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謝謝趙偉 有請院長請蕭院長羅院長"},{"start":11.872,"end":39.898,"text":"好院長今天看你們的業務報告這裡面有提到有關於辦理校園大使的計劃管校合作還有教育部青年發展署的大專生工部門的見習計劃還有青少年的導覽員計劃等青年的一個行銷活動我有幾個問題想跟你請問一下院長請問學生如果去故宮當志工大多做哪些工作志工的話"},{"start":42.332,"end":67.724,"text":"一般来讲的话就做导览学生的志工他基本上来讲的话是一个见习的一个学习的过程我们会把它当作是一个示范的演练可是真正上线的话以学生来讲的话就是大概还没有办法所以基本上就是做导览员吗是那请问一下学生如果去故宫实习又做哪些工作"},{"start":69.225,"end":85.877,"text":"實習根據不同的工作單位,譬如說如果他是修護的實習的話,他在修護室,如果是他策展的話跟著策展的同仁,教推的話跟著教推的同仁,他要根據他們申請實習的項目去分配單位。"},{"start":86.638,"end":110.224,"text":"好那本期想再談一個看似是小事情喔但是卻有長遠的一個大問題就是故宮的學生實習的制度故宮到底是找實習生還是找志工要先想清楚這個問題我想請問一下喔院長你知道依據故宮訂定的學生實習業務管理要點"},{"start":111.687,"end":138.951,"text":"院方明文規定以學習為目的不提供薪資及其他的津貼報酬僅在專案申請的情況之下才能夠合計相關的外縣市的交通住宿費也就是說多數的實習生在故宮全程實習一個月甚至兩個月都沒有任何的補助本席在社群媒體看到學生反應他們下的註解是台灣人就是奴"},{"start":140.151,"end":164.819,"text":"院長你認同學生在故宮貼上這樣子的一個標籤嗎我覺得實習生有實習生的一個制度這個制度由來已久我過去在油管擔任館長的時候其實這個制度的話都是國內包括文化部包括教育部的一個實習制度都是一樣的你有看到這個圖片嗎麻煩你看一下"},{"start":165.764,"end":191.562,"text":"同仁有傳給我 我看過了好 我想因為勞動的法規一直在變而面對勞動權益的一個保障不斷精進就勞動部的立場是不是勞工要不要給付薪資認定在於有沒有指揮 監督 分派工作以及去年我還提出了中研院政治所違反勞動法規因為他的助理薪資未達4萬卻沒有公開的一個揭示"},{"start":192.503,"end":219.573,"text":"只写着依本院讲注学金的知己要点这已经违反了救福法的一个规定所以在故宫的学生实习的业务管理要点第七点就已经写到有实习项目的指派督导及考核各实习单位依全责管理办理所以他就是有实际从事一些工作而不是站在那边看看就好"},{"start":220.313,"end":237.275,"text":"那我想學生在故宮的時期故宮會不會幫學生投勞保或者是職保保險的部分的話故宮會處理是所以就是會有職保是嗎不好意思您可以回應一下嗎一般保險就是"},{"start":238.72,"end":253.932,"text":"就投保一般保險對因為他沒有領我們的薪資所以沒有辦法做職業保險好那如果他發生了相關的一些災害說職業災害基本上來講的話我們的因為你不認定他是職業嗎對我們的一般保險都可以cover"},{"start":254.434,"end":283.132,"text":"好 那我想喔在這樣的情況之下 第八點喔雖然規定專案申請可以只付外縣市的一個交通住宿費請問院長 過去三年內實際有多少單位提出專案補助補助的比例跟金額個為多少沒有所以是不是因為程序的繁瑣導致這項規定形同就是只有劇文還是大家都非常有愛都不願意申請"},{"start":284.4,"end":300.487,"text":"我还是跟委员报告一下因为实习生的制度的话是所有的博物馆包括国外的博物馆的话也有这样的一个制度那它跟建教合作不一样建教合作的话就是基本上来讲的话就是你名义上是实习但是实际上是有薪水的"},{"start":301.167,"end":327.121,"text":"那至於說這樣的一個制度要不要改變的話那會牽涉到所有的博物館而不是故宮自己單行就是說好我付給他薪水因為同樣情況的話志工就專業的志工的話在各個館也有不同的情況有的館可以付籌碼費100塊有的館可以提供便當然後有的館什麼都沒有提供那只是給他交易信任這都有"},{"start":328.851,"end":341.079,"text":"但是都是要在一個規範下去進行當然當然都要有規範下我想這些學生是真正參與到文化現場那為故宮也是貢獻他們的熱情跟專業您認為這樣的實習辦法會有同學願意來實習嗎"},{"start":345.715,"end":364.089,"text":"也是非常強非常強烈因為故宮是一個非常吸引人的地方因為故宮真的有值得學習的一個地方真的是一個學習的地方因為我們不願意把那個實習生當作替代人力當作勞工而是說我們希望說他們參與故宮的一個"},{"start":365.11,"end":386.728,"text":"參與文化學習文化並且能夠提升一些經驗但是我要講的是說今天我具體的跟您做一個探討我們沒有任何的批評但是我希望在探討當中能夠有所大家一起來檢討現行的制度是不是可以更好所以是否可以檢討修正現行的要點建立文化實習的支持制度"},{"start":388.389,"end":404.977,"text":"讓實習生能夠獲得基本的交通餐費補貼或保險不僅符合教育目的更展現國家對文化人才的重視尊重如果我們連正在學習連願意走進博物館的年輕人都不願意給予一些支持我想未來會不會"},{"start":407.039,"end":427.737,"text":"比较没办法有更多的年轻人愿意投入这一个行业或者是愿意去走进故宫我们在讲的是未来我知道刚刚我是问过你你说很多年轻人愿意走进故宫那现在来说应该是OK对 我跟委员报告我们愿意来研议因为实习生的制度的话牵涉到教育部"},{"start":428.377,"end":447.583,"text":"是就是因為我們的牽動的話會影響到教育部影響到其他的情況如果說故宮開始付薪水的話所有人都來故宮然後所有的其他的實習包括地方博物館的話都會沒有實習生因為他們沒有發薪水我知道所以這個我要講的是說我剛所說的不是說給予薪資"},{"start":449.964,"end":478.534,"text":"基本的交通餐費補貼或者是剛剛說的你們有做的一般的保險這個部分能不能列入到這個所謂的我們建立文化實習的一個支持制度我希望說他是一個為了後面的50年再來建制的一個要點因為我要講的是現在故宮一樣在21世紀保有他的文化吸引更多的年輕人來到這邊實習那後面的50年呢會不會因為科技的進步讓年輕人開始"},{"start":479.514,"end":506.166,"text":"不愿意去踏入历史不愿意踏入去文化有需要这样子的一个跟委员报告我们会跟教育部来演上因为我们也不希望说因为故宫的作动然后影响到其他的一个实习的对 当全部人都只涌入到故宫的时候我们也会担忧所以我说的是不是在这样子的一个状况之下取得一个平衡只是支持而不是给予一个薪资这部分我希望我们会后再继续的讨论是 我们会来演绎好 谢谢谢谢罗天"}]}},{"id":"165138","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c04985fb976aacc65f337fb9388085e3bb15cd27f7aef3b91a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:20:35 - 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謝謝召委 我們是不是請院長請蕭院長柯委員早院長早請問院長北越你知道距離我們最近的警察局距離大概多少他的派出所的話距離我們大概200公尺吧200公尺 下山以後對200公尺 萬一故宮發生任何事故的話警察多久時間可以到達"},{"start":24.732,"end":38.801,"text":"我們有所謂的六分鐘六分鐘嗎 有做過這個演練嗎副院長說五分鐘五分鐘有做過這個演練嗎我們有做過演練有做過演練啊 什麼時候一年多少次"},{"start":43.431,"end":69.078,"text":"所以是600公尺一年做多少次为什么要特别提出这个问题因为很严重罗浮宫发生非常大的一个重大的窃案然后故宫就说你们要深自的警惕跟反省引以为戒所以说我们当然要来了解一下这个故宫有没有这个安全的维护包括防盗防窃冲突事件那罗浮宫呢距离警察局大概是800公尺结果7分钟之内被偷了8件的宝物所以院长"},{"start":70.038,"end":94.464,"text":"你們是600公尺五分鐘就會到200公尺五分鐘會到然後呢剩下的然後每年多少的演練這點我們要很重要啊OK故宮是國內唯一的那個重大基礎設施所以基本上來講的話我們在國土安全署的一個監護之下的話每年都會進行相關跟我們的警察局包括北院跟南院都有一年演練幾次我要這個資料"},{"start":98.87,"end":113.977,"text":"以切到案來講我們去年做過一次那今天我們還會再做一次那13號還會再做一次好所以一年超過三四四次南院北院都是一樣跟警察局共同來合作把一些的資料請給本縣"},{"start":115.018,"end":132.86,"text":"因为这非常非常的一个重要为什么我要这边提你看7分钟内偷走8件宝物然后因为故宫也不是没有让的一个记录去年5月的时候就短暂的停电1分钟之内当然就立即的供电但是我们要回顾到2022年的时候在南院曾经长达10个小时"},{"start":133.661,"end":149.096,"text":"那我们当然知道这是因为第六宫殿回路跳脱但是对不起这整个的过程当中呢共花了十个小时不管是离亲或是恢复闭馆等等之类的我觉得对于一个国家级的博物馆来说院长你满意这样的一个效率吗呃"},{"start":152.031,"end":166.942,"text":"这个部分当然是我们要检讨因为应该我还没有到任了不过这个是回路跳脱的话基本上来讲的话是灯光照明会有不管不管是如何安全院长这个就是完全"},{"start":167.262,"end":193.229,"text":"事情发生之后你的整个的紧急的处置的一个措施你很庆幸的他还不是在展馆所以没有任何的损失万一在一个展馆十个小时我觉得这个部分就是姿势体大所以我们要问的就是万一展场停电的话你们的SOP会是什么基本上来讲的话故宫现在的话都有不断电的系统南北沿区的话可以维持多久"},{"start":195.546,"end":207.721,"text":"这个应该立即回应还有最重要的如果报案的话警力到底在北院多久时间到南院多久时间到这是我们最需要知道对 刚刚北院的话就是讲说六分钟对 六分钟那南院呢"},{"start":209.295,"end":231.353,"text":"五分鐘 南院五分鐘好 那這個部分對我來講都是六分鐘對 都是六分鐘那很顯然這六分鐘裡面他們是羅浮宮是七分鐘之內偷了八件寶物那南北院六分鐘之內應該不至於有這麼嚴重了好 我們記住了 這很重要演練非常的重要這是我本席第一題一定要特別提醒的第二個我想還是要來問一下有關玻璃門的問題"},{"start":232.614,"end":253.249,"text":"因为2022年已经被否决了2025年又再一次的被否决了那之前你们已经告诉我非常的尊重你们也没有那么一定要坚持但是呢现在很显然你们说内部讨论之后你们要再提计划所以院长你们的团队就是坚持不会放弃这个玻璃门的这样一个设计就对了"},{"start":253.729,"end":272.603,"text":"玻璃亭的这样的设计就对了根文报告就是基本上来讲的话采购是一个程序我们要让采购的程序去完成另外一个当初原始设计的一个想法就是说在图面上的最左边的有一个小门红色的小门那是故宫最原始的入口"},{"start":273.163,"end":292.48,"text":"那故宫最原始的入口的话原来的话这样层层叠叠爬上去以后它经过一个拱门我了解我这样只是说既然已经有这么多台北的文化文资会都已经透过不同的考量而且还提出了安全结构的问题结果你们是不是因为合约被绑死"},{"start":293.14,"end":320.541,"text":"所以说你说你不坚持可是现在在两次被否决之后你们又要再提计划所以我们只是很好奇到你的坚持的点到底在什么地方而且我必须要提出来你看交通很多人就特别提到的安全就会被质疑所以它会有这样的一个建议有很多学者专家有很多不同的批判我们后面下面看起来是一个示意图它几乎把故宫的本体说实在的已经遮住了一大半但是最重要的部分我们来看下面"},{"start":322.122,"end":347.811,"text":"这个交通部的观光署还把你们故宫列为观光票选人气的景点而且是一个非常大的这样一个故宫原始的一个模样那你现在把门面改掉要设立一个玻璃亭这就是为什么到目前为止不管安全或是大家认为的外观里面我觉得故宫到底在坚持什么难道是跟团队来说的话故宫没有任何的主导权吗一定要跟着你们当初所称的合约或者是所谓的设计团队里面来走吗"},{"start":348.888,"end":369.065,"text":"我想我跟委员报告过就是李烨是一个诚信因为他当初设计这个入口在四家厂商里面得标得标的就是因为他有所以你们是因为被合约的关系因为这个关系而得标所以你们现在必须要坚持这个部分然后被这么多次的否决难道故宫没有任何的主导权吗"},{"start":369.545,"end":388.695,"text":"我想如果下一次的文資審議的話還要再下一次啊沒有共識的話對 沒有共識的話所以你要等到第三次就對了對 我們會改變期望所以你就把整個工程號這邊等到第三次文資審議後你們再做最後的決定給最後的一搏就對了這是目前你的回應嗎也不是這個樣子因為工程本來就有一個進度好"},{"start":389.215,"end":403.784,"text":"我們就來看看吧不過院長我覺得故宮還是要拿出自己的一個想法既然這麼多的也是文資專家提出這樣的意見你好好還是來參看一下不過目前為止是得到要叫第三次我只是不曉得台北市我們絕對會尊重文資委員"},{"start":404.284,"end":433.443,"text":"我不想听文字委员什么时候再来开会了然后接下来我们还是要问一下就是有关于人数的问题刚刚万委员也特别提到了你显然对于嘉义的这个人次的计算是有一些的想法的你很客气你都尊重了好了就像我们造势人员我们明明算是这样他们要喊几万我们也都尊重了这是我们官方的说法我也尊重了但是呢还是问一句话90周年你的目标是529那你去年说你100周年要350万人次你目前有没有办法达标还差多少"},{"start":433.683,"end":445.532,"text":"公文報告我們南苑前天的話破100萬 恭喜我覺得很好然後那個北苑的話昨天的話200萬所以現在300萬已經達標了你350萬耶350萬同仁的評估你現在只剩下你剩下距離年底還剩下一個多月加油"},{"start":453.077,"end":473.427,"text":"跟委員報告就說實際上有一些數據是沒有加進來譬如說我們推廣教育的活動好了沒關係就像我說的數字我們都尊重好不好一萬都可以喊成五萬了你這個只差五十萬你要喊五百我都可以好不好只是要給我們一個很好的部分可以吧給我們一個數據你不管怎麼加就要加的合理就好確切實實的統計"},{"start":474.428,"end":493.926,"text":"好啦事實統計我知道故宮比較嚴謹所以剛剛萬委員問你的時候你語帶保留啦你就是尊重可是我看你的臉色我就知道故宮不可能只有到這個程度啦不可能大方的講我們故宮開大門走大路我們就是有辦法堂堂國家門面啦因為如果說以故宮目前200萬每次展覽展場的人潮的話基本上來講的話"},{"start":494.787,"end":518.821,"text":"大方的講嘛你幹嘛每次都尊重到時候你新聞出來說故宮比不上嘉義你看你就做我告訴你最後一個我們來看看你們的前院長那個主席再給我一分鐘因為我覺得這必須要澄清前院長提出他們自己的論點自我英雄他們認為他把自己定位為改革性的CEO然後呢認為故宮是保守保守守舊的然後呢應該認為說要有KPI有SOP然後呢他認為應該在定位"},{"start":520.862,"end":543.112,"text":"院長別人講就算了你的前院長這樣來說我們的故宮然後我們看下面講的不專業抗拒改革心理因素不想離開看不起男院喜歡策展喜歡被舞台包圍故宮人員工作量很少然後呢幾乎每個人都準時下班前院長這樣說明你現在院長的故宮你的想法是什麼"},{"start":544.783,"end":566.116,"text":"我也只能講說你也只能尊重嗎我可以尊重對但是但是同仁自己心裡有自己的願長你不能夠只是尊重我真的覺得再三強調再三強調就故宮除了文物重要之外我了解故宮人都是故宮是但是院長如果吳密茶院長還在當院長陣內他沒有辦法改革"},{"start":566.736,"end":592.216,"text":"然后呢离开之后来批评那我就要想说他在当位的时候呢难道后面有更高的势力让他在当院长的时候没有办法改革吗轮到他离开故宫的时候就必须要来大肆批评他当年在位的时候没有办法做到的事情吗有这种事吗你也还是尊重吗你要为故宫说一句话吗故宫难道没有SOP制度吗故宫难道看不起南院吗故宫都是准时准时上下班有什么错然后呢有什么好策展喜欢舞台"},{"start":593.297,"end":606.667,"text":"故宮展的是文物有什麼好策展的這些的問題你難道能夠只是尊重嗎只是他那時候你是他的副院長嗎院長不是這樣啦我不是他的副院長好啦那你覺得對前院長的部分你還是只是尊重嗎"},{"start":609.502,"end":623.762,"text":"個人的看法的話我還是給尊重但是我覺得替故宮的同仁打抱不平好 我也覺得因為我本來要稱讚你的不是只有尊重而已因為你特別講那一句話不是只有文物 而是故宮人"},{"start":624.242,"end":650.813,"text":"常年的故宫人累积的这个故宫人还有包括故宫资深的志工都是故宫真的是完全不能磨灭的一个非常棒的一个产物非常棒的一个文化上面的一个贡献我觉得院长你要给故宫人特别是老工人这样的一个尊重故宫绝对不允许前院长这样的部分当他们发现被这样子的一个有任何不适当的一个谬论我在谬论的时候"},{"start":651.733,"end":669.913,"text":"院長 你不能只有尊重你要挺身為故宮人講話特別是對於這些真的已經奉獻很多的人各位 各位報告我在百年宴慶的聯合開幕的字詞裡面有一半是對故宮人的肯定所以這已經表達故宮現在對故宮人的一個態度好"},{"start":670.433,"end":686.898,"text":"这点我给你肯定啊所以说我说这次我们有志一同没有问题但是对于曾经当过你这个位置的人用这个方法来批评检讨故宫我个人认为你还是有必要以院长之姿真的为故宫再来讲一句话好不好大家共同勉励是谢谢柯知恩委"}]}},{"id":"165137","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c7cf80eb6ef02f5aaf337fb9388085e3bb15cd27f7aef3b912cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:11:27 - 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如果我们故宫文物要继续在捷克展出的话那可能会对这个捷克博物馆不管是纵火啦开枪啦这个窃盗啦等等其实这个恐吓的这个味道非常的重那当然我想这个外交部文化部也都有收到故宫也知道嘛那我们接到这样的一个恐吓邮件之后啊"},{"start":215.734,"end":220.508,"text":"我們故宮做了哪些事情那到目前為止因為也又再過了一個多月的時間那狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":223.326,"end":252.475,"text":"根據委員報告第一個我首先當然就是呼籲就是對於國際文化交流這種不友善的一個威脅行動的話就是說我們可以譴責那這個事情發生之後我們馬上跟捷克透過電話跟視訊聯絡那我們也共同開過視訊會議然後他們那邊一再保證就是所有的文物借產程序跟維安程序的話"},{"start":253.435,"end":270.223,"text":"都是很正常的運作另外的話我們雙方也都通知警方跟檢調單位進行檢調那包括捷克的外交部長的話他們也發表聲明去譴責這樣的一個行為所以目前兩邊的聯繫"},{"start":272.364,"end":292.01,"text":"因为为了我们这个故宫文物要去其实本席其实在去年时候我们有去看那个场地那不管是怎么样去保护我们的文物然后这个展出或者是媒体宣传等等其实我们那时候花了很多的时间在那边双方做沟通但发生了这样的事情我想我们不能有一颗松懈虽然我们谴责过了"},{"start":292.31,"end":312.51,"text":"那在当时我们也警惕了但是我希望就是在我们文物没有回台之前我们时时刻刻我们跟捷克那个地方都要保持一个很密切的联系随时注意状况我想这个这个本席来做一个提醒对这个我们一直在强化那另外的话就是捷克方面的话他们是采集议员入场就是为了强化他的"},{"start":313.03,"end":339.355,"text":"這個我知道院長謝謝接下來我想要再請教一下就是關於我們談過很多次的故宮觀光的人次我們來看一下我們有一個表我們的簡報這個是在1到8月今年全台灣博物館的參訪人次的排名我們看到第一名嘉義市立美術館說實在話本席還沒有去過看到它排名第一參訪人次高達353萬次"},{"start":341.255,"end":352.04,"text":"我其实是想要找一个人去看一看这个院长去过了吗经常去经常去好那经常去这个第一名到第八名您都去过了吗"},{"start":353.648,"end":375.203,"text":"每一个都去过都去过了那我们为什么落在第九名啊我们北部院区啊故宫博物院的观众人数的统计的话有几个基础第一个是卖票那第二个的话就是有公文有文件然后都是有统计第三个的话就是进入闸门所以我们的统计基础的话是非常严谨的"},{"start":375.523,"end":400.496,"text":"非常嚴謹 你的落差也很大好不好你現在參訪人次只有145萬喔所以我覺得要看一下那第二個呢 我們就以地緣來講在嘉義地區你看一看我們的南院啊還是排名在第八這個參訪人次當然我們不能跟第一的來比啊但是我們也是一樣跟嘉義市立美術館比喔就遠遠落後非常多啊同樣地緣就是在嘉義啊所以我想院長有去過喔那我覺得我們要去看一看"},{"start":400.836,"end":428.869,"text":"我們怎麼樣去提升我們每一年每一年都在這裡講要把這個南北院參訪人次把它提高那本席是跟您建議尤其是如果不管南院北院尤其假設這個嘉義美術館這麼多人去那本席當然要找個時間去看一看那是不是南院也有考慮說我們來跟嘉義市政府來合作那甚至於可以跟這些美術館嘉義市裡美術館來做串聯或許可以打造一個文化走廊來提升南院的參觀人次院長覺得可行嗎"},{"start":429.669,"end":453.094,"text":"可行 没有问题但是我还是要跟委员澄清一下就是说每一个馆对于它的观众的统计方式有不同的基础所以这个部分的话就是如果依照嘉义市立美术馆353万的话它就是每一刻里面的因为它很小里面塞满的人走都走不动所以委员可以去看一下就是"},{"start":453.535,"end":461.53,"text":"是不是真实的情况这个样子但是我对于各个管社他们对观众统计的一个方式我都可以尊重"},{"start":462.469,"end":486.97,"text":"好啦 我覺得這個數字我們大家拿來看但是最重要的是實際參訪人次我們北越南越把它衝高最後幾秒鐘我來提醒您一下我們新故宮計畫裡面其實爭議頗大的玻璃入口亭這件事情因為不管我們違反文資法或者是相關的這些委員有意見因為故宮也有提出來說要把新的計畫提出來以後再來討論"},{"start":487.711,"end":514.774,"text":"但现在本席不管是在计划上没有看到在115年我们的总预算当中也没有看到这个入孔亭的工程跟计划相关那是不是我们已经取消了还是现在是什么状况能不能减速一下经过台北市文资的两次审议都没有通过但是它都有一个附带条件就是请修正以后再送所以目前的话我们重新跟那个团队在检讨之中所以还在修正中那这个计划还在吗"},{"start":515.818,"end":540.831,"text":"计划当然还在我想院长其实要去参考一下台北市政府的意见还有我们这些专家学者的意见适不适宜这样做那今年因为预算也没有把它编进去计划也还没有出来我希望再去审慎思考没有必要做的事情就不要做了好吗是我们会审慎检讨好谢谢谢谢万美玲委员质询院长请回座接下来请柯志恩委员质询"}]}},{"id":"165141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c1b2f69ed0c7ebdf5f337fb9388085e3bb15cd27f7aef3b91a7abffe6f3d443025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:42:13 - 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院長早那今天我首先要恭喜因為故宮的參與了大阪市博衛臺灣館的參展那使得它臺灣館成為最受歡迎的一個場館之一那我也特別是故宮的參與當中就是包括的是AI藝廊這邊特別講到的是有這個城市畫卷的一個參展那我自己升到"},{"start":35.6,"end":59.321,"text":"台灣館的時候就發覺到說關於陳承波的這樣子一系列關於台灣城市的畫展這邊透過AI技術是非常好那當然因為大部分去參與的都是日本人我就想說有沒有機會把大阪市博具AI技術的這個城市畫卷的產品到故宮來展示並設立長色展呢有沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":60.926,"end":80.209,"text":"跟委員報告因為當然就是首先講說給那個什麼大阪市府給故宮這個機會那雖然故宮沒有落名可是我們還是很用心不只是用故宮自己的收藏品我們也把台灣前輩畫家的作品一起共同"},{"start":80.689,"end":92.899,"text":"用一個生成式的方式然後去把它融合所以這個展覽結束之後的話第一個我們會回到故宮博物院因為未來的話南院會有一個是到南院啊"},{"start":93.982,"end":113.787,"text":"是放到南院去嗎我說未來南院的話會有一個長色性的展示館那這個會回到北院另外的話那個也會到新竹美術館現在已經在洽談中就是說我們希望把這樣的一個公園樂的技術對把這樣的一個展示然後可以在台灣做更多的推廣跟行為"},{"start":114.667,"end":138.355,"text":"好 謝謝那當然我們下面要討論的就是也是關於羅浮宮的事情不過我就簡短在前面的委員的基礎上面去進行那包括的是幾分鐘啊到警察局啊這些消息都沒有問題但是它因為棄案的發生的原因是在區域裡面唯一監視器的這個面向西方還包括是高價的這樣子的一個產品高價的一個藏品"},{"start":138.855,"end":166.646,"text":"那想要問的是 故宮的話 如果以五件包括是翠玉白菜啦 肉形石啦 毛弓頂啦西山行旅圖啦 跟這個早春圖五項來說的話呢大概估計是多少當然你會說是無價 但是我們希望說如果當初自己也不知道說 包括是這個瑪麗皇后的 這個皇后的這個駕兄 鑽石兄真是多少錢 可是這個地方如果初步估價的話 大概會覺得是可能上到多少錢 可以估計一下嗎"},{"start":169.912,"end":194.674,"text":"呃基本上故宮博物院並沒有進行這樣的一個文物價值的總估價因為因為文物的類向很多那這個價值的話難以研究所以並沒有並沒有做這樣的一個估價但是我想呃當然不是說你去估計之後就會引來的很多的什麼竊賊啊然後未來去進行但是我想你們本身自己應該有些估價吧因為到時候包括像"},{"start":195.855,"end":224.494,"text":"在北京的故宮當中有一些派被投出去但是我希望是這事情不是要發生但是最好在國內自己本身自己有些估價是一個是應該是合理的齁這些部分萬一真的發生到一個被偷竊的情形齁那就是一個大的問題齁那另外一個問題包括的是有沒有做定期的你們現在都有些監視器的人可是現在這個包括故宮羅浮宮也發生說就是他有監視器可是他的方向可能是被人為的就轉向了或什麼之類的這樣子沒有時候定期的再去做一個安全的檢視"},{"start":226.216,"end":244.93,"text":"故宮的監控室24小時的人力在違印所以所有的監視器的話都維持正常的狀態如果說有任何的一個誤動的話我們都會發覺然後另外的話每個月也都會進行那個校正"},{"start":245.543,"end":267.504,"text":"好那另外的剛才您也說到包括是有沒有說定期的一個做這個災防演練等等的因為我們看到是我自己本身在東吳大學就看到說它事實上旁邊有一個加油站那當然它因為故宮它是一個坡地但是我覺得這個包括的是有關於這個火災的這種演練等等的是不是有定期在做演練"},{"start":269.249,"end":289.844,"text":"故宮定期的話就是轄區的消防隊的話他們會來進行督導演練所以每年的話南北院的話基本上至少都有兩次的演練至少都有兩次好那另外包括的是看到之前的吳密茶的院長他有提到說因為現在進行到的是一個全民的那個任性的接軌"},{"start":290.805,"end":313.283,"text":"那關於說他當初有被問到2022年的時候問到說如果發生緊急災變的時候呢有些人現在可能都有戰爭的這種可能性那當初吳密朝院長他是說呢如果要包括打包疏散這些計畫等等的他要跟國家安全單位去了解那目前有針對這部分您接任之後有沒有更後續的發展"},{"start":314.263,"end":336.374,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們是國家基礎安全設施所以我們對文物的撤離的話有制定了6小時、24小時、7天、14天、30天的疏散文物然後列車包裝然後包括所需的動員、車輛但是到底到哪裡去?有沒有真的要把它打包離開?有這個打算嗎?"},{"start":340.496,"end":352.443,"text":"原則上是從展場或是南院北院我們視情況故宮從來都沒有把紋路搬離別的地方的想法因為在台灣還找不到比故宮更安全的庫房"},{"start":353.206,"end":377.297,"text":"好 我們希望也不要發生這樣有戰爭 甚至說如果發生當然不要發生 但是有相關的議題的時候要處理掉那另外包括的是這個故宮的這樣的今年是這個故宮百年包括的是人數這一部分應該也是有一些我們剛才看到的是說故宮現在在南院已經達到了那北院的話還差50萬那我們現在希望說在剩下一個半月能夠達到"},{"start":378.637,"end":404.23,"text":"預期未來的部分因為我們故宮曾經在過去的時候達到有八九百萬的人次的這樣的一個參觀人數那未來你們估計明年的話大概多少人會來因為現在變預算了嘛對不對跟委員報告明年的話當然總參觀人數的話我的設定還是350萬因為今年是百年宴慶的人會多一點那明年350萬的話我希望可以維持這樣的一個能量"},{"start":404.73,"end":410.409,"text":"那因為故宮 基本上來講 有什麼亮點嗎 有什麼預計有什麼展展演是亮點 然後還犧牲到350萬嗎"},{"start":413.467,"end":438.136,"text":"百年宴慶就很多亮點不是 明年的明年的對 明年的的話展覽我們都在規劃之中但是跟委員報告一下就是說故宮的參觀人數的話它是跟境外的入境人數會有小漲因為平均的話過去我的統計平均的話大概100個人的話有10個人在到故宮來看起來的話1%不多可是在全世界的博物館的話"},{"start":439.335,"end":456.773,"text":"沒有人有這樣的一個情況到法國的人不可能十分之一到了武宮到英國的人不可能十分之一到大英博物館所以這故宮來講的話它在統計上來講的話是一個很突出的一個狀態表示故宮在台灣的話受到人家的喜愛的一個程度"},{"start":457.301,"end":477.241,"text":"好 那再詢問一個問題因為已經也出現到這次到捷克去做參展去展覽是非常好那請問一下當初在捷克的展覽當中有沒有製成這種在這邊展覽的商品然後在現場販售然後它的銷售成績是如何這部分是我們一個國際行銷非常重要的一個點"},{"start":479.443,"end":504.016,"text":"捷克跟農展的話我們並沒有特別做那個授權文物的銷售因為這授權文物的銷售的話基本上來講在國外的話是要另外去談一個版權所以並沒有去做這個部分的規劃所以那這個展期有大概幾個月吧三個月三個月那這版權談起來是要耗日礦日廢時還是說它其實效應效應不太好"},{"start":509.043,"end":521.195,"text":"一般來講的話如果有特別規劃文創商品的話都是透過一個商業或是代理機制去處理管對管的交流的話一般來講比較少有去做文創商品的開發"},{"start":522.711,"end":546.822,"text":"喔那這樣實在蠻可惜可是應該有很多人很多人詢問說應該要有這樣的一個產品文創產品的在部分的一個購買的機會吧我們更希望說因為這個展覽讓歐洲的民眾可以了解故宮然後到故宮來這邊提貨我想這是一個更好的一個機會好那所以你們都有留下這樣子的一個回來到台灣的這樣子的一個這種旅遊的計畫的這種資訊到對方去是"},{"start":552.233,"end":570.062,"text":"好 那個未來的話當然我們會評估如果有機會再到國外去的話是不是事先可以去做規劃文創商品的生產對 這個文創商品事實上是需要的好 我們當然也是希望說透過故宮的一個外交讓我們台灣的這個公眾外交能夠達到更多來提升我們的外交處境好 謝謝謝謝劉淑檳 張偉質詢院長請回座"}]}},{"id":"165136","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165136","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c505c89321a09ee8091e8053ceea3e5d7b15cd27f7aef3b9161f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:15:33 - 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謝謝昭偉 我們有請顧部長請顧部長部長早是 陳維勇"},{"start":11.397,"end":38.916,"text":"部長無人載具不但是我們現代這個戰場廣泛被使用的一種器具那也是我們建構不對稱戰力極其重要的一環那我想就無人機的這個籌貨裝備和相關的運用規劃來和部長您做一個討論那先前行政院在這個跨部會的專案會議當中擬定無人機的推動方向以這個產業發展還有國防自主那還有一個民主"},{"start":40.116,"end":68.149,"text":"這個供應鏈三大政策為目標並且以推動我們軍民共規等五大策略來辦理那也有報載提及這個軍民共規就是平戰轉換還有軍民通用那國軍和各部會所使用的這個無人機如果在共同規格下來生產暫時的時候這個動員不用太多時間就可以投入到戰場來使用那我想請問部長"},{"start":68.669,"end":81.081,"text":"以軍民共規的這個規劃來建置我們無人機是國防部目前已經在落實的一個政策目標嗎還是我們已經將這個無人機的這個屏障轉換已經納入在規劃當中"},{"start":82.663,"end":105.183,"text":"現在就是說我們陸續會再籌購這些相關的無人機那無人機的機體的介面上面我們希望是民間的機體的介面跟我們軍方採購的機體介面是一致的那如果這樣的機體介面有一個共規的話那麼日後再做這個平站轉換的時候應該就是會比較"},{"start":108.786,"end":130.079,"text":"就比較沒有問題也就是說它本來是民用的嘛那要把它轉回軍用因為有一個共規的集體介面那我們要裝上相關的火工的配件那我們就可以馬上來轉成作為軍用具有攻擊能力就可以直接轉換"},{"start":131.98,"end":144.218,"text":"那在國防部這次的報告當中我們也有提到依照國防法第22條結合民間的力量除了籌貨武器之外也要提升自主的修復"},{"start":145.69,"end":164.595,"text":"維護的這個能量來落實我們國防自主的一個政策那針對這個無人機後勤維保的這個規劃在今天的這個報告當中似乎是沒有這個提及是不是請部長說明我們接下來購入的這個大量無人機對於自主維保的這個能量跟人力是否充足"},{"start":167.853,"end":188.02,"text":"我想最主要的關鍵當然就是說因為我們籌購的方向還是有多元嘛因為我們有私製的那有商購的然後也有這個商購也有分成對國內商購或者是對國外商購那我想"},{"start":189.542,"end":210.805,"text":"主要的政策目標應該當然都是說我們希望能夠強化我們在地的生產能量依照烏克蘭的經驗告訴我們你要能夠落地生產那麼在維持這個戰時的韌性應該就能夠確保所以這個後勤的維保的這個部分當然也是我們關注的重點"},{"start":212.553,"end":224.526,"text":"當然要看如果是屬於我們在國內自製的那這個維保的部分就會能量會比較沒有問題而且可以再生產的能力也高那"},{"start":225.39,"end":246.571,"text":"無人機要看他一到五類看不同的狀況有一些是屬於消耗品有一些是屬於像四五類這種那這個是非常高價的那我們也設法要在這裡建立一定的維修的能量那一二三類的話在某種程度上面如同一個消耗品如果他"},{"start":247.253,"end":273.572,"text":"尤其是攻擊型他可能打出去他就沒有再回來是這樣子所以我們會有不同的一個您剛問的這個問題其實要看他的這個用途類別然後他籌購的來源然後我想會以這個維持一個在暫時具有一個韌性作為一個最高的政策指導目標好 細分用途再來做區分對好"},{"start":274.893,"end":303.379,"text":"那從這次的書面報告當中也看到我們對於無人機訓練體系的建構以及我們所需的相關資源也陸續到位尤其是陸海空軍都分別建置了專責的訓練機構那有關各軍種所建置的無人機專責的訓練機構在報告當中我們所提及的集中資源是什麼樣的資源那又有哪些部隊需要實施高階訓練是不是就能夠公開的部分"},{"start":304.099,"end":305.587,"text":"部長可以簡單的做說明"},{"start":307.785,"end":336.592,"text":"委員好 我是訓制次長跟委員報告有關這個集中資源的部分就是要運用我們這個軍種的專責機構它包括它的專業教官還有它的場地 還有設備還有我們整個流路我們必須訓練形成重點那我們希望把這些資源用在後續的所謂高階的訓練就是攻擊型還有中大型的艱增無人機因為它的訓練上必須要去系統的整合或多人的操作以上的說明"},{"start":338.323,"end":346.067,"text":"我們負責防衛首都的憲兵也有購置一批無人機目前還沒有自己的訓練機構嗎"},{"start":351.723,"end":374.67,"text":"委員好 我是憲民參謀長向您報告我們相關的專責訓練機構規劃首先報告我們總人的培訓其實本部從去年到今年為止我們送訓的民航局的相關班隊以及入軍有軍的無人機訓練中心和本部自訓目前已培養了282員具有簽證合格的操作手"},{"start":375.43,"end":398.951,"text":"那這操作所裡面還有11員侍奉已經核定的高階的師製教官那我們也預劃在115年在我們本部的憲兵訓練中心來開設個常態的無人機班隊預劃每年來培養250員的操作所那這些操作所也會作為我們各部隊來擴訓的基礎手能 以上報告"},{"start":401.648,"end":420.577,"text":"還有在今年3月份的時候也曾經詢問過部長這個無人機操作會不會納入教召部長您當時也回應說應該要納入因為這個14天的教召時間比較充裕也符合人人都能夠操作無人機的一個目標"},{"start":423.482,"end":438.642,"text":"8月份青年日報的報導有看到已經有教招的招援實施操作了多軸的無人機那針對目前我們無人機納入教招的課程之後訓練的目標以及初步的成效"},{"start":439.142,"end":463.669,"text":"是不是請部長簡要說明一下委員好謝謝委員的指導有關於這個教招的部分訓練的部分我區分兩個部分向委員來做報告第一個部分就是我們的後備部隊上一次跟委員報告了我們會接裝850架左右的無人機我們在今年10月份的時候"},{"start":464.79,"end":478.744,"text":"10月16號我們第一梯次450架我們已經接裝了然後同步我們在8月份在接裝之前我們就已經參加了偽商的廠商的相關的課程"},{"start":479.985,"end":490.694,"text":"這個課程區分為基本跟高級兩個課程然後基本的部分總共19梯次目前我們已經完訓了有5梯次227元那11月3號開始我們會開始進入高級的這個訓練的梯次"},{"start":500.441,"end":519.533,"text":"那第二部分我要向委員報告因為後備部隊教召的部分我們在後備部隊14天的課程裡面我們有檢討出來然後從10月1號開始教召部隊就已經有兩個小時的無人機操作的課程了那我們會持續再做 謝謝委員好"},{"start":521.451,"end":538.024,"text":"那另外這個中共的這個無人機對我外離島這個洗腦已經這個非常頻繁在上個月剛發布的這個114年國防報告書當中針對這個中共無人機洗腦外離島的行為軍方目前訂定了四個步驟"},{"start":539.546,"end":554.776,"text":"印儲的流程會動用干擾槍 步槍 機槍以及軟硬殺的方式來擊落無人機那我們現行應對無人機洗腦的印儲要領為什麼還沒有納入反無人機系統的運用"},{"start":557.037,"end":580.226,"text":"我想國軍已經開始建立我們本島還有外島的一個是無人機防禦就是說本島跟外島的系統有12套這個是已經建制的那後續還會再依序來建制我們本島跟外島的無人機的反制系統"},{"start":581.997,"end":598.13,"text":"就目前還沒有建置完成嗎還在進行當中就是說相關的這個我想安裝的地點可能不太適宜公布但是基本上來講就是說我們現行的在"},{"start":601.142,"end":629.23,"text":"UDS的部分大概是有10套吧9套 沒關係 部長可公開說明的說明對 我想私下再跟委員做一些說明然後陸續還會再就一些適當的地點我們來進行安裝好 那就我們所了解到的我們陸軍所採購26套固定式的這個無人機反制系統其中第一梯13套應該在今年10月上旬已經交裝了並且在這個驗收合格之後"},{"start":629.75,"end":647.319,"text":"就可以接續部署而第二梯的這個部分則是在明年交裝那我想請教部長國防部所採購的無人機反制系統在交裝跟部署的這個期程是否都很順利那這個陸軍第一梯13套的這個裝備是否已經都部署完成"},{"start":650.259,"end":671.411,"text":"委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一梯的確在10月份已經依照契約和節點已經完成了第一梯13套的膠裝那我們要對它實施一個是目視驗收還有一個性能的驗收那性能的驗收也在10月底完成那目前我們預計在明天會出具整個的驗測報告"},{"start":672.552,"end":691.601,"text":"那會是驗測報告的結果來決定後續的部署或是其他的這個建案的程序 以上報告好 那在今年九月的這個台北航太國防展當中也有許多的廠商秀出自家的這個研發成果其中不乏來自國外的廠商"},{"start":692.341,"end":709.976,"text":"的這個反無人機系統的展示那國內廠商也是百家爭鳴包括中科院自己所研發的相關系統據說也相當有程度的一個進展那對於這個反制無人機的系統採購也是會以我們這個國內自製的這個系統為主要優先採購的目標嗎"},{"start":712.038,"end":733.653,"text":"我們會有不同的籌貨管道會有不同的籌貨管道就是國內外的現貨市場上面合乎我們這個作戰需求的我們都會納入評估符合我們需求的不限國內外不限國內也就國內外的現貨市場上面我們認為可以儘速籌購的我們都會納為我們的"},{"start":735.514,"end":755.572,"text":"選購了一個標的好那另外可吸式無人機的這個反制系統根據報載公開越南的相關資料顯示國防部想要這個被動偵測範圍4公里那可反制範圍要2公里以上的設備還需要能夠放置在小型這個車輛載運也要滿足車輛還有船艦等各式的這個載具運用那針對這個可吸式的這個反制"},{"start":763.083,"end":782.983,"text":"可惜式的這個無人機反制系統我們國防部籌獲的這個規劃以及建制的這個需求跟運用手段這個是不是請部長還是參謀長簡要說明一下我想現在我們進行這個還在進行一個建案的作業我想後續就如果有可以"},{"start":783.624,"end":801.722,"text":"可以公開的時候我們再來公開因為現在是依照相關的節點來管制執行所以還沒有最後完成好 那後續我們這個無人載具的相關籌貨啦齁還有人才培訓都需要加緊腳步啦齁那這部分就請我們國防部還有我們相關的這個"},{"start":804.576,"end":828.164,"text":"這個陸海空軍我們對於我們所作戰需求我們一定要做好最周全的一個這個這個準備讓我們這個所有的軍官在我們武器使用還有相關設備使用上能夠無虞我相信這才是保護我們國家最好的一個方式是 我們會來就審慎的規劃好 謝謝部長 謝謝常務長 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謝謝主席 有請蕭院長請蕭院長"},{"start":15.542,"end":36.239,"text":"林委員早小院長辛苦了我想大家對於最近有關博物館方面最大的新聞全世界最大的新聞就是在上個月10月19號的時候現在不是只有我關心我想剛剛柯市任委員甚至萬美林委員都很關心如果巴黎羅浮宮在短短8分鐘之內就被盜走價值高達31億新台幣的皇室珠寶"},{"start":39.982,"end":57.134,"text":"再加上說這幾年來好像我記得沒錯的話大英博物館也爆發出內部資深策展人長達十年的系統性的竊盜醜聞這樣的事情發生當然我們一向都以為說這種事情只會在好萊塢的電影上發生"},{"start":57.754,"end":79.711,"text":"但是既然发生了我们就要去了解说这件事情不能用事后补偿或者受法律保障来说辞来去跟我们全国民来去说明这样是无法交代的那我们也要基于一个态度就是见不鲜思自省我们必须用全球顶级博物馆刚发生过最坏的状况来严格检视故宫"},{"start":80.231,"end":106.219,"text":"那故宮最近這幾年積極推動國寶出境甚至將本院的證管之寶像是翠玉白菜送往捷克展出就算說我們有簽署所謂司法免扣押的條款我們有投保巨額保險之類的但是如果連羅浮宮這全世界當然故宮跟羅浮宮是一樣等級的博物館但是連羅浮宮都會有這個在嚴密的保安都會被專業的竊責一個攻破"},{"start":107.839,"end":122.521,"text":"那我们这个国宝呢它的历史跟文化价值是独一无二的这是无法用金钱赔偿的所以我想请问院长您要怎么样担保当翠玉白菜或肉形石在海外的时候不会变成下一个这种惊天泄暗的主角呢"},{"start":124.769,"end":140.866,"text":"跟委員報告就是國際文化交流有它的一定的一個慣例當然就是說故宮的文物出去那國外的文物其實也會到故宮來那整個國際屆展上面的一個標準作業程序"},{"start":141.627,"end":169.855,"text":"包括司法免扣押包括整個路程的介護然後包括管社展出空間的安全管理我想這是一個行之有年的一個一個制度我們當然因為這樣的事情發生的話我們會加強故宮自行的檢討然後包括管社安全漏洞的一個檢視那另外的話我們在11月17號也會進行南北縣的一個安全維護的演練那"},{"start":171.496,"end":194.157,"text":"故宮因為是國內的唯一的一個國土安全的一個單位所以這個部分如果安全防護的話我們是在國土安全署他們的一個相關的監督之下我們會做到最安全的防護院長我只是提議就是說因為不管是翠玉白菜 肉方石這些都是中華文化很"},{"start":194.958,"end":223.29,"text":"珍贵的文化遗产那能不能有机会就是说我们这种镇管之宝的核心文物尽量不要以出管为原则呢有没有这个机会我想跟委员报告一下故宫的话文物有分一些等级譬如说像国宝重要古物的话出国的话当然我们会有一个最严谨的那另外现长文物的话基本上来讲是不出国那以这一次的情况的话当然我们未来对故宫文物出国"},{"start":224.891,"end":238.849,"text":"會有更嚴謹的一個考量跟評估是不是會翠玉白菜我也講過翠玉白菜是不是有機會再出國的話我自己也沒有辦法保證所以這個部分的話我想我們會用更嚴謹的態度來評估"},{"start":240.831,"end":258.66,"text":"好 那我們先來談另外一個問題就是我們剛剛講到故宮南院嘛那其實我們也我從資料上面看到其實某個程度我會覺得非常的可惜我也不知道應該要是要向誰作出檢討但是很明顯的故宮南院有點空洞化有一個空洞化的狀況"},{"start":259.5,"end":278.599,"text":"所謂故宮南院空洞化就是說故宮南院遊客入園但是沒有入館那這凸顯的說我們南院其實過度依賴所謂水舞 無人機一般這種一次性的活動而非充實展覽的本身我這邊手上拿到的資料是到最新到今年今年8月的統計資料"},{"start":279.64,"end":304.769,"text":"在南莞总参观数将近78万人次中间真正进入展厅的只有不到39万人次也就是说跟委员讲这个数据不对因为事实上到前天是100万对 那有多少人进入展厅延期的人数通通不记录所以这个数字的话是有点落差因为延期通通不记录"},{"start":305.909,"end":322.808,"text":"我是认为说如果说我们南院假设说我们园区的人数不记录的话那为什么我们上面查到的资料会是这样子呢对不算进去我们的那个参观入馆的人数因为我们现在统计的是入馆的人数"},{"start":324.147,"end":338.913,"text":"那因為南苑的話當初建院的時候南苑的評估的話就一年的話平均大概一估70萬事實上現在平均百萬已經超越當初南苑建制的一個疫情標準"},{"start":340.013,"end":361.829,"text":"所以說你認為南苑現在是OK的嗎你真的認為南苑現在是做得夠好的確可以跟故宮本身 本館一樣說變成一個國際吸引的點嗎南苑的知名度當然比較低可是南苑現在的展示跟教育推廣能量基本上來講的話一直在提升尤其是譬如說像這一次的江戶湖四之美的話"},{"start":363.41,"end":381.768,"text":"受到很大的一個讚許當然大美不言也是可是大美不言的話是跟北苑南苑一起合辦的那江湖福祉之美的話我想那個人潮的話大家都可以看得到好 針對其實還有另外一塊就是我們當我們在看到因為本席有在看我們115年的預算書"},{"start":384.511,"end":405.647,"text":"那當我們看到115年預算書的時候我們這邊看到有很多像是不管是AI智慧整合啦跨域整合永續發展之類這些很不錯的詞句但是我們當我們把交叉比對113年的決算書跟114年最新的因應數據的時候其實我會個人其實覺得蠻危險的危險的地方是在於說我們知道說我們所謂的預算"},{"start":407.248,"end":427.217,"text":"是建立於所謂誠信跟效能上面我們要看到故宮提出來預算我們希望故宮能夠執行我們期待故宮能夠照著我們提供預算書去針對這每一件事情做出長足的進展但是我們其實某個程度上目前有一個系統性的失靈危機就是管理上面"},{"start":428.197,"end":445.926,"text":"這關於上面我們故宮的核心是文物跟數位文物安全跟數位資產但是老實說如果在115年裡面提出一個長達5年經費1.6億的打造AI智慧博物館但是我們這故宮也發現說就是有高階的國寶圖檔外流"},{"start":448.027,"end":462.383,"text":"那監察院也提出糾正了那調查結果也證實這不是什麼高明的駭客攻擊是承辦人員不該將高階土檔上傳是對外可提供的伺服劑那最後面故宮對於這件重大文資事故"},{"start":463.064,"end":483.599,"text":"最終的成組是申借然後這個人離職請問一下如果連最基本的資安紀律都無法落實的話那立法院應該核准這1.6億讓您去建置一個更龐大的數量資料庫嗎您提出了什麼具體性的系統性改革保證這些AI ready的資料不會再被不當上傳呢"},{"start":484.479,"end":510.423,"text":"跟委員簡單講就是我們把那個管理者跟使用分離就是說一般來講的話未來的話外界的話是沒有辦法進入我們的資料庫那它可以讀取到的只是我們open data就是600萬畫素跟100萬畫素那高階的圖檔的話我們就是把它分流就是那個管理分流我剛剛講的是說其實是內部人員操作上"},{"start":510.963,"end":534.624,"text":"內部的人員我剛講內部人員的話那怎麼樣去避免未來這樣的事情呢內部人員的話基本上來講的話他只能在內部工作區工作他不能把資料PO到外部的網站外部的網站的話是另外的管理所以把兩邊的管理人分流就是好像出納跟會計一樣會計不能管錢然後出納管錢不管帳就是把它做分流"},{"start":535.495,"end":562.424,"text":"老實說我們相信故宮的專業我們也知道故宮很寶貴但是如果像這樣的算低階的牧師這種低階的牧師出來的時候同仁有這樣的叔叔是沒有錯的的確是事實而且我們也承接了但至於所謂的外流的資料裡面我們兩年的檢視實際上這些高階的土島沒有外流現在在淘寶 過去在淘寶的話都是我們open data的資料"},{"start":563.184,"end":576.712,"text":"其實我們已經41萬筆Open Data了所以外面流通的都是那些資料並沒有高階圖檔好 那我希望現在剛剛院長講的有關出納跟會計這邊這樣的未來的資訊分流那個邏輯邏輯希望能夠更明確希望像這件事情可以避免發生是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝林佩祥委員質詢院長請回座"},{"start":590.526,"end":592.765,"text":"接下来请刘淑斌召委咨询"}]}},{"id":"165134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c8d062060657892079a009a06fea83c6bb15cd27f7aef3b91dc3fb96d4c95e3195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:03:47 - 09:05:46","影片長度":"00:01:59","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員萬美玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十一）、（十二）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-06","start_time":"2025-11-06T09:03:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T09:05:46+08:00","duration":119,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.1953437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.07846875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":118.88159375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.712,"end":13.814,"text":"謝謝主席 在場的各位委員還有媒體朋友 大家早安"},{"start":14.821,"end":33.235,"text":"那我想自從軍公教人員年金改革之後新進的公教人員呈現血膨式的減少那114學年度甚至發生史上最嚴重的失職荒全國中小學失職缺額1萬人那就是因為我們年金改革在導致在此的公教"},{"start":34.116,"end":58.693,"text":"公教人員不敢提早退休那使得公教人員的整體薪資福利遠遠低於業界年輕人也擔心未來公教福利可能又會再砍所以不願意再投身在教育界的服務我想蔡政府當年推動年改過於粗糙把公教的年資補償金一刀切而且他的所得替代率每年往下調1.5%反而讓公教人員越活越痛苦"},{"start":60.334,"end":86.12,"text":"這一群退休的公教人員在民國50、60、70年代政府在沒有辦法給高薪又想要招攬人才擔任公教人員的情況之下承諾給予公教人員優惠的退休金所以才願意留在學校來教導學生為了國家來培育人才但是像執政黨為了選票拿軍公教開刀砍了他們的退休金也抹殺了這一群退休公教人員過去的辛苦"},{"start":87.06,"end":109.915,"text":"那為了保障既有公立學校教職退休生活同時也吸引更多青年人才投入我們的教師工作本席提出公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條第38條及第67條修正草案是民國114年之後各年度所的替代率不再逐年降低保障公立"},{"start":110.535,"end":117.302,"text":"學校退休基本的生活需求那以上也希望我們各位所有的委員能夠一起來解決這個問題來支持這個提案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17013","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db130bdd2cddfd43855e5a7d9476abbdb383051bafb051454b4832f54798e0df2d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查： \n（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員許宇甄等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公司法第二百二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鄭正鈐等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「公司法第二百三十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員何欣純等16人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「公司法第一百六十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）本院委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「公司法第三百八十七條之一及第四百四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（一）\t本院委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查：\n（一）本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n以上全案於11月5日(星期三)進行合併詢答，11月6日(星期四)處理。【11月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-06T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T10:41:00+08:00","duration":7815,"影片長度":"02:10:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 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第一項同線型條文增訂第二項前項將成定名分派員工酬勞之當年獲利狀況之定額或比率之調整不得低於最低工資法第9條消費者物價指數年增率擬定調整幅度"},{"start":2103.3,"end":2123.274,"text":"現行條文第二項至第五項一列為第三項至第六項其中第三項莫具修正為不適用第一項之規定第四項所具修正為前三項員工酬勞以股票或現金為之其餘同現行條文委員楊瓊英等17人提案第387條除第三項修正為前二項之申請"},{"start":2124.212,"end":2142.626,"text":"得委任代理人以會計師律師記帳室為限其餘同線型條文委員徐宇珍等17人委員謝一鳳等16人委員張家俊等18人分別提案第387條同委員楊瓊英等人提案委員林黛樺等16人提案第387條"},{"start":2144.688,"end":2165.015,"text":"除第三項修正為前二項之申請得委任代理人代理人以會計師律師記帳室記帳及報稅代理人為限但依法應簽證或另有其他法令規定應由會計師律師辦理之相關事項依其規定辦理其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2166.363,"end":2189.118,"text":"委員何欣淳等16人提案第387條除第三項修正為前二項之申請得委任代理人代理人以會計師律師為限但公司登記之資本額未達新台幣3000萬元者前二項之申請代理人除會計師律師外亦得委任記帳是記帳及報稅代理人其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2190.253,"end":2202.789,"text":"委員劉許廷等17人提案第387條之一公司於申請設立登記前應參加中央主管機關或其委託非營利組織辦理之勞動權益講習並於申請設立登記時檢附已參加講習之證明文件"},{"start":2208.922,"end":2236.117,"text":"前項講習之對象內容實施方式受委託辦理之資格條件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央勞動主管機關定之委員劉許廷等17人提案第449條除後段文字修正為及缺年缺月缺日修正公佈之條文自公佈後6個月施行外自公佈日施行其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2237.836,"end":2264.513,"text":"修正動議第一案公司法第235條之一增訂第二項前項之定額或比率及其他應遵循之事項由中央主管機關會商勞動部定之現行條文第二項至第五項一列為第三項至第六項其中第四項首具修正為第一項及前項員工酬勞以股票或現金為之"},{"start":2265.533,"end":2292.124,"text":"第六項中 項次修正為張誠得定名依第一項至第四項其餘同現行條文提案人張啟凱 鄭天才 鄭振前附帶決議第一案案由本次修正公司法第235條之一系針對基層員工之家新條款有鑒於114年10月30日行政院院會通過跨國勞動力精進方案提出規劃作法"},{"start":2294.565,"end":2324.065,"text":"制造业旅宿及商港码头业本国劳工加薪新台币2000元时可增加一位移工名额前开政策机制需有完备之法制作业并在其内容规定减和机制方可落实又此种做法法令全责执行机制由何种行政机关负责是否会涉及公司治理加薪条款相关法令尚有待厘清"},{"start":2324.585,"end":2347.407,"text":"原請勞動部與經濟部其他有需要之目的事業主管機關等聯繫協調完備必要之法製作業及訂定法令於一個月內向立法院經濟委員會提出書面報告提案人張祺凱 鄭天才 鄭振前委員牛許廷等16人提案商業登記法第九條之一"},{"start":2348.863,"end":2374.45,"text":"商业于申请设立登记前应参加中央主管机关或其委托非盈利组织办理之劳动权益讲习并于申请设立登记时减负已参加讲习之证明文件前项讲习之对象内容实施方式受委托办理之资格条件及其他应遵循事项之办法由中央主管机关会同中劳动主管机关定之"},{"start":2375.15,"end":2398.13,"text":"第37條除後段修正為及全年全月全日修正公布之條文自公布後6個月施行外自公布日施行其餘同線型條文能源管理法部分條文修正草案委員蔡祺昌等19人提案第二條第一項序文如左修正為如下第六款修正文再申能源"},{"start":2399.434,"end":2426.286,"text":"第七款热能第八款其他金庄主管机关指定为能源者增订第二项前项能源有其法律特别规定者从其规定其余同现行条文委员钟嘉斌等二十人提案第二条第一项序文如左修正为如下第一款修正为一再生能源现行条文第一款至第五款一列为第二款至第六款第七款热能第八"},{"start":2426.866,"end":2437.522,"text":"第八款其他經中央主管機關指定為能源者增訂第二項前項能源有能源相關法律特別規定者從其規定其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2438.257,"end":2462.004,"text":"委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第三條之一中央主管機關應協助公務機關公有營業機關公有事業機關訂定節約能源目標及執行計畫委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第五條第二項序文如左修正為如下其餘同線型條文委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第五條同委員蔡奇昌等提案"},{"start":2463.322,"end":2484.421,"text":"委員蔡其昌等19人提案第6條除第3項修正為前項金鐘主管機關指定之能源產品其輸入輸出生產銷售業務之經營許可申請變更撤銷與廢止程序設施設置條件及其他經營管理"},{"start":2485.026,"end":2505.071,"text":"事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之增訂第四項前項辦法所定之事項於必要時中央主管機關得委由直轄市縣市主管機關辦理之其餘同縣刑條文委員鍾嘉斌等二十人提案第六條第一項至第三項同委員蔡祺昌等人提案"},{"start":2505.791,"end":2524.284,"text":"增訂第四項中央主管機關於必要時得將前項辦法鎖定之事項委辦直轄市縣市主管機關辦理委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第六條之一能源供應事業應配合主管機關強化能源管理及合理有效使用需要"},{"start":2525.265,"end":2544.191,"text":"提供能源用戶之能源使用資料前項能源供應事業能源用戶範圍使用能源資料之指定由中央主管機關公告之主管機關取得第一項資料應依相關法令維護個人資料或營業秘密之安全委員"},{"start":2544.833,"end":2566.001,"text":"蔡奇昌等19人提案第6條之一能源供應事業應配合主管機關為強化能源管理促進能源合理及有效使用之需要公開能源銷售統計資料其保有處理及利用應遵循個人資料保護法及相關法令之規定前項能源銷售統計資料之"},{"start":2567.701,"end":2596.942,"text":"总内范围期间公开方式及公开时间由中央主管机关公告之委员钟嘉斌等20人提案第6条之一同委员蔡奇昌等人提案委员赖瑞龙等17人提案第7条第一项序文中左列修正为下列其余同现行条文委员杨琼英等21人提案第7条第一项序文中左列修正为下列第二款修正为设置能源储存能设备"},{"start":2597.972,"end":2614.319,"text":"其餘同線型條文委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第7條第一項序文中左列修正為下列並刪除線型條文第二項其餘同線型條文委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第7條同委員賴瑞榮等人提案"},{"start":2615.049,"end":2633.721,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第7條之一能源供應事業以火力發電者應依照中央主管機關之規定申報機組資料及排放報告前項運轉應包含機組位置、類型、發電量、熱效率、熱耗率"},{"start":2634.682,"end":2660.672,"text":"燃料消耗率容量因素燃料種類燃料產地及燃料品質檢測報告第一項之排放報告應包含粒狀污染物硫氧化物氮氧化物委員蔡祺昌等19人提案第9條除墨具修正為報經中央主管機關核定並執行之其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2661.618,"end":2683.44,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第9條同委員蔡奇昌等人提案委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第10條之一能源用戶裝設氣電共生設備及能源供應業務達中央主管機關規定之數量者因依第7條之一規定申報機組資料及排放報告委員"},{"start":2684.099,"end":2700.8,"text":"蔡奇昌等19人提案第18條刪除委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第18條刪除委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第19條之一除第一項修正為主管機關得派員或委託經中央主管機關認可之專業機構或技師"},{"start":2703.163,"end":2728.714,"text":"對於第8條第9條第11條第12條第14條及第15條所定之能源用戶使用能源設備器具或車輛之製造進口廠商或販賣業者實施檢查或命其提供有關資料能源用戶製造進口廠商及販賣業者不得規避妨礙拒絕或提供不實資料其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2730.339,"end":2751.507,"text":"委員中嘉賓等二十人提案第十九條之一除第一項手續修正為中央主管機關得派員或委託經中央主管機關認可之專業機構或技師莫具修正為能源用戶製造進口廠商及販賣業者不得規避妨礙拒絕或提供不實資料其餘通現行條文"},{"start":2752.347,"end":2776.612,"text":"委員邱毅英等17人提案第19條之二任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應國家能源基礎設施之不實謠言或假訊息委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第20條能源供應事業違反中央主管機關1第6條第一項所為之規定者主管機關因令其限期改善藉其未改善者"},{"start":2777.412,"end":2801.753,"text":"處新臺幣15萬元以上75萬元以下罰還並再令限其改善藉其能為改善者按次處罰並得停止其營業或勒令歇業經主管機關再次處罰能為改善者對其負責人處一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科新臺幣30萬元以下罰金委員中嘉賓等20人提案第20條"},{"start":2803.427,"end":2830.116,"text":"能源供應事業違反中央主管機關一第六條第一項所為之規定者主管機關因令其限期改善借其不改善者處新台幣15萬元以上75萬元以下罰還並再令其限期改善借其能不改善者除按次加倍處罰外並得停止其營業或熱令歇業經主管機關再次加倍處罰能不改善者"},{"start":2830.795,"end":2851.157,"text":"對其負責人處一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科新台幣30萬元以下罰金委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第20條之一第一項莫具修正為處新台幣100萬元以上500萬元以下罰還增訂第二項至第四項前項情勢至身公共危險者"},{"start":2852.409,"end":2867.167,"text":"处三年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或病科新台币一百万元以上五百万元以下罚金法人之负责人代理人受雇人或其他从业人员因执行职务犯前项之罪者"},{"start":2867.868,"end":2888.373,"text":"除处罚该行为人外对该法人亦可以前向罚金经营中央主管机关指定之能源产品之输入输出生产销售业务违反第六条第三项锁定办法中有关检查品质公共意外责任线资料申报及保存事故通报平面配置变更"},{"start":2889.589,"end":2916.009,"text":"暫停及終止營業申請事項及其他應遵行事項之規定者處新台幣15萬元以上75萬元以下罰還並得令其限期改善藉其未改善者得按次處罰情節重大者並得令其停止營業三個月廢止經營許可或勒令歇業其餘同現行條文委員中嘉賓等20人提案第20條之一"},{"start":2917.25,"end":2938.48,"text":"除第二项修正为有前项情事自身公共危险者处三年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或病科新台币六十万元以上三百万元以下罚金第三项末具修正为对该法人亦可以前项之罚金第四项末段修正为并令其限期改善借其不改善者"},{"start":2939.022,"end":2967.877,"text":"案次加倍處罰情節重大者並得令其停止營業三個月廢止經營許可或勒令歇業其餘同委員蔡其昌等人提案委員中嘉賓等二十人提案第20條之二衛一第五條之一第一項第一款及第二項規定與其縣內繳交基金者處新台幣15萬元以上75萬元以下罰還並令其限期繳納藉其未繳納案次加倍處罰"},{"start":2970.134,"end":2997.005,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第21條第一項序文及第一款修正為有下列情形之一者主管機關應通知限期改善 借其不改善者處心台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還並於機關網站公布該廠商業者能源用戶之名稱即在限期改善借其能不改善者按次加倍處罰依衛議第6條之一第一項規定提供能源用戶之"},{"start":2997.965,"end":3014.379,"text":"能源使用资料现行条文第一款一列为第二款第三款修正为位于第七条之一及第十条之一规定申报机组资料排放报告或申报不实现行条文第二款至第五款一列为第四款至第七款"},{"start":3015.063,"end":3044.412,"text":"委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第21條第一項序文及第一款修正為有下列情形之一者主管機關應令其限期改善藉其未改善者處新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還並在令限期改善藉其人未改善者按次處罰依為依第6條之一第一項規定公開能源銷售統計資料或公開不實資料現行條文第一款一列為第二款"},{"start":3044.972,"end":3056,"text":"第三款修正為違反第八條第一項關於能源使用及效率之規定現行條文第二款至第五款 以列為第四款至第七款"},{"start":3057.287,"end":3078.46,"text":"增訂第二項有前項第六款第七款鎖定情形之一者除一規定處罰外並得公布該廠商業者之名稱及違法適用委員鍾嘉斌等二十人提案第二十一條除第一項序文修正為有下列情形之一者主管機關應令其限期改善借其不改善者處新台幣十萬元以上"},{"start":3079.632,"end":3097.307,"text":"50萬元以下罰款並在令期限期改善 借期能不改善者按次加倍處罰 增訂第二項有前項鎖定情形者除依規定處罰外 並應公佈該廠商業者之名稱及違法事由其餘同委員蔡啟昌等提案"},{"start":3098.601,"end":3122.414,"text":"委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第22條能源供應事業違反第7條第一項第二款第三款未設置能源儲存設備或儲存安全存量者主管機關應令其限期改善藉其未改善者處新台幣15萬元以上75萬元以下罰款並在令限期改善藉其能未改善者得按次處罰"},{"start":3123.915,"end":3148.509,"text":"委員中嘉賓等20人提案第22條能源供應事業違反第7條第一項第二款或第三款規定為設置能源儲存設備或儲存安全存量者主管機關因另期限期改善借其不改善者處新台幣15萬元以上75萬元下罰還並在另期限期改善借其人不改善者按次加倍處罰"},{"start":3149.642,"end":3161.037,"text":"委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第23條刪除委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第23條刪除委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第24條第一項序文修正為"},{"start":3162.54,"end":3188.096,"text":"有下列情形之一者主管機關因令其限期改善藉其不改善者處新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰款並再令限期改善藉其人不改善者按次處罰第1款至第4款及第6款同現行條文第5款修正為違反第19條之一第一項規定規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關所為之檢查要求"},{"start":3188.596,"end":3211.634,"text":"提供资料之命令或提供不实资料增订第二项有前项第三款锁定情形者除一规定处罚外并得公布该厂商业者之名称及违法事由委员中嘉宾等20人提案第24条除第一项除序文修正为有下列情形之一者主管机关应通知限其办理"},{"start":3212.294,"end":3236.096,"text":"借其不改善者处新台币10万元以上50万元以下罚还并在另期限期改善借其能不改善者按次加倍处罚第二款于第一项规定后加逗号其余同委员蔡奇昌等提案增订第二项有前项锁定情形者处以规定处罚外并应公布该厂商业者之名称及违法事由"},{"start":3237.458,"end":3266.809,"text":"委員邱盈穎等17人提案第27條之一違反第19條之二規定危害社會秩序引發公眾恐慌者處心台幣10萬元以上60萬元以下罰還委員蔡奇昌等19人提案第29條本法施行細則由中主管機關定之委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案第29條同委員蔡奇昌等提案修正動議第一案能源管理法"},{"start":3267.728,"end":3279.185,"text":"第二條本法所稱能源如下1再生能源2天然氣3石油及其產品4煤炭及其產品5核子燃料6電能7熱能"},{"start":3281.688,"end":3302.947,"text":"其他經中央主管機關指定為能源者前項能源有能源相關法律特別規定者從其規定第六條之一第一項及第二項同委員蔡祺昌等提案增訂第三項中央主管機關應設立能源資訊公開平台能源政策推動過程中所設置各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3303.867,"end":3324.072,"text":"应至少每一季于再生能源资讯公开平台中公布所涉及业务之完整资料平台完成设立前各目的事业主管机关应于各机关所属官网中揭露上述资料提案人张启凯郑天才郑正前宣读完毕"},{"start":3328.956,"end":3352.345,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在謝謝議事組人員宣讀完畢我們現在協商討論四項第一案公司法部分條文修正草案我們總共有七個條文12個委員所的提案版本那我們現在開始討論我們先從公司法我們主條來討論公司法第160條開始討論先請經濟部來說明"},{"start":3366.593,"end":3386.801,"text":"謝謝主席今天依照議程安排首先針對公司法第160條的這個條文委員的提案是表達有關於股權共同共有的部分希望去做一個修正但是在這邊跟各位委員做一個說明事實上我們國家"},{"start":3388.827,"end":3416.798,"text":"公司的登记的部分当然也有公开发行公司也有小型的公司那大小的公司是不一样的那针对于公同共有的部分比如说以大型公司来讲事实上有一些的股权若是依照这样子的变更的话在法律的处理上面或是实务的处理上面我们跟相关的这个作业工会讨论是有操作上面的困难因为不确定"},{"start":3417.796,"end":3433.614,"text":"大概所有的這個股權共同共有人他的意思是如何所以在作業的程序上面就有相當的這個困難除此之外的話第二點跟各位說明的是共同共有的部分他"},{"start":3434.215,"end":3461.505,"text":"即便他擁有公司的股權我舉例來說他佔了公司的股權是10%好了他還有其他90%的一個股東的一個權利那或許在實務上面有時候這個10%的這個未確定數他可能會去影響其他90%人的這個意思所以在此經濟部建議依照現行的條文來進行好 我們也謝謝次長的說明 來"},{"start":3464.142,"end":3464.162,"text":"好"},{"start":3465.246,"end":3492.985,"text":"謝謝 沒錯那接下來剛剛第一位是陳靜芬委員然後接下來鄭振權委員這個主席來這邊宣布因為我們對於每一個條文我們都是非常的詳細討論那昨天也很慎重的跟部長等相關單位都已經這個詢打過那所以待會如果重複的部分我們就不再說 好不好這樣子我們可以更精進的去討論好 謝謝我們請陳靜芬委員"},{"start":3496.267,"end":3511.945,"text":"謝謝昭偉因為我們看了經濟部對條文的一個態度修正的態度還有司法院我想我們因為有牽扯到法的位階包括股權的部分我覺得我們應該要更慎重"},{"start":3512.762,"end":3540.229,"text":"因為我們沒有看到行政院相關單位的版本他們目前所有的資料都持反對意見而且是認為說應該有更多的配套所以我還是認為說在公司法的這個部分是不是應該先留在委員會我們繼續做比較深度的討論請我們司法院還有經濟部針對這個股權因為股權影響太大了"},{"start":3540.669,"end":3565.257,"text":"而且他的資料是不是有予以透明而且更清楚保障到我們投資人的一個權利我覺得這個影響層面很廣所以我建議說我們是不是今天可以討論尊重所有提案委員的部分但是這個公司法還是暫時留在我們委員會裡面我們再做一個進一步的深度研究 謝謝"},{"start":3566.377,"end":3587.815,"text":"好 謝謝陳庭輝委員我們現在在鄭振全委員發言之前我要特別說明因為每一位委員的提案都有所本我們也尊重每一位委員的提案那之所以我們希望要好好的相識來討論各自尊重行政院有提出行政部門的見解"},{"start":3588.996,"end":3603.588,"text":"提案委員以及我們所有的委員提出我們自己的見解這樣才是一個充分討論好 我們就請鄭振選委員然後再來就是林大華委員 謝謝謝謝主席特別安排了這一次的一個修法的討論"},{"start":3605.27,"end":3620.933,"text":"那昨天的時候 其實我們在質詢的時候 公部長他有其實把司法院推出來那我們其實看了司法院這邊所提出來的意見當中 他第一個是尊重主管機關這是第一個前提 第二個部分他認為這股東權利的部分分成"},{"start":3621.614,"end":3640.675,"text":"公益權跟自益權的部分 那麼對於整個股東的一個行為的一個行使 行為的部分包括管理跟處分 這是兩個基本上的概念 那本席這是提出來狀態的時候很清楚的提到是我們要解決公益權的一個部分跟管理的部分"},{"start":3641.315,"end":3668.361,"text":"所以我們才會提到民法820條的一個部分就是整個管理的一個部分我們要怎麼樣多數決的部分去解決這個很清楚我們提到是要解決管理的部分跟公益權的一個部分那至於說經濟部這邊提到一些小的案子比方說他提到說有牽涉到一些少數股東的自癒權的一個部分怎麼處理其實我們就很清楚的地方提到了這個部分是我們要處理公益權的一個管理的部分的一個處理"},{"start":3669.921,"end":3698.049,"text":"那至於說他在裡面有提到說這是我們提出修法當中的時候有提到說第一項推定之人得為共有人全體利益行使一切股東權利他對一切股東權利這邊如果說他認為這字有任何的問題我覺得經濟部可以提出來修可是不能夠不處理因為事實上對整個台灣的一個中小企業或者是大企業其實大家只要有碰到了比方創辦人或者是大股東"},{"start":3699.758,"end":3720.473,"text":"往生的時候他碰到遺產的問題如果說沒有一個全部的共識的時候那我們的公司就要在這邊停擺嗎這是不行的事情所以我覺得說我們現在經濟部應該要站起來要承擔這件事情那司法院提出來的意見當中他也不是說不修喔他是說我們只要在公益權跟資益權的部分"},{"start":3721.334,"end":3736.71,"text":"把它給釐清楚然後在整個行之股東權利的行為當中的時候在管理跟處分之中把它給定義清楚那這就是可以的所以本席認為這個法必須要修那至於說文字這邊我們要怎麼去做或者是"},{"start":3737.49,"end":3743.718,"text":"經濟部這邊要透過執法的部分或者管理辦法的部分或者是韓式的部分怎麼去把這邊把它給確定清楚我覺得這是經濟部要去承擔的部分可是我們不能夠不去處理這個問題就一直把它給懸在這個旁邊"},{"start":3753.109,"end":3776.67,"text":"然後讓只要有碰到了遺產問題的家族企業他們就只能夠停擺因為我們處理公益權這個問題之後我們才能夠處理股東會的問題才能夠處理表決權監察權等等的一些問題否則如果這個問題都不處理的時候我覺得台灣很多中小企業接下來碰到的問題會解決不完像本宜這邊碰到幾個陳情的案子就是他們光是要解決企業遺產的問題處理了十幾年"},{"start":3779.913,"end":3783.64,"text":"解決的時候才能夠解決這樣的企業問題那這樣子對嗎我覺得這不是經濟部碰到這樣的問題應該採取的一個態度我覺得應該要更積極來解決這個問題以上 謝謝"},{"start":3791.969,"end":3819.256,"text":"謝謝 那稍等一下這個針對於第160條的這個部分因為我們今天條蠻多那我也會充分給委員發言但是是不是容許主席台這邊針對第160條我覺得這是一個非常善的一個循環討論那麼經濟部也提出論點委員也提出論點包括提案委員"},{"start":3820.376,"end":3832.325,"text":"曾俊賢委員也提出也就是說以往的這個面向跟現在的面向情境是不一樣但是我聽曾俊賢委員的這個提案委員也就是說"},{"start":3833.792,"end":3855.768,"text":"經濟部必須要去處理那至於他的不管條文怎麼修文字怎麼修或者是到方式包括司法院等那這些是不是請我們是不是請經濟部詳時去將剛剛您所說的這一些再充分去討論把文字可以弄出來"},{"start":3856.969,"end":3880.983,"text":"那這個部分我們在賴任委員發表之後我們就來做160條的一個處理好 謝謝賴任委員好 謝謝主席這個政委員提的其實是多數決的問題但是看來經濟部有考量到的是包括一些的專家學者的討論是在於說他不容易去認定包括他的股權 股物的處理是會有一些困擾跟糾紛"},{"start":3882.003,"end":3892.348,"text":"可不可以請經濟部有更具體的一些說明好不好就是怎麼樣的狀況下的認定上會有問題跟股權上的一些糾紛可不可以請經濟部更具體的說明一下好 我們請經濟部"},{"start":3895.68,"end":3918.015,"text":"那个次长我想公司法农你这边你就那个高价银拿过来你才不会这样没关系这个OK的谢谢委员指导的这个意见事实上针对于比如说是共同共有的部分因为比如说刚刚曾委员所举例的那个继承的部分那当然有时候要发挥很多的时间它共同共有"},{"start":3919.244,"end":3943.023,"text":"不但是共同共有的意识表决或是原来的这个股份要去继承的这个部分有时候他真的我们在股物的处理上面不知道当事人的意识的表示是如何所以这个情况之下在所谓进行比如说是股东会的统计计算这个投票权或是决定权的话事实上会有一些的困难"},{"start":3946.024,"end":3960.523,"text":"那这个在当然我们同意说刚刚政委员包括主席讲的这个意见因为是不是容我们经济部去把包括政委员所提到的那些那些案例我们把它盘出来之后"},{"start":3961.104,"end":3983.069,"text":"我們再找相關的法務單位或是事務界一起來討論看看有沒有可以更前進的一個做法讓這個可能是僵局有可能打破的這個做法我請問一下次長的意思說法是說針對這些有問題的一些有爭議的個案找到看有沒有其他方法可解決而不是直接用這樣法上直接放進去是嗎這個當然有兩種可能"},{"start":3985.359,"end":4005.63,"text":"一種可能是這樣一種可能是說在法上面如政委員所提到的看看是不是做如何適度的調和去做一個修正但是這個需要一定的一個過程在實務界 高高法律界一起來討論我認為這樣子是比較周延的好 那針對於第160條你也針對160條嘛那我們針對於第160條就最後請蔡議員發言我就來做處理 謝謝好"},{"start":4014.691,"end":4033.084,"text":"我想鄭委員所提出這個160條主要是針對這一些共有的部分希望可以用多數決來取代過去可能要全體同意就是共識決但是這一個修法事實上就類似土地法"},{"start":4033.744,"end":4058.541,"text":"我們在土地法上我們過去也有這樣的定義就類似鄭委員的他們就是用人數或者是他持有土地的權力的總數的一個計算所以土地法的精神事實上就跟鄭委員這個是一樣但是土地法中還有針對處分權跟所謂行使權他們會有權力的一個分開"},{"start":4059.341,"end":4075.696,"text":"那在公私法這邊是會一樣嗎就是說在土地法裡面是處分權可能會變成處分權是多數決但是行使權是公私決這在土地法是這樣"},{"start":4076.317,"end":4104.066,"text":"那未來我們公司法如果要把這樣的精神就是多數學精神放進來的話那是把處分跟刑死都一樣的權利嗎那還是會有權利的分開的不同的太陽我想這個部分經濟部可能要斟酌一下要問一下不然如果你現在定了然後未來在解釋法令的時候又說沒有這一條只限於處分它不限於刑死"},{"start":4105.199,"end":4130.655,"text":"可能未来会有一些法令解释上会有一些错乱的状况好谢谢好谢谢那在于我们所有的委员提出宝贵意见跟行政部门也做充分沟通那针对于第160条共有股份之股东权行使我想委员之所以会提出来也就是社会现象有这个障碍所以政府也绝对有这个"},{"start":4131.435,"end":4153.748,"text":"責任要怎麼樣去調和這樣的一個面向那所以經過充分討論我們部分還是有一些要必須跨部會去討論那基本上社會有這樣的現象要謝謝鄭正前委員提出那的確有這個現象也是人民的痛苦我們要怎麼樣去協助他"},{"start":4154.528,"end":4166.495,"text":"但是一個法如果修正之後我們必須要有一個完整性的規劃所以是不是容許主席台做如此針對第160條的部分我們第一個請行政部門就剛剛所討論的各個委員所討論的因為這個都有錄音錄影"},{"start":4174.6,"end":4197.577,"text":"所讨论的需求面跟社会现象如何解决请你们跨部会去拧出一套方法以及文字出来那我们这一个条文先暂保留等你们提出之后也请跟我们那个提案委员真正的委员好好去讨论跟沟通那拧出来之后我们另定期我们再来做处理是好 那主席来是"},{"start":4199.682,"end":4208.797,"text":"謝主席做這樣一個財事可是我在想說可不可以請經濟部這邊給我們一個時間因為這個案子其實我們也推很長的時間可不可以請他們壓一個時間出來"},{"start":4214.642,"end":4235.602,"text":"这个是容我们半年的时间来处理这个事情因为这个是非常重要的一个决定你们要顾啦你至少要在这个会期前你们提出方案出来因为你提出方案也不可能一触可击提出来之后再讨论你总是要先有一个方案 政委员"},{"start":4235.902,"end":4262.796,"text":"同意嗎主席因為這是我們上個會議就提出來然後因為剛剛蔡議員他也提到的狀態跟我們的意見其實很類似因為我們覺得要往前走那是土地法對因為我們今天舉到土地法34條之一的一個案例所以我們這邊很清楚是要講說我們要處理的是公益權管理行為的部分所以我們這邊講得非常的清楚那如果說對我們修法的文字有意見我覺得可以調整我覺得本席接受可是我覺得必須要往前走"},{"start":4263.536,"end":4283.679,"text":"不能夠因為一個小部分的一個案例當中的時候他就覺得全部都不要去動那這樣子會有問題那是不是容許剛剛行政部門是說半年當然我們委員不可能等這麼久因為你也不是你提出來然後就一定是可以完整的那我們希望你有一個方向原則出來"},{"start":4284.88,"end":4311.344,"text":"那么我们再继续讨论那以原则各位同仁我们以原则行政部门以三个月的时间请行政部门提出你们所讨论的方案出来我们继续讨论好不好因为当时的土地法本席也参与过也就是当时的土地法也是跟民众的陈情雷同所以我们也是不断地在改变那同时在不管在这个处分权跟行使权的时候为什么会有这样的差别"},{"start":4311.784,"end":4340.583,"text":"因為以前有很多的技術工業有的找不到的所以才會有處分權跟行使權的比例不一樣那這個我要給行政部門免利就是說因為社會面向產生什麼樣的困難民眾的困難就是政府要有這個責任來解決好那160條很感謝各位同仁以及行政部門我們就做如此的一個這個決議以三個月內三個月內請行政部門提出針對委員所提出的內容"},{"start":4342.164,"end":4365.432,"text":"去做讨论方向出来我们继续讨论大家有没有意见没有就照主席台刚才所做的决议谢谢大家我们继续下来第165条行政部门请做说明有关于郭国文委员所的提案针对于过户的闭锁期这边跟委员会报告事实上在股东会的处理有相当多的程序"},{"start":4366.172,"end":4380.922,"text":"包括召集的通知啊還有甚至是股務包括過戶的這個閉鎖期甚至是臨時股東的少數股東的提案權甚至是告知權那過分的這個線說事實上對於"},{"start":4382.984,"end":4396.728,"text":"我剛剛所講的諸多的程序的話可能就沒有辦法去去match到比如說我們這個召集的通知在公開發行公司的話現行的規定是在30天之前臨時股東會是15天"},{"start":4398.929,"end":4413.135,"text":"我們今天假設把過戶的閉鎖企業做一個調整把它限縮的話事實上對於相關的作業的處理是有困難的所以懇請大會去支持說依照現行的方式來處理以上"},{"start":4414.246,"end":4441.369,"text":"好 各位同仁 针对行政部门所提因为提案委员不在现场虽然他不是经济委员会但是我仍旧非常尊重如果没有其他委员要发言我们这一条是不是也暂保留那因为提案委员不在现场那现在行政部门所说的30天郭委员是要改为20天临时的是15天改为10天那我想就暂保留我们也先不提出各位同仁"},{"start":4441.949,"end":4443.732,"text":"好那我們先暫保留來我們繼續下來第222條現場人禁止的兼任問題"},{"start":4450.107,"end":4475.187,"text":"有关于本条的修正在这边跟委员会报告事实上兼职他自始就违反了公司法的规定所以当有事情发生的时候这个就是一个不可逆而且是不可改正的如果是依照修正的建议的话按次来采访好像改正一个违法的决定"},{"start":4476.14,"end":4501.383,"text":"這個在法例上面是有一點有一點矛盾的事情所以以上我們建議說維持現行的規定好 針對222條那行政部門的解釋是說一般來就不行所以就不用再去更正這個這個這個概念那各位同仁各位同仁那這個就不予修正吧維持現行條文"},{"start":4502.209,"end":4525.728,"text":"維持現行條文好那這個222條就維持現行條文好來接下來235-1條員工酬勞分派的這個部分有關於本條文的這個修正委員是有提到說是不是在公司法進行修正然後要求公司的章程裡面明定這些的"},{"start":4528.055,"end":4555.757,"text":"酬勞或是酬勞他必須要跟同業相比或是包括其他委員有提到跟物價的部分相比在這邊提出一點說明第一個酬勞跟薪資是不一樣的那公司法這邊是規定的是酬勞的一個事項那另外一個部分雖然說證交署證交法有相規定說公開發行公司他應該分派給"},{"start":4557.082,"end":4575.747,"text":"基層員工那也是對象不一樣那我們今天假設在這個地方把它做一個修正的話其實對象不一樣適用的標的也是不一樣這是我要進行說明的另外一個部分是在實務處理上面我們的公司的型態非常多種"},{"start":4576.96,"end":4601.623,"text":"那其實與同業比較這是一個不確定性的概念事實上也很難有相當的統計的數字來做一個評比那甚至我們這個立法我也提案委員的想法是好的但是我是定了一個很僵固的一個比例的話事實上它也不排除有更高的可能性"},{"start":4604.043,"end":4621.193,"text":"讓這個基層員工可以照顧的這個可能那反而是鼓勵一些的資方用最低的這個標準來分派酬勞所以以上我們提出這幾個看法請主委委員予以指正好 有沒有委員要發言"},{"start":4623.12,"end":4640.611,"text":"如果沒有本條那這個本人有提案那次長你剛才所說的跟本席的目標剛好背道而馳因為本席所提的是你的公司在分派酬勞的時候不得低於同業利潤標準"},{"start":4641.351,"end":4659.449,"text":"不得低于所以你刚才的解释是说如果这样会遏制人家如果要分派多一点的酬劳反而是一个限缩所以你文字要看清楚是不得低于同业利润标准这是第一项第二个你认为说如果这样制定下去那不同类别"},{"start":4659.989,"end":4684.386,"text":"就是因為不同類別所以你經濟部每一年都會有定一個這個同業利潤標準這是由你政府自己去制定的這不是民間自己去制定的所以我再次強調本席的提案是說你酬勞分配的時候不得低於同業利潤標準是這個樣子的所以跟剛剛你所解釋的剛好相反那其他委員沒有意見"},{"start":4687.428,"end":4715.034,"text":"我們今天剛剛在宣讀的時候張祺凱委員他也是本委文匯的他有提一個修正動議已經成案也宣讀過我們就並案討論所以如果沒有其他的委員的意見第235條之一我請行政部門你們再去研議我願意給一點時間因為你的方向跟我所提案的你的回答剛好相反我們同樣的目的都是要照顧員工"},{"start":4716.434,"end":4736.921,"text":"也鼓励老板你有好大家分融制度怎么样有一个调和完整性这样子对劳资双方会更好因为现在的经营模式甚至还有人都一个礼拜就分融一次也有这种形象那每一种的经营样态不一样"},{"start":4737.541,"end":4764.492,"text":"當然是老闆決定員工去決定但是政府我認為對於繼承員工還是有這個責任要怎麼樣保障他你的政交法可以這麼做為什麼我們一般小型的不能做而且你是設一個低標你是設一個低標不是設一個讓他沒有辦法而且這個低標是政府所公告同業利潤標準是政府所公告那我想次長剛才所說我相信行政部門也"},{"start":4765.572,"end":4791.666,"text":"也是以要照顾我们的员工不要吃亏那同时你点头这样就你应该可以同意我的提案了你怎么点头又解释不一样呢不是这个容我们依照主席的才智我们去检讨一下比较好的方式对啦所以以后我请行政部门你们要提出说明的时候法案要去看清楚你们要讲的跟你们的"},{"start":4792.466,"end":4797.28,"text":"的目標方向是不一致的嘛好啦 那至少就235條之一我們的目標"},{"start":4800.157,"end":4822.812,"text":"證交法裡面上市貴的是OK的是這麼做的那我們一般的應該也可以朝這個方向那至於細節的部分我容許再給多一點時間請這個行政部門你們再去研議清楚看是方法還是你的文字要怎麼樣去修正 好不好趕快去討論好好 那第235條之一我們討論到這裡我們繼續討論 好不好暫保留繼續討論來"},{"start":4830.598,"end":4840.532,"text":"各位同仁 有沒有意見沒有 我們就照如此 謝謝來 我們現在討論第387條公司登記代理人的部分我們請行政部門說明"},{"start":4846.394,"end":4872.074,"text":"好 謝謝有關於這一條的修正案事實上現行的這個實務記帳是已經可以送件了但是條文裡面大家討論的是說是不是代理的部分那代理的部分在這邊跟諸位委員報告無論是日本 美國跟新加坡所謂辦理這些的代理都有專門職業的人員來去行使這個部分"},{"start":4872.847,"end":4898.26,"text":"那當然所謂的專門職業人員他必須要經過國家的考試有一定的科目所以我們認為說這樣子可以來保護這個教育的這個安全性跟穩定性那這個是必須要去兼顧的那另外的話當然其他的這個專門職業代理人他們工會也是有一些的不同的這些意見那是不是這個部分"},{"start":4900.374,"end":4911.346,"text":"我覺得可以從他的這個資格上面或是他的這個資格條件或是他的專業能力的提升上面來討論這個事項 以上"},{"start":4918.195,"end":4940.342,"text":"我非常遺憾經濟部竟然這樣的表達是對於目前公司代理登記的業務完全是不能掌握現況是什麼現況是這百分之八十幾的公司登記都是由記帳代理人記帳室在執行"},{"start":4942.623,"end":4966.153,"text":"然後他們拿到業務之後只要做簽證的該去找會計師就搞會計師要去找律師的就去找律師所以其實是現在真的業務在接的叫做記賬室或者記賬室代理人這個是現況所以今天的法令的修訂把"},{"start":4966.813,"end":4992.851,"text":"这个公司登记的代理人纳入记账室只不过是让现况把它作为法治化而已也让现况的记账室或者是其代理人能够再更有一个法规的依据来做监督他们那我要讲一个历史"},{"start":4993.772,"end":5015.603,"text":"第二個當初記帳是要考這個現在目前的記帳是只考公司法的登記片那為什麼當時這個記帳是說這個要考這個整部的公司法的時候會計師他們是反對的他說法說因為你不是公司代理人"},{"start":5017.347,"end":5044.86,"text":"所以我们反对记账是去考公司法的全部的法令可是他们现在是考公司法的登记片所以当初记现在你反过来说好你要你这个记账是你现在可以来我们是可以允许你来做这个作为代理人的我们允许但是我们门槛是你要考公司法"},{"start":5046.04,"end":5074.563,"text":"證券法所以我現在回顧當時的歷史記帳室是願意來做公司法整部考試的這樣的一個要求的當初是會計師是不願意理由是因為你不是公司代理人本來記帳室就不是公司代理人他們要爭取的也不過是公司登記代理人我講這一段歷史"},{"start":5075.164,"end":5078.462,"text":"再来记账师这个"},{"start":5080.856,"end":5104.693,"text":"這個本席也同意我非常同意經濟部你的要求要考公司法證券法此法通過之後即刻執行法令的這個調整科目如果今年20我是不曉得今年2025年是考過了沒如果沒有就是2026年加考公司法全部證交法全部"},{"start":5105.493,"end":5124.224,"text":"馬上就下去考不過的認賭服輸嘛你考不過了你竟然就是你就不能執行你現在的公司登記代理人的這個業務嘛所以就是通過這個法好那你說遜那我這邊就要給你額落啊你們經濟部很落實喔"},{"start":5124.864,"end":5146.026,"text":"在訓練的部分 你每一年定期跟記帳師或者是相關的代理人你們是很落實的每年都好幾次的 至少一次啦不管你只要新的法規一族來一站式的線上的新方法 課程你們都是馬上跟他們開課"},{"start":5148.468,"end":5165.948,"text":"說訓練你們也都很落實的在做所以你考訓你只要補上考就好了嘛好 再來他們的資格現在洗錢防治的規範的對象不是只有會計師也不是只有律師欸洗錢防治的"},{"start":5166.829,"end":5180.745,"text":"管制的對象包括記帳室記帳室跟記帳室代理人他們是高度金融列管的他不能亂來他們的任何的監督是等同律師、會計師"},{"start":5183.197,"end":5199.632,"text":"所以这样高度监管他那我又要求他的这个法令的再加上他们的要求这个公司法政交法法通过之后就是即刻的加考你考不过那你就不能给我办理登记就这么简单啊"},{"start":5200.799,"end":5218.286,"text":"就很乾脆所以我認同你們所以不抵觸訓練你們本來就很弱勢了他們的資格高度監管他們的這個行業那你既然受高度監管那他也執行這個業務重點是今天講工作權今天法通過之後會不會影響會計師跟律師的業務不會"},{"start":5224.4,"end":5246.091,"text":"不會嘛所以你反對什麼只是把現況真的在接案子的好你真的要限縮啦這一點我是持保留可是我也某個程度的同意也就核心存核委員的我的版本是我還講明喔我的版本是說你記賬是記賬及報稅代理人你要納入你的登記但"},{"start":5246.551,"end":5262.39,"text":"我還是寫出來但依法應簽證或另有其他法令規定應由會計師或律師辦理的相關事項則依其規定辦理所以我只是把現況再講清楚而已嘛本來現況回去都是我們這裡的計帳司啊是主要要簽證一定要找"},{"start":5264.693,"end":5283.532,"text":"會計書還是相關的書因為像國外的外國公司來的話那你一定是要不是只有會計有時候是律師是在接這個國外的這個記帳的業務好那沒關係那我也可以接受何清淳何委員的他就說公司登記的資本未達新台幣3000萬的如果是3000萬以下的那就有給這個"},{"start":5285.174,"end":5293.691,"text":"也可以让这个记账室记账室或记账记报税代理人来做这一条我也同意那我都尊重主席的协商"},{"start":5295.061,"end":5323.033,"text":"所以我在这边这个来阐述一下过往这个记账是他们在争取在公司登记账中的努力对于你们的要求公司法包括证据法的考虑其实本身就是要本身就是这样过往就这样要求了那你现在在要求他那也更证明他们其实在你们的长期的做训练以及对这个职业的职能的提升你们确实是有成效嘛"},{"start":5323.553,"end":5335.437,"text":"所以你現在講這個公司法案 他們馬上舉三手三審你們也不用什麼過渡期 馬上通過之後馬上考他們都覺得都可以 都可以升任好 以上謝謝好 謝謝接下來張書仁委員 謝謝"},{"start":5340.148,"end":5366.33,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有關於這個公司把387條的修法那我本身我是支持這個經濟部的講法因為其實經濟部的解釋我覺得非常的清楚其實現行的法令裡面這個公司登記的部分它是由負責人親送或是律師會計師代理登記這裡面的講法非常清楚就是有一個代理人的一個概念在裡面那記帳是現在也是在協助可是記帳是跟報稅代理人這兩個"},{"start":5368.612,"end":5391.914,"text":"這兩個職業的他是協助公司帶送件的部分所以現在記帳室其實還是在協助相關的有關於公司登記的部分的一個業務那其實為什麼我們講公司登記現在過去為什麼長期以來這個法令其實很多委員有提都沒有做修法動作就是因為有涉及會計跟法律的事務其實有複雜性跟專業性還有交易安全的問題所以"},{"start":5393.055,"end":5410.311,"text":"當然經濟部之前我們有看到他們其實一直有在開座談會說明會邀請很多專家學者團體拿大家普遍的意見而且經濟部今天的意見就是應該要一定的考訓我們就算是參考國際上比如說日本美國新加坡等等這些國家"},{"start":5411.172,"end":5430.541,"text":"其实都是要求要专业的人员所以为什么会计师律师我们在讲他是一个高考等级的那记账师他是一个普考等级的所以我觉得从考试制度上就是要先做一个区隔所以当然今天经济部的想法是说如果他去念公司法跟商法"},{"start":5431.161,"end":5452.017,"text":"就可以只要做這樣的事情的話就可以有相對應的會計跟法律的實務我覺得這一點我覺得是可以在大家可以在討論的所以我覺得說經濟部這邊也不要就是現在就斷定說只要是多考這兩個考試他們就可以把過去就是他們可以再跨一個階級跨一個階級可以再做下一個工作因為"},{"start":5452.757,"end":5474.14,"text":"過去就我所知因為我本身也是相關職業也跟會計師律師記賬師都保持很好的感情其實過去大家在合作的情況下都是合作無間的大家各自各施其職那我過去本身也在北商教書北商現在畢業就已經要求這個學生要考到記賬師的資格我不知道他會職業啊但考上跟職業是另外一件事情"},{"start":5474.921,"end":5490.095,"text":"那所以我的認為是說是不是這個這一條當然我相信每個委員他都有一定的想法跟很多的公會給他們一定的建議那我是不是認為說你們應該趕快再去多開幾次會會籍到底是不是記帳是真的想要說我就是"},{"start":5491.276,"end":5518.609,"text":"一個普考一個高考那當然對關係師跟律師來講是高考計算師普考你們覺得真的只加這兩個科目考完整他們就可以把所有公司登記的部分去做完備所以這點我覺得經濟部這邊還是要說明一下如果不行的話我建議還是再多開幾次會議真的聚集三個工會的意見大家坐下來好好討論不要傷了和氣 以上好謝謝委員還有沒有"},{"start":5520.509,"end":5548.669,"text":"邱映委員是對不起我請教一下代理人跟代辦的不同點在哪裡代理人的法律位階看起來應該是比較高代辦的法律位階應該是比較低所以記帳室或者是會計師律師現在其實都是可以處理公司登記的代辦業務但是真正要成為公司的代理人"},{"start":5549.209,"end":5561.243,"text":"你在法理上面在資格上面是不是應該是會有比較高的這個認定所以我其實同意剛剛這個張委員的看法我覺得就"},{"start":5562.403,"end":5581.113,"text":"代理人這個部分是不是要納入記帳室跟因為大部分的委員都是提記帳室那也有委員林委員也提到記帳跟報稅代理人也把它納入那假如說未來我們要放寬到記帳室"},{"start":5582.233,"end":5597.649,"text":"也可以的話那我覺得在考試資格的認定上面這個其實也是要同步的去協商或者是同步的去研究辦理畢竟高考跟普考的資格認定其實是不太一樣的"},{"start":5598.69,"end":5624.102,"text":"所以其实这个我们也有提了一个附带决议就是说是不是请经济部能够再跟所谓的我们的考试院考试相关机关再去研议即使我们不反对把记账室纳入但是要纳入记账室的时候其实相关的资格认定上面是不是也能够同步的去做调整以上来等一下请经济部回好"},{"start":5625.315,"end":5653.891,"text":"好谢谢那我们接下来我们也请行政部门你们注意记录谢谢这是两个一定要厘清可能在这个厘清上要很清楚公司代理人跟公司登记代理人这是两码子的事我们现在争取的是公司登记代理人"},{"start":5655.195,"end":5675.391,"text":"这是第一个所以公司第二个现况85%的业务是记账公司登记的业务是85%都是记账室或是这个记账及报税代理人在做"},{"start":5676.292,"end":5699.531,"text":"他們遇到需要簽證才去找會計師現況是會計師或者是這個加上律師會去實質做公司登記的業務佔10%我這個數字如果有錯請署長挑戰我我這個數字如果有錯你挑戰我"},{"start":5707.726,"end":5726.297,"text":"85%現況是記帳室跟記帳報稅代理人在做但是他們都依照法規所以真的在做的會計師加上律師10%而已所以這個第三個講到"},{"start":5727.886,"end":5754.352,"text":"日本美國新加坡等國登記代理人講好喔你們也講對喔你們是你們觀念是清楚的經濟部觀念是清楚的經查日本美國新加坡等國的登記代理人的資格多限於專業職業人員本國的記帳是跟記帳及報稅代理人是不是專業職業人員"},{"start":5758.188,"end":5780.053,"text":"回答我啊這個請回答當然是啊國家考試啊所以第四個你們的要求如果你們對訓你們的訓練我很認同百分百100分你要要求他在加考公司法跟政教法本席200%認同所以我從現況業務"},{"start":5788.286,"end":5811.124,"text":"現況的業務的市場的佔有量會計師加上律師才10%85%都是現況的公司登記不是公司代理人搞清楚這是兩碼子的事 他們現在爭取的是公司登記代理人"},{"start":5813.806,"end":5815.247,"text":"所以今天你們寫經濟部講的這三段話這兩段話馬上就打臉了"},{"start":5823.171,"end":5850.664,"text":"一點符合現況也沒有然後也蒙騙混淆視聽立法院而沒有把實質記帳公司登記的現況實質的反映在立法院的一個這樣的一個立院的一個這樣的一個審查法案的一個說明"},{"start":5851.857,"end":5876.853,"text":"你講到說等國你連這句話都可以寫出來喔清查日美新等國登記代理人資格多限於專業職業人員你這個意思是在說我們的記帳室跟記帳報稅代理人不是專業職業人員嗎那他們考的是普考沒有錯啊所以他不能做簽證啊只有律師跟會計師他要負責什麼負責簽證啊"},{"start":5880.564,"end":5906.187,"text":"他怎麼可能去做記帳那不可能嘛 表示你連現況記帳會計師跟律師的實質收入來源是什麼你都搞不清楚你在這邊混淆視聽好 以上謝謝好 謝謝那行政部沒有要補充如果沒有要補充那這個針對於"},{"start":5909.075,"end":5922.649,"text":"387条的这个部分我想我们讨论到现在大家请注意听一下讨论到现在大家都认定不管是会计师不管是记账师不管是税务代理人他们"},{"start":5923.43,"end":5939.403,"text":"因為當時計帳室跟稅務報稅代理人也是我們立法院三讀通過而去執行職的那當然他們的層級就是說他簽的不一樣三千萬以下是我們這裡辛苦的這個計帳室稅務代理人在簽"},{"start":5940.583,"end":5969.703,"text":"所以当时会计师也很好会计师最后大家一直讨论讨论到最后说两个是合作可以非常好所以会计师也欢喜这个法案我们通过我想当时的军运委员我们都在现场当时的参与委员就是他爸爸在现场的所以因为这都是国家很重要的贡献者"},{"start":5970.483,"end":5996.037,"text":"所以我真的非常希望各自委員提出的論點我們就是要很理性的去討論跟剛剛第一條開始160條開始我一再強調我們要怎麼樣讓人民可以安心而且這些工作大家分工可以做得好那現在到目前為止不管是剛開始的行政部門說明以及委員的說明我們想各自方向都一樣為了台灣的產業好"},{"start":5997.618,"end":6023.564,"text":"為了職業者能夠好這兩個原則一定是大家共識那當然行政部門在昨天詢答的時候也提出就是說你們在這個考試的方面可以跨部會還要討論有什麼樣的方向那我個人認為請各位大家聽聽看因為我們今天從昨天的質詢 詢答到今天有一個共識點"},{"start":6024.944,"end":6038.617,"text":"都認同這兩個都是很重要國家的貢獻者會計師 計帳室 稅務報稅代理人 都是而且也協助了政府很多事也協助了公司很多事所以相關的細節"},{"start":6040.239,"end":6061.627,"text":"要怎麼樣去做台灣的產業一定會越來越好那相關的細節要怎麼做我想就請行政部門你們趕快跨部會去研擬也跟工會大家來研議因為已經有所本的脈絡了已經有所本的脈絡要怎麼樣去做會更好 好吧那你們去研擬好我們再來繼續討論"},{"start":6063.428,"end":6080.765,"text":"是好那各位委員剛剛本席針對於387條所做成大家充分發言行政部門也提出說明那也是不是同意本席剛剛所做的針對第387條那行政部門你們務必要加油一定要加油好不好好"},{"start":6082.106,"end":6108.587,"text":"那這個第387條做如此的決議那時間還是要有一個時間點因為剛剛我們另外有一個案子是請你們160條是請你們也約在這個三個月內那你們也一樣這樣去討論提出方案出來好不好來 各位同仁針對於387條本席做如此的初步的一個方向你們覺得"},{"start":6111.428,"end":6137.753,"text":"對 暫保留請行政部門去努力那我們定期再來討論行政部門加油好 大家同意好 謝謝接下來387條之一387條我們要謝謝劉許廷委員因為從昨天的詢問一直到現在有達成雙方的共識我們先宣讀"},{"start":6140.242,"end":6163.04,"text":"修正動議第387條之一公司於申請設立登記後應參加各級政府機關或其指定非營利組織辦理之勞動權益講習中央主管機關應於其資訊網站註記公司參加第一項勞動權益講習與否之情形提案人 楊瓊英 張琦楷 鄭天才 劉許廷"},{"start":6164.781,"end":6192.099,"text":"附带决议公司于申请设立登记后应参加各级政府机关或其指定非盈利组织办理之劳动权益奖习为维持奖习品质及协助提升雇主劳动权益之法遵意是其奖习之对象内容实施方式其指定非盈利组织办理之资格条件及其他应遵行事项请中央主管机关会商中央劳动主管机关定之"},{"start":6192.819,"end":6208.631,"text":"提案人 楊瓊英 張啟凱 鄭天才 牛許廷 邱奕穎 蔡奕瑜 宣讀完畢好 那針對於第387條 公司登記 387條之一那我們剛剛從昨天的這個詢答 到剛剛的這個協商那我們先請這個提案委員 是"},{"start":6218.078,"end":6233.411,"text":"好謝謝主席喔其實這個就是希望雇主跟更有勞動意識啦尤其是微型企業要避免勞資糾紛從源頭開始所以我們本來希望在登記前變成要件那當然昨天在詢答的時候跟經濟部溝通的過程中我們也了解啦就是公司登記大家希望"},{"start":6234.031,"end":6247.163,"text":"便捷快速嘛從經濟部的本位 這我們願意尊重因此從昨天詢答之後 我就進行密集的協商最後達成共識的方向就如同修正動議所提基本上我們允許在登記後但是賦予他參與勞動講習的這樣子的一個責任那這個"},{"start":6253.206,"end":6278.792,"text":"檢驗這個責任的方式就是用註記的方式這樣子相對來講執行的這個執行的易達性比較高那從勞工的角度我在求職的時候我只要去看相關的登記你就可以了解這個僱主的勞動意識充不充分我想對勞工也是有保障那相對來講對僱主來講的負擔不會這麼重那麼這樣的一個修正動議包含商業登記法都是同樣的邏輯已經跟行政機關包含經濟部包含勞動部已經達成共識"},{"start":6279.172,"end":6287.399,"text":"那就希望各位委員共同支持我們至少讓今天這個法條是有共識的狀態可以送足委員會 以上謝謝行政部門有沒有要再補充"},{"start":6288.845,"end":6314.839,"text":"非常感謝委員同意也提出了一個修正動議就是把它設計前改成這個後的這個部分那至於後面的這個註記就如同委員剛剛所說明我這邊就不再贅述那這個部分謝謝這個委員的指導也感謝希望說我們讓這個整個勞動權益跟包括公司的這個登記更加更加便捷有快速"},{"start":6315.865,"end":6336.931,"text":"好 謝謝我們提案委員 劉雪婷委員以及行政部門從昨天選打結束之後 雙方有所爭議的部分 分歧的部分我們今天終於這個這個協商成功那這個是在第387條之一我們依照這個剛剛所做的修正動議"},{"start":6338.351,"end":6362.899,"text":"以及宣讀的文字 我們正式通過那第449條就依照牛許廷委員就是說通過之後公布以6個月這個施行我們本來是講說因為登記前要多一個門檻所以有預留日出條款 但現在這個東西比較簡單那還有沒有必要做這個事 我們尊重行政機關的意見好不好來 請行政部門"},{"start":6366.244,"end":6379.966,"text":"系統租金要修正系統除了要修正之外系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之外 系統除了要修正之"},{"start":6383.22,"end":6402.535,"text":"已經處理了第449條我們依照牛許廷委員新增至第387條之一條文於公佈後6個月內實施我們也鼓勵行政部門你該當要調整的系統要宣導的要去講好好就依照這個"},{"start":6405.467,"end":6413.274,"text":"劉委員所提案的 照樣通過接下來我們有兩個附帶決議一個是張其凱委員 一個是本席我們先討論張其凱委員"},{"start":6434.585,"end":6440.795,"text":"行政部門針對於張旗愷委員的附帶決議有沒有好那我們這個張旗愷委員"},{"start":6450.805,"end":6463.57,"text":"所提案的因為235條之一我們的主條文還沒有討論好我們要暫保留所以這個等討論的時候再一併討論那另外公司法第387條附帶"},{"start":6466.451,"end":6483.019,"text":"之一的這個附帶決議那剛剛也已經宣讀過來 請同意辦理同意辦理 好公司法附帶決議本席以及劉許廷委員 張綺凱委員鄭天才委員議員你要不要 那387條議員你要不要聯署來 蔡議員要不要這一張走沒有"},{"start":6490.809,"end":6501.175,"text":"這門在哪裡都有簽嗎好都有簽那最好了就是公司法第387條之一的附帶決議我們就照文字通過好 謝謝好"},{"start":6508.137,"end":6523.583,"text":"我們有簽的委員都要尊重喔因為我在主席台再宣布一下因為我們經濟委員會因為有的不是我們經濟委員會我要特別說明經濟委員會是最和諧的因為我們經濟要好所以大家義中求同謝謝 好"},{"start":6526.698,"end":6538.622,"text":"主席在這邊來宣告公司法部分條文修正草案部分第12案委員 紐許庭委員所提的387條之一修正通過第449條 照案通過"},{"start":6544.775,"end":6572.346,"text":"那同時附帶決議的部分第二案我們照案通過行政部門那其餘個案以及附帶決議的第一案也就是235條之一我們另定期繼續審查那在這邊公司法我還要再勉勵行政部門剛剛特別160條跟387條請你們一定要趕快務實的去討論 好不好去提出方案 謝謝"},{"start":6574.895,"end":6576.736,"text":"接下來我們不休息繼續討論我們現在先讀修正動議請宣讀"},{"start":6585.191,"end":6611.437,"text":"商業登記法修正動議 第九條之一商業於申請設立登記後 應參加各級政府機關或其指定非營利組織辦理之勞動權益講習中央主管機關應於其資訊網站註記商業參加第一項勞動權益講習與否之情形提案人 楊瓊英 張綺凱 鄭天才 邱益穎 蔡奕宇 劉許廷 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6622.148,"end":6642.466,"text":"好 我們針對於商業登記法第9條之一跟這個第37條因為這個提案內容跟我們之前討論的公司法387條之一以及第449條的立法一直都相同所以本案依前決議來處理行政部門"},{"start":6647.165,"end":6653.368,"text":"如果沒有我們就通過 謝謝 謝謝大家的呈現好 謝謝 謝謝林委員 謝謝接下來我們要討論接下來我們繼續 繼續能源法來我們現在協商討論第三案 能源管理法部分"},{"start":6677.27,"end":6679.613,"text":"修正草案 我們先請經濟部來說明一條一條 OK"},{"start":6693.912,"end":6721.689,"text":"有关于蔡锡昌委员及钟嘉斌委员等提案针对第二条的修正的部分那这里面把所谓的再生能源包括热能把它订进来那其实这个是跟我们现在在送行政院演绎中的行政院版本我们方向是一样的那我们是建议说是不是这个部分啊"},{"start":6722.264,"end":6750.262,"text":"可以等到我們的行政院版因為行政院版還有其他的條文是不是等那個時候一併案來做一個討論以上這個這樣子來下面發言前那個行政部門因為能管法是大家非常非常的關心那也因為現在綠能等等的不一樣的樣態的能源那這個我們昨天也說了比照"},{"start":6751.182,"end":6779.805,"text":"國安的這個管理很重要那是不是這個能源管理法呢現在行政院版本還沒有來那昨天各位同仁昨天有說你們預計希望在兩個月內行政部門會出來行政院版那我們也願意給點時間但是呢你們必須務必去追一定要去追不能擺在那裡沒有那個立法委員已經這麼多人提案"},{"start":6780.766,"end":6804.404,"text":"而且是上個去年度所公告的去年度所公告的所預告的到現在我們委員都已經提案大家緊張的不得了了那我們的行政院版本還沒出來那還好聽到你們已經送到行政院所以你們務必要加緊腳步但是今天我們還是希望聽到"},{"start":6805.445,"end":6829.666,"text":"行政部門 你們針對委員所有的提案你們的論述到底是什麼你們必須要說明一下 好不好他們說一下 整體說一下我們再說 再說好不好行政部門主條說嗎 還是"},{"start":6833.547,"end":6860.527,"text":"整体的部分包括所谓的除了我们这次行政院版在演绎中的有包括体力还有包括文字做一部分的调整之外那另外一个部分就是针对于我们现在的我们希望让地方政府"},{"start":6862.068,"end":6879.233,"text":"有权力有能力去查核节电的一个成果那这也是我们这个修法的这个方向然后除此之外的话我们希望说那未来在相关的这个发电业者相关的这个数据可以有一个公开透明"},{"start":6880.987,"end":6905.078,"text":"的一个做法当然台电现在已经有在做了但是我们希望说让他这个做法有一个法源的依据比如说他促进这个能源的合理利用使用效率公开能源的这个销售的统计这些的资料我们是希望说在这个部分做一个改正增强一个说明那除此之外的话我们针对于"},{"start":6909.585,"end":6935.655,"text":"主管機關得派員或是委託來辦理相關的這個專業機構的一個審核的這個部分我們也做一些條文的一個說明然後做一個修正那除此之外的話我們對於包括這個未經許可而經中央主管機關公告的產品"},{"start":6936.431,"end":6944.167,"text":"然后去进行销售然后我们针对于这个部分法则的部分有做一个修正的一个建议"},{"start":6947.932,"end":6976.54,"text":"那总体来说跟组委委员会报告的是我们除了针对能源管理法因为这是一个比较老的一个法令那过去很多的能源的事项比如说是石油管理法或是天然气事业法这些都有独立甚至是再生能源发展条例这些都有独立的专法出来所以我们期待说借此让这次行政院把我们的能源管理的部分把它做一个加强以上"},{"start":6978.271,"end":7006.701,"text":"好 謝謝行政部門 來 那個邱議員然後再來賴樂潤委員好 謝謝主席 這個原則上我我同意主席剛剛的建議就是說如果行政院的版本還沒有下來那對於能源的這個能源管理的這個議題這個法條其實相對是重要是不是我們能夠今天保留那等行政院的版本進來的時候再並案審查這樣是不是會可能比較周全一點"},{"start":7007.608,"end":7034.788,"text":"那本席其實有一個提案是針對於這個故意散播故意造謠在這個影響國家的能源政策的攻擊上面其實我看昨天行政院也不斷的在發出新聞在澄清一些謠言我本來是很希望至少今天能夠先通過這一條但是如果大家決定要整個所有的提案保留並案處理的話我也不堅持"},{"start":7039.235,"end":7048.158,"text":"謝謝 那我們賴瑞榮委員好 謝謝主席我可不可以請教一下行政院的版本進來預定是什麼時候我希望還是要有一個時間點兩個月內出來了送進經濟委員會嗎還是出兩個月這個會期來不及耶會嗎"},{"start":7058.462,"end":7075.797,"text":"我们会尽快因为刚刚主席有说我们会去催促一下我们现在针对于预告的这些的资料去做一个修正我们快速的修正之外针对于行政院的行政的程序的部分我们也希望说来加速"},{"start":7076.397,"end":7093.812,"text":"市長其實這個其實是一個修正而已而且因為大家的版本也都出來了那其實你們應該內部意見也都差不多我希望能夠一個月內完成好不好因為這樣子還有機會在年底前有機會來完成這樣的一個三讀的程序可不可以一個月內因為我認為其實難度應該是不高啦因為多數"},{"start":7094.853,"end":7108.849,"text":"你們的有共識的就提出來如果你們還有困難的就你們就就跟大家講嘛就是你們還有困難還必須要在因為修法本來就是不斷在進行的一個過程先把你們已經有共識也覺得可以的提出來那我們跟委員們版本大家一起來審"},{"start":7109.81,"end":7137.763,"text":"谢谢委员的这个指正但是因为在这个会期我们还有其他一些的法案比如说是像土耻财区法这些我们还是在做处理那是不是跟主席跟委员说明是我们做两个月内我们不会等到两个月我们也希望说这个会期能做这样子啦你在这边争议几个月内没有什么效应来那那个刚刚那位委员是希望时间可以快一点一个月啦我希望一个月"},{"start":7138.904,"end":7157.579,"text":"好來針對於我們能源管理法裡頭呢我們總共有21條21條的條文那還有兩個附帶決議有第二條跟第六條之一這個修正動議呢是這個張啟凱委員那本席的還沒有其他委員要提要發言"},{"start":7159.151,"end":7184.21,"text":"沒有本席所提的是第7條因為剛剛是請行政部門做21條的綜合報告所以第7條儲能的部分我是希望說你們在研議的當中要怎麼樣去做因為這個是現在目前台灣迫切需要的東南亞國家美日韓都"},{"start":7185.511,"end":7213.587,"text":"都这么做 先进国家都这么做东南亚都在做那我们因为我们是海岛型国家万一碰到这个封锁的时候我们的能源进不来的时候才会说能源等于是国安的议题在讨论那所以这个除能的议案本席认为是非常的重要那我本席也特别在提出针对我们所做的提案希望行政部门"},{"start":7214.307,"end":7230.005,"text":"那因為各位同仁因為剛剛這個行政部門也說了到昨天昨天他們也說送到行政原本他們是說三個月那我們絕對不同意昨天在巡打的時候所以有一個兩個月內"},{"start":7232.247,"end":7248.158,"text":"兩個月內那本期是這樣子因為委員大家也急其實這個是在為行政院做事情行政院你們應該要跑比我們還快因為我們都在基層都在這個工業區都在廠商那裡知道"},{"start":7249.805,"end":7268.704,"text":"人民對於能源的一個未確定感很緊張所以是不是容許本席做如此的建議也就是你們現在既然已經送到行政院了那你們要加緊腳步請行政院趕快自己要去"},{"start":7269.745,"end":7293.914,"text":"速度加快那同時你經濟部可以同步進行21條的條文我們昨天也都宣讀過了今天早上都宣讀過了昨天也討論過了委員也提出意見了你們同步去進行你們針對於21條你行政院版在你手上已經有了那你針對委員的這個部分你們再去做一個你們的建議綜合版"},{"start":7294.634,"end":7316.985,"text":"建議比這個對比表出來對比版出來那我們也希望能夠速度快你們是不是可以在一個月內拿出你們行政院版你手上有嗎只是我們沒看到我們立法院還沒送來我們沒看到所以你們先趕快同步進行去針對21條的條文跟兩個修正同意的這個部分"},{"start":7323.95,"end":7330.89,"text":"那你們去做對照表出來那你一個月內去把它做出來一方面你們也去追行政院更快"},{"start":7332.034,"end":7360.133,"text":"其實坦白講照理講立法院是不應當把你們講到這麼細但是我們真的真心希望我們的產業能源能夠穩定能夠安全所以我們還是願意講得這麼細你們是不是一個月內將這21個條文跟你的行政院板目前你有的去對照希望在一個月內你的行政院板也出來因為板是你們做的"},{"start":7362.374,"end":7388.885,"text":"大概原則上是差不多你趕快去跟這個21條跟兩個修正動議去做一個對比版本對比版本也就是說如果你們跟委員所提的不一樣那有什麼方法還是怎麼樣的文字修正去做調和在一個月內把這個東西出來那我們再擇期再來審"},{"start":7391.079,"end":7398.47,"text":"這樣子我想有一個時間點大家加油一下不要一直擺著我想這個人民不容許的來 次長"},{"start":7401.699,"end":7420.808,"text":"是 刚刚委员的建议我们现在有能源署他所提出来的出来经济部的这个版本那依照主席的材质我们可以针对这个版本去做一个对照表那这个对照表的话我们可以在一个礼拜里面就可以出来但是行政院版它还没有出来我们没有办法去做"},{"start":7421.687,"end":7451.056,"text":"因为最后行政院可能还会有一些的修正那当然或许这个行政会会跟我们经济部的大致是一样所以是不是容我们做一个修正我就容许给你一个月了你这样来 各位同仁因为这是一个建议的方向当然他们没有绝对的约束力当然就是你们尽量朝这个目标来前进好不好好 我们来努力依照主席财事的目标来努力"},{"start":7452.284,"end":7471.486,"text":"我也謝謝次長因為次長剛剛說我還是要說明清楚次長說如果對照表是一個禮拜我覺得這不太負責任因為21條條文昨天的詢談裡面有很多是行政部門跟委員的提案是不相同的所以我也很體貼的希望你們想死去討論"},{"start":7472.441,"end":7493.948,"text":"因為我覺得要做就做真的而不是只有一個書面資料來就不好一定要溝通所以主席台是不是針對我們討論的第三案能管法的部分我們就照剛剛委員所建議所提的內容請行政部門在一個月內"},{"start":7495.088,"end":7519.383,"text":"你们将目前你们掌控的行政院版本跟委员21条条文跟修正张其凯两个委员两个修正动议那么你们去做整体性的一个讨论然后提出你们的综合版本出来那在这个期间也跟委员好好的去沟通"},{"start":7520.664,"end":7533.875,"text":"那这个一个月内拿出来那另外第二个也请免利经济部这边跟行政院多一沟通行政院版本要尽速赶快提出送到立法院好吗"},{"start":7535.1,"end":7558.895,"text":"OK那个对照表是不是做一个草案就好了对对对你一个月内拿来就资料嘛那如果是时间有稍微有差一点点我们再跟委员会再去做一个建议对对对就一个月内好各位同仁针对刚刚我们针对第三案能管法是不是照如此的建议请教各位同仁来"},{"start":7564.553,"end":7582.045,"text":"討論事項第三案我們愛行政院版討論事項第三案我們另定期繼續併案審查啦另定期審查也不用併案好再宣讀一次再報告一次討論事項第三案"},{"start":7589.673,"end":7592.958,"text":"我們暫保留 定期繼續審查我們請祕書宣讀協商結論"},{"start":7602.984,"end":7611.11,"text":"宣讀協商結論公司法第160條令定期繼續審查第165條令定期繼續審查第222條令定期繼續審查第235條之一及委員張祺凱等人所提附帶決議均令定期繼續審查第387條"},{"start":7623.559,"end":7633.149,"text":"定期審查 增訂第387條之一趙文 楊瓊英 邱毅英 蔡依儀 張啟凱 鄭天才 牛喜婷等6人所提修正動議通過通過附帶決議項第449條 照案通過 商業登記法"},{"start":7645.27,"end":7666.177,"text":"增訂第9條之一 趙偉 楊瓊英 邱毅英 蔡奕宇張綺凱 鄭天才 牛喜婷等6人所提修正動議通過 第37條章案通過 能源管理法部門條件修正草案5案及委員張綺凱等人所提第2條及新政第6條之一修正動議均定定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7671.168,"end":7688.373,"text":"包主席那個222剛剛的討論好那剛剛那個我們的修正動議那樂園委員也做提案222條是剛剛的討論是說照現行的條文不予修正好"},{"start":7689.915,"end":7709.971,"text":"那222條是不予修正但是我們因為公司法我們這一個部分我們是暫保留所以我們今天就先不予處理只是我們討論的方向是如此 