府在配合"},{"start":363.126,"end":378.074,"text":"針對於地方政府提供的相關建設計畫我想我們的旅客啊來的已經是下降復甦的慢那我看到我們相關的這些國際旅遊啊"},{"start":379.428,"end":406.567,"text":"我們看到日本已經在討論觀光公害的這樣一個議題當然我們沒有觀光公害這樣的一個問題但是我們還是有旅客過度集中某幾個熱門景點的這樣一個問題日本的觀光公害現象就是旅客大量的湧入然後造成環境的複合然後服務就會產生品質低落這樣一個問題那其實它會形成一個惡性的循環"},{"start":407.668,"end":413.158,"text":"就是說大量旅客品質惡化然後就有負面的評價也會造成"},{"start":414.281,"end":440.431,"text":"旅客嚴重的這種降低重訪的這樣一個意願那觀光形象也會受到損害旅客流失品質再進一步的這樣一個惡化因為時間的關係我也簡單的說明我們來參考國際的經驗日本的經驗他們有相關應對的策略第一個區域觀光來做分流進行了品牌來"},{"start":441.872,"end":468.921,"text":"建立他們的品牌之後來進行相關的客群的分流人家已經做到這個地步已經在做客群的分流第二觀光景點的一個管制就是說採取預約制或是總量管制那也要進行差異化的補助差異化的補助我認為是一個很值得參考的一個重點就是說我們來根據區域的特性來進行補助那鼓勵旅客"},{"start":470.092,"end":479.819,"text":"區道比較有獨特性或是比較沒有知名度但是他有潛力發展的這些景點我們來進行差異化補助但是我們現在補助都不"},{"start":480.816,"end":506.716,"text":"都跟日本的做法不一樣我們都是全面的這樣平均的補助這樣我認為是會有問題的那或者是專案的補助專案的補助我們來鼓勵區域的團體業者推出具有這種獨特性的觀光推廣的一些發展計畫每岸有五千萬的日幣大概就台幣一千萬至一千三百萬左右"},{"start":507.617,"end":535.863,"text":"更重要有一個永續的認證就是推動JSTST的這樣的一個標準就是日本的一個永續觀光的一個認證的一個標準那強化他們相關人員的培訓以及景區的環境永續那我也再借用最後一點時間我們來看韓國的做法韓國的做法他們召開第十屆國家旅遊的戰略會議"},{"start":537.463,"end":559.5,"text":"已經提升到旅遊的戰略會議呢第一個首爾同級的這樣一個新的旅遊中心編列預算他們還要再開發一個新的旅遊中心出來一個新的旅遊中心出來他們也在推動次級的觀光圈呢在首爾的周邊打造這種次級的觀光圈來做分流"},{"start":560.595,"end":579.455,"text":"第三就是區域的品牌補助兼投入預算來支持地方政府建立區域旅遊的品牌這也都是值得我們借鏡我們一直都是在台北101然後萬華士林夜市"},{"start":581.721,"end":600.489,"text":"不然就是日月潭阿里山現在太魯閣因為地震台灣的關係也受到衝擊你看日本韓國旅客就來了降低了非常的多另外就是愛鄉的這種愛鄉券的優惠就是說離島的旅遊退還50%的旅費同步推出連續的優惠券"},{"start":607.314,"end":619.046,"text":"連續的優惠券這個也是值得我們借鏡啊不然我們的旅遊現在大概都是一日性的這種住宿率也沒有成長這"},{"start":622.881,"end":648.811,"text":"這種連宿的優惠券島嶼的住宿的優惠券都值得我們去做參考好那其實大家對觀光署要求都非常的嚴格那也希望你們要達成這種推動旅遊的這樣一個基本的目標那也請交通部嚴加督促是那陳署長也因為工作非常的繁重"},{"start":649.851,"end":667.687,"text":"但是也希望你自己要保重身體你看你們觀光署其他的同仁氣色都非常好你自己要多保重謝謝謝謝委員那您的這個日本跟韓國的資訊我們會帶回來參考如果有機會我們再跟您報告目前觀光署的做法謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時9分）謝謝召委。","陳署長不用上來，你真的身體不舒服的話，來跟洪孟楷召委報告，他會公正的處理。","謝謝召委，請林國顯次長，還有黃勢芳副署長。"],["主席：有，也跟召委報告，昨天有接獲署長這樣的狀況，我就特別准許，也說請副署長一定要陪同，今天如果真的有什麼問題的部分，也請副署長都要備詢。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝召委，召委的善良，大家都很肯定，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：次長跟副署長，我們來看臺灣的觀光，其實是已經陷入困境，我們今年國際旅客的目標已經下修到900萬，但是看到今年1至7月大概只有478萬，如果以這樣一個趨勢來看，今年大概是830萬到840萬之間，當然我也知道觀光署有在全力衝刺，也希望你們能夠達成低標。但是我們的觀光旅遊其實有三大問題，第一個問題就是我們整體的國際觀光已經落後國際的平均標準，這部分我們是落後的；第二個，我們已經連續兩年無法達成下修的目標，說起來也很尷尬，這兩年所謂的高標或是低標都是由我跟部長在委員會討論出來的，但是都沒有辦法達成；第三個問題，它所展現出的，這已經不是因為國際疫情的衝擊，也不是所謂匯率的問題，這已經是臺灣觀光結構出現了危機。次長，我們來討論一下，我們臺灣的觀光旅遊陷入什麼困境？有哪些問題，你說一下。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，其實目前觀光的問題剛剛陳署長大概有稍微說明，一個是國人習慣去國外旅遊，因為現在航網跟航線也真的很方便，像我們到日本一週大概有八百多個航次，費用也低；第二個是國內的環境跟旅宿的費用也相對高；第三個是我們國內的景點有一些也需要推陳出新……"],["李委員昆澤：次長，你所談的都是比較枝微末節的問題。我們來看我們臺灣觀光主要陷入的困境到底是什麼，第一個，我們的觀光景點同質性高，沒有辦法建立區域旅遊品牌這樣的形象，都是個別的熱門觀光景點而已。第二個，相關資訊的近用性跟交通系統的整合，這一直是我在交通委員會督促交通部及觀光署要去改善的，也沒有做到，就是我們的資訊近用性以及相關的交通系統整合做得不好，讓旅客只能在北北基桃這樣的地方旅遊，如果他們要去北北基桃以外的地區旅遊，相關的資訊跟交通無法配合。第三個就是我們的觀光區過度集中，形成一個熱門的觀光景點之後，導致它的品質下滑，性價比低，也就是說，國際旅客比較少人知道、比較沒有知名度的觀光區，沒有辦法得到適當的曝光、行銷與價值開發。世界各國都已經開發多元化的旅遊，我們看到日本、看到韓國，世界各國都已經多元化，有二線、三線的城市，我們現在連相關的二線、三線都毫無辦法建立。另外就是提到我們觀光的人力缺口，訓練也不足，產業升級跟不上國際旅遊服務的標準及趨勢。我請黃副署長，你也來簡單說明一下。"],["黃副署長勢芳：首先委員提的問題，包括人過度集中的部分，我們是利用數位化跟智慧化，希望能夠掌握人流，讓人不要過度集中影響到旅遊的品質，這部分我們今年度是列為重點。交通整合的部分，我們有推相關的交通卡，包括臺鐵、高鐵，還有台灣好行、台灣觀巴的整合。因為目前是初始階段，後續我們也希望藉由各個景區旅行店的整合，這部分也去學習類似日本的一卡的部分來方便自由行旅客，這部分我們會持續去努力。區域品牌的部分，事實上我們有跟地方政府在配合，針對地方政府提供的相關建設計畫……"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝副署長，我想我們的旅客數已經是下降，復甦得慢，我看到相關的國際旅遊，日本已經在討論觀光公害的議題，當然我們沒有觀光公害的問題，但是我們還是有旅客過度集中某幾個熱門景點的問題。日本的觀光公害現象就是旅客大量湧入，造成環境負荷超載，也產生服務品質低落的問題，其實這會形成一個惡性循環，就是大量旅客造成旅遊品質惡化，然後就有負面的評價，也會造成旅客嚴重降低重訪意願，觀光形象也會受到損害，旅客流失，品質再進一步地惡化。","因為時間的關係，我也簡單地說明，我們來參考國際的經驗，日本的經驗，他們有相關的應對策略，第一個，區域觀光分流，建立品牌之後進行相關的客群分流，人家已經做到這個地步，已經在做客群的分流。第二個，觀光景點管制，就是採取預約制或是總量管制，也要進行差異化的補助。差異化的補助我認為是一個很值得參考的重點，就是根據區域的特性進行補助，鼓勵旅客去比較有獨特性或是比較沒有知名度但是有潛力發展的這些景點，我們來進行差異化補助。但是我們現在的補助都跟日本的做法不一樣，我們都是全面平均的補助，這樣我認為是會有問題的。或者是專案的補助，鼓勵區域的團體業者推出具有獨特性的觀光推廣發展計畫，每案有5,000萬日幣，大概就是臺幣1,000萬至1,300萬左右。更重要的有一個永續認證，就是推動JSTS-D標準，就是日本一個永續觀光的認證標準，強化相關人員培訓，以及景區的環境永續。","我再借用最後一點時間，我們來看韓國的作法，他們召開第十屆國家旅遊的戰略會議，已經提升到旅遊的戰略會議了，第一個，與首爾同級的新旅遊中心，編列預算，他們還要再開發一個新的旅遊中心出來，他們也在推動次級的觀光圈，在首爾的周邊打造次級的觀光圈來做分流；第三個就是區域的品牌補助，投入預算來支持地方政府建立區域旅遊的品牌，這也都值得我們借鏡。我們一直都是在台北101，然後萬華、士林夜市，不然就是日月潭、阿里山，現在太魯閣因為地震、颱風的關係也受到衝擊，你看日本、韓國旅客就降低了非常多。另外韓國還有愛鄉券優惠，就是離島的旅遊退還50%的旅費，同步推出連宿優惠券，這個也是值得我們借鏡的，不然我們的旅遊現在大概都是一日性的，住宿率也沒有成長，這種連宿優惠券、島嶼住宿優惠券，都值得我們去做參考。","其實大家對觀光署要求都非常的嚴格，希望你們要達成推動旅遊這樣的基本目標，也請交通部嚴加督促。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["李委員昆澤：陳署長的工作非常繁重，希望你要保重身體。你看觀光署其他的同仁氣色都非常好，你自己要多保重，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員，您的日本跟韓國的資訊，我們會帶回去參考，如果有機會我們再跟您報告目前觀光署的作法，謝謝委員。