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足跡總數統計已經顯示消費者物價指數連年攀升 各項生活開支不斷增加政府雖然多次調整基本工資與興奉但退休族群的年金券原地踏步 實質購買力大幅下滑對高齡退休者而言 醫療與照護支出年年增加"},{"start":1473.84,"end":1499.277,"text":"这样子的落差让大家难以维持最基本的生活品质本次修法有三个重点第一个是删除条文当中不再随在职人员薪俸调整之限制让退休俸能够重新与在职薪资联动维持公平合理第二是停止所得替代率逐年下降的机制自113年起不再适用副表三的减幅规定"},{"start":1500.077,"end":1503.862,"text":"第三是將67條當中啟動調整物價指數門檻由5%下修為3%讓物價的這個變動能夠及時反映退休的給付避免通膨侵蝕退休族群的實際所得"},{"start":1516.878,"end":1530.057,"text":"這項修法是回應人民犧牲社會經濟環境變化與恢復制度的一個公義讓貢獻一生的公務人員得以安享晚年是國家應盡的責任以上敬請支持本案競訴審議通過"},{"start":1537.281,"end":1564.106,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼至於本席所提出的公務人員推出資權撫恤法第67條的提案說明本席在這裡就先不進行提案說明等到待會主條審查的時候再一併的來討論好 那麼接下來我們就緊接著來進行討論事項那討論之前我們就先請議事人員宣讀議程中再併入審查的六案的提案條文"},{"start":1564.526,"end":1587.36,"text":"那預估宣讀時間大概兩分鐘那另外為了便利審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議的提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以利可以很快的應出發現場來進行討論如果已經有收到修正動議的話亦請一併宣讀宣讀之後我們就即刻進行討論那麼現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":1591.465,"end":1613.592,"text":"宣讀討論四項公務人員退休之前撫恤法瓜湖二十一至二十六支提案請參閱條文對照表委員廖偉翔等提案第三十七條同國民黨黨團提案委員林思明等提案第三十七條除將第五項默劇修正為因隨在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算及新增第六項"},{"start":1614.372,"end":1635.503,"text":"第二項附表三所定之替代率計算方式自中華民國一百十四年一月一日之後停止使用外其餘同線型條文委員楊秋英等提案第三十七條及委員林倩琦等提案第三十七條均同委員賴世寶等三席人提案委員廖偉翔等提案第三十八條同委員賴世寶等二十六人提案"},{"start":1636.423,"end":1664.088,"text":"委員零四名的提案第38條除將第五項默劇修正為因隨同在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算及新增第六項第二項副表3所定之替代率計算方式自中華民國114年1月1日之後停止使用外企與同現行條文委員楊瓊英等提案第38條及委員林倩琦等提案第38條均同委員賴世寶等26人提案"},{"start":1666.912,"end":1684.452,"text":"委員萬美齡等提案第六十七條除將第一項中斷的消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為達正負百分之二十或重要民生物資指數累計成長率達正負百分之二十及至少每四年修正為每三年外"},{"start":1685.994,"end":1707.048,"text":"應與檢討外其餘同線型條文委員林慶提等提案第67條除將第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為正負3%外其餘同線型條文委員翁曉琳等提案第67條公務人員退休後所領月退休金或移足所領之月付續金或移足年金給付金額"},{"start":1707.968,"end":1736.476,"text":"與中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正百分之三十應與調整或至少每四年應與調 應與檢討其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率定之調整比率不得低於消費者物價指數累計成長率之二分之一但成長率為零或複數時不予調整前項相關執行規定與本法實行細則定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":1752.505,"end":1758.147,"text":"修正統一意見修正統一第37條對照先行條文"},{"start":1759.229,"end":1781.482,"text":"第37條除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所的替代率這部分不適用之第38條對照先請條文除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後"},{"start":1783.581,"end":1809.602,"text":"逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之提案委員翁曉琳等宣讀完畢先讀修正動議二第37條對照現行條文除第三項"},{"start":1810.953,"end":1832.972,"text":"增訂後段中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低一中華民國全年全月全日修正後支付表三認定第三十八條對照對照現行條文"},{"start":1835.66,"end":1863.417,"text":"第三項 增訂後段 中華民國一百十四年以後 個年度所得替代率不再逐年降低 依中華民國全年全月全日修正之後 支付表三認定第六十七條對照現行條文修正為公務人員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領之月撫恤金或遺族年金"},{"start":1863.962,"end":1877.954,"text":"及付金額與中央主管主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%及依該成長率調整之提案人黃國昌等宣讀完畢"},{"start":1881.584,"end":1903.695,"text":"好 那麼因為剛剛陸續進場的有羅志強委員還有審發會委員那麼我們現在就先進行就請問在場委員本案是否就先進入大體討論還是直接進入逐條審查好 那這樣的話我們就先進行大體討論好 那就看看委員們有沒有 哪位要先發言 好的"},{"start":1905.521,"end":1932.633,"text":"我先會議詢問一下因為今天的版本二十幾個版本我想問一下委員會這邊以前我們都會有比較大本的那個條文對照表我不曉得我們有沒有做還是就是看這個全部就是看這個是不是那這個有附剛剛的新的案子都有但是修正動議沒有嗎對 只有修正動議因為今天臨時提了兩個修正動議但是應該內容再印發給大家好"},{"start":1935.589,"end":1943.657,"text":"好 那我們就現在先進行大體討論剛剛看到莊瑞索委員有舉手您先發言嗎是哪位好 那就先請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":1953.476,"end":1969.642,"text":"好 今天我們要排審的我剛剛算了一下大概有26個提案那聚焦在三個條文跟副表那這是當然是社會非常關切的"},{"start":1970.262,"end":1989.935,"text":"年金改革到底是能夠永續的前進維護世代正義來捍衛職業間的公平或者是年改要走回頭路了呢我想在這裡我們要非常清楚的表達我們會發現這26個提案全數都是國民黨委員的提案"},{"start":1990.999,"end":2005.355,"text":"沒有民進黨委員的提案我們的立場非常清楚現在的改革版本是我們在2016年之後我們花了將近兩年的時間不管是總統府籌組了年金改革的會議"},{"start":2006.656,"end":2033.97,"text":"或者是在立法院上上屆非常充分的討論的結果而來但是這個上路到現在的年改的這些執行我們必須肯定改革已經有正向的功效不管是在挹注我們的基金我們的責任是要去擬平這個缺口"},{"start":2035.431,"end":2052.211,"text":"絕對不是擴大這個缺口所以在整個執行的狀況不管是有效的尊潔之後然後來挹注回這一個POOL這個基金本身是有正面的效益第二也在他的投資"},{"start":2053.793,"end":2069.705,"text":"相關的成效來呈現也都有更高當初預期的成效都有達到所以說在野黨的委員第一個主張說年改上路了一段時間就要來檢討它的績效"},{"start":2070.646,"end":2088.798,"text":"那麼我們希望與會討論的災難委員們務必請把第九次精算報告後後的那一本仔細的閱讀過再來評論年改的成效如何而不是那後後一本的精算報告"},{"start":2089.739,"end":2102.373,"text":"提案的委員們完全都不予理會完全都不予專業的討論就直接進入政治的命題就是年改無論如何要停下來"},{"start":2104.076,"end":2127.27,"text":"要緩下來我想討論的前提立法委員專業的問政請依據事實的數字來討論我們要進行的議案那民進黨團的立場我們認為年改要繼續如果採行國民黨委員的提案不管哪一個議案造成的所得替代率"},{"start":2128.451,"end":2148.093,"text":"停下來不再緩降造成了三大不公平第一大不公平重退休輕限職也就是現在的退休的平均的不管是公教公務或是教育人員的平均數"},{"start":2149.608,"end":2173.58,"text":"都幾乎可達現職服務與工作崗位的工作同仁大概是七成換言之週休七日可以領得七成現役人員的薪水我們在職場上非常不喜歡一句話叫勞役不均而這就是完全的勞役大不均"},{"start":2174.48,"end":2178.269,"text":"如果再以在業黨委員的版本要讓現職的"},{"start":2180.461,"end":2206.042,"text":"加薪跟退休人員的退休分加薪也要綁定的話那就不止勞役不均我們討厭同工不同仇但如果綁定同等加薪的話這更成為惡中之惡不公平中的不公平因為它不只是同工不同仇它是不上工就同仇"},{"start":2206.923,"end":2229.377,"text":"所以說綁定一起調薪這個部分更要請在野黨的委員要三思所以說重退休輕限職是第一大不公平第二大不公平是我們側重獨厚於公教人員的退服而輕了其他職業別的合理對待"},{"start":2230.157,"end":2251.642,"text":"重工叫欽勞工欽勞農欽國民年金這些弱勢長者的保險這是跨職業間的不平等就是第二個不公平而當然第三個不公平是如果基金的缺口越來越大了年金停侃了"},{"start":2252.882,"end":2278.573,"text":"最終由政府來負擔那就是轉嫁到全體納稅人來承擔所以基金的缺口全民承擔這是第三大不公平所以三大不公平我們不能夠輕易的草率的透過今天的修法造成社會更劇烈的不正義"},{"start":2279.773,"end":2308.993,"text":"那我也要再次强调我们一直希望能够用民生的议题跟角度来看待年改的议案而不要只把它作为一个政治的攻防我为什么说要用民生的角度来看它我们来比看看到底在野党委员所说的要年改就是因为要维持退休生活的基本所需这就不折不扣是民生"},{"start":2310.233,"end":2329.702,"text":"那我們來看看維持大家在當今社會認為的基本生活所需的那一個合理性在哪裡在野黨委員說如果再砍退休的同仁沒有辦法維持他的生活了我們來看具體的數字"},{"start":2331.448,"end":2354.88,"text":"公教最低的保障金額退休的金額是三萬八千一百三三萬八千一百三是最低保障金額公教退輔所領的如果以公務人員將近十八萬他的平均退休金額是五零六五六來到五萬塊"},{"start":2356.261,"end":2363.072,"text":"如果是教育人員更高一些14.1萬的教育同仁他的退休縫的平均值是57973"},{"start":2366.96,"end":2390.028,"text":"大家用當今社會的思維在場有非常多年輕的世代不管你是20歲、30歲、40歲如果說你一個月50656或57973的這一個穩定的退休縫的收入真的難以維持你的基本生活所需嗎?"},{"start":2391.548,"end":2408.804,"text":"這是第一個命題我們就回到實際的生活脈絡的所需的那個界定是什麼第二個來看不同職業別如果公務人員覺得平均領五萬五萬七都很難生活了"},{"start":2409.853,"end":2429.956,"text":"那我们来看看劳工朋友人数是公教的20倍领劳保劳退的劳工朋友们平均是25500元左右的月退奉等于是公教人员的二分之一不到啊"},{"start":2431.907,"end":2444.562,"text":"勞工只領25479不到公教人員的一半那勞工怎麼辦呢老農有51.5萬的老農平均月領是81108110元"},{"start":2449.592,"end":2466.833,"text":"這相較之下 數額天差地別 更不要說保我們國民年金保險有206 207萬的這些弱勢長者一個月領不到4000塊 他們的退休保障所領取每個月只有3933"},{"start":2468.996,"end":2489.737,"text":"所以說在野黨的委員一直在說公教人員五萬四五萬七不夠基本生活所需那我們服務的絕對是跨族群跨世代的國人那勞工怎麼辦老農怎麼辦國民年金的這些保護怎麼辦"},{"start":2491.557,"end":2512.579,"text":"國家的資源有限所以民進黨這一次只要在國家裁員可以調度的機會我們都希望能夠創造對於國保對於老農對於勞保增加它的各項提升退休金撥補的可能"},{"start":2513.22,"end":2538.61,"text":"所以民進黨提出了345億佔行條例就是因應才化法沒有辦法分配的那個數額拿來補給勞工補給國保的長者所以我們有具體的作為我要強調在國家資源有限的狀況之下怎麼樣想方設法去抿平我剛剛說的資源相對更被剝奪職業間更失衡的這個狀況"},{"start":2540.271,"end":2562.078,"text":"也向在野黨的委員報告民進黨團昨天也已經提出國民年金法的修正草案希望政府未來對於國民年金這些弱勢長者的保費中央地方一起來合理分擔所以我們不是指對於公教的部分來跟在野黨的委員就停止"},{"start":2563.649,"end":2590.517,"text":"年金改革的部分做討論做攻防我們更進一步用民生的議題來看待所以我們負責任的針對老保的老農的國保的所做的部署的部分我們有其他的提法案的配套而不是指如在野黨的委員們你們只就公教來討論他的年金的福利所以在看待一個政策要全面"},{"start":2591.653,"end":2618.661,"text":"我們大家都服務選民我們來自於基層我相信我們要為人民來發聲捍衛的不是只有公教的族群我們同樣面對人數更多的勞工老農國保的長者們這是我們看待這個議案非常重要的一個切入點如果我們只是就公教的議題來看公教的年改要不要停下來"},{"start":2619.501,"end":2640.199,"text":"那麼就會只落入一個國家資源分配比不公更不公的那一個BIOS那個偏差的討論所以我希望今天大家在大體的部分能夠有更理性更充分的對話畢竟條文五個等一下如果進到條文的時候可能大家在條文的討論"},{"start":2641.448,"end":2655.395,"text":"都會不拖我們在大體的一些辯證我再一次呼籲請用民生的課題來看待今天的修法如果一旦讓改革停了不只公教人員"},{"start":2656.576,"end":2677.484,"text":"同一個職業別的世代不均被加劇跨職業別的資源失衡更被撕裂了這個社會的福利資源所以我會爭取等一下還有發言的機會好嗎那我認為這只是我今天的開場白請主席給我們多元的討論的時間那先就這樣來分享我對這幾個條文的看法謝謝"},{"start":2683.476,"end":2711.054,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼今天在介紹張啟凱委員跟吳宗憲委員也都到場那請接著請羅委員發言剛剛聽到吳世耀委員的發言我就用兩個字來形容 叫冷血很簡單今天真的公務員有像吳世耀說的這麼美好國考的報考人數不會從馬政府時候最高的50萬掉到去年的16萬人高普考人數也是不斷地下降"},{"start":2712.233,"end":2741.017,"text":"我也考過高考當年我考高考入取率是6%你知道114年高考入取率是多少嗎53.41%如果說今天公職人員公務人員還像你說的是這麼好這麼美好這麼棒的一個行業我告訴你今天報考人數不會掉到剩下五成七成以下直接掉到五成七成"},{"start":2742.609,"end":2767.101,"text":"為什麼 就是你民進黨執政 你就是在踐踏公務人員嘛踐踏不只是公務人員的尊嚴 也踐踏公務人員的退休保障啊我知道啦 民進黨向來只會酬庸 不會用文官啦所有的官都是只用自己酬庸的官 吃香喝辣前一陣子爆出吳英寧也是一件事 社會大會罵翻了才只好把吳英寧這個人事撤回"},{"start":2767.682,"end":2792.02,"text":"只有510嗎 一大堆酬庸人士沒有關係 你高層要吃得肥滋滋但是文觀你有沒有好好去想過文觀是這麼多年來我們台灣經濟發展的命脈根本奇蹟的創造者過去沒有這些優秀專業中立認真負責認識的文觀台灣哪來的十大建設啊"},{"start":2793.103,"end":2813.7,"text":"台灣哪來的科學園區台灣哪來的台積電台灣哪來的各種所謂的人才的培育結果到了民進黨執政的時候你把文官拆到大家連考試都不願意的時候你還跟我講說照顧文官就是來去剝削其他職業"},{"start":2816.297,"end":2839.16,"text":"是這種態度的執政者 你叫文官怎麼幫你們效命啊怎麼去為國家拼建設沒有好的人才 請問國家如何支撐 何以為繼你還可以這麼冷血的跟我講說這是財政問題 那奇怪了老保先舉手支持喔 我贊成老保撥補喔民進黨遇到老保的虧損 就說"},{"start":2841.563,"end":2864.719,"text":"撥補是改革啊 撥補是改革撥補是改革 民進黨的名言啊老闆撥補五千多億 羅志強舉雙手雙腳贊成啊因為勞工很辛苦啊 值得撥補啊可是遇到了公務人員 遇到了教職人員就說你們是什麼米蟲 你們不值得我們不可以撥補 國家會破產 基金會不夠"},{"start":2869.366,"end":2894.015,"text":"這不是雙重標準 什麼是雙重標準這不是赤裸裸踐踏公務人員 踐踏教職人員什麼叫赤裸裸踐踏公務人員跟教職人員所以不要再編造一些所謂的那些數字今天公務員 公教人員在這個所謂的民進黨打的年金改革大旗之下已經所得替代率降到七成以下了"},{"start":2895.257,"end":2923.482,"text":"在這種情況之下他沒有要求回復到2018年以前的水準是非常卑微的要求只是拜託不要再砍了我還是真心的奉勸今天民進黨如果今天我們的高考入取率跟我在報考高考的時候一樣6%大家搶破頭你可以跟我講國民黨 民眾黨你們的提案停砍年金是沒道理的"},{"start":2924.383,"end":2935.192,"text":"很吸引人嘛 大家都要嘛如果說今天我們看到政府的缺額比方台北市政府缺額率已經超過一成了缺額8300人"},{"start":2937.697,"end":2963.749,"text":"如果我們看到今天教師沒有說今天找不到教師的問題教師擠破頭你跟我講說公教人員待遇很好你跟我講公教人員待遇太好了好到不公平我覺得你還有說服力喔今天是嗎公教人員要求的只不過是你把我血跟肉吸乾之後你留我一個骨頭在手上吧不要連骨頭都砍了啦"},{"start":2965.455,"end":2986.247,"text":"回到一個根本的問題 今天停砍所謂的年金停砍所得替代率 那是真改革國家人才已經崩壞崩盤了啦照你們這樣去搞下去 你乾脆說今天所得替代率砍到變零不是最好嗎國家連錢都不用出省了啦是這樣嗎是這個道理嗎不客氣的講 民進黨講白了就是把公教"},{"start":2993.471,"end":3007.998,"text":"當作所謂的敵人啦把公教視為敵人啦踩著公教 踐踏公教然後呢 重用你們仇傭的肥貓們這就是今天民進黨的執政生態 以上好 接下來請張啟凱委員發言"},{"start":3014.025,"end":3041.359,"text":"然后之后是我们干脆用政党好不好就是请不要再欺负不要再霸凌我们的公教人员了刚刚吴思雅吴委员的开场牌我听了是非常难过的为什么不能够先想一想这段时间因为民进党政府的浪费跟弊案浪费了多少钱最近这一两个礼拜最有名的"},{"start":3042.475,"end":3069.625,"text":"就是海軍的一個局長說 預算能編多少多編一點能騙多少多 多騙然後呢 編出來預算是怎麼樣子一瓶水120塊錢一張桌子250萬一張椅子5萬塊被抓到之後連國防部長顧立雄自己都覺得不好意思吃太多了 吃到後來都吐出來了後來國防部這次的任性特別預算 砍掉多少錢"},{"start":3071.124,"end":3089.175,"text":"省下了五十億 省下五十億耶 本來要騙走的錢耶這些錢為什麼不能好好省下來 不要浪費 不要弊案來照顧我們的公教人員呢第二個 錯誤的能源政策 買了全世界最貴的光電光是最近這幾年撥補了三次 給台電的就三千億"},{"start":3098.939,"end":3125.724,"text":"公教退休人員的退休金被砍了已經第七年了大家知道省下多少錢嗎2700多億波普台電的錢拿來都掛了都是因為民進黨一個錯誤的能源政策所以少浪費 少錯誤的能源政策 少弊端不只公教人員可以被好好照顧全台灣民眾都可以好好被照顧為什麼那麼冷血這樣對待公務人員為什麼要這麼霸凌他呢"},{"start":3128.376,"end":3155.163,"text":"而且因為民進黨推了年改的時候忽略很多東西 很多重點像貨遺症全部都跑出來了受害不是只有公教人員全體民眾都受害了參加公務員考試的 國考的從年改開始到去年底一年降了17萬人大家不去考 不去當公務員了國家人才進不去公務體系"},{"start":3156.721,"end":3180.041,"text":"國家發展面受到影響傷害不是全國的民眾嗎有拿到老師教師證的以前啊 年改之前拿到教師證100個有70個會進入學校到了去年剩下55%少了15%的人跑掉了教育受到影響 學校受到影響我們的小孩都受到傷害了"},{"start":3183.379,"end":3212.233,"text":"所以看到的是從教育 小孩 國家的發展甚至當初在訂的時候沒有注意到高齡者 年長者退休以後的生活所需我們從前年主計處才發現說這很嚴重開始做我們高齡家庭的CPI結果發現高齡者家庭的每年的CPI比一般的家庭多了相近"},{"start":3213.154,"end":3237.413,"text":"一趴左右年紀越大 高齡的家庭 醫療上的需求很多的照顧他們基本的生活手續所以政府開始要做這個了我們發現了高齡者需要的之前沒有被照顧到那小孩子 年輕人 撫養的負擔沒有做嗎年輕人沒有受害嗎所以今天一方面 我們是在捕破王"},{"start":3239.215,"end":3267.547,"text":"14個這7年都發現了非常多的問題所以今天我們再提出來沒有要恢復像以前耶公教已經被砍了多少 三分之一退休的所得替代率已經被砍了三分之一 該停了吧而且整個後遺症出來是連年輕人連教育 國家發展都受影響了所以我們今天民眾黨非常具體的提出三大要求"},{"start":3270.441,"end":3296.872,"text":"我們沒有回溯沒有說要恢復到之前的被砍的可是從今年開始請停砍因為被砍的三分之一已經非常多而且太多後遺症出來第二個也很重要跟勞工一樣嘛職業是要平等的嘛民進黨已經跳票了當初說要連改的時候是各個行業別都有勞工沒有改我們贊成而且我們贊成撥補給勞工可是要平等其他跟他報告最近這三年"},{"start":3298.223,"end":3324.06,"text":"最近這三年勞保每一年政府用我們人民納稅錢撥補多少錢一年都1300億最近這三年就3900億喔可是公教人員每年該撥補的錢全部都是短缺的所以我們只要求是要平等的第二件事情要做我們繼續撥補勞工可是相對的公教該撥補的要足爾只要是公教的撥補是足爾的"},{"start":3325.697,"end":3349.884,"text":"就可以永續發展 沒有破產問題第三個也很重要大家都沒有注意到我們的退府基金這個水庫啊最近水位是高的喔以前當初為什麼要連改第一個政府說財政不好我們財政現在變好了耶107年在連改的時候中央政府總計算的規模是多少一兆九千億 今年多少"},{"start":3350.799,"end":3378.621,"text":"今年已經快到三兆了 明年超過三兆耶第二個 以前稅收短縮最近這幾年每一年都超增稅收去年超增了五千兩百多億所以我們最近才要發億萬塊的現金啊所以你當初連改的那個基礎已經都不在了嘛國家財政變好了那你為什麼要繼續砍第二個 你當初說要改你說退伍基金快破產了 績效不好"},{"start":3379.946,"end":3405.539,"text":"以前當初在改的時候 績效大概是2%左右大家知道最近這五年 平均的退伍基金的績效是多少平均超過9% 從2%變成是9%所以在年改的時候 退伍基金裡面規模5000多億現在是上兆欸所以大的水庫國家財政變好了小的水庫 整個退伍基金的水庫也變好了當初年改的理由現在根本不存在 為什麼要繼續砍呢"},{"start":3408.493,"end":3434.667,"text":"我請民進黨好好看一看你們當初改革的都跳票了第一個基礎不見了大水庫有了小水庫國家財政跟基金的績效都已經變好了請你們去注意這個點第二個更重要我們贊成撥補勞工繼續撥補可是相對的我們在依法上面該給公教人員的撥補要撥補完撥補好以後這個就沒有破產的問題就說永續發展另外提一個剛剛講第三點我把它講完"},{"start":3435.495,"end":3448.586,"text":"我們的基金的績效已經從以前的2%變成現在最近這5年的9%了那依照精算的結果我們的基金只要成長我們的投資績效有7%就不會破產了大家知道嗎你隨便去買那個買那個台灣50"},{"start":3458.7,"end":3482.351,"text":"所以這一兩年都超過7%如果是政府拿了退休人員的錢去操作這個基金你還買不到7%那你要負責啊要不然最簡單你就拿去全部買台灣五十放在那裡柯文哲之前還找過幾個會計師去算過他說最近這30年來啊最近這30年如果不是政府去亂搞這當然包括以前所有的政府"},{"start":3483.254,"end":3491.438,"text":"以前要護盤嘛 對不對現在沒有 現在比較公開透明啊他說會計師去算以前如果不要這樣護盤你去買一個比較基優的至少有6到7%的6到7%的這個成長"},{"start":3495.208,"end":3513.262,"text":"所以這樣一路我談下來第一個 當初臨改要砍公務員的財政不好基金 績效不好這已經都是改革完了那我們今天非常具體的提出三個解決方案第一個 不要再砍了可是我們不會去往前追這是一個點照顧我們的公教人員不要再霸凌他第二個"},{"start":3514.282,"end":3539.848,"text":"趕快依法來撥補第三個 維持該有的基金的經營績效因為過去五年就已經9%了在經營績效只要在7%以上都沒有問題所以請民進黨不要一直造謠而且沒有注意到整個實際狀況的這個改變你們現在停留在106年跟107年而且你們要講的勞工的這個改革也沒有改嘛我們認為說勞工我們現在不用改了可是進攻叫趕快停止砍好不好 謝謝"},{"start":3543.476,"end":3572.55,"text":"好那接下來請吳宗憲委員發言那個主席還是說我們交叉這樣子大家能夠對我可以先讓好那我想要不然我們今天就採那個政黨交叉的方式對這樣比較能夠意見交換好的那接下來再請是不是可以讓沒有發言過的民進黨委員先發言因為我想說我們是不是大家都先今天進行第一輪好好好ok好"},{"start":3573.328,"end":3596.979,"text":"那就請吳氏耀委員好 不好意思我剛剛已經破題我說我希望用民生的議題來看待這個修法但是顯然在野黨委員都要用政治的攻防來面對我第一輪的發言大家先理後兵我從頭到尾非常理性的講實際的數字執行的績效但如果在野黨委員都要用這種"},{"start":3598.323,"end":3622.195,"text":"比較激烈的政治的語言我是呼籲不要啦大家理性的來探討但只是非常遺憾剛剛的在野黨兩位委員的發言從頭到尾我聽到了很多都是形容詞顯然兩位委員對於這一本張其凱委員講了又跑了這一本第九次的精算報告厚厚的290頁289頁請問在野黨委員你們哪一位看過了"},{"start":3626.69,"end":3640.508,"text":"要評論這個政策年改的績效現在要來檢討這精算報告這是當一個立法委員最基本的專業需求請問哪一位委員看過了我認為應當沒有"},{"start":3642.847,"end":3668.196,"text":"如果你們有看過就不會講剛剛都是空泛的形容詞沒有具體的數字沒有具體的改革成效的任何一個具體的陳述很抱歉我在羅志祥委員的發言我在張啟凱委員的發言我只聽到很多的形容詞而且是非常不理性的形容詞"},{"start":3669.605,"end":3689.421,"text":"你們只會說誰在踐踏誰你們只會說誰把公教當敵人你們還扯到肥貓還扯到能源政策還扯到國防還扯到米蟲這都是你們講的"},{"start":3690.973,"end":3716.71,"text":"都從你們的嘴巴出現這些我們民進黨來希望理性的來討論就數字論數字就法案論法案但是我都聽到了空泛的形容詞因為你們沒有做功課所以講不出具體的內容第二個只會顧左右而言他羅志強委員不要走啦"},{"start":3718.9,"end":3745.967,"text":"不要只會顧左右而言他東扯西扯不敢來講這個精算報告具體的告訴大家我們改革縱然有成效但是不能終止不能暫停因為會功虧一簣因為會整座海撩撩如果對的是只做一半那就是功虧一簣"},{"start":3747.727,"end":3774.396,"text":"剛剛我也要謝謝所以兩位委員現在不在場我謝謝羅志強委員跟張啟凱委員至少肯定了年改有成效所以才會說現在的水位回升了現在的公教的退休相對權益被保障了這都是正向肯定我們推動改革的成效但是前提是不能因為改革有成效改革就要停"},{"start":3775.436,"end":3795.911,"text":"如果改革有成效 正要繼續達到它最終更好的原始設定的成果不是嗎而不是功虧一簣 從頭再來整組海料料所以不要顧左右而言它也不要只會用空泛的形容詞來轉移焦點"},{"start":3798.991,"end":3812.227,"text":"我要具體回應剛剛兩位委員講到跟今天主題勉強相關的叫做公務人員如何讓他們讓鐵飯碗依舊成為大家有信心有尊嚴的職場讓鐵飯碗繼續是鐵飯碗"},{"start":3817.092,"end":3843.625,"text":"那就要對現役工作同仁的權益擴大保障才對誰踐踏了公教人員民進黨從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統我們為公教人員調了四次心調了14%都是要照顧現役工作人員公教人員讓他們在這個職場有更好的待遇"},{"start":3844.865,"end":3870.55,"text":"願意投入這一個為國家奉獻的工作崗位民進黨調了4次14%國民黨馬英九只調了一次只有3%誰在踐踏公教人員呢羅志強委員每次都說公教人員報考率低就是因為砍年金這完全是錯誤的診斷這是悖論啊"},{"start":3874.215,"end":3887.252,"text":"如果大家認為對於公教退休的保障不夠好那我們要思考的除了保障退休公教人員更要保障的不是現在服務的現職公教人員嗎"},{"start":3888.939,"end":3913.953,"text":"如果停侃的年金改革終止了我們的公務人員的這個基金只能再撐17年教育人員的基金只能再撐14年換言之未來17年後14年後服務於公教人員退休的這些相對年輕的世代他連退休金都領不到了耶"},{"start":3915.394,"end":3927.586,"text":"這才是真的讓鐵飯碗不再鐵飯碗對於公務人員的退休保障完全強害破壞了就是因為你們在推這個停止改革的惡法"},{"start":3929.09,"end":3949.46,"text":"要保障公務人員就是人人的退休金看得到領得到這是國家的責任如果為了保障現在你們認為退休的公教人員的福利而是以犧牲現役工作人員的權益來達成這就大大不可啊"},{"start":3950.342,"end":3979.085,"text":"真的不可以為了要保障提升退役公務人員的權利而以換取犧牲現職公務人員的權利這是絕對不可以的事所以不要錯誤的診斷問題我記得人事總署在上一次質詢的時候就已經清楚的回答了羅志強委員的命題為什麼公教人員的報考率確實下降"},{"start":3980.37,"end":4000.5,"text":"新的时代不同职业的选择更多元现在的经济发展经济活动更蓬勃大家可能跟过去国民党执政的时候经济发展疲乏的那个状态大家选择做公务人员有起码的生活保障"},{"start":4001.36,"end":4023.145,"text":"在現在經濟活動經濟成長台灣回到亞洲四小龍之手的時候大家願意在多元的職場的選擇去做出不同於以往的選擇我們都尊重上次這是我們職總人總的同仁清楚的回覆"},{"start":4024.424,"end":4051.116,"text":"羅志強委員的提問不要簡化而且是錯誤的診斷現在公教人員報考率偏低把他直接單一化扭曲為因為年金改革這完全是文不對題這完全就是錯誤的悖論如果說年金改革是踐踏"},{"start":4052.967,"end":4079.563,"text":"公務人員那世界各國都在踐踏公務人員囉大家看看我手上的這一個數字這是世界各國這幾年都在面對年改的課題世界各國都在面對如何來緩解公教的退休撫恤的財政壓力各國都在改年改"},{"start":4080.618,"end":4106.557,"text":"而且一改再改是越改越嚴而不是像我們現在上路五六年要越改越放鬆走回頭路如果以OECD國家的所得替代率的平均值是50.7%OECD國家所得替代率50.7比台灣還低得多"},{"start":4107.711,"end":4130.172,"text":"比台灣的所得替代率OECD國家低了28%左右也就是台灣的所得替代率高於OECD國家大概28%因為我們的本縫兩倍作為分母計算要乘以1.18倍才是實質的退休軍公教領取的實質月退我要講這個數字的補充"},{"start":4132.185,"end":4153.934,"text":"所以世界各國都在年改世界各國都在踐踏公務人員嗎絕對不是這樣反而台灣比起世界各國我們更想方設法要照顧公教人員的權益我們的所得替代率高於OECD國家28%左右這是事實這是數字所以我們再一次呼籲"},{"start":4155.254,"end":4173.81,"text":"我們理性專業的講數字而不是講空泛的形容詞我們負責任的來講條文的內涵改革的成效以及終止改革的負面效益我們都來講實在扎實的拿一點料出來啦"},{"start":4174.912,"end":4200.425,"text":"不要只是堆砌著花而不實作物百出的形容的語彙不敢面對自己這個修法造成的基金破口更大的問題年改基金破產了誰負責17年後14年後公務人員教育人員領不到退休金的話今天提案的這些委員們能負責嗎最後一點"},{"start":4204.181,"end":4221.055,"text":"在野黨的委員們不要對不起馬英九國民黨的委員不要對不起馬英九馬英九說的年金不改明天就會後悔當時馬英九在講這番話的時候羅志強正是他的總統府副秘書長年金就是一台指使的列車"},{"start":4227.321,"end":4252.464,"text":"前方有一個大懸崖如果現在不改革火車持續向前開這台火車一定會墜崖這是馬英九過去說的羅志強就是站在他身邊的總統府副秘書長今天您該走回頭路國民黨人對不起馬英九今天民眾黨張其凱也好黃國昌也好"},{"start":4254.301,"end":4279.844,"text":"停砍年金也是對不起柯文哲不要忘了柯文哲曾經痛罵反年改的團體是王八蛋這是柯文哲說的不要忘了黃國昌曾經過去認為年改要趕快上路年改改得不夠多砍得不夠大這是黃國昌過去的主張不要為了政治利益"},{"start":4281.246,"end":4306.878,"text":"而踐踏世代正義不要為了政治利益而出賣自己過去的主張跟靈魂更不要為了藍白河把好不容易有成效的年改讓它尬然停止走回頭路再一次提醒大家發言的時候請講實際的內容不要再講這些阿利布達的形容詞了"},{"start":4310.741,"end":4320.381,"text":"因為我們今天之後可能還會要進行到主條審查所以我希望大家大體發言的時候能夠更精簡一些接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":4323.849,"end":4348.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想這個當然我是在這邊先提到一個剛剛那個吳世耀委員說現在台灣是亞洲四小龍之首在民進黨英明的領導之下但是我想說當然我不知道說這個的判斷標準是什麼啦當然我予以尊重但是我看到的是目前我們台灣的薪資中位數是不到4萬塊那日本的薪資中位數大概是在7萬多台幣新加坡是在"},{"start":4350.123,"end":4378.492,"text":"我看到有不同的文獻大概是在16到19萬之間那也就是我們的薪資中位數是日本的二分之一是新加坡的五分之一那我們現在變成亞洲四小龍之首那當然您的那個數據怎麼來當然我都予以尊重但我只是說我光求薪資中位數這個跟我們人民有切身關係的薪資中位數來看似乎感覺不是那麼貼切那第二個我再提到一個點就因為我們今天回到我們今天的主題"},{"start":4380.635,"end":4395.228,"text":"我想之前那個吳孝遠有一次在院會的時候我記得有一次在院會發言裡面有提到就是有關這個年改的部分大法官是認為這個是合憲的但是我當時還有我現在要跟各位報告"},{"start":4396.417,"end":4424.227,"text":"一個人他到政府來任職公務員他領的薪水其實相較於外面常常是會比較低那我拿我自己當例子我自己在當檢察官的時候那個時候的收入絕對比我去外面當律師低很多但是我為什麼願意來擔任檢察官因為他有一個很好的退休制度讓我知道我在退休之後生活不會受到太大的影響所以我寧願花我所有年輕"},{"start":4425.507,"end":4444.066,"text":"最精華的這個時間為國家奉獻但是如果有一天國家告訴我我退休我老的時候國家告訴我說這個當初講的不算那如果今天是發生在私人企業我覺得早就鬧大事政府都介入但是今天是面對國家公務員的時候"},{"start":4444.927,"end":4464.646,"text":"現在的政府卻有另外一套講法那時候吳少偉委員說這個大法官宣告是合憲那我認為這個部分我想跟各位委員報告他只講了一半我認為對國人的說法不能這樣子因為大法官的意思是說請看四字七八二號他講得很清楚"},{"start":4465.507,"end":4484.248,"text":"有關這個退休金是有信賴保護的我先說明有信賴保護的必要性而且信賴保護是法律的原理原則但是當國家面臨跟公益有重大關係的時候這時候信賴保護才會被限縮我想這個釋字是這樣講"},{"start":4485.908,"end":4507.487,"text":"所以當我們今天如果我們現在國家面臨重大的危難我們國家都沒有錢了那我們請公務員共體時間來砍掉他們的退休金這個是符合四字大法官的認定我們先姑且不論大法官這個說這個符合性愛保護原則要被限縮合不合理我先不去論這個"},{"start":4508.388,"end":4534.56,"text":"而是我們如果依照四日七八二號是當國家有面臨重大公益挑戰重大危難等等的情況下你去砍公務員的薪水這個信賴保護是會被限縮這個沒有問題但是我是請教各位過去四年五年我們超收一兆多甚至民進黨一直很洋洋得意說我去年超收五千多億那個稅金那這個情況下我想請問我們信賴保護"},{"start":4537.68,"end":4551.09,"text":"為什麼要被限縮呢你從大法官的四字七八二號來看這個時候 這個時間點既然我們的政府好棒棒讓國家可以超收五千多億稅金的時候那就不符合七八二號的說法了嘛"},{"start":4552.307,"end":4578.378,"text":"所以你不能就一句說782號說信貸保護可以被限縮那這個現在就可以782號所說的信貸保護限縮是有前提的是國家有如此的公益需求的時候才可以這麼做但是今天看起來稅收上面其實是超收這幾年都超收那也是民進黨政府引以為傲的超收那這個時候你再去做限縮其實是違反"},{"start":4579.477,"end":4583.442,"text":"四四七八号的他的精神所以第一个"},{"start":4584.588,"end":4610.823,"text":"我從法制面先跟各位先做這個報告那不要說我們都在講政治口水這個就是法制面還有我剛剛願意讓吳孝文先講就是我覺得我們現在是大體討論討論就是一來一往一來一往所以我願意讓他先講我是善意的希望把這個拿出來討論所以第一個法制面目前我覺得我們並沒有782號所說的有這個公益需求因為我們去年有超收5000多億的稅金"},{"start":4614.124,"end":4636.909,"text":"剛剛旗開委員他是從國家一些錯誤政策浪費的角度去說明說浪費了那麼多錢就這個小錢你卻要省不給國人剛剛強哥有提到就是相同的東西勞保卻可以撥補但是公務員卻不能撥補這在制度上面變成雙標我覺得他們都有他的一定的論述但是我從法制面跟各位報告就是剛剛那個狀況再回過頭來我剛剛提到的說"},{"start":4641.867,"end":4658.156,"text":"你像現在我自己做過24年的公務員那24年的薪水真的領得比我同期一起考上但是去擔任律師的人或是去公司裡面擔任法務長的人少很多但是司法官比他們司法官比律師更難考"},{"start":4659.181,"end":4678.529,"text":"那為什麼你更難考的考試考上之後我又寧願領比較低的薪水因為我就是覺得我希望退休有一個很穩定的保障但是我退休的時候政府跟我說當初講了不算所以當然公務員對這東西會有意見我覺得這難免的那當然還有另外一個狀況就是不好的"},{"start":4679.269,"end":4693.94,"text":"越來越差的制度越來越不受尊重越來越沒有尊嚴的公務員本來你要錄取到一流的人才就不容易所以我覺得現在的狀況變成說報考的人越來越少"},{"start":4694.58,"end":4710.42,"text":"那當國家的公務員他沒有辦法招收到一流人才的時候那是不是我們國家的戰力會受損當我們國家的力量受損之後其實受害的是全民當一個二流三流四流的人來萬一是這種人來"},{"start":4711.681,"end":4726.454,"text":"主導國家的整個方向的時候我們這政策很難出去跟大家比拼那自然我們的經濟狀況也會不好國家將來也會越暗淡所以世界上很多國家他們的公務員的選才他們是希望走精英主義"},{"start":4727.335,"end":4743.451,"text":"他們希望好的人才一流人才都到政府來服務制定出最好的政策然後做最好的政策執行者然後讓國家更好但是我們今天似乎是背道而馳那這個的想法是什麼我覺得一個很簡單就是因為某一個執政黨"},{"start":4744.232,"end":4757.698,"text":"某一個政黨他覺得勞工的票多公務員的票少所以我當然是搞票多的那一塊等於又把所有的國家政策又走去政治選舉的思考我覺得這是不聰明的再來還有一個就是從經濟面來看"},{"start":4760.27,"end":4782.426,"text":"我要跟各位報告因為這段時間我所了解到跟我去問了很多人他們說一個狀況就是當年改之後其實公務員他們因為沒有錢用了他們錢可能要去繳房貸要繳什麼所以本來誤以為他退休可能有這一筆錢的存在但是現在他沒有了所以他必須把日常生活很多的"},{"start":4783.126,"end":4808.776,"text":"基本的消費他全部都不敢消費比如說他不敢去他去他們附近的一些小餐館或什麼他不敢去或是他去的次數減少或是旁邊的麵店什麼他可能每天他可能希望家裡要吃五顆蛋但現在他只能改吃三顆等等的這些議題會反映到因為他收入降低他自然支出就會減少這個是一個很基本的一個概念但是我們要想的是當"},{"start":4810.587,"end":4836.548,"text":"這些社會最中間分子最穩定的一個族群他們的消費力減少的時候那接下來他帶來的是什麼他帶來的其實是產業也會受影響也就是說譬如我剛剛講一個當我消費以雞蛋來說當我消費降低的時候他受影響的是不是只有那個公務員退休公務員而是包括譬如說賣雞蛋的小賣商他也會減少"},{"start":4839.462,"end":4863.475,"text":"貨運 物流業者 中盤商 大盤商其實它影響是一整個產業鏈的消費都會縮減當世界上任何一個國家當它消費縮減的時候國家經濟本來就會變差這個是一貫的所以當你覺得說我要砍它的年金讓它花費變少的時候其實它一定會連動到影響到國家的經濟那一整個產業鏈的繳稅也會變少"},{"start":4865.936,"end":4890.572,"text":"所以當我省了一點點給這些人的年金我卻造成國家稅收減少那請問一下誰獲利呢所以你不能一切就是從政治角度來看你要從經濟學的角度再去思考這個點所以不能很簡單的就把所有的問題就切在一個最小的說退休的領多少 現值的領多少怎麼可以這樣所以我們要把它砍光"},{"start":4891.112,"end":4898.243,"text":"所以我剛剛是從法治面從我覺得經濟面還有信賴保護面去說明最後我還是要強調一個點"},{"start":4900.305,"end":4922.783,"text":"我覺得真正沒有做好的是政府因為好的政府他的好的施政讓國家經濟變好之後其實是讓現職的人的薪水增加我們鄰近的國家就是這個狀況所以大學畢業生的起薪一直在往上而我們停滯不前"},{"start":4923.664,"end":4939.462,"text":"當我們停滯不前政府沒有辦法營造一個最好的經濟環境的時候政府做什麼事情他不是想我怎麼樣讓國家能夠更富有讓國家經濟能夠更好他不是在想這個他是在腦子動到退休人身上我砍退休的人的錢就好"},{"start":4940.646,"end":4962.122,"text":"我在職的人政府的那個義務是增加在職的勞工或公務員的薪水能夠節節高升這是政府的責任然後保障退休人原本我跟他講好的錢好的政府是這樣但是我們現在政府不是他沒有辦法讓現職的人的薪水節節高升"},{"start":4962.782,"end":4990.16,"text":"他讓大家去鬥退休的這些人所以這是我覺得不對的地方真正好的政府不應該這樣子做你講到最後我就覺得說不要去製造對立不要去製造現職的人跟退休人對立不要去製造勞工跟公務員的對立大家都在這個國家一起團結努力我為什麼要去製造這樣的對立所以政府的責任還是要創造台灣的經濟奇蹟"},{"start":4993.222,"end":5015.713,"text":"讓大家大學畢業生讓所有的人的薪水往上調我們薪資中位數已經多少年停在那個地方了當鄰近的國家薪資中位數一直往上拉的時候我難過的是我們薪資中位數還是卡在那裡那這時候再回過頭去鬥退休的時候為什麼退休領這麼多我覺得這不是這個只是造成族群的堆立不是在解決國家經濟財政的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":5020.95,"end":5048.951,"text":"好 接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席剛聽了吳委員的一些話從法制面 從經濟面好多方面去論述這個其實都是一種精英的一個傲慢我是比較有跟你一樣不一樣的一個看法這一題如果先把政黨你給把它立場給拿掉"},{"start":5049.972,"end":5058.791,"text":"不同階級的人拿掉大家合理的來看待的話可能稍微就可以聚焦了年金呢"},{"start":5060.739,"end":5083.655,"text":"基金其實它是一個水庫的一個概念這個水庫各個領域裡面它都是一個專屬的一個水庫但它不會是全民的共同的一個水庫如果說一個社會讓繳稅的人比領的人還要苦的話"},{"start":5085.279,"end":5095.052,"text":"我認為這個制度就確實大家好好的來去做一個形式以主計總數公告113年民間平均性的薪資來換4.64萬那你現在"},{"start":5101.092,"end":5129.896,"text":"到2024年65歲以上的人口448萬來看的話退休公務人員平均退的你說31%都超過5.5萬你月退是50395那你退休教育人員平均是57000那約有68%超過57000大家剛才比較了勞工說比較低好像是政府特別民進黨政府特別偏向他"},{"start":5131.755,"end":5159.034,"text":"可是你去想想看任何一個政府從過去到現在你幾乎在對待勞工的時候你會看你退休勞工你就一百九十九萬勞保加勞退的部分平均是兩萬五千那你再去做比較的話如果要提那個相對剝奪感的話五十萬農民老農津貼八一一一零大家很清楚的那你國民年金的部分一百五十萬多少三九九六"},{"start":5160.681,"end":5181.435,"text":"那這些老人 國民情靈的老人年金幾乎多數差不多不足八千那我要講的就是說剛剛吳偉遠特別去強調大法官4至782號他從法制面來提出為什麼說這個是偏頗的原因大法官確實是提到了"},{"start":5183.776,"end":5194.403,"text":"這個信賴保護原則他不是絕對他不是絕對但我們都期待政府的保證或者法制面都可以維持一個穩定性"},{"start":5195.478,"end":5215.075,"text":"那政府當然到最後一定是對於這個整個退伏這個基金付那個保證的一個責任但是你解釋上你並沒有去排除基金你收支如果不足的時候政府可以去採另外的一個其他的因應的措施"},{"start":5216.201,"end":5239.494,"text":"譬如說你去調整這個撥繳費用的一個基準或者說延後退休的給付跟啟資的一個年齡或者說你來拉長平均這個本縫的計算的一個期間甚至於調整整個退休所得替代率等開源節流的一個手段這個為的是幹什麼呢就是說來增加退伍基金的一個財源提高這個支付的一個能力"},{"start":5240.755,"end":5251.111,"text":"基金責任要由政府負最大的責任這個大家都知道啦但是也必須要你現職跟退休者共同去負擔"},{"start":5252.932,"end":5280.157,"text":"因為那個水庫是專屬的它不是全民的所以你如果說全數轉嫁給全體納稅人我看這個也不對我看這個也不對所以大法官施治780的話我樂於看到在海黨的朋友來引用但是那個解釋都只是解釋了一半這是不對的這是不對的那另外我剛剛為什麼提到說一個社會不能讓繳稅的人比零的人還要苦的一個原因就從剛剛"},{"start":5282.378,"end":5303.743,"text":"各個職業類別的你去把它看到他退休以後他所領的去做比較你會很大的一個相對的一個波動感所以這個不是砍年金是把這個制度你怎麼樣去把它補否則的話大家都認為就領啊政府就你一直給啊"},{"start":5304.944,"end":5314.29,"text":"政府就去投資像張七凱講的一年就有幾趴有為的政府你再有為的政府你預測不到昨天的股市跟今天的股市會大跌"},{"start":5316.755,"end":5336.712,"text":"好日子不是每天都會有我想這個改革倒也不是什麼對軍公教的一個不敬你被改革到了一定是不爽如果是我當然也有所不爽但是你要對所有的國民去做一個負責的話你真正要去照顧的是讓每一個退休的人能夠安老而不是讓部分的人過得很安穩年金它是一個水庫"},{"start":5341.943,"end":5350.286,"text":"但是它可不是一個提款機所以以上我這樣講就是說你從各個職業別去看的話差距太大而且你這個改革如果你去走回頭路的話就會有相對剝奪感"},{"start":5368.78,"end":5396.585,"text":"國民黨朋友 在野黨朋友你現在比較的是跟過去國民黨一黨專政過去的年金設計的數字來做比較你如果用全世界的一個OECD的國家去做索德蒂大利做比較的話這一點你就很難去看很難去看待為什麼別的國家是如此那你偏偏是很偏執的去講說我一定要回到以前再把它想想看"},{"start":5397.731,"end":5420.488,"text":"如果說大家都不管了反正誰去執政你就有這個責任好像大家玩這個俄羅斯輪盤一樣就想繼續唸什麼人要執政就投給什麼人輸這個就是不想重新永遠不想執政的一個概念否則一個國家如果真的是要永續的話我們設這樣的一個制度"},{"start":5421.269,"end":5448.543,"text":"倒不是為了砍誰你被改革到人痛苦的時候那我們在立法院在討論的時候是不是也該去想一想說這樣的一個制度裡面是為了一個永續那你一直在拉哩拉扎的講說哪裡浪費掉哪裡浪費掉該浪費掉的你就是要去監督啊浪費掉的人就是到最後會被民眾來懲罰但是這個制度改革不管是誰誰都必須要讓它繼續下去"},{"start":5451.041,"end":5466.863,"text":"你說過去國民黨在執政的時候到現在的一個年輕改革國民黨其實束手無策他完全是百浪不管的反正時間還久嘛真正到破產的時候搞不好我們都不在了我們都死掉了我們都死掉了"},{"start":5467.847,"end":5485.555,"text":"那如果要用這種心態讓他現在的人爽的話那乾脆你說不要不只退休年金不要砍一個人再加發個五萬不是更爽嗎但我們不會這樣去做嘛因為那不符合理性所以我倒覺得看待今天這件事情的時候看待整個年金的一個改革"},{"start":5487.496,"end":5510.131,"text":"啟動了大家都是怕了為了破產都是為了破產怕破產讓他繼續可以永續否則的話你把它想一定以現在的方式在黨朋友你主張的一個方式不是只有到最後是退休的以退休的人掛掉連現在限職的人你想想破產的時候你說連限職的人去哪裡拿錢"},{"start":5512.011,"end":5535.297,"text":"因為它真的就是一個水庫的概念以上簡單跟大家報告好 謝謝莊委員的發言不過我在這邊還是想要談一下就是個人認為退休金跟年金的意義跟性質是不一樣的在國民年金法裡面有關於年金的概念還是比較像是保險的概念跟退休金它是一個工作者"},{"start":5536.758,"end":5552.522,"text":"長期工作之後的退休所得那個意義是不同的而且再說也是不同的水庫那麼我始終認為說公教委員不應該是次等勞工只是因為他的故事是政府我都尊重但是不要評論我的要評論我的就把我的話繼續講下去因為這個錢是全國國民的"},{"start":5561.57,"end":5565.551,"text":"全國國民黨我們家裡頭人也有公務假設也有公務人員的話我希望他領得更多可是有的人會認為說那塊你們的基金如果破產就不應該用我們這裡不是這塊人的錢去賺嘛 一樣嘛我在講強調的是這個概念好不好對 我也是談的就是一個是"},{"start":5580.856,"end":5596.872,"text":"所以我的意思是說 你如果要評論我的你主席說話 我要評論你的啊 一樣意思啊 對不對這樣說好的 那接下來我們再請那個林建吉委員對 因為我們是不是對不同的委員發言"},{"start":5599.522,"end":5615.992,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們在這個討論裡面我當然呼應幾個概念然後也來溝通幾個概念那個退休金如剛才朝偉所講的那其實是雇主是政府跟公教人員的一個工作契約"},{"start":5617.413,"end":5635.916,"text":"所以公教人員付出政府規定的勞動期程來退休這個退休金應該是勞動所得不管是哪一種制度我相信大家在改革的過程當中對於制度也會有一些檢討然後再做出"},{"start":5637.318,"end":5658.713,"text":"再做出一些相對應的方式來因應目前的狀況所以應該我們現在的問題就是政府在原先跟公務人員或公教人員的契約關係是應該明定的而且它是有法律效力的剛才吳宗憲委員其實也提到"},{"start":5659.727,"end":5683.16,"text":"那麼在這個視線裡面當中呢他有提到那在國家什麼樣子的情形下是可以做這樣一個調整的那似乎在這樣一個詮釋上好像我們還沒有到這個國家在經濟上有很大的衝擊那要做這樣子一個大的調整所以也就是政府的信賴保護原則在過去定定的"},{"start":5683.88,"end":5697.814,"text":"那在現在要去打破的話你必須要有一個很讓大家應該有一個溝通的共識它就是一個工作契約嘛那我們過去這樣子定了現在你單方面"},{"start":5698.84,"end":5726.457,"text":"改變了那這樣當然會有一些不公義的產生今天我們就是因為政府在性愛保護原則下讓公教人員感覺失信跟不仁不義我們才有今天這樣一個法案的一個討論所以公教人員其實從頭到尾都是受害跟被動者那另外呢在這是我們的訴求是停砍退休金的逐年遞減而且"},{"start":5727.887,"end":5756.675,"text":"大部分的人的提案大概都在一一三年以後我們就希望現在停侃可能有少部分我不知道某一些提案有沒有回溯但基本上我看大部分的都是停侃年金沒有回溯全訓部在先前的一個討論上當然有提到所謂基金破產的問題但是退府基金不足的始作俑者是政府公教人員是受聘於政府"},{"start":5757.635,"end":5767.52,"text":"那麼退補基金投資績效過去很低落那產生了退補基金的一個困難那也是因為"},{"start":5769.352,"end":5797.555,"text":"過去是政府緊抓著退撫基金的管理權那管理不當結果產生的投資績效低落導致退撫基金未來可能的破產但是相信政府而把錢放到這裡面的公教人員為什麼要承擔這樣一個罪過呢所以我覺得應該是政府本身要檢討但是檢討的方式有很多種包括"},{"start":5799.659,"end":5827.548,"text":"精算報告裡面所講的撥補那我這邊談到撥補的問題我也來呼應一下我們前勞動部長何佩珊 何部長所談的勞保的撥補就是改革所以撥補也是政府可以用的一種手段政府可以透過勞保基金撥補勞保基金來穩定基金的財源所以撥補也是一種改革的手段"},{"start":5828.428,"end":5857.051,"text":"它可以避免趕年金啊這也可以呼應剛才有幾位委員談到的你這個基金不夠 為什麼百年要來補但是政府你有很多錢可以來補的所以你可以運用你可以撥補的這個空間先把它補足而不是叫公教人員先勒緊褲帶然後去因應你未來不知道哪一年它就是早跟晚的一個破產的狀況嘛"},{"start":5858.072,"end":5877.4,"text":"所以有沒有可能我們說技術上來講啦如果在執政的這個部分可以用一些有效的手段來停止激進你們所謂的未來可能的不管是短期或長期的一個破產的可能性那也就是現在任何的可以"},{"start":5878.64,"end":5897.598,"text":"讓基金不要再減少的方式都是可用的那可不可以不要去衝擊到你們原本就已經有信賴保護原則的公教團體我覺得這是一個技術性的方式所以如果勞保的撥補是一種改革那麼退補基金為什麼不可以"},{"start":5900.14,"end":5925.638,"text":"蔡英文總統其實曾經對公教來喊話她說公教人員不是改革的對象是改革的夥伴大家要共同來參與但是年金卻只有集中在砍公教的族群如果要比較勞保年金的破產也是岌岌可危的那又該怎麼處理呢所以現在在勞保的撥補上有五千一百七十億"},{"start":5926.88,"end":5935.153,"text":"結果在過去呢7年的改革進度好像也沒有很好公教撥補都不到300億"},{"start":5937.162,"end":5963.499,"text":"但是我們如何來看待這個大家所謂的不同職業類別的一個比較呢那我最後呼應啦就是類別不要相互比較公教勞工一個是類別大家的這個職業類別相互比較就這是共產國家嗎我們通常的都是都一起比較嘛那另外呢是退休"},{"start":5964.824,"end":5976.53,"text":"大家在退休金是過去的公教人員對政府的一個信任當這個信任被打破他們也不可能買到過去的時間再去回復到過去的選擇"},{"start":5977.99,"end":6002.426,"text":"所以我覺得這個性愛保護原則是非常重要的所以秉持在這個原則下那政府基金是你在做處理的然後信任你的是公教的群體所以不要把對象給搞錯了那某一些比較也不應該是沒有其一標準的亂比那這樣子很難讓人"},{"start":6004.813,"end":6013.718,"text":"不去想到某一種不同的類別鬥爭我覺得這個是我這邊要做一個提醒的謝謝好 接下來再請那個莊委員剛才莊瑞雄莊委員提到那個會破產這個問題會嗎公教退伍基金會破產嗎勞動部的部長對啊民進黨勞動部的部長就說"},{"start":6034.875,"end":6039.2,"text":"波幅也是用改革啊而且他拍胸脯 歷任的勞動部部長都說不會破產啊勞工的退伏基金明明就破洞月比較大啊為什麼他都不會他都不會不會破產啊雖然你這麼多 我在說我在說你破產的這件事情你說回到勞動部為什麼勞工"},{"start":6057.639,"end":6080.959,"text":"沒有啦 人家在說我們剛才理性溝通人家這麼理性的 你怎麼用這個水泳這麼理性對不對 人家怎麼理性對話我寫說 用勞動部長的標準我希望權敘部跟教育部的部長你們要跟勞動部部長學沒有破產這件事情而且台灣民眾黨至少提出三個方法是不會破產的"},{"start":6082.3,"end":6095.95,"text":"職業平等你就跟勞工一樣撥補我剛剛已經講了過去7年勞工的撥補超過5000億特別是最近這三年每一年都超過1000億"},{"start":6097.631,"end":6118.985,"text":"就用同樣的標準我們贊成對勞工繼續撥補可是職業是平等的只要公教也是足額的撥補老實講公教的撥補金額是比較少的你只要每一年增加一兩百億就夠了沒有像勞工一下子要增加一年一千億他就不會有破產問題這是第一個第二個方法是什麼"},{"start":6121,"end":6128.358,"text":"績效啊 我剛剛已經跟他報告過啦以前在年改的時候你擔心績效只有2%甚至有時候是負成長可是最近這"},{"start":6129.856,"end":6151.331,"text":"幾年平均都是9%以上我剛也提了你就眼睛蒙起來買那個台灣50就超過7%啦你們精算報告也講只要投資績效超過7%甚至不用撥補你都不會破產啊所以一個是撥補不會破產第二個績效達到7%以上也不會破產第三個也很重要嘛我剛為什麼一開始講浪費"},{"start":6153.874,"end":6175.875,"text":"政府的財政已經變好了你當初在連改的時候你說國家財政困難可是我剛剛已經跟大家講你國家財政現在你的中央政府總預算已經成長那麼多了你又超增了然後你的基金水庫這個退伏基金的小水庫水位也上升了你當初連改的那個基礎已經沒有了嘛要跟上時代啊"},{"start":6177.048,"end":6199.849,"text":"所以你只要減少 現在只要減少浪費因為現在最嚴重的是什麼你每一年都超出那麼多錢中央政府總預算一直在膨脹結果你就發現那個浪費的錢非常非常多你只要把這個浪費的錢省下來不只照顧公企 全國民眾都可以照顧台灣民眾黨這一次針對這次這個修法我們是提兩個非常重要的職業平等 世代是共榮我希望我們再等個"},{"start":6203.999,"end":6227.824,"text":"討論這過程裡面不要製造對立跟仇恨也不要一直放恨恨跟愛我們能不能用愛來解決問題而且世代現在是可以共融的我剛已經講了這次這個修法如果再不趕快修的話在今年不趕快再停砍那造成的結果是什麼你的後遺症就是教育出影響是你的小孩受害教育受害然後你家裡面很多人有年輕人要撫養長輩啊一砍長輩你不是會增加這些年輕人的負擔嗎"},{"start":6233.854,"end":6256.385,"text":"另外整個國家發展公務員人才不進這個公務體系去這受害是全民所以請不要用對立的方式一刀切去看這個問題我們整個世代應該是要共榮的互相是幫助的然後用愛來解決這個問題所以台灣民眾黨今天有兩個很重要的從今年開始不要繼續再砍了可是我們沒有回收"},{"start":6257.625,"end":6277.425,"text":"大家知道嗎 107年開始 砍到現在公教人員的退休金所得替代已經被砍掉三分之一了我們沒有要恢復那三分之一喔只是停住而已喔第二個 物價 我們物價的這個指數因為物價跟通膨很嚴重那我們要求是什麼這跟勞工跟國民年金一樣啊"},{"start":6278.376,"end":6302.089,"text":"我們之前授權給行政體系跟考試院去訂結果每次累積到的5%以上開始檢討或每次連檢討一大堆理由本來物價指數已經上升到5%了結果每次調的可能是2%或者是4%那這次我們就平等嘛依照勞工的方式 依照國民年金你累積超過5% 那你就調那個累積的成長率這樣是平等 而且就比較簡單嘛我們提這兩個修正案 請大家支持 謝謝"},{"start":6306.607,"end":6333.948,"text":"好 接下來請陳委員好 謝謝主席剛剛有在野黨的委員一直說退府基金沒有被撥補一樣 四妖姊姊這個借我一下拜託看一下這本報告書裡面其實就有告訴我們從年改到現在大量的撥補金額都是由政府所提供但是大家一定很好奇我們為什麼需要政府來提供這個撥補重點是因為長期以來"},{"start":6335.169,"end":6362.135,"text":"相關的公教人員從自己的薪水拿出來到所謂這個退府基金裡面其實只有35%而其他的65%是政府早就在幫公教人員出錢了這件事情請大家先釐清這個是第一個部分很重要所以回過頭來看到目前為止政府到底已經撥補多少已經2900多億全部都是政府買單我要再次強調"},{"start":6363.035,"end":6380.625,"text":"全部都是政府買單好 再來所以剛剛講到說你們要扯到跟勞保有關那要扯我想這個奇怪的宇宙無敵自創的財政概念就請你們自己收回去同時我要提醒到底這個退府基金裡面"},{"start":6381.545,"end":6397.857,"text":"要怎麼樣讓他財務平衡收支平衡在大法官會議782號解釋裡面就有說退伏法規定的意旨是當基金的收支有不足的時候政府可以採其他因應措施"},{"start":6399.578,"end":6420.186,"text":"撥補當然是其中一項我再說一次撥補當然是其中一項可是當時大法官也提醒政府說一我們必須要檢討調整撥繳費用的基準也就是說當現在現行的公務人員他們繳的是35%而政府先提供65%的時候這個機制要不要調整這個是可以討論的再來"},{"start":6424.548,"end":6439.365,"text":"有沒有可能延後退休相關的年齡這也是可以討論或者是改用平均本縫的計算或者是調整退休所得替代率這些都是所謂可以用的開源節流的手段但很可能"},{"start":6439.445,"end":6462.09,"text":"可惜的是在野黨的委員不斷製造仇恨不斷製造職業之間的對立不斷製造世代之間的仇恨跟對立甚至把限職的你剛剛說的你不願討論限職人員的困境你們全部談的是退休請問所有現在在場的公務人員真的可以接受嗎我不知道你們的想法從何而來"},{"start":6463.49,"end":6484.803,"text":"但是很明顯的看出這一次所有的在黨委員的提案版本全部都是為了照顧特殊的單一的族群我等一下也想要請這些委員談一談為什麼你們要提出這樣的版本所以我要講的是在年改之後政府甚至把相關年改後所節省的經費全數撥補給基金"},{"start":6488.525,"end":6509.736,"text":"而這個也是政府在做的努力可是我不知道為什麼你們不願意看見蒙其耳朵 蒙其眼睛 蒙其耳朵什麼都不聽 什麼都不看就只講你自己想講的甚至講的資料是錯誤的再來我要講你們一直講物價指數 物價指數你們甚至認為要跟現行的公務人員的調薪來做雙軌的"},{"start":6513.218,"end":6530.768,"text":"調整這個也非常的荒謬事實上在相關的法律當中我們已經提到本來在年改之後退休人員相關所得可以透過CPI的調整來做調整什麼意思在這幾年當中我們已經調整累計高達6%"},{"start":6532.009,"end":6551.523,"text":"也就是說政府並不是沒有考慮到物價指數的因素對於退休人員的照顧而這件事情你們也沒有看見你們甚至亂七八糟的說政府完全沒有考慮到也拜託回去看相關報告最後我要說剛莊瑞雄委員所說的確實就是當這筆錢"},{"start":6553.704,"end":6563.998,"text":"你們不願意去搶其他財政來源你們只想著政府撥補你們只想著幫單一特殊族群爭取所謂的福利的時候事實上真的是全民買單因為你想的是政府撥補而政府的錢從哪裡來就是透過納稅人繳的錢"},{"start":6570.546,"end":6583.453,"text":"這當然就是政府買單完全不符合社會的期待由全體納稅人來負擔財務缺口而製造出這個仇恨跟對立的正是所有提案的在野黨委員"},{"start":6585.171,"end":6600.878,"text":"我想要念一下所有在越黨委員的名字請你們站出來對全台灣人民交代你們提出這樣的提案甚至很多委員寫的版本根本一模一樣我不知道是不是各個委員辦公室還可以這樣複製貼上賴思寶委員張志倫委員張家俊委員徐欣穎委員邱振軍委員國民黨黨團還有林思敏委員"},{"start":6607.641,"end":6635.704,"text":"陳昌明委員 徐宇貞委員黃建豪委員 馬文君委員 傅坤祺委員王宏威委員 黃建斌委員 陳育貞委員羅志強委員 萬美玲委員 廖偉祥委員楊瓊英委員 林倩琦委員當然還有今天的主席 翁曉琳委員還有不要漏了民眾黨黨團你們自己也有提案版本你們就請站出來說清楚到底你們的提案版本是如何創造所謂的共榮以上 謝謝"},{"start":6640.295,"end":6663.631,"text":"我想因為剛好大家都差不多討論的差不多是不是就可以我們就進入到逐條審查陳委員講的一個數據非常非常的離譜跟錯誤我要更正一下我給他一個數據先請張委員先稍等好不好因為我本來是建議說是不是我們待會大體討論完之後就可以大體討論完之後我們就可以進入逐條審查那這樣的話抱歉剛好漏了"},{"start":6670.215,"end":6679.517,"text":"發言那麼因為還是我們還是要照政黨這樣談還是要那個這樣子的話好那剛剛是陳佩瑜委員發言完之後要再輪到你要不要講國民黨或是民眾黨委員對就政黨是是是對雖然有他們有在對那所以林倩琦委員"},{"start":6695.868,"end":6703.213,"text":"我們剛剛其實是依照這樣的順序在進行的我們剛剛其實就已經依照政黨的輪流的順序在進行我們很認真每一個人都來那我們來就不行嗎我們是司法法制委員我們就來啊張委員要發言我只是要更正剛剛陳培宇非常離譜的發言他竟然講說災黨的數據是錯的請問你哪隻眼睛看到公教人員最近補貼了2900多億"},{"start":6724.98,"end":6742.483,"text":"我給你一個明確的 最近這三年 最近這三年107到113給基金的移租款已經累計2590億那個是砍了他們的錢回來的啦 政府的撥補政府的撥補在113年 公務人員50億 交易人員50億114年 交易人員120億 公務人員120億 交易人員74億"},{"start":6752.918,"end":6756.525,"text":"今年 明年要省的這個115年教育人員92億 126億少爺進這三年加起來512你怎麼會冒出一個2900億呢你這樣污衊公教人員嗎第二個"},{"start":6766.496,"end":6769.677,"text":"我們一直在講職業是平等的你剛剛一直在講什麼職業這個對立我們贊成勞工繼續撥補勞工繼續撥補你要看109年跟110年撥補109年勞工撥補200億110年撥補220億110年撥補300億112年撥補450億110年開始最近這三年每一年1300億"},{"start":6794.347,"end":6819.802,"text":"所以光是這七年 撥補超過五千億結果呢 公教人員這邊撥補的只有五百十二億所以我剛剛在提就是說第一個數據不要完全錯誤 不要造謠的同時我們現在只要求職業是平等的我們願意在支持這個勞工繼續撥補的同時請不要苛刻 不要苛刻不要霸凌公教人員該足而撥補的就要撥補只要足而撥補 這個基金就不會破產了好 謝謝"},{"start":6825.691,"end":6827.532,"text":"好 接下來請王一川委員發言好 今天大家談話都很理性因為沒有人大巴巴叫這個是本委員會非常少數見到的其實國家對國家貢獻的公務人員有貢獻勞工有貢獻 老師也有貢獻這次用國民年金的 不去吃陶爐的也有貢獻各家庭的都有貢獻"},{"start":6855.37,"end":6866.899,"text":"不可以說既然像這個什麼民眾黨的這次就說要搞國家公告說勞工要補補你就拿一塊勞工補補要補多少你也沒有啊你也沒有啊你就趕快拿啦你趕快拿 拿一支剛才說這個公告的這個過去包括這個負債什麼補的已經補了五千八百億了這個數字你怎麼知道"},{"start":6883.752,"end":6889.113,"text":"但是對勞工的 這也是五千幾億啦可是兩邊的人數差別二十倍啦 差別二十倍啦你補這個勞工 勞工我們現在是一千四十八萬人左右啦勞工的啦 公投的五十八萬啦結果政府啊 對五十八萬的人補的錢"},{"start":6911.792,"end":6923.204,"text":"交一清空40百萬報的錢是一樣的啦所以勞工啊 勞工報的就是公告人員差不多20分之1啦20分之1啦啊所以你們說這邊要公平這條國家對勞工就不公平啦"},{"start":6930.346,"end":6935.549,"text":"所以不知道之前有這個要改革,對於賣,賣營救時代就開始要改革,賣改不過去,現在有了蔡英文總統蓋的時候,賣也打破了,賣也沒反對,因為這是他一生的志願,賣也沒反對"},{"start":6948.795,"end":6956.52,"text":"所以喔 這撥補大家要公平啦所以現在如果是說什麼每天都在說的公告人員的車輪喔 看勞工的要怎麼撥補啦啊農民啦 農報的這看要怎麼撥補大家也就會來講 這才會公平就是這 台灣民眾黨會說這次要公平 這條我贊成所以就用公平的角度 但是啊"},{"start":6974.571,"end":6982.892,"text":"說這個世代共榮啦 說喔 各位朋友 國民黨說什麼 說喔啊本地啊 這個退休金是要來納大款的啦 現在沒有錢納大款啦退休金是要去製造 哇啦 現在沒辦法每年出去製造啊啊退休金說喔 要不要來聚餐吃飯 說現在也沒有辦法吃飯啦啊說本地的雞湯要五粒 現在說要變三粒啦我聽起來 廣告人員很可憐的啦 很可憐的"},{"start":7004.577,"end":7008.962,"text":"結果現在本地的鐵板 公共公園鐵的鐵板都要五萬幾塊啦你去供給農民聽啦 農民才鐵那位老農啦政府給他一塊五萬幾塊 鐵那位勞工給他五萬幾塊勞工都不用抬款 勞工都不用遊覽勞工都不用去什麼 你們說的什麼 小館聚餐"},{"start":7027.904,"end":7032.285,"text":"我廣告人員 拖延 拖延比這個勞工比農民還要多 拖延很可憐的這個農民跟勞工不是更可憐所以大家說這個要公平 不能這樣整群人要叫政府去拼 跟我們說這幾年我們稅收有夠多 稅收很好 操作基金也操作得很讚這算什麼餓肉呢 這算什麼餓肉吃好啊"},{"start":7056.289,"end":7064.914,"text":"什麼叫做 同時要改革的條件不存在什麼都怎樣就怎樣欸 既然這個超盤基金的賺錢 難道聽你們的鼓勵政府稅收增加 國家的稅收增加 難道聽你們的鼓勵就是說 稅收增加 都去創幣案台北的精華廠就是最大的幣案 電視討論一兩年像這樣站出來說 自己說自己漏氣"},{"start":7086.156,"end":7108.126,"text":"所以我是 妳就從頭講必然 要講台來講必然啊妳如果要講必然 這條叫必 要討論這條叫必然 我已經講了我跟妳講 妳這樣實在沒禮貌 妳的講話我沒跟妳懂我們這司法法治委員會 今天因為有人沒來 今天很平靜的妳不可以代表他 大家在補這個有的沒的"},{"start":7109.229,"end":7116.1,"text":"好不好 我沒有罵你 我講的都說這個制度的事情我們這個委員會都很平靜的今天有人沒來的 事情都要好好改觀到現在你看分配機都要盡雙盡雙"},{"start":7125.049,"end":7150.778,"text":"所以啊 我是覺得這樣啦 大家要討論用數字來討論愛本 報告 社交 大本 大家認真討論不可以說大政敵 開除了彼岸 彼岸啊 如果要說彼岸 現在最大的彼岸 整棟棟的棟主席最大條這都大條的 這臨港要處理 要處理 我們不要處理個案今天要說這個公告英文的事情如果國家要公平對待所有的職業就不應該中華民國政府"},{"start":7153.881,"end":7156.133,"text":"再借錢出來 再借出來來補償"},{"start":7158.215,"end":7178.504,"text":"補分的職業啦 如果要補 農民啦 增加措施的農民啦留感朋友 全規範的留感朋友大家退休念的 也要念講 喔 還要講一個講什麼 現在因為喔 退休的公務人員六七十的退休的公務人員因為退休金額五萬幾塊不夠 做生 現在沒有人要做公務人員這我就聽不懂了 這我聽不懂了 因為他們趕著追求的"},{"start":7187.369,"end":7196.597,"text":"自己的水庫 大家拿一年一年有這群人 因為錢拿到少了 走心 裡面的人不開心這邏輯不會通啊 退休的人 現在零少了所以造成在裡面的人不開心不對啊 在裡面的人 你會說我領工有前途 我在這裡一曲我捏的對不對"},{"start":7211.872,"end":7213.873,"text":"這邏輯聽不懂 我就做這樣的一個這個 我不知道是叫問還是什麼 表達我的意見"},{"start":7230.506,"end":7255.504,"text":"好 謝謝王委員的發言今天王委員也是非常的平和這非常在市委會很難得我們今天有這麼一個很和氣的一個開會的氣氛那接下來就請鄭天才委員發言然後在發言之後呢我想我們已經都進行了差不多將近兩個小時我們休息一下好不好對 因為我想在場的官員還有委員們應該可以稍微休息一下好 然後那就先請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":7258.308,"end":7287.634,"text":"好 召委還有各位委員還有我們各機關的考試院還有行政院各機關這個大家談了很多第一個這個公務人員在職的時候每個月所提撥的跟勞工是不一樣是不一樣這是第一個第二個大家都在引用"},{"start":7289.637,"end":7313.65,"text":"這個馬英九說年金改革馬英九提的年金改革並不是要像現在107年也就是106年開始討論然後通過的這個年金改革所以不要隨便亂引用我們就看蔡英文總統蔡英文總統105年5月20號就任之後"},{"start":7318.803,"end":7347.645,"text":"特別指派陳建仁副總統召開年金改革委員會這個年金改革委員會邀請了各專業人士還有行政院 考試院各部會相關的學者專家開了二十幾次的年金改革的會議"},{"start":7349.878,"end":7376.853,"text":"根據這個年金改革的會議考試院跟行政院共同提出了公務人員的這個退休之前撫恤的這個法例新的法例提出來的版本送到立法院在司法法治委員會討論了非常多次"},{"start":7378.53,"end":7404.936,"text":"而當時因為民進黨是絕對多數所以呢通過了誰的版本呢是通過了段宜康委員的版本段宜康委員他這麼了解這麼熟悉這個相關的這些退休的制度嗎他當然不了解不熟悉很簡單就把這個"},{"start":7406.713,"end":7431.185,"text":"行政院跟考試院所送來的法案在大砍考試院跟行政院送來的法案是小砍他是小砍段宜康委員是大砍所以當初表決就通過了民進黨也就是民進黨通過了"},{"start":7433.619,"end":7457.716,"text":"立法院通過了段宜康的版本就是大砍的版本所以已經實施這麼多年了所以今天要討論的是小砍要停止要停止砍不要再砍了因為已經大砍了這個都是事實所以要請大家能夠"},{"start":7459.403,"end":7487.457,"text":"要了解這個這麼重要的一個過程大家都在談公務員的退休平均是五萬多塊這個是最高的計算所以考試院應該要考試院程序部應該要提出更精準的資料有的十四值等的常務"},{"start":7489.136,"end":7514.661,"text":"次長後常務副主委他因為他提早退休55歲就退休也有將近30年的年資到最後他只領多少你知道嗎4萬多塊他只能領4萬多塊大砍之後他只能領4萬多塊"},{"start":7517.443,"end":7538.435,"text":"所以那個五萬多塊是最高的程序部考試院提供的是最高的所以這個部分是這樣所以大家要很平和的去很仔細的去討論真的是該停侃了現在不是要回復是停侃"},{"start":7540.152,"end":7567.343,"text":"所以這個部分請大家要往這方面去努力去討論而不是我們要回到當時的審查的狀況 通過的狀況然後回到現在應該是要停侃的請大家能夠支持停侃 以上謝謝"},{"start":7569.127,"end":7588.97,"text":"我很短補充一下我們今天要用愛跟共榮來解決問題很短不好意思因為對不起 請尊重主席剛剛說的因為我是想說我們今天的會議已經進行到這個連續將近兩個多小時了然後也這個應該可以"},{"start":7590.271,"end":7611.939,"text":"中間休息一下那麼我想在休息之前好然後剛剛有很多委員對於數字有疑慮這次會議詢問應當讓在場官員在大體的部分第一輪他們也當就委員的發言來陳述一下好嗎讓官員發言一下我剛剛是有宣示說有公告就是說是在"},{"start":7612.919,"end":7634.633,"text":"任天才委員發言之後我們就休息那麼但是因為剛剛其實幾位列席長官坐在這邊然後也想要表達一下意見那我想每一位官員是不是就以三分鐘為限好嗎然後三分鐘講完之後我們中間就休息因為真的大家講不是不是主席這個事情這麼重要為什麼還要限制發言時間給他們盡量講啦我先一個記者會"},{"start":7640.069,"end":7663.797,"text":"沒有原則上以三分鐘為限謝謝好那謝謝各位委員我簡單講整個概念應該回到這是一個專屬的水庫水庫就是參與人應該共同參與不應該再找外面的人來那當初就是因為不足耳提撥所以水庫會破產所以才做年改那年改意思就是說政府也撥補"},{"start":7665.609,"end":7683.387,"text":"已經退休的人或者未來要退休的人大家所得減少一點大家來分攤以前沒有不足而提撥的一個概念就是這麼簡單的概念那如果我們現在再把它停止調降意思就是會讓這個水庫更早就沒了那沒了以後後面那幾十年的錢"},{"start":7685.427,"end":7697.464,"text":"是一個很可怕的一個數字這是一個我先講整個大幹所以全區部為什麼會認為說對我們立場從財務的立場來講是不要讓本來就已經會後面沒有錢的再往更早提早"},{"start":7698.154,"end":7721.706,"text":"那剛剛有委員提到說可不可以靠基金的這個譬如說投資效益能夠保障根據精算報告公務人員要平均9.17%才可能50年沒有破產教育人員要10點幾%可是我們過去其實大部分的基金台灣還有別的一個基金公務人員平均過去30年的基金大概是5點多%的投報率"},{"start":7722.586,"end":7749.646,"text":"我的意思在講是說我們已經很努力那事實上剛剛委員提到說過去年改很有績效因為錢給我們我們有投資得更好能夠讓水位更高那如果你現在要把它停止調降的話那就表示給我們的錢就越來越少那我們就更少基金可以去做投資了我想這是第一個這樣的說明第二個說明是在過去這一年大家在談撥補公保如果要談勞保的撥補就應該對應公保"},{"start":7752.042,"end":7774.561,"text":"那我們的公保過去大概撥了5000政府撥補了5100多億還有700多億會完成撥補等於是政府把所有公保的負債一肩扛起來就要結束了那他應該要對勞保那至於政府對勞退我們退休金的一個撥補從年改到現在我們溢住款大概2591億這個就是政府的撥補"},{"start":7777.591,"end":7797.844,"text":"另外因為新制的缺口確實我們也有512億撥進來了所以未來政府還會繼續扮演這個角色等於是這樣才能夠讓基金能夠即使我們這樣一個撥補基金都會在100我們根據精算在134年是會用清的我想這是一個基本的數字要去做討論那另外一個數字"},{"start":7800.126,"end":7816.042,"text":"剛剛委員有提到說我們平均數那不是那是平均數平均數好像說那是最高數當然不是我們現在平均那算平均所得但是平均所得一定是有人有高有人有低那會應該每一個人個案不一樣但是它絕對不是最高所得我想這個數字應該要先做這樣一個說明所以整體來講"},{"start":7819.065,"end":7835.437,"text":"我們部裡面的態度從基金永續經營的角度來講我們認為過去的年改很有效果應該讓它持續那同時也維持退休人員大概有五萬塊以上的基本的一個所得我想這是一個共好的方式應該要繼續進行好 謝謝施部長那接下來劉秘書長也要發言嗎好 請"},{"start":7843.31,"end":7868.727,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員 大家早安我想退休輔具是考試院的憲法職權所以在這個部分我想我們要很嚴肅地來面對現在各位在討論的議題也很清楚地表達我們的看法我想大家都很關心說對退休人員的所得會不會隨著物價的飛漲降低了他的購買力或生活品質"},{"start":7869.628,"end":7892.053,"text":"我想在上一次年金改革的法案當中我們已經放進去一個機制也就是說每四年檢討或是每滿5%的時候檢討那過去從2018年年改上路之後其實我們調整了兩次那我要稍微修正一下剛剛委員有一個講法我們修正兩次第一次在民國111年的時候我們調整了2%事實上從年改到調整的當時物價的漲幅還不到2%大概1.9那次調了2%"},{"start":7899.656,"end":7913.896,"text":"後來從110年到112年底的時候大概物價就上漲了大概5%多那一次我們調整了4%所以簡單講就是過去這段時間的物價上漲兩次的調整大致上有反映到CPI的漲幅"},{"start":7914.697,"end":7932.9,"text":"雖然不是完全一樣所以就這個部分大家如果覺得這個部分還要再做更多的討論我想這個接下來大家都可以再交換意見但是對於停砍就是對於這個所值替代率停止調降這件事考試院的立場還是希望能夠把原來的現行法律的這段時間把它走完"},{"start":7933.681,"end":7961.845,"text":"那我們的理由我想就剛剛部長已經講到其實就是基金的財務的考量那各位當然都會講說最近基金經營績號不錯國家財政還不錯我要跟各位報告其實精算報告你不管怎麼看它都有一個用期年限用期年限是140或138或者是132不管這個用期年限最後會落在哪一年就表示這個基金沒有在永續它都會用完"},{"start":7963.649,"end":7992.218,"text":"既然這個基金會用完它就像一個水庫啦我們知道20年後這個水庫會用完我們要討論應該是怎麼樣引進新的活水進去而不是一直而不是想著要把它怎麼樣提前再用用得更多一點那大家都會覺得說那個用政府撥補來好來處理就好了因為你只要基金這個經營得好然後政府的財政好就會這個錢就會可以一直進來但是我要提醒大家20年之後退府基金公務員的部分"},{"start":7993.138,"end":8014.171,"text":"每年的收支短差會超過1000億就是你收到的錢基金投資績效賺的錢再拿去比上你要支出的退休金中間的短差會超過1000億因為人口結構的改變教育的部分也是一樣這樣是2000多億那政府不會只背著公教人員"},{"start":8015.912,"end":8034.382,"text":"勞工的部分也是政府的責任未來因為人口結構的改變這個政府的責任會變得非常大所以大家如果用眼前去看說政府的財政責任財務好像還不錯可以處理現在的狀況但是我要提醒大家未來那個洞會更大請大家把眼光放遠一點再來思考這個問題感謝大家好 謝謝接下來請任市長要發言"},{"start":8041.926,"end":8066.236,"text":"謝謝主席各位我想主要是講兩個概念一個就是限職跟退休的事實上當初年改的一個很重要假如我退休的每一年我隨著我公務人員的薪水來調整的話然後再加入所謂的他的CPI針對退休人員的CPI再去做增加的話"},{"start":8067.496,"end":8088.67,"text":"會造成一個很大的問題我限職在工作的人 領的薪水我增加的幅度會比退職的少這對我們限職的公務人員來講是一個非常非常嚴重的打擊所以這個一定不能再去把它恢復到原來當初解決的問題就是說我拿的越拿越多我拿一個會掉 拿一個會掉"},{"start":8093.933,"end":8115.961,"text":"這樣對縣市的事實上不公平 而且還有一個這裡面會有一個問題很多人提早 會提早退因為他覺得兩邊的薪水差不多 他就提早退陳土大家也知道現在的出生率低到公家機關的尤其在警消人員 他退的會更多會造成警力的一個缺口 我想這是一個議題那第二個議題就是"},{"start":8121.086,"end":8141.741,"text":"剛才秘書長也提到很重要的事實上我們現在面臨的就是我們每一年的提撥力太低提撥力太低就如同剛才張其凱委員所提的雖然我們投報率有到7%可是因為提撥力太低你這個水庫的進水量太少"},{"start":8142.521,"end":8169.638,"text":"水庫淨水量少 可是你流出去的多那你長期下來一定阿伯阿水貴一定越來越少除非你提供力又會拉上來拉上來的話 很多限職的公務人員對他來講又是另外一個很大的負擔所以大家必須要考慮到20年後 50年後我們整個政府的各大基金到底我們現在的缺口以我們初步推估現在"},{"start":8172.399,"end":8194.511,"text":"這三類人員的潛藏負債大概三兆你如果再往後拉的話對未來的年輕世代我覺得我們是在消耗他的我們現在領的錢事實上他們未來會去負擔我覺得對世代公平會有問題請大家參考 謝謝現在我們就休息"},{"start":8202.321,"end":8205.66,"text":"我們就原則上就先休息十分鐘好了"},{"start":9329.966,"end":9352.029,"text":"好 各位好 繼續開會那麼在繼續開會之前呢我再做一次會議程序的預告那依照開會通知今天上午會議的進行時間是到12點那我們在12點之前就進行大體討論那麼中間會休息等到下午2點半的時候我們就進行這個逐條審查不知道在座的有沒有意見"},{"start":9354.085,"end":9379.905,"text":"先大體完再說 有意見就講完盡量好不好 我盡量把它講完我想我們這邊的話 我們就剛剛我們保留 我們盡量會盡量基本上因為我們大體討論已經好幾輪了那麼我們原則上就是在12點之前就完成大體討論然後下午2點半就繼續我盡量早上講完會審查如果有意見的話 請"},{"start":9390.822,"end":9400.654,"text":"所以吳委員對我剛的宣告是有意見嗎先保留先保留先發言完如果12點之前搞不好12點之前我們就講完了搞不好就更快嘛對不對先讓我講吧那如果這樣的話那我們就休息了我們發言啦不要休息幹嘛"},{"start":9410.544,"end":9419.847,"text":"你們現在是怎樣不敢提停職討論直接用休息不給討論嗎我們就繼續討論嘛沒有 因為我們剛剛其實私底下大家有稍微討論了然後本來認為其實我們大體討論已經進行了超過四輪以上的發言所以這個12點之前就進行大體討論那麼如果說大家認為大體討論還不夠的話那我們就休息"},{"start":9439.813,"end":9443.056,"text":"為什麼要休息 我們要繼續討論為什麼要休息讓我們繼續講 也許我們講完覺得OK我先講 你講 你可以啦你剛剛講過了 換我了吧 可以啦謝謝 剛剛主席已經宣告了啦剛剛是我們大家也在溝通"},{"start":9457.472,"end":9481.923,"text":"大體討論已經講了好幾輪了已經兩個多小時了基本上也充分討論了我也知道民進黨基本上你們有你們的立場也尊重啦但主席既然已經說希望大體討論到12點那如果你們覺得是沒有這個必要的話那我們就下午遵照主席說下午兩點再來開會那不需要在這邊繼續耗著啦所以我也支持主席按照主席才是吧"},{"start":9483.257,"end":9486.86,"text":"好 那我們就現在休息我們要討論就不給討論你們不給討論又來了不給討論又來了王小林委員不給討論又來了羅智強委員不給討論又來了"},{"start":9504.735,"end":9508.539,"text":"你剛剛還說我們私下討論你剛剛私下討論就已經答應吳思瑤委員了主席你剛剛答應了又不敢喊停止討論只敢喊休息不敢實施討論剛剛點名的委員也都沒有來發言有時間休息沒時間討論汪小玲 羅志強有時間"},{"start":21257.878,"end":21282.625,"text":"好各位委員好我們現在就繼續開會那麼由於在上午大體討論的發言時間已經進行了兩個多小時而且有多次的政黨交叉發言所以依照會議休息之前本席所做的宣告那下午兩點半我們就繼續開會進入主條討論那麼現在是否就停止大體討論進行主條討論進行主條討論"},{"start":21286.553,"end":21310.928,"text":"主席請會議詢問優先好不好等一下有意義因為我想先會議詢問優先因為主席在上午的宣告之前你有先同意讓我在大體要再發言這是您的promise那後來沒有想到你們也同意大體要繼續嘛"},{"start":21313.041,"end":21321.2,"text":"那結果你就休息了那是不是我在爭取我的大題討論您承諾我要讓我那一輪至少我要講完"},{"start":21322.352,"end":21333.135,"text":"好 因為我想在上午的時候我想我們已經很清楚的就說是我們在大庭討論當時是說在12點之前結束但是後來這個委員基本上也不支持那我們認為說這個樣子的情況其實今天委員已經發表好幾次的發言了我們討論充分因為有一些是要回應後面的委員的說法在場有異議的話我們就"},{"start":21350.979,"end":21374.057,"text":"停止讨论的这个动议是优先处理的那么现在呢你们现在停止讨论什么你要提同意讨论什么大体啊停止大体讨论下午的会议开始连讨论都还没开始就要停止讨论这有没有太离谱了那你好歹让我们大体讨论一下你再停止讨论行使你的权利啊"},{"start":21375.178,"end":21391.628,"text":"現在是下午開會正開始而已我們都還沒有開始你就看你討論主席宣布是大體討論你要不要讓我多講你自己在那邊提議你意義的你意義的他提到12點是你意義的然後就休息啦下午就今天來處理啊我要繼續討論嘛"},{"start":21399.273,"end":21402.897,"text":"有意義主席我們說有意義主席我們說有意義你不要假裝沒有聽到這麼大聲"},{"start":21421.995,"end":21425.859,"text":"下午的會開到現在討論不到三分鐘我們就現在進行表決為什麼這麼害怕討論呢為什麼這麼害怕討論呢因為大家討論這是一個辯證的問題你們後來的提問我們認為要再說明嗎"},{"start":21443.876,"end":21450.46,"text":"這麼害怕討論請問在場委員有沒有異議我們現在就採用舉手表決在表決之前先清點在場的出席委員人數請先清點在場出席這麼害怕討論現在在場有九位委員今天下午的會議剛開始是連討論都還沒有開始"},{"start":21467.651,"end":21470.752,"text":"請兩位先暫停我們現在要開始進行表決贊成動議案的請舉手贊成林倩琦所提出的動議我看吳委員這樣一個要求也不過分"},{"start":21488.576,"end":21491.278,"text":"大體討論 再給他講一輪他一個人也不會佔用大家多久的時間那反對者先請舉手因為我們現在這個下午這個會議才剛開始剛開始 你早上說要大體討論的事情你就直接做你要做的事情反對者三人"},{"start":21511.468,"end":21521.43,"text":"是兩位吧他們兩個也是人好嗎那舉手表決結果在場出席委員9人贊成者6人 反對者3人贊成者討論都還沒有開始就要提案暫停討論這真的很難看啊好我們就先停止大庭討論待會吳委員您可以將您的意見在主條審查的時候再進行的盡情發揮好嗎好"},{"start":21538.339,"end":21554.019,"text":"好 那麼我們現在就開始進行逐條討論那麼我們繼續進行逐條討論那本案系部分的修正總共會處理五條還有兩個副表"},{"start":21556.86,"end":21571.111,"text":"那麼第三條是委員張志倫等19人提案第八條是委員張志倫我們就一條一條所以首先我們先處理第三條張志倫委員提案的條文在場委員有沒有人要發表意見先請吳委員"},{"start":21581.108,"end":21602.463,"text":"首先因為提案委員是張志倫委員我是非常希望能夠聽到提案委員對於他提案增列第三項的說明或者是在場同黨的委員可以替提案委員他不在場替他說明他的提案是要排除這個84年以前已經退休的這些部分我不知道他的提案的緣由是什麼"},{"start":21603.644,"end":21620.482,"text":"那我要在這個部分要說明一下我要補充的是今天上午有很多的委員都提到說因為物價上漲所以要停砍這個公教的所得替代率的這個說法它到底正不正確合不合理"},{"start":21621.523,"end":21645.804,"text":"其實在上一次討論我們在條文裡頭已經設了一個GDP 5%上下5%還有每四年要調整一次其實已經入法了而且說已經這六年來對不起我們兩度的這個調配合GDP已經調整了6% UP 6%了所以說以物價上漲就要停侃所得替代率的這一個大家可以看我手上有一個最新的民調"},{"start":21646.785,"end":21658.536,"text":"有50.7%是反对这个说法所以早上在党委员所提的这个立论反映在修法的条文它显然是多数的民意是不认同的"},{"start":21659.246,"end":21687.447,"text":"那在党委员在大体讨论的时候也提到说因为公教砍太凶造成报考公教的人员变少这是罗志祥委员一直在提的现在来报考公教的人员锐减就是因为退休金的问题是这样吗我也分享给大家最新的一个民调55.5%并不同意是因为砍年金造成公教报考"},{"start":21688.41,"end":21714.533,"text":"的人數變少這是民意的數字而這55.5%當中國民黨支持者是45%民眾黨有民眾黨支持者的政黨傾向是57.1是反對這個說法那接下來呢更重要的是上午大家都講到要拉平其他不同職業別的退休保障"},{"start":21715.669,"end":21742.144,"text":"那么因为现在如果停砍了年金那造成我们未来拧公教的退休俸依旧是远高于老保国民年金跟老农津贴的问民调来问国人接不接受这个行业不均的问题的时候呢60.4%是不支持这样子的论调"},{"start":21743.084,"end":21762.692,"text":"所以是2比1超過百分之將近30的比例民意告訴我們對於這樣的利潤人民認為要追求行業間的公平才是重要最後一個我也要分享因為上午沒有機會分享我要強調這是最新的民調我想要分享大家在"},{"start":21763.152,"end":21784.317,"text":"主條討論的時候有個民意的參照總體而言到底大家認為年金改革要繼續進行或是停止年改大家就看這一個最終的數字59.7%也就是六成的民意認為年金改革要繼續只有31.7%的國人認為年改應當來檢討"},{"start":21790.899,"end":21818.674,"text":"所以也幾乎是2比1的比例所以我們現在住到逐條的討論我們還是要回到因為條文一下去這一個我當然知道在野黨委員也只是把條文的討論當作過水啦反正你們就是過過過然後就朝野協商一個月冷凍期過了院會就表決那院會表決的時候呢還不曉得會不會又拿出什麼最高機密的黑箱版本不曉得"},{"start":21819.514,"end":21827.837,"text":"但是在逐條討論我們就必須把這個前提性的問題再一次跟在野黨的委員做辯證為什麼我們需要討論來你討論你發言我辯駁或是我發言你辯駁我們彼此來比較PK誰的說法正確與否這才是專業的立法委員不害怕討論不害怕去辯證的這個重要性"},{"start":21844.324,"end":21858.404,"text":"那我們身為民意代表我們的底氣是什麼就是我們依據是民意所以民意告訴我們六成主張年改要繼續那為什麼在野黨的委員要執意來繼續強推"},{"start":21861.408,"end":21890.014,"text":"年金改革喊卡喊停的这个版本呢所以民调的部分早上因为没有机会讲我一定要在进入逐条的时候利用我发言的时间来跟大家做说明那几个重要的数字我看到提案委员张委员到了也许他等一下可以说明一下他在第三条来增列第三项的理由是什么我最后要再做一个上午有些委员发言的一些错误来提出一下正确的数字哦"},{"start":21890.974,"end":21913.162,"text":"因為大家都在比勞保我們都支持國家在有限的資源可以去幫助勞保更多幫助國民年金更多幫助老農更多民進黨也負責任的提出了不同的法案在對應於其他職業別他們的退休金的保障民進黨有行動有法案"},{"start":21913.982,"end":21931.177,"text":"但是絕對不是因為說要改勞保要改國保所以說公教的年改就要喊卡這當中到底它的關係性是什麼我們要想方設法去補足其他行業的不平不均"},{"start":21932.418,"end":21953.353,"text":"不正是應當不讓這個不平不均擴大嗎不是正應當去彌平這個國家年金的缺口而不是擴大缺口如果年金公報公教的部分的缺口擴大了以後要拿的是公帑來補它是所有的納稅人買單那麼我們"},{"start":21955.775,"end":21984.674,"text":"更沒有能力去照顧勞保農保跟國民年金保險的國人們不是應當這樣邏輯才順嗎那早上有很多委員說勞保撥補了五千八百億公教址撥補五千一百五一七零一哇 我們照顧勞保比較多不要忘了這個前提是什麼我們勞保的人數是一千零五十萬左右"},{"start":21986.035,"end":21998.531,"text":"我們公教保險的人數是58萬人相差20倍所以換算下來國家即使這些年我們用撥補"},{"start":22001.549,"end":22009.397,"text":"這個勞保的部分5170億換算1000多萬個勞工平均每一個勞工只獲得國家撥補是49332但是5800億撥補給58萬的公教人員換算出來每一位公教人員獲得國家撥補是100萬"},{"start":22025.833,"end":22052.612,"text":"100萬比上4933249332對於勞工20倍的天差地別所以我一定要來把上午幾位委員選擇性的去揭露了一些片面的數字而不去看待整個政策的原貌當我們在討論勞保跟公保的撥補總額的時候你當然要計算它的人數嘛"},{"start":22053.533,"end":22065.223,"text":"所以撥補勞工每人49332可是這幾年對於公教人員每年每位不是每年對不起每位的撥補已經累積了來到100萬了所以我要透過我"},{"start":22066.665,"end":22085.246,"text":"發言的時間我再次強調主席不是你們不想聽討論或是討論道理講不贏然後就表決暫停討論不敢讓真理越辯越明如果你們認為你們捍衛提出來的是真理是硬道理的話為什麼害怕討論害怕辯論呢"},{"start":22089.011,"end":22114.622,"text":"所以現在進入主條只有五個條文我不曉得翁委員翁昭偉打算用幾分鐘的時間把這五個條文都你們想通過或者是最好通通通過或者是那就都保留打包協商一切都是過水就好不要用這樣的心態在面對我們的工作早上11點19分主席就宣布休息放飯"},{"start":22116.218,"end":22138.145,"text":"這是什麼能撈就撈 能混就混的心態今天下午兩點半開始開會主席不到五分鐘 連討論都還沒開始就居然宣布國民黨提案停止討論連討論都沒有開始 就停止討論要對社會交代 要對人民交代"},{"start":22143.564,"end":22166.495,"text":"民眾黨的委員黃國昌總召早上沒有出現剛剛下午終於出現了他出現的功能是什麼就是配合國民黨委員提案停止討論他舉手表決終止了年改重要的透明公開的討論就是黃國昌來開這場會做到現場前後不到三分鐘舉手表決多一票"},{"start":22167.855,"end":22192.471,"text":"幫助這個討論不能被進行這就是黃國昌今天對於年改走回頭路的貢獻好回到第三條江志倫委員提案委員到了好您陣列的第三項那就請您再具體的說明一下然後也請我們這個市部長或者是劉秘書長可以來回應一下這個條文的意涵因為您這樣子"},{"start":22193.55,"end":22216.615,"text":"我想尊重一下提案委員讓他說明我們可以更清楚他提案的意志因為現在是進入到逐條審查不過因為剛剛吳委員有要求說要給他大體討論時間所以我們就給吳委員更多的時間因為待會可能會要討論的舉手發言的委員人數多所以待會"},{"start":22217.415,"end":22241.684,"text":"要發言的委員請到主席台前面來進行登記那麼並且依照我們立法院議事規則30條的規定我這邊先宣告發言時間每位委員的發言時間為三分鐘那麼希望今天大家能夠在討論相關議案的時候更有效率然後一些話其實不挑討論也要限制三分鐘一個人那可以發言幾次對"},{"start":22255.111,"end":22260.314,"text":"每一條都登記原則上以一次為限 謝謝每一條都要登記"},{"start":22281.244,"end":22289.575,"text":"並再一次講就可以了並再一次講一次你說五條一次"},{"start":22478.186,"end":22486.337,"text":"好 那我們現在就先進行第三條的主條審查發言那首先先請莊越雄委員三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":22487.626,"end":22507.603,"text":"很快 謝謝趙委我想今天國民黨的委員也都到了今天我覺得比較可惜的地方就是說全序部提出的這三份的一個報告我覺得在野黨委員應該再去認真的再把它看一看這個社會裡面再強調一次我們如果不能讓繳稅的人"},{"start":22511.467,"end":22535.869,"text":"繳這個稅金的時候繳得心甘情願舒服一點的話繳稅的人比領的人還要痛苦的話這個制度就有問題了以權序部這三個報告裡面連QA也都有財務報告試算也全部都有事實上我們今天在討論的這幾個條文就是月退休所得超過所得替代率的上限是不是要逐年去做一個扣減的部分"},{"start":22536.59,"end":22541.912,"text":"那災難的朋友呢 我們其實話大家應該來講清楚啦一直在提到說政府沒有為年金基金編的預算沒有去改善這個財務這個其實是錯誤的一個講法啦那我們在做整個逐年在扣減的時候它扣減它有它的法定的順序第一個你一定是先去扣優存的利息那這個部分政府去提撥然後救治年資月的補償金是政府也去提撥"},{"start":22562.1,"end":22576.966,"text":"就是月退休金政府提拔你新制的月退休金的部分才是屬於個人自體的一個部分也就是說四項裡面的前三項都是由各級政府的預算去支出並不是由公教人員自行來做一個負擔"},{"start":22578.647,"end":22592.611,"text":"那我看從退伍基金的資料裡面從2018年年金改革上路以來到2024年政府累計移住的金額是其實是2590億其中的85%也就是2197億元是政府來提撥的一個經費也就是說今天早上吳宗憲委員所提到的大法官施政的一個議旨裡面你說要信賴原則那你也去承認說"},{"start":22607.043,"end":22633.661,"text":"快破產的情況之下財務不足的情況之下政府要變通的一個方法也就是說政府透過預算的一個挹注穩定基金的一個財務還有政府跟現職跟退休人員共同來分擔這樣的一個風險政府最後才去履行最後的一個支付保障的一個責任來確保這整個制度的永續的一個運作我相信這個才是這幾個條文在講的年改以後你真正財務結構而不是說政府不出錢"},{"start":22637.123,"end":22659.531,"text":"你停止了水庫的挹注的一個總量領的人越多然後你繳的人越少你投資效益早上在黨委員在批評的你們講說投資效益太過低了你如果說你領的人越多你繳的人越少你投資效益再高也沒有用你基金這29年來平均收益是5.27%"},{"start":22662.452,"end":22669.997,"text":"29年來的一個平均那你近5年更高達9.36%這個其實是算蠻高啦我個人都認為蠻高可是呢你如果連本金到最後都沒有你怎麼去做投資啊所以今天這個守得替代率租賃扣減的部分我請在野黨的朋友啊把權序部這幾本啊財務的一個試算跟QA把它看完以後啊我想再來做一個理性的討論可能會好一點啊否則我們也可以預測到那個結果但是這樣子是好嗎"},{"start":22696.215,"end":22712.387,"text":"好 謝謝莊委員的發言那麼我現在先依照這個議事規則29條來宣告有關於登記發言的時間我們以3點10分為準3點10分之後我們就截止發言登記那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":22714.056,"end":22739.521,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實我們要五個條文要發言我也登記了五次事實上我只講一個條文就可以把五個條文的問題都解決其實今天我們老實說各政黨有自己的立場但是我們的目標應該一致的就是希望公教退府基金不要提早破產那今天民進黨的主張是認為說如果把焦點放在所得替代率逐年降低才可以避免我們退府基金破產"},{"start":22740.501,"end":22755.94,"text":"但是國民黨主張的意思是說縱使不再降低所得替代率只要提高政府撥補我們一樣可以讓基金能夠持續經營好 那我們就持平來看第93條大家看螢幕其實我們的退府基金的"},{"start":22756.921,"end":22777.035,"text":"退府條例啊 他93條怎麼寫 他分成三段第二段他說 前項退府制度之建立至退府基金用慶年度提前之財務缺口由政府依退府基金財務精算結果 自前項退府制度實施之日起分年編列預算撥款補助之"},{"start":22777.856,"end":22783.241,"text":"大家常常說撥補撥補 撥補的法律條文來自於93條的撥款補助 簡稱撥補已經明明白白寫了政府對我們的退伏基金會依93條來撥補所以大家擔心什麼呢 我先講幾個不同第一個不同 為什麼政府獨獨對各種的職業年金只有對公教退伏有撥補"},{"start":22800.675,"end":22809.942,"text":"因為軍公教是政府僱用的人員今天勞工人數高達1048萬但是勞保條例我們目前沒有任何一條66條到69條沒有要求政府要撥補但是政府實質上還是有幫忙怕勞保基金因為他的財務缺口我們有撥補"},{"start":22822.452,"end":22838.531,"text":"但是今天對於公叫退府來講93條為什麼要撥補呢請看大家看第一項第一項是中華民國12年7月1日以後出任公元者其退府制度由主管機關重新建立並另以法律定制其實過去常常來說確定"},{"start":22840.493,"end":22860.529,"text":"提撥制 確定給付制關鍵就在這裡因為從112年成為政府公務人員的人不再貢獻他的退撫基金在這個退撫基金當中所以這個基金會沒有再新的收入進來因此政府就必須想辦法讓這個退撫基金可以永續所以才有撥補的義務是來自於這裡"},{"start":22863.431,"end":22873.242,"text":"那請教一下那為什麼這些新進的公務員112年他不再加入了因為原來的退伍基金當中就是因為制度的轉變所以沒有新的錢進來我們就必須欠欠開大家再看第三項"},{"start":22878.988,"end":22893.639,"text":"行政院政府依前項規定完成撥補後因依退伍基金財務精算結果接續分年編列預算撥補現金退伍基金以健全基金財務看到沒有就算是把前面112年任公務員的人的錢不再進來"},{"start":22896.98,"end":22920.473,"text":"政府一樣要對現在這個基金的繼續經營主席再給一點時間他要繼續撥補所以其實政府對我們退府基金公交退府是有持續的在幫幫他的延續他的財務但是問題來了這個水庫已經沒有新的公務員在提前進來了已經進來的錢要繼續給這些在職的人在退休的人要領到他結束那這時候我們有幾個"},{"start":22921.494,"end":22941.769,"text":"那個我們的這個委員張委員他提到說這個基金操作績效良好了我們會賺點年金很好但是呢我們今天的最大問題如果替代率沒有繼續調降到合理的水準我們出去的水會出去的更多我們已經沒有水進來了只能靠這個基金的營運來貼補還有靠政府的我們的撥補"},{"start":22944.571,"end":22961.028,"text":"那政府的撥補其實就是全民來補貼就是納稅人補貼那我們看看納稅人最多是誰是勞工啊勞工是1048萬啊但是這些貢獻稅金的勞工政府對他的勞保基金有沒有法律上規定政府要撥補呢沒有"},{"start":22962.85,"end":22976.834,"text":"沒有 所以其實從平心而論我對於全國的軍公教人員 公教人員尤其是現在退休的 已經在領退府的我真的要跟各位這些工作的夥伴說政府對各位的照顧責任93條訂得很清楚"},{"start":22978.855,"end":22992.773,"text":"但是就是因為這個責任的關係我們也不能任性的把自己從這個基金提領走的錢因著過去所得替代率的太高讓它提早的耗盡不然的話就是由全民來貼補那我回去回來那勞工怎麼辦"},{"start":22995.416,"end":23021.001,"text":"國民黨的朋友也說要照顧勞工啊勞工為什麼今天他的勞保基金他造成他水位不足的原因跟公教不太一樣我們公教人員的人數維持在40多萬沒有太大的變化但我們的勞工的人數勞保基金的投入人數是一直在降低因為少子化所以勞保基金的主要虧損不完全跟公教退伏一樣我們公教退伏是什麼存的少"},{"start":23021.961,"end":23040.527,"text":"領的多提存的少提領的多但是勞保基金的一個不足主要是什麼新進的工作人口加勞保的少退休去領勞保退休給付的多這兩者是截然不同的所以我真的要懇請公教朋友來體恤一下政府來說軍公教農"},{"start":23041.547,"end":23064.201,"text":"都是我們要照顧的對象但是我們也希望照顧農民照顧勞工對於政府直接僱用的公教人員我們政府已經特別照顧了93條已經有明確的說要撥補了但是我們不要加重這個負擔讓政府有餘力去照顧勞工照顧農民我還是要強調一次我們這個退伍基金退伍條例啊93條已經在各種保險當中"},{"start":23067.163,"end":23094.081,"text":"對公教人員特別好了所以我們請大家共同讓這個基金可以永續經營 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那還是請大家能夠嚴格遵守三分鐘的這個發言三分鐘沒有我說三分鐘我沒有說三十分鐘抱歉所以你們可能沒有聽清楚那接下來請陳培鈺委員發言好 我們很可惜沒有辦法先聽到張委員為什麼要提這一條第三條應該其實剛剛主席您應該先讓他說"},{"start":23095.682,"end":23116.553,"text":"如果是這樣的話張委員可以願意先談嗎你要先說嗎但是等一下我們其他根據這一條有發言當屆委員還是可以我們就還是按照程序走那請陳美語委員先發言沒有沒有我剛剛是請我剛剛再說一次我剛剛是說因為提案委員他還沒有說明"},{"start":23117.961,"end":23135.758,"text":"好來那謝謝主席我就先講喔因為我們看到張委員第三條的修法他多增加了第三項其實我們我認為他可能搞錯這兩個水庫基本上是不一樣的水庫因為呢84年以前退休的人員他們是N級制也就是說他的錢現在全部都是政府在出"},{"start":23136.198,"end":23150.767,"text":"他並沒有繳納保費而且他也是高所得替代率甚至他是比較短的工作年資而且是比較早的退休年齡也就是如果他的餘命很長他其實是領得更久更長更多而不用出錢"},{"start":23151.627,"end":23172.08,"text":"所以我不知道詹委員您是不是國民黨團呢在討論的時候是不是發現自己會把退伏基金這個水庫給用完怕這些84年以前退休的人沒有錢所以你就提了這個修法版本否則他其實照理說跟你們今天自己提的這個退伏條例其實不同一件事情因為他不是同一個水庫所以我剛才會說為什麼詹委員沒有先說明不過"},{"start":23172.58,"end":23192.507,"text":"我還是要先提醒張委員您的修法版本我們目前看起來他應該不是在同一個水庫那既然您要提到所謂的所得替代率我們其實要提醒大家關鍵不只是所得替代率的部分而是實質的月退休所得到底夠不夠支應現在的生活我覺得這也才是全台灣國人要問"},{"start":23194.228,"end":23217.304,"text":"这些提案的委员所谓的十之月退休所得大家现在看到的数字好像就只有所谓的60% 70%可是大家不要忘记当时公示在计算的时候我念给大家听公教人员退休所得替代率的计算公式是用退休时候的本奉也就是年功奉的两倍乘以年资再乘以2%那也因为退休者本奉的两倍"},{"start":23221.207,"end":23242.999,"text":"比照現在的等級也就是現職公務人員的等級他的月薪平均會高出1.19倍因此年改前退休的人就是剛剛張委員您所關心的具有35年年資就算到118年月退休所得替代率是60%可實際上他所拿到的月退休金是71%你帳面上只有看到60%可是"},{"start":23245.62,"end":23261.567,"text":"你沒有把公視納進去看他其實是71%根本不是如同你們所宣稱的60%而且逐年往下我覺得這個數字非常的荒謬要拜託在黨委員看清楚所以如果根據你們的提案版本提早到115年就停止調降替代率增到66%之後其實他算出來的數字他拿到的錢是78%而66跟78他多少12%"},{"start":23268.55,"end":23295.349,"text":"所以當你們口口聲聲說本來可以吃五顆蛋現在只剩三顆蛋的時候你們根本就沒有顧及到數字背後它呈上的倍率我再強調一次替代率看到66%實際上它拿到是78%而你看到60其實它實際上拿到是71%所以才會出現早上我們說的那個數字是如此的驚人平均是五萬多塊我再說一次平均是五萬多塊以上所以如果根據你們的版本再提早到112年"},{"start":23297.25,"end":23325.48,"text":"替代率是69%可是他實際上拿到是81.6%請張委員算一算81跟69差多少都差百分之十幾這個中間數字差這麼大所以請不要再只有停留在看所謂替代所得率的調降這件事情請把相關乘上相關1.19倍這個數字算下去才是正確他所拿到所謂的實質月退休所得額這才是最重要的謝謝"},{"start":23327.049,"end":23349.807,"text":"好謝謝陳委員那接下來請吳思堯委員發言時間三分鐘再次要挑戰一下那個主席的主持如果不會主持可以問一下我們很多比較資深有當過交委的委員的經驗司法法治委員會因為我當立委三屆我也問了同仁雖然我之前在教育文化委員會從來沒有這三屆12年"},{"start":23351.192,"end":23358.768,"text":"沒有任何一個召委在主持條文的逐條審查是限定每個委員只發言三分鐘而且只有一輪前所未見"},{"start":23359.921,"end":23382.928,"text":"我剛剛也翻了這個議事規則委員會的討論不管是個委員會組織法或是立法院議事規則從來沒有給予主席這種過當的權限我再次說就是害怕討論道理講不贏然後就來阻絕別人的討論這實在是讓人看破卡丘那回到那個委員所提的張志倫委員的第三條他整理了第三項我們就條文論條文"},{"start":23384.168,"end":23412.371,"text":"虽然在没有这个提案委员说明的状况之下我们很难探知他内心的世界为什么要这样提但我尽可能的来提出我的这个建议不采用的几个意见这四个意见第一个呢我们退服法在我们2018年完成年改之后其实呢在这个年改之后的就是在这个年改之后之前已经退休的公务人员本来就不是第三条的适用对象"},{"start":23413.152,"end":23437.768,"text":"所以說原本的這群人他的退休事項都本來就是依原來的退休法令的相關規定所以在這裡增列第三條的第三項在修法的法制上其實是沒有必要的這是第一個理由第二個理由呢我就說我很想探尋提案委員的內心世界所以我很認真的去看了他的提案的立法說明"},{"start":23438.749,"end":23459.582,"text":"那我想他可能是呢為了要排除84年以前的以退人員的適用退服法來扣減退休金的規定這是他想做的但是呢委員也修錯條了如果你是要達到這個目的的話您應當去退服法第37條就是後面會討論到的條文去規定"},{"start":23460.422,"end":23480.73,"text":"他的排除條款應當是修37條我第三個反對的理由呢就是說年改我們調教所的替代率其實是一體適用的這是公平性的不管是以退休者或是未來即將退休者還要一體適用這就是維持我們改革公平正義所在如果你在這個條文"},{"start":23481.75,"end":23497.545,"text":"增列第三項去單獨排除了84年已退休的人員的適用怎麼講對於其他的公職人員公務人員都是不公平而且會要求比照這就是比不公平更不公平的地方"},{"start":23498.346,"end":23524.752,"text":"這是我第三個反對的理由第四個理由就是說現行的退伏法對於早年就已經退休的這些公務人員其實都有特別的配套機制的設定來想方設法維持他們的基本生活所需我要強調這些配套規定是維持這些早期退休的公務人員朋友們的基本生活所需而不是讓他"},{"start":23525.692,"end":23545.722,"text":"去滿足他可能要出國旅遊繳貸款這些顯然非基本生活所需之外這當然是法律做不到的所以說如果說要硬改這一項我覺得就是怎麼講呢本來就已經有規定然後你在這裡排除簡單講就是多此一舉"},{"start":23547.071,"end":23567.932,"text":"所以我的四句話四個結論增修第三條的第三項沒必要修作條不公平多此一舉所以我反對這個條文的修法如果張委員真的要修那也應當在等一下37條的部分可以把您想要修的部分容納在正確的條文裡頭"},{"start":23568.755,"end":23578.657,"text":"这是我努力去理解您修法的意旨虽然在您没有说明之前我们实在很难知道您这个不明就离的修法到底为何而来"},{"start":23581.067,"end":23592.871,"text":"好謝謝吳委員的發言我想我擔任司委會的這個新召委應該要有新氣象所以過去的舊習惡習不應該再充分討論是惡習充分討論是惡習你們接受這種說法嗎你們"},{"start":23603.995,"end":23609.041,"text":"又消音了 你們接受這種說法嗎你不要去影響到其他委員的發言請審發會委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":23618.45,"end":23643.64,"text":"主席 各位同仁我想這個有關於公教人員的年薪改革這個議題其實在我們司法法制委員會已經討論非常多次非常多次今天早上整個廣泛討論的過程我本來也準備要講一些話但是我後來聽這樣子大家的討論我覺得其實我們該討論的真的都沒有討論"},{"start":23645.293,"end":23653.926,"text":"所以我就覺得說整個討論我聽到的國民黨民眾黨的委員就在整個發言的過程中大概就是"},{"start":23656.125,"end":23680.365,"text":"只要達成兩個目的第一個就是妖魔化年金改革這幾個字年金改革就是混蛋年金改革導致公務員報考少年金改革怎麼樣第一個先抹黑年金改革這四個字再來就是扣民進黨的帽子民進黨高級 年金改革大級民進黨欺負公務人員民進黨欺負公教人員大概就是"},{"start":23681.065,"end":23706.851,"text":"主旨就是这样子虽然每一个人口才都很好都有各种各式各样的方式来妖魔化年金改革来扣这个民进党的帽子不过这个我们也很多委员都回应了这也讨论这么多了这个大家也都是历史事实我们也不用再去列举了这个年金改革事实上真的启动年金改革高举年金改革大旗的他就是从"},{"start":23707.691,"end":23725.358,"text":"馬英九總統開始從當時的行政院長江亦華當時的考試院長關忠就是從他們開始啟動的從他們開始為什麼年輕人要改革今天早上大家所罵的這些話全部都是在罵他們三個開始至於未來的方案是怎麼樣是大家討論出來一個方案要怎麼樣改革"},{"start":23726.567,"end":23753.024,"text":"那我就覺得說這個我也不想再講了我們回到我認為說我們在這在現在廣泛討論過了現在進行逐條我覺得至少我們應該要面對幾個問題就是大家在今天要表決要修法你們要表決要修法之前我覺得有一個最基本的應該要有一些問題應該要討論清楚應該至少在討論我們最後立法院司法法治委員會決定之前要讓國人了解我們討論的過程是這些就是說"},{"start":23756.246,"end":23784.403,"text":"退府基金他不會用光的嗎把退府基金用盡了這個是一個假的議題嗎這個我覺得應該討論清楚他是不是退府基金永遠都用不完這個我覺得至少要討論清楚你說政府可以就不夠政府撥補不夠政府撥補政府 我們政府的財政在未來台灣社會結構的改變我們這個國家是不是能夠未來一直政府永遠無限制的這個動"},{"start":23785.868,"end":23795.067,"text":"可以永遠一直撥補下去撥補到讓大家每一個人都可以公平按照這個制度領到年金如果不改革的話如果現在停止調降的話"},{"start":23796.363,"end":23817.084,"text":"這個我覺得第一個最基本應該面對的議題再來如果今天我們開始停止這個所得地貸率的停止下降那接下來這樣子我們會提早到底這個基金影響到基金的財務是怎麼樣基金用光的年度是不是有提早 提早多少 多久"},{"start":23818.241,"end":23837.866,"text":"那這個如果它提早發生了基金用光提早發生了那到底它影響的是哪一些人它有哪一些人受到影響現在幾歲的公務人員或幾歲的人到時候他會基金會用光他會領不到這個年金這個我覺得這個是我們在修法之前應該討論的事情啊"},{"start":23840.322,"end":23869.66,"text":"再來我們這個現在大家在整個發言裡面是說現在這個退休人員民不聊生啦買不起東西啦現在我們到底這樣子到底我們現在如果我們今天停止開始這個所得替代率停止調降那這個實際上他的月領的退休金會變金會有什麼樣的改變這個我覺得也是今天應該討論的啊就我們現在修法之後到底影響到底變成退休領多少呢"},{"start":23872.755,"end":23897.154,"text":"我們現在要停止他跟我們現在這個他的月退所得到底是不是應該要跟現職的人員的薪資來掛鉤這個也是應該要討論的啊如果一直掛鉤如果說真的在職的公務人員跟退休的領的差不多那我幹嘛在職我趕快退休啊退休我就不用上班那領的差沒有多少公務人員調薪我這個退休金也跟著調"},{"start":23899.143,"end":23917.72,"text":"這個到底是不是應該這樣子我覺得這應該要討論這是我們今天修法我認為說還有很多我覺得應該我們討論的內容是這個而不是說誰欺負公務人員誰怎麼樣誰對公務人員我們對公務人員最好我們希望給公務人員多少"},{"start":23920.523,"end":23941.018,"text":"這個我還是希望懇謝的說現在廣泛討論已經結束了我希望說在逐條討論的時候我剛剛所提的這些問題大家應該要來討論大家如果不懂那我們可以請相關的單位來做詳細的報告讓數字至少在我們表決之前讓國人知道我們今天修法到底造成了我們國家未來什麼樣的影響謝謝"},{"start":23942.401,"end":23970.243,"text":"好 謝謝審判會委員我們現在已經進入到第三條的諸條討論那接下來我們就請張志倫委員發言好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位觀演長那今天很開心來到司法法治委員會那這是我第一次發言那沒有想到在發言之前就受到很多委員的攻擊那我必須要講的是其實今天這個公務人員的修法其實都是很多辛苦的工作人員公務人員尤其是工會他們"},{"start":23971.064,"end":23992.581,"text":"殷切的希望我們去幫他們發聲所以我還是認為因為還是大家要理性大家一起來溝通第三條主要修正重點主要是要明確排除84年前退休的公務人員不受現行的退伏基金的限制為什麼要這樣說因為84年退休的人他們當時是走N級制其實我在立法說明都寫得非常清楚"},{"start":23992.981,"end":24007.509,"text":"那時候沒有退撫基金的制度那些人當時沒有小基金退休金也不是從基金支出那現在基金不足為什麼要扣一扣他們的退休金來補動這樣合理嗎這是他們的心聲所以我們一定要來發表一下"},{"start":24008.149,"end":24033.73,"text":"那更何況這些人已經八九十歲了所以剩下的人也不多了他們只是要的是一個公平正義國家就算維持給付對財政的影響也微乎其微所以等一下政府單位可以講一下這些財政的影響到底是多少那他們這些很老的公務人員只是想要維持最基本的尊嚴跟生活的保障其實這樣的修正就是在落實制度分流保障既有的尊嚴"},{"start":24034.511,"end":24051.579,"text":"如果他們沒有得到他們就是因為認為沒有得到基本的保障他們才會請我們來提出這樣的修法所以當然我相信今天政府單位所寫的就是說有最低的保障可是就是因為他們沒有感覺到最低的保障所以才請我們修法 以上謝謝好 謝謝那接下來請張啟凱委員發言"},{"start":24055.735,"end":24070.471,"text":"剛剛那個發揮建議很好我記得要非常理性就整個理性物質科學去討論我現在要談一個最基本的就是今天好多民進黨立委在講說事實上公教人類已經撥補了有撥補嗎今天剛剛陳培宜講說撥補了2900多億有嗎"},{"start":24078.24,"end":24095.15,"text":"大家知道嗎那個撥補的你把最近這7年多砍了公教退休人員的錢這個拿進去叫做撥補那是他們養老跟他們的救命錢不要造謠你才造謠 你一開始就在造謠你要可以請主管機關來講那來了2900億的撥補"},{"start":24105.083,"end":24118.135,"text":"拿來2900億的撥補 2700億你講的根本就是他們救命錢跟養老的錢第二個 扣掉這個2000多億事實上真正撥補到公教人員的去年 教育人員50億 公務人員50億"},{"start":24127.421,"end":24137.444,"text":"今年一百九十四 兩個加起來兩百九十四億這個還不是給舊制欸這就是給 剛剛口口聲聲在講的新制欸舊制一毛錢到現在都沒有補喔這樣公平嗎 我們現在講的是一個職業平等嘛我們贊成對勞工撥補 勞工有撥補啊勞工在過去七年補了五千八百多億啊"},{"start":24151.383,"end":24162.788,"text":"這樣不會太不平等嗎我們贊成對勞工繼續撥補就是落實民進黨講的撥補也是一種改革當時洪聖翰部長專案那邊請協賽業黨支持好 最後講一個重要的概念你不要在那邊打斷好不好不要打斷別的委員的發言最重要最後講一個最重要的觀念"},{"start":24172.591,"end":24198.921,"text":"我剛剛只是把你的講錯話把它調整回來這個我覺得你要面對啦那個我講一個很重要的概念今天我們的討論是建築在理性上面那要看哪一個單位提出來的儲管機關是考試院啊考試院當初的年改的版本是從所得替代率多少開始往下三八成嘛對不對每一年下降分十年一年下降一趴啊"},{"start":24200.367,"end":24217.485,"text":"可是後來過了誰的版本 段宜康的版本啊段宜康不是用80% 他從75 先砍了5%以後每一年不是1% 是1.5所以到今年已經砍了5加9 14%就是我們的退休人員到現在"},{"start":24220.213,"end":24235.118,"text":"他被砍的已經遠遠超過當初的主管機關考試院的版本今天建新也在現場建新你現在總統府耶蔡英文提出來年金改革的委員會的也是從80開始到70就停啊"},{"start":24236.462,"end":24248.75,"text":"考試院的版本主管機關的版本跟年金改革的版本為什麼你們不尊重呢更重要的到現在為止已經砍了三分之一了35年年資的公教人員現在剩下大概66%你如果是35年的"},{"start":24252.15,"end":24280.852,"text":"沒有到35年就15年的話只有到35%砍過頭了請尊重主管機關當初提的第二個真的已經砍過頭了我們現在不是要回溯說回到以前的那種水準只是現在停下來好不好不回溯可是停下來讓我們的公教人員過一個有尊嚴有保障晚年謝謝好那謝謝那接下來因為剛剛有說請那個機關代表再發言那我想就是請那個市部長你三分鐘發言好嗎"},{"start":24293.806,"end":24315.21,"text":"主席您早上就只給他們三分鐘我來說明我想剛剛很多委員都已經把大致上問題都說明剛剛張委員一直講說主管計劃應該就數字來一個說明我先談一個事情當我們在談勞保撥補的時候相對的不應該是退府基金應該是公保因為這是社會保險"},{"start":24316.314,"end":24344.121,"text":"那勞保現在五千一百七十億但是公保到目前為止已經撥補了五千一百四十大概五千一百五十億剩下大概要七百多億也在最近之前也會撥補完重點是政府把八十八年公保改造以後政府負擔全部的那個債務那但是在勞保這邊現在才一百零八年才一百零九年才開始我只是在提供事實的資料是這樣子"},{"start":24346.021,"end":24365.092,"text":"那第二個問題回到退幅那退幅的部分我們為什麼會講是說預註款就是一個撥補因為預註款確實是2590就是說從年改到現在是2590那2590裡面絕大部分其實就是優存18%的支出"},{"start":24365.714,"end":24386.353,"text":"那意思就是說這個是社會上一直覺得本來就有爭議的一個事情年改那時候討論也都同意讓優存直接儘快歸零所以才會說本來都是政府預算支出政府也沒有拿回去到別的地方通通回給基金等於是政府來撥補"},{"start":24387.634,"end":24415.747,"text":"包括就職退休金也是一樣的道理所以這個概念我們認為它是一個撥補那至於你談的薪資那個純粹是另外一回事因為我們112年推了薪資所以才有93條的法律所以這個部分政府應該按照精算來撥補所以我們過去這三年呢公教大概撥了512億那這個都是法律在未來呢一定會再繼續撥補包括前面那個節省經費預註款根據法律一定要繼續撥補"},{"start":24417.087,"end":24431.455,"text":"這個大概我們精算報告裡面大概都講得非常非常清楚我只是在說明這個事實那至於說年改的時候考試院的版本我應該講全區部那時候版本就是跟年改會是完全一樣的"},{"start":24432.395,"end":24452.512,"text":"我們提75到60但是在考試院的時候確實是用80到70送出來那我只能講是說那時候我沒有在在政府部門服務但是那是全序部就是跟年年輕改革會版本完全那送到立法院的時候差別就在於說那個本來呢是一年挑一趴改變成10年挑15"},{"start":24455.393,"end":24475.485,"text":"我要講的是說那個本來條是75到60是一年一趴全序部跟那個年改會都是這個那放到立法院的時候才變成說10年1.5趴那考試現在80到70他也是一年一趴但是我要講的意思說本部的一個當初用精算概念的結果也是用75到60"},{"start":24482.219,"end":24500.72,"text":"主席是不是他沒有說明這一條是不是說明一下剛剛張志倫提案委員說請他們說明這個如果這個84年前退休人員因為都已經說明完了沒有 這個部分沒有說明剛剛那個登記主條這個84年以前如果說沒有說完的話待會還有其他條還可以再補充說明"},{"start":24502.722,"end":24519.498,"text":"這一條讓他說一下這一條可以修嗎張志倫委員剛剛有說希望他們說明84年我覺得我們按照我們的程序如果他答非所問這是行政部門自己的問題好不好他剛剛在回答張啟凱委員的說法現在回答提問"},{"start":24522.18,"end":24526.003,"text":"張志榮委員的說法不讓立委發言也不讓官員說明不讓立委發言也不讓官員說明這怎麼討論啊有關84年前"},{"start":24540.053,"end":24540.453,"text":"這裡有人談過嗎"},{"start":24556.201,"end":24581.184,"text":"有意義不通過好有意義我們就保留送協商又有不讓官員說明呢可是剛剛施部長講的他說未來要補那現在都沒有補啊像這個我們都要追問這條繼續討論啊你自己都說未來未來未來好那麼現在我們就進行第八條的討論那麼第八條是有張志倫委員等19人提案"},{"start":24581.864,"end":24592.869,"text":"那麼我們就現在先進行第八條的討論那首先先請中嘉賓委員發言時間三分鐘為限我的三分鐘請我們的部長繼續把剛剛要解釋的八字條講完請"},{"start":24601.284,"end":24622.661,"text":"84年以前已經退休的這個我們程序已經過了但是你總要講的讓國人知道讓這裡剛剛表決同意的委員他們自己讓他們知道我想剛剛那個第三條的意思在於說84年因為我們臨改的時候是大家一起的如果說你同意84年前都排除那後面的那個援引比照是非常非常可怕的一個事情"},{"start":24623.041,"end":24643,"text":"那接下來我們退休人也有定期按那個調整的一個機制然後也有最低的保障金額所以我比較建議就是說這一條真的要謹慎因為他可能會有其他同樣是84年退休以後他也有救治啊可是你只排除他前面後面不排除會有點問題啦"},{"start":24645.945,"end":24674.207,"text":"剩下的時間還是我的所以我是說今天主席我們今天完全是就事論事像剛才前一條的發言我引用了93條其實93條就是現在我們公教退府當中非常核心的一個議題93條好好的落實做後面今天這5條其實都不用去處理就是按照93條的精神政府他就會按照93條第二項跟第三項持續地撥補"},{"start":24675.608,"end":24683.594,"text":"剛剛我們提到了 如果是退府基金的話 這是職業退休金剛剛說到114年 因為112年實施之後 114到162還要再預注1.45兆喔這是我們目前政府根據93條它的一個責任那這當然呢 我們還要提到說專戶的部分 就是後來的專戶的缺口因為移除了112年之後新建的公務員那麼目前過去這三年 已經存了512億"},{"start":24704.088,"end":24709.534,"text":"這是用我們政府的預算去也是納稅人的錢未來10年還要持續地放3370億大家聽聽看未來10年還要放3370億進去這都是全民的納稅錢"},{"start":24719.125,"end":24723.667,"text":"政府為了照顧公教人員因為是政府僱用的人員已經要有這個規劃那我們應該努力的讓這3370億進來能夠達到它波補後讓基金可以永續經營但是不要我們後面一直波補你前面一直提領還是要強調一下公教退伍基金目前的問題早在它當年就核定了因為當時年改的時候"},{"start":24744.378,"end":24770.229,"text":"當時在年改之前我們精算的提存是不足的沒有按照精算的結果公交人員在職的時候沒有按照精算結果去提存但是到了退休之後卻要按照這個所得替代率去提領大家想想看存的少 領的多這個基金當然不能永續後續政府已經努力的在撥補前面的挹注就必須靠降低所得替代率讓這些節約下來的錢"},{"start":24773.05,"end":24789.283,"text":"就是這些已退休的人減少資領讓這些減少資領的回到基金 回到基金挹注所以我們要持續的回歸挹注也持續的依法撥補這樣子才是讓我們的退伍基金能夠永續能夠照顧我們公教人員唯一的方法好 謝謝鍾委員接下來請陳培鈺委員發言"},{"start":24794.81,"end":24808.445,"text":"好 謝謝主席關於這個修法的內容其實看起來我覺得這並沒有說明裁員要從哪裡來所以我也很好奇到底提出這樣修法委員這個修法版本的委員你所想像請要從哪裡來"},{"start":24809.927,"end":24829.663,"text":"那我的想像就是你們認為繼續掏空國庫掏空政府是你們覺得沒有問題的事情所以我想等一下我很希望就這個部分就在於在野黨的委員為什麼我要這樣說因為其實權序部已經一直拜託在野黨委員告訴你們說如果繼續如果要再停止調降所得替代率"},{"start":24830.063,"end":24854.161,"text":"那現在所有這些已經退休的人他們所得替代率上限會提高喔也就是你們說要停止了你們說是砍根本不是砍是停止而他們的實質月退休所得會比現在的五萬多塊還要來得更多而這個錢到底要從哪裡補你們甚至在法條裡面說法要政府相關預算可是這問題是基金用完的年度也會更提早"},{"start":24854.821,"end":24875.619,"text":"估計如果在112年停止調降公教人員基金挹注款合計要減少3323億元而用慶的年度也會提早4年大概到130年而如果你們又要要求要繼續維持用慶的年度是134年也就是說在你們的惡法假設三讀通過之後"},{"start":24876.4,"end":24898.001,"text":"到130年然後你們要求政府用慶的年度要維持在134年那政府未來20年要繼續撥補要再負擔4460億元如果你們又要求分10年撥補就會是3600億而各位委員如果你們的版本又希望是114年或115年停止調降用慶的年度會提早到131年或132年"},{"start":24900.683,"end":24906.325,"text":"而這些提早用慶的財務缺口你們又希望繼續往後延然後加大這個缺口我真的不知道是誰要來負責還有我要說提早停止調降而且不讓用慶年度提早發生需要龐大的經費這件事情難道委員們身為一個負責任的立法委員難道都不用去思考這筆錢到底是誰買單嗎我要再次強調是全民買單"},{"start":24925.111,"end":24944.664,"text":"政府的錢不是從天上掉下來這個理由這麼簡單這麼清楚是全民納稅人在照顧在野黨的一己之私為了照顧特殊族群所製造的對立而這些人的人數比例跟勞工的比例相差甚大要拜託在野黨委員三思我要再次強調是全體納稅人必須要負擔這個財務缺口你們口口聲聲說政府政府政府"},{"start":24952.429,"end":24972.019,"text":"我想小學生都知道政府的口袋不是哆啦A夢的口袋他不會變出錢他的錢是全民納稅人繳的錢所以你要全台灣的納稅人要一起負擔特殊族群你們為了照顧特殊族群的政治一己之私所造成的財務缺口我要拜託再次強調請你們煞車請你們停止做出這麼荒謬的事情"},{"start":24980.029,"end":24984.371,"text":"好謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請吳思瑤委員發言時間三分鐘還是要挑戰一下我從來沒有看過主席的主持是這麼的阿爸就是我就是比你大所以你最大限制大家的發言然後限縮委員的發言限定三分鐘連官員說明條文的時間都不給"},{"start":25002.839,"end":25024.311,"text":"這不是惡習什麼是惡習翁小玲主持的委員會的主條審查才是開創立法院民主討論的大惡習然後舊條文論條文第八條張志倫委員在第三項後面加了一半那很簡單四點回應第一個藍白的委員心知肚明知道你們這樣搞"},{"start":25025.451,"end":25048.989,"text":"終止了所得替代率的緩降 年金就是會破產你們已經心知肚明 遇見了這個後果所以 怕人話叫人 做賊喊抓賊喊抓賊 先在第三項後面下半段 要求中央要全扛因為你們已經看得很清楚 知道會破產而且要甩鍋給中央 這是第一點"},{"start":25049.932,"end":25056.248,"text":"第二點呢你們的條文裡頭我們剛一直在講為什麼年金會破產現在的潛在的債負債是2.96兆"},{"start":25060.406,"end":25085.963,"text":"2.96兆我一再的说公务人员如果我们停砍了所得替代率17年后就会用尽教育人员14年后就会用尽这是横在眼前的威胁因为他注定会破产所以这几年来大水库的理论过去因为缴少领多啊所以造成这个大水库一直在漏水我们的责任年改就是把它补漏好不容易补漏了你们现在要"},{"start":25090.485,"end":25113.47,"text":"這就是你們已經看到你們都心知肚明注定會破產你們這樣惡修下去會更快破產所以才會有你提的這個條文因為破產了誰扛政府扛然後政府誰扛中央扛就是你提這個第三項的後半部的原始就是這個原因而已第三點我非常反對抗國家之慨"},{"start":25116.142,"end":25128.574,"text":"這個退休金的制度就是政府扛一部分你退休者你自己現任的時候你要提撥原始是這樣的制度設計你現在破產以後全部讓納稅人的錢來補這個部分來補公教"},{"start":25133.206,"end":25145.749,"text":"一個退休退伏的制度是insider自己要承擔責任可是你制度的錯誤你讓outsider這些全民來買單破產之後全部政府撥補這完全都不公平不正義啊"},{"start":25146.969,"end":25173.746,"text":"所以說你一再的抗國家之慨現在呢 張志榮委員這個條文更可怕的地方是要求中央全扛抗國家之慨 破產之後中央全扛而且現在中央跟地方政府負擔這些退休大概是1比1的金額你要求說中央全扛 中央要負擔地方的兩倍所以你們好厲害 好棒棒啊藍白的委員提案停慨年金"},{"start":25175.151,"end":25204.463,"text":"改革走回頭路 加速了年金的破產然後呢 中央政府去背抗國家之慨 抗全民之慨去綁你們的鐵票居然還敢入法要求中央負擔破產之後這全部的兩倍有這種事情嗎有這種道理嗎你不只要政府全扛還要中央扛地方政府的兩倍這整個制度就歪掉了"},{"start":25206.099,"end":25230.023,"text":"難道你們認為你們永遠不可能重返中央執政嗎這個財政的負擔中央現在財化法被你們挖走了4165億只要有稅計剩餘你們全部要來發現金中央的財源就一直一直被挖挖挖挖走了然後你居然年改停產之後破產之後中央全行要負擔地方政府的兩倍"},{"start":25231.636,"end":25250.221,"text":"這有什麼道理所以我早上說我要修正喔我說這整個年改法案有三大不公第一大不公是重退休輕限職第二大不公是重公教輕勞工第三大不公是公教破產全民買單不公我現在要增加第四公第四個不公"},{"start":25251.121,"end":25270.12,"text":"就是讓中央政府來承擔兩倍以上地方政府應當承擔的責任造成中央跟地方政府的不公這四大不公就會落實在張志倫委員第三條對不起第八條第三項你增列後半部可怕的地方就在這裡"},{"start":25271.121,"end":25295.329,"text":"最後我要求主席這個條文相關的部會有誰除了我們權序部師部長除了我們考試院的劉建新秘書長還包括財主單位因為這一條你要求的是中央來負擔涉及財源的支出第一個這是行政權你們又用一個立法要求中央增加政府支出那你就涉及行政權你又要違憲反正你們違憲很習慣"},{"start":25297.639,"end":25315.062,"text":"沒辦法了那你最起碼等下討論你要讓財主機關來回答讓財主機關所以這個部分我怕你不會主持喔我先跟你講施部長要回答 梁秘書長要回答財主部分財政部跟主席都要回答好嗎那接下來我們要請審發會委員發言這就是惡習好 接下來我們請審發會委員發言"},{"start":25328.874,"end":25356.37,"text":"主席各位同仁齁這個剛剛是吳世耀委員所提的齁說這一條第八條這個要求中央政府扛這個中央政府其實不是現在的中央政府也不是民進黨政府這是未來的政府齁而且甚至他不是政府在扛他是未來的納稅人在扛未來納的稅一個基金"},{"start":25357.723,"end":25383.275,"text":"這樣子搞 國家不是不會破產的希臘就破產 冰島就破產國家不是不會破產 為什麼因為你這些人口結構改變了少子化 未來繳稅的人沒有那麼多沒有現在這麼多人在繳稅但他們繳出來稅他們到時候要蓋一條捷運 沒有他們繳出來稅是要去補以前退休而且以前的人的這些退休金幾乎就占掉他們繳稅的一大部分了"},{"start":25385.137,"end":25407.968,"text":"所以這個條款就是在剝削未來就在剝削現在的年輕人所以我覺得這個大家要談清楚也要讓全民大家知道今天整個過程讓我又覺得感覺好像又回到國會擴權法案那種氣氛反正就是不用討論了反正你們就心意已決動員來表決贏了"},{"start":25410.089,"end":25437.885,"text":"就...就過了這個是最不好的立法方式啦齁我才有一些時間我希望說在這個...這個...這個...因為我很怕到做主席又不讓...又不讓...又不讓主管機關說明啦齁所以我還是要請...我...我還是請主管機關說明齁幾...幾個事情啦齁第一個你現在你...你先說明就是按照它這個第八條就...就這一條就...就這一條它這樣子立法會有什麼樣的後果這是第一個請...請主管機關說明第二個"},{"start":25440.001,"end":25461.08,"text":"現在如果說我們照這些相關的提案我們開始提前停止降低這個所得替代率它對於這個基金財務的影響到底是多少多大的影響再來它會使這個基金用慶的年度提早多久提早幾年發生"},{"start":25463.507,"end":25480.474,"text":"然後這樣發生之後會影響到誰現在幾歲的公務人員到時候會受到影響如果我們提早基金提早用盡可能現在的公務人員就是現在他公務人員他到時候就基金就用盡了在他還沒退休之前這個我等一下要請主管機關來說明現在先用我的時間說明好不好你不完最後等一下再補那就先請說明"},{"start":25489.157,"end":25504.487,"text":"謝謝我想簡單做一個說明這第八條裡面因為現在那所節省的經費因為經費是由各級政府來負擔如果說變成通通是中央政府負擔等於是中央政府要幫地方政府再多負擔這是很實際的一個問題這是第一個那當然第二個"},{"start":25505.847,"end":25532.739,"text":"如果提早停止停止調降大概我們估算就三到四年提早三到四年三到四年的概念是我們當初年改的時候從一百二十變成一百三十八左右大概是只有二十年又提早了三十年那比例其實是蠻大的第三個如果預估在一百假設最早是在一百一十三年左右我們可能在一百三十年左右就可能會用盡這時候一百三十年用現在來推算的話現在六十一歲以下的"},{"start":25533.7,"end":25546.456,"text":"人都可能是在基金用盡完以後還會領基金這是一個很嚴肅的61歲以下是包括可能有些是已退的人有可能是但大部分都是現職的一個人我想做這樣一個說明好 謝謝那接下來請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":25552.465,"end":25573.864,"text":"好 謝謝這第二次在司法法治委員會發言那我覺得這個一直我是在講我們這個公教員的基金的撥補我們當然希望說中央要挹注多一點的資金那剛剛很多委員又在攻擊我也不知道為什麼我想要請教的是老保即將在六年破產那我請教是誰在撥補老保的基金"},{"start":25575.339,"end":25604.358,"text":"還不是政府中央政府在撥補勞保的基金還用不只是用一般預算在撥補還用特別預算在撥補那為什麼我們現在公教員的這個退休金現在中央就好像考慮不撥補所以我想要請這個我們行政單位來講就是因為過去這麼多年來中央撥補的經費不管在勞保公教退休金都不足才有這麼大的缺口嗎我想請承信部回應難道過去你們要求中央政府的撥補的預算中央都有撥補"},{"start":25606.02,"end":25634.057,"text":"撥補到位嗎就是都沒有撥補到位嘛所以我們現在才希望說提一個第八條希望中央政府應該要逐年編列預算把過去很大的這個破洞跟缺口要好好依照入法來撥補嗎難道今天程序部會跟我講說我們之前要求的請中央政府撥補的錢都有撥補嗎就是沒有撥補才那麼大的缺口嗎那難道現在勞保基金是誰在撥補難道不是中央在撥補嗎為什麼對公交員就這樣差別待遇這樣誰能接受"},{"start":25635.114,"end":25654.305,"text":"以上那麼現在登記主條討論發言的委員都已經發言完請主管機關再說明一下因為他剛剛是用我的時間再請退府司司長嗎3分鐘說明還是請部長說明3分鐘為限 謝謝"},{"start":25656.491,"end":25684.391,"text":"我想剛剛有關那個那個中央跟地方負擔我剛剛已經做說明了那剛剛這個張委員提的一個還是要分兩塊屬於本來退府基金這一塊的大水庫不足的部分我們從年改以後剛剛已經講過就按照法律規節省的經費全部都回去移住這個也跑不掉精算以後也一定要繼續丟進來這肯定跑不掉但是新制的部分那過去中央政府不足撥補的金額大概多少"},{"start":25685.532,"end":25706.501,"text":"我們已經丟進去2000我是問你不足的部分是多少如果用基金的一個負債就是2兆2.96兆元就是我們講未精算的那個未提損的精算負債這個就是大家一起造成的因為以前不足而提撥"},{"start":25710.236,"end":25735.427,"text":"不是 如果你講的是那個10年撥補20年撥補那個落差的話那事實上那個只是撥補的速度其實最後都會到位就是剛剛中央兵委引述的那個93條裡面因為112年新制成立之後新的人不進來所以政府有一個撥補的義務要分年撥補的義務要把那個洞補起來使得基金不要提前4年破產那所以為了那4年政府我們就有跟主計總書來討論要用花10年還是花20年把它補起來但是不管怎麼樣那個最後都會到位"},{"start":25736.147,"end":25755.95,"text":"如果依照我們現在的討論就像花20年每年撥補200億出頭它最後都會到位它雖然不是像用10年的速度那麼快但20年之內它還是會被補起來那個是現在法律裡撥補的定義它只是補的速度是10年還是20年"},{"start":25762.139,"end":25764.201,"text":"回答完畢了嗎部長剛剛說還有主計總署是不是主計總署"},{"start":25771.38,"end":25795.565,"text":"麻煩也三分鐘維線主計總署這邊說明因為首先來講這個財基法第七條就有規定了就是立法機關他在制定或修正法律的時候不可以增訂那個固定經費額度的保障那這次修法裡頭就已經明確去講到說中央政府應該要逐年的就是針對編列預算不可以低於"},{"start":25796.738,"end":25824.794,"text":"各級政府每年節省經費支出的那個兩倍那這個部分來講可能就有違反財政紀律法之餘那再加上那這一次修法去規範一個最低撥補的金額可能也會造成未來不同職業別的修法他會有一個原因比照的問題那考量就是現在這個公務人員退休資權撫恤法他第七條件明確規範就是政府是負最重的支付保證責任"},{"start":25826.295,"end":25845.951,"text":"然後再來就是第九條第三項的部分也有提到就是我們的新制退伏制度建立以後那個政府會針對那個精算的結果完成那個新制退伏制度的撥補以後就接續分年編列預算去撥補這個退伏基金那考量就是我們現在的制度上"},{"start":25847.282,"end":25860.747,"text":"已經有確保退伏基金的財務安全那是否懇請就是說在嚴守這個財政紀律的情況下我們這次修法不要去限定我們這個編列這個撥補退伏基金的一個預算金額以上"},{"start":25863.851,"end":25884.203,"text":"好 謝謝機關的說明那現在登記主條討論發言的委員以及機關代表都已經發言完畢了討論結束那針對第八條的案子我們是不是就照案通過反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對"},{"start":25893.206,"end":25919.217,"text":"接下來我們就進行第37條國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等31人提案委員張志倫等16人提案委員張家俊等23人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員邱振軍等25人提案委員陳昌明等19人提案委員徐宇珍等20人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員馬文君等20人提案委員王宏威等25人提案"},{"start":25919.599,"end":25920.56,"text":"那麼現在進行發言討論首先先請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":25948.483,"end":25972.452,"text":"我認為身為這一屆的立法委員心中有無限的感慨我們在面對這個年改嚴肅的議題我早上說了如果藍白硬推國民黨的對不起馬英九因為馬英九過去說年改今天不改明天就會後悔所以羅志強你對不起馬英九民眾黨的委員對不起柯文哲主席"},{"start":25973.331,"end":25993.205,"text":"柯文哲過去也說年改是一定要做的事他甚至痛罵反年改是王八蛋但是今天藍白的委員惡意持續的要讓年金改革喊卡坐在我對面的幾位委員大家可以看一看民進黨的委員我們準備充分我們就條文就數字"},{"start":25994.264,"end":26012.862,"text":"理性 務實 科學我們希望可以這樣來理性對話只是對於我坐在對面的委員我想也都沒有仔細在參與我們認真的討論那汪小玲主席只想趕快讓時間三分鐘 三分鐘然後pass過去保留送協商就如此而已"},{"start":26013.783,"end":26037.048,"text":"我覺得這種討論是非常沒有品質是民進黨的委員在這裡努力認真的發言而我們的理性論述丟到半空連這條線都過不去這是無比悲哀的事年金的負債2.96兆如果今天終止了所得替代率就是現在要進行的這第37條"},{"start":26040.385,"end":26069.015,"text":"這是最核心的條文如果讓所得替代率終止了那麼公教本來改革之後134年才會破產會提早到131年就破產教育人員的退伏經過改革可以延緩到131年才破產現在又大幅的提前到民國128年就破產這都讓我們的改革功虧一簣"},{"start":26070.968,"end":26095.797,"text":"這是一個重中之重也是惡中之惡的條文因為就是這一條你們要終止所得替代率的緩降我早上說了手上這一本是我們今天準備在這裡討論的重要依據就是第九次的精算報告290頁藍白的委員沒有人讀哪裡理性務實科學"},{"start":26097.903,"end":26124.996,"text":"來這裡亂講一通好290頁你不願意讀那麼請把全序部今天整理只有22頁的這一份說明資料你好歹看一下吧你不願意看那吳思瑤懇求你們就看這一份報告的最後一頁第22頁就看這一頁就好我懇請在野黨委員你們認真的看一看基本的數字好好面對你們的惡修"},{"start":26126.383,"end":26145.658,"text":"就看這一頁如果所得替代率終止了然後回溯年改停在112年國民黨的版本那這樣子的話公教人員平均可以領的退休諷列在這裡非常的清楚平均數會來到5萬5 5萬6一個月退休諷"},{"start":26151.288,"end":26180.068,"text":"週休七日月領五萬五 五萬六這不是勞役不均嗎不上工月領五萬五 五萬六這是平均數這對於現職服務的公職人員 公務人員們是他們的七成星啊週休七日月領現職人員的七成星"},{"start":26182.359,"end":26209.301,"text":"這是什麼公平正義啊拜託藍白的委員290頁的資料你們不願意花時間細讀這一本只有22頁今天在審查這個嚴肅的太激動的議題的時候這一本你看一下好嗎最後一頁就清楚的告訴我們如果喊卡"},{"start":26210.782,"end":26226.697,"text":"而且回溯到112年公教人員所領的月退奉平均都來到55000 56000回到我早上拿的這一張圖表勞工朋友月領25000老農月領8100國民年金月領不到4000元"},{"start":26236.048,"end":26245.663,"text":"勞工有1048萬人口公教人員58萬人公平正義是什麼"},{"start":26247.72,"end":26269.158,"text":"這個條文就是重中之重對在野黨的委員你們加一項就是停侃文字寫幾個字結束可是對於國家財政的負擔對於其他職業的剝削對於整個國家財政造成的壓力讓年金提早破產你們可以負責嗎"},{"start":26270.899,"end":26291.268,"text":"我知道我在這裡認真講主席翁小林委員只等著時間趕快過然後等一下給吳思耀消音然後在我對面我在對牛彈琴欸我在狗吠火車欸你們這些委員來來去去誰認真在這裡面對任何一個文字誰認真在這裡面對任何一個條文"},{"start":26293.735,"end":26303.758,"text":"你們這些委員誰在負責任的看待你們今天要挑的法案你們知不知道現在在說什麼你們自己提的法案不會說明 不敢說明"},{"start":26320.257,"end":26338.604,"text":"還沒有說明 請問一下你不會看喔你耳朵聾了 你眼睛也瞎了嗎我尊重整個程序是你沒有在尊重程序啊我耳朵沒有聾 我眼睛沒有瞎我從頭到尾就看在你對我們的發言你完全都左耳即耳出你尊重別人的私下言論如果陳柏宜不願發言就下一個發言好不好好 現在將時間先暫停麻煩時間"},{"start":26347.708,"end":26357.264,"text":"沒有 就是 請主席還我時間三分鐘 謝謝主席 您今天已經是死人接下來就請參加委員繼續發言為委員會打斷他的發言"},{"start":26360.496,"end":26363.377,"text":"我還是要抗議喔 而且剛剛在野黨委員不斷地把勞保還有退福搞錯了 我要再次提醒在野黨委員請你們把保險跟退休金分開來看勞保要對照公保 退福基金要對照勞退那政府到底花了多少錢 多少撥補我來講給你們聽"},{"start":26378.664,"end":26381.465,"text":"政府對勞保的撥補從109年開始到115年累計編列5170億這是勞保的部分可是公教保險的部分從88年財務重整而重整前的負債已經由政府分年撥補全數負擔請聽好到目前為止已經累計達到5141億元"},{"start":26402.193,"end":26405.837,"text":"剛剛造謠的張志倫委員還有早上造謠的張啟凱委員說我們對於公保沒有撥補沒有照顧請聽清楚了請把公保跟勞保對照看另外退休金的部分等一下我要說公教保險的部分除了我剛剛說的5141億元"},{"start":26418.171,"end":26436.845,"text":"後續還有720億加起來5800多億全部都是由政府負擔也就是政府對於公保過去的負債負完全撥補的責任而且即將完成這是第一個公保請對照老保請在黨的委員不認真修法也認真看清楚相關數字再來退休金的部分"},{"start":26437.325,"end":26451.52,"text":"退休金勞退基金因為是採個人帳戶制政府完全沒有撥補可是至於年改也就是你們現在要動的這個部分年改後到113年政府對於退府基金的挹注款已經累積有2590億接下來114年到162年依法合計"},{"start":26458.467,"end":26470.782,"text":"我說的是年改前年改後我們修的法不是你們現在即將修的二法還要一柱達1.45兆另外關於專戶新制的缺口3年以來已經累計編列512億元撥補預計分10年撥補合計會達到3370億元"},{"start":26479.229,"end":26486.555,"text":"而我們講的這些數字我要請在黨委員謹慎的思考勞保參加的人數是1048萬人公保有約58萬人這個規模數據相差如此的大"},{"start":26494.341,"end":26522.02,"text":"也就是說政府到目前為止我剛念那些數字請委員們你們加減乘除算一下對每一個公保參加人的撥補數超過每一個勞保參加人這麼多這樣真的合理嗎這樣真的符合世代族群職業之間的公平正義嗎而不要再造謠說只有撥補勞保會不會你們連勞保跟勞退都搞不清楚公保之餘退服都搞不清楚根本不知道自己在講什麼不知道自己在修什麼"},{"start":26526.257,"end":26527.562,"text":"好接下來鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":26532.29,"end":26535.113,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席根據我們這個條文裡面其中因為我們一直在討論有關於各族群各職業的一個橫平性跟公平性所以在我的提案裡面其中是有一些君職然後他轉文職的"},{"start":26556.732,"end":26559.474,"text":"但是他卻因為在轉文職的時候他前面的軍職的年資就不予計算所以導致他的所得替代率偏低所以我們在這次的修法裡面我們有幾位委員針對這個不公平的現象在37條裡面予以修正這個是我在提案37條裡面跟我們委員會來做報告"},{"start":26584.775,"end":26586.056,"text":"至於從早上到現在看得出來因為民進黨為了阻擋老師說前面有一些他們的談話或者他引用一些報告我覺得這個都可以充分討論"},{"start":26600.806,"end":26603.21,"text":"但是到現在到了下午可能他們已經詞窮了幾乎我都在聽倒帶的事情包含什麼對不起馬英九啦對不起柯文哲早上不是已經有了嗎下午還要繼續對不起所以我們待會這個15分鐘之後是不是要繼續對不起誰啊"},{"start":26615.99,"end":26617.171,"text":"所以我覺得這樣子的討論我必須說浪費時間而且不停的來攻擊主席甚至攻擊其他的委員從早上到現在為止我是第一次發言我聆聽大家的意見"},{"start":26632.368,"end":26636.631,"text":"然後呢 竟然就會被講說 你都沒有再仔細聽現在是怎麼樣的狀況啊如果今天我們的討論變成一個唯心論甚至呢 這個我想委員不管你的主張是什麼 大家互相尊重而不是今天連坐在這邊的委員大被另外的委員來做這個來judge他 還說你有沒有仔細聽這會不會太誇張了 這是討論嗎這不叫討論 這是惡意的杯葛"},{"start":26661.207,"end":26664.069,"text":"另外就是有關於我們現在這次的修法之前其實大家也提到了因為它是一個所得替代率的停侃我覺得有很多的現在一些謬誤也應該讓社會大眾能夠了解第一個它是停侃"},{"start":26679.818,"end":26682.341,"text":"並不是恢復所以剛才我有聽到對面的陳培鈺委員義正詞嚴在那邊氣噗噗講說這是照顧什麼特殊的族群而且會讓他更增加這完全是這個造謠我必須講這完全造謠也就是說"},{"start":26699.002,"end":26715.056,"text":"今天是一個所得替代率的停砍怎麼可能會變成你所領的退休金反而增加了呢所以我覺得這是完全的謬誤和造謠所以我剛才說其實我們希望能夠有更理性既然有理性討論至少不應該再做造謠"},{"start":26718.178,"end":26722.219,"text":"那另外呢其實因為我們原來按照年金的這個計畫跟這個設計是到2029年它停侃到2029年所以它確實是提前的讓它停侃這個所得替代率但這不代表說今天把所有現在在退府基金裡面所有的這個虧損也好啦或者這些財務負擔"},{"start":26747.344,"end":26750.548,"text":"全部讓現在只有四年就是未來還有四年我們是提前四年的提侃那不要把它變成說好像每一年都一直提侃然後我們突然嘎然而止我覺得這個就是說我們必須把現在我們實際我們現在修法跟原來的計畫要依法依實"},{"start":26768.328,"end":26771.03,"text":"按照事實的跟社會大眾報告而不是在那邊危言聳聽而且過去真的羞辱羞辱這些退休的這個公教人員也好啦或者什麼你週休七日你月領多少錢月了"},{"start":26785.923,"end":26795.99,"text":"這個都是當年就是在羞辱這些退休的這些我們的公教人員如果還要再羞辱一次然後無限制的來羞辱我覺得這絕對不是社會之福而且我們在討論這個事情的時候不要刻意的去製造不管是族群的對立或者世代的對立以上 謝謝主席不公平 超過一分半鐘"},{"start":26810.899,"end":26839.321,"text":"我要表達的是我今天對於民進黨委員的發言我都給予最大的寬容三分鐘之後至少都有兩分鐘所以我們的權益發言你說你寬容我這不是你的施捨這是我們發言的權利你是主席你不是上帝你不是施捨給我們的三分鐘為限但是民進黨委員的發言都超過了兩分鐘我基本上才會站起來所以請尊重主席"},{"start":26839.941,"end":26853.167,"text":"主持會議的這個這個權責那麼如果說是待會陳培宇委員吳四堯委員你們都堅持要遵守會議秩序的話那我三分鐘之後就立刻消音好那現在先請懲罰會委員發言好主席各位同仁現在就進入今天最核心的條文三十七條"},{"start":26863.308,"end":26875.553,"text":"大概剛剛前面那兩條之後 只有一個委員提案那比較奇怪但這個是最核心就是要開始停止第三十七條就是要開始這個所得替代率的停止調降"},{"start":26877.506,"end":26894.345,"text":"那剛才王宏威委員 王宏威委員今天是第一次發言所以我也很仔細聽了他在裡面提到違心論 提到違言聳聽那我就為了避免說我們的討論變成違心論所以我就是在這最核心的這個條文"},{"start":26896.325,"end":26907.29,"text":"我希望就是大家在這個條文等一下你們要舉手強行表決之前我希望能夠至少在司法法治委員會對國人說明清楚"},{"start":26909.742,"end":26936.777,"text":"這個原本調降按照原本的計畫原本調降是到2019年118年要停止現在我們提前如果今天修法要通過再三十幾條就提前四年那我們基金的這個基金用慶的年度也提早四年提早四年那這個我們提前停止這個降低所得替代率他對我們這個基金的財務的影響到底是什麼"},{"start":26937.697,"end":26953.789,"text":"具體的數字我們知道一定是影響很大那具體的數字我們這個具體的數字是什麼會必須我們合計如果我們未來這個20年的時間來撥補大概要多少的錢這個我覺得這個才不會是違心論我們來實際討論這個那剛剛我有問到但是剛剛因為回答時間很短就是說"},{"start":26967.489,"end":26976.559,"text":"我們基金提早用盡的年度提早這麼多年那麼到底誰會受到影響"},{"start":26978.605,"end":27007.407,"text":"現在的退休者會不會受到影響現在已經退休的人會不會受到影響現在還沒退休的人會不會受到影響如果基金提早四年用慶那會影響到哪一些人哪一些人幾歲以前你剛有提一個61歲的數字你應該要說明給大家清楚為什麼61歲的人受到影響那現在已經退休的人他在這個提早四年用慶他會受到什麼樣的影響這個我覺得今天這一條要修我們要修"},{"start":27008.388,"end":27030.04,"text":"就照理講如果說大家都沒有說政黨的立場在這邊我們今天該討論的就是這個啊就是這個為什麼我們要把它停下來當初這個年金改革不是說對公務人員說他們混蛋我們要讓他們難過不是 而是你這個基金會用盡嘛"},{"start":27031.301,"end":27050.898,"text":"這基金不是永續的因為過去的提撥不足所以我們現在所以他過去制度設計的時候這也不是國民黨的錯不是現在國民黨的錯是以前國民黨的錯設計了這種制度那現在我們大家就是要面對這個問題才要年金改革啊要不然馬英雄說年金改革他就頭被他打了年金改革那現在我們要把這個改革說我們停下來"},{"start":27058.011,"end":27074.846,"text":"就從今天修法之後我們就不要再調降了好 不要調降那造成什麼樣的影響它提前四年基金用盡那影響是什麼你要讓受影響的人提前知道啊這是我們立法者的義務啊這樣才不會是王國威委員講的違心論啊大家在那邊憑情緒"},{"start":27077.273,"end":27100.948,"text":"我們就是要講這個數字它就不會是唯心論那數字講出來我們精算 我們這都有精算嘛講出來它就不會是唯言聳聽啊也不會是王宏輝講的唯言聳聽啊它就是具體的數字講出來哪些人受到什麼影響它在基金用慶的時候現在幾歲的人在我們提早的四年基金用慶那對他們有什麼樣的影響這部分我等一下請主管機關要說明清楚"},{"start":27104.192,"end":27114.371,"text":"好那麼謝謝沈委員的發言那因為剛有提到就是說這金融金融的問題那前早四年跟晚四年反正都會破產那你是不是可以請市部長來解釋一下"},{"start":27115.472,"end":27141.483,"text":"我跟委員報告 如果我們提早停止調降的話預估就要提早4年用盡提早4年用盡的意思如果你不想讓這4年提早用盡就要有人去撥補預估這撥補的數如果分20年撥補合計大概要4460億這是沒有折現的所以這大概就是一個財務的 純粹為了這4年你必須要丟進去這麼多錢"},{"start":27144.844,"end":27171.403,"text":"那如果說我們現在能夠讓這個好好一直到118年根據年改的方式至少這個就沒有什麼問題但是118年以後即使停止到那裡我們水庫後面還是會破產我想所以我們一直認為說不要再讓他提早用盡是這個意思那第二個解釋是剛剛提到均值這個年資的一個部分我就一起說明因為均值的人因為他退的時候他已經拿過錢了"},{"start":27173.171,"end":27184.244,"text":"所以他既然已經拿過錢我們這個制度上不可能說同一年的一個年資突然又在兩個地方分別這個計算這個對任何人來講都不是公平的事情所以這一點也跟委員做這個報告"},{"start":27189.679,"end":27205.107,"text":"好因為還有些時間好麻煩對還有一分那個剛才部長講的就是說為了要這個提前這四年的就是我們停侃提前四年所以你說提前四年所以我剛剛講說提前四年"},{"start":27206.347,"end":27221.336,"text":"就是本來應該是到118年就停止那我們現在把它延長到113年 當然民眾黨是114年那所以為了這個樣子所以呢你要多增加支付4446億是這樣子嗎4446億分20年的話多少"},{"start":27229.625,"end":27241.69,"text":"可是那假使你今天如果不在那個等於說到118年他停卡一直到118年的話你要撥補多少錢呢應該要撥補的那個"},{"start":27247.079,"end":27264.633,"text":"新人新制提撥完以後後面就是根據那個那個我們會有每年挹注款的部分還是要根據法律一直你要不要挹注還是要給撥補嗎對 還是要挹注那撥補多少這個精算報告裡面會有每一個年度我們只要算說撥補多少114到162年精算報告這樣累計要1.45兆元"},{"start":27275.106,"end":27298.444,"text":"所以一樣要4.65兆元嗎1.45兆元然後如果你先不停砍因為我看到你們的數字是如果未來假使他不停砍這四年他挹注這個基金是2800億左右不是嗎"},{"start":27303.442,"end":27321.874,"text":"他挹注基金應該是2800億你現在未來呢未來這過去發生在2700億2700億挹注基金如果他未來再停侃一直停侃到118年他挹注基金多少沒有我要講的"},{"start":27332.253,"end":27335.014,"text":"老實說 就在2800億左右而已我們這邊講到好像好像是這天道塌下來了我們馬上財政就要垮了講了老半天是多少錢呢那個規模是多少呢那個規模大概是2800億左右"},{"start":27352.406,"end":27369.718,"text":"那規模就是2800億所以我的意思就是說大家一直在以說這個停產年金就是會影響財政我同意 這個確實因為你就停止挹注這個基金而這個停止 我說它只是提早4年它不是提早40年好嗎"},{"start":27371.019,"end":27381.771,"text":"它不是提早40年 它是提早4年而這4年你少撥補的基金的規模是2800億2800億左右所以今天我們一再討論從早上到今天討論那麼久就是2800億的規模可是現在我們看到我們政府的財政2800億"},{"start":27391.841,"end":27412.435,"text":"老師說我們一個特別預算都是2800億的報幾倍了所以我在這邊要特別講一下就應該講說我們沒有做功課什麼等等之類的所以你這個東西你應該要對社會大眾說清楚你在這個前提我同意會不會影響這個退伏基金比如說你提早破產因為提早破產就要提早撥補然後你會影響這個基金的水位會影響基金的水位會不會影響政府的會但它規模是多少"},{"start":27421.821,"end":27432.072,"text":"不要把它講的2800已經把它講到好像20兆那種感覺或2兆那種感覺好不好要提供正確的數字"},{"start":27433.22,"end":27451.998,"text":"好 謝謝王委員還有市部長這邊的發言那麼我們剛剛這一條的登記主條討論的發言委員都已經發言完畢了我們就討論結束那接下來我們就針對第37條以及附表3然後包含修正動議1修正動議2的這個案子然後我們來進行"},{"start":27454.535,"end":27465.669,"text":"就一併保留就一併保留反對通過就一併保留接下來我們就再進行第38條的討論"},{"start":27468.24,"end":27487.018,"text":"那麼第38條總共有委員賴世寶等26人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員王宏威等19人提案委員廖偉祥等20人提案委員林世民等16人提案委員楊瓊英等27人提案委員林倩琦等21人提案委員翁曉琳等3人所提修正動議委員黃國昌張祺凱等5人所提修正動議"},{"start":27492.827,"end":27515.503,"text":"好 那我們現在進行討論那麼請吳思瑤委員先發言剛剛王洪威委員的發言我是覺得非常的嘆為觀止退府基金的制度設計是什麼就是參與這個退府基金的本體就是公教人員他與政府來共同提撥"},{"start":27517.102,"end":27530.82,"text":"而不是像王宏威說只要兩三千億啊國家有錢啊拿國家的錢去補就好了這就回到我說的造成全民買單的那個不公平"},{"start":27532.022,"end":27551.727,"text":"政府基金的設計就是insider公教人員跟政府共同提撥而不是像在野黨委員說拿納稅人全民的預算 outside的錢來補給公教這就是天大的不公平這是第一點"},{"start":27552.907,"end":27555.068,"text":"第二點天確實是要塌了呀王宏威委員對你們在野黨而言兩三千億隨便提一個錢坑法案亂花就沒了兩三千億是什麼錢但是"},{"start":27568.516,"end":27572.598,"text":"就制度面這些公教人員因為你們今天提出來的停侃年金就會造成提前4年的破產公務人員17年後退休的人他可能領不到了業他就是天塌下來了呀"},{"start":27587.586,"end":27607.651,"text":"教育人員14年後退休的他就領不到退休金了這對他來講就是人生的黑暗啊怎麼可以講得這麼雲淡風輕兩三千億隨便國家拿錢來處理就好因為您對於退府基金的制度設計的原理完全是錯誤的解讀"},{"start":27609.491,"end":27626.411,"text":"应当是insider公教人员跟政府共同提拨而不是你们爱怎么样用国家全民的钱去补多少都可以爱怎么花就怎么花康国家之慨康人民之慨这是你们对于退府基金整个认知的谬误"},{"start":27628.072,"end":27646.301,"text":"然後再講這個條文跟37條一樣規範的只是分別法施行的之前已退跟新退的人員而已但它本質都是一樣就是所得替代率停止調降以及我現在講的是一個重點因為剛剛37條沒有提到"},{"start":27649.002,"end":27664.237,"text":"你們無視於原本就設有的機制只要CPI上下5%就要調整退修縫以及4年就要檢討一次這是原本就有的設計"},{"start":27665.738,"end":27681.879,"text":"这几年来已经两度调升退休奉调了6%这是原来就有的这就是为了因应物价调涨来协助退休人员他领的退休奉也可以跟着upgrade这几年已经调了两次6%"},{"start":27684.042,"end":27692.569,"text":"那你現在又要跟現職的公務人員只要調薪那退休人員他的退休分也要跟著調他會造成雙重的調整他確實會造成雙重的調整這就是懲罰現職的公務同仁"},{"start":27706.4,"end":27723.589,"text":"懲罰現役的公教同仁這就是非常不合理不正義的地方所以他不只產生了雙重調整的不合理的機制你甚至會去影響現職的公務人員他覺得我乾脆提早退休就好了"},{"start":27724.429,"end":27742.169,"text":"我乾脆提早退休就好了這更不利於我們政府人力的運用如同羅志強委員在說的現在報考的人已經變少了那我們是不是要留住優秀的公務人員在他退休前的合理的服務期程裡頭來貢獻才華服務人民呢"},{"start":27746.073,"end":27763.666,"text":"可是你這個法一修下去以後好我最後要結束了你一旦修下去以後你會大量的造成現職的工作人員不如早退休因為我可以週休七日還領七八成薪提早的離退就是讓我們的公務人員"},{"start":27764.827,"end":27777.399,"text":"人員的利用對於國家的服務是不利的所以有很多的負面的效益請所有的委員都要三思 都要三思那不要真的 我就講到尾聲 我很認真在講這樣子"},{"start":27785.979,"end":27798.511,"text":"等一下主席就是等著吳斯堯發言完 這幾位發言人啊 保留通過這樣討論實在沒什麼意思啦 非常悲哀啦司法法治委員會 這樣討論真的是我們對不起國人請陳培宇委員發言 謝謝好 謝謝主席喔 我其實非常遺憾聽到王宏威委員說"},{"start":27808.78,"end":27810.641,"text":"這2000多億需要花這麼多時間討論嗎我就問你覺得不需要嗎你的意思是公開告訴國人國民黨委員的素質就是2000多億不用花一整天討論更不用講早上12點以前主席就沒收了發言"},{"start":27826.454,"end":27843.699,"text":"你們又不敢停止討論就只敢喊休息下午兩點半開始每一個委員又只能限制發言三分鐘甚至相關的官員坐在後面也沒有辦法好好講話所以就國民黨民眾黨來說全台灣人人民的納稅錢兩千多億不值得你一個立法委員好好上班坐在這裡討論嗎我就問"},{"start":27846.789,"end":27871.545,"text":"而現在更荒謬的是你們繼續說這些人現在要活不下去了沒有辦法上餐館五顆蛋變三顆蛋這樣的話我想全台灣人民都聽見了而這個荒謬的數字我要再講一次給所有委員聽而且我要提醒的是我們今天都沒有在講空飯的概念我們一直提出正確的數字想要拜託在野黨的委員停止這個荒謬的修法"},{"start":27874.907,"end":27888.251,"text":"我們來看一下114年全體退休公務人員平均10支月退休所得是50656元而退休的教育人員是57973公教平均超過55000的佔比是33%和68%"},{"start":27898.735,"end":27918.411,"text":"更讓大家覺得很不可思議很羨慕的數字是超過六萬塊的有百分之二十一和四十一也就是在公教的部分是二十一跟四十一的人是超過六萬元如果值等更高的退休金當然也就更多而年改後的退休者"},{"start":27919.051,"end":27935.237,"text":"因為他們在現職服務在公教的崗位上的時候有多次的調薪因此我要再次提醒平均的實資月退休所得都高於我剛剛念的平均數字公務人員會從108年的51546元增加到114年的58995元"},{"start":27944.861,"end":27968.703,"text":"教育人員會從58,688元增加到63,934元請在野黨委員播一下你們的計算機這樣的退休金你跟我說他沒有辦法上餐館你甚至跟我說他沒有辦法繳他退休後的房貸我認為全台灣人民納稅人都聽不下去"},{"start":27969.824,"end":27992.295,"text":"而這樣的數字你們認為是要拿來照顧一個退休的人是不夠的但我要提醒這個退休合理的職業退休金制度的設計是維持基本經濟生活它一點都不應該包含照顧家庭成員跟支應全部的生活支出還聽到房貸這兩個字真的讓我覺得非常的驚訝"},{"start":27993.556,"end":28003.624,"text":"而不要忘記了台灣有社安網台灣有完整的長照醫療制度我相信在不同的委員會上不同的委員關心相關議題也都非常的清楚台灣的社福醫療支出屢創新高很多委員在地方上也聽到長照2.0做得非常的好而這些醫療的所需都是屬於國家整體社會福利政策的範疇"},{"start":28018.795,"end":28038.928,"text":"本來就不應該是相關退府基金最是提撥率下要去負擔的項目所以我要拜託委員兩千多億絕對值得你好好坐在這裡一天兩天三天好好討論而不是坐在對面抱怨兩千多億不值得你花時間坐在這裡討論更不要講王宏威委員您早上還沒有出現 謝謝對不起我抗一下他說我早上沒有出現眼睛瞎了"},{"start":28048.697,"end":28077.129,"text":"好我想今天的這個程序發言表決完就走我們今天所有的討論國會頻道都有轉播所以誰有在場誰沒有在場清清楚楚那接下來我們就請中嘉賓委員發言我想在主席的強力控制之下在場的其他沒有登記發言的委員就是等著要表決或者是要喊保留或者是說等著把這個法案送出去但是我還是必須透過逐條的方式來說明一下這一次國民黨版"},{"start":28077.549,"end":28104.717,"text":"包括由民眾黨支持的這些所謂的年金反改革方案大概集中在現在38或說37條的副表3或者說37條的第5項以及第67條這其中包含三個重點第一個就是停止降低所得替代率不管是從80降到70還是從75降到60不管是分10年還是分15年其實年金改革一個最重要精神就是回歸到公教退府"},{"start":28105.197,"end":28133.713,"text":"他不應該提領的少而提存的少而提領的多我們想想看如果一個人工作25年卻要在後面退休後去領35年請問他在職期間豈不是全部繳來的薪水都要繳出去提存才能支應他退休後的生活嗎所以基本上各國的年金制度很少超過我們所得替代率五成或六成的"},{"start":28134.073,"end":28148.731,"text":"那目前我們抓最上面降到所得替代率六成百分之六十這是一個非常合理的但是如果還要把所得替代率逐年調降到六十這樣的情況擋下來那無意的就是拿自己"},{"start":28149.252,"end":28153.916,"text":"也是拿整個退府基金來開玩笑那麼剛剛我很遺憾的聽到國民黨在野黨的委員說這個就拿什麼就撥補啊撥補兩千多一三千那沒什麼我還是要提醒一下今天根據我們預算法跟財政紀律法我們做任何法律的調整必須找到裁員"},{"start":28168.85,"end":28189.536,"text":"請問一下這些未來認為沒什麼2800億 3000億這個撥補啊政府就用納稅人家撥補啊財源在哪裡彷彿我們立法委員就把全民未來的稅金就可以任意揮霍我們可以去決定明年的預算收入要怎麼支應那是我們今年的審議我們不能決定後年 大後年"},{"start":28192.637,"end":28220.634,"text":"我們現在超越了特別預算的一個限制要去決定未來20年我們要多撥補幾千億這是違反財政紀律法違反預算法的行為再來提到這個現職人員跟退休人員跟現職人員一併調薪這更可笑啊現職人員 很多退休人員多政府應該把這些有限的預算資源花在現職人員提高他們的薪資改善他們的待遇而不是花在退職人員 退休人員"},{"start":28221.514,"end":28245.198,"text":"退休人員週休七天領七成週休七天領七成就是現在國民黨反年金改革後退休人員的寫照現職人員請何以堪所以我是要強調或許第67條的部分誤條的部分可以討論所以我們覺得認真持平來看這是國民黨所提的版本反年金改的版本"},{"start":28245.598,"end":28265.806,"text":"他不管是停止調降所得替代率或者要求限職退休人員比照限職人員來調薪這是完全違逆不只違逆了整個世界合理的潮流也違反了財政紀律法違反了預算法違反了立法委員為人民看守荷包的權責那如果說要認真來討論67條的誤條我覺得倒是可以持平來討論因為原來就有這樣的機制如果覺得不夠好我們可以來調整所以我再次的也呼籲主席"},{"start":28274.609,"end":28295.37,"text":"現在我們接下來還有一個條文那裡面我看也是有民進黨登記發言那顯然的主席的意圖就是將今天的議程能夠呢送出委員會然後呢我們全民包括我們全民在未來的30年40年就持續要為今天這個違反財政紀律法違反預算法的修法來付出代價以上"},{"start":28299.596,"end":28318.331,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言我稍微補充因為在德國法上面的話他們退休公務人員的退休金是隨著限職公務人員做調整的所以這邊的話沒有我剛剛是我是補充一下謝謝那接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":28319.602,"end":28348.396,"text":"不要惱羞成怒 人家德國法學專家在電你就開始惱羞成怒了中委員 我想請您不要那麼激動 請您不要激動主席有主席的發言權 你也尊重他你也尊重他你也尊重他好 那麼好 中委員好啦 我們接下來就請林倩琴委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":28350.903,"end":28376.076,"text":"謝謝主席我們翁朝偉還有福原同仁大家好針對這一條本席在這邊再一次強調整個年金改革不是要讓長年奉獻國家的公務人員越活越窮現行的每年遞減1.5%的所得替代率的制度已經不是改革而是漸漸削弱退休族群的基本生活的一個保障產生一個制度性的錯誤"},{"start":28377.256,"end":28403.658,"text":"那我這邊幾點的這個建議跟討論第一個是第一個部分是制度的公平那我早上這樣聽下來許多人都談說馬英九總統開始這樣一個年金改革那我覺得這是很負責任的一個作為因為年金產生問題其實在政府的運作上是很值得檢討的所以他起了這樣一個年金改革的頭但是呢"},{"start":28404.949,"end":28432.402,"text":"整個的政策的一個作為其實需要技術性的一個推動所以後來因為通過的法案是段奕康委員的法案聽起來就早上我們政委員這邊有提出當時的一個補充也就是在馬英九總統當時要推動的時候是一種微調 穩定的推動但是在段奕康委員這個通過的版本聽起來是一種大調產生了一些社會動盪"},{"start":28433.743,"end":28453.451,"text":"那所以呢就有這樣子的一個討論那其實基本上我們現在要做的是一個現值跟退休之間的一個待間公平而不是讓任勞任怨已經為國服務那麼久然後期待最後的這個退休金穩定的這樣一個公務人員被持續性的懲罰而且他們現在也沒有任何的力量來"},{"start":28455.212,"end":28480.081,"text":"這個回應所以根據教育產業工會的一個統計一個任職25年然後在民國85年退休教授如果不停止削減那到92歲的時候所得替代率可能會被砍掉剩下36%那麼這其實在大家最需要錢的時候卻整個錢是被腰斬的所以我們其實今天要討論的是制度如何持續性的被運作好 那"},{"start":28481.301,"end":28493.719,"text":"不管你是恩己制基金制或薪制很重要一點是一個社會契約其實公教人員在這個部分談到的還是一種社會信任跟所謂人性的尊嚴這個社會契約卻這麼粗暴的被"},{"start":28497.805,"end":28516.729,"text":"被使用或者是政府運用這個權力就這麼粗暴的做一些調整跟改變這對於當時一起來簽訂契約的公務人員其實是已經政府違背了社會正義的一個初衷那我這邊我先呼應一下我也希望如果待會行政大會有機會回應應該回應一下審發會委員剛才所提的一個問題我一直沒有聽到那個數據"},{"start":28521.83,"end":28548.049,"text":"他刚才其实有提出说到底113年停砍前后所影响的人是多少然后费用是多少那我感觉到行政单位其实你们可以看看委员的提案然后针对委员这个提案的这个部分给一些相关的数据而不是你们所想的要改革的你们要用的这个技术就一直针对这个技术去提出很多的缩帖可是刚才我听了半天省委员的这个"},{"start":28549.17,"end":28575.819,"text":"很好的一個解決的方式其實今天也沒有被討論我還沒有聽到答案所以我這邊必須呼應一下最後我來提醒一下你們你們一直談到這個缺口但事實上你們在討論的過程當中我們所整理出來的教育部跟權序部之前在對於10年撥補的方案其實有對行政院做這樣一個建議但是行政院這邊要分20年來撥補所以又產生了你們這些所謂的基金的缺口"},{"start":28577.279,"end":28582.678,"text":"他是責任的歸屬啦所以究竟是政府在這個基金的缺口因為行政院"},{"start":28583.737,"end":28589.981,"text":"要分20年來補齊那你們其實認為10年來補齊的話基金的包括利息包括缺口是不是有機會在這個橫貧的狀態下少一點負面的衝擊那我覺得這是政府的責任可是現在聽起來你們都一直在講這個公務人員在提撥的這個責任上好像沒有一定的充足的比例我覺得這個部分可能要分清楚"},{"start":28607.512,"end":28637.172,"text":"我來先就跟你們提醒一下就針對這個法條時間我也就控制在可以的情況內但是如果你們有機會回應的話我覺得沈委員的今天真的要討論的議題也請你們針對我們提出的法條法案裡面的一些相關的內容也給我們一些答案的回應這樣我們也才知道你們不是一直在說我們好像都算不清楚但是我們會有這樣一個提案也應該有我們所算的一個基礎好不好"},{"start":28637.692,"end":28641.575,"text":"主席 各位同仁剛才在前一條37條討論的時候那時候我們的市部長講說這個提前四年我們今天這樣子停止調降這個所得利害率之後提前四年 基金佣金"},{"start":28663.308,"end":28681.545,"text":"那必須要負擔 再負擔4,460億對不對 這個數字嘛 對這個不是說 4,000...不是王國威委員可能理解成說這4,000多億丟進去就沒事了 OK了你看 差4,000多億 差什麼啊這個對政府來講 4,000多億小小一條"},{"start":28683.083,"end":28691.196,"text":"不是 他不是說丟4000多億之後我們的退伏基金就太貧了就沒事了 不是丟這4000多億以後只是回到原來我們預計用盡的4年而已"},{"start":28693.988,"end":28715.954,"text":"他還是用慶啊 他還是用完 用慶也就是說我們今天修了這個法我這樣講應該沒有錯吧 市部長 對不對就是說我們提早這四年的話我們必須要用四千多億的納稅人的錢來補這四年讓他回復到原本我們年金改革所預定用慶的年度就是138年"},{"start":28718.633,"end":28742.293,"text":"對不對 138年 民國138年用盡 那現在我們今天修法之後 它134年就用盡了所以這134年到138年中間要4千多億4千多億之後 如果只丟這4千多億 138年還是沒啦對不對 所以我們要維持 真正要維持這些現在公教人員他們的這個基金的運作政府還投入更多更多"},{"start":28744.199,"end":28760.425,"text":"讓他到時候 到用慶之前政府不能把雙手一攤說啊 不好意思喔 沒了你們這些人退休都不要領了 不可能政府還投入更多 這是納稅人的錢這些錢是什麼呢是那時候納稅的人24年後納稅的人也就是現在少子化之後少的年輕人這些人 那時候要納稅來付付我們現在今天修法下去的這4000多億"},{"start":28775.597,"end":28783.322,"text":"這個在世代正義上面這個就有其實我們今天的修法就是對年輕人的剝削我必須這麼講對我們下一代的人的剝削所以不是說是四千多一補了就沒事了好像說這才提早四年用慶這個四年沒什麼差吧各位這不是鄧小平說的五十年不變"},{"start":28798.935,"end":28818.534,"text":"這才24年後的事24年裡面提早4年你說嚴重不嚴重五分之一 六分之一說短了五分之一 六分之一的壽命你說嚴不嚴重所以所有這些論述我只是要講說我們今天大家在這邊修法"},{"start":28820.285,"end":28845.735,"text":"沒有人希望 希望說大家都希望說我們的選民不管他是什麼樣的身份能夠從國家領越多越好但是這個制度是你領的太多你就會造成下一代的人的負擔你領的太多你就會造成現在在當退休的人領太多就會造成現在在當這個公務人員的人他的他現職跟退休之間的差距過小"},{"start":28848.099,"end":28870.799,"text":"這個都會造成也會打擊現在現職公務人員的士氣這都有很多的問題要討論再來就是剛剛林憲齊委員在講的這部分可能請市部長等一下說明得清楚一點就是就是這個停止調薑之後例如說我們一旦退補基金用盡歸零的時候那這個現在幾歲的人"},{"start":28875.317,"end":28892.052,"text":"現在幾歲的人他受到什麼樣的影響現在幾歲的人受到什麼樣的影響這個東西要講清楚這個是我們今天修法我們就必須讓這些人到時候不要再說我不曉得你們修了之後會影響我我以後可以這個部分把它講清楚好不好好 那麼請事務長也是三分鐘回應 謝謝"},{"start":28899.731,"end":28926.792,"text":"這個影響我們現在有到原來是一百三十八那我們先講新制不理他新制那是另外一個議題現在是如果提早就四年變成一百三十四一百三十四的意思是什麼因為根據內政部的一個推估六十五歲的人大概平均移民年大概還有二十年所以意思是說如果以現在來講二十年後他就會出問題以我自己今年剛好要進入六十五"},{"start":28927.392,"end":28931.044,"text":"也就是說如果你是在一百三十四年挺的時候我就剛剛好到那一年"},{"start":28934.059,"end":28956.949,"text":"就是沒有影響我沒有影響但是我後面還有遺族因為我們後面還有遺族有影響那我意思是說65歲以下的人就會受到影響我用這個數字簡單這樣講所以如果你再往再提更早那當然那個年齡層就會往下降所以我要跟委員報告這個事情至於這些年齡層可能包括已退的人也可能包括限職還沒有退的人"},{"start":28957.429,"end":28977.679,"text":"那人數有多少這個真的我們目前必須要如果要估要去估所以我是告訴你那個年齡大概就抓在那個地方那委員剛剛提到純粹是在講是說新制14以後撥補那個根據現在要提前停止那個是另外一回事簡單講因為新制14我們估算也會往前"},{"start":28978.719,"end":28994.98,"text":"這個提早四年所以根據法律政府一定要撥補這個事情所以差別就在講是說我們都是用十年來跟行政院講說可不可以分十年來撥補那行政院最後採決是用二十年來撥補那個差距在這裡那行政院因為他會總"},{"start":28996.041,"end":29010.9,"text":"統合考慮整個財政的一些議題來做撥補那我跟委員報告因為這法律規定他一定得要撥補他可能會按照精算慢慢反正這個不會馬上虛就是說當然從基金來講你一次給我錢是最好"},{"start":29011.96,"end":29036.167,"text":"可是呢 理財的方式我想行政院一定有一些理財的方式我跟委員報告公保88年開始虧損以前所有救治的一個債務政府就開始撥補可是撥到現在為止就把它全部解決掉了我一直在報告說這個只要法律規定說政府要算得出來撥補他一定會用這個方式差別只是說一次到位還是說分年來撥補但是這是兩個不同撥補的概念"},{"start":29041.872,"end":29059.148,"text":"好 謝謝施部長那麼現登記主條討論發言的委員都已經發言完畢了我們就討論結束那針對第38條及增訂副表三之一包含修正動議一修正動議二就一併保留好"},{"start":29060.555,"end":29075.094,"text":"沒有意義好就是一併保留好的那接下來我們就進行第67條的討論有委員賴氏寶等19人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員林思明等26人提案委員徐宇鎮等20人提案委員"},{"start":29075.954,"end":29102.852,"text":"黃建豪等18人提案委員傅坤祺等21人提案委員王宏威等25人提案委員萬美玲等16人提案委員林倩琦等21人提案委員翁曉琳等16人提案委員黃國昌張祺凱等5人所提修正動議好 那麼我們就現在進行討論那首先先請鍾嘉賓委員那個我先跟你們換一下我先處理的事情 對我先換個好 那就先請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":29105.486,"end":29134.285,"text":"好 没有问题67条在讨论的是定期退付的给予还有给予给付的金额调整的机制就是CPI几趴然后几年要调一次那现行的规定我要强调在我们2017 2018年改的时候就已经非常周延的设想完毕就是退休金的这个给付金额的调整就是CPI的上下5%"},{"start":29137.347,"end":29159.355,"text":"每四年調整一次所以當你CPI如果有超過上下5%那就調一次如果沒有超過你每四年還是要檢討一次它是一個雙重的設置已經是非常充分的希望能夠讓退休金能夠跟得上物價的波動所以原始的設計已經非常清楚"},{"start":29159.975,"end":29185.223,"text":"那現在呢大概有10種11種樣態是在野黨委員提出來的版本有要以CPI從5%降為2%就要調整的也有3%的也有4%的是第一個第二個調整的年限有兩年有三年有四年的都有所以說還有包括徐欣穎委員的版本又比較特別他不是用CPI上下幾%的調整他是用"},{"start":29186.403,"end":29207.824,"text":"高齡家庭物價指數這又是另外一個指數是可能要問一下主計這個是什麼東西所以我要強調我也希望能夠論述這個條文實在沒有必要再更動了因為現在的條文在這幾年已經調了兩次6%調升退休金的這個"},{"start":29211.353,"end":29222.405,"text":"這個%的調已經調了6%已經往上UP6%了那如果硬要改你真的就回到我剛剛講的邏輯他某種程度在懲罰現職工作人員因為你除了"},{"start":29226.687,"end":29247.234,"text":"这个要调然后你们刚刚37条38条又加了一个要跟现役人员的调薪也要跟着调以这几年民进党执政调了4次现役工作人员的调薪调了4次14%的调服马英九当时8年也只调了一次3%"},{"start":29248.855,"end":29262.287,"text":"所以我们现在的执政的政府是非常乐意来保障限职工作人员提升他们的待遇所以已经调了4次14%所以如果刚刚通过你们37 38条要跟限职人员的调薪"},{"start":29263.399,"end":29290.178,"text":"限職人員調幾%他就要調幾%然後又有現在的67條第二個CPI幾%你們要縮短那個又要再調就是調調調 調再調所以退休調的永遠比限職的公務人員多這不只是勞役不均啊這就是你不上工卻同仇或者是不上工更酬勞的條幅高於限職人員這就是對於限職工作公務人員的不公平"},{"start":29290.999,"end":29311.939,"text":"所以這一個條文我是覺得大家當然如果後續在協商的時候民進黨團我們是反對這個條文去動但是我認為這唯一是可以大家可以理性調整如果說覺得5%可以調一下我們4% 3%可以來討論那沒有問題真的就要理性務實科學可以來討論可是大家不要只看這一個條文"},{"start":29313.601,"end":29335.064,"text":"因為它跟37、38條的綁定跟限職人員同樣調它是要一起思考的如果37、38條被你們通過了限職人員調心他要調一次那麼我認為67條要動它我就不叫保留了所以這是我統一的論述最後這可能是我今天司法法治委員會從早到現在可能最後一次有發言的機會"},{"start":29336.846,"end":29351.408,"text":"我真的覺得民主就是要討論而來的民主就是要充分討論而來的沒有討論不是民主我再一次對於這麼重要的改革要喊卡"},{"start":29352.209,"end":29357.61,"text":"重要的改革是人民均享這個正向的成果卻要輕易的修法來走回頭路這件事情我們沒有辦法踐行民主討論的程序充分的發言我真的覺得無比遺憾這是我們為司法法事委員會立下惡習的開始而這個惡習的開始就是翁小玲 昭緯你定下的"},{"start":29376.334,"end":29401.542,"text":"可以了謝謝那個今天我聽到謝謝請要改喔請要改喔這個二席定下真的不好喔變成歷史的罪人喔變成歷史的罪人喔真的不好喔好嗎請你結束那麼如果說您對於我當召委這麼不滿的話我建議您可以下個會期選思委會的召委那接下來請陳美語委員帶下去都沒有意思了啦"},{"start":29403.762,"end":29426.27,"text":"我也很想跟主席報告以前我們在教文的時候因為是涉到非常多學生的權益老師的權益我們都希望每一個條文真的要好好的討論而且我想當時在教文有個非常特殊的氛圍跟司法法是也很不同不管是在野黨的委員執政黨的委員大家都非常關心教育這件事情所以在委員會裡面我們從來不會去設限"},{"start":29428.476,"end":29455.483,"text":"要登記然後還限制時間所以我必須要說這真的才是惡習的開始好 回過來這個條文我們要再次強調剛剛CIA委員已經說了隨著CPI調整現在已經入法了所以如果根據在內黨委員提案的版本就變成要重複兩份的調整隨著CPI要調隨著限職人員也要調而這樣的調法真的會讓在職人員覺得是公平的嗎"},{"start":29456.603,"end":29478.296,"text":"另外如果我們來試算因為我們再次強調所有跟錢有關的我們都必須要認真的試算目前我們來看這幾年CPI的增幅都遠遠超過過往幾年也就是說相關數字對於退休人員來說是漂亮的如果估算到118年的時候還可能累計在調5%"},{"start":29480.177,"end":29495.214,"text":"可是我們看到很可惜的是當正負5%的這個寫法要被在野黨委員改成只有往上的時候才可以調往下的時候不能做調整也就是怎麼樣他都要加好加滿沒有其他的空間這真的非常的荒謬"},{"start":29496.195,"end":29512.893,"text":"而如果來看到了119年以後退休所得替代率不會再調降實質的月退休所得就只會調高我要再一次強調119年以後退休所得替代率不會再調降實質月退休所得就只會再調高"},{"start":29514.431,"end":29532.494,"text":"我要再次強調最後我們來看118年所得替代率的上限是60%而這60%是多少錢呢大概就相當於各個職等最高縫及限職工作者的月薪的71%就是剛剛嘉賓委員所說的月休7天領7成"},{"start":29533.955,"end":29545.119,"text":"如果如同在野黨委員提案的版本變成到115年停止調降替代率是66%可是實際上我要再次強調他們會領到的是78%66跟78差了12%在接下來如果提早到112年替代率是69%可是實際上他們會領到81.6%"},{"start":29555.703,"end":29569.888,"text":"而這樣子的退休所得替代率都比OECD國家社會保險替代率平均略超過50%為高剛剛主席想要強調您是德國法的專家我想不只是法律的層次問題"},{"start":29570.988,"end":29596.559,"text":"到底整個國民對於所謂月退休所得這件事情還有相關替代率我們必須要看清楚不能只有看到所得替代率百分之幾的數字我要再次強調當它透過公式計算之後原本我們看到的百分之六十它其實拿到的錢會是百分之七十一這個是非常重要的數字所以我要想我要再次強調我們坐在這裡討論是有意義是有價值的"},{"start":29597.259,"end":29615.334,"text":"不然到今天等一下一定就會急著送出委員會然後接下來協商也可以想像就是一個過水式的協商最後到院會三讀表決的時候我們除了可能會再收到surprise彩蛋版我們更不知道要怎麼對全國納稅人民交代以上 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":29620.114,"end":29643.075,"text":"好 謝謝 因為主席已經限制登記發言截止了那接下來主席也沒辦法為自己的版本來進行辯護那就很遺憾 自己做的 自己找的我們現在看到這個條件來看這裡面有賴世保委員 傅坤祺委員 徐欽英委員 王宏威委員 萬美玲委員 林思明委員還有黃介豪委員跟翁曉琳委員 這麼多的版本"},{"start":29644.396,"end":29663.893,"text":"獨獨我們翁委員的表案本最獨樹一致其他委員版本都有提到物價指數都有提到或者正負百分之二百分之五或者要三年或者兩年就來檢討一次賴思寶委員還特別規定正百分之二或者是負百分之五的時候正百分之三或負百分之五的時候就來調整"},{"start":29665.433,"end":29684.711,"text":"條文都講啦你有正有負 物價有漲有跌那物價漲的時候要調高啊那跌的時候要不要調低呢有的我們這些委員的版本呢都想得很清楚如果是調了之後超過原來的5%或者調了之後會比原來的低要立法院同意"},{"start":29685.786,"end":29706.161,"text":"這什麼意思 就剛剛陳培文講的只能調高不能調低調高超過5%要立法院同意 立法院會不同意嗎調低的還要立法院同意 立法院敢同意嗎那獨獨我們主席他就一個 他乾脆不用這麼假了何必在那邊調高可以調低不可以他就直接寫什麼時候要誤調"},{"start":29707.242,"end":29725.808,"text":"累計查正3%的時候才調整而且4年調一次如果成長率為0或負數的時候就不調整這才是坦蕩蕩的真小人嘛就是說只能調高不能調低嘛所以這種情況之下這些版本我們很好奇待會國民黨要支持哪個版本"},{"start":29726.929,"end":29745.203,"text":"資準調高不能調低那如果資準調高不能調低就用翁小林版本最好啊就給你明明白白寫嘛只有物價往上的時候我才調物價跌的時候我根本不調那難道這就是我們所說的物調的機制嗎今天任何一個人都覺得退休人員他的退休生活要照顧"},{"start":29746.164,"end":29773.603,"text":"那我們都假設物價會一直提高很難講那如果物價調低了呢那調低了要跟著調低呢所以我是覺得一個法的一個定定啊是正反兩面都要去思考不要說一味的討好現在這些退休的公教人員我相信都是提案委員本身他們很重要的選民基礎但是要奉勸我們國民黨的委員你們的選民基礎 社會基礎不是只有四五十萬的公教人員"},{"start":29775.117,"end":29804.192,"text":"而且這些要來撥補剛剛要講的撥補的這些錢都是全民的納稅錢難道其他的2300萬人不是我們的選民不是我們的社會的基礎嗎所以我覺得看到67條我剛剛有講了67條要談物條可以物價指數還是高齡化程度包括行政委員的都可以討論但是這種只准調高不准調低啊就讓人家看破手腳這種討好式的立法終究會受到歷史的譴責"},{"start":29809.462,"end":29811.985,"text":"主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言"},{"start":29825.498,"end":29838.281,"text":"那主席你就登記發言嘛好不好你有意見就登記發言嘛你都可以無限制發言然後限縮我們的發言你不讓我們發言自己在那邊一直講好那接下來我們可以請又消音了你今天給我"},{"start":29847.85,"end":29858.054,"text":"我希望能夠尊重主席主持會議的權利那麼我們私委會跟別的委員會最重要的不同就是我們很重視秩序接下來我們請王紅薇委員發言"},{"start":29861.392,"end":29883.548,"text":"謝謝主席因為這個條文我也有提案我覺得在很多提案裡面在過去我想有些委員都比我資深大家有不同的版本大家相互尊重你用作一個對單一提案而且做人身攻擊我覺得這個是很不道德也有失一個資深委員的格調"},{"start":29885.149,"end":29896.974,"text":"我的提案我説明一下剛才我們主席有講到你是比照國民年金以及老農年金我在這邊我是比照勞保條例勞保條例第65條第4"},{"start":29900.615,"end":29903.577,"text":"它就是講到正負50%及1該成長率調整值我們都可以可能比照也許我們現在可能很多版本也許應該去做一些整合做以上說明至於我覺得真理越辯越明"},{"start":29920.265,"end":29923.93,"text":"那剛才非常高興的包含那個審發會委員也再次的去跟我們全序部確定也就是說我們修法跟不修法之間的差異到底是什麼到底是什麼按照這個我們全序部提供資料跟說明"},{"start":29938.288,"end":29941.33,"text":"如果我們不修法 我們不修法我們的破產是到公務人員是138年修法就提早4年到134年所以這中間差別是什麼呢今天我們講老半天 我們民進黨的委員講這個會讓我們現役的公務人員領不到這個差別是如果不修法 我們今天不修法的話"},{"start":29968.231,"end":29989.838,"text":"是24年後領不到如果修法的是20年後領不到但是事實上剛才部長也講得非常清楚我們的退府基金負最後的財務責任的就是政府所以你們必須要去做提撥它跟這個勞保不一樣所以本席事實上我現在在推動的就是勞保也要把它的提撥法制化"},{"start":29993.439,"end":29996.24,"text":"讓我們的廣大的勞工也可以得到相關一樣的一個保障這裡面特別講我剛才說其實我們提早4年少挹注退伏基金2800億當然因為你們經過因為你們不是立即去撥補它所以說要分20年撥補4460億"},{"start":30019.807,"end":30024.149,"text":"真的真理越辨越明我們今天我剛才講我不是說不能討論而是我這一整天看到我們民進黨的委員是講到說好像天塌下來了政府要破產這中間差別是20年撥撥4460億所以每一年的差別是多少呢223億"},{"start":30042.276,"end":30045.318,"text":"每一年223億而這4460億如果會造成整個政府破產整個財政那個整個倒塌潰敗的話那我要告訴大家我們現在台電的虧損已經達到4500億了"},{"start":30060.706,"end":30063.488,"text":"跟這個金額還要更多他不是分20年喔他就是這幾年呢就達到4500億的虧損喔所以當你今天把這個修法形容成好像要讓政府整個倒台了整個破產了這個絕對是言過其實在我是引述程序部講法20年撥補4460億平均"},{"start":30087.966,"end":30097.873,"text":"明年223億元這就是我們今天所討論最後真理越辯越明好 謝謝王委員接下來請省發會委員發言在我講我的問題之前我還再一次跟王委員說明你講說勞保怎麼要博普勞保對應的是公保"},{"start":30113.564,"end":30135.055,"text":"老保對應是公保 是保險的撥補跟我們這個職業年金你們一直混在一起從今天一整天開會一直混在一起說老保撥補我們同樣公保政府也在撥補這個是職業年金 這跟老保是不一樣的這個核心序名這個我一定要在這裡要先講清楚那這個"},{"start":30137.548,"end":30159.03,"text":"這個我們大法官這個在4至第782號那時候解釋的時候他有其實有做一個說明對我們今天說這個修法的一個爭議有一個很畫龍點睛的說明他說這個退休金他這個退休的給予這包括月退休金優存的利息這個他都"},{"start":30161.318,"end":30183.218,"text":"他都不是這個工資跟工資給付都是不一樣的所以他的調整機制不應該按照現職人員來調整這個是大法官會議解釋講得非常清楚他說為什麼呢因為退休者基本上退休者他已經沒有工作的事實所以他這個調整他的調整是為什麼要調整是因為要維持他實質生活"},{"start":30185.373,"end":30211.713,"text":"實質的生活才做調整這個是我們來調整這個退休給付的原因那至於現職人員調整薪水那有很多很多更多的複雜原因現職人員調整薪水他可能是因為啊這個這個民間薪資的調整啦或者是這個政府財政的因素考量啦或者是這個這個為了特殊情況要獎勵工作的表現等等有各種不一樣的理由但這些理由"},{"start":30213.103,"end":30222.832,"text":"他因為這些不同的理由調整那你因此來調整退休的給付在法理上大法官認為這是違憲的可是不行所以那時候設計才會用"},{"start":30224.813,"end":30253.888,"text":"用這個依照CPI來做調整這個是如果我們按照CPI來調整那就沒有違憲的問題所以我們當初設計的制度就按照CPI來做這個退休給付的調整那至於這個退休給付按照CPI要做多少幅度的調整這個我覺得我事實上也覺得是可以討論如果大家覺得說現在這樣子的調整的這個檢討的時間太久或者說調整的幅度太小那我們也可以來做調整但是"},{"start":30255.148,"end":30263.315,"text":"他不可以跟限職人員的這個薪資來做到我覺得這個是最基本的 我需要強調的 以上好 那群事部還要再發言嗎那就請施事部長就最後的發言我想37條跟這一條重複講了一個是誰限職 一個是誰在這兩個絕對不可以同時進行"},{"start":30280.589,"end":30303.525,"text":"因為通常那個退休人員的條幅就會非常非常高那至於說我們的看法還是不應該隨限職人員調整因為真的限職人員調整的因素太多了並且我們應應民間的一個競爭力所以比較好的方式還是應該隨著CPI那CPI的方式現在為什麼用5%當初設計因為台灣其他的社會保險制度"},{"start":30304.466,"end":30317.935,"text":"也都是採取正負5%所以如果你要去調整這個大家討論的時候真的也要想想其他的那個社會保險制度一併的一個考量那這個是我們尊重這個大院的一個討論"},{"start":30321.291,"end":30345.725,"text":"好謝謝那麼登記逐條討論發言的委員以及機關代表都已經發言完畢討論結束那麼針對第67條包含修正動議二我們就一併保留那麼本案逐條均已經處理完畢現在做以下宣告第一本案審查完據拟據審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":30347.813,"end":30366.539,"text":"那麼本案必須交由黨團協商那院會討論的時候就由翁小玲召集委員出席說明那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語就授權主席以及議事人員整理然後現在"},{"start":30369.881,"end":30378.566,"text":"那麼現在有林倩琦委員等人提出附議的動議那我們就請議事人員宣讀提案內容"},{"start":30385.558,"end":30412.989,"text":"案有針對第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第六次全體委員會議討論事項所作之各項決議提出覆議並請立即處理是否有當進行公決提案委員 尹倩琦 傅君綺羅志強 王宏威 胡宗憲 宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有異議主席 請議事人員我們前面剛剛那個宣告"},{"start":30414.485,"end":30434.337,"text":"複譯必須是前次表決提醒再複譯我們剛剛有表決嗎你們提這個複譯幹嘛剛剛是主席宣告耶你針對主席宣告做什麼複譯啊請藝術人員說明一下好不好你針對主席要宣什麼複譯如果主席宣告有異議那就要表決有表決你可以再複譯你主席宣告都沒有表決你要再複譯什麼"},{"start":30447.745,"end":30476.227,"text":"真的不用這麼難看啦因為這個復議的動議是針對決議案那我們請主席來說一下相關的法律依據真的搞得這麼難看然後又完全搞錯你對於主席的宣告要復議奉主席指示喔你看他說了奉主席指示不要為難議事人員了不要為難議事人員了沒有人這樣搞的啦"},{"start":30480.105,"end":30496.465,"text":"副總召你從頭到尾討論都沒有出現你就是表決時候才會出現跟黃國昌總召一樣只有表決才會出現請吳委員尊重我們今天最後的這個程序喔那麼我們現在請竹密來講一下這個相關的法律依據請"},{"start":30498.431,"end":30520.683,"text":"立法院議事規則第42條有規定就是決議案附議提出應具備各款的資格議事規則42條那這是剛才每一個都是決議都有做決議主席宣告不是決議主席宣告如果有異議我們透過表決就有決議"},{"start":30522.23,"end":30538.866,"text":"好 那麼既然有異議的話 我們就進行表決針對復議案 我們就採用我們不是針對復議案 我們是針對今天一整天討論的內容主席我們不是針對復議案我們就先請清點在場出席委員人數真的搞得這麼難看 意識規則也亂玩"},{"start":30541.388,"end":30569.754,"text":"好 我們現在有8位出席委員人數那麼在場出席委員有8人 然後現在我們就開始進行表決贊成對 我們剛剛有我剛剛已經講了對 復議案是採用舉手表決那剛剛已經清點了在場人數總共有8位那現在贊成者請舉手贊成復議案的"},{"start":30573.846,"end":30593.236,"text":"請舉手好那0人那麼反對這個議程完全亂搞我們不同意這樣子的表決反對不贏的請舉手好6人好請放下那舉手表決的結果是在場出席委員發言黃國昌今天來兩次吳思瑤又被消音吳思瑤又被消音了"},{"start":30606.954,"end":30613.16,"text":"黃國昌對不起過去的自己不要罵柯建民啦柯建民從頭到尾立場一致我們就是反對你們的年改反他的方案國民黨民眾黨都有到柯建民沒到"}]}},{"id":"17004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17004","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68516bff821a9cb407d5ce64bc183f2abf383051bafb051454befb194bc8e1d9de55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、經濟部、內政部、農業部、交通部、行政院公共工程委員會就「非法棄置到城市採礦：檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查\n(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員林倩綺等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二條、第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(二)及(三)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-05T08:32:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T15:17:00+08:00","duration":24273,"影片長度":"06:44:33","委員發言時間":"08:32:27 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盧憲一及何新淳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1929.049,"end":1955.005,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員及詢問及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定十月三十日上午專題報告邀請衛生福利部部長農業部財政部交通部經濟部數位發展部海洋委員會海洋署就如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵持續強化阻絕疫情於國門"},{"start":1955.885,"end":1970.519,"text":"同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫提出專題報告並被質詢本日會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員盧憲義等14人提出質詢軍警衛生福利部部長財政部關務署副署長蘇淑珍"},{"start":1971.279,"end":1990.074,"text":"農業部動植物防疫檢疫署署長杜麗華中華郵政股份有限公司郵務處處長柯清長經濟部商業發展署副組長簡俊良及數位發展部數位產業署組長林青親幾個相關主管等及其答覆委員蘇清泉所提出面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1991.054,"end":2017.207,"text":"決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定10月29日下午及30日下午討論事項繼續審查行政院行情審議黨團委員分別擬據職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案及21案以及審查委員分別擬據職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案及10案"},{"start":2017.987,"end":2032.031,"text":"本次會議討論事項 經委員王振旭林月琴及林淑芬說明提案 指去114年10月15日第11屆第4會期本會第4次全體委員會議由委員提出修正動議一案本次會議由委員提出修正動議12案 以上共13案"},{"start":2034.492,"end":2062.145,"text":"決議一行政院含情審議職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案審查完略內容如審查結果並按你去審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由劉兆吉委員建國補充說明不需交黨團協商二本法案如有援引條次法制用於調整授權議事人員調整相關立法說明授權行政單位提供審查結果照行政院提案通過"},{"start":2062.825,"end":2065.647,"text":"第9條第22條第2章之1章名第22條之1第22條之3第23條第24條第27條之1第32條第39條第40條第44條第46條第48條第49條第51條第51條之1條文"},{"start":2079.418,"end":2108.152,"text":"第二条 照委员林月琴等21人提案修正通过第六条 照台湾民众党党团提案及委员刘建国等三人所提修正动议修正通过第15条之一修正通过第22条之二 照委员刘建国等三人及委员王玉敏等四人所提修正动议通过第26条 照委员王振旭等23人提案通过第27条 照委员王振旭等23人提案通过第41条 照委员王玉敏 陈金辉 陈昭志等三人所提修正动议通过"},{"start":2108.772,"end":2117.769,"text":"第43条修正通过第45条照委员王振旭等23人提案委员刘建国等3人及委员王玉敏等4人所提修正动议修正通过"},{"start":2119.353,"end":2142.954,"text":"維持現行條文第一條第四條第三十四條第三十五條第三十七條第五十條第五十二條及第五十五條不予採納委員李昆澤等二十七人及委員黃秀芳等二十一人提案第二十二條之一台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條之三委員范雲等十八人及委員黃婕等十六人提案第二十二條之四委員范雲等十八人提案第二十二條之六第二十二條之七"},{"start":2143.454,"end":2158.399,"text":"第二十二條之八第二章之一增列立法說明第六點第二十二條之一修正立法說明第三點通過附帶決議十九項宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2160.951,"end":2181.516,"text":"好議事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請環境部長經濟部內政部農業部交通部行政院公共工程委員會就非法氣質到城市採礦檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":2185.077,"end":2211.502,"text":"專題報告詢答結束後繼續審查噪音管制法第2條第26條及28條條文修正草案共計9案及審查噪音管制法第2條26條及28條條文修正草案計3案那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭之委員林月琴委員"},{"start":2213.973,"end":2240.248,"text":"王振旭委員環境部部長彭啟明部長環管署署長顏旭明署長資源循環署署長賴盈盈經濟部主任秘書莊明池產業發展署副署長周宇新"},{"start":2242.812,"end":2266.663,"text":"產業技術司科長陳俊偉產業園區管理局副組長陳建堂能源署代理組長夏育權地質調查及礦業管理中心專門委員李政鴻內政部國土管理署總工程司游元順"},{"start":2270.033,"end":2293.131,"text":"營建管理組科長曾勝峰農業部次長黃昭清農村發展及水土保持署副署長蘇茂祥資源永續利用司檢任記證林永延畜牧師科長鄭嘉鴻農糧署組長洪毅"},{"start":2301.191,"end":2324.665,"text":"農業署組長陳文生農田水利署組長朱志斌林業及自然保育署組長范嘉祥交通部陸政及道安司副司長廖振源行政司副司長盧清泉"},{"start":2326.59,"end":2353.044,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會技術處副處長徐肇熙接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘謝謝報告主席因為這個量比較大我可不可以到8分鐘左右沒問題好謝謝主席各位委員還有在座的各部會的同仁還有媒體的同仁由我來報告從城市採礦我的簡報"},{"start":2356.178,"end":2366.438,"text":"我的簡報趕快處理從非法棄置到城市採礦那首先跟各位報告因為我昨天晚上也看到一個好 謝謝"},{"start":2370.947,"end":2388.264,"text":"好 謝謝其實我昨天晚上看到的一個影片就是彰化有一個民眾開了一部車子車子裡面全部是垃圾往這個溪裡面直接丟那我一開始嚇了一跳因為是我網友tag給我但是後來我也看到其實是媒體有報導後來被罰了五萬塊"},{"start":2390.146,"end":2405.183,"text":"所以基本上這種所謂的非法氣質在台灣就跟我們一樣不小心把這個菸蒂亂丟一樣對我們來說都是破壞環境所以我今天會有兩個一個角度來跟大家做說明非法氣質我們如何處理然後未來如何精進"},{"start":2406.044,"end":2422.935,"text":"第一個是跟各位報告我們如果非法棄置第一個一定要來查破這個案件所以基本上如何去查獲來嚇阻是最重要的如果查獲之後一定要有一個登錄的系統然後要進入司法的程序例如說他如果是沒有清理完一定要叫刑務委員來負責"},{"start":2423.775,"end":2446.53,"text":"那待會我會再說明說裡面的確是有一些漏洞第三個是如果說進到一個程序之後第三個月就要去巡查一次然後而且要提報這個清理的進度最後才會可以解除列管那以目前環境部所掌握到的我們從101年這10多年來列管的這個案件大概有1153件其中解除列管707件"},{"start":2447.931,"end":2470.562,"text":"還沒有解除裂管的是446件其中一般事業廢棄物是395個地方其中最大的地方就是屬於營建廢棄物大概占了36%左右各位可以看得到每個地方大概都有那其中最多的就是土地面積大當然就有可能會比較多或是說它的這個輸送的這個去化的管道可以很快"},{"start":2470.982,"end":2499.537,"text":"很方便所以各位可以看到大概就是以我們南投或是中南部為主桃園也有所以基本上每個地方都有存在這個類似的一個問題那當然也有一些有害廢棄物大概是佔了16處其中也包含了這個一般是廢的話也有廢塑膠還有廢液等等的這個案件有446件是正在列管當中那這裡面我們發現了有幾個問題首先在法規上面雖然我們有法規有廢清法"},{"start":2500.057,"end":2520.649,"text":"但是現在呢這種犯罪者還是敢於停而走險就很像說我們覺得亂丟垃圾呃這個不可以的可是很多人就是當成習慣這樣往上丟但是現在的這個科技是可以去抓到的第二個呢是我們目前的法規無法及時扣押這種氣質的行為而且我們要這個行為人要負擔這樣的一個"},{"start":2521.209,"end":2550.769,"text":"一個最後清除的動作所以導致現在大家會有覺得環境復原非常的緩慢這個是我們現在法規上面可以有缺陷的地方那實務上呢其實因為這個現在的環保犯罪日新月異等於是說過去是這種環保敗類現在是環保斯文敗類等於是說他隱藏在我們社會當中是非常斯文的一個人所以我們是一種組織型的專業分工也讓我們必須要精進所以我們有右邊的解方有三個第一個一定要跨域合作"},{"start":2551.149,"end":2568.329,"text":"所以現在這個檢警還調已經有一個平台我們不斷的透過資源共享能夠精準打擊第二個我們要裝非法的氣質的智慧的圍籬能夠掌握各種的車輛因為這個凡走過必留下痕跡第三個是要做修法廢清法"},{"start":2568.769,"end":2590.309,"text":"的加重還有債權的保全的一個程序我們都會加重那我以這個營建物產出物為例各位知道我們現在營建物產出物非常的多像南部北部全部都有那其實這個就包含了營建工程或是拆除工程或是裝修工程這些產出如果是好的話他其實是可以城市採礦可以循環再利用的可是如果處理的不好"},{"start":2590.709,"end":2596.216,"text":"就變成廢棄物了那廢棄物其實我們過去都有土資廠 混合廠廢棄物處理廠但是隨著我們社會的進步過去這個廠都會變成零幣設施所以每個縣市如果不重視這個問題的話就會往別的縣市來倒"},{"start":2606.63,"end":2622.113,"text":"所以基本上有三個漏洞一個是變成是一個營建土石方跟廢棄物兩個混在一起第二個是沒有追蹤營建土石方沒有追蹤我們營建廢棄物是環境部管的有追蹤這個土石方過去是沒有追蹤第三個是我們最終去化的這個地點"},{"start":2623.174,"end":2638.194,"text":"不夠量不夠才會讓他們鋌而走險所以我們現在呢要怎麼去處理呢在今年的5月其實我們從去年本人上任之後也謝謝內政部還有跨部會的一起努力合作由行政院在今年有核定的這個土石方的這個計劃"},{"start":2639.716,"end":2660.541,"text":"有環境部跟內政部兩個都是跨部會來處理這個事情而且呢我們也跟地方政府有來合作所以有四個方向一個是拓增去化的量能第二個管理的強度顯著的增加第三個智慧維尼第四個推動修法的一個作業首先呢這個經濟措施呢全台灣呢其實土資的這個去化"},{"start":2661.281,"end":2677.53,"text":"過去的確是量能找不到不是很多但是現在我們經由公共工程委員會等等跨部會找出了四大的區段的徵收計畫還有這個填海造路還有掩埋型的這個土質廠都把它找出來我們把這個量整個最大的量"},{"start":2678.01,"end":2702.983,"text":"大概有15110萬方的量但是這個是目前我們預估的最大量其實還是需要陸續的在開發當中我們希望這個去化量可以夠才可以解決這個問題第二個是減緊環調的一個合作我們從112年8月到現在為止查扣了非常多 1000多人然後總共犯罪水德是41億然後機具行政法管3000多萬元"},{"start":2705.024,"end":2722.041,"text":"這個是過去來說的話我們都比往年來高很多但我是希望可以更高起到嚇阻的作用這裡面的最重要的一個是我們會強化這個全國廢棄物遠端的合作計畫目前我們已經跟行政院爭取到從明年開始的這個未來有三年三四年期的一個計畫會導入AI"},{"start":2724.163,"end":2746.903,"text":"也就是說除了這個車牌辨識之外GPS我們會把它整合在一起用這個資訊化的設備來辦案那另外一個是加重非法刑責的清理我們過去法規是一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑而且是病科罰金1500萬以下的罰金我們未來會強化到一年以上七年以下這個金額的部分因為我們這個"},{"start":2748.464,"end":2771.659,"text":"我們的這個法務單位他們認為必須要有所對等所以基本上這個一千五是很難去調整的但是這個我們也尊重我們的這個法治單位的一個建議但是我們如果在農地或是我們公告的敏感環境敏感區會加重刑期到二分之一也就是說會超過兩千萬所以這個基本上我們是用這樣的方式來做處理的"},{"start":2772.179,"end":2787.84,"text":"那另外一個呢是最重要的是提前債權保全目前呢是為什麼很慢我們一定要找到行為人然後把他帶回球場來處理所以我們不可能這時候編預算來清理這些事情所以未來呢只要書面行政處面送達我們馬上就會進行假扣押"},{"start":2788.32,"end":2810.876,"text":"在這個之前其實要申請這個行為人之前他們都會脫產現在呢我們會用這樣的方式這樣的手段會快速的來做處理而且如果說是這個銀線工地如果沒有好好處理的話他的處置的義務人都會負有連帶責任包含了負責人大股東都會有連帶責任我覺得這樣的一個重法才可以讓大家才可以警惕這樣的一個問題"},{"start":2811.897,"end":2827.794,"text":"那另外一個呢是我這邊最後一個想這樣的小結等於是說這樣的一個工作呢其實不是只有本部做我們已經串聯了各個縣市市政府都處理一個平台那目前呢也跟各位報告我們是明年其實我們今年就在規劃這個事情也都拜訪了"},{"start":2829.335,"end":2848.365,"text":"有些縣市已經開始在運作當中包含了這個土資的平台等等都有在運作有些縣市正在開始我們都希望各個縣市都可以清除它的一個流向特別是說去化量能不夠的地方各個縣市一定要自己努力來解決我們用科技監控加重行則還有檢警環調結盟能夠來解決這個問題"},{"start":2850.586,"end":2870.391,"text":"那第二個部分跟各位報告城市採礦其實這個城市採礦是我們未來國家發展很重要的一環那本人其實我們其實過去就很注重這一塊包含在總統府的氣候變遷對策委員會本人也報告了我們整合臺灣關鍵與戰略資源的國家隊不是只有剛剛前面的這個所謂的營建的這個採礦"},{"start":2871.391,"end":2890.747,"text":"我們包含了城市裡面各種的物質的這個採礦包含我們生活裡面的手機等等我們都應該來看所以這個的城市就比剛剛的營建土石方都要高很多所以這個裡面呢就包含了關鍵物料跟戰略物資等等我們過去這兩個都的確是仰賴進口那我們呢本部呢也跟這個經濟部一起"},{"start":2892.448,"end":2910.296,"text":"盤點的關鍵與戰略物資的流向包含了輸入包含有這個ABCDEF等等的產品的原料或是說產品等等我們使用販賣之後他變成廢棄物排出之後他如何處理目前的這個回收體系呢我們發現到以這個右邊這個H類5.57萬噸這個裡面的大多數包含了銅鋁"},{"start":2915.919,"end":2932.612,"text":"污 镍 锂等等大概都是输出的我们希望回到台湾进行一个更好的内循环所以这个就是我们希望关注的焦点把这个做好一个一个妥善的内循环的处理那我们现在怎么处理呢其实这个里面是产业来推动的"},{"start":2932.952,"end":2957.217,"text":"所以我們很積極的跟產業來座談也去實際的訪查那這個的確台灣有很多的隱形冠軍都在做這個事情所以我們也舉辦一些論壇共同來把他們的需要的痛點需要政府過去沒有好好去輔導他們的我們有沒有什麼法規制度能夠來協助這些產業可以發展起來所以我們已經進行了這個產業的量能的盤點我們會跟經濟部一起合作"},{"start":2957.677,"end":2979.76,"text":"那未來我們會聚焦四類的關鍵戰略金屬因為這個主要是有產業需求而且有供應鏈的一個風險而且我們國內已經有回收技術這個每個國家不大一樣那最近的全世界都在談論這個問題我們也都跟經濟部都有準備好第一個是單一金屬包含了銅鋁屋這個是我們的電子建築業的很重要的一個基礎材料"},{"start":2980.26,"end":3001.027,"text":"第二个是锡柜金属像金银薄把等等这个是半导体的晶片跟高阶电子零组件第三个是能源的金属包含的锂 钴 镍等等这个对我们的未来的电池的制造业是有影响第四个是稀土的元素包含了家电的这个冷气的马达等等这个里面就有很多的像这个是铝 铁 铁"},{"start":3003.228,"end":3017.176,"text":"這個都是一個所謂的稀土金屬我們都必須把它的量盤點出來這個供需之間能夠達到一個平衡是我們最主要的一個目的所以我們要怎麼做呢第一個要盤點目前的這個盤點還是持續在進行當中因為這每一個"},{"start":3017.836,"end":3046.655,"text":"每一個金屬都有它每一個產業特殊的學問不是跟那個一般的很不一樣所以我們必須把這個產業跟我們政府一起來合作那我們政府如果法令或是各種制度可以修改的話就可以來做我們希望能夠來進行可回收再利用的廢棄物資源的種類做得更好那我們最希望的是促進因為現在這些東西大多數都是到國外去好的錢給別人賺走了我們希望資源留在國內循環使用但是我必須強調這個是"},{"start":3048.537,"end":3069.951,"text":"都有嚴格的規定不能造成我們台灣本地的一個污染我們希望透過法規與經濟優因能夠留在國內第三個業者也提出了他包含的原料用地或技術升級都需要政府的幫忙所以我們現在正在評估是不是可以打造一個更好的一個產業的環境所以最後今天感謝主席安排這兩個主題"},{"start":3070.711,"end":3096.136,"text":"所以我們第一個要跨域合作其實這個不是環境部可以做的要很多部會一起來推動檢警環跨域的結盟我們最主要是城市採礦跟關鍵資源的循環利用我們要用科技執法來嚇阻這種所謂的環保斯文犯罪能夠讓他這個能夠想要犯罪的時候知道說他被抓到的機率是非常高的絕對不是只有司機或是駕駛或是等等而已下游而已我們要強化修法"},{"start":3096.736,"end":3122.988,"text":"目前這個法規也在行政院在審議當中目前院長也特別有指示所以未來我們希望未來這一兩個月內可以送到大院還希望各位委員可以給我們支持一起來實踐環境保護與志願永續最後我們認為今天這個題目其實實踐了破壞環境就是一種罪這是教宗 前教宗方濟各所說的本部會以這樣的一個信念來執行各種的這種執法或是各種的痛點我們希望能夠來改進 謝謝"},{"start":3127.193,"end":3133.852,"text":"好 謝謝彭部長的報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":3135.374,"end":3160.364,"text":"現在開始尋答做以下宣告本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭姿發言"},{"start":3166.872,"end":3167.557,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩彭部長"},{"start":3172.791,"end":3200.964,"text":"陳委員好部長早部長前天那個租賓的疫調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已"},{"start":3201.964,"end":3225.059,"text":"邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個"},{"start":3226.62,"end":3241.197,"text":"這個病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是這個從機場但是因為守法大多數絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的這個看法如何"},{"start":3241.797,"end":3269.19,"text":"因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些案場但是不是多 多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個案場恰恰案場的確是便宜形式我的意思是說如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊台灣哪 又不是台灣的病毒株種"},{"start":3269.97,"end":3285.701,"text":"所以他一定是外來的啊他外來但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理的相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法是不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主"},{"start":3286.571,"end":3301.105,"text":"珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用common sense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員因為在台灣的廚藝裡還得了"},{"start":3302.706,"end":3323.14,"text":"以我們來說如果說他這個珍珠一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議他長期處於去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議紀錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎"},{"start":3324.231,"end":3338.239,"text":"我們每天都有回憶 這個是沒有問題的好 那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室 謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化"},{"start":3339.7,"end":3354.346,"text":"請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次的應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化"},{"start":3358.468,"end":3385.85,"text":"也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的 報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬"},{"start":3387.631,"end":3412.588,"text":"那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重"},{"start":3414.429,"end":3436.903,"text":"部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":3438.985,"end":3455.061,"text":"第一個是這個我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的發現它代表環境部那是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚餘背書呢"},{"start":3455.712,"end":3483.92,"text":"沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎"},{"start":3485.26,"end":3499.366,"text":"那環境部說不會有帶澳新 叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關 那都不同調欸我要請教部長 對啊你如何解決這個問題呢 不同調欸好 謝謝委員 那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話"},{"start":3500.786,"end":3518.494,"text":"其實那個綠可以被去掉就是沒有代澳比較沒有代澳新的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個代澳新的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個會會來"},{"start":3519.875,"end":3538.871,"text":"政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在他這個還掛在這個網站上那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的焚化爐也可以偵測也可以管理當然當然我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個"},{"start":3539.851,"end":3560.041,"text":"對 我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對 其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水的廚餘水太多如果把它瀝乾 基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好 技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置 它的代溫性就不會跑出來"},{"start":3562.422,"end":3586.545,"text":"你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求"},{"start":3587.145,"end":3606.542,"text":"那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在"},{"start":3608.604,"end":3626.419,"text":"包委員 因為這個10×10×0.5 覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前 早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸碰 就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了 你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的"},{"start":3628.821,"end":3648.778,"text":"110年就早就公佈了 各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分 然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼 執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西可以一致吧如果掩埋 這個一致沒問題但是這個早就110年 早就變我們的標準流程大家要同調同步啦"},{"start":3649.318,"end":3674.114,"text":"那那個最後就是環境這個挺直文教基金會謝董事長投書他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個廚藝垃圾嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用的循環利用力非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個廚藝的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西"},{"start":3674.494,"end":3692.486,"text":"所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號那沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深 責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個好 謝謝委員 說很容易啦 做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的我會比他說的"},{"start":3694.927,"end":3712.133,"text":"很多的國家的我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來都變得嫌惡設施啦所以大家會地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動"},{"start":3715.275,"end":3743.897,"text":"因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要 都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦 做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了"},{"start":3744.755,"end":3750.379,"text":"這是部長的肩膀上的責任嘛是是 我們已經有在推動了 政府跟民進一起來好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":3765.329,"end":3786.085,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想本席上週在本委會就特別強調台中非洲豬瘟的事件中央各單位要強烈的介入不要再讓地方這種叫胡搞瞎搞的狀況一直發生因為醫院有清消兩次"},{"start":3787.014,"end":3806.094,"text":"然後還會驗出陽性嘛再來就最終還拜託了國軍再度這個化學兵進入傾銷那台中市怎麼又馬上派人又再去傾銷一次這很奇怪啦我想是說從整個這個事件的一個過程裡面傾銷應變來自己處理"},{"start":3810.098,"end":3822.534,"text":"整個畫面呈現在國連的面前會覺得是很亂毫無彰化的在應變這件事情我覺得這樣坦白講"},{"start":3826.841,"end":3846.787,"text":"這種處理方式真的會害死這些養豬場這些養豬戶然後甚至會影響到國人吃這個溫體豬肉然後以系列的所有的攤商都會受到很嚴重的這樣的一個傷害跟挑戰所以我坦白講我是真的要在這邊做強力的一個譴責部長你請起來"},{"start":3851.099,"end":3875.287,"text":"你在11月1號有到雲林出席雲林就是全國養豬最大最大最大宗的縣市那你在參加這個環保這個群林志工會的時候你有特別接受媒體的採訪你是希望說朝你中長期方案把會期物的觀念轉化為資源但是我要在這邊提醒部長這眼下的廚餘流向已經出了很大的問題"},{"start":3876.707,"end":3896.35,"text":"已經來不及等你以後還要轉會為能了真的會趕不上來了從應變中心調查報告中初步可以了解疫情僅在台中的武器廠然後病毒恐來自未落實增足的廚餘"},{"start":3897.928,"end":3915.396,"text":"我現在每一個細節我都講得很清楚了請部長就希望我的這樣的一個質詢可以提醒一些事情但這個處理到底是從哪邊來目前沒有比較明確的方向照這個表 部長可以看一下嘛無期清潔隊的處理是陰性"},{"start":3916.624,"end":3930.61,"text":"無期清潔隊的處理是陰性所以初步可以排除來自清潔隊但載運處理的車輛上有驗到非洲豬瘟陽性反應依照台中市政府的說法處理飆收後是由業者自行派車載運"},{"start":3932.301,"end":3959.449,"text":"也就是說這台車到底接觸到到哪有非洲豬瘟的病毒應該是這次查明這事件的重中之重對不對不過到現在好像要查起來應該是很費工了很費工不過還是要查還是要查第一個是清潔隊無期清潔隊的處理是陰性的但是載運的這台車輛是驗到有非洲豬瘟呈陽性那到底是不是處理出問題"},{"start":3963.447,"end":3973.699,"text":"那到底是不是廚餘出問題這是一件事情嘛那第二件事情在整個調查報告中竟然還多出一個西養豬場然後這家無竊養豬場就是這個暗場竟然還可以違規分讓多餘的廚餘給西養豬場使用"},{"start":3983.278,"end":3993.704,"text":"這是什麼樣的狀況啦他還要用到中間給溪場去用最重要的喔溪養豬場沒有標授無期清潔隊的廚餘卻能從無期清潔隊再去載廚餘回來養豬這個表格很清楚嘛對不對這問題真的實在是"},{"start":4009.209,"end":4034.668,"text":"不要說養豬戶啦現在連消費者都看的都會物理看的話也都非常驚訝說怎麼有這樣的一個一個方向軸板的那不叫管理啊那等於是沒有在管理嘛應該是這麼說嘛那現在這台車這台車到底它的整個路徑有沒有辦法去追查出來"},{"start":4036.278,"end":4061.483,"text":"這台有驗到陽性反應的這台車有沒有辦法去了解它的路徑怎麼樣有沒有從這個地方去追查下去部長就你的掌握跟了解報告委員我所知道是這個載送的目前是沒有GPS啦所以等於是透過包含了各種的車級資料還有照相機等等我們可以提供的包含了這個處理的去向各種的資料我們都已經給檢調單位去處理了"},{"start":4063.883,"end":4090.869,"text":"所以這個至於說這個東西因為我沒有參與在這個疫調的這個過程所以我不清楚但是其實可能是的確是很困難的但是我們這邊是負責這個珍珠那的確那家是沒有落實珍珠的然後也跟委員報告委員剛才說的西洋豬場這個的確是違規的從這個我們的廚餘一家就是簽約就是那家不能再去分送給別人這個也是完全是違規可以會受罰的他會受罰我知道了但是"},{"start":4091.431,"end":4119.239,"text":"但是他會受啊 但是為什麼這一個他沒有去標這個武器清潔隊的廚餘這個西洋豬場還可以跑到這個武器清潔隊去載送這個廚餘那這兩照可以接受到什麼處罰一個是工部門的清潔隊 一個是西洋豬場對 這個會依照我們的廢清法不知道第幾條 有一條他們昨天 我們昨天有匯報這個事情是完全會開罰的"},{"start":4121.429,"end":4140.425,"text":"請上來說明一下好不好飼料法針對公部門還有針對這個西洋豬場怎麼採訪怎麼處理他這個因為是屬於飼料的轉移大概是用飼料管理法跟這個動物疾病防治條例來做處分"},{"start":4141.512,"end":4160.099,"text":"對 怎麼處分嘛 你知道這兩個條例對公部門 清潔隊怎麼處理對這個西洋署長怎麼處理請署長是不是可以說明清楚一點我們想了解一下因為這個不說明清楚我想現在是禁運然後禁止廚餘"},{"start":4163.582,"end":4173.207,"text":"包委員 這個會用動產條例去拆劃然後就是目前的狀況是會給農業部用動產條例跟飼料管理法對 啊怎麼處罰嘛 依照這兩個條例要怎麼處罰嘛是劃緩 劃緩對 啊對清潔隊 對公部門怎麼處理啊對這個西洋組長怎麼處理"},{"start":4195.421,"end":4213.229,"text":"兩邊應該都可以拆滑怎麼拆滑啦 我問第三次了啊你們怎麼到現在沒辦法答覆我這麼簡單 明確法律有明確性嘛清潔隊 清潔隊怎麼可以讓沒有來飆售這個廚餘的西域養豬場來載運這個廚餘工部門怎麼可以公然犯罪違規違法那我們怎麼處理吧"},{"start":4224.912,"end":4249.939,"text":"那西洋豬場怎麼可以去沒有標誌的時候可以直接到工部門的清潔隊去載送 載運這一個廚餘他又應該受到什麼處罰嘛你們怎麼沒有辦法第一時間答覆我 答覆委員會好 包委員 這個我們是不是農業部這邊來回答 回應這個農業部市 市長是不是黃市"},{"start":4255.543,"end":4256.163,"text":"有關於廚餘的部分的話"},{"start":4274.524,"end":4298.482,"text":"這個廚餘工部門沒有標授給西洋豬場西洋豬場怎麼可以去清潔隊載送 載運這個廚餘那清潔隊要負起什麼樣責任那這個去載送西洋豬場要接受到什麼樣的才華主席你要多給我時間我已經問了三分鐘到五分鐘他們都沒有辦法答覆我這樣的問題"},{"start":4301.534,"end":4328.795,"text":"抱歉啦 好不好這太煩了你們這個太離譜了你們不管地方 不管中央 我覺得這叫做應變這個叫應變我就問這個題目 到現在沒辦法答覆我所以 他們才敢肆無淡計的持續的違法到這種程度嘛"},{"start":4330.799,"end":4345.504,"text":"所以等於就是沒有管理嘛就是沒有管理嘛就不然你想要中長期的轉匯維能基本上如果照這樣的情況下去不可能啦可以打呼我了嗎"},{"start":4348.582,"end":4372.027,"text":"各位委員報告好那如果這個部分的話我們是認為應該是由這個動船條例裡面的這個因為它造成的這個疫情的這樣的一個部分但是因為動船條例裡面它的這個規定的這個項目比較多所以要引用哪一個條例的罰則的部分我們還需要再來研議市長它造成疫情"},{"start":4373.126,"end":4392.402,"text":"是一件事情 他沒有造成疫情平常遇到這種事情你們就怎麼管理 你們就怎麼處理嘛如果平常遇到這樣的事情的話應該是依照這個廢新法還有這個飼料法的這個部分來處理因為他不是在這個合約廠商裡面飼料法不是你們管的嗎我們的罰則是3到300萬的這個3到300萬是罰台中武器清潔隊還是罰西洋豬場"},{"start":4403.459,"end":4422.275,"text":"行為人 行為人 行為人 兩個都是行為人啊沒有合約怎麼清潔隊敢把廚藝讓他們來載運就公務人員的部分應該是有公務人員的這個職權的這個部分來做採取怎麼採取嘛 怎麼採取嘛"},{"start":4427.332,"end":4456.545,"text":"我現在是指疫情尚未爆發之前持續的有這種事情發生公部門必須負起什麼責任西洋豬場必須接受什麼樣的裁划發生疫情之後這兩兆要受到懲罰程度絕對有層次上的不一樣我們先講前面 再來講後面你們連前面都講不清楚你要怎麼去督導地方啊"},{"start":4457.708,"end":4486.145,"text":"你要怎麼去管理啊我後面還有很多題目要問咧我把這題你到現在不知道回答給我啊你在應變什麼啊應變中心不是跨部會所有重要的單位都必須集結然後用最快速的方法去做因應然後該怎麼樣處理 