好吧好 請教各位同仁照剛剛所宣讀的協商結論通過有沒有異議"},{"start":7711.414,"end":7735.016,"text":"沒有 來 本日稍等一下 拜託本日議程討論四項有關公司法部分條文修正草案部分的第12案委員牛許廷所提案387條之一以及第449條凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那麼本案不需由黨團協商"},{"start":7736.437,"end":7755.795,"text":"其餘另案呢其餘個案都定期繼續來做討論那本日議程討論的四項有關商業登記法第九條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那本案也是不需由這個黨團協商"},{"start":7757.857,"end":7783.147,"text":"接下來我們本日議程討論的第三案能管法能源管理法部分條文修正草案定期繼續審查院會討論的時候由本席來做說明繼續審查通過的條文相關的法制用語授權主席及議事人員來做整理本日所列的議程均已處理完畢現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":7785.836,"end":7786.457,"text":"好 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舉例來說保障他們假使被停權前的陳述權利停權他們會莫名其妙的好像接受了一個最嚴厲的處分那我們不能讓平台先砍帳號再讓外送員去跑那個漫長而且官僚的申訴流程所以希望在充分保障外送員對事前處分的陳述權利"},{"start":233.522,"end":254.971,"text":"那另外我們也覺得所有重大規則的改變都應該要讓他們知道這個要求其實非常的基本因為一般的勞僱關係中僱主單方訂定的工作規則如果修改導致勞工的工作條件變差就必須留意是不是有違反工作規則不利益變更禁止原則"},{"start":255.931,"end":283.902,"text":"但是對於外送人來說這點常常是很難的因為他們並沒有一個辦公室會議室沒有布告欄所以平台就單純的用一個APP推播一個通知就宣布了政策的改變那規則就改了那費率就降了就變了就是因為這樣子所以我們才更必須要在專法中強制平台要告訴外送人這些權益的改變演算法透明化"},{"start":284.802,"end":312.302,"text":"費率變更預告等等可以真正的被實現這些是我們訪談了很多外送員團體他們很期待的所以勞動部跟朝野的委員更應該集思廣益把這些機制看要怎麼樣把它寫進條文當中那當然勞動部現在的版本還在研修中之後也會送到立法院我們希望可以收到這樣子的版本是真正打破黑箱保障勞工的專法"},{"start":313.163,"end":333.417,"text":"那最後還是比較感性的去謝謝風吹雨打13年撐起了我們很多生活上的便利疫情期間更是城市裡面最勇敢的無名英雄謝謝每一位的付出外送人專訪讓我們未來這個會期可以仔細的審查讓尊嚴還有保障一併前行謝謝感謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言那接下來請立法院榮譽顧問賴香林"}]}},{"id":"165140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165140","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8ca05c335db3abbbe591e8053ceea3e5d7b15cd27f7aef3b91dc4b3d14b593074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:29:50 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詹克斯市長這邊向委員報告我們目前就戰術層級的部分我們在擴大微波通信車的構置那在這一次行政院的特別預算裡面我們也已經把衛星備援的這個部分加進來那後續在116到117的這個部分我們還會在全面檢討因應新式武器裝備它的傳輸需求所需要的通信裝備"},{"start":260.129,"end":277.107,"text":"各位看右下角像我们的全球之音这个是军售的本来就有卫星的频道本来就有国军的专用频道所以它的解析度是高解析度而且它已经可以传输率到500Mbps"},{"start":278.248,"end":300.141,"text":"这个跟我们国造的毫不关联现在我们比较关切的是陆军在地面用不管是宪兵的后备这个频道就像你刚刚讲的如果现有的成平时期你做训练都不成问题但是如果因为一旦两岸冲突发生部分的地面通讯站"},{"start":301.141,"end":326.805,"text":"固定台都没有了所以中继台你刚刚讲的那个是非常重要因为那个东西的条件下我们有主观客观我们有宏观围观我们不要用乐观指数你要做我们讲就是最坏的scenario的情况下我这个时候的支撑度还到什么时候这个时候不只是操作训练最主要是通讯的训练"},{"start":329.551,"end":336.157,"text":"現在看看我們的運用我們有連戰層級戰術層級連戰跟戰術層級國軍這是長期規劃而且數量控制通訊頻道都有做分割現在關心的就是戰鬥層級這個衛星剛剛您提到了衛星服務那個頻道請問是one web公司嗎是不是one web"},{"start":357.168,"end":375.002,"text":"包委員好 我是通知市長包委員您剛講的是哪一個我講的就是Wi-Fi沒有了目前OneWeb是用在民用的部分並沒有用在軍用的部分那軍用的部分是ST2 就是這個週星二號"},{"start":376.889,"end":399.805,"text":"但是你現在在這個預算編列裡面這是自通電軍的新式衛星租用服務新式衛星租用是特別預算裡面將來將來會新籌購一個高通量的衛星那是另外一型衛星並不是one wave我知道可是你一共兩年嘛52套加1000套嘛因為你並沒有地面站你只是地面接收點"},{"start":401.554,"end":414.112,"text":"是有兩個地面機動的接收站其他的都是接收點沒有錯對 其他是接收點那因為你這個網管中心只有兩套嘛是 兩個網管中心對 但是你在暫時的時候你確認你這1052套夠用嗎"},{"start":417.586,"end":433.451,"text":"目前我們是以最大量的需求來評估那將來會陸陸續續增加最大量的需求是指地面無人機在單位時間內使用的數量嗎"},{"start":434.847,"end":449.253,"text":"你不是比方讲你这个四万八千多加五这个多少量你最大的起飞量在使用的过程中间你要有东西足够support它是因为你现在编的是46亿元这是"},{"start":450.495,"end":471.046,"text":"装备设施现在建立租金可是两年后你要付钱陆军要编进预算就是成平时期不用卫星是正常时期那你就是中华电信远传你那个sim卡你要付钱的所以这个要早点规划你编的价值就乐观看"},{"start":471.886,"end":493.918,"text":"几万价次但是你在单位时间内可能使用的是数十价几百价但这个可是你每一价你都要付钱你到时候再换卡是比较来不及的所以提请大家注意成租的费用跟建立量能的初步投资到后面正常使用运用的时候"},{"start":494.966,"end":515.106,"text":"包括海军还有其他的优先他们讲的用的是C-band但是现在并不在我们国军分配给它的频段内那也是要用钱的所以在国防产业上我们支持无人机的国内制造但是大家都不告诉你用它的飞机现在买的是硬体到时候要花钱的"},{"start":515.606,"end":533.505,"text":"所以你传回来的影像解析度在某种情况下只能用语音通讯那你暂时的时候你用AI先建置内存某个区用哪些飞机因为乌克兰跟我们的状况不一样乌克兰城镇之间30公里城市之间100公里"},{"start":535.728,"end":558.07,"text":"通通除了公路以外就是丘陵地面看到的不是乌克兰的就是俄军的所以看了就打消耗型非常有效在台湾来讲目标识别尤其是高楼林地你无法从一个比方讲两百公尺高看到个东西就一头垂直下去所以在训练过程中的这个"},{"start":559.119,"end":583.898,"text":"场景的模拟这个我们以前很早就也玩过这个东西了这各种的系统我们都用过像我也在国外用过OneWeb控制系统我只是提醒成平时期所有通讯可靠的时候到暂时你的限制因素发生了你要预估你哪些能力不能发挥而不是装备不好是不能发挥这个要提醒注意"},{"start":586.482,"end":613.136,"text":"我们讲训练是过程 实用才是目的怎么样要把我们的准则教范 训场跟科目要融合这个才能满合实战的条件这个频率分配无人载具的活动空间含高度跟横距会不会产生单位跟单位之间的牵连或甚至说干扰到了因为分配的东西很有限如何在有限的资源下运用"},{"start":614.016,"end":634.358,"text":"以满足无人载具在不对称作战的需求这个是准则叫犯对应你不能用你的无人机去对抗他的无人机他数量太大但是在岛上有限条件下我们应该有优势但这个优势建立在你要有很多机动中信台而且假设GPS失效"},{"start":635.316,"end":655.574,"text":"Wi-Fi没有那就是刚刚你讲的要靠其他的卫星频道来提供这个时候数量会大幅减少所以你在写想定的时候要纳入你的作战的计划里面准则教范还有授权到什么地方假设是联机以下的看到就打那你的操作手就要负责任了创错目标了长官不扛的"},{"start":656.522,"end":682.747,"text":"如果是远程大型目标你可能连营长甚至旅长这种那这个远程的都是空军跟海军在用在海上那个长官来负责那现在就是无人机的干扰器属于独立系统会不会干扰到像特别强到金马祖外岛的运用有限运用下无人机不对称的作战需求那如何与防空识别整合为同步行"},{"start":683.666,"end":698.963,"text":"因为我们前两天就提了台湾之盾这里面有个很重要的问题就是参数资料库要纳入AI它才帮你判这个跟卖你无人机的厂商并没有关系所以尤其是风群攻击"},{"start":699.804,"end":715.807,"text":"敌方的风情里面一定有一个反辐射你再干扰他他就创你所以并不是全部是来对地面目标他有一个是反辐射的那这个时候我们如何反反制将来这个还有一段时间持续精进发展那中科院也会扮演一个最后的角色"},{"start":718.257,"end":734.037,"text":"这个是今天早上的我还是强调一下今天早上进来的目标比较少红色圈圈是中共的商船蓝色是我们的商船那因为刚刚提到了这个无人机在外岛部署做监控也是一个很重要的"},{"start":734.838,"end":737.92,"text":"这个整合进来才会成为啊这个未来的所谓的这个台湾呢"},{"start":763.646,"end":772.929,"text":"台湾之盾但台湾之盾整合上是一个很重要的目标也有很大的挑战我希望我们要大家来努力请部长做一点指导跟回应"},{"start":773.892,"end":798.839,"text":"我想台灣之盾的確的重點就是在於那個相關的整合所有的偵測器的整合然後到這個確定目標識別之後那或做一個適當的火力協調分配然後整合到所有的shoot整合所有的shoot然後來適時的來進行這個適當的一個回應我想這是整個我們現在的一個目標"},{"start":799.719,"end":828.838,"text":"那現在就是說要如何將所有的sensor整合在一起然後再利用AI的輔助來做適當的一個活力協調分配然後再運用各式的suites來進行回擊我想這個是是一個是一個是一個是一個挑戰那我們會陸續來努力來完成這樣子好謝謝部長這個大家都在努力但是挑戰也是非常艱鉅的要大家一起來克服"},{"start":829.738,"end":829.758,"text":"謝謝好 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院長好大家都會提到台北故宮百年北京也是故宮百年新聞上我們有看到就是這一次的北京故宮百年其實也邀請了很多台灣的媒體前去做訪問特別我們看到聯合報它的報導是這麼寫著北京掏出壓箱寶來紀念故宮百年"},{"start":47.655,"end":75.311,"text":"活動敘事是強調中華文化正統那特別呢他們就是強調說跟中華民族命運修其與共那也特別呢有民眾對聯合報記者表達他相信台灣的故宮文物最終會回歸祖國北京故宮的前院長他說堅信台北故宮的文物遲早會到紫禁城展出現任的院長也"},{"start":76.511,"end":91.258,"text":"說南遷文物中城海峽兩岸故宮博物館好 重點 它的策展區齁那個主題寫著遷台北反那我在想喔院長 你有什麼看法"},{"start":95.855,"end":107.585,"text":"兩岸各自表述那你怎麼表述不管在政治上或是在國際場合上一直都是這樣故宮的文物當然主要來自"},{"start":109.767,"end":123.284,"text":"紫金城的舊廠這是事實沒有錯可是因為在合法掙錢中華民國國民政府合法掙錢的執政時代來到台灣現在這些文物都登記中華民國的財產很好這個是帶無異議那"},{"start":126.507,"end":153.127,"text":"現在故宮的工作因為這批文物到台灣來100年故宮裡面75年在台灣跟台灣這片土地發生了很多連結那也是台灣的整個文化滋養的一部分所以這個部分的話我們還是會堅信就是博物館只要做好它文物管理然後做文物展覽教育推廣研究的工作我想這是我們現在目前最重要的任務至於"},{"start":154.349,"end":182.171,"text":"北京故宮他們的講法我們就是聽聽就好好那再請教一下院長您有沒有注意到中國有修訂他們的中華人民共和國文物保護法而且修訂之後是在今年的3月1號生效你對這部法有了解嗎我對對岸的法律並沒有太大的了解但是我知道有這個事情"},{"start":182.881,"end":212.317,"text":"那它的内容大概是说什么当然PPT都有写了对它当然对所谓的流失境外的文物那这个会牵涉到一个合法性的问题就是流失的文物的话它当初是被盗卖或是被盗取或是透过一个不正当的手段行为去取得文物那要求归还的话基本上来讲的话这是他们自己认为他们的潜力"},{"start":212.857,"end":228.358,"text":"但是故宮的文物的話是在我剛講合法政府合法掙錢的時代遷移到台灣那時候中華人民共和國還沒有成立所以基本上來講那北京故宮會去追討嗎我是說台北故宮會去追討北京故宮文物嗎"},{"start":229.519,"end":250.675,"text":"我們也沒有辦法做這樣的一個動作因為基本上來講管轄錢的問題我們現在也沒有辦法去透過所謂的國際法庭去追討北京故宮的文物所以北京故宮的話基本上來講的話也沒有辦法所謂的說去認定台灣的這些文物是他們的"},{"start":251.756,"end":267.43,"text":"那看起來故宮它其實已經成為統戰的一環所以呢我們在這個地方就是特別要提醒強調的就是我們台北故宮有什麼樣的一個論述這個很重要"},{"start":268.03,"end":295.524,"text":"那在這裡呢其實過去的八年歐美他們其實也通過了很多的實際行動逐步向外國就是去歸還那些非法走私戰爭掠奪的文物舉個例子像去年是牡丹社事件的150週年所以我們在前幾年呢有特別去幫忙在愛丁堡的牡丹社遺骨的返還那目前呢也安置在"},{"start":296.064,"end":323.03,"text":"我們台灣史前館的南科考古館我想院長應該了解這件事情那在這裡呢就是特別要提到畢竟我們的台北故宮已經100年那我覺得要創造自己的敘事自己的史觀然後要跟對岸的要做出區隔要有更多的一個本土的內容所以呢我看到像明年的2月故宮說要攜手"},{"start":323.53,"end":342.507,"text":"英國國家學術研究院以文化遺產的視角探討亞洲全球的秩序所以是講14到19世紀明清時期的東亞國際外交我很想了解這個內容有沒有跟什麼有關跟我們台灣本土有關"},{"start":345.488,"end":369.948,"text":"這是一個英國國家學術院的研究計畫那當然全球召集計畫是第一第一個獲得那個獎助的一個計畫那這個計畫的話它的主持人的話是由國外的學者來主導那故宮當然有一位同仁參與基本上來講的話他做一個學術上的研究雖然是在故宮這邊"},{"start":372.851,"end":380.797,"text":"這個禮拜幾辦閉門的會議但基本上來講的話是一個協助研究跟故宮並沒有直接的一個關聯"},{"start":382.214,"end":408.028,"text":"所以這個完全跟故宮沒有關係不能講沒有關係因為當然討論到整個東亞的DN政治的話當然會討論到中國討論到韓國討論到日本討論到台灣這是必然的但是這是一個獨立的研究其實我們從頭開始講就是一直在強調我們故宮要有很重要的一個本土論述"},{"start":409.755,"end":430.51,"text":"那即便是辦理這樣的一個活動如果我們都沒有辦法去產生自己的一個本土論述特別假設他講的是東亞國際外交那牡丹色事件是我們台灣第一個國際事件也是影響台灣命運很重要的一個事件那如果"},{"start":431.01,"end":439.897,"text":"在這個時候 他都沒有辦法被拿出來講沒有辦法被論述 那我不太理解我們故宮為什麼要在南院去推出這樣的展"},{"start":441.797,"end":470.386,"text":"跟委員報告這個展覽當然我講說是由英國的學術院贊助然後就是說召集人士都是外國的學者故宮有參與但是這一次在故宮的閉門會議裡面的話就是當然有浦中城有大川就是有幾位原住民的學者然後包括劉玉昌去談述就是台灣這一塊土地它在整個地緣政治上面還有族群的關係這個是有的那展覽的部分的話當然也會有"},{"start":470.646,"end":492.956,"text":"可是我跟委員報告就是故宮無意透過一個展覽的形式然後去牽扯到過多的地緣政治或是一個意識形態的議題因為這樣對一個博物館的運作的話基本上來講的話它會有小麻煩所以我們盡量去做一個協助客觀中立的一個展覽的呈現"},{"start":493.336,"end":515.867,"text":"如果在我們自己的地方做這樣的一個學術展還要去想到說會引來小麻煩我都覺得不太合適我希望院長能夠再思考一下但是我還是要特別的來強調因為故宮南院這幾年我們看到有很多關於本土的一個台灣內容"},{"start":519.149,"end":533.813,"text":"台北故宮這邊我們看得出來其實還是很保持它一定的一個定位跟特色但是我們可以看到我們南苑現在感覺上它的遊客量越來越多"},{"start":534.933,"end":559.406,"text":"那為什麼呢 因為它本土化的內容很接地氣的行銷方式變成了故宮南苑的成功方程式反觀 我們來看一下我們的台北故宮最近網路上也在討論很多人想說 欸 故宮很好 我要去那邊實習但是卻有人抱怨說 故宮太奴了"},{"start":560.146,"end":576.474,"text":"放棄 謝謝 連一點交通費都沒有那我覺得 因為我們現在故宮是我們整個博物館的領頭羊 洞見觀瞻大家會仿效 好就仿效那我不曉得說 院長您怎麼想"},{"start":579.201,"end":600.778,"text":"這個問題的話我想我們會跟教育部來合作因為實習生的話牽涉到教育部然後學校的一個實習政策當然可以提供更多的福利的話是一個好事可是因為會牽動到其他的相關的就是不同的博物館或不同的實習制度這個部分的話我們會來研究評估"},{"start":601.423,"end":609.788,"text":"我希望給我一個報告好不好好那在這裡呢我最後想要關心一下就是故宮有沒有做族語的導覽故宮的族語導覽的話的確是沒有"},{"start":617.503,"end":643.813,"text":"但是你們哒啦啦的在夜報上面寫說與客委會合作二十則客語語音導覽客委會合作的話基本上是有因為是客委會他們客家文化中心他們提供那園民會合作沒有他們提供資源請故宮協助去做客語的導覽好那我現在要講的就是有法源耶我們的國家語言法治安法的第七條音"},{"start":646.154,"end":658.044,"text":"強化公共服務資源及營造友善使用環境原住民族語言發展法第8條應在公共場所推動使用原住民族語言以營造原住民語言使用環境"},{"start":660.993,"end":683.533,"text":"好 那這個部分的話 我們來跟那個言明中心來研議看看是不是可以比照客戶媽中心而且我們很傷心耶你的導覽系統 華語 台語 客語 英語 日語 韓語西 法 德 澳 泰 粵 印尼 手語連手語都有 口述影像都有就是沒有國家語言法裡面包含的主語內容耶"},{"start":685.441,"end":699.419,"text":"我不曉得我們的故宮一定要這樣子嗎那麼樣的一個中華化嗎這個部分的話我們跟文化部我們來評估跟那個園民會來評估看看怎麼樣處理"},{"start":701.34,"end":716.682,"text":"我希望啊如果你們說很少其實台語客語你看租界的北部縣區一個人台語一個客語五個華語是五萬多雖然很少你們還是做了那國外的語言"},{"start":718.004,"end":742.75,"text":"你们也是都比照那些大国大族你们也都做了所以我觉得在这个时候看到台湾原住民族语言在国家语言里面缺席我觉得这个部分要深切讨论可以改进希望把改进方案可以提到办公室来好吗谢谢院长谢谢吴立华委员执行"}]}},{"id":"165152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c39cc7770d94e95dab96356aa020e99bb422b881fe7d28f452cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:25:26 - 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真的就被停權了"},{"start":178.547,"end":203.785,"text":"一個受害者一個辛辛苦苦在工作的人送達目的地結果呢因為他等不上自己的火車抓不好時間最後受害的是誰外送員當時要開一個記者會才能夠讓他恢復這些都是平台業者在剛剛所講的數據當中沒有講的今天我們看到平台業者說時薪270"},{"start":206.578,"end":219.598,"text":"說這些人賺到了四萬五賺到了六萬所以他看到了他們的薪資很高就可以片面的調降薪資是這樣嗎這沒有充分的溝通啊"},{"start":220.703,"end":248.175,"text":"所以我要講的是在21世紀在如此民主的中華民國我們還有看到這些核心的勞動者卻因為制度的規範不足長期面臨報酬不穩定工作風險高還有勞動保障不夠明顯這樣的結構性問題啊勞動部就說我們用衛生指引就可以顧及他的這些職業安全顧及他的勞動權益"},{"start":250.816,"end":272.836,"text":"今天我們為什麼站在這裡我要跟大家講今天如此推動外送員專法要立法的是誰是平台是平台讓整個外送員專法加速進行推進為什麼因為剝削啊"},{"start":274.042,"end":294.871,"text":"一手拿著所有的餐飲業者的錢一手拿著外送員剝削的錢我們當然要保障所有消費者不要被亂漲價所以這個過程可以更穩健可以更謹慎但是這個過程6年了"},{"start":296.501,"end":324.443,"text":"6年了台中的代表說他6年前就在這裡發聲到現在6年了你告訴我再冷我也要呼籲勞動部你乾脆就把民進黨的黨團版本單稱是我們現在行政院的院版吧趕緊來審吧再等一個月再等三個月我想請教就教於現場所有的夥伴現場所有的官員現場所有的媒體"},{"start":325.714,"end":352.131,"text":"跟你說 你再被剝削一個月兩個月版本就出來 你願意嗎對不起 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謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長請蕭院長郭院長好"},{"start":19.415,"end":43.974,"text":"院長好我想短短七分鐘巴黎羅浮宮發生的這個竊案剛剛有很多委員都很關心我們有看到其實台灣媒體也直接放在頭版但在頭版的下面作為教文委員會我們就非常高興看到有我們的故宮的一個靈屍竊的紀錄這個我想大家應該都非常榮耀就是我們保護了我們的國寶"},{"start":44.975,"end":58.216,"text":"但是仔細進去一看這個內容讓人非常的緊張為什麼呢他說為什麼我們75年維持零失竊紀錄呢有一個關鍵在我們故宮有四隻狗"},{"start":59.415,"end":85.821,"text":"四隻狗故宮編制了四名警犬晚上八點到凌晨四點互相輪班同時間兩隻警犬巡邏也就是說呢晚上人帶狗十二點以後呢就是狗帶人有時候警衛還會解開鏈子讓警犬當先鋒這個 顧院長應該有看到這個報導嘛對不對 我看您都微笑了媒體的報導基本上來講我不曉得是從哪裡聽來的啦"},{"start":89.586,"end":112.369,"text":"所以這個沒有經過故宮的同意啊這不是我們官方的所以你們到底有沒有這幾隻狗啊有有嘛所以那是甚麼有人洩漏資訊嗎所以這不實報導嗎也不是不實報導事實上我們有四隻狗可是四隻行險但是這個新聞的話並不是一個我們官方的新聞沒關係啦 院長我想喔"},{"start":113.03,"end":138.949,"text":"故宮一百一十四年度的預算北院安全管理維護四千四百萬南院五千萬兩個院區加起來將近是一億元結果故宮如果真的是守護安全的是四隻狗的話那是不是我們這個安全維護費變成我們要來討論警犬的飼養訓練這個費用四隻警犬要不然我們變四十隻故宮不要講七十五年七百五十年都不會有問題我想難道是這樣嗎"},{"start":143.012,"end":158.214,"text":"基本上來講的話過去在傳統就是說監控系統保全系統不夠完整的時代基本上來講透過警犬去做保安保全這是有的所以過去家家戶戶養狗"},{"start":159.275,"end":180.803,"text":"可是現在不養狗了現在2025年嘛現在都是用科技化的監控系統狗都有機器狗了對吧所以我想故宮看到這個報導您說這個故宮不是只靠這四條狗你們有沒有發額外的新聞啊消息啊宣發讓大家知道不是這樣不然剛剛那個報導真的很像是邀請人家來測試這四條狗呢院長"},{"start":182.014,"end":203.17,"text":"你是不是澄清一下吧對不對沒關係我會後希望請故宮的同仁啦澄清一下不然這樣的報導院長看起來也不是很認可啦結果變成說讓大家有點誤會我覺得也不好這變成國際新聞還得了啊故宮75年鎮館的這個神獸竟然是四條狗"},{"start":204.051,"end":223.751,"text":"當然我想這可能是誤會我們很具體的來討論安全措施絕對不是這個樣子所謂的三層防護的話就外圍防護外圍防護的話就是除了狗之外的話當然我們有編制的警察然後我們有保全另外的話就是管轍的維護我們沒有"},{"start":227.395,"end":244.505,"text":"就是說無漏洞的一個監控系統他無漏洞的話我盡量謝謝院長您在這裡講您可能還是要請同仁再多花一點力氣去向外去多做說明否則這個銅牆鐵壁只剩下四條口這個印象傳出去真的不太好沒關係"},{"start":246.046,"end":265.023,"text":"現在最主要的話是做那個什麼危險物件的一個嗅覺那這顯然你們的 顯然故宮跟媒體之間的關係是要再更通暢的否則這樣的一個新聞我們覺得還是需要做多一點的這個額外後續的處理啦好不好那我們更具體的來討論"},{"start":266.764,"end":285.374,"text":"那這個羅浮宮的師妾啊其實有這個要做一些模擬啦那假設接下來要做一些模擬的訓練因為剛剛很多委員也有提到那現在故宮北院南院正在千年神域跟萬年甲子嘛也先感謝跟恭喜但是假設我們要做模擬演練會不會影響展期啊"},{"start":287.335,"end":312.773,"text":"模擬演練的話我們都在用休館跟晚上的時間來進行所以為什麼我們對那四條狗的新聞很緊張就是大家說只有四條狗現在又不能印象展旗現在有一個大好時機所以請故宮要趕快多做一點這個相關的訊息的轉達另外這一次的羅浮宮又可以看到法國警方甚至軍方迅速趕到現場假設我們先不管展旗的問題"},{"start":313.473,"end":336.428,"text":"之後不影響展期的情況去做模擬或者是演練請問院長警方甚至軍方有沒有在緊急狀況下協助故宮進行安全防護的機制我們跟管區跟分局還有跟那個憲兵隊就是所謂軍方的話我們是跟憲兵隊我們都有一個合作的簽署的一個"},{"start":337.55,"end":345.528,"text":"備忘錄他們都會來參與我們的協防那之後這個入侵演練是不是會一併納入軍警進行安全防護的測試呢"},{"start":348.41,"end":376.549,"text":"在軍警的部分的話基本上來講我們在國土安防的演練的時候軍警校都會參與現在是防盜 現在是防盜演練防盜的話我們會同仁跟轄區好 評估一下然後因為你總不能假設真的是壞事發生了不能只靠狗去追嘛 對不對我們要大家一起來幫忙柯委員報告因為狗現在是暴獵物徵收然後巡邏然後甚至變成故宮的一個"},{"start":378.75,"end":402.407,"text":"可愛的神獸我們都認同啦但是那個新聞給人家一個不太安全的印象好不好這個請故宮要處理啦那另外這個剛剛提到安全評估這個您有表示啊要做這個不管是三層防護啦強化啦防暴玻璃啦安全評估什麼時候會進行什麼時候可以做升級項目的這個預估完成這個我們隨時都在進行每一次部長"},{"start":402.827,"end":417.62,"text":"那最新的一次會是在什麼時候我們在11月6號進行過今天下午會再一次演練10月10號會進行第二次演練17號的話會進行南北宴的一個前宴的演練"},{"start":418.26,"end":442.765,"text":"好 謝謝院長這個接下來真的是要請大家多多關注這個國寶真的是要靠各位來守護另外也和您討論故宮正在進行百年願慶我們非常關心熱門景點的狀態北市熱門景點的前十名第一名是西門町第二名台北101第三名松山文創園區"},{"start":444.265,"end":470.024,"text":"還有華山 台灣科學教育館 政治動物園等等我也很愛去故宮排在第十名 造訪人次沒有突破百萬 98萬院長 我覺得這個本席認為對故宮百年來講 這有一點警訊這個院慶的活動都沒有辦法再造高潮高峰明年後年 故宮還有沒有辦法再去有更多吸引人的亮點"},{"start":472.464,"end":492.845,"text":"跟委員報告 因為今年的話 我們預期的目標會達成 沒有問題很好 院長 那我打斷你我們已經幫你們整理了 目前的這個 一共到九月份事實上一月 三月 八月 九月 這四個月份的外籍參訪人數是不如去年預期的"},{"start":493.786,"end":507.436,"text":"所以如果我們真的要來超越去年同期的KPI啊已經有一半是不達標囉我們百年生日啊結果我們的外賓來訪竟然還更低為什麼會這樣啊這個"},{"start":510.247,"end":529.617,"text":"故宮沒有生殖檢討嗎你說要會超越可是我們看到的45%的月份是甚至比去年還低現在是百年怨氣跟委員報告就是因為故宮外籍人士的參訪的話跟入境的人數消長是會有一個互動的關係我想這個理由"},{"start":531.954,"end":547.64,"text":"是 院長入境人口多的話那當然就是比例會比較高一點但是 不好意思喔入境 我們現在已經脫離COVID囉這個入境的人口一直都還是有在增加啊所以我想已經不能再用這個入境人口的問題來比囉"},{"start":548.86,"end":561.647,"text":"就算您剛剛有說十分之一的人都來故宮那就要增加我想我們手上有一本書這個百年故宮百話我想故宮這個院長也知道裡面有訪問你"},{"start":564.669,"end":590.368,"text":"對 很棒那裡面呢 你有說啊說您在訪談的時候說你是過渡期院長但是現在留下來了你覺得很高興我們也很替你高興啊但是裡面你有說啊你繼續坐在這個位置上你告訴太太說我想我是幸運的院長您是幸運的啦 我們都理解啊對故宮來講是幸運的嗎這樣子的人數你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":591.714,"end":611.634,"text":"還是是不是有人告訴你說哎呀故宮啊做到剛好就好了啦這樣的人數我當然不滿意對嘛百年宴慶耶每一個博物館每一個空間都有它最合宜的容流人數並不是說把它塞滿的話就是最好所以故宮最適合人少一點您現在的意思是這樣嗎不是這個樣子不是這個樣子好不好"},{"start":613.275,"end":640.171,"text":"這個院長我們還是一起來努力還有幾個議題談到這個展覽內容其實這本故宮百話野島剛先生所寫的院長是本書的受訪者之一您剛剛也知道裡面有說這是博物館專業的時代你本身也有藝術行政的專業背景專業的故宮由專業人來領導我們都非常感動以院長的背景應該十分了解策展人是一個正式的角色對吧"},{"start":641.132,"end":670.472,"text":"任務有構思展覽理念挑選藝術品作品運送展場設計行銷推廣預算甚至布展跟策展但是我們到這個參訪的時候我們想要了解一下說故宮是屬於這個二級機關應該是所有博物館裡面有最充足最落實專業分工的結果我們進一步去詢問說故宮到底有多少位專職策展人的時候院長您知道嗎"},{"start":671.793,"end":689.369,"text":"故宮的答覆竟然是零人啊竟然全部都是由公務員或教育任用的人來兼任科委員報告這個邏輯思維不對因為所有的博物館都是這樣都是策展人的host curator的話都是自己的研究人員來擔任"},{"start":690.683,"end":705.479,"text":"Gas Curator的话会找外面的人但是Host Curator的话本身都是研究人员研究人员的话可能是文物的研究人员可能是教育推广的研究人员可能是修复的人员他都可能做都来"},{"start":705.999,"end":734.676,"text":"你一边又要修复一边又要策展你一边做行政一边接待外宾也要策展我们甚至了解到策展人里面有人一年光是一年就策划六档展览他一边还要做其他所有的事情典藏修复研究分析那你刚刚说所有的不好意思主席这个时间要给我一下因为这是人权的问题不要让大家有这种血汗怨的感觉为什么呢我们给大家看一下那个院长你刚刚说大家都这样有吗大家有都这样吗"},{"start":735.731,"end":750.06,"text":"有專任的策展人啊有全部都是用host嗎有全部都是用兼任嗎NO NO NO NO現在又NO了這個聘用專任的話專任策展人啊聘用專任就是自己裡面的管員"},{"start":751.269,"end":768.445,"text":"不是 這個管員他如果聘進來是策展人的話他就是主要專職策展他其他行政事務可以不用做那麼多跟委員報告如果一個策展人不用做研究他怎麼策展啊他有研究的背景啊什麼研究的背景"},{"start":770.466,"end":789.918,"text":"所以您是說所以院長您在這裡正式的懷疑這些策展人都不是專用專任我跟委員報告就是說外面的現代的美術館他很容易找一個策展人去策劃一個展覽這個展覽的話跟館內的展覽沒有關係對不起院長我還是要打斷你這是專任策展人"},{"start":790.658,"end":811.264,"text":"這是專任策展人我們這裡有一點對 我在國美館待過您現在已經離開了這樣的敘述方式不對我現在還對他們很清楚了解這樣的敘述方式不對因為專聘的專任就是館員院長其實我是來幫忙的"},{"start":811.744,"end":840.159,"text":"因為我們是真的有私下了解到其實真的有同仁的工作過重你們應該是有機會考慮專任策展人的角色這個部分我是希望院長承諾對於人力進行盤點對於缺乏人力的部分我們是不是不分黨派我們一起向行政院來爭取跟委員報告如果故宮裡面有一個專業策展人他只做策展"},{"start":840.959,"end":864.78,"text":"他不做研究 不做其他事情不好意思喔 院長我沒有這個意思喔我沒有這個意思喔院長我沒有這個意思喔你們現在的是什麼他主要的工作是典藏 保存 修護 研究 分析衍生內容 創意 加值 展覽 設計 觀眾服務學術交流 教育推廣 數位學習國際合作和其他有關事項以及配合業務需要辦理的行政業務相關活動發表職務有關是學術研究"},{"start":867.742,"end":897.211,"text":"之於他還要來協助專業策展我們講的是專任策展人他並非不能做其他的事是說他以策展為主要的專任院長我想我們不要在這裡做這樣子的一種文字上的我沒有那個意思所以不要誤會我好不好我希望院長可不可以兩週內提出故宮人力盤點的報告以書面方式提供給我們我們一起來爭取好不好"},{"start":897.591,"end":912.749,"text":"可以这个部分的话我可以请我们馆的研究人员他们去思考什么样是一个最好的方式至于说所谓的一个人一年策集展的话基本上来讲的话那是协助策展"},{"start":913.65,"end":934.899,"text":"因為策展是一個團隊如果一個人策展的話基本上來講你要做一個展覽沒關係那你器物要找誰你書畫要找誰院長你文獻要找誰都是一個現在北院一共有42位南院有11位53位的研究人員都在輪流擔任策展者沒有錯那這些人的工作"},{"start":935.359,"end":963.499,"text":"我是希望具體提出希望故宮來討論一下當他們專心在策展的時候你總有一個主策展人吧你總有一個幾個主策展人嘛那你協助策展的人那平常的工作是不是能夠協調一下去減少他們的行政輸入的負擔我想我們的任務是一致的我們要不只您幸福啊故宮也要幸福故宮的專業人員也要幸福這您同意吧"},{"start":964.209,"end":984.129,"text":"我同意 我同意但是这样的保管运作机制的话其实全世界都有院长 是不是委员有说你们盘点人力做一份报告给他办公室你们再来讨论说关于我们所谓的人力部署应该做怎样的调整好不好好 谢谢主席好 谢谢院长再麻烦谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c1b74319b7f585f8691e8053ceea3e5d7422b881fe7d28f4543b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:57:22 - 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麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":10.182,"end":15.146,"text":"部長早部長我們今天特別安排這樣子的一個議題主要是因為我們未來會投入非常高額的預算在無人載具上面不管是無人機無人艇或者其他相關的無人載具他也是未來一個很重要的趨勢當然我們如果提升自己本身的量能或者籌備足夠的這樣子的一些裝備也好或者"},{"start":37.263,"end":42.826,"text":"攻擊武器也好其實可能也是必須的可是我們還是應該要先很清楚的知道我們到底要如何提升他的作戰能力因為國軍建制無人機是為了作戰而不是為了要建立廠商的產能或者要創造市場規模"},{"start":56.412,"end":61.095,"text":"因為剛剛有提到包括紙製的因為如果說已經拿來做這樣的一個可以做無人載具那他不管是潮濕或什麼對他應該影響不大我們希望我們應該是全面性的去理解所有的他可能"},{"start":74.421,"end":91.107,"text":"它可以產生的這樣子的一個不管材質也好因為像之前在攻擊俄羅斯的那個軍艦那個無人艇其實它的造價越來越低它就是因為它的本身的材質也一直在精進當中所以我們如果要做這種大"},{"start":91.747,"end":114.765,"text":"大量的產製然後作為我們未來非常重要的一個採購的一個方向我想其實包括它的價格都是一個很重要的考量因為我們想要打造地獄無人機的地獄型的戰場嘛所以其實這個對我們來說價格也是一個非常重要的因為我們還是希望國防預算可以好好的去珍惜那今天在報告裡面針對國軍構建無人機部隊的部分"},{"start":118.905,"end":123.127,"text":"近年國軍除了在113年到117年他分別籌貨了3200多架這樣子的無人機這個都是軍用商規的總經費高達56億8798萬那114年又向美軍採購了將近千餘架不管是對人或是"},{"start":144.355,"end":151.86,"text":"就是人員殺傷型的還是反裝甲型的大概也有17他的那個絕標金額也將近53億左右因為這是軍購的然後這個也大概有千餘價另外"},{"start":160.706,"end":178.654,"text":"我們軍備局在今年又公告下一輪有將近五萬架有四萬多軍用商規無人機的標案甲乙丙丁物五類無人機規劃在一百一十五年到一百一十六年兩年的時間要採購標案金額上看新台幣五百億"},{"start":180.003,"end":199.725,"text":"所以加上過去國軍也已經委託中科院製造的或者像美軍購的各型中原型的軍規型無人機例如紅准或者瑞淵或者MQ-9再加上各軍種單位比如說像正戰局也都有自行購置很多的無人機所以它整體的數量"},{"start":201.187,"end":217.931,"text":"非常龐大就我們剛剛講的這樣他的數量是非常龐大的所以我想請教這幾輪無人機的建制他的主要目標是為了迅速要達到一個數量還是要取代過去我們所購買的商規商商軍規的無人機目前這麼大量的採購我們的目的是什麼"},{"start":224.526,"end":240.036,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們現在要採購五型大概就是分成沉浸式的投彈式的中程的自殺式跟小型自殺式還有濱海艦艇型的這五款的無人機那都是要為了符合我們的防衛的一個作戰需求"},{"start":240.936,"end":244.938,"text":"對部長因為我們有打裝編訊用嘛你今天如果要採購這樣我們剛剛有提到我們過去也有採購很多那現在未來要採購的也非常多而且在短期之內你要採購的數量很多當然有兼徵有供給或者你有其他的陸用海上各個運用的模式不一樣沒有錯可是我們要問的是你要這麼大的數量在很短期的時間之內那你的庫儲"},{"start":270.231,"end":271.354,"text":"你的所有的準則叫飯都已經就緒了嗎"},{"start":276.687,"end":301.427,"text":"準則交換的部分是不是由作機師來說委員好我是作機師次長同委員剛剛所提示的事項就是先從作戰運用需求作戰運用規劃來去做相關的籌購那同時間我們在作戰需求裡面把作戰運用規劃完了之後會針對需求的事項比如說作戰運用的部署部隊的編組編制那以及他配付"},{"start":301.927,"end":324.38,"text":"那以及用分批採購的方式來去逐步建立都完成了嗎是 都已經有相關的規劃分批逐步是什麼意思報比說 尖針型的 它做尖針的運用從剛剛報我們有連戰 然後戰術跟戰鬥不同層級那並且考量俄烏戰爭當中現在每個月大概都要18萬架以上的無人機在戰場上的運用"},{"start":325.14,"end":352.337,"text":"所以我們是要彌補數量我們這麼短期要花到500億的預算其實主要是要彌補那個數量是不是你的意思是不是這樣我們是從基礎開始建置也包含考量到剛剛所報告的我們也考量國內國外的現有的科技上的發展以及我們國內可自製籌貨的方式來去逐步建置所以可以看到從前幾年從不管是偽製的這個中科院的"},{"start":352.517,"end":354.64,"text":"我知道我的問題你可能沒有清楚我剛剛說打樁邊訊用嘛你一次買那麼多因為其實無人機跟科技產品一樣他跟手機一樣今天你如果一次買太多他可能兩年後就要淘汰了"},{"start":368.84,"end":371.561,"text":"因為它不斷有新的它就是一個科技的產品而且現在不斷創新它是很迅速的所以其實我們現在要問的是你一次編這麼多的預算買這麼大的量到底是什麼目的因為我們目前我們的國軍大概是五萬的人力你扣掉庫儲的部分你作戰的目的"},{"start":390.191,"end":405.562,"text":"到底要建置到多大的規模這個國防部自己必須要知道啊那你才知道要買多少啊我先請教一下小型無人機是屬於裝備還是彈藥幫我們把它歸類為消耗品什麼叫消耗品是裝備還是彈藥是彈藥是彈藥你煎蒸的呢煎蒸型的是裝備所以有裝備跟彈藥嗎那你的配比是怎麼樣"},{"start":418.13,"end":427.599,"text":"按照作戰剛剛有跟委員報告前面說明的三個階段他會依照三個階段不同的我們簡單來說因為你有裝備跟彈藥因為如果是美軍他是把它當成彈藥可是我們也買了非常多艱增型的所以其實就國軍哪些部隊會需要有艱增的任務"},{"start":443.459,"end":446.701,"text":"你需要多少編制因為我們現在要知道說你要買這麼多那你的編制到底是什麼你到底編好了沒我們現在結合有編制好了嗎這個是隨著整體的規劃按照裝備籌貨來去建置裝備編程的期程跟著部隊編程的期程你怎麼不是先先編你有編制以後才知道你要用多少啊你現在是說你先籌貨了以後才去編現在"},{"start":472.537,"end":483.061,"text":"包委員那個針對小型無人 尖針型無人機的部分我們就編裝的角度來看主要是從班以上的單位從中間操作的人我們賦予他另外一項專長並不是再多編一個人"},{"start":488.143,"end":490.824,"text":"因為我知道你是賦予他專長可是有多少人會具備這樣的專長或需要這樣的專長剛剛你說每一個人都要因為那是天方夜譚你現在要訓練到每一個人都要你現階段你根本沒有辦法達到而且你買的東西不是讓每個人訓練用的所以這是我們希望你把它分清楚第二個"},{"start":510.453,"end":527.466,"text":"就是我們如果說編製所以你編製好了嗎如果你這樣算編製好了那可能可以再到辦公室做一些初步的有個概念跟委員報告入軍推人人都是無人機"},{"start":528.527,"end":545.096,"text":"操作員這個概念只是希望大家去學會但是就編裝的角度而言我們賦予特定的兵特定的操作人員他的專長那如果是屬於高端的比如影像分析員的這個部分我們就會在檢討編裝裡面賦予他情報之類另外所需的員額這個部分是我們在做"},{"start":550.859,"end":555.68,"text":"無人機發展過程當中我們知道啦因為我們現在就是說你在很短期你買那麼大量你到底是要給誰用怎麼用所以我們要確切知道的是這個部分因為你花了很多錢嘛那到時候我們現在就是像剛剛提到的如果像無人機它就跟手機一樣它是跟它是科技產品它不斷的翻新它有很多新的而且我們現在供給型的也好偵監型的也好它很容易受到干擾"},{"start":579.747,"end":582.889,"text":"在二屋戰場上面其實最清楚的就是這個部分原來說很好的有非常強大功能的很快他馬上干擾以後完全沒有用他全部都掉下來所以我們買的到底要因應什麼樣的戰場環境要提升什麼樣的作戰能力是我們需要去做準備的我再請教一個"},{"start":599.259,"end":602.802,"text":"就這個部分如果說你一口氣買太多因為我們知道你現在到底要怎麼配置啊你說短中長期那為什麼要買這樣的數量我們看不出來你是怎麼樣去做配置的你如果是供給型的你至少就像可能像紅準啊或像我們標槍一樣啊你會有什麼樣的配置嘛不是每個人都會用對不對所以在這個部分包委員這個部分先跟你說明一下這個我們需求量的這個問題是跟"},{"start":627,"end":637.622,"text":"美方已經針對我們整個防衛作案構想裡面各階段各單位所需要的消耗量先做一個規劃 這第一點為什麼是美方幫我們做規劃"},{"start":639.028,"end":667.237,"text":"不是美方幫我們最規劃雙方針對台海作戰環境的作戰需求我們做過評估之後我們去確定這個數量但是第二點我們要講的是策略的部分因應二屋戰爭這種我們已經發現他的確會快速的喪失的效能這個部分我們在預約的部分未來會把他的裝備疊帶以及其他必要能夠快速更換的這些零件來改變他裝備的性能是納在我們後續的"},{"start":667.657,"end":671.078,"text":"所以我在這裡先提醒因為我們一次買那麼多你雖然是分年獲得可是你如果一次五年那你第五年拿到的雖然是看起來是新的可是它規格就是五年前的這是我們第一個要提醒的第二個就是無人機它不僅僅是機體它電池也是主要的一個重要成本我想要請教目前我們無人機是怎麼搭配電池當你在採購的時候電池怎麼搭配"},{"start":697.796,"end":717.675,"text":"跟委員來做一個報告剛剛委員的指導是非常正確就是因為疊代所以我們的採購都是以兩年像我們蘋果手機一年有疊代一次像今年17出來所以我們就是依照委員你這個想法我們也知道科技的創新是日新月異我們關係到疊代所以我們兩年會約"},{"start":719.156,"end":724.421,"text":"那至於每年的得標的廠商要對我們去做新的提升現在是兩年你說500億這個因為你迅速買很多可是你剛剛我們第一個提到的是113年到177年籌貨的那些它就是五年我現在問的是還包括因為我們現在是先提醒就是它疊帶其實是很迅速的如果你把它用在你不能一次買太多如果它疊帶"},{"start":742.857,"end":746.561,"text":"結果你一次買500億兩年以後它已經是落後的你又要再編500億1000億來買嗎這個我們目前希望先看到這個部分如果你知道它是迭代的它是一個科技的它軟體需要隨時更新它可能需要受到很多干擾條件你必須要再怎麼樣的去加強改善的時候其實你一次買太多的量其實是不對所以我們在這裡"},{"start":768.381,"end":791.537,"text":"剛剛提到的我們再把電池說完我們在搭配的時候你買無人機電池怎麼搭配電池都已經我們的標約裡面都要把它做一個公版的一個標準化所謂的公版標準化是民用的嗎民用 軍用不是 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有請蕭院長林委員長"},{"start":14.574,"end":27.578,"text":"院長早今年是故宮的百年院慶同時當然也是我們故宮北院院區的60歲生日那60年歷經這個數次的這個擴建故宮才成為今天這樣的樣子"},{"start":32.379,"end":57.668,"text":"那實際上光是面對這個借林三十年以上的建築我們就要必須付出額外的心力來維護整修更何況是一個六十年的這個具有這個文化就典藏全人類的這個文化資產的這個故宮博物院所以我想院長因為您待過很多的博物院服務過那我想你對博物館"},{"start":60.329,"end":86.152,"text":"這個建築一定有相當的了解所以故宮北越這個建築那麼的老舊那像剛剛我提到的經過數次的擴建它新舊建築間都會有一些留聲縮縫或者是說多年使用還有地震的影響那這個聲縮縫它那個防水的措施以及它那個樓板部位的這個防水層它就會不同程度的損壞所以"},{"start":88.173,"end":94.62,"text":"絕對無法去根絕漏水的問題所以我們來看看故宮建物過往一些不堪使用的紀錄2015年鎮館電梯"},{"start":99.252,"end":127.289,"text":"鎮管的電梯坑滲水後來又遇到風災鎮管的三樓也漏水2017年全台的豪雨鎮管嚴重的漏水我們在新故宮第三次計畫修訂本當中甚至有提到鎮管的耐震結構已達50年的使用年限文物典藏庫防耐震的不足對文物的典藏產生嚴重的威脅"},{"start":128.61,"end":156.735,"text":"我要請教說那這些漏水問題以及這個耐震的疑慮那我們今年有哪些的改善那是否現在還有漏水的事件那十年期的故宮計畫已經編了第九年的經費那請問院長評估至今到底完成度到今年至今的完成度有幾成那未來我們還有怎麼樣的執行策略 院長"},{"start":158.387,"end":181.998,"text":"跟委員報告漏水的問題是因為葉導剛採訪我的時候我講我看他說你看那個建物那邊的塑膠布因為會漏水所以有一些可以抓漏的可以處理的部分我們都時時刻刻只要有下雨的話我們就會去檢視有沒有漏水點"},{"start":183.118,"end":204.246,"text":"但是有一些部分的話就是沒有辦法因為它要經過一段時間的下移然後水泥層飽和度高的時候它就會滲漏這個沒有辦法去找出一個根源所以如果說真的要做的話就要把屋頂層的防水層slab通通打掉重新做對 就是要大修"},{"start":205.066,"end":227.204,"text":"所以這個就是放到我們的新故宮計畫的政管整建的工程裡面那以新故宮計畫來講的話它每年的達成率的話都超過九成到達九成五以它的達成率以目前來講的話超過五成左右就整個新故宮計畫因為它有三個子計畫很難去講"},{"start":229.305,"end":244.793,"text":"但是如果通称的话大概如果讲的话我说新故宫计划的话完成率的话应该是五成因为南苑的国宝馆的话大概四成六四成八然后北苑这边的话基本上来讲的话大概六成左右"},{"start":245.353,"end":261.571,"text":"好 那我想請院長責成這個業務單位是不是列一個表單就是想載這個故宮北院軟硬體設施需要更新修整的項目交給本辦那同時我想也要給教文委員會所有的委員"},{"start":262.512,"end":290.545,"text":"那因為我們再來這個會期又是預算會期無論是院長您還是說整個整體我們教育文化委員會的委員我們都必須要很清楚的知道存放且展覽重要文物的故宮它究竟有哪些地方不堪使用真的需要經費來幫忙那我們朝野立委會不分黨派全手一起來支持這樣的改革所以是不是一周內可以來把這個表單給我們每個委員"},{"start":292.186,"end":304.32,"text":"跟委員報告沒有問題 因為那個工程的整建的話是我們黃務院長來主政 也可能請黃務院長跟委員這邊做一個說明或是辦一個訪視都可以"},{"start":306.582,"end":326.136,"text":"再來想要請教這個院長是說因為近年其實這個颱風季這樣子這個強降雨那遇到這個故宮其實就是用塑膠布這種陽春的方式來防聖水那可見故宮北院確實大整修真的很急迫"},{"start":327.077,"end":346.088,"text":"那以前這個陳其南院長主政的時候他有提出過這個北院全面整修三年讓文物遷移到南院展出的這個規劃可是當初這樣的一個想法有遭受到立法院或社會各界的一些壓力跟批評"},{"start":347.088,"end":375.606,"text":"那如今我想是蕭院長你來主政我本期是希望你能勇敢承擔下來就是說今年五月在南院二館的這個上兩點以下院長你就有表示說二館完工後那南院的樓地板面積就會跟北院相當那未來北院如果進行整修的話那南院就可以擔負起這個文物展出的任務所以我想要請院長說明的是說"},{"start":377.128,"end":389.404,"text":"針對故宮北院的全面整修那時間點會落在什麼時候那規模跟策略跟陳其南院長的計畫會有哪些不同"},{"start":392.52,"end":413.735,"text":"跟委員報告因為時空環境不同因為現在的當然沒有錯就新故宮計畫的整個進程的話就是說我自己跟同仁在討論上面的話就是有一些節奏上的要思考的面向就現在的故宮的第二展覽館已經開館了"},{"start":415.736,"end":430.862,"text":"但是第二展覽馆的能量是没有办法完全承担故宫正馆目前的能量所以要在故宫南叶二馆完成之后那才有可能把整个所有故宫展示的能量做一个转移"},{"start":431.642,"end":457.439,"text":"是所以在故宮正管整修的時候基本上來講二管還是會開跟過去不一樣因為過去的話正管整修的話就等於北院都沒有展覽那現在的話我們先處理一個二管所以故宮正管整修的時候二管還是會正常營運那另外的話就是更大的能量會放在南院那南院以原來的規劃的話在明年的話整個"},{"start":459.66,"end":483.453,"text":"土造會完成然後之後的話我們進行室內專修所以這個時間點的話如果我現在的有時候也是技術上的問題就是當然是如果現在政管故宮政管馬上整修的話那我的展示能量的話馬上削減可是南院的二管完成之後就你的北院"},{"start":484.133,"end":507.664,"text":"其實就可以鎮館來整修所以它會有一個節奏性的調整那當然就是說所以你有打算就是未來鎮館是來大整修的本來新故宮計畫就包括鎮館的整修鎮館的整修並不是為了只是做入口亭而是說它整個那個建築節奏的整修然後包括防水包括它的室內空間更新因為"},{"start":509.025,"end":517.855,"text":"60年的博物館基本上來講跟國外新的博物館比的話那個地板都有顯得老舊了包括有人在質疑故宮的廁所說什麼"},{"start":520.882,"end":547.468,"text":"不太漂亮或是車水馬桶的話就是舊式的這個東西的話我們都必須要重新那我再利用一點時間來跟您探討就是故宮北院的參觀動線的問題北院現在的慶友的這個側邊道路其實並非正規的路線而是所謂的施工道路就是說公車 汽車長期都走這條路來進出可是"},{"start":550.689,"end":566.346,"text":"可是故宮至今它欠缺一個統一的中央入口那動線上看起來也是如同這個進建皇帝寶物班就是說你要求民眾一路爬樓梯那沒看到文物就滿身汗啦"},{"start":566.906,"end":583.516,"text":"那當然現在在側邊有加設一段號稱無障礙的這個林蔭步道可是你如果遇到下雨恐怕又溼滑喔那最終民眾還是會去爬樓梯或穿越車道才能進入鎮館所以不是完整的那個所謂無障礙的設計"},{"start":584.637,"end":605.79,"text":"所以想要請院委員長就故宮的參觀動線來看符合一座現代化的博物館的基本要求看起來是沒有那在動輒被扣上去中國化的帽子的情況之下我想您一定想好好做事就您這個博物館職人的這個位置您有什麼樣的改革解方跟委員報告其實故宮的"},{"start":611.775,"end":632.382,"text":"找出一個便捷的那個參觀的動線在大故宮計畫的時候誠心之考量考量從現在的天下圍攻的那個大門然後做一個地下的連通到過去到鎮館的地下室但是這個在大故宮計畫的時候也引發很大的爭議所以最後這個案子的話完全被否決"},{"start":633.542,"end":651.144,"text":"那後來新故宮計畫的話我們就不動中軸線而是在現在的第二展覽館圖書文獻大樓那邊從那個Y28的捷運站然後從現在慈善路的公車站做一個斜坡的無障礙的連通道上去這個部分的話是台北市的"},{"start":653.454,"end":666.813,"text":"杜花吉已经审过了我们现在在越南的阶段就花包越南准备要花包所以这个部分的话未来的话就可以从至善路然后从原来的公车亭那边然后直接坐电扶梯上去"},{"start":668.228,"end":684.223,"text":"或是從Y28的捷運站直接從捷運站這邊連通上去所以這個部分的話就可以把那個立體跟平面的那個做一個接軌那至於中間的入口亭的話其實我們原想就是恢復原來的故宮最傳統的大鴻門的"},{"start":686.525,"end":698.688,"text":"包括中央博物院國立故宮博物院那個門可以變成是一個可以進出的門當然它現在不是一個主要的動線但是恢復它的一個原始的一個功能意向的話"},{"start":700.291,"end":720.311,"text":"這是我們去思考的但是因為這樣的話就變成說有多了一個建屋那另外的話也把一樓的大廳的屋頂推高但是因為這樣的話就牽涉到大家會認為說跟現在大家看到的形貌不一樣可是現在的形貌的話基本上來講的話也經過5次的修正也不是原來的形貌"},{"start":721.151,"end":738.831,"text":"所以这个部分的话我们还是会跟文字委员沟通那我也讲说两次审不过如果第三次审不过的话原则上我们就做一个明确的决定这个案子的话我们就会变更设计好谢谢院长谢谢主席谢谢林经委员质询院长先回座接下来请葛如君问"}]}},{"id":"165144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c9c7edcc07ab71951b96356aa020e99bb422b881fe7d28f453eb26cf665c94cb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:53:13 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有請顧部長請顧部長部長好 部長今年的這個漢關演習呢澎湖馬宮基地連續四天呢遭到不明無人機的侵擾其實如果把時間往前推的話在一百一十一年八月的時候金馬外島跟這個金門的二膽島其實呢也是連續遭到這個小型的這個無人機的這個侵擾喔"},{"start":29.304,"end":52.377,"text":"那我記得去年的時候本席曾經也請教過就是說當國軍國軍是如何偵測到這個入侵的無人機那時候國防部給我的這個回答是讓我非常的驚訝就是說我們是用目測那作為一個科技大導這個回答真的讓本席真的不可思議那當然國防部那時也有回應就是說其實我們正在建置這個雷達的這個監測的這個系統"},{"start":55.859,"end":57.641,"text":"我在想其中應該有包含剛剛陳俊宇委員所提到的26套的反制系統其實這個反制系統是到今年的這個元滅份才招標出去"},{"start":71.178,"end":76.121,"text":"不然應該是在今年的12月31號以前必須要履約完畢可是我剛剛有聽到國防部的這個回應就是說其實我們目前只交付了12套剩下來的可能就是明年才會交付完畢等於說整個這個時間是比原先的這個履約的時間可能就是會往後延"},{"start":91.369,"end":102.262,"text":"我本身想了解的就是說,除了陸軍司令部這26套的防治系統,我也知道空軍司令部另外有辦理,就是由空軍司令部來統籌辦理的高達43億遙控無人機防疫系統,"},{"start":107.708,"end":129.497,"text":"我想了解一下就是說空軍司令部的這一套43億的這個遙控無人機防禦系統跟陸軍司令部的這一套到底它的區別在哪裡空軍司令部的這43億的這些系統是建制在哪裡因為是統籌辦理是不是被分佈到各軍種這個部分可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":132.953,"end":160.146,"text":"委員好我是空軍司令部參謀長跟委員報告我們空軍建制的主要是固定式的還有一個就是自動電軍一個機動式的無人機反制系統主要陸軍跟空軍的部分是建制在機場那這裡面包含兩個部分一個是干擾槍我們在112年已經籌獲310支干擾槍已經配發到各單位那固定式的總共有19座那在各個基地為主固定式的"},{"start":160.566,"end":169.034,"text":"那機動式的是以自動電軍的機動載台為主那這有5套 總共是24套那目前建案的進度都是正常"},{"start":170.186,"end":194.419,"text":"所以這個部分的話空軍司令部建設其實還是以干擾槍的建設因為您剛才提到這部分不是 干擾槍分兩個部分一個是干擾槍另外一個是固定式的在基地裡面它有一個固定式的一個監測主動被被動的監測的還有干擾的一個裝備那這在基地裡面是一個比較大範圍所以說它的監測是可以接收到"},{"start":196.266,"end":217.359,"text":"四種頻率就是包含了你在操作的GPS頻率影像傳輸的頻率還有遙控的頻率這個被動接收到之後它可以比較精確的定位出它的方位然後在我們的主控站基地的主控站就可以看到無人機從哪個方向來在什麼位置所以說建置之後我們各基地的反應都非常好"},{"start":217.719,"end":240.896,"text":"他很清楚的可以知道現在有哪個無人機在什麼位置然後他上面會有一個干擾主動式的干擾槍由基地的控制中心做遙控的去做一個干擾那這個部分呢我們空軍事務部我們所辦理的這個防疫這個無人機防疫系統案這個部分的話是都已經建置完成目前正在建置中到明年的年底會全數完成"},{"start":241.876,"end":265.483,"text":"到明年底會全數完成就對了因為我不太了解就是說這兩個建制的內容跟差別是在哪裡那再來的話就跟委員報告因為剛剛兩個是不同一個是要在後續建制那一個有一部分在九套是已經建制完成了那這個部分的話按照我們現在"},{"start":267.025,"end":272.038,"text":"時勢的乾燥的來看的話只要是進入紅區的話我們都能夠有效的驅離這樣"},{"start":274.191,"end":298.229,"text":"對 因為我現在部長講到一個重點就是接下來我想要請問的我知道目前的這個SOP的流程是比如說我們必須要識別監控告警通報安全確認防禦設計等等我們在針對這些入侵到營區或是到一些機敏區域的這些無人機我們現在還是要跑這些流程嗎"},{"start":299.21,"end":318.987,"text":"目前還是要跑這個流程嗎會跑完流程的話早就已經被無人機早就已經收證已經完畢然後就離開了我們是針對這些機敏區域我們還是必須要跑這些SOP流程嗎包委員我們我是作為一次次長針對無人機的防禦我們之前有說明我們說要區分主被動還有區分軟硬插"},{"start":322.35,"end":345.672,"text":"當然能夠建置所有的自動化的反制系統包含主動被動的偵測以及主動的干擾那是我們期盼隨著建案的作業以及預算的獲得我們會逐次去建立那另外在部隊防護的本身這是一個基本訓練也就是說未來在戰時我們可能在不同的場域交戰或是我們的系統的功能的發揮的不同程度的狀況下"},{"start":346.132,"end":351.594,"text":"部隊必須進行本身自我的防護你講的是暫時嘛如果是說現在陳平時代呢陳平時代我們還是不斷說到這個這個可能就是外來的這個侵入嘛對不對也許是跟這個敵外勢力有關係那就是入侵到我們的機敏區域的話我們還是沒有辦法及時來處理嗎"},{"start":368.34,"end":392.828,"text":"這是兩個同時間要進行的就是用自動化監控的設備由專業操作員來去進行有效的反制那同時間在營區範圍內或是我們在操作區範圍內的部隊也必須進行我們主要是進行一點身邊連鎖反應所以他會有識別監控那告警通報他同時要通報所有周邊的友軍共同去進行警戒跟防禦"},{"start":393.428,"end":417.404,"text":"所以他是一個部隊處置的程序這是一個基本的部隊防護程序所以必須同時進行訓練跟進行整備這樣不然在平時戰時他能夠有效的去應對跟應處跟委員做說明所以我們之後其實還是不會針對機敏區域來做一個比較特殊的一個法律上的一個修正是不會就對了所以我們還是會按照這些流程"},{"start":420.293,"end":422.701,"text":"跑完這些流程然後再來做處置的意思"},{"start":424.594,"end":451.663,"text":"報委員好 我是法律師司長 報委員報告在今年114年8月1號施行的軍事營區安全維護條例當中其中第10條是國軍在執行軍事營區安全勤務時對無人機侵入飛越營區或是侵入營區的部分有危害國家軍事或是營區的安全設施或經營設備時我們可以使用器具遇適當的處理 已經有法源依據了"},{"start":452.338,"end":474.613,"text":"今年的8月1號已經施行了是 之前我知道好像還要再先警告警告再來的話再來確定甚至之前為了怕說有一些產生一些突發狀況所以我們連這個使用一些比較硬殺的部分我們之前曾經拿過拿掉過這個部分嘛那現在的話是允許的嘛是 那必要的時候也可以使用武器"},{"start":478.306,"end":488.553,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那再來就是說國防部今年8月份有宣布將無人機的操作維護等基礎訓練納入新兵必學的這個課程裡面那其實這樣這個部分的話其實相關的這個建議其實本席也曾經有建議過然後對於這項規劃本席是予以肯定"},{"start":502.283,"end":516.353,"text":"像之前我們陸軍司令部曾經就說過希望達到人人都是無人機的這個操作員可是無人機的這個性能跟精密度其實是不一樣的那當然我有看到今天的這個報告有提到這個訓練規劃的這個部分我們現在現行的專責軍種無人機的訓練其實是分不到各軍種而且我們還有分所謂的高階訓練等等那當然明年2026年這個美國的這個MQ"},{"start":530.664,"end":542.781,"text":"9B的這個無人機即將可能就是要抵達台灣了那之前我有看過報導像不是每一個人都能夠操作他必須要有這個空軍的這個背景所以可能我們還會分不同的個人看這個"},{"start":547.107,"end":567.578,"text":"這個軍人他自己本身的背景可能會安排到不同的這個訓練的這個階層這個我們都可以理解那當然我有看到就有很多其實有很多的國家現在無人機的配置方面正在推行所謂高端跟低端互相互相搭配並用的這個方式那高端無人機當然就是提到就是剛剛像美國的MQ"},{"start":569.299,"end":585.597,"text":"9B收割機像這是屬於高端的無人機甚至還有美國的RQ-4全球鷹等等都是那第一段的部分讓我驚訝的就是說像澳洲今年宣布援助烏克蘭它這個BBDS無人機它的機體試用"},{"start":587.179,"end":602.299,"text":"瓦勒紙做的而且是用在偵查物資接送還有這個短程的供給那造價非常的便宜大概3500美金那南韓呢其實他們也有類似的這個低端無人研發這個低端的無人機"},{"start":603.36,"end":618.27,"text":"那像台灣的話台灣其實也在積極的研發無人機的這個生產我們也想要打造一個無人機的產業所以我想請教一下台灣有沒有這方面的規劃有沒有這方面的這個研發或這方面的需求請問"},{"start":619.871,"end":635.74,"text":"我想先回答一下那個剛剛委員提到的就是說無人機的訓練我想這個新兵的基礎訓練方向就是屬於最基礎的訓練然後他會還有進入到比較高專長的訓練那MQ-9V這個部分那是屬於更"},{"start":636.34,"end":662.35,"text":"更高端更高端應該是屬於連戰成績那個是需要他可能需要空軍的背景才有辦法去去操作嘛我有聽聽看過這方面是跟一架戰鬥機一樣是是那另外剛剛提到的這些有關我們有關創新小組已經來做就這個做一些創新的一個運用我想我們整平是要不要要不要說明一下我們"},{"start":666.745,"end":681.498,"text":"你也說明一下中科院院長這邊跟你說明子製的無人機它是一種低成本的趨勢目前我們低成本的部分我們比較主要投入在第一個3D列印基層製造的部分第二個是射速成型"},{"start":682.861,"end":696.531,"text":"這兩項都是目前我們國內的優勢那事實上它跟紫緻的比起來的話其實價格相差不會太多尤其是色出成型的部分其實你是可以把價格壓得蠻低的如果是大量製造的話這是我們現在比較"},{"start":697.552,"end":726.135,"text":"取向的部分那指示的部分不是说我们没有去投入只是指示的部分在台湾目前我们这么潮湿还有接近海洋的环境之下其实我们有评估过它不是我们目前比较积极去投入的方式所以其实并不是说每个产业台湾都适合因为台湾的这个潮湿的环境所以澳洲跟韩国虽然他们有在研发可是以台湾的环境来讲其实气候环境是不适合的是不是"},{"start":727.135,"end":747.355,"text":"院長是這樣子的意思嗎我想我們都可以來探討我想著重於在3D列印這個部分應該是我們現在的一個重點對 我們正在研發當中嗎就3D列印的部分是 還沒有進入到市場嘛 是不是在"},{"start":750.245,"end":765.118,"text":"是 委員好 我是整平時事長在明年我們有規劃一個用小批量籌貨的方式去採購3D列印的無人機那買進來之後我們會讓部隊來試用了解它的功性能是不是符合我們的作戰需求等"},{"start":765.945,"end":789.5,"text":"所以我們還是要先引進之後我們先再來研究所以目前還沒有進入到這個研發的階段就對了沒有 我們就直接在現貨的市場上面先現貨市場先買進來才售一些成功的產品那我們現在有一個機制就是用小批量採購的方式那如果覺得可以我們就直接可以進入量產的階段這樣好 謝謝 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cfbad494715864dac91e8053ceea3e5d7422b881fe7d28f4594876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:28:12 - 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我是副總長執行官 跟您做個報告實際上這個一方面是當初他設計的時候我們所這個大家所想要他的這個簡單來講嘛 我實際上就是說興趣是什麼我想有一部分我的看法跟馬委員差距不遠有時候我們當下沒有不行可是我們明知道半個月之後或三個月之後他就變成沒用了"},{"start":68.041,"end":85.03,"text":"或者像曾經紅極一時的彈簧刀現在在烏克蘭戰場上效果不好因為你會用人家也會反制你嘛所以我現在要問你的是就目前在參謀本部你們了解起來軍事用途的無人機最新的發展趨勢"},{"start":86.411,"end":113.844,"text":"這個Cutting Edge最新的這個趨勢是什麼其他單位補充 我不是要考試很可能後續會導入AI智慧的運用他到空中之後他可以自行辯證目標並且分析用AI之後用AI我要用干擾的方式有沒有可能當然也有可能所以說他在抗干擾的技術甚至有部分現在在戰場上運用已經導入了光纖導引等等我提這個點我們這不是研討會"},{"start":115.265,"end":142.883,"text":"我看到我們要買四萬五千架當然現在拉下來重新思考了四萬五千架的無人機如果我們開的是現在熟知的規格等你招標完成那個通通落伍了幾十億幾百億它就變成沒用錢的損失浪費我認為還是小喔最怕的是什麼安慰劑效用就是我以為我有了我以為我有這個戰力了真正在打的時候它變無用"},{"start":143.783,"end":173.142,"text":"那個更危險所以現在無人機的新科技的導入它的新趨勢第一個是AI的運用GPS deny就是沒有GPS的環境下它能夠飛行或者沒有導引的狀況下它能夠去處理這個大概現在是無人機的方向當時為了對抗干擾你看烏克蘭戰場一大堆光纖的尾巴齁那個線拉在屁股後面可是那不是好方法現在慢慢就沒了為什麼我順著線就可以打掉那個飛手啊所以"},{"start":174.264,"end":187.982,"text":"不管是AI GPS或者是群工或者一台主機帶著一群我根本我們的飛手訓練現在有什麼Level 1到Level 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但是做對才不會浪費錢"},{"start":318.698,"end":338.288,"text":"不是只單獨便宜我單獨便宜買了安慰劑直接吃下去夠心命好像沒問題真正要用的時候不能用嘛所以我剛才講的納入只管我希望在未來我們無人機採購的時候你要有這些啊他要能夠跟誰對話他要能夠被誰看見否則不要說"},{"start":339.989,"end":354.626,"text":"他國的友軍我們自己的國軍裡面的友軍都要擔心這個飛出去撞到誰會被打到民船無人船我只貪圖便宜好像便宜很好用就要出去跟自殺炸彈客一樣到處亂跑你沒有納入職管"},{"start":355.717,"end":378.103,"text":"你怎麼去監偵他你怎麼去處理這是我要講的第一件事情我不曉得這個黃三江你看吧委員這部分是委員的指導的確是非常正確的不過我們現在現在無人機現在已經引用進來的規劃包含這個從高階的無人機一直到部隊基本階層使用的無人機軍規的大概沒問題我現在講的是商規那手上放上來就飛出去"},{"start":378.203,"end":402.197,"text":"所以說那個作戰單位成績他們在因為這個部分是例如說這個分散食指管並且交給任務室指揮我們會運用我們正常例如說TAC系統我們直接交付到基礎的單位我們現在的無人機全部都可以跟TAC系統連線嗎我們現在TAC系統實際上是配付給個人跟部隊的這個指揮官到達前線之後可以配付到最基本的連級甚至連級以下的單位參謀本部在用兵也是軍令單位"},{"start":405.338,"end":416.81,"text":"我們現在採購的所有無人機不管是砲兵單位在用的海軍陸戰隊在用的在你們的指管系統裡面都看得到 指揮得到我們會透過不同的系統去一直指揮到最基層用無線電 那個太慢"},{"start":420.794,"end":441.717,"text":"我講的是在共同圖像裡面在共同指管體系裡面我能夠導引他到指定的位置去打特定的對象我必要的時候他可以drop把他放掉我們現在所有的採購有納入嗎現在是我們正常的正常的指管體系裡頭採購的新的指管裝備和通信系統就已經可以做到這個地步了陸海空軍都有"},{"start":442.357,"end":461.372,"text":"當然是陸海空軍整體的考量我們現在陸軍本身指管系統都不太有了你可以無人機納入我們現在是建立新的我們不要講好聽話 我覺得不足我支持你預算 補足來我們陸軍那個部隊從A點到B點還在動拐動動 check"},{"start":462.209,"end":489.455,"text":"通報執行官那個不叫那個跟我們一般的command control不一樣欸實際上這次在我們這個光復箱救災裡頭我們已經把這些新的這個你們有跟消防各方面那個TAK那個整合第一個我建議我們這是一個挑戰我再強調一次我沒有說誰對誰錯我也不懂全部我這次去台美國防會議我也問他這個問題到底無人機的標案要怎麼寫啊"},{"start":490.27,"end":492.226,"text":"我根據現有成熟的寫出來的標案"},{"start":493.291,"end":521.136,"text":"招標那一刻他就落伍了如果90億100億丟下去不是國訓要浪費啊這是一個趨勢我覺得在立法院我不會去指責你們浪費因為這是一個新的樣態所以第一個新科技前緣科技的能力怎麼寫在標案裡面可是又因為是前緣科技很容易只有他有別人都沒有我怎麼樣透過採購法規的保障避免動不動被人家講哎呦你只有一家有在賣"},{"start":522.196,"end":542.668,"text":"那就他最好 我當然只有那家在那邊 懂我意思嗎就是說要避免圖利 又要買到最新的在法規面 這個採購案部長是法律專家 在建案之前這個要思考清楚第三個 以參謀本部的角度無人機的運用或反制無人機的運用"},{"start":544.229,"end":562.44,"text":"每個單位都一樣嗎那當然需求也不一樣當然依照各部隊他的任務和屬性的不同會有相當的差異黃志偉上將是空軍嘛是你是我們空軍的長官我就問你反制無人機如果在機場你們第一個要考量什麼他會不會干擾"},{"start":563.8,"end":587.499,"text":"除了機場本身是不會被監偵或者被進來攻擊之外另外我們這個進出的航路以及航空機飛行的機遇會不會受到影響我現在裝一個無人機的反制系統我裝在列嶼 裝在左營軍港或者我們既得艦上面裝在我們這個坑子口 裝在龍鋼大操場裝在我們的這個制航基地"},{"start":589.035,"end":607.594,"text":"這個反制無人機的標準會一樣嗎當然不一樣 這個是又牽扯到我們國軍現在作戰的頻譜管理的問題一個是頻譜管理問題 另外一個美國在反制無人機至少我看到空軍都要求 至少至少要FAA approved"},{"start":608.476,"end":628.48,"text":"不用certificate就是說美國的航空運用的核准就是要避免干擾航道的通訊所以我剛才只提的就是說無人機的運用我砲兵我以前用觀測的用報座標的火力那個效果效率設打一門之後再來做校正"},{"start":628.86,"end":646.574,"text":"那個時代過了 現在可能無人機座標提供第一門打中了 兩分鐘內我就要拔腿就跑了 以免被反擊嘛那我透過這樣的運用 我減少兵源 編制調整我的邊線筆才不會永遠不夠所以他需要的無人機不一樣 跟我海軍陸戰隊"},{"start":648.376,"end":663.725,"text":"在面對有鹽分的有水分的地方他用的也不一樣所以我這一個部分要提的是國軍的標案怎麼可能甲乙丙丁物五種買四萬五千台發下去你是要各單位自己拿蘿賴把這邊調整自己的需求嗎這不對嘛"},{"start":667.768,"end":691.601,"text":"實際上我們剛才部長也針對這個問題也做過回答我們在未來的這個購案裡頭實際上已考慮到這個迭代變換的需求所以說是分年採購在這個採購上面這個如果有新的技術也有更新上面的這個規格的限制你們是用兵單位我建議你們現在是買方市場我一樣買四萬五千架我在立法院的態度預算我認為應該支持"},{"start":694.378,"end":721.46,"text":"預算不是在算達到幾%幾%啦那個GDP3%5%我認為不應該這樣算而是我們有沒有需求需求來自於敵情的威脅當中共有原火部隊我就要思考面對長城火箭我要怎麼處理當中共的無人機侵擾越來越多我就要思考我要哪些類型的反制無人機的做法在平時我不能硬殺那軟殺無法的時候該怎麼處理我們的需求堆疊起來的國防預算是幾%就幾%"},{"start":724.035,"end":752.152,"text":"給國軍好的待遇也要給國軍好的裝備而提供好的裝備才是我們軍事採購的第一優先發展國安產業是附加價值不能本末倒置我花了國防預算就要買給國軍對的東西而對的東西可以帶動國內產業的發展這是好事情可是我不能為了發展產業給國軍次等品說沒關係你先用我把市場做大起來如果買得到買不到當然我們就自己研製買得到的話"},{"start":753.308,"end":770.787,"text":"花錢要買給國軍最好的啊因為那是生命攸關的事情所以我剛才講的不管是前沿科技的運用AI啦等等納入指管是一個關鍵C2這要納入第三個我希望的是一樣四萬五千架搞不好有一百個規格那我就給你掌聲鼓勵了"},{"start":772.452,"end":799.768,"text":"這一個台南空軍基地需要的規格是這種這一個在樂山鋪路爪需要的規格是這個在太平島上需要的規格是這個不同的需求不同的作戰環境他應該有不同的規格現在在無人機其實已經慢慢走向買方市場客製化單位需求化當然我們不會弄到那麼細大的模組而不是甲乙比丁物這麼大的量然後呢"},{"start":801.454,"end":810.463,"text":"我要請教你們先請我請部長我最後請教三個問題我們現在無人機反制系統要買635套"},{"start":815.131,"end":832.362,"text":"我剛才問到問題部長應該知道我接下來要問什麼了這635套96億我個人認為無人機反制應該加速盡快建制起來否則像烏克蘭對俄羅斯的蜘蛛網行動我們現在台灣的空軍機場沒有一個防得住"},{"start":833.806,"end":847.243,"text":"我們基地像我台南機場旁邊都民設我租一個民房還不用貨櫃車勒我在那邊藏了二三十台無人機飛出去管你IDF還是F16先炸掉了所以我們的無人機的防制"},{"start":848.362,"end":868.091,"text":"的設施確實是極度的脆弱要趕快建立我贊成但是還是那句話要做對來給預算要做對的事情所以第一個能不能對抗新的趨勢現在你們建的案一口氣買這一個635套我不知道規格是什麼我看到你們只想要有干擾啦要有takeover"},{"start":870.353,"end":885.729,"text":"takeover這個要跟資料庫有關資料庫的擴充性以及它對於新的無導引的AI的群工的你們這些一口氣買這麼多套他們有沒有這樣的能力"},{"start":886.589,"end":909.457,"text":"包委員我簡單補充這個有關於這個系統我們的期望也是依照二屋戰爭的經驗我們希望它至少達成三大功能第一個是能夠自動徵收自動指引第二個同時能夠干擾多批次多架式的無人機跟現在的UDS的這種干擾掃描不一樣"},{"start":910.537,"end":935.483,"text":"時間的關係齁我還要提醒部長各單位反制無人機需求會不一樣環境的限制也會不一樣千萬不要一個規格買一堆然後到時候不合用一堆浪費我又要重新買一堆無人機反制無人機軍用確實需要預算確實該支持給你們但是當你們"},{"start":936.263,"end":955.638,"text":"定標案的規格的時候要思考他的科技前緣性他的AI的導入新進科技的導入以及各單位需求的不同特別是環境的不同陸海控就不一樣了不要說系到各部隊然後最後我提醒陸軍你們我今天本來要問你們天山營區阿兵哥沒有水可以用"},{"start":956.67,"end":972.46,"text":"要解決 你不能不解決早上都不能刷牙 開什麼玩笑因為他是那個管路木刀這個問題我只是提醒這件事情天山盈區 連早上都不能刷牙沒有水這件事情要解決如果需要協調地方自來水供應單位我幫你們一起來協調"}]}},{"id":"165150","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c62b4cc0c083b8f8f91e8053ceea3e5d7422b881fe7d28f45a488f48b86ec085f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:13:25 - 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主席有請顧立雄部長那麼其他列席的官員如果有需要補充的請自行上台是林委員"},{"start":14.368,"end":39.629,"text":"部長早 今天呢我們當然就是針對我們整個所謂的無人機的相關的這種所謂無人載具投入的這樣的一個專案報告喔那麼不知道部長是不是知道這兩天有關於在野黨委員已經認為就是有關於我們的國防預算的當中如果說是超過GDP3%的話那麼他們打算要把它砍掉"},{"start":40.129,"end":63.516,"text":"那麼如果說以我們現在無人機的部分的話我在這個公開的這個網站上面看到了就是現在有一筆反制無人機的系統但是呢在公告上面說接下來的預算是使用115年到117年的特別預算言下之意這是公告在先喔"},{"start":64.016,"end":67.238,"text":"我想賴清德總統在國慶演說當中說要打造台灣之盾的這個構想要建立反飛彈反飛機跟反無人機的多層防護這個部分本席是非常贊同的但是我想馬上這個公告一出來就有媒體開始報導了"},{"start":81.508,"end":84.971,"text":"他就說這個是不是一個不存在的預算但是先把這樣的一個採購的部分公告出來了那因為我其實在10月20號的質詢當中當時也問過了顧部長那麼希望能夠了解現在到底我們在所謂"},{"start":98.143,"end":114.906,"text":"特別預算尤其是台灣之盾的這個預算當中到底如何的來使用當時就有回覆說希望在年底之前提出這樣的預算那麼我知道其實對於國防的部分全民都支持但是在預算如何的使用跟如何配比"},{"start":115.467,"end":143.107,"text":"的時候其實民眾通常是只知其一不知其二我很希望利用等一下的十分鐘的時間讓全民的去了解到底我們的預算是如何的來做使用以及我們到底有沒有需要這樣的特別預算因為畢竟這個預算如果年底要提出來而現在在議當委員也說了超過GT3%以上的他就覺得太多了那如果是這樣劍指特別預算的時候那我們要好好的先說明一下首先第一個就是"},{"start":144.288,"end":154.596,"text":"在這樣的公告過程當中只是把這個所謂未來所需要的需求然後先提出來那麼這個合不合乎我們現在一般的採購流程跟規定"},{"start":156.915,"end":181.067,"text":"鮑委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一個在這個您所提列的這個可吸食無人機反制系統它目前是在11月3號做的一個公開閱覽這是符合也是依據政府採購法第34條因為它是超過一個1億元以上那為了要有資訊透明化那公開閱覽它並不等同正式的招標文件"},{"start":181.707,"end":209.966,"text":"那它最主要是在一個商情的跟規格的一個回饋那作為未來在修製招標文件的時候避免廠商疑議讓正式的預算獲付以後可以如期的貨裝那最主要委員也看到了這個紅線也幫我們框起來了這個案子它是寫是奉核後再行補助也就是說這個是我們依照我們的有這樣的需求我們要先去了解商情跟相關的規格得到回饋"},{"start":212.408,"end":229.79,"text":"並沒有目前還沒有相關的所以就是一個預告公告然後我們國軍有這樣的需求跟建制的計畫然後就是讓這個廠商能夠先提前做準備但是預算已經先希望匡列在那裡期望能夠"},{"start":231.592,"end":236.135,"text":"好那沒問題我們就來看一下這個所謂反制無人機的系統到底是什麼其實本席也非常的好奇我就特別去找了一下過去的新聞我們來看看喔其實真的我們不能讓國軍再當摩登原始人本席特別讀了一些相關的報告包括今年7月的時候我們的漢光41號演習也特別都提到了有關無人機的反制因為隨著現在所謂的"},{"start":258.374,"end":264.679,"text":"人口老化 然後人口稀少無人所謂建制的這樣的設備其實是非常的重要在訪問上非常重要但是從2022年當時在金門大膽島我們看到我們的官兵用石頭去驅離這個無人機到2024年的4月8號的時候我們現在開始用干擾槍了"},{"start":277.99,"end":292.247,"text":"但是干擾槍就是人的操作對不對那這就跟勢力有關了我眼睛好一點的看得遠一點我眼睛差的我可能近在咫尺都來不及反應所以我想請問的是以目前我們要投入96億的預算來做所謂的這個反制"},{"start":297.202,"end":304.549,"text":"無人機的這樣的系統那目前是2025年就是今年年底會完成26套那麼這26套夠用嗎那麼這26套為什麼這個現在需要另外開一個剛剛我前面講的特別預算的標案要來花96億"},{"start":318.171,"end":342.96,"text":"包委員這個26套也就是有鑒於您也是圖示上面過去我們對於外離島他對我們實施的一個民用無人機的侵擾以及遂行認知作戰那我們我們也目前第一個是已經配發了相關的總共總共是232隻的這個干擾槍對那包含到本外島那這次已經給外島"},{"start":343.72,"end":353.222,"text":"那但是甘老鄉畢竟如委員所說的它是要靠目視才可以我們還是要靠科技所以這26套它是以外島地主為主因為外島它很多離島現在這26套已經陸續都已經交建已經裝備了嗎整個還在建案和驗收的程序那26套如何來做配置因為我們剛剛看到的這個新聞都是以外離島為主嘛"},{"start":370.666,"end":398.086,"text":"对那么在外离岛跟本岛之间这26套如何来使用这个案子的26套它其实是9.8亿那它主要就是以外离岛为主那刚刚委员所讲的这个96亿可惜是这个它主要是未来在我们的这些重要的防护的指挥所还有至于佩服的单位我这边就还"},{"start":398.706,"end":406.952,"text":"好如果是屬於機密的部分可以不用說明但是為什麼本席會特別想要利用這個時候來詢問的原因很簡單對於一般民眾來講看到這樣的新聞他會同意建制因為這覺得就是摩登原始人啊怎麼會來到了2025年的時候我第一2022年我用石頭"},{"start":417.54,"end":420.481,"text":"我2024年的時候我用干擾槍可是干擾槍的時候來不及對不對這跟個人的反應跟個人的勢力有關所以民眾會支持所以我相信取得這26套那麼有其必要性但是接下來當一般的民眾看到是96億的時候雖然預算還沒有出來"},{"start":437.529,"end":445.994,"text":"但是如果今天沒有一個清楚的說明跟合理的說明的時候因為本席也讀到一些其他的報導會講說 哎呀 這個外離島這麼小哪裡需要到26套一半的數量就夠了免得分佈得太密集彼此還會互相干擾"},{"start":457.02,"end":477.248,"text":"所以本席不是一個所謂武器專家或者是國防專家但是我站在一個全民的視角我覺得我拿出這個例子給你做解釋而你們就必須要在這個時間點上面讓全民知道有其必要性不然馬上就會講說26套啊外離島這麼小你通通都放在外離島那你就夠啦那接下來還需要96億嗎您說這個是8億多不到9億的預算嘛對不對所以我想要給您時間來回覆"},{"start":486.312,"end":501.559,"text":"跟委員報告其實就是說有三件一個是這個UDS這個部分這是由空軍統建的這剛剛已經說明了那剛剛您講的26套這個是主要啦也是外離島為主但是也不限於"},{"start":502.6,"end":520.441,"text":"外離島來 主要以外離島為止這個是陸軍統建的那另外您講的一個那種可吸式的無人機反制用這個部隊在運用的那這個是我們要等到我們現在只是在做一個傷情的偵詢那要等到獲付預算以後才能夠真實進行所以其實是三個不同的目的"},{"start":521.022,"end":548.891,"text":"那空軍建制當然剛剛也提到我想也不適合去講說太明確地點但主要是為了這個它有固定跟機動的可以講用途就好而不是說木建在哪裡為了基地等等這樣子他剛剛參謀長已經講了那這個部分是一個那外離島的這個部分就是剛剛取代就是說現在用木式的這個方法好像沒有辦法能夠精準的去幕後到這個無人機然後把它進行做一個干擾的這個動作"},{"start":550.083,"end":573.896,"text":"那所以這個要運用這個外離島無人機的反制系統那至於可吸射當然就更進一步了這個是另外我們希望能夠達到對於相關有關這些我們對指揮所等等還有部隊的這些反制無人機避免被他們攻擊的這個目的"},{"start":574.256,"end":601.821,"text":"好因為本席會特別提出來是我們身為立法委員我們對於預算有其監督的責任那麼同樣的我相信透過質詢台上我們才會知道說已經對外公告但是其實預算都還沒有核定下來的時候給你們多一點的解釋也有機會讓全民了解每一套的所謂無人機的反制的相關的系統用在什麼樣的地方跟有其必要性至於用在哪裡"},{"start":603.061,"end":605.004,"text":"這是事涉機密也是事涉國安我們不會要求但是每一套就像剛剛部長所講的它的用途不一樣那這個必須要拆分清楚否則糊在一起的時候就很容易被誤導那當然接下來我要問的是這個"},{"start":619.802,"end":622.624,"text":"首先當然我也要非常感謝這一次陸海空軍的這些弟兄們在馬太安溪艷色湖的這個魂化家商風災當中給予這樣的協助喔那麼當然部長其實也表揚了101位的軍官喔頒予他們紀念章那麼我們其實也知道喔這一次國軍第一時間試圖動了摩羯戰術以進城的無人機搭配特戰隊的操作"},{"start":644.302,"end":652.045,"text":"微型無人機在道路中斷跟地形受限的情況之下可以立即回傳相關的影像跟河口的監態的動態系統來協助地方上做救災的部分喔那麼當然"},{"start":659.367,"end":662.108,"text":"我覺得無人機這個戰時的使用都是希望不要發生但是平時的救災反而會更需要所以這個救災視同作戰本席是非常同意但是我們知道現在無人機上剛剛的報告當中有堅真型戰術型跟攻擊型還有現在所謂的微型商規等等"},{"start":680.797,"end":683.599,"text":"那麼在這樣的人力跟編組當中我們現在是不是已經有一個完整的那邊的統籌而在面對整體的像這一次馬太安的救災當中其實顯示了一個重點就是怎麼樣在救災過程當中跟地方政府或者是前進指揮所或者是整個災防中心的搭配我相信無人機它發揮了非常重要的"},{"start":703.613,"end":709.556,"text":"功能在裡面那麼在經過這一次的這個所謂不論是花家沙風災或是馬太安艷澀湖的相關的救災之後有沒有進一步的思考未來這種所謂的臨時編組可以變成是有其計劃性的就是必要性的這種所謂雖然是任務但是有它的協助的SOP還是說其實事實上現在就已經建構了這樣的SOP"},{"start":730.549,"end":749.916,"text":"謝謝委員 我是助理市長 跟委員做說明就在這兩 在這個 煙射湖的救災活動當中我們已經有運用部隊現在的編組的無人機包含了這個 尖針型 戰術進程以及圍型這包含了海軍跟陸軍的各型無人機都結合它部隊的 這個救災部隊的編組"},{"start":752.037,"end":770.915,"text":"按照他分配的責任 分別去執行整個區域的監偵或者是人命搜救 搜索的這個任務那我們的災防救編組呢 也是依照災防救的劃分就同剛剛委員所知道 我們是在前線會開設前進指揮所那由這個住案區的指揮官來去做整個救災責任區的劃分那依照救災責任區的劃分 他會編組徵收的"},{"start":772.717,"end":788.968,"text":"然後做整個人命搜救的包含環境的整理以及相應的後勤資源等等這都會做整體的編圖跟規劃那未來無人機隨著逐次的貨裝健全的部署部隊之後當然會有更廣泛的運用以上說明好我覺得像這個也是非常重要的參謀長補充"},{"start":790.669,"end":805.267,"text":"校委員補充報告除了剛剛次長報告的事實上我們也整合我們也依災區的需求整合了民間的這個更大型的無人機是由我們的化學兵來提供藥劑和依照需要噴灑的地方實施一個空中的消除成效也非常良好"},{"start":806.049,"end":828.467,"text":"好 這個本席是認為喔接下來因為真的所謂大自然的變化 極端氣候的關係真的會常常出現一些我們過去沒有遇到的這樣的天氣的氣候的狀況那麼所以說有關於救災支援機制這個部分我覺得可以把它建立跟納入我覺得這個也是真的暫時出動但平時協助也算是一種訓練"},{"start":831.075,"end":839.931,"text":"我想無聯機的運用隨著我們陸續在貨裝應該會更有一個擴大的運用救災當然也是其中的一環謝謝 辛苦"}]}},{"id":"165165","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165165","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8ce216c7bff83deb46f337fb9388085e3b614279fc610c108c36b710c635f0fc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:30:50 - 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現在的話我們要求團隊進行一個模擬就是說修正的方案然後做一個公開的展示或是網路的調查"},{"start":87.267,"end":107.058,"text":"看看民眾他們的反應然後在之後再送那個文字集審議因為現在的你現在弄這個意象好像網路上的惡評蠻多的啦有人認為說很像防疫口罩嘛有人認為很像大OK蹦而且你坐電梯上來之後直接就擋到原來的故宮的外觀嘛"},{"start":108.191,"end":130.358,"text":"我覺得這件事情可能是大家比較介意的啦是 因為它的亮體大家會比較介意但是因為這是一個初步設計初步設計對 初步設計只是一個概念因為大家很關心 蠻多人很關心然後我們故宮說實在它並不是一個真的皇宮嘛故宮 顧名思義應該是以前的皇宮但我們的故宮不是以前皇宮啊"},{"start":131.682,"end":141.54,"text":"為什麼要叫故宮 是因為我們裡面有很多國寶當時政府為了要展示這些國寶 儲存這些國寶所以蓋了這個故宮雖然不是真的皇宮"},{"start":143.001,"end":168.892,"text":"那但是既然叫故宮我認為還是應該要比較像是傳統的皇宮的樣子這是我個人的建議啦所以你蓋了一個感覺上會擋到原本意象的東西會讓大家覺得不倫不類啦這部分您自己參考啦反正總而言之你們現在感覺上是不會過嘛所以你們可能會做大幅的修正在送嘛聽起來是這樣啦聽起來是這樣好然後再來喔故宮除了外觀之外好像裡面的設備"},{"start":170.433,"end":193.749,"text":"也被大家批評這是媒體的報導說你們最近在展一個百年展跟北宋有關的很多國內外觀光客都有去看結果一看到故宮裡面的廁所門生鏽然後就批評百年故宮連最基本的廁所維護都做不好"},{"start":195.482,"end":210.308,"text":"我不知道為什麼會這樣院長有去了解嗎是只有這一個廁所門嗎還是大部分都是長這樣根文報告這是在故宮一樓的左邊的南側的裡面的一個"},{"start":211.728,"end":233.546,"text":"机店的维修门所以基本上不是厕所门不是厕所门那这个的确是因为我们有马上去检视然后马上重新粉刷基本上来讲的话这个是故宫疏忽了我们把所有宴期南北宴的所有的厕所然后包括维修空间维修门我们都检视过了"},{"start":233.926,"end":262.946,"text":"你說這個民眾有開始討論之後你們立刻就有去重新檢測過對 我們在那有多少門是長得這樣就只有這一個怎麼那麼巧就一個而已因為它就是廁所裡面的那個機電的維修廁所裡面的機電門對被忽略了是但因為故宮是重要的觀光景點是啊 故宮對 所以每一個角落都要維護我們的廁所在北市的評估裡面我們永遠是優等的就是有這樣的疏漏我們也覺得很抱歉"},{"start":263.966,"end":281.857,"text":"反正現在都已經確定好了因為這個看起來應該很久了所以很多網友說是不是故意的因為是百年故宮所以要有歷史的痕跡所以故意要把它留成這樣應該不是沒有 開玩笑完全是疏忽完全是疏忽就對了OK 再來"},{"start":283.348,"end":297.589,"text":"我們來看 很多人會從網路上去買故宮的精品這一份是監察院審計部的報告引述故宮自己的調查結果我們發現有一些表現不是很理想"},{"start":298.49,"end":319.986,"text":"比如說在112年的時候消費者對於故宮網路商城賣的商品價格的滿意度是低於五成的只有四成五而且在付款方式的便利性也不高其實付款方式應該不至於滿意度這麼低但不知道為什麼只有不到七成"},{"start":320.726,"end":336.111,"text":"那這個部分故宮有什麼調整的你們有什麼改進的計畫嗎跟委員報告就是110年111年的話是因為疫情疫情的話網路的需求量高可是大家就沒有去注意到所謂的那個"},{"start":338.592,"end":361.2,"text":"評價不高的問題那到了112年疫情恢復以後我們正是這個問題所以113年整個那個網路商城的話就改版所以現在的滿意度113年114年滿意度都八成以上你說商品價格嗎商品價格的話我講的是特定項目"},{"start":362.13,"end":388.768,"text":"特定项目商品价格的话我们要再查商品价格的话的确故宫的文物的话都被评价说太贵了比较贵这个的确是这个样子那付款方式呢价格有时候反映价值啦那付款方式便利这可以调整吗付款方式便利基本上没有问题而且我们还设立国内第一个退税的退税的的博物馆只有故宫那可以有接口支付吗呃"},{"start":393.7,"end":413.713,"text":"因為接口支付是國人蠻常使用的一種支付方式現在有沒有接口支付接口支付目前沒有我們去你們商城的付款頁面去擷取的就沒有接口支付所以可能有人會認為說他比較常用的沒有機會用到就會覺得不夠便利性"},{"start":414.093,"end":441.559,"text":"是 這個部分我們可以再來評估因為接口之戶的話我們原來也有想要加進來可是因為前一陣子有一些升評所以我們就又把它停住了有一些什麼有一些接口之戶有一些負評負評 對所以你們沒有要用就對了我們會再評估會再評估 對便利性再提高然後再來像我之前都非常關心國寶的保存"},{"start":443.78,"end":457.799,"text":"因為剛剛也有非常多委員談到我們現在故宮去捷克參展9月12號到12月31號有展示131件包括翠玉白菜清明上河圖等國寶可是故宮之前也有被"},{"start":459.359,"end":477.959,"text":"檢討一件事情就是故宮的文物過去不管是在參觀、策展、修復的開箱的體鑒人員接觸紀錄未曾想死接觸紀錄等於是一個保障當你要做紀錄的時候你會提醒自己在接觸的時候會特別小心可是以前被檢討說接觸紀錄不想死"},{"start":481.365,"end":508.177,"text":"那我不知道像這一次出去展覽131件有沒有接觸紀錄到時候可不可以提供給委員會讓大家也做一個監督沒有問題喔因為故宮的進出庫房然後就是說提件然後就是出這些紀錄的話還件的話都會有一個相似的紀錄那再提供給我們最後一個小問題就是那時候故宮院長有抽點文物"},{"start":510.182,"end":512.824,"text":"那抽點的盤點期間是101年到111年然後盤點了15894件發現尚未修復的數量有358件實際上修復只有79件比例很低那現在的修復狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":526.487,"end":544.972,"text":"公文報告就是文物的經過這樣的一個千百年的歷程裡面當然會有很多就是需要修復的可是如果它狀況穩定的話沒有特殊的用途的時候其實我們並不會把它排列為修復的優先順序因為修復的人力永遠不夠"},{"start":546.212,"end":574.673,"text":"人力不夠其實我上個會期就提醒過你你要去跟行政院爭取能力我們爭取11個人沒有通過但是我們自己檢討之後爭取11個都不通過為什麼它的理由是什麼因為總和管制我們自己評估之後我們今年會增加一個用基金聘用的人力明年增加兩個未來的話如果基金有盈餘的話我們會再增加我覺得國保的保存也是很重要我覺得這部分大家一起努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165159","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165159","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c6410ca7c0d46418e91e8053ceea3e5d7614279fc610c108ce845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:58:16 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我們是不是能夠有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12.633,"end":38.662,"text":"部長好 今天我們的主題呢是跟無人機載具有關那當才很多的委員也針對無人機接下來96億的這個採購進行很多的這個詢問那我今天比較想問的事情是呢那有了無人機之後那我們另外與之相關的是關於人工智慧也就是AI的部分那包含是像在教養委員會他們也積極的在推動人工智慧基本法的草案"},{"start":39.962,"end":49.106,"text":"在審查當中所以我想要請教的是針對AI的趨勢國軍接下來是不是有比較具體的一些作為大概是要怎麼樣的來建構"},{"start":53.852,"end":69.751,"text":"人工智慧的這個部分在國防部這邊還處於草創的階段那目前我們配合行政院的政策指導我們先建立內部的AI人工智慧技術導入的政策指導的一個委員會"},{"start":70.732,"end":96.462,"text":"那就目前我們也透過我們整瓶師DIO這個管道去引進市場成熟的AI產品那其中尤其是有關於影像的判別以及電腦防護跟防害的這一塊是我們會先其導入那後續軍事應用的部分會是AI人工智慧的發展跟他的成熟度逐年納入我們後續的規劃"},{"start":97.315,"end":120.998,"text":"那你們有要建構所謂的人工智慧的專案辦公室嗎我們現在已經成立一個人工智慧專案辦公室什麼時候成立的這個部分是我們做的一個內部的組織調整它目前的階段是在做業務的整合我就問什麼時候成立的嘛AI人工智慧辦公室是在今年的10月1號"},{"start":123.38,"end":140.267,"text":"我每次跟你們講話都很累所以今年10月1號的時候設立了一個人工智慧的專案辦公室那是目前是屬於你們的內部的一個組織那我想問一下就是目前的階段是如此那未來有沒有可能考慮去擴大它的規模"},{"start":141.909,"end":168.237,"text":"目前未來是一定會擴大它的規模未來會擴大規模那這個人工智慧專案辦公室它整體的這個預算規模那你們是怎麼樣去規劃的包委員它目前是沒有多的預算我知道啊不然的話預算書上面寫大家就會問了嘛那我今天問我剛剛也講到啦就是說你們是從你們內部那先去整合出一個人工智慧專案辦公室可是你剛剛講說你們未來有要擴大嘛"},{"start":170.618,"end":186.429,"text":"那有擴大的時候那你就勢必你會動用預算或者是動用原額我在詢問的是你們接下來的下一步你要怎麼樣的去擴大那你的這個預算規模預計的原額以及團隊的人數這個部分是不是可以向我們說明"},{"start":186.829,"end":212.568,"text":"我們現在是剛成立還在試行現在如何擴大這個規模還沒有一個具體的決策因為為什麼要談這個就是我們今天講到無人機嘛那它其實是需要有導入AI的輔助的比舉例來說我們在這個風群無人機打擊目標的時候那究竟我們是要打到這個目標無反應的殲滅或者是達到傷害效果之後那就轉移下一波的這個攻擊"},{"start":213.308,"end":230.091,"text":"那這個呢如果我們有訓練完善的AI去下決策指令的話呢那其實是能夠更有效率的那所以我希望能夠看到我們這個所謂人工智慧專辦公室10月1號你們做的內部的成立那接下來如果有進一步的我要講預算"},{"start":231.192,"end":244.74,"text":"人員額擴大規模相關的這個內容必須要清楚的提供給我們知道那我們在很多的一些預算審查上比如說配合無人機等等我們才能夠更清晰的去了解不曉得部長這樣可不可以"},{"start":245.522,"end":260.709,"text":"我們現在人工智慧辦公室只是一個暫時性的一個協調聯絡的一個作為都是應用宣言那未來要如何再擴大人工智慧的運用這個我想我們還有待來討論"},{"start":261.789,"end":273.183,"text":"那我好奇喔就是你們預計就是如果要擴大的話那有規劃就比如說半年內或者是一年後這樣子比較rough的一個就是我不跟你問這麼細就是比較彈性的一個期程嗎"},{"start":276.491,"end":298.323,"text":"我們現在目前還只是在易用現言然後成立一個辦公室來作為一個協調各個需求那未來會把它考慮升級嗎就像是很多的我們在不同的部門裡面像比如說大家比較了解像什麼少子化辦公室或是等等各式各樣的辦公室"},{"start":299.003,"end":314.362,"text":"會朝向這個方面發展還是打算要就是用現有的這種小的內部組織然後就一路做到底了目前他第一階段就是先把我知道你的第一階段嘛我就在問下一階段的事情嘛"},{"start":315.422,"end":336.592,"text":"我們先講現在現在他是先把國防部裡面各個目前正在推動人工智慧的各司局次事的業務做一個總匯流那下一階段我們會配合軍事投資建案裡面有關於人工智慧技術導入的這個部分去適度的調整我們所需要的原額那預算的部分當然就會出現"},{"start":336.872,"end":344.857,"text":"OK好所以那你們大概預計就是說到這個階段就從階段A到階段B那大概需要多久的時間"},{"start":346.108,"end":367.524,"text":"目前還沒有一個實踐 都沒有我們現在只是先做一個統籌的概念因為大家都要發展的時候我們必須要從部裡面的立場做一個整理的策略的規劃了解 沒有就沒有沒關係接下來我要詢問一下我們收到的報告我回去檢查了一下最近大家都也很關心軍購案延宕的問題"},{"start":370.746,"end":395.374,"text":"那我們就看到關於延宕交付你們提了三案嘛那其中一案我覺得還好沒有差異很大但另外一案呢我們在10月1號其實會收到大家都有收到一份是美對台這個軍售案的公開書面資料那11月3號因為有專案報告的關係所以呢我們也有收到一份專案報告的資料"},{"start":395.854,"end":400.916,"text":"那在專報告之後我回去比對了一下10月1號的報告就是說一個月之間你們所寫的內容我必須說有蠻多部分是不一樣的那到底是怎樣為什麼一個月之間你們寫的報告會有這個差距來我們從F6V來看那有不同的地方我用紅色標註那手架機原本規劃是112年出廠"},{"start":420.844,"end":426.428,"text":"10月1號的時候講的是因為客製化的軟體研發所以期程要調整到114年全部於115年完成可是在11月3號的時候這個客製化軟體研發的內容就不見了就只講到是產線搬遷重啟跟供應鏈中斷然後說我們要加這個加趕工等等的"},{"start":445.26,"end":452.909,"text":"10月1號有提到的內容11月3號沒有出現第二個MK48重型魚雷的部分原本在10月1號的時候你們的報告裡面寫到的是受到俄烏戰爭跟國際戰爭的影響供應鏈的產能"},{"start":460.677,"end":467.419,"text":"但在11月3號的時候而且你們當時寫說調整其程式原本預計在117年結案調整其程到119年完成可是在11月3號的專案報告裡面供應鏈中斷跟重啟產線的因素是否來自於俄烏戰爭跟國際影響也不見了"},{"start":482.503,"end":486.766,"text":"那調整的期程變成115到117年就是原本的結案時間但是你10月1號的時候告訴我們的是要調整期程到119年我現在想問的是為什麼你們的兩次的報告會有這樣子明顯的出入啊"},{"start":503.197,"end":524.33,"text":"委員好 我是空氣商務長先就F16V的部分跟您做一個報告我想這個F16V影響的這個因素我們在很多的專案報告裡面都報告過那這三個因素一直都沒有改變過也從頭到尾的講法都是一致可能是因為篇幅上顯示的關係所以有些許的不同那跟委員報告當然第一個就是產線人力的問題因為COVID-19的關係所以說產線人力的問題"},{"start":529.013,"end":546.559,"text":"沒關係因為這個我們上一次都講過你現在在講重複的因為我問的問題不是這個我問的問題只是說為什麼你們10月1號跟10月3號你提供給我們的報告上面會有出入好不好那這個部分我也沒有要刁難你們我只是希望未來如果說我們有專案報告的時候你們"},{"start":548.12,"end":573.599,"text":"你們理應當去檢視一下先前提供的資料然後跟現在的資料然後做一個對比而不是說呢10月時候寫的是這樣11月時候寫的是這樣那我當然是我只問一下那個後面那個MK48因為我先前沒有問過那個我目前調整期程到底是到119年完成有這件事嗎還是規劃於115年到117年全數教育呢"},{"start":574.538,"end":592.218,"text":"委員好 海巡事務部常常跟您說明115它會開始 它的產能已經逐漸的在加速會在117把這個魚雷交付那118年 因為它有一些附屬裝備119是全案的結案但是它的deliver會在117年沒有啊 你10月1號你寫說117年結案啊"},{"start":595.477,"end":613.338,"text":"10月1號我們的資料是119年是結案是119沒有沒有你說原本預計於117年結案嘛但是調整其成到119年嘛那我剛剛詢問的意思是說那這句話是否現在依然如此或是有所調整跟改變嘛"},{"start":614.433,"end":624.623,"text":"現在目前就是在117年前會交運117年會交運就沒有119年完成這個部分沒有117年就全部結束結案我想MK48的重型娛樂的部分他應該在11月3號的報告裡面他是在講交運那自己整個的結案剛剛參謀長也提到因為結案他要後續的附屬裝備還要有一個一年的一個"},{"start":640.817,"end":653.101,"text":"結案合約的文件的審查那沒有問題所以這兩個的表述方法不同那另外這個客製化軟體的這個研發的這個部分在當時的這我們上次有討論過對對那所以現在應該在陸續在我們上次討論過的事情現在不用再重複因為時間很有限在更早的時間所發生的狀況再做一個說明我要強調的事情就是你看喔11月3號的時候我們要求你們來報告有關於延宕交付的部分"},{"start":668.146,"end":696.887,"text":"那實際上你們就是期程要到119年來正式完成那117年是教育那你應該你在11月3號專案報告你也要寫完整啊那否則的話其實要不是我看了10月1號跟11月3號我整合在一起看那我知道的資訊可能就只有一半而已所以我在這裡是我真的誠心希望我們在提供報告給大家的時候可以有橫平性、一致性跟完整性那不要讓我還要回去比對好不好"},{"start":697.828,"end":717.569,"text":"因為時間的關係我還是要針對軍購延宕的問題一個一個來跟大家來做討論主要的原因是因為庫布朗您先前講說我們延宕的金額是3000多億我想跟這個可能很多包含是美方的智庫或是很多人的計算是不一樣的"},{"start":718.029,"end":738.942,"text":"那可能計算的方法不一樣也會使得它有落差所以乾脆26案我們一個一個來問今天我絕對是時間不夠的但是我之後還會一直碰到您所以呢我沒有問完的部分我會接著繼續問來我們先看一下26案裡面來第一個我就把這一張那個主席給我一點時間我把這一張先問完就好了"},{"start":739.562,"end":757.107,"text":"那想問一下這個F16V這個你們應該已經講過了2480億台幣的部分呢那這個它是2480億嘛那截至目前的狀況是沒有任何一台來嘛這個我們是知道的然後付出了這個1440億到我們的這個結會的戶頭裡面這個沒有錯吧"},{"start":762.265,"end":772.796,"text":"我check一下我們匯到我們的FRB的帳戶裡面應該是47多那實際付款給實際付款給廠商的金額應該是32.5億美金"},{"start":782.485,"end":802.133,"text":"請大家以後如果我們上面寫的是台幣我們在中華民國我們就講台幣好不好因為可能要你們換算你們覺得麻煩但是因為我們這個媒體記者很多新聞還有看直播的好朋友們我們市民朋友要寫你總不能叫他去換算所以以後我們這邊講的台幣就請你們回台幣不要給我回美金不然我講2480你講30幾然後48聽起來好像很少不是這是美金"},{"start":806.115,"end":813.217,"text":"那第二個部分就是M1A2T的這個戰車那請問他目前我們當時是採購金額以及現在的交貨情況當初原本是編列390餘億元採購108輛M1A2T戰車加上他的附屬車輛跟裝備總共總額會是多少"},{"start":833.137,"end":854.852,"text":"總預算是405就是390余億的雙倍款加上附屬國內的配額款OK好那我們助理記一下因為我們今天的這個表格的這個來源是來自於我們媒體的報導以及這個幾個重點的單位那如果有不對的地方那也請做指教包圍那個620是智慧國會價格"},{"start":855.933,"end":883.949,"text":"OK 好 所以最後沒有問題你就告訴我們因為我們也希望幫你們更正這些相關的內容嘛那這樣子的話我們才能夠真正算出來一個完整的數字嘛因為先前我們在上一次的時候你們是提供三個大項目嘛可是實際上我們對美的採購是有26項所以我想一項一項知道那了解清楚之後呢那大家就更知道說到底發生什麼事所以您可以再講一次我們MYA2T最後的我們的這個金額是您剛說是多少"},{"start":885.152,"end":910.819,"text":"我们原编的预算是405亿这是原编预算那知会国会的时候他出现了一个600余亿的金额可是第一版发架书出来的时候他直接降到499余亿所以最后我们是用499余亿的这个金额来去做抬购这个额度目前经过"},{"start":912.974,"end":939.816,"text":"數年的調整之後目前從499拉到最遠目前是拉到453億好 453億你就直接回答正確數字就好了那請問目前交貨的狀況呢我們採購的量數以及交貨的量數目前第一批跟第二批已經交了80樣現在剩下最後一批的28量預化在明年的第一季就會交裝"},{"start":940.596,"end":969.61,"text":"所以剩下是還有28輛還沒有來嘛好所以呢我們可以看一下因為媒體報導這邊是總共有108輛那顯然您剛剛說是20幾輛我們就繼續往下那主席不好意思我還有三個我把它一次問完這一頁不然我後面好像未來還有很多頁那請大家就簡短回答好不好F16的這個紅外線搜尋追蹤夾艙的部分我們是跟對方採購的金額是多少"},{"start":973.706,"end":976.115,"text":"然後還有我們交貨的目前情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":982.938,"end":993.985,"text":"我們16V的這個夾艙的部分他不是只有夾艙他還包含了武器彈藥總金額是428億2000萬元你把它算在一起嘛428億2000萬元那請問來的交付的狀況是如何現在這個案子只完成預約階段只有預約階段好沒有問題那MS110夾艙的部分MS111夾艙他已經完成產製目前正在測評"},{"start":1013.138,"end":1025.004,"text":"正在測評 那交付的情況呢 零年底就會交付年底要全數交付那我們買了幾件沒有 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请院长有请院长"},{"start":8.623,"end":35.564,"text":"院長好院長我們今年的總預算因為受到這個在野黨大幅的這個刪減其實很多部會呢在業務執行上都受到非常大的影響故宮也是深受其害這一次呢我們故宮我們的文物我們的國寶到捷克其實捷克這個國家對我們非常的友善也非常的重視他們為了順利能夠讓那個翠意白菜外展但去年他們完成了司法免扣押的這個法律修正案"},{"start":36.324,"end":54.568,"text":"在這個展覽開幕式上其實捷克很多重要的政府官員也都有出席像參議院的院長韋德齊之前來過台灣的這個眾議院院長艾達莫瓦還有文化部環境部的首長以及捷克國家博物館的館長盧卡齊都親自出席"},{"start":57.189,"end":76.169,"text":"館長還以我們的翠玉白菜是跟盧浮宮的蒙娜麗莎是同等的地位這樣來相比可見是對我們是非常的重視而且館長有表達說在我們故宮展結束之後他會親自的壓陣將我們的國寶送回來我們台灣"},{"start":77.819,"end":104.853,"text":"所以可見這次捷克外展是非常重要他們是非常重視的但是故宮卻因為預算刪減的緣故導致我們只有四位人員出席包含蕭院長 副院長及兩位部展人員這麼重要的一個展竟然只有四個人可以去其中我們正副院長的住宿機票費是捷克國家博物館支應的"},{"start":105.453,"end":131.556,"text":"那我们两位部长能源呢其中一位的所有费用那另外一位的部分旅费是用故宫的赞助款来支应也就是说故宫的预算没有办法支应这一场这么重要的文物外交计划这真的是非常离谱非常糟糕的事情哦院长我们接下来还有一个法国的外展我们会不会也遇到这样的状况会不会有预算不足的这个状况"},{"start":133.279,"end":140.553,"text":"根文報告就是基本上來講的話國際文化交流屆展單位他們負擔"},{"start":143.897,"end":162.878,"text":"運輸保險 然後部轉人力跟部分的開幕的貴賓這是一個常態當然這中間的話所以這是一個領域對 這是一個領域 這是一個常態當然沒有規定說一定是幾位而是去衡量整個工作的一個狀態"},{"start":164.045,"end":179.071,"text":"那這一次的話有兩位人演用故宮自己本身的贊助款是因為延時的展覽的時候沒有估計到數位展所以這一次的話有數位展見所以數位展見的話基本上來講的話他就"},{"start":180.487,"end":194.308,"text":"額外的人力需求所以我們就是有兩位的數位展的一個策展人員然後用我們自己的贊助經費去所以會用到贊助經費也表示說是不是本來的預算是不足的才需要這樣來支應"},{"start":196.919,"end":220.528,"text":"也不盡然因為原來並沒有估列那個數位展那當然就是說如果在沒有刪減的情況之下故宮的確可以用我們的年度預算來支應那接下來法國的外展呢一樣如果以主管級的話會有禮遇那如果一起出去的這些助理或是助理研究員的話"},{"start":220.968,"end":248.786,"text":"目前的话就是布展人员有五位这是由画房那边支应的那当然就是说我跟副院长是开幕也是由他们来支应的这以法国的状况是这样反而去法国的话是会有五位布展人员在在对那个捷克的时候一样有布展人员只是说他们先押印过去布完展以后他们就先回来"},{"start":249.488,"end":262.564,"text":"那就是開幕當天就是政府院長他們就已經回來了他們已經回來了那在跨國的時候其實也是一樣就是不展人員先去不好展然後他們就回來然後我跟副院長的話會去參加那個開幕對"},{"start":265.928,"end":270.152,"text":"故宮作為世界級的博物館如果說我們因為預算遭到大幅刪減的緣故導致我們業務沒有辦法很妥善的執行我們有一個這麼難得到國外展覽的機會如果因為預算不足沒有辦法廣為宣傳這對我們這麼難得的這個文化外交真的是一個很大的損失"},{"start":285.006,"end":299.295,"text":"所以在這邊真的也要呼籲在元委員我們要了解行政機關的難處不要一再為難為台灣做事為國家做事的人那這次院長您到捷克也有邀請捷克的文物來台灣展出那目前有正式的規劃嗎"},{"start":300.969,"end":327.455,"text":"我們討論很久因為捷克自從跟我們有密切交流之後他們其實很多的展覽活動提出怎麼樣更好的就更高端的一個展品來我們還在討論在展覽結束之後Lucas館長會押印文物回台的時候那時候的話我們會有一個正式的討論定案就是展覽的主題方向跟大概的內容"},{"start":328.189,"end":348.8,"text":"所以要等到我們的展出結束館長也來到我們台灣的時候再一起來討論好那接下來我要請教院長這次翠玉白菜在捷克展出期間有多個行政機關受到威脅性幫我一下陸委會文化部總統府那內容大多是針對翠玉白菜的安全進行相關的恐嚇威脅"},{"start":349.56,"end":373.025,"text":"那請問院長我們有沒有掌握到說去了解這些祭出恐嚇性威脅性的是同一個人還是不同的人犯案這目前我們有訊息嗎依照恐嚇的信件的話他基本上來講的話他就是用那個跳島的方式所以有從加拿大有從不同的地區所以我們沒有辦法去"},{"start":375.787,"end":399.402,"text":"證實是不是同一個人但是捷克跟台灣雙方的話我們就透過管道在監控這件事情因為故宮你們這邊也有回覆說已經延長緊急應變的措施那也有請捷克加強展覽的安全維護那故宮目前跟捷克也建立這個雙方的溝通管道請問這樣的管道是隨時有狀況可以保持是暢通的嗎"},{"start":401.331,"end":418.305,"text":"這個管道隨時暢通因為現在通聯的方式有很多種所以隨時有問題的話不管是用電話或是用視訊的話馬上都可以處理那麼後續在展覽完畢之後我們相關的維安會不會也有進行這些級別的提升"},{"start":420.311,"end":433.477,"text":"事實上去捷克的話就是包括去法國的話他們都有保全戒護跟台灣一樣就是說我們文物運輸然後整個運送過程的話都有相當的一個維安措施"},{"start":434.229,"end":457.718,"text":"其實翠玉白菜出國出訪真的是很不容易國人覺得這是一件很重要的事情但是同時也會擔心我們翠玉白菜的安全那所以說關於這個部分我也希望說故宮這邊我們要上緊發條對這個安全在維安部分要特別特別的能掌握各種訊息讓我們的翠玉白菜可以安全的回到我們台灣"},{"start":458.678,"end":473.991,"text":"那台灣現在透過各種文化的活動進行國際交流包括像文化部外交部那故宮當然也很積極的在國際間做這個交流的這個策展那我們台灣的文化跟我國的國寶可以走進世界"},{"start":474.471,"end":491.363,"text":"但現在目前中國是用在國際間強調文化正統性來阻擋我們跟其他國家進行文化交流甚至說我們故宮的藏品立刻到北京展出我想請教院長北京故宮有透露出相關邀展的訊息嗎"},{"start":494.408,"end":516.423,"text":"過去好像曾經有過但是在我任內的話並沒有這樣的一個信息那過去的話兩岸的文物的話的確曾經河流像那個富春山基土但是故宮的文物要去北京展覽的話就是因為司法免扣押跟名稱宰屍的問題這個問題的話都沒有辦法解決所以目前的話是並沒有可能性"},{"start":517.455,"end":525.927,"text":"部長您覺得中國他在國際間一直強調文化正統這樣子的一個手法會不會影響到我們跟民主國家之間的文化交流"},{"start":527.779,"end":555.721,"text":"我想我們的外交處境大家都知道很辛苦所以故宮博焱還是竭盡最大的力量然後把故宮的文物推展出去然後去達成一個跟國外交流的目的但是也不會因為說故宮的文物出去的話就是產生誤解說這是北京故宮因為北京故宮跟台北故宮的話大家都可以分辨得非常清楚"},{"start":557.363,"end":567.696,"text":"院长您说故宫现在也很积极的在跟规划其他国家的互动跟交流我们在捷克跟法国的展览之后有没有规划其他国家进行相关的展览"},{"start":570.02,"end":594.994,"text":"展覽的洽談的話我們一直都在進行之中那因為還沒有明確就是甚至彼此雙方還沒有同意釋放訊息之前的話原則上的話我們還是繼續努力好的就是繼續有在規劃那本席也希望說我們故宮在民主國家間的這個進行交流這個文化交流不應該陷入所謂的什麼文化正統的這種論調"},{"start":596.095,"end":612.878,"text":"那聚焦在民主國家間的合作友好這才是我們台灣在國際間不可替代的論點這個部分我也相信故宮在這個立場上剛才院長您的回答我也覺得說是很正向的我們要堅持我們自己本身的立場"},{"start":613.479,"end":638.595,"text":"那外来的这些威胁外来这些恐吓其实我们有我们自己的一个方式我们去拒绝它我们自己去我们可以守护自己的文物的安全那接下来我时间到但是我跟您提一下关于这个大都会展览负评比较多的这个部分我希望说我大概讲一下那你会后给我一个你们的报告"},{"start":639.255,"end":668.024,"text":"就是在觀展動線不佳展廳狹小那人潮為了拍照駐足在畫前會造成人潮的這個堵塞那人潮沒有控管好排隊的人潮在假日的時候甚至排到二樓了還繞了很多圈再來是一個現場在現場發生的問題畫作投射的燈光不佳造成畫作有陰影那這個部分是在場觀展的民眾直接反映但是沒有得到改善"},{"start":668.484,"end":687.332,"text":"所以希望这些相关的这些讯息你们在策展的时候就应该要有这样子的就是滚动检讨的机制但是并没有历史的得到改善所以希望说这个经验提供你们日后在策展的时候给你们参考就是民众有这样子的"},{"start":687.712,"end":704.038,"text":"跟我們報告一下燈光的問題的話是當初是那個美方的人員他們自己來調整的當然觀眾反應之後我親自找同仁去處理的話其實燈光基本上來講的話應該說已經改善了沒有後面的那些問題"},{"start":705.638,"end":726.749,"text":"因為十一度媒體也把這個作品在大都會博物館展出的情況拿給我們看基本上來講的話它也是有陰影因為印象派的畫框比較厚所以對他們來講的話美方的人員認為說那是正常的可是在台灣的民眾的話基本上我們要求比較高所以這個基本上來講的話就是當時"},{"start":728.19,"end":750.348,"text":"有这样的反应之后我们去处理已经调整了动线少的话当然就是动线难的话一方面就是因为人潮太多那因为策展的方式的话也依照美方他们的一个规划所以在合约里面的话如果没有只能他们自己亲自动的话我们不能动但是我们可以提供意见吗"},{"start":750.948,"end":771.96,"text":"對我們有提供意見可是我們盡量就是去疏導人流然後排隊排到樓上的話也是因為人潮太多因為我們不希望說在外面排隊所以讓他就是往二樓三樓上面去排隊基本上來講的話是提供一個觀眾更素素的一個參加環境但是因為人流控管的話因為人潮太多基本上來講的話這是展廳不夠大"},{"start":776.403,"end":799.364,"text":"我们可以造成民众很愿意去观展这是一个好事但是对于这样的动线规划对于我们整个的展场的动线跟空间的规划我想这是一个很重要的参考日后我们有这样子的展览的时候我们作为一个依据我们给民众提供一个比较舒适的观展的感受"},{"start":799.972,"end":815.028,"text":"是 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有請顧部長 謝謝請顧部長部長好 今天最主要是跟無人機的部件策略有關係我先從這邊問起因為這就是大概前陣子的事情而已比利時的空軍基地也是"},{"start":25.601,"end":48.348,"text":"遭到這一個無人機的騷擾他們有兩天他們第一天是小型的無人機先過去偵測偵測頻率知道頻率之後第二天再用這一個大型無人機騷擾他第二天的時候就導致因為他第一天已經先去測過了所以導致第二天這一個要用干擾器要去影響他的時候結果這個比利時這邊就失敗了"},{"start":48.988,"end":66.235,"text":"那所以這邊呢就是第一個問題就是說這一個它比較特別就在於說我們現在面臨到這個所謂的灰色地帶作戰那過往我們都遇到的都是這個從中國過來的一些騷擾不管是從海域 從空軍但像比利時這個遇到的它就是直接是在境內"},{"start":67.055,"end":79.59,"text":"當然它到底是原因什麼這個我們並不是那麼清楚但是有兩個問題就是第一個就是像這種的有第一天 第二天藉由這樣的一個方式去破壞干擾系統那目前我們應對的方式是什麼這個"},{"start":88.192,"end":103.753,"text":"報告委員我是作為機師的次長當然整體無人機的防禦是整體性的考量如同剛剛委員講我們有主動被動軟煞跟硬煞的作為因此在機場除了這個主動的偵測也有被動的偵測那針對它的頻段也區分為訓練"},{"start":107.077,"end":133.712,"text":"戰備商用等各式的評斷那會做依照當時的狀況去做彈性上的調整對這個看起來是屬於這種跟商用有關的這種干擾但是我們想知道的事情就是說因為這比較新型態對不對就是說它分成兩天第一天先把它偵測然後偵測完之後呢第二天讓你很難以干擾那這個事情如果我們遇到的話呢我們的比如說我們的SOP的作為是什麼我們不需要詳細但是我們有沒有這樣的一些規劃"},{"start":135.769,"end":164.69,"text":"就是从前面我们以前所定定部队的反应处置机制就是所谓的识别监控告警通报然后再来是驱离以及后续的相关的监控作为它是有一个部队应处的规范这个是本来就有的嘛本来就有这个规范但我的意思就是说我们应该要把这种比较新形态的这种干扰放进来就是说因为它的方式变得不一样然后第二个就是说呢像你刚刚讲到比如说我们有有侦测然后再来我们可能要做急落等等之类的"},{"start":165.134,"end":182.446,"text":"第一個我們偵測的這個範圍到底夠不夠我知道我們之前這一個我們中科院有一個說它這個預警可以到5公里的或是我們本來也有原來的本來就有4公里就是我們本來就有這些規劃嘛對不對但是我們偵測之後呢我們的這個範圍到底呢跟我們的擊殺的範圍能不能合在一起這也是一個問題嘛"},{"start":183.306,"end":206.118,"text":"然後更不要講說就是後面這是這一個比利時的將軍他自己提到的在下面這邊他就講說第一個當時他們遇到這個事情的時候呢干擾器失效就是我剛剛講的他分成兩天嘛第二個就是說呢因為畢竟附近就是有民宅如果是因為他是空軍基地被騷擾嘛如果是在基地內的話呢當然極洛對他們講比較沒有問題但有時候是在基地周圍就是就跟我們講灰色地帶干擾一樣"},{"start":207.399,"end":224.282,"text":"周圍的時候就要考量到一般的民眾可能會殘骸可能會導致有人受傷就是說那我們針對像後面這件事情我們有沒有相關的這些應處的方式假設今天是我們遇到了台灣很密集就是說附近有沒有這些所謂的有可能會影響到的這個範圍"},{"start":225.123,"end":251.749,"text":"抱怨我們整個無人機的防範如果在機場周邊的話其實我們會結合民航局的航警我們現在的偵測系統甚至能夠定位到操作者他所在的位置的柱子那因此可以通報所在地的警察或者是由機場的航警來去協助查緝那我們目前是用這種不管是用國軍自己的反制系統還有結合民航站的航警的這種查緝的方式來去做防範"},{"start":252.789,"end":274.127,"text":"那剛剛委員指導的這個新型態的這種攻擊式的變化我們也持續在掌握未來納入突發狀況處置規定裡面來做持續的修訂以利部隊去做有效的應處對 這個突發狀況第一個就是突發狀況的這個處置規定它應該要再細緻化因為新型態的看起來太多了這只是就是近期的一個報導我看到之後就想說那如果台灣發生了我們該怎麼辦對不對 第一個"},{"start":274.847,"end":298.793,"text":"但第二個就是你剛剛提到的因為有時候呢它譬如說它不在基地內它在基地外然後呢你們可能在偵測的時候呢發現可能不管是操作者在哪裡啊等等之類的去通報我們的航警或者是通報我們的警察這個呢其實在我們前幾大概四月五月六月的時候呢有發生過這個其實我們私底下也已經問過你們一次了就是說在這個四五六月的時候呢有人在這個新竹的這個機場拍到這個無人機"},{"start":301.574,"end":315.585,"text":"那時候我們詢問之後發現它就是屬於我剛剛講的在基地外在基地外這個時候的處理方式就是去通報警察但現在問題來就是我們的警察有沒有足夠的設備去對應這樣的狀況"},{"start":327.622,"end":348.88,"text":"那針對您的這個問題我們在有好幾個機率都發生過在營外那警察的配備我們目前了解他跟我們一樣是有干擾槍的這個配備但是因為我們有做通報那有偵測到他的方位所以說警察大部分出去之後是以目視的方式來做一個搜索就是說顯然他的設備可能還是不太夠"},{"start":349.8,"end":377.397,"text":"對 就算能量絕對不如國軍所以有時候就是變成這灰色地帶的問題對方 我們不知道對方到底是誰對方到底是我們是內部的是在立協力者還是有人在玩飛機這種我們不知道但是如果今天對方的配備是夠好的我們警察這邊是不夠的話那顯然因為國軍因為國軍今天按照要塞堡壘法的規定有這個第一區第二區對不對結果你們在這一個範圍之外你們想說這個交給警察處理但警察這邊的配備可能是不夠的"},{"start":378.317,"end":406.375,"text":"第一個配備不夠我們可以在譬如說我們在內政委會的時候我們可以請他在預算上面加強這還可以做但偵查這個部分就是情報交換這個部分就剛剛提到的中科院的可以到五公里嘛可以到五公里就是說我們能不能夠協助就是說今天國軍能夠偵測的能夠一樣能夠分享給警察這個分享的系統是長什麼樣子至少你可以去補足他的不足嘛所以這個補足的這個機制目前來講整體的規劃大概是什麼"},{"start":407.53,"end":417.714,"text":"有關這個我們把它講成區域聯防的這種整體規劃就是包含軍方民方還有CIA重要關鍵基礎設施的這些我們正在把它規劃中會在"},{"start":419.977,"end":437.922,"text":"好 那這個我們在這個我們有時間的話我們來討論一下這整體的基礎好不好另外剛剛委員長講的就是在基地附近我們考慮到對民財造成傷害目前有兩種技術我們也正在發展也會很快的引入第一個就是接管Takeover我直接接管它的控制權第二種就是用橋展"},{"start":439.362,"end":452.057,"text":"就是鏟腳的方式因為大部分是FPV它是旋翼式的我鏟腳它以後讓它失去動力我是用一個降落傘讓它緩降也不會對一般區域造成傷害這都是我們現有正在接觸和發展的技術"},{"start":454.399,"end":479.3,"text":"這個剛好就讓我想到就是說你剛剛講到這一個因為這個可惜式的這一次的這個案子其實也有講到這個接管就是說你今天在入關你不管是我應該是有放在下一張就是說我們這一次這一個115年這一個陸軍司令部有一個這一個採購計畫清單這個是還沒有還沒有成這個是還沒有編入預算對不對就我所知這個應該還沒有還沒有 對但這個裡面在講到的地方其實就有剛剛你講到的這個takeover"},{"start":481.081,"end":492.54,"text":"但是因為接管某種程度是需要一些資料庫的比對那現在我們我們在做這件事情的時候我們對於資料庫的比對資料庫的建置這件事情有沒有同步進行"},{"start":496.245,"end":516.111,"text":"這個資料庫的建置是一定要同步進行而且要不斷持續去更新因為它如果沒有更新的話變成說你資料庫不足你資料庫不足你就做不到接管這件事情所以這個部分我們可能之後如果這個有成案的話這個會是我們釘的一個蠻大的一個重點不然的話就等於說你有這個系統你有這個偵測的範圍就你要接管的時候你接管不了那就沒有任何意義"},{"start":517.071,"end":529.285,"text":"好 那這個我後面因為這個我後面還有一些問題這個我晚點再講但是因為時間的關係我先問一下這個昨天這是另外一件事情就是靶場的問題因為我昨天剛好就是這個朋友跟我回報這個是桃園的市議會"},{"start":532.208,"end":557.305,"text":"桃園市議會他們幾個議員他們在發言的時候就講到說這一個中立龍崗要增建市內的靶場的問題這一個是看起來是確實本來那邊因為那邊本來就有基地可能會有一些靶場的訓練有沒有跟居民溝通什麼這個我先擺在一邊但是我在過程當中我看到當地的議員在講說這搞不好這邊以後就會有彈藥庫了"},{"start":558.746,"end":584.753,"text":"然後就把這個東西開始往外擴散擴散之後呢這個時候甚至是有人把它引用說以後國軍要這邊做彈藥庫那我們以後這邊這個戰爭的時候我們就可能會被打我們要怎麼辦這個對我來講就是這是一個在地方上散播的謠言這個謠言很明顯的看起來會對國軍造成影響但是國軍有沒有辦法在第一時間因為這是在地方政府層級發生的事情但請問國軍對這件事情的回應是什麼"},{"start":588.905,"end":607.174,"text":"彈藥庫這件事情包委員沒有在這邊要建立彈藥庫的規劃這個也請六軍團持續的向桃園的這些議員還有里長來持續的做溝通因為我覺得當然溝通是有必要的這個是一定的"},{"start":607.634,"end":635.335,"text":"但是因為如果說在前期的溝通假設是不足的時候你看地方的議員就會站在那邊我覺得這種謠言其實是很傷就是說我們最近大家對於國軍的信心當然是越來越好這個國軍的形象等等之類的但是你看在地方上如果是這樣的謠言而且還是透過議員的口聲這樣講出來那這個其實對這國軍如果沒有第一時間強力的回應說我們並沒有這樣的事情的話這個會造成問題所以拜託就是說這一類的事情以後呢這個"},{"start":636.716,"end":661.205,"text":"不要說回報因為應該就是要主動要知道說在地方上有沒有這樣的一些謠言在散播而這個謠言散播的時候呢有沒有有利的一個回擊我認為這個對國軍是非常重要的事情但是拉回來講就是我們回到我們不要彈藥庫沒有嘛但是靶場這件事情因為對附近的居民大概有幾萬人嘛然後他怕說有噪音啊或什麼等等之類的那這件事情的溝通呢"},{"start":662.066,"end":667.751,"text":"為什麼在那邊要設靶場那個靶場的重要性是什麼然後以及這個溝通的過程是什麼可以稍微說明一下包委員我也很了解在這個很多傳統的靶場它基本上還是有噪音還有也有可能流彈的風險所以我們參考世界各國訓練上的需要我們也朝向室內靶場的一個需求來建置那當然"},{"start":687.208,"end":709.085,"text":"室內靶場他包含到全天候不受天候的效益而且更能增加這些訓練的時數那所以基本上我們的確有規劃在這個我們自己的龍崗訓場上面去建置但是他先期的建案程序裡面必須先做一個可行性的評估那我們現在做的階段就是有關於這個先期規劃的現在還在可行性評估"},{"start":710.726,"end":729.609,"text":"大概要到明年的上半年底肯定性評估出來這一段期間我們還是會就適時的現況持續的跟地方尊您的指導我們會持續的來做溝通說明因為可行性的評估如果現在還在做的話那過程當中第一個因為說真的根本就沒有彈藥庫嗎"},{"start":730.51,"end":753.241,"text":"所以其實沒有那個恐懼那如果只是單純的這個訓練這個照理說對國軍來講這天經地義嘛這保衛國家所必要的一個訓練所以噪音的部分如果有居民的關注針對噪音的部分我看那個佔地那麼大如果室內靶場這個如果是做得好這個你說噪音我覺得可能也還好但是總之就是需要去溝通嘛溝通完之後呢也可以阻止像類似的這個謠言的散播啦"},{"start":753.946,"end":775.961,"text":"我想跟各位報告就是說第一個沒有任何興建彈藥庫的一個規劃這是第一點那第二點就是說就我跟陸軍了解就是說他要在明年六月底前要完成一個可行性評估那我們就這個可行性評估還要看他的報告是如何那另外就是說我們會持續跟地方來溝通協調那取得這個"},{"start":776.981,"end":790.287,"text":"地方的理解我們當然也要兼顧整個戰備訓練跟民眾的權益這個我們會綜合來評估考量也就是說現在還沒有一個定案那就再拜託了謝謝部長 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那我想那個剛剛我特別提到這個萬博我想那個也可以從這個萬博的經驗成為這個文化外交的一個固定的夥伴我想這個故宮也可以往這樣子的一個方向去努力但是我想除了我剛剛所提到的我們關心就是國際上的一個展覽我們當然也關心展覽背後的一個最重要的基礎就是我們的文物保護的一個問題"},{"start":203.624,"end":217.26,"text":"那我想這個近期國際接連發生所謂的博物館的安全的一事件不管是羅浮宮也好它在嚴密的一個防護之下仍然發生了非常重大的一個竊盜案"},{"start":218.601,"end":247.621,"text":"那另外呢包含我們在這個捷克國家博物館因為也有展出我們總共131組的一個珍貴的文物那麼包含翠玉白菜在內喔那接連也收到了所謂的縱火啦槍擊等等惡意的一些威脅啦那我想呢 故宮資產的一個保護已經不是只有我們自己本身管理的一個問題甚至也是延伸到所謂的國家安全的一個議題啦那我想呢在這個這場這個外展喔在事前"},{"start":248.001,"end":269.528,"text":"我們有沒有做過跨部會的一個動態風險的一個評估那在這個捷克的這次的展覽有沒有由國安 外交 文化三方共定最高等級的一個安全的計畫這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說當捷克他們出現了這些所謂的黑函恐嚇性的時候我們故宮除了發表了三項聲明以外"},{"start":270.188,"end":294.554,"text":"那有沒有跟捷克國家博物館要求更加的嚴格的管理那未來如果還有類似比方說我們到日本或者是我們到美國去潛在這些所謂的合作然後來策展或是展覽那如果碰到類似突發的一些威脅我們有沒有一個制度化的流程可以來做管理"},{"start":296.458,"end":318.129,"text":"跟委員報告就是故宮的出訪的一個交流基本上來講不是第一次所以過去的話都是用一種單純的文化交流的角度然後必要的國際規格的安全防護我們都會處理但是的確就是有兩件新的一個突發狀況一個就是那個"},{"start":321.371,"end":339.72,"text":"受到恐攻另外一個的話就是因為外館有失竊油管有失竊的一個現象所以就產生一個新的議題當然故宮文路的話出國不是故宮博物院可以就單純決定因為我們要送到文資局文資委員評議之後由文化部報行之言同意才可以出國"},{"start":341.228,"end":360.521,"text":"那未來的話當然就是因為這樣的現象未來文物在出國的時候我們會有更嚴謹的一個評鑑包括我也只是同仁就是不是只有出國展覽就算在國內的展覽的話它的那個風險評估的話要納為我們出展的一個重要的"},{"start":361.041,"end":389.469,"text":"要像所以這一次的話譬如說我們要去那個南陽博物館的話包括交通的風險評估我們都會納入就是說要走哪一條路然後怎麼要管控這個我們都會來處理好為什麼我要特別提這一點因為10月21號卓榮他的院長也特別提到了就是針對五大威脅的一個國安的17項措施當中那也包含了這個故宮博物院在內的一些關鍵基礎的一個設施其實早就已經在做了"},{"start":389.969,"end":405.459,"text":"那針對這個部分其實也是應該也有相關的一個進程那另外就是說剛剛院長有特別提到其實不是只有在國外其實在國內那麼包含雖然我們已經有強化這個RFID的一個管理"},{"start":405.879,"end":426.744,"text":"但是內部的內控的問題其實也是要同步的升級那麼包含人員的一個審查的一個機制的外包廠商的一個資格甚至夜間巡邏或者是修應該是說維修通報的一個機制其實都應該要有一個明確的標準然後那我想這個部分也是我們要特別特別小心注意的那我想呢"},{"start":427.944,"end":445.118,"text":"接下來我要問的就是人力的部分我想去年其實上個會期包含今年5月其實我也特別提到剛剛吳麗華委員也特別提到就是實習制度欠缺誘因那怎麼樣能夠這個攜接這樣的機制從制度面來改善這個人才的一個流用"},{"start":445.598,"end":466.058,"text":"我想故宮典藏了將近有70萬件的一個文物但是我們的庫房的編制的人員只有50人這平均每一個人可能要管理14000件那麼包含這個技工臨時人力在內我想這是明顯的一個不足這個部分其實在過去多次我也都有在這邊質詢過我們的院長"},{"start":466.698,"end":480.251,"text":"目前為止我們有沒有最新的一些計畫或者是在人力的補充上面或是修復人力的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個新的計畫能夠來做培育或者是能夠解決當前這個員額不足的一個問題各位報告"},{"start":482.913,"end":502.239,"text":"故宮的話就是編制的修復人員是16位沒有錯可是我們文物藝皇保存的人力基本上來講的話包括相關的研究人員加起來的話其實我們維護文物的人力不能用單純的修復人員去計算"},{"start":502.739,"end":520.08,"text":"那因為紋路的維護的話也不是說像那個車庫裡面汽車每天都要給他雞媽蛋子蛋一蛋因為紋路有狀況的時候我們才會處理那今年的話就是明年的話紋路有狀況的時候才要處理那沒有預防性的維護嗎"},{"start":521.261,"end":544.916,"text":"而預防性的維護就是紋路如果狀況穩定的話基本上我們不去動它了解好那我想因為今年又剛好 今年會增加一個基金的聘用的人員明年會增加兩位基金聘用的人員我們有跟行政院爭取11位人力可是沒有準所以我們就是基金今年聘一位明年聘"},{"start":545.676,"end":570.454,"text":"兩位那如果說我們的那個基金的研議有的話那後來的話我們會繼續來增加好那我想的今年就是剛好碰到這個百年的願慶我想這個修復是不是的修復的一些需求因為現在又有這個我們的北院跟南院那這個人力的部分如果出現了斷層出現了警訊那這個部分我想也應該要來積極的往這個部分去研議"},{"start":571.135,"end":595.969,"text":"那如果有相关更近期的一些,不管是刚刚有提到,因为其实五月的时候,这个院长也有特别提到,就是用基金能够来这个补补,然后来增加这个人力的部分,如果有确实的话,那麻烦把详细的一些资料再提供给我办公室作为参考,可以吗?