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貨物稅條例使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查家庭教育法交教育職員化委員會審查電信管理法氣象法香港法交交通委員會審查自殺防治法老人福利法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查50委員陳超明等你具使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查51委員林德夫等你具民法交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2049.382,"end":2069.373,"text":"52至55委員吳清明等你去電信管理法 上崗法 氣象法 傳播法交交通委員會審查 56至61委員羅廷偉等你去電業法自來水法 天然氣 實業法交經濟委員會審查 電信管理法氣象法 上崗法交交通委員會審查 62至63委員丁學忠等你去使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查 老年農民福利津貼暫行條例交社會福利及溫環境經濟內政三委員會審查"},{"start":2072.455,"end":2092.541,"text":"六四委員張雅玲登議據 犯罪被害人權以保障法交司司法及法治委員會審查六十五至六十八委員洪孟楷登議據 貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查 電信管理法 氣箱法 香港法交交通委員會審查 六十九至一五四內政部 人事總署 外交部 國防部經濟部 農業部 金管會財政部 河岸會文化部 交通部 交易部"},{"start":2092.981,"end":2120.679,"text":"全訓部 整計部 衛福部 勞動部環境部 國發會 國科會 含重書面資料交相關委員會155-158 國防部內政部 韓維預算決議事項交財政及相關委員會處理國民黨黨團體 整列一至二委員 突圈機等擬聚 民法交司法 法治委員會審查 噪音管制法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查三至五委員 盧憲宜等擬聚 性別平等工作法 社會救助法 環境影響評估法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查六 委員敘徵等擬聚 民法交司法 法"},{"start":2122.1,"end":2147.101,"text":"7至8委員小林等旅區國民法官法中央行政機關組織基準法交司法及法治委員會審查9至12委員林倩琦等旅區外送平臺管理及從業人員權益保障法來政防止法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查原住民族健康法交社會福利及溫暖環境內政兩委員會審查刑事訴訟法交司法及法治委員會審查13至15委員張志倫等旅區使用排交稅法貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查民法交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2148.602,"end":2165.597,"text":"十六委員李燕秀等你去醫療法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查十七至十九委員徐巧興等你去疾安全衛生法外送平台管理器從業人員權益保障法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查二十至二十一委員萬美玲等你去貨物稅條例使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2166.838,"end":2187.376,"text":"六十二委員羅丁偉等你居公務人員退休之前輔具法交司法及法治委員會審查六十三委員黃建豪等你居民法交司法及法治委員會審查六十四委員洪孟凱等你居使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查六十五委員楊秋英等你居企業併購法交經濟委員會審查六十六委員李昆城等你居外送平臺管理及從業人員權益保障法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查"},{"start":2188.337,"end":2215.97,"text":"二十七委員王振旭等你去外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查二十八委員張雅玲等你去基安權衛生法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查二十九至三十一委員林俊憲等你去勞動基準法交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查七項法紀事法交交通委員會審查三十六委員林益錦等你去立法委員行為法交司法及法治委員會審查三十三委員沈博洋等你去香港澳門關係條例交內政委員會審查三十四委員李博義等你去立法院"},{"start":2218.291,"end":2231.96,"text":"三十五至四十七 委員郭國文等 委員沈博洋等 委員黃潔等 委員郭育群等 委員張宏祿等 委員張雅玲等 委員林月琴等 委員李博義等 委員吳秉瑞等 委員陳培育等 委員蔡玉等 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t":"好我們人數已足我們開會人數那各位委員我們今天協商的主題第一個部分是委員陳雪生等二十七人你具財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":1961.164,"end":1987.662,"text":"委員陳玉珍等17人拟據的《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一條文修正草案以及國民黨團拟據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一及第38條之二的條文修正案以上個案均為院會禁付二讀案現在交付我們財政委員會由我來擔任召委來做協商先介紹在場委員"},{"start":1989.043,"end":2011.109,"text":"首先介紹鍾嘉斌委員 謝謝林佩祥委員陳怡貞委員李坤澄委員 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝黃珊珊委員 OK那我們現在就進行協商"},{"start":2012.801,"end":2034.852,"text":"我們信那個列席官員 我們財政部我們莊翠園部長 歡迎部長國庫署陳柏成署長 歡迎還有我們行政院主席總署公務預算處邱碧珠 邱專門委員好 那我們現在就開始協商好不好那我們就坐在下面協商我想好不好 我們就不用坐要坐在下面嗎 還是這樣"},{"start":2036.583,"end":2044.077,"text":"主席我建議說請財政部座長比較近比較好講話如果主席不排斥也可以坐在這裡我們要下去嗎好下去好了 謝謝"},{"start":2064.346,"end":2065.446,"text":"來,就這樣來,就這樣"},{"start":2095.696,"end":2105.002,"text":"好那我們就依序先請提案的委員來做這個意見的發表好不好先請陳醫生委員做提案提案的說明"},{"start":2107.324,"end":2129.952,"text":"謝謝召委部長 署長還有各黨團的代表這一次的提案不管是本席所提的或是陳雪生委員或是黨團所提的當然還包括楊耀委員我們民進黨楊耀委員也是提案人因為主要這次提的這一條16條之一都是有關離島的部分"},{"start":2133.686,"end":2148.552,"text":"那離島部分我想在當初我們在主修採訪的時候這意思已經很清楚了當然不可能其他各縣市離島區跟他一起來這樣計算所以那時候事實上在後面解釋是可以看得出來我們的意思是離島來按照分配的保障的金額裡頭離島三個縣市按照自己的這個三個離島之間的比例來決定怎麼來分配這個統籌分配稅款"},{"start":2159.01,"end":2175.15,"text":"當然那時候秀的時候 產部也沒有說這樣是跟原來上一條是有好像不容易解釋實際上用解釋也可以解釋得出來從上下文 因為立法有時候每個字都寫到這樣的但是事實上從上下文也知道它的本意是什麼立法的原由是什麼"},{"start":2175.791,"end":2192.978,"text":"那既然說國土事件現在覺得有疑慮工人要依法行政一定要每個字都寫得很清楚的話那我們就來把它修正到每個字都把它寫進去那這樣就不會有任何的爭議那當然我們也有看到民進黨團有提出什麼離島的那些錢分配不了離島的那些錢"},{"start":2193.658,"end":2204.84,"text":"去做其他的社福包括坐月子什麼老人什麼國民年金還是什麼勞保什麼的我覺得民進黨提的這些社會福利都相當的好我也是也相當支持但是不要從離島人身上去刮這個肉來這樣這樣已經算是劫貧濟富你抓偏遠地區的人的錢來去做全國的這種分配這樣是劫貧濟富這些很好的"},{"start":2220.123,"end":2239.001,"text":"包括作業值的補助或是其他各項補助我們就另外再編列預算讓中央把它當作一個正式的社會福利來做這個我也支持原來屬於統籌分配稅款因為統籌分配稅款它的目的的來源不是在做什麼社福的分配是做各個地方的各項的建設分下去的時候各地方來做"},{"start":2241.184,"end":2262.743,"text":"這個還不是一般性補償跟計劃型補助款民進黨所提的那些補助作業是什麼我本席也是很支持但那些是一般性補償或你做計劃型補助款就像以前我在未還委員會擔任召委的時候提出這個不印證的相關補助這個是另外一件事當然也可以齊頭並進我們也支持那這個我們就讓它回歸到原來統籌分配稅款它的本意它的這個運用的目的為何我們來做"},{"start":2263.504,"end":2288.197,"text":"那三個 這裡有三個版本包括本席所主題的陳雪生跟陳毓森有提的楊耀有提的然後再加上國民黨黨團有提的我大概仔細看了一下我們 我是建議說財政部現在就站在你們專業立場就是說 來 這些檔案這些版本如何綜合起來是最有利就是最你們可以執行的啦不要說到時候又說這裡不清楚 那裡不清楚我們就在這一次把它討論清楚以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳醫師 沐委員"},{"start":2291.498,"end":2312.962,"text":"另外那個陳雪生委員還沒到陳雪生委員還有楊耀委員還有等27人的提案其實跟陳玉珍委員的都類似很類似就應該是完全是應該是意思完全一樣雪生還沒來我們現在就請那個國民黨團38條至2"},{"start":2322.91,"end":2325.133,"text":"還有38條之外 那私刑日期的問題啦提一下好不好 那個 沛翔講一下請 還是預證來講"},{"start":2343.922,"end":2363.73,"text":"原來的38條是說這個事情由行政院命令定制的因為我們看到我們在修財化法的時候第30條那個部分就是一般性補助款這些不能低於前一個年度但是我們後來發現在財政部不要說財政部行政院讓它一拖再拖的情況下這個前一個年度就會變得好像已經不一樣現在已經2025了本來我們2024的時候是不能低2023的年度的補助款"},{"start":2370.052,"end":2394.394,"text":"那時候 你們在2024就把它剪下來那2025不能遞2024等於整個都被剪下來玩這種數學遊戲我們是看得懂好像為什麼各地有在地方中也在反映說財化法修以後為什麼變得更少呢統籌分配款變多如果照我們原來修法的本意一般性不算跟計劃性不算它是不能減的必須不能少於2023年分配下去的延益因為我們那時候學的不能少於前一個年度30條那個"},{"start":2396.736,"end":2416.654,"text":"那個執政黨他就把2025再來2024的時候撥下變低然後說現在2025才要實施不能少於2024而且我們還沒有寫各縣市那一條我們到時候也會修清楚而且我們也要提出一般性補助款的法制化那這一條的本意就是38條提出的本意就是說如果因為我們這樣修正以後如果用行政院以"},{"start":2417.535,"end":2433.123,"text":"命令定之那很快的連江縣金門縣澎湖縣這些離島縣市很快就會遇到因為你們就會說那現在修過那等到行政命令到時候行政又不發布不弄命令總統發布以後他又不弄一些細節又不弄出來的話"},{"start":2434.369,"end":2440.932,"text":"那時候這些縣市馬上遇到財政很大的衝擊所以國民黨團才會明定寫書說什麼時候然後溯及104年3月21號這種理論上是不會提的"},{"start":2449.617,"end":2468.375,"text":"法條啦是因為行政院做出了這樣一種很tricky就是從中這樣上下其手才讓我們不得已只好把它明定化讓你們沒有再上下其手的空間真不好意思照說這種東西以前的話法律規定就往下做了現在政府還會說把它拖了拖了再改然後改內容再改這個所以造成"},{"start":2469.176,"end":2491.624,"text":"為什麼現在 然後再給錯誤百姓錯誤的各縣市錯誤的資訊說修了以後反而更慘這裡更少 那裡更少其實他們就是玩數字遊戲外面的老百姓也看不清楚我們在財政委員會我本身是早有看得很清楚所以我們要防止既然你們會我們修了這一條你們改那一條我們就全部全部修這個是這一條提出的本意大家理解修法的用意講得很清楚了現在請銀行長先發言老師"},{"start":2500.191,"end":2528.15,"text":"財政部要聽所有委員的意見完畢之後才來才表示意見好不好好不好這邊好不好是是你先對你先對這把你要先聽財政部的意見財政部剛才跟我講說大家表示意見完畢他再來做一個回答那民眾黨民眾黨黃山委員對這個提案請表達你的看法"},{"start":2529.915,"end":2547.568,"text":"我想這個現在是因為財政部把這些計算的方式可能就是對於我們原來立法的意志有一些誤解所以變成其實它是可以從本身就可以解釋的方式但必須變成我們要來做修法這是有點"},{"start":2548.628,"end":2569.427,"text":"好啦 既然要清楚就清楚吧那當然我們沒有要把離島特別故意去讓離島分不到我想這個是立法院的願意所以大概這個修正我們沒有特別的意見那我也覺得說《財化法》的修正還是一個最上位的問題也就是財政部一直不願意面對 那現在"},{"start":2570.508,"end":2582.722,"text":"已經兵臨城下然後自己現在才說要年底提版本我覺得還是一樣如果他們在年底提版本我們不希望再產生一次這麼大的衝突而是你要提什麼版本現在就應該來跟各黨團來做說明"},{"start":2585.565,"end":2613.44,"text":"今天只是這個公式的修正但是如果你行政院真的要對裁判法有自己的立場有更多的變動我覺得不應該再拖到什麼法案送年底年底前都不溝通現在坐在這裡也不溝通等到最後再拿版本出來到時候又是另外一種衝突我覺得真的沒有必要一年多前我們就希望看到行政院的立場到今天還是沒看到行政院的立場"},{"start":2614.585,"end":2636.53,"text":"好 謝謝所以民眾黨基本上對這兩個提案是沒有意見既然他們行政院沒立場就只好是我們的立場好 OK學生委員你有提案現在請陳院生委員對提案來做說明一下我們召委還有各位委員 部長 署長主要這一次五個分子的問題弄得我們連江縣馬祖"},{"start":2643.902,"end":2668.73,"text":"不但沒增加反而少了1000萬當然莊部長從善如流1000萬也補給我們了問題也只是打平打平以後後續的問題還更多現在很多一般補助款還有計畫型的一些補助款我們要繳50%要配合款50%這問題更大所以你現在即使給我的20幾億我去掉原來7億7"},{"start":2674.873,"end":2694.058,"text":"剩下的錢去預祝一般補助款還不夠所以這一次雖然我們聯鄉縣分得最少但是沒辦法因為財化法那時候很衝突的送出來了那麼我們也不要講誰對誰錯啦衍生出來了分子分母的問題"},{"start":2695.783,"end":2721.798,"text":"金門分的比較多澎湖第二澎湖分七十幾億很像我們就一點點不過我預算變不下去啦所以我有忍痛啊所以提出這個版本來這個版本我也跟部長啊部長很忙啊我昨天有打電話給你前天你沒回來我在想說禮拜天不好意思打擾你"},{"start":2729.72,"end":2733.643,"text":"今天楊耀維沒來我們金馬鵬現在剩下的還有300多億300多億這裡面金馬鵬的離島有2.5%的保障"},{"start":2750.708,"end":2779.75,"text":"我拜託財政部也好還有我們民進黨 民眾黨的同仁這裡面不是關我們國民黨的問題也有民進黨的問題所以這個案子我們協商能夠通過能夠讓我們把預算先編成 好不好 謝謝還有很重要一點就是還有因為你現在通過因為有四個月的問題所以我在法條裡面特別強調一個四個月以內"},{"start":2781.135,"end":2807.115,"text":"我們都也還算啦就回到從前嘛 是不是所以我也聽執政黨委員講說三百多億拿去做什麼用 做什麼用但這個已經三讀通過保障的東西啊你如果要用就把兩百二十億扣掉 還剩一百多億那其他縣市的我沒意見啦所以拜託各位大佬 前輩先去成全好不好我們民進黨的誰 中大人"},{"start":2810.157,"end":2822.107,"text":"還有陳大仁 李大仁 拜託你們手下留情 好不好好 謝謝陳委員那個嘉賓 那你們這邊就暫時先等財政部的意見的時候才表示意見 還是要現在是不是這樣還是現在"},{"start":2825.202,"end":2829.343,"text":"好 OK 那請部長先就這個提案做說明謝謝 謝謝昭緯以及各位委員剛剛的提示意見我想這一次的新版財化法在非常倉促的情況下通過都沒有經過相關的一個條文等等做實質討論之後財政部也分別就這次的問題都提出來包含垂直分配的問題也就是說財權去做了分配但市權沒有做分配 同時"},{"start":2852.167,"end":2861.614,"text":"擴大了中央統籌分配稅款同時要求一般性補助款不能減少這個事實上是在財政的分配上是造成了一個相當大的影響我想這在垂直分配另外水平分配的問題我們也了解到有不符條紀財政營需的原則而且擴大了城鄉的差距在這一次非常明顯的看出來因為把營業額零益利事業的營業額以及人口的指標合計加"},{"start":2879.967,"end":2885.292,"text":"加起來達到75%台北市光是盈利市的營業額所能獲配的金額比去年全年比114年可獲配的總金額都還要來得高所以這個造成城鄉的差距那另外就是分配公市的一個分母的錯誤我想剛剛陳委員已經講得很清楚"},{"start":2901.827,"end":2922.602,"text":"在這個離島這個部分尤其是馬祖連江縣受到的影響很大這是一個分母分配的錯誤以及分配公式的不明確包括怎麼樣的序位分法等等但是在這樣的一個法制之下財政部還有主動就是在這樣法制之下依照法律去做了分配但是因為法律這樣的一個規定所以連江縣他感覺他只能拿到了跟114年相同"},{"start":2928.326,"end":2942.294,"text":"那我們今天要講就是說整個財化法這個問題不是今天只修一個分配公司的分母就可以解決我們認為財化法還是要回到它的基本的一個精神它必須要能夠均衡城鄉 