該怎麼處罰第一個時間因為已經碰到疫情發生了"},{"start":4491.414,"end":4517.125,"text":"難道進宅進運進處理的過程裡面你中央政府跟地方政府在公休啊其實我們昨天有在討論這個事情啦是不是說明一下因為我們昨天有特別我跟我副因為我副組長他過去就在處理處理他比較清楚那跟委員報告這一個是因為他跟原來的申請的事項不同而"},{"start":4518.75,"end":4538.24,"text":"現在檢察官也在偵辦可能朝向這個檢察官處理是檢察官在處理在行政的處罰上我們什麼樣的作為嘛就這樣而已啊我問的問題不簡單嗎然後你可以分疫情前跟疫情後我都可以接受你就明確的表達說明清楚嘛"},{"start":4539.009,"end":4550.605,"text":"跟委員報告那非法載運儲餘的罰則會因為這個不同的樣態然後觸犯的這個條例可能有廢清法還有洞傳法還有飼料管理法那包括了如果是一般的違規的話那會"},{"start":4554.95,"end":4576.702,"text":"夾帶廚餘的這樣的垃圾的樣態會罰到一千二到六千元的罰則但是像這個樣態的話是非法載運廚餘給禁止的這個就是他不是經合格的這個養豬場的話那我們依據這個動產條例那處新台幣五萬以上一百萬以下的罰款那累犯的話會加計罰則的這個部分那另外"},{"start":4577.142,"end":4603.163,"text":"因為他未經許可那處理廢棄物包括廚餘那可以依照廢棄法來處以新台幣六萬以上三百萬以下的罰款那其他的這個部分那如果有違反了這個飼料管理法的這個部分那我們會依照飼料管理法的部分處以三萬到三百萬以下的罰款大概是目前我們能夠去查照他的這個相關的行為規則所必須要負的責任是這樣子"},{"start":4604.683,"end":4632.393,"text":"市長還有那個部長我希望你們把明確我剛剛提出來這個點疫情前疫情後針對武器清潔隊針對西洋豬場該怎麼處罰該怎麼樣的處理方式用書面資料給我們委員會所有委員做參考這第一件事情也公告全國啦好不好但是我要提醒我為什麼要講這一點來講我後面的事情今天趙委排的這個事情非常重要有利可圖啦"},{"start":4634.402,"end":4661.855,"text":"齁 大概都有他們的機會啦連這個廚餘都可以 可以做到這樣的程度你看那些繪圖 他會怎麼處理海洋污染防治法你只要把廚餘請到 請到到海洋 怎麼划你知道嗎 不能說他們可以從新台幣30萬以上 3000萬以下好 廚餘到屏東"},{"start":4663.14,"end":4686.591,"text":"一要闖入胡納場不曉得依照廢清法你要怎麼處理地方的環保局立即有通報東港警分局來做處理嘛對不對當場的查扣然後也移送這個環外公務然後用這個廢法處理其不實申報廢棄物等罪嫌移送平衡地檢署偵辦最高可以怎麼樣依法廢清法6000到300萬6000到300萬"},{"start":4690.615,"end":4716.056,"text":"除以倒在海洋依照海洋污染防治法最高可以划到三千萬我們到現在還在六千到三百萬依照廢清法第46條不行嗎如果依照廢清法第46條可以的話最高到多少你還在六千到三百萬最高到一千五百萬對除以"},{"start":4717.502,"end":4736.401,"text":"丟在海洋 最高可以花三千萬丟在你陸地 如果照部長講的 最高是三百萬如果照署長講的 一飛行環四十六條 一千五百萬怎麼差這麼多 怎麼差這麼多所以這次招委要排這個修滑你對滑款的部分 要不要重新審視"},{"start":4739.298,"end":4751.514,"text":"不能用這樣的差異吧 差太大了吧如果以300跟3000差10倍如果1500到3000是差兩倍不對吧 所以很多人唯利可圖就會跟你拼啦 就會掏門氣會嘛"},{"start":4752.984,"end":4777.425,"text":"拜託 我覺得主席是要回到這個地方來那我也希望 揮桌失誤的事情我剛剛有特別提到如果這個點不是在儲雨是在這一台載運車到現在還沒有辦法很詳細的把這台車的路徑去調查出來我覺得 不管中央跟地方到時候都會監察院見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的發言"},{"start":4783.23,"end":4798.824,"text":"請林月琴委員發言麻煩彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":4801.537,"end":4824.038,"text":"林委員好部長早今天我們談廢棄物處理跟循環經濟我要延續今年初公共政策網民民間團體他給你的建議那你六月也給他們的回覆我能理解不理的考量第一個如果貿然把焚化跟掩埋等末端的處理設施"},{"start":4824.619,"end":4851.347,"text":"排除在出餐法重大公共建設之外地方可能會面臨到財務壓力然後技術能力的弱差那當然你也提到短期不不亦完全排除末端設施的一個出餐適用可是要等到兩三年後如果減量見效的話會努力朝向那個減燒的方向不過基於這個前提我想請教的是說首先現有的審查原則如何把"},{"start":4851.867,"end":4871.4,"text":"我們的廢棄物管理階層列為必要的一個門檻也就是說地方申請以出產方式來興辦末端的設施的時候須先證明已做到的源頭管理分類回收的量化門檻才能進到末端的方案評估所以請部長說明這是不是可行"},{"start":4872.293,"end":4898.695,"text":"委員謝謝 這個其實因為委員你剛才講到一個重點就是說如果說這個量能夠的話這個都不是問題這個未來我覺得焚化爐會慢慢的減少但是現在台灣其實各個縣市因為這個焚化爐是地方的所以他在處理他要透過出差來減少他財政的負擔那如果說按照他們的這樣的一個規劃那這個費用會誰來出就是地方要來出那這個就會增加地方的財務的這個成本所以基本上我們"},{"start":4900.136,"end":4922.053,"text":"這個議題因為我來接觸的時候我也有了解然後我們也問了地方大概有15個縣市都反對所以我們現在基本上我覺得未來長期來看的話應該有機會走到這樣的一個地步但是現階段可能比較困難當然委員說你說廢棄物的管理的階層是不是能夠更高一點點的能夠來整體來思考各個縣市來看的話這個我們會來努力"},{"start":4923.274,"end":4940.441,"text":"對 你要去努力否則一直在獎勵末端的處理的話源頭都是沒有反而是源頭不去做所以如果你建部裡面回覆說二到三年後如果減量成效將努力減燒是不是可以有環境部提出一個"},{"start":4941.301,"end":4955.972,"text":"一板就是跨部會的整個的所謂路線圖就是把地方的那個垃圾成分調查分類積查然後再利用量契約處理這些量一個整個完整的"},{"start":4957.173,"end":4986.833,"text":"每季去做公布然後同時把達標的情形來連動到初餐優惠的適用跟強度來形成一個先減量再給力的一個明確的準則能不能做到我大概是一年大概有看到一個整體統計數據知道每天那是每季能不能達到這個以我現在接觸到的數字大概是一年會有一次的統計的報告例如說我最近看到的是前一陣子討論到看到的就是去年像有些縣市的確那個量"},{"start":4987.173,"end":5015.04,"text":"是很不夠的那可不可以再縮短一點就是半年好 可以…部長 循環經濟要落實要環境永續關鍵是在杜絕票率那國發會主責的國家永續發展獎這算是在民間評比辦理得比較好的可是其他獎項像民間團體之一評選的門檻未跟國際的反票率的機制接軌那麼關心的就是整體企業永續資訊的揭露的一個原則"},{"start":5015.88,"end":5030.34,"text":"机制是什么国际趋势要先要求要先有合理的合规的一个底线再谈环境的那个永续那环境部是否能够建议并协调政府"},{"start":5031.101,"end":5045.844,"text":"主辦的或者是共同主辦的甚至部會參與的環境相關的永續獎可不可以增列說近年一定的期間重大環境違法跟處分的排除條款跟查核機制"},{"start":5046.804,"end":5075.285,"text":"否則他得獎結果你發現他竟然事實上是有違反那不是笑話一則嗎對 謝謝委員因為本部是有這樣的一個精神在本部頒發的獎項啦那別的單位呢像有些是民間的他或許可是更是環境的事實上是相關一體那我也謝謝委員的建議那這個部分呢我們可能可以來研議一下是不是請他們要我們有一些指引出來請他們要照著這樣的方式來處理部長是不是可以建立跨部會那個"},{"start":5077.768,"end":5088.723,"text":"應該就是法尊要去查核的清單講像評審前能夠審查使用過去我在NCC擔任我們的外部委員的時候"},{"start":5090.939,"end":5108.084,"text":"一定會拿著勞動部對電視台或者是拿到社政單位對於電視台的一個所謂的裁處那才可以去決定他要不要那個評鑑過不過關還有甚至才能夠拿到證照否則的話你沒有辦法知道"},{"start":5108.484,"end":5136.043,"text":"那如果让他顺利过关的话那表示你在支持这件事情说他环境议题做不好就他还是可以拿到奖项而且我也希望说你们能不能充分跟民间团体来宣导跟沟通好 谢谢委员我们政府部门我会来定一个指引希望政府部门来做那民间的话如果他因为他其实有些奖项他已经是一个商业行为了商业行为了那有些人是需要这个奖项的"},{"start":5136.403,"end":5155.356,"text":"所以我們會來嘗試來定一個指引希望他們有一個規範對台灣事實上是傷害的結果他還是得獎那部長有沒有得獎或許只是結果可是現在有些企業雖然有揭露碳排跟能源使用的效能跟原料來源"},{"start":5156.096,"end":5178.509,"text":"但把台灣本地跟它在海外的混在一起外界看不出來台灣這一塊到底減了多少還差多少所以民間的批評這部分批評這樣子你同意嗎我同意它其實可以分開的對 所以民間團體指出說有企業的區域數據是不清楚的所以建議未來要明確區分台灣跟海外的據點同時也要建議"},{"start":5179.269,"end":5196.484,"text":"要連續看三年它能源使用的趨勢而且也有不少企業揭露的到供應鏈表示不是做不到是標準要更明確所以不然就像我今年處理台資企業的印尼供應鏈污染權責根本就是無法釐清所以請問部長"},{"start":5197.285,"end":5211.839,"text":"是可否要求企業更明確的清楚的揭露它碳排台灣跟海外的它台灣跟海外的一個分裂而也要求三年的趨勢包括供應鏈再生能源的使用效率還有另外再加上供應鏈的環境"},{"start":5213.513,"end":5242.416,"text":"影響是什麼是否能夠先從我們的列管的事業或是國營事業開始要求好委員這個其實我有看過有一些很好的企業他都有把他的所有的廠的績效都把它弄出來那我也同意委員的一個看法我們會來努力因為這個有些的規範規定是經管會的那邊的要求各個企業的永續報告書那我們會來跟他們來做協商我們現在對碳中和已經有了那但是委員這個碳排介入的部分我們來努力我們來試看看"},{"start":5243.757,"end":5261.106,"text":"麻煩經濟部的那個祖密 莊祖密祖密好 接著要請教你就是我和環團跟印尼移工一起開了記者會印尼台資企業的員工親自到台灣來作證台灣企業跟它的供應鏈"},{"start":5262.347,"end":5281.783,"text":"侵害到勞動權益 造成環境污染那我就想問經濟部你們回覆說企業表示沒有這回事 是誤會公文也寫協助釐清 降低起見所以要再來問三件事第一 後續你到底有沒有實際去做查核你們說沒有 你們在台灣說沒有真的它國外沒有嘛"},{"start":5282.663,"end":5303.221,"text":"第二經濟部有沒有能力去稽查台資企業在海外的環境跟勞動權益狀況包括我們供應鏈的影響第三面對嚴重傷害的國家形象涉及到環境污染跟供應鏈的問題經濟部是不是我就想經濟部不會只像寫公文那樣說加強宣傳就好吧"},{"start":5304.525,"end":5323.015,"text":"是 謝委員的一個提醒因為我們主責的那個投資師今天沒有過來所以我會把委員的這個意見帶回去所以如果你今天沒辦法回答我在這邊要求經濟部一週內因為這個記者會開很久我們到至今都還是沒有給我們答覆一週內對於我上次記者會提出來的訴求"},{"start":5323.815,"end":5334.561,"text":"那回報進度包含切人權禁止調查的機制是什麼以及國家聯絡點的設置的一個進度是我們再提供再麻煩好謝謝那個環境部部長"},{"start":5342.948,"end":5363.19,"text":"上次我就要問了可是時間的關係今天我還是要問有關國際檢授公約談判結果部長在8月談判後的記者會做了非常多的承諾你說我們愛護地球媽媽的決心不會變政府會多管齊下結合源頭來減量環境再利用跟創新技術這你完全支持"},{"start":5363.911,"end":5383.265,"text":"那延續剛剛許燕池的一個應用我要請教兩個具體的問題第一個原生塑膠的一個減產環境部接下來有沒有規劃總量管制還是繼續交給市場轉型那循環署自己說說全球的原生"},{"start":5384.366,"end":5397.627,"text":"塑膠的供應過剩價格低廉讓再生料的那個競爭力不足歐盟已經有工廠倒閉台灣業者也面臨同樣壓力那如果企業還要在國內擴廠的話環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":5400.441,"end":5421.413,"text":"那各位報告那因為這個是我們關心是環境的問題就是因為塑膠公園他是塑膠的污染啊所以我們聚焦在這個塑膠污染的問題那基本上我們是希望說這個使用再生料的話可以來這個要求企業來使用那至於那個生產部門因為那個是其他那個經濟部門的一個議題所以我們沒有在這邊來探討"},{"start":5423.959,"end":5446.64,"text":"那第二就是一次性塑膠原本在2023年就要全面禁用四項產品確定延後部長也說這是六七年前定的目標如果需要滾動修正的話這個我理解但目標不能模糊所以請問部長新一輪的管制時程什麼時候公佈新版計畫有沒有在年然後年底快到了今年的績效是否滿意"},{"start":5447.401,"end":5473.875,"text":"是那各位報告那我們今年就是里程碑有一個草案然後讓大家來提供意見有個許願池那許願池也介紹很多這個民眾的意見那現在正在分析這個意見那我們預定是年底呢把這個我們的里程碑把它提出來那這邊會有依據我們國際趨勢最新的一個減納目標來回應這個民眾對檢授的一個訴求那你們新版計劃有在理了嗎是是已經有在理了是好"},{"start":5474.875,"end":5492.993,"text":"所以部長我非常支持你講的多管齊下可是我們要看到具體的進度表所以部長把很多事情扛在環境部上我非常肯定可是上述的議題請你們這邊給我一個完整的說明那我們當然也會跟部長站在一起來共同為環境來努力好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝林月琴委員發言請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":5505.113,"end":5523.585,"text":"謝謝主席我想請彭部長還有經濟部的莊主密請彭部長跟莊主密部長好上次跟您有一些交流後來因為現在國人真的很關心光電板的回收所以剛好今天經濟部也在對不起"},{"start":5526.138,"end":5552.78,"text":"幫我按下一張好 上次經濟部有回函給我們辦公室他提到說 風災以後大量的廢棄光電板處理這個追蹤序號已經是不可行因為怕有一些傳染病等等的並且環境部建議天災之下已改用重量為基礎來做回收以提升效率我在這邊只是想要追說後來您跟經濟部協商之後的結果如何"},{"start":5553.841,"end":5573.639,"text":"好 報告委員謝謝委員那時候提出的一個看法那我前幾天也特別請我同仁來然後看我們跟經濟部合作那個系統那的確33個案場裡面大概有16個案場他的資料已經上來了但是有幾個很大量的只有幾萬片的以上還沒有完全上傳因為那個是廠商他要把他每一個光電板的序號"},{"start":5574.58,"end":5593.439,"text":"Key in進去 那個其實很費時啦那我有跟他們講說可不可以P字檔一次進來那這個還要需要一點點作業時間那我們已經請這個同仁把這個光電板大概多少片他的去化到哪裡整個大量到哪裡會跟委員報告那其他有一些案例已經做完了我會再跟他們委員可以知道"},{"start":5595.302,"end":5614.123,"text":"這邊是您剛講的這傳統我們如果是一片光電板他的年限已到他在裝上去之前他要先上網登錄他的序號然後把它裝上去他要回收錢他在上網登錄一次他的序號再把它回收可是我有注意到最近的新聞不管是經濟部或是環境部都說"},{"start":5615.064,"end":5629.985,"text":"清運計畫回收計畫其實進度99%都已經完成了所以聽起來您剛講的這個大批量的序號要把它輸入是不是有可能已經不可行不會不會就是說整個的量"},{"start":5630.546,"end":5653.412,"text":"因為他每一片都有一個序號在上面然後但是他一個廠商一個去登錄一個登錄他要花時間他內部要先整理因為十幾萬片幾萬片啦齁啊其實目前呢這個他是屬於不是這種所謂的自然淘汰的是屬於突發狀況的那他其實也要進到這個系統去做一個申報所以我們還在等他但是我們委員你說的事情其實已經在進行當中了"},{"start":5653.792,"end":5681.826,"text":"我知道 但我們想知道的是你這個本來的流程是不是會要有另外一個流程是因應突然有大量的光電板需要回收對 因為過去從來沒有過這樣的經驗對 所以我的意思是說未來你會不會有一個新的流程其實經濟部我所知道經濟部那邊他針對這個光電板每一個序號的管理他們也有一些精進的計畫那我們也在等他們因為未來我希望可以更及時的在數字上面可以更借鑒的更順利"},{"start":5682.668,"end":5709.84,"text":"所以之後會有再有一份新的報告是嗎這可能要一點時間因為我知道他們他們的數位系統要全面的大更新因為現在其實key in的都是要手動的因為我我自己印象我我可以用P字檔直接上去一下就解決了可是他們一片一片的key那個要key要key很久啊這個幾萬片所以我們是希望他他們可以陸續的解決那這個呢其實就可以先到例如說我們這次處理這個廚藥的這個真主這個其實我們可不可以用數位化可以來處理"},{"start":5711.32,"end":5732.507,"text":"但是因為您實際去看的確是有光電板下面的板子是直接被攪碎或者是它被不合理的回收那它怎麼它可以去找這些批次是它已經找不回來的批次它可以逐漸的把它提上去但是並不能證明這一片的序號是它有回收到"},{"start":5733.187,"end":5754.429,"text":"基本上他的所有的過程一個量一個總量可以去做估算例如說一片是幾公斤那個都是固定的他們就可以去做推算大概多少片好的序號在的就會在所以的確會有一些他已經泡了水那個序號貼紙掉了沒有看到序號的會有的所以最後你還是會有一定有的只是你之後也會跟經濟部協調更改的流程"},{"start":5756.812,"end":5772.988,"text":"對 其實這個壞掉的部分是他們現在用推斷說大概多少片大概多少片他們會算出來然後序號大概多少到多少這個其實是有的好 那可以簡單的跟我們說那您未來進度什麼時候您跟經濟部可以正式的有這樣子的報告"},{"start":5773.188,"end":5793.686,"text":"我記得他們 我所知道他們明年的新系統會開始啟用那速度 因為他們其實他們我們的資料也是從他們那邊過來所以他們那邊我們現在只有一部分的資料例如說我們有幾百萬片他們應該有幾千萬片所以這個未來的進來的速度我希望可以這個即時的能夠接進來那目前還沒有做到"},{"start":5795.068,"end":5809.179,"text":"那今天很感謝昭緯排了這樣子的議程因為其實城市採礦是國際上現在有很多期刊跟文章都在討論的議題那本來認為您的書面報告比較精簡一點只有一頁那昨天在看的時候"},{"start":5810.78,"end":5837.777,"text":"覺得好像環境部對這個議題很陌生可是今天聽你的口頭報告有詳細的非常多那當然台灣比較可惜的是產業走得蠻前面的可是環境部還沒有辦法有大的戰略把大家一起整合在一起剛剛你有說你要很多的部門一起來協助並且去盤點我們稀有金屬現在國內的量能是多少那你可以大概跟我們講什麼時候可以完成嗎經濟部主秘也可以說"},{"start":5838.637,"end":5859.755,"text":"包委其实这个稀有贵金属是一个战略所以你可以看得到这阵子不管是美国跟日本签订一些稀土的协议其实都是属于一个高机敏性的有战略的物质我不方便在这个地方卸了我们所有的厂商我们台湾的优势的一个底但是问题是说我只是问你进度因为你说你现在开始在盘点"},{"start":5860.035,"end":5878.614,"text":"我们这个已经进行了好几个月了已经进行当中经济部也有我们现在会两边合在一起在推动这个事情那你们预计什么时候可以完成完我们全国的量能其实我们是看重说未来我们的战略的思考是什么例如说现在很多的国家国与国之间在处理这个事情"},{"start":5879.195,"end":5902.174,"text":"那我們怎麼去面對它所以我們是後面深層次的問題那現在有的部分的話我們是逐一逐一的去細談因為跟委員報告有些的這個戰略物資例如說我們的手機它進去回收有很多的東西它其實是去原廠的它不見得會跟我們台灣我們的政府講的所以我們一個一個要把這個所有盤點起來變成是一個很好的國家的隊伍這是我們希望的目標好"},{"start":5903.235,"end":5921.401,"text":"這個是原本我希望您在報告中有提到的因為我有去查了一些資料最近經濟部長有針對這個事件發言那你剛有講到中國在10月9號無預警的祭出這個稀土的管制所以堪稱是一個無差別的攻擊啟動了一個貿易戰那對台灣而言"},{"start":5921.901,"end":5940.091,"text":"台灣有無人機產業還有大量的半導體產業極強是一個大衝擊那就說如果未來在其他的國家你有用到中國的稀土這個產品有0.1%以上他在申請出口到比如說台灣錢就必須要跟中國商業部"},{"start":5941.031,"end":5961.525,"text":"獲得出口的許可證那你剛講到的城市採礦為什麼今天排這個題目就是因為它對於環境的危害也會稍微少一點比傳統的採礦它的碳排比較少還有也可以讓我們的這些廢棄物把它的資源提煉出來甚至變成更重要的戰略物質"},{"start":5962.466,"end":5990.223,"text":"那我這邊查到資訊是經濟部長希望2028年開始啟動喔這個可能跟其他國家比是有一點慢開始啟動輔導國內的廠商然後從廢棄的電器中回收再精煉稀土2031年希望可以滿足國內三分之一的需求這些我本來昨天是希望從你的報告中獲得那你現在可以口頭跟我們說你這個進程會不會想要跟經濟部討論再提前"},{"start":5991.189,"end":6004.169,"text":"這當然也會提前我們是希望可以更提前而且這是我們國家的重要的產業是不是請經濟部可以報告一下跟委員報告其實這部分經部現在其實已經委託像供應院這些研究機構來"},{"start":6006.132,"end":6027.555,"text":"提升國內在有關這個相關的一個技術的一個量能那我們明年就會開始啟動國內的產業投入相關的一個研發跟相關的一個產業的一個推動目標是2030年能夠滿足國內2030提前一年我們目標是2030年要滿足國內三分之一的供應量提早一年提早一年所以明年就會啟動"},{"start":6030.011,"end":6053.972,"text":"這可能環境部部長我們看了一些比如說右邊他是英國智庫對日本的分析報告然後左邊是Elemental Group處理廢棄物轉化成關鍵金屬的集團那當然他是在講日本為什麼他會以國家級的這樣子的層級開始都市採礦是因為源頭是因為他們在船在海上跟中國的漁船有一些糾紛"},{"start":6055.593,"end":6080.907,"text":"抓了這個船長後來中國緊急的暫停稀土的出口所以威脅到日本的汽車產業所以他們就開始把它變成一個大的戰略提高到整個國家有一個專責的機構來做這個好那他除了可以去挑戰中國在關鍵礦物生產的主導地位以外也可以擴張他跟其他國家合作比如說他有一個很重要的技術輸出"},{"start":6082.448,"end":6103.615,"text":"您剛講這麼多我也是想知道說您會不會考慮加快這個速度然後跟日本合作做這樣的技術輸出因為他們現在做得很好包委員這個都有在談這個屬於關鍵戰略我們都有在談那不方便在這個時候說因為這個是有戰略的那委員你提到這個其實台灣1950年60年早就有在做這個事了二人蜥"},{"start":6105.677,"end":6121.374,"text":"這個電子廢棄物就是處理這個東西但是它是污染我們環境的所以我們現在要的是屬於高科技的沒有污染的可以回收的更好更有價值的東西這是我們要的所以最後結論以下四點是我希望可以您跟經濟部看可不可以在"},{"start":6122.455,"end":6151.665,"text":"多久的時間內比如說一個月內提出相關的報告第一個就是把都市採礦明確的納入資源循環推動法草案中然後設定長期的指標還有部會分工因為昨天的書面並沒有寫得非常詳細有關於這個部分那第二個當然你已經講很多了早上口報你也說這個就是我們減少對外依賴那第三這是從日本來的想法因為他們有一個專責的單位叫做都市礦山再資源化中心"},{"start":6152.705,"end":6177.38,"text":"因為你有提到需要很多部門一起協作才有辦法達成那最後就是推動稀有金屬的回收基金你要不要簡短的回答一二的部分委員你的意見我們都有納入裡面那三四的話其實第一個是我是由我們資源循環署來主責那當然要跟經濟部一起合作那是不是有回收基金我們再來評估一下那我可以在一個月內跟您要到一個書面報告嗎可以嗎"},{"start":6178.817,"end":6200.129,"text":"好可以好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳金惠委員發言請邱振軍委員發言好主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":6203.863,"end":6224.23,"text":"邱委員好部長好部長我請問一下你在10月30號的時候說總統府氣候變遷對政對策委員會的會後記者會說最近綠能受到假訊息的干擾我想請問一下你講這句話的時候你覺得是哪個部分被干擾的"},{"start":6225.243,"end":6248.412,"text":"第一個是說例如說在光電板它我舉例我們在處理嘉義台南光電板受損毀的時候紅色的水然後鳥死亡鳥躲一下馬上倒閉就是受到假訊息的影響然後讓大家對光電板產生很大的恐慌第二個水質會有毒損害其實我們都驗了"},{"start":6248.832,"end":6277.851,"text":"那烏山頭水庫其實我們也都驗了而且我們是進行強力的我們要證實它是不是廢棄物可是有人卻把這樣的一個訊息拿來當過這個水質的檢驗相比這完全是不一樣的這個斷章取義所以這個就是一種錯誤的訊息希望部長你要講清楚不然我會以為說你說風電的低噪音是假的還是指光電板漂浮在水庫上面是假的還是這個颱風過後光電板被吹散了在雨溫上面的廢光電的這個災情都是假的"},{"start":6279.573,"end":6303.73,"text":"因為這種訊息現在你也知道您是部長您講的話非常重要所以我們希望說以後講這種話的時候把這個東西講清楚一點不然的話這個聯想空間非常大對不對不過委員其實這個綠能受到真的是一些錯誤訊息的衝擊這真的蠻大的也讓民眾有些恐慌這個我們也必須去正視的問題"},{"start":6305.24,"end":6317.597,"text":"對啊 所以我講真的當然我的意思是說你還是要把它講清楚好不好不然的話我們會搞不清楚到底你指的是哪一個剛剛我提到就是說現在光電風電問題都是你們這個"},{"start":6321.962,"end":6343.623,"text":"這個綠能政策下破壞環境的產物那每一個都是大家看到露眼看到的這些證據那如果真實在這個災情數據都沒有確實傳遞的時候這樣會造成這個地方的一個誤解那我再請問就是說你們要求對地方政府"},{"start":6344.604,"end":6370.781,"text":"要求一定的減碳的額度嘛那你回答記者的時候說對於縣市政府沒有達到標準未來計劃型補助款會在這個財政補助的時候做顯著的這個連結那我想請問一下部長這什麼意思這個是我們那個氣候變遷對策委員會裡面很多的委員提出來的啦就是說因為我們提出一個減碳的目標可是很多的縣市他並沒有不見得那麼的認真啦在推動的這事情那他們要"},{"start":6371.061,"end":6397.178,"text":"要求我們應該訂出一些規範讓地方然後那當然啦後來當天有記者問我說那那你要求他他不做怎麼辦那事實上全世界大概都是一樣用補助的方式因為未來我們減碳會用哪一條補助目前我們還不知道因為我們採化法過了之後一般性跟計劃性的用的方式我們還在學習當中那未來應該是計劃性的補助應該"},{"start":6402.643,"end":6416.342,"text":"會比較多嗎 我們希望是要這樣你有賞就要有罰嘛 是你如果只是處罰的話那做得好的當然你要給他鼓勵啊 對但是我還是很好奇就是說這個部分"},{"start":6418.056,"end":6441.744,"text":"你的標準在哪裡因為每個縣市的起跑點不一樣對 這個還沒有定報告委員 這還沒有定但是因為我們未來包含了例如說我們現在要推廚餘的生殖能的中心把它能源化或是肥料化其實那個東西都是需要政府跟地方一起合作的那個補助的比例就可以從這個地方去做連結這個是我們初步想到一個案例"},{"start":6442.839,"end":6468.356,"text":"你們現在只是想法而已還沒有具體的一個想法因為是當天有很多委員提出來說中央跟地方都要一起來做不是只有我們中央政府算出來一個數字而已那我這樣講就是說你現在只是一個想法那你沒有想過假如我們在2030年你的標準你的目標沒有達到我們環境部會被處分嗎"},{"start":6469.381,"end":6492.008,"text":"目前是不會那你自己沒有定一個罰則啊這個沒辦法定罰則你可以處罰地方怎麼不處罰自己不會處罰地方啦但是基本上如果沒有達標我相信社會的輿論國際的輿論都是非常大的我覺得還是對啊你這個相關部門還是要有一個這個機制吧對不對你對我想對上對下都要一樣啊"},{"start":6494.089,"end":6518.971,"text":"這個負責的單位應該也要有罰則這樣大家才會有動力謝謝委員我們現在大概都用鼓勵的啦像有些縣市做得好我們就會補助的更多這樣好那我再請問你馬頭山麗湖廢棄物這個棄置案場這個當時我們的委員要去進行這個水質採檢那農業部農田水利署農田水利管理組科長"},{"start":6519.651,"end":6547.896,"text":"那個李元玉說他接到你們公文就告訴你們進行採樣要環境部準備儀器你們有接到這個答覆嗎包委員上一次的10月23日是我們次長因為我受到那個處理這個非洲豬瘟的議題農業部部長親自答我們就來處理開會說我沒辦法去跟委員請假了還是你們兩個部會上溝通上是除了沒有沒有沒有委員因為那天的決議因為他們要採是對灌溉用水有影響所以那個是灌溉用水但是我請問部長"},{"start":6548.696,"end":6562.452,"text":"灌溉用水如果受到污染跟環境庇護有沒有關係那個其實灌溉用水的這個標準是農業部訂的所以農業部要去負責去採這個水質所以灌溉用水你們不管就對了對 我們是管這個引用水萬一污染咧"},{"start":6563.713,"end":6584.751,"text":"如果說有很明顯的問題他們就會來會同我們找到這個源頭我們還是會去處理的所以我們是配合他協同他來處理那因為那天前幾天他去的時候他那個農業部他特別有特別去說了那個地方的管轄是地方的農業局在管轄這個灌溉用水而且也報告委員環境部不管是不是"},{"start":6585.492,"end":6611.824,"text":"如果說被污染的話其實委員這個地方高雄市政府他們都已經進入這個裁罰還有他們調查的階段檢調都有在調查那有去採樣嗎基本上地方已經做過的事情其實我們只能遵照地方來進行那我們也他們其實都有照這個程序在往下走而且都有顯著的採檢這個工作因為這個爭議很大嘛如果說你看到如果說他你用肉眼就可以分辨他有沒有污染嗎"},{"start":6612.804,"end":6640.013,"text":"沒辦法就像說我們嘉義光電板說那個水是紅的後來我們查出來是脂腐酸一樣你是查出來還是檢驗出來檢驗出來的誰檢驗都會送到第三方的檢驗機構去做化學的檢驗是地方政府檢驗還是我們環境部檢驗這一次現在已經進到地方政府他去做檢驗了環境部都沒有去做這種事情目前因為這個案子是地方政府已經在處理的階段我們中央就不會去介入所以我覺得就是說"},{"start":6641.124,"end":6649.016,"text":"因為當天的委員我覺得你們兩個部會農業部他既然有回覆你們你們沒有回覆他說要叫他們自己代碼"},{"start":6650.084,"end":6672.608,"text":"保委員因為這個他是要這灘水這灘水呢這灘水不是灌溉用水不要管哪一灘水啦就是說為什麼移情美貸我現在在問這件事情為什麼農業部說回覆說要環境部帶那環境部說這是農業部的事那到底是誰的事沒有沒有委員他是需要去量那個湖裡面灌溉用水那個湖的水那農業部去看了拆開了之後所以農業部用看的"},{"start":6672.928,"end":6688.65,"text":"就知道他有沒有汙染不是那個是屬於那個高雄市政府他們的這個權責農業局的一個權責不是農業部的農水署的權責不是啊那對啊那回復的是農水署嘛不是嗎是農水署農水署他的權這不是他權責嗎"},{"start":6689.791,"end":6712.737,"text":"那個是地方的報委員例如說好有一個所以我們現在是這樣就今天這個地方發生的事情只要不是我們管轄的我們大家都知道了可是就是大家都不關我的事就對了報委員那個是地方已經這個馬頭山既然委員會要去了嘛我想說委員會既然大家去看了是不是我們環境部應該要帶領這個"},{"start":6716.358,"end":6735.788,"text":"帶頭的作用這個部分是誰要負責是不是環境部應該就是要指示他們哪個單位要去處理那個地方環保局已經全程在處理的我們無法去指揮說地方環保局你怎麼樣你做的對不對當天學術單位已經進行採樣跟保存所以你們現在決定如果驗出來有問題"},{"start":6737.614,"end":6756.217,"text":"你們會怎麼處理保護委員因為他拿的是手邊的一個保特瓶所以基本上那個保特瓶到底是不是乾淨污染的我不知道這個可以給我們僅供參考但是如果要科學驗證有問題那我們到時候再請高雄市環保局我不曉得他們有沒有全程攝影如果有全程攝影你也不能說那個是不乾淨的"},{"start":6756.497,"end":6783.857,"text":"報告委員因為整個檢測監測是有一定的一個程序標準作為程序的不是說我們隨便拿個杯子量就可以了當然還是它有的儀器檢測啊沒錯啊對啊就是它只有蒐集水嘛水質水質很容易現在不是要驗水質嗎不然驗什麼它是驗水質啊可是它拿的這個水質的這個不能隨便拿我們喝的一個杯子我們杯子裡面要非常乾淨要經過處理要有消毒這樣的啊"},{"start":6784.737,"end":6810.836,"text":"要經過採樣瓶要非常的乾淨不是說我隨便拿個我的好啦這樣如果這一次採到沒有不準的話你下次提供一個那個保特瓶給我乾淨的保特瓶給我我們一起去採檢這樣就有公信力不過也抱歉因為這個都是地方的事務啦你不可能地方一個廁所髒了就叫環境部部長去處理這個廁所啊那是地方的事務啦最後一個問題就是說我們國土署這個國土我們內政部國土署有過來嗎"},{"start":6816.034,"end":6817.976,"text":"請那個總工程師市長好這個國土監測系統裡面我拉了112年到現在數據這三年的異變點有46,032個那有21,490個違規點那2萬多個違規點裡面違規前三名的是哪些縣市你知道嗎"},{"start":6840.209,"end":6867.526,"text":"這個可能我們在聊我看你不知道我跟你講屏東3094件台南2716件高雄2184件剛好都是中央最呵護的民進黨執政的縣市那高雄不只違規是前三名在監察院去年在8月直接點名全國總共事件異變點面積高過一公頃而且超過通報年度10年又還沒有結"},{"start":6868.887,"end":6897.617,"text":"辦結案的這剛好滿足這三個條件的這個全責單位都是高雄市政府那這事件當中的其中一件是不是現在高雄的人造景觀美濃大峽谷這個會後我們再補給你是不 沒掌握還是不敢說那一塊6公頃我們有類入監測啦對啊 你知道嗎你們知道嗎有類入監測"},{"start":6899.229,"end":6926.278,"text":"監測不是監測你們不知道那監測來幹什麼這麼大的一個一個變異點他可以自動隱形嗎這我們都有通知地方政府你有通知嗎所以你們早就知道嗎但是這個大峽谷越變越大卻沒有任何作為那上面有交辦說你們不要管嗎沒有沒有交辦不會交辦這個啦因為這屬於地方自治可是你通知了然後也不管那那那這個是監測來是幹什麼"},{"start":6929.227,"end":6953.944,"text":"那我在問啦 這個三年多裡兩萬多件違規 開罰了幾件因為在中央目前這個沒有這是地方的權責嘛 對不對那你們不知道 可是監察院要你們儘速完成原理違規 半截獎勵機制以及長年未半截的相關配套罰則你們還在講地方權責那監察院還沒廢掉以前 你們應該要尊重一下吧"},{"start":6955.125,"end":6976.457,"text":"所以後續我們有一些這個最終去化的一些規劃方案那這個院裡面也在這個對啊你們不要只看嘛不要只看然後不管不要到時候國土署要改成這個國土看守署我們後續在這個廢青瓦裡面也有做一些相關的這個配合修訂一些法則進去的"},{"start":6979.521,"end":6989.956,"text":"市長請回 那我再請問部長那全國目前列管的非法棄置廢棄物的場址還有446處這裡面有沒有包含現在的高雄美濃大峽谷"},{"start":6992.256,"end":7020.269,"text":"有 應該是有啦那個包委員那個案子是你們都沒有作為嗎有有有 我們早就去這個案子是我們破獲的喔 委員這個是我們破獲的喔共同破獲的那現在已經進入到司法階段而且在調查這個整個肉粽整串的這個人都要不要抓到對啦 因為你們做了很多的那個什麼系統啊什麼導入科技啊希望你們查到了之後不要因為執政的縣市的顏色然後就會自動屏蔽啊"},{"start":7020.789,"end":7027.955,"text":"報告委員我對我的原則是不管藍綠白有犯罪的我沒有任何希望這樣子啦時間也到了謝謝謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員發言現在宣告待會蘇清泉委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘現在請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":7048.851,"end":7054.615,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長 王委員好部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲中央災害應變中心33次的會議紀錄"},{"start":7072.051,"end":7089.764,"text":"那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議 部長你有參加嗎沒有你沒有參加 環境部誰參加"},{"start":7093.666,"end":7098.031,"text":"沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官俊記主持農業部那次長你有參加嗎沒有"},{"start":7108.427,"end":7134.203,"text":"沒有好我要問的就是在這一場會議當中其實有一個很重要的防疫的決定喔就是他說請環境部環管署及農業部這個畜牧師針對200頭以上廚藝養豬場持續查核加強集合落實廚餘確實經高溫蒸煮"},{"start":7139.184,"end":7166.771,"text":"從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明"},{"start":7167.625,"end":7181.763,"text":"包委員這個查核是地方環保局要去查核那我們是負責稽查我們是稽查3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄"},{"start":7185.807,"end":7204.563,"text":"環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員 地方有參加嗎"},{"start":7206.089,"end":7229.517,"text":"報告委員 我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央災害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議記錄裡面"},{"start":7231.798,"end":7252.793,"text":"那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達然後督導然後真的有到場去看"},{"start":7253.493,"end":7270.385,"text":"有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄 集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢"},{"start":7272.592,"end":7288.521,"text":"來請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼環關署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題"},{"start":7290.05,"end":7316.743,"text":"來 包委員這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日尤其例如端午中秋之前這一個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這一個應該是在端午節之前開的那這一次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度我們要去加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有 當然有"},{"start":7318.504,"end":7333.416,"text":"就是即使你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給"},{"start":7334.957,"end":7361.994,"text":"這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的你的加強強化在哪裡這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒我們強化平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位"},{"start":7363.034,"end":7389.84,"text":"會只是形式的開玩而已嘛各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%"},{"start":7392.841,"end":7411.693,"text":"請說明 以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那一些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個 不是 他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強"},{"start":7414.434,"end":7433.721,"text":"你文字沒有看清楚嗎連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低只是副組長連署長自己都沒去副署長也沒有去有重視嗎人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有12職等的副署長"},{"start":7435.216,"end":7451.897,"text":"有12職等的副署長你剛剛是說副組長副署長副署長對對對那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義"},{"start":7453.398,"end":7477.974,"text":"會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會 有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些"},{"start":7483.301,"end":7486.79,"text":"廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增"},{"start":7490.444,"end":7519.984,"text":"之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的"},{"start":7520.684,"end":7542.371,"text":"我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走那怎麼會新增31間我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢"},{"start":7543.251,"end":7564.684,"text":"法律上面并没有禁止所以你的政策就不明确啊目前是没有完全禁止这样的一个部分你们也没有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不应该有新设啊那就是一个落日的概念啊让他慢慢就是有一些他就自动不来申请将来要有一个落日的这个定定的话那就会有这样的一个限制"},{"start":7564.684,"end":7577.031,"text":"那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段時間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的"},{"start":7594.5,"end":7620.615,"text":"那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎"},{"start":7621.195,"end":7638.286,"text":"所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧 模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看"},{"start":7639.547,"end":7662.877,"text":"現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場爭主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是我們一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間"},{"start":7664.485,"end":7692.796,"text":"跟燃料費跟溫度待它冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚餘煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等它冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃"},{"start":7694.497,"end":7706.424,"text":"我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說"},{"start":7715.54,"end":7735.948,"text":"根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是可以討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度"},{"start":7737.088,"end":7756.985,"text":"所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備 新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下"},{"start":7757.925,"end":7778.791,"text":"報告委員 這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備 新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢 是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線居合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去居合它當然居倒啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎"},{"start":7779.611,"end":7804.64,"text":"我們在督導 他們有在參加對啊 所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼 你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現 幾月份來 部長說 部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去 幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前"},{"start":7805.14,"end":7820.768,"text":"他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎"},{"start":7821.989,"end":7847.497,"text":"我沒有卸責我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任那就是想中央卸責嗎中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是報告委員我必須說實話其他家中部有很多其他家像彰化我們也同樣的幾家他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎"},{"start":7848.297,"end":7867.062,"text":"現在沒有了現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的100%了現在沒有啊現在沒有問題因為現在禁養了我們還是去機場所以按照你們的掛保這台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說100%珍珠嗎"},{"start":7868.741,"end":7893.945,"text":"現在沒有在爭主這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在爭主那未來還會爭主啊因為你們現在沒有進啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員 這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要爭主有三個條件我們環境部負責的是爭主必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎"},{"start":7894.585,"end":7921.698,"text":"即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對 這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的Model在這邊"},{"start":7923.318,"end":7936.844,"text":"這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼"},{"start":7939.885,"end":7964.273,"text":"你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的這個我們內部都已經在討論完成但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來我現在不能回答這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民 這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規 查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走"},{"start":7965.802,"end":7981.264,"text":"那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好啊那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃的期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了"},{"start":7982.185,"end":8011.722,"text":"但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布"},{"start":8012.242,"end":8034.805,"text":"這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我們不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的處理不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我們必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了"},{"start":8035.762,"end":8057.969,"text":"我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像 路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛"},{"start":8058.609,"end":8084.492,"text":"委員如果在政府機關做事我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走不是說我今天說喔這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘"},{"start":8086.213,"end":8104.371,"text":"我是支持 但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結就是你如果真的下定決心"},{"start":8104.972,"end":8130.282,"text":"你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合 以上謝謝謝謝王育民委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":8143.925,"end":8159.614,"text":"好謝謝主席我請彭部長有請彭部長還有嚴署長還有美農業部黃次長委員好部長辛苦了我"},{"start":8161.502,"end":8179.852,"text":"我們禮拜一去獅子鄉考察我們次長去動員了很多人包括內政部的還有公園院的還有大家都去要釐清水利署的也去來 放這個影片有聲音嗎"},{"start":8190.24,"end":8191.335,"text":"我們美濃有大峽谷"},{"start":8202.014,"end":8217.079,"text":"所以我們有環境部次長 我們獅子鄉鄉長還有吳立華的助理也都來了連盧憲一委員 大家都去你看到後邊 後邊季節無難 防我河川 季節無難 防我河川"},{"start":8225.723,"end":8252.761,"text":"下一張相片好 伯父你還要不要去開啦我們米農那裡有大峽谷我們這裡柴鴨鄉也有大峽谷這喔 在崎坡在峰港溪上面我們陳租賦租了30公頃結果在那裡開墾超過100公頃整個有什麼什麼的都在種西瓜 種瓜果類都在架賽"},{"start":8256.809,"end":8274.928,"text":"弄一弄就切一切可以炒就可以了就這樣弄成弧形洛山峰那麼大了他也是那麼多弧形隔壁這些原住民大家都愛愛叫一個人空間跟空間跟環連跟環連然後那一天真的是當然很多人去看"},{"start":8276.709,"end":8304.502,"text":"不定這是縣管河川還是主要河川我現在第一個問題是我們農業部你就在做有機的雞屎去藏在地上這麼大條你們那個有機肥你們又補出那麼多錢那為什麼他要用青的草雞屎地屎這樣弄這是什麼原因這是站地沒所謂管所以他們不能申請補助是不是 市長"},{"start":8306.258,"end":8331.713,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上那個生的這個積分是沒有辦法不是不可以當肥料的所以他如果是沒有那個的話是將違規使用的這樣違規再六年啊你如果不在炒啊你如果不在灌他他可以買有機的買啦他如果可以買 你想要不要買他或是他不要買這個是他的意願我在想我們沒有說不賣給誰有機肥料這樣的一個事情"},{"start":8332.535,"end":8354.129,"text":"客廳這個如果沒有收入管可以賣嗎他沒有收入管啊你說農地對...是不是這樣做不可以賣你們要購買有具肥料一定要有農地的證明嘛只要是合法使用的他都可以購買但是這一塊是不是"},{"start":8355.794,"end":8356.456,"text":"這個你不解決怎麼辦啦"},{"start":8366.485,"end":8389.455,"text":"那個跟委員報告如果他這個是合法成豬的這個部分的話那他就可以去購買這個我們肥料的這個補助那是有的但是是不是這個有合法成豬的這個部分容我們會後再去查一下好 你們要查清楚因為合法成豬可不可以用二三十公頃阿你二三十公頃就給他給他我們買嘛阿用那個雞腮這樣不夠多重"},{"start":8390.875,"end":8415.376,"text":"旁邊又去廚房 去工廠 去什麼的又自己去水路 農路 喔 真厲害原民會說 那不是他管的所以理事說 他只有管水而已這企部他沒有在管國土事務也沒有在管 沒人在管還要自己擔任一組的而已不然那是誰收錢的啦你們環境部都長痰痰耶律師長"},{"start":8417.638,"end":8435.753,"text":"是 跟委員報告他如果不是使用這個合法而污染的話他是有罰則的我們匯清法可以依39條然後以52條來罰 最高可以罰到300萬禮拜一我們去兩部遊覽車跟小車 夜遊車 差不多"},{"start":8442.455,"end":8458.105,"text":"六七十個人所以這事情不該怪不得了我們原民會 大家都三不關都沒有人 大家都上來上去剛才說美濃大峽谷的一模一樣所以美濃大峽谷 這是獅子鄉大峽谷這真的是很荒唐"},{"start":8460,"end":8489.059,"text":"這個要好好的來處理我們環境部該怎麼做要怎麼那天我們次長去也是很表達他反對的意見是蠻憤怒的莫定來好 這個我們會來研議來處理因為這個例如說我小時候在田邊也都是拿我們的這個水肥去澆灌很吵現在就不會做這種事情我覺得隨著時代的變遷這樣的這個污染環境的行為我們是不允許的所以我們會來"},{"start":8489.98,"end":8495.249,"text":"協助來處理對啦 我們小時候都打鼻涕在用在打鼻涕 但現在不行了現在你如果像我去看"},{"start":8499.597,"end":8522.97,"text":"堆肥出來的也沒什麼味道啊那個非常好 我記得農業部補助還蠻多錢的啊補助將近百分之八十啦所以你要提供這個 不可以再這樣補了啦那全台灣的大廈企業都在種西瓜你知道嗎西瓜種 大家都這樣補這樣就絕對不行好 那這個第一題 來 第二道題"},{"start":8525.14,"end":8539,"text":"廚餘喔 來 下一張這間的台中出事大家都要拿來拿去我了解起來 查起來這最重要的就是存了嘛"},{"start":8540.134,"end":8550.923,"text":"我們的衛工廠 衛海關入面的 大家都像現在那樣石頭那樣不轉工全部都要經過X光 全部都要查 沒什麼綠色 沒紅色通道都沒有 大家都幫我查 這是第一第二 海關入面的郵寄包裹 什麼大廈房 也查得很清楚我還要接過海關 跟我說你來 當教育你的東西來 給我罰啊不然怎麼辦 我說消費啊"},{"start":8565.796,"end":8582.723,"text":"因為我就跟他說同意銷毀這是什麼 你看這海上的輪船在走貨櫃輪在走 你看旁邊的都走走死人的都走走 這是你害人的剛才你說什麼你害人如果到處遇會發三千萬你害就講害了 你是怎麼搞的 阿澤說 親仔說說的"},{"start":8588.846,"end":8602.712,"text":"我們的領海12海浬 我們的領海5海浬在裡面還是你管轄你在公海上誰領你啊所以你看 這個跟著洋流走船也是跟著洋流走 自己也在丟就因為丟丟我剛剛要進來之前我還問我們東港的那些遠洋漁船"},{"start":8609.255,"end":8638.3,"text":"我說你出去都半年、一年、兩年請問你的東西怎麼做人家是有對策的第一個是這種大型的商船它上面有小型的焚化爐然後那些塑膠類的能夠焚化就焚化在海裡不可以灌然後廚藝的話他們用絞碎機我有問過部長絞碎機絞一絞弄在海裡可以嗎大家也這樣做"},{"start":8640.336,"end":8663.031,"text":"真的要這樣做啊 要說啊 既然既然我們既然哪有可能我們這間館哪有什麼風化爐 繳稅就不錯了所以都這樣拚 你看到這就是怕死人然後聯合國有組那個船在撈那些東西好 我們這次的廚餘 我看 破口就是從"},{"start":8664.744,"end":8673.831,"text":"台中港上面是不是有那些商船上面的廚藝他常常搶下來這一家他搶下來之後他又搬給別人搬給別人 別人有住他沒有住什麼什麼家屬四五個月兩天家屬還沒回來是不是這樣 不一定所以他的廚藝在那邊整個都搬了下來還沒來修理就來噴啦啦的就跟他打架就出事了"},{"start":8695.208,"end":8709.874,"text":"我常常想我們從海關進來有的人從新加坡帶那個熟肉回來也不能帶回來我們海關我們人在走的我們包裹進來的那麼的嚴格"},{"start":8711.155,"end":8717.957,"text":"那這個破口就這麼簡單的一個破口就是從商船、漁船上面下來的這個大家都要搜一搜台中市政府環保局、農業局都失職然後他這邊推給中央"},{"start":8733.301,"end":8752.169,"text":"邊境管理出問題博弈這到底是怎樣這要怎麼圍堵要怎麼補救不要讓我塞進去我塞進去很可惡跟委員報告如果是商船的話因為在商船他就有管制區所以基本上商船的這個上面的垃圾處理他現在是目前是禁止的禁止"},{"start":8753.289,"end":8775.448,"text":"下地的啦那因為漁船的話如果是我們第一來我們沒有允許外國籍的漁船到我們境內來那所以如果是我們的漁船的話我們是從我們的國內出去到外海作業然後回來那這個中間是沒有跟其他有接觸的所以基本上你可以把它視為是在這個本島裡面的一個封閉的一個環境那所以基本上我覺得在這個"},{"start":8776.329,"end":8801.075,"text":"境外進來的這個部分在這個國際港口 商港包括這個商船還有這個航空器的這個部分我們應該要落實來管合這個要落實管理嘛因為船家店落的廚餘一些生食還是航空器落的你們就把它消費就好了嘛那也叫做廚餘啊 那很恐怖的嘛那個部分不會當廚餘"},{"start":8802.938,"end":8817.954,"text":"不會當廚餘的嘛那個航空器跟那個商船的東西是一定淨焚化的一定是特定的這個有簽約的廠商然後密閉然後淨焚化的那是你講的理想啦我世界上怎麼會這樣做不然怎麼會出事 怎麼會破口"},{"start":8819.648,"end":8835.558,"text":"這次的病毒一定是為了救國籍罷了嘛在國籍罷了 在台中罷了就是為了破口罷了事實就是這樣嘛 對不對所以如何來防堵 確實落實那些東西一進來 現在說的不錯你就裝潑 日白都裝乾 焚化"},{"start":8840.902,"end":8862.159,"text":"不要再讓它廚餘 你說要蒸煮 上面的白說了嘛蒸煮就是從它來蒸煮 你說要新的設備 好的設備 健康這才是好事 要不然你就整個都做堆肥嘛 整個都做堆肥不然就 粉碗是比較沒菜啦 那都是有幾乎熱量 能量轉換"},{"start":8864.08,"end":8883.692,"text":"讓地下車是最好 最簡單 肉圓肉圓所以你如果要讓它做堆肥你就要堆肥廠 要嫌惡設施做得好 這樣而已嘛保證 跟農業部兩個要好好管理啦不然這樣不是辦法啦好 主席 我們會來再檢討一下先問一題 風力發電那天 禮拜一要講到風力發電有突然嗎"},{"start":8896.588,"end":8914.735,"text":"這個反黑箱 這個絕對不行喔部長這一桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌�桌桌桌桌桌桌�"},{"start":8925.939,"end":8955.037,"text":"最後一句話跟大家報告我們當醫生的那個20到200赫茲那個是對我們生理很大影響 用腦部所以那種低頻噪音那個雞也不會生兩隻那個人也不會生一隻我們都不認證了你知道嗎很恐怖的事情所以人都在放全世界都在放棄風力發電尤其人口稠密的地方我們台灣還引進還講得理直氣壯這是 真的是很差勁啦以上好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8957.718,"end":8959.473,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員發言 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9570.454,"end":9589.908,"text":"來現在繼續開會請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席也謝謝趙偉安排今天這麼重要的主題來做討論請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":9594.978,"end":9613.226,"text":"王委員好 部長好今天就針對我們所制定的主題有關於這個資源再利用的部分來跟部長做討論如何能夠走出這個線性的困局還有在弱勢農業循環經濟的部分包括強化台灣的這個土壤韌性我們共同來討論一下"},{"start":9614.546,"end":9639.861,"text":"那針對於這個資源循環的雙法早上部長也說明了非常的清楚很快的就會在這個立法院討論以後就會送到立法院這邊行政院先討論以後送到立法院這邊來做後續的處理那目前的這個推動進度還有在處理如果通過以後在資源在利用的效率上面"},{"start":9640.661,"end":9658.998,"text":"有沒有個明確的指標可以來讓我們處理的部分可不可以也請部長或者是也請署長一起來說明一下那跟我們報告我們現在指標是用循環利用率跟資源生產力還有人均物質消費量來當作一個我們要推動循環的一個指標那原則上主要還是用循環利用率為主"},{"start":9660.51,"end":9682.586,"text":"所以就是希望能夠再利用為做一個最重要的訴求我們來看一下一個所謂資源再利用如何能夠走出線性經濟困局這個部分其實2025年的循環落差報告就告訴我們說全球經濟在利用的資源比例其實是在下降"},{"start":9683.346,"end":9705.564,"text":"所謂下降的原因就是在全球每一年會使用到1060億噸這麼多的原料物裡面僅有6.9%會被再回收再利用這個比例真的非常低甚至會相較於2015年還下降了2.2個百分點所以線性經濟一直是我們走不出的困境"},{"start":9706.324,"end":9722.841,"text":"我相信台灣面對這個困境部長跟部裡面同仁一直很努力的希望能夠有更好的機會把這個資源再回收再利用所以在這個相關的法案資源回收再利用法裡面目前就增列了第11條"},{"start":9724.202,"end":9747.048,"text":"透過第11條希望能夠讓這個資源循環事務的推動有更整體性的上位的法來做指導的方針那這個第11條裡面也規定也要求主管機關要會同其他的機關共同報請這個行政院核定以後來執行一個叫做國家整體資源循環計畫"},{"start":9749.088,"end":9766.713,"text":"這個計畫裡面預計每五年要檢討一次而且每年要撰寫相關的報告推動的成果讓對外界公開所以這個看起來是一個很重要的一個新政的立法而且有很完整的相關的要求包括這個循環計畫"},{"start":9767.893,"end":9777.85,"text":"那這個循環計畫到目前為止我們當然希望能夠有好的這個想像跟藍圖那這個目前可不可以說明相關的規劃嗎 署長"},{"start":9781.809,"end":9805.895,"text":"那我們是在就是十月份我們有提出了一個循環經濟路徑圖的草案那這個草案提出來之後呢會利用在明年一年的時間徵求各界的意見那把這個包括我們各個產業還有我們一些物料的一個意見那都可以收集進來那到這個2050年我們這個中間要怎麼樣來進行我們的循環經濟的一個進展那會在這個路徑圖來提出來"},{"start":9807.04,"end":9822.432,"text":"是 所以在最近有開了一個2025年的亞太循環經濟論壇記者典那相關的這個會議我想部長當然總統也在指示說未來我們希望能夠幫助下一代有更永續的環境"},{"start":9823.001,"end":9848.039,"text":"讓我們的下一代可以順利的成長那這個孩子的期待我們必須要共同來承擔所以特別剛剛講了署長所提到這個循環經濟路徑圖這樣的草案那這個是未來國家的核心目標那在處理這個核心目標的時候目前相關可以讓民眾或者是全民可以了解的部分可不可以請部長稍微說明一下"},{"start":9848.981,"end":9861.831,"text":"報告委員 這個其實是因為我們對於這個減碳的路徑 2050年淨領是確定的而且拉到2035年但是循環經濟目前是沒有所以我們其實也看到各個國家都用這樣的一個方式來比較"},{"start":9864.053,"end":9878.008,"text":"長期的這個政策可以更清楚所以現在我們是提出一個草案如剛剛我們的署長說的例如說我們的循環率等等的指標我們把它直接放進去然後我們現在算是一個公聽那個公聽甚至這次我們主動的邀請國際的專家都來給我們意見"},{"start":9879.81,"end":9894.603,"text":"所以現在有得到七十幾個意見那我們預計的明年一步一步的就會把這個細項拿出來讓大家討論我們希望明年年底可以一個這個其實是2050年 這很長但是我們現在不做的話這個目標就會比較不明確我們是希望趕快來定案"},{"start":9895.183,"end":9919.277,"text":"是當然在這個過程基礎建設的處理是非常重要是2050年好像很長其實很快也就會到了那我們期待台灣可以在這方面具有一個領導或者是能夠讓世界作為參考一個重要的過程好謝謝署長這邊的說明也謝謝部長針對這個題目所提供的一些說明再過來就是有關於這個貴金屬精煉這個也是"},{"start":9922.078,"end":9949.307,"text":"我們重要的題目主題之一就是如何能夠都市採礦那這邊有一份中濟社的報告的書我想部長應該非常熟悉因為這一本書其實提供針對於面對國際這些礦物關鍵性的礦物資源的出口管制的因應措施很感謝中濟社潘董事長他們真的非常用心"},{"start":9950.467,"end":9974.956,"text":"會定期根據需要來把主題做了討論以後成為一本書可以讓外界做參考那這個裡面其實今天早上部長都講得非常的清楚那比較需要大家要注意的就是事實上要體驗這些貴金屬有它一定的社會成本不管是對環境的衝擊也好或者是對這些從業同仁"},{"start":9976.917,"end":9999.353,"text":"在健康的這個過程當中如何做好完整的保護這個都需要有很好的配套措施當然我們很希望把這些重要的金屬透過好的方式能夠從製或者是在台灣有充分的利用那這個外部成本相對也是向部長所提到的其實是大家要共同關心的部分"},{"start":9999.833,"end":10024.54,"text":"所以期待我們在回收過程或者是對於環境衛生的部分也希望共同的來注意來讓在這個過程裡面的環境衛生的保護也希望勞動部也能夠共同來把關謝謝委員的建議我們目前研究其實還沒有勞動部的角色但是委員提到這個建議蠻好的我們會把它列入考慮"},{"start":10025.493,"end":10045.106,"text":"謝謝 列入 又邀請他們來參加再麻煩部長也麻煩這個勞動部因為對勞工來講他這個真的在這個職業安全上面是有他的要顧慮的地方下一個部分我們要麻煩農業部防次長也一起來討論一下有關落實農業循環經濟強化台灣土壤韌性的部分"},{"start":10045.606,"end":10072.146,"text":"我想大家對這部錄影片紀錄片應該還是有深刻就是種土我本身是一個農家子弟所以對種土真的感受非常深刻那也很謝謝我們在做視頻營會的時候有卓院長還有陳俊俊部長我想次長還有當然彭部長也都有在現場去了解這個種土對於臺灣造成的這種"},{"start":10073.587,"end":10098.33,"text":"希望能夠讓台灣有健康國土才能夠打造健康台灣這樣的願景之下大家共同來努力那在這個紀錄片裡面我們看到就是我們這阿仁啊 這個男主角他每天要面對這麼多這麼多的不管是廚餘還是在處理這個食物之前所遺留下來的東西如何能夠讓它變成一個有機"},{"start":10099.311,"end":10117.29,"text":"而且是對於土壤有幫助的除了是希望撕毀作為作物以外呢是要改善土壤相信大家的感受都非常非常的深刻那回歸到今天的我們的主題就是如何能夠讓這些廚餘變成是好的"},{"start":10118.371,"end":10137.568,"text":"有機耕作的一部分那我們也看到有機耕作的面積在台灣是越來越成長這個是大家也認識到對環境的保護是有這方面的需要那在這個過程裡面其實我們也看到廚餘變成一個有機肥料過去七年的這個統計裡面107到109這個堆肥的使用養豬"},{"start":10143.573,"end":10168.994,"text":"的部分是逐年的下降對回的是逐漸的上升可是到了110年以後反而這是趨勢是反過來的那這個反過來當然有可能有一些原因那這個原因如何去做有效的政策上的調控如何讓這些家戶的廚餘能夠在回復到之前我們希望能夠更有效的運用"},{"start":10169.574,"end":10190.77,"text":"那除了這個家戶的廚餘以外事實上還有包括事業廚餘事業廚餘這個飼料化飼料化的部分就更多了到底是我們在變成這個飼料化跟肥料化當中成本的差異到底是不是會造成大家會往這個飼料化的部分"},{"start":10192.532,"end":10209.088,"text":"去做這方面的改變或者是有什麼其他的因素讓我們無法讓這樣的肥料化可以更有效的來運用這些廚餘不知道目前有沒有相關的資料可以給大家做了解"},{"start":10210.158,"end":10225.049,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上有關於這個土壤這個部分確實是我們農業最重要的根本那所以我們一直在做這個就有機的循環還有堆肥的這個利用的這方面那一直也是我們本部裡面的施政的一個重點"},{"start":10225.629,"end":10250.789,"text":"那但是剛剛就陳儒委員所說的在這個整個廚餘在飼料化或者是肥料化裡面他因為所投入的成本不同的這個關係那會造成後端的利用者的這個意願上面的這個問題那所以但是我們覺得這個就以廚餘的這個方向去像剛才以廚餘為主這樣一個方向以本部的立場來說的話我們是希望慢慢的透過這個政策的引導讓他走向這個"},{"start":10252.55,"end":10273.758,"text":"慢慢的減少所以事實上我們也看到事實上是往這個方向在走但是在於有機肥料的堆積方面我們本部的這個部分目前也正在規劃成立一個有機的這樣一個部門專責來處理相關的這樣一個議題我覺得這個方向是跟委員的期待是一致的"},{"start":10274.318,"end":10298.421,"text":"好啊因為包括像飼料化或肥料化的成本分析針對於政策上面如何引導應該是可以讓大家共同努力朝著我們期待的方向來執行好謝謝次長這邊的說明不過下一個問題就是有關於這個我們也知道在耕種的過程裡面很多東西都會使用到塑膠布"},{"start":10299.623,"end":10318.476,"text":"塑膠布其實造成一個環境污染是很明確的因為我們也了解塑膠本身是如果不能分解的話對環境的污染非常的影響那現在有大家都很努力的在用一些有機濃膜那目前的推動狀況是不是也請次長跟我們做一個報告"},{"start":10321.109,"end":10337.006,"text":"因為其實這些農模真的是CP值又高又能夠減少農民發揮又能減碳因為過去的這種黑塑膠布的這個農模的那個部分一來我們不希望它造成環境上的污染所以我們在農模的去化上面也會花費很多的這個成本"},{"start":10337.426,"end":10356.105,"text":"那所以目前我們有透過這個在中華紫江還有振隆他們已經有申請這個認證的這個部分可以變成這個我們有機的這樣的一個材質然後來做這樣的一個部分那我們後續也會利用政策上面的力量逐步來推廣這個有機濃膜這樣的一個使用"},{"start":10356.772,"end":10374.475,"text":"是 如果能夠有更多的百分比來讓這個有機農模可以好好的運用的話相信對土壤造成的這個不友善的這種部分呢可以得到很大的改善我相信對農業部來講這個 對不起對環境部來講這個壓力也會少很多"},{"start":10375.175,"end":10394.648,"text":"因為我最近有看到一些年輕朋友或是研究團隊我都有接觸到他們其實他們的創新是蠻不錯的那我們會有一些策略來協助他們能夠在市場上能夠佔有一定的一個地位好最後一個就是看起來很小很小的東西可是其實我們"},{"start":10395.428,"end":10420.931,"text":"也蠻擔心的因為目前包括這個在堆肥廠裡面水果這個蔬菜貼紙是前三大污染源之一看起來一點都不起眼可是造成的影響其實是非常非常的大那尤其根據歐盟包裝跟這個包裝廢棄物的規範的新法規未來像這些水果跟書籤的標籤都會被要求具備可堆肥性"},{"start":10421.952,"end":10435.432,"text":"就是說它必須要是Biodegradable就是需要是可被分解的那目前到底我們不管是環境部或農業部有沒有共同來把這些部分做要求"},{"start":10436.994,"end":10460.442,"text":"這個跟委員這個部分就讓我們跟這個環境部這邊來稍微研究一下那因為基本上因為我們有時候是希望說這個產品的來源標示是要清楚那到底是哪裡但是基本上如果不貼的這個部分會不會對於這個消費者的這個來源的這個標示這個部分可能我們還在跟環境部再做一下洽商"},{"start":10460.936,"end":10487.519,"text":"他需要貼可是他需要是可以被分審的這個我們來努力啦因為我們兩個算是法令規還有制度上要重新再設計我們會來演繹是是是是很麻煩這個兩個部會持續的在努力所以最後就是有關落實農業循環經濟強化臺灣土壤韌性就有三大包括廚餘肥料化強化這個有跟強化土地富裕更做到消費政策都能要確實減碩"},{"start":10488.76,"end":10499.303,"text":"是不是先兩個部會能夠討論以後給我們一份的報告報告給這個委員會給我們辦公室一個月可以嗎 一個月可以謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":10518.897,"end":10523.024,"text":"謝謝昭緯 是不是請我們這個彭部長有請彭部長委員好"},{"start":10527.839,"end":10549.053,"text":"部長 我現在就較於台灣資源資收關懷計畫的問題就是說台灣的資源回收體系長期其實一直仰賴一群在角落默默勞動的個體回收業者我們都叫他們叫拾荒者 這樣子來講好了"},{"start":10550.154,"end":10571.696,"text":"那依據環境部的統計2023年列冊的拾荒者它的回收量高達了64.7萬噸佔全台灣全體回收量9%這個貢獻度就跟全台灣所有的清潔隊的回收量10%大概是不相上下"},{"start":10572.536,"end":10598.086,"text":"換句話說 這個還只是列冊的拾荒者合理的推估每一個個體的回收做回收的這些個人他實質的回收應該遠遠超過只有列冊的9%所以對資源回收的體系的貢獻度非常非常的大他的真實貢獻事實上是嚴重低估的"},{"start":10599.298,"end":10614.795,"text":"那為了推動淨零轉型國發會公告的資源循環零廢棄的關鍵戰略的行動計畫中資收個體戶就是實況者被明確的列入公正轉型對象主要也是唯一的策略就是要推動"},{"start":10615.416,"end":10631.759,"text":"滋收關懷計劃而你們在108年就推動了滋收關懷計劃你們其實不是要幫助死亡者你們是要提高回收成效不裝的廢棄物如廢玻璃廢紙容器廢電子用品等等"},{"start":10632.72,"end":10655.495,"text":"它的回收率那你們是透過了高於市價的收購補助鼓勵這一些個體戶實荒者去收集這些低價的回收物然後去彌補這個市場機制不足的地方那我們這樣要來檢視就是說你這個計畫到底有沒有達成原本預期的政策目標"},{"start":10657.748,"end":10676.893,"text":"那你們的個體戶將指定你們政策要說這些死亡者必須把這個指定的低價回收物然後送到指定的站點然後可以獲得高於市場行情的補助金譬如說廢紙容器曾經高達1公斤補助18元當時的市價是1.4元"},{"start":10681.494,"end":10699.484,"text":"為了控制預算你們還是有設限每個人最高上限只能夠我就補助你到5000元所以這樣子113年你們這個計劃參與者平均每人每月平均補助金額是4253元看起來成效好像很好"},{"start":10699.864,"end":10721.754,"text":"平均每個人都達到4200多元了但是實際上能夠領到資收關懷計畫補助的人其實是少之又少我現在第一個問題就是事實上你的計畫的覆蓋率其實是相當相當的低依據民間的一個團體組織叫做五角盤回收平權協會五角盤"},{"start":10723.175,"end":10735.524,"text":"在2024年台灣實荒者調查報告和公正轉型政策建議書裡面指出所有的這個實荒者的樣本高達八成83.8%的人從來沒有聽說過這個計畫那事實上他們調查對象裡面只有2%的人有實際獲得補助"},{"start":10745.792,"end":10772.363,"text":"那在這種狀況這是不是真實呢因為你們的官方也有委外研究報告你們委外研究報告裡面也顯示在官方掌握的沒有列冊的群體中有78.55%的人根本不知道這是啥計畫根本不知道 連知道都不知道在你們列冊的人當中也只有四成的人參與過這個計畫"},{"start":10776.075,"end":10790.322,"text":"那在根據五角盤的回收評選協會的調查那在問到這個問題的時候所有被調查人員都會問這個調查人員說這個計畫這麼好我要去哪裡申請可以打哪支電話"},{"start":10791.643,"end":10816.141,"text":"換句話說 資收關懷計劃基本上是對一個目標群體八成來講大家都不知道隱形的計劃所以看得出來環境部對這個計劃的宣傳不足設限過高以至於回收第一線的這些人難以獲得任何的協助 連資訊都沒有"},{"start":10817.7,"end":10826.237,"text":"第二个问题我先讲完好了这个补助的机制设计跟拾荒者的需求严重脱节"},{"start":10827.924,"end":10851.236,"text":"这个计划的补助机制设计是说我们发放补助款的方式跟时程是要按月结算可是你知道多少的拾黄泽你叫他累计一个月送到指定的站体然后要换取点数重量兑换的补助金然后一个月以后才要汇到他银行的户头"},{"start":10852.236,"end":10877.963,"text":"可是多數的拾荒者他是每天要賺這個錢來吃飯的你叫他等一個月他等於沒飯吃所以五角辦秘書協會的秘書長廖鴻義他指出很多拾荒者急著每天的現金才有辦法吃飽飯聽到月結要匯入戶頭大家就怕死了 大家打退堂鼓"},{"start":10878.743,"end":10897.225,"text":"所以有受訪的拾荒者直言在這種狀況還提供身份證還提供戶頭大家就收回去了所以在你們自己官方的報告裡面也明確的指出資收個體業者的收入就拾荒者收入上大多介於五千元以下"},{"start":10898.146,"end":10911.149,"text":"不是講補助喔就普通每一個在拾荒的人這些人平均每個月就大概5000元以下了這跟民間的數據76%的月收入不足6000元是一致的"},{"start":10912.452,"end":10938.929,"text":"一个月总收入三五千元不足六千元的人每天的生活费就只有100到166元你叫他们等30天去月结这不是不便这是不可能不可能没饭吃过日子所以你发放的模式不符合拾荒者的生计实况然后你每天没有现金流他就等于不用吃饭了"},{"start":10939.269,"end":10958.23,"text":"所以它是難以承受你們計畫的這一些設計所以在這種狀況裡面地方政府在執行資收關懷計畫的時候還有設限耶不是說你要去做就做地方政府還設限在申請資格裡面額外限制了"},{"start":10959.912,"end":10984.41,"text":"限縮了受惠的範圍大部分的環保局在你們說一年編列1.4億然後你們預算執行率58%的原因就是地方環保局說你要來領取這個補助的人你要設定低收入戶中低收入戶或是領取老人津貼的人才可以有這種補助的資格換句話說"},{"start":10987.512,"end":10994.881,"text":"要符合特定社會福利身份資格的實荒者才能夠被允許參與這個計畫可是事實上你們沒有這個設限可是地方政府你給他的錢這麼少大家都來他要怎麼分配"},{"start":11002.669,"end":11031.362,"text":"這不是地方政府的錯因為錢太少所以大家都來他沒得分配只好在設限所以事實上各地都傾向將社福資格作為門檻在這種狀況裡面所有的調查當中只有24.9%的拾荒者具有這種身份所以在這種狀況裡面真正能夠領到資收關懷補助的就是這麼少數以新北市為例"},{"start":11032.502,"end":11055.487,"text":"這麼多人在從事拾荒截至到2025年的4月幾個人領到你們計畫的補助你知道嗎新北市人口超過400萬拾荒者我不曉得有多少人但是你猜猜看有多少人參與了你們資收關懷計畫有多少人領了這個補助你知道嗎"},{"start":11059.144,"end":11080.922,"text":"我們手上沒有資料 不好意思好 我告訴你 56個 56個全台各地的地方都一樣啦全國有7500個列冊可是你知道真正從事石荒沒有列冊的我想不是一倍兩倍啊 數倍於此啦所以參與關懷計畫的全國總人數才2700個"},{"start":11086.085,"end":11110.11,"text":"這個跟整體在做回收實荒的人的落差太大所以看得出來你們的政策誘因不足推動力道不足然後事實上可能可行性也有問題你們的預算也有問題現在我們要問的是你到底是要來解決實荒者的問題還是你要是要提高這一些市場裡面冷門的回收"},{"start":11112.272,"end":11119.902,"text":"廢棄物回收的問題你們難道不想提高這些回收率嗎如果你想提高這會是一個方法嗎"},{"start":11121.069,"end":11141.337,"text":"好 報告委員第一個我非常肯定就是說這個資收者他幫我們做在社會上做的事情所以其實我去年也有去看過也去了解過他應該是主力對這個是我們很重要的一環所以我們今年在我們的回收基金的委員會裡面我們就很主動的邀請五角辦能夠變成我們的委員職"},{"start":11144.318,"end":11165.714,"text":"雖然你們編列多少預算是重點嘛除了這個計畫以外還有沒有別的你到底是要照顧死亡者還是要提高回收率這是兩件事這兩個同時可以一起但這也是兩件事也是一件事所以我們現在他開始進到我們這個體系之後幫這個接收者的這個發聲的管道或是"},{"start":11166.494,"end":11189.103,"text":"我們的這個政策就可以做顯著的修正所以我們正在進行當中那第二個委員提到的各縣市跟我們的關係因為各縣市有些的縣市它清潔隊是不大喜歡資收者甚至有會被檢舉的所以我們也不是啦這個跟我談的我在談這個計畫你要怎麼提高這一種冷門的沒有人要收的廢棄物的回收率嗎"},{"start":11190.143,"end":11211.383,"text":"對不對然後我現在講就是說你知道在這個覆蓋率這麼低實荒者的生活困境非常的嚴重而且回收市場的價格持續低迷甚至這個下滑有多達75%的實荒者都普遍認為回收的價格太低了收入太微薄了減了一整天的回收物甚至換不到100元"},{"start":11213.425,"end":11231.941,"text":"所以廢紙板1公斤1.8元 寶特瓶1公斤2元這種價格 死亡者一天辛勞工作十幾個小時可能才100元減紙減三天 也有人減不到50塊所以寫五角半他們也有數據76.8%的收入 死亡者收入不到6000"},{"start":11238.607,"end":11254.521,"text":"但是將近一半48.3%的人他的收入不足3000所以他們往往還要加著老人年金低收補助打零工來勉強維持生活但是我要再講這一些個別的"},{"start":11255.382,"end":11284.341,"text":"拾荒者對資源回收體系的隱形貢獻我們要請大家看清楚他沒有在現行補填制度當中得到應有的反應對於減食回收體系其實他們在回收的時候 他們進行了非常細緻的分工比如說他們要繳紙類 他要分白紙 牛皮紙 豹紙 廢紙 雜紙提高回收物的純度和價值比如說他們會把鋁罐壓扁 把寶特瓶壓扁"},{"start":11286.122,"end":11309.773,"text":"節省體積以便於後續的處理所以他們在勞動上大概的彌補了這個機械分類的不足降低了後端處理的成本而且有效的提高了資源的再利用但是作為循環經濟幕後的英雄這一群第一線的工作者長期以來沒有獲得合理的報酬我現在要講了環境部"},{"start":11311.331,"end":11329.972,"text":"向生產者收取的回收清除處理費所得的款項幾乎幾乎全部都用在補貼上游大型回收和處理廠而不是基層實況者當國際原物料供需失衡導致回收價格波動的時候"},{"start":11331.113,"end":11359.058,"text":"上游的業者因為有基金的補貼得以部分緩衝但是價格跌勢最終都是直接轉嫁風險其實是讓最下游的第一線的個別的拾荒者去承擔換言之有利潤的時候被上游的處理廠商拿走了而在末端的人他還要去承擔風險而且價格往往是砍到底砍到建股"},{"start":11359.918,"end":11383.072,"text":"他這麼廉價的在做回收所以這裡面有沒有結構上我們對於回收基金存在著結構上的不公平這種結構性的利益分配的不公平導致死亡者在回收體系做了最大量最辛苦的工作分不到應有的合理的報酬這有沒有要檢討"},{"start":11384.033,"end":11408.629,"text":"有報告委員那個五角辦他現在我們邀請到我們基金的委員那我希望這樣可以結構性的我們公司協力一起把這個我們本來是寄望於兩法合一然後我們對於這個業者繳交的這一個基金我們還是有很多意見譬如說這個業者要負責回收的責任錢拿不拿不拿都沒有但這個錢還頂了很少"},{"start":11411.011,"end":11435.093,"text":"這個責任都丟給社會丟給政府丟給這些做回收的可是從上游的錢然後這些結構都沒有改變既有的這些錢來分配既有的既得利益者也在那裡錢也不拿出來你現在編列要給這個回收的個別死亡者去處理你只能還要用公務預算然後你這個基金挖能夠挖多少"},{"start":11435.934,"end":11459.614,"text":"所以最終我們一直在講兩法合一這個法律面結構面責任承擔上從生產製造輸入的業者要承擔更多你們也是沒有作為喔這個也是沒作為好在這個法律沒有處理的狀況裡面就現在目前你還能不能再分配更多再給這一些個別的釋放者可以嗎"},{"start":11460.509,"end":11479.003,"text":"各位報告那現在在五角辦他的創辦人已經是我們費率委員會的委員那就可以從一個費率結構來看一下說我們這個補貼的一個架構的一個合理性一個委員進去你們裡面討論能夠真的有決定性的影響嗎是你們啦你們要有願意改革的心啦"},{"start":11479.383,"end":11489.749,"text":"有啦 包委員因為我們的經驗是說有時候通常這個都是找專家學者啦那這個專家學者不見得那麼懂得死荒者的不要講專家學者我剛剛這樣講你不覺得結構上分配上已經不合理了嗎失衡了嗎是我們過去是都沒有找死荒者來參與補貼給這個大型的業者大的業者然後風險來了叫每一個死荒者全部去扛起來和承擔"},{"start":11505.578,"end":11523.598,"text":"這樣子合理嗎那就不要再講結構上的問題了那個我已經也講很多遍了光是這一環都要大幅的改變我們希望開始有人進來跟我們一起協力來改變這樣的措施你們錢要給出來資源要給出來才是重點是是是好 謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":11530.987,"end":11534.949,"text":"好 謝謝林淑芬委員那下一位請我們廖北祥委員謝謝主席先請彭部長還有我們的農業部的次長好 請彭部長還有農業部次長趙偉豪"},{"start":11548.786,"end":11564.427,"text":"今天早上其實聽了很多位委員的發言那其實也可以看到一個蠻大的狀況我先首先先問一下部長其實你後來給的報告全國廚餘養豬場有百分之百上傳的有幾家"},{"start":11565.528,"end":11572.992,"text":"上次的報告是151家對 所以也換言之曾經有漏傳過的是284家佔了6乘5 6乘5.3% 65.3%好 這是第一個問題第二個問題剛剛劉建國委員在質詢的時候也問了兩位現在發現說這個養豬場它標售到了之後這個廚餘又轉到了另外一個C養豬場"},{"start":11591.92,"end":11620.126,"text":"那你們到底要怎麼罰用什麼管法誰可以罰剛剛你們一直推來推去答不出來現在有答案嗎還是你繼續認同剛剛你們的答案有廢清法第幾條48條48條是很清楚這應該是有問題的喔因為除於養豬的有那個可以除於在利用的這個養豬場如果A公A家標到他還是可以讓C家去在喔是不是這樣不可以不可以完全不可以嗎"},{"start":11620.928,"end":11641.864,"text":"是依照減核計畫裡面就有規定它的收受來源 清運的是誰 到什麼地方如果沒有符合以上的就那到底可不可以 它可不可以它可不可以譬如說它A養豬場它標到了之後另外一家C養豬場也有合法可以再利用的執照那它可不可以給它"},{"start":11642.925,"end":11661.167,"text":"如果在那個檢核裡面有寫就可以所以是可以所以是可以那以這個狀況他可以不可以因為這個本席剛剛很疑惑第一個你們推來推去搞不清楚狀況不知道到底誰管使用什麼法管你們還查了一大堆查了很久喔這其實是一個很大的問題啊"},{"start":11662.088,"end":11683.851,"text":"那再來地方這邊有說這個是有許可證的兩個廠都有所以就算A標到C廠他如果有正式的執照他要去載他要去用是沒有問題是沒有法可以罰他的請問究竟可以不可以他必須在地方經過檢核過就是再利用檢核"},{"start":11684.031,"end":11701.903,"text":"那如果在利用有檢核過他是有這個許可證的就是說有地方發的這個許可證的他可以去載對不對你們就沒辦法罰對不對對對嘛好所以你們剛剛這樣子整個狀況推來推去你就會發現環節是有疏漏的因為第一個分工界線也不是很清楚那"},{"start":11702.643,"end":11723.07,"text":"可能環境部認為說廢棄物是你們管的那他用廢清法農業部覺得要用廚餘還沒蒸煮之前可能是環境部管的然後整個運送收集的過程可能都會有模糊地帶所以本席從早上聽質詢到現在這是第二個很大的問題所以我想要表達的是說"},{"start":11724.83,"end":11747.361,"text":"從邊境進來之外這個病毒不會從台灣突然無中生有跑出來對不對那進來之外就到了廚餘但廚餘管理本身是有很大的問題所以當初決定不全面禁止廚餘養豬的時候管理就會冒很大的風險所以包含剛剛那個部長也回答嘛總共有284家曾經漏上船"},{"start":11747.941,"end":11776.281,"text":"如果他任何一次漏上船的時候他沒有落實真主那一次是不是就可能會爆發豬瘟這第一件事第二件事情是既然當初決定是用這個沒有要全面禁止廚養豬為什麼過了這麼多年呢卻沒有好好的效法日本有統一的管理像包含剛剛所謂的這個桃園或者是雲林他們統一處理完之後再分送到各個豬場這樣子的管理風險和管理流程就會嚴謹許多啊 部長"},{"start":11777.631,"end":11791.311,"text":"謝謝委員 其實第一個是說如果說那個他沒有90%他基本上我們如果沒有徵組的話其實我們又要求他縣市環保局要去集合集合他有沒有照規定 然後就會改正"},{"start":11792.432,"end":11808.501,"text":"你這個我們其實上一次討論過很多但是這個管理流程還是會有疏漏嘛他今天沒有上船了他那一天沒有上船那他如果沒有落實珍珠你後面再去集合的時候他是不是也漏洞了這是會有的嘛所以這當時的技術只能做到這樣因為這個當時五六年前"},{"start":11809.301,"end":11825.403,"text":"對 所以本席要講的事情是你剛剛有說你未來的方向當然你傾向於全面禁止那就是秀敬未來的方向是什麼你有沒有要繼續斟酌除雨如果要或不要你都應該要有配套嘛所以應該是過了這麼久應該要盡速的跟上"},{"start":11826.124,"end":11843.801,"text":"譬如說日本的腳步有比較多的統一集中處理的地方然後譬如說剛好包含著變成迅速變成堆肥還有部分變成所謂的飼養株汁的營養液這才是要儘速追上的一個正解部長所以本席就是想問這部分是不是可以儘速的改善加強"},{"start":11844.241,"end":11869.602,"text":"好 謝謝委員的確我們都有在研議中長城的規劃但是這個最後還沒有定案而且跨部位的協調現在最大的問題就是說我們的廚餘量現在每天還缺了500噸所以我們如何這個有沒有一個時間點可以把這個500噸用更好的方法例如說堆肥或是說整個整個生殖能的方式去做處理或是黑水盲那其實這個部分我們正在估算然後還有每一個縣市它到底因為這個每個縣市"},{"start":11870.162,"end":11895.905,"text":"是不大一樣 我們正在進行當中因為今天這個時間我也是想要盡量控制這一題我們也花了蠻多的時間請部長 儘速評估完之後究竟現在我們所謂的這種統一處理的方式你要多久的時間可不可以趕快跟上再提供給本席辦公室好不好我們等到這個事情因為現在都在救災我們剛剛打不清楚是我們最懂的是都全部在應變中心那也請你們吉利跟行政院"},{"start":11896.886,"end":11916.96,"text":"就是趕快去推動你所謂的這些希望未來的中長期的規劃還有相關的預算好不好沒有問題我們現在正在進行當中部長再來進到下一題就是其實這個廢棄物流向管理的問題環境部每一年在智慧執法在無人機 衛星影像 GPS這些追蹤的科技工具你們也投入了很多的經費"},{"start":11918.041,"end":11940.642,"text":"那其中環管署在去年8月20號也報請行政院核定推動這個叫做強化全國廢棄物流向遠端數位管理智慧決策計畫那也在今天的報告第5頁也有寫到那為什麼請教一下部長為什麼明年的預算書裡面沒有這個計劃請問行政院有核定這個計劃了嗎有沒有計劃核定的文號"},{"start":11943.713,"end":11963.028,"text":"這個文號還沒下來 但是在行政院裡面有做過決議所以在組計處和這個整體預算預編的時候有把這個拿進去那後續我們這個文號在審查之前會把它補上來所以你現在還有在申請當中因為本席並沒有看到這個相關的之前都在行政院討論過有確定"},{"start":11965.492,"end":11978.697,"text":"好所以我要進一步說環關署之前用行政院核定的這個預防環保犯罪暨智慧執法打造綠色幸福家園計劃好那這個計劃呢從112年開始到117年"},{"start":11983.038,"end":11997.225,"text":"所以今年以前行政院跟環境部的施政報告都有這個計劃那也說了有多好多好的成效等等但是計劃明明是到117年才結束為什麼明年的預算中已經沒有這個計劃那部長這個行政院的這個計劃並不是只有讓"},{"start":12001.167,"end":12021.195,"text":"部會編列預算重點在每個計劃中每一年度的每個子計劃都有計劃目標啊也就是所謂的指標說明或者是績效指標還有管考所以這個計劃到了115 116 117這三年就沒有了嗎是明年就開始不要建置這個智慧化的整合性平台嗎"},{"start":12023.371,"end":12046.124,"text":"跟委員報告這個計畫我們確實有報行政院就把它中止因為近年來那個環保犯罪的樣態已經是組織化跟這個上下有結合化所以這一個部分我們在精進成剛才講的智慧維理計畫來推動這個取代它不過它裡面該做的事情也都含在裡面以上"},{"start":12047.103,"end":12074.731,"text":"對因為這個東西目前一直到現在感覺雖然你們的報告裡面說抓了很多可是事實上並沒有真正的遏止這樣的情況出現所以剛剛部長是說的很好也很漂亮就是說破壞環境就是一種罪我相信部長也有這樣的決心但是事實上現在的寶島美麗寶島已經被許多的非法棄置集團變成垃圾島那我覺得這環境部也難辭其咎要盡速的去調整"},{"start":12075.271,"end":12081.119,"text":"所以我要進一步就問到比較具體的案例想要請問一下部長現在高雄的美濃大峽谷被罰了多少錢"},{"start":12082.585,"end":12106.741,"text":"這個地方正在偵查當中然後這種整個集團也在也在偵訊當中那未來他們要負責清理復原的工作部長我跟你說目前比較明確的是1430萬是然後業者呢最後僅以這個好像3萬10萬元交保好像不到10萬元交保那我想要問一下部長你知道這個利益有多龐大嗎倘若他這樣挖下去真的有廢棄物侵到在裡面"},{"start":12107.722,"end":12122.264,"text":"本席要不要算給你們看一下我們很清楚很清楚嘛對不對所以我在這裡也算一下給大家聽可能有些人不知道它這個地方6公頃然後呢深度20公尺的話它這個地方總共會有120萬立方公尺"},{"start":12123.886,"end":12130.715,"text":"那一立方公尺大概可以到1.5噸所以是180萬噸這個美濃大峽谷180萬噸的廢棄物那180萬噸如果每一台車大概是載10噸的話是18萬車次"},{"start":12141.049,"end":12147.393,"text":"18萬車次如果現在的費用最便宜是1萬啦比較貴是1萬5喔如果是1萬5的話是27億耶27億你還沒有算它的土方的價格它土方如果拿去賣120萬噸賣一個是800塊的話是9.6億喔這加起來將近是37億這是一個估算那這是一個估算喔"},{"start":12163.385,"end":12192.124,"text":"所以在這些東西裡面你可以看到他的這些非法所以部長這個殺頭的生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做所以你現在的法則跟這個東西你不覺得相差很大嗎所以我們再進一步說到了下一個另外一個場非法棄置案中的另外一個場犯罪集團仍然以偽造單據虛假QR code碼的掃描這些很低劣的手法躲過了監管"},{"start":12193.565,"end":12210.508,"text":"可以看到現在的科技執法工具的整合運用還有重大的漏洞所以包含剛剛你們說的這些行政院申請的專案當中最主要項目之一是擴大部件車輛的車牌辨識和e-tag系統所以其實這個東西現在看起來也不是"},{"start":12211.229,"end":12226.702,"text":"好像沒有成效很好而且另外廢棄物從生產端到清運端到處理端要做的這個即時幫襯申報目前環保團體也說目前流向追蹤仍然有很大的漏洞啊然後申報不實的行為通常也只被開罰6000元"},{"start":12228.323,"end":12255.646,"text":"所以比起剛剛算的這個巨大的不法利益裡面看起來是根本不痛不癢啊部長這部分是不是應該要改善裁罰的標準要去這次的法裡面你們要去精進對報告委員其實第一個你說的沒錯那個法部分我們會精進那另外一個呢是現在還在偵辦當中所以未來呢這個不法所得行為人的部分一定要把他追回來所以這個部分其實事實上是我們因為這個案子是我們抓到我們團隊抓到的可是你剛剛也說你們"},{"start":12256.627,"end":12272.47,"text":"不知道追不追得回來很多人脫產啦我們會努力啦你脫產啦因為現在他們很厲害很厲害啦所以我們是是沒錯他們也是日新月異可是你們好像一直跟不上這個部分要請部長不然這個事情會一直發生喔是一直一直的發生因為這個利益太龐大了沒錯"},{"start":12273.831,"end":12295.558,"text":"好 那部長 下一題 這個最後一題就是有關於城市採礦的政策今天這個題目還蠻重要的所以包含城市採礦的部分 其實台灣事實上放棄了很多機會對內來說呢 僅用手機的部分像日本已經建立了都市的礦山體系那單台回收手機就能提煉大概46公克的黃金 275公克的銀"},{"start":12298.419,"end":12327.971,"text":"那台灣每一年每一年的市場上銷售540萬支手機回收率卻只有5.2%這部分是不是有點差太多有這個部分我們已經訂了一個規範從明年應該是明年開始就有訂出回收率的一個目標應該到20要不要說明一下各位報告因為就是那個手機是因為我們個人習慣的關係所以回收率其實各國會差不多那我們有定一個循環率"},{"start":12328.444,"end":12353.632,"text":"還有回收率那加起來要是明年會讓他提高一些標準簡單來講今天要問這一題很重要的原因是因為現在大家知道國際局勢的變化包含前陣子所謂的稀土靜止的問題所以你可以看到我們台灣的這個相關的半導體產業很多也是中小企業可能國際也缺乏規模供應鏈中下游也依賴進口所以一旦"},{"start":12354.572,"end":12373.862,"text":"這個大陸出口受限的話風險可能就直接轉到我們的台灣的產業裡面那每一年的我們的電子垃圾是超過6000萬噸那其中呢 蘊含大量的貴金屬跟稀土元素那這些價值其實跟傳統的礦藏相提並論所以這個部分是我們台灣很重要的"},{"start":12374.502,"end":12402.145,"text":"的新的戰略資源所以這部分就是說我們不應該是只有口號要請部長今天當然你的報告裡面有寫到相關的東西可是我認為還不是很具體所以包含你的評估到底有沒有完成的來源地然後替代性然後庫存天數的相關的風險評估跟預警還有到底需要多少你剛剛只是很快的帶過說這有關於國家戰略那這部分我想要請教一下部長這所謂的國家戰略到底是什麼"},{"start":12402.845,"end":12431.318,"text":"為什麼為什麼講的這麼要講成這樣因為其實現在這個我們也在觀察例如說我們跟有些國家國與國之間談的這個稀土未來這種像這樣的類似的合作我們都要列入評估那我們也要知道每個國家的戰略是什麼所以我們的確現在正在調查整合當中那這個裡面有的是有產業的那也有國與國的合作所以現在其實不方便說很多但另外一個呢是我們還有跟經濟部一起合作所以現在這是現在進行是也跟委員報告"},{"start":12431.738,"end":12454.255,"text":"如果真的涉及到這個國家安全戰略或相關的秘密當然你不用在這裡講但是我必須說的事情是不能用這個當作是一個空泛的理由因為稀土元素跟這個菇柏族的這個金屬相關的關鍵礦物在半導體製程裡面你剛有一個簡報比如說高階電子元件啊國防科技是不可或缺對不對但是"},{"start":12454.875,"end":12471.983,"text":"其實還有一個重要的就是技術的部分關於公研院這個針對這個女和嫡有計畫2026的計轉但是其他的元素呢國內有沒有回收廠商有技術可以做這個資源回收再利用其實目前看不到在報告裡面是看不到的是"},{"start":12472.663,"end":12501.676,"text":"所以我本席擔心的是如果你們沒有真實的去調查去分析去評估然後我們到底需要什麼現在今天的報告就是一個淪為空泛的會變成是你說我用國家戰略所以現在不能講我們擔心的是不能有空泛的狀況因為每一個金屬都每一個金屬它的如何提煉回收都不一樣不是統一而定所以我們其實我們內部跟一些產業都談了很久是很複雜的東西所以沒有時間在這個委員會那個五分鐘可以報告完"},{"start":12502.15,"end":12525.985,"text":"那希望到時候有機會再跟部長好好請益一下周耳的細節好不好你相關的細節可不可以提供給本辦辦公室我認為這是一個很重要因為現在才發現說原來現在台灣可能很多或甚至全球很多的半導體產業或國家才發現說原來這個這麼重要所以我們必須趕緊的跟上因為這也事關除了產業之外更重要是關於我們的國防安全謝謝部長謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":12534.076,"end":12551.161,"text":"好 謝謝廖偉強委員 那請我們下一位我們陳冠廷委員我們請環境部部長好 請環境部彭部長"},{"start":12555.024,"end":12576.984,"text":"部長今年環境部他針對旅宿用品公告一次性的用品限制那我也請教了我們這個觀光署的署長他們認為說這也是有必要要去調整去改進的因為他對觀光業的影響是非常大的那有很多民怨所以我要直接在這邊"},{"start":12578.165,"end":12585.411,"text":"來替我們所有的民眾跟這些旅宿業者來請命希望說一次性備品的機率必須要有調整部長你怎麼看"},{"start":12586.694,"end":12610.954,"text":"包委員 這個其實是一開始不習慣啦 不習慣但是我們自己統計過 我們也做過一個民調大概有將近七成多的民眾是支持的天啊 你這個民調是怎麼做的我們有問問誰 哪一個公司樣本多少你們做兩次民調 然後超過七成的人都同意這樣的做法但是我必須說你們的問題 問卷 我就很懷疑喔"},{"start":12611.707,"end":12637.37,"text":"這跟我們得到的所有的旅宿業者跟一般民眾的看法是完全天翻地覆的完全不一致的嘛我不知道你們是怎麼樣做的民調欸這是真的委託專業人士去做的民調哪一間公司嗎你這樣民調就跟當初高鐵說這一個高鐵公司也有做民調然後說80%以上的人都支持臨近車廂直到民眾反彈 新聞反彈然後他們說他們也有民調"},{"start":12638.635,"end":12658.255,"text":"其實包圍了任何的改變環保要這個其實全世界在歐洲優先持續這個署長部長我們一開始也跟你討論過我們之前也是很重視我們這個環境的問題包含快食上我們都很重視但是我們不要把這種東西把它歸咎給消費者讓他們要去做額外的負擔那我們現在講的這些你現在講這個一次性備品"},{"start":12660.757,"end":12685.476,"text":"現在很多這個業者 旅宿業者他們就不斷的在擴張這個一次性備品包含他們在販賣機就直接設在一樓最後你還是要去那邊一樓再買這一些不環保的東西嘛那有些國外的重要的貴賓來到台灣然後最後說因為他們住的這些飯店沒有這些一次性的備品所以他們走到樓下跑到便利商店買更昂貴的一次性備品"},{"start":12686.297,"end":12710.282,"text":"而且他們只用一次這些本來可以長期使用的這些牙刷 牙膏所有的備品他們就把它拿去用一次然後一樣丟在飯店的垃圾桶裡面所以這個事情是明明就已經出現跟民意有很大差別的地方我還是強調說如果這樣搞的話未來是不是航空公司比較長時間的旅程的話叫他們也不可以來去提供一次性的備品"},{"start":12711.733,"end":12726.225,"text":"再繼續擴張我們這樣不斷的擴張的時候沒有任何一個部門它的意志是可以超越其他的部門的我們同時也要跟交通部要跟觀光署去協調旅宿業者也不是只有消費者感到難過"},{"start":12727.806,"end":12743.914,"text":"旅出業者也覺得他們品牌壓力啊其他的國家同樣的品牌同樣的新等在台灣要付出的價格更多服務種類更少提供的備品也是更少的那你怎麼做他們的差異化怎麼樣做出他們服務差異化怎麼樣提高我們的國旅"},{"start":12744.814,"end":12763.601,"text":"我的意思是說我們當然支持這樣的環保政策但是部長可不可以來思考一下有沒有辦法來找到一個同時平衡我國的觀光旅遊的平衡點可不可以試著去思考一下比方說不要用懲罰的方式可不可以用獎勵的方式"},{"start":12764.241,"end":12791.4,"text":"在日本 大家很愛拿日本當例子但事實上日本的這些星級飯店或者是一般的飯店就是有提供有提供的時候他們提出來的這樣的一次性備品會付諸說他們減少了百分之比方說他們減少了百分之三十的排放量或者是說他們會說他們使用什麼樣的替代性的可持續性的這些原料來去做這些備品這些東西就是可以找出我們可以共生的這種方式"},{"start":12793.249,"end":12807.53,"text":"我一直都認為環境的政策是一步一步來的我們不必要一次性的來用這樣子環保至上之後然後來去把其他的可以發展的空間就把它限縮掉了部長可不可以簡單回應我們一下好 謝謝委員"},{"start":12809.512,"end":12838.12,"text":"環保就是我們的一個目標啦當然我同意委員的看法就是說大家改變的時候可能沒有那麼的習慣那這個部分我們會來檢討例如說在今年未來明年的話可不可以有一些配套的措施來獎勵來輔助這樣的一個措施不過因為整個像歐洲很多的國家或是其實我們有統計有數據很多的國家都已經這樣做了所以委員的建議我們會來做一個評估是不是可以在在這種獎勵上面能夠做一些鼓勵可不可以用獎勵來代替這種懲罰因為我看你們用這個"},{"start":12839.22,"end":12855.195,"text":"其實懲罰現在的方式因為執行是在地方單位其實真的懲罰沒有那麼的多但是我們還是期待民眾可以自己帶這個要養成的確是要一兩年的時間我都是自己帶啦我先跟大家講說但我不會把我自己的價值觀強壓在其他的消費者身上"},{"start":12856.272,"end":12876.193,"text":"我不覺得說我們要把我們自己的價值觀強壓在我們其他消費者上的原因就是說你也可以選擇不使用嘛你的背景就是你也可以選擇不使用為什麼一定要把自己的價值觀然後全部再強壓在其他人身上包委員那個不使用對旅館而言它還是丟掉還是造成一些很大的浪費所以基本上這個是多數國家它本來就有的作為"},{"start":12876.793,"end":12905.878,"text":"但是韋爺你提的建議很好因為我們也看到有一些業者給我們一些不一樣的聲音我們也都聽到了我的建議還是一樣就不要一刀切你這旅宿業者有各種各樣的旅宿業者你喜歡說像日本他們有溫泉旅館他們有這種新級的酒店他們會有像這樣子這種會議型的這種旅館很多現在台灣的來台灣旅遊的國際旅客他不是只以純觀光旅遊為目的有些是因為參加會議你參加會議的時候將來把所有的備品都帶在身上"},{"start":12906.738,"end":12931.67,"text":"那你要不要做一個區隔化支持 但是不可以這樣子一刀切全部全面都用同樣的方式來去對每一個旅宿業者你認為他們都serve同樣的目的沒有 有些是為了會議的有些為了觀光的有些是家庭旅遊的那家庭旅遊 你沒有備品你要叫他們已經要帶很多東西然後又要再準備更多東西來參加會議的 有些兩天一夜的你要叫他們再把東西全部帶準"},{"start":12933.51,"end":12954.576,"text":"來帶過來我提到的原因就是因為就真的是很多人在跟我們反映啊從民宿業者從觀光業者到一般民眾到外國的政要都覺得說這是一件很奇妙的事情為什麼一定要這樣謝謝委員那個環保的確是有一點不麻煩跟以前習慣不一樣但是這是正確走的路但是委員提到的是說我們是不是有一點修正然後鼓勵的方法我們會來研議好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12959.93,"end":12984.968,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員發言請圖全吉委員發言好謝謝主席那請我們環境部彭部長還有我們環關署的嚴署長請部長跟嚴署長圖偉偉好好"},{"start":12987.466,"end":13004.055,"text":"部長 那我們2050淨零是我們全世界目標也是我們台灣的目標嘛 對不對那我們在2022年有公布2050年淨零排放的路徑包含我們四大轉型還有兩大治理基礎那還有12項關鍵戰略這12項關鍵戰略部長應該都還記得嘛"},{"start":13009.938,"end":13037.45,"text":"那我們其中有一項是運具電動化及無碳化那我們當然知道針對這一部分是交通部在擬定可是我們看我們環境部也有針對低碳垃圾車這個計畫那我們低碳垃圾車的計畫基本上也是為了要降低空污那居然去做低碳垃圾車那為什麼不去做電動垃圾車"},{"start":13040.415,"end":13068.151,"text":"因為我有去看過幾個電動垃圾車他們的反應是說第一個是說過去是量比較少第二個是說它的里程比較少載重也會比較少所以目前我們有一個計畫的確是在事辦當中是不是請我們署長來說明一下跟委員報告低碳垃圾車為什麼不用直接跑到電動的因為電動的現在它的重量很重載的"},{"start":13069.201,"end":13095.988,"text":"如果垃圾車載的垃圾多一點點就會不符合現在公路法規的要求現在還在努力以上對 據我們了解之前是應該欠缺營業需求車輛的電池的問題之前應該是電池技術的問題可是現在我們了解像荷蘭路特單還有越南順化甚至連我們高雄都已經都在市營業上路了"},{"start":13096.508,"end":13113.267,"text":"那既然已經這個技術如果能夠突破那與其你現在花錢去做低碳垃圾車是不是應該要去規劃一下去做我們的電動垃圾車而且我們有運具電動化及無碳化這個需求"},{"start":13113.908,"end":13136.39,"text":"我們在2025年的時候有針對公務車電動化那我們當然我們希望我們政府也來做表率嘛像我們公務車啦交通車甚至除了像我們這個電動垃圾車以外電動垃圾車它還有後面也有資源回收車那據我們了解全台灣的垃圾車大概有5500輛那加上"},{"start":13137.071,"end":13160.868,"text":"支援回收垃圾車那加起來等於是一萬多輛那而且我們垃圾車它是在大街小巷穿梭而且它是帶速那現在我們知道現在幾乎都是用柴油其實它這個空污是非常非常嚴重對於民眾還有清潔隊員其實我覺得這對他們也是很大的困擾也是很直接危害他們的健康"},{"start":13162.128,"end":13184.457,"text":"那是不是這部分我覺得應該現在如果技術上可以突破應該可以直接參考與其你現在花錢去補助低碳熱車車那是不是如果這技術可以突破應該儘早去規劃把這個直接做電動熱車車因為你低碳只是減少那電動幾乎是可以讓它到凌空屋"},{"start":13185.957,"end":13205.526,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們會來考因為這個不斷的技術在進步啦如果有新的我們當然是歡迎那但是也跟委員報告因為未來的這個財化法之後這個所謂的這個垃圾處理是地方的事務那我們會盡量再多爭取一些計畫型的經費然後來跟地方合作是不是電動的垃圾車的部分可以比例可以把它加強"},{"start":13206.567,"end":13222.388,"text":"對那當然我也希望說因為這也是屬於環境部的業務那我們居然2050要去進齡那當然很多的地方要朝著這目標去前進是好那我們針對今天我們講的重點那"},{"start":13225.046,"end":13239.934,"text":"我們目前因為中美稀土大戰開始以來那稀土已經成為全球高科技跟綠能產業的關鍵資源也是各國競相佈局的戰略焦點那對於稀土貴金屬的循環利用"},{"start":13240.774,"end":13254.976,"text":"那部長之前有說規劃要成立四大金屬國家隊那我不知道針對我們稀土貴金屬的循環利用我們環境部現在有沒有擬定要怎麼樣子來達成各項指標這指標有沒有去擬定"},{"start":13256.078,"end":13271.92,"text":"好 鮑偉現在還在彙整大家的意見因為這每一家每一家都是蠻特別蠻獨特的甚至已經有些上市的公司所以基本上每一家的需求不一樣而且每一種金屬它的這個深度跟廣度跟知識都很不一樣"},{"start":13272.461,"end":13294.495,"text":"所以我跟委員報告我們還在整合當中希望可以有一個花幾個月的時間把大家再匯集起來但是我們的確已經找到一群專門去做這種所謂的貴金屬的一個公司我們希望一起來合作來推動我們辦了一些活動大家都很有共識這個部分我們環境部會跟經濟部一起來推動這個事情"},{"start":13294.955,"end":13324.205,"text":"对 所以因为我们看部长从公布四大金属国家队之后我们发现有很多的稀有的贵金属这些资源并没有被列入所以可能应该要去盘点清楚一下像我们四大部分我看了一下我们是包含稀贵金属稀土资源 能源金属 单一金属那可是这四项四大类稀土贵金属在盘点之后我们发现像很多稀土贵金属都没有"},{"start":13324.685,"end":13336.41,"text":"列入像山 陰 老 地 壁 木 還有隙這些像我們在2019年經濟部有舉辦了一場亞太循環經濟論壇那裡面有成立了台灣循環經濟大聯盟"},{"start":13342.833,"end":13358.624,"text":"那时候我们查了一下那时候惠元国有331家那其中有7家是锡柜金属的回收业者可是我们发现这7家回收业者他收的很多的锡柜金属好像"},{"start":13359.884,"end":13386.753,"text":"並不在我們環境部部長列的這幾項裡面是不是遺漏了包委員其實都有啦我只是沒有把廠商說出來所有的都露出來其實這個都在我們的雷達網裡面啦可是因為我們看你寫的並沒有列出來我們想說是不是這幾個重要的都沒有列到因為像我們台灣有一個唯一一家廠商他有在"},{"start":13388.368,"end":13398.193,"text":"收這個廢料就是那個我們汙化合物那我們去了解之後他所收的這個汙廢料來自我們台灣的只有5%"},{"start":13399.673,"end":13421.144,"text":"那也就是說很多其他的這些污廢料因為它不需申報所以很多都賣到國外去啊那我們怎麼可以讓這些資源都流落到國外去那現在這麼重要的資源你看我們自己台灣的只收到5%很多的沒有申報那是不是這一部分我們是要怎麼樣去加強來管理"},{"start":13421.944,"end":13440.604,"text":"對 所以我們現在剛剛委員講到問題就是大多數的這個金屬都送到國外去了然後別人這個加工做得更好更有價值回來所以我們現在是希望都留在台灣所以我現在不斷的在跟大家因為每一個金屬委員其實這個你這邊列的就十幾種了我們自己掌握的大概二三十種"},{"start":13441.164,"end":13455.484,"text":"那二三十種裡面呢其實都對應著不一樣的公司所以我們是一個一個談那因為每一個金屬它的技術門檻或是各方面的問題都不一樣所以我們現在會跟經濟部一起來合作把大家組起來確定之後再對外說"},{"start":13456.565,"end":13470.441,"text":"對啊 因為現在這個迫在眉梢尤其國內高科技這個發展非常需要這些稀土貴金屬那我們了解台灣目前針對稀土貴金屬應該是有三大困境一個體積小"},{"start":13472.663,"end":13490.658,"text":"再來精煉成本高還有回收率低所以現在部長應該要針對我們稀土貴金屬這些預期目標趕快去達成像它的法源還有設施技術等等是不是要盡快來整合趕快擬定避免我們這些資源"},{"start":13492.159,"end":13511.945,"text":"都流落到國外去這樣子我們這循環經濟這些循環資源反而都流落到國外去把我們這些重要資產都沒有好好把握住是 我們會來做 委員會來做好 那也希望說居然部長已經有提出這個方向我們希望讓我們趕快這些預期指標能夠盡快來完成像它的相關法源"},{"start":13513.125,"end":13538.61,"text":"設施 技術我們要趕快找這些回收業者來整合是 沒問題也希望委員多給我們這個指教到底我們有沒有遺漏的哪些公司或產業都歡迎委員可以多給我們一些意見對 因為既然部長有這樣講那我們提出你說你只能沒有把它列出來那我們希望說你居然有掌握有整合 有盤點清楚不要讓這些很多的稀有的貴金屬去流落到國外去好 沒問題好 謝謝部長"},{"start":13545.113,"end":13557.521,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員發言 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請彭部長還有農業部的次長"},{"start":13559.775,"end":13588.559,"text":"部長跟次長謝謝王委員好部長好部長我想先請教就是說從非洲豬瘟爆發到現在其實大家關心的就是儲雨處理後續怎麼去處理那昨天那個農業部的部長他有對外表示就是說原則就是儲雨原則禁止那有條件的開放有條件的開放那我想請教就是說其實在這個儲雨的前端是"},{"start":13589.279,"end":13611.981,"text":"環境部跟地方的環保局那到這個養豬場這後面就農業部在處理那我想請教就是說如果是有條件的開放那未來就像現在我們這一場發生非洲豬瘟的這個養豬場他也是沒有確實把這個資料上傳那未來是不是"},{"start":13612.722,"end":13640.967,"text":"有什么样的方式能够更有效如果说有养猪场他确实也要用这个厨余来养猪的话那你们现在应该要去想到怎么样去有效的去监控如果这个养猪场如果像现在的话他只是传照片其实你自己原本也没办法去分辨他这个照片到底是什么时候的照片什么时候传你根本都不知道那是不是可以用比较及时"},{"start":13641.727,"end":13659.495,"text":"可能動態及時的這種監控的方式是不是做得到報告委員 這個我們已經都有攜帶我們的指引而且已經有找到解決方案了如果說農業部規範相關的規定因為裡面有第一個法規要修正"},{"start":13660.255,"end":13684.409,"text":"農業部的法規要修正我們都內部協調了第二個我們什麼時候可以完成目前我們都有找到相關的技術的可行性例如說CCTV直接看到有幾個蒸煮廠第二個是溫度的探針到煮槽裡面可以每一個小時每一分鐘都可以看得到它的量是不是煮了60分鐘有沒有90度所以這個部分我們如果可以即時監控的話"},{"start":13685.51,"end":13699.741,"text":"按照這個我們跟農業部的一個共識可能就可以開放珍珠不過這個還是要政策上的最後決定那現在呢我們就在等跟農業部跨部會在協調當中那我也必須透過委員這樣說其實除於珍珠不是"},{"start":13700.521,"end":13723.143,"text":"这个万恶不赦它是循环经济的一个一环那我们必须要肯定我们过去的这个厨余的处理的成本透过养猪的程序帮我们消化掉如果回到这个完全不要有厨余的话其实的确会增加很多餐厅还有我们家户的这个厨余的变成废弃物的一种成本所以我们也必须去考量所以后面的处理我们正在规划当中"},{"start":13724.163,"end":13741.011,"text":"我希望就是說後面如果後續還有處於養豬的話我覺得監控這個真的非常重要就是說像爆發非洲豬瘟的養豬場其實它在4月份過後可能就不正常的傳輸你們根本也都不知道"},{"start":13741.471,"end":13756.601,"text":"可能地方的環保局他也沒有確實去掌握那如果地方政府沒辦法確實掌握那中央政府怎麼去管我是不是可以先請教部長如果地方譬如說這個養豬場由地方的環保局來監控"},{"start":13757.681,"end":13776.133,"text":"那地方環保局如果沒有很確實去監控的話那中央政府這邊怎麼去知道包委員其實現在我們過去的制度是都有照片也知道日期所以那幾家沒有做得好的我們都有數據然後都通知地方環保局他們第一線去監控我們再去複查"},{"start":13776.633,"end":13799.395,"text":"那未来呢像这样的话就是及时的所以我们环境部农业部跟地方环保局甚至猪农他都完全可以看到那个数据所以未来呢会是一个不是像这样有时间落差的地方政府看得到地方的环保局看得到然后中央可能你们这边某个单位也都看得到同一个资料平台就可以看到监控这个数据我就觉得这样就可以让大家心安"},{"start":13799.755,"end":13819.65,"text":"好那另外部長我也想請教就是說之前有提到就是統一的真主中心那未來這個政策會去推動嗎跟委員報告因為統一真主的這個部分那可能要是那個各縣市的他的這個規模那所以目前來說一般200頭以上的大型的這個"},{"start":13821.271,"end":13839.316,"text":"租場的話他大概都是有自己的珍珠設備那所以我們可能就是透過剛剛彭部長所說的這種即時的CCTV包括溫度監控上傳的這樣的一個資訊還有修訂我們的這個法規相關那變成能夠即時監控然後可以落實的這個狀況之下才來繼續推動"},{"start":13841.397,"end":13861.546,"text":"如果說沒有到養豬場的也許還有一些廚餘你們後續這些要怎麼處理就是說我們可能各縣市有的廚餘它可能透過清潔隊有的就直接到養豬場有些可能沒有到養豬場像這樣子的話你們後續會怎麼處理"},{"start":13863.727,"end":13882.886,"text":"会直接进到焚化炉吗对没有其实现在进到焚化炉是不得已的做法因为这个其实除于是有生命其实是有价值的东西应该把它能源化堆肥化或是用黑水盲所以我们的确现在未来这几年会规划到底量能什么时候起来就是不要去送焚化炉了"},{"start":13883.266,"end":13897.989,"text":"因為送焚化爐其實浪費了浪費了也對於這個原來的垃圾也會造成很大的排擠所以我們現在正在規劃現在正在精密的算但是每個縣市不一樣像這個雲林它雖然說它不用廚餘未租可是雲林的"},{"start":13898.61,"end":13920.848,"text":"这个猪的厨余也是跑到彰化去啊所以就造成很大的负担那未来呢清洁的部分有可能会从过去的养猪场去收厨余未来会产生一些改变那这个改变呢现在我们正在协调当中未来可能会是一种专业的收厨余的团队在收厨余也有可能在做清理这个未来都有可能会发生"},{"start":13922.449,"end":13927.972,"text":"接下來我再請教養豬場也許自己收了廚餘收的廚餘可能吃不完就給其他的養豬場類似這樣的狀況或者是養豬場我上禮我這個禮拜也有特別問到有的比較小的養豬場"},{"start":13943.061,"end":13968.752,"text":"那可能就是非常小場然後養了幾十隻那他就是收可能這個一般家戶的就是人家直接拿到這個養豬場外面就直接丟著就知道他有在用廚餘餵豬嘛那未來像這樣的狀況到底是可以或者是不可以委員現在是200頭以下都不可以200頭以上所以像委員講的那個情況問題是這個確實是存在的啊"},{"start":13970.085,"end":13990.092,"text":"對 所以這個其實是未來是不允許的這個都是有罰則的目前是有罰則的所以其實就是說我們管控其實也不嚴格啦在200頭以下的這個禁止處理養豬的這個部分事實上我們在這個都有透過這個定期的查訪去做這樣的一個落實"},{"start":13992.619,"end":14007.732,"text":"好那你们说有确实那其实确实地方还是有这样的这种状况存在那最后我想请教这个农业部就是说原本是预计11月7号猪就可以开始拍卖"},{"start":14008.673,"end":14037.693,"text":"11月7號嘛對不對這個事情的話我們的統一步調就是由我們的這個中央非洲豬瘟的防災中心來做應變因為這個包括了很多綜合的判斷那就就這個要由這個我們的中央災害應變中心所以是今天下午才會公佈嗎是是是我全部都要看這個中央災害應變中心那邊的那如果因為有很多這個有一些縣市已經說11月7號有一些縣市已經說11月7號豬隻就可以開始拍賣"},{"start":14038.573,"end":14061.912,"text":"是不是這樣子這個部分的話必須要澄清因為我們這次的這個禁令是透過動傳法的這樣的一個限制那因為這個是屬於甲類的這樣的一個傳染動物傳染性疾病那它會擴及的這個範圍很大那所以基本上才會成立中央災害應變中心來處理這樣的一個問題所以基本上是不是開放這個部分一定是由中央災害應變中心來做公佈跟宣示"},{"start":14063.053,"end":14085.859,"text":"那我想請教就是說如果就是按照原本的期程就是說11月7號如果啦如果還是按照原本的期程11月7號可以拍賣那原本在這個禁運的這當中有35萬頭至39萬頭的這些豬那一下子我不知道說到底要怎麼去消化或者是整個豬的價格會不會因此而崩盤"},{"start":14087.739,"end":14110.972,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上我們事實上有掌握到就是說在這個這個禁運的這個期間那事實上大概陳副委員所說的會有這樣的一個數量出來那所以我們也啟動了一些相關的這個機制比如說已經超過市場規格的這個豬的話優先進入屠宰場去做這樣的相關去化的這樣的處理那或者是收購那還有我們的這個"},{"start":14113.113,"end":14138.951,"text":"每天能夠屠宰的量從本來平均的一天大概2萬多頭可能會提高到3萬多頭的這個部分那但是我們也不希望一次能夠太多出來因為這樣子也會造成價格的這個崩跌還是必須要看市場的需求啦所以這個部分我們都有掌握然後也透過了跟一些這個肉品工協會的這樣的一個聯繫希望能夠達到穩定租價也穩定這個供需這樣的一個需求"},{"start":14139.991,"end":14162.181,"text":"我在這邊可能也要建議一下就是說在禁運這當中有35到39萬頭豬那有的可能又吃了十幾天那個豬的那個重量又變大了那當然這些豬農他們會希望趕快把它賣出去所以我希望就是說農業部這邊應該也要找通路商還有可能一些冷凍"},{"start":14163.021,"end":14191.715,"text":"就是可以先把這些比較重的這些豬應該可以先拍賣然後冷凍起來我覺得應該可以透過這樣的機制來處理是 謝謝委員我們有往這個方向再考慮跟處理好 那我希望說不要有這種讓豬農覺得說這個會有崩盤的這種狀況出現所以我希望農業部可能要即時即使如果有類似這樣的狀況真的要去協調通路商趕快把這個問題解決"},{"start":14197.559,"end":14211.328,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言請洪孟楷委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":14214.261,"end":14231.281,"text":"侯委員好部長好部長感謝今天召委特別排這樣的一個案件其實本席也都非常關注那我先請教一下資源循環推動法跟廢棄物清理法有已經5月的時候就公告說要修法了嘛那到目前為止半年的進度過去了是不是再update一下"},{"start":14231.761,"end":14250.092,"text":"什麼時候會來提出我們環境部的版本現在在行政院的院內在審議當中那我們是希望就是有共識啦希望這個會期就看能不能一兩個月但是因為那個法案逐條跨部會的還在審議當中所以我們希望盡快是不是11月底或是12月趕快送進來"},{"start":14251.574,"end":14266.695,"text":"11月底12月有信心可以出行政院應該有因為現在這個不管是院長或是總統都有說要加快這個速度因為其實本席也好或說我們這個很多大家其實都看的就是這兩個部分"},{"start":14267.617,"end":14287.918,"text":"廢棄物清理其實也有一些營建業一直叫苦連天講是說那相關的土方他也很想找合法的清道清理但是就沒有辦法有這個消化的量那其實某種程度上資源循環推動法跟廢棄物清理法一個是胡蘿蔔一個是棍子我們等於是說也有開放胡蘿蔔的空間但也有棍子更加強"},{"start":14289.232,"end":14296.489,"text":"越非法的越要加強來取締但是我們也要有提供管道來去做一個運作所以11月底"},{"start":14297.352,"end":14322.194,"text":"我們是希望因為本席也希望是說能夠在這個會議我們至少能夠拜託召委如果說真的有進來的話我們也可以來排案來討論共同來討論能夠延伸大家才能夠往前走我們會加快因為這陣子我們的負責的政委其實都在救災不然就重建所以我們也跑來跑去所以我們是期待是加快就是希望速度可以快一點"},{"start":14322.774,"end":14340.48,"text":"因為畢竟也已經半年了嘛從5月底的公告兩個月完了之後再去做修正收集資料再做修正到現在其實半年過去本席會期待那也希望部長能夠加速好不好 能夠push一下那另外再來拉回來就是剛剛也有很多委員就關心到廚餘的一個部分"},{"start":14342.36,"end":14369.072,"text":"2017年其實行政院那時候的環保署就有提出一個叫做多元化垃圾處理計畫5年的期程花了150億的公帑有中央有地方但當時會希望是說做不管是垃圾焚化爐的升級或者是深植能源廠的一個部分那其實這深植能源廠某種程度上也是一個方向就是資源回收再利用本席認同您剛剛講法就是說"},{"start":14370.412,"end":14394.9,"text":"廚餘它其實是飼料化 肥料化 能源化它是可利用的東西那只是我們現在沒有地方去放所以說我們就變成是要餵豬要等等的部分但最終的狀況我們期待是說把廚餘變成是能源 飼料或是堆肥那到目前為止你說2017年的這個多元化垃圾處理計畫也只有台中跟桃園兩座生殖能電廠在運作"},{"start":14396.44,"end":14404.394,"text":"那如果說我們接下來這次非洲豬瘟風波過去我們還是要面臨到處於怎麼樣來做有效的"},{"start":14406.335,"end":14429.84,"text":"處理運用來 部長好 報告委員因為我有聊因為那時候我沒有在行政團隊但是我有了解其實這個最大的問題是說當廚餘可以未租那個成本是很低的所以基本上就不會進到這個生殖能的一個體系裡面如果這一次大家有國人有這個決心或是社會有這個共識的話這個速度就會加快而且據我所知有些廠要設的時候廠長會變成零幣設施"},{"start":14431.44,"end":14450.533,"text":"大家喜歡跑去廚藝但是廚藝廠不要在我家旁邊所以這次我希望說因為我們一個縣市一個縣市有在溝通你們有沒有地方要做的我們來想辦法一起來公私協力來合作中央跟地方一起合作現在都有在談這個事情是 但當然是因為黎病社是一定會有它的一個困難點也因此通常這樣的一個"},{"start":14451.434,"end":14473.108,"text":"地點可能就要由地方政府來協助找可能相對人員稀少還有就是說有一些回饋機制可是我覺得重點還是在於是中央的計畫要出來當中央的計畫有出來願意要做這件事情因為其實我們在這一次廚餘的非洲豬瘟在爆發之後大家也都看到真的你說養豬使用廚餘的部分其實占不到10%"},{"start":14476.32,"end":14495.207,"text":"對不對養豬再用廚藝很高6成整個6成你說總體的6成就是豬大概8%而已豬吃廚藝就8%豬吃廚藝8%嘛8%吃掉我們台灣所有廚藝的6成但是本席也看到了這個有所謂的一個盤點"},{"start":14497.428,"end":14525.769,"text":"環境部這邊來做一個廚餘的盤點其實每天要處理的廚餘的數量其實還是有幾百公噸的一個缺口也因此才會要去做這個焚化那現在即便是依照過去的狀況都還有500噸那如果說在這一次過去之後大家也都有期待就是那我們能不能說往更前面邁進那就變成是說你每天至少有上千噸的廚餘其實是要處理的"},{"start":14526.209,"end":14546.446,"text":"那怎麼樣把這些資源循環再利用我覺得這就變成是說環境部就要有一個上位計畫出來跟地方政府來溝通那以及你要編列相關的預算來才有辦法做進一步的運行嘛對 現在就在做這個事情我們已經在跟地方政府在溝通因為每個地方政府都遇到廚藝去化的挑戰啦"},{"start":14546.986,"end":14564.678,"text":"有些縣市沒有問題有些縣市是挑戰所以我們現在就是說我們是不是到底要兩年或三年我們的廚餘去化可以得到一個更好的解決我們正在規劃當中也希望趕快對外公布部長什麼時候計畫可以出來因為現在還在因為其實這個廚餘的產生其實也跟人口數有息息相關對 一定是"},{"start":14565.959,"end":14579.342,"text":"人口數地方大都會一定相對產生的廚餘會比較多嘛這也沒有辦法這就是你要居住 你要食用你就會有這樣的一個狀況但我們要怎麼樣面對問題解決問題所以我以為這有兩個問題一個是我們的養豬場的廚餘什麼時候轉型一個是我們的這個量能什麼時候夠這兩邊是一個動態式"},{"start":14586.104,"end":14603.363,"text":"在處理 是那我們是希望未來是不是有一個落日的是一個時間但是這個時間我們的還沒有辦法馬上的去算出來因為這個算出來之後要去執行也需要地方來配合地方政府來配合所以我們現在都在研究在討論當中希望趕快可以有等於是說你自己目標會希望"},{"start":14604.904,"end":14629.625,"text":"我們是希望或許是年底之前有一個更好的一個方案出來但是這個還是要找到地方因為那個地方還是要設置設置還是要地方政府願意扛下來我們來一起合作來做是啦 部長但是本席現在提的因為你看明年環境部的預算已經編列了是是沒有把這個計畫放進來嗎沒有 沒有 這都新的東西對 所以說即便是你兩個月以內能夠有初步的草案計畫來找地方政府來溝通"},{"start":14630.706,"end":14650.975,"text":"那你也真的要落實或說真的要執行也可能要到後年以後你才有辦法用這樣的一個方案來去請地方政府共同配合但不管怎麼樣這一條路如果說確實要做的話該溝通的成本以及該要去做的部分總是要先起頭也因此你剛剛有提到今年年底可能這個方案可以出來然後再找地方政府來溝通"},{"start":14651.835,"end":14679.22,"text":"如果說有意願配合的部分可以再加速進行但是編列明年環境部的預算後年開始執行報告委員因為這個如果要設置現在很少有政府完全獨立出資一定會用一些促餐的一個方式來做處理那促餐的話我們政府負擔的費用就會少一點所以這個目前都在規劃當中那我們的當然是希望能夠多一點預算會比較好做 是會比較快所以這個部分到時候也希望委員可以支持"},{"start":14679.4,"end":14703.347,"text":"因為公部門要做事就兩件事嘛要嘛是單位誰負責要嘛就是預算有沒有編列嘛沒有單位誰負責沒有預算編列你跟我講要做都是假的是不是也因此本期才是從一開始2017年有一個五年計畫一直延伸到現在那是不是要再針對這個部分要再做另外一個不管是三年計畫五年計畫但你總是要把方案提出來大家才可以共同討論"},{"start":14704.467,"end":14712.313,"text":"本席會再針對這個問題來繼續救教好不好但我希望部長剛剛有提到就至少兩個月內要把方案給提出來我們會盡快 謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員發言請陳寅委員發言"},{"start":14731.578,"end":14755.655,"text":"謝主席麻煩請環境部部長跟環管署署長請部長跟署長陳委員好部長好那今天召委安排這個從非法棄置到城市採礦的這個專題報告我也參考了你們的書面報告因為我發現在這個短短八頁不到裡面大概"},{"start":14756.335,"end":14776.213,"text":"大概非法企制的部分占了9成那你们对于这个城市采矿的部分大概只有占了10%而已那我不太清楚说这个是不是赵伟的本意就是说在这个比例上你们怎么去决定这样子的"},{"start":14779.482,"end":14800.069,"text":"兩個其實是在討論兩件事有價值的回收資源跟沒有價值的廢棄物被非法棄置的問題鵝鮑偉我解釋一下因為我這邊有用一個其實我們非法棄置最大的就是營建剩餘土石方營建剩餘土石方如果更好的循環它也是一種城市採礦"},{"start":14801.149,"end":14818.994,"text":"所以其實我們這個裡面花很多時間其實有一張圖是特別講說它怎麼去循環到土地市場等等如果我們建構了起來就是城市採礦起來的話就沒有營建廢棄物的問題因為我們上網也是都可以看到這個書面報告所以只是提醒一下這個比例上我們會誤以為"},{"start":14821.615,"end":14841.588,"text":"是不是召委给你们的指示是这样那我要先请教部长就是说你是否知道在2020年的这个东京奥运的这个奖牌是由这个回收的手机制作的这是象征这个城市矿山的理念吗算是吧这也是一种这个循环在利用"},{"start":14842.213,"end":14868.07,"text":"好那針對這個有價台灣手機或者3C產品台灣回收的這個業者你覺得他們再生利用的技術好不好那回收之後最終產物是什麼最終產物的話手機回收就有不一樣的金屬來源例如說像有的是手機回收可以製作屋出來提煉出屋出來不一樣的不一樣的內容好那"},{"start":14868.942,"end":14887.11,"text":"就說舉例啦那個日本的回收技術其實應該是目前看起來是優於台灣嘛那還是說那回收過程有沒有產生這個污染或公安的問題不管是日本或者是台灣"},{"start":14888.334,"end":14905.641,"text":"我看过就是说我看过一些欧洲的一些垃圾或资源回收处理厂有爆炸的事情燃烧的事情我问他是什么手机手机里面的锂电池所以的确是有一些的确有一些可能衍生的公安问题会出现如果处理不好的话"},{"start":14906.854,"end":14926.841,"text":"我想部長有這樣提到表示你們基本上對於這些問題都有一些基本的掌握那上次對於這個光電板的回收那本席也曾經提過說如果國外有更先進的技術想要進來台灣投資往往是很困難因為他們要先取得這個廢棄物處理廠的資格"},{"start":14930.063,"end":14958.562,"text":"而這個廢棄物處理的是沒有價值或者是低價值的一般廢棄物那這等於是說去限制了這個先進技術可以直接高端回收的高價值資源的這個途徑是很可惜那我覺得說你們在的確是有很多的很多去國外考察先進資源回收的跟這個管理的觀念那重點是"},{"start":14960.117,"end":14986.882,"text":"在出國回來你們去看了回來就要整理好報告然後又趕快有動作然後再趕快把它轉化成有用的計畫或者是政策不應該只是說去看一看回來消息很消極就沒有其他作為這樣子會拘泥說你們可能會變成永遠都是在這個法規範圍內去做管理的事情"},{"start":14988.062,"end":15013.112,"text":"因為不是只有管理就好如果是這樣可能就是很辜負了你們升格為環境部的這個意義了部長你們在升格之後在資源循環跟環境管理方面的法令大概就是你們修訂了幾條還是說只是有都是繼續沿用環保署時代的訂定的法規"},{"start":15013.88,"end":15039.521,"text":"報告委我們如果兩個數的話就是資源循環的推動法然後另外一個就是費刑法這兩個就是我們這兩年來送進來準備要送進來的法令所以好那未來在這個高階3C的產品的資源回收跟這個城市採礦的理念上會不會有這個修法或者是研擬新法令的計畫呢"},{"start":15040.533,"end":15055.553,"text":"目前我們是在這個資源循環推動法裡面有一些設計綠色設計或是說整個獎勵補助的一個或是說資源循環的這個路徑上面能夠再加強的地方是在資源循環的推動法裡面的確是有"},{"start":15056.684,"end":15081.769,"text":"好 那畢竟就是在這個現有的法令架構之下其實召委都覺得說你們這個非法氣質跟這個環境管理的執法上都已經有出現這個痛點的問題這表示說相關的法令可能有不足的地方所以資源循環應該是可以再更有效率一點最重要的是說我們也還是要跟國際接軌那"},{"start":15085.427,"end":15106.213,"text":"部長您覺得就是說在之前啦過去你還沒有擔任部長之前曾經有多次出席在國際上的這些重要的這個環境議題的會議那代表國家發聲在維基百科上也都有詳細的介紹跟還有帥氣的照片謝謝"},{"start":15107.694,"end":15131.623,"text":"在我相信就是說台灣其實就需要像您這樣有具有國際觀的部會首長來帶領我們台灣在各種議題上能夠就是說在我們國際這個大舞台發光發熱那您現在當部長了我相信也可以讓所有就是說所屬的高階文官可以有一起進步的格局"},{"start":15132.483,"end":15159.189,"text":"那支持讓支持他們出國多去看利用這個開放新技術跟新資源的觀念來解決我們台灣面臨的這些環境的問題我想我不曉得部長是不是有同意本席的建議在提升我們資源循環跟環境管理的議題上盡量可以接軌國際然後採取這個逐步開放的這個有效的這個政策規劃"},{"start":15160.229,"end":15181.37,"text":"我非常同意也報告委員我在民間的時候是一個月出國一兩次現在一年頂多只能一次所以很可憐所以我是鼓勵我們同仁這個能夠多出去多接軌所以像剛剛委員提到說是不是有一些國外的這種好的公司到臺灣我們幫他排擠出這種環保的法規因為我們有些是蠻硬的蠻死的"},{"start":15181.73,"end":15200.787,"text":"所以我們未來也可以考慮說國外好的公司進來台灣的時候我們有一個專業的一個如果他是環保好的公司我們應該開放讓他進來產生這種碾漁的效益所以我們現在現行一些設計的這些規範可能就要做一些調整了不然就真的很可惜"},{"start":15201.247,"end":15228.713,"text":"那最後本席想要強調就是說資源循環做得好環境管理負擔少那其實那個意思也就是賴盈盈做得好顏旭敏負擔就少那我現在我就很想請教我想請教我們的我們的顏署長那個你覺得你現在負擔多還是少呢報告委員我覺得我現在負擔剛剛好"},{"start":15234.8,"end":15246.345,"text":"我相信你負擔還是很大的啦但是賴銀營署長還是做得不錯的啦至少起碼那個賴署長也很認真而且他也蠻"},{"start":15247.489,"end":15267.681,"text":"就是蠻靈活的 在福祉產業上其實剛剛我講的幾個點其實都有朝這個方向在在邁進 那我們知道你很辛苦因為一站上來我剛差一點看不到你的臉雖然你站在燈光下真的你去災區真的待很久然後曬得很黑也辛苦你了那這個"},{"start":15270.26,"end":15290.786,"text":"兩位賴署長可以請回座管理是一項成本資源強調的是一種價值所以任何的廢棄物都可以視為資源關鍵是說我們在於轉化的成本高低的問題廢手機"},{"start":15293.027,"end":15310.178,"text":"既然可以作为这个奥运奖牌很多的资源也可以转为这个扶植地方产业的这个经济支柱那我想在这个过程当中我有看到赖署长有在朝这个方向来努力我觉得那个是很棒的"},{"start":15310.785,"end":15336.155,"text":"那我想我們我之前我有提過就是說以台東縣為例本身就有這個獎勵投資相關產業的法規那在這個環境資源回收提供的技術跟物資的支持下如果協助台東的漁船或者這個觀光休閒娛樂船以免費或補助的這個加裝使用回收光電板讓這些船"},{"start":15338.596,"end":15353.153,"text":"可以獲得更多的電力資源然後轉化這個動力減少燒油產生的廢氣我相信有許多漁民跟在地的民眾也會感謝環境部的這個德政你們可以參考看看"},{"start":15353.813,"end":15382.244,"text":"委員 這個概念非常好我們會來研議一下就是如何用回收的然後幫助漁民那也跟委員報告因為我們最近有算出來一個臺灣的循環經濟的產值是1688億去年然後大概有10萬的就業人口那我們也發現說其實這個很適合例如說像臺東可以發展起來所以這個部分如果未來循環經濟我是覺得循環經濟跟觀光一樣是一個蠻好的一個產業我們可以一起努力來推動"},{"start":15383.365,"end":15392.598,"text":"但我想一個大前提就是說台東畢竟它還是一個觀光大縣那我們能夠賣的"},{"start":15394.013,"end":15417.847,"text":"是我們的自然景觀那這個大原則就是我們不要在我們在做一些就是說不管是資源的回收的再利用或者是一些能源上的開發我們都不應該去破壞那個自然景觀"},{"start":15418.567,"end":15433.849,"text":"我想這個是一個很重要的大前提那所以我相信只要部長支持那整個資源循環的產業可以主動扶持很多地方的這個產業的發展那這些需要你們了解回收技術跟回收產品的應用"},{"start":15434.81,"end":15452.397,"text":"那針對可以幫助地方產業的這個回收業者也期待你們可以給予更多的支持跟鼓勵我想這樣的呼籲環境部你們是不是能夠思考並且提出一個具體的規劃好沒問題好謝謝謝謝兩位謝謝謝謝陳寅委員發言來鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":15464.61,"end":15480.821,"text":"顏寬恆委員 顏寬恆委員 顏寬恆委員不在接著我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長楊委員好"},{"start":15486.71,"end":15513.063,"text":"是 部長好那我們今天來討論這個概念城市採礦城市採礦是指回收城市老舊建築物拆除後踢壓 擋 尖 岩等資源跟電子資訊產品中的西貴金屬讓整個資源它轉化成另外一個商品那由於我們呢 我國也缺"},{"start":15513.863,"end":15543.223,"text":"也非常的缺乏天然的礦產如果說可以從城市廢棄物當中可以獲得了很多的資源物資像手機的面板它含有稀有的金屬電腦的零件裡頭甚至還有黃金電腦零件裡頭以我國的製造業所需要的稀土礦物為例我們如果利用城市採礦它可以將稀土再提煉回來"},{"start":15544.924,"end":15561.62,"text":"但是城市採光目前它存在的還是有一些爭議相轉的可行性以及提煉純度跟它的設備能否到位還有化學處理可能會造成環境的衝擊跟你環評的門檻"},{"start":15563.662,"end":15577.898,"text":"所以目前政府本需要請教也就是針對於城市採礦的立場你的態度是什麼那你又認為對於環境的影響是正面還是負面有哪些 請做說明"},{"start":15578.539,"end":15601.857,"text":"謝謝委員 城市採礦應該有兩個意涵例如說我們現在在都更這個舊房子拆掉 很多的廢棄物如果沒有很好處理就亂倒亂丟 亂買所以這個部分如果處理的好有土質廠或分類廠或是廢棄物的處理廠它其實可以幫另外一棟建築做更好的運用那委員提到的是說一些貴金屬那個其實例如說從電腦或是各種的廢棄的舊的能夠再提煉出來"},{"start":15604.099,"end":15630.852,"text":"那目前的確它的過程當中有很多化學產生那的確是有一些問題但是問題是說我們現在我們看到新的公司它都很環保我們以前這個城市採礦像二人溪的這個電子飛機就是城市採礦可是造成我們這個到現在為止沒有辦法處理的問題所以我們現在要的不是那種是新型態的那目前有幾家的很好的公司它已經都上市了它也都符合各種新型態的環保法規我們是鼓勵這樣這種型的"},{"start":15632.797,"end":15660.727,"text":"這個就是本席一開頭運用了一分鐘多的時間來跟你說明這個背景因為我們也不希望會影響到這個環境的一個影響度但是目前全世界開始也有已經成功的範例所以如果我們可以結合這個整個規模化還有跟國際來合作這樣子的一個政策方向本席認為你們必須要去採"},{"start":15663.547,"end":15682.212,"text":"這個全世界各國有哪些成功的這樣子的範例因為我們一定是一個國際的國家所以這是非常重要可以等於也可以降低降低我們未來進口的這個礦產當然這是剛開始所以剛開始的時候我們整個制度"},{"start":15683.172,"end":15709.868,"text":"跟部件必須要完善那除了我們自己專家學者的一個探討本席也具體建議針對於全世界各國城市採礦的這個部分已經有成功案例的我們一定要多吸取這些寶貴的經驗將這些經驗納到我們台灣來是不是可行做一個好好的一個研討也就是本席所說的這個規模化這非常重要您的看法呢"},{"start":15710.208,"end":15725.864,"text":"我非常同意所以等於是說國際的接軌例如說我們看到最近美國跟日本簽了一個稀土的這個協議其實就把委員你說的內涵都有涵蓋在裡面我非常贊同委員的看法那你要去執行之我想全世界的寶貴的經驗我們趕快吸引進來那接下來"},{"start":15731.669,"end":15749.44,"text":"本席要跟你討論的因為上個禮拜國家氣候變遷在委員會第五次的委員會議當中您在會後也跟了記者說減碳不是只有中央政府的責任總統也說了未來要訂出縣市政府必須負擔的減碳額度"},{"start":15752.302,"end":15779.372,"text":"那環境部會積極跟地方來研議這個目標甚至是高溫或者是氣候的一個調適地方政府也應該要有目標所以本學要請教你要怎麼樣去訂定資是您訂嗎還是地方訂還是誰訂呢這個數額這個第一個第二個如何去協調跟地方如何來做溝通協調因為每個縣市的樣他也不一樣"},{"start":15782.202,"end":15797.632,"text":"謝謝委員這個是很多的委員提出因為我們這個花了一年多的時間訂了一個減碳目標他說不是只有中央做地方也要一起做所以很多委員提了所以總統就做的才是要我來規劃研究要跟地方要訂出地方可以達到的目標"},{"start":15798.212,"end":15823.251,"text":"那目前呢很多的地方像台中他都有定一些減碳的目標都非常的好那未來呢就是要落實查核甚至說未來假設我們有些減碳的一個政府的計畫性補助的計畫我們就可以進行這個連結做的好的可以補助更多我們就獎勵所以這個目前在研議當中你目前研議當中那你有沒有這個方向你的KPI大概是多久會跟地方的縣市政府去研議"},{"start":15824.691,"end":15851.418,"text":"出来这个方向什么时候可以给国人报告应该是要到明年因为现在这个第一个是采化粉分了之后这些的工作所以你刚才说了就是明年你们预估会跟就这段时间跟地方政府来讨论那大概是在明年会定出各县市政府他的额度到底是多少如何的去协助地方政府是不是是没错谢谢"},{"start":15854.735,"end":15875.604,"text":"謝謝楊純英委員發言何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席主席請教彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":15878.932,"end":15888.217,"text":"楊委員好 部長我們今天還是要探討一下廢棄物清運業者跑空單的問題不過先講齁 就是我剛剛聽"},{"start":15889.625,"end":15908.376,"text":"您在答覆楊瓊瑩委員的時候講了一句台中市做得很好我覺得態度就是應該這樣子中央跟地方其實是一個合作的關係有不足的我們就把資源給那做不好當然"},{"start":15909.196,"end":15936.859,"text":"為了責任的釐清我們必須要講出來責任歸屬是地方而地方做得好的部分其實我倒是剛剛在座位聽到部長這樣子回答我覺得很好政治就應該這樣子就是我剛剛有講我們要探討跑空單的問題就是說合法的"},{"start":15939.756,"end":15966.055,"text":"車輛在載運廢棄物的時候有裝有GPS然後呢他這件事情大概就是有GPS的車輛照跑然後沒有載運是不是就是把GPS放在摩托車上面摩托車跑進去車子跑到別的地方去是這樣子啊有這樣的案例"},{"start":15968.959,"end":15993.516,"text":"那我問一下 摩托車跑進去對置場 這個查不出來嗎我們有發現 有發現這樣多久才發現因為假如是都是一般的卡車可能會有的時候會比較不注意那假如是像機車這種應該很容易發現"},{"start":15995.957,"end":16021.676,"text":"對就是說有跟委員報告其實未來我們未來要結合CCTV整個全台灣的CCTV跟GPS還有e-tag整個要合在一起變成為了這個事情因為這個警政單位是抓犯人那我們是抓非法棄置所以我們現在明年開始就要來做這個事情不是我剛才是問說他假如是用機車多久可以你們多久會發現這種違規"},{"start":16025.511,"end":16039.107,"text":"這個我們很會抓的組長因為這個事情還蠻離譜的我以為都是卡車進出可能比較沒有那麼容易發現那假如也有機車的情況應該是很快發現才對"},{"start":16040.268,"end":16068.243,"text":"是保護員其實他有很多種樣態有汽車也有汽車然後甚至也有是那種叫做我們我們會把它叫做小蜜蜂所以其實很多樣態但是我們大概都有抓過都有抓過對我現在的意思是說假如他是卡車對卡車卡車進出對置場是比較合理對不對那"},{"start":16070.611,"end":16098.081,"text":"摩托車這樣子不會很容易發現嗎包委員我們在抓這個犯罪行為的時候大部分都是從他們場內自行的監控系統或從內外帳這邊查到的如果要實質我們自己去查可能不是很容易我現在不是說你們查譬如說這個部分是堆置場的人查嗎還是地方政府查"},{"start":16099.946,"end":16120.982,"text":"不是你們查那誰查主要是因為我們現在大概都是透過檢檢環聯合查緝的平台才能夠查到這種違規行為所以就是不是常態性的監控可以看出來的必須要聯合稽查的時候將來如果自衛委員會建廠的時候就比較有機會"},{"start":16123.543,"end":16144.85,"text":"我有聽同仁跟我報告過就是說他們是有同仁會用AI的方式去算撈出來但是那個都要人 都需要時間都是要人工現在他們是希望現在有在加快把導入AI之後有加快我們希望把它加快而且未來如果明年開始有這個計畫的話更無縫接軌抓的速度會更快剛剛有回答說"},{"start":16146.98,"end":16172.959,"text":"假如AI智慧維尼系統建置以後就比較容易抓到對不對那現在我們已經有建置在2023年就建置11處那這一次發生事件的新北跟桃園有已經建置了嗎11處有沒有在這兩個"},{"start":16174.651,"end":16177.863,"text":"這一次新北那個應該是三年前的事"},{"start":16179.236,"end":16207.938,"text":"就是還沒有建置之前 對…但是實際上因為它我們有很多判斷的依據就是那個地方為什麼進出比較平凡或者是奇怪我們就會去看剛才組長特別提到我們進去看的時候整個進去會整個把它扣押函它的所有攝影機我們再把它回溯去調查這件事情才發現有的是車子 有的是機車等"},{"start":16209.219,"end":16220.637,"text":"所以有一些案例其實是三年前的那回算三年前就是我們AI智慧維理還沒有設置完成是 目前的智慧維理"},{"start":16223.372,"end":16247.452,"text":"這個講也沒有關係大概是在比較中南部不方便講的就不要講現在大概以中南部的建制比較早一點不過我看資料我們在明年大概會花23.5億來明年大概5億23.5億是4年是總TOTAL"},{"start":16250.194,"end":16274.967,"text":"那所以 並不是明年就可以建置完全台灣並不是 但是明年開始我們廢墟清理法裡面第十條之一有把這個我們可以將警政系統及其他交通部的e-tag整合進來其實那個量也瞬間會是很大的可以整合進來是不是那我這裡剛好有一個疑問就是"},{"start":16277.714,"end":16284.389,"text":"署長剛剛講的是整合嘛我問一下為什麼沒有辦法利用它現有的"},{"start":16285.262,"end":16308.597,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎因為整個公路體系應該都有ETEC跟車牌辨識的系統為什麼我們沒有辦法直接現在是因為個資法的關係所以個資法如果我們要運用的話就要有法令的依據所以我們在修廢清法的時候就把這個我們可以去用這一些資料把它修到裡面來"},{"start":16309.998,"end":16315.412,"text":"我們以後還是可以用公路體系的資料可是他"},{"start":16316.806,"end":16345.017,"text":"他監控的範圍跟角度跟我們不一樣是不是這樣子所以我們才要另外花錢嘛要不然我們就利用他現有的嘛是這樣子嗎大家功能不同的教他比對我們會發展一個AI的智慧判試的一個邏輯出來好 時間的關係我最後問一個因為手機齁我直接問署長"},{"start":16349.493,"end":16371.06,"text":"問部長 環境部在什麼時候提出手機回收的獎勵金跟擴大回收管道就是要公告的話應該是明年開始有要求他們循環率要15%所以獎金的制度是明年才開始"},{"start":16371.38,"end":16380.27,"text":"不過這個部分不一定有獎金我們是規定回收那如果是要回收或許業者他會提供一些回饋為什麼這麼重視這個問題呢就是因為我們的回收率真的太低了12%而已嘛"},{"start":16389.591,"end":16410.257,"text":"是不是 對百分之十二就是表示每一年我們假如說銷售五百萬部手機就有大概有三百八十萬支手機是沒有回收在利用因為是這樣子 有回收"},{"start":16411.377,"end":16431.854,"text":"才有再利用的可能而且手機再利用的價值跟各面向都是很重要的事情所以我想這個也是為什麼今天特別必須要提出要討論城市採礦的問題我們"},{"start":16439.62,"end":16450.861,"text":"我們不要把可以採的礦 讓它丟掉這個我想是部裡面的責任 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊耀文委員發言"},{"start":16452.979,"end":16474.49,"text":"謝謝部長 鍾嘉賓委員 鍾嘉賓委員 鍾嘉賓委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在那本日會議詢答全部結束"},{"start":16475.598,"end":16494.279,"text":"委員盧憲一所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定"},{"start":16495.56,"end":16513.531,"text":"專題報告議程到此結束現在休息下午2點在本會議室進行噪音管制法第二條26條及第28條條文修正草案計12案之逐條討論非法案相關列席人員可先行離席現在休息 謝謝"},{"start":16526.715,"end":16534.377,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":19864.123,"end":19886.176,"text":"來現在繼續開會首先介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭資委員盧憲一委員林月琴委員王振旭委員張志倫委員牛許廷委員"},{"start":19889.204,"end":19915.793,"text":"還有列席官員有我們環境部部長彭啟明部長大氣環境司司長黃偉明司長交通部公共運輸及監理司檢任計政蔡清風公路局監理組副組長黃明生經濟部標準檢驗局檢任計政陳榮富產業發展署科長陳慶輝"},{"start":19918.516,"end":19934.526,"text":"內政部警政署交通組副組長黃毅三法務部法治司副司長林黛麗那請議事人員宣讀本次新增提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":19937.185,"end":19961.312,"text":"噪音管制法第二條第26條及第28條條文修正草案委員賴銳龍等16人委員陳亭飛等16人委員張志倫等17人委員王玉敏等24人台灣民眾黨黨團委員黃健廷等19人委員牛許廷等25人委員羅明采等20人委員羅廷威等17人委員林倩琦等16人委員侯孟凱等16人委員廖偉祥等16人現行法條文對照表"},{"start":19962.54,"end":19992.22,"text":"委員牛許廷等二十五人 委員廖偉祥等十六人提案第二條修正第二句為在中央為環境部予以現行法同第二十六條委員賴瑞榮等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上一萬元一萬五千元以下增列第二項及第三項如下前項機動車輛所有人完成改善後五年內在違反第十一條第一項鎖定標準者其罰還加重二分之一三次以上者加重一倍"},{"start":19992.76,"end":20012.25,"text":"夜間違反第一項者其罰還加重二分之一並當場禁止駕駛予以現行法同委員陳廷飛等16人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣2400元以上7200元以下並修正莫具為案次處加重二分之一罰還予以現行法同"},{"start":20012.93,"end":20035.327,"text":"委員張志倫等17人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣6千元以上3萬元以下增列第二項如下前項累犯情節嚴重者比照交通違規據點違規據點達一定點數應移送監理機關調控花壺銷牌照據點辦法由主管機關會同交通部定之予以現行法同"},{"start":20036.067,"end":20053.048,"text":"委員王玉明等24人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣3600元以上18000元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於夜間或特定噪音管制區發生者得加重其罰還至二分之一予以現行法同"},{"start":20054.329,"end":20071.933,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上三萬元以下增列第二項如下於深夜或特定噪音管制區違反前項者加重罰還至新台幣六千元以上六萬元以下並得當場一致保管該機動車輛予以現行罰同"},{"start":20074.514,"end":20090.471,"text":"委員黃建豪等19人抵押修正第一項罰款金額為新台幣6千元以上1萬2千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者因移送監理機關調扣其駕駛執照6個月予以現行法同"},{"start":20091.452,"end":20105.26,"text":"委員牛許廷等25人提案修正第一項文字罰還逗號後面之文字為並責令其於7日內改善完畢藉其仍未完成改善者處新台幣3600元以上7200元以下罰還處應案次處罰外"},{"start":20109.342,"end":20137.376,"text":"並得以請公路監理機關註銷其牌照增列第二項如下三年內二次違反前項規定者應命其接受二小時環境講習三年內違反前項規定三次以上者應命其接受四小時以上十小時以下環境講習並以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月及公布其姓名照片及違法事實予以現行法同委員羅明才等二十人提案"},{"start":20137.896,"end":20152.474,"text":"修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千六百元以上三萬六千元以下增列第二項如下前項清新於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月予以現行法同"},{"start":20154.269,"end":20179.448,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案修正第二項第二據為於一年內違反二次者予以委員羅明才等20人提案同委員林倩琦等16人提案第一項據莫增列逗號並得調後其汽車牌照增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者調扣其駕駛執照6個月予以委員羅明才等20人提案同"},{"start":20180.508,"end":20207.753,"text":"委員洪孟開等16人提案第一項後段如下藉其仍未完成改善者除案次處罰外並得調扣其汽車牌照予以臺灣民眾黨黨團第一項提案同增列第二項及第三項如下予業間或噪音管制區違反前項者得加重其罰還至二分之一第一項情形於一年內違反二次者調扣其駕駛執照一年駕駛執照一年予以現行法同"},{"start":20208.493,"end":20225.795,"text":"委員廖偉祥等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上二萬元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於夜間或特定或特定噪音管制區發生者得加重其罰還至二分之一予以現行罰同"},{"start":20226.596,"end":20248.664,"text":"第二十八條委員賴瑞龍等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下予以現行法同委員陳廷飛等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣一萬元以上十萬元以下及修正據莫莫具為按次處加重二分之一罰還予以現行法同"},{"start":20249.725,"end":20261.818,"text":"委員張志倫等17人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣6,000元以上3萬元以下增列第二項如下前項累犯情節嚴重者比照交通違規據點違規據點達一定點數應移送監理機關調扣刮鬍銷牌照"},{"start":20269.086,"end":20285.812,"text":"祭典办法由主管机关会同交通部定之予以现行法同委员王玉明等24人提案修正罚还金额为新台币6000元以上36000元以下予以现行法同台湾民众党党团提案修正罚还金额为"},{"start":20286.232,"end":20307.028,"text":"新台幣六千元以上六萬元以下予以現行法同委員黃建豪等十九人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣六千元以上一萬二千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者因移送監理機關調扣其駕駛執照六個月予以現行法同"},{"start":20307.888,"end":20324.956,"text":"委員羅明財等二十人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千六百元以上三萬六千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月予以先行法同"},{"start":20325.896,"end":20351.076,"text":"委員羅廷輝等17人提案第一項與委員羅明才等20人提案第一項同 增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內違反二次者得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照6個月委員林倩琦等16人提案第一項與委員羅明才等20人提案第一項同 增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者調扣其駕駛執照6個月"},{"start":20352.637,"end":20379.068,"text":"委員侯孟開等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上三萬元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內違反二次者調扣其駕駛執照一年予以現行法同委員廖偉祥等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上二萬元以下予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案"},{"start":20382.54,"end":20405.571,"text":"第二條修正第二句為在中央為環境部予以現行法同第二十六條第一項倒數第二句前面為逗號與委員羅明采等二十人提案同第二十八條與委員羅明采等二十人提案第一項同提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴王振旭宣讀完畢"},{"start":20408.823,"end":20430.458,"text":"好那本次在交付之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答那現在進行噪音管制法第二條26條及28條條文修正草案等12案之逐條討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見"},{"start":20433.62,"end":20435.944,"text":"剛剛還有一個徐文東一還沒有唸徐文東一另外一個"},{"start":20441.57,"end":20467.006,"text":"修正動議二第26條違反依第11條第一項鎖定標準者除民用航空器以民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人新台幣3600元以上36000元以下罰還並責令其於15日內改善完畢藉其仍未完成改善者除按次處罰外並應以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照"},{"start":20467.606,"end":20487.004,"text":"是改善完畢後發還於其二個月以上者註銷其牌照 前項情形於一年內再度違反者 應以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月並公布其姓名照片及違法事實提案委員盧憲一委員 陳昭姿委員 廖偉祥委員 牛許廷委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":20494.226,"end":20523.546,"text":"好那現在進行噪音管制法第二條條文審查委員提案的部分有牛許廷委員廖偉祥委員等提案先請還有修正動議一呃劉建國劉建國委員及林月琴委員王振旭委員好那先請環境部說明再請委員發言好謝謝委員這個沒有意見本部沒有意見遵照辦理委員有意見嗎沒有好"},{"start":20524.178,"end":20547.081,"text":"那就照委員牛許廷等25人及廖偉祥等16人提案通過現在進行噪音管制法第26條條文的審查委員提案的部分有台灣民眾黨黨團以及牛許廷委員等25人還有廖偉祥委員等16人以及修正動議"},{"start":20548.682,"end":20575.662,"text":"劉建國委員 林月琴委員 王振旭委員以及修正動議二 牛許廷委員等四人還有盧憲宜委員等四人所提修正動議那先請環境部說明再請委員發言好 謝謝主席本部針對委員的提案都表尊重而且加重罰刑的確是有必要可以嚇阻這個噪音的人所以本部遵照辦理那細節我們請市長來說明"},{"start":20580.803,"end":20598.809,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個26條的修正條文我們是建議在第一項的部分有關划船的部分建議修正就是新台幣3600元以上到36000元以下的划船在第一項的部分有關划船的部分"},{"start":20599.569,"end":20615.274,"text":"那在第二項的部分增列就是前項情形於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月那藉這兩個方式來處理好 請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":20617.362,"end":20634.773,"text":"我想是這樣子 就是罪行還是要相當那行政單位認為這個是可以扣牌的我覺得相較於闖紅燈闖紅燈現在是祭典 對不對無照駕駛才有扣照"},{"start":20641.618,"end":20669.696,"text":"那噪音當然是一件很嚴重的問題可是它的嚴重性有沒有到應該要扣牌這個我覺得行政機關對於一些法案可能要仔細想一想就是說相對應的罪必須要有相當的刑這個是一個很重要的概念"},{"start":20670.516,"end":20696.818,"text":"假如說闖紅燈都是祭典那為什麼噪音兩次你要扣照懂我的意思嗎我是覺得這個可能大家討論一下那我站在罪行相當原則的立場我覺得這個處罰太重並不是表示我不贊成"},{"start":20698.499,"end":20727.717,"text":"管制噪音跟取締噪音好 謝謝好 林月琴委員有意見要發表因為現行罰款對明知故犯者效果有限所以常見回檢過關後又再改回來所以是不是應該事實上如果是累犯應該當場扣測然後強制他到案檢驗跟教育倒不是扣牌是說希望他能夠有一些配套的你不是說"},{"start":20728.677,"end":20748.978,"text":"最後就扣牌那當然他最後都不能騎可是剛剛楊耀偉也講說那這樣子好像事實上是跟的確我們無照駕駛我們現在是希望也是用扣車的角度已經通過了可是現在我認為這部分可不可以考慮一下是說扣車然後他如果接受教育之後違規祭典彩祭累祭然後"},{"start":20749.537,"end":20762.005,"text":"後面再如果他接受這個因為我們是針對雷犯否則的話他持續啊否則你去檢驗完他之後還是持續去改裝結果最後效果非常有限以上請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":20769.971,"end":20796.8,"text":"謝謝主席因為我們黨的黨團的民眾黨團提案有提到說當場一致保管該機動的車輛本來就是因為介於這個機動車輛的這個公害陳情現在的量非常的龐大幾乎佔了整個所有的公害陳情大概三成以上然後那個尤其大都會跟包括還有台中雙北台中是情況是特別嚴重那因為政府現在是抓"},{"start":20797.984,"end":20817.992,"text":"抓草不抓改过去因为机车是有一段时间是有一年的缓冲期而且是免费帮他做一些认证就是你可以去改装但是给你一年的时间但是要做这个所谓的认证跟这个检测跟认证但是汽车没有就我们发现现在反而汽车这个问题会比较大"},{"start":20818.872,"end":20840.821,"text":"那因為過去顯然就是說這個大家都同意要加重這個罰則因為目前還是報應車炸機車還是就會在白天也會聽得到所以我們才提出第26條修正的方向是跟所有委員大概提出來是一樣那剛剛也聽到幾位委員的看法我們本來寫的是當場一致保管該機動的車輛"},{"start":20843.142,"end":20856.908,"text":"當然有人說要不要吊牌子這一點我想我就尊重我們黨團不會特別堅持我們尊重大家整體的這個討論我們也覺得說尤其是再犯的部分但是會不會不符比例這個我們也可以接受這樣的討論好謝謝好謝謝陳昭資委員發言好請王振旭委員"},{"start":20866.957,"end":20889.235,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想剛剛趙思維有提到這個原來民眾黨提案裡面有當場一致我先說明一下我住在小巨蛋附近那個之前因為那個路很寬很大所以常常有很大的噪音不管是機車或者是汽車可是最近一年來發現的確改善很多"},{"start":20890.135,"end":20917.728,"text":"真的謝謝環境部的努力讓我們的居民在生活上的確有很大的改善可是我們當然是希望他更好所以這些修正動議包括剛劉建國委員還有我跟林耀勳委員一起有提一個修正動議在這部分有關連髮緩還有或許的處理性也很謝謝我們住管機關這邊的支持我們相信這是一個好的方式如果說要當場一致的話我相信這個困難度相對是比較高"},{"start":20918.508,"end":20938.977,"text":"所以也許可以請主管機關這邊來說明看看如果真的要這樣做的話會面臨什麼樣的困擾等一下也許牛許廷委員會提到有關於如何能夠再增加第一項跟第二項之間的連結我比較擔心就是說這兩個連結之間扣合的時候會不會有什麼衝突的地方"},{"start":20939.517,"end":20958.592,"text":"因為你要跟第一項跟第二項之間會不會有辦法能夠順利包括兩個月還有半年之間萬一有什麼執行上有困難的時候那應該要執行一或者是執行二以上謝謝好 紐許庭委員張志倫委員"},{"start":20960.761,"end":20989.48,"text":"好谢谢主席我想今天讨论这个有关于噪音防治的一个部分非常重要因为现在大家知道都会区的这个上班族非常辛苦很多民众回家可以休息的时候可是想没有想到三更半夜那外面街道传来这种飙车或者是改装车的这个声音让很多民众受不了所以我想今天修改这第26条原因就是希望说可以让辛苦的环保局的同仁跟警察同仁"},{"start":20990.16,"end":21017.999,"text":"可以有一个更好的一个执法的一个工具所以当然我们是希望说罚还可以增加那至于说刚刚很多委员提论到其实刚刚主管机关也特别强调说其实是有要考虑这个跳扣期驾照的一个部分我想这个部分大家都是可以来讨论想出一个可以让执法机关在执法过程中可以更好的来执法更好的来嚇阻这样的情形我相信我们都是可以来讨论的谢谢"},{"start":21020.105,"end":21040.419,"text":"謝謝請牛許庭委員發言謝謝主席這我們的修正動議是應該是各個版本裡面最兇殘的啦但是我覺得那個噪音車的那種平常對我們市民朋友的兇殘程度也應該付出相應的代價我簡單說明一下我們第一個當然罰環的部分我覺得環境部非常有誠意啊三萬六當然法律越重越好嘛"},{"start":21040.999,"end":21059.86,"text":"第二個我們是有加一個15日內改善完畢啦回用15日的原因是因為我們前一陣子修正道交條例嘛道交條例在討論噪音車重新萬一沒有用驗證的排氣管回去檢查的時候也是用15天為當作一個基準啦所以看法律上要不要其一啦那第三跟第四部分是講扣牌我對扣牌我是覺得要有堅持啦"},{"start":21060.28,"end":21081.981,"text":"因為雖然這樣講可能有點太武斷但是很多會搞噪音車或什麼的他大概也是很有錢大概也是罰不怕啦之前我們在基層去問執法狀況的時候也常常講說他就給你罰嘛罰單當交保護費然後就繼續搞所以我是覺得沒有到扣牌的程度大概難以有效嚇阻那我們是希望說這個跟盜交條例可以形成雙保險"},{"start":21083.002,"end":21104.461,"text":"不管你是沒有用這個環境部認證的排氣管或者是你的噪音就是時序的超標而且你沒有辦法有一個改善機制的時候你當然就應該會祭出最嚴重的手段所以就有我們的修正動議大概邏輯上是這樣那具體來講怎麼樣去找到一個大家的平衡點我們就聽一聽大家的意見 以上好 那是不是請行政單位回應一下"},{"start":21105.715,"end":21131.687,"text":"向各位委員報告有關剛才委員垂詢的特別是汽車的移置的部分因為噪音的當場如果當場發生噪音源的時候其實我們除了量測以外一般是用聲音照相去量測可是量測完以後因為噪音本身我們要排除背景噪音還有其他的噪音源干擾等等才能夠確定還要經過判斷以後才能確定是不是這輛車造成的"},{"start":21132.527,"end":21140.496,"text":"這樣的處分才會 才經得起檢驗所以這樣的一個情況下是比較困難在當場就能夠扣車"},{"start":21142.168,"end":21163.433,"text":"因為假設你的處分不像酒測直接量一個結果用行為人直接就可以了解噪音車的部分可能會有困難我們以往都要花一段時間回來判別環保局都要花一段時間判別到底這個噪音源是不是這輛車排的這個跟各位委員報告會有這樣的一個困難"},{"start":21164.293,"end":21189.79,"text":"另外一个假设真的有一致的话就是需要一致这些车辆的话保管期限保管费用还有这辆车辆将来的如果有受损的话等等这个可能也要考虑的确在过去我们的环保法规里面目前只有废青法有类似的条文其他法规是没有这样的一个条文所以如果有这样的一个精神在的话也许我们"},{"start":21190.831,"end":21211.922,"text":"以後需要搭配的配套的執法或這個也需要再做考慮以剛才跟各位報告的廢清法廢清法在他的母法裡面第9條跟第10條如果你要扣他的這些清除機具處理設施的話都還要再訂相關的規定還有機具另外也有規定他的這個"},{"start":21214.524,"end":21230.052,"text":"扣留的時間要以一年為限等等類似這樣的一個規定這個是有關一致車輛的部分的報告另外一個就是有關扣車的部分剛才牛委員這邊有提到就是"},{"start":21231.172,"end":21255.35,"text":"改善前另期15日改善完畢因為噪音的發生的來源在各縣市的情況的處理情況可能會不太一樣特別是你要回頭再做改善的話是要回到各環保局裡面重新做檢測每個環保局的量能也不太一樣所以15日有可能有些環保局可能會有或者是"},{"start":21258.412,"end":21280.304,"text":"這個行為人可能也會有因為他必須在禮拜一到禮拜五的上班時間來做那牛委員提的這案子當然加重處罰對於減少噪音應該是有幫助不過因為第一次第一次違反噪音管制標準就需要來扣他的牌照"},{"start":21282.129,"end":21293.873,"text":"會不會比較嚴重如果剛好那一個車子不是改裝摩托車而是他剛好是他的身材工具那會不會讓他就兩個月不能夠這個會不會"},{"start":21297.062,"end":21319.845,"text":"比較嚴重因為有些我們回頭檢視跟各位報告就是我們大概處分去年一年處分噪音法移動車輛處分大概5000多件檢舉有3萬多件 處分5000多件重複發生的以台北市而言大概300件就300件 其他的都是一次"},{"start":21320.711,"end":21348.853,"text":"那如果說一次的就要扣會不會因為有時候因為噪音的發聲不見得是改裝有可能是駕駛習慣的不好或者是某一些因素造成那有可能是車輛老舊等等那所以這些因素加總以後違反了噪音管制標準是不是要第一次就這麼嚴格也提供各位委員參考對 我知道"},{"start":21352.008,"end":21355.152,"text":"好謝謝那有沒有有沒有什麼意見那那個牛委員請問剛剛的回應你們什麼意見"},{"start":21364.966,"end":21393.382,"text":"我們一段一段來好不好我覺得反正三千六 三萬六大家應該都沒有意見嘛沒問題 對對啊 這一段我們就這樣沒錯 沒錯現在就是後面的加重的部分我請教一下環境部啦因為你剛剛有講一個檢驗量能不足的問題那實務上來講你覺得幾天合適啦然後我們用什麼樣的方式讓它有一定的拘束力我們可以從這個方向做討論嗎因為過去我們的那個時間是由各環保局以他們實際狀況來掀起改善所以並沒有定一個明確約保留一個彈性保留彈性 那"},{"start":21395.239,"end":21414.102,"text":"因為不單單是環保局要有量能因為發生違反這個的行為人他自己本身也要去做這樣的一個所以是不是因為噪音法本身相關的環保法規對於限期改善最高都是不超過90字不超過90字但也許我們不用到90字還是可以"},{"start":21415.37,"end":21443.84,"text":"比照原來的那種精神限期改善讓環保局去通知來做處理那扣牌的部分你有沒有什麼具體的建議如果講說後面第三點我剛剛講第三點跟第四點的部分因為跟委員報告因為第二項的部分一年內違反兩次就調扣這個牌照六個月是已經是過去沒有的那這樣的一個情況其實對照其他環保法規來講其他環保法規以情節重大"},{"start":21445.575,"end":21463.603,"text":"都是兩次或兩次以上才會去做這樣的動作所以吊扣牌照基本上我們自己初步評估他很偏向情節重大以後的處遇方式如果說第一次就直接處理太兇了我認為溯源的情況會很多"},{"start":21473.428,"end":21501.724,"text":"對啊 那你們具體的意見是什麼我們建議是這樣子因為在處以滑反3000到36000以後我們在我們後續應該要訂定的違反噪音管制法違反噪音管制法案件裁罰基準上面我們來做一些設計讓它處的滑反可以依照它違反的樣態來加重處理在第一次是用滑反線來做處理"},{"start":21502.364,"end":21511.035,"text":"那如果說他是累犯就是一年發生兩次的我們再進入第二項來讓他調扣他的牌照六個月的方式"},{"start":21515.953,"end":21542.846,"text":"等一下 你剛剛講後面那段你再補充說明一下是 就是我們第一個我們先把我們的滑船的部分變成3600到3600這沒有問題 這個我已經講好了嘛然後這個以後呢如果說我們後續的設計因為我們還要調整我們原來的執法就是違反噪音管制法案件裁罰基準這個基準可以依照它的違反樣態我們來加重它的那個滑船的處分的這個情況"},{"start":21544.793,"end":21571.975,"text":"那不要暫時第一次不要去調扣他的這個牌照兩個月也就是說他意思說現在他說三萬多件嘛然後五千多件是處分的那有不同的樣態發生那你們現在還沒有辦法很明確的去定義他所以你也不能直接說要很嚴格因為你說要從執法裡面再去分類是不是他如果真的違反我們可以從他的樣態去決定他要罰"},{"start":21572.728,"end":21588.583,"text":"再給他彈性多少錢的這個方式處理但是如果說一違法就調扣兩個月可能也會跟楊耀委員剛才所提的罪行相當的這個部分因為其他的法規其實還沒有到這麼嚴格"},{"start":21594.096,"end":21609.126,"text":"主席那個主席主席林月晴委員有話說林月晴委員發言今天江部也有來因為剛剛楊耀委員提的這江部可不可以說明一下跟你其他的因為我覺得法跟法之間還不能落差到太大是江部也做一下說明"},{"start":21613.992,"end":21641.04,"text":"交通部做說明依照處罰條例的話吊扣牌照跟吊扣交道確實是屬於比較重的處罰大概現在一般的話都是重罰所以要吊而且又吊扣牌照六個月這在處罰條例裡面除了註銷以外算是次重的罰則以上這樣好不好因為我們這樣子我是希望"},{"start":21642.812,"end":21652.14,"text":"時間的部分還是要有所保留你們剛剛有講說一定會開限期改善那我們就把15日改成並則令限期改善對不對 這樣應該是OK你們限期改善最多是90天"},{"start":21654.332,"end":21681.314,"text":"環保法規是90天嘛就不超過90天所以一定不會超過90天嘛好 但我覺得如果已經從15天放寬到90天我擔心這樣嚇阻力道就下降所以我還是希望後面的這個未完成改善者除暗示處罰外我給你一個空間啦就併得疑請公路機關吊扣牌照嘛避免惡行重大嘛你如果一直都不配合吹了好幾次都不來 對不對那我就要記重點我要保留你這樣子執法的空間嘛然後自改善完畢後發還嘛"},{"start":21682.595,"end":21698.617,"text":"如果大家覺得說我一次要連兩個月註銷條款這樣下去太兇悍的話就寫到這裡然後其他一年內再度違反者得引起移請公路機關給你一定的空間來做裁量但保留了最後兇殘的裁量處理權限請問環境部可不可以接受"},{"start":21704.486,"end":21723.8,"text":"基本上委員剛才所提的這個應該是有助於噪音的改善不過就是第一次就有保留這個空間來做這個吊扣牌照的部分會不會跟其他的法規比起來的確是比較嚴重因為有些人是真的是惡意的有些可能是"},{"start":21726.318,"end":21753.328,"text":"先針對剛剛牛委員的他剛剛是有說通知限期改善這個也沒問題啦好 我們就改成限期改善嘛這本來上面是 請大家看一下本來是沒寫啦 是吧 沒寫對不對有有有 並通知限期改善這就通知限期改善嘛 對對 責令限期改善 一樣意思然後未完成者按次處罰那現在的差別就是說第一次是不是就可以得移請公路監理機關這個啦對 我講的也不是說他第一次就移請嘛是第一次是一定要檢驗嘛我講的是"},{"start":21755.81,"end":21761.196,"text":"我覺得我講的是德就是說你如果覺得可以移情就是惡行重大的狀況你可以直接處理"},{"start":21767.606,"end":21792.307,"text":"對啊 而且前面有借其未完成改善者我才扣牌也就是說抓到不管是測數環監警聯合稽查抓到之後他違規我開一張罰單叫他限期改善而且限期改善是90天90天內沒有完成改善你就要開第二張罰單但是我就怕只有開罰單罰不夠所以我才講除案次處罰外得疑警公路監理機關調扣及牌照自改善完畢後發還先這樣"},{"start":21795.185,"end":21806.25,"text":"也就是說他90天都不配合很糟糕你當然可以而且你只是移情而已對不對要判還是公路機關來判而且我們本來在盜交裡面就是15天裡面就要做處理啦所以我覺得這應該相對來講比較沒有問題請問環境部這樣OK嗎"},{"start":21816.514,"end":21837.939,"text":"不過 不好意思 我也要問如果剛剛那個牛齊廷委員講的會不會這裁量權大到有些縣市會沒有有些縣市 因為是德嘛我現在沒有要贏只是我的意思說如果我們過去一般這種裁判就要講情節重大你才去做什麼可是現在沒有的話 到時候"},{"start":21839.019,"end":21859.014,"text":"民眾的溯源會不會更多就是因為沒有有些縣市就直接就我看你你90天沒來我馬上就去做這個東西因為90天也有可能很多狀況事實上是他不是惡意刻意他假設因為以前我們在拆違章建築在當委員的時候都還要去考慮"},{"start":21859.758,"end":21878.054,"text":"孕婦或考慮家裡有沒有人過世這些很多的條件去考慮的時候有一些但書才去做這個東西因為拆房子要顧忌到我們的風俗民情所以我覺得如果這個的話會不會讓那個彈性度太大反而造成一些困擾這個可能要去想 以上好 請陳昭智委員發言"},{"start":21886.764,"end":21906.594,"text":"我想說有我在對於那個限期改善限期的部分尊重大家討論那個改善的部分我現在確認一下改善的部分就是要重新再經過檢測認證對嗎那現在就我記得我想再確認一下說我大概在半年之前有一次質詢因為現在受理機車改裝這個白血管合法檢驗時候"},{"start":21907.654,"end":21924.409,"text":"因為他是各地方自己用他的標準像台中南投苗栗的環保局那時候應該是彭部長您已經上任竟然要求把這個中尾段都焊死黏死等等那因為這個陳情者或是網路上有說因為他各地環保局不一樣"},{"start":21925.45,"end":21952.826,"text":"那是不是那時候我是請環境部能夠做一個統一啦因為基亞檢測就有一個統一的方式然後再去測就是要用什麼方式去發證那這個東西當然有一點複雜可不可以在立法說明的時候那個改善所謂限期改善的改善限期我現在就聽大家尊重大家一點那個改善的意思就是重新再對吧重新再認證那那個東西各地的標準確實有不一致喔"},{"start":21954.099,"end":21980.905,"text":"也确实有不一样各地方那因为车子是机动的你这边OK跑到那里就不OK那也不对啊谢谢委员就是有关那个改善结果的判别都是以我们管制噪音管制标准来做判别嘛所以他做完以后那我们过去有要求县市环保局在做相关量测的时候要求那个要焊死不让他随便在比如说如果没有焊死的话他可能测完他回去又拔掉"},{"start":21981.365,"end":22002.146,"text":"不好意思我继续跟他对话一下我自己说有规定旱死年死的就只有几个都市那有几个城市没有我还特别提台中南投苗栗的他们是这样规定但有些没有这样规定所以是不是请环境部就是把它一致化我们要求我们下达的时候其实是要求都是旱死的"},{"start":22002.406,"end":22024.421,"text":"那也没关系一致就可以了免得一辆车子从这里跑到那边合格变不合格不合格变合格可以吗可以在立法说明里面把这个我们可以在相关修法完以后航班就是要求在执法的相关的要求就是这件事情已经有大概将近一年前了谢谢"},{"start":22025.162,"end":22054.291,"text":"好所以我想問因為剛剛你們前面有回答說會有一個裁發基準因為我們現在不管什麼樣裁發你都不可以0到100的時候那個範圍太大有些人就是一直在裁0可是他也沒有0到100的那個基準的話就會差異很大有人一開始就反正只要再一次反正我就馬上去去那個移情公路總局去調扣車牌所以是不是你們這個會搭配去做那個裁發基準"},{"start":22056.843,"end":22077.163,"text":"跟委員報告目前裁罰基準上面對移動車輛的部分有有兩個做法第一個是他第一次違反的時候過去的罰則是罰款最低法是1800他先罰1800但是你如果第二次就按次處罰加900塊所以就等於1800的一半變成2700第二次就變2700這是一個"},{"start":22079.168,"end":22096.254,"text":"第二個處罰的方式是如果他在夜間跟特定的噪音管制區的時候違反的時候我們直接取最高法當時的最高法是3600所以就直接罰3600也就是1800的兩倍 3600但是如果隨著我們這一次"},{"start":22097.406,"end":22121.625,"text":"滑板的上下線都改了改成3600跟36000的時候我們會重新再去設計包含它超過的分倍數的多寡還有包含它一年它這一年或兩年內違反幾次以後我們要乘倍數來做儲備讓它可以有嚇阻的作用對 那是錢嘛現在講的時候到底有你到第二如果他這樣講沒有改善的話"},{"start":22123.46,"end":22138.553,"text":"講得很寬嘛 案是處罰外就要得 得以請公務員監理就按那個調扣期牌照會不會我馬上就已經是不只是罰到2700以剛剛過去的那個錢的話我馬上也要調扣他的那個"},{"start":22139.313,"end":22164.902,"text":"這個是有可能的所以我就說那個差異很大反正我們一般來講會說重大情節再去做這些事情否則的話這個寫法會變成會不會各地方的執行會非常的大差異那有些縣市大概就是有一個很嚴的他就每次到一沒改善就這樣做這是一個所以我擔心的會是到時候溯源會不會很多另外一個就是說今天法務是不是也有"},{"start":22165.891,"end":22192.459,"text":"有來那我覺得可不可以解釋一下法跟法之間競合的落差的那個否則的話跟道交條例裡邊差異這麼大的話那是不是好像犯了這邊的問題就很嚴重罰的很處罰的非常的重然後可是在我們認為更嚴重的在交通違規的話更嚴重就反而罰的不是這麼重委員吹薰這是43條的部分嗎26條"},{"start":22200.236,"end":22206.13,"text":"不然是不是請環境部再宣讀一下也請各位委員和相關人士看一下螢幕的修正條文內容"},{"start":22209.249,"end":22233.937,"text":"就目前的委員提出的修正版本的部分26條第一項是違反第11條第一項所定標準者與民用航空器依民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人新台幣3600元以上36000元以下划算並通知限期改善藉其人未完成改善者處案次處罰外並得以請"},{"start":22236.718,"end":22263.036,"text":"公路監理機關調扣其牌照自改善完畢後發法案那第二項是前項情形於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月那個那個提案修正"},{"start":22263.877,"end":22272.774,"text":"所以你們現在是說剛剛問我們法務部這邊有沒有什麼意見我這邊我們就尊重那個主管機關他們的意見"},{"start":22277.912,"end":22297.644,"text":"要解釋說剛剛提的如果酒駕獲得是無照價值罰的都沒有這個這麼重然後這邊罰的這麼重一個是生命的我不是講環保不重要照應大家也對人家精神上有干擾只是我覺得法的那個比例原則裡面各法之間的那個競合關係是不是要請你法部表示意見 以上可以先"},{"start":22301.457,"end":22313.052,"text":"我可以先請交通部等一下一起說明一下我們知道這個噪音的確尤其是在深夜的時候造成民眾的這個影響真的非常大那目前"},{"start":22314.094,"end":22336.709,"text":"交通部在什麼情境之下什麼需求之下才有需要去調扣他的駕照或者是執照之類的就是如果我們還是希望這個有一定的比例原則如果其他的相關的要到調扣牌照的那些行為跟我們這次想要訂的這個違規的行為"},{"start":22339.111,"end":22356.155,"text":"有他的太大的不一致性的時候我現在對民眾來講要他做改善當然是很好可是又逾越了這個法令的需求以上好是不是請交交通部的交通部出席官員回答吊銷"},{"start":22376.741,"end":22399.028,"text":"那個我補充一下啦剛剛我聽環境部這裡回答嘛它其實有各種樣態嘛第一次犯多少錢然後如果你在寧靜區或什麼的嘛或夜間嘛所以它其實就有層次嘛那我現在把調扣的排名得調扣條款加在裡面你就把最嚴重的狀況嘛我夜晚在寧靜區飆我就是調扣嘛這其實給你一個你在放裁罰基準的時候你本來會按照比例原則去做處理這個事嘛"},{"start":22399.668,"end":22428.994,"text":"所以我才講說你把最高的那種各式各樣的方法都寫在法條裡面然後在你的裁罰基準裡面你去明列這樣子就沒有那麼多溯源的問題了嘛因為你已經寫得很清楚說我是在哪一些情況之下最嚴重的情況下我會直接去做調扣而且我覺得這個也是我這個等於是憲改沒有完成完全不配合的人才有機會可以議請調扣其實已經我是覺得已經算很比起我本來說應送或者是甚至要註銷已經算是很我覺得算是很寬容了啦所以是不是趕快有一點有一個共識我是希望比較好啦"},{"start":22431.124,"end":22459.331,"text":"這跟委員會報告我是交通部公運司專門委員趙信偉那剛剛委員提到關於處罰條例有關於吊扣的牌照的部分我簡單跟委員會報告第一個我們現在違反道路交通管理處罰條例的相關處罰大概從最新從發黃開始到比較嚴重的吊扣牌照然後到吊銷牌照到末路大概是有這樣子依照情節那我們現行的處罰條例面如果有第一次違反規定就要吊扣牌照這種情節的話在處罰條例大概目前大概只有三四種太陽包含第一個酒駕"},{"start":22460.791,"end":22484.922,"text":"處罰單35條的酒駕第二個43條的危險駕駛第三個是處罰單12條的你是使用偽變照號牌跟這個部分那第四個大概就是我們最近新增的有關無照駕駛的部分只有這樣子的這幾種情形才會有第一次違反的時候就會有吊扣牌照的這樣子情形所以我們吊扣牌照在我們道路交通關係處罰條裡面算是一個比較重的一個處分以上補充說明"},{"start":22487.967,"end":22495.23,"text":"不過他不是第一次就得疫情他是第二次因為他是限期改善他不改善喔他是不改善之後"},{"start":22498.356,"end":22521.749,"text":"就是說他限期改善他不改善了90天後他不改善了那他除了暗刺處罰之外他最重可以得疑情這樣子各位報告我剛剛說明了數線線型的12條21條35條跟43條部分大概就是第一次就有掉過駕照的那如果你是累犯的部分的話或第二次的話呢有在掉扣牌照的也是有有相關規定的就蠻多的是不是樣態就比較多了"},{"start":22522.089,"end":22538.97,"text":"當然都是因為吊扣牌照是影響到車子的使用那這個是屬於比較情節重大的大概就是要累犯或是要一定次數以上才會有這樣子的一個處罰以上我補充一下那個剛剛修過的道交條例16條是沒有按照環境部的排氣管然後沒有驗車就一次就直接扣喔"},{"start":22539.671,"end":22562.157,"text":"所以我是覺得沒有道理公路監理的法規比環保法規還嚴格如果我們的本意是要遏制噪音的話啦所以我是希望他是有同步的概念我之所以會這樣寫是有同步的概念我認為是這樣因為他現在看起來並不是第一次第一次就處理嘛就把他得以請他是等於是第二次第一次抓到之後沒有限期改善者他可以得以請啦"},{"start":22562.737,"end":22574.39,"text":"那照剛剛交通部的講法就是其實這樣子的樣態就比較多了所以這部分不知道大家有沒有共識請問寧約群委員跟這個王振旭委員如果這樣子解釋的話會不會有共識"},{"start":22576.659,"end":22599.507,"text":"因為前面跟後面到底因為第一個事實上是你第一次犯然後後來因為他沒有去改善可是他也沒去開這個車然後就要去調扣牌照到第二項的時候是說他再犯也是會去扣那第一次是不是比例原則上那第一次我沒改善我就去扣第二次我再犯"},{"start":22601.168,"end":22621.036,"text":"這前項跟後項當中有沒有有一些我自己感覺上好像也是有點不太對的它是等於是它是得啦它是給它一個空間比較嚴格一點的但是它是第二次那我覺得還有一種做法我們現在可以等一下第二輪反正才三條嘛我們可以第二輪再回來討論我們可以先看28條好不好對啊第二28條沒有什麼問題啊"},{"start":22630.085,"end":22630.106,"text":"我"},{"start":22630.951,"end":22659.638,"text":"是不是我再跟各位補充報告一下就是26條的這個部分剛才牛委員有特別垂詢說我們是不是可以在裁罰基準裡面再去定這個德的樣態其實依照過去的做法過去環保法規的做法那個裁罰基準都是在定那個划緩的金額而已所以目前那個德移情公路機關的確是會變成是地方主管機關的裁量權會變成那判斷"},{"start":22660.97,"end":22669.272,"text":"那也有可能會發生像林慧琼委員所講的有可能各機關的各地方的做法可能會不一樣是有這樣的可能有這樣的風險"},{"start":22672.199,"end":22700.388,"text":"好這個剛剛行政機關有說明喔這個剛剛牛委員有沒有聽到他對有嗎那現在如果還沒有公示不然我們這條現在先保留等一下我們再回來討論好第二輪再回來討論那我們現在就先進入第28條所以現在進行噪音管制法第28條條文審查委員提案的部分有這個張志倫委員台灣民眾黨黨團牛許廷委員還有洪孟楷委員及廖偉祥委員等"},{"start":22700.888,"end":22717.826,"text":"那這個還有一個修正動議還有一個修正動議對這個跟修正動議有林岳勤委員王振旭委員以及劉建國委員好那我們現在請先請環境部說明再請委員發言"},{"start":22724.284,"end":22752.974,"text":"第28条的部分最主要是不依第13条第13条的部分是民众检举这个车辆然后所以呢他要来倒检或者是检验不合格处激动那这一次配合这个委员的提案呢其实我们把相关的这个划环的部分也重新调整原来是1600到36001800到3600我们把它调整成新台币3600以上到36000以下的划环以上报告"},{"start":22755.171,"end":22782.139,"text":"好 請委員發表意見我覺得這條比較沒爭議嘛因為它真的是不依十三條規定啦十三條是跟人民陳情有關嘛那為了避免這個事情又變成互相檢舉然後造成案量很多然後不見得好處理這件事情的話先用法環來處理我覺得OK啦所以我覺得看看要不要大家如果沒有意見我們就照環保環境部的建議的版本我們這樣來達成共識是不是 謝謝好 還有沒有其他委員有意見"},{"start":22783.379,"end":22800.552,"text":"如果沒有的話請陳昭智委員發言我們居然是最重的民眾黨團的是6000元到6萬以下不過這個我們不堅持那個環境部現在你們最後的修正的還是多少錢"},{"start":22803.447,"end":22819.726,"text":"三千六 如果這個我想就各個委員的版本從一千八到最上最上是六萬差距很大那個我就沒有特別發現我們很嚴格但我不會堅持好那請洪峰凱委員發言"},{"start":22820.447,"end":22841.829,"text":"那環境部是不是也可以說明一下因為我看到有一些委員包括本席的版本都有違反第二次吊扣駕照不管是六個月或是一年的部分那在這一條裡面你們建議到之後還是不要吊扣駕照主要原因是什麼是不是也說明一下是 跟委員報告這一條最主要是民眾檢舉陳情所以被檢舉人他要來盜檢"},{"start":22843.911,"end":22862.348,"text":"那有可能那個人沒有來倒檢那也許他忘了或者他沒有那第二次沒倒檢他就被調後拍照因為我們在實務上有看到那種惡意檢舉的樣態再加上那個如果那個車子是他的生財工具的話他必須在禮拜一到禮拜五去環保局"},{"start":22863.129,"end":22880.88,"text":"那如果他沒去兩次他就被調扣牌照了等於是你們也看到有可能譬如說到最後變成是惡意檢舉然後互相攻擊互相傷害那避免是說民眾濫用公權力是不是另外一個就是跟委員報告因為他並不是被環保機關"},{"start":22883.279,"end":22908.461,"text":"檢測到他不合規定他可能是未倒檢然後就被兩次就扣牌他如果不合格上路被抓到就用26條就處分了兩次他就可以調扣牌照6個月就不用在28條處理因為28條真的很擔心會有人惡意檢舉這樣主席我原則上同意環境部的修法就3600到3600以上"},{"start":22911.36,"end":22938.409,"text":"好這個謝謝委員發言那這一這個部分第28條就依照環境部建議 照委員羅廷偉等17人提案修正通過那現在再到第二輪有沒有 委員有沒有需要 建議休息5分鐘讓大家再討論一下好那我們休息5分鐘請這個行政機關是不是跟委員溝通一下"},{"start":22961.075,"end":22989.11,"text":"二八是陳情是不是我覺得真的不要有這個有些人那個亂亂亂你如果說你在路上被檢舉你等於是你已經被檢舉到第二次因為他們關於那個裁判是準確的你哪有辦法寫出來這樣可是否則你他用的當然我覺得我不是不支持這個用的之後真的會比之前寬鬆一點可是重點是地方政府在執行的時候因為我以前一直在處理那種兒女或"},{"start":22990.211,"end":23000.06,"text":"那地方每一個差異很大那就很衰蠻好了做到這個你的法是用盒啊那我不要啊我等到第三次才做嗎我先問一下感謝我們這邊法定改革的空間但是另外一個就是說"},{"start":23013.041,"end":23030.007,"text":"就是你怎麼從3000罰到3600罰到30000罰那但是對於這一種一起這個附近的機關的部分沒有辦法在台灣去整定所以就變成地上主體機關都封閉了所以就會發生剛才林委員剛才所提的就是有可能我們的縣市跟他可能"},{"start":23032.85,"end":23040.423,"text":"可能壓力或怎麼樣 反正通常都...就變成說 同樣的一個樣態 可能會發生另外一件事 那時候香港也跟我們有關因為他又去殭屍"},{"start":23047.333,"end":23066.166,"text":"也有可能是他的車輛不是改裝的但他就為了照片可能真的就像我講的他可能現時改但他就改了結果沒有過然後就掉後擦傷那個但是有可能有一個地方"},{"start":23072.102,"end":23087.17,"text":"指法人員他在現場的時候 假設他是改裝車 那他就送那如果說是老舊車 那他就不要送了沒有 他是要他改善先送現改 現改沒過 我可以 我可以過我們可以一起接一條路過來我覺得還好"},{"start":23093.413,"end":23105.981,"text":"那我問喔因為有些鄉下地方他們因為車輛老舊"},{"start":23120.61,"end":23127.534,"text":"我們還要考慮到因為不能用都市觀點去看那如果他也沒辦法改造可是他需要他這個車再騎"},{"start":23137.817,"end":23158.064,"text":"他沒辦法改善所以有可能就被承諾過關所以我站在你的談判之中因為我們要解決的是那種他喜歡飆車的啦所以我之所以講說反而給地方政府面前有些好事我可以看出來我在杜威夷我就把他設立成營運區或者是駕降司法局那我駕降司法局我可能會從措施上去相對來講其實也沒有影響到大洲"},{"start":23160.345,"end":23186.593,"text":"可是你們可以做一些因為我覺得裁判基準像我們自己在處理的裁判基準的話它底下還是可以有引導師的說明這些就是在執法上可以有一些引導師那這個我就接受你立法書面把它給寫進去因為你怕的是這個對 就是那種老舊車輛對 老舊車輛可是我又有怕有的縣市又是 我就不要怕"},{"start":23191.015,"end":23200.245,"text":"他不是改裝 他是剛好沒有車 結果他生財工具我們要考慮到民生 結果他生財工具被扣兩個月以後他影響你那麼多還蠻驚人的時候 可能會影響更大的"},{"start":23205.171,"end":23224.785,"text":"所以我們當時為甚麼只建議說一、二項一年兩次我們會覺得是說一年兩次至少感覺比較符合其他的那個經濟重大的因為我們有去查台北市一年兩次的一年兩次大概有三百間三百間那新北的部分大概八十幾大概有這幾個謝謝 突然不如我們去查但是會變成是說"},{"start":23234.572,"end":23256.63,"text":"我們只算是比較情節重大的才去調控它其他的我們用滑板來設計的情況下可是第26條它是寫維繩第一條第一項目那第26條第一項目是要去規範什麼是特別狀況那就是一般狀況如果我們是想要針對這種夜間或者是"},{"start":23260.598,"end":23272.985,"text":"那個我們都在採訪基礎裡面有特別加注葉簡的重瓦我覺得這樣比較好我是有人生財工業他在要用你就要採訪 要調科他就沒辦法工作我是說如果要把那個香港聯合公司的一些想法關注到這一條的話因為我們職業獎規範第七條是一項"},{"start":23293.178,"end":23296.16,"text":"所以剛才"},{"start":23312.601,"end":23328.133,"text":"因為汽車目前還沒有到當然我們希望他可以"},{"start":23351.179,"end":23357.162,"text":"所以你還違反那就殺頭了 沒什麼好客氣的"},{"start":23367.423,"end":23377.45,"text":"而且另外一點你如果剛講到身材工具或什麼但他重點是他還是會發出噪音那我們還是不希望說雖然他是他的身材工具但我們還是不希望說"},{"start":23378.86,"end":23405.838,"text":"持續發出噪音嘛那如果說你後面我們還有一個在一年裡面違反二次然後要調扣不管是半年或一年的話那這樣子那生財工具還是要被抓拿嗎對啊所以說有第一次比如說第一次到然後這個得扣或不扣那個就是裁量嘛但是我們也要讓那個老舊車輛或是說他真的生財工具你也要警惕就是說那這樣子你要試著趕快去把這個車輛更新或是加強"},{"start":23408.88,"end":23423.513,"text":"不要噪音 不然你如果說下一次三個月後再被抓到那你一樣就 吊扣啦那我們就是不要噪音嘛都懂 可是如果是有證的是啦 但是重點是說這樣就是民怨啦"},{"start":23425.251,"end":23451.304,"text":"如果是晚上這樣就沒問題了白天因為他們要用到車也是白天 那就煙嘛我覺得還有一個就是你們不是都有很多的樣態嗎就是剛剛應該會有一些質疑對啊 就讓那邊解決就好了這是112年6月30號修正的像我們這裡面就有規定於夜間這個時段以法定的最高划算來處理然後我們的後面就有加速 夜間時段"},{"start":23455.618,"end":23465.6,"text":"所以我們將來 既然現在已經調到3000到3600我們後續就會去設計這個機制譬如說像 簡單來講它那個會是情節很重大譬如說超過幾分貝勒 我們就要拔多少錢"},{"start":23481.104,"end":23504.751,"text":"對 我們會去設計這個 重新調整包含剛才委員關係的在不同的時段或特定區域學校旁邊其實學校旁邊我們連哨音管制標準都加以五分貝就是避免去影響到如果在那邊我們可以做我覺得月勤委員擔心的只是說這個財量的基準很大然後變成是到時候很多麻煩的都住院了但是我覺得這是可以解決的就是說你們要有一個標準"},{"start":23507.012,"end":23507.032,"text":"對啦 這樣"},{"start":23525.638,"end":23543.767,"text":"是 可是我覺得前面 因為我說之前我們在處理幼兒園的那個他也是在裁罰基準 前面有個質疑式的說明說你要考慮到他等於是說你回去講一下說什麼情況可能你回去看一下你那五千多件裁罰裡面有什麼可能是他現期內感到你要對 我們現在等於是說讓你授權你在裁罰基準去做處理"},{"start":23557.121,"end":23562.826,"text":"或是前面就是除暗示處罰外 刑劫重大者"},{"start":23582.278,"end":23611.925,"text":"那情節重大你們把它定義出來一樣的道理嘛就是說你90天沒有去處理那還或者說一個什麼事情情節重大對 用情節重大那情節重大你就可以有一個標準用情節重大比較寬鬆然後用明確的把時間列出來那那個標準把它寫出來那就會好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好"},{"start":23617.384,"end":23630.142,"text":"只要不會有爭議現在遭殷法裡面是沒有情節重大的這四個字現在加上去以後加上去以後是不是要在母法裡面直接定義情節重大是什麼"},{"start":23633.843,"end":23650.098,"text":"那還是可以換句話說因為概念是這樣概念如果說是就多加這一個那這樣你可以避免一些無心之過或是說比較沒有不可歸咎因素但是我們真正要的是要剋除那些刻意飆車 催油門 拉轉速"},{"start":23659.293,"end":23682.422,"text":"對不起我可以針對情節重大 大家剛有討論到夜間包括安寧地區我們就先把它當作情節重大把它涵掛到我們法院裡面因為這個是基本大家目前對生動數學的這種行為真的是大家無法忍受如果將來要再改變或怎麼樣的話"},{"start":23694.95,"end":23696.914,"text":"所以剛剛有提到除暗示處罰外"},{"start":23707.679,"end":23716.722,"text":"就如果是發生在那個情節重大嘛後面那家情節重大這樣的說明情節重大說明就發發來情節重大必得宜寢情節重大就得宜寢謝謝部長 辛苦了 辛苦了 大家辛苦了"},{"start":23758.192,"end":23761.534,"text":"好那我們現在請環境部說明協商結果"},{"start":23764.645,"end":23792.967,"text":"向委員報告那個依照目前所修正的文字呢對於這個借其未完 在第一項裡面借其未完成改善者除暗刺處罰外加上情節重大者並得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照自改善完畢後劃法"},{"start":23798.041,"end":23809.427,"text":"因為他前面已經有處案這是處罰外我想病應該可以不用了因為他處我們各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":23811.986,"end":23838.469,"text":"可以嗎可以喔好我只是確認一下法律用語是這樣子嗎情節重大者還是就犯行情節重大者情節重大者的我只是確認一下我們有沒有那個法務同仁還是什麼來建議好情節重大者後面鬥點情節重大者後面鬥點"},{"start":23856.619,"end":23859.962,"text":"好我們是不是先請這個環境部再念一次再選讀一次"},{"start":23861.946,"end":23889.402,"text":"第26條違反第11條第一項鎖定標準者除民用航空機依民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人薪台幣3600元以上36000元以下划款並通知限期改善藉其仍未完成改善者除按次處罰外情節重大者並得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照至改善完畢後划法"},{"start":23890.462,"end":23906.019,"text":"前項情形於一年內再度違反者得疑請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月好那主席情節重大者就授權行政機關這邊在立法說明這邊把他給列舉出來好"},{"start":23908.666,"end":23933.13,"text":"那這個相關情節重大者就請行政部門在這個說明的部分把它列出來那這一條我們第26條呢就照委員羅明才等20人提案及委員盧憲一 牛許廷等4人修正動議修正通過是不是要印出來大家簽名不用嗎"},{"start":23936.144,"end":23939.626,"text":"現在先印出來給委員看一下"},{"start":23966.91,"end":23972.08,"text":"現在處理附帶決議共一案請議事人員宣讀內容"},{"start":23975.151,"end":23997.7,"text":"附帶決議有鑒於移動噪音源稽查難度較高請環境部加強設置聲音照相透過科技執法取締噪音車及改裝排氣管源頭管理令科技執法上難以涵蓋噪音車出沒熱點民眾陳情噪音車案例仍持續發生國家環境研究院因緊述研發更新技術"},{"start":23999.061,"end":24021.882,"text":"並盤點地方政府需求持續推動聲音照相設備以降低噪音提升生活品質提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴盧憲一宣讀完畢好請問本案行政單位有沒有意見好委員有沒有意見好謝謝好那都無異議照案通過"},{"start":24024.693,"end":24030.738,"text":"做以下決議那個其他我也沒有看到負債決議可不可以目前正在處理謝謝"},{"start":24074.183,"end":24078.425,"text":"好大家都沒有異議吧好無異議那就照案通過"},{"start":24083.151,"end":24102.599,"text":"那現在做以下決議噪音管制法第2條26條及28條條文修正草案等12案審查完略並案擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論本案時由廖召集委員韋翔補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":24104.704,"end":24118.13,"text":"不用好不須交由黨團協商那本法案第28條相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":24136.115,"end":24138.523,"text":"謝謝大家收看"}]}},{"id":"17007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17007","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d16bff821a9cb407d90e2b392a37ba3c683051bafb051454bc782df6b7f849dbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【11月5日及6日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-05T08:33:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T13:02:00+08:00","duration":16098,"影片長度":"04:28:18","委員發言時間":"08:33:42 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不好意思國立歷史博物館洪世佑館長國立台灣美術館陳礦儀館長國立台灣工藝研究發展中心陳電理主任國立台灣博物館陳登清館長"},{"start":1778.695,"end":1807.06,"text":"國立台灣史前文化博物館蔡正良館長國立台灣交響樂團歐陽惠剛團長國立台灣歷史博物館張龍志館長國立台灣文學館陳盈芳館長國家人權博物館洪世芳館長國家鐵道博物館籌備處鄭明璋主任"},{"start":1809.622,"end":1834.767,"text":"國家如同未來館籌備處曾聰邦主任國家漫畫博物館籌備處楊庭珍代理主任行政法人國家表演藝術中心郭美娟主任行政法人文化內容策進院王敏慧院長國家電影及視聽文化中心楚明仁董事長"},{"start":1837.221,"end":1861.072,"text":"財團法人中央廣播電台賴秀如董事長財團法人公共電視文化事業基金會徐秋華總經理財團法人中央通訊社胡婉玲社長現在請文化部李部長進行業務報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":1871.324,"end":1897.002,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進還有我們文化部所有同仁大家好今天非常榮幸因大院教育及文化委員會的邀請提出文化部的業務報告並且備詢我在此代表文化部就今年文化部推動的各項業務的辦理情況及具體成果以及未來的施政重點進行報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":1897.822,"end":1908.069,"text":"今年文化幣政策向下延伸到13到15歲每人600點加上原本的16到22歲截至昨天領用人數約162.5萬人領取率"},{"start":1913.593,"end":1933.507,"text":"近八成使用金額大概13.09億到了年底我們預估整體的使用率將會更加速大約八成五所以我們會發揮運動精神和運動部一起攜手最後衝刺聯手加碼文化幣和青春動資券"},{"start":1935.151,"end":1958.271,"text":"文化必定成為青少年族群或是青少年和他們家庭一起從事文化消費的重要政策文化產業界非常有感所以我們也鼓勵業界創作更多適合兒少青年的文化內容今年我們首屆徵選獎勵30位繪本及圖文新秀創作者辦理繪本及圖文書學校"},{"start":1963.823,"end":1987.631,"text":"推出首届国家级绘本奖、经会奖以及绘本及图文书创作及出版奖励一连串有系统的奖励扶持行销期待能快培力更多图文书创作者与国际市场接轨台北国际书展已经是国际市场上具有辨识度的品牌书展"},{"start":1988.803,"end":2012.137,"text":"今年的參觀人數版權交易創下歷年紀錄今年我們決定走出台北到台中舉辦第一屆台灣國際兒少書展有來自14個國家的作家跟插畫家出版專業人士參與這一場專屬兒少的國際書展明年我們將到高雄舉辦"},{"start":2015.007,"end":2037.939,"text":"臺灣的文學正在被全世界看見其中國際的譯者是非常重要的橋樑因此緊接著我們也即將舉辦第一屆臺灣作家節邀請國內外作家譯者參與有文學講座文學改編的表演還有文學工作坊歡迎各位委員共襄盛舉"},{"start":2039.395,"end":2065.284,"text":"所以我们今年在出版方面跨出了许多第一步包括第一届经会奖第一届绘本及图文学校第一届台湾作家节第一届清漫奖以及第一届台湾国际儿少书展不只是文学今年九月我特别到法国安捷克推动跨部会合作的欧洲台湾文化年"},{"start":2066.678,"end":2093.336,"text":"促成更多领域的文化交流同时也邀请欧洲的朋友来到台湾看看期待把更多的台湾表演创作者带进国际市场回到亚洲我们今天用文化世博的概念在大阪策划WeTaiwan活动响应大阪世博我们可爱的人气角色IP阿维帮我们交了很多国际朋友"},{"start":2094.451,"end":2121.945,"text":"文化世博除了展現台灣的色彩、文學、電影台灣表演團隊在最後更進到世博的主舞台演出島嶼之聲、妙城前的謝神戲真的令人非常感動台灣之所以能夠在國際上展演出多元的文化是因為我們不只是一個自由的國家我們更是一個充滿故事的國家"},{"start":2123.189,"end":2143.001,"text":"為了實現全民的文化體驗共創與共享我們推動了百大文化基地創聯跨部會的資源和地方政府合作引入觀光能量讓這些基地持續保有養分不斷茁壯"},{"start":2145.509,"end":2166.761,"text":"近期因為風災豪雨造成的嚴重災情我們也針對各種文化設施立刻投入協助爭取丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例特別預算2.94億來協助地方政府辦理文化資產災後搶救及復建"},{"start":2171.729,"end":2193.765,"text":"昨天一年一度的創意內容大會TCCF正式開始文策院透過國發基金和韓國娛樂龍頭CJ集團以及國內的遠傳電信TVBS將共同投資台灣文化內容產業我們的目標很明確就是國際市場"},{"start":2195.745,"end":2222.492,"text":"台湾影视内容产业在国际市场其实非常有潜力像是讨论移工的议题话外之一就获得韩国全球OTD大奖这部戏的男主角是越南的演员连秉发他今年拿下金钟影帝这是有史以来第一次陈欣怡指导的VR作品云在两千米获得了威尼斯影展大奖"},{"start":2224.653,"end":2250.27,"text":"台灣有很多很好的故事我們現在要做的是提升國際製作規格還有在國際行銷讓台灣的影視作品能夠擁有國際市場所以今年我們推出了大航海計畫和台灣影視編劇學院還有台灣故事開發國際合作計畫期待全面提升和國際專業團隊的合作"},{"start":2253.359,"end":2272.186,"text":"在此我也要跟各位委員分享一個振奮人心的好消息電影96分鐘票房已經突破2億元我們希望有更多國片能夠起飛振奮台灣電影產業我也邀請各位委員去看國片多多鼓勵國片宣傳國片"},{"start":2275.779,"end":2298.024,"text":"因為科技的發展讓文化內容的創作門檻越來越低創作形式越來越多元未來文化的發展不外乎就是三個IIP AI Innovation文化部持續鼓勵IP產業發展8月的台灣文博交易金額總達13.5億參與人數大約65萬人次創了新高"},{"start":2305.814,"end":2325.219,"text":"明年期待有更多的國際買家和創作者在AI方面我們7月公告了文化藝術應用生成式AI指引期待協助文化藝術工作者建立AI認知並提供因應的建議"},{"start":2327.165,"end":2355.493,"text":"明年度我們預計推動文化禮經13到15歲常態化1200點擴大辦理展會和展演持續向下扎根壯大文化消費市場支持台灣文化內容提升競爭力開拓國際市場並且讓台灣的藝術家創作者在國際舞台上發光發亮以上報告請大院委員不吝指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2360.526,"end":2384.4,"text":"謝謝李部長口頭報告 現在進行詢答每位出席委員執行時間6分鐘 必要時延長2分鐘列席委員執行時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員吳佩奕執行結束後即進行處理"},{"start":2385.22,"end":2393.463,"text":"處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均會在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位林沛翔委員質詢好謝謝主席有請李部長請部長"},{"start":2410.017,"end":2426.392,"text":"林佩霞委員你好部長早有關中國國民黨黨團我們在10月30號的時候針對公廣集團董事提名召開過記者會那想請問一下就是說目前董監事名單何時提出目前進度如何"},{"start":2427.093,"end":2444.182,"text":"好關於這一點事情跟委員報告按照規定我們在董建市到期的前半年就要啟動這個甄選的計畫那我們文化部的確按照規定在半年前去年11月就啟動了這個這個報告然後啟動這個整個作業調查在調查過程中"},{"start":2452.605,"end":2475.567,"text":"我在這邊抱歉就的確是我們在過程中非常不順利因為這次是第一次審查委員從3%降到2%照理說應該更簡單但是因為之前的有一些公共電視選拔這個委員的過程中非常的不順利成為一個新聞例如"},{"start":2476.513,"end":2495.64,"text":"例如有兩屆的時間是審查幾乎到一千天也就是有兩屆的委員審查到一千天接近一千天還有一屆委員提名了49人刪掉30個人像這樣的新聞造成我在甄選的過程中非常不順利我舉個例子"},{"start":2496.5,"end":2510.553,"text":"其中有一個我徵詢的委員他告訴我說我會耽誤你們的選拔因為我可能過去很多言論得罪了誰這是其中一個其中一個意見於是我在徵詢過程中"},{"start":2512.403,"end":2527.032,"text":"遇到了很多的困難因為公共電視是一個大家都非常重視的公共媒體當我們選委員的時候必須照顧到族群還有各種文化還有性別還有專業我也必須老實講"},{"start":2530.475,"end":2545.395,"text":"外界就是質疑因為老實說我們從今年1月就已經公布了15位審查委員的名單那你也剛剛自己講了公示法也行修法降低同意門檻理論上應該更順暢但是還是零提名"},{"start":2546.236,"end":2568.545,"text":"這樣外界就開始在質疑某個程度上已經到現在已經拖了一年了之後外界常常在質疑說這就是充滿了政治盤算是不是要意圖讓現任的董監事無限延任繼續掌控公網集團呢這一點我跟委員解釋一下這一點絕對不會是政治盤算的原因是原來的每一個"},{"start":2569.73,"end":2594.422,"text":"委员也是经过前一次的评选非常严格的评选也挑出来非常专业的董监事然后这个董监事的过程按照规定时间其实很有限而且这个问题大家都很关心那我提出一个解决方案您知道说中选会也最近很多委员任期都满了"},{"start":2595.303,"end":2622.243,"text":"我们是不是可以比照中选会由行政院发函给各党团来推荐公事的董监事人选呢因为必须这样讲现在公事已经快超过一年了你刚才讲说征询了将近三年这样下去总不是个办法如果说中选会可以这样做的话是否我们在公事集团的人事上面可以比照有一个目前有个先例出来我想"},{"start":2623.004,"end":2646.816,"text":"立法院提出来的人选应该不会被立法院强力攻击吧对吧如果说你刚刚讲就是说有很多考量有很多不同的想法那老实说我们就应该把它变成说各党团来推荐各党团都有知道的文化人也是可以希望而且由各党团推荐反而更能够展现所谓的公平性不是吗"},{"start":2649.059,"end":2670.914,"text":"委員的建議我再解釋一下按照規定是由行政院提出一個名單然後立法院黨團派人他負責審議那名單是由行政院提出這就是我們覺得很頭痛的地方因為行政院這樣做法其實讓一般的民眾會讓尤其是讓關心的學者們會覺得這根本在執法玩法亂法嘛"},{"start":2671.587,"end":2698.971,"text":"因為拖了這麼久如果說今天這個案子沒有拖了這麼久的話本席不會在這邊特地拿出來談而且部長你也知道第七屆董監事延宕的也是將近快三年967天的治理亂象那時候這個延宕導致說公視新聞的資料無端被刪除華視新聞內容連續出包甚至我們的媒體公信力嚴重流失最後面被監察院認證成行政怠惰"},{"start":2699.611,"end":2727.424,"text":"那文化部現在要重蹈覆轍嗎這樣對於我們國家是好嗎對於整個執政團隊是好嗎我認為不是耶所以提早趕快把這個人選拿出來這是很重要的一塊因為拖太久了我想我今天在這邊質詢我是純的善意去了解這個狀況如果是別人來這邊質詢的話恐怕就是不是這樣講但是如果你們不能夠盡快的提出一個好總監事人選或許"},{"start":2728.485,"end":2743.821,"text":"或许依照现在中选例提出来的解决方式也不是唯一一个好方法毕竟来讲公示这边已经延宕太久延宕到现在已经变成国家议题的时候这绝对不是公示制服也绝对不是整个实证团队制服不是吗"},{"start":2745.254,"end":2764.093,"text":"是委員講得非常對公司從1998年成立到現在我覺得它是一個在很少的預算下努力發展的一個公共媒體但是它因為董建勢的甄選單書訂出這樣一個審議辦法之後剛剛我跟委員報告有兩次是一千天都選不出來"},{"start":2765.114,"end":2781.073,"text":"可是行政院已經把名單提出來了那什麼時候行政院給我們現在這個名單的因為從上個禮拜我們開記者會到現在又快過了一個禮拜那這個案子其實大家都很關注所以為什麼會把這件事特地第一個我今天第一個質詢就拿出來談"},{"start":2781.673,"end":2796.131,"text":"因为这东西不能再等下去不管是你们心中有什么样的人选总是出来要给大家检视你不能是说现在看起来大家没有注意到就不去做这样其实是不好的也是对整个国家治理对整个媒体治理是不对的"},{"start":2796.872,"end":2822.121,"text":"我覺得部長你認同這句話吧我認同而且我道歉因為照理說這個聽起來是有點時間上拉的真的很長甚至於你會覺得這個事情有點荒謬但是我覺得所有的荒謬來自前面累積的太長一段大家對這個選拔過程非常沒有信心像我打電話親自去拜訪很多委員我幾乎都沒有成功我也試著從原來的一些"},{"start":2823.362,"end":2842.584,"text":"上一任的委員中也一直去尋找拜託部長你拖得越久這種懷疑就越來越多我必須直接講我現在是直接講你拖得越久懷疑越來越多甚至外界有人講說你是政治人民就是因為個人喜好人民你也聽說過這樣的講法那變成其實這個事情如果越拖越久對大家都不好"},{"start":2843.064,"end":2859.405,"text":"公視需要一個新的總監事名單那社會大眾需要看到文化部行政院有實質上的作為但是如果沒有實質上的作為的時候就會讓人家異想紛紛啊就會讓大家覺得說公視到底沒有什麼黑箱就算說現在部長在這邊是特地說"},{"start":2860.046,"end":2889.245,"text":"为了这个延宕我很抱歉但是大家可能期待的不只是个道歉而是个真正我们大家可以认可的公示名单这点很重要这点不分党派都很重要因为这是公示公示一般来讲是我们认为最有公信力的媒体但是这一段下来变成是他公信力因为这样的人事的延宕而去受损的时候这个不是对不起部长不是说道歉不对道歉不是没有价值但是大家会觉得说这不够啊是吧"},{"start":2890.68,"end":2917.377,"text":"是所以本席在這邊會說第一個就是希望說我們公視名單趕快出來之外第二個我真的認為是說中選會既然有行政院發函給各黨團來推薦公視的總監事名單那我覺得文化部可以審慎考慮一下這樣的作為或許這樣能夠快速的解決我們現在遇到的困境您說是嗎因為這個名單是由行政院提出我們是"},{"start":2918.604,"end":2940.562,"text":"作業單位可能您要試著去說服行政院不然的話這樣下去風暴已經開始了這風暴不會因為說一時沒有看到就停下來風暴只會越來越大您跟文化部甚至行政院受到責難只會越來越多所以本席在這邊提出來講麻煩董監事人事名單盡快決定下來而且讓大家能夠去公審好不好"},{"start":2947.387,"end":2972.932,"text":"是 我尽快会提出一个名单是大家都可以接受的一个大家都觉得很专业的一个名单其实我们已经努力到最后关头大概剩下一两个所以这件事情还差两个我没有什么理由拖因为你怎么样想都是它不是一个多么让人家想要争取的位置因为它是没有薪水然后只有责任没有好处所以大家一直觉得它是黑箱其实没什么道理它不是一个好像是一个"},{"start":2973.956,"end":2996.237,"text":"很肥的植物大家要搶而且他也不是一個黑手因為政府的手也沒有伸進去這點都是外面誤會了我們比較期待就事論事公視的董監事名單現在全國都在看那我們立法院每個委員都在看我們期待說在這方面來講行政院文化部速度可以快一點早點名單出來讓我們公審好 謝謝好 我盡快 謝謝"},{"start":2998.466,"end":3015.075,"text":"謝謝林佩祥委員質詢 部長請回座我們現在現場的委員人數有達到一決人數我們先來確定一下上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有 那我們議事錄確定那接下來請柯之恩委員質詢謝謝周阿偉 我們是請李院部長請部長"},{"start":3028.491,"end":3056.989,"text":"科委你好部长好我们赖总统上任已经差不多一年半的时间我记得他在选举不是只有赖总统还有蔡总统他们在选举的时候不但强调文化是多么重要甚至赖总统说步步都是文化步然后他要推所谓的跨域文化治理强化行政院的文化汇报机制请问有做到吗自从你上任以来参加过几次所谓的行政院的文化汇报"},{"start":3059.591,"end":3077.456,"text":"你參加過幾次一次吧一次一次10年來從上任的總統到現在總統不斷的宣示文化有多麼的重要10年來開過8次會議而且呢照我們的設置規範來說的話必須要由行政院長來親自主席"},{"start":3078.016,"end":3104.134,"text":"主持然后呢从讲这个东西到现在根据文化基本法里面历任的行政院长从林泉赖清德苏贞昌陈建仁卓荣泰没有一个行政院长曾经亲自出席过而且呢还告诉我们你看看现在这个部分唯一参加过一次你率领大部分的所有非常有诚意的这个文化部的官员全部到结果呢我们该主持的每一个行政官员全部用代理人出来"},{"start":3104.554,"end":3133.477,"text":"你告诉我全部都是带的除了我们前文化部长使者之外全部带还有后面好几张都是带请告诉我我们现在执政党非常的重视我们文化吗从这样的例子来看非常重视我们文化吗你的行政文化会议里面连规矩都不会来执行你觉得你的观感怎么样部长我这一次参加这个唯一的一次十年八次嘛你参加但是我这一次跟那一次所愿长我就告诉你嘛从头到尾都是带的所愿长"},{"start":3133.977,"end":3162.077,"text":"没有我只告诉你所有的人在选举之前都说我们非常我要帮你文化部发声啊每个人告诉我说多么多种种是文化步步都是文化跨跨跨部会都要来参加这个会议然后呢每半年应该要来参加一次从头到尾都是告诉我们选举之前才告诉我们文化很重要真正在执行真正在落实没有一个人做得到从头到尾都是代理然后呢还有很多人都还没有出席部长是跨离部啊是阿诺啊"},{"start":3162.777,"end":3190.834,"text":"委員我跟您報告一下你所秀出來這張是政務委員始則先開一個會前會就是我們去跟好了我告訴你的沒有了吉林江龍部長這些我只是告訴你你們告訴我們都要參加這樣的一個會議這些條例的部長每一個都是由代理人來出席我只是凸顯很多人在選前講的有多麼重要選後呢告訴我們我們要跨域然後我們要開這個會都沒有我們時間有限部長"},{"start":3191.454,"end":3215.046,"text":"我在幫你文化部發聲請你好好告訴行政院重視他之前所承諾的文化會議好不好這很重要接下來呢我們還是要問一下公視剛剛林佩祥委員講的非常多了那部長一直不斷告訴我們很多人都跟你說婉拒婉拒可是這個部分裡面來說的話你什麼時候開始徵詢的然後呢目前到底中心局位我們很想了解一下"},{"start":3216.287,"end":3224.454,"text":"我很感謝柯委員讓我可以仔細的解釋一下你不要仔細解釋我時間有限你快快解釋好不好第一我們的公務員完全按照"},{"start":3225.9,"end":3245.823,"text":"規定是半年前就啟動就是好啦你現在徵詢多少人啊部長等一下還有很多人你可以慢慢來徵詢多少人啊非常多人但是人數我一下沒辦法舉例因為我的徵詢方式都是直接去找對方我據說是人選都已經差不多可以的只是在董事長的部分目前還喬布隆這是事實嗎"},{"start":3246.684,"end":3267.398,"text":"事实上董事长我们不能决定因为按照公共电视法你不能决定但是高层可能就是在董事长部分还没有调好这是我们目前所收到的讯息为什么我这样说其实公事董事没人要接其实这有点让大家觉得你刚刚说的这个都是一个吃地不讨的工作可是你看公管集团总预算将近50亿耶"},{"start":3268.398,"end":3284.532,"text":"這個比民視的一年的總預算還要多你看民視一年總預算才30我拿這個來做比對公館有50億所以這50億這麼大的一個資源來說我們就來看看這麼多豐富的資源到底做出什麼樣的一個成績我現在必須要提出來"},{"start":3285.353,"end":3309.276,"text":"真的公司的这个触达率目前是呈现下降的一个趋势从2019到2023年触达率大概从77.8%现在降到69.7%而且内部员工的这个满意度其实也是不太高的更不要说你曾经待过的华氏这个问题非常的多我知道这个三个小时都讲不完但是呢这也是一个活生生的一个例子啊"},{"start":3310.557,"end":3326.085,"text":"虧損已經是達到了35.4那很重要的一個部分我們往下因為時間實在是太短了那這個審計部也不斷地告訴我們雖然每個人都有他的不同的說法但是部長你過去當過這個華視的總經理你很清楚所以說已經超過20年了你真的還要看我們的華視這樣被折磨嗎我覺得你給我一個書面報告未來該怎麼辦因為這邊都講不清楚"},{"start":3335.791,"end":3344.022,"text":"我比較需要問的就是去年我曾經質詢過公視要跟華視共同投資3000萬成立新創的AI公司目前狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":3345.47,"end":3363.405,"text":"委員報告一下就是因為在很多大家都有點懷疑這個3000萬來成立AI公司它的效能的情況下我們一直還在原地一直希望華視提出更多的一些解釋所以現在呢還在來來去去所以現在呢來來去去還在來來去去折磨中"},{"start":3367.148,"end":3380.787,"text":"你那是匆匆容容然后你是呢我看见你了就是匆匆容容因为我们一定要提醒他可不可以做虽然三千万都是所以我告诉你本席当初的质询所提出的质疑其实是有根据的因为你非常的没有"},{"start":3382.569,"end":3410.567,"text":"我就告诉你们公市华市为什么要做这样的事情但是现在有个更大的部分里面你们现在已经还没有选出新的董事所以我们认为你现在已经是到了所谓的看守那个的一个阶段但是呢你最近又要发出一个新的方案你们集资的六家有没有公市系统客语台华市中央社央广原住民六家每个人出资200万共计1200万要来进行台湾公共媒体启动AI的合作计划然后在2026年前完成你知道这件事吧"},{"start":3411.778,"end":3417.661,"text":"我也是看到媒體才知道這就不能用從從容容來決定都是我在這邊告訴你的部長好來你來看一下看守階段1200萬部長這已經是超過你們免公開這個限制性招標的最低的標準了這項合作計劃你們選定的標準是誰你們可以說跟誰合作這合作嗎然後呢這就要媒體跟合作廠商的權利義務到底是什麼我是不是可以了解一下是不是請許議長"},{"start":3441.675,"end":3468.569,"text":"我需要做最最一个了解而且很重要的是你们要给一千六两百万而且你们还要给他们这个很珍贵的这个所谓的影音资料影音资料到此为什么要怎么样被人家使用我们现在也还是不知道这给人家感觉里面非常很害怕你如果完全没有把这个细节搞清楚的话就好像我们的国土被盗卖一样而且里面还有一个聊天机器人这个国客会也有聊天机器人每个地方有聊天机器人你们一千两百万还要做这个机器人"},{"start":3469.309,"end":3487.286,"text":"那这机器人AI的机器人是在收集资料不是在判读这个资料的一个真或是伪当你们是用这个收集资料的时候其实收集的都是一些官方的语言然后到时候呢如果这官方语言有所偏差的话这对我们来说是一个很大的影响啊这1200万如何来落实已经是成型了吗"},{"start":3491.851,"end":3503.962,"text":"给谁已经成立了吗一千两百万你们完全在法的上面的话你们已经超出了这个范围呢你们有考虑过这个问题吗然后已经完成了吗"},{"start":3510.147,"end":3526.718,"text":"我需要把这整个空间全部具体的告诉我一下我觉得这部分对我来说的话这是非常重要我们不需要再花费这些额外的支出在你不是专业的范围之下我觉得这是非常重要的最后一分钟时间台湾plus目前来说台湾plus我还是要强调"},{"start":3527.739,"end":3557.151,"text":"你们那时候NCC的规定是你的新制作的新播率要达到25%这是NCC所规定的可是到目前为止10月28号新播率只有16%让人家觉得是有点像是老片台的感觉这件事情该怎么样来看待而且我说实在的我们一直给予很多的一个机会但是它整个的绩效来说产量来说成绩来说还有形象来说的话我觉得这个部分真的是有很大一个讨论的一个空间"},{"start":3557.671,"end":3559.452,"text":"而且呢有非常多的业界"},{"start":3587.551,"end":3602.944,"text":"你一個交代可以嗎可以謝謝委員了解嗎了解了解部長這樣可以嗎我剛所提出來的我不希望你你所主導的你非常擅長使用專業的這樣子不管是在華視不管在所有的我說的額外開闢的這1200萬然後呢再有關於台灣plus我剛"},{"start":3605.666,"end":3630.693,"text":"本心所質疑的這些問題我都希望透過書面的質詢的部分書面資料部分裡面很清楚的告訴我這些錢這些效率這些未來該怎麼改善這些都作為我們未來執行預算的時候最大的一個參考部長可以嗎沒問題我的要求應該是非常的合理委員你在這個質詢上非常專業也點到重點我們會寫個報告給你分析為什麼我們會花這個錢"},{"start":3632.549,"end":3646.812,"text":"對發個這個錢然後我們來看這就是當我們最後我們下一次來做預算的一個最大的一個參考好不好謝謝謝謝柯子安委員質詢部長請回座那請記得將書面的資料給柯子安委員辦公室接下來請范雲委員質詢好謝謝朝委有請部長請部長范委員你好"},{"start":3661.403,"end":3682.283,"text":"部長早安我想部長應該知道我們這屆金曼獎的得主是郎親我除了恭喜他之外我想跟部長還有大家分享的是他在頒獎典禮上的一段話讓我印象深刻他說在這本書還什麼都沒有的時候是文化部先看到他的"},{"start":3683.362,"end":3699.9,"text":"對於文化內容創作者來講今年其實蠻辛苦的部長之前談到今年預算被刪減時說眼淚往肚子裡吞然後郎妻說我們都有看你的眼淚往肚裡吞可是我們的眼淚是掉出來的"},{"start":3701.301,"end":3718.339,"text":"看到這句話的時候真的我想所有的人有感受的都會覺得非常的心酸再來我們看到今年菁英獎最佳搖滾專輯獎得主FAASFuture After a Second他在頒獎的時候說"},{"start":3720.322,"end":3737.643,"text":"創作人跟文化部不是要飯的我們每一個人都有每一個人的價值我們每一個人都是很認真的在寫歌所以我想剛剛那個部長稱讚柯志恩委員問得很專業他應該多跟陳玉琛委員還有羅志強等溝通"},{"start":3738.504,"end":3760.998,"text":"文化部的補助在每個世代真的幫助很多年輕樂團登大人其中一個就是FAAS這也是他講的我很謝謝文化部以來都在照顧臺灣的這些樂團因為每一場菁英獎的演出其實後面付出很大的努力這些都有它的價值並不是要飯的"},{"start":3761.838,"end":3777.483,"text":"我想今天有這麼多得獎人在台上感謝文化部不是一個偶然因為大家都有看到部長是怎麼捍衛文化的預算所以我今天想跟部長問的是跟這次刪減的影響"},{"start":3779.042,"end":3795.951,"text":"今年度114年度我們辦公室整理原編列290億元共刪除11億元凍結34億元這是文化部史上最高的刪結及凍結數我記得非常深刻的是我聽到卓院長講"},{"start":3798.152,"end":3826.061,"text":"李遠部長您是怎麼樣跟他要預算的您真的不管是寫紙條給他一直想要讓文化部能夠得到比過去歷屆更多的預算可是呢這個心願好像沒有如願喔那在刪減之後我們也看到王小麗 楊麗周等來我們立法院抗議文化部預算招大幅刪減可是很不幸的除了當場被陳玉珍回嗆之外"},{"start":3826.661,"end":3848.491,"text":"王小弟等還在網路上因為站出來被大量攻擊那當然我們還是謝謝他們站出來因為本來會被刪減得更慘那後來我們整理一下還是被刪掉的公視及台灣plus2.43億聯合典藏庫房1億元全數刪掉然後媒體宣傳費5943萬"},{"start":3851.152,"end":3860.597,"text":"也是全部刪除黑潮計畫有搶救回來不少可是還是刪了4000萬我算了一下是13.8%那還有呢"},{"start":3864.338,"end":3893.459,"text":"雖然我們的藍白委員常常在轉型正義的議題上說他們很支持只是原住民的也要一起納入可是中正紀念堂的轉型正義經費這個三千萬就被刪除了所以這個工作好像只能暫停表演藝術兩千萬 中央社一千六百萬還有呢過去文化部跟國家人權博物館補助的公民團體文化論壇人權活動等預算也被刪除"},{"start":3894.019,"end":3920.259,"text":"那这些总共被删的是十亿亿元我想它不只是预算书上的数字可能潜在的像刚刚我们的金曼奖得主这些得主的经费都有可能被删所以其实今天我是希望给部长一个机会讲清楚因为我看到您在争取追加预算的时候罗志强完全不理会您讲的话"},{"start":3921.299,"end":3939.155,"text":"然後各部會都有追加文化部得到最少所以剛剛有委員說他們都非常的支持文化我想我們還是要把帳算一算因為部長你講說今年的預算書處處是彈孔我想問部長哪個彈孔最大然後怎麼補"},{"start":3941.226,"end":3957.262,"text":"哪一个弹孔最大以我刚刚算出来的好 整体来讲其实我们作为文化部它其实有很多预算就放在各种场馆的维修跟营运上还有例行的业务费用里面如果你删了我任何一笔"},{"start":3958.203,"end":3974.892,"text":"那这个计划本来就要执行的最后我怎么办呢就跟企业募款譬如说年初我们很多活动本来就跟去年继续下去要出国的钱你如果把我删了我们每个单位出去就跟企业去募款部长可不可以举个例子"},{"start":3976.272,"end":3994.859,"text":"聽說我知道像那個宣傳費用對不對就是也被刪掉可是很多人包含最近天下雜誌都有報導我們的大阪世界博覽會就是所謂的不是正式的臺灣館就是它的表現非常好你們是怎麼補足這些彈孔的"},{"start":3995.319,"end":4016.138,"text":"是这个就是我要讲的民间本身主动发起了一个募款活动然后帮我们做广告因为我们的没宣费一被删掉之后事实上我们非常吃力因为我们没有钱做任何广告队伍去了花了钱去了可是告知不够但是我觉得我非常感动就是民间的"},{"start":4018.151,"end":4045.008,"text":"他们看到前面已经花了这些钱来做筹备可是你出去的时候没有宣传所以他们就发起了一波又一波的宣传然后其实我都不知道他们发起以后我才知道然后让我们能够补足了这一部分就是在今年这么辛苦的这一年里面还好有很多民间团体还有企业帮我们补足了一些我们本来就该花的钱我要声明的就是其实刚刚讲到"},{"start":4045.828,"end":4074.075,"text":"那些文化人為什麼很感謝文化部是因為每當一個文化政策做對的時候它就影響這個產業譬如漫畫之所以會對是因為2018年開始有漫畫的這個講座每一個產業都因為某一次的政策對了它就一直持續下去所以我為什麼覺得文化部總預算來講它是不高的它占整個台灣的所有預算都是1%都不到那很難得"},{"start":4074.995,"end":4102.198,"text":"行政院願意讓我的預算到300億左右然後可是我們的能量是一直在擴大我們的活動越來越多它不是今年比去年多的問題它是活動越來越多很多公共建設很多對外活動那我們都靠自己來克服它只要多給我們一點點這個宣傳預算我們就可以做得更好所以為什麼今年把我們砍掉最佳預算2.8億"},{"start":4104.338,"end":4107.107,"text":"其实里面就是有宣传费他就是不让我们花"},{"start":4108.601,"end":4137.593,"text":"所以他就是要部長去找企業家協助就對了自己部長除了要匯做事還要匯募款我覺得他們對於宣傳費有個錯誤的想說我們來大內宣其實我們每一筆錢都花在活動的宣傳比如文化幣如果你不給我錢我文化幣已經偏了很多預算我如何告訴別人說我有文化幣今年我們如果降到13到15歲我如何告訴別人我們有這個活動那部長"},{"start":4139.134,"end":4160.513,"text":"就是说很庆幸看到你们还有能力找民间协助要不然像我刚刚讲的大阪世界博览会这么重要的一个国际宣传的场合落魁就不好了那有没有哪些部分是到现在为止被迫终止或者你们还在努力的因为时间到了30秒内部长可以告诉我们吗"},{"start":4162.014,"end":4180.363,"text":"其实我们大部分的平均在每个业务非常多不够然后被迫终止我们就用别的方式比如说刚才讲到那个点残的没有过以后我们就用其他的地方去补足但是都是捉襟见触我觉得文化部就是这样子你把预算编少了"},{"start":4181.483,"end":4207.437,"text":"對我們同仁來講他少一點工作但是大家都會很急迫的想多做一點其實我們之前的拉扯就是你多給一點錢我們要多做更多事情可是剛好台灣的文化就在這個點上開始很多百花齊放很需要多一點活動包括對外走到國外去宣傳台灣的文化到國外去所有人都非常努力你只要多給一點點錢我們就可以多一點宣傳 對"},{"start":4208.297,"end":4230.503,"text":"那部長我的結論就是請文化部繼續讓狼妻FAAS這樣優秀的創作者被臺灣跟被世界看到那如果藍白委員有什麼不合理的要求那部長您要讓他們知道他們傷害的是我們文化的創作者要繼續大聲講出來好 