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，希望大家氣色都好。","接下來請我們氣色也很好的何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-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好不好那就請次長 次長請很早那個幾個 第一個我想就是這個"},{"start":24.11,"end":47.089,"text":"一次性備品 這個基於這個SDGs ESG等等我都很支持一次性備品的不主動提供 這個可以但我看那個新聞有寫說這個呃 屢宿業的預金啊不不不提供 就以後旅行要自己帶預金去啊這個 觀光署是不是有澄清了來 請 請 觀光署"},{"start":58.353,"end":78.969,"text":"報告委員我是廣東署旅宿組的副組長曾一平那有關於一次性備品的部分呢大概兩個原則嘛就是以大代小還有鼓勵就是六項牙膏牙收六項部分是旅客要自備然後一次性的不用再講我的意思說預金算一次性嗎這個不算不列在這個六項當中的列管當中"},{"start":80.731,"end":95.689,"text":"這個普遍在台灣的旅宿業目前說把預金列為一次性的加速多嗎不多應該是個案而已這個案都跟他們告知了我們有告知旅宿業者那在上個禮拜也發了新聞稿這個要廣為讓"},{"start":98.752,"end":126.027,"text":"我們有旅館有 旅宿有公會嘛應該讓他們知道 也讓消費者知道沒有這件事情那也要請相關的旅宿業者要在官網上公告對對對 這個一定要說明清楚啦否則這個對台灣影響也很大外國人來還要自己帶預金這個不合理啦第二個我想 您請坐來市長 這個第二個我想那個署長聽一下就好了這個我們現在開始做很多的行銷"},{"start":127.284,"end":148.312,"text":"目的就是希望把國外旅客介紹台灣讓他們可以進來換言之我們對於英磅的市場我們投入了很多的資源那我的意思就是我不知道署裡面對於觀光署投入這些行銷資源有沒有相關的KPI也就是有沒有相關的對效果效益的這些檢測"},{"start":149.973,"end":175.871,"text":"譬如說我隨便挑幾個來看因為大家其實現在政治工作者基本上也都經營自己的頻道自己經營自己的社群不只政治各行各業其實都是一樣的那我們一些很客觀的數字就可以來看譬如說這個圖裡面你看你請那個龜賢來代言的影片一個月前觀看次數是1049次"},{"start":181.082,"end":183.67,"text":"這個概念上應該請我代言你不只1049"},{"start":186.189,"end":214.188,"text":"而且我還不用收費我的意思就是該檢討啦那左邊這個是我們這個星級旅館的影片他觀看次數有4.5萬感覺起來還不錯但是只有看觀看次數我們也都知道嘛大家都內行人那個找機器人找網軍點一點他次數就可以飆高嘛這個不是我們要的所以我們會再搭配譬如說這個留言數留言數來下一頁"},{"start":216.169,"end":216.22,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":218.707,"end":248.027,"text":"你看這個左邊這個是韓國觀光公社他請那個韓國叫做國民男友朴寶劍的這個代言的這個影片你可以看得到他這個幾萬是基本然後他最高還可以到1.3億次當然人口不一樣韓國至少是我們的他5000萬人所以也不能夠完全用這個來去但是至少他的明顯他的數字比較合理一點"},{"start":249.007,"end":272.737,"text":"那其他我們的叫做觀光署裡面的影片你可以看他相對其實就不多甚至也有那個幾百次譬如說我剛剛講龜賢1049那旁邊這個有沒有這個叫做這個佳穎是吧這個才729次這個其實都是很明顯的數字很不合理的地方好來下一個"},{"start":275.333,"end":295.683,"text":"好那這個是去年就是找許光漢代言觀看次數就有破百萬的就有破百萬的來下一頁好那這是找那個泰星泰國的明星來代言的那觀看次數有這個20萬次觀看次數有20萬次這個應該也算不錯啦不錯好再來好這個是一樣的就是那個好"},{"start":301.872,"end":327.402,"text":"然後再來就是這個是韓國的那個經紀公司的社群平台好來那所以我們我剛剛講過你從這些數字來看公安署應該要好好的來管理就是我們我今天來不是要檢討說他因為這個數字沒有什麼沒有一定點很高也不見得怎麼樣因為我們會講合理的是按讚數跟"},{"start":328.903,"end":354.877,"text":"跟那個留言數要一定程度的比例就是你按讚50萬留言3這個一定慣的一定慣的因為這個大概大家你們問一下可能觀光署裡面的年輕同仁他們有平常在使用社群平台應該就可以知道所以換言之觀光署應該對這些投入譬如說投入龜嫌投入哪一個影星我都沒意見你們去找去找適當的人但每一年都應該有這樣的一個檢討"},{"start":356.798,"end":384.035,"text":"對於投入效果的檢討甚至不用到年底年中我們就應該好好的來檢討譬如說這個明顯到底這是他沒有認真在推就代言那個人沒有很認真他自己也有社群平台他社群平台可能自己都比我們高非常的多可是他代言我們的影片是通路有問題是因為我們沒有在YouTube下廣告YouTube下廣告它其實就是點數利率比較高所以到底是什麼原因一定要好好的把它檢討出來"},{"start":386.629,"end":412.571,"text":"市長這樣你懂我的意思嗎非常認同我們投入的經費都要確認它用在對的地方所以我把它整理出來那最後我有一個事情也讓你們參考一下我們如果來做一個比較這個我們辦公室把它整理一下最後一張那個韓國觀光公社你看它的國際策略它的國際策略其實它不只是除了我剛剛講那個KPI檢討到底什麼原因該怎麼做你看它更重要的是它把它的這個"},{"start":414.79,"end":436.076,"text":"我們的社群平台當成主要的媒體平台同時他投資高質量的內容那更重要的是你看他的內容本身就是高質量的娛樂產業然後觀眾是主動搜尋和分享也就是說除了事後的KPI的檢討我們怎麼去跟這一個"},{"start":438.758,"end":456.855,"text":"網紅或者跟這一個代言的明星來合作其實那個內容的討論更重要或者他怎麼去持續讓他變成一個可以增加啦而不是事後說你沒有用我就換一個就從內容的投入應該就要開始因為時間的關係啦這個我會後會給你們參考所以我覺得這個是對於我們這些"},{"start":461.563,"end":469.156,"text":"行銷的費用必須錢要花在刀口上要做一些有用的事情好不好這個市長我今天因為時間關係我就講到這裡非常謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時01分）謝謝主席。署長因為身體不舒服，你坐著就好了，好不好？那就請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，幾個啦！第一個，一次性備品基於SDGs、ESG等等，我都很支持，一次性備品不主動提供，這個可以，但是我看新聞有寫旅宿業不提供浴巾，以後旅行要自己帶浴巾去，這個觀光署是不是有澄清了？"],["林次長國顯：請觀光署。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：報告委員，我是觀光署旅宿組的副組長鄭憶萍。有關於一次性備品的部分大概兩個原則，就是以大代小，還有鼓勵牙膏、牙刷等6項的部分是旅客要自備，然後……"],["蔡委員其昌：一次性的不用再講，我的意思是說浴巾算一次性嗎？"],["鄭副組長憶萍：這個不算，不列在這六項的列管當中。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，臺灣的旅宿業目前普遍把浴巾列為一次性的家數多嗎？"],["鄭副組長憶萍：不多。"],["蔡委員其昌：不多？"],["鄭副組長憶萍：對，應該是個案而已。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個案都跟他們告知了？"],["鄭副組長憶萍：我們有告知旅宿業者，在上個禮拜也發了新聞稿，已經澄清了。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這個要廣為讓……旅館、旅宿有公會嘛！"],["鄭副組長憶萍：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該讓他們知道。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：也有。"],["蔡委員其昌：也讓消費者知道有沒有這件事情。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：有，也有請相關的旅宿業者要在官網上公告。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，這個一定要說明清楚。"],["鄭副組長憶萍：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：否則這個對臺灣影響也很大，外國人來還要自己帶浴巾，不合理啦！"],["鄭副組長憶萍：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：你請坐。次長，第二個，我想署長聽一下就好了，我們現在開始做很多的行銷，目的就是希望向國外旅客介紹臺灣，讓他們可以進來。換言之，我們對於inbound市場投入了很多資源。我的意思就是，我不知道署裡面對於觀光署投入這些行銷資源有沒有相關的KPI？也就是有沒有對效果、效益相關的這些檢測。譬如說我隨便挑幾個來看，因為現在政治工作者基本上也都在經營自己的頻道、自己的社群，不只政治，各行各業其實都是一樣的。我們可以從一些很客觀的數字來看，譬如說這個圖，你請圭賢代言的影片，一個月前觀看次數是1,049次，概念上應該請我代言也不只1,049，而且我還不用收費，我的意思就是說該檢討啦！左邊是星級旅館的影片，觀看次數有4.5萬，感覺起來還不錯，但是只有看觀看次數，我們也都知道嘛！大家都內行人，那個找機器人、網軍點一點，次數就可以飆高，這個不是我們要的，所以我們會再搭配譬如說留言數。下一頁你看左邊是韓國觀光公社，他請韓國叫做國民男友朴寶劍代言的影片，你可以看得到幾萬次是基本，然後最高還可以到1.3億次。當然人口不一樣，韓國是5,000萬人，所以也不能夠完全用這個來看，但是明顯至少他的數字比較合理一點；其他像我們觀光署裡面的影片，你可以看他相對其實就不多，甚至也有幾百次，譬如說我剛剛講圭賢1,049，旁邊這個叫做佳穎，才729次，其實都是很明顯的數字有很不合理的地方。去年找許光漢代言，觀看次數就有破百萬；找泰國明星來代言的觀看次數有20萬次，這個應該也算不錯啦！再來就是韓國經紀公司的社群平臺。","我剛剛講過，從這些數字來看，觀光署應該要好好的管理。我今天來不是要檢討，因為這個數字沒有一定，點閱很高也不見得怎麼樣，我們會講合理的是按讚數跟留言數要有一定程度的比例，你按讚50萬留言3則，這個一定是灌的，這個你們大家大概問一下觀光署裡面的年輕同仁，他們平常有在使用社群平臺應該就可以知道。換言之，觀光署應該對這些投入，譬如說投入圭賢、投入哪一個影星，我都沒意見，你們去找適當的人，但每一年都應該要有這樣的檢討，對於投入效果的檢討，甚至不用到年底，年中就應該好好的檢討，譬如說這個到底是他不認真在推，就是代言的那一個人沒有很認真，他自己也有社群平臺，他自己的社群平臺可能都比我們高非常的多，可是他代言我們的影片是通路有問題，還是因為我們沒有在YouTube下廣告？因為YouTube下廣告其實就是觸及率會比較高嘛！所以到底是什麼原因一定要好好的檢討出來。次長，這樣你懂我意思嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，非常認同，我們投入的經費都要確認用在對的地方。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以我把它整理出來。最後我有一個事情也讓你們參考一下，我們如果來做一個比較，我們辦公室整理一下關於韓國觀光公社，你看他的國際策略，其實他不只是除了我剛剛講的KPI檢討、到底什麼原因、該怎麼做，你看更重要的是，他把社群平臺當成主要的媒體平臺，同時他投資高質量的內容。