均衡台灣而且能夠真正達到調劑財政營運均衡區域發展"},{"start":2948.257,"end":2954.782,"text":"因此在院版這個部分我們也一直在討論而且在年底之前我們就會提出來我們希望提出來的財化法是一個可長可久的能夠真正達到財化法基本的精神讓整個台灣能夠均衡的發展然後能夠讓到需要財源的部分能夠讓它有保障的財源能夠發展"},{"start":2970.795,"end":2974.998,"text":"這個就是我們最主要會在年底之前會提出願版是一個可長可久而且能夠均衡台灣跟均衡城鄉的一個整體的一個修法的一個草案這以上那如果光修正一個分配的公式然後修正分母的話是沒有辦法解決問題這以上行政部門的說明好"},{"start":2995.564,"end":3017.223,"text":"是 那個部長講的每一句我都很反駁但是讓民進黨講是啦 部長的立場表達也很清楚了就是 要提出願板嘛所以從去年說到今年要等到願板出來再來這個做最後的一個你們的想法才會出來嘛沒有 沒有 他現在的意思是這樣我覺得很好好 那我覺得很好 你的想法你支持 OK來 現在請民進黨來"},{"start":3022.438,"end":3050.988,"text":"首先我們在先程序後實體不過在一開始先強調我們對於中央跟地方的財政分配尤其是地方在水平分配上不應該有離島跟本島而有所差異而且我們覺得不分離島本島都應該公平的對待這個我們絕對支持所以對於三個版本16條之一的三個版本包括國民黨黨團還有陳學生陳玉珍委員稱得上雙層版本"},{"start":3051.628,"end":3068.138,"text":"還有第三個是四個人的版本就是三黨共體版本我們都認為這樣的精神應該予以落實先要先聲明的那接下來呢我從程序上來做說明首先我們今天是根據立法院執行法第70條那麼由我們這個國民黨的這個林昭偉來召集"},{"start":3075.562,"end":3090.229,"text":"照說這樣的一個黨團協商其實不應該只是由財政委員會來派源我覺得應該院裡面應該有人來出席才對所以我這邊跟主席表達說如果今天只有財政委員會的"},{"start":3093.069,"end":3118.583,"text":"官员来可能是不够的那为什么呢为什么要提这个呢你看看我手上这一本立法委员手册是谁印的这是法治局印的法治局印的这本手册在113年的1月经历了去年我们包括立法院职权刑事法包括了我们的财政收支划分法都经历了很大幅度的修改所以我在上个月拿到了法治局印的这一本叫做"},{"start":3119.505,"end":3125.667,"text":"增補資料 就增補資料一看只有地質法 立法院職權刑事法"},{"start":3126.944,"end":3152.314,"text":"連我們目前在討論的所謂的我們的財政收支劃分法最新版本現在在使用的版本我們要修改的版本裡面複資缺乳所以我對第一個我是覺得在程序上我們手邊的法令法制作業有嚴重的不足怎麼可能對立法委員我們去年修改的這麼重要的法令郁真讓我講一下我現在在講立法院的事情就是說"},{"start":3153.234,"end":3181.759,"text":"今天財政委員會為主體那法治局置身事外法治局有人在場嗎沒有啊沒有人在場啊那法治局訂的這個徵補的手冊在哪裡在很遠很遠那他在那邊很遠我們都覺得我這樣講我對法治局的一個不滿希望他能夠傳遞上去給我們院長知道這個徵補手冊指徵補立法院職權行使法難道法治局不認為財政收支劃分法是我們立法委員很重要的法令嗎"},{"start":3182.719,"end":3211.512,"text":"我們有列在手冊裡面但是我們修改之後它的增補完全沒有放為什麼我提這個好像是在吹毛求疵不是 因為我需要看到說我們現在在討論的才化法結果我找不到最新的版本然後主席我們目前三個版本的對照表三個版本的對照表其實也應該提供因為委員會審查的時候有提供這個時候協商的時候要提供"},{"start":3213.267,"end":3228.855,"text":"要來提供這是程序上的問題因為我們今天這個事關重要所以我特別把程序上的問題拿出來好那接下來我才能進入實體來講因為如果大家手頭上沒有完整的法令那就我要來說明的情況就有困難我們先看雙層版"},{"start":3230.456,"end":3245.969,"text":"因為沒有做沒有手上邊有給我們一個條文對照表所以雙層板它的差別是什麼呢雙層板它就直接將去年財化法修法的缺漏它那個分母的它把它修正了這就是雙層板陳委員兩位陳委員雙層板是這樣子但是雙層板的內容"},{"start":3251.013,"end":3267.834,"text":"他沒有處理到說因為我們根據這十六條之一的第四項他必須在四個月前通知各該直轄市及鄉政府好鄉市政府來那換言之今天如果談論雙城板就算是把分母的錯誤更正了"},{"start":3268.695,"end":3281.854,"text":"它的效力是往后年不是明年为什么因为四个月前明年度的是四个月前对不对那现在我们修法呢这个对于明年度的已经没办法改变了"},{"start":3282.797,"end":3304.326,"text":"我們現在修法已經被他改變了所以四個月前的這個條文在雙層版裡面是沒有去處理的所以以至於縱使我們今天把16條之一的分母更正那麼只能往後對於明年在籌編後年的預算的時候才能夠把這樣的一個錯誤給更正我想主席很清楚我在講什麼因為沒有條文對照表我想這是雙層版"},{"start":3305.68,"end":3315.807,"text":"但是現在我們看到這個各檔版各檔版的時候它就開始加了它在第四項的部分本來是寫"},{"start":3318.306,"end":3339.753,"text":"沒有我想這個是四個人的版本四個人版本是在第二個版本第二個版本他有說他說前段之規定因修法而造成情勢變更則不受會計年度開始四個月前通知各該直轄市縣市及鄉鎮市政府之限制有做了一個補充了所以呢"},{"start":3340.919,"end":3362.07,"text":"各檔板我現在先講雙層板沒有處理到我們必須到後年度才能試用但是現在各檔板是有加了一個後段這個在第四項的後段跟第四項的前段它做了一個算是一個補充的說明"},{"start":3363.01,"end":3370.301,"text":"那老實說 我還是要老實說就立法體力上其實這樣的更動方式其實還是會造成說"},{"start":3373.297,"end":3398.627,"text":"這一個第四項的後段它只適用這一次的修法它純粹是因為上次的修法的缺漏造成說我們必須把第四項的前項前段排除而不受它影響我想我先做一個條文的比照 版本比照好 現在大家看我們國民黨黨團的版本它這裡面又進化了它這裡面其實它只做"},{"start":3401.757,"end":3423.233,"text":"16條之一 第三項的第幾款第六款 第六目他第幾款 第二款嗎第三款 第三款第六目他把上面說以上五目所稱之全部直轄市及縣市均應排除非離島進行計算"},{"start":3425.885,"end":3451.001,"text":"那麼均應排除非離島進行計算那這樣的做法呢他就不用在每一個條目上去做離島跟非離島的加注所以從立法的技術上他的修正技術可能更簡潔有力但是他有沒有去處理四個月或第四項的四個月或第五項的三個月的問題沒有他直接放在第38條之二"},{"start":3451.721,"end":3473.79,"text":"他直接从施行日期去处理他的施行日期的第二项说明什么呢他的意思说就是指这一条16条之一的最新修正呢他回溯到今年的3月21日起生效也就是原来我们现在手头上用的这个才化法生效的那一天起他回溯去生效所以我们发现是一个什么问题呢"},{"start":3474.37,"end":3502.566,"text":"我之所以花了這麼多的篇幅跟唇舌除了紙齋我們秘書作業的不足沒有把條文對照表跟我們最新的法規修增補給大家給各位看造成我在解說上的一個困難之外我努力的把這三個版本說明它怎麼修的雙層版修了分母可是沒有對於明年度的預算因為來不及在今年度四個月前提出那明年怎麼辦"},{"start":3503.715,"end":3522.985,"text":"沒有解方各黨版 跨黨版它有解決這個問題它解決的方式是直接在第四項當中的後半它直接加上說這次的修法就不受到前段的限制這個從立法技術上它是一次性的條文設計這樣的條文設計會造成我們整個"},{"start":3525.994,"end":3540.63,"text":"財政收支劃分法它在整個表達上的體力居然有一個我不敢說是盲腸啦但是只用一次只用一次那至於國民黨的黨團版呢它更簡潔了它在那個第六幕後面呢增加了這樣的一個"},{"start":3542.348,"end":3561.897,"text":"更正之后解决了分母错误的问题但是他同样的在第38条之二他弄了一个第二项那第二项也只是解决这次修法发生的问题那为什么我这样的一个不嫌累赘的跟大家说明呢就说明一个事实"},{"start":3562.83,"end":3590.446,"text":"一個財政收支劃分法在去年的倉促的一個修正當中不管各黨他所堅持的原則方向如何但是最後他出來的結果就是剛剛財政部長所說的就是有些缺失就是沒有周延簡單就不夠周延那不夠周延的結果我們要用三種版本來修正所以我今天是一個很誠懇的呼籲也是對財政部對行政院提出呼籲"},{"start":3591.767,"end":3607.886,"text":"應該要一個完整的配套版本出來才不會讓我們這樣子挖東牆補西牆顧了前面顧不了後面事實上我們黨團過去對於行政院過去沒有辦法提出財政修正化分法全套的一個"},{"start":3608.666,"end":3631.073,"text":"更新版來呼應在野黨的呼求我們是覺得在職責上是有所欠缺因為行政部門應該因應著我們立法院尤其是朝野各黨尤其是在野黨是國會最大多數應該是要盡責的把我們國會提出的各種方案要有個彙整"},{"start":3632.305,"end":3652.252,"text":"行政院財政部沒有提出我們認為已經是非常的不足了現在有沒有補救之道現在我們聽到補救之道是說葛奎在總諮詢的時候有回應說是要在12月底之前提出我們黨團也認為越快越好甚至我們希望說在11月要提出"},{"start":3653.089,"end":3670.238,"text":"因為如果11月因為我們這是預算會期我們這是預算會期那照說預算會期是以總預算的審議為主但是我們這裡在座各位我們心知肚明今年我們要審明年度的總預算困難度比去年審今年度還要大為什麼"},{"start":3670.919,"end":3684.494,"text":"因為財政收支發放法這個問題不解決我們對於明年的總預算怎麼去支用 怎麼去分配一定很難達成共識所以我們今年的總預今年對於明年度總預算的審查"},{"start":3685.612,"end":3707.615,"text":"不得不要回到財政收支劃分我們是不是能夠有個行政院版統合我們各黨團各委員的主張有一個大家折衷妥協後的共識版本如果沒有那個版本通過我們後續的明年度的預算審查很難滿足大家個別的需求"},{"start":3708.171,"end":3723.672,"text":"因為這裡面會有很多數字的調整難不成我們總預算擱在那裡然後我們才好通過然後才好通過之後我們還要回去看總預算是不是因為這樣的調整空間之後各地方政府有增加出來的備份配款"},{"start":3724.233,"end":3746.804,"text":"他們也要進行他們明年度的預算審查那我們中央也要開始財政部要重新提出讓我們把這個預算調整才能送出去所以我認為如果行政院等到12月才提出院版的財化法的完整的配套的修正我覺得太遲了這會嚴重的影響到我們本院對於中央政府明年度總預算的審查的一個基礎"},{"start":3747.602,"end":3772.584,"text":"所以我在這裡是很誠懇的呼籲我們各黨的代表各黨的代表我們是不是說要求財政部趕快將行政院版的財政收購方法的一個草案 完整草案是你們諮商過各地方財政局處他們的意見也代表著各地方縣市首長他們對於中央在財政上的挹注的需求把這樣的版本提出來"},{"start":3773.405,"end":3801.409,"text":"不然的話我們今天解決了16條之一不管採用哪個版本它在立法的體力上它都沒有辦法很完整的去處理只處理到哪裡只處理到我們離島這三個縣所因為分母錯誤所造成的缺漏其實我這裡最後一點我要建議跟學貞兄還有跟郁貞兄還有國民黨團提出來的這個郁貞姐對不起不是郁貞兄那個"},{"start":3802.762,"end":3821.196,"text":"就是說其實為了明年度總預算離島因為父母錯誤而減少貨配的統籌分配稅款不全然只能單休16條之一其實我這裡也提出因為院長手中 卓院長手中還有一個他的統籌還有院長的統籌"},{"start":3824.264,"end":3851.621,"text":"那是不是我們這邊也可以有一個想法是說如果說我們財化法可以有完整的處理那麼後年度的預算的籌編就可以用新的財化法去完整的去籌編那明年度離島三縣因為分母錯誤所造成的不足我們是不是請行政院利用院統籌的部分來予以強化我真的是這樣我自己老實說我在澎湖有服務過"},{"start":3852.83,"end":3868.471,"text":"我真的在澎湖服務過超過一年多那麼離島我想不分連江 不分金門 不分澎湖其實都應該跟本島的民眾享有同等受到中央資源挹注的權利這點我絕對支持"},{"start":3869.38,"end":3885.5,"text":"但是我是覺得說這樣的一個彌補的方式如果只用單修16條之一的方式可能會造成一個固此失彼的現象比較沒有全面性的關照其實我個人是比較支持說全面性的來看待"},{"start":3886.221,"end":3913.653,"text":"到底中央統籌有沒有合理的在垂直的分配上有沒有合宜的給予地方應有的挹注因為有多少錢辦多少事過去地方政府常常捉襟見軸就是因為或制的中央統籌分配太少這個我來自於地方政府我也認為是這樣所以今天有這個機會全面性的來檢討垂直的分配怎麼樣中央跟地方在事前事全"},{"start":3914.383,"end":3942.117,"text":"怎麼樣一致性的調整我們全盤現在來檢討或許在這樣檢討之後我們離島三縣能夠得到的資源的挹注可能遠超過我們單休16條之一我真的很誠懇的這樣提出因此我覺得今天是不是說有三點第一個我希望行政院部長在這裡可不可以幫我們爭取11月底前將行政院版的裁判法能夠送到本院來這是第一個"},{"start":3943.075,"end":3957.659,"text":"第二個我們希望如果說我們沒有辦法在今年來不及去處理因為去年的修法的分母造成明年度離島三縣市因此而減少的統籌分配我們希望能夠從行政院的院統籌來予以彌補"},{"start":3959.76,"end":3985.045,"text":"第三個我們希望我們黨團超越黨團有個共識如果行政院在11月底前將這樣的一個完整的裁劃法結合各地方政府的需求送到本院來我們是不是可以快馬加鞭趕緊的將這個裁劃法讓它有一個健全的可長可久的一個完整的修正這樣子我們在後年度的預算籌編"},{"start":3986.064,"end":3995.689,"text":"才會有一個比較穩定的基礎也不至於說如果說了我說推翻不講了如果我們這個財化法今年送來了休息之後結果又要回溯生效"},{"start":3997.096,"end":4018.541,"text":"那明年整個地方政府怎麼大亂啊好不容易明年度我們中央政府總預算以及明年度地方政府所獲配的統籌分配稅他們翻到地方要去審預算囉現在各地方議會也要審明年度預算了嘛所以其實明年度中央跟地方的大概都是大抵定了我們現在努力的把後年度的預算怎麼分配先顧好"},{"start":4019.701,"end":4048.838,"text":"那這樣的話那明年度的這些缺肉我們建議再次重申用院統籌去做一個補救以上三點建議第一行政院趕快送彩畫法第二離島三縣市因為去年修法的分母的錯誤所造成不足院統籌來彌補第三我們朝野各黨共事趕快在年底之前將彩畫法做一個可長可久的妥善的一個修訂以便於我們後年度的預算可以如期的在明年"},{"start":4049.578,"end":4075.859,"text":"獲得分配跟審查 以上好那個 等一下那個 醫生等一下等一下那個現在這樣為那個民進黨團那個嘉賓他們的意見充分表達我想也提出很好的建議就那個11月底以前快馬嘉賓我想參不應該心裡有一個復案了吧這可不可行這個部分你先答覆一下是不是有有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":4077.062,"end":4089.728,"text":"第一個就是我想剛剛中委員提了很多其實財化法真的是希望就是說不管你是身在離島 身在本島我們的國民都能夠獲得基本的一個公共服務這個就是財化法基本財政營需要去調劑的有些不是有這麼好的財政收入所以這個部分我們會快馬加鞭因為財政部也開了四次的會議最近又再開會找地方政府來談"},{"start":4104.054,"end":4109.358,"text":"那另外就是事權相關的一些調整的部分那涉及到整個調整那院裡面也都積極在做所以我們也是以我們會以11月底為目標來加快提出草案那第二個剛剛中委員所提到的有關用統籌來彌補這個彌補離島的部分我想這涉及到這個主總的支出的部分可能要由主總來說明有沒有這樣的一個可能性那大概在草案法的部分我們會統籌"},{"start":4131.352,"end":4144.656,"text":"以後然後跟院裡面提報主席總書來說明是不是因為涉及到支出的支出的調整也就是說他另外要就是說那個因為他要另外從另外一筆錢給離島這個部分說明一下這個部分我們可能還要就剛剛那個建議就是說有我們"},{"start":4155.049,"end":4178.241,"text":"院統籌來去做今年的 明年的離島三線由院統籌的款來去做彌補這部分我們可能還要回院裡面去做討論然後奉偵測指示再來執行還要研究研究多久 研究多久 快一點先請德夫"},{"start":4182.829,"end":4204.69,"text":"我想有關於財化法其實這個也數十年都沒有成功來修過法那歷屆的立委們其實也提出很多修法的需求跟必要性每每要涉及中央跟地方錢跟權的分配那行政院不是程序拖延不然就是迴避話題"},{"start":4206.446,"end":4222.782,"text":"事實上實質三十多年來的舊的財劃法早就失去了它整個客觀以及它的公平性本席我是從第五屆就進入立法院來服務二十多年來"},{"start":4223.883,"end":4248.431,"text":"可以說裁划法 修法總是差你們一腳好不容易終於去年在新法刪讀但卻出現了行政院主張新版的裁划法分配的公式的三項爭議似乎企圖來抹黑新版裁划法的修法的必要就本席來看"},{"start":4249.631,"end":4255.239,"text":"婚配公事 