謝謝謝謝范雲委員質詢部長請回座接下來請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":4246.785,"end":4249.528,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請李部長請李院部長"},{"start":4256.153,"end":4278.447,"text":"李委員你好部長好我想首先要跟您再次恭喜鐵海映這部動人的劇集榮獲了五項大獎那我想創作者用實力跟行動來證明身在民主的台灣戲劇可以不為任何人而做那我們同時享有"},{"start":4279.775,"end":4295.893,"text":"回首榮耀跟不堪的自由部長您上任到現在也一年多了不知道這一年來你會不會覺得自己的生命歷程似乎跟國民黨對藝文產業的介入脫不了關係"},{"start":4297.956,"end":4314.351,"text":"年輕的時候您在中營受國民黨文工會的內容審查到現在擔任文化部長您所支持的一些形形色色的文化內容也會遭受國民黨跟他的附屬組織的政治攻擊"},{"start":4315.572,"end":4343.612,"text":"那在我們才剛經歷過這個藍白預算之亂中那文化部對作品與藝文團體的補助又或者是文策院作品的投審程序都成為藍白兩黨惡意攻擊的目標那我想這些立委我想必須可能需要讓部長替他們上一課歷史課才能明白我們今天這些創作自由是得來多麼的不容易"},{"start":4344.332,"end":4372.617,"text":"那是不是可以請部長簡單跟我們分享一下過去您在中影那一份電影企劃書寫完後是如何遭到這個層層的篩選跟審查那另外大家耳熟能詳的光陰的故事這個企劃書是由您來撰寫那當初這個企劃書為什麼必須要表揚政府必須讓它表面上是一個政策片部長可不可以簡單回答"},{"start":4373.288,"end":4390.302,"text":"好 但是那個因為時代的關係以前是一個威權時代所以黨政軍是同一個單位在控制的所以那時候要拍電影的話一定要由國民黨的專案電影公司拍它擁有最大的資源擁有十多家戲院擁有片場 擁有創意場"},{"start":4391.463,"end":4412.356,"text":"那如果你要拍電影必須進去那他進去當然因為他是國民黨機構他層層要把關到最後到文工會的編審不同意的話這個案子就不能做所以那時候我進綜藝的時候大概30歲不到有人告訴我說你不要進去因為你什麼都做不成因為你的職位很低你的案子會一直送上去都被打槍"},{"start":4413.777,"end":4432.213,"text":"但是運氣非常好就是那個時候電影剛好不景氣給了我們機會於是我們就送了一些我們想做的案子那跟過去那個愛國片啊宣傳片完全不一樣的一群就是後來所謂的台灣新浪潮就是回到對台灣社會的關心對政治的批判那"},{"start":4433.602,"end":4461.432,"text":"當然我們就在那邊中間被追殺了因為後來我們拍出那個兒子大玩偶這個國民黨要把它禁掉但是因為民間很多聲音救了我們所以我很深的感覺就是當這個潮流當民主的潮流往前進的時候誰也阻擋不了所以我們在國民黨時代經歷了過程以後我們終於自己闖出一條路來讓台灣的電影走向國際這一點我覺得很欣慰換句話說"},{"start":4462.532,"end":4489.437,"text":"在任何一個時候我們只要把持自己的理想往前走那我們所遇到的問題還是會克服我必須要講預算的審查在我們原來教育委員會是很順利的我們只刪了兩千萬所以我不忍心去抱怨在我們教委委員會中的在野黨因為他只刪兩千萬真正的問題出在到大會之後他隨便亂刪譬如說公共電視23億"},{"start":4492.421,"end":4511.062,"text":"我覺得我們之間不是敵人吧我們執政黨跟在野黨是在同一條船上所以再來又是預算會期了我想部長是不是在這裡要有一些提醒跟呼籲我其實一定會努力的解釋就是捍衛每一筆預算我很想要講的是"},{"start":4512.259,"end":4525.64,"text":"执政党也好 战友党也好没有人会永远执政这个文化是属于大家的我们不是敌人嘛我们敌人在别的地方我们都不是敌人那你为什么要打压台湾的文化这点我一直没有懂"},{"start":4526.377,"end":4544.803,"text":"了解 好那我想再來實現關係我再來跟部長請教AI的問題大家可能想說AI這個科技問題怎麼會來問文化部長那實質上AI的發展就是它的基礎就是文化內容那它不僅牽涉到如何保障著作權的問題"},{"start":4545.563,"end":4560.9,"text":"那長遠而來他又是台灣文化軟實力的展現那也是要如何影響全世界的問題所以我們翻開我們即將要審查的這個文化部的預算書我們就會發現明年度的預算他新增了許多"},{"start":4561.44,"end":4581.682,"text":"過去我們沒有的AI的相關的業務的應用所以很可見就是說AI的時代已經來臨所以文化部要拿出什麼樣的策略來因應變得非常重要讓我們放眼國際那個美國的紐約時報跟日本的朝日新聞還有日經新聞他都紛紛向AI的公司提出侵權的告訴"},{"start":4582.723,"end":4603.798,"text":"可敬AI新技術的到來連帶也為文化內容產業帶來一個新的衝擊新聞媒體可能是一個最顯著的案例AI像一個雙面刃它正面意義上當然它在網路網際網路上有更廣泛的促進了資料跟文化內容的共享"},{"start":4604.198,"end":4631.414,"text":"可是在負面的意義上他就有侵權的疑慮必須要被妥善解決那在文化部的立場我們該要如何推動AI發展才能夠跟世界分享台灣文化內容的同時保護這個台灣創作者的權益不被侵害又或者這樣講說辦理AI的相關應用業務的時候文化部要怎麼確保自己不會成為帶頭侵權的政府單位"},{"start":4632.813,"end":4654.004,"text":"這一點就是我們已經在今年公布了一個文化藝術應用生成式的AI指引是透過這個指引告訴所有創作者他在怎麼樣在他的創作中要用AI生成又避免他的侵權另外我們本身由文化部提供給這個速發部還有國科會這個"},{"start":4655.985,"end":4684.922,"text":"主权AI的内容已经提供了非政府开放资料大概有165项属于政府的开放资料有370项第二波已经开始进行到第二波盘点在这个盘点过程中我们几乎是每一笔都要拥有著作权或者没有侵权本身我们在规划很多国际趋势这个部分在我们未来的文化产业中也会用到的AI目前在研究中"},{"start":4685.382,"end":4714.343,"text":"是 好那像今年九月包含公共電視 華視 中央社央廣 圓明台 客家電視台公視台與台它要攜手來這個攜手來啟動這個AI這個Chatbot的這個合作計畫那等於說它是用大公廣的概念來集結這個台灣具公信力的這個媒體機構來共同建置資訊可靠的AI的聊天機器人那所以這個"},{"start":4715.363,"end":4743.196,"text":"當然這個就是提高可信資訊的這個傳播力那也可以加速公共媒體的數位轉型當然這個是一個很重要的示範效應所以這個AI這個確保的這個計畫我充分反映出這個公共媒體存在的價值跟意義那順利的話好像是2026的年底可以完成那我想無論是開發又或者後續的維運我想都需要經費"},{"start":4744.737,"end":4769.722,"text":"所以自公共電視法修正之後拿掉這個捐贈經費長年來的上限之後那我想確實公廣集團他必須要有一定程度的營運的彈性那可是常態性的捐贈一直維持在修法前的9億那我想請問部長你是不是跟胡董事長有探討過究竟這個常態性的捐贈要如何設定才能合理"},{"start":4771.638,"end":4786.797,"text":"其实说来蛮悲哀的就是这个9亿本来是个天花板拿掉之后还是9亿然后大家听到的其他二十几亿是因为有台语台的8亿和少台的6亿还有台湾plus6.5亿前三期等等"},{"start":4787.418,"end":4808.792,"text":"所以原來在公共電視所能夠用的錢還是9億我非常感謝委員提到這件事因為我自己在大公管集團工作過公共電視在1998年成立到現在一直是用這樣的錢在工作包括增加多少人然後多少工作所以我當然希望他能夠在委員支持下我們提高這個天花板"},{"start":4811.55,"end":4832.011,"text":"最後30秒主席不好意思還是要跟部長探討一下已經講到都會背的中人紀念堂轉型的問題我想轉型正義確實是記憶跟遺忘的鬥爭在具體落實轉型讓大家集體意識到國家的力量去紀念獨裁者是多麼的不公不義"},{"start":4834.333,"end":4852.857,"text":"會一直講 一直講 一直講當然我覺得這真的非常重要那部長 感謝就是說現在三軍儀隊已經撤出中任進行堂堂體喔那可是我們應該也沒有藉口說要讓民眾像進建皇帝一樣爬上階梯仰望獨裁者所以"},{"start":4853.717,"end":4880.537,"text":"可是中文紀念堂又是一個外國人會去的地方那他們看到我們在彰顯這個緬懷獨裁者的這個動作我覺得會丟臉丟到國際這樣的文化外交其實是不倫不類所以我建議具體建議中文紀念堂它有油壓大門有五層樓高那為了紀念獨裁者每年都要必須讓這個工作人員冒著生命的危險爬到同門上面去檢修保養"},{"start":4881.437,"end":4909.86,"text":"四次那檢查保養的項目包括這個易壓系統啦什麼鋼索啦銅門啦軌道等等有49個細項部長我覺得為了一個獨裁者那每天開門開關廟門讓人家受人膜拜要求全民繳稅做這些繁瑣的工作我是覺得非常的荒唐所以想請文化部來研議看看或者是否可以承諾在中正紀念堂落實轉型前維持堂體大門的關閉"},{"start":4911.121,"end":4919.73,"text":"在轉型過渡期盡量減少對政治受難者家屬的傷害和羞辱這是我的建議 那布小部長你怎麼看"},{"start":4921.781,"end":4948.78,"text":"行政院有一个转型正义汇报非常确定就是未来中正经验堂走向一个历史记忆还有人权教育的一个民主的这个民主教育园区那它这是一个不可能改变的一个趋势那过程中包括空间刚刚委员提到的空间要不要把门关起来或者空间的改造去除威权的形象还有我们的活动我们的展演"},{"start":4949.6,"end":4966.449,"text":"就朝這個方向過去但是委員你剛剛講的關這個門我們會也是在我們的也許一步一步走到一個程度是大家可以接受的時候我們就往空間改造往空間改造來思考但是跟委員報告就是我們一直朝向把"},{"start":4967.009,"end":4993.275,"text":"中央經濟團跟人權的議題綁在一起我們有一個中央經濟團有個戲院剛才演完人權電影還有泛台語片諸如此類我希望讓觀光客也慢慢走進這個中央經濟團以後大概了解這個我們台灣的民主的過程這個是一個我們下一下一波要努力的事情好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝林一金委員質詢部長請回座"},{"start":4995.919,"end":5017.047,"text":"接下来请万美玲委员咨询好 谢谢赵伟我们有请部长请部长万伟你好好 部长早部长"},{"start":5018.072,"end":5046.614,"text":"我想這個文化的工作從你上任到現在你有沒有覺得其實項目非常多樣貌非常廣其實工作壓力其實也蠻大的其實還好耶因為我覺得文化工作所以工作壓力不大項目也不多樣貌也不廣不是 應該這樣講我來之後告訴自己說文化工作就是一波接一波的沒關係 我相信很好就是說你也說到了嘛一波接一波其實很多事情要做嘛溫馨無愧就好這樣"},{"start":5047.919,"end":5068.099,"text":"當然問心無愧難道問心有愧的來做這件事嗎所以但是呢我想部長我要提醒您就是說這個是應該你對自己要有期許我們對你也是要有期許就是說文化的工作其實非常多不管今天要把台灣這個文化藉由這個文化外交各方面的這個形式讓世界看到台灣就是第一個第二個"},{"start":5068.559,"end":5087.79,"text":"我們怎麼讓台灣的文化不管在這個素質上面在習慣上面的養成在深度廣度我們在台灣內部我們也要加強我想這點都同意所以我覺得其實不會有太多的時間去搞意識形態其實應該回到這個文化的主體那我這樣的說法您同意嗎"},{"start":5089.989,"end":5116.848,"text":"非常同意因為我自己就走過一個威權時代剛剛前面一個委員徵詢我我就是在國民黨時代有有有剛才也聽你就是回憶了回憶了一下許多年前的歷史但我覺得說文化還是回到文化主體比較好我想在教育文化委員會的這些委員們或許大家有不一樣的看法有些人很喜歡談意識形態但有很多人其實就是非常兢兢業業的在協助文化部"},{"start":5117.248,"end":5145.404,"text":"怎麼樣子來把我們文化部的這個業務做好那我們也都非常支持文化部的預算但支持預算是一件事但監督預算的使用是一件事那我相信部長對於我們的監督也是非常樂於啊然後跟我們不管是執政或在野的委員大家來密切的配合嘛好 那我想我們就回到今天本席要質詢的正題我們看到今天大家也都在談這個公事我請教一下部長按照公事法"},{"start":5146.064,"end":5166.772,"text":"公事董事的任期多久你不清楚我三年對三年喔為什麼要有任期啊為什麼要有任期啊按照公事法任期滿了之後這些董事跟監事可以繼續到下一期"},{"start":5167.659,"end":5182.105,"text":"好像是這樣子但是為什麼要制定一個任期呢就是怕其實也沒有為什麼沒有為什麼想制定就制定不想制定就不要制定想一尋就一尋不想一尋就不要一尋因為辦法上好像沒有規定一定要換部長我想我跟您講一下"},{"start":5183.025,"end":5204.085,"text":"這回去以後你可以再看一下我們規定要三年改選其實恐怕是我們也希望這個董事還是要有一個任期那可以保持我們公視一個獨立性那同時我們定期的接受這個審查跟更換那我們也可以落實對公視營運的相關的監督這一些大概都是有任期我們希望達到一個作用"},{"start":5204.906,"end":5218.021,"text":"因此這個任期到了我們按照這個公示法也就是今天你都有提到的在借滿前的這個六個月我們就要開始把這個作業把它完成但現在已經就是delay了將近十個月的時間那"},{"start":5220.484,"end":5246.262,"text":"在這個這當中有從媒體本身有看到一個就是說您早上也有提到說這個選任困難的經驗讓很多專業人士卻步早上我有聽您這樣講但是文化部當時也有出來表達說因為被徵詢的人不願意因為選任而被羞辱這句話是您可以看一下這句話是媒體文化部的回應這也是您的這個說法嗎"},{"start":5249.099,"end":5263.358,"text":"这话是我说的没有错那请问一下是谁羞辱了这些被征询的人怎么被羞辱了你这个用词本身要提醒你是非常的重我一定要举个例子就是我一再觉得公共媒体"},{"start":5264.179,"end":5281.152,"text":"是一個要非常被尊敬的公管集團每一個董事部長我今天時間有限要尊敬這件事情不用再講我們都知道要尊敬你說他們是因為被羞辱所以多婉拒請問一下他們曾經怎樣被羞辱可能怎樣會被羞辱"},{"start":5282.073,"end":5297.527,"text":"所以一份工作它沒有任何好處看到前面的人你這樣回答就是在消耗我的時間啦就你這句話你既然今天也說了說因為他們會被羞辱所以他們被玩具那這個很嚴重我想請教一下你認為這些審查委員會怎麼羞辱他們"},{"start":5300.069,"end":5324.681,"text":"我不曉得那你既然不曉得你怎麼可以說是因為會怕羞辱呢可是過去的經驗中過去的經驗有兩次都是一千天有兩次是一千天然後有一次是四十九個人刷掉三十個人部長本席要跟您說嚴格審查跟被羞辱是兩件截然不同的事情我們要提醒你你今天下這個結論太重了他的地位都蠻高的還是會被刷掉"},{"start":5325.501,"end":5349.799,"text":"很多人答這樣真你也不能這樣講啊因為他地位很高所以提出來就一定要問連審查都不能審查當然可以審但是他本身會對嘛所以請您具體講一下嘛羞辱是怎樣羞辱嘛什麼叫做羞辱就說他沒資格做嘛什麼你沒資格做董事嘛OK所以你現在的意思是說提出來以後如果審查委員認為他沒有資格這就是一種羞辱那以後你提出來就不需要審查委員啦"},{"start":5351.019,"end":5378.482,"text":"就不用審查了嘛所以一審查就是羞辱按照你的說法所以過程中非常辛苦就是他們都跟我這樣講為什麼我要被提名之後被抓掉部長我想喔這個我可能要仔細跟你溝通一下我想你也非常了解喔在我們過去的相處當中你知道我是一個非常理性也非常尊重文化部的人但是呢今天你說這個不願意被選任是因為被羞辱是您的說法喔我非常不以為然不能接受喔只因為提出一個人選"},{"start":5379.122,"end":5387.271,"text":"然後大家有審查審查時間比較久一點或者甚至於審查界我認為不是認你就認為這是一個羞辱這我們不能接受你願意收回這樣的話嗎我把羞辱兩個字修改成"},{"start":5393.908,"end":5417.885,"text":"痛苦因為任何一個人被我們選中的人他都在他那個領域中幾乎是頂尖的人然後聽大家七嘴八舌把他刷掉很沒有面子你願意把這個羞辱改成痛苦我把羞辱改成痛苦好了本席也接受但真的不能講羞辱如果去審查就是羞辱本席跟你講了搞不好大家還都不願意來做這個審查委員了因為只要一審查這個人被扣上一個盜帽子說你去羞辱人家這不好啦 部長"},{"start":5418.706,"end":5444.496,"text":"好 接下來呢 你剛剛提了很多就是說現在有這麼多的原因喔但是呢 終究我們還是要把人選提出來嘛那你怎麼解決這個問題呢其實齁 我跟委員報告我們這個 這個甄選過程是在那個時間到了前半年就開始選我知道 我知道 背景不用再講你怎麼解決這個問題現在我解決啊還是行政院不提你就也沒辦法呀這個"},{"start":5445.476,"end":5469.128,"text":"其實這個名單應該是行政院提了之後交給立法院我們是屬於作業機構所以就是如果行政院不提你也束手無策我們每一個名單都跟行政院很仔細的討論過這樣子吧 部長我請教你一下現在到底有幾個人選是已經確定的還差幾個人選我可以跟委員報告差不多只差一個了"},{"start":5469.488,"end":5487.835,"text":"只差一個那很好啊那如果只差一個那就麻煩部長吹一吹吧好不好趕快去吹一下跟行政院溝通一下就只差一個人選大家再努力一下好不好這可以做得到嗎我會努力好謝謝你的努力喔那最後我想再跟你提一下文化禮金喔我們看到這個文化禮金"},{"start":5488.015,"end":5517.139,"text":"文化币也算是我们文化部一个蛮有成果的一个政策但是呢我们的领取率始终都没有办法往上提升112年89%113年86%那么到现在为止大概84%真的是比较低那我们要去思考一下怎么样把它往上冲高那第二个呢我们今年开始试办13到15岁每人发放600块但是到目前为止领取率大概只有63%这非常的低啊可不可以简单说明一下"},{"start":5518.75,"end":5544.429,"text":"当初我们要把这个年龄降到13到15岁的时候本来就会有很多人提出说他们知不知道他可以领第二个他们如何领那后来我们还是往下做的原因是我一直觉得这个文化这个东西往下降对不是啊我只是要问您说只有63.5%为什么啦63.5%的确是跟16到22岁的比起来比较少但是我个人认为少多了"},{"start":5546.15,"end":5561.509,"text":"63.5表示說10個裡面有6個人知道了那其實對13到15歲國小生跟國中生我覺得這個成績我們可以再充斥最後兩個月而且我們最近也找到體育部一起努力來讓這個告知多一點人知道"},{"start":5561.949,"end":5578.505,"text":"部長所以我想前面的80幾%我們再努力一下63.5%好的政策拜託想辦法跟教育部合作怎麼樣讓13到15歲呢這領取率提高那最後一個那個不好意思30秒就好您剛剛提到說跟李遠部長有一個遠洋合作對不對"},{"start":5580.546,"end":5597.571,"text":"對好但是呢這個遠洋合作是說如果10月31號以前我們宣布加碼文化這個文化幣跟這個動資券對不對也就是說你在11月30號之前你把這個文化幣跟動資券屬於你的權益你都把它消費完了我們鼓勵消費嘛那文化部加碼200塊的文化幣"},{"start":5599.551,"end":5615.953,"text":"然后呢这个体育部可能就是100块动资券嘛那部长我想请教一下我们以目前现在看来将近有162万人领取了文化币如果我们都符合的话那这个增加的这个200块钱乘起来本席帮你算一下要3.24亿猜约哪里来"},{"start":5617.403,"end":5633.722,"text":"沒有那麼多啦沒有到三點多所以你認為大家都不會用完一半不是我們大概估算過大概六七千萬六七千萬所以你認為會用完的人這麼少也不是那是什麼其實已經用完的人蠻多的但是剩下一些我們想"},{"start":5634.483,"end":5661.394,"text":"吃雞他在11月底用完了來來來這個我不要讓那個交委為難部長你這個數學你有問題啊一回又說大家都會都用完了那一回又說只會有六七千萬的預算但六七千萬乘回去就是都沒用完啊所以你這個數學大有問題喔所以我要提醒您說如果我們希望這樣鼓勵他們也就是希望他們最好都能用完那如果都能用完的情況之下你裁員在哪裡會後給本席一個說明好嗎是沒問題好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5663.475,"end":5671.44,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員質詢 部長請回座接下來請羅廷維委員質詢謝謝主席 有請國美館陳館長請陳館長也有請部長 請李部長"},{"start":5691.978,"end":5691.998,"text":"先館長館長"},{"start":5695.687,"end":5721.482,"text":"館長我上任以來一直努力推動這個爭取故宮國寶遊台中那這個展覽希望讓地方的民眾能夠有機會在台中看到故宮的一個典藏文物這不只是讓國寶走出山水走出城市更是中央文化的資源與地方能量的結合重要的一個表現所以在之前都是向故宮爭取故宮很有意願也有編列相關的一個預算"},{"start":5722.443,"end":5733.451,"text":"那很難得有機會本席也想親自向館長爭取想請問一下館長目前這項展覽是否已經進入到初步討論國美館對於這個項目是不是支持"},{"start":5734.657,"end":5753.312,"text":"委員好 關於委員所提到的這個展覽其實我們已經進行了就是我本人跟故宮的院長已經進行最起碼兩次以上的會談我們現在的檔期是2027年的暑假也就是7月到9月的這個當中因為這個是一個最好的檔期"},{"start":5753.892,"end":5767.582,"text":"對 那也考量到暑假的時候對 然後也考量到就是說暑假的這個當中可能親子的觀眾會比較多所以我們也已經就是由故宮的書畫處的處長跟器物處的處長跟本館的展覽組的組長共同組成一個策展小組已經有策展小組"},{"start":5774.767,"end":5793.375,"text":"已经有策展小组而且我们也已经讨论到由于这个暑假当中亲子会比较喜欢动物所以呢会以动物为题材动物园的一个方式去呈现对然后有书画就是主要以这个七成的书画作品跟三成的器物的这个作品为我们的内容好谢谢你目前的进度是这样"},{"start":5793.775,"end":5808.494,"text":"本席對於這一項的計畫的初步的結構是非常的樂觀其成因為暑假親子然後又是動物園的一個方式去呈現這樣子的一個展物那我想這類的巡展規模不小"},{"start":5808.914,"end":5828.885,"text":"但是從商品的一個借調 對不起 展品的借調 保險 安保整個展場的設置 布展都需要相當長的一個準備期所以策展小組非常重要 要提早定位 提早去了解所以這個部分聽到你們有著手開始策展小組我想相關的預算編列應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":5830.274,"end":5856.746,"text":"要請委員幫忙會支持但是你要編列啊有 已經在處理當中因為國美館其實在之前就有跟故宮合作的一個經驗我們2019年的時候2018年的時候也有大概7年8年左右的時間了所以我想在上一次這個豐富的經驗當中如果在您的任內讓國寶猶台中再一次的登場我想這不僅讓民眾能夠接近國家級的藝術資產"},{"start":5858.567,"end":5880.679,"text":"更重要的是讓國美館在全國藝文網路中有一個全新的亮點尤其我們剛剛說的暑假 親子 動物來呈現所以我在委員會會持續的爭取相關的預算來幫忙協助也希望國美館能夠全力的配合盡早啟動已經在啟動策展了但是能夠盡早的把這些都全部大綱底定我們會更樂觀啟程這個好嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":5883.28,"end":5906.947,"text":"另外想就叫部長部長對於藝人最近的散兵案昨天也有藝人自己自首那我想之前你也有在媒體上也有詢問你也有回應對於未來有可能說獎項撤回或者是暫緩資格相關的機制你們內部會做一個討論目前有沒有什麼具體的方案"},{"start":5909.793,"end":5933.248,"text":"我謝謝委員問這個問題因為這個問題發展到昨天有藝人自動出來承認他曾經犯的錯誤我覺得對我來講藝人覺得自己過去做錯這件事情很勇敢的面對他做錯這件事情跟社會道歉在我們台灣這個社會一個包容跟"},{"start":5934.589,"end":5948.78,"text":"善良的社会还有民主自由的社会我觉得这是一件好事那至于您刚才提到要不要把它撤回这件事其实我们非常积极的已经跟三组人在谈一个就是金马奖一个金钟奖一个金曲奖"},{"start":5949.44,"end":5974.676,"text":"大體上委員們給我們的回饋大部分的意見都是說在辦法上我們給一個獎出去都是在那一年給在技術方面他表現得最好的那一群評審委員評完之後其中也有人曾經考慮過這個藝人有過剛剛你講的這些問題那他們也把這個東西考慮進去了結果把它頒給他以後我們"},{"start":5975.957,"end":5991.511,"text":"過了幾年之後或者把它收回來這個理由非常不足回頭看金馬獎從來沒收回過金鐘獎也沒有過就是因為在辦法上大家都承認我們給的是在那一年度表現最好的某一項"},{"start":5992.897,"end":6019.885,"text":"這件事情我跟委員要講的就是剛剛我提到說藝人其實他對自己的期待應該是對社會有影響力他應該要承認自己的錯誤然後他應該表現得更高的要求自己更高能夠讓他的粉絲或者讓社會觀感更好這一點我覺得才是一個正面的讓藝人會有人主動出來認錯我覺得這個算是比過去進步"},{"start":6020.545,"end":6033.637,"text":"這樣子啊讓我打斷你一下我並不是主張一定要獎項撤回啦那我要講的是說其實我也能夠認同當時他在這個項目一定是非常卓越的表現獲得了該獎項那"},{"start":6035.299,"end":6061.353,"text":"那今天他有爆發出這樣的事情我們感到很遺憾但要不要到整個獎項收回這個你應該要專業討論你剛剛也有說找這個三金相關的人事啊或者是評審討論過但我要講說不一定是收回也有可能用其他的方式去回饋整個社會去協助正面的一個宣導甚至是加強國軍的招募這是我一直以來在努力的"},{"start":6061.653,"end":6086.263,"text":"希望就是讓藝人投入國軍招募的一些正面形象來做一個挽回所以是不是直接的懲罰我覺得社會大眾都可以討論那也希望您能夠朝向說不一定是直接的懲罰而是間接的回饋整個社會形象的加強這部分也希望你能夠具體的來討論這部分"},{"start":6088.104,"end":6115.987,"text":"委員這個建議真的非常好我覺得許多事情剛發生的時候你覺得它是個壞事可是經過大家討論有藝人站出來道歉然後未來也許國防部在增兵的時候他可以用到藝人來做我覺得這個idea非常好他可以用這樣子的方向來拍劇或者是拍宣導片甚至是有機會把它做成一個教材我坦白講我在國防委員會我就講我說我以前是看那個新兵日記"},{"start":6117.088,"end":6143.013,"text":"被騙去當兵的因為新兵日記看起來都很歡樂就進去實際上是並沒有這麼歡樂但我要講的是相關的一些影視作業如果出來讓年輕人能夠看到我覺得這有助於尤其我要再一次強調我們去韓國韓國是一堆年輕人穿著軍服在類似台北的西門町這種大街逛街為什麼"},{"start":6143.593,"end":6166.393,"text":"他认为他穿着军服是骄傲的是走在街头不会被歧视的我们要怎么样去打造这样子的一个观感文化部我觉得需要协助国防部所以艺人的一个协助参与这部分我希望您能够去把它列为在这一次能够讨论机制里面好不好这给您参考一下"},{"start":6167.66,"end":6188.639,"text":"其实台湾第一部军交片就是我写的成功领上我蛮有经验的您的建议非常好我们跟国安部来谈谈看再拜托您谢谢另外想跟您请问就是台中国家歌剧院简单来讲就是国家歌剧院我们整个台中将它交给了中央以后"},{"start":6190.021,"end":6204.842,"text":"當時都希望地方的權益跟共享的機制要實際的落實那我們看到在民國91年推動的重大文化建設也是我們重大的文化地景最初的構想就是台中的文化中心"},{"start":6205.743,"end":6221.424,"text":"那當時又隨著中央文化的建設計畫介入整個逐步升格為國家級的表演藝術場館103年完工以後啟用成為全國矚目的文化地標但在這個地方我們看到了"},{"start":6222.445,"end":6241.49,"text":"這段時間裡面地方普遍感受不到不是共榮而是被邊緣化為什麼會這樣子覺得你聽聽看當年台中市議會附帶9項意見為前提通過無償捐贈文化部的一個決議明確要求"},{"start":6242.29,"end":6266.658,"text":"保障地方的權益包括董事會納入台中代表至少三成的黨旗要保留地方團體以及中央應該補助回饋地方建設等但至今為止我們看到多數條件並不能夠落實事實上早在103年立法院就有立法委員在質詢地方就已經明確的表達過三項的期待"},{"start":6267.574,"end":6279.149,"text":"我再講一次就是包含總監英語中部的藝術來做一個發展連結董事會應該有地方的席次我想請問一下部長您知道目前董事會有沒有台中代表嗎"},{"start":6280.885,"end":6304.736,"text":"有兩席哪兩席請說我們有黃國榮跟蔡長海董事好我想這個文化跟藝術方面的一個連結這兩位董事當然是地方人士我們當然都能夠認同但是我們更希望台中能夠就像您剛剛說的有文化藝術的背景能夠再更加的加強"},{"start":6305.416,"end":6322.927,"text":"不是說這兩位不夠而是說能不能再更加努力的增加席次讓台中的連結能夠加深我必須要講我們更希望文化部能夠落實當年的條件檢討現在的治理架構能夠真正讓地方能夠參與來決策包括最近我在拜託"},{"start":6324.315,"end":6341.817,"text":"我們台中的國小小朋友想要到這個國家歌劇院前面的廣場閃眼五分鐘閃眼在前面的廣場不是到裡面正式的舞台歌劇院給我的回覆是沒辦法你要用租的"},{"start":6343.093,"end":6359.285,"text":"國小的小朋友我覺得這個部分能不能給他們一些機會今天我不是只是為了一個孩子每個國家都要培育孩子的文化藝術給他們一些舞台這些孩子哪有辦法去正式的一個舞台去租用去做表演給他們一些榮耀感"},{"start":6360.166,"end":6372.986,"text":"所以這個部分我希望部長能夠不管是我剛剛所說的一個個案所衍生出來的一個文化教育到現在台中的連結地方的回饋我希望部長您可以重視這個會後能不能給我一些回應"},{"start":6374.585,"end":6388.764,"text":"好沒問題其實我們有有那個扮青年席位讓年輕人只花很少錢進去看這個部分我們有一直在做但是您剛剛講整體的我們是演出不是看喔小朋友的意願五分鐘他可能就是活躍這個我們來"},{"start":6390.686,"end":6405.491,"text":"研究一下看怎麼做對 給地方的一些回饋好 趙偉不好意思最後30秒動漫季升帳票無法線上購買我簡單講最近我們接到民眾陳情博鱷動漫季在透過全網行銷這個主辦方"},{"start":6407.372,"end":6430.643,"text":"在售票的時候他說他有提供身心障礙票但是你要現場購買然後現場提供證據沒有提供線上身心障礙者能夠購票的一個系統我們查過這個主辦方之前都有提供線上購買身心障礙票的一個按鈕可是就在這一次博鱷動漫季竟然沒有"},{"start":6431.363,"end":6454.293,"text":"沒有這個按鈕這是一個民眾很小的事情但民事不可緩小事就是我們大事為什麼以往可以有這樣子的一個身心障礙票購買現在沒有博爾多曼記我希望後續部長能夠關切這一類事項讓他們有所改進也請部長事後回應我一下謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員質詢部長請回座"},{"start":6461.021,"end":6471.52,"text":"接下来请张亚琳委员咨询谢谢赵伟我们有请部长请李部长"},{"start":6476.062,"end":6495.897,"text":"詹委員你好部長好我想要針對幾個演唱會的問題跟你討論就是說這幾天呢其實有很多的韓星來台灣開演唱會那我們發現台灣這兩個字民眾非常的就是非常的在乎他們過去可能在台灣都會去像Super Junior這個團體過去來台灣都會喊台灣這樣子可是呢"},{"start":6496.658,"end":6518.068,"text":"他們發現說這個台灣這兩個字呢消失了變成是用地名來取代然後後來在粉絲的抗議之下呢才更改了文字但是還是沒有出現過台灣這樣子那也曾經說呢在現場的時候這些明星明明是喊台灣可是我們的翻譯卻自己把它翻成台北"},{"start":6520.543,"end":6549.484,"text":"那再來還有就是說見面會明確的禁止要求使用台灣這兩個字所以我想這對粉絲來說其實都造成很大的困惑就是在國外也就算了中國的打壓我們在很多的場景下沒有辦法說台灣但是為什麼連在我們自己的土地上面我們都還是不能喊台灣還是要配合中國的這種敘事呢來去做相關的一些統戰所以我想要了解就是說"},{"start":6550.578,"end":6579.762,"text":"部長現在大概有了解這樣子的狀況嗎這個演唱會經濟屬於民間的活動然後這些活動都在民間辦我們必須呼籲主辦單位請他們妥善的溝通那自我審查這個部分我想他們自己這些主辦單位自己本身大概也沒有要他們不准我想是個人的意識形態那站在我們立場我想我們盡量去呼籲也跟他們溝通說不要有這個限制"},{"start":6581.359,"end":6594.539,"text":"我想就是說因為其實我們在許多的演唱會進場之前它都會有一些禁止事項跟安檢政策特別有提到說不要帶政治性的標語但是我想"},{"start":6595.899,"end":6621.501,"text":"台灣對中國來說就是一個屬於政治性的標語特別是說現在有很多的這個可能演唱會的主辦單位過去他們在都是中資來台灣落底的那我想這個部分是不是可以明確的來去跟主辦單位來去要求說不要對於這樣子的一個言論做審查因為台灣畢竟是一個有言論自由的國家"},{"start":6623.122,"end":6638.474,"text":"這部分是不是可以請文化部主動的跟這些相關的主辦單位來去做一些溝通呢沒問題這個部分我們會來溝通好那我想這邊雖然我知道說這個民眾其實非常擔心說因為他們是中資來台灣落地的這些公司"},{"start":6639.214,"end":6662.665,"text":"如果我們今天去這邊買票我們各自會不會有洩漏的問題據我所知是不會不會有各自洩漏的問題因為各自是在售票系統上面這個部分是不是可以請部長也再確認一下我這樣子的說法是正確的嗎因為我想也可以讓民眾不要擔心這樣子通常在台灣要辦這些活動都必須是台灣本地的公司在主辦"},{"start":6663.88,"end":6675.987,"text":"對 但是我是說因為他們現在擔心就是說你是台灣的主辦可是其實你是中資在台灣落地那這些資料你會不會台灣收集之後拿回去給中國這是大家擔心的地方在說拍平台上會注意這一點"},{"start":6676.952,"end":6697.932,"text":"對 所以基本上部長這邊是可以告訴大家是我們大家在售票系統上面填入的個資其實是並不會被洩漏的 對嗎是 沒有問題好的 好 那我想這個就是希望部長文化部要有個態度要跟這些國外的藝人還有主辦單位清楚地溝通要來台灣表演就必須尊重台灣的主體性"},{"start":6698.593,"end":6724.562,"text":"那再來下一個問題就是說在今年3月陸委會也公布了多位在台灣發展的台灣在中國發展的台灣藝人集體在微博轉發中國央視的台灣必歸的貼文那陸陸續續不管在10月1號等等都有發出相關的貼文那文化部後來表示說許多藝人回應貼文是經紀公司代為發布不知道內容但是這樣子的說法"},{"start":6725.262,"end":6745.14,"text":"合理嗎我想請教部長就是說如果一個藝人的社群帳號代言通通都是在中國公司的掌控之下他還算是自由的文化工作者嗎還是他已經可能成為了中國的宣傳工具那這個會不會影響到國家的文化主權的問題呢"},{"start":6747.396,"end":6759.176,"text":"關於藝人轉發這些統戰的這個文字我們在處理上非常慎重因為為什麼因為我們我們對藝人到那邊去之後他怎麼樣被那邊的"},{"start":6760.563,"end":6787.564,"text":"工作人員控制或者遇到什麼困難我們其實真的不了解所以還好這一次有個機會就是陸委會給我們一個專案計畫把這20幾個人交給我們我們官司聯絡這20幾個人都出現問題就是他地址也找不到等等但是我們總算把它全部找到試著一個一個談以後發現他們講的都是一樣的就是他們其實根本不知道誰發這個然後也許是經紀公司"},{"start":6788.445,"end":6808.034,"text":"甚至於甚至於是有人統一在發連那個控制小控制那個網路的小編他都不是是有人統一發所以在那次我們用一個比較委婉的方式對外宣布我們這個調查過程之後不曉得委員有沒有發現在那次之後的"},{"start":6808.954,"end":6824.732,"text":"他們的行為就沒有踩到一個我們規定不能夠講統戰的語言那一直到現在他們都沒有再發過類似的語言所以我覺得我們在處理方式比較溫和一點但是有呼籲一點 關懷一點我覺得還是有點笑"},{"start":6825.478,"end":6851.866,"text":"好 聽起來就是說我們現在的委婉溝通部長認為是有效那我希望可以持續的來監督因為之前我們在跟文化部請教的時候都會說因為這個可能沒有辦法符合《兩岸人民關係條例》的三十三條之一的第一項第一款的規定其中的合法行為因為沒有辦法去界定這件事情所以我想這個部分的話是不是也應該要來準備修法呢如果有人在委婉溝通之後還是再犯呢"},{"start":6854.941,"end":6880.672,"text":"這個主管機關是陸委會他們我覺得未來在你們可以一起來討論吧因為你們是文化事業的主管機關的確我們會卡在一個原來的限制裡面他到底哪些語言哪些東西算是踩到這個紅線那後來陸委會就講出一個不能講武統不能講台灣是中國的一部分他就已經直接講這兩條不能講那我們就按照這兩條去了解這些藝人為什麼這樣做"},{"start":6881.272,"end":6904.941,"text":"那未来我觉得一定要从办法上直接改否则我们会继续在因为我们是个民主国家也是个法治国家当我们要惩处他的时候要有一个法律依据没错是就是说我也肯定部长积极的跟大家来沟通但是我讲我们还是要思考的是当已经沟通之后还是再犯之后我们必须要有法人可以来去处理这样子的问题"},{"start":6905.521,"end":6931.489,"text":"那同時呢更諷刺的是這些人回到台灣他還是可以申請文化部的補助喔不管是長篇輔導金影視局的補助或者是文哲院的投資那甚至是代言我們相關的活動甚至擔任文化大使這代表其實我們現在的制度是沒有防線的沒有防線的我們是一個民主國家那過去大家你們也會告訴我們說這是言論自由的一部分但是我要強調我們尊重中國的言論自由"},{"start":6932.829,"end":6959.485,"text":"卻是在限縮了台灣就是在限縮了台灣的主體性所以我希望就是說部長是不是可以再考慮再補助這些藝文活動或是進行相關審查的時候可以將涉及敵對勢力政治宣傳或統戰內容來納入一個審查的指標呢如果這個藝人之前曾經有配合中國宣傳或爭議或是屢勸不聽我們再補助"},{"start":6962.307,"end":6981.241,"text":"活動資格和合作審查時會主動提出警示或限制不然我覺得這不合理你拿我的納稅人的補助我們說的補助都是納稅人的錢你拿了台灣人的錢可是卻配合中國打壓台灣我覺得這不合理部長是不是可以承諾考慮將這件事情設計在我們的審查指標裡"},{"start":6982.253,"end":7009.753,"text":"其实我们已经有在做一个比如说如果是交流型的人到国外去交流这些艺人本身就先说的那个限制比较严格其实我们已经公告了如果他涉及到这些言论我们的辅导金我们的补助要收回来这已经开始做那其他的项目我们在逐渐检讨中的确有这个问题就是辅导金到底要给谁然后他如果犯了这个错我们该不该给他这个的确是一个有一个讨论的空间"},{"start":7010.643,"end":7035.878,"text":"好 我希望部長可以開始啟動討論那我也希望說大概多久我們可以來做一個討論的結果呢這個應該三個月吧要不要三個月嗎三個月差不多因為我們在內部其實有針對這個問題有一直討論所以三個月後給委員一個答案好嗎好 那最後我快快的講一個問題就是因為演唱會非常非常的紅那其實之前講黃牛票這個問題但是我今天要講的是黃牛詐騙"},{"start":7037.419,"end":7051.484,"text":"就是說現在他們其實透過很多的假票不僅是烘台票價而且你可能烘台票價你買到的還是假票你還進不去之前我就有說到一個case就是一個年輕人 青少年他存了兩萬塊去買一個演唱會門票結果後來是假票 他進不去"},{"start":7052.504,"end":7081.226,"text":"所以我覺得我們還是要來處理這個詐騙的問題社會上其實一直有在討論是不是可以建立一個官方的二手票券交換平台之前我們也有跟文化部來討論是說其實文化部要來做這件事情有困難因為沒有辦法驗證是不是真票還是假票這部分我也相當同意但是我們是不是可以來跟這個部會來跟相關的這個售票系統來溝通來討論我們是不是可以提供相關的一些"},{"start":7082.327,"end":7108.648,"text":"可能不管是跨平台協調的角色呢或是提供平台建置跟維護的一些成本的補助我們是不是可以從這個方向來去來去加強這個二手票券的流通避免真的想去的人買到假票那或是臨時有票的臨時不能去的人呢也沒有辦法出清他的票我們是不是可以往這個方向來討論呢沒有問題我們會繼續來了解這個過程看我們能做什麼這樣"},{"start":7109.673,"end":7123.458,"text":"好喔那這個之後我會找相關的抽票型來討論那也邀請文化部一起來參加好沒問題好謝謝張雅琳委員部長請回好接下來請陳秀寶召委謝主席請黎原部長好有請部長"},{"start":7141.384,"end":7155.954,"text":"陳委員你好部長早安部長昨天我們影視界有個很重大的好消息就是有電信業者跟文策院還有韓國娛樂公司電視台共同宣布成立兩個基金雙基金那總共的規模超過了15億元那主要是要力推台灣影視內容產業化與國際化"},{"start":7163.979,"end":7167.724,"text":"部長這個合作是我們台灣影視業影視產業的這個重要的里程碑也是過去教文委員一直都要強調說我們文化部這邊我們需要跟國際合作所以這個部分本席是給予肯定而且是非常支持"},{"start":7181.621,"end":7210.854,"text":"我想請教目前這個雙基金的合作我們文策院這邊投資的比例跟金額是多少我們預計要合作多少作品或者說我們有沒有預計要上架多少作品要上架的國家跟區域有沒有限定我們有沒有先規劃出來非常感謝委員問這個問題其實我們不只雙基金我們還有好幾個類似的基金在這次發表然後這個努力大概花了好多年才達成我是不是請我們董事長給您仔細的報告"},{"start":7211.36,"end":7226.638,"text":"好 請董事長跟委員報告那個比例的部分在這兩支雙激進裡面大概都是我這邊大概佔30%左右它有的多一點有的少一點然後最多因為我這邊都不能超過49%所以在另外一支因為有兩支啦有一支雙激進我們好像是佔到49%那前面那一支應該是30%"},{"start":7228.513,"end":7242.215,"text":"那我們預計會合作多少作品跟上架多少作品我們現在在作品我們沒有限量作品沒有說因為我們在這個是一個投資的基金所以他們我們是基本上是共組一個公司下去投"},{"start":7242.682,"end":7267.223,"text":"所以我们投的作品可以无限多但它的最重要的关键性的好处是说我们让专业第一个让专业界第二个让企业界进入这个基金所以他们都所以他们变成说可以就专业的部分来做这个挑选所以我们不是以数量来看是以内容来选对它基本上内容来我们只有跟那我们上架的国家跟区域目前有没有规划朝哪几个区域去发展"},{"start":7267.583,"end":7286.058,"text":"就發展的規劃的部分來說基本上是全球沒有哪裡是不要去的但是會因為合作的夥伴會有不同的像度譬如在類型電影的部分我們可能會往東南亞然後在動畫的部分我們可能會往日本在愛情片的部分可能會往韓國所以不同類型的產品我們推的地區會不一樣沒錯然後是這樣"},{"start":7288.76,"end":7300.493,"text":"那我想有這兩個基金的推理我們台灣影視的作品一定更能在國際上得到更多的肯定我們還會持續發佈的我們今天還有雖然我們今天在這裡但我們今天還有新的所以還有新的好消息這樣子好 謝謝那我想請教部長"},{"start":7303.897,"end":7317.784,"text":"另外我們文化部今年有啟動大航海計畫第二個梯次是要新增國際旗艦組要鼓勵跨域或可以發展IP的這些企業投入希望透過吸引國際資金還有國際人才來進而促進更多的商業競爭與藝術價值的有這樣子的價值的台灣的定義"},{"start":7327.248,"end":7336.029,"text":"那這些都是非常重要的國際合作的手段國際旗艦組我們這個補助會延續多久我們EGA要補助多少作品"},{"start":7337.13,"end":7362.54,"text":"目前我們以我們所編的預算我們想3年大概補助10部左右我們是把它擺在一般的補助裡面多一個旗艦組然後我們算一算我們的能量大概3年有10部左右大概最高到1億然後最低大概5、6千因為我們另外一個輔導金最高是5千萬我們等於再加一樣是比5千多到1億左右這樣的一個能量"},{"start":7363.462,"end":7382.037,"text":"就是因為這樣的預算規模那我們的期間是三年嘛那以預算規模來講我們預計是可以有十部的作品得到補助那本席這邊要強調其實我們台灣影視音走進世界是文化外交一個很重要很重要的一個途徑所以本席這邊對我們文化部"},{"start":7383.098,"end":7411.169,"text":"在115年的業務有很大的期許以我們過去的成績我也相信未來一定可以很亮眼那接下來我要持續的來請教部長我們在115年度編列預算完成之後部長表示說希望以文化團結台灣但是文化是融合在我們生活之中經濟文化 教育文化 運動文化及生活文化那本席這邊要問的是為了促進多方面的文化活動及推廣"},{"start":7411.809,"end":7437.795,"text":"文化部是不是應該要跟各部會來橫向合作我們更積極的建立不同面向的活動這邊舉兩個例子像第一個像遠洋合作就是我們李遠部長跟李洋部長我們兩個部文化部跟運動部我們透過體育文化文化體育這個合作讓人來在體育中去結合在文化中來結合體育這也是我們因為我們民眾也覺得很新鮮"},{"start":7438.615,"end":7465.816,"text":"那近期運動部他有發布了青春動視圈跟文化禮經的加碼方案這也是遠洋合作的首發那未來是不是還會有類似具體的方案跟其他部會的合作有 其實我三任以來我覺得我們部會跟部會之間有很多合作譬如說我們每推出一個計畫都是跟不同單位合作譬如我們推出一個歐洲台灣文化年就需要外交部幫忙"},{"start":7467.197,"end":7486.807,"text":"由我們來主導這個活動但是外交部在各個國家都有一些場館幫我們來做百大文化基地必須要跟農業部還有觀光署等等等等所以本身我們跨部也有規就是自己有規劃這樣跟跨部會的是我們很多活動幾乎都不是單獨在做"},{"start":7487.627,"end":7505.054,"text":"其實也有民眾建議說文化部是不是可以透過跟博物館串聯與運動部一起辦比如說路跑或是參觀集點的這些活動讓我們文化部跟運動結合也希望說像這樣的民眾的這樣的建議我們其實可以參考看看"},{"start":7506.314,"end":7530.963,"text":"那第二個部分呢就是剛才部長您說的文化部跟外交部合作的這個歐洲台灣文化年那外交部林佳龍部長說2026年還會延續那未來呢我們文化部這邊如何持續跟外交部合作我們要如何讓歐洲台灣文化年成為一個品牌能夠讓我們台灣的外交實力在國際間可以遍地開花部長您的看法"},{"start":7532.683,"end":7551.321,"text":"這點委員問得很好就是我們這幾年文化部在歐洲幾個據點我們派出去的同仁都非常努力在短短的幾年內我們幾乎爭取到每一次的活動裡面都有以台灣為主題或以主題國這樣一個名稱所以我們的能量非常大所以外交部長就來找我們說"},{"start":7552.762,"end":7569.592,"text":"可不可以一起來辦這個那這次蠻成功的當然包括故宮博物院剛好那個國寶要出國這樣我們就把它連在一起那這次活動非常成功就是因為累積了過去的能量然後我有個最大的發現就是歐洲對台灣的"},{"start":7571.25,"end":7592.937,"text":"興趣還有尊重像我們沿路會遇到一些打壓可是都非常順利解決就是因為法國也好捷克也好他非常懂得怎麼尊重我們台灣的文化所以這點蠻值得繼續做這個真的也非常感謝文化部長久以來的努力打下了這些跟歐洲許多國家他們合作的基礎"},{"start":7593.817,"end":7614.813,"text":"那在這邊我就要問到了吳浩波今年的預算呢這個國外旅費的部分在野檔刪了六成這也導致吳浩波許多業務停擺那其中吳浩波你們自己本身就取消了蠻多個國家出訪交流的計畫因為你們要把這些有效的這些預算呢"},{"start":7615.413,"end":7631.2,"text":"集中到你們這一次像到捷克到歐洲的這一趟我知道你們刪掉了取消了有像美國及加拿大地區駐外文化交流的這個勢導業務還有文化經貿政策的研究國際交流以及印太地區"},{"start":7632.22,"end":7646.837,"text":"文化的這個訪視交流計畫還有東南亞地區的駐外文化交流業務這個你們都取消了因為礙於經費的關係所以你們必須要把這些預算都留到我們部長這次到歐洲到法國去"},{"start":7647.358,"end":7662.764,"text":"那像剛才您提到的我們到法國的時候雖然中途有出現中國抗議的這樣子的事情但是法國代表不為所動還是跟我們續約了我們有簽到5年的這個續約這個我們歷史已經有30年之久的台法文化獎"},{"start":7664.125,"end":7685.641,"text":"所以說部長林也說了是法國選擇了我們所以顯見在國際文化的交流上出訪到各個國家跟其他國家的代表正面對面對面的交流是有很重大的意義是非常重要的那對於各國的這個國際關係也是有非常正面的這個促進這是很正面的效果"},{"start":7686.161,"end":7709.829,"text":"所以部長您是不是也覺得親自出訪對於推動文化交流是很必要的那是一個重視跟誠意是 我其實出去的機會去年是日本 今年是法國跟捷克我都會把自己排得滿滿的拜會所有可能發聲合作的單位那也創造了很多過去沒有過的比如說我去日本就"},{"start":7710.869,"end":7726.982,"text":"產生了一個爵士樂從來沒有邀請過台灣去參加爵士樂團那今年我去法國直接見到法國的電影中心的負責人然後他就跟我講說他們很想投資台灣的VR跟AR那剛剛"},{"start":7728.463,"end":7752.664,"text":"TCCF刚刚才办的时候那个法国电影中心带了80个人来这在过去都不太可能的就是一个法国的团带了80个人来台湾参加一个台湾办的这样TCCF就表示说他们在这边看到了很多山鸡那这些都是大家长期以来努力的所以我一直觉得我们被砍掉的预算其实砍的少少的可是就影响我们很多这样"},{"start":7753.069,"end":7767.763,"text":"其實非常的可惜就是說如果我們有更充裕的預算在我們的這個文化交流的方面國際的文化交流我們可以做更多那但是因為預算有限所以你們只能濃縮在每一趟出去的行程盡可能的"},{"start":7768.063,"end":7788.927,"text":"多去拜會 多去參訪 多去交流把能夠用的時間充分的利用所以本席在這邊也要呼籲其實明年度的預算希望在野黨不要再無視行政機關的要求因為這個真的會很嚴重的影響到台灣國際交流以上謝謝部長謝謝謝謝陳書寶 張偉部長請回接下來有請葉允芝委員"},{"start":7803.072,"end":7830.685,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 謝謝好 邱金部長葉委員你好部長好 先請教一下那個公廣的董事到底什麼時候要送來啊送到立法院剛才前面有幾位委員問同樣一個問題就是其實我們很早就啟動了啟動之後我們在徵求的過程中的確是到了最近最近就只差一個左右"},{"start":7831.738,"end":7836.582,"text":"那只差一個左右只差一個所以要等那一個確定之後再送來是不是"},{"start":7840.342,"end":7869.742,"text":"是嗎最近是嗎這什麼時候 因為你拖很久啦他按照道理來講這個胡彥輝董事長應該是在今年5月19號就卸職啦結果因為沒有新的人所以已經一直延任那如果一直沒有人的話胡彥輝董事長很想要叫我趕快換他每次都問我說什麼時候名單可以出來所以大家不要誤會我沒有說他很想做我沒有這樣講你幹嘛要這樣子我沒有這樣講我現在是問說因為按照法治"},{"start":7870.542,"end":7893.244,"text":"我們總是要法治總不能說你高興什麼時候提就什麼時候提沒有錯現在已經都過了五個多月了都一直沒有人來理論上來講你應該在他卸任半年前就要提等於你晚了將近一年文化部可以晚將近一年把董事名單送過來審查其實是很慢他總共任期三年你慢提了一年三分之一"},{"start":7895.198,"end":7922.224,"text":"這個我覺得實在是太久了啦所以你應該要給一個承諾就是什麼時間點然後你總不能說我吃吃等一個人吧那個人不答應我就是要等到他答應為止然後這樣又過三年我覺得大家也不能接受啦所以大概什麼時候總是要有個dayline嘛大概什麼時候其實我們就只差一個但是就很難找的原因是我們希望找來的人你們沒有公開跟大家推薦不行啊 這個是秘密啊"},{"start":7923.004,"end":7936.713,"text":"不是啦 我是說公開請大家推薦那最後你決定誰當秘密嘛但是我想這沒有那麼困難以前的文化部長都沒這個問題那您上任就有這個問題那可能就是你的問題了啦好不好 盡快啦 那什麼時候"},{"start":7937.776,"end":7966.975,"text":"總是要給自己一個因為按照依法你早就要送來的沒錯這個對不對公共電視法第16條委員你講的都完全對我自己很抱歉因為從來沒有文化部長會在這麼久提不出來那之前的文化部長都非常按照規定在前半年就提了提完之後有兩次是隔了1000天才產生最後的換句話說這1000天都是原來的董事長跟董事會在待所以後來我們才會修法說"},{"start":7968.316,"end":7984.325,"text":"如果產生不了的話原來這些董事繼續做的原因就是過去的經驗那個是一個彈性但並不是說反正既然這樣子我就不提了不會不會我覺得不是部長請你快一點因為感覺上你好像也沒辦法給一個承諾對我實在好那"},{"start":7985.586,"end":8008.016,"text":"先來跟您請教因為董事其實他對於有一些決策影響力很大甚至還會推翻文化部的決定我們來看去年大家很關心就是公廣集團怎麼忽然間要砸3000萬投資AI呢當時在省預算的時候也有討論公廣集團的說法是說他們要賺錢所以要投資3000萬做這件事情可是我們當時也有質疑過"},{"start":8009.557,"end":8029.959,"text":"因為他這個所謂的投資AI只是把一些設備更新或是借一些活動其實沒有到達人家講的所謂AI的那一種標準跟水準那我後來看到文化部你們好像有去踩煞車你們好像有去踩煞車你們有跟他們公廣集團說因為他們要必須要先修訂一個投資管理辦法你們跟他說這個先緩議"},{"start":8031.56,"end":8058.361,"text":"結果我看你們7月23號發文給公廣集團跟他說叫他緩議結果在公廣集團的會議紀錄裡面砲聲隆隆把你打臉的這個我問你感到不值像這個胡董事長袁輝就說文化部你憑什麼管我們文化部你在投資管理辦法只有被查的權限沒有核定跟緩議的權限所以文化部要求緩議方式處理已經越權了"},{"start":8060.209,"end":8081.017,"text":"不然你越權了啦 好不好然後再來黃監察人明輝說文化部不宜直接駁回或要求還議然後其他的董事一樣砲聲隆隆像這個郭董事立心說文化部做法已經超越主管機關的職權了啦所以他們做一個決議第一個文化部韓文所敘述的部分"},{"start":8082.372,"end":8105.721,"text":"部分與事實不符要給予澄清還說你們造謠第二個說主管機關對於公共媒體營運的獨立自主要尊重所以你們影響到他們的獨立再來他說要正式韓副文化部表達他們的立場那不曉得部長最後這個事情到底怎麼樣這個我簡單講就是因為公廣集團忽然間"},{"start":8107.168,"end":8128.346,"text":"要投資三千萬做AI外界爭議很大文化部想要踩煞車所以跟公廣講說先緩一緩然後結果公廣集團說文化部沒有這個權利那這是八月他們討論的那現在已經十一月初了所以我不知道最新的進度到底文化部對於公廣集團是有沒有影響力還是還是這個事情就是會繼續做下去啊部長"},{"start":8132.873,"end":8159.758,"text":"其實我知道他們為什麼那麼氣的原因是因為他大概我們剛才看到華氏的虧損年年增加到有一天沒有啦 不懂我沒有問你他為什麼氣啦不是我看得出來他很氣我只是問說這個事情到底進展如何所以這個事情是文化部要做還是不要做我們的確是沒有辦法叫他不要做只能建議他寫更清楚因為他的確他報備就OK啊所以今天共和集團有人來嗎"},{"start":8160.698,"end":8186.708,"text":"有啊 那非常憤怒 我也覺得要請他自己解釋一下跟你解釋 然後跟社會大眾解釋就是 哇塞 這個用詞譴制 簡直很不給部長面子耶請問總經理所以要請總經理嗎對 總經理所以你們這個事情是怎麼樣 現在因為8月21號嘛 現在已經11月初了所以這個事情是因為你們確定不理文化部了嘛"},{"start":8187.486,"end":8191.854,"text":"没有 我们其实不是 会议记录这样写的这不是我掰的我们都有秀出来"},{"start":8193.062,"end":8219.164,"text":"所以你們接下來這個事情準備要修改了嗎那個投資管理辦法管理辦法還是會修改修改之後還是要依照程序所以目前還沒有修改完有沒有再送文化部有沒有其實一直都會送文化部不是 8月21號以後還沒送就是你還是確定不理文化部的懷疑還是會送文化部只能依法核定文化部依法核定之後你們什麼時候開始投資3000萬目前還沒有"},{"start":8221.726,"end":8244.999,"text":"還沒有這個動作還沒有這個動作那大概什麼時候要有這個動作我們目前也是希望新的董事會成立以後再做進行新的董事會成立之後再來投資是不是對 再經由審議程序來好 謝謝部長 部長部長 文化部說確定不理你要再送 到時候你再看怎麼回好 那再來我們再來看一下"},{"start":8246.195,"end":8269.434,"text":"再問一下也是台灣Plus的事情因為上一次很多棒球迷心碎了因為本來台灣Plus在國慶的時候推出一個原創紀錄片它是在敘述台灣怎麼樣奪下世界棒球12強首冠傳奇故事其實應該是還蠻不錯 蠻好看的感動人心可是上架沒多久就下架我們私下了解這個紀錄片是花了一百多萬拍的"},{"start":8270.287,"end":8279.366,"text":"然後應該是昨天去看他現在依然沒有上架等於是這100多萬就丟在水裡了請問部長你知道這個事嗎"},{"start":8281.431,"end":8308.372,"text":"我不太清楚你不清楚 這新聞鬧很大在網路上也討論很熱烈還是請Tamara執行長說明一下請他自己解釋等一下再請那個部長這個您也是要監督一下先聽他怎麼講報告委員 這個事情是這樣因為我們委託了個廠商他是向中華棒球協會取得畫面畫面當中有部分的版權需要再取得愛爾達的授權這個在授權過程當中我們發現有點瑕疵所以請他暫時下架"},{"start":8308.812,"end":8321.449,"text":"那另外再調整過後過一陣子我們會再說過一陣子要多久因為已經很久了我們現在審我們這個製作完以後我們會請外部專家再審片再檢查一遍以後才會大概近期那你們內部會有什麼機制嗎因為這個事情蠻扯的第一個你浪費納稅人錢"},{"start":8324.172,"end":8341.303,"text":"第二個你算是有國家資源投入的一個媒體居然有侵權行為這個事先的管控都沒有做到這個我們在合約中有採明乙方要負責沒有啦 推給乙方那甲方都沒責任那甲方你們好好做喔以後出事都乙方做事對不對"},{"start":8341.823,"end":8362.69,"text":"不會 我們內部會再重新檢討對 所以你這個機制有問題嘛那你們有做出什麼檢討嗎這種事情棒球迷很生氣耶這要看的時候怎麼會因為他們PLUS的問題因為侵權因為侵權這種理由然後下架 到現在還沒上片這個一定要有一個檢討啦要給棒球迷一個交代啦"},{"start":8363.921,"end":8379.498,"text":"對 不能說那廠商問題跟我無關我覺得這種態度國人不能接受我們會檢討然後修好以後再重新上架那大概什麼時候給大家一個 不能無止盡量下去希望在12月之前重新上架12月之前是好 謝謝然後再來 部長 跟請教中央社也是文化部補助的嘛"},{"start":8380.422,"end":8405.178,"text":"中央社最近也有一個話題就是時代雜誌有一個華府的智庫亞洲計畫中心主任叫高德斯坦他在時代雜誌上面有一篇文章講到賴清德總統是魯莽的領導人大概是這樣這個背景你應該曉得然後結果中央社的報導因為他報導說高德斯坦"},{"start":8406.779,"end":8418.696,"text":"這篇文章他沒有講說是高德斯坦的文章他直接說時代雜誌報導所以中央社很生氣就說要懲處我們來看一下中央社的一個聲明"},{"start":8419.741,"end":8437.562,"text":"我們來看中央社的聲明它說本社10月24號報導美國時代雜誌刊登文章指賴總統是魯莽領導人本社並未亦寫時代雜誌文章它簡單講這個意思是這樣它說中央社說不能怪我因為我們不是直接去寫說"},{"start":8440.33,"end":8451.898,"text":"這個是時代雜誌的文章我們是轉述外交部的新聞稿而外交部的新聞稿講說是時代雜誌的文章所以 不是我們直接講的是我們轉述外交部的聲明稿"},{"start":8452.796,"end":8475.116,"text":"但是中央社覺得這個報導處理不當要對記者編輯督導主管進行懲處請問一下現在懲處什麼是怎樣懲處很感謝委員問這個問題因為我想說外界時常是講的沒有完全完整據我知道處理的蠻完整是不是請胡社長跟您報告就是現在是給他們寄過還是怎麼樣怎麼懲處"},{"start":8477.844,"end":8503.851,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心外界報導很多其實事實上我們到現在為止並沒有還沒有進行到懲處我們必須講這件事情各界的意見正反兩面差異非常大而且非常非常的龐大超過我們可以我可以感覺到這個事情所反映是台灣社會的政治立場的多元性但我很希望這個事情能夠回歸到新聞本業專業的"},{"start":8505.791,"end":8532.397,"text":"的呈現我們用新聞專業來看因為中央社一向發新聞都很謹慎我們很少發出因為錯誤而發出校正公電那就代表說我們要對海內外100多家的媒體進行這篇文章的修正過去都會相當的懲處回歸到新聞本質但因為這個案子很特殊是來自於市長可不可以長話短說好不好"},{"start":8533.337,"end":8559.017,"text":"因為我們時間有限詢問機構有錯在先但我們作為新聞媒體呢還是要負責把關我們是略有把關不力跟查證不足我知道 我們很慎重所以我們到昨天自律委員會請了四位外聘委員來解說這個新聞原理我希望能回到新聞原理那委員我們內部都有共識就是教育這個事情是一個在職教育因為這case很特殊不好意思 這兩"},{"start":8560.199,"end":8576.881,"text":"我覺得大家 我問得很明確啦因為你說將 將懲處嘛那現在是還沒懲處嘛還在研究要怎麼懲處中嘛不是 昨天下午是新聞自律委員會開過會議我們就直接講 因為這個你要講可能你可以講一小時我怕主席隨時會站起來"},{"start":8578.201,"end":8603.008,"text":"就是你現在還沒懲處嘛還沒有嘛但是你們會懲處嘛只是過程你要研究嘛因為爭議很大大概是這樣長話短說是這樣沒錯嘛還沒懲處啦好 謝謝我有再一分鐘因為他們講比較久就是我覺得這個懲處真的很奇怪啊我真的覺得非常奇怪啊第一個外交你們說你們是引述外交部的聲明外交部自己都沒懲處了"},{"start":8604.864,"end":8628.466,"text":"外交部都沒懲處如果外交部應該更氣啊因為你們怎麼你們發稿的人怎麼害中央社引述錯誤害人家懲處外交部要先懲處外交部都沒懲處中央社說要先懲處我覺得這個很奇怪非常非常非常奇怪這個我不知道為什麼這樣子啊那麼害怕只是因為報導了賴總統是魯莽的領導人中央社就嚇成這樣然後第二"},{"start":8629.608,"end":8645.083,"text":"你說那個高德斯坦我們回到剛剛高德斯坦的那篇文章他是投書嗎這也不是投書好不好他是一個時代雜誌的邀稿邀稿跟投書一樣嗎社長您也是媒體人一樣嗎"},{"start":8647.213,"end":8670.3,"text":"這完全不一樣的狀況這個是時代雜誌要寫一篇報導然後邀了一個學者跟他的觀點一樣的文章投書感覺好像民意論壇 不是嘛那個時候我看到很多民進黨的人在洗地就是說這個只是投書不能代表時代雜誌的立場如果我今天投書自由時報去罵賴清德他會採用嗎"},{"start":8672.436,"end":8694.032,"text":"不可能是嘛我覺得這個事情中央社自己不用那麼怕啦好像得罪賴總統就這麼害怕就懲處然後我覺得真的不用然後中央社我認為你們報導如果你要講到這個事情另外給你一個建議啦該寫的東西還是要寫啦你看喔前兩天那個應該是禮拜天的時候美國的戰爭部長戰爭部長弄一個貼文"},{"start":8699.755,"end":8724.889,"text":"他說他講了一個他跟川普通過電話然後說美中關係這個有史以來最好然後又講他跟董軍的電話如何如何如何其實媒體人一看就知道這個新聞點你又超過2分鐘30秒30秒那個點這個點就是在美中關係有史以來最好結果我們看中央社的報導講了一大堆就是沒有提到美中關係從此如此好"},{"start":8725.689,"end":8753.53,"text":"就故意審閱這句好像報導人家講說美中關係好這件事情又怕會得罪會不會影響到抗中保台路線啊是不是又會得罪今上中央社我覺得真的不用如果說真的是一個國家通訊社就要中立啦要中立什麼樣的立場都要報導希望中央社可以做到啦謝謝委員指導好不好 部長有沒有部長兩句話評論一下部長 部長中央社也是你補助的"},{"start":8756.178,"end":8774.836,"text":"我不知道該講什麼我覺得大家誤會好像蠻深的其實台灣從過去的威權走到民主國家不能再走回威權不過沒有我就是要講這個譬如說委員對我們的質詢我覺得都很有道理講得也非常好其實我們沒有"},{"start":8775.797,"end":8799.07,"text":"已經走到民主國家就不可能回頭嘛所以大家一直懷疑中央社也好公管集團也好其實至少我來這邊已經快一年多我從來沒有干預過這就是一個進步嘛一個進步國家就是你已經爭取到言論自由你已經爭取到民主制度你就不會再回頭這一點我覺得大家在媒體上講講講講講後來好像真的又回頭"},{"start":8799.85,"end":8812.957,"text":"這不可能的部長我很肯定你但我們講話都有憑有據我跟立場一樣好不容易抓到民主不要再回頭媒體也不要幫執政黨擦脂抹粉謝謝謝謝葉遠之委員質詢部長請回座接下來我們請顧逸勤委員質詢我們在劉書斌委員質詢之後休息五分鐘"},{"start":8830.782,"end":8850.476,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請部長清理部長郭委員你好是 部長我們先來看一下就是有一個臉書那部長認識這位高明誠嗎"},{"start":8853.195,"end":8866.512,"text":"我聽過 聽過但是我不知道是誰他是我們這一次的金鐘金鐘得主同時是聽海詠的最佳剪輯得獎者我想他是一個非常資深的剪輯師"},{"start":8867.974,"end":8883.748,"text":"她昨天在她自己的臉書上面特別PO文她說拍了這麼多的藝術電影 實驗電影影展辦得非常的火熱把每一位二十幾歲的青年其實都捧成像是明日之星一樣"},{"start":8884.429,"end":8909.104,"text":"但是他這篇文章我必須先說並不討喜但是他點出了許多我們擔憂將來在業界的一些問題他下半段寫說很好看這些電影但資金市場產業其實都不是這樣子的一個風格接著下來他說他們找得到工作嗎能堅持幾年人才又要流失了嗎"},{"start":8910.285,"end":8937.825,"text":"能不能夠去滿足根本撐不起的市場沒有辦法讓資金回本的極少數的群眾那每年呢一開始都有新聞在講說我們的電影可能要告急啦我們的票房要告急啦產業要崩潰啦但是每年的年底的時候其實又有很多我們台灣自己辦的一些影展要發給自己台灣電影好像感覺這個榮景無限啊"},{"start":8938.365,"end":8966.236,"text":"所以呢他感覺是在生死之間感覺他的形容喔那我想另外一位資深的製片王漢生也針對他的這篇PO文他自己臉書也分享了他說其實我們最核心的一個產業的問題其實就是評審跟觀眾的口味已經有很大的一個距離是沒有辦法交集的那這些獎項最後呢會不會成為同溫層當中的一些小小的狂喜"},{"start":8966.736,"end":8984.174,"text":"而沒有辦法讓一般的民眾能夠有共鳴我想他也點出我們的產業的一個困境也值得我們深思了我想針對文化政策的一個制定者您從這樣子的一篇文章我想請教一下部長您看到了什麼樣的核心問題嗎"},{"start":8986.175,"end":8999.883,"text":"謝謝委員這篇文章我現在想起來我看過然後其實我作為一個我曾經是電影工作者其實我曾經一開始就覺得電影藝術跟三業都是非常困難的就是你要非常藝術到"},{"start":9001.184,"end":9026.835,"text":"大家都覺得你拍得非常好跟你要大賣錢這兩件事情都是非常困難的然後電影是成為產業之後他一定要考慮市場考慮因為它在戲院放嘛可是它裡面講的大概是短片那通常我們拍短片本身因為它短片本身比較沒有商業壓力所以很多年輕人他都拍得比較實驗性對 但是不意味著這些年輕人走到產業之後"},{"start":9028.035,"end":9054.198,"text":"他就會還是拍一些實驗性比較高的電影那我覺得台灣電影其實到底要哪一種類型最適合台灣可以走出去的類型我想這篇文章提供給我們一些省思我們當然會希望優質的我們的台灣的一些電影或者是短片等等都能夠進入到真正的所謂的核心的市場"},{"start":9054.818,"end":9074.832,"text":"那兩方取得平衡之後這些人才才能夠真正留在我們的影視工作的環境當中我們也希望這個環境能夠越來越健康那這個也是我們文化部必須要跟我們一起大家努力的一個方向好那接下來呢其實又要提到了就是跟三菁相關了我想前一陣子大家其實都在議論紛紛的就是"},{"start":9077.674,"end":9092.371,"text":"涉及逃兵的一些爭議許多的藝人涉及逃兵的爭議那麼部分呢他們仍然入圍或者是已經拿得了這個所謂的三星的一些榮譽但是在榮譽跟責任上的一個落差我們文化部有沒有能夠"},{"start":9092.611,"end":9111.219,"text":"能夠做些什麼我舉個例子來講其實在國際上有一些制度是可以參考的像是南韓如果他們的藝人逃兵吸毒暴力等等行為他是可以暫停他的所有的作品的一個播出甚至要禁止他的參與還有追回公民的一些獎項"},{"start":9112.199,"end":9131.632,"text":"那在美國的這個影藝學院當中他們也講了如果有道德行為上的準則是違反的他是可以撤銷他的會員跟取消他的這個得獎的資格那在英國的電影學院呢他也說了如果得獎者他涉及刑事調查或不當的行為可以暫停"},{"start":9133.052,"end":9158.937,"text":"暫緩他的這個公佈的提名撤銷他的獎項跟停止他的會員的資格那我想當然以前一陣子這麼多接二連三的逃兵的這些事件出爐之後也發現他們也許在影藝文化工作的這樣子的一個範圍他們拿到了所謂的三星的獎項的肯定但是在面對司法的問題跟道德上的問題這個其實是兩相"},{"start":9162.597,"end":9179.646,"text":"兩回事啦那只是我在想說在藝人榮譽跟公民義務之間的連結產生了社會公信的一個危機那我想請教一下部長你認為我們是不是也應該要建立一套就是文化榮譽倫理的一個準則來提供給"},{"start":9180.646,"end":9195.177,"text":"其他真的要進入這一行或者是已經在這一行工作的人他們在面對所謂的國民的義務在兵役的部分能夠碰到所謂涉及重大違法或道德爭議的時候有一個處理的準則您認為呢"},{"start":9196.994,"end":9222.97,"text":"因為這件事情涉及到一個是道德一個是獎項所以我們在事情發生後有徵詢到有三組人就是過去都當不同的電影電視聽取獎他們的意見大部分的回答都是參考國際上的獎項有被撤掉資格的都是因為是他剛好資格不符或者抄襲或者等等就是他都是在技術上的"},{"start":9223.53,"end":9248.815,"text":"只有一個特例是國際安美獎涉及到性騷擾但是它本身是特別獎所以在所有獎項裡面可能只有一個獎比較要多考慮就是特別貢獻獎之類的或者我們在輔導金裡面可以訂這個那大部分的評審委員都覺得這是給他技術獎是特別獎那一年不同的評審所審出來的所以作為政府來講"},{"start":9250.665,"end":9268.557,"text":"我們好像沒有辦法去把某一屆某一個人的獎項把它撤掉這還是回到當初的辦法上但是剛剛委員講的的確是我們如何轉換一個方式因為當兵兵役是每一個國民的一個義務"},{"start":9269.958,"end":9293.553,"text":"所以當然他們以他們這個所謂的倫理的一個要求來講這個部分其實是有嚴重瑕疵當然社會的觀感也不好他們要怎麼樣自己去彌補這個社會觀感對他們的一個回復這個其實也要他們自己誠實面對但是我們文化部這邊我建議的方向是不是我們在這個文化獎項的一個倫理的準則其實也把這一次的這大規模"},{"start":9293.993,"end":9308.561,"text":"必須講真的是大規模因為真的好多好多藝人都涉及了相關的一些事件我們把它納入參考將來我們來研議這個方向是不是也有其他的一些可以講成的一個方向好不好沒問題我們會繼續研究這個題目"},{"start":9310.402,"end":9333.575,"text":"好那接下來我想請教一下就是我在前幾個會期其實大家都應該都知道我非常關心這個影視產業的一個職安的一個問題當然我也感謝這個文化部跟影視局當時給我一個正面的一個回應把這個強化影視科系的這個職安的資能也納入到我們的高教的重要計畫的方向之一"},{"start":9334.295,"end":9350.175,"text":"那也非常謝謝就是我們的影視局文化部這邊也聽到了我的一個訴求那當然我也特別注意到這個文化部每一年都編列了相關的預算在支持某一些所謂的這個單位在推動所謂的影視職安的一些教育跟宣導的一個活動"},{"start":9351.897,"end":9356.102,"text":"我找到了這個單位其實他們光是在今年度114年相關的一些計畫經費就達到了430萬元當然他是從111年到114年這連續幾年下來我發現當然這個方向"},{"start":9368.476,"end":9392.416,"text":"他們的這個所謂的計畫的方向是值得肯定的但是為了要讓我們的政策能夠有延續性我想請教一下部長幾個制度面上的一個問題就是文化部在核發這些補助的時候有沒有系統性的去追蹤他所提及的各項計畫的內容參與的人數還有他執行的一個成果這個成果是應該要被具體"},{"start":9392.816,"end":9415.147,"text":"的檢視不然他們可能要再申請明年度或者是後年度還有其他的單位要來申請的時候其實你們應該也會有一些選擇的一個準則然後再來第二點就是有沒有建立這個跨年度的一個成果評估的一個機制那如果有的話是不是可以把相關的資料也提供給我的辦公室來作為參考"},{"start":9416.247,"end":9432.362,"text":"再來就是說我們有沒有掌握他們後續在比方說他114年他已經申請了那接著下來可能他的活動就會慢慢的展開那有沒有繼續去掌握他們繼續執行的一個方向有沒有偏離初衷這是我比較關心的議題這個部分請教"},{"start":9435.74,"end":9448.768,"text":"關於那個隱私職安問題我們會列入在我們給輔導金裡面的一個很重要的一項我想這幾年我們做了蠻嚴格的檢驗然後也會追蹤是不是請局長講得更具體好"},{"start":9452.013,"end":9474.549,"text":"委員好我先針對校園的部分我先回應一下也謝謝委員在去年提醒我們要去跟教育部合作我把最新紀錄跟委員報告那今年的2月還有今年的6月教育部在全國大專院校校長會議還有教務主管會議的聯席會議上已經宣導要請各校要積極開設影視職安的"},{"start":9476.57,"end":9500.978,"text":"相關課程然後最重要的是把強化大專業校影視相關科技職安智能納入高等教育的深恩計畫第二期也就是說請他們就是各學校依照人才培訓的需求提出他們要責定的一個重點工作來推動這一點我們也很感謝教育部特別的跟我們合作非常感謝那另外呢就是剛剛委員提到的就是補助那個職安相關課程的部分"},{"start":9502.498,"end":9524.279,"text":"我們其實因為我們是跟台北市戲院工會一直有從111年就開始輔助他們這麼多年來因為這個工會他們對職安的訓練非常的專業所以我們每年都跟他們有相關的合作委員提到的就是其實我們有定期跟他們開工作會議"},{"start":9526.121,"end":9552.279,"text":"包括所有的課程我都請同仁都要去上課要去了解真正實際的狀況在工作會上我們也跟他們提出一些討論基本上我們都聚焦在職安這方面他們確實也很專業今年他們會設立安全人才資料庫有一些工作方也會製作隱私安全的工作手冊都是讓一些劇組實際了解在職安的重要性以上大概是這樣"},{"start":9552.679,"end":9575.35,"text":"我想這個可能需要一些時間來做這個彙整就是說你們的工作的一些報告那我想沒有特別針對哪一個單位但是我們也希望說這個相關的一些執行的成效宣導的場次或者是他的一些評估的報告事後再提供給我們辦公室作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝主席謝謝郭益勤委員質詢部長請回座"},{"start":9583.069,"end":9600.112,"text":"接下來請劉淑斌召委諮詢好有請李遠部長跟中央社胡萬寧社長請李部長跟胡社長"},{"start":9612.938,"end":9639.978,"text":"好 部長好喔那我今天要針對的是10月底它中央攝影術外交部回應的新聞稿它物質的美國重量級的智庫這個亞洲新亞洲部門的主任Golstein在時代雜誌他所投書為報導然後對要跟記者跟相關人員進行懲處可是這個事實上我查證的結果"},{"start":9641.139,"end":9660.203,"text":"是這個Golstadt它所呈現的是在線上專欄那你知道Times的這個雜誌呢它本身就是一個重要的一個國際期刊它有這個影響力它就針對像亞洲事務的部分就會有它的一個重要的專欄的作家來去來撰寫這是本身就有的那特別是這一個"},{"start":9661.404,"end":9668.589,"text":"這個國際重量級智庫Difference Priorities這個Golstein本身就是亞洲部這個主任專欄是一個長期的這樣的一個結果出現的那現在呢出現了這樣的懲處結果我們現在剛才我也聽到胡社長你有提到說說目前昨天就開了這個新聞自立委員會嘛對不對那目前懲處結果沒有出來但是我今天要討論的重點在於說懲處的標準是什麼"},{"start":9689.045,"end":9704.48,"text":"我們看看中央社的這個採訪通訊講審辦法當中他對於新聞的採訪的遺漏或發生錯誤或是缺乏實效性而影響本社社域的時候有規定有三種的方式就是"},{"start":9705.34,"end":9710.885,"text":"輕重就是深屆既過跟既大過這樣的狀況那我們現在不只是根據這樣子剛才因為這個新聞喔Golstein這樣的新聞說戴興德總統他本身是一個美國呢要注意到戴興德總統是一個魯莽的一個領導人"},{"start":9721.093,"end":9745.712,"text":"那我們現在看看其他的中央社其他的報導當中呢我們看到的是在陳培哲中央研究院院士跟75位學者他在今年的3月份就是你們引述他的一個聲明稿裡面提到了台灣言論自由被壓縮戒嚴時代呢思想審查又再度降臨了你們把戒嚴兩個字呢把它拿掉然後又改了回來"},{"start":9746.873,"end":9758.72,"text":"這是不是就是遺漏呢 甚至發生錯誤而且根本就是篡改人家的聲明那結果你們有懲處相關人士嗎那你們有發生更正聲明嗎請胡社長回覆今年3月發生的事情答案是沒有齁 我看到的資料是沒有齁好 胡社長你的時間要不要暫停一下你的答覆呢好 我回答了"},{"start":9777.596,"end":9805.361,"text":"對 你是更正 但是沒有成準這事實上你們是篡改人家的聲明這是非常重要的事情第二件事情五月的時候呢你們在YouTube直播封面放錯照片那把去年的照片呢用到今年來這是就職一週年的情況那底下的網友大家看到我們這個PPT裡面的右邊呢底下網友的留言是一片罵聲說你們的報導素質很差裡面連這個相片都會放錯有沒有嚴重的影響社育"},{"start":9806.101,"end":9831.691,"text":"那你們怎麼處理的有發道線其實我知道但是有說檢討作業那有懲處相關人員嗎請說委員我覺得您可能有點會說意了那個我們的懲處啊其實大部分這些都有懲處它的懲處我們懲處層次分很多如果呢是初犯或者不是明顯的是由各單位各中心的主管用祭典的方式那祭典的方式將來會留作年底的考期做個參考"},{"start":9832.731,"end":9855.94,"text":"第二個 如果說也不是太嚴重的它進行受害可能是口頭深解這個也是不會公告的所以您剛剛所說的沒有懲處是指其實我們這個內部的中心他們一定都會進行出錯的時候會做檢討所以這個也在我們的範疇所以我在想這個社會當中現在引起了一些confuse或者誤會是來自於這裡我們的懲處有些懲處是沒有明文公告的"},{"start":9856.3,"end":9880.285,"text":"好那沒問題這部分因為我等一下本席到最後的時候會要求你就是這部分的相關懲處尤其是在您一年上任以來所發生的這些情形因為在一年來就已經發生現在為止就已經有三件的事情了我們繼續也再看到這個事情呢就在於說是懲處標準在哪裡我們這邊今天我只是選的重點在懲處標準在哪裡因為這件事情涉及到的是賴清德總統我們從"},{"start":9881.445,"end":9905.271,"text":"我們從FTNN就是通燦傳媒的這個新聞當中他提到的是說是因為有人在關注特別是在跟應該是在跟高層裡面那高層裡面最多的可能就是您這部分我就想著說這部分請你們一定要做因為這邊已經很清楚了有這樣的情況下請問是你們在這過程當中你們25號或是24號當天的部分你們怎麼樣的處理還原一下"},{"start":9907.386,"end":9929.466,"text":"您是說這邊報導嗎我想委員這個所謂的不論是他是投書或者是專欄事實上都是一種opinion就是不等於報導他就是不一樣我們當然是前面外交部有一些問題但我們確實在技術上是查證"},{"start":9930.347,"end":9937.071,"text":"不利 那麼把關的也不利好 我覺得你這樣子講得非常專業所以我就跟你講我希望你們要繼續避免這樣子的一個因為媒體有報導出來是因為有關人士 重要人士去反映出來的所以你們要避免這種政治干預的問題出現我希望你中央社作為國家通訊社絕對是要有一個國家通訊社裡面的獨立專業的情況"},{"start":9953.402,"end":9976.625,"text":"所以這部分因為剛才涉及到好幾件事情的這個有出現錯失的部分需要做一個因為沒有報告出來所以這部分是不是可以請中央社這邊到時候等一下大概在兩個禮拜之內做這個部分做一個報告出來給我們的教文委員會可以不過我要解釋這個其實各政黨對國家"},{"start":9978.166,"end":9993.705,"text":"各政黨之間的批評或國家元首或各部會的批評我們中央社您可以看到出來我們都有登的但是我們中央社作為國家通訊社任何涉及台灣的國格尊嚴以及我們的國家元首重要的元首領袖我們的盡量保護"},{"start":9995.427,"end":10024.947,"text":"無論這位元首是任何的政黨我覺得這個中央社應該在這一方面更比其他媒體更加謹言慎行所以這部分但是你們要避免所謂的政治干預因為媒體已經有報導是這樣的情況就請你把你們專業呈現出來所以你剛才說了兩個禮拜可以嘛把這個報告給交給委員會好 謝謝您謝謝我們繼續往下看棒瓜董監事的提名上面然後想要這樣問一下這個部長因為我剛才也聽到幾位委員有提到的是這部分是目前好像只差一位對不對"},{"start":10025.968,"end":10043.546,"text":"目前差一位那你們事實上有沒有考慮過這一位讓你們考慮多久了應該有蠻多時間因為已經到相近延宕了11個月嘛對不對我在想說是不是你也卡取到當初小英總統的部分在考試委員的一個提名方式向各政黨徵選民選"},{"start":10044.807,"end":10062.29,"text":"各政黨的就是立法院的政黨提政選民選人選然後包括或是像這次的在中選會上面的像各政黨即使是一位就是至少多人才的部分提出來這樣的方式來去提名公共電視的人選讓送給行政院有沒有這種可能性"},{"start":10065.031,"end":10084.662,"text":"公共電視的董監事的審查委員按照那個立法院的政黨比例選出所以他本身這個就已經有立法院的政黨比例那可是公共電視的董監事按照法令是由行政院提出對的對但是現在如果要用各政黨來提名"},{"start":10085.202,"end":10111.679,"text":"喔沒有 我是說公開徵求人才因為你剛才說的是這邊徵選人很不願意嘛甚至因為這個過去有被延宕了三百多天對不對 這個我都聽到了是不是這一部分採取我剛才所說的考試委員的總統提名的模式包括現在的行政院長在徵求中選會的這個模式昨天的新聞都已經出來了是不是可以考慮這個模式來去進行這樣各政黨來提名就是建議推薦人選那你們再去再做提名一會上去"},{"start":10113.141,"end":10119.253,"text":"這個在過去好像沒有這樣做過因為過去都沒有 但是問題是事實上就解決問題這是一個方法 要考慮嗎"},{"start":10121.038,"end":10146.87,"text":"我回去想一想好 你繼續想一想好 這部分請昭緯再給我一分鐘時間這部分我們繼續往下看的是一個文化幣的問題在文化幣的問題上面它涉及到的是青年的文化參與這部分我們看到文化幣的發展的一個發放的初衷應該就是一個看到的是有個因為看到是像領取率 領取使用率一個短期的消費數據可是我們比較因為文化幣發放的話應該是一個長期叫養成"},{"start":10151.153,"end":10160.664,"text":"尤其是青年人因為這個發放到22歲嘛但是期待的是說對青年人他們到22歲的時候也是有後面的這樣子繼續對文化活動的支持嘛對不對"},{"start":10162.847,"end":10184.669,"text":"那現在重點是有沒有一個長期追蹤機制跟長期觀察機制因為看到的情況是現在這些文化幣的使用上面都是在書店跟出版的這個業界這部分而且被立法院的預算中心被已經就連續兩年在這部分做一個說要做修正因為太過於集中那有沒有什麼改善措施跟成效呢"},{"start":10187.128,"end":10207.23,"text":"太過於集中這件事情我們好像沒辦法去規定他要去做什麼比如說他會隨著比如說大家看電影隨著電影比較景氣的時候他曾經排到第二名第三名隨著電影不景氣他又跌到第六七名那我們如果限制別人說出版太多書店太多這個"},{"start":10208.591,"end":10224.461,"text":"這個對出版界來講他絕對是會抗議的因為他在使用文化幣的時候但是部長我知道可是這個比例差距太多了最高的也沒超過20%這電影的部分是跟這個差距而且最後看到是他變成在教科書的補助款所以本席建議"},{"start":10225.582,"end":10242.494,"text":"這部分一定是要把這個文化的參與跟教育性的參與絕對是要做一個比較那這部分我是不是可以請教甚至在為台灣的部分大阪市博你也說有不變的1億元要回到台灣來這就是展演的部分那這邊展演的部分是不是也可以跟文化幣做一下結合這點沒有問題因為我們的所有展演文化幣都可以使用"},{"start":10248.834,"end":10264.406,"text":"好 那就是這樣非常好那這部分回關於長期的這樣的評估機制是不是可以半年做一個報告出來就是說要過一個長期不然這個短期的效果雖然才實習兩年多而已是不是有計畫在這邊在半年之內提出一個評估報告包括它的成效報告這部分處理"},{"start":10265.346,"end":10290.151,"text":"這個沒問題 因為我們其實我們每兩個月都會報告一次而且那個data非常細都會上網嗎都會上網公告嗎公告沒有對外公告可是我們對內清清楚楚那公告的程度到什麼程度我想我們回來再討論一下但是要寫一個報告這個絕對不是問題因為蠻仔細的那最後一個問題文化會議的部分我就想用書面報告好不好文化會議的這個方式好 謝謝"},{"start":10292.938,"end":10294.184,"text":"謝謝抄偉謝謝書編抄偉質詢部長請回座我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10311.551,"end":10334.686,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個廟宇這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈"},{"start":10342.115,"end":10343.757,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":10349.923,"end":10369.987,"text":"這裏有個小小的小小的小小。這裏有個小小的小小。"},{"start":10373.683,"end":10374.223,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10419.627,"end":10420.108,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10426.032,"end":10447.527,"text":"請不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":10452.288,"end":10453.29,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10457.79,"end":10468.453,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":10490.264,"end":10490.685,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":10520.715,"end":10521.175,"text":"請按讚、訂閱、分享!"},{"start":10531.638,"end":10531.898,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":10553.974,"end":10554.495,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10607.613,"end":10611.275,"text":"我們開始開會 接下來請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":10622.358,"end":10623.62,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請李部長請李部長"},{"start":10630.563,"end":10656.795,"text":"林委員你好部長好首先對於這個文化部跟外交部合作所謂的歐洲文化年2025的這個部分歐洲台灣文化年的這個部分其實本身是予以肯定的因為我知道我們在這個今年度的預算當中文化部跟外交部其實同樣在宣傳預算上面都被在野黨可以說是狠狠地砍下了很多的這個"},{"start":10657.495,"end":10681.82,"text":"肉啦那麼剛剛我們的招委就是陳秀寶招委在質詢的時候也特別提到了就是希望能夠守護我們現在在這個歐洲宣傳的部分因為本席在上一屆擔任立法委員的時候就曾經說過我們的文化要輸出韓國就是一個非常好的一個榜樣走在前面但是本席其實現在要來特別詢問的就是說"},{"start":10682.64,"end":10710.964,"text":"我知道我們今年剛好九月的時候本席帶團到法國跟歐洲去訪問的時候剛好部長也出席了就是我們的這個台法文化獎的頒獎典禮那麼在這個頒獎典禮的背後事實上中國的阻力不斷那麼我剛剛是為了解了一下就是我們在文化交流今年編的預算其實也只有1500萬是嗎那去年是完全被刪除的部長是不是這樣"},{"start":10712.13,"end":10712.594,"text":"是好"},{"start":10714.119,"end":10740.789,"text":"其實我要講到的是中國的文化的干擾跟干預包括我們的翠玉白菜在捷克展出的時候其實也同樣受到了恐攻也就是中國的威脅所以部長其實本席非常的肯定就是這一次透過2025歐洲台灣文化年那麼文化部故宮再加上外交部所派駐的管處大家通力合作辦了70場26國讓"},{"start":10743.49,"end":10768.441,"text":"台灣的文化可以被看見但是我們知道在這些表演團隊當中有些當然已經享譽國際盛名比如像幽人神鼓比如說像足中慶打擊樂團等等但是我們也有許多是一些比較小的小團而這些小團需要的恐怕就是一種協助的宣傳的費用那麼在這個"},{"start":10770.042,"end":10788.007,"text":"僅有的資源底下尤其現在又面臨預算會期部長怎麼樣來協助我們的藝文團體有機會讓他們到國外去做展現因為台灣的文化跟中國的文化兩個是完全不一樣的而文化外交其實是我們非常重要的部分部長"},{"start":10789.517,"end":10809.305,"text":"好 謝謝委員問這個問題因為這次委員有跟我們去就發現我們在法國有一個活動就是台灣文化獎得獎人就是一個非常年輕的一個舞者他就帶幾個人自己到各國去表演而且在法國竟然成為一個很有名的舞團在現場"},{"start":10811.697,"end":10836.96,"text":"我個人感覺都非常感動就是因為我們通常送出去的團都是人也不能太多剛剛您提到那個大團我們的錢變得很少所以我們盡量的鼓勵比較小的團出去然後到很多很多點經過這些年累積之後我們幾乎在每一個歐洲的國家我們都有固定的一些那個一些藝術節也好 電影節也好我們幾乎都已經占到一個滿重要的"},{"start":10838.121,"end":10858.691,"text":"蠻重要的位置那需要的就是一些宣傳費那這次宣傳費被砍掉以後為什麼會跟外交部合作就是因為外交部的宣傳費也被砍掉我們就用兩個部門一起來做做的內容就是我們原來文化不就有的活動加上外交部在每個點的一些能量這樣做"},{"start":10859.992,"end":10876.238,"text":"那也許因為這樣做所以有點引起中國的注意就是好像整個文化本來是文化交流的本來文化是文化但是跟外交部放在一起的時候就會被中國有機可乘然後見縫插針來阻擋我們的文化展演"},{"start":10877.625,"end":10897.419,"text":"好 其實部長我要特別提到這一點是因為就像您剛剛提到的我們這個台灣INNA成舞製作團隊的B-DANCE我們的藝術總監劉柏成他其實就是一個小團他靠自己其實已經被法國所接受甚至於發揚光大但是這樣的預算其實本席也會跟我們其他民黨的委員"},{"start":10897.759,"end":10916.309,"text":"一起來守護因為這個真的是支持表演團隊那我知道時間到了最後我還是要來問這個問題喔其實本席是最早來提出就是閃兵還能拿三金嗎當時我是質詢國防部的部長因為我這個提議有許多他們的粉絲來攻擊我"},{"start":10916.809,"end":10942.66,"text":"但是我必須要強調的是剛剛前面有幾位委員已經都提到了個重點那就是納稅跟服兵役是中華民國國民所應盡的義務他是義務也就是說身為中華民國的國民你不能逃避這兩個重點的義務藝人靠的是他的reputation靠的是他的影響力來賺錢"},{"start":10945.001,"end":10964.932,"text":"那麼當然過去就像部長您也曾經回應過的已經頒的獎我沒有辦法去剝奪它也可以既往不咎但是面對接下來的三金尤其是政府給資源那麼我認為就不能背離我們國家所給予公民的義務"},{"start":10966.093,"end":10992.086,"text":"那麼是不是就像前面的委員所講的包括領選辦法包括給獎辦法能夠跟這三個執委會做討論因為我曾經在國防外交委員會有放過這個韓國的藝人他們在當兵之前影迷是如何歡迎他當兵要退役的時候影迷又是如何的歡迎他他們甚至於在營區外面對"},{"start":10993.41,"end":11022.71,"text":"影迷來行大禮這就表示說這種就是一種拉抬的效果正面的肯定就是要當兵真的是哥哥爸爸真偉大當兵就是一種榮譽但是如果說今天接下來我們對於三金在這個部分遴選辦法不做修正我認為這個是打臉國防部打臉其他認真遵守國家義務去服兵役的這些年輕朋友們"},{"start":11023.79,"end":11043.184,"text":"部長所以有沒有可能做一些修正剛剛委員講到那個當兵是一種榮譽那其實國安部顧立雄部長已經在其實已經進行了不少影片在強調那個當兵的那個光榮性我覺得一方面"},{"start":11044.105,"end":11058.511,"text":"如何撤掉這個不單兵的人不能夠得三金這個是另外一個問題如何讓大家覺得單兵是一種榮耀這也是另外一個問題但是這兩個問題可以放在一起討論那我想我們會後我再繼續來討論這個議題因為我們已經進行了滿久的一個跟三個單位討論很久了"},{"start":11065.874,"end":11084.504,"text":"是 我本席只要提醒喔因為今年度該頒的獎也都頒了但是2026年還沒有開始進行籌備 是吧所以說我認為他是有機會在給獎辦法 遴選辦法上面做一些修正 甚至於補充可以嗎是 沒問題 我們繼續討論這個話題好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林楚瑩委員質詢 部長請回座接下來請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":11104.255,"end":11107.503,"text":"謝謝主席有請文化部黎原部長請黎原部長"},{"start":11112.114,"end":11132.923,"text":"葛委員 你好部長好 很高興又看到你我想這個不清不楚是最可怕的剛剛我們有委員同事就在關心這個傘兵案件跟三金獎項的事有非常多人在討論不管是支持撤回或反對撤回當時部長的回應是文化部要進一步討論"},{"start":11133.843,"end":11158.854,"text":"那我覺得現在的狀況有點不清不楚我想還是再給您一個機會現在十多天過去了請問文化部對於這件事有沒有什麼具體的進展好 謝謝委員再問這個同一個問題三金要不要撤掉的問題隨著事情的發展各位一定知道到了昨天為止就有人去自首薛士林那我們的判斷就是隨著這個事情的發展"},{"start":11159.534,"end":11188.914,"text":"撤回不撤回撤回不撤回他沒有辦法yes no所以現在還沒辦法yes no這樣我們知道了那我請教一下部長三金獎過去辦理這麼多年剛剛委員同事也在講其實裡面的規範也許跟社會大眾的理解有點不一樣我想請教一下部長三金獎過去辦理這麼多年除了違反著作權法的案件以外有沒有因為得獎者違反其他法律而撤銷獎項的案例你們查過了嗎"},{"start":11190.275,"end":11214.538,"text":"目前為止我們查過只有一次是金鐘獎第57屆因為他得獎的那個人不符合全新創作獎對嘛 就著作權對不起 這個部長你聽我講嘛我說除了違反著作權法以外都沒有嘛 對不對我們徹底的查了一遍對啦 就是沒有嘛我們也了解啦所以其實啦這個相關的規定啊"},{"start":11214.938,"end":11239.267,"text":"都是依據不同獎項的規範來做的這些榮譽其實都是根據作品的表現來進行專業的評斷相關的規範其實我們也都幫文化部整理好了這個金曲獎這個規範是只針對參賽節目的部分規定如果有違反的話才來做撤銷是以節目的部分"},{"start":11240.941,"end":11258.688,"text":"金曲獎的話 對不起我講錯了金曲獎是得獎者違法追繳獎金和獎座但是過去以來並沒有執行金鐘獎則是以節目為主金馬獎的規範比較模糊就是說都是以相關的委員會來做決定"},{"start":11262.049,"end":11284.671,"text":"那事實上我想我們也根據文化部的答覆知道說整體來講是以作品的創作精神為主軸但是本席還是希望能夠部長站在更高的高度以尊重作品為出發點希望能夠呼應我們剛剛有委員同事來說就是說三金獎要來訂出更符合社會期望的獎勵要點不要因人設施"},{"start":11285.532,"end":11303.62,"text":"不然變成會不會到最後閃冰的要追回獎項反而違反兒少性剝削防治條例的強制性交罪的甚至殺人未遂的反而不用追回有多重標準的話我想社會大眾可能會很失望希望文化部趕快收集專家學者的意見做出適當的調整"},{"start":11304.983,"end":11331.655,"text":"可以嗎可以的好我想這個大家一起來關注另外想請部長來看兩段影片部長不知道能不能看得出哪幾支影片是由AI生成的我們先看一下都很短十幾秒請問你喜歡賴清德嗎喜歡啊那請問你知道你是AI生成的嗎知道啊真人誰喜歡賴清德啊來來來怎麼樣怎麼樣來來來怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":11333.76,"end":11342.027,"text":"這不是很好笑喔但是我們再來看請問你喜歡賴清德嗎喜歡啊那請問你知道你是AI生成的嗎知道啊真人誰喜歡賴清德啊"},{"start":11344.572,"end":11370.993,"text":"來來來 怎麼樣怎麼樣也不是很好笑部長知道哪一支是AI哪一支是真拍嗎看起來好像右邊這個比較不像真的人很好事實上兩支上面都有打浮水印全部是AI生成的事實上這些影片看了都讓人細思極恐這個是OpenAI 10月30號正式在台灣推出Sora App生成的影片"},{"start":11371.813,"end":11393.752,"text":"事實上因為台灣很有創意我們的創作者非常有創意被OpenAI選為亞洲前幾個國家開放作為這個APP來上市您看到的這個影片右邊其實是我的臉大家會覺得寶博士的臉被偽造了沒有 這其實有一個非常嚴格的機制我只要透過一分鐘掃描我的臉"},{"start":11394.352,"end":11418.804,"text":"同意我的臉可以被其他創作者使用以後我就可以讓我的臉出現在其他的作品裡面但是我也可以不允許使用或只允許我的朋友使用它其實是一個相對比較完整的一個控制的機制但是上市以來還是引起了藝文界的關注美國電影協會啊日本集音社啊都發表聲明但是部長啊"},{"start":11419.344,"end":11447.389,"text":"我發現到目前為止文化部完全沒有針對這個系列以及新的風潮新的服務新的應用跟這個完全看不出真假的影片來做一些意見的一些發表到底文化部是肯定台灣的創意應該要更加積極的利用這樣的AI工具來發展還是文化部擔憂未來藝文產業的發展會受到AI的強力挑戰這個部分部長"},{"start":11448.109,"end":11470.77,"text":"目前沒有立場沒有觀點嗎有 我們會隨著那個每一個比賽的項目以前規定不能夠完全不能碰AI到開始有部分可以用AI我們在我們的所有的那個輔導的輔導金獎勵辦法裡已經陸續開始修了就表示我們開始重視AI到做到什麼程度我們可以承認它是創作"},{"start":11471.11,"end":11492.042,"text":"部長有空可以體驗一下這樣的服務感受一下未來的科技另外部長也要看一下這個照片因為剛剛那個是Sora是一個美國的應用我們來看一下部長這張照片最近這種雪景風格好像蠻紅的滑一滑都有點滑到這個是網路最紅的AI照片生成的軟體"},{"start":11492.602,"end":11503.028,"text":"不用出國就可以拍一個雪景沙龍照事實上我們辦公室也幫部長您生成了一張雪景下的沙龍照"},{"start":11504.492,"end":11525.43,"text":"我們也老實講 這個APP來自中國大陸現在網路上有非常多的網友用它來生成圖片我們用這個APP 辦公室的同仁用這個APP來生成部長的照片 僅供質詢使用目的是為了讓部長理解事實上聲音跟肖像被侵權是有它的嚴重性的"},{"start":11526.03,"end":11537.982,"text":"如果您的這個肖像被匯入到這些服務裡面不只會生成美景美圖還有可能用您的臉跟您的口 您的聲音說出您不想講的話說我喜不喜歡賴清德總統這事實上"},{"start":11542.907,"end":11564.627,"text":"有可能會造成很多的傷害甚至有可能有一些人工作室他說這個演員這個演藝工作人員文藝工作者你讓我少一分鐘你就可以回家我付你一分鐘的薪水但是你的臉已經被完整的建模可以出現在所有的影劇當中事實上我們認為"},{"start":11565.948,"end":11590.426,"text":"先前有演藝人員因為到對岸發展被陸委會關切甚至被文化部約談但是未來這個東西進化了人不用到大陸不用到其他地方他還是可以演錄劇他還是可以做表演這還是一個可以討論的狀態但是如果有演藝人員反而被剝奪了只付了一分鐘的薪水但是卻演了幾千幾萬個小時的影劇"},{"start":11592.447,"end":11609.751,"text":"這很可能會造成很多權益上的問題所以我們一直希望能夠呼籲部長是不是能夠更加關注這方面的議題為什麼呢因為根據文化部今年7月出版的文化藝術應用生成式AI指引您剛剛也都提到了"},{"start":11610.331,"end":11631.995,"text":"這是你們寫的目前聲音特色肖像並非著作權的保護範圍所以您剛剛這些動作您作為部長你是完全沒有辦法做自我保護的部長一直有聽聞經濟部要對著作權法啟動修法文化部有沒有受邀參與有沒有主動積極的追溯"},{"start":11632.555,"end":11659.721,"text":"進度如何 什麼時候會有預告版本部長您可不可以關注一下您的臉跟您的聲音還有我們全體演藝文藝人員的這些權益可不可以稍微趕快說明一下我們參加過經濟部那個會議開過一次會什麼時候我要晚回查一下 對不起好 會後提供然後呢 現在進度怎麼樣就一次啊這麼重大的事就一次會議啊"},{"start":11664.847,"end":11693.368,"text":"因為他們是主動他們在辦邀請我們只有邀請過一次但您剛才這樣講我覺得這個蠻嚴重的的確是生意也好肖像也好他的著作權的確是我們在過去因為他過去的法律上好像沒辦法保護他因為我們在被拍攝發聲好像以前在過去的理解中他不能夠算是著作權可是有AI之後我想這點我們重新考慮好"},{"start":11694.569,"end":11705.964,"text":"謝謝部長這一點希望文化部更加積極主動這個事件會越演越烈現在已經出現所謂的AI女演員那我們現在看到我們的這個業務報告裡面50頁6次談AI 只談研討會"},{"start":11710.349,"end":11728.3,"text":"對於發展 對於保護其實隻字未提我們希望這個部長不要讓人有一種說您的喜怒這個勝於演藝工作者的權益對於政治性的議題好像比較關注我想這個是錯誤的認知但是希望您用行動來彰顯好不好"},{"start":11729.801,"end":11745.785,"text":"那接下來不好意思這時間雖然有限但有幾個非常重要勞動者的權益的議題我還是想要提出我們一直在關心藝文工作者的勞動權益那我們屢次向文化部提起要重視藝文工作者低薪高工時的問題同時我們也說"},{"start":11748.906,"end":11765.547,"text":"希望勞動部跟衛福部共同研議藝文工作者安全衛生防護的健康檢查協助方案結果根據本席提供的資料文化部在去年12月召集了勞動部衛福部開了一次會議又是一次會議了"},{"start":11766.488,"end":11785.255,"text":"然後沒有下文結果沒有下文的原因竟然不是其他人不配合竟然是文化部表示文化產業各種藝文形式差異甚大不同勞動型態工作場域廣泛多元要先了解藝文職業領域的勞動樣態才能跟勞動部討論"},{"start":11789.076,"end":11807.631,"text":"報告部長文化部成立到現在13年卻現在才發現不瞭解藝文領域的勞動樣態會不會太誇張啊這個聲音您能不能關心一下能不能進行更主動積極的防護我們知道現在有委託台進院做問卷調查"},{"start":11808.712,"end":11818.204,"text":"理論上9月底已經結束了能不能請部長確認什麼時候會再邀集會議不要又只開一次會部長能不能承諾6個月內有具體的進展"},{"start":11820.86,"end":11846.078,"text":"因為今年九月我們就完成一個調查因為的確剛才雖然您說這個文化藝文工作者這麼常來我們怎麼還沒有搞清楚事實上他一直在變化中就是所謂界定他是文化工作他的那個方式一直在界定中但是我們的確是問卷調查完之後我們會立刻進行到屬於跟其他國家來比較之後屬於健康檢查"},{"start":11847.479,"end":11870.472,"text":"4月我想我們儘快部長現在11月了9月應該已經做完了6個月內能不能有具體進展啊可以很長了耶好不好那最後再爭取幾十秒的時間部長有一個神秘的1億元我一定要搞清楚這是你們新年度的預算We Taiwan有一個移回台灣展出的費用列了1億元台幣而且業務宣導費都分開這個活動我們還是"},{"start":11872.853,"end":11892.853,"text":"支持因為19天內吸引20萬人次但是我們多次詢問你們到底1億元要怎麼花到底是運費還是勞務費用還是硬體還是軟體授權你們回覆我們這樣一張紙只有下部分這幾個字完全也一點"},{"start":11893.894,"end":11917.702,"text":"一點也不清楚啊然後就說要花掉一億元啊這個部長我現在想要給您一個機會啊可不可以向全民說清楚這一億元移展到底運什麼東西回來細項是什麼展演軟體硬體服務為什麼運回台灣要一億元呢委員謝謝你問這個問題其實他不是他不是把東西運回來他是要"},{"start":11918.84,"end":11942.999,"text":"模仿那边做的东西再重新开始全部都重新来过然后再增加一点展览我们分三块来讲第一块就是我们原来的那个静态的那个色彩光谱这一项比较受欢迎的增加一些项目这是一个一个是RV这个在那边很受欢迎之后把RV这个造型重新再扩大对不起"},{"start":11943.84,"end":11961.73,"text":"部長因為主席已經站起來了我打斷您原因是預算沒有辦法這樣編什麼樣的業務費用什麼樣的勞務費用什麼樣的設備費用什麼樣的授權費用這應該要列出來您如果清楚就請同仁回應我們清清楚楚的"},{"start":11962.13,"end":11983.051,"text":"预估我们现在从您刚刚这样的口条里面说起来我们还是不清楚我们知道可能会看到什么但是遗言如何花我们还是没有听到您刚刚自己仔细回想一下您刚刚在讲的哪一部分是多少钱还有一块我刚刚没讲完前两块是确定第三块是配合经济部"},{"start":11983.652,"end":12007.697,"text":"他也有一個展覽對不起不好意思主席好你先講完經濟部的展覽裡面文化部的協助這個部分還在談所以我沒有辦法給你一項一項的不好意思喔部長這一點我們很嚴重的跟誠信有關我們已經問過經濟部啦經濟部的那個Tech work的部分要移回台灣九千萬跟你們現在這個預算是完全沒有關係的喔"},{"start":12009.451,"end":12036.683,"text":"跟你們這個預算完全沒有關係的喔不是經濟部在所以你現在又說這一億跟經濟部的有關經濟部在國外那個是二三十億他移回來九千萬是重新做他是拆掉他們也沒有要移回來這是另外一個議題我不跟您討論所以他變九千萬但是您的一億跟經濟部沒有關係喔不要甩鍋經濟部喔有關係啦又變有關係了那現在到底是經濟部說謊"},{"start":12038.024,"end":12056.845,"text":"還是部長搞不清楚不是不是我們當初開會開到這個結論是這樣子他的那個九千萬是做他的硬體有關內容部分我們會支援他這當初是這樣一個結論不是你現在部長您是We TaiwanWe Taiwan這個展We Taiwan是"},{"start":12058.993,"end":12084.646,"text":"我們有兩個是固定我們自己可以決定的第三塊是跟他合作的這是我們上一次會議中的結論我沒有辦法給你細條是因為我要配合經濟部他們要把他移回來部長您再看一次我們字很大We Taiwan的計畫要移回來紀列一億元這跟經濟部一點關係都沒有We Taiwan就是您文化部的活動"},{"start":12086.431,"end":12104.055,"text":"你不要跟我們扯什麼經濟部然後又說現在沒有氣象現在已經是11月啦各位委員因為這是預算的部分所以今天是業務報告所以是不是如果你有什麼需要他們做詳細的說明的請他到你辦公室說對不起主席因為辦公室"},{"start":12105.016,"end":12116.586,"text":"整個文化部給我們就是這樣啦半夜然後說一億元部長在這裡也講不清楚沒有關係謝謝部長您可以到國語委員辦公室做一個詳細的說明沒有問題我們找個機會重新再講一遍這個部分可能還是需要一些細項謝謝主席耽誤這個會議的時間那也謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葛如君委員質詢部長請回座"},{"start":12135.785,"end":12146.93,"text":"接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢謝謝主席 我請文化部李遠部長請李遠部長"},{"start":12155.294,"end":12184.107,"text":"部長好 你好 部部都是文化部 人人都是體育人10月16號文化部也發布了一個新聞稿說文化部與新成立的運動部李洋部長雙部會首長首次合作會面啟動遠洋合作計畫乍看以為是海委會 不是海委會來 部長怎麼樣的一個想法你們會去啟動遠洋合作文化部跟運動部可以有哪些方面的合作呢"},{"start":12184.747,"end":12213.586,"text":"好 謝謝你給我這個機會因為李洋部長上任之後我們有很多機位剛好坐在隔壁他就問我問到文化幣他說文化幣蠻成功的可不可以了解一下因為他們的動資券他們也在發行動資券而且年齡很接近那我就跟他講說其實很多國家是把運動文化跟觀光綁在一起我們台灣是把它拆開所以如果我們彼此可以合作的話有非常多東西是"},{"start":12214.326,"end":12238.74,"text":"可以互相加成效果後來就約好兩邊碰面各自提自己的想像文化部就提了很多包括動資券跟文化幣怎麼樣一起來宣傳包括我們可以有運動漫畫因為這個部分是文化部比較熟練的我們本來就有固定在徵求漫畫就跟他建議說我們要不要一起來徵求運動漫畫他也覺得這個滿好的運動類型多少錢"},{"start":12242.702,"end":12262.303,"text":"其實我們在聊的時候大概都聊到這個計畫再來就是包括運動電影事實上大家都知道我們台灣現在正在拍過去也拍過很多運動電影運動電影展體育部提到的是一個他們過去就提過的一個博物館運動博物館這樣概念所以我們算是初步的聊過一輪"},{"start":12264.065,"end":12289.805,"text":"但是沒有非常具體可是半個月後我們就先推出第一次合作看看雙方順不順利因為畢竟要幕僚互相要熟悉對方的方法所以我們就很快的推一個就是各位看到的就是在11月以前同時用掉動資券跟文化幣我們各自再加碼加起來300元類似這樣子其實我覺得"},{"start":12290.546,"end":12316.112,"text":"它除了達成到雙方用掉這個文化幣跟兜支券之外我個人一直覺得我的文化部可以幫很多部門都增加文化性譬如說剛剛提到外交部我們就幫外交部去做文化外交譬如說我剛剛講的百大文化基地我們就可以幫交通部觀光署去建立一個文化的景點"},{"start":12317.192,"end":12343.394,"text":"我認為只有在這種合作中才有一種團隊的感覺就是我們是一個行政團隊大家團結合作的感覺我們非常的贊同也支持事實上剛剛部長就提到像韓國他就是以文化體育觀光部的方式綜合的一起來規劃跟推動所以剛剛提到幾個具體的合作專第一個你的文化幣跟動資券你們已經發布了就是"},{"start":12344.014,"end":12369.027,"text":"用加碼的方式送點數來推廣那麼因為現在已經11月了到年底之前剩下兩個月所以去年文化幣的領取率是86%其實有成長空間這一點是我要提醒你們可能兩個部會都要來加強宣傳剩下兩個月要領而且要使用那第二個呢是剛剛提到運動部成立有一個使命就是要成立國家運動博物館"},{"start":12370.928,"end":12387.653,"text":"所以這一個其實我們在修法要成立運動部的時候就已經也啟動在討論包括他長職應該要設在哪裡運動文化記憶這個史料過去沒有系統性的來盤整要趕快開始來做記錄那麼我看我們文化部已經針對明年就是亞運了嘛"},{"start":12390.734,"end":12412.747,"text":"文化部已經有媒合了我們台視播跟運動部有合作一個專案就是明年4月的時候我們是不是要來舉辦亞運特展這個目前應當是在規劃當中是嗎謝謝委員問到這個這就是我們等於第一次用這種展覽的方式來合作而且這個展覽已經籌備很久我是不是請台視播的那個館長來跟你解釋一下"},{"start":12418.457,"end":12439.35,"text":"委員早安 台思博從體育署時期就已經開始進行相關亞運展的合作運動部正式成立之後 我們已經在上個月開過一次工作會議確定了相關的一個期程預定在二月份完成相關的策展準備就在明年四月正式開展 轉期為半年"},{"start":12439.878,"end":12466.317,"text":"好這邊我也要謝謝台時博因為去年預算審查提案的時候我做一個提案希望我們可以跟城南區域周邊的學校社區來多還有周邊的場館來多解合作合作所以今年也舉辦了這個城南串串這個迴響非常好我們也提醒希望明年的亞運特展的時候跟我們周邊的學校因為運動是一個非常好的教育運營來多多的來交流跟推廣那第三點剛剛部長提到的運動漫畫跟運動電影"},{"start":12469.359,"end":12485.986,"text":"我也非常的支持那這部分文化部目前有沒有具體的計畫例如我們透過你要透過補助嗎還是相關什麼樣的政策工具去協助引導因為運動博物館主責應當是運動部文化部協助角色但是漫畫電影恐怕就是你們文化部要主責囉"},{"start":12487.65,"end":12499.457,"text":"因為我剛剛提到說比如說漫畫的這個獎勵補助我們每年都在進行長篇補助跟短的補助所以這個部分我們運作非常熟練有沒有預計什麼時候會出來呢針對你們要推動運動漫畫跟運動電影"},{"start":12506.341,"end":12521.28,"text":"1月底開始增建因為這個部分是我們文化部本身就在做的業務現在是想把那個運動部拉進來我們已經寫一個計畫好 那後續規劃再提供給我們1月份就開始可以啟動就是一個雙百萬的計畫大概徵求五個團隊來發展五種運動"},{"start":12524.924,"end":12550.226,"text":"那李安部長聽完也覺得這個蠻有趣就是說哪五種運動我們對外徵求然後台灣的漫畫其實已經有非常多的漫畫家這點也是大家很難想像就是繪畫漫畫的這個好 已經有具體計畫那我們非常期待第二個件事情要跟部長來追蹤關切的就是在我們忠孝東路二段一號過去是省紀部所有現在由我們台博館來規劃的"},{"start":12552.188,"end":12576.724,"text":"就是昭和樓日本時代的文資那因為這是我在擔任市議員的期間我是這個文資的提報人所以當年是我去台北市的文資審查會我來提報新市政也感謝民間的老師林宗奎老師當時提供我很多的史料那麼目前我們的進度因為我們有舉辦考察那目前進度是在規劃那未來的修復再利用"},{"start":12577.866,"end":12586.524,"text":"進度如何上次我聽到是說我們預計116年也就是兩年後要來竣工是不是可以如期的來完成呢"},{"start":12587.301,"end":12615.154,"text":"好這點我是不是請館長講一下好請館長是我們招了合的修復在116年是我們完工的目標目前沒有變動116年完工的話是不是預計117年有沒有辦法營運也應該可以好來部長請問現在這一個位置我們未來會規劃做什麼樣的博物館有沒有定位跟方向有有這個委員問得很好就是原來我們當初升級的時候是作為台博館的那個辦公室"},{"start":12615.987,"end":12630.423,"text":"但是後來因為我們有建築中心設在也是台博館的鐵道園區後來發現那個館實在太小後來覺得這個昭和樓它比較有古蹟它跟整個博物館系統比較像"},{"start":12630.964,"end":12654.557,"text":"今天我要提醒的是有關於昭和樓未來它利用活化的定位跟方向上次考察的時候我們就提醒我們認為應該要去結合周邊的關聯性你周邊對面有文學糧倉旁邊是華山園區如果它是作為文化藝術相關主題的這個場館的話應當是可以發揮加成的效果"},{"start":12656.058,"end":12678.377,"text":"所以呢在這個時間點你們做定位非常重要因為還有時間所以我希望你們可以仔細的去衡量如何去讓它發揮形成一個文化的聚落那最後呢我佔用一分鐘的時間想要來建議文化部因為APEC韓國剛落幕所以韓國的歌手GD是這個宣傳大使"},{"start":12678.797,"end":12691.26,"text":"他也是韓國大眾歡獎最年輕的得主BPS的主唱也在現場進行了演出所以我們看到像上個月BLACKPINK來高雄辦演唱會演唱會經濟 音樂帶動產業音樂帶動台灣的國際知名度它是有成效的那我看到影視局明天有一個新增的計畫我覺得非常棒是要來推動我們本土的音樂節來帶動國際觀光計畫這一個計畫預算5000萬"},{"start":12708.024,"end":12723.584,"text":"部長支持但其實我覺得不夠五千萬應該還要再多但是你們有沒有開始跟觀光署來進行討論了文化部跟觀光署要來合作其實我們這個計畫就是要跟觀光署一起合作希望能夠一個是刺激內需一個是能夠"},{"start":12725.183,"end":12748.343,"text":"很多人因為這個活動來台灣觀光所以這個整個計畫是要跟觀光署一起來做跟我們其他的文化活動有點不一樣音樂帶動觀光 音樂帶動產業音樂帶動全世界認識台灣台灣的文化創作絕對有這樣的條件跟實力那文化部責無旁貸我們期待明年開始這個計畫可以來一起帶動台灣讓世界更看見 認識台灣好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":12753.567,"end":12767.625,"text":"谢谢配议委员质询部长请回座接下来请刘建国委员质询刘建国刘建国委员不在接下来请林倩起委员质询"},{"start":12776.382,"end":12782.336,"text":"時間4分鐘謝謝我們主席召委我請一下我們李遠部長 謝謝請李遠部長"},{"start":12787.754,"end":12811.136,"text":"部長好 本席請先針對台籍慰安婦的歷史記憶跟婦女人權教育的問題這邊來跟你討教跟建議前些時間8月14號是國際慰安婦的紀念日我們知道戰爭不是只有槍砲跟成敗很重要的是在這件事情上有無數的女性在軍國主義下被迫淪為性奴"},{"start":12811.997,"end":12840.406,"text":"那麼承受一身難以抹去的傷痛但是台灣整個58位的慰安婦當中最後一位倖存者已經在2023年離世這段歷史他們沒有等到再世的時候讓我們有機會去跟他們有對話所以我們現在只能透過行動來銘記跟傳承58位的受害者當中有12位是原住民比例也非常高"},{"start":12841.466,"end":12856.376,"text":"不同於送往海外的閩南籍跟客家的受害者原住民本身原住民的女性在本島就已經遭受一些迫害白天要進日營的營區打掃晚上就被迫當性奴隸"},{"start":12857.456,"end":12875.55,"text":"這不僅是性暴力更是殖民體制下對原住民的雙重壓迫本席在這邊要呼籲文化部這其實也是一些婦女團體的呼籲我們應該成立婦女人權博物館讓這段歷史與女性人權的議題有一些專責的場域來承載"},{"start":12877.651,"end":12889.945,"text":"那麼民間有阿嬤家和平與女性人權館但規模有限那也是民間的沒有辦法涵蓋全國的教育研究與國際交流的需求所以本席在這邊有三個訴求"},{"start":12892.628,"end":12911.486,"text":"第一個 現在能不能規劃婦女人權博物館讓台籍的慰安婦女的歷史與亞洲其他地區的研究在台灣成為一個重要的基地第二個部分 能不能跟教育部來合作將現有的場館資源跟教材做一個設計跟結合推動青年參與與相關的國際交流"},{"start":12915.009,"end":12931.339,"text":"那麼也就是說讓現在的這個青年人對於這段歷史不是那麼清楚的話有這樣子一個平台那第三個部分你們召開的全國文化會議是不是應該將女性的議題納入討論的主題成為政策優先的一個方向"},{"start":12932.279,"end":12947.513,"text":"抗戰是勝利的 那是我們的榮光但是未安撫的正義他們在世的時候沒有等到可是這段歷史也是值得我們來記憶跟學習的所以我們要誠實的來面對這段歷史來修復這段"},{"start":12951.716,"end":12980.413,"text":"失去的一切所以我們要建立在誠實的一個外交教育文化政策上然後不能選擇性的一個失意那我們也不應該因為這一群人的凋零而消失所以本席在這邊呼籲跟要求文化部可不可以展卻比較明確的一個立場跟具體的一個行動來正視這個問題然後能夠來為這一部分的人來發聲雖然他們都已經離世了"},{"start":12981.634,"end":13003.55,"text":"來 部長好 謝謝委員質疑這個其實那個民間的阿嬤家和平與女性人權館是我們長期也會資助他的可是要慢慢轉成一個這個博物館整體而言那個博物館的設置部長 本席這邊其實沒有一定鎖定在那邊我意思是說民間都已經在做了那政府其實可以有更大的格局更前瞻來"},{"start":13005.211,"end":13028.553,"text":"做這件事情因為他們沒有得到這個政府的一個支持所以他們就開始有了這個民間的這樣一個博物館那其實我們應該有更大的格局還有更全面的一個教育來做這件事情這本席的一個訴求啦那對於全國的這個公司管事我想文化部應該長期應該是你們的責任來做處理的那本席的那三點訴求你怎麼樣的看法"},{"start":13029.449,"end":13051.67,"text":"我覺得這個看法非常好但是我們會回來研究看因為設立博物館本身它涉及到非常多的東西包括人才 包括地點本席這邊也提醒了本席長期對於人權博物館這邊也有一些建議你們其實是可以在議題這個部分去做一些看怎麼樣結合的一個處理是不是可以給本席一個比較具體的回應"},{"start":13053.492,"end":13077.993,"text":"那第二個部分很快就是本席在國事論壇我相信您當時也在談到了台灣plus的問題今天就一個對於那個績效指標我相信你應該聽到本席那時候發言非常的清楚那本席今天最主要講的是英語帶有台灣腔的這個部分就失去了播音的機會不好意思部長那個台灣plus應該讓台灣的各種聲音有"},{"start":13078.533,"end":13096.774,"text":"一個平台跟管道出現就像本席所講的喔 台灣Q不是從台灣來的嘛你不讓人聽到這個台灣Q的演繹說這樣播報不行那台灣的文化怎麼有可能在各種面向來出現跟發生呢這是本席最主要的一個很重視的一個重點"},{"start":13097.395,"end":13124.803,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請部長你們應該在本席所講的KPI跟外部的審議機制要來保障多元的一個監督那您的看法如何這個部分本席要比較具體的一個回應這個您剛剛講的問題我覺得蠻重要就是我們但是我們在陸續改這個問題我們有了解到我們陸續在改進中包括有幾個主播是台灣台灣籍的將來有一天就會有台灣英語這樣子"},{"start":13127.26,"end":13147.267,"text":"好 謝謝部長啦這個本席真的深有同感那過去在美國念書的時候那很多比如說有台灣口音的人其實外國人都非常的欣賞所以不要我們不是英語的正英班所以透過這個平台讓大家真正了解台灣的多元好不好好 謝謝謝謝林倩琪委員質詢部長請回座"},{"start":13151.67,"end":13159.29,"text":"接下来请赖会员委员咨询是谢谢主席有请那个部长经理院部长"},{"start":13163.687,"end":13182.254,"text":"賴委員你好是 部長非常感謝10月29號你親自到我們的北門成家古厝那你也來到了我們的南昆深 帶天湖帶來了資源也帶來了很多的一個珍貴文化資產的一個鼓勵"},{"start":13183.354,"end":13205.95,"text":"那今天要跟部長探討了就是說丹納斯颱風還有就是氣候異常那常常我們會有不可逆的這一些氣候因素外來因素那對於我們的這些歷史古蹟不能只有就是恢復到原狀我們希望就是說結構的一個升級在這一次丹納斯颱風其實重創了整個"},{"start":13209.372,"end":13231.423,"text":"大台南那這50件的歷史古蹟裡頭我們這50件裡頭包括了31處的市定古蹟跟19處的這個歷史建築那特別要請教部長就是說在特別預算用於災後復原的整體的執行力現在到哪裡那在未來的結構升級是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":13232.659,"end":13254.068,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題就是我們申請到這個費用以後最近才開始正式的因為我們要從地方上提這個計劃案上來我們才來核發所以最近我為什麼才開始能夠去台南或者嘉義去了解就是因為我們那個預算大概已經分配完但是我們的進行其實早就開始了像我對於這個"},{"start":13255.589,"end":13278.365,"text":"南部這次風災之後要恢復它原來那些文資身份的這個建築物其實我個人非常關心所以在去了台南跟嘉義之後的這個禮拜天我們在我們的台中文資局成立了一個全台灣第一個傳統匠師的工會因為我們遇到的問題就是傳統匠師的年齡"},{"start":13279.566,"end":13296.527,"text":"還有他的那個人才一直在流失我想要知道就是說整個整體來講丹納斯颱風這一次就是這重創了沿台就是台南市的這50個50個地方的歷史古蹟你到什麼時候要把它執行完畢OK 這點我想局長回答一下好嗎好"},{"start":13298.314,"end":13313.776,"text":"文化部所爭取到的2.94億我們就是依照重建條例以明年12月底完成為目標局長 明年的12月底你有把握就是說這個經費的執行我們會以這個為目標但是整個的"},{"start":13314.116,"end":13332.845,"text":"作為目標而已還是說你絕對有辦法把它就是這個目標在12月底把它完成因為分階段它有一些是緊急搶救因為一個文化資產所以不見得是12月底那你的那個中期呢中期你怎麼樣消化這個這個會後再提個書面報告過來那個部長我再請教你就針對的我們"},{"start":13339.588,"end":13365.923,"text":"台南沿水就是我們有一個國家級的那個隱世基地那在7月19號去年的7月19號你來了一次我相信這個王實施次長對這個地方相當相當的有感情這個是他在我們台南市這個就任的這個任內這有一個這麼棒的一個國家級的隱世基地那行政院長還有那個我們的那個"},{"start":13367.444,"end":13383.149,"text":"副院長他其實都來過了幾次這是賴清德總統當時在當台南市市長的時候他所立下的一個文化古蹟那就是說不是文化古蹟抱歉是一個就是花展就是"},{"start":13383.869,"end":13399.441,"text":"台灣的一個案內就是那個發展台灣的一個隱世的一個基地的一個重鎮那現在就是說在這一次的風災它也被重創了斯卡羅那一個就是案場整個都被吹倒了"},{"start":13399.821,"end":13423.782,"text":"那風災的重創怎麼樣恢復它這個也是我需要就是部長來關心的那況且還有一段就是說護岩的時程是多久這個也要請文化部就是說怎麼跟地方政府共同的推動還有它有一個很嚴重很嚴重的一個問題沒有一個永續配套私林它的住宿能量不足"},{"start":13424.022,"end":13439.449,"text":"因為他一個案主通常他需要上百人那這上百人要住在什麼地方他住在鹽水也不適合他住在新營這個地方他能容納的其實是有限很多很多就是說比較好的這種"},{"start":13441.329,"end":13467.298,"text":"他其實是不願意到這個地方來的那你的配套你要趕快出來那以上就是利用這樣今天一個質詢的時間跟部長做這樣的一個探討然後順便再跟局長再探討一下就是說我們新營新營的這一個新營糖廠的宿舍群的一個修繕這個是離譜到離譜我上一屆的時候就已經是啟動第一次的會刊"},{"start":13467.938,"end":13488.184,"text":"那從2018年這個考察座談一直到2025年的二頁的協調會毫無進展不管是台堂不管是經濟部不管是文化部所以在這裡要拜託部長就是說把這個進展推動一下謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝賴會員委員質詢部長請回座接下來請盧憲一委員質詢"},{"start":13502.666,"end":13527.617,"text":"主席有请部长请李远部长卢委员好部长好今天看到我就应该想到原住民的问题那我刚看了今天早上研究了这个文化部的业务报告里面没有看到我们原住民关于有形文化无形文化里面的调查就是说大概比例是多少"},{"start":13528.26,"end":13555.86,"text":"那我大概翻阅了网络上面的资料看到现在保存的资料大概是六千多件这是全国的原住民的部分大概是三百多件那我希望在呈现文化多元的时候这个业务报告里面可以做一个明确的一个指示标示是说你们对我们现在原住民的无形文化跟有形文化的这个资产的努力大概有多少这样你大概了解吗部长"},{"start":13560.826,"end":13589.538,"text":"我是不是请局长回答一下OK喂好现在目前我们全国文化资产里面原住民族的这些香港文化资产的确数量上来讲我们觉得还有提升很大提升的空间没有错而且是在我们所谓的传统领域里面可能涵盖目前很多的行政区如果他有发现古迹或者是说在挖掘一些比如说捷运的一个设施发现了这些传统的一些古迹的话应该都是属于我们原住民的文化里面"},{"start":13589.978,"end":13617.663,"text":"所以應該這個比例我覺得應該是要大幅提升才對然後在目前有遇到一些困境就是說我們要文化資產登錄的時候它比一般的文化的程序還要繁瑣緩慢大概有呈現了幾個問題就是說你在文化資產要登錄的時候它必須要現場反查要諮商族人還要開審議會也就是說這個行政程序非常繁瑣而且"},{"start":13618.143,"end":13633.093,"text":"是需要很长的时间所以可能在五行文化登录这个部分就变得相当困难所以我们在看这个比例的时候其实五行文化的那个登录的这个成功比率是比较低所以可能这个部分是不是在行政制度上面这个"},{"start":13633.894,"end":13660.787,"text":"这个繁琐上面是不是可以做一些调整所以我们希望是让族人可以更主动更快地完成登录而不是被程序绑架可以吗可以第一个就是我们会在程序的完备程序上面我们会尽量缩短但是族人的共识我们在这次最近几次的登录里面族人的共识的凝聚需要时间而且这个如果没有凝聚共识真正登录了反而会造成问题的开始"},{"start":13661.467,"end":13683.95,"text":"這次在走訪一些原住民部落的時候我剛好經過一個地方他們在呈現原住民的歌舞然後就看到是我們國立傳統藝術中心在我們高雄市桃園區的新中國小在做類似這樣展演或者是預演因為他們要到台北來演出那他們就說我後來看到主任跟我"},{"start":13685.071,"end":13707.553,"text":"大概簡述了一下說他們在東京有拿到金賞獎當然非常肯定他們的努力不過我們今天要凸顯一個問題就是說我們目前原住民組研究歌舞的機構沒有那既然已經有原發中心的話能不能就它就現有的一個場館裡面或者是找一個地方可以真正的去研究原住民的歌舞因為"},{"start":13708.194,"end":13730.583,"text":"我們這次看到我們國慶大典上面受矚目的這個表演就是我們所謂的拉瓦爾族群裡面呈現的這個表演其實這些都是大學生或者是在地的青年可是他們都是自學或者是找一些部落的一些研究這些歌舞的人可是如果說這些人不在了或是因為工作的因素沒有在這個領域裡面就沒有人帶領"},{"start":13733.304,"end":13760.703,"text":"所以如果国家有足够的经费来挹注以后有这个专门研究原住民歌舞的场馆的时候或者是机构的时候这个文化就不会流失我说就这方面的建议那我希望我们常常我们有时候会看到一些什么文化保存人或什么的我希望他不是冷冰冰的只是一个名册而已要上家利用他们文化保存者的这个一个角色希望多"},{"start":13761.403,"end":13786.497,"text":"帮他们办一些座谈或者是实际的课程到学校里面或者是社区里面的一个所谓去表现或是在他身体里面或是身体记忆里面的这些文化的一些因素让他来影响我们的族人可以吗是好就我想我们现在的做法但跟委员的想法应该是很接近的OK好那就继续努力谢谢好谢谢"},{"start":13788.249,"end":13796.033,"text":"謝謝盧憲一委員質詢 部長請回座接下來請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在接下來請麥玉珍委員質詢主席好 有請文化部部長請林院部長麥委員好"},{"start":13817.601,"end":13835.097,"text":"部長好我要請教一下我國新住民族群因為大家都要爭取族群的福利已經不是台灣四大族群之一了在文化部推廣文化平權的業務的目標包含了"},{"start":13840.422,"end":13867.262,"text":"肯認多元族群之一的文化差異使台灣各族群能相互相認識並了解彼此之差異進而接納與欣賞不同文化所有的具有的差異但是避免各種形形歧視與偏見請問我們文化部做了哪一些措施"},{"start":13868.747,"end":13895.717,"text":"其實行政院本身就有一個新住民事務協調會報然後我們平常我們的在文化部的一些補助上面會協力這個民間團體有關新住民的團體的一些補助更具體的說像我們台灣公益研究發展中心我們就補助了這個屏東縣球麻園城鄉文教基金會這個活動國立台灣文學館辦理"},{"start":13897.457,"end":13915.003,"text":"2025年故事聯合國專門邀請新住民的朋友來一起交流然後事實上我們的繪本我們的繪本在新竹昌和美學館專門針對新住民的朋友來創造這個新住民本身的繪本"},{"start":13915.603,"end":13944.249,"text":"另外我們本身有部長不好意思因為時間有限這個資料可以再提供給我我們在每個部門都有在事後再提供給我你講這些有一些我都有去參加也當評鑑委員所以我想要請教的這個部分因為這些媒體報導所使用的字眼網路上就是氾濫的留言這些內容是否符合文化平權"},{"start":13945.049,"end":13973.907,"text":"我想要问的是这个符合吗符合你推动的文化平权吗委员指的是哪一些语言你们有一个文化平权的推动方案就是你说他们的留言对就是网络那么泛滥的留言有符合你推动的文化平权吗当然不符合因为网络的语言基本上我们是无法控制的但是我觉得对于新住民的这个"},{"start":13974.727,"end":13995.974,"text":"一些不當的語言 我想我們在文化部的立場我希望能夠呼籲然後讓大家重新正視新住民的文化與台灣文化因為我們希望的是文化提前要有推薦的效率但是我們目前所說的就是這些的業務推廣對於減少這些就是"},{"start":13998.135,"end":14012.156,"text":"在網路上這樣的媒體的用語是否有達到我們的文化平衡這個方案的目標啦所以因為時間有限 但是我們在查到文化部推廣文化平衡的補助專案"},{"start":14014.659,"end":14037.379,"text":"自從106年起 每年大約就編列300萬元左右的經費補助10多個團體和個人其中與新住民相關大約占五分之一左右從網路公開查到的效果評估表中補助新住民相關的人數"},{"start":14038.34,"end":14055.112,"text":"除了113年是線上結合線下有7萬多人以外其他就是參與人數都不多啦所以我們想問的是花錢補助是否有效因為你們要推廣這個文化平權"},{"start":14063.703,"end":14093.043,"text":"所以我們部長回答不了是不是因為時間有限回答不了但是我們看到的就是有一位教授就是中山醫學大學的教授楊皓然教授有一篇登在我們的國科會文中指出目前台灣社會和政策提倡對於新住民認同與了解"},{"start":14094.124,"end":14107.939,"text":"但是通過介紹歷史文化這樣的就是只接觸留在表面而已所以缺少生活化真實互動的經驗所以難以相信"},{"start":14108.94,"end":14127.431,"text":"就是連結這樣子的感情所以提升民眾對新住民的認同效果真的有限所以我們社會還是缺雜就是同理心還有就是理解我們的不同的文化都把新住民當的外人過客所以我們才要"},{"start":14128.251,"end":14148.321,"text":"要請我們的部長你認同這樣子的楊教授的論點嗎因為我們看到你們的文化平權就是這樣子所以我們希望說文化平權的政策上要生活化互動的內容要思考如何去擴展更多人參加"},{"start":14150.442,"end":14179.69,"text":"所以部長可以做得到嗎在關於這個文化平權的推廣基本上我跟麥委員講其實台灣的新住民對台灣的貢獻很多而且台灣是一個多元文化的一個小島所以越多的文化進來我們跟文化的那個融合是對台灣文化越有幫助我個人參與過很多我們文化部的很多活動他們實際上在一些捷徑中全部都是新住民的活動這點剛剛跟"},{"start":14180.33,"end":14200.852,"text":"委員報告我們一點都沒有忽略好謝謝我們部長但是我們希望能一起及時管理台灣這個土地上就是我們是新住民不管先來後到我們都是不分你我也分內外我們希望一起合作但是因為之前"},{"start":14202.053,"end":14217.679,"text":"之前我剛來立法院我就問我們文化部我們之前有一個新住民社區營造的方案這個做得很好你們說會繼續但是到最後我還是沒有看到我今天看"},{"start":14218.619,"end":14235.773,"text":"整本你們報告裡面也跟新住民也沒有關係 但是你說有很多活動其他等等等等但是我看報告也沒有 文化平淺也是就是人數也很少但是我要求你們 之前我看到做得很好的"},{"start":14236.133,"end":14259.722,"text":"但是你們又把它就是到現在就不見了所以我們希望就是一起合作如何支持就是我們要怎麼樣去推廣我們的就是族群的平等還有這樣子的文化的交流我們才能達到共榮共榮的一起讓我們台灣更有美好的特色"},{"start":14260.923,"end":14284.042,"text":"所以部長希望你在今年再來關於新住民這個文化特色要編列一算要怎麼樣讓大家去發展不能只是永遠只是學習參與就是學習參與就變成永遠的是文化的學生但是沒辦法是發揮的平台以上 謝謝"},{"start":14286.899,"end":14302.202,"text":"謝謝謝謝馬玉珍委員質詢 部長請回座接下來請何欣淳委員質詢何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長請林院部長"},{"start":14317.253,"end":14333.885,"text":"郭委員你好部長好 辛苦了部長這幾天有一個來自菲律賓巴丹群島的省長一行人訪問團來到立法院我們有接待最主要就是來談一個計畫"},{"start":14336.866,"end":14357.137,"text":"在明年的六月會有一個蘭嶼拼板舟的一個大船要來航向蘭嶼的巴丹島想要去恢復這個斷航三百多年的海上古道那這個活動其實非常的有意義因為我們的蘭嶼達烏族人"},{"start":14359.278,"end":14371.847,"text":"跟巴丹島距離一百多公里而且截至目前都還保有百分之五、六十相同的語言我只是要表達的是說因為這經費很龐大"},{"start":14374.235,"end":14389.452,"text":"找政府部門的錢很辛苦但是文化部影視司這邊呢有補助一千兩百萬所以呢讓這個計畫成型那目前這個大洲也造好不過最主要是透過要拍攝紀錄片的這個名義來做這個補助"},{"start":14392.495,"end":14411.138,"text":"那我其實是想要跟部長表達的就是我們在夜報裡面我們也會看到很多計畫像是歐洲台灣文化年台灣文化光點計畫國家品牌風潮計畫很多這個叫做文化外交的行動"},{"start":14412.199,"end":14435.184,"text":"那麼這個其中呢就我看到有一個是跟原住民有關台灣原住民族獵人與海人的國際交流展是跟捷克的博物館那找的呢就是我們鄒族的獵人跟海人的話就是達烏族的夏曼蘭波安他們來去做我在這裡只是覺得說看起來這個文化外交行動"},{"start":14436.204,"end":14444.737,"text":"好像還是偏重於主流原住民輸出的比例是偏低的部長您有所了解嗎"},{"start":14446.414,"end":14473.828,"text":"其實我們大部分的文化活動原住民會是我們的活動中非常重要的一塊這點委員不用擔心我們的所有的舞蹈 音樂我們都依賴原住民本身的一些創作者所以剛剛您提到捷克這個我剛好這次去也特別去參觀我們就向曼南波灣為他們打造一艘非常大的船"},{"start":14474.668,"end":14491.053,"text":"做完之後就有點捨不得送他們了你就知道我們多麼有誠意所以我們國家沒有漏氣嘛對不對不會 其實我以為你放心所以部長我要談的就是說您都這麼肯定那之前以前我質詢也常常講如果壯大台灣"},{"start":14492.273,"end":14511.514,"text":"少了原住民其實就沒有什麼意思了可是您看一下就是文化部所推動的這個夜報上面講的70項歐洲藝文活動63項美洲文化交流計畫您知不知道到底有多少項目涉及原住民的藝術家或團隊"},{"start":14513.811,"end":14534.961,"text":"多少團隊我沒有太清楚可是我要跟委員好沒關係資料可以給我跟委員講像那個我們國家品牌團隊今年又增加一個布拉瑞揚的舞團他去美國八場都是我們提供他的他就是個原住民的舞者原住民的確幫了我們台灣在文化上很多的忙這點"},{"start":14536.921,"end":14564.516,"text":"請委員不用擔心謝謝部長就是有特別提到布拉瑞昂但是我其實就是要說一個小小的提醒因為這也是很多原住民藝術家的感受像這邊這個公文這個也是答物2025年他們提報了一個計畫部落周遊原住民國際交流計畫部長你們文化部的公文回應是欠難補助"},{"start":14566.017,"end":14592.638,"text":"那我就不太曉得說這樣的一個地方的團體他到底要怎麼樣才能夠得到我們文化部的幫助因為我是希望說文化部不要陷入一個邏輯一個盲點盲區就是如果說只補助那些本來就有知名度本來就有資源他們本來就有盈利能力的"},{"start":14593.118,"end":14608.537,"text":"那反而是我們的這一些必須要從土地慢慢長出來的這些沒有人來幫助他甚至他想要去交流也沒有人可以幫助他的時候部長您覺得這樣子我們的原住民文化產業有辦法健全有辦法茁壯嗎"},{"start":14612.128,"end":14629.316,"text":"我想這是一個第一申請補助案的其中一個案例因為我們每年的補助到國外去都有一個審查委員會那他是沒有過並不是因為他是原住民可能因為他企劃案寫的沒有符合我們要的"},{"start":14630.757,"end":14651.554,"text":"有很多原住民的活動都是由原民會去補助之外其實文化部投入在原住民的這個經費跟原住民的文化其實一點都沒有一點都不少那部長沒有關係因為我想我還是需要一下就是關於這一些資料那我希望可以書面提供"},{"start":14652.334,"end":14676.583,"text":"因為我們可以來盤點那我也希望說未來部長可以幫忙想想看我們怎麼樣去做一些專案或者是編列未來的這樣的一個計畫可以嗎可以沒問題那謝謝那另外一個部分就是我很關心原住民的文化資產那特別是石板屋因為我生長在南部布農族 排灣族 魯凱族"},{"start":14677.543,"end":14689.821,"text":"都有石板屋那麼我們看到這個提報的目前一共有12個那麼大概這一些12個我認為部長您覺得多還是不多"},{"start":14693.786,"end":14718.696,"text":"多還是不多啊要看它原來有多少我很難回答耶但是我覺得能夠有石板屋保留下來以我們台灣的這其中當然不是全部石板屋而且大概屏東縣的很多都是我過去的時候提報的我也很高興能夠幫助Sivayan泰雅民族起源地現在也列為重要文化景觀但是我始終覺得說"},{"start":14720.417,"end":14747.113,"text":"這些能夠成為文化景觀能夠成為聚落建築群被重視被政府補助很好可是我們也看到我們很多部落還有一些很難得的雖然是斷垣牆壁很多石板屋可是他沒有能力去幫助他為什麼因為我們的文化部要看聚不聚文資身份"},{"start":14748.273,"end":14772.598,"text":"那內政部他是要看是不是合法建物園民會他也是要看是不是合法建物要不然他也沒有辦法補助他去做修繕所以他其實找不到任何管道那因此這些東西只好被拆掉只好用可以貸款的現代建築物再重新把它蓋起來可是我們看到106到114"},{"start":14775.299,"end":14786.787,"text":"有一個文化部的私有老建築保存再生補助計畫這個當中很好宗旨叫做以時間換取新思維保留未來文化資產的機會"},{"start":14788.752,"end":14813.354,"text":"可是我不曉得說部長您可不可以了解一下我至少我知道總共249件的補助案其實我不知道原住民地區的建物到底核定多少我也希望給我這樣的一個資料那因為時間的關係我要講的是說未來我曾經質詢過部長您"},{"start":14816.463,"end":14836.381,"text":"關於石板屋要怎麼樣去私有的石板屋搶救保存其實對我們來講很重要那我也有曾經請教過您能不能夠想一些專案但是因為我目前也不知道到底有沒有那部長這個部分你有沒有可能未來能夠繼續用公務預算來推動這一類的計畫"},{"start":14838.644,"end":14867.251,"text":"我想我们事后我们研究一下在我们的预算里面的分配我想我会尽量努力好那我需要这一些书面的资料我们再来讨论未来要怎么做好不好是 没问题好 谢谢部长谢谢主席谢谢吴丽华委员咨询部长请回座接下来请郑振前委员咨询郑振前 郑振前委员不在接下来请徐富奎委员咨询"},{"start":14874.547,"end":14875.65,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們李部長請李部長"},{"start":14883.1,"end":14909.344,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想這個今年的這個預算審查文化部算是重災區這個預算被閃了6.2億追加的2.8億也被全數刪掉這個不單只是影響到這個國立台灣美術館創意中心這些國家產管的基本維護費未來對於這個產業支持國際文化交流甚至重要的文化藝術推動方面也會受到影響"},{"start":14909.904,"end":14930.898,"text":"我想包含我們各縣市政府還有許多的藝文團體大家都憂心從中部長針對這樣一個困境文化部有沒有做什麼樣的一個因應跟調整我想我們今年變成預算我想我們會盡量去努力的去溝通因為這個部分就是在立法院我們能做就是我們盡量的去跟立法委員溝通我們需要這個錢"},{"start":14932.865,"end":14941.674,"text":"部長我想不是只有這個公家機關受到影響我想因為有可能我們地方辦的一些義務活動場次減少這個我們鄉親參與的意願也減少我想這個我們都不樂見所以部長我想"},{"start":14948.28,"end":14962.763,"text":"未來我身為屏東的立委 我還是要替屏東講話我們自己這個拆劃法之後 屏東明年也少了40幾億那所以我們一些活動的補助 相對性都減少那未來這樣子部長願不願意也來繼續支持屏東的一些藝文活動"},{"start":14964.686,"end":14980.498,"text":"我一直都很支持屏東而且我常常去屏東是然後所有盡我所能的能夠在預算上能夠補助文資修復也好活動也好我想我們是滿盡力的錢都花在刀口上了是"},{"start":14981.298,"end":15002.16,"text":"部長那有一個比較重要的問題我們過去我們六堆有一個煎炮城活動當然這是屬於比較客家性質的一個活動但是因為這個過去他已經被列成全國的十二大的節慶活動之一因為過去文化部一帝這塊我們一直沒有證取到經費那部長這部分有沒有機會來納入我們在這個聯入的活動計畫裡面"},{"start":15004.622,"end":15015.467,"text":"因為他本身不具備文職身份所以在活動上我們是可以補助但是他本身因為不具備文職身份所以有些朋友我們就沒有辦法"},{"start":15016.65,"end":15039.937,"text":"但是這個是很重要的一個是非常重要的因為六堆這個活動本身是非常重要部長這個來研議看看好不好OK沒問題啊那另外我想這個今年是恆春建成150週年保證20萬5億看我們的古城那目前古城這個修復的進度部長可以說明一下嗎我請局長跟您報告很仔細的"},{"start":15041.856,"end":15065.009,"text":"徐委員 恆春古城我們有分的現在目前在西門到南門的B005到B007區段去年開工到最近已經報完工最近我們會驗收其他另外還有環城比較長的區域裡面我們現在就會採用上次徐委員也有關心我們希望可能要用分區分段的方式因為有一些涉及到私有建築"},{"start":15065.749,"end":15084.23,"text":"有一些是私有民宅另外一个是会影响到整个城内外民众的生活环境所以我们现在这个案子我们现在规划设计都已经好了工程的规划设计好了预计在年底以前会进行发包的作业这个局长我看我这个还是要加快进度因为这个已经讲了很久对 是"},{"start":15084.81,"end":15110.726,"text":"那除了這個之外 保庭有還有一個比較嚴重的問題我們這個城牆 不知道那個有卡車撞到 傷痕累累這個我們一直有提到說要做一個限高限速這個規範但是好像一直方法都提不出來現在有說一個文資局預定今年底試辦進行汽車有可能嗎這個我們的鄉親很關心這個是議題啊好 我請局長回答一下"},{"start":15112.663,"end":15136.348,"text":"委員大概您也大概在整個輿情上都看得到這個我們才其實已經進行了跟居民溝通已經快三年了跟各位因為我們很慎重就是這裡面現在目前的方案都很早就出來了北門的部分大概比較沒有問題雙向的限高價西門大概是一個重點因為這次撞了這六年來撞的大概次數最多的是西門我們現在在去年特別"},{"start":15137.188,"end":15153.408,"text":"所以最近我們在三個禮拜不到兩個多禮拜裡又到現地現場跟民眾做了說明會那現在我們就是在年底我們會辦西門的進行四輪車就是不要讓那個車輛進入只能夠用徒步的方式會示範先做示範"},{"start":15154.389,"end":15179.962,"text":"局長這一點我還是要拜託加快速度啦是不要到時候你的成本還沒修復完一天都賣掉了他啦是沒差勁啦是是不要講不可能啦因為現在你們一直提三年了還提不出對策要到地方都沒說有請測但是對策是提很早就提出來是一直在跟民眾溝通好我想要加快速度好不好那這個部分部長也要請你多關心一下我們這個相關的進度啦"},{"start":15182.742,"end":15203.336,"text":"因為它牽涉到蠻多的民眾的民宅所以我們其實一直要做可是它的溝通過程是真的比較久但是我憑良心講這個古城是全台灣唯一保留比較完整的我自己也去過它的確是未來台灣很重要的一個古蹟所以文字局其實投下去的"},{"start":15204.648,"end":15227.072,"text":"支援非常多但它只是附近居民會有很多意見這是唯一我們現在遇到的困難但是我們會盡量溝通部長其實我一直覺得這次我們的案子做一半而已照理講應該是要把城牆內外的私有土地的部分應該要一併做考量做處理要不然未來你私有土地卡在那裡它也是動彈不得了沒有錯有沒有辦法這個一併來討論解決好來處理一下好不好我們盡快好 謝謝"},{"start":15233.114,"end":15257.453,"text":"謝謝徐富堃委員質詢 部長請回座接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢謝謝主席那我們是不是有請文化部李部長跟文資局陳局長請李部長陳局長"},{"start":15264.284,"end":15293.501,"text":"蔡委員好部長部長那天我們家庭有遇到我也剛好想要那天就想要跟你講一下我們瀑子的日新醫院日新醫院它是埠住第一間的這個西醫師的醫院它在1936年當時的醫師叫做叫做圖魯圖魯他就是我們前衛福部長"},{"start":15295.342,"end":15309.497,"text":"這個圖醒澤的阿公圖醒澤的阿公這是我們珀珠第一間這個西醫院它叫做日新醫院然後你現在看起來這個是非常的具有這個文化的這個保存的這個價值"},{"start":15310.765,"end":15314.649,"text":"那這家醫院他在2013年的時候因為當時產權出售所以目前我們希望可以保存它所以後來是拜託了沛天宮就是我們柏柱在地的沛天宮去把這個產權買下來"},{"start":15329.824,"end":15348.581,"text":"所以目前是產權在沛天宮那我們嘉義縣政府也在2013同年的時候把它核定為限定古蹟所以現在這就是相同的一個限定古蹟那基本上這樣的一個古蹟我們有多次的一個討論那現在沛天宮的想法也是覺得說要給媽祖寶"},{"start":15351.283,"end":15364.908,"text":"那這個祭祀的一個精神在這一個限定古蹟的日新音樂把它展現出來所以他希望說未來這裡可以把它轉型成一個義診免費替人看病 義診的診所"},{"start":15368.429,"end":15390.035,"text":"當然要朝向疫診的診所這就等於說一間診所的病院嘛這個也要衛福部這邊再來一間協助但是不管怎樣在文資保存的部分這就需要我們文化部我們文資局來打完倒三槓所以我想要請教一下說這案已經從討論到目前截止已經超過"},{"start":15391.604,"end":15402.871,"text":"大概快要一年的時間了啦已經有重慶要一年啊那我想要問一下說整個案的一個進展的狀況是不是這邊文資局這邊可以說明一下請局長回答一下"},{"start":15404.862,"end":15424.296,"text":"委員這個案子因為他的主管機關是嘉義縣政府我們會再進一步了解就是說關於剛才提到的修復還有再利用我想這個東西再利用的部分經過討論之後因為所有權人還有這個主管機關討論之後送到審議會裡面去決定他的那個再利用的方向那經費的部分我們文字局會來協助"},{"start":15425.998,"end":15445.936,"text":"对局长就是说就我目前了解就文职局你们也很好你们有同意我们这个方向就是朝向日新医院疫诊诊所的修复规划那未来的一些补助你们有同意但是整案就是还没有核定对还没有整案还没有核定那还没有核定原因是出在哪边"},{"start":15446.896,"end":15459.087,"text":"是不是可以讓我們稍微掌握一下是說我們縣政府是不是要修訂計畫還是所有全能我們佩天公這裡要提出他未來這個議診要怎麼執行的是有細節上的困難還是怎樣不然的話變成說"},{"start":15462.369,"end":15476.694,"text":"這個大家出於一片善心想要去做這樣的一個議診時間給我拖久了這樣比較沒意思現在就是現在各地來申請的案件除了這個風災豪雨之外"},{"start":15477.214,"end":15492.24,"text":"這些是我們例行性我們的那個文化資產修復的補助案件現在案件非常多那因為現在涉及我們就是預算不足我們現在在盤點預算另外還有因為財政收支劃分法修正之後主計總署還沒有公佈縣市財力分級"},{"start":15494.361,"end":15508.537,"text":"好 那我們會整個的通盤考量再來核定這個相關的案件所以意思就會等到明年喔還要等到是 這個看起來要等到那個財力分級公佈之後我們會繼續來注意所有的這些相關補助案"},{"start":15509.418,"end":15534.963,"text":"好 如果是前面有這麼多障礙我希望這些障礙一旦排除了我們這案是不是可以趕快優先來審理因為這真的是一個很好的它未來從一個過去最老的一個西醫院未來變成一個一整的醫院這個對地方來說是百分之百的正面所以大家也期待你以文資的修復的立場它不僅僅是修復 它是再利用"},{"start":15536.163,"end":15550.753,"text":"讓他整個活化起來這個我覺得文化部在比較大的台灣籍請你拜託好 謝謝謝謝蔡易瑜委員之尋謝謝部長請回座接下來請洪孟凱委員之尋主席謝謝麻煩請李遠部長請李遠部長"},{"start":15567.691,"end":15588.789,"text":"好 部長好侯委員好部長好 非常有精神好久不見感謝 您辛苦 對啊來 部長我先請教一下這個剛剛因為本席看到你有答詢的時候很多委員也關心到所謂的這個藝人逃兵散兵的一個部分那這個我先請教以我們文化部的態度到目前為止還有沒有掌握有哪些藝人有可能逃兵"},{"start":15590.061,"end":15603.149,"text":"這點我必須承認我還不知道誰逃走不知道但是我們應該是要呼籲所有只要是中華民國國民該當兵就當兵那如果說過去真的有用非法的手段逃兵閃兵的話應該要自首也要自首嗎"},{"start":15604.496,"end":15626.985,"text":"我想我要呼籲大家如果曾經犯過這個錯誤要很勇敢的面對過去的錯誤然後向社會道歉也向他們自己本身眾多的粉絲做一個好的示範因為藝人跟其實公眾人物都一樣他就是會當作是青少年甚至很多人的表率跟模仿的一個對象"},{"start":15627.685,"end":15652.769,"text":"那我們來看到因為你這邊上有提到是說不會追回三金的獎項本席部分同意這個理由是因為三金的表現當他那一刻是在那一年的戲劇作品或相關的作品的付出跟成績並不是他過去的一個狀況我們也看到好萊塢有一些藝人他之前可能有年少輕狂的時候"},{"start":15653.129,"end":15674.487,"text":"但是最終在最後也有拿到奧斯卡金像獎等等的部分可是本席對於有一件事情我是沒有辦法接受剛剛我看到我也想要再確認怎麼會說是未來想要這些逃兵散兵的藝人鼓勵他們來拍片來說來變成是促進國軍的木兵"},{"start":15677.369,"end":15703.48,"text":"我覺得這本末倒置了沒有 這點我以為你誤會我們怎麼去找那個傘兵去演那個不是 是說我們鼓勵一些藝人來演這個東西來變成一個電影來讓大家鼓舞士氣我剛才有講到嘛其實我第一個軍教片《成功禮賛》就是我寫的嘛然後當時賣座非常好就是它有個氣氛整個社會有個氣氛以單兵為榮"},{"start":15704.821,"end":15732.043,"text":"那我們請藝人來演不是這些這個曾經閃兵人來演這兩個是完全不相關的事非常好所以部長本席來這邊就再一次確認因為有媒體已經出來剛剛的答詢居然講的是說是要找閃兵藝人來演我說這就完全錯了你怎麼會他曾經犯了錯然後結果我們還讓他好像變成是文化部要跳出來幫他洗白"},{"start":15733.485,"end":15749.865,"text":"讓他有個機會來演什麼軍教片演什麼相關的部分那到最後變成是閃兵的人反而可以拿標案啊閃兵的人反而有演出的機會那真正應該鼓勵的反而是他在演藝生涯的時候毅然決然說我要願意去當兵"},{"start":15750.345,"end":15775.447,"text":"服役物剛才可能我講話太快了一點他把這兩件事情併在一起可是你用常理判斷對用常理判斷有誰會這麼笨到說去找傘兵演這個戲非常好所以部長我就是要你親口承諾這件事情不是要找這一些劣跡斑斑的藝人來去說協助拍片還是讓他有洗白的機會我想"},{"start":15777.169,"end":15794.05,"text":"他們的聲譽或說他們的演繹我也尊重跟他們無冤無仇但是他們要負起他們應該要負責任可是如果說真的要做我們要鼓勵跟形塑這個報國愛校國家的文化的應該是鼓勵有當過兵的"},{"start":15795.114,"end":15820.449,"text":"不要說加分啦但至少是你不能去縱容他們這樣行為然後好像讓他們有洗白的機會吧這點部長你同意當然當然不會要洗白因為洗白也去演這個不是也蠻諷刺的嗎是本席就是因為這樣所以才覺得說你不可能找一個有前科的人來演這個正義的使者你不可能找吸毒的人來演說是說不要吸毒找酒駕的人講說不要酒後開車"},{"start":15821.289,"end":15846.204,"text":"不可能嘛我是覺得曾經犯過錯誤的藝人能夠勇敢面對自己的錯誤跟社會道歉跟他粉絲道歉他是一個很正面的對台灣的教育還有台灣社會是一個很正面就是你犯了錯就道歉他有自首的勇氣有道歉的勇氣但是不是說我們再去給他創造機會來去好 那部長最後一分鐘"},{"start":15847.694,"end":15873.659,"text":"我覺得韓國有這種當兵很驕傲的文化真的我們有看到韓國有些藝人他們去當兵的時候甚至他覺得說這個是當兵練體格當然不完全是文化部的事因為國防部其實應該要去思考為什麼韓國人為什麼現在韓國我們如果說有些朋友去自助旅行韓國路上是蠻多大大隻佬就很壯有在健身的人"},{"start":15875.67,"end":15890.327,"text":"韓國的藝人會把去當兵當成是一種榮耀甚至是這個自我提升修煉然後再出來再回到演藝圈的時候他是可以接受媒體的掌聲跟那個那台灣為什麼沒有辦法做"},{"start":15890.487,"end":15917.864,"text":"我覺得委員你問到一個關鍵就是因為韓國人他本身非常團結而且他的民族性很強悍譬如他自己要看自己韓片要用韓國東西韓國最強甚至他改寫歷史韓國是一個強國台灣以前早期我們被訓練成也是覺得自己很大大中國我們要愛國我們要現身變成一個偉大的軍人像我擔兵兩年我還自動請求去前線"},{"start":15919.325,"end":15942.404,"text":"就是我那個年代就是這樣子我希望台灣未來大家共同的凝聚一個作為台灣人是驕傲的為台灣打戰是驕傲的我想這是一個整體來大家都要努力的我們在野黨也好執政黨也好我們努力來做作為一個台灣軍人是光榮的我覺得這是一個整體大家從媒體也好"},{"start":15944.181,"end":15961.898,"text":"各方面來push這個事情不是當方面可以做得到所以這是一個文化的形塑對 是不只國防部 文化部本席以身為中華民國國民為榮以生活在台灣這塊土地為榮我也認同啊所以說我剛剛您說您當兩年兵我當一年四個月的兵"},{"start":15962.438,"end":15981.969,"text":"但是我們都該進的依我們進但更重要其實還有很多方面因為今天有限但是本席未來還有針對您剛有提到其實韓國他們有一些文化的塑造甚至他為什麼K-pop那麼的紅還有韓國有些時候在文化的話語權上面他們也持續的來去搶這個話語權"},{"start":15984.19,"end":16002.102,"text":"那歷史以及這些相關的話語權我覺得這都是我們未來可以再做救教的部分但最重要的我覺得還是在這個當兵閃兵的議題上面不能倒英為國不能讓錯誤的榜樣變成是國人的示範這點沒問題好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":16004.089,"end":16016.274,"text":"謝謝侯孟楷委員質詢部長請回座接下來請陳培瑜培瑜委員質詢培瑜委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在"},{"start":16021.257,"end":16046.542,"text":"今天登记质询委员均已发言完毕另有谢荣介曾陪与委员提出书面质询关于今天会议座如下决定报告及询答完毕委员所提书面质询或相关资料列入记录并刊登公报对于委员质询要求提供相关资料及未及答复部分请相关机关尽速以书面答复"},{"start":16047.222,"end":16051.404,"text":"报告委员会今天议程处理完毕现在休息谢谢各位"}]}},{"id":"165127","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165127","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d245b9c1055b108a7dd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:02:45 - 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再次有請部長 然後消防署長委員好 部長好我先謝謝啦 因為像之前花家殺颱風的時候大家都在關注花蓮顏色湖"},{"start":25.492,"end":46.077,"text":"那麼在台東物路力道南橫端那邊其實發生很嚴重的災情但是消息比較緩慢那我要特別謝謝因為消防署在這邊也謝謝內政部長因為我們很多的人民跟我們求救請求協助的時候我們"},{"start":47.397,"end":73.105,"text":"來打電話都立刻處理像是那個時候有三名就是需要洗腎的病人那也謝謝出動直升機去把他們帶出來那很多的救援的一個事項我個人是覺得說其實老百姓都很感謝因為他們覺得效率很好在這邊先說聲謝謝那另外就是也跟消防署有關就是"},{"start":74.125,"end":88.95,"text":"我在上一屆進來立法院的時候特別針對向山致敬政策有做過很多次的質詢當時蘇貞昌院長是回應說向山是政策 致敬是態度"},{"start":89.77,"end":105.16,"text":"所以呢當時我也很關心就是關於登山基地我希望能夠去做一些登山基地好讓那些登山的人能夠有一個起點那如果有什麼事故呢也可以在那個地方"},{"start":105.78,"end":129.239,"text":"有一個通報所以後來國家公園跟林保署都有回應說要開始早點做只是好像又過了兩三年好像不了了之所以我來這邊質詢只是說我想了解一下可以給我提供數據 數面資料讓我了解進度我可不可以請兩位署長跟您先回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":132.212,"end":142.334,"text":"委員關心高雄市這個案件我們跟高雄市協調好那可以用初請的車輛的一個費用已經處理好那個我知道了謝謝對好"},{"start":143.823,"end":172.619,"text":"那个委员问的登山基地是不是会委托部落这边来协助的这个议题吗没有那个时候其实我也有亲自去看过都有开过说明会说会选点做登山基地因为有的是属于国家公园的有的是属于林保署的我们的部分后来好像就不了了之有预管的这个部分我们跟东浦部落这边其实有在"},{"start":174.079,"end":200.173,"text":"有在跟他們溝通那在太館這邊還有在還有一個地方雪壩那邊事實上我們有跟部落這邊來做溝通我們是希望他們能夠我希望也能夠通知辦公室要不然我覺得很多人問我說委員我們都有看到你質詢然後你也有做圖卡結果呢他們問我說到底結果如何那我自己也不知道好嗎"},{"start":202.114,"end":231.254,"text":"會後再提供 相關這三個國家公務員不過唯一我要謝謝的就是目前因為那時候有爭取到營建署有補助經費所以在屏東那邊的大武山登山基地那個已經很棒了所以我在這個地方也跟我們營建署現在叫國土署來致謝接下來我就是想說剛才消防署長知道我要問什麼就立刻先告訴我我這樣子說我其實只是要鋪陳"},{"start":232.294,"end":254.347,"text":"因為那個時候既然致敬是態度我接到很多族人的陳情跟我說委員我們經常幫忙去救難也背大體重點是我的車子也載大體也沒有看到有表揚也沒有看到給我們獎金所以那時候我有質詢我很高興112年的時候質詢有告訴我說會開始編我確實也看到"},{"start":261.691,"end":279.88,"text":"提升三育事故救援效能五年忠誠計畫我以為說計畫也有了 經費也編列了直到有人跟我講說委員你那個時候也有做圖卡說以後救援的話會有獎金有表揚跟我說怎麼沒有所以我回過頭來問有是有跟我們想像的不一樣"},{"start":284.022,"end":302.017,"text":"原來這些是交給一個協會去處理那我就不懂了這個協會怎麼會知道全國各地發生的救援情形而且這些人他也不知道這個協會是誰他也不知道要找誰他唯一能夠找的就是當地的消防分隊可是消防分隊說不知道"},{"start":303.467,"end":308.731,"text":"所以這個部分我其實也有邀請我們的副署長有來辦公室討論目前我知道的改善計畫就如剛才消防署長所講的那兩部車如果有再大體就編錢給他但是我覺得這個跟我們當時的初衷不一樣"},{"start":321.92,"end":328.164,"text":"所以我現在要講的是說後來又告訴我說那我們在原住民的部分做一個原住民特收隊啦也是很高興我們聽了也是很高興但是呢我看到計畫裡面只有補助救援裝備器材訓練課程而且我看到你們的會議記錄地方政府是說可能沒有什麼誘因人員招募會很困難"},{"start":347.896,"end":355.152,"text":"所以我想了解說如果沒有誘因的狀況下沒有獎金不知道能不能夠招募成功署長"},{"start":358.16,"end":379.52,"text":"是很感謝委員我們3月計畫跟委員報告目前明年的委託計畫事實上不是一個協會是每個縣有好幾個協會那每個協會裡面都有原住民同胞可能這樣一個處理可能還沒有辦法沒辦法達到委員所關心的一個目標所以明年度的一個委託計畫目前我們正在跟法律"},{"start":380.82,"end":391.146,"text":"顧問這邊再來討論如果說釋法可以做的話明年度就可以朝向比較開放的方式來執行我希望能夠救我們原來的初衷就是很簡單消防署消防分隊有叫我去救援"},{"start":396.269,"end":416.886,"text":"那我希望有個表揚希望能夠有個獎勵金就這麼簡單那我希望這個部分能夠再去考慮只是我現在要講的是說如果把剛才講的這個救援計畫跟現在的原住民特搜隊有沒有可能把它有一個整併的方式"},{"start":417.506,"end":444.517,"text":"是跟委員報告原住民特收對現在就是我們採取比較開放的方式不設定說它是什麼主軸那主要是原住民能夠進來可以針對山區的一個救援能夠加入就跟委員關心的願不願意進來有什麼優因所以我們也考慮就是剛才3D計畫這個區塊怎麼做一個搭配做一個結合我希望能夠搭配如果朝原住民特收然後去做這樣的那個我覺得"},{"start":445.557,"end":461.611,"text":"這樣子應該大家都會很耐心好 畢竟救援都在山區嘛也不會在平地好 謝謝那請給我最後一分鐘我只要講一分鐘部長 請教一下你看一下這個照片因為我照片 那個天花板掉下來因為我"},{"start":463.372,"end":482.94,"text":"兩個月前有接到一個任務就是現在要做這些什麼原家中心文件站他們都是去借公共空間能借的大概這幾年都借完了舊的派出所 舊的衛生所舊的什麼辦公 村辦公室能借的都借了那他們跟我講什麼呢就是颱風的時候突然整個天花板掉下來"},{"start":488.303,"end":515.703,"text":"那很危險所以他們跟我說能不能夠臨時幫他們找一些貨櫃屋讓他們做臨時的辦公室那我也做到了就是有一個貨櫃40尺的裝潢得很漂亮讓他們做一個臨時辦公室我其實要講的是說其實我不曉得內政部這個地方有沒有可能去想一個辦法因為教育部因為我們大概這些地方的公共建物國民政府來之後"},{"start":517.506,"end":532.8,"text":"都蓋得很簡陋後來大概民國五十幾年六十幾年齁陸續就是有蓋比較好的聽社可是又過了五六十年現在那些又變成是老舊的可是像國小的校舍國中的校舍教育部有編列經費"},{"start":534.721,"end":558.86,"text":"讓他們在這幾年全面都變成新的校舍可是我看到很多的代表會也好 鄉公所也好 村辦公室也好哇 很辛苦啊 非常的辛苦那現在政府推那麼多社福政策我們也找不到公共空間可以利用所以只是想要問說我們內政部 民政事這邊有沒有可能去"},{"start":559.961,"end":572.255,"text":"想一想要怎麼樣來編列這樣的科目預算那未來呢也許利用8年的時間4年的時間把這個全國的需要改善的空間都能夠來處理好嗎"},{"start":574.512,"end":602.042,"text":"包委員 前瞻預算我們到目前為止已經補助了原鄉地區的公所跟代表會有19件有5億多元村里集會所也補助了26件有7千多萬不過前瞻的預算是到今年8月底為止那後續我們會配合行政院的政策看看如何來協助地方要主動啊原住民55個鄉鎮才做了多少年19個"},{"start":603.703,"end":616.661,"text":"我還沒有把那個村辦公室活動中心算進去喔我想教育部可以這樣子做我們內政部也應該來爭取行政院的經費好不好好 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艷澀湖等災害內政部在第一時間即統籌調度全國消防與空勤救災量能"},{"start":1701.121,"end":1719.862,"text":"將搶救機具馳援災區易整合警消等各系統投入災後復原工作並且進駐行政院災後復原前進協調所及衛助一致站式的平台直接提供受災民眾諮詢及受理衛助金申請等服務全力協助民眾早日恢復正常的生活"},{"start":1720.422,"end":1737.441,"text":"在此內政部要感謝所有在災區當中挺身而出的每一位內政部同仁以及很多志工的朋友讓受災家庭可以及時獲得政府的支持加速回復家園以下僅就三大面向跟各位委員做一下簡要的報告"},{"start":1738.101,"end":1765.2,"text":"第一个在建构安全韧性社会防护网上面守护国土安全一为了因应复合型大规模灾害做好各项防救灾整备强化社会韧性第一厚实基础防灾的整备量能在114年推展全国368个乡镇区公所完成筹组防灾协作中心并且配置具基础急救训练等资格的现役替代役"},{"start":1765.88,"end":1782.039,"text":"備役替代役則結合各地方政府勤務編組管理中心提升災害應變的效率此外也依循任性特別條例推動關鍵基礎設施防護裝備升級等工作讓國土安全防護體系更加強健第二"},{"start":1782.579,"end":1805.125,"text":"擴大全民參與防災逐步拓展民間不同行業人士加入防災室的培訓從村里長幹事國公營事業計程車司機公寓大廈管委會成員保全人員甚至宗教團體民間團體等等已經培訓超過七萬三千名防災室第三加強高風險區域的防護"},{"start":1806.904,"end":1821.06,"text":"現在已經針對13個縣市當中共有184處議程孤島落實避難收容處所儲備物資等整備作業並且在全國佈建超過900台手持式的衛星電話增強防救災應變通訊"},{"start":1823.583,"end":1848.418,"text":"2強韌全社會防衛量能內政部秉持有準備更安全的理念以實地演練的方式檢視精進各個環節應變作為例如攜手民間賣場在114年7月在北中南三個地方同步演練也配合行政院2025城鎮韌性演習實施實作演練提升社會韌性的正向循環另外在9月的"},{"start":1849.098,"end":1860.782,"text":"國家防災日以模擬琉球海溝錯動引發規模8.5強震及海嘯侵襲的情境動員全國有19個縣市三大電信業者各民間團體14國國際救援隊跟21個駐台管處全面檢驗"},{"start":1867.445,"end":1891.144,"text":"應變作為確保政府與民間攜手形成堅實的防線三 協助災害復原的部分一 為了快速協助丹納斯颱風及728豪雨受災區域統籌調度各式機具人力優先解決民眾生活上不便並且調派1350名具EMT-1等救護資格的替代役支援雲嘉南總共41個行政區"},{"start":1892.785,"end":1913.095,"text":"同時派員實地勘查台南嘉里嘉義東石等重災區協助修繕攜手地方及民間全力加速各項工作的進程其中有關家園復原未住金10萬元專案已經核定6萬2千零18件另外恰定517家廠商投入民宅修復"},{"start":1913.775,"end":1939.326,"text":"完成施工1128戶內政部將持續重整復原措施不分屋損修繕面積要加發2萬元由卓院長指示的補助事項同時為提供受災區域更多支持與協助在原有機制上擴大投入協助地方市區道路橋樑等重要設施搶修及復建以期早日能夠恢復美好家園"},{"start":1940.106,"end":1969.07,"text":"二面對華家沙颱風豪雨引起花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖的災情不分中央或地方即刻展開搜索救援包括空勤直升機成功吊掛救出7位受困居民總共救援了717位民眾另外調度重型機具共赴災區一步一步讓道路能夠暢通同時也啟動首次花蓮備役替代役計191人協助家園清理等工作"},{"start":1969.75,"end":1996.519,"text":"此外內政部也提供家園復原衛助金及受災戶住宅補貼專案即受理衛助金申請3714件租金補貼112件房屋結構安全評估196件以最快的速度來衛助災民後續內政部將會持續協助各項道路下水道工程及中紀屋等設施救助資源付諸行動扶持地方鄉親部落族人解決困難"},{"start":1997.32,"end":2000.733,"text":"儘速完成光復箱等復原重建的工作"},{"start":2002.27,"end":2027.424,"text":"其次在營造安心優質移居環境建設幸福家園方面一擴大居住照顧的服務內政部秉持經濟民生青年弱勢四個市政優先以務實態度解決民眾居住問題截至一百一十四年十月抵止已提供超過百萬租屋家庭的支持同時內政部也結合社會住宅包租代管及租金補貼等三大方向"},{"start":2027.924,"end":2049.938,"text":"推展青年婚育租屋協助專案預計114年底由中央興辦社會住宅提供超過1000戶與新婚及育有學齡前幼兒家庭優先入住115年開始並且會透過補貼金額加碼的四大措施讓青年婚育族群穩居、趕婚、怨聲、樂養預估約有5.2萬戶家庭會受惠"},{"start":2053.84,"end":2081.613,"text":"另外为了促使租赁市场的资讯透明114年7月发布第三次租金统计未来每年定期两次公布租金行情并且从114年9月底起扩大租屋纠纷协助委托法服基金会提供免费法律诉讼服务协助弱势租屋民众争取自身租屋的权益此外研修预售物买卖定型化契约应该记载及不得记载事项"},{"start":2082.173,"end":2099.317,"text":"明定購屋款應專款專用於興建工程等規範課證尋法制作業辦理當中二推動建物轉型與環境永續依據任性特別條例政府將投入50億元在116年底前推動500棟老舊建築物賦能"},{"start":2102.578,"end":2129.723,"text":"以承包行政院老宅延壽機能復興計畫為老舊建築物重塑新功能實踐就地安養在地安老的社會關懷進一步加大建築轉型力道方面為了落實建築部門減碳擬具淨零碳建築減碳旗艦行動計畫行政院已經在114年10月底核定擴大工部門建築能效改善示範案例以其帶動民間參與加速淨零碳建築的擴散"},{"start":2132.764,"end":2134.786,"text":"預估在119年減碳量可達約670萬公噸的二氧化碳當量"},{"start":2140.356,"end":2156.928,"text":"第三 深化治安的維護力度隨著人工智慧快速發展詐騙形態日趨複雜威脅攜手部會全面升級打詐同時集結全國警力在114年執行三波全國同步打擊詐欺行動專案經統計114年9月每日平均受理詐騙案數目與財損金額與上年同期相較分別下降22%及44%"},{"start":2169.236,"end":2194.538,"text":"為了遏阻詐欺犯罪重複再犯減少受騙與財損內政部 政與法務部等機關研修詐房條例研議增加巨額詐欺處罰級距與刑責以發揮懲詐的功效同時在114年3月15日定定發布原住民漁民自製獵槍漁槍許可及管理辦法以建立完善的槍炮管理制度"},{"start":2195.599,"end":2213.712,"text":"針對民眾關心的毒品駕車案件在114年9月實施了全國同步加強茶器、毒價及伊托米籽類毒品專案並將持續以高密度淋檢、入檢、嚴加茶器同步導入快速篩檢工具以二組毒價保障用路人安全"},{"start":2214.432,"end":2237.952,"text":"最後在優化友善內政服務效能方面一營造多元共榮的社會落實國定假日法制內政部針對專業節日放假規劃已經律定6月15日警察節以及1月19日消防節放假的作業原則分別自114年底以及115年起實施以肯定警消同仁的專業貢獻並且激勵團隊服務的熱忱"},{"start":2241.835,"end":2259.051,"text":"二内政部将依循大院114年10月17日三读通过行政区划程序法尽数完备相关的配套执法以利于在115年7月1日前施行使行政区域调整得符合地方治理与发展需求"},{"start":2260.626,"end":2289.785,"text":"第三推展新住民多元文化内政部在114年3月修正发布新住民发展基金收支保管及运用办法以促进更多媒体投入提供丰富而且多样的新住民生活资讯另外推动新住民事务专责机关之设立以拟据本部移民署本部新住民发展署组织法等三部组织法草案均于114年10月9日韩报行政院审查当中"},{"start":2290.325,"end":2318.019,"text":"第二推展便捷通關服務為了應對疫後解封國際旅客量從114年10月1號起全面實施電子A卡的填報系統TWAC讓外籍旅客可以更輕鬆完成填報享受快速便捷的通關體驗並且兼顧國境安全的維護同時持續擴建E-GATE讓在台民眾透過最新生物辨識技術查驗身份即可輕鬆通過"},{"start":2319.099,"end":2339.378,"text":"经统计至114年8月底国人使用率较疫情前已经有成长三成以上第三持续提升国家公园永续量能与服务品质为利民众能够亲近山林已经完成整新整建27座山屋更与民间企业强化山屋能源自主能力"},{"start":2339.858,"end":2354.88,"text":"为民间资源投入山林保育树立合作的典范同时内政部也多次与相关机关专家团体就登山活动保险等事项讨论可行措施及做法希望能够营造负责任永续的登山文化"},{"start":2355.481,"end":2377.723,"text":"另一方面國家公園、濕地與海岸等關鍵碳會場域目前已經完成自然碳會盤點與組織碳盤查作業在114年8月4日也舉辦了碳會低碳淨零綠生活國家公園永續路徑研討會希望能夠提升社會參與跟政策推動力再來為了維護海洋生態的多樣性"},{"start":2378.464,"end":2400.123,"text":"在6月9號到10號有完成南方四島八個策站的調查並且持續執行東沙環礁海域監測作業以其形成完整的海洋生態維護的網絡系統為了深化自然保育與文化傳承雙軌並進的理念內政部在8月下旬也舉辦了金門國家公園成立30週年的國際研討會"},{"start":2402.285,"end":2423.319,"text":"邀請國內外專家學者共同來檢視多年來在自然生態建築保存戰役始積活化等的守護成果希望能夠展現永續治理的成效在結語方面對於大眾以及各位民代所關心的議題內政部始終秉持務實的態度持續精進相關的政策作為"},{"start":2424.019,"end":2450.778,"text":"另外立法院在第十一屆第三會期內政委員會通過有關本部臨時提案辦理情形降付候表敬請參閱那我們在最後的時候呢因為我們的消防署他有做一個非常簡單兩分多鐘的一個影片要感謝在第一線努力救災的各個警消同仁是否在主席同意之下我們可以放映好嗎好那以上報告請各位委員先進多多指教謝謝好"},{"start":2455.785,"end":2457.168,"text":"大概煮一会儿"},{"start":2518.655,"end":2518.815,"text":"聲音大雲"},{"start":2553.433,"end":2560.796,"text":"謝謝 因為大家都沒有看過這個項目但是在這個規定當中我們感謝所付出到三天的超人那麼感謝內政部的劉部長的報告我們現在來進行巡打委員巡打會做幾點宣告"},{"start":2582.847,"end":2589.172,"text":"每位委員發言的時間分會委員五分鐘 必要的時間延長兩分鐘那不是分會委員五分鐘 會在十點半 直接發言登記這個會議沒有要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎我們請"},{"start":2612.574,"end":2616.256,"text":"第一位長期的張志龍委員發言好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉仕芳部長委員早"},{"start":2636.892,"end":2658.743,"text":"好 謝謝部長 首先因為台灣因應極端氣候當然發生了很多的這個天災意外那這邊本席還是剛剛看了這兩分鐘的影片非常感動還是非常感謝在所有在台灣救災需要幫助的人我們所有警察消防以及第一線同仁的努力大家辛苦了也謝謝部長帶領友方"},{"start":2660.267,"end":2678.174,"text":"好那接下來我要請教尤其剛剛看到很多風災雨災尤其剛剛部長的報告裡面也特別提到丹奈斯颱風對於台南跟嘉義所造成的災情的嚴重跟重創那直到現在這個家園還在這個整修恢復當中"},{"start":2680.489,"end":2705.171,"text":"尤其當時我還記得一個新聞非常的重要就是有關於光電板的損壞當時有13萬左右的光電板受到損壞我一直在追蹤這些光電板的何去何從其實現在這些13萬的光電板現在其實能再使用的比例只有3萬片還有將近9萬片的光電板現在是無法處理當中"},{"start":2706.345,"end":2713.304,"text":"那我也希望部長了解這件事情那為什麼今天要問這些事情呢就是因為現在我們看到新聞我們"},{"start":2717.625,"end":2742.39,"text":"内政部在今年2月当时有预告一个建筑物设置光电太阳光电发电标准的一个草案在今年的2月预告那我们看到新闻说在今年年底就会正式上路这让我们非常的担心因为我们才看到戴奈斯台风造成我们台湾所有光电板的损坏当时加以造成17级的阵风摧毁了13万的光电板"},{"start":2743.223,"end":2771.174,"text":"那這樣的風災已經血淋淋的表示在極端氣候下太陽能光電板的結構安全是脆弱的那內政部有沒有檢討現在我們所有暗場的安危那現在的規定我們可以看到是要求說這個新建增建或改建街屋的面積如果達1000平方公尺就是300坪以上就應該是強制應該要設太陽光電不過當然有些例外條件可是我們有最關心的"},{"start":2771.943,"end":2799.658,"text":"我們的工廠我們的民用的住宅這些其實都被涵蓋在我們的草案裡面我要想要請教我們看到丹納斯颱風這樣的狀況我們現在這些光電板未來再設置在我們的民間不管是在住家廠房的時候請問施工品質消防安全跟漏水安全以及未來的修繕等等這些安全請問內政部已經快要上路了內政部有沒有一個通盤的檢討"},{"start":2801.117,"end":2829.846,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想委員一定非常了解有關於屋頂設置光電板的這個部分不是只有內政部還包括經濟部所以是跨部會所以我們在公告的過程當中也知道說這個屋頂要設置光電板的其實他是為了有節能減碳的效果那所以目前會處理的以公有建築或者是工廠面積超過1000平方米為主那還沒有要涉及到一般的民間的部分那至於相關的部分到目前為止"},{"start":2830.966,"end":2851.125,"text":"行政院還沒有同意我們預告的時候什麼時候做公佈也就表示說對於委員所關心的包括他的成本或是管理甚至會不會造成有一些其他的一個公共安全的部分呢必須要內政部還有經濟部再做比較詳細的一個檢討那相關的部分我是不是可以請署長跟您回應一下"},{"start":2852.625,"end":2874.683,"text":"等一下我要先打個岔 因為我跟部長跟署長報告一下因為草案就在我手上 它裡面沒有限制任何的這個剛剛講的說部長雖然說工友的跟工廠的先行可是在這裡面的草案裡面它沒有限制您剛剛所講的任何的這個只有限制工友或是工廠部分它是所有連民生的所有都適用"},{"start":2875.632,"end":2891.418,"text":"所以 對 還沒有公布那我們現在看到草案是這樣所以我們非常擔心所以我要跟署長跟部長講一下因為如果你一個光電板你設在一個高樓而且尤其在台灣在工廠跟住宅區跟工業區的分界其實有時候就只有一條馬路"},{"start":2893.066,"end":2911.237,"text":"那這樣未來民眾何去何從那如果你在高樓頂上面設的光電板因為國有土地本來就是配合政府政策我們現在怕的是民間尤其丹納斯颱風摧毀的光電板他不會管你是公有民間的什麼樣的光電板要未來這些在頂樓的光電板誰要去修繕"},{"start":2912.956,"end":2934.281,"text":"所以我還是要請署長這邊直接再加強回覆一下是不是要給我們比較安心一點如果這個草案真的變成實施下去了現在是陰耶如果沒有做就是違法耶所以我們一直在剛剛也在會請的時候跟部長跟署長拜託像我之前本身我本人我去日本旅遊的時候我去熊本熊本都是在農村那兩層樓上面的在射光電板"},{"start":2935.89,"end":2954.883,"text":"補助讓這些在鄉村的人民他們有自己用使用光電板的權利而是台灣我們在人口密集的工業區或是住宅區因為這法條沒有限制住宅區是免除的在設光電板以後在高樓大廈結構安全這些問題要怎麼去處理如果這個法條過了當然還沒有過過了的話就來不及了"},{"start":2957.574,"end":2982.988,"text":"那我們到底要人民要何去何從我們想從灘大師颱風已經這麼多的救災人這麼辛苦的奔波如果我們不好好去關注這個法案的修法的話如果一通過那未來何去何從再拜託署長回答一下感謝委員因為的確這一個草案當時在提的時候我們跟經濟部大概都有會商一些技術上的問題也就包含說施工技術的問題那還有這一個事後維管"},{"start":2983.41,"end":3004.565,"text":"那以及甚至在這個成本分攤的部分都有跟經濟部充分反映過這些問題因為這才是後續三大應該要重視的對 可是這三個目前還沒有一個共識嘛我跟委員報告啦當然對於施工規範的部分經濟部能源署雖然有訂定一個施工的一個標準但是就像委員所提到的就是說民眾還是會擔心現在的現行的施工規範"},{"start":3005.7,"end":3023.688,"text":"在颱風的這個強壓底下強風底下到底能不能過關這個部分我們會跟經濟部在討論再要求還有事後維管的責任還有經費的分攤因為沒有人願意去高樓大廈比如說二十幾層樓的未來誰去更換這都會有很大的問題所以我才說這部分我們在過程當中都有跟經濟部"},{"start":3024.69,"end":3049.569,"text":"反應因為這部分後續在經濟部這裡去做訂定相關的一個委管那所以這個部分我想現在草案還在審議當中還沒有訂定期限還沒有訂定實時期因為當時內政部的新聞稿這邊有寫說在年底會公佈原來是希望在這樣但過程當中的確有非常多的這個民間單位也有工廠部門都有提出一些反應意見那這部分我們都會"},{"start":3051.61,"end":3059.359,"text":"所以現在目前為止你們還要再跟經濟部研議不會在年底就公佈吧不會不會好謝謝謝謝署長好那有請部長"},{"start":3063.035,"end":3089.24,"text":"部長這個是比較政治性的議題在我們115年度的最後一個問題115年度的預算裡面有1.22億的新興計劃我相信這時候當時的新聞你有看到它是1.22億包含捐助2025年國際符輪社的場地費2000萬我相信台灣要舉辦國際性的符輪社年會我們都非常的支持只是當時很多人會認為說這個是不是外交部"},{"start":3090.462,"end":3111.235,"text":"應該要處理的項目之一那內政部怎麼會再做外交部的工作這個是第一點是不是想請你就是說把大家的疑慮把它給解決那就一起問那因為總共是1.22億那總共2000萬是補助租金的費用那剩下的1億元是用來做什麼那就我們所稍微詢問一下是說讓其他的團體"},{"start":3112.296,"end":3122.364,"text":"都可以來申請這樣的經費那我是不是可以請教一下現在目前有申請的團體有沒有人已經報名開始申請了那如何才能申請這樣的經費報告委員我想我們是基於要發展觀光要推展會展產業那那個有關國際性大社團他們要過來我們幫忙來處理有關這個展場裡面的租金的費用這已經有潛力不是沒有潛力我們是基於這樣的沒有特別執迷也不是政治議題"},{"start":3140.237,"end":3168.699,"text":"那你如果是國際性大的社團願意把國外的很多觀光客引到台灣來的話也可以到我們這邊申請還有交通部觀光局或觀光署也有這方面的申請的案件或者經濟部的會展產業都有那我們只是一起協助沒有特別指名什麼團體所以意思就是協辦我覺得就是讓部長在這邊說明清楚那請問現在目前另外的1億元的經費有單位有來申請嗎沒有 目前沒有都還沒有來申請那什麼時候可以開始來申請只有一個我們知道就是"},{"start":3169.997,"end":3184.787,"text":"福倫社因為他們兩三年前就去申請跟國際的福倫社一起申請所以我們知道有這個部分就只有這樣而已好那本席在這邊也支持這個台灣的能見度在國際上可以被看到我們是基於這樣子的原因好謝謝謝謝部長大家辛苦了謝謝我們感謝張志仁委員接受我們這次訴求會委員"},{"start":3204.332,"end":3206.462,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長請保重"},{"start":3213.035,"end":3233.247,"text":"好委員早部長好部長我們立法院在禮拜一的時候去考察了新北的污水建設那我想在這個考察的過程當中我們也確認了幾個狀況就是第一感謝我們政府過去八年來對新北市其實真的是大力補助所以補助其實高達211億元"},{"start":3235.441,"end":3240.925,"text":"211億元所以這個是全國第一高的補助經費當然新北市政府也積極施作所以這個累積管數已經達到了126萬多戶也是全國第一所以在這樣的狀況下我們覺得持續應該進行不過也看得出來因為新北很大"},{"start":3256.738,"end":3285.125,"text":"所以這個區域各個地區29個鄉鎮區其實它的整個落差接管率是差別很大像我來自這個樹林英哥這個地方我們的接管率其實並沒有到五成是相對來講是非常落後的地方英哥甚至只有23%而已所以我當場其實就是提議就是未來如果我們還有機會在這個中央在補助地方在建置污水建設的時候呢那是不是可以"},{"start":3286.161,"end":3298.429,"text":"改變指標讓地方的縣市政府如果有優先平衡自己區域內的不同接管率地區的時候這一種平衡調整這個平衡縣市內區域發展的話那麼我們就可以把它在競爭型計畫裡面可以列為是優先的那當場呢對於我這樣的建議次長是表達肯定方向可以帶回去研議這樣的狀態那我非常的感謝"},{"start":3316.181,"end":3333.868,"text":"所以整個考察我覺得其實是滿好的讓我們大家可以了解說其實中央政府這幾年真的對各縣市當然包括我們的新北市其實補助是非常多的不過啦在這樣的一片肯定當中其實部長有一個問題就是可能要請你在備詢台這邊再表示一下"},{"start":3334.648,"end":3339.433,"text":"因為我們最後的結語對於前面的樂觀未來卻不是如此因為在才化法修正之後確實未來我們的中央這裡的經費相對來講預算是少了很多所以污水建設到底能不能夠像過去有這樣的補助或是我們會面臨什麼樣的窘境"},{"start":3356.392,"end":3377.3,"text":"或者調整在這裡因為次長當下是沒有辦法的就這部分回答所以部長你的看法呢好 謝謝委員首先先謝謝委員委員大概昨天有看到新聞就是我們的產值超人李同生先生他已經可以入住中列慈那也是委員當時在內政委員會的提案是 非常感謝內政部那我們跟衛福部一起努力完成也謝謝委員的幫忙謝謝"},{"start":3378.12,"end":3396.905,"text":"那再來就是有關您昨天到新北市在看有關污水下水道的部分我就直接跳入重點第一個現在新北市的污水下水道的比例在內政部裡面呢其實是比例最高的高達11.45%但是也因為新北市的人口非常的多沒有錯那還有就是現在在這個檢討有關財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3399.026,"end":3417.362,"text":"因為污水下水道對很多縣市長或很多縣市政府來講是一個比較頭痛麻煩的問題因為他牽涉到土地或是人民的麻煩所以我們會想要跟這個包括中央地方政府來建議一下就是污水下水道可不可以單獨把它列為是一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":3419.023,"end":3439.491,"text":"計劃型的補助而不是列入這個補助款裡面要中央地方來做區分因為不只是有新北市其他都會地區他們也有污水下水道進度不夠的部分那所以我如果能夠朝著這個方向的話也希望我也能夠支持那同時呢地方政府呢他在補助比例上面其實他們也可以多考慮"},{"start":3441.004,"end":3465.326,"text":"如果以剛剛那個委員所提的樹林三峽跟英哥來看他的這個接管率的比例這麼低還有甚至像英哥現在是快速發展的區域也只有24%不到那就我所了解在地方政府尤其是新北市呢他們現在有12億元的下水道的使用費收入如果呢新北市的政府願意有12億元的下水道使用費收入也把它投注進去做這個"},{"start":3466.587,"end":3488.262,"text":"這個污水下水道的建設計畫我們也樂觀其成也就是補助的比例呢我們很希望說地方投注越多越好來協助然後不要變成是說因為一般補助到時候那個在地方上面的補助要增加那個中央的補助要降低的狀況之下反而影響到污水下水道的工程進度我們比較不希望朝這個方向來考量"},{"start":3489.322,"end":3515.39,"text":"當然啦 這個基本上就是一旦中央跟地方可以互相配合的時候其實這個建設是可以施作的很快但未來錢 權到底要怎麼區分或者是要放在一般型還是計劃型的話我覺得這就有賴未來的狀況下我們要做適度的調整是 我們希望朝著計劃型的部分因為它可能跨區那也不可能是新北 它可能跨到桃園或可能跨到其他的建設可以了解 所以請部長到時候再提出計劃來我們再共同來調整啦謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":3518.271,"end":3529.716,"text":"那對好那我還有其他時間那我想跟部長再討論另外一個部分也就是其實現在內政部一直在推的是社區自主防災那我覺得這個部分其實是很好因為讓這個我們社區的每個人事實上是社會的每個人都可以以社區為單位來動起來在事前的準備"},{"start":3539.861,"end":3550.709,"text":"是災害當中的疏散甚至是災害後的復原安置等等大家都可以盡一己之力非常好可是我們看到一個問題就是在現在台灣的狀況是災害越嚴重的地方反而是它的條件可能是最差的這個包括了地理環境也包括了它的人口結構你看從花蓮光復鄉的災害讓我們看得出來高齡人口佔了將近三成"},{"start":3563.598,"end":3585.737,"text":"台南市的風災 重災區的部分也是都相當的高比例的狀況那甚至呢 我回去看我們的新北市如果 下一頁如果是新北市呢有可能有發生土石流的地方就是這種災害淺市溪流的部分來講其實它的人口高齡人口佔比也非常的多所以我想要請教的反而是前一頁前一頁的這 前一頁"},{"start":3588.92,"end":3593.241,"text":"我想要建議並且詢問的是部長您對這種社區自主防災的部分高齡化的人口結構這個部分你有什麼樣的看法不然我們眼看著現在的狀況可能變成災害發生以後是60歲的扶80歲去避難70歲的還要扶90歲的去避難那這樣的狀況你要這些人高齡人口去復建復原災區可能是很難的部長你有什麼看法是非常謝謝蘇委員的關注"},{"start":3615.768,"end":3634.87,"text":"這個韌性社區它的建構當然是希望除了公務機關以外其他的民間團體或者是其他能夠協助防災的這些人口可以補助進去所以我們在推有關於社區防災中心防災協作中心也就是未來的鄉鎮區公所要補助的是我們的替代役的人力"},{"start":3635.59,"end":3659.779,"text":"替代役的人力來協助尤其可能偶爾比較關心像疏散撤離或收容安置這個部分那同時我們也希望大家培養有防災的這樣的一個這個智慧以外呢他能夠用預防性的方式來處理譬如說您剛所提到的除了中壯人口以外的比較弱勢人口他需要做預防性的疏散撤離那這個疏散撤離所需要的除了公務機關介入民間團體我們也希望來推動所以為什麼我們防災市的這個推動現在是速度很快"},{"start":3664.201,"end":3679.615,"text":"在新北的增長速度是最快的部長 因為時間有限主席都站起來了我把我的結論講完啦結論的部分是剛剛我認為是這樣您剛剛也講到說我們要補助然後是找替代液等等這樣的狀況我認為除了替代液之外其實我們有更多的"},{"start":3680.936,"end":3688.858,"text":"這個外面或者是本地的青壯人口可以運用甚至是民間企業與人民團體都可以加入這個自主防災因為像這次的產值超人其實就是大量的民力進來所以我建議可以討論如何吸引這些青壯人口民間企業 人民團體加入自主防災社區的誘因因為目前我們在其他的會議上面也看到了這樣的部分還比較少一點那我建議這個可以研議"},{"start":3708.863,"end":3717.83,"text":"那我們就另外再討論因為主席站很久了可以繼續說嗎其實我們本來就有在往這方面但是重要的是他能夠接受指揮因為你沒有接受指揮最危險的地方或是不危險的地方或者是剛好會妨礙救災"},{"start":3728.337,"end":3743.028,"text":"所以這個部分需要研究為什麼防災協作中心除了區公所這樣子一個一貫性的指揮系統然後把防災室還有把訓練還有把那個替代役放到裡面去就是要補足這方面不足的人然後再來志工團體未來可能會採取登記制"},{"start":3745.53,"end":3754.061,"text":"就是如果你登記過來你是可以處理水電的或是你可以處理救護的我要先幫你分類而不是大家來的時候大家就全部一起換走非常好 部長你這次的講法就已經比前兩次我們在要求這個方向的時候已經具體很多光是一個登記制講出來三個字"},{"start":3760.97,"end":3789.019,"text":"但是其實支撐起來非常的困難但你願意在備詢台上把這句話講出口我就肯定內政部的決心肯定內政部的決心但有太多的細節那我們期待未來可以看到更多更多從方向大綱架構一直到細節的部分它必須要有組織化而且需要有專業化這樣子的訓練那既然有這樣的機制那我現在就再多提再前進一步那如何增加吸引更多的名利進來我也認為可以討論誘因這就是我今天質詢的主題我們會以鼓勵為主"},{"start":3790.8,"end":3796.981,"text":"好 謝謝部長謝謝 我們感謝蘇僑會委員質詢我們請張鴻祿委員來 我請部長請保證好慢慢來然後警政署長也一起"},{"start":3820.961,"end":3836.06,"text":"來 警政署長張委員早部長這個一萬塊快要發了是那我記得我上次也有質詢說財政部有編列預算還有什麼這個防詐那"},{"start":3839.964,"end":3863.177,"text":"現在內政部我們警政署在電視上在什麼都有實際的案例然後讓大家知道什麼是詐騙這個那時候我就這樣一直要求然後你們也已經做了那這個一萬塊我到現在目前為止還沒有看到有任何當然沒有發生沒有實例但是呢已經有詐騙的實例了"},{"start":3864.999,"end":3894.081,"text":"我的意思就是說我們在電視上的宣導什麼的這些都沒有預作準備嗎我一個月前我就有質詢了那你們也說你們會回去處理我不知道處理了怎麼樣如果不知道可以請署長處理我告訴你報告委員現在在立法院討論的時候其實已經有很多詐騙的網站這個我們刑事局跟所有地方上面的很大力在打壓這個部分"},{"start":3894.554,"end":3913.669,"text":"那最重要是那個委員有多次有提及就是說我們需要顧慮到比較偏鄉或是比較沒有辦法從網路或是電視上面知道說有這個普發現金一萬塊的詐騙的部分所以現在的內政部跟財政部已經邀集了全台灣各地的小公寓包括AM在內的這個廣播電台"},{"start":3915.41,"end":3927.075,"text":"要開始做這方面的一個廣播宣導那包括國台客語的部分都會加進去那因為今天才開始要做正式的登錄所以我們跟各小公寓的電台"},{"start":3927.489,"end":3951.746,"text":"也是今天才會開始那財政部也是在進行當中所以是今天才會開始因為因為你需要招標不可能說做就做有做了啦我重點只要這個有有有沒問題未來您還是會聽得到如果你有AM的那個我會特別去聽啊還有客語客語我也聽得懂好那那再來啦"},{"start":3955.621,"end":3964.346,"text":"我們現在2026年新的租屋補助的新制就是一定要合法住宅這點我也完全認同"},{"start":3965.476,"end":3989.347,"text":"我也覺得你違章啊你什麼然後去再賺錢我覺得還是必須要有一些處理的部分不過如果在偏鄉啊很多的房子啊他可能啊連登記都沒有登記啊如果在偏鄉他有需要我說的這個是有可能是很多弱勢喔老人喔"},{"start":3990.945,"end":3999.22,"text":"他可能他就一個人住在那邊他可能住親戚的房子或什麼的那個很多的偏鄉他房子連登記都沒有登記這個怎麼辦"},{"start":4002.754,"end":4023.489,"text":"署長署長要回答之前我再跟張委員補充一下我們剛剛在找的這個小公寓電台的部分有加在一起這個有非六都的小公寓電台有26家然後全台灣小公寓電台大概有兩家"},{"start":4024.266,"end":4047.539,"text":"已經都開始在處理了可能今天就會上線有就好了我先請署長回應好 署長你看我對弱勢對重了我是特別的關心像這種情況怎麼處理根本報告啦其實因為的確就是說我們一開始一定要先重視建築物安全因為過去這兩年雖然我們有補助但是有一些意外還是有頻傳所以"},{"start":4047.981,"end":4072.381,"text":"我們決定不再補助但是你剛剛所提到如果早期是屬於未登記的住宅其實未登記住宅是不算違建就早期的未登記就在建築法之前它有一些叫未登記住宅那個是一個但是如果它是沒有就是說它是完全不是屬於未登記住宅是純屬違章的話我想我們會跟地方政府協商就有一些從策略中的這個比較弱勢戶優先來排除啦因為這樣的話會比較妥適"},{"start":4076.515,"end":4095.153,"text":"我覺得我們這個辦法什麼的你在六都在都會區裡面我都完全支持但這一點我覺得你們要找出要很明確哪一些範圍內可以就是策略的弱勢戶"},{"start":4096.687,"end":4118.679,"text":"那個部分就先免除這樣的一個限制你弱勢戶還是要優先照顧弱勢戶要照顧之外弱勢戶很可能在偏鄉就是遇到我這個問題就是我剛剛講弱勢戶的部分先排除這個問題你們要去把它處理好這一塊要很明確也不要變成漏洞了解要把它局限在偏鄉了解不然"},{"start":4121.8,"end":4130.907,"text":"你如果又開了一個洞因為您指的大概就非六都的部分非六都大概人口數比較少的召委的嘉義市裡面有需要嗎"},{"start":4132.741,"end":4158.721,"text":"比較少吧我認為你一次也不能開太大的你就是要偏鄉有這種需要的我們再來你不要一次處理你也沒辦法所以跟我們報告就是我會從弱勢先啦弱勢先優先來做這樣的一個排序我們要處理這一塊啦那再來一點時間我就是說"},{"start":4159.659,"end":4182.678,"text":"那個部長我看到你們這個裡面這個業務報告裡面有就是既有的宗教的建物跟用地的合法化那我們有補助很多縣市去處理這個事情不知道處理的情況如何宗教建物的合法化那我是既有我先請"},{"start":4186.589,"end":4191.792,"text":"謝謝委員關心跟委員報告事實上宗教建築合法其實我們有一個暫行條例你就不要再跟我講那些了那我們現在就現行我們會積極來輔導就是你都市計畫裡面我們會用頭版前導方式然後先把土地解決以後然後飛度部分我們就用特定就變根變木把它讓土地變成特木然後土地解決以後再做建築的一個合法"},{"start":4214.977,"end":4242.644,"text":"我剛問你你這個是方法你們有補助有什麼目前又沒有什麼進度各位 包括我們現在就是補助一千這個三年補助一千萬給這個地方政府來做一個業務的宣導是我說真的你們這個一千萬我就真的覺得既有的寺廟或什麼都在那裡還要宣導什麼打一通電話去跟他講就有這個了對不對是"},{"start":4244.028,"end":4271.663,"text":"你跟我講一些我現在問你的成績是如何你就回答我有沒有成績就好是跟我們報告那現在這幾年以後現在我們有輔導大概911家人完成了這個2300幣的土地已經說轉為一個登記了我跟你講你跟我問你的問題跟你回答我的問題是不一樣的東西我跟你講你是回答我不一樣的東西"},{"start":4276.508,"end":4301.513,"text":"感謝委員因為其實大概不管在獨基區跟非都大概都會透過通盤檢討或是有一些變更的作業要點但是其實委員也知道其實過程當中不是那麼順利啦因為有的寺廟他可能早就已經建超過了那所以這個部分我想我們還是會持續在相關的變更裡面去做這樣的一個處理我只有一個啦"},{"start":4302.967,"end":4322.274,"text":"很多的廟 很多的寺廟其實是比政府還早就成立了很多的寺廟很多它是因為不懂法令才會這樣這個寺廟它只要不要被私人去拿去挪不是書廟 不是什麼那種的我都覺得政府應該要"},{"start":4324.075,"end":4345.785,"text":"盡量讓他合法化這樣才能夠長長久久啦新名也比你大對不對所以我覺得要朝這個方向你知道我在問什麼啦我知道他回答的不對啦所以沒關係這個我只是要讓你們知道這個要去重視要去處理就好了好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":4361.093,"end":4362.574,"text":"我們請王美惠召委主席我們先補充跟經濟事室室長召委好補充 室長您好在今天可能大家都知道今天的發放會定期10萬戶室長"},{"start":4388.154,"end":4395.641,"text":"你今天十一月初五八點開始可以登記嗎是 我跟你請教的是 十一月初五要去登記的人什麼人早最快"},{"start":4404.557,"end":4413.841,"text":"可以使用網絡可以做這些網路的這些要自己早一點領到錢的去登記的會比較快但是財政部的專網啦財政部的專網裡面你如果要早一點就可以去登記"},{"start":4425.459,"end":4430.882,"text":"這個電機是在一月初五八點開始電機的是是是嘛所以我要跟趙伯伯說財政部的這個普華縣的專網大家要記住就是10000.zof1.tw這個專網而已其他的那個就是其他的那個這些符號啦跟這個不同那個一定都是假的網站"},{"start":4450.942,"end":4468.763,"text":"蘇丁 你這裡本市是怎樣給你探討的什麼人招最快 詐騙集團招最快 招提名的你安委本這個事項可以給大家念的時候 到日期 到月期的時候"},{"start":4469.884,"end":4471.945,"text":"就已經去用便宜了騙五十一萬啦 署長在這個過程 剛才我們聽到張鴻祿委員跟部長說 跟你們請教說這個要放年要定期的時候我們要怎麼去輔助學費的小孩子要怎麼去定期不可以去用便宜所以我會用心用口"},{"start":4498.812,"end":4499.673,"text":"希望你都選擇說實在詐騙集團多噁心他想教你這件他家庭話說得有口有口"},{"start":4512.688,"end":4517.751,"text":"跟北省跟國會跟中央政府還沒定期要如何委託他的親戚去納所以在他的親戚去納的時候他說我沒有叫我們親戚去納他說沒關係 沒關係如果沒有的話 你再點下去這樣還可以多支你一萬塊給你們親戚納"},{"start":4538.701,"end":4540.242,"text":"不然他又跟他說 欸 我又沒看到 不然你再點一個 你要再點一個3點 4點 都要點到51萬啦 市長在這裡你要如何選得好 選台灣人的人 知道詐騙集團 找第一勒"},{"start":4560.947,"end":4568.412,"text":"這次發一萬塊在日本的專網我剛才有說過就是一萬電子費電子台幣這個而已其他的網站都假的現在發生的這一些的普外元塊的這個詐騙就是是要你的那個釣魚要你的資料這釣魚就是要你的信用卡叫你銀行OTP的這個認證號碼"},{"start":4588.973,"end":4594.057,"text":"這些都不能去填寫 第二就是剛才趙薇說的那些假簽證假簽證就是要你的男人婆婆的帳號要你的密碼 這些要嫁你的東西所以政府絕對不會用電話 簡訊 電郵要求你去轉帳 或是你去捏錢這樣做 那你如果覺得"},{"start":4616.734,"end":4622.337,"text":"這個有怪怪的時候請你大家靠165的反詐騙專線我們會幫你做處理 給你解釋清楚所以我們剛才部長也報告過就是說我們不管是偏鄉的 我們有錄台語 國語 客語 都在這個小公立的電台都會再去做廣播就是針對這些比較偏鄉的地方"},{"start":4641.584,"end":4649.209,"text":"做這樣的宣導那其他的這些宣導的這個方式我們都是在各個一個分廊分眾在做一個宣導署長你講得熱熱騰騰最重要的你都沒有人會想說跟你們這10萬塊大家都領悟跟你們如果怕說去不便宜在1月2日拿到你的資料去郵局"},{"start":4671.102,"end":4675.946,"text":"派對 還可以拿一張牌因為不夠錢 錢慢慢沒實際 還是你說自己又要怎樣這都不妥 最方便的就是叫這四大人 這大郵輪員不要聽別人胡說如果要現金 就是拿你的新聞證去郵局拿"},{"start":4699.259,"end":4707.043,"text":"齁 署長 要多宣導啦 不然要請四人在一位車後開始停機 九位車就不便宜了 這樣有夠嚴的來 署長請坐 署長在這裏面 您這個椅子裏面齁 有那個老宅財神處理用的 老宅延壽"},{"start":4726.55,"end":4728.252,"text":"這裏面有50億的醫生 但是事實上跟部長 本事要跟你討論的就是你有第一波第二波的 但是他跟醫師來看 跟醫師"},{"start":4744.591,"end":4749.154,"text":"那部署中間有八萬六千多戶如果它散開,那部署有七十七百是所有間隔和義氣的地方最多為什麼你們不放下去?會被家人被淋在一個地方,還要我們來請"},{"start":4768.286,"end":4770.75,"text":"謝謝委員的關心 我們有注意到這個現象你有注意所以我們會同步進行因為去辦選舉不需要一站一站我們可以包括國土署的地方分署分別去"},{"start":4783.447,"end":4789.353,"text":"但是我們現在最重要的要加一個處罪就是說老宅嚴肅 你要申請 要怎麼申請平衡料 耐震補強你申請可以申請多少錢所以我們一定在辦這個申請會上邀請民意代表 傳理長跟社區裡面的人來共同參與是怎樣 我會幫你提起這個"},{"start":4806.414,"end":4813.378,"text":"因為嘉義市政府對這種老屋老宅他們很內行的所以我看到說看不看得到嘉義市那裡嘉義市的老宅這麼多所以也感謝保庭說你有看見到全台灣都會去啦我們會同步進行但是我們要先準備好我們的改造的全台灣都可以"},{"start":4831.71,"end":4841.956,"text":"雨露金針嘛可以讓大家都有感覺說我們中央政府的做事在這裡我們還要來討論一個青年婚姻財及妻子的這個問題 署長"},{"start":4850.418,"end":4853.519,"text":"我們自己去看有沒有幾位因為我們是所有的社宅運氣好的都會流20%所以我們未來我們譬如說我們的保安安居如果好都會有流還流20%是來 署長我來請教"},{"start":4868.783,"end":4876.009,"text":"你有老傢伙,你能夠考慮到,我們家庭在漸漸老化的時候,在裡面你覺得可以用一個活動中心,讓這些老人可以聚集在那裡嗎?跟委員報告啦,我們每一區在起的時候,都會看地方政府先參詳"},{"start":4890.287,"end":4896.49,"text":"不管柯林是屬於日照現在我要跟你說的就是說前一陣子我們柯林想不到的但是現在我們的訴求像你現在前一陣子去這家企的社宅不一定去三位嘛跟你同時想不到這個問題的時候但是我跟你們說我們在納入的時候我了解喔你了解啦所以我會跟委員報告就是說我今天一個企業的時候都會先跟店長討論要不要卸貨"},{"start":4920.752,"end":4932.357,"text":"但是要向議員報告說 因為你要蓋衛生中心那個經濟是不一樣的我知道經濟不一樣 但是現在在蓋的時候衛生中心我的意思你們去看看大家要做的經濟當然也不一樣年輕人有年輕人的經濟 老人安全的經濟不一樣補充你要補充什麼"},{"start":4949.483,"end":4955.508,"text":"沒有 我想我們市長他站在基礎的風雲啦 我想很簡單就是說 既然是社會主體社會主體裡面去 入去裡面大的人 他們要活動跟附近的傳例 應該要有很好的活動 這些活動 我們會尊重這裡最好的共識的結果這個最重要啦 市長不要去應用就安全就好 也稍微拚一個地方的市區 附近的市區最要緊啦 以上"},{"start":4983.187,"end":5007.163,"text":"我們請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席有請部長還有移民署署長請部長請移民署署長委員好"},{"start":5009.363,"end":5037.503,"text":"部長好 署長好想要請教一下我們在處理114年度移民署稅出預算時就已經點出現行司法同意制度有許多缺失迫切需要改善的問題但是在115年度的預算書裡面針對移民署就同意人員政策"},{"start":5038.615,"end":5063.53,"text":"提出的進進措施並將成果等的資訊定期公布於官方網站這項內容的辦理情形報告還是一片空白請問請問你們的進進措施還有成果在哪裡有在做嗎報告委員 委員好"},{"start":5066.172,"end":5095.781,"text":"那其實在我們移民署的通譯制度裡面我們這個通譯人才資料庫是在民國98年建制但是在109年的時候我們有做一個精進的方案那這個精進方案裡面其實陣列了兩個比較重要的一個措施第一個就是線上需求端的一個邀約還有就是這個滿意度的一個回饋那目前整個資料庫的建制裡面現在我們通譯人才資料庫裡面的人才"},{"start":5096.448,"end":5122.469,"text":"名單大概有接近1400人那其中以越南語跟印尼語的同意資料人才是是最多的那這個這個包含了22種語言那22種語言裡面就是越南跟印尼語是最多的那大概目前在線上端去申請使用權限的包括機關法人跟個人大概有1600個左右那"},{"start":5126.4,"end":5148.971,"text":"在這1600個左右目前為止我們所掌握到的這個查詢的次數大概7800人次左右啦所以其實在整個的這個部分我們會去做一個處理那另外有關通譯人才的部分我們又有去區分大概有三類第一個就是司法通譯因為司法通譯他需要的語言包括法令的這個"},{"start":5151.126,"end":5153.527,"text":"這個名詞他必須得是謝謝署長我問我是讓你讓你說啦但是我問東你回西啦我問這個問我們看到的是這個這個你完全沒有回你回的"},{"start":5166.832,"end":5192.298,"text":"你回的是我要問的因為這個我要跟你們所知所以你們回的就是剛才你講的所以我跟你講說你講的東西移民署在民國98年開始建設一個就是通譯人才資料庫是你說的並且在109年7月也做了一次功能升級的改版"},{"start":5193.678,"end":5205.842,"text":"不查不知道查了嚇一跳這樣的網站使用相框像你說的自改版以來5年的時間累積有登入同意人員是1300"},{"start":5209.03,"end":5228.038,"text":"有38人需求單位有375個有1591人使用全線在線上要發出邀約同意的服務446件其中成案的只有56件"},{"start":5229.85,"end":5235.893,"text":"署長你每年都補助在各個學校限制政府民間團體開辦的統一人才"},{"start":5241.363,"end":5253.529,"text":"一個縣一般最少有30個人我們22個縣市不要說學校民間團體22個縣市一年也是有660個人5年也要超過3000多人但是你們這邊不到150個人只成功媒合了56件有可能嗎實際上的需求這麼少"},{"start":5270.197,"end":5298.972,"text":"我們講的是這個這個網站的功能不好啦是想要了解是這個部分完全不可能只有說1591人報告委員我這裡要跟委員做一個報告其實我們那個同意人才資料庫其實就是一個平台那平台其實譬如說我是警察機關我找了一個同意人才我邀約他之後"},{"start":5299.488,"end":5310.336,"text":"然後他們自己會加LINE他就不會再透過這個平台再去做線上的邀約所以他們就直接打電話了啦所以他那個次數相對會比較少如果這個平台沒有用的話你們還要從開始監製就花了150萬109年又花改版也花了450萬保固期滿後從112年到現在每年"},{"start":5327.954,"end":5350.665,"text":"維護費要花了43萬陸陸續續花了就是700多萬你說這不好啊 不好你還要去維護所以請教一下你對這樣的成果滿意嗎你覺得說這樣的支出移民署沒有說去查這個同意的人員的需求這個資料庫的心得我們要的是"},{"start":5351.845,"end":5372.843,"text":"這個資料庫你要用的當初的目標還有效果是什麼但是你講的就是要別人去用這樣子你還要維護這個資料庫要幹嘛報告委員其實當初建立這個資料庫它一定有它基本的一個需求的一個花費然後這個我就說這個是一個媒合平台"},{"start":5373.41,"end":5393.008,"text":"但是媒合平台之後譬如說我這個承辦人我耳後我都已經加在了我就固定找這個人嘛因為配合的很好所以這個媒合的次數會逐漸的減少但是你不能把它廢掉因為這個平台在這裡會有新進人員又再進來他還是會透過這個平台再去找到相關更多的一個同意人員"},{"start":5393.749,"end":5400.814,"text":"署長我覺得你講這個真的是不是啦你說有多少人去培訓如果你每年培訓那麼多人你要把這些資料把它納入資料庫讓更多人在這邊找你不能說別人找去了我這個資料庫還是要但是維護但是沒有人找沒關係"},{"start":5416.744,"end":5423.11,"text":"再去做翻譯也要死啊對不對 你說這個資料庫這樣子就是有需要有需要你要把所有的資料要提供進來當大家有需要的時候也可以找你不能說我私下找了我就用這個這個資料庫好像的功能還是要但是呢 功能不好 也功能不是要維護因為資料庫裡面才有1400人啊"},{"start":5441.707,"end":5442.608,"text":"資料庫裡面有1100人5年1100人 人家要死了 要走啊不是這樣子 那不是次數那是那個登錄的 通譯的人才資料庫裡面有1400人 22種語言"},{"start":5456.499,"end":5459.94,"text":"對啊但是只有這樣子你覺得很好嗎效果很好嗎人太少了因為不可能五年只有這樣啦所以我們是在還有我們看到的就是這個部分我們希望署長真的要把這個資料庫真的是資料庫不是生鏽的資料庫啦我們要的真的是要去做好所以剛才我跟你講的要的是兩件事情"},{"start":5485.811,"end":5511.458,"text":"移民署在12年底有制定一份統一制度精進事辦計畫這一點提出問題就是很多的問題洋洋灑灑12項的內容寫得很漂亮但實際上成效在哪裡我們一直沒有看到不管是解凍預算的統一人員政策精進成果報告"},{"start":5512.618,"end":5528.908,"text":"無消無息或者在城校趴到就是趴到地板上的同意人員資料庫已經新鮮了就連今天內政部提交到我們內政委員會來的業務報告"},{"start":5531.65,"end":5561.09,"text":"整本沒有看到同意的問題真的非常令人懷疑政府對於改進同意制度的能力和決心所以我們要呼籲我們內政部實落還有落實實際落實真真的是這個資料庫還有說我們這樣子的方案保障在台新住民的權益的承諾"},{"start":5562.651,"end":5580.201,"text":"我們要我一定會強力的監督這一塊還有就是統一制度的精進事辦計畫的辦理情形把關該計畫動資的預算支出所以署長你剛才講有需要"},{"start":5581.181,"end":5605.136,"text":"也有要去改進所以我希望你在一個月內一個月內提出統一的制度改善精進報告兩個就是因為我看到剛才的是空白你沒有提出謝謝委員讓我補充一下是好不好謝謝委員那其實在整個統一制度裡面我們在112年有一個統一制度的一個精進方案"},{"start":5605.578,"end":5623.942,"text":"他是每兩年期會做一次的檢討那在今年的12月31號會把事辦的這兩年的一些狀況我們在會提出來做精進在所謂同意人才的培訓認證管理跟任用這個部分我們會來做持續的改善那委員剛剛所提提出來的部分我們將相關那個檢討精進的這個報告我們也會在"},{"start":5629.197,"end":5632.659,"text":"委員要求的期限之內我們會再把資料送給委員還有這個資料庫要有用的資料庫好不好我們要把所有全部你們補助或者各縣市有辦理的培訓通譯人員要把它全部納入進來讓大家才會找得到人來去翻譯"},{"start":5649.771,"end":5661.603,"text":"事實上有很多地方是找不到翻譯你們這個地方又沒有去改善又沒有去改進就停留在那一邊所以這個資料庫大家都覺得是生鏽大家也沒辦法因為你拍去翻譯也沒有拍"},{"start":5666.467,"end":5675.113,"text":"大家要找到裡面的人數有限所以大家就沒辦法去配合所以變成這個資料庫變成是生鏽的資料庫所以大家才不會去用才會人數那麼差所以這個兩個部分我希望署長要去做好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝麥正委員質詢我們請紐西庭委員質詢"},{"start":5699.418,"end":5702.061,"text":"謝謝主席 劉部長有請部長早安 我們今天是內政部的業務報告我繼續跟你討論這個住宅政策這個我們中華民國的住宅政策的核心到底是什麼"},{"start":5719.176,"end":5739.17,"text":"內政部長有想法嗎根據住宅法上面的規範當然它可能是我們在中華民國的社會福利體系的一環但是它要透過住宅的形式來呈現出來而不是一般的這個補助事項所以住宅法非常強調要照顧弱勢所以其實是圍繞著社會福利為核心的這樣一個政策對不對那但是這樣子"},{"start":5740.56,"end":5757.109,"text":"搞住宅政策也不是一天兩天啦各個政黨執政等等都有這樣的一個邏輯去執政但是結論是什麼呢結論是現在年輕人不分不生嘛不分不生最大的壓力還是因為房貸不見得買得起房子根據內政部我不一定完全同意啦根據內政部因為少子化全部把這個不動產資訊平台上面你先聽我講完嘛"},{"start":5760.991,"end":5769.813,"text":"最新的住宅租金指數9月再創新高109.27比去年同期上漲2.14%連續7個月達108以上租屋負擔率顯然過高那內政部不動產資訊平台114年Q1全國平均房貸負擔率為44.53%又比去年同季相比上升0.52%以直轄市來講是50.88%按照World Bank世界銀行的標準超過30%其實就已經是負擔不合理"},{"start":5788.717,"end":5810.627,"text":"那超過50%就住在六都的人來講負擔當然更加沉重也因此啊這個剛剛部長也講圍繞社會福利政策為核心的這樣一個住宅政策具體來講透過住宅來呈現就是所謂的社會住宅那其實非常多委員其實跨會期跨黨派都已經長期的關心大家都在看賴清德總統的社會住宅的新辦計畫請問到底核定了沒部長"},{"start":5814.224,"end":5823.802,"text":"還沒社會住宅興辦計畫啦你是說送到行政院的部分行政院的部分大概合訂兩項其中一項還希望我們內政部再多做檢討"},{"start":5824.898,"end":5845.027,"text":"什麼時候會全部核定能不能給出具體的時間表我們現在在依照這個總統跟院長的指示在檢討當中因為社會住宅的興建除了土地或者是資金取得以外現在要加入一個氣候變遷的因素所以這個因素加進來以後可能對於社會住宅的興建會有一些必要的一個檢討的方向"},{"start":5845.865,"end":5872.864,"text":"好 我們就繼續等待社會住宅的計畫核定來 我今天要跟部長做一下政策討論啦就是說跨國比較 我剛剛第一個問題問你我們台灣的住宅政策的核心是什麼你講的是社會福利 確實這個發租補貼啊 對不對 設宅等等然後有嚴格的照顧弱勢為優先的這個取向這大家都很清楚嘛但其他國家的概念 譬如我們新加坡為例新加坡的住宅政策其實蠻清楚的主導的單位叫做建物發展局HDP"},{"start":5873.786,"end":5887.63,"text":"那他的整個住宅政策的核心其實就是主屋政策也就是一個相對來講可負擔住宅可以在市場上有一定條件上面的一個特殊性市場的可以接受轉賣的這樣一個狀況那他的主屋政策有幾個條件比如說這個家庭優先這個有結婚的單身的話要35歲之後才能申請而且只能申請二手等等那另外有限制他只有所謂的這個地上權就是建屋的所有權"},{"start":5901.995,"end":5929.222,"text":"然後有五年的閉鎖期如果要出售也只能出售給符合主屋申請條件資格者嘛所以它其實是有一個非常完善的一個配套那麼使用期滿之後要歸還政府政府在依 可能都更啊 社區等等的需求來做更新補償或者是重建你可以看到它的政策邏輯是非常非常清晰的嘛我有一個單位 我有一個要完整的政策我其他包含都市計畫 身份認定等配套是圍繞著這樣一個政策來做處理"},{"start":5930.402,"end":5955.994,"text":"那你就可以看得出來人家有一定的成效那請問這個台灣有沒有打算這個在住宅政策上更進一步脫離社會福利的思維呢 部長好 感謝委員因為新加坡跟台灣不一樣在於他97%都是國有地嘛所以他才可以去發展用類似在台灣來講他就類似設定地障權的做法來做這樣的處理那當然也是因為他"},{"start":5958.942,"end":5976.39,"text":"從這個1965年左右就開始全力發展所以他到目前的數量其實是非常足夠來支應所以他已經進到第二輪所謂的都更的這個狀況所以他才可以用這樣子不斷的輪替去買賣那在台灣來講因為這個都才剛起步生產量權也才剛起步十多年"},{"start":5976.946,"end":5990.563,"text":"所以加上國有地也不是很多所以要達成這樣的輪替其實是有困難但是未來在社會住宅的興建上面其實或許可以用這樣的方式來做混合搭配這也是我們現在目前也在研議的方向之一"},{"start":5991.397,"end":6018.917,"text":"所以我們現在內政部的立場是我們在參酌國際的案例的時候我們要逐步來做政治的創新還是基本上因為認定國土民情完全不同所以我們基本上不予採納要繼續本來的邏輯所以剛剛所講的所以像類似這樣的一個生地安全跟社會住宅混合的方式現在也是我們目前有在研擬的方式包含的抱怨的計畫裡面包含這一項都有繼續在討論因為就本席的了解當初社會住宅的興辦計畫一直沒有辦法遲遲核定某一些層面當然是擔心財政的問題嘛"},{"start":6019.637,"end":6035.994,"text":"對不對所以換言之傳統以社會福利為導向這樣一個住宅政策的邏輯現在顯然這個陳峰不管是總統也好或者是行政院院長也好也許他有不同的意見所以這個計畫其實不能合定嘛對不對那我們要看到的是如果要嘛"},{"start":6036.687,"end":6059.432,"text":"要繼續做社會住宅這件事情你就大刀闊斧的趕快去做因為畢竟開出了支票幾年幾十萬戶等等那你如果有困難要調整有別的顧慮的話那你至少要讓我們的社會大眾看到住宅政策的調整方向這樣大家才能夠了解說這個政府持續的在關心居住政策而不是形成住宅政策的真空嘛則部長或者是署長有沒有什麼要補充的嗎我想大方向來講因為像這幾年的這一個房地產市場我們都知道"},{"start":6065.263,"end":6084.509,"text":"其實接下來空屋率會再一次創新高因為這幾年出來的房子非常多所以在某一種形式上我們站在減少這個碳排的一個角度來講我們應該鼓勵更多的房子試出來做這個出租宅所以這個包租代管的部分我們現在目前已經把它上調它的一個標準"},{"start":6085.413,"end":6103.715,"text":"上調他一個標準戶啦所以我們希望也從另外一個角度去擴充但是直接興辦社宅這件事情就像我剛跟委員所報告的我們會用其他創新的方法像類似跟這個生態安全的房子去做一個混合的一個方式那也做這個BOT概念的方式讓民間來"},{"start":6106.767,"end":6128.775,"text":"來興辦來經營那這些事情我們都已經有在朝你一些方向那當然政院的方向如果定調以後我們會及早對外來宣布做說明我剛剛問你也是大方向你談了很多執行的細節當然都很好你有你的專業但我要問的是大方向我今天之所以提這個是因為很多地方政府現在已經開始在思考除了社會住宅之外的其他解方嘛比如說桃園市政府台中市政府在研擬叫做所謂的青年可負擔住宅了解"},{"start":6129.417,"end":6149.046,"text":"那青年可負擔住宅請問中央現在有沒有人在做這樣的研究有沒有相關的想法跟政策方向應該這麼說啦因為今天最關鍵還是在於你的你能不能脫離土地法民法相關的一個限縮因為對於土地來講土地如果一旦是出售的你一旦要能夠收回"},{"start":6149.525,"end":6178.011,"text":"其實它相對上在民法在土地法上面有一些限制所以這一點會是我們在後續再考慮的重點今天不可能有時間討論到政策細節但我要問的是大方向也就是說現在地方政府拋出了這樣一個構想其實在網路上也好輿情的回應上來講也好其實很多年輕人對於這樣子的一個政策他心裡是有所期待的那當然嘛你現在談執行的問題就擔心說你法規的禁核啊等等啊中央地方不同調大家其實在觀察而且在擔心的是這樣子一個事情"},{"start":6178.411,"end":6199.987,"text":"那我今天的質詢我主要就是要問你現在中央到底有沒有把這樣子的一個可負擔住宅的這樣一個政策納入你現在整個住宅政策的一個方向一個推進的計畫裡面有或沒有類似森林地安全住宅這個就是屬於可負擔的項目之一如果有那有沒有具體的期程跟地方政府對話的機制我是認為這個應該提早處理一下其實像桃園它已經放在"},{"start":6201.181,"end":6224.14,"text":"那個都市計畫桃園市的信息者裡面那已經有跟我們在進行相關的溝通已經有在討論嘛 甚至有討論自治條例或什麼的對 像彰化也有在跟我們討論這個事情所以中央基本上不會反對地方政府很努力的來做創新跟往這個方向的思考不會 我們都會大家在一個可行的方式底下來支持地方政府做這樣的一些創新那中央"},{"start":6225.573,"end":6245.985,"text":"針對法規相關等等的有沒有提供一些相關的意見因為現在大家最擔心的是如果地方先走有一套完整的東西那中央萬一不同調呢對不對萬一不愉快呢對不對大家總會有這樣子的一個顧慮嘛會不會有這樣的問題各位委員報告其實過去像這個南投彰化雖然都有不一樣的做法但是我們到最後還是會尊重他們的一個方式啦其實那個"},{"start":6246.607,"end":6275.713,"text":"只是在建屋未來的認定上是有所不同的這個我希望那既然你講說其實政府是有這樣中央政府也有往這樣的方向來做思考那是不是請這個內政部這邊針對青年可負擔住宅中期住宅等等的相關你們目前做了哪些研究目前規劃的一些方向有沒有一些預計的一個期程提供一份完整的資料來做對接嘛然後避免說也許地方跟中央默契不一樣好事又變壞事我是擔心這個事如果大家方向其實是一致可以來溝通一起來促成這件事情那"},{"start":6276.472,"end":6292.28,"text":"這個政策他才能夠達成一定的效果嘛所以我再次提醒人家新加坡是有一套完整的政策核心邏輯那現在既然涉宅的部分你可能要有修正你當然還是會繼續蓋我不會否認這個事情但如果要有所修正我們也要看到另外一個核心政策的形成跟相關配套的安排可以嗎好謝謝署長謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝紐西田委員質詢我們加徐毅政委員"},{"start":6311.049,"end":6318.955,"text":"謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有警政署張署長請保證請警政署張署長委員好部長好 署長好"},{"start":6324.522,"end":6342.41,"text":"部長就是我其實之前有詢問過有關台北車站我們之前有發生一個這個震驚社會的一個性侵案那蘇莉呢也在這個有回了一面書面報告給本席就針對這個本案鐵路警察局有在10月15號有召開一個聯防的會議"},{"start":6344.867,"end":6370.212,"text":"而且在16號有實地會勘過其中他提出了有四點的具體措施包括優化巡邏鄉縣 增加定點巡守建立安全聯方 淨化區站的環境因為這四大的措施要落實台北站區的安全跟維護所以本席也特別跑去台北車站看一下"},{"start":6370.967,"end":6395.573,"text":"所以我去看的時候呢發覺確實台北車站內部你可以看一下照片以前住的旁都是遊民而且髒亂不堪尿騷味酒味刺激那現在變乾淨了那你可以看到以前這個南門東門外面其實都是遊民也跟過去完全不一樣那請問部長這個台北車站的國門變得這麼乾淨警政署也迅速的解決問題"},{"start":6397.092,"end":6416.642,"text":"請問可以持續下去嗎那請問你會給警政署打幾分是非常謝謝委員的關切其實這件部分不是只有我們警政署還包括台北市警局或者台北市政府的社工機制那現在這個聯防機制如果他非常好的話我們當然能夠持續下去"},{"start":6417.639,"end":6446.385,"text":"不過接下來我要請您看一下您剛提到這還有台北市警察局我又再看了一下雖然這邊都沒有遊民可是你看下一張照片結果在北車南門旁的廊道遊民都在那裡這個北車南門旁你現在看得到的所以我們就發覺了一件事情就是在紅線之內的是屬於鐵路警察局在紅線之外的是台北市警察局那所以感覺上只是從鐵路警察局的範圍移到台北市警察局的範圍"},{"start":6447.762,"end":6459.007,"text":"那變成說就不是鐵路警察局的問題了是台北市政府的問題可是事實上不管是台北市警察局或者是鐵路警察局都是屬於警政署來管的所以這樣子的做法到底目的是什麼"},{"start":6460.184,"end":6478.161,"text":"跟委員報告這個台北車站這地方最主要是油米的問題那不管是不是在鐵路景的地徑線或是台北市的地徑線這個最主要就是油米會不會在那邊出現那原先可能在大丁現在又到廊道這個地方"},{"start":6478.681,"end":6503.027,"text":"那根本解決之道就是要怎麼要處理來安置這些遊民的這問題我想應該就是主管機關的設政單位包括台北市政府要來做一個處理那我們警察一定會來配合這個部分是不是等於內政部衛福部還有甚至交通部大家其實都要有一個這個對就是就是真正的去跨部會去處理台北車站的這個遊民的這個問題"},{"start":6505.388,"end":6518.871,"text":"不管是他在大廳裡面或在廊道這個都是移轉而已剛剛部長也講的這個你們跟台北市政府有一個統一這個指揮跟聯合的一個勤務制度有嗎有有有那我們可以看到我們這是警察的部分對那我當然知道是遊民的問題還有這個還屬於衛福部的相關問題還有社民政府單位但是呢你可以看到這是白天的狀況那請問一下部長您看一下這個報告事實上"},{"start":6536.569,"end":6545.537,"text":"到下午的時候 晚上的時候您有看過這個報告嗎 部長有這個報告 你有看過嗎那請問是誰到現場實地勘查的就是剛看到的這些狀況因為你們回我的書面資料是說有到現場實地勘查就是我們鐵路警察局跟台北市政府警察局接下來我給您看看晚上的狀況"},{"start":6564.591,"end":6583.82,"text":"就是晚上遊民又全部到這些地方去了那這個狀況的話就變成說我們好像就日夜兩樣情就白天的時候是一個狀況晚上的是一個狀況所以您剛提到的就是說我們有一些持續管理的一個機制然後所以晚上是不是有專責尋守的機制跟白天是不是同一批人"},{"start":6586.502,"end":6601.941,"text":"現在目前的這個狀況白天他就離開大廳晚上就到這個廊道的這地方來做休息那這些東西白天把東西收起來晚上又放放起來我想這個根本解決之道就是要怎麼把這些遊民做安置"},{"start":6603.403,"end":6629.385,"text":"我覺得原則上事實上我們想大家都不希望只是做表面功夫白天看得到這個乾淨的這個我們的台北車站到晚上的時候又變另一個狀況晚上也有這個我們國際觀光客吧也會有讓大家看到我們這個狀況像這個部分就是說這個有一些不是警察能夠支持的範圍裡面就是說這一個的台北車站"},{"start":6630.406,"end":6648.038,"text":"怎麼徹底能夠把這些遊民做一個一致就是不要在這個地方所以要各相關部會來做一個解決我想署長大概提到就是遊民的問題所以是不是請教部長是不是可以請部長正視這個事件是不是找衛福部交通部等相關的部會"},{"start":6648.798,"end":6654.161,"text":"跨部會的召開一個會議然後徹底解決問題不要再讓國民成為耻辱的象徵我想這個不是只有跨部會的部分跨部會在政策上面當然都是但是重點是台北市政府我也了解這個狀況那也有很多民代跟我們反映過不是只有台北車站包括萬華車站就是碰到這個問題我們是不是可以跟台北市政府也一起來協助解決這個問題"},{"start":6676.373,"end":6691.956,"text":"因為夜間關門以後會有這種狀況台北市的警察局也是屬於警政署管的所以大家一起來努力好嗎我們來努力另外再請教一下就是針對近日重大的一個社會案件就是信義豪宅的雙失命案我們可以看到"},{"start":6692.635,"end":6707.822,"text":"他是原目前看起來是應該是因為吸毒過量致死那我們現在可以看到目前雖然我們的毒品的這個查記案件數下降可是你可以看到12歲到17歲反而是增加的增加的大概22.6%的幅度"},{"start":6710.183,"end":6727.174,"text":"所以我們現在因為這個很多青少年因為網路的關係所以他們事實上不管是在網路上都很容易買到這些毒品所以而且現在114年度青少年的初次吸毒年齡已經降到14歲以下那新興毒品也層出不窮所以"},{"start":6729.655,"end":6745.995,"text":"請問部長現在政府有進行跨部會的防治的機制嗎那是不是有實際在運作有有這個部分我們有這個跨部會的這個毒品防治會議是那請問一下不管是我們這個內政部警政署教育部法務部在預防的資源投入上是不是足夠"},{"start":6746.892,"end":6762.73,"text":"那這個部分就是對於這個少年毒品的犯罪不管是在衛福教育大概都是會投入這個是不是足夠我剛請教您是不是足夠我想應該是足夠應該是中等計畫大概有那如果足夠照理說應該是我們的青少年的這個犯罪的這個"},{"start":6766.654,"end":6795.555,"text":"應該是會逐年的下降才對應該不是像這樣增加22.6%對 那這個部分就是跟委員報告我們把它做一個分析這個部分大概都是這一個新興毒品的一個狀況對 還有嘛 就是跨境嘛寄送毒 這個毒包裹是相關的嘛所以這個部分我們大概就是會從幾個面向就是當然在青少年代不管是在這個在教育面或者是家庭面那我們檢控的部分就是在那針對這個部分你們有沒有跨境追查的一個能量"},{"start":6796.255,"end":6808.365,"text":"還是說還是用傳統的這個查記模式這個沒有問題就是說不管是在邊境或者是在跨境我們都有駐外的這些的聯絡官都會跟相關的這個國家做一個情形的聯繫跨境追查的能量夠嗎還是主要都依賴傳統的查記模式呢"},{"start":6812.768,"end":6818.891,"text":"我們也不是傳統的查集模式現在就是多科技的偵查比如講像我們有網路的這個巡邏對於這個網路上這些販賣毒品的有網路的這些巡邏那有發現這些這個網站也跟這個我們那請問一下署長現在你們有跨境毒品數據的偵查中心嗎"},{"start":6833.803,"end":6856.915,"text":"跨境毒品的數據偵查中心目前有嗎我們刑事局有個毒防中心有一個毒品防治所以沒有所謂的跨境毒品的這個數據偵查中心嗎所以是不是可以請部長喔能夠整合像刑事局公安部署啊海巡署啊就是還有其他的部這個海委會那邊就是建立跨境毒品的一個查紀的偵查中心而且也要建立這個會議"},{"start":6858.175,"end":6862.62,"text":"情資的即時通報平台讓各部還有各個單位能夠迅速的了解各位報告這個平台都有建立起來包括關路署啦調查局或者是海巡署我們這個平台都有情資整個的這個平台但是執行上非常重要因為我們看到青少年吸毒的問題越來越嚴重所以我們必須真的要從源頭去源不能只是打小販"},{"start":6880.937,"end":6899.132,"text":"結果放大盤然後治標不治本讓我們的青少年我們最主要的問題要查原頭對 所以如果這個部分我們大家能夠各部門一起來共享當有共同的一個這個跨境的一個資源的一個平台大家即時通報事實上一定能夠減輕這樣的一個問題但是就要各部一起合作好的是 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝我們感謝徐議政委員我們家李博義委員質詢"},{"start":6916.226,"end":6941.892,"text":"部長先休息一下我先請警政署張署長還有刑事局周局長署長我想社會目前現在現階段非常關心的一件事情不分黨派都關心毒品的案件包含信義區的豪宅裡面出了兩條人命最近更可怕的還有"},{"start":6943.615,"end":6971.264,"text":"台灣的網紅在馬來西亞喪命在房間裡面其實我很擔心這種新型毒品或者是到底是什麼毒品種類可能會造成這些危險那也有可能就是藏在電子菸裡面的我上次才質詢署長我們有試劑但是到底是哪一些東西會致命然後最近可能有哪一些我先問一下這個局長好了"},{"start":6972.034,"end":6999.504,"text":"信義區這個毒品化驗出來了沒有包含上面的藥頭他這些已經帶回去好幾個了那目前哪一些毒品可能致命你要趕快跟社會大眾講當然我們是希望大家不要吸毒現在身上有毒品的人都不要碰可能會死掉包委員他就是過量的會致死就是事實上我們就是不要吸毒然後過量致死還是沒有我現在想要問的是信義區跟大馬這個事情"},{"start":7000.666,"end":7007.991,"text":"西西這案子裡面他這個是有查出有山西土餅的K他命阿非他命還有一粒棉但最重要的是大家的爭議是在"},{"start":7008.75,"end":7037.123,"text":"這個就是強爆藥丸的這個強爆藥丸成分不明嗎因為這個部分是因為是用在工業的這個用途很多就半導體的這個溶劑那它可能是什麼樣態是水嗎還是它就是一個水但這個部分就是我們目前來講是還是要請這個會請高監署我們再來做一個討論這個是不是要列入這個毒品管制因為現在在工業化工業用品的部分是很多常用的"},{"start":7037.443,"end":7066.304,"text":"我覺得我們刑事局要對馬來西亞這邊表示我們對這件案件的關心那這個部分我們一定是對這個嫌犯的部分我們會加他們在台灣的金流還有相關的這個部分也要給家屬相當的支持這個一定是的好 接下來我問第二個問題詐騙這個也是全民署長我請問你最近比特幣暴跌暴跌十幾%那是因為美國在10月14號"},{"start":7067.466,"end":7093.219,"text":"他把這個太子集團的比特幣全部查扣啊這個過去沒有嘛比特幣過去沒有被查扣嘛以為這是可以地下流通的一個一個虛擬貨幣嘛好我一直在等台灣什麼時候要對於這個太子集團出手好昨天已經剛好在今天質詢之前昨天已經把和平大院的11戶跟48個車位還有相關的這些超跑等"},{"start":7095.306,"end":7105.053,"text":"總計可能高達45億署長我要問你的是這代表一個決心但是我們這件事情的決心好像是跟著美國後面做未來有相關詐騙"},{"start":7107.476,"end":7126.337,"text":"這種案件的時候警政署有沒有辦法跟地檢署跟我們法務部來研擬可能可以直接查扣相關財產相關現金的這些方式沒有問題只要牽涉到炸機的這些的相關的工具或者髒證物我們一定都是會做查扣不管是"},{"start":7127.418,"end":7144.267,"text":"包括土地或者是他的動產包括車輛或者是或者是虛擬貨幣這些都會做操控虛擬貨幣我們也可以啊虛擬貨幣可以操控啊不管是比特幣或以太幣全部都可以操控好謝謝謝謝署長來有請部長還有國土署吳署長謝謝"},{"start":7154.199,"end":7177.964,"text":"部長辛苦這個防災之後那我還是要跟你爭取很多地方建設啦那這個新莊一路我一直在講那已經在今年度已經署長也來過次長也來過已經申請到4900萬但是目前招標不順利那我已經協調高雄市政府先把不是的這個黑板數先移除大家現在有看到就等趕快招標出去"},{"start":7178.697,"end":7194.913,"text":"因為這個過程裡面我們也協調包含地方還有居民還有大樓等等的這些水溝排水的部分我們都做了一個整合那希望今年度可以趕快來施工那第二個新台17線的部分在去年我協調"},{"start":7196.39,"end":7217.69,"text":"國防部先待拆待建高達28億的經費感謝部長今年跟署長今年也有來到現場對於南段第三期的工程高達2億的經費的挹注讓整條新台17線現在是全面動工我們還是在力拼明年度可以完全完成施工第三個"},{"start":7219.055,"end":7235.165,"text":"TSMC現在一共預計五場現在目前只有一場進駐可是翠華路已經塞車了翠華路在上下班時間雖然我們已經提早做了拓寬但是已經塞車了那我會想到未來台積電它一共是五場可能是"},{"start":7237.006,"end":7256.094,"text":"八千到一萬人的從業人口不含廠商八千到一萬從業人口要進出那目前已經有一點塞了我擔心喬科未來是兩萬人口兩萬個從業人員那所以我也一直在跟署長爭取喬科的這個三期可以擴大範圍"},{"start":7257.313,"end":7286.338,"text":"三條橫線可以開闢出來連接省道這個也希望署長跟可以跟部長研議在財務方面可行的狀況下盡量的擴大這個我請部長可不可以先做一個簡單的回應好謝謝我想李委員非常的努力那我們也樂觀其成就是未來的TSMC到左營南梓的地段來那我瞭解包括交通部在處理有關鋼橋段的這個高速公路的拓寬已經都在進行了"},{"start":7286.758,"end":7314.39,"text":"那是往北啊我重點要往南啊我知道那所以現在都市計畫上面的配合呢我們都全力配合高雄市政府那至於相關的這個進度呢後來請署長跟委員來回應一下好謝謝因為橋科還是屬於這個國土署的範圍是是我說明一下大概都市計畫在9月底的時候已經有審議通過了那包含高雄市政府非常在意的一支道路白浦園區的這個連外道路謝謝這個感謝國土署的支持後來評估一下的確似乎"},{"start":7315.411,"end":7337.55,"text":"現在以目前的狀況民眾也反對徵收啦所以後來我們就把他再納進來雖然我們財務會更吃緊不過還是協助他把他完成你要看好看好就不會吃緊啦這個部分我們其實後來財務有把他吃下來因為那一條路的開闢真的非常貴那個其實只是北段的三分之一啦那我現在在爭取的是北段全段加上中間第二條"},{"start":7338.391,"end":7355.904,"text":"橫向也要納入那希望國土部署可以積極的來評估這整個把它都納進來的話我們可以去把它完成好 謝謝那第四個有關老宅這一次我們在特別條例裡面對於這個老宅延壽的50億裡面"},{"start":7357.881,"end":7378.443,"text":"那針對這個四到六層樓的這個集合住宅那我想再爭取一下其實非常特殊的高雄左營的國貿社區其實就是非常需要老宅延壽的這一筆經費的挹注他只是對於外強外強現在脫落沒有辦法解決的問題希望"},{"start":7379.023,"end":7396.87,"text":"內政部藉由這一次這個特別條例也可以把這個左營國貿社區納入這一題我想部長會比署長還要熟請部長回應我們也遵照這個委員的建議就是瓷磚脫落的部分也這一次會列入老宅延壽的一個範圍內謝謝謝謝我們感謝李博義委員質詢我們請到高金素美委員質詢"},{"start":7409.875,"end":7410.316,"text":"漂亮的謝謝趙委會請部長請保證"},{"start":7419.878,"end":7448.733,"text":"部長 內政部是我們行政院的部會當中最大的一個部會你的業務呢但是我們的預算沒有最大你的業務牽涉得非常廣然後我必須要說的是部長您上任到現在其實我在這邊質詢你大概都是非常理性的而且我要提醒你就是當我們在這個質詢台上的質詢你在備詢的時候其實是非常嚴肅的一件事情而且也是人民需要的"},{"start":7449.273,"end":7466.559,"text":"所以不管是您的回答或者是您的部會的各個署長也好 市長也好的回應其實都是非常嚴肅的所以我現在要跟您提幾個問題在這邊您曾經答應過我的事情第一個我要說的是"},{"start":7468.056,"end":7490.638,"text":"在6月4號我在這裡質詢要求針對原鄉建築制度性的簡化當時部長您答應我說一個月之內你會完成兩件事情第一件事情競速訂定通案指導原則然後你要協助並且督導縣市政府依法訂定簡化管理辦法"},{"start":7491.358,"end":7519.21,"text":"並且要提供必要的技術協助第二個要整理現行的各地的建築簡化辦法的內容然後進行彙整對照然後作為地方參照與因應園鄉特殊情況依據部長五個月過去了通案指導原則在哪裡請簡短的說 謝謝現在是六個縣市政府送上來已經完成但是其他縣市政府還需要努力"},{"start":7520.631,"end":7536.592,"text":"這個是我們不夠努力的地方署長這好像是您來我辦公室的時候的回答跟今天部長的回答一模一樣有進度嗎我跟您報告因為我們後來有要求其他的縣市政府都要送上來但到目前為止他們到目前還都"},{"start":7537.421,"end":7553.474,"text":"沒有把自己的東西拿了出來因為表示他們還沒有去先是這麼不拿你就不監督了嗎就不要求了嗎我們都還有持續開會請他們一定要拿出來請您休息一下我最後會做幾個結論謝謝繼續我要問的是部長你還記得嗎你一上任的時候我們討論過原住民殯葬的問題所以你們從111年到114年度殯葬設施量能提升計畫"},{"start":7563.522,"end":7575.79,"text":"我必須要再講一次這是攸關原住民民生需求非常關鍵的建設你當時你也同意可是呢這項計畫在明年度就消失了部長請你能夠說明為什麼"},{"start":7579.166,"end":7601.153,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們這個計劃本來是三年度那現在我們要提報行政院第二期計劃確實是從116年開始那中間的115年的話會保留原來111到114沒有完成的部分繼續完成好 請問一下部長114年沒有辦法完成的預算如果不夠"},{"start":7602.293,"end":7625.264,"text":"那你在115年又沒有編列預算又要等到116年而園鄉地區的所謂的殯葬設施量就這樣子活生生要停一年嗎我想不是這個部分跟委員報告一下這個殯葬設施本來在執行的時候就會有困擾那這個困擾也謝謝部長我都清楚知道因為今天時間有限"},{"start":7626.164,"end":7646.232,"text":"所有的困擾在地方上我們都非常清楚你也清楚我也清楚但是不能夠列為就是你115年不編列預算或者您可以告訴我您該怎麼解決處理報告委員我先跟委員再補充一下因為我們在最後一年的時候呢它的規模是達到6.5億"},{"start":7647.893,"end":7666.544,"text":"那因為6.5億還沒有辦法在114年度完成的話我們希望115年就把它完成所以我們是跳到116年那如果委員對這個有困擾的話我想我們會把相關的部分整理出來再跟委員做一下充分的報告好我希望我要這樣的一份非常重要的資料然後再來警政署"},{"start":7667.364,"end":7689.837,"text":"同樣的5月14號我在去年審查預算的時候我凍結你們的圍牢津貼預算為什麼的凍結呢我希望能夠改善目前我們警察內外勤夜班津貼差異非常大我認為這是制度性歧視問題8月8號我去函給你們進度然後你們告訴我說沒有會議記錄沒有檢討方案"},{"start":7691.598,"end":7698.865,"text":"請問一下我們警察同仁所謂的夜班津貼差異很大的部分怎麼處理"},{"start":7699.807,"end":7727.542,"text":"好 各位報告那這個部分我們在這個內委會有排一個專案報告那現在我們對原先是駐地外執勤或者備勤有出勤原先這樣規範0到6點每個小時100塊那我們現在是朝勤務方式只要是在這個深淚裡面的值班或備勤都可以做這樣的一個人群因為他們也有一些危險性那目前我們是在"},{"start":7728.923,"end":7754.833,"text":"有關於這樣這樣的這個今天可能牽涉到地方要去做這些支付的問題所以我們在10月17號韓文給各相關的這個縣市政府來表示一件同不同意這樣的一個作為那目前這個資料在匯整當中那為什麼8月8號我去去韓詢問進度的時候你們不讓我這樣知道還是你是最近才解決這些問題最近解決最近好最近大概上個"},{"start":7755.713,"end":7767.103,"text":"在6月5月做中央報告在6月5月報告裡面做解決的好 因為我5月14號就質詢你了是是是 這個已經有具體的一個結果了好 繼續 請問一下消防署"},{"start":7768.939,"end":7787.713,"text":"部長您剛剛有對於災防做了報告你們今天的報告也宣揚防救災的資訊整合跟應變的效能有提升而且這個提升是有成績的像是數位平台 整合演練預警系統等等"},{"start":7788.433,"end":7811.554,"text":"我要請問的時候0403地震跟花蓮夜色湖當中的這個事件為什麼中央跟地方的橫向出了什麼問題然後長期以來地方消防人力長期不足署長你都知道然後我們地方的公務處缺乏治山的專業請問一下我在今天你們報告裡面沒有看到要怎麼解決怎麼處理"},{"start":7816.346,"end":7833.366,"text":"報告委員您所提到的就是0403的花蓮地震不僅僅0403事實上地震從921大地震到現在常年台灣就是地震帶第二土石流或者是當然淵石湖是第一次發生"},{"start":7833.886,"end":7849.826,"text":"但是我們有這麼多的災害在台灣發生過我們也不斷地從新聞看到不管是我們的地方的鄉親不管是我們的鄉親失去了生命這都是一而再 再而三發生的事情"},{"start":7850.427,"end":7868.654,"text":"然而這些事情就好像你今天報告說的數位平台整合演練這應該是應該經常要做的事情為什麼到這一次零四零三地震也好花蓮驗身胡藥同樣的災難同樣的畫面都不斷的在我們每一個人眼中出現呢"},{"start":7870.922,"end":7890.355,"text":"那您認為我們的防救災資訊整合還有應變的效能真的有提升嗎是 報告委員我想防救災的部分永遠有精進的空間那永遠有檢討的方向那事實上從0403到現在驗社府的部分包括我們從中央氣象署或者是甚至國科會"},{"start":7891.929,"end":7918.011,"text":"有關數位科技上面的整合其實是慢慢在整合當中但是我想委員也非常清楚地震發生的時間跟災難形成的時間是非常一瞬間我們沒有辦法在預防撤離裡面做得很好的部分當然會在災害的防救或者是最後的復原重建上面的盡量來努力那這個部分時間到了我必須要打斷您我剛剛說了地震也好災難也好"},{"start":7919.333,"end":7934.569,"text":"颱風也好這些都是不斷複製的你剛剛說要有精進我們要精進等到什麼時候你現在看到我們所有的災難所有的畫面所有的人民的感受我們政府並沒有精進啊"},{"start":7935.49,"end":7949.247,"text":"一样很惨的画面不断的显露在我们的媒体当中不断的灾难的同样的痛苦不断的显现在我们的人民的身上但是我们也很努力在改进尤其是第一线救灾的人员所以"},{"start":7951.89,"end":7977.72,"text":"所以部長我要跟您說的這個問題都是一樣的問題我們真的沒有時間再等了我希望在您的任內之下能夠把我們台灣不斷有同樣的災難把它趕快好好的當然雁聖湖是第一次但是我們不可能有第一次地震那麼多然後山上的雁聖湖尤其是在原鄉地區多得不得了"},{"start":7979.941,"end":8008.05,"text":"所以這些東西是要怎麼樣一一呈現做報告的地震該怎麼處理土石流該怎麼處理堰塞湖該怎麼處理颱風該怎麼處理台灣就這麼一丁點大的地方難道我們還有不同的應變的問題嗎部長時間有限我現在要要求以下三件事情我希望部長您在一週之內提供完整的書面給我第一個我要請內政部跟國土署提出"},{"start":8008.75,"end":8026.437,"text":"原鄉建築簡化通案性指導原則還有各縣市建築簡化辦法彙整對照的表並且要說明目前進度跟預定的公告日期而署長不要再告訴我有一些縣市沒有辦法提供好吧第二個"},{"start":8027.017,"end":8056.592,"text":"针对殡葬设施量能提升的计划请刚刚已经部长说明了为什么115年度不续编但是我需要一份资料已经完成经费的分配清单请你提供然后告诉我们116年度是不是这个计划会重启并且要提供原箱带改善的清单第三个请针对警政署围牢津贴检讨虽然您刚刚已经说明了"},{"start":8057.079,"end":8085.562,"text":"也麻煩一下再提一份書面報告給我好嗎以上我的三點要求請問部長一週之內可以給我們國土署還有那個中理師跟警政署都會在一週內最後我還是要我最後還是要請部長提一個我覺得我知道這件事情會很辛苦麻煩一下整合內政部裡面的其他橫向的部會甚至於跟行政院報告說明"},{"start":8086.158,"end":8088.966,"text":"地震該怎麼處理艷澀湖該怎麼處理颱風該怎麼處理然後土石流該怎麼處理"},{"start":8096.038,"end":8122.463,"text":"這幾個經常在台灣發生的樣態的災難請告訴我們你們的SOP還有甚至於一般性的演練該怎麼處理可以嗎我們會來努力謝謝部長希望三個月可以給我嗎我們在月底的時候其實就是有個大型的研討會好我希望在你的任內這件事情可以完成好嗎我希望在你任內有點辛苦但是這必須的謝謝"},{"start":8128.479,"end":8154.393,"text":"謝謝我們感謝高金素美委員質詢我們請林淑芬委員質詢在這裏如果委員會報告我們突然請委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席是不是還是請我們劉部長要喝一口水喝完再來請保重"},{"start":8157.388,"end":8181.207,"text":"林委員好部長 要請教你你覺得一條人命大概是要多少錢值多少錢我覺得生命無價如果你是當父母親的話不會覺得要用金錢來衡量人的生命對 那我今天就是要就教於你就是說因為我們立法院為了保護警察的生命安全讓合法執行職務的警察在合法的使用警械的時候"},{"start":8182.869,"end":8195.965,"text":"可以不用瞻前顧後然後擔心自己將來會背負著這個誤傷無辜第三人的民事和刑事的責任所以在111年的9月30日我們修訂了警卸使用條例第4條"},{"start":8197.066,"end":8219.328,"text":"放寬了員警使用警械的條件但是立法院很負責任的同時修訂警械使用條例第十一條我們針對員警合法的使用警械如果造成第三人無辜的第三者傷亡的時候我們請內政部去制定補償辦法"},{"start":8221.25,"end":8239.127,"text":"現在我要再講掉一次我們現在講的是原警合法的使用警線造成無辜的第三人的傷亡那如果是有過失的違法的造成第三人傷亡不是我們去處理的不在我待會要討論的這個範疇這個有國家賠償法有民事刑事的責任可以問責"},{"start":8243.551,"end":8259.085,"text":"所以我不是要討論這個 我叫這個請部長看一下內政部根據立法院的這個要求 這個法律授權去制定了警卸使用事件的補償辦法第六條規定建議出這個條文是這樣講的 我們看到第六條的規定是這樣子"},{"start":8266.789,"end":8281.937,"text":"如果你被警察合法使用槍械的時候誤傷了死亡的話最高薪台幣六百萬集中度四百五十萬重度三百七十五萬中度兩百五十萬等等好我現在講了部長"},{"start":8283.038,"end":8292.02,"text":"我再請教你 你知道最近有幾個案子第一個就是這個111年發生在新北市中和轄區因為警察要逮捕懸掛偽造車牌的車輛結果他就是開槍打死了在車輛裡面後座無辜的第三者乘客請問一下這個警察機關補償這一位男乘客多少錢"},{"start":8309.87,"end":8325.349,"text":"現在在補償協議目前沒有成立那在行政書院當中你覺得他們機關拿出來為什麼協議不成立因為那個機關怕襲擊無辜的第三者那個機關提出原始多少價要補償人家 署長"},{"start":8328.624,"end":8330.726,"text":"這個部分我們可能還要再了解一下這個個案我都給你詢問了你們警政署都知道了你都給我回覆了你們就以說協議不成立還在討論當中在訴願當中你們知道價嗎我告訴你不是600萬也不是打5折300萬你們機關要賠償人家是150萬"},{"start":8353.168,"end":8361.812,"text":"我現在講的是合法使用警械無辜的第三人如果留彈那個是講這個車內的我們都知道打這個要追捕的時候開槍打輪胎容易子彈會反彈如果在路邊走路隨隨便便你部長我立委每一個人民都有可能成為無辜的第三者"},{"start":8378.92,"end":8390.847,"text":"而我們都知道這個警察合法使用警械所以這個無辜的第三者我們保護了警察的生命安全了那無辜的第三者的生命安全為什麼要付出這個代價你們不是給人家600萬也不是給人家300萬你們給人家150萬"},{"start":8401.414,"end":8428.726,"text":"你說這個家屬會同意嗎我今天在講我不是要談這一個個案雖然這一個個案我再講一下因為這個個案不是我要討論的當初警察有沒有過失責任的時候檢察官起訴了開槍的員警過失致死刑事二審的時候警察仍然無罪死者的家屬氣到打電話到法院裡面去"},{"start":8430.543,"end":8438.034,"text":"你知道氣到我認為他是講氣話但是我覺得家屬這種行為不可取也不合法但是他是這樣講的"},{"start":8439.403,"end":8464.639,"text":"我已經找好黑道 要買槍了他最想要殺掉的人是法官我現在不是要講 我認為這件事情是他的企劃但是是不應該 但我是要凸顯如果你 我每個人的家屬在路上走路被榴彈傷及死亡如果一個分局跟你說我150萬補償你"},{"start":8467.932,"end":8482.915,"text":"那個家屬情何以堪啊所以這是不是代表了過低的補償等於是對死者以及對死者的家屬這個是非常的不合理啊所以報告部長你說生命無價但是你們的補償條例定成這個樣子就算了600萬"},{"start":8490.197,"end":8510.045,"text":"人家食物面 食物面是給150萬你叫人家要達成協議 那有可能 那有可能人命不能用金錢來衡量然後呢 是無價的 你剛才講的這樣的差距會不會太大了 部長"},{"start":8513.621,"end":8522.385,"text":"那個委員我想你提的部分非常有理啦我們會來檢討一下看怎麼樣處理就是因為不管是我不是在討論個案喔我知道我今天講一個人命六百萬夠嗎可以嗎還有極度重殘"},{"start":8533.253,"end":8557.554,"text":"450萬你如果極度重殘在那裡送到安養院一個月安養費用四五萬一年要60萬你給他450萬他可以在那裡住七年八年之後他的餘生餘命的費用誰要負擔啊如果重度殘障重度失能375萬如果聘僱外勞的成本一年也要將近50萬"},{"start":8559.502,"end":8568.373,"text":"如果這樣子在家裡自己看顧你450萬 375萬可以顧幾年之後他的餘命 餘生誰要去負擔啊蛤"},{"start":8574.212,"end":8593.64,"text":"一個無辜的生命在國家行使公權力的過程當中被意外的結束掉了他的生命國家不能夠袖手旁觀連一個最起碼的保障都沒有更不要講溫暖所以人民怎麼感受得到說這樣的做是對的"},{"start":8595.56,"end":8618.14,"text":"你要修正保定你是不是說你要修正有那個我跟委員報告一下那個委員所提到的警戒使用條例是111年那在第11條裡面有提到說前項的補償項目基準程序跟相關事項的辦法由內政部定之所以內政部呢未來會根據委員所提到的會不會合乎我們現在社會上認知的一個基準我們會來做檢討改進"},{"start":8620.061,"end":8642.466,"text":"對啊 你要檢討改進啊但我不曉得你們的想像是什麼一條人命六百萬結果 食物面署長 食物面這個無辜的第三者你們中和分局跟人家說賠一百五十萬這個情何以堪啊六百萬都不合理了你還說一百五十萬不是打八案者耶 不是三百耶無辜的耶要不然是榴彈"},{"start":8648.123,"end":8670.721,"text":"你們的警政署有說你們警察大學的授信有說嗎其實警察開車開輪開車打輪胎是最危險的打輪胎打不準有時候會殘跳很容易誤傷無辜我現在講如果不改的話是怕個案太多不敢改要不然就是對警察的專業沒信心要不然就是對治安沒信心"},{"start":8672.102,"end":8686.441,"text":"所以這個這個我想都不是啦我相信部長今天在這裡這樣宣示部長這樣宣示我們正面看待而且這樣子希望你們可以更積極的作為但是書長書長國際觀執行面不是這樣執行面不是這樣更離譜"},{"start":8691.592,"end":8703.159,"text":"跟委員報告委員的這個非常支持警察的這個正確使用的這個槍枝因為每個狀況都非常的不一我們不要講非常狀況不一我們在講合法使用無過失造成這些的一個相關的不幸的事件我想這個有補償不然我們委員這個講的我認同我們來做一個"},{"start":8716.286,"end":8722.472,"text":"你認同這是不合理的現在的狀況不合理現實的狀況確實有真的是落差太大了有蠻大的落差這個我們會來做檢討這個辦法我們來做檢討有署長跟部長的承諾你們的檢討是要多久的時間三個月好不好這個三個月的時間我們來檢討這個好可以謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8743.089,"end":8748.25,"text":"謝謝我們感謝林淑雯委員我們現在突然請委員質詢好 謝謝主席那麻煩幫忙請劉世芳部長還有國土署的吳新修署長我們現在補充一下吳署長杜委員好"},{"start":8767.913,"end":8796.486,"text":"部長那我先今天想說跟你們討論一下有關於我們桃園航空城計畫一個關鍵基礎的建設工程那我大概先說明一下那有一條道路就是我們客運園區到機場的聯絡道路這一條道路全名是桃園市客運園區到機場聯絡道路大園區環區北路到環區東路入口到老街西的新建工程新P工程"},{"start":8797.168,"end":8825.182,"text":"那這個工程是由我們國土署來負責總經費是7億那國土署出5億市府出2億那這整個工程設計施工全部是由國土署來做那這個部分署長應該也知道他在111年的11月就來通車可是要跟部長署長來說明一下他不到半年這整個路面就塌陷"},{"start":8826.158,"end":8838.645,"text":"然後而且那整個歸列的非常非常的嚴重那也可以看一下我們的照片那後來當地的議員跟市府養工處都有去現場去勘查那當然"},{"start":8840.799,"end":8863.305,"text":"我們大概看一下這個時間表他從111年5月工程驗收再到111年11月1號通車又到112年的6月不到半年的時間道路就開始嚴重的損壞 坍塌 下陷那個時候我們國土署自己也知道這個問題有主動召集會勘"},{"start":8864.329,"end":8877.457,"text":"也找了當時的立委還有當區的議員那還有台電啊各個相關單位都去現場那後來我們的前立委何志偉也接受到這個陳情也有辦理這個會刊"},{"start":8878.39,"end":8898.19,"text":"後來要求兩個月內提出調查報告那國土署在兩個月以後提出報告但是現在一直到現在114年所有周邊的道路還是持續的破損塌陷那不知道說這段時間我們國土署"},{"start":8899.306,"end":8927.726,"text":"針對這些到底有沒有什麼去改善因為他這個道路喔在116年就保固到期那在今年9月我們國土署也有去會勘表示這個問題一直都沒有去改善那馬上保固期就到了到時候保固期到那時間一到沒有改善完成又交給市府那這問題還是沒有改善沒了解跟委員報告啦其實過程就像委員所了解的就是說"},{"start":8928.442,"end":8956.707,"text":"我們在112年去調查的時候發現是在之前台電買管線的時候因為我們因為兩旁都是皮糖很多所以我們在道路開挖的時候都有做隔水層後來發現其實是台電在挖管線的時候去挖破了隔水層導致旁邊的水壓上升以後灌進來那我們後來緊急在112年底有做CLSM去把它做一個填補那填補完以後一度以為那個效果有發生但是後來到"},{"start":8957.543,"end":8976.194,"text":"今年年初發現即使灌了CLSM以後因為滲水以後底層開始還是持續的軟爛下陷那所以在這個部分我們才在今年九月趕快再召開會議看就根據相關的調查看看能不能再找出比較徹底解決的一個方式"},{"start":8977.04,"end":8999.944,"text":"那我想這個我們會盡速把這個其實在112年9月的時候那時候就很明確我有看你們的相關的調查報告很明確就是地下水從台電的人孔湧入然後整個長期它又有地下水兩側的隔水層被挖破了被挖破了所以因為兩旁又是皮塘所以才會有那個水壓"},{"start":9000.697,"end":9010.302,"text":"一直衝進來造成這個底層會比較容易軟爛那所以當時才用CLSM去強灌希望把那一個破損的部分把它補起來"},{"start":9011.081,"end":9035.606,"text":"所以當時也知道問題可是到現在沒改善所以你們今年九月自己又再到開我想我們保固期前我們還是會提出比較具體的改善措施這個部分我們會來努力那像九月我看這個會刊的結論也已經出來那現在有沒有左手在艱辛因為這真的拖太多年了我們北宮分署已經都在左手沿你這一個改善了因為我們也希望改善完以後後續不要再發生這個問題而不是說"},{"start":9037.388,"end":9061.79,"text":"就像委員所擔心的我們只會在保固期裡面一直去做不會我們還是會希望找出比較徹底解決的方法那會不會一直沒有改善然後保固期就到這個我想我們署在做這些工程我們一定會努力把他負責到那萬一到時候保固期到還沒有改善我們會再提出新的改善工程出來所以我希望署長因為這個事情已經延宕很多年那從這一條路其實從開始通車沒有幾個月"},{"start":9063.621,"end":9085.668,"text":"就開始坍塌下陷而且連好天氣喔旁邊整個路面旁邊都是積水然後旁邊連整個外車道都已經開始下陷所以這個地下水的問題是非常非常的嚴重而且你們當初也明確說就是因為台電挖這個人手孔蓋管線的問題就是把兩旁的隔水層挖破了"},{"start":9086.089,"end":9101.373,"text":"就把它挖破了所以問題找到可是到現在一直沒有改善所以我想那個改善的方式我們還是會檢討啦我們會找到比較徹底的解決方法那我說希望喔那是不是在本週五之前能夠具體回覆我們後面要怎麼去做"},{"start":9102.268,"end":9130.88,"text":"我想我們待會回去會趕快把那個改善的報告那如果要跨部會協調也希望那本席也需要出面來幫忙來協調好 感謝委員到時候我們有需要的話還是會請在地的委員因為這已經真的延宕太多年了已經變成所有周邊也就是說我們持續改善但沒有效果效果還是不好而且這要通往機場通往我們國門是一條非常重要的道路這個已經是機場的周邊非常重要的關鍵道路所以"},{"start":9131.34,"end":9155.317,"text":"而且有很多不管國內外觀光客都會走我覺得這不要給我們國門不要給人家為首詬辯希望部長也幫我們監督因為這個案子真的牽扯太多年所以才會在這邊提出來土委員你講得非常的正確第一個他這個工程如果還在保固期的話按照公共工程委員會所訂定的這個公家機關招標而且是7億元"},{"start":9156.878,"end":9181.02,"text":"我們應該在不管是保固期內或期外應該把道路工程品質徹底的解決那現在委員已經提到說圓胸式台電假設圓胸台電是正確的話那我們就針對問題來解決問題那希望可以早日完工然後不會說按照委員講的如果你一再去整修出現狀況的話我們真的要從長計議怎麼樣解決地下水滲漏的問題恐怕就是未來工程上面需要面對的難題"},{"start":9182.134,"end":9200.89,"text":"對啦 我希望能夠具體改善啦你一直在鋪上面道路 它下面都是地下水我們不要這樣做 我們不是只有鋪上去而已 這樣子不行國家工程的品質不能用這樣的方式來要求好 希望部長跟署長出面來監督把我們這多年的問題能夠做一個具體的改善好 謝謝部長署長 謝謝謝謝我們感謝圖謙及立委執行我們以後困惡穩定"},{"start":9240.861,"end":9242.802,"text":"抱歉,抱歉,抱歉,抱歉,抱歉,"},{"start":9245.418,"end":9250.582,"text":"愛的平等 舒服啊愛的平等你看那個上次那個中青舞團隊那個結舞團隊"},{"start":9267.551,"end":9292.233,"text":"我覺得他講話,我很感動,會是神聖公公,我這些都是救災的醫生,你不能給我山啊,你給我山,我怎麼去救災?