是,是,可以,没有问题。好,谢谢,谢谢院长,谢谢主席。谢谢郭益勤委员咨询院长,请回座。"}]}},{"id":"165155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c5323b945bef7cb5bb96356aa020e99bb422b881fe7d28f45b3e2e9b7fa15091f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:45:25 - 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誠如剛剛我們副教授所講的就是因為它有跨部會以及有那麼多方方面面的面向必須要處理 必須要面對 必須要管理也因此才真的需要有一個貫穿的專法來去做一個最基礎平衡的保障而不是只是單靠單一部會的指引我想這是大家都可以理解跟認同的"},{"start":36.713,"end":61.568,"text":"外送專法他不是只是針對外送員不是針對外送平台還有包括餐廳跟消費者我常講說這是一個生態鏈因為我必須先開宗明義講我必須要先肯定一下這個當初會想出這個idea的人其實外送平台這樣的一個新興的商業模式也真的是蠻了不起的他會想出這樣的一個商業模式之後短時間內風靡世界各國"},{"start":64.23,"end":81.53,"text":"但是就是因為這樣的一個商業模式造成出來之後運行了幾年我們發覺生態系已經有點失衡了變成是一強三弱的一個狀況外送平台相對來講是比較強勢而消費者餐廳以及外送員分別相對來講對應是相對比較弱勢的"},{"start":84.173,"end":110.129,"text":"可是這絕對不是一個健康的一個概念跟健康的一個環境所以我的期待絕對不是只是對單一的族群有利而是希望能夠達到四足鼎立讓這樣的一個商業模式可長可久任何一個在這個範圍裡面的族群都可以充分獲得它各自的合理的利益我覺得這才是良善因為我們整個會議室裡面"},{"start":111.03,"end":118.338,"text":"大家也許不一定是外送員有外送員有餐廳代表有平台代表但更重要我們每一個人也都是潛在消費者"},{"start":119.266,"end":140.699,"text":"所以我們已經談論非常多但是在這邊因為今天是公聽會我就不太講我們細部的法條的部分但我從第九屆第十屆我們一直鼓吹倡議甚至第十屆我們提出外送平台外送專法到現在第十一屆真的能夠來去做實質的討論我肯定我們的主席廖主席"},{"start":141.636,"end":159.234,"text":"的用心但我們更希望是加速拿出版本可以做實質的討論在這個會期真的讓台灣的外送專法能夠正式上路而在外送專法正式上路的時候我跟今天在場的先進來承諾我一定會注意三個面向"},{"start":161.383,"end":189.653,"text":"規則要公開透明第二彈性跟保障要兼顧以及第三專業訓練要足夠規則公開透明剛大家都講了最重要就是外送平台跟外送員主管機關是要明定中央勞動部地方地方政府並且定期召開會議讓政策能夠持續的有改善的空間跟對話的機會還有政府訂令契約範本並且每個月提供"},{"start":191.374,"end":203.27,"text":"报酬薪资报酬名系给外送员货款名系给合作平台让各方都可以理解你的资讯公开透明第二弹性跟保障要兼顾"},{"start":204.318,"end":227.886,"text":"之前大家都討論到底這樣子一個關係是屬於是雇傭關係或是非雇傭派遣關係但是看得出來世界各國現在的潮流跟趨勢可能在這兩方之間因為這個特殊的商業模式所以走出了第三條路但不管第三條路或者是沿襲之前的路重點是基本的保障一定要有也因此我們講說最基本的"},{"start":228.686,"end":254.062,"text":"保險或是職災保險都應該要有提供的一個機會並且還有要有建立申訴的管道不只是外送員對於外送平台的申訴管道甚至本席的版本提出來之後辦公室也接獲商家的建議我也認為這是很好的提醒就是除了外送員有申訴管道以外商家也常常因為訂單送單的爭議而造成有不合理的一個規則"},{"start":254.963,"end":275.068,"text":"那既然如此也應該要有給商家一個申訴的管道第三 專業訓練要足夠交通安全 食品安全以及重大的職災或是重大的車禍的時候都應該有通報的義務但另外一方面 外送員也需要接受最低比例的一個交通安全講習"},{"start":275.948,"end":301.093,"text":"因為大家也都是用路人所以我們也希望是能夠讓大家都在一個足夠的安全訓練下讓整體的環境能夠更整體環境更加提升還有更重要平台要落實消費者合作商家以及外送員的個資保障因為之前就發生過有大規模的個資外洩而到目前其實不瞞各位說本席辦公室的同仁也有"},{"start":303.066,"end":325.797,"text":"各自外泄的状况而到目前都还有深受其害所以我们讲的是这一个部分就是如同刚刚我们有先进讲到的他就不是只是单一部会的事情而是要跨部会那既然跨部会的话我们有明定主管机关但是各司其职各其他部会应该要负起责任的就应该要负起责任最后我想还是再一次强调"},{"start":327.199,"end":349.256,"text":"外送專法已經走到那麼久今天早上8點半的時候我們一起開記者會我想對於現在所有大家的期待我們都聽到在今年的7月26號之前我必須要說本席有深受感動的是我站在路口跟大家拜票的時候有看到很多的機車騎士經過都給我們最大的支持當然"},{"start":350.037,"end":378.187,"text":"大家的支持我們都一定會銘記在心但更重要的是我們要的是要幫所有的族群爭取到一個合格合理的環境絕對不是只是針對外送平台開刀但是現在的一強三弱的情況如果能夠因為外送專法的一個建立而讓氏族鼎立讓台灣整體的從業環境更加的完善我想這是我們共同的期待再次感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":382.793,"end":386.071,"text":"感謝洪峰愷委員發言那現在休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"165162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cbdfd16ff03481854b96356aa020e99bb614279fc610c108c55e27d19183d88005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:19:22 - 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Eats他片面宣布要調降外送員的報酬好像每一單至少降了19塊以上那勞動部雖然有發函要求暫停變更那理由是說這樣就被迫因為收入要降低所以被迫他多接單多接單表示什麼他在道路上的風險他工作的風險就是要提高的但Uber Eats並未理會"},{"start":157.854,"end":165.754,"text":"好劳动部的这个要求他反而他的说明变成了他是把部分烫制奖励转为基本费用绝非调降"},{"start":167.403,"end":188.938,"text":"但事實上外送員的薪水就是下降這個凸顯說法制化的必要性以及接單費的計算方式必須透明可預測而且要由第三方來驗證避免平台用各種名目來調整來降低報酬這個風險最後都是外送員自己要承擔第二個案例是停權的部分過去有外送員他的理由是因為讓顧客感到不適"},{"start":191.34,"end":213.826,"text":"不舒服那個不是過度眼神接觸 招平台無預警的停權雖然平台這個後續已經表示說恢復該外送員的這個接單的這個權限而且強調說有申訴管道但是這個已經反映了平台對於不是這種很模糊很主觀的指標判斷標準不明程序上也沒有即時有效的一個救濟"},{"start":214.506,"end":239.724,"text":"所以外送員就在沒有查證下他就直接被停權 剝奪工作權那這個期間他的生計怎麼辦呢所以顯示這個平台目前目前的申訴管道是虛設的需要有制度化的比例原則舉證責任以及快速復權機制來作為保障所以我們黨團的這個重點條文包括接單位計算方式要有外送平台跟同業工會外送平台的同業工會以及"},{"start":240.504,"end":267.322,"text":"相關工會 工會相關的工會來共同擬定剛剛邱老師也擔心說很多演算方法什麼好像條文都沒有進去但是如同我們處理方式在跟這個大家關心的護病餅一樣就是因為它很複雜在不同的地區ICU啦這個病房等等所以我們是要求一個審議委員會那個審議委員會有一半以上是這個護理人員那我們也是覺得他們來共同擬定那當然我們訂了基本原則這個基本費不得低於基本工資的三分之一"},{"start":267.962,"end":293.436,"text":"那平台業者必須建立有效的申訴管道來針對讓他們能夠停權啊違規來報酬有申訴的方式不能再用罐頭訊息來回答那另外關於保險各自保護還有職災通報我們也有相對應的規範我們希望到最後能夠大家一起理性討論規範一個對於外送員合作商家外送平台還有消費者都是一個四方權益都能夠獲得有保障的制度謝謝"},{"start":297.771,"end":303.358,"text":"謝謝 感謝陳昭資委員發言接下來請陳宏宇"}]}},{"id":"165161","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cbe6370665c3d62be91e8053ceea3e5d7614279fc610c108c058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:16:15 - 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各位委員 有請部長請郭部長部長好今天雖然不是跟你的職責 職長沒有直接關係了但是還是要先謝謝"},{"start":23.464,"end":45.664,"text":"這個花蓮光復馬太安溪淹涉浮潰壩造成重大的傷亡以及家戶社區部落土地這個農田非常大的損失這個摧毀土石的淹埋我們很多的國軍在那邊這個"},{"start":47.987,"end":62.322,"text":"支持救援救助非常非常的辛苦要代表謝謝我們所有的國軍那我們現在接下來還是要善後要去解決這個源頭"},{"start":66.946,"end":91.162,"text":"上次我在對卓院長的質詢的時候當然我沒有針對部長來質詢是針對農業部跟經濟部那我們現在來看這個國外的案例我們這個現在這個菸社府當然這個汽水的含量沒有像之前那麼大"},{"start":94.425,"end":120.04,"text":"這個造成的這些災害我們必須不要讓它再發生我們的國軍弟兄就可以不要再去那邊去救援所以我們看這個國際的三大案例第一個案例爆破開出人工易紅道這個是在蘇聯他們也是用這個"},{"start":121.966,"end":148.988,"text":"龐大的工程以軍事的力量決定來去協助這個當然每個案例不同所以這個是用爆破的方式那如果要爆破的話當然如果國軍能夠支援當然是一種方式當然是不是要用爆破當然由專業的團隊另外去評估那另外一個案例開挖為主並向爆破為輔"},{"start":150.77,"end":175.669,"text":"這個是這個大陸的一個方式他也是國軍來去協助那第三個案例完全用挖掘引流全部都用挖的這是美國的案例他是美國的陸軍工兵團他們去評估去評估 去協助 去了解整個狀況因為"},{"start":178.986,"end":201.256,"text":"這個台灣多山中央山脈或海岸山脈當然我們也要去對未來對未來國軍能夠更了解我們的山林恐怕也是非常重要所以在美國的這個案例他就是完全用挖掘"},{"start":202.554,"end":214.874,"text":"引流他也是用這個美國入軍的工兵團去評估之後然後怎麼樣去相關的人去包括機界因為"},{"start":216.65,"end":238.342,"text":"挖土机啊大家以为挖土机直接不好载运其实是可以组装的其实是可以组装的所以这个部分怎么样去能够去协助因为现在是组则组则的单位是农业部啊他们什么都没有啊农业部而且是林务级啊就是林业署啊"},{"start":239.698,"end":260.199,"text":"他們也不是這方面的專業他們也沒有相關很多的相關的這些設施包括這個直升機啊各方面他們都沒有啦所以這個部分當然內政部有一部分的直升機啦所以怎麼樣能夠共同的合作來去根本的去解決這個眼頭棉的"},{"start":263.22,"end":291.717,"text":"一地震或是一颱風又要產生這些危害都是我們要去避免的部分所以在這樣的一個情形之下這個就讓我們的這個看國防部哪些軍種哪些單位可以去共同的去協助協助這個農業部這個是我的一個建議事實上"},{"start":292.637,"end":317.764,"text":"以這個地形來講這個內政部的空巡總隊他們也上去過事實上這個地形也不是說完全都不能飛機不能直升機也不是完全都不能所以這個部分這個給國防部共同的去協助"},{"start":320.158,"end":330.81,"text":"農業部及相關包括這個內政部相關的單位部長這個你再請相關的單位去評估啦好不好可以嗎"},{"start":333.099,"end":352.021,"text":"我想國軍是作為一個協助的單位那這個應該要由這個專業的團隊去做完評估之後如果有需要國軍做協助的那國軍再根據這個評估再就我們這個能量所"},{"start":353.035,"end":370.292,"text":"量能所及的這個範圍之內去做協助因為現在農業部他因為沒有相關的這些設施設備他就用他只能做的方式就是把現有的林道拓寬"},{"start":371.857,"end":390.506,"text":"把現有的兩個林道望榮林道跟光復林道要拓寬那我認為這樣的做法是當然是其中一種做法但是我認為會對山林的水土的保持可能也有很大的影響所以我才會說國防部能夠去協助"},{"start":391.227,"end":409.177,"text":"協助的話所以我想專業團隊評估是一件事國軍如何協助是一件事所以評估這件事情還是要由專業團隊來進行國軍是站在協助的角色我提的第三個案例就是完全是美國的陸軍去評估的這個給你做參考謝謝好 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福威同仁大家好感謝今天我們這個機會來這邊討論外送產業鏈健全的一個問題跟權益促進也很感謝在這邊參與的夥伴們本席跟許多眾多立法院的同仁都陸續提出外送平台管理及從業人員的權益保障法的一個草案"},{"start":34.617,"end":58.156,"text":"目的很清楚最主要是在很快速的變動的社會情況下要為外送人員合作的廠商還有廣大的消費者建立一個基本的保障制度讓政府外送平台跟外送人員三方之間的角色定位更清楚保障外送人員的權益而且希望這個平台能夠更為安全公平的制度下來永續發展"},{"start":59.497,"end":71.319,"text":"那麼根據資策會的一個資料我們外送平台的這個民眾已經超過了七成那投入工作的人員從2019年的四萬五千人增加到今天已經十五萬人"},{"start":72.711,"end":88.279,"text":"那麼整個的狀況是已經支撐這整個外送平台的這樣一個產業鏈自從整個民眾日常生活跟地方經濟的重要環節那麼長期卻在游離在現在的一個法制之外那也不是傳統的故宮"},{"start":89.72,"end":115.409,"text":"也不是沒有受到完整的職業的安全保障所以在制度層面外送人員合作的廠商跟消費者長期在法律保障的不足當中所以許多外送人員在外送平台單方面的契約定性解釋下以自由工作者freelance的身份在接單表面上好像有彈性但實際上平台透過演算法來決定訂單的分配費率"},{"start":116.97,"end":142.428,"text":"評價跟獎懲機制外送人員往往只能被動的接受那如果有爭議或者是遭受封鎖或發生相關的事故那麼整個維護的途徑極為困難因為這樣的處境所以我們整個勞動市場產生了一個結構性的問題那麼外送人員 廠商跟消費者幾乎沒有溢價能力那麼發生爭端的時候又常常求助無門"},{"start":143.909,"end":161.74,"text":"所以外送人員的職業性的交通安全與職業風險比傳統的勞工更高可是卻沒有對應的制度化的一個保障那麼這也是此次立法的一個出發點讓勞動的保障契約的透明跟數位的經濟能夠同步前進"},{"start":163.793,"end":184.089,"text":"這個草案不僅是針對外送平台跟契約各方面的權利義務做出明確的規範那要求中央政府機關來訂定契約的範本建立資訊揭露跟申訴的一個制度確保報酬計算的透明 爭議可以追溯讓外送平台不再只成為一個演算法黑箱的一個特權地帶"},{"start":185.31,"end":211.4,"text":"那麼本席要強調這個專法在規範交通安全與教育訓練的這個部分那麼專法應該要納入新加入的外送人員應該要接受6小時的實體教育訓練內容要包括職業安全交通安全跟食品衛生安全並且每年平台業者還需要至少提供兩小時的持續教育確保外送人員在長期服務當中不斷更新交通相關的觀念"},{"start":212.02,"end":230.936,"text":"重要的是外送人員如果在執行期間發生重大的交通事故那麼經認定為造勢的原因的話必須要在三個月內完成48小時道路交通安全的一個講習這不只保障外送人員自身的安全更是對所有用路人的一個負責"},{"start":232.057,"end":259.73,"text":"那麼有些人會想說為什麼要訂專法現有勞基法道路交通管理條例可以調整但是本席這邊強調因為外送產業的一個平台經營商家的一個合作消費糾紛跟資訊治理早就已經超過單一法規能夠處理的範圍專法的目的不只是為了保障外送人員更是讓所有人在這樣一個生態系當中包含合作的商家消費者甚至是一般"},{"start":260.49,"end":279.705,"text":"用路人都能夠獲得合理安全可預期的一個保護所以我們要看得更遠這個專法不是只為了外送人員更是為了整個社會外送人員安全上路交通秩序就會更為穩定事故風險降低受益的不只是外送產業而是每一個用路人每一個消費者"},{"start":280.606,"end":300.491,"text":"那麼外送平台在這套制度當中也會因為法制的明確性而降低糾紛的風險那我們可以這樣子來良性的循環那這部法律的一個精神呢是讓外送平台不再以自己只是仲介者為由來迴避所有的管理責任"},{"start":301.411,"end":316.797,"text":"外送平台掌握所有的訂單演算法評價跟報酬資料時呢他就不再只是被動的技術服務者而是整個外送產業鏈條的一個實質管理者這樣的角色要承擔相應的社會責任跟管理的義務"},{"start":317.757,"end":334.471,"text":"那麼這部外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法不是為了阻礙產業的發展而是要讓產業業更為永續讓每一位勞工得到應有的尊重跟待遇讓每一個人都能夠安心使用外送的服務這個是我們對新世代產業經濟勞動型態應有的制度回應"},{"start":338.294,"end":360.972,"text":"那麼傳統的勞僱關係也在改變政府如果不主動介入來處理一些規範就會讓大量處於高風險的從業人員陷於法律真空形成新社會的一個不平等那麼要確保創新科技不能以犧牲產業勞工的權益作為安全的代價那本來本席也期待"},{"start":363.107,"end":382.295,"text":"這個主管機關在法案通過之後呢能夠與地方政府業者還有產業工會來合作建立透明可監督的執行機制確保法條不是只有在紙上保障而是能夠實際落實最後再次強調外送產業是現代社會的縮影它反映出我們如何在便利與風險之間"},{"start":383.795,"end":403.21,"text":"達到平衡也檢視著政府如何在科技與人權之間秉持原則我們推動這部法律不是為了干預市場而是為了讓市場更健康更安全更有尊嚴謝謝感謝 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我請議長院長 請蕭院長來 學員你好議長 辛苦了 不客氣可以聽你的答詢喔 替你吃點心"},{"start":28.683,"end":40.509,"text":"你這樣表現得不像故鄉萬無一失沒有故鄉萬無一失這就是重點嘛但是我不能起來說我整個都會好我請教你在我們故鄉的這種保全這麼精密你認為做一個款式是比最脆弱的一個款式"},{"start":63.159,"end":75.606,"text":"就是在你內心最親密的地方最擔心的就是做一個困難你不用擔心那個叉拉布聽到以後不一定會破你的脖子我會想想要怎麼幫你補救對不對 不用怕怕什麼"},{"start":80.396,"end":105.276,"text":"我...這台語很難說你用國語說就好了我想那個南苑的話基本上是一個新的建築所以它的整個建築結構我看你講我就是去南苑回來我就替你做擔心它的建築結構的話基本上來講的話是比較沒有問題北苑的話是建築比較老舊可是因為它水泥的反而感覺上很安全但事實上的話就是"},{"start":106.627,"end":112.211,"text":"我這樣說 你如果不變 我告訴你 針對最漂亮的部分內部應該再做一個研討 要怎麼來補充 這比較實質的不然我們的國保 你看 今年 幾年了 幾萬人參觀的人數一年多 一年多的人才這樣"},{"start":131.496,"end":158.253,"text":"沒有啦,一年比一年多啦,今年破一百萬南院的話一直在增加,並沒有減少疫情進行,你有沒有知道那個人數,很厲害的我在北院的話,當然就是在疫情期間的話,有一段時間人民一年,統計是99萬幾年嘛,沒到一百萬啦你告訴我破一百萬,沒有啦,差一點點啦有啦,今年破一百啦"},{"start":158.553,"end":169.397,"text":"差三千幾啊 今年破一百前天破一百我請教你一個 推廣這個過境卡這個案件你怎麼看保護管卡 這個合約總共五千幾萬嘛 五千幾萬 你怎麼跟法庭"},{"start":179.499,"end":205.746,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個故宮保管卡他的經費預算的話是在那個新故宮計劃裡面我們花了總預算是五千多萬那我們結算花了四千多萬是啊你今天開拍的聲音我聽到是怎麼聽 我想不到呢委員我跟您報告前陣子開下去的時候阿伯的續卡的情況很不理想"},{"start":207.962,"end":225.093,"text":"市場很不理想的話基本上來講的話這個案子就變成沒辦法回去維持下去就對了對所以你就是我沒可能一年拿五千萬下去五千萬下去所以你就是緊急的看著我把它撿起來這樣那不是我那是經紀人的我知道不是你啦就你故鄉啦不要說拿給別人"},{"start":227.714,"end":243.527,"text":"所以你算這個乾淨 手快 發沾就沾就對了不是不是 跟委員報告不是我不是我把這個案子停掉了因為他的回憶極限已經到了這我告訴你我現在告訴你一件事我是你的委員我會把他送檢調你知道嗎我會把他送 有問題沒問題 我們不知道啦我會把他送調查"},{"start":255.934,"end":261.325,"text":"因為這個案子這個案子是延續性的也不是說哪一位院長"},{"start":262.725,"end":290.752,"text":"沒有啦 我知道啦 就是說這不可思議嘛明天不可行 理行還是完全事先不評估其實是說真的做了多少 剛才疫情還是說剛才什麼樣的特殊的原因 造成我講疫情是一個很重要的關鍵啦但是因為當初的整個評估的話沒有找文化部 沒有找教育部共同參與的話基本上來講的話 以故宮"},{"start":292.392,"end":315.28,"text":"單獨一個單位之旅然後要去那你同期時要停的時侯想說這個界階如果繼續延續 除了這兩步之後你來後續的部分繼續延續這個界階 感覺有這樣想過跟委員報告就是我們有跟文化部跟博物館協會去討論因為時空環境不同 時空環境不同就是說"},{"start":317.16,"end":331.749,"text":"過去博物館卡希望透過博物館卡的方式然後用優惠減價連鎖的方式去增加人力但是現在的話就是文化部有文化幣然後那個什麼老人有老人福利優惠一行要三十千萬"},{"start":334.27,"end":345.098,"text":"這都人民的費過錢啦 有人是要比較嚴重的啦所以我們現在就希望說他跟...沒有沒有沒有 我們現在並沒有要...我們現在要請教你的是那個...你懂 國共藍衣啦我們的藍衣 現在這個夾著不好看啦你有什麼新的推薦的價位嗎"},{"start":360.623,"end":373.919,"text":"故宮藍燕基本上來講的話它越來越好並沒有說越來越好它的展覽的能量然後跟推廣教育的能量都持續增加那當然我們做了很多18萬 你想平均幾個月的人而已"},{"start":378.933,"end":388.001,"text":"呃 平均兩千吧 價值四五千他可以更好啦 我知道 但是因為當初的規劃 你要開什麼價位 用什麼來測動"},{"start":394.79,"end":397.392,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的那個江戶福市"},{"start":417.113,"end":439.745,"text":"胡適會就是因為在南宴的展覽所以它就會引發很大的效果那另外的話百年宴慶的話我們把故宮的鎮宴三寶換寬奈西山行李圖三件大的作品到南宴去展覽我想這個也會讓南宴的那個參觀的民眾更提升是支撐而已啦 要不然等金啦"},{"start":442.805,"end":466.804,"text":"另外一個的話當然跟委員報告因為現在我們在南苑的話蓋第二展覽館第二展覽館的話是國保館未來的話那個龍藏經的話會整個在那邊常駐我想這個對南苑來講的話也是一個非常重要的一個改變跟南部人的信用比較接近就對了這樣我怎麼想要來看現在就可以去看了"},{"start":468.177,"end":485.94,"text":"看委員安排的時間 我跟你說不足啦 我跟你拜託一下啦 南部齁 嘉義這裡 台南這裡 他不說東紀市的故鄉 我跟阿扁的總統說 那就反對 你台南人出身 我問全台灣的人 大家都建議 如果故鄉南美最佳的地方在哪裡 大家都說台南"},{"start":486.781,"end":512.051,"text":"沒辦法 那時候有時候要出動 當館長戴槍投靠 所以就要把這個寶貝來放在那裡你們要多用一點心 好不好所以藍營喔 把生育掉了 你就要把錢用給大漢啦有有有 我們現在 譬如說我們這個上個禮拜我們也連結藍部的各個不同的單位 辦理協助研討會也都是要提升整個藍部的一個能量謝謝 信仰中委員支持"},{"start":516.478,"end":517.76,"text":"店長請回座,我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":828.49,"end":830.076,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會接下來請陳秀寶召委"}]}},{"id":"165158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c59c7216344d2a7bbf337fb9388085e3b614279fc610c108c7bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:51:51 - 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謝謝主席 我們邀請院長請院長"},{"start":17.285,"end":41.707,"text":"好 張委員早好 我剛剛在下面聽了那個吳立華委員講有關於這個北京故宮的一些敘事可能涉及這個統戰的部分我希望就是說剛剛吳立華委員也有希望我們的院長要有態度要建設出台灣不同的地方而且並且要勇於去爭取去說明那這個部分我也希望我也是跟吳立華委員的要求是一致的"},{"start":42.307,"end":55.17,"text":"那也希望院長未來不要說什麼這個可能會有一些小小的問題小小的矛盾我們自己是台灣我們在自己的國家竟然連這樣子的事情都沒有辦法說我相信所有人都應該要為台灣的外交做努力可以嗎"},{"start":57.499,"end":83.835,"text":"當然首先我們先來講一個問題就是我想大家都非常的關注有關於我們的國保因為最近的這個羅浮宮的這個事件他這個文物的失竊那其實故宮馬上就展出了一些相關的行動就是說你們會即刻啟動最高層級的安全防護檢討與強化作業聚焦於這個呈狀的防暴玻璃與具安全"},{"start":85.836,"end":113.417,"text":"檢驗然後還有夜間巡邏跟夜間巡邏的頻率會提升以及我們的外牆與施工通道防入侵模擬測試所以我想知道這個因為這次竊竊其實是竊賊是用升降設備來闖入顯示一個非典型入侵的風險那過去呢故宮雖然保持零失竊的紀錄但是我想面對一些各種不管是人為迫害或是施工的漏洞我們都不能夠掉以輕心所以我想請問一下院長最近一次的"},{"start":113.957,"end":128.407,"text":"防竊防灾演练是在什么时候基本上来讲的话现在是11月17号南北宴都会进行一个比较完整的一个演练11月17号"},{"start":129.575,"end":156.852,"text":"11月17號我們就會做這個防竊防災演練嗎是包含了有關於深疆設備啦外牆施工通道等非典型的路線模擬還是跟過去一樣的模擬型態呢好吧我們請副院長說明一下我大致說明一下事件發生之後我們院長馬上主持緊急應變的會議抱歉可以靠近麥克風一點嗎聽不太清楚對不起"},{"start":158.091,"end":163.577,"text":"10月23日我們就馬上進行緊急的安全會議10月30日就要副院長應變的一個檢討"},{"start":166.075,"end":187.293,"text":"那11月3號我們就桌旗就在桌面上做演習了那我們接著就是今天下午大概18點的時候我們就會做實際的演練包括警察單位也會來參與然後到11月10號的下午1點半又會再做第二次"},{"start":188.013,"end":209.497,"text":"我想問一下 因為其實我知道你們平常都會做一些演練啦但是我想這一次的狀況是跟過去非常的不一樣嘛我不曉得是說因為這個案例凸顯了一個非典型入侵的風險所以我想知道的是到底我們現在有沒有針對這一種我們過去可能沒有想過的升降設備外牆施工通道這樣子的一個非典型入侵做一個模擬的練習呢 我們有沒有"},{"start":210.037,"end":237.35,"text":"因為兩地的情境是完全不一樣對以故宮鎮館來講的話我們的外牆出入口幾乎都被封閉對所以在這一部分我們有經過相當的研析至於施工通道施工通道那是在另外一部分對這跟現場展覽的展間是不一樣的"},{"start":239.07,"end":257.255,"text":"對 所以你的意思就是說我們基本上這個羅浮宮的這種情境在故宮應該是不會發生 對嗎聽起來是這樣講具體一點就是進入的第一條件是不會在故宮發生的但是進入展場之後"},{"start":258.513,"end":272.847,"text":"它可能就是可以作為一個產品好 那我想問一下那就是進入展場之後因為我們現在是有提到說我們都有些防暴玻璃那我們針對防暴玻璃和警報靈敏度是不是也有做相關的測試那跟我還是重新講一下沒關係 我當然聽懂了三層的防護"},{"start":275.469,"end":300.658,"text":"第一個就是說我們的故宮延期的入口的話基本上來講的話沒關係院長我剛剛真的有聽懂不然這樣我時間會不夠至於玻璃的部分的話故宮現在玻璃的要求我們有沒有做相關的測試有測試而且故宮還有一個比較特殊的就是有玻璃碎裂的偵測裝置所以基本上來講的話只要玻璃碎裂的話所以我們上次全面檢測在什麼時候"},{"start":301.998,"end":316.382,"text":"我們隨時都在做而且現在的故宮對玻璃安全玻璃不可能隨時啊一定是有一個頻率吧已經到了那個那個那個掌櫃公司做不出來的地步了就是說因為故宮要求太高好的那沒關係我想問一下"},{"start":318.763,"end":337.854,"text":"好那我這樣非常清楚了就是說我們基本上對於文物的保全我們做的是比吾羅佛宮好像似乎還要更全面更完整這樣子那我想這樣就是希望就是我們的故宮可以繼續的保持啦因為畢竟保存的是我們最重要的文物那我接下來要問一個題目就是有關於數位的部分"},{"start":338.795,"end":365.069,"text":"就是說我們在這個故宮過去其實從2002年開始我們就有關注到這個數位轉型的部分所以那時候專注於在文物的保存還有研究以及建立資料庫後來在2011年的時候我們把這個資訊中心納編為教育展之處也就是說我們將資訊科技教育推廣以及展示設計相結合打破了過去的一些內部組織的規劃"},{"start":366.95,"end":386.997,"text":"所以我們就看到故宮的一系列的數位化接下來在2019年我們又再有一次的轉型是把永續的概念把它做一個連結目標是轉向觀眾服務開放使用權以及加值應用以及利用數據分析來理解訪客"},{"start":387.657,"end":406.728,"text":"那我想要請教就是說我們之前呢其實有一些曾經故宮2.0啊捕捉靈光啊的這個新媒體藝術展啊他其實是把我們的西山行旅圖還有翠玉白菜等作數位的演繹那其實我覺得評價其實也都蠻好的效果也很不錯那我接下來想要請教一個問題就是說當我們現在在這個"},{"start":408.309,"end":432.259,"text":"AI世代 之前10月的時候呢文化部跟教育部有一個博物館的創新管理的會議我不曉得說當時故宮有沒有相關的類似相關的會議來討論在AI世代的博物館應用畢竟故宮過去都只是領頭羊嘛我想要確認說我們有沒有類似相關的會議在討論有關於AI的應用這件事情上"},{"start":434.8,"end":452.133,"text":"故宮基本上來講的話我們有辦過類似的研討會可是跟教育部對口去討論這個事情並沒有但是故宮的話基本上來講的話我們AI STEAM我們提供了線上的一個博物館然後跟推廣教育活動的話我們都有涵納各個地方的學校"},{"start":453.175,"end":476.731,"text":"我想問一下,到底現在故宮有沒有可以去找到留住像這樣子的專業的科技人才?因為過去您也有提到說以我們人事薪資結構,其實是很難找到數據的科學家、互動的設計師,甚至是UI設計的工程師。所以我想了解,未來在AI時代來臨,故宮要如何保持競爭力呢?"},{"start":478.68,"end":504.916,"text":"故宮博物院的話人力編制的話當然是有限包括我們的那個數位置新室的人力基本上來講的話沒有辦法擴張可是我們跟學校跟一些公園院跟一些協助單位合作的話基本上來講像這一次的話城市化檢在那個大阪市博的話就跟公園院合作我想跨業的合作的話基本上來講的話比我們自己的人力去發展的話其實有更大的空間"},{"start":506.155,"end":527.378,"text":"好,我想因為之前也是有一些學術來批評啦,就是說有關於博物館的組織變革及數位化的專業人才培育部分是需要持續的來強化。所以我想除了我們跟其他人合作之外啦,我們是不是也可以去思考一下,是不是可以用這個外包專業服務的方式啦,或是其他的法人博物館,maybe,也可以去思考一下。"},{"start":528.459,"end":553.551,"text":"怎麼樣的讓我們可以在AI的時代能夠保持我們的競爭力那因為時間有限我先簡單要一個報告就是說我們是不是可以提供一個人才聘僱規劃的一個報告給我是 更為報告因為我們最近報了一個計畫然後給行政院我們希望把原來的世衛資訊室改成一個世衛資訊處讓它的功能的話可以有更強的發揮那這個案子還在行政院審議當中"},{"start":554.631,"end":570.586,"text":"了解那我最後再花個一分鐘的時間很快很快就是說我想要拜託我們的院長就是說因為其實國際博物館像是在倫敦自然史博物館或是東京國立博物館都已經進入了AI的導覽甚至還有兒童數位互動平台的一個階段那甚至呢史密森學會"},{"start":571.647,"end":596.721,"text":"他也有這個兒童數位研究部門來開放資料跟教材給學校和AI教育平台使用我們現在是不是有針對兒童或是家庭的觀眾來出或是開始相關的研究去了解如何設計出一個數位互動平台或是導覽的系統因為根據研究發現我們如果可以導入的話孩子停留的時間會更長所以我們現在有沒有相關的進度呢"},{"start":598.282,"end":617.112,"text":"這個部分當然國外的博物館都有在做不過實際上還多是一個局部的一個實驗的性質明年故宮的話就是會有一個AI展廳就是那南葉未來的話也會有一個AI的那個特別的展館這個部分的話我們都有已經在做一個規劃"},{"start":618.072,"end":638.209,"text":"但是我想問的是針對小孩子的部分我們有沒有去對就是所謂的小孩的話畢竟南院其實有非常多的小孩去耶對包括就是小朋友的一個教育推廣我講的是數位互動的部分或是AI導覽的東西我們有沒有類似這樣子如果你們有這些規劃那是不是就可以給我一個規劃的報告數位互動的話"},{"start":639.23,"end":653.868,"text":"數位互動的話基本上是沒有問題,因為事實上我們,譬如說我們那時候的那隻大白馬,然後小朋友畫圖可以上去的話,基本上來講,像類似這樣的數位互動的話,雖然不叫AI,可是已經具有AI的一個實驗性質了。"},{"start":658.311,"end":669.756,"text":"沒關係這樣子好了你給我有沒有任何關於數位跟AI的規劃好不好針對於兒童的部分好不好謝謝OK好謝謝張雅玲委員執行院長請回座接下來請謝榮介委員"}]}},{"id":"17012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17012","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685130bdd2cddfd4385fcef30c343de68fc83051bafb051454b24b974abea908a9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會（事由：舉行「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」及「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」公聽會。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-06T08:32:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T13:34:00+08:00","duration":18096,"影片長度":"05:01:36","委員發言時間":"08:32:24 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陳玉安還沒有到是不是OK好 台中市外送平台服務產業工會理事蘇柏豪桃園市外送平台從業人員職業工會顧問吳昭如"},{"start":1987.153,"end":2011.835,"text":"社團法人台灣數位平台經濟協會理事郭欣怡台北市網路平台外送員職業工這個還沒到不好意思喔我再下一個國立台北大學法律學系副教授傅博翔國際律師事務所律師朱瑞陽"},{"start":2015.231,"end":2018.213,"text":"還有臺灣勞工陣線協會資深研究員孫有連中華民國全國商業總會秘書長劉守仁那接下來請勞動部代表報告"},{"start":2045.23,"end":2052.535,"text":"不好意思部長再稍等一下我還沒有介紹到我們行政機關的代表謝謝部長好我們還是要還是要介紹一下我們勞動部部長洪森漢勞動關係司司長王厚偉"},{"start":2074.575,"end":2101.457,"text":"勞動保險司司長陳美女職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂交通部公共運輸及監理司司長胡迪奇公路局副局長周庭章數位發展部主任秘書胡貝蒂數位產業署副署長陳惠敏"},{"start":2104.351,"end":2123.244,"text":"經濟部商業發展署主任秘書郭宇組長李永毅衛生福利部食品藥物管理署副署長蔡淑珍金融監督管理委員會保險局組長陳蘭君個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長曾傑"},{"start":2134.028,"end":2153.171,"text":"行政院消費者保護處檢任消費者保護官謝偉文法務部參事江南君王南君不好意思公平交易委員會服務業競爭處副處長陳俊廷那謝謝接下來請勞動部部長報告"},{"start":2174.693,"end":2188.64,"text":"主席各位委員然後在座的外送工會的代表包括我們平台業者的代表然後還有我們很關注這個議題的很多專家學者各位先進女士先生大家好那今天受到衛韓委員會來舉行"},{"start":2191.281,"end":2207.896,"text":"外送平台管理及从业人员保障法草案及外送员权益保障及外送平台管理法草案的公听会那邀请劳动部列席那我代表劳动部向各位报告那也会听取大家宝贵的意见"},{"start":2208.856,"end":2235.132,"text":"感谢各位对于外送员权益保障及外送平台管理法制化的建言以下仅就本次公听会的讨论议题进行报告希望各位委员还有各位专家学者不吝指教首先随着外送平台产业的快速发展为了横评外送平台业者外送员消费者及合作店家之间的权利物关系并保障各方权益劳动部目前正持续与相关部会包括"},{"start":2235.652,"end":2255.029,"text":"交通部 经济部 卫福部 数位部以及金管会积极合作来研议专法与规范而政府在推动保障外送人权益并兼顾消费者及合作店家权益的同时也会考虑外送平台产业的创新发展空间以健全平台产业的发展"},{"start":2256.229,"end":2274.623,"text":"本部相當重視外送員的權益保障的議題喔那從112年的7月開始那老部就已經成立外送工會與平台業者之間的對話平台那目前已經召開了10次那透過長期的透過長期參與雙方的對話我們也非常了解外送人所關心的各項的議題跟"},{"start":2276.244,"end":2293.147,"text":"这个权益的事项包括定型化契约基本报酬的保障停权及终止契约的透明度还有申诉机制的建立以及商业保险的提供等等因此政府除了尽数完成像法制作业程序外也在研议专法的规范的内容时"},{"start":2294.068,"end":2318.874,"text":"针对这些意见都将审慎的来考量进去那以确保外送人的基本权益来符合社会的期待那有关目前本部所研拟专法对外送人权益保障的主要规范事项简要说明如下第一透过拟定外送服务契约的定型化契约应记载及不得记载事项横评外送人与外送平台业者之间的意愿能力"},{"start":2319.594,"end":2341.369,"text":"第二保障外送人基本报酬建立透明可验算的报酬计算方式及确保每笔订单的最低工资保障第三明确外送平台业者得与外送人终止外送服务契约的室友并因理由通知外送人及建立独立处理小组的申诉机制来保障外送人的工作权第四"},{"start":2342.506,"end":2369.38,"text":"我們也會強化外送平台業者協助外送員投保職業災害保險的責任並將商保入法保障外送員的工作安全那本次政府部門就外送員權益保障及外送平台管理研議推動法制化會影響外送員消費者合作店家還有外送平台等各方的權利義務那各界都非常關心因此我們也很期待透過今天的公聽會來聽取各方的意見來作為後續推動"},{"start":2371.081,"end":2389,"text":"法案的参考那我也跟各位报告目前这个行政部门的版本草案目前的阶段其实已经进入到条文的最后的收整的阶段那其实这一两周我们也很密切的在跟相关的部会以及跟包括跟工会还有包括平台业者"},{"start":2389.7,"end":2409.492,"text":"來做最後的一輪的諮詢那也會在今天的公聽會結束之後那我們會再做最後相關意見的收整那就會來盡快的來處理後續的法制作業所以我們也希望盡快能把行政部門的版本能夠盡快的提出那進入到立法院的審議上面謝謝"},{"start":2413.521,"end":2436.813,"text":"謝謝感謝部長那我們補充介紹這個來的專學者專家們國立陽明交通大學科技法律研究所副教授邱宇凡全國外送產業工會理事長陳玉安台北市網路平台外送員職業工會秘書長陳鴻宇"},{"start":2441.519,"end":2469.133,"text":"新竹市平台外送從業人員職業工會理事長文萬華台灣美國商會運輸與物流委員會主席馬培智本次會議部會及學者專家所提供之相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2472.922,"end":2500.032,"text":"與會人員發言前先宣告以下事項第一學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間6分鐘為簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊的發言台原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如要發言請到主席台登記全部人員發言完畢後再請行政機關做整體回應"},{"start":2502.342,"end":2529.178,"text":"暫定10點半 休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位留守人發言主席 各位委員各位與會的先進 大家早"},{"start":2530.502,"end":2544.078,"text":"本人代表中澳民國全國商業總會來這裡針對我們今天的外送平台管理及從業人權益保障法這個草案來代表我們商會的一些商家一些意見"},{"start":2545.879,"end":2571.778,"text":"我想這個外送平台它是一個共享經濟的一環那我認為這個尤其這個共享經濟發展到現在在疫情的時候那時候是很艱困的狀況那把這個共享經濟發揮到一個非常好是一個共贏的一個很好一個經濟平台這來講這也是未來現代社會經濟裡面發展一個趨勢那但是"},{"start":2572.699,"end":2589.093,"text":"在發展到這個過程當中到現在其實我們也收到我們自己的本身在商業體系底下有一些商家的一些相關意見那我想因為這裡面還有很多外送我想權益保障外送員的權益保障就像我們剛剛"},{"start":2590.514,"end":2606.482,"text":"勞動部洪部長剛剛講的這個有一大塊是在權益保障這部分但是在平台管理我今天是代表商總所以我還是比較著重於在這個平台管理跟商家合作這件事情來表達有一些我們收到一些反意見那"},{"start":2607.472,"end":2635.311,"text":"我想因為這邊有一些糾紛所以我把這些問題還是把它大概提出來反映給大家聽一下這第一個現在平台抽成的比例其實一直變來變去然後現在而且越來越高所以造成商家他在經營的過程當中營運上面來講本來是一個很好可以持續發展的一個很好的一個機制的狀態但是目前的狀態已經壓縮到一些商家的營運利潤"},{"start":2637.752,"end":2665.592,"text":"甚至來講他們其實大家都反映如果真的有一個專法可以合理的去管制它把這個機制運行得更順暢的話那我想這個把這個價錢收費合理化的話那我覺得這個經濟共享經濟它會發展得會更好那第二點這個其實從消費的角度來講或是商家的角度在有時候在這個平台上運作上面來講"},{"start":2666.873,"end":2682.629,"text":"我收到很多店家尤其在小店家他們更多就是被棄單的那個比例那所謂棄單就是有時候你家裡稍微住遠一點那可能在本來在平台上已經訂單然後一直等一直等那個訂單就是一直轉單一直轉單轉到後來"},{"start":2685.752,"end":2701.647,"text":"沒人要接單了但是在店家裡面的角度來講他東西比如他訂的本來就是個熱食他已經冷掉了所以大家想過我訂一個披薩那個披薩如果一個小時後還能吃嗎所以這樣的一個狀態也真的是需要有一個合理的一個"},{"start":2702.668,"end":2731.445,"text":"平台一個管理機制就是說把這個一個專法把這些一些比較不好的一個現象來做一個改善我覺得這是也一個問題那另外就是這個如果有一個專法管理的話這個不僅可以保障權益也保障到我們店家甚至來講平台上很多公開的訊息讓大家能夠把所有的機制變一個合理化變成一個標準的一個SOP大家都能夠"},{"start":2732.446,"end":2761.463,"text":"就是放在這個大家可以檢視一個的機制底下那我覺得會減少到有一些目前看到另外一個問題就是譬如說有人有一些反應說我們外送人員的那個他的數值的管理我們怎麼樣去其實那麼多剛剛講有15萬個外送員當然一定少不了有一些數值上良憂不起的問題發生那如果有這個管理機制這個管理法出來的話"},{"start":2761.983,"end":2787.603,"text":"那我們會減少到這個人員素質那個良又不起的問題因為我們也看到很多問題就是說譬如說有些東西我自己的家人有人就開了連鎖自己這種類似的小商家這樣的那他們常常反映一個問題顧客常常打電話抱怨他說我今天明明送一個魚丸湯那我是個老客人我大概知道這一家的東西大概有4顆魚丸就在裡面就問題"},{"start":2789.084,"end":2815.5,"text":"平常不訂的人不知道他拿了就是剩三顆吧那我就無所謂但是問題今天我訂了三碗結果變成每一顆都三顆就變成四顆少了一顆但是就是三顆不見了因為我三碗湯 三顆不見了這常常會被有客訴的問題所以我覺得這店家來講如果有一個合理的管制機制對他們來講也可以減少這相關的一些問題存在那再來就是"},{"start":2816.636,"end":2832.768,"text":"我想店家跟平台之間其實有時候發生類似我剛舉例這種問題發生的時候如果你當下有一個機制可以直接反應譬如說第一時間譬如說拍照"},{"start":2833.428,"end":2861.901,"text":"上傳平台我今天東西是完全送到或是什麼相關的跟店家出貨無誤等等我覺得如果在這個專法管理機制能夠如實呈現的話那我覺得可以減少這些糾紛對合作平台來講就是平台 合作商家 消費者甚至外送員我覺得這是一個多贏的一個政策所以商總本會是支持這個法真的要趕快推行不管從那個"},{"start":2863.142,"end":2869.723,"text":"個人外送員權益的保障對商家或是平台 消費者我覺得大家都是共贏的以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":2872.93,"end":2895.682,"text":"感謝留守仁秘書長發言我覺得講就是沒錯這也是公聽會很重要就是希望供應包含商家包含外送員包含消費者包含平台希望大家有一個更好的模式出現那我現在補充介紹一下來到現場的還有社團法人台灣連鎖加盟促進協會副秘書長顧尚鈞還有立法院榮譽顧問賴香林"},{"start":2905.179,"end":2923.991,"text":"好接下來請下一位發言林月琴委員主席還有在座的關心外送員權益的"},{"start":2925.144,"end":2946.066,"text":"專家學者們大家早上上週事實上未還委員會就排定了外送專法的一個詢答的時候我就特別跟昭緯建議說應該開個公聽會那也很感謝昭緯在今天能夠安排這樣的公聽會這是一個非常正確而且非常重要的一個過程可以聆聽大家的意見"},{"start":2946.827,"end":2961.438,"text":"因為畢竟牽扯的不是只有單一的外送員剛剛也有我們總工會也有提到就是商家還有就是平台那這幾方的一個權益我們怎麼去顧及到我覺得這是今天一個很重要的"},{"start":2963.66,"end":2984.334,"text":"這幾個禮拜大家也看到陸續就看到各個委員會的版本都已經送出包含我們民進黨團的還有我的版本也送出了那我也留意到三大平台共同召開了記者會來呼籲應該要展開多方對話的確是所以這就是今天公聽會的目的所在然後也提出了十大建議我覺得這是一個很棒的對話就要彼此對話"},{"start":2985.535,"end":3007.154,"text":"那可以讓大家可以針對外送專法的討論更為聚焦那也可以兼顧到不同利益關係人然後能夠讓大家去看到對方的一些立場那舉凡有關外送員的停權的正義處理和相關教育訓練顯然就是比較有明確的共識那當然很高興可以看到今天"},{"start":3008.034,"end":3024.263,"text":"很多方的代表都踴躍出席我相信這場公立會一定能夠獲得第一線實務跟多元領域的專家的建議能夠而且透過大家眾人的智慧能夠讓這部專法推動的比較完備為什麼因為我覺得今天"},{"start":3025.582,"end":3041.424,"text":"我在過去看到就像剛才我們在外邊外送員在開記者會我非常認同他們講的他們等了非常多年不管是蘇柏豪理事 文萬華理事長跟我們陳月安理事長他們提到已經之前"},{"start":3041.977,"end":3062.692,"text":"就已經講過之前也曾經來參加公聽會所以我們希望這次能夠來順利完成事實上我在上個會期就曾經跟公會團體共同召開記者會針對平台業者的片面調新的爭議提出三個訴求這個片面調新的問題其實不是外送員第一次碰到了因為這種"},{"start":3064.094,"end":3078.516,"text":"單方的一個把他的勞動權益然後只做一個通知正因為如此我除了選擇跟工會代表站在一起也呼籲平台業者要立即停止以外記者會後我也立即發函給交通部跟勞動部那也很"},{"start":3080.258,"end":3090.326,"text":"謝謝勞動部立即能夠做一個這樣子的一個公文那也希望我們的運價這個法制作業能夠完成有關汽車運輸業的管理規則跟汽車運輸業的客貨運價的準則"},{"start":3095.911,"end":3115.584,"text":"那原則上我已經詢問過交通部應該是11月就會出來那現在已經到11月我們希望敬請期待那我的法裡邊有幾個主張第一個首先我認為外送員跟合作平台的相關勞動成果跟權益需要有明確的立法保障為什麼這樣子提呢"},{"start":3116.144,"end":3143.238,"text":"我覺得外送員的工作我始終看到幾個不確定就是說我的合作對象不確定我也不知道送到消費者手上甚至我去店家拿東西的這些對象的狀態是什麼他薪酬的不確定他道路風險不確定跟個人權益的不確定所以我覺得應該有一些立法來做文明保那個明文來做保障所以面對於抽成過高或是報酬結構不明的問題"},{"start":3144.258,"end":3165.045,"text":"要透過我們的主管機關來明訂契約範本將商品提供和價格運送運費的收取等事項納入法裡邊然後並且透過核定的運費跟最低工資的雙重保障機制才讓參與其中的勞動者真正享受到平台科技帶來的便利跟"},{"start":3165.785,"end":3184.822,"text":"經濟利益然後創造出消費者跟商家跟外送員跟平台的市營的一個局面所在那我的第二個主張呢是我常受到外送員的一個陳情跟抱怨除了我們的薪酬的結構以外最常接到的問題就是對於爭議事件處理的不透明"},{"start":3185.543,"end":3198.803,"text":"這些爭議可能是來自沒有太多客觀證據的一個顧客的投訴缺乏具體事證的檢舉內容又或者事實上是沒有申訴機制的一個停權的一個處分這些對於"},{"start":3200.946,"end":3216.939,"text":"用這個維生的外送員來講的話我覺得影響非常的嚴重可能長時間會減少他的收入所以我認為這是也是專法必須要處理的因此我的草案版本裡邊針對於報酬金額計算方式跟給付還有"},{"start":3217.423,"end":3235.99,"text":"停權跟違規終止契約跟其他外送員的不利的一個決定呢還有外送員跟合作商家跟消費者的外送的所發生的爭議要有個申訴機制以外還有這些過程內容都應該公開揭示留存記錄資料甚至如果外送平台業者"},{"start":3236.71,"end":3263.979,"text":"不會因為外送員提出申訴跟協助他人的一個申訴反而事實上是遭到不利對待這也是我的版本裡邊有的那主張三就是職業安全也是我相當關切的一個課題尤其在台灣的一個風險有巨大風險的一個交通環境裡邊對長時間暴露在其中的外送員來講的話相當不利那過去的數據也顯示交通事故的頻繁"},{"start":3264.679,"end":3288.848,"text":"可是根本的就不能够入罪于我们的外送员本身所以我的版本里边也参考了台中跟高雄现行的自治条例的做法将交通安全实数明定出来然后让我们的外送员可以接受相关的一个训练那主张是最后就是随着外送平台从业人数的增加我们可以看到成长了"},{"start":3289.648,"end":3309.628,"text":"大概三年成長的三倍而且幾乎都是以兼職為主所以商業保險是絕對必要的一個保障所以也是希望在這邊明定要投保商業保險然後能夠非雇傭關係的要準用勞保跟災保還有離線權的一些保障都應該兼顧"},{"start":3311.129,"end":3339.363,"text":"那最後就是我對外送員我主張就是能夠保障外送員跟合作商家的權益跟強化安全措施跟教育訓練那希望我們這部專法在下下週如果能夠主條審查的時候可以根據今天大家的與會的一個意見來做一個比較完備然後訂出一個好的法謝謝好謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請朱瑞陽律師發言"},{"start":3347.313,"end":3370.688,"text":"謝謝主席以及與會的各位先進那針對外送員平台這個議題我想在目前的結構上我們也是認為是說定力專法有它的必要性跟考量畢竟以15萬個人的這樣的一個產業加上周邊的這樣的一個服務包括像這些運送器材還有就是平台事實上這個產業的人數是很可觀的在這種可觀的情況之下"},{"start":3371.608,"end":3398.46,"text":"過去從到底是僱傭還是承攬這個法律關係造成很多的爭議透過專案法來去釐清它的法律關係以至於在這種情況之下也應該還原回去它應該有的這樣的一個權利比如是說當我們如果認為這是一個承攬關係的情況之下你就不能夠把它綁定讓它不能夠去同時接好幾家的這樣的一個外送的這樣的情況那我們也要必須要去說明是說外送平台所帶動的其實是一個微型的創業"},{"start":3399.78,"end":3421.454,"text":"這是一個另外一個可以讓大家思考的一個情況但這個微型的創業又卡在一個它是一個平台經濟某種程度你也可以講它是被AI也許我們稱它叫做控制的這樣的一個角色以至於大家就意識到一件事情我除了被可能當作工具人以至於我好像已經變成是一個僱傭的角色"},{"start":3421.994,"end":3451.167,"text":"我沒有這樣的一個空間存在以至於在這種情況之下我們希望有更多人性化的思維去考慮這件事情所以它除了法律關係之外我覺得也可以從另外一個情況我們怎麼讓平台跟微型創業這些能夠得到一個好的這樣的一個帶動甚至它也可能會成為未來微型創業的這樣的一個好的一個發展的一個需求那當然我們也注意到一件事情在目前的法治上面反而地方的自治條例走的速度比我們的專法來得快"},{"start":3451.747,"end":3473.8,"text":"以至於在這種情況之下各縣市管理也不一樣在這種情形之下確實需要有一個專法來去釐清各方的降格權益在過往跟勞動部這邊的一個討論也認為是說在解決法律關係之前我們先把各方的權益先做兼顧以至於在這種情形之下平台的控制力呢應該要適當的去做調整以至於在這種情形之下"},{"start":3474.6,"end":3490.025,"text":"除了申訴之外有外部人的參與我看到黨團的版本有申訴制度外部人的這個參與我覺得這個事情可以平衡單方的這樣的一個內容之外從我們講平台的控制這件事情或許也可以參考是說我們在"},{"start":3491.105,"end":3505.896,"text":"過去有人體審查委員會他是做什麼事情的呢因為做的事情都是比較是屬於倫理審查的事項所以我們希望外部專家的參與來去監管這一個所謂的平台我們的管理有沒有過度的去苛責這樣的一個勞動者的這樣的一個立場"},{"start":3508.098,"end":3533.605,"text":"所以在這種情形之下我們會覺得是說除了有申訴委員會的這樣的機制或許在內部也可以建立一個內部的一個自我審查即使但是有外部人的這個參與能夠兼顧到平台以及勞動者權益的這個部分那當然有一個很重要的一個需求是來自於職災確實如果從目前的勞保的立場來看它是被定義成是一個自營作業者的立場在自營作業者的立場來看目前是沒有提供職災保險"},{"start":3534.685,"end":3552.658,"text":"如果我們將專法把它納進去成為類職災保險的情況之下一定程度的會讓現在商業保險的成本能夠下降但是也可以跟我們的職災的保險去做銜接但是可能會延伸出來一個問題因為我們自營作業者其實不是只有所謂的外送員"},{"start":3553.559,"end":3568.431,"text":"其他產業的那個自營作業者比如是說我們講的是說一些廚師或什麼其他各類的職業工會也可能會有資災保險的需求那整體的負擔呢是不是我們能夠去承擔的這或許也是一個可以考慮的但是有專法"},{"start":3568.931,"end":3593.973,"text":"至少不會用現在商業保險的費率來增加各方的這樣的一個權責因為你加到平台上平台就已經轉嫁到那個所謂的外送員這邊那適當的去做這樣的一個平衡呢也希望透過專法的方式來去做考量那另外的情形也是因為這些是微型創業者大家常遇到的情況因為這些個體戶呢都可能在我們的住家或我們的生活裡面去做穿梭可是呢他們卻"},{"start":3595.034,"end":3623.414,"text":"拿着我们的资料到处跑所以从各自的管理的立场来看反而也是在这个平台里面是一个很需要去考虑到的问题因为平台很大但是个体物很小但是每个人可能手上拿的资料呢可能都可以一直不断的累积以至于在这种情况之下也有看到之前外送员就带着一个监视器然后应该摄影机啦他就去那个管理委员会这边拍然后就拍到很多各自的这种情形以至于在这种情况下原来他的摄影机只是为了要"},{"start":3623.994,"end":3639.544,"text":"去做那個所謂的周邊的那個所謂交通的這個所謂攝影結果呢因為去了觀光會就把所有的那些人的名單都拍走了所以在這種情形之下我們要一個微型創業者你要去掌握這些資料保護似乎也很困難以至於在這種情形之下平台"},{"start":3640.024,"end":3669.284,"text":"能不能提供更好的这个协助呢反正也是我们希望能够借助在这个专法里面呢让平台可以多一点管理但是呢也不要去苛责这个外送员因为他就是一个微型创业者在这种情形之下才能够把各方的权益呢去做厘清那么另外一个情况是说我们觉得在目前对于外送员来讲我们应该可以从工作权的保障或许也从另外一个观点叫工作权的保护来看这件事情因为毕竟他跟传统的雇佣关系不一样"},{"start":3669.924,"end":3687.015,"text":"所以保障这些事情毕竟还是要跟雇佣关系做区隔之外另外的情况从保护的机制里面我们就会希望是说从外部的申诉不要任意的去给他终止从工作权的保护的立场来看给予他一些机会让他不会一次就断线这样的一个情形当然也有一个情况"},{"start":3687.695,"end":3716.176,"text":"會不會有過度去爭取那個所謂的業務的人以至於造成有些叫做超強的外送員可是他可能也造成他自己不管是在身體或者是在職災或者交通上的這個危險那這個過度勞動這些事情呢或許也可以在這個專法裡面怎麼去考慮因為我們在勞動者的立場來看我們有過勞的一個議題可是在外送員的情況之下似乎沒有人去顧慮這方面的一個情形那這個也是我們在專法裡面呢認為可以去做全能的"},{"start":3716.916,"end":3726.591,"text":"考慮 以上謝謝謝謝朱瑞陽律師發言接下來請吳榮達前董事長發言"},{"start":3735.656,"end":3762.386,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家好因為事先沒有先拿到各個黨團的各個政黨的一個有關本法的一個修正的一個制定的一個草案所以沒有辦法就具體的條文來做一個回應那我想大概會從消基會的角度或消費者的角度表達這個以上的意見第一點我們認為這個制定中法是有它的一個必要性的"},{"start":3763.246,"end":3791.457,"text":"因為我們知道這個有關外送平台的這樣子一個運送外食的這個部分它牽涉到有四個法律關係的面包括外送平台業者跟外送平台的服務人員外送平台業者跟提供餐飲的這個業者跟餐飲的這個業者還有外送平台的業者跟消費者之間的一個關係甚至我們也可以講是外送平台的服務人員跟消費者之間的關係"},{"start":3792.737,"end":3812.442,"text":"所以它涉及著多元複雜的一個權利關係或法律關係所以要用一個法或是兩個法來分別規定或分別適用的話有它的困難度存在所以我們認為應該來制定一個專法這個是有它的一個必要性的這是第一點"},{"start":3814.683,"end":3838.655,"text":"第二點我們從現實上來觀察現在最大的問題在於說平台業者他是一個寡占的優勢的一方企業經營者所以就像剛才幾位簽證或是委員剛才有提到的我跟商家之間我要決定多少的抽成就是多少的抽成我要跟消費者之間我要多少的費用"},{"start":3841.136,"end":3867.711,"text":"甚至本來有優惠的有會員的優惠的我怎樣調整他的優惠的方式要調整就調整這個是一個寡占的一個優勢的企業經營者地位特別是在外送服務員的一個報酬的決定的部分甚至給單的方式的部分給單的順位的部分那都是一個優勢的一個寡占的這樣一個地位的情況之下一方來決定來決定各種的"},{"start":3870.932,"end":3890.831,"text":"它的一個費率也好 或者是付報酬也好那我們覺得這是一個不是那麼適當的所以必須要一個專法來做一個管理剛才林委員所提到的我想大概有幾個面可能沒有想到的沒有想到 因為你有提出草案所以我覺得有幾個面可以來考慮看看是不是要在這個法律裡面來做"},{"start":3891.611,"end":3918.356,"text":"第一个要不要类似费率的审议的机制像我们现在看到基层车司机的费率那是有一个审议制度那我们对于跟消费者之间的这个费率收取费用的收取跟平台的服务人员之间的一个报酬的一个收取那甚至跟餐饮的提供业者他们之间的一个有关的提成的一个收取要表有一个费率的一个审查的制度"},{"start":3919.076,"end":3935.828,"text":"那如果有這個費率審查制度呢西方交通部的公務局呢他們公務局他們一直希望的是要讓業者平台業者提供財務報表讓他透明化透明化以後才能夠決定說到底他給這一個外送平台的服務人員他的報酬到底合不合理啊"},{"start":3936.568,"end":3965.728,"text":"这些消费者的收取的费率啊费用啊是不是合不合理啊跟业者餐饮公司供应业者呢他们所收取的这一个抽成呢是不是合不合理啊那一定要经过财务的一个透明化然后经过审议的制度才有办法来做啊可是我们看到了公路局的版本交通的版本呢这个财务的透明化跟他收集财务的资料没有法律的授权光是要一个命令的一个方式要叫业者提供这样的一个财务资料可以吗"},{"start":3966.888,"end":3995.461,"text":"這是違反法律的規定的這是違反憲法的規定的所以呢我們覺得另外一個思考就是我們這個法律裡面呢要有兩個東西要考量第一個要有一個法律的授權我們用哪一些部分呢要有一個法律的授權例如說非的審慮因為它比較麻煩一點所以應該有一個授權然後制定執法那甚至連財務的透明化的部分都應該法律的授權之下有一個執法然後來做這樣一個決定這個是可以來做一個考量的應該做一個考量的"},{"start":3996.061,"end":4012.044,"text":"第二个是有关法律的准用部分因为有一些部分是跟部分法律是重叠的所以有一些考量是我们不需要把这个专法里面已经把各个观点各个应该规定的事项都丢在这个专法里面太耗烦了"},{"start":4012.805,"end":4036.307,"text":"我们觉得有一些部分是不是就是授权有一些的部分是不是用准用的方式这样才有办法来做这样一个比较适当的一个专法上的一个制定我是比较倾向于这样一个看法比较这样的看法大概比较大方向其实这样的一个费率审议制度对于平台业者也应该比较有好处的"},{"start":4037.442,"end":4063.052,"text":"因為剛才我們剛才就碰到要走進來跟平台業者他們的理事也有做一個溝通他說但利潤沒有那麼高啊利潤沒有那麼高你就財務透明化嘛然後就在這個審議制度了解說你只有這麼微薄的利潤大家都以為你賺了很多錢然後要求你怎樣怎樣怎樣怎樣什麼都要做什麼都要做所以這個會讓整個社會有它的一個衝突跟爭議的一個存在"},{"start":4063.939,"end":4088.547,"text":"所以我覺得有關非議的審慮也可以在這一個法律裡面有一個授權的方式來做一個平衡我是這樣一個建議那也會對於這個業者來講我就是財富就是這樣那我的成本就是這樣我訂這樣的費用 合理我這樣的報酬是合理這樣也對平台的業者在我們這個這個行業來講的這個有趣的發展也會比較有幫助的那因為時間的關係我先簡單這樣報告 謝謝"},{"start":4097.747,"end":4113.612,"text":"謝謝烏龍達前董事長我也認為我覺得透明度一直是現在這個專法或是各方利益有爭議的地方所以我認為透明度也是很需要去考量所以包含在紐約模式的立法裡面其實他們有要求"},{"start":4114.913,"end":4132.65,"text":"這個可能平台必須提供哪些關鍵的數據給這個相關的單位去審議推出一個比較好的利率然後定期去調整包含利用率包含著現在有在爭議的譬如說什麼叫做真正的工作時間是送單到單之間還是包含備勤時間"},{"start":4134.071,"end":4152.122,"text":"那這個部分也應該要要求這個平台業者有責任很負責任的要縮短所謂備請時間讓利用率增加這也是一個要考量的方向感謝吳董事長那接下來請桃園市外送平台職業工會顧問吳昭如發言"},{"start":4159.789,"end":4178.918,"text":"委員還有在座各主管機關還有與會代表大家好我是桃園市外送平台職業公會顧問我今天的發言主要就是要講四件事情第一個是停權然後契約的締結跟正義處理還有平台的責任這四點"},{"start":4179.938,"end":4205.997,"text":"第一個停權的問題就是其實外送員被停權就相當於他被剝奪的工作機會工作權現在平台他時常會用這個系統判定就是譬如說異常接單然後就封帳然後沒有給外送員就是通知也沒有說明有人外送了一年多兩年多一天突然就是不能上線收入馬上就歸零就沒有辦法繼續工作"},{"start":4206.978,"end":4224.031,"text":"我們要求的是平台停權要有程序要說明理由要能夠申訴平台不能夠一鍵把外送員的工作權封殺也不能取代透過演算法的方式取代人去判定說這個人是不是上線"},{"start":4225.552,"end":4248.129,"text":"因為現在很多平台他不是因為違法或外送員被投訴而是單純就是這個外送員接單率太低或是聚單次數太多就被封帳這其實不是一個合理的就是平台不是一個合理的跟外送員是一個平等的這個合作的關係就是單方面的制定的這些規定那這些指標就是像外送員他可能"},{"start":4248.709,"end":4268.898,"text":"今天只是臨時想要休息或是遇到比較天氣比較差然後或是要避開一些危險的地點然後他就是要被系統判定就是他效率不足所以要把被停權這樣停權是沒有合理的也不是明確的一個標準而且也沒有提供申書機制"},{"start":4270.178,"end":4288.735,"text":"所以我们这边主张说停权它必须要有合理的依据然后除于违法或违约或是造成安全事故的重大情节而且要有通知说明申诉和复权的程序接待率太低并不是应该要被封障的这个理由第二个契约的问题"},{"start":4290.136,"end":4315.219,"text":"就是現在外送人跟平台簽的都是電子契約實際上就是平台這邊想要變動就變動那APP只要更新條款就會變動那報酬公司可能也跟著變動不同意你就不能上線也沒有任何的選擇我們認為契約應該要寫清楚這個寫清楚這個計費的方式派單的原則然後停權的條件"},{"start":4316.8,"end":4344.875,"text":"平台他要如果要更改必須要公告內容說明理由讓外送員有知情和表達的機會再來就是因為有稍微看過就是幾版的這個外送專法的草案目前爭議處理大部分只規範在爭議處理要定制定程序因為現在外送員如果他被如果今天平台他制定了一個就是外送員申訴的一個制度"},{"start":4346.715,"end":4367.742,"text":"但是還是有可能存在外送員被誤判或是被停權然後會被掃給錢這種狀況目前針對爭議處理的這個部分我們主張就是要有獨立的爭議處理機制可以由比如說公會主管機關或平台共同參與"},{"start":4369.182,"end":4391.997,"text":"每一個爭議有申訴地方有申訴的程序可以查而不是說平台自己內部判自己的就是案等於求由兼裁判而是要第三方來調處那第四就是我們會目前就是草案裡面主要處理到是這個食物外送員的這個跟平台之間的這些"},{"start":4393.157,"end":4418.122,"text":"但是除了食物外送目前其實像是多人計程車或是說就是有一些透過第三方APP他去接單的這個司機他同樣也是透過平台接單那他也是適用就是同樣一個類似的這個制度對 那差別只是他在於他是運送人或是運送這個食物那他們其實基本上狀況其實是一樣的"},{"start":4419.402,"end":4440.937,"text":"對那所以就是我們會認為說希望專法也可以把就是這塊給他就是制定進去那我的發言大概就這樣謝謝那接下來請台灣勞工陣線協會資深研究員孫有蓮先生發言"},{"start":4449.217,"end":4464.994,"text":"主席還有各位議會的夥伴大家早安剛剛博豪還提醒我說6年前好像是差不多這個時候我們也有召開過公聽會針對外送員的權益跟相關的規範有這樣的公聽會"},{"start":4467.276,"end":4493.698,"text":"所以六年其實過去了我還想說這個產業或者這樣的一個就業形態的開始跟發展包括零工經濟在全球國際上面的一些發展趨勢六年前大家可能認為它是新的大家還在摸索摸索說到底這個產業的形態是怎麼樣它是不是一個good business model然後權益從業人員的這個權益到底要怎麼保障"},{"start":4494.338,"end":4522.193,"text":"那其實我真的認為說今天的公聽會是一個非常重要的開始也就是說六年過去了其實有很多的很多的這樣的當時可能還沒有搞清楚的一些一些事情包括原則是什麼有可能的有可能的例外是什麼我想這是法律保障裡面很重要的一個原則那現在應該很清晰的所以對於朝野都已經提出版本我想"},{"start":4522.953,"end":4550.394,"text":"我想站在勞工團體的立場我們都是樂觀其成而且希望說這樣的一個立法它能夠更盡速的這樣一個完成那當然因為這個公聽會的開會的室友當然是權力保障跟尤其是外送的權力保障跟其他的這個權益的部分所以權益保障一定是這次立法的重要核心核心在哪裡核心在於說"},{"start":4552.176,"end":4568.73,"text":"過去這麼多年來包括說因為零工經濟的興起因為ICT產業跟科技的這樣一個發展讓這種就業型態它已經成為一種各國不得不面對的問題"},{"start":4569.991,"end":4593.426,"text":"那我也坦白講說歐洲總工會他們的這個調查事實上有越來越多人也嚮往這樣的一個就業的形態我說這是個就業的形態所以在這個就業的形態之下你如何達到IO所倡議的有尊嚴的勞動我覺得其實這是應該是立法的這樣的很根本的目的那我相信啦"},{"start":4594.546,"end":4609.817,"text":"我可能沒有看完所有的版本我相信大概本法的第一條一定都是寫要保障這個相關從業人員的權益因為這個公聽會的主要的目的在地方那如何保障這個從業人員或者勞工"},{"start":4611.838,"end":4630.154,"text":"他的這樣的一個權力的這個實意我覺得其實就是立法的重點所以希望今天的公聽會以後不會再等6年好不好我們大概也沒有在這麼多的6年在這麼多的時間來等這樣的一個立法的結果"},{"start":4630.854,"end":4660.314,"text":"那當然就剛剛不管是上乳不管是很多的夥伴已經提到的相關的問題其實有幾個重點那說實在我就不佔用大家時間我記得我們在三年前的這個國際這個專業勞動日有一張文宣有一張海報是針對針對外送員的因為勞政在2020年就已經進行過一波的外送員的這個普查"},{"start":4661.395,"end":4683.134,"text":"這個普查有一個問卷調查那三年前的這個海報其實我們挑戰的一直都是演算法我們挑戰的就是剛剛有許多先進提到的不透明的這個事情他在這個勞動過程裡面他在這個商業的運作過程裡面對於不同的利害關係人所造成的"},{"start":4683.875,"end":4698.933,"text":"危害或者造成的傷害我覺得其實這部分其實是一個很重要的立法的內容要根本解決跟處理的事情尤其是演算法的不透明以及法律關係的定性的這個問題他會讓"},{"start":4701.435,"end":4713.248,"text":"勞工或讓勞動者處在更弱勢的這樣一個狀態那那這部分的話希望在這個立法的過程裡面能夠去有更明確的一些原則性的規範我說這個原則性的規範這樣說已經六年的"},{"start":4716.431,"end":4744.128,"text":"也該有的爭議大家其實也摸得差不多了這個業者的聲音這個這個工會的這個聲音學者專家的聲音其實我們大概已經很明確的知道說在這樣的一個邏輯之下他可能會產生的問題事實上是已經可以用法律很明確的這樣的一個規範去避免爭議去避免爭議所以我覺得這部分是在未來立法裡面我們期待期待看到的"},{"start":4744.989,"end":4748.776,"text":"當然另外一個也是剛剛所提到的 就是說"},{"start":4749.201,"end":4776.595,"text":"在這個勞動過程裡面他最有可能所導致的某一些太陽的這個勞資爭議以及說包括職災這部分我們如何在法律裡面更能夠去刻意這個明確的這樣的一個某一方的那個法律義務我覺得其實這部分是要是要是在法條裡面是明確看到的那當然最後啦就想說"},{"start":4779.596,"end":4795.721,"text":"我們其實國家我們在2020年也有提出企業人權國家行動計畫啦那這個國家有保護的義務嘛對不對那企業要尊重人權嘛企業要尊重勞動的這樣的一個人權然後有效的這個救濟的管道是要更加明確化那在這部法裡面"},{"start":4796.942,"end":4814.515,"text":"剛剛工會的這個代表提出一個非常重要的一個訊息就是有效的救濟的管道這部分是要更加明確的放在裡面然後像過去所處理到的勞資爭議也是一樣隨時被停權的這個問題應該要在法律裡面明確的規範以上 謝謝"},{"start":4817.677,"end":4831.359,"text":"謝謝 感謝孫友蓮先生我想人生沒有太多個六年了我們這一次一定會快狠準希望快又狠又準趕快的推動 謝謝那接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":4839.175,"end":4867.467,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天與會各界的代表那首先我要肯定我們召委這個積極的排案從這個委員會兩個禮拜前我們委員會其實就已經開始巡打了要開始啟動了然後今天又繼續安排了公聽會代表這個我們國民黨是非常重視外送員專法的推動而且也積極的往前推動我跟大家回顧一下這整個"},{"start":4868.907,"end":4894.767,"text":"外送員的專法事實上真的是在六年前了我們這些好朋友就已經開始積極在倡議了整整遲到了六年而六年前其實我們官方的態度從當時的勞動部部長是許明春部長那他就說我們訂定這個原則這個勞動指導原則但是呢這個原則充其量其實就只是一個指引"},{"start":4895.547,"end":4901.75,"text":"並不是有什麼強制性的原則然後到了何沛山部長的時候大家也希望這個可以有專法那他一樣就是應付式的就說我們有我們有我們這個已經有指引了那現在是洪森漢部長這個被期許是從跟老公朋友站在一起的部長我們當然希望是不一樣"},{"start":4919.538,"end":4941.143,"text":"但是上次我在質詢的時候 部長說他還需要三個月的時間真的是太久了就像剛剛前面我們的代表所講的事實上這一步伐不是從現在開始朝你這一步伐是六年前大家就有一個構想然後希望往前推進所以其實所有關鍵的問題大家要討論的"},{"start":4943.644,"end":4959.541,"text":"都不是從現在才開始那剛剛一開始的時候我有聽到這個洪部長說看起來收斂的差不多了今天公聽會完之後很快了我希望部長你待會最後回應的時候不要再三個月了我們也沒有要等你"},{"start":4961.844,"end":4977.725,"text":"這個剛剛這個我們早已經講了快很準了對國民黨來講我們去年其實多位委員都已經提出這個版本了所以其實不需要再等待了在兩個禮拜之後我希望就進入主條的審查了所以這件事情沒有以拖待變"},{"start":4978.426,"end":5006.859,"text":"也不會就是再拖延了那我希望大家各界就共同面對因為這部法如果可以立法成功其實是保障三方的權益不是只有保障單方的權益我們可以用一個更寬廣的角度來思考跟看待這個問題那現在大家都可以看到我們的勞基法在有保障的情況底下我們的基本工資我們的時薪我們明年時薪要多少"},{"start":5007.779,"end":5028.334,"text":"各位部長明年時薪要多少對明年時薪已經要來到196但是我們有一些外送員他的接單費他可能跑了一個小時沒有達到基本的工資因為那個演算因為他的這個權利不對等"},{"start":5028.914,"end":5045.295,"text":"那所以如果我們勞基法的基本精神都可以保障到明年基本時薪是196那我們應該就不能再接受現在有這樣的情況他的這個接單費是可以任意被更改然後沒有最低薪酬的保障的"},{"start":5045.735,"end":5064.085,"text":"所以我看到勞動部你講的幾個原則第一個要有基本的薪酬保障我覺得這個一定要入法絕對要因為我們勞基法是這樣子訂定那這個也是我的版本裡面我覺得保障基本的薪酬跟薪水的穩定讓這一個產業讓所有要從事外送員的朋友"},{"start":5064.525,"end":5079.001,"text":"他可以在一個基本的保障情況底下安心的接單安心的工作照顧他的家庭跟個人的生活我覺得這個是一定要訂定的那第二個是這個整個他的工作權的保障現在"},{"start":5079.762,"end":5104.287,"text":"我們看到有些人就說你不准接單然後他就失去了接單的權利了連申訴連反應的機會都沒有那我們現在所有的勞基法保障的精神都是勞工的工作權你今天要去之前一個勞工你可能都還有一個月都要提早告知就是讓他有心理準備但是外送員現在是說停就停那他完全"},{"start":5104.747,"end":5128.73,"text":"沒有辦法就單純跟你借你真的就也沒辦法跑所以這種權利的不對等對於他基本的工作權沒有保障的情況我認為在這次的專法裡面我們的確也應該要好好的來定義清楚那第三個很重要的就是所謂的勞資糾紛申訴機制的處理那現在的確沒有一個比較相對公正的"},{"start":5129.19,"end":5152.515,"text":"或者是一個制度化的申訴機制好好的來處理這當中不只是外送員的權益當然也包括有些消費者的權益我想剛剛也有消費基金會的代表前董事長其實也特別提到在消費者權益保護的這一塊有時候消費者不知道要去哪裡感覺那個申訴機制跟管道其實是很不暢通的"},{"start":5153.155,"end":5172.78,"text":"所以這個也應該要去確保最後一個我認為就是這些外送員的安全跟他的保險應該要給他們一個具體的保障我們從事任何的工作我們都希望是在一個安全的環境有受到保護的環境裡面"},{"start":5173.28,"end":5195.243,"text":"然後才可以穩定持續的工作所以我覺得這幾個面向都是我們未來在法案裡面就是一定要去具體去入法而且應該要具體保障的那最後我要重申事實上訂定這樣的一個專法我們是讓整個外送員這樣的一個行業就是讓他有了保障之後"},{"start":5195.743,"end":5212.846,"text":"就是讓整個的產業其實是可以更穩定化的往前走而不是現在可能到透過抗爭抗議的方式大家在衝突當中往前走所以我覺得這個立法是必要的而且這個期程不宜再拖延了"},{"start":5213.386,"end":5236.296,"text":"也期許勞動部用最快的速度這件事情只有做跟不做事實上其實大方向大家都知道了那可以盡快提出版本可以跟得上委員會的腳步好不好就是對盡快好謝謝謝謝部長今天這麼積極的回應就是盡快的提出不是三個月這會期我們盡快的通過然後創造一個三贏的外送平台的專法以上謝謝"},{"start":5237.759,"end":5253.42,"text":"感謝 謝謝王玉明委員發言那也呼應一下王玉明委員其實剛剛有提到最低基本時薪嘛明年196但是大家也可以試想一下其實外送員的時薪的實際的成本營運成本是什麼"},{"start":5254.381,"end":5271.131,"text":"譬如說你如果到便利商店打工他確定是站在那裡拿196每個小時可是外送員在送單的時候他還有什麼他還有車輛的成本譬如說他燃油成本每年稍微換算一下可能是四萬五保養費可能每年一萬多然後還有折救費"},{"start":5272.231,"end":5299.197,"text":"甚至他還有他要自己要去保的保險費用通訊費用設備費用健保費用其實如果這樣子夯不夯當算下來的話其實他一年下來可能必須在這個營運上面他自己也必須負擔11萬10多萬元這也是另外一個思考的點所以當然這個外送員的這個成本的量化比如他在跑這個單的成本量化以及平台方的成本的量化這也"},{"start":5300.337,"end":5314.368,"text":"呼應剛剛那個吳前董事長講到這種透明度其實是這種數據導向才可以讓我們比較明確的去設定這個專法一些相關的內容所以這以上提供大家的建議那接下來我們請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5325.953,"end":5340.938,"text":"謝謝朝委還有各位委員以及今天的學者專家還有外送員的夥伴們還有我們的官員們首先感謝朝委安排今天的公聽會也很謝謝國民黨團好幾位委員在這個會期一開始就帶領著大家"},{"start":5342.018,"end":5367.854,"text":"有共識說把外送員專法列入我們未還委員會的優先法案以我自己的工作型態不管是從前的醫療業或是現在的公共事務都高度仰賴辛苦而且風吹雨淋的外送員才得以兼顧忙碌的生活還有孩子所以真的很感謝啦那我們也一定要在這個會期把它達成這個目標那首先真的要告訴勞動部說對於外送員的權益要加緊腳步不要這種"},{"start":5369.975,"end":5395.746,"text":"這個三個月可能大家會覺得在這個13年的期盼當中有點太久了為什麼這樣說呢因為兩週前廖偉強召委公布了未還委員會的議程結果上週質詢的時候勞動部才緊跟著上場表示說自己早在幾個月前就開始修法那我們是很難相信過去所有的專法幾乎都是在黨提出的民進黨已經執政快10年了結果快要審了才說要端出版本"},{"start":5397.047,"end":5413.305,"text":"再次謝謝不然我們今天哪有機會在這邊發表意見上禮拜我們看到勞動部的書面報告更是很希望因為通篇在講說未來將提出整合型外送平台經營管理的指引並強調對於法治化願意開放與朝野討論後來被"},{"start":5418.05,"end":5445.192,"text":"批評了之後馬上改口說已經開始進行修法的作業而且是好幾個月前開始的那麼是不是忘記宣布了呢無論如何終於趕上了在黨的腳步外送員總算不需要再被拖延不用再被指引敷衍了帶過我也要求勞動不用最短的時間把這個行政院版本送到我們立法院來審查回到專法的本身後過去沒有"},{"start":5445.692,"end":5474.433,"text":"法律強制力的指引是無法約束平台的這件事也很明顯了今天我們開始準備審視大家努力的結果現在的法案版本中包含明確主管機關還有強制納保職災這兩點是基本的共識了我們都很支持但是只有這樣子還不夠真正的魔鬼是藏在平台的演算法黑箱裡今天我想著墨的點是希望好的專法絕對要保障外送員在"},{"start":5474.953,"end":5491.432,"text":"事前與事後的知情權跟申訴權首先我們要說大家都知道針對平台管理行為的事後申訴權利現在大部分的版本都已經有申訴的制度了有些版本甚至是請外部的處理小組"},{"start":5492.193,"end":5517.659,"text":"不過我覺得這個小組的組成我希望可以定得很清楚比如說條文應該明定要有幾位勞動法的專家幾位外送員產業工會代表都必須分別的列出來如果只是含糊的寫外部專家這樣子的話勞工的飯碗其實應該要有勞工自己的人在場這樣子才有保障再來就是事後救濟"},{"start":5519.84,"end":5536.193,"text":"那就是他們對於重大規則改變的事前知情權舉例來說保障他們假使被停權前的陳述權利停權他們會莫名其妙的好像接受了一個最嚴厲的處分"},{"start":5536.833,"end":5559.31,"text":"那我們不能讓平台先砍帳號再讓外送員去跑那個漫長而且官僚的申訴流程所以希望在充分保障外送員對事前處分的陳述權利那另外我們也覺得所有重大規則的改變都應該要讓他們知道這個要求其實非常的基本"},{"start":5559.71,"end":5586.329,"text":"一般的勞僱關係中僱主單方訂定的工作規則如果修改導致勞工的工作條件變差就必須留意是不是有違反工作規則不利益變更禁止原則但是對於外送人來說這點常常是很難的因為他們並沒有一個辦公室會議室沒有布告欄所以平台就單純的用一個APP推播一個通知"},{"start":5586.969,"end":5612.075,"text":"就宣布了政策的改變那規則就改了那費率就降了就變了就是因為這樣子所以我們才更必須要在專法中強制平台要告訴外送員這些權益的改變演算法透明化費率變更預告等等可以真正的被實現這些是我們訪談了很多外送員團體他們很期待的"},{"start":5612.495,"end":5630.261,"text":"所以勞動部跟朝野的委員更應該集思廣益把這些機制看要怎麼樣把它寫進條文當中那當然勞動部現在的版本還在研修中之後也會送到立法院我們希望可以收到這樣子的版本是真正打破黑箱保障勞工的專法"},{"start":5631.121,"end":5651.396,"text":"那最後還是比較感性的去謝謝風吹雨打13年撐起了我們很多生活上的便利疫情期間更是城市裡面最勇敢的無名英雄謝謝每一位的付出外送人專訪讓我們未來這個會期可以仔細的審查讓尊嚴還有保障一併前行謝謝感謝謝謝陳景輝委員發言那接下來請立法院榮譽顧問賴香林"},{"start":5661.59,"end":5676.219,"text":"小姐發言謝謝昭偉還有各位議會的先進各位官員我想我們今天也很難得在這個"},{"start":5677.677,"end":5698.582,"text":"地方立法六年后我们在立院终于可以正式的用全国性立法的这个目标来进行公听会那我想在这个报告之前我有两个问题我一直不解第一个就是说我在报上看到这个平台业者对外宣称说我们的外送员的时薪有高达270元"},{"start":5700.302,"end":5717.478,"text":"这个已经超越了我们现在基本工资快有一倍那这个算法是怎么来的以及这个270元放出来之后各界画栏到底原因何在我想今天平台业者有两位专家都在现场待会请他们好好的这个把资讯公开透明让"},{"start":5718.078,"end":5746.861,"text":"所有的从业人员以及商家了解到底是不是你们高抽成然后你们钱真的给了外送员那这样我觉得大家也合理但是如果不是那这样的一个数字对外界来讲你们就是相对的去让外送员现在几年来努力争取这个接单费每个单价越砍越低的状况变成好像是无理取闹所以这第一个我希望待会可以请平台业者在发言的时候可以一并公开这个事情"},{"start":5748.004,"end":5769.085,"text":"第二個是有關公平會我今天看到公平會的報告我有一點失望因為在這個這個今年吼沸沸揚揚的兩大平台要結合的時候呢公平會站出來這個據理力爭的認為這個有聯合壟斷甚至會造成市場上的這個寡占到沒有辦法進入市場自由化的這個模式所以呢就讓他們的合併呢"},{"start":5769.685,"end":5795.505,"text":"造成这个分裂那目前两个业者经营的也还不错然后呢听说业绩也突破了这个历年的新高所以这个自由市场也许是我们遵从的一个模式可是你们今天的报告里面竟然把我们外送员要定定报酬下限这件事情呢把它视为是特定行业的价格干预措施我实在看不懂这到底在写什么哈"},{"start":5795.945,"end":5825.047,"text":"然後呢這個外送員報酬的下限實則就是工資其實就是我們的生活所需怎麼把你講成市場上面的價格干預措施所以是演算法裡面把這個相對的這個費用呢視為是經營成本不是人事聘用的固定支出那我相信這個公平會要趕快去調整你們的說法甚至要對外解釋你們認為勞工的薪酬報酬這件事情跟特定行業的價格干預措施有什麼關係"},{"start":5825.968,"end":5853.213,"text":"除非它的联动是很清楚的今天我给外送员多少钱然后我跟商家收的这个相对的抽成是多少钱以及我们认为所谓运价跟运费的联动关系等于基本工资这件事情是不存在的所以如果是这样的话我认为我们之前引手期盼的这个执政党提的这个版本就不成立所以我希望这个公平会要站出来说清楚同时他还讲到说如果我们把这个"},{"start":5854.253,"end":5876.085,"text":"接單費標準計算方式發放日期由平台同業工業工會跟所謂相關的勞工的工會擬定報準和主管機關核定他說這個會促成外送平台間水平協議跟平台與外送員間垂直聯合問題這更看不懂到底在寫什麼所以我想這個自外於這種"},{"start":5877.606,"end":5895.074,"text":"對於市場這個現行發展到已經無法可管我們希望讓他導正的一個方式呢是顛倒的這是我兩個大概要跟大家做說明接下來我想我們就很簡單的來看看國際上的趨勢那也不贅述在2024年的2026年中間這個"},{"start":5898.255,"end":5921.844,"text":"國際勞工組織ILO將會訂出全世界各國只要是會員國都必須要接受的修法或立專法的一個建議書及公約那這個我相信會是我想勞動部更清楚這個方向只能把保護擴大而不是讓保護淪為議價所以我想我們在整個推演的過程裡面可以看到它要求2025年"},{"start":5923.024,"end":5945.553,"text":"今年的IO的這個大會就提出演算法的治理要確保可解釋跟防止歧視等一下我們邱以凡老師會好好跟大家做說明第二個社會保險的納入當然就是現在講的我們的職業災害保險我們的勞工保險我們的健康保險都在由勞工自行吸收這是一個什麼樣的勞動保障幾乎是零所以在過去地方立法的時候就強調"},{"start":5946.833,"end":5961.747,"text":"起碼你把商业性的保险里面涉及第三人责任险财产的保险要让外送员的相关的保障要由业者来承担第三个是集体协商群今天在座有工会也是难得在这六七年来"},{"start":5962.728,"end":5977.425,"text":"很多卫生员他们彼此不认识但他们愿意为这样一个新兴行业里面的劳工站出来表达自己是一个劳工的一份子所以他们的集体协商权跟谈判权在IO里面也是强烈的在这个要求最后我想"},{"start":5977.585,"end":5995.004,"text":"我們回應到亞洲本來台灣可以是第一但是我們現在可能要淪為第二也就是在新加坡的立法裡面勞動部也非常的清楚新加坡立法裡面甚至把外送員納入了他們的公積金也就是退休跟住房儲蓄的這個專案裡面這個相對來講是把他們以"},{"start":5995.945,"end":6021.437,"text":"类劳工以及保有劳动在社会生存必须的未来性里面包括住房以及储蓄退休这个当然是我们现在在法里面呢希望援引能够准用甚至类推适用劳保让他们也有一定的保障以及未来在这个职业安全的问题里面有职灾的保障这个是亚洲里面已经有立法的先例而不是平台业者一再的"},{"start":6022.722,"end":6049.511,"text":"他们对台湾我不知道他们爱不爱台湾但我认为他们在国际上跨国的企业的其他国家都有法律德国有法律西班牙有法律法国有法律澳洲有法律唯独台湾他们多次推诿不愿意进入一再要求劳动部用指引的方式用平台这个协商的方式那我认为长久之际你们还是要面对这种成本不可能有你们"},{"start":6050.071,"end":6069.205,"text":"不透明的演算法裡面一再的讓大家認為這樣的一個成本由勞工由外送員自行吸收所以我相信從這個消費端從商家的這個上架費的過高以及外送員砍單越砍越低的狀況都必須要止血必須要透過專法所以我很感謝"},{"start":6070.086,"end":6082.801,"text":"我们赵伟我们廖委员以及非常多在党的委员们率先的把这个列为今年的优先法案也期待这个法能够尽快完成以上谢谢感谢"},{"start":6084.436,"end":6101.368,"text":"謝謝賴香林委員喔其實要非常感謝他他也是這個上一屆立法院算是率先最早提出版本一直努力到現在非常非常敬佩也非常感謝喔那我覺得他剛剛提到一點我認為等一下是目前為止的確比較少在講的就是各國的"},{"start":6102.168,"end":6123.818,"text":"立法的狀況然後發生了什麼事情我想這個平台業者他們在各國有相關的法律我覺得這個也可以跟大家說明一下包含紐約的模式比如說他怎麼計算有效的工資然後如何去計算供單時間跟那個跑單時間跟備請時間要怎麼去訂定他的基本報酬"},{"start":6124.778,"end":6134.906,"text":"所以我剛提出了相關的數據那紐約是一種模式包含西雅圖是一種模式可是的確西雅圖的模式定定下去之後可能導致市場的訂單驟減進而影響到真正影響到這個外送員"},{"start":6141.892,"end":6165.213,"text":"接單的權利我想這也是可以去思考的那當然就我目前的研究所知道這個紐約模式好像對於市場衝擊是最低那我覺得這個東西是大家應該也可以去把它提出來因為目前為止可能沒有講到其他國際上面相關的案例那當然講出來之後怎麼樣適用到我們台灣的狀況這個也是很重要的那以上"},{"start":6165.894,"end":6172.801,"text":"那接下來我們就是請社團法人台灣數位平台經濟協會理事郭欣儀發言"},{"start":6180.509,"end":6200.821,"text":"謝謝主席然後也各位在場的各位委員然後我們行政部門的長官還有各位專家學者還有關心外送產業的朋友大家好那今天很感謝有這個機會可以代表平台業者在這邊來做一個發言那外送平台呢在進入台灣之後呢其實一直是秉持著要推動產業正向發展的初衷"},{"start":6201.421,"end":6230.961,"text":"我们持续也一直在检讨制度提升安全跟优化保障但是外送产业的结构非常的复杂而且牵涉的层面非常的广泛包括十多万的商家然后数百万名的消费者还有累计15万人次的外送伙伴外送平台除了促进消费之外也支撑了三营业的数位转型所以外送平台的经济其实不只是平台与外送员更是整个餐饮与零售产业链的一部分"},{"start":6231.561,"end":6259.754,"text":"但從剛剛稍早的這個發表當中其實我們發現有很多的情況是跟平台這個業界實際上在就是實際的面向還有實況是不同的地方所以我們非常擔憂如果沒有經過充分的討論責任邊界然後立法影響或是產業發展然後而且是基於事實基礎來討論的話結果會是三方都受到衝擊外送員的保障沒有提升"},{"start":6260.194,"end":6282.447,"text":"商家的成本被迫上升消費者最後就要承擔所有的外溢效應而付出更高的價格那什麼是事實呢其實首先外送工作的核心價值在於自主、彈性可以自由的安排時間那剛剛其實我覺得劉守文秘書長提得很好朱律師提到說這是一個微型創業者的工作"},{"start":6283.027,"end":6301.361,"text":"因為不管在哪一家平台都有高達八成以上的夥伴他們是以兼職為主那其中更有超過五成的夥伴呢他每週上線的時間是不到十小時的所以在所有這個兼職為主的外送員中更有將近七成的人是另有正職工作的"},{"start":6301.841,"end":6325.203,"text":"也就是說外送它並不是一個被視為正職的行業它是一個相對補充它在正職工作上不足的報酬部分拿來做一個補充性的工作剛剛就是劉秘書長有提到很多店家消費者的反應一直被轉單所以平台會利用這種離尖峰的費率來調整一些報酬的變化"},{"start":6325.983,"end":6346.413,"text":"這樣才能達到所謂的點得到也送得到兼顧消費者 店家還有外送夥伴的權益至於外送員的報酬真的像外界講的那麼低嗎我以2025年就今年1到10月的平均數來看其中一家平台它每週實際接單的工作時數如果是在31到40小時的夥伴"},{"start":6346.873,"end":6367.61,"text":"平均月收入大概是落在48000元那如果實際結單時數是在40小時以上的話呢平均的月收入是到66000元那有一個另外一個平台呢也透過第三方的調研機構那對就是不特定的外送夥伴進行隨機的抽樣調查得出未扣除成本的平均時薪是290元"},{"start":6369.111,"end":6398.26,"text":"那當然我們也理解很多外送夥伴必須自付油資車輛維修費那這些他們的淨收入會有跟一般的受僱勞工有所不同可是這樣的結構其實跟很多的自營作業者是相同的那這麼多外送夥伴在明知要自付成本的這個情況之下他們能選擇這份工作選擇留下就是因為這份工作的自由彈性還有這種變動這可以有更多的這種收入的情況對他們而言這就是報酬的一部分"},{"start":6399.02,"end":6415.351,"text":"所以我也想舉一個例子前陣子有一位記者傳了一張就是在外送員的一個相關群組的LINE群組的對話給我然後他向我查證這個對話內容是真是假他的這個對話是兩位外送員的對話其中一位還是外送員工會的幹部"},{"start":6418.573,"end":6432.889,"text":"那他說呢他剛應徵一份就是店長級別的工作薪水只給得起四萬五然後呢是他才不想去可是呢就是呃就是有其他外送人就對話說蛤四萬五被砍薪還是跑得到"},{"start":6433.65,"end":6456.953,"text":"所以這樣的相關討論其實不是只有在這個上面我覺得看到這個案例我很驚訝因為這不是平台講的這也不是業者講的這個是外送夥伴自己在他們的社群對話裡提出的這種對話所以我覺得它也是一個參考價值就是為什麼一個店長級別四萬五千元的工作他們會認為他才不想去而寧願留在外送平台也跑得到"},{"start":6458.014,"end":6478.613,"text":"所以事實就是外送平台不只是彼此競爭他也必須和整體勞動市場來競爭我們可以從2020年到2025年外送夥伴的人員從9萬人次增加到15萬人次這是最直接的實證如果外送平台真的像報酬像外界講的那麼低無法維生或是優因不足人數不可能年年增長"},{"start":6479.714,"end":6496.603,"text":"那在相關的保障部分呢其實剛剛有非常多的討論不過呢我也想講其實呢外送員的這個意外險呢其實就已經是在補充當年我們沒有職災保險的這個部分而去投保的那目前在2024年所有的平台也投保了這個第三人責任險我初估"},{"start":6497.003,"end":6512.388,"text":"目前所有業者在保險的費用支出上面每年是超過5億元的這是現況 也是實況所以如果當要重複納入就是跌床駕屋的共同相同類性質的保險的時候外送平台的成本勢必增加"},{"start":6512.808,"end":6530.769,"text":"那增加的結果就是會成本上升它就是會有一些外溢的效應所以如果立法版本以現況以現在這樣的版本而且不是那麼的符合實際運作的情況來做一個立法的話其實對產業的衝擊真的是非常的大我以美國西亞圖的案例為主"},{"start":6533.732,"end":6555.058,"text":"美國西雅圖在提高外送報酬到基本工資1.5倍之後僅就當地一家外送業的DoorDash的數據他們在2024年的一年就減少了170萬筆訂單然後商家總營收減少4000萬元外送夥伴平均等待下一筆訂單的時間增加三倍這只是在一個人口只有78萬的西雅圖式的數據如果放大到台灣2300萬人"},{"start":6561.44,"end":6575.406,"text":"那這樣的政策衝擊是會超出想像的所以我們呼籲就是現在外送的服務已經是日常的一部分了我們非常希望就是立委主公在立法之前可以先有完整的影響評估至少針對消費者"},{"start":6576.767,"end":6595.97,"text":"商家 外送夥伴等各方利害關係人各舉辦一場公聽會來廣泛的收集意見同時我們也建議行政部門可以共同來組成一個外送產業制度的研究小組用三到六個月的時間來針對報酬計算 保障機制還有兼顧產業永續的這個方向來進行實證的研究"},{"start":6596.531,"end":6609.421,"text":"那平台業者也非常樂意提供相關的數據給主管機關來審視那我們共同來建立外送夥伴的這個收入調查標準讓所有討論可以建立在事實上而非印象之中謝謝大家"},{"start":6611.328,"end":6633.78,"text":"好謝謝我想要回應一下其實你剛剛講到相關的數據我認為應該是要拿出來公開透明的所以不應該就是可以趕快拿出來好不好但我也計算給你聽你剛剛說時薪270然後沒關係看你怎麼定義這個是一個很核心的問題就是要討論報酬的時候很核心的問題是你怎麼定義他的工作時間"},{"start":6634.901,"end":6657.302,"text":"他的備勤時間算不算他工作時間我想這一直以來都是這個很核心的問題所以我再反過來算給你聽剛剛我說如果外送員他要來做這個外送員的話他要負擔的多少成本我用年來計算包含燃料包含這個剛所謂的健保費用車輛折舊費維修費算下來一年是11萬假設我今天假設我今天"},{"start":6658.042,"end":6665.107,"text":"這個還是大概初估假設今天用台灣的工作時期每一年每一個勞工工作的時間來算2030個小時我們把它除以11萬除以2030個小時"},{"start":6671.051,"end":6690.732,"text":"那等於是他每個小時的成本他跑每個小時的成本將近55塊所以你用290然後去扣55塊我這還是初算他可能是200出頭可是這裡面是沒有算備請時間所以其實他們的收入沒有想像至少我現在算起來沒有平台業者講的這麼高"},{"start":6692.475,"end":6712.245,"text":"所以你們應該要你如果說你有數據那你就應該趕快提出來告訴大家然後你剛剛講到所謂的西雅圖模式可是你也沒講到紐約模式紐約模式它是會它的這個衝擊是相對對於市場衝擊是少的所以我是希望說既然你也可以我覺得平台業者也可以看到現在大家各方面都支持定力專法"},{"start":6712.705,"end":6738.112,"text":"那你也說要專業的專法我也我們也不想真正影響到衝擊到市場然後導致外送員訂單也變少可是那你就要把你的所謂的實際的數據拿出來因為我當初在要推的時候也有平台業者來找我因為現在給的數據吼包含你剛剛講的都不太一樣譬如說你告訴我這個實際真正在那個時候你沒來告訴我說實際真的高度"},{"start":6738.772,"end":6763.552,"text":"高度這個叫什麼高度依賴的可能是一成好我問了勞動部他說三成多四成三成多所以其實目前大家的數據是不對的或是沒有統一的標準的確讓我們在立法上面會遇到問題可是你現在才說要提供我是希望盡速提供好不好謝謝好謝謝那接下來請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":6774.882,"end":6785.6,"text":"謝謝昭偉很可惜我要發言前昭偉都把話都講完了齁那我要講我們現場外送夥伴你的時薪有270嗎你的時薪有270嗎"},{"start":6787.506,"end":6812.537,"text":"我想這根本你問ChapGPT他都可以幫你簡單的收集相關的數據跟資料跟實際上我們所面對到的所有外送夥伴有很大的差異這些美化的數字這些實際背後所產生的每一個人的故事真的是用這些數據就可以顯現的嗎我舉例來說剛剛平台業者的代表有說到這些人都有正職"},{"start":6814.397,"end":6840.179,"text":"他們只是兼職我想試問在座的每一個人如果一份工作能夠讓你養活你該有的這個家庭跟生活你會希望做兩份嗎你會希望做兩份嗎就是因為平台不斷的不斷的片面的調降相關的報酬所以迫使這些人必須還要再去找其他的工作來維持他的生計"},{"start":6841.874,"end":6869.482,"text":"我也很感謝我的學姊賴香玲在當時我們也跟她就教於這一方面的相關提案的版本聽到了很多的一些心聲跟建議我還是要再一次的強調不要只有講到西雅圖啊紐約的模式我們也可以探討啊說公聽會多辦幾場可以啊 可以支持啊但是為什麼這六年來都沒有做為什麼要等到廖瑋祥"},{"start":6870.839,"end":6896.228,"text":"去準備要執行這樣子的一個政策去探討的時候大家變得很積極了那這6年來被剝削的這些人呢我擔任議員的時候我曾經遇過業者我現在講的不是平台是賣飲料的業者還沒有準備好要上架就被冒名上架了一杯飲料一杯飲料"},{"start":6897.679,"end":6921.174,"text":"在平台上面找得到1599一杯飲料我們找不到申訴的管道我到處去找最後才找到平台好不容易好不容易才找到平台可以申訴才下架我也遇過外送員買了一杯飲料叫外送員送到火車站"},{"start":6923.038,"end":6944.941,"text":"結果火車來了 買的人等不及了 上了火車外送員問他 你在哪裡他說 我等不及了 你自己喝吧好 外送員很緊張啊 為什麼因為他只要隨便一個申訴 他馬上就被停權結果呢 真的就被停權了"},{"start":6946.499,"end":6972.332,"text":"一個受害者一個辛辛苦苦在工作的人送達目的地結果呢因為他等不上自己的火車抓不好時間最後受害的是誰外送員當時要開一個記者會才能夠讓他恢復這些都是平台業者在剛剛所講的數據當中沒有講的今天我們看到平台業者說時薪270"},{"start":6974.529,"end":6987.554,"text":"說這些人賺到了四萬五賺到了六萬所以他看到了他們的薪資很高就可以片面的調降薪資是這樣嗎這沒有充分的溝通啊"},{"start":6988.655,"end":7016.128,"text":"所以我要講的是在21世紀在如此民主的中華民國我們還有看到這些核心的勞動者卻因為制度的規範不足長期面臨報酬不穩定工作風險高還有勞動保障不夠明顯這樣的結構性問題啊勞動部就說我們用衛生指引就可以顧及他的這些職業安全顧及他的勞動權益"},{"start":7018.769,"end":7038.614,"text":"今天我們為什麼站在這裡我要跟大家講今天如此推動外送員專法要立法的是誰是平台是平台讓整個外送員專法加速進行推進為什麼"},{"start":7040.148,"end":7062.823,"text":"因為剝削啦一手拿著所有的餐飲業者的錢一手拿著外送員剝削的錢我們當然要保障所有消費者不要被亂漲價所以這個過程可以更穩健可以更謹慎但是這個過程6年了"},{"start":7064.093,"end":7092.395,"text":"六年了台中的代表說他六年前就在這裡發聲到現在六年了你告訴我再冷我也要呼籲勞動部你乾脆就把民進黨的黨團版本單稱是我們現在行政院的院版吧趕緊來審吧再等一個月再等三個月我想請教就教於現場所有的夥伴現場所有的官員現場所有的媒體"},{"start":7093.666,"end":7120.076,"text":"跟你說你再被剝削一個月兩個月版本就出來你願意嗎對不起我聽不下去但這一個漫長的道路已經六年了不是不支持平台而是這個過程中太多人被剝削我們看到太多的案例不要只是拿著這些美化的數據跟實際上是的確有看到真的很大的差異我們看到的是"},{"start":7121.383,"end":7150.284,"text":"越來越強的演算法越來越賺的平台但是卻是越來越低的報酬給著這些業者餐飲業者跟這些外送員今天早上記者會也有店家的代表因為參與活動被剝削趕緊的申訴換來的是非常冗長甚至是不顧權益的一個等待"},{"start":7151.437,"end":7167.48,"text":"最後一定要鬧到把他鬧大了平台才願意重視店家所以我們看到的是平台真的沒有充分的溝通充分的申訴管道透明的一個機制獎勵以及演算法在"},{"start":7169.592,"end":7183.141,"text":"驅使著這些工作人員變成是工具人所以我們希望今天我們可以慎重的來討論這個立法的過程但是不要忘記這些人正在等待著奇蹟發生謝謝羅廷偉委員發言那待會顧尚軍副秘書長發言完畢後休息10分鐘"},{"start":7203.764,"end":7215.976,"text":"我修正一下因為我們看現場有這個孟楷委員不然等一下等那個孟楷委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘好我們請顧尚軍副秘書長發言"},{"start":7224.778,"end":7244.313,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們在場的專家學者先進大家早安那我是代表台灣連鎖加盟促進協會我們代表大部分的餐飲連鎖業者那首先我們表達我們產業界的心聲當然我們絕對是支持來立定專法那保障外送員還有我們基層店家的權益來提升勞權呢"},{"start":7245.354,"end":7270.705,"text":"也絕對是先進國家的基本共識所以我們絕對是支持那第二個呢是協會我們大概目前有25萬家的實體店鋪超過七成呢其實都是跟有使用這個外送平台有跟外送平台的業者來合作那外送員跟平台都是我們餐飲業者非常重要的夥伴因為現在外送服務已經不只是一個附加價值不是一個輔助銷售而是我們很多餐飲業者的第二成長曲線"},{"start":7271.585,"end":7294.344,"text":"所以外送生態系可以說是洞見觀瞻我們希望它是健康的我覺得現在我們的外送生態系可以比喻為我們一個商圈裡面房東跟租客的關係現在外送平台它可能就比較像是房東我們的店家連鎖品牌中小業者可能就是租客而外送員就是比較辛苦去維護整個大樓營運管理的我們這些管理人員"},{"start":7295.144,"end":7309.114,"text":"那我們的房東收租當然是沒有問題啦但是現在狀況是我們的租金是越來越高那規定啊等等通通都是房東單方面說了算那我們卻沒有一個維護我們整個大樓安全運作的一個專業的法規"},{"start":7310.015,"end":7338.584,"text":"所以甚至我們房租最後的成本是轉嫁給我們大樓的管理員就是外送員這個其實我覺得是不太合理的結果就是我們租客的經營也是越來越吃力外送員賺錢也不開心整個大樓的生態系開始崩壞我們看到很多像是我們的商圈因為租金太高最後都面臨蕭條的窘境我們不希望我們現在一個新興的產業就是我們從外送平台數位化的一個經營最後也走向商圈比較衰敗的後路"},{"start":7339.964,"end":7357.318,"text":"所以呢我們希望這個法規一定是要立定那我們這個外送平台在台灣算是一個寡占市場那他基本上是一個很壟斷他的權益那外送員跟業者其實是在相對的弱勢所以絕對需要公開透明一些相關的數據讓大家都可以心服口服這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":7358.559,"end":7376.107,"text":"那最後呢我們如果這個平台啊一定是要公開這個抽成比例保障外送員啊像是保險等等那外送員跟店家有一個合理的契約條件整個產業整個生態系才會有合理的發展那我們要提醒立法機關的是這個制度設計可能要兼顧消費者權益"},{"start":7376.607,"end":7396.388,"text":"还有餐饮业者的营运负担以及平台永续经营三方面的平衡如果法制化的过程忽略我们餐饮业它实际的人力成本还有付出的压力等等最后外送费用上升甚至压缩中小品牌的生存空间对台湾整体的经济发展都不是一个正向的发展"},{"start":7397.771,"end":7423.992,"text":"目前的合作架構裡面店家跟外送平台的契約當然我剛有提到是由外送平台比較單方面的決定手續費 條件等等都是變動的很頻繁那是不是公開透明呢再加上外送員的派單機制是不太透明所以三方的關係會有時候比較緊張不太穩定這個就是我們希望可以透過制度化來改善的地方第一個就是公開透明我們剛剛再三的強調"},{"start":7424.733,"end":7453.585,"text":"推動平台資訊揭露的制度我們包含派單的機制抽成的比例還有保險範圍資訊等等應該對合作的店家跟外送員都來公開透明的說明那例如我們像實際上常常遇到的我們在這個外送平台的高峰期那有平台可能會臨時調整演算法那把距離比較近單價比較低等等這個訂單優先派送給某些外送員那有些外送員他可能又接不到單在那邊乾等收入會下降"},{"start":7454.185,"end":7474.43,"text":"可能整個時段都接不到一份單這個對外送員當然不是一個保障對於我們的業者來講同樣也受到影響有一些我們的企業會員反應過去平均每個小時可能10筆的訂單平台更新這個派單機制之後演算法又將這個訂單集中在某些可能中大型的品牌"},{"start":7474.91,"end":7486.98,"text":"那導致我們中小企業或者是比較新興的一些小店家他反而沒有外送員可以去幫他送單所以這個演算法常常不管是對外送員還是對我們店家大家就會常常搞不清楚狀況為什麼大家都不開心那再來就是"},{"start":7490.863,"end":7516.912,"text":"平台有說到這個可能是系統最佳化它有演算法等等但從業者卻完全不知道演算法的調整依據也沒有任何協商或是公告機制就是單方面的不斷的被告知那我們只能去接受結果這就是我們所說的這個制度空白我們希望平台可以分享這些資訊讓我們大家都可以知道如果平台有困難可以提出我相信大家也可以理解我們希望大家都是一個健康的生態系可以發展"},{"start":7517.492,"end":7547.086,"text":"那第二个就是政府的角色我们应该站在一个监理者跟协调者的角色那我们不仅对这个外送平台来立法而应该促成这个产业三方咨询平台的常态化我们把相关的关系人常常召集起来然后一起开会来调整最新的这个政策动态而不是我们像现在这个状况比较算是平台业者单方面说了算那还包含调整薪资保障保障我们的业者权益等等以上是我的发言我们谢谢主席然后也谢谢各位的专家学者"},{"start":7549.008,"end":7556.557,"text":"感謝謝謝顧尚軍副秘書長接下來請傅博翔台北大學副教授發言謝謝"},{"start":7562.589,"end":7589.954,"text":"主席各位委員部會的長官以及各位先進大家好那很開心今天有這個機會來分享一下我關於這個議題的一些想法那其實我就根據這個我們今天所提供的這個提綱的部分我來稍微大致各個來分析一下但我覺得一個貫穿四個問題的一個重要的一個見解或者說重要的一個想法其實我覺得專法的必要性在於說它可以平衡平衡然後它提供一個最低的地板性的一個保障"},{"start":7590.894,"end":7619.574,"text":"那在一般來說我們覺得說你這工作你不開心不想做不要做嘛不要做就好了我們覺得這個市場機制可以去挽救所有的東西或是它可以調配出一個最佳的一個方案但從我們勞動法這個長期研究來看的話我們覺得這個市場機制它會失靈它失靈的情況下有些人會長期的被控制在一個狀況不佳的一個情況所以一個法律或者是勞動法的最重要的角度或最重要的一個功能就是提供一個平衡"},{"start":7620.214,"end":7646.535,"text":"透過我們賦予這些人一定的法定的權利墊高了他的一個可以跟僱主談判或自己他自己可以思考說我是不是要換工作的時候剛才很多人提到說有更好的工作更好的時薪那這一切的基礎就在於說我有一個這個地板存在這個地板時薪是多少錢或地板說我有什麼權我有什麼權利可以去主張我在進行綜合的考量的時候才有辦法去進行一個我們所謂的一個談判或者是一個換工作與否的一個對話所以"},{"start":7648.686,"end":7675.156,"text":"立法的重要性我覺得立專法的重要性都在於這裡我們不能再仰賴說這個市場機制會自己出現那指引有的時候它的局限性在於說它沒有一個真正的強制力因為指引的一個位階畢竟是對內生效對外提供一個政策的方向所以如果有一個專法雖然說我們沒有辦法在一次在專法內把我們所有的願望都放進去但或許它是一個起點所以我覺得這對第一個問題我們的立法的這個目的或方向的話我覺得這是一個可以思考的點"},{"start":7675.896,"end":7698.149,"text":"特別是目前我可以看到的數據是大概有快要17萬的平台工作者以有這麼大量的工作者存在的情況之下其實如果說他們的勞工條件一直往下降或是處於一個不穩定的狀態的話這並不是一個很好也不是一個他們真的可以很自由的轉換工作的一個權利的一個狀態所以從條件的部分來說的話平台"},{"start":7699.89,"end":7720.212,"text":"我們這個三多方的關係裡面有業者有平台有消費者還有外送員看來看去唯一欠缺平衡的可能就是這個外送員這個平台還有一個調配權他可以控制他的一個運營模式業者他自己本來就有個店他也可以不要跟你外送他自己做內用消費者我可以不買我可以"},{"start":7720.632,"end":7749.291,"text":"覺得你貴了你自己加那麼多錢我可以到樓下去買我換別家都可以自己煮泡麵也可以但是唯一沒有一個平衡機制只能夠被動的去接受這個單子氣就是外送人所以這個我覺得這個專法的重點會在於說給這些人一個基本的地板這個題目是提到說是不是有個永續產業的一個部分我覺得從永續的角度來看這個專法也是非常重要的長期來看我們會覺得說一個企業或是一個整體的資本家他不願意"},{"start":7750.892,"end":7778.633,"text":"給太多薪水出去最後是他有害的因為就沒有人有錢去買他的產品所以以這個角度來看的話那我們如果說希望我們這個產業持續運作還是有人要外送有人要點然後有人願意送那對於這個多方關係裡面現在明顯比較弱勢的外送員來說的話給他一個最基礎的地板保障而不是讓他的條件可能會持續的滑落我覺得也是這個專法可以達到一個目的所以這是一個產業永續的非常重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":7780.194,"end":7797.194,"text":"第三個是我們法律的介入的制度的部分其實剛剛各位先進都有提到其實現在要給外送員的一個保障很多很多的方式我們傳統的僱傭跟廢僱傭給他全套保障是一個模式或者是推定的僱傭關係給他部分的保障也是一個模式"},{"start":7798.115,"end":7819.544,"text":"甚至我們台灣現在採取的我們還是傳統是雇用跟非雇用法可是我們在一些地方政府給予他一些地方規則去告訴他說你要保保險商業保險這也是一種模式但總而言之一個大方向就是我們不能夠讓他因為沒有正式的勞工關係就完完全全什麼都沒有作為一個人或作為一個基本的人或者是作為一個父親或母親"},{"start":7820.664,"end":7849.563,"text":"他对他家庭有责任的时候其实一个基本的保险是非常重要的所以我觉得这个专法虽然并没有目前没有专门去针对身份关系做一个设定但是大方向如果说我们要去找的话还是要想办法给他一个基本的保障我觉得这是一个可以期待的那如果可以在身份关系上面参考各国立法例不管刚刚提到的西雅图纽约州都是一个可以参考的对象还有欧盟还有很多很多的选项我们可以从别人的经验里面发现我们台湾怎么样比较合适都是可以参考的"},{"start":7850.624,"end":7876.354,"text":"那特別是剛有提到就是很多外送員很在意的這個停權然後這個申訴機制這個部分還是回到我們剛剛講的大原則平衡跟地板的一個問題所以這個如何提供一個管理權上面以及促進競爭跟別的平台競爭讓業者賺到更多的這個外送然後但是又不會過度影響到這個外送員他的權利提供怎麼樣的申訴機制讓他平衡"},{"start":7877.995,"end":7893.856,"text":"那我覺得這是一個專法我們會期待說它至少可以推進的一個部分就算沒有真的一個非常完美的機制至少有個透明度也覺得是非常重要的至少我可以公開說你到底什麼原因申訴的話要怎麼樣做我覺得這個都是初步可以去探討的部分"},{"start":7894.316,"end":7909.819,"text":"那如果說立法現在沒有辦法那麼完整的討論至少第一個大方向接下來授權各部會主管多端再去進行更細緻的規定也是可行的一個方向但大方向是要透明要有申訴的空間才有平衡才有地板我覺得這是可以參考的一個地方"},{"start":7910.66,"end":7936.014,"text":"最後就是聽完剛剛各位先進的一個各式各樣的討論跟擔憂我發現其實我們在探討這個法律的時候也發現說這不是一個單一部會可以去解決的問題各自屬於速發或者是其他部分那產業發展是屬於另外一個部會各式各樣的部會必須要共同來介入共同來協助才有辦法把這個議題解決要不然這個平衡很難達到以上是我這個簡短的心得分享謝謝各位"},{"start":7940.488,"end":7961.107,"text":"謝謝感謝傅博翔副教授我稍微補充一下我想要補充一下今天的方式就是大家第一輪全部講完之後因為剛剛我想也有平台業者說希望充分的溝通和討論如果真的有需要第二輪你要再發言你要再補充的話我這裡也歡迎你們再來登記好不好好那接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":7971.229,"end":7975.253,"text":"主席各位立院同仁以及行政官員還有各位今天參與公聽會的先進"},{"start":7977.85,"end":8002.062,"text":"其實 