更重要的是，他的內容本身就是高質量的娛樂產業，然後觀眾是主動搜尋及分享。也就是說除了事後KPI的檢討，你們怎麼與網紅或者代言的明星合作，其實內容的討論更重要，或者怎麼持續讓他變成可以增加，而不是事後說他沒有用，你就換一個，就是從內容的投入應該就要開始。因為時間的關係，這個我會後會給你們參考，我覺得你們這些行銷費用必須錢要花在刀口上，要做一些有用的事情，好不好？次長，我今天因為時間關係，我就講到這裡。"],["林次長國顯：是，非常謝謝委員指教。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來再請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}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林政次好 政次請那個那個署長是不舒服是吧 陳署長你不舒服 來黃副署長起來但是署長你要聽喔署長之前有跟本席報告他流感所以這幾天比較不舒服沒關係啦但是因為決策還是你要負責還是要聽一下黃委員早好"},{"start":34.394,"end":47.354,"text":"市長你們的報告我都看了每年的報告都差不多啦跟你們講這些政策也沒有用每一個立法院一直在談一直在談從"},{"start":49.608,"end":65.774,"text":"近來觀光的人數從1200到1000又下降900一直降 一直降但是這裡面有凸顯一個問題也就是我們出國的人數"},{"start":67.188,"end":90.898,"text":"上次我已經講過為什麼他不回來為什麼他不想來問題就是因為他不能去吸引他再回來的感覺所以為什麼我們的國人都要出國去說實在的你們還敢講什麼希望工程光光立國說實在的這不要再講了什麼光光立國"},{"start":92.901,"end":108.617,"text":"都沒有一個基礎然後沒有一個創新那怎麼會去光光立果呢好 所以我常主張這樣啦因為當然因為署長也剛上任了幾個月那說實在的"},{"start":110.235,"end":128.929,"text":"苛責你們也沒有什麼意義但是最起碼的話民意代表就是要提醒你們在觀光如何去做改進跟如何去做精進這是非常重要的所以我特別強調任何事情"},{"start":130.771,"end":156.968,"text":"小問題解決大問題就沒有可是問題現在我們小問題都沒有辦法解決當然是有大問題嘛所以你像剛才我們洪孟楷 昭緯所講的這是1比1或者5比1我跟你講喔如果我們觀光業的這些移工是1比1我坦白跟你講勞工絕對是抗議你們的"},{"start":158.547,"end":184.605,"text":"因為營造業是一個國家建設這麼重要他都沒有一比一他都沒有一比一所以這個我在想特別陳署長還有黃副署長要特別去注意該爭取的還是要爭取適度事辦讓他們可以引進但是是在保障勞工的情況之下"},{"start":185.345,"end":210.961,"text":"要去做適度的調整這個是合情合理那如果是一比一我認為是比例太高這個我要特別提供給各位來做參考好來唉我要談這些啊當然看起來也就是我們理管業的管理辦法也就是一定要去管理不要以為這是小事就是很簡單就是"},{"start":215.1,"end":236.443,"text":"過境過境就不管如同去縱容所以你知不知道在台中裡面我們消保處集合21家的旅館業只有11家只有11家在緩真空管理的部分合格"},{"start":237.614,"end":249.424,"text":"其他都不合格可是你們檢查21家都是不合格請問一下在這個部分你們怎麼做管理來黃副署長你們做什麼管理"},{"start":251.198,"end":274.3,"text":"這部分有跟縣市政府合作後續可能部分我們針對於稽核的部分去加強因為有些市長是合作的部分或許他們在稽核的部分做得不好有發現這個問題我想我們這個頻率的部分後續可以來加強好啦黃副市長還有林市長我要坦白跟你講你們不是有每一年要離管業的考評嗎"},{"start":275.711,"end":304.025,"text":"你們都不把這一項把它放進去他怎麼會去認真做啦所以這個就很簡單你們的考評制度裡面就有瑕疵你要他們做的就把它放在這裡你這裡不能得到五分不能得到三分我最起碼的話我就是給你扣分那你扣分的時候因為旅館業不管怎麼樣在整個國際裡面他還是需要你們的認證啊"},{"start":305.973,"end":328.495,"text":"所以這個部分 市長你的看法怎麼樣報告委員非常認同那基本上這個反增洪管理應該是每個旅館大小旅館都要做的事情所以我想跟您報告交通部應該會要求各個旅館都要執行反增洪管理然後由觀光署來跟縣市政府做稽查集合的動作才行"},{"start":329.075,"end":352.677,"text":"因為隱私錢嘛這個不是只有針對有什麼其他的想法最起碼人在隱私錢尤其是單身女性進了旅館或民宿她在住宿的時候說實在的她的隱私非常重要那為什麼我們行政單位我們可以做得到為什麼"},{"start":353.618,"end":380.406,"text":"不做所以我建議我也同意市長就是慢慢把它改進納入正軌我想在督導會比較好一點另外就是因為人數的問題剛剛宏昭召委已經講得很清楚也就是大家喜歡出國入境的很少我們出境到9月底我想我的數據是你們給我的我們出境是1000多萬人"},{"start":383.356,"end":402.385,"text":"可是入境只有400多萬人那為什麼這個嫌疏會這麼大當然不要講國際的匯率問題等等這個都是在騙自己啦我們就是要檢討因為我們就是沒有辦法讓所有人又牽涉到整個政策這個對岸"},{"start":405.146,"end":422.438,"text":"你也沒有要開放讓他們觀光所以等等這些當然做起來就會很困難那我也希望我們要去注意到這個問題注意到這個問題所以另外一個也就是特別這個房價的問題我發現到房價的問題"},{"start":425.775,"end":451.247,"text":"當然啦 因為最近這個演唱會的產業不管是台北也好 高雄也好大家都在拼嘛大家在拼產業嘛那這個我們當然要肯定它啦兩邊的政府不管是台北市政府或者高雄市政府這個是一件好事也可以促進觀光這個我們基本上我們是全力支持但是不要忘了也就是我們這裡有一個問題 下一張"},{"start":453.8,"end":474.287,"text":"你看一看喔房價豐台到十倍把所有旅客當成盤子來看一下我們到底在這個部分喔你看喔有幾家喔只要演唱會他十倍的禮會接下來"},{"start":475.734,"end":500.45,"text":"也有9.8說實在的像這種東西不是在坑這些消費者嗎人家去消費看演唱會你們這些我跟你講喔這些只有台北市喔我想高雄也有但是我數據裡面是台北市來黃副署長陳署長你們看一下這個怎麼管理這個怎麼管理"},{"start":504.646,"end":524.781,"text":"這部分我們有關房價是有如果超過核定房價被我們結合出來的部分是有相關的嗎黃副市長本來原來喔原來是1240塊那假日他稍微調升一下是3695塊這很奇怪演唱會就變成13838塊請問一下有沒有超過你們的限定的價錢 有沒有"},{"start":533.271,"end":538.552,"text":"有立法委員質疑這些事情你們叫做有所作為一定要去下所有公文拜託地方政府轉達這些這個叫做"},{"start":560.978,"end":589.215,"text":"誠信的欺騙老百姓欺騙消費者這是違反公平教育法有演唱會他就是這樣這對消費者是沒有保障你想一想既然這麼小的問題我們都管理不好請問一下我們如何去推觀光立國啊所以我要拜託我們觀光署雖然這些自由市場但是千萬要保障消費者"},{"start":590.188,"end":613.067,"text":"所以你不能因為為了這些演唱會的產業結果房間訂不到沒有關係但是你有稍微調價是在合理調價範圍你不能把人家當成凱智嘛所以這是對人民對消費者是沒有保障的所以我要拜託我們"},{"start":614.369,"end":635.667,"text":"署長還有副署長你們要特別去注意這些光光要做要合情合理的價錢所以我在台灣一萬三千八百多塊我去住你知道我到日本去日本是最貴的我到國外去韓國去你知道我要住多少天嗎"},{"start":636.96,"end":650.505,"text":"你們去看看人家國際啦韓國啊 理數業最高最高的檔級不會超過三千塊啦我們是一萬多塊請問一下 當然大家都往國外跑啊"},{"start":651.67,"end":671.424,"text":"我就出一個機票我吃也便宜住也便宜那我們在台灣國內旅遊所以國內旅遊為什麼打不出來問題在這裡問題在這裡所以我要拜託我們署長還有次長特別要去監督一下不要把消費者當成凱子這是非常重要的"},{"start":673.104,"end":698.21,"text":"謝謝謝謝非常謝謝您提醒那這個案例跟相關的室友我想我們會要求各縣市政府要去做查核第二個呢如果違規依照這個發展觀光條例處一萬以上五萬以下的罰款該划的還是要划對那我們也要呼籲各縣政府不要不要不要放任務因為避免殺雞取卵好避免這些旅館業者造成旅客負面的效果好謝謝市長好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時49分）謝謝主席。請林國顯政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["林委員國成：陳署長，你是不舒服嗎？黃副署長起來，但是署長你要聽喔！"],["主席：署長之前有跟本席報告他得流感，所以這幾天比較不舒服。"],["林委員國成：沒關係啦，但是因為決策還是你要負責，還是要聽一下。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["林委員國成：次長，你們的報告我都看了，每一年的報告都差不多，跟你們講這些政策也沒有用。每一屆立法院都一直在談，近來觀光人數從1,200萬到1,000萬，又下降到900萬，一直降、一直降，這裡面凸顯一個問題，也就是出國的人數。上次我已經講過，為什麼他不回來？為什麼他不想來？問題就是因為沒有能吸引他再回來的感覺。為什麼國人都要出國？你們還敢講什麼希望工程、觀光立國，說實在的，這不要再講了。什麼觀光立國？根本都沒有基礎，也沒有創新，怎麼能觀光立國呢？","因為署長才剛上任幾個月，說實在的，苛責你們也沒有什麼意義，但是最起碼的話，民意代表就是要提醒你們如何改進、精進觀光，這是非常重要的，所以我特別強調，不論任何事情，小問題解決，大問題就沒有，可是問題是現在小問題都沒有辦法解決，當然會有大問題嘛。像剛才洪孟楷召委所講的，這是1比1或者5比1，如果觀光業的移工是1比1，我坦白跟你講，勞工絕對是抗議你們的，因為營造業對國家建設多麼重要都沒有1比1，所以陳署長還有黃副署長要特別注意，該爭取的還是要爭取，適度試辦讓他們可以引進，但是是在保障勞工的情況之下要適度的調整，這個是合情合理。如果是1比1，我認為比例太高，這個我要特別提供給各位參考。","接著我要談的是旅館業的管理辦法，也就是一定要去管理，不要以為這是小事就很簡單。事過境遷不管如同縱容，你知不知道消保處稽核21家旅館業，只有11家在反針孔管理的部分合格，其他都不合格，也就是你們檢查21家，有一半都是不合格。請問一下，這個部分你們怎麼管理？