空中勤務總隊的,對啊,我看到他就想到他的心頭,他說,"},{"start":9293.609,"end":9295.61,"text":"什麼都能生,就是救災的前途能生,好難懂阿姨,你有什麼事情要跟阿姨說一下嗎?"},{"start":9312.073,"end":9341.402,"text":"你不要說這樣啊,你不是我的好朋友,我只要你加那一句仰仗,我會給你拿一張紙牌。他好厲害啊。你讀寫的報告你會加一張紙牌,你比較當好報告。我還找不到牌,又不太對。沒有啦,太笨啦,要簽到五月的時候,最糟糕啦。"},{"start":9350.852,"end":9360.462,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":9370.674,"end":9382.786,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":9410.997,"end":9411.457,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9430.156,"end":9435.819,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9461.935,"end":9465.519,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9511.311,"end":9512.332,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9538.375,"end":9538.996,"text":"臺北市中央公園"},{"start":9563.576,"end":9565.68,"text":"我們繼續開會,我們請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":9581.197,"end":9595.289,"text":"謝謝部長今天跟部長討論兩個問題一個就是有關於社團法另外一個是國家公園法就是說社團法在第九屆的時候我相信部長當時應該也非常了解它其實已經到了一個黨團協商的程序可是最後沒有三讀通過"},{"start":9596.03,"end":9615.769,"text":"那隨著屆期不連續 那立法程序也就中斷了嘛那到現在也已經過了七年我們還像這個法案好像都還在行政院那我不太確定說我們現在是不是有打算開始重啟這個作業因為我想跟部長表達就是說根據我們在2022年的這個國家結論性意見書裡面就有提到"},{"start":9616.71,"end":9632.583,"text":"就是這些國際的學者建議我們應該要儘速的完成社團法的立法而且人民團體法也被批評說是戒嚴時代的一個威權遺序過度的限制公民的結社自由所以社團法的制定其實是深化台灣的民主"},{"start":9633.669,"end":9657.954,"text":"那再來根據AFCA的這個亞洲公民未來協會它的報告也曾經指出在2020年外交部雖然曾經放寬過規定允許外國設立辦事處看似開放可是其實沒有法人的地位所以它沒有辦法進行募款也沒有辦法招募志工那特別是如果辦事處代表離職帳戶無法交接整個組織會陷入停擺"},{"start":9660.254,"end":9678.068,"text":"所以現在其實非常的迫切需要我們去有一個這樣子的社團法讓這些外國組織也可以登記為法人讓這些國際人權組織可以合法的運作也能夠讓我們的兒少參與更為落實所以我想要了解一下我們現在是不是有打算重啟那有沒有個具體的規劃時程"},{"start":9679.569,"end":9705.311,"text":"報告張委員我們在這個社團法的草案其實有送到行政院那在審議的過程當然是按照張委員所剛所提到兩公約的部分包括要調降他的發起人的門檻還有調降他要跨七個縣市然後還有針對這個具備居留證的部分或者是說未來看可不可以把許可制改為登記制度這個比較寬鬆的方式就是低度管理"},{"start":9706.051,"end":9724.207,"text":"那這個部分目前為止行政院還沒有把它完成這方面草案的審議送到大院來但是我們依照這樣的精神我們還是會持續改進未來如果有需求的話我們會朝著這方面再繼續努力我想已經迫切的有這個需求那是不是說因為其實已經過了也蠻長一段時間期"},{"start":9724.987,"end":9750.276,"text":"對 但是要排到議程上面也是一個比較大我們內政部需要去持續關注的一個焦點我想的是說內政部可不可以持續的去催促同時去收集一些新的意見對 但是我們也很怕藉其不蓄神所以可能在處理的過程當中我們會來努力就是說大院裡面如果有很多委員覺得這是一個共識性很強的話送進來我想並不會是太大的困擾"},{"start":9751.724,"end":9766.819,"text":"我想要說的是內政部可不可以開始去收集一些相關的意見因為可能當時的版本當然 我們如果要送進來的時候內部一定會再重新檢討希望能夠適應更多的國際上的建議的意見或是國內社團的要求"},{"start":9767.708,"end":9792.097,"text":"好 了解 再來第二個討論就是國家公園法其實已經超過半世紀從民國61年制定到現在已經超過半世紀沒有檢討我想部長也非常清楚我們過去是一個封山的國家可是我們現在已經走向開放山林向山致敬可是我們對於法治卻停留在禁止為主的一個思維缺乏彈性跟風險管理的一個架構"},{"start":9793.437,"end":9822.677,"text":"導致了保育跟使用的長期對立舉例來說呢2015年陽明山國家公園修正區域規範之後呢造成兩個問題第一個園內禁止步道競賽結果連非競技的活動也被限縮第二個像攀岩現在很多人會去玩攀岩這個活動可是因為責任歸屬不明維護標準模糊至今還是沒有正式的開放可是我們都非常清楚的知道實際上已經參與的人口非常的多那這樣子的人口在使用上"},{"start":9823.297,"end":9847.917,"text":"已經節節增加的時候我們可以看到在美國在美國他們其實已經有相關的做法例如國家公園管理局的就非常的明確的說要保育自然與歷史景觀的同時與全民共享經驗所以他們在很多的國家公園像這個是優勝美帝它有攀岩然後還有像是大峽谷它有越野跑長城健行那都是透過成長量控制"},{"start":9848.678,"end":9867.572,"text":"季節性限制以及活動分區來讓開放跟保育並行那像在右邊的這個日本的自然公園法也是我們大家可以看到這是在日光國立公園舉辦的越野跑都是把親近自然視為教育的一個部分而不是只是讓公園只是被觀看的風景我想"},{"start":9868.613,"end":9886.505,"text":"我想強調一個重點就是說3月是一個非常重要的環境教育的場域我們修法的時候應該要把戶外的安全條件和設施責任釐清所以我想請教一下部長是不是有一個具體的時程是否可以來納入我們日本跟美國的一個管理經驗"},{"start":9887.586,"end":9905.473,"text":"報告委員國家公園法的修法作業其實非常多的多元那當然我們已經開始有召開跨部會的協商了那什麼時候完成我希望國家公園署可以加快但是委員所提到的這些山芋活動的部分牽涉不會是只有我們國家公園署"},{"start":9906.333,"end":9919.745,"text":"其實還有運動部甚至交通部的觀光署都包含在內只要它規範的這些活動不要影響到我們國家公園署站在一個國家公園的角度上包括山林保育或者是氣候變遷還有安全上的需求的話其實我們都樂觀其成"},{"start":9924.89,"end":9953.04,"text":"我想就是說因為我們今天要談開放我也想要跟部長還有署長對不對就是說因為要講這件事情之前還是要了解環境承載量到底可以承載到多少才能夠確實的保育能不能執行所以而且因為不同的園區生態條件環境都是非常不同的所以我們必須要一個量化的科學研究是不是可以請部長同意我們針對國家公園的環境承載量制度進行一個系統性的研究用更客觀的數據作為依據呢"},{"start":9955.545,"end":9975.647,"text":"跟委員報告就像委員所了解的我們說國家公園署下面的很多不同的這個國家公園署要做這樣的承載量的一個預估跟量化確實比較困擾那必須要結合相當多的專家那當然也希望委員能夠支持我們國家公園署的相關預算未來如果這個需求的話我們會往這方面來努力"},{"start":9976.247,"end":9996.6,"text":"一定是支持啦但是我想這個因為是一個系統性研究是不是應該可以先撥相關的預算不然其實很難去討論科學化的沒有 跟委員報告一下系統性的研究如果你能夠標榜出來是哪一些方向我想委員不會要我們去數說這個國家公園署有多少樹木但是國家公園署可以在氣候變遷的條件之下包括固碳"},{"start":9998.101,"end":10022.531,"text":"或者是節能減碳或是對整體的我們台灣的這個氣候變遷的這個行動方案有幫忙這一點我們已經在努力處理當中而且我們會有這個Action Plan但是如果要做系統性的是屬於哪一類的標杆那恐怕我們還要再看一下包括聯合國或是其他世界各國在處理國家公園他們的一個量化的指標是什麼如果這些有量化指標出來的話我們會朝著這方面量化指標的示範方向來進行"},{"start":10023.476,"end":10051.014,"text":"所以聽起來就是說我們可以參考國外的一個量化指標來進行對不對對 但是我們要去我們要去尋找出來是哪些量化指標不能好像什麼都要從這個什麼天氣然後到這個地下水我們沒有那個能耐去處理這一塊因為我們今天講的還是回到山林保育跟推廣自然這個活動並行的一個狀態推廣自然活動應該是我們只是樂觀其成就是未來運動部或者是交通部觀光署他們有相關的活動我們會支持"},{"start":10052.475,"end":10075.34,"text":"就是运动部它是活动的部分但是我们还是要知道说这个地方可以容纳多少怎样子类型跟人流这还是我们需要去掌握因为我们才能做到山林保育所以我们是不是可以往这个方向去做研究听懂了我想委员的方向我们会支持但是人流是可以控制但是未来如果有很多二氧化碳譬如说要在里面举行赛车F1恐怕我们无法认同"},{"start":10075.54,"end":10091.904,"text":"對啊對啊是啊是啊是啊我只是說我們是不是可以針對這一些我們到底可以做到什麼樣子的活動我們才能夠開放給運動部嘛因為如果我們沒有這些資料運動部也很難去發展相關的活動嘛所以這部分的研究是可以執行的對嗎是嗎我們來評估好謝謝你謝謝感謝張雅玲委員執行我們家陳冠廷委員執行"},{"start":10107.49,"end":10110.792,"text":"主席我們請部長委員好部長好部長我們內政部也一起積極的推動全社會韌性的政策那要強化我們社區的防災能量那同時我也看到民政司他也積極的去輔導這些社區發展協會那希望說社區活用中心可以成為基層服務的這個重要的據點那這些政策方向我們都非常支持"},{"start":10136.266,"end":10153.225,"text":"但是我们现在其实我们嘉义县也好其实各县市都有类似的问题就是说在实际运作的社区活动中心现在遇到一些困境就是没有建造跟市造我们嘉义县237间社区活动中心里面只有90间左右有合法的建造跟市造"},{"start":10153.922,"end":10177.89,"text":"那換句話說就是六成沒有嘛那六成沒有的話這也不是只有加一的問題我想這是結構性的問題這些中心現在沒有建造時照但是還是正常在使用那也就是說政府的重要的政策任務像是長照C據點老人共餐疫苗施打站那甚至有些是被指定為防災避難所但是因為法規的限制這是老問題了他們沒有辦法申請中央的進行"},{"start":10178.89,"end":10193.721,"text":"補助然後進行修繕有一些中心還出現安全的疑慮比方說台中神鋼的快打站也有吊扇直接砸落民眾的事件針對這些事實上長期在使用服務民眾但是缺乏建造時照"},{"start":10194.361,"end":10209.401,"text":"那這樣的社區活動中心內政部目前掌握的全國性的統計數據大概是多少大概比例是多少謝謝陳委員的關心如果不安全的話我們不建議它變成防災協作中心但是怎麼樣進行未來的改善工作我請市長跟您回應一下好嗎好"},{"start":10211.322,"end":10232.853,"text":"包括社區活動中心的主管機關是衛福部村里集會所是由內政部來主管村里集會所的部分如果是社區活動中心的主管機關是衛福部我們現在講的是內政部的公共服務劇種及有效的危險補強的這些集會所"},{"start":10234.039,"end":10247.281,"text":"我現在講的不是社區活動中心我現在講社區活動中心的概念我是意思說集會所那就是你們所轄的這些集會所你們要怎麼樣去把它做前瞻計畫有補助但是計畫只到今年的8月為止"},{"start":10249.299,"end":10273.28,"text":"前瞻的計劃有補助村里集會所但是他的計劃是到今年的8月我先來問你是說那如果沒有建造實照他們也可以得到這樣子的補助去修繕嗎基本上要有建造實照所以我的問題不就是在問說那沒有建造實照的話那他們現在這些集會場所那這些集會場所他沒有辦法得到這些補助的話"},{"start":10273.86,"end":10292.072,"text":"那它還是在成為實質上面在被使用的有沒有一些方案因為它是一個公共場所安全是最重要的一個問題所以如果沒有這個安全的一個保障我們沒有這個建造實照的話應該是不太適合作為公眾集會的場所"},{"start":10292.945,"end":10307.305,"text":"但是他們現在事實上實際上它成為一個集會所所以這是一個死循環因為它沒有實照它沒有辦法申請內政部的農村社區公共改善的補助計畫或者是政府的修繕計畫或者是我們剛才提到公共服務據點及公有危險建築"},{"start":10308.386,"end":10326.79,"text":"這一個補強的計劃那怎麼辦呢那他現在實質上還是在被使用如果是合法的這個建築物當然相關的補強一往是有補助那如果沒有建交史照這部分通常是由地方政府選密和這個適合的地點再來改建"},{"start":10327.816,"end":10354.535,"text":"直接就是把那些地方全部把它廢除掉然後找其他地方再來改建找其他事務的地點來新建或改建那這個我剛剛提到270幾個有90多個據點我們現在不講我們沒有在搶匯幅我講你們所主管的這些集會場所啊包含你們也被監察院這一個有報告上面質詢的這些集會場所就是你們所負責的地方你們現在的問題出現了你要怎麼樣保證它的基本安全"},{"start":10356.485,"end":10373.83,"text":"這些人出現我的建議是不是有辦法設立過渡型的安全改善的專項補助過去六年在這個前瞻計畫裡面地方有提出來的要這個補強要改善的部分可以處理的部分我們都已經盡量來做協助了"},{"start":10374.23,"end":10395.997,"text":"我現在講的就是我剛才提到的實質使用沒有建造實照的這一些因為基於安全的問題這個部分我們還是建議地方要尋找適合的地點來興建公眾集會的一個場所那這樣子在我們嘉義縣剛剛提到的你們所挾的這個據點"},{"start":10398.328,"end":10407.396,"text":"有六七層都沒有那我們要怎麼樣找到那六七層沒有石造跟建造的這些建築物來供我們的這種據點使用"},{"start":10409.651,"end":10432.923,"text":"這個部分因為基於公眾安全這個部分我們還會再跟地方政府來做討論沒關係 那我的意思是說假設現有據點你沒有辦法因為它沒有建造史照你沒有辦法可以補助修繕等等的那變成要尋覓新的地點來去重新啟用不是重新啟用來去重新來建造那就是很大規模的這個預算"},{"start":10435.226,"end":10445.891,"text":"我們不要既要且要沒關係但是我們要一個方案嘛那現在就是方案沒有出來嘛方案經常院也都給你們有相關的這些報告來說你們這些不管是你的這些這個"},{"start":10447.709,"end":10465.398,"text":"防災的避難所等等有些都不符合規定那這個錢要怎麼辦這個想一下好不好好不好委員我跟你回應一下那個我相信在嘉義縣碰到這個困擾所以那個委員才會提出這樣的問題我剛有詢問我們國土署我們國土署有幫忙做這個耐震補強"},{"start":10466.138,"end":10493.074,"text":"只有針對耐震補強的部分那這個是表示外觀的這個結構建築在耐震上面如果需要幫忙的話我們可以協助可是未來可不可以指定成防災協作的這個部分要由民政司來做確認因為他還是要求你需要有建物要非常安全而且所有權沒有其他的這個爭執的時候才能指定下去所以這是兩回事但是如果你針對屋子本身的結構上面需要耐震補強的部分我想我們國土署是可以協助的"},{"start":10493.55,"end":10498.535,"text":"耐震的話是可以協助的好吧總是有一個開始嗎好謝謝謝謝我們感謝陳冠廷委員我們請鄧學忠委員執行感謝蔣委我請我們保長請保長"},{"start":10523.649,"end":10553.047,"text":"阿丁委員阿丁你這次都三年了沒有耶感謝委員的關心可能有在瘦身的看比較翹脆的看阿丁我們今天講對我們這個危老條例還剩一年多就要結束了我們現在講對這個這個部分說請我們危老重建條例最新的性格是如何"},{"start":10553.747,"end":10581.811,"text":"圍牢重建條例的要落日應該沒有吧你說的是可能圍牢條例明年我想您講的部分是應該是都跟圍牢條例要不要修正草案有啦我們要修正目前不是就有現在的進度是嗎好 報告因為我們這個每一年都差不多大概九年就都開始在講這件事所以我們都有"},{"start":10582.455,"end":10588.118,"text":"因為我們有請專家學者 也有召開機關的協商會議 到現在九月份還在開 昨天就開了 機關的檢討會也開了三天所以大家現在有幾個重點 那個修繕的方式 現在把我們創新的老宅研修計畫的概念先放下去"},{"start":10604.414,"end":10616.962,"text":"然後當然大家想關鍵是說關鍵那個施行日期現在我們這時候是要把它刪除因為那個未來變一個常態性的一個做法還有那個圍牢重建的適用範圍還有他的那個容積獎勵制度都會整個做調整那我們要去考慮這個稅負減免的部分來把它擴大國情的這個合作的案件比較多是這個黨綱跟我們綱的執行力是不是有較"},{"start":10634.045,"end":10639.45,"text":"我們這個進途的時間有啦 因為現在高木井喔那個核准的比例很高啦4900多件有核准4700多件有建造的有3000通件啦那已經有新部開工已經有2500多件"},{"start":10650.616,"end":10654.618,"text":"所以這個選擇是還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以還可以"},{"start":10679.875,"end":10693.603,"text":"施行日期給它站住重點的範圍 還有一些標準 還有做一些修改剛才說到這個老宅延燒的 未來需要的經費要多少現在是三年五十億三年五十億 我就我就得到我們要的預期跟期待是啦 我當然希望說"},{"start":10707.573,"end":10716.257,"text":"當然希望說一開始 大家可以用力申請我們現在已經有在辦收銀會嗎沒有啦 要等一段時間才決定通過所以現在我們如果決定這個結尾通過之後我們就正式開始辦相關的收銀會收銀會 先不要說只有局限在土耳其年輕人增加分流"},{"start":10733.396,"end":10740.599,"text":"我們當然一開始在選委會、選民會我們的資料到每個縣市都辦這個國分我們都要去開一個選委會這個國分照顧到頭來好 感謝國長謝謝 感謝鄧學忠委員剛才說的那個有說到加基金麻煩啦 雲雲也納入好不好 每個縣市都去"},{"start":10761.496,"end":10790.27,"text":"你好陳學生委員請質詢好謝謝謝謝召委有給我認識是不是請一下部長好不好請保證陳委員好部長是好像第一次質詢你"},{"start":10792.239,"end":10821.301,"text":"同事以後啊有一點忘記了 但是你是立法院的前輩沒有沒有 你是前輩啊我今天跟你談什麼 談人球馬祖目前有五個人球你知道嗎我不曉得多少 但是我知道你是說收容安置的部分 收容的部分五個我不曉得幾個 但是我知道有五個其中有四個是中國大陸籍有一個浙江籍的 有四個是四個是福建的"},{"start":10822.996,"end":10837.849,"text":"這個人球你準備怎麼辦我們當然要持續跟中國大陸來溝通啦你跟他怎麼溝通我問過邱主委邱主委跟他沒有聯絡方式如果委員可以幫忙的話一定會非常大的注意"},{"start":10838.407,"end":10864.669,"text":"那大陸委員會就不要了嗎不能這樣講這個行政程序上面陸委會或者是海基會還是需要知道委員你應該非常清楚嘛我也跟縣長有談過知道大概怎麼樣處理這一塊但是事實上這不能由單方面來做決定我這兩天跟邱主委電話聯絡他說我們要健康有序的交流怎麼健康法你告訴我"},{"start":10866.175,"end":10876.022,"text":"就是在盡量透明我告訴邱主委啊大陸委員會可以撤掉了海基會也可以撤掉了沒有功能 剩下剩下什麼剩下文書驗證的功能但是文書驗證的比例非常高欸你跟人家講話人家也不理你對不對都是已讀不回啊那這樣下去怎麼辦這個人球要陳遠森處理嗎"},{"start":10896.789,"end":10919.943,"text":"我剛有提到如果委員可以幫忙處理我們會非常感激我當然可以幫忙但是在行政程序上面還是由官方機構來祭節會比較好我連跟邱主委講大陸委會真的可以不要了現在仇中反中啊內政部做就好啦國安局做就好啦是不是大陸委會要幹什麼用我請問你他真的沒有功能你這五個人球怎麼辦要找陳雪生是不是我們"},{"start":10927.214,"end":10949.407,"text":"跟委員報告這個在卓院長在回應其他立委的說法的時候也要求我們要修改這個入出國移民法的部分對於收容替代的部分如果在台灣有這個違規或是違法的時候要不要加重處罰但是比較重要就是您剛所說的怎麼樣讓這個我想不要講人求啦現在這五個喔也服刑完畢了喔"},{"start":10952.663,"end":10964.649,"text":"所以才叫收容 該關的也都關了這人在馬祖啊 在移民署倒楣可是關的天數超過嘛沒有啊 署長這些人是自由活動嘛 對不對"},{"start":10965.878,"end":10992.965,"text":"因為報告委員因為這個部分最近有一個是因為那個勾斷海底電纜的那個也自由活動那個現在是因為他被限制出境然後超過所謂的收容天數所以必須得收容替代我不是講這個我講的是其他五個包括這一個是五個那四個在幹什麼那兩個是偷渡的有一個在台灣嘛有一個在台灣的收容所嘛那對"},{"start":10994.588,"end":11015.49,"text":"因為現在的這個部分最大的問題是因為他沒有相關證件沒有辦法送他回去因為大陸他自己不給他大通證所以我們就送不回去我現在給他弄了一個大通證的一次性的大通證 移民署也沒看過福建特別幫他辦了一個大通證是一次性的"},{"start":11017.305,"end":11044.106,"text":"那個宜峻有沒有來 宜峻組長報告委員 您說的那個就是那個勾斷海底電來的因為他現在那個案件他現在法院的判決啦對 他現在案件還在偵審當中所以還沒有起訴 案子還沒有結所以他也沒辦法走但是大陸的一次性大眾證我已經拿到了對 但是問題是這個會不會影響 有沒有什麼國安法的問題對我這個應該是違反電信電業法啦應該是電信管理法你說我個人的部分嗎這一位偷渡犯啦"},{"start":11047.096,"end":11074.904,"text":"我這樣跟他們打電話有沒有通廢啊或是幹什麼的有這個問題嗎 國安局局長沒來嗎沒有啦 這個委員是協助啦是協助嘛 對對對對在你這裡講協助啊在地檢署講就不是協助啦 你知道嗎那問題 事情就大條啦台灣話是不是這樣講有吼 欸現在已經開一個例啦吼我希望這一個法院判決以後讓他回去"},{"start":11076.241,"end":11102.531,"text":"如果有證件我們會做我們這裡會給他辦臨時的出境臨時出境大陸的大通證一次性的給他辦好了已經送過來了我請他交給我們議長原則上如果是有可以回去的證件只要有證件我們都會去做協助這個沒問題吧這個要跟陸委會繼續去協商好 署長你請回那個部長再跟你報告一下來難得來"},{"start":11110.961,"end":11132.236,"text":"現在金門有那個落地簽馬祖沒有耶金門小山東開放以後金門馬祖開放嘛金門現在人流是一百多萬人我們馬祖大概大陸過來只有兩千個人所以大陸那邊一直跟我講"},{"start":11133.402,"end":11134.864,"text":"希望能夠辦落地簽可以辦落地簽嗎報告委員我們得到的訊息是金門的落地簽還沒有完全同意"},{"start":11146.772,"end":11164.305,"text":"沒完全同意 你覺得沒有嗎因為我們是跟陸委會一起所以陸委會他在溝通的過程當中如果有的話我們當然會樂觀提問現在的大陸觀光客一個都不准進來喔你知道這個事嗎除了商務簽證可以進來 其他人"},{"start":11170.937,"end":11189.542,"text":"來觀光的一個都不只放進來報告委員那個觀光社還沒有開放但是那個小三通的部分是有對那健康永續的交流如果沒有健康永續的話沒有講一國兩制沒有講九二共識永遠也健康不起來那大陸人永遠不要來不要來對我們是好事還是壞事"},{"start":11191.032,"end":11219.085,"text":"報告委員 健康有序啦然後健康有序也要安全你講的很健康 人家講的不健康啊各說各話現在又躺在那裡 我跟陸委會主委講你在十年啊 也是在繼續健康有序啦是這樣子嗎如果有飛機跟那個船艦在我們的海峽周遭騷擾的話一點也不健康啊 因為不安全啊人進不來他們大陸人進不了台灣"},{"start":11220.214,"end":11239.891,"text":"沒有喔 我所了解的從中國大陸到台灣來不管他是什麼身份這個人數跟疫情前提起來是不差部長我今天提醒你注意一下好不好因為你非常優秀的人對不對你在高雄也當過副市長又當過我們同事對不對現在貴為內政部部長你研究一下好不好"},{"start":11240.612,"end":11262.468,"text":"看看這個我們跟陸委會來配合看看陸立謙啊你最好不要跟他配合配合就沒有了行政是一體的行政是一體的有時候他們會當比較多黑臉好好研究一下好不好謝謝因為那個我後面是賴會員時間給我啦不行啦 不行這樣子不行喔不行好啦好啦"},{"start":11266.79,"end":11270.572,"text":"謝謝 感謝陳學生委員我們現在讓委員執行謝謝主席 謝謝 請部長"},{"start":11287.73,"end":11311.378,"text":"請補充委員長跟你跟部長做一個探討這個10月28號以後近一個禮拜我的臉書被灌爆加碼補助雖然是好事情可是基層苦苦的在等待一個明確的說明10月28號行政院長他有公布就是說"},{"start":11312.518,"end":11320.762,"text":"針對的丹納斯颱風在這個2萬元的加碼補助的部分2萬那我可不可以請那個署長跟您報告一下好嗎最新的進度沒問題跟委員報告這應該也是在10月28號院長宣布的這個最新的就是它一致性也就是說它是一般戶有這一個煤和修繕簽約的這個部分又加2萬"},{"start":11342.286,"end":11352.368,"text":"這個部分那後來又再公布了一個部分修繕面積的我請問你到底就是說在台南市登錄的這個47,823戶然後媒合成功的1022戶那剩下來的這個4600那個46,801戶是不是每一個戶都可以領到這個2萬塊"},{"start":11370.507,"end":11390.58,"text":"對嘛 每一戶都可以領到兩萬塊可是現在就是在整個地方上這個台南市政府也說不清楚所以今天特別特別回到那個行政院就是要問那行政院什麼時候撥款因為你要告訴我說現在計畫還在擬定然後"},{"start":11393.001,"end":11404.854,"text":"那个等花放的办法拟定了以后再往下走再提出申请再提出那个合定的一个那个办法那这到底要多久"},{"start":11405.969,"end":11426.999,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們已經簽報到行政院了因為跟委員報告的確就是台南市政委員很辛苦因為每條一次方案他們的經費就要重算所以已經算了很多次所以後來已經有提報上了報告院你簽到行政院就是你擬定的計畫簽到行政院對不對現在是到這個環節而已"},{"start":11428.98,"end":11457.771,"text":"那我再請教你說你的花放的一個辦法到你的核定然後核定完了以後你還要再公佈就是你申請的你花放的流程這樣大概要多久我們是希望在這個月內就處理完了因為這個月內對對這個月你承諾這個月內是是重塑重檢重寬因為這一次就不分資格了在地方我們被罵慘了因為台南市政府也講不清楚"},{"start":11460.639,"end":11476.685,"text":"行政院公佈的啊 10月28號都公佈了我們這個圖卡也做了 結果我們沒有辦法很明確的告訴大家就是說錢什麼時候花 那這個資格是不是這個就是扣掉了1022戶 其他的46801戶這個一樣也可以領到這個2萬塊嗎 署長"},{"start":11484.588,"end":11500.73,"text":"一樣也可以領到這個兩萬塊嗎補考的都可以領到這個兩萬塊你不要給我回答是你說對完全正確沒有錯這些人也可以領到兩萬塊因為我這樣好撿袋子"},{"start":11502.322,"end":11515.517,"text":"為什麼 因為大家不清楚嘛所以我們變成就是說一定要來聽部長 聽署長很正確的把所有的該有的這一些條件然後把它講清楚"},{"start":11516.181,"end":11539.543,"text":"對因為因為市府也辛苦了因為要全部重新造冊所以我們也是那時候也請他趕快造冊那我們一邊報計劃然後他請他一邊造冊對現在兩邊同時在作業所以署長你承諾就是這加碼的兩萬塊就是在這個月的月底11月月底大家會領到錢是大家有辦法領到錢"},{"start":11541.224,"end":11552.356,"text":"那這些情況自行修繕的也是一樣可以領到這個兩萬塊那是不是可以比照就是污損的未住金直接撥入帳戶呢"},{"start":11554.166,"end":11575.752,"text":"我想我們跟市府確認一下因為市府也有市府的作業我們是負責把錢撥給市政府我想署長你來自於台南你應該非常清楚就是台南市就是我們的那個台南市民的那個年齡層年紀偏大如果可以直接撥入就是延漲付的話這個會減少到就是詐騙詐騙的一個那個集團的"},{"start":11582.116,"end":11592.357,"text":"再一次的他們的一個行動所以我還是建議就是直接撥入延漲戶這個是對市民來講是一個比較安全的方式"},{"start":11593.656,"end":11612.369,"text":"會來跟市府這邊加速協商這個事好 謝謝那再跟部長請教一下找不到路這個找不到路台南市升格15年還有7個區沒有入民那其中這7個區本席就有3個區那存在了一個就是江津北門學甲"},{"start":11614.13,"end":11638.624,"text":"那提出來要那個整個那個自救的一個情況是不是就是說條件太嚴苛了需要那個五分之一的副長提案然後再取得三分之二的書面同意是不是就是說甚至還要再等到一年以後如果這一次沒有過的話要再等到一年以後才能重提"},{"start":11639.639,"end":11643.573,"text":"那在這裡要請教部長有沒有比較好的一個方式"},{"start":11646.414,"end":11671.505,"text":"只有入名 門牌號沒有入名只有門牌號跟那個地方的一個名字那怎麼辦這個是需要中央的一個協助那個台南市政府可以先編訂入名嗎沒有入名我們外地的人怎麼找得到他就是沒有辦法編嘛他就是沒有辦法編所以是不是你看嘛他已經晃著深隔15年了他到現在一直沒有處理"},{"start":11672.305,"end":11698.631,"text":"所以就是說有沒有一個具體的方式可以那個來那邊有里長然後有里長表示有里長辦公室那附近有沒有派出所有啊都有啊這樣子好不好就是說我們先找定點因為未來的這個派出所或者是消防隊他們會有他們的這個地方上的點位那如果在救災上面他知道地方上點位在哪裡的話也許我們找到會比較方便"},{"start":11698.831,"end":11712.02,"text":"因為你沒有入名我們也沒有辦法去告訴外來救災的人怎麼樣去到那個現場好嗎所以這一次在丹納斯颱風就出現了很多志工還有就是這些物理守護道吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹"},{"start":11725.45,"end":11744.766,"text":"已經有五年的時間沒有盤點了你要加速加快好 謝謝 謝謝部長我們還是請台南市政府根據地方自治趕快把路民弄出來這樣可能會比較好好 那就回到第一我這個也是要撿袋子撿袋子 然後就讓黃偉哲市長聽到是 謝謝好 謝謝 感謝大會委員 委員"},{"start":11752.216,"end":11755.777,"text":"在這裏我剛才說的,我們縣長有發言,那位署長,我在這裏要說一句,因為他去到關雲林到台南"},{"start":11770.226,"end":11794.662,"text":"這四個月就是院長所發佈的這樣但是這四個月麻煩你如果當地的市政府再溝通一下像今天他現在登記的報告11月28日跟這個規定的時候有的報告誰不知道所以就在的錢任何一角我們都要用在"},{"start":11799.625,"end":11809.051,"text":"在下會受在下的責任會擔心但是有的責任完全不知道要怎麼去申請有時候要補人的事 什麼要再送還要再送慢慢發佈 有的人擔不住就已經修理好了"},{"start":11821.162,"end":11842.357,"text":"還不算便宜也沒有啦署長要扁免一下啦真的要用在災民身上啊那要去跟他一起 請拜託的去了解一下抱歉 抱歉我們這裡吳清明委員質詢抱歉 擔保一點點時間 謝謝好 謝謝我們召委 我們議會同仁請我們郭徒數 我們吳署長"},{"start":11850.094,"end":11852.114,"text":"來請署長 吳署長署長你好署長 我請問我們的土層我們頂部的社會住宅現在在去我們現在頂部這個所在我們土層我過去我所提出的在我們的吉光市村因為那是我們的軍事的土地"},{"start":11877.362,"end":11899.673,"text":"所以說那個土地的面積非常大你未來現在已經規劃怎樣土層包含我們法院旁邊還有一塊現在進行得怎麼樣當然我們現在澳沙這一些都是已經有列入年度計劃的包括說我們這個土層司法園區這塊確實當然現在就是他現在那個土地"},{"start":11904.547,"end":11921.657,"text":"我們的土層處他們的這整個屈蘭徵收工程有明確已經做出來了那這部分我們就會納入到計劃裡面再去提報土層我們這間是社宅非常欠缺的地方所以這點我們一定會加速來處理因為未來你現在規劃未來土層有幾處我印象土層應該有四處明確講一下"},{"start":11930.177,"end":11935.888,"text":"可能資料的話我再提供給另外再提供給委員我現在請問我們現在這個社宅社宅在土城這個地方"},{"start":11942.148,"end":11963.944,"text":"因為需求量非常大因為我們是一個渡位區所以說現在很多年輕人大家對這個社宅像他們的需求量他們的意望都很高所以說土層這個地方很多有很多的公家土地我們可以充分來使用這可以解決我們的民眾的問題這樣說 未來我們三峽這個地方"},{"start":11971.01,"end":11998.796,"text":"三峽之前盤出來的點比較少因為三峽可以蓋的位置本來就少了因為之前最早也在台北大學城那邊希望找到適合的地但是一直不容易我印象三峽好像只有盤到兩塊而且面積都很小面積都很小對 因為老實說那邊比較難找地因為它也沒有新的開發區如果大學城地區的話幾乎土地區都開發滿了公有地也都用完了"},{"start":11999.778,"end":12027.695,"text":"那那個司法園區目前的進度怎樣先跟委員報告一下那個司法園區的部分社宅用地我們現在保留1.1公頃那還有幾塊那個住宅區的部分現在跟住住中心在討論看要不要留作社宅用地這個我們會來配合辦理那第二個司法園區的部分的話去年3月開始開工那現在的話安置的接貨現在已經先在做一個處理了"},{"start":12028.175,"end":12037.262,"text":"那這個部分工程的部分因為之前有遇到一些老樹移植還有一些地下管線的部分工程有些delay不過我們會趕快來把它"},{"start":12038.103,"end":12060.642,"text":"工程把它趕上那原則上116年底交遞給那個司法院跟法務部的這個目標現在還是現在朝這個方向來處理116年就可以全部完工嗎116年底先交遞給司法園區就是司法院跟檢察署他們要蓋那個司法大樓的部分跟看守所的部分"},{"start":12061.104,"end":12071.222,"text":"那後續工程的部分的話整體完成之後我們就會開始點交給我們當地的民眾這樣那市長你剛才說有delaydelay的時程有"},{"start":12072.389,"end":12094.714,"text":"有大概半年左右因為現在還有一個部分就是現在台電的話因為本來是69KV的高壓電線他現在把整個土層161KV全部要移到走司法園區那邊所以整個一個規劃的部分都要會去做一個調整所以工程進度會稍微有些落後我們現在在調工程的期程跟"},{"start":12095.43,"end":12102.312,"text":"盡量來趕工這樣 這樣好 我們就盡量趕工 歐陽管心謝謝 我們會來注意好 謝謝 感謝好 請我們宗教師來 請宗教師長好 師長好 師長我們宗教團體 自然人名譽登記那現在我們全國盤查了登記有多少有協助申請的"},{"start":12122.424,"end":12132.116,"text":"跟委員報告現在有911家已經來登記來完成了那大概他的比例大概是42%左右42%那等於還有58%58%都沒有申請登記"},{"start":12139.164,"end":12151.794,"text":"對 它有些是因為土地有紛爭有些是土地要做變革有些是所有權人還是不同意或者是市面上不會主動所以目前我們還是會積極輔導是不是在明年6月9號之前趕快來完成因為你再剩半年的時間我們已經延後了三年 兩年那兩年 現在就半年的時間又到了那你未來這些沒有舞蹈登記的這些要怎樣處理"},{"start":12167.201,"end":12179.868,"text":"跟委員報告 未來我們可能就朝向專業 就是專案輔導的部分就是原來他的土地可能是在農業區的 或者是他因為還是自然的民意我們就用專案輔導 就有通販捷島或是土地兵的方式來輔導他只是說那種方式會時間比較長 但是我們會積極來輔導"},{"start":12188.975,"end":12204.58,"text":"因為你負責宗教這些區塊上個禮拜就是禮拜五跟禮拜六我們土城白沙屯馬祖來土城遶境你知道人多少嗎光是一天就十幾萬"},{"start":12206.616,"end":12218.185,"text":"所以你這個宗教這個區塊你一定要去妥善去處理好你說像這種大型的我們要怎樣來協助這次我還是很感謝我們警政署"},{"start":12219.079,"end":12239.148,"text":"警政署動用所有警察的交通維護真的做得非常好所以在這邊我也特別感謝我們警政署還有我們很多民間社團這個宗教這個區塊你一定要去處理好好不好還是他們這個力量真的非常有過大好謝謝好謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳清明委員執行"},{"start":12247.138,"end":12271.244,"text":"鄭天才委員執行我們中途不需要休息繼續開會好 召委還有各位委員有請部長還有消防署加消署長國土署"},{"start":12274.847,"end":12302.881,"text":"請問吳署長部長好我們還是要再談這個菸社府應變作業標準作業程序這個部分因為它的成績很低所以它只是一個作業程序所以這一次的花蓮馬太安溪菸社府潰壩所造成重大的災害所以我們必須要去檢討"},{"start":12304.589,"end":12330.551,"text":"在院長的施政質詢的時候我也質詢過了現在特別要請這個內政部要去提升這個法例的位階因為這個標準作業程序他成績很低所以都是只有林務級甚至他的林管處在處理所以事實上他相關的有很多的規定"},{"start":12331.26,"end":12359.561,"text":"包括這個除了菸攝乎這個壩體要開挖之外讓他能夠慢慢留不要造成潰壩造成這個傷亡也提到河道要紓俊然後相關的堤防要加固加工都有規定但是因為這個相關的作業程序真的是非常的低所以我的建議就是說"},{"start":12360.39,"end":12388.469,"text":"在災害防救法第22條裡面有規定為減少災害發生或防止災害擴大應該要實施減災的事項譬如說災害潛勢危險度 境況模擬與風險評估都有規定智商防洪及其他國土保安災害防救法都有但是針對驗社府的部分沒有特別列進去"},{"start":12389.184,"end":12404.735,"text":"所以我的建議就是災害防救法要增加這個有關菸攝乎這樣的一個處理而且提升為法例位增加一條或是一項然後授權授權這個相關的部會來訂這個法規部長可以嗎"},{"start":12414.16,"end":12425.306,"text":"謝謝委員的指教跟委員報告有兩個方向第一個就是災防法修正的時候那農業部呢會把艷澀湖呢當成是災防法農業部的主管單位主管負責的單位那這個我們在這個月底的時候會請這個學者專家來提供這份修法的意見但是院長已經有跟農業部提到就是台灣的這個艷澀湖未來"},{"start":12442.314,"end":12467.073,"text":"在監測或是相關的保育工作還是由農業部來負責這第一個然後第二個有關現在的復原重建方案包括馬太安溪現在所剩下的土石邊坡的問題在我們復原重建方案尤其是行政院公共工程委員會在上一次黨團協商在立法院黨團協商的時候已經有指定是由我們行政院的李孟彥顧問"},{"start":12468.334,"end":12494.39,"text":"他現在正在召集包括各方面的專家怎麼樣處理這現在馬太安溪上游晏舍湖的部分怎麼樣做減災跟離災的工程的進度好這個當然是不是要由農業部你們去評估因為這個院長已經有這樣子的對外的宣示基本上都會在國有林地基本上都會在國有林地這是基本上如果是在"},{"start":12495.29,"end":12523.013,"text":"原住民的保留地那怎麼辦那是不是還是有沒有關係這個我想這個都不會是困難的那個委員非常清楚是就是要有經費行政院的第二億備金怎麼給給一納入好另外就是消防署就請回座署長請回座那這個法大案馬太安這個部落中繼屋這個這個部分上次"},{"start":12523.885,"end":12550.194,"text":"院長 卓院長去聽起這個我們署長的報告之前聽起你的報告之前我們的鄉親馬太安部落特別提出這個集體中紀屋的訴求我也把這個他們的訴求也發文給內政部了你們應該有收到了所以這個署長對於這樣的一個訴求"},{"start":12552.83,"end":12580.92,"text":"目前的進度怎樣跟文跟文報告啦因為我們其實在他們每一次的開會裡面我們都已經有有我們的同仁都有參與他們的每一次的會議這也是應他們的要求啦所以我們過程當中都會聽他們的最終的訴求而且原民會也都有參與其中那當然最重要的是第一個鄉親要有我們的族人要有一些共識第二個就是說包含地點包含使用的內容"},{"start":12581.479,"end":12603.529,"text":"我們希望他們都能夠明確因為畢竟他跟他們的訴求跟一般我們在興建中紀務的訴求是不同的所以我們也是希望他們能夠討論的更清楚比較知道怎麼樣去協助那現在我知道是他們大概連地點還有需要的這個生活空間好像還沒有定案但是我們同仁一樣持續會參與他們的會議去討論這個署長署長這個部長這個其實會跟這個"},{"start":12610.953,"end":12637.592,"text":"跟這個第一個上面的霸體 是 什麼時候可以解決 第二個這個堤防什麼時候完成加固加高 現在都紓盡了沒有問題了 但是加固加高這個部分按照這個這個經濟部水利署的報告跟院長的報告是明年四月底以前 沒錯 所以這個部分"},{"start":12638.826,"end":12667.049,"text":"所以要去評估啦因為他們的訴求很重要但是你們要怎麼樣讓他知道說其實不用那麼可怕不用那麼擔心這個就要跟誰你們要去聊去跟農業部現在的狀況汐水量已經沒有像之前那麼多了嘛然後這個如果還在潰壩以現在的汐水量在潰壩的話現在的堤防"},{"start":12668.192,"end":12682.04,"text":"現在的輸進是不是可以保全這些部落社區都有關係了都有關係所以這個部分這個要請國土署再辛苦一下最後立法院有做一個附帶決議"},{"start":12684.551,"end":12706.925,"text":"附帶決議因為這現在狀況非常的多元所以因為這個附帶決議有就是也跟那天跟我們我們遇到了比這您提到的這個還多了對包含昨天又來昨天也有其他委員有問到又是一個新的案例但是我們都還是想辦法解決要解決想辦法解決這個都要解決好謝謝"},{"start":12712.685,"end":12718.149,"text":"謝謝我們感謝鄭天才委員執行我們請林柱英委員執行漂亮寶貝來謝謝主席主席我們有請劉世芳劉部長請保重"},{"start":12735.149,"end":12754.417,"text":"部長好今天是內政部的業務專報我有特別看了業務專報的內容那麼我知道其實部長昨天在詢答的時候那麼好多位委員都有特別問到了就是有關於到底這個所謂的假偷渡真滲透到底我們在移民法規當中如何把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":12755.817,"end":12771.085,"text":"那麼其實這一位阮姓中國籍人士跟另外一位張姓的中國籍人士他們所利用的這個漏洞的部分我想就是因為我們現行的法規有所不足在10月29號的時候我在國防外交委員會當時我曾經質詢過這個蔡明彥就是國安局局長當時他的強調就是說因為這是個案"},{"start":12782.751,"end":12786.872,"text":"那每一個個案狀況不一樣但是其實我相信部長現在非常理解就是這兩個個案他起了示範性的作用為什麼呢因為這一位軟性的中國籍人士跟後續媒體在報導的這位張姓的中國籍人士他們不只是利用這個漏洞甚至於在收容期滿之後在"},{"start":12805.476,"end":12826.373,"text":"全國啪啪噪還接受媒體訪問甚至於這個後面這一位張姓的中國籍人士還在抖音小紅書上面示範教學雖然說他現在已經把相關內容撤下來了但是可以看得到這似乎就是變成真的把這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":12828.835,"end":12848.912,"text":"讓中國如果想要滲透台灣的時候找到了另外一個橋門那我其實在這一次我們的業務報告當中我發現31頁當好就是入出國籍移民的相關業務但是可能是時間上來不及啦並沒有把這個部分放進你們年度的所謂報告當中那麼等一下是不是可以請"},{"start":12850.117,"end":12870.797,"text":"部長來特別的來回應一下這個部分另外就是其實本席已經提交了一個就是入出國籍移民法當中的修正案那我在這個修正案當中是特別加入了所謂的就是第二項的第七條第二項的第七款就是明定主管機關如果認為"},{"start":12871.638,"end":12881.525,"text":"有危害國家安全跟社會安定之餘的時候就可以依照相關的規定來修訂第四項也就是說可以針對國安局長蔡明彥所講的所謂的個案針對他們在收容期滿之後是不是可以立刻做出有危害"},{"start":12892.192,"end":12910.411,"text":"國家安全或是國家疑慮的部分那當然這只是本席個人的提案但是我希望這個提案能夠先做一個帶頭所謂拋磚引玉又或者是帶頭的效應我希望內政部移民署能夠緊速的透過修法的方式把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":12912.513,"end":12935.692,"text":"謝謝委員的指教委員所提到假偷渡真滲透確實沒有錯在這次呢我們移民法在有關處理這些收容安置或是替代處分的人出現漏洞那包括院長昨天也特別指示就說這些呢屬於在收容期間在台灣趴趴照甚至可以用社群的網路來推廣一些可能跟國家安全疑慮相關的部分我們要從嚴來禁止"},{"start":12937.974,"end":12961.306,"text":"但是修法確實是一個可以堵漏洞的方向但是這個修法我們當然支持委員所提到的移民法的第38條或者是相關的規範但是我們要跟陸委會的兩岸人民關係條例一起來共同處理這樣子才有可能是因為我們都知道我們境外敵對勢力大致上還是來自於中國境內比較多那其他的收容安置也有其他的外國籍"},{"start":12962.206,"end":12982.633,"text":"外國籍當然也在修法的方向之列所以這個部分呢我想我們會全力來支持而且我們會在短時間之內呢就把入出國移民法會再跟陸委會一起協商之後呢推出這個法案的修正好 謝謝部長的回應這感受到就其實我們真的要把這個漏洞補起來因為就像您所說的本席其實也有提出兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案就是第18條的部分所以說我希望這個配套我們能夠緊速來處理"},{"start":12989.315,"end":12994.517,"text":"把它也列為就是接下來內政部的重點的內容因為其實我知道內政部對於這個有關於入出境的管理的部分當然肩負重任因為這個部分確實如果一旦漏洞已開而且已經達到了這個示範作用的時候我們就要真的要趕快的動起來"},{"start":13008.143,"end":13015.728,"text":"另外一個因為時間有限我要特別來問到有關於就是柬埔寨的部分因為我們知道美國針對這個太子集團的部分當然檢調已經在11月4號已經動起來了但是剛剛我在外交委員會的時候我也特別問了林佳龍部長"},{"start":13025.814,"end":13052.954,"text":"就是有關於我們因為鼓勵新南向或者是希望新南向的朋友能夠到台灣來消費來投資然後來認識台灣來帶動經濟這個當然我們都覺得OK只是我們也都知道有關於打詐的部分現在很多的電影甚至於很多的不只是電影是真實事件當中東南亞國家確實現在就是來自於中國的詐騙集團或者是詐騙混行"},{"start":13054.375,"end":13069.143,"text":"那麼在這個部分就有關於柬埔寨的免簽入出境的部分那麼外交部也認為說他們會做一些修正那麼內政部這裡是不是也會跟外交部來做討論因為我看到您的報告當中其實有特別提到宏觀計畫的部分顯然內政部也有注意到這個相關的問題就是如果東南亞的詐騙高層因為我們可以有一個所謂的免簽的待遇讓他們可以如入無人之境的進出台灣那麼這個是不是我們要必須檢討的部分"},{"start":13083.971,"end":13100.719,"text":"對謝謝委員的指教那個我跟其他委員有提到過這個跟太子集團相關的這些人其實他們進來又出去可是他們當時不一定是提供柬埔寨的這個簽證因為他可能有兩國或三國的身份證那我們會從國家安全的觀點來看有條件式的免簽"},{"start":13102.22,"end":13115.066,"text":"確實是要列入我們在檢討的一個觀點尤其是前奏國際詐騙犯然後在台灣進出好像如入無人之境啊我想這個會讓人覺得說台灣是不是在這個國門洞開那這個部分我們會來加強檢討好謝謝辛苦謝謝感謝林祖英委員執行 林昆禎委員執行"},{"start":13134.273,"end":13138.698,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請劉部長張署長昨天總質詢有問 後來時間到了 這個來不及問完"},{"start":13149.113,"end":13165.449,"text":"我再請教一下因為我們現在獨駕大家都很關心那獨駕因為之前就是因為尿檢這個時間比較長拉人比較長那我們用這個盜交條例又有說這個預兩個月不得舉發那就這方面的話你們是不是有跟這個交通部來研議建議這個延長舉報的這個時間"},{"start":13167.951,"end":13175.454,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個現在的這個舉發時間就是確定之後兩個月舉發那我們現在之前是移送移送之後就再兩個月舉發但是這個時間是可能拖太長可能會落失舉發時間那現在是以檢驗報告出來開始起算兩個月這個依照大家來做舉發檢驗報告出來第一天出來開始起算兩個月那現在從開始"},{"start":13197.262,"end":13206.986,"text":"我們潮澳道的獨家案件我們從案件就從開始管制所以現在不會說不會說漏掉不會有這個情況進行從這個檢驗報告出來開始起算兩個又是哪時候開始的"},{"start":13211.343,"end":13237.354,"text":"就是檢定報告 給我們通知那一天道交條例之前是規定說是你那時候道交條例之前沒有做這樣的一個規範就是說移送之後 移送之後兩個月所以你這個算法是從哪時候開始的應該是在前大概前三四個月我們已經有跟交通部有做這樣的一個確認的一個這樣的執行方式所以現在的案件的管制不會有漏掉的情形"},{"start":13238.815,"end":13254.6,"text":"禁案這個只要是獨駕那就從告發的單位包括移辦那檢驗回來到偵查隊馬上會通知給這個交通單位請署長給我一個資料就是今年1月到10月你們獨駕的依公共危險罪移送的案件有幾件"},{"start":13255.4,"end":13269.496,"text":"這個部分我們資料再提供給我們然後這個舉報了有幾件那因為現在尿檢還是實驗比較久那所以你們現在有一個用那個唾液嘛對不對就是唾液的快篩劑我看你們現在都在演練了嘛然後我昨天有問部長然後現在就是說現在"},{"start":13273.74,"end":13301.182,"text":"法治的公告期就是交通部的公告期就是舉發的流程的10月20號進行預告期14天有可能是在中月下旬月底就可以實施10月底就正式實施3分鐘就知道有沒有馬上也馬上會知道就是一檢測就會知道它是不是指於毒品的反應就好像四季一樣那偽陽性的比例呢"},{"start":13302.233,"end":13323.083,"text":"我想這個部分世界各國都在做這樣的一個世界各國的這個所以基本上是應該是沒有什麼這個問題可是我看你們那個四季才12,545劑那我們到目前為止差不多有五千多件那現在一萬兩千多件可以用九個月那我們四季會隨時再購買那不過這個的這個四季是多少錢大概多少錢"},{"start":13328.292,"end":13349.32,"text":"我們再了解那現在這個世紀就是說脫移的世紀我們是類為各縣市政府警察局的這個他們地方政府那你們怎麼分佈啊怎麼分配啊我們會依照那個這個有關個人口這個有關像新北人口最多他會分到多少應該會分比較多一點但是他地方也大你再分出去這個隨時都是我們會做"},{"start":13352.541,"end":13370.828,"text":"那地方政府自己可以採購嗎可以自己採購我剛剛講的就是未來就地方政府就是要自己採購好那可是這個上四年代的一脫名字是不是沒辦法測出來沒辦法怎樣用那個唾液試劑試出來可以測出來可以一脫名字也可以嗎這應該是試劑可以偷測因為我之前看報導說一脫名字他沒有辦法確定可以嗎"},{"start":13375.243,"end":13388.632,"text":"我買的四季應該可以撤出可以 還要確定可以對 好 好 OK好 那署長請回那這個我們再請這個那部長請回我請這個國土署的署長來問一下社宅是來 署長這個我看你們這個資料裡面三重有五個這個社會住宅跟我們這個中央有關的"},{"start":13405.583,"end":13430.801,"text":"無辜好事A 富貴好事都已經興建好了也準備要招租了然後現在有三個一個是無辜好事B 重新好事 人意好事那都是在這個今年有決標無辜好事B更早決標那現在就這五個地方嘛是不是那這個已經有決標的部分的話那是不是確定可以開始蓋了"},{"start":13431.513,"end":13455.413,"text":"沒錯沒錯有決標的都一定會蓋好那現在就是五處嘛那除了這五處之外還有沒有可能再新增加三重的社會住宅我們目前來講是沒有但是如果市府要的話因為我們已經把盡可能盤出來的地都盡量盤還有一塊啊那個是在那個永德段啊永德段那個新北市政府他們已經變更了"},{"start":13456.113,"end":13482.463,"text":"本來是屬於這個我們的國防部的用地然後呢他現在已經把它變更成機關及社會福利設施用地了還有這一塊啊而且這一塊面積是1.5公頃如果蓋好的話可以提供一千戶左右的社會住宅這塊有落實掉了嗎應該沒有那麼多這個部分我來了解我是說有這一塊地但是目前遇到一些問題署長知道嗎可能我們來了解看市政府這邊"},{"start":13483.399,"end":13503.213,"text":"是不是有提出來什麼樣的一個需求你在看署長好像不太知道這一塊那你去了解一下因為這一塊其實已經那個變更基地已經變更了我知道我知道是舊有的那一塊就原有的那一塊那個在就在那個在中正北路上對對對對對這一塊有印象因為當時是因為外面那一個綠地"},{"start":13507.031,"end":13522.465,"text":"有一個綠地的問題還有一些私有但不多私有不多因為住入中心有架構要去進行架構這個你來了解一下然後給我回報一下進度好不好因為地方有這個需求因為當時後來因為那個綠地要進出的那個問題太大因為"},{"start":13524.747,"end":13541.201,"text":"當時連新北市政府的那個城鄉局的都市設計都覺得那一塊綠地要作為進出口困難度很高那所以當時有問題有困難我們試著去解決啊好那既然有這麼大一塊地的話那當然它是有綠地那可是現在也那個"},{"start":13541.775,"end":13564.513,"text":"那個地木也變根了嘛因為那塊地木很早就變但是因為後來要執行的時候就發現那個綠地要做出口太難了解一下然後也跟我說明一下問題在哪裡要怎麼去解決那能不能在這幾年來開始來動工好不好好因為畢竟那一塊是三重最最後一塊能拿到比較大面積土地的地方好OK好謝謝"},{"start":13570.07,"end":13575.673,"text":"謝謝感謝李崑禎委員執行我們家林德武委員執行謝謝主席是不是請這個劉部長還有警政署張署長還有吳署長吳署長"},{"start":13597.915,"end":13619.537,"text":"我想首先我先問吳署長很簡單的題目就是因為永和有一個行政園區那我也跟吳署長聯絡過好多次那我剛剛有問裡面你們去查現在就是因為永和那個公所還有呼稱事務所分局包括國務紀念館"},{"start":13621.099,"end":13644.646,"text":"都是超過50年以上是那其實要辦一個公辦的行政園區的都更那我剛剛是有特別問說為什麼那麼多省了那麼多字為什麼沒有都好像沒有什麼進展那我是要問吳署長說到底你們那個都更住宅區可以商業區可以行政園區可不可以都更"},{"start":13645.696,"end":13660.233,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子其實我們也審了三次那因為也一直告訴他因為最主要第一個你行政園區以後如果還要作為可出售的住宅使用的話其實在委員會來講是相對比較困難第二個就是說因為"},{"start":13663.666,"end":13688.516,"text":"他的基地條件你也知道就在竹林路跟國光路交叉口那邊的道路路幅也不寬但是市府要把容積率大幅提高到500那產生的這個容積面積會太大所以委員一直有顧慮那他們一直到10月2號才送最新就隔了一年了他們再送新的版本來那這一次有調降把容積率再調降 那個交通衝擊評估"},{"start":13689.963,"end":13708.141,"text":"有在重做那所以這個部分我們也會安排在下個月會開始來審查這樣我只不過是要了解一下說到底他為什麼那麼多次都沒有進展對因為中間有幾個困難點那這樣我了解謝謝阿署長你請回來我現在來請警政署署長跟內政部署長那個"},{"start":13710.322,"end":13728.731,"text":"因為打詐儀表板顯示這個114年1到10月民眾通報這個整個財產損失的金額高達762億元那我請問內政部是否需要修法來提高這個詐騙的處罰你認為有沒有需要"},{"start":13729.218,"end":13735.881,"text":"我個人認為有需要因為去年這個打造中華企業才通過我們經過這個奇端的這個觀察覺得就是有一些詐騙的這個金額我們當時如果說比500萬的話大概就算到"},{"start":13744.824,"end":13772.644,"text":"三到十年嘛如果一大概五年到十二年那我们觉得这个金额可以往下降就是用重罚的方式来做一个重罚我认为没有用那个一警政署你是不是觉得这个警察的努力侦办侦办这些这个查集的诈欺问题是判刑过轻嘛让诈团交保以后甚至于他要继续作案因为你判刑太轻了啊"},{"start":13773.204,"end":13798.633,"text":"那就是說這個法的這個刑度就是要定高那因為有下限跟有下限跟上限所以有時候就是判刑的結果有些是不符人民的期待因為確實那個詐騙你看很多家庭因為這樣受詐到最後甚至於母女都走入絕路甚至於很多人他受不了就走上絕路"},{"start":13799.073,"end":13807.726,"text":"我們也希望這個造房條例請委員支持我們絕對支持啦我認為這個要重判甚至於我認為再加邊刑我跟你講這個只要加邊刑那個不是人權的問題啦我跟你講那些都是保護壞人啦"},{"start":13815.256,"end":13842.103,"text":"普化現金一萬元從今天開始要依照身份證字號的尾數進行分流來上網登記最慢明年4月30都可以登記領取那有許多銀行也推出一些加碼抽獎的活動本期是提醒內政部跟警政署165的反詐騙要從源頭封鎖要封鎖可疑的這些網站或帳號避免民眾受騙上當"},{"start":13843.163,"end":13864.516,"text":"委員這個部分就是官方的這個帳號只有1萬點擊分點擊其他的帳號都是自繳的這個我們如果巡邏發現到這個一定會下交貨解析對啊我認為這個很重要我們會從源頭來處理數位發展部在搞什麼我真的看不懂其實那個部分一點功能都沒有"},{"start":13865.616,"end":13880.098,"text":"我們是針對問題喔 今天是要解決問題啊對 我們會從源頭來...數位發展部一開始花了兩百多億結果 欸 越炸越嚴重老百姓是很憤怒啦 政府要有作為啊喔 署長 保證你的選法勒"},{"start":13885.724,"end":13909.637,"text":"包括我們最近一個案例就是一個車手因為車手都是判刑太輕有的時候是根據他拿到兩千塊就給他判個三個月甚至緩刑但是現在有個車手被判了12年那是法官判的所以表示說我們炸房條例裡面要重罰這個部分我們完全支持我認為說你們提出來我相信我們立法院每個同仁絕對會力挺支持"},{"start":13910.177,"end":13933.056,"text":"因為你那個等於是縱容上次我看到他那個引渡回來結果下了飛機全部都放掉歷歷在目對不對我認為這是很嚴重的問題而且你看台灣現在變成詐騙王國很可憐很悲哀我們希望站在就是維護公權力的立場"},{"start":13933.957,"end":13945.907,"text":"署長也好部長也好一定要嚴苛的該增加刑期該增加判包括那些車手都不能放啦我認為要加重啦謝謝謝謝我們感謝林德夫委員質詢我們現在徐屋奎委員質詢"},{"start":13962.954,"end":13988.466,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們劉部長還有消防署的蕭署長請保定請消防署長委員好部長好署長部長我想我們這個台灣我們都不希望發生這個重大的這個災難但是一旦遇到天災的時候這個除了我們的這個消防搜救人員之外我想這個我們的搜救權也扮演一個很重要的一個角色部長認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":13990.657,"end":14005.815,"text":"當然因為搜救犬它的功能非常的大而且全世界都認同李湘在我們第一線他們真的是扮演很關鍵的一個尤其我們最近這個花蓮的事件我們也找到一個幾個小朋友都靠搜救犬的努力對那個小朋友六歲的小朋友"},{"start":14006.257,"end":14026.863,"text":"但是因為這邊我也要幫搜救犬這個要給他拖一個眼睛部長我們過去這個屏東縣有8隻搜救犬一年的預算13萬多但是因為這個包含飼料也好注射也好訓練器材也好這真的不夠因為屏東縣政府我們的裁員真的有限那尤其明年裁劃完之後我還怕40幾年"},{"start":14028.664,"end":14036.958,"text":"部長針對面臨這個不是只有屏東好幾個縣市都面臨這樣一個困境部長這個可不可以做一個專款的一個補助機制由中央來統籌"},{"start":14039.492,"end":14061.581,"text":"我們來研究一下因為那個委員現在提出來第一個我們當然會支持這個方向但是需要多少經費可能要細算才會知道要盤點一下對如果是消防署可以容納的部分我們當然會樂觀其成但是如果太高恐怕還是要地方政府因為屏東縣政府當然是他的財政的這個比例比較低一點"},{"start":14062.441,"end":14073.536,"text":"但是你说像台北市或新北市的话可能就比较不需要但是全国的搜救犬对对对所以我想这个部分是不是给我们一点时间我们来检讨一下看怎么样来协助"},{"start":14074.042,"end":14102.851,"text":"部長因為我知道像我很多的好朋友 他們自己在做一鍋生意都主動每個月都捐款來幫這些這個搜救犬要吃了給他們吃 因為那個錢不夠開啦 包含我們的消防隊員也都自掏腰包也很多啊我想這個是要列一個很重要的一個議題 讓我們這個消防這個搜救犬也要給他們一個很驕傲的一個環境啦 這樣好不好那另外那個署長請問 接著請那個國家公園署王署長還有我們新上任的許書國許署長"},{"start":14112.505,"end":14132.803,"text":"我想這個國家工業署的升格我們都樂觀其成尤其署長是第一任的國家工業署的署長署長這個過去也是都在訓練毫不介顧這次再度這個獎勵來擔任署長但是這個這是一個榮耀也是一個重責大任我想過去這個部長"},{"start":14135.185,"end":14152.335,"text":"肯定國家公園它有它的這個是我們台灣第一座的國家公園有一定的歷史定位那過去我們在生態保育這塊做得很好但是隨著時空時代變遷時空背景不一樣我想除了生態之外我們觀光的發展應該也是要並重啊"},{"start":14153.342,"end":14176.942,"text":"我相信過去墾丸處被人家詬病的就是 關了太多 還沒摘到關動物所以現在造成米穂也好 梅花鹿 造成我們的農作物有夠嚴重署長 針對這個部分你有什麼看法是 給委員報告那個梅花鹿我們真的是保育得很好所以現在目前其實數量"},{"start":14177.406,"end":14189.322,"text":"在那個整個恆春派島事實上這個數量事實上是有超過一些啦當然對於農作物這邊也有一些有一些跑到我們的農民那我們每一年事實上除了"},{"start":14190.838,"end":14210.218,"text":"還是要加強這個微補還有加強那個整個呼籲區的一個誘引誘導他到呼籲區進來另外針對於對農民那個農作物的一個損害的話我們都有一個補償那最近這幾年大概數量也不是很多一年大概是平均大概四件到五件的一個"},{"start":14211.019,"end":14215.163,"text":"容損的一個補償我想我們會持續來監控數據有點失真吧應該不止吧那個112年是比較多有十幾件那最近這兩年確實是件數會少一點那我跟委員報告"},{"start":14226.028,"end":14251.029,"text":"我今年開始已經有編一些預算我們作為監控的部分會再強力來監控會再委託那也跟平科大這邊的陳教授這邊來做一個決議的這一塊的一個研發然後來看看能不能來控制這個數量這個除了農損之外其實因為部長我跟您報告一下因為過去每天都在我們的公路也跑來跑去串來串去"},{"start":14251.516,"end":14264.085,"text":"也造成很多的交通事故我想要怎麼樣去做一個有效的一個防範可能還是要找出一些對策阿高的部分 破壞性更大我們的紅龍果 黑豆都吃得沒辦法真的非常的嚴重其實我上任的時候有跟農業部相關的單位都有開會討論過我們也是共同大家兩個部會共同來討論怎麼去來控制這個數量"},{"start":14278.902,"end":14305.934,"text":"另外我想還有一個很重要的議題要請部長幫忙因為過去部長有去過墾丁應該你都很熟的嘛那因為過去我們墾丁國家公園一年過去都好幾百萬人次啊現在為什麼這幾年沒有恢復回來我想除了這個當然我們的觀光消費這是一個另外一個議題但是我自己去了熊馬展示館或者去沙島我們這些設備都很古啊都沒有維修那墾丁過去經費不足"},{"start":14307.762,"end":14321.051,"text":"我想這個新上任的處長應該要針對這些的我們的自己的展示館怎麼做生態教育 怎麼樣做環境維護應該要有一些新的想法 不能都這麼熟成部長願不願意支持我們的案子"},{"start":14322.381,"end":14343.119,"text":"那個如果你很肯定處長的話要不要讓他講一下他的想法好不好謝謝委員我想球馬展示館其實對恆春半島的一個一個貢獻其實是非常大的因為早期恆春"},{"start":14344.349,"end":14358.515,"text":"主要是以生產球馬為主所以帶動很多的經濟所以我們在那邊設了一個展示館最主要是希望能夠把這樣的一個早期的一個經濟活動能夠有一些歷史的一些回顧那當然因為球馬展示館"},{"start":14360.816,"end":14370.22,"text":"我們是沿用以前那個試驗所的一些房設所以是比較老舊的那可是周邊所以這個部分我們會編列經費來做重新的一個規劃那包括停車場旁邊的一個空地我們希望能夠配合目前國人的一個油氣習慣來規劃一些露營區來帶動那個地方的一個發展"},{"start":14388.832,"end":14417.219,"text":"這個我想你們再看一下你們自己的那個數據一年200多萬的遊客你們把海生館一年將近100萬放進來靠著這100萬你們剩多少人你們看一下你們自己的數據就很清楚了真的要有新的作為新的創新新的環境新的設備新的做法我想帶動這個不是只有做生態觀光發展應該要並重這個是我對新處長的期待未來還有更多事情我會再找處長再談一下好謝謝是好謝謝委員"},{"start":14418.064,"end":14421.486,"text":"謝謝我們感謝徐富奎委員質詢我們請謝榮介委員質詢你好嗨"},{"start":14441.121,"end":14466.634,"text":"等一下 等一下補充還沒叫還沒請你來看他今天要叫什麼啦他今天會臨時啦 讚你這樣就對了像我一天說請補充然後他就趕快處理了沒關係啦 一天一天今天這時候今天的問題我現在主席我請補充跟...請到補充請到補充請到補充"},{"start":14472.097,"end":14475.358,"text":"委員你好 保長你好 蘇長好 早上好這個幾年到今年啊我們來進步這個蘇維新聞局這個案件已經付多少錢了保長 備億 付備億 付備億請保長 林友聰開記者會前給我們督促"},{"start":14502.111,"end":14506.652,"text":"哇 十幾個我開兩月八千萬就合計了你看你現在說已經付八下去了這八個還不包括我們機械我們買的嘛我們機械的倒立就三月九千幾萬是不是倒立 你說本來是東元電機的部分嗎沒有沒有 那機械我們另外出一枚喔是"},{"start":14531.963,"end":14552.495,"text":"那是這樣啊 這樣不然你可能比較不清楚啦 我覺得說 不能把雙數當成比數來辦 不要這樣啊 改當 我們合計就合計 改當倍倍 那就是屬性嘛 是不然你去說到說什麼 我開兩月八千萬就隆重把這事情解決啦 不想要把我們省十幾億 你聽到沒有 屬性不是啊這錢都開了 你幾年多 還負擬多少錢 幾年多 還負擬 賠償也沒算啊 兩月八千萬沒算啦"},{"start":14561.226,"end":14576.476,"text":"你再付他多少錢 他說要維持多少的運轉嘛 機械這樣子 我們這邊的資訊啦就是代支付的部分加上以支付9.38所以9.38扣掉8.02的話 應該是1.321.361.36幾萬就對了對 連勞 還有加上政策中止的話 還會有11億多11億多"},{"start":14598.952,"end":14617.22,"text":"這個案件如果中止就對了,我們還要付多少錢3億多但是如果沒有中止就對了,我們每一年都要付多少錢沒有中止如果還沒中止前,我們現在為了這個機械的低度運轉"},{"start":14618.619,"end":14642.711,"text":"我可不可以請市長跟您回應一下好不好是 跟委員報告 因為現在有關中運廠的部分我們大概每年會針對折舊的部分編列4800萬所以每年要付4800萬 只有每年每年嘛 每一年嘛對 那個設備折舊的部分那最低維運的 好 沒關係啦去年 我請教 這樣這件案件他一定會說的"},{"start":14644.465,"end":14659.413,"text":"裴樂夫人也有責兵 阿婆要娶幾個妻子 又負責很多同時林博東告訴我們他開了兩個八千萬 都跟事情解決了我想 老博東你是不會用這種態度來面對事情我個人對你的理解像這個博東跟經營書中這個詐騙書中很可笑 台灣坦白說這個查拉布的科技比我們進步更快"},{"start":14676.687,"end":14692.594,"text":"詐騙現在已經蛻變到什麼程度 你知道嗎三合一啊 你知道嗎 我們這個民意代表的服務處不斷接觸到這個事情 現在多惡劣現在聽說大眾這些人都專行啊 不用怕得怕穿啊都專去用騙的比較快的不然有沒有這個趨勢有 我們現在發現大概有這個趨勢好 來詐騙"},{"start":14705.286,"end":14729.744,"text":"線上博弈地下錢莊變成三合一這個事情你知道嗎知道你知道因為這個本來都是結合在一起的這都結合在一起的我每次我問起來差不多大家毫無阻攏他去線上博弈省三萬現在再來叫五萬他叫一個人叫他叫一個 要再生理學現在要討這條錢 叫另外一個叫他五萬變八萬 八萬變十六萬"},{"start":14737.379,"end":14744.845,"text":"我想這個都是複合式的犯罪那就是詐欺博弈洗錢這個是多結合在一起的"},{"start":14745.868,"end":14750.232,"text":"我們現在抓大概都是也是在抓這樣的一個不是只有單一的這都複合式的犯罪包括抓詐欺也可以抓到這個地下錢莊也抓到洗錢的就水房的這個嘛那如果這樣被害者讓他騙了啊簽的這線上有本票有什麼這樣這錢要怎麼省"},{"start":14774.13,"end":14788.421,"text":"那像這些大概就是說這個他這個被害的這個狀況大概我們會有幾個方式這個貸款會不會成立啦他敢不要真的去面對這兩三百萬一兩百萬四五百萬的債務這個應該不是我們的範疇可能要法律上來做一個界定啦要調查才能界定我是希望說經濟署在辦這些案件的時候"},{"start":14800.612,"end":14808.916,"text":"因為這重來卡到訴訟 訴訟就卡到這個被害人要去卡臨這個責罰所以你這個部分如果是在那個詐騙的流程把這裡都有執行 甚至連你提供的司法保障這個我們一定會提供有可能這個被害者他就不用負擔那麼多不然我告訴你這裡差好多人你把他挖整個 你把他挖整天犯債 要跟你拖"},{"start":14830.892,"end":14841.025,"text":"對於這些被害的整個狀況的陳述或者是證物的這個呈現我們一定會完備來做一個整備來提供給檢方來做一個"},{"start":14846.237,"end":14850.319,"text":"跟經濟事務表達就是說 你辦案過程結案之後 以上的時候一定要把這個寫下去然後給被害人認得在訴訟的過程 法官可以給你免除這個不同的節目好不好好 沒問題"},{"start":14876.153,"end":14882.639,"text":"感謝謝龍捷委員職訓我們家習新英委員職訓謝謝主席我們請劉部長請補充"},{"start":14897.092,"end":14920.72,"text":"徐委員好部長好不知道前面有沒有委員在詢問有關這個自然人憑證的這個部分我們看到內政部的報告宣稱推動多元申辦管道自然人憑證呢有效卡這個超過6就是發卡好406萬張你滿意這個成果嗎部長"},{"start":14924.642,"end":14942.454,"text":"當然不滿意因為我們全台灣的人口沒有這麼少不滿意那有再檢討嗎有再檢討那我接著我們再看一下自然人憑證的使用人次到今年今年我看到的數據到7月"},{"start":14944.369,"end":14960.071,"text":"为止就今年度7月为止总共使用了7850万次但是去年113年在同一期它的使用次数是2亿"},{"start":14961.636,"end":14988.846,"text":"等於是2.09億次我們看到這個使用率在今年就去年到今年一年內急速下降近乎雪崩請問部長這個是不是一個警訊還有這個問題應該不是可能我們有一些限制不我請司長跟你回應一下這樣子你們知道原因是跟委員說明一下就是說自然憑證有分兩種一個是晶片卡自然憑證一個是行動的是手機的憑證"},{"start":14990.406,"end":15019.466,"text":"雖然今年的使用次數稍微減少不是稍微 雪崩對 但是我們借機的系統數已經從原來的900多的系統數增加到現在的1330個系統數所以說它雖然使用的次數降低但是它每一個使用的次數都是在做線上的數位簽章數位簽章就是所謂的電子簽章法個人意識的表達"},{"start":15020.627,"end":15037.822,"text":"虽然是说使用的次数有减少但是它的大部分都是在做数位欠张而且我们这个都是过去的统计的数量这因为是疫情的关系所以使用的次数当初有最高峰的时候每年可以达到3.6"},{"start":15038.863,"end":15064.632,"text":"意志 仁慈好了 這樣浪費我太多時間了我講的就是去年跟今年比我們看到雪崩式的這種下降我再講一個就是說我們114年累計核發的自然人憑證是超過了1049萬張但是有效期限內的只有406萬是你們報告裡面寫的"},{"start":15067.478,"end":15075.483,"text":"所以換句話說這個有效的比率是38%那這顯示出什麼部長你回答你覺得這顯示出什麼你累計發出了1049萬張可是有效期限內到目前只有406萬張等於只有38%不到四成的人"},{"start":15091.212,"end":15115.426,"text":"他愿意续用你觉得这显示出什么我们当然不会以这样的数目字为满足可是委员可以听所以你知道民众的决定就是他们不想用不续办不好用但是问题它是代表一个政府在处理事情的公正跟公信能力那这个部分表示说我们在服务品质上是有提升只是它的数量是下降的"},{"start":15115.826,"end":15138.227,"text":"那既然数量下降的话我们朝着数量怎么样增加会比较好那因为我们很少去外面做这样的一个宣导或宣传对啊 为什么不宣导我后面也确实要讲所以您也知道多支持我们预算让我们做煤宣啊我们煤宣去年被砍掉三成以上几乎什么样子的功能都没有办法处理不要只有讲砍因为你们福边"},{"start":15139.308,"end":15165.908,"text":"这个增加了这么多所以我们才等于说准结经费你还是有得宣传嘛那所以在这边我们要继续讲这表示你的自然人凭证对民众缺乏吸引力而且便利性不足嘛所以大家才不用可是我们也看到每年我们内政部有关这个自然人凭证的这个作业及管理费用一年也要四千万左右"},{"start":15166.588,"end":15194.771,"text":"你这个系统一直在维护可是你却没有办法让民众爱用这点就是我们政府要加强的我想部长也很认同所以我们未来继续来加强我们不能发卡千万张然后六成不续办那这样子就表示我们这个产品的便利性出了问题那接着本席再请教部长部长您是否了解在报税这件事上民众最爱用的"},{"start":15195.612,"end":15221.345,"text":"方式是什么 用什么来报税用手机会是最方便我听到司长讲 司长你很了解就是行动电话认证 对不对对 然后这第一名它有356万件第二名是健保卡加密码所以你看民众宁可用手机手机方便我们带着就算它健保卡加密码都比我们自然人凭证多"},{"start":15222.265,"end":15236.45,"text":"所以這一塊部長剛剛有講宣導跟推廣其實你除了宣導你推廣很多時候你這個推廣不是上對下而是你要真正有效的請問你們目標客群到底是誰你有沒有設定好"},{"start":15237.185,"end":15252.006,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們自然憑證是根據ISO29115的標準所以才達到EOL至少Level3的標準那這個健保卡跟那個行動號碼是沒有"},{"start":15253.325,"end":15277.154,"text":"不要再講這個重點是我們要怎麼樣更便民讓民眾愛用你講的沒錯你這個ISO它非常的嚴謹而且我們等於是這個比較安全你的意思是這樣那既然安全民眾都不用然後你都讓民眾去用那個不安全的這點就是我們要加強的我們現在在推手機及憑證就是手機上面就是憑證"},{"start":15278.735,"end":15301.396,"text":"因為晶片憑證上面就要去臨櫃去申請要250塊他們手機憑證只要30塊所以我們希望在一個會期半年後我們可以看到能夠有成果很快的本席要再請教部長少子高齡化已經是國安的危機所以本席想請教劉部長現在國籍法的修法我們"},{"start":15302.881,"end":15327.181,"text":"这个认为是引进心血留住人才的关键那部长您皱了眉头是怎么样这个国籍法的修正草案现在有没有最新进度我们内政部不是有在演你国籍法的部分我们目前都是采取的管理机制大概就是以中华民国国民的身份证件这样的一个处理方向"},{"start":15327.701,"end":15353.485,"text":"但是您剛有串聯到說是少子化跟高齡化我就比較不清楚少子化跟高齡化跟國籍法有什麼關係請委員再明示一下我們指的就是我們人才還有我們有一些心血您的幕僚有在跟您說明現在我主要要問的是我們內政部對國籍法的修法是不是現在有在進行"},{"start":15354.67,"end":15371.562,"text":"都没有目前没有收到行政院的指示所以我们并没有朝这方向那如果委员提到是有关劳动力所以完全没有着手进行如果您提到有关劳动力的揽财的部分的话大致上是放在我们的移民署方面所以不是在我们这不是国籍法"},{"start":15372.489,"end":15392.206,"text":"那我们内政部也没有针对我们人才类别还有数量都没有移民的部分就是说如果您讲的是外国的移民到台湾来的话会规划回来的规划是在国际法但是如果是揽财的部分第一个是国发会还有揽财专法"},{"start":15394.228,"end":15407.322,"text":"所以我问的是国籍法你刚刚不是说规划是负责规划但是规划第一个就是他要么就是婚姻移民要么就是他的小孩规划取得国籍的这个方式"},{"start":15408.604,"end":15426.312,"text":"那所以我想了解我們這個現行的規劃程序常常被反映非常的冗長那財力證明還有等規定對弱勢移民不友善那我們請問你們有掌握最近三年規劃案件的平均審查時間是多久嗎"},{"start":15428.017,"end":15452.828,"text":"如果相關的文件齊備我們其實會很快就核准很快是不是還是你會後提供好不好近三年規劃案件平均審查的時間所以現在針對這一個部分我們沒有在修國籍法目前沒有沒有好 沒關係那我們這個之後再找你們相關單位討論好 謝謝"},{"start":15457.26,"end":15469.41,"text":"謝謝 感謝習星雲委員接受我們現在何欣淳何欣淳委員不在我們現在吳宗憲委員質詢好 謝謝 麻煩部長請保定委員好"},{"start":15481.884,"end":15510.343,"text":"部長你好部長我想我就直接開始我的論述那部長我想請問一下目前我們國家的狀況我來講國家其實不能夠說有事我們就找警察然後警察現在來跟我們談一些退休待遇的時候那這時候好像又說不關我的事你一方面卡著人家的錢然後說再補發一方面又說再補發其實這不是治理這只是嚴重的失職其實是你當一個警校的大家長我覺得這個其實是"},{"start":15510.903,"end":15538.216,"text":"您應該去問問看基層他們心裡的想法那全區部還有人總上個月我沒有問你問題全區部還有人總上個月來內政委員會其實報告的非常的清楚那包括適用的對象系統建制計算還有待遇的調整那都在你們五次跨部會協調會議裡面陸續定案那全區部也有提到替代率的上限還有隨那個本縫調整等等的規則而且有負責這些資訊的建制好那我想請教部長"},{"start":15539.717,"end":15564.78,"text":"那這些是你們開會都確認過的對不對我們在五次的協商會議呢都是有派員過去參加好謝謝那我想請問一下既然都已經有派員過去那顯必你們一定對於這個會議很清楚那我想請教一下那對於提高退休金資格的適用對象目前是不是已經有明確的名單了請問部長大概多少人"},{"start":15567.332,"end":15589.323,"text":"三萬八千多人有三萬八千多人對不起詳細的那個名單我是不是請署長跟委員報告一下沒有我只說有沒有明確的名單的嘛你是說人數是吧不是人數有沒有名單誰可以當然有啊名單就是有三萬八千多名好有就是有每個人是誰可以領誰會你們有名單的嘛好那現在是這樣就是說"},{"start":15591.224,"end":15614.821,"text":"我想上個月16號我們的牛許廷委員他其實有質詢過那其實有表示9月就已經完成名單的清冊所以這個一定有那我想請教一下部長那可不可以開放讓個人去查詢他屬不屬於自己屬不屬於名單的範圍內我說他個人不可能讓他查別人可不可以讓他個人去查詢他自己是不是屬於名單的範圍內"},{"start":15616.002,"end":15633.039,"text":"報告委員這個是全序部的系統不是由內政部來主管所以必須要有全序部你們有去開會啊 不行這個跟各自相關的話我們還是要在分工上面做比較好的處理所以這個不歸你們管不是 我們的權限不是不歸我們 報告委員"},{"start":15633.539,"end":15662.049,"text":"那你有沒有去問嘛你有沒有去爭取因為你是警消的大家長那這些警察消防他們到底有沒有這個他可以很多人都問到底自己屬不屬於那個範圍內很多人說他搞不清楚那搞不清楚你不能叫小警員去問全區部說請全區部回答嘛他一定是透過內政部來去請教這件事啊那你現在不能說這個是全區部的事不關我的事那你要當他大家長還是當他小弟一個簡單的只要是警察官退休的都是"},{"start":15663.228,"end":15686.475,"text":"那是不是 這個就是很明確 你是屬於人家只有適用的這只是警察官退休的那這樣啦 就是警察官退休這樣子啦 我們不能夠籠統的講啦我跟你說再嚴謹的這種標準都會有一些很偏離職的一些人他搞不清楚自己到底屬不屬於所以是不是可以麻煩你們協調權需部至少能夠讓"},{"start":15687.535,"end":15703.388,"text":"這些人可以稍微查一下他到底是不是範圍內那我再請教一下部長那你們現在都在講說等釋憲結果嘛那我先不姑且不論釋憲這個事情對或不對啦我請教一下如果釋憲說合憲那你們是馬上"},{"start":15704.369,"end":15722.351,"text":"下個月就一次補足嗎是這樣子做嗎就是編列預算的進度到哪裡去我們會追溯會追溯還是一次給足沒有會追溯按照原來的發放辦法我也知道追溯追溯的方式是一次給足還是分期請教部長"},{"start":15723.132,"end":15737.349,"text":"你是說以前欠的部分嗎因為未來他按月或者是按他的那個年限是另外一回事你說以前的部分不是啊 我們三四月就通過的法案嘛我知道 我知道委員的意思那你的回溯是一次補足還是分期還給他嘛你要跟我講我的問題這麼簡單"},{"start":15739.091,"end":15761.501,"text":"我的問題就這麼簡單如果你連這個都不知道顯然你就是配合著卓榮泰在那邊不發嘛如果有想要發的話因為你的問題我不了解啊如果你可以把問題講得很清楚我就會清楚的回應你不能說無線上告是政治性的操作你只跟我說我會回溯還給人民但是呢回溯一次給還是分次給你到現在還沒有"},{"start":15761.661,"end":15782.902,"text":"那預算如何編列我們就按照預算編列的方式處理所以你看你到現在你都還搞不清楚編列預算也是你們的事情編列預算也是你們的事你不要在那邊騙人民那沒有問題我們按照大院通過的預算處理程序我們按照大院通過的預算程序來處理離岸歷史是我一直以來覺得非常厲害的地方但這個地方你搞不清楚就搞不清楚"},{"start":15783.302,"end":15801.135,"text":"你不知道一次給還是分次給我們要了解程序是什麼一定有一定的SOP我們絕對不會欺負我們退職的警察人員沒有再說清楚就是在騙這些人還是你最後要拖給藍白亂三一算還是你要像之前你的習慣我沒錢就沒錢啊你以前不是曾經講過這句話我沒錢就沒錢嘛租金貼的時候你就這樣講會不會到時候你就一句話講"},{"start":15807.6,"end":15819.948,"text":"最後我想我今天請部長承諾兩件事情我知道你零壓歷史沒關係我非常佩服你這一點我想承諾你兩件事第一個公告追溯補回的SOP我希望你能夠公告對於這些錢誰能領何時算怎麼算怎麼發何時到誰負責這個事情麻煩你們能夠公告清楚第二個"},{"start":15828.707,"end":15857.526,"text":"開放權力能夠這個協助他們能夠對這名冊的查詢啦我想基層要的是這個啦我跟你講你不能讓錦霄在第一線流汗然後你們在預算上面就耍爛不能這樣我跟你講真正對於錦霄的感謝不是口號是帳戶到帳對他們的尊敬也不是掌聲啦是待遇到位啦你沒有帳戶到帳沒有待遇到位你都是在騙人啦所以我今天我就麻煩你們"},{"start":15858.647,"end":15881.161,"text":"你連今天告訴我合憲之後是一次給他還是分期給他那就大院通過的程序怎麼處理我們按照程序來處理啊把這件事放心上我真的不相信這是行政立法要一起努力的我跟你講啦這些人對政府甚至有公法上請求權可以提告的他提告之後怎麼辦國家只要憋一堆預算又要去請律師我們尊重"},{"start":15882.227,"end":15900.114,"text":"好啦 沒關係啦 你沒有解決到問題啦那我剛麻煩你們齁 做到的那兩項公道麻煩你們能夠做到齁 協助這些第一層我們會來協調但是前面的部分的SOB還是一樣要尊重大院的立法院的立法程序 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝吳仲憲委員質詢我們請吳立法委員質詢"},{"start":15915.446,"end":15922.493,"text":"謝謝主席 再次有請部長然後消防署長委員好 部長好我先謝謝因為像之前花家殺颱風的時候大家都在關注花蓮顏色湖"},{"start":15939.468,"end":15960.073,"text":"那麼在台東物路力道南橫段那邊其實發生很嚴重的災情但是消息比較緩慢那我要特別謝謝因為消防署在這邊也謝謝內政部長因為我們很多的人民跟我們求救請求協助的時候我們"},{"start":15961.393,"end":15987.081,"text":"來打電話都立刻處理像是那個時候有三名就是需要洗腎的病人那也謝謝出動直升機去把他們帶出來那很多的救援的一個事項我個人是覺得說其實老百姓都很感謝因為他們覺得效率很好在這邊先說聲謝謝那另外就是也跟消防署有關就是"},{"start":15988.101,"end":16002.926,"text":"我在上一屆進來立法院的時候特別針對向山致敬政策有做過很多次的質詢當時蘇貞昌院長是回應說向山是政策 致敬是態度"},{"start":16003.746,"end":16019.154,"text":"所以呢當時我也很關心就是關於登山基地我希望能夠去做一些登山基地好讓那些登山的人能夠有一個起點那如果有什麼事故呢也可以在那個地方"},{"start":16019.754,"end":16043.199,"text":"有一個通報所以後來國家公園跟林保署都有回應說要開始早點做只是好像又過了兩三年好像不了了之所以我來這邊質詢只是說我想了解一下可以給我提供數據 書面資料讓我了解進度我可不可以請兩位署長跟您先回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":16046.187,"end":16055.124,"text":"委員關心高雄市這個案件我們跟高雄市協調好那可以用初請的車輛的一個費用已經處理好那個我知道了謝謝對好"},{"start":16057.799,"end":16086.588,"text":"那個委員問的登山基地是不是會委託部落這邊來協助的這個議題嗎沒有那個時候其實我也有親自去看過都有開過說明會說會選點做登山基地因為有的是屬於國家公園的有的是屬於林保署的我們的部分後來好像就不了了之有浴館的這個部分我們跟東埔部落這邊其實有在"},{"start":16088.058,"end":16114.385,"text":"有在跟他們溝通那在太館這邊還有在還有一個地方雪壩那邊事實上我們有跟部落這邊來做溝通我們是希望他們能夠我希望也能夠通知辦公室要不然我覺得很多人問我說委員我們都有看到你質詢然後你也有做圖卡結果呢他們問我說到底結果如何那我自己也不知道好嗎我"},{"start":16116.085,"end":16145.225,"text":"會後再提供相關這三個國家公園不過唯一我要謝謝的就是目前因為那時候有爭取到營建署有補助經費所以在屏東那邊的大武山登山基地那個已經很棒了所以我在這個地方也跟我們營建署現在叫國土署來致謝那接下來我就是想說剛才消防署長知道我要問什麼就立刻先告訴我我這樣子說我其實只是要鋪陳"},{"start":16146.265,"end":16168.476,"text":"因為那個時候既然致敬是態度我接到很多族人的陳情跟我說委員我們經常幫忙去救難也背大體重點是我的車子也載大體也沒有看到有表揚也沒有看到給我們獎金所以那時候我有質詢我很高興112年的時候質詢有告訴我說會開始編"},{"start":16174.119,"end":16197.017,"text":"我確實也看到提升三育事故救援效能五年中程計畫我以為說計畫也有了 經費也編列了直到有人跟我講說委員你那個時候也有做圖卡說以後救援的話會有獎金有表揚跟我說怎麼沒有所以我回過頭來問有是有跟我們想像的不一樣"},{"start":16198.018,"end":16216.01,"text":"原來這些是交給一個協會去處理那我就不懂了這個協會怎麼會知道全國各地發生的救援情形而且這些人他也不知道這個協會是誰他也不知道要找誰他唯一能夠找的就是當地的消防分隊可是消防分隊說不知道"},{"start":16217.443,"end":16227.152,"text":"所以這個部分我其實也有邀請我們的副署長有來辦公室討論那目前我知道的改善計畫就如剛才消防署長所講的那兩部車如果有再大體就編錢給他但是我覺得這個跟我們當時的初衷不一樣"},{"start":16235.899,"end":16249.526,"text":"所以我現在要講的是說後來又告訴我說那我們在原住民的部分做一個原住民特收隊啦也是很高興我們聽了也是很高興但是呢我看到計畫裡面只有補助救援裝備器材訓練課程而且我看到你們的會議記錄地方政府是說可能沒有什麼誘因人員招募會很困難"},{"start":16261.872,"end":16269.125,"text":"所以我想了解說如果沒有誘因的狀況下沒有獎金不知道能不能夠招募成功署長"},{"start":16272.136,"end":16293.493,"text":"是很感謝委員我們3月計畫跟委員報告目前明年的委託計畫事實上不是一個協會是每個縣有好幾個協會那每個協會裡面都有原住民同胞可能這樣處理可能還沒有辦法達到委員所關心的一個目標所以明年度的委託計畫目前我們正在跟法律"},{"start":16294.814,"end":16309.485,"text":"顧問這邊再來討論如果說事法可以做的話明年度就可以朝向比較開放的方式來執行我希望能夠救我們原來的初衷就是很簡單消防署消防分隊有叫我去救援"},{"start":16310.245,"end":16330.883,"text":"那我希望有個表揚希望能夠有個獎勵金就這麼簡單那我希望這個部分能夠再去考慮只是我現在要講的是說如果把剛才講的這個救援計畫跟現在的原住民特搜隊有沒有可能把它有一個整併的方式"},{"start":16331.483,"end":16358.493,"text":"是跟委員報告原住民特收對現在就是我們採取比較開放的方式不設定說它是什麼主軸那主要是原住民能夠進來可以針對山區的一個救援能夠加入就跟委員關心的願不願意進來有什麼優因所以我們也考慮就是剛才3D計畫這個區塊怎麼做一個搭配做一個結合我希望能夠搭配如果朝原住民特收然後去做這樣的那個我覺得"},{"start":16359.533,"end":16375.968,"text":"這樣子應該大家就會很耐心好畢竟救援都在山區嘛也不會在平地好謝謝那請給我最後一分鐘我只要講一分鐘那部長請教一下你看一下這個照片因為我照片那個天花板掉下來因為我"},{"start":16377.369,"end":16396.875,"text":"兩個月前有接到一個任務就是現在要做這些什麼原家中心文件站他們都是去借公共空間能借的大概這幾年都借完了舊的派出所 舊的衛生所舊的什麼辦公 村辦公室能借的都借了那他們跟我講什麼呢就是颱風的時候突然整個天花板掉下來"},{"start":16402.277,"end":16429.779,"text":"那很危險所以他們跟我說能不能夠臨時幫他們找一些貨櫃屋讓他們做臨時的辦公室那我也做到了就是有一個貨櫃40尺的裝潢得很漂亮讓他們做一個臨時辦公室我其實要講的是說其實我不曉得內政部這個地方有沒有可能去想一個辦法因為教育部因為我們大概這些地方的公共建物國民政府來之後"},{"start":16431.482,"end":16446.778,"text":"都蓋得很簡陋後來大概民國五十幾年六十幾年齁陸續就是有蓋比較好的廳舍可是又過了五六十年現在那些又變成是老舊的可是像國小的校舍國中的校舍教育部有編列經費"},{"start":16448.7,"end":16473.257,"text":"讓他們在這幾年全面都變成新的校舍可是我看到很多的代表會也好 鄉公所也好 村辦公室也好哇 很辛苦啊 非常的辛苦那現在政府推那麼多社福政策我們也找不到公共空間可以利用所以只是想要問說我們內政部 民政事這邊有沒有可能去"},{"start":16473.937,"end":16497.837,"text":"想一想要怎麼樣來編列這樣的科目預算那未來呢也許利用8年的時間4年的時間把這個全國的需要改善的空間都能夠來處理好嗎好謝謝前瞻預算我們到目前為止已經補助了原鄉地區的公所跟代表會有19件有5億多元"},{"start":16498.659,"end":16516.017,"text":"村里集會所也補助了26件有7000多萬不過前瞻的預算是到今年8月底為止那後續我們會配合行政院的政策看看如何來協助地方要主動啊原住民55個鄉鎮才做了多少年19個"},{"start":16517.678,"end":16526.045,"text":"我還沒有把那個村辦公室活動中心算進去喔我想教育部可以這樣子做我們內政部也應該來爭取行政院的經費好不好好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝我們感謝吳立華委員接受我們家參議委委員接受"},{"start":16555.771,"end":16581.028,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請內政部劉部長以及管理署吳署長蔡委員好部長好部長這個事實上我們都在關心這個外山頂洲的固沙那這外山頂洲的固沙從111年的時候事實上我們內政部就有通過防止外山頂"},{"start":16582.082,"end":16590.486,"text":"防止外陝頂洲沙洲流失的整體防護計畫那當時的防護計畫主要規劃就是說因為布袋山港它在它的南堤那邊有73.5萬方的一個沙源那當時是說把這些沙就直接搬到外陝頂洲去但是第一個運費非常的龐大第二個因為現在"},{"start":16606.755,"end":16610.438,"text":"這些沙另有他用在布袋山港這邊正在進行填海造陸所以大概這個沙源的補充就不會再從布袋山港那外山頂州的固沙的沙源要從哪裡來呢我們後來又開了幾次的會我們認為最好的方法就是從外山頂州的西側然後來進行抽沙"},{"start":16629.138,"end":16632.681,"text":"然後在外山頂周創造一條中央山脈中央山脈就可以防止海浪爬過來外山頂周的沙都掛下去掛下去後整個外山頂周就會持續流失所以大概這樣的一個固砂計畫"},{"start":16648.673,"end":16671.765,"text":"方向都有了但是不知道核定了嗎這一個整個的變更計畫這樣核定了嗎所以想要請教一下我們內政部蔡委員這是國家公園署我是不是請王署長跟你回一下好國家公園署謝謝委員謝謝委員對這個案子的關心那這個案子事實上因為剛剛委員提到本來用布罩的"},{"start":16672.25,"end":16691.322,"text":"布袋的那個香港的一個沙園然後改由東石系府那個沙園那這個案子也感謝委員在今年年初上有召開了一個協調會議那會議完以後要改變這個計畫那今年6月份我本人也主持這樣的一個跨部會的一個協商會議"},{"start":16692.322,"end":16719.765,"text":"那目前來講的話固殺跟抽殺的部分是由水利署這邊來執行然後呢漁民的溝通跟補償的部分是由嘉義縣政府跟漁業署這邊來處理那這個整個處理的那個計畫事實上我已經請兩個單位把這個變更的那個計畫報到我們署裡面來彙整那這個彙整的工作已經在今年9月24號已經報到行政院去那行政院目前是交由工程會"},{"start":16722.644,"end":16737.873,"text":"這邊來請教相關單位然後大概工程會會帶給行政院行政院大概就會核定下來那這個計畫因為有一些變更所以這個計畫會延到116年來執行那相關單位也就是說水利署跟農委會"},{"start":16739.166,"end":16761.48,"text":"約束這邊他們要去編編相關的意思116就是後年的意思啦所以事實上可能明年就是跟漁民溝通嘛對因為我們再看下一張圖啦事實上你看外山頂洲你來看它的西側這裡有很多一格一格一格的這個如果你來看會有密集恐懼症這個不是有人在網路上亂講說這是太陽人板這不是太陽人板喔這是鵝尾這是鵝尾這是我們要吃的鵝啊"},{"start":16767.748,"end":16782.927,"text":"都來自這個當初的這片海也因為有外山頂座把它保護起來所以我們才有這麼肥美的蚵仔湯好吃但是現在就是說因為整個東石的這個細湖因為外山頂座讓它形成一個細湖正在嚴重的內陸化"},{"start":16784.088,"end":16786.552,"text":"這個內陸化是很嚴重的 未來我們整個空間都要變陸地了所以我們才說外陝頂州的抽砂 同時也是避免東石這個細湖繼續內陸化"},{"start":16802.552,"end":16830.991,"text":"也是拯救了這裡的養蚵產業所以我們這個計劃整個方向都是非常正確的而且我們如果早一點跟漁民溝通他們可以在我們在工程期間他們先停止他們的這個蚵的蚵棚的這一個釋放跟養殖他們可以配合所以大家都支持現在就查我們行政作業早一點這樣好不好對好這部分行政院已經在處理了那這部分就是就要"},{"start":16832.096,"end":16842.345,"text":"營業部以編組預算 水利署這邊要編組預算那個固砂跟抽砂這個工程事實上是經費蠻龐大的沒有錯 當然就有預算的問題但是在111年的時候 蘇貞昌院長就有核定12億了只是當時12億有很多是在做運輸費用那我是說 既然那個運輸費用就不用去卡那條就大家刷過來才抽刷 還是應該要有錢"},{"start":16858.32,"end":16868.528,"text":"對啦 有啦 我要當初幾歲的時候叫經濟部這邊要加緊這個腳步好 加緊腳步好 那在第二個第二個議題是不是我找一下移民署"},{"start":16869.437,"end":16890.442,"text":"那我直接跟部長講說部長我們嘉義縣我們那個移民署這個移民署的嘉義嘉義的這一個辦事處基本上他就是我們郵局租的辦公廳舍辦公廳舍所以你看他跟郵局混用然後移民署在這邊就像這個空間已經很老舊而且空間也很小"},{"start":16891.352,"end":16897.079,"text":"我們是不是看部長能不能適度的支持我們嘉義的這個移民署的這個辦公廳設是不是有機會來新建來蓋一個新的啦找新的地方 確定啦當然啦 因為這是遊郊現在都在遊郊 現在都在遊郊做的"},{"start":16912.353,"end":16919.902,"text":"但是我看很安全啦 不過如果是有這個是中用啦啦 不然就空間 覺得吼 因為本身是遊郷的用的 空間是很小的喔這樣遊郷不讓我們用了是嗎遊郷喔 遊郷我只說一句 就不讓你們用了"},{"start":16930.311,"end":16955.776,"text":"委員對我們移民署這麼不好這樣的話就是如果有需要的話我請我們移民署跟嘉義縣我們移民署的同仁來商量一下第一個我們希望在比較多人口出入的地方對於很多移民業務上面包括很多新住民的協助會比較大那如果你要蓋新的部分的話移到邊邊角角當然不要到邊邊角角我的意思就是說我們事實上現在有一些產業園區那產業園區裡面還是會有"},{"start":16958.513,"end":16980.994,"text":"一些是屬於可以做一些聽色的就是說那個產業園區另外的空間事實上那邊就是產業園區事實上也是移工比較會密集群聚的地方所以我覺得事實上在那些空間來我們可以來評估一下但是最好是現在就是國公有的建物"},{"start":16982.315,"end":16998.268,"text":"不要再重新去 因為你剛才叫我們停棄 停棄我們沒有錢但是國共有的建物要找新的承受空間 我們可以試試看這就要再試試看啦 不然這台郵局做的也怪怪啦沒有啦 它是國營事業啦是啦 好啦 OK謝謝 我們感謝蔡議員 委員 Jason我們請黃建平 趙偉 Jason"},{"start":17014.309,"end":17016.41,"text":"感謝主席 我們請賴建柏老部長請安部長教育好部長好 部長辛苦了這麼短的時間不客氣徐先生也要向賴建柏的同仁說感謝這段時間你們辛苦因為花蓮的災害你們兩邊的遭遇"},{"start":17030.7,"end":17043.905,"text":"那今天去我們大仙坡外景有報告說到我們區域排水改善的部分那本市場在拜日就是我們10月27號那一天我當時在那裡 我有召集我們相關的國土署 國土署跟我們的吳市長有去台東看我們飲水的問題也謝謝你安排的機票因為是長假 長假機票不容易是因為那時候"},{"start":17058.59,"end":17082.238,"text":"我今天也要感謝蘇頓和吳次長當天也允諾說會來協助來做排水改善這些事情今天我們等到立法會後我現在要進一步跟蘇頓來請教一些問題人家都說我們台東是好山好水有好的風景可是因為地理位置其實我們是站在"},{"start":17084.261,"end":17107.954,"text":"我們都在搖滾區第一排因為颱風來第一個時間是台東的鄉親然後才到中央山脈所以我們都說我們是住在最美的地方可是承受最高的風險那像我們的今年我們丹利斯然後洋流然後種種豪雨造成台東很多溪流都暴漲溪水然後淹水的問題那這個是我們正在拜去看的課程的重點像我們"},{"start":17109.415,"end":17132.502,"text":"也看到台南市陰水的地方像鳳龍路的部分浙江路這裡因為它地面比較硬加上酒瓶整個開發越來越多人所以它的排水系統不夠這是造成這樣的問題另外就是像藍芒地區那個地方更特別是因為它那邊有個悲難文化遺址它有牽扯到文化公園的部分所以開發上一直都沒有辦法有效的來解決淹水的問題這些都是十幾年的問題保證"},{"start":17136.722,"end":17160.795,"text":"這問題 台南縣也很想來解決其實十幾年來都想解決但問題就是說因為台東縣的這個財力是屬於第五級的縣市我們在觀看那天我們跟署長在聊我們觀看工程就差不多四億多了這個還不包括土地的取得所以這個很龐大的費用這邊是我們台東縣政府其實已經規劃相關的一些計畫那是不是這邊內政部可以全力來支持感謝委員那天特別去看"},{"start":17164.758,"end":17169.961,"text":"包括有這個古社區比較早期開的道路因為白水比較壞 地勢比較低是 也包括像藍芒地區它因為剛好有特殊的這個這個文化遺址的問題導致它有一些工程沒有辦法很順利的去做"},{"start":17183.086,"end":17200.871,"text":"這幾個都會是我們在後續因為我們在未來四年跟進一步有四年四百億的這個一個治水的一個計畫的預算那這部分我想我們都會優先改善這種已經有淹水疑慮的地區這些我們都會優先來支持"},{"start":17202.258,"end":17215.514,"text":"謝謝署長跟部長 本席這邊要跟部長講 昨天署長跟市長去的時候他當時答應我們在庭上 請都非常高興因為這件事困擾很久了 只要一大堆就不漂亮了這幾天還沒過一個鳳凰 還要路過海鷗還海鷗"},{"start":17222.763,"end":17244.243,"text":"這就是接下來要跟部長這邊來討論就是說我們當然知道這個淹水問題他不可能你特別是土地徵收他不可能是第一時間來改觀嘛但是現在就是我們要越大就淹水的部分要先來短期趕快來解決就是在怎麼樣來防止民宅有淹水就是我們"},{"start":17245.643,"end":17268.575,"text":"台東縣政府其實最近有在盤點會淹水的市區有幾個熱點喔那我們也有跟中央來申請這個防水閘門的這個經費大概總共是一千七百十五萬左右我們高危分管政府就已經上我們內政部來提出申請了這個部分是不是補充這個我們今天要來合作讓我們面對我們所要的飲水問題我們隨時來想做改善報告院"},{"start":17273.888,"end":17280.232,"text":"我們防水 咱們整個計劃有抱怨在等院合定合定之後就可以趕快來執行這補責 請補充跟訴訟者再給道三講一下好"},{"start":17285.609,"end":17300.921,"text":"這樣子真的是也是藉由這個機會謝謝那個部長跟署長啦台東確實他這幾年一直遇到這樣的災害我們其實都很想要來解決我們希望專跟地方一起來合作我相信這北省都很有感的謝謝委員其實你提到這個部分我們大家都會非常重視而且"},{"start":17305.748,"end":17325.26,"text":"我們都盡可能因為最主要不要讓民眾的有淹水的這樣的一個憂慮尤其像這些地勢低窪長年需要有防水閘門甚至我們當天也鼓勵縣府或許在一些地勢低窪地區周圍有沒有要做滯洪池的規劃都請他們在做排水的檢討的時候要優先"},{"start":17325.78,"end":17337.148,"text":"又先納入考慮 好啦 謝謝署長 署長謝謝謝謝你也很關心台東縣政府這邊的一些相關的案子那這邊再請部裡面來多多來協助台東縣政府來協助我們台東鄉親的問題那在這 這樣感謝部長跟署長感謝 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委我們請楊祥英"},{"start":17350.213,"end":17375.254,"text":"楊瓊英 楊瓊英 立委不在我們這裡 侯孟愷 侯孟愷 侯孟愷委員不在這裡 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 委員不在林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦 委員不在我們這裡 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 委員不在"},{"start":17377.576,"end":17384.66,"text":"我們現在羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在我們現在葉元之委員質詢主席要慢慢請警政署現在張署長委員好"},{"start":17406.367,"end":17429.956,"text":"處長好 那個我這邊有一個陳情他是這樣子他要經過那個路口的時候其實他是綠燈要往前走但是因為有一個行人違規穿越馬路後來因為那個穿越馬路後來很多人就扒扒之後那個行人就往後退然後往後退的時候那他們就往前行結果因為那個車子往前行跟那個行人的距離可能沒有到三個斑馬線那麼寬"},{"start":17431.28,"end":17457.512,"text":"就直接被開罰單說沒有禮讓行人那大家都覺得很不合理就是明明是那個行人穿越馬路而且他已經往後退了就是他不是要往前走如果他的方向和汽車可能會交叉的方向會發生交錯的話那當然汽車應該要讓可是是行人先違規在先後來也往後退但汽車就按照原本的路線前行結果被罰沒有禮讓行人"},{"start":17458.092,"end":17466.714,"text":"那我當然我知道這個交通法規問題我想問署長站在警方執法的角度你會不會覺得這樣的一個規定不太合常理"},{"start":17467.541,"end":17489.77,"text":"我們就依照這個個案來做一個認定如果以剛才委員所講的那行政違規所造成的這個就是不理讓先人我覺得這可以申訴應該是可以重寬來認定申訴重寬認定但我覺得應該要有一個原則出來就是說不然的話以後每一個人都是假設先被開了再申訴其實也是造成"},{"start":17491.17,"end":17505.797,"text":"那個距離是三個子木如果像這種狀況是不是當時的收證剛好就是沒有看到他違規的狀況是屬於他不理讓行人的這個情形就是前半段沒有去看到這個情形只知道後半段這個車輛"},{"start":17507.56,"end":17522.688,"text":"策略不就是這個就是策略不理讓行人的部分如果他整個整串裡面這個全體看到我想這個單子應該是從觀點應該是不會開才不會開那你可能要跟你那個說明說如果類似的狀況就不要先開嗎對我們會把這個個案會來做一個一個宣導來做一個教育"},{"start":17530.512,"end":17536.507,"text":"好 再請教一下因為昨天有一個大家滿關心的話題是在龍山市居然有人大剌剌的擺攤出來買證件"},{"start":17539.006,"end":17563.831,"text":"我們大家都知道說龍山市那邊有一些詐騙集團他會去跟有名收購個資這並不是新聞可是居然有人可以擺攤然後透過發現金的這樣的一個藉口然後跟人家講說你拿這個現金就要來引印雙證件結果警方最後去查的時候其實已經11個人交出雙證件了我覺得在光天化日之下居然可以做這樣的事情我不知道您那個署長您了解的狀況是怎樣"},{"start":17564.554,"end":17580.068,"text":"那這個案是小巨的萬華文明局這個接受到這個報案之後就有到現場去做了解那現在這個案子你是在偵辦當中我知道你偵辦當中我是說那個居然在光天化日之下大家都在圍觀耶那為什麼會發生這樣事所以我們一定會依法來偵辦當然是依法偵辦我的意思是說"},{"start":17586.213,"end":17614.151,"text":"不应该发生这样的事情吗因为是光天化日而且大辣辣的在做这个那个因为犯罪的现象千奇百怪速度上面可能应该在加快吧是一定会加快再请教一下因为也是跟诈骗有关昨天有一个新闻说有一个诈骗集团他被检方查扣了45亿那个太子集团太子集团结果他的相关人等是70万到50万交保后来大家就觉得说"},{"start":17615.879,"end":17628.399,"text":"這扣了45億結果每個人是5萬到70萬交保那我不知道說警方因為這些都要你們去抓嘛抓了之後又被放出來而且交保金那麼低你們的想法是怎樣"},{"start":17629.195,"end":17653.716,"text":"那我想有關於羈押這個部分大概就是會覺得太輕嗎那我覺得應該是有努力的空間啦所以希望說這個要再重一點好 謝謝因為有時候這個檢方或司法的部分有時候我們的這個狀況大概會採取比較尊重的態度來做這樣的一個狀況好 那請那個部長好不好請部長 謝謝請保長"},{"start":17661.649,"end":17689.607,"text":"部長我想請教一下現在行政院想要推那個自主都更嘛是對吧那自主都更用意利益良善就是說不要讓建商抽一手嘛可以減少行政程序嘛讓地主可以分回來的容積比較多應該是目的是這樣但我看就是行政院所講的方案是講說以後假設地主自己成立一個都更會就不要找建商就找建金公司由建金公司來幫忙這新聞是這樣寫的啦我了解"},{"start":17689.807,"end":17715.72,"text":"未必我們會有多元的處理因為如果是找建金公司那意思跟找建商一樣所以這個自主都更講的我覺得蠻多地主會想要朝這個方向可是目前大家對於到底怎麼做程序上你的程序有沒有跟像危老都更已經進行一段時間大家已經有一個制式的程序可以走但自主都更到現在都還沒有一個比較具體的東西出來我不知道那個"},{"start":17716.66,"end":17744.302,"text":"國土署或內政部這邊什麼時候會針對這件事情做比較多的宣傳我們會我先跟委員報告一下我們現在針對那個都更危老條例在修正包括要把老宅延壽放到裡面去那所以都更裡面自主都更這一塊也要放進去未來就是一定要能夠保障想要都更的自然人而不是建商公司或者是一定程度我知道這個我沒有人說不好啦我是說因為那個消息出來之後大家在關心"},{"start":17744.99,"end":17773.37,"text":"但是相關資訊比較少所以我覺得可以適時的就是適時的把一些重要訊息讓大家先知道可以先做準備然後第二個就是我們也是我們那邊選區發生的事情就是有一個區域民眾反映說他的房子被人家準備要做4D重畫他是沒有同意可是忽然間已經過半了地主過半然後他很驚訝後來他去詢問其他就是有簽同意的地主"},{"start":17773.786,"end":17794.022,"text":"結果很多地主說他不曉得那現在市地重劃有民眾就會質疑就說自辦市地重劃是不是在整合的過程當中法規訂的比較鬆所以才會出現這樣狀況因為他們都很緊張我的房子會不會忽然間就被拿去重劃那"},{"start":17795.764,"end":17823.785,"text":"報告委員因為事半事地重劃的話他的發起至少要十分之三的地主同意所以可能在一般的案子他們會先去徵求部分地主同意不過在後續程序上一定還會再做一個公聽會座談會包含聽證讓其他的地主都知道一個重劃的過程才能去做一個核定我覺得最快可能要把關因為他當然是有程序可是來找我們陳情的民眾就很緊張就他就非常緊張"},{"start":17826.205,"end":17832.408,"text":"對所以我這部分就是有影響到民眾我們再跟委員請教一下好謝謝謝謝感謝葉燕姿委員精神"},{"start":17845.078,"end":17861.978,"text":"經紀法院的委員退後不在庭委員會出內的委員的發言都已經完畢這項結束了委員黃捷所提出的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":17864.742,"end":17882.621,"text":"書面執行及未答覆的部分請相關單位一星期來書面答覆並複製本會這次會議到現在結束現在散會謝謝大家 大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"165132","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165132","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2d57cb0d7e05ad5276e3cb72f09a57cc5fb8f8e2c9a30897aec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:11:33 - 09:14:28","影片長度":"00:02:55","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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各位同仁大家早本期今天所提出的是公司法第387條的修正草案目的很單純就是希望讓法理法律回到常理讓實務能被看見現行台灣規定公司登記的代理人僅限會計師律師但記帳是法第13條早已明文記帳是得受委任辦理營業變更註銷停付業及其他登記事項"},{"start":37.243,"end":60.008,"text":"兩法不一致 讓想創業的民眾充滿繞路跟徒增成本的荒謬台灣九成以上的中小企業創業初期其實最倚重的專業夥伴大部分都是記帳室他們熟悉設立變更稅務跟帳務的流程是協助企業從零到一的第一線卻因為公司法的限制 明明全案都是由記帳室承辦"},{"start":60.968,"end":70.478,"text":"但是呢到最後送件仍要見名會計師或律師增加費用拉長時程也讓責任鏈不清楚制度與現實長期的脫節不僅壓縮計帳室依法執業的空間亦浪費社會資源讓創業者更是不必要的負擔保安修正在第三項甄列計帳室明定前兩項是申請的"},{"start":84.532,"end":111.654,"text":"代理人以會計師 律師 記章師為線這不是擴權 而是法制的統一不是降低門檻 而是尊重專業的分工記章師早就具有國家考試跟專業的監督依法負責 可受集合承辦登記事務的能力與責任早有制度保障讓能者依法為之可提升效率 降低成本 明確責任亦能夠強化主管機關的追蹤與管理"},{"start":112.074,"end":128.443,"text":"修法後 會計師與律師的專業價值不會被取代在查核 見證 訴訟等領域仍有其不可替代的角色我們只是讓長年在座的人能夠名正言順把流程的斷點補上把責任的揮曲釐清這對創業者來說是利多"},{"start":130.764,"end":152.415,"text":"對行政體系來說是減壓對產業環境來說是加速器法律本來就應當隨著社會脈動而進步當現實走到面前法條就不該成為絆腳石而這次的修正即使法制統一的必要也是一種務實的選擇它不會改變登記制度的監督強度反而會讓制度更加透明化跟合理化"},{"start":153.382,"end":173.949,"text":"所以為了讓社會運作更為順暢即將是長年默默支持台灣的中小企業他們是最了解企業細節經營的一群人今天我們只希望透過這項修正讓法律能夠回歸常理讓專業能夠各司其職也能讓創業者少一些不必要的障礙 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是在我們台灣的通路是不是可以把我們所有的通路做個Q進來讓他們看到我們台南的路這個很重要那我們之前是全家福那現在可能明年是DK所以如果是這樣子的話到底我們這個通路可以擴展到什麼程度"},{"start":114.429,"end":139.057,"text":"有沒有去預計過我們通路現在當然有包括線上的通路也有這個實體的通路那我是不是請那個我們商業署長稍微說明一下那個委員就是俯臣鞋這邊因為在那個年初的時候因為跟刺繡那邊也有相關嘛那鞋子的部分我們在有辦一些展售會我們也主動去有邀請這些鞋業的業者也能夠一起來"},{"start":139.707,"end":155.707,"text":"那未来辅诚协这边我们也会跨局处之间我们再办一些展售活动通路或是线上我们都会一起把它有我必须肯定是从去年到现在我们感受到我们终于有被关心了"},{"start":157.113,"end":184.127,"text":"在台南說這個蝦是我們非常傳統的產業我們從小的時候我們家裡大家這樣一間家裡然後可能他做蝦就吃一個月但是到現在來慢慢的好像整個需求量沒那麼高我們一直在說的我們實在是我們一箱一箱用手工的我們的品質過去我們的蝦"},{"start":185.987,"end":213.604,"text":"在世界各國人都說Made in Taiwan大家避一避可是那是多久的時間我們怎麼再重新把品牌製造出來所以很感謝我們有了輔誠鞋這樣的一個依靠那我們現在把它正式記者會公開了好這個品牌輔誠鞋那麼要問那沒有錯我們各個"},{"start":215.051,"end":221.151,"text":"经济部所管辖的相关都有尽力在协助可是这个通路"},{"start":222.882,"end":247.092,"text":"雖然我們有網路我們有實體可是我們怎麼讓大家能夠更清楚瞭解富翔鴨就是過去的made in Taiwan這種的工廠請一箱台灣鴨請一箱富翔鴨它可以外公營英語這代表著我們台南的品牌跟台灣的品牌我們要怎麼做"},{"start":250.315,"end":260.894,"text":"沒有想過那個委員我們這邊好可以針對這個鞋子或者俯臣鞋這邊來做一個專案的一個協助輔導那是不是讓我們再跟業者這邊來接洽"},{"start":263.495,"end":290.837,"text":"其实他们已经都觉得你们有在帮忙了但是我觉得我们希望的是真的让很多的产业继续扎根所以这个通路很重要我们这个拼白料我们这个通路很重要然后另外就是说部长你记不记得我们上个礼拜一去到我们台南做对谈的时候我们有讲到说辅导"},{"start":292.098,"end":315.883,"text":"我想我們現在有一個很重要的智慧科技輔具我們怎麼從這個來延伸AI加上我們的AI因為現在失智越來越多的案例所以我們怎麼讓這個所謂的AI因為我們都是情侶"},{"start":317.369,"end":344.507,"text":"李嘉在失智之前人家的研究可能他会对于他某一个颜色或是他过去的某一个样态他会特别特别记忆犹新所以我们怎么让我们这个所谓的智慧科技辅具如果我们延伸我们用AI辅导然后跟智慧科技辅具跟辅成鞋结合"},{"start":347.912,"end":349.9,"text":"其实这是一个很好的点是"},{"start":350.523,"end":376.933,"text":"对不对因为我们现在刚好都在推这个智慧科技辅助那如果我们可以借着这一次大家开始在讨论失智然后我们怎么用科技的一个脉络然后把我们的长者失智的长者能够保护他让他免于跑不见或是我们可以把他找回来"},{"start":377.952,"end":399.5,"text":"那所以我觉得鞋算是一个很重要而且也是我们可以以前都是用手环的对不对可是手环如果他拿掉了你完全就找不到但是会啊鞋子不会啊而且鞋子它有足迹走到哪里都很清楚"},{"start":400.825,"end":428.908,"text":"所以我觉得那一天跟你对谈之后我觉得如果我们可以把这个用AI然后导入到我们的传产那么写是一个很好的代表性刚好现在大家都在谈失智这个状态那我们要怎么来协助更多这个案例越来越多那个部长你觉得呢我觉得谢委员提醒我觉得非常棒所以"},{"start":429.417,"end":453.116,"text":"不仅把AI跟智慧导入之外我们可以把它形成一个专案那顺便也把那个通路也把它一并一个专案辅导就是除了科技导入之外还有怎么样通路把它设计出来那这个专案里面把它一并的把它形成我请军工中心来协助来筹部长因为传统产业你要个别去找"},{"start":453.877,"end":475.779,"text":"每一個公司其實有它的困難度你可以先找工會就像你這個我們這個計畫它是以台南市皮革製品工會為主那麼其實我剛提的這個案子你就可以請製策會因為製策會現在都有跟工會在做對接那是不是把金工中心也加進來"},{"start":477.02,"end":502.669,"text":"然后让AI然后协助他们去做这个转型如果我们可以研发出来说真的这个对于我们在寻找我们万一我们的失智状态的一个案例它其实会有很大的帮助所以这个部分再拜托了谢谢然后再来就是我们现在地下管线的投资"},{"start":503.769,"end":529.531,"text":"部長 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謝謝主席我請一下部長我們再請龔部長"},{"start":23.784,"end":44.009,"text":"部長好部長我想我們今天要審查這個公司法跟這個能源管理法那本席就能源管理法提出了一個修正的版本增訂第19條之二本席的內容是明定任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應或能源基礎設施的不實謠言"},{"start":45.229,"end":66.598,"text":"以及增訂第27條之一對於違反者若造成社會秩序危害或引發公眾恐慌處以新台幣10萬以上60萬以下的罰款這個部長我想您大概也非常清楚這幾年其實台灣受到境外的這一些認知作戰的影響是非常的巨大包括"},{"start":67.714,"end":96.293,"text":"其實在今年的這個興達電廠的火災之後呢就有媒體就寫說不排除分區限電然後前一陣子大家一直在講說這個烏山頭水庫的太陽能板是不是有毒是不是用清潔劑去洗太陽能板那甚至昨天前天在這個社群媒體的平台上面還有人說嘉義東石外海有這麼多漂流的光電板"},{"start":96.693,"end":100.059,"text":"漂浮的光電板 民進黨是怎麼做事的"},{"start":101.799,"end":130.561,"text":"這個東石外海的這個不是光電板是磕碰人家的企業磕價的磕碰但是類似這樣的一些假訊息一直不斷的來做干擾部長您到底怎麼看本席的這個提案你知不支持雖然你剛剛講說這個是不是要等你們所有的這個行政院版的版本出來那我覺得對於假訊息對於故意散播謠言這一件事情"},{"start":131.901,"end":156.567,"text":"還需要等嗎還要再等你們的版本出來嗎報委員 這方向上當然我們是樂觀其成是支持但是現在因為相關有關於這個謠言主要還是已經有這個社會秩序維護法了那怎麼樣這邊跟社會秩序服務法看怎麼樣內容上有一些協調或者是執行上要怎麼去處理可能我們要再思考一下"},{"start":158.234,"end":179.179,"text":"所以你還是要等社會秩序維護法部長我請教一下你們有沒有去做過一些調查統計關於這種來自境外IP的組織操作的這些跟能源相關的議題有沒有去做過調查有沒有去做過統計然後這樣的攻擊的頻率跟次數"},{"start":180.439,"end":202.531,"text":"影響的程度你們有沒有去做過調查跟統計沒有詳細但是有感覺到是越來越你如果沒有做過統計當然你就會覺得我就等社委法我就等什麼法如果你有去做過統計的話你會知道越來越頻繁就感受得到這樣的這個境外的攻擊對台灣的整體能源政策來講其實是"},{"start":203.581,"end":228.428,"text":"非常嚴重的境外的攻擊不只是在政治面上面他在國家的很多的施政上面其實都會造成巨大的影響所以我想請您回去好好想一下如果說這一件事情你們認為這些境外的攻擊是嚴重的是不是能夠考慮把本席的這個提案納入在我們明天的這個審查討論裡頭這個是第一點第二點"},{"start":233.573,"end":254.743,"text":"關於這個境外中國電商落地納管部長我要請教一下你所謂的落地納管是什麼意思落地納什麼管哪一個法來管理管理他的哪一些部分比如說現在我們知道這個淘寶"},{"start":256.752,"end":285.76,"text":"淘寶他其實我們都知道他是中資可是他在台灣的落地他在台灣的設立是用港資 淘寶公司台灣的分公司那港資的台灣分公司在台灣他具不具備有法人的身份歐洲 日本 韓國都早就已經要求跨境的電商要設立法人可是台灣沒有你要求他落地納管"},{"start":286.806,"end":312.471,"text":"要管理他什麼要用什麼法去管理他他要遵循你哪一個法如果說這樣的一個跨境電商你現在陸委會也講啊我們的中資管理辦法裡頭沒有開放電商啊可是大家都知道淘寶就是中資啊你可以告訴我你要怎麼管嗎報委員基本上我們現在的態度還是不會讓"},{"start":313.72,"end":329.852,"text":"淘寶來台灣經營電商那現在這個香港商你這個不是很鄉怨嗎不要讓淘寶來台灣經營電商可是淘寶就在台灣啊沒有 他只能經營有一些船艙上的傳送而已這個是廣告小船的傳送網路上到處都有啊"},{"start":330.552,"end":358.981,"text":"然後他不能透過媒體來做廣告是不行的他只是不能透過媒體做廣告他現在淘寶需要透過什麼媒體做廣告大家都知道淘寶他還需要做什麼廣告他繞了一個彎用港資成立台灣的分公司那你要落地納管你要管他什麼我就簡單問你這一句話嘛你要用哪一個法來管他我簡單問你嘛這一家台灣的分公司有沒有繳稅他的營業額他有沒有繳稅他幾乎沒有營業額"},{"start":361.355,"end":385.576,"text":"他只是一個推波廣就是這個發放小船單啊或等等一些情況你說他幾乎沒有營業這跟我們社會的認知差別太大了吧那他沒有營業你為什麼要納管他你為什麼要叫他落地納管你要管他什麼我剛一直問你這一句話嘛你一直要納管你要管他什麼然後你現在告訴我他沒有營業那他沒有營業你還要管他什麼你叫他直接公司收起來"},{"start":386.656,"end":410.875,"text":"跟委員報告香港淘寶在這邊我們只有核准他廣告傳單的分送那現在大家在上那個淘寶他其實並沒有落地在我們台灣成立淘寶的購物網他大概都是用那個大陸的那個淘寶電商那這個部分目前納管的話就是說如果你沒有在台灣落地我們就不讓你可以經營那也是用這樣那這個部分因為涉及到跨部會可能我們還跟"},{"start":411.675,"end":434.681,"text":"蘇衛部那邊一起來討論一下怎麼去管理這個跨境電商這種沒有落地而違法經營的問題其實這個問題已經很久了淘寶這件事情還不只淘寶什麼拼多多各式各樣的這些跨境電商他現在就是鑽台灣的法律漏洞那這個過去大家從中國跨境買的包裹"},{"start":435.939,"end":461.808,"text":"常常我們這個包裹收到的時候裡面會收到一條豬肉條會收到一個豬肉乾會收到一個豬肉香腸這個都是漏洞好現在非洲豬瘟入侵台灣很有可能是透過這些郵包我說有可能或者是被不知名的人士在這個"},{"start":463.786,"end":482.942,"text":"航運的時候帶進偷帶豬肉進來台灣總之這個非洲豬瘟已經在台灣產生已經在台灣出現現在我們要亡羊補牢要來管理這一些中國跨境郵包的時候這個郵包的數量最多我想應該就是淘寶嘛"},{"start":483.823,"end":502.454,"text":"那淘寶大家都知道他是跨境電商都知道他是中國是中國的阿里巴巴集團在管理管控那你們現在一直跟我說要落地納管我們沒有要讓他落地因為我們不想希望他在這邊合法經營"},{"start":504.909,"end":527.308,"text":"部長 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在事後再提供給我你講這些有一些我都有去參加也當評鑑委員所以我想要請教的這個部分因為這些媒體報導所使用的字眼網路上就是氾濫的留言這些內容是否符合文化平權"},{"start":145.086,"end":173.646,"text":"我想要問的是這個符合嗎符合你推動的文化平權嗎委員指的是哪一些語言你們有一個文化平權的推動方案就是你說他們留言對就是網路那麼氾濫的留言有符合你推動的文化平權嗎當然不符合因為網路的語言基本上我們是無法控制的但是我覺得對於新住民的這個"},{"start":174.767,"end":196.008,"text":"一些不当的语言我想我们在文化部的立场我希望能够呼吁然后让大家重新正视新住民的文化是因为我们希望的是文化提前要有推荐的效率但是我们目前所说的就是这些的业务推广对于少减少这些就是"},{"start":198.15,"end":212.175,"text":"在網路上這樣的媒體的用語是否有達到我們的文化平衡這個方案的目標啦所以因為時間有限 但是我們在查到文化部推廣文化平衡的補助專案"},{"start":214.676,"end":232.629,"text":"自從106年起每年大約就編列300萬元左右的經費補助10多個團體和個人其中於新住民相關大約占五分之一左右從網路公開查到的效果評估"},{"start":233.49,"end":255.149,"text":"表忠補助新住民相關的人數除了113年是線上結合線下有7萬多人以外其他就是參與人數都不多啦所以我們想問的是花錢補助是否有效因為你們要推廣這個文化平權"},{"start":263.72,"end":293.08,"text":"所以我們部長回答不了是不是因為時間有限回答不了但是我們看到的就是有一位教授就是中山醫學大學的教授楊皓然教授有一篇登在我們的國科會文中指出目前台灣社會和政策提倡對於新住民認同與了解"},{"start":294.141,"end":310.162,"text":"但是通過介紹歷史文化這樣的就是只接觸留在表面而已所以缺少生活化真實互動的經驗所以難以相信就是連結這樣子的感情"},{"start":311.643,"end":327.448,"text":"所以提升民众对新住民的认同效果真的有限所以我们社会还是缺杂就是同理心还有就是理解我们的不同的文化都把新住民当的外人过客所以我们才要"},{"start":328.268,"end":348.345,"text":"要請我們的部長你認同這樣子的楊教授的論點嗎因為看到你們的文化平權就是這樣子所以我們希望說文化平權的政策上要生活化互動的內容要思考如何去擴展更多人參加"},{"start":350.484,"end":379.745,"text":"所以部长可以做得到吗在关于这个文化平权的推广基本上我跟麦委员讲其实台湾的新住民对台湾的贡献很多而且台湾是一个多元文化的一个小岛所以越多的文化进来我们跟文化的融合是对台湾文化越有帮助我个人参与过很多我们文化部的很多活动他们时常在一些捷径中全部都是新住民的活动这点刚才跟"},{"start":380.345,"end":400.886,"text":"委員報告我們一點都沒有忽略好謝謝我們部長但是我們希望能一起及時管理台灣這個土地上就是我們是新住民不管先來後到我們都是不分你我分內外我們希望一起合作但是因為之前"},{"start":402.067,"end":417.713,"text":"之前我剛來立法院我就問我們文化部我們之前有一個新住民社區營造的方案這個做得很好你們說會繼續但是到最後我還是沒有看到我今天看"},{"start":418.653,"end":439.301,"text":"整本你們報告裡面也跟新住民也沒有關係但是你說有很多活動其他等等等等但是我看報告也沒有 文化瓶前也是就是人數也很少但是我要求你們之前我看到做得很好的但是你們又把它就是到現在就不見了"},{"start":440.281,"end":459.759,"text":"所以我們希望就是一起合作如何支持就是我們要怎麼樣去推廣我們的就是族群的平等還有這樣的文化的交流我們才能達到共榮共榮的一起讓我們台灣更有美好的特色"},{"start":460.939,"end":484.048,"text":"所以部長希望你在今年再來關於新住民這個文化特色要編列一算要怎麼樣讓大家去發展不能只是永遠只是學習參與就是學習參與就變成永遠的是文化的學生但是沒辦法是發揮的平台以上 謝謝"},{"start":486.916,"end":490.022,"text":"謝謝謝謝馬玉珍委員質詢部長請回座接下來請"}]}},{"id":"165126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165126","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2beea839d6cf8d38dd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:55:20 - 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系統建制 計算還有待遇的調整那都在你們五次跨部會協調會議裡面陸續定案那全區部也有提到替代率的上限還有隨那個本縫調整等等的規則而且有負責這些資訊的建制好 那我想請教部長"},{"start":71.75,"end":96.712,"text":"那這些是你們開會都確認過的對不對我們在五次的協商會議呢都是有派員過去參加好謝謝那我想請問一下既然都已經有派員過去那顯必你們一定對於這個會議很清楚那我想請教一下那對於提高退休金資格的適用對象目前是不是已經有明確的名單了請問部長大概多少"},{"start":97.947,"end":122.049,"text":"三萬八千多人有三萬八千多人對不起 詳細的那個名單我是不是請署長跟委員報告一下沒有 我只說有沒有明確的名單的嘛你是說人數是吧不是人數 有沒有名單 誰可以當然有啊名單就是有三萬八千多名好 有就是有每個人是誰可以領誰會你們有名單的嘛 好那現在是這樣啦 就是說"},{"start":123.229,"end":146.836,"text":"我想上個月16號我們的牛許廷委員他其實有質詢過那其實有表示9月就已經完成名單的清冊所以這個一定有那我想請教一下部長那可不可以開放讓個人去查詢他屬不屬於自己屬不屬於名單的範圍內我說他個人不可能讓他查別人可不可以讓他個人去查詢他自己是不是屬於名單的範圍內"},{"start":148.016,"end":165.053,"text":"報告委員這個是全序部的系統不是由內政部來主管所以必須要有全序部你們有去開會啊不行這個跟各自相關的話我們還是要在分工上面做比較好的處理所以這個不歸你們管不是不是我們的權限不是不歸我們報告委員"},{"start":165.553,"end":194.065,"text":"那你有沒有去問嘛你有沒有去爭取因為你是警消的大家長那這些警察消防他們到底有沒有這個他可以很多人都問到底自己屬不屬於那個範圍內很多人說他搞不清楚那搞不清楚你不能叫小警員去問全區部說請全區部回答嘛他一定是透過內政部來去請教這件事啊那你現在不能說這個是全區部的事不關我的事那你要當他大家長還是當他小弟一個簡單的只要是警察官退休的都是"},{"start":195.242,"end":218.505,"text":"那是不是 這個就是很明確 你是屬於人家只有適用的這只是警察官退休的那這樣啦 就是警察官退休這樣子啦 我們不能夠籠統的講啦我跟你說再嚴謹的這種標準都會有一些很偏離職的一些人他搞不清楚自己到底屬不屬於所以是不是可以麻煩你們協調權需部至少能夠讓"},{"start":219.546,"end":235.402,"text":"這些人可以稍微查一下他到底是不是範圍內那我再請教一下部長那你們現在都在講說等釋憲結果嘛那我先不姑且不論釋憲這個事情對或不對啦我請教一下如果釋憲說合憲那你們是馬上"},{"start":236.383,"end":244.306,"text":"下個月就一次補足嗎是這樣子做嗎就是編列預算的進度到哪裡去我們會追溯會追溯還是一次給足沒有會追溯按照原來的發放辦法我也知道追溯追溯的方式是一次給足還是分期請教部長"},{"start":255.149,"end":269.342,"text":"你是說以前欠的部分嗎因為未來他按月或者是按他的那個年限是另外一回事你說以前的部分不是啊 我們三四月就通過的法案嘛我知道 我知道委員的意思那你的回溯是一次補足還是分期還給他嘛你要跟我講 我的問題這麼簡單"},{"start":271.104,"end":293.515,"text":"我的問題就這麼簡單如果你連這個都不知道顯然你就是配合著左翁泰在那邊不發嘛如果有想要發的話因為你的問題我不了解啊如果你可以把問題講得很清楚我就會清楚的回應你不能說無線上告是政治性的操作你只跟我說我會回溯還給人民但是呢回溯一次給還是分次給你到現在還沒有"},{"start":293.675,"end":314.913,"text":"那預算如何編列 我們就按照預算編列的方式處理所以啊 你看你到現在你都還搞不清楚啊編列預算也是你們的事情啊編列預算也是你們的事 你不要在那邊騙人民啊那沒有問題 我們按照大院通過的預算程序我們按照大院通過的預算程序來處理離岸歷史是我一直以來覺得非常厲害的地方但這個地方 你搞不清楚就搞不清楚"},{"start":315.373,"end":334.712,"text":"你不知道一次給還是分次給我們要了解程序是什麼一定有一定的SOP我們絕對不會欺負我們退職的警察人員沒有再說清楚就是在騙這些人還是你最後要拖給藍白亂三一算還是你要像之前你的習慣我沒錢就沒錢啊你以前不是曾經講過這句話我沒錢就沒錢嘛租屋津貼的時候你就這樣講會不會到時候你就一句話講"},{"start":339.617,"end":343.101,"text":"最後我想我今天請部長承諾兩件事情我知道你零壓歷史沒關係我非常佩服你這一點我想承諾你兩件事第一個公告追溯補回的SOP我希望你能夠公告對於這些錢誰能領何時算怎麼算怎麼發何時到"},{"start":356.756,"end":375.382,"text":"誰負責這個事情麻煩你們能夠公告清楚第二個 開放權力能夠這個協助他們能夠對這個名冊的查詢啦我想基層要的是這個啦我跟你講 你不能讓錦霄在第一線流汗然後你們在預算上面就耍賴 又不能這樣我跟你講 真正對於錦霄的感謝不是口號 是帳戶到帳"},{"start":380.243,"end":403.375,"text":"對他們的尊敬也不是掌聲啦我尊重委員的質詢但是委員千萬不要問錯方向你都是在騙人啦所以我今天我就麻煩你們你連今天告訴我合憲之後是一次給他還是分期給他那就大院通過的程序怎麼處理我們按照程序來處理啊把這件事放心上我真的不相信這是行政立法要一起努力的我跟你講啦"},{"start":405.313,"end":428.463,"text":"這些人對政府甚至有公法上請求權可以提告的他提告之後怎麼辦國家是要編一堆預算又要去請律師我們尊重好啦沒關係啦你沒有解決到問題啦那我剛剛麻煩你們齁做到的那兩項公告麻煩你們能夠做到協助這些全序部我們會來協調但是前面的部分的SOB還是一樣要尊重大院的立法院的立法程序謝謝謝謝我們感謝吳總統"}]}},{"id":"165125","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165125","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2a04553084668149fd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:45:41 - 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謝謝主席 我們請劉部長請保證徐委員好部長好不知道前面有沒有委員在詢問有關這個自然人憑證的這個部分我們看到內政部的報告宣稱推動多元申辦管道自然人憑證有效卡"},{"start":29.107,"end":52.454,"text":"發卡406萬張您滿意這個成果嗎部長當然不滿意因為我們全台灣的人口沒有這麼少不滿意那有再檢討嗎有再檢討我接著我們再看一下自然人憑證的使用人次到今年我看到的數據到7月"},{"start":55.044,"end":70.082,"text":"就今年度7月为止总共使用了7850万次但是去年113年在同一期它的使用次数是2亿"},{"start":71.653,"end":91.893,"text":"等于是2.09亿次我们看到这个使用率在今年就去年到今年一年内急速下降近乎雪崩请问部长这个是不是一个警讯应该不是可能我们有一些限制我请司长跟你回应一下你们知道原因了"},{"start":92.193,"end":108.147,"text":"是跟委員說明一下就是說自然憑證有分兩種一個是晶片卡自然憑證一個是行動是手機的憑證那雖然今年的使用次數稍微減少但是我們不是稍微啊雪崩啊對但是我們借機的系統數已經從"},{"start":109.788,"end":129.746,"text":"云莱的900多的系统数增加到现在的1330个系统数所以说它虽然的使用的次数降低但是它每一个使用的次数都是在做线上的数位签张数位签张就是所谓的电子签张法的个人意识的表达"},{"start":130.787,"end":147.839,"text":"雖然是說使用的次數有減少但是它的大部分都是在做數位簽章而且我們這個都是過去的統計的數量這因為是疫情的關係所以使用的次數當初有最高峰的時候每年可以達到3.6"},{"start":150.361,"end":176.63,"text":"但是我好了这样浪费我太多时间了那我讲的就是去年跟今年比我们看到雪崩式的这种下降那我再讲一个就是说我们114年累计核发的自然人凭证是超过了1049万张但是有效期限内的只有406万是你们报告里面写的"},{"start":177.495,"end":200.669,"text":"所以换句话说这个有效的比率是38%那这显示出什么部长你回答你觉得这显示出什么你累计发出了1049万张可是有效期限内到目前只有406万张等于只有38%不到四成的人"},{"start":201.249,"end":225.44,"text":"他愿意续用你知道委员的意思我们当然不会以这样的数目字为满足可是委员可以听所以你知道民众的决定就是他们不想用不续办不好用但是问题他是代表一个政府在处理事情的公正跟公信能力那这个部分表示说我们在服务品质上是有提升只是他的数量是下降的"},{"start":225.84,"end":246.427,"text":"那既然數量下降的話我們朝著數量怎麼樣增加會比較好那因為我們很少去外面做這樣的一個宣導或宣傳對啊為什麼不宣導我後面也確實要講多支持我們預算讓我們做媒宣啊我們媒宣去年被砍掉三成以上幾乎什麼樣子的功能都沒有辦法處理不要只有講砍因為你們服邊"},{"start":249.328,"end":275.928,"text":"这个增加了这么多所以我们才等于说准结经费你还是有得宣传嘛那所以在这边我们要继续讲这表示你的自然人凭证对民众缺乏吸引力而且便利性不足嘛所以大家才不用可是我们也看到每年我们内政部有关这个自然人凭证的这个作业及管理费用一年也要四千万左右"},{"start":276.608,"end":304.786,"text":"你这个系统一直在维护可是你却没有办法让民众爱用这点就是我们政府要加强的我想部长也很认同所以我们未来继续来加强我们不能发卡千万张然后六成不续办那这样子就表示我们这个产品的便利性出了问题那接着本席再请教部长部长您是否了解在报税这件事上民众最爱用的"},{"start":305.626,"end":331.359,"text":"方式是什么用什么来报税用手机会是最方便我听到司长讲司长你很了解就是行动电话认证对然后这第一名他有356万件第二名是健保卡加密码所以你看民众宁可用手机好手机方便我们带着就算他健保卡加密码都比我们自然人凭证多"},{"start":332.299,"end":346.478,"text":"所以这一块部长刚刚有讲宣导跟推广其实你除了宣导你推广很多时候你这个推广不是上对下而是你要真正有效的请问你们目标客群到底是谁你有没有设定好"},{"start":347.205,"end":362.028,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們自然憑證是根據ISO29115的標準所以才達到EOL至少Label3的標準那這個健保卡跟那個行動號碼是沒有"},{"start":363.35,"end":387.31,"text":"不要再講這個重點是我們要怎麼樣更便民讓民眾愛用你講的沒錯你這個ISO它非常的嚴謹而且我們等於是這個比較安全你的意思是這樣那既然安全民眾都不用然後你都讓民眾去用那個不安全的這點就是我們要加強的我們現在在推手機及憑證就是手機上面就是憑證了"},{"start":388.752,"end":411.411,"text":"因為晶片憑證上面就要去臨櫃去申請要250塊他們手機憑證只要30塊所以我們希望在一個會期半年後我們可以看到能夠有成果很快的本席要再請教部長少子高齡化已經是國安的危機所以本席想請教劉部長現在國籍法的修法我們"},{"start":414.159,"end":437.18,"text":"這個認為是引進心血留住人才的關鍵那部長您皺了眉頭是怎麼樣這個國籍法的修正草案現在有沒有最新進度我們內政部不是有在演你國籍法的部分我們目前都是採取的管理機制大概就是以中華民國國民的身份證件這樣的一個處理方向"},{"start":437.72,"end":463.499,"text":"但是您剛有串聯到說是少子化跟高齡化我就比較不清楚少子化跟高齡化跟國籍法有什麼關係就是請委員再明示一下我們指的就是我們人才還有我們有一些心血那個您的幕僚有在跟您說明現在我主要要問的是我們內政部對國籍法的這個修法是不是現在有在進行"},{"start":464.707,"end":481.576,"text":"都没有目前没有收到行政院的指示所以我们并没有朝这方向那如果委员提到是有关劳动力完全没有着手进行如果您提到有关劳动力的揽财的部分的话大致上是放在我们的移民署方面所以不是在我们这不是国际法"},{"start":482.506,"end":502.223,"text":"那我们内政部也没有针对我们人才类别还有数量都没有移民的部分就是说如果您讲的是外国的移民到台湾来的话规划会规划回来的规划是在国际法但是如果是揽财的部分第一个是国发会还有揽财专法"},{"start":504.245,"end":517.331,"text":"對 所以我問的是國籍法你剛剛不是說規劃是規劃是負責規劃但是規劃第一個就是他要麼就是婚姻移民要麼就是他的小孩只是規劃取得國籍的這個方式 對"},{"start":518.621,"end":536.329,"text":"那所以我想了解我們這個現行的規劃程序常常被反映非常的冗長那財力證明還有等規定對弱勢移民不友善那我們請問你們有掌握最近三年規劃案件的平均審查時間是多久嗎"},{"start":538.034,"end":563.659,"text":"如果相关的文件齐备我们其实会很快就核准很快是吧还是你会后提供近三年规划案件平均审查的时间所以现在针对这个部分我们没有在修国籍法目前没有没有好没关系那我们之后再找你们相关单位讨论好谢谢谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165124","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2567fbb091a07085ed470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c80161a9ac653e9315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:38:28 - 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請老保證 請老保證 請老保證 請老保證 請老保證 請老保證"},{"start":30.936,"end":37.119,"text":"已經付多少錢了 補充補充補充喝油蔥 開記者會那時候給我們吐槽他說 哇 十幾個我開兩月八千萬就好幾個了你現在說已經補充了"},{"start":56.714,"end":78.702,"text":"這八個還不包括我們機械我們買的嘛我們機械的導入就三月九成幾萬是不是導入 你說本來是東元電機的部分嗎沒有沒有 那機械我們另外出一枚喔是那是這樣 這部分你可能比較不清楚 我跟你說"},{"start":79.591,"end":96.526,"text":"不可以把雙數當成非數的辦,不要這樣啦我們合計就合計,改當白白,那就是屬性嘛不然可以去說,說什麼我開兩億八千萬就隆重把這事情解決啦不需要把我們省十幾億,你聽到嗎?屬性不是啊這錢都開了,你幾年多,還負擬多少錢?幾年多,還負擬,白送的沒剩啊,兩億八千萬沒剩啊"},{"start":105.253,"end":120.504,"text":"你再賦予多少錢 他說要維持多少的運轉 機械這樣子 我們這邊的資訊就是代支付的部分加上以支付9.38所以9.38扣掉8.02的話 應該是1.361億3千幾萬就對了對 連勞 還有加上政策中止的話 還會有11億多11億多"},{"start":142.979,"end":156.103,"text":"這個案件中止就對了 我們還要付多少錢三億多三億多 但是如果沒有中止就對了 我們每一年都要付多少錢沒有中止"},{"start":156.741,"end":173.189,"text":"如果沒有還沒中時前我們現在為了這個機械的低度運轉啊我可不可以請市長跟您回應一下好不好是跟委員報告因為現在有關中運廠的部分我們大概每年會針對折舊的部分編列4800萬所以每年要付4800萬"},{"start":177.611,"end":197.183,"text":"那是 十三嘛 每一年嘛對 那個設備折舊的部分那最低維運的好 沒關係啦一千萬萬 去年我請教 這樣這件案件中他常常說的裴樂夫人又責兵阿婆要娶多個妻子 又負責很多啊 當然是那個臨保長跟我們說他開兩個八千萬都跟事情解決啦我想老保長你是不會有用這種態度來面對事情我個人對你的理解"},{"start":205.64,"end":207.761,"text":"那像這個補充到經營輸掉這個詐騙 輸掉很可惜 台灣 坦白講這個查拉布的科技比我們進步得快詐騙現在已經蛻變到什麼程度 你知道嗎三合一啊 你知道嗎 我們這個民意代表的服務處每次接收到這個事情 現在多惡劣"},{"start":232.335,"end":236.616,"text":"現在聽說大陸這些人都專行啊 不用怕遲遲的穿啊都穿進去用便宜的比較快的 沒錯嗎?有沒有這個趨勢?有 我們現在發現大概有這個趨勢好 來詐騙"},{"start":249.313,"end":266.077,"text":"線上博弈地下錢莊變成三合一這個事情你知不知道你知道因為這個本來都是結合在一起的這都結合在一起的我每次我問起來差不多大家毫無錯誤他去線上博弈省三萬現在再來叫五萬他叫一個人叫他叫一個 要再生理學現在要討這條錢 叫另外一個叫他五萬變八萬 八萬變十六萬"},{"start":281.406,"end":288.873,"text":"我想這個都是複合式的犯罪那就是詐欺博弈洗錢這個是多結合在一起的"},{"start":290.315,"end":310.192,"text":"都夾到頭上我們抓也是都抓到這三個也是都抓到了抓到了我們現在抓大概都是也是在抓這樣的一個不是只有單一的這都複合式的犯罪包括抓炸雞也可以抓到這個地下錢莊也抓到洗錢的就水房的這個嘛我們這樣避開這裡讓它避免了阿簽的這裡線上有本票有什麼這樣這裡錢要怎麼省"},{"start":318.137,"end":332.44,"text":"那像這些大概就是說這個他這個被害的這個狀況大概我們會有幾個方式這個在前面不會成立啦他覺得真的去面對這兩三百萬一兩百萬四五百萬的節目這個應該不是我們的範疇可能要法律上來做一個界定啦要調查才能界定啦我是希望說經濟署在辦這些案件的時候"},{"start":344.639,"end":352.084,"text":"因為這重來卡到訴訟 訴訟就卡到這個被害人要去卡臨這個罪犯啊沒有啊所以你這個部分如果是在那個詐騙的流程把這裡都有 執行 甚至連你提供的司法部門喔這個我們一定會提供有可能這個被害者他就不用負擔那麼多沒有 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有請我們劉部長還有消防署的蕭署長請保定請消防署長委員好部長好 署長部長 我想我們這個台灣我們都不希望發生這個重大的災難但是一旦遇到天災的時候除了我們的消防搜救人員之外我想我們的搜救權也扮演一個很重要的角色部長認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":28.677,"end":43.832,"text":"當然因為搜救犬他的功能非常的大而且全世界都認同李湘在我們第一線他們真的是扮演很關鍵的一個尤其是最近這個花蓮的事件我們也找到一個幾個小朋友都靠搜救犬的努力對那個小朋友6歲的小朋友"},{"start":44.281,"end":64.667,"text":"但是因為這邊我也要幫搜救犬這個要跟他拖一個眼睛部長我們過去這個屏東縣有8隻搜救犬一年的預算13萬多但是因為這個包含飼料也好注射也好訓練器材也好這真的不夠因為屏東縣政府我們的裁員真的有限那尤其明年裁劃完之後我又減40幾億"},{"start":66.848,"end":74.978,"text":"部長 針對面臨這個不是只有屏東好幾個縣市都面臨這樣一個困境部長 這個可不可以做一個專款的一個補助機制由中央來統籌"},{"start":77.515,"end":99.601,"text":"我們來研究一下因為那個委員現在提出來第一個我們當然會支持這個方向但是需要多少經費可能要細算才會知道要盤點一下對如果是消防署可以容納的部分我們當然會樂觀其成但是如果太高恐怕還是要地方政府因為屏東縣政府當然是他的財政的這個比例比較低一點"},{"start":100.461,"end":111.554,"text":"但是你说像台北市或新北市的话可能就比较不需要但是全国的搜救犬对对对所以我想这个部分是不是给我们一点时间我们来检讨一下看怎么样来协助"},{"start":112.062,"end":140.688,"text":"部長因為我知道像我很多的好朋友他自己在做一鍋生意都主動每個月都捐款來幫這些這個搜救犬要吃了給他們吃因為那個錢不夠開啦包括我們的消防隊員也都自掏腰包也很多啊我想這個是要列一個很重要的一個議題喔讓我們這個消防這個搜救犬喔也要給他們一個很驕傲的一個環境啦這樣好不好那另外好那個署長請問接著請那個國家公園署王署長還有我們新上任的許書國許署長"},{"start":150.525,"end":170.821,"text":"我想這個國家公務員署的升格我們都樂觀其成尤其署長是第一任的國家公務員署的署長署長這個過去也是都在訓練毫不介顧這次再度這個恭喜他擔任署長但是這個這是一個榮耀也是一個重責大任我想過去這個部長"},{"start":173.203,"end":193.955,"text":"肯定國家公園是我們台灣第一座的國家公園有一定的歷史定位過去我們在生態保育這點做得很好但是隨著時空時代變遷時空背景不一樣我想除了生態之外我們觀光的發展應該也是要併重所以我想過去肯管處被人家詬病的就是"},{"start":194.605,"end":205.786,"text":"關掉太多 又沒有再關動物所以現在造成米花也好 梅花路 造成我們的農作物有夠嚴重署長 針對這個部分你有什麼看法"},{"start":209.704,"end":227.333,"text":"那個梅花路我們真的是保育的很好所以現在目前其實數量在平那個那個整個恆春半島事實上這個數量事實上是有超過一些啦當然對於農作物這邊也有一些有一些跑到我們的農民那我們每一年事實上除了"},{"start":228.853,"end":248.253,"text":"還是要加強這個微補還有加強那個整個呼籲區的一個誘引誘導他到呼籲區進來另外針對於對農民那個農作物的一個損害的話我們都有一個補償那最近這幾年大概數量也不是很多一年大概是平均大概四件到五件的一個農損的一個補償"},{"start":251.397,"end":253.16,"text":"我想我們會持續來監控數據有點失真吧應該不止吧那個112年是比較多有十幾件那最近這兩年確實是件數會少一點"},{"start":262.168,"end":287.571,"text":"那我跟委員報告我今年開始已經有編一些預算我們作為監控的部分會再強力來監控會再委託那也跟平科大這邊的陳教授這邊來做一個決議的這一這一塊的一個研發然後來看看能不能來控制這個數量這個除了農損之外其實因為部長我跟您報告一下因為過去每個都在我們的公路也"},{"start":288.083,"end":302.109,"text":"跑來跑去 串來串去 也造成很多的交通事故我想要怎麼樣去做一個有效的一個防範 可能還是要找出一些對策阿高的部分 破壞性更大我們的紅龍果 黑豆都吃得沒辦法真的非常的嚴重其實我上任的時候有跟農業部相關的單位都有開會討論過我們也是共同 大家兩個部會共同來討論怎麼去來控制這個數量"},{"start":316.926,"end":342.911,"text":"另外我想還有一個很重要的議題要請部長幫忙因為過去部長有去過墾丁應該你都很熟的嘛那因為過去我們墾丁國家公園一年過去都好幾百萬人次啊現在為什麼這幾年沒有恢復回來我想除了這個當然我們的觀光消費這是一個另外一個議題但是我自己去了熊媽展示館或者去沙島我們這些設備都很古啊都沒有維修"},{"start":343.476,"end":359.066,"text":"那肯管處過去經費不足我想這個新上任的處長應該要針對這些的我們的自己的展示館怎麼做生態教育 怎麼樣做環境維護應該要有一些新的想法 不能都這麼熟成啊 部長願不願意支持我們的案子"},{"start":360.37,"end":381.15,"text":"那個如果你很肯定處長的話要不要讓他講一下他的想法好不好謝謝委員我想球馬展示館其實對恆春半島的一個一個貢獻其實是非常大的因為早期恆春"},{"start":382.369,"end":396.513,"text":"主要是以生產熊馬為主所以帶動很多的經濟所以我們在那邊設了一個展示館最主要是希望能夠把這樣的一個早期的一個經濟活動能夠有一些歷史的一些回顧那當然因為熊馬展示館"},{"start":398.838,"end":422.522,"text":"我們是沿用以前那個試驗所的一些房舍所以是比較老舊的那可是周邊所以你居然沒有下車那房子到處都快要垂下來了是是是所以這個部分我們會編列經費來做重新的一個規劃那包括停車場旁邊的一個空地我們希望能夠配合目前國人的一個油氣習慣來規劃一些露營區來帶動那個地方的一個發展"},{"start":426.853,"end":454.016,"text":"這個我想你們再看一下你們自己的那個數據一年200多萬的遊客你們把海生館一年將近100萬放進來靠在這100萬你們剩多少人你們看一下你們自己的數據就很清楚了真的要有新的作為新的創新新的環境新的設備新的做法我想帶動這個不是只有做生態觀光發展應該要並重這個是我對新處長的期待未來還有更多事情我會再找處長再談一下好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":456.284,"end":463.692,"text":"謝謝我們感謝徐富奎委員執行我們請謝榮介委員執行"}]}},{"id":"165122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2edae9d86714196aed470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"12:23:49 - 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那個交通衝擊評估"},{"start":111.997,"end":130.072,"text":"有在重做 那所以這個部分我們會安排在下個月會開始來審查這樣我只不過是要了解一下說到底他為什麼那麼多次都沒有進展對 因為中間有幾個困難點那這樣我了解 謝謝啊 署長你請回來我現在來請警政署署長跟內政部署長那個"},{"start":132.352,"end":150.741,"text":"因為打詐儀表板顯示這個114年1到10月民眾通報這個整個財產損失的金額高達762億元那我請問內政部是否需要修法來提高這個詐騙的處罰你認為有沒有需要"},{"start":151.229,"end":157.793,"text":"我個人認為有需要因為去年這個打造中華企業才通過我們經過這個期端的這個觀察覺得就是有一些詐騙的這個金額我們當時如果說比500萬的話大概是3到"},{"start":167.058,"end":184.39,"text":"3到10年嘛如果1大概5年到12年那我們覺得這個金額可以往下降就是用重罰的方式來做一個重罰我認為沒有用啦那個一警政府你是不是覺得這個警察的努力偵辦偵辦這些這個查集的詐欺問題是判刑過輕嘛讓詐團交保以後甚至於他要繼續作案因為你判刑太輕了啊"},{"start":195.217,"end":207.72,"text":"那就是說這個法的這個刑度就是要定高那因為有下限跟有下限跟上限所以有時候就是判刑的結果有些是不符人民的這個期待因為確實那個詐騙你看很多家庭因為這樣受詐到最後甚至於母女都走入絕路甚至於很多人他受不了就走上絕路"},{"start":221.104,"end":232.521,"text":"我們也希望這個造房條例請委員支持啦我們絕對支持啦我認為這個要重判甚至於我認為再加邊刑我跟你講這個只要加邊刑那個不是人權的問題啦我跟你講那些都是保護壞人啦"},{"start":237.287,"end":264.177,"text":"普化現金一萬元從今天開始要依照身份證字號的尾數進行分流來上網登記最慢明年4月30都可以登記領取那有許多銀行也推出一些加碼抽獎的活動本期是提醒內政部跟警政署165的反詐騙要從源頭封鎖要封鎖可疑的這些網站或帳號避免民眾受騙上當"},{"start":265.177,"end":286.706,"text":"委員這個部分就是官方的這個帳號只有1萬點擊分點擊其他的帳號都是自繳的這個我們如果巡邏發現到這個一定會下交貨解析對啊我認為這個很重要我們會從源頭來處理數位發展部在搞什麼我真的看不懂其實那個部分一點功能都沒有了"},{"start":287.626,"end":301.051,"text":"我們是針對問題 今天是要解決問題我們會從源頭來 數位發展部一開始花了兩百多億結果越炸越嚴重 老百姓是很憤怒政府要有作為 署長 柏中你的想法"},{"start":304.795,"end":331.648,"text":"我們這次炸房條例要修嚴啦包括我們最近一個案例就是一個車手 因為車手都是判刑太輕可是是根據他拿到兩千塊就給他判個三個月甚至緩刑但是現在有個車手被判了十二年那是法官判的所以表示說我們炸房條例裡面要重罰這個部分我們完全支持我認為說你們提出來我相信我們立法院每個同仁絕對會力挺支持"},{"start":332.188,"end":349.932,"text":"因為你那個等於是縱容嘛上次我看到他那個引渡回來結果下了飛機全部都放掉歷歷在目對不對我認為這是很嚴重的問題而且你看台灣現在變成詐騙王國我們希望站在就是維護公權力的立場署長也好部長也好"},{"start":357.774,"end":366.283,"text":"一定要嚴苛的該增加刑期該增加判包括那些車手都不能放啦我認為要加重啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d293e31877ac9d948ad470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:16:23 - 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那個是在那個永德段啊永德段那個新北市政府他們已經變更了"},{"start":324.133,"end":339.661,"text":"本來是屬於這個我們的國防部的用地然後呢他現在已經把它變更成機關及社會福利設施用地了還有這一塊啊而且這一塊面積是1.5公頃如果蓋好的話可以提供一千戶左右的社會住宅這塊有落實掉了嗎應該沒有那麼多這個部分我來了解好沒有關係我是說有這一塊地但是目前遇到一些問題署長知道嗎"},{"start":348.902,"end":371.491,"text":"可能我們來瞭解看市政府這邊是不是有提出來什麼樣的一個需求你在看署長好像不太知道這一塊那你去了解一下因為這一塊其實已經那個變更基地已經變更了我知道我知道是舊有的那一塊就原有的那一塊那個在就在那個在中正北路上對對對對對這一塊有印象因為當時是因為外面那一個綠地"},{"start":375.052,"end":401.287,"text":"有一個綠地的問題還有一些私有但不多私有不多因為租入中心有架構要去進行架構這個你來了解一下然後給我回報一下進度好不好因為地方有這個需求因為當時後來因為那個綠地要進出的那個問題太大因為當時連新北市政府的那個城鄉局的都市設計都覺得那一塊綠地要做為進出口困難度很高那所以當時有問題有困難我們試著去解決啊好"},{"start":404.368,"end":427.1,"text":"那既然有這麼大一塊地的話那當然它是有綠地那可是現在那個地木也變根了嘛因為那塊地木很早就變但是因為後來要執行的時候就發現那個綠地要做出口太難了解一下然後也跟我說明一下問題在哪裡要怎麼去解決那能不能在這幾年來開始來動工好不好好因為畢竟"},{"start":427.83,"end":432.36,"text":"那一塊是三重最最後一塊能拿到比較大面積土地的地方"}]}},{"id":"165120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2ebb4a69922181ff2d470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c5217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:09:38 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主席我們有請劉世芳 劉部長請安保長委員好 部長好今天是內政部的業務專報我有特別看了業務專報的內容那麼我知道其實部長昨天在詢答的時候那麼好多位委員都有特別問到了就是有關於到底這個所謂的假偷渡真滲透到底我們在移民法規當中如何把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":27.831,"end":43.101,"text":"那麼其實這一位軟性中國籍人士跟另外一位彰性的中國籍人士他們所利用的這個漏洞的部分我想就是因為我們現行的法規有所不足在10月29號的時候我在國防外交委員會當時我曾經質詢過這個蔡明彥就是國安局局長當時他的強調就是說因為這是個案"},{"start":54.768,"end":58.831,"text":"那每一個個案狀況不一樣但是其實我相信部長現在非常理解就是這兩個個案他起了示範性的作用為什麼呢因為這一位軟性的中國籍人士跟後續媒體在報導的這位張姓的中國籍人士他們不只是利用這個漏洞甚至於在收容期滿之後在"},{"start":77.506,"end":97.563,"text":"全國啪啪噪還接受媒體訪問甚至於這個後面這一位張姓的中國籍人士還在抖音小紅書上面示範教學雖然說他現在已經把相關內容撤下來了但是可以看得到這似乎就是變成真的把這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":100.866,"end":120.948,"text":"讓中國如果想要滲透台灣的時候找到了另外一個橋門那我其實在這一次我們的業務報告當中我發現31頁當好就是入出國籍移民的相關業務但是可能是時間上來不及啦並沒有把這個部分放進你們年度的所謂報告當中那麼等一下是不是可以請"},{"start":122.15,"end":142.808,"text":"部長來特別的來回應一下這個部分另外就是其實本席已經提交了一個就是入出國籍移民法當中的修正案那我在這個修正案當中是特別加入了所謂的就是第二項的第七條第二項的第七款就是明定主管機關如果認為"},{"start":143.669,"end":153.733,"text":"有危害國家安全跟社會安定之餘的時候就可以依照相關的規定來修訂第四項 也就是說可以針對國安局長蔡明彥所講的所謂的個案針對他們在收容期滿之後是不是可以立刻做出有危害國家安全或是國家疑慮的部分那當然這只是本席個人的提案但是我希望這個提案能夠先做一個帶頭"},{"start":173.041,"end":179.903,"text":"所謂拋磚引玉又或者是帶頭的效應我希望內政部移民署能夠緊速的透過修法的方式把這個漏洞補起來謝謝委員的指教委員所提到假偷渡真滲透確實沒有錯在這次我們移民法在有關處理這些收容安置或是替代處分的人出現漏洞"},{"start":196.388,"end":217.573,"text":"那包括院長昨天也特別指示就說這些呢屬於在收容期間在台灣趴趴照甚至可以用社群的網路啊來推廣一些可能跟國家安全疑慮相關的部分我們要從嚴來禁止但是修法確實是一個可以堵漏洞的方向但是這個修法呢我們當然支持委員所提到的移民法的第38條或者是相關的規範但是我們要跟陸委會的兩岸人民關係條例一起"},{"start":222.974,"end":246.497,"text":"來共同處理這樣子才有可能是因為我們都知道我們境外敵對勢力大致上還是來自於中國境內比較多那其他的收容安置也有其他的外國籍外國籍當然也在修法的方向之列所以這個部分我想我們會全力來支持而且我們會在短時間之內就把入出國移民法會再跟陸委會一起協商之後推出這個法案的修正"},{"start":246.857,"end":258.222,"text":"好謝謝部長的回應這感受到就其實我們真的要把這個漏洞補起來因為就像您所說的本席其實也有提出兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案就是第18條的部分所以說我希望這個配套我們能夠儘速來處理把它也列為就是接下來內政部的重點的內容因為其實我知道內政部對於這個有關於入住境的管理的部分當然肩負重任因為這個部分確實如果一旦"},{"start":274.389,"end":282.095,"text":"漏洞已開而且已經達到了這個示範作用的時候我們就要真的要趕快的動起來另外一個因為時間有限我要特別來問到有關於就是柬埔寨的部分因為我們知道美國針對這個太子集團的部分當然檢調已經在11月4號已經動起來了但是剛剛我在外交委員會的時候我也特別問了林佳龍部長"},{"start":297.847,"end":323.083,"text":"就是有關於我們因為鼓勵新南向或者是希望新南向的朋友能夠到台灣來消費來投資然後來認識台灣來帶動經濟這個當然我們都覺得OK只是我們也都知道有關於打詐的部分現在很多的電影甚至於很多的不只是電影是真實事件當中東南亞國家確實現在就是來自於中國的詐騙集團或者是詐騙混行"},{"start":326.405,"end":336.569,"text":"那麼在這個部分就有關於柬埔寨的免簽入出境的部分那麼外交部也認為說他們會做一些修正那麼內政部這裡是不是也會跟外交部來做討論因為我看到您的報告當中其實有特別提到宏觀計畫的部分顯然內政部也有注意到這個相關的問題就是如果東南亞的詐騙高層因為我們可以有一個所謂的免簽的待遇讓他們可以如入無人之境的進出台灣那麼這個是不是我們要必須檢討的部分"},{"start":355.978,"end":372.753,"text":"對謝謝委員的指教那個我跟其他委員有提到過這個跟太子集團相關的這些人其實他們進來又出去可是他們當時不一定是提供柬埔寨的這個簽證因為他可能有兩國或三國的身份證那我們會從國家安全的觀點來看有條件式的免簽"},{"start":374.234,"end":386.064,"text":"確實是要列入我們在檢討的一個觀點尤其是前奏國際詐騙犯然後在台灣進出好像如入無人之境我想這個會讓人覺得說台灣是不是在這個國門洞開那這個部分我們會來加強檢討好 謝謝辛苦"}]}},{"id":"17011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17011","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e16bff821a9cb407d8be8718c83de216783051bafb051454bb1bb7ae564ef7bf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：審查「使用牌照稅法」29案：（僅詢答）\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員陳超明等18人、委員羅明才等20人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等27人、委員許宇甄等22人、委員邱若華等17人、委員林俊憲等26人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員李彥秀等16人、委員蘇清泉等18人、委員徐欣瑩等24人、委員郭昱晴等19人、委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員郭國文等18人、委員吳沛憶等17人、委員葛如鈞等16人、委員沈發惠等17人、委員林思銘等22人、委員賴士葆等25人、委員黃健豪等20人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案」等24案。【後2案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員廖先翔等17人擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員牛煦庭等17人、委員鍾佳濱等16人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正草案」等2案。【後1案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n五、本院委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「使用牌照稅法第七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-05T08:40:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T13:03:00+08:00","duration":15753,"影片長度":"04:22:33","委員發言時間":"08:40:27 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林楚英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會議書面答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1300.601,"end":1316.23,"text":"因為在場委員位足法定人數我們議事錄占不確定那我們現在介紹在場委員吳秉瑞好那我們請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":1317.336,"end":1331.73,"text":"審查使用牌照稅法二十九案今日請詢答一行政院函請審議本院委員邱振軍等十九人委員陳昌明等十八人委員羅文才等二十人委員廖偉祥等十九人委員楊瓊英等二十七人委員徐宇貞等二十二人"},{"start":1332.19,"end":1347.886,"text":"委員邱若驊等17人委員林俊憲等26人委員王宏偉等19人委員李彥秀等16人委員蘇清泉等18人委員徐欣盈等24人委員郭育晴等19人委員王美惠等19人委員李昆城等18人委員羅廷偉等17人"},{"start":1348.667,"end":1363.764,"text":"委員郭國文等18人委員吳佩奕等17人委員葛如君等16人委員沈發慧等17人委員林詩敏等22人委員賴世寶等25人委員黃建豪等20人分別擬據使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案等24案"},{"start":1364.665,"end":1391.648,"text":"二本院台灣民眾黨團擬拒使用牌照稅法第五條及第七條條文修正草案案三委員廖先祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第五條及第38條條文修正草案案四委員牛許廷等17人委員鍾嘉斌等16人分別擬拒使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正草案等二案五委員廖偉祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第七條及第38條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1394.69,"end":1417.917,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在介紹我們在場委員吳秉瑞 吳委員王宏威 王委員我們今天與會的政府官員我們這個地方稅務局也來了很多人我們先介紹我們中央財政部部長莊翠雲 張部長歡迎部長"},{"start":1423.871,"end":1448.748,"text":"法治處姚瑩瑤處長國庫署的陳柏成署長複稅署宋秀玲宋署長官務署彭英偉彭署長國有財產署曾國基曾署長財政資訊中心謝明峰謝副主任"},{"start":1451.926,"end":1477.261,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理師趙敬偉 趙專門委員經濟部產發署邱求惠 邱署長能源署鄭如敏 鄭副組長環境部大氣環境師呂承翔 檢任計政衛福部長期照顧師吳希文 吳副市長"},{"start":1480.495,"end":1501.646,"text":"社家屬游怡君游組長法務部法治師楊時宇調部辦事檢察官 歡迎你台北市政府財政局張雅惠副局長 歡迎新北市陳榮貴陳局長 歡迎"},{"start":1505.947,"end":1533.815,"text":"桃園市地方稅務局謝於林 謝副局長 歡迎台中市政府地方稅務局夏錦秀 夏副局長 歡迎台南市政府財政稅務局李文文 李專門委員 歡迎高雄市稅捐處吳秀元副處長 歡迎你新竹縣政府的稅務局黃國峰 黃局長 歡迎"},{"start":1537.475,"end":1558.828,"text":"苗栗縣政府稅務局吳芳珍吳副局長 歡迎南投縣政府財政處林靜娟副處長 歡迎彰化縣地方稅務局楊素柱楊副局長 歡迎還有南投縣稅務局的林信齊副局長 歡迎"},{"start":1563.553,"end":1580.604,"text":"雲林縣稅務局陳敏政秘書介紹過嘉義縣財政稅務局王美義王副局長 歡迎屏東縣政府財稅局康國書副局長 歡迎你宜蘭縣政府財政稅務局劉富美局長 歡迎"},{"start":1590.848,"end":1615.453,"text":"花蓮縣地方稅務局黃淑梅副局長 歡迎你台東縣稅務局鄭春柱代理局長 歡迎澎湖縣政府稅務局林鴻成局長 歡迎基隆市稅務局歐秋霞局長 歡迎新竹市稅務局黃桂梅副局長 歡迎你"},{"start":1617.438,"end":1620.861,"text":"嘉義市政府財政稅務局圖美娟圖副局長歡迎 謝謝"},{"start":1627.615,"end":1647.209,"text":"本次會議安排審查行政院判決審議委員邱正軍等19人羅明才等20人分別擬據使用牌照稅法第5條修正草案等24案還有台灣民眾黨團擬據使用牌照稅法第5條及第7條文修正草案"},{"start":1648.03,"end":1671.836,"text":"委員廖先祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第5條第38條條文修正草案委員劉許廷等17人委員鍾嘉斌等16人分別擬拒使用牌照稅法第7條條文修正草案2案委員廖偉祥等17人擬拒使用牌照稅法第7條及第38條條文修正草案等29案"},{"start":1674.237,"end":1692.884,"text":"將先請提案黨團代表委員說明提案要此後我們再請財政部長 莊部長說明回應黨團及委員的提案內容先請台灣民眾黨的代表黃珊珊委員不在"},{"start":1695.394,"end":1720.926,"text":"羅明財委員也不在李燕秀委員也不在李昆城委員也不在郭國榮委員也不在賴思寶委員也不在鍾嘉斌委員不在邱振軍委員不在陳昌明委員不在廖偉翔委員不在楊瓊瑩委員不在徐益臻委員不在邱若驊委員不在林俊憲委員不在下面請王宏威委員來做提案說明"},{"start":1729.636,"end":1743.989,"text":"好謝謝主席還有現場的各位委員還有來自於我們中央和地方的各位官員我們今天在討論使用牌照稅法的一個修正主要是針對電動車輛的一個牌照稅的優惠來繼續延長那根據統計我們這個電動車"},{"start":1754.588,"end":1768.353,"text":"那樣免徵牌照稅的政策實施以來全台的電動車確實大幅的成長到了114年底為止已經突破了9.7萬輛然後電動機車也增加了到77.5萬輛所以也顯示民眾對於電動車接受的程度顯著的提高"},{"start":1779.016,"end":1789.784,"text":"但是我們基本上我們國家的政策從一個長遠的一個能源政策還有環保的政策我們仍然希望能夠繼續讓電動車的普及率能夠繼續的延長"},{"start":1794.708,"end":1822.856,"text":"所以在今天本席提出来的使用牌照税法的第5条条文修正草案是要把延长电动车辆的免征使用牌照税的优惠期限能够延长到119年的12月31号那么希望能够继续的来推动国人能够提高电动车电动汽车跟电动机车"},{"start":1823.516,"end":1844.276,"text":"那另外呢在这里呢也特别提一下牌照税因为它是属于地方税那当然我们基于政策能够希望让牌照税电动车免牌照税然后延长但是呢我觉得未来呢我们也应该这样子一再的延长之后呢"},{"start":1844.716,"end":1860.442,"text":"如果對於地方的稅收有所影響的時候其實中央也應該要有一個補助地方的辦法我想這樣的一個政策不應該只是完全由地方政府來買單這個是我們在修法的過程裡面我覺得也應該去納入討論的以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝王宏偉委員"},{"start":1872.443,"end":1886.233,"text":"我們先確定議事錄 請問在場的委員對於上次會議議事錄有無異議沒有 我們議事錄確定接下來我們請李彥秀委員做提案說明"},{"start":1898.52,"end":1912.723,"text":"謝謝召委我們今天要審查使用牌照稅法第五條的修正草案就是為了我們台灣接下來要淨零減碳的目標按下加速鍵這次修法的目的我們希望從原來現行電動車免徵使用牌照稅的優惠本來是在114年12月31號到期我主張未來要把租稅的優惠延長到110"},{"start":1925.127,"end":1946.32,"text":"2019年的12月31号只是为了我们台湾国家我们国家能源转型的运具电动化的政策同步的衔接根据国际能源署的统计2024年全年全球销售电动车的比例达到20%但是我们从数据上也可以看到台湾本年度电动车的销售占比却只有7.6%"},{"start":1948.001,"end":1970.389,"text":"跟國際其實相差大概至少相差了三倍以上顯見遠低於全球平均的比例也跟國發會原來設定2025年電動車佔比達到20%其實相差許多所以在這次修法上我們希望透過政策的調整延長我們租稅的優惠可以達到民眾購買電動車的意願以上 謝謝好 謝謝李燕秀委員"},{"start":1976.229,"end":1983.089,"text":"接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來請徐欣英委員做提案說明"},{"start":1993.152,"end":2011.862,"text":"主席各位官員各位委員同仁大家好我們今天提案修正使用牌照稅法目標是為了延長免稅增設公平推動新能源車達成淨零排放是我們國家刻不容緩的永續發展目標"},{"start":2013.243,"end":2035.316,"text":"然而目前普及率嚴重的過低到去年底我們全台電動車的佔比只有1.15%機車也只有5.29%用來鼓勵換車的牌照稅免徵優惠下個月也就是12月31日就要到期了"},{"start":2035.996,"end":2051.126,"text":"贸然停止这项政策诱因将重创市场不利近邻目标所以我们主张免税优惠延长5年至民国119年底以稳定市场"},{"start":2051.966,"end":2076.525,"text":"预期有效刺激买气加速产业的技术创新另外现行制度下平价电动车与千万电动超跑同样免税并不公平我们认为租税优惠应该精准的用在扩大普及而不是无差别的补贴高性能的奢侈品因此我们主张增设排付条款"},{"start":2078.079,"end":2103.576,"text":"參照燃油車課稅的精神馬達最大馬力超過262HP或是265.9PS的高性能電動車不予免徵恢復課稅高性能車輛對道路資源需求更高課稅才符合使用者付費公平總結來說本案 本提案兼顧了環境永續"},{"start":2104.517,"end":2126.104,"text":"延長免稅 鼓勵中低功率節能車款的普及還有社會正義 增設馬力門檻讓高性能豪華車款回歸稅制那懇請各位委員同仁大家支持我們共同為台灣的交通轉型與永續未來一起努力 謝謝好 我們謝謝徐姓委員接下來請羅廷維委員"},{"start":2134.261,"end":2135.185,"text":"好 时间两分钟"},{"start":2139.855,"end":2155.158,"text":"好 謝謝主席提案說明我想為推動綠色交通以及並且降低化石燃料的一個使用政府近年來積極的就在透過多元的政策工具希望鼓勵民眾能夠選購電動車輛以促進車輛的一個電動化並且減碳量電動車儲能改善都市的一個空氣品質"},{"start":2166.681,"end":2192.338,"text":"降低噪音外我們亦有助於整個綠色交通的部件環境之建構然而我國電動車在發展階段當中這個是你我皆知的若於短期內終止免稅的一個措施我想一定會影響到整個政策的誘因進而不利到整個減碳的目標持續的一個推動"},{"start":2193.218,"end":2220.996,"text":"我們不是只是要照顧電動車業而是整個你我的環境要減碳所以為延續整個政策的一貫性特你去在這一次的使用牌照稅法的第五條條文修正我們希望比照新購小型汽機車在減貨物稅的一個限期的一個規定建議延長限轄市政府"},{"start":2221.696,"end":2248.665,"text":"以及政府能夠電動車的一個車輛減免稅增的使用牌照期限延長5年到119年12月31日以維持政策的一個延續跟節能減碳的一個政策 以上好 謝謝羅廷維委員接下來我們請陳超明委員做提案說明"},{"start":2259.272,"end":2275.537,"text":"本席委員陳昌明等18人年紀使用牌照稅法第五條修正草案的提案說明有建議區後變遷因應第四條明確規定國家溫室氣體長期減量目標為中華民國139年溫室氣體淨量排碳化的目標"},{"start":2288.837,"end":2297.181,"text":"而目前全國汽車試輛截至114年9月底A970萬一輛到了2024年底成電動車的登記試輛將近10萬輛顯現目前電車的普及力擁有牡蠣的空間"},{"start":2314.534,"end":2334.011,"text":"但是,電動車免徵使用牌照稅的政策,將在115年1月1日恢復開徵,鑒於現階段我國電動車的普及,目標尚未達成。若貿然取消免稅的政策,恐影響民眾購買的意願,"},{"start":2337.413,"end":2364.052,"text":"因而影響我國交通運輸朝向低碳轉型的政策目標為了刺激電動車輛之推廣普及時有延長免徵期限之必要本席提案修正在延長直轄市及縣市政府對完全以電動"},{"start":2366.525,"end":2387.939,"text":"為動力之機動車輛免徵使用牌照期限5年到119年底但是最重要使用的牌照稅屬於地方稅若對於電動車輛免徵使用牌照稅將嚴重影響地方稅收因此免稅政策"},{"start":2389.361,"end":2417.69,"text":"是為了推動中央的減碳政策但是不能變向中央請客地方買單所以本席將另外提出修正動議要求中央能源主管機關補值地方政府因相對減少的稅收以維持直轄市及縣市政府稅收穩定所以在此也希望各位委員同仁全力的支持 謝謝"},{"start":2419.807,"end":2425.077,"text":"好 謝謝陳超明委員接下來請徐益臻委員做提案說明"},{"start":2435.805,"end":2452.14,"text":"主席各位官員大家早本期今天提出的是使用牌照稅第五條的修正草案在全球掀起近零轉型浪潮的此刻電動車不只是交通工具更象徵一個國家能源政策與產業升級的一個決心"},{"start":2452.68,"end":2459.082,"text":"然而電動車的普及率未達到預期充電裝不足 設置程序繁瑣家用充電設備成本高昂等問題成為民眾轉向綠能交通的最大阻力若此時讓電動車免徵使用牌照稅的政策在114年底劃下句點等同在轉型的關鍵時刻鬆手將重創整體產業的發展信心"},{"start":2475.888,"end":2489.542,"text":"而為了確保電動車推動政策不中斷並維持綠能運輸的發展動能本次修正使用牌照稅法第五條建議延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的措施五年自119年12月31日止"},{"start":2492.765,"end":2507.729,"text":"此舉不但能夠延續政策誘因更能讓產業有足夠時間完善基礎建設逐步培養穩定的市場環境避免出現政策真空期我國已設定2050年達成淨零排放的長期標準交通運輸部門是碳排放的主要來源之一"},{"start":2513.07,"end":2517.071,"text":"推動電動車普及是達成減碳的關鍵策略相較傳統的燃油車電動車具備零碳排 低污染 低噪音的優勢不僅能改善空氣的品質也能夠降低城市熱島的效應是實踐永續發展的重要一步延長免徵期限不只是單純的稅制優惠更是對綠能交通的長期投資回顧過去幾年來"},{"start":2538.675,"end":2544.338,"text":"免增政策確實是發揮了誘因帶動電動車銷售的成長也促進國內供應鏈技術加速發展從車用電池 馬達到充電設備臺灣的廠商逐步建立完整的體系如果在此時 撤除政策將會使我們的能源政策的穩定性產生盈率所以本席在這邊懇請所有的委員大家一起支持使用牌照稅延長五年的提案 謝謝"},{"start":2567.639,"end":2587.751,"text":"好 謝謝徐益臻委員接下來請郭益勤委員不在現在請王美惠委員也不在吳佩儀委員不在葛如君委員不在沈發慧委員不在黃建豪委員不在廖先祥委員不在牛許廷委員不在"},{"start":2589.451,"end":2599.379,"text":"好 我們以上提案的委員我們都已經發言完畢現在請我們財政部莊部長說明並回應各委員的提案內容請"},{"start":2607.202,"end":2624.101,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好今日貴委員會審查行政院含情審議使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案以及大院各委員還有台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具的使用牌照稅法相關條文修正草案等29案"},{"start":2625.402,"end":2649.438,"text":"本部僅做簡要的報告以及說明進行指教為了達成政府119年運具電動化階段性的目標以及實現2050淨零排放的願景那麼我們參採了114年9月5號修正公佈的貨物稅條例第12條之五的實施期限延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的實施期限5年到119年12月31日"},{"start":2652.8,"end":2665.596,"text":"大院各委員以及台灣民眾黨團所凝聚的使用牌照稅法第五條的修正草案修正意旨和行政院的版本大致是相同的僅有部分委員建議延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的年限到120年底"},{"start":2670.142,"end":2673.627,"text":"還有或者是授權行政院得延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的年限或者是電動車限額免稅等略有差異那麼為了鼓勵民眾選擇低污染車輛然後合理的兼顧車輛產業的發展"},{"start":2685.363,"end":2707.617,"text":"并且考量租税优惠那么应该达成合理的政策目的为限建议是以行政院的版本来做推动另外大院部分委员以及台湾民众党团所拟据的使用牌照税法第七条的修正草案是扩大了免征使用牌照税范围分别建议征列有同居适时的其他亲属"},{"start":2708.177,"end":2718.847,"text":"或者是年滿65歲身心障礙者的同一戶籍親屬也就不限於二親等以內的那麼身障者同性婚姻配偶的同一戶籍二親等以內親屬所有"},{"start":2720.967,"end":2724.23,"text":"共身障者使用的車輛以及共長期照顧的身心失能者使用的車輛可以免徵使用牌照稅那麼考量同居適時認定有他的困難恐怕會產生徵納的爭議另外同性婚姻的一方與他方的血親無准用民法有關撫養義務規定的情形"},{"start":2743.266,"end":2746.929,"text":"和現行使用牌照稅法規定供身障者使用車輛免稅是以同一個戶籍二親等親屬負有照顧義務的情況是不同的那另外依現行的使用牌照稅法的規定持有身心障礙證明的失能者使用的車輛"},{"start":2761.042,"end":2782.01,"text":"以及社會福利團體機構載送失能者的車輛是可以免徵使用牌照稅的而且現在對於長照服務內容已經包含了長照個案使用目的交高的基本交通需求那麼再者使用牌照稅是我們地方政府重要的收入擴大免稅的範圍恐怕會影響地方建設的財源"},{"start":2785.27,"end":2795.137,"text":"因此我們建議維持現行的條文以上報告以及說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝部長好"},{"start":2804.946,"end":2824.058,"text":"那我們現在開始詢答先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10時截止發言登記我們現在依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2845.397,"end":2869.923,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席請莊部長請莊部長委員長莊部長早有關於這個電動車101年起免徵使用牌照稅到今天這個已經14年那也"},{"start":2872.321,"end":2897.493,"text":"造成很多地方政府其實他們也是就是稅收收入遞減那本期是贊成說就是為了整個達成我們推動電動車能夠普及來淨零排碳的目標這樣的一個政策這個當然要全國全力的來推動才會達成但是"},{"start":2898.773,"end":2920.307,"text":"這個因為地方政府有一些他長期就會造成他的稅損就是稅務上的減少那要是說減了以後陳如剛剛這個陳超明陳委員有提到能用其他的方式來補貼像人員發展基金還有"},{"start":2923.488,"end":2930.99,"text":"這個溫室氣體的管理基金或者是編列公務預算來彌補這些地方的這個稅收的減少我認為是一個方式那個部長你的看法呢是委員這個質詢有關使用牌照稅是地方稅那收入當然是歸地方所有那麼在使用牌照稅法裡面是規定地方政府得"},{"start":2948.632,"end":2953.599,"text":"免徵這個使用牌照稅那這個部分當然地方政府可以依據他執行的財政狀況以及政策的一個目的來做考量那當然使用電動車免徵牌照稅這個部分呢"},{"start":2962.509,"end":2986.533,"text":"可以減輕相關的污染我知道 問題是你中央請客地方出錢問題我們是希望說用這些基金可以彌補而且又達到淨零排碳因為讓它能夠雙門齊立你不要硬是說這是地方的稅收地方自己要去一定要怎麼樣去配合對於現在有關溫室氣體"},{"start":2990.934,"end":2999.547,"text":"相關的法律裡面未來會有所謂的基金那這個基金的運用那在環境部裡面會有所規劃我想這個部分委員的建議是不是可以"},{"start":3000.083,"end":3012.969,"text":"今天有環境部的同仁話也許可以納入一個反正你就把這個這個納進去考量啦我是希望說因為你像新北市政府他整個下來大概這個預估稅損就是減少了會稅損到38億這些年來那我認為說對地方政府講實在話當然他是減少他原來的這個"},{"start":3028.617,"end":3048.192,"text":"稅的收入當然地方建設就會遞減那我認為相輔相成啦這個我希望部長能夠納進去考量那部長因為你這一次有去參加APEC財長會議以區域永續成長與共享團融為主題"},{"start":3049.413,"end":3075.202,"text":"各經濟代表這個針對全球及這個區域經濟以及金融情勢財政政策以及數位金融等這些議題做一些意見交換那部長因為你也與會那我請問會中參與國家的代表對當前以及未來經濟情勢主要有哪些的看法謝謝委員我想在APEC財長會議裡面相關的經濟體"},{"start":3078.427,"end":3099.413,"text":"都對於這個主題都有所發表一些意見那包含比如說美國他也正在積極改善自己從疫情以後他的一個債務上升的一個情形然後推行相關的放寬的管制同時也為企業提供有關投資的誘因還有促進基礎建設的投資那麼日本也表示他們國家的財政狀況也逐漸的改善了"},{"start":3101.614,"end":3104.497,"text":"會持續的推動因應通膨的一個政策韓國也致力在推動AI轉型還有創新並且推動AI的教育降低數位的落差而我們也在這個會上裡面來表達我們國內的一個經濟狀況那很重要就是說我們說明的就是說因為AI的一個整個高效能運算的一個需求"},{"start":3124.094,"end":3128.476,"text":"所以我們的出口非常的暢旺比其他年度都來得高那這個出口的暢旺然後支撐了我國的經濟的成長當然除了這個我們的資通訊科技的一個發達之外其他的產業部分的產業仍然有不是那麼好當然因為第一個關稅的因素還有匯率的一個變動等等的一個因素但是政府也推出了相關的一個有關支持產業"},{"start":3148.826,"end":3175.071,"text":"安定就業以及照顧民生以及強化韌性等特別條例來讓我們的其他產業也能夠持續的發展那同時在財政政策裡面我們也強調的說明我國對於財政的管理是用非常嚴謹的態度來指引因此我們的債務比佔GDP的比例從36%一直下降到今年底24%這是我們一關對於非常審慎的態度來做我們的財政的一個管控"},{"start":3175.951,"end":3179.674,"text":"我想這個部分是剩餘其他的國家同時我們的財政政策裡面包含用所謂的PPP也就是引進民間的來投資強化我們的基礎建設然後能夠帶動經濟成長那麼更加增加的稅收以及同時循環可以做更好的建設我想這個部分我們都把我國的經驗以及成果在會上來做表達"},{"start":3198.368,"end":3221.483,"text":"那個部長APEC部長及的會議在會後發表聯合聲明強調促進整個貿易投資和提升供應鏈韌性用來強化區域的連結那部長就您的了解APEC國家當中有哪些國家這個台灣可以再加強貿易的投資有哪些國家"},{"start":3222.353,"end":3240.838,"text":"我想對於加強我們的貿易投資的部分是政府一直在推動的部分我們會和理念相近的國家持續來推動貿易投資比如說新南向國家裡面就有9個是APEC的會員那也都是我們新南向政策裡面積極投資的對象那你認為哪些國家是我們重要的目標我想很多一些國家都是可以而且這個供應鏈的佈局也有關係那我們在產業在設置在海外投資的時候都會考量"},{"start":3250.681,"end":3276.045,"text":"客戶的需求我想这个是重要的那你要是说没有哪些重点的国家那我请问你你认为台湾目前是不是其他EPIC国家加强贸易投资的目标是不是当然里面的会员的经济体都是我们在这里面可以去表达我们跟其他国家的一个友善以及我们国家是一个可以信任的伙伴"},{"start":3277.554,"end":3299.37,"text":"部長 其次你要提升供應鏈的韌性你認為台灣有哪些優勢跟吸引力供應的韌性就是我們在產業裡面的供應鏈其實是分工的相當的一個精密而且我們的良率是非常高的我想台灣的經驗是一個非常值得再推廣的部長"},{"start":3301.823,"end":3317.973,"text":"你像那個林信義表示APEC與匯中許多國家的領袖紛紛向台灣表達合作的意願並且特別用落花盛開蝴蝶自來的氛圍來強調不少經濟體都主動來向台灣"},{"start":3323.021,"end":3347.512,"text":"就是汲取經驗那部長明年APEC峰會將由中國大陸來主辦外界都關注臺灣要如何確保公平參與部長就您的瞭解兩岸目前對立的這個情形升高的態勢請問部長你認為臺灣這朵花明年在APEC到底開不開的城開不開的城我們是APEC的會員"},{"start":3352.031,"end":3372.927,"text":"在所有的會員在經濟體在這個APEC裡面應該是平等的再次平等的那你有沒有信心嘛明年對岸在那裡召開因為我們現在政府幾乎很多政策都是跟對岸對幹真的是對幹而且你看那個陸委會有跟沒有一樣"},{"start":3374.929,"end":3388.219,"text":"真的很糟糕在APEC里面它主要是以财政经济等等的主题我们会以这样的一个主题来分享我们的经验然后来听取其他国家的分享的一个相关经验"},{"start":3388.837,"end":3403.023,"text":"以及整體的區域的一個趨勢的走向部長有媒體報導中國外交部駁斥了台灣對於明年由中國主辦的亞太經濟合作會議APEC安全問題的擔憂來強調台灣能否參與"},{"start":3407.125,"end":3423.659,"text":"取決於是否遵守既定的慣例一中原則那我請問部長以中國的回應內容就你自己的看法台灣明年參加APEC領袖級的和部長級會議的機會高不高你認為呢"},{"start":3425.264,"end":3438.993,"text":"如果是一個APEC的主辦國它必須要有一定的一個高度然後對於所有參與這個APEC的會員國的經濟體都必須以平等而且給予尊嚴來我們在這樣情況下去參與"},{"start":3441.441,"end":3466.687,"text":"我是認為啦當然我們希望能夠參加但是以目前整個政府的氛圍那跟對岸處處就是反正坐梗對立嘛對不對我們真的很擔憂明年到底成不成我真的打一個問號好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林德福委員"},{"start":3469.952,"end":3471.953,"text":"接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好"},{"start":3490.663,"end":3517.049,"text":"不讓找今天的使用牌照稅關於電動車的部分基本上大家幾乎都沒有什麼意義因為要配合的政策而且要本來就是檢討其他的相關的領域都已經到119年12月底了所以大家應該都不會有什麼意義比較另外的就是有個別的提案關於身障者"},{"start":3518.792,"end":3546.283,"text":"當身障者保護身心障礙者是我們照顧社會弱勢的一個好意但是它裡面有提到說這個同一戶籍然後裡面的這個親屬或是兩親等裡面的親屬那就延免牌照稅這個目的是要讓身心障礙者獲得保護而如果這樣修正會你會不會覺得這樣擴大到了身心障礙者的家屬"},{"start":3548.932,"end":3551.376,"text":"一同居住的這些親屬都會變成免稅的這個那這樣會不會太寬"},{"start":3556.858,"end":3562.342,"text":"是的 確實如委員所說的我覺得這個身心障礙者使用或者是所有的所擁有的車輛給使用牌照稅的免徵這個部分就是為了要保護身心障礙者他可以降低他的一些稅負的一個負擔那因此在現行的法律裡面其實已經有相關的規範包含他如果他有身心障礙的手冊然後他也有駕照的話"},{"start":3581.155,"end":3597.771,"text":"那麼也是他的車輛那他就這個部分就可以免徵但是如果說他自己沒有辦法擁有駕照但他裡面同一個戶籍二親等以內的親屬所有那這個車輛也是供我們聲音障礙者朋友使用的話那就可以免徵這個目的真正是讓這個聲音障礙者能夠用而不是說讓他的親屬"},{"start":3599.272,"end":3620.446,"text":"可以免徵牌照稅目的是讓他所有讓他擁有的或他真正給他使用的那你在同一個戶籍二清等裡面是真的跟他比較有親近的關係而且有照顧一個事實所以這個情況下是來做那如何基徵租稅也是有成本的那是不是符合這個要件基徵是稅捐處呢還是國稅局"},{"start":3622.852,"end":3639.486,"text":"這個是地方稅因此有地方的稅捐基金機關來徵客那稅捐基金機關有辦法落實去查核是不是真的有在那邊居住嗎我如果只是戶籍放在這裡然後事實上也沒有跟身心障礙者一起居住就算是2000等內的親屬其實也不符合這個規定嘛"},{"start":3641.718,"end":3662.757,"text":"因為你的目的 你剛剛講立法的意思是要照顧身心障礙者啊不是要照顧身心障礙者的親屬嘛那假設他戶籍跟身心障礙者放在一起那他屬然符合清等的規定那他名下的這些汽車是不是車輛也免這個牌照稅嗎這個不符合立法意思所以必須核實嘛對不對"},{"start":3664.863,"end":3688.666,"text":"这个部分我想因为在核实上我们其实这样的一个相关委员的建议我们有请地方政府表达意见基本上认为在这个核实上尤其是要有同居逝世这个部分比较困难因此就法条才规定是以同一户籍因为这样在认定上会比较简便然后户籍一般来说都是要经过登记所以就是会出现漏洞因为常常媒体的批评"},{"start":3689.928,"end":3692.661,"text":"事實上那輛車是身心障礙者的兩親等內的親屬"},{"start":3695.154,"end":3718.105,"text":"所有不是身心障礙者在用然後它只是戶籍放在一起而已那這跟立法一直其實不符合的但是事實上這也是剛剛我講到另外一個矛盾的問題就是因為你的稅捐基金也是有成本如果你要每一台車都去認定都要去看看它是不是有同居的事實這會增加非常多的勞費所以現在採用這樣子的狀況如果這樣子再無限擴大的話我是覺得"},{"start":3724.548,"end":3747.017,"text":"我個人認為這樣子的話將來出現這樣這個有漏洞的狀況會更多會被更批評的更厲害而且我跟你講批評不會批評稅券計政處大家都想到說這使用牌照稅是中央立法然後都怪到你頭上來是不是會有這樣的狀況變成你要被黑鍋所以這個你要慎重思考"},{"start":3752.683,"end":3773.024,"text":"第二個我要問你我上次在總諮詢的時候問跨境電商落地的狀況院長有答應要盡快讓淘寶拼多多這個必須要在台灣裡面要落地不一定是他本身他設立的公司來台灣落地這樣才能夠做電商你們確定有多久嗎"},{"start":3774.844,"end":3799.132,"text":"沒有錯如同委員所說的就是境外電商來台目前因為沒有開放中資來台經營電商所以他沒有做落地的登記那這個部分究竟要怎麼樣處理涉及到速發部以及經濟部的相關的登記的規定因此這個部分已經折成速發部會同相關部會那當然經濟部以及我們財政部也一起會參與這個部分目前"},{"start":3803.727,"end":3828.792,"text":"這個部分是不是請我們關務室做一個補充說明是 包委員據我了解應該是前天院長有找書發布等等的相關機關去開會我覺得經濟部的那個回答我實在是頭很大這個把頭埋進沙子裡面沒有看到然後就逃避問題然後就當問題不存在你有在台灣落地的像"},{"start":3830.431,"end":3851.803,"text":"這些蝦皮coupon我現在光談消費者保護的部分如果我收到加害的商品我還可以跟他們求償然後經濟部的講法說因為中國電商不能在台灣經營所以沒有落地的問題沒有落地的問題問題他一直在賣啊那除非你學教育部說把那個T-talk"},{"start":3852.725,"end":3880.885,"text":"那個網域把它封掉不然每一個台灣人在上上電商的網站的時候都可以看得到拼多多廣告還做那麼大每天做鋪天蓋地的廣告然後掏寶結果每一個月買幾萬件幾十萬件的這個包裹再寄進來然後說不用登錄那反而守法的要負擔更多的成本那不守法的就完全放任他不管這個態度是不對的喔"},{"start":3882.225,"end":3907.682,"text":"卓院長還有部長也在場 答應我的事情要趕快去進行這個是為了保護台灣的消費者我們的消費者萬一買到對自己有加害的商品我還有一個地方可以求償我還可以對落地公司而且我請你財政部去開會的時候你要主張我的講法要有適當的資本額他不是拿一個百萬台幣在台灣落個地"},{"start":3908.632,"end":3935.369,"text":"那是不夠的他賣多少商品你對他落地的這個公司要求的這個資本額要有一定的保障在我來看沒有十一二十一是絕對不夠的因為他每一年賣的商品這麼多而且那個加害商品如果一來是整批的你們看到最近法國就出了一個例子法國警告他他就立刻去賣那個"},{"start":3937.264,"end":3949.822,"text":"那個什麼未成年的那個小孩子那個什麼情趣用品那個形象的情趣用品然後就被法國警告這中國的電商就他當然嘴巴上都很會講說我趕快下架"},{"start":3952.051,"end":3972.688,"text":"事實上做不到吧我們台灣也一直在告訴他你說有非洲豬瘟疫區的肉品不可以銷售到台灣來他也是滿口保證但是事實上是不是賣了很多來光你們查獲的就很多了嘛 署長 是不是你們查獲多少件今年到現在為止應該有850件的豬肉製品了"},{"start":3975.975,"end":4000.125,"text":"850件嘛 他不是 那是被你查獲的喔如果沒有查獲的還更多喔因為你查獲 你不可能百分之百查獲嘛你很努力我知道 但是你也不可能百分之百查獲那每一次跟他講 講官話說我們一定嚴格禁止這個疫區的肉品賣到台灣去我們會跟他下架 也沒有用啊所以如果不來落地 要學這個"},{"start":4001.647,"end":4021.915,"text":"對TikTok這樣子把它的網軍給封了讓台灣的消費者看不到拼多多看不到淘寶自然就不能購買你可不可以同意這樣的做法你在開會的時候你要做這樣的主張啊速發部在開會的時候這個技術都已經成熟了教育部都做得到了速發部跟財政部沒有道理做不到啊對不對"},{"start":4023.281,"end":4045.882,"text":"這個部分行政院有要求出發部這個部分包含廣告的推播這個不斷的一直推播廣告但是它又有不合法的情況所以這個部分部會會聯合起來一起來做規範我跟你講你們如果沒有拿出任何作為因為他在境外 他在中國他根本完全不怕啦你就把那個網域給封了之後他急於要打開這個網域就換他來跟你談"},{"start":4048.103,"end":4063.888,"text":"你沒有這樣做是他站在優勢你站在被動他理都不理你你只有學教育部這個方法把它封了之後他發現說你怎麼都沒有訂單他了解問題之後他趕快來跟你談到底該怎麼做所以既然部長"},{"start":4065.236,"end":4085.644,"text":"既然署長有講說已經有要求書包括趕快開會我第一個要求趕快開會第二個我的主張你在會中你要講說至少要幫我轉達到因為我沒有資格去參加那個會議是你們部長之間的會議你們部會之間的會議是要轉達我的意見你要站在主動的立場而不是被動的去因應"},{"start":4086.664,"end":4103.035,"text":"你要主動的做之後他才會急著要來趕快跟你談一一一一又是這個什麼光棍節又是要開始大量賣貨物每年都說賣幾百億來你們現在一一一一如果這樣子讓他沒有辦法不落地然後賣這些商品賣幾百億喔這個社會大眾又會很有意見加油喔 謝謝好 委員的意見我們會去表達好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員接下來請賴思寶委員質詢"},{"start":4123.563,"end":4128.148,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長請莊部長這個夢樓人員有需要可以來幫忙沒關係這個今天開始普罰現金登記對不對"},{"start":4139.355,"end":4157.14,"text":"預登記嘛那裡面大家就很怕被詐騙所以這裡面有校戰所責說不要點簡訊不要跟LINE連結不要ATM轉帳可以去ATM領錢但是不要轉帳指認 這是我重點指認.gov.tw指認這個可是呢"},{"start":4165.322,"end":4192.176,"text":"我看到的是你們原來就有推出一個東西你們推出一個東西是.com.tw你們網站是這個網站結果政府都gov結果你們沒有gov你看一下個人的網站普發現金登記網站雖然你這裡是什麼test可是"},{"start":4195.037,"end":4203.601,"text":"一般的就是因為有民眾給我檢舉他說不是講這個要指認GOV嗎怎麼這個不是GOV怎麼會這樣子呢你要不要解釋一下或者是哪一位長官幫忙解釋一下到底是怎樣這關係老百姓的權利我們一再說明網站只有E1.gov.tw"},{"start":4219.091,"end":4238.028,"text":"僅此一家 別無分號那這個網站是來自於書發部還是這你們的 這財政部的那財政部沒有這個網站有啦 你這個你看機關名稱財政部國庫署網站名稱叫做普發現金登記網站網址"},{"start":4239.71,"end":4252.145,"text":"怎麼沒有呢我們普發先進的網站就只有10000.gov.tw所有不是這樣的網址的都會被我們封鎖所以這個是假的 對可是那是標章資訊耶這個來看的話這是標章資訊你們去"},{"start":4260.575,"end":4266.302,"text":"你們後來撤掉了啦我現在跟你講一個我聽你講答案你們發現問題你們把它撤掉啦才說10000.gov.tw啦是這個啦"},{"start":4273.328,"end":4293.129,"text":"沒有 就只有一個只有一個 所以正是假的就只有一個 對對對所以正是假的對 假的正是假的不是這個E1.gov.tw都不是真的都不是用來發E1的好 那上會去做網路上去搜尋如果有類似的我們都會處理你們現在開放每天兩個 深圳兩個 後面兩個數字嘛"},{"start":4295.231,"end":4321.972,"text":"那上一次上網大概935萬人那五天 你是五天登記嘛所以平均每一天大概100萬人你們有沒有做過壓力測試因為你換了 這次整套都換囉這次整套因為你們未來消化預算整套換了其實用上一套就好了你們不用上一套 應該花錢重新搞一套重新搞一套 有沒有做過壓力測試"},{"start":4324.024,"end":4339.776,"text":"當然有做壓力測試而且把頻寬都加大目前來說過去我們112年的時候大概一天平均是65萬人現在平均100萬算起來到現在為止你知道多少人嗎部長我查了到現在at this moment 20萬"},{"start":4346.481,"end":4351.085,"text":"20萬 現在才多少9點開放到現在就一個小時不到一個小時不到20萬啦按照這樣算的話一天超過100萬啦這一次我們在蘇發部在做規劃設計都有把它平衡都放大我沒有做過壓力測試一天最大平衡可以到多少200萬還是300萬還是500萬"},{"start":4371.69,"end":4375.935,"text":"財政部你一直開口閉口說要提財化法什麼時候可以出爐"},{"start":4389.502,"end":4393.706,"text":"年底前一定會出爐那出爐的過程當中是不是跟各地方政府都討論過了財政部其實已經開過了四次的會議他們都 各縣市都同意你這種版本嗎我們已經做了一個最大的共識因為有一個"},{"start":4412.163,"end":4419.915,"text":"345億 現在又有民進黨的委員提出來說要怎麼用啊用在做月子啊 用在補助這個補助那個啦345億 但不要忘了喔這裡面離島可能就要拿掉220億喔"},{"start":4427.535,"end":4452.81,"text":"沒有這麼多沒有剩這麼多剩100多億而已345億是因為公視的問題沒有辦法分配出去這樣子要怎麼處理你們認為該怎麼處理要修法才能做345億要怎麼分配其實這個財務法本身是給地方政府的再怎麼修都應該給地方政府這是一個中心思想"},{"start":4454.093,"end":4458.635,"text":"就是我再怎麼修都應該給地方政府因為財務法本來就是中央給地方的這是我跟你強調的事實上也沒有這麼多因為我們只同意修一條1613以後如果還有剩的要立什麼法要來發什麼那個再說我們再看APEC期間"},{"start":4479.861,"end":4499.597,"text":"有財長會議我知道你這次APEC期間你並沒有並沒有去嘛對不對你是前面去前面財長會議去後面沒有嗎我參加第一個就是財長會議一整天嘛那第二天有一個結構部長跟財政部長雙部長會議的早上半天接下來就是結構部長會議那結構部長會議整個是由我們國發會主委代表"},{"start":4508.816,"end":4529.476,"text":"你見到的美國的官員是什麼等級的他們是副部長出席美國副助理部長來出席副助理部長不是副部長副助理部長跟你見面我們在這裡已經討論了不知道幾次講了幾次了從前年開始答應一直到去年又到現在"},{"start":4530.297,"end":4554.625,"text":"那你有沒有跟他再談有沒有再跟他談台美租稅協定在那個場合我們有跟他提就是說台美的租稅協定是雙方大家各界都希望能夠盡快簽署的那這部分希望能夠在他們國內能夠他有沒有給你一點也感謝他們的財政部跟我們的財政部其實我們都有做工作小組技術性的持續在做交流跟討論"},{"start":4555.945,"end":4560.928,"text":"他有沒有給你一個具體的承諾說希望大概什麼時候可以過我想這個部分涉及他們國會的以他們的財政部也很難去肯定告訴我們所以今年不可能國會是一定會通過今年現在11月了而且整個美國政府都停擺了"},{"start":4575.357,"end":4594.763,"text":"對不對 你應該很了解美國目前的狀況但是我方其實一直都沒有我知道 所以今年底 透過各種管道今年底又沒有了你這個題目已經講了兩年了對 這個題目我們雙方都其實都很希望我那是講了兩年了我都講到我都不好意思了還要跟你一直講同樣題目我都抱歉一直問"},{"start":4597.664,"end":4618.429,"text":"對不對 這都沒有答案但是委員的關切其實是可以表達我們代表國內的民意希望能夠盡快的簽署我們台美租金協定因為美國AIT的人說不定也在看也不一定講給他們聽所以我們這裡希望趕快簽委員的關切其實就是表達我們的國內民意最後一個小題目"},{"start":4619.809,"end":4640.994,"text":"也不算小題目了 現在民間的精精病什麼 規模越來越大我們的犯公股 相對的排名就越來越後面了你有沒有 比如說 比如這樣講 第一金 兆豐金他都沒有受選 他老實講不夠完完全 變成一個金空那你有沒有想要推動公併施"},{"start":4644.13,"end":4666.542,"text":"公私并私人的私有没有这样的计划就是说公股跟民间的去并民间的我想这个部分要综合的一个评估要有中效而且能够可以复补我们比较弱的部分那当然由金控可以去做评估那财政部基本上是看他们评估出来的结果可以给予因为现在民间都一直"},{"start":4667.222,"end":4686.347,"text":"事實病越來越大我們的競爭力相對就會低就會受到影響所以我希望你能不能夠提出一個你的評估報告可不可以就是說要不要推動公司病你答案可以說不要暫時不要也可以或者說你準備想要都可以"},{"start":4686.647,"end":4691.89,"text":"你答案給我一個時間表什麼時候可以給我好 我們會給委員一個評估報告大概什麼時候給我們三個月時間好嗎一個月啦 三個月那我們還要去彙整各個航庫的意義好了 那就兩個月好了可以吧 兩個月兩個月提出要不要我們財政部要不要推動公私併公私併對 公私併的計畫好不好 評估一下好 我們評估好 謝謝委員好 謝謝賴司保委員"},{"start":4718.311,"end":4720.392,"text":"接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢主席有請莊部長請莊部長委員好"},{"start":4737.591,"end":4766.051,"text":"部長好 我想今天討論的使用牌照稅法本席有提案我想跟其他委員的爭議性不大那我覺得想要探討的部分有幾點第一個我想要問一下部長最近這個國票監控的這個爭議在整個報章媒體上不斷的浮現出來那甚至有不同的這個系統兩邊有不同主流非主流的系統當中也希望"},{"start":4767.671,"end":4789.837,"text":"政府能夠來做主導 免得三年一亂後來每年都持續上演這個部分其實就本身公股之所以這麼積極的介入整個國票的這個監控的案子明年的主導選將揭曉但是依照目前為止進場蠻多的就我知道進場蠻多 我側面去了解"},{"start":4790.797,"end":4817.602,"text":"但我要問的是說站在整個公股主導的角色不是在跟特定的一個家族合作它主要是要健全整個國票金扣那第一階段你取得主導權之後你第二階段的方式我就覺得是你介入的一個重要的關鍵性也就是說你到底要把國票金扣把它正常化畢竟現在國票金扣是七行的發展它沒有銀行做主體"},{"start":4818.562,"end":4829.621,"text":"沒有一個監控是這樣子那或者他要跟另外一個銀行來做一個搭配來形成另一個監控我很想知道部長你的態度是怎麼樣方向是怎麼樣 政策是怎麼樣"},{"start":4831.698,"end":4852.871,"text":"是 請具體回答我想這個部分對於國票金控這個部分公股有一些買入它的股票股數的部分那我想大家也都了解那我想最重要還是如同委員剛剛所說的是要把這個國票金控的公私治理如果能夠做得更做好"},{"start":4853.351,"end":4871.645,"text":"我想這個是最主要的一個我們未來在裡面的股權的時候公司治理當然是要做好然後公司治理不做好到底我現在問你是方向上你不是單純的介入現在的主流跟非主流的派系而是你有一個清楚的目標要把整個國泰的國票金控把它健全化有沒有這個目標"},{"start":4872.466,"end":4900.638,"text":"是这个目标是这个目标的话那就有两个方向一个是单独把这些国票金控把它健全化或者是跟其他来做组合那这个都是我觉得第一个是健全化未来的组合都是可以考虑的方向都不排除这个可能性对没错这要对外说明清楚好不好不是说变成是整个公股去介入单纯的这个公司派或市场派的一个行为好不好我觉得部长你要站在一个高度对这个问题要出来澄清"},{"start":4901.658,"end":4922.146,"text":"不能蒙不吭聲 不發言或迴避另外一個部分像財法法的部分本席就一直非常關心你看財法法你一直說拖到年底的時候要出來我剛剛就接到一個通知國民黨團待會十點要開會了說延宕召開延宕財法修法民進黨罔顧政治承諾記者會你知道這個嗎我剛剛已經傳簡訊給你了"},{"start":4929.81,"end":4949.379,"text":"你知道你就一个本来乱修法通过的版本应该是对于这个要修法的态度是相对保守的一个被乱修法的一个执行单位行政单位应该要积极去修法的反而一个该急的不急一个该不急的却很急你不觉得很错乱吗"},{"start":4952.267,"end":4958.092,"text":"部長跟委員報告我想財化法大概都我們現在已經到了差不多後續的一個階段那應該就會在今年底以前會送出來的院版的版本那在水平分配的部分我們也四次召開跟地方政府的會議那在垂直部分呢院裡面也已經跟各部會去討論有關事權回歸地方的部分都已經討案到一個程度"},{"start":4978.71,"end":5005.683,"text":"事权还有包括香港法律修正简单的讲像地方制度法就一定要修嘛对 回归到地方自治的事项对 那么这种连带的这种财权跟事权的发挥要去面对你年底要压出来的话那你有没有可能在这个会议通过有没有打算我们当然希望这个会议能够通过有这个目标嘛那有这个目标之前在你法案提出来之前你可能各党派要稍微沟通一下好不好那另外一个部分回到我今天要跟你另外还有一个跟你"},{"start":5008.548,"end":5035.114,"text":"質詢的一個內容當中目前整個發展來說我們台灣的整個產業發展的速度那個發展速度非常快在AI的部分大家都全民共享但是整個台灣的社會發展卻越來越兩極化M型的一個社會發展就本席看到的這一個部分的資料財務差距的貧富差距的部分從16倍到變66倍你看"},{"start":5036.054,"end":5058.377,"text":"從家庭財富所得的部分其他的欄位都是倍數成長 部長對不對最高20%是3.93倍人居的部分是3.67倍可是家庭財富最低的20%的部分卻馬拉死有沒有看到 部長這個部分的情況底下顯然我們過去的歲次想要達到這個財富重複配失能嘛"},{"start":5059.398,"end":5079.018,"text":"沒有這個效果你可能有減稅到一部分人但是你不能分配到給其他的人那你這種情況底下有沒有可能對於這些人來說你去做一個調查這些人在目前為止經濟弱勢者的這20%當中有沒有還有承受哪一些稅務負擔"},{"start":5080.399,"end":5095.904,"text":"譬如讲他可能还有其他的你现在很多的税金都是综合所得税在减免对这些人是无感的一来他是低所得后来他无所得你有没有其他的方式来减免减少他们在这个税务的负担有没有可能"},{"start":5097.264,"end":5117.243,"text":"我想跟委员报告所得税制的优化其实已经推动了从107年逐步逐项在推动那也跟委员报告目前来说44%的家户其实目前都没有缴纳所得税那至于您提到就是说这个家庭最低20%再去了解他有哪一些还继续在缴税"},{"start":5118.484,"end":5133.5,"text":"这个部分我想我们这个可能要跟那个组总这边来做讨论一下麻烦 麻烦财政部跟组总那边了解一下你一个月做一份报告给本席要如何减轻这些人让经济弱势者没有这样的负担 有没有可能"},{"start":5133.88,"end":5154.129,"text":"我想我们会跟主总在这边聊一下好不好我一个月等你的报告还有另外一个部分整个产业发展非常的不平均整个明明知道那个贸易逆差的结果是来自于这一个科技创造大幅的粗糙但是你要克了关税的对象却是传产跟农业"},{"start":5156.091,"end":5182.134,"text":"傳統農業都是在中南部那本席就要講每次看到這一個部分我們在地方上一些退稅的方式要協調地方政府退稅的速度都非常的慢再加上這是天災我看到這個條款天災列入這個扣除額的部分提列損失的部分分五年但是個人的損失就只有當年度列舉扣除"},{"start":5184.144,"end":5208.121,"text":"部長 一樣天災平凡的日本他們的企業跟個人都已經是五年了甚至他想要把這個天災平凡的部分再把這五年繼續延長我們財政部有沒有可能朝向這個方式也就是個人跟企業都是用五年的方式而且要朝延長的方式的修考來進行修法本席會修法 我想要先聽你的意見"},{"start":5210.623,"end":5237.31,"text":"我想个人的部分目前是当年度扣减就是如同委员所说的那我想这个部分委员的提案不合理那您认为要在5年的延长5年可以扣减那这个部分我们这个部分我们再来考量看好不好再来考量看看不排除我们再跟委员再做一个讨论不排除对不对跟委员做一个讨论有道理一样天灾平凡的日本都是已经都是5年了对不对这是第一个而且他们还要再延长"},{"start":5238.63,"end":5253.564,"text":"他们要再延长所以说这个修法的部分我们要思考一下要跟进脚步我们参考一下国外的案例也再跟委员在座讨论本席就跟你讲日本的案例了不排除好不好来进行修法可以吧再跟委员讨论 对不对"},{"start":5254.905,"end":5276.538,"text":"連修法的態度都不敢講實在是 歷史都幫你舉出來了還有 如果連後面這個這個其實是老問題這載具的部分弄了載具之後還要有一個紙本的迷信這明明是在統一發票以後就可以列入了電子發票的部分的實施作業當中有沒有真正的落實化無紙化的可能性部長"},{"start":5279.798,"end":5300.721,"text":"我们这个部分存入载具就是五指化那又任由明细这个部分涉及到厂商他们有的时候他自己会有的还拉出一大堆的那个广告出来看你有没有可能在修法作业里头来要求要求他都不要出明细明细就放在电子发票就好了有的电子发票里头就有了"},{"start":5301.942,"end":5312.127,"text":"對啊 這一片處理嘛免得真的很麻煩你去看那個櫃檯一大堆紙就丟到那邊那個中心有沒有以前我記得也曾經有討論過這樣的討論過還沒有執行啊有 那個你知道嗎我想請問 請我們中心"},{"start":5318.354,"end":5338.849,"text":"主任那跟委員報告那針對這個電子發票實施作業要點裡面其實它已經規範廠商可以不用附這個明細那只是因為在不同的場合之下的消費情境不一樣舉例來說到了大賣場那可能很多的客戶呢他還是習慣在出這個櫃台的時候對一下有哪一些貨品"},{"start":5339.409,"end":5357.474,"text":"那針對像這些超商賣場的部分我們都有極力的去宣導對 宣導不足嘛就是你既然要無職化你就要宣導你就辦法都已經修了你就宣導的問題嘛 好不好最後一個問題我問一下部長這個跟那個放寬入境免稅的這一個酒類的部分"},{"start":5358.594,"end":5382.555,"text":"當初我在看到的時候我在上半年的時候看到的時候所有的宣傳你們因為這一個預算的一個刪除來不及做新的宣傳的影片但是到六月份了你們新的宣傳影片終於出來了可以吸納這個1.5公斤的這一個酒類進來到上個月底 十月底因為華航的班級上面還在播放舊的一公升的影片這到底是什麼一回事"},{"start":5383.732,"end":5407.063,"text":"你不是修法通过了吗对 已经修法通过我想这个部分我们再做已经搞了一年了好不好我们再来 再去盘点一下对 你们难道这个沟通上有问题吗有什么困难上次说预算的问题那这是什么问题好 谢谢委员的提示我们这个部分再来盘点赶快去做调整是谢委员的提示好 谢谢郭国文委员谢谢部长接下来我们请赖会员委员咨询"},{"start":5418.382,"end":5432.178,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們的財政部莊部長還有台南市財稅局專門委員台南市的莊委員好 李文文"},{"start":5437.574,"end":5463.323,"text":"部長 首先本席要肯定這一次使用牌照稅的第5條修正草案就肯定 可是這樣的一個修法當然我們目的是要讓電動車就是可以把它那個整個運具把它電動化那甚至我們也支持就是說2050近年排碳的一個國家的一個目的那事實上就是說"},{"start":5464.443,"end":5488.435,"text":"全國的地方政府已經減少90億的地方稅收了這減少了90億的地方稅收然後我們來支持就是說在延長5年在延長5年的這一個法的一個修正那首先我想我先請教一下那個台南市政府那個財稅局那個李專委"},{"start":5489.395,"end":5513.171,"text":"因為你們的支持支持中央的一個這樣的政策所以你每一年台南市少收了多少錢我們今年的話少了6億14年那整個今年少了2億那整個政策下來是少了6億不好意思今年少2億然後"},{"start":5517.898,"end":5537.386,"text":"一年少兩億 對來那個專委你看一下那個我的那個投影片裡頭這個是你們台南市政府的一個稅務局稅務局的一個公文是那你們講了就是在這個說明裡頭就是說"},{"start":5540.246,"end":5553.797,"text":"稅收的損失累計將達二十億九千萬那是說未來五年未來的五年嘛 對所以你一年少收了兩億嘛是好 謝謝來 那個李專委你請回部長 是這個我們你知道一台那個油車大概多少錢起跳用牌照稅啊"},{"start":5567.918,"end":5581.454,"text":"一台油車賣了多少錢基本上還是要看它是哪一種車款或者是就大概1500CC的大概要百萬那這個電動車大概就是150萬以上的電動車"},{"start":5588.956,"end":5616.245,"text":"那150萬以上的電動車跟500萬的電動車我們有沒有分級去扣他的這個那個牌照稅在電動車沒有應該是沒有所以免就是就沒有分級了就是我們是一致性的嘛一致性的那好今天要跟部長探討的就是說這個有錢的人不用繳稅一般的人要繳稅"},{"start":5618.512,"end":5631.157,"text":"這個顯然好像不是非常的合理部長每一年我們花了這麼多的錢地方政府就是在這五年我們可能會少收掉我們少收掉那個300"},{"start":5635.295,"end":5655.704,"text":"376億的稅收流失掉了在全國的地方政府然後我們拿來補貼這一些就是配合我們的政策就是說要減能減碳然後這一些電動車那這樣子的一個方式那你有沒有算到就是說他每一年二氧化碳的那個排放量減少了多少"},{"start":5657.424,"end":5680.316,"text":"這個部分應該環境部或經濟部都有計算對 它的統計裡面一下請主長補充一下是 我們覺得根據經濟部所做的稅市支出評估它可以未來5年可以減少310萬公餅的燃油消耗量還有739萬公噸的二氧化碳排放量到的第二頁了 第二頁了好"},{"start":5682.357,"end":5710.812,"text":"這個好像是邏輯性其實我聽了不太懂那事實上就是說差了多少你二氧化碳的排放量你少了多少這個數據應該是要很明確的讓我們知道那這樣子我們持續一直5年5年的來修法這個才有意思因為所有現在在全國的這個地方政府的財稅局都在這個地方他們少收了"},{"start":5711.252,"end":5732.151,"text":"因為要負擔了配合中央的一個政策少收了很多的一個地方稅這地方稅是壓榨到他們的長照他們的教育還有他們的零零總總就像你看台南這五年少收了20.6億那有沒有一個就是比較公平的一個方式呢"},{"start":5733.032,"end":5742.836,"text":"是不是應該要有一個分級式的一個減稅的制度不然你只要是買電動車不管是1000CC 1500CC 3000CC減的稅都是一樣的這樣有道理嗎我想聽聽你們的一個建議"},{"start":5750.274,"end":5778.833,"text":"是謝謝委員的提示我想這個部分您認為說應該要有一個更公平的也就是說你買的更高價的其實你有享受更高的一個減稅的利益那這個部分委員的建議也許我們可以可以再遵循經濟部以及環境部這方面的一個意見那看要怎麼樣的方式更為合理你看你這個稅務是倒退你買電動車你可以享受免貨物稅免牌照稅免燃料稅的多重優惠"},{"start":5779.333,"end":5791.793,"text":"那這樣子的一個政策的設計就是在一個框框環保我們要追求環保這個也都有道理可是如果長期一直這樣下去的話我覺得"},{"start":5792.847,"end":5820.621,"text":"不是非常的合理所以我们的租税优惠都定有一定的期限就是期限到什么时间然后在这个期限届满前可以做一些检讨跟调整不是 你如果每年每年都有一个当然你每年都会有一个检讨每5年就是一个检讨每5年就是一个检讨那你讲它就是说电动车的成长率每年是30它的成长率是30%在成长"},{"start":5822.122,"end":5849.903,"text":"那现在到底电动车它所占的市场的那个percent有多少这个你们也要跟我们报告啊我们在那个税市支出评估里面都提出来那我们大概统计的结果到今年的9月电动车大概有12万0834辆而电动机车大概有79万4000辆你这个电动车占的比例这个成长的比例到底占了几趴对成长占了几趴"},{"start":5851.072,"end":5867.367,"text":"我看你寫說是每年30%那你一年30%那是不是到了第二年的時候會不會有60%也就是說他成長的比例那我為什麼要同意讓你延到2030年這沒有道理你保障有錢人"},{"start":5869.554,"end":5888.173,"text":"委員就是說成長的比例因為你知道所有的人大概都是買100萬的電油車你要跳到電動車的話就是要150萬起跳剛才我在跟你陳述的溝通的就是這樣的一個道理委員的理念是"},{"start":5889.975,"end":5906.888,"text":"你了解我的理念好 謝謝那是不是有一個比較好的一個建議方式我想這個部第一個電動車我們不管在貨物稅也好在牌照稅以後給予免徵這個確實達到的一個效果就是希望能夠趕快增加就是說汰換這個"},{"start":5908.149,"end":5928.523,"text":"燃油車然後改用電動車的一個目的同時我們也希望國內的電動車的產業能夠持續的發展鼓勵消費者買那我們的產業也能夠發展起來我覺得這也是一個很同樣的一個目的在裡面其實政策修正我是建議就是說你要延長授權給地方政府免徵這個電動車量的使用牌照稅"},{"start":5932.099,"end":5942.241,"text":"是授權的因為他是地方稅所以地方政府得他是地方稅可是他撿不到這些錢他沒有受益到"},{"start":5948.837,"end":5969.953,"text":"我的意思是說地方政府沒有收到這些錢那沒關係 部長我們可以會後我們再一起探討一下其實在這裡還是建議你就是說你必須要你剛才就有特別講到跨部會的一個合作我們是不是可以設置一個電動車免稅的一個補助基金"},{"start":5970.774,"end":5989.85,"text":"那這個基金其實我們可以用來調整免稅的範圍跟對象還有你的逐步的退場機制其實你現在推動的非常好你的退場機制要出來啊是了解我想委員這個建議很好我們再跟相關的部會然後再來討論也跟委員請教"},{"start":5993.232,"end":6016.583,"text":"再請教妳 妳有沒有建立一個成效的評估的制度那個部分都會有的因為我們在提出稅法的優惠的時候都要目的事業主管機關他提稅師支出評估然後比較具體的好不好每一年也會來 