婚母爭議並不是無可回復的瑕疵"},{"start":4256.877,"end":4283.302,"text":"只能說修法過程中行政院跟財政部並沒有來表述並且發現法律文字未來執行上的細節以至於在修法後反而變成漸劣新習拿著計算公式的分母真立要放大整個修法的瑕疵來企圖影響整個大眾所以說本席認為"},{"start":4285.899,"end":4294.546,"text":"這個行政院跟就是財政部這方面你們應該要趕快做處理不要再拖拉以上 謝謝"},{"start":4296.587,"end":4318.62,"text":"好 謝謝您的副委員陳醫師委員要做補充沒有 他講完再來你先講 我先講我先講好 醫生先舉手你先講沒有 因為我講過了你可以先講好 那我來醫師講完換昆城我來回復我來回復中嘉賓委員的這個發言那當然針對整個修法我來講一下事實上這個財化修法這個我們財務會非常的善意從去年的6月"},{"start":4319.56,"end":4348.575,"text":"做結議說三個月內讓九月那時候已經還是羅明才擔任召委的時候說給你們三個月那時候也說三個月你們提出院版你們遲遲不提出來當然這不是財政部的意見是院長說什麼現行的版本就是最好版說你們也不能忤逆執政黨這個我們也理解好那你們不提出來我們提出來在整個修法過程中並不是衝突通過開過好多次會議民進黨上來一直講哪裡不好哪裡不好哪裡還找個各縣市都來了然後最後民進黨就是不願意討論他們是以拖待變他們那時候"},{"start":4349.335,"end":4373.933,"text":"民進黨中央中心目標就是不願意修法我們看得很清楚對這個才是真正的這個真正的原因並不是他們真的想要民進黨並不是想要修法他就是以拖待變好所以我們就是人數多數過了以後他就開始執政黨照說這個幾個公視上的東西不所謂所謂公視上的東西你們解釋什麼都是可以的是你們就要找出這樣的東西說所以你們充實通過反而怪罪在"},{"start":4374.893,"end":4394.11,"text":"這個修法的身上然後還把一般性主計師這邊還把一般性不太不同我剛講過 又把它減少造成好像還造成說好像個性是變少的這個問題只是依照修法內容個性是一定是增多的好 那我們來講剛剛回到鍾嘉銘委員剛剛說的幾點都說得很好 高大上但是我們務實的來看"},{"start":4395.971,"end":4419.054,"text":"現在今天這個兩黨 三黨今天草野 應該說草野會走到這個地步就是信任度不夠他現在都說得很好這個好以後我們給你什麼如果到時候沒給你能怎樣呢所以你要說的話我們要怎麼樣把東西為什麼財政收支方我們要把它法治化就是這個原因第一個他說這三個版本沒錯本來每個委員就會有自己的版本所以才會有這個"},{"start":4419.935,"end":4436.048,"text":"出委員會以後才會有這個協商的機制嘛協商的機制就在這裡我們把各個委員的版本的好的部分提出來不足的部分補上去比如說像本席的版本為什麼寫到每句都寫到離島三縣市而我們黨團版本只寫到最後一句因為你不知道到時候出來以後什麼離島的話民進黨會不會說離島不是只有金門馬祖澎湖啊這個什麼那個"},{"start":4443.354,"end":4458.606,"text":"屏東也有離島 哪裡也有離島因為離島經驗條例離島是韓國很多到時候他又給亂解釋所以我們才會把離島三縣市寫在每一句裡頭這個就是防小人 沒辦法因為他們會解釋到這樣我們只要一句一句都要寫進去不厭其煩的告訴他離島三縣市就是指金門 馬祖 澎湖"},{"start":4460.666,"end":4482.049,"text":"這是防他們到時候又說這個離島不是只有金門馬祖澎湖這個是我們會寫到這麼仔細是因為這個關係不是說好像寫得很最智很多而是沒辦法你如果不這樣寫到時候你不知道他會有什麼樣解釋這個就像我剛說一般性不穿那個三十條那個裡頭一樣所以第一個我們寫得很仔細我本系列版本是很仔細接著呢"},{"start":4483.428,"end":4507.836,"text":"陳學生委員領先的這個版本就我們剛中委員所說的各檔版這個是補這個就是說四個月以前的他也寫得很仔細 也是怕有意外到時候主計總署又說這個不行 那個不行什麼檔團就更完整把這個幾年幾月幾日就直接再寫進去所以我覺得三個版本綜合起來就是最好的版本把每一個有可能他們會做手腳的地方都把它補足"},{"start":4509.036,"end":4535.663,"text":"在有關離島的這個部分不讓執政黨到時候解釋有任何坐手腳的空間所以今天要討論也試試看如果這個三個版本綜合以後你們還有哪一句解釋覺得可能會有其他的解釋空間你們要告訴我們那我們要把它修好我們立法就是補這個把所有的漏洞補上這個是這個就是所以今天為什麼要為什麼要這樣的協商也是這樣子謝謝我們這個宗家編委這樣提出來所以我們就把三個版本綜合起來把每一個都填進去這個第一個第二個"},{"start":4538.244,"end":4543.587,"text":"來 這綜合版本第二 它的所謂第六目那個我剛剛已經解釋過下一個撥款機制的問題剛剛這個莊嘉斌委員也說得很好他說好 現在因為哪裡不夠哪裡不夠那現在比如說現在比如說我們財政部先把臨江縣缺的10億補上至於這個"},{"start":4556.734,"end":4578.204,"text":"統籌分析法各地方的這個就是叫做自籌款那個不夠的部分我們還要修財政收支方法財政分級法分級那個是主計總署的我們要把它法制化不是你們今天說10%第5名10%第5名的是10%今天突然變成50%沒有一點制度隨便隨你們解釋這個東西我們也提出來要把它法制化"},{"start":4580.305,"end":4602.876,"text":"財政分級 五級 四級 三級 兩級 一級應該自籌款比例是多少 把它法制化一般性不管 未接法制化大家都把它法制化 就不會有爭議今天執政黨是藍還是綠 還是白都不重要 它都不會說因為不一樣對不同的政黨之間按照顏色做出不同的這種自籌款的要求這樣才是達到完全的公平"},{"start":4603.436,"end":4626.295,"text":"那中間委員說得好那因為這個說2025已經在審2026的預算我知道各地議會在審了那如果你錢現在下來明年不是不能做追加減啊好就算中間委員提出一個善意說那把它變成2027統一給用院版的這個統一來給統籌分配款用行政院的統籌分配款來給我知道這個錢因為沒有公視沒分配下去國庫署聽一下國庫署"},{"start":4628.517,"end":4646.951,"text":"中委你聽一下因為你剛剛提的那個有一個這個東西要注意國庫有說那個統籌分析稅款因為這個公司現在公司這樣子不修的情況下這個錢是分不下去的也是留在國庫裡是不能撥到別的地方的對吧上回你們我看媒體報告是這樣講不能就不能留在這裡不能往東也不能往西就"},{"start":4647.932,"end":4659.201,"text":"卡在那裡 就停在那裡 不要說卡在那裡那停在那裡的話 您的意思是說好2027用願來分赤給大家不是不好的主意啊問題是我怎麼知道2027你會不會照做呢你要在哪一條裡頭跟我寫說你這個錢在2027撥下來你寫出來啊因為現在朝野就是沒有戶信嘛你說的都很好很好 美麗的夢想寫下來"},{"start":4669.329,"end":4691.396,"text":"文字寫下來 你說你這個建議我也覺得不是不可以思考你寫說哪一年 哪一月 哪一日多少錢用按照現在的就是你也支持離島 這些個錢比如說剩345億 離島有220億每一個縣市按照現在的分配的公式算出來金門 馬祖 澎湖在哪一年 哪一月 哪一日這個中央要從哪裡撥錢下來這個東西白紙黑字寫下來"},{"start":4693.777,"end":4709.256,"text":"因為大家都知道如果你還沒給先先你都說得很好聽現在有法通過的我舉例有法通過叫做這個警察的那個什麼退休人事條例35條軍人加薪法律都通過你們都還不做你還跟我發說以後說2027會給你現在欠以前2027全部給你你覺得離島的居民會這麼容易受騙嗎"},{"start":4714.062,"end":4738.955,"text":"你們要覺得 我覺得你的建議很好啊問題是 如果今天行這個樣子的事情我覺得有可能啊 你現在講的我相信你說明會做到我也不知道啊 2027不知道是怎麼樣啊然後你們講的是不是算數呢有沒有白紙黑字呢 怎麼執行呢或者你要先付我們多少呢幾月幾號你給我們多少呢這個都要講啊 我們連白紙黑字通過警察 人事條例跟軍人加薪你們都可以不給了 這種東西依法的我們如何會有信心你2027會給我們錢 2026不給說我2027再來給你"},{"start":4741.596,"end":4765.517,"text":"我覺得這個太遠的那個夢想很不能期待啦好 謝謝陳一芝委現在請李坤澄召委謝謝市民召委其實大家今天這個財務法的修正大家把時間拉到去年三讀通過那個時候去年是12月20號通過大家知道12月20號通過那個場景是怎麼樣"},{"start":4766.758,"end":4785.678,"text":"非常匆匆忙忙的通過不只是財劃法 限數法然後還有選罷法都是在12月的時候當天通過的那個場景大家都知道了這個不用再去贅述所以匆匆忙忙的修法就造成說現在有這個對於離島的影響不管是離島還是本島都是中華民國國民"},{"start":4786.679,"end":4798.995,"text":"我們當然希望說這個財化法的修法本來應該要對於財力比較弱的縣市能夠因為財化法的修法得到比較多的一些支持但是因為現在出現問題了我是覺得說"},{"start":4803.01,"end":4827.868,"text":"這次的修法16條之一都是屬於一次性的修法那一次性的修法只是為了彌補說上次的修法的一個缺失那剛剛這個部長也有提到說希望能夠在11月底把這個原本的財務法把它弄出來那所以我是在這邊想說我們跟市民召委我們剛好這兩個這個會期我們兩個是召委我們就要求"},{"start":4829.391,"end":4849.221,"text":"這個財政部我們就把這個願版的財劃法在11月底要送出來然後這個是比較完整的就是不是一次性的修法那也把這個力道所關心的這個統籌分配款的分配的這個模式再把它寫得更清楚一點所以我是在這邊建議說是不是我們就等願版的"},{"start":4850.241,"end":4876.959,"text":"這一個原本的才化法一起出來一起來做討論會比說這一次只有單一式的修法修完之後整個才化法還要再修我覺得這個是曠日廢時所以我們就具體要求送出來一起來好好的修這樣子這部法就會比較可長可久了不要說"},{"start":4877.939,"end":4903.589,"text":"因為剛剛嘉賓委員他是很好意把三個版本的不足部分都把它舉出來了所以我是認為說既然都還有不足的地方那不如就等這一個院版的財化法出來之後我們大家一起來討論也請我們在野黨的朋友我們就大家一起來支持我們一定會要求那就是11月底一定要送出來如果11月底沒送出來你們要過你們就過"},{"start":4905.23,"end":4926.342,"text":"所以我覺得這個他的建議很好坤城委員建議很好那所以我們這個就綜合起來我們把他送出去然後也是同步等他嘛送出去以後一樣可以等他嘛他不做我們就往前走了是一樣嘛沒錯啊不是啊 我們就送在送在朝一夕陽等他嘛不是啊 那個坤城兄剛才那個剛才嘉賓委員嘉賓委員講的是很好啦我都聽下去了"},{"start":4933.48,"end":4958.738,"text":"問題跟陳玉珍委員講的我們怕被騙啊所以要白紙寫黑字啊你看以前財化法要院版提出來院版一直都不提啊黨版你們黨團版本也沒有嘛對不對那現在就是說今天這個案16條之一是亡羊補牢啦亡羊補牢你這個案沒讓他過比如像嘉敏委員講說哎呀怎麼樣院長有什麼他依法他沒有參據嘛沒有參據的話這個到底錢給誰咧"},{"start":4963.271,"end":4989.142,"text":"你不能要一百要三百要五百要提出一百個案兩百個案不可能的事情所以我是說雙成版這個十六條之一我的版本先讓他過追溯四個月因為我們現在預算已經編了我們的稅務預算是虛的不是編七億我們編二十二億我們編虛的先編上去了因為等著十六條之一要讓他通過通過以後"},{"start":4991.325,"end":5019.314,"text":"那你財政部才有所遵循嘛好 我再回頭講江明委員剛才講的事情明年省預算怎麼省 這很重要現在行政院各部會對各縣市政府所有的一般補助款只給一半只給一半的意思表示你所有在施政計畫進行中的一些比如說建築及設備再蓋房子的部分你只給一半"},{"start":5020.1,"end":5043.813,"text":"那要縣政府拿錢出來 它拿不出來啊它拿不出來怎麼辦 就爛尾樓 就停擺所有的工程 河川什麼道路什麼 全部都停擺那你這樣的話怎麼辦呢你一定逼得反對黨要提修法嘛反對黨要去修法修法說你不得低於過去的多少多少多少提出來 又亂了又搞亂了"},{"start":5046.465,"end":5071.641,"text":"剛才嘉明委員講的我們不一定要這個什麼統籌分配這個才化法嘛為什麼要反對黨來搞這個呢你財政部弄一套可長可久的你不要今天殺反對黨的也不一定殺到反對黨啦這個都一致全國各縣市都也有綠的當縣長嘛對不對你全部殺的結果綠的也挨挨叫藍的也挨挨叫叫苦連天當然現在藍軍這個縣市市比較多一點"},{"start":5075.819,"end":5104.457,"text":"所以你這問題沒辦法解決啊那勢必造成反對黨這邊明年省預算你給地方政府給一半對不對你補助款一半補助款給一半我就殺你一半你還是沒錢啊你說地方要配合50的部分你得到什麼便宜你得不到便宜我一樣把你殺掉啊一定砍嘛就砍的是理直氣壯的砍啊這個沒有意義嘛是不是那至於這一次"},{"start":5106.34,"end":5132.192,"text":"這個國民黨民眾黨提出來的版本這個財化法當然會有一些不公平我是說你財政部可以弄更公平的東西出來啊是不是 江泓委員講的你在十一月底還不是十二月你十一月底就要弄出來因為我們代表委員都在審預算啊是不是還有你電視上不停的報說什麼什麼什麼那個平均統三什麼百分之三是不是現在"},{"start":5134.652,"end":5161.205,"text":"統刪3%造成你們什麼水電費不足啊 衛生紙都沒有啦現在我們省預算不這樣刪了不給你來什麼統刪了一樣一樣來 搞個一萬多件出來一樣一樣來就沒有什麼衛生紙衛生紙 汽油 房租一定通通給你保留好好的是不是啊 給你保留好好的那這個你殺我的牛 我殺你的馬這個中華民國政府這樣子在鬥爭不停的"},{"start":5162.421,"end":5190.542,"text":"我不是講說你們在逗我們就我們逗你好了也逗來逗去嘛是不是你逗來逗去的結果是老闆贏之福嗎不是啦所以部長我覺得剛才江北委員很不容易吐出來了你們要休這邊也在注意因為大家已經發現這樣的問題了嘛那今天這個雙城的16條之一啊有關追溯4個月你一定要追溯你不追溯的話我們已經停擺了政務停擺啊"},{"start":5191.55,"end":5220.035,"text":"你中央政府還在執政 縣政府已經倒了縣政府已經倒了所以你現在就是說 就還原嘛 還原嘛國民黨黨法裡面最終來的一條就是後面第38條之二嘛 是不是 38條之二嘛這個生效嘛那後面呢 你們有休的話可以做一個政黨協商 黨團討論我們把問題提出來 把問題解決你現在 你看我錢拿的少我錢拿的少 我還提版本咧"},{"start":5221.052,"end":5243.647,"text":"我提版本 金門拿110 澎湖拿7、80我就22 22你現在又砍我的一般補助款我們蓋縣政府大樓 這一期要分別1億6 你只給我8千萬 剩下8千萬怎麼辦你叫縣政府出去搶劫嗎 去美國搶還是去英國搶這有問題嘛 不然到台灣來搶 所以這個有問題嘛"},{"start":5247.143,"end":5274.626,"text":"所以我希望嘉賓委員剛才講的很好我都聽下去了因為我跟他從國民大會老同事一直到現在他腦袋是很清楚啦我們老同事非常久了所以拜託部長我也拜託民進黨同仁裴宇你也督導我們馬祖嘛對不對你督導我們馬祖他很謙虛啊他都叫我前輩啦那你也督導馬祖這個案子"},{"start":5275.495,"end":5288.605,"text":"我想先讓縣政府的現務運作能夠運轉那至於澎湖跟金門有多出來的部分那可能又在行政程序上面你們怎麼處理還是可以協調的啦就是我們先把這個幾個版本送出去然後反正送出去還要院長協商嘛對不對 先送出委員會嘛好 那最後這個黃先生委員"},{"start":5306.027,"end":5325.933,"text":"所以主委我想剛剛大家都講完了其實就是我們先出去反正11月底有版本就有版本沒版本我們就自己過了所以也不用再等來等去我覺得這樣比較簡單而且都已經大家都沒意見了內容應該其實出去連協商都不用就直接大家簽一簽以後也不用再吵了OK 那個好 那傑斌 來"},{"start":5329.19,"end":5350.722,"text":"我們同事我就說老實話因為我覺得這三個版本如果是以陳玉珍委員跟陳元委員的那個版本其實它在立法的體力上是最簡潔對於之前的分母錯誤也有修正其實可以大家一直支持"},{"start":5351.907,"end":5364.265,"text":"那個版本比較單純就是我現在拿這個版本上面有那個我們陳玉珍委員還跟陳雪生委員不是這個這個的雙層版因為因為他在沒有沒有"},{"start":5365.84,"end":5385.118,"text":"但是我想的這個提案因為這三個版本是不一樣因為為什麼 抱歉主席為什麼我說如果手上沒有一個條文對照表就可能我要描述的就會比較辛苦我現在再一次講一次雙層版因為它就是很清楚的在16條之一在去年修法的基礎式上修正了分母的問題"},{"start":5387.02,"end":5413.003,"text":"那這樣的一個從立法體力上來講這是最簡潔有效的方式那相較於另外兩個版本呢因為他們分別在38條之一或者是在第四項第五項做了一些文字的一些補充那老實說那些文字啊從立法上來講都是一次性的文字就是那樣的一個文字的內容呢只是處理什麼只是處理"},{"start":5414.284,"end":5435.618,"text":"我們這次修正它的適用期程我想學生兄我們老同事這麼久了其實我也是這樣或許我這個表示完之後可以我們休息個兩三分鐘或者五分鐘我們跟部長這邊私下有一些了解因為怎麼講我們現在無非的我知道今天我們離島不管是兩位陳委員還是位在場的楊委員"},{"start":5437.739,"end":5462.416,"text":"他們關心的是說因為去年倉促修法這個分母的錯誤影響到離島明年度他們獲至中央政府統籌分配的額度我們要想辦法把這個補救我也支持要想辦法補救不能讓離島的三個縣市因為去年倉促修法的錯誤去承擔他們獲配的這些中央政府統籌不足"},{"start":5464.837,"end":5479.446,"text":"什麼叫不足不足他明年想要推動的地方建設所以我是覺得這個要怎麼去彌補這是一個課題但是16條之一倉促修法的分母錯誤怎麼修正這是另外一個課題我是建議把兩個課題法律的歸法律"},{"start":5481.367,"end":5502.403,"text":"財政的歸財政法律的文字弄好了後年不會再有問題了當然還要考慮到我們接續財政收支的話還會再修那是一件事情那是整體的至少不會是個別的由離島的人離島的縣市來承擔我是覺得是這樣但是現在眼前看到的明年這三個縣市獲配的"},{"start":5503.428,"end":5527.963,"text":"統籌分配稅款可能不足以支應他們期待的地方建設那這個不足我是覺得行政院要出來解決我們把明年度三個離島縣市他支持地方建設不足的這些需求我們行政院來解決那我們今天在這裡純粹去修正去年修法的疏漏把這兩個分開來"},{"start":5529.924,"end":5542.447,"text":"因為如果說你通常要解決這兩個問題會造成另外兩個版本的一個最大問題是他們多了很多一些一次性的文字描述而那些一次性的法律條文以後都不會用到了以後都不會用到"},{"start":5543.542,"end":5562.457,"text":"所以我會覺得說從修法的立場來講我們可長可久我們更正去年的錯誤那明年度的所需求的有不足的部分我們請行政院來協助三個里導這是我的建議那有沒有可行性我是建議主席我們休息下來討論一下好不好"},{"start":5565.175,"end":5590.442,"text":"我那個補充那個一下就是說那中國委員會說支持我提出的這個版本然後呢 