黃副署長，你們做什麼管理？"],["黃副署長勢芳：這部分有跟縣市政府合作，後續我們會針對稽核的部分加強，因為有些事實上是合作，或許他們在稽核的部分做得不好，有發現這個問題，我想我們的頻率後續可以來加強……"],["林委員國成：黃副署長，還有林次長，我要坦白跟你講，你們不是每一年都有旅館業的考評嗎？你們都不把這一項放進去，他怎麼會認真做？這個很簡單，你們的考評制度裡面就有瑕疵，你要他們做的就把它放在這裡，讓他在這裡不能得到5分或不能得到3分，最起碼就是可以扣分，因為旅館業不管怎麼樣在國際上還是希望得到你們的認證，所以這個部分次長的看法怎麼樣？"],["林次長國顯：非常認同。基本上，反針孔管理應該是每個大小旅館都要做的事情，所以交通部應該會要求各個旅館都要執行反針孔管理，由觀光署跟縣市政府進行稽查、稽核才對。"],["林委員國成：因為這是隱私權，並不是有什麼其他的想法，最起碼是人家的隱私權，尤其單身女性到旅館或民宿住宿的時候，說實在的，他的隱私非常重要，既然行政單位可以做得到，為什麼不做呢？我也同意次長說的，慢慢把它改進、納入正軌，再督導會比較好一點。","另外就是人數的問題，剛剛洪召委已經講得很清楚，也就是大家喜歡出國，但入境的很少。我的數據是你們給我的，到9月底出境是一千多萬人，可是入境只有四百多萬人，為什麼懸殊會這麼大？當然不要講國際的匯率問題等等，這些都是在騙自己，我們就是要檢討，因為我們就是沒有辦法讓所有人……又牽涉到整個政策，你也沒有要開放讓對岸來觀光，由於種種因素，當然做起來就會很困難。我也希望你們要注意到這個問題。","另外一個是我發現到房價的問題，最近演唱會經濟發威，不管是臺北也好、高雄也好，大家都在拚產業，我們當然要肯定。兩邊的政府，不管是臺北市政府或者高雄市政府，這是一件好事，也可以促進觀光，基本上我們是全力支持，但是不要忘了，這裡有一個問題。你看看房價哄抬到10倍，把所有旅客當成盤子。你看有幾家只要有演唱會就漲10倍的旅宿費，也有9.8倍的。說實在的，像這種東西不就是在坑這些消費者嗎？人家去消費、看演唱會，我跟你講，這些只有臺北市，我想高雄也有，但我的數據是臺北市。黃副署長、陳署長，你們看一下這個怎麼管理？"],["黃副署長勢芳：如果房價超過核定房價，被我們稽核出來的部分有相關罰則。"],["林委員國成：原來是1,240塊，假日稍微調升一下是3,695塊，很奇怪！有演唱會就變成1萬3,838塊，請問一下，有沒有超過你們限定的價錢？10倍！"],["黃副署長勢芳：各旅館的核定房價並沒有一致，如果有查到超過核定房價……因為平日的房價可能是有打折……"],["林委員國成：沒有！黃副署長、陳署長，有立法委員質疑這些事情，你們就要有所作為，一定要下公文，拜託地方政府轉達。這個叫做不誠信的欺騙老百姓、欺騙消費者，這是違反公平交易法。有演唱會，他就這樣，這對消費者沒有保障。你想一想，竟然連這麼小的問題，你們都管理不好，請問一下，我們如何推動觀光立國？我要拜託觀光署，雖然是自由市場，但是千萬要保障消費者。因為這些演唱會，結果訂不到房間，沒有關係，但是稍微調價應該落在合理範圍，不能把人家當成凱子，這對人民、消費者是沒有保障的，所以我要拜託署長及副署長特別注意這些。觀光要做，價錢要合情合理，在臺灣住宿要一萬三千八百多塊，你知道我到日本，日本是最貴的，我到國外、到韓國，你知道我要住多少天嗎？你們去看看人家國際，韓國旅宿業最高的等級不會超過3,000塊，我們是一萬多塊，當然大家都往國外跑，我就出一張機票，我吃也便宜、住也便宜，反觀我們在臺灣國內旅遊……所以國內旅遊為什麼打不出來？問題在這裡，所以我要拜託署長還有次長特別要去監督一下，不要把消費者當成凱子，這是非常重要的，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是，報告委員，非常謝謝您的提醒。這個案例跟相關事由，我們會要求各縣市政府要去查核；第二個，如果違規，依照發展觀光條例處1萬以上5萬以下的罰款。"],["林委員國成：該罰的還是要罰，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：我們也要呼籲各縣市政府不要放任這種……避免殺雞取卵，避免這些旅館業者造成旅客負面的效果。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來再請蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","林國成","蔡其昌","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","林俊憲","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","賴惠員","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","邱志偉","游顥","牛煦庭","葉元之","林德福","徐巧芯","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「900萬國際旅客達標情形及旅宿業歇業缺工情形振\n興改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通部觀光署署長就「配合賴清\n德總統所提『國家希望工程』與『觀光立國2030年觀光兆元產業』等目標如何務實達成」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00003"}}},{"id":"164886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/480bc0daa4347f008c6a0b4209a79af6d0f4389371b7337b7858943a6a9958c97928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:19 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主席謝謝 麻煩請次長跟觀光署署長好 林次長還有陳署長好 次長署長 剛聽了快三十分鐘這個美化的數字啦 但我們還是要看一下實際的問題我先請教次長跟署長 最近一次我們非公務的觀光旅遊是在哪邊 國內還是國外去哪裡"},{"start":31.246,"end":53.087,"text":"非公務啊 非公務啊總是有放假嗎 我們十月放了三次的三天連假有沒有出去走走國內嘛 國內 國內到處有啦 國外沒有 去了哪裡國內就是周邊山區周邊山區 沒有過夜連市長都不過夜了 那我們怎麼有辦法帶動國旅 來 署長我們要負責孰運 好 來 署長"},{"start":57.475,"end":75.34,"text":"我上任之後應該沒有所謂自己的時間沒有所謂自己的時間應該是週六日都是公務行程好 那有在哪裡有去旅遊過夜過嗎最近一次是上個禮拜去台東台東 OK好 署長上任多久了"},{"start":76.496,"end":95.449,"text":"6月27號的現在將近四個月四個月嘛好那其實本席今天為什麼會排這個專案報告我們重點還是要面對問題才能解決問題通篇沒有看到我們現在的問題如果說外國人或說一般不知道的人看到我們今天的報告還以為我們今天今年的觀光順差"},{"start":97.901,"end":126.264,"text":"旺盛但事實是去年我們觀光逆差差了將近900萬人那到目前為止1到9月我們現在觀光逆差有多少目前的觀光逆差確實還是有在慢慢還是有在成長大概是1比2點多是吧現在有數字嗎來現在觀光逆差有多少現在大概是出入竟差805萬人次"},{"start":127.796,"end":143.072,"text":"八百零五萬到幾月的時候到九月底那我們去年差快將近九百萬那今年現在到九月差了八百零五萬那只剩最後三個月署長你是要創紀錄是不是"},{"start":145.306,"end":164.54,"text":"創觀光逆差的紀錄去年已經快要900萬我們已經認為是說這是一個很大的警訊因為首次將近快900萬的觀光逆差那現在1到9月你跟我們講是說已經805萬了只差不到100萬就要突破去年的數字來 署長"},{"start":166.978,"end":184.291,"text":"跟委員報告其實國人出國基本上也是對我們的收入是有幫助的所以現在又要再美化說這是什麼經濟表現亮眼所以我們有能力出國是好事不是第二個是說其實出國並不影響到他的國內旅遊"},{"start":187.825,"end":205.014,"text":"會不影響國內旅遊我第一次聽到這個可能會算是一個創新的說法一個同仁一個我們的連假三天連假 五天連假只要有連假國人如果選擇沒有留在國內旅遊而是出國旅遊他就只會一次消費"},{"start":205.914,"end":227.498,"text":"那不是在國內留就在國外旅遊那為什麼大家不願意留在國內旅遊這是一個問題另外怎麼樣吸引更多觀光客過來台灣旅遊這是另外一個問題但很顯然你這兩個問題都沒有去面對問題解決問題啊來我先請教一下你認為四個月上任到目前為止國旅最大的問題在哪裡"},{"start":230.058,"end":256.178,"text":"國旅其實大家不是沒有進行國旅像今年上半年的國旅呢就已經又超過去年只是現在目前國旅的問題他是不留宿他不留宿就是當日來回或區域發展是所以連次長他也都沒有去住宿嘛對不對好來我現在就問的是為什麼國人不留宿現在你上任四個月了也不是新手了那告訴我們國旅現在你看到最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":257.881,"end":277.534,"text":"第一個台灣的交通真的也很方便這是第一個第二個呢確實國人也覺得我們的住宿費是比較貴的住宿比較貴對 