署長妳來做補充一下就是說成效評估"},{"start":6018.874,"end":6032.611,"text":"報告委員我們現在納保法的規定都是要做稅制支出評估那像這個法案的稅制支出評估我們也會送立法院這邊參考另外我們會要求他必須要去定期揭露他整個實施的成效"},{"start":6034.048,"end":6060.149,"text":"所以我還是要再回到一句話再請問你們就是說部長跟署長你們對於這個稅制你們是滿意的雖然它減碳的成效基本上我們看起來就是說其實我一直找不到就是一個比較具體的一個數目所有的官方的資料裡頭找不到不知道是環保局環境部他們"},{"start":6060.993,"end":6083.421,"text":"用的方式其實是我們不了解的還是剛才署長你回答的這個我也聽不懂你要告訴我說啊這個有幾千輛的這個什麼電動車這個都太籠統了到底你的排放量你到底減少了多少我們希望有一個正確的一個數字給我們做參考好不好我們再提送報告給委員同時"},{"start":6084.801,"end":6098.031,"text":"也看在哪應該要揭露這樣的一個成果讓全國民眾了解是嘛這樣子我們支持你的這個修法那個正當性會更強好不好謝謝委員提示謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝賴慧雲委員的質詢接下來我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":6115.058,"end":6116.244,"text":"謝謝召委我可不可以請部長請莊部長"},{"start":6122.987,"end":6146.527,"text":"委員好部長好今天雖然是貨物稅的修法但我今天早上提案報告說明我已經說得很清楚我就不再佔用時間但是我今天倒是因為時間有限我還是要請教你幾個我長期關注的議題第一個就是有關於公益出租包括包租代管的免稅額的豁免的部分"},{"start":6148.989,"end":6163.679,"text":"賴總統為了達到居住正義因為我們現在要蓋社宅 找土地包括成本都非常非常的高所以他有兩個重要的手段就是透過公益出租人跟包租代管的制度這個制度事實上我個人非常的支持"},{"start":6164.96,"end":6184.857,"text":"但是如何达到最好最高的效益我想在同一个办公室在这里我也跟你讨论过好几次当然我们现在也透过税制的诱因我们抑制税金的逃漏税还有我们要想办法提升房东投入市场的意愿也就是说让"},{"start":6186.318,"end":6200.78,"text":"提供願意出租的房東更多但是根據預算中心的統計我們近五年來還有包括我們查核租賃所得的申報案件大概有將近三成的案件都要補稅"},{"start":6202.802,"end":6229.638,"text":"那也就代表很多房東事實上是沒有繳稅的是沒有繳稅的他不願意報稅表示租屋市場逃漏稅的問題其實到現在為止還是非常的嚴重依據主計總處的調查在2020年我們的人口包括住宅普查顯示我們全台灣有87.6萬戶租屋的房戶但是在財政部綜合所得稅的列出"},{"start":6229.998,"end":6250.519,"text":"出租所得僅只有32萬筆也就是說80萬戶扣掉32萬筆也就是說可能有50萬戶的租賃收入是沒有申報的狀況所以我們現在不斷的鼓勵房東必須要釋出出租房東把住宅空的房子"},{"start":6251.4,"end":6272.677,"text":"是出來出租從2023年到2024年從政府申請租金補貼其實成效還不錯有將近78萬戶申請這個在內政部申請租屋的補貼但是從房屋稅跟地價稅或綜合所得稅的減免的戶數大概只有10萬戶15萬戶到26萬戶的狀況從這個數據上看就是說很多"},{"start":6281.144,"end":6305.907,"text":"很多出租給補貼戶的房東很多都不是公益出租人所以這個部分未來我們如何增加誘因因為國家沒有太多的錢我們雖然說稅計順利但有超徵稅收但是我們有更多的地方需要運用我想這個部分你可能應該是比我還要清楚所以如何提高出租還有包租代管的意願是當務之急"},{"start":6307.308,"end":6320.813,"text":"所以在這邊我再次的強調從內政部106年的統計實施包租代管公益出租人之後我們租賃契約有不斷的上升包括從110年我們提高免稅額之後15000塊之後我們看到擴大租金補貼之後租賃契約有大幅攀升到達60萬戶"},{"start":6327.876,"end":6352.421,"text":"但是這樣足不足夠我覺得我上次有跟你提因為你用一萬五千塊的免稅額全體使用但是我們有城鄉的差距在台北市在雲林在苗栗他可能租金的狀況就落差非常大租金的這幾年我們也都知道民生外食族跟租金是漲幅最高的"},{"start":6353.101,"end":6380.579,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得不能只有考慮稅損的部分我覺得在財政部立場你們都只考慮到稅損但是如果配合國家政策我們怎麼樣讓更多的人願意加入公益出租人然後把房子出租包括包租代管那什麼樣的一個提高免稅額是一個合理的狀況我覺得內政部跟財政部應該統一一起來檢討這個課題"},{"start":6383.642,"end":6400.437,"text":"達到賴總統百萬戶就是社宅供出來我不應該講社宅供出來就是有需要的人讓大家人人都有房可以住我覺得因為現在弱勢族群越來越多我希望部長可以去考量這個議題這部長可以嗎"},{"start":6403.502,"end":6424.212,"text":"了解謝謝委員委員大家對於希望要租房子的人都能夠租到房子我再次提醒不能只考慮到稅損對我了解除了稅損之外我們也要考慮租稅的一個公平性不能只考慮稅損那目前來說那個房東每個月租金收入的免稅額是1.5萬所以1.5萬那1.5萬的話這是參考六都直轄市的一個平均的一個租金來算出來的"},{"start":6434.257,"end":6454.172,"text":"1.5萬那這個部分的1.5萬也跟我們所謂的租金的免稅特別扣除額是相對的是他們兩個正好也相對到18萬那這個部分我們要考慮到如果房東都收的租金不需要繳所得稅而薪資所得者都要繳所得稅部長因為我今天議題很多我說我建議找內政部一起來考量從"},{"start":6458.735,"end":6477.248,"text":"更多的公益出租人願意加入在全國六都直轄市包括偏鄉大家都願意加入之外如何能夠用你手邊的工具手段不要只考慮到稅損如何去提高或因地制宜去做一些調整如何提高我希望用專案來討論好不好跟內政部一起來討論對 跟內政部我們用各種方法好 謝謝部長我第二個問題就是我要請問一下護理人員的獎勵金的所得"},{"start":6489.117,"end":6507.089,"text":"總統在重要的政策跟政見特別在衛福部的部分在醫療的部分改善我們醫療人員的環境包括在去年賴總統的政見當中留住醫事人員包括讓醫護人員留在職場上留人留財是他重要的政策在去年度113年7月"},{"start":6519.837,"end":6539.129,"text":"讓願意職業班的同仁還有包括一些負責執行這些企劃的醫護人員可以拿到一些獎勵在這邊我再一次提醒就是說去年在這一塊你們把它列入其他所得但是今年你們把它調成薪資所得"},{"start":6540.589,"end":6552.896,"text":"在這一塊的部分當然對於稅基的部分是沒有差別但是我要再一次提醒就是說這一塊如何達到目的不要因為處理這一塊而增加醫院的負擔這一塊我希望部長可以一併納入考量因為同時你把它納入薪資所得的同時"},{"start":6561.1,"end":6574.529,"text":"醫院也有一定的負擔在裡面所以怎麼樣去把它就是做一些權衡的考量我希望財政部在這一塊一併去做處理好 那我最後一個問題還有兩分鐘時間我要再問一下才化法的部分"},{"start":6575.558,"end":6601.694,"text":"我覺得今天我們國民黨黨團也在開記者會我覺得從去年包括前一次我在質詢的時候雖然部長沒有來 然而次長在現場到底我們對於財化法的修法你們跟地方溝通了四次當時你們提到說地方大部分其實都覺得目前的溝通方法是可以的但是我覺得"},{"start":6603.114,"end":6624.885,"text":"財政部是報喜不報憂另外到底114我們當時調整說我們當時修法的內容是指說今年一般性的補助款不得低於去年我要請問部長我們的修法我們說不得低於去年我們當時在三讀的版本我們指的到底是113年還114年"},{"start":6629.182,"end":6641.25,"text":"我們的七七年到底是指113年還是114年我們修法的內容我們當時修法的目的到底是113年還是114年"},{"start":6646.102,"end":6659.94,"text":"對 當時去年12月底三讀通過的裁劃法有提到一般性補助款不得低於前一年那所以我們的目的我們當時的目的到底修法的國民黨的版本民眾黨的版本到底目的是什麼"},{"start":6661.641,"end":6672.149,"text":"那個目的可能我們第七年到底指的是哪一年我覺得提案的黨團的說明裡面也沒有提到是哪一年所以在計算上我們當時修法通過其實是去年通過的對"},{"start":6676.994,"end":6705.848,"text":"那就是指113年或112年嘛對不對可是您提的這個部分有關一般性補助款在這個主總他這次在計算115年的時候他是用今年114年的2501億來算這一般性補助款的額度我們指的是不得低於去年我們指的是不得低於去年我們版本不是不得低於去年你們現在跟地方溝通是用114年的版本"},{"start":6707.646,"end":6730.681,"text":"所以我覺得你們財政部在玩文字遊戲睜眼說瞎話如果財化法已經通過特別部長你是基層出來的你應該守法才對啊你們跟地方溝通像114年的當機期年地方是你們以上對下溝通各地方政府怎麼敢跟你們講"},{"start":6732.677,"end":6759.331,"text":"而且違背我們地方我們在立法院修法的目的你非常清楚立法院修過的版本是什麼內容你們用這樣的方式在跟地方溝通你們就是在玩文字遊戲如果到今天為止過了大罷免如果從過去賴市長到現在的賴總統還不知民間疾苦還在玩這些文字遊戲我非常遺憾"},{"start":6760.578,"end":6775.595,"text":"在玩兩面手法到現在還在玩政治遊戲苦苦的地方以台北市為例今年砍掉的就是學校班班有冷氣還有重要的基礎建設包括兒少老人身心障礙包括學校的電費補助"},{"start":6778.311,"end":6789.52,"text":"這些都變成是地方買單甚至有些縣市可能因為你們這樣子一般補助款的砍掉或者是基期年你們把它認定是114年很多縣市都走不下去委員台北市的115年的中央統籌分配稅款增加452億"},{"start":6796.585,"end":6811.099,"text":"七七年我們的版本是以113年我們的七七年是以113年也就是每一年你們都應該是比到前一年當時我們通過版本的意思是113年我非常遺憾你們到現在還在玩文字遊戲好 謝謝李彥秀委員的資訊接下來我們請顏寬恒委員資訊"},{"start":6827.12,"end":6837.687,"text":"主席各位列席官員各位委員通知大家早主席要先請交通部趙專委經濟部邱署長交通部趙專員還有經濟部邱署長委員好"},{"start":6850.908,"end":6869.562,"text":"大家好今天要審查是使用牌照稅法我想是沒有什麼爭議電動汽機車是國際潮流主要是因為配合永續再生以及淨零排碳今天要延長電動汽機車輛免徵使用牌照稅其實不只是要鼓勵民眾多購買"},{"start":6871.203,"end":6900.272,"text":"電動汽機車主要是要提醒政府必須要為電動汽機車做更完善的規劃那近年來我們可以看到電動汽機車是在街上都這個變多了一個趨勢那公車也逐漸的轉型為電動化但是實際上因為整體規劃做得不夠完善所以電動汽機車的比例那我想要請問一下交通部到今天純電動車的佔比規模是多少"},{"start":6902.338,"end":6915.406,"text":"占比跟我們報告目前電動小客車到目前總登記數大概是11萬將近12萬輛占比啦我說占比不是數量大概幾%"},{"start":6921.938,"end":6927.267,"text":"電動機車到目前為止它的登記數大概是大概是79萬將近80萬然後它的佔比大概是5.4%"},{"start":6935.937,"end":6955.34,"text":"補給率如果是按照總穿上數來看的話大概是5.4%左右5.4%所以我想這個比例是不成比例我們台灣電動車一年會比一年更加競爭Smart協會在10月底公佈電動機車政策2025"},{"start":6956.641,"end":6972.843,"text":"民意大調查調查結果顯示說有八成的民眾要求政府應該更積極的推動這些相關政策超過半數的民眾直指政府推動力道不足現行補助效益有限已經大幅延宕這個運具"},{"start":6975.005,"end":7001.24,"text":"電動化的進程實際上面臨購車的時候在選擇的時候民眾最重視的都是車價還有就是說政府補助這個都會影響購買意願的首要跟次要的因素從調查結果來看依現行政策的目標與實際執行之間的政策落差導致民眾認為購買力道不足交通部這邊對於電動汽機車未來有沒有更積極的規劃"},{"start":7006.304,"end":7013.551,"text":"這個對於電動汽機車的尚未普及化中央補助就大幅縮水的情況經濟部這裡對於新購電動車有沒有考慮恢復以往補助金額這兩點請說明"},{"start":7021.643,"end":7048.494,"text":"報告委員有關電動機車補助的部分我們今年經濟部有加大補助的力道就是說針對電動機車補助加碼1000元針對電能補充設施的部分我們是從上限30萬元增加到60萬元希望能夠增加更多的誘因鼓勵企業還有民眾他們可以多使用"},{"start":7048.894,"end":7066.587,"text":"民眾現在的購買都轉為觀望原本想要購買就是因為政府這個政府補助的部分當然還是會考慮到選擇購買油車因為現在加油方便對不對那里程焦慮因為充電樁的不普及"},{"start":7068.889,"end":7088.459,"text":"這要如何才能夠達成2050淨零排單的目標我覺得還是要應該要像財政部一樣大方一點有心要推動這個政策那補助就不要吝嗇尤其因為如果失去這些誘因那導致整個銷量整體大幅的下滑那你之前做的努力全部都白費掉了"},{"start":7089.119,"end":7104.51,"text":"所以經濟部請回去研議針對這些新購電動車以及太舊換新的獎勵補助方面看能不能再加碼來恢復以前的一個補助水準好不好是那你先請回再請教交通部"},{"start":7109.006,"end":7132.387,"text":"我們一般加油 遊車隨時到加油站加油馬上就可以解決但是因為充電樁這些充電焦慮 里程焦慮我想根據公路總局數據還有歐盟的建議電動車跟充電樁的比例應該是10比1他們建議是10比1台灣目前大概是40比1"},{"start":7134.186,"end":7159.44,"text":"40比1相差了4倍那等於說這種量能遠遠不足所以光是這個原因那我們要買車要太舊換新他就會考慮到說這個充電的不方便還有里程焦慮等等那這個民意調查發現電動車車主使用家用充電的比例高達八成"},{"start":7160.713,"end":7175.043,"text":"也就是我們剛剛講的這個原因所以只有兩成多的車主會在他們的社區內可能有這種設施充電樁其他的都是自行購買來安裝而且花費也非常的高昂"},{"start":7176.283,"end":7203.615,"text":"尤其是社區 管委會這部分要跟管委會來回溝通可能時間就非常的長所以這個就是購買電動車的一個痛點之一我想理想的部分大家都希望能夠這樣子主要就是減碳但是充電樁不足已經變成是我國電動車數量及發展2025近零排碳最大的一個瓶頸"},{"start":7204.935,"end":7228.371,"text":"就算財政部祭出一些免稅 減稅的 減徵優惠這效果也不大所以就是說等於是政府無法消除民眾對於電動車的一個充電焦慮那經濟部對於這個問題有沒有什麼改善措施有沒有什麼目標讓跟民眾保證2030電動車與充電中的比例可以達到10比1有沒有 計畫跟委員報告"},{"start":7229.076,"end":7252.843,"text":"目前到今年的9月我們全國大概已經有13135支的充電樁那它對於相對於那電動車的數量呢相對於我們現在電動車的數量的話它的車裝比目前是8.9比1那8.9比1的數量呢是委員講到這邊所提的電動車歐盟建議電動車跟充電樁比例是10比1的部分的話其實我們現在國內8.9比1實際上是優於歐盟建議的10比1的這個數字"},{"start":7254.583,"end":7271.391,"text":"數字事實上是數量上是比歐盟來得更好的後面有一個39.7比1這個部分的話大概是歐盟有另外一個數字就是充電除了從慢充之外還有快充快充的部分的話他是希望能夠達到80比1在國內快充的充電窗大概有3386支"},{"start":7273.132,"end":7298.215,"text":"我們的快充的車裝比是34.7比1這些技術上需要去克服的問題我想請你們就趕快按照計畫然後加緊腳步把這些推動我國電動車的決心就讓更要設法化解民眾的一個充電焦慮好不好好 我們會願意好 你請回最後一點時間我請交通部莊部長"},{"start":7300.804,"end":7304.597,"text":"莊部長有請莊部長財政部莊部長不好意思 講錯了 財政部"},{"start":7307.253,"end":7335.853,"text":"委員好部長早以往一開始都是先請部長部長主要就是因為我在每一次都會跟你討論到租屋黑市的問題根據2021到2023年度個人非資助型房屋租賃所得虛補稅者每年都超過25萬件個人房屋租賃查核資查獲率都超過5成"},{"start":7337.054,"end":7357.942,"text":"那更發現2020年到2024年需要補徵的建樹的稅額都是呈現增加的趨勢從這些執行的成效來看我們財政部還是留於這個紙上的宣示所以部長加強個人房屋租賃所得專案查核這項計畫已經四年了"},{"start":7358.502,"end":7362.964,"text":"就數據來看要加強的空間還很大所以部長你要怎麼做才能夠降低房東逃漏報稅的情況還有沒有什麼積極的辦法是委員這個部分謝謝委員的提示我們也會積極的加強來查核讓有房屋出租而有租金所得要誠實申報所得稅這是委員我想主要執行的目的當然我們也會選擇"},{"start":7387.657,"end":7413.73,"text":"一定的適當的區域來做加強的一個查核是部長 我再強調就是說這個黑市的存在不是只有稅務的問題因為主要是居住正義還有住屋安全安全的問題更重要所以對於這些漏報的房東不要一再的寬容是的不要一再寬容這個要讓年輕世代有一個安全對於制度的信任所以我想部長 我不要"},{"start":7414.91,"end":7423.512,"text":"除了宣傳 宣導之外我們要看到的是說有什麼具體改革能夠改善這些 好不好好的 謝謝委員是 謝謝好 謝謝顏寬文委員好 接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":7446.127,"end":7469.267,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關司長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們財政部莊部長請莊部長還有交通部的趙專門委員交通部趙專門委員衛福部的吳副司長是衛福部吳副司長然後經濟部的邱署長請準備經濟部邱署長委員好"},{"start":7472.43,"end":7500.712,"text":"部長我想台灣高齡化社會那你覺得高齡化社會有哪些現象我們現在台灣還有那種三代同堂的大家庭嗎多不多現在都是小家庭那超高齡化社會年長者超過65歲上我考一下你知道嗎現在65歲上的長者持有身心障礙手冊的多不多比例多少大概應該就我們了解跟衛福部聊大概有超過一半"},{"start":7501.178,"end":7520.803,"text":"超過一半 長照師 副市長在嗎怎麼剛剛有請你 你沒有上來呢對啊 那就打啊有沒有報告委員 就是我們的長者人口已經降兩成了有伸張手這多少"},{"start":7525.767,"end":7550.67,"text":"我们的那个身障者的人口大概是120万左右我是问你65岁以上的占比65岁以上的大概差不多一半左右对嘛所以只要65岁年龄超过65岁一半有身障手册来再请庄部长来我们看一下这些人他的身心障碍别他可能要去洗肾有可能要去采买对不对还常常回诊需求那富康巴士够不够"},{"start":7552.897,"end":7566.426,"text":"你們有沒有照顧長者的經驗在場你們在台前的有沒有人照顧來再問一下社會師長照師是不是富康法是足以滿足這些需求嗎地方政務的"},{"start":7568.247,"end":7596.287,"text":"目前來說就是除了復康巴士以外那當然在長照的部分也還有交通接送的一些那家人是不是最主要的支持者同住家人同住家人是會有協助照顧然後跟身上還有長照的相關資源所以我們現在長輩要照顧你要靠政府還是不夠主要是家庭我們看一下照顧長輩的我們看到一個二親等的規定我再告訴你什麼是二親等二親等是你的配偶是一親等"},{"start":7597.088,"end":7614.554,"text":"你的手足是一斤等不可能你的尊心主来照顾你对不对65岁以上的人这些人可能都没有办法照顾他那他的一斤等的子女如果他是没有子女的或者说他有子女但是子女不在他的孙子女"},{"start":7615.523,"end":7641.799,"text":"可能年紀還小 沒有領駕照那跟他同住的他的侄生跟他配偶的侄生如果跟他同住有沒有可能來協助照顧這個長輩家人的照顧是一定會有的我是說這樣的一個照顧的狀況二親等的可能性只要遇到沒有子女的幾乎就很難三親等的反而還有機會 對不對"},{"start":7643.686,"end":7649.171,"text":"是不是這樣子 二等輕 三等輕好 往下看那現在我們的使用牌照稅法怎麼規定"},{"start":7652.27,"end":7676.829,"text":"目前使用牌照稅法對於持有身心障礙本人配偶或同一戶二親等以內的親屬所有才能夠幫他開車得到這個使用牌照稅的減免是不是這樣子目前是對一個同戶級二親等那如果剛剛我那個情況二親等的都很困難的情況下又是無子女的他的直升來照顧他可不可以得到同樣的優惠"},{"start":7680.462,"end":7709.067,"text":"現在法令不行嘛所以我就提出修法嘛往下看下一件我們的條文條文條文不見了好 沒辦法我們這裡呢是說以二清等以內的所有那麼我希望把它加入如果只要同住不受二清等的限制那至於不受這個限制哪些可以納入你們再去"},{"start":7709.929,"end":7730.496,"text":"按照實際的需求去擬定可以嗎第一個就是說我們現在因為是以戶籍戶籍登記他比較明確那同住那在基增機關目前來說我現在不是說同住不好認定我是說不受二輕等的限制只要有這個事實他是三輕等的直升也可不可以適用使用牌照稅的優惠"},{"start":7731.557,"end":7759.33,"text":"你是指说把二清等放宽为三清等我没有说三清等我说不受这个限制但是什么样的人可以纳入就不要那么的硬邦邦的我已经告诉你目前现行法二清等的实况上很困难他只要没有子女几乎没有二清等以内的可以照顾他但是如果有同住的其他的直生或者其他的人经过你们认定的来我问一下卫福部那个长导师知不知识"},{"start":7761.311,"end":7788.325,"text":"支不支持支不支持同住家人來照顧他的長者簡單講支不支持等於是說針對照顧者的這個部分你簡單回答支不支持同住家人照顧長者可以減輕家庭照顧者的負擔所以支持對不對只是說法規的部分我們其實還是遵守財政部法規你們要遵守所以告訴財政部我修這個法讓你們有機會不受這個二金人的限制支不支持"},{"start":7790.015,"end":7816.82,"text":"聽懂了沒有問財政部長跟委員報告當然這個部分要放寬以後讓身心障礙的人都可以利用這個行政部門但是這個是地方稅我們其實還要尊重地方政府的一個看法所以你們可以授權讓地方政府根據他們的需求高齡化嚴重的他們自然的放得比較寬是不是這樣子你們在稅法上的制定不要那麼的死硬"},{"start":7817.76,"end":7845.452,"text":"這些人民有實際需求的你不要為德不足你訂了一個二輕等結果實際上太少人能夠適用不能達到照顧的美意這就很可惜好不好往下看接下來我們來看一下那個經濟部台灣是不是成為全世界少數具有自製氫能電巴的一個國家我們有一個"},{"start":7846.431,"end":7862.153,"text":"自製的電巴還有有加輕站而且我們的氫能巴呢氫能巴不是電巴氫能巴是人家的一半現在要引進我們的自製率可以達到7乘5還要引進地量氫燃料還有電池的重心卡車署長是不是這樣子"},{"start":7863.939,"end":7890.808,"text":"對 因為這個輕能車的話也是一個國際上一個發展的一個重要的方向所以我們經濟部也會支持一些相關產業的一些技術的研發來支持這個輕能車的一個發展所以經濟部是支持的好 往下看那輕能車它除了補助有沒有機會免稅在經濟部的立場來講如果輕能車我們要發展有補助嘛補助是經濟部產業的角色嘛那你經濟部支持也比照電動車可以免稅還要使用牌照稅"},{"start":7891.776,"end":7915.288,"text":"輕能車現在就認定上來講也是屬於電動車的一種所以可以得到貨物稅跟使用牌照稅的減免可以嗎確定點頭來財政部長讓你坐球給你了你爽快的點頭就很簡單這個輕能車這個部分經車輛主管機關交通部認定它是屬於完全以電能為動力的電動車的範圍所以可以嗎對 如果是這樣認定的話"},{"start":7916.633,"end":7942.441,"text":"那就可以 這部長繼續來 謝謝署長來 我們現在問一下普發現金回顧一下普發現金在疫情之間三倍券 五倍券目的是鼓勵消費對不對 部長是的那目前普發現金1萬元是要鼓勵消費嗎還是讓部分民眾減輕負擔滿足到急迫的需求對不對我想都有都有好 那如果沒有急迫需求的我們不鼓勵這沒有急迫需求的1萬元他拿去儲蓄或投資"},{"start":7945.413,"end":7970.903,"text":"大家領了以後各自有自己的想法自己去運用嘛所以這個普發現金一萬會急著去領的是有急需的對不對但是如果不是很急的我們希望他儲蓄或者是投資那投資的部分我們目前行政院的政策不是你財政部的政策行政院的政策是不是要讓台灣打造成雅致中心是不是行政院的政策財政部支不支持"},{"start":7972.034,"end":7985.235,"text":"行政院政策財政部當然是遵循所以我們鼓勵投資TISA我們要免徵資本利得稅鼓勵二則一課稅可抵稅額只要不完整所得稅課稅原則之下財政部都會支持對不對"},{"start":7986.823,"end":8003.373,"text":"有關TISA現在的限制裡面有 寫在這裡鼓勵所得併入眾所稅後有5%的免稅上限8萬元或不併入所得採稅率28%分離課稅或者債券的利息採分離課稅10%對不對現在都有這個方式可以再進一步往下看"},{"start":8004.404,"end":8024.632,"text":"來 我們舉例 以前我要上班的時代我們會盡量的想辦法爭取加薪現在的上班族不是只有看加薪他希望財富自由 他會有被動收入被動收入就去投資就算年薪50萬 他可能也會去投資這些投資的內容 假設這個個案年薪50萬 股利有10萬元 很厲害被動所得 還不錯"},{"start":8028.786,"end":8056.833,"text":"扣掉這些免稅額 扣除額薪資扣除額之後可能乘以5%的所得稅 適用稅率要繳7700元的稅如果適用目前財政部的做法他這個10萬元目前是8.5%為上限他可以得到8500元的可抵稅率所以7700減去8500他可以退回800元 是不是這樣子好 是這樣子所以這個是有鼓勵效果的 對不對"},{"start":8058.049,"end":8084.614,"text":"好 那現在假如說我們也鼓勵說他如果有到的這個1萬元的現金他去買TESA連續10個月因為TESA要每個月至少1000我們鼓勵他先定期定額那他把這個被動收入存下去之後只要他有做這個動作我們就讓他的那8.5%提升到10%換言之他可退稅的金額變成可以退多少退1300元"},{"start":8086.584,"end":8115.015,"text":"退1300元 OK部長你覺得這樣有沒有鼓勵那些比較不是手頭很寬裕但是他對未來有期望他希望讓自己的未來更美麗我們用這樣的稅率來支持他剛剛那個情況8.5%只能退700如果他有把TESA這一萬元在未來四個月內他有持續的去購買我們就讓他明年呢有機會多退一些錢您支持嗎"},{"start":8117.574,"end":8138.013,"text":"自著調整如果您委員您這邊是指就普發1萬元這個部分對 我只是說普發1萬元TESA這個部分去來做投資趕快 趕快演繹因為這個明年才用如果說他今年有把這1萬元去買TESA定期定額至少1000 延續10個月你告訴他明年你可以多退1500"},{"start":8139.451,"end":8163.457,"text":"你就讓他開不開心我想這個部分我們再來不是再來研究要趕快急著去促成行政院的政策財政部要一體支持不要談到減稅你們就扣的跟什麼一樣好不好了解好那最後一個你們要看你們端出來了我已經講很久了在2025年行動支付享有的營業稅1%的優惠即將落幕什麼時候可以推出新的延續型的優化的政策"},{"start":8164.974,"end":8184.926,"text":"目前正在處理當中現在是幾月現在11月現在11月5號請問什麼時候可以推出請委員請署長來補充報告委員我們現在已經立好方案了然後現在請國際國稅局表示意見因為總是要確認基金事務上的等國稅局表現意見國稅局會拖著不表示意見嗎不會不敢不敢嗎那11月底可不可以公佈"},{"start":8186.326,"end":8190.768,"text":"11月底前公佈好不好讓這些中小型的業者有機會吧不要什麼好事都拖到最後一刻我們就以這個為目標 謝謝謝謝中嘉賓委員的質詢"},{"start":8207.611,"end":8230.079,"text":"好 我做一下宣告待會李昆城委員發言完畢然後我林思銘委員發言之後我們休息十分鐘接下來我們請李昆城委員質詢謝謝主席我們請莊部長好 請莊部長委員好"},{"start":8237.003,"end":8262.55,"text":"不是 今天我們普發一彎是開始線上預登記是不是是的我剛好我的身分證字尾是1所以我今天可以去登記我早上我也去登記了我就用線上登記的方式早上看起來沒什麼塞車可能因為我們分流的關係今天好像是0跟1"},{"start":8264.025,"end":8272.27,"text":"有分流 是那請問一下如果我今天去預先登記那最快哪時候可以領到這個一萬塊"},{"start":8274.768,"end":8302.041,"text":"11月12号入账11月12号入账11月12号入账对 开始入账那请问一下现在有很多的银行或是商家就是在讲说如何放大这1万块那我们的国银或是范公股银行有这一个放大1万块的什么红利 激励这个措施还是希望说我们能够把这1万块拿去消费比较好"},{"start":8303.757,"end":8330.027,"text":"都有很多的措施包含這個但是都有配合他們的信用卡那些再來就希望大家都能夠去做一些消費活動不過好像是把它存進去 存進去才有這一個也有一些是用存的所以部長認為說是存進去比較好還是把它花出去比較好看大家的各自選擇 自由運用那部長你會存起來還是花出去"},{"start":8331.381,"end":8334.924,"text":"我大概會有自己相關的一些決定來做怎麼樣處置這個1萬塊就1萬塊啊那就促進經濟來講應該是花出去吧"},{"start":8340.849,"end":8346.15,"text":"花出去平常也在花也不會因為這1萬塊就再去我會有其他的處理我們不是在處理100萬我們就講說處理這1萬塊而已我就會花出去請教一下因為我們今天是使用牌照稅我們延長使用牌照稅的實施期間到2030年對不對"},{"start":8368.953,"end":8371.855,"text":"對 189年這延長五年五年 對這延長五年是因為是要配合我們這個2030年我們行政院有一個淨零排放的一個階段性的目標我先請教一下部長因為我們這個是有貨物稅 有牌照稅就貨物稅的部分因為這其實應該都沒有爭議"},{"start":8394.274,"end":8397.46,"text":"貨物稅的部分我們這個是完稅價格在140萬的違憲 對不對"},{"start":8400.529,"end":8429.084,"text":"以下的話免徵 以上是二分之一我請教一下部長 署長在這邊我們也希望說解免貨物稅能夠讓消費者他能夠感受到所以說進口商或是經銷商在簽訂買賣契約的時候有確實跟消費者說明說該車應退還的貨物稅是因定價的策略反映在售價上面或是另行約定退還的方式"},{"start":8429.764,"end":8437.675,"text":"这个有说清楚吗我们目前的方式是怎么样目前来说这个部分我想这个是署长在食物激增上我们来做一个说明"},{"start":8438.686,"end":8462.059,"text":"包括委員目前的不管是進口商或經商因為我們這貨物稅是出廠稅那是由產製廠商就先繳納的或是進口商在進口時就先繳了這些貨物稅所以後面我們退是退給就是我們所謂的納稅友人就是進口商或是所謂產製的廠商那基本上目前實務商那是退給車商 對"},{"start":8463.34,"end":8466.443,"text":"所以也測商等於測商沒有繳稅所以它就會在買賣契約上目前我們看到都在買賣契約上這部分它就會扣掉所以有確定說扣除的部分的話比如說140萬以下大概可以扣掉多少"},{"start":8481.375,"end":8488.601,"text":"看它的完稅價格如果以140萬為例現在是25%的稅那就35萬所以它就等於因為我們完稅價格跟市售價格不一樣完稅價格是有課稅價格市售它還會疊加譬如它的利潤 運費 保險費等等之類它會疊加上去所以它最後就必須要把那35萬如果以完稅價140萬為例如果它最後疊加售價是170萬它把那35萬扣退給消費者"},{"start":8510.96,"end":8530.522,"text":"這目前都有規定很清楚嗎我們目前是沒有在法令上這樣說但是在實務上因為既然沒有繳這個稅他就會把這個稅扣掉這樣子對於車商有什麼樣的一個約制力就是我們希望說扣掉貨物稅是讓我們的消費者他願意去買電動車"},{"start":8532.364,"end":8548.479,"text":"增加電動車就是讓我們這個近年排放的目標能夠達成你如果說有扣掉貨物稅免到排到稅了結果排到稅應該是消費者如果貨物稅的話如果沒有反映給消費者的話我們只是讓車商得到這些好處而已"},{"start":8549.164,"end":8566.203,"text":"包括委員根據過去我們退還減徵貨物稅的經驗的話目前看到的是都有反應如果就像我們上次在未含糖飲料要減徵貨物稅我們免稅的時候我們也有要求因為金額太小所以我們做消費"},{"start":8569.327,"end":8584.142,"text":"這個金額比較大目前我們看到的是都有反應因為金額太大消費者自己知道他會爭取這個權益我還是希望說雖然這個是延續性的政策但是我還是希望說財政部這方面能不能把它定得更清楚"},{"start":8586.141,"end":8594.304,"text":"我們研究看看怎麼訂或是透過請主管部會去加強就像上次一樣請主管部會去加強那這個應該算是經濟部對 目前是經濟部好 那你們跟經濟部去討論一下我們還是希望說這個免掉貨物稅之後這個"},{"start":8602.426,"end":8619.068,"text":"能夠讓消費者他能夠得到說那的確我應該是買電動車那也得你的確貨物稅有減免140萬以下全免140萬以上我們就看那個比率再做調整對不對那把這一個比較清楚的一個方式我覺得還是定出來好不好"},{"start":8622.031,"end":8644.097,"text":"這個可能要請經濟部也來回答一下因為我們這個是配合行政院2030年的運具電動化的階段性的目標經濟部我們有一個2030年運具電動化的目標是電動小客車市售比要30%電動機車市售比35%這有可能透過免貨物稅免牌照稅能夠達到這個目標嗎署長是"},{"start":8648.099,"end":8663.696,"text":"報告委員我們透過這樣子的一個租稅的減免可以鼓勵更多的行賄者那我是說達到這個目標嗎對 這個是我們很有信心可以達到這個目標有信心達到這個目標距離現在還有一段差距現在是多少"},{"start":8664.276,"end":8672.102,"text":"現在是大概10%左右對 10% 20%要成長20%5年的時間20%有辦法嗎但是因為這一兩年它的電動車的成長率都是蠻高的以這樣的成長趨勢的話我們當然希望說能夠達到因為我們政策上面已經做一些優惠了好 那再請一下蘇珊請回請教一下"},{"start":8684.932,"end":8701.773,"text":"部長剛從韓國參加APEC回來現在韓國的媒體他們也對於說台灣的經濟成長感到驚訝不論是我們的GDP人均GDP有可能在今年會超過韓國是不是"},{"start":8704.685,"end":8711.97,"text":"是的我們預測人均GDP今年在37430這是韓國 然後台灣是38066所以這個是在時隔22年之後台灣的人均GDP再度超越韓國然後我們的經濟成長率也超越他們"},{"start":8725.979,"end":8755.562,"text":"請教一下 部長您剛從韓國回來您認為我們經濟成長率跟人均GDP因韓國的策略是什麼主要是我們的財政政策我們的整個國家的政策選對的方向因為第一個我們知道之前我們有加速投資台灣的三大方案讓台灣的資金以吸引在國外的資金回來投資這個投資其實就奠定了我們後續AI整個供應鏈更為完整"},{"start":8756.022,"end":8769.088,"text":"所以我們的出口暢旺所以這一次我們在APEC的時候南韓的幾位官員都很羨慕我們台灣這一次的經濟成長率幾乎是比他們高出很多那最主要是我們加速台灣投資的三大方案的一個策略選擇那台商回台投資以及讓我們支撐整個出口這一次的暢旺"},{"start":8777.484,"end":8788.451,"text":"整個出口都創歷年的新高請教一下部長今年經濟成長率看起來是會在5%以上對於明年經濟成長率你的看法"},{"start":8789.921,"end":8809.737,"text":"經濟成長率整個的估測是在主機總署那主機總署都會定期的一個公佈那應該是不會超過5%對不對目前我看到他的資料大概沒有到5%不過可能也會隨時的調整修正大概2.5到3左右初步他是這樣的估測那我再請教一下部長"},{"start":8810.498,"end":8833.596,"text":"那主席總書他也預估在這個經濟規模成長還有新台幣升值的兩大因素助攻之下明年的GDP有可能突破4萬美元那部長覺得有可能達到嗎我們上次突破3萬是在2021年那有可能 您認為說在這種經濟成長的規模之下有可能明年的GDP成長突破4萬美元嗎"},{"start":8834.566,"end":8842.954,"text":"我想這個部分還是要尊重主席總署的一個估測沒有 那就您的看法當然預測是他在預測就您的看法我想我們後續還是要持續的觀察因為還有許多不確定的因素存在那你有信心嗎美國的關稅的一個稅率最後是怎麼樣以及還有匯率的一些變動等等地緣政治風險都是要考慮的一些變動因素那部長有信心嗎"},{"start":8859.769,"end":8866.934,"text":"我們希望我們都有信心大家全國同仁一起努力同胞們一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝李坤澄召委好 我們請林思敏召委好 謝謝"},{"start":8887.172,"end":8895.572,"text":"謝謝主席主席我先請交通部趙專委還有經濟部邱署長我們請經濟部邱署長然後交通部趙專委"},{"start":8904.028,"end":8920.042,"text":"好 那個專委還有署長我想行政院推動延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的政策來藉以來鼓勵民眾購買新能源車也實現我們節能減碳和達成淨零排碳的一個目標"},{"start":8921.543,"end":8949.791,"text":"经济部也设定说在2030年我们就要电动汽车要占我们新售汽车的比重达到30%的目标来扶植我们国内的电动车产业的发展我想基本上我们修法延长5年我看我们基本上大家都赞成但是我比较关心的一个议题就是有关于油电混合车的部分"},{"start":8950.951,"end":8973.201,"text":"我們看那個環境部在112年所公布的老舊汽車泰舊換新溫室氣體減量獎勵辦法這個辦法提到說關於油電的混合動力車只要該車輛與我國能源效率的標示中它的純電形成測試值達80公里以上者可視為電動車"},{"start":8976.002,"end":8996.377,"text":"这个办法在去年的12月31号已经废止了但是环境部我们比较好奇的就是说环境部现在推出的车辆态救换新抵换煤和平台其中温室气体减量的态换活动中"},{"start":8997.651,"end":9014.34,"text":"除同樣列入油電混合車輛外也依據相同的油電混合動力的車它的純電行車標準的規定就是達80公里以上定有不同的獎勵金的一個辦法所以我要請問趙專委還有邱署長你是否贊同環境部的規範定義"},{"start":9021.644,"end":9032.55,"text":"也就是說只要該油電車與我國的能源效率標示中的純電行程測試值達80公里以上者即可視為電動車你贊不贊成這個獎勵辦法現在還有"},{"start":9040.461,"end":9052.504,"text":"各位報告這個是環境部的辦法規是不是建議行環境部來做不是 我知道我說他的辦法是規定在哪裡有獎勵辦法那從經濟部的角度你來看你贊同他因為他講四維電動車就是你這個經過測試純電的形成"},{"start":9058.506,"end":9083.799,"text":"80公里以下他都是走電的80公里以上才是走油的他說這視為電動車而且也有獎勵的規定那你認為這個視為電動車的規定這個合理嗎從你交通部的看法首先跟各位報告有關於我們了解是針對於油電混合車其實依照現在的貨物稅條例它也有檢證的這個相關的規定它有檢證規定它有檢證嗎有"},{"start":9087.219,"end":9098.58,"text":"有减增规定依照我们现在货物税我的了解是应该是货物税条例12条里面针对于油电混合是有减半的规定是 有减半的规定那进一步呢"},{"start":9100.523,"end":9105.644,"text":"可以視為電動車嗎我的問題是可以視為電動車嗎報告委員因為這分兩種有一種的話就是油電混合車剛剛莊委有提到就是說在貨物稅裡面是減半另外一種的話就是所謂的plug-in的這種類型也就是說它的電力的續航可以超過80公里以上國際上有一些國家是把它視為也是電動車的一種因為它的性能是比較跟電動車比較接近的"},{"start":9130.6,"end":9148.575,"text":"是喔 其實我想因為我看到這個相關規定就是不能免徵貨物稅嘛油電混合車還是要徵這個相關的貨物稅嘛剛才那個專委是講有減半的一個規定嘛總而言之它就是不能視為電動車嘛所以其實我的一個建議啊"},{"start":9149.235,"end":9173.107,"text":"就是為了達到節能減碳的目標油電混合車它現在民眾在從油車完全轉換成純電動車的一個過程中它也是一個銜接的一個選項只要符合環境部的規定相關獎勵辦法的規定我認為實在沒有理由不把這種依照環境部的一個規定把它視為電動車"},{"start":9175.308,"end":9195.663,"text":"所以這部分是不是請部長財政部這邊研擬它的一個可行性就是你的里程數在80公里以上才是用油之下都是去用電可不可以鼓勵說這種情況之下其實跟電動車差不多其實鼓勵它這也視為電動車"},{"start":9197.697,"end":9226.775,"text":"有沒有可能是 謝謝委員我想這個部分能不能做這樣的視為的電動車還是要主管計畫不管是交通部或者是經濟部 環境部他們可以去來認定這樣的一個範疇那接下來就可以適用法規的認定那可行性要由誰來研議交通部因為上次對於機能也是交通部來做認定的事情那好 那我請交通部來這個研議好不好研議它的可行性評估它的可行性我們要跟經濟部 環境部跟財產部一起研議這件事情好不好 一個月內提供給本席"},{"start":9227.83,"end":9252.909,"text":"OK 好部長我想我們先提到一直有關於說這一次電動車的免徵牌照稅但畢竟它是屬於地方稅所以大家一直關心如果延長這樣的政策地方的稅收是嚴重的減少我看到新北市財政局他們未來五年如果法令通過之後會減少38億"},{"start":9255.211,"end":9272.797,"text":"我想各縣市政府的稅務局一樣也是面臨這樣的問題所以到底說財政部對於說各縣市政府未來5年會減少的稅損有沒有去做過一個去跟各地方稅務局來去做一個討論有沒有 目前為止"},{"start":9273.85,"end":9298.106,"text":"都有做過討論那我想包含這次的法案的修正也都有徵詢過地方政府的意見那基本上他們對延長五年這個基本上是支持的那至於對於稅收這個部分減少因為最主要是我們這個法律是授權地方政府得那我想地方政府也會就他自己的財政能力來做一些考量那目前來說當然執行上他們都是免徵使用牌照稅"},{"start":9299.086,"end":9319.026,"text":"就是为了达到政府的政策目标对他们的城市的空气达到这个政策应该是会去免征对 目前执行上他们也都是免征的对于城市的空气也是有帮助的他们每一个县市政府大概税损多少有没有做过统计"},{"start":9319.766,"end":9347.446,"text":"各有不同各有不同这个可以把统计表尽数去整理出来好我们把整理出来后提供给委员其实我刚才林德福委员跟我们今天有一个提案那我们是对于说这个所造成的这些税损我们希望我们中央政府的主管相关主管机关要编列相关预算来补足所以我们在这一次的修正条文的第三项"},{"start":9348.146,"end":9371.184,"text":"我們增訂了前向至中華民國115年1月1日起因免徵使用牌照稅造成直轄市及縣市政府減少之稅收因由中央能源主管機關補足之我們在說明理由裡面我們提到就是中央補足稅收裁員建議可由相關基金"},{"start":9372.024,"end":9398.637,"text":"比如说能源研究发展基金经济部的还有温室气体管理基金我们环境部或者编列相关的公务预算来支应请问我们部长或者经济部还有环境部你们的看法如何这个修法你们赞同吗委员所提的几项基金大概都是属于相关部会所设置的基金请请经济部你赞同吗"},{"start":9399.591,"end":9414.549,"text":"這樣的修法 你的態度表達你的態度因為那個能源基金的話是能源署主管的我是產發署署長我是不是帶回去請能源署署長他們慎重考慮好 也盡速提供給本席集委員會橫進步呢"},{"start":9418.343,"end":9443.785,"text":"從你們的溫室氣體管理基金來做一個相關的一個補足委員好因為這個部分其實牽涉的還滿廣的那我們環境部的這個溫室氣體管理基金其實也才剛開始收那是不是容我們也帶回去然後再補一份說明給委員好 我想相關的修法建議我們希望你們盡量盡速的能夠做出相關的一個對應"},{"start":9445.353,"end":9449.695,"text":"另外對於說我們 那個幾位請部長留下來部長 我想剛才大家一直關心使用牌照稅第七條第一項第八款明定因身心障礙情況之無法駕駛之無駕照者及本人配偶或同一戶籍的二親等於內的親屬所有公該身心障礙者使用的車輛每一身心障礙者以一輛為限"},{"start":9474.867,"end":9491.098,"text":"我想这一条的立法理由很清楚的就是希望这该车辆就是要提供身心障碍者使用一定要提供身心障碍者使用可以作为一个非常重要的一个要不要给他的一个依据"},{"start":9492.099,"end":9515.235,"text":"但是部長我們今天看如果說配偶身分的人即便他不是同一戶籍他跟他的配偶分居的話那麼根據現行的法令這輛車是可以免徵使用牌照稅對不對配偶的話就不限於要同一戶籍但是二親等以內的親屬就限於要同一戶籍"},{"start":9517.276,"end":9533.947,"text":"這個規定我想剛才幾位委員也很關心甚至認為說要擴大它輕等的一個範圍其實為什麼大家會有這樣的一個想法就是因為現在少子化的問題就我們根據去年8月統計的戶籍資料顯示我國每戶平均人口數為2.51人"},{"start":9536.141,"end":9557.479,"text":"不要说三代同堂现在连两代同堂都可能非常的少越来越难所以在这种情况之下你身心障碍本人要与他二亲等的亲属要同一户籍这是越来越少所以这种情况之下原来法律的修法的美意就完全丧失了"},{"start":9558.464,"end":9580.739,"text":"也就是說我們看如果說是子女的話子女她要照顧她的父母嘛那子女在外面要買房子啊她在外面要居住啊但是她為了照顧父母買了一輛車給她的父母親來代步結果因為她跟父母不同意戶籍就沒有辦法享受使用牌照稅的一個免稅的一個優惠是不合理嘛"},{"start":9581.599,"end":9596.712,"text":"所以本席有一個提案刪除說這個同意戶籍的規定你二金等以內的只要你確實這輛車是提供給這個身障的父母來使用或親屬來使用就應該給他免稅部長你贊不贊成"},{"start":9598.463,"end":9625.844,"text":"我想委員您提的就是有跟现在的社会的一个家庭结构是有关系但是在税务的一个课征上也要考虑到它一个执行的一个难易度那这个地方因为实际上是有地方税务机关在课征那委员这样的一个提议我们可能还要再征询地方政府它未来在执行上有没有相关的困难部长我想要与时俱进一面立法的美意完全没有达到它的一个效果"},{"start":9626.424,"end":9633.611,"text":"我们再跟地方政府再来申请他们的意见谢谢林思明 赵伟谢谢所有与会官员我们先休息十分钟"},{"start":10299.346,"end":10301.409,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 請大家就座接下來請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":10323.928,"end":10348.922,"text":"謝謝主席 我請關稅署彭署長好 請關務署彭署長委員好博署長 你先前的很多表現都很不錯那麼在關務的這個部分 把關的部分你們確實做到可以說滴水不漏"},{"start":10349.824,"end":10353.874,"text":"不過還是有相當大的破口而這個破口"},{"start":10355.103,"end":10381.58,"text":"竟然是毒品那這一點讓我覺得這個是非常可怕的事情現在的毒品已經不是早年的海洛因啦這些過去常被吸食的現在很多都是新時代新類型比方說現在最厲害的這一種叫伊托蜜子這無色無味那麼它"},{"start":10383.223,"end":10402.434,"text":"不但已經網路化的銷售而且它已經滲透到我們年輕這一輩那根據教育部他們所委託國建署他們共同的查估裡面他們查估的結果"},{"start":10403.214,"end":10414.645,"text":"在高中職生大概我們全國55萬高中職生裡面竟然有高達6.5%是有在"},{"start":10422.165,"end":10440.871,"text":"使用電子煙而電子煙就是會用到這個所謂的喪屍煙彈依託米子那國中生數字大概一半那大概一半的話大概也有一萬七千位學生也就是"},{"start":10444.8,"end":10454.426,"text":"這種喪屍煙彈已經大量年輕化滲透到我們年輕這一輩加起來國中生高中生大概有五萬兩千位很可能涉入這個"},{"start":10457.263,"end":10471.663,"text":"上司煙彈的稀釋那上司煙彈在查緝方面我們關務署我認為責無旁貸那關務署你們在前幾年民國110年你們"},{"start":10474.249,"end":10492.752,"text":"建置了這個人工智慧輔助氣絲系統你們花了一億多元建置這個系統可是這個系統啊竟然我把它調這個數字出來以後你們比方說你們當年判讀了"},{"start":10494.253,"end":10496.116,"text":"4256萬件當年判讀4256萬件行李竟然顯示出說裡面這個行李裡面有可疑毒品竟然顯示高達522萬件"},{"start":10513.021,"end":10533.351,"text":"竟然高達522萬件好啦 那522萬件被你們顯示警鈴大響大家神經緊繃 大家趕快過來針對這查獲的這個疑似有毒品的行李結果522萬件毒品裡面"},{"start":10536.773,"end":10557.757,"text":"竟然只有124件有124件是真的有毒品天啊這一個AI系統花費上億元建制的AI系統它竟然判毒的錯誤率高達99.989%"},{"start":10568.203,"end":10592.198,"text":"有這麼烏龍的系統嗎所以我認為這個系統你們看要想辦法怎麼去改善因為現在還在用所以你的看法我認為對於毒品的查緝我們引進AI系統當然很好可是你引進的是什麼樣的AI"},{"start":10595.859,"end":10622.446,"text":"會不會這個系統處理建制的這些官員有什麼官商勾結嗎官商勾結A百姓I不是這樣嗎要不然怎麼有這麼荒唐的事情你看法有什麼方式來改善對於這個毒品的判讀"},{"start":10623.661,"end":10635.954,"text":"是 如同委員說的我們目前AI輔助判讀的毒品這個系統真的是目前的誤判率會比較高高很多 沒有錯那我們是跟公研院合作跟公研院是是跟公研院合作的"},{"start":10643.727,"end":10666.787,"text":"那這個我更訝異那他們現在有提出什麼改善的方式嗎跟委員報告我們現在查毒的方式我們不是真這AI它不是說針對毒品的種類就直接就判定說它是毒品我們目前第一階段是用藏匿的方式就是我們會把過去藏毒品的方式來讓AI來去學習"},{"start":10668.809,"end":10681.978,"text":"所以目前的錯誤率會比較高是沒有錯那我們已經都在改善當中了在改善當中我們過去有那個氣毒犬我們過去用X光的方式那個也是"},{"start":10683.28,"end":10701.378,"text":"旅艦大工那這些系統我們也應該訪國外國外他們在X光的系統上面他們在企圖權這一部分他們都屢有斬獲所以我不曉得你們這一部分到底做得怎麼樣傳統的這個方式還有其實有經驗的官務員"},{"start":10707.632,"end":10723.252,"text":"或者警方的人員其實有經驗的光是看行李大概的情況還有尤其出關的時候要提領行李的人那個神色那也是一個很重要的判讀不是嗎"},{"start":10724.002,"end":10751.505,"text":"是委員講的都沒有錯那個企圖犬我們也有44組的企圖犬就是一隻狗配一個人我們有44組那成效也不錯那X光的判讀方面我們是用高風險去篩選可疑的貨物那有密報跟沒有密報的我們海關查獲自行查獲的比例就是沒有密報自行查獲的比例都高達9成以上我們一年大概都會查獲到500件的一個毒品"},{"start":10753.253,"end":10775.612,"text":"喪屍病毒也是我們查緝的重點我剛剛講的你這一個AI系統你竟然總判讀量4256萬件竟然他有高達520萬件是出現說這個判讀這個是有毒品然後就警示燈大亮警鈴大作大家緊張"},{"start":10778.01,"end":10794.484,"text":"真的有520萬件的話那真的是要大緊張了這問題是當他判讀錯誤錯誤率這麼高的時候是對我們關務署對所有我們政府官員的造成困擾"},{"start":10795.485,"end":10819.287,"text":"還有微信掃地啊然後對於被檢查行李的我們出入關的國人那也是多難堪的一件事不是這樣嗎好啦那你說這個要加強要改善我相信公園院他有那個能力啦你們要加緊連絡但是你們每年又編六到七千萬這你們說還要再增加辨識"},{"start":10821.974,"end":10847.647,"text":"的這些禁品比方說肉類製品 電子菸 加熱菸或者是說塵困的紙操或者你要辨識特定農產品你們大概加了五項說要去增加辨識這幾項你光一項毒品你就誤判率這麼高了那你何來的信心"},{"start":10848.993,"end":10877.455,"text":"加這些錢增加附帶的這些設施那麼到底情況會是怎麼樣你這個布置的這個成效到現在也沒有看你提出任何的報告做好了沒 你說要增加這五項對鈔票 對電子菸對這個特定農產品還有對肉製品那這個部分你們用了沒這一套系統"},{"start":10878.435,"end":10884.14,"text":"報告委員這也是在我們次世代人工輔助判讀系統裡面會去做這是一個計畫我們之所以會把這些物品列為這是AI輔助判讀的一個項目最主要是海關查緝的項目重點項目實在非常多人力非常有限所以我們是盡量說以後要朝智慧科技的查緝的方式去努力所以才會把這些重點項目對"},{"start":10908.818,"end":10936.57,"text":"但是你們改善這個AI判讀這個速度太慢了我剛剛講的這個這幾年來你們我看到也沒什麼誤判率也沒什麼改善啊然後現在又看到你新編的預算每年這兩年你們每年都要花七千多萬六千多萬那去增設這個AI的輔助系統那又要增加判讀這五大項"},{"start":10938.254,"end":10945.064,"text":"所以我認為你們確實要加緊不但要加緊建制"},{"start":10947.585,"end":10967.986,"text":"而且要跟工研院專業的技術請他們要更用心在這一塊他不要說這個金額不大 一億多現在要增加的複設的這幾項也才7000多萬對工研院而言他們認為這個小case就對了"},{"start":10970.288,"end":10977.112,"text":"所以那樣子的心態下才會有誤判率這麼高誤判率高達99.99989"},{"start":10981.81,"end":11007.124,"text":"這個大概是世界級的大烏龍你回去好好改善啦謝謝委員的指導阿部長也請你要多盯一盯關務署好不好跟委員修正一下中科院那邊我是口誤那個是中山科學研究院我們跟中山科學研究院合作跟中山科學研究院他確實比中研院他"},{"start":11008.973,"end":11024.846,"text":"抱歉抱歉那我以為他確實比龔岩岳差了一些是是好謝謝謝謝王世堅委員OK謝謝接下來請陳玉珍委員發言謝謝謝謝主席請這個這個房屋稅財政部長嗎這房屋稅應該是財政部長"},{"start":11036.525,"end":11048.779,"text":"財政部莊部長 一個房屋稅的房屋稅 還有一個交通部的交通部 也有一位專委有來嗎 趙專委等一下還有一題是那個也是財化法的財化法國庫署署長我們先講房屋稅"},{"start":11058.599,"end":11076.915,"text":"部長好 這個房屋稅2.0改革的重點是說要加重持有多戶而且沒有做有效利用者的房屋稅負擔合理化房屋的稅負然後你看一下你們現在執行的手段是這樣子"},{"start":11077.896,"end":11104.047,"text":"自住商戶以下的這幾種人自住商戶 公益出租人 社會住宅包租代管這些維持1.2%其中這個自住商戶裡頭是房屋屋出租或供營業使用所有權或使用權人本人配偶或其直系親屬實際居住使用且於該屋半郡戶籍登記要有戶籍登記在裡頭然後第三點本人配偶及未成年子女全國合計商戶以內我們討論自住這個部分"},{"start":11107.448,"end":11131.618,"text":"你們執行這個手段有遇到一些錯殺的一些事實上因為房屋稅錯殺了一些人我們來看一下你們看這下面怎麼改進產生的後果都是自住的沒有辦法享受自住的稅率比如說金門鄉親夫妻兩個人變成要一個戶口在金門一個戶口在台灣因為我們金門戶口在金門跟在台灣的戶籍意義大不相同"},{"start":11133.239,"end":11151.99,"text":"不是表示他們都住金門或住台灣因為在離島來講很多人是常常金門 台灣這樣飛來飛去的很正常在金門 然後有時候到台灣來不管就醫 小孩子就學各方面這個是很普遍的現象不是像台北 住在台北就在台北工作 就學什麼都在台北就醫都在台北所以金門這樣飛來飛去是很"},{"start":11153.351,"end":11180.319,"text":"普遍的 你說他完全住在金門也不完全完全住在台灣也不完全好 那這樣子其中一個就要喪失這個離島這個就金門的這個住因為如果你的戶口沒有在金門你連坐飛機票都要貴很多這個可能你們不知道不是指金門九行那些福利 而是說機票啊 包括就醫的這個很多費用都要增加很多那不得要到台灣來的話他這個損失也很大 這個第一點第二點又有一種特別的情形是這個戶口在"},{"start":11183.13,"end":11202.146,"text":"第二個特別情形是像比如說我們有台灣的鄉親比如說台北的比如說台北長大的原來台灣籍的台北籍的好了鄉親他到金門去工作比如去當公務人員他考上公務人員他到金門去工作那他的這個房子全家他們就一戶置戶的比如說在台北有一個房子"},{"start":11203.687,"end":11230.042,"text":"他去金門工作他在金門可能是租房子但因為為了在當地工作我剛講那些比如說坐飛機他要回家 回台北的家坐飛機什麼都會影響很大所以他的戶口必須放在金門因為他在金門當任公務人員原來台灣的在金門工作的公務人員反映的因為他這樣的工作他必須遷到金門也就喪失了這些自用住宅的稅率"},{"start":11232.199,"end":11250.686,"text":"您了解我的意思嗎這個是實際發生的情形不只是原籍金門的金門人原籍台灣的台灣人現在變成金門籍的新金門人也遇到這樣的情形那這事實上不符合你們原來這個房屋稅這個稅率的就是說他們全家都住在台灣沒錯您了解我的意思嗎"},{"start":11252.086,"end":11279.735,"text":"這個情形沒關係因為今天題目很多這個特殊這種情形包括這個三戶以內要求夫妻一個人必須要上市離島戶籍或者全國他這個人全國明明他只有一戶只有一戶卻沒有辦法享用自用住宅稅率問題這個要提出請你們幫我們提出修法建議這個我要今天提的問題在這裡我們當然也有我們的想法我想我們先尊重主管機關針對我們提出的這些問題你們做出相關的研究給我一個"},{"start":11280.695,"end":11300.852,"text":"報告看要不要提出修法或者是如果你不願意我們會來主動提出修法我們再把您剛剛所提的幾項問題我們做一個詳細的報告給我對 才不會說因為這樣誤殺到一些真的是有實際工作需求的人因為離島比較特別你住你如果在台北你住在台中你去台中工作事實上你回台北也沒什麼影響"},{"start":11301.693,"end":11321.859,"text":"但是因為離島就有飛機票的這個一些差額價錢就是不一樣這個差很多一趟飛機是差好幾千塊回家省錢什麼也都沒辦法可能家人在台灣然後他在金門工作這是原籍台灣的人所以這個部分請人去研究一下好嗎好 第二部分我想請教這個交通部"},{"start":11323.739,"end":11337.825,"text":"我國進口車輛的檢驗項目和流程這個問題也請你們要幫我帶回去研究你看有三個電動車檢驗部有環境部、人員署跟交通部檢驗完以後就到監理站去領牌"},{"start":11339.345,"end":11358.261,"text":"金門也是金門有進口一些少量的自用電動車但是因為都是自用 很少量以前的做法是以前交通部的做法是102年那時候的做法是派人就整批人到因為累積很多每個人都進了車以後一台一台一台可能不知道多少台以後就到金門去做相關的檢驗"},{"start":11359.582,"end":11389.042,"text":"但是這個畢竟不是長久之計我覺得這個很不方便後來他交通部說不然你們以後車子就運來台灣檢驗再運回去金門領排那一來一回這個光運費就多少錢那時間呢就買一台車子要運過去再運過來這個事實上造成很大的困擾所以現在國內檢驗機構現在是不是只有一家交通部有認可很多家國內外檢測機構有52家環保署的部分排氣的污染有5家噪音的部分有6家能源局耗能的部分有3家這個市場是自由的對吧"},{"start":11389.982,"end":11402.652,"text":"這只有開放市場我想請你們去交通部還有經濟部有沒有來經濟部 邱卓會有來的經濟部還有交通部邱卓會署長您上來一下因為這也牽涉到經濟部"},{"start":11405.294,"end":11425.56,"text":"裡面有一個檢測是經濟部的然後交通部的環保部環境部今天沒有沒有環境部也有來但是是不同的各位沒關係你們都上來一下這個題目你們也了解一下就是說如何不讓離島居民造成困擾買了車子又要再運過來運過去去檢驗才能掛牌您了解嗎剛剛我提了這幾位經濟部跟那個"},{"start":11426.76,"end":11450.648,"text":"環境部都有聽到嘛那這個部分請你們是不是去研究一下可不可以輔導金門成立具檢驗資格的民間業者因為這市場本來就是開放的嘛那其中有各種檢驗的機構來輔導我們金門來成立在這個過程裡頭成立以後金門人就不用這樣奔波啦也是做一個比較便民的手續這樣回去你們是不是可以回去把這個問題拿回去研究一下有沒有 可以嗎"},{"start":11453.661,"end":11481.171,"text":"我們待會去研究請問要多久交通部一個部一個部回答因為進口車檢驗有三個部會四個檢測交通部的部分的話我們盤點一下目前的狀況之後再跟委員報告大概多久 沒關係我給你時間兩個月給委員面書面報告兩個月現在是11月2號OK 那個經濟部這個環境有時間我們也是比照兩個月兩個月 那環境部呢"},{"start":11482.622,"end":11507.971,"text":"財政部也請比較兩個月我既然給你們這麼充裕的時間麻煩你們叫做出可行的方案不是給我研究完再研究我要檔案可行的方案你不能研究完兩個月後告訴我你再研究好 謝謝好 謝謝然後接著財政部的這個這個離島建設不是對不起那個財化法剩下其他部會可以了 國庫署的嘛所以那個我剛聽說這個你們在12月底前會提出相對應的這個院版的 對嗎"},{"start":11511.272,"end":11528.943,"text":"是的 我們會在年底前會把願板提送出來好 那我跟你們提醒一下在這個我們之前也提過不是我提事實上不管是民進黨執政或是國民黨執政針對這個財化委員會第8條裡頭金馬地區的這個菸酒稅的部分80%的部分留給金馬地區使用的這個部分這個"},{"start":11531.184,"end":11550.461,"text":"不只是本席有提出來了我們的招委林士明招委也有提了再加上過去五年行政院的版本送進來的時候這五個這一條都是有列在裡頭從民國九十一年到現在歷年二十幾年要修才化法的時候不管是國民黨當執政黨或是民進黨當執政黨這一條就是"},{"start":11553.564,"end":11574.367,"text":"第8條第4項裡頭的這個有關金馬地區的這個酒的這個部分是菸酒也是菸酒這個稅的部分因為從金馬地區斟菸酒那留給金馬地區這個使用這個也鼓勵地方要自己創造自己的財源這個部分都有提出來我希望是這個這個是不是在本次的這個行政院板頭把我們列入考慮"},{"start":11575.782,"end":11587.453,"text":"跟委員報告我知道委員這邊本來就有對這個有提案只是很可惜上次在國民黨團那個版本裡面並沒有把委員是這一次沒有對但是你們要提願版嗎那提願版的時候當然委員這個建議還有我們都會一併納入考量對因為"},{"start":11591.457,"end":11620.448,"text":"以前你們就提過了我是提醒你們不要再遺漏那這個東西事實上是很公平的因為這是當初加入WTO原來金馬地區是菸酒專賣制度產生的財務衝擊所以那時候才會提出這一點這已經是民國我想這個國會署署長很了解嘛這是你管的這個稅嘛民國九十一年就已經有提出這個制度了吧只是說因為財化延宕這麼多年一直沒有修嘛那既然這次這個財政部已經要提出願辦了請問把這一條也一併按照以往不管是哪一個黨執政都提出來條例不要忘掉這一條可以嗎"},{"start":11621.91,"end":11628.075,"text":"會納入裡面來做考量OK好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝陳一貞委員接下來請羅廷維委員質詢我宣布一下就是我們待會12點我們現場直接開飯用餐12點就開飯用餐"},{"start":11651.65,"end":11653.759,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長請莊部長"},{"start":11661.383,"end":11683.346,"text":"委員好部長好台灣現在發生非洲豬瘟外界關注兩個問題一個問題就是處於第二個問題就是邊境的管制我想要請問部長目前針對高風險的國家包括中國 越南 泰國入境的旅客 快遞的郵包以及查緝發現豬肉的比例為何"},{"start":11685.298,"end":11705.186,"text":"对于这个邮包也好快递货物也好我们都是高风险进来的旅客行李都是X光的百分之百的检测那请问货柜呢货柜怎么查百分之百吗货柜的部分也是按照风险来做锁定然后有不同的查验比例所以它是有比例的吗"},{"start":11706.066,"end":11729.158,"text":"而且高風險的比例就相對更高但是我要講的是說他沒有100%我們當然知道快遞的郵包你現在是100%入境的旅客100%但是貨櫃就是沒有100%我們看這樣子的一個新聞您看一下坦向尼亞的一個雜貨輪走私肉品來台他就是貨櫃來的"},{"start":11730.279,"end":11737.488,"text":"如果沒有做到100%的查驗我們要如何確保肉類不會走失進來"},{"start":11739.768,"end":11760.047,"text":"对于这个猪肉的防线我们第一个边境的防线第二个是后市场的防线第三个就是猪瘟厨余的一个防线这个三道防线都应该要做得很好我想每一个防线都应该各司其职的把它都做好没有问题厨余要不要关注要但是我现在就问"},{"start":11761.661,"end":11770.178,"text":"貨櫃沒有100%我們怎麼處理當然你有跟我講現在高風險的國家來的貨櫃的一個查驗比例增加對吧"},{"start":11771.158,"end":11788.986,"text":"我們一直都是在這樣做但是可不可以高風險的國家查驗的來到100%我想第一個你人力上當然我們高風險的我們查驗的比例一定會提很高的我想部長沒有所謂的人員的問題因為現在"},{"start":11791.267,"end":11816.983,"text":"是關乎整個豬肉的產業鏈2000多億我想我們應該要提高現在我點出了問題貨櫃沒有100%貨櫃沒有100%貨櫃沒有100%這個部分就是我們現在要關注的一個議題近5年來查獲未經檢驗豬肉製品的一個數量來源國家以及財閥落實的情形部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":11818.902,"end":11846.139,"text":"跟委员报告我们关务署的同仁在这方面一直是用最高标准一个最严谨的态度来做处理的我想我相信所有的同仁一定是非常在这个岗位上一定是非常认真的去执行他们的业务但是我们这些坐在办公室的长官还有行政院能不能给予更多的人力更多的资源这是行政院的责任所以作为部长你们有没有反应"},{"start":11847.12,"end":11874.68,"text":"现在货柜没有100%需要怎么样的一个人力物力来支持整个所有同仁在执勤上能够给予更多的一个资源坦尚尼亚的一个杂货轮绝对是冰山一角所以部长请你看这一份报告我们这一份报告是10月29日未还委员会农业部里面的报告关于防范非洲猪瘟的疫情扩散专案报告中农业部的书面报告提到"},{"start":11875.521,"end":11903.76,"text":"跨部會的協同合作本部房檢署與財政部官務署還有海洋委員會以及海巡署溝通機制協同合作嚴禁入境旅客貨物歸物還有我們的國際快遞郵包以及岸際漁船聯合防堵相關的走私問題我想部長跨部會的一個協同合作怎麼樣的合作方式近5年來的合作"},{"start":11904.56,"end":11909.327,"text":"到底有幾次 可以說明一下嗎我們合作是一直持續在進行的"},{"start":11909.892,"end":11934.353,"text":"对有怎么样的合作方式合作有几次我们各有不同的一个执掌我们在执掌面上我们是一直都在合作的对包含勤职交换各方面都一直在联系整个政府都会是一直都在合作我们都相信但是我想了解一下效率可不可以说明一下这5年来查细过几件比例为何在跨部会的合作下"},{"start":11935.68,"end":11951.944,"text":"这个数据我可以在会后再提供给委员是所以到底有没有跨部会协作当然是有跨部会的协作那到底合作过几次还是每天都在合作就叫做合作持续的持续都当然是要持续的合作不是说只有偶尔合作"},{"start":11952.384,"end":11968.494,"text":"我們希望的是不要只有豬瘟爆發以後現在用這樣子的一個書面報告農業部有沒有說謊農業部有沒有真的落實跨部會的協助以及財政部有沒有支持這個我會後希望你能夠提供數據給我知道可以嗎"},{"start":11968.814,"end":11996.52,"text":"我們把相關數據收集以後另外我想問一下在這個所得稅法裡面有特別幾項特別的扣除額儲蓄投資的扣除額教育學費的扣除額以及幼兒學前特別的扣除額長期照顧的扣除額皆是透過稅制的一個設計來滿足地方政府的目標社會公益那目前社會有在倡議的綠色扣除額部長您的態度如何"},{"start":11998.596,"end":12016.048,"text":"有關所謂的綠色的稅制在氣候變形溫管法裡面第一個是以碳價先行綠色的稅制我們會等碳價進行一段時間以後再整體的再來做目前貨物稅也具有這樣的一個功能"},{"start":12017.009,"end":12043.581,"text":"在綠色的稅制部長我今天提出來希望你重視綠色的扣除額這個問題當然你有先講了先從探製開始處理後續再來研議但是我希望目前整個民間在倡議的部分你要聽到這些心聲那今天昭偉站起來昭偉您非常的英明剛剛說發便當了再給我一分鐘拜託最後一分鐘那不用擔心他們大家都在休息部長風景神經聽就好就一分鐘30秒30秒OK來好"},{"start":12045.962,"end":12063.567,"text":"最後30秒最後美國最高法院就川普援引的IEPA現在所法案所課徵的關稅是否違憲來做討論如果最高法院最後也支持這樣的裁決我要講的是如果最後川普違憲了"},{"start":12064.887,"end":12090.679,"text":"財政部有沒有幫廠商預先規劃好幫我國的廠商業者統合之後統一由財政部聯合其他的部會向美國交涉處理而不是讓這個廠商各個單打獨鬥來向美國政府來討要他們之前所權益受損的甚至繳出去的關稅我希望財政部應該要趕快預先準備"},{"start":12092.321,"end":12101.291,"text":"讓這些廠商沒有後顧之憂大廠商好談判中小廠商根本美國官員不會理他部長最後可不可以回應一下"},{"start":12102.588,"end":12108.033,"text":"有關台美之間的關稅這個部分的協議跟討論是由那個經貿辦公室在主責那也是由我們的正副院長在領軍在持續的進行討論跟溝通當中我希望你把我今天的意思能夠帶到幫所有的中小業者來發聲統一由企業拜託政府來處理當然委員的意見我們會轉達好 謝謝羅天惟委員"},{"start":12131.417,"end":12133.658,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝曹偉邁有請部長請莊部長委員好部長好2023年夏天在凱道上面有一個非常重要的公民活動那場活動發起的人我是其中之一"},{"start":12160.879,"end":12184.186,"text":"2023年夏天頂著酷暑那個時候在凱道上面的年輕人提出了兩個重要的訴求一個是司法正義司法正義當然過去這幾年成為笑話第二個是居住正義居住正義當年我們大力的在倡導囤房稅跟空屋稅政府說他聽到了然後推出了所謂的囤房稅2.0"},{"start":12186.468,"end":12197.445,"text":"這個囤房稅2.0當初我看了這個版本的以後我就曾經預言過這個囤房稅2.0你們所推出來財政部的版本是沒有辦法達成成效的"},{"start":12198.854,"end":12219.103,"text":"沒有辦法達成成效這個是我當年的預言這個公開的資料通通都有這不是在唱衰政府這個是提出事情不過那個時候行政院還是堅持要通過行政院的版本行政院的版本那個時候民進黨的委員占多數也順利的三讀通過了"},{"start":12220.243,"end":12237.255,"text":"三讀通過了在民主國家裡面我們在國會當然是福音多數的決定但多數的決定也要接受事後的檢視囤房稅2.0部長你覺得有達成釋出空屋減少囤房的政策目標嗎"},{"start":12238.959,"end":12264.211,"text":"跟委員報告這一次房屋稅2.0這個部分我們有幾個基礎我想還是要跟委員再報告第一個原來是縣市歸戶不好意思我們是全國歸戶我那個因為質詢的時間有限我不需要你再告訴我你們規範了什麼內容你們規範的內容我都很清楚我現在問的是成效的問題屯房稅2.0你們說那個時候有報告空屋稅在裡面我現在的問題很簡單對於釋出空屋"},{"start":12267.598,"end":12276.992,"text":"釋出空屋沒有人住的房子房子是拿來住的房子不是拿來炒的也不是拿來囤的對釋出空屋這樣的政策目標有達成嗎"},{"start":12278.793,"end":12295.647,"text":"因為今年是第一年實施到五月底為止目前的相關的數據我們一直在統計當中統計以後的結果我們要去做回饋看看統計以後的結果目前還在統計中目前還在統計來我先秀給你看來你說你還要在統計當中你們回去慢慢統計空污率9.79過去六年最高"},{"start":12307.217,"end":12330.436,"text":"囤房稅2.03讀後空污率持續上升我完全都是按照官方的資料我完全都是按照官方的資料這個是NGO團體合作大家做出來的結果NGO做得出來我們的財政部現在為了閃躲問題回去還要統計喔還是他做的數字不對"},{"start":12333.567,"end":12360.452,"text":"這個部分我們目前正在統計當中我們按照個別的狀況來做分別的統計一樣在講空話嘛所以我具體的請教你嘛你看上面啊全部都是官方公佈的數字啊全部都是官方公佈的數字我現在告訴你啊你回你迴避問題閃躲問題說你要回去研究NG又把數字都亮出來啦囤房村2.03度通過以後空污的數量"},{"start":12361.687,"end":12364.788,"text":"與空污率持續的上升啊這個數字不對嗎有達成政策效果嗎第二個沒關係啊你們回去統計要多久一個禮拜夠不夠還是要再統計一年一個禮拜夠不夠一個禮拜之內把財政部的數字啊把財政部的數字交出來可不可以可以好第二個新青安"},{"start":12393.224,"end":12410.432,"text":"兩任行政院長大力宣傳的新青安財政部覺得成效如何青安確實幫助了沒有房屋的青年朋友們購得的房屋這個部分確實有它的成效是幫助他們還是讓他們陷入更深的深淵"},{"start":12411.822,"end":12440.865,"text":"我想這個部分新青安上路以後房價指數漲多少你知不知道房價上漲有諸多的因素我現在只問你新青安上路以後房價指數漲多少你知不知道就我所知大概有10%左右12.3%我們在許諾年輕人居住正義的時候要讓他買得到買得起要讓他租得到租得起"},{"start":12441.71,"end":12470.053,"text":"所以過去大家在關注的是什麼大家在關注的就是空屋有沒有釋出來嘛是不是繼續有囤房的現象嘛房價是不是繼續攀高嘛房價所得比是不是繼續惡化嘛這個才是讓人民特別是我們的年輕世代最深刻的感受這是他們最深刻的感受不是在踢你部長上來照本宣科啊"},{"start":12473.547,"end":12495.554,"text":"房價指數上漲12.3%部長你覺得有實現居住正義的理念嗎有嗎委員報告居住正義它採取的手段有多種新清安是其中所以我才問你從新清安你認為是真的在幫助他們還是推他們進入更痛苦的深淵"},{"start":12497.728,"end":12526.081,"text":"我請教你這個問題嘛購屋者他就從財務上來去做考量那銀行在貸款的時候做貸錢的審核以及貸後的管理都需要做的那包含他的所得支出的那銀行的貸後管理跟房價的上漲有什麼關係貸後的管理就是他要做自助使用而且他必須要所以你的意思是說現在因為銀行貸後管理不好所以有很多新清安被拿來炒房"},{"start":12527.686,"end":12543.861,"text":"貸後管理他是讓他一定要做自住使用而且不能夠出租也不能夠做人頭那你覺得有達到這個目標嗎目前來說銀行都在做這方面的清理所以我問你你覺得有達到這個目標嗎您的目標是指"},{"start":12544.656,"end":12572.936,"text":"不是啊 你剛說代後管理很重要要拿來自助嘛那我就問你嘛 現實上有落實嗎因為你一直在迴避一個最根本的問題啊我們的政府推出了各式各樣的政策有囤房稅2.0結果呢 結果空屋率持續上升空屋數持續上升我當年2023年就講了你們推的沒有用"},{"start":12574.366,"end":12602.48,"text":"那當然要檢驗客觀看出來的數字就是這樣星期二2.0要協助購屋者很多年輕人現在在問的事情是什麼是真的在協助他們還是更多的錢到了不動產市場房價越炒越高他們的主觀感受我當然要用客觀數字來呈現呈現出來的結果就是這個樣子他們的主觀感受沒有錯"},{"start":12606.089,"end":12622.016,"text":"他們要看的不是財政部一樣照本宣科講的那個內容大家要看的是實際的效果到底有沒有效果讓我們變得比較好還是讓我們變得比較不好政府推薦車的目的不就在這裡嗎是要聽你們站在那邊照本宣科嗎"},{"start":12640.011,"end":12665.957,"text":"你們到目前為止針對新興安上路到現在因為卓榮泰自己對社會講要用其他的方式來處理我聽了以後我就覺得很有意思如果本來做得很好幹嘛用其他的方式你就繼續這樣幹就好啦連卓榮泰自己都知道有問題了這才要修正才用其他的方式來處理"},{"start":12667.998,"end":12682.96,"text":"院會質詢的時候也有委員問他你新清安要繼續搞嗎他看起來是沒有要繼續搞啦因為他知道問題嚴重啦他說要用其他的方式啊財政部會建議行政院繼續搞新清安嗎 會嗎"},{"start":12685.087,"end":12698.294,"text":"跟委員報告新親愛目前指引狀況是要到115年7月31號當然在時間戒指之前我們會重新再檢討不用等到時間戒指之前現在效應都出來了現在效應都出來了有多少年輕人因此墜入了更深更重的負擔政府的承諾根本是在畫大餅這就是你們制度的成效"},{"start":12717.749,"end":12746.938,"text":"財政部如果覺得我說的不對那沒有關係拿出具體的數字來反駁我拿出具體的數字來告訴全國的年輕人我們的政策方向正確我們做得非常的棒我財政部部長一定會告訴卓榮泰這件事情一定要繼續幹你會給卓榮泰這樣的建議嗎我想這個部分我們會繼續檢討慢慢研議我已經知道你要說什麼了"},{"start":12750.691,"end":12752.752,"text":"好 我們謝謝黃國昌委員接下來請羅明財委員質詢主席 各位委員 初六席 觀音員 大家好主席可否請財政部莊部長請莊部長以及關務署的彭署長關務署彭署長"},{"start":12776.468,"end":12785.992,"text":"委員好那個新青安開始大概多少年的時間了那加匯多少的年輕人總金額是多少新青安是從112年的8月開始實施的那總共合帶的戶數有13萬6500戶那這個是等於是協助有13萬的朋友們去買了房子是 那這個中間有很多人買兩戶"},{"start":12806.292,"end":12818.649,"text":"不會啊 不能啊只能他必須是他本人配偶跟未成年子女是名下沒有房子的才可以申請新青安所以你說新青安加會了多少人"},{"start":12819.861,"end":12845.251,"text":"多少人 那你說人是指戶還是指一個人戶好了那我覺得你用13萬6518來對 13萬最少 那是戶其實有很多年輕朋友他想要買房現在也不敢買因為買了所有的東西還是攪不起而且房屋的這個價格節節高升"},{"start":12846.38,"end":12865.972,"text":"即便現在我們普發現金多少一萬塊也沒有用相較之下可以說是越差越遠距離越來越大所以明年新清單就到齊了7月新清案的政策還會繼續再延續下去嗎"},{"start":12868.516,"end":12881.354,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告這個部分我們當然會就執行的情況再來做一些檢討看要不要做調整那會不會調整大概什麼時候會對外公佈那當然會在截止之前"},{"start":12882.489,"end":12899.359,"text":"所以是7月底7月30号再公布之前的意思是前一个月前半年我想这个确定的时候就可以说明现在有时候到了分户的时候那事实上银行他就拨款现在这个情况还在出现吗"},{"start":12901.426,"end":12921.818,"text":"這個部分因為對新青安的部分已經做了一些調整也就因為他們是沒有房屋的買房子所以在銀行法的部分儘管會做處理就是去除了72條之2的一個總額的計算然後在排撥就是說在等待撥款的部分也已經舒緩了"},{"start":12922.478,"end":12948.073,"text":"所以72條之二開始解禁了以後那這段時間有多少的戶數又成交了就是分戶的部分有順利貸款貸成的這個部分舒緩了排波因為原來因為有這個天條這個限制所以在都必須要等待排隊那現在整個已經舒緩了在時間上都已經加快現在還沒有在排隊沒有辦法完成的 多不多"},{"start":12949.18,"end":12964.335,"text":"目前看起來都沒有 都不會了對 都會按照原來規定的時程來給予撥款好的一個案子因為有他的這個動機我們希望能真正的照顧到年輕人是的"},{"start":12968.028,"end":12992.977,"text":"至少讓大家買得起 住得起 付得起有未來無論如何要想一個好的方法如果說真的造成年輕人的壓力所以就不敢買房 不敢結婚 不生小孩事實上這是很嚴重的國安問題建議部長 全世界例子蠻多的你可以參考新加坡主屋的例子"},{"start":12994.468,"end":13007.594,"text":"推出一個更好的政策讓年輕人他可以有未來他繼續願意留在台灣認真努力的打拚這才是政府存在的原因"},{"start":13010.187,"end":13022.576,"text":"對委員所提的也就是我們提出各項的政府提出各項的住宅政策裡面的許多的一些做法包含社會住宅社會住宅基本上是用出租的還有它那個現在的制度新興安是協助他們購買 對其實現在就是"},{"start":13026.601,"end":13050.471,"text":"把羈押一些政策全部放在一個籠子裡面羈押根本就不同籠你羈押同籠就打架想的東西政策方面思考的點就會不一致譬如說現在一直打房另外一個角度來看台北市的豪宅它的定義是幾千萬"},{"start":13054.445,"end":13083.05,"text":"豪宅7000是吧的定義就是說幾千萬兩個不一樣央行有央行的定義財政部有財政部的定義所以我們這邊是多少錢那個好像財政部的豪宅的標準是台北市幾千萬我們就是那個舊屋的房屋所得的那個部分台北市是60006000萬事實上你台北市的豪宅6000萬那等於是幾坪叫豪宅"},{"start":13084.452,"end":13112.745,"text":"報告委員我們不是真的定義叫豪宅我們只是定義是用課稅的基礎可是那銀行所以大家都聽不懂那央行的豪宅的定義是多少7千7千萬台北市7千其實你以現在的這個生活水平來看你比較新加坡日本東京或者上海香港等等7千萬怎麼能算是豪宅"},{"start":13115.266,"end":13120.389,"text":"那我就倒著算那你好載等於是一個房子是幾坪這個定義因為有政策上不同在央行裡面它因為信用的管制所以它定一個價格你們思考一下其實是兩個概念你台北市比較淡黃區你要讓它經濟蓬勃發展你貴就讓它貴嘛"},{"start":13144.341,"end":13158.785,"text":"但是年輕人要住的你要離台北市區大概20 30分鐘像日本東京都的概念你讓年輕人在周圍有捷運可以通的地方你要讓他住得起讓他付得起這個"},{"start":13160.987,"end":13180.128,"text":"一個概念你要包括住宅政策以及銀行融資貸款新清安的政策你要包裹在一起想所以你看新加坡 香港他們有很多都市中心的一些周邊的市中心會出現"},{"start":13181.345,"end":13194.691,"text":"你要把這個整個融合在一起另外講到今天的免稅的問題 牌照這影響最大的就是新北市新北市因為這樣稅損多少"},{"start":13197.893,"end":13213.487,"text":"新北市的稅損我們大概再查一下11億多11億多不會 一年沒有那麼多吧有那麼多嗎請新北市跟委員報告過去是11.7億未來5年如果再免徵是38億對 所以你未來這幾年再免徵38億他講的是累計數不是一年累計數"},{"start":13222.423,"end":13251.742,"text":"那就是未来还有38亿部长那你这个部分少的部分你中央要怎么样补回来啊刚刚第一个跟委员报告我想这个在税法里面是地方政府得免征使用牌照税所以地方政府可以依照他自己的财政状况去考量怎么样去执行当然目前实务上地方政府都是给予免征这是一个那第二个呢"},{"start":13252.923,"end":13279.48,"text":"鼓勵使用電動車對於空氣的污染是有好的我想對於地方政府在空氣污染的防治上是也有所幫助剛才也有許多委員提到是不是要有其他中央的一個相關的基金來做一些補貼或補助這是很需要的目前來說相關的部會他們會後會去再做進一步的研議請部長多多考慮因為你少了這一塊38億對我們新北市的400多萬的"},{"start":13282.322,"end":13288.724,"text":"人民來說情何以堪因為我們教育也要錢長照也要錢你少了這38億這麼大的一塊那我們必須要補上去這由來中央多多給予照顧你這樣的話不要說因為推了這個法案造成地方這些弱勢團體或者這些年輕的老人的一些關懷的照顧減少的話"},{"start":13309.511,"end":13328.388,"text":"那你這個可以說是整個政策的推動為得不足啊所以拜託減多少請補多少這是一個觀念那今天那個好不容易我們爭取的普發現金以外現在今天開始上路了嗎"},{"start":13329.67,"end":13356.921,"text":"今天开始预登记了总算努力了一年多从开始中央还说没钱这个政策不可能那我们也是证明了说国家至上民众第一还好你们这个所有的方向转回来开始普发现金一万一人领一万快乐常相伴我希望这是一个开始"},{"start":13357.521,"end":13374.932,"text":"未來每年稅收超征的時刻還是要時時刻刻想到人民照顧人民因為現在大家莫忘世上苦人多希望一萬一萬有機會年年都要來好不好年年都要來現在詐騙很多財政部在宣導方面還是要多多加強"},{"start":13385.717,"end":13398.468,"text":"我知道財政部又在宣導直至目前為止很多人還問說那我會被騙請問部長你要化波入帳以你個人來說還是你要領現金"},{"start":13399.687,"end":13417.335,"text":"以我上一次的話我是用登記錄帳也就是在網站上面就是輸入相關的資料以後他會自動撥款的那是因為你比較熟悉一般民眾覺得詐騙多他還是希望領到熱騰騰的現金比較實在希望說這個錢領到了以後大家隨意想領的就領部長你會鼓勵大家不要領因為不領大家就回歸到國庫"},{"start":13428.147,"end":13443.918,"text":"我想今天來看今天來看一個早上已經預登記的就是有47萬了我想很多民眾都已經開始進去做預登記你看大家等好久了所以這個47萬的話連續加一加上一次大概來領的超過99%沒有領的不到1%這次部長你怎麼預計我們認為應該也可以達到99%以上是"},{"start":13457.01,"end":13461.475,"text":"部长您临了意外要做什么使用我自己会有自己的决定"},{"start":13462.236,"end":13468.14,"text":"什麼樣的決定我是要捐出來因為現在弱勢團體很多單親家庭或者是一些關懷的團體這幾年的收入很少所以我領到一萬我要捐出來部長你領到一萬要做什麼用委員充滿愛心捐款的部分其實我平常也就都在信用卡扣款就在捐這個部分一萬塊我會自己做相關的決定做什麼一萬塊想那麼久"},{"start":13492.696,"end":13516.916,"text":"我问那个行政院长他就说他要捐出来我说你捐我也捐所以你要不要捐出来我会做自己的决定那捐我平常都在捐我不会只等这1万块才捐的你等很久你加自己的小菜为自己补一下好 谢谢促进经济的成长好 谢谢罗明财委员好 部长请回接下来请黄珊珊委员咨询"},{"start":13532.074,"end":13535.296,"text":"謝謝主席 請莊部長好 請莊部長委員好是 部長早我想您剛剛11月21號在仁川去參加了APEC的財政部長會議我想問一下這次我們到底有多少成果有沒有對國內政策有什麼新的啟發或回來之後會做哪些調整"},{"start":13561.278,"end":13580.664,"text":"跟委員報告在APEC裡面基本上各國會就他們國內的情形以及國際的一個趨勢做一些分享那我想這個部分呢對於有關的數位金融的發展以及區域經濟的合作都有非常正面的一些裡面好像最重要的是人工智慧嗎"},{"start":13581.164,"end":13593.515,"text":"人工智慧也是很討論很多大家也知道這個運用上目前來說是一個很重要的一個趨勢現在全世界都在發展人工智慧我們立法院今年四月也三讀通過了產創條例那擴大所謂的資本投資堅定這個項目但目前為止我們調高的金額到二十億左右"},{"start":13599.961,"end":13617.454,"text":"但大家都知道人工智慧大概20億是一個很少的錢人家是數百億數千億美金計所以這個部分在稅務上或我們相關的基礎設施的建設上面財政部跟財稅優惠是不是也要開始做一些檢討"},{"start":13619.077,"end":13646.863,"text":"這個是10億調到20億這個是在今年才修正通過的產創條例裡面那目前有沒有來試用了這個是在設備投資的部分如果其他在研發也好或其他的部分也都有相關的可以做優都有可以做投資抵減的這個我們不要輸給人家我知道委員的意思大家都把它當成未來最重要的事情我們的法令還要等到立法院修那修了之後現在有新的狀況我覺得我們還是要"},{"start":13649.403,"end":13676.329,"text":"隨時甚至為了提升國家競爭力你的稅賦是你的一個很重要的工具是 了解第二個部分就剛剛很多委員在說的我昨天也有在內政部門質詢了卓榮泰院長也就是辛清安院長昨天給我明確的回答是他不會延長那不會延長的原因是因為要用新的方式我想問一下財政部有參與不會延長新的方式的討論嗎"},{"start":13678.351,"end":13701.79,"text":"跟委员报告还是还没开始讨论这个部分其实在执行来说从这个12年的8月到现在我知道大家都有些不同的一些反应但是我们也不可否认他确实有协助到一些青年朋友们去买了他自己要自住的房子有一些好处但是也找到一大堆坏处也找到一些当然也有一些问题我们执行完你的发现的就是有很多人头户嘛"},{"start":13702.25,"end":13723.541,"text":"很多出租戶嘛 抓到了一千多戶了現在還有再繼續抓嗎 要回了多少錢已經要回總共有一億多 上一次我在這邊問的時候還有一個就是年收入300萬以上的人也有"},{"start":13724.947,"end":13733.324,"text":"六千多戶也就是說這些我們接下來不管你是不是繼續試用在你這一次的政策執行上面就應該檢討了"},{"start":13735.18,"end":13758.387,"text":"我們也進一步請我們的因為這個清新安都是公股行庫在承作是 所以是財政部本身就可以檢討到的我們去把它做一些盤整了如果年收入300萬的還要拿我們的政府補貼這的確跟我們居住正義的本意是有相違背的如果可能的話在你們的內部跟公股行庫溝通的過程裡面這個其實不應該讓他感覺有相對剝奪感"},{"start":13761.748,"end":13781.303,"text":"这些人当然他也是符合条件但是拿的是政府的补助这一点有一点太过违德不足好 我们会把这个部分有关这个部分所以不要等到明年七月再检讨这个部分我希望你在年底前至少在高所得的部分我们要有一个说难听点了"},{"start":13782.503,"end":13798.901,"text":"水要給他關起來或者就是不給他要了你就自己去想辦法你一般貸款你也拿得到如果他的所得300萬他一般貸款也沒有問題對不對拿新興按的補貼要幹嘛一年住宅基金要給公共航庫45億"},{"start":13802.296,"end":13814.281,"text":"45億的補貼你們好意思拿嗎好嗎年底之前我覺得針對高所得這個貸款的項目跟我們原來的設定的目標的確是有相違部分我希望你們有個檢討的記錄給我是"},{"start":13816.786,"end":13836.443,"text":"好 接下來我們就是今天的牌照稅了所以部長我們使用牌照稅連年超增耶113年全國收到687.3億比原來預期多了11.4億這是一個什麼樣的狀況就是大家很愛買車所以交了很多牌照稅"},{"start":13838.867,"end":13857.201,"text":"第一個使用牌照稅預算數 還是估得很差譬如說114年我看它的預算數大概681億這個是預估都是在地方政府他們估出來的地方政府估的 因為它是地方稅顯然每一年都在增加另外就是牌照稅它跟燃料費不太一樣燃料費"},{"start":13858.522,"end":13879.902,"text":"大部分是來做公路建設那屬於規費交通部他的監理機關他自己來收但是使用牌照稅是目前法規上是地方稅所以他的地方就是要讓地方政府來收這個牌照稅也是地方的稅收之一是的OK所以他應該是用在地方建設"},{"start":13881.992,"end":13900.271,"text":"因為我們現在監理所我們很多人是車籍資料登記在比如說像我的戶籍在台北市我們就登記在台北市但是車籍資料監理所現在已經可以登錄通訊地址"},{"start":13901.051,"end":13918.032,"text":"但是牌照稅目前為止就剛剛講它其實是要建設地方用的可是我們的牌照稅只能放在戶籍地可是眾所周知有多少人的多少民眾的在台北陪台灣工作但戶籍可能在中南部要回去投票"},{"start":13918.673,"end":13946.538,"text":"那同樣的他的牌照稅可能就交給了地方政府可是他的車子在大台北跑跑走所以我們到底是這個狀況有沒有去了解一下當然這地方重要的稅啦我的意思是說有一些他畢竟是要輔助地方的活動那是不是有可能在做居住城市跟單純的車企登記可能要做一些至少要了解狀況"},{"start":13948.379,"end":13961.873,"text":"部長知道我的意思嗎以監理機關登記的一個地方對 但監理機關現在已經可以給所謂的登錄通訊地址像很多人他其實沒有住在他的戶籍地"},{"start":13963.052,"end":13966.493,"text":"一樣的意思 牌照稅這一次我們台灣民眾黨有兩個提案就是電動車當然繼續第二個部分是長照長照我看到今天時間在你我請衛福部好嗎衛福部有來衛福部說你們財政部反對對於長照車輛免徵牌照稅或減徵那衛福部是相關長照業務的主管機關"},{"start":13990.383,"end":14009.875,"text":"現在很多的民眾他們去叫所謂的富康巴士幾乎非常非常難叫到要像搶演唱會門票一樣要一大早準時上網登記所以富康巴士的量能其實有一大半"},{"start":14010.555,"end":14024.504,"text":"有领取我们长照的民众他其实是没有办法用到所以我想问一下卫福部的立场你们对于假如家里有需要长照的民众他们的使用牌照税你们的立场是什么"},{"start":14026.796,"end":14045.701,"text":"這個部分我們其實是尊重財政部的評估不過在長照的部分其實個案它如果本身有身障的資格跟長照的資格它也可以同時使用身障的福康巴士但是我剛剛跟你講說福康巴士比登天還難叫大部分都跟搶演唱會一樣要很認真的去打電腦"},{"start":14046.841,"end":14066.772,"text":"所以我的意思是說長照是台灣未來必經的道路而且現在你將近有一半的人沒有身心障礙但是他目前在使用政府的長照他拿不到身心障礙免稅的機會但是他自己還是用家人的車輛去接送需要長照的家人"},{"start":14067.532,"end":14087.23,"text":"所以這個部分也是我們希望說如果拿到政府長照的人他是不是有機會在他的交通方面也有一些相關的優惠請衛福部也表示一下你們的意見好嗎不是只有尊重財政部財政部只要講到稅他都不會同意啦但是你衛福部身為主管機關你們要表達你們的立場"},{"start":14089.452,"end":14103.384,"text":"今天拿不到身心障礙可是他又拿到長照然後他沒有相關的機會可能富康巴士也不見得做得到這才是今天最大的問題你知道我的意思嗎有一塊他是要家人自己送去"},{"start":14104.728,"end":14131.826,"text":"醫院或者是相關的使用的但他沒有辦法得到相關的優惠好嗎請衛福部一樣一個月給我一個你們的評估報告我覺得對於這些拿不到身心障礙的車牌的長照的民眾我們對於他有什麼樣其他的優惠方式好嗎是我們提供長照的部分我們再進行回覆說明謝謝委員好謝謝部長好謝謝黃珊珊委員部長請回"},{"start":14136.403,"end":14138.264,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝主席 楊瓊英發言邀請部長請莊部長"},{"start":14157.731,"end":14177.786,"text":"委員好 部長好本席提出了使用牌照稅法第五條的修正今天早上大家也討論了一個上午了所以本席首先要請教部長你應該是支持本席所提案吧就是從一百一十四年延長到一百一十九年"},{"start":14178.536,"end":14194.047,"text":"是 願滿也是從114年延長到119年底是的好 那我們終於有了一個共識方向一致那因為我們推動這個電動車的政策是這個ESG的概念大家全面"},{"start":14194.827,"end":14207.821,"text":"要怎麼樣去推動所以我本席才會提出的這個條例就從114年延長到5年也就是119年底因為我們知道現在我們的電動車的購車成本還是高"},{"start":14212.385,"end":14231.783,"text":"同時我們充電的環境它還沒有很普及所以換句話說在整個的部件建構還不是很完整所以我們更應該要支持更應該要推動所以我們希望市場要有信心讓它整個的轉型不要斷層"},{"start":14233.064,"end":14255.006,"text":"這是整個國家的政策所以同意了如此我們共同這個方向我相信一定對我們的淨零碳排會有很大的一個幫助等於在整個轉型方面也會有一個銜接面會成功所以我們希望讓產業在投資跟一個基礎建設方面它有喘息"},{"start":14255.626,"end":14271.619,"text":"跟佈局的空間最重要的就是綠色交通長期的發展的一個穩定基礎這一點很重要我們也希望各位同仁大家來支持主席台也儘速將這個使用牌照"},{"start":14272.98,"end":14296.993,"text":"稅法第五條的修正同意可以趕快送出去讓他三讀通過在這邊也給國人報告接下來本席要跟您討論的是公共銀行我們防範詐騙因為現在只要講到詐騙整個全民都要炸鍋甚至連我們今天開始的普發現金開始登記那部長"},{"start":14298.033,"end":14301.577,"text":"我們也了解今天開始登機我相信你的指標應該可以達到99%吧"},{"start":14305.439,"end":14329.004,"text":"對 根據上一次的經驗大概都有超過99%的民眾都有去申領這個補發現金對 那換句話說這個99%這個政策是對的是民眾需要的終於我們一直吶喊我們一直建議因為探求明末政府也聽到了民意那我覺得很好而且執行率就99%以上那代表著這個政策是正確的"},{"start":14334.806,"end":14352.919,"text":"但是就在這個過程當中我們通過之後馬上就有詐騙的釣魚簡訊就出來了這個是讓我們非常炸舌所以在這樣的情況之下宮古銀行我看到防範詐騙本席也跟你討論過幾次就是我們也投入了資源"},{"start":14354.6,"end":14380.32,"text":"跟經費但是針對於國庫署的一個統計2021年到2024年八大公股銀行防詐經費總共大概6500萬元2025年 今年大概在投資1.8億左右 甚至還更超過所以各家的銀行也積極地在導入AI監測的模型"},{"start":14381.261,"end":14401.471,"text":"我們希望就是疑似涉到帳戶預警平台跟跨行的聯訪通報機制來強化內部教育訓練但是我們都做了我相信大家都做了但是我看到我們立法運算中心指出顯示"},{"start":14403.852,"end":14421.231,"text":"警示的帳戶數它仍舊在攀升甚至發生銀行內部也有勾結的這個媒體上面也都有報出來那表示內控的制度的成效是有落差"},{"start":14421.972,"end":14428.66,"text":"是有落差 所以部長我們既然希望要強化整個這個績效那我們要怎麼樣的一個作為因為宮古銀行所"},{"start":14435.26,"end":14464.204,"text":"給的資源也就是防詐的基金已經超過1億以上但是他仍舊不斷地警示賬戶不斷地在增加所以在這樣的情況之下你們是不是有一定的量化的一個指標來衡量在整個你投資報酬率裡頭針對於防詐的部分他不會留以行事要怎麼去精進呢請教部長"},{"start":14465.556,"end":14480.669,"text":"謝謝委員我想第一個就是您剛剛提到的警示帳戶那其實是當然累積上面總數額是有在增加但是事實上是有比去年同期1到9月份來說事實上比去年同期是減少了20%的一個警示帳戶但這個數字不足以來參考"},{"start":14485.593,"end":14502.975,"text":"因為我們投資的金額比去年一定還要多所以剛剛本席特別跟你說的你必須量化去衡量你的成效是的 會的另外委員提到一個就是說內部同仁如果對外勾結這個部分是絕不寬帶的一定會移送法辦"},{"start":14503.716,"end":14507.558,"text":"而且一定會給予免職那這個部分我們要求各公股行庫對內的銀行的同仁都要能夠加強對他們的一個教育訓練以及告訴他們絕對不可以做這樣的一個事情同時對於相關的懲處也把成績拉高不是只有這個分行我們對要求總行都必須要有懲處"},{"start":14526.429,"end":14539.729,"text":"不要让某一个人影响到我们整个公股银行的士气这是不行但是本贤还是着重在于你的量化跟你的衡量投资下去的金额跟你经济的方案"},{"start":14540.424,"end":14555.794,"text":"对 会的这个部分我们各公股行库用各种方式包含对于就是为实名登录的社群我们都不再投注广告以及跟高检署来做联防这个部分部长一件所回答的也就是你目前"},{"start":14557.756,"end":14577.469,"text":"本席已經告訴你你的詐騙帳戶數還是在增加所以換句話說你目前所用的方式是不足以應對所以本席才具體要求你應該去精進方案將你精進方案的方式持續的精進是一定會要做的來給本席謝謝謝謝委員謝謝楊全元委員也謝謝部長"},{"start":14583.007,"end":14591.892,"text":"接下來請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員不在接下來請王洪威委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請我們財政部長莊部長好 請莊部長然後我請今天也有到場列席的我們新北市的財政局局長好嗎好 新北市"},{"start":14613.233,"end":14636.974,"text":"陳榮貴 陳局長部長好 局長好我們今天主要討論電動車牌照稅延長我想這部分包含行政院還有立法院跨黨派的委員都非常支持剛才我做提案說明的時候我有特別講因為今天為什麼找了我們六都的財政局或者是相關的稅制局的主管來"},{"start":14637.654,"end":14642.978,"text":"就是因為牌照稅是屬於地方稅所以我相信在你們研擬稅法修正的時候也會找我們地方的財主單位來做討論但是近年來其實是有一個問題因為確實我們最近討論很多中央財政的收支劃分"},{"start":14659.051,"end":14687.511,"text":"但是過去常常是會有一個問題就是中央請客然後地方買單所以我想請問一下陳局長我想牌照稅這個有關電動車牌照稅的這個優惠延長你們應該是支持那但是在如果說尤其六都這個電動車會比較多那在你們的稅損的部分稅收損失的部分你們有沒有期望或希望說中央"},{"start":14688.792,"end":14699.269,"text":"未來就從這個排料稅或者未來這些相關的你們地方的稅收損失的部分是不是應該予以給一些相關的補助跟分攤"},{"start":14702.759,"end":14724.168,"text":"跟委員報告未來五年如果再減免我們新北會稅損大概38億38億對我們是希望說由中央能源相關主管機關不管是經濟部的能源發展基金還是環境部的溫室氣體管理基金如果再不足就是公務預算編列撥補基金也可以"},{"start":14724.868,"end":14743.276,"text":"所以其實地方上38億其實對中央可能是九牛一毛對不起 時間暫停一下我也請我們台北市我們台北市今天是副局長來時間暫停 請台北市商務副局長 商務副局長我們台北市的稅收損失是多少"},{"start":14744.632,"end":14767.822,"text":"跟一座報告一下我們如果是接下來在延長大概5年的時間我們目前這邊推算大概可能會有到88億的情況但是因為這還是要看整體的整個在未來5年整體的電動車成長的幅度以及推估的方式當然其實如果電動車越多那相對的稅損會越高這是必然的"},{"start":14768.542,"end":14779.372,"text":"那因為時間關係我就不一一請個這個因為我們還有台中 桃園 台南那時間暫停一下兩位局長先可以請回謝謝當然我們其他我們桃園 台南或者是台中如果要給我們相關數字我們也會非常歡迎所以局長不對 部長"},{"start":14797.06,"end":14819.695,"text":"哪怪你不動如山部長有關於這個政策大家都支持但是它的稅收損失會集中在六都越是都會區 越會使用電動車的它的稅收損失越大你可以看得出來其實對地方政府來講台北市88億稅損新北市38億稅損其實對他們來講都是會肉痛的"},{"start":14827.1,"end":14831.224,"text":"你看光是新秀就是輝達的那塊T17、18大家來會再講它的權利金也不過不到40億、3、4億左右就來來回回談那麼久"},{"start":14842.655,"end":14858.443,"text":"所以這個牌照稅未來有沒有可能就是我們也來做一個協調就如同剛才陳局長說的比如說我們透過什麼農園發展基金或者是其他的相關的基金裡面對地方給予相關的補貼跟分攤"},{"start":14861.078,"end":14876.246,"text":"我想剛剛也好幾位委員都提出這樣的一個意見那我們那個環境部還有那個交通部還有經濟部他們都說他有關相關基金的部分是未來要做有關補貼部分他們帶回去研議"},{"start":14876.886,"end":14904.664,"text":"带回去研议非常好那另外时间有限那请教因为我们有关于台美贸易谈判照理讲应该接近尾声因为赖总统告诉我们很快就有好消息只是我们现在的好消息到现在为止还不知道那我曾经问过经济部长因为大家一般认为我们对于美制的汽车进口关税会是一个重点那会不会"},{"start":14905.945,"end":14922.813,"text":"最後我們對美國進口的汽車關稅降到零我想請問以部長來說我們如果把美製的汽車進口關稅降至零對稅損的部分會有很大影響嗎"},{"start":14925.438,"end":14941.553,"text":"根据我们大概算过是44亿44亿应该是在可应该绝对是可容忍的范围对不对就你们税损的评估来说目前来说谈判还在进行当中"},{"start":14943.015,"end":14945.157,"text":"對因為經濟部長他考慮到的是產業產業的影響你財政部長考慮的就是稅收的影響44億是可容忍的範圍嗎44億目前當然還要看其他的項目整體來看"},{"start":14959.531,"end":14975.916,"text":"好那另外一个我比较关心在去年我应该去年我也有问过对消费者来讲非常关心的两大关税一个就是汽车当然还有所谓的烟瓶还有保健食品最主要是保健食品"},{"start":14976.556,"end":15000.845,"text":"那保健食品呢因為我們跟其他國家的進口關稅稅率我們確實偏高那麼台灣高達30%那這個比其他國家或東南亞國家都要偏高所以使得很多人到美國是一定要去買保健食品的那請問一下保健食品的進口關稅是不是可以調降"},{"start":15002.814,"end":15015.984,"text":"第一個在台美談判裡面保健食品談判的稅率是多少當然還在討論當中經濟部的產發署也有提出有關保健食品調降關稅的一些方案時間暫停 正好產發署有來邱署長 經濟部產發署邱署長"},{"start":15024.241,"end":15042.549,"text":"好 署長這個是很多消費者非常關心的就是這個進口保健食品30%太高了可不可以調降或者是調降到零或者是至少可以調降到跟其他至少你可以要跟亞洲國家差不多吧報告委員就是現在經濟部跟財政部已經在啟動一個調降保健食品的這樣的一個關稅"},{"start":15053.064,"end":15073.196,"text":"的一個過程因為這牽涉到對消費者來講的話應該要給他們更多的好處優惠另外的話就是產業的發展所以我們現在是正在開會協調是不是能夠降到一個大家可以接受的數字兼顧到消費者的利益以及產業的發展所以降一半是合理範圍吧"},{"start":15074.389,"end":15091.295,"text":"这个也是一个考虑的方向因为如果降一半的话就跟日本差不多那降一半之后还有可能再往下降吗如果跟韩国比的话如果说要再往下降的话也可以考虑用比较阶段性的这样的方式来调降也是一种可以考虑的方向"},{"start":15092.014,"end":15118.62,"text":"用階段性但階段性可能要有一個期限對不對所以這樣50%是絕對可以看到的是一個可以討論的方向是可以討論的方向我知道你不會告訴我現在詳細的稅率但是我們希望能夠知道這個是往這個方向因為這個其實消費者長期都在討論好不好我覺得至少你要比照日本或者韓國好不好可以嗎好可以謝謝"},{"start":15120.94,"end":15146.213,"text":"謝謝委員我們謝謝王宏偉委員部長請回接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在葉延芝委員葉延芝委員葉延芝委員不在"},{"start":15148.783,"end":15169.037,"text":"我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議做如下決議說明均詢答完畢委員諮詢未及答覆或請求補充資訊請相關部會議議中人以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":15171.806,"end":15198.971,"text":"本日將先宣讀使用牌照稅法及修正動議等30案提案內容另擇期繼續審查本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理現在請議事人員宣讀使用牌照稅法等29案提案內容宣讀完畢後散會"},{"start":15203.604,"end":15216.229,"text":"使用牌照稅法修正草案案行政院提案對照現行條文修正第五條第二項條文部長我們各機關可以先行離席了謝謝大家請大家安靜的離席謝謝"},{"start":15219.625,"end":15233.357,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府於下列期間得對完全以電能為動力之機動車輛免徵使用牌照稅並報財政部被查1.電動汽車自中華民國101年1月6日起至119年12月31日止2.電動機車自中華民國107年1月1日起至119年12月31日止"},{"start":15243.652,"end":15266.623,"text":"委員邱政軍等19人提案委員陳昌明等18人提案委員羅明才等20人提案委員楊瓊瑩等27人提案委員徐宇珍等22人提案委員邱若驊等17人提案委員林俊憲等26人提案委員王宏偉等19人提案委員蘇清泉等18人提案委員郭育晴等19人提案"},{"start":15267.483,"end":15296.512,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案委員李坤誠等18人提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案委員郭國文等18人提案委員吳佩儀等17人提案委員葛如君等16人提案委員林思明等22人提案委員賴士寶等25人提案委員黃建豪等20人提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案均與行政院提案相同"},{"start":15297.816,"end":15303.288,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案修正第五條第二項通行證院提案"},{"start":15304.508,"end":15333.535,"text":"令新增第三項前項減免年限借期前半年行政院得依電動車登記數量充電基礎設施覆蓋率及其他低碳運具推展情況決定是否延長減免年限委員徐欣盈的二十四人提案修正第五條第二項同行政院提案令新增第三項前項完全以電能為動力之機動車輛馬達最大馬力超過二百六十二英制馬力HP或"},{"start":15335.701,"end":15337.771,"text":"265.9公至馬力 PS者不予免徵"},{"start":15339.522,"end":15358.375,"text":"委員廖偉祥等19人提案修正第五條第二項條文為直轄市及縣市政府於下列期間得對完全以電能為動力直機動車輛免徵使用牌照稅並報財政部被查一 電動汽車自中華民國101年1月6日起至120年12月31日止二 電動機車自中華民國107年1月1日起至120年12月31日止"},{"start":15368.84,"end":15388.013,"text":"委員審發會等17人提案修正第五條第二項條文為直轄市及縣市政府於下列期間得對完全以電能為動力之機動車輛免徵使用牌照稅並報財政部被查1.電動汽車自中華民國101年1月6日起至118年12月31日止"},{"start":15391.135,"end":15407.673,"text":"二 電動機車自中華民國107年1月1日起至118年12月31日止委員廖先祥等17人提案修正第五條第一項條文為使用牌照稅按交通工具種類分別課徵除機動車輛應就其車輛價格及年份劃分等級"},{"start":15411.957,"end":15424.512,"text":"船舶因按其頓位分別依第六條規定計徵外其他交通工具之徵收率由直轄市及縣市政府擬定提經同級民意機關通過並報財政部被查"},{"start":15425.891,"end":15444.224,"text":"修正第38條條文本法自公佈日施行但中華民國103年5月30日修正之第7條及106年11月14日修正之第6條附表5規定本法修正之第5條自修正公佈日之次年1月1日施行"},{"start":15445.365,"end":15461.712,"text":"委員廖偉祥等17人提案修正第7條第1項第8款身心障礙者及其配偶二親等以內親屬及最近一年有同居40至其他親屬之車輛供該身心障礙者使用免疫每一身心障礙者以一輛為限"},{"start":15462.972,"end":15476.602,"text":"但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS者其免徵金額以2400立方公分262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS車輛之稅額為限超過部分不予免徵"},{"start":15491.813,"end":15507.209,"text":"修正第38條本法自公佈日施行但中華民國全年、全月、全日修正之第7條自修正公佈日之次年1月1日施行委員、中嘉賓等16人提案修正第7條第一項第8款"},{"start":15508.427,"end":15531.067,"text":"公持有身心障礙手冊或證明並領有駕駛執照者使用且為該身心障礙者所有之車輛每人以一輛為限因身心障礙情況至無駕駛執照者其本人配偶或同一戶及二親等以內親屬所有公該身心障礙者使用之車輛每一身心障礙者以一輛為限"},{"start":15532.819,"end":15548.737,"text":"上述之身心障礙者若年滿65歲就無駕駛執照之身心障礙者適用之同一戶籍二親等以內之親屬不受二親等之限制其相關規定由主管機關定之但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分"},{"start":15550.399,"end":15577.24,"text":"完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS者其免徵金額以2400立方公分262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS車輛之稅額為限超過部分不予免徵委員紐許庭整17人提案修正第一項第八款"},{"start":15578.376,"end":15604.242,"text":"供持有身心障礙手冊或證明並領有駕駛執照者使用且為該身心障礙者所有之車輛每人以一輛為限因身心障礙情況至無駕駛執照者其本人配偶或同一戶及二親等以內親屬或成立司法院釋字第78號解釋施行法第二條關係之人就同一戶及對方二親等以內親屬所有"},{"start":15605.982,"end":15619.956,"text":"公該身心障礙者使用之車輛每一身心障礙者以一輛為限但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電容為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS者其免增金額以2400"},{"start":15628.16,"end":15632.845,"text":"立方公分262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS車輛之稅額為限超過部分不予免徵"},{"start":15639.83,"end":15662.831,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條第一項增列第十二款因長期照顧需求其本人配偶或同一戶籍二親等以內親屬所有公該需長期照顧之身心失能者使用之車輛每一符合中央衛生福利主管機關公告需長期照顧之身心失能者以一輛為限"},{"start":15664.403,"end":15678.092,"text":"但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS者其免徵金額以2400立方公分262英制馬力HP或265.9公制馬力PS車輛之稅額為限超過部分不予免徵"},{"start":15694.403,"end":15696.491,"text":"委員林德福等人所提修正動議"},{"start":15699.98,"end":15725.159,"text":"第五條第二項刪除並報財政部被查之規定修正電動車輛免徵使用牌照稅期限延長五年至一百十九年十二月三十一日至新增第三項前項至中華民國一百十五年一月一日起因免徵使用牌照稅造成直轄市及縣市政府減少之稅收應由中央能源主管機關補足之"},{"start":15727.898,"end":15735.119,"text":"提案人 林德福 賴世保 林思銘 李彥秀 顏寬恒 陳玉珍 羅明才 宣讀完畢"}]}},{"id":"165104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2427af374ab313544367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa97cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:41:39 - 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有請我們李部長請李部長"},{"start":15.151,"end":41.372,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想這個今年的這個預算審查文化部算是重災區這個預算被閃了6.2億追加的2.8億也被全數刪掉這個不單只是影響到這個國立台灣美術館創意中心這些國家產管的基本維護費未來對於這個產業支持國際文化交流甚至重要的文化藝術推動方面也會受到影響"},{"start":41.932,"end":62.928,"text":"我想包含我們各縣市政府還有許多的藝文團體大家都憂心從中部長針對這樣一個困境文化部有沒有做什麼樣的一個因應跟調整我想我們今年編的預算我想我們會盡量去努力的去溝通因為這個部分就是在立法院我們能做就是我們盡量的去跟立法委員溝通我們需要這個錢"},{"start":64.895,"end":73.724,"text":"部長我想不是只有這個公家機關受到影響我想因為可能我們地方辦的一些義務活動場次減少這個我們鄉親參與的意願也減少我想這個我們都不樂見所以部長我想"},{"start":80.33,"end":94.775,"text":"未來我身為屏東的立委我還是要替屏東講話我們自己這個拆化法之後屏東明年也少了40幾億那所以我們一些活動的補助相對性都減少那未來這樣子部長願不願意也來繼續支持屏東的一些藝文活動"},{"start":96.716,"end":120.91,"text":"我一直都很支持屏東而且我常常去屏東是是那時候盡我所能的能夠在預算上能夠補助文資修復也好活動也好我想我們是蠻盡力的錢都花在刀口上了是部長那有一個比較重要的問題我們過去我們六堆有一個煎炮城活動當然這是屬於比較客家性質的一個活動"},{"start":121.61,"end":147.714,"text":"但是因为这个过去它已经被列成全国的十二大的节庆活动之一因为过去文化部一体这一块我们一直没有争取到经费那部长这部分有没有机会来纳入我们的这个联络的活动计划里面因为它本身不具备文字身份所以在活动上我们是可以补助但是它本身因为不具备文字身份所以有些朋友我们就没有办法"},{"start":148.681,"end":171.984,"text":"但是這個是很重要的一個是非常重要因為六堆這個活動本身是非常重要部長這個來研議看看好不好OK沒問題那另外我想這個今年是恆春建成150週年保證前陣子五一看我們的古城那目前古城這個修復的進度部長可以說明一下嗎我請局長跟您報告很仔細的"},{"start":173.883,"end":197.043,"text":"徐委員 恆春古城我們有分的現在目前在西門到南門的B005到B007區段去年開工之後到最近已經報完工最近我們會驗收其他另外還有環城比較長的區域裡面我們現在就會採用上次徐委員也有關心我們希望可能要用分區分段的方式因為有一些涉及到私有建築"},{"start":197.783,"end":216.258,"text":"有一些是私有民宅另外一个是会影响到整个城内外民众的生活环境所以我们现在这个案子我们现在规划设计都已经好了工程的规划设计好了预计在年底以前会进行发包的作业这个局长我看我这个还是要加快进度因为这个已经讲了很久对 是"},{"start":216.838,"end":242.757,"text":"那除了這個之外 保庭還有一個比較嚴重的問題齁我們這個城牆齁 不記得了 那有卡車擋住了 傷痕累累這個我們一直有提到說要做一個限高限速這個規範但是好像一直方法都提不出來現在有說一個文資局預定今年底事辦進行汽車 有可能嗎這個我們的鄉親很關心 這個是議題啊好 我請局長回答一下"},{"start":244.694,"end":268.417,"text":"委員大概您也大概在整個輿情上都看得到這個我們才其實已經進行了跟居民溝通已經快三年了跟各位我們很慎重就是這裡面現在目前的方案都很早就出來了北門的部分大概比較沒有問題雙向的限高價西門大概是一個重點因為這次撞了這六年來撞的大概次數最多的是西門那我們現在在去年特別"},{"start":269.218,"end":285.436,"text":"所以最近我們在三個禮拜不到兩個多禮拜裡又到現地現場跟民眾做了說明會那現在我們就是在年底我們會辦西門的進行四輪車就是不要讓那個車輛進入只能夠用徒步的方式會示範先做示範"},{"start":286.437,"end":311.993,"text":"局長這一點我還是要拜託加快速度啦是不要說是你的成本還沒修復完已經都賣掉了啦是沒差勁啦是是不要講不可能啦因為現在你們一直提三年了還提不出對策要一直跟地方都沒說要請策對策是提很早就提出來是一直在跟民眾溝通好我想要加快速度好不好那這個部分部長也請你多關心一下我們這個相關的進度啦"},{"start":314.773,"end":335.367,"text":"因為它牽涉到蠻多的民眾的民宅所以我們其實一直要做可是它的溝通過程是真的比較久但是我憑良心講這個古城是全台灣唯一保留比較完整的我自己也去過它的確是未來台灣很重要的一個古蹟所以文字局其實投下去的"},{"start":336.678,"end":363.758,"text":"支援非常多但它只是附近居民会有很多意见这是唯一我们现在遇到的困难但是我们会尽量沟通部长其实我一直觉得这次我们的案子做一半而已照理讲应该是要把城墙内外的私有土地的部分应该一并做考量做处理要不然未来你私有土地卡在那里它也是动弹不得了没有错有没有办法这个一并来讨论解决好来处理一下我们尽快好 谢谢"},{"start":364.64,"end":367.498,"text":"谢谢徐富魁委员质询部长请回座"}]}},{"id":"165103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d20df8b04a564d896d367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa979a6adb080ab407945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:32:14 - 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其實委員你放心所以部長我要談的就是說您都這麼肯定那之前以前我質詢也常常講如果壯大台灣"},{"start":190.294,"end":209.502,"text":"少了原住民其實就沒有什麼意思了可是您看一下就是文化部所推動的這個業報上面講的70項歐洲藝文活動63項美洲文化交流計畫您知不知道到底有多少項目涉及原住民的藝術家或團隊"},{"start":211.834,"end":232.982,"text":"多少團隊我沒有太清楚可是我要跟委員好沒關係資料可以給我跟委員講像那個我們國家品牌團隊今年又增加一個布拉瑞揚的舞團他去美國八場都是我們提供他的他就是個原住民的舞者原住民的確幫了我們台灣在文化上很多的忙這點"},{"start":234.923,"end":261.942,"text":"請委員不用擔心謝謝部長就是有特別提到布拉瑞昂但是我其實就是要做一個小小的提醒因為這也是很多原住民藝術家的感受像這邊這個公文這個也是答物2025年他們提報了一個計畫部落周遊原住民國際交流計畫部長你們文化部的公文回應是欠難補助"},{"start":264.024,"end":290.641,"text":"那我就不太曉得說這樣的一個地方的團體他到底要怎麼樣才能夠得到我們文化部的幫助因為我是希望說文化部不要陷入一個邏輯一個盲點盲區就是如果說只補助那些本來就有知名度本來就有資源他們本來就有盈利能力的"},{"start":291.121,"end":306.717,"text":"那反而是我們的這一些必須要從土地慢慢長出來的這些沒有人來幫助他甚至他想要去交流也沒有人可以幫助他的時候部長您覺得這樣子我們的原住民文化產業有辦法健全有辦法茁壯嗎"},{"start":310.151,"end":327.319,"text":"我想這是一個單一申請補助案的其中一個案例因為我們每年的補助到國外去都有一個審查委員會那他是沒有過並不是因為他是原住民可能因為他企劃案寫的沒有符合我們要的"},{"start":328.78,"end":349.557,"text":"有很多很多原住民的活動都是由原民會去補助之外其實文化部投入在原住民的這個經費跟原住民的文化一點都沒有一點都不少那部長沒有關係因為我想我還是需要一下就是關於這一些資料那我希望可以書面提供"},{"start":350.117,"end":373.974,"text":"因為我們可以來盤點那我也希望說未來部長可以幫忙想想看我們怎麼樣去做一些專案或者是編列未來的這樣的一個計畫可以嗎可以 沒問題那謝謝那另外一個部分就是我很關心原住民的文化資產那特別是石板屋因為我生長在南部布農族 排灣族 魯凱族"},{"start":375.555,"end":387.826,"text":"都有石板屋那麼我們看到這個提報的目前一共有12個然後那麼大概這一些12個我認為部長您覺得多還是不多"},{"start":391.789,"end":416.699,"text":"多還是不多啊要看它原來有多少我很難回答耶但是我覺得能夠有矢板屋保留下來以我們台灣的這其中當然不是全部矢板屋而且大概屏東縣的很多都是我過去的時候提報的我也很高興能夠幫助Sivayan泰雅民族起源地現在也列為重要文化景觀但是我始終覺得說"},{"start":418.42,"end":445.136,"text":"這些能夠成為文化景觀能夠成為聚落建築群被重視被政府補助很好可是我們也看到我們很多部落還有一些很難得的雖然是斷垣牆壁很多石板屋可是他沒有能力去幫助他為什麼因為我們的文化部要看聚不聚文資身份"},{"start":446.276,"end":470.615,"text":"那內政部呢 他是要看是不是合法建物園民會呢 他也是要看是不是合法建物要不然他也沒有辦法補助他去做修繕所以他其實找不到任何管道那因此這些東西只好被拆掉只好呢 用可以貸款的現代建築物再重新把它蓋起來可是我們看到106到114"},{"start":473.297,"end":484.79,"text":"有一個文化部的私有老建築保存再生補助計畫這個當中很好宗旨叫做以時間換取新思維保留未來文化資產的機會"},{"start":486.772,"end":511.338,"text":"可是我不曉得說部長您可不可以了解一下我至少我知道總共249件的補助案其實我不知道原住民地區的建物到底核定多少我也希望給我這樣的一個資料那因為時間的關係我要講的是說未來我曾經質詢過部長您"},{"start":514.466,"end":534.381,"text":"關於石板屋要怎麼樣去私有的石板屋搶救保存其實對我們來講很重要那我也有曾經請教過您能不能夠想一些專案但是因為我目前也不知道到底有沒有那部長這個部分你有沒有可能未來能夠繼續用公務預算來推動這一類的計畫"},{"start":536.644,"end":556.573,"text":"我想我们事后我们研究一下在我们的预算里面的分配我想我会尽量努力好那我需要这一些书面的资料我们再来讨论未来要怎么做好不好是 没问题好 谢谢部长谢谢主席谢谢吴立华委员质询部长请回座"}]}},{"id":"165110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2522a021597b5c886367e5b5a2f2752d06b4ef68dc504cb3c7c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:53:04 - 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主席謝謝麻煩請李遠部長請李遠部長好 部長好侯委員好部長好 非常有精神好久不見感謝 您辛苦來 部長我先請教一下這個剛剛因為本席看到你有答詢的時候很多委員也關心到所謂的這個藝人逃兵 閃兵的一個部分那這個我先請教以我們文化部的態度到目前為止還有沒有掌握有哪些藝人有可能逃兵"},{"start":38.116,"end":51.204,"text":"這點我必須承認我還不知道誰逃走不知道但是我們應該是要呼籲所有只要是中華民國國民該當兵就當兵那如果說過去真的有用非法的手段逃兵閃兵的話應該要自首也要自首嗎"},{"start":52.533,"end":74.703,"text":"我想我要呼籲大家如果曾經犯過這個錯誤要很勇敢地面對過去的錯誤然後向社會道歉也向他們自己本身眾多的粉絲做一個好的示範因為藝人跟其實公眾人物都一樣他就是會當作是青少年甚至很多人的表率跟模仿的一個對象"},{"start":76.123,"end":91.318,"text":"我們來看到因為你這邊上有提到是說不會追回三金的獎項本席部分同意這個理由是因為三金的表現當它那一刻是在那一年的戲劇作品或相關的作品的"},{"start":91.818,"end":118.147,"text":"付出跟成績並不是他過去的一個狀況我們也看到好萊塢有一些藝人他之前可能有年少輕狂的時候但是最終在最後也有拿到這個奧斯卡金像獎等等的部分可是本席對於有一件事情我是沒有辦法接受剛剛我看到我也想要再確認怎麼會說是未來想要這些逃兵散兵的藝人鼓勵他們來拍片"},{"start":119.207,"end":124.238,"text":"来说来变成是这个促进这个国君的这个慕宾"},{"start":125.424,"end":151.916,"text":"我觉得这本末倒置了没有 这点我以为你误会我们怎么去找那个散逼去演那个不是 是说我们鼓励一些艺人来演这个东西来变成一个电影来让大家鼓舞士气我刚刚有讲到嘛其实我第一个军教片《成功礼赛》就是我写的嘛然后当时卖座非常好就是它有个气氛整个社会有个气氛以单兵为荣"},{"start":152.876,"end":180.078,"text":"那我們請藝人來演不是這些這個曾經閃兵人來演這兩個是完全不相關的事非常好所以部長本席來這邊就再一次確認因為有媒體已經出來剛剛的答詢居然講的是說是要找閃兵藝人來演我說這就完全錯了你怎麼會他曾經犯了錯然後結果我們還讓他好像變成是文化部要跳出來幫他洗白"},{"start":181.34,"end":197.899,"text":"让他有个机会来演什么军教片演什么相关的部分那到时候变成是闪兵的人反而可以拿标案啊闪兵的人反而有演出的机会那真正应该鼓励的反而是他在演艺生涯的时候毅然决然说我要愿意去当兵"},{"start":198.399,"end":223.485,"text":"服役物剛才可能我講話太快了一點他把這兩件事情併在一起可是你用常理判斷用常理判斷有誰會這麼笨到說去找傘兵演這個戲非常好所以部長我就是要你親口承諾這件事情不是要找這一些劣跡斑斑的藝人來去說協助拍片還是讓他有洗白的機會我想"},{"start":225.226,"end":242.099,"text":"他們的聲譽或說他們的演繹我也尊重跟他們無緣無仇但是他們要負起他們應該要負責任可是如果說真的要做我們要鼓勵跟形塑這個報國愛校國家的文化的應該是鼓勵有當過兵的"},{"start":243.171,"end":268.506,"text":"不要說加分啦但至少是你不能去縱容他們這樣行為然後好像讓他們有洗白的機會吧這點部長你同意當然當然不會要洗白因為洗白也去演這個不是也蠻諷刺的嗎是本席就是因為這樣所以才覺得說你不可能找一個有前科的人來演這個正義的使者你不可能找吸毒的人來演就是說不要吸毒找酒駕的人講說不要酒後開車"},{"start":269.326,"end":294.539,"text":"不可能嘛我是觉得曾经犯过错误的艺人能够勇敢面对自己的错误跟社会道歉跟他粉丝道歉他是一个很正面的对台湾的教育还有台湾社会是一个很正面就是你犯了错就道歉他有自首的勇气有道歉的勇气但是不是说我们再去给他创造机会来去那部长最后一分钟"},{"start":295.748,"end":322.419,"text":"我覺得韓國有這種當兵很驕傲的文化真的我們有看到韓國有些藝人他們去當兵的時候甚至他覺得說這個是當兵練體格當然不完全是文化部的事因為國防部其實應該要去思考為什麼韓國人為什麼現在韓國我們如果說有些朋友去自助旅行韓國路上是蠻多大大隻佬就很壯有在健身的人那"},{"start":323.727,"end":337.726,"text":"韓國的藝人會把去當兵當成是一種榮耀甚至是這個自我提升修煉然後再出來再回到演藝圈的時候他是可以接受媒體的掌聲跟那個那台灣為什麼沒有"},{"start":338.346,"end":365.897,"text":"我覺得委員你問到一個關鍵就是因為韓國人他本身非常團結而且他的民族性很強悍譬如他自己要看自己韓片要用韓國東西韓國最強甚至他改寫歷史韓國是一個強國台灣以前早期我們被訓練成也是覺得自己很大大中國我們要愛國我們要現身變成一個偉大的軍人像我當兵兩年我還自動請求去前線"},{"start":367.357,"end":390.439,"text":"就是我那個年代就是這樣子我希望台灣未來大家共同的凝聚一個作為台灣人是驕傲的為台灣打戰是驕傲的我想這是一個整體來大家都要努力的我們在野黨也好執政黨也好我們努力來做作為一個台灣軍人是光榮的我覺得這是一個整體大家從媒體也好"},{"start":392.236,"end":409.936,"text":"各方面來push這個事情不是單方面可以做得到所以這是一個文化的形塑對 是不只國防部 文化部本席以身為中華民國國民為榮以生活在台灣這塊土地為榮我也認同啊所以說我剛剛您說您當兩年兵我當一年四個月的兵"},{"start":410.476,"end":430.004,"text":"但是我們都該盡的依我們盡但更重要其實還有很多方面因為今天有限但是本席未來還有針對您剛有提到其實韓國他們有一些文化的塑造甚至他為什麼K-POP那麼的紅還有韓國有些時候在文化的話語權上面他們也持續的來去搶這個話語權"},{"start":432.225,"end":452.594,"text":"那历史以及这些相关的话语权我觉得这都是我们未来可以再做救教的部分但最重要的我觉得还是在这个当兵散兵的议题上面不能倒英为国不能让错误的榜样变成是国人的示范这点没问题好 谢谢部长谢谢谢谢侯孟凯"}]}},{"id":"165109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d206117f609b1423fc367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa97a8298b5aff6b46715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:47:52 - 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義診的診所"},{"start":128.447,"end":150.108,"text":"當然要朝向疫診的診所這就等於說一間診所的病院嘛這個也要衛福部這邊再來一間協助但是不管怎樣在文資保存的部分這就需要我們文化部我們文資局來打完倒撒缸所以我想要請教一下說這案已經從討論到目前截止已經超過"},{"start":151.621,"end":162.888,"text":"大概快要一年的時間了啦已經有 重慶要一年啊那我想要問一下說整個案的一個進展的狀況呢是不是這邊 文資局這邊可以說明一下好 請局長回答一下"},{"start":164.876,"end":184.302,"text":"委員 這個案子因為它的主管機關是嘉義縣政府我們會再進一步了解就是說關於剛才提到的修復還有再利用我想這個東西再利用的部分經過討論之後因為所有權人還有這個主管機關討論之後送到審議會裡面去決定它的那個再利用的方向那經費的部分我們文治局會來協助"},{"start":186.543,"end":205.73,"text":"對 局長就是說就我目前了解就文資局你們也很好你們有同意我們這個方向就是朝向日新醫院疫診診所的修復規劃那未來的一些補助你們有同意但是整案就是還沒有核定對 還沒有整案還沒有核定那還沒有核定原因是出在哪邊"},{"start":206.93,"end":219.103,"text":"是不是可以讓我們稍微掌握一下是說我們縣政府是不是要修訂計畫還是所有全能我們佩天宮這裡要提出他未來這個議診要怎麼執行的是有細節上的困難還是怎樣不然的話變成說"},{"start":222.386,"end":236.711,"text":"這個大家出於一片善心想要去做這樣的一個議診時間被拖久了這樣比較沒意思現在就是現在各地來申請的案件除了這個風災豪雨之外"},{"start":237.091,"end":258.521,"text":"这些是我们例行性我们的那个文化资产修复的补助案件现在案件非常多那因为现在涉及我们就是预算不足我们现在在盘点预算另外还有因为财政收支划分法修正之后主席总处还没有公布县市财力分级那我们会整个的通盘考量再来核定这个相关的案件"},{"start":259.862,"end":288.563,"text":"所以醫師就會等到明年喔是 這個看起來要等到那個財力分級公佈之後我們會繼續來處理所有的這些相關補助案好 如果是前面有這麼多障礙啦我希望這些障礙一旦排除了我們這案是不是可以趕快優先來審理因為這真的是一個很好的它未來從一個過去最老的一個西醫院未來變成一個一整的醫院這個對地方來說是百分之百的正面耶是"},{"start":289.223,"end":301.067,"text":"所以大家也期待那你以文資的修復的立場它不僅僅是修復它是再利用讓它整個活化起來這個我覺得文化部在比較大的台灣籍請你拜託好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2057210c0226d001a367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa975a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:18:51 - 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部長非常感謝10月29號你親自到我們的北門成家古厝那你也來到了我們的南昆深 帶天湖帶來了資源也帶來了很多的一個珍貴文化資產的一個鼓勵"},{"start":25.385,"end":47.981,"text":"那今天要跟部長探討了就是說丹納斯颱風還有就是氣候異常那常常我們會有不可逆的這一些氣候因素外來因素那對於我們的這些歷史古蹟不能只有就是恢復到原狀我們希望就是說結構的一個升級在這一次丹納斯颱風其實重創了整個"},{"start":51.383,"end":73.451,"text":"大台南那這50件的歷史古蹟裡頭我們這50件裡頭包括了31處的市定古蹟跟19處的這個歷史建築那特別要請教部長就是說在特別預算用於災後復原的整體的執行力現在到哪裡那在未來的結構升級是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":74.689,"end":96.102,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題就是我們申請到這個費用以後最近才開始正式的因為我們要從地方上提這個計劃案上來我們才來核發所以最近我為什麼才開始能夠去台南或者嘉義去了解就是因為我們那個預算大概已經分配完但是我們的進行其實早就開始了像我對於這個"},{"start":97.623,"end":120.376,"text":"南部這次風災之後要恢復它原來那些文資身份的這個建築物其實我個人非常關心所以在去了台南跟嘉義之後的這個禮拜天我們在我們的台中文資局成立了一個全台灣第一個傳統匠師的工會因為我們遇到的問題就是傳統匠師的年齡"},{"start":121.597,"end":138.557,"text":"還有他的那個人才一直在流失我想要知道就是說整個整體來講丹納斯颱風這一次就是這重創的沿台就是台南市的這50個50個地方的歷史古蹟你到什麼時候要把它執行完畢這裡我想局長回答一下好嗎好"},{"start":141.607,"end":155.807,"text":"文化部所爭取到的2.94億我們就是依照重建條例你明年12月底完成為目標局長 明年的12月底你有把握就是說這個經費的執行我們會以這個為目標但是整個的"},{"start":156.147,"end":180.356,"text":"作為目標而已還是說你絕對有辦法把他就是這個目標在12月底把它完成因為分階段他有一些是緊急搶救因為一個文化資產要所以不見得是12月底好那你的那個中期呢中期你怎麼樣消化這個這個會後再提個書面報告過來好那個部長我再請教你就針對的我們"},{"start":181.616,"end":207.954,"text":"台南 鹽水就是我們有一個國家級的那個影視基地那在7月19號去年的7月19號你來了一次我相信這個王實施次長對這個地方相當相當的有感情這個是他在我們台南市這個就任的這個任內這有一個這麼棒的一個國家級的影視基地那行政院長還有那個我們的那個"},{"start":209.455,"end":225.198,"text":"副院長他其實都來過了幾次這是賴清德總統當時在當台南市市長的時候他所立下的一個文化古蹟那就是說不是文化古蹟抱歉是一個就是花展就是"},{"start":225.899,"end":241.452,"text":"台灣的一個案內就是那個發展台灣的一個隱世的一個基地的一個重鎮那現在就是說在這一次的風災它也被重創了斯卡羅那一個就是案場整個都被吹倒了"},{"start":241.852,"end":265.809,"text":"那風災的重創怎麼樣恢復它這個也是我需要就是部長來關心的那況且還有一段就是說護岩的時程是多久這個也要請文化部就是說怎麼跟地方政府共同的推動還有它有一個很嚴重很嚴重的一個問題沒有一個永續配套私林它的住宿能量不足"},{"start":266.069,"end":290.809,"text":"因為他一個案組通常他需要上百人那這上百人要住在什麼地方他住在鹽水也不適合他住在新營這個地方他能容納的其實是有限很多很多就是說比較好的這種劇組他其實是不願意到這個地方來的那你的配套你要趕快出來那以上就是利用這樣今天一個質詢的時間"},{"start":292.19,"end":309.348,"text":"跟部長做這樣的一個探討然後順便再跟局長再探討一下就是說我們新營的這個新營糖廠的宿舍群的一個修繕這個是離譜到離譜我上一屆的時候就已經是啟動第一次的會刊"},{"start":309.969,"end":337.255,"text":"那从2018年这个考察座谈一直到2025年的二页的协调会毫无进展不管是台堂不管是经济部不管是文化部所以在这里要拜托部长就是说把这个进展推动一下谢谢谢谢部长谢谢主席谢谢谢谢赖会员委员咨询部长请回座接下来请卢宪"}]}},{"id":"165094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d265b7627fe0b57905367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa97c0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:06:31 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劉建國 劉建國委員不在接下來請林倩琦委員質詢質詢時間4分鐘謝謝我們主席召委我請一下我們李遠部長 謝謝請李遠部長"},{"start":27.771,"end":50.371,"text":"部長好 本席今天先針對台籍慰安婦的歷史記憶跟婦女人權教育的問題這邊來跟你討教跟建議前些時間8月14號是國際慰安婦的紀念日我們知道戰爭不是只有槍砲跟成敗很重要的是在這件事情上很有無數的女性在軍國主義下被迫淪為性奴"},{"start":52.012,"end":80.42,"text":"那麼承受一身難以抹去的傷痛但是台灣整個58位的慰安婦當中最後一位倖存者已經在2023年離世這段歷史他們沒有等到在世的時候讓我們有機會去跟他們有對話所以我們現在只能透過行動來鳴記跟傳承58位的受害者當中有12位是原住民比例也非常高"},{"start":81.34,"end":96.39,"text":"那不同於送往海外的閩南籍跟客家的這個受害者原住民本身呢原住民的女性在本島就已經遭受一些迫害那麼白天呢要進日營的這個營區打掃那晚上就被迫當性奴隸"},{"start":97.47,"end":115.566,"text":"這不僅是性暴力更是殖民體制下對原住民的雙重壓迫本席在這邊要呼籲文化部這其實也是一些婦女團體的呼籲我們應該成立婦女人權博物館讓這段歷史與女性人權的議題有一些專責的場域來承載"},{"start":117.868,"end":129.965,"text":"民間有阿嬤家和平與女性人權館但規模有限那也是民間的沒有辦法涵蓋全國的教育研究與國際交流的需求所以本席在這邊有三個訴求"},{"start":132.648,"end":151.501,"text":"第一個 現在能不能規劃婦女人權博物館讓台籍的慰安婦女的歷史與亞洲其他地區的研究在台灣成為一個重要的基地第二個部分 能不能跟教育部來合作將現有的場館資源跟教材做一個設計跟結合推動青年參與與相關的國際交流"},{"start":155.043,"end":171.353,"text":"那麼也就是說讓現在的這個青年人對於這段歷史不是那麼清楚的話呢有這樣子一個平台那第三個部分你們召開的全國文化會議是不是應該將女性的議題納入討論的主題成為政策優先的一個方向"},{"start":172.153,"end":187.531,"text":"那抗戰呢是勝利的那是我們的榮光但是未安撫的正義他們在世的時候沒有等到可是這段歷史也是值得我們來記憶跟學習的所以我們要誠實的來面對這段歷史來修復這段"},{"start":191.736,"end":214.708,"text":"失去的一切所以我們要建立在誠實的一個外交教育文化政策上然後不能選擇性的一個失意那我們也不應該因為這一群人的凋零而消失所以本期在這邊呼籲跟要求文化部可不可以展去比較明確的一個立場跟具體的一個行動來正視這個問題然後能夠來為這一部分的人來發聲雖然他們都已經離世了"},{"start":221.651,"end":243.584,"text":"來 部長好 謝謝委員質疑這個其實那個民間的阿嬤家和平與女性人權館是我們長期也會資助他的可是要慢慢轉成一個這個博物館整體而言那個博物館的設置部長 本席這邊其實沒有一定鎖定在那邊我意思是說民間都已經在做了那政府其實可以有更大的格局更前瞻來"},{"start":245.245,"end":268.551,"text":"做這件事情因為他們沒有得到這個政府的一個支持所以他們就開始有了這個民間的這樣一個博物館那其實我們應該有更大的格局還有更全面的一個教育來做這件事情這本席的一個訴求啦那對於全國的這個公私管社我想文化部應該長期應該是你們的責任來做處理的那本席的那三點訴求你怎麼樣的看法"},{"start":269.466,"end":291.704,"text":"我覺得這個看法非常好但是我們會回來研究看因為設立博物館本身它涉及到非常多的東西包括人才包括地點本席這邊也提醒了本席長期對於人權博物館這邊也有一些建議那你們其實是可以在議題這個部分去做一些看怎麼樣結合的一個處理好不好那是不是可以給本席一個比較具體的回應"},{"start":294.226,"end":318.013,"text":"第二個部分很快就是本席在國事論壇我相信您當時也在談到了台灣plus的問題今天就一個對於那個績效指標我相信您應該聽到本席那時候發言非常的清楚本席今天最主要講的是英語帶有台灣腔的這個部分就失去了播音的機會不好意思部長那個台灣plus應該讓台灣的各種聲音有"},{"start":318.553,"end":336.791,"text":"一個平台跟管道出現就像本席所講的喔 台灣Q不是同台灣的嘛阿你沒要讓人聽到這個台灣Q的演繹阿說這樣播報不行那台灣的文化怎麼有可能在各種面向來出現跟發生呢這是本席最主要的一個很重視的一個重點"},{"start":337.432,"end":364.757,"text":"所以這個部分是不是請部長你們應該在本席所講的KPI跟外部的審議機制要來保障多元的一個監督那您的看法如何這個部分本席要比較具體的一個回應這個您剛剛講的問題我覺得蠻重要就是我們但是我們在陸續改這個問題我們有了解到我們陸續在改進中包括有幾個主播是台灣籍的將來有一天就會有台灣英語這樣子"},{"start":367.274,"end":385.385,"text":"好 謝謝部長啦這個本席真的深有同感過去在美國念書的時候那很多比如說有台灣口音的人其實外國人都非常的欣賞所以不要我們不是英語的正英班所以透過這個平台讓大家真正了解台灣的多元好不好好 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請部長請保釣委員好 部長跟你跟部長做一個探討10月28號以後近一個禮拜我的臉書被灌爆加碼補助雖然是好事情可是基層苦苦的在等待一個明確的說明10月28號行政院長他有公布就是說"},{"start":28.799,"end":39.504,"text":"針對丹納斯颱風在這個兩萬元的加碼補助的部分算兩萬那我可不可以請那個署長跟您報告一下好嗎最新的進度沒問題跟委員報告這應該也是在10月28號院長宣布的這個最新的就是他一致性也就是說他是一般戶有這一個煤和修繕簽約的這個部分又加兩萬"},{"start":58.31,"end":68.092,"text":"這個部分後來又再公布了一個部分修繕面積的我請問你到底就是說在台南市登錄的這個47,823戶然後媒合成功的1022戶那剩下來的這個46,801戶是不是每一個戶都可以領到這個兩萬塊"},{"start":86.993,"end":92.405,"text":"每一戶都可以領到兩萬塊可是現在就是在整個地方上這個"},{"start":94.042,"end":120.875,"text":"台南市政府也說不清楚所以今天特別特別回到那個行政院就是要問那行政院什麼時候撥款因為你要告訴我說現在計劃還在擬定然後那個等花放的辦法擬定了以後再往下走再提出申請再提出那個核定的一個那個辦法那這到底要多久"},{"start":122.01,"end":143.057,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們已經簽報到行政院了因為跟委員報告的確就是台南市政委員很辛苦因為每條一次方案他們的經費就要重算所以已經算了很多次所以後來已經有提報上了你簽到行政院就是你一定的計畫簽到行政院對不對現在是到這個環節而已"},{"start":145.018,"end":173.809,"text":"那我再請教你說你的花放的一個辦法到你的核定然後核定完了以後你還要再公佈就是你申請的你花放的流程這樣大概要多久我們是希望在這個月內就處理完了因為這個月內你承諾這個月內重塑 重減 重寬因為這一次就不分資格了在地方我們被罵慘了因為台南市政府也講不清楚"},{"start":174.582,"end":192.727,"text":"那是行政院公布的行政院公布的你這10月28號都公布了我們這個圖卡也做了結果我們沒有辦法很明確的告訴大家就是說錢什麼時候花那這個資格是不是這個就是扣掉了1022戶其他的46801戶這個一樣也可以領到這個2萬塊嗎署長"},{"start":200.609,"end":216.771,"text":"一樣也可以領到這個兩萬塊嗎補考的都可以領到這個兩萬塊你不要給我回答是你說對完全正確沒有錯這些人也可以領到兩萬塊因為我這樣好撿袋子"},{"start":218.243,"end":231.555,"text":"為什麼因為大家不清楚嘛所以我們變成就是說一定要來聽部長聽署長很正確的把所有的該有的這一些條件然後把它講清楚"},{"start":232.863,"end":253.582,"text":"對 因為市府也辛苦 因為要全部重新造冊所以我們也是 那時候也請他趕快造冊那我們一邊報計畫 然後他請他一邊造冊這個可以同時嘛對 現在兩邊同時在作業所以署長 你承諾就是這加碼的兩萬塊就是在這個月的月底 11月月底大家會領到錢大家有辦法領到錢"},{"start":257.265,"end":268.397,"text":"那這些情況自行修繕的也是一樣可以領到這個兩萬塊那是不是可以比照就是污損的未住金直接撥入帳戶呢"},{"start":270.207,"end":291.793,"text":"我想我們跟市府確認一下因為市府也有市府的作業我們是負責把錢撥給市政府我想署長你來自於台南你應該非常清楚就是台南市就是我們的那個台南市民的那個年齡層年紀偏大如果可以直接撥入就是延漲付的話這個會減少到就是詐騙詐騙的一個那個集團的"},{"start":297.796,"end":308.398,"text":"再一次的他們的一個行動所以我還是建議就是直接撥入延漲戶這個是對市民來講是一個比較安全的方式"},{"start":309.68,"end":328.415,"text":"會來跟市府這邊加速協商這個事情好 謝謝那再跟部長請教一下找不到路這個找不到路台南市升格15年還有7個區沒有入民那其中這7個區本席就有3個區那存在了一個就是江津北門學甲"},{"start":330.171,"end":354.651,"text":"那提出來要那個整個那個自救的一個情況是不是就是說條件太嚴苛了需要那個五分之一的副長提案然後再取得三分之二的書面同意是不是就是說甚至還要再等到一年以後如果這一次沒有過的話要再等到一年以後才能重提"},{"start":355.68,"end":360.819,"text":"那在這裡要請教部長有沒有比較好的一個方式找不到"},{"start":362.458,"end":387.557,"text":"只有路名 門牌號 沒有路名只有門牌號跟那個地方的一個名字那怎麼辦 這個是需要中央的一個協助那個台南市政府可以先編訂路名嗎沒有路名我們外地的人怎麼找得到他就是沒有辦法編嘛 他就是沒有辦法編所以是不是 你看嘛 他已經晃著升格15年了他到現在一直沒有處理"},{"start":388.337,"end":414.672,"text":"所以就是說有沒有一個具體的方式可以那個來那邊有里長然後有里長表示有里長辦公室那附近有沒有派出所有啊都有啊這樣子好不好就是說我們先找定點因為未來的這個派出所或者是消防隊他們會有他們的這個地方上的點位那如果在救災上面他知道地方上點位在哪裡的話也許我們找到會比較方便"},{"start":414.872,"end":437.551,"text":"因為你沒有入名我們也沒有辦法去告訴外來救災的人怎麼樣去到那個現場好嗎所以這一次在丹納斯颱風就出現了很多志工還有就是這些物理守護道 吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏吹不攏然後那還有就是說再跟部長做一個建議你這個全台那個在使用沒有入名的名牌的範圍跟戶數在距離這個盤點"},{"start":441.474,"end":459.971,"text":"已經有五年的時間沒有盤點了要加速加快好 謝謝 謝謝部長我們還是請台南市政府根據地方自治趕快把路民送出來這樣可能會比較好好 那就回到第一我這個也是要撿袋子撿袋子 然後就讓黃偉哲市長聽到是 好 謝謝好 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來難得來"},{"start":332.574,"end":360.254,"text":"美蕙給我多兩分鐘好不好好你請坐來現在金門有那個落地簽馬祖沒有耶金門小山東開放以後金門馬祖開放嘛金門現在人流是一百多萬人我們馬祖大概大陸過來只有兩千個人對所以大陸那邊一直跟我講"},{"start":361.44,"end":362.902,"text":"希望能夠辦落地簽可以辦落地簽嗎報告委員我們得到的訊息是金門的落地簽還沒有完全同意"},{"start":374.793,"end":391.804,"text":"沒完全同意你覺得沒有嗎因為我們是跟陸委會一起所以陸委會他在溝通的過程當中如果有的話我們當然會樂觀其他現在的大陸觀光客一個都不准進來你知道這個事嗎除了商務簽證可以進來其他人"},{"start":399.135,"end":417.622,"text":"來觀光一個都不能放進來報告委員那個觀光社還沒有開放但是那個小三通的部分是有對那健康永續的交流如果沒有健康永續的話沒有講一國兩制沒有講九二共識永遠也健康不起來那大陸人永遠不要來不要來對我們是好事還是壞事"},{"start":419.069,"end":447.122,"text":"報告委員 健康有序啦然後健康有序也要安全你講的很健康 人家講的不健康啊各說各話 現在又躺在那裡我跟陸委會主委講 你在十年啊也是在繼續健康有序啦是這樣子嗎如果有飛機跟船艦在我們的海峽周遭騷擾的話一點也不健康啊 因為不安全啊人進不來他們大陸人進不了台灣"},{"start":448.251,"end":467.926,"text":"沒有喔 我所了解的從中國大陸到台灣來不管他是什麼身份這個人數跟疫情前比起來是不差部長我今天提醒你注意一下好不好因為你非常優秀的人啊對不對你在高雄也當過副市長又當過我們同事對不對現在貴為內政部部長你研究一下好不好"},{"start":468.632,"end":490.462,"text":"看看這個 我們跟陸委會來配合看看陸立謙 你最好不要跟他配合 配合就沒有了行政是一體的 有時候他們會當比較多黑臉好好研究一下好不好 好 謝謝因為那個我後面是賴慧媛時間給我啦不行啦 不行這樣子不行喔 不行好啦好啦 不行啦 好啦好啦 謝謝趙委好 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有沒有一些方案因為它是一個公共場所 安全是最重要的一個問題啦所以如果沒有這個安全的一個保障 沒有這個建造實照的話應該是不太適合作為公眾集會的場所"},{"start":184.958,"end":199.513,"text":"但是他們現在事實上實際上他成為一個集會所啊那所以這是一個死循環嘛因為他沒有實照他沒有辦法申請內政部的農村社區公共改善的補助計畫或者是政府的修繕計畫或者是我們剛才提到公共服務據點及公有危險建築"},{"start":200.394,"end":218.784,"text":"這一個補強的計畫那怎麼辦呢那他現在實質上還是在被使用如果是合法的這個建築物當然相關的補強以往是有補助那如果沒有建造史照這部分通常是由地方政府選密和這個適合的地點再來改建"},{"start":219.81,"end":246.369,"text":"直接就是把那些地方全部把它廢除掉然後找其他地方再來改建找其他事務的地點來新建或改建那這個我剛剛提到270幾個有90多個據點我們現在不講我們沒有在搶匯付我想你們所主管的這些集會場所啊包含你們也被監察院這一個有報告上面質詢的這些集會場所就是你們所負責的地方你們現在的問題出現了你要怎麼樣保證它的基本安全"},{"start":248.4,"end":265.861,"text":"这些人出现我的建议是不是有办法设立过渡型的安全改善的专项补助过去六年在这个前瞻计划里面地方有提出来的要这个补强要改善的部分可以处理的部分我们都已经尽量来做协助了"},{"start":266.221,"end":288.041,"text":"我現在講的就是我剛才提到的實質使用沒有建造實照的這一些因為基於安全的問題這個部分我們還是建議地方要尋找適合的地點來興建公共集會的一個場所哇那這樣子在我們嘉義縣剛剛提到的你們所挾的這個據點"},{"start":290.342,"end":306.853,"text":"有六七層都沒有耶那我們要怎麼樣找到那六七層沒有石造跟建造的這些建築物來供這個我們的這種據點使用這個部分因為基於公眾安全這個部分我們還會再跟地方政府來做討論"},{"start":308.475,"end":324.973,"text":"呃 基本上 沒關係 那我的意思是說假設 現有據點你沒有辦法 因為它沒有建造史照你沒有辦法可以補助修繕等等的那變成要尋覓新的地點來去重新啟用不是重新啟用 來去重新來建造那就是很大規模的這個預算囉"},{"start":327.24,"end":345.649,"text":"我們不要計要且要沒關係但是我們要一個方案嘛那現在就是方案沒有出來嘛方案經常院也都給你們有相關的這些報告來說你們這些不管是你的這些這個防災的避難所等等有些都不符合規定嘛那這個錢要怎麼辦這個想一下好不好"},{"start":346.269,"end":372.95,"text":"委員我跟您回應一下那個我相信在嘉義縣碰到這個困擾所以那個委員才會提出這樣的問題我剛有詢問我們國土署我們國土署有幫忙做這個耐震補強只有針對耐震補強的部分那這個是表示外觀的這個結構建築在耐震上面如果需要幫忙的話我們可以協助可是未來可不可以指定成防災協作的這個部分要由民政司來做確認因為他還是要求你需要有建物"},{"start":373.61,"end":389.739,"text":"要非常安全而且所有權沒有其他的這個爭執的時候才能指定下去所以這是兩回事但是如果你針對屋子本身的結構上面需要耐震補強的部分我想我們國土署是可以協助的耐震的話是可以協助的好吧總是有一個開始嘛好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2294c2b2ae1a0df68d470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c8b5c004b5ca1c9ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:17:03 - 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有請部長今天跟部長討論兩個問題一個就是有關於社團法 另外一個是國家公園法就是說社團法在第九屆的時候我相信部長當時應該也非常了解它其實已經到了一個黨團協商的程序可是最後沒有三讀通過"},{"start":24.068,"end":43.806,"text":"那随着届期不连续那立法程序也就中断了嘛那到现在已经过了七年我们还像这个法案好像都还在行政院那我不太确定说我们现在是不是有打算开始重启这个作业因为我想跟部长表达就是说根据我们在2022年的这个国家结论性意见书里面就有提到"},{"start":44.727,"end":60.628,"text":"就是這些國際的學者建議我們應該要盡速的完成社團法的立法而且人民團體法也被批評說是戒嚴時代的一個威權移序過度的限制公民的結社自由所以社團法的制定其實是深化台灣的民主"},{"start":61.707,"end":85.973,"text":"那再來根據AFCA的這個亞洲公民未來協會呢他的報告也曾經指出在2020年外交部雖然曾經放寬過規定允許外國設立辦事處看似開放可是其實沒有法人的地位所以他沒有辦法進行募款也沒有辦法招募志工那特別是如果辦事處代表離職帳戶無法交接整個組織會陷入停擺"},{"start":88.294,"end":106.089,"text":"所以現在其實非常的迫切需要我們去有一個這樣子的社團法讓這些外國組織也可以登記為法人讓這些國際人權組織可以合法的運作也能夠讓我們的兒少參與更為落實所以我想要了解一下我們現在是不是有打算重啟那有沒有個具體的規劃時程"},{"start":107.61,"end":133.354,"text":"報告張委員我們在這個社團法的草案其實有送到行政院那在審議的過程當然是按照張委員所剛所提到兩公約的部分包括要調降他的發起人的門檻還有調降他要跨七個縣市然後還有針對這個具備居留證的部分或者是說未來看可不可以把許可制改為登記制度這個比較寬鬆的方式就是低度管理"},{"start":134.094,"end":152.245,"text":"那這個部分呢目前為止行政院還沒有把它完成這方面草案的審議送到大院來那但是我們依照這樣的精神呢我們還是會持續改進未來如果有需求的話我們會朝著這方面再繼續努力我想已經迫切的有這個需求啦那是不是說因為其實已經過了也蠻長一段時間期"},{"start":153.005,"end":178.311,"text":"對 但是要排到議程上面也是一個比較大我們內政部需要去持續關注的一個焦點我想的是說內政部可不可以持續的去催促同時去收集一些新的意見對 但是我們也很怕藉其不蓄神所以可能在處理的過程當中我們會來努力就是說大院裡面如果有很多委員覺得這是一個共識性很強的話送進來我想並不會是太大的困擾"},{"start":179.762,"end":194.859,"text":"我想要說的是說內政部可不可以開始去收集一些相關的意見因為可能當時的版本當然我們如果要送進來的時候內部一定會再重新檢討希望能夠適應更多的國際上的建議的意見或是國內社團的要求"},{"start":195.745,"end":220.135,"text":"好 了解 那再來第二個討論就是國家公園法其實已經超過半世紀從民國61年制定到現在已經超過半世紀沒有檢討那我想部長也非常清楚我們過去是一個封山的國家可是我們現在已經走向開放山林 向山致敬可是我們對於法治卻停留在禁止為主的一個思維缺乏彈性跟風險管理的一個架構"},{"start":221.455,"end":250.715,"text":"導致了保育跟使用的長期對立舉例來說呢2015年陽明山國家公園修正區域規範之後呢造成了兩個問題第一個園內禁止步道競賽結果連非競技的活動也被限縮第二個像攀岩現在很多人會去玩攀岩這個活動可是因為責任歸屬不明維護標準模糊至今還是沒有正式的開放可是我們都非常清楚的知道實際上已經參與的人口非常的多那這樣子的人口在使用上"},{"start":251.335,"end":275.953,"text":"已經節節增加的時候我們可以看到在美國在美國他們其實已經有相關的做法例如國家公園管理局的就非常的明確的說要保育自然與歷史景觀的同時與全民共享經驗所以他們在很多的國家公園像這個是優勝美帝它有攀岩然後還有像是大峽谷它有越野跑長城健行那都是透過承載量控制"},{"start":276.713,"end":298.71,"text":"季节性限制以及活动分区来让开放跟保育并行那像在右边的这个日本的自然公园法也是我们大家可以看到这是在日光国立公园举行举办的越野跑都是把亲近自然视为教育的一个部分而不是只是让公园只是被观看的风景我想我想强调一个重点就是说三月"},{"start":299.711,"end":314.556,"text":"是一個非常重要的環境教育的場域我們修法的時候應該要把戶外的安全條件和設施責任釐清所以我想請教一下部長是不是有一個具體的時程是否可以來納入我們日本跟美國的一個管理經驗"},{"start":315.616,"end":333.513,"text":"報告委員國家公園法的修法作業其實非常多的多元那當然我們已經開始有召開跨部會的協商了那什麼時候完成我希望國家公園署可以加快但是委員所提到的這些山域活動的部分牽涉不會是只有我們國家公園署"},{"start":334.393,"end":351.463,"text":"其實還有運動部甚至交通部的觀光署都包含在內那只要呢它所這個規範的這些活動呢不要影響到我們國家公園署站在一個國家公園的角度上包括山林保育或者是這個氣候變遷還有安全上的需求的話其實我們都樂觀其成"},{"start":352.924,"end":381.215,"text":"我想就是說因為我們今天要談開放我也想要跟部長還有這個署長嘛對不對就是說因為要講這件事情之前還是要了解環境承載量到底可以承載到多少才能夠確實的保育能不能執行嘛所以而且因為不同的園區生態條件環境都是非常不同的所以我們必須要一個量化的科學研究是不是可以請部長同意我們針對國家公園的環境承載量制度進行一個系統性的研究用更客觀的數據作為依據呢"},{"start":383.583,"end":403.356,"text":"跟委員報告就像委員所了解的我們國家公園署下面的很多不同的這個國家公園署要做這樣的承載量的一個預估跟量化確實比較困擾那必須要結合相當多的專家那當然也希望委員能夠支持我們國家公園署的相關預算未來如果這個需求的話我們會往這方面來努力"},{"start":405.478,"end":420.092,"text":"但是我想這個因為是一個系統性研究是不是應該可以先撥相關的預算不然其實很難去討論科學化的沒有 跟委員報告一下系統性的研究如果你能夠標榜出來是哪一些方向我想委員不會要我們去數說這個國家工業所多少數目"},{"start":420.672,"end":445.869,"text":"但是國家公園署可以在氣候變遷的條件之下包括固碳或者是節能減碳或是對整體的我們台灣的這個氣候變遷的這個行動方案有幫忙這一點我們已經在努力處理當中而且我們會有這個Action Plan但是如果要做系統性的是屬於哪一類的標杆那恐怕我們還要再看一下包括聯合國或是其他世界各國在處理國家公園他們的一個量化的指標是什麼"},{"start":446.189,"end":450.585,"text":"如果這些有量化指標出來的話我們會朝著這方面量化指標的示範方向來進行"},{"start":451.513,"end":479.051,"text":"所以聽起來就是說我們可以參考國外的一個量化指標來進行嘛對不對對但是要我們要去我們要去尋找出來是哪些量化指標不能好像什麼都要從這個什麼天氣啦然後到這個地下水啦我們沒有那個能耐去處理這一塊因為我們今天講的還是回到山林保育跟推廣自然這個活動並行的一個狀態嘛推廣自然活動應該是我們只是樂觀其成就是未來運動部或者是交通部觀光署他們有相關的活動我們會支持"},{"start":480.512,"end":503.261,"text":"就是运动部它是活动的部分但是我们还是要知道说这个地方可以容纳多少怎样子类型跟人流这还是我们需要去掌握因为我们才能做到山林保育所以我们是不是可以往这个方向去做研究听懂了我想委员的方向我们会支持但是人流是可以控制但是未来如果有很多二氧化碳譬如说要在里面举行赛车F1恐怕我们无法认同"},{"start":503.581,"end":516.593,"text":"對啊對啊是啊是啊是啊我只是說我們是不是可以針對這一些我們到底可以做到什麼樣子的活動我們才能夠開放給運動部嘛因為如果我們沒有這些資料運動部也很難去發展相關的活動嘛所以這部分的研究是可以執行的對嗎是嗎我們來評估好謝謝你"}]}},{"id":"165130","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2ff629b72efa83a3bd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3cf88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:27:25 - 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慢慢請警政署長請啊 張署長委員好署長好 那個我這邊有一個陳情他是這樣子他要經過那個路口的時候其實他是綠燈 要往前走但是因為有一個行人違規穿越馬路後來因為那個穿越馬路後來很多人就扒扒之後那個行人就往後退然後往後退的時候那他們就往前行"},{"start":31.448,"end":36.153,"text":"就因為那個車子往前行跟那個行人的距離可能沒有到三個斑馬線那麼寬啦"},{"start":37.321,"end":63.574,"text":"就直接被開罰單說沒有禮讓行人那大家都覺得很不合理就是明明是那個行人穿越馬路而且他已經往後退了就是他不是要往前走如果他的方向和汽車可能會交叉的方向會發生交錯的話那當然汽車應該要讓可是是行人先違規在先後來也往後退但汽車就按照原本的路線前行結果被罰沒有禮讓行人"},{"start":64.144,"end":89.311,"text":"那我當然我知道這個交通法規問題我想問署長站在警方執法的角度你會不會覺得這樣的一個規定不太合常理我們就依照這個個案來做一個認定啦如果以剛才委員所講的那行政違規所造成的這個就是不理讓先人我覺得這可以申訴應該是可以從寬來認定申訴從寬認定但我覺得應該要有一個原則出來啦"},{"start":90.111,"end":111.861,"text":"就是說不然的話以後每一個人都是假設先被開了再申訴其實也是造成用路人的困擾那個距離是三個字幕如果像這種狀況是不是當時的修正剛好就是沒有看到他違規的狀況是屬於他不理讓行人的這個情形就是前半段沒有去看到這個情形只知道後半段這個車輛"},{"start":113.601,"end":128.729,"text":"策略不就是這個就是策略不理讓行人的部分如果他整個整串裡面這個全體看到我想這個單子應該是從觀點應該是不會開才不會開那你可能要跟你那個說明說如果類似的狀況就不要掀開嗎對我們會把這個個案會來做一個一個宣導來做一個教育"},{"start":136.553,"end":142.54,"text":"好 再請教一下因為昨天有一個大家滿關心的話題是在龍山市居然有人大剌剌的擺攤出來買證件"},{"start":145.047,"end":169.872,"text":"我們大家都知道說龍山市那邊有一些詐騙集團他會去跟有名收購個資這並不是新聞可是居然有人可以擺攤然後透過發現金的這樣的一個藉口然後跟人家講說你拿這個現金就要來引印雙證件結果警方最後去查的時候其實已經11個人交出雙證件了我覺得在光天化日之下居然可以做這樣的事情我不知道您那個署長您了解的狀況是怎樣"},{"start":170.595,"end":186.109,"text":"那這個案是小巨的萬華文明局這個接受到這個報案之後就有到現場去做了解那現在這個案子你是在偵辦當中我知道你偵辦當中我是說那個居然在光天化日之下大家都在圍觀耶那為什麼會發生這樣事所以我們一定會依法來偵辦當然是依法偵辦我的意思是說"},{"start":192.254,"end":215.129,"text":"這不應該發生這樣的事情嗎因為是光天化日而且大剌剌的在做這個因為犯罪的現象千奇百怪啦速度上面可能應該在加快吧是一定會加快再請教一下因為也是跟詐騙有關昨天有一個新聞說有一個詐騙集團他被檢方查扣了45億那個太子集團結果他的相關人等是70萬到50萬交保後來大家就覺得說"},{"start":221.94,"end":234.44,"text":"這扣了45億結果每個人是5萬到70萬交保那我不知道說警方因為這些都要你們去抓嘛抓了之後又被放出來而且交保金那麼低你們的想法是怎樣"},{"start":235.236,"end":258.994,"text":"那我想有關於羈押這個部分大概就是會覺得還輕嗎那我覺得應該是有努力的空間啦所以希望說這個要再重一點好 謝謝因為有時候這個檢方或司法的部分有時候我們的這個狀況大概會採取比較尊重的態度來做這樣的一個狀況好 那請那個部長請部長 謝謝加保釣"},{"start":267.133,"end":294.968,"text":"委員好部長我想請教一下現在行政院想要推那個自主都更嘛是對吧那自主都更用以利益良善就是說不要讓建商抽一手嘛可以減少行政程序嘛讓地主可以分回來的容積比較多應該是 目的是這樣嘛是但我看就是行政院所講的方案是講說以後假設地主自己成立一個都更會就不要找建商就找建金公司由建金公司來幫忙這新聞是這樣寫的啦我了解"},{"start":295.848,"end":321.763,"text":"未必我們會有多元的處理因為如果是找建金公司那意思跟找建商一樣所以這個自主都更講的我覺得蠻多地主會想要朝這個方向可是目前大家對於到底怎麼做程序上你的程序有沒有跟像危老都更已經進行一段時間大家已經有一個制式的程序可以走但自主都更到現在都還沒有一個比較具體的東西出來我不知道那個"},{"start":322.703,"end":350.334,"text":"國土署或內政部這邊什麼時候會針對這件事情做比較多的宣傳我們會我先跟委員報告一下我們現在針對那個都更危老條例在修正包括要把老宅延壽放到裡面去那所以都更裡面自主都更這一塊也要放進去未來就是一定要能夠保障想要都更的自然人而不是建商公司或者是一定程度的我知道這個我沒有人說不好啦我是說因為那個消息出來之後大家在關心"},{"start":351.031,"end":379.411,"text":"但是相關資訊比較少所以我覺得可以適時的就是適時的把一些重要訊息讓大家先知道可以先做準備然後第二個就是我們也是我們那邊選區發生的事情就是有一個區域民眾反映說他的房子被人家準備要做4D重畫他是沒有同意可是忽然間已經過半了地主過半然後他很驚訝後來他去詢問其他就是有簽同意的地主"},{"start":379.827,"end":400.06,"text":"結果很多地主說他不曉得那現在市地重劃有民眾就會質疑啦就說自辦市地重劃是不是在整合的過程當中法規訂的比較鬆所以才會出現這樣狀況因為他們都很緊張啊我的房子會不會忽然間就被拿去重劃那"},{"start":401.808,"end":429.826,"text":"報告委員因為事半事地重劃的話他的發起至少要十分之三的地主同意所以可能在一般的案子他們會先去徵求部分地主的同意不過在後續程序上一定還會再做一個公聽會座談會包含聽證讓其他的地主都知道一個重劃的過程才能去做一個核定我覺得最快可能要把關因為他當然是有程序啦可是來找我們陳情的民眾就很緊張就他就非常緊張"},{"start":431.482,"end":436.571,"text":"對對對 所以我這個部分就是有影響到民眾這個案子我們再跟委員請教一下好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165129","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165129","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d29972e0b99419b47fd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c2dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"13:21:05 - 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咱們整個計劃有抱怨在等院合定合定之後就可以趕快來執行這補責車補到跟輸到車再到哪裏去"},{"start":271.632,"end":291.205,"text":"這樣子真的是也是藉由這個機會謝謝那個部長跟署長啦台東確實他這幾年一直遇到這樣的災害我們其實都很想要來解決我們希望專跟地方一起來合作我相信這北省都很有感的感謝委員其實你提到這個部分我們大家都會非常重視而且"},{"start":291.772,"end":311.301,"text":"我們都盡可能因為最主要不要讓民眾的有淹水的這樣的一個憂慮尤其像這些地勢地窪長年需要有防水閘門甚至我們當天也鼓勵縣府或許在一些地勢地窪地區周圍有沒有要做滯洪池的規劃都請他們在做排水的檢討的時候要優先"},{"start":311.801,"end":322.789,"text":"又先納入考慮 好啦 謝謝署長署長謝謝 謝謝你很關心台東縣政府這邊的一些相關的案子那這邊再請部裡面來多多來協助台東縣政府來協助我們台東鄉親的問題那在這 這樣感謝部長跟署長感謝 謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委"}]}},{"id":"165128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2d0ddadcba4b4da7dd470ab4440ded08e6b4ef68dc504cb3c2dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:13:40 - 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把砂直接抽到外山頂周然後在外山頂周創造一條中央山脈中央山脈就可以防止海浪跑過來把外山頂周的砂都掛下去掛下去之後整個外山頂周就會持續流失所以大概這樣的一個固砂計畫"},{"start":78.687,"end":106.59,"text":"方向都有了但是不知道核定了嗎這一個整個的變更計畫這樣核定了嗎所以想要請教一下我們內政部蔡委員這是國家公園署我是不是請王署長跟你回一下好國家公園署謝謝委員謝謝委員對這個案子的關心那這個案子事實上因為剛剛委員有提到本來用布袋的那個三港的一個沙園然後改由東石系府那個沙園"},{"start":107.33,"end":133.202,"text":"那這個案子也感謝委員在今年年初事上有召開了一個協調會議那會議完以後要改變這個計畫那今年6月份我本人也主持這樣的一個跨部會的一個協商會議那目前來講的話固殺跟抽殺的部分是由水利署這邊來執行然後呢漁民的溝通跟補償的部分是由嘉義縣政府跟漁業署這邊來處理那這個整個處理的那個計畫事實上啊"},{"start":137.028,"end":166.581,"text":"我已经请两个单位把这个变更的那个计划报到我们署里面来汇整那这个汇整的工作已经在今年9月24号已经报到行政院去那行政院目前是交由工程会这边来请教相关单位然后大概工程会会再给行政院行政院大概就会核定下来那这个计划因为有一些变更所以这个计划会延到116年来执行那相关单位也就是说水利署"},{"start":167.281,"end":191.334,"text":"跟農委會約束這邊他們要去編編相關的意思116就是後年的意思啦所以事實上可能明年就是跟漁民溝通嘛因為我們在看下一張圖啦事實上你看外山頂洲你來看它的西側這裡有很多一格一格的這個如果你來看會有密集恐懼症這個不是有人在網路上亂講說這是太陽人板這不是太陽人板喔這是鵝尾這是鵝尾"},{"start":195.984,"end":201.469,"text":"這是我們要吃的蚵仔都來自這個當場的這片海也因為有外山頂座把它保護起來所以我們才有這麼肥美的蚵仔可以吃但是現在就是說因為整個東石的這個細湖因為外山頂座讓它形成一個細湖"},{"start":212.159,"end":216.32,"text":"正在嚴重的內陸化這個內陸化是很嚴重的 等於說未來我們企鵝啊這個空間都要變陸地了所以我們才說 外陝頂州的抽砂同時也是避免東石這一個細湖繼續內陸化 等於說一隻六艘船上來往上停舟"},{"start":232.566,"end":261.023,"text":"也是拯救了這裡的養蚵產業所以我們這個計畫整個方向都是非常正確的而且我們如果早一點跟漁民溝通他們可以在我們在工程期間他們先停止他們的這個蚵的蚵棚的這一個釋放跟養殖他們可以配合所以大家都支持現在就是查我們行政作業早一點這樣好不好好這部分行政業已經在處理了那這部分就是就要"},{"start":262.107,"end":271.61,"text":"營業部已經編組預算了小栗鼠這邊要編組預算那個固砂跟抽砂這個工程事實上是經費蠻龐大的沒有錯 當然就有預算的問題嘛但是在111年的時候蘇貞昌院長就有核定12億了嘛只是當時12億有很多是在做運輸費用那我是說 既然那個運輸費用就不用去卡那條啊就算了 算過來才抽算 還是應該要有錢啦"},{"start":287.876,"end":298.548,"text":"對啦 有啦 有啦 我就要當初開會的時候叫經濟部這邊要加緊這個腳步好 加緊腳步 好 那在第二個第二個議題 是不是我找一下移民署"},{"start":299.454,"end":320.736,"text":"那我直接跟部長講 說部長我們嘉義縣 我們那個移民署 這個移民署的嘉義嘉義的這個辦事處 基本上他就是我們郵局租的辦公廳舍啦 辦公廳舍所以你每次看 他跟郵局混用 然後移民署在這邊就好像這個空間已經很老舊 而且空間也很小啦"},{"start":321.369,"end":336.146,"text":"我們是不是看部長能不能適度的支持我們嘉義的這個移民署的這個辦公廳社是不是有機會來新建來蓋一個新的啦找新的地方找新的地方當然啦當然啦因為這是遊郊現在都在遊郊現在都在遊郊做的"},{"start":342.148,"end":345.331,"text":"但是我看很安全啦 不過如果是有這個使用啦 那就空間 因為它本身是遊郷的用的 空間是很小喔遊郷不可以讓我們用的是不是遊郷喔 遊郷我講一下就不可以讓你們用"},{"start":360.329,"end":385.794,"text":"委員對我們移民署這麼不好這樣的話就是如果有需要的話我請這個我們移民署跟這個嘉義縣我們移民署的同仁來商量一下第一個我們希望在比較多人口出入的地方對於很多移民業務上面包括很多新住民的協助會比較大那如果你要蓋新的部分的話移到邊邊角角當然不要到邊邊角角我的意思就是說我們事實上現在有一些產業園區那產業園區裡面還是會有"},{"start":388.53,"end":411.011,"text":"一些是屬於可以做一些聽色的就是說那個產業園區另外的空間事實上那邊就是產業園區事實上也是移工比較會密集群聚的地方所以我覺得事實上在那些空間來爭取我們可以來評估一下但是最好是現在就是國公有的建物"},{"start":412.353,"end":420.219,"text":"不要再重新去 因為你剛才叫我們停棄 停棄我們沒有錢啦但是國共有的建物要找新的承受空間我們可以試試看"}]}},{"id":"165058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2730c0b3956d63148d470ab4440ded08e372a46263f60850466fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:41:02 - 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市長也好的回應其實都是非常嚴肅的所以我現在要跟您提幾個問題在這邊您曾經答應過我的事情第一個我要說的是"},{"start":56.094,"end":78.676,"text":"在6月4號我在這裡質詢要求針對原鄉建築制度性的簡化當時部長您答應我說一個月之內你會完成兩件事情第一件事情競速訂定通案指導原則然後你要協助並且督導縣市政府依法訂定簡化管理辦法"},{"start":79.397,"end":85.756,"text":"並且要提供必要的技術協助第二個要整理現行的各地的建築簡化辦法的內容"},{"start":87.165,"end":116.266,"text":"然後進行會診對照然後作為地方參照與因應原鄉特殊情況依據部長五個月過去了通案指導原則在哪裡請簡短的說謝謝現在是六個縣市政府送上來已經完成但是其他縣市政府還需要努力這個是我們不夠努力的地方署長這好像是您來我辦公室的時候的回答跟今天部長的回答一模一樣有進度嗎"},{"start":116.806,"end":135.564,"text":"我跟報告因為我們後來有要求其他的縣市政府都要送上來但到目前為止他們到目前還都沒有把自己的東西拿了出來縣市政府不拿你就不監督了嗎我跟報告我們都還有持續開會請他們一定要拿出來請您休息一下我最後會做幾個結論謝謝繼續我要問的是"},{"start":139.528,"end":164.511,"text":"部長你還記得嗎你一上任的時候我們討論過原住民殯葬的問題所以你們從111年到114年度殯葬設施量能提升計畫我必須要再講一次這是攸關原住民民生需求非常關鍵的建設你當時你也同意可是呢這項計畫在明年度就消失了啊部長請你能夠說明為什麼"},{"start":167.203,"end":189.19,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們這個計劃本來是三年度那現在我們要提報行政院第二期計劃確實是從116年開始那中間的115年的話會保留原來111到114沒有完成的部分繼續完成好 請問一下部長114年沒有辦法完成的預算如果不夠"},{"start":190.33,"end":213.302,"text":"那你在一百一十五年又沒有編列預算又要等到一百一十六年而園鄉地區的所謂的殯葬設施量就這樣子活生生要停一年嗎我想不是這個部分跟委員報告一下這個殯葬設施本來在執行的時候就會有困擾那這個困擾也謝謝部長我都清楚知道因為今天時間有限"},{"start":214.202,"end":234.27,"text":"所有的困擾在地方上我們都非常清楚你也清楚我也清楚但是不能夠列為就是你115年不編列預算或者您可以告訴我您該怎麼解決處理報告委員我先跟委員再補充一下因為我們在最後一年的時候呢它的規模是達到6.5億"},{"start":235.931,"end":254.582,"text":"那因為6.5億還沒有辦法在114年度完成的話我們希望115年就把它完成所以我們是跳到116年那如果委員對這個有困擾的話我想我們會把相關的部分整理出來再跟委員做一下充分的報告好我希望我要這樣的一份非常重要的資料然後再來警政署"},{"start":255.402,"end":277.874,"text":"同樣的5月14號我在去年審查運算的時候我凍結你們的圍牢津貼運算為什麼的凍結呢我希望能夠改善目前我們警察內外勤夜班津貼差異非常大我認為這是制度性歧視問題8月8號我去函給你們進度然後你們告訴我說沒有會議記錄沒有檢討方案"},{"start":279.636,"end":286.888,"text":"請問一下我們警察同仁所謂的夜班津貼差異很大的部分怎麼處理"},{"start":287.844,"end":315.582,"text":"好 各位報告那這個部分我們在這個內委會有排一個專任報告那現在我們對原先是駐地外執勤或者備勤有出勤原先這樣規範0到6點每個小時100塊那我們現在是朝勤務方式只要是在這個省內裡面的值班或備勤都可以做這樣的一個人群因為他們也有一些危險性那目前我們是在"},{"start":316.963,"end":342.873,"text":"有關於這樣這樣的這個今天可能牽涉到地方要去做這些支付的問題所以我們在10月17號韓文給各相關的這個縣市政府來表示一件同不同意這樣的一個作為那目前這個資料在匯程當中那已經有電調我去去韓詢問進度的時候你們不讓我這樣知道還是你是最近才解決這些問題最近解決最近好最近大概上個"},{"start":343.753,"end":355.138,"text":"在6月5日做中央報告在6月5日報告裡面做解決的好 因為我5月14號就質詢你了是是是 這個已經有具體的一個結果了好 繼續 請問一下消防署"},{"start":356.977,"end":380.105,"text":"部長您剛剛有對於災防做了報告你們今天的報告也宣揚防救災的資訊整合跟應變的效能有提升而且這個提升是有成績的像是數位平台整合演練預警系統等等我要請問的時候0403地震跟花蓮夜色湖"},{"start":381.045,"end":399.75,"text":"當中的這個事件為什麼中央跟地方的橫向出了什麼問題然後長期以來地方消防人力長期不足署長你都知道然後我們地方的公務處缺乏智商的專業請問一下我在今天你們報告裡面沒有看到要怎麼解決怎麼處理"},{"start":404.384,"end":421.392,"text":"報告委員您所提到的就是0403的花蓮地震不僅僅0403事實上地震從921大地震到現在常年台灣就是地震帶第二土石流或者是當然淵石湖是第一次發生"},{"start":421.912,"end":437.855,"text":"但是我們有這麼多的災害在台灣發生過我們也不斷地從新聞看到不管是我們的地方的鄉親不管是我們的鄉親失去了生命這都是一而再 再而三發生的事情"},{"start":438.456,"end":456.683,"text":"然而這些事情就好像你今天報告說的數位平台整合演練這應該是應該經常要做的事情為什麼到這一次0103地震也好花蓮驗身胡藥同樣的災難同樣的畫面都不斷的在我們每一個人眼中出現呢"},{"start":458.959,"end":478.393,"text":"那你認為我們的防救災資訊整合還有應變的效能真的有提升嗎是 報告委員我想防救災的部分永遠有精進的空間那永遠有檢討的方向那事實上從0403到現在厭色湖的部分包括我們從中央氣象署或者是甚至國科會"},{"start":479.966,"end":506.012,"text":"有關數位科技上面的整合其實是慢慢在整合當中但是我想委員也非常清楚地震發生的時間跟災難形成的時間是非常一瞬間我們沒有辦法在預防撤離裡面做得很好的部分當然會在災害的防救或者是最後的復原重建上面的盡量來努力部長 抱歉時間到了我必須要打斷您我剛剛說了地震也好災難也好"},{"start":507.373,"end":522.609,"text":"颱風也好這些都是不斷複製的你剛剛說要有精進我們要精進等到什麼時候你現在看到我們所有的災難所有的畫面所有的人民的感受我們政府並沒有精進啊"},{"start":523.51,"end":537.259,"text":"一样很惨的画面不断的显露在我们的媒体当中不断的灾难的同样的痛苦不断的显现在我们的人民的身上但是我们也很努力在改进尤其是第一线救灾的人员所以"},{"start":540.401,"end":565.559,"text":"所以部長我要跟您說的這個問題都是一樣的問題我們真的沒有時間再等了我希望在您的任內之下能夠把我們台灣不斷有同樣的災難把它趕快好好的當然驗聖湖是第一次但是我們不可能有第一次地震那麼多然後山上的驗聖湖尤其是在原鄉地區多得不得了"},{"start":567.981,"end":596.05,"text":"所以這些東西是要怎麼樣一一呈現做報告的地震該怎麼處理土石流該怎麼處理堰塞湖該怎麼處理颱風該怎麼處理台灣就這麼一丁點大的地方難道我們還有不同的應變的問題嗎部長時間有限我現在要要求以下三件事情我希望部長您在一週之內提供完整的書面給我第一個我要請內政部跟國土署提出"},{"start":596.77,"end":614.475,"text":"原鄉建築簡化通案性指導原則還有各縣市建築簡化辦法彙整對照的表並且要說明目前進度跟預定的公告日期而署長不要再告訴我有一些縣市沒有辦法提供好吧第二個"},{"start":615.035,"end":644.61,"text":"针对殡葬设施量能提升的计划请刚刚已经部长说明了为什么115年度不续编但是我需要一份资料已经完成经费的分配清单请你提供然后告诉我们116年度是不是这个计划会重启并且要提供原箱代改善的清单第三个请针对警政署围牢津贴检讨虽然您刚刚已经说明了"},{"start":645.117,"end":673.6,"text":"也麻煩一下再提一份書面報告給我好嗎以上我的三點要求請問部長一週之內可以給我嗎可以我們國土署還有那個中理師跟警政署都會在一週內最後我還是要我最後還是要請部長提一個我覺得我知道這件事情會很辛苦麻煩一下整合內政部裡面的其他橫向的部會甚至於跟行政院報告說明"},{"start":674.195,"end":675.981,"text":"地震該怎麼處理艷澀湖該怎麼處理颱風該怎麼處理然後"},{"start":680.942,"end":705.938,"text":"土石流該怎麼處理這幾個經常在台灣發生的樣態的災難請告訴我們你們的SOP還有甚至於一般性的演練該怎麼處理可以嗎我們會來努力謝謝部長也謝謝委員希望能夠希望三個月可以給我嗎我們在月底的時候其實就是有個大型的研討會好我希望在你的任內這件事情可以完成"},{"start":706.838,"end":710.505,"text":"好嗎我希望在你任內有點辛苦但是這必須的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2cbb988bc0f907da2d470ab4440ded08e372a46263f60850466fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:32:47 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我們請內政部劉部長還有警政署張署長請保證請警政署張署長委員好部長好 署長好"},{"start":14.557,"end":32.444,"text":"部長就是我其實之前有詢問過有關台北車站喔我們之前有發現一個這個聖經社會的一個性侵案那蘇莉呢也在這個有回的一面書面報告給本席喔就針對這個本案鐵路警察局有在10月15號有召開一個聯防的會議"},{"start":34.901,"end":60.249,"text":"而且在16號有實地的會刊過其中他提出了有四點的具體措施包括優化巡邏鄉縣 增加定點巡守建立安全聯方 淨化區站的一個環境因為這四大的措施要落實我們台北站區的安全跟維護所以本席也特別跑去了台北車站看一下"},{"start":61.004,"end":85.626,"text":"所以我去看的時候呢發覺確實台北車站的內部你可以看一下照片以前柱子旁都是油明而且髒亂不堪尿騷味酒味刺激那現在變乾淨了那你可以看到以前這個南門東門外面其實都是油明也跟過去完全不一樣那請問部長這個台北車站的國門變得這麼乾淨警政署也迅速的解決問題"},{"start":87.129,"end":106.682,"text":"請問可以持續下去嗎那請問你會給警政署打幾分是非常謝謝委員的關切其實這件部分不是只有我們警政署還包括台北市警局或者台北市政府的社工機制那現在這個聯防機制如果他非常好的話我們當然能夠持續下去"},{"start":107.654,"end":136.419,"text":"不過接下來我要請您看一下您剛提到這還有台北市警察局我又再看了一下雖然這邊都沒有遊民可是你看下一張照片結果在北車南門旁的廊道遊民都在那裡這個北車南門旁你現在看得到的所以我們就發覺了一件事情就是在紅線之內的是屬於鐵路警察局在紅線之外的是台北市警察局那所以感覺上只是從鐵路警察局的範圍移到台北市警察局的範圍"},{"start":137.796,"end":149.081,"text":"那變成說就不是鐵路警察局的問題而是台北市政府的問題可是事實上不管是台北市警察局或者是鐵路警察局都是屬於警政署來管的所以這樣子的做法到底目的是什麼"},{"start":150.218,"end":168.178,"text":"跟委員報告這個台北車站這個地方最主要是油米的問題那不管是不是在鐵路線的地徑線或者台北市的地徑線這個最主要就是油米會不會在那邊出現那原先可能在大丁現在又到廊道這個地方"},{"start":168.698,"end":193.06,"text":"那根本解決之道就是要怎麼要處理來安置這些遊民的這個問題我想應該就是主管機關的設政單位包括台北市政府要來做一個處理那我們警察一定會來配合所以這個部分是不是等於內政部衛福部還有甚至交通部大家其實都要有一個這個對 就是真正的去跨部會去處理台北車站的這個遊民的這個問題"},{"start":195.422,"end":208.973,"text":"不管是他在大廳裡面或在廊道這個都是移轉而已剛剛部長也講的你們跟台北市政府有一個統一指揮跟聯合的一個勤務制度有嗎有我們可以看到這是警察的部分我當然知道是遊民的問題還有還屬於衛福部的相關問題但是你可以看到這是白天的狀況請問一下部長您看一下這個報告事實上"},{"start":226.584,"end":231.065,"text":"到下午的時候 晚上的時候您有看過這個報告嗎 部長有這個報告 你有看過嗎那請問是誰到現場實地勘查的就是剛看到的這些狀況你們回我的書面資料是說有到現場實地勘查就是我們鐵路警察局 跟特別市政府接下來我給您看看晚上的狀況"},{"start":254.625,"end":273.864,"text":"就是晚上遊民又全部到這些地方去了那這個狀況的話就變成說我們好像就日夜兩樣情啊就白天的時候是一個狀況晚上的是一個狀況所以您剛提到的就是說我們有一些持續管理的一個機制啊然後所以晚上是不是有專責尋守的機制啊跟白天是不是同一批人"},{"start":276.526,"end":291.957,"text":"現在目前的這個狀況白天他就離開大廳晚上就到這個廊道的這地方來做休息那這些東西白天把東西收起來晚上又放放起來我想這個根本解決之道就是要怎麼把這些遊民做安置"},{"start":293.438,"end":318.475,"text":"我觉得原则上事实上我们想大家都不希望只是做表面功夫白天看得到干净的台北车站到晚上的时候又变另一个状况晚上也有我们国际观光客也会有让大家看到我们的状况像这个部分就是说这个有一些不是警察职权的范围里面就是说台北车站"},{"start":320.436,"end":341.589,"text":"怎麼徹底能夠把這些遊民做一個一致就是不要在這個地方所以要各相關部會來做一個解決我想署長大概提到就是遊民的問題所以是不是請教部長是不是可以請部長正視這個事件是不是找衛福部 交通部等相關的部會跨部會召開一個會議然後徹底解決問題不要再讓國民成為耻辱的象徵我想這個不是只有跨部會的部分跨部會在政策上面當然都是對 當然"},{"start":348.513,"end":360.379,"text":"但是重點是台北市政府我也了解這個狀況那也有很多民代跟我們反映過不是只有台北車站包括萬華車站也是碰到這個問題我們是不是可以跟台北市政府也一起來協助解決這個問題因為夜間關門以後會有這種狀況台北市的警察局也是屬於警政署管的所以大家一起來努力好嗎我們來努力"},{"start":375.186,"end":397.851,"text":"然後另外再請教一下就是針對近日重大的一個社會案件就信義豪宅的雙失命案我們可以看到目前看起來應該是因為吸毒過量致死那我們現在可以看到目前雖然我們的毒品的這個查紀案件數下降可是您可以看到12歲到17歲反而是增加的增加的大概22.6%的幅度"},{"start":400.231,"end":418.683,"text":"所以我們現在因為這個很多青少年因為網路的關係所以他們事實上不管是在網路上都很容易買到這些毒品所以呢而且現在114年度青少年的初次吸毒年齡已經降到14歲以下那新興毒品也層出不窮所以呢"},{"start":419.703,"end":436.01,"text":"請問部長現在政府有進行跨部會的防治的機制嗎那是不是有實際在運作有有這個部分我們有這個跨部會的這個毒品防治會議是那請問一下不管是我們這個內政部警政署教育部法務部在預防的資源投入上是不是足夠"},{"start":436.926,"end":456.025,"text":"那这个部分就是对于这个少年毒品的犯罪不管是在卫福教育大概都是会投入这个是不是足够我刚刚请教您是不是足够我想应该是足够应该是中等计划大概有那如果足够照你说应该是我们的青少年的这个犯罪的这个"},{"start":456.405,"end":485.587,"text":"应该是会逐年的下降才对应该不是像这样增加22.6%对 那这个部分就是跟委员报告我们把它做一个分析这个部分大概都是这一个新型毒品的一个状况居多还有嘛 就是跨境嘛寄送毒这个毒包裹是相关的嘛所以这个部分我们大概就是会从几个面向就是当然在青少年代不管是在这个在教育面或者家庭面那我们解放的部分就是在在这个部分你们有没有跨境追查的一个能量"},{"start":486.287,"end":501.722,"text":"還是說還是用傳統的查記模式這個沒有問題就是說不管是在邊境或者是在跨境我們都有駐外的這些的聯絡官都會跟相關的這個國家做一個情形的聯繫跨境追查的能量夠嗎還是主要都依賴傳統的查記模式呢"},{"start":502.102,"end":522.731,"text":"那我们也不是传统查询模式现在就是多科技的多科技的侦查比如讲像我们有网路的这个巡逻对于这个网路上这些贩卖毒品的有网路的这些巡逻那有发现这些这个网站也跟这一个我们那请问一下署长现在你们有跨境毒品数据的侦查中心吗"},{"start":523.84,"end":546.939,"text":"跨境毒品的數據偵查中心目前有嗎我們刑事局有個毒防中心有一個毒品防治所以沒有所謂的跨境毒品的這個數據偵查中心嗎所以是不是可以請部長喔能夠整合像刑事局公安務署啊海巡署啊就是還有其他的部這個海委會那邊就是建立跨境毒品的一個查紀的偵查中心而且也要建立這個會議"},{"start":548.2,"end":567.249,"text":"情資的即時通報平台讓各部還有各個單位能夠迅速的了解更為包括這個平台都有建立起來包括關路署啦調查局或者是海巡署我們這個平台都有情資者的這個平台但是執行上非常重要因為我們看到青少年吸毒的問題越來越嚴重所以我們必須真的要從源頭去源不能只是打小販"},{"start":570.971,"end":588.021,"text":"結果放大盤然後治標不治本讓我們的青少年我們最主要的問題要查源頭對 所以如果這個部分我們大家能夠各部門一起來共享當然有共同的一個這個跨境的一個資源的一個平台大家即時通報事實上一定能夠減輕這樣的一個問題但是就要各部一起合作好的是 謝謝 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劉部長有請部長早安 我們今天是內政部的業務報告我繼續跟你討論這個住宅政策這個我們中華民國的住宅政策的核心到底是什麼"},{"start":21.207,"end":41.201,"text":"內政部長有想法嗎根據住宅法上面的規範當然它可能是我們在中華民國的社會福利體系的一環但是它要透過住宅的形式來呈現出來而不是一般的這個補助事項所以住宅法非常強調要照顧弱勢所以其實是圍繞著社會福利為核心的這樣一個政策對不對那但是這樣子"},{"start":42.611,"end":59.171,"text":"搞住宅政策也不是一天兩天啦各個政黨執政等等都有這樣一個邏輯去執政但是結論是什麼呢結論是現在年輕人不分不生嘛不分不生最大的壓力還是因為房貸不見得買得起房子根據內政部我不一定完全同意啦根據內政部因為小子化全部把這個責任掛在社宅的部分的話你先聽我講完嘛"},{"start":63.015,"end":71.862,"text":"最新的住宅租金指數9月再創新高109.27比去年同期上漲2.14%連續7個月達108以上租屋負擔率顯然過高那內政部不動產資訊平台114年Q1全國平均房貸負擔率為44.53%又比去年同季相比上升0.52%以直轄市來講是50.88%按照World Bank世界銀行的標準超過30%其實就已經是負擔不合理"},{"start":90.748,"end":112.675,"text":"那超過50%就住在六都的人來講負擔當然更加沉重也因此啊這個剛剛部長也講圍繞社會福利政策為核心的這樣一個住宅政策具體來講透過住宅來呈現就是所謂的社會住宅那其實非常多委員其實跨會期跨黨派都已經長期的關心大家都在看賴清德總統的社會住宅的新辦計畫請問到底核定了沒部長"},{"start":117.096,"end":125.827,"text":"還沒社會住宅新辦計畫啦你是說送到行政院的部分行政院的部分大概合訂兩項其中一項還希望我們內政部再多做檢討"},{"start":126.946,"end":147.058,"text":"什麼時候會全部核定能不能給出具體的時間表我們現在在依照這個總統跟院長的指示在檢討當中因為社會住宅的興建除了土地或者是資金取得以外現在要加入一個氣候變遷的因素所以這個因素加進來以後可能對於社會住宅的興建會有一些必要的一個檢討的方向"},{"start":147.915,"end":174.911,"text":"好 我們就繼續等待社會住宅的計畫核定來 我今天要跟部長做一下政策討論啦就是說跨國比較 我剛剛第一個問題問你我們台灣的住宅政策的核心是什麼你講的是社會福利 確實這個發租補貼啊 對不對 設宅等等然後有嚴格的照顧弱勢為優先的這個取向這大家都很清楚嘛但其他國家的概念 譬如我們新加坡為例新加坡的住宅政策其實蠻清楚的主導的單位叫做建屋發展局 HDB"},{"start":175.831,"end":189.675,"text":"那它的整個住宅政策的核心其實就是主屋政策嘛也就是一個相對來講可負擔住宅可以在市場上有一定條件上面的一個特殊性市場的可以接受轉賣的這樣一個狀況那它的主屋政策有幾個條件比如說這個家庭優先啊這個有結婚的啊單身的話要35歲之後才能申請啊而且只能申請二手等等那另外有限制嘛它只有所謂的這個地上權嘛就是建屋的所有權"},{"start":204.04,"end":231.297,"text":"然後有五年的閉鎖期如果要出售也只能出售給符合主屋申請條件資格者嘛所以它其實是有一個非常完善的一個配套那麼使用期滿之後要歸還政府政府在依 可能都更啊 社區等等的需求來做更新補償或者是重建你可以看到它的政策邏輯是非常非常清晰的嘛我有一個單位 我有一個要完整的政策我其他包含都市計畫 身份認定等配套是圍繞了這樣一個政策來做處理"},{"start":232.438,"end":241.5,"text":"那你就可以看得出來人家有一定的成效那請問這個台灣有沒有打算這個在住宅政策上更進一步脫離社會福利的思維呢 部長好 感謝委員因為新加坡跟台灣不一樣在於他97%都是國有地嘛所以他才可以去發展用類似在台灣來講他就類似設定地帳權的做法來做這樣的處理那當然也是因為他"},{"start":260.973,"end":271.978,"text":"從這個1965年左右就開始全力發展所以他到目前的數量其實是非常足夠來支應所以他已經進到第二輪所謂的都更的這個狀況所以他才可以用這樣子不斷的輪替去買賣那在台灣來講因為這個都才剛起步生產量權也才剛起步十多年"},{"start":278.996,"end":292.616,"text":"所以加上國有地也不是很多所以要達成這樣的輪替其實是有困難但是未來在社會住宅的興建上面其實或許可以用這樣的方式來做混合搭配這也是我們現在目前也在研議的方向之一"},{"start":293.444,"end":320.026,"text":"所以我們現在內政部的立場是我們在參酌國際的案例的時候我們要逐步來做政策創新還是基本上因為認定國土民情完全不同所以我們基本上不予採納要繼續本來的邏輯所以剛剛所講的所以像類似這樣的一個森林地安全跟社會住宅混合的方式現在也是我們目前有在研擬的方式包含的抱怨的計畫裡面包含這一項都有繼續在討論因為就本席的了解當初社會住宅的興辦計畫一直沒有辦法遲遲核定某一些層面當然是擔心財政的問題嘛"},{"start":321.667,"end":338.024,"text":"對不對所以換言之傳統以社會福利為導向這樣一個住宅政策的邏輯現在顯然這個陳峰不管是總統也好或者是行政院院長也好也許他有不同的意見所以這個計畫其實不能合定嘛對不對那我們要看到的是如果要嘛"},{"start":338.735,"end":357.198,"text":"要繼續做社會住宅這件事情你就大刀闊斧的趕快去做因為畢竟開出的支票幾年幾十萬戶等等那你如果有困難要調整有別的顧慮的話那你至少要讓我們的社會大眾看到住宅政策的調整方向這樣大家才能夠了解說這個政府持續的在關心居住政策而不是形成住宅政策的真空嘛"},{"start":357.899,"end":385.221,"text":"則部長或者是署長有沒有什麼要補充的嗎我想大方向來講因為像這幾年的這一個房地產市場我們都知道其實接下來空屋率會再一次創新高因為這幾年出來的房子非常多所以在某一種形式上我們站在減少這個碳排的一個角度來講我們應該鼓勵更多的房子釋出來做這個出租宅所以這一個包租代管的部分我們現在目前已經把它"},{"start":385.808,"end":405.76,"text":"上調他的一個標準上調他一個標準戶啦所以我們希望也從另外一個角度去擴充但是直接興辦社宅這件事情就像我剛跟委員所報告的我們會用其他創新的方法像類似跟這個生態安全的房子去做一個混合的一個方式那也做這個VOT概念的方式讓民間來"},{"start":408.797,"end":430.803,"text":"來興辦來經營那這些事情我們都已經有在朝你一些方向那當然政院的方向如果定調以後我們會及早對外來全部做說明我剛剛問你也是大方向你談了很多執行的細節當然都很好你有你的專業但我要問的是大方向我今天之所以提這個是因為很多地方政府現在已經開始在思考除了社會住宅之外的其他解方嘛比如說桃園市政府台中市政府在研擬叫做所謂的青年可負擔住宅了解"},{"start":431.448,"end":451.074,"text":"那青年可負擔住宅請問中央現在有沒有人在做這樣研究有沒有相關的想法跟政策方向應該這麼說啦因為今天最關鍵還是在於你的你能不能脫離土地法民法相關的一個限縮因為對於土地來講土地若一旦是出售的你一旦要能夠收回"},{"start":451.553,"end":480.059,"text":"其實他相對上在民法在土地法上面有一些限制所以這一點會是我們在後續在考慮的重點今天不可能有時間討論到政策細節但我要問的是大方向也就是說現在地方政府拋出了這樣一個構想其實在網路上也好輿情的回應上來講也好其實很多年輕人對於這樣子的一個政策他心裡是有所期待的那當然嘛你現在談執行的問題就擔心說啊你法規的禁核啊等等啊中央地方不同調大家其實在觀察而且在在擔心的是這樣子一個事情"},{"start":480.439,"end":502.034,"text":"那我今天的質詢我主要就是要問你現在中央到底有沒有把這樣子的一個可負擔住宅的這樣一個政策納入你現在整個住宅政策的一個方向一個推進的計畫裡面 有沒有類似森林地安全住宅這個就是屬於可負擔的項目之一如果有那有沒有具體的期程跟地方政府對話的機制我是認為這個應該提早處理其實像桃園它已經放在"},{"start":503.231,"end":526.188,"text":"那個都市計畫桃園市的適應細則裡面那已經有跟我們在進行相關的溝通已經有在討論嘛 甚至有討論自治條例或什麼的對 像彰化也有在跟我們討論這個事情所以中央基本上不會反對地方政府很努力的來做創新跟往這個方向的思考不會 我們都會大家在一個可行的方式底下來支持地方政府做這樣的一些創新那中央"},{"start":527.624,"end":547.301,"text":"針對法規相關等等的有沒有提供一些相關的意見因為現在大家最擔心的是如果地方先走有一套完整的東西那中央萬一不同調呢對不對萬一不愉快呢對不對大家總會有這樣子的一個顧慮嘛會不會有這樣的問題各位委員報告其實過去像這個南投彰化雖然都有不一樣的做法但是我們到最後還是會尊重他們的一個方式啦"},{"start":547.799,"end":577.268,"text":"其實那個只是在建屋未來的認定上是有所不同的這個我希望喔那既然你講說其實政府是有這樣中央政府也有往這樣的方向來做思考那是不是請這個內政部這邊針對青年可負擔住宅中期住宅等等的相關你們目前做了哪些研究目前規劃的一些方向有沒有一些預計的一個期程提供一份完整的資料來做對接嘛然後避免說也許地方跟中央默契不一樣好事又變壞事我是擔心這個事如果大家方向其實是一致可以來溝通一起來促成這件事情"},{"start":577.728,"end":594.424,"text":"那這個政策它才能夠達成一定的效果嘛所以我再次提醒人家新加坡是有一套完整的政策核心邏輯那現在既然涉財的部分你可能要有修正你當然還是會繼續蓋我不會否認這個事情但如果要有所修正我們也要看到另外一個核心政策的形成跟相關配套的安排可以嗎好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長辛苦了好 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有請部長還有移民署署長請保證請移民署署長委員好部長好 署長好想要請教一下我們在處理114年度移民署稅出預算時就已經點出現行司法同意制度有許多缺失"},{"start":30.578,"end":57.098,"text":"迫切需要改善的问题但是在115年度的預算書裡面針對移民署就同意人員政策提出的進進措施並將成果等的資訊定期公布於官方網站這項內容的辦理情形報告還是一片空白請問"},{"start":60.802,"end":76.791,"text":"請問你們的精進措施還有成果在哪裡有在做嗎報告委員 委員好那其實在我們移民署的通譯制度裡面我們這個通譯人才資料庫是在民國98年建制"},{"start":77.355,"end":99.826,"text":"但是在109年的時候我們有做一個精進的方案那這個精進方案裡面其實增列了兩個比較重要的一個措施第一個就是線上需求端的一個邀約還有就是這個滿意度的一個回饋那目前整個資料庫的建置裡面現在我們同意人在資料庫裡面的人才"},{"start":100.475,"end":126.573,"text":"名單大概有接近1400人那其中以越南語跟印尼語的同意資料人才是是最多的那這個這個包含了22種語言那22種語言裡面就是越南跟印尼語是最多的那大概目前在線上端去申請使用權限的包括機關法人跟個人大概有1600個左右那"},{"start":130.424,"end":153.019,"text":"在這1600個左右目前為止我們所掌握到的這個查詢的次數大概7800人次左右啦所以其實在整個的這個部分我們會去做一個處理那另外有關通譯人才的部分我們又有去區分大概有三類第一個就是司法通譯因為司法通譯他需要的語言包括法令的這個"},{"start":155.175,"end":157.418,"text":"這個名詞他必須得是謝謝署長我問我是讓你讓你說啦但是我問東你回西我問這個問我們看到的是這個這個你完全沒有回你回的"},{"start":170.876,"end":196.358,"text":"你回的是我要問的 因為這個我要跟你們所知所以你們回的就是剛才你講的所以我跟你講說你講的東西移民署在民國98年開始建設一個就是通譯人才資料庫是你說的並且在109年7月也做了一次功能升級的改版"},{"start":197.719,"end":209.887,"text":"不查不知道查了嚇一跳這樣的網站使用相框像你說的這改版以來5年的時間累積有登入同意人員是1300"},{"start":212.574,"end":215.898,"text":"有38人需求單位有375個有1591人使用全線在線上要發出邀約同意的服務446件其中呈案的只有56件"},{"start":233.877,"end":239.94,"text":"署長你每年都補助在各個學校限制政府民間團體開辦的統一人才"},{"start":245.407,"end":257.593,"text":"一個縣一般最少有30個人我們22個縣市不要說學校民間團體22個縣市一年也是有660個人5年也要超過3000多人但是你們這邊不到150個人只成功媒合了56件有可能嗎實際上的需求這麼少"},{"start":274.241,"end":297.956,"text":"我們講的是這個這個網站的功能不好啦是想要了解是這個部分完全不可能只有說1591人報告委員我這裡要跟委員做一個報告其實我們那個同意人才資料庫其實就是一個平台那平台其實譬如說"},{"start":298.666,"end":313.603,"text":"我是警察機關我找了一個一個同意人才我邀約他之後然後他們自己會加LINE他就不會再透過這個平台再去做線上的邀約所以他們就直接打電話了啦所以他那個次數相對會比較少如果這個平台沒有用的話你們還要從開始監製就花了150萬"},{"start":320.671,"end":321.393,"text":"109年又花改版也花了450萬保固期滿後從112年到現在每年"},{"start":331.979,"end":354.71,"text":"維護費要花了43萬陸陸續續花了就是700多萬你說這不好啊 不好你還要去維護所以請教一下你對這樣的成果滿意嗎你覺得說這樣的支出移民署沒有說去查這個同意的人員的需求這個資料庫的心得我們要的是"},{"start":355.89,"end":376.89,"text":"這個資料庫你要用的當初的目標還有效果是什麼啊不是你講了就就叫別人去用啊這樣子你還要維護這個這個資料庫要幹嘛報告委員其實當初建立這個資料庫它一定有它基本的一個需求的一個花費然後這個我就說這個是一個媒合平台"},{"start":377.438,"end":397.034,"text":"但是媒合平台之後譬如說我這個承辦人我耳後我都已經加在了我就固定找這個人嘛因為配合的很好所以這個媒合的次數會逐漸的減少但是你不能把它廢掉因為這個平台在這裡會有新進人員又再進來他還是會透過這個平台再去找到相關更多的一個同意人員"},{"start":397.794,"end":404.979,"text":"署長我覺得你講這個真的是不是啦你說有多少人去培訓如果你每年培訓那麼多人你要把這些資料把它納入資料庫讓更多人在這邊找你不能說別人找去了我這個資料庫還是要但是維護但是沒有人找沒關係"},{"start":420.769,"end":442.293,"text":"再去做翻譯也要死啊對不對 你說這個資料庫這樣子就是有需要有需要你要把所有的資料要提供進來當大家有需要的時候也可以找你不能說我私下找了我就用這個這個資料庫好像的功能還是要但是呢 功能不好 也功能不是要維護因為資料庫裡面人才有1400人啊"},{"start":445.754,"end":447.716,"text":"資料庫裡面有一千四百人 五年一千一百人 大家要死啊 要走啊不是這樣子 那不是次數 那是登錄的通譯的人才資料庫裡面有一千四百人 二十二種語言"},{"start":460.543,"end":463.404,"text":"對啊 但是只有這樣子 你覺得很好嗎效果很好嗎人太少了 因為不可能五年只有這樣啦所以我們是在 還有我們看到的就是這個部分我們希望署長真的要把這個資料庫真的是資料庫不是生鏽的資料庫啦我們要的真的是要去做好所以剛才我跟你講的 要的是兩件事情"},{"start":489.858,"end":515.485,"text":"移民署在12年底有制定一份統一制度精進事辦計畫這一點提出問題就是很多的問題洋洋灑灑12項的內容寫得很漂亮但實際上成效在哪裡我們一直沒有看到不管是解凍預算的統一人員政策精進成果報告"},{"start":516.665,"end":531.62,"text":"無消無息或者在城校趴到就是趴到地板上的同意人員資料庫已經新鮮了就連今天內政部提交到我們內政委員會來的業務報告"},{"start":536.818,"end":565.117,"text":"沒有看到同意的問題真的非常令人懷疑政府對於改進同意制度的能力和決心所以我們要呼籲我們內政部實落還有落實實際落實真的是這個資料庫還有說我們這樣子的方案保障在台新住民的權益的承諾"},{"start":566.677,"end":584.223,"text":"我們要我一定會強力的監督這一塊還有就是統一制度的精進事辦計畫的辦理情形把關該計畫動資的預算支出所以署長你剛才講有需要"},{"start":585.223,"end":594.068,"text":"也有要去改進所以我希望你在一個月內一個月內提出統一的制度改善經濟報告兩個就是因為我看到剛才的是空白你沒有提出謝謝委員讓我補充一下是好不好謝謝委員那其實在整個統一制度裡面我們在112年有一個統一制度的一個經濟方案"},{"start":609.617,"end":613.159,"text":"他是每兩年期會做一次的檢討那在今年的12月31號會把事辦的這兩年的一些狀況我們在會提出來做精進在所謂同意人才的培訓認證管理跟任用這個部分我們會來做持續的改善那委員剛剛所提提出來的部分我們將相關那個檢討精進的這個報告我們也會在"},{"start":633.224,"end":636.946,"text":"委員要求的期限之內我們會再把資料送給委員還有這個資料庫要有用的資料庫好不好我們要把所有全部你們補助或者各縣市有辦理的培訓通譯人員要把它全部納入進來讓大家才會找得到人來去翻譯"},{"start":653.798,"end":657.242,"text":"事實上有很多地方是找不到翻譯你們這個地方又沒有去改善又沒有去改進就停留在那一邊所以這個資料庫大家都覺得是生鏽大家也沒辦法因為你拍去翻譯也沒有拍"},{"start":670.494,"end":678.821,"text":"大家要找到裡面的人數有限所以大家就沒辦法去配合所以變成這個資料庫變成是生鏽的資料庫所以大家才不會去用才會人數那麼差所以這個兩個部分我希望署長要去做好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2d8628e72aeb1eb55367e5b5a2f2752d0462d9096eb7c9b6724c937f9f25b3ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:32:33 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請陳秀寶召委謝主席 請黎原部長好 有請部長"},{"start":19.282,"end":33.99,"text":"常委員你好部長早安部長昨天我們影視界有個很重大的好消息就是有電信業者跟文策院還有韓國娛樂公司電視台共同宣布成立兩個基金雙基金那總共的規模超過了15億元那主要是要力推台灣影視內容產業化與國際化"},{"start":42.014,"end":45.876,"text":"部長 這個合作是我們台灣影視業影視產業的這個重要的里程碑也是過去教文委員一直都要強調說我們文化部這邊我們需要跟國際合作所以這個部分本席是給予肯定而且是非常支持"},{"start":59.662,"end":74.049,"text":"我想請教目前這個雙基金的合作呢我們文策院這邊投資的比例跟金額是多少那我們預計要合作多少作品或者說我們有沒有預計要上架多少作品那上架的國家跟區域有沒有限定我們有沒有先規劃出來"},{"start":76.145,"end":105.34,"text":"非常感謝委員問這個問題其實我們不只雙基金我們還有好幾個類似的基金在這次發表然後這個努力大概花了好多年才達成我是不是請我們董事長給您仔細的報告好 請董事長跟委員報告那個比例的部分在這兩支雙基金裡面大概都是穩積面大概占百分之三十左右它有的多一點有的少一點然後最多因為穩積面都不能超過百分之四十九所以在另外一支因為有兩支啦有一支雙基金我們好像是占到四十九那前面那一支應該是三十"},{"start":106.55,"end":135.282,"text":"那我们预计会合作多少作品跟上架多少作品我们现在在作品我们没有限量作品没有说因为我们在这个是一个投资的基金所以他们我们是基本上是共组一个公司下去投所以我们投的作品可以无限多但他的最重要的关键性的好处是说我们让专业第一个让专业界第二个让企业界进入这个基金所以他们都所以他们变成说可以就专业的部分来做这个挑选"},{"start":135.842,"end":154.714,"text":"所以我們不是以數量來看是以內容來選對它基本上內容來我們只有跟那我們上架的國家跟區域目前有沒有規劃朝哪幾個區域去發展就發展的規劃的部分來說基本上是全球沒有哪裡是不要去的那但是會因為合作的夥伴會有不同的"},{"start":155.654,"end":180.473,"text":"像度譬如在类型电影的部分我们可能会往东南亚然后在动画的部分我们可能会往日本在爱情片的部分可能会往韩国所以不同类型的产品我们推的地区会不一样没错是这样那我想有这两个基金的推力我们台湾影视的作品一定更能在国际上得到更多的肯定我们还会持续发布的我们今天还有虽然我们今天在这里但我们今天还有新的所以还有新的好消息这样子好 谢谢那我想请教部长哦"},{"start":181.934,"end":195.827,"text":"另外我們文化部今年有啟動大航海計畫第二個梯次是要新增國際旗艦組要鼓勵跨域或可以發展IP的這些企業投入希望透過吸引國際資金還有國際人才來進而促進更多的商業競爭與藝術價值的台灣的定義"},{"start":205.296,"end":214.067,"text":"那這些都是非常重要的國際合作的手段國際旗艦組我們這個補助會延續多久我們EGO要補助多少作品"},{"start":215.185,"end":240.558,"text":"目前我們以我們所編的預算我們想3年大概補助10部左右我們是把它擺在一般的補助裡面多一個旗艦組然後我們算一算我們的能量大概3年有10部左右大概最高到1億然後最低大概5、6千因為我們另外一個輔導金最高是5千萬我們等於再加一樣是比5千多到1億左右這樣的一個能量"},{"start":241.499,"end":260.068,"text":"就是因為這樣的預算規模那我們的期間是三年嘛那以預算規模來講我們預計是可以有十部的作品得到補助那本席這邊要強調其實我們台灣影視音走進世界是文化外交一個很重要很重要的一個途徑所以本席這邊對我們文化部"},{"start":261.129,"end":289.444,"text":"在115年的业务有很大的期许以我们过去的成绩我也相信未来一定可以很亮眼接下来我要持续的来请教部长我们在115年度编列预算完成之后部长表示说希望以文化团结台湾但是文化是融合在我们生活之中经济文化 教育文化 运动文化及生活文化本席这边要问的是为了促进多方面的文化活动及推广"},{"start":289.844,"end":315.853,"text":"文化部是不是應該要跟各部會來橫向合作我們更積極的建立不同面向的活動這邊舉兩個例子像第一個像遠洋合作就是我們林遠部長跟李洋部長我們兩個部文化部跟運動部我們透過體育文化文化體育這個合作讓人來在體育中去結合在文化中來結合體育這也是我們因為我們民眾也覺得很新鮮"},{"start":316.653,"end":343.853,"text":"那近期運動部他有發布了青春動自健跟文化禮經的加碼方案這也是遠洋合作的首發那未來是不是還會有類似具體的方案跟其他部會的合作有 其實我三任以來我覺得我們部會跟部會之間有很多合作譬如說我們每推出一個計畫都是跟不同單位合作譬如我們推出一個歐洲台灣文化年就需要外交部幫忙"},{"start":345.234,"end":364.925,"text":"由我們來主導這個活動但是外交部在各個國家都有一些場館幫我們來做百大文化基地必須要跟農業部還有觀光署等等等等所以本身我們跨部也有規就是自己有規劃這樣跟跨部會的是 我們很多活動幾乎都不是單獨在做"},{"start":365.665,"end":374.748,"text":"其實也有民眾建議說文化部是不是可以透過跟博物館串聯與運動部一起辦比如說路跑或是參觀集點的這些活動讓我們文化部跟運動結合也希望說像這樣民眾的這樣的建議我們其實可以參考看看"},{"start":384.352,"end":409.02,"text":"那第二個部分就是剛才部長您說的文化部跟外交部合作的這個歐洲台灣文化年那外交部林佳龍部長說2026年還會延續那未來呢我們文化部這邊如何持續跟外交部合作我們要如何讓歐洲台灣文化年成為一個品牌能夠讓我們台灣的外交實力在國際間可以遍地開花部長您的看法"},{"start":409.76,"end":429.639,"text":"这点委员问得很好就是我们这几年文化部在欧洲几个据点我们派出去的同仁都非常努力在短短的几年内我们几乎争取到每一次的活动里面都有以台湾为主题或以主题国这样一个名称所以我们的能量非常大所以外交部长就来找我们说"},{"start":430.8,"end":447.627,"text":"可不可以一起來辦這個那這次蠻成功的當然包括故宮博物院剛好那個國寶要出國這樣我們就把它連在一起那這次活動非常成功就是因為累積了過去的能量然後我有個最大的發現就是歐洲對台灣的"},{"start":449.288,"end":470.98,"text":"興趣還有尊重像我們沿路會遇到一些打壓可是都非常順利解決就是因為法國也好捷克也好他非常懂得怎麼尊重我們台灣的文化所以這點蠻值得繼續做這個真的也非常感謝文化部長久以來的努力打下了這些跟歐洲許多國家他們合作的基礎"},{"start":471.86,"end":492.85,"text":"那在這邊我就要問到了吳浩波今年的預算呢這個國外旅費的部分在野黨刪了六成這也導致吳浩波許多業務停擺那其中吳浩波你們自己本身就取消了蠻多個國家出訪交流的計畫因為你們要把這些有效的這些預算呢"},{"start":493.45,"end":509.238,"text":"集中到你們這次像到捷克到歐洲的這一趟我知道你們刪掉了取消了有像美國及加拿大地區駐外文化交流的這個勢導業務還有文化經貿政策的研究國際交流以及印太地區"},{"start":510.259,"end":524.878,"text":"文化的這個訪視交流計畫還有東南亞地區的駐外文化交流業務這個你們都取消了因為礙於經費的關係所以你們必須要把這些預算都留到我們部長這次到歐洲到法國去"},{"start":525.399,"end":541.158,"text":"那像刚才您提到的我们到法国的时候虽然中途有出现中国抗议的这样子的事情但是法国代表不为所动还是跟我们续约了我们有签到5年的这个续约这个我们历史已经有30年之久的台法文化奖"},{"start":542.159,"end":563.673,"text":"所以說部長林也說了是法國選擇了我們所以顯見在國際文化的交流上出訪到各個國家跟其他國家的代表正面對面對面的交流是有很重大的意義是非常重要的那對於各國的這個國際關係也是有非常正面的這個促進就是很正面的效果"},{"start":564.193,"end":587.889,"text":"所以部長您是不是也覺得親自出訪對於推動文化交流是很必要的那是一個重視跟誠意是我其實出去的機會去年是日本今天是法國跟捷克我都會把自己排得滿滿的拜會所有可能發聲合作的單位那也創造了很多過去沒有過的比如說我去日本就"},{"start":588.909,"end":605.019,"text":"產生了一個爵士樂從來沒有邀請過台灣去參加爵士樂團那今天我去法國直接見到法國的電影中心的負責人然後他們就他就跟我講說他們很想投資台灣的VR跟AR那剛剛"},{"start":606.5,"end":630.696,"text":"TCCF刚刚才办的时候那个法国电影中心带了80个人来这在过去都不太可能的就是一个法国的团带了80个人来台湾参加一个台湾办的这样TCCF就表示说他们在这边看到了很多山鸡那这些都是大家长期以来努力的所以我一直觉得我们被砍掉的预算其实砍得少少的可是就影响我们很多这样"},{"start":631.107,"end":645.807,"text":"其實非常的可惜就是說如果我們有更充裕的預算在我們的這個文化交流的方面國際的文化交流我們可以做更多但是因為預算有限所以你們只能濃縮在每一趟出去的行程盡可能的"},{"start":646.087,"end":663.762,"text":"多去拜會 多去參訪 多去交流把能夠用的時間充分的利用所以本席在這邊也要呼籲其實明年度的預算希望在野黨不要再無視行政機關的要求因為這個真的會很嚴重的影響到台灣國際交流以上 謝謝部長謝謝謝謝陳書寶 趙偉部長請回"}]}},{"id":"165016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d28f5a8a5501f55668367e5b5a2f2752d0e98bf0b6cf7b5104c6ac7d3ce2a727f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:44:30 - 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謝謝主席 有請李部長請李院部長"},{"start":18.167,"end":40.438,"text":"李委員你好部長好我想首先要跟您再次恭喜鐵海映這部動人的劇集榮獲了五項大獎那我想創作者用實力跟行動來證明身在民主的台灣戲劇可以不為任何人而做那我們同時享有"},{"start":41.792,"end":57.91,"text":"回首榮耀跟不堪的自由部長您上任到現在也一年多了不知道這一年來你會不會覺得自己的生命歷程似乎跟國民黨對藝文產業的介入脫不了關係"},{"start":59.973,"end":76.371,"text":"年輕的時候您在中營受國民黨文工會的內容審查到現在擔任文化部長您所支持的一些形形色色的文化內容也會遭受國民黨跟他的附屬組織的政治攻擊"},{"start":77.572,"end":105.629,"text":"那在我們才剛經歷過這個藍白預算之亂中那文化部對作品與藝文團體的補助又或者是文策院作品的投審程序都成為藍白兩黨惡意攻擊的目標那我想這些立委我想必須可能需要讓部長替他們上一課歷史課才能明白我們今天這些創作自由是得來多麼的不容易"},{"start":106.349,"end":134.631,"text":"那是不是可以請部長簡單跟我們分享一下過去您在中影那一份電影企劃書寫完後是如何遭到這個層層的篩選跟審查那另外大家耳熟能詳的光陰的故事這個企劃書是由您來撰寫那當初這個企劃書為什麼必須要表揚政府必須讓它表面上是一個政策片部長可不可以簡單回答"},{"start":135.302,"end":151.515,"text":"好 但是那個因為時代的關係以前是一個威權時代所以黨政軍是同一個單位在控制的所以那時候要拍電影的話一定要由國民黨的專案電影公司拍它擁有最大的資源擁有十多家戲院擁有片場 擁有創意場"},{"start":153.456,"end":174.367,"text":"那如果你要拍電影必須進去那他進去當然因為他是國民黨機構他層層要把關到最後到文工會的編審不同意的話這個案子就不能做所以那時候我進綜藝的時候大概30歲不到有人告訴我說你不要進去因為你什麼都做不成因為你的職位很低你的案子會一直送上去都被打槍"},{"start":175.788,"end":194.217,"text":"但是運氣非常好就是那個時候電影剛好不景氣給了我們機會於是我們就送了一些我們想做的案子那跟過去那個愛國片啊宣傳片完全不一樣的一群就是後來所謂的台灣新浪潮就是回到對台灣社會的關心對政治的批判那"},{"start":195.595,"end":223.445,"text":"當然我們就在那邊被追殺了因為後來我們拍出那個兒子大玩偶這個國民黨要把它禁掉但是因為民間很多聲音救了我們所以我很深的感覺就是當這個潮流當民主的潮流往前進的時候誰也阻擋不了所以我們在國民黨時代經歷的過程以後我們終於自己闖出一條路來讓台灣的電影走向國際這一點我覺得很欣慰換句話說"},{"start":224.545,"end":251.447,"text":"在任何一個時候我們只要把持自己的理想往前走那我們所遇到的問題還是會克服我必須要講預算的審查在我們原來教育委員會是很順利的我們只刪了兩千萬所以我不忍心去抱怨在我們教委委員會中的在野黨因為他只刪兩千萬真正的問題出在到大會之後他隨便亂刪譬如說公共電視23億"},{"start":254.414,"end":273.063,"text":"我覺得我們之間不是敵人吧我們執政黨跟在野黨是在同一條船上所以再來就是預算會期了我想部長是不是在這裡要有一些提醒跟呼籲我其實一定會努力的解釋就是捍衛每一筆預算我很想要講的是"},{"start":274.272,"end":287.633,"text":"执政党也好 在野党也好没有人会永远执政这个文化是属于大家的我们不是敌人嘛我们敌人在别的地方我们都不是敌人那你为什么要打压台湾的文化这点我一直没有懂"},{"start":288.393,"end":306.816,"text":"了解好那我想再來實現關係我再來跟部長請教AI的問題大家可能想說AI這個科技問題怎麼會來問文化部長那實質上AI的發展就是它的基礎就是文化內容那它不僅牽涉到如何保障著作權的問題"},{"start":307.577,"end":322.917,"text":"那長遠而來他又是台灣文化軟實力的展現那也是要如何影響全世界的問題所以我們翻開我們即將要審查的這個文化部的預算書我們就會發現明年度的預算他新增了許多"},{"start":323.457,"end":343.693,"text":"過去我們沒有的AI的相關的業務的應用所以很可見就是說AI的時代已經來臨所以文化部要拿出什麼樣的策略來因應變得非常重要那我們放眼國際那個美國的紐約時報跟日本的朝日新聞還有日經新聞他都紛紛向AI的公司提出侵權的告訴"},{"start":344.734,"end":348.477,"text":"可見AI新技術的到來連帶也為文化內容產業帶來一個新的衝擊新聞媒體可能是一個最顯著的案例AI像一個雙面刃它正面意義上當然它在網路網際網路上有更廣泛的促進資料跟文化內容的共享"},{"start":366.212,"end":393.188,"text":"可是在負面的意義上他就有侵權的疑慮必須要被妥善解決那在文化部的立場我們該要如何推動AI發展才能夠跟世界分享台灣文化內容的同時保護這個台灣創作者的權益不被侵害又或者這樣講說辦理AI的相關應用業務的時候文化部要怎麼確保自己不會成為帶頭侵權的政府單位"},{"start":394.807,"end":416.017,"text":"這一點就是我們已經在今年公布了一個文化藝術應用生成式的AI指引是透過這個指引告訴所有創作者他在怎麼樣在他的創作中要用AI生成又避免他的侵權另外我們本身由文化部提供給這個速發部還有國科會這個"},{"start":417.998,"end":446.915,"text":"主权AI的内容已经提供了非政府开放资料大概有165项属于政府的开放资料有370项第二波已经开始进行到第二波盘点在这个盘点过程中我们几乎是每一笔都要拥有著作权或者没有侵权本身我们在规划很多国际趋势这个部分在我们未来的文化产业中也会用到的AI目前在研究中"},{"start":447.395,"end":476.356,"text":"是 好那像今年九月包含公共電視 華視 中央社 央廣 圓明台各家電視台公視台與台他要攜手來這個攜手來啟動這個AI這個Chatbot的這個合作計畫那等於說他是用大公廣的概念來集結這個台灣聚公信力的這個媒體機構來共同建置資訊可靠的AI的聊天機器人那所以這個"},{"start":477.376,"end":499.075,"text":"當然這個就是提高可信資訊的這個傳播力那也可以加速公共媒體的數位轉型當然這個是一個很重要的示範效應所以這個AI這個確保的這個計畫我充分反映出這個公共媒體存在的價值跟意義那順利的話好像是2026的年底可以完成"},{"start":500.276,"end":522.528,"text":"我想無論是開發又或者後續的維運我想都需要經費所以自公共電視法修正之後拿掉這個捐贈經費長年來的上限之後那我想確實供廣集團他必須要有一定程度的營運的彈性那可是常態性的捐贈一直維持在修法前的9億"},{"start":523.709,"end":548.795,"text":"那我想請問部長你是不是跟胡董事長有探討過究竟這個常態性的捐贈要如何設定才能合理其實說來蠻悲哀的就是這個9億本來是個天花板拿掉之後還是9億然後大家聽到的其他20幾億是因為有台育台的8億合照台的6億還有台灣plus6.5億好前瞻計畫等等"},{"start":549.435,"end":570.789,"text":"所以原來在公共電視所能夠用的錢還是9億我非常感謝委員提到這件事因為我自己在大公管集團工作過公共電視在1998年成立到現在一直是用這樣的錢在工作包括增加多少人然後多少工作所以我當然希望他能夠在委員支持下我們提高這個天花板"},{"start":573.564,"end":594.025,"text":"最後30秒 主席不好意思還是要跟部長探討一下已經講到都會背的中人紀念堂轉型的問題我想轉型正義確實是記憶跟遺忘的鬥爭在具體落實轉型讓大家集體意識到國家的力量去紀念獨裁者是多麼的不公不義"},{"start":596.327,"end":614.871,"text":"會一直講 一直講 一直講 當然我覺得這真的非常重要那部長 感謝喔 就是說現在三軍儀隊已經撤出中任建黨的堂體喔那可是我們應該也沒有藉口說要讓民眾像進建皇帝一樣爬上階梯仰望獨裁者 所以"},{"start":615.731,"end":642.551,"text":"可是中文紀念堂又是一個外國人會去的地方喔那他們看到我們在彰顯這個緬懷獨裁者的這個動作我覺得會丟臉丟到國際喔這樣的文化外交其實是不倫不類所以我建議具體建議中文紀念堂喔它有油壓大門有五層樓高那為了紀念獨裁者每年都要必須讓這個工作人員冒著生命的危險爬到同門上面去檢修保養"},{"start":643.451,"end":671.602,"text":"四次那檢查保養的項目包括這個抑壓系統啦什麼鋼索啦銅門啦軌道等等有49個細項部長我覺得為了一個獨裁者那每天開門開關廟門讓人家受人膜拜要求全民繳稅做這些繁瑣的工作我是覺得非常的荒唐所以想請文化部來研議看看或者是否可以承諾在中文紀念堂落實轉型前維持堂體大門的關閉"},{"start":673.123,"end":681.743,"text":"在轉型過渡期盡量減少對政治受難者家屬的傷害和羞辱這是我的建議那不曉得部長你怎麼看"},{"start":683.775,"end":710.79,"text":"行政院有一個轉型正義匯報非常確定就是未來中正紀念堂走向一個歷史記憶還有人權教育的一個民主的這個民主教育園區那它這是一個不可能改變的一個趨勢那過程中包括空間剛剛委員提到的空間要不要把門關起來或者空間的改造去除威權的形象還有我們的活動我們的展演"},{"start":711.61,"end":738.153,"text":"就朝這個方向過去但是委員你剛剛講到關這個門我們會也是在我們的也許一步一步走到有一個程度是大家可以接受的時候我們就往空間改造往空間改造來思考但是跟委員報告就是我們一直朝向把中央經濟團跟人權的議題綁在一起我們有一個中央經濟團有個戲院剛才演完人權電影還有放台語片諸如此類"},{"start":738.934,"end":755.315,"text":"我希望讓觀光客也慢慢走進這個中央經濟團以後大概了解這個我們台灣的民主的過程這個是一個我們下一波要努力的事情好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝林一金委員質詢 部長請回座"}]}},{"id":"165013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d29963d191cc427e53575289a78f60fae5e98bf0b6cf7b5104e40dd4d2d43dd7db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:40:52 - 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有請經貿辦許崇清資深代表請經貿辦談判代表委員好"},{"start":14.521,"end":20.282,"text":"是 代表好在這個川習會以前其實國人都非常的擔心怕就是台灣成為兩國談判的籌碼甚至會擔心台灣變成棄子結果一切都沒有發生台灣的議題完全沒有被提及很顯然的美中兩國都不想在經貿的談判當中增加變數甚至"},{"start":39.126,"end":63.477,"text":"會後川普曾經接受CBS的專訪的時候有提到說他也很驚訝習近平並沒有提到台灣的議題所以變成是說兩方其實是非常的在這方面是非常的節制那現在川習會已經結束了那是否川習會之後會不會影響到台美關稅的談判分析為什麼會這麼說因為之前我曾經看過一個報導"},{"start":66.138,"end":90.661,"text":"像之前我們一直都在說我們10月底以前這個台美的關稅會有一個定案會有一個結果可是現在已經11月了我們還沒有看到那也有媒體會猜測會就是說台美的這個是美方是不是要川習會之後再來跟台灣做最後的這個談判然後代表您如何看這件事情會不會有影響"},{"start":92.63,"end":111.215,"text":"是向委員報告就是說我們台美的這個關稅談判那在九月底十月初第五輪實體磋商之後那事實上雙方其實是有再次進行視訊會議的所以談判其實是有進展的那目前台美雙方實際是在進行書面文件的交換然後跟討論"},{"start":113.015,"end":128.677,"text":"那針對未來的協議來先行凝聚共識那我們是預期APEC會議現在會議結束了嘛那雙方之後呢可以繼續的溝通那待雙方達成共識以後就可以進入總結的會商達成台美貿易協議"},{"start":129.355,"end":155.525,"text":"那代表您認為說像台美後續的這個談判會受到這個川習會的影響嗎這兩者之間會有任何的這個關聯嗎還是說其實我們的步驟都是照著正常的程序走只是大家所期待的10月底可能有結果現在是還沒看到到底什麼時候我們還有一個結果那媒體也有說可能我們會比照第一島鏈日韓我們的關稅可能會降到15%有沒有這個可能"},{"start":157.684,"end":177.049,"text":"像委員報告就是說就有關於10月底這個事情那這個之前就是行政部門已經有對外說明了因為這個因為APEC的會議的這個關係所以就是在10月底我們知道在APEC之後然後來做這個處理"},{"start":179.17,"end":205.88,"text":"所以這個跟中美談判的內容其實是無關其實就是因為剛好卡了個App在那裡所以是其成的關係跟內容是沒關係的是不是對 我們的步驟跟步調其實還是在持續的進行所以大約會什麼時候呢大概會什麼時候會有一個結果還在談判當中是 我們 對 我們是在談判當中然後一有相關的結果我們都會適時的向國人報告"},{"start":206.44,"end":220.496,"text":"那再來還有一點我想請教的就是232條款這個部分這個調查報告據說是在明年4月才會公佈嘛美方到明年4月才會公佈那我想請教一下對我國的這個半導體的產業衝擊到底有多大"},{"start":223.239,"end":243.613,"text":"像委員報告就是說所謂的4月公佈可能是指他那個232條款他規定的最晚期限270天那但是事實上我們觀察就是他那個只是最晚的期限他並沒有說那個是一個一定是要到那個時候才能公佈那他事實上可以可能都可以提前那事實上"},{"start":246.094,"end":270.609,"text":"我們觀察就是說川普他這個政府他會依據他們自己的這個步調來來進行這個232調查的這個一個宣布那我們談判當中的時候有沒有在提有把232條款這部分給拉進來是我們在談判當中都是有在爭取就是說除了爭取調降對等關稅稅率然後不要疊加原來的MFN關稅稅率"},{"start":274.011,"end":301.343,"text":"我們232的多項的關稅又會待遇這個也是我們談判的主要目標那也是要為我們赴美投資的企業然後爭取更多有利的投資環境跟條件所以一切還在談判當中總結一句就是這樣那時間點目前還未知是這樣子嗎是OK好來資深代表請回要接下來我要邀請上來的是我們的經濟部江次長"},{"start":310.416,"end":330.675,"text":"委員好江市長好接下來我要講的就是稀土的議題中國佈局了40年讓他掌握了全球70%的開採權所以現在可以說是他只能他可以說是現階段是掐著高科技產業跟再生能源的主要的命脈本來在川習會前也是"},{"start":336.16,"end":347.566,"text":"也是他中國也提出了就是說要管制這個稀土的這個出口可是後來川習會結束之後呢他說要暫停這個稀土管制然後呢要購買這個美國的這個農產品等等我想這當然這是一個他的談判的這個籌碼那可是中國在10月9號對這個稀土出口呢發布這個所謂管制的這個消息之後呢"},{"start":365.395,"end":389.534,"text":"虽然在这个川习会当中目前是暂缓来实施可是我们会发现就是说反而唤醒了全世界的这个危机意识因为中国可能随时都会拿管制这个系统作为贸易谈判的这个筹码所以我们也发现美国也好跟他的盟友其实都在重塑系统供应"},{"start":390.534,"end":408.968,"text":"供应链的这个决心那台湾也是那之前经济部曾经就是说就算是说这个中国如果他发布了这个系统管制的这个命令的话台湾短期不会受到这个重大的影响因为我们有很多这个供应链是来自于像美国日本"},{"start":409.708,"end":427.948,"text":"可是我們的無人機、電動車跟高效馬達等等還是有存在一些風險所以之前我有看到經濟部長在提到就是說政府將加速建置回收再精煉產品的量能希望在2030年的時候能夠達到三分之一的需求我想請問一下就是說目前這個技術"},{"start":429.629,"end":453.464,"text":"這技術有開放給其他的這個產業嗎我們有在研發嗎還是說現在目前是一個怎麼樣的階段因為我們覺得就算是說稀土的這個目前暫時是休戰當中可是我們還是會覺得這個是有一些危機那台灣如何來應處的這個部分是 我分兩點跟委員做報告第一點呢 這個"},{"start":456.451,"end":473.792,"text":"中國他對於稀土的管制除了在今年的十月份其實他在今年稍早四月份就第一波所以我們一直是密切的關注相關的發展那這一次呢跟川習會之後他決定要暫緩一年一年的時間其實我們因為我們的半導體"},{"start":475.193,"end":502.783,"text":"所使用的稀土其實最主要不是來自於中國而是來自於歐美等地而且我們大部分都是半成品的進口所以這次的稀土的管制對我們的半導體的產業是影響是有限的但是呢在永磁馬達的永磁鐵的這個部分呢確實對於一些電動車馬達所需要的是有影響所以經濟部現在已經委託這個工研院"},{"start":503.343,"end":527.343,"text":"来做相关技术的回收同时呢我们的技术师也这个鼓励的我们的业者能够开发没有使用这些用磁铁的重磁铁的这些马达那相关的这个研发的补助已经在进行所以我们也希望呢到2030年的时候我们可以自主供应的量大概达到三分之一以上说明"},{"start":527.583,"end":548.352,"text":"所以目前的話我們這個技術其實已經進到產業界了嗎還是目前只有還在工研院的部分工研院有在做研發同時我們也是跟業者共同國內一些生產重電的業者也一起進行所以已經在進行當中了因為我之前也看到就是日本日本其實他也有提到就是說他也為了"},{"start":548.992,"end":570.029,"text":"前陣子很多年前曾經跟中國管制這個矽土出口所以日本為了想要有這個自主性所以他們有研究新型的馬達也就是說可以不需要用到矽土的部分我們有在開發這部分的材料嗎有 我們有在研發委託工研跟業主一起共同研發"},{"start":571.49,"end":585.751,"text":"因為我有看到日本方面是這麼做他說為了要擺脫依賴中國系統的解放所以他們自己有去研發就是降低使用系統的所謂的新型馬達所以台灣其實也在研發當中我們已經進行了好 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謝謝主席 我請一下部長我們再請龔部長"},{"start":16.147,"end":44.765,"text":"邱委員早部長好部長我想我們今天要審查這個公司法跟這個能源管理法是的那本席就能源管理法提出了一個修正的版本是增訂第19條之二是本席的內容是明訂任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應或能源基礎設施的不實謠言以及增訂第27條之一對於違反者若造成社會秩序危害或引發公眾恐慌"},{"start":45.365,"end":59.597,"text":"出於新台幣10萬以上60萬以下的罰款這個部長我想您大概也非常清楚這幾年其實台灣受到境外的這一些認知作戰的影響是非常的巨大包括"},{"start":60.7,"end":89.297,"text":"其实在今年的这个新达电厂的火灾之后呢就有媒体就写说不排除分区限电然后前一阵子大家一直在讲说这个乌山头水库的太阳能板是不是有毒是不是用清洁剂去洗太阳能板那甚至昨天前天在这个社群媒体的平台上面还有人说嘉义东石外海有这么多漂流的光电板"},{"start":89.697,"end":93.065,"text":"漂浮的光電板 民進黨是怎麼做事的"},{"start":94.803,"end":123.562,"text":"這個東石外海的這個不是光電板是磕碰但是類似這樣的一些假訊息一直不斷的來做干擾部長您到底怎麼看本席的這個提案你知不支持雖然你剛剛講說這個是不是要等你們所有的這個行政院版的版本出來那我覺得對於假訊息對於故意散播謠言這一件事情"},{"start":124.902,"end":149.57,"text":"還需要等嗎 還要再等你們的版本出來嗎報告委員 這方向上當然我們是樂觀審視支持但是現在因為相關有關於這個謠言主要還是已經有這個社會秩序維護法了那怎麼樣這邊跟社會秩序服務法看怎麼樣內容上有一些協調或者是執行上要怎麼去處理可能我們要再思考一下"},{"start":151.238,"end":172.201,"text":"所以你還是要等社會秩序維護法部長我請教一下你們有沒有去做過一些調查統計關於這種來自境外IP的組織操作的這些能源相關的議題有沒有去做過調查有沒有去做過統計然後這樣的攻擊的頻率跟次數"},{"start":173.442,"end":195.534,"text":"影響的程度你們有沒有去做過調查跟統計沒有詳細但是有感覺到是越來越你如果沒有做過統計當然你就會覺得我就等社委法我就等什麼法如果你有去做過統計的話你會知道越來越頻繁就感受得到這樣的這個境外的攻擊對台灣的整體能源政策來講其實是"},{"start":196.587,"end":221.439,"text":"非常嚴重的境外的攻擊不只是在政治面上面它在國家的很多的施政上面其實都會造成巨大的影響所以我想請您回去好好想一下如果說這一件事情你們認為這些境外的攻擊是嚴重的是不是能夠考慮把本席的這個提案納入在我們明天的這個審查討論裡頭這個是第一點第二點"},{"start":226.577,"end":247.346,"text":"關於這個境外中國電商落地納管部長我要請教一下你所謂的落地納管是什麼意思落地納什麼管那哪一個法來管理管理他的哪一些部分比如說現在我們知道這個淘寶"},{"start":249.755,"end":278.76,"text":"淘寶他其實我們都知道他是中資可是他在台灣的落地他在台灣的設立是用港資 淘寶公司台灣的分公司好 那港資的台灣分公司在台灣他具不具備有法人的身份歐洲 日本 韓國都早就已經要求跨境的電商要設立法人可是台灣沒有好 你要求他落地納管"},{"start":279.81,"end":306.909,"text":"要管理他什麼要用什麼法去管理他他要遵循你哪一個法如果說這樣的一個跨境電商你現在陸委會也講啊我們的中資管理辦法裡頭沒有開放電商啊可是大家都知道淘寶就是中資啊你可以告訴我你要怎麼管嗎報委員基本上我們現在的態度還是不會讓淘寶來台灣經營電商"},{"start":309.554,"end":338.14,"text":"那現在這個香港商你這不是很鄉愿嗎不要讓淘寶來台灣經營電商可是淘寶就在台灣啊沒有 他只能經營有一些船艙上的傳送而已這個是廣告小船的傳送網路上到處都有啊然後他不能透過媒體來做廣告 是不行他只是不能透過媒體做廣告他現在淘寶需要透過什麼媒體做廣告大家都知道淘寶他還需要做什麼廣告他繞了一個彎用港資成立台灣的分公司"},{"start":339.673,"end":360.753,"text":"那你要落地納管你要管他什麼我就簡單問你這一句話嘛你要用哪一個法來管他我簡單問你嘛這一家台灣的分公司有沒有繳稅他的營業額他有沒有繳稅他幾乎沒有營業額他只是一個推波廣就是這個發放小船單啊或等等一些情況你說他幾乎沒有營業"},{"start":363.673,"end":378.576,"text":"這跟我們社會的認知差別太大了吧那他沒有營業你為什麼要納管他你為什麼要叫他落地納管你要管他什麼我剛一直問你這句話嘛你一直要納管你要管他什麼然後你現在告訴我他沒有營業那他沒有營業你還要管他什麼你叫他直接公司收起來"},{"start":379.642,"end":403.858,"text":"各位原報告香港淘寶在這邊我們只有核准他廣告傳單的分送那現在大家在上那個淘寶他其實並沒有落地在我們台灣成立淘寶的購物網他大概都是用那個大陸的那個淘寶電商那這個部分目前納管的話就是說如果你沒有在台灣落地我們就不讓你可以經營那也是用這樣那這個部分因為涉及到跨部會可能我們還跟"},{"start":404.678,"end":427.687,"text":"蘇衛部那邊一起來討論一下怎麼去管理這個跨境電商這種沒有落地而違法經營的問題其實這個問題已經很久了淘寶這件事情還不只淘寶什麼拼多多各式各樣的這些跨境電商他現在就是鑽台灣的法律漏洞那這個過去大家從中國跨境買的包裹"},{"start":428.942,"end":454.811,"text":"常常我們這個包裹收到的時候裡面會收到一條豬肉條會收到一個豬肉乾會收到一個豬肉香腸這個都是漏洞好 現在非洲豬瘟入侵台灣很有可能是透過這些郵包我說有可能或者是被不知名的人士在這個"},{"start":456.789,"end":475.948,"text":"航運的時候帶進偷帶豬肉進來台灣總之這個非洲豬瘟已經在台灣產生已經在台灣出現現在我們要亡羊補牢要來管理這一些中國跨境郵包的時候這個郵包的數量最多我想應該就是淘寶嘛"},{"start":476.826,"end":495.461,"text":"那淘寶大家都知道他是跨境電商都知道他是中國是中國的阿里巴巴集團在管理管控那你們現在一直跟我說要落地納管我們沒有要讓他落地因為我們不想希望他在這邊合法經營"},{"start":497.915,"end":520.206,"text":"部長 我們要認真務實的去處理這個事情啊你不讓他在這裡落地合法經營他透過港資成立台灣的分公司那你現在又說台灣的分公司沒有在經營他是直接到網站上面去買那就沒有什麼落地納管的問題啊你管不了他嘛因為你都講了他沒有在台灣營業嘛他沒有在台灣經營嘛"},{"start":522.148,"end":536.784,"text":"你自己的立場 政府自己的立場都踩得這麼不穩了你還替他說話 你說他沒有在台灣經營這個我聽不下去嘛 然後政府又告訴行政院長要跟我們說要諾蒂娜管他不能在台灣這個有這個前台的這個齁"},{"start":540.101,"end":564.9,"text":"他現在不需要在台灣有前台的經營嘛直接網站連結到中國就上去了嘛直接就在中國的網站上就買了嘛那你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛我現在一直要問的就是說你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛所以這個為什麼要跨部會就是這樣因為就經濟部來講他只有讓中資能不能落地這件事情而已事實上基本上電商的管理是數位發展部在管的"},{"start":566.821,"end":586.879,"text":"這個部長 中資不能落地或者是該怎麼落地能不能落地這件事情的確討論很久中資拐了一個彎變成其他的不知名的資不管是港資什麼新加坡資什麼資它實際的後台還是在中國這件事情你們也要正視"},{"start":589.401,"end":617.266,"text":"這件事情我們不能相怨不能蒙著頭說他沒有在台灣實際經營實際營業我們不能蒙著頭去處理這個事情否則你後面你很難管我知道他如果違規的話我們就會把他取消資格那你又說他沒有在台灣營業啊所以他怎麼違規所以我們現在就是因為你的講法是前後矛盾的嘛部長我不要再問你了我再問下去喔會很難看的啦但是你自己立場要站好站啦我們不會讓他營業"},{"start":620.848,"end":641.563,"text":"我的建議是說不是你要不要讓他營業這件事情而是跨境電商包括有中資成分的這些跨境電商拐了一個彎進來轉了一個彎進來實際後頭控制還是在中國我們政府應該要怎麼面對這個是源頭的管理好不好 部長"}]}},{"id":"165011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d248509afda8dedde16e3cb72f09a57cc5e98bf0b6cf7b51041cacf34fee12e76f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:23:45 - 09:33:38","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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我想請一下工部長我們再請經濟部工部長"},{"start":13.988,"end":34.48,"text":"政委好部長好我想請教一下因為之前的經濟部長郭志輝他之前在113年7月30號有先預告修正能源管理法部分條文結果已經一年多了到現在都還沒有送來立法院請問一下部長情況到底是為什麼然後現在進度到哪裡"},{"start":36.029,"end":54.545,"text":"報委事實上我們已經有送到行政院了那行政院他還在做一些條文的一些檢視因為還要配合整個再生能源法案條例還有電源法所以現在行政院嘛對不對有沒有預計什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":56.038,"end":74.279,"text":"他要拖多久不會 應該最晚大概一兩個月內但行政院的就是事實上行政院已經有討論過幾次會議那當然我不能幫行政院決定時間但是我相信很快大概我在想最晚大概兩個月內應該就會送出來"},{"start":74.679,"end":96.674,"text":"更快因為我們在討論中沒有辦法幫行政理解那我想請教一下因為當時候在這個預告修正的部分的時候我覺得裡面有三個部分其實是比較新的一個概念第一個部分是需求面節約能源管理從原本的定位朝向需求面的一個節約能源管理這部分那這個部分的時候部長是支持的嗎對不對還是"},{"start":99.502,"end":121.855,"text":"部長各位請說 支持嘛 OK好那另外一個部分就是說因為當時的部分他也表示要把再生能源納入規範這個部分也是支持的對不對 是的OK好那第三個部分的時候就是說當時的預告修正版本的時候有提到說要公開能源銷售相關的資料"},{"start":124.259,"end":149.149,"text":"這也是支持的所以這三個部分都有送到行政院板裡頭對不對ok好理解那這個部分我們就期待那希望說真的這個能源管理法部分我們是能夠盡快把它完善那對台灣接下來的一個能源管理部分會有更好的一個注意那另外一個部分我想今天因為今天本席就有提到一個公司把第160條的修正案我想請教一下部長"},{"start":152.067,"end":172.604,"text":"因為資誠之前在2023年曾經發布一個全球際台灣家族企業調查報告他特別提到說全台灣有七成以上的上市上位公司都是家族企業其中第一代掌管的高達54%其中有43%的企業對於接班還有股權傳承是沒有規劃的"},{"start":177.888,"end":192.114,"text":"部長你應該知道這個狀態因為部長對企業的了解應該也是非常深的我想請教一下在這樣的一個情況之下如果說我們現在還是用一個全體同意的方式來處理"},{"start":194.395,"end":221.916,"text":"共同共有的那個持股這樣的一個部分的時候我想請問一下部長你不覺得這樣子的時候我們接下來會有多少的一個企業台灣的家族企業會碰到了這樣子的一個企業僵局當中部長你可不可以簡單回應一下是 鮑委員這個題就像我剛剛事實上在報告的時候也就是說明那我們也跟跨部會有徵詢過意見那"},{"start":224.495,"end":251.507,"text":"過去最高法院的判決向來是認定要回歸民法那現在民法的規定他還是採用這個共識決的方式那司法院也認為 市部長你這邊有特別提到說透過遺產分割方式來解決嘛你知道很多家族企業第一代老闆走掉之後的時候他的遺產只要他有外面有私生子的時候這個問題一定沒有辦法短期內解決的"},{"start":253.083,"end":268.958,"text":"部長 我想請教一下如果說要用這樣的方式來透過遺產分割的方式解決的時候曠日廢時啊部長 你有沒有稍微去了解一下目前台灣的上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的公司碰到這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":270.034,"end":284.788,"text":"法委員 司法院有代表是不是請這個司法院有代表是不是也讓他說明一下因為法律的好 我們請司法院"},{"start":304.398,"end":323.79,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢那這個部分我們其實今天在這個我們的書面報告裡面其實有寫到就關於這個共有股份的權利行使的這部分其實因為試設政策考量所以本院這邊是尊重主管機關以及立法院的職權也就是說其實今天如果今天條文規定的是明確的話其實"},{"start":325.091,"end":353.588,"text":"所以我們要修法就這部分嘛這就是我們要修法的原因那現在企業界碰到這麼多共同共有的一個持股狀態的時候然後我們要解決所以部長現在你用司法院他在說法的時候完全不是要解決問題啊你知道嗎他只尊重現在的一個法律的狀態那我們修法不就是要解決現在企業碰到的問題嗎所以我想請教部長現在上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的企業碰到這樣子的一個方式一個"},{"start":354.528,"end":383.038,"text":"一個問題沒有辦法解決你有沒有一個統計的數字如果沒有的時候喔你回去了解之後再到本辦公室來報告我再問一下部長我們公司法當中現在法條有多少條不曉得連這個都不曉得有400多條對400多條具體數字都還不曉得我告訴你那你知道裡面有多少條跟股東會有關"},{"start":385.387,"end":407.77,"text":"都不知道對不對我稍微統計的是大概有80條以上是跟董事會的權責有關那麼這麼多的狀態的時候如果說我們因為這樣子一個僵局的時候董事會都沒辦法召開然後股東會沒辦法召開然後董事會沒有辦法改選那這樣企業不是蕩在那邊"},{"start":409.341,"end":428.716,"text":"我們經濟部這邊沒有責任要來解決這個問題嗎跟委員說明這個部分我們事實上有開過非常多次的專家會議在討論事實上對於股東權這個部分他除了管理權之外他可能還包括處分那這邊必須要去釐清因為"},{"start":429.372,"end":442.087,"text":"在民法上面他如果處分的話他就必須是回到是共識決但是股東權力的行使他不是只有管理所以這邊的話我們跟司法院這邊申詢他們的意見也是這個樣子"},{"start":444.005,"end":471.597,"text":"本席理解這個狀態因為你來本辦公室溝通過好多次那我們知道說其實他這部分包括整個權益的問題還有行為處分上面的一些相關的一個問題可是問題是如果我們idol在這個地方的時候這個問題我永遠沒辦法解決然後一個遺產的問題打個十幾年的官司所在多有如果因為這樣的狀態我們就沒有辦法去做董事會的改選去做"},{"start":473.342,"end":496.031,"text":"股東的一個股東會的一個招開等等相關的一個問題的時候我就對整個企業長期發展肯定是有很大的一個問題所以本席希望針對這個部分部長你可不可以好好的來解決然後我剛剛提到那幾個問題目前上市公司有多少碰到這樣子問題還沒有解決的之後到本辦公室來做一個很清楚的說明因為現在連土地法這種靜態的財產都可以用這樣子"},{"start":498.412,"end":519.5,"text":"多數決的一個方式來做解決為什麼我們動態的一個股東權益沒有辦法去做解決本席認為不太應該那麼在剛剛本席一開始的一個修法的一個說明當中的時候也特別提到那我最後再提到一個問題就是立法院這邊的時候有特別提到"},{"start":520.953,"end":534.413,"text":"能源署這邊對於陸域風機的選址管制的相關的一個規定那之前能源署是表示說沒有提供陸域風機的用地指引 因為選擇單位太多對不對"},{"start":537.097,"end":561.543,"text":"所以你們沒有辦法提出來可是問題是這個也不是解決問題的方式因為現在能源署是管這個部分的時候那是不是應該要作為跨部會的一個協商然後提出一個用地指引不要把這個問題直接丟給環境影響評估然後當作一個我們主管單位的一個推卸責任的一個狀態可不可以"},{"start":562.878,"end":591.987,"text":"好 我們來跟環境部還有各單位來討論一下那大概什麼時候可以有一個結果出來年底可以嘛 年底之前今年年底是不是 OK好那我們希望說公司法的部分我希望部長這邊能夠再去多了解一下之後再到本辦公室來做一個詳細的說明因為我覺得這個部分是很多台灣的家族企業都碰到的問題現在不解決 未來問題只會越來越多好不好謝謝"},{"start":594.983,"end":595.366,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝曾委員"}]}},{"id":"165005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2f52e6e486e1dd6d7367e5b5a2f2752d0e98bf0b6cf7b5104ddd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:34:38 - 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After A Second他在頒獎的時候說"},{"start":74.071,"end":91.654,"text":"创作人跟文化部不是要饭的我们每一个人都有每一个人的价值我们每一个人都是很认真的在写歌所以我想刚刚那个部长称赞柯志恩委员问得很专业他应该多跟陈玉琛委员还有罗志强等沟通"},{"start":92.515,"end":115.008,"text":"文化部的補助在每個世代真的幫助很多年輕樂團登大人其中一個就是FAAS這也是他講的我很謝謝文化部以來都在照顧台灣的這些樂團因為每一場菁英獎的演出其實後面付出很大的努力這些都有它的價值並不是要飯的"},{"start":115.848,"end":131.493,"text":"我想今天有這麼多得獎人在台上感謝文化部不是一個偶然因為大家都有看到部長是怎麼捍衛文化的預算所以我今天想跟部長問的是跟這次刪減的影響"},{"start":132.932,"end":149.961,"text":"那今年度114年度我們辦公室整理圓邊列290億元共刪除11億元凍結34億元那這是文化部史上最高的刪結及凍結數那我記得非常深刻的是我聽到卓院長講"},{"start":152.162,"end":180.072,"text":"李遠部長您是怎麼樣跟他要預算的您真的不管是寫紙條給他一直想要讓文化部能夠得到比過去歷屆更多的預算可是這個心願好像沒有如願在刪減之後我們也看到王小麗 楊麗周等來我們立法院抗議文化部預算招大幅刪減可是很不幸的除了當場被陳玉珍回嗆之外"},{"start":180.672,"end":203.405,"text":"王小弟等还在网路上因为站出来被大量攻击那当然我们还是谢谢他们站出来因为本来会被删减的更惨那后来我们整理一下还是被删掉的公式机台湾plus2.43亿联合典藏库房1亿元全数删掉然后媒体宣传费5943万"},{"start":205.166,"end":214.621,"text":"也是全部刪除黑潮計畫有搶救回來不少可是還是刪了4000萬我算了一下是13.8%那還有呢"},{"start":218.348,"end":247.47,"text":"雖然我們的藍白委員常常在轉型正義的議題上說他們很支持只是原住民的也要一起納入可是中正建議堂的轉型正義經費這個三千萬就被刪除了所以這個工作好像只能暫停表演藝術兩千萬中央社一千六百萬還有呢過去文化部跟國家人權博物館補助的公民團體文化論壇人權活動等預算也被刪除"},{"start":248.03,"end":274.269,"text":"那这些总共被删的是十亿亿元我想它不只是预算书上的数字可能潜在的像刚刚我们的金曼奖得主这些得主的经费都有可能被删所以其实今天我是希望给部长一个机会讲清楚因为我看到您在争取追加预算的时候罗志强完全不理会您讲的话"},{"start":275.309,"end":293.163,"text":"然後各部會都有追加文化部得到最少所以剛剛有委員說他們都非常的支持文化我想我們還是要把帳算一算因為部長你講說今年的預算書處處是彈孔我想問部長哪個彈孔最大然後怎麼補"},{"start":295.236,"end":311.272,"text":"哪一个弹孔最大以我刚刚算出来的好 整体来讲其实我们作为文化部它其实有很多预算就放在各种场馆的维修跟营运上还有例行的业务费用里面如果你删了我任何一笔"},{"start":312.213,"end":328.902,"text":"那这个计划本来就要执行的最后我怎么办呢就跟企业募款譬如说年初我们很多活动本来就跟去年继续下去要出国的钱你如果把我删了我们每个单位出去就跟企业去募款国长可不可以举个例子"},{"start":330.282,"end":348.869,"text":"聽說我知道像那個宣傳費用對不對就是也被刪掉可是很多人包含最近天下雜誌都有報導我們的大阪世界博覽會就是所謂的不是正式的台灣館就是它的表現非常好你們是怎麼補足這些彈孔的"},{"start":349.329,"end":369.825,"text":"是 這個就是我要講的民間本身主動發起了一個募款活動然後幫我們做廣告因為我們的媒宣費一被刪掉之後事實上我們非常吃力因為我們沒有錢做任何廣告隊伍去了 花了錢去了可是告知不夠但是我覺得我非常感動就是民間的"},{"start":372.162,"end":399.018,"text":"他们看到前面已经花了这些钱来做筹备可是你出去的时候没有宣传所以他们就发起一波又一波的宣传然后其实我都不知道他们发起以后我才知道然后让我们能够补足了这一部分就是在今年这么辛苦的这一年里面还好有很多民间团体还有企业帮我们补足了一些我们本来就该花的钱我要声明的就是其实刚刚讲到"},{"start":399.838,"end":428.085,"text":"那些文化人為什麼很感謝文化部是因為每當一個文化政策做對的時候它就影響這個產業譬如漫畫之所以會對是因為2018年開始有漫畫的這個講座每一個產業都因為某一次的政策對了它就一直持續下去所以我為什麼覺得文化部總預算來講它是不高的它占整個台灣的所有預算都是1%都不到那很難得"},{"start":429.005,"end":456.208,"text":"行政院願意讓我的預算到300億左右然後可是我們的能量是一直在擴大我們的活動越來越多它不是今年比去年多的問題它是活動越來越多很多公共建設很多對外活動那我們都靠自己來克服它只要多給我們一點點這個宣傳預算我們就可以做得更好所以為什麼今天把我們砍掉最佳預算2.8億"},{"start":458.348,"end":461.117,"text":"其实里面就是有宣传费他就是不让我们花"},{"start":462.611,"end":491.583,"text":"所以他就是要部長去找企業家協助就對了自己部長除了要匯做事還要匯募款我覺得他們對於宣傳費有個錯誤的想說我們來大內宣其實我們每一筆錢都花在活動的宣傳比如文化幣如果你不給我錢我文化幣已經偏了很多預算我如何告訴別人說我有文化幣今年我們如果降到13到15歲我如何告訴別人我們有這個活動那部長"},{"start":493.444,"end":511.723,"text":"很慶幸看到你們還有能力找民間協助要不然像我剛講的大阪世界博覽會這麼重要的一個國際宣傳的場合落魁就不好了那有沒有哪些部分是到現在為止被迫終止或者你們還在努力的因為時間到了30秒內部長可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":516.024,"end":534.396,"text":"其实我们大部分的平均债每个业务非常多不够然后被迫终止我们就用别的方式比如说刚才讲到那个点残的没有过以后我们就用其他的地方去补足但是都是捉襟见畜我觉得文化部就是这样子你把预算编少了"},{"start":535.496,"end":561.427,"text":"對我們同仁來講它少一點工作但是大家都會很急迫地想多做一點其實我們之前的拉扯就是你多給一點錢我們要多做更多事情可是剛好台灣的文化就在這個點上開始很多百花齊放很需要多一點活動包括對外走到國外去宣傳台灣的文化到國外去所有人都非常努力你只要多給一點點錢我們就可以多一點宣傳 對"},{"start":562.307,"end":581.232,"text":"那部長我的結論就是請文化部繼續讓狼妻FAAS這樣優秀的創作者被台灣跟被世界看到那如果藍白委員有什麼不合理的要求那部長您要讓他們知道他們傷害的是我們文化的創作者要繼續大聲講出來好 謝謝謝謝范雲委員質詢部長請回座"}]}},{"id":"165003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d265815cca787055ad367e5b5a2f2752d0e98bf0b6cf7b51045b55e0d0608bdf185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:24:08 - 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发个这个钱然后我们来看这就是当我们最后我们下一次来做预算的一个最大的参考好不好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d23cdf2ffd03e743f4e93813deec41dbcae98bf0b6cf7b51045a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:20:57 - 09:23:17","影片長度":"00:02:20","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：審查「使用牌照稅法」29案：（僅詢答）\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員陳超明等18人、委員羅明才等20人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等27人、委員許宇甄等22人、委員邱若華等17人、委員林俊憲等26人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員李彥秀等16人、委員蘇清泉等18人、委員徐欣瑩等24人、委員郭昱晴等19人、委員王美惠等19人、委員李坤城等18人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員郭國文等18人、委員吳沛憶等17人、委員葛如鈞等16人、委員沈發惠等17人、委員林思銘等22人、委員賴士葆等25人、委員黃健豪等20人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條條文修正草案」等24案。