那很容易啊那就把那兩個部分放在立法理由裡頭補充說明啊這樣子到時候執行起來就有方向啊看這樣法治上可不可行啊就在立法理由就說今年什麼時候就要做什麼事情啊你說的是 我知道你說整個立法體力沒有辦法為一次性修法那你要在立法理由說明嘛說什麼時候決定什麼事情嘛你看法治上這樣是不是更可行啊"},{"start":5592.492,"end":5594.293,"text":"休息一下可以 我們休息五分鐘討論一下"},{"start":5622.739,"end":5642.294,"text":"我覺得因為"},{"start":5650.658,"end":5662.284,"text":"所以他們都講1900萬"},{"start":5671.142,"end":5672.203,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5693.152,"end":5708.842,"text":"今天在訪問"},{"start":5725.387,"end":5733.81,"text":"如果他們一種經驗完整的話這個等於是我把這個"},{"start":5750.562,"end":5759.391,"text":"還有一點東西"},{"start":5766.039,"end":5784.277,"text":"我覺得這樣,我們今天討論修法,如果你要把這些地方都通俗一點的話為什麼要寫時間,就是我們要確定怎麼會法律那如果這樣,我們就說什麼法律,因為我今天很承認,我們今天如果是修法"},{"start":5808.437,"end":5808.457,"text":"預算協調"},{"start":5809.318,"end":5817.268,"text":"这边是我们的主牌 这边是我们的主牌"},{"start":5819.54,"end":5832.063,"text":"因為我是表達我們爭議如果你的另外兩台送在那邊壓就是只有一個馬送你那邊你另外兩台送另外一台因為另外兩台跟這一個送在那邊壓"},{"start":5841.105,"end":5868.163,"text":"好,沒有,我會,我覺得說,好啦,好啦,還是,我是,師父很高興,還是在意,還是我們在,我們在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,"},{"start":5875.111,"end":5885.964,"text":"這個還是沒辦法達成共識好各位委員我想我們"},{"start":5887.334,"end":5903.625,"text":"經過充分討論我想大家都充分表達意見但是還是沒有辦法達成共識所以我們今天的協商16條之一還有38條之二我們均保留送宴會協商對 還要送宴會協商我們今天會到這裡我們散會"}]}},{"id":"17019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17019","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609bbb2b5b7949ecac81fc48310b441d33d914d0d15f34b2c0295da36539574a8715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第4會期第8次會議（事由：一、同意權之行使事項：本院交通、教育及文化兩委員會報告審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。（11月7日上午報告事項後）二、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。（11月7日下午及11日）三、11月7日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-11T08:31:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-11T16:55:00+08:00","duration":30220,"影片長度":"08:23:40","委員發言時間":"08:31:20 - 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謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":1821.155,"end":1844.055,"text":"部委員好 院長早安好 院長我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題啦我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子 前一陣子那個閃兵啦就是不想服兵這個問題啊 就是"},{"start":1845.956,"end":1874.113,"text":"新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以服兵役這一次這一件事情"},{"start":1874.864,"end":1899.238,"text":"沒有違憲的空間 不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有意難決的兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務"},{"start":1900.16,"end":1922.332,"text":"所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後"},{"start":1924.133,"end":1947.911,"text":"然後現在法庭 大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對 是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好 那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅 稅捐基增法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下 他申請"},{"start":1949.512,"end":1964.123,"text":"稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行他必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多"},{"start":1966.705,"end":1982.367,"text":"報告院長您也是法律系畢業的您也是檢察官出身的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦"},{"start":1983.268,"end":2006.357,"text":"我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件 我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好 那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以 請議院長採釋"},{"start":2008.238,"end":2022.034,"text":"繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽"},{"start":2022.935,"end":2050.18,"text":"那你一定要把憲法 我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階 好吧那就是院長因為委員透過質詢第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長"},{"start":2051.94,"end":2074.042,"text":"任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在您一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊"},{"start":2075.903,"end":2094.958,"text":"因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅出沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員"},{"start":2095.879,"end":2120.876,"text":"吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的意思錄記載得非常的清楚內政部 警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦"},{"start":2122.677,"end":2133.657,"text":"你有沒有指出實際的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦"},{"start":2134.977,"end":2160.744,"text":"第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張祺凱在那邊虧張祺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但是我要跟您講"},{"start":2161.624,"end":2180.267,"text":"你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務"},{"start":2181.388,"end":2189.301,"text":"一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分"},{"start":2196.756,"end":2217.033,"text":"是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊"},{"start":2218.376,"end":2243.286,"text":"院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置總統沒有提過兩次嗎"},{"start":2244.286,"end":2265.56,"text":"提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查"},{"start":2266.801,"end":2294.154,"text":"我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯形式上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都同意那是不是也黨議凌駕你可以這樣講嗎院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是"},{"start":2295.294,"end":2317.159,"text":"我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法"},{"start":2318.919,"end":2343.246,"text":"我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行我說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源所以你今天又變大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列"},{"start":2343.953,"end":2372.546,"text":"不是啊 你現在那個警察人員人事條例 軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕"},{"start":2373.706,"end":2401.998,"text":"依法行政我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違法的空間沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政"},{"start":2402.578,"end":2418.858,"text":"全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法易法對不對 二法易法 歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎"},{"start":2420.565,"end":2437.126,"text":"惡法 議法 你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你 不是啦我認為惡法我們必須就計我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系你都懂一句話叫做惡法 議法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員盡可以跟國民黨講惡法 議法但是在行政院不能違憲"},{"start":2441.343,"end":2464.928,"text":"院長 憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制"},{"start":2468.515,"end":2482.002,"text":"請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡"},{"start":2485.363,"end":2503.332,"text":"所以法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家"},{"start":2505.674,"end":2514.583,"text":"但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算"},{"start":2515.72,"end":2537.202,"text":"沒有我說的算 我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲 這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法 他就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做 很遺憾的"},{"start":2537.802,"end":2552.379,"text":"您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民"},{"start":2552.619,"end":2571.537,"text":"你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲"},{"start":2572.608,"end":2595.796,"text":"我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了你剛這句話就是違反你回去看條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做"},{"start":2598.285,"end":2618.737,"text":"我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡"},{"start":2619.457,"end":2634.635,"text":"不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做"},{"start":2635.556,"end":2652.417,"text":"我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做"},{"start":2653.118,"end":2676.7,"text":"所以我在這邊跟院長報告如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果您不...我在這邊講得那麼清楚您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟...懂法的人都非常清楚好沒關係這句話就你講你的我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事我自己同學在大學當教授他之前還是研究所所長"},{"start":2677.441,"end":2704.706,"text":"他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的"},{"start":2705.126,"end":2729.894,"text":"您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為他違憲所以事件中所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係"},{"start":2734.616,"end":2747.775,"text":"您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好 謝謝院長給我們這種化時代的憲政概念你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重"},{"start":2751.189,"end":2778.942,"text":"你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒錯沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長那您竟然說認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放請問一下"},{"start":2779.722,"end":2804.738,"text":"如果下個月就說合憲了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在合憲的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變"},{"start":2806.419,"end":2829.857,"text":"我現在發了 如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長 不是嗎不是啦 院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長 你不要"},{"start":2831.798,"end":2852.95,"text":"你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼"},{"start":2854.464,"end":2872.082,"text":"你現在說這筆錢那萬一下個月 下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來的及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是它必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論"},{"start":2874.143,"end":2889.749,"text":"我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯"},{"start":2892.335,"end":2908.849,"text":"我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話您也有至於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公道"},{"start":2909.93,"end":2933.034,"text":"你們要趕快做 如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息 怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙 然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣 因為我跟您說啦很多這些貸退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用"},{"start":2933.575,"end":2948.477,"text":"譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼"},{"start":2949.358,"end":2976.661,"text":"你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權利名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾"},{"start":2977.741,"end":3000.279,"text":"那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把"},{"start":3000.899,"end":3024.335,"text":"程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去"},{"start":3024.935,"end":3048.694,"text":"一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題"},{"start":3049.835,"end":3054.338,"text":"我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些那個特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對"},{"start":3058.515,"end":3082.987,"text":"這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防"},{"start":3083.707,"end":3102.39,"text":"我想請問一下大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求"},{"start":3103.411,"end":3123.772,"text":"那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對就是您剛講的嘛調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設、社福、醫療、教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民"},{"start":3124.312,"end":3147.14,"text":"我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買"},{"start":3148.26,"end":3166.497,"text":"台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為"},{"start":3167.762,"end":3188.435,"text":"等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦沒有到一半了不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧好那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員"},{"start":3189.235,"end":3217.644,"text":"光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療"},{"start":3218.924,"end":3246.734,"text":"能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來這今年是招生狀況最好的"},{"start":3247.108,"end":3256.319,"text":"因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實"},{"start":3258.269,"end":3284.192,"text":"軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行"},{"start":3285.493,"end":3306.82,"text":"之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為它是借錢"},{"start":3308.2,"end":3330.311,"text":"你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的剩餘都必須依法來"},{"start":3332.281,"end":3354.511,"text":"返還債務 這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務所以說您那類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍工教警消他們的待遇 他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨"},{"start":3357.689,"end":3375.923,"text":"這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍工匠我們卻一再的跟他跟他這樣子計較"},{"start":3377.344,"end":3392.281,"text":"我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎 我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續 世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量"},{"start":3394.042,"end":3412.435,"text":"國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎"},{"start":3417.398,"end":3429.542,"text":"但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力強化國防 國防的三個重要的面向人 設備 維護三者必須均衡很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認"},{"start":3431.758,"end":3460.644,"text":"三者必須均衡 國防的實力我看到的是什麼5萬塊買一張椅子 120塊買一瓶水那刪了50億我們爆料出來了 好像才刪了這50億但是這50億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟您講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠我們第一個考量的是財政實力啊我們的財政能力必須先考量啊"},{"start":3461.964,"end":3478.156,"text":"這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊"},{"start":3479.278,"end":3501.814,"text":"好啦 隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算 您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助 要不要再談租屋津貼"},{"start":3502.674,"end":3527.286,"text":"你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲"},{"start":3528.507,"end":3552.68,"text":"然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來"},{"start":3553.56,"end":3571.874,"text":"那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我的錯但是我想"},{"start":3572.974,"end":3577.877,"text":"時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決"},{"start":3595.586,"end":3622.781,"text":"那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考"},{"start":3624.022,"end":3641.375,"text":"好 謝謝兩位兩位辛苦了好 謝謝吳委員下一位我們請賴瑞榮委員賴委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報下一位請顏寬榮委員質詢"},{"start":3654.532,"end":3661.338,"text":"主席 各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院卓院長請卓院長備詢院委員好院長早"},{"start":3674.281,"end":3699.43,"text":"院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦"},{"start":3702.252,"end":3727.412,"text":"中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的燃煤電廠依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市排放大戶PM2.5排放占台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物占台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放占65.6%說了這麼多 我們就是要看到說"},{"start":3728.857,"end":3740.365,"text":"中火的燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有 全面的拆除計畫不要零星的 不要片面的"},{"start":3742.259,"end":3766.314,"text":"請部長能夠詳細說明我知道它是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組所以一個燃氣機組蓋好之後它會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了"},{"start":3768.121,"end":3783.632,"text":"2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計畫其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計畫應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計畫是不是這樣"},{"start":3784.66,"end":3804.522,"text":"八號委員我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的南美才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像時間就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始"},{"start":3806.229,"end":3827.372,"text":"在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機"},{"start":3828.973,"end":3853.124,"text":"偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊那另外新達電廠他已經除役了另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟了所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信我跟你講就是因為這些事件"},{"start":3857.806,"end":3873.113,"text":"還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表"},{"start":3874.394,"end":3891.66,"text":"基礎上來以後穩定以後沒有做嘛沒有做嘛2025現在已經11月了2022要來所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫"},{"start":3893.608,"end":3906.798,"text":"細部的 計畫怎麼做 請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034要往前拉你現在裡面有25 26 31 32 3334到2034年了 還那麼多年了中間有空了好幾年空檔 我希望他往前拉"},{"start":3920.734,"end":3939.826,"text":"你說的2025第一步機箱沒動2034年會達成完全無美但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講就是說你們這些騎乘這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾因為沒有看到作為沒有看到作為所以我們現在說了2025就還沒動2025已經快時間過了所以當初台電民眾的質疑就是說"},{"start":3947.97,"end":3962.532,"text":"用騙的去讓他們承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的"},{"start":3963.986,"end":3978.455,"text":"裝置當中只要新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所知要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃 計劃應該早就做好啦就是現在 新的燃氣機組"},{"start":3979.471,"end":4004.608,"text":"這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦 沒有啦那個是允許的 