住宿比較貴那第三個是因為國人是不太請假不太平日去旅遊所以我們的平日跟我們的週末日的"},{"start":278.334,"end":306.263,"text":"的住宿的部分相對的擁擠比如說週末日的住宿真的相對的擁擠平日就相對的比較比較少所以我們才會提明年度的計畫希望去解決平日大家來署長所以你也要感謝在野黨的委員真的要幫我們勞工爭取四家一天假不然就像你剛講的國人他也不願意請假的話你根本沒有時間來去做國旅來有沒有看到最近連假的時候"},{"start":307.003,"end":335.852,"text":"有網路上很多針對國旅的討論包括說從機場看國旅真的是很慘說來台灣都是轉機沒有留真的留在台灣的只有五位外國人剩下全部都轉機去他其他國家再來有沒有看到最近也有看那個士林夜市有爆發那現在西門町商圈又爆發說南韓的姐妹來台灣旅遊點水果兩個水果被收取了830塊"},{"start":338.083,"end":365.709,"text":"有沒有看到這新聞所以服務品質可能沒有辦法很佳然後再加上是說有一些不孝的業者我相信99%業者是良善的但有一些不孝業者如果說在這個時候還殺雞取卵故意坑殺這個外國觀光客那這樣很有可能就會造成我們台灣的印象不好那以及飯店還有突然提出來是說我要大家自備大浴巾"},{"start":370.047,"end":396.426,"text":"來一次性的備品網路上大家也講就是說我們有出國的經驗國際現在也有針對節能減碳的提供備品的方式但是如同日本網友的留言以及旅遊的經驗就講說日本的很多旅店他可能是在一樓備品給大家自由領取而不是放在房間裡面你需要的人拿但現在台灣變成是在這一個一次性備品上面好像已經是"},{"start":398.188,"end":425.454,"text":"動輒得救所以變成是說我現在全都不提供然後如果說有提供的話還要大家加價購買甚至還有旅店就直接講是說包裝水大浴巾我不提供然後網路上的批評說好像台灣很窮署長那現在又面臨到你剛剛給我們的一個數據到1到9月已經過了四分之三的年805萬的逆差那最後這一個月最後這三個月"},{"start":426.581,"end":455.371,"text":"我們有辦法彌補這個逆差還是我們會持續的擴大我看起來很悲觀跟委員報告我台灣會一直持續的有出國的部分包含是我們現在出國相對的便宜因為匯率的關係所以這件事情在今年短時間我覺得應該還是會往前這樣走的所以改善不了所以現在觀光署署長已經告訴我們就是今年觀光一定是逆差"},{"start":456.795,"end":470.045,"text":"然後原因是因為我們現在匯率那沒有啊相對日本來講我們匯率是相對比較高啊是因為日本匯率低啊可是相對其他的國家我們其實沒有比較優勢啊但是我們出國便宜啊"},{"start":472.099,"end":500.3,"text":"你講什麼不是我是說因為這樣的關係所以像台灣跟台幣跟日幣比的話所以台灣還是跑日本跑得很多的原因是因為這樣所以我們到最後今天的討論重點我今天排的這專案報告就到最後重點是我們怪因為日本的匯率太低台灣人喜歡日本所以我們雙手一攤那這樣交通部觀光署就不用升格啦之前觀光局就好了觀光局的時候我們利差還沒有那麼多耶"},{"start":504.856,"end":515.296,"text":"我覺得今天我對事不對人我知道你身體不舒服但我看到這個專案報告之後我覺得沒有辦法接受的是我們通篇都在美化數字耶"},{"start":517.011,"end":536.911,"text":"好像我們活在不同的時空環境好像網路上的討論跟國旅對於國旅的抱怨或是國旅的我們的期待跟要求我們沒有任何一個官員有看到這樣的一個事實然後結果給我們這個報告你今天這個報告在奇聞共賞一下如果說放在網路上我覺得大家會更生氣跟難過"},{"start":539.588,"end":567.862,"text":"大家都知道國旅的問題結果沒有一個報告今天我特別排了一個專案報告今天八個委員會裡面有三個委員會質詢而已啊為什麼要那麼認真就是我們認為是說這個東西跟民生消費有很大關係飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲運輸業者都是我們的民生消費能夠帶動好那才是最重要但就你們今天通篇美化文章"},{"start":569.278,"end":573,"text":"好棒棒我只是沒有要求大家跟你們拍手委員我們沒有不關心國旅的部分署長你今天的報告就是讓大家沒有看到你看到問題跟試圖想要解決問題的誠意跟態度我覺得這才是問題委員我們光看到今年上半年跟下半年的連續假期因為今年下半年連續假期也多嘛"},{"start":598.294,"end":621.966,"text":"那今年上半年的連續假期的住房率大概在49%那今年下半年的住房率呢現在是在58%是有成長9%所以我認為這件事情是有在Getting better的要用這種冷冰冰的數字喔那我剛就一開始我開宗明義就講了就是今年的觀光逆差就是805萬"},{"start":624.155,"end":638.881,"text":"會看起來會超過去年的觀光逆差會不會突破千萬不知道但這對於台灣觀光來講這絕不是一個光榮的數字最後我只請教那個缺工的問題之前5月就已經講就說"},{"start":640.982,"end":666.39,"text":"旅宿業要開放移工但是一直沒有問到詳細的狀況結果我們今天排了這個專案報告之後馬上今天行政院會就說要通過中階勞工開放能夠旅宿業怎麼那麼巧之前我們要問資料這個都問不到那結果現在我排了一個專案報告馬上今天同時間行政院會就通過這一條"},{"start":671.024,"end":700.183,"text":"是心電感應不是五月的時候是不是就講了那時候你還不是署長五月的時候前任署長來那時候就說要研議跟勞動部最快速度辦理我們那時候也講說那你要先照顧本國勞工真的沒有辦法你要開放要適度的開放並且你的辦法措施什麼都要出來就過去這四五個月要問問資料問不到勞動部問不到就說研議中研議中就今天排這個專案報告"},{"start":701.587,"end":730.292,"text":"就那麼巧行政院同時間就說今天行政院會要通過那我請教現在要開放所謂中階勞工它的範圍是什麼中階勞工的定義是什麼它的範圍未來它是協助旅宿業的房屋房屋跟清潔櫃台有沒有櫃台沒有櫃台沒有在房屋裡面確定"},{"start":731.28,"end":742.404,"text":"因為我之前有看到資料是說櫃台有包括我想要確認是說未來開放之後有沒有會不會我們國人去國旅以後看到我們check in的同仁櫃台是外籍人士來服務可以請同事補充說明嗎中介技術人力的部分你看我覺得這"},{"start":756.571,"end":782.213,"text":"這就最大問題就過去我們想要請教說你的辦法到底是什麼勞動部推觀光交通部推勞動部然後沒有給我們相關資料然後我真的排了專案報告之後今天行政院就說他要通過了然後現在照理講通過了你們應該有準備你們應該計劃已經成熟了可以一起來講跟委員補充報告剛剛再更新一下就是櫃台跟餐飲也有所以有四個項目"},{"start":787.357,"end":790.633,"text":"30秒前你跟我讲没有我没有掌握"},{"start":792.335,"end":819.876,"text":"那這方案到底有沒有保障我們本國勞工啊有有這個會不會30秒後有跟我講沒有這個來來回回因為開了很多次會議然後我們就是因為開了很多次會議所以說本席也想要問相關資料但問不到那還有更重要的是你們今天到現在為止到底掌握多少以及旅宿業到底知不知道說你今天開放的動作是什麼還有我們勞動團體勞工團體知不知道說開放東西是什麼"},{"start":826.286,"end":854.554,"text":"會後請今天也已經宣布了會後給本席相關的資料以及你們要怎麼樣跟所有的旅宿業者在座溝通還有掌握未來我們的本土勞工因為本席看到新聞資料是說你們是一聘一這是新聞資料從新聞資料看到我們立法委員要質詢居然是要從新聞資料才看到這個新聞"},{"start":856.547,"end":876.111,"text":"你們是一聘一本勞有一個你們才可以聘一個外勞而且是中介勞工但是他服務範圍到底是什麼以及未來會不會我們的國旅遇到的這個check in的人員是外籍人員那還有這樣有沒有辦法真真正正能夠如同你剛剛講的問題核心房屋的價格"},{"start":879.369,"end":905.649,"text":"羊毛出在羊身上但如果說我們政府都已經協助做專案了能夠來降低他的人力成本不要再抱怨缺工了那房價還是一個晚上那麼的高定在那邊讓大家覺得是說我與其不如我就出國玩了那這樣國慮只會越來越慘這都環環相扣的本席對是不對人但是專題報告要的就是你們面對問題解決問題不是美化"},{"start":906.789,"end":909.678,"text":"你要化妝的話回家化妝不用來國會殿堂化妝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時33分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請次長跟觀光署署長。"],["主席：林次長還有陳署長。"],["林次長國顯：召委早。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長、署長。剛剛聽了快30分鐘、這個美化的數字，但我們還是要看一下實際的問題。我先請教次長跟署長，最近一次非公務的觀光旅遊是在哪邊、國內還是國外？去了哪裡？"],["林次長國顯：非公務……"],["洪委員孟楷：非公務的，總是有放假，10月放了3次的3天連假，有沒有出去走走？"],["林次長國顯：國內嗎？國內到處有啦，國外沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：去了哪裡？"],["林次長國顯：國內就是周邊山區走一走。"],["洪委員孟楷：周邊山區，沒有過夜？"],["林次長國顯：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：連次長都不過夜了，那我們怎麼有辦法帶動國旅！"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我們要負責疏運。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長。"],["陳署長玉秀：我上任之後應該沒有所謂自己的時間，應該週六、日都是公務行程。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有在哪裡曾去旅遊過夜嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：最近一次是上個禮拜去臺東。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺東，好。署長上任多久了？"],["陳署長玉秀：6月27號到現在將近4個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席今天為什麼會排這個專案報告？我們重點還是要面對問題，才能解決問題。通篇沒有看到我們現在的問題，如果外國人或一般不知道的人看到今天的報告，還以為我們今年的觀光順差旺盛啊！但事實是去年我們觀光逆差就差了將近900萬人。到目前為止，1到9月，我們現在觀光逆差有多少？"],["陳署長玉秀：目前的觀光逆差確實慢慢……還是有在成長，大概是一比二點多，是吧……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有數字嗎？現在觀光逆差有多少？"],["陳署長玉秀：現在大概是出入境差805萬人次。"],["洪委員孟楷：到幾月的時候？"],["陳署長玉秀：到9月底。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們去年差了將近900萬，而今年到9月差了805萬，只剩最後3個月。署長，你是要創紀錄，是不是？創觀光逆差的紀錄。去年快要900萬，我們已經認為這是一個很大的警訊，因為首次將近有快900萬的觀光逆差，那現在1到9月，你跟我們講已經805萬了，只差不到100萬就要突破去年的數字！"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，其實國人出國基本上也對我們的收入是有幫助的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在又要再美化說這是什麼經濟表現亮眼，所以我們有能力出國是好事？"],["陳署長玉秀：不是，第二個是，其實出國並不影響到他的國內旅遊。"],["洪委員孟楷：會不影響國內旅遊？"],["陳署長玉秀：是，據我們調查研究……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們第一次聽到，這可能算是一個創新的說法！"],["陳署長玉秀：這個是我們去年……"],["洪委員孟楷：3天連假、5天連假，只要有連假，國人如果選擇沒有留在國內旅遊，而是出國旅遊，他就只會一次消費嘛！