【後2案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員廖先翔等17人擬具「使用牌照稅法第五條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員牛煦庭等17人、委員鍾佳濱等16人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正草案」等2案。【後1案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n五、本院委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「使用牌照稅法第七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T09:20:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T09:23:17+08:00","duration":140,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.67284375,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.62534375,"end":140.61659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.79,"end":16.164,"text":"各位官員大家早本期今天提出的是使用牌照稅第五條的修正草案在全球掀起近臨轉型浪潮的時刻電動車不只是交通工具更象徵一個國家能源政策與產業升級的一個決心"},{"start":16.724,"end":23.807,"text":"然而電動車的普及率未達到預期充電裝不足設置程序繁瑣家用充電設備成本高昂等問題成為民眾轉向綠能交通的最大阻力若此時讓電動車免徵使用牌照稅的政策在114年底劃下句點等同在轉型的關鍵時刻鬆手將重創整體產業的發展信心"},{"start":39.915,"end":53.592,"text":"而為了確保電動車推動政策不中斷並維持綠能運輸的發展動能本次修正使用牌照稅法第五條建議延長電動車免徵使用牌照稅的措施五年自119年12月31日止"},{"start":56.796,"end":76.412,"text":"此舉不但能夠延續政策誘因更能讓產業有足夠時間完善基礎建設逐步培養穩定的市場環境避免出現政策真空期我國已設定2050年達成淨零排放的長期標準交通運輸部門是排放碳排放的主要來源之一"},{"start":77.092,"end":102.102,"text":"推动电动车普及是达成减碳的关键策略相较传统的燃油车电动车具备零碳排低污染低噪音的优势不仅能改善空气的品质也是能够降低城市热导的效应是实践永续发展的重要一步延长免增期限不只是单纯的税制优惠更是对绿能交通的长期投资回顾过去几年来"},{"start":102.702,"end":108.385,"text":"免增政策確實是發揮了誘因帶動電動車銷售的成長也促進國內供應鏈技術加速發展從車用電池馬達到充電設備臺灣的廠商逐步建立完整的體系若在此時 撤除政策將會使我們的能源政策的穩定性產生盈率所以本席在這邊懇請所有的委員大家一起支持使用牌照稅延長五年的提案 謝謝"},{"start":131.667,"end":140.058,"text":"好,谢谢徐义正委员接下来我们请郭怡晴委员不在现在请王美惠委员"}]}},{"id":"165004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2ec1c560b7bafb81d575289a78f60fae5e98bf0b6cf7b51040782f81b66ae16015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:30:36 - 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接下来这个石油管理法这跟能源署有关系这个石油管理法第36条是本席在第8届的时候提出修正特别针对喷眼地区 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警政署長"},{"start":16.62,"end":28.377,"text":"張委員早部長這個一萬塊快要發了那我記得我上次也有質詢說財政部有編列預算還有什麼這個防詐"},{"start":32.012,"end":55.224,"text":"現在內政部我們警政署在電視上在什麼都有實際的案例然後讓大家知道什麼是詐騙這個那時候我就這樣一直要求然後你們也已經做了那這個一萬塊我到現在目前為止還沒有看到有任何當然沒有發生沒有實例但是呢已經有詐騙的實例了"},{"start":57.026,"end":66.059,"text":"我的意思就是說我們在電視上的宣導什麼的這些都沒有預作準備嗎我一個月前我就有質詢了"},{"start":67.085,"end":86.117,"text":"那你們也說你們會回去處理我不知道處理了怎麼樣如果不知道可以請署長處理我告訴你那個報告委員現在在那個立法院討論的時候其實已經有很多詐騙的網站那這個我們刑事局跟所有地方上面的很大力在打壓這個部分"},{"start":86.597,"end":105.739,"text":"那最重要是那個委員有多次有提及就是說我們需要顧慮到比較偏鄉或是比較沒有辦法從網路或是電視上面知道說有這個普發現金一萬塊的詐騙的部分所以現在的內政部跟財政部已經邀集了全台灣各地的小公寓包括AM在內的這個廣播電台"},{"start":107.461,"end":123.15,"text":"要開始做這方面的一個廣播宣導那包括國台客語的部分都會加進去那因為今天才開始要做正式的登錄所以我們跟各小公寓的電台也是今天才會開始那財政部也是在進行當中"},{"start":123.71,"end":142.075,"text":"所以是今天才會開始因為你需要招標不可能說做就做有做了啦我重點只要這個有有有沒問題未來您還是會聽得到如果你有AM的那個我會特別去聽啊還有客語客語我也聽得懂那再來啦"},{"start":147.669,"end":156.407,"text":"我們現在2026年新的租屋補助的新制就是一定要合法住宅這點我也完全認同"},{"start":157.524,"end":181.389,"text":"我也覺得你違章啊你什麼然後去再賺錢我覺得還是必須要有一些處理的部分不過如果在偏鄉啊很多的房子啊他可能啊連登記都沒有登記啊如果在偏鄉他有需要我說的這個是有可能是很多弱勢喔老人喔"},{"start":182.993,"end":191.247,"text":"他可能他就一個人住在那邊他可能住親戚的房子或什麼的那個很多的偏鄉他房子連登記都沒有登記這個怎麼辦"},{"start":194.801,"end":215.527,"text":"署長署長要回答之前我再跟張委員補充一下我們剛剛在找的這個小公寓電台的部分有加在一起這個有非六都的小公寓電台有26家然後全台灣小公寓電台大概有2家"},{"start":216.297,"end":239.567,"text":"已經都開始在處理了可能今天就會上線有就好了我先請署長回應好 署長你看我我對弱勢對重了我是特別的關心像這種情況怎麼處理跟我們報告啦其實因為的確就是說我們一開始一定要先重視建築物安全因為過去這兩年雖然我們有補助但是有一些意外還是有頻傳所以"},{"start":240.029,"end":264.579,"text":"我們決定不再補助但是你剛剛所提到如果早期是屬於未登記的住宅其實未登記住宅是不算違建啦就早期的未登記就在建築法之前它有一些叫未登記住宅那個是一個但是如果它是沒有就是說它是完全不是屬於未登記住宅是純屬違章的話我想我們會跟地方政府協商就有一些從策略中的這個比較弱勢戶優先來排除啦因為這樣的話會比較妥適啦"},{"start":268.563,"end":287.201,"text":"我覺得啦我們這個辦法什麼的你在六都在都市都會區裡面我都完全支持但這一點我覺得你們要找出要很明確哪一些範圍內可以就是策略的這個弱勢戶"},{"start":288.715,"end":310.723,"text":"那個部分就先免除這樣的一個限制你弱勢戶還是要優先照顧弱勢戶要照顧之外弱勢戶很可能在偏鄉就是遇到我這個問題就是我剛剛講弱勢戶的部分先排除這個問題你們要去把它處理好這一塊要很明確也不要變成漏洞了解要把它局限在偏鄉了解不然"},{"start":313.584,"end":322.951,"text":"你如果又開了一個洞因為您指的大概就非六都的部分非六都大概要人口數比較少的召委的嘉義市裡面有需要嗎"},{"start":324.786,"end":347.385,"text":"比較少吧我認為你一次也不能開太大的你就是要偏鄉有這種需要的我們再來你不要一次處理你也沒辦法所以跟我們報告就是我會從弱勢先啦弱勢先優先來做這樣的一個排序我們要處理這一塊啦那再來一點時間"},{"start":351.704,"end":374.718,"text":"那個部長我看到你們這個裡面這個業務報告裡面有就是既有的宗教的建物跟用地的合法化那我們有補助很多縣市去處理這個事情不知道處理的情況如何宗教建物的合法化那我是 既有我先請"},{"start":378.637,"end":383.821,"text":"謝謝委員關心跟委員報告事實上宗教建築合法其實我們有一個暫行條例你就不要再跟我講那些了那我們現在就現行我們會積極來輔導就是你都市計畫裡面我們會用頭版前導方式然後先把土地解決以後然後飛度部分我們就用特定就變根變木把它讓土地變成特木然後土地解決以後再做建築的一個合法"},{"start":406.428,"end":434.658,"text":"阿我剛問你阿你這個是方法阿你們有補助有什麼阿目前有沒有什麼進度各位 包括我們現在就是補助一千這個三年補助一千萬給這個地方政府來做一個業務的宣導是 我說真的啦阿你們這個一千萬我就真的覺得既有的寺廟或什麼都在那裡啦還要宣導什麼打一通電話去跟他講就有這個了阿對不對 是"},{"start":436.055,"end":447.479,"text":"你跟我講一些我現在問你的成績是如何你就回答我有沒有成績就好是跟我們報告那現在這幾年以後現在我們有輔導大概911家人完成了這個2300幣的土地已經轉為一個登記了我跟你講你跟我問你的問題跟你回答我的問題是不一樣的東西我跟你講你是回答我不一樣的東西"},{"start":468.556,"end":493.541,"text":"感謝委員因為其實大概不管在獨基區跟非都大概都會透過通盤檢討或是有一些變更的作業要點但是其實委員也知道其實過程當中不是那麼順利啦因為有的寺廟他可能早就已經建超過了那所以這個部分我想我們還是會持續在相關的變更裡面去做這樣的一個處理我只有一個啦"},{"start":495.014,"end":514.322,"text":"很多的廟 很多的寺廟其實是比政府還早就成立了啦很多的寺廟 很多他是因為不懂法令才會這樣這個寺廟他只要不要被私人去拿去挪不是書廟 不是什麼那種的我都覺得政府應該要"},{"start":516.103,"end":538.567,"text":"盡量讓他合法化這樣才能夠長長久久啦新名也比你更大啦 對不對所以我覺得要朝這個方向你知道我在問什麼啦我知道他回答的不對啦所以沒關係這個我只是要讓你們知道這個要去重視要去處理就好了啦 好不好好 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我們請劉思芳 劉部長請保重"},{"start":9.219,"end":29.311,"text":"委員早部長好部長我們立法院在禮拜一的時候去考察了新北的污水建設那我想在這個考察的過程當中我們也確認了幾個狀況就是第一感謝我們政府過去八年來對新北市其實真的是大力補助所以補助其實高達211億元"},{"start":31.465,"end":36.968,"text":"211億元所以這個是全國第一高的補助經費當然新北市政府也積極施作所以這個累積管數已經達到了126萬多戶也是全國第一所以在這樣的狀況下我們覺得持續應該進行不過也看得出來因為新北很大"},{"start":52.777,"end":81.179,"text":"所以這個區域各個地區29個鄉鎮區其實它的整個落差接管率是差別很大像我來自這個樹林英哥這個地方我們的接管率其實並沒有到五成是相對來講是非常落後的地方英哥甚至只有23%而已所以我當場其實就是提議就是未來如果我們還有機會在這個中央在補助地方在建置污水建設的時候那是不是可以"},{"start":82.182,"end":87.345,"text":"改變指標讓地方的縣市政府如果有優先平衡自己區域內的不同接管率地區的時候這一種平衡調整這個平衡縣市內區域發展的話那麼我們就可以把它在競爭型計畫裡面可以列為是優先的那當場呢對於我這樣的建議次長是表達肯定方向可以帶回去研議這樣的狀態那我非常的感謝"},{"start":112.202,"end":129.892,"text":"所以整個考察我覺得其實是蠻好的讓我們大家可以了解說其實中央政府這幾年真的對各縣市當然包括我們的新北市其實補助是非常多的不過啦在這樣的一片肯定當中其實部長有一個問題就是有可能要請你在備詢台這邊再表示一下"},{"start":130.692,"end":135.477,"text":"因為我們最後的結語對於前面的樂觀未來卻不是如此因為在才化法修正之後確實未來我們的中央這裡的經費相對來講預算是少了很多所以污水建設到底能不能夠像過去有這樣的補助或是我們會面臨什麼樣的窘境"},{"start":152.421,"end":173.921,"text":"或者调整在这里因为次长当下是没有办法的就这部分回答所以部长你的看法呢好谢谢委员首先先谢谢委员委员大概昨天有看到新闻就是我们的产值超人李同森先生他已经可以入住中列祠那也是委员当时在内政委员会的提案是非常感谢内政部那我们跟卫福部一起努力完成也谢谢委员的帮忙谢谢"},{"start":174.161,"end":192.949,"text":"那再來就是有關您昨天到新北市在看有關污水下水道的部分我就直接跳入重點第一個現在新北市的污水下水道的比例在內政部裡面的其實是比例最高的高達11.45%但是也因為新北市的人口非常的多沒有錯那還有就是現在在這個檢討有關財政收支劃分法"},{"start":195.05,"end":213.383,"text":"因為污水下水道對很多縣市長或很多縣市政府來講是一個比較頭痛麻煩的問題因為它牽涉到土地或是人民的麻煩所以我們會想要跟這個包括中央地方政府來建議一下就是污水下水道可不可以單獨把它列為是一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":215.064,"end":235.532,"text":"計劃型的補助而不是列入這個補助款裡面要中央地方來做區分因為不只是有新北市其他都會地區他們也有污水下水道進度不夠的部分那所以我如果能夠朝著這個方向的話也希望我也能夠支持那同時呢地方政府呢他在補助比例上面其實他們也可以多考慮"},{"start":237.045,"end":261.347,"text":"如果以剛剛那個委員所提的樹林三峽跟英哥來看他的這個接管率的比例這麼低還有甚至像英哥現在是快速發展的區域也只有24%不到那就我所了解在地方政府尤其是新北市呢他們現在有12億元的下水道的使用費收入如果呢新北市的政府願意有12億元的下水道使用費收入也把它投注進去做這個"},{"start":262.629,"end":284.31,"text":"這個污水下水道的建設計畫我們也樂觀其成也就是補助的比例呢我們很希望說地方投注越多越好來協助然後不要變成是說因為一般補助到時候那個在地方上面的補助要增加那個中央的補助要降低的狀況之下反而影響到污水下水道的工程進度我們比較不希望朝這個方向來考量"},{"start":285.351,"end":311.433,"text":"當然啦 這個基本上就是一旦中央跟地方可以互相配合的時候其實這個建設是可以施作的很快但未來錢 權到底要怎麼區分或者是要放在一般型還是計畫型的話我覺得這就有賴未來的狀況下我們要做適度的調整是 我們希望朝著計畫型的部分因為它可能跨區那也不可能是新北 它可能跨到桃園或可能跨到其他的建設可以了解 所以請部長到時候再提出計畫來我們再共同來調整啦謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":314.275,"end":318.416,"text":"那對好那我還有其他時間那我想跟部長再討論另外一個部分也就是其實現在內政部一直在推的是社區自主防災那我覺得這個部分其實是很好因為讓這個我們社區的每個人事實上是社會的每個人都可以以社區為單位來動起來在事前的準備"},{"start":335.902,"end":346.609,"text":"是災害當中的疏散甚至是災害後的復原安置等等大家都可以盡一己之力非常好可是我們看到一個問題就是在現在台灣的狀況是災害越嚴重的地方反而是它的條件可能是最差的這包括了地理環境也包括了它的人口結構你看從花蓮光復鄉的災害讓我們看得出來高齡人口佔了將近三成"},{"start":359.637,"end":381.778,"text":"台南市的風災重災區的部分也是都相當的高比例的狀況那甚至呢我回去看我們的新北市如果下一頁如果是新北市呢有可能有發生土石流的地方就是這種災害淺市溪流的部分來講其實它的人口高齡人口佔比也非常的多所以我想要請教的反而是前一頁前一頁的這前一頁"},{"start":384.961,"end":389.282,"text":"我想要建議並且詢問的是部長您對這種社區自主防災的部分高齡化的人口結構這個部分你有什麼樣的看法不然我們眼看著現在的狀況可能被災害發生以後是60歲的扶80歲去避難70歲的還要扶90歲的去避難那這樣的狀況你要這些人高齡人口去復建復原災區可能是很難的部長你有什麼看法是非常謝謝蘇委員的關注"},{"start":411.789,"end":430.891,"text":"這個韌性社區它的建構當然是希望除了公務機關以外其他的民間團體或者是其他能夠協助防災的這些人口可以補助進去所以我們在推有關於社區防災中心防災協作中心也就是未來的鄉鎮區公所要補助的是我們的替代役的人力"},{"start":431.631,"end":455.8,"text":"替代役的人力來協助尤其可能偶爾比較關心像疏散撤離或收容安置這個部分那同時我們也希望大家培養有防災的這樣的一個這個智慧以外呢他能夠用預防性的方式來處理譬如說您剛所提到的除了中壯人口以外的比較弱勢人口他需要做預防性的疏散撤離那這個疏散撤離所需要的除了公務機關介入民間團體我們也希望來推動所以為什麼我們防災市的這個推動現在是速度很快"},{"start":460.242,"end":475.714,"text":"在新北的增長速度是最快的部長因為時間有限主席都站起來了我把我的結論講完啦結論的部分是剛剛我認為是這樣您剛剛也講到說我們要補助然後是找替代液等等這樣的狀況我認為除了替代液之外其實我們有更多的"},{"start":476.974,"end":484.897,"text":"這個外面或者是本地的青壯人口可以運用甚至是民間企業與人民團體都可以加入這個自主防災因為像這次的產值超人其實就是大量的名利進來所以我建議可以討論如何吸引這些青壯人口民間企業人民團體加入自主防災社區的誘因因為目前我們在其他的會議上面也看到了這樣的部分還比較少一點那我建議這個可以研議啦"},{"start":504.904,"end":513.43,"text":"那我們就另外再討論因為主席站很久了其實我們本來就有在往這方面但是重要的是他能夠接受指揮因為你沒有接受指揮最危險的地方或是不危險的地方或者是剛好會妨礙救災"},{"start":524.358,"end":548.885,"text":"所以這個部分需要研究為什麼防災協作中心除了區公所這樣子一個一貫性的指揮系統然後把防災室還有把訓練還有把那個替代役放到裡面去就是要補足這方面不足的人然後再來志工團體未來可能會採取登記制就是如果你登記過來你是可以處理水電的或是你可以處理救護的我要先幫你分類而不是大家來的時候大家就全部"},{"start":549.345,"end":564.708,"text":"部長你這次的講法就已經比前兩次我們在要求這個方向的時候已經具體很多光是一個登記制講出來三個字但實行起來非常的困難那你願意在備詢台上把這句話講出口我們肯定內政部的決心肯定內政部的決心但有太多的細節那我們期待未來可以看到更多更多從方向大綱架構一直到細節的部分它必須要有組織化而且需要有專業化這樣子的訓練那既然有這樣的機制"},{"start":576.77,"end":587.37,"text":"那我現在就再多提再前進一步那如何增加吸引更多的民力進來我也認為可以討論誘因這就是我今天質詢的主題我們會以鼓勵為主好 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因為我跟部長跟署長報告一下因為草案就在我手上 它裡面沒有限制任何的這個剛剛講的說部長雖然說工友的跟工廠的先行可是在這裡面的草案裡面它沒有限制您剛剛所講的任何的這個只有限制工友或是工廠部分它是所有連民生的所有都適用"},{"start":252.231,"end":267.472,"text":"對 還沒有公佈嘛那我們現在看到草案是這樣所以我們非常擔心所以我要跟署長跟部長講一下因為如果你一個光電板你設在一個高樓而且尤其在台灣在工廠跟住宅區跟工業區的分界其實有時候就只有一條馬路"},{"start":269.107,"end":287.275,"text":"那這樣未來民眾何去何從那如果你在高樓頂上面設的光電板因為國有土地本來就是配合政府政策啊我們現在怕的是民間尤其丹納斯颱風摧毀的光電板他不會管你是公有民間的什麼樣的光電板要未來這些在頂樓的光電板誰要去修繕"},{"start":288.817,"end":310.356,"text":"所以我還是要請署長這邊直接再加強回覆一下是不是要給我們比較安心一點如果這個草案真的變成實施下去了現在是陰欸如果沒有做就是違法欸所以我們一直在剛剛也在會前的時候跟部長跟署長拜託像我之前本身啊我本人我去日本旅遊的時候我去熊本熊本都是在農村那兩層樓上面的在射光電板"},{"start":311.291,"end":332.791,"text":"那讓補助讓這些在鄉村的人民他們有自己用使用光電板的權利啊而是台灣我們在人口密集的工業區或是住宅區因為這個法條沒有限制住宅區是免除的嘛在設光電板以後在高樓大廈結構安全這些問題要怎麼去處理如果這個法條過了當然還沒有過過了的話就來不及了嘛"},{"start":333.632,"end":359.032,"text":"那我們到底要人民要何去何從我們想從灘大師颱風已經這麼多的救災人這麼辛苦的奔波如果我們不好好去關注這個法案的修法的話如果一通過那未來何去何從再拜託署長回答一下感謝委員因為的確這一個草案當時在提的時候我們跟經濟部大概都有會商一些技術上的問題也就包含說施工技術的問題那還有這一個事後維管"},{"start":359.468,"end":376.16,"text":"那以及甚至在這個成本分攤的部分都有跟經濟部充分反應過這些問題因為這才是後續三大應該要重視的對可是這三個目前還沒有沒有一個共識嗎我跟委員報告啦當然對於施工規範的部分經濟部能源署雖然有訂定一個施工的一個標準但是"},{"start":376.741,"end":405.492,"text":"就像委員所提到的就是說民眾還是會擔心現在的現行的施工規範在颱風的這個強壓底下強風底下到底能不能過關這個部分我們會跟經濟部再討論再要求還有事後維管的責任還有經費的分攤因為沒有人願意去高樓大廈比如說二十幾層樓的未來誰去更換這都會有很大的問題所以我才說這部分我們在過程當中都有跟經濟部反應因為這部分後續在經濟部這裡去做訂定相關的一個維管"},{"start":406.252,"end":432.12,"text":"那所以這個部分我想現在草案還在審議當中因為現在11月了還沒有定定期限還沒有定定失實期因為當時內政部的新聞稿這邊有寫說在年底會公佈對 原來是希望在這樣但過程當中的確有非常多的這個民間單位也有工廠部門都有提出一些反映意見那這個部分我們都會在所以現在目前為止你們還要再跟經濟部演繹不會在年底就公佈吧不會不會好 謝謝謝謝署長好 那有請部長"},{"start":439.096,"end":465.295,"text":"部長這個是比較政治性的議題在我們115年度的最後一個問題115年度的預算裡面有1.22億的新興計劃那我相信這時候當時新聞你有看到他是1.22億包含捐助這個2025年國際符輪社的場地費2000萬那我相信台灣要舉辦國際性的這個符輪社年會我們都非常的支持當時很多人會認為說這個是不是外交部"},{"start":466.496,"end":487.293,"text":"應該要處理的項目之一那內政部怎麼會再做外交部的工作這個是第一點是不是想請你就是說把大家的疑慮把它給解決那就一起問那因為總共是1.22億那總共2000萬是補助租金的費用那剩下的1億元是用來做什麼那就我們所稍微詢問一下是說讓其他的團體"},{"start":488.354,"end":497.981,"text":"都可以來申請這樣的經費那我是不是可以請教一下現在目前有申請的團體有沒有人已經報名開始申請了那如何才能申請這樣的經費報告委員我想我們是基於要發展觀光要推展會展產業那那個有關國際性大社團他們要過來我們幫忙來處理有關這個展場裡面的租金的費用這已經有潛力不是沒有潛力我們是基於這樣的沒有特別執迷也不是政治議題"},{"start":516.295,"end":544.723,"text":"那你如果是國際性大的社團願意把國外的很多觀光客引到台灣來的話也可以到我們這邊申請還有交通部觀光局或觀光署也有這方面的申請的案件或者經濟部的會展產業都有那我們只是一起協助沒有特別指名什麼團體所以意思就是協辦我覺得就是讓部長在這邊說明清楚那請問現在目前另外的1億元的經費有單位有來申請什麼沒有 目前沒有都還沒有來申請那什麼時候可以開始來申請只有一個我們知道就是"},{"start":546.058,"end":560.861,"text":"福伦社因为他们两三年前就去申请跟国际的福伦社一起申请所以我们知道有这个部分就只有这样而已那本席在这边也支持这个台湾的能见度在国际上是我们是基于这样子的原因好谢谢谢谢部长大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"165033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2c383fc7224a49c13575289a78f60fae5462d9096eb7c9b6787405cc7a6e4ec875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:24:00 - 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主席有請外交部林佳龍部長經濟部政務江次長然後陸委會省副主委經濟部還有陸委會請就備巡台 謝謝"},{"start":18.183,"end":33.564,"text":"部長不知道您是不是知道就是11月4號的時候我們的檢調已經針對就是柬埔寨的太子集團在台灣的這些所謂的不法行事已經台北地檢署已經成立了專案小組那麼來做這個相關的這個"},{"start":36.787,"end":61.017,"text":"包括資產的扣押等等那麼我基本上不是要詢問這個個案但是從這個個案我想透過外交的部分來跟您做一個討論那就是其實我們知道就是針對這個所謂太子集團事實上他的高層透過柬埔寨這種免簽那麼新南下的這個政策其實是不是成為這個破口稍後我會跟您討論但是"},{"start":62.978,"end":83.086,"text":"我們可以知道中國透過經濟的量能不斷的在吸引我們的邦交國棄台灣然後取中國我想這個部分是非常明確的那麼在美國今年的10月14號起訴了太子集團的創辦人陳志之後那麼我相信台灣"},{"start":83.826,"end":112.502,"text":"美國跟帛琉之間其實事實上是有做一些資訊交換的而這個資訊當中其實三月的時候美國的智庫就已經發文提醒警告中國背景的跨犯罪組織是透過帛琉偵測度假村跟土地開發從事洗錢博弈跟詐騙而且更重要的是後面他有這個政治目的就是北京要透過這樣的方式希望他們改支持中國"},{"start":113.402,"end":138.593,"text":"那我們回來看的是 我們看喔這個中國已經促進滲透我們的友邦到底我們要如何來因應我特別整理了一下台商在帛琉的投資的部分其實到了這個近幾年幾乎我們在這個部分的投資它都是處於零的一個狀態我知道部長一直在推所謂的總和外交或者是其他的方 農邦計畫等等"},{"start":140.914,"end":168.06,"text":"但是面對上 帛琉就是我們的邦交國但是這個經濟的挹注的投資就是拉不上來 部長怎麼看我也要順便請問後面經濟部我報告委員 如果是加上2025的話這個數字會上來很多也就是我們籠幫計畫的努力啊 已經有一些成果我知道其實您也曾經希望能夠帶團那有一些 包括我們我也率團去參加帛琉會選總統的就職典禮好 那所以現在的掌握是可以有"},{"start":168.761,"end":170.275,"text":"怎麼樣的一個數字上的提升"},{"start":171.465,"end":200.584,"text":"那因為具體的投資項目現在都啟動了榮邦計畫說雙邊對接那所以我是對未來是很樂觀我也號召國人多去帛琉觀光旅遊以外也可以做投資他那個條件是很好那我現在回過來講其實您剛講這個打擊所謂的這個太子集團還有他背後的中國的操弄特別是透過這個所謂這個包括洗錢那進入去想要去掌握他的產業"},{"start":201.946,"end":216.985,"text":"進而影響他的選舉那進行包括精英俘虜也就是對特定的人鎖定給他一種就是說收買好 那這個我們經過合作因為這個案子我在總統府秘書長的時候我就密切注意了那我到外交部長更是"},{"start":217.586,"end":233.282,"text":"所以為什麼說惠宿人總統他會講說其實中國對於佛羅是處於作戰的狀態也就是說中國用這樣的一個所謂的用滲透啦 操弄啦包括這些犯罪其實是已經在發動戰爭好 那我們現在問題來了"},{"start":237.048,"end":256.781,"text":"我們以前是故邦啦我們現在把它發展成榮邦為什麼要拜託委員會給我們這個支持預算就是說它需要發展因為帛琉可以發展藍色經濟 綠色觀光它的條件很好但是我們怎麼樣不是只是援助而是去投資那這個就是明年因為帛琉要辦PIV"},{"start":257.842,"end":270.782,"text":"太平洋島國論壇那我們把它設定成明年的這個PIV 舉辦的時候要展現我們在太平洋地區榮邦計畫的成果所以現在一樣一樣可以說是如火如荼的在進行中"},{"start":271.687,"end":278.392,"text":"所以說這個2025年之後到2026其實在這個投資金額上面會有展現會已經其實到因為今天2025已經11月了因為我知道的投資項目就好幾項已經確定了好那金額嗎應該可以在明年的這個就是太平洋島國論壇的時候來呈現我站這裡面重點的項目當然有包括他們要發展的所謂的這個"},{"start":302.805,"end":325.948,"text":"觀光這裡面石塑油構型怎麼樣去讓他可以吸引更優質的觀光的投資不管是飯店或是交通還有其他的這一些購物啦還有這些等等另外一個就是用零碳排的一個運輸就是智慧運輸系統還有當然也包括我們對他的這個"},{"start":328.266,"end":353.306,"text":"就是能源相關的整個政策我們的支持而且這是跨國在進行不只有台灣還包括像美國日本跟澳大利亞等國家大家一起在推動所以部長我最後一個問題問你我等一下問其他部會因為今天時間比較短那就是除了帛琉之外外交部這邊還有掌握其他我們的友邦也被中國用同樣的方式在做其他的滲透嗎有那"},{"start":356.57,"end":359.45,"text":"有什麼作為嗎 或者是可以說是哪些國家嗎"},{"start":361.479,"end":387.322,"text":"他們幾乎對每一個國家都採取這種一帶一路然後輸入一些比如說像華為然後就掌控你的基礎設施就進行政商勾結所以精英的俘虜然後再加上資訊操弄這個就是帛琉去年在總統選舉的時候遭受大量的威脅我想包括我們跟美國都合作一起協助他抵擋這些假訊息還有這些所有的所謂的收買"},{"start":390.144,"end":404.014,"text":"讓這個選舉可以公平而惠蘇聯總統啊能夠高票連任我們的邦交也能夠維繫下去好 其實本席就是希望在這個部分真的必須說實話經濟必須要互惠啦我們的邦誼也才能夠奠定在基礎之上那我要問一下經濟部就是其實他們詐團來台灣設公司洗錢"},{"start":409.838,"end":423.001,"text":"那麼台灣是不是淪為洗錢的終極戰太子集團在我們國內設的九家空殼公司當中來進行跨國的洗錢我知道現在經濟委員會也正在針對公司法在做修正但是像這樣的一個狀態跟像一個狀況之前經濟部在整個案件被引爆之前有收到相關的訊息嗎那麼在這個部分現在是不是台灣作為這個亞太洗錢防治組織的創始會員國"},{"start":435.584,"end":446.634,"text":"所以這個部分經濟部有沒有什麼其他的想法因為這部分顯然公司一家一家開但是呢是不是我們在這邊的管理上面過於鬆散我想經濟部會講說他當初來設立的時候都沒有太大的問題啊等等那麼在這後面經濟部作為主管機關有沒有思考過該如何來杜絕像這樣的公司變成是跨國洗錢活動當中的台灣成為這個洗錢的天堂啊"},{"start":462.244,"end":490.475,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會願意台灣成為這個洗錢的天堂所以我們現在的這個公司登記是分為兩個部分五億元以上的是直接跟經濟部登記如果是五億元以下就是委由六都縣市來做登記所以我們有現在有加強強化的管理第一個部分就是我們如果同一家公司對不起同一個地址如果設兩家以上公司我們會"},{"start":491.235,"end":511.617,"text":"要求這個這個申請人要提出更具體的相關的文件第二個我們也已經在預計在12月份跟六都的相關的公司登記的人員來做相關的說明有必要的話我們也會請法務部來派代表來跟登記人員做相關的說明"},{"start":511.877,"end":527.928,"text":"好沒錯因為我想這個次長董我也要問什麼就是你看這九家公司同樣一個代表人連名字都非常接近還有聯凡聯凡二好然後所以伯居伯居二這顯然就是有問題存在你一間公司需要如此的"},{"start":528.869,"end":541.744,"text":"把它擴張而它擴張真的實質它的營運項目到底是什麼這個部分也希望主管機關在就公司登記及相關地方政府在給予成立的時候必須要來做了解最後我想要詢問陸委會就是"},{"start":544.147,"end":554.34,"text":"對於像這樣的一個洗錢集團喔美國在提出警訊之後那麼陸委會有掌握嗎那麼對於說像中國就是用這個方式來做所謂的經濟滲透這個是其實長期存在就像過去一帶一路的狀況喔"},{"start":559.286,"end":579.907,"text":"但是問題是因為身為包括像我們有這個所謂高層來台那像這個部分當然因為我們這個所謂免簽的關係東南亞新南向政策甚至於被報導出來就是因為他可以免費來到台灣那麼這對於陸委會來講在做資訊的掌握上面是不是其實有更多的這個了解"},{"start":581.065,"end":596.793,"text":"這個部分我們會跟像是外交部移民署還有像是國安會還有國安局多多交換這個資料因為在很多的這個法條上面來講的話如果會不見得是主管機關所以我們有的時候是相對來講是比較被動的來接收到訊息之後然後我們再去做啟動一個後續的調查"},{"start":597.196,"end":624.238,"text":"好那最後再跟主席借一點時間就是本席其實一直在追蹤就是有關於中國這種所謂的真偷假偷渡真滲透的方式那麼事實上本席也已經在10月29號跟針對這個蔡明彥這個局長有做過質詢而我也提出了修法其中這個主管機關就是陸委會就是有關於兩岸人民關係條例裡頭我特別要求陸委會在針對這個所謂的"},{"start":626.24,"end":639.84,"text":"這個收容的部分尤其是必須要定期的針對這種所謂非法入籍留在入侵牢留在台灣的這些人士喔那麼依情節必須在針對他們的收容來做檢討"},{"start":641.522,"end":656.067,"text":"因為當時蔡明彥回覆我的是說這只是個案每一個個案的狀況不同那麼我想請問陸委會在兩岸人民關係條例當中有沒有要針對這個所謂假偷渡真滲透的部分提出修法跟修正"},{"start":657,"end":679.356,"text":"這個部分因為時空環境有變化所以以前我印象中的話曾經大法官有示現過所以我們就在那個兩岸人民關係條例裡面把它的拘留天數給明確的定了下來但現在看起來因為中共滲透的情況越來越惡化而且嚴重所以確實有可能有要調整的必要所以未來在這個部分如果有相關的這個修法我們現在已經在應處如果委員有任何的這個建議的話也都非常歡迎委員來給我們一些訊息"},{"start":680.717,"end":699.405,"text":"好最後齁這個還是要再請一下部長那個陸委會跟經濟部可以先請問最後就是當然有關於這個新南向簽證的部分啦我們知道其實為了鼓勵新南向那麼我們當然也是希望新南向國家的人民可以到台灣來但是面對剛剛有特別提到的就是簽證的部分我們對"},{"start":700.345,"end":724.101,"text":"柬埔寨簽證的待遇的部分那麼包括他可以不用這個所謂的簽證費或者是甚至於不用直接到外館去做簽證也可以拿第三國的簽證進入進台灣那麼以目前柬埔寨的這樣一個狀況的時候那麼包括新南向的簽證會做一些所謂的在資格上面的修正又或者是會做檢討嗎"},{"start":726.282,"end":736.887,"text":"會 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Junior这个团体过去在台湾都会喊台湾这样子可是呢"},{"start":34.662,"end":56.074,"text":"他們發現說這個台灣這兩個字呢消失了變成是用地名來取代然後後來在粉絲的抗議之下呢才更改了文字但是還是沒有出現過台灣這樣子那也曾經說呢在現場的時候這些明星明明是喊台灣可是我們的翻譯卻自己把它翻成台北"},{"start":58.567,"end":87.487,"text":"那再来还有就是说见面会明确的禁止要求使用台湾这两个字所以我想这对粉丝来说其实都造成很大的困惑就是在国外也就算了中国的打压我们在很多的场景下没有办法说台湾但是为什么连在我们自己的土地上面我们都还是不能喊台湾还是要配合中国的这种叙事呢来去做相关的一些统战所以我想要了解就是说"},{"start":88.581,"end":117.785,"text":"部長現在大概有了解這樣子的狀況嗎這個演唱會經濟屬於民間的活動然後這些活動都在民間辦我們必須呼籲主辦單位請他們妥善的溝通那自我審查這個部分我想他們自己這些主辦單位自己本身大概也沒有要他們不准我想是個人的意識形態那站在我們立場我想我們盡量去呼籲也跟他們溝通說不要有這個限制"},{"start":119.362,"end":132.527,"text":"我想就是說因為其實我們在許多的演唱會進場之前它都會有一些禁止事項跟安檢政策特別有提到說不要帶政治性的標語但是我想"},{"start":133.919,"end":159.485,"text":"台湾对中国来说就是一个属于政治性的标语特别是说现在有很多的这个可能演唱会的主办单位过去他们在都是中资来台湾落地的那我想这个部分是不是可以明确的来去跟主办单位来去要求说不要对于这样子的一个言论呢做审查因为台湾毕竟是一个有言论自由的国家"},{"start":161.125,"end":176.497,"text":"這部分是不是可以請文化部主動的跟這些相關的主辦單位來去做一些溝通呢沒問題 這個部分我們會來溝通好 那我想這邊 雖然我知道說這個民眾其實非常擔心說因為他們是中資來台灣落地的這些公司"},{"start":177.217,"end":200.668,"text":"如果我們今天去這邊買票我們各自會不會有洩漏的問題據我所知是不會不會有各自洩漏的問題因為各自是在售票系統上面這個部分是不是可以請部長也再確認一下我這樣子的說法是正確的嗎因為我想也可以讓民眾不要擔心這樣子通常在台灣要辦這些活動都必須是台灣本地的公司在主辦"},{"start":201.884,"end":214.011,"text":"對 但是我是說因為他們現在擔心就是說你是台灣的主辦可是其實你是中資在台灣落地那這些資料你會不會台灣收集之後拿回去給中國這是大家擔心的地方在說拍平台上會注意這一點"},{"start":214.955,"end":235.928,"text":"對 所以基本上部長這邊是可以告訴大家是我們大家在售票系統上面填入的個資其實是並不會被洩漏的 對嗎是 沒有問題好的 好 那我想這個就是希望部長文化部要有個態度啦要跟這些國外的藝人還有主辦單位清楚的溝通要來台灣表演就必須尊重台灣的主體性"},{"start":236.608,"end":262.586,"text":"那再来下一个问题就是说在今年3月陆委会也公布了多位在台湾发展的在中国发展的台湾艺人集体在微博转发中国央视的台湾必归的贴文那陆陆续续不管在10月1号等等都有发出相关的贴文那文化部后来表示说许多艺人回应贴文是经纪公司代为发布不知道内容但是这样子的说法"},{"start":263.266,"end":283.143,"text":"合理嗎我想請教部長就是說如果一個藝人的社群帳號代言通通都是在中國公司的掌控之下他還算是自由的文化工作者嗎還是他已經可能成為了中國的宣傳工具那這個會不會影響到國家的文化主權的問題呢"},{"start":285.416,"end":297.406,"text":"關於藝人轉發這些統戰的這個文字我們在處理上非常慎重因為為什麼因為我們我們對藝人到那邊去之後他怎麼樣被那邊的"},{"start":298.564,"end":325.551,"text":"工作人員控制或者遇到什麼困難我們其實真的不了解所以還好這一次有個機會就是陸委會給我們一個專案計畫把這20幾個人交給我們我們官司聯絡這20幾個人都出現問題就是他地址也找不到等等但是我們總算把它全部找到試著一個一個談以後發現他們講的都是一樣的就是他們其實根本不知道誰發這個然後也許是經紀公司"},{"start":326.451,"end":346.057,"text":"甚至於甚至於是有人統一再發連那個控制小控制那個網路的小編他都不是是有人統一發所以在那次我們用一個比較委婉的方式對外宣布我們這個調查過程之後不曉得委員有沒有發現在那次之後的"},{"start":346.977,"end":362.722,"text":"他們的行為就沒有踩到一個我們規定不能夠講統戰的語言那一直到現在他們都沒有再發過類似的語言所以我覺得我們在處理方式比較溫和一點但是有呼籲一點關懷一點我覺得還是有點笑"},{"start":363.479,"end":389.887,"text":"好 聽起來就是說我們現在的委婉溝通部長認為是有效那我希望可以持續的來監督因為之前我們在跟文化部請教的時候都會說因為這個可能沒有辦法符合《兩岸人民關係條例》的三條之一的第一項第一款的規定其中的合法行為因為沒有辦法去界定這件事情所以我想這個部分的話是不是也應該要來準備修法呢如果有人在委婉溝通之後還是再犯呢"},{"start":392.942,"end":418.675,"text":"這個主管機關是陸委會他們我覺得未來在你們可以一起來討論吧因為你們是文化事業的主管機關的確我們會卡在一個原來的限制裡面他到底哪些語言哪些東西算是踩到這個紅線那後來陸委會就講出一個不能講武統不能講台灣是中國的一部分他就已經直接講這兩條不能講那我們就按照這兩條去了解這些藝人為什麼這樣做"},{"start":419.275,"end":442.944,"text":"那未来我觉得一定要从办法上直接改否则我们会继续在因为我们是个民主国家也是个法治国家当我们要惩处它的时候要有一个法律依据没错是就是说我也肯定部长积极的跟大家来沟通但是我讲我们还是要思考的是当已经沟通之后还是再犯之后我们必须要有法人可以来去处理这样子的问题"},{"start":443.684,"end":469.509,"text":"同時更諷刺的是這些人回到台灣他還是可以申請文化部的補助不管是長篇輔導金影視局的補助或者是文哲院的投資甚至是代言我們相關的活動甚至擔任文化大使這代表其實我們現在的制度是沒有防線的沒有防線的我們是一個民主國家過去大家你們也會告訴我們說這是言論自由的一部分但是我要強調我們尊重中國的言論自由"},{"start":470.849,"end":497.488,"text":"卻是在限縮了台灣就是在限縮了台灣的主體性所以我希望就是說部長是不是可以再考慮再補助這些藝文活動或是進行相關審查的時候可以將涉及敵對勢力政治宣傳或統戰內容來納入一個審查的指標呢如果這個藝人之前曾經有配合中國宣傳或爭議或是屢勸不聽我們再補助"},{"start":500.31,"end":519.245,"text":"活動資格和合作審查時會主動提出警示或限制呢不然我覺得這不合理嗎你拿我的納稅人的補助我們說的補助都是納稅人的錢你拿了台灣人的錢可是卻配合中國打壓台灣我覺得這不合理部長是不是可以承諾考慮將這件事情設計在我們的審查指標裡"},{"start":520.256,"end":547.757,"text":"其实我们已经有在做一个比如说如果是交流型的人到国外去交流这些艺人本身就先说的那个限制比较严格其实我们已经公告了如果他涉及到这些言论我们的辅导金我们的补助要收回来这已经开始做那其他的项目我们在逐渐检讨中的确有这个问题就是辅导金到底要给谁然后他如果犯了这个错我们该不该给他这个的确是一个有一个讨论的空间"},{"start":548.646,"end":573.881,"text":"好 我希望部長可以開始啟動討論那我也希望說大概多久我們可以來做一個討論的結果呢這個應該三個月吧 要不要三個月嗎三個月差不多因為我們在內部其實有針對這個問題有一直討論所以三個月後給委員一個答案好嗎好 那最後我快快的講一個問題就是因為演唱會啦 非常非常的紅那其實之前講黃牛票這個問題但是我今天要講的是黃牛詐騙"},{"start":575.442,"end":589.487,"text":"就是說現在他們其實透過很多的假票不僅是烘台票價而且你可能烘台票價你買到的還是假票你還進不去之前我就有說到一個case就是一個年輕人 青少年他存了兩萬塊去買一個演唱會門票結果後來是假票 他進不去"},{"start":590.507,"end":619.249,"text":"所以我覺得我們還是要來處理這個詐騙的問題社會上其實一直有在討論是不是可以建立一個官方的二手票券交換平台之前我們也有跟文化部來討論是說其實文化部要來做這件事情有困難因為沒有辦法驗證是不是真票還是假票這部分我也相當同意但是我們是不是可以來跟這個部會來跟相關的這個售票系統來溝通來討論我們是不是可以提供相關的一些"},{"start":620.35,"end":646.651,"text":"可能不管是跨平台協調的角色呢或是提供平台建置跟維護的一些成本的補助我們是不是可以從這個方向來去來去加強這個二手票券的流通避免真的想去的人買到假票那或是臨時有票的臨時不能去的人呢也沒有辦法出清他的票我們是不是可以往這個方向來討論呢沒有問題我們會繼續來了解這個過程看我們能做什麼這樣"},{"start":647.677,"end":652.543,"text":"好喔 那這個之後我會找相關的受挫票型人來討論那也邀請文化部一起來參加好 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向委員報告其實TIFA就是我們政府跟美國貿易代表署之間的一個經貿對話的一個架構TIFA在94年我這邊有看到94年到現在快30年了對"},{"start":62.239,"end":81.358,"text":"那它最早期的功能是我们参加WTO的时候有扮演一定的角色可是到最后一次TIFA开会是2021年6月30嘛2021年到现在为止台美之间的贸易投资架构协定TIFA是不是都已经没有再谈了"},{"start":82.84,"end":99.961,"text":"還是被取代了被貿易倡議取代了因為貿易代表署是同一批人所以後來TIVA就是21世紀貿易倡議同一批人有時候談不一樣的東西我現在意思是說TIVA我們現在是不是正式要告訴我們委員會TIVA已經被"},{"start":100.862,"end":127.027,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倉益所取代了還是說因為那是同一群人我們忙著在處理貿易倉益那個是準BTA啦再處理貿易倉益所以TIVA那個暫時就擱置TIVA到底還在不在還在因為其實雙方並沒有說要把它cancel掉可是它沒有在動啊就是跟委員報告因為同一批人現在在忙著別的事情先是貿易倉益後來是對等關係談判那我就來問你忙的另外一個事情所以TIVA確實2021年"},{"start":130.29,"end":152.964,"text":"六月底到目前為止沒有開過會了沒有再用這個名義開會那我們TIFA過來就來到台美21世紀貿易倡議這一個在雙方的形容叫做準BTA為什麼加個準他沒有簽到關稅沒有簽到關稅他是一個沒有關稅在內的經貿談判所以第一階段我們"},{"start":154.082,"end":180.016,"text":"是從2022年6月1號開始啟動那你看那個TIFA是2021年6月底嘛所以隔年改成這一個21世紀貿易倡議那第一階段呢當時談了一些法規啦 便捷化啦雙方服務業便捷進入規則啦等等當時還送到本委員會來核備那現在要進入到第二階段"},{"start":180.731,"end":193.183,"text":"那第二階段裡面就牽涉到農業還有糧食準備率還有勞工環境其實比較接近那個ESG這方面的談判了那這個部分現在在談判當中所以我現在要請問"},{"start":194.929,"end":219.363,"text":"在目前川普政府以對等關稅為主軸他認為最漂亮的字叫做Tariff就是關稅可是我們這一個21世紀貿易倡議裡面是沒有談到關稅吧 對吧是那我要請教三位這一個21世紀貿易倡議在現在的川普政府下會不會被邊緣化還有沒有在談"},{"start":222.098,"end":245.655,"text":"像委員報告就是上一次開會什麼時候上一次開會是去年在拜登政府任內川普政府任內沒有開過半次是 因為川普政府任內之後台美就是忙於對等關稅談判你不能老是說他現在這群人在忙這個所以那個就放著就是說大家每一個國家有自己的agenda跟他的優先次序 這個我可以接受"},{"start":246.536,"end":272.634,"text":"但是TIFA剛才我聽起來TIFA被這一個準BTA貿易倡議所取代了可是其實你們雙方都沒有把TIFA做一個正式的停止因為它是一個架構台美之間談的架構搞不好哪一天又重新恢復我不知道嘛它確實就沒功能了可是現在台美21世紀貿易倡議當時是在拜登要建構一個印太的framework"},{"start":273.097,"end":285.682,"text":"然後台灣沒有納在裡面用這個來嫁接的他的背景是這樣子我現在嚴肅的問外交部長我們外交部對這個部分到底還有沒有在談這個東西還存不存在"},{"start":288.564,"end":313.001,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倡議有12個項目啦那已經談了五個千了嘛而且經過國會那要再往前推也有三個項目啊是已經談了差不多但是因為我想美國就是也是政黨輪替嘛上一次談判是幾月幾號 去年幾月幾號 六月上一次談判 剛才那個徐子密有關這一個21世紀貿易倡議上一次談判是什麼時候"},{"start":315.685,"end":342.422,"text":"正式的談判去年五月美方USDR有來台灣後來就沒了嗎後來還是有持續的溝通沒有 後來是溝通一些農業 勞安 環境這些事情但正式談判是去年五月底嘛後來就沒有了嘛那部長我請問是去年五月底後來拜登政府跟川普他們就忙在選舉了對那一直到現在其實已經一年多快將近一年半了喔都沒有再談判了"},{"start":343.39,"end":367.767,"text":"我剛才的問題是經濟部也可以回答就是說在川普目前高舉關稅大旗的情況下這一個準BTA是沒有關稅在內是不是形同被川普政府Pending或者暫時就不處理了這樣描述是否正確報告委員分兩點報告第一個確實如同剛剛所說的"},{"start":368.171,"end":394.305,"text":"USTR現在因為是在跟全世界在做關稅的談判所以呢這個部分21世紀的貿易倡議的相關談判確實是有暫停但是呢第一階段因為都已經生效執行所以經濟部來負責的中小企業的合作這個部分的話我們確實還是有在持續的推動所以這一個倡議有簽署雙方的國會也通過之後前面五項有執行"},{"start":395.586,"end":413.978,"text":"可是後面的談判我們用Pending這個字暫時擱在那裡那目前關稅談判其實對等關稅談判已經接近尾聲了我們是少數最後幾個國家了接近尾聲之後我請教三位這一個貿易倡議會不會繼續然後繼續的時候關稅會不會進到這個裡面來你們的判斷"},{"start":418.972,"end":443.47,"text":"委員報告 因為川普有他的監打嘛那這個部分確實是比較停滯的狀況那隨時可以恢復那因為至於市場准錄啊包括這個關稅因為現在切出來另外談就是我想那個協議最後會簽成什麼樣比如說川普也跟不同的國家在談所謂的關稅的時候也簽了包括像科技繁榮協議或其他的大架構"},{"start":444.531,"end":472.816,"text":"那這個就是每一個總統他有他自己要啟動的這兩個東西為什麼重要其實當時透過這個談判是要讓台美之間雙方進入融入然後雙方更緊密的結合不管在供應鏈跟市場讓彼此成為彼此不可或缺的夥伴關係嘛這對台灣的安全經貿坦白講對後續的關稅談判都有幫助可是我看追蹤了一段時間這個是目前停在那裡我個人表達憂心所以我現在移到下一個題目"},{"start":474.276,"end":498.166,"text":"這就牽扯到CPTPPCPTPP我們從2021年6月2號我們是在2021年9月22號遞交前一兩天好像是中國遞交嘛那遞交申請書之後現在應該要進入的叫做AWG叫做陸會工作小組"},{"start":499.366,"end":527.758,"text":"那英國超快速的因為英國跟他們幾乎都有FTA了所以英國快不能拿來當作台灣的指標啦但英國做一個參考英國在2021年6月2號遞交申請書2024年就成立了2021年當年就成立了AWG工作小組那目前呢像CPTPP遞交申請書的有六個國家中國哥斯大利加、厄瓜多、烏拉圭、烏克蘭以及台灣"},{"start":529.261,"end":557.444,"text":"那目前我們在成立工作小組請教三個單位對成立陸會工作小組樂不樂觀有沒有進度我們在做突破我最近召開了12個國家我們駐當地國的大使或代表那我們有策略但因為現在包括英國加入了然後日本是高市早苗當首相這個新的動能我們怎麼樣去運動突破的策略是什麼我跟委員報告兩點"},{"start":558.965,"end":575.337,"text":"一點就是說其實加拿大在去年當主席國的時候有啟動一個所謂pre-consultation也就是說入會工作小組之前的諮商是可以進行的比如我們現在已經跟某些國家展開雙邊的諮商那基少成多然後第二點呢第二點就是所謂奧克蘭三原則裡面"},{"start":576.758,"end":592.243,"text":"高標準 沒有不良紀錄 再加上所謂共識覺那個共識覺的解釋不能夠任由變成少數的人去推翻多數的決定這只是成立陸會工作小組進行實質的審查我們現在陸會的優勢其實是台灣的 readiness我們大概法規的準備以及台灣優質符合國際貿易的標準我們其實是合格的"},{"start":602.887,"end":627.309,"text":"然後台灣的民主體制我們對國營事業他對國營事業有一些規範我們是符合的然後呢我們都已經做好調適準備了另外一個優勢是台灣在全球供應鏈的韌性以及我們在IT產業以及晶片產業我們有優勢坦白講不只我們需要CPTPP他們也需要我們那我們為什麼需要他CPTPP涵蓋的範圍佔了我國貿易的36%以上"},{"start":630.172,"end":653.436,"text":"裡面我們台灣貿易的前十大國幾乎都在裡面所以這一次加入就等於一次牽扯所有的FTA這很重要但是主力當然中國是一個主力那叫地緣政治主力他利用共識覺所以我知道你剛才講上一次加拿大講的他的共識覺是不能用來當作否決權啦但是這在運作上也就困難所以我剛才請教你們策略是什麼呢"},{"start":655.727,"end":677.322,"text":"現在陸會國的審理方案其實有三個模式一個叫做先來先審先來先審我們就麻煩了因為中國其實中國不符合那個標準這個已經被確定不是第二個叫做準備程度高者先行第三個叫做政治妥協方案六國統統成立AWG"},{"start":678.53,"end":699.159,"text":"那哥斯大黎加比中國比台灣晚送件可是哥斯大黎加呢已經成立工作小組AWG所以顯示CPTPP已經沒有採取先送先審他也許會採取政治妥協或者準備好先審所以你們現在全我們現在我們國家採取的入會的策略是哪一個"},{"start":700.287,"end":724.295,"text":"我們現在就是 當然正面是要成立陸會工作小組那我們也產開雙邊的直接的所謂的前期諮商再來我們也做了一個研究報告 這很重要也就是台灣加入的貢獻是如何 就我們的加持外交我們算出來 包括中經院這些相關的機構是對每個國家都會受惠 甚至受惠的程度如何我們都有量化的資料"},{"start":724.855,"end":742.049,"text":"所以沒有理由說一個台灣要參加CPVT對大家都有利知我最後這樣講我可不可以讓我再一點點講那個所謂的第三原則共識覺我們現在的溝通有產生一些效果就是你反對的人要說理由啊你不能說我就是沒有同意讓你去參加這個工作你要講出理由講不出理由"},{"start":744.411,"end":767.278,"text":"就代表你政治的操作嘛國際政治有時候因為你剛才講的是道理其實按道理台灣就應該參加我們的實力就應該參加我們的準備程度我們就應該參加我們的貢獻度我們就應該參加這叫得利這不叫策略策略就是你剛才講的啊你反對我要講出個道理來如果這是他們的決議那這還有點用如果這不是決議我就反對沒理由你給我加"},{"start":768.667,"end":790.74,"text":"對 所以要對奧克蘭三原則的補充說明如果能夠接受反對者要舉證 說明不然就是政治考量我們最後一張 我最後一分鐘要提醒就是說其實我目前把它分類這12國 大概可以分成四大類堅定支持視台灣為戰略夥伴的日本 英國 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這個好嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":213.317,"end":236.982,"text":"另外想就叫部長喔部長對於藝人啊最近的散兵案昨天呢也有藝人自己自首那我想之前你也有在媒體上也有詢問喔你也有回應對於未來有可能說獎項撤回或者是暫緩資格相關的機制你們內部會做一個討論目前有沒有什麼具體的方案"},{"start":239.827,"end":263.282,"text":"我謝謝委員問這個問題因為這個問題發展到昨天有藝人自動出來承認他曾經犯的錯誤我覺得對我來講藝人覺得自己過去做錯這件事情很勇敢的面對他做錯這件事情跟社會道歉在我們台灣這個社會一個包容跟"},{"start":264.623,"end":278.796,"text":"善良的社会还有民主自由的社会我觉得这是一件好事那至于您刚才提到要不要把它撤回这件事其实我们非常积极的已经跟三个三组人在谈一个就是金马奖一个金钟奖一个金曲奖"},{"start":279.477,"end":304.717,"text":"大體上委員們給我們的回饋大部分的意見都是說在辦法上我們給一個獎出去都是在那一年給在技術方面他表現得最好的那一群評審委員評完之後其中也有人曾經考慮過這個藝人有過剛剛你講的這些問題那他們也把這個東西考慮進去了結果把它頒給他以後我們"},{"start":305.994,"end":321.523,"text":"過了幾年之後或者把它收回來這個理由非常不足回頭看金馬獎從來沒收回過金鐘獎也沒有過就是因為在辦法上大家都承認我們給的是在那一年度表現最好的某一項"},{"start":322.711,"end":349.919,"text":"我知道在這裡我跟委員要講的就是剛剛我提到說藝人其實他對自己的期待應該是對社會有影響力他應該要承認自己的錯誤然後他應該表現得更高的要求自己更高能夠讓他的粉絲或者讓社會觀感更好這一點我覺得才是一個正面的讓藝人會有人主動出來認錯我覺得這個算是比過去進步"},{"start":350.579,"end":368.54,"text":"這樣子讓我打斷你一下我並不是主張一定要獎項撤回那我要講的是說其實我也能夠認同當時他在這個項目一定是非常卓越的表現獲得了該獎項那今天他有爆發出這樣的事情我們感到很遺憾"},{"start":369.221,"end":391.404,"text":"但要不要到整個獎項收回這個你應該要專業討論你剛剛也有說找這個三金相關的人事啊或者是評審討論過但我要講說不一定是收回也有可能用其他的方式去回饋整個社會去協助正面的一個宣導甚至是加強國軍的招募這是我一直以來在努力的"},{"start":391.704,"end":416.3,"text":"希望就是讓藝人投入國軍招募的一些正面形象來做一個挽回所以是不是直接的懲罰我覺得社會大眾都可以討論那也希望您能夠朝向說不一定是直接的懲罰而是間接的回饋整個社會形象的加強這部分也希望你能夠具體的來討論這部分"},{"start":418.101,"end":446.399,"text":"委員這個建議真的非常好我覺得許多事情剛發生的時候你覺得它是個壞事可是經過大家討論有藝人站出來道歉然後未來也許國防部在增兵的時候他可以用到藝人來做我覺得這個idea非常好他可以用這樣子的方向來拍劇或者是拍宣導片甚至是有機會把它做成一個教材嘛我坦白講我在國防委員會我就講啊我說我以前是看那個新兵日記啊"},{"start":447.119,"end":473.061,"text":"被騙去當兵的因為新兵日記看起來都很歡樂啊結果進去實際上是並沒有這麼歡樂但我要講的是相關的一些影視作業如果出來讓年輕人能夠看到我覺得這有助於尤其我要再一次的強調我們去韓國啊韓國是一堆年輕人穿著軍服在類似台北的西門町這種大街逛街為什麼"},{"start":473.621,"end":496.437,"text":"他认为他穿着军服是骄傲的是走在街头不会被歧视的我们要怎么样去打造这样子的一个观感文化部我觉得需要协助国防部所以艺人的一个协助参与这部分我希望您能够去把它列为在这一次能够讨论机制里面好不好这给您参考一下"},{"start":497.693,"end":518.66,"text":"其實我台灣第一部那個軍交片就是我寫的成功領上我蠻有經驗的您的建議非常好我來我們跟國安部來談談看再拜託您謝謝另外想跟您請問就是台中國家歌劇院簡單來講就是國家歌劇院我們整個台中將它交給了中央以後"},{"start":520.061,"end":534.856,"text":"當時都希望地方的權益跟共享的機制要實際的落實那我們看到在民國91年推動的重大文化建設也是我們重大的文化地景最初的構想就是台中的文化中心"},{"start":535.777,"end":551.438,"text":"那當時又隨著中央文化的建設計畫介入整個逐步升格為國家級的表演藝術場館103年完工以後啟用成為全國矚目的文化地標但在這個地方我們看到了"},{"start":552.479,"end":571.54,"text":"這段時間裡面地方普遍感受不到不是共榮而是被邊緣化為什麼會這樣子覺得你聽聽看當年台中市議會喔附帶九項意見為前提通過無償捐贈文化部的一個決議明確要求"},{"start":572.321,"end":596.689,"text":"保障地方的權益包括董事會納入台中代表至少三成的黨旗要保留地方團體以及中央應該補助回饋地方建設等但至今為止我們看到多數條件並不能夠落實事實上早在103年立法院就有立法委員在質詢地方就已經明確的表達過三項的期待"},{"start":597.949,"end":609.203,"text":"我再講一次就是包含總監英語中部的藝術來做一個發展連結董事會應該有地方的席次我想請問一下部長您知道目前董事會有沒有台中代表嗎"},{"start":610.919,"end":634.747,"text":"有兩席哪兩席請說我們有黃國榮跟蔡長海董事好我想這個文化跟藝術方面的一個連結這兩位董事當然是地方人士我們當然都能夠認同但是我們更希望台中能夠就像您剛剛說的有文化藝術的背景能夠再更加的加強"},{"start":635.447,"end":652.961,"text":"不是說這兩位不夠而是說能不能再更加努力的增加席次讓台中的連結能夠加深我必須要講我們更希望文化部能夠落實當年的條件檢討現在的治理架構能夠真正讓地方能夠參與來決策包括最近我在拜託"},{"start":654.349,"end":671.838,"text":"我們台中的國小小朋友想要到這個國家歌劇院前面的廣場閃眼五分鐘閃眼在前面的廣場不是到裡面正式的舞台歌劇院給我的回覆是沒辦法你要用租的"},{"start":673.127,"end":689.482,"text":"國小的小朋友我覺得這個部分能不能給他們一些機會今天我不是只是為了一個孩子每個國家都要培育孩子的文化藝術給他們一些舞台這些孩子哪有辦法去正式的一個舞台去租用去做表演給他們一些榮耀感嘛"},{"start":690.183,"end":703.02,"text":"所以這個部分我希望部長能夠不管是我剛剛所說的一個個案所衍生出來的一個文化教育到現在台中的連結地方的回饋我希望部長您可以重視這個會後能不能給我一些回應"},{"start":704.619,"end":719.458,"text":"好沒問題其實我們有有那個辦青年席位讓年輕人只花很少錢進去看這個部我們有一直在做但是您剛剛講整體的我們是演出不是看喔小朋友的意願五分鐘他可能就是活躍這個我們來"},{"start":720.72,"end":736.86,"text":"研究一下看怎麼做對 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麻煩請外交部林部長有請林部長還有陸委會副主委委員好"},{"start":15.443,"end":35.595,"text":"部長好部長我們就整個外交的這個我們現在進行的方式我們最近看到好像有很不斷的有人在暴露我們外交部拓展對外關係的困境這個顯然好像有意為之我們"},{"start":36.596,"end":58.971,"text":"在近日就是日本媒體的報導裡面愛沙尼亞雖然在2023年對外宣布就接受台灣在該國首都塔林設立代表處可是已經快兩年了日本媒體報導說他陷入僵局原因在於民稱的爭議我方希望沿用駐立陶宛的命名模式稱之為駐愛沙尼亞台灣代表處可是愛沙尼亞"},{"start":64.955,"end":78.945,"text":"堅持是用台北這個名稱那愛沙尼亞政府在日美查詢以後也表達截至目前為止我們尚未收到任何開設辦事處的申請就這個部分部長有沒有什麼樣的說明"},{"start":81.142,"end":94.563,"text":"謝謝委員愛沙尼亞是在今年大概四月的時候國會通過賦予法源所以事實上是半年前我們雙邊就展開諮商有關於涉處那目前是由拉脫維亞轄管"},{"start":96.411,"end":115.445,"text":"那對於我們的這個互設辦事處的地位名稱就在現在在諮商當中所以有開始那不是兩年兩年是他們表達有這個意願就是在政府方面都要經過國會的"},{"start":116.906,"end":119.208,"text":"這個通過一個法源的基礎也超過半年因為如果說從快兩年的時間我們現在不是在乎只在乎時間而是在我們主要在外國設立代表處尤其是沒有正式外交關係的國家我們"},{"start":136.685,"end":158.816,"text":"為了維繫非正式關係推動貿易投資還有促進文化交流以及提供領事服務這是我們主要的目的跟目標那就這個部分尤其部長上任一年多來一直以踏實外交希望跟理念相信國家或者可以合作的這些友邦可以促進互惠共榮深化夥伴關係來達到我們經濟日不落國這樣的一個願景"},{"start":164.299,"end":171.166,"text":"可是我們現在近期看到我們外交的就是應該算是一個亂象"},{"start":172.867,"end":176.889,"text":"有很多的有所謂的亂象部長你聽我講完拓展空間那是我們外交部本來已經在推動的相關的業務過去到現在都是一樣我們現在看到的愛沙尼亞這個設立代表處這個部分有人也顯然發布了新聞而且是日媒"},{"start":196.437,"end":214.415,"text":"去發表的另外還有就是在不久之前政府跟加拿大已經達成貿易協議在僑定數個月後都沒有辦法簽署還有在日前外交部這個算我們有提出一些說明還有澄清可是"},{"start":215.296,"end":231.823,"text":"外交部在美國紐約高檔餐廳設宴然後邀請高層官員出席沒有一個人到場這個顯然都是有人在未消息或者不斷的刻意的披露所以外交部是不是有查查可能有認知作戰的成分"},{"start":233.256,"end":252.69,"text":"這個部分認知作戰我想要請教部長這個查查知情人士是部內人員還是特定的人在放消息打擊外交部跟部長或者真的像媒體評論的可能是川普總統跟習近平要在韓國舉行川習會後然後美國政府對賴總統所率領的行政團隊他的態度已經改變種種的因素部長您判斷是哪一個"},{"start":262.902,"end":277.837,"text":"我們當然判斷是有一波的認知作戰每個case的情形不太一樣認知作戰也有可能是我們國內自己製造的認知作戰"},{"start":278.837,"end":296.683,"text":"應該說這個比較新的發展是透過外媒然後到國內放大當然因為有錯誤我們就澄清因為以我們關心的所謂台美關係並沒有如棄台論 以美論那個樣子去發展所以我們當然是代表台美關係是穩健發展那我們對於就是說這個"},{"start":298.583,"end":323.992,"text":"資訊流啊怎麼樣我們去對這些錯假訊息加以重新分析我們是有發現有一些不正常的地方那是有勢力介入這個裡面涉及到的認知作戰但也不是說每一個這個報導因為有一些是可能誤會比如說像台灣跟加拿大的關係那加拿大駐台代表處就澄清了那至於說有關於愛沙尼亞這個那我們也加以說明確實如委員說我們現在在討論啊"},{"start":326.593,"end":329.136,"text":"那個名稱啊或地位或各種的未來的豁免的這個特權等等部長時間的關係那個說明我們都有看過我們現在是在短期之內都是外銷轉內銷尤其都是外國的媒體不管CNN也好除非CNN是錯假訊息"},{"start":346.853,"end":351.795,"text":"那是他發布的這是美國的事實證明那是錯假信息因為我就是在華府我就在美國啦我不要講華府是在紐約沒關係那個我們有看過你的反駁我現在說的是連續發出這樣子的一個消息不管他是錯假的也好故意打擊也好"},{"start":366.061,"end":394.102,"text":"如果外交部在推展外交事務相關的業務我們內部的剛剛我問的是是部內人員還是特定人士部長顯然沒有回答這個部分因為我們要知道的是有沒有掌握到底是誰在放這樣的消息打擊我們的外交所有的努力有一些是因為我們國內媒體引用外媒那我們有去追蹤這個資訊流就是說這個訊息是怎麼樣那外媒為什麼會暴露出來"},{"start":394.682,"end":420.151,"text":"那就他的來源管道嘛他的來源管道有沒有掌握因為一而再 再而三的打擊我們有適當的掌握對部長也好對外交部也好有適當的掌握可以制止了嗎甚至遊說的團體我們也都有掌握遊說的團體是誰被是我們內部的人員去遊說的嗎或者放這個消息因為會有這樣子的訊息其實很明顯的是我們自己可能相關掌握的內部人員"},{"start":423.192,"end":427.998,"text":"所以這個部分我們在這裡提醒我們也都有在檢視會不會再發生"},{"start":430.202,"end":455.381,"text":"我們要假設他還會再發生我們能夠妥善的來因應所以您只能不斷不斷的反駁去說明那就媒體試圖我們要讓國內外都了解沒關係我們現在要講的是如果這是內部的而且是國內的而且是特定有心的人士在製造我們這樣外交的混亂或者為了藉由打擊外交部或部長"},{"start":456.882,"end":469.997,"text":"這樣子影響我們整個外交的一個推動這是不能接受的所以這個部分外交部不是只有一直反駁你必須要提出來如果這個消息你都已經有掌握要不要公布一下這看哪一件事情啊"},{"start":473.24,"end":481.412,"text":"委員指的是 因為就太多件了三件 要不然你三件都講嘛三件都掌握了嘛 三件都講掌握了是誰你包括遊說團體都掌握了 是誰以CNN來講 因為"},{"start":487.682,"end":494.707,"text":"其實主辦單位都有報我在紐約啊也有照片為什麼他會去引用然後經過一連串的發展變成我們請客沒人出席啊這個完全跟事實顛倒部長我要說的是你剛剛說已經掌握遊說的團體或者放話的人我現在說這個人是誰或這個遊說團體你應該要對外說明"},{"start":511.874,"end":520.988,"text":"就杜益晴啦就是她就有分析這個CNN然後透過國內的媒體的這個所謂的傳播的管道然後怎麼被放大"},{"start":524.161,"end":546.616,"text":"然後最後變成真身殺人這個就是一個個案那我們就開始研究個案做跟國際當然也要去做解釋嘛因為要媒體試讀那有一些可能是是不是不小心去放大還是有些人是刻意去操作我們當然會進一步去把背後的原因找出來所以你覺得是刻意操作放大還是不小心"},{"start":547.711,"end":554.381,"text":"有些是可能意識形態有些是可能這個刻意的都有"},{"start":555.967,"end":579.013,"text":"好模擬兩可喔如果是部長這樣的說法顯然你接下來還是要持續面對外交部也是如果是這樣外交如果受到這麼多的妨礙尤其是內部產生的那我認為其實我們的外交預算有些就被浪費掉了因為你在花錢的當下有很多刻意的阻撓就影響我們預算因為你花大錢"},{"start":579.953,"end":588.036,"text":"結果你的成果是不如預期或者還是被扭曲那我們在預算上面其實我覺得是浪費了尤其我們年年在增加的狀況之下外交部其實這個部分我們要的不是你剛剛大家聽不懂的這樣的說明我們要的是這個到底是為什麼是內鬥我們不能忍受的是內鬥的部分你外面的外在的因素就已經非常多了我簡單再請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":608.63,"end":634.433,"text":"APEC 明年我們會不會參加是 委員好 明年APEC我們當然爭取參加一定是尋利來參加在維護國家尊嚴什麼樣的狀況會影響如果中方還是要刻意打壓譬如說他們昨天也有放話說要在一中原則的情況下但我們發現說一中原則其實不是我們APEC參加的一個過去的一個慣例所以有可能因為這樣我們就不參加"},{"start":635.676,"end":644.666,"text":"我們現在不能夠去做那個因為你必須要做一些沙灘推研在什麼樣的情況之下因為我們主要為了經濟發展這個當初設立的目的大家可以做很多的一個相關的一個交流那這個部分所以我們現在主要是要了解到明年因為畢竟是大陸主辦"},{"start":658.7,"end":673.937,"text":"那什麼樣的情況我們可以參加然後什麼樣的狀況之下我們可能不參加這個部分時間的關係提供書面資料給本委員會好不好最後再利用一點時間不好意思經貿談判辦公室還有經濟部抱歉跟主席接一點時間"},{"start":680.633,"end":689.696,"text":"委員好我想請教一下因為川普總統其實在整個亞洲行其實他也做了很多的宣示尤其之前也跟韓國都已經初步的一個他們的稅率的框架已經都已經差不多細節的談的差不多"},{"start":700.86,"end":708.808,"text":"那美國跟馬來西亞跟柬埔寨也已經簽訂了協定我想要請教經貿辦還有經濟部對於美國馬來西亞這兩個他們的協定有沒有研究我們在研究分析當中是"},{"start":720.394,"end":747.262,"text":"當中 因為他的關稅表是比較晚才公佈的他協議是先簽 可不可以說明一下現在研究當中大概有哪個部分跟台灣會有比較類似的部分有什麼看法從整體的架構來看那就是大概就是美國跟這些貿易夥伴在談的這些對等關稅協議呢他都分成幾個部分包括了關稅非關稅"},{"start":749.443,"end":751.025,"text":"我們大家都知道啦我們現在講的是對馬來西亞其實他馬來西亞他就是會有全面市場開放以及降為零關稅嘛對美的商品對不對"},{"start":766.665,"end":771.43,"text":"以及接受這個部分你們有掌握嗎其他國家你們都沒有掌握那你怎麼去談判比如說你在談判的時候你的優勢是什麼其他國家跟我們的競爭對手包括日韓包括其他東南亞國家如果你們都沒有辦法掌握他都已經透露出來只有台灣到現在還是黑箱"},{"start":785.725,"end":788.746,"text":"那你既然是黑箱你至少必須掌握其他國家他們在對美談判的過程當中他們有什麼樣的優劣勢這樣你去談的時候你才知道怎麼跟美國談啊是 像委員報告我們都有在關注美國跟各個國家關稅談判的情況包括您剛剛提到的馬來西亞或是柬埔寨然後我們也有關注到美國還有跟一些國家其實也都還在談判當中其實還沒有完成"},{"start":811.075,"end":816.478,"text":"他們已經簽協定了我現在講的是馬來西亞他全面市場開放以及降為零關稅然後接受美國的標準不管是汽車或者農產品的檢驗因為農產品對我們台灣來說其實是影響非常深遠尤其是他的檢驗標準不管是他的來租的這全面開放或者開放到什麼程度應該要接受什麼樣的檢驗如果我們全面開放的話對我們會有什麼影響這個有沒有掌握"},{"start":840.572,"end":856.42,"text":"我們台灣跟馬來西亞會有一樣嗎我們都有在掌握美國跟相關國家的談判的情況還有他們簽署的協議內容所以台灣呢現在已經五輪談判了我剛剛提到了馬來西亞的狀況台灣會不會一樣"},{"start":860.236,"end":867.999,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個進展的話就是我們目前在說的內容就是我們在爭取這個調降對等關稅然後及不疊加還有就是232的這個優惠待遇農產品檢驗講這個就好農產品檢驗"},{"start":877.102,"end":883.066,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個實際內容依照美國的標準嗎因為還在談判的進行當中所以這個就是鄭麗君副院長之前反福茂反黑箱他是非常大力的反對今天我們提到五輪了而且其他國家陸續都已經簽了詳細的就是他的協定到現在我們還沒有辦法對國人說"},{"start":904.321,"end":914.425,"text":"至少像農產品的影響或者像一些會造成的影響傳產我們現在每天新聞看到一家一家的倒到現在你們還沒有辦法講這個部分我覺得真的是台灣非常的悲哀這個部分還有經濟部也是在這裡美國對韓國半導體的稅率保證不會高於台灣對不對"},{"start":930.121,"end":947.818,"text":"跟委員報告 其實現在我們根據白宮發布的事實文件並沒有就半導體的部分有做披露所以現在呢 美韓之間還在就現在這是正式的嘛 美韓 美國已經很明確的表達他的稅率 半導體的稅率不會高於台灣 對不對"},{"start":951.081,"end":970.213,"text":"那他們已經有詳細的結果大概詳細的內容已經有初步的結果了嗎我們有在媒體上面有看到這樣報導但是我們有去查驗這個白宮發布的事實文件上面並沒有就這一點有具體的文字的說明他沒有說多少而已嘛他只說不會高於台灣這個訊息對不對"},{"start":972.594,"end":1000.704,"text":"這個是韓方的媒體的報導但是在根據白宮發布的新聞並沒有韓方敢這樣講表示跟美國有一個初步的一個方案的結論嘛韓方才會這樣講不然美國沒講韓國怎麼敢自己講所以兩邊現在的話還在有各自在我現在要講的是我們的黑箱一直在持續今天如果美國跟韓國他們已經達到初步的協定"},{"start":1001.724,"end":1015.939,"text":"他們說不會高於台灣可見台灣的稅率早就已經有一個定案了只是一直還沒有確定所以當我們付出這麼多然後我們的談判還在持續的時候我們談判還在持續我們希望看看別的國家怎麼談的一定要把我們的優勢"},{"start":1022.345,"end":1039.833,"text":"到現在還看不出來我們已經付出太多犧牲太多我們到現在還不知道任何一個結果包括農產品你們都講不出來這個部分我們希望還是有一個比較具體的一個方向說明也可以提供書面資料可以已經到目前有結論的好不好謝謝不好意思"}]}},{"id":"165022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2b0c30e3ae2c4f1da367e5b5a2f2752d0462d9096eb7c9b67858267200b5a9bf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:57:11 - 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謝謝召委 我們有請部長請部長萬維你好好 部長早部長我想這個文化的工作從你上任到現在你有沒有覺得其實項目非常多 樣貌非常廣其實工作壓力是蠻大的"},{"start":28.564,"end":46.609,"text":"其實還好耶因為我覺得文化工作我來這邊所以工作壓力不大 項目也不多 樣貌也不廣不是 應該這樣講我來之後告訴自己說文化工作就是一波接一波的沒關係 我相信很好就是說你也說到了嘛一波接一波其實很多事情要做嘛微信五個就好 這樣"},{"start":47.953,"end":68.121,"text":"當然問心無愧難道問心有愧的來做這件事嗎所以但是呢我想部長我要提醒您啦就是說這個是應該你對自己要有期許我們對你也是要有期許就是說文化的工作其實非常多不管今天要把台灣這個文化藉由這個文化外交各方面的這個形式讓世界看到台灣就是第一個第二個"},{"start":68.581,"end":87.943,"text":"我们怎么让台湾的文化不管在这个素质上面在习惯上面的养成在深度广度我们在台湾内部我们也要加强我想这点都同意所以我觉得其实不会有太多的时间去搞意识形态其实应该回到这个文化的主体我这样的说法您同意吗"},{"start":90.006,"end":116.888,"text":"非常同意因为我自己就走过一个威权时代刚前面一个委员征询我我就是在国民党时代有有有刚才也听你就是回忆了回忆了一下许多年前的历史但我觉得说文化还是回到文化主体比较好我想在教育文化委员会的这些委员们或许大家有不一样的看法有些人很喜欢谈意识形态但有很多人其实就是非常兢兢业业的在协助文化部"},{"start":117.268,"end":145.438,"text":"怎麼樣的來把我們文化部的這個業務做好那我們也都非常支持文化部的預算但支持預算是一件事但監督預算的使用是一件事那我相信部長對於我們的監督也是非常樂於啊然後跟我們不管是執政或在野的委員大家來密切的配合嘛好 那我想我們就回到今天本時要質詢的正題我們看到今天大家也都在談這個公事我請教一下部長按照公事法"},{"start":146.078,"end":166.786,"text":"公事董事的任期多久你不清楚我三年對三年喔為什麼要有任期啊為什麼要有任期啊按照公事法任期滿了之後這些董事跟監事可以繼續到下一期"},{"start":167.694,"end":182.149,"text":"好像是這樣子但是為什麼要制定一個任期呢就是怕其實也沒有為什麼沒有為什麼想制定就制定不想制定就不要制定想一旬就一旬不想一旬就不要一旬因為辦法上好像沒有規定一定要換部長我想我跟您講一下"},{"start":182.93,"end":205.228,"text":"这回去以后你可以再看一下我们规定要三年改选其实恐怕是我们也希望这个董事还是要有一个任期那可以保持我们公司的一个独立性那同时我们定期的接受这个审查跟更换那我们也可以落实对公司营运的相关的监督这一些大概都是有任期我们希望达到的一个作用所以因此"},{"start":206.008,"end":218.3,"text":"這個任期到了我們按照這個公示法也就是今天你都有提到的在屆滿前的這個六個月我們就要開始把這個作業把它完成但現在已經就是delay了將近十個月的時間那在"},{"start":221.282,"end":247.057,"text":"这当中有从媒体本身有看到一个就是说您早上也有提到说这个选任困难的经验让很多专业人士却不满早上我有听您这样讲但是文化部当时也有出来表达说因为被征询的人不愿意因为选任而被羞辱这句话是您可以看一下这句话是媒体文化部的回应这也是您的说法吗"},{"start":249.513,"end":263.192,"text":"這話是我說的沒有錯那請問一下是誰羞辱了這些被徵詢的人怎麼被羞辱了你這個用詞本身要提醒你是非常的重我一定要舉個例子就是我一再覺得公共媒體"},{"start":264.193,"end":281.187,"text":"是一個要非常被尊敬的一個公管集團每一個董事部長我今天時間有限啦要尊敬這件事情不用再講我們都知道要尊敬嘛那你說他們是因為被羞辱所以呢多婉拒那請問一下他們曾經怎樣被羞辱可能怎樣會被羞辱"},{"start":282.488,"end":306.879,"text":"一份工作他沒有任何好處看到前面的前面的人你這樣回答就是在消耗我的時間啦就你這句話你既然今天也說了說因為他們會被羞辱所以他們被婉拒那這個很嚴重我想請教一下你認為啊這些審查委員會怎麼羞辱他們我不曉得那你既然不曉得你怎麼可以說是因為會怕羞辱呢可是過去的經驗中過去的經驗有兩次都是一個羞辱了"},{"start":307.859,"end":324.937,"text":"有兩次是一千天然後有一次是四十九個人刷掉三十個人好 來 部長本席要跟您說嚴格審查跟被羞辱是兩件截然不同的事情我還要提醒你你今天下這個結論太重了他的地位都蠻高的還是會被刷掉喔"},{"start":326.499,"end":349.819,"text":"真你也不能这样讲啊因为他地位很高所以提出来就一定要提出来连审查都不能审查当然可以审但是他本身会对嘛所以请您具体讲一下嘛羞辱是怎样羞辱嘛什么叫做羞辱就是他没资格做嘛什么你没资格做董事嘛OK所以你现在的意思是说提出来以后如果审查委员认为他没有资格这就是一种羞辱那以后你提出来就不需要审查委员啦"},{"start":351.056,"end":378.499,"text":"就不用審查了嘛 只要一審查就是羞辱按照你的說法所以過程中非常辛苦就是他們都跟我這樣講為什麼我要被你提名之後被抓掉部長我想喔這個我可能要仔細跟你溝通一下我想你也非常了解喔在我們過去的相處當中你知道我是一個非常理性也非常尊重文化部的人但是呢今天你說這個不願意被選任是因為被羞辱是您的說法喔我非常不以為然 不能接受喔只因為提出一個人選"},{"start":379.139,"end":387.308,"text":"然後大家有審查審查時間比較久一點或者甚至於審查界我認為不是認你就認為這是一個羞辱這我們不能接受你願意收回這樣的話嗎我把羞辱兩個字修改成"},{"start":393.942,"end":412.896,"text":"痛苦因為任何一個人被我們選中的人他都在他那個領域中幾乎是頂尖的人然後聽大家七嘴八舌把他刷掉沒有面子你願意把這個羞辱改成痛苦我把羞辱改成痛苦好了但真的不能講羞辱喔如果去審查就是羞辱本席跟你講啦搞不好大家還都不願意來做這個審查委員了"},{"start":413.857,"end":426.052,"text":"因為只要一審查這個人被扣上一個盜帽子說你去羞辱人家這不好啦 部長好 接下來呢你剛剛提了很多就是說現在有這麼多的原因喔但是呢終究我們還是要把人權提出來嘛那你怎麼解決這個問題呢"},{"start":428.382,"end":444.507,"text":"其實齁 我跟委員報告我們這個 這個徵選過程是在那個時間到了前半年就開始選我知道 我知道 背景不用再講你怎麼解決這個問題現在我解決啊還是行政院不提你就也沒辦法呀這個"},{"start":445.507,"end":469.165,"text":"其实这个名单应该是行政院提了之后我都知道那我们是属于作业机构所以就是如果行政院不提你也束手无策我们每一个名单都跟行政院很仔细的讨论过这样子吧部长我请教你一下现在到底有几个人选是已经确认的还差几个人选我可以跟委员报告差不多只差一个了"},{"start":469.505,"end":488.219,"text":"只差一個但很好啊那如果只差一個那就麻煩部長吹一吹吧好不好趕快去吹一下跟行政院溝通一下就只差一個人選大家再努力一下好不好這可以做得到嗎我會努力好謝謝你的努力喔那最後我想再跟你提一下文化禮金喔我們看到這個文化禮金的文化"},{"start":488.719,"end":517.151,"text":"也算是我们文化部一个蛮有成果的一个政策但是呢我们的领取率始终都没有办法往上提升112年89%113年86%那么到现在为止大概84%真的是比较低那我们要去思考一下怎么样把它往上冲高那第二个呢我们今年开始事办13到15岁每人发放600块但是到目前为止领取率大概只有63%这非常的低啊可不可以简单说明一下"},{"start":518.967,"end":536.795,"text":"當初我們要把這個年齡降到13到15歲的時候本來就會有很多人提出說他們知不知道他可以領第二個他們如何領那後來我們還是往下做的原因是我一直覺得這個文化這個東西往下降 對所以後來您看到的不是啊 我只是要問您說只有63.5%為什麼啦 63.5%的確是跟16到22歲的比起來比較少"},{"start":543.078,"end":561.54,"text":"但是我個人認為63.5表示說10個裡面有6個人知道了那其實對13到15歲國小生跟國中生我覺得這個成績我們可以再充斥最後兩個月而且我們最近也找到體育部一起努力來讓這個告知多一點人知道"},{"start":561.96,"end":578.802,"text":"部長 所以我想前面的80幾%我們再努力一下63.5%好的政策 拜託喔想辦法跟教育部合作怎麼樣讓13到15歲呢 這領取率提高那最後一個喔那個不好意思30秒就好喔您剛剛提到說跟李遠部長有一個遠洋合作嘛 對不對"},{"start":580.58,"end":597.59,"text":"對好但是呢這個遠洋合作是說如果10月31號以前我們宣布加碼文化這個文化幣跟這個動資券對不對也就是說你在11月30號之前你把這個文化幣跟動資券屬於你的權益你都把它消費完了我們鼓勵消費嘛那文化部加碼200塊的文化幣"},{"start":599.571,"end":615.971,"text":"然后呢这个体育部可能就是一百块动资券嘛那部长我想请教一下我们以目前现在看来将近有一百六十二万人领取了文化币如果我们都符合的话那这个增加的这个两百块钱乘起来本席帮你算一下要三点二十亿猜约哪里来"},{"start":617.421,"end":633.756,"text":"沒有那麼多啦沒有到三點多你認為大家都不會用完一半不是我們大概估算過大概六七千萬六七千萬所以你認為會用完的人這麼少也不是那是什麼其實已經用完用完的人蠻多的但是剩下一些我們想"},{"start":634.517,"end":661.006,"text":"吃雞他在11月底用完了來來來 這個我不要讓那個召委為難部長 你這個數學你有問題啊一回又說大家都用完了那一回又說只會有六七千萬的預算但六七千萬乘回去就是都沒用完啊所以你這個數學大有問題喔所以我要提醒您說如果我們希望這樣鼓勵他們也就是希望他們最好都能用完那如果都能用完的情況之下你裁員在哪裡會後給本席一個說明好嗎是 沒問題好 謝謝"},{"start":663.513,"end":663.836,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"165021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2983e48c04f60c9686e3cb72f09a57cc5462d9096eb7c9b67fad46ac425924a0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:54:42 - 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現在公布長我們再請公布長張委員早 公布長早10月31號路透社做了一個很重要的報導 說台灣化石燃料發電的比例竟然高達"},{"start":47.249,"end":73.209,"text":"87%台灣已經成為淨零碳排的反指標他明確講的這個數據怎麼說他說今年前8個月台灣超過87%的電力供應都是來自於化石燃料這個是亞洲第八經濟體我們台灣現在是整個亞洲第八大的經濟體有史以來化石燃料占最高的一次所以創了台灣歷史的一個新高"},{"start":74.79,"end":103.843,"text":"他還特別講台灣化石燃料這個發電這個數額啊超過亞洲的平均水準亞洲平均水準是62我們87全球是57這意味著台灣在能源轉型啊在主要經濟體裡面人家用諷刺的字眼說我們啊脫穎而出我今天是要問你這個這對國家發展很重要這在國際上很見笑的啦丟臉了來部長我給你看一下這是古年啊"},{"start":105.625,"end":123.178,"text":"誒 那個科技指導那一張部長你記得嗎 你去年那個時候你在這邊打巡你那時候是國發會的主委嘛我那時候曾經引用一個那時候剛好這個聯合國企劃變遷大會啊 COP那時候第28第28"},{"start":129.537,"end":156.416,"text":"那時候我們的世界排名是我們的談判檢探的這個結果是全世界倒數第七那時候我還跟你要求國發會的主委 國民心說要趕快去解決這個問題對不對幾年怎麼過 結果到了我是秘書長任內你選擇國發會主委選擇秘書長那你在國發會秘書長的時候我就問過你說你要去解決這個問題那應該是前年吧是前年 結果你看"},{"start":157.406,"end":174.224,"text":"最近這一兩年你看我們在碳排這一塊在國際上排名都這麼糟糕怎麼辦這不是很沒有面子而且對我們整個健康整個產業甚至這個環境永續還有電價再生能源要趕快來發展因為這個"},{"start":175.509,"end":191.003,"text":"不是用化石的百分之十幾就是再生能源就是因為你的再生為什麼會這麼高化石燃料為什麼這麼高就是再生能源沒有跟上來嘛我們本來今年底我們政府本來再生能源要達到多少"},{"start":191.403,"end":220.866,"text":"以氣代替煤炭的話那個效果是存在的減碳是有存在的可是你兩件事沒有做好嘛對不對一個就是你再生能源的速度太慢嘛你本來今年底應該到至少要20啊到目前還在13 14那邊徘徊啊這是第一個嘛第二個更重要啊你把那個18%的那個沒有排碳的核能停掉了嘛所以你當然就全世界笑你啊沒有18%啦17到18啦三個廠 核一 核二 核三嘛一個大概都是6%左右嘛"},{"start":221.667,"end":238.148,"text":"最重要來我給你看來我們看一下我們美式政府都說我們減碳有成其實我們是在亞洲倒數而且啊現在一個很嚴重你看 沙烏地阿拉伯生產石油對不對"},{"start":240.293,"end":262.623,"text":"人家私有國家他排名206我們207耶連大陸都排在180來來來現在嚴重在什麼地方來看一看看下一張所以我們非核加鹽是不是用健康環境跟電價去堆疊出來的那個部長你看人家走下腳"},{"start":264.976,"end":291.863,"text":"對 我們當然就是剛剛提到的 以氣換煤的話就是往健康方向 空污也減少了你目前只有做了一個就是把煤炭少一點變成是天然氣 用這個來收水我剛才說的你就是把核電用完 核電 第一個核電停完之後造成的污染跟排炭第二個也很嚴重 我現在來講 來 你看一下核能 你看這一張 核能在今年的6月份歸零之後 左邊這個火力發電就一直成長"},{"start":293.749,"end":322.02,"text":"然後你再生能源又被跟上來嘛所以趕快去把這兩個問題要解決好不好來 我繼續看你路透社來講的一件事情就是我接下來跟你討論的他說啊 那大罷免期間啊民進黨立委都在講那個什麼我們小小多山的國家這個路透社說什麼台灣是多山而且人口稠密的島嶼不適合建造大規模的再生能源的這個發電廠所以我們再生能源到底被人家走這件事情出現那麼多弊案"},{"start":323.308,"end":347.98,"text":"特別是光電要好好去不要山跟海都是結果出現一堆彼岸來我給你看一個非常聳動而且非常重要的案子來不然你怎麼看法門北門啊有一個光電的開發案結果十幾位黑道啊赤嶺 你看那新區赤嶺赤鳳的跑到宮廟"},{"start":349.929,"end":378.491,"text":"去威脅當地的居民說你要同意這個開發隔一天人家就去報案了警察官後來都傳去了很聳動的是什麼這些人裡面包括了立陽案就是台南開88槍的立陽案一個主嫌蔡金郎也在裡面你看多麼無法無天多麼無法無天"},{"start":382.52,"end":409.906,"text":"我今天更生氣的是什麼我從7月份開始 民眾求助無門來陳情 我從7月份就跟你指手支跟經濟部 居民要的只有三個前面兩個跟你經濟部都有絕對的關係他說說明會不通知相關的利害人陳情明明是有問題啊第二個 整個光電能力開發的面積不斷在增加壓縮他們生活空間跟生活品質"},{"start":411.84,"end":433.308,"text":"這兩個都是經濟部能源署管的啊 對不對我從7月份喔 跟你所知到現在資料為什麼不給我居民求教無門 立法委員行政職權 要把問題弄清楚你到現在資料都不給我們現在民眾都講 你們什麼光電黑金的門審"},{"start":435.083,"end":455.11,"text":"你們是共患嗎這不是你們該做的事嗎保定為什麼連一個程序有問題了居民就直接問啊說明會相關的關係利害人都沒要吹然後你面積為什麼讓他擴大來我跟你來我給你所知的內容給大家看你看"},{"start":459.056,"end":479.042,"text":"我們請全民來看 當一個立法委員 街道陳情民眾那麼可憐 黑到都找上門了還有88槍的主嫌欸結果要的資料 這是不是都是你主管的我要把它釐清到底什麼環節出問題你為什麼到現在資料不給我"},{"start":480.978,"end":502.286,"text":"委員好 我們來說明一下因為這是好幾個不同的案件那有的當然已經進入司法程序那剛才委員提到司法人家檢察官後來就傳了包括這個主嫌都傳去嘛那我們現在談的是行政的問題啊包括剛剛講的他們陳情不都是你管的你看看 第二項你看這個陳情我手持的資料你看一下你看這個第二項"},{"start":510.151,"end":536.107,"text":"我要你土地性質跟使用分區他的開發用途有沒有變更你當初為什麼要核准核准文件在哪裡第三個你有沒有相關紀錄對不對你當初說明會跟地方協調會你的會議紀錄一定要送到你這邊嘛對不對都出問題了你連這個東西都不拿出來給大家看是的第一項是談的是什麼他們說範圍一直在擴大我說你把所有旁邊的到底沒有擴大給我"},{"start":539.217,"end":554.647,"text":"民眾那麼可憐 那你不幫他們連立委跟你要資料 這麼那個謝謝委員的關心那我知道委員長期很關心這些民眾的關心的事情那大概剛才提到資料"},{"start":555.607,"end":570.388,"text":"刚才提到事实上有好几个案件那有的已经进入司法程序那另外也就是说如果有发生什么弊案事实上我们有一个打击绿能犯罪小组我们随时都可以提供到那个小组那回到刚才委员比较关心的资料你有送吗"},{"start":571.169,"end":594.175,"text":"你發現你有送去那這個資料為什麼不能給司法有司法的這個程序嘛我現在跟你要的是行政的這個資料你為什麼給我是委員報告的就是我們委員在7月14有提到有關那個瑞日那麼有一些民眾抗爭的事情那事實上我們在8月15有給這個委員當時是要我們當時的組長當時的組長他相關的會議的資料那我們這個有把他16場主持的會議的資料記錄給委員"},{"start":600.817,"end":621.789,"text":"那另外委員還有要相關的資料齁剛才講到這些地址 這個我們正在整理那我們完成之後我們就會三個月到現在在整理喔是 因為委員要的很細啊你三天內可以給我嗎特別是第一項到這個第二大項裡面的暗藏跟他們那個開會的那個過程是你會記錄這三個 這三個在三天內給我"},{"start":624.946,"end":641.612,"text":"我們先整理因為委員當時要的資料很多那我們可以先把我們整理好的就提供給委員那陸續是不是容許我們再來三天內可以嗎我跟你講現在地方怎麼傳你啦現在經濟部經濟部已經形象要好了"},{"start":642.992,"end":671.09,"text":"順便寫我們一路會保證 經濟保證現在人家在那邊說你怎麼樣變成光電黑金的門神了啦 共犯了委員長期關心我們很重視委員的這些需要的資料那我們會全力盡力來盡速提供那我們可以先提供我們已經完成的部分是不是給委員那因為這個資料蠻多的那我們陸續整理那慢慢完備之後如果是允許我們逐批的給委員那這樣子可以讓委員馬上這邊也可以同步"},{"start":671.992,"end":677.79,"text":"來作業 已經整理了三個月了現在手上有人趕快給我最晚什麼時候會完整給我"},{"start":678.693,"end":702.982,"text":"我們可能要調閱資料因為委員要的資料最主要是那個現在居民最在意的你為什麼那個暗場一直在增加把他們整個包圍起來第二個明明就陳情了協調會跟說明會有狀況這個紀錄都在你手上嘛不要再經濟三高了你本來要去的就要有了嘛你至少把這兩個這兩個都是現成的你三天內先送到這邊要會議資料我們可以比較早提供啦那有些地目地號那個我們要仔細盤點"},{"start":704.462,"end":717.751,"text":"因為我們怕給未來的不正確先把那個會議紀錄 三天內先送過來然後注意一下 保定你現在是經濟部長我剛才在強調經濟部長久的形象是好的地方已經跟你們陳情然後這個新聞已經鬧這麼大"},{"start":721.609,"end":749.668,"text":"88槍的主嫌都已經檢方都調去問了只要是違法我們現在都是送那個廉政平台一條是司法嘛對不對一條你的行政體系你要去處理啊人家現在賣就是賣力啊畢竟整個綠營產業違規違法的部分還是少部分但是我們一定要把這些違規這個案子就很嚴重了好不好把經濟部的形象做好把人民的這個生活跟他們他們已經受到多大的影響好不好那資料趕快給我好 謝謝"},{"start":752.054,"end":752.075,"text":"好 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我們請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":18.117,"end":35.414,"text":"我想我们有现在推出城乡在地共好能量的提升计划非常感谢台南有两个重点一个是辅城协一个是台南优秀辅城协是从无到有"},{"start":36.115,"end":52.843,"text":"因為在整個國內斜的產業我們台南應該是佔最大宗的就是目前還有工廠在生產的否則現在大概都是用進口外銷這樣的一個所謂平台而已可是唯一"},{"start":53.763,"end":76.59,"text":"有在做實質一個生產製造就是我們比例最多台南所以我們現在輔誠協目前我們也擴大異業結合用我們的社交媒體我們協跟媒體社會做跨產業合作那我要詢問的是"},{"start":79.953,"end":88.565,"text":"我想我们辅诚协开始记者会然后打出了我们的品牌之后我们重要的是通路"},{"start":89.878,"end":117.786,"text":"通路很重要 是在我們台灣的通路是不是可以把我們所有的通路做個Q進來讓他們看到我們台南的鋼這個很重要那我們之前是全家福那現在可能明年是DK所以如果是這樣子的話到底我們這個通路可以擴展到什麼程度"},{"start":119.409,"end":144.057,"text":"有沒有去預計過我們通路現在當然有包括線上的通路也有這個實體的通路那我是不是請那個我們商業署長稍微說明一下那個委員就是俯臣鞋這邊因為在那個年初的時候因為跟刺繡那邊也有相關嘛那鞋子的部分我們在有辦一些展售會我們也主動去有邀請這些鞋業的業者也能夠一起來"},{"start":144.707,"end":160.687,"text":"那未来辅城协这边我们也会跨局处之间我们再办一些展售活动通路或是线上我们都会一起把它有我必须肯定是从去年到现在我们感受到我们终于有被关心了"},{"start":162.096,"end":189.224,"text":"在台南說這個椰子是我們非常傳統的產業我們從小的時候我們家裡大家這樣一間房子然後可能一座椰子就吃一個月但是到現在來慢慢的好像整個需求量沒那麼高我們一直在說的我們實在是我們一箱一箱用手工的我們的品質過去我們的椰子"},{"start":190.987,"end":218.61,"text":"在世界各國 人家說Made in Taiwan大家比一下可是那是多久的時間我們怎麼再重新把品牌製造出來所以很感謝我們有了輔誠鞋這樣的一個依靠那我們現在把它正式記者會公開了好 這個品牌輔誠鞋那我們要問那沒有錯 我們各個"},{"start":220.051,"end":226.136,"text":"经济部所管辖的相关都有尽力在协助可是这个通路"},{"start":227.882,"end":252.092,"text":"雖然我們有網路我們有實體可是我們怎麼讓大家能夠更清楚了解富山A就是過去的made in Taiwan這種的公司請一箱台灣A請一箱富山A它可以外公營因為這代表著我們台南的品牌跟台灣的品牌我們要怎麼做"},{"start":255.014,"end":265.888,"text":"署長有沒有想過那個委員我們這邊可以針對這個協子或是府城協這邊來做一個專案的一個協助輔導那是不是讓我們再跟業者這邊來接洽"},{"start":268.498,"end":295.837,"text":"其实他们已经都觉得你们有在帮忙了但是我觉得我们希望的是真的让很多的产业继续扎根所以这个通路很重要有这个拼白料我们这个通路很重要然后另外就是说部长你记不记得我们上个礼拜一去到我们台南做对谈的时候我们有讲到说辅导"},{"start":297.098,"end":320.901,"text":"我想我們現在有一個很重要的智慧科技輔具我們怎麼從這個來延伸AI加上我們的AI因為現在失智越來越多的案例所以我們怎麼讓這個所謂的AI因為我們都是情侶"},{"start":322.369,"end":349.507,"text":"李佳在失智之前人家的研究可能他會對於他某一個顏色或是他過去的某一個樣態他會特別特別記憶猶新所以我們怎麼讓我們這個所謂的智慧科技輔具如果我們延伸我們用AI輔導然後跟智慧科技輔具跟輔成鞋結合"},{"start":352.891,"end":354.898,"text":"其實這是一個很好的點是"},{"start":355.523,"end":381.916,"text":"对不对因为我们现在刚好都在推这个智慧科技辅具那如果我们可以借着这一次大家开始在讨论失智然后我们怎么用科技的一个脉络然后把我们的长者失智的长者能够保护他让他免于跑不见或是我们可以把他找回来"},{"start":382.956,"end":404.503,"text":"那所以我觉得鞋算是一个很重要而且也是我们可以以前都是用手环的对不对可是手环如果他拿掉了你完全就找不到但是会啊鞋子不会啊而且鞋子它有足迹走到哪里都很清楚"},{"start":405.805,"end":433.888,"text":"所以我觉得那一天跟你对谈之后我觉得如果我们可以把这个用AI然后导入到我们的传产那么写是一个很好的代表性刚好现在大家都在谈失智这个状态那我们要怎么来协助更多这个案例越来越多那个部长你觉得呢我觉得谢委员提醒我觉得非常棒所以"},{"start":434.417,"end":458.099,"text":"不仅把AI跟智慧导入之外我们可以把它形成一个专案那顺便也把那个通路也把它一并一个专案辅导就是除了科技导入之外还有怎么样通路把它设计出来那这个专案里面把它一并的把它形成我请军工中心跟来协助来对部长因为传统产业你要个别去找"},{"start":458.86,"end":480.779,"text":"每一個公司其實有它的困難度你可以先找工會就像你這個我們這個計畫它是以台南市皮革製品工會為主嘛那麼其實我剛提的這個案子你就可以請施策會因為施策會現在都有跟工會在做對接那是不是把金工中心也加進來"},{"start":482,"end":507.669,"text":"然后让AI然后协助他们去做这个转型如果我们可以研发出来说真的这个对于我们在寻找我们万一我们的失智状态的一个案例它其实会有很大的帮助是所以这个部分再拜托了谢谢然后再来就是我们现在地下管线的投资"},{"start":508.749,"end":534.515,"text":"部長這個我其實我之前已經講過很多次就不論是公營民營包括天然氣管線還有我們的瓦斯管線還有所有相關的這個國營事業的管線我們到底現在有多少整合這些系統到底我們建立了沒從新設管線既有管線過去的管線這個部分呢"},{"start":538.618,"end":554.889,"text":"来我们请没关系市长你直接回答就是我们新设的管线就会把那个图资就会提供给内政部的国土署那既有的管线我们也是配合就是除了巡检以外我们会配合他每次在换新的时候就会把图资可是问题是换新多久啊"},{"start":556.105,"end":578.875,"text":"就是说我们会把既有的也已经上传了那趁着换新的时候如果有在做维修的时候再会检查确定既有的你知道吗有些是一二十年了你怎么去寻找这些既有管些的图资我们过去就有图资那只是说我们要确定你们的都不完整我就跟你讲过嘛你连天燃气"},{"start":579.855,"end":605.337,"text":"天然氣 我們自來水都會去挖到天然氣管線台南就有這個案例啦表示你們的圖資是不完整的嘛應該是說早期的圖資它不是三維的嘛那我們現在會趁著這個檢修的時候慢慢慢慢把它變成立體化的然後再也會上傳市長 我就說有些一二十年了你要怎麼把它變成三維"},{"start":606.991,"end":627.74,"text":"沒有辦法所以他們現在如果有漢格的時候就挖到了因為他的深度沒有明顯標示所以你根本不清楚說我這個挖下去而且現在都是用淺遁的直接往前所以這個很重要之前就已經說過我們要用一個專案"},{"start":628.8,"end":646.518,"text":"要求所有的管線系統不只是我們國營事業我們要帶頭我們國營事業從我們的台電自來水甚至我們電信還有天然氣瓦斯要怎麼樣變成一個專案讓他們來提供這些圖資"},{"start":650.362,"end":668.052,"text":"到底我们之前就已经建议过了所以表示都还没建立吗我刚刚就真委员报告我没有请他来因为我们会配合每次试挖的时候因为第一个我们所有工程要在挖嘴的时候市长我已经说了那是太慢了你试挖那请问一二十年前的这些"},{"start":669.193,"end":682.712,"text":"這些圖資 我就說台南就發生自來水管去撞到天然氣管那嚴不嚴重 很嚴重啊因為他資料不清楚 深度給的不對"},{"start":684.52,"end":710.197,"text":"那很嚴重那是剛好有發現如果沒發現他硬依照如果那個當時候在淺頓的這個工程師他沒有經驗的話他硬往前推你知道那時候會發生什麼事嗎所以這很重要起碼那個有極具危險像天然氣管線"},{"start":711.633,"end":740.44,"text":"我們台南已經有20宗以前的公所要命辦20宗的公所你要先處理啊先要求我們民間業者要先給相關的資料啊我們會把那個比較有危險性的像天然氣管然後像電線的管路我們會先把它建起來是啊我們自己以身作者再來要求民間業者你這個計畫一定要出來然後還有部長我們的"},{"start":741.66,"end":767.608,"text":"地下管線電線的地下管線電纜的地下管線我說的因為台南這一次總共兩三千支的這個電線桿倒塌我們到底怎麼編列預算這個很重要我們現在是特別預算那工部門的預算怎麼辦你們有思考好了嗎那天行政院長說好未來會思考工部門的預算要來編列那怎麼辦"},{"start":769.974,"end":792.8,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的預算是台電在編列不是經濟部在編列那台電編列當然我們也會思考到就是說整體的施工的量 是的由台電編 我告訴你台電到時候就說因為都虧損了所以編不出來所以我說為什麼叫經濟部為什麼上到卓院長就是這個問題"},{"start":794.64,"end":817.689,"text":"叫你們台電編你們一定編不出來嘛你們說你們都虧損嘛那重點是這個是韌性電纜韌性電纜要怎麼做我們要實質如果沒有倒了兩三千隻可能大家的那個要求性還不高可是這個倒了兩三千隻天公伯已經跟你講了你如果沒注意後面可能倒的越多那如果我們沒有位於籌謀怎麼辦"},{"start":820.188,"end":830.356,"text":"所以這個我們那個逐步來做啦至於說沒有 你們把計畫發出來到底是你們要編還是經濟部要編好不好 謝謝好 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這邊"},{"start":1722.392,"end":1737.211,"text":"謝謝昭偉那我簡單做一下提案說明因為這次是七法那上次在這個經濟委員會我們已經也做過了說明那這邊其實因為經濟委員會的那一個這邊那邊的修正跟這邊的修正理論上要一致所以我就是簡單做提案說明大概有幾點"},{"start":1738.232,"end":1763.352,"text":"第一点就是这个过失的刑责我在那边的时候是主张因为我们在故意的刑责是一到七所以我们是希望过失的刑责能够变成一年以下比较能够衔接那为什么呢是因为在刑法的设计上面虽然这个故意跟过失常常会有刑度上比较大的差距但因为在这一个海揽割断这件事情里面很容易就是没有故意大部分都会丢到过失所以过失的刑会变比较多"},{"start":1764.212,"end":1790.174,"text":"所以過失之前都是設計六個月以下我們希望這邊是一年以下罰金要提高但是這個也會有另外一個隱憂這個隱憂就是反正到最後大家討論我們並沒有堅持就是因為有時候過失可能是工程的人員又或者是漁民如果設計過高的話會不會產生一種他們對於這些情勢以後會覺得說有過大的責任加在他們身上這也是要考量的情形"},{"start":1790.854,"end":1817.394,"text":"那第二個就是呢因為呢這個其他非法方法當時在電信法在修法的時候這個詞說真的只放在故意沒有人放在過失那在整部這個中華民國的法律裡面從來沒有把它放在過失裡面那因為以前電信法有放過那因為這一次海南七法都抄了那一個的文字所以就變成每一個的過失裡面都有其他非法方法這個在文字上面會有點不合啦但是你有沒有拿掉其實對於食物的運作是沒有什麼差別"},{"start":1817.874,"end":1838.631,"text":"所以我們提案是認為說那幾個字不一定要留在那一邊就是其他非法方法在過失的部分不一定有必要要留著那最後就是傳播法那個海域那我們也跟這個海巡確認過就是那個領海界線以內那個名字有點繞口那看一下要不要做一些這個簡單的修正所以大概我就做提案說別到這邊謝謝趙偉 謝謝現在請蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":1855.066,"end":1877.977,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席將對這個傳播法第8條及89條的修正草案提案說明因為台灣近年連接連發生外國傳播在領海內為常滯留甚至破壞我國海底通訊電纜導致離島通訊中斷本島通訊受阻等情形嚴重影響民生經濟及國家安全"},{"start":1878.997,"end":1900.812,"text":"現行傳播法對非中華民國傳播之行為僅限於港灣停泊規範其他法規如中華民國領海及領階區法並未明定其與我國領海內滯留或非無害通過時執法機關得採取之行政作為造成執法機關執法困難以及無法可罰的困境"},{"start":1901.733,"end":1917.242,"text":"本次修法主要在於補足現行法制之不足增訂明確規範非中華民國傳播除特許或無害通過外不得在我國領海滯留並授權主管機關得命其立即離境處以罰緩必要時得強制驅離或沒入傳播"},{"start":1921.764,"end":1935.912,"text":"透過本次修正希望能強化我國領海航行管理保護海底電纜等關鍵基礎設施安全確保國家主權與海域安全不再受到威脅也懇請各位立委同仁支持現在請林楚英委員提案說明"},{"start":1953.474,"end":1963.641,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位立法院同仁以及出席的官員 近年來我國海底電纜屢遭惡意破壞 今年的一月 順興三十九號在基隆港外海"},{"start":1965.233,"end":1992.883,"text":"脫斷了我們的國際通訊海欄而2月又發生了紅太58在台南北門外海脫斷台澎通訊電纜兩艘都是中資背景的權宜輪這些蓄意破壞的行為不僅衝擊了我國連外通訊更可能涉及中國灰色地帶的侵擾行動已經嚴重危害到了我們的國家安全我想這個部分是全體國人現在都非常有共識的"},{"start":1993.763,"end":2019.825,"text":"那麼為了因應中國船舶破壞海纜的事件立法院其實是在112年就已經修正了電信管理法將保護範圍從國際海纜登陸站擴大到國內海纜機房跟纜線同時加重了相關的法則然而對於犯罪用的船舶或是其他工具的保管問題則缺乏明確的法源依據"},{"start":2020.666,"end":2045.227,"text":"所以本席提案修正電信管理法的第72條明定犯罪工具的沒收及處置規定只要是用於故意危害海嵐設施的工具或是船舶不論是否屬於犯罪行為人所有一律沒收經判決確定後可以依個案情節予以拍賣"},{"start":2046.944,"end":2069.911,"text":"變賣無償供流供用廢棄或做其他適當的處置這一項的修正不僅能解決犯罪傳播的保管問題更能強化嚇阻效果展現我國捍衛基礎建設的決心懇請各位委員支持這一項修法我們共同來守護我國通訊安全與國家安全謝謝"},{"start":2075.577,"end":2082.099,"text":"主席各位委員大家好感謝今天給我這個機會來向大家報告電信管理法第72條修正草案也非常期待各位委員給予寶貴的指導"},{"start":2105.273,"end":2127.468,"text":"首先,臺灣是個海島型國家,對於國際及島際間的通訊仰賴海底電纜,其重要性就如同我們的數位生命線。然而,近年國際局勢緊張,灰色地帶衝突增多,海嵐被惡意破壞的情況屢屢發生,像去年2004年波羅的海事件,以及今年我國海嵐遭受全伊倫破壞事件,"},{"start":2128.228,"end":2155.382,"text":"再再凸顯強化海欄防護能量的重要性以及急迫性根據國安單位的統計台灣周遭的海欄平均每年發生七到八次的斷纜障礙其中大約八成是人為造成的包括魚撈作業船苗鉤損導致因此我們對於海欄的安全防護思維必須滾動調整未雨綢繆做好萬全的準備才能確保通訊不中斷訊息不落空"},{"start":2156.443,"end":2172.28,"text":"對於提升通訊海欄的任性本部分別從三個方面來著手就是事前的監控與預防以及事中的迅速處理以及事後的究責以及"},{"start":2174.002,"end":2198.724,"text":"那個以及改進首先在事前方面我們在法制面我們修法加重破壞海嵐的刑責我們在112年已經修訂了電信管理法第72條第72條之一的規定在行政面我們已經報請行政院將海嵐列入關鍵基礎設施並督促海嵐業者擬定及落實防護計畫與演練"},{"start":2200.586,"end":2216.519,"text":"再來 我們補助新建海欄及微波等一直網路我們督促新建海欄於重點區域加裝盔甲或是增加埋設的深度再來 我們是補助強化海欄登陸站的韌性建設包含建築物的主體 傳輸網路 電力設備以及工程"},{"start":2221.619,"end":2250.452,"text":"我們也爭取115年起單位預算補助建置或精進海欄告警機制然後我們會強化跨部會聯防應變機制在國際合作面方面我們會督促海欄業者加入國際海欄保護聯盟ICPC強化國際合作聯防我們也會督促海欄業者加入臨近海欄維修船區提升可配合海欄維修船隻的能量"},{"start":2251.502,"end":2272.18,"text":"在市中應變方面我們又分別為行政面在行政面我們會督促業者啟動備援通訊第二點我們會督促業者通報及緊急應處第三點我們會在官網揭露最新含染障礙狀況第四點我們會適時澄清不實訊息"},{"start":2277.279,"end":2303.635,"text":"第五點我們將破壞海嵐市政含送地檢署偵辦然後最後在事後的處理方面我們在法制面我們會滾動修正滾動檢討及研擬法規修正建議我們在一一四年在修訂電信管理法第七十二條增加犯罪工具得沒收及處置的規定在行政面方面一我們會督促業者儘快修復電纜二"},{"start":2305.416,"end":2329.919,"text":"障礙的原因分析及应处检讨三 督促海揽业者滚动修正海揽防护计划及应变措施四 我们会争取一亿五年起单位预算我国海揽业者加速断揽修复的工程然后在国际合作面方面我们会与理念相同的国家之主管机关交流海揽防护规范与措施"},{"start":2332.796,"end":2357.167,"text":"有關大院委員所擬具的電信管理法第七十二條修正案總共有十二個版本其中有七個版本與行政院提案一致委員王美惠等二十人提案除第四項標點符號差異外內容也跟行政院提案相同另外委員羅美玲等十九人提案建議提高罰金委員沈伯陽等十八人提案過失犯"},{"start":2358.007,"end":2376.366,"text":"知行则罚金提高委员黄杰等21人提案增订犯罪行刺全部收益没收及不能没收时之追征委员林一锦等22人提案增订域外处罚规定行政院基于维持关键基础设施保护法"},{"start":2377.707,"end":2400.406,"text":"保护法治一致性已召开多次跨部会共同讨论再来大院经济委员会于一一四年十月二十九日三十日审查完俊之电信电业法第七十一条之一天然气事业法第五十五条之一及自来水法九十七条之一皆维持行政院提案本本"},{"start":2401.519,"end":2413.179,"text":"基於關鍵基礎設施處理原則及立法體力之一致性懇請委員支持行政院版本感謝大院諸位委員對於我國海南保護提出的建議"},{"start":2416.448,"end":2440.266,"text":"結語 電信管理法已於112年修正 針對危害海欄登陸站機房或其連接之纜線國際交換機房或衛星通信中心之功能正常運作者 明定罰則本次修法在對於故意犯增訂犯罪工具 船舶或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否 沒收及處置之規定"},{"start":2441.207,"end":2465.05,"text":"以有效嚇阻權宜輪違規破壞我國海瀾與解決公犯罪用之傳播設備等保管問題同時本部也將持續研究及推動提升國家通訊網路韌性措施期盼各位委員予以支持 謝謝現在請交通部陳士凱部長報告"},{"start":2473.973,"end":2493.523,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就貴委員會審查行政院函請審議氣象法 商港法以及傳播法三項法案修正草案委員領據氣象法第21條之一條文修正草案共9案"},{"start":2494.483,"end":2523.522,"text":"商港法第15條及第65條之4條文修正草案共11案傳播法部分修正草案共12案進行審查並且聆聽各位委員的指教跟寶貴的意見深感榮幸海底電纜與管路管道是我國通信以及能源輸送的生命線其安全攸關於國家的安全以及民生的福祉為了強化我國海底電纜"},{"start":2524.904,"end":2542.746,"text":"的跟管道的防護交通部已經配合行政院政策全面檢討相關的法令並且推動完成氣象法商港法以及傳播法等三項的修法作業此次修法重點有四項第一針對危害氣象設施"},{"start":2543.467,"end":2567.724,"text":"新增過失犯刑的刑罰規範第二 明定犯罪之工具船舶或者是其他機械設備的沒收以及處置機制第三 針對三無也就是說無船籍無船舶證書以及無船舶登記的三無船資長期滯留商港無正當旅遊位於其縣內離港為違帽船舶的規範 第四"},{"start":2573.035,"end":2576.825,"text":"訂定我國領海內未發送正確傳播識別資訊未具備正確傳播標誌"},{"start":2581.747,"end":2610.586,"text":"為具備航海日誌的船舶相關規範的罰則透過上述的修法新增的措施我們會同海巡署等相關的執法單位共同的防範不法船舶侵擾以維護我國海域航行的秩序保障海嵐以及關鍵基礎設施的安全以下請本部航政司韓司長就三項修法內容向大院委員"},{"start":2611.789,"end":2621.427,"text":"以及大院委員所提的修正重點以及本部建議處理的意見方向向各委員報告 敬請各委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2634.491,"end":2651.714,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 今天應邀列席委員會 就委員會審查行政院韓行審議七項法 香港法及川普法等三項法案之修正說明及委員女據之相關條文修正草案內容之建議處理意見 請報告說明如下 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2652.495,"end":2673.317,"text":"本次修法說明為避免地震海嘯觀測海嵐受不法侵害 致影響預警時效本部提出氣象法修正草案同時為防範以傳播作為破壞海嵐之工具提出商港法及傳播法修正草案本次修法包括以下四大重點一 針對危害氣象設施新增過失犯刑罰規範"},{"start":2674.818,"end":2689.591,"text":"海底電纜等相關圖資已於海洋委員會之國家海洋資料庫及共享平臺公開從事海域航行或相關工作者應可預先知悉避免碰撞或損害事件發生原比照電信管理法增定危害氣象設施過時犯規範"},{"start":2691.593,"end":2712.375,"text":"二 針對危害氣象設施之犯罪太陽 明定犯罪用工具 船舶或其他機械設備沒收及處置機制故意損壞海欄等行為 影響海嘯及地震預警時效及國家安全慎據故增訂犯罪用工具船舶等設備 不問屬於犯罪行為人與否予以沒收 以嚇阻不法行為"},{"start":2713.616,"end":2735.125,"text":"三 明訂三無船舶長期滯留商港無正當理由 位於其縣內離港及帷貌船舶是規範 針對無船及無船舶證書及無船舶登記之三無船舶或長期滯留商港之船舶 得直接令該船舶於三個月內離港 無正當理由位於其縣內離港之船舶依法沒入之"},{"start":2736.005,"end":2755.927,"text":"四 訂定船舶航行因揭露資訊之規範與罰則船舶於我國領海內 應發送正確的船舶識別資訊及具備正確的船舶標誌及航海日誌對違規情節嚴重者處以最高一千萬元罰還並得另船舶進港未一線完成改善者依法沒入職"},{"start":2757.728,"end":2773.617,"text":"這對於大院委員提案修正之本部建議處理意見有關委員王美惠 李昆城 吳麗華黃婕 吳佩奕 林楚茵 沈伯陽 蔡奕瑜郭雲琴等委員擬拒七項法第21條之一條文修正草案共九案"},{"start":2774.597,"end":2795.863,"text":"修正重點 新增過失犯刑罰規範及增訂故意犯罪用具傳播及其他機械設備沒收與處置等相關規定 令新增故意犯收益全部沒收及追徵規定 建議處理意見過失犯部分 除部分委員建議提高過失犯刑罰至一年以下有期徒刑或科新台幣300元以下罰金"},{"start":2797.463,"end":2819.192,"text":"其餘委員所提內容均與行政院所提草案相近 應行政院版本執行度細精跨部會協調討論而訂定 為確保相關法規的一致性 建議維持行政院版本 故意犯部分考量當次傳播收益數額難以確認 收益對象未必為本國人 致實務上執行沒收據相當困難度 建議維持行政院版本"},{"start":2820.272,"end":2844.492,"text":"有關網美會委員等委員拟據的商港法第15條及第65條之4條文修正草案等11案修正重點傳播長期滯留商港或使用偽冒識別資料對商港及國家安全構成潛在威脅為提升國家關鍵基礎設施韌性 增訂用交通部航港局或指定機關末日傳播之處置方式以維護商港營運秩序"},{"start":2845.272,"end":2861.579,"text":"建議處理意見 委員提案與行政院版本大致相同僅部分文字如持續滯留等用語有些許差異為其精神與文藝與行政院版相近 原建議維持行政院版本3 委員蔡其昌等你據傳播法部分條文修正草案修正重點"},{"start":2862.78,"end":2877.12,"text":"對於關閉冒用AIS 多次更換識別碼 傳名等行為 現行傳播法欠缺處罰規範原理據相關規定 建議處理意見 有關海欄防護部分與行政院版的精神跟內容相近 唯一現行海域法規"},{"start":2878.101,"end":2893.158,"text":"上無嚴禁水域之名詞 原建議維持行政院版本 令本次修法稀為強化海欄防護具有其急迫性 委員所提其他非涉海欄防護部分條文涉及層面較廣 尚需進一步研議 原建議本次暫不修正"},{"start":2894.659,"end":2922.95,"text":"有關委員網美會等擬具傳播法部分條文修正草案等9案修正重點 近年旅遊非我國傳播在我國海域滯留對海域安全造成嚴重影響有必要修正相關規定提升海域防護能量與國家安全韌性 建議處理意見有關委員所提案與行政版本大致相同僅部分文字如適用水域範圍之用語有些許差異為其精神與內容與行政版相近原建議維持行政版本"},{"start":2923.79,"end":2946.176,"text":"委員徐富奎等已據傳播法部分條文修正草案修正重點為推動遊艇觀光離岸風電納管服務以及符合相關國際航運規定原修正相關規定建議處理意見委員提案涉及海南法案與行政版本之精神與內容相近唯一現行海域法規尚無嚴禁水域之名詞原建議維持行政版本令本次修法"},{"start":2947.416,"end":2974.404,"text":"非涉海欄防護部分條文涉及層面較廣 尚需進一步研議原建議本次暫不修正委員蘇曉慧你據傳播法第8條及第89條修正草案修正重點 增訂出特許或無害通過者外非中華民國傳播不得在領海滯留與違反規定之處罰 建議處理意見無害通過之停船及下茅認定及管理於我國的領海及臨街區法已有明定"},{"start":2975.044,"end":2987.407,"text":"無害通過飛屬得與我國領海滯留是樣態若有飛屬無害通過之情形海巡署依相關法令得即可以驅離因此尚無與傳播法訂定相關特許規定之需要"},{"start":2988.752,"end":3011.54,"text":"感謝大院諸位委員所提供的修法建議 本部於行政院指導下 推動本次相關修法作業會同海巡署等相關機關共同強化防護我國海底電纜 其透過有效處置不法行為 維護國家安全及確保民生服務綜商說明 針對相關委員之提案 請提供本部建議處理意見 敬請各位委員參採並會議指教 謝謝好 今天主要先由"},{"start":3019.091,"end":3046.658,"text":"數位部及交通部來做口頭的報告另外其餘五個單位所提出報告請各位委員參佐各機關所送之書面報告均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始進行詢答先宣告以下事項初期委員6加1分鐘"},{"start":3048.007,"end":3065.426,"text":"列席委員五分鐘委員發言登記於十點三十分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於十點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定十點三十分休息十分鐘"},{"start":3077.133,"end":3094.758,"text":"好 謝謝我們第一位質詢的委員 李坤澤召委謝謝何欣淳主席請一下陳世凱部長 呂國成署長 林益進部長來 兩位部長跟署長請"},{"start":3099.577,"end":3114.834,"text":"我先就教於陳士凱部長跟呂國成署長有關於地震的國家級警報關係到人民的生命財產安全的一個重要的保障基礎那在過去我們針對"},{"start":3116.895,"end":3134.114,"text":"國家體警報在當初10年啦細胞廣播系統也沒有建置手機的內部的相關軟體建置也沒有形成一個規格那在國家體警報設置之後那除了"},{"start":3135.41,"end":3152.253,"text":"國家級警報的這樣的一個測試以及相關的誤報的調整等等其實最重要就是海底電纜的鋪設那在過去它其實有三期已經施作那這個海底"},{"start":3153.682,"end":3169.682,"text":"電纜的鋪設各起都有他各自的專業名稱但是通稱就叫做媽祖計畫媽祖結尾了因為媽祖都是神威謙卑不必眾生 大家都合家平安所以通稱為媽祖計畫"},{"start":3171.764,"end":3183.03,"text":"那這個媽祖計畫到第四期是一個重要的階段就是我們第一期 第二期 第三期從東北角延伸到"},{"start":3184.738,"end":3212.908,"text":"台灣的南部在屏東的仿山上岸那接下來我們更要從屏東的仿山往南延伸到這個菲律賓的呂宋島因為馬尼拉海溝的這個地震是所有地震專家大家所擔憂的未來重大的地震以及海嘯這對南部民眾的生命財產安全是一個重要的威脅所以在這樣的一個"},{"start":3214.308,"end":3234.484,"text":"騎乘裡面我們看到本來是預設要800公里後來因為我們碰到原物料的漲價還有南海是一個衝突的高風險區域所以造成了很多的流標廢標總共前後已經有12次的流廢標"},{"start":3235.825,"end":3262.602,"text":"那我現在先請教一下署長我們針對流廢標現在在做第三次的一個招標的修正那我們針對原物料以及南海高風險的衝突造成很多國際的廠商他擔憂這個衝突的風險所以也沒有這個投標的意願那過去也因為標價過高跟風險衝突的因素我們現在要做怎樣的修正"},{"start":3263.742,"end":3290.833,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子的確是一波三折那我們也覺得這個跟委員一樣我們認為從南海這邊的海嘯跟地震對我們台灣南部有非常大的影響所以我們持續的在推動這個案子那過去呢程族委員所說的的確是在標案上面其實能夠做這個海染的廠商也並不多所以我們也接觸了美國日本甚至歐洲這一些廠商"},{"start":3291.69,"end":3319.499,"text":"那在今年我們也提這個預計要提第三次的修正計畫那照目前來看我們跟國內的廠商跟國外廠商是有有些意願的廠商願意來跟我們洽談然後同時也有報價進來所以這一部分我們也依據這一些相關的資訊在提報修正計畫希望委員能夠支持讓我們這個案子能夠持續的在進行部長來補充說明"},{"start":3322.587,"end":3343.457,"text":"我們第三次的這個修正也積極在辦理那並且我們已經有尋求適當的廠商大家的意願其實跟過去比起來是比較有啦所以這次我們比較有把握那只要大院能夠支持我們的預算我相信這個海嵐的這個鋪設的進展就會速度比較快那我們也會爭取行政院這方面的支持"},{"start":3343.897,"end":3369.81,"text":"好 謝謝那我接下來請教一下林益進部長針對海嵐遭破壞的事件頻傳那台灣通訊方面海嵐總共有14條的國際海嵐有10條的國內海嵐當然我們還要再包含地震測報方面的這種媽祖計畫的相關的海嵐那國安局統計2019年到2023年每年海嵐遭破壞的次數達到7至8次"},{"start":3372.791,"end":3397.741,"text":"是 2025年一至四月就已經出現五次了那當然中國破壞我國海南主要有四種形態不管是抽砂船漁船貨輪或者是第三國籍的這種權益輪那因為相關的船籍比較模糊來規避相關的這種破壞的這種狀況那我請教一下"},{"start":3398.601,"end":3419.162,"text":"部長我們針對目前的這些狀況有沒有進一步的掌握或你有要做進一步的說明是 關於這個海嵐方面我們就是從那個事前事中以及事後分別做管理及改進那就是在事前我們要做好監控還有那個預警就是說如果我們就會"},{"start":3420.623,"end":3440.788,"text":"因為這個海嵐它的那個維運事實上大部分都是民間的公司在做的那我們會督促像是中華電信這些民間的公司確實做好這個預警然後發生事情的時候要及時通報然後我們速發部也會在我們的網站上就是公布現在我們周遭海嵐不管是國際海嵐或者是國內海嵐的狀況"},{"start":3442.088,"end":3467.357,"text":"然後事情發生後我們第一個就是要迅速恢復通訊那迅速恢復通訊除了就是說海欄通常都會有備援我們在不管是國際海欄或者是國內海欄都不只是一條那我們就盡快通知業者要求業者就是利用備援的海欄就是讓這個民眾還是可以持續使用網路那再來我們也當然有微波還有就是最"},{"start":3468.197,"end":3482.885,"text":"最後要防線當然就是我們的低軌衛星還有中軌衛星等等然後在事後就很重要一點就是我們要究責把這個壞那個壞人把他抓起來而且要做懲罰就是要讓他們以後不敢再做這些事情那今天我們這個"},{"start":3484.165,"end":3509.547,"text":"就是懇請委員支持 謝謝部長剛才提到救者的問題其實海南破壞它的證據取得是非常困難救者也不容易 求償也非常的困難最主要是國際法它的法規的規定當然海洋法的規範是各國法規管轄的範圍內只有領海之內公海船舶國籍所在國它才有管轄權"},{"start":3510.848,"end":3535.148,"text":"那需要船機國或是船主同意你才能登船檢查另外也追蹤困難證據取得也困難損害球場是更加的困難因為證據力不足無法確認它是否是故意的破壞或是船機國的問題或是船長無力償付的問題這些都是無法實質的這種要求賠償那或者是救者"},{"start":3536.629,"end":3562.403,"text":"我們看到我有幾個具體的建議我們未來這種海欄鋪設前中後應該要建立損害的這種管理機制事前我們必須要針對海欄的鋪設地點詳細的調查針對深度跟環境的不同我們來設定不同的防護層級也要參考國際案例納入"},{"start":3563.663,"end":3578.955,"text":"這種光纖即時的監測的技術打鬧的過程使用ROV來進行水下攝影保存影像的這種證據另外市中我們要強化海域的管理跟各單位強化這種宣傳進行"},{"start":3581.097,"end":3592.667,"text":"證據收集的這種機制 是 那事後我們要偵測 法規要偵測船舶扣押及資產扣押的機制來強化球場的能力 這個請數位部來加強這樣的一個作業是 謝謝委員的指導與支持 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3606.872,"end":3631.56,"text":"好謝謝何新淳委員現在請黃國昌主席發言好謝謝主席麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長好請部長及院長國家安全院委員長"},{"start":3637.484,"end":3654.613,"text":"部長好 院長好時間的關係不宜問候資安及國安賴清德總統強調得非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發布"},{"start":3655.678,"end":3682.704,"text":"補助了國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點"},{"start":3684.505,"end":3699.931,"text":"這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是"},{"start":3700.771,"end":3712.07,"text":"我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個"},{"start":3715.189,"end":3734.321,"text":"這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下"},{"start":3736.052,"end":3762.006,"text":"那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎 是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告 它是舊品第一個它是舊品 那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為"},{"start":3763.706,"end":3786.537,"text":"請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長 院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來加以辦理第一個 他交的是新品嗎你說不是 是舊品嗎對 是舊品好 第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對"},{"start":3790.82,"end":3808.505,"text":"來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是second time對first time是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的"},{"start":3815.881,"end":3841.728,"text":"舊的 還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來 結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書 這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的"},{"start":3843.413,"end":3850.347,"text":"現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有承辦人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的"},{"start":3852.298,"end":3875.863,"text":"他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關"},{"start":3879.825,"end":3900,"text":"這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的 是還是不是他是美國品牌 是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎"},{"start":3902.214,"end":3924.817,"text":"在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對 所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛 不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來看一下進口報單"},{"start":3926.252,"end":3951.112,"text":"上面進口國寫CN CN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收"},{"start":3953.599,"end":3974.295,"text":"閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊 院長我講話比較直接啊 要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失 沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎 院長 你相信嗎你相信嗎"},{"start":3976.693,"end":3999.901,"text":"這一點 審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是擺明了驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊 結果 好這些東西"},{"start":4001.328,"end":4029.509,"text":"中國製的網通設備型號一變再變結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦"},{"start":4030.421,"end":4057.315,"text":"大同醫護跟洪祈昌說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊"},{"start":4061.074,"end":4086.529,"text":"請說明所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎"},{"start":4088.246,"end":4116.59,"text":"最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾好主席站起來我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":4118.271,"end":4144.138,"text":"可以嗎 你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門 進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞 我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover"},{"start":4145.569,"end":4173.092,"text":"事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來治安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎"},{"start":4174.845,"end":4195.541,"text":"好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛尋答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦"},{"start":4197.102,"end":4217.67,"text":"是 這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們書發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個 法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦要不要依法停權如果判決有疏失的話"},{"start":4218.65,"end":4241.73,"text":"要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過 該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嗎對 因為這是第三個 要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該 我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦 驗收不實"},{"start":4243.131,"end":4262.418,"text":"驗收不死 剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔 依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祺昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝黃國昌委員發言完畢"},{"start":4266.858,"end":4278.23,"text":"再次說明我們相關的議事的處理就是每位委員說完之後我們會再給予一分鐘讓委員來做收尾會響鈴三次"},{"start":4282.634,"end":4299.666,"text":"然後再過30秒也會再響鈴三次那都尊重各位委員的發言內容不分黨派都是一樣大聯盟的裁判好求待都是一樣的現在請洪孟凱召委發言"},{"start":4307.867,"end":4315.76,"text":"好 感謝主席 大聯盟裁判都是一樣但我們也期待部會直球對決來 請速發部長好 請部長"},{"start":4324.707,"end":4349.244,"text":"好 部長委員長今天海蘭七法其實我想不管國安 治安都是全台2350萬人共同要求也共同期待也共同要注意的所以我們不分黨派共同來努力但是我想先了解一下說我們有沒有針對我們最需要面對的問題來去對症下藥請教一下現在我們海蘭"},{"start":4350.205,"end":4360.519,"text":"海底電纜裡面到底我們現在有幾條是目前還在進行中斷裂的狀況這件事情是不是可以請我們任慶司來簡單說明一下好不好簡單說明"},{"start":4362.137,"end":4384.918,"text":"好 謝謝委員的垂詢基本上海嵐目前在海嵐的狀況我們在速發部的官網都及時的更新像昨天又更新一筆目前有三個海嵐是有故障的情形三個海嵐有故障是 另外三個是計劃性維修 以上報告好 那最近本席有看到社群媒體平台在昨天晚上有一個貼文寫說出大事 台灣海底電纜又斷了"},{"start":4385.979,"end":4396.486,"text":"那其中這一條他就指的是這個海峽中線1號是不是TSE1來有沒有掌握是這個狀況是不是說明一下"},{"start":4397.165,"end":4421.561,"text":"報告委員 海峽觀覽1號目前為止有部分新覽中斷但是那個中斷不是在所謂的使用的觀覽上它只是一條觀覽中斷那一條海覽裡頭有非常多的光纖只是斷了一條那這一條並沒有影響通訊那我們也在前面已經在公告跟委員報告10月27號已經有把這個訊息有公告出來但是事實上完全不影響通訊以上報告完全不影響通訊"},{"start":4422.601,"end":4451.273,"text":"那不過在這個網站上面它看起來它是呈現是一個中斷的狀況並且它是變成是紅線所以我想也利用這個機會給你闢謠一下或說讓所有國人在使用網路的可以安心因為畢竟我們看到社群媒體平台是有這樣的一個討論而且討論蠻熱烈的所以你說不影響這個通訊那另外一個部分是說那有沒有什麼樣造成的原因是什麼有沒有掌握了"},{"start":4452.001,"end":4471.951,"text":"包委員目前為止我們我還是因為上次有一個新聞事件就台灣海岸斷9條所以自此以後速發部會及時的更新我們的網頁我們先講這個海峽光線1號有沒有掌握它的這個斷裂或是說你說停損的原因是什麼"},{"start":4473.051,"end":4489.405,"text":"目前海嵐在維修的時候目前為止看到是沒有人為的一個情形那至於詳細的斷裂原因比如說自然原因是什麼原因還要等海嵐真正維修撈起來後才會更清楚所以什麼時候可以確認目前為止它現在這個維修它是官方維修還是這個民間維修"},{"start":4490.851,"end":4506.963,"text":"報告委員所有的海嵐維修都是由民間在維修的那目前所以這一條他是民間所有是沒錯那目前的狀況是維修的情形海嵐現在海嵐業者還在評估當中因為海嵐還在釣海嵐船是好來部長"},{"start":4508.652,"end":4533.641,"text":"部長本席之前在外交國防委員會也有這個相關議題的時候本席就非常的重視國安局報告說每年至少有七到八條的台灣海欄對外海欄是斷裂或是說破損的狀況近幾年近三年有25次那本席也問了就是說如果在國安局的這個報告裡面或者是說我們今天所謂的海欄七法其實講白了啦是"},{"start":4534.321,"end":4544.225,"text":"只指一個源頭如果說撇除意外的狀況只指一個源頭就是我們認為是中共中國大陸刻意的破壞台灣對外的一個聯繫有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":4547.428,"end":4571.405,"text":"是關於這個海嵐這個破壞剛剛委員提到其實就是事情的重點因為現在臺灣面對的是敵對就是中國大陸那邊的一些灰色地帶襲擾那他這些灰色地帶襲擾就是讓我們很難去判斷說他到底是故意的還是是無意的他就算是故意的他又裝作是那個無意的不小心就是過失那過失我們又很難"},{"start":4572.065,"end":4595.369,"text":"判斷就是不管怎麼樣我們現在要討論這些相關的修法那你們其實源頭都指的是說就是刻意要破壞嘛是那但是我也問啦25次的近三年25次的一個破壞那到底我們有求償幾次你知道答案嗎是我們國安局這邊給我們的回覆說25次裡面只求償了兩次啊"},{"start":4596.87,"end":4624.098,"text":"那我們也在問是說那如果說你今天我們不管我們的法令要定的多嚴格我們希望是說能夠保護但是兩個部分嘛一個是如果說破壞的時候而且我還問球場是誰來球場也是民間嘛跟我們官方沒有辦法有任何我是甚至講是說如果我們真的講要抗中保台啦民進黨政府要做真的那你陸委會代位球場啊你法務部代位球場啊"},{"start":4625.523,"end":4635.778,"text":"海委會代位求償啊印起來嘛打國際官司嘛也沒有也是要推給民間那中華電信有沒有去處理25次2次"},{"start":4638.343,"end":4658.237,"text":"所以我們現在講的是說現在我們要加強不管是海蘭七法我們這相關的法令能夠加強台灣的通訊安全保障資安我都支持但是我們有沒有做實事有沒有面對到問題去處理問題還是說只要是傳之過來我甚至查到最新一個新聞是"},{"start":4659.648,"end":4670.976,"text":"8月底是他是說一個陸級的船長他破壞了中華電信的1700萬的海纜要維修就到最後侵犯三年是那有沒有球場"},{"start":4671.963,"end":4693.513,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為這些海嵐都是民間機構所擁有的所以當然要訴訟要求償當然是必須由民間的這些海嵐公司來要求那我們真正是不行的時候我們才需要做像是代位求償這種事情所以什麼時候有可能啟動代位求償你這樣講是說有可能喔"},{"start":4694.94,"end":4713.44,"text":"如果民間需求民間處理不了的話我們當然會處理那過去幾年過去三年25次的斷線民間有沒有提過說要代位球場那今天速發部願意跳出來我覺得很好啊是能不能代位球場我覺得如果這樣的話我們支持有意義喔是這個事情我們會不會去研究"},{"start":4715.902,"end":4744.998,"text":"部長是立法院法治局指出法規沒有規定領海外我國海欄被破壞的處罰事項建議修正經濟部速發部都回應如果新增意外的效力條款容易引發管轄權的爭議是建議不建議修正法治局又提說過失損毀應該要負民事責任速發部或經濟部又認為現行民法已經有相關規範不建議修正那不就是玩假的嗎"},{"start":4746.995,"end":4769.471,"text":"你剛又在講是說我講中華電信因為最大的這個業主是中華電信那中華電信的海嵐破壞了過去這三年中華電信還算是我們官方機關 半官方機關結果他也沒有我不知道是說是過去沒有這樣的管道讓中華電信能夠來拜託請求代位求償還是明明有管道他們不願意申請"},{"start":4770.987,"end":4796.859,"text":"那另外第二個部分是說我們現在臨海以外的被破壞的一個行為我們也沒有任何的辦法是 這個關於這個臨海以外我們是不是有管轄權我們在法律上是不是可以去去處罰他這個是涉及那個法律的專業那我們請那個我們法治處處長我們因為這個是國際的狀況我相信不會是只有台灣的台南會被破壞沒錯 沒錯委員講一點都沒錯國外怎麼做"},{"start":4799.73,"end":4815.26,"text":"是我們至少沒有辦法跟美國學習我們跟韓國學習跟日本學習總可以吧那日本怎麼做韓國怎麼做我們有沒有去研究如果說他們公海上面臨海以外日本的海欄被破壞他們怎麼做"},{"start":4816.041,"end":4840.343,"text":"是 包括委員依照聯合國的海洋法公約113條的規定也不是這個113條而是除了有沒有普遍的管轄權應該是除了海盜罪以外其他的罪行大致上都沒有普遍的管轄權也就是不適合在意外行使對於傳奇國的一個管轄那所以 那他們怎麼做如果說日本政府他們面臨到海瀾被破壞"},{"start":4841.274,"end":4864.715,"text":"所以他們也是回歸到海洋法113條的規定來處理也就是只有領海內來做一個執法的一個範圍好啦來部長要扯到後面又講說我們不是聯合國的會員等等的你又又繞回來了老問題我覺得要面對問題我們也希望是說能夠支持但是如果說海外電纜被破壞都無法可管那修法不是等於修半套嗎"},{"start":4865.834,"end":4894.577,"text":"是 但是這個是很殘酷的國際現實我們並不是美國像美國最近那個川普總統常常利用一些海盜就是覺得是海盜的原因去做一些那個境外公海上的那個執法但是台灣並沒有辦法這樣做所以我們還是必須遵守這個國際的法律的這些規定那這個是我們很不幸我們台灣並不是像沒有 如果說你要這樣講的話那我就很期待民進黨政府硬起來我支持"},{"start":4895.919,"end":4910.175,"text":"如果說誰破壞我們台灣的海欄真的有罪證確鑿的話硬起來啊美國政府可以做到台灣政府做不到不是說台美關係史上最佳嗎學一學嘛來最後一分鐘啦 抱歉稍微站起來等一下 我要九分鐘啦"},{"start":4911.016,"end":4929.558,"text":"我看到昨天速發部為了防堵跨境的購物造成非洲豬瘟的一個破口所以說馬上找了Google MetaLine跟TikTok四大網路平台來延商那重點其實主要就是要提供關鍵字就不讓豬肉製品能夠進口我想先請教這個其實這是源頭管理我認同"},{"start":4930.379,"end":4951.685,"text":"就是說你連購物平台上面不管是接下來要進來的雙11你連買或是看都不能看到肉乾肉鬆等等肉製品那你連下單都沒有辦法下單你當然就不會透過平台進來嘛所以現在有可以把握我們台灣所有的購物平台上面都不會再出現有"},{"start":4952.245,"end":4978.939,"text":"外境外的豬肉製品這是我們努力的目標那我們那個盡量用關鍵字去搜尋難免有時候會有些人疏漏的地方疏漏的時候我們發現就會馬上再通知這些平台馬上要求他們更新他們的所以不會讓民眾在購物網站上面可以找到這些豬肉製品我們會從資訊流 金流以及物流三方面來處理可以做得到嘛是好 那本席講另外一個我長期關注的議題是"},{"start":4980.644,"end":5009.449,"text":"電子菸現在在台灣合法嗎這個要問衛福部什麼還要問衛福部你有沒有一點common sense電子菸在台灣合不合法還要問衛福部喔是有沒有common sensecommon sense吧這算是電子菸在台灣合不合法委員好我知道今天有問題點了原來到目前為止速發部都不知道電子菸在台灣合不合法槍枝在台灣合不合法這common sense吧"},{"start":5010.499,"end":5025.967,"text":"槍枝當然要看是使用的人一般民眾是違法的但是軍人還有警察當然是合法能不能在網路上可以買得到槍不行嘛能不能在網路上買得到毒品不行嘛來 那電子菸合不合法"},{"start":5027.528,"end":5047.082,"text":"來來來剛剛你沒有來回答一下一分鐘剛才我的一分鐘很寶貴因為我的了解當然電子菸依照衛福部的規定現在是不合法不合法非常好來那從本席過去也一直從上一任部長我一直講就是說如果不合法的話怎麼可以那麼輕易的我們Google不用打任何的隱蔽的"},{"start":5048.583,"end":5065.031,"text":"隱晦的字眼我打電子菸三個字就可以出現官方網站購買電子菸還可以直接下單然後三天之內他寄到7-11還不用查身份證件我就可以直接來買這行之有年耶那我一直提說你應該是"},{"start":5067.172,"end":5088.161,"text":"不管境內境外 重點來來來 重點在於是重點在於是跟我剛剛討論非洲豬瘟是一樣的道理重點在於是台灣2300萬人能不能用我們的Google我在台灣上Google能不能查到這些資訊嘛如果說你剛剛講說非洲豬瘟我都可以一天時間把四大平台業者找來並且要求他們就是屏蔽"},{"start":5089.221,"end":5115.722,"text":"我不能出現豬肉製品我連讓你下單都沒有辦法下單所以你根本不會買也不會進來嘛我肯定我肯定但一樣的道理那電子菸呢到目前為止你你等一下可以請同仁隨便一個幕僚查電子菸三字你都不用打任何的那種隱晦的字眼就電子菸你就可以出現在首頁Google的第一個搜尋就可以出現電子菸官方網站琳瑯滿目"},{"start":5117.29,"end":5146.416,"text":"三天下訂 三天到貨千元有找 滿千送百 還有會員只要他們新聞部要來要求我們把哪一個網站那個屏蔽我們就會要求所以本時要講的就是說這個東西是一個不應該被任何人輕易搜尋到的對 但是我們訴發部並不是在做言論管制但是到目前為止提了那麼久了我們並不是在做言論管制如果有法源的依據只要衛福部那邊一定有法源依據衛福部從以前到現在陰害防治法就有法源依據"},{"start":5147.376,"end":5165.168,"text":"所以現在又推給衛福部處理不是因為這個是政府的分工的問題我們速發部我們必須做言論管制我想部長這絕對不是言論管制你怎麼會提到言論管制呢違法違禁品毒品販賣在網路上結果你跟我講言論管制我的意思是說這個事情不是由我們判斷就是說這個"},{"start":5166.168,"end":5186.902,"text":"就是電子菸哪些網站是合法哪些電子菸是合法所以本席現在確認兩件事情第一是可以做到的現在技術本來就可以技術上可以做到有法律上創意私房的時候一天內那個論壇就可以下架對 那個是衛福部發新聞給我們那我們現在我也已經不只一次要求前任部長現任部長我也會講"},{"start":5187.802,"end":5202.552,"text":"但是我要求的是不要互推皮球這一點真的是所有國小 國中 高中的家長都很擔心就像棒球隊一樣有那個內野 有投手各自有各自的分工但是我們要合作"},{"start":5202.972,"end":5230.51,"text":"那這個自求自決就是要各自分工本席這一個議題會持續追我也看什麼時候衛福部跟觸發部要硬起來可以共同的讓國人不要受到這個危害本席會再追這個事情謝謝非常謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝侯孟凱 趙偉再做個補充說明各個委員自己的發言時間完畢之後我是經過一分半鐘才會站起來"},{"start":5231.371,"end":5252.11,"text":"那因为我年纪也大了请不要让我站太久第二个大联盟的裁判只是负责好球带那你要投直球曲球滑球四方线二方线升卡卡特晋升球我都没有意见谢谢现在请鲁明哲委员发言"},{"start":5263.959,"end":5278.683,"text":"好 謝謝主席很高興來到大聯盟今天擔任第四棒請我們陳部長我看今天都沒有上來陳部長然後我們航港局葉局長請葉局長"},{"start":5282.662,"end":5311.254,"text":"因為今天開始讀秒了那我也快一點我想上個月跟運安會特別要了一些他們本身的一個業務報告其中看到一個數據就是針對於我們陸海空跟我們軌道鐵道的系列運輸工具他們運安會在針對於很多的一個不管是事故或者一些發生了一些問題的時候有提出相關的建議改善的一個建議列表"},{"start":5312.054,"end":5331.019,"text":"我們特別有注意到 當然公路 水路跟公路數字都比較多那水路水路的等候回復90天以內跟處理中的最高有到目前為止還掛在那邊24件那列管中是17件那是不是這個"},{"start":5332.779,"end":5360.935,"text":"部長你要不要先概略整體回答一下水路這個部分數字在運安會提出希望你們建議怎麼改善之後這樣的一個數字掛將正不正常是 報告委員如果是掛這麼高的數字當然是要檢討這個部分我們有特別會去做檢討那另外運安會成立到現在一一四年九月為止涉及航港局的這個建議改善的事項有七十九項"},{"start":5361.735,"end":5378.167,"text":"那已經解除列管的有67項也就是說目前列管的剩下12項那目前是這個狀況跟港港局比較相關的但是委員所提出的這個數據我認為港港局要再更積極一點在尤其是安全面啦安全面我們真的要慎重一些"},{"start":5378.567,"end":5394.858,"text":"好我想針對水路的部分當然分成兩類有屬於商港類的話還是屬於航港局也有一些水路是地方的漁船漁港的部分可能是屬於漁業署或者地方政府其他機關要改善的那我們待會會把它去掉"},{"start":5395.578,"end":5419.603,"text":"但是相對的我是覺得是業務量大業務量看起來是蠻大的如果說在第一階段二次事件等候回覆處理中他的規定是90天但我們現在發覺審計報告特別說你們來來回回的次數特別多所以說一直在寫了報告然後又不行你處理方式好像又不行這樣的來來去去的一個情況是"},{"start":5421.443,"end":5445.342,"text":"可以講說是水路這個部分 航港局的部分我是覺得應該 是不是人力不夠 我不太清楚那尤其列管中就沉入剛剛部長說的因為當發生一個問題我們的運安會他提出來一個專業的意見然後希望你們能夠落實去改善最終的改善又不是變成一個這個紙上的文書 paperwork所以在你們"},{"start":5447.895,"end":5470.145,"text":"當確實你的計畫他說OK了然後把它變成列管就你有實際的作為不管透過了表格人力或者實際的進場去這個改革完畢之後就列管會解除那行政局我們葉局長你說一下好不好因為列管的一個比例我們特別看到我們不要談比例就是說其中最早的有2022年"},{"start":5471.966,"end":5492.575,"text":"三月份的 到現在是三年半那他一開始列管那坦白講你也解決了不少件嘛那有一些像飲水人跟我們所有船舶進出港一些風險安全的蠻多的這個部分列管中這樣的一個效率是不是能夠再把它加強一下"},{"start":5494.027,"end":5509.192,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個這個催訓那跟委員報告現在列管的12項裡面最主要還是涉及法規的修正那因此呢所需要時間比較長那這邊涉及到飲水法我們的航路標示條例那還有這個"},{"start":5510.772,"end":5526.529,"text":"相關的這個包括人力的這個調整我們現在把這個運安會的包括飲水航路標示條例這一些的修法都列為優先重要事項在列管我們的航路標示條例現在已經"},{"start":5527.569,"end":5548.615,"text":"報佈在審議當中那飲水法最遲在12月底前也都會報佈所以跟委員報告我們針對運安會的列管事項一項是列為最優先我們持續在管控好 我覺得列管要解決是你工作最重要的一個目標那這個部分我們特別看到17項"},{"start":5549.935,"end":5575.787,"text":"的列管的一個部分當然有一些屬於地方政府的有一些屬於漁業署的或者甚至其他單位的但是有11到12項是屬於交通部跟航港局的這裡面因為有一些要修改法規的要到部裡面去也希望部長能夠全力的加快效率好不好好 那第二個就是看到審議報告特別說這個部分其實我跟局長也特別說過我是有點憂心"},{"start":5577.128,"end":5602.784,"text":"那為了你們強化港口進出管理的機制事實上港港局已經從你們建設基金撥了1.3億建置第二代的MT-NET應該把它更完整更有效率然後不要有能夠可以講說品質整個提升但是審計部的一個報告的意見你也看到了現在有公開的他說但你這個系統他覺得似乎有點不太夠因為他認為你的審核標準"},{"start":5604.065,"end":5618.35,"text":"不夠完備啦不利有效預防預防高風險的一個船舶進入那舉例說明它從108年到去年的11月統計有15艘三港的一個船隻被傳統遺棄"},{"start":5620.931,"end":5640.366,"text":"被傳動儀器那這個部分其實在過去我們看到你自己自己的一個報告甚至港公司的報告都沒有提及這個問題發現這個問題呢事實上是ITF就是有一個國際運輸工人聯合會他們就統計嘛權益怎麼又因為船被"},{"start":5641.167,"end":5655.573,"text":"一夕 那這個船員搞不好薪水領不到什麼也沒有嘛所以他們就是對於全世界的一個船隻都做一個統計所以統計到去年11月他發現在航港局的港口航港局港口就有15艦"},{"start":5657.093,"end":5685.11,"text":"15件 那時候我剛開始問你的時候其實你也沒有很清楚 還沒有很清楚好 但是我們最新問你謝謝你 你說這15件都解決完畢了嘛15件都已經促使船東處理完畢了 是不是是 報告員15件全部都處理完畢不是已經出港就是船舶都已經做了處理 拆解船舶怎麼處理 把它消滅掉還是怎樣拆解 那船員都已經這個協助返國"},{"start":5686.07,"end":5712.988,"text":"好 那我們來看喔 這個是審計部提出來的一個報告那也謝謝啦 至少別人有提醒你馬上處理嘛 我覺得不錯但是我們這個三天之內 我們就請教你那請教呢 第一個回覆當然就是全部解決審計部的報告但第二個 我們就一直在問你說因為是到去年11月的嘛那到現在又快了10個月了那有沒有新生的案件在航港就列款列款在商港那你們說"},{"start":5715.31,"end":5738.269,"text":"就是你們承辦人啊 不是你啊承辦人就說 目前沒有 全部都解決完畢了這個是這樣嗎 是這樣嗎當然我答案都寫在這裡嘛 是這樣嗎報告委員 我們現在跟港務公司有建立一個每個月兩次的一個清查機制就是在港內沒有 超過兩週沒有作業的傳播我們都會把它做一個清查"},{"start":5738.769,"end":5759.214,"text":"那要如果不是合理的這個治港的這個原因我們會要求來移駁或盡快的離港那到10月31號為止並不是沒有治港的傳播目前統計所有的三港有33艘那這些主要的原因是等待整修或是港口國的這個管制檢查缺失"},{"start":5759.854,"end":5784.648,"text":"正在改善所以我說我要拜託你就是說因為整個你是一個team你是一個不管誰答都代表你我們問了兩次沒有了15件都處理完了那今年的呢沒講但是我們就是國際的網站一查就查出來還有這麼多件除了東營島不是你的是地方政府或者漁業署的其他都是你的我覺得這個部分這個就主動積極你們倆這個開會的過程"},{"start":5788.57,"end":5809.836,"text":"要把這樣的一個案件尤其是涉到國際的一個工人而且有國際網站在評價我們特別注意另外有很多的權益傳權益傳我覺得也不斷在建議他說我們在澳洲的部分他就針對於說能夠在營業不善的部分甚至在"},{"start":5811.195,"end":5827.29,"text":"港口國有管制檢查記錄這些船隻他全部有記錄他要進港的時候就預先管制這個未來會不會朝這個方向來做修法之後會朝這個方向來做嗎對 更為你報告修法部門這次已經納進來那如果他這個"},{"start":5829.792,"end":5856.01,"text":"我們我們現在在6月25號已經發布一個禁止進港的一個這個行政命令那這個是依照香港法第49條也就是說他在如果在我們的海域有這個好OK因為時間到了裁判長站起來了那個但我希望能夠預先處理不然留下來都是我們工作人員我們包括你們的航港局港務公司後續的辛苦如果能夠預防是最好謝謝"},{"start":5858.852,"end":5865.255,"text":"好謝謝魯明哲委員現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席主席請速發部林部長請林部長然後請國家通訊重播委員會黃祖密請黃文哲祖密"},{"start":5889.09,"end":5898.479,"text":"委員長 部長早 主委早這個最近 今天已經開始要發這個1萬塊 是那我看了一下"},{"start":5901.136,"end":5922.096,"text":"我們最近有這個四個假的財政部網站曝光然後普發現金登記前先請認清楚網址那我們也做了宣導政府也做了宣導所以我們叫gov.tw才是真的網站對不對這個是我們一直在宣導好 來下一頁"},{"start":5923.648,"end":5937.834,"text":"那部長跟祖密你們覺得這三個王子哪一個是真的哪一個哪些是假哪一個是真哪一個是假第三個絕對是假的你一個一個來我等一下會問祖密祖密先回答好了第一個第一個應該第一個應該是真的啦第二個的話應該是假的第三個的話"},{"start":5956.713,"end":5964.879,"text":"第三個可能很難判斷因為他的那個 我們現場還有我們現場還有內政部有來嘛那個視察 你覺得哪一個是真的哪一個是假的E3啦 你認為E3是真的那E3還是E2只有E是真的 那能源署呢"},{"start":5988.134,"end":6015.78,"text":"可能都是假的好現場有覺得除了一是真的之外第二個覺得是真的人請舉手第二個政府宣傳嘛gov.tw是真的網站第二個認為有沒有是真的第二個認為是假的舉手好所以有人遲疑啦沒有舉手嘛有人真的也沒舉手假的也沒舉手換言之不大知道是真假"},{"start":6017.369,"end":6046.612,"text":"部長你覺得哪一個是真的只有第一個是真的 其他都是假的部長你不能錯 其他很錯這樣我壓力很大對 你絕對不能錯你錯了這個點就丟大但是我現在用目視判斷第一個是真的 第三個是假的第二個我會回去確認因為我要確認他的那個他的那個字型會不會gov其實那是個0或者怎麼樣就有一些trick"},{"start":6046.992,"end":6069.428,"text":"那個技巧他就是GLV我現在就可以告訴你他就是GLV應該就是你覺得呢這個Domain是真的那前面那個加的那個看起來有點可疑所以你第二個你覺得是假的"},{"start":6071.497,"end":6093.526,"text":"還是不能夠確定對我們做事情的方法我們那個就是科學家的方法就是在去確定好我跟大家公布答案只有第一個是真的另外兩個都是假的是好那另外兩個是假的這個是之前之前不是發現金就之前這個監理站用監理站專門在騙大家點進去繳費的"},{"start":6096.172,"end":6123.83,"text":"的釣魚網站那第二個為什麼是假的因為他那個gov.tv不是在前面所以他在斜線後面這是假的這是你們過去啦這是我拿過去的東西拿來問你們好啦部長你看喔連你對第二個你都要回去查證一下現場我們很多政府的同仁們也都不是太確定部長你覺得一個一般社會大眾是"},{"start":6126.357,"end":6146.413,"text":"他怎麼知道他難道還要跟你一樣回去書法部查一下然後哪一個第二個是不是真或者是假是委員說的完全沒錯所以我們現在的宣傳是說不是說.gov普發現金的時候不是說只認gov.tl我們是講說所有的關於登記還有訊息還有那個發放的作業什麼都只在1100"},{"start":6148.394,"end":6171.952,"text":".gov.tw就在這上面才會是真的然後另外這是我們的白名單策略另外一個黑名單策略就是我們在網站上我們就事先預防我們就把那個所有看起來很像譬如說把1000他寫的是1000的這些網站我們就事先做封阻所以我們就是努力把各種那個詐騙的管道就把它封阻住好是"},{"start":6173.123,"end":6194.881,"text":"我其實不是要請你上來解釋這個啦因為這個我們已經我講過嘛我對抒發部從我站在這個位置這個會期開始我就只有一個問題問你就打雜其他我沒有任何問過抒發部任何問題那為什麼這樣我一直在講這個事情一萬塊就要發了可是我們這個宣導啊我不認為大家懂"},{"start":6197.475,"end":6224.302,"text":"我的做法我告訴家裡長輩的做法是就是政府另外領一萬塊的那兩個方法是譬如說你就直接零貴嘛是不然就ATM嘛是對不對是那這個實在是太困難了是主委你看我就講嘛我們大家都是政府我們都在宣導讓民眾知道哪一個是假的網站是但是我忽然告訴你就像你今天你此刻我發簡訊給你是"},{"start":6226.274,"end":6241.584,"text":"我們的各位這個行政院的各位同仁發簡訊給大家各部會的同仁你能立刻知道我要點還不要點你也很懷疑啦所以更不要講一般民眾是所以部長認重道遠啦謝謝要搞這個普發現金為什麼這個"},{"start":6244.545,"end":6266.937,"text":"4個假網站曝光不知道還有40個還400個沒有曝光是 沒錯可能此刻我在質詢的當下就有人正在受騙是所以這個1萬塊要做這件事情就是說你要透過網站去做這個事情是速發部應該要有一個更審慎的規劃是你現在在宣導你宣導的狀況你看等於我們自己的"},{"start":6267.717,"end":6291.655,"text":"政府的同仁都不是太確定都不是太確定所以你們一定要想個辦法不然你要做這個你就不要做你要做這個你就要有你要有拿出速發部的做法好不好這就已經開始了我現在講已經有點慢了但是你看我隨便考一下這個你要宣導到大家都去知道這個難度實在很高"},{"start":6291.775,"end":6318.434,"text":"抱歉啦那個上場就像棒球員突然上場會緊張一下沒關係啦我沒有怪你你也沒有答錯啦你也不算答錯你只是說謹慎一下啦但是呢你看很明顯的這個謹慎只有你有辦法你是速發部長嘛一般民眾是沒有辦法有你謹沒有辦法這樣謹慎還有回去有速發部可以來問來去查沒有辦法OK那個祖密4G啊這個市場上都在大家都在煩惱因為4G的用戶現在還有1000多萬戶有啦"},{"start":6322.797,"end":6337.439,"text":"這一千多萬戶不斷在擔心因為現在可能這個電信公司不斷在促銷5G所以大家接到這種叫大家去轉5G的電話就會感到有壓力或緊張4G是不是會停了會停止服務"},{"start":6338.46,"end":6358.597,"text":"有没有这个事情没有没有这个事情4G跟5G因为这个在技术上面上是标的虽然是5G的频谱了可是4G的服务其实还在持续这个应该是4G跟5G他讲的是技术了对对对我应该问的是那个支费的方案没有没有我只是问你说4G的服务不可以停止"},{"start":6359.979,"end":6387.88,"text":"這個1000多萬怎麼可能因為你的電信公司在促銷或者在推廣的時候他的那個語氣會讓民眾覺得好像一副4G快不行了要大家都去改5G這個就是市場為什麼會有這個題目會跑出來消費者為什麼會擔心可能你要跟電信公司稍微再溝通一下不要造成這個誤解我覺得所以本席今天在這裡公開問你就是要從NCC的嘴巴告訴所有的消費者"},{"start":6388.5,"end":6409.927,"text":"沒有這件事情喜歡5G的人就去辦5G因為資費那麼高嘛我們一般市井小民學生這些年輕朋友如果你的經濟能力有壓力的你辦4G絕對沒有問題可以繼續用那對於特殊需求的這些資費方案目前都還在持續當中對對對所以你這個要讓大家清楚喜歡5G的人可以說喜歡4G他還是有保障住啦然後呢這個接下來這個纜線那個"},{"start":6415.785,"end":6440.47,"text":"部長 這個纜線現在目前有三條正在修復當中對不對就是這個EAC-1 TDM-2跟TSE-1對不對三條纜線在修復中委員您現在應該是本部網站網頁上的資料對對對對那這三條纜線在修復中目前沒有修如果還沒修復完成之前對誰的衝擊最大"},{"start":6443.688,"end":6466.617,"text":"報委員目前為止台馬二號部分完全不用擔心因為台馬三號可以完全的替代掉所以完全不用擔心那至於EAC-1跟TS-E1的話TS-E1剛剛已經跟委員報告過那只是中間一根心斷而已因為他大概十二星到六星也完全沒受影響那EAC-1的部分也有替代的路由所以大概目前為止影響不大 以上報告"},{"start":6466.957,"end":6474.408,"text":"好 那既然這樣我現在有一點搞混就是看起來好像都沒什麼影響那這三條到底要做什麼"},{"start":6475.703,"end":6494.134,"text":"那不修會怎麼樣就是說我們把它修好了什麼就會變怎麼樣不修看起來我聽你們回答好像三條不修好像也不會怎樣這個基本上都是備援就像我們那個打棒球有一些板墊球員然後有人受傷了就換一個上去所以其實簡單講不修我們的備援就有問題"},{"start":6497.756,"end":6515.62,"text":"是不是這樣但現行對我們消費者使用上面現行這此刻的狀態沒有任何太大的影響但備援很重要備援很重要那最後一個問題那什麼時候你們預計什麼時候可以修復除了第一條這個東亞交會這個是114年11月28嘛你們預計修復日期嘛對不對是那其他兩條你寫評估中是怎麼樣是"},{"start":6522.601,"end":6550.702,"text":"報告委員因為所有的海嵐在維修的時候都需要靠海嵐的國外的海嵐船團那這需要他們的評估因為國際上不是只有我們沒關係你只要大約告訴我譬如說一年內可不可以修復我只能跟委員報告說目前為止我看到的資料海嵐曾經在半年之內有維修的最長大概到半年之內會維修完成好這是最最最最長的最長對最長所以應該再怎麼樣也不可能拖到一兩年以上"},{"start":6550.782,"end":6577.318,"text":"當然有時候有時候海象的關係啊那就是禁訴啦備援對國安也很重要啦好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蔡其昌委員發言完畢先做一下宣告徐富奎委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘請各黨團助理告知其他還沒有發言的委員徐富奎委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘現在請陳樹業委員發言"},{"start":6589.409,"end":6592.244,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請速發部林部長"},{"start":6602.545,"end":6623.484,"text":"部長早我們知道在這個資訊化的時代這個海底電纜可以說是這個通訊的很重要的一個基礎設施基礎設備那我們也知道台灣因為是一個海島所以我們仰賴這個海底電纜更是非常的一個不可或缺台灣分別有14條的國際海纜登陸"},{"start":6625.405,"end":6648.21,"text":"那另有六條連結台澎金馬這個離島的國內海纜那我們也看到台灣約99%的網路頻寬都要靠這個海纜所以海纜的這個重要性可以說如同台灣的這個數位生命線那我們也知道就是說最近幾年也發現這個海底電纜就是常常有損壞或是被破壞的一個狀況就是會嚴重的影響到這個"},{"start":6650.47,"end":6677.873,"text":"就是說一般的話就是民生的問題這個民眾可能就是ATM沒有辦法去領款或者是包括沒辦法看影片這個日常的這種生活受影響可是更重要的是有關這個經濟貿易國際貿易或者是軍事的資訊的傳輸等等這個都會受到很大的一個影響所以我們今天委員會排審的這幾個法案事實上應該都是針對要怎樣去確保這個"},{"start":6678.593,"end":6699.297,"text":"海底電纜的這個安全來進行的這個修法那我想先請教部長就是說針對這個海底電纜的這個安全的部分那速發部就是說是否有針對登陸我國的這個國際海纜或者是國內海纜進行風險的評估或者是說有沒有去想過要怎樣規劃優先保護區的一個劃設"},{"start":6702.426,"end":6725.257,"text":"是對於這個海嵐的安全我們基本上是分為事前事中以及事後那這三方面來管理首先就是在那個海嵐發生斷裂的這種狀況之前就是沒有狀況的時候我們要做好監控然後我們要做好各種備援就是加強這個韌性譬如說我們會把現在新設的海嵐我們加上盔甲"},{"start":6725.777,"end":6752.287,"text":"然後把那個新設的海纜埋得也比較深以前埋得比較淺現在埋得比較深那另外就是適中就是如果發現海纜斷掉的話那我們必須立即啟動這個備援設施因為我們知道我們除了那個光纜本身就會有很多條彼此可以備援以外另外我們有那個微波國內譬如說台灣跟馬祖有微波那另外還有我們低軌衛星中軌衛星甚至於是同步衛星這個都是備援"},{"start":6753.127,"end":6778.587,"text":"然後我們在事中我們必須盡快的把這個備援把它放上去讓民眾的使用網路不受影響然後在事後我們就是最重要是要究責那今天我們之所以會提出這個法案的修訂就是想要究責這部分我們必須把那些壞人抓起來那有責任就有責任然後他如果是用他的船來進行這個破壞我們就要把他的船扣押起來這樣子"},{"start":6779.628,"end":6797.731,"text":"那些對於境外敵對勢力的那個灰色襲擾我們就有更強力的武器我們知道海嵐發生故障一般就是自然的裂化另外一個就是外力的一個破壞剛剛部長也有答詢就是說事前一個準備就是加強"},{"start":6798.812,"end":6804.015,"text":"的保護加上防護的一個設備我們也看到就是說根據監察院的報告揭露從2019年到2023年間我國的海嵐就一共發生了約36起外力損壞的一個事件"},{"start":6817.563,"end":6833.142,"text":"是平均每年約7起那2023年就高達12件可以說是近5年來的高峰那我們也看到就是觀光今年2025年上半年我國遭受到這個海嵐的損害的狀況"},{"start":6834.523,"end":6852.87,"text":"國內海欄就有三起那國際海欄就有兩起這樣子的一個損害的一個狀況那所以在就是不管是自然劣化或者是說被外力破壞之後剛剛部長有答詢到就是微波的一個支援或者是就是備援"},{"start":6853.67,"end":6875.21,"text":"或者是修復這個都非常的一個重要我想請教一下就是說我們看到在2023年2月就是馬祖的海域短短的6天之內就是有連續兩條的海嵐遭受破壞我們看到的資訊是說讓這個馬祖陷入了長達50天的網路黑暗期"},{"start":6877.048,"end":6892.634,"text":"之後我們也看到這個資料說這個台馬二號海欄遭到破壞是花費了四個月二十三天才完成修復那剛剛部長打到說這個微波備援那為什麼微波備援還會讓馬祖陷入長達五十天的網路黑暗"},{"start":6894.895,"end":6909.64,"text":"我們有微波備援所以事實上馬祖的網路並沒有全斷只是他的頻寬比較小一點這一點是不是請謝委員因為以前我們第一次在蘇巴部剛成立的時候我們就發現到這個問題所以當時的馬祖備援只有9.6G"},{"start":6911.74,"end":6939.213,"text":"所以是不足就對了對不足那我們已經擴充到12.6了所以現在他們高峰大概在11 12左右所以可以完全的備援那今年的話我們也在爭取預算希望明年再進一步的擴充容量以上報告是好所以這個部分就是說是可以解決的就對了就是說在海底電如果發生被外力破壞斷掉了那我們的備援未來是可以來補上的就對了"},{"start":6939.693,"end":6960.004,"text":"是而且我們現在也在建設那個台馬4號的光纜預計在明年6月其實現在距離現在大概只有8個月應該就會完成了所以有台馬4號那個海纜以後這個我們的備援就更多了這個我們通訊跟馬祖之間的通訊韌性就會更加的改善"},{"start":6961.245,"end":6971.176,"text":"另外我再請教一下就是說我們在台馬二號海欄被破壞之後我們是花費了四個月二十三天才完成修復為什麼會花這麼多的時間因為那個海欄斷掉這個事情並不是"},{"start":6979.406,"end":6994.784,"text":"並不是經常持續性會發生所以各個那個那個海嵐的營運公司都必須去找那個海嵐修復船然後這海嵐修復船的調度有時候就是比較困難那我們這件事情我們也在想辦法那個加強是不是請我們任信司司長說明"},{"start":6996.466,"end":7026.086,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢 那海岸維修確實是一個國際性的問題 目前我國大概加入兩個船團 一個是有購哈馬爾船團 一個是東南亞印太的船團那大概有60艘船來做維修 但是因為全球在做 這個區域在全球的調度所以事實上調度有點困難 那明年的話我們也爭取預算 希望能夠來加速維修 意味著說如果業者能夠在我們的平均水準以下 以上能夠加速維修的話 我們就給予適當的補助 適當的誘因來希望業者能夠加速來維修 以上報告"},{"start":7026.586,"end":7041.875,"text":"是因為我們知道海嵐被破壞維修就是因為我們剛剛有回覆說是加入兩個維修的船區那可是他的排序就是會以這個可能是以股東的那個投資的比例或者是說國際海嵐為優先"},{"start":7044.037,"end":7068.795,"text":"國內的海欄可能會被排在後面所以這個對我們國家的這樣子的一個就是數位的韌性也是一個很大的一個隱憂等於是不是我們在這個修復的這個我們如果沒有一個主控權的話我們是不是就受制於人所以是不是說對於面對這樣子的困境我們要怎樣去強化國內海欄的安全維護跟維修我們有沒有可能自己有一部這個海欄的維修船"},{"start":7069.631,"end":7099.491,"text":"是因為海纜維修船應該是很貴而且不是經常在使用所以我們現在認為說是還是加入船團那個所謂船團就是世界幾個國家的那個海纜公司他共用幾艘船那如同我們任性司司長剛剛所講的現在有六有六艘船那這個六艘船我們當然是希望儘快的調度那另外我們剛剛也講到就是我們會有一個獎勵措施就是如果他修復的速度更快的話我們就會給他更多的"},{"start":7100.031,"end":7123.516,"text":"因為我們就是說以這個台馬二號的修復的例子來看因為花了這麼多的長的時間四個多月然後因為修復的業者又遭受到中國海巡船的干擾所以也棄標了所以我覺得說面對這樣的困境我們應該要去思考怎樣來強化我們自己維修的一個量能才不會說受制於人"},{"start":7124.036,"end":7144.331,"text":"因為我們覺得就是說對於整個海南安全防護網的一個強化跟建構非常重要因為這是關係到我們整個國家的一個安全是 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝好 謝謝陳樹業委員發言完畢現在請徐富奎委員發言徐委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘"},{"start":7155.722,"end":7161.935,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們交通部陳部長還有蘇發部林部長 請林部長 航港局葉局長 請葉局長"},{"start":7173.03,"end":7192.671,"text":"兩位部長 局長早安我想我們臺灣目前有十條國內的海欄跟十四條的國際海欄擔負起這個對外通訊很重要的一個任務但是因為最近這三年平均每年就發生七到八次的一個斷纜事件我想這是很嚴重的一個事情"},{"start":7193.171,"end":7210.057,"text":"尤其今年初又連續在兩個月之內發生了四起那當然剛剛數位部林部長有提到我們有做一些很好的一個備援的處理機制不過我想這個再怎麼樣的好的一個備援機制我們還是要先預防這樣一個被破壞的情形產生是"},{"start":7211.317,"end":7237.025,"text":"那所以我想我們目前有收集到 目前我們有三個外界的一個建議作法 今天特別跟兩位部長來討論一下第一個部長 有沒有可能我們在這個海嵐經過的路線上面我們劃定一個帶重的走廊而且加強空中跟海上的一個巡邏 限制海域活動 確保海嵐安全那這部分因為有牽扯到漁業或經濟活動 有沒有辦法做這樣的一個規範 是"},{"start":7242.02,"end":7262.778,"text":"委員這個因為會涉及到一般船舶的這個航行狀況所以我們必須要審慎一點來評估這件事但是委員的這個建議很好我們現在來評估看看有沒有這樣的可能性但是我剛剛有說過就是怕會影響到一般船舶的這個航行我們還是要確保一般船舶航行的這個順暢所以這個還是要可以來討論看看來研議看看"},{"start":7264.219,"end":7293.408,"text":"那第一個我想過去那個航港局的葉局長我有跟他提到說我們很多的權益輪這自由在這個海上很可疑那針對這部分我們有沒有做進一步的掌握這個管制的一個清單我們現在有一個黑名單的這個清單那目前我們也有做管制那包含入港的部分我們也會做管制那如果是黑名單的部分離我們太近我們也會請海巡來協助我們當然會先請他離開那他如果沒有離開我們會請海巡來協助"},{"start":7294.343,"end":7309.286,"text":"好 那第三個我們可不可能建立一個智慧的一個自動化的一個示警機制當這個船隻 可以船隻接近這個敏感水域的時候就會 我們就會掌握到這樣一個預警的一個機制讓我們相關的部會能夠有所防範"},{"start":7309.847,"end":7336.655,"text":"有沒有辦法做這個目前中華電信有這個建制這個自動的市井的這個設備是那我們會把我們這個船的這個航機啊也就是透過AIS的方式我們藉機到海巡那也讓中華電信這邊能夠知道那大家有串聯在一起也就是說可疑船隻移動到那附近的時候滯留的時候移到那邊然後滯留的時候我們就會有一個啟動的機制"},{"start":7338.547,"end":7353.612,"text":"部長我想我們當然最重要先要讓海瀾七法通過 我們有一個相關的法源但是我想跨部會的一個合作更重要不要各自為政 應該要趕快去做一套的一個預防的機制然後防寒與未然 加強我們那個海瀾韌性謝謝 林部長請回答 謝謝"},{"start":7358.618,"end":7375.224,"text":"我想你有去過小琉球好幾次啦那當然現在目前小琉球是我們臺灣目前很夯的一個觀光景點一年大概湧入了將近超過120萬的一個遊客量那因為過去我們也很感謝我們交通部的支持我們在沿流線我們有一個海洋園區"},{"start":7376.384,"end":7394.259,"text":"水噹噹 大家都很忙但是相對性現在東港到琉球這個東流線的碼頭這個環境真的比較擁擠而且加熱的時候遊客要趴在頭那我知道我們香港局應該有提出一個更新的一個計畫那部長願不願意來支持這個計畫"},{"start":7395.24,"end":7422.65,"text":"報告委員 目前很感謝我們的這個屏東縣政府已經有在跟我們演繹這樣子的計畫 也跟航空港局開過好幾次會 那葉局長也親自到了屏東跟這個屏東縣政府在開會那我們交通部的立場是當然支持 可以協助這個部分我們會盡量努力那目前等計畫寫好 我印象中現在應該是在部裡面審查在部裡面審查那我們會加速這個審查的速度那希望趕快核定 之後趕快來做建制"},{"start":7423.09,"end":7448.455,"text":"部長 這個要特別拜託啦 我想我們周縣長一直很關心這個案子那尤其我想我們在發展觀光的這個這個路徑上面 琉球的這條航線真的是很重要那為了遊客啦 還有我們琉球鄉親這個使用上的一個很方便的一個一個管道啦 是 但是現在也有幾個問題要請部長幫忙第一個 部長有沒有知道我們這個這個棟溜線也有海盜船這件事情"},{"start":7449.135,"end":7473.376,"text":"這個我知道 縣長之前有說過那個港的這個地理環境的問題還有就是它應該是出海口東海通港溪的這個出海口然後還有淤積的問題海底的這個問題也是個問題所以那個地方的浪會特別大所以船在進出港的時候會有像委員這個照片上所寫的海盜船的狀況"},{"start":7474.497,"end":7487.557,"text":"那清瘀是優先必須要趕快做的那航港局也有補助給這個縣政府來做這個清瘀的動作大概明年的二月就可以完成這個清瘀那我相信這個海盜船的現象可以做一部分的改善"},{"start":7488.383,"end":7517.774,"text":"部長我們不是只有希望一次性的清淤啦這個會變成一個長年性的 它這個長線的部分應該有提出計畫而且它那個 這個部分我們會盡量來協助你如果沒有清淤 它那個水位Propela 螺旋槳會打到啦是是是 會造成船體的損害目前我們已經補助一千兩百六十萬那後續還有一個七千一百二十八萬的這個計畫我們會整個合併起來跟後壁湖的交通碼頭改善的這個案子大家並在一起做"},{"start":7518.334,"end":7541.561,"text":"部長那一樣後壁湖的部分也要拜託我們一樣我們因為未來後壁湖的遊客量也很大而且他是橫春到蘭嶼很重要的一個航線這部分也要拜託部長一起來支持沒問題另外我想那個漂流木的問題也是要去面對解決當然我知道這個交通部跟漁業署應該也要找個時間來討論這樣的一個處理機制不然每次遇到風太大"},{"start":7543.089,"end":7554.581,"text":"我們的航道也受影響或是卡在這個小破塊上面也要看一看我想這部分應該趕快來做處理這個部分可能也要拜託那個農業部漁業署這邊大家一起來幫忙"},{"start":7555.504,"end":7574.038,"text":"部長有這個農業部跟這個他們我都有溝通過 還有水利署我都有溝通過但是就是他們會覺得說這個主政單位還是在交通部可是那很像是漁港因為剛好你們就是你們也有啦 水利署也有漁業署也有啦 交通部的部分能幫忙的部分我們一定會做"},{"start":7574.798,"end":7594.796,"text":"好 那另外我想東港今年有發生一個波特船的一個意外那這部分部長我想我們還是要趕快訂定一個相關的規範因為過去波特船的部分說今天他不用這隻就可以去處理很多很多我們的鄉親遊客會利用這樣的一個管道去處理其實真的很危險 是是"},{"start":7595.376,"end":7624.916,"text":"那我也跟漁業署也溝通過這個事情那因為這個會牽扯到有漁業署也有航港局還有觀光署還有地方政府的權責問題也應該要趕快來釐清我們都不希望意外發生部長願意支持這樣一個修法的方向嗎我們會朝向開始納管的這個方向那目前林明新政委跟這個馬永成政委目前正在協調這件事情那航港局的立場是希望未來以傳播的這個形式用傳播法的形式來做一個列管的動作"},{"start":7625.836,"end":7649.069,"text":"好 部長我們樂見其成要趕快去進行那最後我想部長這個很喜歡到屏東嘛對 我想屏東我們也是積極在發展因為我們是三面環海我們有臺灣海峽有巴士海峽有太平洋那當然遊艇的一個一個遊騎的一個行為我們很樂觀其成但是因為現在卡到相關的法令還有船舶位的不足的問題是"},{"start":7649.889,"end":7660.95,"text":"那部長這個後續我們在我們幾個這個相關的一個建制的一個遊港的一個條例還有草案還有相關的設施的部分能不能做怎麼樣一個規劃"},{"start":7662.349,"end":7680.474,"text":"好 報告委員這個部分我們會積極來辦理我們也希望可以發展這個遊艇的觀光那過去的四年其實航港局結合觀光署已經補助了14場的這個遊艇類的活動那至於法制面的部分如何讓它完善這個部分交通部會來努力"},{"start":7681.243,"end":7703.635,"text":"部長我要提出一個數字2014年遊艇的數量是200艘10年後2024年已經到1500多艘可能大家對這個海洋很嚮往那也是這個我覺得這也是另外一個很好的一個油氣環境但是我們相對性我們沒有建置一個這麼好的一個油氣的一個場域跟法規我想這未來都會受到限制大家一起來努力一起來努力 謝謝好 謝謝徐物凱委員發言完畢現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7714.66,"end":7717.206,"text":"所以現在那個斷制控制就沒有在用"},{"start":7732.415,"end":7751.408,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7754.002,"end":7784.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7784.002,"end":7804.735,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7804.735,"end":7827.022,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7828.563,"end":7835.365,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7854.224,"end":7865.555,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7877.436,"end":7888.262,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":7890.162,"end":7912.21,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7913.2,"end":7930.295,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7935.179,"end":7965.026,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7965.026,"end":7994.053,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7997.395,"end":8009.485,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8015.469,"end":8027.977,"text":"我在看那個自然而然的電腦"},{"start":8274.975,"end":8275.035,"text":"好好"},{"start":8312.087,"end":8329.765,"text":"繼續開會 現在請林郡縣委員發言感謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長 請陳部長韓正司長 韓正司有來 請司長 韓司長"},{"start":8341.445,"end":8367.611,"text":"好委員好部長好部長我今天要提一下傳播法修法的事情是你現在看了這個照片上面有寫日期有應該是2024年的6月26號去年當時本席就是質詢這個傳播法是傳播法我要求"},{"start":8369.52,"end":8389.495,"text":"如果為了我們要發展所謂的海洋海洋相關事業那過去的傳播法實在有一點實在太保守了這根本完全沒有辦法符合我們現代國家發展的需要我記得那個時候行政司給我的答覆葉協榮你在這裡"},{"start":8394.831,"end":8421.289,"text":"你現在是港港局長你當時給我的答案是三個月內要把傳播法的修法草案送到給交通部你忘記了喔送了一年半2024年的6月26號你當時就這麼答應你看我這個照片後面我寫的執行的東西我今天一樣同樣問你當時你們也認為"},{"start":8425.287,"end":8443.917,"text":"因為我們非自用的遊艇就是未來要發展所謂的海洋觀光現有的船舶法它的規定就是要A點上船 A點下船對不對我當時有請教我們航空局的意見你說"},{"start":8447.181,"end":8468.611,"text":"這個如果以現況來講以實際的需要當然是A點上你來點下應該都可以對不對我如果從台北上船那我要坐到台中 坐到台南當然可以還有這個遊艇購物也是我們出去觀光旅遊就除了旅行以外這觀光相關產業"},{"start":8470.932,"end":8497.224,"text":"這個商業行為那麼多元你又把它綁了實質的你到別的地方下船你不能買東西帶上船那這個怎麼使用所以啊 我記得當時啊局長你有說要修法一年半的時間啊 過去啦你當時給我答應是三個月草案送交通部 現在送擋板那現在到底是什麼情況"},{"start":8499.034,"end":8527.564,"text":"跟委員報告因為這次的修法的版本因為涉及還有包括離岸風電還有這個非常多的課題那修正的條文大概高達40幾條那我先前跟委員報告我們要送布的部分事實上我們是有送那因為修正的條文比較多那經過布的審查那有還回來局裡再檢討我們這個月會再重新報布我們會再加速"},{"start":8528.644,"end":8535.321,"text":"那一年半了好 包委員這部分我們會再加速那因為這一次把好 那我問你 那你修法方向"},{"start":8535.988,"end":8563.207,"text":"學校方向就是照先前跟我們報告的就是把這個遊艇現在因為因為現在傳播法有要求遊艇只能供娛樂使用不能做這個客貨的這個運送那以至於會有解釋說你要A點上一定要回到A點下的這個限制那現在我們要草案已經把它修正了那要解除鬆綁這個限制那"},{"start":8563.807,"end":8583.468,"text":"而且非自用遊艇我們改成營業用的遊艇讓它更上軌道讓它更有多元的營業的一個彈性你有包括購物嗎這個部分也有把它包括進來它不會以為是貨物的運送以至於有觸法的問題"},{"start":8584.434,"end":8599.785,"text":"你看這樣一綁 綁一個草案就一綁一個修法就一年半你還說要發展什麼海洋觀光什麼台灣四面方海我們要向海致敬台灣人就這樣 台灣就是近海不親海"},{"start":8600.866,"end":8625.017,"text":"四邊都是海我們根本跟海洋一點親近關係都沒有當然有一些歷史上的嚴格過去獨裁時代不給你下海全部封鎖起來現在已經台灣民主化這麼多年我們喊海洋觀光也喊了那麼多年一個最基本你沒有法就把自己綁得死死的"},{"start":8626.645,"end":8652.185,"text":"你這邊不處理的話講什麼海洋觀光根本亂講不可能不可能去做嘛是不是希望請加農部這裡也加油一下好不好這個部分沒問題因為已經部這邊有看過了啦那目前有些修正我們趕快把它修過那部這邊加速審議然後趕快修訂好 謝謝陳部長接下來我要請事務發部林部長那陳部長請先休息"},{"start":8659.775,"end":8685.283,"text":"委員好部長好 林部長現在我們今天在關心那個海嵐的問題而且海嵐你知道現在是國家的重大的基礎設施那我看過去幾乎每一年我們都有海嵐會被受到破壞那有的是不小心我看絕大多數都是刻意的重大嫌疑都是刻意來破壞我們的海嵐那這種未來的破壞"},{"start":8686.383,"end":8709.34,"text":"我覺得你也很難避免那我們就是要如何去面對你要面對它 你要防範它以及破壞以後那我們怎麼辦那這個部分蘇花部這裡有沒有因為以前的事權很分散不知道這個海欄到底屬於誰那現在大概就直接把這個工作來請蘇花部要來負責 對不對"},{"start":8711.752,"end":8737.652,"text":"好 那柏中你現在有什麼想法OK 關於海嵐的那個防護我們分成事前事中事後的處理我們三方面都會加強就是在事前就平常我們要加強備援的建置然後加強韌性就是我們現在新設的海嵐我們會加上那個盔甲就是然後會埋得比較深以前埋得比較淺現在會埋得比較深然後我們會加強監控然後在事中就是一旦發生了這個事情"},{"start":8738.092,"end":8756.974,"text":"我們要儘速的啟動備援我們備援基本上分成幾種一個是海欄本身就會有備援再來就是我們有微波然後再來有那個衛星然後在事後我們最重要是要救責所以我們這次就是我們提出這個法案的修正就是希望能救責就是到如果有人來破壞"},{"start":8758.075,"end":8782.341,"text":"那我們就趕快把他抓起來把他傳播扣下來讓他以後不敢再做這個事情基本上這個海蘭的破壞已經變成國際事件了因為尤其在歐洲也很嚴重甚至直接關聯到是否是俄烏戰爭的影響所以在今年的世界經濟論壇WF2025年全球網際安全展望裡面特別提到海蘭"},{"start":8783.401,"end":8804.482,"text":"針對海欄以及通訊衛星這兩個部分一個在海底一個在空中有提出了所謂的連空中衛星也會受到攻擊海欄也會受到攻擊變成一種國際上大家一起來合作增強安全和韌性那台灣要準備好了我剛剛給你很長時間給你政令宣導謝謝"},{"start":8808.145,"end":8824.298,"text":"跟委員那個建議其實弱核伏擊我們的想法都是第一個我覺得這個海南我大概提三點我們是否應該來像有些國外它是畫色海南保護區重要的地方我乾脆就禁止你"},{"start":8825.538,"end":8840.067,"text":"不准有漁船 商船就是有一個保護區第二個我們要提升自主維修能力沒事我們海南斷了就趕快開國際標趕快請國外的船那也發生因為中國的阻撓本來我們開國際標是韓國的得標結果韓國的修復船"},{"start":8845.511,"end":8860.41,"text":"棄標 放棄了因為中國的干擾是 來騷擾那我們自己又沒有自主維修能力那怎麼辦所以我們是不是要有建立自主的維修能力第三就是我們要跟自由民主國家大家來合作融入區域的聯防體系是"},{"start":8861.854,"end":8870.998,"text":"特別請部長 這個部分我們應該多加努力非常謝謝委員的指導 我們會朝這個方向努力 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝林俊憲委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言葉主席 我們先請韓港局長請葉協榮局長"},{"start":8894.29,"end":8906.135,"text":"委員好菲律賓巴丹島的漁船漂流到蘭嶼 是 那這個可以讓他們開回去嗎"},{"start":8907.443,"end":8931.582,"text":"對 各位報告這艘漁船我們了解他的動力並不是很大那在這樣因為蘭嶼距離這個菲律賓大概有100海浬左右那照我們的這個專業的判斷比較建議他是用拖船的部分把他拖帶回去是相對安全那這個具體的做法就是說"},{"start":8933.343,"end":8960.334,"text":"可以由這個第三工政單位那找到適合的拖船那這個認證這個拖帶的這個計畫是安全的那就可以啟動這個拖帶的這個所以這個有沒有航權的問題不知道沒有沒有航權的問題沒有沒有所以沒有航權問題如果那拖船是安全的問題是那如果說這一艘船的動力還在"},{"start":8961.823,"end":8976.093,"text":"那船長也自己檢查動力沒有問題那他自己想開回去因為你拖船的費用跟自己開回去的費用會差很多嘛那如果他動力檢查沒問題"},{"start":8978.112,"end":8984.415,"text":"他自己想開回去這樣可以嗎是 包委員這個部分就是經過這個專業的這個傳播的驗證機構來確認這個四行性沒有問題這部分也我們"},{"start":8994.338,"end":9002.587,"text":"也沒有排斥那這個部分我們可以協助這個外籍漁船來這個推進國內的這個專業的檢驗機構他來是不對他被颱風從巴丹島吹過來我們南宇"},{"start":9010.436,"end":9023.478,"text":"也不是他故意的要開的了解只是說真的他們自己也找很久了才找到說原來吹到我們蘭嶼公告是所以這誤導誤撞把這艘船吹到台灣來"},{"start":9024.935,"end":9045.45,"text":"那當然就是說以船主因為前天我有碰到那個船東那個船東他們自己是想說他們希望最希望的就是自己可以開回去不用那麼花那麼多錢來把他拖回去那可能四航性的部分我們再協助他們對我是這樣建議就是說"},{"start":9047.037,"end":9063.448,"text":"船他最清楚他自己引擎或者是他平常就在開這一艘船他如果自己去檢查好然後寫下切結書就說他檢查安全沒有問題或者甚至說出海以後安全他自己會考量"},{"start":9064.401,"end":9077.89,"text":"他自己會負責那我們就相信他是傳統對於自己的判斷他也有寫下切結書不要說是在海上出了問題又怪說我們台灣沒有負道義責任"},{"start":9079.52,"end":9099.488,"text":"如果這樣子的情況之下是不是有可能讓他回去細部的作業方式是不是容許我們再跟傳東這邊再討論那基本上以不盡量不增加他的負擔的原則安全的原則下讓他順利能夠返回菲律賓好這個謝謝局長謝謝委員我們請部長請部長"},{"start":9111.721,"end":9131.033,"text":"委員好部長再來這個可能就跟交通部跟觀光有關那我是覺得還有跟文化有關這個可能就請部長來做一個思考就是說包單島的那個省長正好前天來台灣"},{"start":9133.159,"end":9154.596,"text":"那我也跟他碰了面那他們巴丹島很有趣巴丹島的那個語言跟我們蘭語的語言大概有60%是一樣的所以他們也認為說其實我們是蘭島語系的龍虎老大嘛所以他們就是以前應該是跟我們同我們蘭語是一樣的"},{"start":9156.785,"end":9183.312,"text":"應該是那樣子的概念所以他們希望有機會可以啟動蘭嶼跟巴丹島的航海計畫而且是用傳統的蘭嶼的拼板舟傳統蘭嶼的拼板舟大概都是10個人划因為這個航程有145公里他們可能會做一個更大的船大概20個人的然後3組人去輪流划"},{"start":9184.435,"end":9205.694,"text":"那就是要做蘭嶼跟巴丹島的三百年之後的首航所以其實這個對於台灣跟菲律賓的這個關係其實我是覺得不管是文化 歷史 原住民族那兩國之間的互動"},{"start":9207.213,"end":9219.552,"text":"我覺得這個都是相當有意義甚至他們省長那天也說希望將來的觀光交流可以更多所以這個部分現在當然"},{"start":9221.486,"end":9246.994,"text":"現在就是初始的省長意願很高那我們這一邊就說前天我是跟吳立華委員還有原住民族基金會的董事長跟接待他們這個巴丹島的省長還有他們一團有很多的團員副省長市長議會委員會的委員那包括這個傳統"},{"start":9249.356,"end":9278.163,"text":"所以我們其實前天的兩個問題一個問題就是解決船東可以順利把船開回去或運回去他們自己的這是他的東西希望能夠有機會來協助他們回去那第二個就是說我們這一個兩國的交流我們原來就是都是屬於男女巴單他們應該是同一個種族同一個民族的一個交流那這個部分"},{"start":9279.434,"end":9285.956,"text":"那個部長是不是請觀光署一起更來大力的協助"},{"start":9287.45,"end":9314.3,"text":"跟委員報告我看您上面所寫的就是說他們希望用那個拼板舟能夠做守航那這個部分當然如果是原民會有認定認定說他們這個船確實是可以這樣航行的話那就由原民會去認定我們就來配合那試航的部分可能還是需要找一個機構去確定是試航上是可以的就是安全講快一點就是安全那我們就會盡量來配合"},{"start":9315.779,"end":9344.065,"text":"因為我想說蘭嶼跟高雄跟巴丹正好變成一個三個可以串在一起的文化景點那未來那個援助民主博物館也會在我們高雄這邊蓋現在應該明年驗警館就會蓋好那後續會陸陸續續來完成這個援助民主驗警館這個援助民主驗警館就是在整個蘭島嶼西的龍頭老道的定位要去蓋的所以將來可能不管是"},{"start":9345.126,"end":9364.361,"text":"當然就是有關於外交的部分不是部長的統籌但是就是那個觀光的部分也跟那個不知道有沒有到時候有什麼航權航海 航港局可以協助的就請部長也知道這件事情盡力來幫忙好 我們交通部盡力來協助時間到了"},{"start":9367.363,"end":9378.657,"text":"好最後一句話那個請部長交代一下那個高雄的觀光那個郵輪希望能夠再加強好那下次比較多時間再問好我們持續努力謝謝委員好謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢現在請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":9396.862,"end":9402.405,"text":"主席各位同仁大家早安請蘇發部林部長請林部長部長早10月7號10月28號我們台馬2號海欄斷了是10月7號的時候是"},{"start":9422.165,"end":9447.94,"text":"在公海上我們12星的2號海嵐有兩星斷裂不然有個問題老共那邊跟我聯絡他這個2號海嵐是一條漁船勾到另外一條漁船的錨不小心弄斷了大概現在已經和解了"},{"start":9449.537,"end":9472.37,"text":"那我們在公海上這種海欄今天修法也修到這個只是加重那以後在公海上他們也把我們的船弄走你看怎麼樣怎麼辦在公海上把我們的船弄走他的也是海軍單位海警也把我們的船弄走這個問題就來了引發相當大的糾紛"},{"start":9475.743,"end":9501.898,"text":"現在我們的飛機是我們的輪船因為有國籍的問題是我們行駛在公海上等於是國籍的一個延伸是不是是沒錯那海嵐呢海嵐的問題它在海上是那是過失或是蓄意的破壞當然蓄意破壞都很嚴重是這個海嵐當然財產是屬於我們國家的"},{"start":9503.254,"end":9513.181,"text":"應該是屬於民間運營的公司現在海嵐大部分都是中華電信等民間的公司你們修法的時候注意到這個刑度刑法你把它加重或是幹什麼"},{"start":9515.258,"end":9542.264,"text":"這個會不會有國際上的一個衍生的一些法律上的問題是這個你要注意喔是 了解因為這一次這個臺馬二號海欄是這吳姓船長是他來我們地檢署也沒有收押他是沒有是只是海軍帶上來以後他還是可以自由活動了是那他的說法當然不是蓄意的是我想很像檢方我看到檢方的起訴書"},{"start":9543.71,"end":9569.538,"text":"也是這麼寫但是你把他起訴了起訴他在公海上那老公不認帳呢我也問過他們也向海基會也向陸委會在當地的機構提出來請他們協助他無法協助所以現在問題海基會跟大陸委員會的功能現在不當"},{"start":9570.669,"end":9595.697,"text":"是卻要靠我們民意代表去跟對面去協調當然對面也是很緊張啦因為是他們的人民嘛是 謝謝委員現在另外我請問就是說是海嵐2號這個有寫吧距離在淡水淡水100多海里的部分是10月8號一次10月27號一次是那這個海嵐斷了現在修復的情形怎麼樣"},{"start":9596.584,"end":9622.515,"text":"OK 首先要報告一下我們請慶幸師師長報告謝謝委員吹詢 那基本上現在中華電力在評估中但是我們已經請中華電力儘速評估一個日期出來那以往例子大概在180天之內大概可以修復完成 多少天最晚的狀況是180天 大概是半年但是180天 現在1號海嵐用了2號海嵐用了快30年了 是"},{"start":9623.483,"end":9638.891,"text":"也準備要淘汰了是 沒錯所以我們也補助中華電力在建台馬4號那預估明年大概6月可以完工現在是台馬3號在運作是 沒錯現在我給馬祖打電話這個通訊還是不是很好"},{"start":9640.242,"end":9661.884,"text":"斷斷續續的有時候你們去檢查一下看看好不好好的但是目前臺馬3號完全可以替代臺馬4號是沒問題的我跟縣長打電話打到一半沒聲音了再等一下聲音又出來了斷斷續續的這什麼原因我就不知道因為我不是技術人員也不是專業的你去查查看好不好那目前就靠臺馬3號在運作吧"},{"start":9664.578,"end":9674.284,"text":"臺馬三號當然二號也接到臺馬三號目前是沒有什麼大問題臺馬四號海嵐我再問一次明年是不是如期完工"},{"start":9675.27,"end":9701.328,"text":"到目前為止一切都是按照計畫在進行按照合約是這樣對 按照合約是這樣那合約會有狀況啊是 但是我們已經要求生化電力能夠儘速的催促業者能夠儘速的完工那我知道你不僅是要求他你要去了解狀況是 我們會去了解狀況要求是要求我也在這邊要求啊 是不是但你要去了解實際的進度是這個才是很重要的是 沒錯 這是我們的職責因為我怕"},{"start":9702.842,"end":9728.793,"text":"是你職責也是我職責大家都可以講嘛是不是但你要去了解實際的進度看看市長打個電話跟我講一下好不好是我們報告委員確實我們每次都在盯這個案子那我也要求中華電信警署跟業者看有什麼需要我們來協助我們都會盡量的協助當然我現在是怕海嵐山如果再斷的話那就炸鍋了當然還有微波微波已經到100多了嘛是不是"},{"start":9729.757,"end":9755.449,"text":"100多的問題還是會有問題啊是當然我還是很緊張啊因為以前有兩個海欄嘛是不是2號3號在維持那還不錯但是這有問題好不好好還有就是這個新臺馬倫明年1月份要稅休是請問一下那個Wi-FiWi-Fi的工程計畫有沒有那個錢有沒有準備到位了"},{"start":9756.031,"end":9779.349,"text":"是 這請任卿思市長謝謝委員存尋關心馬祖的地方建設目前為止大概中華電影會做 那我們一定會針對這個案子去做補助動作所以這個部分預算已經扣留下來了謝謝委員好 那謝謝 謝謝部長注意一下好不好 是 剩下一分鐘時間是不是請一下我們交通部長還有航空局局長請部長 局長委員好"},{"start":9786.667,"end":9805.058,"text":"部長我剛在電視上看葉局長頭髮斑白很像看起來比我還老我很心疼一個官員操勞到這個地步我們公務人員有時候確實很辛苦多給他鼓勵好不好好"},{"start":9806.167,"end":9821.636,"text":"現在是不是請說明一下我們四鄉五島港附建設尤其是東莒的部分東莒因為那個地方冬天馬上來了那個地方東北地方飛來強東莒的進度怎麼樣了現在我請葉局長回答好好謝謝"},{"start":9822.717,"end":9845.734,"text":"好 各位報告東莒的 我們近期有這個很具體的成果第一個就是東莒的蒙澳後船市在今年的5月已經啟用了全新的後船市我知道 我想浮動碼頭對 浮動碼頭部分各位報告因為外擴防波堤已經做好了所以我們在7月3號浮動碼頭已經開工了那東莒的蒙澳預計在116年會完工"},{"start":9847.922,"end":9868.003,"text":"開工是沒錯 你還是要注意他的進度好不好是是 我們會明確注意因為你隨便一個風浪隨便一個風浪 這個來沒辦法施工你知道嗎我知道 那離島的施工環境的確是比較困難那我們會明確注意進度 跟惠隆縣政府不過謝謝葉局長 我對你是非常的滿意不只是一點點滿意"},{"start":9869.488,"end":9896.113,"text":"那對你的滿意也延續到對部長的滿意這個有關係的 部長你好好照顧我們局長不要讓他太操啦那四鄉五島的這個港副建設的工程進度還是請局長這邊多費點心好不好還有一個就是這個一分鐘很快喔 趙偉小三通的船啦他的航運補貼還是有航運補貼的部分嘛"},{"start":9898.035,"end":9922.706,"text":"還是請葉縣長回答我這個部分本來就有法規的這個規定是允許的那我們每年在預算也都有編列那他那個船南北幹的部分你不會把它扣在並記吧沒有我們沒有這個收入版因為橋歸橋路歸路對我們沒有這個他對大陸的是大陸的補貼嘛對不對是是是我們是個別審查"},{"start":9924.887,"end":9937.177,"text":"好 這個也在辦了喔 有有有還有我們脫不頂的部分那個也在開始著手了嗎是是是有了喔 有有有好 因為時間到了謝謝部長 謝謝局長好 謝謝陳雪生委員也請航港局長不要太累謝謝"},{"start":9953.811,"end":9957.653,"text":"謝謝陳雪生委員現在請廖先祥委員發言謝謝主席不好意思我還是要請韓港局長請葉協榮局長我們速戰速決"},{"start":9978.074,"end":9997.053,"text":"學長好 這個野柳擱淺的這個案子先謝謝我們同仁這件案子算圓滿的結束了也沒有對當地的海洋造成污染雖然說時程大家可能會認為久了一點但其實這樣也沒有造成什麼實際的損害那這件事情包括後續的球場目前我們香港局的球場也都順利嗎"},{"start":9998.289,"end":10019.458,"text":"報告委員因為整個的這個處置包括抽油跟船體的移儲都是由船東的保險公司PMI來做處置所以這個部分這個工部門基本上都沒有出到費用沒有出到費用但是緊急應變的部分緊急應變的部分我們有先動員了"},{"start":10022.319,"end":10049.012,"text":"這個豐電的這個DP船那到現場先來做這個重機具的吊掛那這部分我們還在跟這個船東正在協商當中OK那這個保險公司也有一起 目前並沒有排斥這個給付這個費用那但是對這個給付的項目跟細節還在跟我們溝通 所以大宗的原則上保險公司都是直接他們直接支付也沒有請我們代出代付了沒有沒有 直接處理了"},{"start":10049.552,"end":10071.008,"text":"對因為這個事實上整個移除的經費非常所以這個保險公司之前聽局長說也是算蠻守規矩的保險公司有盡到他們的責任跟義務那局長之前好像有聽您有提過未來所有我們關聯的船隻我們原本都要求他必須要有保險對不對那未來都會請不是"},{"start":10071.889,"end":10093.312,"text":"未來就是不是只有針對有保險這件事情而是也是要針對他們的保險公司或許他保險公司可能有一個評級的一個評鑑等等的我們也都會來做保險公司的要求來符合後續如果說真的有意外發生的時候也都能夠像這一次這樣子的圓滿那保險公司負其他的責任而不是有些可能保險公司他可能是一個咳嗽前瞻的出事的時候不處理這樣子"},{"start":10094.053,"end":10106.103,"text":"是 是 謝謝委員這個垂詢 那我們在今年的10月15號已經開始實施這個保險的新制那過去我們從111年的9月開始委託專業的保險顧問來進行實質的審查但是我們認為這樣發現這幾年來的經驗發現還不夠那對於這個城堡的保險公司還是要進一步確認他是 屢約的能力"},{"start":10120.074,"end":10136.081,"text":"有離約能力的那我們10月15號開始14號這個新制就是要求是經過國際性評機構評等為Triple B以上的保險公司才可以來受我們進港傳播的這個城堡的保險公司即刻生效嗎還是會有緩衝期"},{"start":10137.301,"end":10153.887,"text":"已經即刻 報告委員因為我們宣導了非常久我們從年初就開始宣導溝通所以本來是7月份要實施那因為有部分的行商他們需要緩通的時間所以延長了三個月那我們現在10月15號開始實施"},{"start":10155.407,"end":10172.543,"text":"所以確定我們所有的船舶都是剛剛你講的有EEB以上的一個單機的現在就是以今年的統計10月份以前的進港船舶已經有97%都是投保EEB以上的保險公司只有3%大概121艘"},{"start":10174.464,"end":10199.728,"text":"是還沒有轉到這個TRIPLE B的 那這個部分他們因為現在都沒有進港所以目前也沒有抵觸我們這個公告新的規定的情形 那我們會盡量輔導他們去投保這個合規的保險公司 避免以後萬一有海事案件發生不能賠償的情形 好 謝謝喔好 那就您就先休息那就部長 這個陳部長 抱歉抱歉 部長"},{"start":10205.686,"end":10231.22,"text":"部長好那這個剩下的一些時間我想跟你討論一下這個行人通勤安全的問題然後今天只有你來所以你要獨挑大樑我們做一些討論而已就是我們應該是內政部的規定對於所有的人行道都有禁寬的限制大概就是1米5那如果說真的不行的那就是90那我們不要性行人行道也是一樣的一個參照內政部的規範嗎"},{"start":10232.1,"end":10253.672,"text":"還是說我們標新人行道他是有另外的規定這個部分的規範都在內政部標新人行道的規範也在內政部因為我們實際上我想這個部長你也當過議員嘛對不對我也當過議員那有些地方的道路的情況非常的多元有時候想想你也不知道為什麼當初會是這個"},{"start":10254.773,"end":10263.445,"text":"這個樣子但是我們後續要來提升行人安全的時候他常常有時候他的背景條件他可能沒有辦法做到醫務他可能沒有辦法做到90但是"},{"start":10265.68,"end":10293.583,"text":"我們在做討論的時候這個一些基層的同仁他們可能就會反映說因為我們如果說我們要來做人的行動他就做不了嘛因為他怕說沒有符合規範的話那就就可能會被未來會被民眾投訴或是產生國賠之類的一些問題但是反而就變成問題就擱置在這一邊或許我們會認為說以這個從化區來講的話我們當然說希望他所有的一個標準都是要必須符合1米5這樣子的一個規範嘛對不對這個是在"},{"start":10295.484,"end":10320.435,"text":"客觀的但是有時候老舊的一些巷弄甚至他可能不是計劃道路他就只是當初建築留下來的法控的一些繼承道路他可能劃不出來這麼多的空間但是當你劃不出來的時候難道就不劃嗎或者是說他中間有一根電桿他或許沒有地方一致的影響到他的進貫整條路可能100米中間有一兩根電桿那影響到他沒有辦法整條進貫都符合90公分以上這樣的規範就變成說"},{"start":10323.119,"end":10343.646,"text":"寧願沒有因為他沒有辦法符合規範我們就寧願沒有我們就不去動他我覺得這樣對行人的保障其實也不是太正面的一些事情啦那對於這樣子的一些狀況部長你個人的一些看法呢委員有提出這樣的問題確實有些舊的市區那個巷道非常狹窄所以不太容易找到這樣子的空間"},{"start":10344.486,"end":10365.685,"text":"那我會覺得如果地方上可以想出一些變通的方案即便是那個可能電線桿那個地方沒辦法化但前後有那行人過去閃一下或許有這個樣的機會那這個部分就法歸面怎麼讓基層的公務人員可以比較好去做這個我們想辦法我們知道做一定比較好"},{"start":10365.845,"end":10389.852,"text":"但是做了可能沒有辦法符合法規那就變成說進退為難了是 我們大概會找內政部大家一起來商量還有地方政府我最近也會跟地方政府的一些交通首長大家會有開會那我們來就這個議題我們來討論一下應該是做一些討論就是說我們能夠符合法規我們一定要求政府機關做的東西一定要符合法規行人通行優先但是當我們做不到的時候"},{"start":10390.492,"end":10411.345,"text":"不是因為法規的關係我們就擱置在那邊而是說我們知道法規在這邊但是因為客觀條件達不到但是我們還是要維護行人通行人安全那我們還可以做怎樣子的一個規劃跟妥協我覺得應該要授權地方在規劃的時候有一些指引授權他們有去做一些因地制宜的一些規劃好不好我們來討論一個變通的方案好再麻煩局長麻煩部長麻煩謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10419.05,"end":10424.233,"text":"謝謝廖先祥委員發言完畢 現在請邱若驊委員發言謝謝主席 主席再反請航港局局長邱榮豪"},{"start":10443.553,"end":10471.894,"text":"局長好 局長我們台灣是海島國家那海域的航道也是我們的經濟命脈因為能源97%是仰賴海域那貨物的貿易98%也是經由海域那所以船舶的安全還有港口的運作飲水制度是國際航運的信用根本那更關乎到國安可是近幾年我們接連看到海事事故接連發生那從外籍船舶碰撞 防波堤然後再到港區的作業失誤還有飲水過程的疏漏所以這樣都凸顯無關"},{"start":10473.235,"end":10492.102,"text":"凸顯和提醒我國就是我們的航岸管理制度需要做檢討跟改善那有幾個首先要先和局長討論我們船東哲樂縣PNI的審查心智剛才廖先生委員也有問到嘛那我們每年有超過一萬三千艘的外籍船舶進出港口那其中九成以上是不是都是權宜船"},{"start":10493.21,"end":10518.156,"text":"對 包委前一輪的部分的確是比例非常高比例非常高因為他們通常都是掛載成本比較低然後更審查寬鬆的國家那這樣的話安全就是取決於他船體還有航道的操作那我們剛才也我們也要討論就是事故後他可不可以透過PNI及時讓就是受損或是受害的單位還有環境可以可以獲得保障這很關鍵"},{"start":10519.076,"end":10533.235,"text":"那這次的航港局 局長您剛才提到10月15號正式上路的PNI審查新制喔那剛剛您有提到Triple B那除了Triple B之外還有沒有其他的要求呢還是只要有這個Triple B的四大這個信用平件機構就夠了呢"},{"start":10535.076,"end":10553.825,"text":"基本上Triple B在這個他是經過國際上的四大信用評等機構來確認他的履約的能力那基本上經過Triple B的這個認可依照我們專業保險顧問的建議認為他應該是有具有足夠的履約能力"},{"start":10553.885,"end":10570.626,"text":"所以只要這個TRIPLE B他不用同時就是他也要我國合法的保險公司跟國際傳統這個互保協會嗎他同時不用具備這樣的條件嗎包委員我不好意思我再幫他仔細一下國內的產險公司也是我們這個許可的名單裡面"},{"start":10572.187,"end":10588.175,"text":"所以比如說國內的這幾家產險公司都在我們現在公佈的49家名單裡面那本期想要請教請教局長那這個制度是不是真的能夠保障我們台灣呢還是因為我們進行的是所謂的實質的審查"},{"start":10589.876,"end":10601.847,"text":"所以第一個保險公司他是要有旅業能力的第二個他的保單保單的項目跟他的保額都也要符合我們的要求所以保額的部分針對"},{"start":10604.949,"end":10625.097,"text":"這個我們依照三港法要求的傳統責任險的部分是依照這個海商法的規定我們是依照他的噸位乘以162特別提款 局長我們來看就是運安會10月29號有公告一個調查報告針對台達二號液化天然氣船在台中港那時候他有觸碰到磅礡體的事件雖然"},{"start":10626.437,"end":10649.799,"text":"表面上看起來他有這個保險制度可以依循但是後續的他的賠禮的時效還有跨國的追查還有機關的協調我想本席想這個是關鍵因為我們從去年然後到2023年2022年然後像是巴拿馬的散裝船他就是他停靠就是因為他動力失能停靠在台北港停靠在基隆港那同時2022年也有這個長翅輪"},{"start":10651.32,"end":10672.127,"text":"他也是同樣是跨國的一個事件嘛那這樣這樣子的跨國的理賠程序通常要多久呢跨國的理賠程序其實是非常隆長那所以我們希望從源頭來處理起那這樣子跨國保險人跟受害方嘛那當時我們台灣是受害方那這樣子是由哪一個單位來做統籌"},{"start":10673.707,"end":10696.581,"text":"如果是海事案件的這個港區內的部分是港務公司港區外的部分基本上就是所以港務公司作為主責單位嗎港區內港區內的海事案件是那本席想要請教請教局長剛才你有提到97%其實他這個比例是完成申報的比例還是他是實際上通過航港局主案你們去做核對的實質審查"},{"start":10697.581,"end":10718.9,"text":"報告委員這個部分除了這個他是符合這個完成申報程序之外我們也完成實質的審查有實質的審查有實質的審查那我們公共委員報怎麼實質審查除了我們確定他的49家的名單內之外我們會去由專業的保險公司會去這個PMI"},{"start":10719.82,"end":10736.825,"text":"IG Club 我們叫國際的這個傳統護保協會的網站去查詢他這個確實是不是有這個保單是 局長您剛有提到你們從年初的時候就開始做宣導了那你們有沒有跟海巡署然後還有港股公司有沒有建立資料的互通"},{"start":10737.225,"end":10760.995,"text":"有 報告委員 我們現在的這個保險的這個系統叫MTNET那進出港系統 這個已經跟開放權限給港公司跟海保署他如果可以直接查詢傳播的保險資料那另外請教局長 那針對高風險的船系像LNG船還是游船 化學船艇那你們有沒有就是有要求更高的保險額 還有更明確的他的限時賠償門檻"},{"start":10762.341,"end":10786.137,"text":"有 除了我剛剛跟委員報告 航港局是依照海商法來要求這個保險的額度之外 海保署他依照海務法 針對高風險的船舶 包括LNG化學品船 郵輪這些高風險船 他們有另外的法規規定來提高較高的這個海務的責任的保險的額度 那我們的這個進港的這個保險額度的審查"},{"start":10787.538,"end":10808.375,"text":"是航港局要求的這個額度再加上海報署的額度這兩個額度都要符合才能夠進港OK好謝謝局長說明那最後就是本期肯定就是我們航港局推動這個新的制度那希望就實際能夠落實那我們之後有沒有就會會不會建立一個就是完成的審查撐過呢就是一個報告機制"},{"start":10810.069,"end":10836.522,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們可以來評估研究那因為我們剛開始上路實施我們現在做法是每一天都在這個監控有沒有這個違規的局長你有提到還有120多間121艘121艘你們還要再做輔導嗎那希望就是可以像是這樣子審查審查件數還是補正比例或是甚至是黑名單你們都可以完全的公開透明出來"},{"start":10837.162,"end":10852.523,"text":"那最後時間的關係局長就是你們有提到C月上線的傳播智慧檢查系統號稱這套系統它結合AI的辨識還有風險預測可以提高預警高風險的傳播可是這個是不是根據過去資本資料的集合呢這套AI系統"},{"start":10853.525,"end":10865.002,"text":"對 根本沒辦法我們這個新的智慧檢查系統有兩個主要的功能第一個是AI的影像辨識的技術它可以做這個那它能不能夠就是它辨識現在正在發生的航行紀錄"},{"start":10869.189,"end":10891.461,"text":"這個是要看這個我們利用大數據分析的這個技術來預測這個傳播他可能的缺失項目那這個是利用他過去檢查記錄利用統計的理論跟大數據分析的記錄所以他意思是說他目前還沒有串聯即時AIS的航機或是他的傳播維修還有他的保養履歷嗎他們有沒有串聯起來目前還沒有"},{"start":10892.001,"end":10920.033,"text":"那跨國事故跟扣船紀錄也同樣沒有被記錄在裡面委員這個建議我想是我們再進一步來是是是謝謝委員的寶貴建議謝謝秋若華委員發言完畢現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請林國成委員"},{"start":10921.246,"end":10942.833,"text":"林國成委員林國成委員不在現在請林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":10947.952,"end":10954.007,"text":"好 謝謝主席李坤哲召委我們是不是請交通部陳部長以及香港局局長請陳部長 請葉局長"},{"start":10959.673,"end":10982.314,"text":"部長好部長我今天談的是跟民生有關係的交通議題當然海濫七法很重要那我本席也有提案那希望未來可以並案審理那今天跟民生有關係的事在於我過去一直很關心這個行動電源的起火事故的問題包括之前我有要求你"},{"start":10983.155,"end":11001.576,"text":"高鐵台鐵我們如何做所謂的應變緊急處理指引那包括航空當然航空是更嚴格的來所謂的管制這個行動電源的放置的一個處所那現在呢除了這個陸跟空之外還"},{"start":11003.058,"end":11019.343,"text":"目前第一例10月31號發生然後11月1號有見報媒體有報導事故發生的當下的畫面也有揭露所以我就必須要問部長跟局長"},{"start":11020.203,"end":11036.39,"text":"我知道航港局有在9月26日有公布一個我國海運客船乘客攜帶離電池含行動電源的注意事項9月26號我們公布了之後結果10月31號就發生問題請問一下部長第一個"},{"start":11042.162,"end":11059.358,"text":"第一個我們公布了之後有做了什麼樣的措施來提醒要求這個不管是船公司也好或者是航線的運行之間的一個盤點也好或者是對旅客的宣導提醒也好我們做了哪些措施"},{"start":11059.938,"end":11085.013,"text":"跟委員報告因為您一直在提醒跟關心這個議題所以我們幾乎所有的交通運具不管是軌道的運輸或者是航空的運輸或路上的運輸跟海上的運輸其實我們這樣子的注意事項都有提出來那並且透過每一個運具以船來講就是航商那我們請航商在客人要登船之前要做這樣子的宣導包含他們的櫃檯都必須要做這方面的宣導"},{"start":11087.293,"end":11111.039,"text":"這個你們有稽查的或者是有什麼樣的機制來確定對 包委員這部分的確我們還要再加強那因為我們的這個注意事項發布的時間還不是那麼長那我這邊已經有請我們本局各航務中心要輔導要求航商一定要加強宣導那另外跟委員報告我們離島的航線我們還有海巡"},{"start":11111.879,"end":11131.234,"text":"單位來檢查這個旅客的行李那個海巡的檢查行李是在所謂的安檢安全檢查嘛 對不對那對於這個所謂的行動電源因為我們現在手機都需要行動電源那有沒有在海巡的檢查裡面我認為應該沒有"},{"start":11132.595,"end":11151.334,"text":"這個在不能拖運的部分是有的不能拖運的部分有沒有這個要講清楚喔因為在你們的質疑裡面那個它叫做什麼你們叫做注意事項對 注意事項不得拖運或者是放置在行李箱OK 那這樣的注意事項海巡今天有來對不對"},{"start":11152.696,"end":11163.137,"text":"海巡講一下那剛剛局長葉局長所說的在安檢的過程裡面對這個行李的裡面的行動電源海巡的檢查機制是什麼"},{"start":11164.04,"end":11193.332,"text":"包委員我們是負責國內有關上貨輪的貨物檢查但是依照海巡網我們偏重在犯罪就是安全檢查部分有關槍毒毒品這一方面所以行動電源還沒有在你們的安檢範圍裡面嘛對不對我們會再跟航空局再我們跟航空局再深入解決所以局長你你剛剛的回答所以我不是很滿意喔你說海巡也會檢查可是你看問了海巡海巡的檢查重點就不是在這裡嘛不好意思"},{"start":11193.812,"end":11214.133,"text":"那我的意思是說這個你們橫向的聯繫要建立一個標準的流程因為你們既然已經在9月26號訂了一個注意事項那也已經說明清楚那所以第一個跟船公司就是航商那怎麼去要求他們要落實宣導跟提醒"},{"start":11215.114,"end":11236.887,"text":"第二個 那海巡署這邊在做安檢的時候有沒有怎麼樣的一個時間點 角度Anyway 宣導提醒這個行動電源的安全放置的位置要隨身攜帶不可以放在行李裡面拖運這個我覺得你們兩邊第一個機制SOP要建立好"},{"start":11238.128,"end":11260.488,"text":"這關係的這海上說真的發生事情的時候是不是那已經有首例產生了發生的問題所以我跟你講安檢的宣導安檢的SOP怎麼跟海巡署建立機制怎麼跟航商就是所有的船公司要求再來這個在你們的這個安檢的宣導影片使用"},{"start":11261.909,"end":11284.524,"text":"還有未來未來當然是不希望發生可是發生的時候你們的緊急應變措施這個也是很重要的缺一不可來來 局長再給你機會再講清楚一點好 謝謝委員跟委員報告緊急應變的部分是我們定期都會去我們有定期要求航商要定期演練"},{"start":11285.385,"end":11313.878,"text":"那我們的航空中心同仁也會定期不定期去查你要求船公司航商要定期演練那定期演練在過去你們的要求應該是發生什麼樣的問題那怎麼樣的因應但是行動電源叫做離電池離電池發生事故的時候它不能用水它也不是用一般的滅火器所以現在的航商船公司船上有沒有配置"},{"start":11316.28,"end":11319.034,"text":"對應離電池或行動電源發生事故的相關的滅火設施"},{"start":11321.835,"end":11346.574,"text":"對 跟委員報告這個部分因為我們是有特別委託驗傳中心來這個提供所以還沒嘛 對不對對 那這個部分就是跟委員報告就是我們後續要求這個航商演練的這個訓練呢我們會給他們專業指導那讓他們針對離電池萬一有這個失火情形要怎麼樣正確處置來加強這個相關的教育訓練"},{"start":11347.755,"end":11365.461,"text":"來讓他們正確處置所以我當然感謝對海陸空行動電源的這樣子的一個事故的一個因應跟防應措施您也注重有採納我的建議那要求海陸空那現在看起來海運在航港局在海運的這一方面做得還不夠完整落實的層面我們要再加強"},{"start":11367.421,"end":11384.868,"text":"對 9月26號有所謂的注意事項的頒布但是還沒有落實 這第一個第二個在每一個環節裡面不管是宣導或者是跟其他單位的橫向的聯繫的因應的一個SOP也還沒有建立第三個這個應變措施裡面"},{"start":11386.088,"end":11412.457,"text":"還必須要再進一步的專業要求航商跟船公司那該有的這個什麼消防設施我們該補助或者是我們該要求就要嚴格要求是不是因為為什麼會提到這個不是只有行動電源是用離電池我們現在很多離島的鄉親如果說他要旅行或者是出入那他可能有什麼"},{"start":11413.757,"end":11435.507,"text":"電動自行車他有可能是輪椅的輔助車那這些有用到離電池的這些運具都有可能是在人民生活當中會透過海運來運輸那所以我建議一定要確實的落實不管是安檢宣導安檢"},{"start":11437.148,"end":11459.85,"text":"局處的一個SOP使用須知你們如何在這個民眾旅客在這個航運的過程裡面只要看得到的不僅僅是影片還有提醒再來我們的應變措施裡面要求的這個滅火的設備升級或者是多樣性我覺得這個都要嚴格要求你需要多久時間可以做得到"},{"start":11461.47,"end":11480.826,"text":"包委員我們這個盡量在努力在一個月之內包括很像我們跟海巡署的協調跟航商宣導的時候這個包括緊急應變的這個部分我們努力在一個月內把它完成好一個月內我要看到好不好第二個雖然時間到了我在提醒部長"},{"start":11481.807,"end":11494.521,"text":"非洲豬瘟的危機讓台中造成全國的這個民生經濟的危機那防疫大家都覺得一定要做好但是我只是提醒我們港口船隻"},{"start":11498.82,"end":11526.906,"text":"的廚餘的處理機制這個一定要嚴密的管控知道清楚流向跟處理部長你簡單回應沒錯 跟委員報告我們在香港的部分早就已經有在落實就是廚餘不落地就是說不可以進到我們裡面來這個部分我們有嚴格要求那另外針對船員如果要進來的部分我們也會做這方面的安檢這個部分已經落實很長一段時間但是我們在現在還會再更加強"},{"start":11527.622,"end":11534.366,"text":"要再更加強好不好那漁船的部分呢到時候再請揮霍給我漁業署今天有來對不對來揮霍給我漁船的進港的儲漁的處理機制給我書面資料謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝何欣存委員發言完畢現在請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":11560.683,"end":11571.