誠如剛剛我們副教授所講的就是因為它有跨部會以及有那麼多方方面面的面向必須要處理 必須要面對 必須要管理也因此才真的需要有一個貫穿的專法來去做一個最基礎平衡的保障而不是只是單靠單一部會的指引我想這是大家都可以理解跟認同的"},{"start":8002.702,"end":8027.556,"text":"外送專法它不是只是針對外送員不是針對外送平台還有包括餐廳跟消費者我常講說這是一個生態鏈因為我必須先開宗明義講我必須要先肯定一下這個當初會想出這個idea的人其實外送平台這樣的一個新興的商業模式也真的是蠻了不起的他會想出這樣的一個商業模式之後短時間內風靡世界各國"},{"start":8030.217,"end":8047.342,"text":"但是就是因為這樣的一個商業模式造成出來之後運行了幾年我們發覺生態系已經有點失衡了變成是一強三弱的一個狀況外送平台相對來講是比較強勢而消費者 餐廳以及外送員分別相對來講對應是相對比較弱勢的"},{"start":8050.163,"end":8076.119,"text":"可是这绝对不是一个健康的一个概念跟健康的一个环境所以我的期待绝对不是只是对单一的族群有利而是希望能够达到四足鼎立让这样的一个商业模式可长可久任何一个在这个范围里面的族群都可以充分获得它各自的合理的利益我觉得这才是良善因为我们整个会议室里面"},{"start":8077.02,"end":8084.333,"text":"大家也許不一定是外送員有外送員有餐廳代表有平台代表但更重要我們每一個人也都是潛在消費者"},{"start":8085.256,"end":8106.694,"text":"所以我們已經談論非常多但是在這邊因為今天是公聽會我就不太講我們細部的法條的部分但我從第九屆第十屆我們一直鼓吹倡議甚至第十屆我們提出外送平台外送專法到現在第十一屆真的能夠來去做實質的討論我肯定我們的主席廖主席"},{"start":8107.625,"end":8125.219,"text":"的用心但我們更希望是加速拿出版本可以做實質的討論在這個會期真的讓台灣的外送專法能夠正式上路而在外送專法正式上路的時候我跟今天在場的先進來承諾我一定會注意三個面向"},{"start":8127.373,"end":8155.643,"text":"規則要公開透明第二彈性跟保障要兼顧以及第三專業訓練要足夠規則公開透明剛大家都講了最重要就是外送平台跟外送員主管機關是要明定中央勞動部地方地方政府並且定期召開會議讓政策能夠持續的有改善的空間跟對話的機會還有政府訂令契約範本並且每個月提供"},{"start":8157.364,"end":8169.256,"text":"报酬薪资报酬名系给外送员货款名系给合作平台让各方都可以理解你的资讯公开透明第二弹性跟保障要兼顾"},{"start":8170.327,"end":8193.876,"text":"之前大家都討論到底這樣子一個關係是屬於是僱傭關係或是非僱傭派遣關係但是看得出來世界各國現在的潮流跟趨勢可能在這兩方之間因為這個特殊的商業模式所以走出了第三條路但不管第三條路或者是沿襲之前的路重點是基本的保障一定要有也因此我們講說最基本的"},{"start":8194.676,"end":8220.052,"text":"保險或是職災保險都應該要有提供的一個機會並且還有要有建立申訴的管道不只是外送員對於外送平台的申訴管道甚至本席的版本提出來之後辦公室也接獲商家的建議我也認為這是很好的提醒就是除了外送員有申訴管道以外商家也常常因為訂單送單的爭議而造成有不合理的一個規則"},{"start":8220.953,"end":8241.073,"text":"那既然如此也應該要有給商家一個申訴的管道第三 專業訓練要足夠交通安全 食品安全以及重大的職災或是重大的車禍的時候都應該有通報的義務但另外一方面 外送員也需要接受最低比例的一個交通安全講習"},{"start":8241.954,"end":8267.088,"text":"因為大家也都是用路人所以我們也希望是能夠讓大家都在一個足夠的安全訓練下讓整體的環境更加提升還有更重要平台要落實消費者合作商家以及外送員的個資保障因為之前就發生過有大規模的個資外洩而到目前其實不瞞各位說本席辦公室的同仁也有"},{"start":8269.056,"end":8291.43,"text":"各自外泄的狀況而到目前都還有深受其害所以我們講的是這一個部分就是如同剛剛我們有先進講到的它就不是只是單一部會的事情而是要跨部會那既然跨部會的話我們有明定主管機關但是各司其職各其他部會應該要負起責任的就應該要負起責任最後我想還是再一次強調"},{"start":8293.188,"end":8315.243,"text":"外送專法已經走到那麼久今天早上8點半的時候我們也一起開記者會我想對於現在所有大家的期待我們都聽到在今年的7月26號之前我必須要說本席有深受感動的是我站在路口跟大家拜票的時候有看到很多的機車騎士經過都給我們最大的支持當然"},{"start":8316.024,"end":8344.174,"text":"大家的支持我們都一定會銘記在心但更重要的是我們要的是要幫所有的族群爭取到一個合格合理的環境絕對不是只是針對外送平台開刀但是現在的一強三弱的情況如果能夠因為外送專法的一個建立而讓氏族鼎立讓台灣整體的從業環境更加的完善我想這是我們共同的期待再次感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":8348.783,"end":8352.052,"text":"感謝洪峰愷委員發言那現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8393.473,"end":8394.315,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9232.346,"end":9239.682,"text":"好現在繼續開會那現在請邱宇凡教授發言"},{"start":9257.349,"end":9281.83,"text":"主席跟與會先進 大家好因為時間蠻緊迫的我們剛剛前面很多的專家都已經講了很多我就不再贅述那個部分因為我們今天的核心是要討論這個專法剛剛我們前面的孫永連秘書長提到說跟我們今天在座與會的工會應該都非常了解專法這件事情已經講了6年我只想講幾件事情第一個 一份作業寫了6年還沒寫完會不會寫太久"},{"start":9283.86,"end":9298.23,"text":"一份作業寫了6年還沒有交卷要不要當掉這是我認為我自己作為平台勞動研究學術方面蠻痛心的一件事情我知道今天部長非常關心這件事部長也坐在這邊但是我還是很抱歉勞動部可能在上面就被當掉了"},{"start":9298.85,"end":9313.576,"text":"6年沒交卷 6年沒交作業這個我們真的覺得滿遺憾的所以我聽到部長說終於要提出專法覺得很好 非常感動這是一個很大的一個進步所以我們希望說提出專法它不是一個口號因為台灣不是沒有勞動法規"},{"start":9314.716,"end":9340.634,"text":"台灣的勞動法規有沒有用如果立了這麼多我們公會奮鬥這麼多年到世界各國去跑那到今天如果立了一個專法結果專法拿出來沒有功能我們是在立法立心酸的嗎這會讓人覺得很痛心那今天主席提了非常非常多全部都是重點我們希望可以把剛剛主席講的一切都變成是條文草案而不是只是那個立法說明因為立法說明沒有拘束力有拘束力是條文所以我簡單來講因為時間非常有限"},{"start":9344.156,"end":9373.2,"text":"第一個就是說為什麼今天大家對外送員專法立法這麼有共識因為很難有一個人只要一工作就可能面臨職災停權過勞低薪薪資浮動一次集滿沒有很多人可以得到這種禁慾所以外送員的狀況等於是產中之產所以現在有人應該不太會混出來反對要立法說外送員不值得保障所以外送員值得保障這件事情已經不需要討論了重點是要怎麼保障外送員才有用"},{"start":9373.76,"end":9388.272,"text":"所以沒有用的話 這個專法立了 外送委員就會覺得怎麼有法律對我都沒有用這會是一個令人蠻痛心的一件事情那剛剛前面很多專家都提到說目前的專法裡面我稍微看了一下很重要的是因為剛剛主席有特別提到"},{"start":9389.873,"end":9405.527,"text":"各位看一下就是說我不知道各位知不知道外送員的一天是怎麼度過的各位知道外送員怎麼接單嗎各位知道外送員的薪資結構嗎各位知道外送員怎麼被評分怎麼被停權嗎各位知道外送員不是案件記仇嗎各位知道外送員是績效制嗎"},{"start":9406.448,"end":9427.942,"text":"而且他是有那個很多的控制機制這個都已經被法院認證了而這所有的一切都跟他們在平台上工作有APP的演算法相關可是問題是我們有哪一部草案提到這件事所以如果沒有辦法去面對這個機制來立法的話我只能很遺憾的講啦我們今天是真的立法還是打假球"},{"start":9428.582,"end":9450.284,"text":"我沒有要反對立法我非常非常支持立法可是我立了一個沒有辦法保障外送員的法我覺得今天我們坐在這邊的工會幹部會不會比我更痛心因為我們國立大學不能兼職不然我都想去外送看看我會面臨什麼狀況所以我查了一下我把所有查案全部看完了很遺憾國民黨只有我們徐委員在立法說明提到其他版本一個字都沒提"},{"start":9450.985,"end":9470.772,"text":"演算法三個字一個字都沒提民進黨版本的部分有提及然後提完之後呢有提到民進黨版本還比較厲害提到停權不能夠為不利決定的部分的話不能夠用演算法的方式但是喔但是請問剛剛我們各位專家提到的我們怎麼去審查一個外送員有沒有被不公平派單"},{"start":9472.072,"end":9498.405,"text":"我們怎麼審查一個外送員有沒有不公平報仇我們怎麼審查一個外送員有沒有被不當停權今天趕來出席的外送員工會們如果你還在外送你會不會送黑名單你會不會永遠在等單不知道所以我就說外送員現在處於一種想要被保障但是沒有辦法的這個狀況之下我們勞動部也有這個也是沒有相關的應對我們還是很期待勞動部版本還沒出來"},{"start":9499.185,"end":9525.235,"text":"一出來就沒有 就見光死了 對不對目前老公屋沒有 我們予以深刻的期待匯聚6年的期待 每天都在期待所以我們看 台灣的外送平台大部分來自歐洲熊貓就是德商 德商的部分的話他全部 德國不流行外送 為什麼因為德國人他們的勞動條件不會忍受外送這種勞動條件所以德商全部跑到國外投資其中之一就是熊貓"},{"start":9526.215,"end":9553.484,"text":"到台灣來賺錢不要再講賺不夠了在歐洲賺多少我們都知道這邊有數據剛剛主席說拿出來對不對就在這裡可以上網公開資訊賺很多好嗎 OK結果我們賺完之後到台灣說我們賺不夠所以外送員不能保障太多我們會倒掉這件事會發生不用擔心這些平台都是跨國企業它會世界各國找哪一個國家的外送員保障最少就來投資因為能夠賺最多各位知道韓國的外送民主也是跟熊貓同一個老闆嗎"},{"start":9554.83,"end":9575.551,"text":"所以各位就是說這個是一個跨國的企業所有發生的事情在歐洲都發生過都可以看到所以合理工作目前台灣有規定但是勞檢無從規定所以我要講最後一點就是剛剛主席提示到現在各國怎麼立法對不對這不是草案 這去年通過的如果台灣定指引就有用請問歐盟是在立法立辛酸的嗎"},{"start":9576.212,"end":9596.01,"text":"它的法是27個國家全部適用沒有一個國家可以逃離這個規定全部都要求自動化決策監控每一個國家都要立法這已經不可能逃掉了所以現在Uber跟熊貓會不會跑來台灣會 因為台灣沒有規定所以這個如果台灣指引有效的話我不曉得歐盟在做什麼"},{"start":9596.61,"end":9613.195,"text":"所以我講最後一件事情就是說我們剛剛提到說要訂定型化契約勞動報訂指引很抱歉我覺得都不夠因為它沒有效力它沒有辦法強制它沒有辦法強制它只是一個呼籲跟立法草案說明是一樣的所以這個會變成一個很大的一個立法上的一個落差所以我們就問最後幾個問題因為剩3秒"},{"start":9614.875,"end":9638.389,"text":"我們的那個主管機關的部分的話針對這個草案的部分對於外送員最重要世界各國立法的核心APP對外送員的控制有沒有相應機制如果沒有的話我們草案只能說是一個利益良好但是在保障會不足的一個地方所以我覺得已經有法律可以參考了這個全文都是在網路上面所以如果主席想要看其他國家的部分的話這邊提供參考 謝謝"},{"start":9642.974,"end":9669.669,"text":"謝謝謝謝邱宇凡教授接下來請這個新竹市平台外送人員職業工會理事長文萬華發表各位委員各位與會的代表們大家好我是新竹市外送工會理事長文萬華今天非常感謝委員們召開這場外送專訪的公聽會"},{"start":9671.092,"end":9679.853,"text":"外送平台企業來台十幾年逃避企業責任為了追求更高的利潤把企業成本全部外部化"},{"start":9680.931,"end":9708.638,"text":"現在居然還將外送員要求的合理報酬刻意連結誤導成破壞運作的平衡甚至恐嚇消費者將增加運費意圖造成消費者對專法的不利而得輿論跟風向我就問店家消費者的費用早就增加不知道多少了平台的盈利也快速的成長但為何外送員的報酬還是不斷的下降你們不是說等同嗎Why"},{"start":9710.359,"end":9738.406,"text":"所以請不要再繼續綁架口喝消費者了外送專法不僅僅關係著14萬從事外送工作的家庭生計更有關著整個外送產業在台灣是否能夠永續健康蓬勃的發展我們也樂觀其成所以本會提出以下建議一資訊要透明外送員跑單需要掌握所有的工作資訊才能更加安全的更有效率的為大眾服務"},{"start":9739.71,"end":9757.083,"text":"我們要求平台的接單資訊必須要以繁體中文完整的揭示包括派送的時間地址樓層派送的順序里程與報酬等等好讓外送員能在接單前就能充分的評估是否會有潛在的風險"},{"start":9758.604,"end":9782.462,"text":"并且拥有自由的接单权利同时也必须要求平台外送人员聚单平台不得有任何门槛不利对待或是使用任何不利于外送人员的言算法二报酬要合理目前外送员的报酬不仅黑箱变动频繁缺乏底线甚至已经严重影响了所有的外送员的生活"},{"start":9783.516,"end":9800.328,"text":"根據聯合國國際勞工組織ILO報告中指出外送員需自備工作設備負擔稅付並且沒有任何福利勞健保以及退休的保障因此外送報酬至少應達到基本工資的1.5倍"},{"start":9802.406,"end":9827.7,"text":"也差不多是他講的270啦那像算一算的話現在是280280幾吧290幾差不多然後所以我們主張專法英明訂最單每單的最低的單價並規範包括時間里程樓層等所有勞務費用之基本計算的標準以及最低基本工資1.5倍的雙重保障"},{"start":9829.201,"end":9852.872,"text":"所有報酬計算的方式都必須要是可估算可預測並且可驗證的外送員的報酬的穩定就是增加社會的穩定而社會的穩定才是支撐整體外送產業的共同利益三保險要落實外送絕對是一項高風險的行業其實風險才是外送員最大的成本"},{"start":9853.732,"end":9881.282,"text":"你們絕對無法想像外送員在外送途中實際車禍過的比例到底有多高目前平台提供基本團保與第三責任險外送員若發生事故失去收入生活就會陷入困境例如我年初啊才嚴重車禍持股斷掉兩根開刀釘鋼釘休養半年還好我有保險但是很多人是兼職甚至全職卻沒有加入職業工會的"},{"start":9883.96,"end":9906.927,"text":"平台是用GoGo道路來營利所以外送人員的安全保障是平台業者不可推卸的社會責任所以應該為所有的外送人員加保職業災害保險費用應該由平台全部支付並建立起完善的安全教育給予最基本的防護措施是停權要公平"},{"start":9907.714,"end":9918.639,"text":"目前平台擁有絕對的權利外送員只要被誤判或者是遭到客訴平台不需要舉證就可以立即將外送員停權外送員就會頓失經濟依靠"},{"start":9921.007,"end":9940.68,"text":"程序正義是所有信任的基石因此應該設立仲裁機制負責專責處理外送員與平台之間的爭議平台應負舉證的責任如果沒有明確的違法事證平台不得先行懲處若誤判停權應該合理補償外送員及恢復其工作權"},{"start":9941.977,"end":9954.226,"text":"最後我想說外送員日曬雨淋穿梭在每個街頭在每個城市裡的角落勤勤懇懇的為大眾服務但多年來卻沒有任何的法律保障"},{"start":9955.546,"end":9975.701,"text":"我們並非要求特權推動專法是為了要補上制度的缺口外送專法的制定是要讓外送帶來的便利不再以剝削壓榨高風險為代價有了專法平台不再黑箱外送員才能安心工作店家與消費者也能更信任平台政府亦能對平台進行合理的規範與監督"},{"start":9977.842,"end":9990.05,"text":"本會在此懇請所有的委員和所有的社會大眾一起共同支持外送專法的制定讓外送員的專法成為全亞洲最有保障最合理也是最公平的立法典範謝謝各位謝謝文理師長發言接下來請陳昭資委員發言"},{"start":10006.994,"end":10013.161,"text":"主席各位專家學者各位立法院同事還有部會的首長大家好那"},{"start":10014.673,"end":10042.255,"text":"民眾黨創黨主席柯文哲他在擔任台北市長的時候就非常重視外送員權益這個議題所以當時他還訂定了提在台北市政府的時候就提出了相關的自治條例那2024年他參選總統的時候就把這個外送員權益專法列為我們最重要的這個政見事實上全台灣第一部外送法這個外送員的專法提案就是剛剛有出席的在這個我們的民眾黨的前一任的立委"},{"start":10043.616,"end":10061.494,"text":"賴香林率先提出了可惜我們必須老實講在過去民進黨在完全執政時代我們屬於的法案未必能夠順利推動所以再造成就是說這個新興產業已經存在了超過10年但是相關的法規就一直都沒有辦法跟上那這一屆的國會有新的契機"},{"start":10062.535,"end":10076.791,"text":"事實上民眾黨在第一個會期就把它列為優先法案但是我們一直等到第四會期非常感謝廖偉強委員他擔任召委之後我們經過溝通很快的排審目前我們已經完成了專題的詢答"},{"start":10078.413,"end":10100.912,"text":"好那今天進行公聽會那大家都非常期待下來就是逐條的這個二讀的實質的逐條這個審查的部分那我們在訂定民眾黨黨員在訂定我們這個專法之前我們有請教外送員的這個工會還有許多外送員的夥伴們的一些意見我們收到最多的反應是平台不斷的減薪導致非特定的熱門商區的這個"},{"start":10103.334,"end":10132.754,"text":"外送員換算下來薪資還低於基本工資基本時薪如果再加上油資啊機車的這個保養啊這個太舊那常常都是做白工另外外送員他們遇到問題的時候啊他向平台申訴永遠只得到罐頭訊息就是自私的回答等於沒有回答所以這個申訴制度可以說是完全是失效的那如果遇到惡意檢舉當然剛剛有提到平台上沒有查證情況下就直接把它停權了"},{"start":10134.214,"end":10161.147,"text":"那讓外送員的這個生計受到影響他也只能自己承擔那我先以兩個實際例子來舉例第一個案例是今年7月Uber Eats他片面宣布要調降外送員的報酬好像每一單至少降了19塊以上那勞動部雖然有發函要求暫停變更那理由是說這樣就被迫因為收入要降低所以被迫他多接單多接單表示什麼他在道路上的風險他工作的風險就是要提高的但Uber Eats並未理會"},{"start":10161.827,"end":10167.312,"text":"好勞動部的這個要求他反而他的說明辯稱啦他是把部分燙製獎勵轉為基本費用絕非調降"},{"start":10171.36,"end":10192.894,"text":"但事實上外送員的薪水就是下降這個凸顯說法制化的必要性以及接單費的計算方式必須透明可預測而且要由第三方來驗證避免平台用各種名目來調整來降低報酬那這個風險最後都是外送員自己要承擔那第二個案例是停權的部分過去有外送員他的理由是因為讓顧客感到不適"},{"start":10195.316,"end":10222.478,"text":"不舒服那个不是过度眼神接触那招平台无预警的停权虽然平台这个后续已经表示说恢复该外送员的这个接单的这个权限而且强调说有申诉管道但是这个已经反映了平台对于不是这种很模糊很主观的指标判断标准不明程序上也没有也没有及时有效的一个救济所以外送员就在没有查证下他就直接被停权剥夺工作权了"},{"start":10223.098,"end":10243.683,"text":"那這個期間他的生計怎麼辦呢所以顯示這個平台目前目前的申訴管道是虛設的需要有制度化的比例原則舉證責任以及快速賦權機制來做一個保障所以我們黨團的這個重點條文包括接單費計算方式要有外送平台跟同業工會外送平台的同業工會以及"},{"start":10244.463,"end":10271.272,"text":"相關工會 工會相關的工會來共同擬定剛剛邱老師也擔心說很多演算方法什麼好像條文都沒有進去但是如同我們處理方式在跟這個大家關心的護病餅一樣就是因為它很複雜在不同的地區ICU啦這個病房等等所以我們是要求一個審議委員會那個審議委員會有一半以上是這個護理人員那我們也是覺得他們來共同擬定那當然我們訂了基本原則這個基本費不得低於基本工資的三分之一"},{"start":10271.932,"end":10297.392,"text":"那平台業者必須建立有效的申訴管道來針對讓他們能夠停權違規報酬有申訴的方式不能再用罐頭訊息來回答那另外關於保險各自保護還有職災通報我們也有相對應的規範我們希望到最後能夠大家一起理性討論規範一個對於外送員合作商家外送平台還有消費者都是一個四方全域都能夠獲得有保障的制度謝謝"},{"start":10301.732,"end":10311.836,"text":"謝謝 感謝陳昭資委員發言接下來請陳宏宇我們北市網路平台外送員職業工會秘書長發言"},{"start":10320.188,"end":10343.414,"text":"主席 在座的長官先進 各位大家好我是台北市網路平台外送員職業工會秘書長六年前我們工會剛成立 也是公聽會六年後我們也還在這裡外送平台進入台灣已經十多年了外送員其實早已經是我們的城市裡面不可或缺的一環"},{"start":10345.034,"end":10371.684,"text":"外送員很多人投入這一個工作是因為工作彈性可以兼顧生活和家庭目前有高達七成的外送員是兼職沒有錯同時外送員女性的比例也從最早的3%到現在已經有13%這樣的彈性確實為了不少的外送員帶來了額外的收入同時也兼顧家庭和生活的自由但是我們發現"},{"start":10372.864,"end":10395.743,"text":"平台現在為了追求效率和獲利的同時卻用許多的制度把風險轉嫁給我們外送員同時呢他們要面對交通的危險收入的不穩甚至於被演算法停權的不確定性今天我們希望讓制度可以不只講求方便而是要朝公平和保障前進"},{"start":10398.359,"end":10419.097,"text":"好 大家可以先來幫我看一下 這個是外送員很常看到的一張圖平台說外送員是自由工作者 外送員真的自由嗎請看一下這一張case 這一張case裡面在圈起來的地方 外送加單加了三趟的收送平台向三家餐廳各收取了35%的手續費"},{"start":10421.599,"end":10432.035,"text":"也向三位消費者收取外送服務費三筆都收了同時請大家注意但是卻只給外送員一筆的外送報酬"},{"start":10434.264,"end":10459.638,"text":"再幫我看一下這些圖這兩張圖平台能夠任意調整演算法參數讓同樣的距離同樣的時間同一筆任務不同的外送員收入卻不同如果外送超時就會被懲處扣分甚至於停權外送員承擔了更多的風險跟壓力卻拿不到對等報酬請問我只想問一個問題中間這兩個不同的任務"},{"start":10462.16,"end":10464.816,"text":"外送員的報酬少掉的去了哪裡"},{"start":10466.431,"end":10494.942,"text":"好 我們工會要求的並不是特權而是合理透明的報酬制度報酬應該要回歸公共運輸的管理邏輯建立清楚標準我們希望是以外送的基本運價加距離費跟時間費的制度同時要明定每一公里最低的合理報酬這個合理報酬應該要反映勞動成本就像主席說的包含油資 包含保險包含車損跟等待時間"},{"start":10496.483,"end":10504.041,"text":"而且平台應該要跟工會有公告運價計算方式的協商權不可以任意的下修或浮動壓低"},{"start":10507.321,"end":10530.876,"text":"好 我們再來看一下申訴問題大家看一下這幾張圖外送員在上午收到了提升品質提醒後續在下班前 快要下班的時間收到了未達品質提醒再來告訴他 他會被停權想申訴 沒有門 請大家看一下因為我們只有罐頭訊息跟文字客服可以幫我們解答"},{"start":10531.856,"end":10548.013,"text":"所以我們工會要求要明定停權理由程序和期限不可以用模糊抽象的名義任意停權同時要建立第三方的審議機制就像剛剛委員所說的由第三方的機構含工會代表"},{"start":10548.413,"end":10565.699,"text":"一起參與審議 確保公正公開平台也應該要提供清楚的通知和救濟管道讓外送員有申訴跟回覆權保障他們的工作權讓平權不再黑箱 申訴不再無門好 我們再來看一下我們的第三大訴求"},{"start":10566.539,"end":10592.029,"text":"平台為了追求效率和獲利不斷的壓低報酬要求外送員多跑單 延長工時我們主張外送員必須要有離線權跟休息自主權不能為了獎金或評分被迫超時應該要透過定型化契約明顯定義平台和外送員的雙方的權利和義務防止平台片面修改條款無預警的懲處或停權"},{"start":10594.554,"end":10597.746,"text":"讓勞動關係是真正的對等並且有救濟有保障"},{"start":10601.041,"end":10624.855,"text":"再來第四大訴求外送員每一天在街頭奔波風險非常的高交通真的安全嗎為了趕快時間可以送到應該要強制納入職業災害保險法我們希望可以用平台負擔保費確保外送員在發生意外的時候能夠及時獲得保障讓安全不是口號而是平台應盡的法律責任"},{"start":10626.232,"end":10641.997,"text":"最後我們期望外送專法不是只有保障外送員而是為新型態的勞動建立長遠的制度讓彈性的工作也可以有保障讓每位外送員送的不是只有餐而是外送員更是一份值得尊重的工作謝謝謝謝 感謝陳秘書長接下來請陳育安全國外送產業工會理事長發言"},{"start":10659.907,"end":10681.366,"text":"各位委員 各位與會的主管機關店家跟司機大家好我這邊是全國外送產業工會理事長陳愉安首先我們有幾點的對於專法上面的訴求第一個是平台過往可以匆匆容容有任有餘的與工會代表共同討論如何去制定保障外送遠勝之道店家權益"},{"start":10681.986,"end":10696.408,"text":"但如今我們在已經排審已經進入公聽會的階段卻匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬的召開相關聲明說要阻擋草案包含誘導消費者相關的一些文件調查民意調查"},{"start":10698.05,"end":10713.709,"text":"也表示說我們必須還要再召開4場以上的公聽會那各公會過往4年以來不論是勞動部召開的9次協商會議甚至到平台併購案的多場審查會議到各地地方自治條例等的多邊會談"},{"start":10715.051,"end":10744.352,"text":"平台業者都可以與工會坐下來理性的討論逐步去修正目前不公平的制度但目前在排審前夕平台卻還要宣稱說我們還需要再開四場以上的公聽會那過往這麼多的會議有這麼多次的機會可以去扭轉這樣子不公平的待遇那目前彷彿忽然驚覺制度即將成形所以趕快急於表態這種臨時救火師的動作無根本無助於制度上面的健全"},{"start":10744.952,"end":10770.814,"text":"只會讓外送員、店家跟消費者再度陷入不確定與混亂的一個狀況之中那第二點我們同時希望演算法應該公開透明像剛剛與會先進都有提到說目前不管是薪資報酬甚至到店家的抽成制度或是相關的行銷費用其實都完全不公開所以演算法公開透明至少應該要揭露"},{"start":10771.674,"end":10790.964,"text":"評分甚至到派單的機制甚至到燙獎的機制建立外部的監督機制有主管機關或獨立的第三方定期審查演算法的公平性那演算法意義申請機制讓外送員能具有具體的申訴及救濟管道第4點保障基本"},{"start":10792.467,"end":10818.924,"text":"報酬的制度我們希望可以制定每單基本費的下限與每小時的最低基本薪資的保障因為外送屬於高風險高流動性那會受到天氣路況以及平台的政策影響收入非常的不穩定所以我們會希望每單的基本費是目前基本實行的三分之一同時也要保障每個小時預防平台有所謂的空單機制去保障所謂的薪資"},{"start":10819.944,"end":10827.27,"text":"目前平台之前宣稱說每小時的時薪根據計算出來是270剛剛與會的時候突然又提高變成290先前的"},{"start":10832.936,"end":10853.502,"text":"資料顯示最高他們說最會跑的外送員每個小時的時薪可以高達312那很多外送員很疑惑我們這樣子跑完全沒有到這個金額平台是怎麼樣計算的這個就是牽扯到所謂的工時問題有點像是先前碟煉花遊覽車的事件平台的算法工時計算"},{"start":10855.622,"end":10880.128,"text":"計算接單到送達的期間假設我們每一位司機今天上線6個小時每個小時平台只給一張訂單每張單假設是60塊我一張單送10分鐘所以對於平台的算法就是我整個實際配送的時間只有60分鐘所以我的時薪高達360塊完全排除了所謂的備請時間我們上線其實就可以"},{"start":10881.158,"end":10887.825,"text":"準備提供勞動但是完全沒有計算如果正確的計算方式包含被請時間的話時薪只有60元"},{"start":10889.98,"end":10911.048,"text":"我們整理了過往平台每一次砍薪每一次調整的相關新聞相關的報導平台都說他們沒有砍薪只是進行調整不管是什麼樣的調整就只有調整所以從2021年每單60元起很好的調整到40塊那這個不是砍薪這根本就是睜眼說瞎話"},{"start":10912.415,"end":10933.822,"text":"好 那這個同時也延伸出來所謂柴雞的問題剛剛也有提到說所謂很多外送人可能會在路上碰到交通的車禍 交通的風險不知道大家外送有沒有看過很多極端的訂單我們曾經有司機接到99瓶礦泉水的訂單甚至到前幾天一次12包甚至到30包"},{"start":10935.903,"end":10954.381,"text":"帶裝衛生紙的訂單甚至有金爐還有塑膠五斗櫃這一些完全都違反了目前的交通條例的88條那外送員我們是騎機車配送並不是開貨車那這樣子的狀況去勉強在這些訂單是不是也會進而以發交通上面的風險"},{"start":10955.987,"end":10972.958,"text":"另外就是建立一個停權身負的制度目前平台的身負制度都是裁判跟求證都是我的人那某些平台甚至要求司機說我因為要保障個人資料保護法如果你今天被檢舉請你自行提供相關資訊"},{"start":10974.259,"end":10998.873,"text":"司機就很疑惑我今天跑了12個小時你沒有給我具體的時間段你要保護客人沒有跟我講是哪一筆訂單但是你可以給我具體的時間段我可以提交相關的證明那我跑12小時難道我要把12小時的錄影時間錄影的片段全部上傳平台嗎這個也非常的奇怪那最後是店家上面的問題因為我們的店家代表有指出"},{"start":10999.813,"end":11023.543,"text":"目前在店家部分店家如果因為商品售完或者是說店內來不及店家拒絕訂單每一筆訂單平台還會額外扣15塊如果是參與行銷費用行銷活動每筆訂單再扣11塊再加上高額32到40%的抽成我們看到國外店家抽成美國是15%韓國是25%"},{"start":11026.264,"end":11037.091,"text":"說沒要求也要把店家的抽成明確化謝謝大家謝謝感謝成員理事長接下來請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":11053.19,"end":11075.803,"text":"主席福威同仁大家好感謝今天我們這個機會來這邊討論外送產業鏈健全的一個問題跟權益促進也很感謝在這邊參與的夥伴們本席跟許多眾多立法院的同仁都陸續提出外送平台管理及從業人員的權益保障法的一個草案"},{"start":11076.583,"end":11100.122,"text":"目的很清楚最主要是在很快速的變動的社會情況下要為外送人員合作的廠商還有廣大的消費者建立一個基本的保障制度讓政府外送平台跟外送人員三方之間的角色定位更清楚保障外送人員的權益而且希望這個平台能夠更為安全公平的制度下來永續發展"},{"start":11101.463,"end":11113.284,"text":"那麼根據資策會的一個資料我們外送平台的這個民眾已經超過了七成那投入工作的人員從2019年的四萬五千人增加到今天已經十五萬人"},{"start":11114.656,"end":11130.235,"text":"那麼整個的狀況是已經支撐這整個外送平台的這樣一個產業鏈自從整個民眾日常生活跟地方經濟的重要環節那麼長期卻在游離在現在的一個法制之外那也不是傳統的故宮"},{"start":11131.676,"end":11157.554,"text":"也不是没有受到完整的职业的安全保障所以在制度层面外送人员合作的厂商跟消费者长期在法律保障的不足当中所以许多外送人员在外送平台单方面的契约定性解释下以自由工作者freelance的身份在接单表面上好像有弹性但实际上平台透过演算法来决定订单的分配费率"},{"start":11158.935,"end":11184.833,"text":"評價跟獎懲機制外送人員往往只能被動的接受那如果有爭議或者是遭受封鎖或發生相關的事故那麼整個維護的途徑極為困難因為這樣的處境所以我們整個勞動市場產生了一個結構性的問題那麼外送人員 廠商跟消費者幾乎沒有溢價能力那麼發生爭端的時候又常常求助無門"},{"start":11185.854,"end":11203.701,"text":"所以外送人員的職業性的交通安全與職業風險比傳統的勞工更高可是卻沒有對應的制度化的一個保障那麼這也是此次立法的一個出發點讓勞動的保障契約的透明跟數位的經濟能夠同步前進"},{"start":11205.754,"end":11226.462,"text":"這個草案不僅是針對外送平台跟契約各方面的權利義務做出明確的規範那要求中央政府機關來訂定契約的範本建立資訊揭露跟申訴的一個制度確保報酬計算的透明 爭議可以追溯讓外送平台不再只成為一個演算法黑箱的一個特權地帶"},{"start":11227.262,"end":11253.004,"text":"那麼本席要強調這個專法在規範交通安全與教育訓練的這個部分那麼專法應該要納入新加入的外送人員應該要接受六小時的實體教育訓練內容要包括職業安全、交通安全跟食品衛生安全並且每年平台業者還需要至少提供兩小時的持續教育確保外送人員在長期服務當中不斷更新交通相關的觀念"},{"start":11253.965,"end":11272.898,"text":"重要的是外送人員如果在執行期間發生重大的交通事故那麼經認定為造勢的原因的話必須要在三個月內完成48小時道路交通安全的一個講習這不只保障外送人員自身的安全更是對所有用路人的一個負責"},{"start":11274.019,"end":11301.692,"text":"那麼有些人會想說為什麼要訂專法現有勞基法道路交通管理條例可以調整但是本席這邊強調因為外送產業的一個平台經營商家的一個合作消費糾紛跟資訊治理早就已經超過單一法規能夠處理的範圍專法的目的不只是為了保障外送人員更是讓所有人在這樣一個生態系當中包含合作的商家消費者甚至是一般"},{"start":11302.452,"end":11321.906,"text":"用路人都能夠獲得合理安全可預期的一個保護所以我們要看得更遠這個專法不是只為了外送人員更是為了整個社會外送人員安全上路交通秩序就會更為穩定事故風險降低受益的不只是外送產業而是每一個用路人每一個消費者"},{"start":11322.766,"end":11342.454,"text":"那麼外送平台在這套制度當中也會因為法制的明確性而降低糾紛的風險那我們可以這樣子來良性的循環那這部法律的一個精神呢是讓外送平台不再以自己只是仲介者為由來迴避所有的管理責任"},{"start":11343.374,"end":11358.762,"text":"外送平台掌握所有的訂單演算法評價跟報酬資料時它就不再只是被動的技術服務者而是整個外送產業鏈條的一個實質管理者這樣的角色要承擔相應的社會責任跟管理的義務"},{"start":11359.722,"end":11376.433,"text":"那麼這部外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法不是為了阻礙產業的發展而是要讓產業業更為永續讓每一位勞工得到應有的尊重跟待遇讓每一個人都能夠安心使用外送的服務這個是我們對新世代產業經濟勞動型態應有的制度回應"},{"start":11380.256,"end":11402.901,"text":"那麼傳統的勞僱關係也在改變政府如果不主動介入來處理一些規範就會讓大量處於高風險的從業人員陷於法律真空形成新社會的一個不平等那麼要確保創新科技不能以犧牲產業勞工的權益作為安全的代價那本來本席也期待"},{"start":11405.07,"end":11433.889,"text":"這個主管機關在法案通過之後呢能夠與地方政府業者還有產業工會來合作建立透明可監督的執行機制確保法條不是只有在紙上保障而是能夠實際落實最後再次強調外送產業是現代社會的縮影他反映出我們如何在便利與風險之間達到平衡也檢視著政府如何在科技與人權之間秉持原則我們推動這部法律不是為了干預市場"},{"start":11434.409,"end":11445.549,"text":"而是为了让市场更健康更安全更有尊严谢谢感谢 谢谢林倩琪委员发言接下来请李坤臣委员发言"},{"start":11453.554,"end":11470.331,"text":"謝謝主席那今天我們未完委員會舉辦這個外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案的公聽會那謝謝所有的與會先進提出許多寶貴的意見那也作為我們日後修法的一個參考大家都很關心外送專法"},{"start":11471.051,"end":11487.125,"text":"希望能夠創造外送員的權益消費者 店家 平台多贏但是我也特別關心在外送平台的經濟當中傳統的人力資源 管理的職能像任務分配 薪酬的設定"},{"start":11487.805,"end":11516.744,"text":"績效的評估還有紀律的處分大規模被自動化系統所取代這個就被稱為是一個演算法的管理演算法取代了人類的管理者執行以下重要的任務比如說第一個任務的分配跟調度系統根據即時的數據決定派單給哪一個外送員第二個薪酬的設定演算法基於多種的變數比如說距離的時間或是一些高峰時段的動態"},{"start":11518.125,"end":11542.567,"text":"動態的計價 來計算每筆訂單的報酬第三 績效的評估系統持續追蹤而且量化外送員的各項表現的指標第四 紀律處分跟解僱演算法可以根據它的預設的規則對於違反平台政策的外送員執行警告 暫時停權甚至是永久停用帳號的處分"},{"start":11544.328,"end":11566.073,"text":"這些演算法的內部的運作邏輯對於外送員還有消費者來講往往是一個不透明的黑箱也引發了對勞工的權益 市場的公平還有社會責任的深刻疑慮所以外送專法要能夠保障外送員的權益如何讓演算法更公開透明是一個非常重要的關鍵"},{"start":11567.413,"end":11581.329,"text":"我們民進黨立法院黨團有提案外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法的草案基本上位於為台灣平台工作者的權益保障奠定了一個良好的基礎"},{"start":11582.37,"end":11604.589,"text":"但是呢 針對演算法管理所帶來的一些挑戰本席在這邊再提出一些具體的建議未來也會再做一個補充的提案希望能夠讓我們這個外縱的專法針對演算法這部分 能夠更加的細緻化的處理第一個 導入演算法透明度的義務"},{"start":11606.03,"end":11622.087,"text":"那這個我們的版本呢有針對定型化的契約包含報酬停權的這些項目但是沒有要求平台要介入這些結果的演算法的邏輯那所以我也建議說要克與平台業者"},{"start":11622.748,"end":11649.286,"text":"演算法资讯的揭露义务要求平台要有清晰易懂的语言向外送员揭露以下自动化决策的主要的参数规则跟指令譬如说任务的分配跟调度的系统薪酬的计算的系统绩效的评估系统等等那这个不是要平台的这一个程式码而是要知道说他们的这一个演算的逻辑是怎么样在保送"},{"start":11650.506,"end":11676.645,"text":"保障外送員知情權的同時也兼顧平台的營業秘密第二 強化燙刺前的資訊揭露民進黨黨團的版本也規定了基本報酬不得低於基本的運價還有最低的工資但沒有規範外送員在接單前應該獲得哪些資訊來判斷這次的燙刺是否符合經濟的效益"},{"start":11677.405,"end":11694.6,"text":"所以我們也希望說在條文上面能夠增加讓外送員在每次接單前的知情同意權能夠做出一個獨立的判斷保障他的實質的收入第三 確立重大決策的人工審核權"},{"start":11697.643,"end":11723.953,"text":"民進黨黨團的草案有一個規範第七條跟第十條規範了終止契約的條件還有申訴的制度但也沒有明確要求對演算法做出的重大決定必須經過人工審核所以我也希望說再增訂一款明確賦予外送員要求人工審核的一個權利第四 明確定義工作時間以防堵薪資的漏洞"},{"start":11724.733,"end":11752.695,"text":"那黨團的這個第三條的草案第三條是規定外送的服務期間從接受訂單到完成訂單與外送員上線期間這個APP上線到下線那也規定說這個外送服務期間的換算的時薪不得低於最低的工資這是一個良好的起點但是我會建議最低報酬的計算基礎除了外送的服務時間的話"},{"start":11754.096,"end":11776.601,"text":"要考慮納入一定比例的在線的後單的時間確保外送員獲得公平的勞動的對價第五 賦予數據可攜帶以促進集體的協商當然黨團的草案有要求平台業者要保存外送服務契約服務期間報酬清澈的這些紀錄至少五年"},{"start":11777.501,"end":11804.889,"text":"并应有关机关要求提供调阅我也希望说在赋予每位外送员的权利可以要求平台提供其个人所有工作数据的完整机器可读副本完整的探测的历史收入的明细所有绩效的指标还有顾客评分记录可以为未来的老师协商提供更坚实的基础总而言之"},{"start":11805.889,"end":11824.424,"text":"民进党党团的版本为外送员的权益保障迈出了关键的一步如果能在此基础上面针对上述演算法演算法的具体的规范会让这一步的外送专访更具前瞻性跟时效性真正在数位平台时代"},{"start":11825.365,"end":11844.796,"text":"我們重新平衡平台外送員還有消費者之間的權利關係建構一個更公平透明而且更具人性尊嚴的平台勞動新規範那以上的報告就交各位謝謝謝謝李坤成委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":11852.355,"end":11880.718,"text":"好 謝謝主席在座的所有與會專家還有我們的政府官員包括我們剛剛發言過的很多的委員我是王正旭醫師那我本身是一個平常是在擔任臨床工作的醫師那今天對於這個查案我覺得它的重要性遠超過我的想像跟理解"},{"start":11881.158,"end":11905.745,"text":"所以很謝謝廖委員今天能夠排這個宮廷會那事實上也是在兩個禮拜之前因為我們有相關的這個詢答所以那個時候包括林岳勳委員還有我也認同說這是一個非常重要也麻煩這個廖委員能夠提供我們這個宮廷會的機會很謝謝廖召委真的能夠把這個宮廷會"},{"start":11907.945,"end":11925.82,"text":"讓大家可以共同的來發表或者是來建議我們的主管機關如何針對這個專法有更周延的一個討論的得到的結論跟希望未來這個比較好的一個完整的這個立法的部分"},{"start":11926.576,"end":11943.376,"text":"那我相信剛剛主管機關都已經聽到很多重要的聲音那我這邊在提到的就是有關於第一個部分就是要麻煩等一下要回應的地方就是包括說有關於這個我們吳董事長所提到的"},{"start":11944.197,"end":11966.058,"text":"針對於在設計匯率審議制度的部分在財務透明化的基礎之下我覺得這是一個重要的等一下看在回應的部分有什麼樣的思考模式第二部分就是賴香寧的榮譽顧問她對於公平會有一些所看到的書面報告有一些意見"},{"start":11966.718,"end":11995.588,"text":"那這部分等一下是不是請陳副處長也能夠做一些說明針對於提到有關於價格干預措施影響自由市場的部分那第三個部分就是邱委員副教授有提到演算法真的很需要有好的監督跟管理機制那這部分也麻煩到時候洪部長或者是可以讓我們知道一下未來針對演算法能夠做多做哪一些在這部法律裡面需要去做有所規範"},{"start":11996.728,"end":12016.658,"text":"第四部分就是有關於剛剛聽到陳宇竿理事長提到這個外送品項竟然是那麼的複雜後來現在才知道原來還有82項外送的這些item是可以被點到的那我們這個平台基本上當初我相信大家都很清楚知道是為了大家在這個"},{"start":12017.798,"end":12032.865,"text":"現代生活的方便度各方面不管是從飲食的需求或者是各方面生活的這些便利性所創造出來一個產業那如果把它變成現有的物流的話那在規範上如何能夠更有"},{"start":12034.125,"end":12050.384,"text":"他基礎之上所需要設定的一些相關的內容物如何做好規範我想這個也是非常非常的重要所以這四大部分等一下也麻煩我們主管機關在回應的時候都能夠有所琢磨"},{"start":12051.158,"end":12067.804,"text":"那我相信剛剛大家很多很多的委員專家學者都已經把目前針對這個需求性還有在這個專法設立過程當中所必須要去注意到的事情我相信這個公聽會"},{"start":12069.304,"end":12087.502,"text":"是帶給我們的主管機關尤其是我們的這個勞動部在處理這個專法的時候有更完整更周延的一些想法快跟準都非常重要可是我們也不希望在這個快跟準的過程當中"},{"start":12088.523,"end":12115.519,"text":"透過共聽會這樣的安排能夠把所有的應該要思考進來的部分一起共同思考進來這個是大家所期待的那我本來是有準備了一張幾張幻燈片那這邊就簡單的再重複一次就是有關於基本報酬的計算方式跟最低保障這應該要有雙重的保證那這部分我們也希望能夠一定要來入法這是第一部分"},{"start":12115.979,"end":12145.419,"text":"第二部分就是有关于终止契约的过程的处理机制一定要非常非常的完整避免去影响到所有的相关的这些业者或者是我们的外送员受到不当的影响再过来就是有关于工作时间大家都也了解七成到八成的我们这些外送员事实上他是属于一个承担业者就是他是透过希望能够有更好的工作"},{"start":12146.86,"end":12166.82,"text":"時間的自由跟離線權的保障這個都是需要我們在這個不法律裡面要去做好的安排那最後有關於這個天然災害造成的影響我看到這個民進黨版本是在第13條有一些規範不過針對於在承攬業者在非"},{"start":12167.981,"end":12191.467,"text":"屬於由政府來公布的這些天然災害的時候還有其他需要做的保障也希望能夠透過現在的職業安全衛生法跟相關的這個幾附要點裡面也都能夠把它保障進來這部分我們也希望能夠在這個法條裡面能夠來再加強那最後的部分我相信今天的公聽"},{"start":12192.367,"end":12221.733,"text":"的過程裡面大家應該都會了解也會掌握到未來這部法律希望能夠帶給這個產業有更完整的一個保障以上的意見提供給大家做參考謝謝謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請台灣美國商會運輸與物流委員會主席馬培智那個主席發言"},{"start":12227.017,"end":12242.414,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員謝謝各位來賓我是台灣美國商會交通運輸及物流的委員會的主席我同時也是業者代表就是我是Uber E還有Uber在台灣負責公共政策還有政府事務的"},{"start":12243.855,"end":12253.807,"text":"總監那很高興今天有這個機會跟大家分享那其實成如一開始工會的時候特別提到其實過去有非常多的溝通的機會那其實呢如果是這個以吳伯義來講我們其實在這個兩年多前其實當時剛剛那個這個"},{"start":12258.131,"end":12285.166,"text":"賴香林這個顧問其實他當時辦的這個公聽會的時候其實我也曾經有出席跟他表達其實平台對於要有一個法制化的規定去做相關的規定其實我們是不反對這件事情但更重要的是這裡面的細節和它可能會產生後面的延伸的效應到底是什麼它其實需要很充分的對話很具體的深入的研究還有剛剛其實提到後面還有很多的關於這個公聽會其實主要是針對合併案然後還有"},{"start":12286.627,"end":12309.662,"text":"我們在跟勞動部辦的這個酒廠的會議裡面其實多數跟討論的不是專法就是現行的東西所以的確這是第一個討論的起始點那我們也很樂意分享我們的想法其實剛剛也很多人講到這個外送產業其實本來就是一個遷移法重全生的產業大家講平台平台平台是聚集了所有想要上來做生意或是買東西的人一起上來"},{"start":12310.542,"end":12331.019,"text":"所以其實消費者當然想要便宜快速高品質的服務外送員他希望能夠安全能夠得到保障而且跟所有勞工都一樣他希望他能夠在同樣的條件底下我能夠得到更高的報酬這更好的事情但同時我也想要能夠有隨時上下限決定要不要接單一個棄單也不會受到懲罰的一個自由的工作的情況"},{"start":12332.1,"end":12354.253,"text":"商家當然希望可以透過平台把他的營運範圍從他的商家的周邊延伸到更遠的地方然後以前做不到的生意然後同時我能夠成本越低越好我盡量不要被抽成所以這裡面每一件事情那我回來講到平台平台就需要能夠達到更多的交易對平台會有更好的好處因為平台的收入是來自於交易"},{"start":12355.013,"end":12371.766,"text":"還有交易的條件這裡面每一件事情其實都是相互撤軸因為能量不滅這裡面其實只有一方是真的在付錢進來的所以當裡面的這個平衡關係改變的時候勢必會導致付錢的這一方其實有消費者的改變我講這是一個不爭的事實當然其實今天很多各位提到說"},{"start":12372.826,"end":12393.768,"text":"我今天只是要保护在这个里面因为我们今天要讨论的专法其实很有趣它叫做外送平台的从业人员的保障还有平台的管理但是在这个环境里面当我们要提高保障改变现在的平衡我知道刚刚有委员特别提到说公平会提的东西其实它就是一个经济学上的现实"},{"start":12394.328,"end":12406.816,"text":"我們當然要去面對這個東西的確就是不要陷入各說各話的狀態所以我認為需要有第三方很好的經濟學家進來一起來看這件事情我來分享一下一些"},{"start":12408.642,"end":12424.457,"text":"我們回來看到公共政策訂定的一些狀況其實我比較擔心的是公共政策的訂定的過程裡面我們要很清楚的意圖我們議題設定確立問題法制化實施檢討調整到最後如果它不適合需要終止這是一個過程"},{"start":12425.618,"end":12448.603,"text":"那我們其實目前已經從意圖議題設定要進入到接近法治化的狀態但一旦進入到這個狀態我覺得很多東西必須要去釐清第一個我們要保護的這個公共政策要的範圍實施範圍到底是什麼我要保護的對象到底是誰當我們在說我們要保護的對象是外送的從業人員的時候從業人員有很多不同的樣態我們要保護的是哪一種樣態再來呢這個"},{"start":12451.684,"end":12471.912,"text":"我們在做所有的公共政策制定和討論的過程裡面我們所引用的證據我們所引用的這些資訊到底是如何剛剛主席其實也有提到也有不同的與會者提到說你們平台講一個小時賺270塊甚至290塊到底是怎麼一回事請容我在這邊做一個很簡單的解釋那就是UberEats發出的報酬報告"},{"start":12473.012,"end":12499.353,"text":"那為什麼我們會要做這個報酬報告就是我們發現這個東西一直沒有一個被大家能夠用同一套標準來審視的一個標準我們在早期看到勞動部其實透過這個職業安全衛生研究所去委託做過一些研究其實裡面也有調查就外送員每個月的平均的這個收入大概是兩萬八千多塊左右當然這是有一段時間裡面之前的數字但它反映的就是"},{"start":12500.995,"end":12520.034,"text":"當然勞動部的數字認為是七成兼職沒關係 七成兼職三成專職的底下得到一個這樣的數字那我們對比我們自己內部數字我們覺得這個數字有一點問題所以我們認為需要重新溝通但是當我們要進來重新溝通我們發現一個很重要的問題外送員的報酬到底適不適合用一個月賺多少錢來看"},{"start":12521.335,"end":12535.86,"text":"這是為什麼我們提出了一個不同的檢視方法為什麼它是一個高度自由的工作我可以上線了以後我一張單都不接放了8個小時之後我再下線你不會受到任何的懲罰至少在我們平台是這個樣子那這個8個小時你可以說它是備請時間嗎"},{"start":12537.781,"end":12565.461,"text":"我觉得这是一个第一个实际现状的问题那么再来如果我要讨论到我也回应一下刚刚那个主席特别提到就几个这个不同国家的立法的状态这我等一下再去分享但是我其实要提的就是说关于这些数字它的背后的定义它是怎么被做出来它是依照这个民意调查但是它很难做到真正的抽样这一个有具体的说还有他去调查是我去问你觉得上个月赚多少"},{"start":12566.361,"end":12585.299,"text":"還是你把你的這個報酬這個官網平台給你的報酬的紀錄表拿出來做一個分析目前沒有這樣子的研究最接近的只有平台自己提出但我知道我們提出來的我們即便找了第三方沒有人相信所以我覺得在做一個好的政策分析之前我們需要有這些東西這是第一對不起我知道時間到但是"},{"start":12587.641,"end":12608.037,"text":"我非常快這樣這是第一個其實這樣子的資訊還有非常多如果在我現在的法規的條文裡面我舉個例子裡面提到報酬他以外送的每一單的起跳價應該要是基本工資時薪的三分之一他的假設是平均一個小時接三單但是我如果從另外一個角度來看"},{"start":12608.737,"end":12637.256,"text":"他表示其實如果這趟你實際上只跑10分鐘那三分之一的意思是20分鐘你其實拿到一個這樣子的報酬所以在我們討論一個底線的保護的時候這個線到底應該劃在哪裡這個需要充分的討論好 那接下來我回應一下剛剛提到的幾個東西不好意思 容許我多一點時間主席希望我能夠分享紐約的做法紐約的做法有它好跟不好的地方好的地方是它其實參考了一個很重要的報酬計算的基準"},{"start":12637.876,"end":12655.015,"text":"他把所謂的外送期間也是從接單到完成之後這個時間作為他報酬的計算基準但是他也的確如剛剛主席講他考量入了所謂的這個備請時間叫On Call Time但是這個東西呢他也做了這個所謂的這個預防措施為什麼"},{"start":12655.595,"end":12683.37,"text":"因為他要讓平台有自己自我競爭自由調控的空間所以他在他的制度設計上面給予平台一定程度的權利去決定你不能讓不能夠讓外送員無止境的增加這個On call time因為我剛如果剛講的他上線之後一單都不接那我們到底要不要把它算進去備請時間所以他也把這個東西放進去他的考量那還有兩個不同的基準我覺得那個太細我今天可能就不講那我最後其實要跟大家分享的東西就是這個"},{"start":12685.691,"end":12710.044,"text":"所有的公共政策規定裡面都會有意圖外的後續效應我覺得這個是我們需要很小心的去檢視這會是台灣第一個針對這個所謂的新型態的非典型勞動的立法他不只是會對外送員的權益還有其他商家消費者的權益產生連帶的影響他有可能產生意圖外的影響是當如果我今天依照剛剛不同的版本我要給予外送員的薪酬到"},{"start":12710.724,"end":12736.349,"text":"基本工資的1.5倍然後我要把背景時間考慮進去的同時他又保有高度的彈性自由那會產生什麼樣對於現在總體的勞動市場的這個過分的犀利我覺得這個是連帶可能的效應需要去考慮的然後這個對不起我知道我這樣太多時間有機會我可以之後再回你但我希望重新提的是一個倉促忽略產業的立法會釋放一個法規環境不穩定和不可預期的訊息"},{"start":12738.809,"end":12762.287,"text":"尤其是如果立法的過程裡面沒有充分參考各方的訊息的時候會讓所有國際上或是本土的業者對於未來投入台灣的投資會產生很大的疑慮那這是我最後的結論 謝謝大家好 謝謝馬主席我覺得第一件事情就是等一下還有第二輪我覺得如果你也有一些相關細節要發言的話我歡迎你在第二輪的時候可以再講一次"},{"start":12763.087,"end":12783.539,"text":"另外一個就是有關於你剛剛提到的這個數據我也想要請教一下你的270是有效的送單的時間裡面算出來的對吧所以沒有含備請時間我們先了解一下這件事情第三件事情是你剛剛說整個體系裡面就只有一方付錢"},{"start":12784.71,"end":12806.285,"text":"你就在講消費者嘛對不對主要是你講消費者可是其實也不只嘛對不對不只消費者之外還有一個部分就是有關於平台的利潤你怎麼樣去有效的分配出來讓大家比較幸福喔因為我想要表達的事情是其實平台跟不管是店家或者是我們外送員應該是一個夥伴關係"},{"start":12807.686,"end":12828.771,"text":"他們幫助了這個產業的發展那他發展的同時你也必須給他應有的保障或者報酬所以我認為說這不應該是一個零和關係它是一個夥伴關係你們必須去聽到夥伴的聲音不然其實對你們產業發展也不見得好所以這是我以上3點的回應那接下來我們請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":12836.429,"end":12856.4,"text":"謝謝主席各位來自外送產業的代表我們外送員的夥伴各位官員以及關心勞動議題的朋友們大家早安今天這場公聽會我們討論的不只是一個新興的產業而是一個正在改變社會結構的現象這我想外送平台已經不再只是單純便利生活的一個工具而是一個有超過15萬從業人口的龐大的產業鏈"},{"start":12860.322,"end":12878.012,"text":"其中很高的比例其實是所謂的全職的從業人員那他其實實實在在的支撐城市的運轉也支撐了這個當代很多這個國民朋友的生活品質但我們跟這個產業相關的一個制度卻依然停在他剛起步的時代實在是速度太慢了一點"},{"start":12878.772,"end":12902.775,"text":"所以我們今天就表達一下我們的看法第一我們要談一下外送員的現況現行制度的落差是外送員在街頭奔波風吹雨打風險很高但發生車禍 職災或者是有停權糾紛等等往往沒有足夠的工會代表沒有足夠的申訴管道也沒有保險可以撐住這些人很多人認為外送員是自由工作者但事實上實務上來講這個跟平台的"},{"start":12904.036,"end":12928.106,"text":"這個合作那是在所當然平台當然能夠設定制度決定是否接單收入高低等等那這樣的關係有自由但是也有辛苦的地方我們自己在選區啊也接了很多外送員好朋友的陳情意見裡面比如說平台如果更新演算法但是外送員不見得知道演算法的邏輯那麼這個影響了接單的量也就影響了收入或者是說發生了一些糾紛"},{"start":12928.947,"end":12932.761,"text":"出現了被停權的一個狀況當然就只能記性申訴但是這個時間"},{"start":12934.42,"end":12959.779,"text":"在回復之前他等於是沒有工作的一個狀態這些其實都是來自於基層的心聲也希望這個透過法治化因為制度真空而造成的各式各樣的問題跟缺漏我們希望能夠有所處理那第二我們談一下立法的必要性有現在三個黨團很多的委員甚至我剛剛稍早提醒我們勞動部現在都會有院版有外送平台的管理及外送人權益保障等等草案這我想不是為了要管"},{"start":12960.699,"end":12979.486,"text":"為管而管而是要讓每一個從業人員都更有保障那麼縱覽各個委員的版本各個黨團的版本大概有三個蠻重要的議題值得大家對焦第一個當然是比較深水區的議題就是所謂的要不要薪資保障因為既然他已經形成了一個獨立的一個產業而且大部分是全職工作者"},{"start":12980.106,"end":12997.338,"text":"那他到底勞工是承攬這總要討論的那麼在這個薪資的過程中有沒有合理的運價跟所謂的收入的保障的制度的討論去避免這個押價或者是演算法操作等等的狀況這個值得大家共同討論對焦第二是保險制度的建立"},{"start":12999.139,"end":13014.134,"text":"這個我想外送員風吹日曬他其實是一個蠻高風險的產業有車禍各式各樣職災的高風險那麼有沒有強制投保職災險第三人責任險等等不要讓每一次的送單變成冒險的第二第三是有關於程序正義這有關於出現糾紛客訴等等狀況"},{"start":13016.076,"end":13036.213,"text":"招致外送員被停權的時候有沒有明確的理由有沒有空開透明的這樣一個申訴的機制不能讓平台單方面的決定外送員的生計而是要求平台外送員跟政府我們要共同承擔社會責任第三我們談對平台跟政府的期待我們這裡要呼籲兩個對象第一我們要跟我們所有外送平台業者還要喊喊話"},{"start":13037.073,"end":13057.87,"text":"各位的成功是建立在外送員朋友的辛苦勞動的成果之上這個業務我們當然都希望可以大展宏圖可以服務更多的人但展現非凡成就之餘要記得我們外送員夥伴這個基層在風中雨中趕單跑單的結果我想要建立一個透明的制度讓外送員更加的安全讓他們更有尊嚴"},{"start":13058.79,"end":13081.241,"text":"並不會削弱企業的競爭力反而會讓外送平台的品牌更值得信任第二 我們要針對政府主管機關來喊話我們勞動部 交通部 經濟部衛福部 金管會這是試射非常非常多的單位但一旦公共政策試射很多單位的時候大家就擔心互踢皮球而進度緩慢我們不希望再看到互相推諉這是一個跨部會的勞動議題"},{"start":13082.321,"end":13104.196,"text":"我們應該共同合作從派單制度、交通安全、保險給付等等一起建立完整的管理體系我們要讓制度跟上時代外送的產業它不會只是一個短暫的現象它是數位派遣經濟的開端今天我們要替外送員、外送平台來立法就是要替未來所有的工作者共同立法不管是基安的設計師、電商物流人員AI的工作者"},{"start":13105.097,"end":13120.456,"text":"還有等等未來也都會在這個數位時代面對類似的問題我們如何讓平台跟勞動者取得一個平衡如何讓制度更加完善我想這是今天公聽會的重要目的我們讓新型態的勞動者也有新的保護網"},{"start":13121.337,"end":13146.918,"text":"我相信一個公平的社會我們不能只靠同情要靠的是制度外送員也不需要被施捨他們需要被尊重他們需要被保障同樣平台業者也需要一個合理而且穩定的基準既保障運作也擔負社會責任而政府與立法者的責任就是讓這些保障成為現實讓我們一起往前走不要只是紙上條文我們要特別感謝廖偉強委員積極排案也感謝各個黨團都積極響應期待這個15萬家庭的產業鏈能夠在外送員保障專法"},{"start":13151.001,"end":13177.227,"text":"立法之後有一個更安全更穩定的環境謝謝大家好我在這邊提示一下因為我有說我這裡有第二輪的發言所以請大家就是如果剛剛覺得發言不夠的可以再過來發言好那因為我也希望充分討論所以不要說到時候說沒有充分討論我們就不好進行了那再來就是請蘇柏豪理事發言"},{"start":13192.901,"end":13195.247,"text":"我用我用用這個好了"},{"start":13201.873,"end":13224.601,"text":"各位委員各位工會的夥伴各位媒體朋友各位政府官員大家好那我是台中市外送平台服務產業工會理事兼發言人那其實外送平台到現在其實已經有13年了那整個狀況其實也是進合蠻長久的那也發展到了整個規模到非常龐大的狀況"},{"start":13226.101,"end":13254.98,"text":"2024年已经明确超过1500亿的营业额那今年可能会上开1800亿都有可能对那外送产业的四个节点它其实就是外送平台外送员餐厅以及消费者四个节点六条关系线完整的架构那我们目前看起来其实最需要保障也最匮乏的其实是平台跟外送员这一块所以我们可能由这个部分先来进行按到了"},{"start":13258.442,"end":13267.948,"text":"其實剛剛平台業者講說沒有充分討論這是不是事實我必須很強烈的講這個不是事實過去的四年來"},{"start":13270.197,"end":13292.564,"text":"專法的公聽會至少有四場今天不是第一場公會過去兩三年來至少跟平台開了十次以上的會議這是有公開的會議喔沒有公開的會議超過二十場以上都有那包括地方政府包括各機關包括各政府單位所有的會議加起來破百場"},{"start":13294.656,"end":13318.812,"text":"破百長的討論你要跟我說這個沒有充分討論這怎麼可能大家等你們等了多久每一次的會議都有討論到幾乎都會觸及到最低報酬的保障以及最低保險的保障平台永遠不願意做任何的承諾這是目前的現況"},{"start":13320.933,"end":13340.669,"text":"我們專法版本已經提出到現在已經有四年了請問資方版在哪裡我就問一句話不要說有沒有委員幫你們提資方版在哪裡沒有啊沒有要做承諾啊讓我們的法律不保障放棄權益的人啊"},{"start":13343.799,"end":13370.095,"text":"今天是平台放棄了他自己表達自己的權益並不是外送員去壓榨平台我們只是要一個很基本的東西甚至勞動部以及工會帶我們工會幹部一起去拜訪亞太區的總監的時候亞太區的總監說你們法律訂出來我就遵守你們法律不訂我管你喔"},{"start":13371.656,"end":13387.179,"text":"人家的平台業者都講得這麼白了這也是因為什麼政府機關總算願意制定專法的主要原因因為平台嗆明了就是你沒有法律我不做這是很明確的"},{"start":13388.932,"end":13403.953,"text":"其實外送專法的權益保障重點我們剛剛有討論到幾個工資保障、三一保險保障我們一個一個來講工作期間的定義我覺得很明確的需要從上限期間到下限為止"},{"start":13405.374,"end":13421.332,"text":"為什麼呢 因為其實有些平台你覺得他是背勤時間 他其實不是背勤時間譬如說有些平台他可以拉10公里 20公里遠的送單距離請問你空車回來不能算嗎 不算嗎"},{"start":13423.047,"end":13438.16,"text":"不算工時嘛 你一趟去回來就不算錢就我覺得這樣不合理吧那我們工會長期以來主張都是從上限期間到下限期間為止那目前民進黨版以及行政院還沒未公開的規劃版"},{"start":13440.082,"end":13462.922,"text":"都沒有規範到從上限時間到下限時間為止都還是以平台的主張送單時間那我覺得這個需要去改善因為這定義失準當將影響到工資的保障以及第三責任險的保險範圍甚至遇到車禍損害的連帶賠償的一些責任範圍都會有影響到"},{"start":13464.483,"end":13489.98,"text":"那最低工资的保障其实工会要的不多啦就是基本时薪的三分之一那这个是很基本的我们为什么会这样定是因为偏乡的外送员真的跑不到啦我们不是说一定说要多少钱或怎么样都会去的外送员也许可以跑到基本时薪可是偏乡外送员真的很多都跑不到"},{"start":13490.64,"end":13519.609,"text":"那我們難道只保障都會不保障偏鄉嗎不可能吧對啊那兩大平台這幾年的砍薪狀況其實蠻明顯的啦基本工資年年調漲外送基本費年年降低到最誇張的2025年45塊錢可以疊到三單就是Uber Eats的平台平均一單15塊錢請問這合理嗎沒有人可以跟我說這個金額是合理的吧"},{"start":13521.363,"end":13547.193,"text":"那直載保險的話我們希望說直載保險因為金額真的不高一天1.7到3塊錢而已那我們也希望平台幫忙負擔這筆錢然後而且要求外送員有投保才能上線因為我們遇到很多外送員都是發現出了事故才發現他忘了按iPhone他沒有去投保那我覺得這樣很可惜因為保障確實是蠻多的"},{"start":13548.953,"end":13570.353,"text":"那商业保险的话第三责任险目前是以送单期间可是我觉得应该至少是上限到下限期间为准那要增加财神的保障那给我一点多一点时间安全驾驶训练其实我们111年以机车交通部的机车外送安全指引其实有讨论过其实可以参照就可以了"},{"start":13571.594,"end":13599.274,"text":"那其實公會版的草案裡面有一個很重要的概念就是推定僱傭制為什麼要有推定僱傭制因為外送員就是處於沒事成懶制有事僱傭制一般你要發生事情外送員才會去主張你是僱傭制那在這個主張的過程中在法院通常都會要求外送員他的那個舉證比例責任比較大因為他有可能被視為是成懶"},{"start":13600.834,"end":13618.449,"text":"那如果说推定雇佣的话他就不是做个案认定了他就是变成说你这平台没有提出举证之前你全部都视为雇佣制举证责任是完整的逆转完整的逆转到平台身上这个对外送人才是最大的保障"},{"start":13619.17,"end":13645.729,"text":"当然我们不是说推定雇佣制它就一定是雇佣制平台还是可以提出挑战只是说这个举证责任你可以大幅的从外送员身上降低尽量转移到平台上去这样对外送员来讲才是最大的保障其实这样子也有类似通盘认定的效果它虽然名义上还是个案认定可是因为它已经推定雇佣了嘛"},{"start":13646.189,"end":13656.54,"text":"推定雇佣之後平台還是可以做個案確認就是逆向的去做個案認定其實它還是個案認定的一種並不違反目前的憲法解釋的條文這樣"},{"start":13658.331,"end":13683.972,"text":"對 那最後是罰則罰則我覺得如果沒有威嚇性其實對平台來講是完全沒有我們完全沒有辦法要求的那引入一案一法連續法的機制那一個外送員即視為一個個案即可連續開罰這樣才能對外送平台有很顯著的威嚇力或是比照國外某些國家以總營業額的比例作為裁罰標準"},{"start":13687.435,"end":13702.09,"text":"这一罚下去就是以亿来计算的那可能对外送平台而言他才会有痛感而且还要纳入说勒令停业以及废纸许可这些重大的财阀手段"},{"start":13702.97,"end":13719.836,"text":"我們國家要有刀啦不然的話這些外送平台永遠都是處於即便法規定出來他還是照樣給你違法因為你沒有刀去制衡他那謝謝那今天我第一輪發言到現在到現在為止謝謝謝謝感謝蘇柏豪理事發言接下來請李彥秀委員發言"},{"start":13738.699,"end":13760.026,"text":"謝謝召委 這個專法我們等了非常非常久事實上在2016到2020我在第一次擔任立委期間我就跟許部長溝通了很久這個法案到底說應該由勞動部提出自己的版本出來"},{"start":13760.953,"end":13777.191,"text":"我更認為會更周延那私底下無論是在立法院的公聽會或者是私底下各黨團之間跟所有的外送員溝通其實我知道我們私底下溝通了不下數十次以上"},{"start":13777.992,"end":13796.423,"text":"但是我非常高興在這一屆當中一開始國民黨黨團在第一時間就把專法列為優先法案那在大罷免之後我們立即由召委趕快來安排但我們也樂見在這一次當中民進黨黨團也積極提出版本"},{"start":13797.043,"end":13812.257,"text":"那也希望透過不斷的公聽會的檢討讓接下來的修法可以更完整這個是最主要的目的但是我要強調是這個專法我們這個會期國民黨我們積極要把這個案子完成三讀"},{"start":13813.499,"end":13829.395,"text":"那我们也希望行政单位也好各党派我们可以提出版本坐下来好好讨论把外送员的权益刚刚也讲得很清楚政府要有法才有机会真正照顾到外送员的权益你没有这把刀"},{"start":13830.256,"end":13847.948,"text":"你沒有一個法律的位階基礎外送員在溝通過程當中永遠是弱勢好 接下來我要強調說隨著數位經濟的發展我們的形態消費的形態不斷地模式不斷地在產生新的變化那都在科技跟法律間不斷地拉扯"},{"start":13848.468,"end":13876.648,"text":"所以外送专法不仅是我们劳动的相关的议题更是在检验我们台湾在数位经济时代是不是能够兼顾创新跟公平那非典型的就业的崛起我们劳动市场结构其实不断的在改变我们目前在台湾非典的就业人数达到80万人占整体就业的人口数达到7%但其中想转为"},{"start":13877.308,"end":13904.338,"text":"全職的工作者僅只有14.82%也就是說將近85%的人都還是希望留在這個非典型的就業的形態裡頭那裡頭更有將近15歲到24歲年輕的族群當中更有高達20%留在這樣的一個非典型的就業工作當中比鄰近日本跟韓國的比例就非常高出許多"},{"start":13904.878,"end":13927.316,"text":"所以這樣子的工作型態無論是它的彈性化跟零碎化的工作型態未來有可能在台灣持續的增加所以這也就代表著我們立法的重要性憑良心講我的辦公室也好或者我平常在我選區走動的時候常常碰到外送員他都跟我講說他們求助無門"},{"start":13927.816,"end":13940.487,"text":"或者碰到勞資糾紛的時候碰到薪資單莫名其妙被砍的時候但是在跟勞工局溝通的過程當中他們就是弱勢的一群他們就是弱勢的一群"},{"start":13941.894,"end":13962.016,"text":"有勾没有通或者是我们没有足够的法源依据去足够去支撑他们所以外送平台凭着高度的自主弹性的时间的特性成为非典型的工作者的首选所以外送人员在台湾目前有15万人已经是一个不容忽视正在成型的数位劳动阶层"},{"start":13962.657,"end":13991.124,"text":"从过去传统的雇佣关系过去都是重属性高度的重属性但是我们都知道数位的非典型劳工它就是属于低度的重属性这样的一个工作形态过去是透过演算派单评分的讲诚机制来控制我们现在的劳动过程所以一直不断的弱化了我们外送员当碰到劳资纠纷的时候他们的谈判地位其实非常的低"},{"start":13991.624,"end":14017.739,"text":"那地方勞工局也好我們現在法源依據真的是不夠有足夠的法源依據足以去支撐他們所以很多的很多應該要有的一些業者應該負擔平台應該負擔的成本現在變成外部化甚至是外送員在承擔這樣的一個不合理的狀態凸顯出我們立即立法的重要性所以在這邊我再一次強調我們希望"},{"start":14018.399,"end":14044.214,"text":"透過這一次的公聽會我們有機會把各自的版本調整得更好甚至是勞動部主動提出更好的版本出來我們大家坐下來好好溝通這個是凝聚出共識共同解決我們在數位經濟之下我們碰到的難題也解決目前15萬外送員常常碰到勞資糾紛的時候求助無門的窘境謝謝"},{"start":14049.055,"end":14050.54,"text":"謝謝 謝謝李燕秀委員發言接下來請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":14072.115,"end":14097.464,"text":"謝謝趙偉 韋翔前日辦了這個排審今天又快馬加鞭馬上就辦了這個公聽會今天早上我特別出席了這個全國外送產業公會這個會前的這個記者會現場有那個外送員他那個工作的過程裡面受傷今天受著輪椅來的還有碰到爭議的店家的代表今天也都趕來了"},{"start":14098.932,"end":14111.166,"text":"這個法非常重要而且非常的急非常的急所以台灣民眾黨不只提出了酸法我們鄭重的呼籲要盡快完成三讀"},{"start":14112.665,"end":14135.27,"text":"所以我要第一一開始一開始明確的表達台灣民眾黨希望在這個會期就完成專法的三讀第二個我們要鄭重呼籲今天陽光普照啊可是上天空上還有一朵烏雲遮住了就是周鴻泰卓院長他在答詢的時候啊他說等到明年的一月份才要提出這個"},{"start":14137.446,"end":14150.919,"text":"整套的這個指引一過分回去就過了不能再拖了啦那個屋簷不能把陽光遮住既然是對的事情急迫的事情專法這個立法請趕快過我也請勞動部部長 洪部長你現在現場請轉達"},{"start":14156.38,"end":14179.06,"text":"老總部趕快提專法行政驗版趕快提出來這個事情不能再等因為本來我們本來應該是亞洲第一個可以成立專法的我們現在變新加坡超車了新加坡已經完成立法了全世界德國、西班牙、澳洲、法國都有了新加坡也都有了對的事情趕快做"},{"start":14180.871,"end":14199.152,"text":"已經13年了外送平台進來之後我們外送人員辛辛苦苦還有店家辛辛苦苦的最近這13年我們一直在呼籲趕快訂專法台灣最早最早完成這個自治條例的是在2019年"},{"start":14201.514,"end":14224.793,"text":"柯文哲擔任台北市市長的時候那時候台北市政府就制定了全台第一個台北市外送平台業者管理自治條例後來陸陸續續六都都已經成立了都已經設置了 已經制定了這個自治條例可是中央拖延太久了特別是民進黨以前一黨獨大我現在呼籲民進黨要趕快破王"},{"start":14225.868,"end":14251.145,"text":"然後民眾黨在20在112年的4月28號就提出了外送平台的管理暨從業人員潛力保障的這個法案上個會期後來借領沒辦法過我們在今年的去年113年的7月3號又提出更新版的這個專法去年我跟韋翔坐在同樣位置"},{"start":14252.096,"end":14277.367,"text":"我召开了召开了专法制定还有避免两大外送平台合并造成垄断的公听会那天我也邀请了非常多的专家协责那天好多专家协责那天也都在这边那天我们做成两个非常重要的一个结议第一个我们认为Uber Eats加上胡扁打肉真的合并那个垄断对整个"},{"start":14279.085,"end":14304.111,"text":"這個平台 這個兩大平台如果真的造成壟斷的話對店家 對外送人員 對消費者都是有很大的衝擊的所以那天我們做成這個決議之後我在經濟委員會提出好幾次的這個質詢另外更重要的決議是什麼就是儘速要完成專法了所以時間也很有限我今天把台灣民眾黨的專法跟大家報告一下"},{"start":14305.39,"end":14333.806,"text":"第一個我們會擴大勞動保險的這個保障剛剛理事長在講啊有啊你們現在送完這個護編黨送出去了從業人員送完之後回程之後出現狀況怎麼辦現在都不納入嘛對不對所以台灣民眾黨的版本裡面明文規定外送平台要幫我們的外送員投保人身的這個保險跟財產這個保險而且外送平台的業者"},{"start":14335.7,"end":14350.514,"text":"如果在這個外送服務時間裡面他應該要能夠維持他保險企業的這個效率這個非常重要你看同樣 你說公車公車出去好了公車司機你怎麼可能送他出勤的那個過程裡面不算只有上線的那個時間"},{"start":14352.015,"end":14378.539,"text":"如果從勞動條件來講這方面應該要去補強第二個我們要擴大對外送平台還有合作的這個商家還有外送員的企業的這個保障我們要求這個勞動部要這邊請特別看看要明文規定啊組織機關要制定一個企業的範本跟定型化的企業裡面來納管另外要好好去保障我們外送平台"},{"start":14378.979,"end":14400.528,"text":"跟合作的所有这个店家还有外送也互相之间它一定要有一个合理的这个前线跟义务第三个要怎么来保障我们消费者潜力我们要求外送平台应该在客户端要明确的你要把价格要标示清楚服务的这个费用还有印费 退费甚至整个退费的那个机制"},{"start":14401.368,"end":14427.514,"text":"整個都是要清楚 保障我們消費者這個權利而且要明定 要制定建立一個消費 如果產生爭議的時候它要有一個申訴的爭議我們今天只是先提了三大重點出來我們希望在這個會期可以盡快通過當然今天我們聽了非常多產業界產官協的很多學者專家我剛剛聽了很多都已經提到更重要的一些點出來我們會把它納入 非常期待我拜託一下黃部長"},{"start":14428.194,"end":14453.096,"text":"回去跟院長講把屋簷撥開趕快讓陽光照進來完這個會期就完成我們的專訪的這個制定好謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員發言那我也再提醒一下這邊第二輪發言登記這個如果有上一輪覺得發言不足夠沒有補充到的可以趕快來登記第二輪因為我們第一輪快要結束發言了那接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":14456.352,"end":14459.75,"text":"楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":14470.049,"end":14488.214,"text":"好 謝謝主席 再次感謝廖偉祥召委那麼積極的在我們未完委員會來排審而且也安排今天的公聽會那我之前也做了提案說明我在這一屆第二個會期就提出這個專法"},{"start":14490.154,"end":14515.879,"text":"也非常高興到現在為止包含民進黨團也願意提出版本然後我們的行政院勞動部也終於不再踢皮球願意擔任主管機關所以我們現在看起來這個專法它的修正及推動露出了曙光不過我想也要跟大家報告最近的一個狀況"},{"start":14517.199,"end":14538.564,"text":"也就是說就是因為現在立法院裡面包含跨黨派都提出了相關的法案以及我們行政院終於有一個比較善意的回應可是最近在網路上開始有一些帶風向我覺得這個可能是要值得我們注意比如說我今天就看到一個粉專"},{"start":14539.744,"end":14546.707,"text":"那大大的這個標題說外送專法大改革運費恐65元起跳5.7萬網友震撼表態那而且呢事實上在網路上已經開始有這樣的一個帶風向的民調"},{"start":14559.171,"end":14578.425,"text":"他的民調的詢問的方式詢問的方式他說你認為哪一種方式保重帳外送員的基本報酬更為恰當那麼其實呢我覺得大部分的消費者都願意和我們一樣來保重帳外送員的基本報酬"},{"start":14579.105,"end":14587.867,"text":"的報酬保障但是比如說他就會有一個選項問一下說沒見但是擔心成本轉嫁給消費者結果那個的他的比例是最高的因為當你問消費者的時候他一定最擔心的就是成本的轉嫁"},{"start":14598.57,"end":14626.809,"text":"那另外呢他这个带风向他的问题是这样子外送专法草案要求外送报酬每一单至少三分之一基本工资约65元运费有可能从65元起跳你是否愿意使用然后呢这个选项里面呢很多还是说会那但是呢他的选项不会会选择自取或外出用餐就是最高的好"},{"start":14627.679,"end":14645.555,"text":"我要講的就是說這跟我們當時大家一起在奮戰也就是兩大外送平台合併是一樣的因為外送平台大家都知道他們的資源很多而且他們有來自國外雄厚的資本"},{"start":14647.216,"end":14674.549,"text":"那么也有政府跟社会游说的能力所以今天我们这样的一个专访事实上在推动的过程里面我们现在已经眼看了当我们觉得有很乐观或有曙光的时候就有来自这样子的一个事实上的阻力所以我在这边我也要特别讲就是说我一直希望说我们这个平台我们这个专访"},{"start":14675.109,"end":14692.25,"text":"它应该是包含平台赢我们外送员赢我们消费者也要赢但是如果少了消费者的支持它当然就会增加整个的法案推动的一个阻力所以我必须要说第一个"},{"start":14692.751,"end":14710.193,"text":"我譴責這種用民調帶風向試圖去阻礙我們來推動這個法案這法案其實已經我們已經爭取了非常非常久那麼事實上在地方政府台北市台南市事實上都已經有自治條例"},{"start":14711.474,"end":14720.421,"text":"就是說地方政府先行上路中央已經晚了很多了所以也變成地方政府上路的時候最後呢政府還有敗訴的狀況好那我們要怎麼樣能夠讓大家摸取共贏而且能夠讓我們能夠順利推動能夠正式的上岸這個就非常重要的"},{"start":14732.29,"end":14736.331,"text":"所以我覺得除了我們要修法我們現在有很多版本我們都可以擇其最優的另外我們也要把接單費的標準法制化包含標準計算方式發放日期等等也可以請我們的同業工會來做一個共同的擬定而且跟消費者對話"},{"start":14757.996,"end":14762.557,"text":"千萬不要有這種說至少運費65元起跳嚇唬消費者搞不好消費者就開始打電話到我們委員辦公室說不能夠犧牲消費者的權益所以我覺得這一些我們都應該在我們這次修法裡面我們要納入考量而且其實我過去在台北市議會的時候當台北市議員其實當時我有試圖去限制抽成的成數"},{"start":14786.261,"end":14789.785,"text":"比照比如說美國波士頓他們這裡是地方政府就是他有一個抽成上限你不可能因為在我們幾方在對談的時候外送員是最弱勢的然後外送平台你要跟外送平台真的是你跟他沒有什麼談判的籌碼"},{"start":14808.252,"end":14818.144,"text":"這個費率怎麼調整消費者也沒辦法跟他對話他想要調就要調以前就曾經發生過這樣的事情他突然把整個的運費調高那時候造成我們台北市1999被打爆"},{"start":14822.95,"end":14830.215,"text":"被打爆然後他們依然如故所以我覺得我們在這個現在勞動部願意負起責任來非常的我們非常肯定但是我們要如何的讓這個法案在我們現在的過程裡面讓它成功的上岸我們需要更多的社會對話那我們不要忘記的"},{"start":14845.865,"end":14869.626,"text":"如同当时我们在反对两大平台的合并的状况之下其实大家也做了很多的努力那么同样的在这个法案里面我们会继续站在我们就一本初衷继续的推动但是呢还是要见招拆招而且把这些不合理的这种带风向的民调我们必须要揭发"},{"start":14870.647,"end":14878.325,"text":"用這樣的一個帶風向民調試圖去影響試圖阻礙這是我們所不樂見的以上跟大家報告 謝謝"},{"start":14880.407,"end":14909.827,"text":"感謝謝謝王宏威委員發言他剛剛真的提到一個很重要的關鍵是今天其他人沒有講到就是接下來這個立法過程的阻礙有可能被帶風向變成一個很大的阻礙那所以本席也要在這裡特別講然後包含剛剛王宏威委員有提到其實現在外送員的權益這個運費包含著付他運費的當然包含的消費者包含著店家當然包含著平台我覺得這個應該是要講清楚不是說一定"},{"start":14910.487,"end":14924.458,"text":"我們要避免說到時候用所謂的轉嫁消費者這個理由來阻礙立法謝謝謝謝王宏輝委員那現在進行第二輪的發言請登記第一位的郭欣怡發言時間4分鐘"},{"start":14934.8,"end":14948.748,"text":"首先感謝張偉就讓我們有第二次的機會可以再來做一些的說明這樣子那其實在剛剛的討論之中呢我覺得就是有很多的議題就是我們可以在這邊可以多一點的分享就是剛剛有提到一個是停權的議題"},{"start":14950.069,"end":14965.889,"text":"那在這個停權議題上呢其實過去就像剛剛這個蘇發言人說的我們過去其實在勞動部有非常多的討論那為什麼最終大家認為沒有結果呢因為其實在平台的停權上面我負責任的說我們是都有所依據的"},{"start":14966.77,"end":14977.24,"text":"那停權分成兩種一種是違法行為違法行為我們會立刻停權因為可能涉及一些性騷擾或是一些強迫行為或是涉及一些形式的涉及這個他必須立刻的終止合作因為外送夥伴他們工作的區域是會進到家戶裡面去的會進到家戶的這個領域去的"},{"start":14988.59,"end":15009.585,"text":"所以涉及到違法的部分我們強烈的就目前的版本是說必須30天給他申訴對不起 這個真的是在這個就是一個外送安全的這個保障之下我覺得我們真的要列入考量那第二點就是夥伴常常講的就是一封信就停權其實這也不是事實因為在場很多的我相信在場很多的消費者"},{"start":15010.505,"end":15037.803,"text":"那消费者呢如果您遇到一些服务品质可能比较不是那么优良或是说可能有一些言语上的冲突的伙伴的话那您可能不敢当下发作因为他可能会进到您的家户里那就会向平台来申诉那向平台申诉的话呢我这边来分享一个数据以我们就是自己就是平台来讲的话其实每个月每一名外送伙伴他被申诉的比例是0.06次"},{"start":15039.884,"end":15055.346,"text":"我們用大數據平均就是我們用每單去平均一位外送夥伴每月被申訴的次數是0.06次那如果說有夥伴他可能在短時間內大量的被客訴的話那我們就一個常理來講"},{"start":15056.267,"end":15072.35,"text":"它是否為一個比較不是那麼正常的情形或許它的服務品質上面確實不是那麼的適當在這個狀況下平台就會激發通知性通知就是您的服務品質不佳像剛剛講的那樣"},{"start":15073.231,"end":15102.831,"text":"可是剛剛那個協會所提的那個我剛剛一直看不出它是不是同一天的信件如果是那我們到現在我們可能沒有做好就是信件的一個寄送的一個時間管控但我可以確定的是外送平台不是寄一次信就停權我們會寄發三次信這個我們在之前的整個跟勞動部還有協會討論裡面都有在說明過這樣子好那這個是目前就是平台上的一個就是停權跟那個終止合作的做法這樣子"},{"start":15103.411,"end":15120.062,"text":"那另外就是說剛剛其實也提到了很多就是對於那個剛剛那個我們的有業就是那個UberEats就是美國商會的代表這邊有提到了那個紐約的這個報告那我這邊也分享一下新加坡的報告因為剛剛一直有提到"},{"start":15120.502,"end":15136.497,"text":"其實新加坡確實是立法了新加坡的立法它的主軸是在於第一個它確立我們的外送工作是自營作業者它首先核先就續名了它確立是自營工作者第二個是它有職災的保障"},{"start":15137.017,"end":15160.934,"text":"他就外送夥伴的職災保障是工作中就是送單期間就是從接單起到送單完成他有職災的保障有公家的職災保障就類似我們的職災險這樣另外有退休公積金的提撥退休公積金的提撥它是30歲以下的外送夥伴由平台跟夥伴共同支應退休公積金的費用保費"},{"start":15161.835,"end":15183.32,"text":"那如果是30歲以上的夥伴呢是自願加入由政府來過度補貼就政府補貼這個就是這個加入這個退休公積金的制度的費用那第三點就是呢他有了這兩項保障後他沒有報酬的最低的這個金額的保障他們是自有市場的機制這個是新加坡的現況"},{"start":15184.48,"end":15209.194,"text":"那麼其實我也想要分享一下就是剛剛一直提到就是合併期間這讓我想到有一個資料或許大院可以去調來看看因為我們是看不到的在這個合併的期間其實公品會做了一個就是外送市場的這樣子的一個產業調查那其中其實有蠻多珍貴的數據但因為在最後的那個合併的文件出來它是被隱藏的但我不曉得大院能不能去查到"},{"start":15209.574,"end":15229.068,"text":"那其中就有提到說就是每當就是外送平台在成本外溢然後就是帳價的一個百分多少錢之後那可能會去削減的這個市場的規模這個其實在公平會有做了一個非常完整而且是基於在當時合併的情況之下有做一個非常完整的這個經濟的報告我覺得這個可能會比平台"},{"start":15232.35,"end":15242.537,"text":"自說自話的這個效益會來得更好那也懇請就是這個報告呢我們可以拿出來共同的參考那作為我們這個立法就是一個參考的要件以上謝謝各位謝謝謝謝郭欣怡理事的發言接下來請這個馬培智主席發言"},{"start":15255.1,"end":15275.675,"text":"好 謝謝第二輪發言我把一些剛剛想要講沒有講的東西講完謝謝還有包含可能回應一下剛剛有一些提出來針對這個平台或者是這個業者提出來的一些疑問我剛剛就是大概簡略的介紹一下紐約有這個引入了這個送單時間和被請時間的概念然後也提供了一些"},{"start":15276.315,"end":15297.622,"text":"計算的保障並且給予平台做一個他要選擇去利用外送員實際的送單時間作為一個基準還是要把他的等待的時間納入去他有一個這樣的統計但事實上他的確是如主席剛講的可能大家在西雅圖或者是一些歐洲在做歐洲可能比較多做的是"},{"start":15298.422,"end":15320.764,"text":"雇佣推定或者是直接認定是雇佣關係的這樣的立法它產生的效應可能是外送平台沒有辦法把這個工作型態變成是大量的兼職它盡可能的變成是專職之後會讓很多大量的外送員兼職的沒有辦法從事這是它的負面衝擊但是也許是剛好對應到這些社會它想要解決的問題所以我覺得這是回來到這個公共政策我們要解決面臨是什麼問題的狀態"},{"start":15322.325,"end":15342.385,"text":"而在纽约的状况看起来是没有产生比较大的冲击但其实它还是有只是不像在西雅图这么严重纽约遇到的状况是因为平台为了要减少它给这个几副所谓的他们的英文用的那个 term 叫 encore但因为它的定义很宽松就是你只要开了手机之后到关了手机"},{"start":15343.165,"end":15359.714,"text":"減掉你實際有送單的這個時間通通都要加入這個on call的時間那我像剛剛講這個東西它是在平台的大部分的平台的規則裡面是外交影響有絕對的自由但這個新的政策出來以後產生了連帶效應就是平台當然希望你盡可能的不要on call因為我會付給你的錢再少一點"},{"start":15360.394,"end":15384.45,"text":"所以就讓外送員必須要事先登記他的上線的時間或是當這一個區域的外送員他已經供給足夠的時候他會開始限制外送員不得再上線雖然有一些我現在想要上來賺的錢他反而我沒有辦法進來因為外送平台必須要減少他的成本那這個是他的連帶我剛剛一直在提的一個公共政策的這個預期之外的外溢效應那我覺得他也需要被考量進去"},{"start":15384.99,"end":15404.978,"text":"那剛其實有提到就是說在商家的抽成的部分那我也做一個補充說明因為我們經常看到很多在講說紐約立法只能抽成15%但是如果你看得更仔細進去他的所謂的15%是針對平台媒合一個外送員給這個商家的時候這個抽成15%但這個平台提供的其他的服務"},{"start":15405.618,"end":15431.694,"text":"例如我幫你接到一張單你有沒有利用到平台的交易系統去幫你接單那個15%的媒合指的是你自己接了一張單你沒有人可以送你請平台幫你送但如果今天這張單是平台幫你接到的那這一個轉介的這個lead generation的這個費用那是另外算這個交易成本信用卡的交易我幫你代收金流的服務另外算所以其實這個15%並不是大家想像的是說跟台灣的是完全對標的"},{"start":15432.714,"end":15457.882,"text":"所以我的意思是有很多的資訊其實並不完全的充分或是貼近事實這是為什麼我一直在提的是說需要更多的討論那其實對我來講就是如同我一開始講的剛今天提到很多關於報酬的標準關於停權的東西其實我們都認為絕對平台有改進調整的空間我也認同某一些今天工會提到的很多項目他覺得平台做得不夠好"},{"start":15458.562,"end":15487.763,"text":"那其實這是一個好的一個起始的機會往下討論我們是同意那最後呢剛剛提到一些其實我要再提一個這個預期外報酬效應的補充我非常苦就是希望提醒大家這件事情我們不是沒有規範這真的立法品質和真正開放的公眾討論非常重要我舉個例子台灣過去在這個資本市場的管理上一直有一些比較嚴格的管理一個公司要賺錢你才可以投入這個資本市場做公開的募資這過去的股票上市貴新貴的規定"},{"start":15488.283,"end":15514.066,"text":"是一直到最近這幾年才做開放但你會發現因為過去的規定所以台灣在2000年的這個這個網際網路的這個興起的這段時間台灣到今天沒有長出一個本土的平台因為平台的經濟需要前期的大量投資外送平台是一樣的狀況我們今天立法目的是要保持過去這五年平台在大量投資的期間所造成的一個高額的這個或是相對較好的報酬還是我們今天要立法要保護的是"},{"start":15514.466,"end":15527.786,"text":"每一個外送員拉起跟一般的勞工接近的包場我覺得這是我們需要深思熟慮的謝謝謝謝感謝馬培智主席的發言接下來請蘇柏豪理事發言"},{"start":15534.165,"end":15554.498,"text":"帮我把那个PTE再开一下那我们先从刚刚平台业者讲的运费转嫁的这个项目来讲我们都知道平台从抽成方面他是跟餐厅抽了35%不止35%啦其实还有月费还有广告费"},{"start":15555.419,"end":15576.8,"text":"然后甚至他还跟消费者收了外送费以及平台使用费甚至还有加速费是我要优先送达就要加钱这种东西费用其实加一加你说全部都是消费者付吗并没有其实餐厅才是付这个钱的大头我必须很老实的讲"},{"start":15577.601,"end":15596.514,"text":"對啊 那平台這樣子誤導消費者說那個我們要求外送員要求工資保障全部都會轉嫁成消費者那根本就是bullshit 胡說八道而且剛剛其實有平台說外送員工資高那你有沒有考慮過工時呢"},{"start":15597.168,"end":15623.189,"text":"对啊我在外送很好的时候我也跑过月收10万可是你有想过吗是400个小时一个月400个小时很可怕那是根本是用生命在跑的那你觉得这样真的高吗我们希望说我们也希望说立法可以好好的讨论好好的逐条审查可是已经拖了很久了我们并不觉得说可以再继续往下拖延"},{"start":15624.429,"end":15641.454,"text":"之前沒有提出來的權益自行放棄的我們不需要再為他們做任何的保障因為你自己放棄了我們花這麼久的時間你都沒有提出來我們為什麼還要保障你呢然後接下來勞動的停權的部分"},{"start":15643.826,"end":15666.368,"text":"停權與解約的部分停權與解約的部分我覺得目前我們外送員面臨到最大問題就是標準不明確我國是最新法定主義的國家你要停我權你要對我做任何懲處你都是要明確條文化顯示平台完全沒有他就一個很籠統的你可能怎麼樣你可能怎麼樣"},{"start":15667.569,"end":15688.801,"text":"然後呢我們在勞資調解會議上他們的代表可能是律師可能是代表他就跟你說我們是承攬制啊我不用提供任何理由反正我不用你就不用你啊不然你去搞嘿對就是這樣子那請問我們外送員怎麼去做這樣子的權利主張沒有辦法完全沒有辦法做這樣的權利主張"},{"start":15690.103,"end":15703.935,"text":"那在剛剛有提到說我們有這些平台的一些協商會勞動部主持一些平台協商會議那我們一直要求平台要明確化讓明確化提供這些案件"},{"start":15705.585,"end":15728.144,"text":"讓外送人有機會來申訴不提供啊 完全不提供啊我們甚至可以接受到模糊化提供你告訴我是哪一天不願意 完全不願意那請問怎麼申訴依據在哪裡我怎麼知道你的依據在什麼鬼地方這根本就不合理的事情啊"},{"start":15728.857,"end":15753.397,"text":"那所以我覺得說在短期的停權方面一定要有快速的仲裁機制長期的部分要有第三方的評議機制這我覺得這是一定要的而且都一定要建立補償機制讓平台知道說亂停權人是有代價的而不是你可以隨便停的你只要你只要仲裁或評議機制過了之後你就是要給補償"},{"start":15755.158,"end":15783.071,"text":"這樣才能杜絕平台無限制去侵害勞動權的狀況然後剛剛馬主席有提到啦他說因為兼職因為兼職的關係所以會造成說什麼承攬制什麼的請問各位在座各位兼職跟僱傭承攬有相關性嗎我兼職不能是僱傭的嗎我就請問你兼職不能是僱傭的嗎"},{"start":15784.622,"end":15812.121,"text":"為什麼不行這到底哪裡有相關性為什麼一定要把沒有相關的東西混合成一個有相關的東西這不是錯誤觀念的導致嗎對啊那我覺得我們大家外送員都已經受苦這麼久了今天就是要有一個平台的轉發的保障那才能讓這個產業可長可久尤其是外送員才能可長可久"},{"start":15813.001,"end":15825.584,"text":"不然的話永遠都是這樣子到底對這個產業有什麼好處謝謝謝謝蘇柏豪發言接下來再請文萬華理事長發言"},{"start":15835.263,"end":15845.674,"text":"各位先進辛苦好各位委員辛苦了我現在只想說對於平台我會想問大家都輸只有你贏嗎消費者這邊外送員這邊要提供合理的薪資你就說我要漲這個消費者的價錢"},{"start":15858.444,"end":15867.772,"text":"那你賺的都是你賺的你都不用負你的企業責任嗎你都不用拿你的盈餘出來去負你的責任就是要做一個甩手掌櫃我什麼都要賺嗎"},{"start":15870.678,"end":15890.235,"text":"再講這個停權的問題更生氣我希望大家知道我們要求的其實是責任的分要分得清楚我講個例子好了到底什麼東西是消費者應該要負的責任什麼東西是要外送員負的責任什麼東西是要店家負責任比如說我今天一個店我是外送員我送一個餐點到這個委員家"},{"start":15893.118,"end":15921.134,"text":"那委員上面寫因為這個是從疫情開始的所以會有無接觸送餐嘛那等於是你不是面交你不是面交就告訴我你把我放在什麼地點拍照那拍了照以後我是不是我就走了你知道會發生什麼事情嗎什麼事情都有可能發生例如有這個鄰居拿錯了例如有流浪漢拿走的那邊有現實的案例例如我親眼看見的被狗叼走了"},{"start":15922.722,"end":15949.173,"text":"我真的親眼看見的還有一個狀況是我是外送員我擺著拍照我自己拿走了可是在平台那邊來講只要是消費者他的第一選擇信任的是這個店家店家第一名是他出錢然後第二名是這個消費者消費者也出錢第二名所以呢倒楣的都是外送員你們說的都算就是外送員的錯只要東西不見了都是外送員的錯我也曾經跟我這個勞動部講過很多次"},{"start":15951.274,"end":15970.842,"text":"你像這種情況你如果選擇是面交對不對當然就是一貨兩棄一貨兩棄也有問題什麼問題我找錯錢他說我找錯錢問題是我都已經跟你找完了我都走了你再去跟平台報說你找錯錢然後變成平台就打個警告信恐嚇我說你這樣怎麼樣怎麼樣的"},{"start":15972.122,"end":15994.632,"text":"而且這種很恐嚇的字眼不是很舒服你送錯你東西沒有送到我明明就送到了然後東西被人家拿走了所以我拒掉了嘛他也要來恐嚇我說我恐有這個侵占之嫌還好我是跟這店家有有錄影這個部分我有請他調這個資料要不然我真的是這輩子清白都被毀了多可憐啊我很在乎我的清白好"},{"start":15995.812,"end":16017.59,"text":"還有我剛剛講的歷史就是在那疫情期間是有無接觸用餐你要不呢你就是選擇麵膠對不對然後營貨兩氣你要不呢如果你選擇的是就是放在指定地點那就像我如果叫一個快遞來我家那我人不在快遞說那要放哪裡我說那你幫我放門口好了請問東西掉了算誰的"},{"start":16018.308,"end":16031.381,"text":"責任當然是我自己啦所以現在要求的是清楚明白各項契約對於比如說平台跟店家跟外送員那我還有一個問題就是說你店家的東西如果東西有掉"},{"start":16032.557,"end":16059.501,"text":"有漏死你要算誰的你包裝不完整啊你為什麼不包裝完整的實在的問題也會有就可以解決了吧是不是你東西包裝完整我還完整的送到消費者手上就不會有打開東西會不見的風險嗎那而且外送人員要負責啊店家也要負責啊為什麼店家不用負責現在平台就是什麼都是外送人員負責啦店家如果我今天餐點交給你的時候我應該跟你對餐點我應該把我要餐點交給這個外送平台"},{"start":16059.941,"end":16071.316,"text":"我是外送員我跟你說店家我要幾號那店家就說這個是幾號是你的我再拿走可是現在的狀況實際狀況是店家把食物擺了一排外送員自己挑"},{"start":16072.728,"end":16090.717,"text":"你拿錯了也算你的他自己貼錯了也算你的真的很可憐啊我拜託這東西要理清楚好不好我們是我們的責任就我們來擔不是我們的責任就不要來擔像那種沒有面膠的東西但東西不見了消費者要自己擔哪謝謝感謝文理事長發言接下來請陳玉安理事長發言"},{"start":16107.455,"end":16129.33,"text":"好 那個全國外商產業公會第二次發言那目前有幾個狀況剛剛平台的說法我們認為不太能接受譬如說以停權機制來講我們先前在勞動部的會議也多次要求平台舉出所謂的停權樣態例如像是交通安全處罰條例一樣譬如說我闖紅燈我開罰金額是多少到多少"},{"start":16129.91,"end":16153.892,"text":"譬如說平台萬一要停權司機態度不佳如果是試遊正確的情況下應該停權幾天到幾天那這個平台目前都完全沒有提出來那平台剛剛表示說當消費者可能有碰到司機性騷擾等等的行為那我會想請問平台那當司機碰到消費者性騷擾的時候消費者要不要進行停權"},{"start":16154.893,"end":16171.418,"text":"還是消費者比較大所以消費者可以不用停權我們已經發生非常多次司機碰到消費者全裸取餐甚至送到汽車旅館要求在旁邊看你不看我就檢舉你那這樣子的狀況消費者是不是也要"},{"start":16172.423,"end":16184.213,"text":"被處理同時保障外送員根據陽明交大李博一教授之前的統計外送員在外送過程中有將近63.6%碰過言語暴力有15.2%碰過性騷擾的狀況15.2%一般的職場性騷擾大概是0.5到3.7%"},{"start":16192.6,"end":16212.919,"text":"等於是我們高於一般職場超過五倍以上同時有10.4%直接碰到肢體攻擊 肢體暴力這些是不是也必須要妥善處理而不是完全站在消費者這一方外送員碰到只能自行去自行去報案或是自行去解決還要付出舉證的責任"},{"start":16214.811,"end":16240.393,"text":"第二點 這個同時可以延伸出剛剛新竹工會理事長有提到我們所謂責任承擔的問題前陣子就有發生司機按照客戶的指定要求取單送單但是被認為是詐騙行為警方直接上銬帶走我們司機只負責取餐到送餐的過程我們並沒辦法知道商品內部甚至到包裹內部會是什麼樣的商品"},{"start":16241.173,"end":16256.349,"text":"過往也發生過司機配送到毒品槍支違禁品甚至送到立委服務區服務站的狀況這些難道都是外送員該承擔嗎最後定價的問題因為我們今天的店家代表沒辦法發言所以我這邊幫他說明一下"},{"start":16257.89,"end":16286.276,"text":"某平台目前有推出天天爽六五折的活動但許多店家在簽約的時候已經被綁定其他的活動內容最可笑的是由於平台的廣告業務是在馬來西亞根本不清楚這個活動的詳細內容同時也用電話不斷去騷擾其他的折扣方案導致嚴重的折扣疊加不透明的計算方式也跟外送員一樣完全是同胞式的金額"},{"start":16287.928,"end":16307.79,"text":"當老闆發現營業虧損想要暫停的時候卻被告知說你只能等候一個禮拜你只能等候一個月店家還要繼續接受這樣子虧損的處理那店家只能選擇一個最無奈的解決方式就是下線不營運同時平台上充斥著不講理的傲客專門吃霸王餐"},{"start":16309.448,"end":16332.575,"text":"的特定人士店家卻因為平台聚單每一筆必須扣15塊的二列規定不敢拒絕只能硬著頭皮接單承擔損失同時還有平台每個月向店家收取平台費但舉辦折扣活動但折扣的金額必須店家自行吸收每一筆訂單還要再扣一筆11塊的行銷費我們想請問平台你們在電視上打廣告難道會從每一筆訂單中"},{"start":16337.836,"end":16362.295,"text":"扣11元付給電視台嗎假設外送平台的合作店家全台有50萬家平均一天假設5萬個店家拒絕一單平台因為拒單的不當所得一天就高達75萬如果行銷費用抽成11元50萬店家一天算有一單是配合行銷費用那一天的所得就有550萬"},{"start":16364.926,"end":16390.185,"text":"台灣多少的合作店家這樣不合理的剝削平台一天的不當收益非常的龐大而上述所有的問題根本在於平台在台灣沒有設立實體的窗口當老闆們遇到問題的時候只能透過罐頭式的電子郵件或者是遠在馬來西亞的客服溝通效率極低而且求商無門所以我們希望政府可以正視這個問題所以第一點資訊透明化所有的活動"},{"start":16390.845,"end":16419.892,"text":"折扣金額折扣方式必須清楚揭露禁止隱藏條款也禁止同胞式的金額設立在地客服必須在台灣設立實體的申訴窗口提供及時有效的服務第三禁止不合理的罰款例如廢除拒單條款等不公平規定四明確成本分攤行銷活動的成本分攤必須合理且經雙方同意我們要的只是一個公平透明的合作環境"},{"start":16420.672,"end":16444.368,"text":"不能讓這些平台一邊賺著龐大的利益一邊把所有的經營風險全部轉嫁到辛苦的店家身上立法保障合作店家刻不容緩感謝大家謝謝陳玉安理事長發言現在我最後再問一下還有沒有學者專家要補充發言"},{"start":16446.107,"end":16470.425,"text":"有嗎要我先我再問一下他們還有沒有還沒有想要補充發言的好如果目前都沒有要補充發言那接下來就是學者專家及委員均已發言完畢請行政機關做整體回應那首先會請勞動部部長回應那接下來還要麻煩這個請數位發展部準備還有經濟部的商業發展署準備"},{"start":16471.266,"end":16482.614,"text":"以及行政院消費者保護處和法務部以及公平交易委員會服務業競爭處都準備就是可以做回應時間暫定三分鐘可以那就先請司長"},{"start":16494.629,"end":16505.608,"text":"主席 各位先進今天有機會來聆聽我們各位先進針對外送平台以及外送員的保障的立法的一切討論我們大家的意見"},{"start":16506.823,"end":16530.481,"text":"我們都會列為我們未來這個立法非常重要的參考那首先也很謝謝我們特別是外送工會的夥伴們我們長期來確實透過那個平台的方式雖然感覺上進展不是很大但是也讓我們充分了解了我們工會特別是我們外送員對於整個外送的過程當中最在意的哪些事項都沒有得到一些確保"},{"start":16531.081,"end":16555.612,"text":"那這也提供給我們在立專法的時候呢一個非常重要的考量那在這幾個月來部長帶領著我們然後來很快速的方式來炒泥漿的一個法案那我們也感謝各部會一起我們合作也提供一些意見給我們那我就簡單的敘述一下我們比較幾個重點的重點大概是要朝什麼方向第一個大家最關心的就是還是報仇"},{"start":16556.812,"end":16574.311,"text":"那我們也認為報酬的透明化跟標準化跟可預測性是一個非常重要的一個題目這也是衛送員工會長期不斷的呼籲我們都搞不清楚我們真正的報酬會在哪裡計算所以這次我們的報酬就有個明確的規範特別是跟交通部"},{"start":16574.952,"end":16604.432,"text":"他针对这个外送的费用的运价我们做一个联动此外呢我们还特别用我们的最低公司的保障让他两层的保护那我们这一次确实不是在帮外送员调薪也不是在涨价我们的目的是让他透明化让我们的外送员再不会处于搞不清楚他每一趟的运价的价他运他的报酬的运费怎么来搞不清楚对他很不公平"},{"start":16605.212,"end":16630.715,"text":"那其实呢终止契约确实没有错今天很多工会提到这也是在我们平台上讨论的非常多次但是也确实很可惜就是我们的平台业者对这件事情一直始终都很保留那这一次呢我们也特别要强调因为特别是终止契约这部分我们非常非常在意因为终止契约以后呢他真的就没有工作了那对他来讲如果这是一个专职工作他等同"},{"start":16631.055,"end":16654.031,"text":"没有收入来源所以我们特别对终止契约这部分我们做的比较强化我们预计要规划有违反了六个重大的法律而且要情节重大你才可以终止契约而且我们也希望公司要设立一个独立超然的小组我们要保护消费者没有错但是我们一定要有一个独立超然的一个"},{"start":16655.232,"end":16676.973,"text":"内部一个小组来做一个审议然后让我们的外送员也比较公平这也是我们特别针对工作权的部分其次就是申诉制度我们也花了一些时间来思考怎么去完整的一个申诉跟救济外送员工会不断的跟我们强调每每遇到这种情形都找不到人都是罐头"},{"start":16677.834,"end":16698.854,"text":"所以我們也在思考法案裡面要強化 怎麼樣去建立更好的申訴制度最後商業保險跟我們的社會保險 特別是職債的保險的部分我們這裡也會做一個相當程度的規劃讓我們的外送員在執行職務的時候 特別針對他的職債的保險有更好的保障"},{"start":16699.574,"end":16720.492,"text":"那我們正在緊鑼密鼓的部長常常就帶著我們不斷的在討論那我們一定會用最快的方法把它研究更完整但確實這個部分因為涉及到好幾方還有各部會我們需要一點時間那大家如果各位各界還有其他的意見再提供給我們我們來做更完整的訂定以上非常感謝 謝謝謝謝 感謝司長回應接下來請勞動部洪部長"},{"start":16733.079,"end":16753.168,"text":"主席然後今天包括各位今天現場還有幾位朝野的委員然後有很多我們在這個外送的厲害相關方那首先我要先很謝謝大家今天早上一個早上大家的各種的意見的提供那我其實我其實抄了滿滿的好幾張的筆記然後"},{"start":16757.17,"end":16771.576,"text":"我想我们在劳务在处理这件事情上面我觉得会根基于一些最根本性的认识确实今天在外送平台的议题上面为什么过去复杂而不容易处理有几个大的原因"},{"start":16772.516,"end":16799.109,"text":"第一個這個外送員跟外送平台之間的關係上面他跟過往傳統的勞動關係的確是有蠻多的不同所以他不太是一個傳統的我說傳統的雇傭關係但的確平台也透過這些數位的技術包括演算法的技術在進行某種程度對外送員的指揮跟監督"},{"start":16800.649,"end":16828.603,"text":"那甚至可能從外送員的角度來說會認為是更進一步的控制那這裡面一個核心的命題就是如果這個指揮監督甚至從外送員的角度認為是控制當他在手段上面的使用我說手段可能包括停權可能包括終止契約可能各種的這樣子的手段的運用的時候"},{"start":16829.958,"end":16855.61,"text":"當他在權力關係上面太過於失衡的時候其實這裡面就會造成一些不公平的狀況甚至會造成更多的糾紛跟問題所以如果從這個角度來想的話我們的確在思考這個法案的時候有一個很大的部分是恐怕是需要對於這些過去這些數位技術上面的方法"},{"start":16856.97,"end":16883.36,"text":"包括剛剛講到停權等等他其實可能是要去這也是平台需要去做很多在勞動這個指揮關係上面的掌控那怎麼來拉回一些這些權力的平衡我想這是現在我們剛才聽到很多外送員跟工會的代表其實非常非常在意的事情因為可能過去在這個關係上面他的確是有些失衡的那這個失衡的關係真的造成了一些問題"},{"start":16884.74,"end":16911.233,"text":"那第二件事情是的確不管是從外送員的角度或從平台的角度也好雙方他們都有他們期待的彈性雙方其實都期待彈性那在這個彈性上面怎麼讓它既有保有一定的彈性可是又不會讓這個彈性去過度的侵犯到安全的問題就是說因為這個彈性而不顧某些安全這是大家不樂意見到的事情"},{"start":16912.413,"end":16930.002,"text":"那也因為其實它是有一定的彈性所以它也還是會有風險那這個風險要怎麼承擔這個風險承擔的比例跟結構該是如何我剛剛在講的這些都是在我們現在在討論這個議題裡面我覺得非常關鍵性的問題那我要很謝謝大家剛剛其實也提供給我很多"},{"start":16930.842,"end":16947.59,"text":"進一步的資訊 當然這些資訊之前在勞動部做跟平台跟外收人之間的條件裡面我們有一定的掌握可是當我們進到這個專法的討論裡面其實這一些在資訊上面的辯證或者是釐清我覺得也對專法的的"},{"start":16950.512,"end":16969.524,"text":"設計跟行購其實我覺得也更重要那我最後想要說的事情是我想的確大家可能會很多人會認為說這個外送專法真的過去醞釀的時間真的比較久會期待他更更更快速我想老公會用最積極的太我這邊可以跟大家保證好"},{"start":16970.865,"end":16993.975,"text":"我們會用最積極的態度來提出相關的這些不管是版本或者是剛剛大家其實還是有一些地方是爭議需要釐清或者是需要拿出一套解決方法做法我們會用最積極的態度來去處理這個問題但的確因為這個專法涉及到的利害相關方很多"},{"start":16994.895,"end":17012.085,"text":"所以我們也覺得要怎麼樣這裡面有更完整的審議的空間因為剛剛有幾位委員說我們需要更多的社會對話我說如果我現在勞動部跟大家說需要更多社會對話可能就有人說你是不是又不想要審了你是不是又只想要讓大家停留在對話的過程我說沒有"},{"start":17012.765,"end":17037.941,"text":"我們不是只是想讓他停留在對話的過程我覺得我們是必須要在積極的審議可是這個積極的審議去釐清問題甚至在這些審問題裡面去找到合理的解決的方案那讓這個解決的方案能夠進入到法條的保障裡面我想我們的態度是會是這個這個態度來處理問題所以很謝謝大院也包括委員會那願意給我們這個機會"},{"start":17039.122,"end":17061.074,"text":"那我们会尽我们所能在各方之间去尽量寻找在各方之间的这个权益上面的平衡那尤其是外送员因为的确如果刚才大家听下来就很清楚其实外送员在这个过去的过程里面在权益上面是的确是需要进一步保障的可是这里面的确不是外送员包括刚才讲到消费者"},{"start":17061.554,"end":17086.037,"text":"包括刚才讲到店家甚至刚才也会有一些专业的资讯会是从平台的业者这边来做提供这些事情我们都听到了但是我想接下来我们会有很多需要一起合作的地方那我们会积极的来跟大家做沟通包括协商包括有一些处理问题的方案怎么样其实可以得到最多的平衡而且能够解决最大部分的问题以上谢谢"},{"start":17089.58,"end":17096.93,"text":"謝謝感謝紅部長那接下來請速發部主任秘書是不是也發表一些回應"},{"start":17104.481,"end":17131.982,"text":"主席還有各位與會專家大家午安大概有三點跟各位簡單的說明第一點就是行政院已經有指定交通部是我們外送平台的治理機關所以我們在今年7月的時候大概有針對整個治理的部分有去做討論包括我們可能要做整個行外送平台的經營管理的指引或者是相關的運價的透明化跟外送服務的契約範本等等"},{"start":17133.243,"end":17161.896,"text":"那這些相關的工作事實上行政部門正在推進當中那我們抒發部主要是負責第三方支付的管理的部分所以大家可以看到我們今天的報告裡面敘述了非常多的風險的管控或者是希望這個平台業者可以意識到相關的風險對待他的三支的業者要對待他的相關的客戶需要做一些風險的分類或者去做管制的部分那當然今天主要還是針對外送平台的"},{"start":17162.936,"end":17184.393,"text":"治理的部分那雖然我們只過去只針對這個三支的部分可是今天透過大家討論起來發現事實上裡面還是會有一些技術面的問題包括大家可能針對這個相關的演算法怎麼樣更透明或者是是不是這個外送的人員他也應該有知情同意或者是"},{"start":17185.854,"end":17204.646,"text":"數據要可吸或者是有一些項目真的還是需要經過人工審核的部分我想這些不管是政策面的問題或技術面的問題那抒發部主要會針對技術面的問題去協助相關的行政部門去做必要的諮詢或協助"},{"start":17206.307,"end":17229.688,"text":"那最後當然是整個立法我們是樂觀其成的不過我們大概會配合這個勞動部跟交通部對於整個平台的治理方面去做必要的協助跟參與討論那以上是書法部簡要的說明謝謝謝謝我也補充一下等一下也請交通部最後準備回應那再來請經濟部商業發展署主任秘書"},{"start":17239.009,"end":17239.09,"text":"還沒有開"},{"start":17241.874,"end":17269.32,"text":"主席 各位與會專家學者 大家好經濟部作為這個輔導餐飲業跟零售業發展的主管機關我們為了使這個合作商家和平台的業者可以在公平互信的基礎上面穩定合作同時可以去兼顧這個合作商家他的經營自主和合理的利潤經濟部會去訂定外送服務的這個契約範本來促使這個合作商家跟外送平台中間"},{"start":17270.14,"end":17284.831,"text":"會有一個穩定健全的發展以上所以經濟部會去訂定這個範本是不是ok接下來請行政院消費者保護處"},{"start":17299.419,"end":17318.999,"text":"主席各位先進大家好行政院消費者保護署報告關於那個外送平台的那個治理的部分因為那個外送平台牽涉的平台業者跟外送員還有消費者還有合作的商家有很多的多方的那個法律關係那我們為了要維護當事人之間的權利義務關係"},{"start":17320.16,"end":17335.588,"text":"所以本院在那個已經請交通部擔任那個外送平台的治理機關那交通部也就那個消費者保護的部分他也正在嚴定那個外送平台服務定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項那我們會"},{"start":17340.931,"end":17358.347,"text":"在那個依照消防法的規定等那個交通部他提送那個報送那個應濟財不得計財事項到我們這邊的時候那剛剛那個各位先進的那個相關的建議那這個部分我們到時候在審議的時候也會納入一個考量以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來請法務部參事"},{"start":17377.668,"end":17401.615,"text":"還沒有開前面就前方主席各位委員各位女士先生請代表法務部回應有關這個外送平台管理還有外送人員權益保障的各項議題這是涉及數位平台網路以及實體的業務那所設的各方權益及管理條件多元也相當複雜如果有爭議其實是分別屬交通部勞動部"},{"start":17404.06,"end":17425.858,"text":"衛生福利部經濟部數位發展部行政院消費者保護處等權責機關那都是涉及重要政策的選項跟決定那聆聽實務參與業務各層面的聲音還有相關領域的專業意見對於未來的修法是非常關鍵那主管權責機關當然必須配合而且綜合評估"},{"start":17426.698,"end":17445.068,"text":"尋求各方的權益衡平還有最大的共識支持因此各位委員還有團體學界機關等各界的專業意見本部都與尊重那緊究法制面尤其是涉及外送員跟外送平台業者之間的法律關係部分本部提供以下的意見供參考"},{"start":17447.807,"end":17461.306,"text":"勞動基準法裡面所規定的勞動契約其實是指約定勞僱關係而具有從屬性的契約所以在勞動基準法所定的勞動契約其實是不以民法所規定的僱傭契約為限"},{"start":17462.808,"end":17481.918,"text":"只要勞務給付的契約具有從屬性勞動性質的縱使他是兼有承攬或者是委任性質仍然應該屬於勞動契約這個是司法院大法官會議解釋還有法院的判決以及本部過往的函釋都有一致的見解"},{"start":17483.438,"end":17510.26,"text":"所以在外送員跟他所屬外送平台業業者之間訂立的勞務契約是不是屬於勞動契約而能夠依照適用勞動基準法相關的規定來保障這個要觀察個案事實還有契約整體的內容目前是這樣那看看這樣的一個比他們勞務債權債務人跟債權之間的從屬性程度高低來判斷"},{"start":17511.522,"end":17527.519,"text":"那至於今天討論很多的停權保險還有這個報酬運費這些相關規範的規定這些就必須要仰賴主管機關權責機關多面向多層次的思維還有整體的配套考量"},{"start":17528.263,"end":17550.948,"text":"藉由專業的審慎評估來做成政策決定確立具有社會共識的政策以及修法的方向來研擬相關草案條文那本部尊重主管機關以及各個權責機關的政策決定以及大院的審議結果 以上謝謝 感謝法務部回應接下來請公平交易委員會服務業競爭處的副處長陳俊廷"},{"start":17559.08,"end":17559.1,"text":"會員還有"},{"start":17561.207,"end":17589.36,"text":"主席委員還有各位與會的社會賢達大家好我這邊請代表公平交易委員會來就我們公平交易法的一個立場來表達我們對這個案子的一個意見那剛剛在整個公聽會的過程中立法院的賴顧問還有我們立法院的王振旭委員也有垂詢就是說為什麼我們公平會對於這個案子有關於價格的部分有點"},{"start":17590.6,"end":17618.297,"text":"有點意見那因為我們公平交易委員會是一個競爭法的一個主管機關那競爭法他最重要的一個目的這個核心就是尊重市場機能也就是市場要能自由的運作所以呢對於在外送平台的案件裡面曾經過往公平會對於外送平台對於居宿餐廳的店內價的一個自由我們曾經予以干涉跟處分"},{"start":17618.897,"end":17644.502,"text":"那對於在今年初呢兩大外送平台的合併案我們最後也基於促進市場競爭的一個考量我們做了一個禁止結合的一個決定其實所有的一個核心的一個精神就是希望市場要能競爭那我們公平交易委員會是認為說市場它本身就是一個看不見的手雖然看不見可是它其實是在運作的"},{"start":17645.382,"end":17665.634,"text":"什麼樣的價格是最好的其實不要是人為去干涉的那本案在我們當然理解說這一次的公聽會與會的社會賢達跟相關的委員都有期待針對於外送的一個報酬訂定一個下限來做一個對外送員的保障我們理解"},{"start":17666.474,"end":17683.769,"text":"但是我們認為說就是說在這種時候其實就是一個人為的干預啊人為干預一定會比較好嗎我們不知道其實應該說價格的高或低其實公平會其實是沒有意見的我們認為如果是市場決定出來的一個價格但如果說認為"},{"start":17686.363,"end":17705.272,"text":"我們經過立法的過程決定說要進行干預的話我們只能在這邊是要提醒說那他反射出來的一個影響必然就是在於平台還有在消費者以及店家他們等等的交易關係的價格一定通常也會"},{"start":17706.292,"end":17729.068,"text":"變成聯動的影響但我們沒辦法去預測我們只知道說這邊告知就是說如果會那個一方面的一個價格的一個干涉不可能不牽動到另外一方面其他的平台的一個的各方相關方的一個利益那該怎麼去調整當然就是我們整個社會的一個共識"},{"start":17731.246,"end":17751.387,"text":"跳脫除了本會的一個報告請各位參閱之外其實我也在講一個就是說曾經設計界有一個話語就是說大家都希望設計是希望要好要快可是他就是會貴如果是要便宜要好就要等那如果要便宜要快就是醜"},{"start":17752.108,"end":17780.202,"text":"那有沒有要好要快又便宜不存在所以就是說就是我們只要一干涉的一個價格他必然他會連動到平台的行為會連動到店家的行為還有消費者的行為那可是呢我們不是說不能干涉是說當我們社會決定要干涉的時候那變動必然是會存在的那以該怎麼樣的決定那當然我們尊重整個社會的一個討論以上報告"},{"start":17782.101,"end":17794.522,"text":"謝謝我另外想要請教一下不好意思因為剛剛這個我們業者代表說當初在合併的時候你們有做一個很詳細的研究報告然後後來提出來的時候是被碼掉的對不對"},{"start":17796.276,"end":17820.034,"text":"應該是說我們當 回主席當時我們做的一個是從競爭法的觀點是問了一個什麼樣的問題是說當如果價格提高的時候消費者會怎麼選擇是離開平台不使用還是會轉往其他的餐廳還是跳到別的平台我們是從這個競爭的觀點來做做分析的就是說當"},{"start":17822.887,"end":17847.996,"text":"那個平台譬如說foodpanda跟uber eats一結合之後市場競爭就減少競爭減少他們很有可能就是提高價格一提高價格的時候我們看的是消費者跟店家他們如何去選擇的問題是繼續使用外送平台還是就直接跳離了那這個就會影響到說消費者對他們的抗衡的一個力量我們是從這個觀點來看待的這個報告"},{"start":17850.607,"end":17872.883,"text":"謝謝可不可以提供給本席辦公室可以好謝謝那我覺得也可以提供給本委員會的相關的委員辦公室提供給我們委員會再請就是這邊委員做出主席這邊做出記錄我們依照主席的這個要求好那你就提供給這個本委員會的委員辦公室好了謝謝然後再來請交通部"},{"start":17888.867,"end":17906.797,"text":"還有各位產官學界的先進那大家好那我想其實今天我從一早就聽到現在所以大家對於那個立專法的期待大概我們都有聽到那其實誠如那個其實剛剛包括勞動部都有提到說其實這個"},{"start":17907.837,"end":17925.656,"text":"整个平台经济有涉及的面向就包括消费者包括平台平台业者也包括商家也包括外送员所以他是一个多面向的那涉及的议题又包括食安职安交安等问题所以他其实是一个蛮复杂的一个关系"},{"start":17928.118,"end":17946.679,"text":"那很感謝那個勞動部這邊其實已經出來就是做相關的專法大概也都有找相關部會來做一個討論那交通部的部分大概會就交通安全的部分還有那個基本運價的透明化的部分那我們都會趕快來辦理再來就是消費者權益的部分那我們"},{"start":17947.659,"end":17964.687,"text":"剛剛那個消保處也有提到說我們也會研擬那個消費者的那個營計載不得計載事項所以後續的部分我們大概都會在積極的一個辦理那也會把今天大家的意見融入我們後續的跟勞動部討論的一個條文中來盡量能夠納入那以上好謝謝那這個行政部門的回應都結束了有沒有還要補充的好"},{"start":17975.543,"end":17996.64,"text":"那如果沒有的話我覺得因為這是一個新的專法那所以重點是如何在各方權益如何在新法的框架之下可以獲得保障和彈性那這也是為什麼今天公聽會幾乎把所有的所有的人都所有面向都找來做討論的我相信今天有非常多好的"},{"start":17997.28,"end":18026.36,"text":"很寶貴的意見那當然過程中一定會有各種問題現在有許多的新法專法立完之後也都會面臨到後續有相關的問題但就法制面來講我想法律是架構那立法技術上面我們也會想辦法看怎麼用授權或準用等方式讓各行政部門也可以有一定的彈性但是這些在立法前和立法後都要動態的持續調整那我覺得這部分就是各部會也持續的共同來努力"},{"start":18027.02,"end":18035.142,"text":"好那所以目前為止就今天的公聽會差不多到這裡那委員盧憲一所提書面資料列入公報記錄"},{"start":18038.905,"end":18057.268,"text":"在做以下結論依據立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見以及書面資料"},{"start":18058.69,"end":18073.909,"text":"會編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表學者專家參閱那今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束散會謝謝"},{"start":18112.051,"end":18116.621,"text":"謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"17016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17016","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d130bdd2cddfd4385775d1cb19bfd4f9f83051bafb051454b0ca06677d61868535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【11月5日及6日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-06T08:36:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T12:06:00+08:00","duration":12587,"影片長度":"03:29:47","委員發言時間":"08:36:13 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新藏文物展及測出書法展等"},{"start":1905.416,"end":1922.111,"text":"另外配合節慶、展覽、針對不同年齡、策辦多元教育推廣活動、豐富博館體驗、透過青年教育推廣及行銷專案、兒童青少年志工培訓與管校合作等計畫,連結故宮與大眾,促進社會對話交流。"},{"start":1923.312,"end":1945.135,"text":"開放分享多元行銷持續推廣數位典藏文物資料開放優化主題網站及線上資源應用新媒體載具及平台展示博物館數位應用建構智慧博物館與AI科技的藝術展廳那另外的話結合數位科技在地文化"},{"start":1947.457,"end":1973.113,"text":"我們今年會以南洋博物館策判淨水國寶故宮南洋特展及世衛展另外參與2026台灣燈會在嘉義及國內外重要大型展會規劃北部延期暑假親子共學遊程南部延期親子夏日藝術夜及故宮亞洲藝術節等多元文化體驗串聯創意行銷促進資源共享與社群參與"},{"start":1976.393,"end":1997.432,"text":"3.