法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的"},{"start":4007.009,"end":4025.624,"text":"那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度"},{"start":4026.539,"end":4050.946,"text":"目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎"},{"start":4052.242,"end":4075.248,"text":"還沒有還沒有通過打算要送還沒送出去打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井沙鹿烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽到底安不安全所以說安全這個部分沒有發生意外過不是我跟你講"},{"start":4076.907,"end":4089.746,"text":"報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要"},{"start":4090.441,"end":4108.807,"text":"跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎"},{"start":4110.854,"end":4131.681,"text":"你沒有去嘛 你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講 台中港區 下那個勒那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊 那每天出入多少人啊對不對 所以我跟你講部長 我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料 光從111年"},{"start":4134.008,"end":4147.246,"text":"到現在就有八起的公安事故台電這是有通報的包含未通報的不知道有多少台電未來要在這邊興建多座的天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的"},{"start":4149.368,"end":4167.467,"text":"再建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總質詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟"},{"start":4168.427,"end":4195.506,"text":"這當然嘛 沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是 你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的"},{"start":4196.44,"end":4220.78,"text":"署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起啦沒有人可以承受 政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣 安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的永遠比發電更重要"},{"start":4223.697,"end":4240.098,"text":"再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創"},{"start":4240.999,"end":4269.756,"text":"尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說是歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓 心中非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的"},{"start":4270.416,"end":4282.582,"text":"大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、澳威抽水站、光明抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些"},{"start":4288.356,"end":4312.727,"text":"排水出去的河川它的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽出來水要排出去排不出去排不出去之後包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署"},{"start":4313.386,"end":4327.303,"text":"做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長 部長來 部長"},{"start":4329.065,"end":4356.655,"text":"因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響我們現在的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市館河川還包括"},{"start":4358.84,"end":4383.312,"text":"集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為你私有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做"},{"start":4383.956,"end":4409.744,"text":"河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地 對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了 鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是"},{"start":4412.899,"end":4429.539,"text":"抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫"},{"start":4431.751,"end":4452.722,"text":"繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對"},{"start":4455.123,"end":4480.64,"text":"這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說它的水位已經高過淹水區了水位高過淹水區它怎麼抽你再多的抽水區也抽不出去所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區我想這個要"},{"start":4481.564,"end":4498.663,"text":"我們請院長 部長我們把一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們賣咖啡還比較少因為極端氣候我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個"},{"start":4500.084,"end":4528.063,"text":"這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼 因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內"},{"start":4529.224,"end":4555.007,"text":"所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是它還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在加強 有在跟進但是我希望院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計畫針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區"},{"start":4555.908,"end":4568.352,"text":"人口新興的地區 新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後協助地方政府來更多的預算"},{"start":4585.882,"end":4594.924,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝閻委員 謝謝卓院長下一位下一位我們請林楚英委員質詢謝謝主席 主席有請卓院長好 請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4621.744,"end":4639.858,"text":"委員長早安 剛剛看到國民黨的委員非常的關心有關於違憲或者是合憲等等的問題我們造憲的立法院就是藍白立委占多數不知道院長知不知道在上個禮拜三禮拜四司法法治委員會在召委翁曉琳的排審之下"},{"start":4640.878,"end":4667.401,"text":"要針對停止年改這個法案他們以人數的多數其實現在已經送出委員會了我請這個院長來看一下現在這個最新的民調其實剛剛特別講到的就是現在立法院的狀況大家都知道藍白戰多數的情況底下沒有什麼法案他們不能過只有他們不想過想過的全部強度關山這已經是這一屆立法院來講已經是一個常態了"},{"start":4668.622,"end":4690.279,"text":"所以說我們來看一下在當時發生什麼狀況昭偉 翁曉琳甚至於認為說充分討論是一個惡習所以限制了民進黨委員的發言要求一個人只能三分鐘但是以他們現在想要透過強度關山恢復過去所謂的軍公教年改的這種所謂反年改的"},{"start":4691.139,"end":4712.083,"text":"報告來講的話現在這個法條過關最新的民調當中有59%的人將近6成是願意繼續來做年改而只有31%的認為要停止如果在這個物價上漲要停止軍公教的替代率嗎也有5成認為不同意"},{"start":4712.463,"end":4735,"text":"原因就在於大家都知道我們今天這一組剛好是經濟組的質詢如果國庫破產它所造成的不只是世代不正義行業間的退休金不正義整個國家的財政也會拖垮所以說我不知道院長怎麼來看就是當藍白目前的規劃"},{"start":4736.181,"end":4746.386,"text":"我們的國戶真的負擔得起的嗎真的像國民黨的委員所講的只是提早四年破產對於國家沒有關聯是這樣嗎"},{"start":4749.73,"end":4767.161,"text":"所以任何法案的完成它除了必須遵守憲法的規定之外同時更應該考慮是國家的財政永續從2018年開始整個年改經過社會大家非常大的討論其實那時候正反方向的力量都很大"},{"start":4767.941,"end":4783.51,"text":"但是當時選擇了一個我們必須要走的一條路所以走到今天我們能夠稍稍看到整個國家財政能夠繼續的下去雖然未來他有可能有一天會遇到困難但是我們在之前有充裕的時間可以做更多的經濟努力"},{"start":4784.511,"end":4807.163,"text":"更多的國人共識但是驟然把它停止讓它未來發生困難時往前提都會造成國家財政上重大的缺漏在目前為止我認為現在所行的制度是讓新的公務員有所保障已經退休的公務員生活也有所依靠應該是一個穩定的社會制度"},{"start":4807.828,"end":4834.125,"text":"本席會特別拿民調出來就是國庫就是人民的納稅錢一旦如果遇到破產的狀況那就是拿全民的納稅錢來補雖然現在的立法院藍白佔多數但是不要忘了他們是民意代表必須以民意為依歸而本席在這裡特別提出來也是支持行政院院長剛剛卓院長您所講的那就是世代的正義很重要不能讓"},{"start":4835.446,"end":4854.318,"text":"現在的公務員面對擔憂也不能讓行業之間因為退休金的給付造成不公平另外一個本席所關注到的問題那就更可怕了因為我們今天當然是經濟組但是面對現在以藍白為多數尤其是最大的在野黨的黨主席"},{"start":4854.898,"end":4880.142,"text":"如果是配合中國在進行所謂的幫共諜洗白或者是洗歷史這件事情那麼這將是非常可怕的一個狀況喔其實之前就已經有媒體先報導了就是國民黨的現任主席鄭麗文要去所謂馬場町配合這個所謂的秋季而這個秋季是一個所謂的統戰團體所"},{"start":4883.483,"end":4910.699,"text":"舉辦的活動而中國可以說最近有一個大陸劇很夯中國劇很夯那麼他其實就是在講無時這一個人但是如果說今天無時是誰無時他是一個被列為所謂共諜而且是當時的蔣介石認為扎扎實實的共諜但現在這個共諜居然是由國民黨的黨主席去追思他"},{"start":4911.499,"end":4933.084,"text":"配合王滬寧所下立的社台系統都要學習無時的精神沒有想到第一個帶頭去配合學習無時精神的居然是國民黨的黨主席啊我在想如果蔣介石在慈湖地下有知可能都要爬出來跟鄭麗文拼個是非對錯"},{"start":4934.124,"end":4949.182,"text":"他認為的共諜當時可能讓中華民國差一點就被消失的無時現在居然是一個最大在黨的黨主席來去所謂祭拜他這個部分怎麼"},{"start":4949.682,"end":4970.693,"text":"院長你怎麼看你認為這個會不會就是一個所謂的統戰已經進入了台灣而且是扎扎實實的敵我不分配合中國的涉台中共的涉台系統在學習無時在幫忙共諜洗白在幫忙中國來設下他的史觀來洗台灣民眾"},{"start":4972.648,"end":4995.423,"text":"是的 根文報告 無時是共諜共諜的工作在當時就是消滅國民黨而且要把台灣完全的納於中國共產黨的統治當中也就是要用中國的共產黨的集權統治來取代國民黨的黨國體制而且要消滅國民黨"},{"start":4997.068,"end":5014.564,"text":"身為國民黨的主席應該了解歷史而且知道目前的現實中國的北京方面已經要求他的涉台人員要學習無時精神這個就是要加強最對台的統治所以"},{"start":5015.465,"end":5036.757,"text":"這樣的一個去參加活動的行為剛剛呼應了這樣一個加強對台要統戰的一個工作所以我認為保護中華民國跟保護台灣主權安全的這項工作在現在國民黨主席帶領之下的國民黨是不可能做到的但是政府要積極跟全國"},{"start":5038.683,"end":5064.129,"text":"民主自由的政黨跟國人一起努力合力把台灣2300萬的國人一起努力把台灣的主權安全護衛的責任要扛在我們自己的手上好 我非常認同院長這樣講因為就在鄭麗文去祭拜五十的同時禮拜五的深夜我們看到的是我們的蕭美琴副總統站上了國際舞台在歐中議會當中為台灣發聲"},{"start":5066.69,"end":5088.704,"text":"而就在這個同時的另外一邊台灣的國內如果在野黨的主席是在遵從所謂國台辦或者是王滬寧系統下令要來配合所謂的學習無時精神這真的會造成國際的錯亂所以我非常認同院長所講的那就是台灣堅守自由民主這一塊"},{"start":5089.304,"end":5108.881,"text":"而台灣就是台灣的這個部分其實是要讓全世界知道我那天也很感慨蕭副總統站上的是國際舞台跟國民黨的黨主席站上的是國共舞台這差太多了當我們在國際舞台上為台灣出聲的時候還有很多人在酸言酸語"},{"start":5109.963,"end":5131.916,"text":"但是這些人對於國民黨的主席站上國共舞台加強對台統戰的時候卻是沉默的不敢發出聲音這個就是台灣今天極大的一個社會的一個現象所以政府還是我強調那一句我們應該結合更多的自由民主認同的政黨跟國人一起堅守立場守護台灣的主權跟安全"},{"start":5132.703,"end":5155.3,"text":"我相信多數的國人也會非常認同院長所講的守護我們這一片的土地是要靠我們自己包括剛剛國民黨的委員不斷的在質疑國防預算的部分我也很希望這個他們只是堅守所謂立委監督而不是配合中國希望來降低台灣的國防自主的防衛的能力"},{"start":5155.72,"end":5176.016,"text":"但是另外有一個是我們一方面注意到的是中國正在透過洗歷史的方式正在進行思想的統戰或思想的滲透但是另外一個無聲的戰爭其實正在台灣那就是所謂的經濟滲透這個部分我可能就要請經濟部長一起上台來喔就是其實我們看到"},{"start":5177.085,"end":5204.567,"text":"中國透過無聲的中資入侵不斷地來進入入侵台灣的經濟市場台灣的經濟好 全民有感包括現在已經開始要普發一萬了但是如果這些經濟入侵沒有好好的去根本解決包括我們看到的佳麗大榮的這個所謂紅色的運輸倉儲鏈是不是滲透台灣還有太子集團的所謂九家工科公司來進行所謂的跨國洗錢"},{"start":5205.968,"end":5222.997,"text":"含有中資的全真瑜家館現在以這個中國企業規避百分之三十的門檻掏空台灣的企業還有今天剛好是11月11號我們所在乎的就是跨境電商中國是不是利用跨境電商包括免運"},{"start":5223.837,"end":5250.903,"text":"包括2000以下的這種所謂小額的這種所謂跨境電商免稅的方式正在侵襲臺灣的零售產業這些問題追根究柢其實真的都跟工部長有關而部長真的也必須要花心思來思考這一連串中國透過經濟滲透所造成影響臺灣的問題但是本席要來追的是一個我其實在這個會期特別已經質詢過"},{"start":5255.005,"end":5269.758,"text":"這個國安局跟退府會就是有關於這個加里大龍的部分加里大龍最近很紅為什麼因為在非洲豬瘟大家在防疫的時候這一間貨運公司居然公然的要規避有關於"},{"start":5271.019,"end":5298.601,"text":"在了疑似感染株枝這樣的貨運要規避調查所以被高雄市政府裁拔了300萬而這家公司他到底負責了哪些部分就是我們當時在做全民防衛任性的時候他在有關於醫療冷鏈的部分是由這一家公司來負責而當時我在詢問退府會的時候閻德發主委特別告訴我那就是未來"},{"start":5300.202,"end":5327.794,"text":"榮總的系統不會再跟這樣的家裡大榮具有中資背景的來做合作會在合約上加注而蔡明彥國安局長也在我質詢當中的時候特別點出來就是會把有關於家裡大榮具有中資背景以及後面他的母公司是跟中國的解放軍有其關聯的部分要交給經濟部那麼我現在就請"},{"start":5329.274,"end":5344.446,"text":"院長跟經濟部來看那就是加里大榮的部分確實他跟中國的解放軍尤其是空軍他簽署了軍民融合的戰略合作的決議言下之意加里大榮"},{"start":5345.287,"end":5368.704,"text":"他雖然現在進入了台灣市場但是他背後的母公司是有中資背景存在那麼在這個部分院長你怎麼看不要忘了這個有關於冷鏈供應鏈甚至於是我們的醫藥鏈對於如果戰爭的時候醫藥往哪裡送節點在哪裡配置在哪裡如果今天中國"},{"start":5369.985,"end":5396.273,"text":"資金進入台灣的所謂的醫療產業鏈甚至於運輸產業鏈這將是一個非常危險的事情政府有義務保護所有合法在台灣設立公司所有的商業行為縱然他背後有任何的資金的疑慮他只要合乎我們的法律在這裡設立我們都有義務保護他的合法商業行為但是如果他的行為經過我們的國安單位"},{"start":5397.153,"end":5420.167,"text":"認為他已經觸犯了國安相當的疑慮那國安單位也寄出了所謂的這種禁令或是要求我們提醒注意的話那我想政府機關則無旁貸我會要求政府機關在國安單位這樣的一個明確的調查清楚之後對於包括這家貨運公司在內如果真的屬實如此那我們一律禁止"},{"start":5420.92,"end":5442.358,"text":"我要特別請這個工部長來回答是因為我在10月8號10月15號分別都質詢了退府會跟國安局那麼我想問一下經濟部現在對於家裡的體系裡面的股權結構跟實質投資的來源有沒有啟動內部的重新調查分兩個程式來調查第一個我們現在重新檢視他的股權結構就像你講的"},{"start":5443.72,"end":5456.276,"text":"層次非常多可能會有規避的狀況即便是股權表面上如果看起來是沒有問題的話我們也會調查他是不是有實質控制權利"},{"start":5456.946,"end":5475.597,"text":"如果中國的黨政軍也好或者是中資有實質控制權力即便它只有一股的話我們也會禁止把它當作是中資來辦第二個就是剛剛提到這些問題還沒有釐清之前我們就是剛剛提到比較敏感性的包括藥物還有"},{"start":5476.707,"end":5500.569,"text":"這些我們就暫停不讓他來運作就是不讓他來乘坐我們的物流最後我要提醒的就是有關於中資跟橋外資的重要的產業鏈投資的部分我也希望經濟部能夠重新來檢討因為有關於大陸地區人民來台投資的這個條例是在2012年釋定的而這個是正面表列就是可以投資哪些"},{"start":5501.189,"end":5524.7,"text":"另外有關於橋外資他是用負面表列的方式他是在2018年制定的就是列入哪些不可以投資但是不論是2012或是2018隨著現在整體的情勢國際的情況的不同我認為這兩個所謂的不論是正面表列或是負面表列都應該要重新來檢討"},{"start":5531.718,"end":5560.479,"text":"好 