不是在國內旅遊就是在國外旅遊。為什麼大家不願意留在國內旅遊？這是一個問題。另外，怎麼樣吸引更多的觀光客過來臺灣旅遊？這是另外一個問題。但很顯然你就這兩個問題，都沒有去面對問題、解決問題。","我先請教一下，上任4個月，你認為到目前為止國旅最大的問題在哪裡？"],["陳署長玉秀：其實大家不是沒有進行國旅，像今年上半年的國旅就已經又超過去年，只是目前國旅的問題，他是不留宿，當日來回或……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以連次長也都沒有去住宿，對不對？我現在就問，為什麼國人不留宿？你上任4個月了，也不是新手了，那告訴我們，對於國旅，現在你看到的最大問題是什麼？"],["陳署長玉秀：第一個，臺灣的交通真的也很方便。第二個，確實國人也覺得我們的住宿費是比較貴的。"],["洪委員孟楷：住宿比較貴。"],["陳署長玉秀：對，住宿比較貴。第三個，因為國人不太請假、不太平日去旅遊，所以我們的平日跟週末日的住宿部分，比如週末日的住宿真的相對地擁擠，平日就相對地比較少，所以我們才會提明年度的計畫，希望去解決平日大家……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你也要感謝在野黨委員，真的要幫勞工爭取4+1天假，不然就像你剛剛講的，國人也不願意請假的話，根本沒有時間做國旅。","有沒有看到最近連假的時候，網路上有很多針對國旅的討論？包括說從機場看國旅真的是很慘，說來臺灣都是轉機，真的留在臺灣的只有5位外國人，剩下的全部都轉機去其他國家。","再來，最近士林夜市有爆發，而現在西門町商圈也爆發南韓的姐妹來臺灣旅遊點水果，2個水果被收取830塊，有沒有看到這則新聞？所以服務品質可能沒辦法極佳，再加上有一些不肖業者，我相信99%的業者是良善的，但有一些不肖業者如果在這個時候還殺雞取卵、故意坑殺外國觀光客，這樣很有可能就會造成對臺灣的印象不好。","以及飯店還有突然提出來，要大家自備大浴巾，一次性的備品，網路上大家講，我們也有出國的經驗，國際現在也有針對節能減碳的提供備品的方式。但如同日本，網友的留言以及旅遊的經驗就講到，日本很多旅店可能是在1樓讓大家自由領取備品，而不是放在房間裡，需要的人拿。但現在臺灣變成在一次性備品上面，好像已經是動輒得咎，所以變成我現在全都不提供，如果要提供的話，還要大家加價購買，甚至還有旅店就直接講，我不提供包裝水、大浴巾，然後網路上的批評說，好像臺灣很窮。署長，現在又面臨到你剛剛給我們的一個數據，1到9月，已經過了四分之三的年，805萬的逆差，最後這3個月我們有辦法彌補這個逆差，還是我們會持續地擴大？我看起來很悲觀啊！"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，臺灣會一直持續有出國的部分，是包含我們現在出國相對便宜，因為匯率的關係，所以這件事情在今年短時間內，我覺得應該還是會往前這樣走。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以改善不了？現在觀光署署長已經告訴我們，今年觀光一定是逆差，然後原因是我們現在匯率……"],["陳署長玉秀：其實像……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！相對日本來講，我們匯率是相對比較高，是因為日本匯率低；可是相對其他的國家，我們其實沒有比較優勢。"],["陳署長玉秀：但是我們出國便宜。"],["洪委員孟楷：你講什麼？"],["陳署長玉秀：不是，我是說因為這樣的關係，所以像臺幣跟日幣比的話，臺灣還是跑日本跑得很多的原因是因為這樣，因為現在日本……"],["洪委員孟楷：我今天排了這個專案報告，結果到最後的重點是，我們怪因為日本的匯率太低，臺灣人喜歡日本，所以我們雙手一攤。這樣交通部觀光署就不用升格啦！觀光局就好了，之前觀光局的時候，逆差還沒有那麼多耶！","今天我對事不對人，我知道你身體不舒服，但我看到這個專案報告之後，我覺得沒有辦法接受的是，你們通篇都在美化數字，好像我們活在不同的時空環境，好像網路上的討論，對於國旅的抱怨或是對於國旅的期待跟要求，沒有任何一個官員有看到這樣的事實，結果給我們這個報告。你今天這個報告再奇文共賞一下，如果放在網路上，我覺得大家會更生氣跟難過。大家都知道國旅的問題，結果沒有一個報告……今天我特別排了一個專案報告，今天8個委員會裡面只有3個委員會質詢，為什麼要那麼認真？就是因為我們認為這個東西跟民生消費有很大的關係，飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲、運輸業者都是我們的民生消費，能夠帶動好，那才是最重要，但是你們今天通篇都是在美化文章、好棒棒，我只差沒有要求大家跟你們拍手。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員，我們沒有不關心國旅，我們也在跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，你今天的報告就是沒有讓大家看到你看到問題跟試圖想要解決問題的誠意跟態度，我覺得這才是問題。"],["陳署長玉秀：委員，我們光看到今年上半年跟下半年的連續假期，因為今年下半年連續假期也多，今年上半年連續假期的住房率大概在49%，今年下半年的住房率現在是在58%，是有成長9%，所以我認為這件事情是有在getting better的。"],["洪委員孟楷：要用這種冷冰冰的數字，那我一開始開宗明義就講了，今年的觀光逆差就是805萬，看起來會超過去年的觀光逆差，會不會突破千萬不知道，但對於臺灣觀光來講，這絕對不是一個光榮的數字。","最後我只請教缺工的問題，之前5月就已經講旅宿業要開放移工，但是一直沒有問到詳細的狀況，結果我們今天排了這個專案報告之後，今天行政院會馬上就說要通過開放旅宿業能夠引進中階勞工。怎麼那麼巧？之前我們要問資料，這個都問不到，結果今天我排了一個專案報告，馬上今天同時間行政院會就通過這一條，是心電感應嗎？不是，5月的時候是不是就講了？那時候你還不是署長，5月的時候前任署長來，那時候就說要研議，跟勞動部以最快速度來辦理。我們那時候也說，那你要先照顧本國勞工，真的沒有辦法，你要開放，要適度的開放，並且你的辦法、措施什麼都要出來。結果過去這4、5個月，要問資料問不到，勞動部問不到，就說研議中、研議中。結果今天排這個專案報告，就那麼巧，行政院同時間就說，今天行政院會要通過。我請教，現在要開放所謂中階勞工，它的範圍是什麼？中階勞工的定義是什麼？它的範圍，未來它是協助旅宿業的房務、room service……"],["陳署長玉秀：房務跟清潔。"],["洪委員孟楷：櫃檯有沒有？"],["陳署長玉秀：櫃檯沒有，櫃檯不在範圍內。"],["洪委員孟楷：櫃檯沒有在房務裡面？確定？因為我之前有看到資料是說櫃檯有包括，我想要確認的是，未來開放之後，我們國人去國旅，會不會以後看到check in的櫃檯是外籍人士來服務？"],["陳署長玉秀：可以請同事補充說明嗎？中階技術人力的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，我覺得這就是最大的問題，過去我們想要請教你的辦法到底是什麼？結果勞動部推觀光，交通部推勞動部，然後沒有給我們相關資料，等到我真的排了專案報告之後，今天行政院就說他要通過了。現在照理講通過了，你們應該有準備，應該計畫已經成熟了，可以一起來講。"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員補充報告，剛剛再更新一下，就是櫃檯跟餐飲也有，所以有4個項目。"],["洪委員孟楷：30秒前你跟我講沒有。"],["陳署長玉秀：是，不好意思，我沒有掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個方案到底有沒有保障我們本國勞工？"],["陳署長玉秀：有，這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會30秒後又跟我講沒有？"],["陳署長玉秀：因為這個來來回回開了很多次會議，然後我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為開了很多次會議，所以本席也想要問相關資料，但問不到，還有更重要的是，你們到現在為止到底掌握了多少，以及旅宿業到底知不知道你今天開放的動作是什麼？還有，我們勞動團體、勞工團體知不知道開放的東西是什麼？","今天也已經宣布了，會後給本席相關的資料，以及你們要怎麼樣跟所有的旅宿業者再溝通，還有掌握未來我們的本土勞工。因為本席看到的新聞資料是說，你們是一聘一，這是從新聞資料看到的，我們立法委員要質詢，居然是要從新聞資料才看到這個新聞。你們是一聘一，本勞有一個才可以聘一個外勞，而且是中階勞工，但是他服務範圍到底是什麼，以及未來會不會我們的國旅遇到的check 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- 12:26:19","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】\n【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-30","start_time":"2025-10-30T12:15:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-30T12:26:19+08:00","duration":656,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.712218750000002,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.49096875,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.95909375,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.92909375,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.713468750000004,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.12221875,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.26659375,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.19471875,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.61221875000001,"end":87.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.55721875,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.63284375,"end":95.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.04534375,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":103.