友善共融文化平衡实际召开故宫博物院身心障碍文化参与执行会提升服务品质会议提供软硬体设施强化第一线服务量能优化博物馆的一个体验营造友善参观环境对身心障碍者低度参与者热灵族群规划"},{"start":1999.033,"end":2014.081,"text":"聽農共賞等活動永續發展接軌國際方面持續以辦理國境化交流活動強化與各縣市地方管所資源共享持續辦理故宮國寶出遊區讓典堂文物走出故宮"},{"start":2016.267,"end":2035.869,"text":"另外就是推動故宮數位行為展應用科技突破地理限制讓更多國際觀眾親近台灣的文化資源也展示台灣文化與科技融合的前瞻思維另外透過新故宮計畫持續推動北部縣區南部縣區二館新建工程建置智慧化庫房與管理監控系統"},{"start":2037.731,"end":2061.693,"text":"針對近期國外博物館文物失竊事件本院已召開安全防護檢討會議並規劃在11月17號模擬演習希望積極提升管束安全及國內文化交流依佔防護機制及持續提升文物安全管理向深化博物館的永續發展基礎敬請各位委員指教並繼續給予支持"},{"start":2066.594,"end":2085.636,"text":"謝謝蕭院長口頭報告現在進行尋答每位出席委員執行時間6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘練習委員執行時間4分鐘登記發言發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分委員如果臨時提案請於上午10時30分前提出"},{"start":2086.456,"end":2104.986,"text":"並在本會委員吳佩奕質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位萬美玲委員質詢謝謝召委那我們有請院長請蕭院長"},{"start":2111.902,"end":2137.559,"text":"好 院長早我們看到10月19號震驚全世界法國的羅浮宮竟然發生了價值8800萬歐元的八件19世紀法國皇室珠寶遭竊我相信這個消息一出來的時候院長一定也有高度的關切當然我也看到在媒體上也有提到說針對羅浮宮的一個竊案我們故宮也趕快來看一下我們自己的防護要怎麼升級 怎麼加強"},{"start":2138.699,"end":2159.852,"text":"除了我們提升巡邏的頻率夜間的巡查還有把很多這些高文物價值的展示櫃防暴系統等等我們整個全面看看有沒有需要補強或者是提升的我覺得我們馬上來做這些我覺得很棒但是事實上我想故宮自從來台灣這75年來我們是零失竊沒有錯嗎我們的紀錄是零失竊"},{"start":2166.26,"end":2184.73,"text":"但你剛剛猶豫一下本席嚇一跳耶對啊我們大家每個人的心都提上來了我想是數據錯誤嗎是曾經有失線是不是不是數據錯誤而是說民俗上都有一個講法說配配配有些話不能講好 那來來來我們敲一下"},{"start":2185.47,"end":2211.918,"text":"好但是我跟你講我們尊重一下敲三下但是重點還是我們怎麼去防護怎麼去保護這個是比較重要的我們到目前為止零失竊的一個狀況我想除了我們所有故宮的這些人員大家很努力之外也要歸功於我們北院的地勢還有後山山洞庫房嚴密的監控系統等等有這些優勢"},{"start":2212.998,"end":2221.466,"text":"可是本席非常擔心喔南苑沒有這個先天地勢上的一個優勢那能不能院長來說一下那對於南苑的部分我們怎麼加強"},{"start":2222.948,"end":2250.06,"text":"跟委員報告就是南延的話是一個新的一個延區規劃那當然它是一個開放式的延區可是以現在來講的話因為新的建築規劃的話它整個維安保全的話它是導入一個比較新型的一個機制譬如說我們有三層的防護系統三層的話第一個是外圍的延區入延的話它有一個基本的管制"},{"start":2251.481,"end":2264.856,"text":"我們的人員的話會有定時跟不定時的行檢第二層的話就是建物本身建物本身是一個新的建築所以它的監視安全系統是沒有問題的第三的話是展廳跟庫房"},{"start":2265.799,"end":2291.187,"text":"那三層的防衛基本上來講的話我們都是在規劃的時候就已經都到位了所以基本上是沒有太大的問題這個我想有機會我們委員會可以再去看一看那當然就是這邊提醒那另外我想這一次我們有131件的這個國寶文物在捷克博物館展出當然我們要去做這個展其實這過程當中大家也都很努力很辛苦才能夠成就這一個展但是呢"},{"start":2291.927,"end":2319.05,"text":"在9月25號的時候就傳出來說陸委會接到了這個電子恐嚇的郵件那揚言說如果我們故宮文物要繼續在捷克展出的話那可能會對這個捷克博物館不管是縱火啦開槍啦這個竊盜啦等等其實這個恐嚇的這個味道非常的重那當然我想這個外交部文化部也都有收到故宮也知道嘛那我們接到這樣的一個恐嚇郵件之後"},{"start":2319.71,"end":2324.484,"text":"我們故宮做了哪些事情那到目前為止因為也又再過了一個多月的時間那狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":2327.305,"end":2356.457,"text":"根據委員報告第一個我首先當然就是呼籲就是對於國際文化交流這種不友善的一個威脅行動的話就是說我們可以譴責那這個事情發生之後我們馬上跟捷克透過電話跟視訊聯絡那我們也共同開過視訊會議然後他們那邊一再保證就是所有的文物借產程序跟維安程序的話"},{"start":2357.397,"end":2374.442,"text":"都是很正常的運作另外的話我們雙方也都通知警方跟檢調單位進行檢調那包括捷克的外交部長的話他們也發表聲明去譴責這樣的一個行為所以目前兩邊的聯繫"},{"start":2376.323,"end":2396.003,"text":"因为为了我们这个故宫文物要去其实本席其实在去年的时候我们有去看那个场地那不管是怎么样去保护我们的文物然后这个展出或者是媒体宣传等等其实我们那时候花了很多的时间在那边双方做沟通但发生了这样的事情我想我们不能有一颗松懈虽然我们谴责过了"},{"start":2396.283,"end":2416.065,"text":"那在當時我們也警惕了但是我希望就是在我們文物沒有回台之前我們時時刻刻我們跟捷克那個地方都要保持一個很密切的聯繫隨時注意狀況我想這個這個本席來做一個提醒好不好對 這個我們一直在強化那另外的話就是捷克方面的話他們是採取議業入場就是為了強化他的"},{"start":2417.006,"end":2443.321,"text":"這個我知道院長謝謝接下來我想要再請教一下就是關於我們談過很多次的故宮觀光的人次我們來看一下我們有一個表我們的簡報這個是在1到8月今年全台灣博物館的參訪人次的排名我們看到第一名嘉義市立美術館說實在話本席還沒有去過看到它排名第一參訪人次高達353萬次"},{"start":2445.242,"end":2456.03,"text":"我其实是想要找一个人去看一看这个院长去过了吗经常去经常去好那经常去这个第一名到第八名您都去过了吗"},{"start":2457.624,"end":2479.182,"text":"每一个都去过都去过了那我们为什么落在第九名啊我们北部院区啊故宫博物院的观众人数的统计的话有几个基础第一个是卖票那第二个的话就是有公文有文件然后都是有统计第三个的话就是进入闸门所以我们的统计基础的话是非常严谨的"},{"start":2479.482,"end":2507.295,"text":"非常嚴謹你的落差也很大好不好你現在參訪人次就145萬喔所以我覺得要看一下那第二個呢我們就以地緣來講在嘉義地區你看一看我們的南院啊還是排名在第八這個參訪人次當然我們不能跟第一的來比啊但是我們也是一樣跟嘉義市立美術館比喔就遠遠落後非常多啊同樣地緣就是在嘉義啊所以我想院長有去過那我覺得我們要去看一看我們怎麼樣去提升我們每一年每一年都在這裡講喔"},{"start":2508.195,"end":2532.825,"text":"要把這個南北院參訪人次把它提高那本席是跟您建議尤其是如果不管南院北院尤其假設這個嘉義美術館這麼多人去那本席當然也要找個時間去看一看那是不是南院也有考慮說我們來跟嘉義市政府來合作那甚至於可以跟這些美術館嘉義市裡美術館來做串聯或許可以打造一個文化走廊來提升南院的參觀人次院長覺得可行嗎"},{"start":2533.645,"end":2556.536,"text":"可行 沒有問題但是我還是要跟委員澄清一下就是說每一個館對於它的觀眾的統計方式有不同的基礎所以這個部分的話就是如果依照嘉義市立美術館353萬的話它就是每一課裡面因為它很小裡面塞滿的人走都走不動所以委員可以去看一下"},{"start":2557.516,"end":2565.504,"text":"是不是真實的情況這個樣子但是我對於各個管社他們對觀眾統計的一個方式我都可以尊重"},{"start":2567.028,"end":2590.947,"text":"我覺得這個數字我們大家拿來看但是最重要的是實際參訪人次我們北越南越把它衝高最後幾秒鐘我來提醒您一下我們新故宮計畫裡面其實爭議頗大的玻璃入口亭這件事情因為不管我們違反文資法或者是相關的這些委員有意見因為故宮也有提出來說要把新的計畫提出來以後再來討論"},{"start":2591.687,"end":2618.747,"text":"但现在本席不管是在计划上没有看到在115年我们的总预算当中也没有看到这个入孔亭的工程跟计划相关那是不是我们已经取消了还是现在是什么状况能不能减速一下经过台北市文资的两次审议都没有通过但是它都有一个附带条件就是请修正以后再送所以目前的话我们重新跟那个团队在检讨之中所以还在修正中那这个计划还在吗"},{"start":2620.194,"end":2638.046,"text":"計劃當然還在好 我想院長其實要去參考一下台北市政府的意見還有我們這些專家學者的意見是不是宜這樣做那今年因為預算也沒有把它編進去計劃也還沒有出來我希望再去審慎思考沒有必要做的事情就不要做了好嗎是 我們會審慎檢討好 謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員質詢院長請回座接下來請柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":2651.974,"end":2654.675,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們是不是請院長請蕭院長柯委員早院長早請問院長北越你知道距離我們最近的警察局距離大概多少他的派出所的話距離我們大概200公尺吧200公尺 下山以後對200公尺 萬一故宮發生任何事故的話警察多久時間可以到達"},{"start":2676.708,"end":2690.803,"text":"我們有所謂的六分鐘六分鐘嗎 有做過這個演練嗎副院長說五分鐘五分鐘有做過這個演練嗎我們有做過演練有做過演練啦 什麼時候一年多少次"},{"start":2692.25,"end":2721.073,"text":"我可以请副院长回答所以是600公尺一年做多少次为什么要特别提出这个问题因为很严重罗浮宫发生非常大的一个重大的窃案然后故宫就说你们要深次的警惕跟反省引以为戒所以说我们当然要来了解一下这个故宫有没有这个安全的维护包括防盗防窃冲突事件那罗浮宫呢距离警察局大概是800公尺结果7分钟之内被偷了8件的宝物所以院长"},{"start":2722.014,"end":2746.046,"text":"你們是600公尺5分鐘就會到200公尺5分鐘會到然後呢剩下的然後每年多少的演練這點我們要很重要啊OK故宮是國內唯一的那個重大基礎設施所以基本上來講的話我們在國土安全署的一個監護之下的話每年都會進行相關跟我們的警察局包括北院跟南院都有一年演練幾次我要這個資料"},{"start":2750.847,"end":2765.973,"text":"以竊盜案來講我們去年做過一次那今天我們還會再做一次那13號還會再做一次所以一年超過三四四次南院北院都是一樣跟警察局共同來合作把一些的資料請給本縣"},{"start":2766.993,"end":2782.884,"text":"因為這非常非常的一個重要為什麼我要這邊提你看7分鐘內偷走8件寶物然後因為故宮也不是沒有讓的一個記錄去年5月的時候就短暫的停電1分鐘之內當然就立即的供電但是我們要回顧到2022年的時候在南院曾經長達10個小時"},{"start":2785.646,"end":2801.074,"text":"那我们当然知道这是因为第六宫殿回路跳脱但是对不起这整个的过程当中呢共花了十个小时不管是离亲或是恢复闭馆等等之类的我觉得对于一个国家级的博物馆来说院长你满意这样的一个效率吗呃"},{"start":2804.251,"end":2822.837,"text":"這個部分當然是我們要檢討因為應該我還沒有到任不過這個是迴路跳脫的話基本上來講的話是燈光照明會有影響他的整個安全不管是如何院長這個就是完全事情發生之後你的整個的緊急的處置的一個措施"},{"start":2823.337,"end":2845.229,"text":"您很幸幸的他還不是在展館所以沒有任何的損失萬一在一個展館10個小時我覺得這個部分就是姿勢體大所以我們要問的就是萬一展場停電的話你們的SOP會是什麼基本上來講的話故宮現在的話都有不斷電的系統南北延區的話可以維持多久"},{"start":2848.687,"end":2857.518,"text":"這個應該立即回應還有最重要的如果報案的話警力到底在北院多久時間到南院多久時間到這是我們最需要知道剛剛北院的話就是講說6分鐘南院呢"},{"start":2861.271,"end":2883.313,"text":"五分鐘 南院五分鐘好 那這個部分對我來講都是六分鐘對呀 都是六分鐘那很顯然這六分鐘裡面他們是羅浮宮是七分鐘之內偷了八件寶物那南北院六分鐘之內應該不至於有這麼嚴重好 我們記住了 這很重要演練非常的重要這是我本席第一題一定要特別提醒的第二個我想還是要來問一下有關玻璃門的問題"},{"start":2884.594,"end":2905.249,"text":"因为2022年已经被否决了2025年又再一次的被否决了那之前你们已经告诉我非常的尊重你们也没有那么一定要坚持但是呢现在很显然你们说内部讨论之后你们要再提计划所以院长你们的团队就是坚持不会放弃这个玻璃门的这样一个设计就对了"},{"start":2905.709,"end":2924.583,"text":"玻璃亭的這樣的設計就對了根文報告就是基本上來講的話採購是一個程序我們要讓採購的程序去完成另外一個當初原始設計的一個想法就是說在圖面上的最左邊的有一個小門紅色的小門那是故宮最原始的入口"},{"start":2925.143,"end":2940.429,"text":"那故宮最原始的入口的話原來的話這樣層層疊疊爬上去以後它經過一個拱門我瞭解我這樣只是說既然已經有這麼多這個台北的文化文資會都已經透過不同的考量而且還提出了安全結構的問題結果你們是不是因為合約被綁死了"},{"start":2945.131,"end":2972.722,"text":"所以说呢你说你不坚持可是现在在两次被否决之后你们又要再提计划所以我们只是很好奇到你的坚持的点到底在什么地方而且我必须要提出来你看交通很多人就特别提到的安全就会被质疑所以他会有这样的一个建议有很多学者专家有很多不同的批判我们后面下面看起来是一个示意图他几乎把故宫的本体说实在的已经遮住了一大半但是呢最重要的部分我们来看下面啊"},{"start":2974.102,"end":2999.79,"text":"这个交通部的观光署还把你们故宫列为观光票选人气的景点而且是一个非常大的这样一个故宫原始的一个模样那你现在把门面改掉要设立一个玻璃亭这就是为什么到目前为止不管安全或是大家认为的外观里面我觉得故宫到底在坚持什么难道是跟团队来说的话故宫没有任何的主导权吗一定要跟着你们当初所称的合约或者是所谓的设计团队里面来走吗"},{"start":3000.865,"end":3020.321,"text":"我想我跟委員報告過就是李晏是一個誠信因為他當初設計這個入口在世家廠商裡面得標得標的就是因為他有所以你們是因為被合約的關係嘛因為這個關係而得標所以你們現在必須要堅持這個部分然後被這麼多次的否決難道故宮沒有任何的主導權嗎"},{"start":3021.522,"end":3040.935,"text":"我想如果下一次的文資審議的話還要再下一次啊沒有共識的話對 沒有共識的話所以你要等到第三次就對了對 我們會改變計畫所以你就把整個工程耗在那邊等到第三次文資審議後你們再做最後的決定給最後的一搏就對了這是目前你的回應嗎也不是這個樣子因為工程本來就有一個進度好"},{"start":3041.215,"end":3055.772,"text":"我們就來看看吧不過院長我覺得故宮還是要拿出自己的一個想法既然這麼多的也是文資專家提出這樣的意見你好好還是來參看一下不過目前為止是得到要叫第三次我只是不曉得台北市我們絕對會尊重文資委員"},{"start":3056.252,"end":3085.42,"text":"我不想提文字委員什麼時候再來開會了然後接下來我們還是要問一下就是有關於人數的問題剛剛萬委員也特別提到了你顯然對於嘉義的這個人次的計算是有一些的想法的你很客氣人都尊重了好啦就像我們造勢人員我們明明算是這樣他們要喊幾萬我們也都尊重了這是我們官方的說法我也尊重了但是呢還是問一句話90週年你的目標是529那你去年說你100週年要350萬人次你目前有沒有辦法達標還差多少"},{"start":3085.68,"end":3097.53,"text":"公文報告我們南苑前天的話破100萬恭喜我覺得很好然後那個北苑的話昨天的話200萬所以現在300萬已經達標了好333 0000350萬耶350萬同仁的評估你現在只剩下你剩下距離年底還剩下一個多月好加油"},{"start":3104.736,"end":3125.427,"text":"跟委員報告就是說實際上有一些數據是沒有加進來譬如說我們推廣教育的活動好啦沒關係就像我說的數字我們都尊重好不好一萬都可以喊成五萬了你這個只差五十萬你要喊五百我都可以好不好只是要給我們一個很好的部分可以吧給我們一個數據你不管怎麼加就要加的合理就好確切實實的統計"},{"start":3126.408,"end":3145.848,"text":"好啦 事實統計 我知道故宮比較嚴謹啦所以剛剛萬委員問你的時候 你語帶保留啦你就是尊重 可是我看你的臉色我就知道故宮不可能只有到這個程度啦不可能 大方的講呢 我們故宮開大門走大路我們就是有辦法堂堂多家門面啦因為如果說以故宮目前兩百萬每次展覽展場的人潮的話基本上來講的話"},{"start":3146.749,"end":3170.798,"text":"大方的講嘛 你幹嘛每次都尊重到時候你新聞出來說故宮比不上嘉義 你看你就我告訴你最後一個我們來看看你們的前院長那個主席再給我一分鐘因為我覺得這必須要澄清前院長提出他們自己的論點自我英雄他們認為他把自己定位為改革型的CEO然後呢認為故宮是保守守舊的然後呢應該認為說要有KPI有SOP然後呢他認為應該在定位"},{"start":3172.839,"end":3195.092,"text":"院長別人講就算了你的前院長這樣來說我們的故宮然後我們看下面講的不專業抗拒改革心理因素不想離開看不起男院喜歡策展喜歡被舞台包圍故宮人員工作量很少然後呢幾乎每個人都準時下班前院長這樣說明你現在院長的故宮你的想法是什麼"},{"start":3196.763,"end":3218.092,"text":"我也只能講說你也只能尊重嗎我可以尊重但是同仁自己心裡有自己心裡的想法院長你不能夠只是尊重我當然再三強調就故宮除了文入重要之外所有的故宮人都是故宮的老人但是院長如果吳密茶院長他在當院長陣內他沒有辦法改革"},{"start":3218.732,"end":3244.193,"text":"然后呢离开之后来批评那我就要想说他在当位的时候呢难道后面有更高的势力让他在当院长的时候没有办法改革吗轮到他离开故宫的时候就必须要来大肆批评他当年在位的时候没有办法做到的事情吗有这种事吗你也还是尊重吗你要为故宫说一句话吗故宫难道没有SOP制度吗故宫难道看不起南院吗故宫都是准时诶 准时上下班有什么错然后呢有什么好策展喜欢舞台"},{"start":3245.274,"end":3258.646,"text":"故宮展的是文物有什麼好策展的這些的問題你難道能夠只是尊重嗎只是他那時候你是他的副院長嗎院長不是這樣啦我不是他的副院長好啦那你覺得對前院長的部分你還是只是尊重嗎"},{"start":3261.479,"end":3275.738,"text":"個人的看法的話我還是可以尊重但是我覺得替故宮的同仁打抱不平好 我也覺得因為我本來要稱讚你的不是只有尊重而已因為你特別講那一句話不是只有文物而是故宮人"},{"start":3276.238,"end":3302.812,"text":"常年的故宫人累积的这个故宫人还有包括故宫资深的志工都是故宫真的是完全不能磨灭的一个非常棒的一个产物非常棒的一个文化上面的一个贡献我觉得院长你要给故宫人特别是老工人这样的一个尊重故宫绝对不允许前院长这样的部分当他们发现被这样子的一个有任何不适当的一个谬论我在谬论的时候"},{"start":3303.712,"end":3321.889,"text":"院長 你不能只有尊重你要挺身為故宮人講話特別是對於這些真的已經奉獻很多的人各位 各位報告我在百年宴慶的聯合開幕的字詞裡面有一半是對故宮人的肯定所以這已經表達故宮現在對故宮人的一個態度好"},{"start":3322.669,"end":3338.933,"text":"這點我給你肯定啊所以說我說這次我們有志一同沒有問題但是對於曾經當過你這個位置的人用這個方法來批評檢討故宮我個人認為你還是有必要以院長之姿真的為故宮再來講一句話好不好大家共同勉勵是謝謝柯之恩委員質詢院長請回座接下來請林沛翔委員質詢"},{"start":3355.578,"end":3382.192,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請蕭院長請蕭院長林委員早蕭院長辛苦了是我想大家對於最近這個有關博物館方面最大的新聞全世界最大的新聞就是在上個月10月19號的時候現在不是只有我關心我想剛剛柯市任委員甚至萬美林委員都很關心如果巴黎羅浮宮在短短8分鐘之內就被盜走價值高達31億新台幣的皇室珠寶"},{"start":3385.935,"end":3402.808,"text":"再加上說這幾年來好像我記得沒錯的話大英博物館也爆發出內部資深策展人長達十年的系統性的竊盜醜聞這樣的事情發生當然我們一向都以為說這種事情只會在好萊塢的電影上發生"},{"start":3403.709,"end":3422.789,"text":"但是既然發生了我們就要去了解說這個事情不能用事後補償或者受法律保障來說辭來去跟我們全國民來說明這樣是無法交代的那我們也要基於一個態度就是見不嫌失智型我們必須用全球頂級博物館剛剛發生過最壞的狀況來嚴格檢視故宮"},{"start":3426.192,"end":3453.397,"text":"那故宮最近這幾年積極推動國寶出境甚至將本院的證管之寶像是翠玉白菜送往捷克展出就算說我們有簽署所謂司法免扣押的條款我們有投保巨額保險之類的但是如果連羅浮宮這全世界當然故宮跟羅浮宮是一樣等級的博物館但是連羅浮宮都會有這個在嚴密的保安都會被專業的竊責一個攻破"},{"start":3453.797,"end":3468.474,"text":"那我们这个国宝呢它的历史跟文化价值是独一无二的这是无法用金钱赔偿的所以我想请问院长您要怎么样担保当翠玉白菜或肉形石在海外的时候不会变成下一个这种惊天泄暗的主角呢"},{"start":3470.745,"end":3486.819,"text":"跟委員報告就是國際文化交流有它的一定的一個慣例當然就是說故宮的文物出去那國外的文物其實也會到故宮來那整個國際屆展上面的一個標準作業程序"},{"start":3487.58,"end":3515.811,"text":"包括司法免扣押 包括整個路程的介護 然後包括管社展出空間的安全管理我想這是一個行之有年的一個制度我們當然因為這樣的事情發生的話 我們會加強故宮自警的檢討然後包括管社安全漏洞的一個檢視那另外的話 我們在11月17號也會進行南北縣的一個安全維護的演練那"},{"start":3517.455,"end":3540.115,"text":"故宮因為是國內的唯一的一個國土安全的一個單位所以這個部分如果安全防護的話我們是在國土安全署他們的一個相關的監督之下我們會做到最安全的防護院長我只是提議就是說因為不管是翠玉白菜 肉方石這些都是中華文化很"},{"start":3540.916,"end":3563.961,"text":"珍貴的文化遺產那能不能有機會就是說我們這種鎮館之寶的核心文物盡量不要以出館為原則呢有沒有這個機會我想跟委員報告一下故宮的話文物有分一些等級譬如說像國寶重要古物的話出國的話當然我們會有一個最嚴謹的那另外現場文物的話基本上來講是不出國"},{"start":3564.861,"end":3584.786,"text":"那以這一次的情況的話當然我們未來對故宮文路出國會有更嚴謹的一個考量跟評估是不是會翠白菜我也講過翠白菜是不是有機會再出國的話我自己也沒有辦法保證所以這個部分的話我想我們會用更嚴謹的態度來評估"},{"start":3586.787,"end":3604.619,"text":"好 那我們先來談另外一個問題就是我們剛剛講到故宮南院嘛那其實我們也我從資料上面看到其實某個程度我會覺得非常的可惜我也不知道應該要是要向誰作出檢討但是很明顯的故宮南院有點空洞化有一個空洞化的狀況"},{"start":3605.459,"end":3624.551,"text":"所謂故宮南院空洞化就是說故宮南院遊客入園但是沒有入館那這是凸顯的說我們南院其實過度依賴所謂水舞 無人機一般這種一次性的活動而非充實展覽的本身我這邊手上拿到的資料是到最新到今年今年8月的統計資料"},{"start":3625.592,"end":3650.381,"text":"在南館總參觀數將近78萬人次中間真正進入展廳的只有不到39萬人次也就是說跟委員講這個數據不對因為事實上到前天是100萬對 那有多少人進入展廳延期的人數通通不記錄所以這個數字的話是有點落差因為延期通通不記錄"},{"start":3651.881,"end":3668.526,"text":"我是認為說如果說我們南苑假設說我們園區的人數不記錄的話那為什麼我們上面查到的資料會是這樣子呢對不算進去我們的那個參觀入館的人數因為我們現在統計的是入館的人數"},{"start":3670.1,"end":3683.808,"text":"那因為南苑的話當初建院的時候南苑的評估的話就一年的話平均大概一估70萬事實上現在平均百萬已經超越當初南苑建制的一個預期標準"},{"start":3685.769,"end":3707.78,"text":"所以說你認為南苑現在是OK的嗎你真的認為南苑現在是做得夠好的確可以跟故宮本身 本館一樣說變成一個國際吸引的點嗎南苑的知名度當然比較低可是南苑現在的展示跟教育推廣能量基本上來講的話一直在提升尤其是譬如說像這一次的江湖不失之美的話"},{"start":3709.381,"end":3727.686,"text":"受到很大的一個讚許當然大美不言也是可是大美不言的話是跟北苑南苑一起合辦的那江湖福祉之美的話我想那個人潮的話大家都可以看得到好 針對其實還有另外一塊就是我們當我們在看到因為本席有在看我們115年的預算書"},{"start":3730.747,"end":3757.37,"text":"當我們看到115年預算書的時候我們這邊看到有很多像是不管是AI智慧整合跨域整合永續發展之類這些很不錯的詞句但是當我們把交叉比對113年的決算書跟114年最新的因應數據的時候其實我會個人其實覺得蠻危險的危險的地方是在於說我們知道說我們所謂的預算是建立於所謂誠信跟效能上面我們要看到故宮提出來預算"},{"start":3758.131,"end":3773.171,"text":"我們希望故宮能夠執行我們期待故宮能夠照著我們提供預算書去針對這每一件事情做出長足的進展但是我們其實某個程度上目前有一個系統性的失靈危機就是管理上面"},{"start":3774.152,"end":3791.898,"text":"這關於上面我們故宮的核心是文物跟數位文物安全跟數位資產但是老實說如果在115年裡面提出一個長達5年經費1.6億的打造AI智慧博物館但是我們這故宮也發現說就是有高階的國寶圖檔外流"},{"start":3793.979,"end":3816.129,"text":"那監察院也提出糾正了那調查結果也證實這不是什麼高明的駭客攻擊是承辦人員不該將高階土檔上傳是對外可提供的伺服劑那最後面故宮對於這件重大文資事故我們最終的懲處是申戒然後這個人離職請問一下如果連最基本的資安紀律都無法落實的話"},{"start":3816.929,"end":3840.168,"text":"立法院應該核准這1.6億讓您去建置一個更龐大的輸入資料庫嗎您提出了什麼具體性的系統性改革保證這些AI ready的資料不會再被不當上傳呢跟委員簡單講就是我們把那個管理者跟使用分離就是說一般來講的話未來的話外界的話是沒有辦法進入我們的資料庫"},{"start":3841.089,"end":3860.207,"text":"那他可以讀取到的只是我們open data就是600萬畫素跟100萬畫素那高階的圖檔的話我們就是把它分流就是那個管理分流我剛講的是說其實是內部人員出這個操作上內部人員我剛講內部人員的話那怎麼樣去避免未來這樣的事情呢"},{"start":3860.567,"end":3880.583,"text":"內部人員的話基本上來講的話他只能在內部工作區工作他不能把資料PO到外部的網站外部網站的話是另外的管理所以把兩邊的管理人分流就是好像出納跟會計一樣會計不能管錢然後出納管錢不管帳就是把它做分流"},{"start":3881.468,"end":3908.403,"text":"老實說我們相信故宮的專業我們也知道故宮很寶貴但是如果像這樣的算低階的牧師這種低階的牧師出來的時候同仁有這樣的叔叔是沒有錯的這的確是事實而且我們也承接了但至於所謂的外流的資料裡面我們兩年的檢視實際上這些高階的土島沒有外流現在在淘寶 過去在淘寶的話都是我們open data的資料"},{"start":3909.143,"end":3922.669,"text":"其實我們已經41萬筆open data了所以外面流通的都是那些資料並沒有高階圖檔好 那我希望現在剛剛院長講的有關出納跟會計這邊這樣的未來的資訊邏輯希望能夠更明確希望像這件事情可以避免再發生是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝林佩祥委員質詢院長請回座"},{"start":3936.462,"end":3950.416,"text":"接下來請劉書斌召委質詢好有請校院長請校院長劉委員早"},{"start":3955.148,"end":3982.023,"text":"好 院長早那今天我首先要恭喜因為故宮的參與了大阪市博衛臺灣館的參展那使得它臺灣館成為最受歡迎的一個場館之一那我也特別是故宮的參與當中就是包括的是AI藝廊這邊特別講到的是有這個城市畫卷的一個參展那我自己升到"},{"start":3983.584,"end":4007.304,"text":"台灣館的時候就發覺到說關於陳承波的這樣子一系列關於台灣城市的畫展這邊透過AI技術是非常好那當然因為大部分去參與的都是日本人我就想說有沒有機會把大阪市博具AI技術的這個城市畫卷的產品到故宮來展示並設立長色展呢有沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":4008.912,"end":4028.178,"text":"跟委員報告因為當然就是首先講說給那個什麼大阪市府給故宮這個機會那雖然故宮沒有落名可是我們還是很用心不只是用故宮自己的收藏品我們也把台灣前輩畫家的作品一起共同"},{"start":4028.678,"end":4040.892,"text":"用一個生成式的方式然後去把它融合所以這個展覽結束之後的話第一個我們會回到故宮博物院因為未來的話南院會有一個是到南院啊"},{"start":4041.969,"end":4062.359,"text":"是放到南院去嗎我說未來南院的話會有一個長色性的展示館那這個會回到北院另外的話那個也會到新竹美術館現在已經在洽談中就是說我們希望把這樣的一個公園樂的技術對把這樣的一個展示然後可以在台灣做更多的推廣跟行回"},{"start":4062.639,"end":4084.619,"text":"好 謝謝當然我們下面要討論也是關於羅浮宮的事情不過我就簡短在前面的委員的基礎上面去進行包括了是幾分鐘到警察局這些消息都沒有問題但是它因為棄案的發生的原因是在區域裡面唯一監視器的面向西方還包括是高價的這樣子的一個產品高價的一個藏品"},{"start":4086.861,"end":4115.694,"text":"那想要問的是故宮的話如果以五件包括是翠玉白菜 肉形石 毛公鼎西山行旅圖跟這個早春圖五項來說的話大概估計是多少當然你會說是無價但是我們希望說如果當初之前也不知道說包括是這個瑪麗皇后的這個皇后的這個駕駛雙十雄真是多少錢可是這個地方如果初步估價的話大概會覺得是可能上到多少的錢可以估計一下嗎"},{"start":4117.897,"end":4142.644,"text":"呃基本上故宮博物院並沒有進行這樣的一個文物價值的總估價因為因為文物的類向很多那這個價值的話難以研究所以並沒有並沒有做這樣的一個估價但是我想當然不是說你去估計之後就會引來的很多的什麼竊賊啊然後未來去進行但是我想你們本身自己應該有些估價吧因為到時候包括像"},{"start":4143.844,"end":4172.463,"text":"在北京的故宮當中有一些派被投出去但是我希望是這個事情不是要發生但是最好在國內自己本身自己有些估價是一個是應該是合理的這些部分萬一真的發生到一個被偷竊的情形那就是一個大的問題那另外一個問題包括的是有沒有做定期的你們現在都有些監視器的可是現在這個包括故宮羅浮宮也發生說就是他有監視器可是他的方向可能是被人為的就轉向了或什麼之類的這樣子沒有定期的再去做一個安全的檢視"},{"start":4174.204,"end":4192.916,"text":"故宮的監控是24小時的人力在維映所以所有的監視器的話都維持正常的狀態如果說有任何的一個誤動的話我們都會發覺然後另外的話每個月也都會進行那個校正"},{"start":4193.51,"end":4215.477,"text":"好那另外的剛才您也說到包括是有沒有說定期的一個做這個災防演練等等的因為我們看到是我自己本身在東吳大學就看到說它事實上旁邊有一個加油站那當然它因為故宮它是一個坡地但是我覺得這個包括的是有關於這個火災的這種演練等等的是不是有定期在做演練"},{"start":4217.235,"end":4238.824,"text":"故宮定期的話就是轄區的消防隊的話他們會來進行督導演練所以每年的話南北院的話基本上至少都有兩次的演練至少都有兩次好那另外包括的是看到之前的吳密茶的院長他有提到說因為現在進行到的是一個全民的這個任性的接軌那"},{"start":4239.805,"end":4261.286,"text":"關於說他當初有被問到2022年的時候問到說如果發生緊急災變的時候呢有現在可能都有戰爭的這種可能性那當初吳密朝院長他是說呢如果要包括打包疏散這些計畫等等的他要跟國家安全單位去了解那目前有針對這部分您接任之後有沒有更後續的發展"},{"start":4262.266,"end":4284.38,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們是國家基礎安全設施所以我們對文物的撤離的話有制定了6小時24小時7天14天30天的疏散文物然後列車包裝然後包括所需的動員到哪裡去有沒有一定要把打包離開有這個打算嗎"},{"start":4288.483,"end":4300.432,"text":"原則上是從展場或是南院北院我們視情況故宮從來都沒有把紋路搬離別的地方的想法因為在台灣還找不到比故宮更安全的庫房"},{"start":4301.192,"end":4325.285,"text":"好 我們希望也不要發生這樣有戰爭甚至說如果發生當然不要發生但是有相關的議題的時候要處理掉那另外包括的是這個故宮的這樣的今年是這個故宮百年包括的是人數這一部分應該也是有一些我們剛才看到的是說故宮現在在南院已經達到了那北院的話還差50萬那我們現在希望說大概剩下一個半月能夠達到"},{"start":4326.626,"end":4352.214,"text":"預期未來的部分因為我們故宮曾經在過去的時候達到有八九百萬的人次的這樣的一個參觀人數那未來你們估計明年的話大概多少人會來因為現在變預算了嘛對不對跟委員報告明年的話當然總參觀人數的話我的設定還是350萬因為今年是百年宴慶的人會多一點那明年350萬的話我希望可以維持這樣的一個能量"},{"start":4352.714,"end":4358.38,"text":"那一個故宮基本上來講有什麼亮點嗎有什麼預計有什麼展展演是亮點然後還犧牲到350萬嗎"},{"start":4361.454,"end":4386.129,"text":"百年宴慶就很多亮點不是 明年的明年的對 明年的的話展覽我們都在規劃之中但是跟委員報告一下就是說故宮的參觀人數的話它是跟境外的入境人數會有小漲因為平均的話過去我的統計平均的話大概100個人的話有10個人在到故宮來看起來的話1%不多可是在全世界的博物館的話"},{"start":4387.321,"end":4404.762,"text":"沒有人有這樣的一個情況到法國的人不可能十分之一到了武宮到英國的人不可能十分之一到大英博物館所以這故宮來講的話它在統計上來講的話是一個很突出的一個狀態表示故宮在台灣的話受到人家的喜愛的一個程度"},{"start":4405.287,"end":4425.23,"text":"好那再詢問一個問題因為已經也出現到這次到捷克去做參展去展覽是非常好那請問一下當初在捷克的展覽當中有沒有製成這種在這邊展覽的商品然後在現場販售然後它的銷售成績是如何這部分是我們一個國際行銷非常重要的一個點"},{"start":4427.432,"end":4455.385,"text":"捷克跟農展的話我們並沒有特別做那個授權文物的銷售因為授權文物的銷售的話基本上來講在國外的話是要另外去談一個版權所以並沒有去做這個部分的規劃所以那展期有大概幾個月吧三個月三個月那這版權談起來事實上要耗日礦日廢時還是說它其實效應效應不太好"},{"start":4457.029,"end":4469.184,"text":"一般來講的話如果有特別規劃文創商品的話都是透過一個商業或是代理機制去處理管對管的交流的話一般來講比較少有去做文創商品的開發"},{"start":4471.437,"end":4494.789,"text":"那這樣實在蠻可惜可是應該有很多人很多人詢問說應該要有這樣的一個產品文創產品的在部分的一個購買的機會吧我們更希望說因為這個展覽讓歐洲的民眾可以了解故宮然後到故宮來這邊提貨我想這是一個更好的一個機會好那所以你們都有留下這樣子的一個回來到台灣的這樣子的一個這種旅遊的計畫的這種資訊到對方去是"},{"start":4500.219,"end":4518.724,"text":"好 那個未來的話當然我們會評估如果有機會再到國外去的話是不是事先可以去做規劃文創商品的生產對 這個文創商品事實上是需要的好 我們當然也是希望說透過故宮的一個外交讓我們台灣的這個公眾外交能夠達到更多的來提升我們的外交處境好 謝謝謝謝劉書斌交委質詢 院長請回座接下來請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":4531.564,"end":4532.486,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請院長請蕭院長羅委員長"},{"start":4539.824,"end":4567.853,"text":"好 院長今天看你們的業務報告這裡面有提到有關於辦理校園大使的計劃管校合作還有教育部青年發展署的大專生工部門的見習計劃還有青少年的導覽員計劃等青年的一個行銷活動我有幾個問題想跟你請問一下院長請問學生如果去故宮當志工大多做哪些工作志工的話"},{"start":4570.285,"end":4593.607,"text":"一般来讲的话就做导览学生的志工他基本上来讲的话是一个见习的一个学习的过程我们会把它当作是一个示范的演练可是真正上线的话以学生来讲的话就是大概还没有办法所以基本上就是做导览员吗是那请问一下学生如果去故宫实习"},{"start":4594.608,"end":4613.747,"text":"又做哪些工作實習根據不同的工作單位譬如說如果他是修護的實習的話他在就修護室如果是他策展的話跟著策展的同仁教推的話跟著教推的同仁他要根據他們申請實習的項目去分配單位"},{"start":4614.588,"end":4638.176,"text":"好那本期想再談一個看似是小事情喔但是卻有長遠的一個大問題就是故宮的學生實習的制度故宮到底是找實習生還是找志工要先想清楚這個問題我想請問一下喔院長你知道依據故宮訂定的學生實習業務管理要點"},{"start":4639.639,"end":4666.92,"text":"院方明文規定以學習為目的不提供薪資及其他的津貼報酬僅在專案申請的情況之下才能夠合計相關的外縣市的交通住宿費也就是說多數的實習生在故宮全程實習一個月甚至兩個月都沒有任何的補助本席在社群媒體看到學生反應他們下的註解是台灣人就是奴"},{"start":4668.103,"end":4692.771,"text":"院長你認同學生在故宮貼上這樣子的一個標籤嗎我覺得實習生有實習生的一個制度這個制度由來已久我過去在油管擔任館長的時候其實這個制度的話都是國內包括文化部包括教育部的一個實習制度都是一樣的你有看到這個圖片嗎麻煩你看一下"},{"start":4693.736,"end":4719.515,"text":"同仁有傳給我 我看過了好 我想因為勞動的法規一直在變而面對勞動權益的一個保障不斷精進就勞動部的立場是不是勞工要不要給付薪資認定在於有沒有指揮 監督 分派工作以及去年我還提出了中研院政治所違反勞動法規因為他的助理薪資未達4萬卻沒有公開的一個揭示"},{"start":4720.456,"end":4740.848,"text":"只写着依本院讲注学金的知己要点这已经违反了救福法的一个规定所以在故宫的学生实习的业务管理要点第七点就已经写到有实习项目的指派督导及考核各实习单位依全责管理办理"},{"start":4741.548,"end":4765.217,"text":"所以他就是有實際從事一些工作而不是站在那邊看看就好那我想學生在故宮的時期故宮會不會幫學生投勞保或者是紙保保險的部分的話故宮會處理是所以就是會有紙保是嗎不好意思您可以回應一下嗎一般保險就是"},{"start":4766.67,"end":4781.746,"text":"只有投保 一般保險對 因為他沒有領我們的薪資所以沒有辦法做職業保險好 那如果他發生了相關的一些災害比如說職業災害基本上來講的話 我們的因為你不認定他是職業嘛對 我們的一般保險都可以Cover"},{"start":4782.403,"end":4796.995,"text":"好那我想喔在這樣的情況之下第8點雖然規定專案申請可以只付外縣市的一個交通住宿費請問院長過去3年內實際有多少單位提出專案補助補助的比例跟金額各位多少"},{"start":4799.426,"end":4819.975,"text":"沒有所以是不是因為程序的繁瑣導致這項規定形同就是只有劇文還是大家都非常有愛都不願意申請我還是跟委員報告一下因為實習生的制度的話是所有的博物館包括國外的博物館的話有這樣的一個制度"},{"start":4820.595,"end":4839.084,"text":"是那他跟建教合作不一樣建教合作的話就是基本上來講的話就是你去名義上是實習但是實際上是有薪水的那至於說這樣的一個制度要不要改變的話那會牽涉到所有的博物館不是故宮自己擔心就是說好我付給他薪水因為"},{"start":4839.764,"end":4855.07,"text":"同樣情況的話 志工就專業的志工的話在各個館也有不同的情況有的館可以付籌碼費100塊有的館可以提供便當然後有的館什麼都沒有提供那只是給他交易信任 這都有"},{"start":4856.803,"end":4869.031,"text":"但是都是要在一個規範下去進行當然當然都要有規範下我想這些學生是真正參與到文化現場那為故宮也是貢獻他們的熱情跟專業您認為這樣的實習辦法會有同學願意來實習嗎"},{"start":4873.668,"end":4892.047,"text":"也是非常強非常強烈因為故宮是一個非常吸引人的地方因為故宮真的有值得學習的一個地方真的是一個學習的地方因為我們不願意把那個實習生當作替代人力當作勞工而是說我們希望說他們參與故宮的一個"},{"start":4893.048,"end":4914.681,"text":"參與文化 學習文化並且能夠提升一些經驗但是我要講的是說今天我具體的跟您做一個探討我們沒有任何的批評但是我希望在探討當中能夠有所大家一起來檢討現行的制度是不是可以更好所以是否可以檢討修正現行的要點建立文化實習的支持制度"},{"start":4916.341,"end":4932.93,"text":"讓實習生能夠獲得基本的交通餐費補貼或保險不僅符合教育目的更展現國家對文化人才的重視尊重如果我們連正在學習連願意走進博物館的年輕人都不願意給予一些支持我想未來會不會"},{"start":4934.991,"end":4955.677,"text":"比较没办法有更多的年轻人愿意投入这一个行业或者是愿意去走进故宫我们在讲的是未来我知道刚刚我是问过你你说很多年轻人愿意走进故宫那现在来说应该是OK对 我跟委员报告我们愿意来研议因为实习生的制度的话牵涉到教育部"},{"start":4956.337,"end":4975.534,"text":"是就是因為我們的牽動的話會影響到教育部影響到其他的情況如果說故宮開始付薪水的話所有人都來故宮然後所有的其他的實習包括地方博物館的話都會沒有實習生因為他們沒有發薪水我知道所以我要講的是說我剛所說的不是說給予薪資"},{"start":4977.916,"end":5006.486,"text":"基本的交通餐費補貼或者是剛剛說的你們有做的一般的保險這個部分能不能列入到這個所謂的我們建立文化實習的一個支持制度我希望說他是一個為了後面的50年再來建制的一個要點因為我要講的是現在故宮一樣在21世紀保有他的文化吸引更多的年輕人來到這邊實習那後面的50年呢會不會因為科技的進步讓年輕人開始"},{"start":5007.466,"end":5031.418,"text":"不願意去踏入歷史不願意踏入去文化有需要這樣子的一個跟委員報告我們會跟教育部來研商因為我們也不希望說因為故宮的作動然後影響到其他的一個實習的一個當全部人都只湧入到故宮的時候我們也會擔憂所以我說的是不是在這樣子的一個狀況之下取得一個平衡只是支持而不是給予一個薪資這部分我希望我們會後再繼續的討論是 我們會來研議好 謝謝"},{"start":5036.416,"end":5042.319,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員質詢 院長請回座接下來請林益錦委員質詢謝主席 有請蕭院長林委員長"},{"start":5056.537,"end":5069.524,"text":"院長早今年是故宮的百年院慶同時當然也是我們故宮北院院區的60歲生日那60年歷經這個數次的這個擴建故宮才成為今天這樣的樣子"},{"start":5074.327,"end":5103.767,"text":"那實際上光是面對這個借林三十年以上的建築我們就要必須付出額外的心力來維護整修更何況是一個六十年的這個具有這個文化就典藏全人類的這個文化資產的這個故宮博物院所以我想院長因為您待過很多的博物院服務過那我想你對博物館的這個建築一定有相當的了解"},{"start":5104.407,"end":5128.094,"text":"所以故宮北越這個建築那麼的老舊那像剛剛我提到的經過數次的擴建它新舊建築間都會有一些流生縮縫或者是說多年使用還有地震的影響那這個生縮縫它那個防水的措施以及它那個樓板部位的這個防水層它就會不同程度的損壞所以"},{"start":5130.135,"end":5136.58,"text":"絕對無法去根絕漏水的問題所以我們來看看故宮建物過往一些不堪使用的紀錄2015年鎮館電梯"},{"start":5141.215,"end":5169.248,"text":"鎮管的電梯坑滲水後來又遇到風災鎮管的三樓也漏水2017年全台的豪雨鎮管嚴重的漏水我們在新故宮第三次計畫修訂本當中甚至有提到鎮管的耐震的結構已達50年的使用年限文物典藏庫防耐震的不足對文物的典藏產生嚴重的威脅"},{"start":5170.569,"end":5198.7,"text":"我要請教說那這些漏水問題以及這個耐震的疑慮那我們今年有哪些的改善那是否現在還有漏水的事件那十年期的故宮計畫已經編了第九年的經費那請問院長評估至今到底完成度到今年至今的完成度有幾成那未來我們還有怎麼樣的執行策略 院長"},{"start":5200.349,"end":5217.964,"text":"跟委員報告 漏水的問題是因為因為葉導剛採訪我的時候我講我看他說你看那個那個建物那邊的那個塑膠布因為會漏水所以有一些可以抓漏的可以處理的部分我們都"},{"start":5220.246,"end":5246.228,"text":"時時刻刻只要有下雨的話我們就會去檢視有沒有漏水點但是有一些部分的話就是沒有辦法因為它要經過一段時間的下雨然後那個水泥層飽和度高的時候它就會滲漏這個沒有辦法去找出一個根源所以如果說真的要做的話就要把那個屋頂層的那個防水層slab通通打掉重新做對 就是要大修"},{"start":5247.029,"end":5269.166,"text":"所以這個就是放到我們的新故宮計畫的政管整建的工程裡面那以新故宮計畫來講的話它每年的達成率的話都超過9成到達9成5以它的達成率以目前來講的話超過5成左右就整個新故宮計畫因為它有三個子計畫很難去講"},{"start":5271.247,"end":5287.381,"text":"但是如果通称的话大概如果讲的话我说新故宫计划的话完成率的话应该是五成因为南院的国宝馆的话大概四成六四成八然后北院这边的话基本上来讲的话大概六成左右好"},{"start":5288.041,"end":5306.356,"text":"那我想請院長責成這個業務單位是不是列一個表單就是想載這個故宮北院軟硬體設施需要更新修整的項目交給本辦那同時我想也要給教文委員會所有的委員那因為我們再來這個會期又是預算會期"},{"start":5307.677,"end":5331.995,"text":"無論是院長您還是說整個整體我們教育文化委員會的委員我們都必須要很清楚的知道存放且展覽重要文物的故宮它究竟有哪些地方不堪使用真的需要經費來幫忙那我們朝野立委會不分黨派全手一起來支持這樣的改革所以是不是一週內可以來把這個表單給我們"},{"start":5332.816,"end":5346.972,"text":"美國委員辦公室 跟委員報告沒有問題 必要時因為那個工程的整建的話是我們黃務院長來主政也可能請黃務院長跟委員這邊做一個說明或是辦一個訪視都可以 好OK"},{"start":5347.773,"end":5368.079,"text":"那再來想要請教這個院長是說因為近年其實這個颱風季這樣子這個強降雨那遇到這個故宮其實就是用塑膠布這種陽春的方式來防滲水那可見故宮北院確實大整修真的很急迫"},{"start":5369.039,"end":5388.052,"text":"那以前這個陳其南院長主政的時候他有提出過這個北院全面整修三年讓文物遷移到南院展出的這個規劃可是當初這樣的一個想法有遭受到立法院或社會各界的一些壓力跟批評"},{"start":5389.053,"end":5417.572,"text":"那如今我想是蕭院長你來主政我本期是希望你能勇敢承擔下來就是說今年5月在南院二館的這個上樑點底下院長你就有表示說二館完工後那南院的樓地板面積就會跟北院相當那未來北院如果進行整修的話那南院就可以擔負起這個文物展出的任務所以我想要請院長說明的是說"},{"start":5419.094,"end":5431.347,"text":"針對故宮北院的全面整修那時間點會落在什麼時候那規模跟策略跟陳其南院長的計畫會有哪些不同"},{"start":5434.465,"end":5463.087,"text":"跟委員報告因為時空環境不同因為現在的當然沒有錯就新故宮計畫的整個進程的話就是說我自己跟同仁在討論上面的話就是有一些節奏上的要思考的面向就現在的故宮的第二展覽館已經開館了但是第二展覽館的能量是沒有辦法完全承擔故宮政館目前的能量"},{"start":5463.647,"end":5485.122,"text":"所以要在故宮南院二館完成之後那才有可能把整個所有故宮展示的能量做一個轉移是所以在故宮正館整修的時候基本上來講二館還是會開跟過去不一樣因為過去的話正館整修的話就等於北院都沒有產卵那現在的話我們"},{"start":5485.902,"end":5514.377,"text":"先除了一個二管所以故宮正管整修的時候二管還是會正常營運那另外的話就是更大的能量會放在南院那南院以原來的規劃的話在明年的話整個土造會完成然後之後的話我們進行室內專修所以這個時間點的話如果我現在的有時候也是技術上的問題就是當然是"},{"start":5515.217,"end":5535.046,"text":"如果現在政管故宮政管馬上整修的話那我的展示能量的話馬上消減可是南院的二管還沒有好過南院二管完成之後就你的北院其實就可以政管來整修所以它會有一個節奏性的調整那當然就是說所以你有打算就是未來政管是來大整修的"},{"start":5536.126,"end":5559.817,"text":"本來新故宮計畫就包括鎮館的整修鎮館的整修並不是為了只是做入口亭而是說它整個那個建築結構的整修然後包括防水包括它的室內空間更新因為60年的博物館基本上來講跟國外新的博物館比的話那個地板都有顯得老舊了包括有人在質疑故宮的廁所說什麼"},{"start":5562.844,"end":5589.43,"text":"不太漂亮或是車水馬桶的話就是舊式的這個東西的話我們都必須要重新那我再利用一點時間來跟您探討就是故宮北院的參觀的動線的問題北院現在的現有的這個側邊道路其實並非正規的路線而是所謂的施工道路就是說公車 汽車長期都走這條路來進出可是"},{"start":5592.651,"end":5608.309,"text":"可是故宮至今它欠缺一個統一的中央入口那動線上看起來也是如同這個進建皇帝寶物班就是說你要求民眾一路爬樓梯那沒看到文物就滿身汗啦"},{"start":5608.849,"end":5625.458,"text":"那當然現在在側邊有加設一段號稱無障礙的這個林蔭步道可是你如果遇到下雨恐怕又溼滑喔那最終民眾還是會去爬樓梯或穿越車道才能進入鎮館所以不是完整的那個所謂無障礙的設計"},{"start":5626.599,"end":5652.17,"text":"所以想要請院委員長就故宮的參觀動線來看符合一座現代化的這個博物館的基本要求看起來是沒有那在動輒被扣上去中國化這種帽子的情況之下我想你一定想好好做事那就您這個博物館職人的這個位置你有什麼樣的改革解方跟委員報告其實故宮的"},{"start":5653.74,"end":5674.338,"text":"找出一個便捷的那個參觀的動線在大故宮計畫的時候曾經是考量考量從現在的天下圍攻的那個大門然後做一個地下的連通到過去到鎮館的地下室但是這個在大故宮計畫的時候也引發很大的爭議所以最後這個案子的話完全被否決"},{"start":5675.499,"end":5693.09,"text":"那後來新故宮計畫的話我們就不動中軸線而是在現在的第二展覽館圖書文獻大樓那邊從Y28的捷運站然後從現在慈善路的公車站做一個斜坡的無障礙的連通道上去這個部分的話是台北市的"},{"start":5695.419,"end":5708.746,"text":"都發局已經審過了那我們現在在夜覽的階段就花包 準備要花包所以這個部分的話未來的話就可以從至善路然後從原來的公車亭那邊然後直接坐電扶梯上去"},{"start":5710.171,"end":5726.205,"text":"或是從Y28的捷運站直接從捷運站這邊連通上去所以這個部分的話就可以把那個立體跟平面的做一個接軌那至於中間的入口亭的話其實我們原想就是恢復原來的故宮最傳統的大鴻門的"},{"start":5728.487,"end":5740.635,"text":"包括中央博物院國立故宮博物院那個門可以變成是一個可以進出的門當然它現在不是一個主要的動線但是恢復它的一個原始的一個功能意向的話"},{"start":5742.236,"end":5762.273,"text":"這是我們去思考的但是因為這樣的話就變成說有多了一個建屋那另外的話也把一樓的大廳的屋頂推高但是因為這樣的話就牽涉到大家會認為說跟現在大家看到的形貌不一樣可是現在的形貌的話基本上來講的話也經過5次的修正也不是原來的形貌"},{"start":5763.113,"end":5778.549,"text":"所以這個部分的話我們還是會跟文字委員溝通那我也講說兩次審不過如果第三次審不過的話原則上我們就做一個明確的決定這個案子的話我們就會變更涉及好謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝林議員質詢院長先回座接下來請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":5798.885,"end":5802.896,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長請蕭院長郭院長好"},{"start":5807.401,"end":5831.957,"text":"院長好我想短短七分鐘巴黎羅浮宮發生的這個竊案剛剛有很多委員都很關心我們有看到其實台灣媒體也直接放在頭版但在頭版的下面作為教文委員會我們就非常高興看到有我們的故宮的一個靈屍竊的紀錄這個我想大家應該都非常榮耀就是我們保護了我們的國寶"},{"start":5832.958,"end":5846.2,"text":"但是仔細進去一看這個內容讓人非常的緊張為什麼呢他說為什麼我們75年維持零失竊紀錄呢有一個關鍵在我們故宮有四隻狗"},{"start":5847.382,"end":5874.788,"text":"四隻狗故宮編制了四名警犬晚上八點到凌晨四點互相輪班同時間兩隻警犬巡邏也就是說晚上人帶狗十二點以後就是狗帶人有時候警衛還會解開鏈子讓警犬當先鋒這個 顧院長應該有看到這個報導對不對我看您都微笑了媒體的報導基本上來講我不曉得是從哪裡聽來的"},{"start":5877.573,"end":5900.355,"text":"所以這個沒有經過故宮的同意啊這不是我們官方的所以你們到底有沒有這幾隻狗啊有有嘛所以那是甚麼有人洩漏資訊嗎所以這不實報導嗎也不是不實報導事實上我們有四隻狗可是四隻行險但是這個新聞的話並不是一個我們官方的新聞沒關係啦 院長我想喔"},{"start":5901.016,"end":5926.921,"text":"故宮一百一十四年度的預算北院安全管理維護四千四百萬南院五千萬兩個院區加起來將近是一億元結果故宮如果真的是守護安全的是四隻狗的話那是不是我們這個安全維護費變成我們要來討論警犬的飼養訓練這個費用四隻警犬要不然我們變四十隻故宮不要講七十五年七百五十年都不會有問題我想難道是這樣嗎"},{"start":5931.002,"end":5946.098,"text":"基本上來講的話過去在傳統就是說監控系統保全系統不夠完整的時代基本上來講透過警犬去做保安保全這是有的所以過去家家戶戶養狗"},{"start":5947.259,"end":5966.783,"text":"跟現在不一樣現在2025年嘛現在都是用科技化的監控系統狗都有機器狗了對吧所以我想故宮看到這個報導您說這個故宮不是只靠這四條狗你們有沒有發額外的新聞 消息 宣發讓大家知道不是這樣不然剛剛那個報導真的很像是邀請人家來測試這四條狗院長"},{"start":5970,"end":5991.156,"text":"你是不是澄清一下吧對不對沒關係我會後希望請故宮的同仁澄清一下不然這樣的報導院長看起來也不是很認可結果變成說讓大家有點誤會我覺得也不好這變成國際新聞還得了啊故宮75年鎮館的神獸竟然是四條狗"},{"start":5992.037,"end":6011.736,"text":"當然我想這可能是誤會我們很具體的來討論安全措施絕對不是這個樣子所謂的三層防護的話就外圍防護外圍防護的話就是除了狗之外的話當然我們有編制的警察然後我們有保全另外的話就是管轍的維護我們沒有"},{"start":6015.379,"end":6032.488,"text":"就是說無漏洞的一個監控系統大家無漏洞的話我盡量謝謝院長您在這裡講您可能還是要請同仁再多花一點力氣去向外去多做說明否則這個銅牆鐵壁只剩下四條口這個印象傳出去真的不太好沒關係"},{"start":6034.029,"end":6053.028,"text":"現在最主要的話是做那個什麼危險物件的一個嗅覺那這顯然你們的固工跟媒體之間的關係是要再更通暢的否則這樣的一個新聞我們覺得還是需要做多一點的這個額外後續的處理好不好那我們更具體的來討論"},{"start":6055.871,"end":6073.22,"text":"這個羅浮宮的師妾其實有要做一些模擬假設接下來要做一些模擬的訓練因為剛剛很多委員也有提到現在故宮北院南院正在千年神域跟萬年甲子也先感謝跟恭喜但是假設我們要做模擬演練會不會影響展期"},{"start":6075.321,"end":6100.757,"text":"模擬演練的話我們都在用休館跟晚上的時間來進行所以為什麼我們對那四條狗的新聞很緊張就是大家說只有四條狗現在又不能印象展旗現在有一個大好時機所以請故宮要趕快多做一點這個相關的訊息的轉達另外這一次的羅浮宮又可以看到法國警方甚至軍方迅速趕到現場假設我們先不管展旗的問題"},{"start":6101.477,"end":6124.398,"text":"之後不影響展期的情況去做模擬或者是演練請問院長警方甚至軍方有沒有在緊急狀況下協助故宮進行安全防護的機制我們跟管區跟分局還有跟那個憲兵隊就是所謂軍方的話我們是跟憲兵隊我們都有一個合作的簽署的一個"},{"start":6125.54,"end":6133.517,"text":"備忘錄他們都會來參與我們的協防那之後這個入侵演練是不是會一併納入軍警進行安全防護的測試呢"},{"start":6136.397,"end":6164.503,"text":"在軍警的部分的話基本上來講我們在國土安防的演練的時候軍警校都會參與現在是防盜現在是防盜演練防盜的話我們會同仁跟轄區好 評估一下然後因為你總不能假設真的是壞事發生了不能只靠狗去追對不對我們要大家一起來幫忙坑委員報告因為狗現在是暴獵物徵收然後巡邏然後甚至變成故宮的一個"},{"start":6166.723,"end":6190.371,"text":"可愛的神獸我們都認同啦但是那個新聞給人家一個不太安全的印象好不好這個請故宮要處理啦那另外這個剛剛提到安全評估這個您有表示啊要做這個不管是三層防護啦強化啦防爆玻璃啦安全評估什麼時候會進行什麼時候可以做升級項目的這個預估完成這個我們隨時都在進行每一次部長"},{"start":6190.831,"end":6205.603,"text":"那最新的一次會是在什麼時候我們在11月6號進行過今天下午會再一次演練10月10號會進行第二次演練17號的話會進行南北宴的一個前宴的演練"},{"start":6206.243,"end":6230.751,"text":"好 謝謝院長這個接下來真的是要請大家多多關注這個國寶真的是要靠各位來守護另外也和您討論故宮正在進行百年願慶我們非常關心熱門景點的狀態北市熱門景點的前十名第一名是西門町第二名台北101第三名松山文創園區"},{"start":6232.251,"end":6258.005,"text":"還有華山 台灣科學教育館甚至動物園等等我也很愛去故宮排在第十名造訪人次沒有突破百萬98萬院長 我覺得這個本席認為對故宮百年來講這有一點警訊這個院慶的活動都沒有辦法再造高潮高峰明年後年故宮還有沒有辦法再去有更多吸引人的亮點"},{"start":6259.793,"end":6280.669,"text":"有沒有跟委員報告因為今年的話我們一起的目標會達成沒有問題很好 院長那我打斷你我們已經幫你們整理了目前的這個一共到九月份事實上一月 三月 八月 九月這四個月份的外籍參訪人數是不如去年預期的"},{"start":6281.77,"end":6295.421,"text":"所以如果我們真的要來超越去年同期的KPI啊已經有一半是不達標囉我們百年生日啊結果我們的外賓來訪竟然還更低為什麼會這樣啊這個"},{"start":6298.694,"end":6317.607,"text":"故宮沒有深緻檢討嗎你說要會超越可是我們看到的45%的月份是甚至比去年還低現在是百年怨氣跟委員報告就是因為故宮外籍人士的參訪的話跟入境的人數消長是會有一個互動的關係我想這個理由"},{"start":6319.941,"end":6335.628,"text":"是 院長入境人口多的話那當然就是比例會比較高一點但是不好意思入境我們現在已經脫離COVID了這個入境的人口一直都還是有在增加所以我想已經不能再用這個入境人口的問題來比了"},{"start":6336.849,"end":6350.957,"text":"就算您刚刚有说十分之一的人都来故宫那就要增加我想我们手上有一本书这个百年故宫百化我想故宫这个院长也知道里面有访问你"},{"start":6352.658,"end":6378.338,"text":"對 很棒那裡面呢 你有說啊說您在訪談的時候說你是過渡期院長但是現在留下來了你覺得很高興我們也很替你高興啊但是裡面你有說啊你繼續坐在這個位置上你告訴太太說我想我是幸運的院長 您是幸運的啦我們都理解啊對故宮來講是幸運的嗎這樣子的人數你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":6379.704,"end":6399.684,"text":"還是是不是有人告訴你說哎呀 故宮啊做到剛好就好了啦這樣的人數我當然不滿意對嘛 百年宴慶耶每一個博物館 每一個空間都有它最合宜的容流人數所以故宮最適合人少一點您現在的意思是這樣嗎不是這個樣子好不好"},{"start":6401.265,"end":6428.139,"text":"這個院長我們還是一起來努力還有幾個議題談到這個展覽內容其實這本《故宮百話》野島剛先生所寫的院長是本書的受訪者之一您剛剛也知道裡面有說這是博物館專業的時代你本身也有藝術行政的專業背景專業的故宮由專業人來領導我們都非常感動以院長的背景應該十分了解策展人curator是一個正式的角色對吧"},{"start":6429.119,"end":6458.459,"text":"任務有構思展覽理念挑選藝術品作品運送展場設計行銷推廣預算甚至布展跟策展但是我們到這個參訪的時候我們想要了解一下說故宮是屬於這個二級機關應該是所有博物館裡面有最充足最落實專業分工的結果我們進一步去詢問說故宮到底有多少位專職策展人的時候院長您知道嗎"},{"start":6459.778,"end":6477.395,"text":"故宮的答覆竟然是零人竟然全部都是由公務員或教育任用的人來兼任柯委員報告這個邏輯思維不對因為所有的博物館都是這樣都是策展人的host curator的話都是自己的研究人員來擔任"},{"start":6480.054,"end":6504.017,"text":"會找外面的人但是本身都是研究人員研究人員的話可能是文物的研究人員可能是教育推廣的研究人員可能是修復的人員他都可能做都來你一邊又要修復一邊又要策展你一邊做行政一邊接待外賓也要策展我們甚至了解到策展人裡面有人一年光是一年就策劃六檔展覽"},{"start":6504.557,"end":6524.8,"text":"一邊還要做其他所有的事情典藏修護研究分析那你剛剛說所有的不好意思主席這個時間要給我一下因為這是人權的問題不要讓大家有這種血汗怨的感覺為什麼呢我們給大家看一下那個院長你剛剛說大家都這樣有嗎大家有都這樣嗎有專任的策展人"},{"start":6526.38,"end":6538.045,"text":"有全部都是用host嗎有全部都是用兼任嗎No現在又No了這個聘用專任的話專任策展人啊聘用專任就是自己裡面的管員"},{"start":6539.255,"end":6556.431,"text":"不是 這個管員他如果聘進來是策展人的話他就是主要專職策展他其他行政事務可以不用做那麼多跟委員報告如果一個策展人不用做研究他怎麼策展啊他有研究的背景啊什麼研究的背景"},{"start":6558.452,"end":6577.904,"text":"所以您是說所以院長您在這裡正式的懷疑這些策展人都不是專用專任我跟委員報告就是說外面的現代的美術館他很容易找一個策展人去策劃一個展覽這個展覽的話跟館內的展覽沒有關係對不起院長我還是要打斷你這是專任策展人"},{"start":6578.644,"end":6599.25,"text":"這是專任策展人我們這裡有一點我在國美館待過您現在已經離開了這樣的敘述方式不對我現在還對他們很清楚了解這樣的敘述方式不對因為專聘的專任就是館員院長其實我是來幫忙的"},{"start":6599.73,"end":6628.148,"text":"因為我們是真的有私下了解到其實真的有同仁的工作過重你們應該是有機會考慮專任策展人的角色這個部分我是希望院長承諾對於人力進行盤點對於缺乏人力的部分我們是不是不分黨派我們一起向行政院來爭取跟委員報告如果故宮裡面有一個專業策展人他只做策展"},{"start":6628.948,"end":6652.767,"text":"他不做研究 不做其他事情院長 我沒有這個意思喔我沒有這個意思喔院長 我沒有這個意思喔你們現在的是什麼他主要的工作是典藏 保存 修復研究 分析 衍生內容創意 加值 展覽 設計 觀眾服務學術交流 教育推廣 數位學習國際合作和其他有關事項以及配合業務需要辦理的行政業務相關活動發表職務有關是學術研究"},{"start":6655.729,"end":6685.195,"text":"至於他還要來協助專業策展我們講的是專任策展人他並非不能做其他的事是說他以策展為主要的專任院長我想我們不要在這裡做這樣子的一種文字上的我沒有那個意思所以不要誤會我好不好我希望院長可不可以兩週內提出故宮人力盤點的報告以書面方式提供給我們我們一起來爭取好不好"},{"start":6685.575,"end":6700.735,"text":"可以 這個部分的話我可以請我們館的研究人員他們去思考什麼樣是一個最好的方式至於說所謂的一個人一年策集展的話基本上來講的話那是協助策展"},{"start":6701.636,"end":6722.888,"text":"因為策展是一個團隊如果一個人策展的話基本上來講你要做一個展覽沒關係那你器物要找誰你書畫要找誰院長你文獻要找誰都是一個現在北院一共有42位南院有11位53位的研究人員都在輪流擔任策展者沒有錯那這些人的工作"},{"start":6723.348,"end":6751.485,"text":"我是希望具體提出希望故宮來討論一下當他們專心在策展的時候你總有一個主策展人吧你總有一個幾個主策展人嘛那你協助策展的人那平常的工作是不是能夠協調一下去減少他們的行政事務的負擔我想我們的任務是一致的我們要不只您幸福啊故宮也要幸福故宮的專業人員也要幸福這您同意吧"},{"start":6752.196,"end":6773.383,"text":"我同意我同意但是這樣的保護管運作機制的話其實全世界都有院長是不是委員有說你們盤點人力做一份報告給他辦公室你們再來討論說關於我們所有的人力部署應該做怎樣的調整好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝院長再麻煩謝謝謝謝葛珞駿委員院長請回座接下來請吳麗華委員質詢"},{"start":6788.922,"end":6791.407,"text":"謝謝主席有請蕭院長蕭院長抱歉有點亂的情形來"},{"start":6799.765,"end":6824.844,"text":"好 院長好大家都會提到台北故宮百年北京也是故宮百年新聞上我們有看到就是這一次的北京故宮百年其實也邀請了很多台灣的媒體前去做訪問特別我們看到聯合報它的報導是這麼寫著北京掏出壓箱寶來紀念故宮百年"},{"start":6825.644,"end":6852.657,"text":"活動敘事是強調中華文化正統那特別呢他們就是強調說跟中華民族命運修其與共那也特別呢有民眾對聯合報記者表達他相信台灣的故宮文物最終會回歸祖國北京故宮的前院長他說堅信台北故宮的文物遲早會到紫禁城展出現任的院長也"},{"start":6854.497,"end":6869.244,"text":"說南遷文物忠誠海峽兩岸故宮博物館好 重點它的策展區那個主題寫著遷台北反那我在想喔院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":6873.841,"end":6885.575,"text":"兩岸各自表述那你怎麼表述不管在政治上或是在國際場合上一直都是這樣故宮的文物當然主要來自"},{"start":6887.757,"end":6907.291,"text":"紫金城的舊廠這是事實沒有錯可是因為在合法掙錢中華民國國民政府合法掙錢的執政時代來到台灣現在這些文物都登記中華民國的財產很好這個是待無一役那現在故宮的工作因為這些文物到台灣來"},{"start":6908.552,"end":6931.084,"text":"100年故宮裡面75年在台灣跟台灣這片土地發生了很多連結那也是台灣的整個文化滋養的一部分所以這個部分的話我們還是會堅信就是博物館只要做好文物管理然後做文物展覽教育推廣研究的工作我想這是我們現在目前最重要的任務至於"},{"start":6932.338,"end":6960.138,"text":"北京故宮他們的講法我們就是聽聽就好好 那再請教一下院長您有沒有注意到中國有修訂他們的中華人民共和國文物保護法而且修訂之後是在今年的3月1號生效你對這部法有了解嗎我對對岸的法律並沒有太大的了解但是我知道有這個事情"},{"start":6960.851,"end":6990.3,"text":"那它的内容大概是说什么当然PPT都有写了对 它当然对所谓的流失境外的文物那这个会牵涉到一个合法性的问题就是流失的文物的话它当初是被盗卖或是被盗取或是透过一个不正当的手段行为去取得文物那要求归还的话基本上来讲的话这是他们自己认为他们的潜力"},{"start":6990.84,"end":7006.346,"text":"但是故宮的文物的話是在我剛講合法政府合法掙錢的時代遷移到台灣那時候中華人民共和國還沒有成立所以基本上來講那北京故宮會去追討嗎我是說台北故宮會去追討北京故宮文物嗎"},{"start":7007.507,"end":7028.665,"text":"我們也沒有辦法做這樣的一個動作因為基本上來講管轄錢的問題我們現在也沒有辦法去透過所謂的國際法庭去追討北京故宮的文物所以北京故宮的話基本上來講的話也沒有辦法所謂的說去認定台灣的這些文物是他們的"},{"start":7029.725,"end":7045.416,"text":"那看起來故宮它其實已經成為統戰的一環所以呢我們在這個地方就是特別要提醒強調的就是我們台北故宮有什麼樣的一個論述這個很重要"},{"start":7046.016,"end":7066.81,"text":"那在這裡呢其實過去的八年歐美他們其實也通過了很多的實際行動逐步向外國就是去歸還那些非法走私戰爭掠奪的文物了舉個例子像去年是牡丹社事件的150週年所以我們在前幾年呢有特別去幫忙"},{"start":7067.791,"end":7084.658,"text":"在愛丁堡的牡丹社遺骨的返還目前也安置在我們台灣史前館的南科考古館我想院長應該了解這件事情在這裡就是特別要提到畢竟我們的台北故宮已經100年"},{"start":7086.019,"end":7115.339,"text":"那我覺得要創造自己的敘事自己的史觀然後要跟對岸的要做出區隔要有更多的一個本土的內容所以呢我看到像明年的2月故宮說要攜手英國國家學術研究院以文化遺產的視角探討亞洲全球的秩序所以是講14到19世紀明清時期的東亞國際外交那我很想了解"},{"start":7116.742,"end":7120.496,"text":"這個內容有沒有跟什麼有關跟我們台灣本土有關"},{"start":7123.474,"end":7147.935,"text":"這是一個英國國家學術院的研究計畫那當然全球召集計畫是第一第一個獲得那個獎助的一個計畫那這個計畫的話它的主持人的話是由國外的學者來主導那故宮當然有一位同仁參與基本上來講的話他做一個學術上的研究雖然是在故宮這邊"},{"start":7150.818,"end":7158.766,"text":"這個禮拜幾辦那個閉門的會議但基本上來講的話是一個協助研究跟故宮並沒有直接的一個關聯"},{"start":7160.203,"end":7186.014,"text":"所以這個完全跟故宮沒有關係不能講沒有關係因為當然討論到整個東亞的DN政治的話當然會討論到中國討論到韓國討論到日本討論到台灣這是必然的但是這是一個獨立的研究其實我們從頭開始講就是一直在強調我們故宮要有很重要的一個本土論述"},{"start":7187.742,"end":7209.199,"text":"那即便是辦理這樣的一個活動如果我們都沒有辦法去產生自己的一個本土論述特別假設他講的是東亞國際外交那牡丹社事件是我們台灣第一個國際事件也是影響台灣命運很重要的一個事件那如果在這個時候"},{"start":7210.08,"end":7224.04,"text":"他都沒有辦法被拿出來講沒有辦法被論述那我不太理解我們故宮為什麼要在南院去推出這樣的展跟委員報告這個展覽當然我講說是由英國的"},{"start":7225.482,"end":7248.369,"text":"學術院贊助然後就是說召集人士都是外國的學者故宮有參與但是這一次在故宮的閉門會議裡面的話就是當然有蒲中城有大川就是有幾位原住民的學者然後包括劉玉昌去談述就是台灣這一塊土地他在整個地緣政治上面還有族群的關係這個是有的那展覽的部分的話當然也會有"},{"start":7248.629,"end":7270.914,"text":"可是我跟委員報告就是故宮無意透過一個展覽的形式然後去牽扯到過多的地緣政治或是一個意識形態的議題因為這樣對一個博物館的運作的話基本上來講的話它會有小麻煩所以我們盡量去做一個學術客觀中立的一個展覽的呈現"},{"start":7271.274,"end":7293.853,"text":"如果在我們自己的地方做這樣的一個學術展還要去想到說會引來小麻煩我都覺得不太可思議我希望院長能夠再思考一下但是我還是要特別的來強調因為故宮南院這幾年我們看到有很多關於本土的一個台灣內容"},{"start":7297.115,"end":7311.802,"text":"台北故宮這邊我們看得出來其實還是很保持它一定的一個定位跟特色但是我們可以看到我們南苑現在感覺上它的遊客量越來越多"},{"start":7312.902,"end":7337.378,"text":"那為什麼呢 因為它本土化的內容很接地氣的行銷方式變成了故宮南苑的成功方程式反觀 我們來看一下我們的台北故宮最近網路上也在討論很多人想說 欸 故宮很好 我要去那邊實習但是卻有人抱怨說 故宮太奴了"},{"start":7338.138,"end":7354.443,"text":"放棄 謝謝 連一點交通費都沒有那我覺得因為我們現在故宮是我們整個博物館的領頭羊洞見觀瞻大家會仿效 好就仿效那我不曉得說院長你怎麼想"},{"start":7357.188,"end":7378.767,"text":"這個問題的話 我想我們會跟教育部來合作 因為實習生的話牽涉到教育部然後學校的一個實習政策 當然可以提供更多的福利的話是一個好事可是因為會牽動到其他的相關的 就是不同的博物館或不同的實習制度 這個部分的話我們會來研究評估"},{"start":7379.389,"end":7387.778,"text":"我希望給我一個報告好不好好那在這裡呢我最後想要關心一下就是故宮有沒有做族語的導覽故宮的族語導覽的話的確是沒有"},{"start":7395.492,"end":7421.659,"text":"但是你們哒啦啦的在夜報上面寫說與客委會合作20則客語語音導覽客委會合作的話基本上是有因為是客委會他們客家文化中心他們提供那園民會合作沒有他們提供資源請故宮協助去做客語的導覽好那我現在要講的就是有法源耶我們的國家語言法治安法的第7條音"},{"start":7424.14,"end":7436.031,"text":"強化公共服務資源及營造友善使用環境原住民族語言發展法第8條應在公共場所推動使用原住民族語言以營造原住民語言使用環境"},{"start":7438.942,"end":7461.422,"text":"好 那這個部分的話 我們來跟那個延民中心來研議看看是不是可以比照客戶發中心的而且我們很傷心耶你的導覽系統 華語 台語 客語 英語 日語 韓語西 法 德 澳 泰 粵 印尼 手語連手語都有 口述影像都有就是沒有國家語言法裡面包含的主語內容耶"},{"start":7463.43,"end":7477.429,"text":"我不曉得我們的故宮一定要這樣子嗎那麼樣的一個中華化嗎這個部分的話我們跟文化部我們來評估跟那個園民會來評估看看怎麼樣處理"},{"start":7479.33,"end":7494.671,"text":"我希望如果你們說很少其實台語 客語你看租界的北部縣區一個人台語一個 客語五個華語是五萬多雖然很少你們還是做了那國外的語言"},{"start":7495.99,"end":7522.114,"text":"你們也是都比照那些大國大族你們也都做了所以我覺得在這個時候看到台灣原住民族語言在國家語言裡面缺席我覺得這個部分要深切討論可以改進那希望把改進方案可以提到辦公室來好嗎是好謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝我立法委員質詢院長請回座"},{"start":7523.717,"end":7542.36,"text":"接下来请郭玉琴委员咨询我们在谢龙介委员咨询之后休息五分钟请郭玉琴委员谢主席有请院长谢校院长好各位好"},{"start":7543.915,"end":7559.088,"text":"院長早安 9月的時候我特別去參觀了我們的萬博我想裡頭也有故宮合作的一些區塊讓我們看到文物跟科技創意的一個結合非常的讓人印象深刻"},{"start":7559.888,"end":7580.918,"text":"另外從我們的大美不言到紐約大都會博物館特別第一次來到台灣的這些藝術作品的展出這兩次的特展我一共去了四次當然於公於私我都去了也要給故宮加油打氣我覺得這個是非常棒的一個展覽"},{"start":7581.778,"end":7598.927,"text":"那這也代表了世界級的一個典藏願意來到台灣尤其是來到故宮來做這樣子的一個交流但我也想要趁這個機會來問一下就是當國際找了故宮那我們也準備好要來迎接世界了嗎那我想這個大都會的這個展覽它是第一次登場"},{"start":7599.867,"end":7627.312,"text":"那對於之前像是梵科雅寶他們的這個大美不言或者是大都會他們都是非常大的一個展覽那我想這個品牌的合作是非常重要的第一步那我想故宮有沒有把這樣子的一個計畫合作的一個模式延伸成所謂的常態性的一個國際的展現那另外我們過去的展覽比方說我們可能要到到其他的國家去"},{"start":7628.192,"end":7638.323,"text":"展覽都是以初屆文物為主喔那未來是不是能夠甚至從被動的應邀變成主動的策展有沒有這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":7641.043,"end":7657.317,"text":"委員很清楚在國內的國際展就是有兩種主要的模式一種的話就是管對管的管制交流合作那另外一個是透過中介團體的一般來講的話就有商業效益的這樣的一個展覽"},{"start":7658.378,"end":7677.976,"text":"那因為最主要的話就是說它的成本費用非常高然後它彼此對文物的選擇跟安全運輸的保障各方面的話都非常重視所以國際展覽的話一般來談的話都是要談好幾年所以包括故宮的那個"},{"start":7679.932,"end":7705.274,"text":"捷克展跟龍展的話其實都也不是說我來了一談就成而是說我來的時候的話就是更明確的把它做一個定案所以未來的這樣的展覽模式的話我們當然會把它做成一個報告因為我們請那個漁夫那邊就把這樣的一個展覽經驗做成是一個完整的檔案記錄那未來的話作為我們未來交流的一個參考"},{"start":7706.075,"end":7735.283,"text":"好那我想那個剛剛我特別提到這個萬博我想那個也可以從這個萬博的經驗成為這個文化外交的一個固定的夥伴然後我想這個故宮也就是也可以往這樣子的一個方向去努力但是呢我想呢除了我剛剛所提到的我們關心就是國際上的一個展覽我們當然也關心展覽背後的一個最重要的基礎就是我們的文物保護的一個問題喔那我想這個近期國際接連發生所謂的博物館的安全的事件不管是羅浮宮也好"},{"start":7735.803,"end":7759.806,"text":"他在嚴密的一個防護之下仍然發生了非常重大的一個竊盜案那另外呢包含我們在這個捷克國家博物館因為也有展出我們總共131組的一個珍貴的文物那麼包含翠玉白菜在內那接連也收到了所謂的縱火啦槍擊等等惡意的一些威脅啦"},{"start":7760.767,"end":7776.128,"text":"我想故宮資產的一個保護已經不是只有我們自己本身管理的一個問題甚至也是延伸到所謂的國家安全的一個議題我想在這場外展在事前我們有沒有做過跨部會的一個動態風險的一個評估"},{"start":7777.91,"end":7799.02,"text":"那在這個捷克的這次的展覽有沒有由國安外交文化三方共定最高等級的一個安全的計畫這是第一個問題喔那第二個問題是說當捷克他們出現了這些所謂的黑函恐嚇性的時候我們故宮除了發表了三項聲明以外喔那有沒有跟這個捷克國家博物館"},{"start":7799.72,"end":7820.527,"text":"要求更加的這個嚴格的管理那未來如果還有類似比方說我們能到日本或者是我們到美國去潛在這些所謂的合作然後來策展或是展覽那如果碰到類似突發的一些威脅我們有沒有一個制度化的流程可以來做管理"},{"start":7822.43,"end":7844.099,"text":"跟委員報告就是故宮的出訪的一個交流基本上來講不是第一次所以過去的話都是用一種單純的文化交流的角度然後必要的國際規格的安全防護我們都會處理但是一切就是有兩件新的一個突發狀況一個就是那個"},{"start":7847.353,"end":7865.699,"text":"受到恐攻另外一個的話就是因為外館有失竊油管有失竊的一個現象所以就產生一個新的議題當然故宮文物的話出國不是故宮博物院可以就單純決定因為我們要送到文資局文資委員評議之後由文化部報行政院同意才可以出國"},{"start":7867.2,"end":7886.474,"text":"那未來的話當然就是因為這樣的現象未來文物在出國的時候我們會有更嚴謹的一個評鑑包括我也只是同仁就是不是只有出國展覽就算在國內的展覽的話它的那個風險評估的話要納為我們出展的一個重要的"},{"start":7886.994,"end":7915.442,"text":"要向所以這一次的話譬如說我們要去那個南陽博物館的話包括交通的風險評估我們都會納入就是說要走哪一條路然後怎麼要管控這個我們都會來處理好 為什麼我要特別提這一點因為10月21號卓仲泰院長也特別提到了就是針對五大威脅的一個國安的17項措施當中那也包含了這個故宮博物院在內的一些關鍵基礎的一個設施其實早就已經在做了"},{"start":7915.942,"end":7931.432,"text":"那針對這個部分其實也是應該也有相關的一個進程那另外就是說剛剛院長有特別提到其實不是只有在國外其實在國內那麼包含雖然我們已經有強化這個RFID的一個管理"},{"start":7931.852,"end":7952.717,"text":"但是內部的內控的問題其實也是要同步的升級那麼包含人員的一個審查的一個機制的外包廠商的一個資格甚至夜間巡邏或者是修應該是說維修通報的一個機制其實都應該要有一個明確的標準然後那我想這個部分也是我們要特別特別小心注意的那我想呢"},{"start":7953.917,"end":7971.093,"text":"接下來我要問的就是人力的部分我想去年其實上個會期包含今年5月其實我也特別提到剛剛吳麗華委員也特別提到就是實習制度欠缺誘因那怎麼樣能夠這個攜接這樣子機制從制度面來改善這個人才的一個流用"},{"start":7971.573,"end":7991.053,"text":"我想故宮典藏了將近有70萬件的一個文物但是我們的庫房的編制的人員只有50人這平均每一個人可能要管理14000件那麼包含這個技工臨時人力在內我想這是明顯的一個不足這個部分其實在過去多次我也都有在這邊質詢過我們的院長"},{"start":7992.674,"end":8006.344,"text":"目前為止我們有沒有最新的一些計畫或者是在人力的補充上面或者修復人力的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個新的計畫能夠來做培育或者是能夠解決當前這個員額不足的一個問題各位報告"},{"start":8008.886,"end":8028.212,"text":"故宮的話就是編制的修護人員的話是16位沒有錯可是我們文物藝皇保存的人力基本上來講的話包括相關的研究人員的話加起來的話其實我們維護文物的人力不能用單純的修護人員去計算"},{"start":8028.692,"end":8046.049,"text":"那因為紋路的維護的話也不是說像那個車庫裡面汽車每天都要給他雞媽蛋子膽一膽因為紋路有狀況的時候我們才會處理那今年的話就是明年的話紋路有狀況的時候才要處理那沒有預防性的維護嗎"},{"start":8047.23,"end":8070.891,"text":"而預防性的維護就是紋路如果狀況穩定的話基本上我們不去動它了解好那今年會增加一個基金的聘用的人員明年會增加兩位基金聘用的人我們有跟行政院爭取11位人力可是沒有準所以我們就是基金今年聘一位明年聘"},{"start":8071.631,"end":8096.416,"text":"兩位那如果說我們的那個基金的研議有的話那後來的話我們會繼續來增加好那我想的今年就是剛好碰到這個百年的願慶我想這個修復是不是的修復的一些需求因為現在又有這個我們的北院跟南院那這個人力的部分如果出現了斷層出現了警訊那這個部分我想也應該要來積極的往這個部分去研議"},{"start":8097.096,"end":8121.542,"text":"那如果有相關更近期的一些不管是剛剛有提到因為其實五月的時候這個院長也有特別提到就是用基金能夠來這個撲補然後來增加這個人力的部分如果有確實的話那麻煩把詳細的一些資料再提供給我辦公室作為參考可以嗎是可以沒有問題好謝謝謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝郭益勤委員質詢院長請回座接下來請張雅琳委員質詢"},{"start":8139.082,"end":8140.505,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們邀請院長請院長"},{"start":8145.377,"end":8169.659,"text":"張委員早我剛剛在下面聽吳立華委員講有關於北京故宮的一些敘事可能涉及統戰的部分我希望就是說剛剛吳立華委員也有希望我們的院長要有態度要建設出台灣不同的地方並且要勇於去爭取去說明這個部分我也希望我也是跟吳立華委員的要求是一致的"},{"start":8170.279,"end":8183.122,"text":"那也希望院長未來不要說什麼這個可能會有一些小小的問題小小的矛盾我們自己是台灣我們在自己的國家竟然連這樣子的事情都沒有辦法說我相信所有人都應該要為台灣的外交來做努力可以嗎"},{"start":8185.452,"end":8211.784,"text":"當然首先我們先來講一個問題就是我想大家都非常的關注有關於我們的國寶因為最近的這個羅浮宮的這個事件他這個文物的失竊那其實故宮馬上就展出了一些相關的行動就是說你們會即刻啟動最高層級的安全防護檢討與強化作業聚焦於這個沉重的防暴玻璃與具安全"},{"start":8213.785,"end":8241.366,"text":"檢驗然後還有夜間巡邏跟夜間巡邏的頻率會提升以及我們的外牆與施工通道防入侵模擬測試所以我想知道這個因為這次竊竊其實是竊賊是用升降設備來闖入顯示一個非典型入侵的風險那過去呢故宮雖然保持零失竊的紀錄但是我想面對一些各種不管是人為迫害或是施工的漏洞我們都不能夠掉以輕心所以我想請問一下院長最近一次的"},{"start":8241.927,"end":8244.516,"text":"防竊防災演練是在什麼時候"},{"start":8246.535,"end":8272.087,"text":"呃基本上來講的話現在是11月17號南北縣都會進行一個比較完整的一個一個演練11月17號11月17號我們就會做這個防竊防災演練嗎是包含了有關於深江設備啦外牆施工通道等非典型的路徑模擬還是跟過去一樣的模擬型形態呢好吧我們請副院長說明一下好了"},{"start":8274.412,"end":8292.492,"text":"我再次說明一下我們事件發生之後我們院長馬上主持緊急應變的會議抱歉可以靠近麥克風一點嗎聽不太清楚對不起10月23我們就馬上進行緊急的安全會議10月30就要副院長應變的一個檢討"},{"start":8294.025,"end":8315.242,"text":"那11月3號我們就桌棋桌棋就在桌面上做演習了那我們接著就是今天下午大概18點的時候我們就會做實際的演練包括警察單位也會來參與然後到11月10號的下午一點半又會再做第二次"},{"start":8315.962,"end":8337.435,"text":"我想問一下 因為其實我知道你們平常都會做一些演練但是我想這一次的狀況是跟過去非常的不一樣因為這個案例凸顯了一個非典型入侵的風險所以我想知道的是到底我們現在有沒有針對這一種我們過去可能沒有想過的升降設備外牆施工通道這樣子的一個非典型入侵做一個模擬的練習呢 我們有沒有"},{"start":8337.995,"end":8365.305,"text":"因為兩地的情境是完全不一樣對以故宮正館來講的話我們的外牆出入口幾乎都被封閉對所以在這一部分我們有經過相當的研習至於施工通道施工通道那是在另外一部分對這跟現場展覽的展間是不一樣的"},{"start":8367.009,"end":8385.286,"text":"對 所以你的意思就是說我們基本上這個羅浮宮的這種情境在故宮應該是不會發生 對嗎聽起來是這樣講具體一點就是進入的第一條件是不會在故宮發生的但是進入展場之後"},{"start":8386.465,"end":8400.79,"text":"他可能就是可以作為一個好 那我想問一下那就是進入展場之後因為我們現在是有提到說我們都有些防暴玻璃那我們針對防暴玻璃和警報靈敏度是不是也有做相關的測試那跟我還是重新講一下沒關係 我剛剛聽懂了"},{"start":8402.33,"end":8428.627,"text":"三層的防護的話第一個就是說我們的故宮延期的入口的話基本上來講的話沒關係院長我剛剛真的有聽懂不然這樣我時間會不夠至於玻璃的部分的話故宮現在玻璃的要求我們有沒有做相關的測試有測試而且故宮還有一個比較特殊的就是有玻璃碎裂的偵測裝置所以基本上來講的話只要玻璃碎裂的話就會所以我們上次全面檢測在什麼時候"},{"start":8429.948,"end":8444.337,"text":"我們隨時都在做而且現在的故宮對玻璃安全玻璃不可能隨時啦一定是有一個頻率吧已經到了那個那個那個掌櫃公司做不出來的地步了就是說因為故宮要求太高好的但沒關係我想問一下"},{"start":8446.718,"end":8468.239,"text":"好那我這樣非常清楚了就是說我們基本上對於文物的保全我們做的是比吾羅佛宮好像似乎還要更全面更完整這樣子那我想這樣就是希望就是我們的故宮可以繼續的保持啦因為畢竟保存的是我們最重要的文物那我接下來要問一個題目就是有關於數位的部分就是說我們在這個故宮呢"},{"start":8469.12,"end":8493.018,"text":"過去其實從2002年開始我們就有關注到這個數位轉型的部分所以那時候專注於在文物的保存還有研究以及建立資料庫後來在2011年的時候我們把這個資訊中心納編為教育展之處也就是說我們將資訊科技教育推廣以及展示設計相結合打破了過去的一些內部組織的規劃"},{"start":8494.899,"end":8514.949,"text":"所以我們就看到故宮的一系列的數位化接下來在2019年我們又再有一次的轉型是把永續的概念把它做一個連結目標是轉向觀眾服務開放使用權以及加值應用以及利用數據分析來理解訪客"},{"start":8515.609,"end":8532.116,"text":"那我想要請教就是說我們之前其實有一些曾經故宮2.0捕捉靈光的這個新媒體藝術展它其實是把我們的西山行旅圖還有翠玉白菜等作數位的演繹那其實我覺得評價其實也都蠻好的效果也很不錯那我接下來想要請教一個問題就是說當我們現在在這個"},{"start":8536.258,"end":8560.211,"text":"AI時代 之前10月的時候文化部跟教育部有一個博物館的創新管理的會議我不曉得說當時故宮有沒有相關的類似相關的會議來討論在AI時代的博物館應用畢竟故宮過去都只是領頭羊我想要確認說我們有沒有類似相關的會議在討論有關於AI的應用這件事情上"},{"start":8562.752,"end":8580.082,"text":"故宮基本上來講的話我們有辦過類似的研討會可是跟教育部對口去討論這個事情並沒有但是故宮的話基本上來講的話我們提供了線上的一個博物館然後跟推廣教育活動的話我們都有含納各個地方的學校"},{"start":8581.127,"end":8604.683,"text":"我想問一下,到底現在故宮有沒有可以去找到留住像這樣子的專業的科技人才?因為過去您也有提到說以我們人事薪資結構,其實是很難找到數據的科學家、互動的設計師,甚至是UI設計的工程師。所以我想了解,未來在AI時代來臨,故宮要如何保持競爭力呢?"},{"start":8606.629,"end":8632.883,"text":"故宮博物院的話人力編制的話當然是有限包括我們的那個數位置新室的人力基本上來講的話沒有辦法擴張可是我們跟學校跟一些工研院跟一些學術單位合作的話基本上來講像這一次的話城市化前在那個大阪市博的話就跟工研院合作我想跨業的合作的話基本上來講的話比我們自己的人力去發展的話其實有更大的空間"},{"start":8634.107,"end":8655.33,"text":"好,我想因為之前也是有一些學術來批評啦,就是說有關於博物館的組織變革及數位化的專業人才培育部分是需要持續的來強化。所以我想除了我們跟其他人合作之外啦,我們是不是也可以去思考一下,是不是可以用這個外包專業服務的方式啦,或是其他的法人博物館,maybe,也可以去思考一下。"},{"start":8656.411,"end":8681.503,"text":"怎麼樣的讓我們可以在AI的時代能夠保持我們的競爭力那因為時間有限我先簡單要一個報告就是說我們是不是可以提供一個人才評估規劃的一個報告給我是根本報告因為我們最近報了一個計畫然後給行政院我們希望把原來的世衛資訊室改成一個世衛資訊處讓它的功能的話可以有更強的發揮那這個案子還在行政院審議當中"},{"start":8682.583,"end":8698.731,"text":"了解那我最後再花個一分鐘的時間很快很快就是說我想要拜託我們的院長就是說因為其實國際博物館像是在倫敦自然史博物館或是東京國立博物館都已經進入了AI的導覽甚至還有兒童數位互動平台的一個階段那甚至呢史密森學會"},{"start":8699.591,"end":8724.687,"text":"它也有兒童數位研究部門來開放資料跟教材給學校和AI教育平台使用我們現在是不是有針對兒童或是家庭的觀眾來出或是開始相關的研究去了解如何設計出一個數位互動平台或是導覽的系統因為根據研究發現我們如果可以導入的話孩子停留的時間會更長所以我們現在有沒有相關的進度呢"},{"start":8726.235,"end":8745.064,"text":"這個部分當然國外的博物館都有在做不過實際上還多是一個局部的一個實驗的性質明年故宮的話就是會有一個AI展廳就是那南葉未來的話也會有一個AI的那個特別的展館這個部分的話我們都有已經在做一個規劃"},{"start":8746.024,"end":8765.741,"text":"但是我想問的是針對小孩子的部分我們有沒有對就是所謂的小孩畢竟南院其實有非常多的小孩去耶對包括就是小朋友的一個教育推廣我講的是數位互動的部分或是AI導覽的東西我們有沒有類似這樣子如果你們有這些規劃那是不是就可以給我一個規劃的報告"},{"start":8767.182,"end":8781.806,"text":"數位互動的話基本上是沒有問題因為事實上我們譬如說我們那時候的那隻大白馬然後小朋友畫圖可以上去的話基本上來講像類似這樣的數位互動的話雖然不叫AI可是已經具有AI的一個實驗性質了"},{"start":8786.263,"end":8797.685,"text":"沒關係這樣子好了你給我有沒有任何關於數位跟AI的規劃好不好針對於兒童的部分好不好謝謝OK好謝謝張雅玲委員質詢院長請回座接下來請謝榮介委員質詢"},{"start":8816.348,"end":8824.317,"text":"主席 我請議長院長 請蕭院長來 謝委員 你好議長 辛苦了 不客氣可以聽你的答詢喔 替你吃點心"},{"start":8832.642,"end":8844.41,"text":"你這樣表現得不像故鄉萬無一失沒有故鄉萬無一失這就是重點嘛但是我不能起來說我整個都知道我請教你在我們故鄉的這種保全這麼精密你認為做一個環節是比最脆弱的一個環節"},{"start":8867.135,"end":8879.562,"text":"就是在你內心最親密的地方最擔心的是做一個困擾你不開心的話,那個叉拉布聽到以後不一定會破你的脖子我會想想要怎麼幫你補救對不對,不用怕怕什麼"},{"start":8884.355,"end":8909.228,"text":"我...這台語很難說你用講一講就好了我想那個南苑的話基本上是一個新的建築所以他...我看你講我就是去南苑回來我就替你做擔心他的建築結構的話基本上來講的話是比較沒有問題北苑的話是建築比較老舊可是因為他水泥的反而感覺上很安全但事實上的話就是"},{"start":8910.583,"end":8916.108,"text":"我這樣說 你如果不變 我告訴你 針對最脆弱的部分內部應該再做一個研討 要怎麼來補充 這比較實際的不然我們的國保 你看今年 幾年了 幾萬人參觀的人數一年多 一年少人 比較這樣"},{"start":8935.455,"end":8963.3,"text":"沒有啦,一年比一年多啦,今年破一百萬南院的話一直在增加,並沒有減少我們疫情進行,你知不知道那個人數很厲害我在北院的話,當然就是在疫情期間的話,有一段時間南院一年,統計是99萬多而已,沒有到一百萬你說破一百萬,沒有啦,差一點點啦有啦,今年破一百啦,差三千多啦"},{"start":8963.76,"end":8969.306,"text":"沒有啦 今年破100前天破100我請教你一個推廣過境卡的案件你怎麼看保護管卡這個合約總共五千幾萬嘛對 五千幾萬你是怎麼跟法庭"},{"start":8983.458,"end":9009.705,"text":"跟委員報告 就是那個故宮保管卡 他的經費預算的話是在那個新故宮計畫裡面我們花了總預算是五千多萬 那我們結算花了四千多萬是啊 你今天開白色 我的錢怎麼停 我想不到呢委員 我跟你報告 前陣子開下去的時候 阿伯的續卡的情況很不理想"},{"start":9012.121,"end":9029.875,"text":"細卡很不理想的話 基本上來講的話這個案子就變成沒辦法登記維持了就對了 對因為我不可能一年拿五千萬下去五千萬下去所以你就是緊接快要給我站起來這樣那不是我 那是經紀人的意見我知道不是你啦 就是你故鄉啦不要說拿給別人"},{"start":9031.676,"end":9047.489,"text":"所以你算這個乾淨手快發沾就沾了不是不是跟委員報告不是我不是我把這個案子停掉了因為他的他的執行已經到了我現在告訴你我現在告訴你我是你的委員我會把他送檢調你知道嗎我會把他送現在有問題沒問題我們不知道啦我會把他送調查"},{"start":9058.871,"end":9061.136,"text":"因為這個案子是延續性的也不是說哪一位院長"},{"start":9066.704,"end":9094.711,"text":"沒有啦 我知道啦 這不可思議嘛明天不可行李行 還是完全事先不評估其實是說真的做了多少 剛才疫情還是說剛才什麼樣的特殊的原因 造成我想疫情是一個很重要的關鍵啦但是因為當初的整個評估的話沒有找文化部 沒有找教育部共同參與的話基本上來講的話 以故宮"},{"start":9096.351,"end":9119.236,"text":"單獨一個單位之旅然後要去那你同期時要停的時侯 想說這個界階如果繼續延續 再找這兩步做下去後續的部分 繼續延續這個界階 覺得有什麼想法跟委員報告就是我們有跟那個文化部跟那個博物館協會去討論因為時空環境不同 時空環境不同就是說"},{"start":9120.896,"end":9141.186,"text":"過去保管卡 希望脫為保管卡的方式然後用優惠減價連鎖的方式去增加人力但是現在的話就是文化部有文化幣然後那個什麼老人有老人福利優惠你都這樣喔 一行要三十四千萬啦一行要三十四千萬啦這都人民的費過錢啦 有人是要比較心中的啦"},{"start":9142.086,"end":9149.053,"text":"所以我們現在就希望說他跟我們現在並沒有要我們現在就是讓他跟那個博物館協會合作我們的藍衣 現在這個夾著不好看啦你有什麼新的推薦的價位嗎"},{"start":9164.599,"end":9176.957,"text":"故宮南苑基本上來講的話他越來越好並沒有說越來越好他的展覽的能量然後跟推廣教育的能量都持續增加那當然我們做了很多"},{"start":9184.113,"end":9186.736,"text":"評論2000吧他可以更好啦我知道 但是因為當初的規劃"},{"start":9198.749,"end":9215.006,"text":"讓更多的人甚至讓北部的人都願意說不要來幫他可以議員如果想要來攔他看你有沒有想過就把故鄉裡面的電腫裡面過去沒有電腫過比較有科幻性比較高的這些東西直接就對攔他性來覺得有這種機會"},{"start":9217.889,"end":9243.527,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的江戶胡適之美胡適會就是因為在南宴的展覽所以它就會引發很大的效果那另外的話百年宴慶的話我們把故宮的鎮宴三寶換寬的西山行李圖三件大的作品到南宴去展覽我想這個也會讓南宴的那個參觀的民眾更提升是支撐而已沒有等金"},{"start":9246.781,"end":9265.142,"text":"另外一個的話當然跟委員報告因為現在我們在南苑的話蓋第二展覽館第二展覽館的話是國保館未來的話那個龍藏經的話會整個在那邊常駐我想這個對南苑來講的話也是一個非常重要的一個改變跟南部人的信用比較接近就對了"},{"start":9267.338,"end":9289.919,"text":"這樣我怎麼想要來看 現在就可以去看了看委員安排的時間 我跟你說不足啦 我跟你拜託一下啦南部齁 嘉義這裡 台南這裡 他不說東紀市的故鄉我跟阿扁的總統說那個熱番地 你台南人出身我問全台灣的人 大家都建議 如果故鄉南美最佳的地方在哪裡 大家都說台南"},{"start":9290.74,"end":9314.669,"text":"沒辦法 那時候有時候要檢討 當館長戴槍投靠 所以就要把這個寶貝來放在那裡你們要多用一點心 好不好對於藍營喔 把生育後 你就要把錢花給大漢啦有有有 我們現在 譬如說上個禮拜我們也連結藍部的各個不同的單位 辦理協助研討會都是要提升整個藍部的一個能量謝謝 信仰眾委員支持"},{"start":9320.434,"end":9321.715,"text":"院長請回座我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9632.403,"end":9645.361,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來請陳秀寶召委謝主席 請院長好 有請院長"},{"start":9649.822,"end":9677.527,"text":"趙慧照院長好院長我們今年的總預算因為受到這個在野黨大幅的這個刪減其實很多部會呢在業務執行上都受到非常大的影響故宮也是深受其害這一次呢我們故宮我們的文物我們的國寶到捷克其實捷克這個國家對我們非常的友善也非常的重視他們為了順利能夠讓那個翠意白菜外展在去年他們完成了司法免扣押的這個法律修正案"},{"start":9678.287,"end":9696.566,"text":"在這個展覽開幕式上其實捷克很多重要的政府官員也都有出席像參議院的院長韋德齊之前來過台灣的這個眾議院院長艾達莫瓦還有文化部環境部的首長以及捷克國家博物館的館長盧卡齊都親自出席"},{"start":9699.168,"end":9718.129,"text":"館長還以我們的翠玉白菜是跟盧浮宮的蒙娜麗莎是同等的地位這樣來相比可見是對我們是非常的重視而且館長有表達說在我們故宮展結束之後他會親自的壓陣將我們的國寶送回來我們台灣"},{"start":9719.778,"end":9746.852,"text":"所以可見這次捷克外展是非常重要他們是非常重視的但是故宮卻因為預算刪減的緣故導致我們只有四位人員出席包含蕭院長 副院長及兩位部展人員這麼重要的一個展竟然只有四個人可以去其中我們正副院長的住宿機票費是捷克國家博物館支應的"},{"start":9747.432,"end":9772.875,"text":"那我們兩位部長人員其中一位的所有費用那另外一位的部分旅費是用故宮的贊助款來支應也就是說故宮的預算沒有辦法支應這一場這麼重要的文物外交計畫這真的是非常離譜非常糟糕的事情喔院長我們接下來還有一個法國的外展我們會不會也遇到這樣的狀況會不會有預算不足的這個狀況"},{"start":9775.259,"end":9782.53,"text":"根文報告就是基本上來講的話國際文化交流屆展單位他們負擔"},{"start":9785.876,"end":9804.822,"text":"運輸保險 然後部轉人力跟部分的開幕的貴賓這是一個常態當然這中間的話所以這是一個領域對 這是一個領域 這是一個常態當然沒有規定說一定是幾位而是去衡量整個工作的一個狀態"},{"start":9806.022,"end":9821.053,"text":"那這一次的話有兩位人演用故宮自己本身的贊助款是因為延時的展覽的時候沒有估計到數位展所以這一次的話有數位展見所以數位展見的話基本上來講的話他就"},{"start":9822.467,"end":9836.287,"text":"額外的人力需求所以我們就是有兩位的數位展的一個策展人員然後用我們自己的贊助經費去所以會用到贊助經費也表示說是本來的預算是不足的才需要這樣來支應"},{"start":9838.918,"end":9862.507,"text":"也不盡然因為原來並沒有估列那個數位展那當然就是說如果在沒有刪減的情況之下故宮的確可以用我們的年度預算來支應那接下來法國的外展呢一樣如果以主管級的話會有禮遇那如果一起出去的這些助理或是助理研究員的話"},{"start":9862.947,"end":9890.763,"text":"目前的话就是布展人员有五位这是由画房那边支援的那当然就是说我跟副院长是开幕也是由他们来支援的这以法国的状况是这样反而去法国的话是会有五位布展人员在在对那个节课的时候一样有布展人员只是说他们先押印过去布完展以后他们就先回来"},{"start":9891.468,"end":9906.606,"text":"那就是開幕當天就是政府院長他們就已經回來了他們已經回來了那在跨國的時候其實也是一樣就是不展人員先去不好展然後他們就回來然後我跟副院長的話會去參加那個開幕對"},{"start":9907.927,"end":9918.678,"text":"故宮作為世界級的博物館如果說我們因為預算遭到大幅刪減的緣故導致我們業務沒有辦法很妥善的執行我們有一個這麼難得到國外展覽的機會如果因為預算不足沒有辦法廣為宣傳這對我們這麼難得的這個文化外交真的是一個很大的損失"},{"start":9926.986,"end":9941.274,"text":"所以在這邊真的要呼籲在元委員我們要了解行政機關的難處不要一再的為難為台灣做事為國家做事的人那這次院長您到捷克也有邀請捷克的文物來台灣展出那目前有正式的規劃嗎"},{"start":9942.948,"end":9969.452,"text":"我們討論很久因為捷克自從跟我們有密切交流之後他們其實很多的展覽活動提出怎麼樣更好的就更高端的一個展品來我們還在討論在展覽結束之後Lucas館長會押印文物回台的時候那時候的話我們會有一個正式的討論定案就是展覽的主題方向跟大概的內容"},{"start":9970.169,"end":9990.776,"text":"所以要等到我們的展出結束館長也來到我們台灣的時候再一起來討論好那接下來我要請教院長這次翠玉白菜在捷克展出期間有多個行政機關受到威脅性包括像陸委會文化部總統府那內容大多是針對翠玉白菜的安全進行相關的恐嚇威脅"},{"start":9991.996,"end":10015.017,"text":"那請問院長我們有沒有掌握到說去了解這些祭出恐嚇性威脅性的是同一個人還是不同的人犯案這目前我們有訊息嗎依照恐嚇的信件的話他基本上來講的話他就是用那個跳島的方式所以有從加拿大有從不同的地區所以我們沒有辦法去"},{"start":10017.77,"end":10041.36,"text":"證實是不是同一個人但是捷克跟台灣雙方的話我們就透過管道在監控這件事情因為故宮你們這邊也有回覆說已經延長緊急應變的措施那也有請捷克加強展覽的安全維護那故宮目前跟捷克也建立雙方的溝通管道請問這樣的管道是隨時有狀況可以保持是暢通的嗎"},{"start":10043.312,"end":10060.287,"text":"這個管道隨時暢通因為現在通聯的方式有很多種所以隨時有問題的話不管是用電話或是用視訊的話馬上都可以處理那麼後續在展覽完畢之後我們相關的維安會不會也有進行這些級別的提升"},{"start":10062.287,"end":10075.456,"text":"事實上去捷克的話就是包括去法國的話他們都有保全戒護跟台灣一樣就是說我們文物運輸然後整個運送過程的話都有相當的一個維安措施"},{"start":10076.209,"end":10099.695,"text":"其實翠玉白菜出國出訪真的是很不容易國人覺得這是一件很重要的事情但是同時也會擔心我們翠玉白菜的安全那所以說關於這個部分我也希望說故宮這邊我們要上緊發條對這個安全在維安部分要特別特別的能掌握各種訊息讓我們的翠玉白菜可以安全的回到我們台灣"},{"start":10100.655,"end":10115.971,"text":"那台灣現在透過各種文化的活動進行國際交流包括像文化部外交部那故宮當然也很積極的在國際間做這個交流的這個策展那我們台灣的文化跟我國的國寶可以走進世界"},{"start":10116.451,"end":10133.363,"text":"但現在目前中國是用在國際間強調文化正統性來阻擋我們跟其他國家進行文化交流甚至說我們故宮的藏品一定會到北京展出我想請教院長北京故宮有透露出相關邀展的訊息嗎"},{"start":10136.388,"end":10158.402,"text":"過去好像曾經有過但是在我任內的話並沒有這樣的一個信息那過去的話兩岸的文物的話的確曾經河流像那個富春山基土但是故宮的文物要去北京展覽的話就是因為司法免扣押跟名稱宰屍的問題這個問題的話都沒有辦法解決所以目前的話是並沒有可能性"},{"start":10159.434,"end":10167.906,"text":"部長您覺得中國他在國際間一直強調文化正統這樣子的一個手法會不會影響到我們跟民主國家之間的文化交流"},{"start":10169.778,"end":10197.701,"text":"我想我們的外交處境大家都知道很辛苦所以故宮博焱還是竭盡最大的力量然後把故宮的文物推展出去然後去達成一個跟國外交流的目的但是也不會因為說故宮的文物出去的話就是產生誤解說這是北京故宮因為北京故宮跟台北故宮的話大家都可以分辨得非常清楚"},{"start":10198.001,"end":10209.433,"text":"那院長您說故宮現在也很積極的在跟規劃其他國家的互動跟交流那我們在捷克跟法國的展覽之後有沒有規劃其他國家進行相關的展覽"},{"start":10212,"end":10241.08,"text":"展覽的洽談的話我們一直都在進行之中那因為還沒有明確就是甚至彼此雙方還沒有同意釋放信息之前的話原則上的話我們還是繼續努力好的就是繼續有在規劃那本席也希望說我們故宮在民主國家間的這個進行交流這個文化交流不應該陷入所謂的什麼文化正統的這種論調那聚焦在民主國家間的合作"},{"start":10242.161,"end":10267.84,"text":"這才是我們台灣在國際間不可替代的論點這個部分我也相信故宮在這個立場上剛才院長您的回答我也覺得說是很正向的我們要堅持我們自己本身的立場那外來的這些威脅外來這些恐嚇其實我們有我們自己的一個方式我們去拒絕它我們自己去我們可以守護自己的文物的安全"},{"start":10268.34,"end":10290.888,"text":"那接下來我時間到了但是我跟您提一下關於這個大都會展覽負評比較多的這個部分我希望說我大概講一下那你會後給我一個你們的報告就是在觀展動線不佳展廳狹小那人潮為了拍照駐足在畫前會造成人潮的這個堵塞"},{"start":10291.368,"end":10310.024,"text":"那人潮沒有控管得好排隊的人潮在假日的時候甚至排到二樓來還繞了很多圈再來是一個現場在現場發生的問題畫作投射的燈光不佳造成畫作有陰影那這個部分是在場觀展的民眾直接反映但是沒有得到改善"},{"start":10310.464,"end":10329.314,"text":"所以希望這些相關的這些訊息你們在策展的時候就應該要有這樣子的就是滾動檢討的機制但是並沒有歷史的得到改善所以希望說這個經驗提供你們日後在策展的時候給你們參考就是民眾有這樣子的"},{"start":10329.694,"end":10346.033,"text":"跟我們報告一下燈光的問題的話是當初是那個美方的人員他們自己來調整的當然觀眾反應之後我親自找同仁去處理的話其實燈光基本上來講的話應該說已經改善了沒有後面的那些問題"},{"start":10347.615,"end":10368.728,"text":"因為十一度媒體也把這個作品在大都會博物館展出的情況拿給我們看基本上來講的話它也是有陰影因為印象派的畫框比較厚所以對他們來講的話美方的人員認為說那是正常的可是在台灣的民眾的話基本上我們要求比較高所以這個基本上來講的話就是當時"},{"start":10370.169,"end":10392.328,"text":"有这样的反应之后我们去处理已经调整了动线少的话当然就是动线难的话一方面就是因为人潮太多那因为策展的方式的话也依照美方他们的一个规划所以在合约里面的话如果没有只能他们自己亲自动画所以我们不能动但是我们可以提供意见吗"},{"start":10392.928,"end":10413.802,"text":"對我們有提供意見可是我們盡量就是去疏導人流然後排隊排到樓上的話也是因為人潮太多因為我們不希望說在外面排隊所以讓他就是往二樓三樓上面去排隊基本上來講的話是提供一個觀眾更素素的一個參加環境但是因為人流控管的話因為人潮太多基本上來講的話這是展廳不夠大"},{"start":10418.385,"end":10441.34,"text":"我們可以造成民眾很願意去觀展這是一個好事啦但是對於這樣的動線規劃對於我們整個的這個展場的這個動線跟空間的規劃我想這是一個很重要的參考日後我們有這樣子的展覽的時候我們作為一個依據我們給民眾提供一個比較舒適的一個觀展的感受"},{"start":10441.952,"end":10464.143,"text":"是我們未來的話在展場空間的隔間上面的話我們就會做一個評估就是未來的話原來覺得空間很大可是之後的話展品掛上去觀眾來了以後就覺得太小了太擁擠了好謝謝主席謝謝院長好謝謝陳秀寶召委謝謝院長接下來請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":10475.236,"end":10495.918,"text":"麻煩請故宮院長好 有請院長葉委員好現在故宮預計要在故宮博物院的大門那邊規劃一個工程新的修復計畫那這個計畫上面也要增加一個大門的入口意向"},{"start":10496.772,"end":10515.16,"text":"據我了解好像你們在今年初的時候今年上半年有送到台北市文化局做審議結果台北市文化局4票同意 11票反對就是沒有通過後來故宮的說法是講說會重新再送 修正後再送目前你們現在的計畫是怎麼樣"},{"start":10517.767,"end":10537.557,"text":"現在計畫的話是跟那個規劃團隊在討論之中因為第一次沒有過然後第二次也沒有過如果第三次沒有過的話可能我們就是要變更計畫來處理整個就變更了就是到時候你們再送就不會長這樣是不是"},{"start":10540.354,"end":10552.041,"text":"會再修正現在的話我們進行我們要求團隊的話進行一個模擬就是說修正的方案然後做一個公開的展示或是網路的調查然後"},{"start":10553.243,"end":10573.008,"text":"看看民眾他們的反應然後在之後再送那個文資集審議因為現在的你現在弄這個意象好像網路上的惡評蠻多的啦有人認為說很像防疫口罩嘛有人認為很像大OK繃而且你坐電梯上來之後直接就擋到原來的故宮的外觀嘛"},{"start":10574.147,"end":10596.327,"text":"我覺得這件事情可能是大家比較介意的啦是 因為它的量體大家會比較介意但是因為這是一個初步設計初步設計對 初步設計只是一個概念因為大家很關心 蠻多人很關心然後我們故宮說實在它並不是一個真的皇宮嘛故宮 顧名思義應該是以前的皇宮但我們的故宮不是以前皇宮啦"},{"start":10597.638,"end":10607.498,"text":"為什麼要叫故宮是因為我們裡面有很多國寶當時政府為了要展示這些國寶儲存這些國寶所以蓋了這個故宮雖然不是真的皇宮"},{"start":10609.096,"end":10634.847,"text":"但是既然叫故宮我認為還是應該要比較像是傳統的皇宮的樣子這是我個人的建議所以你蓋了一個感覺上會擋到原本意象的東西會讓大家覺得不倫不類這個部分您自己參考反正總而言之你們現在感覺上是不會過所以你們可能會做大幅的修正再送聽起來是這樣然後再來故宮除了外觀之外好像裡面的設備"},{"start":10636.388,"end":10659.71,"text":"也被大家批評這是媒體的報導說你們最近在展一個百年展跟北宋有關的很多國內外觀光客都有去看結果一看到故宮裡面的廁所門生鏽然後就批評百年故宮連最基本的廁所維護都做不好"},{"start":10660.558,"end":10681.71,"text":"我不知道為什麼會這樣院長有去了解嗎是只有這一個廁所門嗎還是大部分都是長這樣根文報告這是在故宮一樓的左邊的南側的裡面的一個積電的維修門所以基本上不是廁所門不是廁所門"},{"start":10682.15,"end":10706.511,"text":"不是廁所門那這個的確是因為我們有馬上去檢視然後馬上重新粉刷基本上來講的話這個是故宮疏忽了我們把所有宴期南北宴的所有的廁所然後包括維修空間 維修門我們都檢視過了你說這個民眾有開始討論之後你們立刻就有去重新檢視過對 我們在那有多少門是長得這樣"},{"start":10708.112,"end":10730.757,"text":"就只有這個怎麼那麼巧就一個而已因為它就是廁所裡面的那個機電的維修廁所裡面的機電門對被忽略了是但因為故宮是重要的觀光景點是啊 故宮對 所以每一個角落都要維護我們的廁所在北市的評估裡面我們永遠是優等的就是有這樣的疏漏我們也覺得很抱歉反正現在都已經"},{"start":10732.185,"end":10747.813,"text":"確定好了因為這個看起來應該很久了所以很多網友說是不是故意的因為是百年故宮所以要有歷史的痕跡所以故意要把它留成這樣應該不是沒有 開玩笑完全是疏忽完全是疏忽就對了OK 再來"},{"start":10749.303,"end":10763.545,"text":"我們來看 很多人會從網路上去買故宮的精品這一份是監察院審計部的報告引述故宮自己的調查結果我們發現有一些表現不是很理想"},{"start":10764.446,"end":10785.941,"text":"比如說在112年的時候消費者對於故宮網路商城賣的精品的商品價格的滿意度是低於五成的只有四成五而且在付款方式的便利性也不高其實付款方式應該不至於滿意度這麼低但不知道為什麼只有不到七成"},{"start":10786.681,"end":10802.122,"text":"那這個部分故宮有什麼調整的你們有什麼改進的計畫嗎跟委員報告就是110年111年的話是因為疫情疫情的話網路的需求量高可是大家就沒有去注意到所謂的那個"},{"start":10804.545,"end":10826.095,"text":"評價不高的問題那到了112年疫情恢復以後我們正是這個問題所以113年整個那個網路商城的話就改版所以現在的滿意度113年114年滿意度都八成以上你說商品價格嗎商品價格的話我講的是特定項目"},{"start":10828.086,"end":10854.544,"text":"特定項目商品價格的話我們要再看因為商品價格的話的確故宮的文物的話都被評價說太貴了比較貴這個的確是這個樣子那付款方式呢價格有時候反映價值對不對那付款方式便利這可以調整嗎付款方式便利基本上沒有問題而且我們還設立國內第一個退稅的退稅的的博物館只有故宮第一個退稅那可以有接口支付嗎"},{"start":10857.495,"end":10879.669,"text":"因為接口支付是國人蠻常使用的一種支付方式現在有沒有接口支付接口支付目前沒有我們去你們商城的付款頁面去擷取的就沒有接口支付所以可能有人會認為說他比較常用的沒有機會用到就會覺得不夠便利性"},{"start":10880.049,"end":10907.535,"text":"是 這個部分我們可以再來評估因為接口之戶的話我們原來也有想要加進來可是因為前一陣子有一些升評所以我們就又把它停住了有一些什麼有一些接口之戶有一些負評 負面的負評對 負評所以你們沒有要用就對了我們會再評估會再評估 對便利性再提高然後再來像我之前都非常關心國保的保存"},{"start":10909.736,"end":10923.757,"text":"因為剛剛也有非常多委員談到我們現在故宮去捷克參展9月12號到12月31號有展示131件包括翠玉白菜清明上河圖等國寶可是故宮之前也有被"},{"start":10925.312,"end":10943.902,"text":"檢討一件事情就是故宮的文物過去不管是在參觀 策展 修復的開箱的體鑒人員接觸紀錄未曾想死接觸紀錄等於是一個保障當你要做紀錄的時候你會提醒自己在接觸的時候會特別小心可是以前被檢討說接觸紀錄不想死"},{"start":10947.321,"end":10974.133,"text":"我不知道像這一次出去展覽131件有沒有接觸紀錄到時候可不可以提供給委員會讓大家也做一個監督沒有問題因為故宮的進出庫房然後就是說提件然後就是出這些紀錄的話還件的話都會有一個相似的紀錄那再提供給我們最後一個小問題就是那時候故宮院長有抽點文物"},{"start":10976.158,"end":10980.244,"text":"那抽點的盤點期間是101年到111年然後盤點了15894件發現尚未修復的數量有358件實際上修復只有79件比例很低那現在的修復狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":10992.442,"end":11021.01,"text":"公文報告就是文物的經過這樣的一個千百年的歷程裡面當然會有很多就是需要修復的可是如果它狀況穩定的話沒有特殊的用途的時候其實我們並不會把它排列為修復的優先順序因為修復的人力永遠不夠對 人力不夠其實我上個會期就提醒過你你要去跟行政院爭取人力我們爭取11個人沒有通過但是我們自己檢討之後爭取11個都不通過"},{"start":11021.69,"end":11041.227,"text":"為什麼 他的理由是什麼因為總額管制我們自己評估之後我們今年會增加一個用基金聘用的人力明年增加兩個未來的話 如果基金有盈餘的話我們會再增加我覺得國保的保存也是很重要我覺得這部分大家一起努力謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢院長請回座"},{"start":11050.051,"end":11063.547,"text":"接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢謝謝主席我請國立故宮博物院蕭宗煌院長請蕭院長"},{"start":11068.905,"end":11094.22,"text":"吳院長 院長好 院長你大概是全台灣唯一要來立法院進行業務報告的館長所以也就是我們國家對於故宮之重視而國人對於故宮之期待所以大家對你們的要求會比較高那我今天有幾個問題要跟院長來討論第一個是呢今年是我們故宮南院的10週年那我們也即將南院要迎來第100萬位的觀眾"},{"start":11096.061,"end":11109.911,"text":"我們的成績其實我覺得相當的不錯南越也有很多的亮點特展八月剛結束有一檔是我們的江戶服飾會特展其實反應相當的熱烈我們總共參觀人數有到達了14萬人累計起來"},{"start":11114.574,"end":11127.208,"text":"不過我看到在網路上因為討論很多其實討論聲量高是好事但民眾有一點反應說覺得好可惜官網展了之後想要去買周邊商品結果發現只有一樣商品可以買院長有這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":11130.946,"end":11157.767,"text":"的確這個案子始料未及因為展覽是由南宴策劃可是因為行銷在北宴所以對接沒有對接的很好畫冊的部分每次一上架就賣光了文創商品的部分因為主要的重要的紋路很多都是跟日本借產所以並沒有去談商品授權的問題之後我們有根據故宮自由的展品我們開發了20項的品項"},{"start":11160.149,"end":11186.119,"text":"那當然就是說來的比較晚所以這個部分的話未來故宮我也已經責成同仁在監獄會議上面就是說任何一個展覽大的展覽規劃的時候我們都要考慮到就是文創商品的開發的部分每次我們去逛故宮從來沒有空手而歸的一定逛完就很想買周邊商品所以我想這一次這個是有點可惜啦所以未來希望每一次的特展也好我們的展覽都能夠周邊相關的把它規劃好"},{"start":11189.64,"end":11205.751,"text":"那第二點要請教剛剛前面也有委員關心也就是因應羅浮宮失竊案震驚全球那台灣大家也在關心我們故宮的防護安全是不是做得足夠完備剛剛前面有委員說故宮因為院長有提到全台灣唯一備有警犬"},{"start":11207.312,"end":11229.44,"text":"來協助我們安全防護的院館剛剛有委員說4隻可能不夠要不要提升到40隻今天要提升我是贊成但40隻真的太多了但我還是要請教一下關於我們故宮的防護的強化的準備因為副院長有說我們做了三層以上的防護那說明一下我們目前做了哪些的強化的措施呢"},{"start":11232.787,"end":11245.764,"text":"當然對油管的一個情況的話我們不便評估但是故宮第一個是我們重要的基礎國土設施所以我們在國土安全單位的一個防護之下的話我們"},{"start":11246.545,"end":11272.539,"text":"是列管然後就要做配合那個整個國土安全的演習那另外的話三層的話就是外圍 外圍的話就是驗區要進入驗區的話就鋼燒可以管制那第二層的話就是建物 建物的話結構安全然後包括外圍的陽台玻璃這個東西的話我們都有都有安全的監視系統然後跟那個玻璃碎裂的防護另外的話是展廳 展廳裡面的話當然"},{"start":11273.599,"end":11291.05,"text":"展櫃是一個防護 另外的話我們展場的話有服務人員就是有諸位警保全不定期的一個形式這方面的話都是加強溫度的那至於演練的部分的話 我們最近規劃陸續在進行就有關安全的演練"},{"start":11291.71,"end":11313.297,"text":"那當然南苑的話 現在是因為南苑有二館的工程他有一個 譬如說有一個大型的機器那這個大型的機器的話 當然就是說如果進入到那個展館的宴區的話 基本上來講如果沒有經過唾棄的話 不可能 甚至就是說他沒有必要過去所以這部分的話 我們都會強化 都會加強注意"},{"start":11315.317,"end":11333.326,"text":"我們的這個措施相關都來加強那你們的警犬也是從原來是以巡邏為主你們現在把它增加了要來這個徵收暴獵物這樣的任務嗎過去我講過過去在整個科技徵航還不夠"},{"start":11335.175,"end":11361.621,"text":"完整的時候是有需要用到景淺去做增防可是因為現在的話雖然故宮有一個延期的管制但基本上常態性是一個開放延期所以早上的話民眾就可以來散步所以用景淺基本上來講的話做一種攻擊性的一個防衛基本上現在已經比較少了都是用用科技來增防那景淺的話就轉為一個爆裂物的偵查跟那個"},{"start":11362.961,"end":11387.87,"text":"一般的刑犬因為因為因為動物還是有比人更敏銳的地方或是說那個科技沒有辦法達到的地方所以這是一個相輔相成暴獵物的徵收確實是工作知青犬他們的這個特色這到現在都很難取代我才剛去台中參訪這個我們關務署的緝毒犬培訓中心現在我們故宮北院裡面有四隻警犬"},{"start":11388.59,"end":11414.035,"text":"那南院呢有沒有配置因為每一個警犬都要配置一位零犬員然後如果是說有沒有規劃未來要在南院來配置警犬未來南院的話管成立的時候我們會爭取人力然後配置一般來講的話如果四隻是一個小隊的話他是會比較完整因為原來也是想說先量一隻或是兩隻院長我就是要沒錯要特別提醒你"},{"start":11414.195,"end":11437.794,"text":"因為我們工作群也是有實行時間上限的動物的福祉跟他的條件你們還是要去考慮所以你們現在北部四支然後我聽說北部四支可能中間還要來支援南院然後這個還有牽涉到輪班的問題所以請你們要趕快我想南院的警犬要趕快來加速來配置然後我們在執勤的時候也要請你們去注意相關的情況"},{"start":11438.755,"end":11461.586,"text":"那第三個我要來請教的是從我們疫情之後一直在統計故宮來院的人潮以及他們從國外旅客的話從哪些地方來那韓國一直是我們最大宗的旅客所以我有跟你們關心過我們的韓語導覽人員這個人數非常之少甚至有時候沒有那目前我們有做了哪些規劃加強嗎"},{"start":11465.926,"end":11489.558,"text":"韓語的志工導覽基本上來講的話的確是故宮一個最大的訓導你們現在是有韓語的語音導覽導覽手冊 韓文都有但是人 志工怎麼樣是招募不到嗎有沒有跟相關單位來討論合作現在只有一位我已經責成同仁我們想找譬如說像政大跟文化大學還有文藻"},{"start":11490.839,"end":11517.295,"text":"他的外学院里面有韩文我们请他们来合作共同讨论怎么样让这个韩语的导览可以可以上线那另外的话因为韩国的旅客增加最主要是团客团客的话他们都自己发展成为一个就说他们自行导览因为韩国的团的话基本上来讲的话他们自己都会配一个导览员所以在这方面的话就说虽然我们力有未待但是"},{"start":11518.897,"end":11530.29,"text":"好像還沒有變成是一個很大的問題但這個部分的話是我們警訊我們要來處理沒錯 因為我看到民間旅行者像Klook KKday他們其實都有推出就是專屬你們故宮的這個韓語的導覽所以代表這個需求是在的"},{"start":11534.295,"end":11558.13,"text":"那我們現在每年一直在看嘛我們每年目標的參訪人數其實都一直沒有達標所以我想既然韓國很明顯是一個潛力市場我們應當是可以針對韓國旅客韓文的友善相關的措施可以再做更完善一點仔細的這個規劃來去吸引更多的人潮我們會來強化好謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝佩儀委員質詢院長請回座"},{"start":11562.148,"end":11575.657,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉賓委員質詢鍾嘉賓 鍾嘉賓委員不在接下來請洪孟凱委員質詢質詢時間4分鐘 謝謝好 主席謝謝麻煩請故宮院長請院長"},{"start":11584.346,"end":11607.802,"text":"好 院長好委員長院長今年故宮百年本席也非常重視所以百年願慶那一天本席也親自前往那當然很多人都會講是說這個羅浮宮看到這樣的一個失竊案件那故宮真的一定要小心跟注意那我比較直接的想請教到目前為止我們有沒有去了解說羅浮宮到底為什麼這一次被失竊的主要原因是什麼"},{"start":11609.573,"end":11636.086,"text":"當然有 可是我們不便公開來評論我們透過什麼樣的管道有跟這邊掌握因為其實我想這個是一個就是說如果說有安全機密上的考量的話你可以不便評論但是我覺得最重要的是我們要看到別人的問題我們來思考是說他們有這樣的一個狀況那我們真的要看到不足的地方就改進避免這樣的一個憾事在我們這個發生我們都不希望發生"},{"start":11637.237,"end":11651.609,"text":"所以我們有沒有確實去了解是說到底為什麼羅浮宮在這一次他有被竊盜的一個狀況對於這個評析的話我們當然有跟委員我們可以給委員可是不便公開的去評論油管的狀況好"},{"start":11653.47,"end":11671.903,"text":"那其中媒體上有報導其實主要是在於是監視器的實腳以及人員的配置還有安全維護的比例過低這是媒體已經有公開的一個報導的部分那監視器的實腳我想先確認一下到目前為止我們故宮全院來講我們監視器是不是有百分之百的一個掌握"},{"start":11673.154,"end":11693.086,"text":"故宮的監視器我們強調就是希望做到無死角可是任何的安全防護的話都還有強化的空間所以目前還是有死角沒有死角你剛不是講說安全強化還有空間對 晚上約會的話一定跑不掉一定會被遭到"},{"start":11695.496,"end":11716.366,"text":"開玩笑好笑嗎不好笑對不起我的意思是說因為故宮的監視器的我再跟你講說現在世界發生了一個重大的竊案過去沒有人想過說羅浮宮會有珠寶被盜然後故宮到底現在我們的監視器有沒有死角"},{"start":11717.571,"end":11737.553,"text":"你跟我講男歡女愛約會我們監視器我是強調說故宮監視器的佈線基本上來講的話好 請在會後給本席我們現在故宮的一個監視就相關的一個資料好不好可以公開的請讓本席知道第二 安全維護比例過低我們現在一年的預算有多少編列在安全維護上"},{"start":11743.8,"end":11769.232,"text":"因為預算的編列的話就是這邊的話是總共9500多萬那當然這個所謂的9000多萬占故宮的比例來講的話我們的預算比例的話當然如果是用6分之1左右就差不多不到20%嘛"},{"start":11771.47,"end":11787.144,"text":"對不對那不到20%以現在羅浮宮羅浮宮講說他一年我看了一個資料一年羅浮宮比例其實是比我們他應該將近10億10億對照他的遊客以及對他的量體跟我們這比例來講我們的維護有沒有要提升的地方"},{"start":11789.264,"end":11814.143,"text":"當然要可以提升當然要提升這個統計的基礎要看看到底他的計算所謂的安全維護的話是在哪一部分如果包括所有的人力的部分的話當然那個比例就會提高很多是所以本席才會提醒就既然已經有一個實驗組了那我們相對來講我們要做到滴水不漏不能有這樣的一個事情發生在故宮這一點請院長記在心裡該檢討要檢討還有第三"},{"start":11818.926,"end":11841.198,"text":"其實本席也看到現在1到8月樂門博物館排行我想你應該也有看到我肯定故宮的同仁的努力跟這次的願慶我也覺得辦得很好那個五碼圖我可以看到我非常感動但現在很真實的數字1到8月樂門博物館排行前三名"},{"start":11842.534,"end":11855.818,"text":"第一名也跟我關了當時我在嘉義當文化局長的時候我們就把那個院子給設立下來嘉義勢力博物館第二名佛光山佛陀紀念館第三名中正紀念堂故宮排到第幾名"},{"start":11859.861,"end":11876.01,"text":"故宮跳來跳去有時候七有時候八甚至會到九滿意嗎不滿意但是我跟委員報告因為各個博物館或是文化機構他們的統計基礎不一樣故宮的話是用售票跟那個"},{"start":11877.051,"end":11901.601,"text":"跟那個電子監控的方式對 售票或是免費像嘉義勢力博物館它可能是免費不用門票它有門票它有部分的部分它是需要門票但是我講的是說門票高低也是有一個落差可是在重點是過去大家講到來台灣看故宮 