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請我們NCC主秘以及我們交通部陳部長黃恩哲主秘陳部長"},{"start":11579.042,"end":11594.538,"text":"好 我今天主要討論的是我們國內電信現在這個有關於司機吃到飽逐漸被下架中那當然因為我們焦木也是中華電信的大股東所以我一併要請教就教於部長那祖密"},{"start":11595.499,"end":11624.659,"text":"我們現在國內電信他們已經賣入5G所以也確實在市場裡面已經開始有一些5G吃到飽的產品可是因為5G吃到飽非常非常的貴非常貴所以很多的消費者其實還是在資費方面他們還是選擇4G或者是包含有一些專案或者4G吃到飽的專案因為這次中間價格差到兩三倍之多"},{"start":11625.699,"end":11647.621,"text":"而且他們也覺得有關於4G現在的服務量他們也可以滿足可是從今年下半年開始我們國內的電信公司陸陸續續用一些技術上的比如說他在他的通訊行現在很多的其實很多的消費者到通訊行去購買"},{"start":11649.423,"end":11677.862,"text":"那麼可能你就說沒有沒有4G而且很多4G吃到飽的方案尤其是比較便宜的方案都被直接下架那你可以看到像這個我們在網路上都可以看到比如說現在遠傳的某個這個門市就告訴你4G 699吃到飽全台即將停售或者是一些通訊行說現在只有倒數幾天大家要買趕快"},{"start":11679.703,"end":11705.117,"text":"所以現在的問題就是說大家擔心的是像遠傳台灣大都是這些大型的這個電信業者那慢慢他們開始停止這些銷售據點而且或者是增加你申辦的門檻你要到比較遠的地方或者比較少你必須到他的直營門市你才買得到所以這恐怕會有一個聯合壟斷下架的狀況"},{"start":11707.498,"end":11724.814,"text":"那目前是兩大電信公司已經實施到現在大家最觀望的最關心的就是市場傳言中華電信也會跟進中華電信如果一旦跟進的話老師說我會立刻到公平會去告他們有聯合壟斷行為"},{"start":11726.676,"end":11748.236,"text":"因為這就是幾大這已經在市場的市佔率已經相當大了好所以呢我在這邊呢是先請教這個我們的這個NCC的主秘你們現在有沒有已經了解或者注意到這個問題那有沒有一些因應的措施怎麼樣去可以保障消費者的權益消費者任任可以在四級跟五級中間選擇才對啊"},{"start":11750.598,"end":11768.211,"text":"跟委員報告您在說的那個五級資費比較貴的有一部分的事實是因為那個他的資費綁手機所以他貴在那個手機的部分那至於說委員在講的是說第一個目前也還沒有所謂的壟斷聯合壟斷的樣一樣事情不過確實他們如果假設真的有他的資費方案用"},{"start":11769.312,"end":11777.515,"text":"用委員所說的這種勸導或什麼這種方式這個我們會去了解那原則上各式各樣的資費其實目前都還沒有我先講 主秘你講說沒有聯合壟斷行為我真的覺得你在幫業者說話那剛才我們在講說4G跟5G你無感 對不對你覺得這個它的服務量因為有很多5G然後自動就降流變成4G那至於說沒有壟斷的行為來 我們來看下一個"},{"start":11796.562,"end":11802.664,"text":"我剛才說四季赤道堡還可以看得到在市場上他們還會有一些價格的變化有的是499 有的588等等之類的可是啊可是我可以告訴你現在我們國內主要沖繩業者五季赤道堡價格是統一的"},{"start":11817.847,"end":11838.8,"text":"一律就是24個月1399這其實已經有聯合壟斷的行為了事實上你現在如果去弄5G吃到飽24個月只有單一價格可選如果是4G的話4G吃到飽你還可以有其他的價格可選所以這確實已經有涉及聯合行為"},{"start":11839.46,"end":11854.305,"text":"我們現在只是關心的因為你如果有四季可以選擇你五季吃到飽你單一那我們還覺得反正消費者還可以有其他的選擇如果你四季都沒有了然後因為全部都慢慢轉成五季那大家就只好選擇同一個同一個非常貴的價格"},{"start":11855.405,"end":11865.238,"text":"所以我要請這個NCC請站在消費者立場而不是在業者立場你看展地界說他們沒有聯合行為我告訴你價格就是一樣啊對不對好 然後因為我的時間關係我想請那個部長"},{"start":11871.005,"end":11886.232,"text":"因為中華電信我們現在就說市場現在最關心的就中華電信會不會跟進一旦跟進的話這真的就變成對所有4G的現在使用戶現在還高達全台高達1700萬戶以上"},{"start":11889.233,"end":11916.454,"text":"還高達1700萬戶以上使用的人還是很多但是你看到業者陸陸續續就在下架這些4G支費的相關的這個產品那所以我想請問一下中華電信的部分你這邊 因為我在這邊直接用質詢讓你知道這個事情是不是你也可以多關心一下希望中華電信不要全面的跟進全面的跟進對於這些4G使用的用戶來講我覺得對消費者是不利的"},{"start":11917.635,"end":11935.695,"text":"向委員報告目前中華電信沒有來跟我說市區要停的這件事情目前沒有報告他不是全面但是他就開始給你門檻通訊行下架然後很多就慢慢你只能到他的直營商只能到網路但你說這還是可以可是他已經增加你購買的難度了"},{"start":11936.616,"end":11950.315,"text":"第二點就是說目前它我看它4G的各種資費也都還在但第三點委員剛剛所提醒的這一點我回去趕快跟中華電信這邊了解一下盡量我們要站在消費者的立場來思考這件事情好 這一點就是說我一定要在這裡"},{"start":11952.157,"end":11977.565,"text":"來跟那個部長來做這個反應那我希望就是以現在雖然已經到5G的產品可是老師說現在很多消費者他們還是比較prefer還是比較他能夠繼續去使用4G他覺得這個是符合他的需求這個比例是很高的那我們就應該繼續去提供消費者這樣相關的產品好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11980.565,"end":11999.484,"text":"好謝謝王宏威委員發言完畢現在請邱振軍委員邱振軍委員邱振軍委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":12000.405,"end":12026.063,"text":"現在請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在現在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":12027.713,"end":12055.594,"text":"蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在現在請游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在"},{"start":12056.764,"end":12083.982,"text":"現在請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在現在請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在現在做以下報告徵紀執行委員軍旅發言完畢做以下決定一報告及巡打完畢"},{"start":12084.83,"end":12106.892,"text":"二、委員黃敬豪、游浩、林國成所提書面質詢,列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供書面資料或未及答覆部分,請蘇阿部、交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆。"},{"start":12112.889,"end":12124.137,"text":"針對本次會議做以下決議討論事項一至四個案軍令定期繼續審查本次會議結束 散會"},{"start":12140.316,"end":12158.148,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12169.701,"end":12186.254,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"165062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2087148c90fd6edcd6e3cb72f09a57cc5372a46263f608504a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:59:07 - 11:11:39","影片長度":"00:12:32","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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對不對所以我們的製造業8.5萬多家那麼它幾乎佔了90%它的勞動力也在這裡啊我們要怎麼樣協助他們"},{"start":674.705,"end":697.305,"text":"我們要怎麼樣協助他們我們現在提出的方案你轉型我給你補助你再借款我給你利息對不對你現在這麼做可是可是部長我要跟你討論一個實際的問題不然看得到吃不得到啊我現在就已經沒有辦法貸款了我應該要先生存下來才是重點啊"},{"start":698.286,"end":726.978,"text":"是不是我應該先生存下來啊所以針對於我們為國家這麼重大努力建設貢獻的傳統產業你是不是去考慮將現有的他們所貸款的你的利息怎麼樣協助他們你讓他們可以怎麼樣先存生存下來對不對因為沒有生存下來你會嚴重到我們所有的勞工啊你的就業率又會"},{"start":730.314,"end":749.148,"text":"這個又會有一個麻煩的事情產生啊對不對 是的所以你去原意好不好讓我們傳統的中小企業尤其製造類別的它能夠先生存下來能夠先生存下來這才是重點嘛你把你的經濟方案給本席我們一起來討論好不好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165061","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2231ede045c933afe6e3cb72f09a57cc5372a46263f608504a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:49:23 - 10:58:59","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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請工部長我們再請工部長部長我先請教一下這個第三屆經濟成長率衝到7.64這個很好的一個成績全年大到5%以上部長怎麼看"},{"start":22.653,"end":43.57,"text":"對啊 事實上在年中的時候我就覺得應該會有比較好的成績但是這個成績應該又比你預期的還更高了對 因為AI的需求真的比想像中要大所以到年底前這個5%以上應該是沒有問題沒有問題 可能還比想像中還要好甚至可能會更高"},{"start":44.591,"end":63.117,"text":"但是在這樣的狀況下我還是要提醒一點就是說其實是在AI的這些相關的包括出口的我還是要特別提醒在傳產的部分其實要特別要給予更多的支持跟重視啦部長要不要講一下對傳產這一塊我認為其實要加強對他們的支持跟重視不然那個差距感會更加的強烈所以為什麼"},{"start":64.737,"end":83.892,"text":"院长一开始就只是我们的中小微企业的振兴发展方案所以连续两年各编的就是超过100亿来支持中小微企业那之后还有两个就是特别预算振兴特别预算我们也编了461那这些经费主要都是会用在"},{"start":85.373,"end":102.334,"text":"您提到的传统产业跟中小企业全部会用在这边那当然从它的资金面来支持不管是可以贷款可以展延的部分或雨天不收展甚至于增加贷款的这个信保的额度然后或者是利息的补贴"},{"start":103.055,"end":124.913,"text":"那其他另外有一个就是升级转型的协助所以每一家的这个企业辅导像这些政策都能够很务实落实下去让这些传统产业有感你不要在我们的极其高成长的状况下的时候对我们现在也组织了这个辅导团到北中南然后分区大家每一个都有他的这个责任范围"},{"start":125.356,"end":153.667,"text":"那希望在這個區域裡面的中小微企業還有傳統產業都可以受到這個升級轉型的這個支持跟輔導好 謝謝部長那進來我請教一下其實我們的這個科技產業園區其實老舊的廠房更新這個都很重要那包括前陣男子甚至於談子都有做了這些更新這個我全力都支持那我希望這三個特別是老舊的廠房這樣的更新的速度要持續來做部長這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":155.228,"end":174.153,"text":"沒問題吧那前陣這一塊的他是把舊有的警察廳設改成財經大樓那616的經費在2029年會完成那我也希望一方面加速完成一方面加速完成之後我希望後面那個騰龍換鳥的工作持續進行部長這個政策上應該是沒有問題嗎沒有問題"},{"start":176.694,"end":199.65,"text":"對就是說把舊的廳舍拆掉蓋新的之後那原來那個移走的那個廳舍繼續再蓋新的那再把其他再移進來再蓋新的一棟一棟換因為它都是50年的早期50年的一個園區了所以很多的舊大樓更新之後成為新的一個符合科技園區的大樓這個才是讓潛在園區包括男子園區包括男子園區一個風華再現最好的做法"},{"start":200.69,"end":228.043,"text":"這個部長會全力支持啦好 謝謝那再來我也請教一下啦男子的部分其實剛剛提到了錢證6.6億男子也編了13億不是 談子編了13億但男子這一塊還沒有進行他需要架構跟拆除這個老舊廠房來興建我也希望這個加速來進行部長這個可以加速嗎這一個工程可以可以一個月內給我你們的規劃的報告好不好進度的報告"},{"start":228.903,"end":253.209,"text":"因為他需要把土地是國有的然後土地是經濟部的但是上面的廠房老舊廠房架構之後然後重新來蓋新的一個產房一樣騰龍換鳥的方式我希望這個加速來進行好不好一個月內給我你們的一個規劃的報告是好的好謝謝那再來我請教了其實台積電的部分台積電其實在我們的這個"},{"start":256.122,"end":271.118,"text":"中科有落場1奈米的部分那當然2奈米現在在高雄男子也加速在進行那1奈米的部分其實在白浦園區也持續在爭取我也希望部長能夠持續來協助啦齁其實當然男科"},{"start":271.738,"end":287.429,"text":"包括高雄的百普都是有機會的我也希望部長協助當我們電力水土地都準備好的時候我也希望鼓勵台積電一樣持續的往南邊走讓南邊能夠區域均衡發展的效果這個部長可不可以請你繼續支持"},{"start":289.851,"end":313.863,"text":"好 跟台積電持續溝通進到白浦 進到我們的高雄那再來我請教一下是用電的部分這個現在全台的用電其實環境的成本高雄跟雲林甚至台中都承擔的比較重的一些環境的成本那我認為其實對地方上面應該有公平的一些合理的對待 所以"},{"start":314.403,"end":340.295,"text":"當然我希望能夠思考一下推動一個差異的電價就是說有些地方是蓋電廠不蓋的不蓋電廠的但有些地方是很為了國家的電力的需求在蓋電廠的那這樣電廠狀況下的時候其實應該思考了某些區域他付出了相當多的空污付出相當多的一些代價的時候那我們能不能再給予他電價上面給予合理的對待"},{"start":340.615,"end":358.595,"text":"那當然有些地方用電量高但是你卻沒有電廠你也不願付出的那差異電價這個部分部長這個考不考慮邦委員這改變比較大所以我們現在是用促銜金或回饋金的方式來"},{"start":360.106,"end":377.092,"text":"支持在地的這個民眾出血經跟回饋經如果有具體的成效的話就不會發生很多地方其實不要蓋整個電廠上的其實狀況是遇到這樣的問題的啦那我是希望是至少如果你用差別電價的時候比如說高雄發了很多的電"},{"start":378.253,"end":394.088,"text":"燃氣電廠一直在蓋這個雲林也在蓋台中也在蓋的時候那他覺得我有被照顧到我的電價可能比較便宜一點點因為你的電廠所以你有便宜了一點你心理上至少覺得政府有在重視我的感受那如果你本身用電量大你卻都沒有"},{"start":394.848,"end":421.79,"text":"也不願意蓋電廠的你的電價稍微高一點點有電廠也有一個好處現在尤其是算力或者是AI時代的來臨事實上它有極大的優勢很多好的不是啊那就必須要讓這些優勢很具體的呈現出來啊但是在很多時候我並沒有看到這樣的比如說輝達選擇輝達總部的選擇還是選擇在台北啊總部比較不需要電力但是它的算力中心它是跟但是我們要的是更好的產業的嘛"},{"start":422.771,"end":440.914,"text":"是 所以他的算力中心是在高雄啊部長 這樣的思維其實是有點問題的我要的不是那個我要的不是比較辛苦比較低薪在低端低薪在做的我要的是高端的東西啊沒有 算力中心是很高端算力中心跟這個總部當然大家選擇要總部啊"},{"start":442.316,"end":456.489,"text":"誰會希望自己用的是一個高耗電高用電的椅子但沒錯都是好啦但是相較能選擇當然大家要的當然都是總部都是研發中心誰會希望自己的是算力中心這個"},{"start":457.25,"end":486.196,"text":"台積電製造廠他一定要在有電所以我希望曾警長先是同步要去思考同步請 不打同步思考要不你要讓用電量發電量大的城市感受到政府在鼓勵的力道上是大的讓企業進去的力道是大的那這樣子當然就會覺得對我發的電多我是為我的儲備有更多電力讓更多產業進來那這樣就有感 人民就會有感那如果沒辦法做到這一點的話那你的差別天價就要思考"},{"start":486.536,"end":512.436,"text":"你要讓真正為國家付出這麼多電的他有感受到我付出這麼多我有沒有得到政府的公平的思考我們再來講你看六都的電力裡面的自給率高雄是第一名桃園第二台北是最低的台北1.4%而已但是所有的總部所有的所有東西都是幾乎到台北去了這樣是嚴重的不公平包括在統籌分配款裡面我們看台北拿到了400多億台北拿到400多億六都最多"},{"start":513.337,"end":538.851,"text":"中南部反對相對都是少的所以在這種失衡不公平的狀況下的時候一定要用各種方式讓人民感受到我們政府有在思考一個公平性的原則如果在電力上面的時候大家電力不斷是中南部供應電力然後北部在做使用但是電價卻全部一樣那投資多數都集中在北部的時候那中南部鄉親的感受怎麼會好呢所以我希望"},{"start":539.491,"end":562.686,"text":"要整體去思考 我也希望差別另一件事情經濟部跟台電要納入思考我當然知道這是一件很不容易的事情但是唯有思考的時候你們才會認真去對待這件事情才認真去思考著不應該讓國人民有一塊人是很認真積極的配合國家政策在發電但有一邊的人是我要用電 我要招商 但是我不要發電我希望這件事情經濟部長要審慎思考這件事情 好不好"},{"start":563.98,"end":575.115,"text":"不過我們現在還是優先趕快均衡台灣相關的政策來推動部長 剛剛你講的均衡台灣跟差別電價這兩件事情請你一個月給我一個評估報告好不好給我評估意見 好 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謝謝主席那麻煩幫我們請劉世芳部長還有國土署的吳新修署長我們這裡的部長請吳署長杜元豪好 部長那我先今天想說跟你們討論一下有關於我們桃園航空城計畫一個關鍵基礎的建設工程那我大概先說明一下那有一條道路就是我們客運園區到機場的聯絡道路"},{"start":31.339,"end":51.105,"text":"這條道路全名是桃園市科育園區到機場聯絡道路大園區環區北路到環區東路入口到老街西的新建工程新P工程那這個工程是由我們國土署來負責總經費是7億那國土署出5億市府出2億"},{"start":52.185,"end":71.225,"text":"那這整個工程設計施工全部是由國土署來做那這個部分署長應該也很知道他在111年的11月就來通車可是要跟部長署長來說明一下他不到半年這整個路面就塌陷"},{"start":72.196,"end":84.505,"text":"然後而且那整個歸列的非常非常的嚴重那也可以看一下我們的照片喔那後來當地的議員跟市府養工處都有去現場去勘查那當然"},{"start":86.84,"end":109.786,"text":"我們大概看一下這個時間表他從111年5月工程驗收再到111年11月1號通車又到112年的6月不到半年的時間道路就開始嚴重的損壞 坍塌 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你知道最近有幾個案子第一個就是這個111年發生在新北市中和轄區因為警察要逮捕懸掛偽造車牌的車輛結果他就是開槍打死了在車輛裡面後座無辜的第三者乘客請問一下這個警察機關補償這一位男乘客多少錢"},{"start":163.914,"end":179.394,"text":"現在在補償協議目前沒有成立那在行政書院當中你覺得他們機關拿出來為什麼協議不成立因為那個機關怕襲擊無辜的第三者那個機關提出原始多少價要補償人家 署長"},{"start":182.649,"end":186.631,"text":"這個部分我們可能還要再了解一下這個個案我都給你詢問了你們警政署都知道了你都給我回覆了你們就以說協議不成立還在討論當中在訴願當中你們知道價嗎我告訴你不是六百萬也不是打五折三百萬你們機關要賠償人家是一百五十萬"},{"start":207.213,"end":215.857,"text":"我現在講的是合法使用警械無辜的第三人如果留彈那個是講這個車內的我們都知道打這個要追捕的時候開槍打輪胎容易子彈會反彈如果在路邊走路隨隨便便你部長我立委每一個人民都有可能成為無辜的第三者"},{"start":232.964,"end":244.892,"text":"而我們都知道這個警察合法使用警械所以這個無辜的第三者我們保護了警察的生命安全了那無辜的第三者的生命安全為什麼要付出這個代價你們不是給人家600萬也不是給人家300萬你們給人家150萬"},{"start":255.458,"end":282.791,"text":"你說這個家屬會同意嗎我今天在講我不是要談這一個個案雖然這一個個案我再講一下因為這個個案不是我要討論的當初警察有沒有過失責任的時候檢察官起訴了開槍的員警過失致死刑事二審的時候警察仍然無罪死者的家屬氣到打電話到法院裡面去"},{"start":284.588,"end":292.079,"text":"你知道氣到我認為他是講氣話但是我覺得家屬這種行為不可取也不合法但是他是這樣講的"},{"start":293.447,"end":296.289,"text":"我已經找好黑道要買槍了他最想要殺掉的人是法官我現在不是要講我認為這件事情是他的企劃但是是不應該但我是要凸顯如果你我每個人的家屬在路上走路被榴彈傷及死亡如果一個分局跟你說我150萬補償你"},{"start":321.977,"end":323.981,"text":"那個家屬情何以堪啊"},{"start":324.89,"end":332.513,"text":"所以這是不是代表了過低的補償等於是對死者以及對死者的家屬這個是非常的不合理啊所以報告部長你說生命無價但是你們的補償條例定成這個樣子就算了600萬人家食物面食物面是給150萬你叫人家要達成協議那有可能那有可能"},{"start":354.929,"end":364.108,"text":"保定 人民不能用金錢來衡量然後呢 是無價的 你剛才講的這樣的差距會不會太大了 部長"},{"start":367.665,"end":376.435,"text":"那個委員我想你提的部分非常有理啦我們會來檢討一下看怎麼樣處理就是因為不管是我不是在討論個案喔我知道我今天講一個人命六百萬夠嗎可以嗎還有極度重殘"},{"start":387.299,"end":411.598,"text":"450萬你如果極度重殘在那裡送到安養院一個月安養費用四五萬一年要60萬你給他450萬他可以在那裡住七年八年之後他的餘生餘命的費用誰要負擔啊如果重度殘障重度失能375萬如果聘僱外勞的成本一年也要將近50萬"},{"start":413.527,"end":422.398,"text":"如果這樣子在家裡自己看顧你450萬375萬個顧幾年之後他的餘命餘生誰要去負擔啊蛤"},{"start":428.257,"end":456.846,"text":"一個無辜的生命在國家行使公權力的過程當中被意外的結束掉了他的生命國家不能夠袖手旁觀連一個最起碼的保障都沒有更不要講溫暖所以人民怎麼感受得到說這樣的做是對的你要修正寶丁你是不是說你要修正那個我跟委員報告一下那個委員所提到的警戒使用條例是111年"},{"start":458.393,"end":472.175,"text":"那在第11條裡面有提到說前項的補償項目基準程序跟相關事項的辦法由內政部定之所以內政部未來會根據委員所提到的會不會合乎我們現在社會上認知的一個基準我們會來做檢討改進"},{"start":474.111,"end":478.214,"text":"對啊 你要檢討改進啊但我不曉得你們的想像是什麼一條人命六百萬 結果 食物面署長 食物面這個無辜的第三者 你們中和分局給我們說賠一百五十萬這個情何以堪啊六百萬都不合理了 你還說一百五十萬不是打八案者欸 不是三百欸無辜的欸"},{"start":500.455,"end":524.76,"text":"如果是榴彈 你的警政署有說過 你警察大學的授信有說過其實警察開車 開輪 開車打輪胎是最危險的打輪胎打不準 有時候會殘跳 很容易誤傷無辜喔我現在講如果不改的話是怕個案太多不敢改要不然就是對警察的專業沒信心 要不然就是對治安沒信心"},{"start":526.127,"end":541.833,"text":"所以這個這個我想都不是啊我相信部長今天在這裡這樣宣示部長這樣宣示我們正面看待而且這樣子希望你們可以更積極的作為但是書長書長國際觀執行面不是這樣執行面不是這樣更離譜"},{"start":545.637,"end":550.782,"text":"跟委員報告 委員這個非常支持警察的這個正確使用的這個槍枝因為每個狀況都非常的不一我們不要講非常狀況不一我們在講合法使用無過失對 無過失造成這些的一個相關的不幸的事件我想這個有補償 不然我們委員這個講了 我也認同我們來做一個"},{"start":570.339,"end":581.705,"text":"你認同這是不合理的現在的狀況不合理吧現在的狀況確實有真的是落差太大了有蠻大的落差這個我們會來做檢討這個辦法我們來做檢討有署長跟部長的承諾你們的檢討是要多久的時間三個月好不好這個三個月的時間我們來檢討好 可以 謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2e059b0e6eac43d07367e5b5a2f2752d0372a46263f608504f6224e177d86ebea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:43:49 - 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麻煩請部長謝謝好 有請部長葉委員你好部長好 先請教一下那個公廣的董事到底什麼時候要送來啊送到立法院剛才前面有幾位委員問同樣一個問題就是其實我們很早就啟動了啟動之後我們在徵求的過程中的確是到了最近最近就只差一個左右"},{"start":35.765,"end":40.608,"text":"那只差一個左右只差一個所以要等那一個確定之後再送來是不是"},{"start":44.386,"end":73.766,"text":"是嗎最近是嗎這什麼時候 因為你拖很久啦他按照道理來講這個胡元輝董事長應該是在今年5月19號就卸職啦結果因為沒有新的人所以已經一直延任那如果一直沒有人的話胡元輝董事長很想要叫我趕快換他每次都問我說什麼時候名單可以出來所以大家不要誤會我沒有說他很想做喔我沒有這樣講喔你幹嘛要這樣子我沒有這樣講喔我現在是問說因為按照法治"},{"start":74.566,"end":97.275,"text":"我們總是要法治 總不能說你高興什麼時候提就什麼時候提沒有錯 沒錯現在已經都過了五個多月了都一直沒有人來 理論上來講你應該在他卸任半年前就要提等於你晚了將近一年文化部可以晚將近一年把董事名單送過來審查其實是很慢 他總共任期三年你慢提了一年 三分之一"},{"start":99.226,"end":126.252,"text":"這個我覺得實在是太久了啦所以你應該要給一個承諾就是什麼時間點然後你總不能說我吃吃等一個人吧那個人不答應我就是要等到他答應為止然後這樣又過三年我覺得大家也不能接受啦所以大概什麼時候總是要有個dayline嘛大概什麼時候其實我們就只差一個但是就很難找的原因是我們希望找來的人你們沒有公開跟大家推薦不行啊 這個是秘密啊"},{"start":127.048,"end":140.763,"text":"不是啦 我是說公開請大家推薦最後你決定誰當秘密嘛但是我想這沒有那麼困難以前的文化部長都沒這個問題那您上任就有這個問題那可能就是你的問題了啦好不好 盡快啦 那什麼時候"},{"start":141.803,"end":171.022,"text":"總之要給自己一個因為按照依法你早就要送來的沒錯這個對不對公共電視法第16條委員你講的都完全對我自己很抱歉因為從來沒有文化部長會在這麼久提不出來那之前的文化部長都非常按照規定在前半年就提了提完之後有兩次是隔了一千天才產生最後的換句話說這一千天都是原來的董事長跟董事會在待所以後來我們才會修法說"},{"start":172.343,"end":188.35,"text":"如果產生不咬的話原來這些董事繼續做的原因就是過去的經驗那個是一個彈性啦但並不是說反正既然這樣子我就不提了不會不會我覺得不是部長請你快一點啦因為感覺上你好像也沒辦法給一個承諾啦對我實在好那"},{"start":189.631,"end":212.06,"text":"先來跟您請教因為董事其實他對於有一些決策影響力很大甚至還會推翻文化部的決定我們來看去年大家很關心就是公廣集團怎麼忽然間要砸3000萬投資AI呢當時在審預算的時候也有討論公廣集團的說法是說他們要賺錢所以要投資3000萬做這件事情可是我們當時也有質疑過"},{"start":213.581,"end":234.143,"text":"因為他這個所謂的投資AI只是把一些設備更新或是借一些活動其實沒有到達人家講的所謂AI的那一種標準跟水準那我後來看到文化部你們好像有去踩煞車你們好像有去踩煞車你們有跟他們公廣集團說因為他們要必須要先修訂一個投資管理辦法你們跟他說這個先緩議"},{"start":235.604,"end":262.405,"text":"結果我看你們7月23號發文給公廣集團跟他說叫他緩議結果在公廣集團的會議記錄裡面砲聲隆隆把你打臉的這個 我也感到不值啦像這個胡董事長袁輝就說文化部你憑什麼管我們文化部你在投資管理辦法只有被查的權限沒有核定跟緩議的權限所以文化部要求緩議方式處理已經越權了"},{"start":264.233,"end":285.065,"text":"不然你越權了啦 好不好然後再來那個黃監察人明輝說文化部不宜直接駁回或要求還議然後其他的董事一樣砲聲隆隆啊像這個郭董事立心說文化部做法已經超越主管機關的職權了啦所以他們做一個決議第一個文化部韓文所敘述的部分"},{"start":286.4,"end":309.773,"text":"部分與事實不符啦 要給予澄清啦 還說你們造謠第二個呢 說主管機關對於公共媒體營運的獨立自主要尊重所以你們影響到他們的獨立啦再來呢 他說要正式函附文化部表達他們的立場那 部長 最後這個事情到底怎麼樣這個我簡單講 就是因為公廣集團忽然間"},{"start":311.212,"end":332.371,"text":"要投資三千萬做AI外界爭議很大文化部想要踩煞車所以跟公廣講說先緩一緩然後結果公廣集團說文化部沒有這個權利那這是八月他們討論的那現在已經十一月初了所以我不知道最新的進度到底文化部對於公廣集團是有沒有影響力還是還是這個事情就是會繼續做下去啊部長"},{"start":336.917,"end":363.785,"text":"其實我知道他們為什麼那麼氣的原因是因為他大概 我們剛才看到華視的虧損年年增加到有一天沒有啦 部長我沒有問你他為什麼氣啦不是我看出來他很氣我只是問說這個事情到底進展如何所以這個事情是文化部要做還是不要做我們的確是沒有辦法叫他不要做只能建議他寫更清楚因為他的確他報備就OK啊所以今天共和集團有人來嗎"},{"start":364.725,"end":390.732,"text":"有啊 那非常憤怒 我也覺得要請他自己解釋一下跟你解釋 然後跟社會大眾解釋啦就是 哇塞 這個用詞譴制簡直很不給部長面子耶請問總經理所以要請總經理嗎對 總經理所以你們這個事情是怎麼樣 現在因為8月21號嘛 現在已經11月初了所以這個事情是因為你們確定不理文化部了嘛"},{"start":391.513,"end":396.024,"text":"不是啦 會議紀錄這樣寫的啦這不是我掰的啊 我們都有秀出來啊"},{"start":397.106,"end":424.933,"text":"所以你們接下來這個事情準備要修改了嘛對不對 那個投資管理辦法管理辦法還是會修改修改之後還是要依照程序修改完有沒有再送文化部有沒有其實一直都會送文化部不是啊 8月21號以後還沒送嘛就是你還是確定不理文化部的懷疑嘛還是會送那文化部只能依法核定嘛那文化部依法核定之後你們什麼時候開始投資三千萬目前還沒有"},{"start":425.373,"end":449.046,"text":"還沒有這個動作還沒有這個動作那大概什麼時候要有這個動作我們目前也是希望新的董事會成立以後再做進行新的董事會成立之後再來投資是不是對 再經由審議程序來OK 好 謝謝部長 部長部長 文化部說確定不理你啦要再送啦到時候你再看怎麼回啦好然後再來我們再來看一下"},{"start":450.219,"end":473.476,"text":"再問一下也是台灣Plus的事情因為上一次很多棒球迷心碎了因為本來台灣Plus在國慶的時候推出一個原創紀錄片它是在敘述台灣怎麼樣奪下世界棒球12強首冠傳奇故事其實應該是還蠻不錯 蠻好看的感動人心可是上架沒多久就下架我們私下了解這個紀錄片是花了一百多萬拍的"},{"start":474.315,"end":483.39,"text":"然後應該是昨天去看他現在依然沒有上架等於是這100多萬就丟在水裡了請問部長您知道這個事嗎"},{"start":485.475,"end":512.414,"text":"我不太清楚你不清楚 這新聞鬧很大在網路上也討論很熱烈還是請攤發執行長說明一下請他自己解釋等一下再請那個部長這個您也是要監督一下先聽他怎麼講報告委員 這個事情是這樣因為我們委託了個廠商他是向中華棒球協會取得畫面那畫面當中有部分的版權需要再取得愛爾達的授權那這個在授權過程當中我們發現有點瑕疵所以請他暫時下架"},{"start":512.854,"end":525.673,"text":"那另外再調整過後過一陣子我們會再說過一陣子要多久因為已經很久了我們現在審我們這個製作完以後我們會請外部專家再審片再檢查一遍以後才會大概近期那你們內部會有什麼機制嗎因為這個事情蠻扯的第一個你浪費納稅人錢"},{"start":528.216,"end":545.268,"text":"第二個 你算是有國家資源投入的一個媒體居然有侵權行為事先的管控都沒有做到我們在合約中有證明 乙方要負責沒有啦 推給乙方那甲方都沒責任那甲方你們好好做喔以後出事都乙方做事就對了"},{"start":545.848,"end":566.751,"text":"不會 我們內部會再重新檢討對 所以你這個機制有問題嘛那你們有做出什麼檢討嗎這種事情棒球迷很生氣耶這要看的時候怎麼會因為Town Plus的問題因為侵權因為侵權這種理由然後下架 到現在還沒上片這個一定要有一個檢討啦要給棒球迷一個交代啦"},{"start":567.948,"end":583.52,"text":"對 不能說那廠商問題跟我無關我覺得這種態度國人不能接受我們會檢討 然後修好以後再重新上台那大概什麼時候給大家一個 不能無止盡量下去希望在12月之前重新上台12月之前是好 謝謝然後再來喔 那個部長跟請教 中央社也是文化部補助的嘛"},{"start":584.466,"end":609.219,"text":"中央社最近也有一個話題就是時代雜誌有一個華府的智庫亞洲計畫中心主任叫高德斯坦他在時代雜誌上面有一篇文章講到賴清德總統是魯莽的領導人大概是這樣這個背景你應該曉得然後結果中央社的報導因為他報導說高德斯坦"},{"start":610.806,"end":622.737,"text":"這篇文章他沒有講說是高德斯坦的文章他直接說時代雜誌報導所以呢中央社很生氣就說要懲處我們來看一下中央社的一個聲明"},{"start":623.789,"end":641.586,"text":"我們來看中央社的聲明 他說本社10月24號報導美國時代雜誌刊登文章指賴總統是魯莽領導人本社並未易寫時代雜誌文章他簡單講這個意思是這樣啦就他說這不能怪 中央社都不能怪我啦因為我們不是直接去寫說"},{"start":644.378,"end":655.928,"text":"這個是時代雜誌的文章 我們是轉述外交部的新聞稿 而外交部的新聞稿講說是時代雜誌的文章所以 不是我們直接講的 是我們轉述外交部的聲明稿"},{"start":656.823,"end":679.14,"text":"但是中央社覺得這個報導處理不當要對記者編輯督導主管進行懲處請問一下現在懲處什麼是怎樣懲處很感謝委員問這個問題因為我想說外界實在是講的沒有完全完整據我知道處理的滿完整是不是請胡社長跟您報告就是現在是給他們寄過還是怎麼樣怎麼懲處"},{"start":681.889,"end":707.875,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心外界報導很多其實事實上我們到現在為止並沒有還沒有進行到懲處我們必須講這件事情各界的意見正反兩面差異非常大而且非常非常的龐大超過我們可以我可以感覺到這個事情所反映是台灣社會的政治立場的多元性但我很希望這個事情能夠回歸到新聞本業專業的"},{"start":709.735,"end":711.076,"text":"市長可不可以長話短說 好不好"},{"start":737.356,"end":763.046,"text":"因為我們時間有限 權威機構有做在先但我們作為新聞媒體呢還是要負責把關我們是略有把關不力跟查證不足我們很慎重所以我們到昨天自律委員會請了四位外聘委員來解說這個新聞原理我希望能回到新聞原理那委員我們內部都有共識就是教育這個事情是一個在職教育因為這case很特殊不好意思"},{"start":764.227,"end":780.907,"text":"我覺得大家 我問得很明確啦因為你說將 將懲處嘛那現在是還沒懲處嘛還在研究要怎麼懲處中嘛不是 昨天下午是新聞自律委員會開會沒有沒有 這過程不要我們直接講解因為這個你要講可能你可以講一小時啊我怕主席隨時會站起來"},{"start":782.228,"end":807.038,"text":"對 就是你現在還沒懲處嘛 還沒有嘛但是你們會懲處嘛 只是過程你要研究嘛因為爭議很大 大概是這樣 長話短說是這樣沒錯嘛 還沒懲處啦好 謝謝 我有再一分鐘 因為他們講比較久就是我覺得 這個懲處真的很奇怪啊我真的覺得非常奇怪啊第一個外交 你們說你們是引述外交部的聲明那外交部自己都沒懲處了"},{"start":808.888,"end":832.494,"text":"外交部都沒懲處 如果外交部應該更氣啊你們發稿的人怎麼害中央社引述錯誤 害人家懲處外交部要先懲處 外交部都沒懲處 中央社說要先懲處我覺得這很奇怪 非常非常非常奇怪這個我不知道為什麼這樣子啊 那麼害怕只是因為報導了賴總統是魯莽的領導人 中央社就嚇成這樣然後 第二"},{"start":833.632,"end":849.128,"text":"你說那個高德斯坦我們回到剛剛高德斯坦的那篇文章他是投書嗎這也不是投書好不好他是一個實在雜誌的邀稿邀稿跟投書一樣嗎社長你也是媒體人嘛 一樣嗎"},{"start":851.241,"end":874.338,"text":"這完全不一樣的狀況這個是時代雜誌要寫一篇報導然後邀了一個學者跟他的觀點一樣的文章投書感覺好像民意論壇不是嘛然後那個時候我看到很多民進黨的人在洗地就是說這個只是投書啦不能代表時代雜誌的立場如果我今天投書自由時報去罵賴清德他會採用嗎"},{"start":876.464,"end":898.061,"text":"不可能是嘛我覺得這個事情中央社自己不用那麼怕啦好像得罪賴總統就這麼害怕都要懲處然後我覺得真的不用然後中央社我認為你們報導如果你要講到這個事情另外給你一個建議啦該寫的東西還是要寫啦你看喔前兩天那個應該是禮拜天的時候美國的戰爭部長戰爭部長弄一個貼文"},{"start":903.8,"end":928.936,"text":"他說他講了一個他跟川普通過電話然後說美中關係這個有史以來最好然後又講他跟董軍的電話如何如何如何其實媒體人一看就知道這個新聞點因為我以為你又超過2分鐘30秒30秒那個點這個點就是在美中關係有史以來最好結果我們看中央社的報導講了一大堆就是沒有提到美中關係從此如此好"},{"start":929.736,"end":957.574,"text":"就故意審閱這句好像報導人家講說美中關係好這件事情又怕會得罪會不會影響到抗中保台路線啊是不是又會得罪今上中央社我覺得真的不用如果說真的是一個國家通訊社就要中立啦要中立什麼樣的立場都要報導希望中央社可以做到啦謝謝委員指導好不好部長有沒有部長兩句話評論一下部長 部長因為中央社也是你補助的"},{"start":960.202,"end":978.883,"text":"我不知道該講什麼我覺得大家誤會好像蠻深的其實台灣從過去的威權走到民主國家不能再走回威權不過沒有我就是要講這個譬如說委員對我們的質詢我覺得都很有道理講得也非常好其實我們沒有"},{"start":979.824,"end":1003.095,"text":"已經走到民主國家就不能回頭嘛所以大家一直懷疑中央社也好公廣集團也好其實至少我來這邊已經快一年多我從來沒有干預過這就是一個進步嘛一個進步國家就是你已經爭取到言論自由你已經爭取到民主制度你就不會再回頭這一點我覺得大家在媒體上講講講講講後來好像真的又回頭"},{"start":1003.895,"end":1013.74,"text":"這不可能的部長我很肯定你但我們講話都有憑有據跟你立場一樣好不容易走到民主不要再回頭媒體也不要幫執政黨擦脂抹粉謝謝謝謝葉遠之 葉遠之詢部長請回座"}]}},{"id":"165038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d21498d0eecef4c0b0575289a78f60fae5462d9096eb7c9b674afa53514610baff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:36:56 - 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外交部部長"},{"start":11.892,"end":33.754,"text":"部長好 最近有一些相關的新聞讓我有點憂心首先就是之前的美媒他有發布說這個部長在九月紐約設宴那多方的美方高層原本預定出席卻沒有現身但是有部分媒體就直接草擬說無人到場"},{"start":34.855,"end":56.39,"text":"那部長我想請教一下這是不是我們從1971年退出聯合國後首次由外交部長受邀前往聯大期間舉辦的非官方週邊活動所以這是當然第一次在聯合國大會期間當然台灣的外交部長到紐約而且出席週邊的活動所以是首次"},{"start":58.206,"end":78.375,"text":"所以算是在歷史性來講他某種程度也算是突破可是在這種突破的狀況之下因為要因為跟美方的默契我們也沒有主張要大肆的去宣傳我是擔心是不是有心人士他一方面可能是見不得國家好那見不得國家往前走那故意放這種消息嗎應該不會有這種狀況吧"},{"start":80.556,"end":99.752,"text":"其實我是覺得這是一個認知作戰的一部分因為最近包括聯合國大會之後像APEC 川習會你看一波一波從某一些外媒他資訊是怎麼來當然背後我們也在做分析那也會做好媒體試讀這樣的一個事情其實主辦單位是有"},{"start":104.199,"end":120.942,"text":"貼文的就是說那不是我們台灣外交部長在那個地方辦宴會而是我們是受邀那有上百個人出席的場合這麼多人那所以竟然會有這樣的訊息說當事人在現場然後看到我們都請不到人來參會上面就說那個消息人士說台灣感到挫敗其實在這種狀況之下怎麼會有什麼挫敗我們是很大的進展啊"},{"start":133.405,"end":159.15,"text":"那這些人到底有心人是在挫敗什麼感到什麼東西而且又配合又要怎麼撤換我國的駐美代表這一連串的新聞這樣全部跑出來無中生有加油添醋我希望我們國家要面對中國的挑戰已經很大了不要再有內部希望大家團結支持外交部能夠走出去千萬不要再這樣子內部如果還要結合中國勢力來打壓我國外交的話"},{"start":159.73,"end":188.196,"text":"那我老實說這是很痛心的事情當然美國也有一些不同意識形態的利益團體也有想要去引導他們的美國的這個對中對台的政策鼓勵主義等等這樣的人都有但是結合了一些媒體甚至他們有投資的關係或者是說那個訊息來源本身有接受委託這個我們當然都一一都會去把這個個案把它研究清楚之後來做好媒體的試讀"},{"start":189.036,"end":202.247,"text":"在陽光底下沒有所謂可以掩蓋的如果有內部人士做類似這樣的做法遲早都會被發現所以我要感謝像杜益景先生他這個幫我們把這個整個資訊的就是"},{"start":208.696,"end":234.154,"text":"這個演變啦做了很好的分析那貼在他的社群媒體上才讓大家了解是哪個環節被擴大或扭曲但是你看喔包括有政黨的到黨主席到他們的這個所謂的文傳會的這個負責人都用前面錯的訊息在批判台灣的我們外交"},{"start":237.036,"end":246.364,"text":"我是覺得這個不應該再去推波助瀾啦有講過的最好能夠道歉啦不然這個會留住好像變成這個"},{"start":248.147,"end":276.738,"text":"錯的事情現在變成當作一個前提在做很多批判對啊 這個如果再去解釋的話反而就又被拿來做延伸我們覺得不太好那沒關係 我們想請教一下部長那既然我們在台美關係從這一個在他的參加非官方周邊活動開始那我認為我們在台美關係的這種促進上面其實應該是有進展的吧是我問問部長最近有沒有什麼具體合作的項目有沒有達成什麼"},{"start":279.077,"end":293.133,"text":"因為川普總統的新政當然有除了安全面我想印太戰略很清楚我想大家都知道川普政府對於台海安全的重視跟支持"},{"start":293.573,"end":311.087,"text":"但是我就從其他他比較關注的新的面向包括關稅還有包括像這個232條款還有包括像半導體跟這個AI相關的這個這個他的一個政策我們其實都做好準備跟川普政府的政策是可以對接的"},{"start":311.867,"end":339.273,"text":"那當然這個最近陸續我想因為大家過去有在有一些人在操弄的棄台論跟以美論其實經過這一波川普來到這個亞洲出席東協跟APEC然後也召開了很多包括川習會等我想應該是大家會比較清楚就是川普總統的他們的一個對這個對台灣的政策那我簡單講一下這一次當然沒有意外發生都是因為台美很好的溝通"},{"start":340.553,"end":362.601,"text":"我也速度在被委員問到的時候我們是有信心的要關心但不要過度擔心那對台美關係要有信心那我們也看到因為有一些除了川普總統他提到的這些很重要那台灣是台灣那美中關係是美中關係手勢是兩回事以外包括像Marco 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谢谢主席 我想要请龚部长我们再请龚部长龚部长早安我想要请问你你知道美国最高法院现在在审理川普政府他对等关税的合法性什么时候会出来你们有没有评估好像大家评估说一月吧 是不是"},{"start":31.978,"end":54.806,"text":"這個就要看美國最高法院的審理的進度你們都沒有評估嗎行政院或者你們經濟部相關的都沒評估嗎我們現在做好就是對等談判還是做好最好的準備因為我們不曉得談判可能的結果但是我們也理解就是說談判會在這個判決前還是判決後出來"},{"start":55.626,"end":82.977,"text":"你认为这个你们现在已经在谈了吗是不是对还是持续谈那我们也有发现就是美国会把对等关税很多的项目基本上慢慢移到232去所以他当然也有一些他们的因应做法我说美国行政部会把他移到232有些现在在讨论当中但是232因为还要做产业调查时程上会有一点232是不会受影响的吗"},{"start":83.737,"end":106.244,"text":"不会受最高法院审理的影响那贝森特也有说他说他可能会有即便不合法的情况下他有可能会引用其他的有可能是122嘛贸易法的122条嘛"},{"start":106.664,"end":122.879,"text":"那122條他目前就是比較相對上就是對部分的商品徵收15%然後是150天這比目前我們台灣的對等關稅還要有利"},{"start":123.82,"end":142.57,"text":"就是15我們現在是20疊加嘛那他如果這個貿易法的122條的這個150天內徵收最高15%的關稅的話那是比目前的20%加N還要再好那另外他也有可能採取的是關稅法338條"},{"start":144.611,"end":169.166,"text":"那338條他就會最高稅率就會到50%那請問喔我們如果未來面對這個情況但第一個情況是對等關稅會不會在審理之前出來那如果在審理之前出來我們是不是能夠爭取到就是說最有利的所以"},{"start":170.106,"end":175.176,"text":"像你們當初所認為目標的關稅15%是不是就是像貿易法122條這樣子的一個15%的關稅是不是"},{"start":179.259,"end":207.621,"text":"報告委員就是說我們還是至少要比20%要低往下談希望這樣子如果可以到15%的話當然也是我們的期待但是這就是還是中間要談而且不疊加那也希望就是說232的部分我們也可以有比較好的優惠待遇剛剛跟委員報告過因為他們行政部門事實上除了可能會引用其他的法案之外"},{"start":208.041,"end":235.256,"text":"也有可能把很多的项目移到232去所以232我们还是要谈所以为什么我们要求你们担心的应该是所有他们把可能加征关税的部分移到232去对 如果被判违宪的话如果那如果合宪就没有问题所以再怎么样我们还是要跟他们行政部门还是要持续的谈才可以保障我们的可能的权益对"},{"start":236.397,"end":265.597,"text":"所以你也没有说到底会在生理前我们的对等关税就会出来因为美中也谈了嘛对不对对因为这个还是很难去预估啦还是要看美中谈完了那是不是就是说他们也稀土也都暂缓一年了那是不是现在就就是我们台美的部分是不是应该要有一个比较比较明朗然后跟民众也说啊是不是"},{"start":266.986,"end":287.245,"text":"当然我们态度上还是期待如果可以快的话我们是希望尽快因为我们毕竟现在的临时性的对等关税还是20%我们希望如果可以尽早决定的话如果可以往下调的话对我们帮助是比较好的所以你觉得会尽快谈"},{"start":288.542,"end":312.055,"text":"我們期待是希望然後談到15%是不是盡力啦盡力有可能嗎盡力盡力就是按照貿易法的122條對盡力談到15%我們來盡力希望委員給我們支持加油我給你加油川普要不要給你加油我們盡力"},{"start":314.63,"end":337.801,"text":"還有我還要再提到就是美中他們談到揮打的晶片這個問題那看來就是如果我們台灣要以就是AI為發展的這樣子一個半導體的未來的規劃那我們就會勢必要面臨的第一點"},{"start":339.059,"end":359.185,"text":"美國他會不會還是持續的要求我們把我們整個半導體的供應鏈移往美國照美國的看法是這樣他是他國內的需求有一部分希望在美國生產因為他有經濟安全上的一些問題會不會希望加大"},{"start":361.315,"end":387.335,"text":"還沒有看到會不會加大因為它主要還是在滿足它美國需求為主它並沒有額外說要出口到其他地區的部分是希望在美國生產到達沒有這樣的情況因為它已經改變了過去我們是以效率為導向的現在它已經以安全韌性為導向它一直要求我們加大"},{"start":388.255,"end":412.121,"text":"過去在台灣生產對他們來講最有效率可是他們現在因為安全跟韌性的問題一直要求我們加大對美的投資對我們來講的話如果那邊有訂單可以獲益的話當然廠商的佈局我跟你講這是陷阱你一直去但是未來如果沒有一直去啦"},{"start":413.542,"end":431.131,"text":"我就說他要求我們一直去嘛 是不是那未來如果他們又調高美就是調高台灣相關的產品對美的這個關稅因為這個東西掌握在他們手上啊 是不是這個主控權不在我們所以這個也是談判的過程嘛"},{"start":431.851,"end":452.617,"text":"對 我是說如果啦我們一直去的情況下當然不是這一次的談判如果下次或者是未來他們反而就是說提高了台灣蘇美半導體的相關的關稅的時候那我們就完了那時候你可能不是經濟部長啦"},{"start":453.737,"end":469.785,"text":"那台辦總要有一個合理性跟一個依據嘛那你說你為了滿足美國國內的需求有一部分的產能在美國我覺得這個是還算是合理的但是你如果要過多的話而且是沒有假設是沒有效率的生產但是這是不合理啊"},{"start":470.465,"end":487.02,"text":"也會影響到我們的就業人口啊會影響到台灣的就業人口啊台灣的部分倒沒有問題台灣的部分現在時序的半導體一直在增加我們只是現在擔心的就是說土地不足以去支撐那麼多的這些半導體廠或者是"},{"start":489.988,"end":517.239,"text":"相關的資源包括您剛才提到人力的部分是啊因為不管是因為很多我們如果要去美國設廠我們的人力就要就是有一部分勢必要去建廠等等相關的規劃一定是往美國去那相關的我們在台灣如果要發展相關的半導體的時候所以您可以看到台積電的話他是建廠的人過去蓋完廠以後他就回來所以他不會一直留在美國"},{"start":517.919,"end":544.318,"text":"那如果他要求我們加大呢你有辦法嗎有沒有辦法不要讓他要求我們加大啊因為加大到時候美國生產太多台灣要輸美的這些半島有關稅他又未來他如果突然把我們加高關稅咧沒有 他這個就是談判的過程他要我們去投資的話一定這個關稅會有最惠國的待遇我們才會同意啊"},{"start":545.26,"end":573.754,"text":"这是一个谈判过程好还有我觉得我们也必须要考量到大陆市场的AI发展我就说在全球的视角里面美国跟大陆是AI两个一个是高阶一个是低阶的相关的发展那大陆的市场对我们也是相当的有诱因那这样子的情况下我们未来我们的科技业要怎么样分散这些风险"},{"start":574.634,"end":589.014,"text":"但是也是我們台灣政府必須要考量的是 只要不是在這個管制的項目範圍啊那或者是不在實體金單那我們還是跟中國還是有正常的交易啊這沒有問題啊"},{"start":590.812,"end":613.987,"text":"對 我是說我們的 我們還是必須要就是說因為如果未來AI的產業在全球要蓬勃發展 不要泡沫化我相信就是說美國的高階跟就是在大陸的這樣低階的這個AI的相關的發展性都必須要並重那台灣才會在這個位置上面有最大的立即點嗎"},{"start":614.807,"end":638.805,"text":"我們的產業AI的產業發展才會有最大的利基點我認為經濟部必須要就是審慎的去考量這樣子的就是兩者的相關性好不好是 所以我剛才特別提到了如果它不在實體清單也不在管制項目範圍裡面那我們當然是樂觀其成這個本來就正常的貿易在進行當中好 謝謝"},{"start":642.557,"end":648.894,"text":"好 謝謝薛一鋒委員謝謝郭文部長我們現在休息三分鐘 不好意思剛剛也宣布了 不好意思"}]}},{"id":"165070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2478e85ab468e8ef16e3cb72f09a57cc5372a46263f60850464a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:12:10 - 11:16:54","影片長度":"00:04:44","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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部長 是的好 那我們經濟部預告的能管法當中把再生能源熱能納入這個很好這個熱能不只是蒸汽包括生殖能 氫能都可以用熱能的方式來使用是不是也要把它納入能管法部長 是不是這樣 是的好 所以我們現在要等行政院版本我們希望趕快的行政院版本拿出來但是在此之前有個要請教往下一頁看"},{"start":68.902,"end":78.805,"text":"台灣是不是成為全球少數具有自製氫能電巴的國家剛剛你們的邱署長我問了他這一題他在財政委員會我們看一下"},{"start":80.134,"end":102.786,"text":"國產車有個氫能巴士已經上路了而且中油也在高雄男子車的嘉青站那麼其他國家的氫能巴士我們台灣有競爭力我們的成本只要一半預估今年的氫能車的關鍵零組件的自製率可以提高7成5而且我們還引進了第一輛氫燃料電池的重型卡車部長是不是很期待我們台灣能夠充分運用這樣的新興能源"},{"start":103.928,"end":126.062,"text":"是的 好 那麼輕能比較特別那你覺得輕能車除了我們經濟物補助之外相關的貨物稅跟使用牌照稅是不是也要比照電動車可以免稅呢我支持這樣你支持 那目前輕能車能不能比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅好像我們還要跟產業部討論一下負稅署"},{"start":129.455,"end":154.597,"text":"我們要再演繹一下不對你們剛剛的部長啊我剛剛在財政委員會部長跟署長說對 輕能車現在就是比照電動車所以部長好好的去宣傳財政部已經親口說輕能車就是比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅部長應該開心一下吧你不要那麼緊張我們再確定一下你擔心剛剛部長跟署長是被我騙了是吧"},{"start":155.714,"end":169.772,"text":"他們親口講的啊 往下看我們當然歡迎 因為他是未來的對 往下看齁那麼輕能移動跟工業應用呢那既然財政部你都希望他免稅了那你經濟部自己的補助要不要提高啊"},{"start":170.711,"end":189.555,"text":"目前是一千萬嘛對 我們大概差不多好像補助一半嘛對 那你們要不要再提高一半 因為現在的各自氫能車可能它的造價更貴囉報告委員 因為我們現在補助的話大概不希望超過50%對 不要超過50% 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報告做遞交"},{"start":106.764,"end":129.082,"text":"而不是說我們有一個管道然後呢我們有一個整體的報告當然跟他溝通的時候我們會看適合公佈什麼樣的資料所以你們就是呢針對各個國家那可能在整體的報告裡面抽出那對對方來說比較在意的事情然後去做溝通那這個溝通的就利用這個報告那像各國那有幾次的溝通記錄呢"},{"start":130.808,"end":137.597,"text":"我們就展開比如說我們跟大概有一半以上的國家其實他們都有表示支持我們參加那現在有一個關鍵是要成立所謂的成立所謂的陸會工作小組這一步要進去我們才有可能進行實質的討論陸會工作小組什麼時候要成立"},{"start":146.133,"end":169.671,"text":"就是現在就在很多有六個國家申請那到底他們今年啊你直接把六個國家講出來我覺得有很多事情除了台灣之外中國然後包括阿克斯大黎加烏拉圭等等所以這六個國家然後呢我們要做一個入會小組那現在就是確定沒有說誰先申請誰先成立工作小組就看他們這個所謂的部長會議他們最後的這個"},{"start":174.634,"end":191.973,"text":"決定好像像去年就通過了用哥斯大黎加作為成立工作小組所以台灣要怎麼樣在這個工作小組裡面呢能夠變成是說去建立或是在什麼時間點上面要來做這件事因為我們都還沒有被成立陸會工作小組所以我們就去年加拿大做主席國的時候"},{"start":192.273,"end":205.049,"text":"他就通過了一個可以進行入會工作前的諮商我們現在已經跟有一些會員國已經展開實質的諮商哪一些會員國因為這涉及到比較機密那大概有幾個會員國可以說嗎"},{"start":207.333,"end":235.735,"text":"目前就是有一個已經進行蠻實質的討論一個一個但是歷史是很重要有一就有二沒有我覺得你們很可愛如果我不問的話我還以為這個十個就還是要有時候還是跟你們對話我覺得真的還是要詳細一點好那所以我們再梳理一下整個過程就是我們有一份就您上任之後做了一份研究報告那這研究報告呢我們就向這個各個相關的這個會員國裡面然後我們有提出然後跟他們去做溝通"},{"start":236.596,"end":260.865,"text":"那在下一步呢我們就希望能夠成立就是說在加拿大他當時有這個去在制度上面架構的這個入會前的工作小組對不對好那在這個工作小組上面我們的流程是好現在為關鍵了因為他入會有所奧克蘭三原則就是你本身的自由貿易是符合高標準再來你沒有不良紀錄第三個就是共識覺可是共識覺怎麼解釋呢"},{"start":261.425,"end":284.391,"text":"好像變成說好像12個會員國都同意我們才成立工作小組我們認為不是是你認為我們不適合成立你要講理由因為我們的理由已經清楚了嘛對大家都有好處啊所以這個時候我們就排除政治的干擾那我們也在訴求幾個大國他的經濟體特別大的像日本英國這些都是很有能量的那他如果能夠更清楚的表達這個共識決啊不是說誰否決權"},{"start":289.412,"end":301.38,"text":"而是不贊成成立工作小組的國家要說明台灣是哪裡不適合我了解我們都很支持那我下一步要問的就是說那這個工作小組的成立會落在什麼時候"},{"start":302.285,"end":322.602,"text":"我們在今年底因為這個CBDPP在澳大利亞開會的時候會就要新成立陸會工作小組的國家來進行討論所以在今年的年底進行討論那你們的預估這樣子的一個討論是就是成功的機率大嗎或者是說有什麼挑戰我這樣問好了"},{"start":323.983,"end":347.866,"text":"會有什麼樣的挑戰因為去年只通過了哥斯大黎加但是哥斯大黎加的陸會事實上也遇到困難所以顯然今年我想CPTPP的這個年會他是需要有新的國家成為陸會的工作小組成立所以我們現在爭取所以就是我們用工作小組成立的方式就先爭取我這樣看一下對不對先爭取成立工作小組是嗎"},{"start":350.618,"end":365.624,"text":"我們已經申請了我們要申請工作小組成立去談判我們申請成立工作小組這件事情不等於工作小組已經成立這樣還沒成立但是我們也產生諮商了先不要浪費時間開始諮商所以我們現在要申請成立工作小組"},{"start":372.446,"end":400.367,"text":"那工作小組能不能夠順利成立的話就是看今年年底的時候在這個大會上面然後大家的討論那如果能夠順利成立的如果沒能順利成立的話那該怎麼辦我們希望大會有一些新的解釋來放寬對於奧克蘭三原則的解釋特別是共識覺的定義我同意這樣對我們是最好的但是我只是想問一下就是我們總是會有一個就是好的如果好的話那是"},{"start":402.248,"end":427.595,"text":"因為如果說成立的話呢那我們就往這個方向邁進我覺得是跨出一步那我也會覺得很高興可是如果說年底這個工作小組的申請被否決的話那我們還有什麼樣的他沒有否決就是沒有排進去就是沒成功嘛就沒有成立成功嘛那你沒有成立成功那肯定是對方不管是說否決沒有共識或什麼等等但總之如果是這個方向的話那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":429.143,"end":454.682,"text":"我們進行跟12個國家都雙邊其實十字在談他們要什麼我們要什麼就是說我們怎麼樣去讓大家減少反對我們的可是我們因為我知道啦所以這是成功的這個方向嘛我要問的是說如果這些努力那它並沒有被認可在最後那可能因為各種原因啊什麼打壓啊什麼都有可能嘛我們也很清楚知道我們的處境那如果沒有成功的申請"},{"start":456.404,"end":476.44,"text":"這個日會小組的話我們下一步驟我們要怎麼處置我們要怎麼辦我跟妳講我們就是同步展開實質諮商跟各國雙邊之間另外一個就是我們希望大會也有一些有我的文字通過就是說比如說對共識覺的解釋避免不斷的被少數的人可是現在沒有人反對我們"},{"start":477.441,"end":493.743,"text":"現在只是說有一半以上的國家都是主要的大國都支持可是怎麼樣我們也跟他們溝通比如說像日本英國這個是可以帶動的我們就特別重視通常現在都不會說反對啦那到成不成立這個都是12月的時候大家在牌桌上才會攤開嘛"},{"start":494.844,"end":515.375,"text":"那當然我希望我們是一切順利那可是我還是要講就是說我們今年那年底如果說申請加入那沒能成功的話那到再隔年我們有沒有更具體的就更進一步的具體方案還是說我們就維持先前我們的這個諮商啊然後我們的研究報告的向各國的這個說帖"},{"start":516.576,"end":535.537,"text":"就是再重複一遍這個動作最後就您懂我意思嗎就如果年底的狀況對我們來說不是這麼符合我們的預期那我們是要再重複一次這個過程還是說我們有新的政策新的方向那可以再去突破那讓我們有可能加入CPTPP"},{"start":536.537,"end":554.236,"text":"對 就是委員講的我們就再接再厲因為我們實質上各國跟我們的雙邊的利益我們加入之後除了對它有利以外其他的可能會有一些互相之間要談的事情比如說有些國家我們可能有葫蘆跟棒棍"},{"start":555.137,"end":571.416,"text":"有些國家他大國他說你去跟其他國家都講好之後我也會支持可是我們要拜託他你可以發揮領導力出來帶頭這當然都是這個一個溝通的過程那我們希望能夠順利不過呢還是希望就是外交部這邊在要做好"},{"start":572.017,"end":590.811,"text":"不是最好的打算而已那最壞的打算之後的下一步我覺得也要做一個規劃因為呢我們台灣就是在這個加入CPTPP如果真的這麼容易的話那這幾年齁這個三年早就已經有一個初步的成果那沒有他一定是遇到了一些實質上的問題怎麼樣去解決這個問題讓台灣有加入CPTPP的可能"},{"start":596.075,"end":617.981,"text":"那我們不希望三年之後又下一個三年因為如果真的沒有辦法的話也希望政府能夠我們誠實以對我們碰到什麼問題可能是沒有辦法加入成功的那票每一次呢都給了民眾很多的期望希望但最後呢一年又一年一年又一年的過去了我們還是沒有申請成功所以希望我們在年底的時候可以聽到您的好結果好嗎好我們來努力好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d25191e456ee15d326575289a78f60fae5462d9096eb7c9b67617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:46:55 - 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這一個呢這個去年的時候其實我就問過了但我覺得這個有必要再追因為這件事情跟我們今天的主題有關係因為這一個我們先不論因為川習慧他本身是一個結果他不是一個原因簡單來講我們這一個不管是美中的關係還是說這一個貿易戰這個進程其實不會因為這一個會有所太大的改變現在美國在意的事情大概都是那幾個"},{"start":44.802,"end":68.055,"text":"有一個非常重要的就還是跟產地有關的又或者說呢這個事情我們在總諮詢的時候也有問過在這一個經濟委員會也有問過那另外一件事情呢其實就是我們跟中國企業的關係所以淘寶這件事情就是因為我看到他們這一個這個總統院院長他之前有說呢希望要去研究這個限期落地的事情"},{"start":68.715,"end":88.96,"text":"那他就發了一個聲明說啊2018年的時候啊這個台灣分公司已經依許法規合法落地這前幾天的事情而已那這個跟我們之前理解就不一樣嘛對不對就是說第一個就是說中國淘寶其實不能算是在台灣真的有落地他真的有一個這一個跟我們投手會有關的是香港的那一家"},{"start":89.66,"end":109.939,"text":"那他做的只是一個分送的業務所以我之前有函文給經濟部在問這個問題的時候就經濟部有在調查調查的是什麼呢就是說香港這一個分公司那他在台灣做的這個業務有沒有符合他所設立的這一個目的嘛對不對如果他說只有分送那他是不是可以在捷運放廣告啊什麼等等之類的這是一條線那"},{"start":111.38,"end":139.528,"text":"如果只是按照法規來講的話我們可以針對這家公司到底有做沒做這件事情呢來做討論跟裁罰但其實呢他跟中國淘寶我認為他應該是分開的事情因為中國淘寶他本身就是一家電商嘛那這家電商呢他能不能下廣告跟他今天寄東西到台灣應不應該要收到管制這其實是兩件事情那我們呢其實當然已經解決了或者說已經討論了香港的這件事情但中國這件事情實質上是沒有解決"},{"start":140.368,"end":152.384,"text":"我知道其實這一件事情因為它牽涉到兩岸條例我們電商很多全世界各式各樣的電商都很多但是會受到兩岸條例規範的電商是只有中國電商對 亞馬遜不會受到這個兩岸條例的規範這個31條的適用範圍沒有到它"},{"start":156.229,"end":173.434,"text":"我知道因為陸委會在這個他也是在一起討論這件事情的範圍之內所以可不可以說明一下就是現在針對中國電商我們無論香港香港那個他有沒有分送要不要做廣告那是另外一件事就是針對中國電商這件事情目前我們的做法跟過一番是什麼"},{"start":175.131,"end":197.13,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題對於中國淘寶它確實沒有在台灣落地那它是跨境電商的模式所以現在行政院已經責成幾個部會包括經濟部 數位部 衛福部 還有財政部我們要分別就這個邊境的管制還有相關業務的推動已經成立專責的小組"},{"start":198.411,"end":216.364,"text":"所以可以看得出來其實在邊境管制是第一道防線財政部已經決定說未來如果透過電商的這些進口的話應該也要有進口報單的申報所以從邊境這邊來做第一關的"},{"start":216.884,"end":234.812,"text":"第一關的這個管制那目前呢就像我剛剛所報告的中國淘寶沒有來申請因為呢根據我們的這個正面表列入資來台的正面表列如果是跨境的電商他會涉及到不同的這個"},{"start":236.433,"end":251.965,"text":"這個業別那其中呢是不允許我們是不允許廣告業到台灣來做相關的服務以上好所以呢因為在這件事情上面如果今天行政院已經有責成一個小組要來討論這件事情的話第一個我想問一下如何就是34條的這個適用的空間"},{"start":253.746,"end":274.967,"text":"就是說我剛剛講31是打詐我剛剛講打詐是31然後兩岸條例是34就是34的這個第一項配合40條嘛它有一個這一個相關的規定就是說如果你沒有在許可的狀況之下你應該如何如何這個34條到底有沒有適用的空間打詐專法31條那是另外一件事情它所有的不利益可能會更大"},{"start":275.948,"end":293.858,"text":"基本上我們現在這個按照兩岸人民關係條例裡面是沒有開放入資來台投資電商特別針對電商這塊來講是沒有空間的但現在比較複雜的情況是在於說譬如說我們看到有的時候是變成他是港資或者說他裡面只有部分是中資他透過第三地然後用合夥的方式到台灣來投資"},{"start":295.018,"end":307.492,"text":"所以這個部分可能還需要再有更多的情況來做滾動式的調整但是我要跟委員報告就是說針對電商這一塊來講我們不管是中資或者是其他的我們總共列了8項"},{"start":309.935,"end":332.297,"text":"這八項裡面以淘寶的這個案例來講的話我們只有核准他進行電子資訊的供應還有廣告傳單的分送這兩項而已所以香港分公司申請的那一項所以他那個時候在媒體上面有講說他已經落地了接受監管所以他可以來從事電商的業務這個其實是錯誤的因為我們只有核准他這兩項那他從事了這兩項以外的其他項目來說的話他就是違法"},{"start":333.077,"end":352.527,"text":"你這樣提到我在追問一件事情我剛剛想到的就是說因為他們好像也有開記者會或什麼之類的他們開記者會的時候他的名義到底是什麼比如說他是用中國淘寶還是他是用香港的然後他有沒有符合他本來如果說香港因為香港的才有申請這個相關的業務他有沒有包含可以做這件事情我覺得這可能也要注意一下"},{"start":352.941,"end":369.464,"text":"是對跟委員報告就是說他來投資的是用香港淘寶的這個身份但是他事實上他在從事的那個項目裡面就是剛剛跟委員報告的他已經超過了我們核准他的這兩項所以我們針對其他的部分還包含像是拼多多蝦皮這個問題是更加的複雜"},{"start":370.305,"end":397.852,"text":"那淘寶的這個部分來講的話事實上我們是已經先針對了他違法的這個部分來說也跟經濟部還有跟相關的這個部會來演繹那其他的這個部分來說的話因為每個個案情況都不一樣但是我們可能會針對不同的個案來看我們現在的法律是不是夠用OK好 這個很感謝因為我覺得這是一個很大的問題就是說剛好最近朱溫的事情大家對於邊境管事也越來越重視那我覺得應該在這個機會我們一次性的讓國人很清楚就是說我們有哪些法律的工具我們不一定需要立法院這邊修法"},{"start":397.992,"end":420.371,"text":"就是行政端用既有的法律工具看能不能先做好管制那不然的話這其實你說民生的危機就算了以後可能會有國家安全的危機也有可能會影響到我們的貿易的談判這個影響非常的巨大我覺得這非常重要的事情是委員提醒非常重要因為我們確實有看到我們委託學者做一些研究他有提醒我們譬如說洗產地的風險這個現在美國非常高度的關注"},{"start":420.891,"end":437.239,"text":"甚至也有國安的風險怎麼說呢因為我們會發現有一些化學的這種燃料啦或者工具或者是有可能形成國安危機的這樣子的這種危險的這種物品他可以用拼裝的這個方式所以他可以個別個別的透過這個法律的漏洞進到台灣來之後最後拼裝起來變成生化武器"},{"start":437.919,"end":459.044,"text":"雖然沒有發生但是我們覺得必須要嚴防啦更甚至於已經有發生的情況譬如說校園裡面的電子煙我已經收到非常多家長的反應他們都反應說這些電子煙就是透過這種境外的電商那沒有明確的是講哪一家但是確實我們發現境外電商不是只有這次豬瘟有疑慮有太多太多的對於社會對於我們年輕朋友的危害是產生這個疑慮我們會加以來檢討"},{"start":461.345,"end":488.997,"text":"好 那我覺得這個之後我再繼續來追蹤接下來我想問的是外交部但我看時間不一定夠用就是說 部長就是說我簡單問一下因為前面其實蠻多人問過的就是說這一個APEC就是明年的這一個官員附中的這個法律風險因為我們現在不是說官員附中有風險而已我們連一般人民去中國都會失蹤這個到香港都會被抓走所以呢 就是就這一點而言目前的準備狀況如何"},{"start":490.683,"end":516.545,"text":"我們因為有預期到中國可能會有這種動作所以在去年他申請明年要辦APEC大年會的時候我們就已經有透過APEC的這個平台他書面的承諾第一個要確保我們的人身安全另外當然是APEC精神包括今年的這個所謂雙部長的會議的共同聲明也再次提到必須要是這個保障平等參與的權利"},{"start":518.526,"end":527.009,"text":"那這個就是說除了國格不能被貶低之外這當然了那我想問一下就是說這個安全相關的這個問題它的主管機關是要外交部負責還是要請國安單位負責我們現在國安會是有開始在針對這個跨部會有在開始做好這個"},{"start":539.632,"end":558.203,"text":"未來的這個因應因為這個我覺得因為主管是誰可能蠻重要的因為假設因為當然都是在我們這邊國防外交委員會但是我們想說呢因為這個也跟預算有關嘛就是說我們之後針對這樣的執行針對這個官員的這個保護這未來應該是重要的事情所以它到底是在比如說它在哪裡被編列"},{"start":558.863,"end":571.797,"text":"它的量能是擺在哪裡然後我們要怎麼去做監督這件事情可能要先釐清但是我不一定要在公開的場合講非常的清楚說到底是哪一個單位來主責但是是不是能夠在這一兩個禮拜我們來稍微整理一下相關這個官員附中風險的問題"},{"start":574.179,"end":582.844,"text":"是當然過去APEC我們大家都跨部會那當然外交部有國主司嘛因為現在當然加上陸委會也是很重要因為在中國大陸所以這整個應該說我們已經啟動了針對因為12月就開始明年度的活動"},{"start":591.008,"end":609.36,"text":"所以我們就會面對到事實上在這一次在韓國我們就開始在跟中國的APEC資深官員在交涉所以這個是不能夠讓今年形成明年為什麼我們那麼堅持不能用地方政府的官員去接我們的領袖代表"},{"start":610,"end":638.736,"text":"那如果明年去那邊他還是比較找一個地方層級的來接機那另外就是安全面我們要求就是對於會員國的保障而這個不只我們我想連我們友好國家他們也都表達這個關切才讓中國來舉辦他們是有承諾的那如果他們違背這個承諾我想APEC是共識決我們一定會強力的這個做反制因為他大會要有共同的聲明其實去年啦其實"},{"start":640.036,"end":659.231,"text":"一些友好國家說我們暫時打了一場很很漂亮的勝仗不但把這個APEC過去中國企圖矮化成兩岸的這個來往回到APEC的平台而且今年也繼續我們希望明年也能夠確保我們參與的利益跟出席者的安全好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17005","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db16bff821a9cb407d4d6e69b556667bbc83051bafb051454b3565df207433135d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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請組密報告好 我們現在開會 請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期經紀委員會第8次全體委員會議事錄"},{"start":1783.966,"end":1809.882,"text":"時間114年10月9日星期三九十二分至十二十三十分114年10月30日星期四九十一分至十十二分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員邱以營等14人 列席委員洪孟凱等21人 列席人員114年10月9日星期三經濟部部長龔明新等114年10月30日星期四經濟部常務次長賴建信等主席陳昭景委員廷飛114年10月9日星期三 報告事項"},{"start":1810.543,"end":1816.638,"text":"宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項依審查依行政行情審議"},{"start":1817.681,"end":1839.732,"text":"電業法第71條之一調研修正草案 討論事項合併詢答委員羅美玲說明提案要旨 經濟部部長龔明欣報告後委員邱益英等17人提出質詢 經由經濟部部長龔明欣等即席答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員黃潔 張家俊 林楚英 陳超銘及蔡宇所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報"},{"start":1840.792,"end":1865.401,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分型 相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會 委員你有要求期限者從其鎖定2 委員王美惠等20人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳立華等16人 委員賴銳榮等16人 委員羅美玲等19人委員賴瑞元等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳亭輝等17人 委員邱振軍等21人及委員吳佩義等16人 分別擬據電業法第71條之1條修正草案等10案2 審查"},{"start":1867.762,"end":1891.682,"text":"行政院韓經審議 委員王美惠等20人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人 委員賴月農等16人 委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧媛等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人 委員邱振軍等24人及委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正草案等11案3 審查行政院韓經審議 委員王美惠等19人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人"},{"start":1893.724,"end":1915.151,"text":"委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧媛等21人 委員黃潔等22人委員陳廷飛等17人 委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據自來水法第97條之一條文修正查案等9案二 委員賴瑞榮等16人擬據自來水法第三條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正查案決議審查結束114年10月30日繼續審查114年10月30日星期四討論事項 一繼續審查行政案件審議"},{"start":1924.213,"end":1952.572,"text":"電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案及本院委員王美惠等20人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人委員賴銳榮等16人 委員羅美玲等19人委員賴慧妍等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳婷菲等17人委員邱振軍等21人 委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案等11案決議一 第71條之一 條文照行政院提案通過二 通過附帶決議項二 繼續審查行政院行政院審議天然氣法"},{"start":1953.292,"end":1975.355,"text":"天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案及本院委員王美惠等20人委員李坤城等18人委員吳立華等16人委員賴瑞隆等16人委員羅美玲等19人委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃潔等22人委員陳廷飛等17人委員邱振軍等24人委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案等10案"},{"start":1976.021,"end":2003.738,"text":"等十一案 決議第55條之一 條文照行政提案通過 三 繼續審查行政行政審議 自來水法第97條之一 條文修正草案 及本院委員王美惠等十九人 委員李昆城等十八人 委員吳立華等十六人 委員羅美玲等十九人 委員賴慧妍等二十一人 委員黃婕等二十二人 委員陳廷輝等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十六人 分別擬據自來水法第97條之一 條文修正草案 及委員賴瑞榮等十六人擬據自來水法第三條 第16條之一 及第97"},{"start":2005.039,"end":2024.082,"text":"97條之一條文修正討論等10案決議一 第三條條文不予通過 維持現行條文二 增訂第16條之一條文不予增訂三 第97條之一條文造行政案提案通過四 討論事項所列第一至第三案均審查完畢 分別並按理據審查報告"},{"start":2024.782,"end":2046.327,"text":"提報院會討論均不需交由黨團協商並推請陳昭紀委員停飛於院會討論時做補充說明主席宣告審查通過之條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理、散會宣讀完畢好 那請問各位委員針對於剛剛議事處所宣讀的議事錄請問有沒有有沒有問題"},{"start":2051.274,"end":2054.562,"text":"好 那麼我們意思錄確認那我們現在進行討論討論事項請一併宣讀"},{"start":2062.03,"end":2082.118,"text":"1審查本院委員楊瓊英等21人擬據公司法第235條之一條文修正草案2本院委員徐以貞等17人委員楊瓊英等17人委員謝一鳳等16人委員林黛嬅等16人委員張家俊等18人及委員何新淳等16人分別擬據公司法第387條條文修正草案等6案"},{"start":2084.079,"end":2107.294,"text":"3.委員吳秉瑞等21人拟據公司法第222條條文修正查案4.本院委員鄭振銓等16人拟據公司法第160條條文修正查案委員黃建斌等17人拟據公司法第235條之1條文修正查案委員郭國倫等16人拟據公司法第165條條文修正查案"},{"start":2108.717,"end":2135.574,"text":"委員 紐許庭等17人 拟據公司法第387條之一及第449條條文修正草案2 審查本院委員 紐許庭等16人 拟據商業登記法第9條之一及第37條條文修正草案3 審查本院委員賴若榮等17人委員蔡其章等19人及委員鍾嘉斌等20人分別拟據能源管理法部分條文修正草案等3案"},{"start":2137.532,"end":2151.18,"text":"2.本院委員楊瓊瑩等21人拟據《能源管理法》第7條條文修正草案3.本院委員邱瑩穎等11人拟據《能源管理法》增訂第19條12及第27條11條文修正草案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2158.612,"end":2183.38,"text":"好 那麼我們首先要介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員在場的委員有我們徐宇貞委員 邱益穎委員鄭振淺委員 謝謝現場有我們的經濟部長龔部長龔明星龔部長以及商業署蘇文林署署長我們能源署李君理署長"},{"start":2184.5,"end":2207.071,"text":"接下来我们台联公司王耀廷王总经理接下来中油公司方董事长方正仁方董事长以及我们司法院民政厅毛法官毛彦成法官谢谢我们的金管会政企局的主任秘书黄总好主任秘书以及劳动部"},{"start":2209.212,"end":2222.58,"text":"勞動條件以及就業平等司副市長王金榮副市長還有我們行政院主計處綜合統計處的檢熱視察林雅文林視察以及財政部負稅署專門委員林寶全謝謝"},{"start":2226.182,"end":2246.331,"text":"內政部消防署預防調查組專門委員郭懷莊郭專門委員交通部公共運輸及監理師檢任記證王基洲王記證以及環境部大氣環境師專門委員謝仁碩謝謝以及法務部參事廖江憲謝謝"},{"start":2250.256,"end":2274.105,"text":"好 接下來我們本日的議程所列的討論事項有三案分別是公司法部分條文修正草案商業登記法第九條之一及第37條修正草案及能源管理法部分條文修正草案那本日我們僅進行詢答好 我們現在請提案委員來做說明"},{"start":2276.297,"end":2282.07,"text":"哪一位 來 曾政城委員那我們請徐宇甄委員請做準備 謝謝"},{"start":2288.944,"end":2317.304,"text":"主席各位同仁今天我本席提出公司法第160條修正草案是要解決食物上一顆常年埋在台灣家族企業傳承路上的餵爆彈股份共有時股東權利如何行使的問題第一現行法規的制度陷阱第160條已成為僵局條款在現行制度下股份為數人共有時理論上必須全體共有人一致同意"},{"start":2317.944,"end":2342.95,"text":"才能出席股東會行使表決權這就產生了一個巨大的制度陷阱法律只規定了應推定一人卻沒有規定當共有人無法推定一人時該怎麼辦只要其中一個共有人不同意公司股東會就無法召開董事改選決算報告通過無法進行決議只保護了既得利益者 卻限"},{"start":2343.69,"end":2359.585,"text":"企業於違法跟停擺的狀態其他多數共有人的股權被漠視少數霸凌多數第二法體系失衡民法土地法已經先行公司法嚴重落後台灣的法律體系對於"},{"start":2360.586,"end":2382.202,"text":"共有物管理的原則早已從全體同意走向多數決本法參酌土地法第34條之一以及民法第820條的多數決原則改採共有人人數過半且應有部分過半即可推定一人代理行使股東權利這樣既能尊重多數意見也可避免"},{"start":2382.662,"end":2410.611,"text":"依然否決的一個惡性僵局同時也保留彈性允許共友人書面通知公司保留部分權利可扣除其產生共有關係的背後比例以確保個別權益不受侵害為避免多數決產生權利濫用疑慮若有共友人權益受到實質損害仍得向法院申請救濟由法院進行個案審酌保障權益"},{"start":2411.471,"end":2439.688,"text":"令無法提定代理人時得依多數決直接召集股東會並行使表決權確保公司治理不因內部爭議而中斷本修法是在公司治理效率與共有人權益之間找到最佳的一個平衡點懇請各位委員同仁支持讓台灣的企業能有一步真正符合現實需求與時俱進的公司法以上 謝謝"},{"start":2441.124,"end":2446.266,"text":"好 我們謝謝接下來我們請徐政委員請做提案說明"},{"start":2453.466,"end":2480.396,"text":"主席 各位同仁大家早本期今天所提出的是公司法第387條的修正草案目的很單純就是希望讓法理法律回到常理讓實務能被看見現行台灣規定公司登記的代理人僅限會計師律師但記帳是法第13條早已明文記帳是得受委任辦理營業變更註銷停付業及其他登記事項"},{"start":2481.216,"end":2508.997,"text":"兩法不一致讓想創業的民眾充滿繞路跟徒增成本的荒謬台灣九成以上的中小企業創業初期其實最倚重的專業夥伴大部分都是記帳師他們熟悉設立變更稅務跟帳務的流程是協助企業從零到一的第一線是因為公司法的限制明明全案都是由記帳室承辦但是呢到最後送件仍要見名會計師或律師"},{"start":2509.717,"end":2514.459,"text":"增加費用拉長時程也讓責任鏈不清楚制度與現實長期的脫節不僅壓縮計帳室依法執業的空間亦浪費社會資源讓創業者更是不必要的負擔白岸修正在第三項甄列計帳室明定前兩項是申請的"},{"start":2528.525,"end":2555.647,"text":"代理人以會計師 律師 記章師為線這不是擴權 而是法制的統一不是降低門檻 而是尊重專業的分工記章師早就具有國家考試跟專業的監督依法負責 可受集合承辦登記事務的能力與責任早有制度保障讓能者依法為之 可提升效率 降低成本 明確責任亦能夠強化主管機關的追蹤與管理"},{"start":2556.047,"end":2574.117,"text":"修法後 會計師與律師的專業價值不會被取代在查核 見證 訴訟等領域仍有其不可替代的角色我們只是讓長年在座的人能夠名正言順把流程的斷點補上把責任的揮曲釐清這對創業者來說是利多對行政體系來說是減壓對產業環境來說是加速器法律本來就應當隨著社會脈動而進步"},{"start":2583.323,"end":2596.402,"text":"當現實走到面前法條就不該成為絆腳石而這次的修正即使法制統一的必要也是一種務實的選擇它不會改變登記制度的監督強度反而會讓制度更加透明化跟合理化"},{"start":2597.358,"end":2617.925,"text":"所以為了讓社會運作更為順暢即將是長年默默支持台灣的中小企業他們是最了解企業細節經營的一群人今天我們只希望透過這項修正讓法律能夠回歸常理讓專業能夠各司其職也能讓創業者少一些不必要的障礙 謝謝"},{"start":2620.168,"end":2630.853,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來呢 謝謝我們的提案委員那接下來我們請經濟部長 公民新部長就委員提案合併來做報告 請"},{"start":2640.709,"end":2656.618,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那今天非常很感謝的貴人會邀集的相關的單位共同討論公司法3月登記法以及能源管理法修正草案的相關的提案那本人非常榮幸有這個機會"},{"start":2657.745,"end":2673.082,"text":"可以跟各位委員會提出報告進行各位委員不吝指教首先是在公司法的部分公司法是規範全國公司治理的法律與企業經營運作還有股東的權利息息相關"},{"start":2674.042,"end":2702.882,"text":"那各法條的修正呢我們認為應該要審慎的處理那有關於委員所提的公司法修正查案呢本部的評估意見呢依序說明如下那第一個有關於是160條素人共有的股份的時候那共有人如何推定一人行使股東權利那最高法院的判決呢向來認定需要回歸民法以全體共有人同意來推派"},{"start":2703.763,"end":2710.491,"text":"那委員所提的是 希望改成多數決的方式來進行那本部也曾"},{"start":2711.739,"end":2736.126,"text":"徵詢了各單位的意見那司法院仍然認為說應該還是要用民法共有的規定來辦理那我想這個也是我們尊重這個這個司法院的看法那第二是有關於165條股東常會及臨時會過戶的避鎖期的期間呢那主要這個避鎖期主要的目的是為了確保可以出席股東會的股東"},{"start":2736.986,"end":2759.96,"text":"那如果没有去区分公开发行公司还有非公发公司的闭锁期的时间的缩短的话那我们也跟这些股物单位的实务的意见洽询以后那尤其是针对公发公司的股物作业事实上它非常的繁复可能会时间缩短的话可能会造成实质上执行上的一些困难"},{"start":2761.943,"end":2786.752,"text":"第三是有关于222条的部分监察人应该忠实的执行职务不得兼任公司的董事经理人还有其他的这个职员那确保他的独立性那监察人如果违法来兼任的话基本上他已经违反这个强制的规定这个法律效果当然是致死是无效的所以并不需要"},{"start":2788.133,"end":2807.254,"text":"新增订这个修正的期间或者是修正期间不改的话要罚还那第四项是有关于235条之一的部分上市常规呢现在已经按照这个证券交易法的规定第14条规定在章程里面也要明定了"},{"start":2808.095,"end":2831.05,"text":"基层员工调整薪资或分派酬劳的相关规定那至于规范这个非公发公司的公司法那委员的提案是希望公司章程也要明定这个员工酬劳加薪的比例不得低于同业的平均也好或者是消费者物价指数年增率拟定的这个条幅等等的一些情况那本部呢"},{"start":2831.85,"end":2847.18,"text":"也针对这个议题邀请了这个产业团体也好专家学者还有各部会来研商那认为实务上操作上可能是有一些困难比如说同业加薪的平均因为它变成一个浮动动态的很难去定义"},{"start":2848.101,"end":2876.58,"text":"那我们也希望就是考量到公司规模这个大小的不一产业需求也不一样是不是给予公司有一些弹性那至于上市上柜这些比较大型的公司在这个政交法里面已经有所规范了那第五点是有关于第387条那依现在的规定公司的登记的申请可由负责人轻松或者是律师会计师来代理登记那"},{"start":2878.615,"end":2906.146,"text":"记账是跟这个报税的代理人是可以协助公司来代送件那清查包括日本美国跟新加坡他们国家来讲的话征集代理人的资格大部分都还是限制于专业职业的人员那他们的这些专业或考试科目都有包含这个公司法或者是商法也有应对的这些考训的相关科目跟门槛"},{"start":2907.526,"end":2927.891,"text":"那委员提案说可以增订这个记账室为登记代理人那我们认为就是说是不是先来评估扩大这些记账室它可能的考试范围然后纳入将来的这个科目的应考范围里面"},{"start":2928.422,"end":2951.953,"text":"然後比較專業性比較提升以後提升了相關的學士跟專業能力以後來實施可能是比較妥當的那第六項是有關於387條11還有第449條那委員希望要求就是說在公司登記前要參加這個勞動權益的講習那我們這個認為是利益良善"},{"start":2953.294,"end":2981.309,"text":"但是不过呢为了友善整个经商的这个环境也希望这个公司登记可以便捷化那一站式的可以线上申请的政策那是不是就是说对于我们这边不要把这个参加劳动讲习当作是一个钱的一个条件那我们再来就是说有一个告知的义务让这些登记人他们可以参加这个讲习作业"},{"start":2982.898,"end":2999.389,"text":"那第二大项是有关于这个商业登记的部分那这个就是有关于第九条之一还有二三十七条一样的这个也是跟刚刚第六项讲的就是说登记前的劳动权益奖系那我们的意见也是一样"},{"start":3000.47,"end":3018.048,"text":"那第三大项是有关于能源管理法的部分那能源管理法是规范我国能源需求面的这个节约能源还有能源效率的管理的主要法律那本市的委员提案的拟据的这个能源管理法的修正草案总共大概有五案"},{"start":3018.889,"end":3031.624,"text":"那考量到這個牽涉到的這個範圍比較大針對各位委員提案的情形呢那我們也按照這個調適提出的書面報告那下面我就綜合簡要的來說明"},{"start":3033.154,"end":3061.587,"text":"那本次五项的这个提案的版本大概有三项是针对特定的议题提出来的包括就是早晚杨秋莹委员提到的能源管理事业达到一定规模以上的应该要设置能源储存能刮糊能的这个设备那秋莹委员提案是不得故意散播影响国家能源供应国家能源基础设施的不实谣言或者是假讯息那杨秋莹委员提案"},{"start":3062.327,"end":3088.267,"text":"就是火力发电还有能源用户的设置气垫工程者应该申报机组还有排放的资料等等此外另外还有蔡经商委员还有钟嘉斌委员提案增设能源管理事业应该要公开能源的销售统计还有涉及到整体能源的相关的规定鉴于本部研理的版本已经完成预告现在也在收集一些"},{"start":3088.787,"end":3112.123,"text":"针对各外界的这个建议进行检视并且整体考量跟电影法还有再生年龄发展条例的法案相关法例可以有一致性那是不是我们建议等到行政部门的修正法案的版本送大院以后再并案审查讨论以上报告谢谢"},{"start":3116.221,"end":3132.698,"text":"好 謝謝部長就我們今天委員提案有三個法來做說明好 那麼有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報本日議程所列的討論事項合併詢答"},{"start":3135.32,"end":3157.908,"text":"分开处理那委员咨询前我们依照惯例主席才做以下的宣告每位委员发言的时间本委员会本委员六分钟必要时延长一分钟非本委员会四分钟那上午十点半这个截止发言登记那首先我们请登记第一位的张家俊委员请做发言"},{"start":3169.212,"end":3173.356,"text":"謝謝主席我想請這個拱部長我們請拱部長部長早安那首先呢想請問部長距離立法院三讀通過核管法已經過了多久了您記得嗎"},{"start":3193.338,"end":3211.248,"text":"從今年5月15開始已經過了快要半年了那請問現在核電廠研議經濟部這邊有掌握到任何的進度嗎原則上就是我們說有兩個必須跟三個原則那個你不要重複了那個已經在"},{"start":3213.942,"end":3242.443,"text":"核管法的這個辦法裡面都已經有規定了我現在是問你進度對對對那所以就是說台電公司他按照這個辦法他先提的這個現狀的評估報告現狀的評估報告會送到經濟部來什麼時候已經送來了已經送來了所以可以告訴我們一下現在的評估報告的內容嗎評估報告他大致上就是說看看這一個現在的這個機組大致上的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":3243.652,"end":3262.808,"text":"那是怎麼樣沒有 我們現在還在審查當中所以是已經有評估報告了已經有評估報告 但是我們還在但是你沒有辦法告訴我們評估報告的內容對 因為我們還在針對評估報告內容裡面來確認是不是這樣子所以你是不相信他的評估報告"},{"start":3263.308,"end":3279.65,"text":"我們當然還要check啊那還有行政的流程啊所以你現在在check那多久才可以確認說他的評估報告是詳實的因為我知道評估報告已經要送到經濟部來但是還沒簽到我這邊來所以你也還沒看到對 還在行政裡面還沒有看到但上週呢 這個"},{"start":3281.792,"end":3293.32,"text":"總經理啊就是王總經理在本委員會有回應有關於核能研議的時候他就有提到說目標是在2029年可以重啟核三那部長您支持嗎還是我們這個評估報告完以後如果確認以後他們就會啟動所以你意思是說這個上個禮拜的發言是沒有經過確認的是嗎"},{"start":3307.429,"end":3317.36,"text":"上個禮拜的王總經理的發言說2029是目標可以重啟核三然後有信心可以在2029年甚至進度超前"},{"start":3318.437,"end":3347.638,"text":"跟委员报告您后面那几句我没有说这个是我说的这个是我说的我希望你们把这个当目标一定要进度超前当时赖委员在问整个的时程我是说这个都充满了高度的不确定性那他硬要我给一个日期就是说这些不确定性都当作是可以确定的可以告诉我们委员会说大概是哪些是重启核三或重启核能的不确定性吗"},{"start":3348.038,"end":3368.583,"text":"那不確定性當然就是我們在做過那個再運轉計畫就是接下來的依法規做再運轉計畫及自主安全檢查的部分那檢查的結果到底有多少設備所以你們不是已經檢查完了嗎不是不是不是所以這個你剛才部長講的說你們已經有重新盤點那是現況現況而已現況現況現況"},{"start":3372.064,"end":3387.802,"text":"現況完還要做真正的核子反應爐裡面的每一個組件還有它的狀況它是不是老化是不是已經還能夠再撐20年我們現在就是希望說這一些進度要加快要加快要能夠"},{"start":3389.063,"end":3414.081,"text":"盡快的來重啟核能 為什麼呢那前幾天呢應該是說我們的台電董事長曾文森在9月的時候他也說過10月初就會有這個現況盤點然後會對外說明到目前為止也還沒有現況說明你看連簽到部長桌上都還沒有這進度是不是有點慢啊"},{"start":3414.961,"end":3443.849,"text":"跟委員報告所有的工作都是同時在進行絕對不會說因為一個牽絆然後就停下來那為什麼還沒有辦法對他說明10月初現在已經11月了11月初了現在其實本席給你一個機會可不可以告訴我們說這三座核電廠目前盤點的結果情形如何有哪幾座廠有哪幾座反應爐評估後是可以到下一個階段的"},{"start":3444.583,"end":3453.838,"text":"目前我們台電只是把三座核電廠目前的現況作為初步的是不是核三最有可能研議呢"},{"start":3456.18,"end":3465.243,"text":"還是核二也有機會呢這個部分要經過經濟部再看一下就是你現在不是已經盤點過了嗎那是台電的觀點而已那台電的觀點我現在就問你啊你是台電總經理啊台電的觀點是什麼你覺得是核三比較有機會還是核二比較有機會"},{"start":3474.765,"end":3479.83,"text":"我想這句話我先不要回答 避免說一些爭議啦 我想還是等你在怕什麼 這是一個國家的方向為什麼本席會這麼關心核電研議的進度因為不只是用電穩定 更是為了台灣未來接軌國際產業著想根據國際能源署預估"},{"start":3496.187,"end":3518.473,"text":"未來五年全球的資料中心用電量會增加一倍以上甚至說如果專為AI算力設計的資料中心用電量會多出整整四倍那如果我們台灣沒有重啟核電我們哪裡來的電力資源那我們怎麼樣跟上國際的角度呢"},{"start":3519.293,"end":3528.592,"text":"這一點這是部長要擔心的啊所以我現在才問說既然你都可以喊出2029了那你有沒有信心可以再超前呢"},{"start":3529.526,"end":3554.515,"text":"台電在對於用電的需求方面絕對都是超前在規劃跟部署所以你的超前規劃跟部署是什麼請問包括所有用電的需求量的評估以及這麼多的用電需求量在成長之後我們的電廠是不是要再增加新建那你目前的評估是什麼部長你知道他的評估嗎"},{"start":3556.553,"end":3573.144,"text":"你知道 你幫他回答他的計畫是什麼每年能源組員會滾動式檢討需求面跟供給面所以我們要確保在2032年之前至少所有的這個電力需求那你們的目標是怎樣在繼續不斷地燒煤炭 燒天然氣嗎"},{"start":3575.08,"end":3586.632,"text":"因為就像委員講的即便核能重啟都順利的情況下那也是三年四年以後所以我們這段時間我們要確保是三年還是四年就差一段時間我們確保所以本席在這裡是希望說至少部長"},{"start":3593.72,"end":3605.843,"text":"跟總經理你們要有一個目標嘛你們要有一個明確的目標然後每一階段的這些時程我們把它訂定出來我們大家共同來期待不是說你都不要說我們這麼沒機會給你感動這樣就不對啊這是我們共同的目標不是好像說不是好像說我們要給你們找麻煩一樣是說"},{"start":3615.865,"end":3639.888,"text":"你把目標定定起來你有什麼困難是大家要一起來幫你們克服而不是說我現在沒有辦法告訴你我的目標否則會惹麻煩你覺得這種態度是正確的嗎我們在每一個就會有check point如果過的話那你的check point你可以告訴我們現在就告訴你給你們一個機會好好的對全國人民說明一下我們現在重啟核能的進程是什麼"},{"start":3641.908,"end":3660.9,"text":"現況是什麼現況就是他們有送過來的我們現在正在所以啊所以現況是一定有內容的但是您也還沒有看到然後總經理說他不能說對那我們儘快儘快看那個內容可不可以confirm總經理你台電的立場你簡單說一下就好了"},{"start":3662.112,"end":3679.594,"text":"因为台电跟经济部对外的说明立场必须是一致的不能是不一致所以我们必须要内部跟经济部讨论完之后确定了我们才对外说明那我之前也有问过说那核二厂的干式储存厂的进度呢"},{"start":3680.888,"end":3701.907,"text":"目前已经在施工中就是核二干式储存厂室外的干式储存厂正在施工中那什么时候可以完工呢明年明年初就会完工完工之后还要做测试我知道安全评估嘛那这个跟严疫与否的决定会不会有所影响呢"},{"start":3702.247,"end":3726.355,"text":"核二厂绝对有影响因为核二厂燃料素还在反应炉里面我们必须要等室外干除做好然后把室外干除用过的核废料的原子素放回到室外干除之后我们才能够人进去做检查"},{"start":3727.356,"end":3750.896,"text":"會稍後一點我現在就是最後呼籲一下部長就是說我們不能夠只講說台灣要成為AI島卻沒有把背後的這些能源跟我們所有的電力的資源說清楚這等於是等於是你可以畫這個但你後面支援不上那沒有意思嘛好不好加油加油謝謝"},{"start":3755.782,"end":3772.817,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請邱映媛委員請做詢談好 謝謝主席我請一下部長我們再請龔部長"},{"start":3780.106,"end":3808.726,"text":"邱委員早部長好部長我想我們今天要審查這個公司法跟這個能源管理法是的那本席就能源管理法提出了一個修正的版本是增訂第19條之二是本席的內容是明定任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應或能源基礎設施的不實謠言以及增訂第27條之一對於違反者若造成社會秩序危害或引發公眾恐慌"},{"start":3809.326,"end":3823.579,"text":"出於新台幣10萬以上60萬以下的罰款這個部長我想您大概也非常清楚這幾年其實台灣受到境外的這一些認知作戰的影響是非常的巨大包括"},{"start":3824.676,"end":3852.847,"text":"其實在今年的這個興達電廠的火災之後呢就有媒體就寫說不排除分區限電然後前一陣子大家一直在講說這個烏山頭水庫的太陽能板是不是有毒是不是用清潔劑去洗太陽能板那甚至昨天前天在這個社群媒體的平台上面還有人說嘉義東石外海有這麼多漂流的光電板"},{"start":3853.668,"end":3857.043,"text":"漂浮的光電板民進黨是怎麼做事的"},{"start":3858.762,"end":3887.521,"text":"這個東石外海的這個不是光電板是磕碰但是類似這樣的一些假訊息一直不斷的來做干擾部長您到底怎麼看本席的這個提案你知不支持雖然你剛剛講說這個是不是要等你們所有的這個行政院版的版本出來那我覺得對於假訊息對於故意散播謠言這一件事情"},{"start":3888.861,"end":3913.526,"text":"還需要等嗎還要再等你們的版本出來嗎報委員 這方向上當然我們是樂觀其成是支持但是現在因為相關有關於這個謠言主要還是已經有這個社會秩序維護法了那怎麼樣這邊跟社會秩序服務法看怎麼樣內容上有一些協調或者是執行上要怎麼去處理可能我們要再思考一下"},{"start":3915.197,"end":3939.769,"text":"所以你還是要等社會秩序維護法部長我請教一下你們有沒有去做過一些調查統計關於這種來自境外IP的組織操作的這些跟能源相關的議題有沒有去做過調查有沒有去做過統計然後這樣的供給的頻率跟次數影響的程度你們有沒有去做過調查跟統計"},{"start":3940.769,"end":3959.272,"text":"沒有詳細但是有感覺到是越來越你如果沒有做過統計當然你就會覺得我就等社委法我就等什麼法如果你有去做過統計的話你會知道越來越頻繁就感受得到這樣的這個境外的攻擊對台灣的整體能源政策來講其實是"},{"start":3960.543,"end":3985.572,"text":"非常嚴重的境外的攻擊不只是在政治面上面他在國家的很多的施政上面其實都會造成巨大的影響所以我想請您回去好好想一下如果說這一件事情你們認為這些境外的攻擊是嚴重的是不是能夠考慮把本席的這個提案納入在我們明天的這個審查討論裡頭這個是第一點第二點"},{"start":3990.536,"end":4011.706,"text":"關於這個境外中國電商落地納管部長我要請教一下你所謂的落地納管是什麼意思落地納什麼管哪一個法來管理管理他的哪一些部分比如說現在我們知道這個淘寶"},{"start":4013.715,"end":4042.739,"text":"淘寶他其實我們都知道他是中資可是他在台灣的落地他在台灣的設立是用港資 淘寶公司台灣的分公司那港資的台灣分公司在台灣他具不具備有法人的身份歐洲 日本 韓國都早就已經要求跨境的電商要設立法人可是台灣沒有你要求他落地納管"},{"start":4043.769,"end":4069.45,"text":"要管理他什麼要用什麼法去管理他他要遵循你哪一個法如果說這樣的一個跨境電商你現在陸委會也講啊我們的中資管理辦法裡頭沒有開放電商啊可是大家都知道淘寶就是中資啊你可以告訴我你要怎麼管嗎報委員基本上我們現在的態度還是不會讓"},{"start":4070.683,"end":4086.84,"text":"淘寶來台灣經營電商那現在這個香港商你這個不是很鄉怨嗎不要讓淘寶來台灣經營電商可是淘寶就在台灣啊沒有 他只能經營有一些船艙上的傳送而已這個是廣告小船的傳送網路上到處都有啊"},{"start":4087.521,"end":4115.963,"text":"然後他不能透過媒體來做廣告是不是他只是不能透過媒體做廣告他現在淘寶需要透過什麼媒體做廣告大家都知道淘寶他還需要做什麼廣告他繞了一個彎用港資成立台灣的分公司那你要落地納管你要管他什麼我就簡單問你這一句話嘛你要用哪一個法來管他我簡單問你嘛這一家台灣的分公司有沒有繳稅他的營業額他有沒有繳稅他幾乎沒有營業額"},{"start":4118.317,"end":4142.535,"text":"他只是一個推波廣就是這個發放小船單啊或等等一些情況你說他幾乎沒有營業這跟我們社會的認知差別太大了吧那他沒有營業你為什麼要納管他你為什麼要叫他落地納管你要管他什麼我剛一直問你這一句話嘛你一直要納管你要管他什麼然後你現在告訴我他沒有營業那他沒有營業你還要管他什麼你叫他直接公司收起來"},{"start":4143.619,"end":4167.831,"text":"各位原報告香港淘寶在這邊我們只有核准他廣告傳單的分送那現在大家在上那個淘寶他其實並沒有落地在我們台灣成立淘寶的購物網他大概都是用那個大陸的那個淘寶電商那這個部分目前納管的話就是說如果你沒有在台灣落地我們就不讓你可以經營那也是用這樣那這個部分因為涉及到跨部會可能我們還跟"},{"start":4168.651,"end":4191.643,"text":"蘇衛部那邊一起來討論一下怎麼去管理這個跨境電商這種沒有落地而違法經營的問題其實這個問題已經很久了淘寶這件事情還不只淘寶什麼拼多多各式各樣的這些跨境電商他現在就是鑽台灣的法律漏洞那這個過去大家從中國跨境買的包裹"},{"start":4192.901,"end":4218.772,"text":"常常我們這個包裹收到的時候裡面會收到一條豬肉條會收到一個豬肉乾會收到一個豬肉香腸這個都是漏洞現在非洲住溫入侵台灣很有可能是透過這些郵包我說有可能或者是被不知名的人士在這個"},{"start":4220.765,"end":4239.901,"text":"航運的時候帶進偷帶豬肉進來台灣總之這個非洲豬瘟已經在台灣產生已經在台灣出現現在我們要亡羊補牢要來管理這一些中國跨境郵包的時候這個郵包的數量最多我想應該就是淘寶嘛"},{"start":4240.785,"end":4254.938,"text":"那淘寶大家都知道他是跨境電商都知道他是中國是中國的阿里巴巴集團在管理管控那你們現在一直跟我說要落地納管我們沒有要讓他落地因為我們不想希望他在這邊合法經營"},{"start":4261.872,"end":4284.258,"text":"部長我們要認真務實的去處理這個事情啊你不讓他在這裡落地合法經營他透過港資成立台灣的分公司那你現在又說台灣的分公司沒有在經營他是直接到網站上面去買那就沒有什麼落地納管的問題啊你管不了他嗎因為你都講了他沒有在台灣營業嘛他沒有在台灣經營嘛"},{"start":4286.118,"end":4300.744,"text":"你自己的立場 政府自己的立場都踩得這麼不穩了你還替他說話 你說他沒有在台灣經營這個我聽不下去嘛 然後政府又告訴行政院長要跟我們說要落地納管他不能在台灣這個有這個前台的這個"},{"start":4304.058,"end":4328.853,"text":"他現在不需要在台灣有前台的經營嘛直接網站連結到中國就上去了嘛直接就在中國的網站上就買了嘛那你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛我現在一直要問的就是說你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛所以這個為什麼要跨部會就是這樣因為就經濟部來講他只有讓中資能不能落地這件事情而已事實上基本上電商的管理是數位發展部在管的"},{"start":4331.514,"end":4350.842,"text":"中資不能落地或者是該怎麼落地能不能落地這件事情的確討論很久中資拐了一個彎變成其他的不知名的資不管是港資什麼新加坡資什麼資他實際的後台還是在中國這件事情你們也要正視"},{"start":4353.36,"end":4381.238,"text":"這件事情我們不能相怨不能蒙著頭說他沒有在台灣實際經營實際營業我們不能蒙著頭去處理這個事情否則你後面你很難管我知道 他如果違規的話我們就會把他取消資格那你又說他沒有在台灣營業啊所以他怎麼違規所以我們現在就是因為你的講法是前後矛盾的嘛部長我不要再問你了我再問下去喔會很難看的啦但是你自己立場要站好齋啦我們不會讓他營業"},{"start":4384.827,"end":4405.516,"text":"我的建議是說不是你要不要讓他營業這件事情而是跨境電商包括有中資成分的這些跨境電商拐了一個彎進來轉了一個彎進來實際後頭控制還是在中國我們政府應該要怎麼面對這個是源頭的管理好不好 部長"},{"start":4413.174,"end":4426.145,"text":"谢谢 接下来我们请郑正前委员请做寻讨谢谢主席 我想请一下工部长我们再请经济部工部长"},{"start":4431.957,"end":4452.44,"text":"政委好部長好我想請教一下因為之前的經濟部長郭志輝他之前在113年7月30號有先預告修正能源管理法部分條文結果已經一年多了到現在都還沒有送來立法院請問一下部長情況到底是為什麼然後現在進度到哪裡"},{"start":4454.001,"end":4474.609,"text":"報委事實上我們已經有送到行政院了那行政院他還在做一些條文的一些檢視因為他要配合整個在政人員法案條例還有電閱法所以現在行政院嘛對不對有沒有預計什麼時候會送到立法院來他要拖多久"},{"start":4475.646,"end":4492.248,"text":"不會 應該最晚大概一兩個月內但行政院的報告就是事實上行政院已經有討論過幾次會議那當然我不能幫行政院決定時間但是我相信很快大概我在想最晚大概兩個月內應該就會送出來"},{"start":4492.648,"end":4516.09,"text":"那也就更快 因為我們在討論中 我們沒有辦法幫行政局好 理解那我想請教一下 因為當時候在這個預告修正的部分的時候我覺得裡面有三個部分 其實是比較新的一個概念第一個部分是需求面節約能源管理從原本的定位朝向需求面的一個節約能源管理這部分那這個部分的時候 部長是支持的嘛 對不對還是"},{"start":4517.475,"end":4539.807,"text":"部長各位請說 支持嘛 OK好那另外一個部分就是說因為當時的部分他也表示要把再生能源納入規範這個部分也是支持的對不對 是的OK好那第三個部分的時候就是說當時的預告修正版本的時候有提到說要公開能源銷售相關的資料"},{"start":4542.211,"end":4567.098,"text":"這也是支持的所以這三個部分都有送到行政院板裡頭對不對ok好理解那這個部分我們就期待那希望說真的這個能源管理法部分我們是能夠盡快把它完善那對台灣接下來的一個能源管理部分會有更好的一個注意那另外一個部分我想今天因為今天本席就有提到一個公司把第160條的修正案我想請教一下部長"},{"start":4570.036,"end":4590.553,"text":"因為資誠之前在2023年曾經發布一個全球際台灣家族企業調查報告他特別提到說全台灣有七成以上的上市上位公司都是家族企業那麼其中第一代掌管的高達54%其中有43%的企業對於接班還有股權傳承是沒有規劃的"},{"start":4595.858,"end":4610.126,"text":"部長你應該知道這個狀態因為部長對企業的了解應該也是非常深的我想請教一下在這樣的一個情況之下如果說我們現在還是用一個全體同意的方式來處理"},{"start":4612.367,"end":4639.774,"text":"共同共有的那個持股這樣的一個部分的時候我想請問一下部長你不覺得這樣子的時候我們接下來會有多少的一個企業台灣的家族企業會碰到了這樣子的一個企業僵局當中部長你可以簡單回應一下是 鮑委員這個題就像我剛剛事實上在報告的時候也就是說明那我們也跟跨部會有徵詢過意見那"},{"start":4642.447,"end":4669.479,"text":"過去最高法院的判決向來是認定要回歸民法那現在民法的規定他還是採用這個共識決的方式那司法院也認為 市部長你這邊有特別提到說透過遺產分割方式來解決嘛你知道很多家族企業第一代老闆走掉之後的時候他的遺產只要他有外面有私生子的時候這個問題一定沒有辦法短期內解決的"},{"start":4671.052,"end":4686.924,"text":"部長我想請教一下如果說要用這樣的方式來透過遺產分割的方式解決的時候曠日廢時啊部長你有沒有稍微去了解一下目前台灣的上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的公司碰到這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":4687.984,"end":4702.743,"text":"法委員是不是司法院有代表我們是不是請這個司法院有代表是不是也讓他說明一下因為法律的好我們請司法院"},{"start":4722.35,"end":4742.046,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢那這個部分我們其實今天在這個我們的書面報告裡面其實有寫到就關於這個共有股份的權利行使的這部分其實因為試設政策考量所以本院這邊是尊重主管機關以及立法院的職權也就是說其實今天如果今天條文規定的是明確的話其實"},{"start":4743.047,"end":4771.381,"text":"所以我們要修法就這部分嘛這就是我們要修法的原因那現在企業界碰到這麼多共同共有的一個持股狀態的時候然後我們要解決所以部長現在你用司法院他在說法的時候完全不是要解決問題啊你知道嗎他只尊重現在的一個法律的狀態那我們修法不就是要解決現在企業碰到的問題嗎所以我想請教部長現在上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的企業碰到這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":4772.501,"end":4801.007,"text":"一個問題沒有辦法解決你有沒有一個統計的數字如果沒有的時候喔你回去了解之後再到本辦公室來報告我再問一下部長我們公司法當中現在法條有多少條不曉得連這個都不曉得有400多條對400多條具體數字都還不曉得我告訴你那你知道裡面有多少條跟股東會有關"},{"start":4803.359,"end":4825.714,"text":"都不知道對不對我稍微統計的是大概有80條以上是跟董事會的權責有關那麼這麼多的狀態的時候如果說我們因為這樣子一個僵局的時候董事會都沒辦法召開然後股東會沒辦法召開然後董事會沒有辦法改選那這樣企業不是蕩在那邊"},{"start":4827.15,"end":4846.691,"text":"那我們經濟部這邊沒有責任要來解決這個問題嗎跟委員說明這個部分我們事實上有開過非常多次的專家會議在討論事實上對於股東權這個部分他除了管理權之外他可能還包括處分那這邊必須要去釐清因為"},{"start":4847.338,"end":4860.637,"text":"在民法上面他如果处分的话他就必须是回到是共识决但是股东权利的行使他不是只有管理所以这边的话我们跟司法院这边征询他们的意见也是这个样子"},{"start":4861.977,"end":4889.545,"text":"本席理解這個狀態因為你來本辦公室溝通過好多次那我們知道說其實他這部分包括整個權益的問題還有行為處分上面的一些相關的一個問題可是問題是如果我們idol在這個地方的時候這個問題我永遠沒辦法解決然後一個遺產的問題打個十幾年的官司所在多有如果因為這樣的狀態我們就沒有辦法去做董事會的改選去做"},{"start":4891.294,"end":4913.996,"text":"股東的一個股東會的一個召開等等相關的一個問題的時候我就對整個企業長期發展肯定是有很大的一個問題所以本席希望針對這個部分部長你可不可以好好的來解決然後我剛剛提到那幾個問題目前上市公司有多少碰到這樣子問題還沒有解決的之後到本辦公室來做一個很清楚的說明因為現在連土地法這種靜態的財產都可以用這樣子"},{"start":4916.378,"end":4937.452,"text":"多數決的一個方式來做解決為什麼我們動態的一個股東權益沒有辦法去做解決本席認為不太應該那麼在剛剛本席一開始的一個修法的一個說明當中的時候也特別提到那我最後再提到一個問題就是立法院這邊的時候有特別提到"},{"start":4938.905,"end":4952.365,"text":"能源署這邊對於陸域風機的選址管制的相關的一個規定那之前能源署是表示說沒有提供陸域風機的用地指引是因為權責單位太多對不對"},{"start":4955.049,"end":4979.506,"text":"所以你們沒有辦法提出來可是問題是這個也不是解決問題的方式因為既然能源署是管這個部分的時候那是不是應該要作為跨部會的一個協商然後提出一個用地指引不要把這個問題直接丟給環境影響評估然後當作一個我們主管單位的一個推卸責任的一個狀態可不可以"},{"start":4980.831,"end":5009.959,"text":"好 我們來跟環境部還有各單位來討論一下那大概什麼時候可以有一個結果出來年底可以嘛 年底之前今年年底是不是對 OK好那我們希望說公司法的部分我希望部長這邊能夠再去多了解一下之後再到本辦公室來做一個詳細的說明因為我覺得這個部分是很多台灣的家族企業都碰到的問題現在不解決 未來問題只會越來越多好的好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5012.932,"end":5014.958,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝曾委員 謝謝龔部長接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做巡檔"},{"start":5042.186,"end":5064.061,"text":"謝謝主席 現在公布長我們再請公布長張委員早 公布長早10月31號路透社做了一個很重要的報導 他們說台灣化石燃料發電的比例竟然高達"},{"start":5067.232,"end":5093.192,"text":"87%台灣已經成為淨零碳排的反指標他明確講的這個數據怎麼說他說今年前8個月台灣超過87%的電力供應都是來自於化石燃料這個是亞洲第八經濟體我們台灣現在是整個亞洲第八大的經濟體有史以來化石燃料占最高的一次所以創了台灣歷史的一個新高"},{"start":5094.773,"end":5123.823,"text":"他還特別講台灣化石燃料這個發電這個數額啊超過亞洲的平均水準亞洲平均水準是62我們87全球是57這意味著台灣在能源轉型啊在主要經濟體裡面人家用諷刺的字眼說我們啊脫穎而出我今天是要問你這個這對國家發展很重要這在國際上很見笑的啦丟臉了來部長我給你看一下這是古年啊"},{"start":5125.608,"end":5142.996,"text":"誒 那個科技指導那一張部長你記得嗎 你去年那個時候你在這邊打巡你那時候是國發會的主委嘛我那時候曾經引用一個那時候剛好這個聯合國企劃變遷大會啊 COP那時候第28第28"},{"start":5149.52,"end":5176.402,"text":"那時候我們的世界排名是我們的談判檢探的這個結果是全世界倒數第七那時候我還跟你要求國發會的主委 國民心說要趕快去解決這個問題對不對幾年都過了結果到了我是秘書長任內你先做國發會主委 秘書長那你在國發會秘書長的時候我就問過你說你要去解決這個問題那應該是前年吧前年結果你看"},{"start":5177.389,"end":5189.26,"text":"最近這一兩年你看我們在碳排這一塊在國際上排名都這麼糟糕怎麼辦這不是很沒有面子而且對我們整個健康整個產業甚至這個環境永續還有電價再生能源要趕快來發展因為這個"},{"start":5195.492,"end":5210.98,"text":"不是用化石的百分之十幾就是再生能源那就是因為你的再生為什麼會這麼高化石燃料為什麼這麼高就是再生能源沒有跟上來嘛我們本來今年底我們政府本來再生能源要達到多少"},{"start":5211.96,"end":5240.849,"text":"以氣代替煤炭的話那個效果是存在的減碳是有存在的可是你兩件事沒有做好嘛對不對一個就是你再生能源的速度太慢嘛你本來今年底應該到至少要20啊到目前還在13 14那邊徘徊啊這是第一個嘛第二個更重要啊你把那個18%的那個沒有排碳的核能停掉了嘛所以你當然就全世界笑你啊沒有18%啦17到18啦三個廠 核一 核二 核三嘛一個大概都是6%左右嘛"},{"start":5241.65,"end":5258.128,"text":"最重要來我給你看來我們看一下我們美式政府都說我們減碳有成其實我們是在亞洲倒數而且啊現在一個很嚴重你看沙烏地阿拉伯生產石油對不對"},{"start":5260.276,"end":5282.608,"text":"人家私有國家他排名206我們207耶連大陸都排在180來來來現在嚴重在什麼地方你看一下看下一張所以我們非核家園是不是用健康環境跟電價去堆疊出來的那個部長你看人家走下腳"},{"start":5284.959,"end":5311.846,"text":"對 我們當然就是剛剛提到的以氣換煤的話就是往健康方向空污也減少了你現在目前只有做了一個就是把煤炭少一點變成是天然氣用這個來收水我剛才說的你就是把核電用完核電第一個 核電停完之後造成的污染跟排炭第二個也很嚴重我現在來講 來 你看一下核能 你看這一張核能在今年的6月份歸零之後左邊這個火力發電就一直成長"},{"start":5313.732,"end":5342.006,"text":"然後你再生能源又被跟上來嘛所以趕快去把這兩個問題要解決好不好來 我繼續看你路透社來講的一件事情就是我接下來跟你討論的他說啊 大罷免期間啊民進黨立委都在講那個什麼我們小小多山的國家這個路透社說什麼台灣是多山而且人口稠密的島嶼不適合建造大規模的再生能源的這個發電廠所以我們再生能源到底被他折這件事情出現那麼多弊案"},{"start":5343.291,"end":5367.963,"text":"特別是光電要好好要好好去不要山跟海都是結果出現一堆彼岸來我給你看一個非常聳動而且非常重要的案子來不然你怎麼看法門北門啊有一個光電的開發案結果十幾位黑道啊赤嶺 你看那新窟赤嶺赤鳳的跑到宮廟"},{"start":5369.912,"end":5398.476,"text":"去威脅當地的居民說你要同意這個開發隔一天人家就去報案了警察官後來都傳去了很聳動的是什麼這些人裡面包括了立陽案就是台南開88槍的立陽案一個主嫌蔡金郎也在裡面你看多麼無法無天多麼無法無天"},{"start":5402.503,"end":5429.906,"text":"我今天更生氣的是什麼我從7月份開始民眾求助無門來陳情我從7月份就跟你指手支跟經濟部居民要的只有三個前面兩個跟你經濟部都有絕對的關係他說說明會不通知相關的利害人程序明明是有問題啊第二個整個光電能力開發的面積不斷在增加壓縮他們生活空間跟生活品質"},{"start":5431.823,"end":5453.313,"text":"這兩個都是經濟部能源署管的啊 對不對我從7月份喔 跟你所知到現在資料為什麼不給我居民求救無門 立法委員行政職權 要把問題弄清楚你到現在資料都不給我們現在民眾都講 你們什麼光電黑金的門審"},{"start":5455.066,"end":5476.127,"text":"你們是共患嗎這不是你們該做的事嗎保定為什麼連一個程序有問題了居民就直接問啊說明會相關的關係利害人都沒要吹然後你面積為什麼讓他擴大來我跟你來我給你所知的內容給大家看你看"},{"start":5479.039,"end":5499.025,"text":"我們請全民來看 當一個立法委員 街道陳情民眾那麼可憐 黑道都找上門了還有88槍的主嫌耶結果要的資料 這是不是都是你主管的我要把它釐清到底什麼環節出問題你為什麼到現在資料不給我"},{"start":5500.98,"end":5525.91,"text":"委員好我們來說明一下因為這是好幾個不同的案件那有的當然已經進入司法程序那剛才委員提到司法人家檢察官後來就傳了包括這個主嫌都傳去嘛是那我們現在談的是行政行政的問題啊包括剛剛講的他們陳情不都是你管的他說來你看看在哪裡來來看那個陳情來我手持的資料來你看一下你看這個第二項"},{"start":5530.134,"end":5556.107,"text":"我要你土地性質跟使用分區它的開發用途有沒有變更你當初為什麼要核准核准文件在哪裡第三個你有沒有相關紀錄對不對你當初說明會跟地方協調會你的會議紀錄一定要送到你這邊嘛對不對都出問題了你連這個東西都不拿出來給大家看是的第一項談的是什麼他們說範圍一直在擴大我說你把所有旁邊的到底沒有擴大給我"},{"start":5559.201,"end":5562.37,"text":"民眾那麼可憐 你不幫他們連立委跟你要資料"},{"start":5565.986,"end":5590.192,"text":"那個謝謝委員的關心那我知道委員長期很關心這些民眾的關心的事情那大概剛才提到資料當然剛才提到事實上有好幾個案件那有的已經進入司法程序那另外也就是說如果有發生什麼弊案事實上我們有一個打擊綠能犯罪小組我們隨時都可以提供到那個小組那回到剛才委員比較關心的資料你有送嗎"},{"start":5591.152,"end":5614,"text":"你發現你有送去那這個資料為什麼不能給司法有司法的這個程序嘛我現在跟你要的是行政的這個資料你為什麼給我是委員報告的就是我們委員在7月14有提到有關那個瑞日那麼有一些民眾抗爭的事情那事實上我們在8月15有給這個委員當時是要我們當時的組長當時的組長他相關的會議的資料那我們這個有把他16場主持的會議的資料記錄給委員"},{"start":5620.802,"end":5639.894,"text":"那另外委員還有要相關的資料剛才講到這些地址 這個我們正在整理那我們完成之後我們就會三個月到現在在整理喔是 因為委員要的很細啦你三天內可以給我嗎我特別是第一項到這個第二大項裡面的暗藏跟他們那個開會的那個過程你會記錄這三個在三天內給我"},{"start":5644.929,"end":5661.595,"text":"我們先整理因為委員當時要的資料很多那我們可以先把我們整理好的就提供給委員那陸續是不是容許我們再來整理三天內可以嗎我跟你講現在地方怎麼傳你啦現在經濟部經濟部已經形象要好了"},{"start":5663.336,"end":5691.073,"text":"順應線這樣一路會沒電 經濟沒成效現在人家電視說你怎麼樣變成光電黑金的門神了啦 共患了委員長期關心我們很重視委員的這些需要的資料那我們會全力盡力來盡速提供三天看那我們可以先提供我們已經完成的部分是不是給委員那因為這個資料蠻多的那我們陸續整理那慢慢完備之後如果是允許我們逐批的給委員那這樣子可以讓委員馬上這邊也可以同步"},{"start":5691.974,"end":5697.77,"text":"來作業你已經整理了三個月了你現在手上有的趕快給我因為我們要盤點一集最晚什麼時候會完整給我"},{"start":5698.696,"end":5722.965,"text":"我們可能要調閱資料因為委員要的資料最主要是那個現在居民最在意的你為什麼那個暗場一直在增加把他們整個包圍起來第二個明明就陳情了協調會跟說明會有狀況這個紀錄都在你手上嘛不要說經濟三高的你本身去的就要有嘛你至少把這兩個這兩個都是現成的你三天內先送到這邊來要會議資料我們可以比較早提供啦那有些地目地號那個我們要仔細盤點"},{"start":5724.445,"end":5738.895,"text":"因為我們怕給未來的不正確先把那個會議紀錄 三天內先送過來那相關的盡快 好不好然後注意一下 保定保定 你現在是經濟部長我剛才在強調經濟部長久的形象是好的地方已經 地方跟你們陳情然後這個新聞已經鬧這麼大"},{"start":5741.589,"end":5769.668,"text":"88槍的主嫌都已經檢方都調去問了只要是違法我們現在都是送那個廉政平台對嘛一條是司法嘛對不對一條你的行政體系你要去處理啊人家現在賣就是賣你啊畢竟整個綠營產業違規違法的部分還是少部分但是我們一定要把這些這個案子就很嚴重了好不好把經濟部的形象做好把人民的這個生活跟他們他們已經受到多大的影響好不好資料趕快給我好 謝謝"},{"start":5772.029,"end":5795.12,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝張綺凱委員也謝謝龔部長行政部門請一定要加油因為委員要的資料大家都理性在討論剛剛回答說地籍的部分你們還要怎麼樣這麼久的時間地籍我們本來就有地政事務所你只要要做你一個申請"},{"start":5796.8,"end":5809.285,"text":"這馬上出來為什麼會拿這個來當理由所以必須要加油好不好將委員所需要的相關資料趕快跟委員來說明清楚接下來我們請陳婷菲委員請做詢問謝謝主席我們請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":5825.18,"end":5828.083,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":5846.081,"end":5862.809,"text":"因為在整個國內斜的產業我們台南應該是佔最大宗的就是目前還有工廠在生產的否則現在大概都是用進口外銷這樣的一個所謂平台而已可是唯一"},{"start":5863.709,"end":5886.535,"text":"有在做實質一個生產製造就是我們比例最多台南所以我們現在輔誠協目前我們也擴大業業結合用我們的社會我們協跟社會做跨產業合作那我要詢問的是"},{"start":5889.922,"end":5898.517,"text":"我想我们辅诚协开始记者会然后打出了我们的品牌之后我们重要的是通路"},{"start":5899.847,"end":5927.741,"text":"通路很重要 是在我們台灣的通路是不是可以把我們所有的通路做成Q進來讓他們看到我們台南的路這個很重要那我們之前是全家福那現在可能明年是DK所以如果是這樣子的話到底我們這個通路可以擴展到什麼程度"},{"start":5929.378,"end":5954.006,"text":"有沒有去預計過我們通路現在當然有包括線上的通路也有這個實體的通路那我是不是請那個我們商業署長稍微說明一下那個委員就是浮塵鞋這邊因為在那個年初的時候因為跟刺繡那邊也有相關嘛那鞋子的部分我們在有辦一些展售會我們也主動去有邀請這些鞋業的業者也能夠一起來"},{"start":5954.656,"end":5970.655,"text":"那未来辅诚协这边我们也会跨局处之间我们再办一些展售活动通路或是线上我们都会一起把它有我必须肯定是从去年到现在我们感受到我们终于有被关心了"},{"start":5972.062,"end":5999.075,"text":"在台南說這個蝦是我們非常傳統的產業我們從小的時候我們家裡大家這樣一間家裡可能一座蝦就吃一戒火但是到現在來慢慢的好像整個需求量沒那麼高我們一直在說的我們實在是我們一箱一箱用手工的我們的品質過去我們的蝦"},{"start":6000.936,"end":6028.556,"text":"在世界各國 人家說Made in Taiwan大家避一避 可是那是多久的時間我們怎麼再重新把品牌製造出來所以很感謝我們有了輔誠鞋這樣的一個依靠那我們現在把它正式記者會公開了好 這個品牌輔誠鞋 那我們要問那沒有錯 我們各個"},{"start":6029.997,"end":6036.119,"text":"经济部所管辖的相关都有尽力在协助可是这个通路"},{"start":6037.831,"end":6062.038,"text":"雖然我們有網路我們有實體可是我們怎麼讓大家能夠更清楚瞭解富翔鴨就是過去的made in Taiwan這種的公司請一箱台灣鴨請一箱富翔鴨它可以外公營因為這代表著我們台南的品牌跟台灣的品牌我們要怎麼做"},{"start":6065.123,"end":6075.827,"text":"組長有沒有想過那個委員我們這邊可以針對這個鞋子或者俯臣鞋這邊來做一個專案的一個協助輔導那是不是讓我們再跟業者這邊來接洽"},{"start":6078.447,"end":6105.784,"text":"其实他们已经都觉得你们有在帮忙了但是我觉得我们希望的是真的让很多的产业继续扎根所以这个通路很重要有这个拼白料我们这个通路很重要然后另外就是说部长你记不记得我们上个礼拜一去到我们台南做对谈的时候我们有讲到说辅导"},{"start":6107.044,"end":6131.014,"text":"我想我們現在有一個很重要的智慧科技輔具我們怎麼從這個來延伸AI加上我們的AI因為現在失智越來越多的案例所以我們怎麼讓這個所謂的AI它原本都是穿著腳"},{"start":6132.318,"end":6159.476,"text":"李嘉在失智之前人家的研究可能他会对于他某一个颜色或是他过去的某一个样态他会特别特别记忆犹新所以我们怎么让我们这个所谓的智慧科技辅具如果我们延伸我们用AI辅导然后跟智慧科技辅具跟辅成鞋结合"},{"start":6162.861,"end":6164.851,"text":"其实这是一个很好的点是"},{"start":6165.472,"end":6191.882,"text":"对不对 对因为我们现在刚好都在推这个智慧科技辅具那如果我们可以借着这一次大家开始在讨论失智然后我们怎么用科技的一个脉络然后把我们的长者失智的长者能够保护他让他免于跑不见或是我们可以把他找回来"},{"start":6192.902,"end":6214.449,"text":"那所以我觉得鞋算是一个很重要而且也是我们可以以前都是用手环的对不对可是手环如果他拿掉了你完全就找不到但是会啊鞋子不会啊而且鞋子它有足迹走到哪里都很清楚"},{"start":6215.771,"end":6243.836,"text":"所以我觉得那一天跟你对谈之后我觉得如果我们可以把这个用AI然后导入到我们的传产那么写是一个很好的代表性刚好现在大家都在谈失智这个状态那我们要怎么来协助更多这个案例越来越多那个部长你觉得呢我觉得谢委员提醒我觉得非常棒所以"},{"start":6244.366,"end":6268.065,"text":"不仅把AI跟智慧导入之外我们可以把它形成一个专案那顺便也把那个通路也把它一并一个专案辅导就是除了科技导入之外还有怎么样通路把它设计出来那这个专案里面把它一并的把它形成我请军工中心来协助来做部长因为传统产业你要个别去找"},{"start":6268.826,"end":6291.529,"text":"每一个公司其实有它的困难度你可以先找工会就像你这个我们这个计划它是以台南市皮革制品工会为主那么其实我刚提的这个案子你就可以请施策会因为施策会现在都有跟工会在做对接那是不是把金工中心也加进来是"},{"start":6291.969,"end":6317.615,"text":"然后让AI然后协助他们去做这个转型如果我们可以研发出来说真的这个对于我们在寻找我们万一我们的失智状态的一个案例它其实会有很大的帮助所以这个部分再拜托了谢谢然后再来就是我们现在地下管线的投资"},{"start":6318.715,"end":6344.484,"text":"部長 這個其實我之前已經講過很多次了就不論是公營民營包括天然氣管線還有我們的瓦斯管線還有所有相關的這個國營事業的管線我們到底現在有多少整合這些系統到底我們建立了沒從新設管線 既有管線 過去的管線這個部分呢"},{"start":6348.567,"end":6364.866,"text":"来我们请没关系市长你直接回答就我们新设的管线就会把那个图资就会提供给内政部的国土署那既有的管线我们也是配合就是除了巡检以外我们会配合他每次在换新的时候就会把图资可是问题是换新多久啊"},{"start":6366.071,"end":6388.723,"text":"就是说我们会把既有的也已经上传了那趁着换新的时候如果有在做维修的时候再会检查确定既有的你知道吗有些是一二十年了你怎么去寻找这些既有管些的图资我们过去就有图资那只是说我们要确定你们的都不完整我就跟你讲过嘛你连天燃气"},{"start":6389.824,"end":6415.301,"text":"天然氣 我們自來水都會去挖到天然氣管線台南就有這個案例啦表示你們的圖資是不完整的嘛應該是說早期的圖資它不是三維的嘛那我們現在會趁著這個檢修的時候慢慢慢慢把它變成立體化的然後再也會上傳市長 我就說有些一二十年了你要怎麼把它變成三維"},{"start":6416.957,"end":6437.688,"text":"没有办法所以他们现在如果有汉格的时候就挖到了因为它的深度没有明显标示所以你根本不清楚说我这个挖下去而且现在都是用浅钝的直接往前所以这个很重要之前就已经说过我们要用一个砖案"},{"start":6438.749,"end":6456.485,"text":"要求所有的管線系統不只是我們國營事業我們要帶頭我們國營事業從我們的台電自來水甚至我們電信還有天然氣瓦斯要怎麼樣變成一個專案讓他們來提供這些圖資"},{"start":6460.328,"end":6486.12,"text":"到底我们之前就已经建议过了所以表示都还没建立吗我刚刚就真委员报告我没有请大家来因为我们会配合每次试挖的时候因为第一个我们所有工程要在挖嘴的时候市长我已经说了那个太慢了你试挖那请问一二十年前的这些这些图资我就说台南就发生自来水管去撞到天然气管"},{"start":6487.04,"end":6492.677,"text":"那嚴不嚴重很嚴重啊因為他資料不清楚深度給的不對"},{"start":6494.468,"end":6520.146,"text":"那很嚴重那是剛好有發現如果沒發現他硬依照如果那個當時候在淺頓的這個工程師他沒有經驗的話他硬往前推你知道那時候會發生什麼事嗎所以這很重要起碼那個有極具危險像天然氣管線"},{"start":6521.601,"end":6550.424,"text":"我們台南已經有20宗以前的公所要怎麼辦這20宗的公所你要先處理啊先要求我們民間業者要先給相關的資料啊我們會把那個比較有危險性的像天然氣管然後像電線的管路我們會先把它建起來是啊我們自己以身作者再來要求民間業者你這個計畫一定要出來然後還有部長我們的"},{"start":6551.625,"end":6577.574,"text":"地下管線電線的地下管線電纜的地下管線我說的因為台南這一次總共兩三千支的這個電線倒塌我們到底怎麼編列預算這個很重要我們現在是特別預算那工部門的預算怎麼辦你們有思考好了嗎那天行政院長說好未來會思考工部門的預算要來編列那怎麼辦"},{"start":6579.923,"end":6601.662,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的預算是台電在編列不是經濟部在編列那台電編列當然我們也會思考到就是說整體的施工的量不是啦由台電編我告訴你啦台電到時候就說因為都虧損了所以編不出來啦所以我說為什麼叫經濟部為什麼上到卓院長"},{"start":6602.503,"end":6627.662,"text":"就是這個問題啊叫你們台電編 你們一定編不出來嘛你們說你們都虧損嘛那重點是 這個是韌性電纜韌性電纜要怎麼做我們要實質如果沒有倒了兩三千支可能大家的那個要求性還不高可是這個倒了兩三千支天公伯已經跟你說了你如果沒注意後面可能倒得越多那如果我們沒有位於籌謀怎麼辦"},{"start":6630.137,"end":6640.505,"text":"所以這個我們那個逐步來做啦至於說沒有 你們把計畫放出來到底是你們要編還是經濟部要編是好不好謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員請詢答接下來我們請謝鳳委員請準備謝鳳委員詢答完我們再休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6666.827,"end":6692.92,"text":"有請部長我們再請工部長政委好部長好那今天這個修正公司法的條文我們趙偉 楊瓊英趙偉提了公司法第235條之一的第二項特別提到"},{"start":6693.717,"end":6711.245,"text":"前向公司章程定名应分派员工酬劳至当年度厚率状况至定额或比例不得低于同业平均加薪的比例这个黄建斌委员也提了公司法第235条之一"},{"start":6712.535,"end":6739.333,"text":"这个第二项前项张诚定名分派员工酬劳之当年获利状况之定额或比例之调整不得第一最低工资法第九条消费者物价指数年增率拟定调整幅度他最主要的立法目的啊这个我们都知道这个我们劳工啊劳工的平均首得啊"},{"start":6741.164,"end":6770.069,"text":"是不高的都3萬多而已平均所得所以我們很多公司的盈利都非常好我們也支持但是怎麼樣讓勞工也能夠獲得應有的薪資這個是最主要立法的這個目的所以這個條文要怎麼樣修得更符合"},{"start":6771.294,"end":6788.104,"text":"大家可以討論大家可以討論這個我們經濟部的報告裡面提到說這個你們邀請過相關的專家寫者產業團體相關部會來討論"},{"start":6791.485,"end":6817.487,"text":"要不要说明一下部长这个部分报告委员现在就是希望员工薪资可以提升有几个保障如果是上市会公司当然就是证券交易法里面有规定的他一定有保障的情况那另外鼓励中小企业中小企业发展条例里面也有规范那他可以减除的这个税的优惠从"},{"start":6819.887,"end":6844.886,"text":"130现在到变成175所以那个诱因有提升了那鼓励中小企业对员工加薪那因为现在来讲公司法它涵盖的范围除了这个上市柜之外它还有这个虽然公发公司但是还没有上市柜那更多的是非公发公司那个都是非常非常小的部分那用这个方法来规范他们"},{"start":6845.905,"end":6871.459,"text":"覺得是尤其非常中小微的企業來講的話是比較難而且現在就是說委員的版本是說不要低於這個同業的這個加薪但是就變成兩邊都是動態的那很難去定義所以這個從實務上還有保障上來講的話就是我們提出我們的看法"},{"start":6873.502,"end":6896.784,"text":"但是這個部分還是要去解決了所以你們要提出一個解決的方法立法委員提出這樣的兩種版本到底要用哪一種版本或者是經濟部這個基於勞工的權益應該要"},{"start":6898.929,"end":6927.352,"text":"提出能夠符合各方面的這樣的一個版本最主要的目的就是要保障勞工的薪資所以這個部分我們在我希望經濟部針對這個版本能夠提出更好的版本大家在討論的時候能夠往好的方向好不好"},{"start":6928.902,"end":6956.161,"text":"好 接下来这个石油管理法这跟能源署有关系这个石油管理法第36条是本席在第8届的时候提出修正特别针对喷眼地区 盐住民主地区及离岛地区石油设施运输费用之补助及差额之补贴所以这个后来这个"},{"start":6958.175,"end":6969.818,"text":"能源署也依照石油管理法剛才授權的規定訂了費用補助的辦法基本上簡單講就是統裝瓦斯的補貼"},{"start":6976.713,"end":7001.018,"text":"也謝謝能源署這段時間自從這個法修正之後也都訂了這個補貼的一個辦法也都實施很多年了那現在就是因為我們的全國統裝瓦斯的軍價以今年來講去年也調了上這幾年都有調漲所以這個"},{"start":7005.711,"end":7021.59,"text":"我们看这个报道也是都有提到中油11月起桶装瓦斯每桶占9块所以这个部分相关的这些要配套这个我们能源署所定的这个"},{"start":7023.294,"end":7035.819,"text":"相關的這些補助辦法也要配合去明年今年的已經發了嘛對不對現在就是明年的嘛明年的是不是可以配合調整"},{"start":7038.11,"end":7065.97,"text":"部长可以吗是是我们会配合这个计算公司就会配合调整补助的这个金额也会增加因为这个部分因为这个对一个偏远地区原住民族地区的来讲是非常非常的重要因为这个这么远通常都过去都会因为路途遥远这个厂商在卖的时候就会卖的比较贵啊"},{"start":7067.01,"end":7094.805,"text":"所以才會有這樣的一個修法然後才會有這個訂定這個辦法所以請經濟部能源署配合來訂定最後跟能源署沒有關係 請回座部長還是要代談花蓮光復馬太安溪因為潰壩"},{"start":7097.186,"end":7124.84,"text":"造成重大的傷亡包括這麼大的部落的災情社區的災情所以很重要的提防輸菌相關的這些你們都在做沒有錯都在進行現在是這樣你們就中期中期的話就是到明年"},{"start":7126.25,"end":7152.973,"text":"4月以前對所要完成的這個中期的部分這個你們要讓那個第一個部會之間要讓內政部或是園民會要了解這個中期完成的話到明年4月完成的話然後你們跟農業部去了解這個目前的菸涉福的水量"},{"start":7154.673,"end":7180.1,"text":"萬一又潰壩的話到底會不會造成現在部落的社區的災害為什麼說要有這樣的一個了解是因為大家都擔心這會跟內政部規劃的中繼屋會有關係"},{"start":7181.918,"end":7196.336,"text":"或者是说要不要每个每个人每一个家屋是不是都要有中级屋随时是不是可以要逃离这也会跟这个每一次有台风的时候是不是就要"},{"start":7197.894,"end":7224.077,"text":"就要撤離都會有關係了所以這個部分你們去評估到底怎麼樣今天不必馬上給答案因為那個真的要去評估了好不好知道我的意思嗎我知道事實上謝謝委員提醒現在跨部會平台是還是存在的就是說對於這個驗射服的狀況的這個監視還是持續在監視的在既定的時間甚至於每天都在通報"},{"start":7224.898,"end":7251.849,"text":"那我們的部分蘇峻跟這個加高堤防的部分就會盡快來做明年汛期之前就趕快把它做完那之前也有演練的部分那就一段一段的事實上我要重點對你們來講就是說這個到明年4月以前完成的那個階段是不是現在的水在潰壩的話就不會造成現在就是實際一直在監控當中加油謝謝"},{"start":7255.745,"end":7272.766,"text":"好谢谢来接下来我们请谢一峰委员请做询谈谢谢好谢谢主席我想要请龚部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":7279.997,"end":7299.338,"text":"工部長早安我想要請問你你知道美國最高法院現在在審理川普政府他對等關稅的合法性什麼時候會出來你們有沒有評估好像大家評估說1月吧是不是這個就要看美國最高法院"},{"start":7299.963,"end":7320.758,"text":"的審理的進度你們都沒有評估嗎行政院或者你們經濟部相關的都沒評估嗎我們現在做好就是對等談判還是做好最好的準備因為我們不曉得談判可能的結果但是我們也理解就是說談判會在這個判決前還是判決後出來"},{"start":7321.599,"end":7348.935,"text":"你认为这个你们现在已经在谈了吗是不是对 还是持续谈那我们也有发现就是美国会把对等关税很多的项目基本上慢慢移到232去所以它当然也有一些他们的因应做法我说美国行政部会把它移到232有什么项目有些现在在讨论当中但是232因为还要做产业调查时程上会有一点232是不会受影响的吗"},{"start":7349.695,"end":7372.214,"text":"不会受这个最高法院审理的影响那贝森特也有说他说他可能会有就是说即便不合法的情况下他有可能会引用其他的有可能是122嘛贸易法的122条嘛"},{"start":7372.614,"end":7388.829,"text":"那122條它目前就是比較相對上就是對部分的商品徵收15%然後是150天這比目前我們台灣的對等關稅還要有利"},{"start":7389.77,"end":7408.922,"text":"就是15我們現在是20疊加嘛那他如果這個貿易法的122條的這個150天內徵收最高15%的關稅的話那是比目前的20%加N還要再好那另外他有可能採取的是關稅法338條"},{"start":7410.563,"end":7435.121,"text":"那338條他就會最高稅率就會到50%那請問我們如果未來面對這個情況但第一個情況是對等關稅會不會在審理之前出來那如果在審理之前出來我們是不是能夠爭取到就是說最有利的所以"},{"start":7436.082,"end":7441.152,"text":"像你們當初所認為目標的關稅15%是不是就是像貿易法122條這樣子的一個15%的關稅是不是"},{"start":7445.231,"end":7473.563,"text":"包括委員就是說我們還是至少要比20%要低往下談希望這樣子如果可以到15%的話當然也是我們的期待但是這就是還是中間要談而且不疊加那也希望就是說232的部分我們也可以有比較好的優惠待遇剛剛跟委員報告過因為他們行政部門事實上除了可能會引用其他的法案之外"},{"start":7473.991,"end":7501.046,"text":"也有可能把很多的项目移到232去所以232我们还是要谈所以为什么我们要求你们担心的应该是所有他们把可能加征关税的部分移到232去对 如果被判违宪的话如果那如果合宪就没有问题所以再怎么样我们还是要跟他们行政部门还是要持续的谈才可以保障我们的可能的权益"},{"start":7502.367,"end":7531.57,"text":"所以你也沒有說到底會在審理前我們的對等關稅就會出來因為美中也談了嘛對不對對 因為這個還是很難去預估啦還是要看美中談完了那是不是就是說他們也稀土也都暫緩一年了那是不是現在就就是我們台美的部分有沒有是不是應該要有一個比較比較明朗然後跟民眾也說啊是不是"},{"start":7532.942,"end":7553.2,"text":"当然我们态度上还是期待如果可以快的话我们是希望尽快因为我们毕竟现在的这个临时性的对等关税还是20%我们希望如果可以尽早决定的话如果可以往下调的话对我们帮助是比较好的所以你觉得会尽快谈"},{"start":7554.495,"end":7572.313,"text":"我們期待是希望然後談到15%是不是盡力啦盡力有可能嗎有可能嗎盡力盡力就是按照貿易法的122條對盡力談到15%我們來盡力希望委員給我們支持加油"},{"start":7573.618,"end":7598.3,"text":"我給你加油川普要不要給你加油我們盡力還有我還要再提到就是美中他們談到揮打的晶片這個問題那看來就是如果我們台灣要以就是AI為發展的這樣子一個半導體的未來的規劃"},{"start":7601.667,"end":7625.14,"text":"我們就會勢必要面臨的第一點美國他會不會還是持續的要求我們把我們整個半導體的供應鏈移往美國照美國的看法是這樣他是他國內的需求有一部分希望在美國生產因為他有經濟安全上的一些問題會不會希望加大"},{"start":7627.27,"end":7653.288,"text":"還沒有看到這樣的跡象會不會加大因為現在已經是它主要還是在滿足它美國需求為主它並沒有額外說要出口到其他地區的部分是希望在美國生產到達沒有這樣的情況對 因為它已經改變了過去我們是以就是效率為導向的現在它已經以安全韌性為導向它一直要求我們加大"},{"start":7654.208,"end":7678.073,"text":"過去在台灣生產對他們來講最有效率可是他們現在因為安全跟韌性的問題一直要求我們加大對美的投資對我們來講的話如果那邊有訂單可以獲益的話當然廠商的佈局我跟你講這是陷阱你一直去但是未來如果沒有一直去啦"},{"start":7679.494,"end":7697.086,"text":"我說他要求我們一直去嘛是不是那未來如果他們又調高美就是調高台灣相關的產品對美的這個關稅因為這個東西掌握在他們手上啊是不是這個主控權不在我們所以這個也是談判的過程嘛"},{"start":7697.806,"end":7718.576,"text":"對 我是說如果啦我們一直去的情況下當然不是這一次的談判如果下次或者是未來他們反而就是說提高了台灣蘇美半導體的相關的關稅的時候那我們就完了那時候你可能不是經濟部長啦"},{"start":7719.896,"end":7735.741,"text":"台灣總要有一個合理性跟一個依據嘛那你說你為了滿足美國國內的需求有一部分的產能在美國我覺得這個是還算是合理的但是你如果要過多的話而且是沒有假設是沒有效率的生產但是這不合理啊"},{"start":7736.441,"end":7752.974,"text":"也會影響到我們的就業人口啊會影響到台灣的就業人口啊台灣的部分倒沒有問題台灣的部分現在時序的半導體一直在增加我們只是現在擔心的就是說土地不足以去支撐那麼多的這些半導體廠或者是"},{"start":7755.195,"end":7783.437,"text":"相关的资源包括您刚才提到的人力的部分是啊因为不管是因为很多我们如果要去美国设厂我们的人力就要就是有一部分势必要去建厂等等相关的规划一定是往美国去那相关的我们在台湾如果要发展相关的半导体的时候所以您可以看到台积电的话它是建厂的人过去盖完厂以后它就回来所以它不会一直留在美国"},{"start":7783.877,"end":7810.156,"text":"那如果他要求我們加大呢你有辦法嗎有沒有辦法不要讓他要求我們加大啊因為加大到時候美國生產太多台灣要輸美的這些半島有關稅他又未來他如果突然把我們加高關稅咧沒有 他這個就是談判的過程他要我們去投資的話一定這個關稅會有最惠國的待遇我們才會同意啊"},{"start":7811.235,"end":7839.729,"text":"这是一个谈判过程好还有我觉得我们也必须要考量到大陆市场的AI发展我就说在全球的视角里面美国跟大陆是AI两个一个是高阶一个是低阶的相关的发展那大陆的市场对我们也是相当的有诱因那这样子的情况下我们未来我们的科技业要怎么样分散这些风险"},{"start":7840.609,"end":7855.124,"text":"但是也是我們台灣政府必須要考量的是 只要不是在這個管制的項目範圍啊那或者是不在實體金單那我們還是跟中國還是有正常的交易啊這沒有問題啊"},{"start":7856.767,"end":7879.942,"text":"對 我是說我們的 我們還是必須要就是說因為如果未來AI的產業在全球要蓬勃發展 不要泡沫化我相信就是說美國的高階跟就是在大陸的這樣低階的這個AI的相關的發展性都必須要並重那台灣才會在這個位置上面有最大的立即點嗎"},{"start":7880.742,"end":7904.754,"text":"我們的AI的產業發展才會有最大的利基點我認為經濟部必須要一言就是審慎的去考量這樣子的就是兩者的相關性好不好是 所以我剛才特別提到了如果它不在實體清單也不在管制項目範圍裡面那我們當然是樂觀其成這個本來就正常的貿易在進行當中好 謝謝"},{"start":7908.516,"end":7914.851,"text":"好 謝謝薛一鋒委員謝謝龔部長我們現在休息三分鐘不好意思剛剛也宣布了 不好意思"},{"start":8288.51,"end":8295.618,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 謝謝 請回座好接下來我們請賴立仁委員請做詢談 謝謝好 謝謝召委 請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":8310.609,"end":8320.484,"text":"部長我先請教一下這個第三屆經濟成長率衝到7.64這個很好的一個成績全年大到5%以上部長怎麼看"},{"start":8322.655,"end":8343.553,"text":"對啊 事實上在年中的時候我就覺得應該會有比較好的成績但是這個成績應該又比你預期的更高了對 因為AI的需求真的比想像中要大所以到年底前這個5%以上應該是沒有問題沒有問題可能還比想像中還要好甚至可能會更高"},{"start":8344.574,"end":8363.1,"text":"但是在這樣的狀況下我還是要提醒一點就是說其實是在AI的這些相關的包括出口的我還是要特別提醒在傳產的部分其實要特別要給予更多的支持跟重視啦部長要不要講一下對傳產這一塊我認為是要加強對他們的支持跟重視不然那個差距感會更加的強烈所以為什麼"},{"start":8364.72,"end":8383.878,"text":"院长一开始就只是我们的中小微企业的振兴发展方案所以连续两年各编的就是超过100亿来支持中小微企业那之后还有两个就是特别预算振兴特别预算我们也编了461那这些经费主要都是会用在"},{"start":8385.356,"end":8402.314,"text":"您提到的传统产业跟中小企业全部会用在这边那当然从它的资金面来支持不管是可以贷款可以展延的部分或雨天不收展甚至于增加贷款的这个信保的额度然后或者是利息的补贴"},{"start":8403.035,"end":8424.899,"text":"那其他另外有一个就是升级转型的协助所以每一家的这个企业好像这些政策都能够很务实落实下去让这些传统产业有感也不要在我们的极其高成长的状况下的时候对我们现在也组织了这个辅导团到北中南分区大家每一个都有他的这个责任范围"},{"start":8425.356,"end":8453.67,"text":"那希望在這個區域裡面的中小微企業還有傳統產業都可以受到這個升級轉型的這個支持跟輔導好 謝謝部長那進來我請教一下其實我們的這個科技產業園區其實老舊的廠房更新這個都很重要那包括前陣男子甚至於談子都有做了這些更新這個我全力都支持那我希望這三個特別是老舊的廠房這樣的更新的速度要持續來做部長這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":8455.211,"end":8473.996,"text":"沒問題吧沒有問題那前陣這一塊的他是把舊有的警察廳設改成財經大樓那616的經費在2029年會完成那我也希望一方面加速完成一方面加速完成之後我希望後面那個騰龍換兩條工作持續進行部長這個政策上應該是沒有問題嗎沒有問題"},{"start":8476.677,"end":8499.633,"text":"對就是說把舊的廳舍拆掉蓋新的之後那原來那個移走的那個廳舍繼續再蓋新的那再把其他再移進來再蓋新的一棟一棟換因為它都是50年的早期50年的一個園區了所以很多的舊大樓更新之後成為新的一個符合科技園區的大樓這個才是讓潛鎮園區包括男子園區包括男子園區一個風華再現最好的做法"},{"start":8500.673,"end":8520.031,"text":"這個部長會全力支持全力支持好 謝謝那再來我也請教一下男子的部分其實剛剛提到了錢證6.6億男子也編了13億不是 談子編了13億但男子這一塊還沒有進行他需要架構跟拆除這個老舊廠房來興建我也希望這個加速來進行"},{"start":8521.112,"end":8547.243,"text":"部長這個可以加速嗎這一個工程可以可以一個月內給我你們的規劃的報告好不好進度的報告因為他需要把土地是國有的土地是經濟部的但是上面的廠房老舊廠房架構之後然後重新來蓋新的一個產房一樣騰龍換鳥的方式我希望這個加速來進行好不好一個月內給我你們的一個規劃的報告是好的好謝謝那再來我請教了其實"},{"start":8549.551,"end":8571.113,"text":"台積電的部分台積電其實在我們的這個中科有落場1奈米的部分那當然2奈米現在在高雄男子也加速在進行那1奈米的部分其實在白浦園區也持續在爭取我也希望部長能夠持續來協助其實當然男科"},{"start":8571.713,"end":8587.415,"text":"包括高雄的百埔都是有機會的我也希望部長協助當我們電力水土地都準備好的時候我也希望鼓勵台積電一樣持續的往南邊走讓南邊能夠區域均衡發展的效果這個部長可不可以請你繼續支持"},{"start":8589.838,"end":8613.846,"text":"好跟台積電持續溝通進到白浦進到我們的高雄那再來我請教一下是用電的部分這個現在全台的用電其實環境的成本高雄跟雲林甚至台中都承擔的比較重的一些環境的成本那我認為其實對地方上面應該有公平的一些合理的對待所以"},{"start":8614.386,"end":8639.838,"text":"當然我希望能夠思考一下推動一個差異的電價就是說有些地方是蓋電廠不蓋的不蓋電廠的但有些地方是很為了國家的電力的需求在蓋電廠的那這樣電廠狀況下的時候其實應該思考了某些區域他付出了相當多的空污付出相當多的一些代價的時候那我們能不能再給予他電價上面給予合理的對待"},{"start":8640.598,"end":8658.581,"text":"那當然有些地方用電量高但是你卻沒有電廠你也不願付出的那差異電價這個部分部長這個考不考慮邦委員這改變比較大所以我們現在是用促銜金或回饋金的方式來"},{"start":8660.106,"end":8677.077,"text":"支持在地的這個民眾出血經跟回饋經如果有具體的成效的話就不會發生很多地方其實不要蓋就是整個電廠上的其實狀況是遇到這樣的問題的啦那我是希望是至少如果你用差別電價的時候比如說高雄發了很多的電"},{"start":8678.238,"end":8694.071,"text":"燃氣電廠一直在蓋這個雲林也在蓋台中也在蓋的時候那他覺得我有被照顧到我的電價可能比較便宜一點點因為你的電廠所以你有便宜了一點你心理上至少覺得政府有在重視我的感受那如果你本身用電量大你卻都沒有"},{"start":8694.831,"end":8721.773,"text":"也不願意蓋電廠的你的電價稍微高一點點有電廠也有一個好處現在尤其是算力或者是AI時代的來臨事實上它有極大的優勢很多好的不是啊那就必須要讓這些優勢很具體的呈現出來啊但是在很多時候我並沒有看到這樣的比如說輝達選擇輝達總部的選擇還是選擇在台北啊總部比較不需要電力但是它的算力中心它是跟但是我們要的是更好的產業的嘛"},{"start":8722.754,"end":8740.897,"text":"是 所以他的算力中心是在高雄啊部長 這樣的思維其實是有點問題的我要的不是那個我要的不是比較辛苦比較低薪在第一端第一線在做的我要的是高端的東西啊沒有 算力中心是很高端算力中心跟這個總部當然大家選擇要總部啊"},{"start":8742.299,"end":8764.221,"text":"誰會希望自己用的是一個高耗電高用電的椅子但沒錯都是好啦但是相較能選擇當然大家要的當然都是總部都是研發中心誰會希望自己的是算力中心這個像台積電製造廠他一定要在有電所以我希望這兩件事情同步要去思考同步請 不能同步思考"},{"start":8764.821,"end":8786.196,"text":"要不你要讓用電量發電量大的城市感受到政府在鼓勵的力道上是大的讓企業進去的力道是大的那這樣子當然就會覺得對我發的電多我是為我的儲備有更多電力讓更多產業進來那這樣就有感人民就會有感那如果沒辦法做到這一點的話那你的差別天價就要思考"},{"start":8786.536,"end":8812.439,"text":"你要讓真正為國家付出這麼多電的他有感受到我付出這麼多我有沒有得到政府的公平的思考我們再來講你看六都的電力裡面的自給率高雄是第一名 桃園第二台北是最低的 台北1.4%而已但是所有的總部所有的所有東西都是幾乎到台北去了這樣是嚴重的不公平包括在統籌分配款裡面我們看台北拿到了400多億台北拿到400多億 六都最多"},{"start":8813.34,"end":8841.625,"text":"中南部反對相對都是少的所以在這種失衡不公平的狀況下的時候一定要用各種方式讓人民感受到我們政府有在思考一個公平性的原則如果在電力上面的時候大家電力不斷的是中南部供應電力然後北部在做使用但是電價卻全部一樣那投資多數都集中在北部的時候那中南部鄉親的感受怎麼會好呢所以我希望要整體去思考我也希望差別電力的事情"},{"start":8842.466,"end":8862.689,"text":"經濟部跟台電要納入思考我當然知道這是一件很不容易的事情但是唯有思考的時候你們才會認真去對待這件事情才認真去思考著不應該讓國人民有一塊人是很認真積極的配合國家政策在發電但有一邊的人是我要用電我要招商但是我不要發電我希望這件事情經濟部長要審慎思考這件事情好不好"},{"start":8863.963,"end":8892.346,"text":"不過我們現在還是優先的趕快均衡台灣的相關的政策來推動部長剛剛你講的均衡台灣跟差別變價這兩件事情請你一個月給我一個評估報告好不好好給我評估意見好謝謝好接下來我們請召委楊群英召委質詢謝主席楊群英發言邀請工部長部長"},{"start":8899.733,"end":8899.995,"text":"照顧好"},{"start":8900.666,"end":8928.849,"text":"部長好 首先本席在跟你討論台電盤點核電的議題那我們對內是希望我們的產業發展對外我們更希望它比照等於是鞏固國安因為我們現在能源大概依賴進口的天然氣但是如果萬一有遭到封鎖的時候那這怎麼辦所以到目前為止在之前的郭部長"},{"start":8929.99,"end":8945.769,"text":"那政府也告訴我們說核電的部分呢是採開放式的一個態度開放式的態度到目前為止經濟部你的立場是不是也延續郭部長的開放式的這個態度呢"},{"start":8946.289,"end":8967.957,"text":"是是我们这是依法行政依规定来办还是开放性的这个态度因为合法已经修了嘛那我们就按照这个法来进行按照这个法来进行那现在台电呢在10月初也盘点好了送到你经济部那你经济部什么时候会合呢"},{"start":8969.837,"end":8976.021,"text":"什麼時候 為何在院長的總質詢的時候我們說一個月之內一個月之內是什麼時候呢"},{"start":8977.83,"end":9005.953,"text":"就是昨天是院長答詢嘛就一個月之內就是現在是11月嘛是12月初吧最晚現在是11月初所以你等於是12月初會核對就是核他的現況評估報告這一個部分對對對因為你沒有核定之後他才能夠有下一個動作才能夠去安檢嘛對對對那這個安檢要多久時間呢"},{"start":9008.457,"end":9029.926,"text":"台電的規劃是這樣就是說這個同意以後他們會啟動一個再運轉的計畫那這個再運轉計畫當然要送到河岸會那邊去然後也開始啟動它的自主的安全檢查然後這個檢查就要看本席非常清楚因為這個法也是本席所提出所以本席要請問那你們預計會多久時間"},{"start":9034.144,"end":9055.862,"text":"我刚才提到了这个现在11月初你说的12月初你们要核核才会有下一个动作你如果核可之后他们下一个动作大概会要多久时间下一个动作这个自主安全检查就要看那个跟西屋公司怎么样合作因为这个不是我们自己检查而已要国外的这个团队"},{"start":9056.702,"end":9080.189,"text":"當然嘛 因為我們有法可依所以你一定有你的KPI是不是請王總經理說一下你們如果他核了12月初的時候核你們預計會多久時間這個部分要牽涉到剛才部長提到的我們還要有所謂的跟其他的本期清楚 所以請問你的KPI到底"},{"start":9081.842,"end":9094.367,"text":"因為經濟部說啊也是開放性的態度嘛針對核電嘛那所以我們就要開始工作啦那你開始工作它核了12月初核你們預估會多久時間呢"},{"start":9095.7,"end":9112.428,"text":"我们现在只是评估有哪一些项目要去做测试至于说每一个项目测试的时间会有多长多短都是需要真正做下去以后才知道它的问题的不是真正做下去这个有世界的经验"},{"start":9113.829,"end":9135.152,"text":"那你們應該要設定KPI嘛 對不對你應該對啊 你要很誠實的來回答這個問題嘛因為大家既然是採開放性的態度那當然你們必須要將你們的流程 你的時間點要提出嘛還有就是說你的重點 你要檢核的重點是什麼"},{"start":9136.375,"end":9165.801,"text":"對 現在都有在準備都有在準備當中準備什麼 你的重點是什麼就是剛才部長提到的再運轉計畫還有就是那個自主安全檢查這兩個項目好 所以曾董事長也說核二呢因為它在這個北東電網它是最具供電的價值那核三呢它是比較符合這個安檢的條件那如果依照董事長所說部長你們是兩座一起"},{"start":9166.362,"end":9169.089,"text":"还是会折衣还是如何呢我们因为这个"},{"start":9173.795,"end":9202.337,"text":"启动的时间应该是会并行但是它的程序会不一样因为核二它有多一道手续你现在说的是核二跟核三启动一并来安检这个我们了解因为我们看到AI的算力它是发展要很大的电力这个大家都非常清楚所以因此美国 日本 韩国回答苹果 Google他们都是在发展"},{"start":9203.038,"end":9229.191,"text":"都在發展這樣的一個電力所以呢我們看到說重啟核能他是國安的關鍵喔因為剛才本席說了如果一旦遭到這個能源的一個遭到封鎖那這個是非常嚴肅嚴重的議題喔所以呢我們必須要將我們的能源生產跟保存的能力這個是非常的重要對不對那個部長"},{"start":9229.671,"end":9245.22,"text":"是 所以我們依法行政現在法已經給我們一些空間了好 所以我也希望今天我們聽到和二跟和三是要同步那我們也希望台電這個部門跟經濟部你們要去盤點"},{"start":9246.621,"end":9260.537,"text":"那你们要多久时间我们会继续在会议当中再继续讨论让国人可以安心下来谢谢接下来本席要跟你讨论今天的议题也就是修正本席所提案的公司法第235条之一"},{"start":9262.599,"end":9277.292,"text":"也就是民進公司分派員工的酬勞的定額比例不得低於同業平均的加薪比例以及我們目的要健全一個薪資分派的機制改善低薪的樣態"},{"start":9277.912,"end":9304.498,"text":"因為我們的薪資跟全世界來評比我們是低的那既然是認定是低的我們要怎麼樣去協助所有的員工所以本期提出235條之一公司法那同時也提出修正公司法第387條也就是配合實務需求將公司登記的代理人來增列記帳室那提升中小企業營運的效率我們也非常的清楚會計師對我們台灣的產業"},{"start":9307.759,"end":9334.822,"text":"他是非常的貢獻濟藏市對於台灣的產業也非常的貢獻所以兩者都非常的用心為我們台灣的產業來努力那我們也提出這樣的方向剛剛本席也聽到部長你的回答你認為在考試的方面必須要怎麼樣精進這是你剛剛的回答所以本席也希望你提出你的方案"},{"start":9335.202,"end":9361.718,"text":"提出你的方案因為台灣我們必須聯合合作去創造最大的利基去賺全世界人的錢所以我剛剛也聽到你的這個應對方案我也希望得到你所提出的這個方案要怎麼做最後一個本席修正能源管理法第7條這7條也就是設置能源儲存設備修正為能源這個"},{"start":9363.259,"end":9377.942,"text":"儲存能的一個設備我們希望在並往的電力穩定性跟供需平衡所以這個部分你們還在行政院是剛剛你的回答是說還要再兩個月他說兩個月之內兩個月之內這個能源法現在這麼的重要"},{"start":9388.55,"end":9415.046,"text":"因為那個是行政院我們沒有辦法幫行政院決定不過我們討論過好幾次應該已經成熟了所以我們預估他不會太久你不能這麼回答你沒有辦法替行政院決定而是本席要請問你既然你們認為這麼重要為什麼到現在還提不出來立法委員我們已經看到產業界的需求已經提出行政院到底什麼時候會送到"},{"start":9417.668,"end":9444.451,"text":"這個立法院來討論呢我們盡快跟行政院反映你的盡快是多快因為我們今天已經選答你盡快是多快剛剛署長說是不是給我們一兩個月的時間是 我們會跟行政院拜託他盡快因為我們這個去年預告我們有草案但是因為他牽涉到其他的意見還有他牽涉到電業法 再生能源法律"},{"start":9444.827,"end":9463.366,"text":"跟其他的所以我們可能還需要一些部長您聽到署長的回答去年已經預告去年到現在快多久時間因為他牽涉到好幾個不同他快多久時間所以腳步一定要提起因為本席在主持的時候我都認為我們必須要經過充分的討論"},{"start":9464.747,"end":9478.291,"text":"這個才能夠真正去制定一個好的方向出來讓產業界讓國人可以安心穩定這個能源所以你們的腳步務必要加強因為去年就已經預告了是不是"},{"start":9483.055,"end":9509.073,"text":"赶快加紧脚步去沟通赶快送到立法院来是不是所以最后一个议题本席要跟你讨论的也就是说目前为止我们看到9月10月的出口它是四季红但是我们看到电子支通的部分是占了72.4%所以我要跟你讨论的是传统中小企业所面临的困境现在订单已经启动"},{"start":9510.239,"end":9532.941,"text":"已經做三天 修四天做三天 修四天不然你知道這個要怎樣嗎一部分的企業的確是這樣的尤其我們的工具機手工具機械類別零組件 扣件工具機是比較不好但是機械業現在已經慢慢回穩了所以我們希望的就是說我們這些產業你要怎麼樣實際去幫助它"},{"start":9534.622,"end":9544.611,"text":"而不是你只有看到出口四季紅但是實際上台灣96%都是傳統的中小企業製造業又佔了90%在167家裡頭 對不對所以我們的製造業8.5萬多家那麼它幾乎佔了90%它的勞動力也在這裡啊我們要怎麼樣協助他們"},{"start":9558.664,"end":9581.284,"text":"我們要怎麼協助他們我們現在提出的方案你轉型我給你補助你再借款我給你利息對不對你現在這麼做可是可是部長我要跟你討論一個實際的問題不然看得到吃不得到我現在就已經沒有辦法貸款了我應該要先生存下來才是重點啊"},{"start":9582.245,"end":9610.934,"text":"是不是我應該要先生存下來啊所以針對於我們為國家這麼重大努力建設貢獻的傳統產業你是不是去考慮將現有的他們所貸款的你的利息怎麼樣協助他們你讓他們可以怎麼樣先存生存下來對不對因為沒有生存下來你會嚴重到我們所有的勞工啊你的就業率又會"},{"start":9612.852,"end":9635.125,"text":"这个又会有一个麻烦的事情产生啊是的对不对是的所以你去原意好不好让我们传统的中小企业尤其制造类别的它能够先生存下来能够先生存下来这才是重点嘛你把你的经济方案给本席我们一起来讨论好不好是的谢谢"},{"start":9647.533,"end":9649.869,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢問"},{"start":9673.1,"end":9683.866,"text":"好 主席在堂委員先進列席的政府金融市場官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部拱部長能源署李署長以及負稅署的林專門委員我們請三位 謝謝"},{"start":9693.065,"end":9721.094,"text":"莊委好部長好署長好專委好完善能源定義推廣深度節能我們輕能車要納入國產車的轉型補助先請教一下我們目前的能源法制推動深度節能包括看到了為了鼓勵節電所以能源管理法當中為了維護消費的權益如果飆受不實的節能加電會被罰會提高對不對是這樣嗎部長是ok好那我們經濟部預告了能管法當中把再生能源熱能納入這很好"},{"start":9721.876,"end":9749.607,"text":"這個熱能不只是蒸汽包括生殖能 氫能都可以用熱能的方式來使用是不是也要把它納入能管法部長 是不是這樣是的好 所以我們現在要等行政版本我們就要趕快的行政版本拿出來但是在此之前有個要請教往下一頁看台灣是不是成為全球少數具有自製氫能電巴的國家剛剛你們的邱署長我問了他這一題他在財政委員會我們看一下國產車有個氫能巴是已經上路了"},{"start":9750.134,"end":9770.778,"text":"而且中油也在高雄男子社的嘉青站那麼其他國家的氫能巴士我們台灣有競爭力我們的成本只要一半預估今年的氫能車的關鍵零組件的自製率可以提高7成5而且我們還引進了第一輛氫燃料電池的重型卡車部長是不是很期待我們台灣能夠充分運用這樣的新興能源"},{"start":9771.877,"end":9793.856,"text":"是的 是的好 那麼輕能比較特別那你覺得輕能車除了我們經濟部補助之外相關的貨物稅跟使用牌照稅是不是也要比照電動車可以免稅呢是 我支持這樣你支持那目前輕能車能不能比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅好像還要跟負稅組討論一下負稅組"},{"start":9797.444,"end":9822.329,"text":"我們要再演繹一下不對你們剛剛的部長啊我剛剛在財政委員會部長跟署長說對 輕能車現在就是比照電動車所以部長好好的去宣傳財政部已經親口說輕能車就是比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅部長應該開心一下吧你不要那麼緊張我們再確定一下你擔心剛剛部長跟署長是不是有騙了是不是"},{"start":9823.683,"end":9837.742,"text":"他們親口講的啊好往下看我們當然歡迎因為他是未來的對好往下看那麼氫能移動跟工業應用呢那既然財政部你都希望他免稅了那你經濟部自己的補助要不要提高啊"},{"start":9838.663,"end":9853.571,"text":"目前是1000萬嘛對 我們大概差不多好像補助一半嘛對 那你們要不要再提高一半因為現在的各自氫能車可能它的造價更貴囉報告委員因為我們現在補助的話大概不希望超過50%對 不要超過50%大概最高2000萬可不可以考慮如果它3000萬你可以補助到1500啊"},{"start":9858.437,"end":9874.83,"text":"最多50%對最多50%但是我們希望1000往上提好不好你要求別人慷慨都要求了自己說這麼小氣可以嗎對我們希望如果50%之下我們可以考慮好50%之下把最上限額提高到目標是2000萬好不好"},{"start":9877.096,"end":9904.819,"text":"怎麼這又不講話了呢免稅就很開心補助就在那邊因為我不曉得它那個每一部價錢不太一樣沒有錯啦但是就是不能超過50%但是上限如果超過2000萬我們上限把它提高嘛OK 好 謝謝好 國產車要轉型因為遇到了美國的關稅衝擊我們很多國產車的領土建廠我們希望把這些內容你們已經預留了1000億對不對是不是這樣"},{"start":9906.015,"end":9906.577,"text":"為了產業轉型嘛 約1000億國產輕能車能不能納入輔導方案"},{"start":9913.108,"end":9939.225,"text":"產業署邱署長在上面在財政委員會沒關係你會後問他我剛也問過了他也支持啦但是不要說我騙你你再問他好不好部長要支持啊產業署是支持的往下看你們不曉得你們今天已經被我分離真訊了我剛才財政委員會先問過兩個了因為財政部長 負稅署長問過你們邱協會署長那個青年車的國產化我們本來就會支持本來就會支持好那所以呢"},{"start":9940.392,"end":9960.377,"text":"時間也到了 所以今天剛剛我們的詢答你所承諾的日後都會成為呈堂證供那麼經濟部一定要勇於承擔 好不好好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員資深委員 謝謝"},{"start":9971.02,"end":9998.479,"text":"主席好首先有請我們龔部長我們再請龔部長這位好今天有一個法案就是要把記帳室納入公司法387條登記代理人是的那我不曉得部長的看法還是我們商業室的看法"},{"start":9999.873,"end":10018.931,"text":"對 因為我們是認為就是說如果要把季上市納進來的話因為有一些他們這個考試的這個專業領域可能要稍微擴充跟他的這個所執行的業務可以相襯那我們會跟這個考試院做比較好的溝通"},{"start":10020.622,"end":10044.442,"text":"讓這個程序比較完備的時候他才有辦法執行這樣的業務看起來 聽起來你不只將把記上市納入公司法387條登記代理人但是柏霖我告訴你我從立法委每一次每一屆都有人來拜託但是實在講有大有小"},{"start":10045.663,"end":10072.534,"text":"你怎麼知道中小企業、微企業它剛剛創立的時候找律師的費用特別的高都叫做找記帳室我們自己叫做技巧其實這些人就用幾十年這樣的訓練磨練也出了很多的人才我公司不大那個小記帳室是真的陪著公司上升的一個最主要的助力"},{"start":10074.195,"end":10085.031,"text":"大公司大律師大會計師你們就乖乖的其實那些記帳是對中小企業的幫忙是非常的大"},{"start":10085.987,"end":10109.184,"text":"我覺得他們觀點一定要分開你大的公司資本的到多少就給律師跟會計師其他記賬室在地方都是AO的不大不小但是現在已經訓練到記賬室的那個事務所也是人才聚集啊不要看穿他們啦那幾十年我們會左右為難"},{"start":10111.452,"end":10137.873,"text":"選舉一到的時候他也來拜託 他也來拜託我們也拜託他 他也拜託我們但是我跟你說記賬室比會計師 律師還要多人所以你們這個好好修改你們不敢面對如果你今天打這樣的話表示你不曉得中小企業成長的過程幾乎都是跟記賬室在一起的我希望你們好好考慮一下"},{"start":10139.422,"end":10154.12,"text":"市長 你的態度是怎麼樣市長 市長 市長 現在要改了對 我們剛剛已經講了沒有啦 你們要去想啦你們不可以看人家的表明那個計帳室確實幫中長那會計師律師的工會比較大你們就 工會就"},{"start":10158.083,"end":10170.56,"text":"那个报委员不是这样其实包括记账室跟会计师跟我们的互动跟对企业的协助我跟你讲的是实际情形所以我们其实是有很认真在考虑这个真的要考虑了"},{"start":10171.867,"end":10195.614,"text":"你要分牛大概你多少了因為他是陪著中小企業成長那些律師 會計師沒那麼怕命啦所以我們想說一定的考試他合格以後就可以辦理這樣的事好不好 你要趕快做講了幾十年了啦我每次左右為難啦嫌棄欠人家人情誰也不敢得罪但是我把事情講出來啦好不好 讓你們了解好 謝謝"},{"start":10198.963,"end":10225.438,"text":"國務部長 你當過國話會主委行政院秘書長 現在又經濟部長那我再問你一個問題 請教你一個問題川普當總統還能當習人我現在問你 你不要笑 這個問題很簡單 大家都曉得他們規定大概就是總共八年了 這個他們憲法上的規定你覺得他還有下一任嗎"},{"start":10226.687,"end":10242.011,"text":"因為他們規定就是八年不是八年 他已經做過一次美國的憲法做連續加起來八年你要改變美國的憲法所以他只能當一日除了修改美國的憲法對不對你真是八極 講到八年 大家三天你沒聽說過可以連續做八年"},{"start":10246.767,"end":10274.856,"text":"那我為什麼今天問你這個問題他總共一生當中他總共一生當中對對對 林郎公益社會你巴結的也很厲害不是不是不是 我剛才講諾貝爾獎你看總統都講說他要很多總統不是他都說要他拿諾貝爾獎你說他可以張八年另外一種拍馬屁的方式一流的沒有啦 他已經做過四年多現在五年他已經做過了所以他最多還只能再做三年而已啊"},{"start":10276.226,"end":10303.729,"text":"這次APEC在釜山中美的貿易戰你覺得如何 誰贏誰輸中美貿易戰 現在有短暫時間的和解但是它的根源還是存在它的根源存在 現在需不在歷年那我比較 因為你是台灣很重要的人士你覺得第三次世界大戰會不會爆發"},{"start":10307.829,"end":10336.21,"text":"不會啦我認為很有可能不會啦所以這次EPICA的會議是大豆跟稀土對著關稅跟晶片的大戰那這次的戰爭是非常慘烈只是短暫的休息那稀土的話對台灣的電子業影響有多大"},{"start":10338.326,"end":10352.045,"text":"要跟我說實話喔我為了不問你這個問題我特別打過喔那最主要就是磁鐵馬達那個部分影響比較大對台灣來講台灣用量很小都是買國外的對對對"},{"start":10355.189,"end":10367.904,"text":"這也不一定你經營製造也要他的製造端的部分他現在沒有在他這幾項的管制範圍裡面沒有製造端但是我跟你說我看到這樣"},{"start":10369.577,"end":10394.229,"text":"中美貿易戰從貿易 科技 軍事一直這樣延伸下來那台灣把中國大陸認為是一個境外敵對勢力萬一他不賣給西土給台灣你覺得會怎麼樣報告委員就像我們是間接這個我是判斷啦"},{"start":10395.871,"end":10423.852,"text":"真的對視得很厲害的話這種情形會產生啊你不要以為不可能啊所以目前為止我們是間接進口嘛大部分從日本跟歐洲還有這個美國來嘛那我們現在開始要自建我們的這個厲害喔如果依照資料你自建產業包括你要經程度最起碼要五年以上所以這一年休戰是大家都在準備啊"},{"start":10424.358,"end":10450.374,"text":"是 我们也尽快在准备所以明年也开始启动了我觉得啊自己准备的存量情况是非常不好台湾的电子业这边整个要是封锁起来我们真的要启动我们自己应该准备的一个方案在不过目前来讲半导体受的影响是还好是比较没有受到影响我觉得不怎么好我看了一个资料它还有一个工业战士"},{"start":10452.439,"end":10473.969,"text":"這個是台灣一定要用晶片的開始製造跟切割少了它就沒有辦法咱們不要自得其樂以為自己很強我告訴你還有現在那個APP已經結束了那台灣的對等關稅談了怎麼樣我還沒有新的訊息"},{"start":10477.371,"end":10500.634,"text":"談判的訊息還是在副院長跟談判辦公室那邊你當經濟部長都沒有訊息我有參與討論這是你經濟部最主要要去關心的問題你都沒有訊息不是那個談判的時間還是談判辦公室大概什麼時候談判能完成"},{"start":10501.397,"end":10520.619,"text":"大家都在等不然剛剛我們楊強威召委說傳統產業已經現在被折磨了實在沒有什麼訂單開始放無薪假你說AI伺服器這邊比較好這個未來的變化還不曉得最近的無薪假稍微下降了"},{"start":10521.239,"end":10533.885,"text":"我跟妳說我們都要注意一點其實台灣我是覺得搖來搖去比較有前途不要靠哪一邊隨時發生的狀況我們都不曉得我們也沒有辦法左右"},{"start":10534.798,"end":10550.527,"text":"我會說我們現在像是任人宰割的狀況你自己要了解這樣的狀況如果你讀過整篇看過的時候因為你現在都說得很清楚台灣很強建立台灣人信心其實在幾個產業裡面已經發生了"},{"start":10553.755,"end":10578.929,"text":"会有很大的变化台湾过去70年来都是一直在挑战的过程当中我们中小企业跟传统产业大家的协助之下一步一步都渡过这个难关所以我们还是我们希望能渡过难关但是这次真的会不一样一定要注意整个产业发展传统产业里面的精密产业一定不能放"},{"start":10579.509,"end":10599.472,"text":"这一点特别重要因为那是根基我一直你来拜访我也强调这一点电子业也很好但是那个是根基精密产业是根基一定要维持住尤其台中地带我们苗栗比较少都在那个地方一定要把他们保护好谢谢"},{"start":10603.373,"end":10609.682,"text":"非常感谢谢谢陈昭明委员谢谢龚部长接下来我们请郭国文委员请做询谈谢谢谢谢主席有请龚部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":10625.501,"end":10644.009,"text":"部長好 因為今天修改公司法的提案本席有提出一個閉鎖期的縮短根據公司法第165條閉鎖期高達兩個月但是經濟部對外的說法一直考量到業者 古代業者的問題卻沒有考量股東的權益"},{"start":10644.809,"end":10667.791,"text":"這些事情其實已經爭議許久但是經濟部一直說要檢討檢討 檢討十年還是在原地踏步從有公司化以來 這個爭議不斷更何況現階段臨時股東大會也好 常會也好有一個是兩個月 一個是一個月這個基本上都是在進行一個選務的工作為什麼一個月做起來 兩個月做不起來"},{"start":10668.431,"end":10684.705,"text":"更何況現在已經到數位化無紙化的一個階段電子化程度越來越高一個集保作業的話三天就可以確立股東名冊我不曉得為什麼經濟部還是採取一個抗拒的立場我們能不能請部長說明一下應該要面對這個問題應該改這個問題時間已經拖這麼久不應該停留在檢討階段部長請回答"},{"start":10689.46,"end":10708.805,"text":"是 謝委員的指導我們商業署因為這樣的議案也跟相關的這些公司或是對 你們就考量古代業者每次的理由就是古代是 他們就認為就是說這個時間讓他們可以你們要考慮到股東的權益這個時間從以前"},{"start":10711.926,"end":10729.493,"text":"股票證券在紙的時代就這樣子了到現在已經到無紙的時代數十年來如不一日都沒有做任何改變那個部長我講實在話你們基本上應該考慮到股東行動主義的這個必要性的情況底下要有一個備套的措施第一個"},{"start":10730.513,"end":10741.934,"text":"你們如果說對這個公司規模或公開的這個規模不一樣公開人數不一樣的話報委員是不是這樣就是說因為您提的這個十間二十間這個看起來是真的是不是允許我們跟"},{"start":10743.055,"end":10767.049,"text":"金管會或是我們討論一下剛剛我才跟金管會主委討論過他們也不反對縮短縮短可以縮短可以縮短啊天數可能我們再對嘛你們要講出來一個方式嘛而且其他國家也是基準的制度也是逐漸縮短就唯獨台灣還停留在原始的狀態對不對可以縮短朝廷縮短第二點我再問一下那個那個部長部長"},{"start":10768.75,"end":10796.014,"text":"這個昨天呢我在這個總質詢的時候就教育您的部分呢有關於能源轉型的2.0你已經提出2.0了ESG的部分也有一個2.0ESG的部分能源是放在第一個而且看到安全安全能源又跟安全有關係地緣策略又跟能源有關係然後你能源轉型的過昨天的當中我就一直跟你強調這個要有生殖能的一個思考結果您寫的這個能源轉型裡頭我沒有看到生殖能三個字耶"},{"start":10797.071,"end":10806.821,"text":"你還是停留在光電跟風電還有地熱地熱還有一大堆人在質疑耶我這不是要你思考什麼你要說多元思考結果真正能夠解決三個問題農民問題 環境問題 發電問題"},{"start":10810.851,"end":10826.763,"text":"叫生殖能而且可以迴避三生的一個衝突結果你們就沒有放在這裡頭難以理解這個示範計畫本來就有在推動沒有 我說你沒有放在這個能源轉型的重點嘛"},{"start":10828.329,"end":10846.546,"text":"那個文件的部分需要的時候你們要標榜出來說你們政策上有這一個目標啊明明有7GW的一個能量的空間為什麼不發展為什麼要發展那一種受到社會爭議跟衝突沒有問題"},{"start":10847.625,"end":10856.341,"text":"那個文件就是我們那個策略上的這個文件說明示範策略目標它基本上的特性就是一個穩定積載的電力來源"},{"start":10859.541,"end":10881.018,"text":"風電跟電 跟光電又不一樣風電跟光電有風才有電欸有光才有電欸這機載電力的來源這是最穩定的24小時就可以發電了你不用就很奇怪 難以理解嘛有啦 那我昨天也跟委員報告過現在我們給他的等多價格幾乎是最高的價格其次啦 重點你有沒有要發展的啊"},{"start":10881.979,"end":10897.596,"text":"有那么多可能性为什么不发展本席在提醒你这个我跟你讲这个最有potential的方式你不处理而且本席也创造出了一个模式上次也邀请了郭智慧部长去看明年一季要运转这明明可以扩大减少争议而且解决很多问题"},{"start":10898.854,"end":10921.011,"text":"部長麻煩你慎重思考一下好不好好把它列為主要的綠能發展的項目之一可以嗎好謝謝那另外一個部分那個部長下鄉說明這非常重要是我講實在話今天綠能太陽光天會落到這種地步老實說除了有人過度的渲染"},{"start":10921.852,"end":10943.365,"text":"刻意的造謠有關係但是本身我們在推動政策的時候也要檢討第一個有違法事件第二個太過於衝量所以造成翻車超車的結果我們要好好思考一下過度KPI的狀況就產生很多的問題最後主席我再最後一個問題還有一個部分這個業務可能你還不清楚在去年10月的時候本席就有去會看過"},{"start":10944.386,"end":10970.439,"text":"所屬地的這個台南標準基地它剛好在台南火車站的正對面那邊最黃金的地帶卻佔一個冷衙門這本來可以成為啊台南市的這個博物館的所在地你們也都同意了我也去協助國有財產署去找了結果呢你們不是說不同意這個不符合需要不然就說這地點有長波用 預算過高講到半天根本在拖嘛"},{"start":10971.721,"end":10979.691,"text":"要不要改嘛憑什麼一個雅門站了數十年那個台南的一個黃金地段就在火車站前面根本沒有那需要性啊"},{"start":10981.987,"end":11006.576,"text":"要不要請標準局說明一下謝謝委員我想標準局在台南分局我們有辦理當地還是有辦理業務的需求那去年委員這個建議以後其實我們有積極在配合文化部還有地方政務的規劃我想我們會積極來配合文化部跟地方政務的整體評估規劃那部長我要你一句話你同不同意搬遷"},{"start":11007.236,"end":11036.15,"text":"抱歉因為這個案子我的確我沒有瞭解我回去瞭解一下好不好瞭解一下啦其實對台南市太不公平了啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝郭國文委員郭國文委員敬禮謝謝謝謝來接下來我們請王美惠委員王美惠王美惠委員不在現場我們繼續請牛許廷委員請做巡檔"},{"start":11041.309,"end":11043.431,"text":"謝謝主席 這個勞動部經濟部有請我們請工部長跟勞動部"},{"start":11054.62,"end":11068.617,"text":"你好部長官今天本席提公司法跟商業登記法的修正這個內容部長了解嗎我知道我們希望提升一下這個各界的勞動意識因為這個台灣"},{"start":11071.5,"end":11090.675,"text":"八十幾萬家的公司登記其中相對小一人可以成立的有限公司就佔了六十幾萬家那現有商業這個行號等等登記的家數總共是九十九萬五千多家啦那其實絕大多數都是所謂的微型企業嘛那微型企業實務上在運作的時候常常出現"},{"start":11091.676,"end":11115.635,"text":"因為開設的門檻很低 速度很快這個三五個人就可以上路但相對來講在這個前期的準備過程中他除了硬性要件 資本啊 基本人力等等之外好像也就沒有其他的他其實衍生出了很多後續的勞動爭議嘛也就是這個老闆不見得很了解勞基法規範的內容後來就跟自己僱用的員工產生了各式各樣的一個摩擦這部長了解這個事嗎"},{"start":11117.112,"end":11139.597,"text":"我知道委員的提議的內涵就很多人這是一個過去的習慣嘛就是說當初大家這個黑手變老闆對不對變投家那很多時候是大家講好就好啦對不對以和為貴這當然是一種社會氛圍但是實際上勞動的法規一直在前進一直在進步那事實上這個這個中央社啊"},{"start":11140.157,"end":11163.327,"text":"去年8月勞基法40週年的報導裡面其實也寫了很多嘛就是雇主不見得熟悉法規法規的宣導力量不足夠特別是針對中小企業的部分很多的勞資正義的調解實務現場中小企業組根本不清楚勞動法律然後或者是用過去的觀念來談這個事所以啊這個目前全國違反勞動基準法什麼沒有給付加班費超時加班這個全額工資"},{"start":11164.407,"end":11182.473,"text":"特休假出行紀錄等等都是好幾千件的這樣子一個勞資糾紛每一個勞資糾紛他都要走漫長的調解等等的一些流程那其實造成很大的這個社會的負擔甚至是司法資源的一些浪費所以大家都討論這件事情希望可以從根源解決這件事情根源是什麼根源是大家都要了解勞動法令嘛"},{"start":11182.953,"end":11203.383,"text":"所以本席就提了公司法跟商業登記法的這樣一個修正過去我們都只是宣導宣導那宣導的時候他不聽你怎麼辦呢 對不對所以有一些硬性要件本席的修法參考了就業服務法嘛我們現在就業服務法講說我如果要徵聘外勞 對不對所以我就要特別針對勞動法律去上是因為我們害怕侵犯了外籍移工的各式各樣的勞動權益嘛"},{"start":11204.824,"end":11231.361,"text":"然後變成是 欸 針對移工的時候他是有保障的 針對本國勞工沒有啊然後本國勞工的各式各樣的勞資爭議還是一直發生來 請問經濟部 勞動部對於這樣子的一個狀況有沒有什麼具體的解方跟想法 請我先跟委員報告齁目前我們的做法其實在公司設立的那個後面我們都會通知他我們會主動把那個主管機關編制的一些勞動權益的一些相關資料我們會提供網址讓他去查"},{"start":11232.506,"end":11252.772,"text":"那這個部分我覺得就是說因為這些勞動法規一直有一些新的那我們就會主動告訴那個新設立的公司要去留意這一塊所以就是所謂我剛講的宣導來經濟部如果我們今天要修正相關的一些法規你們見解是什麼不好意思對不起那個如果要修正相關的法規的話你們現在的見解是什麼"},{"start":11254.003,"end":11278.203,"text":"根文報告勞動部這邊做法過去其實我們有開會討論過確實我們也認為說新界雇主確實要了解相關法規但是因為我們確實沒有辦法我們的勞政機關沒有辦法觸及到新雇主所以我們後來有邀集到相關的部會還有地方政府來討論然後我們也經濟部這邊也協助我們就是只要有人登記都會把相關的這個訊息提供給他們"},{"start":11278.783,"end":11307.17,"text":"然後也包含了我們的一些依化的一些資料也包含了剛剛您說的課程的部分然後就是希望他們能夠就是登記的同時也去上這些課程這是目前的做法對 所以現在問題來了剛剛勞動部也講嘛說我勞政系統我不見得能夠管到雇主嘛因為你商業登記公司成立都是在經濟部的管轄範圍之內嘛那這個界面要來怎麼做整合所以我們才希望體育法來說你要開設公司之前我要有一定的比如說勞動的講習或者是你要有更強強比較強制的一些取得規範"},{"start":11307.87,"end":11336.365,"text":"那當然我知道站在經濟部的立場你會希望這個可能會增加登記公司的門檻嘛他可能會降低一定的效率他有一定的成本在這過程中本席要求我們可以接受一個折衷的方案可以有一個漸進式的方向但本席不接受的是我們就照宣導就好因為實務上來講宣導的狀況就是成效不彰嘛我就花一點點時間講一個故事啦這本席選區就有遇過啊微型企業做蛋糕的啊蛋糕因為他不知道要投保就業保險因為五人以下不用勞保嘛"},{"start":11336.445,"end":11363,"text":"但要保就業保險對不對勞基法明文規定他不知道勞工知道反過來他賠一大筆錢所以對於雇主來講不瞭解勞動法令不純然只是保障勞工啊某一些層面也是避免雇主一直被開罰嘛所以他其實是對於勞僱雙方都有保障你多瞭解總是好事嘛才不會踩到地雷所以我才希望說商天法院公司法裡面有做一些這樣的配套那我講你講說如果講說一定要講習會浪費很多時間你參考一下就業服務法的精神他叫線上講習嘛"},{"start":11364.02,"end":11379.627,"text":"線上把相關容易觸犯彩雷的熱點聽完做個簡單的測驗 通過了就通過了也不失為一個辦法嘛來經濟部現在你們對於這個法條的修正有沒有什麼特別的意見或者是方向 可以參考的剛剛委員報告齁其實剛剛就是勞動部的長官也有提到"},{"start":11380.808,"end":11401.227,"text":"沒有辦法觸及到這些新設立所以我們現在是會把新設立之後我主動我就是通知公司所在地或商業所在地的勞動主管機關那我們也會跟勞動部這邊只要拿到這個新設立的名單我們就直接去請勞動部那邊或者是我們這邊也可以來協助去接洽這些新設立的公司來上勞動講習的一個課程"},{"start":11402.748,"end":11422.158,"text":"我跟你講現在這樣子就越搞越複雜了嘛對不對這個我們要看等勞政機關的這個東西然後又要叫到地方政府踢來踢去就麻煩了啦部長有沒有更好的方案沒關係我們今天時間比較有限啦好不好明天可能要做法條討論的時候我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好你要提出具體的方案讓這個東西至少是往前進的這我也要再次提醒除了避免"},{"start":11422.458,"end":11451.926,"text":"他不是登記前的門檻跟條件希望他登記還是簡便但是登記完以後我們會讓他更多的information希望他去不管是線上上課也好或是等等一些我只擔心單純的提供information是不夠的啦因為他沒有一定的要件的時候他去看了就算了嘛或者是根本就沒看要不然現在不會有那麼多的糾紛我提醒你沒關係機制怎麼設定我們還有一點時間因為明天才要進到法條的討論我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好要提出具體的方案可以讓這個東西至少是往前進的可以嗎"},{"start":11453.441,"end":11467.466,"text":"好辛苦了谢谢好谢谢谢谢那我们也请主管机关单位方案明天我们讨论的时候再提出来来谢谢接下来我们请黄国昌委员请做寻答谢谢主席麻烦有请经济部部长台电总经理好我们请两位谢谢黄总经理"},{"start":11486.894,"end":11500.204,"text":"黃委員好兩位好 直接的關係 直接切入正題就之前我一直在追蹤一些相關的弊案 2020年的時候"},{"start":11501.158,"end":11518.821,"text":"我揭露我們那個時候可能是內機內控出現嚴重問題的大同公司搞了一堆狗皮倒灶的事情有貪污的有行賄的有圍標的有詐素得標的搞了半天那個是2020年那個時候就公開揭露了"},{"start":11519.779,"end":11538.6,"text":"拖了很久啦2024年台北地方法院做判決判決到現在還沒確定啦判決到現在還沒確定不過判決出來的結果大概貪污洗錢妨礙投票等等都已經一審被判有罪那也一直拖拖到2025年5月24號因為公共工程委員會"},{"start":11539.901,"end":11564.64,"text":"可能有一些程序他要進行判決還沒有確定但公共工程委員會該做的事情他也是做了就宣布他從今年5月24號接下來要停權三年那個時候大同公司遭工程會停權三年了以後他的電力事業群還特別發了重訊開了記者會說接下來可能沒有辦法再參與政府表案"},{"start":11566.089,"end":11592.669,"text":"那我們持續在追蹤發現大龍公司其實遭停權影響好像也不是很大他也是持續取得政府標案其中有兩件是台電的因為依照政府採購法的規定有特殊需求的時候經過上級機關核准那就雖然是停權了那還是繼續讓他用第一個問題是請教一下經濟部經濟部核准的特殊需要是什麼"},{"start":11594.253,"end":11616.194,"text":"因為這是上級機關許可所以這個不是台電的問題就是經濟部的問題你要了解一下是不是沒有關係因為時間的關係我不要占人家的時間部長跟總經理都看到了嘛把你們怎麼上簽的怎麼准的公文能夠回覆給我一個禮拜之內可以嗎"},{"start":11617.931,"end":11638.356,"text":"這個沒有問題啦原則上是這可以嗎這件的話我大概所知道的是如果因為最近的那個電機類的設備啊在全球大家都在搶啊所以設備的那個採購啊都有延宕所以呢所以停權也沒有關係劣跡斑斑的賞賞也沒有關係"},{"start":11639.212,"end":11664.883,"text":"其實這一件我確實情形我不知道但是如果是沒有關係所以我給你時間回去瞭解第二個第二個這個是有經過經濟部點頭的這個經濟部要說明你為什麼開了這個後門讓一個被停權三年的公司不用被停權這個我很狐疑第二件就更離譜了第二件事連報上級機關都沒有遵循"},{"start":11666.171,"end":11690.034,"text":"把上級機關沒有准許來看一下這個是採購機關是台電南部發電廠得標的廠商是大同股份有限公司高雄分公司那我看了以後我就覺得很無意大同公司都被停權了經濟部也沒有核准為什麼他還可以得標總經理知道嗎這個是上個月大概前兩個禮拜發生的事10月23號的標案"},{"start":11693.463,"end":11718.145,"text":"這個標案我所瞭解是這樣子啦它有些標案是延續性的就是等於是連續好幾年那101條款只是針對新的標案不能交貴這個如果是說已經是新的我可能去瞭解一下好 你們一樣回去瞭解一下這個要給大家一個答案啦不要讓大家誤會說好像明明被停權了"},{"start":11719.229,"end":11730.09,"text":"是關係特別好還幫他開後門甚至上級機關都沒有准許上級機關沒有准許這個我查過了跟下面這個標案不太一樣就連經濟部都不知道"},{"start":11731.384,"end":11751.252,"text":"那個總公司啊 遭到庭權分控是當然不能取得標外 這法律上面相一定的解釋啦你們回去查清楚了以後 用公文回覆給我這兩個是什麼狀況好不好第二個問題 排言率呢 我追了非常的久啦那當然這也不是 我也不曉得該怎麼講 這到底是誰的鍋"},{"start":11754.253,"end":11768.785,"text":"之前經濟部部長王美花一樣在備詢台上面做了很多保證說做了很多改革但是全體國人看到的是這家公司拿納稅的錢在虧然後錢全部進了民進黨權貴的口袋"},{"start":11770.928,"end":11796.388,"text":"那相關的司法訴訟 刑事責任的追究 那要追究陳啟玉他自己到底要怎麼面對那這個是他自己刑事責任的問題 那我關心的是從納稅人的角度 台研綠能一開始為了協助國家發展綠能 話講得很好聽 當地居民大家都支持結果搞了半天以後 發現不僅僅是破壞環境 破壞生態 還在胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11797.488,"end":11825.188,"text":"虧一虧納稅人的然後錢放到綠色權貴的口袋那下一個問題是這個事情現在要怎麼收尾因為我看財報我看財報到今年Q2的財報出來他的股東權益是負值股東權益是負值是什麼意思我相信部長應該很清楚部長看懂財報絕對沒有問題那股東權益是負值那這家公司要不要依公司法宣告破產請教部長"},{"start":11826.482,"end":11844.249,"text":"我可能要了解一下 我們國營是有人在嗎 還是怎麼樣來 列一下公司法第211條公司虧損達10收資本2分之1 董事會應該最後一次股東會報告 這沒問題但是公司的資產不足抵償所付的債務的時候 董事會應期宣告破產"},{"start":11845.27,"end":11871.325,"text":"那如果代表公司的董事違反前兩項的規定的話這個還有處罰的規定所以現在台研綠能現在的計畫是什麼錢要繼續丟下去要辦增資嗎報委我想我們也一併好不好因為本來就要提供剛剛那個兩個案子這個案子到底要怎麼走因為大家很關心嘛因為第一個我們是法治國家嘛特別這個是范工股的公司現在搞到"},{"start":11872.245,"end":11899.29,"text":"已經資產沒有辦法處理負債了那有沒有要依法宣告破產還是說沒有要依法宣告破產打算要繼續投錢下去這個事情我相信台灣社會大眾很關心啊國會也應該監督這個部分到底要怎麼走一併書面回覆可以嗎好的好的好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":11909.291,"end":11924.599,"text":"謝謝主席 請經濟部的部長跟勞動部的王副師長好 我們請兩位勞動部議員好部長"},{"start":11926.334,"end":11953.087,"text":"在9月26日的時候你的腿可以嗎你那裡有一個高架椅沒關係你可以坐高架椅不會不會好OK請繼續在9月26日的最低工資審議會已經提出來了最低工資現在調整為29500元那請問一下部長您的態度是不是對此次的調漲基本工資有疑義呢"},{"start":11954.124,"end":11966.097,"text":"沒有 我們支持後來跨部會也都好 支持那支持的話本席就要請教部長那你要對這個調漲這個基本工資沒有意見但是現在因為對等關稅的衝擊你現在用齊頭式的這個調漲這個基本工資的話對產業的受到這個關稅的衝擊的並沒有辦法去彌補他們"},{"start":11975.768,"end":12004.761,"text":"那这方面的话我们是不是可以比照疫情当下我们的补贴方式或者把它扩大这整个额度还有就是说什么时候可以公告哪些产业可以纳入申请报告委员因为最低公司是明年才开始才开始实施那先规划对所以我们还有一点时间可以跟劳动部讨论劳动部讨论那你什么时候会提出来公布呢大概预计"},{"start":12005.957,"end":12030.605,"text":"導動部 跟委員報告我們目前跟這個你規劃會什麼時間出爐呢我們跟這個目前跟這個產發署正在就是研議這個相關的一些作業所以你們會補助嗎 對會不會補助 會補助的話就是討論的就是說可以比照疫情或更擴大這個方式你現在討論現在是11月那你什麼時候會把這個討論的方案規劃出來"},{"start":12033.246,"end":12058.989,"text":"我們目前跟經濟部這邊的討論呢因為我們那個最低工資的這個就是新調整的這個這個方案是明年1月1號開始實施所以還有不到兩個月的時間嗎那你什麼時候出爐還沒把定出來嗎這麼緊迫欸你剛剛講了1月份就要執行了是因為我們現在目前跟這個就是產發署這邊我們就這兩個月就是你沒有時間表給我嗎"},{"start":12060.029,"end":12076.522,"text":"要多久時間對所以我們會盡快來處理一個月好不好一個月你把這個所有如何規劃什麼時候可以開始執行然後哪些產業可以納入這個補貼的這個方案一個月一個月給我好嗎"},{"start":12079.38,"end":12102.403,"text":"可以啦好那就一個月一定要公佈出哪些產業可以正式來納入那討論到這個基本工資它補貼的金額啦或者是補貼方式都要更加的明確那第二個本期想討論的就是今天的公私法這足跡總出他們的統計裡面就是說我們公私法的"},{"start":12105.927,"end":12123.064,"text":"23535之一条的第二条里面特别有提到就是说如果公司有盈余获利的时候我们分配员工的酬劳的比例跟定额这个方面的话不能低于同业平均的加薪比例这个方案"},{"start":12123.644,"end":12149.028,"text":"那尤其是現在在實施這個改善的這個低薪的環境來提高我們國人產業競爭力這是非常有需要的但是在以公司法執行的當下能不能分配這個員工的酬勞還要看董事會三分之二人出席二分之一的人同意所以在這個情況之下會不會變成一個空談它如果不發下去怎麼辦"},{"start":12151.881,"end":12171.466,"text":"現在上市櫃公司是有啦 已經有規定上市櫃有 就是非上市 沒有上市的他不發就不發嗎 股東會就否決掉咧不是 我們鼓勵薪資上漲 適用中小企業發展條例現在有一些稅務上的優惠跟鼓勵 希望可以加薪"},{"start":12172.666,"end":12195.606,"text":"並沒有訂出當然另外就是剛剛提到的最低工資每年都會調漲那現在已經連續10年都在調漲最低工資跟這個員工的酬勞有一樣嗎就是他的所得至少都是他的所得嘛但是你要訂出標準你要補助他們的話董事會要訂出到底幾%這幾%也沒有明確性耶"},{"start":12197.894,"end":12226.213,"text":"副市長因為現在提到的就是說同業的加薪比例同業的加薪比例這個範圍同業是大概是什麼樣的同業就是因為太空泛了所以我們公司把它就制定一個標準的一個模式一個制度出來你看你要給他們發的那個酬勞幾%也沒有明確性說你公司賺多少錢累計的話你賺了一千萬你發多少一億你發多少這個比例要出來不然的話"},{"start":12226.873,"end":12255.578,"text":"董事會就決定了 不發都可以了原來2351就有規定張誠要明訂他的一定的定額或是比率這對上市公司 那非上市公司呢非上市 原來現在公司法就有所有的公司是適用所以這個比率他在張誠要明訂那明訂的話其實他不能不執行怎麼樣明訂 定%還定會不會發嗎定%上去他就一定要發還是董事會決定嘛"},{"start":12256.7,"end":12284.491,"text":"趴數它章程我們現在是章程裡面就定它多少要去分派酬勞這個在現在公司發不發呢它一定要發對因為董事會它必須要去那對於非上市的呢我現在講的是非上市的我們這個公司法是上市跟非上市都是都是用對那因為有法則說如果說公司不發的話員工可以去告這個公司但是應該是沒有人會去告告了我工作可能也不保了"},{"start":12285.231,"end":12309.518,"text":"所以我们的制度要更加的明确好不好那经济部对这方面的话你们有做一个统计吗是说那个章程明定吗针对民间公司订定分派员工酬劳的比例跟定额经济部有没有做过统计我们那个在公司登记这边他们已经有一些来就修了我们现在应该是已经有达到九成以上的章程都已经有定了"},{"start":12310.174,"end":12331.74,"text":"是 所以都一定會發了只要有酬勞就一定會發它訂在上面它就一定要發是 好那因為本席會這樣子提的話就是因為我們看到公司有盈餘的時候或是勞工的這個低薪問題我們都一塊一塊要來解決這個途徑尤其是兩者沒有相對的很明顯的這個來對比的話公司的"},{"start":12332.6,"end":12350.207,"text":"分配員額的酬勞的比例跟訂的會失衡啦如果你沒有更明確的話他會失衡去那尤其是企業他可以自由訂定這個象徵的比例甚至你說他們章程一定會訂可是我們跟我們的反應說章程有的還是沒有"},{"start":12350.667,"end":12365.456,"text":"很明確的出來 所以我希望你們能夠嚴格去執行 去了解他們訂定的尤其是對非上市的公司才能讓我們董事會在決議當中不要否決掉 我不發了訂了也不發 董事會有這權利嗎"},{"start":12367.847,"end":12387.69,"text":"一定要發嘛所以員工都有這個爭議因為這資訊不夠公開透明員工不知道到底董事會開了我是發幾趴我是什麼時候會發員工都不知道是否可以說更明確說他一定要公告出來要不然的話員工的福利他們自己無法享受到可不可以"},{"start":12388.567,"end":12407.842,"text":"我們會再加強去而且這個法規面尤其是我們現在正在修那個公司法的修正草案我希望我們這個立法院來審議的時候我們可以讓我們的行政院趕快把這版本送進來好不好來保障我們員工的權益可以嗎你們還沒送進來吧"},{"start":12409.639,"end":12427.249,"text":"公司法沒有要修正的版本所以照原例嘛所以今天才會跟你討論啊這些都是問題啊在執行辦法你們要修的還是要去修嘛才能夠務實的去保障我們員工的權益好不好希望你們能夠送進來了謝謝"},{"start":12435.461,"end":12446.23,"text":"好 接下來我們請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷 洪孟楷委員我們再請林倩琦委員 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在場我們請蔡議員 請做巡檔謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部長我們請工部長"},{"start":12468.366,"end":12488.672,"text":"蔡委員好部長我看到我們經濟部今年的針對明年預算的一些計畫那其中有一個是叫做加速矽光子技術自主及促進產業鏈的一個成型那我們知道未來就要像台積電的先進封裝讓COAS事實上"},{"start":12489.592,"end":12507.311,"text":"就這個光通訊一直整合大概是接下來整個AI的半導體的下一個階段所以矽光子的一個技術一直整合怎麼把光跟電"},{"start":12509.252,"end":12533.731,"text":"變成一個傳輸傳導的一個功能所以大概這一塊是未來產業已經看到了產業的需求但是人才的需求似乎還沒有跟上所以我們這一次有一個說要促進產業鏈的成形中我們要強調的就是要有一個產官的一個演的一個合作那我想經濟部在這一塊你們未來要扮演怎樣的角色呢"},{"start":12534.944,"end":12547.159,"text":"包委員事實上我們現在剛剛提到的這個聯盟的部分我們就是怎麼樣透過這個工研院來協助這個Semi它成立西光石聯盟對"},{"start":12548.697,"end":12563.485,"text":"然後技術端來講的話就是開發出這個高速矽光石的關鍵技術尤其是在矽光的晶片還有這個封裝的基板的部分也推動這個整個實驗室藉由我們有一個Aplus計畫來協助廠商開發"},{"start":12566.086,"end":12593.147,"text":"那人才的部分國科會他會負責整個學界人才培養大概200人那我們藉由這個法輪計轉培養人才那學的部分還有學校的部分中正大學或者是其他學校也希望開闊這個我知道我們中正大學正在努力在爭取因為目前大概研究單位都是在公園院大學端這一塊大概是未來需要補足的所以中正大學現在已經有高度的"},{"start":12594.228,"end":12615.106,"text":"努力中正在籌劃說他們也希望可以把這個矽光子未來從微學程到這個畢業學位學程甚至未來朝向整個學院的一個推展那我想這部分經濟部未來可不可以在關鍵的一些專案中然後來支持中正大學往這樣來努力"},{"start":12615.726,"end":12625.99,"text":"可以啦好那所以這部分來拜託部長我想未來我可能會跟中分大學我們會找教育部找國科會那經濟部這邊也可以來技術師這邊適度的給我們這個大力的幫忙這樣好嗎是的"},{"start":12632.284,"end":12643.459,"text":"那第二個我想要跟部長聊一下這個當然跟台電是不是台電今天總經理有到那我想要請教一下就是說因為這一次丹納斯風災請總經理好"},{"start":12647.399,"end":12671.472,"text":"這個丹納斯風災那大概我們嘉義這裡大概是電線感這個倒的是非常的多所以大概這一次可以看出了所謂這個電纜的韌性中這個電線感的地下化是一個很關鍵的一個一個要推動的那我想要請教我們王總這邊那我們這個電感的地下化目前台電怎麼規劃呢台電在嘉義這個地方"},{"start":12676.277,"end":12701.45,"text":"已经有做初步的规划了第一个这个规划已经报到经济部这边了那经济部正在核准当中那至于说整个的细部规划我们还是同步在进行就是针对变电所出口那个比较重要的那些亏限那我们现在先进行那个做下地的设计的这个阶段那正在进行当中"},{"start":12702.499,"end":12723.371,"text":"有正在推動像一些主要幹線像台17線台19線這些主要的一個幹線以及一些關鍵的基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施比方我們事實上我在地方也有跟我們這個南區處的處長討論比方說像公所地方公所的周邊"},{"start":12724.372,"end":12751.105,"text":"我們知道說每一個鄉鎮公所就是它的一個行政的中心它遇到災難的時候它也是一個防災的一個指揮中心所以如果公所周邊可以讓它電纜地下的話可以確保說機械在公所酒瓶這裡的單位它可能會有護證可能會有一些清潔隊機械在周邊這邊可以讓它的電纜的韌性相對的比較強韌這件事情應該也是都"},{"start":12752.273,"end":12775.725,"text":"是 没有错 跟委员报告就是说以嘉义地区来讲设计的理念 如您提到的把一些比较重要的单位 机关机关的周边 周边这边可以优先来推动让它地下化所以这个我认为是很重要那因为这一次是特别预算所以特别预算基本上我觉得"},{"start":12776.673,"end":12798.543,"text":"原本啦原本我感覺應該要再多一點如果你說嘉義這邊要推動因為丹納斯我們跟台南是最大的受災戶可是後來看起來是這個周少增多了啦大家比較多人都要進來分配這個預算所以事實上可以做的相對少很多所以我會覺得說"},{"start":12800.024,"end":12806.809,"text":"這部分可能中間 叫中間先走然後這個讓人民才會馬上有感這樣好不好是 因為"},{"start":12808.017,"end":12834.816,"text":"台电真正做地下化的经费才80亿那80亿分配到各个县当然相对于大家是少很多当然是嘉义跟台南是因为重灾区是重点地区所以是相对比较多一点只是因为经费确实有限这我可以理解还是没有办法满足各县区的需求比方说我们现在台61县在布袋新闻那里正在做这个闸道"},{"start":12835.656,"end":12854.584,"text":"台61線的閘道事實上它就會涉及到它地面下的道路也會更新那我認為說在地面道路更新的時候就要搭配電纜地下化這樣的話你們可以省下很多路修費所以這個閘道的一個更新大概在這兩三個禮拜它就會發佈"},{"start":12857.225,"end":12881.354,"text":"所以我覺得這個你們可以去對接一下 跟高工局對接一下說他要不然他們的路開始要修理得對 你們這兩大對的地下化氣 你們的價錢很多錢啦這部分我再回去我們嘉義區處處長說一下 我相信他也會接受啦 我還是要提醒因為有一些重大的陸修工程 事實上台電大對的 這樣你們可以比較省錢"},{"start":12883.268,"end":12884.37,"text":"好那謝謝台電那也謝謝我們經濟部好感謝"},{"start":12891.687,"end":12903.611,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員委員的尋答謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來我們請賴世保委員不在現場請何欣淳委員不在現場請麥毓貞委員不在現場請劉建國委員不在現場請林楚英委員不在現場請蘇清泉委員不在現場"},{"start":12919.657,"end":12936.196,"text":"因為我們剛剛已經有說一開始已經有說我們今天的會議就到今天只有到巡打所以我們時間就巡打結束再休息接下來羅明財委員我們接下來葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在現場OK"},{"start":12938.599,"end":12962.722,"text":"好 那么我们登记发言的除不在现场之外其余均已发言完毕 询答结束那由委员邱志伟委员林黛华委员杨琼英委员所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复的部分请相关单位一周之内以书面答复并复职本会委员令要求期限者从期锁定"},{"start":12963.763,"end":12971.503,"text":"那本日议程讨论三案均已寻讨完毕所谓的法案明日继续进行审查谢谢大家现在休息谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2015f4e74a59b6721575289a78f60fae5372a46263f60850474277e4527d10aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:36:34 - 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主席謝謝 麻煩請林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":9.963,"end":37.345,"text":"部長好 外交是一體的外交是讓我們中華民國可以被世界看到所以不分黨派我們要共同支持外交但是面對到真正的問題我們也必須要看到問題面對問題才能解決問題不是一句說認知作戰可以帶過我覺得這是本席剛剛在幾個委員跟你質詢的時候你回答的會讓本席覺得是說那我們到底有沒有掌握確實的問題"},{"start":39.053,"end":61.329,"text":"CNN的這一個報導現在我也看到了我們之後有陳青陳青講是說其實不是真相翻轉還有好多的媒體也都寫說其實那一天很多的來賓有來你也有跟他們有碰面等等相關部分是不是是嗎對好那為什麼會出現這一篇新聞"},{"start":62.318,"end":72.986,"text":"我跟委員講CNN他沒有去查證嘛因為主辦單位都有貼文啊CNN沒有查證沒有查證那篇報導有幾位記者寫那篇報導有幾位記者寫你知道嗎幾位我是不知道他問過幾位或者是他們幾位那篇報導據名就有幾位記者他是幾個記者一起寫的報導他怎麼去編輯上去怎麼去變成一篇報導部長您先聽本席把問題問完"},{"start":91.477,"end":105.049,"text":"國會殿堂上外交部長公然講CNN的記者沒有查證就這則新聞報導沒有查證因為可以很明顯就查證了我們要確認的是說那四位記者裡面他們都具名的報導"},{"start":106.454,"end":129.584,"text":"據名的掛名嘛我們有去詢問這四位來確認是說你們到底怎麼會報導出來你們為什麼沒有查證那麼重要的事情中華民國不重要嗎台灣不重要嗎結果你CNN那麼國際媒體可以不查證然後報導一個猶如我們國格的新聞因為他不能查證這很嚴重啊所以問題在哪裡就他們疏失啊"},{"start":132.105,"end":138.831,"text":"他們疏失所以他們四個記者沒有人查證所以CNN就是完全疏失然後後面還有認知作戰因為是事實的問題這不是評價的問題還有認知作戰背後有一個認知作戰的集團所以認知作戰的集團把CNN給收買了被運用了但是就這個事情來講CNN收買了把這四個記者給收買了你不會過度推論不是就這個事實的認定"},{"start":157.549,"end":184.565,"text":"事實的認定明顯錯誤他沒有去查證可能是被設計了或怎麼樣事後也可以再澄清嘛 道歉嘛這四位記者被設計了那有沒有澄清道歉 目前還沒有其中這四位記者啦 本席看了他有掛資深的安全記者 國安記者甚至有一位記者叫Will他是CNN駐台北資深記者"},{"start":185.706,"end":209.677,"text":"那事發一個禮拜了他竟然住台北啊我們外交部有沒有請他來喝咖啡來聊一下我們有請同仁去要求澄清啊那有沒有問因為你竟然都敢在國會殿堂裡面公然講說CNN完全沒有查證報導一個子虛烏有的新聞那本席就要問是說我們後續的處理因為這很嚴重喔"},{"start":210.762,"end":224.167,"text":"部長 本席 有一說一這並不複雜啦 因為對 就是不複雜所以說你敢這樣子公開的指責CNN我是點出啦並且你也講了這四個記者他們沒有查證那其中一個記者就在台北啊那到目前為止我們要求他的什麼"},{"start":228.666,"end":232.59,"text":"我們的國傳司跟外媒記者都有在聯繫來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":244.144,"end":269.899,"text":"我本身就已經有表示說希望他們能夠針對錯誤的報導來澄清嘛因為這個包括像杜一景他把那個訊息的information flow把他弄出來之後就知道哪個環節被放大被扭曲本席如果說證實他們都沒有查證他們自己關在辦公室裡面隨便亂編文章然後有辱我們國格該提告要提告"},{"start":270.919,"end":293.905,"text":"因為這是一個很嚴重的事情但是我覺得現在比較比較危險的地方是可能有事情或者說他可能擴大但是部長在國會見堂裡面講的是說他們是完全子虛烏有他們是捏造的不是事實然後結果具名的記者因為我覺得您這樣講可能還會傷害到記者因為你本身有當過新聞局長所以你也很了解"},{"start":294.645,"end":305.836,"text":"可能對於記者的他的聲譽他的報導都有一定喔我覺得這樣子你搞不好會到這邊是CNN記者要來告外交部喔因為你剛講那句話給我10秒鐘來請這個報導說我在某個餐廳請客沒有人來嘛"},{"start":312.603,"end":338.644,"text":"可是這個餐廳就不是我請客他沒有講哪個餐廳所以這件事情Google就可以查到所以他去引用人說我因為這個做主人沒有人來賞光我很難過然後非常的有挫敗我就林佳龍在這裡你來問我就好啦我有告訴你他沒有訪問你去採測你的心情這個我覺得不應該但是你說完全把這篇報導講說他是一個"},{"start":340.626,"end":347.528,"text":"因為這編輯台可是整合豪奇格我覺得這一點真的是好來 我不是說CNN認知我是說我要說明喔不是我說CNN認知是背後在川習會跟APEC前後有一個集團包括很多其他媒體他們也在操作他們因為媒體他就報導他可能沒有去了解這個背景好來 那我再請教喔"},{"start":363.311,"end":367.812,"text":"國際的媒體我們看完了我們來看國內媒體那國內媒體 上報在10月10號也有一個新聞他直接我覺得寫得也很硬 也很重 也很危險講說賴清德國安團隊鬧國際笑話駐台使節關切 吳釗燮跟林佳龍不和認知作戰嗎"},{"start":388.393,"end":412.245,"text":"我們都有分工啊 國安會有國安的角色所以這篇報導可信度多高你說報導哪一點就是駐台使節都關切吳釗燮跟林佳龍不合啊然後國安團隊鬧國際笑話這是他們的這個有沒有查證沒有查證他也沒有查證對啊哇 那這樣我們的媒體現在在民進黨政府的督導之下"},{"start":416.437,"end":423.165,"text":"所有都可以沒有查證 然後寫了國安團隊鬧國際笑話那我們有沒有對上報有做提告"},{"start":424.141,"end":446.277,"text":"我跟委員報告有時候外媒的第一報導在我們國內擴大扭曲不是 我現在講的是10月10號上報的報導我是跟委員講我們有去把資訊流查出來之後有一些環節是國內的媒體去選擇性的去解釋甚至是扭曲把它放大"},{"start":447.017,"end":466.498,"text":"我們要知道媒體試讀我們沒有去說哪一個點就是這個問題而是說他的這個整個流程啊是背後有這個認知作戰的痕跡我們也需要了解媒體試讀讓讀到的人不會被現在有一些政治人物是建立在錯誤的訊息事實上在批評我們嘛"},{"start":467.679,"end":480.218,"text":"所以我們見不到我們想見的人嘛本席開宗明義就講我覺得到目前為止你這樣講如果全部都是推給認知作戰其實某種程度上才是對於我們外交辛苦的同仁的一個努力的抹煞"},{"start":481.601,"end":511.048,"text":"因為已經出現那麼多問題了本席再一次在外交官方委員會跟我們說外交同仁也來肯定因為我們過去也接觸過很多第一線優秀外交同仁但是如果說現在是上面的人互相的針鋒相對互相的針鋒之觸互相的在不和結果你大事化小小事化我席位報導出來了還在講說沒有這是認知作戰沒有這個是捏造國際也是捏造國內也是捏造那我們還要信什麼"},{"start":514.298,"end":527.87,"text":"那部長最後啦 抱歉一分鐘但是這個我也想說因為外交部長其實你的發言一言一行因為你畢竟是中華民國外交部你的黨派是什麼那都是黨派但是你的外交部可是"},{"start":529.147,"end":554.606,"text":"你也有提到最近社群媒體平台也有提到力挺我們某一位院內的委員他爭取更高的職位人民服務那上午被問到的時候你也講說政治不離開人性啊然後要力挺不能被惡意抹黑啊那請教你的情資比較多啊那現在我們林委員是被誰惡意抹黑"},{"start":556.141,"end":574.447,"text":"我覺得參政權也是人權嘛那他現在有資格去參與初選我們就是尊重制度嘛因為我是一個政治人物我並不是選務人員所以我自己對於不管是就像說如果紅委員"},{"start":575.707,"end":596.161,"text":"你有什麼委屈 或者是什麼樣 我也是會覺得為你加油啊我一定在這邊義正嚴實 加油嘛 大家等你講啦 你說力挺人家不要被惡意抹黑啊那我想請教一下 那一定是我說不管你是善意的批評或惡意的抹黑其實我們政治人物都承擔很大的壓力所以現在林委員有沒有被惡意抹黑"},{"start":596.704,"end":608.997,"text":"我覺得讓他說話嘛因為這兩兆併成不能只是片面之詞而在他說話之前都是另外一邊的話那今天他要說話我們要保障他說話的權利不管你同不同意他說話的內容"},{"start":610.073,"end":635.455,"text":"這是我一生為民主奮鬥我從學生時代我就對於人權啊我對於每一個人啊都有就是說為他自己為社會去發聲的權利我覺得這個很重要部長這是你言論自由本席尊重我也不干涉因為這是你言論自由但本席真的只提醒你現在的工作一定是先國家再黨派一個人所以既然是國家服務的官司外交部部長"},{"start":637.897,"end":657.239,"text":"就是要對得起外交部長的責任那還有真的不是一句話認知作戰啦真的面對問題解決問題才能夠真真正正的幫中華民國走出來我一定會把外交部長做好那我也是一個人除了做官做事也要會做人"}]}},{"id":"17009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17009","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d16bff821a9cb407dac003cba48680cf883051bafb051454ba19d4cd10f7ba0585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長、國家安全局局長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表報告「川普亞洲行及『川習會』後印太區域經濟、安全情勢對我之影響」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-05T08:36:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T11:56:00+08:00","duration":11965,"影片長度":"03:19:25","委員發言時間":"08:36:35 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袁組長國際貿易署 雙邊二組 管培啟 管組長陸委會 沈友忠 沈副組委"},{"start":1775.14,"end":1799.065,"text":"綜合規劃處 陳淑媚 陳副處長經濟處 李碧仁 李副處長法政處 董玉雲 董副處長行政院經貿談判辦公室資深談判代表兼執行秘書 許崇清 許芷蜜談判代表 黃建章 黃代表"},{"start":1809.502,"end":1829.082,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部國家安全局經濟部大陸委員會還有行政院經貿談判辦公室報告川普亞洲行及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響並被質詢現在首先請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":1837.526,"end":1863.412,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部報告川普亞洲型及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響進行專題的報告並被質詢以下提出本會報告的摘要首先是川普亞洲型概況"},{"start":1864.708,"end":1886.741,"text":"川普總統在本年10月26日至30日訪問亞洲先後訪問了馬來西亞、日本及韓國訪韓期間除出席亞太經濟合作會議相關活動並與中國國家主席習近平舉行會談是川普重返白宮之後首度與習近平會面"},{"start":1887.461,"end":1903.397,"text":"那本部級駐美代表處持續與美方保持密切聯繫確保台美關係穩定深化以及我國的利益不受影響川普首先出訪馬來西亞那出於吉隆坡親自主持太簡和平協議簽署並與馬來西亞柬埔寨"},{"start":1907.13,"end":1932.92,"text":"泰國 越南等國分別達成了涵蓋貿易關鍵礦產以及能源的多項合作接著川普赴日與日本首相高士早苗進行元首峰會除簽署經貿及科技合作相關的協議會中雙方並重申維護台海和平的重要性以及反對片面以武力或脅迫改變現狀的企圖美國戰爭部長"},{"start":1938.464,"end":1950.4,"text":"也在會晤日本防衛大臣小泉進次郎時候特別強調美日同盟是嚇阻中國侵略的關鍵川普訪問韓國期間除出席APEC相關活動並與"},{"start":1952.877,"end":1964.994,"text":"總統李在明會晤強化美韓能源科技貿易議題的合作並建立美韓海事夥伴關係那麼以下就川習會的要請進行說明"},{"start":1967.597,"end":1985.748,"text":"那麼川普此行各界最關注的是最後與中國國家主席習近平的會晤川習會在韓國時間10月30日上午11時舉行地點是釜山金海國際機場的空軍基地美方與會人士包括美國駐中大使"},{"start":1986.488,"end":2003.166,"text":"David Perdue白宮國安顧問監國務卿Marco Rubio還有財政部長Scott Basson商務部長Howard Ratnick以及白宮幕僚長Susie Wells還有美國的貿易代表Jamison Greer"},{"start":2003.726,"end":2019.616,"text":"那中方出席的人員則有中央辦公廳的主任蔡奇國務院副總理何立峰外長王毅商務部長王文濤國家發展和改革委員會主任鄭三傑以及外交部的副部長馬朝旭"},{"start":2020.416,"end":2045.602,"text":"那麼有關各界關切川習會是否提到台灣議題川普在會後於空軍一號受訪時期強調從未提及那中國外交部會後發表的新聞聲明同樣也沒有提及台灣川習會實際會談歷時約八十分鐘那這個包括翻譯那中據目前掌握的資訊雙方討論主要聚焦確認由美國財長"},{"start":2047.242,"end":2063.781,"text":"Scott Basson以及中國國務院副總理何立峰前與馬來西亞談判時所達成的內容以及美中領導人將在明年互動互訪的規劃那麼就我方的觀察跟研析報告如下"},{"start":2064.542,"end":2077.137,"text":"首先川習會為觸及台灣美方展現對台的支持的穩定延續那麼針對外界原預期習近平將就台灣議題施壓憂慮台灣可能成為美中"},{"start":2078.42,"end":2095.694,"text":"貿易談判的籌碼我們在會前即看到美方高層明確傳達堅定立場例如白宮國安顧問兼國務卿Rubio10月25日公開表示美方不會為換取貿易協議而放棄對台支持貿易談判代表"},{"start":2096.807,"end":2119.107,"text":"Jameson Greer也特別的強調台灣完全不在美中貿易談判範圍內而川普本人在出訪期間也指出對台灣非常尊重並在被尋奇是否預期在台灣議題遭習近平施壓時呢明確的表態就是台灣is Taiwan台灣就是台灣而在APEC"},{"start":2119.938,"end":2140.854,"text":"企業的領袖峰會CEO Summit演說的時候川普並讚揚台灣在對美投資以及美國半導體的製造業的關鍵的貢獻而川習會之後川普總統出於當日返美途中受訪時就明確指出會中並未提起台灣也在11月2日"},{"start":2141.815,"end":2164.01,"text":"於播出的CBS60分鐘專訪中再次作詞表示而美國戰爭部長Haggis在東協擴大防長會議場邊會晤中國國防部長董軍時後也特別強調美方對於中國在南海、台海周邊以及對美國印太有盟國家行為的關切"},{"start":2164.929,"end":2185.722,"text":"那麼另外我們整體來看可以觀察到美方透過高層一致的議場與公開的言論展現對台支持的穩定延續藉由台美持續深化經濟與產業合作台灣的角色絕對不是所謂的談判籌碼而是美國重要的經貿夥伴另外川習會"},{"start":2187.023,"end":2210.084,"text":"前國會兩院多位跨黨派的議員也透過訪談公開致函和推文來發聲表達對台灣堅定支持強調美國對台承諾與長期一貫政策並呼籲不可將台灣納入任何貿易談判再次反映美國對台灣的支持是一個跨黨派的共識那麼就美方強化跟印太"},{"start":2210.785,"end":2235.285,"text":"盟友的經濟安全合作方面川普此行圍繞經濟安全與再工業化兩大主軸與各國的雙邊談判聚焦貿易 礦產 能源以及科技合作尤其重視強化稀土與關鍵礦物供應鏈的韌性另一方面川普此行也展現以實力達致和平的理念強化美日安全同盟以及軍事合作關係與韓國建立海軍"},{"start":2237.807,"end":2238.368,"text":"那麼最後呢"},{"start":2254.791,"end":2277.949,"text":"外交部未來也將持續深化與美國夥伴關係並密切的關注美中的互動台美之間互信友好 溝通管道暢通一直保持密切的聯絡那麼我們將持續在台美關係的良好基礎上善用美國擴大與盟友夥伴經貿合作的契機強化與川普政府在經貿 人工智慧"},{"start":2278.669,"end":2291.233,"text":"高科技以及關鍵礦物供應鏈等台美具有共同利益的領域的合作以其進一步提升台美關係自判大院各位委員予以支持並不吝指教 謝謝接下來請國安局張副局長上台報告"},{"start":2313.601,"end":2328.412,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行川普亞洲行及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響專題報告"},{"start":2330.438,"end":2356.154,"text":"美國總統川普10月26日至30日展開第二任期首次亞洲行訪問馬來西亞、日本、南韓出席東協APEC相關會議並與中日等國領導人舉行會談本局緊究整體情勢發展及對我影響向各位委員報告如次一、整體情勢發展"},{"start":2358.596,"end":2371.969,"text":"區域經濟情勢 跨為擴大亞洲國家對美採購投資川普訪問亞洲期間與馬來西亞、柬埔寨、泰國、越南、日本、南韓確認經貿協議內容在市場准入方面"},{"start":2375.532,"end":2394.5,"text":"泰國取消對美99%關稅障礙馬來西亞提供美國農工產品市場優惠柬埔寨則取消工業製品 食品關稅在投資採購方面日本 南韓 馬來西亞等國提出對美投資計畫並擴大採購美國農產品 飛機及能源"},{"start":2399.554,"end":2425.059,"text":"跨国二打造供应链韧性及新兴科技合作在供应链领域美国与马来西亚、泰国、日本签署矿产稀土合作文件强化关键矿产探勘开发、冶炼加工、稳定供应等合作并与日本成立关键矿产安全反应小组共同反制不公平贸易行为"},{"start":2425.839,"end":2453.325,"text":"在科技領域與日本、南韓簽署科技繁榮協定加強AI、量子運算、6G通訊、生技及航海合作川普透過強化產業與科技合作打造非紅供應鏈以反制中共運用非市場手段掌控關鍵礦產供應並確保美盟對中科技競逐優勢二、在區域安全形勢方面"},{"start":2455.493,"end":2478.168,"text":"啟動美日同盟新黃金時代川普10月28日與日本首相高士早苗會談強調美日系最強響同盟國高士表示其與美國共同實現自由開放印太並推動美日韓美日非美日奧運等多邊安全合作另外"},{"start":2478.948,"end":2505.085,"text":"美日外長及防長雙邊會談亦宣誓將強化自衛隊與駐日美軍指揮管制架構擴大日本南西諸島聯訓並推進共同延產飛彈美軍艦船在日本後勤為保其以美日同盟為軸心推展區域友盟集體防衛網絡擴增印太和平穩定二"},{"start":2506.257,"end":2533.14,"text":"增進美韓同盟現代化川普10月29日與南韓總統李在明會談確認將續磋商同盟現代化方向重申共為朝鮮半島和平穩定南韓承諾支持美國復興造團業增加國防支出加速發展軍工產業確保自主防衛能量美方更首度同意南韓發展核動力前進"},{"start":2534.686,"end":2543.113,"text":"強化對中共及北韓潛艦搜查追蹤能力提升美韓共同因應區域威脅能量"},{"start":2544.198,"end":2564.501,"text":"三 美中關係 管理爭議 維持對話川普與習近平10月30日在南韓會談 美方表示調降對中芬太尼關稅至10%暫緩徵收船舶港口費 中共則停止稀土出口管制一年"},{"start":2565.362,"end":2581.053,"text":"增加采购美国农产品 能源并与美方解决TikTok股权转让问题双方易商并援手外交其议程川普称将于明年4月访中习近平则其回访"},{"start":2582.093,"end":2597.433,"text":"二根本矛盾不易解决美中战略互移安全威胁科技竞争等结构性问题难解且竞相强化相关科技及原料自主能力降低相互依赖此外"},{"start":2598.561,"end":2616.195,"text":"美國關切中共在台海南海地區軍事活動及脅迫行為並將確保美盟在印太地區捍衛自身利益之能力看未來美中地緣戰略角力將持續升溫不易緩解二對我影響"},{"start":2617.489,"end":2638.865,"text":"一民主供應鏈協作逐漸形成川普亞洲行推動與區域國家在國防科技關鍵礦產能源安全等議題相關領域相互投資建構合作網絡一方面增加抗衡中共經濟脅迫籌碼另一方面確保民主有盟經濟韌性與安全"},{"start":2641.047,"end":2660.113,"text":"美國與區域國家關鍵產業合作有助我國結合AI智慧施政方向運用半導體先驅產業優勢與經驗推進與理念相近國家建構可信任之夥伴關係共建民主供應鏈及新興科技生態系二"},{"start":2661.328,"end":2683.564,"text":"美日安保加N 網絡加速建構美國強調與盟友共建以實力確保和平並以美日安保為軸心擴展與南韓 澳大利亞 菲律賓等印太盟友多邊安全協作除擴大聯演規模 強化聯戰效能外易加速軍備研製 強化國防產業合作"},{"start":2686.946,"end":2700.963,"text":"美国印太有盟强化防卫意识展现集体防卫能量将有助共同遏制中共破坏区域现状与印太稳定三台海核稳联动印太安全"},{"start":2702.352,"end":2727.09,"text":"日本首相高士與川普會談時強調台海和平穩定之重要性令高士與習近平會晤亦重申台海和穩對日本及國際社會至關重要此外10月27日馬來西亞召開之東亞峰會各國亦連續五年關切台海議題凸顯台海穩定影響印太國家整體利益"},{"start":2727.89,"end":2742.063,"text":"面對中共以武力脅迫片面挑戰區域現狀我國克制加大國防建設並強化與區域國家戰略溝通及合作共為印太及台海安全秩序三 結語"},{"start":2743.564,"end":2768.293,"text":"川普亚洲行及川习会牵动美国印太友盟对中关系互动影响区域经济与安全形势发展本局将去掌握美国印太战略及美中关系动向根据紧密与国际友盟情报交流合作机先掌握情势变化以支持政府安全决策及"},{"start":2770.173,"end":2780.597,"text":"應變規劃提升我國國家安全任性及能量以上報告敬請大院委員先進補令指導並持續對本局工作給予大力支持謝謝謝謝接下來請經濟部江次長進行報告主席"},{"start":2799.571,"end":2812.407,"text":"各位委員 大家好承蒙貴文會邀請就川普亞洲行及川習會後應待區域經濟安全情勢對我的影響進行報告經濟部就美中互動對區域經濟影響台灣供應鏈地位與國際連結"},{"start":2816.28,"end":2831.106,"text":"以及政府協助因應等三個部分二要說明敬請各位委員不吝賜教首先在美中互動與川普亞洲行對區域影響的部分114年10月底美中領袖在韓國釜山進行會談"},{"start":2833.188,"end":2862.641,"text":"在經貿議題取得初步共識美方宣布調降部分因為芬太尼加徵的關稅中方則允諾恢復採購美國黃豆暫緩稀土出口管制並管控芬太尼儘管這些動向為美中緊張關係帶來緩和和新競爭的態勢仍未改變川普這次的亞洲行也和東協國家像日韓等國的領導人會晤達成稀土在內的關鍵礦物供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2863.223,"end":2884.583,"text":"美國正以經濟安全為核心,強化印太佈局,確保美國在電動車、電池、半導體等原物料供應,降低對中國的依賴。我方對美中領袖會談密切關注,樂見任何能有助於確保區域安全穩定的努力,也認為透過領導人彼此溝通,降低單邊行為對區域帶來的可能衝擊。"