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.98534375000001,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.28471875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.05659375,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.81596875000001,"end":109.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.44846875,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.44409375000001,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.89971875,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.24784375,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.25971875000002,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.92159375,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.38534375,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.27471875,"end":144.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.32534375,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.56971875000002,"end":177.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.09659375,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.28971875000002,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.70721875,"end":196.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.16471875000002,"end":214.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.54409375,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.31346875000003,"end":217.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.15284375000002,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.24534375000002,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.90346875,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.44346875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.96596875,"end":228.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.40034375000002,"end":229.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.48471875,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.23971875,"end":231.21846875000003},{"speaker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對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎"},{"start":226.988,"end":239.899,"text":"你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的"},{"start":240.612,"end":263.7,"text":"我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛"},{"start":265.04,"end":288.559,"text":"我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯"},{"start":293.403,"end":305.913,"text":"這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼"},{"start":309.444,"end":327.878,"text":"這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛"},{"start":329.019,"end":357.404,"text":"不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛"},{"start":358.484,"end":384.554,"text":"所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛"},{"start":386.494,"end":404.68,"text":"現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架"},{"start":405.552,"end":426.015,"text":"我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛"},{"start":426.215,"end":453.713,"text":"因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下"},{"start":455.233,"end":474.823,"text":"房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以"},{"start":475.384,"end":490.906,"text":"這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛"},{"start":491.892,"end":506.497,"text":"你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛"},{"start":507.315,"end":536.458,"text":"然後再來就是 現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案 總共14件主要原因是什麼 人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況"},{"start":537.359,"end":560.514,"text":"不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名"},{"start":563.232,"end":576.939,"text":"這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 那總共幾案"},{"start":585.287,"end":596.592,"text":"那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊"},{"start":598.334,"end":619.785,"text":"第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是"},{"start":621.344,"end":647.673,"text":"你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝"},{"start":652.383,"end":656.376,"text":"這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1108,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時15分）主席好。麻煩關務署、防檢署。"],["主席：關務署、防檢署。"],["葉委員元之：還有航政司。"],["主席：航政司。"],["葉委員元之：各位官員，我們今天在討論防止豬瘟、阻絕於邊境，主要是這件事情。我們先看一下豬瘟出現的地方，有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞，本席所示圖中紅色的部分是有豬瘟出現的地方，其實滿多的，不是只有中國大陸或東南亞，我們看到現在政府是在10月22日才針對中國大陸跟東南亞開始查緝其食品，但其實你可以看到9月15日，韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟，他在今年年初的時候就有了，然後到9月15日變得比較嚴重，他們調整到最高等級的嚴重。我們現在為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品，其他國家的防範機制有嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，所有非洲國家只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品，都不可以進來國內，所有的都不行。"],["葉委員元之：所有不行，我知道啊。但是政府講只針對中國跟東南亞加強。"],["杜署長麗華：沒有、沒有，是所有的。"],["葉委員元之：這新聞是中央社的報導。"],["杜署長麗華：如果針對……"],["葉委員元之：加強，其他的為什麼不加強？"],["杜署長麗華：跟委員報告，中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的棄置品，就是不管在海關，或者是在國際機場，或者是在我們的港口等等，這些棄置品裡面，我們去逐件抽驗，從檢疫物的檢疫結果，發現非洲豬瘟呈陽性的有10%，其中中國大陸還有越南，包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是比例比較高的。"],["葉委員元之：因為比例高，所以比較加強。"],["杜署長麗華：所以對他們都要特別加強。"],["葉委員元之：當然，我覺得應該是要做到滴水不漏。