看中華文物這些都是我們應該可以更加行銷宣傳的部分我只講一點"},{"start":11902.793,"end":11928.298,"text":"院長在你心目中現在故宮博物院在全世界排名我們到底以前我們講說我們跟羅浮宮跟大都會博物館跟大英博物館並駕齊驅四大博物館我們有沒有這個氣魄跟這樣子的一個雄心我想增排名的話是沒有辦法去增排名因為現在大的博物館越蓋越大所以那個大小的問題是另外包括說"},{"start":11930.786,"end":11946.053,"text":"包括說這一個月文物最大的新聞是什麼全世界大埃及博物館20年的籌備10億美金的建設到最後落成39個國家的元首前往"},{"start":11946.733,"end":11966.247,"text":"為什麼故宮博物院要做那個所謂的新故宮計畫的原因也是因為我們希望說在整個展勝能量跟空間優化上面都可以提升院長如果有雄心壯志或說真的我們要努力計畫出來我們不會有反對就像過去本席一直也是教育文化委員會委員但"},{"start":11966.687,"end":11985.15,"text":"本席要提的是今天業務報告主席站起來了但本席要提的真的是業務報告見為知著如果說從一個院慶我們行政部門行政院院長沒有到總統沒有到然後到我們現在"},{"start":11987.267,"end":12000.717,"text":"讨论这些部分你跟我讲男欢女爱我真的没有看到你有意愿或是有雄心想要努力为故宫争取过去光荣的感觉我跟您算旧事但我对事不对人"},{"start":12001.755,"end":12019.831,"text":"我真的希望院長可以好好的努力加油也做多一點表率給我們故宮所有同仁看我還是肯定故宮但我希望故宮能夠做更好謝謝委員的指教謝謝洪孟侃委員質詢院長請回座接下來請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":12021.485,"end":12031.272,"text":"王宏威 王宏威委員不在請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請謝依鳳委員質詢謝依鳳 謝依鳳委員不在請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":12047.964,"end":12051.152,"text":"好謝謝主席我們是不是有請故宮院長委員長"},{"start":12058.895,"end":12082.475,"text":"院長早 今年五月的時候我們一起在故宮南院這邊針對國保館的上樑典禮那天也是非常的熱鬧我想要請教院長的是說現在整個南院二期上樑之後現在整個工程的進度是否有符合你們的標準期待跟標準"},{"start":12083.848,"end":12096.698,"text":"現在的工程進度的話大概48到年底的話可以到5成跟預定的工期來講的話大概稍微落後一點多"},{"start":12097.631,"end":12116.516,"text":"些微落後這個供期部分還是希望可以趕快再把它補足因為整個南院現在對於國保館是充滿期待我想要再請教院長未來整個國保館的規劃因為我們知道他重視的是在國保的一個修復"},{"start":12117.516,"end":12132.641,"text":"那南院現在應該是說整個故宮現在針對未來國保館的啟用大概在後年就會啟用那我們現在有什麼早期的規劃嗎可能就是說國保修復這一塊到底未來要怎麼呈現給大家來看呢"},{"start":12135.087,"end":12159.917,"text":"南苑的話最主要是有一個國保廳然後有一個數位國保廳另外的話有一個庫房那另外的話就是有一個修復室未來是一個修復中心所以在二館的話未來可以看到可見式的庫房就是你可以看到庫房後廠的一個狀況然後可見式的修復室你可以看修復的那個模擬的一個狀況"},{"start":12160.697,"end":12177.854,"text":"那這些修復師的人才要怎麼進用修復的人才的話當然就是在南苑的修復中心成立之後北苑會有人員去支援那南苑那邊的話會有兩個常駐的未來人力的話我們還是會視情況增加"},{"start":12178.454,"end":12205.679,"text":"那此外的話我們跟那個台南藝術大學的古物博物館跟古物修復中心跟那個政修大學我們都有簽訂那個合作的備忘錄未來的話我們會希望說故宮博物院南院的修復是成為他們的終極站他們畢業的學生的話可以進入到故宮的修復中心你現在說的就是我期待的我們南部有很多藝術大學甚至我們在地新港就有一家藝術高中"},{"start":12209.14,"end":12232.612,"text":"這些早願意投入藝術的這些人才未來我覺得就是我們南院整個國寶修復的未來人才可以來禁用的一個所在所以如果早一些你們現在用NOU讓他知道說我可以去開始培養人才新港藝術高中看能不能也加入我們故宮南院未來在人才培育端"},{"start":12233.212,"end":12247.891,"text":"讓他們也有這樣的一個機會我覺得院長這都是男院可以來做的事情我們跟新港藝術高中基本上來講也有簽訂合作備忘錄我們有一些合作的案子然後就是在進行中"},{"start":12248.671,"end":12257.279,"text":"好 期待那我對南苑 我老實說我剛才看到我們的同事 我們這個楊蓋森的他不是台議員 台議員 議員就可以亂批評的我們故宮南苑在我們家裡是已經幾十年事實上這個參觀的人數破百萬今年有破百萬嗎"},{"start":12271.931,"end":12299.902,"text":"前天破百萬 今年也是可以破百萬嘛前兩年是都差一點點 前一年好像差四千人啦 有破百萬的有這裡的參觀所 主人就是有人要來看 怎麼可以讓他說什麼故宮南苑 讓他這樣說到一文不達去啦 不然我要打我們故宮南苑這裡 剛好彭子城處長在後面 最近有一些展覽"},{"start":12301.323,"end":12313.547,"text":"哇 大排長龍 包括這個服飾會 服飾會的展覽 哇 很成功的我真的看到說 哇 這樣真的人排隊 要入口要入味是要排隊的最近都有這個 用這個導覽員 有用林志玲他的娃娃音都有這個晉級的巨人 他的這個聲優 叫做這個韋玉貴"},{"start":12327.112,"end":12334.734,"text":"他在那個晉級巨人那個主角艾連的聲音他的聲音來做這個導覽的一個聲音我覺得這個很有創意啊這實在很讚啦這點我真的要告訴大家大家按個讚很棒"},{"start":12344.757,"end":12367.152,"text":"跟委員報告因為今年剛好南部碰到三個颱風如果那個三個颱風影響讓那個遊客就斷掉了要不然的話那個人數還會再增加所以人數會增加啦但是我剛講的就是說這一些除了故宮國寶的一個演出之外我們可以再融合一些像現在用了林志玲當作華語的聲優"},{"start":12369.994,"end":12382.065,"text":"晉級的巨人艾連的聲優是日語的聲優還有韓語的聲優未來可能也可以再把客語的導覽我們也來找一個比較好的人來做我們的聲優我覺得整個故宮是隨著時代故宮不是國寶而已它也隨著時代的進步AI的導入剛剛也有很多委員去講到了"},{"start":12393.214,"end":12417.27,"text":"事實上故宮導入AI之後也可以再創造更多的文創商品讓故宮不是來參觀而已來故宮是一個Fashion可以買到很多好東西的地方這樣好不好好 這一次的甲子萬年的故宮鎮宴三寶到南宴去展覽的話我們就有意先去規劃文創商品所以這一次的話也趕得上"},{"start":12418.212,"end":12428.363,"text":"好 這文創商品就是符合年輕人的軌道我想一定會賣掉很好的 好不好好 加油謝謝委員謝謝蔡益瑜委員質詢 院長請回座今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢"},{"start":12438.24,"end":12459.674,"text":"關於今天會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"165172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c4585a2cfb9237768b96356aa020e99bb4dbaf0ce63b1deeb3eca6ea80bfd1def5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:43:32 - 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薪酬的設定"},{"start":33.812,"end":62.751,"text":"績效的評估還有紀律的處分大規模被自動化系統所取代那這個就被稱為是一個演算法的一個管理那演算法呢取代了人類的管理者那執行了以下重要的任務比如說第一個任務的分配跟調度系統根據即時的數據決定派單給哪一個外送員第二個呢薪酬的設定那演算法呢基於多種的變數比如說距離的時間或是一些高峰時段的動態"},{"start":64.132,"end":88.573,"text":"動態的計價來計算每筆訂單的報酬第三 績效的評估系統持續追蹤而且量化外送員的各項表現的指標第四 紀律處分跟解僱演算法可以根據它的預設的規則對於違反平台政策的外送員執行警告 暫時停權甚至是永久停用帳號的處分"},{"start":90.334,"end":112.08,"text":"這些演算法的內部的運作邏輯對於外送員還有消費者來講往往是一個不透明的黑箱也引發了對勞工的權益 市場的公平還有社會責任的深刻疑慮所以外送專法要能夠保障外送員的權益如何讓演算法更公開透明是一個非常重要的關鍵"},{"start":113.42,"end":127.339,"text":"我們民進黨立法院黨團有提案外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法的草案基本上位於為台灣平台工作者的權益保障奠定了一個良好的基礎"},{"start":128.38,"end":150.576,"text":"但是呢 針對演算法管理所帶來的一些挑戰本席在這邊再提出一些具體的建議 未來也會再做一個補充的提案希望能夠讓我們這個外縱的專法 針對演算法這部分能夠更加的細緻化的處理第一個 導入演算法透明度的義務"},{"start":152.037,"end":168.094,"text":"那這個我們的版本呢有針對定型化的契約包含報酬停權的這些項目但是沒有要求平台要介入這些結果的演算法的邏輯那所以我也建議說要克與平台業者"},{"start":168.775,"end":195.31,"text":"演算法資訊的揭露義務要求平台要有清晰易懂的語言向外送員揭露以下自動化決策的主要的參數規則跟指令譬如說任務的分配跟調度的系統薪酬的計算的系統績效的評估系統等等那這個呢不是要平台的這一個程式碼而是要知道說他們的這一個演算的邏輯是怎麼樣在保送"},{"start":196.51,"end":216.382,"text":"保障外送員知情權的同時也兼顧平台的營業秘密第二 強化探視前的資訊揭露民進黨黨團的版本也規定了基本報酬不得低於基本的運價還有最低的工資但沒有規範外送員在接單前"},{"start":217.722,"end":240.789,"text":"應該獲得哪些資訊來判斷這次的探測是否符合經濟的效益所以我們也希望說在條文上面能夠增加讓外送員在每次接單前的知情同意權能夠做出一個獨立的判斷保障他的實質的收入第三 確立重大決策的人工審核權"},{"start":243.63,"end":269.957,"text":"民進黨黨團的草案有一個規範第七條跟第十條規範了終止契約的條件還有申訴的制度但也沒有明確要求對演算法做出的重大決定必須經過人工審核所以我也希望說再增訂一款明確賦予外送員要求人工審核的一個權利第四 明確定義工作時間以防堵薪資的漏洞"},{"start":270.737,"end":298.683,"text":"那黨團的這個第三條的草案第三條是規定外送的服務期間從接受訂單到完成訂單與外送員上線期間這個APP上線到下線那也規定說這個外送服務期間的換算的時薪不得低於最低的工資這是一個良好的起點但是我會建議最低報酬的計算基礎除了外送的服務時間的話"},{"start":300.103,"end":325.014,"text":"要考慮納入一定比例的在線的後單的時間確保外送員獲得公平的勞動的對價第五 賦予數據可攜帶以促進集體的協商當然黨團的草案有要求平台業者要保存外送服務契約服務期間報酬清澈的這些紀錄至少五年並應有關機關要求提供調閱"},{"start":327.495,"end":350.913,"text":"那我也希望說在賦予每一位外送員的權利呢可以要求平台提供其個人所有工作數據的完整機器可讀副本完整的探測的歷史收錄的明細所有績效的指標還有顧客評分記錄那可以為未來的這個勞資協商呢提供更堅實的一個基礎那總而言之"},{"start":351.893,"end":367.869,"text":"民进党党团的版本为外送员的权益保障迈出了关键的一步如果能在此基础上面针对上述演算法演算法的具体的规范会让这一步的外送专访更具前瞻性跟时效性"},{"start":368.47,"end":383.737,"text":"那真正在這個數位平台時代呢我們重新平衡平台外送員還有消費者之間的權利關係建構一個更公平透明而且更具人性尊嚴的平台勞動新規範那以上的報告就交各位謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165171","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c664e6b1c2639b80af337fb9388085e3b614279fc610c108cea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:15 - 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院長好委員長院長今年故宮百年本席也非常重視所以百年怨氣那一天本席也親自前往那當然很多人都會講是說這個羅浮宮看到這樣的一個失竊案件那故宮真的一定要小心跟注意那我比較直接的想請教到目前為止我們有沒有去了解說羅浮宮到底為什麼這一次被失竊的主要原因是什麼"},{"start":37.451,"end":64.131,"text":"当然有可是我们不便公开来评论我们透过什么样的管道有跟这边掌握因为其实我想这个是一个就是说如果说有安全机密上的考量的话你可以不便评论但是我觉得最重要的是我们要看到别人的问题我们来思考是说他们有这样的一个状况那我们真的要看到不足的地方就改进避免这样的一个憾事在我们这个发生我们都不希望发生"},{"start":65.272,"end":79.649,"text":"所以我們有沒有確實去了解是說到底為什麼羅浮宮在這一次他有被竊盜的一個狀況對於這個平息的話我們當然有跟委員我們可以給委員可是不便公開的去評論油管的狀況好"},{"start":81.511,"end":99.954,"text":"那其中媒體上有報導其實主要是在於是監視器的實腳以及人員的配置還有安全維護的比例過低這是媒體已經有公開的一個報導的部分那監視器的實腳我想先確認一下到目前為止我們故宮全院來講我們監視器是不是有百分之百的一個掌握"},{"start":101.191,"end":121.123,"text":"故宮的監視器我們強調就是希望做到無死角可是任何的安全防護的話都還有強化的空間所以目前還是有死角沒有死角你剛不是講說安全強化還有空間對 晚上約會的話一定跑不掉一定會被遭到"},{"start":123.533,"end":144.403,"text":"開玩笑好笑嗎不好笑對不起我的意思是說因為故宮的監視器的我在跟你講說現在世界發生了一個重大的竊案過去沒有人想過說羅浮宮會有珠寶被盜然後故宮到底現在我們的監視器有沒有死角"},{"start":145.609,"end":165.908,"text":"你跟我讲男欢女爱约会我们监视器我是强调说故宫监视器的布线基本上来讲的话好 请在会后给本席我们现在故宫的一个监视就相关的一个资料好不好可以公开的请让本席知道第二 安全维护比例过低我们现在一年的预算有多少编列在安全维护上"},{"start":171.84,"end":197.267,"text":"因為預算的編列的話就是這邊的話是總共九千五百多萬那當然這個所謂的九千多萬占故宮的比例來講的話我們的預算比例的話當然如果是用六分之一左右就差不多不到20%嘛"},{"start":199.49,"end":215.177,"text":"對不對那不到20%以現在羅浮宮羅浮宮講說他一年我看了一個資料一年羅浮宮比例其實是比我們他應該將近10億10億對照他的遊客以及他的量體跟我們這比例來講我們的維護有沒有要提升的地方"},{"start":217.302,"end":241.614,"text":"當然要可以提升當然要提升這個統計的基礎要看看到底他的計算所謂的安全維護的話是在哪一部分如果包括所有的人力的部分的話當然那個比例就會提高很多是所以本席才會提醒就既然已經有一個實驗組了那我們相對來講我們要做到滴水不漏不能有這樣的一個事情發生在故宮這一點請院長記在心裡該檢討要檢討是還有第三"},{"start":246.977,"end":269.255,"text":"其實本席也看到 現在1到8月 樂門博物館排行我想您應該也有看到我肯定故宮的同仁的努力跟這次的願慶 我也覺得辦得很好那個五碼圖 我可以看到 我非常感動但現在很真實的數字1到8月 樂門博物館排行前三名"},{"start":270.572,"end":283.836,"text":"第一名也跟我關了當時我在嘉義當文化局長的時候我們就把那個院子給設立下來嘉義勢力博物館第二名佛光山佛陀紀念館第三名中正紀念堂故宮排到第幾名"},{"start":287.898,"end":304.048,"text":"故宮跳來跳去有時候七有時候八甚至會到九滿意嗎不滿意但是我跟委員報告因為各個博物館或是文化機構他們的統計基礎不一樣故宮的話是用售票跟那個"},{"start":305.089,"end":329.759,"text":"跟那个电子监控的方式对 售票或是免费像嘉义势力博物馆它可能是免费不用门票它要门票它有部分的部分它是需要门票但是我讲的是说门票高低也是有一个落差可是在重点是过去大家讲到来台湾看故宫看中华文物这些都是我们应该可以更加行销宣传的部分我只讲一点"},{"start":330.834,"end":356.354,"text":"院長在你心目中現在故宮博物院在全世界排名我們到底以前我們講說我們跟羅浮宮跟大都會博物館跟大英博物館並駕齊驅四大博物館我們有沒有這個氣魄跟這樣子的一個雄心我想增排名的話是沒有辦法去增排名因為現在大的博物館越蓋越大所以那個大小的問題是另外包括說"},{"start":358.704,"end":374.091,"text":"包括说这一个月文物最大的新闻是什么全世界就是大埃及博物馆20年的筹备10亿美金的建设到最后落成39个国家的元首前往"},{"start":374.771,"end":394.262,"text":"為什麼故宮博物院要做那個所謂的新故宮計畫的原因也是因為我們希望說在整個展勝能量跟空間優化上面都可以提升院長如果有雄心壯志或說真的我們要努力計畫出來我們不會有反對就像過去本席一直也是教育文化委員會委員但"},{"start":394.722,"end":413.169,"text":"本席要提的是今天業務報告主席站起來了但本席要提的真的是業務報告見為知著如果說從一個院慶我們行政部門行政院院長沒有到總統沒有到然後到我們現在"},{"start":415.305,"end":428.756,"text":"讨论这些部分你跟我讲男欢女爱我真的没有看到你有意愿或是有雄心想要努力为故宫争取过去光荣的感觉我跟您算旧事啊但我对事不对人"},{"start":429.773,"end":442.22,"text":"我真的希望院長可以好好的努力加油也做多一點表率給我們故宮所有同仁看我還是肯定故宮但我希望故宮能夠做更好謝謝委員的指教"}]}},{"id":"165170","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165170","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c6e9420a0c13b4399b96356aa020e99bb614279fc610c108cba4ee290179ce0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:50:12 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國難國責"},{"start":45.718,"end":63.586,"text":"賴總統當選的時候 曾經有說要停了我請問是 你把他說好嗎你把他說好 所以說要繼續國見國照那個賴總統曾經要喊停那是部長你說服他嗎"},{"start":65.017,"end":72.88,"text":"我那時候沒有要公佈我常常在公佈 因為那時候國安會也很重要的角色嘛是什麼人把他說服的我想這個潛艦國造的部分的建案是不是請海軍來做決定誰說服了賴總統要繼續推動的"},{"start":88.998,"end":115.828,"text":"跟委員報告其實潛艦國造從很早開始從民國九十年開始所以說它是一貫的政策老總統當選的時候要喊停嘛那是誰說服他了報告委員我們沒有掌握到要喊停我們一直都是在因為這是一個必要的潛艦的一個國家不對稱的一個戰略也必須要持續去獲得這個 相信這部分沒辦法給他問這幾日你如果不知道老前帝會不會跟你說"},{"start":118.325,"end":143.318,"text":"來 保證 我請教你海群河喔 已經付多少錢處理了 實際已經支付了多少錢這海群來回好來 各位報告原型建總共是493億那目前的部分我們都已經預約在開始付付多少錢啊現在我們還有將近還有"},{"start":144.724,"end":157.087,"text":"因為測試還沒有在付給台船的預約款有三期是19.2億就是493減到20大概470億左右還有武器的部分沒關係啦對這個部分我們部長我請教你喔台準碰到這世界各國台海有八國這的共營商的合約書部長請教你有看過嗎"},{"start":175.244,"end":189.568,"text":"詳細的那個客戶我沒有...你沒看?很可惜喔,因為伊利登基在法律界,你這麼賴啦應該這個合約書你來看到,我們可以省很多錢啦所以這個部分是由台存跟外國的供應商去處理你也沒看到這個合約,那這樣我們跟台存的合約你有看嗎?"},{"start":202.403,"end":210.614,"text":"我 想這是正經 就是說原型建的部分這是恰到以前的 我知道啦 但是你做補充後 你不想說外面窗戶到風風雨雨 你也拿一本回來看嗎"},{"start":215.056,"end":227.827,"text":"跟委員報告他整個的合約就是海軍有個專案團隊我們有建造組那我們也有合約的這個部分有請專案律師還有兩千八百四十億因為這牽涉到阿伯七代啦所以大家關心的這家的盤子做完做一盤盤子就好了 不然在裡面再做盤子你阿伯再一樣的廁所繼續發生"},{"start":243.922,"end":245.803,"text":"我們台灣的鄉親是不能挽留人的那在採訪的過程中有發生這個問題甚至設置目前現年看來有問題我很慎重請教顧部長在測試的這個海昆號有沒有焊接問題有沒有因為焊接造成的漏水問題"},{"start":270.868,"end":274.371,"text":"沒有沒有 內部有漏水的問題嗎都做過水密的測試 都通過所有的發動機 包括現在沒辦法藏在水底有不可恢復的信訊嗎"},{"start":295.143,"end":312.897,"text":"我沒聽過說你沒聽他們說過所以這裡的信箱都可以修理就對了目前都已經在做多部主機的測試我們在做前行前的最後測試跟裝備的檢診都可以修理都可以恢復所有這裡北角以上這裡的供應商供應的器材料都有合乎我們的檢測標準嗎"},{"start":324.895,"end":330.439,"text":"因為我們所有的驗測的程序都要做 每個程序發現問題就解決問題那現在已經到了"},{"start":345.451,"end":367.501,"text":"延遲就是因為發覺的一些問題就要做幫裝備的調效調效會涉及到不同的這個廠家跟我們專業團隊還有操作人員要共同解決這個問題我們現在的測試的延後在兩個月左右但是我們建造是正常我們現在正在目前都在加緊在做目標是這樣啦但是兩個月後會淡不淡也沒辦法保證是不是"},{"start":371.512,"end":395.292,"text":"我們現在就是 朝這個目標來邁進可以達成使命那就是一月份下潛這個詳細的時間我們會在完成評估之後會再統一跟大家講但是將近不會太久你們這次做下潛測試準備有多少深度"},{"start":396.544,"end":409.547,"text":"就我們之前的公勤的一個說明部分潛航 潛水潛航大概在50公尺上下我聽到5公尺 盲用5公尺報告員不會有這個情形嗎我們會審慎這個安全評估2026年1月份50公尺潛航測試多久時間看狀況"},{"start":423.871,"end":436.456,"text":"現在目前沒有2026年1月前航50公尺這個時間沒有我說我們現在跟原先的設定的delay是兩個月那我們現在正在要說所以遙遙無期我剛才跟你鼓勵"},{"start":440.758,"end":462.804,"text":"前行標準沒有意義啦是是 做好才來遲啦你叫你點了也沒意思啦 發生意外沒人答應去嘛但是有很多細節啦 時間的問題 我要講 針對那一群合我有很多細節要跟你們請教 所以希望你們做好我建議政府單位 你跟臺準"},{"start":467.205,"end":471.935,"text":"合約書 你付台幣470億 我要請教你 台幣已經付給這家公營最多錢"},{"start":479.221,"end":501.382,"text":"現在400多億裡面就建造款的時候應該是368億所以現在因為他還沒有按照這個期程完成這個潛航的節點所以潛航的測試所以會在依照這個節點付款然後在完成潛航測試以後才會再陸續付後面的款項那實際"},{"start":502.883,"end":511.168,"text":"資物給七斤 資物給台船的這個 我想海軍470嘛 再來沒有沒有 台船已經付給這幾個國家的供應商的款項多少 你可以告訴我嗎 這個是機密嗎"},{"start":520.165,"end":531.681,"text":"這不是 這我們後續再 已經付多少那實質上台船本身 移送適當的多個表金 它可以做多個事情你要提供給本縣這樣好不好是 沒問題 是 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院長好 院長你大概是全台灣唯一要來立法院進行業務報告的館長所以也就是我們國家對於故宮之重視而國人對於故宮之期待所以大家對你們的要求會比較高那我今天有幾個問題要跟院長來討論"},{"start":36.807,"end":42.368,"text":"第一個是今年是我們故宮南院的10週年那我們也即將南院要迎來第100萬位的觀眾我們的成績其實我覺得相當的不錯南院也有很多的亮點特展8月剛結束有一檔是我們的江戶服侍會特展其實反應相當的熱烈我們總共參觀人數有到達了14萬人累計起來"},{"start":64.594,"end":77.226,"text":"不過我看到在網路上因為討論很多其實討論聲量高是好事但民眾有一點反應說覺得好可惜官網展了之後想要去買周邊商品結果發現只有一樣商品可以買院長有這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":80.959,"end":107.865,"text":"的確這個案子死掉未及因為展覽是由南宴策劃可是因為行銷在北宴所以對接沒有對接得很好畫冊的部分每次一上架就賣光了文創商品的部分因為主要的重要的紋路很多都是跟日本借展所以並沒有去談商品授權的問題之後我們有根據故宮自由的展品我們開發了20項的品項"},{"start":110.166,"end":136.136,"text":"那當然就是說來的比較晚所以這個部分的話未來故宮我也已經責成同仁在建套會議上面就是說任何一個展覽大的展覽規劃的時候我們都要考慮到就是文創商品的開發的部分每次我們去逛故宮從來沒有空手而歸的一定逛完就很想買周邊商品所以我想這一次這個是有點可惜啦所以未來希望每一次的特展也好我們的展覽都能夠周邊相關的把它規劃好"},{"start":139.657,"end":155.788,"text":"那第二點要請教剛剛前面也有委員關心也就是因應羅浮宮失竊案震驚全球那台灣大家也在關心我們故宮的防護安全是不是做得足夠完備剛剛前面有委員說故宮因為院長有提到全台灣唯一備有警犬"},{"start":157.33,"end":179.469,"text":"來協助我們安全防護的院館剛剛有委員說4隻可能不夠要不要提升到40隻今天要提升我是贊成但40隻真的太多了但我還是要請教一下關於我們故宮的防護的強化的準備因為副院長有說我們做了三層以上的防護你們說明一下我們目前做了哪些的強化的措施呢"},{"start":182.824,"end":195.801,"text":"當然對油管的一個情況的話我們不便評估但是故宮第一個是我們重要的基礎國土設施所以我們在國土安全單位的一個防護之下的話我們"},{"start":196.582,"end":222.516,"text":"是列管然後就要做配合那個整個國土安全的演習那另外的話三層的話就是外圍外圍的話就是驗區要進入驗區的話就鋼燒可以管制那第二層的話就是建物建物的話結構安全然後包括外圍的陽台玻璃這個東西的話我們都有都有安全的監視系統然後跟那個玻璃碎裂的防護另外的話是展廳展廳裡面的話當然"},{"start":223.616,"end":241.075,"text":"展櫃是一個防護 另外的話我們展場的話有服務人員就是有助衛警保全不定期的一個形式這方面的話都是加強溫度的那至於演練的部分的話我們最近規劃陸續在進行就有關安全的演練"},{"start":241.736,"end":263.337,"text":"那當然南宴的話 現在是因為南宴有二館的工程他有一個 譬如說有一個大型的機器那這個大型的機器的話 當然就是說如果進入到那個展館的宴區的話 基本上來講如果沒有經過唾棄的話 不可能 甚至就是說他沒有必要過去所以這部分的話 我們都會強化 都會加強注意"},{"start":265.334,"end":293.403,"text":"我們的這個措施相關都來加強那你們的警犬也是從原來是以巡邏為主你們現在把它增加了要來這個徵收暴獵物這樣的任務嗎過去我講過過去在整個科技增防還不夠完整的時候是有需要用到警犬去做增防可是因為現在的話雖然故宮有一個延期的管制但基本上"},{"start":293.883,"end":311.663,"text":"常態性是一個開放延期所以早上的話民眾就可以來散步所以用警潛基本上來講的話做一種攻擊性的一個防衛基本上現在已經比較少了都是用用科技來增防那警潛的話就轉為一個爆裂物的偵查跟那個"},{"start":312.967,"end":337.887,"text":"一般的刑檢因為因為因為動物還是有比人更敏銳的地方或是說那個科技沒有辦法達到的地方所以這是一個相輔相成爆煉物的徵收確實是工作知青犬他們的這個特色這到現在都很難取代我才剛去台中參訪這個我們關務署的緝毒犬培訓中心現在我們故宮北院裡面有四隻警犬"},{"start":338.607,"end":364.069,"text":"那南院呢 有没有配置因为每一个警犬的话要配置一位零犬员然后如果是说有没有规划未来要在南院来配置有 未来南院的话管成立的时候我们会争取人力然后配置一般来讲的话如果四只是一个小队的话它是会比较完整因为原来也是想说先量一只或者两只好 院长我就是要没错 要特别提醒你"},{"start":364.209,"end":387.798,"text":"因為我們工作群也是有實行時間上限的這個動物的福祉跟他的條件你們還是要去考慮所以你們現在北部四支然後我聽說北部四支可能中間還要來支援南院然後這個還有牽涉到輪班的問題所以請你們要趕快我想南院的警犬要趕快來加速來配置然後我們在執勤的時候也要請你們去注意相關的情況"},{"start":388.778,"end":412.184,"text":"那第三個我要來請教的是從我們疫情之後一直在統計故宮來院的人潮以及他們從國外旅客的話從哪些地方來那韓國一直是我們最大宗的旅客所以我有跟你們關心過我們的韓語導覽人員這個人數非常之少甚至有時候沒有那目前我們有做了哪些規劃加強嗎"},{"start":415.943,"end":439.575,"text":"韓語的志工導覽基本上來講的話的確是故宮一個最大的訓導您現在是有韓語的語音導覽導覽手冊 韓文都有但是人 志工怎麼樣是招募不到嗎有沒有跟相關單位來討論合作現在只有一位我已經責成同仁我們想找譬如說像政大跟文化大學還有文藻"},{"start":440.856,"end":467.312,"text":"他的外学院里面有韩文我们请他们来合作共同讨论怎么样让这个韩语的导览可以可以上线那另外的话因为韩国的旅客增加最主要是团客团客的话他们都自己发展成为一个就说他们自行导览因为韩国的团的话基本上来讲的话他们自己都会配一个导览员所以所以在这方面的话就是虽然我们力有未待但是"},{"start":468.914,"end":480.307,"text":"好像還沒有變成是一個很大的問題但這個部分的話是我們警訊我們要來處理沒錯 因為我看到民間旅行者像Klook KKday他們其實都有推出就是專屬你們故宮的這個韓語的導覽所以代表這個需求是在的"},{"start":484.292,"end":505.771,"text":"那我們現在每年一直在看嘛我們每年目標的參訪人數其實都一直沒有達標所以我想既然韓國很明顯是一個潛力市場我們應當是可以針對韓國旅客韓文的友善相關的措施可以再做更完善一點仔細的這個規劃來去吸引更多的人潮我們會來強化好 謝謝院長 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因為我現在講的你們有沒有去檢討 你在預算保留這麼多保留這麼多 沒有辦法執行然後你繼續編列這個大筆的預算那你繼續編列大筆預算 其結果你又沒有辦法執行 你又繼續的保留那事實上就是排擠其他的啊"},{"start":244.318,"end":259.503,"text":"包委員 我們的確有去檢討在第一批我們採購三規軍用無人機的這個部分中間的確遇到一些國內產能技術性的困難所以我們未來無人機的大量償單的這個規劃的部分是由軍備局"},{"start":260.883,"end":263.805,"text":"來做委制 那針對我們的需求跟國內的能力做一個通販性的規劃在國內產業具體能夠生產的前提之下來規劃未來這個案子我上次在執行部長的時候因為你們現在是無人載具你這1000億包含無人機還有無人艇嘛"},{"start":279.292,"end":282.416,"text":"那時候我就說啦 你這麼龐大的這些預算其實所謂的無人機國家隊 其實現在當然就是說現在是鞠躬產業那包含你這個無人艇 現在也是只有台船 隆德跟中信"},{"start":295.351,"end":312.303,"text":"這三家在做嘛那你能不能增加其他的業者進來我在上星期的質詢也是一樣所以我的意思說我們今天的無人武器無人載具你們不要動不動就以所謂的需求任性等等但是一定要去檢討你的預算有沒有在繼續保留的問題那另外我想請教部長最近呢在網路"},{"start":324.271,"end":327.074,"text":"熱議 就是我們現在這個M1A2T這個戰車的亮相結果呢 我們的備章出現了Taiwan Army"},{"start":336.206,"end":340.068,"text":"可是很多人講說你去中華最後變成去中華民國化這不是國軍嗎這不是國軍我們國家的名稱不是中華民國嗎為什麼不用ROC Army怎麼會變成台灣Army如果你今天看美國美國不然就是US Army不然就是US Navy不然的話也是放在美國的國旗呀那我請問一下這個備章是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":365.293,"end":381.343,"text":"跟委員報告我想最主要這是一個紀念備章那M1A2T這個後面這個T就是專門被台灣打造的那您講的中華民國陸軍這個在我們的彌彩湖的左胸前這個中華民國陸軍一直存在"},{"start":382.216,"end":390.978,"text":"那你但是你這個一樣是配在我們國軍的備章上啊你這個是怎麼樣你所謂的紀念備章是怎麼樣是商品還是怎麼樣還是紀念小物是這個意思嗎陳軍使的一個為了做為陳軍的一個紀念備章那以後佩戴是什麼以後佩戴是什麼備章"},{"start":408.595,"end":415.29,"text":"呃 這個備章呃 佩戴它佩戴備章啊所以我就問你啊 你到底是紀念小物還是怎麼樣 吉祥物"},{"start":416.94,"end":440.937,"text":"包委員 簡單的說 剛才部長已經說明了這是一個紀念備章 它主要在陳軍典禮上面為了彰顯官兵宦訓的辛勞與榮譽那它就是基本上就配發給官兵收職所以ROC2民民有榮譽感我們永久佩戴的其實就是我們胸前的中華民國陸海空軍還有包含到我們右臂上面懸掛的中華民國國旗這是不會改變的"},{"start":441.417,"end":444.239,"text":"我希望就是說今天在政治上動不動再搞這個去中化最後去來去去變成去中華民國化這個是在國際裡面我覺得這是絕對絕對不要這樣子搞法的好不好那全世界也是這樣他會搞出一個什麼NYARMY嗎不是嘛他還是要有國家至上的榮譽感嘛"},{"start":467.401,"end":487.638,"text":"跟委員報告 我想剛剛講了明彩虎的左胸有中華民國陸軍那右臂的備章是國旗那另外聯兵三營裡面它也有專屬的備章在584裡的都會有一個專屬的備章那這個當然就是為了M1A2T這個成軍的時候的一個紀念的備章我想這個已經多次的說明了"},{"start":488.137,"end":501.689,"text":"但是也是還是引起外界高度的質疑其實重點就是不要去中化搞到變成去中華民國化去國家化這一點是非常非常重要的好 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接續由我來實施報告因應無人載具大量投入現今的戰場我國軍如何建構無人載具的部隊以及訓練規劃裝備籌貨等具體做法進行專案報告首先無人載具已經被廣泛運用於現代戰爭與衝突中展現作戰價值與運用的彈性可充分發揮不對稱作戰的效益"},{"start":2099.09,"end":2109.205,"text":"國軍的無人載具發展是以科技取代人力火力取代兵力的原則並且朝向量大 價廉 可消耗 急增急供等方向的規劃"},{"start":2110.575,"end":2138.313,"text":"平時是分擔國軍各部隊執行海空監偵及巡邏等耗時高風險的任務來降低人員的負荷跟高架裝備的損耗暫時則是支援防衛作戰的任務搭配主要的武器實施精準的打擊以拒止 遲制或擾亂敵的犯台行動迫使敵作戰任務失敗並且放棄奪台的企圖接著包括作戰運用的規劃"},{"start":2139.914,"end":2159.561,"text":"國軍依據防衛固守重成嚇阻的軍事戰略建構多域巨子任性防衛的作戰準備方向建立各軍種的無人機專責部隊並依照作戰任務劃分連戰戰術及戰鬥等三個層級的兵火力運用首先在連戰層級執行長時間遠航程的台灣周邊聯合海空域徵收監視與攻擊任務"},{"start":2167.216,"end":2186.369,"text":"在戰術層級在戰時執行對敵海上跟登陸部隊的目標徵收識別並誘使敵船艦船團消耗防空飛彈增加我方的反艦飛彈突穿成功公算以協力聯合反登陸 濱海跟探案作戰"},{"start":2188.24,"end":2209.025,"text":"第三個部分在戰鬥層級是採即時的徵收及識別延伸原建制武器的攻擊跟警戒距離精確標準 標定目標位置進行即時的攻擊縮短作戰反應時間協力遂行兵海 探案戰鬥 重生防禦以及持久作戰接著報告訓練的規劃"},{"start":2211.228,"end":2223.601,"text":"國軍持續完善無人載具訓練的體系依據部隊的類型裝備的形式以及其所負的任務訂定了訓練政策訓練的階段培訓機制準則發展及訓測的標準等"},{"start":2226.96,"end":2241.683,"text":"以明確各項訓練的規範使各軍種的無人載具部隊在戰技 戰鬥以及戰術整合運用上具備支援作戰的能力現行專責的軍種無人機訓練機構既有陸軍的無人機訓練中心海軍的專長訓練中心陸戰隊的專長訓練中心以及空軍 航院的技訓中心等四個專責單位"},{"start":2252.626,"end":2258.673,"text":"集中資源在戰術層級來實施高階訓練那既有無人機師資班等10類以擴充訓練能量另規劃在第1、2類的兼徵型無人機的飛行訓練則是由部隊的師資來去師訓並簽證以擴增三軍部隊無人機的基礎戰力"},{"start":2274.025,"end":2300.384,"text":"另外依照基礎訓練、專長訓練、駐地訓練、基地訓練以及聯合演訓與後備教育召集等階段採循序漸進、逐步強化的方式來推展以培訓人員取得專長的證書強化操作技能、任務規劃、戰術運用以及戰力整合的能力滿足各類型部隊的戰力需求以因應未來無人載具的作戰型態"},{"start":2301.977,"end":2324.451,"text":"接著報告裝備的籌貨依照國防法第22條結合民間的力量發展國防科技工業獲得武器裝備是以自製為優先同步尋求國內廠商採偽製研發以及商購的方式來籌貨武器並提升自主修維護的能量落實國防自主的政策以增強自我防衛的能力"},{"start":2325.612,"end":2345.613,"text":"去年2月1日已成立國防創經小組依創新作戰的概念國外實戰的經驗及國防科技的發展趨勢持續與國內外國防新創廠商交流聚焦民間成熟的技術研議各種可形成戰力的方案使國軍因應戰場需求的變化創造作戰優勢"},{"start":2347.154,"end":2352.977,"text":"據此國軍無人載具籌購採自治優先軍商購為輔的原則對國內無法自治獲得藉由國外現貨市場的軍商購等多元途徑來採購縮短籌貨的期程加速提升戰力"},{"start":2363.479,"end":2377.678,"text":"另外依照國軍的聯合戰力規劃要項以及五年兵力整建計畫的建案期程以逐年獲得兼征型 既有戰術進程 目獲 圍型 陸用型 艦載型以及兼征等六型"},{"start":2378.479,"end":2404.37,"text":"攻擊型具有劍翔 近鋒 彈簧刀300及Artis 600等4型並為中科院籌建遙控無人機防禦商購外導無人機反制以及部隊可吸式的無人機反制等系統部署運用未來將持續增加影像識別 抗干擾及多重導控等軟硬體的關鍵技術發展建立國內自主研發以及產製的能量來達成國防與經濟雙贏的目標"},{"start":2408.629,"end":2431.009,"text":"最後國軍為適應科技創新發展與現代戰場的變化積極引進民間無人載具新興科技及現貨市場的裝備以民間無限的潛力創新思維及專業經驗協助開發軍事作戰領域所需的技術與產品加速國防創新與自主韌性並朝向新訓練"},{"start":2431.91,"end":2443.05,"text":"新思維新裝備新科技等建軍整備發展快速建立強韌的嚇阻戰力以提升國軍整體防衛作戰效益以上報告敬請各位委員先進指導謝謝"},{"start":2449.121,"end":2465.788,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝昭偉我們有請顧部長"},{"start":2479.095,"end":2479.375,"text":"請顧部長部長早是 陳委員好"},{"start":2487.386,"end":2514.885,"text":"部長無人載具不但是我們現代這個戰場廣泛被使用的一種器具那也是我們建構不對稱戰力極其重要的一環那我想就無人機的這個籌貨裝備和相關的運用規劃來和部長您做一個討論那先前行政院在這個跨部會的專案會議當中擬定無人機的推動方向以這個產業發展還有國防自主那還有一個民主"},{"start":2516.106,"end":2544.139,"text":"這個供應鏈三大政策為目標並且以推動我們軍民共規等五大策略來辦理那也有報載提及這個軍民共規就是平戰轉換還有軍民通用那國軍和各部會所使用的這個無人機如果在共同規格下來生產暫時的時候這個動員不用太多時間就可以投入到戰場來使用那我想請問部長"},{"start":2544.659,"end":2557.07,"text":"以軍民共歸的這個規劃來建置我們無人機是國防部目前已經在落實的一個政策目標嗎還是我們已經將這個無人機的這個屏障轉換已經納入在規劃當中"},{"start":2558.656,"end":2581.588,"text":"現在就是說我們陸續會再籌購這些相關的無人機那無人機的機體的介面上面我們希望是民間的機體的介面跟我們軍方採購的機體介面是一致的那如果這樣的機體介面有一個共規的話那麼日後再做這個平站轉換的時候應該就是會比較就比較沒有問題也就是說"},{"start":2587.191,"end":2606.068,"text":"他本來是民用的嘛那要把他轉回軍用因為有一個共規的集體介面那我們要裝上相關的火工的配件那我們就可以馬上來轉成作為軍用具有攻擊能力就可以直接轉換"},{"start":2608.151,"end":2619.547,"text":"在國防部這次的報告當中我們也有提到依照國防法第22條結合民間的力量除了籌貨武器之外也要提升自主的修復"},{"start":2621.68,"end":2640.571,"text":"維護的這個能量來落實我們國防自主的一個政策那針對這個無人機後勤維保的這個規劃在今天的這個報告當中似乎是沒有這個提及是不是請部長說明我們接下來購入的這個大量無人機對於自主維保的這個能量跟人力是否充足"},{"start":2643.843,"end":2664.012,"text":"我想最主要的觀念當然就是說因為我們籌購的方向還是有多元因為我們有為私製的那有商購的然後也有這個商購也有分成對國內商購或者是對國外商購那我想"},{"start":2665.532,"end":2686.787,"text":"主要的政策目標應該當然都是說我們希望能夠強化我們在地的生產能量依照烏克蘭的經驗告訴我們你要能夠落地生產那麼再維持這個戰時的韌性應該就能夠確保所以這個後勤的維保的這個部分當然也是我們關注的重點"},{"start":2688.543,"end":2699.708,"text":"當然要看如果是屬於我們在國內自製的那這個維保的部分就會能量會比較沒有問題而且可以再生產的能力也高"},{"start":2701.38,"end":2722.544,"text":"無人機要看他一到五類看不同的狀況有一些是屬於消耗品有一些是屬於像四五類這種那這個是非常高價的那我們也設法要在這裡建立一定的維修的能量那一二三類的話在某種程度上面如同一個消耗品如果他"},{"start":2723.24,"end":2749.382,"text":"尤其是攻擊型他可能打出去他就沒有再回來所以我們會有不同的一個您剛問的這個問題其實要看他的這個用途類別然後他籌購的來源然後我想會以這個維持一個在暫時具有一個韌性作為一個最高的政策指導目標細分用途再來做區分"},{"start":2750.888,"end":2779.389,"text":"那從這次的書面報告當中也看到我們對於無人機訓練體系的建構以及我們所需的相關資源也陸續到位尤其是陸海空軍都分別建置了專責的訓練機構那有關各軍種所建置的無人機專責的訓練機構在報告當中我們所提及的集中資源是什麼樣的資源那又有哪些部隊需要實施高階訓練是不是就能夠公開的部分"},{"start":2780.089,"end":2780.613,"text":"部長可以簡單的訓示"},{"start":2783.775,"end":2812.585,"text":"委員好 我是巡視次長跟委員報告有關這個集中資源的部分就是要運用我們這個軍種的專責機構它包括它的專業教官還有它的場地 還有設備還有我們整個流路我們必須訓練形成重點那我們希望把這些資源用在後續的所謂高階的訓練就是攻擊型還有中大型的艱增無人機因為它的訓練上必須要去系統的整合或多人的操作以上的說明"},{"start":2813.473,"end":2822.059,"text":"好 那我們負責防衛的防衛首都的這個憲兵也有構置一批這個無人機目前還沒有自己的訓練機構嗎"},{"start":2827.715,"end":2854.075,"text":"委員好 我是憲兵參謀長向您報告我們相關的專責訓練機構規劃那首先報告那個我們總人的培訓其實本部從去年到今年為止我們送訓的民航局的相關班隊以及陸軍有軍的無人機訓練中心和本部置訓目前已培養了282員具有簽證合格的操作所那這操作所裡面還有11員是奉"},{"start":2854.815,"end":2875.311,"text":"已經核定一個高階的師製教官那我們也預劃在115年在我們本部的憲兵訓練中心來開設一個常態的無人機班隊預劃每年來培養250元的操作所那這些操作所也會作為我們各部隊來擴訓的基礎手能 以上報告好"},{"start":2877.64,"end":2896.571,"text":"還有在今年3月份的時候也曾經詢問過部長這個無人機操作會不會納入教召部長您當時也回應說應該要納入因為這個14天的教召時間比較充裕也符合人人都能夠操作無人機的一個目標"},{"start":2899.452,"end":2914.613,"text":"8月份青年日報的這個報導有看到然後已經有教招的這個招援實施操作的多軸的這個無人機那針對目前我們無人機納入教招的課程之後訓練的目標以及初步的這個成效"},{"start":2915.134,"end":2939.659,"text":"是不是請部長簡要說明一下委員好 謝謝委員指導有關於這個教招的部分訓練的部分我區分兩個部分向委員來做報告第一個部分就是我們的後備部隊上一次跟委員報告了我們會接裝850架左右的無人機我們在今年10月份的時候"},{"start":2940.759,"end":2954.731,"text":"10月16號我們第一梯次450架我們已經接裝了然後同步我們在8月份在接裝之前我們就已經參加了偽商的廠商的相關的課程"},{"start":2955.972,"end":2966.675,"text":"這個課程區分為基本跟高級兩個課程然後基本的部分總共19梯次目前我們已經完訓了有5梯次227元那11月3號開始我們會開始進入高級的這個訓練的梯次"},{"start":2976.431,"end":2995.537,"text":"那第二部分我要向委員報告因為後備部隊教召的部分我們在後備部隊14天的課程裡面我們有檢討出來然後從10月1號開始教召部隊就已經有兩個小時的無人機操作的課程了我們會持續再做 謝謝委員好"},{"start":2997.418,"end":3014.017,"text":"那另外這個中共的這個無人機對我外離島這個洗腦已經非常頻繁在上個月剛發布的這個114年國防報告書當中針對這個中共無人機洗腦外離島的行為軍方目前訂定了四個步驟"},{"start":3015.519,"end":3030.749,"text":"印儲的流程會動用干擾槍 步槍 機槍以及軟硬殺的方式來擊落無人機那我們現行應對無人機洗腦的印儲要領為什麼還沒有納入反無人機系統的運用"},{"start":3033.026,"end":3056.211,"text":"我想國軍已經開始建立我們本島還有外島的這個一個是無人機防禦就是說本島跟外島的這個系統有12套這個是已經建置的那後續還會再依序來建置這個我們本島跟外島的這個無人機的反制系統"},{"start":3057.987,"end":3074.122,"text":"就目前還沒有建置完成嗎還在進行當中就是說相關的這個我想安裝的地點可能不太適宜公布但是基本上來講就是說我們現行的在"},{"start":3077.132,"end":3105.203,"text":"UDS的部分大概是有10套吧9套 沒關係 部長可公開說明的說明對 我想私下再跟委員做一些說明然後陸續還會再就一些適當的地方我們來進行安裝好 那就我們所了解到的我們陸軍所採購26套固定式的這個無人機反制系統其中第一梯13套應該在今年10月上旬已經交裝了並且在這個驗收合格之後"},{"start":3105.723,"end":3123.289,"text":"就可以接續部署而第二梯的這個部分則是在明年交裝那我想請教部長國防部所採購的無人機反制系統在交裝跟部署的這個期程是否都很順利那這個陸軍第一梯13套的這個裝備是否已經都部署完成"},{"start":3126.248,"end":3147.401,"text":"委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一梯的確在10月份已經依照契約和節點已經完成了第一梯13套的膠裝那我們要對它實施一個是目視驗收還有一個性能的驗收性能的驗收也在10月底完成目前我們預計在明天會出具整個的驗測報告"},{"start":3148.542,"end":3155.457,"text":"那會是驗測報告的結果來決定後續的部署或是其他的這個建案的程序以上報告"},{"start":3156.226,"end":3180.599,"text":"好 那在今年九月的台北航太國防展當中也有許多的廠商秀出自家的研發成果其中不乏來自國外的廠商的反無人機系統的展示國內廠商也是百家爭鳴包括中科院自己所研發的相關系統據說也相當有程度的一個進展那對於反制無人機的系統採購"},{"start":3181.946,"end":3209.649,"text":"也是會以我們這個國內自治的這個系統為主要優先採購的目標嗎我們會有不同的籌貨管道是會有不同的籌貨管道就是國內外的現貨市場上面合乎我們這個作戰需求的我們都會納入評估符合我們需求的不限國內外不限不限國內也那個就國內外的現貨市場上面我們認為可以儘速籌購的我們都會納為我們的"},{"start":3211.49,"end":3231.564,"text":"選購了一個標的好那另外可吸式無人機的這個反制系統根據報載公開越南的相關資料顯示國防部想要這個被動偵測範圍4公里那可反制範圍要2公里以上的設備還需要能夠放置在小型這個車輛載運也要滿足車輛還有船艦等各式的這個載具運用那針對這個可吸式的這個反制"},{"start":3239.056,"end":3258.976,"text":"可惜式的這個無人機反制系統我們國防部籌獲的這個規劃以及建制的這個需求跟運用手段這個是不是請部長還是參謀長檢要說明一下我想現在我們進行這個還在進行一個建案的作業我想後續就如果有可以"},{"start":3259.597,"end":3277.685,"text":"可以公開的時候我們再來公開因為現在是依照相關的節點來管制執行所以還沒有最後完成好 那後續我們這個無人載具的相關籌貨還有人才培訓都需要加緊腳步那這部分就請我們國防部還有我們相關的這個"},{"start":3280.566,"end":3304.152,"text":"這個陸海空軍我們對於我們所作戰需求我們一定要做好最周全的一個這個準備讓我們這個所有的軍官在我們武器使用還有相關設備使用上能夠無虞我相信這才是保護我們國家最好的一個方式是 我們會來就審慎的規劃好 謝謝部長 謝謝蔡總統以上"},{"start":3311.596,"end":3314.778,"text":"謝謝接下來請陳永康陳委員上台諮詢好主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3341.608,"end":3357.994,"text":"部長早安是陳委員辛苦剛剛聽完了報告我們持正面肯定來支持它的運用但是我們對任何國際情勢說國內情勢兩岸情勢我們常常用講不對稱的一個方法"},{"start":3358.974,"end":3376.111,"text":"其实我们对局势来看有主观的有客观的有宏观的有微观的有乐观的有悲观的有前瞻的有反思的所以在这个八个条件下单独讲不对称这是战术性的不对称"},{"start":3376.972,"end":3404.312,"text":"战略性对方的实力他的钱财数量远超过我们因此在今天的报告里面有三项提到了就是说连战的运用那这个是通常是高阶的那这个会整合到国军整体的系统也就是未来的台湾之盾那个指管情资分享甚至到了这个战术层级也要纳入这个系统"},{"start":3405.168,"end":3424.636,"text":"那我们现在谈到的是战斗层级战斗层级大概使用基本上就是地面部队为主了那这个部分我想请陆军参谋长还有直通电军的参谋长因为这里面有一些技术性的问题要救教各位各位看一下我们的UAV的"},{"start":3431.653,"end":3441.406,"text":"这个链路的基本原则是指管链路与硬体要符合不对称作战这个是假设我在战场内"},{"start":3442.947,"end":3462.427,"text":"海滩附近及城镇这个是优势在我这边这叫不对称如果离开台湾海岸多少里那种属于战术型或者是连战型的那个是指管架构是不同的这里面我们考虑到你看涵盖的范围指管畅通讯息优势"},{"start":3463.248,"end":3473.705,"text":"战场的韧性我们有个核心的议题就是国防部依威胁提出军用频道需求这个要跟国家通讯传播委员会NCC"},{"start":3474.841,"end":3493.204,"text":"跟主管全国通讯频道跨部会协商满足国军的基本的任性需求不是买了装备大家训练操作但是在很多属于国内整体频道频宽这个东西的条件下要早一点"},{"start":3494.085,"end":3514.753,"text":"跟NCC要他切割出来这个要拨给国军如果照承评时期他拨给你的非常有限各位看你下面的两个我们的前提是GPS没有被干扰第二个WiFi也没有被干扰那这种情况下语音通信频道的"},{"start":3516.131,"end":3538.339,"text":"是8到12KB然后中等解析度10公分高等解析度10公分中高解析度10到30公分低阶的是1公尺那传输的速度不同前提是如果到了城镇作战WiFi的固定转播台都断掉了"},{"start":3539.638,"end":3551.549,"text":"這個時候要有中繼台那這個中繼台的需求車輛是在哪一個建軍的項目下通知電軍在這個地方有提供這個參考嗎有"},{"start":3563.392,"end":3589.92,"text":"鮑委員 站棍市長這邊向委員報告我們目前就戰術層級的部分我們在擴大微波通信車的構置那在這一次行政院的特別預算裡面我們也已經把衛星備援的這個部分加進來那後續在116到117的這個部分我們還會在全面檢討因應新式武器裝備它的傳輸需求所需要的通信裝備"},{"start":3592.092,"end":3609.09,"text":"各位看右下角像我们的全球之音这个是军售的本来就有卫星的频道本来就有国军的专用频道所以它的解析度是高解析度而且它已经可以传输率到500Mbps"},{"start":3610.231,"end":3632.101,"text":"这个跟我们国造的毫不关联现在我们比较关切的是陆军在地面用不管是宪兵后备这个频道就像你刚刚讲的如果现有的成平时期你做训练都不成问题但是如果因为一旦两岸冲突发生部分的地面通讯站"},{"start":3633.121,"end":3658.747,"text":"固定台都没有了所以中继台你刚刚讲的那个是非常重要因为那个东西的条件下我们有主观 客观我们有宏观 微观我们不要用乐观指数你要做我们讲就是最坏的scenario的情况下我这个时候的支撑度还到什么时候这个时候不只是操作训练最主要是通讯的训练"},{"start":3661.353,"end":3681.78,"text":"现在看看我们的运用我们有连战成绩战术成绩连战跟战术成绩国军这是长期规划而且数量控制通讯频道都有做分割现在关心的就是战斗成绩这个卫星刚刚您提到了卫星服务那个频道请问是one web公司吗是不是one web"},{"start":3689.127,"end":3707.742,"text":"包委員好 我是通知市長包委員您剛講的是哪一個我講的就是Wi-Fi沒有了目前OneWeb是用在民用的部分並沒有用在軍用的部分那軍用的部分是ST2 就是這個週星二號"},{"start":3708.871,"end":3731.77,"text":"但是你現在在這個預算編列裡面這是自通電軍的 新式衛星租用服務新式衛星租用是特別預算裡面將來會新籌購一個高通量的衛星那是另外一型衛星 並不是one wave我知道 可是你一共兩年嘛 52套加1000套嘛因為你並沒有地面站 你只是地面接收點"},{"start":3733.517,"end":3746.075,"text":"是有兩個地面機動的接收站其他的都是接收點沒有錯對 其他是接收點那因為你這個網管中心只有兩套是 兩個網管中心對 但是你在暫時的時候你確認你這1052套夠用嗎"},{"start":3749.549,"end":3765.424,"text":"目前我們是以最大量的需求來評估那將來會陸陸續續增加最大量的需求是指地面無人機在單位時間內使用的數量嗎"},{"start":3766.809,"end":3781.232,"text":"你不是比方讲你这个四万八千多加五这个多少量你最大的起飞量在使用的过程中间你要有东西足够support它是因为你现在编的是46亿元这是"},{"start":3783.138,"end":3799.745,"text":"裝備設施現在建立租金可是兩年後你要用要付錢那個陸軍要編進預算就是陳平時期不用衛星是正常時期那你就是中華電信 遠傳你那個SIM卡你要付錢的所以這個要早點規劃你編的架設就樂觀看"},{"start":3803.846,"end":3825.883,"text":"几万价次但是你在单位时间内可能使用的是数十价几百价但这个可是你每一价你都要付钱你到时候再换卡是比较来不及的所以提请大家注意成租的费用跟建立量能的初步投资到后面正常使用运用的时候"},{"start":3826.926,"end":3847.069,"text":"包括海军还有其他的优先他们讲的用的是C-band但是现在并不在我们国军分配给它的频段内那也是要用钱的所以在国防产业上我们支持无人机的国内制造但是大家都不告诉你用它的飞机现在买的是硬体到时候要花钱的"},{"start":3847.569,"end":3865.467,"text":"所以你传回来的影像解析度在某种情况下只能用语音通讯那你暂时的时候你用AI先建置内存某个区用哪些飞机因为乌克兰跟我们的状况不一样是乌克兰城镇之间30公里城市之间100公里"},{"start":3868.151,"end":3890.033,"text":"除了公路以外就是丘陵地面看到的不是乌克兰的就是俄军的所以看着就打消耗型非常有效在台湾来讲目标识别尤其是高楼林地你无法从一个比方讲200公尺高看到一个东西就一头垂直下去所以在训练过程中的这个"},{"start":3891.081,"end":3915.861,"text":"场景的模拟这个我们以前很早就也玩过这个东西了这各种的系统我们都用过像我也在国外用过OneWeb控制系统我只是提醒成平时期所有通讯可靠的时候到暂时你的限制因素发生了你要预估你哪些能力不能发挥而不是装备不好是不能发挥这个要提醒注意"},{"start":3918.464,"end":3945.099,"text":"我们讲训练是过程 实用才是目的怎么样要把我们的准则教范 训场跟科目要融合这个才能满合实战的条件这个频率分配无人载具的活动空间含高度跟横距会不会产生单位跟单位之间的牵连或甚至说干扰到了因为分配的东西很有限如何在有限的资源下运用"},{"start":3945.979,"end":3964.229,"text":"以满足无人载具在不对称作战的需求这个是准则叫犯对应你不能用你的无人机去对抗它的无人机它数量太大但是在岛上有限条件下我们应该有优势但这个优势建立在你要有很多机动中信台而且假设"},{"start":3965.407,"end":3987.547,"text":"GPS失效WiFi没有那就是刚刚你讲的要靠其他的卫星频道来提供这时候数量会大幅减少所以你在写想定的时候要纳入你的作战的计划里面准则叫范还有授权到什么地方假设是联机以下的看到就打那你的操作手就要负责任了创错目标了长官不扛的"},{"start":3988.484,"end":4014.709,"text":"如果是远程大型目标你可能连营长甚至旅长这种那这个远程的都是空军跟海军在用在海上那个长官来负责那现在就是无人机的干扰器属于独立系统会不会干扰到像特别强调金马祖外岛的运用有限运用下无人机不对称的作战需求那如何与防空识别整合为同步行"},{"start":4015.629,"end":4030.726,"text":"因為我們前兩天就提了台灣之盾這裡面有個很重要的問題就是參數資料庫要納入AI它才幫你判這個跟賣你無人機的廠商並沒有關係所以尤其是風群攻擊"},{"start":4031.767,"end":4047.766,"text":"敌方的风情里面一定有一个反辐射你在干扰他他就创你所以并不是全部是来对地面目标他有一个是反辐射的那这个时候我们如何反反制将来这个还有一段时间持续精进发展那中科院也会扮演一个最后的角色"},{"start":4050.439,"end":4065.996,"text":"這個是今天早上的我還是強調一下今天早上進來的目標比較少紅色圈圈是中共的商船藍色是我們的商船那因為剛剛提到了這個無人機在外島部署做監控也是一個很重要的"},{"start":4066.897,"end":4091.542,"text":"工具但是勤之的回饋是不是每天早上我們的城會都會把金門外島所有的船做一個報告監控這個時候不管是金防部或是海巡署它的這個有用的水面的海警海巡的船隻甚至配合我們地區的無人機去做識別判斷這個整合進來才會成為未來的所謂的台灣"},{"start":4095.609,"end":4104.882,"text":"台湾之盾但台湾之盾整合上是一个很重要的目标也有很大的挑战我希望我们要大家来努力请部长做一点指导跟回应"},{"start":4105.852,"end":4130.801,"text":"我想台灣之盾的確的重點就是在於那個相關的整合所有的偵測器的整合然後到這個確定目標識別之後那或做一個適當的火力協調分配然後整合到所有的shooter整合所有的shooter然後來適時的來進行這個適當的一個回應我想這是整個我們現在的一個目標"},{"start":4131.681,"end":4160.787,"text":"那現在就是說要如何將所有的sensor整合在一起然後再利用AI的輔助來做適當的一個活力協調分配然後再運用各式的suites來進行回擊我想這個是一個挑戰我們會陸續來努力來完成謝謝部長這個大家都在努力但是挑戰也是非常艱鉅的要大家一起來克服"},{"start":4162.642,"end":4164.383,"text":"謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長是 羅委員"},{"start":4189.114,"end":4195.122,"text":"部長好 部長今年的漢關演習澎湖馬宮基地連續四天遭到不明無人機的侵擾其實如果把時間往前推的話在111年8月的時候金馬外島跟金門的二膽島其實也是連續遭到小型無人機的侵擾"},{"start":4207.256,"end":4229.85,"text":"那我記得去年的時候本席曾經也請教過就是說當國軍國軍是如何偵測到這個入侵的無人機那時候國防部給我的這個回答是讓我非常的驚訝就是說我們是用目測那作為一個科技大導這個回答真的讓本席真的不可思議那當然國防部那時也有回應就是說其實我們正在建制"},{"start":4230.23,"end":4232.792,"text":"這個雷達的這個監測的這個系統我在想其中應該有包含就是剛剛陳俊宇委員所提到的這個就是26套的這個反制系統其實這個反制系統的話是到今年的這個元滅份才招標出去"},{"start":4249.122,"end":4264.835,"text":"不然應該是在今年的12月31號以前必須要履約完畢可是我剛剛有聽到國防部的回應就是說其實我們目前只交付了12套剩下來的可能就是明年才會交付完畢等於說整個時間是比原先的履約的時間可能就是會往後延"},{"start":4269.198,"end":4280.252,"text":"那我本身想了解的就是說那除了陸軍司令部呢這26套的防治系統那我也知道就是說空軍司令部另外有辦理就是由空軍司令部來統籌辦理的這個高達43億遙控無人機防疫系統"},{"start":4285.658,"end":4307.455,"text":"我想了解一下就是說空軍司令部的這一套43億的這個遙控無人機防禦系統跟陸軍司令部的這一套到底它的區別在哪裡空軍司令部的這43億的這些系統是建置在哪裡因為是統籌辦理是不是被分佈到各軍種這個部分可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":4310.902,"end":4323.834,"text":"委員好 我是空軍司令部參謀長跟委員報告我們空軍建置的主要是固定式的還有一個就是自動電軍一個機動式的無人機反制系統主要陸軍跟空軍的部分是建置在機場"},{"start":4324.975,"end":4347.006,"text":"那這裡面包含兩個部分一個是干擾槍我們在112年已經籌獲310支干擾槍已經配發到各單位那固定式的總共有19座那在各個基地為主固定式的那機動式的是以自動電軍的機動載台為主那這有5套總共是24套那目前建案的進度都是正常"},{"start":4348.135,"end":4372.39,"text":"所以這個部分的話空軍司令部建設其實還是以干擾槍的建設因為你剛才提到這部分不是 干擾槍分兩個部分一個是干擾槍另外一個是固定式的在基地裡面它有一個固定式的一個監測主動被被動的監測的還有干擾的一個裝備這在基地裡面是一個比較大範圍所以說它的監測是可以接收到"},{"start":4374.219,"end":4395.329,"text":"四種頻率就是包含了你在操作的GPS頻率影像傳輸的頻率還有遙控的頻率這個被動接收到之後它可以比較精確的定位出它的方位然後在我們的主控站基地的主控站就可以看到無人機從哪個方向來在什麼位置所以說建置之後我們各基地的反應都非常好"},{"start":4395.689,"end":4419.405,"text":"他很清楚的可以知道現在有哪個無人機在什麼位置然後他上面會有一個主動式的干擾槍由基地的控制中心遙控的去做一個干擾那這個部分我們空軍司令部我們所辦理的這個無人機防疫系統案這個部分的話是都已經建置完成目前正在建置中到明年的年底會全數完成"},{"start":4419.825,"end":4443.444,"text":"到明年底會全數完成就對了因為我不太了解這兩個建制的內容跟差別是在哪裡再來的話就跟委員報告因為剛剛兩個是不同一個是要在後續建制一個有一部分在九套是已經建制完成了這個部分的話 按照我們現在"},{"start":4444.986,"end":4449.993,"text":"時勢的乾燥的來看的話是只要是進入紅區的話我們都能夠有效的驅離這樣"},{"start":4452.163,"end":4476.198,"text":"對 因為我現在部長講到一個重點就是接下來我想要請問的我知道目前的這個SOP的流程是比如說我們必須要識別監控告警通報安全確認防禦設計等等我們在針對這些入侵到營區或是到一些機敏區域的這些無人機我們現在還是要跑這些流程嗎"},{"start":4477.159,"end":4496.938,"text":"目前還是要跑這個流程嗎會跑完流程的話早就已經被無人機早就已經收證已經完畢然後就離開了我們是針對這些機敏區域我們還是必須要跑這些SOP流程嗎鮑委員我們我是座議事次長針對無人機的防禦我們之前有說明我們說要區分主被動還有區分軟硬砂"},{"start":4500.302,"end":4523.304,"text":"當然能夠建置所有的自動化的反制系統包含主動被動的偵測以及主動的干擾那是我們期盼隨著建案的作業以及預算的獲得我們會逐次去建立那另外在部隊防護的本身這是一個基本訓練也就是說未來在戰時我們可能在不同的場域交戰或是我們的系統的功能的發揮的不同程度的狀況下"},{"start":4524.085,"end":4544.992,"text":"部隊必須進行本身自我的防護你講的是暫時嘛如果是說現在陳平時代呢陳平時代我們還是不斷說到這個這個可能就是外來的這個侵入嘛對不對也許是跟這個敵外勢力有關係那就是入侵到我們的機敏區域的話我們還是沒有辦法及時來處理嗎"},{"start":4546.452,"end":4570.794,"text":"這是兩個同時間要進行的就是用自動化監控的設備由專業操作員來去進行有效的反制那同時間在營區範圍內或是我們在操作區範圍內的部隊也必須進行我們主要是進行一點身邊連鎖反應所以他會有識別監控那告警通報他同時要通報所有周邊的友軍共同去進行警戒跟防禦"},{"start":4571.394,"end":4595.376,"text":"所以他是一個部隊處置的程序這是一個基本的部隊防護程序所以必須同時進行訓練跟進行整備這樣不然在平時戰時他能夠有效的去應對跟應處跟委員做說明所以我們之後其實還是不會針對機敏區域來做一個比較特殊的一個法律上的一個修正是不會就對了所以我們還是會按照這些流程"},{"start":4598.247,"end":4600.662,"text":"跑完這些流程然後再來做處置的意思"},{"start":4602.386,"end":4629.638,"text":"報告委員好 我是法律師司長報告委員報告在今年114年8月1號施行的軍事營區安全維護條例當中其中第10條就國軍在執行軍事營區安全勤務時對無人機侵入飛越營區或是侵入營區的部分有危害國家軍事或是營區的安全設施或經營設備時我們可以使用器具遇適當的處理已經有法源依據了"},{"start":4630.307,"end":4652.567,"text":"今年的8月1號已經施行了是 之前我知道好像還要再先警告警告再來的話再來確定甚至之前為了怕說有一些產生一些突發狀況所以我們連這個使用一些比較硬殺的部分我們之前曾經拿過拿掉過這個部分那現在的話是允許的嗎是 那必要的時候也可以使用武器"},{"start":4656.255,"end":4673.487,"text":"OK好謝謝那再來就是說國防部今年8月份有宣布將無人機的操作維護等基礎訓練納入新兵必學的這個課程裡面那其實這樣這個部分的話其實相關的這個建議其實本席也曾經有建議過然後對於這項規劃本席是予以肯定"},{"start":4680.252,"end":4694.295,"text":"像之前我們陸軍司令部曾經就說過希望達到人人都是無人機的操作員可是無人機的性能跟精密度其實是不一樣的當然我有看到今天的報告有提到訓練規劃的部分我們現在現行的專責軍種無人機的訓練其實是分不到各軍種而且我們還有分所謂的高階訓練等等當然明年2026年美國的MQ"},{"start":4708.599,"end":4731.04,"text":"9B的這個無人機即將可能就是要抵達台灣了那之前我有看過報導像不是每一個人都能夠操作他必須要有這個空軍的這個背景所以可能我們還會分不同的個人看這個這個軍人他自己本身的背景可能會安排到不同的這個訓練的這個階層嘛這個我們都可以理解"},{"start":4731.46,"end":4759.317,"text":"那當然我有看到就有很多其實有很多的國家現在無人機的配置方面正在推行所謂高端跟低端互相搭配並用的這個方式那高端無人機當然就是提到就是剛剛像美國的MQ-9B收割機像這次屬於高端的無人機甚至還有美國的RQ-4全球鷹等等都是那低端的部分讓我驚訝的就是說像澳洲今年宣布援助"},{"start":4760.177,"end":4779.028,"text":"烏克蘭BBDS無人機機體是用瓦勒紙做的而且是用在偵查物資接送還有短程的供給造價非常的便宜大概3500美金南韓也有類似的低端無人機研發"},{"start":4781.87,"end":4796.26,"text":"像台灣的話台灣其實也在積極的研發無人機的生產我們也想要打造一個無人機的產業所以我想請教一下台灣有沒有這方面的規劃有沒有這方面的研發或這方面的需求 請問"},{"start":4797.821,"end":4813.712,"text":"我想先回答一下那個剛剛委員提到的就是說無人機的訓練我想這個新兵的基礎訓練就是屬於最基礎的訓練然後他會還有進入到比較高專長的訓練那MQ-9V這個部分那是屬於更"},{"start":4814.292,"end":4840.079,"text":"更高端 應該是屬於連戰成績他可能需要空軍的背景才有辦法去操作我有看過這方面跟一架戰鬥機一樣另外剛剛提到的這些有關我們有國防創新小組已經來做一些創新的一個運用我想我們整理師要不要說明一下"},{"start":4844.717,"end":4859.45,"text":"你也說明一下中科院院長這邊跟你說明子製的無人機它是一種低成本的趨勢目前我們低成本的部分我們比較主要投入在第一個3D列印基層製造的部分第二個是射出成型"},{"start":4860.813,"end":4874.5,"text":"這兩項都是目前我們國內的優勢那事實上它跟紫緻的比起來的話其實價格相差不會太多尤其是色出成型的部分其實你是可以把價格壓得蠻低的如果是大量製造的話這是我們現在比較"},{"start":4875.521,"end":4904.087,"text":"取向的部分那紫緻的部分不是說我們沒有去投入只是紫緻的部分在台灣目前我們這麼潮濕還有接近海洋的環境之下其實我們有評估過它不是我們目前比較積極去投入的方式所以其實並不是說每個產業台灣都適合因為台灣的這個潮濕的環境所以澳洲跟韓國雖然他們有在研發可是以台灣的環境來講其實氣候環境是不適合的是不是"},{"start":4905.087,"end":4926.892,"text":"院長是這樣子的意思嗎我想我們都可以來探討我想著重於在3D列印這個部分應該是我們現在的一個重點對 我們正在研發當中嗎就3D列印的部分是 還沒有進入到市場 是不是在 TIO的"},{"start":4928.197,"end":4943.084,"text":"是 委員好 我是整平司司長在明年我們有規劃一個用小批量籌貨的方式去採購3D列印的無人機那買進來之後我們會讓部隊來試用了解它的功性能是不是符合我們的作戰需求等"},{"start":4943.917,"end":4967.195,"text":"所以我們還是要先引進之後我們先再來研究所以目前還沒有進入到這個研發的階段就對了沒有 我們就直接在現貨的市場上面先現貨市場先買進來來售一些成功的產品那我們現在有一個機制就是用小批量採購的方式那如果覺得可以我們就直接可以進入量產的階段這樣好 謝謝 以上謝謝"},{"start":4973.612,"end":4978.695,"text":"謝謝羅委員的發言下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":4994.861,"end":5008.125,"text":"部長早部長我們今天特別安排這樣子的一個議題主要是因為我們未來會投入非常高額的預算在無人載具上面不管是無人機無人艇或者其他相關的無人載具他也是未來一個很重要的趨勢當然我們如果提升自己本身的量能或者籌備足夠的這樣子的一些裝備也好或者"},{"start":5021.228,"end":5033.817,"text":"攻擊武器也好其實可能也是必須的可是我們還是應該要先很清楚的知道我們到底要如何提升他的作戰能力因為國軍建制無人機是為了作戰而不是為了"},{"start":5035.979,"end":5039.042,"text":"要建立廠商的產能或者要創造市場規模因為剛剛有提到包括紙製的因為如果說已經拿來做這樣的一個可以做無人載具那他不管是潮濕或什麼對他應該影響不大我們希望我們應該是全面性的去理解所有的他可能"},{"start":5058.397,"end":5075.086,"text":"它可以產生的這樣子的一個不管材質也好因為像之前在攻擊俄羅斯的那個軍艦那個無人艇其實它的造價越來越低它就是因為它的本身的材質也一直在精進當中所以我們如果要做這種大"},{"start":5075.706,"end":5101.483,"text":"大量的產製然後作為我們未來非常重要的一個採購的一個方向我想其實包括它的價格都是一個很重要的考量因為我們想要打造地獄無人機的地獄型的戰場所以其實這個對我們來說價格也是一個非常重要的因為我們還是希望國防預算可以好好的去珍惜那今天在報告裡面針對國軍構建無人機部隊的部分"},{"start":5102.881,"end":5107.083,"text":"近年國軍除了在113年到117年他分別籌貨了3200多架這樣子的無人機這個都是軍用商規的總經費高達56億8798萬那114年又向美軍採購了將近千餘架不管是對人或是"},{"start":5128.331,"end":5135.841,"text":"就是人員殺傷型的還是反裝甲型的大概也有17他的那個絕標金額也將近53億左右因為這是軍購的然後這個也大概有千餘價另外"},{"start":5144.693,"end":5162.62,"text":"我們軍備局在今年又公告下一輪有將近五萬架有四萬多軍用商規無人機的標案甲乙丙丁物五類無人機規劃在一百一十五年到一百一十六年兩年的時間要採購標案金額上看新台幣五百億"},{"start":5163.979,"end":5183.686,"text":"所以加上過去國軍也已經委託中科院製造的或者像美軍購的各型中原型的軍規型無人機例如紅准或者瑞淵或者MQ-9再加上各軍種單位比如說像政戰局也都有自行購置很多的無人機所以它整體的數量"},{"start":5185.166,"end":5201.302,"text":"非常龐大就我們剛剛講的這樣他的數量是非常龐大的所以我想請教這幾輪無人機的建制他的主要目標是為了迅速要達到一個數量還是要取代過去我們所購買的商軍規的無人機以目前這麼大量的採購我們的目的是什麼"},{"start":5208.502,"end":5224.012,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們現在要採購五型大概就是分成沉浸式的投彈式的中程的自殺式跟小型自殺式還有濱海艦艇型的這五款的無人機那都是要為了符合我們的防衛的一個作戰需求"},{"start":5224.892,"end":5228.914,"text":"對部長因為我們有打樁編訊用嘛你今天如果要採購這樣我們剛剛有提到我們過去也有採購很多那現在未來要採購的也非常多而且在短期之內你要採購的數量很多當然有兼徵有供給或者你有其他的陸用海上各個運用的模式不一樣沒有錯可是我們要問的是你要這麼大的數量在很短期的時間之內那你的庫儲"},{"start":5254.207,"end":5257.85,"text":"你的所有的準則叫飯都已經就緒了嗎"},{"start":5260.826,"end":5285.409,"text":"轉折交換的部分是不是由作機師來說一下委員好我是作機師次長同委員剛剛所提示的事項就是先從作戰運用需求作戰運用規劃來去做相關的籌購那同時間我們在作戰需求裡面把作戰運用規劃完了之後會針對需求的事項比如說作戰運用的部署部隊的編組編制以及他配付"},{"start":5285.902,"end":5308.013,"text":"那以及用分批採購的方式來去逐步建立都完成了嗎是 都已經有相關的規劃分批逐步是什麼意思報比說兼徵型的他做兼徵的運用從剛剛報我們有聯戰然後戰術跟戰鬥不同層級那並且考量俄烏戰爭當中現在每個月大概都要18萬架以上的無人機在戰場上的運用"},{"start":5309.133,"end":5336.316,"text":"那因此我們當然所以我們是要彌補數量我們這麼短期要花到500億的預算其實主要是要彌補那個數量是不是你的意思是不是這樣我們是從基礎開始建置也包含考量到剛剛所報告的我們也考量國內國外的現有的科技上的發展以及我們國內可自製籌貨的方式來去逐步建置所以可以看到從前幾年從不管是偽製的這個中科院的"},{"start":5336.496,"end":5338.619,"text":"我知道我的問題你可能沒有清楚我剛剛說打樁邊訊用嘛你一次買那麼多因為其實無人機跟科技產品一樣它跟手機一樣今天你如果一次買太多它可能兩年後就要淘汰了"},{"start":5352.817,"end":5355.538,"text":"因為它不斷有新的它就是一個科技的產品而且現在不斷創新它是很迅速的所以其實我們現在要問的是你一次編這麼多的運算買這麼大的量到底是什麼目的因為我們目前我們的國軍大概是五萬的人力你扣掉庫儲的部分你作戰的目的"},{"start":5374.164,"end":5389.557,"text":"到底要建置到多大的規模這個國防部自己必須要知道啊那你才知道要買多少啊我先請教一下小型無人機是屬於裝備還是彈藥幫我們把它歸類為消耗品什麼叫消耗品是裝備還是彈藥是彈藥是彈藥你兼爭的呢兼爭型的是裝備所以有裝備跟彈藥嗎那你的配比是怎麼樣"},{"start":5402.106,"end":5411.575,"text":"按照作戰剛剛有跟委員報告前面說明的三個階段他會依照三個階段不同的階段我們簡單來說因為你有裝備跟彈藥因為如果是美軍他是把它當成彈藥可是我們也買了非常多艱增型的所以其實就國軍哪些部隊會需要有艱增的任務"},{"start":5427.398,"end":5429.9,"text":"你需要多少編製因為我們現在要知道說你要買這麼多那你的編製到底是什麼你到底編好了沒我們現在結合有編製好了嗎這個是隨著整體的規劃按照裝備籌貨來去建置裝備編程的期程跟著部隊編程的期程你怎麼不是先先編你有編製以後才知道你要用多少啊你現在是說你先籌貨了以後才去編現在"},{"start":5456.513,"end":5469.558,"text":"包委員那個針對小型無人 尖針型無人機的部分我們就編裝的角度來看主要是從班以上的單位從中間超過的人我們賦予他另外一項專長並不是再多編一個人"},{"start":5472.039,"end":5474.8,"text":"因為我知道你是賦予他專長可是有多少人會具備這樣的專長或需要這樣的專長剛剛你說每一個人都要因為那是天方夜譚你現在要訓練到每一個人都要你現階段你根本沒有辦法達到而且你買的東西不是讓每個人訓練用的所以這是我們希望你把它分清楚第二個"},{"start":5494.429,"end":5511.442,"text":"就是我們如果說編制所以你編制好了嗎如果你這樣算編制好了那可能可以再到辦公室做一些初步的有個概念跟委員報告入軍推人人都是無人機"},{"start":5512.503,"end":5529.072,"text":"操作員這個概念只是希望大家去學會但是就編裝的角度而言我們賦予特定的兵特定的操作人員他的專長那如果是屬於高端的比如影像分析員的這個部分我們就會在檢討編裝裡面賦予他情報之類另外所需的員額這個部分是我們在做"},{"start":5534.835,"end":5539.636,"text":"無人機發展過程當中我們知道啦因為我們現在就是說你在很短期你買那麼大量你到底是要給誰用怎麼用所以我們要確切知道的是這個部分因為你花了很多錢嘛那到時候我們現在就是像剛剛提到的如果像無人機它就跟手機一樣它是科技產品它不斷的翻新它有很多新的而且我們現在攻擊型的也好偵監型的也好它很容易受到干擾"},{"start":5563.76,"end":5566.862,"text":"在二屋戰場上面其實最清楚的就是這個部分原來說很好的有非常強大功能的很快它馬上干擾以後完全沒有用它全部都掉下來所以我們買的到底要因應什麼樣的戰場環境要提升什麼樣的作戰能力是我們需要去做準備的我再請教一個"},{"start":5583.254,"end":5589.339,"text":"就這個部分如果說你一口氣買太多因為我們知道你現在到底要怎麼配置啊你說短中長期那為什麼要買這樣的數量我們看不出來你是怎麼樣去做配置的你如果是供給型的你至少就像可能像紅準啊或像我們標槍一樣啊你會有什麼樣的配置嘛不是每個人都會用對不對所以在這個部分包委員這個部分先跟你說明一下這個我們需求量的這個問題是跟"},{"start":5610.976,"end":5621.581,"text":"美方已經針對我們整個防衛作案構想裡面各階段各單位所需要的消耗量先做一個規劃這第一點為什麼是美方幫我們做規劃"},{"start":5623.004,"end":5651.21,"text":"不是美方幫我們最規劃雙方針對台海作戰環境的作戰需求我們做過評估之後我們去確定這個數量但是第二點我們要講的是策略的部分因應二屋戰爭這種我們已經發現他的確會快速的喪失的效能這個部分我們在預約的部分未來會把他的裝備疊帶以及其他必要能夠快速更換的這些零件來改變他裝備的性能是納在我們後續"},{"start":5651.63,"end":5655.072,"text":"所以我在這裡先提醒因為我們一次買那麼多你雖然是分年獲得可是你如果一次五年那你第五年拿到的雖然是看起來是新的可是它規格就是五年前的這是我們第一個要提醒的第二個就是無人機它不僅僅是機體它電池也是主要的一個重要成本我想要請教目前我們無人機是怎麼搭配電池當你在採購的時候電池怎麼搭配"},{"start":5681.772,"end":5701.894,"text":"跟委員來做一個報告剛剛委員的指導是非常正確就是因為迭代所以我們的採購都是以兩年像我們蘋果手機一年有迭代一次像今年17出來所以我們就是依照委員你這個想法我們也知道科技的創新是日新月異我們關係到迭代所以我們兩年會約"},{"start":5703.335,"end":5708.4,"text":"至於每年的得標的廠商要對我們去做新的提升現在是兩年你說500億這個因為你迅速買很多可是你剛剛我們第一個提到的是113年到177年籌貨的那些它就是五年我現在問的是還包括因為我們現在是先提醒就是它疊帶其實是很迅速的如果你把它用在你不能一次買太多如果它疊帶"},{"start":5726.836,"end":5731.819,"text":"結果你一次買500億兩年以後它已經是落後的你又要再編500億1000億來買嗎這個我們目前希望先看到這個部分如果你知道它是迭代的它是一個科技的它軟體需要隨時更新它可能需要受到很多干擾條件你必須要再怎麼樣的去加強改善的時候其實你一次買太多的量其實是不對所以我們在這裡"},{"start":5752.349,"end":5775.494,"text":"剛剛提到的我們再把電池說完就是我們在搭配的時候你買無人機電池怎麼搭配電池都已經我們的標約裡面都要把它做一個公版的一個標準化所謂的公版標準化是民用的嗎民用軍用不是我現在我們先說你怎麼搭配比如說你買無人機你要搭配多少電池"},{"start":5776.94,"end":5799.728,"text":"一個電池裡面當然我們一個無人機會你在採購裡面因為你現在就已經要買了嘛你買無人機電池怎麼搭配因為沒有電池你就飛不起來嘛一架飛機當然是有它配備的標準電池那就是一個你的配比是多少配比是一架無人機就是搭配像FPP就是一個無人機你的手機你一支手機你會有幾個電池一個"},{"start":5801.881,"end":5818.959,"text":"我现在目前以我个人的习惯就是一个你觉得大家会有多少作战会有多少一个电池可以有多少所以我现在问的就是它的配比就是你买无人机你搭配的电池数量是什么配的因为电池跟委员报告电池是有寿命的所以我们会有一定的周转量"},{"start":5820.373,"end":5823.797,"text":"你顯然沒有聽懂我的意思你現在要買的時候你的電池要怎麼搭配你不會只有一比一因為電池的消耗其實是非常快速的再加上你現在顯然你們還沒有有具體的規劃所以你大概也答不出來那我們希望你有確切的"},{"start":5839.595,"end":5846.6,"text":"答案以後提供書面資料另外就是電池的部分我要請教的是電池你是用什麼樣的不會是廠商獨規吧比如說你跟這一家廠商買就跟我們所有現在規定的手機的電池一樣就大家都通用的對不對不會像以前你的接口像iPhone它就只能用它的電池其他都不能用不會是買這樣的電池不會在這裡確定嗎好那就這個部分我們希望後續有什麼樣的更完整的規劃提供書面資料"},{"start":5870.216,"end":5891.455,"text":"跟委員報告我想剛剛五型的這個無人機它的數量不一那剛剛講比如說濱海健身型的無人機我們的數量就不會太多那FPV的部分可能數量會多但是我們還是會注意到就是說要迭代創新迭代創新的意思就是說在一個共規的情況之下我們會用軟體來驅動讓它做迭代的創新大概以上"},{"start":5892.516,"end":5915.229,"text":"對 迭代因為你如果說軟體不是所有的都可以這樣用啦當然這個是要考量到的如果已經有考量到它未來軟體的更新那當然是我們可能應該要走的方向另外就是我剛剛講的電池電池在無人機如果會使用的都非常清楚電池非常重要而且它電池它的消耗是非常快速的然後它需要常常換所以你不可能1比1你的電池"},{"start":5918.291,"end":5933.045,"text":"如果是這樣還蠻落後的喔你才只有一顆電池然後你把它套用在這個上面所以如果是軍備局要做的準備這樣顯然是不合格所以我們希望你們可以有更周全的資料再提供好不好 謝謝謝謝馬委員質詢下面我們請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":5949.227,"end":5954.995,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧立雄部長那麼其他列席的官員如果有需要補充的請自行上台是林委員"},{"start":5962.374,"end":5987.612,"text":"部長早今天呢我們當然就是針對我們整個所謂的無人機的相關的這種所謂無人載具投入的這樣的一個專案報告那麼不知道部長是不是知道這兩天有關於在野黨委員已經認為就是有關於我們的國防預算的當中如果說是超過GDP3%的話那麼他們打算要把它砍掉"},{"start":5988.112,"end":6011.503,"text":"那麼如果說以我們現在無人機的部分的話我在這個公開的這個網站上面看到了就是現在有一筆反制無人機的系統但是呢在公告上面說接下來的預算是使用115年到117年的特別預算言下之意這是公告在先喔"},{"start":6012.003,"end":6015.225,"text":"我想賴清德總統在國慶演說當中說要打造台灣之盾的這個構想要建立反飛彈反飛機跟反無人機的多層防護這個部分本席是非常贊同的但是我想馬上這個公告一出來就有媒體開始報導了"},{"start":6029.494,"end":6037.641,"text":"他就說這個是不是一個不存在的預算但是先把這樣的一個採購的部分公告出來了那因為我其實在10月20號的質詢當中當時也問過了顧部長那麼希望能夠了解現在到底我們在所謂"},{"start":6046.109,"end":6062.876,"text":"特別預算尤其是台灣之盾的這個預算當中到底如何的來使用當時就有回覆說希望在年底之前提出這樣的預算那麼我知道其實對於國防的部分全民都支持但是在預算如何的使用跟如何配比"},{"start":6063.436,"end":6091.09,"text":"的時候其實民眾通常是只知其一不知其二我很希望利用等一下的10分鐘的時間讓全民的去了解到底我們的預算是如何的來做使用以及我們到底有沒有需要這樣的特別預算因為畢竟這個預算如果年底要提出來而現在在野黨委員也說了超過GT3%以上的他就覺得太多了那如果是這樣劍指特別預算的時候那我們要好好的先說明一下首先第一個就是"},{"start":6092.271,"end":6102.582,"text":"在這樣的公告過程當中只是把這個所謂未來所需要的需求然後先提出來那麼這個合不合乎我們現在一般的採購流程跟規定"},{"start":6104.901,"end":6129.053,"text":"鮑委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一個在這個您所提列的這個可吸食無人機反制系統它目前是在11月3號做的一個公開閱覽這是符合也是依據政府採購法第34條因為它是超過一個1億元以上那為了要有資訊透明化那公開閱覽它並不等同正式的招標文件"},{"start":6129.693,"end":6157.952,"text":"那它最主要是在一個商情的跟規格的一個回饋那作為未來在修製招標文件的時候避免廠商疑議讓正式的預算獲付以後可以如期的貨裝那最主要委員也看到了這個紅線也幫我們框起來了這個案子它是寫是奉核後再行補助也就是說這個是我們依照我們的有這樣的需求我們要先去了解商情跟相關的規格得到回饋"},{"start":6160.234,"end":6177.996,"text":"并没有目前还没有相关的所以就是一个预告公告然后我们国军有这样的需求跟建制的计划然后就是让这个厂商能够先提前做准备但是预算已经先希望匡列在那里期望能够"},{"start":6179.157,"end":6184.119,"text":"獲得好 那沒問題我們就來看一下這個所謂反制無人機的系統到底是什麼其實本席也非常的好奇我就特別去找了一下過去的新聞我們來看看其實真的我們不能讓國軍再當摩登原始人本席特別讀了一些相關的報告包括今年7月的時候我們漢光41號演習也特別都提到了有關無人機的反制因為隨著現在所謂的"},{"start":6206.365,"end":6219.512,"text":"人口老化 然後人口稀少無人所謂建制的這樣的設備其實是非常的重要在訪問上非常重要但是從2022年當時在金門大膽島我們看到我們的官兵用石頭去驅離這個無人機到2024年的4月8號的時候我們現在開始用干擾槍了"},{"start":6225.976,"end":6240.234,"text":"但是干擾腔就是人的操作對不對那這就跟勢力有關了我眼睛好一點的看得遠一點我眼睛差的我可能近在咫尺都來不及反應所以我想請問的是以目前我們要投入96億的預算來做所謂的這個反制"},{"start":6245.18,"end":6263.651,"text":"無人機的這樣的系統那目前是2025年也就是今年年底會完成26套那麼這26套夠用嗎那麼這26套為什麼這個現在需要另外開一個剛剛我前面講的特別預算的標案要來花96億"},{"start":6266.158,"end":6290.947,"text":"包委員這個26套也就是有鑒於您也是圖示上面過去我們對於外離島他對我們實施的一個民用無人機的侵擾以及遂行認知作戰那我們我們也目前第一個是已經配發了相關的總共總共是232支的這個干擾槍對那包含到本外島那這次已經給外島"},{"start":6291.707,"end":6300.351,"text":"那但是甘老鄉畢竟如委員所說的它是要靠目視才可以我們還是要靠科技所以這26套它是以外島地主為主因為外島它很多離島現在這26套已經陸續都已經交建已經裝備了嗎整個還在建案和驗收的程序那26套如何來做配置因為我們剛剛看到的這個新聞都是以外離島為主嘛"},{"start":6318.638,"end":6346.073,"text":"对 那么在外离岛跟本岛之间这26套如何来使用这个案子的26套它其实是9.8亿那它主要就是由外离岛为主那刚刚委员所讲的这个96亿可惜是这个它主要是未来在我们的这些重要的防护的指挥所还有至于佩服的单位我这边就还"},{"start":6346.693,"end":6361.581,"text":"好如果是屬於機密的部分可以不用說明但是為什麼本席會特別想要利用這個時候來詢問的原因很簡單對於一般民眾來講看到這樣的新聞他會同意建制因為這覺得就是摩登原始人啊怎麼會來到了2025年的時候我第一2022年我用石頭"},{"start":6365.523,"end":6368.745,"text":"我2024年的時候我用干擾槍可是干擾槍的時候來不及對不對這跟個人的反應跟個人的勢力有關所以民眾會支持所以我相信取得這26套那麼有其必要性但是接下來當一般的民眾看到是96億的時候雖然預算還沒有出來"},{"start":6385.515,"end":6394.78,"text":"但是如果今天沒有一個清楚的說明跟合理的說明的時候因為本席也讀到一些其他的報導會講說 哎呀 這個外離島這麼小哪裡需要到26套一半的數量就夠了免得分佈得太密集彼此還會互相干擾"},{"start":6405.046,"end":6428.617,"text":"所以本席不是一個所謂武器專家或者是國防專家但是我站在一個全民的視角我覺得我拿出這個例子給你做解釋而你們就必須要在這個時間點上面讓全民知道有其必要性不然馬上就會講說26套啊外離島這麼小你通通都放在外離島那你就夠啦那接下來還需要96億嗎您說這個是8億多不到9億的預算嘛對不對所以我想要給您時間來回覆"},{"start":6434.279,"end":6452.134,"text":"跟委員報告其實就是說有三件一個是這個UDS這個部分這個是由空軍統建的這剛剛已經說明了那剛剛您講的26套這個是主要也是外離島為主但是也不限於外離島主要以外離島為主這個是陸軍統建的"},{"start":6453.835,"end":6468.428,"text":"那另外你講的一個那種可惜式的無人機反制用這個部隊在運用的那這個是我們要等到我們現在只是在做一個傷情的偵詢那要等到獲付預算以後才能夠正式進行所以其實是三個不同的目的"},{"start":6469.008,"end":6496.883,"text":"那空軍建制當然剛剛也提到我想也不適合去講說太明確地點但主要是為了這個它有固定跟機動的可以講用途就好而不是說木建在哪裡為了基地等等這樣子他剛剛參謀長已經講了那這個部分是一個那外離島的這個部分就是剛剛取代就是說現在用木式的這個方法好像沒有辦法能夠精準的去幕後到這個無人機然後把它進行做一個干擾的這個動作"},{"start":6498.069,"end":6508.399,"text":"那所以這個要運用這個外離島無人機的繁殖系統那至於可吸射當然就更進一步了這個是另外"},{"start":6509.842,"end":6531.469,"text":"我們希望能夠達到這個對於這個相關有關這些我們對於指揮所等等還有部隊的這些反制無人機避免被他們攻擊的這個目的好 因為本席會特別提出來是我們身為立法委員我們對於預算有其監督的責任那麼同樣的我相信透過質詢台上我們才會知道說"},{"start":6532.569,"end":6549.829,"text":"已經對外公告但是其實預算都還沒有核定下來的時候給你們多一點的解釋也有機會讓全民了解每一套的所謂無人機的反制的相關的系統用在什麼樣的地方跟有其必要性至於用在哪裡"},{"start":6551.05,"end":6552.991,"text":"這是事涉機密也是事涉國安我們不會要求但是每一套就像剛剛部長所講的它的用途不一樣那這個必須要拆分清楚否則糊在一起的時候就很容易被誤導那當然接下來我要問的是這個"},{"start":6567.797,"end":6577.968,"text":"首先當然我也要非常感謝這一次陸海空軍的這些弟兄們在馬太安溪艷色湖的這個混化家傷風災當中給予這樣的協助那麼當然部長其實也表揚了101位的軍官頒予他們紀念章那麼我們其實也知道這一次國軍第一時間是突動了摩羯戰術以進城的無人機搭配特戰"},{"start":6591.241,"end":6606.192,"text":"對的操作微型無人機在道路中斷跟地形受限的情況之下可以立即回傳相關的影像跟河口的監態的動態系統來協助地方上做救災的部分喔那麼當然"},{"start":6607.353,"end":6610.476,"text":"我覺得無人機這個戰時的使用都是希望不要發生但是平時的救災反而會更需要所以這個救災視同作戰本席是非常同意但是我們知道現在無人機上剛剛的報告當中有堅真型戰術型跟攻擊型還有現在所謂微型商規等等那麼在這樣的人力跟編組當中我們現在是不是已經有一個完整的那邊的統籌"},{"start":6635.017,"end":6651.199,"text":"而在面對整體的像這一次馬太安的救災當中其實顯示了一個重點就是怎麼樣在救災過程當中跟地方政府或者是前進指揮所或者是整個災防中心的搭配我相信無人機它發揮了非常重要的"},{"start":6651.599,"end":6664.324,"text":"功能在裡面那麼在經過這一次的這個所謂不論是花家超風災或是馬太安艷澀湖的相關的救災之後有沒有進一步的思考未來這種所謂的臨時編組可以變成是有其計劃性的就是必要性的這種所謂雖然是任務但是有它的協助的SOP還是說其實事實上現在就已經建構了這樣的SOP"},{"start":6678.535,"end":6697.905,"text":"謝謝委員 我是座議事長 跟委員做說明就在這兩 在這個 煙色湖的救災活動當中我們已經有運用部隊現在的編組的無人機包含了這個 尖針型 戰術進程以及圍型這包含了海軍跟陸軍的各型無人機都結合它部隊的 這個救災部隊的編組"},{"start":6700.026,"end":6718.384,"text":"按照他分配的責任分別去執行整個區域的監偵或者是人命搜救搜索的這個任務那我們的災防救編組呢也是依照災防區的劃分就同剛剛委員所知道我們是在前線會開設前進指揮所那由這個住案區的指揮官來去做整個救災責任區的劃分那依照救災責任區的劃分他會編組徵收的"},{"start":6720.706,"end":6736.834,"text":"然後做整個人命搜救的包含環境的整理以及相應的後勤資源等等這都會做整體的編組跟規劃那未來無人機隨著逐次的貨裝健全的部署的部隊之後當然會有更廣泛的運用以上說明好 我覺得像這個也是非常重要的參謀長補充"},{"start":6738.655,"end":6753.253,"text":"消防委員補充報告除了剛剛次長報告的事實上我們也整合我們也依災區的需求整合了民間的這個更大型的無人機是由我們的化學兵來提供藥劑和依照需要噴灑的地方實施一個空中的消除成效也非常良好"},{"start":6754.036,"end":6776.454,"text":"好 這個本席是認為接下來因為真的所謂大自然的變化極端氣候的關係真的會常常出現一些我們過去沒有遇到的這樣的天氣的氣候的狀況那麼所以說有關於救災資源機制這個部分我覺得可以把它建立跟納入我覺得這個也是真的暫時出動但平時協助也算是一種訓練"},{"start":6779.062,"end":6787.92,"text":"我想無聯機的運用隨著我們陸續在貨裝應該會更有一個擴大的運用救災當然也是其中的一環謝謝 辛苦"},{"start":6792.905,"end":6797.25,"text":"謝謝 剛剛林委員拿出來的圖片2024年的干擾槍 當時在審預算的時候大家是怎麼說的 那是2024年是去年 現在已經是變成落後的東西"},{"start":6813.065,"end":6826.373,"text":"請大家把它拿出來看所以你們在編預算要預算的時候都說哇這個非常需要干擾槍當時大家是怎麼說的還有反制系統到現在還沒有拿到我們請王定宇委員上台質詢我們請軍令系統我們副參謀總長請副參謀總長"},{"start":6842.233,"end":6849.455,"text":"那其他有關不管是無人機或反制無人機不管是科研、戰規相關的就需要補充可以上來補充"},{"start":6853.67,"end":6874.721,"text":"這個黃上將我為什麼請你上來因為你們是用這些東西的單位在參謀本部將來各個作戰單位你們是使用無人機或者使用反制無人機的單位目前不管是商規或軍規無人機在軍事用途上他最新的趨勢最新的科技在戰場實際運用上是什麼"},{"start":6877.503,"end":6900.798,"text":"委員好 我是副總長執行官 跟您做個報告實際上一方面是當初他設計的時候我們大家所想要他的在站場的運用簡單來講 我實際上就是說興趣是什麼我想有一部分我的看法跟馬委員差距不遠有時候我們當下沒有不行可是我們明知道半個月之後或三個月之後他就變成沒用了"},{"start":6901.997,"end":6922.844,"text":"或者像曾經紅極一時的彈簧刀現在在烏克蘭戰場上效果不好因為你會用人家也會反制你嘛所以我現在要問你的是就目前在參謀本部你們了解起來軍事用途的無人機最新的發展趨勢這個Cutting Edge最新的這個趨勢是什麼"},{"start":6923.784,"end":6947.803,"text":"其他單位也補充 我不知道考試很可能後續會導入AI智慧的運用他到空中之後他可以自行辯證目標並且分析用AI之後用AI我要用干擾的方式有沒有可能當然也有可能所以說他在抗干擾的技術甚至有部分現在在戰場上運用已經導入了光纖導引等等我提這個點我們這不是研討會"},{"start":6949.224,"end":6976.842,"text":"我看到我們要買四萬五千架當然現在拉下來重新思考了四萬五千架的無人機如果我們開的是現在熟知的規格等你招標完成那個通通落伍了幾十億幾百億它就變成沒用錢的損失浪費我認為還是小喔最怕的是什麼安慰劑效用就是我以為我有了我以為我有這個戰力了真正在打的時候它變無用"},{"start":6977.742,"end":7007.089,"text":"那個更危險所以現在無人機的新科技的導入他的新趨勢第一個是AI的運用GPS deny就是沒有GPS的環境下他能夠飛行或者沒有導引的狀況下他能夠去處理這個大概現在是無人機的方向當時為了對抗干擾你看烏克蘭戰場一大堆光纖的尾巴那個線拉在屁股後面可是不是好方法現在慢慢就沒了為什麼我順著線就可以打掉那個飛手所以"},{"start":7008.223,"end":7021.941,"text":"不管是AI GPS或者是群工或者一台主機帶著一群我根本我們的飛手訓練現在有什麼Level 1到Level 5將來我下指令圖面給他他就自己出去了"},{"start":7022.978,"end":7035.963,"text":"我上次問一個在國防展的他說訓練三分鐘看得懂這幾個字下指令就好了跟現在我們還要訓練那個穩定度我那時候看呂坤修上將在那邊操控也許再過三個季節再過幾個月"},{"start":7039.06,"end":7063.15,"text":"這個不一樣了所以這個不是國軍的問題我們國軍是強求穩定的發展所以我要有五年兵診我裝備出來我要有教範我要有訓練計畫訓練計畫之後我每一個中心要放什麼樣的教官放什麼樣的教科書這個是我們國軍既有的架構可是現在變化很快當你建構好了花了大錢簽了約要人家來訓練的時候"},{"start":7065.154,"end":7081.48,"text":"下個趨勢可能非手不用了他用的是下指令的方式像海馬仕坐標按一按三分鐘就學會了所以我第一個命題要請教就目前參謀本部在思考這些所有的軍事用途的文機要不要納入稀土"},{"start":7083.626,"end":7104.781,"text":"報委員C2的部分本來就是無人機系統不管是反制或者是要運用的它要不要納入你們三棟裡面我們軍團要不要納入我們的Control Command這C2裡面這部分已經在納入了它當然分成不同層級的運用的無人機放在不同的指管層級所以我們採購的無人機"},{"start":7105.962,"end":7135.122,"text":"你當手榴彈用的就飛幾公里去把錢炸掉了那個大概指揮鏈不一樣但我的意思我看到你們開出來規格都沒有考慮C2你沒有納入指管那飛出去打到誰很麻煩欸報委員指管基本上來講有一部分都是大範圍運用的那個都已經在本來在他的兼增跟他的這個指管系統裡頭都已經整合在我們的指管裡頭了我透過質詢那個副參謀總長跟我們讓官方了解說我們要採購"},{"start":7136.581,"end":7151.582,"text":"都要 我認為是應該要盡快給你們運算盡快支持你們建構 本席是支持甚至於呢 現在不是軍方需要捷運需要 高鐵需要核電廠需要 電廠需要都需要 但是做對才不會浪費錢"},{"start":7152.643,"end":7172.248,"text":"不是只單獨便宜我單獨便宜買了安慰劑直接吃下去夠心命好像沒問題真正要用的時候不能用嘛所以我剛才講的納入只管我希望在未來我們無人機採購的時候你要有這些啊他要能夠跟誰對話他要能夠被誰看見否則不要說"},{"start":7173.948,"end":7188.591,"text":"他國的友軍我們自己的國軍裡面的友軍都要擔心這個飛出去撞到誰會被打到民船無人船我只貪圖便宜好像便宜很好用就要出去跟自殺炸彈客一樣到處亂跑你沒有納入職管"},{"start":7189.676,"end":7212.065,"text":"你怎麼去監偵他你怎麼去處理這是我要講的第一件事情我不曉得這個黃三江你看吧委員這部分是委員的指導的確是非常正確的不過我們現在現在無人機現在已經引用進來的規劃包含這個從高階的無人機一直到部隊基本階層使用的無人機軍規的大概沒問題我現在講是商規那手上放上來就飛出去"},{"start":7212.165,"end":7235.312,"text":"所以說那個作戰單位成績他們在因為這個部分是例如說這個分散食指管並且交給任務室指揮我們會運用我們正常例如說TAC系統我們直接交付到基礎的單位我們現在的無人機全部都可以跟TAC系統連線嗎我們現在TAC系統實際上是配付給個人跟部隊的這個指揮官到達前線之後可以配付到最基本的連級甚至連級以下的單位"},{"start":7237.153,"end":7251.072,"text":"參謀本部在用兵 你是軍令單位我們現在採購的所有無人機不管是砲兵單位在用的海軍陸戰隊在用的在你們的指管系統裡面都看得到 指揮得到我們會透過不同的系統去一直指揮到最基層用無線電 那個太慢"},{"start":7254.036,"end":7255.397,"text":"現在是我們正常的正常的指管體系裡頭採購的新的指管裝備和通信系統就已經可以做到這個地步了"},{"start":7276.33,"end":7288.419,"text":"當然是陸海空軍整體的考量我們現在陸軍本身指管系統都不太有了你可以無人機納入我們現在是建立新的我們不要講好聽話我覺得不足我支持你預算 補足來我們陸軍那個部隊從A點到B點還在動拐動動"},{"start":7295.137,"end":7323.411,"text":"Check 通報執行官那個不叫那個跟我們一般的command control不一樣耶實際上這次在我們這個光復箱救災裡頭我們已經把這些新的這個你們有跟消防各方面那個TAK那個整合都已經納入運用了第一個我建議我們這是一個挑戰我再強調一次我沒有說誰對誰錯我也不懂全部我這次去台美國防會議我也問他這個問題到底無人機的標案要怎麼寫啊"},{"start":7324.229,"end":7326.18,"text":"我根據現有成熟的寫出來的標案"},{"start":7327.25,"end":7355.109,"text":"招標那一刻他就落伍了如果90億100億丟下去不是國軍要浪費啊這是一個趨勢我覺得在立法院我不會去指責你們浪費因為這是一個新的樣態所以第一個新科技前緣科技的能力怎麼寫在標案裡面可是又因為是前緣科技很容易只有他有別人都沒有我怎麼樣透過採購法規的保障避免動不動被人家講你只有一家有在賣"},{"start":7356.158,"end":7376.627,"text":"那就他最好 我當然只有那家在那邊 懂我意思嗎就是說要避免圖利又要買到最新的在法規面這個採購案部長是法律專家在建案之前這個要思考清楚第三個 以參謀本部的角度無人機的運用或反制無人機的運用"},{"start":7378.188,"end":7396.699,"text":"每個單位都一樣嗎那當然需求也不一樣當然依照各部隊他的任務和屬性的不同會有相當的差異黃志偉上將是空軍嘛是你是我們空軍的長官我就問你反制無人機如果在機場你們第一個要考量什麼他會不會干擾吧"},{"start":7397.759,"end":7424.113,"text":"除了機場本身是不會被監偵或者被進來攻擊之外另外我們這個進出的航路以及航空機飛行的機遇會不會受到影響我現在裝一個無人機的反制系統我裝在列嶼 裝在左營軍港或者我們既得艦上面裝在我們這個坑子口 裝在龍鋼大操場裝在我們的這個自航基地這個反制無人機的標準會一樣嗎"},{"start":7425.144,"end":7441.536,"text":"當然不一樣這個是又牽扯到我們國軍現在作戰的頻譜管理的問題一個是頻譜管理問題另外一個美國在反制無人機至少我看到空軍都要求至少至少要FAA approved"},{"start":7442.435,"end":7462.439,"text":"不用certificate就是說美國的航空運用的核准就是要避免干擾航道的通訊所以我剛才只提的就是說無人機的運用我砲兵我以前用觀測的用報座標的火力那個效果效率設打一門之後再來做校正"},{"start":7462.819,"end":7480.536,"text":"那個時代過了現在可能無人機座標提供第一門打中了兩分鐘內我就要拔腿就跑了以免被反擊嘛那我透過這樣的運用我減少兵員編制調整我的邊線筆才不會永遠不夠所以他需要的無人機不一樣跟我海軍陸戰隊"},{"start":7482.332,"end":7497.691,"text":"在面對有鹽分的有水分的地方他用的也不一樣所以我這一個部分要提的是國軍的標案怎麼可能甲乙丙丁物五種買四萬五千台發下去你是要各單位自己拿蘿賴吧在那邊調整自己的需求嗎這不對嘛"},{"start":7501.714,"end":7525.681,"text":"來 請說實際上我們在 剛才部長也針對這個問題也做過回答我們在未來的這個購案裡頭實際上已考慮到這個迭代變換的需求所以說是分年採購在這個採購上面這個如果有新的技術也有更新上面的這個規格的限制因為你們是用兵單位是的我建議你們現在是買方市場我一樣買四萬五千架我在立法院的態度預算我認為應該支持"},{"start":7528.337,"end":7555.419,"text":"預算不是在算達到幾%幾%啦那個GDP3%5%我認為不應該這樣算而是我們有沒有需求需求來自於敵情的威脅當中共有原火部隊我就要思考面對長城火箭我要怎麼處理當中共的無人機侵擾越來越多我就要思考我要哪些類型的反制無人機的做法在平時我不能硬殺那軟殺無法的時候該怎麼處理我們的需求堆疊起來的國防預算是幾%就幾%"},{"start":7557.994,"end":7586.113,"text":"給國軍好的待遇也要給國軍好的裝備而提供好的裝備才是我們軍事採購的第一優先發展國安產業是附加價值不能本末倒置我花了國防預算就要買給國軍對的東西而對的東西可以帶動國內產業的發展這是好事情可是我不能為了發展產業給國軍次等品說沒關係你先用我把市場做大起來如果買得到買不到當然我們就自己研製買得到的話"},{"start":7587.267,"end":7604.746,"text":"花錢要買給國軍最好的因為那是生命攸關的事情所以我剛才講的不管是前沿科技的運用AI等等納入指管是一個關鍵C2這要納入第三個我希望的是一樣四萬五千架搞不好有一百個規格那我就給你掌聲鼓勵了"},{"start":7606.411,"end":7633.727,"text":"這一個台南空軍基地需要的規格是這種這一個在樂山鋪路爪需要的規格是這個在太平島上需要的規格是這個不同的需求不同的作戰環境他應該有不同的規格現在在無人機其實已經慢慢走向買方市場客製化單位需求化當然我們不會弄到那麼細大的模組而不是甲乙比丁物這麼大的量然後呢"},{"start":7635.413,"end":7644.424,"text":"我要請教你們先請我請部長我最後請教三個問題我們現在無人機反制系統要買635套"},{"start":7649.09,"end":7666.321,"text":"我剛才問到問題部長應該知道我接下來要問什麼了這635套96億我個人認為無人機反制應該加速盡快建制起來否則像烏克蘭對俄羅斯的蜘蛛網行動我們現在台灣的空軍機場沒有一個防得住"},{"start":7667.765,"end":7687.432,"text":"我們基地像我台南機場旁邊都民設我租一個民房還不用貨櫃車勒我在裡面藏了二三十台無人機飛出去管你IDF還是F16先炸掉了所以我們的無人機的防制的設施確實是極度的脆弱要趕快建立我贊成但是還是那句話要做對來"},{"start":7689.293,"end":7702.07,"text":"給預算要做對的事情所以第一個能不能對抗新的趨勢現在你們建的案一口氣買這一個635套我幫你規格是什麼我看到你們只想要有干擾啦要有takeover"},{"start":7704.312,"end":7719.688,"text":"takeover這個要跟資料庫有關資料庫的擴充性以及它對於新的無導引的AI的群工的你們這些一口氣買這麼多套他們有沒有這樣的能力"},{"start":7720.553,"end":7743.412,"text":"包委員我簡單補充這個有關於這個系統我們的期望也是依照二屋戰爭的經驗我們希望它至少達成三大功能第一個是能夠自動徵收自動指引第二個同時能夠干擾多批次多架式的無人機跟現在的UDS的這種干擾少數不一樣"},{"start":7744.513,"end":7769.442,"text":"時間的關係齁我還要提醒部長各單位反制無人機需求會不一樣環境的限制也會不一樣千萬不要一個規格買一堆然後到時候不合用一堆浪費我又要重新買一堆無人機反制無人機軍用確實需要預算確實該支持給你們但是當你們"},{"start":7770.222,"end":7789.603,"text":"定標案的規格的時候要思考它的科技前緣性它的AI的導入新進科技的導入以及各單位需求的不同特別是環境的不同陸海控就不一樣了不要說系到各部隊然後最後我提醒陸軍你們我今天本來要問你們天山營區阿兵哥沒有水可以用"},{"start":7790.629,"end":7807.825,"text":"要解決 你不能不解決早上都不能刷牙開什麼玩笑因為他是那個管路木刀沒關係 這個問題我只是提醒這件事情天山盈區 連早上都不能刷牙沒有水這件事情要解決如果需要協調地方自來水供應單位我幫你們一起來協調是 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":7828.677,"end":7831.318,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長 謝謝請顧部長部長好今天最主要是跟無人機的部件策略有關係我先從這邊問起因為這就是大概前陣子的事情而已比利時的空軍基地也是"},{"start":7853.57,"end":7876.317,"text":"遭到這一個無人機的騷擾他們有兩天他們第一天是小型的無人機先過去偵測偵測頻率然後知道頻率之後第二天再用這一個大型無人機騷擾他第二天的時候就導致因為他第一天已經先去測過了所以導致第二天這一個要用干擾器要去影響他的時候結果這個比利時這邊就失敗了"},{"start":7876.957,"end":7897.33,"text":"那所以這邊呢就是第一個問題就是說這一個它比較特別就在於說我們現在面臨到這個所謂的灰色地帶作戰那過往我們都遇到的都是這個從中國過來的一些騷擾不管是從海域 從空軍但像比利時這個遇到的它就是直接是在境內當然它到底是原因什麼這個我們並不是那麼清楚"},{"start":7898.07,"end":7907.562,"text":"但是有兩個問題就是第一個就是像這種有第一天 第二天藉由這樣的一個方式去破壞干擾系統那目前我們應對的方式是什麼這個"},{"start":7916.346,"end":7931.725,"text":"鮑委員我是作息室的市長當然整體無人機的防禦是整體性的考量如同剛剛委員講我們有主動被動軟煞跟硬煞的作為因此在機場除了這個主動的偵測也有被動的偵測那針對它的頻段也區分為訓練"},{"start":7935.049,"end":7961.684,"text":"戰備 商用等各式的評斷那會做依照當時的狀況去做彈性上的調整對 這個看起來是屬於這種跟商用有關的這種干擾但是我們想知道的事情就是說因為這比較新型態嘛 對不對就是說它分成兩天第一天先把它偵測然後偵測完之後呢第二天讓你很難以干擾那這個事情如果我們遇到的話呢我們的比如說我們的SOP的作為是什麼我們不需要詳細但是我們有沒有這樣的一些規劃"},{"start":7963.462,"end":7992.436,"text":"包委員就是從前面我們以前所訂定部隊的反應處置機制就是所謂的識別監控告警通報然後再來是驅離以及後續的相關的監控作為它是有一個部隊應處的規範這個是本來就有的嘛對 本來就有這個規範但我的意思就是說我們應該要把這種比較新型態的這種干擾放進來就是說因為它的方式變得不一樣然後第二個就是說像你剛剛講到比如說我們有偵測然後再來我們可能要做擊落等等之類的"},{"start":7993.103,"end":8010.377,"text":"第一個我們偵測的這個範圍到底夠不夠我知道我們之前這一個我們中科院有一個說它這個預警可以到5公里的或者我們本來也有原來的本來就有4公里就是我們本來就有這些規劃對不對但是我們偵測之後我們的這個範圍到底跟我們的擊殺的範圍能不能合在一起這也是一個問題"},{"start":8011.278,"end":8034.351,"text":"然後更不要講說就是後面這是這一個比利時的將軍他自己提到的在下面這邊他就講說第一個當時他們遇到這個事情的時候干擾器失效就是我剛剛講的它分成兩天第二個就是說因為畢竟附近就是有民宅因為它是空軍基地被騷擾如果是在基地內的話當然極洛對他們講比較沒有問題但有時候是在基地周圍就是跟我們講灰色地帶干擾一樣"},{"start":8035.371,"end":8052.251,"text":"周圍的時候就要考量到一般的民眾可能會殘骸可能會導致有人受傷就是說那我們針對像後面這件事情我們有沒有相關的這些應處的方式假設今天是我們遇到了台灣很密集就是說附近有沒有這些所謂的有可能會影響到的這個範圍"},{"start":8053.092,"end":8079.719,"text":"抱怨我們整個無人機的防範如果在機場周邊的話其實我們會結合民航局的航警我們現在的偵測系統甚至能夠定位到操作者他所在的位置的柱子那因此可以通報所在地的警察或者是由機場的航警來去協助查緝那我們目前是用這種不管是用國軍自己的反制系統還有結合民航站的航警的這種查緝的方式來去做防範"},{"start":8080.759,"end":8102.097,"text":"那剛剛委員指導的這個新型態的這種攻擊式的變化我們也持續在掌握未來納入突發狀況處置規定裡面來做持續的修訂以利部隊去做有效的應處這個突發狀況第一個就是突發狀況的這個處置規定他應該要再細緻化因為新型態的看起來太多了這只是就是近期的一個報導我看到之後就想說那如果台灣發生了該怎麼辦這是第一個"},{"start":8102.797,"end":8126.683,"text":"但第二個就是你剛剛提到的因為有時候譬如說他不在基地內他在基地外然後你們可能在偵測的時候發現可能不管是操作者在哪裡等等之類的去通報我們的航警或者是通報我們的警察這個其實在我們前幾大概4月 5月 6月的時候有發生過這個其實我們私底下也已經問過你們一次了就是說在這個4 5 6月的時候有人在這個新竹的這個機場拍到這個無人機"},{"start":8129.544,"end":8143.548,"text":"那時候我們詢問之後發現它就是屬於我剛剛講的在基地外那在基地外這個時候的處理方式就是去通報警察但現在問題來就是那我們的警察有沒有足夠的設備去對應這樣的狀況"},{"start":8153.479,"end":8179.331,"text":"都可以我是空軍參謀長對那針對您的這個問題我們在有好幾個機率都發生過在營外那警察的配備我們目前了解他跟我們一樣是有干擾槍的這個配備但是因為我們有做通報那有偵測到他的方位所以說警察大部分出去之後是以目視的方式來做一個搜索對就是說顯然他的設備可能還是不太夠對就算能量絕對不如國軍"},{"start":8180.251,"end":8205.354,"text":"所以有時候就是變成灰色地帶的問題對方 我們不知道對方到底是誰對方到底是我們是內部的是在地協力者還是有人在玩飛機這種我們不知道但是如果今天對方的配備是夠好的我們警察這邊是不夠的話那顯然因為國軍因為國軍今天按照要塞堡壘法的規定有這個第一區第二區對不對結果你們在這一個範圍之外你們想說這個交給警察處理但警察這邊的配備可能是不夠的"},{"start":8206.275,"end":8234.327,"text":"第一個配備不夠我們可以在譬如說我們在內政委會的時候我們可以請他在預算上面加強這還可以做但偵查這個部分就是情報交換這個部分就剛剛提到的中科院的可以到5公里可以到5公里就是說我們能不能夠協助就是說今天國軍能夠偵測的能夠一樣能夠分享給警察這個分享的系統是長什麼樣子至少你可以去補足他的不足所以這個補足的這個機制目前來講整體的規劃大概是什麼"},{"start":8235.479,"end":8245.691,"text":"有關這個我們把它講成區域聯防的這種整體規劃就是包含軍方 民方還有CIA重要關鍵基礎設施的這些我們正在把它規劃中會在"},{"start":8247.947,"end":8266.137,"text":"好 那這個我們在這個我們有時間的話我們來討論一下這陣地的機制好不好因為剛剛委員長講的就是在基地附近我們考慮到對民財造成傷害目前有兩種技術我們也正在發展也會很快的引入第一個就是接管Takeover我直接接管它的控制權第二種就是用橋展"},{"start":8267.317,"end":8280.012,"text":"就是鏟腳的方式因為大部分是FPV它是旋翼式的我鏟腳它以後讓它失去動力總是用一個降落傘讓它緩降也不會對一般區域造成傷害這都是我們現有正在接觸和發展的技術"},{"start":8282.354,"end":8308.648,"text":"這個剛好就讓我想到就是說你剛剛講到這一個因為這個可惜式的這一次的這個案子其實也有講到這個接管那就是說你今天在入關你不管是我應該是有放在下一張就是說我們這一次這一個115年這一個陸軍司令部有一個這一個採購計畫清單這個是還沒有還沒有成這個是還沒有編入預算對不對就我所知這個應該還沒有還沒有 對但這個裡面在講到的地方其實就有剛剛你講到的這個takeover那"},{"start":8309.048,"end":8320.494,"text":"但是因為接管某種程度是需要一些資料庫的比對那現在我們我們在做這件事情的時候我們對於資料庫的比對資料庫的建置這件事情有沒有同步進行"},{"start":8322.634,"end":8344.096,"text":"後委員這個資料庫的建置是一定要同步進行而且要不斷持續去更新對 因為它如果沒有更新的話變成說你資料庫不足你資料庫不足你就做不到接管這件事情所以這個部分我們可能之後如果這個有成案的話這個會是我們釘的一個滿大的一個重點不然的話就等於說你有這個系統你有這個偵測的範圍就你要接管的時候你接管不了那就沒有任何意義"},{"start":8345.037,"end":8357.251,"text":"好 那這個我後面因為這個我後面還有一些問題這個我晚點再講但是因為時間的關係我先問一下這個昨天這是另外一件事情就是靶場的問題因為我昨天剛好就是這個朋友跟我回報這個是桃園的市議會"},{"start":8360.174,"end":8385.895,"text":"桃園市议会他们几个议员他们在发言的时候就讲到说这一个中立龙岗要增建市内的靶场的问题这一个是看起来是确实本来那边因为那边本来就有基地可能会有一些靶场的训练有没有跟居民沟通什么这个我先摆在一边但是我在过程当中我看到当地的议员在讲说这搞不好这边以后就会有弹药库了"},{"start":8386.716,"end":8412.723,"text":"然後就把這個東西開始往外擴散擴散之後這個時候甚至是有人把它引用說以後國軍要這邊做彈藥庫我們以後這邊戰爭的時候我們就可能會被打我們要怎麼辦這個對我來講就是這是一個在地方上散播的謠言這個謠言很明顯的看起來會對國軍造成影響但是國軍有沒有辦法在第一時間因為這是在地方政府層級發生的事情但請問國軍對這件事情的回應是什麼"},{"start":8416.875,"end":8422.421,"text":"彈藥庫這件事情包委員沒有在這邊要建立彈藥庫的規劃這個也請六軍團持續的向桃園的這些議員還有里長來持續的做溝通"},{"start":8432.512,"end":8452.414,"text":"對 因為我覺得當然溝通是有必要的這個是一定的但是因為如果說在前期的溝通假設是不足的時候你看地方的議員就會站在那邊我覺得這種謠言其實是很傷就是我們最近大家對於國軍的信心當然是越來越好這個國軍的形象等等之類的但是你看在地方上如果是這樣的謠言而且還是透過議員的口中這樣講出來"},{"start":8453.675,"end":8476.975,"text":"那這個其實對這國軍如果沒有第一時間強力的回應說我們並沒有這樣的事情的話這個會造成問題所以拜託就是說這一類的事情以後這個不要說回報因為應該這個是要主動要知道說在地方上有沒有這樣的一些謠言在散播而這個謠言散播的時候有沒有有利的一個回擊我認為這個對國軍是非常重要的事情"},{"start":8477.475,"end":8495.568,"text":"但是拉回來講就是我們回到我們不要 彈藥庫沒有但是靶場這件事情因為對附近的居民大概有幾萬人然後他怕說有噪音或什麼等等之類的那這件事情的溝通就那為什麼在那邊要設靶場那個靶場的重要性是什麼然後以及這個溝通的過程是什麼是我們可以稍微說明一下"},{"start":8498.257,"end":8501.278,"text":"包委員我也很了解在很多傳統的靶場它基本上還是有噪音還有也有可能流彈的風險所以我們參考世界各國訓練上的需要我們也朝向室內靶場的一個需求來建置當然"},{"start":8515.163,"end":8533.992,"text":"室內靶場它包含到全天候不受天候的效益而且更能增加這些訓練的時數所以基本上我們的確有規劃在我們自己的龍崗訓場上面去建置但是它先期的建案程序裡面必須先做一個可行性的評估我們現在做的階段就是有關於先期規劃的現在還在可行性"},{"start":8538.674,"end":8557.562,"text":"大概要到明年的上半年底可行性評估出來這一段期間我們還是會就適時的現況持續的跟地方尊您的指導我們會持續的來做溝通說明因為可行性的評估如果現在還在做的話那過程當中第一個因為說真的根本就沒有彈藥庫"},{"start":8558.462,"end":8581.05,"text":"所以其實沒有那個恐懼如果只是單純的這個訓練這個照理說對國軍來講這天經地義這保衛國家所必要的一個訓練所以噪音的部分如果有居民的關注針對噪音的部分我看那個佔地那麼大如果室內靶場這個如果是做得好這個你說噪音我覺得可能也還好但是總之就是需要去溝通溝通完之後也可以阻止像類似的這個謠言的散播"},{"start":8581.895,"end":8603.911,"text":"我想跟各位報告就是說第一個沒有任何興建彈藥庫的一個規劃這是第一點那第二點就是說就我跟陸軍了解就是說他要在明年六月底前要完成一個可行性評估那我們就這個可行性評估還要看他的報告是如何那另外就是說我們會持續跟地方來溝通協調那取得這個"},{"start":8604.951,"end":8619.203,"text":"地方的理解我們當然也要兼顧整個戰備訓練跟民眾的權益這個我們會綜合來評估考量也就是說現在還沒有一個定案那就再拜託了謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝我們待會賴志寶委員諮詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8639.907,"end":8641.809,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是能夠有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":8649.72,"end":8676.645,"text":"這序位很好部長好今天我們的主題呢是跟無人機載具有關那當才很多的委員也針對無人機接下來96億的這個採購進行很多的這個詢問那我今天比較想問的事情是呢那有了無人機之後那我們另外與之相關的是關於人工智慧也就是AI的部分那包含是像在教養委員會他們也積極的在推動人工智慧基本法的草案"},{"start":8677.966,"end":8687.039,"text":"在審查當中所以我想要請教的是針對AI的趨勢國軍接下來是不是有比較具體的一些作為大概是要怎麼樣的來建構"},{"start":8691.839,"end":8707.76,"text":"人工智慧的這個部分在國防部這邊還處於草創的階段那目前我們配合行政院的政策指導我們先建立內部的AI人工智慧技術導入的政策指導的一個委員會"},{"start":8708.721,"end":8734.484,"text":"那就目前我們也透過我們整平思DIO這個管道去引進市場成熟的AI產品那其中尤其是有關於影像的判別以及電腦防護跟防害的這一塊是我們會先其導入那後續軍事應用的部分會是AI人工智慧的發展跟他的成熟度逐年納入我們後續的規劃"},{"start":8735.319,"end":8758.986,"text":"那你們有要建構所謂的人工智慧的專案辦公室嗎我們現在已經成立一個人工智慧專案辦公室什麼時候成立的這個部分是我們做的一個內部的組織調整它目前的階段是在做業務的整合我就問什麼時候成立的AI人工智慧辦公室是在今年的10月1號"},{"start":8761.367,"end":8778.254,"text":"我每次跟你們講話都很累所以今年10月1號的時候設立了一個人工智慧的專案辦公室那是目前是屬於你們的內部的一個組織那我想問一下就是目前的階段是如此那未來有沒有可能考慮去擴大它的規模"},{"start":8779.895,"end":8794.954,"text":"目前未來是一定會擴大它的規模未來會擴大規模那這個人工智慧專辦公室它整體的這個預算規模那你們是怎麼樣去規劃的包委員它目前是沒有我知道啊多的預算"},{"start":8795.194,"end":8824.075,"text":"我知道啊不然的話預算書上面寫大家就會問了嘛那我今天問我剛剛也搶到啦就是說你們是從你們內部那先去整合出一個人工智慧專案辦公室可是你剛剛講說你們未來有要擴大嘛那有擴大的時候那你就勢必你會動用預算或者是動用原額我再詢問的是你們接下來的下一步你要怎麼樣的去擴大那你的這個預算規模預計的原額以及團隊的人數這個部分是不是可以向我們說明"},{"start":8824.815,"end":8850.552,"text":"我們現在是剛成立還在試行現在如何擴大還沒有一個具體的決策因為為什麼要談這個就是我們今天講到無人機它其實是需要有導入AI的輔助的比舉例來說我們在風群無人機打擊目標的時候究竟我們是要打到目標無反應的殲滅或者是達到傷害效果之後那就轉移下一波的攻擊"},{"start":8851.812,"end":8868.078,"text":"這個如果我們有訓練完善的AI去下決策指令的話其實是能夠更有效率的所以我希望能夠看到我們這個所謂人工智慧專辦公室10月1號你們做了內部的成立接下來如果有進一步的我要講預算"},{"start":8868.658,"end":8882.746,"text":"人員額擴大規模相關的這個內容必須要清楚的提供給我們知道那我們在很多的一些預算審查上比如說配合無人機等等我們才能夠更清晰的去了解不曉得部長這樣可不可以"},{"start":8883.365,"end":8898.694,"text":"所以我們現在人工智慧辦公室只是一個暫時性的一個協調聯絡的一個作為都是應用宣言那未來要如何再擴大人工智慧的運用這個我想我們還有待來討論"},{"start":8899.775,"end":8911.165,"text":"那我好奇喔就是你們預計就是如果要擴大的話那有規劃就比如說半年內或者是一年後這樣子比較rough的一個就是我不跟你問這麼細就是比較彈性的一個期程嗎"},{"start":8914.478,"end":8936.327,"text":"我們現在目前還只是在易用宣言然後成立一個辦公室來作為一個協調各個需求那未來會把它考慮升級嗎就像是很多的我們在不同的部門裡面像比如說大家比較了解像什麼少子化辦公室或是等等各式各樣的辦公室"},{"start":8937.007,"end":8952.348,"text":"會朝向這個方面發展還是打算要就是用現有的這種小的內部組織然後就一路做到底了包委目前他第一階段就是先把我知道你的第一階段嘛我就在問下一階段的事情嘛"},{"start":8953.408,"end":8974.578,"text":"我們先講現在現在他是先把國防部裡面各個目前正在推動人工智慧的各司局次事的業務做一個集中匯流那下一階段我們會配合軍事投資建案裡面有關於人工智慧技術導入的這個部分去適度的調整我們所需要的原額那預算的部分當然就會出現"},{"start":8974.858,"end":8982.863,"text":"OK好所以那你們大概預計就是說到這個階段就從階段A到階段B那大概需要多久的時間"},{"start":8984.094,"end":9005.51,"text":"目前還沒有一個實證我們現在只是先做一個統籌的概念因為大家都要發展的時候我們必須要從部裡面的立場做一個整理的策略規劃了解 