謝謝林委員好 謝謝卓院長下一位我們請賴世保委員質詢謝謝主席 江副院長 卓院長各位先進有請卓院長"},{"start":5561.921,"end":5587.931,"text":"請卓院長備選院長 你早這個我看你今天有點火氣不過我先講一下我沒有請你回答不要回答好不好讓我話講完你再回答那麼今天看到你面對媒體問你"},{"start":5590.545,"end":5616.041,"text":"說王世堅點名 王偉恩點名說你來選台北市長你用俏皮的說是你選一次回答我是覺得你被王世堅吃豆腐王世堅另外一句話講什麼95%講完連任他就吟下詩意就是他推薦鄭麗君推薦左龍泰當炮灰你當然不要當炮灰啊我這樣講法對吧"},{"start":5619.148,"end":5641.503,"text":"要問王委員本身的意見你不要問我 我怎麼知道你同意不同意 王委員這種講法就是吃你豆腐啦他都說95%一定是講萬安當權連任所以他等於你已經當炮灰啊王委員的意思要問他 要問我的話第一個我不會是炮灰 我也不會是豆腐"},{"start":5642.602,"end":5665.12,"text":"被吃豆腐 我都替你難過一個院長被吃豆腐他跟你說 家族5%一定是蔣安安當選我不要選 他不要當炮灰他講其他理由 推薦一個叫曾立軍或者朱龍泰好啦 你不好回答就不要回答了齁但是 我告訴你你被吃豆腐 因為你要當炮灰然後我們來看"},{"start":5666.641,"end":5688.612,"text":"現在來講 大家很關心的 總預算還沒有入圍啊你一直講說你不要當違憲的院長 言猶哉當初我們在推說普發現金一萬你也說違憲 後來你也發了啊你也發了啊 我們來看喔因為我們經過法律的調整我沒有請你回答 不要回答"},{"start":5690.049,"end":5707.539,"text":"我們依法不依法編列三讀通過的軍人加薪給志願役加薪我們買這麼多武器我們當然希望我們的志願役的人越來越多而且現在的一個編憲比八成左右"},{"start":5708.601,"end":5733.313,"text":"而且有1.2萬的人他寧願被罰他都不要當兵了不然怕死了對不對結果警消退休預算也通過了你也不要影響是什麼現在卡住了喔總預算卡住了卡住了我們要呼籲嘛那我們跟美國不一樣美國今天的國會美國的政府關門"},{"start":5735.847,"end":5743.063,"text":"關門40天 他解套了因為他們沒有像台灣這麼厲害我們的憲法 我們這裡法律很厲害"},{"start":5744.423,"end":5772.068,"text":"新的預算沒有通過 預算沒有通過舊的可以用好了 但新的不可以用哪幾個不會增加經濟部今天增加383億國花費只有增加0.6億農業部增加49億國防部增加938但是如果加上特別預算國防部增加的是3000億之多你講過一句話"},{"start":5773.669,"end":5800.179,"text":"這句我覺得是對的你說我要找韓院長找立法院韓院長來溝通一下是不是解決一個看一個怎麼樣有一個solution請問你到現在為止有找韓院長嗎我跟韓院長在重要的時刻我們都有溝通如果針對委員所提的這件事情我認為我在總諮詢結束的前後應該跟韓院長有正式的一個談話大概什麼時候"},{"start":5801.775,"end":5827.85,"text":"總諮詢結束的前後 下禮拜就結束了對啊 那也要看韓院長的時間啊儘快齁 奇怪 照理講是你們要擠啊我們替你擠啊 奇怪咧如果韓院長同意啊如果韓院長同意 我也想請委員一起來參加我跟你講啊 院長啊你要逼我們擠啊 現在怎麼說我們在擠呢我們覺得不能這個國家整個停擺美國就停擺了40天"},{"start":5829.435,"end":5841.006,"text":"10%以上的航班整個都是霧點他的圖書館沒有人管這個公園沒有人管很慘但我們因為我們的法律訂的比較好"},{"start":5842.052,"end":5869.372,"text":"舊的預算可以用新的沒問題所以以前也有發生過啊到隔年的10月5月中預算才通過這個都不好啦我希望院長我們一起來努力好不好我們一起來努力大家努力啦我們一起來努力你要做一個守規矩的院長啦你不要動不動講違憲違憲不違憲不是你的權利喔也不是你講的算因為我在講你剛回答了前面的委員說這個違憲我不要當違憲院長"},{"start":5871.541,"end":5897.531,"text":"普發現金一萬開始你也說違憲啊 後來你也發了啊後來經過我們修正啊經過行政院修正之後那是依照行政院的版本再發的我們請那個部長一起來哪一位部長經濟部長美國關稅的下一步"},{"start":5902.006,"end":5929.238,"text":"總統說台美談判會有好的進展那是10月22號快一個月囉昨天我到委員會問了我們公務部長哇他這個打太激情了那個樣子打太激情了我說什麼時候可以搞定台美關稅不要20加N不要疊加什麼時候可以搞定國務院長說快了快了我現在問左院長什麼時候可以搞定左院長"},{"start":5930.031,"end":5948.06,"text":"我們都有什麼時候可以搞定我們雖然都沒有到美國我們都有實際參與整個作業我們認為現在已經到了最後的階段因為全世界也剩下台灣這句話一個月以前就說過了我跟你講美國政府停擺你也知道的你也知道美國政府停擺所以他很多事情也停下來了"},{"start":5948.76,"end":5968.11,"text":"那個高層沒有停擺你不要隨便亂講你看喔我們是最早跟美國談的四個國家之一台灣你看喔全市民到現在人家都定了韓國定了日本定了台灣沒有定了"},{"start":5969.191,"end":5980.84,"text":"有一個說法是說那川習會之後才定那APEC他們見面呢也沒有定難道要等到明年4月才定他們明年4月才見面呢難道是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5981.81,"end":5999.062,"text":"台美雙方都希望能夠盡快的把盡快是什麼時候年底可以嗎這個不是我方一方的意願我說我算個時間這個結果是什麼剛剛委員說我跟海運長見面我可以說我有個期待的時間但是美方不能說我方算個時間你可以啦這個是買方市場賣方市場"},{"start":6000.863,"end":6025.87,"text":"我們會努力盡快我跟委員承諾 努力盡快 而且最近應該會有一些進展我們來談最近是什麼 什麼叫最近英文叫Listening最近你告訴我什麼時候叫最近我們來看喔我們來看你們要談的結果是什麼傳統產業 比如說工具機將近5%Plus20等於25很難過"},{"start":6027.952,"end":6048.971,"text":"我們經濟部長還在經濟委員會裡面吹牛說我們要針對傳統產業要形成大的產業控股公司問題他們現在苦哈哈 你先幫他解決吧先幫他解決這個問題 好 那我就問郭智輝部長有說除了關稅以外對傳統產業最重要的是匯率"},{"start":6054.69,"end":6076.695,"text":"他心目中希望能夠三十一業者我去打聽了希望三十四部長你要不要講一下你心目中要不要跟國資會一樣三十一雖然那個是央行的職者職權但是你總是有一個主觀的期待吧替我們中小企業替我們的傳統產業講講話他們真的很辛苦"},{"start":6078.275,"end":6095.96,"text":"匯率你心目中有沒有一個政府官員不適合談匯率怎麼不適合 國務部長就在這裡講31啊我們只能講說匯率要保持穩定不要波動太大短期間不要波動太大因為傳統產業講說要34比較好以後你講32"},{"start":6099.241,"end":6127.664,"text":"他講31現在多少你知道嗎現在多少現在費率也差不多算穩定現在多少你知道嗎30塊8 30塊9吧左右30點多 將近31啦穩定 長期穩定就好你講31是很安全啦你怎麼不敢講呢我這整個是市場在決定的第二個 第二個 第二個現在美國最高法院審理川普的關稅案川普可能輸喔因為現在看到"},{"start":6128.823,"end":6156.343,"text":"不管這個大法官是來自於藍的紅的就是民主黨或者共和黨他們基本上都認為川普違憲他要賠20兆美金請問部長或者院長有沒有想過我們廠商這段時間從8月開始20加N 20加N 一直課我們原來大概只有2%幾%而已有的5%"},{"start":6158.592,"end":6182.567,"text":"我們能不能回到原來當然這個錢不是全部進口商付但是我們也付一部分 出口商付一部分比如說要課20塊 進口商10塊 出口商10塊我們能不能去跟他要回來 可不可以跟我們報告兩件事 第一個這個對等關稅是美國對全世界普遍性的 不是單對我股"},{"start":6183.345,"end":6212.47,"text":"所以我們要脫離這樣神聖的秩序目前來看當然是困難的再來你要回到過去那種個位數的關稅現在各國看起來也沒有這樣的情況有 我要告訴你如果川普被判違憲三個結果第一個結果不溯及計畫可能就拿走了就拿走了這個川普想要的是這樣拿走拿走第二個部分溯及計畫過去課的多少 哪一部分回來第三個全部溯及"},{"start":6214.116,"end":6229.188,"text":"這三個都可能發生三個都可能發生那我現在就問你你們做了沙盤推特別是經濟部長我看你這一副一副都不知道啊沒有 報告委員事實上以川普政府來講的話雖然他"},{"start":6230.885,"end":6244.479,"text":"我們不知道他們大法官會怎麼判但是他還有其他的工具包括232他很多的項目已經搬到232去了他還有301所以我們還是要做好準備我們提升我們的競爭力比較重要"},{"start":6247.562,"end":6267.995,"text":"我問你說我們已經被他課的關稅能不能把他要領回來替廠商要領回來幫廠商一點忙你說沒有回答問題啊沒有他們最高法院都還沒有判啊還不知道要怎麼判你要先預備準備啊你準備好沒有就是你有沒有想過你有沒有想過我們政府可以幫忙要領回來"},{"start":6269.451,"end":6295.016,"text":"假如可以給人家的話不是 他們最高法院判的話如果要緩緩就會緩緩啊他不見得都還給出口商我們出口商不一定拿得到他是還給美國的進口公司知道吧 比如說比如說這是Amazon或者是Costco或者是什麼 Walmart他是還給Walmart"},{"start":6296.472,"end":6324.517,"text":"因為沃瑪進來的時候我們已經付一部分他也付一部分所以全部他拿走我們要不要這個沃瑪幫助廠商把他拿一點回來我是問你這個如果是這樣的話我們當然會協助廠商爭取他的權益請問你請問我在院長面前可不可以責成經濟部這個事情先做一個事先的規劃一下如果川普輸了"},{"start":6325.731,"end":6334.446,"text":"他們要緩緩關稅部分也好全部也好我們經濟部怎麼樣營運可以嗎一個禮拜一要講計畫提出來可以嗎可不可以"},{"start":6336.752,"end":6359.049,"text":"我們現在第一個掌握是說原來多少在對等關稅的他已經移到232那個部分將來如果世襲有一個判決的結果會不會影響這部分如果川普關稅他輸了我們的因應報告可以吧兩個部分一個就是原來在對等關稅他已經要移到232的將來這個判決之後有結果出來會不會連232這個也會影響這是一個部分你講的可不可以告訴我們部長"},{"start":6362.952,"end":6388.291,"text":"寫一個報告出來給我們可以嗎第一個部分就是部長說的那在這裡面他依照判決的結果我方一定要爭取我們在商業行為上有利的條件再簡單一點啦兩個禮拜以內提出這樣的報告或者你上網讓外界看得到可以嗎報告委員可以嗎可以嗎我問你可以嗎我是覺得啦在那個他們美國大法就是最高法院還沒有判決之前我們出這樣報告"},{"start":6389.565,"end":6413.804,"text":"是不是會影響到好 那判決之後兩個禮拜以內請出報告可以嗎可以可以上網 判決以後兩個禮拜內上網好 我們來看今天媒體有寫到中油弊案說中油的告示說錢太多你們盡量的福報我們農業部長一起上來好不好農業部長一起上來可以嗎請 陳部長"},{"start":6415.617,"end":6443.868,"text":"總有的你們要不要一起查一下立案去查一下可以嗎事實上113年的時候就是之前已經有查了有沒有這回事有人提到政風已經查過一次了沒有這回事但是現在有新的事證我們會再查一次我最後請農業部長講一下獨彈的"},{"start":6445.265,"end":6471.196,"text":"我們現在那個源頭在哪裡 現在找不到啊源頭在哪裡 告訴我們 趕快 20幾秒我跟委員說明現在初步看起來是一個單一的個案因為芬芙泥本身是殺蟲劑基本上它不能用在機制上面但是可能是旁邊因為有農田我們現在正在瞭解然後現在總共有4批的這些雞蛋這個雞蛋全部下架除了彰化以外 其他地方可能也有"},{"start":6474.899,"end":6482.022,"text":"黃婕委員質詢書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報報告院會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":7196.499,"end":7197.96,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請卓院長好 請卓院長備選"},{"start":7230.168,"end":7258.605,"text":"委員好院長好首先我要講一件讓國人都覺得驕傲的事情就是我們蕭美琴副總統站上了國際的舞台剛剛你回答林楚映委員的時候也有提到國人感到非常的驕傲蕭美琴副總統赴歐洲議會演說讓臺灣走向國際甚至連很多國外的學者都認為過去這是不可能做到的事情不可思議的事情但是我們做到了"},{"start":7258.925,"end":7286.844,"text":"當然要感謝很多在背後在第一線上出力努力的所有的人員的付出但是我必須要請院長能夠密切的關注一件事情在蕭美琴副總統副歐洲議會演說的當天晚上跟隔天也就是昨天大量的網路謠言說蕭美琴副歐洲演說是換80億換來的"},{"start":7289.305,"end":7309.935,"text":"這一件事情上我想請教一下院長第一個網友的造謠總統府有出面譴責那外交部確定已經報警那行政院目前掌握的狀況跟訊息到底有沒有外力的介入的狀況院長請問一下結果當然還要再進一步的去"},{"start":7311.215,"end":7334.721,"text":"溯源去追查出來但是這件事情讓我們充分看得出來總統帶領的國安及外交團隊一直是戰戰兢兢安安穩穩的在從事台灣的對外關係我們好不容易得到了這樣的一個機會副總統也是嫌總統之命在非常巧妙的安排底下能夠聚到國外參加這樣的會議"},{"start":7335.521,"end":7361.564,"text":"那國人應該給予更多的鼓勵甚至希望帶回來更好的訊息而不是用這樣的方式在抵消我們自己的作戰的士氣或者對外的努力的工作我覺得這個是值得我們深思的但就目前為止這個事情總統府已經正式的否認而且予以駁斥那我們尋正常的管道尋檢調單位在做這個不實的散播謠言者一定要做進一步的追查"},{"start":7362.025,"end":7382.86,"text":"我要請院長要密切的而且要嚴厲的要求這個真的要做到要防止網路謠言不斷的造謠這樣的造謠我要跟院長報告我昨天一天在很多不同的地方群組就已經看到這樣子的謠言跟圖卡"},{"start":7383.38,"end":7398.342,"text":"那我覺得這個是不是外力的介入我想大家自有心證但是呢我們的國安團隊一定要嚴正的來第一個制止第二個該法律提告的一定要告到底"},{"start":7398.742,"end":7419.077,"text":"我們一定要用各種方式來遏止這樣子惡意抵消我們全國大家共同認為感到驕傲而且這麼多人努力才有這麼巧妙的安排讓我們的副總統站上這個國際的舞台到歐洲議會來演講所以院長我要拜託你我們一定要堅持原則 嚴查庶辦嚴查庶辦 好不好"},{"start":7423.159,"end":7443.304,"text":"剛剛院長有提到當我們的副總統可以站上國際舞台但是看到另外這幾天大家覺得不可思議的是國民黨主席好像樂於站上中國的舞台不知道院長還有沒有印象2012年的立委選舉何新淳一直在這裡"},{"start":7445.43,"end":7462.623,"text":"對上的是現在的國民黨主席鄭麗文的未來在這裡我一直在台中一直在台中為台中努力一直在為台灣努力那看到當時候的對手鄭麗文她在當選國民黨主席的第一時間我也有恭喜她 