},{"start":2887.463,"end":2906.338,"text":"持續為降低風險而努力是國際社會共同的期待第二部分,今年全球歷經美中角力、疫情、惡霧戰爭等風險美、歐、日等國考量國家安全以及韌性生產推動去風險化的策略,加速供應鏈重組"},{"start":2907.864,"end":2928.515,"text":"面對國際局勢的變動台廠基於就近服務客戶各國國安的需求進行供應鏈或生產基地多元化川普總統在首任總統任期內對中國科徵301關稅希望減少對中國的依賴那我國從108年起就推動投資台灣三大方案"},{"start":2928.995,"end":2955.781,"text":"鼓勵台商回流並協助台商拓展國際市場對貿易及投資移轉的效果顯著在貿易方面113年我國對美國的出口較108年倍增對東協的成長也有超過六成對歐洲的成長將近三成比較同期間的佔比113年我們對美的出口拉升到23.4%對中國大陸及香港下滑到31.7%"},{"start":2959.042,"end":2987.694,"text":"今年截至9月份則為28.8%以及27.5%至於在投資的方面美國連續兩年成為我們最大的投資地113年核准投資141.3億美元較108年成長24倍那同期間我們對東協歐洲也各成長2.5倍還有1.7倍對中國大陸則減少逾一成比較同期間的占比113年我對美投資占比"},{"start":2988.334,"end":3015.128,"text":"是29.1%中國則降至7.5%經濟部幫助有意願到海外市場發展的企業能夠順利的落地例如我們會提供目標市場的投資法令市場商機等資訊協助尋找合作夥伴另外我們也透過海外貿易投資中心的建立提供一站式的服務幫助有海外投資需求的台商排除投資的障礙"},{"start":3016.289,"end":3041.431,"text":"面對美國關稅還有國際局勢的變化經濟部主動跟各產業溝通並且保持聯繫擬定策略以務實的行動支持產業發展確保企業穩健經營首先在對美是要爭取合理的關稅台美彼此是重要的經貿戰略夥伴我們希望跟美方在科技等多元領域更緊密的合作至於台美談判的計長我方"},{"start":3042.785,"end":3064.166,"text":"談判團隊持續與美國貿易代表署還有商務部就貿易平衡以及供應鏈合作等議題磋商爭取降低佔行關稅20%且不疊加原MFN的稅率以及232多項關稅最優惠待遇總統在今年的10月23日公布了中央政府因應國際情勢"},{"start":3066.14,"end":3094.083,"text":"強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算其中經濟部投入了經費460億元來協助受影響的產業包括解決資金周轉困難提供研發轉型的補助以及補助業者海外新設展示中心服務中心及發貨倉庫等實體據點第三經濟部推動的產業政策會秉持立足台灣佈局全球及行銷全世界的原則"},{"start":3094.944,"end":3120.582,"text":"政府利用供应链的新布局加强台湾产业跟友盟合作因此经济部协助国内产业提升竞争力让台湾的人才技术完整的产业链成为国际企业愿意长期投资共同创新的基地包括辉达、超维、美光等大厂都来台寻求合作与我建立深厚的经贸与信赖关系"},{"start":3121.062,"end":3147.683,"text":"同時也帶來更多國際視野跟國際合作的商機鞏固台灣在全球供應鏈的關鍵地位政府會持續的掌握相關的情勢變化並加強與重要夥伴合作確保印太區域及台海的安全穩定經濟部也會做產業最堅實的後盾協助提升競爭力拓展市場預作多元應對準備以上報告進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3152.883,"end":3155.966,"text":"謝謝 其他部會機關報告請參閱書面資料想現在補充介紹 陳俊宇 陳委員羅美玲 羅委員"},{"start":3171.155,"end":3180.342,"text":"我們現在確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定"},{"start":3186.289,"end":3201.954,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果臨時提案請於10點30分以前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":3215.697,"end":3216.781,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我們先請佳榮部長請部長"},{"start":3223.851,"end":3246.126,"text":"部長早部長今年的FA峰會已經落幕了據傳在這次我們代表團從街機到大合照都受到打壓甚至有變本加厲的趨勢尤其在領袖峰會舉行的前夕有傳出韓方原本不願意派中央級的官員來"},{"start":3248.287,"end":3271.682,"text":"這個迎接我方的代表團但是在我們外交部團隊立即的協調努力之下成功化解這項危機那針對這次主辦方接機的這個事件我們事先是否已經推演到相關的這個情形而在這個事發的當下我們是如何應變處理的是否可以請部長說明一下報告委員因為這個事出突然在不到24小時間"},{"start":3274.164,"end":3283.641,"text":"24小時裡面我們必須要去改變對方的決定也就是我們代表團在10月27號出發的前夕那才得知說"},{"start":3285.806,"end":3303.155,"text":"韓方將不派中央政府官員前往接機那麼因為他們是透過APEC他們的資深官員跟我們表達那我們當然一方面就是表示這個嚴正的一個抗議"},{"start":3303.695,"end":3307.156,"text":"那並啟動危機處理所以透過我們駐韓代表處還有我們本部國主司甚至透過美處那麼全力的去溝通以外我們也協調有我的國家那表達這個堅定的立場那對方當然一開始有一些解釋因為我們不是這個所謂的國家的元首區我們就是領袖代表"},{"start":3330.326,"end":3332.407,"text":"應該平等待我這是APEC的規定而且後來又講說因為我們他們用地方政府其實也不只是只有我們因為有其他國家也有不非領袖本人到場那我想這個就是矮化我們所以我們在展開這個可以說是"},{"start":3349.21,"end":3366.604,"text":"維基總統員那最後呢透過接觸的管道那他們反而最後決議啊他們讓步而且指派APEC資深官員會議的主席這大使級的這個殷勝美這個主席呢親自從慶州清護府山金海國際機場來恭迎我們的領袖代表林信義執政"},{"start":3375.485,"end":3394.584,"text":"我們從這個事件我們現在來預測明年因為現在已經得知明年是中國主辦這之前我們也跟部長您討論過中國外交部昨天又聲稱如果要參與APEC會議關鍵在於要遵守一中原則"},{"start":3396.618,"end":3405.355,"text":"不只是對於明年底的領袖峰會我們政府每年出席的領域還有各層級的APEC會議共有150場"},{"start":3407.165,"end":3436.452,"text":"其中包括這個委員會還有工作小組資深官員會議部長會議等等如果參照近幾年的這個會議日程最快在今年的12月這個就會遇到第一次的這個工作層級的會議那我想請教部長中國對於讓我方平等參加所做出的書面保證是否有實質的效力那外交部又如何來確保我方代表在未來的一年在APEC會議的各項會議上都能夠平等"},{"start":3436.772,"end":3457.025,"text":"而且安全的參與是 報告委員事實上在去年秘魯召開APEC大會的時候中國想要申請就是2026年的APEC主辦國我們當時就表達關切一個是不能被矮化第二個就是要確保我們出席者的安全"},{"start":3457.785,"end":3480.828,"text":"因為中共也通過了所謂懲毒22條還有非常多的這個所謂的境外管轄跟跨境鎮壓那更何況到中國大陸去的時候那我們的出席者的安全如何獲得保障所以後來在各國都同意我們的嚴重的關切之下那逼使當時中國的這個APEC的資深官員魯梅"},{"start":3482.869,"end":3503.827,"text":"他代表發函給所有的會員承諾會平等待我而且確保我們的安全當然我們從去年今年到明年我們是可以說三年的時間尤其是我們國主司都密切的關注這個事情事實上如同委員講12月就會展開明年度的APEC的各層級各種的會議"},{"start":3507.253,"end":3525.305,"text":"那現在中共又講得那麼明白就是要有一中原則這個都是外加的 事實上我們在去年不但是爭取到平等參與的所謂中共的一個書面的承諾而是在各國建政之下如果白紙黑字他都可以違背那我想我們也會當然會強力的這個捍衛我們的權利也會這個"},{"start":3532.618,"end":3537.402,"text":"跟這個有我的國家一起來反制因為APEC強調的是共識覺"},{"start":3539.11,"end":3566.588,"text":"我們台灣不同意的話他很多聲明也不能夠通過所以這是為什麼我們去年就是很堅持就是已經預測到中共一旦申請到APEC的這個主辦國的時候他們可能會有小動作過去也一向如此事實上已經在去年之前都透過所謂的兩岸甚至是非正式甚至間接的管道在處理跟我們APEC的這個互動"},{"start":3567.328,"end":3588.965,"text":"那我們要求回到APEC的平台上這個是所有參加的這個經濟體都是平等的地位那現在又有一個安全上面的一個擔憂我想這個是我們會密切的關注並妥善的因應好 那這部分就請我們外交部積極的這個"},{"start":3590.366,"end":3604.672,"text":"關切啦因為明年的這個Apple我相信也是一個新的一個亮點那避免我們的權益受損是好那部長您先請回好謝謝我們再請那個省副主委請省副主委上台就備訊台謝謝"},{"start":3612.776,"end":3639.705,"text":"我想我們近期有看到媒體報導有學校表示政府雖然沒有明確的下令禁止兩岸的教育交流但是透過各種的方式進行阻礙譬如資料審查的時間變長或是審查的不確定性提高等等用緊縮規定和行政程序讓兩岸的教育交流碰軟釘子達到讓各校降低對"},{"start":3641.305,"end":3667.379,"text":"這個我們對岸這個私生交流的一個效果那我想如果能夠秉持這個對等的尊嚴健康有序的原則來交流政府應該是能夠正面來看待的但有關這個報導我們看到是否屬實那陸委會我們政策立場又是怎麼樣是不是請副主委大概說明一下是非常謝謝委員的指教那確實這邊報導出來的時候我們也有看到然後馬上就做了一個這個回應"},{"start":3668.619,"end":3691.835,"text":"事實上報導裡面的內容非常多不真實的這個地方我們用客觀的數字來證明事實上兩岸的這個文教交流並沒有因此而受到限縮比如說今年僅是1到9月份的時候在寒暑假的這個研修生因為這邊報導是針對研修生的部分那我們用數據來看1到9月份的時候我們已經核准了3046的中國的大陸的學生到台灣來進行短期的研修"},{"start":3692.895,"end":3719.361,"text":"這個數字已經是比2024年全年2296人足足增加了750人所以今年還沒有結束就已經比去年整年都來得多顯見就是兩岸的這個文教的交流來說的話事實上是沒有降溫的這個情況那大的這個原則來講我們還是堅持要去政治化去風險化文教交流就是文教交流所以政府還是會堅持健康有序然後並且鼓勵也支持兩岸的這個文教的這個部分來進行對等的交流"},{"start":3720.862,"end":3739.3,"text":"我們陸委會先前也有舉例中共拉攏我們台灣青年學生的七大手法其中包括學術交流 網紅特訓還有優惠門票 企業的實習等等可見他們相關的不斷推陳出新的手法很多"},{"start":3740.181,"end":3760.684,"text":"隨著我們兩岸之間的這個情勢變化確保學術交流的一個必要性統戰手法又越來越多也越來越難以看得出來那如何要來保障我們正常交流的一個自由又加以防範中國對台的這種各種滲透的手法還是要請我們陸委會隨時提出這個事情"},{"start":3761.505,"end":3779.411,"text":"因應我們相關的情形的發生也讓兩岸的互動能夠在一個平等互惠而且跟我們學生不要被滲透或是被拉攏的情況以上是不是請陸委會再持續關心"},{"start":3780.191,"end":3795.968,"text":"我們會基本上會做到一個揭露事實的這個揭露也就是說針對我們的學生到中國大陸去的風險或者是如果真的在交流完之後有特殊的這個現象的話那我們都會把這個訊息公開讓社會大眾知道那另外來講的話我們也會跟教育部一起來合作"},{"start":3796.608,"end":3820.898,"text":"盡量的就是讓學生在寒暑假的這個交流不是只有中國大陸可以去也有很多值得我們學生去交流的地方比如說可以到鄰近的日本韓國澳洲等等所以台灣是一個有全世界眼界的這個台灣那我們應該讓我們的孩子們可以讓大量的去擁抱全世界其他的這個民主國家來進行一個對等尊嚴的交流跟學習那麼中國大陸交流的話我們雖然也不排斥但是我們堅持的就是說要去政治化去風險化"},{"start":3821.818,"end":3831.291,"text":"然後把具有這種統戰疑慮的交流活動盡可能的揭露出來讓學校也知道讓孩子們也知道好 一定要好好保護我們的學子是好 以上謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3845.531,"end":3850.317,"text":"謝謝主席有請經貿辦許崇清資深代表請經貿辦談判代表委員好"},{"start":3858.477,"end":3864.239,"text":"是 代表好在川習會以前其實國人都非常的擔心怕台灣成為兩國談判的籌碼甚至會擔心台灣變成棄子結果一切都沒有發生台灣的議題完全沒有被提及很顯然的美中兩國都不想在經貿的談判當中增加變數甚至"},{"start":3883.085,"end":3897.648,"text":"會後川普曾經接受CBS的專訪的時候有提到說他也很驚訝習近平並沒有提到台灣的議題所以變成是說兩方其實在這方面是非常的節制那現在川習會已經結束了那是否川習會之後會不會影響到台美關稅的談判分析為什麼會這麼說因為之前我曾經看過一個報導"},{"start":3910.111,"end":3934.62,"text":"像之前我們一直都在說我們10月底以前這個台美的關稅會有一個定案會有一個結果可是現在已經11月了我們還沒有看到那也有媒體會猜測會就是說台美的這個美方是不是要川習會之後再來跟台灣做最後的這個談判然後代表您如何看這件事情會不會有影響"},{"start":3936.589,"end":3955.174,"text":"是向委員報告就是說我們台美的這個關稅談判那在九月底十月初第五輪實體磋商之後那事實上雙方其實是有再次進行視訊會議的所以談判其實是有進展的那目前台美雙方實際是在進行書面文件的交換然後跟討論"},{"start":3956.974,"end":3972.62,"text":"那針對未來的協議來先行凝聚共識那我們是預期APEC會議現在會議結束了嘛那雙方之後呢可以繼續的溝通那待雙方達成共識以後就可以進入總結的會商那達成台美貿易協議"},{"start":3973.331,"end":3999.501,"text":"那代表您認為說像台美的這個台美後續的這個談判會受到這個川習會的影響嗎這兩者之間會有任何的這個關聯嗎還是說其實我們的步驟都是照著正常的程序走只是大家所期待的10月底可能有結果現在是還沒看到到底什麼時候我們還有一個結果那媒體也有說可能我們會比照第一島鏈日韓我們的關稅可能會降到15%有沒有這個可能"},{"start":4001.64,"end":4021.068,"text":"像委員報告就是說就有關於10月底這個事情那這個之前行政部門已經有對外說明了因為APEC的會議的關係所以就是在10月底我們知道在APEC之後然後來做這個處理"},{"start":4023.149,"end":4049.839,"text":"所以這個跟中美談判的內容其實是無關其實就是因為剛好卡了個App在那裡所以是其成的關係跟內容是沒關係的是不是對 我們的步驟跟步調其實還是在持續的進行所以大約會什麼時候呢大概會什麼時候會有一個結果還在談判當中對 我們是在談判當中然後一有相關的結果我們都會適時的向國人報告"},{"start":4050.599,"end":4065.753,"text":"再來還有一點我想請教的就是232條款這個部分這個調查報告據說是在明年4月才會公佈美方到明年4月才會公佈我想請教一下對我國的半導體的產業衝擊到底有多大"},{"start":4067.195,"end":4087.571,"text":"像委員報告就是說所謂的4月公佈可能是指他那個232條款他規定的最晚期限270天那但是事實上我們觀察就是他那個只是最晚的期限他並沒有說那個是一個一定是要到那個時候才能公佈那他事實上可以可能可以提前那事實上"},{"start":4090.053,"end":4114.788,"text":"我們觀察就是說川普他這個政府他會依據他們自己的這個步調來來進行這個232調查的這個一個宣布那我們談判當中的時候有沒有在提有把232條款這部分給拉進來是我們在談判當中都是有在爭取就是說除了爭取調降對等關稅稅率然後不要疊加原來的MFN關稅稅率"},{"start":4117.97,"end":4145.302,"text":"我們232的多項的關稅又會待遇這個也是我們談判的主要目標那也是要為我們赴美投資的企業然後爭取更多有利的投資環境跟條件所以一切還在談判當中總結一句就是這樣那時間點目前還未知是這樣子嗎是OK好 來資深代表請回接下來我要邀請上來的是我們的經濟部江次長"},{"start":4154.375,"end":4159.22,"text":"我也好江市長好接下來我要講的就是稀土的議題中國佈局了40年讓它掌握了全球70%的開採權所以現在可以說是現階段是掐著高科技產業跟再生能源的主要的"},{"start":4175.435,"end":4184.104,"text":"這個命脈那本來在川習會前呢也是也是他中國也提出了就是說要要管制這個系統的這個出口可是後來川習會結束之後呢他說要暫停這個系統管制然後呢要購買這個美國的這個農產品等等我想這"},{"start":4195.276,"end":4210.09,"text":"當然這是一個他的談判的籌碼可是中國在10月9號對稀土出口發布所謂管制的消息之後雖然在"},{"start":4212.213,"end":4224.209,"text":"這個川習會當中目前是暫緩來實施可是我們會發現就是說反而喚醒了全世界的這個危機意識因為中國可能隨時就會拿管制這系統作為貿易談判的這個籌碼"},{"start":4227.714,"end":4252.924,"text":"所以我們也發現美國也好跟他的盟友其實都在重塑稀土供應鏈的這個決心那台灣也是那之前經濟部曾經就是說就算是說這個中國如果他發布了這個稀土管制的這個命令的話台灣短期不會受到這個重大的影響因為我們有很多這個供應鏈是來自於像美國、日本"},{"start":4253.664,"end":4271.924,"text":"可是我們的無人機、電動車跟高效馬達等等還是有存在一些風險所以之前我有看到經濟部長在提到就是說政府將加速建置回收再精煉產品的量能希望在2030年的時候能夠達到三分之一的需求我想請問一下就是說目前這個技術"},{"start":4273.585,"end":4297.056,"text":"這技術有開放給其他的產業嗎我們有在研發嗎還是說現在目前是一個怎麼樣的階段因為我們覺得就算是說稀土的目前暫時是休戰當中可是我們還是會覺得這個是有一些危機那台灣如何來應處的這個部分是 我分兩點跟委員做報告第一點"},{"start":4300.43,"end":4317.751,"text":"中國它對於稀土的管制除了在今年的十月份其實它在今年稍早四月份就有第一波所以我們一直是密切的關注相關的發展那這一次呢跟川習會之後他決定要暫緩一年的時間其實我們因為我們的半導體"},{"start":4319.172,"end":4346.739,"text":"所使用的稀土其實最主要不是來自於中國而是來自於歐美等地而且我們大部分都是半成品的進口所以這次的稀土的管制對我們的半導體的產業是影響是有限的但是呢在永磁馬達的永磁鐵的這個部分呢確實對於一些電動車馬達所需要的是有影響所以經濟部現在已經委託這個工研院"},{"start":4347.559,"end":4371.342,"text":"來做相關技術的回收同時我們的技術師也鼓勵了我們的業者能夠開發沒有使用這些用磁鐵的重磁鐵的這些馬達相關的研發的補助已經在進行所以我們也希望到2030年的時候我們可以自主供應的量大概達到三分之一以上說明"},{"start":4371.542,"end":4401.105,"text":"所以目前的話我們這個技術其實已經進到產業界了嗎還是目前只有還在工研院的部分工研院有在做研發同時我們也是跟業者共同國內一些生產重電的業者也一起進行所以已經在進行當中了因為我之前也看到就是日本日本其實它也有提到就是說它也為了前陣子很多年前曾經跟中國管制這個氣土出口所以日本為了想要有這個自主性"},{"start":4401.445,"end":4427.385,"text":"所以他們有研究新型的馬達也就是說可以不需要用到矽土的部分我們有在開發這部分的材料嗎有 我們有在研發委託工業跟業者一起共同研發因為我有看到日本方面是這麼做他說為了要擺脫依賴中國矽土的解放所以他們自己有去研發就是降低使用矽土的所謂的新型馬達所以台灣其實也在研發當中就對了我們已經進行了好 以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4431.765,"end":4438.727,"text":"謝謝羅敏玲委員的發言下一頁我們請馬文君委員來質詢謝主席麻煩請外交部林部長有請林部長還有陸委會副主委"},{"start":4461.707,"end":4483.564,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們就整個外交的這個我們現在進行的方式我們最近看到好像有很不斷的有人在暴露我們外交部拓展對外關係的困境這個顯然好像有意為之我們"},{"start":4484.545,"end":4506.943,"text":"在近日就是日本媒體的報導裡面愛沙尼亞雖然在2023年對外宣布就接受台灣在該國首都塔林設立代表處可是已經快兩年了日本媒體報導說他陷入僵局原因在於民稱的爭議我方希望沿用駐立陶宛的命名模式稱之為駐愛沙尼亞台灣代表處可是愛沙尼亞"},{"start":4512.907,"end":4526.897,"text":"堅持是用台北這個名稱那愛沙尼亞政府在日美查詢以後也表達截至目前為止我們尚未收到任何開設辦事處的申請就這個部分部長有沒有什麼樣的說明"},{"start":4529.094,"end":4542.495,"text":"謝謝委員愛沙尼亞是在今年大概四月的時候國會通過賦予法源所以事實上是半年前我們雙邊就展開諮商有關於涉處那目前是由拉脫維亞轄管"},{"start":4544.363,"end":4563.394,"text":"那對於我們的這個互設辦事處的地位名稱就在現在在諮商當中所以有開始那不是兩年了兩年是他們表達有這個意願就是在政府方面但要經過國會的"},{"start":4564.855,"end":4567.238,"text":"這個通過一個法源的基礎也超過半年因為如果說快兩年的時間我們現在不是在乎只在乎時間而是在我們主要在外國設立代表處尤其是沒有正式外交關係的國家我們"},{"start":4584.635,"end":4610.391,"text":"為了維繫非正式關係推動貿易投資還有促進文化交流以及提供領事服務這是我們主要的目的跟目標那就這個部分尤其部長上任一年多來一直以踏實外交希望跟理念相信國家或者可以合作的這些友邦可以促進互惠共榮深化夥伴關係來達到我們經濟日不落國這樣的一個願景"},{"start":4612.253,"end":4619.13,"text":"可是我們現在近期看到我們外交的就是應該算是一個亂象"},{"start":4620.819,"end":4625.721,"text":"有很多的有所謂的亂象部長你聽我講完拓展空間那是我們外交部本來已經在推動的相關的業務過去到現在都是一樣我們現在看到的愛沙尼亞這個設立代表處這個部分有人也顯然發布了新聞而且是日美"},{"start":4644.389,"end":4662.367,"text":"去發表的另外還有就是在不久之前政府跟加拿大已經達成貿易協議在僑近數個月後都沒有辦法簽署還有在日前外交部這個算我們有提出一些說明還有澄清可是"},{"start":4663.248,"end":4679.779,"text":"外交部在美國紐約高檔餐廳設宴然後邀請高層官員出席沒有一個人到場這個顯然都是有人在未消息或者不斷的刻意的披露所以外交部是不是有查查可能有認知作戰的成分"},{"start":4681.211,"end":4700.635,"text":"這個部分認知作戰我想要請教部長這個查查知情人士是部內人員還是特定的人在放消息打擊外交部跟部長或者真的像媒體評論的可能是川普總統跟習近平要在韓國舉行川習會後然後美國政府對賴總統所率領的行政團隊他的態度已經改變種種的因素部長您判斷是哪一個"},{"start":4710.854,"end":4726.648,"text":"我們當然判斷是有一波的認知作戰每個case的情形不太一樣但基本上要去認知作戰也有可能是我們國內自己製造的認知作戰嗎應該說這個比較新的發展是透過外媒然後到國內放大當然因為有錯誤我們就澄清"},{"start":4733.734,"end":4760.47,"text":"因為以我們關心的所謂台美關係並沒有如棄台論 以美論那個樣子去發展所以我們當然是代表台美關係是穩健發展那我們對於就是說這個資訊流啊怎麼樣我們去對這些錯假訊息加以重新分析我們是有發現有一些不正常的地方那是有勢力介入這個裡面涉及到的認知作戰但也不是說每一個"},{"start":4762.111,"end":4770.854,"text":"這個報導因為有些是可能誤會比如說像台灣跟加拿大的關係那加拿大駐台代表處就澄清了那至於說有關於愛沙尼亞這個那我們也加以說明確實如委員說我們現在在討論啊那個名稱啊或地位或各種的未來的豁免的"},{"start":4778.997,"end":4781.699,"text":"這個特權等等我們是開放的態度在談那個說明我們都有看過我們現在是在短期之內都是外銷轉內銷尤其都是外國的媒體不管CNN也好除非CNN是錯假訊息"},{"start":4794.785,"end":4801.371,"text":"那是他發布的這是美國的事實證明那是錯假訊息因為我就是在華府我就在美國啦我不要講華府是在紐約沒關係那個我們有看過你的反駁我現在說的是連續發出這樣子的一個消息不管他是錯假的也好故意打擊也好如果外交部在推展外交事務相關的業務我們內部的"},{"start":4820.247,"end":4842.077,"text":"剛剛我問的是是部內人員還是特定人士部長顯然沒有回答這個部分因為我們要知道的是有沒有掌握到底是誰在放這樣的消息打擊我們的外交所有的努力有一些是因為我們國內媒體引用外媒那我們有去追蹤這個資訊流就是說這個訊息是怎麼樣那外媒為什麼會暴露出來"},{"start":4842.637,"end":4868.119,"text":"那就他的來源管道嘛他的來源管道有沒有掌握因為一而再再而三的打擊我們有適當的掌握對部長也好對外交部也好有適當的掌握可以制止了嗎甚至遊說的團體我們也都有掌握遊說的團體是誰被是我們內部的人員去遊說的嗎或者放這個消息因為會有這樣子的訊息其實很明顯的是我們自己可能相關掌握的內部人員"},{"start":4871.141,"end":4875.969,"text":"所以這個部分我們在這裡提醒我們也都有在檢視會不會再發生"},{"start":4878.154,"end":4903.333,"text":"我們要假設它還會再發生我們能夠妥善的來因應所以您只能不斷不斷的反駁去說明那就媒體試圖喔我們也要讓國內外都了解啊沒關係 我們現在要講的是如果這是內部的而且是國內的而且是特定有心的人士在製造我們這樣外交的混亂或者為了藉由打擊外交部或部長"},{"start":4904.834,"end":4917.949,"text":"這樣子影響我們整個外交的一個推動這是不能接受的所以這個部分外交部不是只有一直反駁你必須要提出來如果這個消息你都已經有掌握要不要公布一下這看哪一件事情啊"},{"start":4921.192,"end":4929.364,"text":"委員指的是 因為就太多件了三件 要不然你三件都講嘛三件都掌握了嘛 三件都講掌握了是誰你包括遊說團體都掌握了是誰以CNN來講 因為"},{"start":4935.652,"end":4943.158,"text":"其實主辦單位都有報我在紐約啊也許有照片為什麼他會去引用然後經過一連串的發展變成我們請客沒人出席啊這個完全跟事實顛倒我要說的是你剛剛說已經掌握遊說的團體或者放話的人我現在說這個人是誰或這個遊說團體你應該要對外說明"},{"start":4959.827,"end":4988.2,"text":"就杜益錦就是他就有分析這個CNN然後透過國內的媒體的這個所謂的傳播的管道然後怎麼被放大然後最後變成真身殺人這個就是一個個案那我們就開始研究個案做跟國際當然也要去做解釋嘛因為要媒體試讀那有一些可能是是不是不小心去放大還是有些人是刻意去操作"},{"start":4989.14,"end":5002.331,"text":"我們當然會盡力不去把背後的原因找出來所以你覺得是刻意操作放大還是不小心有些是可能意識形態有些是可能這個刻意的都有"},{"start":5003.919,"end":5026.971,"text":"好模擬兩可喔如果是部長這樣的說法顯然你接下來還是要持續面對外交部也是如果是這樣外交如果受到這麼多的妨礙尤其是內部產生的那我認為其實我們的外交預算有些就被浪費掉了因為你在花錢的當下有很多刻意的阻撓就影響我們預算因為你花大錢"},{"start":5027.911,"end":5035.798,"text":"結果你的成果是不如預期或者還是被扭曲那我們在預算上面其實我覺得是浪費了尤其我們年年在增加的狀況之下外交部其實這個部分我們要的不是你剛剛大家聽不懂的這樣的說明我們要的是這個到底是為什麼是內鬥我們不能忍受的是內鬥的部分你外面的外在的因素就已經非常多了我簡單再請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":5056.583,"end":5082.369,"text":"APEC那個明年我們會不會參加是委員好明年APEC我們當然爭取參加一定是尋利來參加在維護國家尊嚴什麼樣的狀況會影響如果中方還是要刻意打壓譬如說他們昨天也有放話說要在一中原則的情況下但我們發現說一中原則其實不是我們APEC參加的一個過去的一個慣例所以有可能因為這樣我們就不參加"},{"start":5083.628,"end":5092.617,"text":"我們現在不能夠去做那個因為你必須要做一些沙盤推演在什麼樣的情況之下因為我們主要為了經濟發展這個當初設立的目的大家可以做很多的一個相關的一個交流那這個部分所以我們現在主要是要了解到明年因為畢竟是大陸主辦"},{"start":5106.65,"end":5121.875,"text":"那什麼樣的情況我們可以參加然後什麼樣的狀況之下我們可能不參加這個部分時間的關係提供書面資料給本委員會好不好最後再利用一點時間不好意思經貿談判辦公室還有經濟部抱歉跟主席接一點時間"},{"start":5128.365,"end":5141.268,"text":"是 委員好我想請教一下因為川普總統其實在整個亞洲情其實他也做了很多的宣示尤其之前也跟韓國都已經初步的一個他們的稅率的框架已經都已經差不多細節的談得差不多"},{"start":5148.81,"end":5156.772,"text":"那美國跟馬來西亞跟柬埔寨也已經簽訂了協定我想要請教經貿辦還有經濟部對於美國馬來西亞這兩個他們的協定有沒有研究我們在研究分析當中"},{"start":5168.346,"end":5195.243,"text":"當中對因為他的關稅表是比較晚才公佈的他協議是先簽可不可以說明一下現在研究當中大概有哪個部分跟台灣會有比較類似的部分有什麼看法從整體的架構來看那就是大概就是美國跟這些貿易夥伴在談的這些對等關稅協議呢他都分成幾個部分包括了關稅非關稅"},{"start":5197.504,"end":5198.986,"text":"我們大家都知道啦我們現在講的是對馬來西亞其實他馬來西亞他就是會有全面市場開放以及降為零關稅嘛對美的商品對不對"},{"start":5214.617,"end":5219.403,"text":"以及接受這個部分你們有掌握嗎其他國家你們都沒有掌握那你怎麼去談判比如說你在談判的時候你的優勢是什麼其他國家跟我們的競爭對手包括日韓包括其他東南亞國家如果你們都沒有辦法掌握他都已經透露出來只有台灣到現在還是黑箱"},{"start":5233.8,"end":5236.781,"text":"那你既然是黑箱你至少必須掌握其他國家他們在對美談判的過程當中他們有什麼樣的優劣勢這樣你去談的時候你才知道怎麼跟美國談啊是 像委員報告我們都有在關注美國跟各個國家關稅談判的情況包括您剛剛提到的馬來西亞或是柬埔寨然後我們也有關注到美國還有跟一些國家其實也都還在談判當中其實還沒有完成"},{"start":5259.028,"end":5264.491,"text":"他們已經簽協定了我現在講的是馬來西亞他全面市場開放以及降為零關稅然後接受美國的標準不管是汽車或者農產品的檢驗因為農產品對我們台灣來說其實是影響非常深遠尤其是他的檢驗標準不管是他的來租的這全面開放或者開放到什麼程度應該要接受什麼樣的檢驗如果我們全面開放的話對我們會有什麼影響這個有沒有掌握"},{"start":5288.524,"end":5304.392,"text":"我們台灣跟馬來西亞會有一樣嗎我們都有在掌握美國跟相關國家的談判的情況還有他們簽署的協議內容所以台灣呢現在已經五輪談判了我剛剛提到了馬來西亞的狀況台灣會不會一樣"},{"start":5308.188,"end":5315.952,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個進展的話就是我們目前在說的內容就是我們在爭取這個調降對等關稅然後及不疊加還有就是232的這個優惠待遇農產品檢驗講這個就好農產品檢驗"},{"start":5325.057,"end":5331.021,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個實際內容依照美國的標準嗎因為還在談判的進行當中所以這個就是鄭麗君副院長之前反福茂反黑箱他是非常大力的反對今天我們提到五輪了而且其他國家陸續都已經簽了詳細的就是他的協定到現在我們還沒有辦法對國人說"},{"start":5352.273,"end":5363.497,"text":"至少像農產品的影響或者像一些會造成的影響傳產我們現在每天新聞看到一家一家的倒到現在你們還沒有辦法講這個部分我覺得真的是台灣非常的悲哀這個部分還有經濟部也是在這裡美國對韓國半導體的稅率保證不會高於台灣對不對"},{"start":5378.073,"end":5404.049,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在我們根據白宮發布的事實文件並沒有就半導體的部分有做披露所以現在呢美韓之間還在就現在這是正式的嘛美韓美國已經很明確的表達他的稅率半導體的稅率不會高於台灣對不對那他們已經有詳細的結果大概詳細的內容已經有初步的結果了嗎"},{"start":5404.569,"end":5418.181,"text":"我們有在媒體上面有看到這樣報導但是我們有去查驗這個白宮發布的事實文件上面並沒有就這一點有具體的文字的說明他沒有說多少而已嘛他只說不會高於台灣這個訊息對不對"},{"start":5420.543,"end":5448.66,"text":"這個是韓方的媒體的報導但是在根據白宮發布的新聞並沒有韓方敢這樣講表示跟美國有一個初步的一個方案的結論嘛韓方才會這樣講不然美國沒講韓國怎麼敢自己講所以兩邊現在的話還在有各自在我現在要講的是我們的黑箱一直在持續今天如果美國跟韓國他們已經達到初步的協定"},{"start":5449.68,"end":5463.89,"text":"他們說不會高於台灣可見台灣的稅率早就已經有一個定案了只是一直還沒有確定所以當我們付出這麼多然後我們的談判還在持續的時候我們談判還在持續我們希望看看別的國家怎麼談的一定要把我們的優勢"},{"start":5470.294,"end":5488.326,"text":"到現在還看不出來我們已經付出太多犧牲太多我們到現在還不知道任何一個結果包括農產品你們都講不出來這個部分我們希望還是有一個比較具體的一個方向說明也可以提供書面資料可以已經到目前有結論的好不好謝謝不好意思謝謝馬委員的質詢下面質詢的委員是王定宇委員王委員請謝謝"},{"start":5510.344,"end":5519.115,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩外交部長經濟部次長以及經貿談判辦公室的徐子敏請商列人員就備巡台謝謝委員好"},{"start":5523.823,"end":5552.379,"text":"現在國際環境變化非常快那很多我們在因為美國是我們第一大投資對象也是我們非常重要的科技來源地緣政治安全各方面的對象國所以跟美國之間的談判的架構其實是非常重要所以本席今天就這個主題就較於三位第一個很久沒有聽到TIFA了TIFA這一個是不是都已經終止了"},{"start":5554.093,"end":5571.485,"text":"那個看是經濟部還是談貿辦那個徐子敏應該比較知道是 向委員報告其實TIFA就是我們政府跟美國貿易代表署之間的一個經貿對話的一個架構TIFA在94年我這邊有看到94年到現在快30年了對"},{"start":5572.786,"end":5591.104,"text":"它最早期的功能是我們參加WTO的時候有扮演一定的角色可是到最後一次TIFA開會是2021年6月302021年到現在為止台美之間的貿易投資架構協定TIFA是不是都已經沒有在談了"},{"start":5592.825,"end":5609.924,"text":"還是被取代了因為貿易倡議取代了因為貿易代表署是同一批人所以後來TIFA後來就是21世紀貿易倡議同一批人有時候談不一樣的東西我現在意思是說TIFA我們現在是不是正式要告訴我們委員會TIFA已經被"},{"start":5610.825,"end":5636.999,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倉益所取代了還是說因為那是同一群人我們忙著在處理貿易倉益那個是準BTA啦在處理貿易倉益所以TIVA那個暫時就擱置TIVA到底還在不在還在因為其實雙方並沒有說要把它Cancel掉他沒有在動啊就是跟委員報告因為同一批人現在在忙著別的事情先是貿易倉益後來是對等關係談判那我就來問你忙的另外一個事情所以TIVA確實2021年"},{"start":5640.256,"end":5662.95,"text":"六月底到目前為止沒有開過會了後來沒有再用這個名義開會那我們TIFA過來就來到台美21世紀貿易倡議這一個在雙方的形容叫做準BTA為什麼加個準他沒有簽到關稅沒有簽到關稅他是一個沒有關稅在內的經貿談判所以第一階段我們"},{"start":5664.048,"end":5689.982,"text":"是從2022年6月1號開始啟動那你看那個TIFA是2021年6月底嘛所以隔年改成這一個21世紀貿易倉益那第一階段呢當時談了一些法規啦 便捷化啦雙方服務業便捷進入規則啦等等當時還送到本委員會來核備那現在要進入到第二階段"},{"start":5690.697,"end":5703.148,"text":"那第二階段裡面就牽涉到農業還有糧食準備率還有勞工 環境其實比較接近ESG這方面的談判了那這個部分現在在談判當中所以我現在要請問"},{"start":5704.895,"end":5729.342,"text":"在目前川普政府以對等關稅為主軸他認為最漂亮的字叫做Tariff就是關稅可是我們這一個21世紀貿易倡議裡面是沒有談到關稅吧 對吧是那我要請教三位這一個21世紀貿易倡議在現在的川普政府下會不會被邊緣化還有沒有在談"},{"start":5732.067,"end":5755.621,"text":"像委員報告就是上一次開會什麼時候上一次開會是去年在拜登政府任內川普政府任內沒有開過半次是 因為川普政府任內之後台美就是忙於對等關稅談判你不能老是說他現在這群人在忙這個所以那個就放著就是說大家每一個國家有自己的agenda跟他的優先次序 這個我可以接受"},{"start":5756.502,"end":5782.599,"text":"但是TIFA剛才我聽起來TIFA被這一個準BTA貿易倡議所取代了可是其實你們雙方都沒有把TIFA做一個正式的停止因為它是一個架構台美之間談的架構搞不好哪一天又重新恢復我不知道嘛可是它確實就沒功能了可是現在台美21世紀貿易倡議當時是在拜登要建構一個印太的framework"},{"start":5783.063,"end":5795.654,"text":"然後台灣沒有納在裡面用這個來嫁接的它的背景是這樣子我現在嚴肅的問外交部長我們外交部對這個部分到底還有沒有在談這個東西還存不存在"},{"start":5798.53,"end":5823.06,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倡議有12個項目啦那已經談了五個千了嘛而且經過國會那要再往前推也有三個項目啊是已經談了差不多但是因為我想美國就是也是政黨輪替嘛上一次談判是幾月幾號 去年幾月幾號 六月上一次談判 剛才那個徐子密有關這一個21世紀貿易倡議上一次談判是什麼時候"},{"start":5825.651,"end":5852.388,"text":"正式的談判去年五月美方USDR有來台灣後來就沒了嗎後來還是有持續的溝通後來是溝通一些農業 勞安 環境這些事情但正式談判是去年五月底後來就沒有了那部長我請問去年五月底後來拜登政府跟川普政府他們就忙在選舉了對那一直到現在其實已經一年多快將近一年半了都沒有再談判了"},{"start":5853.376,"end":5877.735,"text":"我剛才的問題是經濟部也可以回答就是說在川普目前高舉關稅大旗的情況下這一個準BTA是沒有關稅在內是不是形同被川普政府Pending或者暫時就不處理了這樣描述是否正確報告委員分兩點報告第一個確實如同剛剛所說的"},{"start":5878.154,"end":5904.468,"text":"USTR現在因為是在跟全世界在做關稅的談判所以這個部分21世紀的貿易倡議的相關談判確實是有暫停但是第一階段因為都已經生效執行所以經濟部來負責的中小企業的合作這個部分的話我們確實還是有在持續的推動所以這一個倡議有簽署雙方的國會也通過之後前面五項有執行"},{"start":5905.569,"end":5923.944,"text":"可是後面的談判我們用Pending這個字暫時擱在那裡那目前關稅談判其實對等關稅已經接近尾聲了我們是少數最後幾個國家了接近尾聲之後我請教三位這一個貿易倡議會不會繼續然後繼續的時候關稅會不會進到這個裡面來你們的判斷"},{"start":5928.937,"end":5943.513,"text":"委員報告因為川普有他的監打那這個部分確實是比較停滯的狀況那隨時可以恢復那因為至於市場准錄包括這個關稅因為現在切出來另外一談就是我想"},{"start":5944.073,"end":5961.389,"text":"那個協議最後會簽成什麼樣比如說川普也跟不同的國家在談所謂的關稅的時候也簽了包括像科技繁榮協議或其他的大架構那這個就是每一個總統他有他自己要啟動的這兩個東西為什麼重要其實當時透過這個談判是要讓台美之間雙方"},{"start":5963.09,"end":5986.094,"text":"進入對積木然後雙方更緊密的結合不管在供應鏈跟市場讓彼此成為彼此不可或缺的夥伴關係這對台灣的安全經貿坦白講對後續的關稅台灣都有幫助可是我看關追蹤的一段時間這個是目前停在那裡我個人表達憂心所以我現在移到下一個題目這就牽扯到CPTPP"},{"start":5988.473,"end":6008.141,"text":"CPTPP我們從2021年6月2號我們是在2021年9月22號遞交前一兩天好像是中國遞交那遞交申請書之後現在應該要進入的叫做AWG叫做陸會工作小組"},{"start":6009.335,"end":6037.721,"text":"那英國 當然英國走超快速的因為英國跟他們幾乎都有FTA了所以英國快不能拿來當作台灣的指標啦但英國做一個參考英國在2021年6月2號遞交申請書2024年就成立了2021年當年就成立了AWG工作小組那目前呢 像CPTPP遞交申請書的有六個國家中國 哥斯大利加 厄瓜多 烏拉圭 烏克蘭以及台灣"},{"start":6039.226,"end":6067.391,"text":"那目前我們在成立工作小組請教三個單位對成立陸會工作小組樂不樂觀有沒有進度我們在做突破啦我最近召開了12個國家我們駐當地國的大使或代表那我們有策略嘛但因為現在包括英國加入了然後日本是高市早苗當首相這個新的動人我們怎麼樣去運動突破的策略是什麼我跟委員報告兩點"},{"start":6068.931,"end":6085.297,"text":"一點就是說其實加拿大在去年當主席國的時候有啟動一個所謂pre-consultation也就是說入會工作小組之前的諮商是可以進行的比如我們現在已經跟某些國家展開雙邊的諮商那基礎成多然後第二點呢第二點就是所謂奧克蘭三原則裡面"},{"start":6086.717,"end":6102.225,"text":"高標準沒有不良紀錄再加上所謂共識覺那個共識覺的解釋不能夠任由變成少數的人去推翻多數的決定這只是成立陸會工作小組進行實質的審查我們現在陸會的優勢其實是台灣的 readiness我們大概法規的準備以及台灣優質符合國際貿易的標準我們其實是合格的"},{"start":6112.85,"end":6137.272,"text":"然後台灣的民主體制我們對國營事業他對國營事業有一些規範我們是符合的然後呢我們都已經做好調適準備了另外一個優勢是台灣在全球供應鏈的韌性以及我們在IT產業以及晶片產業我們有優勢坦白講不只我們需要CPTPP他們也需要我們那我們為什麼需要他CPTPP涵蓋的範圍佔了我國貿易的36%以上"},{"start":6140.138,"end":6163.399,"text":"裡面我們台灣貿易的前十大國幾乎都在裡面所以這一次加入就等於一次牽扯所有的FTA這很重要但是主力當然中國是一個主力那叫地緣政治主力他利用共識覺所以我知道你剛才講上一次加拿大講的他的共識覺是不能用來當作否決權但是這在運作上也就困難所以我剛才請教你們策略是什麼呢"},{"start":6165.71,"end":6187.131,"text":"現在陸會國的審理方案其實有三個模式一個叫做先來先審先來先審我們就麻煩了因為中國其實中國不符合那個標準這個已經被確定不是第二個叫做準備程度高者先行第三個叫做政治妥協方案六國統統成立AWG"},{"start":6188.513,"end":6209.125,"text":"那哥斯大黎加比中國比台灣晚送件可是哥斯大黎加呢已經成立工作小組AWG所以顯示CPTPP已經沒有採取先送先審他也許會採取政治妥協或者準備好先審所以你們現在全我們現在我們國家採取的入會的策略是哪一個"},{"start":6210.27,"end":6234.261,"text":"我們現在就是 當然正面是要成立陸會工作小組那我們也產開雙邊的直接的所謂的前期諮商再來我們也做了一個研究報告 這很重要比如說台灣加入的貢獻是如何 就我們的加值外交我們算出來 包括中金院這些相關的機構是對每個國家都會受惠 甚至受惠的程度如何我們都有量化的資料"},{"start":6234.821,"end":6251.925,"text":"所以沒有理由說一個台灣要參加CPTPP對大家都有利我最後這樣講我可不可以讓我再一點點講那個所謂的第三原則共識訣我們現在的溝通有產生一些效果就是你反對的人要說理由你不能說我就是沒有同意讓你去成立陸地工作你要講出理由講不出理由"},{"start":6254.326,"end":6276.872,"text":"就代表你政治的操作吧國際政治有時候因為你剛才講的是道理其實按道理台灣就應該參加我們的實力就應該參加我們的準備程度我們就應該參加我們的貢獻度我們就應該參加這叫得利這不叫策略策略就是你剛才講的你反對我要講出個道理來如果這是他們的決議那這還有點用如果這不是決議我就反對不理你你給我加"},{"start":6278.636,"end":6300.705,"text":"對 所以要對奧克蘭三原則的補充說明如果能夠接受反對者要舉證說明不然就是政治考量我們最後一章我最後一分鐘我要提醒就是說其實我目前把它分類這12國大概可以分成四大類堅定支持視台灣為戰略夥伴的日本 英國 澳洲你剛才講的高視早瞄是一個新變數"},{"start":6301.525,"end":6322.226,"text":"事实上从安倍以后这个态度变化不大只是说动力高低而已英国是表明了CPTPP是一个对抗中国经贸威胁的一个组织还有一种是积极协调程序推动像加拿大你刚才讲的那个预先协商机制是他提出来的另外有第三种是严守标准"},{"start":6323.368,"end":6338.465,"text":"我都只要符合高標準的我都樂見新加坡紐西蘭是這種最麻煩的是第四個受地緣政治就受中國施壓的像秘魯這些國家所以你如果把它分類出來之後應該針對不同的國家這12國"},{"start":6340.073,"end":6366.169,"text":"應該有不同的談判策略特別在川普用對等關稅的當下台灣如何跟美國之外的經貿區域建立這種容易進入準FTA的機制其實對我們的經貿發展很重要所以本席今天是說這個題目其實影響非常深遠但是不會很熱鬧 不會很刺激但我期待我們經濟部 外交部我們經貿談判辦"},{"start":6368.171,"end":6383.253,"text":"這個事情的重要性不亞於對美關稅大家一起加油好不好這些國家我希望有一天專報是你針對不同國家有不同的策略那該機密專報我可以接受但是要有不同的方法去梭理"},{"start":6383.749,"end":6413.569,"text":"而不是同一套道理要大家接受秘魯或者某一些國家他的反對其實也沒有什麼道理啊我跟委員報告秘魯他是支持的他現在支持嗎他現在這個因為總統也被彈劾了這個政府也處於一個過渡的階段他要彈劾我們不要講了你是外交部長我們這個已經是發生的事情所以我們也在但是秘魯是相對來講是有可能的秘魯的突破其實是一個大突破是後面還有一個國家我就不講好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":6419.172,"end":6421.713,"text":"謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":6433.638,"end":6447.993,"text":"謝主席 主席有請外交部林佳龍部長經濟部 秦部長政務江次長然後陸委會省副主委經濟部還有陸委會請就備巡台 謝謝"},{"start":6450.155,"end":6465.507,"text":"部長不知道您是不是知道就是11月4號的時候我們的檢調已經針對就是柬埔寨的太子集團在台灣的這些所謂的不法行事已經台北地檢署已經成立了專案小組那麼來做這個相關的這個"},{"start":6468.729,"end":6492.96,"text":"包括資產的扣押等等那麼我基本上不是要詢問這個個案但是從這個個案我想透過外交的部分來跟您做一個討論那就是其實我們知道就是針對這個所謂太子集團事實上他的高層透過柬埔寨這種免簽那麼新南下的這個政策其實是不是成為一個破口稍後我會跟您討論但是"},{"start":6494.921,"end":6515.052,"text":"我們可以知道中國透過經濟的量能不斷的在吸引我們的邦交國棄台灣然後取中國我想這個部分是非常明確的那麼在美國今年的10月14號起訴了太子奇團的創辦人陳志之后那麼我相信台灣"},{"start":6515.772,"end":6544.447,"text":"美國跟帛琉之間其實事實上是有做一些資訊交換的而這個資訊當中其實三月的時候美國的智庫就已經發文提醒警告中國背景的跨犯罪組織是透過帛琉偵測度假村跟土地開發從事洗錢博弈跟詐騙而且更重要的是後面他有這個政治目的就是北京要透過這樣的方式希望他們改支持中國"},{"start":6545.347,"end":6570.533,"text":"那我們回來看的是我們看這個中國已經促進滲透我們的友邦到底我們要如何來因應我特別整理了一下台商在帛琉的投資的部分其實到了這個近幾年幾乎我們在這個部分的投資它都是處於零的一個狀態我知道部長一直在推所謂的總和外交或者是其他的方 農邦計畫等等"},{"start":6572.873,"end":6600.003,"text":"但是面對上帛琉就是我們的邦交國但是這個經濟的挹注的投資就是拉不上來部長怎麼看我也要順便請問後面經濟部我報告委員如果是加上2025這個數字會上來很多也就是我們籠幫計劃的努力啊已經有一些成果我知道其實您也曾經希望能夠帶團那有一些我也率團去參加帛琉會主任總統的就職典禮好那所以現在的掌握是可以有"},{"start":6600.704,"end":6602.238,"text":"怎麼樣的一個數字上的提升"},{"start":6603.427,"end":6632.526,"text":"那因為具體的投資項目現在都啟動了榮邦計畫說雙邊對接那所以我是對未來是很樂觀我也號召國人多去帛琉觀光旅遊以外也可以做投資他那個條件是很好那我現在回過來講其實您剛講這個打擊所謂的這個太子集團還有他背後的中國的操弄特別是透過這個所謂這個包括洗錢那進入去想要去掌握他的產業"},{"start":6633.908,"end":6648.927,"text":"進而影響他的選舉那進行包括精英俘虜也就是對特定的人鎖定給他一種就是說收買好 那這個我們經過合作因為這個案子我在總統府秘書長的時候我就密切注意了那我到外交部長更是"},{"start":6649.528,"end":6665.238,"text":"所以為什麼說惠碩人總統他會講說其實中國對於佛羅是處於作戰的狀態也就是說中國用這樣的一個所謂的用滲透啦操弄啦包括這些犯罪其實是已經在發動戰爭好那我們現在問題來了"},{"start":6669.011,"end":6689.025,"text":"我們以前是故邦啦我們現在把它發展成榮邦為什麼要拜託委員會給我們這個支持預算就是說它需要發展因為帛琉可以發展藍色經濟 綠色觀光它的條件很好但是我們怎麼樣不是只是援助而是去投資那這個就是明年因為帛琉要辦PIF"},{"start":6689.785,"end":6702.711,"text":"太平洋島國論壇那我們把它設定成明年的這個PIV舉辦的時候要展現我們在太平洋地區龍芒計畫的成果所以現在一樣一樣可以說是如火如荼的在進行中"},{"start":6703.632,"end":6710.337,"text":"所以說這個2025年之後到2026其實在這個投資金額上面會有展現會 已經其實到因為今天2025已經11月了因為我知道的投資項目就好幾項已經確定了好 那有金額嗎應該可以在明年的這個就是太平洋島國論壇的時候來呈現我站這裡面重點的項目當然有包括他們要發展的所謂的這個"},{"start":6734.751,"end":6757.894,"text":"觀光這裡面石塑油構型怎麼樣去讓他可以吸引更優質的觀光的投資不管是飯店或是交通還有其他的這一些購物啦還有這些等等另外一個就是用零碳排的一個運輸就是智慧運輸系統還有當然也包括我們對他的這個"},{"start":6760.229,"end":6785.243,"text":"就是能源 相關的政策我們的支持 而且這是跨國在進行不只有台灣 還包括像美國 日本跟澳大利亞等國家大家一起在推動所以部長我最後一個問題問你我等一下問其他部會因為今天時間比較短那就是除了帛琉之外外交部這邊還有掌握其他我們的友邦也被中國用同樣的方式在做其他的滲透嗎有"},{"start":6787.386,"end":6791.396,"text":"那有什麼作為嗎或者是可以說是哪些國家嗎"},{"start":6793.444,"end":6819.263,"text":"他們幾乎對每一個國家都採取這種一帶一路然後輸入一些比如說像華為然後就掌控你的基礎設施就進行政商勾結所以精英的俘虜然後再加上資訊操弄這個就是帛琉去年在總統選舉的時候遭受大量的威脅我想包括我們跟美國都合作一起協助他抵擋這些假訊息還有這些所有的所謂的收買"},{"start":6820.094,"end":6823.478,"text":"讓這個選舉可以公平而惠蘇人總統能夠高票連任我們的邦交也能夠維繫下去其實本席就是希望在這個部分真的必須說實話經濟必須要互惠我們的邦誼也才能夠奠定在基礎之上那我要問一下經濟部就是"},{"start":6838.795,"end":6863.552,"text":"其實他們炸團來台灣設公司洗錢喔那麼台灣是不是淪為洗錢的終極戰太子集團在我們國內設的九家空殼公司當中來進行跨國的洗錢我知道現在經濟委員會也正在針對公司法在做修正但是像這樣的一個狀態跟像一個狀況喔之前經濟部在整個案件被引爆之前有收到相關的訊息嗎那麼在這個部分現在是不是台灣作為這個亞太洗錢防治組織的創始會員國"},{"start":6867.295,"end":6878.561,"text":"在這個部分經濟部有沒有什麼其他的想法因為這部分顯然公司一家一家開但是是不是我們在這邊的管理上面過於鬆散我想經濟部會講說他當初來設立的時候都沒有太大的問題等等那麼在這後面經濟部作為主管機關有沒有思考過該如何來杜絕像這樣的公司變成是跨國洗錢活動當中的台灣成為洗錢的天堂"},{"start":6894.19,"end":6918.365,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會願意台灣成為這個洗錢的天堂所以我們現在的這個公司登記是分為兩個部分五億元以上是直接跟經濟部登記如果是五億元以下就是委由六都縣市來做登記所以我們現在有加強強化的管理第一個部分就是我們如果同一家公司"},{"start":6919.225,"end":6943.563,"text":"对不起同一个地址如果设两家以上公司我们会要求这个申请人要提出更具体的相关的文件第二个我们也已经在预计在12月份跟六都的相关的公司登记的人员来做相关的说明有必要的话我们也会请法务部来派代表来跟登记人员做相关的说明"},{"start":6943.843,"end":6959.873,"text":"好沒錯因為我想這個次長董我也要問什麼就是你看這九家公司同樣一個代表人連名字都非常接近還有聯凡聯凡二然後所以伯居伯居二這顯然就是有問題存在你一間公司需要如此的"},{"start":6960.814,"end":6973.689,"text":"把它擴張而它擴張真的實質它的營運項目到底是什麼這個部分也希望主管機關在就公司登記及相關地方政府在給予成立的時候必須要來做了解最後我想要詢問陸委會就是"},{"start":6976.112,"end":6986.305,"text":"對於像這樣的一個洗錢集團喔美國在提出警訊之後那麼陸委會有掌握嗎那麼對於說像中國就是用這個方式來做所謂的經濟滲透這個是其實長期存在就像過去一帶一路的狀況喔"},{"start":6991.252,"end":7011.875,"text":"但是問題是因為身為包括像我們有這個所謂高層來台那像這個部分當然因為我們這個所謂免簽的關係東南亞新南向政策甚至於被報導出來就是因為他可以免費來到台灣那麼這對於陸委會來講在做資訊的掌握上面是不是其實有更多的這個了解"},{"start":7013.01,"end":7028.739,"text":"這個部分我們會跟像是外交部移民署還有像是國安會還有國安局多多交換這個資料因為在很多的這個法條上面來講的話如果會不見得是主管機關所以我們有的時候是相對來講是比較被動的來接收到訊息之後然後我們再去做啟動一個後續的調查"},{"start":7029.141,"end":7056.18,"text":"好那最後再跟主席借一點時間就是本席其實一直在追蹤就是有關於中國這種所謂的真偷假偷渡真滲透的方式那麼事實上本席也已經在10月29號跟針對這個蔡明彥這個局長有做過質詢而我也提出了修法其中這個主管機關就是陸委會就是有關於兩岸人民關係條例裡頭我特別要求陸委會在針對這個所謂的"},{"start":7058.182,"end":7071.501,"text":"這個收容的部分尤其是必須要定期的針對這種所謂非法入籍留在入侵牢留在台灣的這些人士那麼依情節必須在針對他們的收容來做檢討"},{"start":7073.484,"end":7088.033,"text":"因為當時蔡明彥回覆我的是說這只是個案每一個個案的狀況不同那麼我想請問陸委會在兩岸人民關係條例當中有沒有要針對這個所謂假偷渡真滲透的部分提出修法跟修正"},{"start":7088.963,"end":7112.122,"text":"這個部分因為時空環境有變化所以以前我印象中的話曾經大法官有釋憲過所以我們就在那個兩岸人民關係條例裡面把他的拘留天數給明確的定了下來但現在看起來因為中共滲透的情況越來越惡化而且嚴重所以確實有可能有要調整的必要所以未來在這個部分如果有相關的這個修法我們現在也正在應處如果委員有任何的這個建議的話也都非常歡迎委員來給我們一些訊息"},{"start":7112.662,"end":7131.37,"text":"好最後這個還是要再請一下部長那個陸委會跟經濟部可以先請問最後就是當然有關於這個新南向簽證的部分我們知道其實為了鼓勵新南向那麼我們當然也是希望新南向國家的人民可以到台灣來但是面對剛剛有特別提到的就是簽證的部分我們對"},{"start":7132.31,"end":7155.986,"text":"柬埔寨簽證的待遇的部分那麼包括他可以不用這個所謂的簽證費或者是甚至於不用直接到外館去做簽證也可以拿第三國的簽證入境台灣那麼以目前柬埔寨的這樣一個狀況的時候那麼包括新南向的簽證會做一些所謂的在資格上面的修正又或者是會做檢討嗎"},{"start":7158.228,"end":7168.793,"text":"會 因為我們也事實上滾動在檢討針對每一年的因為我們的簽證政策包括以所謂的觀光旅遊進來的犯案的情形這些作為檢討"},{"start":7173.815,"end":7187.382,"text":"先前因為疫情過後我們有一波比較大的開放其實現在我們也要針對每一個國家的情形來做調整不是說我們試辦我們就會持續會辦下去有些我們會做調整好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7209.258,"end":7211.085,"text":"主席麻煩請部長外交部部長請部長"},{"start":7219.861,"end":7241.724,"text":"部長好 最近有一些相關的新聞讓我有點憂心首先就是之前的美媒它有發布說這個部長在九月紐約設宴那多方的美方高層原本預定出席卻沒有現身但是有部分媒體就直接草擬說無人到場"},{"start":7242.825,"end":7264.354,"text":"那部長我想請教一下這是不是我們從1971年退出聯合國後首次有外交部長受邀前往聯大期間舉辦的非官方週邊活動所以這是當然第一次在聯合國大會期間當然台灣的外交部長到紐約而且出席週邊的活動所以是首次"},{"start":7265.756,"end":7286.344,"text":"是 所以算是在歷史性來講它某種程度也算是突破可是在這種突破的狀況之下因為要 因為跟美方的默契我們也沒有主張要大肆的去宣傳我是擔心是不是有心人士他一方面可能是見不得國家好見不得國家往前走那故意放這種消息嗎應該不會有這種狀況吧"},{"start":7288.525,"end":7310.521,"text":"其實我是覺得這是一個認知作戰的一部分因為最近包括聯合國大會之後像APEC 川習會你看一波一波從某一些外媒他資訊是怎麼來當然背後我們也在做分析那也會做好媒體試讀這樣的一個事情其實主辦單位是有"},{"start":7312.189,"end":7329.032,"text":"貼文的就是說那不是我們台灣外交部長在那個地方辦宴會而是我們是受邀那有上百個人出席的場合這麼多人那所以竟然會有這樣的訊息說當事人在現場然後看到我們都請不到人來參會上面就說那個消息人士說台灣感到挫敗其實在這種狀況之下怎麼會有什麼挫敗我們是很大的進展啊"},{"start":7341.374,"end":7367.122,"text":"那這些人到底有心人是在挫敗什麼感到什麼東西而且又配合又要怎麼撤換我國的駐美代表這一連串的新聞這樣全部跑出來無中生有 加油添醋我希望我們國家要面對中國的挑戰已經很大了不要再有內部希望大家團結支持外交部能夠走出去千萬不要再這樣子內部如果還要結合中國勢力來打壓我國外交的話"},{"start":7367.702,"end":7396.683,"text":"那我老实说这是很痛心的事情当然美国也有一些不同意识形态的利益团体也有想要去引导他们的美国的这个对中对台的政策美国孤立主义等等这样的人都有但是结合了一些媒体甚至他们有投资的关系或者是说那个讯息来源本身有接受委托这个我们当然都一一都会去把这个个案把它研究清楚之后来做好媒体的试读"},{"start":7397.003,"end":7410.218,"text":"在陽光底下沒有所謂可以掩蓋的如果有內部人士做類似這樣的做法遲早都會被發現所以我要感謝像杜益景先生他這個幫我們把這個整個資訊的就是"},{"start":7416.664,"end":7442.193,"text":"這個演變啦做了很好的分析那貼在他的社群媒體上才讓大家了解是哪個環節被擴大或扭曲但是你看喔包括有政黨的到黨主席到他們的這個所謂的文傳會的這個負責人都用前面錯的訊息在批判台灣的我們外交"},{"start":7445.009,"end":7454.058,"text":"我是覺得這個不應該再去推波助瀾有講過的最好能夠道歉不然這個會留住好像變成這個"},{"start":7456.136,"end":7484.721,"text":"錯的事情現在變成當作一個前提在做很多批判對啊 這個如果再去解釋的話反而就又被拿來做做延伸我們覺得不太好那沒關係 我們想請教一下部長那既然我們在台美關係從這個在他的參加他的非官方周邊活動開始那我認為我們在台美關係的這種促進上面其實應該是有進展的吧是我問問部長最近有沒有什麼具體合作的項目有沒有達成什麼"},{"start":7486.926,"end":7506.925,"text":"那因為川普總統的新政當然有除了安全面我想印太戰略很清楚我想大家都知道這個川普政府對於台海安全的重視跟支持但是我就從其他他比較關注的新的面向包括關稅還有包括像這個232條款還有包括像"},{"start":7510.008,"end":7536.918,"text":"半導體跟AI相關的政策我們其實都做好準備跟川普政府的政策是可以對接的當然最近陸續我想因為大家過去有一些人在操弄的棄台論跟儀美論其實經過這一波川普來到亞洲出席東協跟APEC然後也召開了很多包括川習會等我想應該是大家會比較清楚"},{"start":7537.638,"end":7554.491,"text":"就是川普總統他們的一個對台灣的政策那我簡單講一下這一次當然沒有意外發生都是因為台美很好的溝通我也速度在被委員問到的時候我們是有信心的要關心但不要過度擔心那對台美關係要有信心"},{"start":7557.893,"end":7572.334,"text":"那我們也看到因為有一些除了川普總統他提到的這些很重要那台灣是台灣美中關係是美中關係總之是兩回事以外包括像Marco Rubio這個國務卿還有非常多他重要的決策者"},{"start":7573.235,"end":7600.265,"text":"已經很清楚地談了不可能去把貿易談判跟台灣去掛鉤那這些我們的戰略溝通也有一些效果那我們支持台美關係穩定往前發展的也慢慢地都把這些這個很清楚的這個立場都表態那我們也必須了解那美方關注的包括國防預算還有經貿談判這個都要進行之後我想所有的這些可能不確定性就會確定了"},{"start":7602.446,"end":7625.008,"text":"但是我們也看到機會在哪裡比如台美關係我想在美國關注的不管是經貿人員人工智慧還有這個半導體關鍵礦物跟稀土方面這個供應鏈的合作在所謂的非紅供應鏈或民主供應鏈上其實台美是有很大的一個合作的空間我們現在逐項的在盤點要對接"},{"start":7626.75,"end":7645.957,"text":"那我跟委員講這一次在APEC這個高峰會跟場邊會議裡面有一個很重要我們做好充分的準備因為這次的主題跟AI有關也就是人工智慧而台灣在這方面除了我們的領袖代表的發言我們的三個企業諮詢的代表都針對這個把台灣經驗那麼在國際上很清楚的呈現而這個也就是包括台美之間對於所謂的發展供應鏈能夠去"},{"start":7657.014,"end":7662.888,"text":"擴展台美聯合艦隊特別我要跟委員報告的是所謂大家關心的台灣模式的科學園區"},{"start":7665.146,"end":7686.691,"text":"那我們以台灣做一個 就是一個參考的雛形然後到美國要去設說 特別是台美政府都要來支持才能夠把這樣的生態系建構所以我們也會推動台美之間對於這個合作能夠形成一個制度性的架構"},{"start":7688.052,"end":7703.949,"text":"然後能夠讓台灣投資美國隊美國投資台灣隊能夠在美國能夠壯大美國也壯大台灣我們在五月的時候我也去到了德州召開AI的高峰會所有的工協會一起去"},{"start":7704.549,"end":7717.125,"text":"那這個台灣Tower這個案子行政院的經濟外交工作小組通過那台美經貿小組也列入重點所以我們不只是亞利桑那州還包括德州去發展出一個台灣有優勢的供應鏈"},{"start":7719.929,"end":7749.13,"text":"那這個我想對於台美關係也會起一個非常大的注意這一點也是我們這一次外交部同仁雖然有時候在第一線不一定是外交部就像說在APEC的會議上雙部長會議其實外交部長雖然我本身沒有去但是是有代表就是吳承文這個政委也是國科會的主委所以這一些都是我們跨部會一起在推動"},{"start":7749.95,"end":7753.135,"text":"就是打造台美能夠在未來的新興科技的產業上建立一個策略夥伴的關係"},{"start":7759.636,"end":7783.672,"text":"好 謝謝部長那接下來就請書面報告給我就是包含這個美國參議院他否決關稅那在眾議院參議院跟他最高法院他們之間的這個對關稅上面的影響跟他我們的預判是什麼跟我們要做的一些影響是什麼這個部分再請外交部給我們相關的這個資訊然後再來就是愛沙尼亞跟印度的關係我們也會書面給大家因為時間已經超過了好 謝謝"},{"start":7788.372,"end":7790.584,"text":"謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":7805.836,"end":7819.842,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這個我先請這個經濟部次長還有這個這個陸委會的副主委請經濟部次長還有陸委會副主委就被巡台委員好"},{"start":7823.308,"end":7851.754,"text":"你好 這一個呢這個去年的時候其實我就問過了但我覺得這個有必要再追因為這件事情跟我們今天的主題有關係因為這一個我們先不論因為川習慧他本身是一個結果他不是一個原因簡單來講我們這一個不管是美中的關係還是說這一個貿易戰這個進程其實不會因為這一個會有所太大的改變那現在美國在意的事情大概都是那幾個"},{"start":7852.754,"end":7876.007,"text":"有一個非常重要的就還是跟產地有關的又或者說呢這個之前我們在總諮詢的時候也有問過在這一個經濟委員會也有問過那另外一件事情呢其實就是我們跟中國企業的關係所以淘寶這件事情就是因為我看到他們這一個這個總統大院長他之前有說呢希望要去研究這個限期落地的事情"},{"start":7876.667,"end":7901.992,"text":"那他就發了一個聲明說2018年的時候這個台灣分公司已經依許法規合法落地這前幾天的事情而已那這個跟我們之前理解就不一樣嘛對不對 就是說第一個就是說中國淘寶其實不能算是在台灣真的有落地它真的有一個這一個跟我們投手有關的是香港的那一家那它做的只是一個分送的業務所以我之前有函文給經濟部在問這個問題的時候就經濟部有在調查"},{"start":7905.173,"end":7924.675,"text":"調查的是什麼呢就是說香港這一個分公司那他在台灣做的這個業務有沒有符合他所設立的這一個目的對不對如果他說只有分送那他是不是可以在前面放廣告啊什麼等等之類的這是一條線那如果只是按照法規來講的話我們可以針對這家公司到底有做沒做這件事情呢來做討論跟裁罰"},{"start":7926.357,"end":7947.491,"text":"但其實呢他跟中國逃跑我認為他應該是分開的事情因為中國逃跑他本身就是一家電商嘛那這一家電商呢他能不能下廣告跟他今天寄東西到台灣應不應該要收到管制這其實是兩件事情那我們呢其實當然已經解決了或者說已經討論了香港的這一件事情但中國這件事情實質上是沒有解決"},{"start":7948.211,"end":7960.282,"text":"那我知道其實這一件事情因為它牽涉到兩岸條例我們電商很多全世界各式各樣的電商都很多但是會受到兩岸條例規範的電商是只有中國電商對 亞馬遜不會受到這個兩岸條例的規範這個31條的適用範圍沒有到它"},{"start":7964.065,"end":7981.386,"text":"那我知道因為陸委會在這個他也是在一起討論這件事情的範圍之內所以可不可以說明一下就是現在針對中國電商我們無論香港香港那個他有沒有分送要不要做廣告那是另外一件事就是針對中國電商這件事情目前我們的做法跟過一番是什麼"},{"start":7983.103,"end":8005.083,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題對於中國淘寶它確實沒有在台灣落地那它是跨境電商的模式所以現在行政院已經責成幾個部會包括經濟部 數位部 衛福部 還有財政部我們要分別就這個邊境的管制還有相關業務的推動已經成立專責的小組"},{"start":8006.364,"end":8024.313,"text":"所以可以看得出來其實在邊境管制是第一道防線財政部已經決定說未來如果透過電商的這些進口的話應該也要有進口報單的申報所以從邊境這邊來做第一關的"},{"start":8024.833,"end":8042.769,"text":"第一關的這個管制那目前呢就像我剛剛所報告的中國淘寶沒有來申請因為呢根據我們的這個正面表列入資來台的正面表列如果是跨境的電商他會涉及到不同的這個"},{"start":8043.806,"end":8061.102,"text":"这个业别那其中呢是不允许我们是不允许广告业到台湾来做相关的服务以上好所以呢因为在这件事情上面如果今天行政院已经有责成一个小组要来讨论这件事情的话第一个我想问一下如何就是34条的这个适用的空间"},{"start":8061.702,"end":8082.919,"text":"就是說我剛剛講31是打詐我剛剛講打詐是31然後兩岸條例是34就是34的這個第一項配合40條嘛它有一個這一個相關的規定就是說如果你沒有在許可的狀況之下你應該如何如何這個34條到底有沒有適用的空間打詐專法31條那是另外一件事情它所有的不利益可能會更大"},{"start":8083.9,"end":8105.588,"text":"基本上我們現在這個按照兩岸人民關係條例裡面是沒有開放入資來台投資電商特別針對電商這塊來講是沒有空間的但現在比較複雜的情況是在於說譬如說我們看到有的時候是變成他是港資或者說他裡面只有部分是中資他透過第三地然後用合夥的方式到台灣來投資所以這個部分可能還需要再有更多的這個情況來做一個滾動式的這個調整"},{"start":8107.689,"end":8125.689,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說針對電商這一塊來講我們不管是這個這個中資或者是其他的那我們總共列了一二三四五六八項這個八項裡面以淘寶的這個案例來講的話我們只有核准他我們只有核准他進行電子資訊的供應還有廣告傳單的分送這兩項而已"},{"start":8126.83,"end":8149.491,"text":"對 就香港分公司申請的那一個對 所以他那個時候在媒體上面有講說他已經落地了 接受監管所以他可以來從事電商的業務這個其實是錯誤的因為我們只有核准他這兩項那他從事了這兩項以外的其他項目來說的話他就是違法了對 你這樣提到我在追問一件事情我剛剛想到的就是說因為他們好像也有開記者會或什麼之類的那他們開記者會的時候他的名義到底是什麼比如說他是用中國淘寶"},{"start":8150.792,"end":8177.397,"text":"還是他是用香港的然後他有沒有符合他本來如果說是香港因為香港的才有申請這個相關的業務他有沒有包含可以做這件事情我覺得這可能也要注意一下是 跟委員報告就是說他來投資的是用香港淘寶的這個身分但是他事實上他在從事的那個項目裡面就是剛剛跟委員報告的他已經超過了我們核准他的這兩項所以我們針對其他的部分還包含像是拼多多蝦皮這個問題是更加的複雜"},{"start":8178.257,"end":8204.001,"text":"那淘寶的這個部分來講的話事實上我們是已經先針對了他違法的這個部分來說也跟經濟部還有跟相關的這個部會來演繹那其他的這個部分來說的話因為每個個案情況都不一樣但是我們可能會針對不同的個案來看我們現在的法律是不是夠用OK好 這個很感謝因為我覺得這是一個很大的問題就是說剛好最近朱溫的事情大家對於邊境管事也越來越重視那我覺得應該在這個機會我們一次性的讓國人很清楚就是說我們有哪些法律的工具"},{"start":8204.341,"end":8220.142,"text":"我們不一定需要立法院這邊修法就是行政端用既有的法律工具看能不能先做好管制那不然的話這其實你說民生的危機就算了以後可能會有國家安全的危機也有可能會影響到我們的貿易的談判這個影響非常的巨大我覺得這非常重要的事情"},{"start":8220.342,"end":8245.188,"text":"是委員提醒非常重要因為我們確實有看到我們委託學者做一些研究他有提醒我們譬如說洗產地的風險這個現在美國非常高度的關注甚至也有國安的風險怎麼說呢因為我們會發現有一些化學的這種燃料啦或者工具或者是有可能形成國安危機的這樣子的這種危險的這種物品他可以用拼裝的這個方式所以他可以個別個別的透過這個法律的漏洞進到台灣來之後最後拼裝起來變成生化武器"},{"start":8245.888,"end":8267.063,"text":"雖然沒有發生但是我們覺得必須要嚴防啦更甚至於已經有發生的情況譬如說校園裡面的電子煙我已經收到非常多家長的反應他們都反應說這些電子煙就是透過這種境外的電商那沒有明確的是講哪一家但是確實我們發現境外電商不是只有這次豬瘟有疑慮有太多太多的對於社會對於我們年輕朋友的危害是產生這個疑慮我們會加以來檢討"},{"start":8269.284,"end":8296.906,"text":"好 那我覺得這個之後我再繼續來追蹤那接下來我想問的是外交部但我看時間不一定夠用就是說 部長就是說我簡單問一下因為前面其實滿多人問過的就是說這一個APEC就是明年的這一個官員附中的這個法律風險因為我們現在不是說官員附中有風險而已我們連一般人民去中國都會失蹤這個到香港都會被抓走所以呢 就是就這一點而已目前的準備狀況如何"},{"start":8298.636,"end":8321.121,"text":"我們因為有預期到中國可能會有這種動作所以在去年他申請明年要辦APEC大年會的時候我們就已經有透過APEC的這個平台他書面的承諾第一個要確保我們的人身安全另外當然是APEC精神包括今年的這個所謂雙部長的會議的共同聲明也再次提到"},{"start":8321.781,"end":8336.22,"text":"必須要保障平等參與的權利這個就是說除了國格不能被貶低之外這當然了我想問一下就是說這個安全相關的問題它的主管機關是要外交部負責還是要請國安單位負責"},{"start":8337.557,"end":8366.155,"text":"我們現在國安會是有開始在針對這個跨部會有在開始做好這個未來的這個因應因為這個我覺得因為主管是誰可能蠻重要的因為當然都是在我們這邊國防外交委員會但是我們想說因為這個也跟預算有關就是說我們之後針對這樣的執行針對這個官員的這個保護這未來應該是重要的事情所以他到底是在比如說他在哪裡被編列"},{"start":8366.815,"end":8379.769,"text":"它的量能是擺在哪裡然後我們要怎麼去做監督這件事情可能要先釐清但是我不一定要在公開的場合講非常的清楚說到底是哪一個單位來主責但是是不是能夠在這一兩個禮拜我們來稍微整理一下相關這個官員附中風險的問題"},{"start":8382.119,"end":8391.03,"text":"是當然過去APEC我們大家都跨部會那當然外交部有國主司嘛因為現在當然加上陸委會也是很重要因為在中國大陸所以這整個應該說我們已經啟動了針對因為12月就開始明年度的活動"},{"start":8398.96,"end":8417.312,"text":"所以我們就會面對到事實上在這一次在韓國我們就開始在跟中國的APEC資深官員在交涉所以這個是不能夠讓今年形成明年為什麼我們那麼堅持不能用地方政府的官員去接我們的領袖代表"},{"start":8417.952,"end":8446.688,"text":"那如果明年去那邊他還是比較找一個地方層級的來接機那另外就是安全面我們要求就是對於會員國的保障而這個不只我們我想連我們友好國家他們也都表達這個關切才讓中國來舉辦他們是有承諾的那如果他們違背這個承諾我想APEC是共識決我們一定會強力的這個做反制因為他大會要有共同的聲明其實去年其實"},{"start":8447.988,"end":8468.785,"text":"一些友好國家說我們算是打了一場很很漂亮的勝仗不但把這個APEC過去中國企圖矮化成兩岸的這個來往回到APEC的平台而且今年也繼續我們希望明年也能夠確保我們參與的利益跟出席者的安全好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8482.098,"end":8505.627,"text":"謝謝主席我們請林佳龍林部長請林部長部長好因為APEC的關係呢那大家就開始這個更加的關注那我們中華民國加入各種的這些國際組織的進度那其中有一個很重要的呢是CPTPP在蔡英文政府"},{"start":8506.768,"end":8525.644,"text":"在2021年的9月22日是有向紐西蘭地建正式申請加入CPTPP的現在目前已經過了4年我想要請問一下目前的進度為何那這4年以來我們有具體做了什麼那在哪一些重要的時間節點可以跟我們做一些說明"},{"start":8527.717,"end":8549.578,"text":"第一個我們為要說服這些會員國支持台灣我們做了一個很詳細的分析報告也就是我們加入CPP對大家的好處甚至對12個國家以及個別國家這第一點第二點呢這個是書面報告嗎書面報告嗎有一個研究報告這個研究報告是在什麼時候提交的"},{"start":8550.236,"end":8569.799,"text":"就是最近最近是多最近我想一個確切的時間應該最近半年左右因為我上任之後就啟動了這個調研您上任之後啟動的對所以可能就是在這一半年內這一年內已經有一個報告的結果送出一個報告然後呢那送到哪去呢"},{"start":8570.612,"end":8586.765,"text":"我們除了我們這個行政院有一個經貿談判辦公室所以我們在開始對各國在交涉我們都會跟他分析台灣參加對大家有什麼好處所以是個別的對各個國家來把這個研究報告做遞交"},{"start":8588.726,"end":8611.044,"text":"而不是說我們有一個管道然後呢我們有一個整體的報告當然跟他溝通的時候我們會看適合公佈什麼樣的資料所以你們就是呢針對各個國家那可能在整體的報告裡面抽出那對對方來說比較在意的事情然後去做溝通那這個溝通的就利用這個報告那像各國那有幾次的溝通記錄呢"},{"start":8612.753,"end":8626.488,"text":"我們就展開比如說我們跟大概有一半以上的國家其實他們都有表示支持我們參加那現在有一個關鍵就是要成立所謂的成立所謂的陸會工作小組這一步要進去我們才有可能進行實質的討論陸會工作小組什麼時候要成立"},{"start":8628.098,"end":8651.634,"text":"就是現在就在很多有六個國家申請那到底他們今年11月底你直接把六個國家講出來我覺得有很多事情除了台灣之外中國然後包括阿克斯達黎加烏拉圭等等所以這六個國家然後我們要做一個入會小組現在就是確定沒有說誰先申請誰先成立工作小組就看他們這個所謂的部長會議他們最後的這個"},{"start":8656.597,"end":8673.939,"text":"決定像去年就通過了用哥斯大黎加作為成立工作小組所以台灣要怎麼樣在這個工作小組裡面呢能夠變成是說去建立或是在什麼時間點上面要來做這一次因為我們都還沒有被成立陸會工作小組所以我們就去年加拿大做主席國的時候"},{"start":8674.239,"end":8680.365,"text":"他就通過了一個可以進行入會工作前的諮商我們現在已經跟有一些會員國已經展開實質的諮商哪一些會員國因為這涉及到比較機密那大概有幾個會員國可以說嗎"},{"start":8689.276,"end":8717.682,"text":"目前就是有一個已經進行蠻實質的討論一個一個但是歷史是很重要有一就有二沒有我覺得你們很可愛如果我不問的話我還以為這個十個就還是要有時候還是跟你們對話我覺得真的還是要詳細一點所以我再梳理一下整個過程就是我們有一份就您上任之後做了一份研究報告那這研究報告我們就向各個相關的會員國裡面然後我們有提出然後跟他們去做溝通"},{"start":8718.562,"end":8742.845,"text":"那再下一步呢我們就希望能夠成立就是說在加拿大它當時有這個去在制度上面架構的這個入會前的工作小組對不對那在這個工作小組上面我們的流程是好 現在為關鍵了因為它入會有所謂奧克蘭三原則就是你本身的自由貿易是符合高標準再來你沒有不良紀錄第三個就是共識覺可是共識覺怎麼解釋呢"},{"start":8743.405,"end":8766.353,"text":"好像變成說好像12個會員國都同意我們才成立工作小組我們認為不是是你認為我們不適合成立你要講理由因為我們的理由已經清楚了嘛對大家都有好處啊所以這個時候我們就排除政治的干擾那我們也在訴求幾個大國他的經濟體特別大的像日本 英國這些都是很有能量的那他如果能夠更清楚的表達這個共識決不是說誰否決權"},{"start":8771.375,"end":8783.326,"text":"而是不贊成成立工作小組的國家要說明台灣是哪裡不適合我了解 我們都很支持我下一步要問的就是說這個工作小組的成立會落在什麼時候"},{"start":8784.247,"end":8805.067,"text":"我們在今年底因為這個CPTPP在澳大利亞開會的時候會就要新成立陸會工作小組的國家來進行討論所以在今年的年底進行討論那你們的預估這樣子的一個討論是就是成功的機率大嗎或者是說有什麼挑戰我這樣問好了"},{"start":8805.928,"end":8829.708,"text":"會有什麼樣的挑戰因為去年只通過了哥斯大黎加但是哥斯大黎加的陸會事實上也遇到困難所以顯然今年我想CPTPP的這個年會他是需要有新的國家成為陸會的工作小組成立所以我們現在要爭取所以就是我們用工作小組成立的方式就先爭取我這樣看一下對不對先爭取成立工作小組是嗎"},{"start":8832.58,"end":8853.692,"text":"我們已經申請了我們要申請工作小組成立去談判我們申請成立工作小組這件事情不等於工作小組已經成立這樣還沒成立 對吧但是我們也產生諮商了先不要浪費時間開始諮商所以我知道剛剛有提過因為只把順序再梳理一次所以我們現在要申請成立工作小組"},{"start":8854.392,"end":8883.773,"text":"那工作小組能不能夠順利成立的話就是看今年年底的時候在這個大會上面然後大家的討論那如果能夠順利成立的如果沒能順利成立的話那該怎麼辦我們希望大會有一些新的解釋來放寬對於奧克蘭三原則的解釋特別是共識覺的定義我同意這樣對我們是最好的但是我只是想問一下就是我們總是會有一個就是好的如果好的話那是"},{"start":8884.193,"end":8909.603,"text":"因為如果說成立的話呢那我們就往這個方向邁進我覺得是跨出一步那我也會覺得很高興可是如果說年底這個工作小組的申請被否決的話那我們還有什麼樣的他沒有否決就是沒有排進去就是沒成功嘛就沒有成立成功嘛那你沒有成立成功那肯定是對方不管是說否決沒有共識或什麼等等但總之如果是這個方向的話那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":8911.105,"end":8936.644,"text":"我們進行跟12個國家都雙邊其實實質來談他們要什麼我們要什麼就是說我們怎麼樣去讓大家減少反對我們的力量所以這是成功的這個方向我要問的是說如果這些努力那它並沒有被認可在最後那可能因為各種原因什麼打壓什麼都有可能我們也很清楚知道我們的處境那如果沒有成功的申請"},{"start":8938.345,"end":8966.463,"text":"這個入會小組的話我們下一步驟我們要怎麼處置我們要怎麼辦我跟妳講我們就是同步展開實質諮商跟各國嘛雙邊之間另外一個就是我們希望大會也有一些有我的文字通過就是說比如說對共識覺的解釋避免不斷的被少數的人可是現在沒有人反對我們啦現在只是說有一半以上的國家都是主要的大國都支持可是怎麼樣我們也跟他們溝通比如說像日本 英國"},{"start":8967.764,"end":8994.671,"text":"這個是可以帶動的通常現在都不會說反對啦那到成不成立這個都是12月的時候大家在牌桌上才會攤開嘛那當然我希望我們是一切順利那可是我還是要講就是說我們今年那年底如果說申請加入那沒能成功的話那到再隔年我們有沒有更具體的就更進一步的具體方案還是說我們就維持先前我們的這個諮商啊"},{"start":8995.191,"end":9017.48,"text":"然後我們的研究報告的向各國的這個說帖就再重複一遍這個動作所以就您懂我意思嗎就如果年底的狀況對我們來說不是這麼符合我們的預期那我們是要再重複一次這個過程還是說我們有新的政策新的方向那可以再去突破那讓我們有可能加入CPTPP"},{"start":9018.499,"end":9036.179,"text":"對 就是委員講的我們就再接再厲因為我們實質上各國跟我們的雙邊的利益我們加入之後除了對它有利以外其他的可能會有一些互相之間要談的事情比如說有些國家我們可能有葫蘆跟棒棍"},{"start":9037.1,"end":9052.047,"text":"有些國家他大國他說你去跟其他國家都講好之後我也會支持可是我們要拜託他你可以發揮領導力出來帶頭這當然都是這個一個溝通的過程那我們希望能夠順利不過呢還是希望就是外交部這邊在要做好"},{"start":9053.968,"end":9069.646,"text":"不是最好的打算而已那最壞的打算之後的下一步我覺得也要做一個規劃因為呢我們台灣就是在這個加入CPTPP如果真的這麼容易的話那這幾年齁這個三年早就已經有一個初步的成果"},{"start":9070.367,"end":9096.342,"text":"那沒有他一定是遇到了一些實質上的問題怎麼樣去解決這個問題讓台灣有加入CPTPP的可能那我們不希望三年之後又下一個三年因為如果真的沒有辦法的話也希望政府能夠我們誠實以對我們碰到什麼問題可能是沒有辦法加入成功的那不要每一次呢都給了民眾很多的期望希望但最後呢一年又一年一年又一年的過去了我們還是沒有申請成功"},{"start":9097.282,"end":9101.43,"text":"所以希望我們在年底的時候可以聽到您的好結果好嗎好 我們來努力謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":9115.722,"end":9120.047,"text":"謝謝主席一起各位先進有請外交部的林部長還有經貿談判的總管經貿談判辦公室先談一下外交"},{"start":9134.329,"end":9161.201,"text":"林部長好 剛才你提了很多APEC的問題中國大陸明年要在深圳辦APEC他說要遵守一中原則才給我們參加請問你要如何 您不參加嗎我們已經有發新聞稿 予以駁斥平等參與是我們的權利請問你台北是不是一中原則"},{"start":9163.883,"end":9172.789,"text":"這個不能這樣解釋所以就一個潛意識台配各自表述嘛對不對 你認為潛意識台配不是一中原則他如果認為是 去就沒問題啦我們今年去林心理代團去就是潛意識台配啊那明年去深圳也是潛意識台配我們會籍的名稱這個沒有問題 委員這沒有問題我們講的時候他講一中原則是他用其他的方式啊"},{"start":9188.479,"end":9215.549,"text":"他會叫你口頭講 他也不會叫你口頭講啊他嘴巴裡講好了 你們已經遵守了因為你用錢是台幣 所以我就讓你來這樣最好啊我跟委員報告 因為APEC是共識決如果他這樣子這樣子就是扭曲 違反APEC的規定那我們共識決我們就否決啊 我們就反對啊這很多事情我們就不需要去支持他啦所以你就不去了不是啊 待會要去啊"},{"start":9217.278,"end":9219.199,"text":"其實是他在難過 又不是我們現在我要跟你講你沒有回答我問題我的意思是說怎麼因應他 我認為這個你可以大聲講潛意識台北更是表述他認為是一種原則就很好了我認為你認為不是 那就不是吧"},{"start":9239.881,"end":9258.058,"text":"那是我們的會籍名稱本來就是如此那跟一中原則沒有關係他要扭曲 誤解我們當然會予以駁斥如果他過頭了我們會予以反制怎麼反制啊因為他是共識爵所以你大會 人家不理你呢所以很多國家也會不理他"},{"start":9259.132,"end":9273.245,"text":"這樣子喔你這麼有把握我們上次在秘魯就是這樣子才逼得他那個書面承諾你今天要違反承諾那不是公然跟世界作對嗎你知不知道你上一任的部長外交部長吳釗燮他任內斷交幾國請委員告訴我八國他任內斷交八國林佳龍部長到現在為止斷交幾國"},{"start":9285.424,"end":9296.37,"text":"沒有沒有喔成績不錯啊但是現在有一股就危險了盛文森現任的總理說如果對手選贏就這個Mr."},{"start":9296.37,"end":9302.834,"text":"Friday他名字叫Friday 禮拜五這個說對手如果選贏會跟台灣斷交我更care的是斷交以後他跟我們貸款93億會變成呆帳你有沒有掌握這個訊息這個10月16號的新聞"},{"start":9314.724,"end":9330.968,"text":"我們對於我想聖文森的關係是得到跨黨派的支持對 他講的他說如果對手許哨他們的選舉我們也是予以尊重但是我想我們對台聖之間的關係也是有信心對 但是他說如果是對方贏他會跟台灣斷交那就好 那我就重要的問題在這裡了請問到現在為止我們因為斷交產生的斷交呆帳有多少錢"},{"start":9344.93,"end":9360.298,"text":"來我請同仁有沒有因為這個東西要統計啦因為各別國家的情形你要問那麼多是從什麼時候到什麼時候哪幾個國家累積到現在嘛累積到現在因為有一些是我們是我們是有權利的有些還在訴訟有的還在打官司嘛但是我就說2017年底外交代帳是150億還沒update有沒有來來來來我們長官"},{"start":9369.562,"end":9382.028,"text":"跟委員報告我們所有的財款我們都是用商業模式的方式進行所以我們都會有爭端解決跟這個我知道啦 你要打官司到我們就認為官司錢啊不回來啊沒有不會跟委員報告這些不是所謂的呆帳目前都在正常的還本還息當中跟委員報告150億以後2017年150億都還在拿本金嗎拿本金拿利息嗎沒有現在都在還本還息"},{"start":9398.717,"end":9412.796,"text":"你看一下不是這樣子喔然後在訴訟當中的部分而已啦部分不是全部啦有兩國我們在訴訟當中那訴訟我們也勝訴所以也都在正常的還本還息哪兩國"},{"start":9414.714,"end":9420.74,"text":"是很早以前早年斷交的在中非的兩國我就告訴林部長你要去追這個啊這個盛文森遙遙遇罪你要加油啊你不要學上一任部長任內斷八國如果你任內斷八國的話就剩兩國"},{"start":9434.332,"end":9439.456,"text":"最後一個問題你這次到歐洲去旁邊有個團跑去北約是怎麼樣要跟北約談說請北約來亞洲打造亞洲的北約版是不是我們台灣跟歐盟也好北約也好很多國家都有戰略溝通是有談到這個嗎說亞洲版的北約要成立這個嗎希望它成立有沒有"},{"start":9464.026,"end":9472.506,"text":"因為這個細節都因為涉及到很多雙邊往來我們的這個大家的一個默契或共識最少不排除嘛"},{"start":9473.578,"end":9483.08,"text":"沒有 我只是這個就涉及到一些雙邊往來的好 最後一個問題我們要遵守的一些最後一個問題這個國科會主委在APEC跟美方討論台灣模式是不是正式的蕭副總統說的台灣半導體的生態系都要移植到美國是不是這樣子不是移植是擴展我們台灣的國力到美國打造台美聯合艦隊那美國優先台灣也優先"},{"start":9503.564,"end":9509.346,"text":"你知道這個要多少錢嗎其實這個要多少廠商去 你知道嗎你也不知道嗎我知道我以前擔任過台中市長的時候那個中科就在那裡 我很清楚所以要幾家過去就是 百家以上嗎它這個一個產業聚落要形成一個產業鏈我跟委員講就是我那個新聯合國際的這個所謂新國際聯合艦隊以大代小"},{"start":9532.476,"end":9536.079,"text":"公私協力 軟硬結合內外兼修這四個變成佈局台灣成為經濟的部落國到美國去 打造台美聯合艦隊希望啦 我們大家一起努力我跟你講"},{"start":9547.486,"end":9563.897,"text":"不是每一個Supply Chain都像台積電現金滿滿的 不是他裡面來講很清楚他的資金有限他在台灣立個廠你要帶到美國去對他來講是不是很辛苦所以要打金價一起如果要出去那就沒錢啊"},{"start":9566.718,"end":9576.643,"text":"這個經貿辦可以回答一下這裡面我算一算就差不多原來講的要投資4千億美金換取關稅降低以及不要點家這樣講話對不對"},{"start":9582.498,"end":9597.152,"text":"剛剛委員的問題是說是不是用4000億對 就是這個supply chain整個生態系過去了嘛 對不對那這個就是外界一直講我們要投資4000億美金就從這裡來的 不是嗎"},{"start":9600.531,"end":9623.6,"text":"跟委員報告我們剛剛林部長也有提到我們台灣的模式投資美國不是要產業外移是要產業的外擴跟延伸金額多少金額多少金額多少錢是產業的力量的外擴跟延伸台灣模式他強調的是企業主席站起來我要下去了你告訴我金額多少"},{"start":9624.68,"end":9642.971,"text":"金額多少要投資金額你都沒有算過這個是有企業自主規劃然後政府會去整合然後增加對業者支持然後重要是通過台美政府跟政府之間的你要準備好這個答案啦外界一直想知道這樣子要投資多少啦謝謝接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":9657.799,"end":9658.725,"text":"主席好 我們歡迎外交部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":9667.376,"end":9692.498,"text":"部長好前幾天CNN有報導說部長您本人在聯合國大會期間有一個參敘然後本來想要邀請一些美國的官員來但是重量級都沒有出現然後我有看到外交部有澄清有澄清 澄清那種我都看了但是現在我覺得裡面還是有幾件事情提醒部長第一個CNN怎麼會無緣無故報導這個東西"},{"start":9694.292,"end":9708.016,"text":"他不是國內媒體他是美國的自由派左派的媒體他的消息來源是來自於哪裡你有稍微推敲一下嗎他是錯誤的訊息總之有消息來源那是誰要搞你有沒有可能是國安會的我覺得他這個外媒他怎麼樣去取得訊息會做這個報導因為其實我受邀去"},{"start":9721.899,"end":9743.955,"text":"紐約出席活動這個主辦單位也報導過現場也很多人所以怎麼會沒有去查證部長這個我都知道所以我說我看過你們的聲明但是關鍵就是你要了解一下CNN是美國的主流媒體怎麼會無緣故報導一則對你不利對你不利就是對台灣不利"},{"start":9745.897,"end":9772.316,"text":"謝謝確實都是那為什麼會這樣為什麼會這樣你沒有去了解一下那個都講到講成這樣了我們堂堂中華民國外交部長到美國去設宴美國人都不理大家都用行程很忙為由不來他還模擬我的心情說我很挫折真的是編故事也太離譜了如果是這樣當然挫折但是不然不要再歪樓了第一個你要去了解為什麼CNN會有這樣的報導"},{"start":9773.781,"end":9797.316,"text":"你又管道嘛就是認知作戰的一部分啊所以CNN被誰認知作戰他們不管是故意或是不小心他就成為認知作戰的一部分被誰嘛 被誰認知作戰被誰認知作戰他的報導者啊不是啦 部長我跟你講 我們的外交常常面臨到這樣的狀況就是當我們外交受挫 我認為啦CNN報導這個事情"},{"start":9798.917,"end":9823.067,"text":"是外交上一個小挫折他連查證都沒有也沒來問我你可以罵他我都沒有意見就亂報你可以抱怨這個Google就有了你可以抱怨我去紐約這個事情連主辦單位還有一些像會書的總統因為今天是答今天是尋答如果你很委屈你開直播好不好你開直播去講講兩個小時沒有差但是你要了解的事不是說現在很爛被認知作戰"},{"start":9824.187,"end":9836.903,"text":"就沒事了因為你是外交部長你要去了解為什麼這個狀況嘛人家現在為什麼這個報導嘛這第一件事情啦第二件事情是你現在不要再抱怨了第二個"},{"start":9840.346,"end":9867.649,"text":"部長 自從您上任之後外媒啊 批評台灣特別多以前蔡英文總統的時候沒有這麼多而且不是美國媒體喔日本媒體也是喔從朝日新聞 獨賣新聞產經新聞國傳師你的認識你如果自我感覺良好當然認識跟我不同嘛但是朝日獨賣產經從自由派到保守派 日本媒體對台灣都在我們的領導人都在批評"},{"start":9868.75,"end":9890.733,"text":"而且小立遠這樣講那結果你覺得沒差所以有時候我覺得如果外交沒有沒有病識感的話是最嚴重的不是澄清的問題是說以前沒有這個現象為什麼現在才有嘛你發現這個現象除了澄清之外你要去了解到底我們發生什麼事情為什麼那麼多媒體以前沒有這樣一直批評台灣現在那麼多嘛"},{"start":9891.834,"end":9908.548,"text":"關鍵是在要去了解基本上肯定還是比較多啦肯定多對啊好那你就活在那樣自己的世界就好了嘛如果我們在跟妳建議什麼或是把問題跟妳講妳就說沒有我很棒我很讚我很好那我覺得我覺得這樣子自我感覺良好的部長那我們的外交就這樣啊"},{"start":9909.81,"end":9939.395,"text":"就這樣啦你如果都那麼自我感覺良好的話就是這樣了嘛那確實就是我剛剛講的都是有憑有據也不是我掰出來的嘛所以你當然你要去了解說那為什麼現在是會有出現這個狀況那我知道外交部現在很積極在經營右派媒美國右派媒體啦都找一些跟那個讓美國再次偉大派Mega派的那些Podcast或者是自媒體的或者是一些主持人這種媒體希望訪問希望透過他們去影響川普嘛那"},{"start":9939.875,"end":9960.331,"text":"你們現在對於美國的左派媒體或自由派媒體還有在持續經營嗎全面經營不分左右所以有這樣的經營還有這樣的消息出來我覺得那就要再加強還要再努力了因為CNN的消息來源你說認知作戰那到底誰放的是國安會放的嗎"},{"start":9961.272,"end":9969.355,"text":"我們現在都發現你好像跟吳釗燮不合嘛要去了解誰放他明明就錯誤連查證都沒有那誰放的好不要再抱怨了誰放的然後第二個一定也有美國當地的消息那美國人為什麼要弄我們嘛你要去了解嘛如果有誤會要澄清嘛如果你覺得美國人也在對CNN政治作戰在對台灣不利的話那更要去溝通啊而不是我們躲在台灣說我被認知作戰了就當作沒看到嘛"},{"start":9990.424,"end":10016.642,"text":"我們一定要有所因應然後再來就是你能不能夠澄清第一時間也沒澄清啊CNN報導之後隔了兩天之後台灣媒體報之後才澄清太慢了嘛太慢就會讓人家覺得說外交部是有點心虛否則第一時間像我們的政府很喜歡找一些那種假消息是大家都沒看過的假消息第一時間大動作澄清大家想說有這個我們都不知道但是像CNN的報導就澄清得很慢也是很奇怪"},{"start":10017.907,"end":10032.884,"text":"這個部分要加強還有我想延續一下剛剛那個賴思寶委員的問題因為也是外媒透露這就比較正面就是說這個林佳龍部長九月份有去歐洲參訪說是部長本人親自策劃是您親自策劃的嗎"},{"start":10034.452,"end":10048.405,"text":"我自己出去我當然自己策劃原來是這樣子因為那個媒體報導的把你解滿偉大原來只是這樣而已好 那親自策 親自策劃然後然後去了捷克 荷蘭 義大利然後說要跟歐盟"},{"start":10049.398,"end":10065.728,"text":"還要擬定一個SCADS的戰略包括半導體 人工智慧 國防跟監偵四大領域然後那個媒體報導還講說那個林佳龍部長跟吳志忠市長是親歐派的跟蕭美琴還有吳釗燮親美派不一樣"},{"start":10066.428,"end":10091.482,"text":"你們現在認為說要積極發展跟歐洲的關係要加強 但是我跟美國我也是在美國念書我們台美關係很穩定發展這個不矛盾了對 不矛盾我也覺得不矛盾但媒體是這樣寫的要加強歐洲但不是說台美關係不重要對 所以這個媒體也被認知作戰了然後我是想問一下我們現在你還 那時候徐思簡徐思簡他也到了"},{"start":10092.438,"end":10103.305,"text":"北約去了嘛剛剛賴斯堡委員有問說是不是要發展亞洲北約那我是想問一下你們現在講說要跟歐洲發展國防的合作請問一下是要跟歐洲買武器嗎還是怎麼樣的當然溝通完之後可以合作的項目譬如就涉及不同的部會啊譬如說是要比如渦輪機我們就從溝通到投資合作到現在我想這個是就是一個項目"},{"start":10121.858,"end":10148.474,"text":"那我跟委員講最重要是我售銷去兩個智庫演講的東西的內容我可以提供你的參考一個是在波蘭的華沙安全論壇另外一個是在荷蘭的海牙戰略研究中心這兩個因為我提出了全面性的台歐合作的計畫包括歐洲要再工業化再武裝歐洲那我們台灣可以扮演的角色我比較關心的是剛剛艾瑟爾委員關心半導體啦我也是同時關心半導體跟國防啦"},{"start":10149.955,"end":10157.48,"text":"就是到底要怎麼跟歐洲合作國防的部分他們是要賣武器給我們還是要他們會提供技術嗎協助我們海昆號現在平井嗎"},{"start":10158.843,"end":10183.221,"text":"還是要發展亞洲北約咧到底是哪一個文鮑我們是戰略溝通戰略溝通是什麼戰略就是針對共同的溫泉就是大家聊聊天然後我們可以合作的空間這個事宜展開之後有相關部會會後續他們可以去對接好 這是很抽象那個媒體把你講得很神但是你講得很抽象我私底下在跟你分享媒體被認知作戰了謝謝謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10189.4,"end":10192.582,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 請一下林佳龍部長請部長就備巡台部長 你是戰龍嗎"},{"start":10220.119,"end":10223.207,"text":"我是佳龍如果按照文字應該是好龍啦戰貓 戰龍"},{"start":10226.98,"end":10232.682,"text":"我是林佳龍 就是顧名思義要耐死一點你是溫柔的龍就佳龍佳龍我看你現在已經轉化成戰龍了剛才葉元之委員特別提到CNN報導那個報導你竟然跟他講說這樣的是一個認知作戰那他說這不是CNN報導這不是台灣的媒體報導你說這就是一個認知作戰好歹CNN是"},{"start":10257.216,"end":10262.121,"text":"美國的一個主流媒體雖然川普跟CNN的關係非常差他告這個CNN但是你作為一個外交部長在立法院接受質詢針對這個事情直接指涉CNN是認知作戰就這一個報導本身我覺得這就是CNN報導啊我覺得這個問題很大我們希望他更正"},{"start":10279.497,"end":10292.62,"text":"CNN過去你可以去要求他更正但是你說他是配合認知作戰這就不妥啊這是不是失言請問一下部長是不是失言CNN過去對台對台來講也算是算是友好的啊那媒體容或有一些報導你認為報導的失誤或者相關的評論但是你把CNN現在歸類為說他配合認知作戰就這個報導本身是一個"},{"start":10306.224,"end":10310.946,"text":"認知錯占的一部分他是不是不小心或者是怎麼樣因為他可以很輕易的查證那也許有疏失但是就整個他配合誰認知錯占我想我的不是說是哪一個媒體認知錯占而是說這背後有一個勢力你在這裡就是嚴重的失言其實老實說部長我覺得你腦筋很不清楚你剛剛還得意洋洋說策劃"},{"start":10328.951,"end":10330.954,"text":"去歐洲訪問非常好你到智庫歐洲的智庫去演講也非常好結果被外媒披露說我們另外一個團去訪問了北約總部那剛才媒體也有問你請問一下外媒報導是事實嗎"},{"start":10349.261,"end":10371.417,"text":"哪一點我們在歐洲的訪問團裡面其中有一團到北約總部訪問因為這前後很多團那我們在做戰略溝通也有一團比如說我在波蘭所以確實有到北約總部訪問嗎我們不予證實也不予否認所以也就是默認就不予評論部長"},{"start":10373.439,"end":10377.32,"text":"我要講說你說對歐洲的關係很重要我們完全同意啊所以我剛才說我們去歐洲訪問外交部長去演講或者我們拓展跟歐洲各國的這個相關的關係對外關係或者經貿合作採購投資相互的往來都非常好但是我想請問一下台海之間難道還不夠危險嗎"},{"start":10401.988,"end":10409.852,"text":"世界各國的媒體都報導台灣台海是現在全世界非常危險的地方北約是什麼組織啊北約是經貿組織嗎他是單純的他的那個組織是軍事同盟是對抗俄羅斯的軍事同盟"},{"start":10420.253,"end":10431.342,"text":"我想請問一下我們已經有一個這麼強大的中國的軍事威脅我請問你 你今天要去得罪俄羅斯幹什麼北約組織是一個軍事同盟台灣有能力去跟北約軍事同盟嗎"},{"start":10439.943,"end":10442.865,"text":"我們需要一連串去得罪這些核武大國嗎所以我覺得你們腦筋真的不清楚發展外交發展經貿合作我們舉雙手贊成不要去搞那種軍事對抗台灣沒有這種條件去跟人家核武大國去搞軍事對抗你是要透露什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":10463.103,"end":10475.431,"text":"你是要透露什麼樣的訊息你覺得台灣的軍事威脅還不夠嗎所以我真的覺得這種都是腦筋不清楚好大喜功然後以為我們現在要提高國防支出3%不夠 5% 10%俄羅斯也來跟我們對抗好嗎"},{"start":10483.342,"end":10499.139,"text":"另外 請教一下因為這次川習會結束之後因為他們又透露一個訊息川普明年4月要到中國訪問那我想請問一下因為之前"},{"start":10500.22,"end":10521.981,"text":"我們賴總統一直希望能夠藉由出訪的機會過境美國東岸但是呢一直的說法是因為會與川習會的關係所以美國有一些疑慮所以我們沒有辦法過境這個美國東岸那我想請問一下部長"},{"start":10524.045,"end":10548.918,"text":"川習會之後 雖然終於川習會了可是他現在又來一個卡一個川習 就是川普要到美國訪問中國 對不起 到中國訪問那所以我們在這半年之間我們有可能突破讓賴總統能夠過境美國出訪我們的友邦嗎我講的是東南"},{"start":10552.012,"end":10569.003,"text":"報告委員 元首出訪都是我們外交部的重要政務我們也都會持續在評估規劃但至於說決定以及對外的說明由總統府他們目前我們沒有什麼訊息可以提供所以繼續規劃中"},{"start":10572.52,"end":10574.481,"text":"繼續規劃中當然我們一定會評估嘛因為這個我請問部長因為有川習會的關係所以使得外界都認為說因為當時蔡英文總統非常快速的就過境美國出訪邦交國那麼"},{"start":10591.87,"end":10593.691,"text":"那麼現在專行會結束之後那以現在的情勢你認為在短期內你可以成功的去規劃你剛剛不講你都策劃嗎那你可以策劃或者規劃然後我們賴總統可以過境美國出訪嗎"},{"start":10610.947,"end":10626.394,"text":"元首出訪是外交部重要的政務我們會持續的推動至於說如果有具體的決定或者是相關的安排那會由總統府對外來說明好 那另外請問一下川習會後你覺得台美關係是變得更好還是可能會有所受影響或變得更壞一點"},{"start":10636.278,"end":10655.183,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實我在這裡備詢我就在講台美關係要有信心我們對於像川習會這些APEC開會我們是要關心但不必過度擔心那現在事後也證明我想很多過去的一些不確定性甚至有一些大家很擔心的地方已經現在很清楚就是這個因為沒有談到台灣大家鬆一口氣"},{"start":10660.885,"end":10665.768,"text":"不過因為不曉得啦就說我剛剛講說明年四月出訪行程搞不好又會申辯這也說不一定啦那只是說你未來這個川普又出訪的行程那麼可能未來半年我們可能還是處於一個不確定因素比較多的那我想請問一下國際情勢永遠有它不確定的地方對 沒有錯我想請問一下喔在川習會之後因為呢中美兩國的防長也見面了是"},{"start":10689.804,"end":10700.476,"text":"我覺得這個對於消除台海之間的一些這個危機其實我認為有利不要有做誤判但是呢美國其實先是叫戰爭部他的戰爭部部長赫格賽斯他發文說他"},{"start":10707.063,"end":10712.684,"text":"認為美中關係現在是前所未有的良好那我想請問一下在這樣的一個敘述之下你認為會不會影響到台美關係台灣是不是會受影響報告委員美中關係美台關係可以是平行的所以我們也不認為說美中關係不好就對台灣好那美中關係如果好也可能可以對台灣好那取決於我們台灣跟美國的關係怎麼加強"},{"start":10736.775,"end":10755.308,"text":"所以你至少到目前為止你不認為川習會之後或者是赫格塞茲他的發文之後那麼台美關係有受到任何影響對 我跟委員報告至少沒有意外另外我們更確定了包括他們的談話不斷跟我們溝通的也都如原來溝通的內容這樣子發展在川習會之後美國有跟我們報告相關的所有我們都有這樣的這個管道所有的資訊都有掌握"},{"start":10766.637,"end":10769.319,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":10795.919,"end":10823.302,"text":"部長好 外交是一體的外交是讓我們中華民國可以被世界看到所以不分黨派我們要共同支持外交但是面對到真正的問題我們也必須要看到問題面對問題才能解決問題不是一句說認知作戰可以帶過我覺得這是本席剛剛在幾個委員跟你質詢的時候你回答的會讓本席覺得是說那我們到底有沒有掌握確實的問題"},{"start":10825.009,"end":10847.284,"text":"CNN的這一個報導現在我也看到了我們之後有陳青陳青講是說其實不是 真相翻轉還有好多的媒體也都寫說其實那一天很多的來賓有來你也有跟他們有碰面等等相關部分 是不是是嗎對那為什麼會出現這一篇新聞"},{"start":10848.274,"end":10867.905,"text":"我跟委員講CNN他沒有去查證嘛因為主辦單位也都有貼文啊CNN沒有查證那篇報導有幾位記者寫那篇報導有幾位記者寫你知道嗎幾位我是不知道他問過幾位或者是他們幾位那篇報導據名就有幾位記者他是幾個記者一起寫的報導他怎麼去編輯上怎麼去變成一篇報導部長您先聽本席把問題問完"},{"start":10877.433,"end":10891.008,"text":"國會殿堂上外交部長公然講CNN的記者沒有查證就這則新聞報導沒有查證因為可以很明顯就查證了我們要確認的是說那四位記者裡面他們都具名的報導"},{"start":10892.41,"end":10917.581,"text":"據名的掛名我們有去詢問這四位來確認是說你們到底怎麼會報導出來你們為什麼沒有查證那麼重要的事情中華民國不重要嗎台灣不重要嗎結果你CNN那麼國際媒體可以不查證然後報導一個猶如我們國格的新聞因為他不能查證這很嚴重啊馬上就查證了那所以問題在哪裡就他們疏失啊"},{"start":10918.061,"end":10938.398,"text":"他們疏失所以他們四個記者沒有人查證所以CNN就是完全疏失然後後面還有認知作戰因為這事實的問題這不是評價的問題還有認知作戰背後有一個認知作戰的集團所以認知作戰集團把CNN給收買了被運用了但是就這個事情來講把錯的CNN收買了把這四個記者給收買了你不能這樣講你不會過度推論就這個事實的認定"},{"start":10943.502,"end":10970.517,"text":"事實的認定明顯錯誤來 部長他沒有去查證來 部長可能是被設計了或怎麼樣好 被設計了事後也可以再澄清道歉這四位記者被設計了那有沒有澄清道歉目前還沒有好 我們再交涉其中這四位記者本席看了他有掛資深的安全記者國安記者甚至有一位記者叫Will他是CNN駐台北資深記者"},{"start":10971.658,"end":10995.647,"text":"那事發一個禮拜了他竟然住台北啊我們外交部有沒有請他來喝咖啡來聊一下我們有請同仁去要求澄清啊那有沒有問因為你竟然都敢在國會殿堂裡面公然講說CNN完全沒有查證報導一個子虛烏有的新聞那本席就要問是說我們後續的處理因為這很嚴重喔"},{"start":10996.721,"end":11010.317,"text":"部長本席有一說一這並不複雜啦因為對 就是不複雜所以說你敢這樣子公開的指責CNN我是點出啦並且你也講了這四個記者他們沒有查證那其中一個記者就在台北啊那到目前為止我們要求他的什麼"},{"start":11014.622,"end":11018.526,"text":"我們的國傳司跟外媒記者都有在聯繫來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":11030.097,"end":11055.857,"text":"我本身就已經有表示說希望他們能夠針對錯誤的報導來澄清嘛因為這個包括像因為您講的其實是一個很嚴重的事情他把那個訊息的information flow把它弄出來之後就知道哪個環節被放大被扭曲本席如果說證實他們都沒有查證他們自己關在辦公室裡面隨便亂編文章然後有辱我們國格該提告要提告"},{"start":11056.858,"end":11079.879,"text":"因為這是一個很嚴重的事情但是我覺得現在比較比較危險的地方是可能有事情或者說他可能擴大但是部長在國會殿堂裡面講的是說他們是完全子虛烏有他們是捏造的不是事實然後結果具名的記者因為我覺得您這樣講可能還會傷害到因為你本身有當過新聞局長所以你也很了解"},{"start":11080.62,"end":11091.792,"text":"可能對於記者的他的聲譽他的報導都有一定喔我覺得這樣子你搞不好會到這邊是CNN記者要來告外交部喔因為你剛講那句話給我10秒鐘來 請這個報導說我在某個餐廳請客沒有人來嘛"},{"start":11098.559,"end":11113.495,"text":"可是這個餐廳就不是我請客他沒有講哪個餐廳所以這個事情Google就可以查到所以他去引用人說我因為這個做主人沒有人來賞光我很難過然後非常的有挫敗"},{"start":11115.357,"end":11122.244,"text":"我就林佳龍在這裡啊你來問我就好啦他沒有訪問你去採測你的心情這個我覺得不應該但是你說完全把這篇報導講說它是一個捏造甚至講說後面是認知作戰我覺得這一點真的是好來我不是說西安在認知作戰我是說"},{"start":11134.315,"end":11163.323,"text":"我要說明喔不是我說CNN是背後在川習會跟APEC前後有一個集團包括很多其他媒體他們也在操作他們因為媒體他是報導他可能沒有去了解這個背景好來那我再請教因為所以我要正中呈現我並不是說某個媒體我是有一個認知作用的集團在背後操作我們來看國內媒體那國內媒體上報在10月10號也有一個新聞他直接我覺得寫得也很硬也很重"},{"start":11163.883,"end":11187.182,"text":"也很危險講說賴清德國安團隊鬧國際笑話駐台使節關切吳釗燮跟林佳龍不和任職作戰嗎我們都有分工啊國安會有國安的角色外交部有外交部的角色所以這篇報導可信度多高你說報導哪一點就是駐台使節都關切吳釗燮跟林佳龍不和啊然後國安團隊鬧國際笑話這是他們的這個"},{"start":11191.826,"end":11209.148,"text":"有沒有查證沒有查證他也沒有查證對啊哇 那這樣我們的媒體現在在民進黨政府的督導之下所有都可以沒有查證然後寫了國安團隊鬧國際笑話那我們有沒有對上報有做提告"},{"start":11210.094,"end":11232.251,"text":"我跟委員報告 有時候外媒的第一報導在我們國內擴大扭曲不是 我在講是10月10號上報的報導我是跟委員講 我們陸續把資訊流查出來之後有一些環節是國內的媒體去選擇性的去解釋甚至是扭曲把它放大"},{"start":11232.972,"end":11252.694,"text":"我們要知道媒體試讀我們沒有去說哪一個點就是這個問題而是說它的這個整個流程是背後有這個認知作戰的痕跡我們也需要了解媒體試讀讓讀到的人不會被現在有一些政治人物是建立在錯誤的訊息事實上在批評我們"},{"start":11253.635,"end":11266.163,"text":"所以我們見不到我們想見的人等於開宗明義就講我覺得到目前為止你這樣講如果全部都是推給認知作戰其實某種程度上才是對於我們外交辛苦的同仁的一個努力的抹煞"},{"start":11267.557,"end":11297.006,"text":"因為已經出現那麼多問題了本席再一次在外交官方委員會跟我們說外交同仁也來肯定因為我們過去也接觸過很多第一線優秀外交同仁但是如果說現在是上面的人互相的針鋒相對互相的針鋒之觸互相的在不和結果你大事化小小事化我幾位報導出來了還在講說沒有這是認知作戰沒有這個是捏造國際也是捏造國內也是捏造那我們還要信什麼"},{"start":11300.253,"end":11317.947,"text":"那部長最後啦好 抱歉一分鐘但是這個我也想說因為外交部長其實你的發言一言一行因為你畢竟是中華民國外交部你的黨派是什麼那都是黨派但是你的外交部可是你也有提到最近社群媒體平台也有提到"},{"start":11319.224,"end":11340.565,"text":"要力挺我們某一位院內的委員他爭取更高的職位人民服務那上午被問到的時候你也講說政治不離開人性啊然後要力挺不能被惡意抹黑啊那請教你的情資比較多啊那現在我們林委員是被誰惡意抹黑"},{"start":11342.113,"end":11360.423,"text":"我覺得參政權也是人權嘛那他現在有資格去參與初選我們就是尊重制度嘛對啊 因為我是一個政治人物我並不是選務人員所以我自己對於不管是就像說如果紅委員"},{"start":11361.663,"end":11382.117,"text":"你有什麼委屈或者是什麼樣我也是會覺得為你加油啊我一定在這邊義正嚴實因為本地有委屈但是你講啦你說力挺人家不要被惡意抹黑啊那我想請教一下那一定是我說不管你是善意的批評或惡意的抹黑其實我們政治人物都承擔很大的壓力所以現在林委員有沒有被惡意抹黑"},{"start":11382.659,"end":11394.492,"text":"我覺得讓他說話嘛因為這兩兆併成不能只是片面支持而在他說話之前都是另外一邊的話那今天他要說話我們要保障他說話的權利不管你同不同意他說話的內容"},{"start":11396.028,"end":11422.325,"text":"這是我一生為民主奮鬥我從學生時代我就對於人權啊我對每一個人啊都有就是說為他自己為社會去發聲的權利我覺得這個很重要部長這是你言論自由本席尊重我也不干涉因為這是你言論自由但本席真的是提醒你現在的工作一定是先國家再黨派這個人所以我自己對外交部長的角色我都是權力一副"},{"start":11423.846,"end":11443.319,"text":"就是要對得起外交部長的責任那還有真的不是一句話認知作戰啦真的面對問題解決問題才能夠真真正正的幫中華民國走出來我一定會把外交部長做好那我也是一個人除了做官做事也要會做人好 謝謝好"},{"start":11451.317,"end":11470.748,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請林倩琦林倩琦林倩琦委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員黃仁委員黃婕委員"},{"start":11472.449,"end":11485.347,"text":"林毅君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面以及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內已書面答覆"},{"start":11488.331,"end":11497.137,"text":"那在這裡我們也希望外交部主責是外交的部分那對於在國內有一些紛紛擾擾剛剛一直在提到對於CNN的這個報導如果他是有嚴重的一個錯誤我們要求外交部應該正式的去要求譴責或澄清"},{"start":11509.725,"end":11528.112,"text":"而不是私底下這樣做而且是在國會殿堂因為大家都會關注嘛那你用這樣的一個角度如果連這個都處理不好你外交要怎麼處理好那就這個部分我們要求外交部要有一個具體的作為然後提供給本委員會本次會議到此結束 散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2589c693017ba08d86e3cb72f09a57cc5ac005464e7b8fa973eb26cf665c94cb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:49:26 - 11:58:15","影片長度":"00:08:49","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： 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已經有規定上市櫃有 就是非上市 沒有上市的他不發就不發嗎 股東會就否決掉咧不是 我們鼓勵薪資上漲 適用中小企業發展條例現在有一些稅務上的優惠跟鼓勵 希望可以加薪"},{"start":268.714,"end":291.504,"text":"並沒有訂出當然另外就是剛剛提到的最低工資每年都會調漲那現在已經連續10年都在調漲最低工資跟這個員工的酬勞有一樣嗎就是他的所得至少都是他的所得嘛但是你要訂出標準你要補助他們的話董事會要訂出到底幾%這幾%也沒有明確性"},{"start":294.516,"end":308.873,"text":"因為現在提到的就是說同業的加薪比例同業的加薪比例這個範圍同業大概是什麼樣的同業就是因為太空泛了所以我們公司把它制定一個標準的模式的制度出來"},{"start":309.394,"end":325.402,"text":"你看你要給他們發的那個酬勞幾%也沒有明確性說你公司賺多少錢累計的話你賺了1000萬你發多少1億你發多少這個比例要出來不然的話董事會就決定了不發都可以了"},{"start":326.85,"end":351.616,"text":"原來2351就有規定張誠要明定他的一定的定額或是比率這對上市公司 那非上市公司呢原來現在公司法就有 所有的公司是適用所以這個比率他在張誠要明定那明定的話其實他不能不執行怎麼樣明定 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直接切入正題之前我一直在追蹤一些相關的弊案2020年的時候"},{"start":31.175,"end":48.838,"text":"我揭露我們那個時候可能是內機內控出現嚴重問題的大同公司搞了一堆狗皮倒灶的事情有貪污的有行賄的有圍標的有詐素得標的搞了半天那個是2020年那個時候就公開揭露了"},{"start":49.776,"end":68.617,"text":"拖了很久啦2024年台北地方法院做判決判決到現在還沒確定啦判決到現在還沒確定不過判決出來的結果大概貪污洗錢妨礙投票等等都已經一審被判有罪那也一直拖拖到2025年5月24號因為公共工程委員會"},{"start":69.918,"end":94.654,"text":"可能有一些程序他要進行判決還沒有確定但公共工程委員會該做的事情他也是做了就宣布他從今年5月24號接下來要停權三年那個時候大同公司遭工程會停權三年了以後他的電力事業群還特別發了重訊開了記者會所以接下來可能沒有辦法再參與政府表案"},{"start":96.107,"end":122.669,"text":"那我們持續在追蹤發現大龍公司其實遭停權影響好像也不是很大他還是持續取得政府標案其中有兩件是台電的那因為依照政府採購法的規定有特殊需求的時候經過上級機關核准那就雖然是停權了那還是繼續讓他用那第一個問題是請教一下經濟部經濟部核准的特殊需要是什麼"},{"start":124.27,"end":143.406,"text":"因為這是上級機關許可所以這個不是台電的問題這是經濟部的問題你要了解一下是不是沒有關係因為時間的關係我不要占人家的時間部長跟總經理都看到了把你們怎麼上簽的怎麼准的公文"},{"start":144.335,"end":168.375,"text":"能夠回覆給我一個禮拜之內可以嗎應該可以吧這個沒有問題啦原則上是這可以嗎這件的話我大概所知道的是如果因為最近的那個電機類的設備啊在全球大家都在搶啊所以設備的那個採購啊都有延宕所以呢所以停權也沒有關係劣跡斑斑的廠商也沒有關係"},{"start":169.212,"end":179.754,"text":"其實這一件我確實情形我不知道但是如果是沒有關係所以我給你時間回去瞭解第二個第二個這個是有經過經濟部點頭的這個經濟部要說明你為什麼開了這個後門讓一個被停權三年的公司不用被停權這個我很狐疑第二件就更離譜了第二件事連報上級機關都沒有遵循"},{"start":196.351,"end":223.51,"text":"報上級機關沒有准許來看一下這個是採購機關是台電南部發電廠得標的廠商是大同股份有限公司高雄分公司那我看了以後我就覺得很無意大同公司都被停權了經濟部也沒有核准為什麼他還可以得標總經理知道嗎這個是上個月大概前兩個禮拜發生的事10月23號的標案這一個標案"},{"start":225.521,"end":248.148,"text":"呃 這個標案 我所了解是這樣子啦它有些標案是延續性的齁 就是等於是連續好幾年那是 101條款 101條款只是針對新的標案不能繳費 這個如果是說已經是 又是新的我可能是 了解一下好 你們一樣回去了解一下 這個要給大家一個答案啦齁 不要讓大家誤會說好像 明明被停權了"},{"start":249.228,"end":260.084,"text":"是關係特別好還幫他開後門甚至上級機關都沒有准許上級機關沒有准許這個我查過了跟下面這個標案不太一樣就連經濟部都不知道"},{"start":262.625,"end":282.043,"text":"總公司遭到庭權分供是當然不能取得標外這法律上面相一定的解釋啦你們回去查清楚了以後用公文回覆給我這兩個是什麼狀況好不好第二個問題排言率呢我追了非常的久啦那當然這也不是我也不曉得該怎麼講這到底是誰的鍋"},{"start":284.27,"end":295.697,"text":"之前經濟部部長王美花一樣在備詢台上面做了很多保證 做了很多改革但是全體國人看到的是這家公司拿納稅的錢在虧然後錢全部進了民進黨權貴的口袋"},{"start":300.928,"end":326.408,"text":"那相關的司法訴訟 刑事責任的追究 那要追究陳啟玉他自己到底要怎麼面對那這個是他自己刑事責任的問題 那我關心的是從納稅人的角度 台研綠能一開始為了協助國家發展綠能 話講得很好聽當地居民大家都支持結果搞了半天以後發現不僅僅是破壞環境 破壞生態 還在胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":327.889,"end":355.191,"text":"虧一虧納稅人的然後錢放到綠色權貴的口袋那下一個問題是這個事情現在要怎麼收尾因為我看財報我看財報到今年Q2的財報出來他的股東權益是負值股東權益是負值是什麼意思我相信部長應該很清楚部長看懂財報絕對沒有問題那股東權益是負值那這家公司要不要依公司法宣告破產請教部長"},{"start":356.479,"end":374.276,"text":"我可能要了解一下 我們國營是有人在嗎 還是怎麼樣來 認定一下公司法第211條公司虧損達時收支本二分之一 董事會應該最後一次股東會報告 這沒問題但是公司的資產不足抵償所付的債務的時候 董事會應急宣告破產"},{"start":375.287,"end":401.342,"text":"那如果代表公司的董事違反前兩項的規定的話這個還有處罰的規定所以現在台研綠能現在的計畫是什麼錢要繼續丟下去要辦增資嗎報委我想我們也一併好不好因為本來就要提供剛剛那個兩個案子這個案子到底要怎麼走因為大家很關心嘛因為第一個我們是法治國家嘛特別這個是范工股的公司現在搞到"},{"start":402.262,"end":419.361,"text":"已經資產沒有辦法處理負債了那有沒有要依法宣告破產還是說沒有要依法宣告破產 打算要繼續投錢下去這個事情我相信台灣社會大眾很關心啦 國會也應該監督這個部分到底要怎麼走 移民署沒有回覆可以嗎好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d213c5811475ace3986e3cb72f09a57cc5ac005464e7b8fa9777988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:58:31 - 12:05:56","影片長度":"00:07:25","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： \n（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員許宇甄等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公司法第二百二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鄭正鈐等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員何欣純等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）本院委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條之一及第四百四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（一）\t本院委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n（一）本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n以上全案於11月5日(星期三)進行合併詢答，11月6日(星期四)處理。【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T11:58:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T12:05:56+08:00","duration":445,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.709093750000001,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.113468750000003,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.21346875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.49596875,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.76159375,"end":32.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.31284375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.23284375,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.017218750000005,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.70096875,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.62409375,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.84284375,"end":99.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.79596875,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.91409375,"end":100.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.08284375000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.69034375000001,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.93846875000001,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.44034375000001,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.89346875000001,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.62721875000001,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.27596875,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.55409375000002,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.75596875000002,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.17784375000002,"end":140.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.64159375,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.08409375000002,"end":147.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.61659375000002,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.27659375000002,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.74909375000001,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.41909375,"end":196.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.12784375,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.42659375000002,"end":196.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.99596875,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.08846875,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":224.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.17721875,"end":234.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.11721875,"end":231.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.47534375,"end":242.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.80409375000002,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.17034375000003,"end":249.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":250.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.94534375,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.87346875000003,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.95784375000002,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.10096875000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.11784375000002,"end":254.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.26971875,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.07909375,"end":259.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.57596875,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.98096875000005,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.29159375,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.27034375,"end":315.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.02971875000003,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.87284375,"end":310.21034375},{"speaker":"SP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那我們是不是有請經濟部部長我們請工部長蔡文豪部長"},{"start":22.793,"end":40.736,"text":"部長我看到我們經濟部今年的針對明年預算的一些計畫那其中有一個是叫做加速矽光子技術自主及促進產業鏈的一個成型那我們知道未來就要像台積電的先進封裝讓COWAS事實上"},{"start":41.637,"end":59.342,"text":"就這個光通訊一直整合大概是接下來整個AI的半導體的下一個階段所以矽光子的一個技術一直整合怎麼把光跟電"},{"start":61.302,"end":85.755,"text":"變成一個傳輸傳導的一個功能所以大概這一塊是未來產業已經看到了產業的需求但是人才的需求似乎還沒有跟上所以我們這一次有一個說要促進產業鏈的成形中我們要強調的就是要有一個產官的一個演的一個合作那我想經濟部在這一塊你們未來要扮演怎樣的角色呢"},{"start":86.992,"end":99.201,"text":"包委員事實上我們現在剛剛提到的這個聯盟的部分我們就是怎麼樣透過這個工業來協助這個Semi它成立西光石聯盟"},{"start":100.745,"end":116.573,"text":"然後技術端來講的話就是開發出這個高速矽光石的關鍵技術尤其是在矽光的晶片還有這個封裝的基板的部分也推動這個整個實驗室藉由我們有一個Aplus計畫來協助廠商開發"},{"start":118.134,"end":145.195,"text":"那人才的部分國科會他會負責整個學界人才培養大概200人那我們藉由這個法輪計轉培養人才那學的部分還有學校的部分中正大學或者是其他學校也希望開闊這個我知道我們中正大學正在努力在爭取因為目前大概研究單位都是在公園院大學端這一塊大概是未來需要補足的所以中正大學現在已經有高度的"},{"start":146.275,"end":167.142,"text":"努力中正在籌劃說他們也希望可以把這個矽光子未來從微學程到到這個畢業學位學程甚至未來朝向整個學院的一個推展那我想這部分經濟部未來可不可以在關鍵的一些專案中然後來支持中正大學往這樣來努力"},{"start":167.782,"end":195.209,"text":"可以啦好那所以這部分來拜託部長我想未來我可能會跟中分大學我們會找教育部找國科會那經濟部這邊也可以來技術師這邊適度的給我們這個大力的幫忙這樣好嗎是的好那第二個我想要跟部長聊一下這個當然跟台電是不是台電今天這個總經理有到啦那我想要請教一下就是說因為這一次丹納斯風災請總經理"},{"start":197.305,"end":223.665,"text":"好這次丹納斯風災那大概我們嘉義這裡大概是電線感這個導的是非常的多所以大概這一次可以看出了所謂這個電纜的韌性中這個電線感的地下化是一個很關鍵的一個要推動的那我想要請教我們王總這邊那我們這個電感的地下化目前台電怎麼規劃呢"},{"start":225.522,"end":253.497,"text":"台电在嘉义这个地方已经有做初步的规划了第一个这个规划已经报到经济部这边了那经济部正在核准当中那至于说整个的细部规划我们还是同步在进行就是针对变电所出口那个比较重要的那些溃线那我们现在先进行那个做下地的设计的这个阶段那正在进行当中"},{"start":255.328,"end":275.419,"text":"有正在推動像一些主要幹線像台17線台19線這些主要的一個幹線以及一些關鍵的基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施比方我們事實上我在地方也有跟我們這個南區處的處長討論比方說像公所地方公所的周邊"},{"start":276.42,"end":303.164,"text":"我們知道說每一個鄉鎮公所就是它的一個行政的中心啊它遇到災難的時候它也是一個防災的一個指揮中心所以如果公所周邊可以讓它電纜地下的話可以確保說技術在公所周邊這些單位它可能會有護證可能會有一些清潔隊技術在周邊這邊可以讓它的電纜的韌性相對的比較強韌這件事情應該也是都"},{"start":304.321,"end":327.773,"text":"是 没有错 跟委员报告就是说以嘉义地区来讲设计的理念 如您提到的把一些比较重要的单位 机关机关的周边 周边这边可以优先来推动让它地下化所以这个我认为是很重要那因为这一次是特别预算所以特别预算基本上我觉得"},{"start":328.72,"end":350.594,"text":"原本啦原本我感覺應該要再多一點如果你說嘉義這邊要推動因為丹納斯我們跟台南是最大的受災戶可是後來看起來是這個周少增多了啦大家比較多人要進來分配這個預算所以事實上可以做的相對少很多所以我會覺得說"},{"start":352.075,"end":368.665,"text":"這部分可能重點 求重點行走然後這個讓人民才會馬上有感這樣好不好是 因為台電真正做地下化的經費才80億啦那80億分配到各個當然相對大家是少很多啦這個是嘉義跟台南"},{"start":369.105,"end":386.208,"text":"是因為重災區是重點地區所以是相對比較多一點只是因為經費確實有限這我可以理解還是沒有辦法滿足各縣市的需求比方說我們身在台61線在布袋新聞那裡正在做這個閘道"},{"start":387.709,"end":406.714,"text":"台61線的閘道事實上它就會涉及到它地面下的道路也會更新那我認為說在地面道路更新的時候就要搭配電纜地下化這樣的話你們可以省下很多路修費所以這個閘道的一個更新大概在這兩三個禮拜它就會發報啊"},{"start":409.275,"end":417.144,"text":"所以我覺得這個你們可以去對接一下跟高工局對接一下說他什麼時候他們的路開始要修理才對你們這個大廈對在地下化去你們的基金很多錢啦"},{"start":420.458,"end":425.041,"text":"我相信他也會接受啦我還是要提醒因為有一些重大的陸修工程事實上台電大隊內這樣你們可以省錢這樣好不好好那謝謝台電那也謝謝我們經濟部好感謝好謝謝蔡議員委員的詢問"}]}},{"id":"165090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2e2987f242056d576367e5b5a2f2752d0ac005464e7b8fa9777988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:56:12 - 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我請文化部李遠部長請李遠部長"},{"start":15.311,"end":44.127,"text":"部長好 你好 部部都是文化部 人人都是體育人10月16號文化部也發布了一個新聞稿說文化部與新成立的運動部李洋部長雙部會首長首次合作會面啟動遠洋合作計畫乍看以為是海委會 不是海委會來 部長怎麼樣的一個想法你們會去啟動遠洋合作文化部跟運動部可以有哪些方面的合作呢"},{"start":44.747,"end":73.604,"text":"好 謝謝你給我這個機會因為李洋部長上任之後我們有很多機位剛好坐在隔壁他就問我問到文化幣他說文化幣蠻成功的可不可以了解一下因為他們的動資券他們有在發行動資券而且年齡很接近那我就跟他講說其實很多國家是把運動文化跟觀光綁在一起我們台灣是把它拆開所以如果我們彼此可以合作的話有非常多東西是"},{"start":74.344,"end":93.727,"text":"可以互相加成效果後來就約好兩邊碰面各自提自己的想像文化部就提了很多包括動資券跟文化幣怎麼樣一起來宣傳包括我們可以有運動漫畫因為這個部分是文化部比較熟練的我們本來就有固定在徵求漫畫"},{"start":94.668,"end":110.086,"text":"就跟他建議說我們要不要一起來徵求運動漫畫他也覺得這個滿好的運動類型多少錢其實我們在聊的時候大概都聊到這個計畫再來就是包括運動電影事實上大家都知道我們台灣現在正在拍過去也拍過很多運動電影運動電影展然後"},{"start":114.351,"end":131.287,"text":"体育部提到的是一个他们过去就提过的一个博物馆运动博物馆这样的概念所以我们算是初步的聊过一轮但是没有非常具体可是半个月后我们就先推出第一次合作看看双方顺不顺利因为毕竟"},{"start":132.188,"end":158.393,"text":"畢竟要目瞭互相要熟悉對方的方法所以我們就很快的推一個就是各位看到的就是在11月以前同時用掉動資券跟文化幣我們各自再加碼加起來300元類似這樣子其實我覺得它除了達成到雙方用掉這個文化幣跟動資券之外我個人一直覺得我的文化部"},{"start":159.173,"end":185.734,"text":"可以幫很多部門都增加文化性比如說剛剛提到外交部我們就幫外交部去做文化外交比如說我剛剛講的百大文化基地我們就可以幫交通部觀光署去建立一個文化的景點我認為只有在這種合作中才有一種團隊的感覺就是我們是一個行政團隊大家團結合作的感覺"},{"start":186.741,"end":203.391,"text":"我們非常的贊同也支持事實上剛剛部長就提到像韓國他就是以文化體育觀光部的方式綜合的一起來規劃跟推動所以剛剛提到幾個具體的合作專第一個這個你的文化幣跟動資券你們已經發布了嗎就是"},{"start":204.031,"end":215.247,"text":"用加碼的方式送點數來推廣那麼因為現在已經11月了到年底之前剩下兩個月所以去年我們文化幣的領取率是86%其實有成長空間這一點是我要提醒你們可能兩個部會都要來加強宣傳"},{"start":220.575,"end":242.339,"text":"剩下兩個月要領而且要使用那第二個呢是剛剛提到運動部成立有一個使命就是要成立國家運動博物館所以這一個其實我們在修法要成立運動部的時候就已經也啟動在討論包括他場址應該要設在哪裡運動文化記憶這個史料過去沒有系統性的來盤整要趕快開始來做記錄"},{"start":245.22,"end":257.667,"text":"那麼我看我們文化部已經針對明年就是亞運了嘛文化部已經有媒合了我們台視播跟運動部有合作一個專案就是明年4月的時候我們是不是要來舉辦亞運特展這個目前應當是在規劃當中"},{"start":263.23,"end":276.368,"text":"是吗谢谢委员问到这个这就是我们等于第一次第一次用这种展览的方式来合作而且这个展览已经筹备很久我是不是请台时博的那个馆长来跟你介绍一下"},{"start":278.477,"end":299.37,"text":"委員早安 台思博從體育署時期就已經開始進行相關亞運展的合作運動部正式成立之後 我們已經在上個月開過一次工作會議確定了相關的一個期程預定在二月份完成相關的策展準備就在明年四月正式開展 轉期為半年"},{"start":299.875,"end":326.334,"text":"好這邊我也要謝謝台時博因為去年預算審查提案的時候我做一個提案希望我們可以跟城南區域周邊的學校社區來多還有周邊的場館來多解合作合作所以今年也舉辦了這個城南串串這個迴響非常好我們也提醒希望明年的亞運特展的時候跟我們周邊的學校因為運動是一個非常好的教育運營來多多的來交流跟推廣那第三點剛剛部長提到的運動漫畫跟運動電影"},{"start":329.376,"end":346.003,"text":"我也非常的支持那這部分文化部目前有沒有具體的計畫例如我們要透過補助嗎還是相關什麼樣的政策工具去協助引導因為運動博物館主責應當是運動部文化部協助角色但是漫畫電影恐怕就是你們文化部要主責囉"},{"start":347.668,"end":359.477,"text":"因為我剛剛提到說比如說漫畫的這個獎勵補助我們每年都在進行長篇補助跟短的補助所以這個部分我們運作非常熟練有沒有預計什麼時候會出來呢針對你們要推動運動漫畫跟運動電影"},{"start":366.361,"end":384.3,"text":"1月底开始增建因为这个部分是我们文化部本身就在做的业务现在是想把运动部拉进来我们已经写了一个计划那后续规划再提供给我们1月份就开始可以启动就是一个三百万的计划大概征求五个团队来发展五种运动"},{"start":384.941,"end":409.16,"text":"那李安部長聽完也覺得這個蠻有趣就是說哪五種運動我們對外徵求然後台灣的漫畫其實已經有非常多的漫畫家這點也是大家很難想像就是繪畫漫畫的這個好 已經有具體計畫那我們非常期待第二個件事情要跟部長來追蹤關切的就是在我們仲孝東路二段一號過去是省紀部所有現在由我們台博館來規劃的"},{"start":412.202,"end":436.741,"text":"就是昭和樓日本時代的文資那因為這是我在擔任市議員的期間我是這個文資的提報人所以當年是我去台北市的文資審查會我來提報新市政也感謝民間的老師林宗奎老師當時提供我很多的史料那麼目前我們的進度因為我們有舉辦考察那目前進度是在規劃那未來的修復再利用"},{"start":437.883,"end":446.541,"text":"進度如何 上次我聽到是說我們預計116年也就是兩年後要來竣工是不是可以如期的來完成呢"},{"start":447.335,"end":475.174,"text":"好 这点我是不是请馆长讲一下好 请馆长是 我们招了合的修复在116年是我们完工的目标目前没有变动116年完工的话是不是预计117年有没有办法营运也应该可以好 来 部长请问现在这一个位置我们未来会规划做什么样的博物馆有没有定位跟方向有 有这个委员问得很好原来我们当初升级的时候是作为台博馆的办公室"},{"start":476.004,"end":491.678,"text":"但是後來因為我們有建築中心設在也是台博館的鐵道園區後來發現那個館實在太小後來覺得這個昭和樓它比較有古蹟它跟整個博物館系統比較像今天我要提醒大家"},{"start":492.318,"end":514.574,"text":"有關於昭和樓未來它利用活化的定位跟方向上次考察的時候我們就提醒我們認為應該要去結合周邊的關聯性你周邊對面有文學糧倉旁邊是華山園區如果它是作為文化藝術相關主題的這個場館的話應當是可以發揮加成的效果"},{"start":516.078,"end":538.397,"text":"所以呢在這個時間點你們做定位非常重要因為還有時間所以我希望你們可以仔細的去衡量如何去讓它發揮形成一個文化的聚落那最後呢我占用一分鐘的時間想要來建議文化部因為APEC韓國剛落幕所以韓國的歌手GD是這個宣傳大使"},{"start":538.817,"end":551.28,"text":"他也是韓國大眾文化獎最年輕的得主BPS的主唱呢也在現場進行了演出所以呢我們看到像上個月BLACKPINK來高雄辦演唱會演唱會經濟音樂帶動產業音樂帶動台灣的國際知名度他是有成效的那我看到影視局明天有一個新增的計畫我覺得非常棒是要來推動我們本土的音樂節來帶動國際觀光計畫這一個計畫預算5000萬"},{"start":568.044,"end":583.584,"text":"部長支持但其實我覺得不夠5000萬應該還要再多但是你們有沒有開始跟觀光署來進行討論了文化部跟觀光署要來合作其實我們這個計畫就是要跟觀光署一起合作希望能夠一個是刺激內需一個是能夠"},{"start":585.2,"end":608.349,"text":"很多人因為這個活動來台灣觀光所以這個整個計畫是要跟觀光署一起來做跟我們其他的文化活動有點不一樣音樂帶動觀光音樂帶動產業音樂帶動全世界認識台灣台灣的文化創作絕對有這樣的條件跟實力那文化部責無旁貸我們期待明年開始這個計畫可以來一起帶動台灣讓世界更看見認識台灣好不好好謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2b0e97c04527c4e78367e5b5a2f2752d0372a46263f608504f91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:38:45 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你好部長好 很高興又看到你我想這個不清不楚是最可怕的剛剛我們有委員同事就在關心這個傘兵案件跟三金獎項的事有非常多人在討論不管是支持撤回或反對撤回當時部長的回應是文化部要進一步討論"},{"start":41.88,"end":63.319,"text":"那我覺得現在的狀況有點不清不楚我想還是再給您一個機會現在十多天過去了請問文化部對於這件事有沒有什麼具體的進展好 謝謝委員在問這個同一個問題三金要不要撤掉的問題隨著事情的發展各位一定知道到了昨天為止就有人去自首薛士林"},{"start":63.988,"end":82.568,"text":"那我們的判斷就是隨著這個事情的發展撤回不撤回撤回不撤回他沒有辦法yes no所以現在還沒辦法yes no這樣我們知道了那我請教一下部長三金獎過去辦理這麼多年剛剛委員同事也在講其實裡面的規範"},{"start":83.969,"end":97.17,"text":"也許跟社會大眾的理解有點不一樣我想請教一下部長三星獎過去辦理這麼多年除了違反著作權法的案件以外有沒有因為得獎者違反其他法律而撤銷獎項的案例你們查過了嗎"},{"start":98.318,"end":122.572,"text":"目前為止我們查過只有一次是金鐘獎第57屆因為他得獎的那個人不符合全新創作獎對嘛 就著作權對不起 這個部長你聽我講嘛我說除了違反著作權法以外都沒有嘛 對不對我們徹底的查了一遍對啦 就是沒有嘛我們也了解啦所以其實啦這個相關的規定啊"},{"start":122.972,"end":147.325,"text":"都是依據不同獎項的規範來做的這些榮譽其實都是根據作品的表現來進行專業的評斷相關的規範其實我們也都幫文化部整理好了這個金曲獎這個規範是只針對參賽節目的部分規定如果有違反的話才來做撤銷是以節目的部分"},{"start":148.979,"end":153.243,"text":"金曲獎是得獎者違法追繳獎金和獎座,但是過去以來並沒有執行。金鐘獎則是以節目為主,金馬獎的規範比較模糊,都是以相關的委員會來做決定。"},{"start":170.08,"end":192.75,"text":"那事實上我想我們也根據文化部的答覆知道說整體來講是以作品的創作精神為主軸但是本席還是希望能夠部長站在更高的高度以尊重作品為出發點希望能夠呼應我們剛剛有委員同事來說就是說三金獎要來訂出更符合社會期望的獎勵要點不要因人設世"},{"start":193.57,"end":211.658,"text":"不然變成會不會到最後閃冰的要追回獎項反而違反兒少性剝削防治條例的強制性交罪的甚至殺人未遂的反而不用追回有多重標準的話我想社會大眾可能會很失望希望文化部趕快收集專家學者的意見做出適當的調整"},{"start":213.021,"end":239.693,"text":"可以嗎可以的好我想這個大家一起來關注另外想請部長來看兩段影片部長不知道能不能看得出哪幾支影片是由AI生成的我們先看一下都很短十幾秒請問你喜歡賴清德嗎喜歡啊那請問你知道你是AI生成的嗎知道啊真人誰喜歡賴清德啊來來來怎麼樣怎麼樣來來來怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":241.798,"end":250.085,"text":"這不是很好笑喔但是我們再來看請問你喜歡賴清德嗎喜歡啊那請問你知道你是AI生成的嗎知道啊真人誰喜歡賴清德啊"},{"start":252.59,"end":279.031,"text":"來來來 怎麼樣怎麼樣也不是很好笑部長知道哪一支是AI哪一支是真拍嗎看起來好像右邊這個比較不像真的人很好事實上兩支上面都有打浮水印全部是AI生成的事實上這些影片看了都讓人細思極恐這個是OpenAI 10月30號正式在台灣推出Sora App生成的影片"},{"start":279.851,"end":301.789,"text":"事實上因為台灣很有創意我們的創作者非常有創意被OpenAI選為亞洲前幾個國家開放作為這個APP來上市您看到的這個影片右邊其實是我的臉大家會覺得寶博士的臉被偽造了沒有 這其實有一個非常嚴格的機制我只要透過一分鐘掃描我的臉"},{"start":302.389,"end":326.838,"text":"同意我的臉可以被其他創作者使用以後我就可以讓我的臉出現在其他的作品裡面但是我也可以不允許使用或只允許我的朋友使用它其實是一個相對比較完整的一個控制的機制但是上市以來還是引起了藝文界的關注美國電影協會啊日本集音社啊都發表聲明但是部長啊"},{"start":327.378,"end":355.447,"text":"我發現到目前為止文化部完全沒有針對這個系列以及新的風潮新的服務新的應用跟這個完全看不出真假的影片來做一些意見的一些發表到底文化部是肯定台灣的創意應該要更加積極的利用這樣的AI工具來發展還是文化部擔憂未來藝文產業的發展會受到AI的強力挑戰這個部分部長"},{"start":356.147,"end":378.808,"text":"目前沒有立場沒有觀點嗎有 我們會隨著那個每一個比賽的項目以前規定不能夠完全不能碰AI到開始有部分可以用AI我們在我們的所有的那個輔導的輔導金獎勵辦法裡已經陸續開始修了就表示我們開始重視AI到做到什麼程度我們可以承認它是創作"},{"start":379.148,"end":400.083,"text":"部長有空可以體驗一下這樣的服務感受一下未來的科技另外部長也要看一下這個照片因為剛剛那個是Sora是一個美國的應用我們來看一下部長這張照片最近這種雪景風格好像蠻紅的滑一滑都有點滑到這個是網路最紅的AI照片生成的軟體"},{"start":400.623,"end":411.062,"text":"不用出國就可以拍一個雪景沙龍照事實上我們辦公室也幫部長您生成了一張雪景下的沙龍照"},{"start":412.532,"end":433.473,"text":"我們也老實講 這個APP來自中國大陸現在網路上有非常多的網友用它來生成圖片我們用這個APP 辦公室的同仁用這個APP來生成部長的照片 僅供質詢使用目的是為了讓部長理解 事實上聲音跟肖像被侵權是有它的嚴重性的"},{"start":434.073,"end":445.764,"text":"如果您的這個肖像被匯入到這些服務裡面不只會生成美景美圖還有可能用您的臉跟您的口 您的聲音說出您不想講的話說我喜不喜歡賴清德總統這事實上"},{"start":450.928,"end":473.084,"text":"有可能会造成很多的伤害甚至有可能有一些人工作室他说这个演员这个演艺工作人员文艺工作者你让我少一分钟你就可以回家我付你一分钟的薪水但是你的脸已经被完整的建模可以出现在所有的影剧当中事实上我们认为"},{"start":473.985,"end":498.464,"text":"先前有演藝人員因為到對岸發展被陸委會關切甚至被文化部約談但是未來這個東西進化了人不用到大陸不用到其他地方他還是可以演錄劇他還是可以做表演這還是一個可以討論的狀態但是如果有演藝人員反而被剝奪了只付了一分鐘的薪水但是卻演了幾千幾萬個小時的影劇"},{"start":500.465,"end":517.783,"text":"這很可能會造成很多權益上的問題所以我們一直希望能夠呼籲部長是不是能夠更加關注這方面的議題為什麼呢因為根據文化部今年7月出版的文化藝術應用生成式AI指引您剛剛也都提到了"},{"start":518.363,"end":540.01,"text":"這是你們寫的喔目前聲音特色肖像並非著作權的保護範圍喔所以您剛剛這些動作您作為部長你是完全沒有辦法做自我保護的部長一直有聽聞經濟部要對著作權法啟動修法文化部有沒有受邀參與有沒有主動積極的追溯"},{"start":540.61,"end":567.762,"text":"進度如何什麼時候會有預告版本部長您可不可以關注一下您的臉跟您的聲音還有我們全體演藝文藝人員的這些權益可不可以稍微趕快說明一下我們參加過經濟部那個會議開過一次會什麼時候我要晚回查一下對不起好會後提供那然後呢現在進度怎麼樣就一次啊這麼重大的是就一次會議啊"},{"start":572.884,"end":601.406,"text":"因為他們是主動他們在辦邀請我們只邀請過一次但您剛才這樣講我覺得這個蠻嚴重的的確是聲音也好肖像也好他的著作權的確是我們在過去因為他過去的法律上好像沒辦法保護他因為我們在被拍攝發聲好像以前在過去的理解中他不能夠算是著作權可是有AI之後我想這點我們重新考慮好"},{"start":602.607,"end":612.694,"text":"謝謝部長這一點希望文化部更加積極主動這個事件會越演越烈現在已經出現所謂的AI女演員我們現在看到我們的這個業務報告裡面50頁六次談AI只談研討會對於發展對於保護其實隻字未提我們希望這個部長"},{"start":625.062,"end":641.247,"text":"不要讓人有一種說您的喜怒這個勝於演藝工作者的權益對於政治性的議題好像比較關注我想這個是錯誤的認知但希望您用行動來彰顯好不好那接下來不好意思這時間雖然有限但有幾個非常重要"},{"start":642.008,"end":653.963,"text":"勞動者的權益的議題我還是想要提出我們一直在關心藝文工作者的勞動權益我們屢次向文化部提起要重視藝文工作者低薪高工時的問題同時我們也說"},{"start":656.946,"end":673.567,"text":"希望勞動部跟衛福部共同研議藝文工作者安全衛生防護的健康檢查協助方案結果呢根據本席提供的資料文化部在去年12月召集了勞動部衛福部開了一次會議又是一次會議了"},{"start":674.528,"end":693.308,"text":"然後沒有下文結果沒有下文的原因竟然不是其他人不配合竟然是文化部表示文化產業各種藝文形式差異甚大不同勞動型態工作場域廣泛多元要先了解藝文職業領域的勞動樣態才能跟勞動部討論"},{"start":697.114,"end":715.672,"text":"報告部長啊文化部成立到現在13年卻現在才發現不了解藝文領域的勞動樣態會不會太誇張啊這個聲音您能不能關心一下能不能進行更主動積極的防護我們知道現在有委託台經院做問卷調查"},{"start":716.753,"end":727.462,"text":"理論上九月底已經結束了能不能請部長確認什麼時候會再邀集會議不要又只開一次會部長能不能承諾六個月內有具體的進展"},{"start":728.897,"end":754.116,"text":"因為今年九月我們就完成一個調查因為的確剛才雖然您說這個文化藝文工作者這麼常來我們怎麼還沒有搞清楚事實上他一直在變化中就是所謂界定他是文化工作他的那個方式一直在界定中但是我們的確是問卷調查完之後我們會立刻進行到屬於跟其他國家來比較之後屬於健康檢查"},{"start":755.517,"end":778.51,"text":"4月我想我們儘快 部長現在11月了 9月應該已經做完了6個月內能不能有具體進展啊很長勒 好不好 最後再爭取幾十秒的時間部長有一個神秘的1億元 我一定要搞清楚這是你們新年度的預算We Taiwan有一個移回台灣展出的費用列了1億元台幣 而且業務宣導費都分開喔這個活動我們還是"},{"start":781.632,"end":800.871,"text":"因為19天內吸引20萬人次但是我們多次詢問你們到底一億元要怎麼花到底是運費還是勞務費用還是硬體還是軟體授權你們回覆我們這樣一張紙只有下部分這幾個字完全也一點"},{"start":801.932,"end":825.725,"text":"一點也不清楚啊然後就說要花掉一億元啊這個部長我現在想要給您一個機會啊可不可以向全民說清楚這一億元移展到底運什麼東西回來 細項是什麼展演軟體硬體服務為什麼運回台灣要一億元呢委員謝謝你問這個問題其實他不是 他不是把東西運回來他是要"},{"start":826.877,"end":848.155,"text":"模仿那边做的东西再重新开始全部都重新来过然后再增加一点展览我们分三块来讲第一块就是我们原来的那个静态的那个色彩光谱这一项比较受欢迎的增加一些项目这是一个一个是RV这个在那边很受欢迎之后把RV这个"},{"start":849.436,"end":858.668,"text":"這個造型重新再擴大對不起部長因為主席已經站起來了我打斷您喔原因是預算沒有辦法這樣編啊什麼樣的業務費用什麼樣的勞務費用什麼樣的設備費用什麼樣的授權費用這應該要列出來啊"},{"start":865.177,"end":883.762,"text":"您如果清楚就請同仁回應我們清清楚楚的預估我們現在從您剛剛這樣的口條裡面說起來我們還是不清楚啊我們知道可能會看到什麼但是遺言如何花我們還是沒有聽到您剛剛自己仔細回想一下您剛剛在講的"},{"start":884.562,"end":896.948,"text":"哪一部分是多少錢還有一塊我剛才沒講完前兩塊是確定第三塊是配合經濟部他也有一個展覽對不起不好意思主席你先講完經濟部的展覽裡面文化部的協助這個部分還在談所以我沒有辦法給你一項一項的"},{"start":902.051,"end":915.737,"text":"不好意思喔 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你當過國話會主委行政院秘書長 現在又經濟部長那我再問你一個問題 請教你一個問題川普當總統還能當習人我現在問的 你不要笑 這個問題很簡單 大家都曉得他們規定大概就是總共八年 這個他們憲法上的規定你覺得他還有下一任嗎"},{"start":260.697,"end":276.021,"text":"因為他們規定就是八年不是八年 他已經做過一次美國的憲法做連續加起來八年你要改變美國的憲法所以他只能當一日除了修改美國的憲法對不對你真是八極講的這麼八年 大家三天你沒聽說過可以連續做八年"},{"start":280.777,"end":308.872,"text":"那我為什麼今天問你這個問題他總共一生當中他總共一生當中你八卦也很厲害諾貝爾獎你看總統都講說很多總統都說要他拿諾貝爾獎你說他可以當八年另外一種拍馬屁的方式一流的沒有啦他已經做過四年多現在五年他已經做過了所以他最多還只能再做三年而已"},{"start":310.236,"end":338.619,"text":"這次APEC在釜山中美的貿易戰你覺得如何 誰贏誰輸中美貿易戰 現在有短暫時間的和解但是它的根源還是存在它的根源存在 現在需不在歷年那我比較 因為你是台灣很重要的人士你覺得第三次世界大戰會不會爆發"},{"start":341.839,"end":370.22,"text":"不會啦我認為很有可能不會啦所以這次EPICA的會議是大豆跟稀土對著關稅跟晶片的大戰那這次的戰爭是非常慘烈只是短暫的休息那稀土的話對台灣的電子業影響有多大"},{"start":372.199,"end":386.054,"text":"要跟我說實話喔我為了不問你這個問題我特別打過喔最主要就是磁鐵馬達那個部分比較大對台灣來講台灣用量很小都是買國外的對對對"},{"start":389.196,"end":402.711,"text":"這也不一定你經營製造也要他的製造端的部分他現在沒有在他這幾項的管制範圍裡面沒有製造端但是我跟你說我看到這樣中美貿易戰從貿易科技"},{"start":408.498,"end":428.251,"text":"那個軍事一直這樣延伸下來那台灣把中國大陸認為是一個境外敵對勢力萬一他不賣給稀土給台灣你覺得會怎麼樣報告委員就像我們是間接這個我是判斷啦"},{"start":429.881,"end":457.863,"text":"真的對視的很厲害的話這種情形會產生啊你不要以為不可能啊所以目前為止我們是間接進口嘛大部分從日本跟歐洲還有這個美國來嘛那我們現在開始要自建我們的這個厲害喔如果依照資料你自建產業包括你要經程度最起碼要五年以上所以這一年休戰是大家都在準備啊"},{"start":458.365,"end":483.866,"text":"是 我們也盡快在準備所以明年也開始啟動了我們自己準備的存量情況是非常不好台灣的電子業這邊整個要是封鎖起來我們真的要啟動我們自己應該準備的一個方案在不過目前來講半導體受的影響是還好是比較沒有受到影響我覺得不怎麼好我看了一個資料它還有一個工業戰史"},{"start":486.433,"end":507.993,"text":"這個是台灣一定要用晶片的開始製造跟切割少了它就沒有辦法咱們不要自得其樂以為自己很強我告訴你還有現在那個APP已經結束了那台灣的對等關稅談了怎麼樣我還沒有新的訊息"},{"start":511.384,"end":534.615,"text":"因為這個訊的訊的訊息還是在副院長跟談判辦公室那邊好你當經濟部長都沒有訊息我有參與討論啦 我覺得很緊張這是你經濟部最主要要去關心的問題你都沒有訊息不是那個談判的時間還是談判辦公室要跟對方訊息你大概預計什麼時候談判能完成"},{"start":535.407,"end":554.629,"text":"大家都在等不然剛剛我們楊強威召委說傳統產業已經現在被折磨了實在沒有什麼訂單開始放無薪假你說AI伺服器這邊比較好這個未來的變化還不曉得最近的無薪假稍微下降了"},{"start":555.249,"end":567.895,"text":"我告訴你 我們都要注意一點其實啊 台灣我是覺得搖來搖去比較有前途不要靠哪一邊隨時發生的狀況我們都不曉得我們也沒有辦法左右"},{"start":568.809,"end":584.536,"text":"我會說我們現在好像任人宰割的狀況你自己要了解這樣的狀況如果你讀過整篇看過的時候因為你現在都說得很清楚台灣很強建立台灣人信心其實在幾個產業裡面已經發生了"},{"start":587.777,"end":612.922,"text":"会有很大的变化台湾过去70年来都是一直在挑战的过程当中那我们中小企业跟传统产业大家的协助之下也一步一步都渡过这个难关所以我们还是我们希望能渡过难关但是这次真的会不一样一定要注意整个产业发展传统产业里面的精密产业一定不能放"},{"start":613.502,"end":613.822,"text":"非常"}]}},{"id":"165069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d23304ef5992092dd6575289a78f60fae5372a46263f608504b22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:17:45 - 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對不對確實都是那為什麼那為什麼會這樣咧為什麼會這樣你沒有去了解一下哇 那個都講到講成這樣了我們堂堂中華民國外交部長到美國去設宴美國人都不理大家都用行程很忙碌又不來他還模擬我的心情說我很挫折啊真的是編故事也太離譜了不是啦 如果是這樣當然挫折但是 不然不要再歪樓了第一個 你要去了解為什麼CNN會有這樣的報導啊"},{"start":117.811,"end":141.346,"text":"你用管道嘛就是認知作戰的一部分啊所以CNN被誰認知作戰他們不管是故意或是不小心他就成為認知作戰的一部分被誰嘛 被誰認知作戰被誰認知作戰啊他的報導者啊不是啦部長 我跟你講我們我們的外交常常面臨到這樣的狀況就是當我們外交受挫我認為啦CNN報導這個事情"},{"start":142.947,"end":156.76,"text":"是外交上一個小作者他連查證都沒有也沒來問我你可以罵他我都沒有意見他就亂報你可以抱怨這個google就有了你可以抱怨我去紐約這個事情連主辦單位還有一些像會書人總統都已經在媒體上報過了如果你很委屈你開直播啦好不好你開直播去講講兩個小時沒有差啦"},{"start":163.627,"end":192.514,"text":"但是你要了解的是不是說現在很爛被任職作戰就沒事了因為你是外交部長你要去了解為什麼這個狀況人家現在為什麼這個報導這第一件事情第二件事情是你現在不要再抱怨了第二個部長自從您上任之後外媒批評台灣特別多以前蔡英文總統的時候沒有這麼多而且不是美國媒體日本媒體也是"},{"start":193.614,"end":213.181,"text":"從朝日新聞 獨賣新聞產經新聞國傳師你的認識你如果自我感覺良好當然認識跟我不同但是朝日獨賣產經從自由派到保守派 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部長好喔那我今天要針對的是10月底它中央攝影術外交部回應的新聞稿它物質的美國重量級的智庫這個亞洲新亞洲部門的主任Golstein在時代雜誌他所投書為報導然後對要跟記者跟相關人員進行懲處可是這個事實上我查證的結果"},{"start":47.163,"end":66.213,"text":"是這個Golstadt他所呈現的是在線上專欄那你知道Times的這個雜誌呢他本身就是一個重要的一個國際期刊他有的影響力他就針對像亞洲事務的部分的就會有他的一個重要的專欄的作家來去來撰寫這是本身就有的那特別是這一個"},{"start":66.933,"end":93.43,"text":"这个国际重量线智库呢Difference Priorities呢他这个Golstein呢他本身就是亚洲部这个主任所以一个专栏是个长期的这样的一个结果出现的那现在呢出现了这样一个惩处结果我们现在我刚才我也听到的胡社长你有提到说说目前昨天就开了这个新闻自立委员会嘛对不对那目前惩处结果没有出来但是我今天要讨论的一个重点在于说惩处的标准是什么"},{"start":95.071,"end":110.504,"text":"我們看看中央社的這個採訪通訊講審辦法當中他對於新聞的採訪的遺漏或發生錯誤或是缺乏實效性而影響本社社域的時候有規定有三種的方式就是"},{"start":111.364,"end":115.047,"text":"輕重就是深屆 季過跟季大過這樣的狀況那我們現在不只是根據這樣子剛才因為這個新聞 高雅蘭這樣的新聞說戴興德總統他本身是一個美國要注意到戴興德總統是一個魯莽的一個領導人"},{"start":127.116,"end":151.736,"text":"那我們現在看看其他的 中央社其他的這個報導當中呢我們看到的是在陳培哲中央研究院院士跟75位學者他大概在今年的3月份就是你們引述了他的一個聲明稿裡面提到了台灣言論自由被壓縮戒嚴時代思想審查又再度降臨了你們把戒嚴兩個字把它拿掉然後又改了回來"},{"start":152.897,"end":164.505,"text":"這是不是就是遺漏呢 甚至發生錯誤而且根本就是篡改人家的聲明那結果你們有懲處相關人士嗎那你們有發生更正聲明嗎請胡社長回覆今年3月發生的事情答案是沒有齁 我看到的資料是沒有齁好 胡社長你的時間要不要暫停一下你的答覆呢好 我回答"},{"start":182.52,"end":211.388,"text":"更正 對 你是更正 但是沒有成準這事實上你們是篡改人家的聲明 這是非常重要的事情第二件事情 五月的時候呢 你們在YouTube直播封面放錯照片那把去年的照片呢 用到今年來這是就職一週年的情況那底下的網友 大家看到我們這個PPT裡面的右邊呢底下網友的留言是一片罵聲 說你們的報導素質很差裡面連這個相片都會放錯 有沒有嚴重的影響社育"},{"start":212.128,"end":237.771,"text":"那你們怎麼處理的有發道線其實我知道但是有說檢討作業那有懲處相關人員嗎請說委員我覺得您可能有點會說意了那個我們的懲處啊其實大部分這些都有懲處它的懲處我們懲處層次分很多如果呢是初犯或者不是明顯的是由各單位各中心的主管用祭典的方式那祭典的方式將來會留作年底的考期做個參考"},{"start":238.752,"end":261.964,"text":"第二個 如果說也不是太嚴重 它進行受害可能是口頭深解這個也是不會公告的 所以您剛剛所說的沒有懲處是指其實我們這個內部的中心 他們一定都會進行出錯的時候會做檢討所以這個也在我們的範疇 所以我在想這個社會當中現在引起了一些confuse或者誤會是來自於這裡 我們的懲處有些懲處是沒有明文公告的"},{"start":262.324,"end":285.511,"text":"好那沒問題這部分因為我等一下本席到最後的時候會要求你就是這部分的相關懲處尤其是在您一年上任以來所發生的這些情形因為在一年來就已經發生現在為止就已經有三件的事情了我們繼續也再看到這個事情呢就在於說是懲處標準在哪裡我們這邊今天我只是選的重點在懲處標準在哪裡因為這件事情涉及到的是賴清德總統我們從"},{"start":287.452,"end":311.315,"text":"我們從FTNN就是通燦傳媒的這個新聞當中他提到的是說是因為有人在關注特別是在跟應該是在跟高層裡面那高層裡面最重要的可能就是您在這邊我就想著說這部分請你們一定要做因為這邊已經很清楚了這樣的情況下請問是你們在這過程當中你們25號或是24號當天的部分你們怎麼樣的處理還原一下"},{"start":313.39,"end":335.493,"text":"您是說這邊報導嗎我想委員這個所謂的不論是他是投書或者是專欄事實上都是一種opinion就是不等於報導他就是不一樣我們當然是前面外交部有一些問題但我們確實在技術上是查證"},{"start":336.654,"end":355.262,"text":"不利 那麼把關的也不利好 我覺得你這樣子講得非常專業所以我就真講我希望你們要繼續避免這樣子的一個有避免任何人因為媒體有報導出來是因為有關人士 重要人士去反映出來的所以你們要避免這種政治干預的問題出現我希望你中央社作為國家通訊社絕對是要有一個國家通訊社裡面的獨立專業的情況所以這部分"},{"start":360.444,"end":382.632,"text":"因為剛才有涉及到好幾件事情的這個有出現錯失的部分需要做一個因為沒有報告出來所以這部分是不是可以請中央社這邊到時候等一下大概在兩個禮拜之內做這個部分做一個報告出來給我們的教文委員會可以不過我們要解釋這個其實各政黨對國家"},{"start":384.193,"end":399.709,"text":"各政黨之間的批評或國家元首或各部會的批評我們中央社您可以看到出來我們都有登的但是我們中央社作為國家通訊社任何涉及台灣的國格尊嚴以及我們的國家元首重要的元首領袖我們的盡量保護"},{"start":401.451,"end":430.951,"text":"無論這位元首是任何的政黨我覺得這個中央社應該在這一方面更比其他媒體更加謹言慎說所以這部分但是你們要避免所謂的政治干預因為媒體已經有報導是這樣的情況就請你把你們專業呈現出來所以你剛才說了兩個禮拜可以嘛把這個報告給交給委員會好 謝謝您謝謝我們繼續往下看邦瓜董監事的提名上面想要問一下這個部長因為我剛才也聽到幾位委員有提到是這部分是目前好像只差一位對不對"},{"start":431.991,"end":449.936,"text":"目前差一位那你們事實上有沒有考慮過這一位讓你們考慮多久了應該有蠻多時間因為已經到將近延宕了11個月嘛對不對我在想說是不是你也卡取到當初小英總統的部分在考試委員的一個提名方式向各政黨徵選民選各政黨的"},{"start":451.816,"end":468.315,"text":"就是立法院的政黨提人選然後包括或是像這次的在中選會上面的像各政黨即使是一位就是至少多人才的部分提出來這樣的方式來去提名公共電視的人選這樣送給行政院有沒有這種可能性"},{"start":471.055,"end":490.683,"text":"公共電視的董監事的審查委員按照那個立法院的政黨比例選出所以他本身這個就已經有立法院的政黨比例那可是公共電視的董監事按照法令是由行政院提出對的對但是現在如果要用各政黨來提名"},{"start":491.223,"end":517.726,"text":"喔 沒有 我是說公開徵求人才 因為你剛才說的是這邊徵選人很不願意嘛 甚至因為這個過去有被延宕了三百多天對不對 這個我都聽到了 是不是這一部分採取我剛才所說的考試委員的總統提名的模式包括現在的行政院長在徵求中選會的這個模式昨天的新聞都已經出來了 是不是可以考慮這個模式來去進行這樣各政黨來提名 就是建議推薦人選那你們再去再做提名 一會上去"},{"start":519.165,"end":525.274,"text":"這個在過去好像沒有這樣做過 因為過去都沒有 但是問題是事實上就解決問題這是一個方法 要考慮嗎"},{"start":527.042,"end":552.194,"text":"我回去想一想好 你繼續想一想好 這部分請昭緯再給我一分鐘時間這部分我們繼續往下看的是一個文化幣的問題在文化幣的問題上面它涉及到的是青年的文化參與這部分我們看到文化幣的發展的一個發放的初衷應該就是一個看到的是有個因為看到是叫領取率 領取使用率一個短期的消費數據可是我們比較因為文化幣發放的話應該是一個長期叫養成"},{"start":557.177,"end":566.668,"text":"尤其是青年人喔因為這個發大到22歲嘛但是期待的是說對青年人他們到22歲的時候也是有後面的這樣子繼續對文化活動的支持嘛對不對"},{"start":567.97,"end":590.675,"text":"對吧那現在重點是有沒有個長期追蹤機制跟長期觀察機制因為看到的情況是呢現在的文化幣的使用上面都是在書店跟出版的這個業界這部分而且被立法院的預算中心被已經連續兩年在這部分的做一個說要做修正因為太過於集中那有沒有什麼改善措施跟成效呢"},{"start":593.151,"end":613.254,"text":"太過於集中這件事情我們好像沒辦法去規定他要去做什麼比如說他會隨著比如說大家看電影隨著電影比較景氣的時候他曾經排到第二名第三名隨著電影不景氣他又跌到第六七名那我們如果限制別人說出版太多書店太多這個"},{"start":614.615,"end":623.26,"text":"這個對出版界來講他絕對是會抗議的因為他在使用文化幣的時候但是部長我知道可是這個比例差距太多了最高的也沒超過20%這電影的部分是跟這個差距而且最後看到是他變成在教科書的補助款所以本席建議"},{"start":631.605,"end":648.518,"text":"這部份一定是要把這個文化的參與跟教育系的參與絕對是要做一個比較那這部份我是不是可以請教甚至在We 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我們大家一起努力我跟你講"},{"start":433.49,"end":449.901,"text":"不是每一個Supply Chain都像台積電現金滿滿的 不是他裡面來講很清楚他的資金有限他在台灣立個場你要帶到美國去對他來講是很辛苦的所以要打金價一起齁如果要出去他就沒錢啊"},{"start":452.743,"end":462.669,"text":"這個經貿辦可以回答一下這裡面我算一算就差不多原來講的要投資4千億美金換取關稅降低以及不要點家這樣講話對不對"},{"start":468.525,"end":484.14,"text":"剛剛委員的問題是說是不是用4千億對就是這個supply chain整個生態系過去了嘛對不對那這個就是外界一直講我們要投資4千億美金就從這裡來的不是嗎"},{"start":486.535,"end":509.623,"text":"跟委員報告我們剛剛林部長也有提到我們台灣的模式投資美國不是要產業外移是要產業的外擴跟延伸金額多少金額多少金額多少錢是產業的力量的外擴跟延伸台灣模式他強調的是主席站起來我要下去了你告訴我金額多少"},{"start":510.703,"end":523.337,"text":"金額多少?要投資金額?你都沒有算過這個是有企業自主規劃然後政府會去整合然後增加對業者支持你等於沒有答案耶這個我們不到答案了你要準備好這個答案啦外界一直想知道這樣子要投資多少啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165063","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165063","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d225b66860061b96fb367e5b5a2f2752d0372a46263f60850443b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:00:51 - 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實驗電影影展辦得非常的火熱把每一位二十幾歲的青年其實都捧成像是明日之星一樣"},{"start":66.48,"end":91.135,"text":"但是他這篇文章我必須先說並不討喜但是他點出了許多我們擔憂將來在業界的一些問題他下半段寫說很好看這些電影但資金市場產業其實都不是這樣子的一個風格接著下來他說他們找得到工作嗎能堅持幾年人才又要流失了嗎"},{"start":92.336,"end":119.856,"text":"能不能夠去滿足根本撐不起的市場沒有辦法讓資金回本的極少數的群眾那每年一開始都有新聞在講說我們的電影可能要告急啦我們的票房要告急啦產業要崩潰啦但是每年的年底的時候其實又有很多我們台灣自己辦的一些影展要發給自己台灣電影好像感覺這個榮景無限啊"},{"start":120.416,"end":148.298,"text":"所以呢他感覺是在生死之間感覺他的形容喔那我想呢另外一位資深的製片王漢生也針對他的這篇PO文他自己臉書也分享了他說其實我們最核心的一個產業的問題其實就是評審跟觀眾的口味已經有很大的一個距離是沒有辦法交集的那這些獎項最後呢會不會成為同溫層當中的一些小小的狂喜"},{"start":148.778,"end":166.208,"text":"而沒有辦法讓一般的民眾能夠有共鳴我想他也點出我們的產業的一個困境也值得我們深思了那我想針對這個文化政策的一個制定者您從這樣子的一篇文章我想請教一下部長您看到了什麼樣的核心問題嗎"},{"start":168.209,"end":195.902,"text":"謝謝委員這篇文章我現在想起來我看過然後其實我作為一個我曾經是電影工作者其實我曾經一開始就覺得電影藝術跟商業都是非常困難的就是你要非常藝術到大家都覺得你拍得非常好跟你要大賣錢這兩件事情都是非常困難的然後電影是成為產業之後他一定要考慮市場考慮因為他在戲院放嘛可是他裡面講的大概是短片"},{"start":196.562,"end":219.269,"text":"那通常我們拍短片本身因為它短片本身比較沒有商業壓力所以很多年輕人他都拍得比較實驗性 藝術電影 實驗電影但是不意味著這些年輕人走到產業之後他就會還是拍一些實驗性比較高的電影那我覺得台灣電影其實到底要哪一種類型最適合台灣"},{"start":220.109,"end":247.286,"text":"可以走出去的类型我想这篇文章提供给我们一些省思我们当然会希望优质的我们台湾的一些电影或者是短片等等都能够进入到真正的所谓的核心的市场那两方取得平衡之后这些人才才能够真正留在我们的影视工作的环境当中我们希望这个环境能够越来越健康那这个也是我们文化部必须要"},{"start":247.706,"end":273.752,"text":"跟我們一起大家努力的一個方向好那接下來呢其實又要提到了就是跟三清相關了我想前一陣子大家其實都在議論紛紛的就是涉及逃兵的一些爭議許多的藝人涉及逃兵的爭議那麼部分呢他們仍然入圍或者是已經拿得了這個所謂的三清的一些榮譽但是在榮譽跟責任上的一個落差我們文化部有沒有"},{"start":274.372,"end":293.268,"text":"能夠做些什麼我舉個例子來講其實在國際上有一些制度是可以參考的像是南韓如果他們的藝人逃兵吸毒暴力等等行為他是可以暫停他的所有的作品的一個播出甚至要禁止他的參與還有追回公民的一些獎項"},{"start":294.229,"end":313.66,"text":"那在美國的這個影藝學院當中他們也講了如果有道德行為上的準則是違反的他是可以撤銷他的會員跟取消他的這個得獎的資格那在英國的電影學院呢他也說了如果得獎者他涉及刑事調查或不當的行為可以暫停"},{"start":315.1,"end":340.985,"text":"暫緩他的這個公佈的提名撤銷他的獎項跟停止他的會員的資格那我想當然以前一陣子這麼多接二連三的逃兵的這些事件出爐之後也發現他們也許在影藝文化工作的這樣子的一個範圍他們拿到了所謂的三星的獎項的肯定但是在面對司法的問題跟道德上的問題這個其實是兩相"},{"start":344.626,"end":361.684,"text":"兩回事啦那只是我在想說在藝人榮譽跟公民義務之間的連結產生了社會公信的一個危機那我想請教一下部長你認為我們是不是也應該要建立一套就是文化榮譽倫理的一個準則來提供給"},{"start":362.685,"end":376.984,"text":"其他真的要進入這一行或者是已經在這一行工作的人他們在面對所謂的國民的義務在兵役的部分能夠碰到所謂涉及重大違法或道德爭議的時候有一個處理的準則您認為呢"},{"start":379.045,"end":405.018,"text":"因为这件事情涉及到一个是道德一个是奖项所以我们在事情发生后有征询到有三组人就是过去都当不同的电影电视听取奖他们的意见大部分的回答都是参考国际上的奖项有被撤掉资格的都是因为是他刚好资格不符或者抄袭或者等等他都是在技术上的"},{"start":405.578,"end":430.869,"text":"只有一個特例是國際安美獎涉及到性騷擾但是它本身是特別獎所以在所有獎項裡面可能只有一個獎比較要多考慮就是特別貢獻獎之類的或者我們在輔導金裡面可以訂這個那大部分的評審委員都覺得這是給他技術獎是特別獎那一年普通的評審所審出來的所以作為政府來講"},{"start":432.714,"end":448.571,"text":"我們好像沒有辦法去把某一屆某一屆某一個人的獎項把它撤掉這還是回到當初的辦法上但是剛剛委員講的的確是我們如何轉換一個方式因為當兵兵役是"},{"start":449.031,"end":475.584,"text":"每一個國民的一個義務所以當然他們以他們這個所謂的倫理的一個要求來講這個部分其實是有嚴重瑕疵當然社會的觀感也不好他們要怎麼樣自己去彌補這個社會觀感對他們的一個回復這個其實也要他們自己誠實面對但是我們文化部這邊我建議的方向是不是我們在這個文化獎項的一個倫理的準則其實也把這一次的這大規模"},{"start":476.024,"end":490.601,"text":"必須講真的是大規模因為真的好多好多藝人都涉及著相關的一些事件我們把它納入參考將來我們來研議這個方向是不是也有其他的一些可以講成的一個方向好不好沒問題我們會繼續研究這個題目"},{"start":492.443,"end":515.52,"text":"好那接下來我想請教一下就是我在前幾個會期其實大家都應該都知道我非常關心這個影視產業的一個職安的一個問題當然我也感謝這個文化部跟影視局當時給我一個正面的一個回應把這個強化影視科系的這個職安的資能也納入到我們的高教的重要計畫的方向之一"},{"start":516.34,"end":532.207,"text":"那也非常謝謝就是我們的影視局文化部這邊也聽到了我的一個訴求那當然我也特別注意到這個文化部每一年都編列了相關的預算在支持某一些所謂的這個單位在推動所謂的影視職安的一些教育跟宣導的一個活動"},{"start":533.047,"end":538.153,"text":"那我找到了這個單位呢其實他們光是在今年度114年相關的一些計畫經費就達到了430萬元那當然他是從111年到114年這連續幾年下來我發現當然這個方向"},{"start":550.506,"end":574.638,"text":"他們的這個所謂的計畫的方向是值得肯定的但是為了要讓我們的政策能夠有延續性我想請教一下部長幾個制度面上的一個問題就是文化部在核發這些補助的時候有沒有系統性的去追蹤他所提及的各項計畫的內容參與的人數還有他執行的一個成果這個成果是應該要被具體的檢視"},{"start":575.818,"end":597.638,"text":"不然他们可能要再申请明年度或者是后年度还有其他的单位要来申请的时候其实你们应该也会有一些选择的一个准则然后再来第二点就是有没有建立跨年度的成果评估的一个机制如果有的话是不是可以把相关的资料也提供给我的办公室来作为参考"},{"start":598.278,"end":614.408,"text":"再來就是說我們有沒有掌握他們後續在比方說他114年他已經申請了接著下來可能他的活動就會慢慢的展開那有沒有繼續去掌握他們繼續執行的一個方向有沒有偏離初衷這是我比較關心的議題這個部分請教"},{"start":617.771,"end":630.816,"text":"關於那個隱私職安問題我們會列入在我們給輔導金裡面的一個很重要的一項我想這幾年我們做了蠻嚴格的檢驗然後也會追蹤是不是請局長講得更具體好"},{"start":634.04,"end":656.309,"text":"委員好我先針對校園的部分我先回應一下也謝謝委員在去年提醒我們要去跟教育部合作我把最新紀錄跟委員報告今年的2月還有今年的6月教育部在全國大專院校校長會議還有教務主管會議的聯席會議上已經宣導要請各校要積極開設隱私職"},{"start":658.51,"end":683.025,"text":"的相關課程然後最重要的是把強化大專業校影視相關科技職安智能納入高等教育的深恩計畫第二期也就是說請他們就是各學校依照人才培訓的需求提出他們要責定的一個重點工作來推動這一點我們也很感謝教育部特別的跟我們合作非常感謝那另外呢就是剛剛委員提到的就是補助那個職安相關課程的部分"},{"start":684.406,"end":706.412,"text":"那我們其實因為我們是跟台北市戲院工會一直有從111年就開始輔助他們那這麼多年來因為這個工會他們對那個職安的訓練非常的專業所以我們每年都跟他們有相關的合作那委員提到的就是我們其實我們有定期跟他們開工作會議是"},{"start":708.172,"end":734.53,"text":"包括所有的课程我都请同仁都要去上课要去了解真正实际的状况在工作会上我们也跟他们提出一些讨论基本上我们都聚焦在职安这方面他们确实也很专业但今年他们会设立安全人才资料库也有一些工作方也会制作隐私安全的工作手册都是让一些剧组实际了解在职安的重要性以上大概是这样"},{"start":734.71,"end":757.801,"text":"我想这个可能需要一些时间来做这个会诊就是说你们的工作的一些报告那我想没有特别针对哪一个单位但是我们也希望说这个相关的一些执行的成效宣导的场次或者是他的一些评估的报告事后再提供给我们办公室作为参考好吗好谢谢谢谢部长谢谢局长谢谢主席谢谢郭益勤委员执行"}]}},{"id":"165080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d219dc21e146d5010f6e3cb72f09a57cc5372a46263f6085040bb70b5dcafacf595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:34:58 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\n（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員許宇甄等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公司法第二百二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鄭正鈐等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員何欣純等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）本院委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條之一及第四百四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（一）\t本院委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n（一）本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n以上全案於11月5日(星期三)進行合併詢答，11月6日(星期四)處理。【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T11:34:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T11:41:59+08:00","duration":421,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.105968750000001,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.764093750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.548468750000001,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.40784375,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.45846875,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.31909375,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.33159375,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.90909375,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.664093750000003,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.54159375,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.38534375,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.53721875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.75221875,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.726593750000003,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.751593750000005,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.93284375,"end":55.195343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.549718750000004,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.38034375,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.97221875000001,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.11471875000001,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.48534375,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.05409375,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.15846875000001,"end":136.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.97159375,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.76409375,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.53971875000002,"end":180.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.78721875000002,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.36034375,"end":205.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.65284375000002,"end":207.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.50471875000002,"end":216.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.44534375,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.80284375000002,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.00034375,"end":253.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.44284375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.71284375000002,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.06596875,"end":296.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.40659375,"end":310.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.39596875,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.38784375,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.21409375,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.56784375,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.06846875,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.06346875,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.70784375000005,"end":373.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.03159375,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.75721875000005,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.78659375,"end":376.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.76409375000003,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.17971875,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.94471875000005,"end":417.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.13034375,"end":417.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.29909375000005,"end":418.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.15534375000004,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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這個勞動部經濟部有請我們請工部長跟勞動部"},{"start":19.571,"end":40.953,"text":"部長午安今天本席提公司法跟商業登記法的修正內容部長了解嗎我知道我們希望提升一下各界的勞動意識因為台灣八十幾萬家的公司登記其中相對小一人可以成立的有限公司就佔了六十幾萬家"},{"start":41.974,"end":58.43,"text":"那現有商業這個行號等等登記的家屬總共是99萬5千多家啦那其實絕大多數都是所謂的微型企業嘛那微型企業實務上在運作的時候常常出現因為開設的門檻很低速度很快"},{"start":59.891,"end":79.639,"text":"這個三五個人就可以上路但相對來講在這個前期的準備過程中他除了硬性要件資本基本人力等等之外好像也就沒有其他的他其實衍生出了很多後續的勞動爭議也就是這個老闆不見得很了解勞基法規範的內容後來就跟自己僱用的員工產生了各式各樣的一個摩擦這部長了解這個事嗎"},{"start":81.082,"end":103.625,"text":"我知道委員的提議的內涵就很多人這是一個過去的習慣嘛就是說當初大家這個黑手變老闆對不對變投家那很多時候是大家講好就好啦對不對以和為貴這當然是一種社會氛圍但是實際上勞動的法規一直在前進一直在進步那事實上這個這個中央社啊"},{"start":104.185,"end":127.537,"text":"去年8月勞基法40週年的報導裡面其實也寫了很多嘛也雇主不見得熟悉法規法規的宣導力量不足夠特別是針對中小企業的部分很多的勞資正義的調解實務現場中小企業組根本不清楚勞動法例然後或是用過去的觀念來談這個事所以啊這個目前全國違反勞動基準法什麼沒有給付加班費超時加班這個全額工資"},{"start":128.417,"end":146.483,"text":"特休假出行紀錄等等都是好幾千件的這樣子一個勞資糾紛每一個勞資糾紛他都要走漫長的調解等等的一些流程那其實造成很大的這個社會的負擔甚至是司法資源的一些浪費所以大家都討論這件事情希望可以從根源解決這件事情根源是什麼根源是大家都要了解勞動法令嘛"},{"start":146.963,"end":167.394,"text":"所以本席就提了公司法跟商業登記法的這樣一個修正過去我們都只是宣導宣導那宣導他不聽你怎麼辦呢 對不對所以有一些硬性要件本席的修法參考了就業服務法嘛我們現在就業服務法講說我如果要徵聘外勞 對不對所以我就要特別針對勞動法律去上是因為我們害怕侵犯了外籍移工的各式各樣的勞動權益嘛"},{"start":168.835,"end":195.372,"text":"然後變成是 欸 針對移工的時候他是有保障的 針對本國勞工沒有啊然後本國勞工各式各樣的勞資爭議還是一直發生來 請問經濟部 勞動部對於這樣子的一個狀況有沒有什麼具體的解方跟想法 請我先跟委員報告齁目前我們的做法其實在公司設立的那個後面我們都會通知他我們會主動把那個主管機關編制的一些勞動權益的一些相關資料我們會提供網址讓他去查"},{"start":196.536,"end":216.198,"text":"那這個部分我覺得就是說因為這些勞動法規一直有一些新的那我們就會主動告訴那個新設立的公司要去留意這一塊所以就是所謂我剛講的宣導來經濟部如果我們今天要修正相關的一些法規你們見解是什麼不好意思對不起那個如果要修正相關的法規你們現在見解是什麼"},{"start":218.013,"end":245.957,"text":"跟委員報告勞動部這邊做法過去其實我們有開會討論過確實我們也認為說新界雇主確實要了解相關法規但是因為我們確實沒有辦法我們的勞政機關沒有辦法觸及到新雇主所以我們後來有邀集到相關的部會還有地方政府來討論然後我們也經濟部這邊也協助我們就是只要有人登記都會把相關的這個訊息提供給他們然後也包含了我們的一些依化的一些資料也包含了"},{"start":246.657,"end":271.197,"text":"剛剛您說的課程的部分然後就是希望他們能夠就是登記的同時也去上這些課程這是目前的做法對 所以現在問題來了剛剛勞動部也講嘛說我勞政系統我不見得能夠管到雇主嘛因為你商業登記公司成立都是在經濟部的管轄範圍之內嘛那這個界面要來怎麼做整合所以我們才希望體育法來說你要開設公司之前我要有一定的比如說勞動的講習或者是你要有更強強比較強制的一些取得規範"},{"start":271.877,"end":300.092,"text":"那當然我知道站在經濟部的立場你會希望這個可能會增加登記公司的門檻嘛他可能會降低一定的效率他有一定的成本在這過程中本席要求我們可以接受一個折衷的方案可以有一個漸進式的方向但本席不接受的是我們就照宣導就好因為實務上來講宣導的狀況就是成效不髒嘛我都花一點點時間講一個故事啦這本席選區就有遇過啊微型企業做蛋糕的啊蛋糕因為他不知道要投保就業保險因為五人以下不用勞保嘛"},{"start":300.452,"end":327.029,"text":"但要保就業保險對不對勞基法明文規定他不知道勞工知道反過來他賠一大筆錢所以對於雇主來講不瞭解勞動法令不純然只是保障勞工啊某一些層面也是避免雇主一直被開罰嘛所以他其實是對於勞僱雙方都有保障你多瞭解總是好事嘛才不會踩到地雷所以我才希望說商天法院公司法裡面有做一些這樣的配套那我講你講說如果講說一定要講習會浪費很多時間你參考一下就業服務法的精神他叫線上講習嘛"},{"start":328.03,"end":343.641,"text":"線上把相關容易觸犯彩雷的熱點聽完做個簡單的測驗 通過了就通過了也不失為一個辦法嘛來經濟部現在你們對於這個法條的修正有沒有什麼特別的意見或者是方向 可以參考的跟委員報告齁其實剛剛就是勞動部的長官也有提到"},{"start":344.822,"end":365.3,"text":"沒有辦法觸及到這些新設立所以我們現在是會把新設立之後我主動我就是通知公司所在地或商業所在地的勞動主管機關那我們也會跟勞動部這邊只要拿到這個新設立的名單我們就直接去請勞動部那邊或者是我們這邊也可以來協助去接洽這些新設立的公司來上勞動講習的一個課程"},{"start":366.758,"end":386.168,"text":"我跟你講現在這樣子就越搞越複雜了嘛對不對這個我們要看等勞政機關的這個東西然後又要叫到地方政府踢來踢去就麻煩了啦部長有沒有更好的方案沒關係我們今天時間比較有限啦好不好明天可能要做法條討論的時候我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好你要提出具體的方案讓這個東西至少是往前進的這我也要再次提醒除了避免"},{"start":386.468,"end":415.937,"text":"他不是登記前的門檻跟條件希望他登記還是簡便但是登記完以後我們會讓他更多的information希望他去不管是線上上課也好或是等等一些我只擔心單純的提供information是不夠的啦因為他沒有一定的要件的時候他去看了就算了嘛或者是根本就沒看要不然現在不會有那麼多的糾紛我提醒你沒關係機制怎麼設定我們還有一點時間因為明天才要進到法條的討論我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好要提出具體的方案可以讓這個東西至少是往前進的可以嗎"},{"start":417.349,"end":421.259,"text":"好辛苦了谢谢好谢谢谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2257d311aefdb59bc6e3cb72f09a57cc5372a46263f6085040bb70b5dcafacf595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:27:51 - 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重點你有沒有要發展啊"},{"start":272.032,"end":287.619,"text":"有那么多可能性为什么不发展本席在提醒你这个我跟你讲这个最有potential的方式你不处理而且本席也创造出了一个模式上次也邀请了郭智慧部长去看明年一季要运转这明明可以扩大减少争议而且解决很多问题"},{"start":288.888,"end":311.045,"text":"部長麻煩你慎重思考一下好不好把它列為主要的綠能發展的項目之一可以嗎好謝謝那另外一個部分部長下鄉說明這非常重要我講實在話今天綠能太陽光天會落到這種地步老實說除了有人過度的渲染"},{"start":311.906,"end":333.4,"text":"刻意的造謠有關係但是本身我們在推動政策的時候也要檢討第一個有違法事件第二個太過於充量所以造成翻車超車的結果我們要好好思考一下過度KPI的狀況就產生很多的問題最後主席我再最後一個問題還有一個部分這個業務可能你還不清楚在去年10月的時候本席就有去會看過"},{"start":334.421,"end":362.417,"text":"所屬地的這個台南標準基地它剛好在台南火車站的正對面那邊最黃金的地帶卻佔一個冷衙門這本來可以成為啊台南市的這個博物館的所在地你們也都同意了我也去協助國有財產署去找了結果呢 你們不是說不同意這個不符合需要不然就說這地點有長波用 預算過高講到半天你們根本在拖嘛要不要改嘛"},{"start":363.688,"end":369.742,"text":"憑什麼一個雅門站了數十年那個台南的一個黃金地段就在火車站前面根本沒有那需要性啊"},{"start":372.042,"end":396.645,"text":"要不要請標準局說明一下謝謝委員我想標準局在台南分局我們有辦理當地還是有辦理業務的需求那去年委員這個建議以後其實我們有積極在配合文化部還有地方政務的規劃我想我們會積極來配合文化部跟地方政府的整體評估規劃部長我要你一句話你同不同意搬遷"},{"start":397.285,"end":408.309,"text":"抱歉因為這個案子我的確我沒有瞭解我回去瞭解一下好不好瞭解一下啦其實對台南市太不公平了啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"165073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d252548a7c957b0add367e5b5a2f2752d0372a46263f608504641dcf140a8ea5f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:30:52 - 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主席有請李部長請李部長"},{"start":10.618,"end":36.815,"text":"林委員你好部長好首先對於這個文化部跟外交部合作所謂的歐洲文化年2025的這個部分歐洲台灣文化年的這個部分其實本身是予以肯定的因為我知道我們在這個今年度的預算當中文化部跟外交部其實同樣在宣傳預算上面都被在野黨可以說是狠狠地砍下了很多的這個"},{"start":37.515,"end":58.308,"text":"肉啦那麼剛剛我們的召委就是陳秀寶召委在質詢的時候也特別提到了就是希望能夠守護我們現在在這個歐洲宣傳的部分因為本席在上一屆擔任立法委員的時候就曾經說過我們的文化要輸出韓國就是一個非常好的一個榜樣走在前面"},{"start":58.988,"end":79.691,"text":"但是本席其實現在要來特別詢問的就是說我知道我們今年剛好9月的時候本席帶團到法國跟歐洲去訪問的時候剛好部長也出席了就是我們的這個台法文化獎的頒獎典禮那麼在這個頒獎典禮的背後事實上中國的阻力不斷那麼"},{"start":80.451,"end":90.965,"text":"我剛剛稍微了解了一下就是我們在文化交流今年編的預算其實也只有1500萬是嗎那去年是完全被刪除的部長是不是這樣是好"},{"start":94.136,"end":120.393,"text":"其實我要講到的是中國的文化的干擾跟干預包括我們的翠玉白菜在捷克展出的時候其實也同樣受到了恐攻也就是中國的威脅所以部長其實本席非常的肯定就是這一次透過2025歐洲台灣文化年那麼文化部故宮再加上外交部所派駐的館處大家通力合作辦了70場"},{"start":123.514,"end":148.439,"text":"26國讓台灣的文化可以被看見但是我們知道在這些表演團隊當中有些當然已經享譽國際盛名比如像幽仁神鼓比如說像朱宗慶打擊樂團等等但是我們也有許多是一些比較小的小團而這些小團需要的恐怕就是一種協助的宣傳的費用那麼在這個"},{"start":150.059,"end":168.027,"text":"僅有的資源底下尤其現在又面臨預算會期部長怎麼樣來協助我們的藝文團體有機會讓他們到國外去做展現因為台灣的文化跟中國的文化兩個是完全不一樣的而文化外交其實是我們非常重要的部分部長"},{"start":169.537,"end":189.322,"text":"好 謝謝委員問這個問題因為這次委員有跟我們去就發現我們在法國有一個活動就是台灣文化獎得獎人就是一個非常年輕的一個舞者他就帶幾個人自己到各國去表演而且在法國竟然成為一個很有名的舞團在現場"},{"start":191.717,"end":216.97,"text":"我个人感觉都非常感动就是因为我们通常送出去的团都是人也不能太多刚刚您提到那个大团我们的钱变得很少所以我们尽量的鼓励比较小的团出去然后到很多很多点经过这些年累积之后我们几乎在每一个欧洲的国家我们都有固定的一些艺术节也好电影节也好我们几乎都已经占到一个蛮重要的"},{"start":218.15,"end":238.728,"text":"蠻重要的位置那需要的就是一些宣傳費那這次宣傳費被砍掉以後為什麼會跟外交部合作就是因為外交部的宣傳費也被砍掉我們就用兩個部門一起來做做的內容就是我們原來文化部就有的活動加上外交部在每個點的一些能量這樣做"},{"start":240.009,"end":256.257,"text":"那也許因為這樣做所以有點引起中國的注意就是好像整個文化本來是文化交流的本來文化是文化但是跟外交部放在一起的時候就會被中國有機可乘然後見縫插針來阻擋我們的文化展演"},{"start":257.642,"end":277.442,"text":"好 其實部長我要特別提到這一點是因為就像您剛剛提到的我們這個台灣依娜成武製作團隊的B-Dance我們的藝術總監劉柏成他其實就是一個小團他靠自己其實已經被法國所接受甚至於發揚光大但是這樣的預算其實本席也會跟我們其他民黨的委員"},{"start":277.782,"end":296.329,"text":"一起來守護因為這個真的是支持表演團隊那我知道時間到了最後我還是要來問這個問題喔其實本席是最早來提出就是閃兵還能拿三金嗎當時我是質詢國防部的部長因為我這個提議有許多他們的粉絲來攻擊我"},{"start":296.829,"end":322.78,"text":"但是我必須要強調的是剛剛前面有幾位委員已經都提到了個重點那就是納稅跟服兵役是中華民國國民所應盡的義務他是義務也就是說身為中華民國的國民你不能逃避這兩個重點的義務藝人靠的是他的reputation靠的是他的影響力來賺錢"},{"start":325.021,"end":344.934,"text":"那麼當然過去就像部長您也曾經回應過的已經頒的獎我沒有辦法去剝奪它也可以既往不咎但是面對接下來的三金尤其是政府給資源那麼我認為就不能背離我們國家所給予公民的義務"},{"start":346.115,"end":372.103,"text":"那麼是不是就像前面的委員所講的包括領選辦法包括給獎辦法能夠跟這三個執委會做討論因為我曾經在國防外交委員會有放過這個韓國的藝人他們在當兵之前影迷是如何歡迎他當兵要退役的時候影迷又是如何的歡迎他他們甚至於在營區外面對"},{"start":373.427,"end":402.727,"text":"影迷來行大禮這就表示說這種就是一種拉抬的效果正面的肯定就是要當兵真的是哥哥爸爸真偉大當兵就是一種榮譽但是如果說今天接下來我們對於三金在這個部分遴選辦法不做修正我認為這個是打臉國防部打臉其他認真遵守國家義務去服兵役的這些年輕朋友們"},{"start":403.807,"end":423.204,"text":"部長所以有沒有可能做一些修正剛剛委員講到那個當兵是一種榮譽那其實國安部顧立雄部長已經在其實已經進行了不少影片在強調那個當兵的那個光榮性我覺得一方面"},{"start":424.565,"end":438.529,"text":"如何撤掉這個不單兵的人不能夠得三金這個是另外一個問題如何讓大家覺得單兵是一種榮耀這也是另外一個問題但是這兩個問題可以放在一起討論那我想我們會後我再繼續繼續來討論這個議題因為我們已經進行了滿久的一個跟三個單位討論很久了"},{"start":445.871,"end":463.485,"text":"是 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謝謝主席 請下林佳龍部長請部長就備懸抬部長 你是戰龍嗎我是 佳龍如果按照文字應該是好龍啦戰貓 戰龍"},{"start":20.99,"end":26.692,"text":"我是林佳龍 就是顧名思義 要耐心一點你是溫柔的龍就佳龍我看你現在已經轉化成戰龍了剛才葉元之委員特別提到CNN報導那個報導你竟然跟他講說 這樣是一個認知作戰那他說 欸 這不是CNN報導啊這不是台灣的媒體報導啊你說這就是一個認知作戰好歹CNN是"},{"start":51.226,"end":64.14,"text":"美國的一個主流媒體雖然川普跟CNN的關係非常差他告這個CNN但是你作為一個外交部長在立法院接受質詢針對這個事情直接指涉CNN是認知作戰就這一個報導本身我覺得這就是CNN報導啊我們希望他更正"},{"start":73.51,"end":86.574,"text":"CNN過去你可以去要求他更正但是你說他是配合認知作戰這就不妥啊這是不是失言請問一下部長是不是失言CNN過去對台來講也算是友好的啊那媒體容或有一些報導你認為報導的失誤或者相關的評論但是你把CNN現在歸類為說他配合認知作戰"},{"start":98.258,"end":111.749,"text":"這個報導本身是一個認知錯占的一部分他是不是不小心或者是怎麼樣因為他可以很輕易的查證那也許有疏失但是就整個他配合什麼認知錯占我想我的不是說是哪一個媒體認知錯占是說這背後有一個勢力啊你在這裡就是嚴重的失言啊其實啊 老師說啊不是啊 我覺得你腦筋很不清楚你剛剛還很得意洋洋說策劃"},{"start":122.958,"end":125.259,"text":"去歐洲訪問非常好你到智庫歐洲的智庫去演講也非常好結果被外媒披露說我們另外一個團去訪問了北約總部那剛才媒體也有問你 請問一下外媒報導是事實嗎"},{"start":143.271,"end":157.522,"text":"哪一點我們在歐洲的訪問團裡面其中有一團到北約總部訪問因為這前後很多團那我們在做戰略溝通也有一團譬如說我在波蘭所以確實有到北約總部訪問嗎我們不予證實也不予否認所以也就是默認就不予評論部長"},{"start":167.549,"end":171.33,"text":"我要講說你說對歐洲的關係很重要我們完全同意啊所以我剛才說我們去歐洲訪問外交部長去演講或者我們拓展跟歐洲各國的這個相關的關係對外關係或者經貿合作採購投資相互的往來都非常好但是我想請問一下台海之間難道還不夠危險嗎"},{"start":195.996,"end":203.861,"text":"世界各國的媒體都報導台灣台海是現在全世界非常危險的地方北約是什麼組織啊北約是經貿組織嗎他是單純的他的那個組織是軍事同盟是對抗俄羅斯的軍事同盟"},{"start":214.244,"end":225.352,"text":"我想請問一下 我們已經有一個這麼強大的中國的軍事威脅我請問你 你今天要去得罪俄羅斯幹什麼北約組織是一個軍事同盟台灣有能力去跟北約軍事同盟嗎"},{"start":233.953,"end":239.936,"text":"我們需要一連串去得罪這些核武大國嗎所以我覺得你們腦筋真的不清楚發展外交發展經貿合作我們舉雙手贊成不要去搞那種軍事對抗台灣沒有這種條件去跟人家核武大國去搞軍事對抗你是要透露什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":257.113,"end":269.446,"text":"你是要透露什麼樣的訊息你覺得台灣的軍事威脅還不夠嗎所以我真的覺得這種都是腦筋不清楚好大喜功然後以為我們現在要提高國防支出3%不夠 5% 10%俄羅斯也來跟我們對抗好嗎"},{"start":277.352,"end":293.147,"text":"另外請教一下因為這次川習會結束之後因為他們又透露一個訊息川普明年4月要到這個中國訪問那我想請問一下因為之前"},{"start":294.228,"end":315.983,"text":"我們賴總統一直希望能夠藉由出訪的機會過境美國東岸但是呢一直的說法是因為會與川習會的關係所以美國有一些疑慮所以我們沒有辦法過境這個美國東岸那我想請問一下部長"},{"start":318.055,"end":342.93,"text":"川習會之後 雖然終於川習會了可是他現在又來一個卡一個川習 就是川普要到美國訪問 中國 對不起 到中國訪問那所以我們在這半年之間我們有可能突破讓賴總統能夠過境美國出訪我們的友邦嗎我講的是東南"},{"start":346.022,"end":362.375,"text":"報告委員 元首出訪都是我們外交部的重要政務我們也都會持續在評估規劃至於說決定以及對外的說明由總統府他們目前我們沒有什麼訊息可以提供所以繼續規劃中"},{"start":366.531,"end":368.493,"text":"繼續規劃中當然我們一定會評估嘛因為這個我請問部長因為有川習會的關係所以使得外界都認為說因為當時蔡英文總統非常快速的就過境美國出訪邦交國那麼"},{"start":385.871,"end":387.693,"text":"那麼現在專行會結束之後以現在的情勢你認為在短期內你可以成功的去規劃你剛剛不講你都策劃嗎那你可以策劃或者規劃然後我們賴總統可以過境美國出訪嗎"},{"start":404.957,"end":416.482,"text":"元首出訪是外交部重要的政務我們會持續的推動至於說如果有具體的決定或者是相關的安排那會由總統府對外來說明"},{"start":417.23,"end":421.552,"text":"好 那另外請問一下川習會後你覺得台美關係是變得更好還是可能會有所受影響或變得更壞一點你的評估 我跟委員報告其實我在這裡備詢我就在講台美關係要有信心"},{"start":434.859,"end":449.371,"text":"我們對於像川習會這些APEC開會我們是要關心但不必過度擔心那現在事後也證明我想很多過去的一些不確定性甚至有一些大家很擔心的地方已經現在很清楚因為沒有談到台灣大家鬆一口氣"},{"start":454.895,"end":459.758,"text":"不過因為不曉得啦就說我剛剛講說明年四月出訪行程搞不好又會申辯這也說不一定啦那只是說你未來這個川普又出訪的行程那麼可能未來半年我們可能還是處於一個不確定因素比較多的那我想請問一下國際情勢永遠有它不確定的地方對 沒有錯我想請問一下喔在川習會之後因為呢中美兩國的防長也見面了是"},{"start":483.815,"end":486.037,"text":"我覺得這個對於消除台海之間的一些這個危機其實我認為有利不要有做誤判但是呢美國其實先是叫戰爭部他的戰爭部部長赫格賽斯他發文說他"},{"start":501.073,"end":506.694,"text":"認為美中關係現在是前所未有的良好那我想請問一下在這樣的一個敘述之下你認為會不會影響到台美關係台灣是不是會受影響報告委員美中關係美台關係可以是平行的所以我們也不認為說美中關係不好就對台灣好那美中關係如果好也可能可以對台灣好那取決於我們台灣跟美國的關係怎麼加強"},{"start":530.785,"end":539.525,"text":"所以你至少到目前為止你不認為川習會之後或者是赫格塞茲他的發文之後那麼台美關係有受到任何影響"},{"start":540.317,"end":554.846,"text":"對 我跟委員報告 至少沒有意外另外我們更確定了 包括他們的談話不斷跟我們溝通的也都如原來溝通的內容這樣子發展請問一下 在川習會之後美國有跟我們報告相關的所有我們都有這樣的管道所有的資訊都有掌握有好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d29e08095c924a4b6588b64aa779fa24d2e98bf0b6cf7b51044699aaf52c7902745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:05:54 - 09:07:55","影片長度":"00:02:01","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等20人、(三)委員李坤城等18人、(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、(五)委員羅美玲等19人、(六)委員黃捷等21人、(七)委員邱鎮軍等21人、(八)委員吳沛憶等16人、(九)委員林楚茵等17人、(十)委員沈伯洋等18人、(十一)委員蔡易餘等17人、(十二)委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「電信管理法第七十二條條文修正草案」案及(十三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「電信管理法增訂第七十二條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等19人、(三)委員李坤城等17人、(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人、(五)委員黃捷等22人、(六)委員吳沛憶等16人、(七)委員林楚茵等17人、(八)委員沈伯洋等18人、(九)委員蔡易餘等16人及(十)委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「氣象法第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等20人、(三)委員李坤城等18人、(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai 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還有各位立法院同仁以及出席的官員 近年來我國海底電纜屢遭惡意破壞 今年的1月 順興39號在基隆港外海"},{"start":15.25,"end":43.323,"text":"脫斷了我們的國際通訊海欄而2月又發生了紅太58在台南北門外海脫斷台澎通訊電纜兩艘都是中資背景的權宜輪這些蓄意破壞的行為不僅衝擊了我國聯外通訊更可能涉及中國灰色地帶的侵擾行動已經嚴重危害到了我們的國家安全我想這個部分是全體國人現在都非常有共識的"},{"start":43.783,"end":69.845,"text":"那麼為了因應中國船舶破壞海纜的事件立法院其實是在112年就已經修正了電信管理法將保護範圍從國際海纜登陸站擴大到國內海纜機房跟纜線同時加重了相關的法則然而對於犯罪用的船舶或是其他工具的保管問題則缺乏明確的法源依據"},{"start":70.666,"end":95.227,"text":"所以本席提案修正電信管理法的第72條明定犯罪工具的沒收及處置規定只要是用於故意危害海嵐設施的工具或是船舶不論是否屬於犯罪行為人所有一律沒收經判決確定後可以依個案情節予以拍賣"},{"start":96.964,"end":119.943,"text":"變賣 無償供流供用廢棄或做其他適當的處置這一項的修正不僅能解決犯罪傳播的保管問題更能強化嚇阻效果展現我國捍衛基礎建設的決心懇請各位委員支持這一項修法我們共同來守護我國通訊安全與國家安全 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d277667054dc6f32c188b64aa779fa24d2e98bf0b6cf7b51044cfe8036c3757b085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:04:16 - 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謝謝主席本席將對這個傳播法第8條及89條的修正草案提案說明因為台灣近年連接連發生外國傳播在領海內為常滯留甚至破壞我國海底通訊電纜導致離島通訊中斷本島通訊受阻等情形嚴重影響民生經濟及國家安全"},{"start":27.021,"end":48.833,"text":"現行傳播法對非中華民國傳播之行為僅限於港灣停泊規範其他法規如中華民國領海及領階區法並未明定其與我國領海內滯留或非無害通過時執法機關得採取之行政作為造成執法機關執法困難以及無法可罰的困境"},{"start":49.753,"end":65.124,"text":"本次修法主要在於補足現行法制之不足增訂明確規範非中華民國傳播除特許或無害通過外不得在我國領海滯留並授權主管機關得命其立即離境處以罰緩必要時得強制驅離或沒入傳播"},{"start":69.767,"end":83.544,"text":"透過本次修正希望能強化我國領海航行管理保護海底電纜等關鍵基礎設施安全確保國家主權與海域安全不再受到威脅也懇請各位立委同仁支持"}]}},{"id":"165006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2327984af96ea7ee388b64aa779fa24d2e98bf0b6cf7b51044cfe8036c3757b085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:02:02 - 09:04:03","影片長度":"00:02:01","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等20人、(三)委員李坤城等18人、(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai 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謝謝主席 有請李部長請部長"},{"start":18.038,"end":34.409,"text":"林佩霞委員你好部長早有關中國國民黨黨團我們在10月30號的時候針對公廣集團董事提名召開過記者會那想請問一下就是說目前董監事名單何時提出目前進度如何"},{"start":35.114,"end":52.587,"text":"好 關於這一點事情跟委員報告按照規定我們在董建市到期的前半年就要啟動這個甄選的計畫那我們文化部的確按照規定在半年前去年11月就啟動了這個報告然後啟動這個整個作業調查在調查過程中"},{"start":60.646,"end":83.579,"text":"我在這邊抱歉就的確是我們在過程中非常不順利因為這次是第一次審查委員從3%降到2%照理說應該更簡單但是因為之前的有一些公共電視選拔這個委員的過程中非常的不順利而且成為一個新聞例如"},{"start":84.554,"end":103.676,"text":"例如有兩屆的時間是審查幾乎到一千天也就是有兩屆的委員審查到一千天接近一千天還有一屆委員提名了四十九人刪掉三十個人像這樣的新聞造成我在甄選的過程中非常不順利我舉個例子"},{"start":104.537,"end":118.59,"text":"其中有一個我徵詢的委員他告訴我說我會耽誤你們的選拔因為我可能過去很多言論得罪了誰那這是其中一個其中一個意見於是我在徵詢過程中"},{"start":120.424,"end":136.439,"text":"遇到了很多的困難因為公共電視是一個大家都非常重視的公共媒體當我們選委員的時候必須照顧到族群還有各種文化還有性別還有專業我也必須老實講"},{"start":138.516,"end":153.414,"text":"外界就是質疑因為老實說我們從今年1月就已經公布了15位審查委員的名單那你也剛剛自己講了公示法也行修法降低同意門檻理論上應該更順暢但是還是零提名"},{"start":154.074,"end":176.691,"text":"这样外界就开始在质疑某个程度上已经到现在已经拖了一年的之后外界常常质疑说这就是充满了政治盘算是不是要意图让现任的董监事无限连任继续掌控公网集团呢这一点我跟委员解释一下这一点绝对不会是政治盘算的原因是原来的每一个"},{"start":177.748,"end":202.18,"text":"委員也是經過前一次的評選非常嚴格的評選也挑出來非常專業的董監事這個董監事的過程按照規定時間其實很有限而且這問題大家都很關心我提出一個解決方案您知道說中選會最近很多委員任期都滿了"},{"start":203.08,"end":230.263,"text":"那我们是不是可以比照中选会由行政院发函给各党团来推荐公事的董监事人选呢因为必须这样讲现在公事已经超过已经快超过一年了你刚才讲说征询的征询了将近三年那这样下去总不是个办法那如果说中选会可以这样做的话是否我们在公事集团的人事上面可以比照有一个目前有个先例出来我想"},{"start":231.044,"end":254.83,"text":"立法院提出来的人选应该不会被立法院强力攻击吧对吧如果说你刚刚讲就是说有很多考量有很多不同的想法那老实说我们就应该把它变成说各党团来推荐各党团都有知道的文化人也是可以希望而且由各党团推荐反而更能够展现所谓的公平性不是吗"},{"start":257.079,"end":278.931,"text":"委員的建議我再解釋一下按照規定是由行政院提出一個名單然後立法院黨團派人他負責審議那名單是由行政院提出這就是我們覺得很頭痛的地方因為行政院這樣做法其實讓一般的民眾會讓尤其是讓關心的學者們會覺得這根本在執法玩法亂法嘛"},{"start":279.608,"end":306.991,"text":"因為拖了這麼久如果說今天這個案子沒有拖了這麼久的話本席不會在這邊特地拿出來談而且部長你也知道第七屆董監事延宕的也是將近快三年967天的治理亂象那時候這個延宕導致說公視新聞的資料無端被刪除華視新聞內容連續出包甚至我們的媒體公信力嚴重流失最後面被監察院認證成行政怠惰"},{"start":307.651,"end":335.445,"text":"那文化部現在要重蹈覆轍嗎這樣對於我們國家是好嗎對於整個執政團隊是好嗎我認為不是耶所以提早趕快把這個人選拿出來這是很重要的一塊因為拖太久了我想我今天在這邊質詢我是純粹善意去了解這個狀況如果是別人來這邊質詢的話恐怕就是不是這樣講但是如果你們不能夠盡快的提出一個好總監事人選或許"},{"start":336.506,"end":351.839,"text":"或许依照现在中选例提出来的解决方式也不是唯一一个好方法毕竟来讲公示这边已经延宕太久延宕到现在已经变成国家议题的时候这绝对不是公示之福也绝对不是整个实证团结之福不是吗"},{"start":353.271,"end":372.271,"text":"是委员讲得非常对公司从1998年成立到现在我觉得它是一个在很少的预算下努力发展的一个公共媒体但是它因为董建师的甄选当初定出这样一个审议办法之后刚刚我跟委员报告有两次是1000天都选不出来"},{"start":373.132,"end":401.096,"text":"可是行政院已經把名單提出來了那什麼時候行政院給我們現在這個名單的因為從上個禮拜我們開記者會到現在又快過了一個禮拜那這個案子其實大家都很關注所以為什麼會把這件事特地第一個我今天第一個質詢就拿出來談因為這東西不能再等下去不管是你們心中有什麼樣的人選總是出來要給大家檢視你不能是說現在看起來大家沒有注意到就不去做這樣其實是不好的"},{"start":401.636,"end":415.609,"text":"對整個國家治理對整個媒體治理是不對的我覺得部長你認同這句話吧我認同而且我道歉因為照理說這個聽起來是有點時間上拉的真的很長甚至於你會覺得這個事情有點荒謬是嗎"},{"start":416.81,"end":433.741,"text":"但是我覺得所有的花沒有來自前面累積的太長一段大家對這個選拔過程非常沒有信心像我打電話親自去拜訪很多委員我幾乎都沒有成功我也試著從原來的一些上一任的委員中也一直去尋找拜訪"},{"start":434.421,"end":450.601,"text":"你拖得越久这种怀疑就越来越多我必须直接讲我现在是直接讲你拖得越久怀疑越来越多甚至外界有人讲说你是政治人民就是因为个人喜好人民你也听说过这样的讲法那其实这个事情如果越拖越久对大家都不好"},{"start":451.101,"end":467.423,"text":"公視需要一個新的總監事名單那社會大眾需要看到文化部行政院有實質上的作為但是如果沒有實質上的作為的時候就會讓人家異想紛紛啊就會讓大家覺得說公視到底裡面有什麼黑箱就算說現在部長在這邊是特地說"},{"start":468.064,"end":497.285,"text":"为了这个延宕我很抱歉但是大家可能期待的不只是个道歉而是个真正我们大家可以认可的公示名单这点很重要这点不分党派都很重要因为这是公示公示一般来讲是我们认为最有公信力的媒体但是这一段下来变成是他公信力因为这样的人事的延宕而去受损的时候这个不是对不起部长不是说道歉不对道歉不是没有价值但是大家会觉得说这不够啊是吧"},{"start":498.678,"end":525.397,"text":"所以本席在这边会第一个就是希望说我们公示名单赶快出来之外第二个我真的认为是说中选会既然有行政院发函给各党团来推荐公示的总监事名单那我觉得文化部可以审慎考虑一下这样的作为或许这样能够快速的解决我们现在遇到的困境您说是吗因为这个名单是由行政院提出我们是"},{"start":526.624,"end":548.54,"text":"作業單位可能您要試著去說服行政院不然的話這樣下去風暴已經開始了這風暴不會因為說一時沒有看到就停下來風暴只會越來越大您跟文化部甚至行政院受到責難只會越來越多所以本席在這邊談題出來講麻煩董監事人事名單盡快決定下來而且讓大家能夠去公審好不好"},{"start":555.425,"end":580.952,"text":"是 我尽快为提出一个名单是大家都可以接受的一个大家都觉得很专业的一个名单其实我们已经努力到最后关头大概剩下一两个所以这件事情还差两个我没有什么理由拖因为你怎么样想都是它不是一个多么让人家想要争取的位置因为它是没有薪水然后只有责任没有好处所以大家一直觉得它是黑箱其实没什么道理它不是一个好像是一个"},{"start":581.977,"end":603.817,"text":"很肥的植物大家要搶而且他也不是一個黑手因為政府的手也沒有伸進去這點都是外面誤會了我們比較期待就事論事公視的董監事名單現在全國都在看那我們立法院每個委員都在看我們期待說在這方面來講行政院文化部速度可以快一點早點名單出來讓我們公審好 謝謝好 我盡快 謝謝"},{"start":606.568,"end":613.819,"text":"謝謝林沛翔委員質詢 部長請回座我們現在現場的委員人數有達到一決人數我們先來確定一下"}]}},{"id":"165000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d231ead360831449c1e93813deec41dbcae98bf0b6cf7b5104440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"09:17:59 - 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謝謝好 謝謝陳超明委員接下來請徐益臻委員做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"164999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d25c1fa8d18f308baee93813deec41dbcae98bf0b6cf7b5104440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:16:04 - 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以上好 謝謝羅廷維委員接下來我們請陳昌明委員做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"164998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d250b6fd53752ab9ca6e3cb72f09a57cc5e98bf0b6cf7b5104e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:11:51 - 09:14:42","影片長度":"00:02:51","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： \n（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員許宇甄等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公司法第二百二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鄭正鈐等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員何欣純等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）本院委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條之一及第四百四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（一）\t本院委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n（一）本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n以上全案於11月5日(星期三)進行合併詢答，11月6日(星期四)處理。【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T09:11:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T09:14:42+08:00","duration":171,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.42284375,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.72909375,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.51471875,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.914718750000006,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.31596875,"end":151.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.29846875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.14784375000002,"end":170.46846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.52,"end":30.431,"text":"主席 各位同仁大家早本期今天所提出的是公司法第387條的修正草案目的很單純就是希望讓法理法律回到常理讓實務能被看見現行台灣規定公司登記的代理人僅限會計師律師但記帳是法第13條早已明文記帳是得受委任辦理營業變更註銷停付業及其他登記事項"},{"start":31.271,"end":54.051,"text":"兩法不一致 讓想創業的民眾充滿繞路跟徒增成本的荒謬台灣九成以上的中小企業創業初期其實最倚重的專業夥伴大部分都是記帳室他們熟悉設立變更稅務跟帳務的流程是協助企業從零到一的第一線所以因為公司法的限制 明明全案都是由記帳室承辦"},{"start":54.992,"end":67.435,"text":"但是呢到最後送件仍要見名會計師或律師增加費用拉長時程也讓責任鏈不清楚制度與現實長期的脫節不僅壓縮計帳室依法執業的空間亦浪費社會資源讓創業者更是不必要的負擔保安修正在第三項甄列計帳室明定前兩項是申請的"},{"start":78.559,"end":104.68,"text":"代理人以會計師 律師 記章師為線這不是擴權 而是法制的統一不是降低門檻 而是尊重專業的分工記章師早就具有國家考試跟專業的監督依法負責 可受集合承辦登記事務的能力與責任早有制度保障讓能者依法為之 可提升效率 降低成本 明確責任亦能夠強化主管機關的追蹤與管理"},{"start":106.101,"end":118.009,"text":"修法後 會計師與律師的專業價值不會被取代在查核 見證 訴訟等領域仍有其不可替代的角色我們只是讓長年在座的人能夠名正言順把流程的斷點補上把責任的揮曲釐清這對創業者來說是利多"},{"start":124.794,"end":149.156,"text":"對行政體系來說是減壓對產業環境來說是加速器法律本來就應當隨著社會脈動而進步當現實走到面前法條就不該成為絆腳石而這次的修正即使法制統一的必要也是一種務實的選擇它不會改變登記制度的監督強度反而會讓制度更加透明化跟合理化所以為了讓社會運作更為順暢即將是"},{"start":151.66,"end":167.976,"text":"長年默默支持台灣的中小企業他們是最了解企業細節經營的一群人今天我們只希望透過這項修正讓法律能夠回歸常理讓專業能夠各司其職也能讓創業者少一些不必要的障礙謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2874bf2f8e9bf73c96e3cb72f09a57cc5e98bf0b6cf7b510469935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:09:03 - 09:11:46","影片長度":"00:02:43","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： \n（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員許宇甄等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公司法第二百二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鄭正鈐等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員何欣純等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）本院委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條之一及第四百四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（一）\t本院委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n（一）本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n以上全案於11月5日(星期三)進行合併詢答，11月6日(星期四)處理。【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T09:09:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T09:11:46+08:00","duration":163,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.92534375,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.78784375,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.617843750000006,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":64.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.59471875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.63159375000001,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.54159375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.34784375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.14409375000001,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.76346875,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.41971875000002,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.83971875,"end":160.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.08596875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":164.64659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.573,"end":2.103,"text":"那我們請徐玉珍委員請做準備 謝謝"},{"start":8.981,"end":37.321,"text":"主席各位同仁今天我本席提出公司法第160條修正草案是要解決食物上一顆常年埋在台灣家族企業傳承路上的餵爆彈股份共有時股東權利如何行使的問題第一現行法規的制度陷阱第160條已成為僵局條款在現行制度下股份為數人共有時理論上必須全體共有人一致同意"},{"start":37.981,"end":62.427,"text":"才能出席股東會行使表決權這就產生了一個巨大的制度陷阱法律只規定了應推定一人卻沒有規定當共友人無法推定一人時該怎麼辦只要其中一個共友人不同意公司股東會就無法召開董事改選決算報告通過無法進行決議只保護了既得利益者"},{"start":63.707,"end":79.605,"text":"企業於違法跟停擺的狀態其他多數共有人的股權被漠視少數霸凌多數第二法體系失衡民法土地法已經先行公司法嚴重落後台灣的法律體系對於"},{"start":80.606,"end":102.237,"text":"共有物管理的原則早已從全體同意走向多數決本法參酌土地法第34條之一以及民法第820條的多數決原則改採共有人人數過半且應有部分過半即可推定一人代理行使股東權利這樣既能尊重多數意見也可避免"},{"start":102.697,"end":130.625,"text":"依然否決的一個惡性僵局同時也保留彈性允許共友人書面通知公司保留部分權利可扣除其產生共有關係的背後比例以確保個別權益不受侵害為避免多數決產生權利濫用疑慮若有共友人權益受到實質損害仍得向法院申請救濟由法院進行個案審酌保障權益"},{"start":131.485,"end":159.725,"text":"令無法推定代理人時得依多數決直接召集股東會並行使表決權確保公司治理不因內部爭議而中斷本修法是在公司治理效率與共有人權益之間找到最佳的一個平衡點懇請各位委員同仁支持讓台灣的企業能有一步真正符合現實需求與時俱進的公司法以上 謝謝"},{"start":161.141,"end":164.243,"text":"好我们谢谢接下来我们请"}]}},{"id":"164996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2f062e1bb1edd297ee93813deec41dbcae98bf0b6cf7b510469935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:13:30 - 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本提案兼顧了環境永續"},{"start":116.548,"end":138.135,"text":"延長免稅 鼓勵中低功率節能車款的普及還有社會正義 增設馬力門檻讓高性能豪華車款回歸稅制那懇請各位委員同仁大家支持我們共同為台灣的交通轉型與永續未來一起努力 謝謝好 我們謝謝徐姓委員接下來請羅廷維委員"},{"start":146.308,"end":147.229,"text":"好 时间两分钟"}]}},{"id":"164995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2529114485d739591e93813deec41dbcae98bf0b6cf7b5104c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"09:11:55 - 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謝謝好 謝謝李燕瑞委員"},{"start":82.253,"end":89.133,"text":"接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來請徐欣英委員做提案說明"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}