沒有就沒有沒關係接下來我要詢問一下我們收到的報告我回去檢查了一下最近大家都也很關心軍購案延宕的問題"},{"start":9008.732,"end":9037.311,"text":"那我們就看到關於延宕交付你們提了三案嘛那其中一案我覺得還好沒有差異很大但另外一案呢我們在10月1號其實會收到大家都有收到一份是美對台這個軍售案的公開書面資料那11月3號因為有專案報告的關係所以呢我們也有收到一份專案報告的資料那在專案報告之後我回去比對了一下10月1號的報告"},{"start":9038.712,"end":9056.363,"text":"就是說一個月之間你們所寫的內容我必須說有蠻多部分是不一樣的那到底是怎樣為什麼一個月之間你們寫的報告會有這個差距來我們從F16B來看那有不同的地方我用紅色標註那首架機原本規劃是112年出廠"},{"start":9058.864,"end":9064.405,"text":"10月1號的時候講的是因為客製化的軟體研發所以期程要調整到114年全部於115年完成可是在11月3號的時候這個客製化軟體研發的內容就不見了就只講到是產線搬遷重啟跟供應鏈中斷然後說我們要加這個加趕工等等的"},{"start":9083.25,"end":9090.998,"text":"10月1號有提到的內容11月3號沒有出現第二個MK48重型魚雷的部分原本在10月1號的時候你們的報告裡面寫到的是受到俄烏戰爭跟國際戰爭的影響供應鏈的產能"},{"start":9098.684,"end":9105.406,"text":"但在11月3號的時候而且你們當時也說調整其程式原本預計在117年結案調整其程到119年完成可是在11月3號的專案報告裡面供應鏈中斷跟重啟產線的因素是否來自於俄烏戰爭跟國際影響也不見了"},{"start":9120.489,"end":9124.751,"text":"那調整的期程變成115到117年那就是原本的結案時間但是你10月1號的時候告訴我們的是要調整期程到119年我現在想問的是為什麼你們的兩次的報告會有這樣子明顯的出入啊"},{"start":9141.201,"end":9162.334,"text":"委員好 我是空氣商務長先就F16V的部分跟您做一個報告我想這個F16V影響的這個因素我們在很多的專案報告裡面都報告過那這三個因素一直都沒有改變過也從頭到尾的講法都是一致可能是因為篇幅上顯示的關係所以有些許的不同那跟委員報告當然第一個就是產線人力的問題因為COVID-19的關係所以說產線人力的問題"},{"start":9166.997,"end":9184.549,"text":"沒關係因為這個我們上一次都講過你現在在講重複的因為我問的問題不是這個我問的問題只是說為什麼你們10月1號跟10月3號你提供給我們的報告上面會有出入好不好那這個部分我也沒有要刁難你們我只是希望未來如果說我們有專案報告的時候你們"},{"start":9186.11,"end":9211.588,"text":"你們理應當去檢視一下先前提供的資料然後跟現在的資料然後做一個對比而不是說呢10月的時候寫的是這樣11月的時候寫的是這樣那我當然是我只問一下那個後面那個MK48因為我先前沒有問過那個我目前調整期程到底是到119年完成有這件事嗎還是規劃於115年到117年全數教育呢"},{"start":9212.544,"end":9230.2,"text":"委員好 海巡視音部常常跟您說明115它會開始 它的產能已經逐漸的在加速會在117把這個魚雷交付那118年 因為它有一些附屬裝備119是全案的結案但是它的deliver會在117年沒有啊 你10月1號你寫說117年結案啊"},{"start":9233.48,"end":9250.94,"text":"10月1號我們的資料是119年是結案是119沒有沒有你說原本預計於117年結案但是調整其成到119年那我剛剛詢問的意思是說那這句話是否現在依然如此或是有所調整跟改變"},{"start":9252.419,"end":9277.326,"text":"現在目前就是在117年前會交運117年會交運就沒有119年完成這個部分沒有117年就全部結束結案我想MK48的重型娛樂的部分他應該在11月3號的報告裡面他是在講交運那至於整個的結案剛剛參謀長也提到因為結案他要後續的附屬裝備還要有一個一年的一個"},{"start":9278.806,"end":9291.089,"text":"結案合約的文件的審查那沒有問題所以這兩個的表述方法不同那另外這個客製化軟體的這個研發的這個部分在當時的這我們上次有討論過對對那所以現在應該在陸續在解決當中我們上次討論過的事情現在不用再重複因為時間很有限在更早的時間所發生的狀況再做一個說明我要強調的事情就是你看喔11月3號的時候我們要求你們來報告有關於延宕交付的部分"},{"start":9306.132,"end":9324.561,"text":"那實際上你們就是期程要到119年來正式完成那117年是教育那你應該你在11月3號專案報告你也要寫完整啊那否則的話其實要不是我看了10月1號跟11月3號我整合在一起看那我知道的資訊可能就只有一半而已"},{"start":9324.941,"end":9336.315,"text":"所以我在這裡是我真的誠心希望我們在提供報告給大家的時候可以有橫平性、一致性跟完整性不要讓我還要回去比對好不好因為時間的關係我還是要針對這個軍購延宕的問題一個一個來跟大家來做討論"},{"start":9343.584,"end":9368.318,"text":"那主要的原因是因為呢 顧不老您先前講說我們延宕的這個金額那是三千多億那我想跟這個可能很多包含是美方的智庫或是呢這個很多人的計算是不一樣的那可能計算的方法不一樣也會使得它有落差所以乾脆二十六案我們一個一個來問今天我絕對是時間不夠的但是我之後還會一直碰到您所以呢我沒有問完的部分我會接著繼續問"},{"start":9369.278,"end":9395.115,"text":"好來我們先看一下26案裡面來第一個我就把這一張那個主席給我一點時間我把這一張先問完就好了那想問一下這個F16V這個你們應該已經講過了2480億台幣的部分呢那這個它是2480億嘛那截至目前的狀況是沒有任何一台來嘛這個我們是知道的然後付出了這個1440億到我們的這個結會的戶頭裡面好這個沒有錯吧"},{"start":9400.238,"end":9410.782,"text":"我check一下我們匯到我們的FRB的帳戶裡面應該是47多那實際付款給實際付款給廠商的金額應該是32.5億美金"},{"start":9420.466,"end":9440.114,"text":"請大家以後如果我們上面寫的是台幣我們在中華民國我們就講台幣好不好因為可能要你們換算你們覺得麻煩但是因為我們這個媒體記者很多新聞還有看直播的好朋友們我們市民朋友要寫你總不能叫他去換算所以以後我們這邊講的台幣就請你們回台幣不要給我回美金不然我講2480你講30幾然後48聽起來很少不是這是美金"},{"start":9444.096,"end":9460.306,"text":"那第二個部分就是M1A2T的這個戰車那請問他目前我們當時是採購金額以及現在的交貨情況當初原本是編列390餘億元採購108輛M1A2T戰車加上他的附屬車輛跟裝備總共總額會是多少"},{"start":9471.123,"end":9491.417,"text":"總預算是405就是390餘億的雙倍款加上附屬國內的配額款我們助理記一下因為我們今天的表格的來源是來自於我們媒體的報導以及幾個重點的單位如果有不對的地方也請做指教包圍620是智慧國會價格"},{"start":9493.919,"end":9521.935,"text":"OK 好 所以最後沒有問題你就告訴我們因為我們也希望幫你們更正這些相關的內容嘛那這樣子的話我們才能夠真正算出來一個完整的數字嘛因為先前我們在上一次的時候你們是提供三個大項目嘛可是實際上我們對美的採購是有26項所以我想一項一項知道那了解清楚之後呢那大家就更知道說到底發生什麼事所以您可以再講一次我們MYA2T最後的我們的這個金額是您剛剛說是多少"},{"start":9523.155,"end":9540.482,"text":"我們原編的預算是405億這是原編預算那智慧國會的時候它出現了一個600餘億的金額可是第一版發價書出來的時候它直接降到499餘億所以最後我們是用499餘億的這個金額來去做抬購這個額度目前經過"},{"start":9550.96,"end":9577.802,"text":"數年的調整之後目前從499拉到目前是拉到453億好 453億你就直接回答正確數字就好了那請問目前交貨的狀況呢我們採購的量數以及交貨的量數目前第一批跟第二批已經交了80樣現在剩下最後一批的28量預化在明年的第一季就會交裝"},{"start":9578.582,"end":9607.593,"text":"所以剩下是還有28輛還沒有來所以我們可以看一下因為媒體報導這邊是總共有108輛顯然您剛剛說是20幾輛我們就繼續往下主席不好意思我還有三個我把它一次問完這一頁不然我後面好像未來還有很多頁請大家就簡短回答好不好F16的紅外線搜尋追蹤夾艙的部分我們是跟對方採購的金額是多少"},{"start":9611.69,"end":9614.092,"text":"然後還有我們交貨的目前情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":9620.942,"end":9650.682,"text":"我们16V的这个夹仓的部分它不是只有夹仓它还包含了武器弹药没问题总金额是428亿2000万元你把它算在一起嘛428亿2000万元那请问来的交付的状况是如何现在这个案子只完成议约阶段只有议约阶段好没有问题那MS110夹仓的部分MS111夹仓它已经完成产制目前正在测评"},{"start":9651.122,"end":9663.01,"text":"正在測評 那交付的情況呢零年底就會交付年底要全數交付那我們買了幾件沒有 它是分批因為它過來之後還要跟我們的地面站台做媒合那請問當時我們採購的價格是多少"},{"start":9666.57,"end":9683.26,"text":"我們採購98億元然後買了幾套那年底要交付6套年底要交付最後是MK75的760快泡泡座我們採購的金額以及目前的交付情況採購的金額數量以及交付情況最後一個了"},{"start":9685.254,"end":9696.761,"text":"拐六炮的那個快炮炮座他是一個後維費的案子這個我們另外再提供給委員好另外再提供給我好不好好沒有問題那我們今天就先到這裡謝謝好謝謝接下來請鄭天才委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9718.275,"end":9738.855,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長請郭部長部長好今天雖然不是跟你的職責 職長沒有直接關係了但是還是要先謝謝"},{"start":9741.433,"end":9763.629,"text":"這個花蓮光復馬太安溪淹涉浮潰壩造成重大的傷亡以及家戶社區部落土地這個農田非常大的損失這個摧毀土石的淹埋我們很多的國軍在那邊這個"},{"start":9765.956,"end":9780.28,"text":"支持救援救助非常非常的辛苦要代表謝謝我們所有的國軍那我們現在接下來還是要善後要去解決這個源頭"},{"start":9784.935,"end":9809.168,"text":"上次我在對卓院長的質詢的時候當然我沒有針對部長來質詢是針對農業部跟經濟部那我們現在來看這個國外的案例我們現在這個菸社府當然這個汽水的含量沒有像之前那麼大"},{"start":9812.395,"end":9838.013,"text":"這個造成的這些災害我們必須不要讓它再發生我們的國軍弟兄就可以不要再去那邊去救援所以我們看這個國際的三大案例第一個案例爆破開出人工易紅道這個是在蘇聯他們也是用這個"},{"start":9839.935,"end":9866.957,"text":"龐大的工程以軍事的力量決定來去協助這個當然每個案例不同所以這個是用爆破的方式那如果要爆破的話當然如果國軍能夠支援當然是一種方式當然是不是要用爆破當然由專業的團隊另外去評估了那另外一個案例開挖為主並向爆破為輔"},{"start":9868.74,"end":9893.634,"text":"這個是大陸的一個方式他也是國軍來去協助第三個案例完全用挖掘引流全部都用挖的這是美國的案例他是美國的陸軍工兵團他們去評估去評估 去協助 去了解整個狀況因為"},{"start":9896.956,"end":9919.238,"text":"這個台灣多山中央山脈或海岸山脈當然我們也要去對未來對未來國軍能夠更了解我們的山林恐怕也是非常重要所以在美國的這個案例它就是完全用挖掘"},{"start":9920.523,"end":9932.843,"text":"引流他也是用這個美國入軍的工兵團去評估之後然後怎麼樣去相關的人去包括機界因為"},{"start":9934.639,"end":9956.354,"text":"挖土机啊大家以为挖土机直接不好载运其实是可以组装的其实是可以组装的所以这个部分怎么样去能够去协助因为现在是组则组则的单位是农业部啊他们什么都没有啊农业部而且是林务级啊就是林业署啊"},{"start":9957.667,"end":9979.887,"text":"他们也不是这方面的专业他们也没有相关很多的相关的这些设施包括这个直升机啊各方面他们都没有了所以这个部分当然内政部有一部分的直升机了所以怎么样能够共同的合作来去根本的去解决这个眼头棉的"},{"start":9981.189,"end":10006.937,"text":"一地震或是一颱風又要產生這些危害都是我們要去避免的部分所以在這樣的一個情形之下這個就讓我們的這個看國防部哪些軍種哪些單位可以去共同的去協助協助這個農業部這個是我的"},{"start":10009.423,"end":10035.732,"text":"事實上以這個地形來講這個內政部的空巡總隊他們也上去過事實上這個地形也不是說完全都不能飛機不能直升機也不是完全都不能所以這個部分給國防部共同的去協助"},{"start":10038.128,"end":10048.78,"text":"農業部及相關包括這個內政部相關的單位部長這個你再請相關的單位去評估啦好不好可以嗎"},{"start":10051.068,"end":10069.988,"text":"我想國軍是作為一個協助的單位那這個應該要由這個專業的團隊去做完評估之後如果有需要國軍做協助的那國軍再根據這個評估再就我們這個能量所"},{"start":10071.005,"end":10088.261,"text":"量能所及的範圍之內去做協助因為現在農業部因為沒有相關的設施設備他只能做的方式就是把現有的林道拓寬"},{"start":10089.83,"end":10108.475,"text":"把現有的兩個林道望榮林道跟光復林道要拓寬那我認為這樣的做法當然是其中一種做法但是我認為會對山林的水土的保持可能也有很大的影響所以我才會說國防部能夠去協助"},{"start":10109.196,"end":10134.495,"text":"協助的話所以我想專業團隊評估是一件事國軍如何協助是一件事所以評估這件事情還是要由專業團隊來進行國軍是站在協助的角色剛才我提的第三個案例就是完全是美國的陸軍去評估的這個給你做參考 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請賴氏保委員上台質詢"},{"start":10145.827,"end":10150.609,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長是 老委好是 早 部長我請教簡單的問題今天講無人機我就想到MQ-9V是死神無人機是明年度確定可以交嗎請空軍說明"},{"start":10176.874,"end":10194.495,"text":"包委員 這個目前進度都是正常明年確定可以交集大概什麼時候 明年什麼時候大概在第三季的左右第三季喔 是不是跟他一起那個火山布雷也是一起交是不是火山布雷這個不是我們是不是火山布雷火山布雷原來要112年交耶"},{"start":10197.503,"end":10224.923,"text":"抱怨不是 火山布雷系統原本是118它現在已經提前到116116喔好 那我現在就問一個問題就是這裡面因為我們是跟美國買美國又對軍售特別對我們軍售有所謂的最終用戶條款進行類似出國管制所以等於是我們用它的GPS透過GPS用EGI系統"},{"start":10226.345,"end":10254.902,"text":"我們是不是所有的資料都要美國先知道再轉給我們是不是包委員最終使用過監控協議跟GPS沒有關係不是不是不是這個很清楚是透過美國軍用GPS接收機設計的慣性導航系統以及I然後才傳給台灣針對MQ-9B GPS訊號傳輸的部分因為我們是地面站台單向對接的所以沒有這個所謂外傳的問題"},{"start":10255.916,"end":10277.586,"text":"不是 要不要透過美國 不用我們直接講清楚 實際上是什麼包委 這不需要透過美國那他的GPS只是純接收我們並沒有上傳資料出去那我們的資料要不要跟美日共享不需要 這個部分是下載之後直接到我們的地面站台沒有透過美方"},{"start":10278.698,"end":10299.966,"text":"確定沒有因為外界都認為有這個資訊都要先經過美國 美國再傳給我們沒有這回事那我們自己能操作好 那麼來我看一下請部長看一下預算無人機相關的預算115年度編了108億"},{"start":10305.835,"end":10312.823,"text":"總經費就是我們的無人機的總經費編的是355億現在114年度以前已經編列了有185億到現在為止還沒有編列的有60幾億請問這些的計畫執行有沒有on schedule"},{"start":10326.226,"end":10343.152,"text":"有沒有都是按照進度在走目前這些您看到從那個遙控無人機防禦系統到底下的高高空無人機系統的部分目前都按照正常進度在執行就按照正常系統所以這個問題好 那就請教部長"},{"start":10344.764,"end":10356.264,"text":"上一次我問過你 你回答得很保守那今天我再問一次就是編那個1兆或者1.3兆的特別預算到底1兆還是1.3兆"},{"start":10357.706,"end":10380.61,"text":"我也跟委員報告現在就是還在行政院審議當中對啊 你送出去因為外面媒體有講一兆1.3這到底是哪一個對啊我們是問你這個不是機密吧因為行政院還沒有審議結果出來我想我不便在這邊說一個所以你不講就對了然後那特別預算裡面有沒有包括無人機系統 有沒有有應該有嘛而且比例還滿高的 對吧"},{"start":10387.601,"end":10413.618,"text":"我想確定的這個金額等到我們審議結果以後再跟委員做報告但是確定有那有沒有要再跟通通是國造的嗎要不要還要跟美國買我想我們確定的這個項目案項的這個部分等確定以後我們會跟委員做個報告也會對外做個現在有一個矛盾的地方啦外界不斷的批評啦 部長啊"},{"start":10414.997,"end":10441.882,"text":"就是過去都是美國核准了要軍售我們才編特別預算結果現在美國還沒有核准一毛錢也沒有核准川普上台到現在一項也沒有核准結果你就編特別預算這很奇怪啊 就對我們來講好像要一張空白支票給你一樣啊我們怎麼省啊因為裡面一定要請問你 一定要跟美國人買武器嘛 對不對"},{"start":10444.586,"end":10467.182,"text":"會有 我想我們商購 軍購不管商購 軍購都有委制都有而且大部分是跟美國買的對不對我們有一定的金額一定金額 應該超過50%吧我想確確的這個金額項目我想還是等到確定以後再跟委員報告"},{"start":10468.232,"end":10481.962,"text":"這個我就要提出來就是我再強調一遍外界不斷的質疑但是你到今天為止沒有給答案就是為什麼今年的特別預算往年都是美國核准呢"},{"start":10482.984,"end":10498.231,"text":"我們在編特別預算F16V就最好的例子結果現在為什麼你可以先偷跑先要了一張空白支票然後沒有項目你不跟我們講然後你就要編這個特別預算按正常來講的話"},{"start":10499.752,"end":10526.828,"text":"這個十一月底可能十二月初行政院就核准了就一張空白支票出來了我就不知道你到底編什麼啊因為你要的項目美國還不給你啊所以你 然後你又這裡也承認要跟美國買可是美國不准啊在裡面不是很矛盾嗎我們應該都到時候都會有一個具體的案項然後來主意跟委員做報告當然都是經過台美雙方討論之後才同意的可是到現在為止他沒有批啊"},{"start":10528.125,"end":10554.193,"text":"我想我們等這個條例確定之後那具體的案項的部分有經過台美雙方同意這個部分我們會再跟所以你的意思就是只要我們這個預算通過了只要你提出來了他們就批了是不是這個意思我想我們在事前都有經過台美雙方的協商不要忘了喔在事前川普說習近平答應他任內不打台灣"},{"start":10555.68,"end":10571.843,"text":"也就是說極有可能他的任內用什麼來交換他不賣武器給台灣喔這可能性存在喔結果你現在說台美怎麼樣還是聽川普的啊川普用他保證習近平跟他保證任內不會打台灣是這個啊你不覺得這裡面你心裡邊這個預算不會毛毛的嗎我都替你毛毛的"},{"start":10584.124,"end":10602.153,"text":"最後一點 最後一點預算 我看到的預算你們明年度的預算類似請國外的顧問 特別是美軍的顧問以前幾百萬而已 預算明年度變了一億你要不要解釋一下 為什麼變這麼多為什麼變這麼多"},{"start":10606.724,"end":10621.274,"text":"包委員那個不是請美方的顧問那是一個整體的戰力評估案以前都幾百萬為什麼現在有1億呢以前幾百萬的原因是因為美國國會在這個部分他挹注了數千萬美元在上面"},{"start":10622.245,"end":10639.183,"text":"現在不依住了那今年開始美方希望我們在評估的這一段能夠以共同分攤的方式來執行那以前幾千萬美金那很多錢有幾十億喔那你現在變一億也不夠啊如果照你這樣講"},{"start":10639.949,"end":10652.359,"text":"目前這是初步的規劃這個我再強調一遍以前都是變幾百萬去年今年的五百萬明年變一億這非常的可疑好謝謝我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":11003.494,"end":11009.239,"text":"請大家就座我們繼續開會接下來請王紅薇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請那個我們部長顧立雄顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11029.808,"end":11033.049,"text":"部長 我們其實除了國防之外我們針對無人機的採購還有甚至無人載具的採購事實上有一個千億的採購計畫這裡面還包含行政院其他的軍警銷之類的我們整個無人機的採購計畫可以看到"},{"start":11053.96,"end":11074.282,"text":"金額很龐大而且也編列相關的預算但是呢過去我們也有相關的尤其國防部所屬的無人機的採購計畫那如果你看過去的預算執行可以發現在這個無人機的部分"},{"start":11075.423,"end":11102.394,"text":"這個保留數保留的比例是相當大的即便到113年也將近25%之多而且呢這些相關的保留的原因有一些是進度落後有一些是認證沒有執行然後其中呢有關於性能測試的驗收不合格那麼也是使得在"},{"start":11103.214,"end":11115.068,"text":"但該年度的預算沒有辦法完成之用所以辦理預算保留所以我想請教部長我們現在特別預算再增加無人武器那問題是這個產能"},{"start":11118.431,"end":11120.513,"text":"是足夠的嗎而且你按照過去這個保留率一向偏高的狀況那我們繼續編列這麼多的特別預算請問一下能夠如數執行呢還是會重蹈覆轍最後這些預算又繼續的保留反而去排擠掉"},{"start":11140.505,"end":11160.536,"text":"其他的相關的預算支出因為我們不要忘記我們其實包含今年度明年度的國防的預算支出已經佔整個的總預算的比例已經非常大明年度要佔到將近三分之一所以我想請教部長你所了解你們有沒有去檢討"},{"start":11161.776,"end":11176.934,"text":"過去的預算執行然後現在的預算編列這樣子確實能夠去執行還是只是有預算就直接的把它放進去以所謂的這個國防任性能要到錢就要到錢"},{"start":11179.147,"end":11202.586,"text":"剛剛委員提到就是說因為我們要來進行這樣子的一個無人系統的載具的需求當然是基於我們防衛作戰的一個需求所計算出來的那國內的這個產能的部分當然我們也是在這個符合我們作戰需求的前提之下我們希望讓這個整個無人的"},{"start":11204.148,"end":11209.679,"text":"機的產業能夠起來這個當然是一個附加的一個效果同時也能夠帶動整個無人機產業來達到我們自主生產的一個韌性"},{"start":11215.587,"end":11219.272,"text":"我這完全知道啊我現在問你的問題你答非所問嘛我問的問題是說你難道過去的無人機的採購難道也不是根據你的需求所編列的嗎當時你也一定是說根據你的需求編列但是它在執行的時候就有我剛才所講的問題嘛"},{"start":11234.73,"end":11245.138,"text":"很多他就進度落後啦或者是整個的認證根本沒有辦法驗收合格啊所以你的保留因為我現在講的你們有沒有去檢討你在預算保留這麼多保留這麼多沒有辦法執行然後你繼續編列這個大筆的預算那你繼續編列大筆預算其結果你又沒有辦法執行你又繼續的保留那事實上就是排擠其他的啊"},{"start":11260.29,"end":11275.476,"text":"包委員 我們的確有去檢討在第一批我們採購三規軍用無人機的這個部分中間的確遇到一些國內產能技術性的困難所以我們未來無人機的大量償單的這個規劃的部分是由軍備局"},{"start":11276.656,"end":11278.937,"text":"來做委制那針對我們的需求跟國內的能力做一個通販性的規劃在國內產業具體能夠生產的前提之下來規劃未來這個案子我上次在執行部長的時候因為你們現在是無人載具你這1000億包含無人機還有無人艇嘛"},{"start":11295.265,"end":11310.503,"text":"那時候我就說啦你這麼龐大的這些預算其實所謂的無人機國家隊其實現在當然就是說現在是鞠躬產業那包含你這個無人艇現在也是只有台船 隆德跟中信"},{"start":11311.324,"end":11326.253,"text":"這三家在做嘛那你能不能增加其他的業者進來我在上星期的質詢也是一樣所以我的意思說我們今天的無人武器無人載具你們不要動不動就以所謂的需求任性等等但是一定要去檢討你的預算有沒有在繼續保留的問題那另外我想請教部長最近呢在網路"},{"start":11340.242,"end":11343.045,"text":"熱議就是我們現在這個M1A2T這個戰車的亮相結果我們的備章出現了Taiwan Army"},{"start":11352.179,"end":11356.04,"text":"可是很多人講說你去中華最後變成去中華民國化這不是國軍嗎這不是國軍我們國家的名稱不是中華民國嗎為什麼不用ROC Army怎麼會變成台灣Army如果你今天看美國美國不然就是US Army不然就是US Navy不然的話也是放在美國的國旗那我請問一下這個備章是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":11381.268,"end":11397.313,"text":"跟委員報告我想最主要這是一個紀念備章那M1A2T這個後面這個T就是專門被台灣打造的那您講的中華民國陸軍這個在我們的彌彩湖的左胸前這個中華民國陸軍一直存在"},{"start":11398.188,"end":11406.955,"text":"那你但是你這個一樣是配在我們國軍的備章上啊你這個是怎麼樣你所謂的紀念備章是怎麼樣是商品還是怎麼樣還是紀念小物是這個意思嗎陳軍使的一個為了做為陳軍的一個紀念備章那以後佩戴是什麼以後佩戴是什麼備章"},{"start":11424.587,"end":11431.283,"text":"呃 這個備章呃 佩戴它 佩戴備章啊所以我就問你啊 你到底是紀念小屋還是怎麼樣 吉祥物"},{"start":11432.912,"end":11454.627,"text":"包委員 簡單的說 剛才部長已經說明了這是一個紀念備章 它主要在陳軍典禮上面為了彰顯官兵宦訓的辛勞與榮譽它基本上就配發給官兵收職所以ROC2明明有榮譽感我們永久佩戴的其實就是我們胸前的中華民國陸海空軍還有包含到我們右臂上面懸掛的中華民國國旗這是不會改變的"},{"start":11457.389,"end":11461.39,"text":"我希望就是說今天在政治上動不動再搞這個去中化最後去來去去變成去中華民國化這個是在國際裡面我覺得這是絕對絕對不要這樣子搞法的好不好那全世界也是這樣他會搞出一個什麼NY Army嗎CA Army嗎 不是嘛他還是要有國家至上的榮譽感嘛"},{"start":11483.41,"end":11503.625,"text":"跟委員報告 我想剛剛講的明彩湖的左胸有中華民國陸軍那右臂的備章是國旗那另外聯兵三營裡面它也有專屬的備章在584旅都會有一個專屬的備章那這個當然就是為了M1A2T這個成軍的時候的一個紀念的備章我想這個已經多次的說明了"},{"start":11504.11,"end":11517.655,"text":"但是也是還是引起外界高度的質疑其實重點就是不要去中化搞到變成去中華民國化去國家化這一點是非常非常重要的好 謝謝"},{"start":11522.796,"end":11543.996,"text":"我們所有的武器裝備他們給我們如果是為台灣做的他都是for Taiwan都是有T如果是這樣過去也有很多所以我想其實這個中華民國的國軍他是有一定的歷史嚴格我們也希望可以確保這樣榮譽你既然胸前或你如果是紀念小物其實你可以做其他的東西這個我想其實也讓我們的國軍"},{"start":11547.219,"end":11557.883,"text":"是有這樣的一個概念應該會更好不要把政治都纏入在裡面接下來請謝榮介委員上台質詢主席我請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11582.159,"end":11583.779,"text":"我請教你我們台灣對外的採購武器坦白說我們在國際的局勢對我們很不利所以有很多需要去跟人家討協有很多我們會去受到委屈這我想日本人都可以體諒我們的鄉親也都可以體諒"},{"start":11611.55,"end":11615.194,"text":"但是這個海群河 國難國責 老總統當選的時候 曾經有說要停了我請問是你把他說好嗎 你把他說好 所以最後繼續國見國照 那個賴總統曾經要喊停 那是部長你說服他嗎"},{"start":11636.98,"end":11644.844,"text":"我那時候沒有要公佈 我知道你沒有在公佈因為你那時候的公安會也很重要的事嘛是誰把他說服的我想這個潛艦國造的部分的建案是不是請海軍來做決定誰說服了賴總統要繼續推動的"},{"start":11660.958,"end":11687.8,"text":"跟委員報告其實潛艦國造從很早開始從民國90年開始所以說它是一貫的政策老總統當選的時候要喊停嘛那是誰說服他了報告委員我們沒有掌握到要喊停我們一直都知道因為這是一個必要的潛艦的一個國家不對稱的一個戰略必須要持續去獲得這個 相信這部分沒辦法給他問這幾天你如果不知道的話 老前提會不會跟你說"},{"start":11690.287,"end":11715.26,"text":"來 保證我請教你海群河喔 已經付多少錢處理了實際已經支付了多少錢這海群來回答好來 各位報告原型建總共是493億那目前的部分我們都已經預約在開始付付多少錢啊現在我們還有將近還有"},{"start":11716.687,"end":11728.572,"text":"因為測試還沒有在付給台船的預約款有三期是19.2億就是493減到20大概470億左右還有武器的部分沒關係啦對這個部分我們部長我請教你喔台準碰到這世界各國台海有八國這的共營商的合約書部長請教你有看過嗎"},{"start":11747.207,"end":11761.534,"text":"詳細的那個客戶我沒有...你沒看?很可惜喔因為伊利登基在法律界你這麼賴啦應該這個合約書你看到我們可以省很多錢啦所以這個部分是由台存跟外國的供應商去處理你也沒看到這個合約我們跟台存的合約你有看嗎?"},{"start":11774.366,"end":11782.577,"text":"我 想這是淨井 就是說原型建的部分這是恰到以前的 我知道啦 但是你做補充後你沒想說外面窗戶到風風雨雨 你也拿一本回來看嗎"},{"start":11787.018,"end":11799.901,"text":"跟委員報告他整個的合約就是海軍有個專案團隊我們也有建造組那我們也有合約的這個部分有請專案律師還有2840個因為這牽涉到阿伯七代啦所以大家關心的這次的判決做完做一半的判決就好了 不然在裡面再做判決你阿伯再一樣的錯誤繼續發生"},{"start":11815.885,"end":11817.766,"text":"我們台灣的鄉親是不能挽留人的那在採訪的過程中有發生這個問題甚至設置目前現年看來有問題我很慎重請教顧部長在測試的這個海昆號有沒有焊接問題有沒有因為焊接造成的漏水問題"},{"start":11842.847,"end":11846.348,"text":"沒有沒有 內部有漏水的問題嗎都做過水密的測試 都通過所有的發動機 包括現在沒辦法藏在水底有不可恢復的信訊嗎"},{"start":11867.105,"end":11884.849,"text":"我沒聽過說你沒聽他們說過所以這裡的信箱都可以修理就對了目前都已經在做多部主機的測試我們在做前行前的最後測試跟裝備的檢整都可以修理都可以恢復所有這裡北角以上這裡的供應商供應的器材料都有合乎我們的檢測標準嗎"},{"start":11896.857,"end":11915.836,"text":"抱歉 是的所以 為什麼不處理農莊標準結果撐不下去 鋪不起來這就嚴重了抱歉 要跟委員報因為我們所有的驗測的程序都要做每個程序發現問題就解決問題那現在已經到了那是什麼會給你們延長"},{"start":11917.417,"end":11939.474,"text":"延遲就是因為發學的一些問題就要做幫裝備的調校調校會涉及到不同的這個廠家跟我們專業團隊還有操作人員要共同解決這個問題我們現在的測試的延後在兩個月左右但是我們建設是正常那這兩個月後我們現在正在目前就在加緊在做目標是這樣啦但是兩個月後會淡不淡也沒辦法補正是不是"},{"start":11943.472,"end":11967.254,"text":"我們現在就是 朝這個目標來邁進可以達成使命那就是一月份下潛這個詳細的時間我們會在完成評估之後會再統一跟大家講但是將近不會太久你們這次做下潛測試準備有多少深度"},{"start":11968.526,"end":11981.829,"text":"就我們之前的工程的一個說明部分潛航 潛水潛航大概在50公尺上下我聽到5公尺 盲用5公尺報告員不會有這個情形嗎我們會審慎安全評估2026年1月份50公尺潛航測試多久時間看狀況"},{"start":11995.834,"end":12023.195,"text":"現在目前沒有2026年1月前航50公尺這個時間沒有我說我們現在跟原先的設定的delay是兩個月那我們現在正在要說所以遙遙無期我剛才跟你鼓勵要達成什麼遙遙無期我們現在就在前航標準達成之後沒有意義啦是是做好才來騎啦難叫你停了也沒意思啦發生意外沒人等會去嘛但是"},{"start":12025.917,"end":12039.346,"text":"有很多細節啦 時間的問題 我要講 針對那一群合 我有很多細節要跟你們請教所以希望你們最好 我建議政府單位 你跟臺準的合約書你付臺準470億 我要請教你 臺準已經付付這個經營最多錢"},{"start":12051.183,"end":12073.621,"text":"現在400多億裡面就建造款的時候應該是368億所以現在因為他還沒有按照這個期程完成這個潛航的節點所以潛航的測試所以會在依照這個節點付款然後在完成潛航測試以後才會再陸續付後面的款項那實際"},{"start":12074.721,"end":12077.284,"text":"台船已經付給這幾個國家的供應商的款項多少 你可以告訴我嗎 這個是機密嗎"},{"start":12092.003,"end":12093.264,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":12125.828,"end":12131.213,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長請顧部長是楊維"},{"start":12138.24,"end":12159.135,"text":"部長好 我們來討論無人載具裝備部隊的規劃跟特別預算的規劃我們今天討論的這個規劃的議程因為近年來無人載具含空中 地面以及海上都已經成為戰場主力的一個趨勢所以首先要請教部長我們國軍是否已經"},{"start":12160.376,"end":12172.809,"text":"建立了專責的無人載具作戰單位或者是編制那國軍隊與無人載具在我們的戰力上面你的角色跟你的規劃方向是什麼請做說明請做記事"},{"start":12174.877,"end":12196.483,"text":"保委員我是座議事次長公委員報告有關無人機專責部隊的編制我們按照貨裝的期程目前已經編成了陸戰隊有火力營無人機營另外北中南各軍團有編成無人機的大隊那結合未來貨裝的期程會逐步再編成其他類型的專責部隊來去做無人機的操作跟戰術運用"},{"start":12197.731,"end":12207.741,"text":"所以確實我們是有所規劃而且在執行之所以部長根據日前媒體的一個報導我們政府電子採購網公開的資訊我們在3號公布了一項涉及635套"},{"start":12214.528,"end":12241.227,"text":"可稀釋的無人機反制系統公開來月亮案它的總金額是高達96億元它更著名它的預算來源是115年至117年度特別預算請教部長這到底什麼狀況你們的規劃這個特別預算是不是屬實那你的進度又是如何呢"},{"start":12242.54,"end":12270.89,"text":"请做说明报告 报告委员陆军参谋长向您报告第一个这个公开阅览是依据政府采购法第34条当然它的主要目的是也是为了了解国内的商情还有相关的规格的一个征求那它不是一个正式的招标文件所以它在上面它还有著名预算尚未奉核然后等到真的获得了预算的法源之后才予登录好 谢谢你那部长"},{"start":12271.75,"end":12291.382,"text":"那到底現在公開閱覽的上面是住民115年到117年的特別預算因為到目前為止現在是114年11月份立法院還沒有收到這樣的訊息那請教部長到底有沒有要編列這樣的預算我想"},{"start":12296.143,"end":12319.029,"text":"剛剛參謀長已經說明了現在就是在一個公開徵詢的一個階段那要有這個預算的編列一定要到大院來那請教部長到底你國防部會不會編列這個預算我們當然會有一個規劃所以你會編那這個規模也就是照這個公開院的數字一樣是96億是從115年到117年是不是如此"},{"start":12323.526,"end":12348.556,"text":"相關的這個規劃我想還要等到最後確定以後當然啊 因為你已經公開閱覽了嘛你已經公開閱覽那現在是114年的11月份我們現在沒有看到特別預算請問你什麼時候會編出來我想現在在行政院審議當中就請 等行政院的審議預算已經送行政院沒有 現在條例"},{"start":12349.694,"end":12371.628,"text":"條例送行政院所以還沒有這個預算預算的具體的項目還沒有等條例你這個行政院合併之後你就會編列預算 流程是如此嘛你條例 現在您的進度北析解讀的正不正確你現在條例已經送到行政院來做審議是不是在審議當中預計什麼時候會審議完成"},{"start":12374.28,"end":12401.77,"text":"我想還沒有辦法 我要看行政院因為這是行政院的權責那請問今年年底你會不會提出這一筆特別預算我想就依照行政院的這個指導規劃來辦理規劃辦理 所以確定是有這一筆預算跟這個條例確定也是有這個方向跟規劃115年到117年的這個特別預算案是不是如此"},{"start":12402.603,"end":12432.243,"text":"我們整個的特別預算案應該現在規劃是七年的特別預算案好 你講到這裡我們現在理清楚了一件事情因為軍購的特別預算到底情況是怎麼樣上一次本席在大院裡頭也跟您討論過那院長也說院長說他知道這個事情那他也說進度到底在哪裡你也特別補充特別條例就是已經送到行政院在做審議的工作是不是如此"},{"start":12433.443,"end":12459.79,"text":"對 應該是由政委在做審議那這個規模是不是照我們在媒體上以及貴黨的委員在美國所說的是7年同時是達到1.3兆的預算是不是如此 我想這個我還是在重複就是說關於這個預算的這個規模還是要等行政院審議的結果你的方向是不是如此是不是史上最高的特別預算"},{"start":12460.31,"end":12482.167,"text":"我想還是 是不是我們還是等行政院的最後審議結果來決定來在對外公布行政院審定是您去籌劃出來嗎我們既然確定是有涉事那會不會超過一兆以上我想我們還是要尊重行政院的審議部長 這個也就是今天是114年11月了你們的公開閱覽說115年到117年"},{"start":12488.587,"end":12515.952,"text":"是多少 96億的預算我們到現在還沒有收到 這第一個第二個 本席一直請教民眾希望知道國家的安全我們絕對支持但是我們要知道到底內容是什麼我們的預算規模是什麼我們的預計期程是什麼因為這個是整個國家財政的一個紀律跟辯列但是到目前為止 本席再請教"},{"start":12517.85,"end":12541.546,"text":"我們如此的反覆的尋答得到的答案是確定有這個條例送到行政院正在審議當中那麼也確定你們公開閱覽的是115年到117年的特別預算裡頭包括無人載具的部分是96億 是96億是不是如此"},{"start":12542.889,"end":12552.234,"text":"公務員報告就是說這個稀釋的無人機反制系統剛剛陸昕參謀長你講了現在正在一個公開徵求這個商情的一個階段"},{"start":12553.615,"end":12581.825,"text":"那至於其他所有相關的這些規劃我想我們必須尊重行政院那也一定會接受立法院的監督好 所以我們可以確定因為民眾要知的權利嘛我們可以確定115年到117年照你們的規劃特別預算是96億的無人載具的一個建制第二個也就是史上最高的特別預算應該是會超過一兆以上7年的編列是不是如此"},{"start":12583.198,"end":12589.312,"text":"我想還是等最後行政院的審議結果我們再對外公開跟還有跟委員來特別說明"},{"start":12590.715,"end":12616.637,"text":"董事長我們談論過幾次我現在你們什麼都講不清楚難怪民眾會感覺不知所措我們真正希望國家的安全再次強調我們絕對全力支持但是當你公開閱覽已經年限住民金額的時候你還是不願意跟民眾來說明清楚你們的進度到底是如何"},{"start":12617.197,"end":12631.133,"text":"我想這個應該有精進的一個空間可惜是無人機的反制系統是在我們規劃的這個特別預算的項目之一無人機的反制是在你的特別預算的項目之一是不是"},{"start":12632.314,"end":12646.781,"text":"是不是所以也就是本席一再強調的七年1.3兆的這個預算項目之一是不是我想還是提到這個金額的部分還是有待行政院審議你不承認1.3兆沒關係那是在這個你們規劃的範圍項目之一是不是"},{"start":12651.543,"end":12680.467,"text":"依照公開的狀況的話這個是我們有這樣的需求有這樣的需求 本席是請問部長本席是請問我們在討論的史上最高的特別預算這一個我們剛剛所說的公開閱覽的可西氏無人機反制系統96億115年到117年是不是在你的本席認為史上最高特別預算的項目之一是不是 部長"},{"start":12682.433,"end":12702.622,"text":"報告委員剛剛部長已經說是我們的規劃內容但是我還是要重述這個條例要先過當然這個流程我們談論過很多次了大家都知道流程對對對那部長是不是我再一次請教是不是在我們史上有可能是史上最高特別預算的項目之一"},{"start":12703.682,"end":12714.749,"text":"因為我們現在114年11月我們看不到你們送來的預算但是你在公開月欄裡頭已經有這樣註明我想我們會按照程序來合訂行政院審議合訂條例之後我們會送到大院來審議那審議通過以後我們才能夠編列相關的預算"},{"start":12726.178,"end":12741.196,"text":"所以在你的條例裡頭也有這一個也就是這個可吸式無人機的可吸剛已經講了這是我們的規劃的需求但是還要等到條例如果條例沒有辦法通過也就沒有這個預算的編列的可能性"},{"start":12741.937,"end":12760.929,"text":"好 那這個反推就是在這個項目之一啦當然本席一再強調因為民眾有知的權利我們也希望國家的安全這是非常重要但是我還是要強調一次一句話 不能說攀爛海也不能把人民當提款機我們一起鞏固國家的安全 謝謝好 謝謝韋謝謝 接下來"},{"start":12770.904,"end":12778.689,"text":"請羅廷偉委員 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員不在請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請顧立雄部長請顧部長"},{"start":12797.981,"end":12823.183,"text":"顧部長好顧部長剛聽您在接受幾位委員的答詢其實講的都相對保守我確認幾個部分就是現在國防部目前有提出特別預算的需求是不是給行政院審議條例在送行政院審議是那裡面有包括說預算的金額規模大小我想條例的這個部分在行政院審議當中我知道條例裡面有包含有沒有包含嗎這個總"},{"start":12825.967,"end":12854.425,"text":"有沒有包含可以講嘛如果國安不能講不能講沒關係我只是尊重但是我現在想確認的是條例裡面有沒有包含規模跟時程是 包委員條例裡面有預算上限有預算上限嘛對嘛就跟我們處理特別條例一樣都一樣嘛有譬如說多少億的預算上限嘛好所以第一有預算的規模那第二審議當中所以你現在也不能證實或說如果行政院還沒有核定的話你也不能講我尊重因為這確實"},{"start":12855.626,"end":12869.737,"text":"但是我們有看到最近有出現這所謂的公開閱覽那公開閱覽媒體也報導說它不是一個正式的招標公告是收集各界對於招標文件的意見所以未來招標公告也可能有出入對不對"},{"start":12871.038,"end":12893.954,"text":"是是嗎好那問題來啦我們軍購也好或是一般的政府採購也好其實也蠻長的就是我們政府部門要做事情的時候我也會諮詢廠商的意見看合理的價格多少錢來編列預算然後到最後推出標案但不是說我一定指定給誰而是說我了解市場上的行情之後我推出來的這個標案"},{"start":12895.675,"end":12906.916,"text":"透過公開採購招標的過程裡面那我們來做一個最終得標可是我們也知道我們的對象相對來講軍購就比較局限美方"},{"start":12907.722,"end":12926.46,"text":"對不對那所以說對象比較局限那另外第二個部分通常我們在做這樣子的合理的一個推估的時候從來不會把我們的預算上限或是我們最低底線要編多少錢給講出來嘛可是現在就有民進黨的委員到美國去講了一個1.3兆的數字啊"},{"start":12927.762,"end":12956.227,"text":"那1.3兆數字出來之後全國華人才會覺得是說為什麼現在都在行政院審議當中你有條例裡面有但我沒有問因為我也不清楚我相信你也不方便講可是為什麼會出現1.3兆那1.3兆出來了不就是把底牌先出來給其他人看嗎那未來的這些來投票的廠商或潛在的投票廠商他不就是會看你已經有1.3兆啊所以我即便我價格沒有那麼高我也可以喊到那麼高啊因為你到時候你有錢來買單啊"},{"start":12960.277,"end":12988.116,"text":"來1.3兆這怎麼來的能不能評論包委員1.3兆這個數字我們實在無從得知沒有什麼無從得知剛剛新聞已經出來了就民進黨的委員那兩個跑去一個還是我們外交國防的兩個都外交國防的委員跑去美國然後美國的報導中央社寫回來的我們國內大家媒體都寫了包委員這個我們無從得知因為他不是從國防部洩露出去的秘密"},{"start":12989.429,"end":13013.709,"text":"這個不是國安部提供的資料好 那就行政院囉所以行政院透過民進黨的委員去跟美國放消息告訴美國說我們有這個錢啊你們放心的報價吧我想國安部沒有任何這樣的一個意思是 我相信你們沒有這個意思嘛這個我相信啊因為我覺得我們要成一件事情不可能我先透露底牌啊而且"},{"start":13015.551,"end":13032.367,"text":"來 透露了底牌是不是對於我們的溢價也會比較辛苦我覺得會喔您現在講的是個別的項目還是因為現在講的是整體的預算的上限整體的規模嘛那整體的規模可以透露嗎"},{"start":13033.345,"end":13059.584,"text":"整體的規模現在就是還在行政院審議當中對 還在審議當中嘛但本期現在問的是說大家問正常管道都問不出來嘛但是就有一個1.3兆的數字出來啦那如果說到之後出來行政院核定我不知道但行政院感覺起來短期內在今年就會出來那行政院如果出來到之後是1.35兆 1.38兆那是不是合理懷疑他其實講得很正確啊"},{"start":13062.134,"end":13084.202,"text":"我想我們對個別委員的發言只能表示尊重但是我們沒有辦法表示任何的意見部長我很難得其實我再次強調在法學界來講我尊重您過去的專業但是在過去這一年多您擔任國防部部長我很難得看到您那麼的沒有像以前那麼大鳴大放"},{"start":13086.033,"end":13106.683,"text":"上有長官下也有同仁結果你變夾在中間然後好像什麼都不敢講那聯邦我們國軍弟兄捍衛應有權也沒有捍衛那我只講一件事啊真的大家想一下如果今天換位子今天是兩個國民黨的委員跑去美國講這個數字的話會被什麼樣輿論攻擊邁台透露機密國安機密透露"},{"start":13116.548,"end":13135.084,"text":"結果是兩個民進黨的國防委員會的委員 合適嗎那我們到底要不要特別預算捍衛中華民國 捍衛台灣 我都支持我願意用生命捍衛中華民國 跟大家一樣"},{"start":13136.499,"end":13165.053,"text":"那但是如果說我們存在這樣的一個狀況我不知道他們是什麼心態是有被上層授意就是要先去透露風聲安撫美國安撫某些特定人士還是說他們只是轟行先知道了什麼消息所以說就是想要去搶個獨家但重點是對於我們國軍弟兄我們今天討論這些東西然後結果大家啞口無言不覺得對國軍弟兄是一種傷害嗎"},{"start":13176.074,"end":13184.198,"text":"部長我們繼續加油啦中華民國國防靠大家捍衛但是我們一起努力為中華民國打拚謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請李昆城委員李昆城 李昆城委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請謝一鳳 謝一鳳 謝一鳳委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":13222.199,"end":13250.166,"text":"你好 我們請部長請顧部長是 陳委員好部長好部長 這個烏俄戰爭讓大家知道說無人機的重要但是它是也有限制的那根據瑞典國防院它的分析它指出這個FPV摧毀裝甲的實際效果那通常是在20到25%左右"},{"start":13250.766,"end":13270.223,"text":"那會依照操作人員的素質那目標類型還有是否使用像是光線連線等等因素會有一些大幅的變動那也就是說便宜不見得是有效那大量的堆砌也不見得代表說戰力就會按比例增加"},{"start":13271.204,"end":13298.649,"text":"那在現在這種操作特別是FPP的操作上那還是偏向有人操作還是有操作員拿去操作也算是人力密集的工作那過去我們看在初期戰爭的時候他是有效的來去壓制他們的各種他們裝甲兵力等等但是隨著時間的推移那俄羅斯他反制的能力也增加那他也都是在針對這一個操作人員"},{"start":13299.625,"end":13325.465,"text":"那再加上電子干擾那還有在可能在城鎮的這個環境下他的訓練負擔還有物質的風險還有命中率都會放大所以說我想請教一下我們現在的無人機假設是以這種第一人稱的這種無人機的這個採購的話那當然現在還是以這個有人操作為主什麼時候大概有可能會成全面的這種AI化的可能性想請教一下部長怎麼看"},{"start":13330.885,"end":13346.442,"text":"那位軍備局局長啊來說個說明啊我們現在針對啊之前我們七月份的五行基美我們會按照我們軍種的作戰的需求那還有結合到我們國內的廠門當然包含到嘉峪亞太啊還有一些國內的"},{"start":13347.843,"end":13370.578,"text":"現在初期 初期當然是可能會用一個人用加工 FPV 就跟委員講的那這個的數量需要人力 我們會循序漸進的到了一年之後或甚至兩年我們就會用群工減少這種人力的操作 用AI去識別 追瞄 甚至用"},{"start":13371.158,"end":13380.25,"text":"Match去多點去遙控我們的G群來做一個配合新的科技的發展這個都在我們的合約的設計當中以上報告"},{"start":13381.104,"end":13408.363,"text":"好 謝謝 所以說現階段我們目前這個AI全面AI化還是需要一點時間嗎是那因為我現在得到的訊息是蠻就是不太一樣有些人說現在全世界完全AI化的無人機還沒有有些人說已經有我想請教這個局長到底是現在的科技的這個進展到什麼程度"},{"start":13408.843,"end":13429.432,"text":"恩委員報告全部都是AI化包含群工而言在世界上還沒有嗎成熟度也不是很好還要一點時間所以說我們現在就是做交替就是說先從我們有人控制開始然後慢慢的再往這個全面性群工就是這樣"},{"start":13430.778,"end":13446.41,"text":"那在這個期間這個過渡期我們現在是也算是最最後階段的過渡期那烏克蘭有出現這種無人機的軍團獎勵的制度那就是說他們在實際作戰的時候那如果你有擊中得分那你就可以直接"},{"start":13447.21,"end":13467.191,"text":"就集中的話得分或者是用換武器的方式他用這種方式用激勵型的方式那去鼓勵無人機的飛手那去拼他的戰果那說制度實施一年之後他的俄軍的傷亡顯著增加兩倍那這方面的做法不知道我們有沒有要採取或者是來仿效"},{"start":13468.451,"end":13487.01,"text":"抱怨我是座議事次長剛剛委員所提示的這些烏克蘭現在在戰場上為了提升他的殺傷率來鼓勵官兵的這種積分的做法我們有在做掌握所以我們現在也藉由跟各個不同國家交流的方式現在也正在觀察無人機競賽"},{"start":13488.871,"end":13509.118,"text":"還有在納進來在不管是在社團的活動去做建置這個我們也納在未來的規劃項目當中那等到我們無人機逐漸籌貨之後希望未來有機會在國內籌辦不管是軍或民之間的這種無人機競賽來去提高我們這些無人機操作手在執行上的這個純熟度"},{"start":13510.678,"end":13532.515,"text":"跟激勵他們的作為非常鼓勵做這件事情那我也希望可以跟教育部合作我講這件事情是因為我們包含西口國中那他們自己都有自己的無人機隊那其實這種競賽的模式從小朋友他最開始就可以培養出對理工的這種喜歡那對這種操作我想都是有幫助的不過他們通常經費都來自於教育部"},{"start":13533.215,"end":13556.638,"text":"我是希望說國防部如果可以從他們小朋友們年輕的時候開始就給予一些激勵的話那對未來產業它不見得一定要走國防軍事它也可以在未來如果對這種產業有興趣的話它也可以去我們的民雄航太園區裡面有除了這個中科院之外也有一般招商的地方那就從小就可以培養出這樣子的可能性所以我說我們國防預算編列的時候"},{"start":13557.679,"end":13578.606,"text":"那國防教育那特別是從中小學高中這些是不是也可以考量一下給我們一些這樣的預算來去鼓勵我們這些國中同學們我們軍中要辦這個無人機的競賽之外那麼跨部會的這個部分我們基於全民國防的這個理念我們也會來支持"},{"start":13579.235,"end":13594.548,"text":"因為我舉西口作為它是我們嘉義縣的三區的鄉鎮那是全縣最老年化的部分但同時它又有全縣接受最新科技最尖端科技從國中就開始培養了"},{"start":13595.288,"end":13616.043,"text":"那我们是希望说未来国防部编列预算的时候可以思考一下是不是可以给这些同学更多的机会所以我们以后就是不用只跟教育部去申请经费让他们去参加无人机的这种比赛或者是辞职培养他们甚至是可以自己维修这些国中的同学是可以自己维修那我们在无人机的这一个"},{"start":13618.045,"end":13638.661,"text":"籌貨的部分我們是除了說希望它能夠去作戰之外我們也是希望說它可以把它成為一個讓我們的這些訓練能源不僅僅是會飛它未來還可以修還可以換因為它還有籌載所以這些從小都有一些概念的話我想相信對這個產業是會有很大的幫助"},{"start":13639.472,"end":13666.979,"text":"再我還是再提一下就是關於歐洲幾個主要的國家像是英國它近年來對國防預算的編列它是採20 40 40的配置也就是說它還是保有20%的傳統軍事系統在40%它是把攻擊型無人機小型無人機是在複雜地形的戰略目標40%的經費主要是做一些無人機跟協同的系統"},{"start":13667.799,"end":13681.905,"text":"所以我想請教一下部長在這個國防部的預算當中我們未來在常規火力攻擊型無人機或者是這個潛艇的配置大概是用這樣子的方式嗎清北局說明一下"},{"start":13683.905,"end":13700.368,"text":"跟委員報告我們任何一個的配置都是依照連山的一個作戰需求多少的偵察機然後要配多少的攻擊機等等的那我們這一次委員已經有看到我們公告的五行級裡面就有偵察機"},{"start":13701.309,"end":13729.025,"text":"那其他四型就一型偵察機其他四型都是攻擊機那假如要用預算比例這個目前就是說它的單價不同FPP大概10萬塊以下可是一架偵察機可能就要好幾百萬以上說明好 謝謝我只是要提醒這也不是全部的國防預算它這244是應該是他們的配置在這一個前線上面的他們在看木克蘭的時候在想說最適化的配置是怎麼樣"},{"start":13730.168,"end":13755.346,"text":"那另外就是在討論一下這次在這個華沙的安全論壇那謝律生中將也有參與那裡面有一個警示說不要把無人機很多當成是未來的常態他說關鍵能是奪取空中優勢說只有先有空優那再無人機才能夠協同那想請教一下針對這一個看法是不是可以請這個將軍來"},{"start":13758.029,"end":13773.531,"text":"簡單的來跟全民分享為什麼是只有這樣子的說法委員好謝理委員剛剛提問當時在華沙論壇裡面那個General Brilove他所提的是我們要先做好"},{"start":13774.534,"end":13799.146,"text":"万全的准备那千万不要等到因为敌人永远永有永远都有一个最后决定权他要采取什么样的进攻方式那所以他用这个方式来提醒欧洲国家应该借借着二五战争还有我们台湾的这个这个经验那共同一起来跟我们一起合作我想我想这个是当时Brilliant将军他在"},{"start":13800.226,"end":13824.029,"text":"這個無人機預算的編配要或者是整個歐洲在面對相同的威脅的時候應該要有的一個態度以上 謝謝我剛剛修正一下剛才我提到244是指在無人機跟傳統軍事的配比不是指他們所有的國防預算修正一下我剛才的說法也麻煩修正在議事錄上"},{"start":13824.997,"end":13853.962,"text":"那接下來再提到最後我們最近有看到一些國外的這些媒體跟智庫他有提到關於跟烏克蘭跟台灣的類比那就是因為他們在烏克蘭戰爭到現在也三年多了那他們在類比說在導彈跟空襲的狀況之下那他的抗炸能力就是在一些我們重要的軍事堡壘或者是這個軍事基地跟空軍基地"},{"start":13854.702,"end":13882.74,"text":"那因為畢竟我們跟烏克蘭的這個土地面積是不成比例的那台灣的面積是烏克蘭的是七分之一那如果排除這些沒有人居住的地方那我們的面積就更小了所以換言之說如果中國的這個戰力跟他們的火力集中在我們的主要的軍事目標上那我們勢必就要面臨他們的飽和式的攻擊"},{"start":13883.721,"end":13902.163,"text":"那剛才提到的什麼空優等等的就是有些是操之在人就是我們必須要確保說我們的戰鬥機能夠準時或者是說現在應該是沒辦法準時就盡快快速到達但是如果沒有辦法的話那至少要保存現有戰力"},{"start":13903.052,"end":13922.339,"text":"那我們現在自身的防禦能力如果面對中共的部署的各型的這種導彈火炮甚至是攻擊型無人機我們有沒有足夠的能力來承擔這一波火的攻擊就是在各個這些空軍基地上面的這些堡壘這些機庫上面想請教一下部長目前狀況為何"},{"start":13924.332,"end":13949.541,"text":"委員好 空軍常務長跟您做個報告一般我們會做兵力分散部署那我們眾所皆知我們在東部都有這個整個洞庫的一個防禦做一個戰力的保存那我們也持續在建構我們的抗炸機庫在各基地裡面持續在推動 在建置那目前有兩個案子目前正在進行當中那這個就是以中共傳統的這個3000磅的炸彈能夠抗"},{"start":13953.642,"end":13974.449,"text":"3300磅炸彈的這個機庫為主來持續的推動建構那之前珠網行動就是他們可能是在基地周遭那預先配置這些攻擊型無人機然後攻擊型無人機然後進入機庫裡面甚至有些沒有在機庫裡面的就直接被炸毀那相關的防禦也有跟著一起升級嗎"},{"start":13976.013,"end":13991.648,"text":"我想這個是涉及到我們的這個反滲透跟反情報的一個作用因為中央的行動他應該是要到跨境到俄羅斯的境內裡面然後用短程的無人機來進行攻擊所以這個相關的我們的這些"},{"start":13992.468,"end":14013.004,"text":"可能被侵入到相關的地境內而不被查資這個可能是一個關鍵俄羅斯跟烏克蘭是整個陸地是接壤的我們這個部分當然是一個四面環島的地方所以我們重要當然是在地的 內部的這些可能進行滲透的人"},{"start":14016.767,"end":14029.313,"text":"如來進行查查來避免被這樣子在相關的這個臨近的地精類做這個特工的攻擊所以這個部分我們是應該要做好這部分的工作好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":14035.765,"end":14060.722,"text":"已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員林立軍委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答答覆本日會議到此結束結束三會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c8529daeaf533009cb96356aa020e99bb4dbaf0ce63b1deebad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:33:42 - 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謝謝主席 再次感謝廖偉祥召委那麼積極的在我們未完委員會來排審而且也安排今天的公聽會那我之前也做了提案說明我在這一屆第二個會期就提出這個專法"},{"start":26.192,"end":51.94,"text":"也非常高興到現在為止包含民進黨團也願意提出版本然後我們的行政院勞動部也終於不再踢皮球願意擔任主管機關所以我們現在看起來這個專法它的修正及推動露出了曙光不過我想也要跟大家報告最近的一個狀況"},{"start":53.24,"end":74.625,"text":"也就是說就是因為現在立法院裡面包含跨黨派都提出了相關的法案以及我們行政院終於有一個比較善意的回應可是最近在網路上開始有一些帶風向我覺得這個可能是要值得我們注意比如說我今天就看到一個粉專"},{"start":75.785,"end":82.527,"text":"那大大的這個標題說外送專法大改革運費恐65元起跳5.7萬網友震撼表態那而且呢事實上在網路上已經開始有這樣的一個帶風向的民調"},{"start":95.211,"end":114.463,"text":"他的民調的詢問的方式詢問的方式他說你認為哪一種方式保重帳外送員的基本報酬更為恰當那麼其實呢我覺得大部分的消費者都願意和我們一樣來保重帳外送員的基本報酬"},{"start":115.163,"end":133.719,"text":"的報酬保障但是比如說他就會有一個選項好問一下說沒見但是擔心成本轉嫁給消費者結果那個的他的比例是最高的因為當你問消費者的時候他一定最擔心的就是成本的轉嫁"},{"start":134.62,"end":162.863,"text":"那另外呢他这个带风向他的问题是这样子外送专法草案要求外送报酬每一单至少三分之一基本工资约65元运费有可能从65元起跳你是否愿意使用然后呢这个选项里面呢很多还是说会啊那但是呢他的选项不会会选择自取或外出用餐就是最高的好"},{"start":163.72,"end":181.436,"text":"我要講的就是說這跟我們當時大家一起在奮戰也就是兩大外送平台合併是一樣的因為外送平台大家都知道他們的資源很多而且他們有來自國外雄厚的資本"},{"start":183.257,"end":188.859,"text":"那麼也有政府跟社會遊說的能力所以今天我們這樣的一個專訪事實上在推動的過程裡面我們現在已經眼看了當我們覺得有很樂觀或有曙光的時候就有來自這樣子的一個事實上的阻力所以我在這邊我也要特別講就是說我一直希望說我們這個平台我們這個專訪"},{"start":211.167,"end":228.188,"text":"他應該是包含平台營我們外送員營我們消費者也要營但是如果少了消費者的支持他當然就會增加整個的法案推動的一個阻力所以我必須要說第一個"},{"start":228.789,"end":246.237,"text":"我譴責這種用民調帶風向試圖去阻礙我們來推動這個法案這法案其實已經我們已經爭取了非常非常久那麼事實上在地方政府台北市台南市事實上都已經有自治條例"},{"start":247.518,"end":255.584,"text":"就是說地方政府先行上路中央已經晚了很多了所以也變成地方政府上路的時候最後呢政府還有敗訴的狀況好那我們要怎麼樣能夠讓大家摸取共贏而且能夠讓我們能夠順利推動能夠正式的上岸這個就非常重要的所以呢我覺得除了我們要這個修法我們現在有很多版本我們都可以擇其最優的"},{"start":275.738,"end":287.689,"text":"另外我們也要把接單費的標準法制化包含標準計算方式發放日期等等也可以請我們的同業工會來做一個共同的擬定而且跟消費者對話"},{"start":294.034,"end":298.596,"text":"千萬不要有這種說至少至少運費65元起跳嚇唬消費者搞不好消費者就開始打電話到我們委員辦公室說不能夠犧牲消費者的權益所以我覺得這一些我們都應該在我們這次修法裡面我們要納入考量而且其實我過去在台北市議會的時候當台北市議員其實當時我有試圖去限制抽成的成數"},{"start":322.348,"end":341.163,"text":"比照比如說美國波士頓他們這裡是地方政府就是他有一個抽成上限你不可能因為在我們幾方在對談的時候外送員是最弱勢的然後外送平台你要跟外送平台真的是你跟他沒有什麼談判的籌碼"},{"start":344.29,"end":354.044,"text":"這個費率怎麼調整 消費者也沒辦法跟他對話他想要調就要調 以前就曾經發生過這樣的事情他突然把整個運費調高那時候造成我們台北市1999被打爆"},{"start":358.991,"end":366.273,"text":"被打爆然後他們依然如故所以我覺得我們在這個現在勞動部願意負起責任來非常的我們非常肯定但是我們要如何的讓這個法案在我們現在的過程裡面讓它成功的上岸我們需要更多的社會對話那我們不要忘記的"},{"start":381.957,"end":405.664,"text":"如同当时我们在反对两大平台的合并的状况之下其实大家也做了很多的努力那么同样的在这个法案里面我们会继续站在我们就一本初衷继续的推动但是呢还是要见招拆招而且把这些不合理的这种带风向的民调我们必须要揭发"},{"start":406.705,"end":411.31,"text":"用這樣的一個帶風向民調試圖去影響試圖阻礙這是我們所不樂見的以上跟大家報告謝謝感謝謝謝王宏威委員發言他剛剛真的提到一個很重要的關鍵是今天其他人沒有講到就是接下來"}]}},{"id":"17015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17015","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc130bdd2cddfd4385f5cf3502c469ff0c83051bafb051454b34e73d69f35766b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員萬美玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十一）、（十二）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-06T08:35:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T12:23:00+08:00","duration":13640,"影片長度":"03:47:20","委員發言時間":"08:35:40 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沒有的話 議事錄就確定那麼我現在先介紹今天到場的委員首先是傅坤祺委員然後羅志強委員 葉元芝委員 黃建斌委員還有王宏威委員 林倩琦委員然後以及陳培宇委員 還有吳思瑤委員"},{"start":1572.987,"end":1595.33,"text":"那麼今天應邀列席的官員在場的有考試院的副秘書長美洪吳副秘書長教育部的鄭英耀部長還有次長朱俊彰次長權敘部的施能傑部長然後人事行政總處的蘇俊榮人事長好 謝謝那其餘的其餘"},{"start":1596.434,"end":1621.966,"text":"已經沒有介紹的列席代表本席就不再逐一介紹了另外本次會議呢機關提供的資料就送請委員參閱列席名單及資料書面都會列入公報記錄那麼本次會議討論十項排定會並案審查委員賴世寶等20人拟據的公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第67條條文修正草案等12案"},{"start":1627.318,"end":1643.623,"text":"那麼議程討論事項當中的第一到第十案已經經過114年10月20日第四會期本聯席會第一次會議報告及詢答完畢決議就是另定期繼續審查所以我們今天就是繼續審查"},{"start":1648.274,"end":1674.394,"text":"那麼由於討論事項有再併入審查的新提案總共兩案那麼所以現在就尚未進行提案說明的部分進行委員就是我們會就還沒有進行提案說明的部分我們來進行那麼可以請委員提案說明那每位時間是三分鐘那麼首先先請提案委員黃建斌委員先進行提案說明時間三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":1682.676,"end":1707.232,"text":"謝謝主席 在場的各位委員還有媒體朋友 大家早安那我想自從軍公教人員年金改革之後新進的公教人員呈現血膨勢的減少那114學年度甚至發生史上最嚴重的失職荒全國中小學失職缺額1萬人那就是因為我們年金改革在導致在職的公教"},{"start":1708.092,"end":1732.667,"text":"公教人員不敢提早退休那使得公教人員的整體薪資福利遠遠低於業界年輕人也擔心未來公教福利可能又會再砍所以不願意再投身在教育界的服務我想蔡政府當年推動年改過於粗糙把公教的年資補償金一刀切而且他的所得替代率每年往下調1.5%反而讓公教人員越活越痛苦"},{"start":1734.308,"end":1760.113,"text":"這一群退休的公教人員在民國50 60 70年代政府在沒有辦法給高薪又想要招攬人才擔任公教人員的情況之下承諾給予公教人員優惠的退休金所以才願意留在學校來教導學生為了國家來培育人才但是讓執政黨為了選票拿軍公教開刀砍了他們的退休金也抹殺了這一群退休公教人員過去的辛苦"},{"start":1761.033,"end":1783.894,"text":"那為了要保障既有公立學校教職退休生活同時也吸引更多青年人才投入我們的教師工作本席提出公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條第38條及第67條修正草案是民國114年之後各年度所的替代率不再逐年降低保障公立"},{"start":1784.514,"end":1791.287,"text":"學校退休基本的生活需求那以上也希望我們各位草野各位所有的委員能夠一起來解決這個問題來支持這個提案謝謝"},{"start":1796.977,"end":1819.977,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那我們現在就先進行討論事項討論之前先請議事人員宣讀所有的提案條文那預估宣讀的時間大約是6分鐘另外為力審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出也請盡速將書面送交主席台必力印發現場進行討論那麼如果有已收到的修正動議議請一併宣讀 宣讀後即進行討論好 現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":1824.677,"end":1847.272,"text":"討論事項公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例等修正案請參閱條文對照表委員張志倫等提案第三條第一項至第三項同先行條文增訂第四項如下前項人員不包含八十四年前以退休人員及退休之前或撫恤之辦理從其原法令第九條"},{"start":1848.516,"end":1874.107,"text":"第一項至第二項同性型條文修正第三項如下第一項鎖定退撫基金定期財務精算由退撫基金管理機關就退撫基金之收支管理與運用情形每三年精算一次每次至少精算五十年其不足部分除以本條第四十條規定各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出應全數依註退撫基金外中央政府應逐年編列預算依註"},{"start":1874.807,"end":1901.083,"text":"其預算金額不得低於各級政府每年所節省之退付經費支出之二倍國民黨黨團提案第三十七條第一項至第四項同線形條文第五項默劇修正為隨在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算增訂第六項如下本條附表三有關自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後逐年下降所得替代率之部分"},{"start":1901.843,"end":1914.656,"text":"不適用之 委員賴世保等提案第37條同國民黨黨團提案委員徐宇政等提案第37條同國民黨黨團提案委員張志倫等提案第37條對照國民黨黨團提案除第5項修正為"},{"start":1918.32,"end":1945.674,"text":"本條例實行前退休生肖者應按本條例實行時之待遇標準依前四項規定重新計算每月退休所得經審定後與中央主計機關發佈之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十即依該成長率調整之第六項修正如下本條文修補表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定自一百十三年一月日起終止施用"},{"start":1946.494,"end":1973.43,"text":"其餘相同修正副表3如復建委員翁小林等18人提案第37條第1項至第5項同性情條文增訂第6項如下本條副表3有關自中華民國113年1月1日以後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之修正之副表3如復建委員黃建斌等提案第37條第1項至第2項同性情條文修正第3項"},{"start":1975.123,"end":1992.919,"text":"前項替代率之上限依退休教職預言損定之退休年資至中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低並依中華民國某年某月某日修正之附表三所列各年度替代率認定修正之附表三如附件"},{"start":1993.76,"end":2023.12,"text":"第四項同線型條文第五項刪除條文中不在兩個字之外其餘相同委員萬美玲等提案第三十七條同委員翁曉琳等十八人提案委員賴世寶等二十九人提案第三十八條第一項至第四項同線型條文第五項除了刪除條文中不在兩個字之外其餘同線型條文增訂第六項如下本條附表三有關中自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之"},{"start":2023.82,"end":2038.62,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第三十八條第一項至第四項同性情條文修正第五項本條例施行後退休生肖者應按退休生肖時之待遇標準依前四項規定計算每月退休所的經審定後"},{"start":2039.441,"end":2063.549,"text":"與中央主計機關發布之消費者無價指數累計成長率達增負百分之五十其依該成長率調整之增訂第六項如下本條文附表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定自一百十三年一月一日起終止適用委員黃建斌等提案第三十八條第一項之第二項同現行條文修正第三項前項替代率之上限依退休教職員審定之退休年資"},{"start":2064.309,"end":2083.419,"text":"至中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低並依中華民國某年某月某日修正之附表三所列各年度替代率認定第四項同現行條文第五項條文中除刪除除刪除不在兩個字之外其餘同現行條文委員賴世保等二十人提案第六十七條"},{"start":2084.915,"end":2100.477,"text":"除第一項條文中百分之五修正為百分之三每四年修正為每二年之外其餘同性型條文委員客之人等十八人提案第六十七條教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領之月付續金或遺族年金給付金額"},{"start":2101.298,"end":2122.787,"text":"於中央主計機關發布之消費者無價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十應及該依該成長率調整之但成長率為零或負數時不予調整較職員退休後所得所領月退休金或移足所領之月撫恤金或移足年金依規定調整後之給付金額低於原給付金額時不予調整"},{"start":2123.447,"end":2149.376,"text":"委員虛與證等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為正百分之二不百分之五十及每四年修正為每二年外其餘同線型條文委員黃千豪等提案第67條除第一項條文中修正為應於發布日起三個月內予以調整其調整比率由行政院會同考試院制定公司定之或隨軍公教加薪比例調整其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2150.296,"end":2173.03,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第67條刪除 委員葉元智等提案第67條除第一項募具修正為 應於發布日期三個月內依成長率予以調整或隨均公交加薪比例調整其餘同性情條文委員翁曉琳等16人提案第67條教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領制月付屈金或遺族年金其不淨額"},{"start":2174.111,"end":2196.905,"text":"與中央主計機關發佈之消費者無價指數累計增長率達成百分之三十英語調整或至少每四年英語檢討其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退伍基金準備率定之調整比率不得低於消費者無價指數累計增長率之二分之一但成長率為零或負數時不予調整請向相關執行規定與本法實行細則定之"},{"start":2198.146,"end":2216.828,"text":"委員黃憲兵等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為達正負百分之二十其餘同性情條文委員萬美玲等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為百分之二及每四年修正為每三年外其餘同性情條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":2218.872,"end":2240.777,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分修正動議兩件修正動議一第三十七條對照先行條文除第三項末增訂中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正後之附表三認定外逾未修正第三十八條"},{"start":2242.486,"end":2267.57,"text":"對照現行條文處第三項目增訂中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所的替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正之後修正後支付表認定外餘未修正第六十七條修正為教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族領之月撫恤金或遺族"},{"start":2268.291,"end":2283.909,"text":"年金及付金額與中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%及以該成長率調整之付表三修正部分請參閱書面資料提案委員黃國昌、張祺凱等人宣認動議二"},{"start":2291.155,"end":2307.109,"text":"第38條對照現行條文第38條除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率制部分補試用資提案委員翁曉琳等人宣讀完畢好謝謝那麼現在再補充介紹到場委員有張雅琳委員還有鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":2317.321,"end":2343.607,"text":"那麼我們接下來就進行大體討論因為今天是司法與教育文化委員會的共同聯席會議所以可能發言的委員人數比較多所以今天我們需要發言的委員待會請到主席台前先登記發言那麼發言時間原則上是以三分鐘為限那麼如果說有要發言的委員的話可以到前面來登記"},{"start":2344.679,"end":2362.672,"text":"那麼至於就是截止發言登記的時間我們現在定在上午10點鐘那麼截止大體討論的登記發言好那我們就現在進行大體討論來 麻煩如果說要登記大體討論的委員請先登記 謝謝嗯 是"},{"start":2379.115,"end":2381.823,"text":"你們先你們說真的假的"},{"start":2419.188,"end":2442.948,"text":"好 來 我們現在就先開始進行大體討論了那麼首先先請張雅玲委員發言時間三分鐘 謝謝在位上嗎在座位上也是可以的座位上也可以"},{"start":2455.256,"end":2478.533,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天我們在討論這個年改的時候我想今天真的是國民黨刻意造成我們的世代對立因為其實大家都非常清楚年改對於我們的年輕人特別是現在針對於如果我們要停止這個停止這個年改的這台車的話61歲以下的人也就是代表說很多我們現在還在現場工作的人"},{"start":2479.894,"end":2485.421,"text":"年輕的公務人員 公教人員都會受到影響特別是我也要再提到幾個重點"},{"start":2486.857,"end":2495.482,"text":"第一個 我們今天如果要停止之後這些錢我們還是要補這些撥補的錢從哪裡來其實就是我們這些所有人的納稅錢我們現在給勞保我們現在才撥補5,170億可是總體的人數勞工人數是1,048萬"},{"start":2510.872,"end":2529.406,"text":"我們撥補給公保的已經是5800億人數只有58萬其實差了20倍其實我們過去對於公保公教人員的照顧一直是相當足夠的特別是我們可以反映可以看到我們現在114年的退休所的平均來說公務人員大概是5萬零"},{"start":2532.508,"end":2538.593,"text":"656元退休教師大概是57,973元退休的警察大概是53,291元"},{"start":2546.007,"end":2572.224,"text":"那可是如果我們對照現在的剛出街的這個剛高考三級出任的薪水其實才五萬五千元勒勞工現在的平均薪資才四萬六千四百五十元所以相對來說其實現在公務人員的退休所得其實比我們一般年輕人剛出社會甚至比我們平均的勞工的薪資都要來得好那我實在是不了解說為什麼現在國民黨為了買票"},{"start":2575.748,"end":2581.638,"text":"卻要讓整個全體的勞工 全體的年輕人一起來背負 一起來承擔"},{"start":2584.07,"end":2610.525,"text":"我也想要再提到一個大家一直不停的在講這個所得替代率這件事情可是事實上我們現在如果來看到我們的這個實質的薪資的話公交人員的稅收薪是指他的退休時的本分的兩倍乘以年資乘以2%所以就是說他現在退休人的本分的兩倍就等於是現在現值月薪平均要高了1.19倍"},{"start":2613.146,"end":2636.778,"text":"如果是在年改前退休的有35年值即便是到118年月退所得率都還有60%這其實都已經比我們的OECD國家要來得高了那實際上呢它實際上的月退休金也都等於大概是現在現職工作者的71%如果提早到110年停止調降的話替代率增至66後其實實際上也還是有78%"},{"start":2640.86,"end":2661.788,"text":"所以其实是非常非常高的所以我是希望说我们今天呢为了所有人好因为大家都生活在这片土地上我们希望大家要好好的去思考要持续我们现在的年改我们才能够去确保我们现在的劳工不是会被剥两层皮"},{"start":2662.528,"end":2682.473,"text":"被雙層的剝削我們也才能夠去確保所有現在工作的人未來都還能夠被國家好好的照顧所以我希望今天在場的所有的委員都可以一起來支持年改的這件事情不要去刻意操作世代對立不要去創造世代不公平"},{"start":2682.793,"end":2708.205,"text":"不要持續的去剝削我們的年輕人不然再這樣下去真的是大家都沒有錢領大家的退休生活都會一頭空而且甚至是未來我們的孩子現在已經是少子化了我們的孩子未來還要繳更多的稅金我們的孩子竟然還要去幫我們補這個洞我覺得這個真的是非常非常的說不過去的一件事情"},{"start":2709.185,"end":2726.867,"text":"所以年金改革它其實是一個直學是要提供給大家一個更公平的照顧所以希望大家一起來支持年金改革同時我也想再強調最後一件事情今天所有30歲到40歲的年輕的家長"},{"start":2728.547,"end":2754.474,"text":"每天在職場打拼養家繳稅最怕的就是我們自己繳的錢沒有辦法照顧到我們自己也沒有辦法照顧我們的孩子所以堅持改革不是為了誰多誰少而是為了讓制度不會垮所以希望支持年輕改革讓年輕的家長可以好好的安心工作讓未來有個著落所以請大家一起來支持年輕改革 謝謝"},{"start":2756.69,"end":2759.889,"text":"好 謝謝張委員的發言 那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":2762.438,"end":2787.548,"text":"好謝謝 與其是發言的是希望待會馬上能得到行政機關的說明首先我還是要重申這兩天我們在省公教退府在會晤當中不斷有人提出跟勞保基金的缺口來對比那其實上保險應該是對保險勞保應該是對公教保那麼勞退對公教退府"},{"start":2788.069,"end":2814.788,"text":"那為什麼今天每次提到公教退府我們就會把勞保拿來談呢是因為公教很早時期除了公保之外就退府制度有新制跟舊制那勞退雖然也有新制跟舊制但是勞退本身由於它發展的較晚因此它目前並沒有財務上的問題可是勞保基金由於勞動人口越來越少也就是說從勞動"},{"start":2817.029,"end":2844.758,"text":"交保费退下来领给付的人越来越多而加入职场的新生劳工交保费的是相对少但因此在这样的讨论当中社会有些疑惑常常听到这样的声音公教人员说我们当时在职的时候缴的保费跟退福是很多的远比其他的职种来得高所以我们退下来之后我们领的多也是理所当然所以提到"},{"start":2846.098,"end":2873.375,"text":"教師 教育人員退休之後每個月可以領到大概5萬8 5萬7那麼公務人員也5萬勞工大概到2萬5就天花板那有人認為這個差異是來自於在職期間繳費的差異其實待會就要請我們相關部門來說明一下有沒有一個統計目前在領公退教退公教退輔的人"},{"start":2874.298,"end":2878.944,"text":"他現在領的跟他的職業生涯全個職業生涯所繳的"},{"start":2881.107,"end":2909.106,"text":"到底有一個比例沒有那我們可以再請勞動部去整事一下到底一個勞工就其職業生涯繳的保費跟他接下來在勞保退休給付老年給付這個部分他可以領到多少我想這樣的對比才能讓人家理解並不是因為公教在職人員在職時間繳的多所以他後來領的多他的比例是相稱的嗎"},{"start":2910.367,"end":2936.888,"text":"反而勞工他在在職期間繳的保費跟他退休之後領的給付這樣的一個比例跟公教退府來相較是否公教退府是民服其實的有多繳才多領呢這一點我覺得有必要讓社會大眾來做個理解還是要強調今天我們不斷的在彰顯公教退府制度"},{"start":2937.388,"end":2960.837,"text":"由於過去制度的轉移政府已經在相關的條文當中承接了有一定撥款補助的責任也履行了這樣的義務但是我們不能不斷的提高或者說現在講的是停砍年金聽起來好像很冤枉事實上是過去的所得替代率太高在年金改革的時候我們要逐步的調降"},{"start":2961.657,"end":2988.474,"text":"在調降到合乎國際一般的水準之後我想這樣的水準能足以支撐公教退休人員有尊嚴的老年生活但是也不至於說造成跟台灣現在其他職種的退休人員他們的領取的老年或退休給付的差距不會那麼的龐大我想大家都希望說台灣不分職業大家在職時有繳退下來有領那麼"},{"start":2990.755,"end":3020.275,"text":"領多領少其實呢要能夠考慮到退府基金或者是相關的這個保險他的幾戶的水庫呢他能夠永續經營但是不要把自己多領的要變成由全體納稅人來買單待會呢可以請行政部門呢就這一點呢如果有辦法的話因為這個勞保基金的相關資料或許這個考試院這邊也有做一些調查統計是不是能夠提供一下讓大家有個概念式的了解以上"},{"start":3022.677,"end":3026.639,"text":"好謝謝鍾委員那麼我們接下來請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":3036.776,"end":3053.208,"text":"对不起谢谢主席还有我们今天现场的各位委员还有各位代表我想今天其实是延续昨天有关于就是我们公教人员的一个所得替代力停砍的问题"},{"start":3055.389,"end":3075.817,"text":"我必須說我們現在我們的國家正在崩壞中為什麼呢因為維繫整個國家運作的最重要的中間的力量現在幾乎全面的出現了缺工缺人才的情形之前我們討論的很多是護理人員"},{"start":3079.378,"end":3094.964,"text":"然後我們的其實軍警校也是一樣在招募非常困難而最近討論最多的就是全國教師甚至代理教師也都非常非常的困難"},{"start":3096.084,"end":3101.007,"text":"那這個全國的教師荒實在太過嚴重有些學校在這個學期已經開學了兩個月還找不到老師那麼我知道很多的委員也都非常關心比如說民進黨的委員范雲范委員她就曾經跟我們的像全國教師工會啦全國教產工會或者是家長會也一起來召開了座談"},{"start":3124.921,"end":3130.885,"text":"那我引用全國教育產業工會理事長林碩傑理事長的說法那當然為什麼這麼缺教師他的原因非常非常的多而林理事長提到了其中就是錯誤的年改政策造成在教育的第一線的人員的流失也就是我們過去所講的教師尊師重道"},{"start":3153.061,"end":3155.584,"text":"隨著年改一次又一次的被民進黨 被執政黨政府或者民意代表一次又一次的污名化剛才民進黨委員說我們不要挑起世代對立 族群對立我們昨天就這樣說"},{"start":3172.481,"end":3192.634,"text":"但是可以看到這幾天的言論乃至於在網路上帶風向不就是一再的去挑起世代對立跟族群的對立對於我們全部不管是退休的教師他曾經為我們的教育奉獻過或者是在第一線的教育人員 教師們何其殘忍"},{"start":3196.576,"end":3199.798,"text":"第二點我要再一次的補充也就是說我們這次停侃年金它不是恢復也就是它的所得替代率原來是要到118年停止"},{"start":3211.627,"end":3226.333,"text":"那以現在在我們立法院裡面的版本有提到113年開始停止或114年停止所以它不是一個它不是一個說在"},{"start":3227.173,"end":3230.996,"text":"完全過去就是要接下來要把它完全的恢復這一點一定要讓社會大眾而且我們也一定要幫全國的這些公教人員來說明的"},{"start":3242.646,"end":3247.11,"text":"那另外大家很關心那他對於政府的財政的影響到底是什麼呢因為我昨天也講他對於政府的財政的負擔會不會加重我必須很誠實的說他確實會增加政府財政負擔但是增加多少呢這就要講清楚說明白"},{"start":3265.828,"end":3270.689,"text":"我不希望說 我一再聽到的好像我們這一次停侃年金就要讓我們的政府整個垮台了財政垮台了 破產了整個的就是好像拖垮全民的財政 是這樣嗎昨天我也問我們的權序部那這個他昨天所提供的資料是包含教育人員 公教"},{"start":3292.375,"end":3295.497,"text":"那麼我們確實它會提前出現它要更增加撥補的情形而我們這次所提出來的停侃年金權序部所提出來的財政的精算昨天他也講了也就是政府要多撥補多少錢呢一共是多撥補4460億元"},{"start":3318.908,"end":3320.549,"text":"多撥補4460億元我覺得這一點要讓全民知道而這4460億元分幾年撥補呢分20年撥補分20年撥補下來平均一年"},{"start":3336.375,"end":3341.419,"text":"223億元所以我覺得當反對者或者是執政黨的委員把這個停侃年金縮成全面拖垮財政的時候我覺得你們也可以看一看20年撥補4460億元你們覺得這是財政政府財政要垮台了那請問一下"},{"start":3362.173,"end":3381.451,"text":"短短的五年之間台電的虧損高達4500億元跟這個的窟窿是一樣的短短的五六年之間台電製造了4500億元而且還在繼續的增加中所以我覺得今天我們討論財政問題就事論事"},{"start":3385.154,"end":3406.909,"text":"就是什麼樣的事實我們面對但是不要言過其實而且也不要用這種言過其實的言論去加諸在某一個族群或某一個世代這是不可承受之重所以在這邊今天我們是延續昨天的討論我想其實條文都非常相似那我們經過一個這個大家討論之後昨天"},{"start":3415.194,"end":3437.206,"text":"民進黨的委員也同意在整個的條文主條保留送出委員會那我希望今天這個態度應該是一致的以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那麼待會因為我們今天發言人還是比較多還是請大家能夠盡量的控制時間好 那接下來請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":3441.404,"end":3457.146,"text":"我覺得我們的政府應該是對所有老師都好一點讓老師有尊嚴不管是對退職老師或是限職老師都是那今天我們討論的是要這個法案其實並沒有要恢復到之前年金改革之前的水準"},{"start":3457.907,"end":3476.808,"text":"那過去民進黨講說老師的退休的所得替代率領太多了超過他原來的本縫但現在扣了那麼多年之後呢現在其實最高就是七成我想這個七成這個數字是大家都可以接受最高七成我覺得大家可以接受那實際上這個七成呢對現職老師一樣也適用"},{"start":3479.791,"end":3501.662,"text":"換句話說現在的老師他在退休以後也是適用我們修的法律所以我是不太知道為什麼民進黨每一次都要去講說好像去修了這個退府條例就會對現職老師產生相對剝奪感實際上我問過很多現職老師他們都是支持這個修法就是支持所得地貸率的停扣"},{"start":3502.455,"end":3524.551,"text":"那更何況現在整個民進黨政府對於老師是非常這個整個環境是非常的不友善不只是在現在老師像當導師費或者是行政費或者是各方面薪資終點費要加都是加的非常的少那也引起老師感覺到極度的不尊重而且整個教師環境都不是太好"},{"start":3525.356,"end":3541.537,"text":"所以這一個條例我覺得通過之後實際上一方面是對老師尊重二方面我就不要再汙名化老師了好像民進黨老師喜歡拿說老師們你們退休領那麼多五萬多你還不夠嗎勞工才領兩萬多好像老師很貪婪沒有"},{"start":3542.398,"end":3559.837,"text":"基本上為什麼他們領的比較多一來是因為過去政府信賴保護原則跟他講說你一開始進來之後薪水少一點但是之後的保障比較多他這個叫做地延年金他是本來就政府答應給他的不是說他貪婪第二"},{"start":3560.987,"end":3587.499,"text":"那是因為他在職的時候繳的就是比較多嘛你以那個那個薪點最高的那一級來講的話他一個月要繳七千多塊那你說勞保大概一個月最高是兩千多塊所以你說為什麼你五萬多勞保只有兩萬多他在在職的時候繳錢不一樣然後還有我昨天看到民進黨還把國民年金拿來講說國民年金才四千塊國民年金那叫非勞動年金"},{"start":3588.539,"end":3605.086,"text":"公教年金叫勞動年金居然這兩個也可以拿來比其實這就是想要去製造一個那種對立嘛好像職業對立但說實在像勞保勞保現在如果政府不撥補的話2031年的破產那現在政府的講法是如果我們停扣"},{"start":3605.726,"end":3620.554,"text":"停扣退休老師所得替代率的話要到2042年破產但勞保其實2031年就要破產那之後怎麼辦呢政府也是持續撥補那請問一下政府去撥補勞保公教會不會不爽不會啊公教人員會認為說"},{"start":3621.835,"end":3639.24,"text":"因為如果在國家財政允許情況之下勞工的權益得以保障公教也樂觀其成那為什麼現在公教他2012年要破產我們希望政府用撥補的方式更何況他們的僱主還是政府我們希望用撥補方式的時候民進黨說勞工會不爽勞工真的會不爽嗎"},{"start":3640.04,"end":3657.412,"text":"有必要製造退職老師跟現職老師對立或勞工跟老師的對立嗎我覺得這都是不必要的啦所以希望大家回歸就事論事這件事情該怎麼就怎麼做停扣所得替代率讓他停在最高七成我覺得是非常合理的好 謝謝葉委員那接下來請吳世耀委員發言"},{"start":3665.663,"end":3688.857,"text":"好謝謝主席今天我們延續昨天的討論但今天是聚焦教育人員所以有教育文化委員會的委員一起來參與討論那我過去也是長期教育文化委員會的成員像智恩我們都是長期的夥伴也非常希望說司法法制委員會這一次定下的一人三分鐘的這種惡習不要傳染到其他委員會我們真的是充分討論"},{"start":3690.103,"end":3708.005,"text":"那我要说昨天一整天的讨论我们其实可以浓缩出来在野党的委员提案其实反映出几个思维上的很大的差异作为负责任的执政者我们需要打造的退休制度是退休金人人都领得到"},{"start":3708.906,"end":3737.725,"text":"退休金能夠照顧更多人年金的這個破基金能夠維持的更久這就是三大目標退休金人人領得到退休金可以照顧更多人不限行業都盡可能橫平以及我們的基金不要再有缺口能夠維持的更久我想這是負責任的政府不論誰執政都要去承擔的責任跟義務"},{"start":3738.986,"end":3760.761,"text":"但昨天討論下來發現大家在思考上很大的奇異就是退休金的制度到底是for what退休金的設置的制度是要維持基本生活所需所以當時在年改的時候我們拉出了一個最低保障金額38130這是衡酌於現在主計總處的生活"},{"start":3766.025,"end":3790.206,"text":"需求的經費還有各縣市的生活維持的各項指標算出來我們拉出了一個合宜的最低保障金額38130我們認為這是足以來承擔負荷基本生活所需所以退休金的制度不是要讓大家去像昨天委員說是要繳房貸我想這個是社會是難以接受的"},{"start":3790.727,"end":3797.544,"text":"這是第一個大的歧義維持基本生活應當才是退休金制度的一個設置的緣由"},{"start":3798.544,"end":3826.879,"text":"第二个绝对不要拿牺牲限职老师们的权益来换得我们退休年金停侃的这个目标也就是不要重退职轻限职我非常同意老师非常的辛苦这几年来我们在制度上想方设法增加对于限职老师不管是国教乃至于高教还有我们特别关心的特教"},{"start":3827.459,"end":3840.06,"text":"還有代理教師我稍後有時間針對這些我們這幾年精進的作為我希望有時間可以來分享但是絕對不是用昨天委員一直在說公務人員已經不是鐵飯碗了"},{"start":3841.772,"end":3857.278,"text":"那也是來自於我們現在新興時代的改變過去沒有YouTuber過去沒有Freelancer過去大家認為能夠享有一個公務人員的工作保障它確實是那個時代大家的很大的期盼"},{"start":3858.078,"end":3884.39,"text":"但是現在我們如果要補充人力除了我剛說的提升對於限職老師的各項照顧我希望稍後有機會可以論述之外我們切莫不要讓鐵飯碗成為破飯碗也就是未來退休金如果領不到了那就是重退職輕限職剛剛原汁委員說到說這個所得替代率平均七成"},{"start":3885.291,"end":3896.065,"text":"對於現職的人員以後也適用沒有錯但差別在哪裡年金破產了以後他們未來退休的時候領不到這是最大的差別"},{"start":3897.105,"end":3915.506,"text":"最後一點,我再用短短的30秒,黃宏威委員昨天一個很大的謬誤,大家很難以接受,就是國家都能扛,國家財政好,國家扛得起,4460億只是提早4年破產,又不是提早40年。"},{"start":3917.3,"end":3933.97,"text":"財政紀律是什麼請各位委員要謹記在心預算的撥用絕對不是挖東牆補西牆絕對不是拿國房可以來補退休金也不是拿台電的預算來補退休金任何預算的編列有它的項目"},{"start":3934.93,"end":3951.547,"text":"所以不是可以这么简单的说国家有钱4000多亿算什么这就是完全没有财政纪律的概念我们希望透过缓降所得替代率延缓基金的破口延缓基金的破产"},{"start":3952.588,"end":3972.657,"text":"這才能達到我剛說的不論誰執政退休金人人領得到不論誰執政我們要擴大照顧更多行業盡可能橫貧的退休生活不論誰執政我們要讓年金的基金能夠永續好 第一輪的發言到此 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我現在再補充介紹到場的委員有莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":3979.144,"end":4001.619,"text":"王逸傳委員還有沈發慧委員剛剛那個柯建銘柯總召委員他有到場驚鴻一瞥然後他又離開了這個我本來還想親自跟他問候好然後另外還有我們國民黨的柯貞恩委員外美林委員還有謝龍介委員然後以及張琦凱委員好謝謝那接下來我們就請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":4003.015,"end":4020.11,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要再次強調其實上一次在翁曉琳委員開的公聽會裡面現場就有代理教師他的發言講得非常的清楚現場其實不是教師荒我再次強調現場不是教師荒而是代理教師荒"},{"start":4021.191,"end":4044.109,"text":"請各位委員要發言的時候請把正式教師跟代理教師搞清楚我手上的數字非常的負責任是當大家在談教師荒的時候我們非常負責任的跟國教署調了相關的數字我要拜託各位委員一直在講教師荒的時候記得以下的數字以113年國小正式教師的開缺"},{"start":4045.65,"end":4059.822,"text":"新北市大家覺得新北跟台北好像生活成本比較高比較沒有人要來考嗎錯新北市113年國小的報考人數是5364人而當時新北市只有開缺751人最後錄取647人而台北市的國小都報名有3603人只錄取461人最後正式錄取278人"},{"start":4072.953,"end":4097.125,"text":"請問這個考試的比例請委員們拿起計算機按一按就非常清楚這是國小的部分請問這叫教師荒嗎這麼多人要考報考率這麼高但是錄取率這麼低所以我再次強調沒有正式教師荒只有代理教師的問題再來國中的部分一樣我用新北跟台北做比較新北的部分光是113年度的新北國中報考人數是2839"},{"start":4099.766,"end":4106.551,"text":"當時正式開缺就只有錄取189到了台北市更多人要報名3392最後錄取131這是國中的部分到了高中113年新北市報名人數4356錄取106"},{"start":4116.857,"end":4135.179,"text":"台北市更誇張10398人報名最後錄取156你告訴我這有什麼教師荒現場的困境是代理教師的困境而代理教師他們領的是勞保甚至還不是我們今天討論的這些事情而更荒謬的是這些辛苦的代理教師"},{"start":4136.26,"end":4159.774,"text":"他們現在領的勞保跟之後的勞退還要繼續納稅Support今天在野黨委員想要調整的五萬多塊你們剛說領七千多繳七千多領五萬多這一群老師請問這樣真的公平嗎對於現場老師真的公平嗎剛業員之委員或者是一開始在提案討論說明的時候一下講完就跑掉的"},{"start":4160.334,"end":4188.513,"text":"委員們都一直說教師荒教師荒請感到是代理教師的困境而不是正式的教師荒所以教師荒不荒你們自己心裡非常清楚而現場的老師跟相關的報考人數入取人數跟這個年金改革之間的關係我想大家看得很清楚一點關係都沒有請不要再把相關議題綁在一起講另外我要拜託主席我們真的希望等一下還有第二輪大體討論的時間我們不希望被終止發言終止討論謝謝"},{"start":4194.7,"end":4199.626,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席還有在場的委員"},{"start":4201.089,"end":4221.027,"text":"今天討論這個議題其實誰都不想當壞人但問題是我們還是話還是要講清楚到底你年金改革你最主要的一個目的是要幹什麼因為大家都很清楚不管是誰在執政的時候大家面臨到整個年金的制度到底最後會不會破產"},{"start":4222.188,"end":4249.506,"text":"每一個政黨在執政的時候他都擔心但是剛我們在立法院裡面討論問題還是要針對核心話還是不能亂講我很少去點名說誰講的話怎麼樣但是有一些太過荒謬還是要去指出來了你像譬如說剛岳炎之委員提到說那個退伏的給予是那個遞延工資這個就實在是違背了一個立法委員的一個基本的一個素養"},{"start":4252.168,"end":4272.316,"text":"的解釋其實都可以拿出來好好的看一看你既然要引用信賴保護原則的話你就把全文把它看完在道好官四字七百八十三號裡面講得非常清楚退伍給予並不是遞延工資的一個給付然後我們看到這一次全序部也提出了這三篇的一個報告"},{"start":4273.456,"end":4288.931,"text":"昨天我也呼籲大家再好好再去看一下2018年在年金改革的時候我們大家都希望說建立一個永續跟公平合理的一個退休的一個制度目的其實只有一個確保年金不會那麼快就去破產掉"},{"start":4289.531,"end":4316.791,"text":"那大家現在討論的好像意思就是說反正都是會破產現在多給一點又怎麼樣似乎是抱著這樣的一個心態那以這一次停止調降所的替代率跟調整CPI的一個幅度來看的話你說這個制度要讓它長久的一個活下去但是災黨朋友提出這樣的一些主張你說逐年去調降還有將CPI的調整的幅度增幅5%改為增幅3%"},{"start":4319.307,"end":4343.484,"text":"當然看起來對這些已經退休的人來看的話他會認為說這是一種照顧但實際上如果提早來破產讓制度去倒退的話那我相信這個是大家都不樂於見到的一件事情因為看起來就把它給增加上去可是問題是導致的結果是什麼是加速這個一個破產改革如果說你要再去開倒車的話我看連下一代連車你都沒得做了"},{"start":4349.188,"end":4369.014,"text":"退休的族群要不要去照顧每一個族群都應該去照顧但是用掏空未來的方式去照顧的話這個關心到老的可是害到明天的年輕的那似乎讓他陷入領不到這樣的一個風險這個大家還是好好去考慮了國家的錢就是大家的錢"},{"start":4370.083,"end":4389.113,"text":"你說基金裡面每一個基金是不一樣大家好像是拿出來說拿年輕人 拿勞工 拿農民來做比較會產生對立不是這樣講你任何一個基金裡面是一個專屬的一個水庫專屬的一個水庫別人領得多如果你領自己的領得多"},{"start":4389.753,"end":4410.096,"text":"那不是領到我家的那有什麼關係你就盡量去領啊可是當你領到你自己的去增加那另外別人的錢還要拿進來貼的時候這個可能大家就變成必須要去考慮了那你2018改革到現在你政府挹注的是1321億那持續去履行這個最後支付的保障的一個責任"},{"start":4411.457,"end":4435.786,"text":"政府當然你必須要有他的一個責任但是讓基金變成一個無底洞來看的話你把它想想看提早領走了以後你基金哪怕你現在投資的效率多高那個投資的本金下降收益變少你財務只是會變得更惡化更快換句話來講你說少數的好一點的話"},{"start":4440.868,"end":4450.35,"text":"少數的好一點的話那你對於其他多數的人還有後面的人來講的話那個其實這個後果產生的衝擊大家要好好考慮啦 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員你可以繼續講嗎不行不行我剛剛在喝一口水不好意思好 謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":4466.598,"end":4494.599,"text":"好 謝謝主席這兩天我們討論的都是提案的委員都是特別點名特定的職業別跟特定的世代特定的職業別跟特定的世代然後提了這個職業別跟世代之後說因為要追求職業別的公平要追求世代的公平"},{"start":4499.011,"end":4524.99,"text":"怎麼會去提一個為了特定的職業別裡頭的特定的世代大家如果要討論這個老師那他要討論的是現有老師的待遇要不要一起調啊怎麼會去只來討論退休的老師要調這不就特定的世代在處理嗎送阿伯就是特定的選票啊"},{"start":4526.513,"end":4548.661,"text":"特定的選票啊這樣說到人意道德說現在的老師怎樣怎樣要做老師怎樣你就怕現在的老師的薪水啊現在的老師的薪水比較高的啊怎麼去討論說退休的老師的薪水比較高的這都是很奇怪的邏輯第二個 特定的職業"},{"start":4550.306,"end":4558.088,"text":"這一個退休的這個水庫 裡面的錢錢沒夠 要求全民就會來賭 這樣也不會通啊 這樣也不會通啊啊 勞工的什麼要補 農民的什麼要補你說 啊我如果再說 勞工再農民去 他還在挑起職業別啊挑起職業別就是你們提案的人啊"},{"start":4573.766,"end":4598.227,"text":"你們提倡的人要挑起職業別啊要挑起世代啊挑起限職的人員跟退休人員大家戴著水口裡面說今天你把水澆到多了泵到多水了我們以後在水口裡面沒水啊啊沒水沒水你們限職的再給我滾水下去啊啊如果還沒有啊不然在別人的水口淹水進來啊叫專民的水淹進來某一些職業別的水庫裡頭啊這樣大家都聽到啊"},{"start":4600.828,"end":4609.091,"text":"問題你們提這個就是為了選舉嘛為了你們的族群嘛提這個講到整項人力道德笑死人好 接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言剛剛吳司堯委員在提醒說啊老師的這個退府基金啊很快就會破產但是媽 老師是幾年"},{"start":4629.131,"end":4656.66,"text":"2042年勞工呢勞工是2031年我要請大家特別注意我們今天的討論是世代要共榮職業是要平等的當你在欺負或者霸凌公教人員的時候事實上你還要欺負他們的家庭跟他們一輩子的這個奉獻就剛剛我講的當你提出一個數據嚴重的扭曲明明勞工"},{"start":4658.5,"end":4671.864,"text":"是會提早在2031年破產的那你現在去強調哇 馬上公教你不處理就會破產我跟他講都不會破產不只公教不會破產勞工更不會破產今天教育部的部長在現場我要明確的期待勞動部長坐在你這位置的時候他怎麼講"},{"start":4685.976,"end":4708.401,"text":"雖然2031年就會破產了 可是他講第一個不會破產第二個他明確去爭取該有的撥補最近這三年 去年勞工撥補1300億 今年撥補1300億送到地盤的預算書明年又是1300億我請問 請問下一步部長你去年撥補了給教育人員多少錢50今年多少74"},{"start":4718.404,"end":4739.878,"text":"不要講那個粗話什麼逼給退為什麼人家勞動部說不會破產這不是狠狠打了吳思堯的一巴掌嗎哪有會破產而且該撥補的就撥補啊我請教育部要貫徹這個而且更重要的我們這個法治的社會從公務人員退休"},{"start":4741.124,"end":4765.661,"text":"之前府系條例第93條還有公務人員退休府系基金管理條例第8條第8條怎麼定這個基金如果不足額支付的時候要做什麼事情基金檢討以後第一個調整繳費的這個費率第二個更明確講由政府提款撥補公務人員府系基金條例實行細則第20條也是這樣定的"},{"start":4768.536,"end":4788.529,"text":"政府變成什麼 不負責任的渣男是不是違法不撥補明明公務人員 公交人員負了35% 政府要負責65%的你不負責 這不是違法是渣男嗎我剛才講了 勞動部都依法做了喂 憑什麼 教育部不做所以今天"},{"start":4789.52,"end":4808.792,"text":"我們希望不是像吳思瑤講的什麼重公教輕勞工我不要講說什麼現在是重勞工輕公教啦你們不要顛倒是非的同時我們同時對勞工都是該撥補就要撥補對公教也要撥補就撥補只要撥補做到了勞工不會破產公教也不會破產 謝謝好 謝謝曾委員那接下來我們請吳佩奕委員發言吳佩奕委員"},{"start":4818.656,"end":4824.419,"text":"吳佩奕委員吳佩奕委員不在那我們接下來請羅志強委員發言吳思堯拿了一把刀對著老師砍砍老師20%的肉然後跟你講說我是愛你才砍你你不要誤會因為如果不砍你你有一天會死掉的我非砍你不可我為什麼說吳思堯冷血"},{"start":4849.451,"end":4875.697,"text":"拿刀砍公務員砍老師是人血拿刀砍公務員砍老師還說我是愛你的那是人血中的人血我先來猜一猜他的謊言他可能是跟你講說我如果不砍你抱歉啊2042年會破產啊你會拿不到錢啊奇怪了勞保2030年就會破產啊為什麼你就不擔心拿不到錢呢"},{"start":4877.264,"end":4902.194,"text":"因為公教人員政府是雇主依法負最終支付責任是不會破產的所以這是第一件事情就是吳士堯在騙你啊就是騙你嘛第二個我要跟大家講他就跟講說20年如果說今天停侃20年要撥補4400億我承認有財政負擔當然有啊一年200億啦"},{"start":4903.919,"end":4932.513,"text":"到現在為止光我們一般預算已經連續3年勞保是撥補1300億特別預算加進去已經撥補5000多億我再來跟大家講一個鐵證的事實民進黨努力來砍老色肉去補誰啊補綠油油嘛我講台電光講台電抱歉我在馬政府工作過馬政府執政時候留了828億的電價穩定基金給民進黨政府到現在9年之後"},{"start":4933.593,"end":4939.237,"text":"台電虧損4500億 這828億花光光 賠了4500億然後還撥補了3000億 加起來快要9000億你民進黨也沒手軟啊我們贊成勞保撥補 所以勞保撥補沒問題但是你今天民進黨 你在養綠油油的時候你沒有手軟啊你跟我講說今年一年200億 你覺得"},{"start":4959.972,"end":4985.129,"text":"我們的老師不值得 我們的公務員不值得你不配 今天國家撥補一年兩百億給你然後你告訴我說 今天台電沒關係 虧一兆都當然虧 只要綠油有賺飽飽 賺滿滿肥水流滿地 我們民進黨大發財就可以我還是要回頭說一句話今天我們這個所謂的年金的所得替代率"},{"start":4986.345,"end":4998.212,"text":"公教人員他不是沒有為我們的財政負擔付出了他已經砍到七成以下了今天只不過卑微的告訴你說夠了吧"},{"start":5007.697,"end":5036.194,"text":"停了吧血肉吸乾了你可不可以留我一個骨頭可以了吧可是今天我看到民進黨我也不知道民進黨政府到底是跟老師有什麼血海深仇跟公務員有什麼血海深仇跟軍人錦霄有什麼血海深仇只要碰到今天照顧我們今天國家資助的軍公教就開始拿出大刀愛砍就砍最後還是說一句話啦"},{"start":5037.301,"end":5064.31,"text":"今天我就講一個具體數字馬政府的時候國考人數最高是50萬人去年掉到16萬今年掉到12萬如果今天公務員也好國考也好教室也好跟過去一樣的人山人海大家都搶著去報考那你跟我講說這個待遇真的說要停砍我覺得也不合理是嗎"},{"start":5065.734,"end":5089.725,"text":"你民進黨現在掏空人才的灰犀牛 直衝台灣而來就是因為你們今天磕帶 磕扣 今天去踐踏軍公教我們國家過去這麼多的建設跟繁榮 就是軍公教挺出來的而今天你在掏空國家 掏空文官 掏空我們未來的未來這就是民進黨今天讓我覺得最冷血的地方"},{"start":5093.82,"end":5114.256,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員那接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好 主席謝謝 還有府院同仁 大家好本期在這邊今天重申我們在修正公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例沒有要推翻改革而是要讓改革回歸平衡那麼"},{"start":5116.96,"end":5146.042,"text":"我们根据具体的数据来指出来教师如果以650的级距来计算教师每个月实职需要自缴退府5857元但是劳保的缴费最高级距就是自缴金额每个月1145元单单自缴的金额教师的退府缴费也是劳保的5.1倍我们不做比较重点是这些教师"},{"start":5147.043,"end":5161.322,"text":"跟勞工都是依法繳納依法退休如今卻因為制度跟執行的錯誤要承擔國家的責任這才是對每一位國民真正的不公"},{"start":5162.677,"end":5191.006,"text":"我這邊要把這兩天大家所講的東西做一個整理我先談一下我們其實在討論的是針對這一件事情這個法條我們要怎麼去處理跟解決當然大家會拿不同的事情來比較但是呢就針對公教人員退休輔學的這一件事情呢本席一直談到的一個很重要的重點是信賴保護原則教師在過去投入他的勞動時間"},{"start":5193.483,"end":5210.499,"text":"爭取正常的退休是因為信賴政府在執行上的效度也就是說過去老師被提撥的金額是政府提撥的但是政府如果效度不夠的話現在來要求教師們"},{"start":5212.202,"end":5234.092,"text":"去減低它的這個所得替代率這個不是破壞了過去的信賴保護原則嗎今天的法案其實在過去改革的時候就要考慮到是否溯及既往怎麼溯及或者是新的制度開始會產生什麼樣子的問題但是這些在過去或許"},{"start":5235.012,"end":5254.44,"text":"太粗魯的被決定於是產生了很大的衝擊所以我們今天訴求的只是停砍只是停砍那政府已經過去片面的改變信賴保護原則的契約今天我們要談的是如何來解決這個問題"},{"start":5256.573,"end":5279.176,"text":"所以所謂的世代不公或職別不公或者是把全民拉進來負擔這個是政府如何做的問題剛才我們談到台電的撥補政府你既然決定一個虧錢的國營企業可以撥補雖然行政單位也認為我們在退府基金的這樣一個水庫我們要自己來負責"},{"start":5280.077,"end":5309.128,"text":"但是過渡的時期其實政府有很多工具可以用並沒有要把全民納稅一起來做這件事情而是在過渡的時期你如何運用政府你有權力的工具來讓這個過渡或讓未來可能發生的事情在現在我們減少衝擊到最低減低對沒有權力的人民最大的一個負面衝擊我覺得這是政府應該要做的事情不要忘了"},{"start":5309.648,"end":5330.958,"text":"這件事情始作俑者沒有做好的是政府真正應該要檢討的是政府人民相信你給予你政策執行的權利但是最後當他們信任你要退休的時候你告訴他們我們過去錯了難道我們政府不用為過去的錯誤來負責嗎好 謝謝林委員接下來我們請柯志恩委員發言"},{"start":5338.837,"end":5365.293,"text":"好 謝謝主席我今天坐在這個地方我實在是有點很感慨因為在2018的時候我們在第九屆在教文的時候我們也曾經在這個地方每一次都討論到非常的晚那時候所製造的一些分隔我覺得各方面的言辭到現在其實沒有什麼改變所以我覺得即使再多的大體討論再多的言辭的辯論其實還是一樣大家還是各自有自己的一些的想法"},{"start":5366.113,"end":5376.896,"text":"所以我必須要說真的大家就對於停砍這件事情我必須要提醒那個時候在年資25年的公教人員他其實一刀砍下來已經砍了20%然後從80變成60然後年資35年大概從95變成75都是20直接一刀砍下來然後在每年是1.5%這樣不斷的急劇下降"},{"start":5393.26,"end":5408.293,"text":"所以说呢你即使到我们现在所提出来停砍到今年不要再砍下去我说实在已经比原本的也已经是26%这是一个非常大的一个数据所以说呢这个部分来说呢大家有各不同的"},{"start":5408.373,"end":5433.343,"text":"不同的说法我们唯一最大的共识就是希望退休金大家都可以领得到只是这个水库该怎么样的分配这个水库如何不要让它破产我觉得蓝绿这一点是完全无庸置疑的至于额外再加入了一些很多的选举性的语言好像只对特定团体我觉得那个都是大可不必我今天特别提出来一个要不要停凯大家都各自有说法"},{"start":5433.723,"end":5449.01,"text":"但是一個大家我覺得可以得到一個共識的我們起碼又有點進步吧67條大家看一下在勞保條例當中的第65條之四跟國民年金第54條之一都有同樣的規定就是呢退休金額隨著物價指數成長而調整"},{"start":5452.932,"end":5471.748,"text":"老保國民都有物價指數累積到5%上下的時候就應該調升合情合理但是呢我們公教來說的話我昨天看了全系不告訴我們的理由就說因為這幾年物價指數漲得比較多非特例而且呢法規上面有說4年就要給予檢討4年給予檢討他們認為這樣就夠了那我要請問4年給予檢討等於調漲嗎"},{"start":5478.013,"end":5483.938,"text":"四年給予檢討有調漲嗎你檢討完之後呢物價已經超過了百分之五了然後呢別人不需要直接就調漲公教人員要怎麼辦你還要經過什麼你還要經過行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟狀況政府財政勞保農保國民年金直接調不用大費作章的跨院來開討論會"},{"start":5502.955,"end":5510.878,"text":"所以說請問這叫公平嗎我們只缺一個非常卑微的公平啊為什麼其他都可以直接調為什麼到公教時候就要經過這麼多討論經過討論後還告訴我四年要檢討檢討又不代表調整那你這樣在幹嘛你為什麼要多一道的關卡"},{"start":5518.701,"end":5524.186,"text":"這就是一個最簡單的一個公平的原則先不要討論別的嘛先把67條先把它搞定嘛為什麼到了公教人員為什麼到了這些人他就要多一道程序那請告訴我的公平正義到底在哪裡如果要一致的話不能夠一致嗎而且這符合大法官解釋的精神啊退福給予的價值不隨時開經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務年改前也是如此的規定啊"},{"start":5545.743,"end":5563.233,"text":"但年稿之後就表明要調然後呢 告訴我們調多少 調幾趴還要過五關 斬六將還要看政府的臉色為什麼到了公教人員就不能比照農保為什麼不講國民年金不能不做吉教勞保那這才叫做不公平嘛所以呢 大家要討論比較複雜的問題不管是砍26 29 先來解決67條吧這應該可以得到最大的共識起碼我們要跨前一步吧 對不對這是一個最卑微的要求"},{"start":5574.305,"end":5577.366,"text":"謝謝柯委員那接下來我們請謝龍介委員發言感謝主席李鴻一半年 羅總統在擔任行政議長的時候他說希望公告人員 體諒政府財政的困難所以 大家抹曬感的 就給你抬下去"},{"start":5604.079,"end":5627.409,"text":"那麼就是標示說 經濟啊 台灣的經濟不可以倒那麼這軍公告 後來軍人沒台 公告就配合了殊不知呢 這八天來每一天 執政黨都說 因為我們的執政啊 經濟大幅度的成長"},{"start":5629.807,"end":5635.732,"text":"那一年 要開公告的退休金的時候我們的總務省是一條高清液今年我們的總務省變成三條什麼倒邊說呢?所以這八年來的公告領域也會改變每天都在看經濟的成長每天都讓民進黨說台灣的經濟每天都很進步所以他們想在八年前"},{"start":5658.391,"end":5668.493,"text":"是給你騙了,還是給你拐了因為這八年也是臨來的,也是覺得政府有需要我們配合沒關係但是你說的八年的執政是一片欠欠向盈啊那麼八十趴到現在,下來四十趴到二十五趴的不定了大家都抬差不多二十趴以上了"},{"start":5689.144,"end":5691.988,"text":"強20%這樣表示說這個資金,尤其這四、五年來,我們基金的收益不斷有在改善、提高,跟過去當期收益很差,是不一樣的。"},{"start":5706.741,"end":5709.602,"text":"所以今天你不是說要來修這個法占庭,是占庭又再給人傷害,不是給它恢復到離空一半年以前,讓你大家覺得說,哇,不會輸的,老師很好談。我要說,一分錢一分錢。當然他沒有欠你錢,你就不能欠他本頓啦。"