我們來看一個東西，就是有關於郵包的部分，因為我看到民進黨的立委吳思瑤非常重視這一塊，但他主要都是針對中國，可是實際上有一些跨境電商，你們也可以去看一下，特別到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂，哪些東西是不能下訂，國人到現在搞不太清楚，連吳思瑤都搞不清楚。我看到吳思瑤在他的貼文上面講什麼淘寶的罐頭很多，但是實際上，請問一下署長，罐頭可不可以訂購？署長，罐頭可以訂購嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：罐頭目前是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：罐頭可以嘛！但吳思瑤不知道，他以為罐頭不可以，所以他講淘寶上面有罐頭，這些都要查。你看連執政黨立委，做過幹事長的都搞不清楚了，可見其他的國人對於到底哪一些可以透過電商購買或哪些不可以，現在大家還是很混亂。我現在秀幾個給你看，這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的，像左邊這個是校洞食品豬肉湯即食調理包，請問一下這個可以進來臺灣嗎？可以嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：其實這要看製程。"],["葉委員元之：要看製程？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以光看這個圖片，署長並不能判斷嘛！你看你們兩個都要討論！"],["杜署長麗華：容我請亓副組長跟委員說明。"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告一下，罐頭食品現在樣態就是日新月異，所以其實……"],["葉委員元之：這個不是罐頭食品。"],["亓副組長隆祥：就是高溫滅菌罐製，我所謂的……"],["葉委員元之：我現在在問你，這個校洞食品豬肉湯即食調理包可不可以進來臺灣？我是問這個問題。"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告，如果這樣子的產品，它的F0值有大於等於3，達到一個商業滅菌的狀態，而且它的包裝是密閉式的……"],["葉委員元之：你不要跟我講原則，現在就是我要下單了，到底這個東西能不能進臺灣？我現在就問你嘛。"],["亓副組長隆祥：對，所以這樣子的產品，我們都會建議民眾，如果有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們，我們可以回復給他，他再下單。這樣可以幫消費者……"],["葉委員元之：所以你在電商上面看到這個東西，你覺得很好吃，你想要買，你無法判定，你都要先去問一下防檢署這可不可以進來才能確定，對不對？所以我問你右邊這兩個，你大概也不能回答了，不倒翁釜山豬血湯，這個可以進來臺灣嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：如果只看外包裝，沒有辦法直接百分之百……"],["葉委員元之：沒有辦法判定？簡報上有「含肉液態湯類」，這是指什麼？"],["亓副組長隆祥：這個就是如果它是湯類液態的含有肉品，而且它不是符合剛剛講的高溫滅菌罐製的定義……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你現在還是一直講原則，但是我現在講的是實際上消費者的狀況，消費者就是會看到這些東西，到底是可以下單還是不可以下單，他無從判定起，不是嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：對，所以我們……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼去解決這個問題？因為這就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來，因為如果是人帶進來的，你們是有宣導，他進來之前，主動詢問，如果發現不可以，交出來是免受罰，對吧？"],["亓副組長隆祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：可是如果是透過電商下訂呢？一樣，就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了，他可以講他不知道，所以不受罰嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：報告委員，所以我們都會請電商把含肉的產品下架，我們也會鼓勵民眾，如果有疑問的話，可以跟防檢局詢問，我們會……"],["葉委員元之：你說請電商把含肉食品下架？"],["亓副組長隆祥：民眾想要……"],["葉委員元之：對，但是我現在就是在跨境電商上面抓的照片，它就是沒有下架、就是可以訂，現在消費者的問題就是不知道訂來之後、花錢了以後會不會被罰，要怎麼去解決這個問題？現在問題在這裡嘛！"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，所以我們剛才有報告，我們有一些預防性的措施，包括每天都有上這個電商平臺去做關鍵字搜尋，如果發現的話，我們會請電商即時下架……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！那就是有啊！你就是做不夠啊！不然我查到的這個，因為是國外的跨境電商，你怎麼讓它下架？"],["亓副組長隆祥：我們會持續跟無店面公會等團體溝通……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！你是副組長嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：亓副組長，你講的都是口號，我現在講的是實際面，我現在講的是民眾實際會遇到的問題，你講的都是口號、都是原則，但現在原則跟實際聽起來是有極大的落差，所以會有漏洞嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，因為這段時間對我們來講真的是很關鍵期，是不是我們重新正面表列，把哪一些產品不行整理出來，快速在我們相關的媒宣上披露，讓民眾可以比對，假設想更進一步了解，可以再直接跟我們聯繫。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在要宣導說，如果大家在電商上看到連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西時，要主動詢問防檢局這可以買嗎？好，那請問一下，詢問這件事情方便嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：通常詢問要多久？比如我現在已經要下單了，只有10分鐘時間，在這10分鐘之內，我要打電話到防檢局詢問這可不可以，是嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：這樣子，我們來正面表列，讓民眾參考，但我要跟委員說明，一般高溫殺菌是121度，應該是沒有問題的。"],["葉委員元之：署長，我們現在在解決問題，這些原則我都知道，我現在講的是實務面嘛！你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂，而我問的是實務面嘛！剛剛我就具體問你，消費者要下單到底可不可以，你們也無法回答，你只講一個原則，你講的原則大家都知道，可是那個原則放到實際上就無法操作，這就是有漏洞嘛！","再來，現在東西進來了，但你們裁罰的比例很低，是不是？根據資料，111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1,320件，但只裁罰了9案，總共14件，對吧？主要原因是什麼？人手不足是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，不是。"],["葉委員元之：因為我聽你們的人私下講是因為人手不足，無法仔細調查那個案件到底是什麼狀況。"],["杜署長麗華：喔！不是，這個我可能要說明一下，在態樣上，我先說明，進來的物品絕對全部銷毀，但我們是追……"],["葉委員元之：我知道有銷毀啦！我現在是說……"],["杜署長麗華：至於人的責任部分，因為我們在查訪當事人時，很多時候他們都會說是被冒名或不知情……"],["葉委員元之：多少？1,320件裡面有多少件說是被冒名的？多少件？"],["杜署長麗華：這個還要再……"],["葉委員元之：昨天你在別的委員會備詢時，就有很多委員問到這個問題，怎麼還答不出來呢？1,320件有多少件被冒名？總不可能大家都被冒名，臺灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重喔？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這個是銷毀的，銷毀的已經有1,320件。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！那總共幾案？"],["杜署長麗華：目前裁罰的有9案。"],["葉委員元之：我知道裁罰9案，我是說總共……"],["杜署長麗華：訴訟中的有二十幾案。"],["葉委員元之：訴訟中的有二十幾案，還是很低啊！所以沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用。第一個，大家搞不清楚而下單，有很多是搞不清楚的；第二個，有可能是故意的，你們現在是裁罰故意的而已，搞不清楚跟過失的就不裁罰，對吧？"],["杜署長麗華：是、是。"],["葉委員元之：但是在搞不清楚的前端，就是我剛剛問你的，你們自己在備詢臺上也無法判斷，你都無法判斷，要消費者怎麼判斷？這一塊的問題要解決嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：好，那我們……"],["葉委員元之：如果消費者搞不清楚，花了錢，然後東西進來了，你也是讓民眾白花錢，他並不想違法，可是就因為搞不清楚，所以不小心觸法，東西他拿不到，但錢花了，我覺得這個問題要解決啦！"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們來蒐集相關樣態，做一些相對應的處置，看要如何再來加強，也保障到民眾的權益，但最重要的還是在防疫，不要成為破口或漏洞。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：好，謝謝，這個很嚴重，這個是有問題的。","接下來請張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在。","請陳瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}