},{"start":5729.898,"end":5736.74,"text":"為什麼告訴大家無奈要嫁孩子三個月就放假嫁孩子三個月有時候就再給孩子傷害老鼠看過去 當然這個台股是真的有關係的今天台股不錯 穩定 退休的生涯他可以直接保障我相信老鼠的付出是無緣無悔的"},{"start":5761.348,"end":5781.156,"text":"所以補典有時候 這個補要怎麼補啊 要有技術啊你今天假如說本來伯伯會幫你補我相信在野黨跟接近黨的立法委員比較少真的基金會有危機啦目前是還沒有啦 我相信沒有一個立委會跟你反對"},{"start":5783.497,"end":5792.221,"text":"因為這是已經不是飛到離空一半年了要很清楚的 跟台灣鄉親講一下包括這裡的勞工 包括所有的族群 大家都一樣就用好便宜好走 不能太過大家便宜善吃好 謝謝謝委員那接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5810.724,"end":5836.35,"text":"三位還有各位委員還有我們中央各機關的代表的所長我們今天談公立學校教職員退休輔系條例今天首先第一個就是不是要回復到107年以前這只是要停 該停的要停卡"},{"start":5837.83,"end":5860.623,"text":"大家一直在比较劳工跟公务人员的部分公务人员他每个月的薪资本俸要提拨到退府基金就是政府每个月所提拨的"},{"start":5861.932,"end":5882.954,"text":"是百分之十五公務人員百分之教師也是一樣是百分之十五而勞工勞工是百分之六而且不是強制的百分之六還不是強制可以不提撥所以這兩個就差很多"},{"start":5886.147,"end":5912.567,"text":"公務員每個月退休金5萬多平均事實上真的沒有那麼多你是用最高的最高最高的去計算的所以兩個基礎提撥的比例也不同提撥的金額也不同所以這個部分去做這樣兩個做比較事實上是一個很大的問題"},{"start":5914.466,"end":5938.849,"text":"另外就是說還是要回顧到這個歷史蔡英文總統擔任總統之後她請陳建仁副總統擔任年金改革委員會的召集人這國家年金改革委員會召開了20次的會議"},{"start":5940.376,"end":5965.945,"text":"邀請了中央各機關還有專家學者來討論所以考試院行政院就以公立學校來講就是行政院在106年3月30號根據年紀改革委員會的一個共識提出了這個草案這個草案"},{"start":5967.721,"end":5994.906,"text":"這個所得替代率的相關的這些資料他要以16年他用16年來去做逐年的調降16年但是自以為很了不起的也不是專業的我們當時的段育康委員他提出了版本"},{"start":5996.021,"end":6024.221,"text":"就以形这样的版本为基础再大砍比如说本来是要16年他把它砍成11年然后那个所得替代力也大砍我们就举例子就以这个114年今年来讲也就是第七年"},{"start":6025.495,"end":6051.329,"text":"行政院版的是71.5%段宜康委員的是在大崁是68.5%差了3%是這樣的一個因為民進黨絕對多數然後大崁不是用行政院的版本不是用專業人員的版本是用"},{"start":6052.85,"end":6061.744,"text":"委员民进党立委的版本大砍之后所表决通过的所以今天我们要谈的就是"},{"start":6063.447,"end":6088.962,"text":"要停侃了不是要回到過去是停侃所以在這邊特別來跟大家做這樣的一個說明讓大家整個了解當時的一個狀況而且勞工的提撥率跟而且60%也是後來才有的勞工的部分早期沒有而現在的勞工的6%也是自驗的"},{"start":6090.763,"end":6109.594,"text":"也可以不提拨所以这两个不能这样直接去比较而公务员的部分就是以现在的公务员每个月的本俸要提拨15%以上 谢谢好 谢谢郑委员接下来请郭玉琴委员发言"},{"start":6111.257,"end":6132.284,"text":"謝謝主席還有在座的所有的立法院同事們一直聽下來我覺得這個藍牌委員一直在混淆一件事情就是明明兩件是不同的事情第一個就是保險年金跟第二層的職業年金是完全不相關的事情但是他們都混為一談"},{"start":6133.064,"end":6149.586,"text":"那講到這個保險年金其實包含這個勞保跟公保這是政府本來就應該要負最終責任的一個制度所以政府會撥補這沒有任何問題但是職業年金是各行各業自己的退休制度這性質是完全不同但是我們一直聽到"},{"start":6150.527,"end":6164.978,"text":"他們把這樣子兩件事情混為一談真的拜託不要再把勞保拿來跟退伏基金來相比那我想這一次呢就是根據公務人員的退休之前的撫恤法不管是第37條第67條"},{"start":6167.42,"end":6171.244,"text":"這乍看之下好像只是文字上的一個問題技術上的一個調整但實質上卻可能會讓我們的年金改革倒退而且會重新打開特權的大門那我必須嚴正的指出我們歷經了這麼多年的這個艱辛的過程要年改其實為了就是要保障我們的制度的永續公平的負擔就是大家公平共擔讓整個社會信任政府的一個財政這個紀律"},{"start":6195.604,"end":6206.415,"text":"雖然剛剛也有委員特別提到這個全區部的報告很清楚就是我們的如果經過這樣子的一個更改那未來政府在20年要撥補4460億其實這4460億"},{"start":6212.881,"end":6223.93,"text":"撥補就是全民要買單我們的基金也會提前大概4年會用期我想平均每一個繳稅的國民我就用112年度的繳稅人口697萬人來算這4460億"},{"start":6230.635,"end":6246.448,"text":"平均每一個國民我們要多負擔6.3萬我想這個部分如果大家沒有把它講清楚如果再繼續加下去這不是要照顧這叫拖垮所以我們真的要問大家一句你願不願意讓你繳的稅去補別人的退休金"},{"start":6250.271,"end":6266.491,"text":"你願不願意讓你繳的稅去補別人的退休金我再重複一次所以這看起來雖然只是修大門 修文字但事實上其實就是打開整個回溯調整的大門尤其是在第67條"},{"start":6268.573,"end":6294.584,"text":"任何提前的停降回溯給付都會讓這個第67條原本的年金公平最重要的防線可能會一夕潰堤安全罰完全失靈所以我在講年金制度不是誰的特權這是整個國家的社會契約我們不能一次改革今天換一條明天換一批"},{"start":6295.504,"end":6319.254,"text":"所以政府沒了裁員全民要買單我就問勞保也有不補的壓力退府如果也放水兩邊都破產到底誰要來救全民來救我再講一次你願不願意讓你多繳的錢去補別人的退休金就問這一題就好以上"},{"start":6323.956,"end":6326.042,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝"},{"start":6331.414,"end":6357.823,"text":"年金改革大家可以討論但我相信全民的共識絕對是我們都不願意我們繳的納稅錢被惡意的光電蟑螂來去上下其手我想這應該是我們全民2350萬人的共識其實坐在這邊我們一直強調的是今天討論的是停侃絕對不是恢復大家都已經講得非常清楚"},{"start":6358.223,"end":6379.424,"text":"所以如果說有任何人還刻意要混淆這樣的一個概念故意來去講說這個是扭曲這其實是非常可惡的事情再者到目前為止我們必須講每一個族群我們都非常的照顧我也自己為相關的勞工朋友為我們的軍人朋友為我們的教師朋友"},{"start":6380.625,"end":6406.296,"text":"軍警消等大家應該要照顧的都應該照顧絕對不是為特定族群來發聲我每一次在做年金改革的時候我只有八個字要講就是保障現職照顧退休但很遺憾的是如果說到現在還有執政黨委員認為是說我們再也是為特定族群講話的話那不就更證實了過去你們執政了八年九年你們從頭到尾沒有把"},{"start":6407.216,"end":6429.111,"text":"教師 警察 消防 軍人當自己人嗎如果都是台灣2350萬人一份子各行各業在這塊土地上共同生活我們要想的是每一個族群都要被照顧到每一個族群都應該要有永續跟公平的方式來對待"},{"start":6430.782,"end":6441.83,"text":"永續 我們都希望永續啊勞退的永續是怎麼做用撥補做那為什麼勞退的永續可以撥補其他的制度沒有辦法"},{"start":6442.967,"end":6464.934,"text":"公平我們當然也希望公平但剛剛聽到有在場的委員有講到現在的這個教師的一個制度其實用的一個基準是2017年那時候討論的一個標準來算出來最低的一個退休保障那我們要問2017年那個時候的物價跟現在的物價有想過已經大幅的攀升了嗎"},{"start":6465.674,"end":6471.276,"text":"2017年時候雞排一塊50元現在雞排一塊80 1002017年那時候便當一個60元現在便當一個100 120這樣的一個物價通貨膨脹不也是在民進黨主政的八年之下而造成的嗎"},{"start":6485.049,"end":6500.301,"text":"最後我必須真的很誠實的在講其實我們沒有要阻止改革改革應該要做但如果改革是走錯路或改革的初衷跟現在的現實已經背離了應該要調整就應該要檢討"},{"start":6502.918,"end":6515.389,"text":"就如同現在核電的議題我們也看到啊都還有講說核二廠核三廠已經隨時可以重啟的一個情況連能源政策省主牌都要拋離的時候我們難道不應該更理性務實的檢討嗎也因此站在這邊我們每一個人為自己的發言來負責但最重要的是"},{"start":6523.095,"end":6537.672,"text":"照顾台湾2350万人这个是不分你我共同的责任更是政府的责任政府做得到就是换人做执政谢谢好谢谢洪孟凯委员接下来请徐宇珍委员发言"},{"start":6539.598,"end":6559.766,"text":"主席 各位官員大家好我想今天我們坐在這邊主要是要來探討針對教職員的退休之前的停侃的問題我剛聽到民進黨的委員講說不要把勞保跟退福基金來相比可是一直以來把勞保跟退福基金相比的是民進黨"},{"start":6560.706,"end":6565.369,"text":"不是國民黨所以今天我們大家務實的來去回應現在的一個問題就是我們為什麼要提出停砍我們的這個退休金就是因為我們知道現在的我們的所有的一些公職人員教師人員"},{"start":6577.535,"end":6600.22,"text":"其實我曾經有一個校長告訴我說他們在年輕的時候呢因為其實教師的薪資是相對低當時政府希望大家一起共提時間等到你年長了退休了放心有政府來養你結果呢到他們真正退休之後呢結果政府告訴你說你的薪水太高我要開始主年停凱"},{"start":6600.76,"end":6621.09,"text":"一直砍砍砍砍到你完全沒有辦法生活為止那這樣完全的違反了這個信賴保護原則那所以今天提出一個立刻終止公立學校的教職員的退休所的替債率的這個持續遞減的一個機制就是希望我們這些退休的教職員能夠安享晚年展現對國家服務的這個承諾跟照顧的義務"},{"start":6626.813,"end":6643.744,"text":"所以我們可以看到因為停砍這些年來我們造成什麼樣一個問題呢就是新的老師也不願意開始執教編了因為看到現在退休的這些教職人員所受到的待遇所以我們可以看到2019年拿到教師證任教率大概70.95%但是2023年已經下滑到60.1%短短的五年間已經下降整整一成"},{"start":6651.169,"end":6676.071,"text":"因為整個教育的環境不是再被年輕人所嚮往也讓曾經為教育一生的這個教師在退休後被迫為生活煩憂所以這不僅是教師實質化的根源更是社會教職一個崩塌所以呢退休金持續遞減的一個狀況加上通膨的因素事實上已經造成退休公教的這個人員的實質所得大幅的縮水"},{"start":6676.551,"end":6697.232,"text":"所以原本被民進黨政府設定為合理的所得替代率事實上在嚴峻的通膨環境下已經不足以支應最基本的生活需求所以為國家培養下一代的老師反而在退休之後為了通膨而成為這個制度下的受害者這是國家對他們的回報嗎"},{"start":6698.493,"end":6703.056,"text":"所以呢本席在這邊也建議要將物價指數調整門檻由5%下修為正2%負2%負5%最主要就是要檢討而且主要應該是要兩年應該要予以檢討那這項條文有三個重要的意義是回應通膨的現實還有建立定期檢討的機制而且維護政府信用跟公務體系的穩定謝謝"},{"start":6727.915,"end":6752.068,"text":"好 謝謝徐宇珍委員的發言那麼我們現在大體討論的登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那麼稍後進入主條討論的時候我們就再請機關代表就個別的條文來聚焦說明那麼所以現在就大體討論到此結束那個主席我會建議一下要進入大體畢竟剛剛也討論很多沒有問題好 主條等一下就可以討論"},{"start":6752.668,"end":6768.842,"text":"但是我建議在大體結束之前因為剛剛有很多委員講的說法可能不管是藍白委員或是執政黨可能都有一些需要官員先就大體討論的時候做一個總體的回覆好不好哪些東西我覺得這樣比較好然後再進入主條這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6770.163,"end":6796.668,"text":"就讓他們針對剛剛我建議是這樣我怕等一下太多講該說明清楚就沒機會了我們就尊重吳斯堯委員的建議那就請教育部部長待會就三分鐘的發言考試院副秘書長也需要嗎那就請施部長發言三分鐘然後機關代表發言完之後我們中間就休息休息之後我們就再進入逐條"},{"start":6799.009,"end":6822.498,"text":"討論就進入我們還是休息一下好了讓大家休息十分鐘可以去上個洗手間那麼休息十分鐘之後再回來進入到主條討論好同樣的待會需要發言的主條討論需要發言的委員也可以到主席台前面先來登記發言好那我們就先請鄭部長請發言三分鐘謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":6825.339,"end":6851.872,"text":"我首先在這個利用這個機會感謝我們所有的委員對全國退休的老師的這個退休後生活的一個關心表達感謝第二個我也利用這個機會向全國所有退休的老師過去為台灣產業各項人才的一個培育所做的努力來表達感謝那我想"},{"start":6854.482,"end":6883.343,"text":"我們也看到大部分的這些退休老師其實他們也做了許多非常有益於他們退休生活的許多的安排或寄情山林或以旅遊來走讀認識各個不同文化的一個風采那偶爾也會定期跟朋友聚會歡唱當然也有"},{"start":6885.285,"end":6907.873,"text":"含淫弄孫都宜然自得那我想大部分的老師我們看到他們也因為這個我們我必須要這麼講當我們在思考怎麼樣對退休老師有更大的照顧其實這些年來政府不管哪一個政黨執政在跨部會的一個奴隸我們的全民健保"},{"start":6908.593,"end":6926.313,"text":"我們的這個長照的一個服務事實上在對這些全國人民包含我們這些退休老師的退休生活的照顧健康的照顧事實上都相當有具體的貢獻我想我們也很清楚"},{"start":6927.234,"end":6952.587,"text":"過去的一個這個退伍基金退伍的一些制度事實上是當時的一個考量我們全國人民的一個這一個餘命退休後的我們整個人民的一個這一個座命事實上跟現在因為醫療上所造成包括許多老師的一個養生他們都確實是造成了一個退休幾乎上"},{"start":6953.607,"end":6981.754,"text":"這一個產生了一些挑戰那也因為這樣我們才看到這一個年金的改革事實上是來自於剛才委員所提的這一個世代的一個互助也希望能夠永續也能夠希望能夠公平也希望能夠給新世代這些許多年輕人在許多的工作生活各方面的照顧有一個更好的一個制度所以我想"},{"start":6983.132,"end":6997.744,"text":"剛才我也這兩天我也聽了委員也提了很多譬如說我們確實以老師現在85%現在月退儘管每年在減但是以今年來講事實上這個還有85%月退月領是五萬塊以上那麼"},{"start":7003.499,"end":7022.038,"text":"有這個平均是5.8萬就是年改結束以後也有69%是0.5萬然後平均是5.3萬我簡單的來講這些東西再加上我們全民的健保跟這個長照的一些協助我相信一般的"},{"start":7022.699,"end":7036.32,"text":"老師基本上他的生活上都受到照顧但是我也不容否認我們因為有部分少數的退休老師因為退休以後特殊這個記憶所造成許多"},{"start":7037.805,"end":7057.838,"text":"生活或者健康上照顧需要有更多的我想在不管從中央到地方都有許多的一些社會輔助的這些機制我相信他們也會有一定的獲得到一個相對好的一個照顧所以我也拜託委員是不是能夠繼續基於這一個整個我們這一個"},{"start":7061.767,"end":7076.434,"text":"所有的全國國民的整個產業上的總體的考量包含國家的財政上的考量能夠予以維持目前的一個年改的辦法以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長接下來我們就請施部長發言"},{"start":7083.104,"end":7105.206,"text":"謝謝主席 各位我想全局部主管基金我們今天討論所有提案我都從基金的財務的角度來談這個問題那我跟各位解釋說我們現在面臨的問題就是基金的水庫會用光在138年是公務人員 教育人員是134年那我們任何去更動他當然都讓他提早用光那現在我要充分解釋為什麼他會用光"},{"start":7106.089,"end":7121.516,"text":"我覺得這個剛剛所討論我必須把這個事情講清楚因為這個基金已經30年了他之所以會用光簡單的道理就是一開始因為我們退府基金跟勞退是不一樣勞退叫做確定提撥制他不會破產"},{"start":7123.052,"end":7144.801,"text":"那如果退府基金是確定給複製他就有破產的可能除非大家都根據應該繳的費率去繳那一開始從基金一開始假設那時候精算報告就告訴你每個人要交15塊結果我們是從8塊開始交起一直交到大概114年我們才開始從12塊調到15塊所以這累積起來就是缺口"},{"start":7150.686,"end":7168.661,"text":"缺口意思就是說剛剛有人提到就是說自己平常的時候繳的錢當然多可是繳的錢當然多是因為你是一個水庫確定給付制你繳的多不足以因為你沒有提撥足夠的稅率 費率所以你根本不足以支付根據它算出來你每個月拿的錢"},{"start":7169.952,"end":7199.084,"text":"所以當初的選擇是這樣一個字這個選擇是當初就是不足而提撥那我們現在叫共同承擔這個不足而提撥站在部裡面討論這個財務的一個角度就是這個不足而提撥怎麼樣讓大家能夠多回攤一點年改就是在做這個事情也就是說所以我們說政府把節省的挹注款放回去然後已退休的同仁或者退休的同仁逐年讓他減少領一點"},{"start":7200.091,"end":7218.216,"text":"事實上就是在大家共同再來分攤一下以前沒有足以提撥的錢我想從白話就這樣解釋那現在如果再把它往前提早就等於是減少大家在分攤以前的責任我還是要講這個水庫138年或134年以後就沒了"},{"start":7219.176,"end":7235.154,"text":"這是另外一個大的議題我們今天所有討論都在討論前面這個議題所以站在布裡面的角度會建議大家真的這個水庫已經會用盡就不要再把它往前提我還是要講完了以後事實上以今年領的那個實質金額"},{"start":7237.617,"end":7261.232,"text":"也大概都超過五萬塊教育人員當然更高因為教育人員高的原因有他本來他那個最後那個可以領的退休金那個縫點會比較高這個是技術上的一個問題那所以我只是在講說這是一個議題那至於說如果從這個角度來講剛剛委員提到說我們可不可以用個數字去算說這樣假設你一輩子進來這個體系你工作幾年你實際上繳了多少保費"},{"start":7262.438,"end":7285.757,"text":"那根據你開始領退休金假設你可以領20年你領了多少錢這個到底超過幾倍這個事情當然每一個人的狀況不一樣但是我們有試算過我現在沒有辦法說一定是幾倍但是超過幾倍 一定有但是因為每一個人的狀況不一樣高的人可能會超過十幾倍少的人可能幾倍我只是在講說大概就是這個狀況"},{"start":7286.653,"end":7303.567,"text":"那最後呢剛剛有委員提到說因為60%是我們算118年所謂60%相當於七成如果我們現在停止在114年那就是會66%就不是60%大概就相當於78%的這個月薪我想我就就這些數字做以上補充好那麼謝謝部長的說明那因為我們待會進入調審查之後呢還有"},{"start":7315.882,"end":7334.932,"text":"機會再進行討論那待會可能也可以請部長也可以再進一步的說明到底政府這30年來總共是這個提撥補足了多少的比例好那麼看起來整個不足額的提撥是公教人員和政府或許都有不足而提撥的情況那麼政府到底不足而提撥的"},{"start":7335.643,"end":7344.773,"text":"比例有多少 待會之後主條審查的時候有機會再請部長再詳細說明好那我們現在就休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們就進入到主條討論 謝謝"},{"start":7996.653,"end":7998.586,"text":"好 請各位官員請回座"},{"start":8000.1,"end":8029.415,"text":"我們現在就繼續開會進行逐條討論那麼本席也依照立法院議事規則30條的規定與委員發言前先宣告發言時間原則上也是同大體討論一樣每位發言時間是3分鐘那麼我們逐條討論的發言登記截止時間是定在11點10分就截止發言登記所以如果說有委員要針對其他條文做發言的話"},{"start":8029.935,"end":8050.393,"text":"那麼就可以在11點10分之前來登記好的那我們就現在先開始逐條討論首先先進行第三條有委員張志倫等19人提案好那我們就先進行討論首先先請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":8052.919,"end":8072.439,"text":"今天所有的条文跟昨天的公务同仁退府条例其实都是一致的也是联动的所以我想今天大家都可以清楚讲重点就好那第三条张志伦委员的提案我昨天也已经清楚的说了他修错条文放错地方了那也造成可能会"},{"start":8073.355,"end":8091.486,"text":"把這個新舊退休的把它分野的話會造成適用的問題所以我是具體建議昨天這一條也保留了那最重要的是它修錯條文這樣子的精神如果要修是應該是放在後面討論的第37條所以這一條其實不太需要再花時間討論了謝謝"},{"start":8095.819,"end":8110.141,"text":"那張綺凱委員發言好 我們今天的討論很重要是因為剛剛有提到我們整個國家的財政變化很大以前財政非常不好所以有年金改革那最近民進黨自己都講了你最近這八年確實財政變好了"},{"start":8110.942,"end":8126.381,"text":"不只是中央預算的這個中央政府總預算的規模大幅的增加所以說的超增所以我們現在要開始要領一萬塊了嘛對不對所以既然財政已經變好就不要再砍了更重要的我們是法治的國家一切要依法"},{"start":8127.102,"end":8150.248,"text":"我們有一個成功的個案在那邊勞動部每年依法撥補我強調一個他的成功是因為勞動部已經這樣做了他依法而且每一年大概有1300億的撥補只要照這個成功的模式做公教根本沒有這個問題那現在問題出在什麼地方今天教育部長我剛剛特別提醒了當"},{"start":8151.848,"end":8178.48,"text":"勞動部一年撥補了1300億的時候113年教育部只撥了50億114年只撥了74億落差真的太大了你們應該跟勞動部學習去爭取該有的十年方案把該補的錢把它補足這個是非常非常重要的這樣就沒有所謂破產的問題我也要提醒一點事實上教育部不只撥補的不夠"},{"start":8180.407,"end":8195.92,"text":"你們的撥補最主要是針對新制的基金舊的機制到目前你們的撥補是零你看天壤之北啊明明勞動部這是一個成功的個案勞工是個成功個案勞動部到目前對舊制的是零喔所以我們今天要求的是"},{"start":8197.37,"end":8223.249,"text":"學習這個成功的模式依法來做這事情然後該撥補的就要足而這個撥補不要變成一個違法的教育部這是一個 第二個有些錯誤的這個數據要明確的趕快去更正陳培椅陳委員昨天講了一個非常離譜的一個數據公教人員昨天已經提出更正我建議你應該道歉他竟然說公教的退府基金政府已經撥補了2900多億事實上他把砍了公教退休人員的"},{"start":8226.758,"end":8240.323,"text":"養老金救命錢2700一竟然把它變成是政府的撥補基金整個公交團體都炸過了我覺得今天也利用這個機會不只把事據把它弄清楚不要再誤導而且我覺得陳佩琪陳委員你要對退休的公交人員鄭重道歉好 接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":8247.608,"end":8265.043,"text":"好 謝謝其實今天大部分的論述在昨天公務退府的時候就已經談過了那麼公務員退府的部分我們到這裡還繼續談同樣的一些誤謬包括剛剛張旗開的委員發明我再講一次目前我們在昨天討論的公務人員退休撫恤"},{"start":8266.184,"end":8285.98,"text":"之前撫恤法當中第93條第二項他說前項退伍制度之建立至退伍基金用慶年度提前之財務缺口由政府依退伍基金財務精算結果至前項退伍制度實施之日起分年編列預算撥款補助之我們簡稱撥補"},{"start":8287.701,"end":8297.107,"text":"這是定在公務人員退休之前撫恤法第93條我們在教育人員部分類似那至於說您口口聲聲說因為退撫"},{"start":8298.998,"end":8318.218,"text":"剛剛我們部長也講了公教跟勞工的退休是不一樣的公教的退休是確定幾複製承諾給你多少一定給你多少但是你在職的時候有沒有確定的如實的按照精算的結果去提繳呢 沒有但是勞工退休的部分是確定"},{"start":8319.019,"end":8333.613,"text":"提撥制也就是說雇主要幫你提的6%一毛都不會少所以目前勞退是沒有問題但是勞工保險條例由於保險是用保費來支付各種的項目"},{"start":8334.373,"end":8357.043,"text":"生育啦 傷殘啦 老年啦 死亡啦那因為勞工的情況是因為人口老化 因為少子化的結果每年投入職場加入勞保的人是逐年減少但是每年從勞保開始退休來提領這個老年給付的是越來越多因此呢 政府進行了撥補好 有沒有法源依據 唸給你聽"},{"start":8358.443,"end":8377.895,"text":"現行條文勞工保險條例第66條他說勞工保險基金之來源如左一創立時政府一次撥付之金額就這樣而已其他的就是保費和支息保險費的支納金以及基金運用的收益就是剛文張委員昨天一直講的就是操作如果有收益"},{"start":8378.735,"end":8391.751,"text":"有沒有辦法每年都是7、8%我不肯確定但是就是有收益另外69條勞工保險如有虧損在中央保險局未成立前應由中央主管機關審核撥補到目前為止是原用這69條"},{"start":8397.406,"end":8417.038,"text":"中央勞工保險局未成立前那成立後呢成立後這60條沒有規範那要說的是說政府啊他對於各項的社會保險他都努力的讓他能夠持續的運作所以基於永續的需求政府呢至於在財務調度上許可的時候"},{"start":8418.179,"end":8434.449,"text":"對勞保條例進行撥補這不是你剛剛說的這不是法定義務法律沒有規範反倒是目前我們公教退府的部分是有明擺的我們要看法律條文看是不是一樣有明擺的寫在這裡面所以一旦的不斷的跟退休同仁說現在給我們公教退府的到底那些錢"},{"start":8440.113,"end":8459.398,"text":"少領的或者說因為所得替代率下降少領的這些錢少領什麼錢少領的剛剛昨天部長講的很多都是18%政府編預算去補那個利息的差額這些是用預算去編列補利息的差額這些利息的差額因為所得替代率降低沒有領走所以政府也沒有把這個錢不編列一樣編列只是把編列的錢回歸到我們的退伏基金裡面"},{"start":8465.98,"end":8494.887,"text":"這就是所謂的用政府預算撥補的概念請詹委員回去再認真的把以前昨天部長講的錄影帶再看一遍好我想待會還有機會再討論好來我們接下來請陳佩瑜委員發言需要發言嗎好那就"},{"start":8495.745,"end":8513.415,"text":"好那我們接下來好請陳佩玉委員發言好謝謝主席我再一次強調我昨天說得非常清楚2590E是依照第40條的議注那至於撥補的部分如果委員張委員您非常堅持那個字眼的話其實在撥補的部分我昨天也有講到就是剛剛鍾嘉斌委員已經講了"},{"start":8514.215,"end":8531.525,"text":"就是公保跟勞保的部分請搞清楚它是保險那退休金的部分我們講的是退輔基金跟勞退基金其實不一樣那就算是撥補目前在實施專戶新制的缺口三年已經累積編列512億這個我昨天有講未來如果預計分十年撥補還會達到3370億你要主席他一直打擾我講話報告主席"},{"start":8539.711,"end":8545.52,"text":"所以我想今天我再次強調因為你叫我回應我就回應我回應你又要插嘴是怎樣我回應你我沒有罵你我回應你我想先還請尊重陳佩玉委員的發言"},{"start":8557.618,"end":8580.528,"text":"而且我昨天在相關法規範的部分講得很清楚是用來補足相關的部分這些的財務缺口政府一直都有在負責相關的數字我們昨天也都講得非常清楚我不知道這些那也因為昨天我們談了數字所以甚至王宏威委員昨天才會說也不過就是兩千多億不過兩千多億也不過就是提早破產所以如果這個是國民黨團跟民眾黨的"},{"start":8582.169,"end":8608.823,"text":"黨團的主張提早破產沒關係不過就是這些錢然後這些錢讓全民納稅人買單也不過就是照顧58萬人如果這是你們的主張那我們當然也只能說我們沒有辦法同意所以我們今天才坐在這裡極力的論述希望大家可以找到一個最大的共識那至於我要拜託張綺凱委員真的是不需要再針對我我昨天已經再次解釋過也說明過依照法理的部分他在"},{"start":8609.943,"end":8616.608,"text":"他在40條講挹注然後在93條講撥補那政府該做的也都做了好 以上 謝謝主席好 接下來請議員 執委員發言剛剛陳培宇委員講說哎呀 讓他破產啊但是這不過是照顧58萬人啊破產是王航蕾昨天說的王航蕾昨天說你公佈說別人打岔你也打岔別人民進黨為什麼這麼雙標啊"},{"start":8638.866,"end":8644.409,"text":"我真的很怕他認到雙標的政黨耶因為你昨天沒來講你那是說人家打斷你嘛那你為什麼要打斷我你是我的代言人嗎 引述錯誤我懶得理你 你還說上癮了眼睛瞎了"},{"start":8656.195,"end":8678.655,"text":"他講話人家打斷他就罵人家我講話他就打斷我好請各位委員不要雙標好不好我現在是針對說要尊重平常委員的發言然後議員是委員待會你再重新開始好嗎重新開始好對因為我想我們今天還是維持會議繼續不用重新開始沒關係但是希望民進黨不要插嘴好的那麻煩待會就是讓發言的委員把話講完謝謝"},{"start":8681.612,"end":8705.429,"text":"剛剛講說不過是照顧58萬人我覺得這句話聽在公務人員跟老師的耳朵裡面情何以堪啊原來對民進黨而言老師跟公務人員只是一個數字不管人數多少我覺得該做的事情就是該做不是說只有58萬人占我們台灣的人數的少數就可以犧牲他們的權益"},{"start":8706.938,"end":8726.658,"text":"這種話是對公務人員跟老師的極度不尊重坦白說啦 我覺得大家討論這個退伏啦很多老師跟公務人員大家要的不過就是一個尊重嘛這一輩子為國家付出老師在教育這個領域教育學生 做育英才結果現在對民進黨而言不過只是58萬人"},{"start":8728.854,"end":8757.351,"text":"有尊重嗎當初進到這個政府機關為國家來做事政府告訴他們薪水比較少我們這個叫遞延年金就是現在領的比較少沒有關係之後那個退休的那個所得替代率比較高OK那後來有沒有改改啦本來講說哎呀超過100%後來有沒有逐年遞減減啦所以現在最高的所得替代率只有七成嘛現在只是停止而已嘛"},{"start":8758.271,"end":8777.564,"text":"只是停止而已嘛講的好像都不堪一樣然後剛剛一直在講說如果說要停止扣這個所得替代率的話到時候破產之後現職老師會領不到退休金第一 政府為什麼會讓退職老師領不到退休金你們真的會讓他破產嗎"},{"start":8779.209,"end":8807.014,"text":"如果國家財政好的情況之下政府用撥補的方式作為一個雇主讓對老師的承諾可以兌現為什麼不做這是 你是雇主耶你們自己也講了啊這個叫確定己負制啊就是當初該怎麼樣就怎麼樣嘛那老師也做了犧牲啊那之後如果說你覺得會有可能會用完那政府用撥補的方式讓這個退休制度持續運作為什麼不行啊"},{"start":8807.794,"end":8829.648,"text":"我覺得這個是該做該做不該做的問題如果真的一直用這種方式然後去挑撥真的沒有意義然後一直講說會影響到現職老師我真的奉勸民進黨去跟現職老師做個民調因為昨天我也看了你們的民調你們去調查一下現職老師支持不支持他們支持不支持他們的退休"},{"start":8830.732,"end":8851.277,"text":"所得替代率七成 最高七成嘛還是像你們講的六成如果說限職老師也一致支持的話這就沒有所謂的限職老師跟退休老師對立的問題啦所以不要一直操作這樣的一個對立啦然後也不要去用別的職業然後來好像覺得好像別的職業有受委屈沒有"},{"start":8852.017,"end":8864.645,"text":"老保怎麼樣大家都支持公教也支持所以對於公教支持我相信全民就支持只要是該做的國家該做就要去做好 謝謝葉委員接下來請賴委員發言謝謝主席以及各位先進"},{"start":8870.117,"end":8892.37,"text":"我幾個重點 第一個我還是再次強調我們這次的修法是stop here沒有說要恢復到以前 沒有 就stop here 為什麼因為CPI一直漲 物價一直漲 國家一直很有錢為什麼要犧牲這些人呢 我們這6年半來已經砍了快3000億了"},{"start":8894.81,"end":8907.265,"text":"但是同時間勞保博股的如果包括115年度勞保博股的5000億啊這裡面就是比較嘛我是替老師講話替公務員講話各位"},{"start":8911.169,"end":8930.644,"text":"手心手背都是肉啊勞工是是台灣人中華民國的人啊公教人員也是中華民國的人為什麼伯伯是退休而且不要忘了當初年改的時候召集的是誰陳建仁陳建仁說軍公教勞一起改"},{"start":8932.072,"end":8960.267,"text":"結果公改了 教改了 軍也改了 軍改了比較少一點公教大幅改 我舉例來講國立大學教授 主席就是清大的教授啊國立大學教授砍了剩六成啊 腰斬啊國立大學教授大家臉皮很薄 不講話我們部長也是國立大學教授出來的啊你要替這些教師講話啊替國立大學的教授講話啊 砍了剩六成啊"},{"start":8961.247,"end":8990.054,"text":"砍得一塌糊塗砍得最兇的是國立大學教授老實講我自己是從國立大學教授出來我就很有感覺啊砍得太兇了那時候民進黨多數暴力通過壓過去 輾壓過去這樣子的一個結果那現在我們只是一個卑微的一個要求 訴求可以不可以stop here已經看七年了夠了enough is enough"},{"start":8991.174,"end":9015.488,"text":"砍到已經建古了我的提案裡面我就一起講 我的提案裡面是我們現在來講是什麼CPI累積到5%然後4年內要review一次我把它改成CPI5改成3 為什麼改成3這個有道理 央行的總裁不斷的說他說他心裡的CPI2%"},{"start":9017.83,"end":9039.536,"text":"我們央行總裁公開說台灣能夠容忍的CPI就是2%那我已經把它放寬到3%就要review四年review一次太慢了兩年要review一次我覺得我的修法這麼清楚我希望能夠得到我們的委員會大家的支持我們我再強調一遍"},{"start":9042.321,"end":9044.687,"text":"老保的撥補5000億我們都同意為什麼這裡砍掉了3000億"},{"start":9050.586,"end":9073.903,"text":"我們要把它拿回來 沒有啊不要再砍了 一年大概砍500億左右是500億 只剩3年而已啊就是1000多億啊 1000多億有這麼偉大嗎我們現在不是一直講我們GDP多少多少多少我們的這個創新高 今年大概GDP可以成長5%既然台灣的財務情況這麼好的情況之下"},{"start":9076.605,"end":9083.231,"text":"就撥補嘛撥補不講過官也講過啊老爸都可以撥補為什麼公教不可以撥補謝謝好 謝謝賴委員那接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝其實現在講的是在講第三條啦大家比較講的都是廢話你知道嗎你們到底是有你們到底是有真的在審嗎沒有在審嗎那其實我把它聽一聽以後啊"},{"start":9105.049,"end":9129.622,"text":"原汁你又跑去了我就準備跟他說那個觀念錯誤不要一直再錯下去啦你那個債值提薪多少你那個總額是確定的啦你捏多少那是確定的所以那個不是一個地緣工資的一個退伏的一個給予並不是地緣工資的一個給付這個大家講清楚啦你們既然要引用大法官會議的解釋就不要給看前段那第二個就是說"},{"start":9130.322,"end":9137.29,"text":"第二個就是說大家談其實談到最後都是錢的問題不是誰砍誰以國民黨朋友來講的話說我們不是要恢復到過去我們只是說這要停下來了今天在談這個今天審這個法案你們所提出來的我當然知道你們講的就是叫做照顧"},{"start":9149.384,"end":9169.037,"text":"那要照顧的話就是要來討論怎麼個照顧法基金裡面呢專屬的一個水庫裡面你說流光了以後當然就沒得領嘛那要怎麼樣讓水再進去就好幾個方法嘛好幾個方法裡面不是說都不要去管其他的改革都不用讓他破產也沒關係甚至於你講說不會破產的國家是在的是"},{"start":9177.199,"end":9190.319,"text":"國家一直把它丟錢什麼東西都不要做一直丟進來那絕對不會破產我也認為絕對不會破產可是我們要講的就是說他要讓一個基金去做永續的話本來就不是只有一個方法叫做撥補"},{"start":9191.69,"end":9206.782,"text":"你像譬如說你所得替代率的一個調降,或者說好幾個方法,剛剛跟你講出好幾樣的一個太陽,我就不想講了,昨天講到現在了。那我們一個意思就是說,也不要讓它變成一個無底洞。"},{"start":9207.422,"end":9228.008,"text":"重點在這裡而已啦那你們是認為說無底洞沒關係啦反正政府當莊家政府當然是莊家政府到最後勢必有撥補的一個責任但是不是只有撥補這一條路而已啦你領到最後你基金真的是一直那個你基金的一個投資本金你一直下降的話"},{"start":9229.048,"end":9233.47,"text":"因為你總是要去投資嘛 要去賺一點錢回來嘛你捏了之後你就沒有了 你就沒有了 你要收你的變救你的財務 你的惡化會更快 這個大家都懂啦不要說大家都不懂啦 你要的就是你想要強行通過表決到最後你也會通過 但是只是大家這個地方要講道理這個地方要講道理 不是說拿誰來類比類比有相對剝奪感怎麼樣 本來就是為類比啊"},{"start":9254.505,"end":9268.651,"text":"一定會類比啊你勞工的部分一個基金一個水庫公教又一個水庫其他人又一個水庫好那我都不是在這個水庫你現在說會說勞工啦你現在說會說公教領完啦我們都正慘了要怎麼辦"},{"start":9272.581,"end":9288.845,"text":"錢就是全民的錢嘛就這麼簡單嘛那當然大家又要去討論這樣的一個公平性的一個問題啊關心退休的人關心年紀比較老的人都對但是你說不會產生後面的人領不到嗎會啊 怎麼不會你就去撥補的話撥補就是全民的錢啊那幹嘛設計這個基金那不用設計基金啊要基金幹什麼反正就是政府就是給我就好啦政府就給我啦"},{"start":9300.458,"end":9303.099,"text":"所以我們現在討論的其實都是 跟我們昨天說的都一樣意思啦沒有人真的在討論 大家在罵來罵去 政府有沒有撥補 有啊所以剛剛你在批評陳佩玉也不對啊 政府確實有去撥補啊只是你認為說政府要再丟更多一點嘛 你的想法是這樣子嘛這個部分也不用相互攻擊嘛"},{"start":9326.571,"end":9332.576,"text":"說一句這個意思就是說你要怎麼去解釋要怎麼去解釋說是怎樣不是在這個基金的人你要拿他的錢把它錄到那裡去就這麼簡單而已啊以上啦阿拉伯你就針對條文嘛你們想幹什麼我就很清楚嘛阿不然昨天討論到現在你們哪有在煮條沒有人在煮條啊都只有我在煮條耶好不好"},{"start":9347.728,"end":9361.652,"text":"好這個我們其實昨天每一條也都有在逐條討論因為發言的委員很多好那接下來請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員不在那接下來請徐欣英委員發言不好意思好好對他在門口好張志倫委員好"},{"start":9374.605,"end":9397.537,"text":"好謝謝主席那今天我們逐條審查這個有關於這個公教人員的權益那一樣我要特別報告就是說其實今天大家我今天是理性討論不要用這個惡意攻擊或是造謠的一個方式來討論這樣的問題因為這條核心的修法重點的就是要排除84年前退休的"},{"start":9398.497,"end":9421.06,"text":"這個公立教師不受現行退輔基金的限制為什麼呢因為他們84年以前他們是屬於N級制不是撥補制的所以當時沒有退輔基金這樣的一個內容所以他們當年沒有繳基金退休金也不是從基金支出那如今基金有缺口需要他們把他們納入計算一起來砍他們的退休金所以這樣子補漏洞的方式他們認為是完全的不合理"},{"start":9421.64,"end":9447.898,"text":"我們今天為什麼會提出這樣的修法內容其實就是因為他們人數雖然比較少84年前退休的人雖然比較少可是就在修法的時候我覺得很多內容應該要充分討論雖然是少數人的權益可是我們還是要納入討論出來因為這些老師其實很多都八九十歲人數極少其實政府如果持續給付的話對財政影響不會影響非常大其實今天我也看了自由時報"},{"start":9448.919,"end":9472.742,"text":"他的一個年金改革的一個社論他也特別提到說其實當時84年前是廢除N級制84年以後才採共同提撥的儲金制所以在今天的內容裡面也寫得非常清楚然後他也特別提到說年金改革不應該是鐵板一塊民進黨當初的領導人也說年改微調是可以延逸的方向"},{"start":9473.763,"end":9501.664,"text":"所以我要拜託就是說今天大家可以理性務實的討論不要用這個抹黑造謠大家互相攻擊的方式我覺得才是今天大家討論我們這些法條的這個核心以上 謝謝好 謝謝張委員接下來請徐欣穎委員發言好 謝謝我想進入條文討論之前本席要在這裡來宣稱最重要我們年金改革最重要的基本立場"},{"start":9502.685,"end":9527.503,"text":"我們的論述絕對不是特權而是我們要強調國家的契約必須被尊重也必須履行這樣的堅定主張我要為我們社會最寶貴的一群人默默耕耘奉獻一生的公教人員發出最真切的呼聲這一群被國家毀約的公教人員他們"},{"start":9528.624,"end":9553.783,"text":"在当年他们选择投入职场的时候大家回想看看台湾经济起飞的年代这群公教人员他们的同窗好友投身商场科技业享受月薪数十万资产累积数千万上亿的果实的时候他们选择了小康淡适稳定的教职公教人员生涯"},{"start":9554.463,"end":9572.146,"text":"这是他们出于对国家还有对教育的热爱那他们也相信国家退休给付承诺所以我们要特别强调他们的贡献不容抹灭而且年金是契约它不是施舍"},{"start":9572.927,"end":9588.661,"text":"所以退休保障本來就是在選擇職場和生涯規劃的重要考量如果不信任國家基於契約會承擔的責任絕非是少數人的福利或全民的施捨所以"},{"start":9589.775,"end":9607.431,"text":"我們的改革要著眼在永續而不是清算信賴保護原則大法官說沒這個原則我們執政黨也說沒這個原則但是除非國家是大型的詐騙集團又怎麼能夠昧著良心和專業來背棄這樣的承諾"},{"start":9610.814,"end":9633.258,"text":"所以我们要呼吁请给公教人员有一个尊严的晚年我们要求的是尊严与安定也请立即停止污蔑年金改革不应朔极既往我们请保障公教人员的退休金那我们一起为世代的公道为国家的信任坚定发声谢谢"},{"start":9636.621,"end":9662.76,"text":"好那現在第三條已登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那列席機關還要發言嗎這一條應該不用了好的那我們就該條討論就到此結束我們現在就做成決議第三條決議保留好那我們接下來就進入到第九條的討論也是委員張志倫等19人提案那麼我們現在就進行主條討論"},{"start":9668.081,"end":9691.419,"text":"可能畫面 對 我先看一下先看第一位是哪一位第一位請吳思瑤委員先發言 謝謝好 經過兩天的討論我想從在野黨委員的口中都清楚的聽到他們肯定政府 民進黨執政拼經濟的成就所以稅收增加我們政府有更為優渥的裁員"},{"start":9692.539,"end":9711.693,"text":"謝謝你們肯定我們共同拼經濟有成也謝謝在野黨的委員共同肯定我們年改上路到現在七八年的時間有正向的成果而且用在投資的效益也有5%以上你們也共同肯定年改有成果所以你們才覺得改的已經夠了但是呢"},{"start":9714.298,"end":9740.678,"text":"你們無視於一個事實就是國家的錢該怎麼花怎麼用他需要看守財政紀律的原則不是國家有錢愛怎麼花就怎麼花不是國家有錢可以挖東牆補西牆我們省預算都知道哪一個項目用在什麼項目有清楚的對應所以再一次拿國防來補退府"},{"start":9741.278,"end":9761.083,"text":"或者是拿台電的錢來補退服在預算科目可以這樣挪用嗎省預算的ABC在野黨的委員你們都忘了嗎更何況你們都很輕易的說政府有錢政府負最終責任政府撥補就好了"},{"start":9762.168,"end":9778.606,"text":"政府撥補就好了代價是什麼就是預知未來就是透支下一代就是債留子孫所以說 錢不是這樣花我們是想辦法把基金的缺口"},{"start":9779.507,"end":9793.643,"text":"補漏補小而不是你們現在放任讓他缺口變大反正政府最終生一隻來抱就好代價就是預知未來透支下一代跟債留子孫回到第九條的條文"},{"start":9795.265,"end":9811.545,"text":"昨天我也說過張志倫委員的第三項增列的後半部分不只是要求政府扛更不合理的要求中央政府要扛地方政府應分擔金額的兩倍以上這就是惡中之惡"},{"start":9812.967,"end":9828.504,"text":"昨天我們在審公教人員的時候具體的數字中央跟地方來負責分擔退休金的應當提撥的部分是1比1公務人員的部分今天以教育人員的部分我跟相關部會調閱的資料"},{"start":9830.146,"end":9845.518,"text":"中央負擔的是22%地方政府負擔的是78%換言之你要從公安過去一分擔的比例負責兩成的分擔現在要20倍要中央分擔20倍"},{"start":9848.177,"end":9862.615,"text":"所以錢這樣開可以挖東牆補西牆然後可以地方也不用承擔的全部推給中央政府來撥補政府這樣完全經不起"},{"start":9863.436,"end":9884.368,"text":"你們濫用濫花金錢的龐大的惡果所以再一次呼籲這個條文也是萬萬不可它造成了另外一個不公平就是中央政府跟地方政府依法應當分擔比例的另外一個不公平而且你又造一次造成違憲的疑慮立委"},{"start":9887.33,"end":9908.702,"text":"把數字的分擔預算的支用的數字用單純修法立法的方式來凌駕行政權這完全凌駕了我們立法委員只能監督預算而不是增加支出指定支出而且是限定額度的支出或是倍數的支出這種錯誤的修法所以這一條我想昨天也討論過了真正的關鍵條文是後面的三條啦"},{"start":9914.525,"end":9943.386,"text":"所以我想民意腦團是我可以代表發言這一條就可以了好嗎那我們就是希望保留謝謝那請鍾嘉賓委員發言好不用了好那陳佩玉委員好那張志倫委員也不發言好謝謝那麼我們第九條登記發言的委員就發言完畢那列席機關代表官也不需要發言得到之後再一起好那該條討論就已經到此結束我們現在做成決議第九條就決議保留"},{"start":9944.187,"end":9968.407,"text":"那麼現在進入到第37條修正動議那麼總共有國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等29人提案委員徐宇貞等21人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員翁曉琳等18人提案委員黃建斌等16人提案委員萬美玲等16人提案委員黃國昌張啟凱等6人所提修正動議那麼我們就現在進行主條討論"},{"start":9974.289,"end":9980.656,"text":"抱歉第一位是好我們現在登記發言的順序第一位是張綺凱委員請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":9986.079,"end":10002.747,"text":"第37條 對 他們還在繼續聽好不好 對就先請第一位張委員先發言37條 台灣民眾黨提出修正動議我們立足從114年 就是今年以後不要再逐年降低了"},{"start":10003.854,"end":10023.602,"text":"不要再逐年降低 最重要的一個原因第一個因為主管機關 包括昨天的詢答也清楚主管機關是考試院 考試院的版本是從所得替代率80%每年下降1%就到70%的時候停可是呢 一黨獨大的民進黨當初大砍 它從75%開始砍"},{"start":10027.352,"end":10045.839,"text":"每一年砍了1.5%到今年為止已經砍了14%了超過主管機關當初提出來多了4%了所以基於主管機關這個標準我們呼籲不要再砍了另外台灣民眾黨非常理性務實科學我們也做了大型的民調多數的民眾也"},{"start":10047.24,"end":10052.863,"text":"認同停砍可是齊凱要強調這是台灣民眾黨的版本沒有在回售我們是針對已經被砍到刀刀劍骨只剩下66%的就已經被砍了三分之一了請不要再繼續再往下砍了不要再犧牲不要再霸凌我們的公教人員可是呢 沒有在往回售"},{"start":10068.692,"end":10083.813,"text":"另外我們今天也會等一下會提出因為這段時間的這個通膨跟CPI上漲得太快那我們沒有要推翻以前的我們現在強調的那個修正只是本來物價上漲本來累積5%就要調只是因為以前的"},{"start":10084.778,"end":10106.615,"text":"行政院跟考試院每次四年調整調整完以後都沒有達到累計這個標準所以我們等一下修法裡面有一部分是非常清楚只要是累計超過5%到底如果實際成長了多少就依照實際的這個數據來成長這樣最簡單的不用考試院也不要行政院又要做一個功課然後弄到後來又沒有實際這個反應另外我回應一下剛剛鍾嘉賓 鍾委員你剛練了一堆"},{"start":10111.699,"end":10118.483,"text":"勞保要撥補的啊那你眼睛是怎麼樣故意看不見是吧還是你對公教人員有仇視公教公教要撥補的條文有10條以上我今天早上已經練了三四條了你要不要看一下那個條文公教撥補退府基金"},{"start":10134.688,"end":10141.372,"text":"裡面的公務人員退休補給基金管理辦法第八條明確 裡面講 你有看嗎來啦 你先看 有啊公務人員退休之前補給條例第93條現在正在審的啊有在罰 上面寫什麼對啊 上面寫什麼寫要撥補對不對對啊 那你說為什麼不撥補不撥補不就是違法嗎你是眼睛故意有看沒有到還是"},{"start":10165.237,"end":10184.186,"text":"對啊 你練了一堆勞工的你也知道說公教是要撥補的依法就是要撥補 你故意看不到啊內容是不是講要撥補 唸給所有民眾聽是不是要撥補 你重提的是不是你還沒去簽名什麼第一項 有嗎 你剛剛都承認要撥補對不對"},{"start":10188.897,"end":10211.329,"text":"我們現在討論基金來基金如果不足的時候要做兩件事情政府撥補或者是調整繳費是不是有10條都做上規定結果你故意把它漏掉故意把它漏掉好 時間到了我強調請不要仇視我們的公教人員剛講50幾萬"},{"start":10218.513,"end":10240.479,"text":"那是五十幾萬辛辛苦苦一輩子貢獻給國家的公教人員五十幾萬個家庭他們家裡面不是只有公教耶他們家裡面不是有很多的勞工嗎而且你現在這樣一直砍已經砍過頭了也沒有要恢復以前只是停下來為什麼民進黨今天還一直在製造這個所謂社會對立"},{"start":10241.766,"end":10255.403,"text":"然後一直在講說勞工是成功的為什麼這個個案不能好好用勞工撥補了最近三年每一年1300億我們都贊成我們今天提的是說你明明不用破產"},{"start":10257.506,"end":10281.15,"text":"公教的退伏基金不能也不可以破產嘛對不對它不能也不會破產嘛你們為什麼要搞到破產呢依法也不能破產啊你們要違法嗎可是我們現在看到的是你勞工撥補我們贊成的同時你公教就是沒有撥補啊而且我剛剛講了你教育部長現在在這邊你們對救治的撥補是零耶這樣怎麼對得起退休的公教人員對得起他們的家庭啊好我們請沿用成功的個案依法"},{"start":10287.028,"end":10294.174,"text":"依法跟勞工一樣盡速撥補公教的這個基金不要讓它破產 謝謝好 謝謝張委員那接下來請吳思耀委員發言實在逼得我不得不拿出這一個替在野黨的委員上課"},{"start":10305.222,"end":10322.693,"text":"保险年金跟职业年金不要傻傻分不清不要叠沟倒菜兜有两层国家的制度第一层叫保险金第二层叫退休金但是蓝白的委员两者都混为一谈"},{"start":10323.613,"end":10332.099,"text":"在勞保的部分第一層的保險金國家已經預算撥補5170億用於1048萬個勞工平均政府從109年到115年透過預算來撥補給勞工勞保的是每個人49332元49000不到5萬"},{"start":10347.691,"end":10371.03,"text":"在公保的部分從88年到現在政府逐年編預算撥補5800億高於勞工但是公教同仁的人數使用這一補撥補的是58萬人所以換算出來政府對於保險金第一層的保險年金的預算撥補是平均每位公務人員100萬"},{"start":10372.611,"end":10391.866,"text":"这就是五万元劳工一人比一百万公务人员一人的比例我们不要评价我们就讲事实第二层退休金就是职业年金也是我们今天在讨论退府基金的部分我们今天在讨论的是第二层"},{"start":10393.637,"end":10415.706,"text":"勞保是勞退基金它是確定提撥制因為它是確定提撥制勞退實施了個人帳戶制之後政府是零撥補的但是在我們今天討論的昨天公務今天教育人員的退撫基金的條例的部分它是確定給複製"},{"start":10419.108,"end":10424.012,"text":"109年改革到現在政府的挹注款新制的部分挹注512億舊制挹注2590億"},{"start":10429.372,"end":10451.26,"text":"所以這是事實好 我們不要有評價但是公事不要第一層第二層搞不清楚保險金 退休金灰白青草不要滴溝倒菜兜不要傻傻分不清所以我們覺得很痛苦從昨天到今天跟你們都在不同的頻率上所以講事實我們不要給評價就講事實"},{"start":10457.6,"end":10471.556,"text":"最終回來這個條文你們緩降了所得替代率之後年金就是會加速破產基金就是會擴大缺口所以旗開委員你不要再說年金不會破產"},{"start":10472.857,"end":10481.442,"text":"或是你剛剛說是誰害年金破產就是你們啊就是你們啊就是你們國民黨跟外台民眾黨的立委拿這個案加速了基金可能的破產不能說得這麼雲淡風輕只要政府最終來撥補政府所有的錢都拿來贏所有納稅人的錢都拿來補"},{"start":10497.488,"end":10503.293,"text":"財政紀律在哪裡我說過預算不能挖東牆補西牆再次謝謝你們肯定民進黨政府拼經濟有成稅收成長讓你們都有了那個迷思政府很有錢政府無所不能但是"},{"start":10516.741,"end":10537.561,"text":"政府的无所不能要用在对的项目他有每一个预算编列的优先顺序不能排挤了其他的建设其他的社福不能排挤了其他的职业别之间的权益所以再说结论就是如果今天通过了你们的这一个"},{"start":10538.925,"end":10547.17,"text":"反年改的法案那就是預知未來那就是透支下一代那就是債留子孫"},{"start":10553.059,"end":10566.725,"text":"那個等一下 因為有登記發言的委員是到底要 剛主席宣告的是一檔一例 還是要數十人講 數十人講也沒關係啦就大家先講好 他也比一例啦你如果要講給你講也沒關係啦"},{"start":10571.417,"end":10598.604,"text":"沒關係 你要說也沒關係我這邊也尊重就是這個不同黨派委員的意見如果說大家認為因為我們很多的議題在昨天就已經討論過了那麼接下來基本上就現在37 38跟67條不然我們就之後的兩個條文裡面就每一個條文就是各一位代表好嗎每個政黨各一位代表"},{"start":10606.562,"end":10630.172,"text":"還是有不一樣因為剛才37 38的時候還是我是說沒有沒有說可能國民黨這邊要有一個了吧實在是有這個要就是就大家就一樣要不然就一邊一位吧對因為其實從早上到現在也是國民民進黨委員發言的人數也比較多"},{"start":10635.475,"end":10636.639,"text":"好就從下兩條開始好不好下兩條開始好"},{"start":10644.653,"end":10669.185,"text":"好啦 我們就基於尊重少數少數黨團少數政黨民進黨委員好 那他的意見那我們就從38條跟67條就是民進黨委員派兩位代表那國民黨跟民眾黨委員就各派一位代表好 謝謝好那就先請劉淑冰委員發言"},{"start":10670.697,"end":10686.435,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有現場的委員跟行政官員今天討論的37條是針對條例施行前的退休生效者他們每月的退休所得然後應該依照這個"},{"start":10688.897,"end":10692.68,"text":"負表三的所得替代率的上限來做計算我們本黨的主張是有下面的部分第一個最重要的是如果根據負表三的情況因為大家知道在107年的時候教職人員的所得替代率已經先砍了20%"},{"start":10709.891,"end":10736.268,"text":"搶來百分之二十之後呢都以三十五年來計算的話那三十五年計算的話呢就會發現到是我現在先說現在的這個是退休在一百零七年實施之前所以這些人事實上都比目前的人都要還要更年紀又更大他的退休的這個時間包括事實上的年齡都已經是更大可能就已經是七八十歲以上了所以他的這個需求更大那我們如果以"},{"start":10737.729,"end":10747.138,"text":"這個負表3 你來看的話呢35年的退休的那個年資的情況呢 從75呢一直降降降 降到現在是第6年"},{"start":10749.434,"end":10753.857,"text":"第六年的情況已經到達114年的之後是66%如果以25年的年資的情況它從60%算起它到現在就變成51.8%當15年的話它事實上當初是45%現在已經砍到36%那這36%的所得替代率其實跟大家也都知道在"},{"start":10774.89,"end":10784.014,"text":"公教人員的部分他是最終的一個給付制我們也知道他給付制就是他付多少就要比多少那他現在的付的部分如果我們以一個限職的人來講的話他每個月的部分要交的在退府的部分就是已經達到的是5043元的這個情況"},{"start":10797.72,"end":10799.78,"text":"這個情況就比勞退工人的勞退事實上都沒有繳勞退是零他自己繳了比工人多了5,043塊錢的這個狀況之下他甚至包括他年功保證繳的這部分加起來的話他一個月將近要繳7,000塊錢可是勞工這部分他包括這部分只要1,145包括加上勞保可是他勞退都零"},{"start":10824.545,"end":10836.876,"text":"那這個幾乎是說他就是大概有6%6比1的這樣的一個比例那這種情況之下就算說現在的一個因為剛才說的所得替代率已經降到的是15年資的"},{"start":10839.999,"end":10859.471,"text":"15年年資36%這已經都是到低於一半的這個情況那35年的年資的部分剛剛說年紀又更大所以他只到66%甚至現在的話更少所以在這種情況之下呢應該他給複製是合理的因此我們在中央市我們的條件上面還在說我們從今年開始我們並沒有回復到原狀這是我們的主張 謝謝"},{"start":10863.226,"end":10872.96,"text":"好謝謝那接下來這個案子是不是我們就可以直接好那就請張雅玲委員發言好"},{"start":10876.52,"end":10897.769,"text":"我想可能還是要再來強調一次就是說我想根據教育部估算就是修法將會至少要減少1242億元的挹注金額而且會導致我們的退伏基金提早兩到三年用慶我覺得還是要再去強調因為剛剛一直不停的蘇秉偉一直在強調這個所得替代率的問題可是實務上"},{"start":10899.81,"end":10926.725,"text":"114年我们的退休公教人员的所得再强调一次公务人员就是50656元退休教师也有57973元警察是53291元可是我们现在劳工只有平均薪资只有46450元其实相对来说我们一般的大众来说还是蛮不错的一个薪资而且我今天我觉得公教人员很辛苦老师很辛苦"},{"start":10927.245,"end":10941.723,"text":"但是當年所有的經濟奇蹟是所有台灣人不分勞工不分公教一起拼出來的所有人都應該被好好的照顧所以呢如果說我們現在要停侃我們就要停止喔"},{"start":10943.308,"end":10967.922,"text":"我們現在只要你是60歲以下的人你都會受影響而這些錢這些要撥補的錢是誰來支付的是所有我們的還在工作的人不管你今天是公交人員不管你今天是納稅人是我們所有人都要去負擔這一筆非常高額的撥補金額而且也要再去強調一點就是說我們的這個"},{"start":10973.502,"end":10987.255,"text":"現在我們的數據來看如果要維持退撫基金在原來134年不用勤的狀況之下如果停止下降所得替代率我們接下來在10年還要再增加1600億的撥補金額也就是"},{"start":10990.959,"end":11018.746,"text":"所有的人對所有的民眾都是非常不公平的一件事情我要懇請我們的國民黨跟民眾黨的委員請為我們的下一代來好好想一想請為我們所有的年輕人來好好想一想請為孩子們來想一想我認為改革如果要改革就是要持續的去推動而不是退回舊制如果停止了調降替代率就會讓我們基金提前破產"},{"start":11020.226,"end":11040.953,"text":"這個是事實我覺得大家必須要來面對事實務實的討論然後呢我們這個如果我們會讓我們的基金提前破產而且也會讓我們的財務風險去轉嫁給我們的下一代所以還是要請大家一起來務實的來面對我們的現實狀況就是這樣並沒有說這個"},{"start":11046.943,"end":11070.796,"text":"年改就是這個年改如果停止下來應該這樣講就是說如果年改停止下來這真的是所有人都要去承擔的一件事情謝謝好 謝謝那麼現在第37條的委員都已經發言完畢那列席機關代表還要發言嗎"},{"start":11071.889,"end":11081.301,"text":"好不需要好那麼就該條討論就到此結束那麼我們現在就做成決議第三十七條及附表三含修正動議一決議一併保留"},{"start":11084.229,"end":11110.579,"text":"那接下來我們就進行第38條的逐條討論那麼有委員賴世寶等29人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員黃建斌等16人提案委員黃國昌張祺凱等6人所提修正動議委員翁曉琳等3人所提修正動議那現在進行逐條討論那麼發言的委員首先先請"},{"start":11114.027,"end":11119.14,"text":"先請張祺凱委員好了好好好那就先請郭育晴委員"},{"start":11121.311,"end":11143.818,"text":"好 針對第38條我想這個現行制度已經是經過最專業的一個精算了那真的不要讓年金改革走回頭路那也不要走到這個破產的老路那我覺得這個部分真的是大家最擔心也最關心也最憂心的不應該要讓政治的這個壓力來凌駕這個專業的精算的機制"},{"start":11144.878,"end":11169.273,"text":"那第38條呢其實他的精神喔他實際是在保障這個基金的永續那不是在強調這個政治的利益啦那現在說要這個凍結調整其實就是讓這個制度回到改革之前那目前呢從113年到162年之間我們的財務缺口其實已經預計要高達6.66兆那如果政府沒有裁員請問"},{"start":11171.534,"end":11198.325,"text":"沒有財源要怎麼辦當然就全民買單啊每個人的稅可能要多繳啊這不是就很簡單的一個道理嗎我再講一次喔 這個不是不照顧而是要照顧得更長久那勞保其實也有撥補的壓力啦那如果我剛剛之前在大體討論的時候我已經講過了如果如退府也要放水勞保也有撥補的壓力 兩邊都要破產那最後到底是誰來救"},{"start":11200.356,"end":11202.469,"text":"再講一次 到底是誰來救"},{"start":11203.82,"end":11230.743,"text":"那我就再問一次這個問題你要不要讓你多繳的稅去補別人的退休金要不要如果願意大家都可以那當然沒話講可是我相信應該大部分的人都不希望讀後某個特定的族群再強調一次那這個全部報告也很清楚基金會在會提前到前四年的用完"},{"start":11231.884,"end":11245.595,"text":"我想這個未來20年我們要撥補的4460億是全民要大家一起共同來買單喔那如果剛剛沒有聽清楚的我再講一次喔我用112年度的一個繳稅的人口697萬人來"},{"start":11249.277,"end":11274.51,"text":"做這樣子的一個比例換算等於平均每一個繳稅的國民要多繳六萬三好 那再問一次你要不要讓你自己多繳的稅去幫別人負擔他的退休金啊好 以上那接下來是民進黨的委員就一併兩位一起講還是要交叉好 交叉好 那就請張綺凱委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":11278.479,"end":11304.619,"text":"根據這個政府這邊提供的這個資料明確的看到已經砍過頭了我們的退休的這個教育人員如果是服務滿35年已經被砍了三分之一了他們現在的退休所得替代只剩下66%如果你是服務只有30年只剩下60%了如果服務15年現在只剩下"},{"start":11309.002,"end":11332.04,"text":"37.5%剛講財政變好了不要再犧牲跟霸凌我們的公教人員我剛給他看是非常明確的砍了三分之以上了真的不要再砍了讓他們有尊嚴可以在最後的一個人生的這個過程裡面奉獻了國家一輩子他們現在很多人最需要應該是醫療那個支出是非常大的現在通膨又這麼嚴重物價上漲得這麼高"},{"start":11336.689,"end":11359.722,"text":"請為他們一輩子的付出給予肯定給他們有尊嚴的晚年那剛剛我們的吳石瑤不要講你吳兆瑤你吳老師你剛講說這個不是萬老師啦吳老師啦吳老師剛拿那個手板你根本就是誤導民眾啊你講兩層你剛用的時間點第一層第一層的時間點根本完全就弄錯啦你講宮保挹注了"},{"start":11363.322,"end":11390.993,"text":"五千億是從什麼時候開始國民黨執政開始民國八十八年到現在為止你說你講你講對那你講你們民進黨最近的勞工的補助你講了對我要跟你講你哪邊造謠哪邊不對聽我講我跟你講請不要插嘴你剛講公保這第一層的公保已經補了五千億那是時間拉得非常長國民黨執政的八十八年開始那現在短短的幾年"},{"start":11392.165,"end":11399.427,"text":"民進黨最近這幾年補助勞工是多少5,170億欸你把時間一個長時間一個短時間現在更嚴重的對嘛我就說你忽略了那個時間點嘛你故意把一個短時間跟一個長時間放在怎麼會多時間先暫停一下我算給他聽好不好"},{"start":11421.826,"end":11433.162,"text":"妳 妳知道 妳知道勞工 勞工最近這一年一年是1300億欸妳知道妳剛剛妳們無私亞拿出來的公保是多少一年200億200比1300兩個多喔"},{"start":11435.325,"end":11463.99,"text":"差六倍簡單的數學都沒弄懂好 更嚴重的是什麼更嚴重的是更嚴重 連時間長短都弄錯了更重要的要依法行政第二層第二層來剛剛第一層的已經把它更正過了第二層更重要第二層就是要依法行政我剛才講那麼多次了中間那邊剛剛承認了嘛有十種法案裡面講的就是要依法包袱嘛我們的"},{"start":11464.73,"end":11492.387,"text":"我們的公教退補基金就是不能不會也不可以破產法律上就明定你要第一個基金不足的時候要做什麼事情調整費率最近也調了從12%調到15%更重要後面提一個政府要負責撥補那他怎麼會怎麼會破產呢更重要的因為勞保已經在那邊了勞工的撥補是一個成功的那為什麼"},{"start":11494.244,"end":11504.42,"text":"公教人員對不起你們是不是為什麼一定要叫他破產你明明可以不要叫他破產你為什麼要對不起五十幾萬人辛辛苦苦的一輩子五十幾萬人然後對不起他們的家庭咧好"},{"start":11508.663,"end":11536.882,"text":"好啦 最後我只是要強調啦我們要強調的是世代是要共榮的每個家庭裡面不是只有公教人員啦都有勞工的啦我們也做了我不知道民進黨的這個民調從哪邊來我們民眾黨做了這個大型的這個民調清清楚楚啊年輕人勞工也支持這次再停砍因為真的已經刀刀劍骨這年度太多了啦而且沒有要回溯欸不是說要回到以前是砍了三分之一以後停下來而已喔"},{"start":11538.041,"end":11554.358,"text":"請民進黨多一點社會的這個和諧讓世代是可以共融的不要在自己的這個島上撥到這個台灣來的愛我們的台灣啊你在歷史在我們的內部去製造敵人製造對立跟撕裂這是對台灣是好的嗎謝謝好 謝謝那接下來請吳思耀委員發言"},{"start":11560.847,"end":11585.083,"text":"這應該是我今天最後一次能夠發言的機會大家可以去看看今天全城大各黨的發言所謂的撕裂、仇恨、冷血、霸凌、踐踏這些詞彙今天都來自於在野黨的委員民進黨的委員今天沒有任何人用這種形容詞而且是比較負面的言詞在對待今天的討論不管是大體或是主條"},{"start":11586.244,"end":11606.913,"text":"那我也要回應江啟凱委員你們民眾黨真的是理性務實科學嗎剛剛我在你面前一個字一個字寫給你看念給你聽就是你剛剛自己打臉自己我說的就完全是一模一樣的東西啊你是耳朵有問題還是眼睛有問題我這張可以送給你看清楚回去做功課"},{"start":11608.234,"end":11630.76,"text":"民眾黨真的不要為了政治利益而背棄了一整個年輕世代你們是年輕人挺起家的政黨真的不要踐踏世代正義幾位委員在說的砍到見骨砍到見血我們都沒有人想要虧待任何在台灣生活努力怕病的國人"},{"start":11631.772,"end":11648.29,"text":"但是我們要看看以今天的來 請注意聽今天的教育人員我手上拿的是教育人員的這一本昨天是公務人員的這一本兩相比較我們可以更清楚的看到我們就以"},{"start":11649.542,"end":11661.674,"text":"最後一欄也就是在年改如果完成的118年來比較我們教育人員領的中位數的退休縫是6510065000"},{"start":11666.345,"end":11694.652,"text":"然後最高金額在118年可以領到98058九萬八千元這都遠高於昨天的公務人員還更高八九千元以上這樣子的金額一個月五萬 六萬 八萬 九萬這個是難以維持基本生活這是砍到箭鼓嗎大家好好去思考這個問題"},{"start":11696.874,"end":11714.284,"text":"真的好好去思考退休金的制度是维持基本生活所需如果七万八万以上今天我们的政部长已经清楚的说限制85%的教育人员退休奉是五万以上年改维持下去如果持续进行"},{"start":11715.405,"end":11737.462,"text":"有69%的老師們退休後可以領5萬以上而月退的平均在老師是5.8萬元我們就讓數字來說話當然我們最重視的我一直說不要重退休輕限職因為我們要擴大保障對於限職老師的福利"},{"start":11738.263,"end":11756.071,"text":"所以我們要解決志強委員一直很在乎我們的人力如果教師沒有辦法補足公務人員如果流失怎麼辦所以我們這幾年來教育部在國教的部分我們想方設法在增加老師的福利待遇爭取中的"},{"start":11756.551,"end":11775.099,"text":"更有要為各個主管的職務加擠都能夠整併為兩級讓大家可以增加現行的五千八千可以取其高的那個等就是八千元一個月我們現在努力在爭取在導師費的部分我們也在努力爭取中要為每一個國教的導師可以爭取每個月多三千元這是現在進行式請在野黨的委員可以支持"},{"start":11781.141,"end":11796.901,"text":"在高校對現役老師的部分我們在107年上錄了玉山計畫彈性的調心有效的希望能夠提高教授的學術研究加幾10%這是新的制度"},{"start":11797.802,"end":11816.456,"text":"执政之后努力做的107年教授学术家籍研究家籍多10%112年我们也努力的推动了教研人员的待遇计划更是在113年上路整体的教师学术研究家籍调整了在up 15%"},{"start":11818.337,"end":11844.259,"text":"我知道這些做的可能都不夠但是我們在有限的國家資源裡頭對於國教對於高教的現職老師努力的給予他們更合理更有競爭力的一個待遇這才是國家對待照顧 疼惜 珍惜我們的現職教育人員的方法而絕不是從錯誤的地方下手"},{"start":11845.68,"end":11866.133,"text":"從提高對於已退休者的權益其實你犧牲的是現役的教育人員他們可能未來退休金領不到的這個災難跟代價所以最後一次發言我希望八年前八年前我們的國會花了一整年討論年改"},{"start":11868.311,"end":11891.713,"text":"八年後的今天我們只花了兩天加起來時間不過一天的時間就要讓改革走回頭路八年前我們花了一年討論八年後改革走回頭路我們花不到一天的時間這是這一屆立法院交出來的成績單碼我們要共同對跨世代跨行業的國人負責"},{"start":11894.414,"end":11909.588,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我們現在就是以在38條它其實很多重點都是包含它是什麼時候開始停產年金這個版本裡面有從113年開始終止試用也有從114年後再終止試用"},{"start":11921.379,"end":11933.739,"text":"所以这个也算是我们在这一次的公教年改里面一个非常精髓的法案我们最近大家讨论这么多我必须去回应也就是说"},{"start":11935.149,"end":11959.923,"text":"剛才比如吳士耀委員說今天所有什麼霸凌什麼就是這些字眼通通都是我們民進黨的委員都沒有談到他都忘記昨天了昨天是怎麼樣去談論的其實我一開始開宗明義其實我覺得今天不管你是站在正方或反方都不應該去"},{"start":11962.745,"end":11977.839,"text":"造成世代的對立也不要去造成任何一個族群一個世代歸罪於他因為當時去做年金改革也是在於整個的政府財政結果政府違背了對廣大的"},{"start":11979.62,"end":11983.263,"text":"公教人員的承諾我覺得這一點就是當時是基於財政現在已經執行這麼多年下來他可能有一些要去做改變我剛才也特別講到比如說最近的教師荒我覺得這個是國安問題"},{"start":12001.435,"end":12005.637,"text":"這真的是國安問題我也說民進黨的委員也很關心那你范雲自己召開的記者會你找了很多的線上的教師團體結果全國教師產業總工會的理事長林碩傑在現場告訴你的是現在為什麼會有這樣的教師荒其中是錯誤的年改政策你們都不聽喔你們都不需要聽嗎"},{"start":12029.454,"end":12040.583,"text":"如果今天我們對於這樣的一個教師荒除了對於現階段包含薪資也好比如說終點費、教師費、行政費還有教師的尊嚴還有這些年改的問題我們要不要繼續的去執行大家在講說今天好像是什麼世代剝奪感但是不管工、教、人員總有一天他們也會退休"},{"start":12056.513,"end":12060.597,"text":"政府現在怎麼對已退休的這些公教人員未來是不是也同樣或者是更惡劣的方式對待他們他們也在看所以在這邊我們今天做的一些修正第一個現在教師荒的國安問題期待大家一起去努力的解決那我們教師團體已經指出這個問題而我們完全不去重視"},{"start":12084.477,"end":12090.66,"text":"那另外我今天就不再贅述我剛才也講了很多在昨天就是有關於財政的問題財政的問題那我們在其他的部分國營事業也好啦或者其他的這個浪費啦或者莫名其妙的這種一些的預算無限的這種支出"},{"start":12105.339,"end":12130.676,"text":"然後我們是不是也可以在我們可容忍的範圍裡面然後把它這一部分彌補起來這個是可以討論的啊但是民進黨或者是看到昨天還試圖想要拍影片要繼續的要在網路上帶風向繼續的在網路上去罵包含我發言的人或其他發言的人比如昨天吳宗憲發言王宏威發言就要帶風向"},{"start":12132.791,"end":12134.852,"text":"這個是討論事情這是解決問題的方法嗎大罷免結束了結果你們今天面對這樣重要的一個國安問題的討論然後繼續用大罷免這種想要在網路霸凌的方式我覺得適可而止了啦好 以上好 謝謝王宏偉委員的發言那現在第38條"},{"start":12158.943,"end":12174.071,"text":"登記發言的委員以及列席機關的代表都已經不好意思我再重述一遍第38條發言的委員都已經發言完畢了請問列席機關的代表還要發言嗎"},{"start":12175.922,"end":12196.488,"text":"好那就先請再三分鐘發言謝謝我想就像我謝謝有這個機會讓全區部在這兩天都有機會把我們根據精算的狀況跟大家做一個事實的說明剛好這兩條都涉及精算最後一次把一些相關的問題再說明一次我想應該第一個說明是說"},{"start":12198.069,"end":12212.572,"text":"我剛剛已經講過這整個是基金是水庫的問題它源頭都是來自不足而提撥那剛剛有提到說那政府應該要撥補啊政府如果不夠就要撥補那確實政府根據93條因為實施新制"},{"start":12213.496,"end":12227.681,"text":"的缺口也開始提撥提撥到舊的基金裡面去那差別只在於說當初算出來的總金額到底要分一次就給還是分十年給還是分二十年給"},{"start":12228.641,"end":12250.818,"text":"那站在我們的全區部跟公教團體的一個組都會期待說是不是分十年給就好了所以才有那個十年大概三千多億如果你分十年總額就三千多億但如果你分二十年就會四千多億那當然這是行政院做最後的決定他會做整體財政稿但是重點他一定要履行"},{"start":12252.096,"end":12272.207,"text":"退服法的依法撥補的這個責任我想那再回到前面那他撥的純粹是以前不足耳提撥的部分等於是把那個權數役注回給基金役注款本身在我們看來就是一個撥補為什麼因為裡面絕大部分是就是那個18%的優存那18%優存我們就把本金全部還給當事人"},{"start":12277.932,"end":12304.06,"text":"就是說我把本金還給當事人只是說我們把優存的利息存下來再次還給基金所以我們認為那也是一個撥補我想我要清楚地說明這兩個概念那如果回過頭來真的再不夠怎麼辦當然政府可以撥補但是剛剛也有委員提到那就提高匯率啊那我跟各位報告一個這是根據第九次精算的匯率我跟各位報告如果這些未提存的匯率如果真的要完全撥補"},{"start":12305.342,"end":12334.622,"text":"公務人員最高 最適費率要23.73%教育人員要36.06%這不可能嘛我的意思在講說站在我們任何一個人執政不可能會把那個費率提高那麼高因為你沒有那個費率就不可能支撐那一個給付我只要很務實的跟精算報告是這樣講所以才有想說盡量大家不要再把它提早啦我想我是很精確在這樣講因為都是這都是根據精算報告的一個方式來做跟各位報告那精算報告還提到一點"},{"start":12335.682,"end":12351.653,"text":"如果純粹就未來的服務成本未來服務成本就是說現在新進的同仁來講如果他用現在可以領的退休金來算其實他的費率只要大概教育人員 公務人員17%教育人員只要15%所以我們為什麼認為說"},{"start":12353.234,"end":12375.555,"text":"真的那個已退的同仁可以大家一起再忍一下這四年然後一起來注意那忍一下四年剛剛我們有報告月退休金本身平均都五萬塊以上我是來自大學老師我的平均月退休金一定會比五萬塊高所以剛剛我想賴委員提到說我是大學老師你問我"},{"start":12377.15,"end":12402.93,"text":"情感上我也覺得如果不扣最好可是我作為一個整個基金的財務負責人我覺得這個事情就是讓年改繼續走完其實是最好的一個方式那不要忘了我們後面年改走完還有134年以後的114年到162年如果沒有折現財務缺口真的是很可怕我想那實在是一個大的一個基金的缺口我想這應該跟"},{"start":12404.312,"end":12408.219,"text":"前面這兩條的相關 我就一次做一個說明那謝謝主席給我這個時間好 謝謝那麼現在第38條"},{"start":12417.549,"end":12436.068,"text":"這個列席機關代表已經發言完畢了我們就討論就是該條討論到此結束我們現在就做成決議那第三四八條含修正動議一修正動議二那我們決議就一併保留那麼最後就進行第六十七條的主條討論那首先先請"},{"start":12440.641,"end":12459.917,"text":"那么第67条有委员赖世保等20人提案委员柯志恩等18人提案委员徐宇峥等21人提案委员黄建豪等20人提案委员桑志伦等19人提案委员叶元之等20人提案委员翁晓琳等16人提案委员黄建斌等16人提案委员黄美玲等16人提案"},{"start":12460.586,"end":12488.111,"text":"委員黃國昌張啟凱等六人所提修正動議那麼現在就進行逐條討論那麼首先先請周嘉斌委員發言那這樣的話我們就先請劉淑斌委員劉淑斌委員那就請你先發言好謝謝主席今天的六十八條的六十七條的這個修正案那就是針對的目前在相對於在"},{"start":12489.403,"end":12509.291,"text":"老保農保跟國保當中的所造成的一個再次讓教職人員呢最大的一個不公平現象因為在老保剛才說老保農保跟國保當中呢都是出現到是他們隨著累積物就是年金呢是隨著"},{"start":12510.712,"end":12533.125,"text":"物價的累積達到了5%或者是到每4年要去做調整但是在67條的教職人員的部分它是確實加了很多的一個條件就是說還要調整比例由行政院會同考試院考量國家"},{"start":12534.946,"end":12542.491,"text":"經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率而定之這樣的一個規定就讓他說即使已經達到了跟相較於其他的剛才另外的三個寶他已經達到了5%的這個要去調整的比例可是卻是因為"},{"start":12552.897,"end":12580.999,"text":"這個前述的剛剛說的條件等等的卻是因此而就是沒有再去做調整這個對於很清楚的對於公立學校的這個教師呢教職員就是非常大的一個歧視的狀況那這個部分的歧視呢不只是在這樣的一個在年金的一個調整的一個物價提出的調整尤其是現在物價上漲又這麼高的情況下更重要的是這個歧視還包括的是在"},{"start":12581.88,"end":12593.323,"text":"我們看到的剛才黃衛委員有提到的是教師人員的一個待遇的部分像正如鍾嘉斌委員之前在總諮詢所說的終點費的部分是30年沒有調了30年沒有調了那包括的是還有一些課程的包括了行政兼職的行政費用或者是偏遠地區的這些費用等等的都沒有調"},{"start":12609.326,"end":12634.967,"text":"那這個情況之下還包括的是後面的退休金現在是因為造成了一個是目前老師的是極度的不滿那也是因為剛才不是讓我有提到說正在進行式的改革也是因為現在已經出現了不只是現職教師反彈現在所涉及的有關於教職人員的部分是應該從就是從現在我"},{"start":12637.769,"end":12654.66,"text":"現在所說的包括前面的38條或是現在的67條來講都是對限職的教師是適用的因此在在這個條件沒有改變的這個情況之下就造成了非常的一個大的嚴重在於說連失陪生失陪生從"},{"start":12656.874,"end":12674.166,"text":"一年前的資料已經顯示出來了是在未來的資料已經顯示出來是在三年內他談到教師證的人他不去參加教師甄選的達到七成那如果以五年的時間來看的話是"},{"start":12676.428,"end":12682.354,"text":"不去拿教師證了但是這個學生呢他合格的教師他不願意進入到職場的則有到四成讓失陪生都沒有辦法去不願意進入到職場的時候就是因為在現場的教師環境非常的差又被不尊重然後現在這個包括了剛才說的這些部分現在才改還在進行是那目前要做退休部分也使用到現在的教師的時候他們當然不願意進入"},{"start":12702.432,"end":12710.218,"text":"那因此就必須要趕快因為這已經是國安的問題在於說沒有台灣的長期以來的優秀包括我們的半導體人才就是在於我們有優秀的教師去培養出來沒有這個優秀的教師怎麼可能會有我們優良的人才作為我們現在作為是全球先進的這個半導體的一個製程讓護國神山的出現因此當教師沒有辦法去維持"},{"start":12728.672,"end":12737.058,"text":"好優良的教師施培生沒有進入的時候是不是造成更大的國安問題我們台灣哪裡能夠維繫到這麼好的一個條件所以這是非常重要的應該是保障現在就開始要做修正因為老師看得清楚到底是誰在進行這樣的一個改革要回復到正常的條件是不是回復到正常而已另外一部分再說現在所造成的問題"},{"start":12749.907,"end":12779.067,"text":"依照的是勞基不管是公職公教人員就是公立學校的教職員的修正上面的93條剛才的全區部的部長是不是四人節先生您剛才有提到這部分是沒錯要去要依照的是精算報告去做調整可是你們在前面一兩年的時候都沒有足額的播主就新制上面的新制上面的他因為因為他改成的變成是自己制他必須他必須要自己去提"},{"start":12780.027,"end":12794.672,"text":"自己去提交提繳自繳的這樣子的一個這個他的這個退休的金的部分有些一定的比例可是很多部分他就沒有在繳了所以這個缺額的部分才是用他會造成提前的一個破產的狀況就是有"},{"start":12795.672,"end":12810.663,"text":"全序部這邊根據精算報告來去進行的第八次跟第八九次報告都有這樣提出來的但是這整個部分包括是整個退休的制度的部分包括勞保的部分為什麼包括的是"},{"start":12811.684,"end":12837.331,"text":"有我們必須講到這個造成很大原因是政府他當初的時候的一個失信於民他當初的部分包括是勞保的部分他說勞退的部分勞退的部分並沒有讓他繳他現在是採取自繳的這樣的一個機率自繳的方式一樣的方式但是這部分因為政府也沒有去撥補到一部分的情況所以導致各個的在隨退休間的方面都出現到的是有缺額的地方那只是很"},{"start":12838.43,"end":12853.781,"text":"目前所造成的情況是勞退的部分是政府補充的是一個完全的一個提撥制他有法律名義可是對在公教人員也造成一個非常大的問題是他是造成是他是最後的"},{"start":12854.602,"end":12875.995,"text":"最後的幾復制可是現在的情況是這有那個差別當初的法法應該是在民進黨執政的時期所造成的這個他他這地方呈現出來是造成了年輕人勞工跟教室人員最大的一個所謂世代跟職業上面差異事實上是因為在制定的時候就是不一樣才會導致了我們現在的"},{"start":12877.576,"end":12903.816,"text":"這樣子的一個問題讓他再沒辦法去有這樣的一個他尤其是給複製他是希望說我當初的繳的錢比勞工多的時候劉委員可能再長話短說好就這樣子就是造成這個那現在又透過貼羞金的這部分就造成這樣的一個差異性的話絕對是要做這個回復他原來公平的對待不要因為人數少就造成一個歧視這是重要因為他涉及到我們的教育人才的培育這是我們國家的根本"},{"start":12905.579,"end":12930.442,"text":"謝謝那接下來請陳培鈺委員發言好謝謝我想還是針對主條來發言啦所以針對67條的部分我要請教在野黨委員我真的很仔細看了各個委員的版本因為確實在67條看起來很多委員對於CPI的調整還有相關數字其實是不滿意的你們認為現在的版本是不夠好的但是我要先提醒目前的版本正負5%或者是4年調整一次"},{"start":12931.303,"end":12949.982,"text":"確實也是穩定這個相關退府基金可以健全的發展往下去看但是你們現在的改法讓我覺得非常的疑惑包含有一個委員的版本非常有趣他的寫法是這樣寫的他說他寫了一個禍字他說在發布日期三個月內予以調整調整的比例由行政院會同考試"},{"start":12950.522,"end":12971.682,"text":"制定公事定之或隨軍公叫加薪比例調整我不知道這個委員的辦公室在想像這個或字放在法律條文裡面到底是要我們行政機關怎麼做事這個是我覺得如果來逐條討論這些委員的版本真的我不知道後續的調整該怎麼做還有有委員談到正3%的時候就要予以調整或"},{"start":12972.302,"end":12997.178,"text":"至少每四年予以檢討我還是看不懂這個貨的寫法到底是要行政機關怎麼做那當然現在相關的調整其實就是四年要檢討還有政府5%都要檢討那這個數字本來就是已經在法律裡面而且確實已經這麼做了在過去幾年當中我們調整已經來到6%所以要拜託在野黨的委員要看到這個數字還是希望可以維持原案"},{"start":12997.598,"end":13011.295,"text":"不要真的做修法的调整那最后我想要回应刚刚前面有好几个委员说的说现在呢这个月退休所得时之没有办法照顾现在的生活我们来看一下最新统计的数字113年"},{"start":13013.277,"end":13033.325,"text":"每個月生活必須就是政府公告的數字我們就看六都就好台北市生活成本最高每個月最基本的必須生活所的個人就一個人大概是兩萬塊左右高雄市一萬四到一萬五新北市一萬六到一萬七台南市一萬四到一萬五桃園市一萬五到一萬六台中市一萬五到一萬六"},{"start":13034.065,"end":13059.185,"text":"而這些是所謂個人基本最基本最基本最基本就是不用特別上餐館我們就講最基本但是對照剛剛已經有很多委員也看見相關的數字是五萬多塊六萬多塊剛剛事務長也講了就情感上他可能也覺得好像可以支持但是就整體的法制還有身為一個主管機關他必須要如實的拜託大家去看這個數字而這個數字是怎麼稱出來的這個數字是"},{"start":13061.327,"end":13079.754,"text":"透過年改後我們好不容易走到今天而不管是相關的撥補或是相關的挹注其實都希望這個制度可以走下去我們後續還要面對破產的問題我們不希望它提早破產我們不希望提早讓大家看見這個困境因為這個困境是誰要面對的其實不是民進黨黨團也不是民進黨政府"},{"start":13082.475,"end":13108.297,"text":"而是全台灣的納稅人我想要拜託在內黨委員我們來看一下去年報稅目前是644萬戶納稅人而這些納稅人現在如果看到你們這個提案他們心裡作何感想他們現在辛苦納稅的錢要去支持你們所想像的特殊族群你們的特殊條法就只是希望他們的所謂退休金可以再往上提高那你們說這個不是倒退的列車你們認為只是"},{"start":13109.818,"end":13118.923,"text":"你們認為這是停車但是我不知道但是我不知道你們認為這個只是stop herejust stop here的主席可不可以讓我講完我剛按錯請王委員先讓陳委員把話說完我剛才講"},{"start":13138.536,"end":13160.5,"text":"提高破產的威脅好嗎所以我要講你們我說不要往上提高造成破產的威脅我一直在講的是整個年金的制度還有整個系統所以我要講的是我昨天一直說這是一個倒退的列車那如果在黨委員認為你們只是just stop"},{"start":13161.72,"end":13183.907,"text":"剛剛賴時寶委員也說了那這個停車到底會造成什麼困境我認為全序部已經講得非常的清楚所以我想我最後的反應就停在這邊我剛說提高是造成破產的威脅這件事情因為昨天王委員你自己也說了他們也如實的告訴你兩千多萬然後只是提早四年但是我認為這個困境是我們大家要共同面對的並不是只有民進黨團或是民進黨政府好 謝謝"},{"start":13185.882,"end":13203.868,"text":"好 謝謝那我們就先處理會議時間上午的會議就繼續進行到議程所列事項及所有的都處理完畢為止好 那麼接下來就是機關代表還要發言嗎那鄭部長需要發言嗎好 OK那我們就是這一條就是第67條"},{"start":13207.149,"end":13231.341,"text":"發言的委員以及列席機關代表都已經發言完畢然後該條就討論結束現在我們就做成決議第67條含修正動議決議就一併保留那本案逐條都已經處理完畢那做以下宣告第一就是本案審查完據擬據審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":13234.827,"end":13253.429,"text":"那麼第二就是本案必須交由黨團協商第三就是院會討論時由翁召集委員小林出席說明那麼條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語就授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":13256.141,"end":13273.817,"text":"我們是反對全案送出委員會還是保留委員會要透過委員會的協商程序那麼針對全案審訊送出委員會的決議有沒有意義 有意義既然有意義的話我們就進行表決現在就採用舉手表決那表決之前我們先清點在場人數"},{"start":13283.095,"end":13309.742,"text":"再算一遍因為有些委員可能不是教文跟司法委員會的委員在場出席委員在場出席委員17人不喊主席17人再確認一次"},{"start":13323.892,"end":13331.017,"text":"我再宣告一次在場出席委員17人是不含主席的那麼我們就現在開始表決贊成討論"},{"start":13333.939,"end":13360.02,"text":"贊成議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊之後必須交協商送院會的決議贊成者請舉手好 那麼請放下贊成者12位好"},{"start":13362.315,"end":13371.823,"text":"可是因為我們剛剛已經進入表決了那麼反對者請舉手反對者總共五位委員"},{"start":13381.894,"end":13407.398,"text":"因為後續的來的就是因為秀華委員在主持教育委員會他在主持教育委員會可是我們剛剛清點人數已經清點了17位因為他在主持教育委員會所以呢反對的話就是我們提重複表決再讓我們召委可以表決好不好先請發下好了那我們就再重新清點在場人數一次從現在開始之後進來的委員就不算了"},{"start":13410.592,"end":13435.928,"text":"好 總共18位在場出席委員18人那我們現在開始表決贊成議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊後須交協商送院會的決議的委員那麼贊成者請舉手好 請放下"},{"start":13437.7,"end":13463.853,"text":"贊成委員12位反對者請舉手請放下反對委員6位我們表決結果舉手表決的表決結果在場出席18人贊成者12位反對者6位贊成者多數過半本案通過議程討論事項足條保留全案審訊之後就會送院會"},{"start":13470.325,"end":13492.815,"text":"還是有草野協商啊還是草野協商啊還是要送協商啊對不對 這個請加注因為這樣會造成誤解好 我再宣告一點就是省郡但是是保留議程討論事項主條保留議程討論事項主條保留全案省郡須交草野協商送院會"},{"start":13497.503,"end":13526.296,"text":"好的 那麼現在有羅志強委員等人有提出復議的動議那麼我們請議事人員宣讀提案內容案有針對第十一屆第四會議司法及法治教育及文化委員會第二次聯席會議討論四項著作之各項決議提出復議並請立即處理事有當 慶請空決提案委員羅志強 葉元之 劉淑彬 林倩琪 王王威 宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有異議"},{"start":13527.912,"end":13548.138,"text":"好 那有異議的話我們就進行表決那我們也是採舉手表決那表決前先清點在場出席委員人數好 在場出席委員18位那麼我們就現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手贊成什麼贊成復議動議贊成復議動議贊成復議案的請舉手"},{"start":13560.575,"end":13569.82,"text":"好 請放下贊成的有6位委員那反對的請舉手反對的委員請舉手反對動議的委員請舉手好 請放下反對者有12位"},{"start":13580.064,"end":13597.28,"text":"副議案的表決結果在場出席委員18人贊成者6人反對者12人贊成者少數不通過副議案不通過仍然維持原決議也就是議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊必須交協商送院會處理好"},{"start":13600.427,"end":13612.996,"text":"那么本次的议程所列的事项都已经处理完毕了会议进行到此结束那非常谢谢大家今天整个上午的配合那现在散会就谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"165178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cde4284648a3f3c5a91e8053ceea3e5d74dbaf0ce63b1deeb9aee49d70c0691da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:14:39 - 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我們請部長請顧部長是 陳偉永部長好部長 這個烏俄戰爭讓大家知道說無人機的重要但是它是也有限制的那根據瑞典國防院它的分析它指出這個FPV摧毀裝甲的實際效果那通常是在20到25%左右"},{"start":28.78,"end":48.263,"text":"那會依照操作人員的素質那目標類型還有是否使用像是光線連線等等因素會有一些大幅的變動那也就是說 便宜不見得是有效那大量的堆砌也不見得代表說戰力就會按比例增加"},{"start":49.224,"end":76.681,"text":"那在現在這種操作特別是FPP的操作上那還是偏向有人操作還是有操作員那去操作也算是人力密集的工作那過去我們看在初期戰爭的時候他是有效的來去壓制他們的各種他們裝甲兵力等等但是隨著時間的推移那俄羅斯他反制的能力也增加那他也都是在針對這一個操作人員"},{"start":77.662,"end":103.492,"text":"那再加上電子干擾那還有在可能在城鎮的這個環境下他的訓練負擔還有物極的風險還有命中率都會放大所以說我想請教一下我們現在的無人機假設是以這種第一人稱的這種無人機的這個採購的話那當然現在還是以這個有人操作為主什麼時候大概有可能會成全面的這種AI化的可能性想請教一下部長怎麼看"},{"start":109.643,"end":124.485,"text":"軍備局局長來說個說明我們現在針對之前我們七月份的五行基美我們會按照我們軍種的作戰的需求還有結合到我們國內的廠門當然包含到嘉峪、亞太啊還有一些國內的"},{"start":125.886,"end":148.599,"text":"現在初期 初期當然是可能會用一個人用加工 FPV 就跟委員講的那這個的數量需要人力我們會循序漸進的到了一年之後或甚至兩年我們就會用群工減少這種人力的操作用AI去識別追瞄甚至用"},{"start":149.199,"end":158.269,"text":"Match去多點去遙控我們的G群來做一個配合新的科技的發展這個都在我們的合約的設計當中以上報告"},{"start":159.124,"end":186.386,"text":"好謝謝所以說現階段我們目前這個AI全面AI化還是需要一點時間嗎是那因為我現在得到的訊息是蠻就是不太一樣有些人說現在全世界完全AI化的無人機還沒有有些人說已經有我想請教這個局長到底是現在的科技的這個進展到什麼程度"},{"start":186.886,"end":207.469,"text":"恩維報告全部都是AI化包含群工而言在世界上還沒有嗎成熟度也不是很好還要一點時間所以說我們現在就是做交替就是說先從先從我們有人控制開始然後慢慢的再往這個全面性群工就是這樣"},{"start":208.795,"end":233.301,"text":"那在這個期間這個過渡期我們現在是也算是最後階段的過渡期那烏克蘭有出現這種無人機的軍團獎勵的制度那就是說他們在實際作戰的時候那如果你有擊中得分那你就可以直接就擊中的話得分或者是用換武器的方式他用這種方式用激勵型的方式那去鼓勵無人機的飛手那去拼他的戰果"},{"start":234.341,"end":245.209,"text":"那說制度實施一年之後他的俄軍的傷亡顯著增加兩倍那這方面的做法不知道我們有沒有要採取或者是來仿效"},{"start":246.489,"end":265.047,"text":"報告委員我是卓醫師次長剛剛委員所提示的這些烏克蘭現在在戰場上為了提升他的殺傷率來鼓勵官兵的這種積分的做法我們有在做掌握所以我們現在也藉由跟各個不同國家交流的方式現在也正在觀察無人機競賽"},{"start":266.909,"end":287.169,"text":"還有在納進來在不管是在社團的活動去做建制這個我們也納在未來的規劃項目當中那等到我們無人機逐漸籌貨之後希望未來有機會在國內籌辦不管是軍或民之間的這種無人機競賽來去提高我們這些無人機操作手在執行上的這個純熟度"},{"start":288.71,"end":310.549,"text":"跟激勵他們的作為非常鼓勵做這件事情那我也希望可以跟教育部合作我講這件事情是因為我們包含西口國中那他們自己都有自己的無人機隊那其實這種競賽的模式從小朋友他從他最開始就可以培養出對理工的這種喜歡那對這種操作我想都是有幫助的不過他們通常經費都來自於教育部"},{"start":311.249,"end":329.245,"text":"我是希望說國防部如果可以從他們小朋友們年輕的時候開始就給予一些激勵的話那對未來產業他不見得一定要走國防軍事他也可以在未來如果對這種產業有興趣的話他也可以去我們的民雄航太園區裡面有除了這個中科院之外也有一般招商的地方"},{"start":329.685,"end":356.646,"text":"那從小就可以培養出這樣子的可能性所以我說我們國防預算編列的時候那國防教育特別是從中小學高中這些是不是也可以考量一下給我們一些這樣的預算來去鼓勵我們這些國中同學們我們軍中要辦這個無人機的競賽之外那麼跨部會的這個部分我們基於全民國防的這個理念我們也會來支持"},{"start":357.253,"end":372.567,"text":"因為我舉西口作為它是我們嘉義縣的山區的鄉鎮那是全縣最老年化的部分但同時它又有全縣接受最新科技最尖端科技從國中就開始培養了"},{"start":373.308,"end":394.08,"text":"那我们是希望说未来国防部编列运算的时候可以思考一下是不是可以给这些同学更多的机会所以我们以后就是不用只跟教育部去申请经费让他们去参加无人机的这种比赛啊或者是辞职啊培养啊他们甚至是可以自己维修哦这些国中的同学是可以自己维修那我们在无人机的这一个"},{"start":396.081,"end":416.693,"text":"籌貨的部分我們是除了說希望他能夠去作戰之外我們也是希望說他可以把他成為一個讓我們的這些訓練能源不僅僅是會飛他未來還可以修還可以換因為他要籌載所以這些從小都有一些概念的話那我想相信對這個產業是會有很大的幫助"},{"start":417.369,"end":445.017,"text":"那再來我還是再提一下就是關於歐洲幾個主要的國家像是英國它近年來對國防預算的編列它是採20 40 40的配置也就是說它還是保有這個20%的傳統軍事系統那在40%它是把攻擊型無人機小型無人機是在複雜地形的這個戰略目標那40%的這個經費那主要是做一些無人機跟協同的系統"},{"start":445.837,"end":459.943,"text":"所以我想请教一下部长在这个国防部的预算当中我们未来在常规火力攻击型无人机或者是这个情节的配置大概是用这样子的方式吗清北局说明一下"},{"start":461.923,"end":478.157,"text":"跟委員報告我們任何一個的配置都是依照連山的一個作戰需求多少的偵察機然後要配多少的攻擊機等等的那我們這一次委員已經有看到我們公告的五行級裡面就有偵察機"},{"start":479.338,"end":507.046,"text":"那其他四型就一型偵察機其他四型都是攻擊機那假如要用預算比例這個目前就是說它的單價不同A5PP大概十萬塊以下可是一架偵察機可能只要好幾百萬以上說明好 謝謝我只是要提醒這也不是全部的國防預算它在244是應該是他們的配置在這一個前線上面的他們在看烏克蘭的時候在想說最適化的配置是怎麼樣"},{"start":508.208,"end":533.367,"text":"那另外就是在討論一下這次在這個華沙的安全論壇那謝律生中將也有參與那裡面有一個警示說不要把無人機很多當成是未來的常態他說關鍵能是奪取空中優勢說只有先有空優那再無人機才能夠協同那想請教一下針對這一個看法是不是可以請這個將軍來"},{"start":536.05,"end":551.548,"text":"簡單的來跟全民分享為什麼是只有這樣子的說法委員好 謝立委員剛剛提問當時在華沙論壇裡面那個General Brilov 他所提的是我們要先做好"},{"start":552.555,"end":577.187,"text":"万全的准备那千万不要等到因为敌人永远永有永远都有一个最后决定权他要采取什么样的进攻方式那所以他用这个方式来提醒欧洲国家应该借借着二五战争还有我们台湾的这个这个经验那共同一起来跟我们一起合作我想我想这个是当时Brilliant将军他在"},{"start":578.267,"end":602.067,"text":"這個無人機這個預算的編配要或者是整個歐洲在面對相同的威脅的時候應該要有的一個態度以上謝謝我剛修正一下剛才我提到244是指在無人機跟傳統軍事的這一個配比不是指全他們所有的國防預算然後修正一下我剛才的說法也麻煩修正在議事錄上"},{"start":603.035,"end":632.011,"text":"那接下來再提到最後我們最近有看到一些國外的這些媒體跟智庫他有提到關於跟烏克蘭跟台灣的類比那就是因為他們在烏克蘭戰爭到現在也三年多了那他們在類比說在導彈跟空襲的狀況之下那他的抗炸能力就是在一些我們重要的軍事堡壘或者是這個軍事基地跟空軍基地"},{"start":632.751,"end":660.767,"text":"那因為畢竟我們跟烏克蘭的這個土地面積是不成比例的那台灣的面積是烏克蘭的是七分之一那如果排除這些沒有人居住的地方那我們的面積就更小了所以換言之說如果中國的這個戰力跟他們的火力集中在我們的主要的軍事目標上那我們勢必就要面臨他們的飽和式的攻擊"},{"start":661.747,"end":680.187,"text":"那剛才提到的什麼空優等等的就是有些是操之在人就是我們必須要確保說我們的這個戰鬥機能夠準時或者是說現在應該是沒辦法準時就盡快快速到達但是如果沒有辦法的話那至少要保存現有戰力"},{"start":681.092,"end":700.357,"text":"那我們現在自身的防禦能力如果面對中共的部署的各型的這種導彈火炮甚至是攻擊型無人機我們有沒有足夠的能力來承擔這一波火的攻擊就是在各個這些空軍基地上面的這些堡壘這些機庫上面想請教一下部長目前狀況為何"},{"start":702.37,"end":730.336,"text":"委員好 空軍常務長跟您做個報告一般我們會做兵力分散部署那我們眾所皆知我們在東部都有這個整個洞庫的一個防禦做一個戰力的保存那我們也持續在建構我們的抗炸機庫在各基地裡面持續在推動 在建置那目前有兩個案子目前正在進行當中那這個就是以中共傳統的這個三千磅的炸彈能夠抗"},{"start":731.656,"end":752.486,"text":"3300磅炸彈的這個機庫為主來持續的推動建構那之前珠網行動就是他們可能是在基地周遭那預先配置這些攻擊型無人機然後攻擊型無人機然後進入機庫裡面甚至有些沒有在機庫裡面的就直接被炸毀那相關的防禦也有跟著一起升級嗎"},{"start":754.031,"end":769.685,"text":"我想這個是涉及到我們的這個反滲透跟反情報的一個作用因為中央的行動他應該是要到跨境到俄羅斯的境內裡面然後用短程的無人機來進行攻擊所以這個相關的我們的這些"},{"start":770.485,"end":791.25,"text":"可能被侵入到這個相關的這個地境內而不被查資這個可能是一個關鍵那俄羅斯跟烏克蘭是整個陸地是接壤的那我們的這個部分當然是一個四面環島的地方那所以我們重要當然是在地的內部的這些可能做進行這個滲透的這個人我們要"},{"start":794.811,"end":807.352,"text":"如何來進行查查來避免被這樣子在相關的這個鄰近的地境內做這個特工的攻擊所以這個部分我們是應該要做好這部分的工作好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"165177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cd81c3ff4142b758eb96356aa020e99bb4dbaf0ce63b1deeb73c96730c4a1dd3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:21:33 - 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這個專法我們等了非常非常久事實上在2016到2020我在第一次擔任立委期間我就跟許部長溝通了很久這個法案到底說應該由勞動部提出自己的版本出來"},{"start":26.997,"end":43.215,"text":"我更認為會更周延那私底下無論是在立法院的公聽會或者是私底下各黨團之間跟所有的外送員溝通其實我知道我們私底下溝通了不下數十次以上"},{"start":44.036,"end":62.457,"text":"但是我非常高興在這一屆當中一開始國民黨黨團在第一時間就把專法列為優先法案那在大罷免之後我們立即由召委趕快來安排但我們也樂見在這一次當中民進黨黨團也積極提出版本"},{"start":63.058,"end":78.301,"text":"那也希望透過不斷的公聽會的檢討讓接下來的修法可以更完整這個是最主要的目的但是我要強調是這個專法我們這個會期國民黨我們積極要把這個案子完成三讀"},{"start":79.523,"end":95.419,"text":"那我們也希望行政單位也好各黨派我們可以提出版本坐下來好好討論把外送員的權益剛剛也講得很清楚政府要有法才有機會真正照顧到外送員的權益你沒有這把刀"},{"start":96.3,"end":113.98,"text":"你們有一個法律的位階基礎外送人在溝通過程當中永遠是弱勢好 接下來我要強調說隨著數位經濟的發展我們的形態消費的形態不斷地模式不斷地在產生新的變化那都在科技跟法律間不斷地拉扯"},{"start":114.5,"end":142.666,"text":"所以外送专法不仅是我们劳动的相关的议题更是在检验我们台湾在数位经济时代是不是能够兼顾创新跟公平那非典型的就业的崛起我们劳动市场结构其实不断的在改变我们目前在台湾非典的就业人数达到80万人占整体就业的人口数达到7%但其中想转为"},{"start":143.326,"end":170.359,"text":"全職的工作者僅只有14.82%也就是說將近85%的人都還是希望留在這個非典型的就業的形態裡頭那裡頭更有將近15歲到24歲年輕的族群當中更有高達20%留在這樣的一個非典型的就業工作當中比鄰近日本跟韓國的比例就非常高出許多"},{"start":170.899,"end":193.357,"text":"所以這樣子的工作型態 無論是他的彈性化跟零碎化的工作型態未來有可能在台灣持續的增加所以這也就代表著我們內閥的重要性憑良心講我的辦公室也好或者我平常在我選區走動的時候常常碰到外送員他都跟我講說他們求助無門"},{"start":193.837,"end":206.513,"text":"或者碰到勞資糾紛的時候碰到薪資單莫名其妙被砍的時候但是在跟勞工局溝通的過程當中他們就是弱勢的一群他們就是弱勢的一群"},{"start":207.918,"end":226.906,"text":"有勾沒有通或者是我們沒有足夠的法源依據去足夠去支撐他們所以外送平台憑著高度的自主彈性的時間的特性成為非典型的工作者的首選所以外送員在台灣目前有15萬人已經是一個不容忽視正在成型的數位勞動階層"},{"start":228.687,"end":257.168,"text":"从过去传统的雇佣关系过去都是重属性高度的重属性但是我们都知道数位的非典型劳工它就是属于低度的重属性这样的一个工作形态过去是透过演算派单评分的讲诚机制来控制我们现在的劳动过程所以一直不断的弱化了我们外送员当碰到劳资纠纷的时候他们的谈判地位其实非常的低"},{"start":257.648,"end":283.763,"text":"那地方劳工局也好我们现在法源依据真的是不够有足够的法源依据足以去支撑他们所以很多应该要有的一些业者应该负担平台应该负担的成本现在变成外部化甚至是外送员在承担这样的一个不合理的状态凸显出我们立即立法的重要性所以在这边我再一次强调我们希望"},{"start":284.423,"end":310.258,"text":"透過這一次的公聽會那我們有機會把各自的版本調整的更好甚至是勞動部主動提出更好的版本出來我們大家坐下來好好溝通這個是凝聚出共識共同解決我們在數位經濟之下我們碰到了難題也解決目前15萬外送員常常碰到勞資糾紛的時候求助無門的窘境謝謝"},{"start":315.094,"end":316.558,"text":"謝謝 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麻煩請顧立雄部長 請顧部長顧部長好 顧部長剛聽您在接受幾位委員答詢 其實講的都相對保守我確認幾個部分喔 就是現在國防部目前有提出特別預算的需求 是不是給行政院審議條例在送行政院審議 是那裡面有包括說預算的金額 規模 大小"},{"start":29.977,"end":35.185,"text":"我想條例的這個部分在行政審議當中我知道條例裡面有包含有沒有包含嗎這個總"},{"start":37.998,"end":66.463,"text":"有沒有包含可以講嘛如果國安不能講不能講沒關係我只是尊重但是我現在想講確認的是條例裡面有沒有包含規模跟時程是包含條例裡面有預算上限有預算上限嘛對嘛就跟我們處理特別條例一樣都一樣嘛有譬如說多少億的預算上限嘛好所以第一有預算的規模那第二審議當中所以你現在也不能證實或說如果行政院還沒有核定的話你也不能講我尊重因為這確實"},{"start":67.663,"end":81.768,"text":"但是我們有看到最近有出現這所謂的公開閱覽那公開閱覽媒體也報導說他不是一個正式的招標公告是收集各界對於招標文件的意見所以未來招標公告也可能有出入對不對"},{"start":83.068,"end":105.988,"text":"是 是嗎 好那問題來啦我們軍購也好或是一般的政府採購也好其實也蠻長的就是我們政府部門要做事情的時候我也會諮詢廠商的意見看合理的價格多少錢來編列預算然後到最後推出標案但不是說我一定指定給誰而是說我了解市場上的行情之後我推出來的這個標案"},{"start":107.709,"end":131.751,"text":"透過公開採購招標的過程裡面那我們來做一個最終得標可是我們也知道我們的對象相對來講軍購就比較局限 美方 對不對那所以說對象比較局限那另外第二個部分通常我們在做這樣子的合理的一個推估的時候從來不會把我們的預算上限或是我們最低底線要編多少錢給講出來"},{"start":133.613,"end":138.51,"text":"可是現在就有民進黨的委員到美國去講了一個1.3兆的數字啊"},{"start":139.81,"end":168.218,"text":"那1.3兆數字出來之後全國華人才會覺得是說為什麼現在都在行政院審議當中你有條例裡面有但我沒有問因為我也不清楚我相信你也不方便講可是為什麼會出現1.3兆那1.3兆出來了不就是把底牌先出來給其他人看嗎那未來的這一些來投票的廠商或潛在的投票廠商他不就是會看你已經有1.3兆啊所以我即便我價格沒有那麼高我也可以喊到那麼高啊因為你到最後你有錢來買單啊"},{"start":172.304,"end":194.816,"text":"來 1.3兆這怎麼來的 能不能評論方委員1.3兆這個數字我們實在無從得失沒有什麼無從得失 剛剛新聞已經出來了就民進黨的委員那兩個跑去 一個還是我們外交國防的兩個都外交國防的委員跑去美國 然後美國的報導中央社寫回來的啊我們國內大家媒體都寫啦"},{"start":196.349,"end":203.436,"text":"包委員 這個我們無從得知因為他不是從國防部洩露出去的秘密這個不是國防部提供的資料好 那就行政院囉"},{"start":205.177,"end":231.989,"text":"所以行政院透過民進黨的委員去跟美國放消息告訴美國說我們有這個錢啊你們放心的報價吧我想國安部沒有任何這樣的一個意思我相信你們沒有這個意思嘛這個我相信啊因為我覺得我們要成一件事情不可能我先透露底牌啊而且來透露了底牌是不是對於我們的溢價也會比較辛苦"},{"start":233.243,"end":244.4,"text":"我覺得會啊您現在講的是個別的項目還是因為現在講的是整體的預算的上限整體的規模嘛那整體的規模可以透露嗎"},{"start":245.373,"end":271.634,"text":"整體的規模現在就是還在行政院審議當中對 還在審議當中嘛 但本席想問的是說大家問正常管道都問不出來嘛但是就有一個1.3兆的數字出來啦那如果說到之後出來行政院核定我不知道但行政院感覺起來短期內在今年就會出來那行政院如果出來到最後是1.35兆 1.38兆那是不是合理懷疑他其實講得很正確啊"},{"start":274.165,"end":296.233,"text":"我想我們對個別委員的發言只能表示尊重但是我們沒有辦法表示任何的意見部長我很難得其實我再次強調在法學界來講我尊重您過去的專業但是在過去這一年多您擔任國防部部長我很難得看到您那麼的沒有像以前那麼大鳴大放"},{"start":298.064,"end":318.792,"text":"上有長官下也有同仁結果你變夾在中間然後好像什麼都不敢講那聯邦我們國軍弟兄捍衛應有的權益也沒有捍衛那我只講一件事啊真的大家想一下如果今天換位子今天是兩個國民黨的委員跑去美國講這個數字的話會被什麼樣輿論的攻擊邁台透露機密國安機密透露"},{"start":328.579,"end":347.115,"text":"結果是兩個民進黨的國防委員會的委員 合適嗎那我們到底要不要特別預算捍衛中華民國 捍衛台灣 我都支持我願意用生命捍衛中華民國 跟大家一樣"},{"start":348.53,"end":377.084,"text":"那但是如果說我們存在這樣的一個狀況我不知道他們是什麼心態是有被上層授意就是要先去透露風聲安撫美國安撫某些特定人士還是說他們只是轟型先知道了什麼消息所以說就是想要去搶個獨家啊但是重點是對於我們國軍弟兄我們今天討論這些東西然後結果大家啞口無言不覺得對國軍弟兄是一種傷害嗎"},{"start":387.864,"end":394.23,"text":"部長我們繼續加油啦中華民國國防靠大家捍衛但是我們一起努力為中華民國打拚謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165175","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c4200104c194d186bb96356aa020e99bb4dbaf0ce63b1deeb1677080d570f7ede5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:06:29 - 12:12:01","影片長度":"00:05:32","會議時間":"2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會（事由：舉行「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」及「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」公聽會。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-06","start_time":"2025-11-06T12:06:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-06T12:12:01+08:00","duration":332,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.22409375,"end":103.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.35221875,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.39221875000001,"end":324.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.97971875,"end":332.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.446,"end":26.39,"text":"謝謝主席 各位來自外送產業的代表 我們外送員的夥伴各位官員以及關心勞動議題的朋友們 大家早安今天這場公聽會我們討論的不只是一個新興的產業而是一個正在改變社會結構的現象這我想外送平台已經不再只是單純便利生活的一個工具而是一個有超過15萬從業人口的龐大的產業鏈"},{"start":30.331,"end":48.028,"text":"其中很高的比例其實是所謂的全職的從業人員那他其實實實在在的支撐城市的運轉也支撐了這個當代很多這個國民朋友的生活品質但我們跟這個產業相關的一個制度卻依然停在他剛起步的時代實在是速度太慢了一點"},{"start":48.809,"end":72.772,"text":"這我們今天就表達一下我們的看法第一我們談一下外送員的現況現行制度的落差是外送員在街頭奔波風吹雨打風險很高但發生車禍職災或者是有停權糾紛等等往往沒有足夠的公會代表沒有足夠的申訴管道也沒有保險可以撐住這些人很多人認為外送員是自由工作者但事實上實務上來講這個跟平台的"},{"start":74.033,"end":98.128,"text":"這個合作那是在所當然平台當然能夠設定制度決定是否接單收入高低等等那這樣的關係有自由但是也有辛苦的地方我們自己在選區啊也接了很多外送員好朋友的陳情意見裡面比如說平台如果更新了演算法但是外送員不見得知道演算法的邏輯那麼這個影響了接單的量也就影響了收入或者是說發生了一些糾紛"},{"start":98.968,"end":102.777,"text":"出現了被停權的一個狀況當然就只能記性申訴但是這個時間"},{"start":104.437,"end":129.787,"text":"在回復之前他等於是沒有工作的一個狀態這些其實都是來自於基層的心聲也希望這個透過法治化因為制度真空而造成的各式各樣的問題跟缺漏我們希望能夠有所處理那第二我們談一下立法的必要性有現在三個黨團很多的委員甚至我剛剛稍早提我們勞動部現在都會有院版有外送平台的管理及外送人權益保障等等草案這我想不是為了要管"},{"start":130.707,"end":149.686,"text":"為管而管嘛而是要讓每一個從業人員都更有保障那麼縱覽各個委員的版本各個黨團的版本大概有三個蠻重要的議題值得大家對焦第一個當然是比較深水區的議題就是所謂的要不要薪資保障嘛因為既然它已經形成了一個獨立的一個產業嘛而且大部分是全職工作者嘛"},{"start":150.106,"end":167.335,"text":"那他到底勞工是承攬這總要討論的那麼在這個薪資的過程中有沒有合理的運價跟所謂的收入的保障的制度的討論去避免這個押價或者是演算法操作等等的狀況這個值得大家共同討論對焦第二是保險制度的建立"},{"start":169.135,"end":185.222,"text":"這個我想外送員風吹日曬他其實是一個蠻高風險的產業有車禍各式各樣職災的高風險那麼有沒有強制投保職災險第三人責任險等等不要讓每一次的送單變成冒險的第二第三是有關於程序正義這有關於出現糾紛客訴等等狀況"},{"start":186.102,"end":206.21,"text":"操作外送員被停權的時候有沒有明確的理由有沒有空開透明的這樣一個申訴的機制不能讓平台單方面的決定外送員的生計而是要求平台外送員跟政府我們要共同承擔社會責任第三我們談對平台跟政府的期待我們這裡要呼籲兩個對象第一我們要跟我們所有外送平台業者還要喊喊話"},{"start":207.07,"end":227.869,"text":"這個各位的成功啊是建立在外送員朋友的辛苦勞動的成果之上這個業務我們當然都希望可以大展宏圖可以服務更多的人但展現非凡成就之餘啊要記得我們外送員夥伴這個基層在風中雨中趕單跑單的結果我想建立一個透明的制度讓外送員更加的安全讓他們更有尊嚴"},{"start":228.79,"end":251.238,"text":"並不會削弱企業的競爭力反而會讓外送平台的品牌更值得信任第二 我們要針對政府主管機關來喊話我們勞動部 交通部 經濟部衛福部 金管會這四射非常非常多的單位但一旦啊 公共政策四射很多單位的時候大家就擔心互踢皮球而進度緩慢我們不希望再看到互相推諉這是一個跨部會的勞動議題"},{"start":252.338,"end":274.216,"text":"我們應該共同合作從派單制度、交通安全、保險給付等等一起建立完整的管理體系我們要讓制度跟上時代外送的產業它不會只是一個短暫的現象它是數位派遣經濟的開端今天我們要替外送員、外送平台來立法就是要替未來所有的工作者共同立法不管是機安的設計師、電商物流人員、AI的工作者"},{"start":275.117,"end":290.453,"text":"還有等等未來也都會在這個數位時代面對類似的問題我們如何讓平台跟勞動者取得一個平衡如何讓制度更加完善我想這是今天公聽會的重要目的我們讓新型態的勞動者也有新的保護網"},{"start":291.354,"end":316.02,"text":"我相信一個公平的社會我們不能只靠同情要靠的是制度外送員也不需要被施捨他們需要被尊重他們需要被保障同樣平台業者也需要一個合理而且穩定的基準既保障運作也擔負社會責任而政府與立法者的責任就是讓這些保障成為現實讓我們一起往前走不要只是紙上條文我們要特別感謝廖偉強委員積極排案也感謝各個黨團都積極響應期待這個15萬家庭的產業鏈能夠在外送員保障專法"},{"start":321.001,"end":324.123,"text":"立法之後有一個更安全更穩定的環境謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"165174","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165174","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8c48c462eaa54f81b091e8053ceea3e5d74dbaf0ce63b1deeb0c497b3694df335b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:56:22 - 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楊瓊發言 邀請部長請顧部長是楊維"},{"start":14.264,"end":35.162,"text":"部長好 我們來討論無人載具裝備部隊的規劃跟特別預算的規劃我們今天討論的這個規劃的議程因為近年來無人載具含空中 地面以及海上都已經成為戰場主力的一個趨勢所以首先要請教部長我們國軍是否已經"},{"start":36.383,"end":48.383,"text":"建立了專責的無人載具作戰單位或者是編制那國軍對於無人載具在我們的戰力上面你的角色跟你的規劃方向是什麼請做說明請做記事"},{"start":50.9,"end":72.523,"text":"保委員我是座議事次長跟委員報告有關無人機專責部隊的編制我們按照貨裝的期程目前已經編成了陸戰隊有火力營無人機營另外北中南各軍團有編成無人機的大隊那結合未來貨裝的期程會逐步再編成其他類型的專責部隊來去做無人機的操作跟戰術運用"},{"start":73.737,"end":83.762,"text":"所以確實我們是有所規劃而且在執行之所以部長根據日前媒體的一個報導我們政府電子採購網公開的資訊我們在3號公布了一項涉及635套"},{"start":90.546,"end":117.231,"text":"可惜式的無人機反制系統公開來越南岸它的總金額是高達96億元它更著名喔它的預算來源是115年至117年度特別預算請教部長這到底什麼狀況啊你們的規劃這個特別預算是不是屬實那你的進度又是如何呢"},{"start":118.847,"end":144.869,"text":"請做說明包委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一個這個公開閱覽是依據政府採購法第34條當然它的主要目的是也是為了了解國內的商情還有相關的規格的一個徵求那它不是一個正式的招標文件所以它在上面它還有註明預算尚未奉核然後等到真的獲得了預算的法源之後才予以登錄好"},{"start":146.37,"end":167.402,"text":"謝謝你 那部長那到底現在公開閱覽的上面是住民115年到117年的特別預算因為到目前為止現在是114年11月份立法院還沒有收到這樣的訊息那請教部長到底有沒有要編列這樣的預算我想"},{"start":172.16,"end":195.031,"text":"剛剛參謀長已經說明了現在就是在一個公開徵詢的一個階段那要有這個預算的編列一定要到大院來那請教部長到底你國防部會不會編列這個預算我們當然會有一個規劃所以你會編那這個規模也就是照這個公開院的數字一樣是96億是從115年到117年是不是如此"},{"start":199.552,"end":224.58,"text":"相關的這個規劃我想還要等到最後確定以後當然啊 因為你已經公開閱覽了嘛你已經公開閱覽那現在是114年的11月份我們現在沒有看到特別預算請問 請問你什麼時候會編出來我想現在在行政院審議當中就請 等行政院的審議預算已經送行政院沒有 現在條例"},{"start":225.701,"end":246.324,"text":"條例送行政院 所以還沒有這個預算預算的具體的項目還沒有等條例你這個行政院合併之後你就會編列預算 流程是如此嘛你條例 現在您的進度 貝希解讀的正不正確你現在條例已經送到行政院來做審議 是不是"},{"start":247.099,"end":257.618,"text":"在審議當中 是預計什麼時候會審議完成我想還沒有辦法 我要看行政院因為這是行政院的權責那請問今年年底你會不會提出這一筆特別預算"},{"start":258.514,"end":277.794,"text":"我想就依照行政院的指導 我們會來規劃辦理規劃辦理 所以確定是有這筆預算跟這個條例確定也是有這個方向跟規劃115年到117年的這個特別預算案 是不是如此"},{"start":278.61,"end":308.27,"text":"我們整個的特別預算案應該現在規劃是7年的特別預算案好 你講到這裡我們現在理清楚了一件事情因為軍購的特別預算到底情況是怎麼樣上一次本席在大院裡頭也跟您討論過那院長也說院長說他知道這個事情那他也說進度到底在哪裡你也特別補充特別條例就是已經送到行政院在做審議的工作是不是如此"},{"start":309.45,"end":335.797,"text":"對 應該是由政委在做審議那這個規模是不是照我們在媒體上以及貴黨的委員在美國所說的是7年同時是達到1.3兆的預算是不是如此 我想這個我還是在重複就是說關於這個預算的這個規模還是要等行政院審議的結果你的方向是不是如此是不是史上最高的特別預算"},{"start":336.337,"end":357.99,"text":"我想還是 是不是我們還是等行政院最後審議結果來決定來在對外公布行政院審定是您去籌劃出來嗎我們既然確定是有涉事那會不會超過一兆以上我想我們還是要尊重行政院的審議部長 這個也就是今天是114年11月了你們的公開閱覽說115年到117年"},{"start":364.591,"end":391.971,"text":"是多少 96億的預算我們到現在還沒有收到 這第一個第二個 本席一直請教 民眾希望知道國家的安全我們絕對支持但是我們要知道到底內容是什麼我們的預算規模是什麼我們的預計期程是什麼因為這個是整個國家財政的一個紀律跟辯列那但是到目前為止 本席再請教"},{"start":393.874,"end":417.55,"text":"我們如此的這個反覆的尋答得到的答案是確定有這個條例送到行政院正在審議當中那麼也確定你們公開閱覽的是115年到117年的特別預算裡頭包括無人載具的部分是96億 是96億是不是如此"},{"start":418.913,"end":428.24,"text":"公務員報告就是說這個西式的無人機反制系統剛剛陸昕參謀長你講了現在正在一個公開徵求這個商情的一個階段"},{"start":429.622,"end":457.848,"text":"那至於其他所有相關的這些規劃我想我們必須尊重行政院那也一定會接受立法院的監督好 所以我們可以確定因為民眾要知的權利嘛我們可以確定115年到117年照你們的規劃特別預算是96億的無人載具的一個建制第二個也就是史上最高的特別預算應該是會超過一兆以上7年的編列是不是如此"},{"start":459.222,"end":465.334,"text":"我想還是等最後行政院的審議結果我們再對外公開跟還有跟委員來特別說明"},{"start":466.739,"end":492.644,"text":"董事長 我們談論過幾次我現在 你們什麼都講不清楚難怪民眾會感覺無所謂我們真正希望國家的安全再次強調我們絕對全力支持但是當你公開閱覽已經年限住民金額的時候你還是不願意跟民眾來說明清楚你們的進度到底是如何"},{"start":493.204,"end":507.14,"text":"我想這個應該有精進的一個空間可惜是無人機的反制系統是在我們規劃的這個特別預算的項目之一無人機的反制是在你的特別預算的項目之一是不是"},{"start":508.341,"end":523.628,"text":"是不是 所以也就是本席一再強調的7年1.3兆的這個預算項目之一 是不是我想還是提到這個金額的部分 我想還是有待行政院審議好 你不承認1.3兆沒關係 那是在這個你們規劃的範圍項目之一 是不是"},{"start":527.55,"end":556.473,"text":"依照公開的狀況 這個是我們有這樣的需求有這樣的需求 本席是請問部長本席是請問我們在討論的史上最高的特別預算這一個我們剛剛所說的公開閱覽的可西市無人機反制系統96億115年到117年是不是在你的本席認為史上最高特別預算的項目之一是不是 部長"},{"start":558.459,"end":578.631,"text":"報告委員剛剛部長已經說是我們的規劃內容但是我還是要重述這個條例要先過當然這流程我們談論過很多次了大家都知道流程對對對那部長是不是我再一次請教是不是在我們史上有可能是史上最高特別預算的項目之一"},{"start":579.691,"end":601.76,"text":"因為我們現在114年11月我們看不到你們送來的預算但是你在公開月欄裡頭已經有這樣註明是114年到114年是他的項目之一嘛我想我們會按照程序來合訂行政院審議合訂條例之後我們會送到大院來審議嘛那審議通過以後我們才能夠編列相關的預算嘛"},{"start":602.205,"end":617.203,"text":"所以在你的條例裡頭也有這一個也就是這個可吸式無人機的反制系統可吸剛已經講了這是我們的規劃的需求但是還要等到條例如果條例沒有辦法通過也就沒有這個預算的編列的可能性"},{"start":617.964,"end":636.539,"text":"好 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Eats加上胡扁打肉真的合併那個壟斷對整個"},{"start":229.171,"end":254.179,"text":"這個平台這個兩大平台如果真的造成壟斷的話對店家對外送人員對消費者都是有很大的衝擊的所以那天我們做成這個決議之後我在經濟委員會提出好幾次的這個質詢另外更重要的決議是什麼就是儘速要完成專法了所以時間也很有限我今天把台灣民眾黨的專法跟大家報告一下"},{"start":255.475,"end":283.892,"text":"第一個我們會擴大勞動保險的這個保障剛剛理事長在講啊有啊你們現在送完這個護編黨送出去了從業人員送完之後回程之後出現狀況怎麼辦現在都不納入嘛對不對所以台灣民眾黨的版本裡面明文規定外送平台要幫我們的外送員投保人身的這個保險跟財產這個保險而且外送平台的業者"},{"start":285.666,"end":300.602,"text":"如果在這個外送服務時間裡面他應該要能夠維持他保險企業的這個效率這個非常重要你看同樣 你說公車公車出去了公車司機你怎麼可能送他出勤的那個過程裡面不算只有上線的那個時間"},{"start":302.083,"end":328.608,"text":"如果從勞動條件來講這方面應該要去補強第二個我們要擴大對外送平台還有合作的這個商家還有外送員的企業的這個保障我們要求這個勞動部要這邊請特別看看要明文規定啊組織機關要制定一個企業的範本跟定型化的企業裡面來納管另外呢要好好去保障我們外送平台"},{"start":329.068,"end":350.194,"text":"跟合作的所有這個店家還有外送員互相之間他一定要有一個合理的這個前線跟義務第三個要怎麼來保障我們消費者潛力我們要求外送平台應該在客戶端要明確的你要把價格要標示清楚服務的這個費用還有印費 退費甚至整個退費的那個機制"},{"start":351.454,"end":369.043,"text":"整個都是要清楚 保障我們消費者這個權利而且要明定 要制定建立一個消費 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今年五月的時候我們一起在故宮南院這邊針對國保館的上樑典禮那天也是非常的熱鬧我想要請教院長的是說現在整個南院二期上樑之後現在整個工程的進度是否有符合你們的標準呢 期待跟標準"},{"start":43.867,"end":56.728,"text":"現在的工程進度的話大概48到年底的話可以到五成跟預定的工期來講的話大概微微稍微落後一點多"},{"start":57.648,"end":76.553,"text":"些微落後那這個供期部分還是希望可以趕快再把它補足因為整個南院現在對於國保館是充滿期待那我想要再請教院長那未來整個國保館的規劃因為我們知道他重視的是在國保的一個修復"},{"start":77.533,"end":92.658,"text":"那南院現在應該是說整個故宮現在針對未來國保館的啟用大概在後年就會啟用那我們現在有什麼早期的規劃嗎可能就是說國保修復這一塊到底未來要怎麼呈現給大家來看呢"},{"start":95.101,"end":119.951,"text":"南院的話最主要是有一個國保廳然後有一個數位國保廳另外的話有一個庫房那另外的話就是有一個修復室未來是一個修復中心所以在二館的話未來可以看到可見式的庫房就是你可以看到庫房後廠的一個狀況然後可見式的修復室你可以看修復的那個模擬的一個狀況"},{"start":120.731,"end":137.891,"text":"那这些修复师的人才要怎么进用修复的人才的话当然就是在南院的修复中心成立之后北院会有人员去支援那南院那边的话会有两个常驻的未来人力的话我们还是会视情况增加"},{"start":138.491,"end":165.732,"text":"那此外的話我們跟那個台南藝術大學的古物博物館跟古物修復中心跟那個政修大學我們都有簽訂那個合作的備忘錄未來的話我們會希望說故宮博物院南院的修復是成為他們的終極站他們畢業的學生的話可以進入到故宮的修復中心所以你現在說的就是我記得的我們南部有很多藝術大學甚至我們在地新港就有一家藝術高中"},{"start":167.513,"end":192.635,"text":"那这一些就是说这一些早愿意投入艺术的这些人才未来我觉得就是我们南院整个国宝那修复的未来人才可以来禁用的一个所在所以如果早一些你们现在用NOU让他知道说我可以去开始培养人才那新港艺术高中看能不能也加入我们故宫南院未来在人才培育端"},{"start":193.235,"end":207.902,"text":"讓他們也有這樣的一個機會我覺得院長這都是男院可以來做的事情我們跟新港藝術高中基本上來講也有簽訂合作備忘錄我們有一些合作的案子然後就是在進行中"},{"start":208.682,"end":215.509,"text":"好,期待,那我對南苑,老實說,我剛才看到我們的同事,我們這個劉蓋森的,他不是台議員,台議員可以亂批評的,我們故宮南苑在我們家裡是已經幾十年,事實上,這個參觀的人數破百萬,今年有破百萬嗎?"},{"start":231.945,"end":259.936,"text":"前天破百萬 今年也是可以破百萬嘛前兩年是都差一點點 前一年好像差四千人啦 有破百萬的有這裡的參觀所 主人就是有人要來看 怎麼可以讓他說什麼故宮南苑 讓他這樣說到一文不達去啦 不然我要打我們故宮南苑這裡 剛好彭子城處長在後面 最近有一些展覽"},{"start":261.357,"end":271.699,"text":"哇 大排長龍 包括這次的服侍會服侍會的展覽 哇 很成功的我真的看到 哇 這樣真的人排隊 要入口要入味是要排隊的最近就有這個 用這個導覽員 有用林志玲他的娃娃音就有這個晉級的巨人 他的這個聲優 叫做這個韋玉貴"},{"start":287.143,"end":294.631,"text":"他在那個晉級巨人那個主角艾連的聲音他的聲音來做這個導覽的一個聲音我覺得這個很有創意啊這實在很讚的啦這點我真的要告訴大家大家按個讚"},{"start":303.74,"end":327.17,"text":"很棒跟委員報告因為今年剛好南部碰到三個颱風如果那個三個颱風影響讓那個遊客就斷掉了要不然的話那個人數還會再增加是所以人數會增加但是我剛講的就是說這一些除了故宮國寶的一個演出之外我們可以再融合一些像現在用了林志玲當作華語的聲優這個"},{"start":330.031,"end":342.003,"text":"晉級的巨人艾連的聲優是日語的聲優 還有韓語的聲優未來可能也可以再把客語的導覽我們也來找一個比較好的人來做我們的聲優我覺得整個故宮是隨著時代故宮不是國寶而已 它也隨著時代的進步AI的導入 剛剛也有很多委員去講到了"},{"start":353.234,"end":377.304,"text":"事實上故宮導入AI之後也可以再創造更多的文創商品讓故宮不是來參觀而已來故宮是一個Fashion可以買到很多好東西的地方這樣好不好好 這一次甲子萬年的故宮鎮宴三寶到南宴去展覽的話我們就有意先去規劃文創商品所以這一次的話感得上"},{"start":377.987,"end":385.063,"text":"好 這文創商品就是符合年輕人的軌道我想一定會賣得很好好不好好 加油謝謝維恩謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}