祝福她"},{"start":7463.223,"end":7484.407,"text":"但是從他當選主席到現在的所有的言論好像讓國人覺得非常的不可思議而且非常的擔憂所以委員是有實力打敗國民黨主席的人謝謝所以院長對於鄭麗文最後當選的國民黨主席看一下他的選舉公報當時候"},{"start":7487.648,"end":7511.014,"text":"他對地方也有很多政見然後我今天看到他明天生日也要先祝他生日快樂很高興的是我的鄉親做了對的選擇讓我有機會能夠服務也能夠站上這個舞台但是我覺得以他最近的這些言論甚至去參加所謂的秋季"},{"start":7512.274,"end":7540.583,"text":"國家的歷史跟尊嚴絕對不容扭曲而且我相信他做的這一個動作第一個民眾黨黨主席黃國昌他也不以為然他說無實是共諜並非政治受難者國民黨自己內部的也有很大的聲音包括他們的前青年部副主任也槓上了現在的鄭麗文主席說追思無實踐踏國家尊嚴"},{"start":7543.058,"end":7570.636,"text":"剛剛院長有提到我們的副總統好不容易站上了國際的舞台但是我們看到現在的第一大的在野黨的黨主席竟然站上了好像是中國的舞台那院長您對鄭麗文主席的這個看法身為一個主要在野黨的主席對參加一個活動本身就必須是相當敏感注意了解他的背景跟歷史的"},{"start":7571.794,"end":7600.943,"text":"傳統上我們說台灣民主運動之下的政治受難者是要將台灣從威權體制脫離出來走向一個自由人權民主的一個體制但是一個共諜是要把中國共產黨的極權體制取代中國國民黨的黨國體制這截然是不同的而且程度上是更往反方向走的所以身為國民黨的主席在參加活動之前"},{"start":7602.253,"end":7607.956,"text":"即使自己不知道當社會討論了好幾天之後也應該了解也應該有這個警覺心"},{"start":7609.153,"end":7636.34,"text":"過去參加這個活動就會被引申呼應了中國要求涉台人員都學習無時精神的這樣一個做法那變成雙方在做呼應會影響國內的視聽所以我剛才說政府必須更積極的跟國內所有理念相同的政黨跟所有的國人一起為保護中華民國台灣的主權跟安全我們不能放棄我們的原則而這個責任"},{"start":7637.503,"end":7638.812,"text":"現在中國國民黨可能已經拋棄了"},{"start":7640.455,"end":7667.487,"text":"可能就拋棄了只有我們能夠做得到他們拋棄但是我們承擔我們願意承擔我們願意堅守價值中華民國台灣的主權堅守保護守護我們的國人這個我想是我們的責任也是我們的目標也是我們的價值之所在中華民國台灣是民主自由的堡壘對不對院長這個我覺得基於我們中華民國台灣的國家歷史跟尊嚴絕對要堅持謝謝院長"},{"start":7670.248,"end":7699.728,"text":"接下来我就要再谈论我们民生的议题了今天是跟经济相关最重要是大家关心红胎这个台风是穿心台虽然在今天早上听起来好像路线有稍微往南移好像也减轻了为青台但是我们还是谨慎以待严正以待尤其中央曾经进驻花莲跟台中目前的准备我不知道院长掌握的状况"},{"start":7700.708,"end":7716.793,"text":"馬太安溪又溢流我們也要求地方政府要趕快的來撤離而且要做到位現在花蓮縣政府的處理狀況我們院長有掌握嗎還有安全的措施配套呢"},{"start":7717.608,"end":7745.895,"text":"我希望地方政府能夠依照中央應變中心所依據資訊判斷下的任何指令能夠確實的執行那我也應該要相信花蓮縣政府在經過上次菸社會的事件之後跟中央的配合應該要有一套新的方式這一次我們到目前為止在花蓮地區我們進行了撤離疏散垂直避難的已經有4150人"},{"start":7747.535,"end":7753.728,"text":"垂直避難的那麼撤離宿散的有2148人安置收容安置的也有659人"},{"start":7755.083,"end":7777.077,"text":"那個這個都按照之前的一些演練的方式有陸續的到位我覺得這次到目前看起來時間上縱然有一點點在調整上面的時間的一個落差一點點但我覺得那個目前為止並沒有產生現在所看到任何影響我希望這些的撤離安置我也要求花蓮縣政府對安置的收容的"},{"start":7777.737,"end":7792.769,"text":"以及撤離的要託與照顧需要任何的協助中央應變中心會隨時予以支援今天中午諮詢結束之後我會跟總統一起到中央應變中心再跟地方政府做密切的溝通予以必要的協助"},{"start":7793.109,"end":7811.151,"text":"是 院長大家都辛苦了你辛苦了但是我們中央應變中心中央一定要全力的來確保所有國人的安全當然除了進駐花蓮之外因為非洲豬瘟的關係我們中央也進駐台中我現在擔心的是什麼"},{"start":7811.912,"end":7825.262,"text":"台中市為了因應非洲豬瘟這個廚餘的問題一直沒有辦法解決所以台中市在原縣區挖了12處的大型土坑來傾倒廚餘現在很多市民擔心的是什麼"},{"start":7826.894,"end":7849.847,"text":"那些土坑 那些廚餘坑現在碰到颱風來了會不會有造成傷害這個傷害除了可能廢水的溢流 外流危及到環境跟水源還有會影響到民眾的健康甚至這些土坑它的土體會不會潰堤這個其實都需要中央的來協助"},{"start":7852.128,"end":7876.034,"text":"院長你看一下我幾張照片給你看現在台中市政府的說它因應颱風的措施是蓋帆布壓石頭然後圍籬也是簡單的圍籬這個是現場現在我們昨天照到的照片不知道院長你覺得這個可以止得住"},{"start":7877.074,"end":7887.33,"text":"抵擋得住颱風的侵襲嗎這樣子的防護措施夠嗎除於在緊急狀況下用這種掩埋的方式"},{"start":7888.74,"end":7908.924,"text":"是非常不安全的但是在究極的情況下那幾天是特別要這樣做那已經請環環境部要求地方的環保局環保單位一定要確實做到要覆土要50 30公分這樣覆土那一定要做到那這個是基本的安全而已強風一來可能會造成其他的傷害"},{"start":7909.124,"end":7935.254,"text":"院長因為你曾經三次到台中來視察而且現場的這個文山掩埋場的現場你也去視察過所以第一時間中央有要求地方政府要做好你剛剛講的緊急的措施30公分 50公分這樣的標準但是我們市民擔心的是這些坑挖了之後它的周遭的防固跟防護"},{"start":7936.494,"end":7961.455,"text":"如果遇到颱風強風暴雨的侵蝕之下沖刷之下這些泥土會不會隨著雨水流到周邊的市民的社區裡面這是第一個第二個它的儲雨的水因為水分是很多的當時候因為救急所以底層的防護布並沒有"},{"start":7962.276,"end":7985.214,"text":"按照中央的要求甚至市民很擔心連防護的這個底層的那一層防護可能都沒有那這樣的情況之下颱風又來了到底會不會造成危害我覺得請院長要要求第一個要求環境部我已經跟環境部說過希望他跟地方政府要事先能夠要求他們做到"},{"start":7985.794,"end":8003.445,"text":"目前可以做的盡量要完成現在可以做的防腐的措施因為今天這個彭部長不在這裡陳部長也知道這個事情農業部來做說明我跟委員很簡單的說明第一個部分就是為了運營防災他們蓋的帆布用石頭壓是壓不住的所以有要求他們從四邊去"},{"start":8004.426,"end":8033.168,"text":"拉丁卯往下丁第二個部分是圍籬的部分最主要是防止野山豬來吃廚餘然後我們經過覆土又把它加工本來30公分變50公分然後圍籬或是圍墊圍墊網的部分這個部分我想環境部都已經去查過了圍墊網是沒什麼問題的現在就是帆布的部分是擔心說如果被風吹走雨水下去以後會導致會有一些類似泥土被沖刷往下移的部分這個部分環境部都會隨時監控"},{"start":8034.94,"end":8058.14,"text":"我希望院長跟環境部要求環境部跟農業部相關部會這個監控要協助地方政府要嚴格到位因為這是市民的健康安全的問題水源的部分因為有一個洞是離無錫比較近就是霧峰那一個掩埋場它的下面就是無錫"},{"start":8060.36,"end":8075.988,"text":"這個要請經濟部、水利組、水利單位要嚴密的來監控好不好我跟永遠報告我們在全台灣比較有風險的22個掩埋場我們都有架設 林保署都有架設監視器所以這個監視器如果看到有一些不對勁的時候隨時會通知地方政府"},{"start":8076.788,"end":8098.193,"text":"最後又是一個民生問題雞蛋剛剛有聽到部長有回答其他委員我只兩個問題現在已經下架有問題的這個牧場的雞蛋其他牧場安全嗎第二個還有3萬顆的所謂的散裝的雞蛋不知去向我們行政院農業部有掌握狀況嗎"},{"start":8099.013,"end":8120.724,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案子一出來由地方政府提報了以後第一時間我們的那個食安辦還有衛福部還有農業部就啟動了聯合的一個查訪那在11月6號的時候我們就到現場去看那個牧場本身的飼料跟雞蛋那現在看起來是沒問題的然後可能是一個單一事件的一個環境污染"},{"start":8121.584,"end":8135.294,"text":"我們在確認污染源找到之前我們不會再讓這個牧場的蛋能夠喪失這第一個第二個就是全台灣其他的地方因為過去每一年跟衛福部跟農業部都有去追查希望這個食安一定要守住"},{"start":8146.444,"end":8159.577,"text":"好 謝謝何委員 謝謝卓院長下一位陳廷輝委員自質詢已素面提出請行政院素面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請丁學忠委員質詢"},{"start":8185.097,"end":8197.789,"text":"感謝最強的前主席江副院長感謝我們卓院長請我們卓院長跟陳副長請卓院長還有陳副長飛雪院長好 院長好副長好 院長好"},{"start":8211.448,"end":8235.492,"text":"今天有可能我們這個台灣會被這個鳳凰颱風侵蝕整個壟罩在我們台灣的範圍可能要請我們議長我們國會和國管局密切的配合主動這個揮霍的機制可以讓我們台灣我們各地區都可以更安全"},{"start":8240.865,"end":8268.632,"text":"等一陣子我們這個歸宿出運發生感謝我們中央行政會合可以及時來隔阻到我們這個歸宿出運的這個蔓延讓我們這個疫情可以穩定下來還有一項就是等幾天我們這個解除那個禁載禁運我們還有出運"},{"start":8270.009,"end":8294.156,"text":"地位的介紹 境界比較好 比較穩定這時候我正在看這個內政局長對著防疫署的署長的質詢我有請他們說我們都要說要大力來關心這個議題也有三成好過這個地位的介紹都非常穩定 感謝我們都要顧到"},{"start":8295.503,"end":8303.89,"text":"在這也要討論到我們這個在外國人持有這個近親近親的問題我們台灣是一個擁地三逆非常先進的一個國家我們有關這個擁地三逆也現在正在走進我們的現代化"},{"start":8321.8,"end":8330.468,"text":"這個國分 歸宿主運的發生對到我們經濟的生涯造成很大的一個憧憬讓大家意識到我們這個流失的安全的議題說到我們請你看這個數據婦人關國情有一千兩百空三條 用一條"},{"start":8344.67,"end":8356.461,"text":"地價總數超過一百五十一萬頭我們一天的土砧量是我們全台灣的一成我們一天土砧超過兩千五百頭全台灣幾乎13000隻以上的大型的用地量總共有兩百九十六噸其中有九十二噸是當溫庫年關"},{"start":8370.899,"end":8390.077,"text":"可以說是中國的三分之一的這個收益我相信國中這樣有靈通了喔了解 現在的情況就是這樣對 所以我們婦人館是我們地下三頁的心中這麼多的收穫每一天都要來處理這個土砧"},{"start":8393.078,"end":8404.53,"text":"結果我們就需要要把我們的地產送去百貨公司去進行這個渡載 原因是什麼是因為這個渡載的量能不夠量能不夠 我們本人的關係是在建設檔幾年過後應該了解吧 了解"},{"start":8417.782,"end":8445.203,"text":"民國六十七年建設的現在的食育精神對於老化的速度都在從幾乎完全沒有阻礙我剛才說到我們這個人道土宅的過分這種實施 人們繼續使用就算在我們的食品安全上有風險也算三年效力也會更好"},{"start":8446.789,"end":8450.502,"text":"國長 你有感覺說是因為我們政府應該優先來改善這個行為"},{"start":8453.564,"end":8481.184,"text":"我向委員報告現在全台灣的屠宰場大概有55場那55場裡面其中有22場它具有批發的市場的功能那我們農協部過去三四年在養豬產業裡面除了幫我們的豬農的豬舍升級以外我們對於屠宰場本身的一個優化讓它符合一些衛生安全的規定我們也非常努力的去做這件事情感謝博士你好我們有關青馬"},{"start":8483.452,"end":8501.567,"text":"整個兩基的工程第一基要專門更新土宅社會導入人道土宅的這個流程第二基要建立完整的兩鏈系統這不是第一最重心來建設這個基礎而已是要"},{"start":8505.343,"end":8523.518,"text":"我們這個婚姻打造全國第一座主動化兩面化的現代都在中但婚姻關在前靠久久 需要靠中央來合作國中剛才說的合作 第一期需要二十億億 過千過萬元中央國情委員會工作四億年"},{"start":8532.438,"end":8548.731,"text":"1983年那時候合併的就是不過我原本報告因為裁判法的關係沒那麼一開始因為黨政府有比較多錢去做所以議員你用這個錢繼續支持這個土台事務如果不夠的時候我們中央再來看要怎麼合作對 我們婦人館是要維護我們台灣全國國人的食品安全我們是要讓我們的地位"},{"start":8559.64,"end":8572.246,"text":"出國去到外國讓人知道我們台灣地的安全和優秀所以我們要花這麼多經費來進行這個頂低的改革所以我在這裡要跟國長說我已經定年我們剛九年的時候有跟國長協調也有請韓院長來跟國長協調那時候我們國長有答應說"},{"start":8589.537,"end":8594.059,"text":"第一次要讓我們考驗當我們的冠軍時期一半十二年 十二月我們就開工當他在一半十五年會落月要來完工現在收起來的什麼就是金錢而已不是說我們的勤奮性"},{"start":8617.251,"end":8622.638,"text":"衛鄉的同樣是百均市場加以控制的市場薪金要三十億"},{"start":8624.298,"end":8637.988,"text":"我們中央就高達超過二十億一百均九年就通過 到現在還沒成長我跟委員報告 破住的部分現在行政要不合定在第一點第二點的時候就說婚姻那時候補起來的價位 金額買了幾位下去 那金額越來越大所以我們現在就是說因為財務法的關係 萬一本身不夠的時候我們中央再來合作"},{"start":8650.998,"end":8672.009,"text":"因為越來越多就是滷汗 滷汗 枯燥它的材料越去越貴當然有經費 越來越多所以我真的要跟國中各國我們知道一半十四年以後 到一半 到十一歲才是統計起來分明說我們會五年期間 靠在頭上台灣 外地裏的"},{"start":8680.646,"end":8684.351,"text":"第一就是相隔千五十一萬私情者相隔千就是婦人關革命的企業生意要賺到多少婦人關的革命都賺到五十萬"},{"start":8698.171,"end":8703.478,"text":"空氣前幾隻所以這個量數那麼大我們這個池塘的精神應該是有符合到我們現代我們現在有多少錢會競爭池塘技術藥的一個設施像這樣"},{"start":8714.931,"end":8739.618,"text":"我跟威廉報告以農業部來說絕對支持要分辨有自己的一些屠宰場的部分但是重點就是說當初四個月的經費一直暴增但是暴增的過程中都沒有跟農業部來協調結果到最後的話就是一筆一筆像你剛才說的二十幾億就出來了那中央本身沒有辦法用這樣的預算說隨時就有經費可以資助第二點就是說"},{"start":8740.538,"end":8750.334,"text":"我剛才說的 現在有裁判法的時候地方應該有應用 應用自己的錢如果不夠的時候 我們中央再來想辦法來做我地方 剛才這個裁判法又減27億了對啊 又減27億了"},{"start":8755.236,"end":8764.166,"text":"因為財化法現在已經落去以後很多事權事權現在我們行政院也在檢討我們也是期待說透過這個財化法可以讓地方有自由的財源"},{"start":8771.594,"end":8791.35,"text":"那些建設 不免說 還有來臨老闆中央來協助建築可以讓他們創造的建築 可以來建設地方但是 現在創造出來的結構 我們分明看是要建第十七號所以當這個老闆遲到中間 會過分第一 咱們國中有大英"},{"start":8798.486,"end":8818.255,"text":"後果跟有資料跟我們合作現在我沒辦法跟你說明,我剛才說的就是如果婚姻關自己出錢,如果沒救的時候,我們中央會來協助整個界位因為是重大建設,也要報到國安會去審議啦因為電影報仇的經費,建設的經費一定要經過國安會來審議審議通過以後,我們中央才會來協助所以中央國安會好好跟我們請勞"},{"start":8826.499,"end":8835.085,"text":"我剛才沒辦法跟你承諾因為幾位主要看得到幾位主來的經過國安會的審議沒有 審議有在蓋嘛它裡面的一些設計的規劃的這些標準跟中央國安會的標準不太一樣嘛所以後續還是會國安會來審議啦"},{"start":8844.591,"end":8853,"text":"國會審議過就沒問題了嘛國會審議完了以後然後再看經費怎麼分攤啦就是說地方看要出多少啊中央不夠的時候中央再來考慮看要怎麼來補助這樣對地理基金也是所以我把我們考慮下去啦對地理基金有14億啦"},{"start":8864.686,"end":8889.987,"text":"要做事業 我要跟你們報告就是說如果要整個一個屠宰場或是肉品市場要一次規劃完 而不是分期喔第一期先拿出來 說完以後再變成第二期再出來這樣沒完沒了 是市區市區的問題第一期剛才我有說過第一期是都市的股份第二期是兩鏈系統的股份"},{"start":8890.828,"end":8897.65,"text":"是這樣,不是說怎麼去怎麼分作兩極,是各有各,各有各的事實。這我會來瞭解,然後再看,買了看過多次,我再來看。他對,他對,我怪討你啦,我們關系各有各的相關。"},{"start":8914.758,"end":8934.402,"text":"一定叫農業補償出來修正價位 連累國發費新秘製藥他就出現一個但是這個分攤是第一跟中央依照新的財發法來分攤是 現在委員說現在分林好像減去 減到9是不是因為財發法的設計就是這樣 計算就是這樣所以我們現在有想要重新的表現我會去 一定 你有去我們分林"},{"start":8941.96,"end":8943.386,"text":"觀眾等於跟你說 彩畫畫這樣不對你說不是這樣 你會受傷"},{"start":8947.669,"end":8961.919,"text":"我會重疊在那裡希望我們現在會在新的項目上委員可以來支持新的財法法的修正讓各縣級可以比較平均比較公平對地份好 財政可以更加充足我們是一定支持的謝謝好 再來要來請教國長我們這個稀要的問題我們分明是全國三大擁擠三要的重點擁擠"},{"start":8977.113,"end":9002.279,"text":"用一戶有五千四百多公斤在我們的面積五千八百多公斤都達到全台灣的總量的兩成是由考核的態勢我們的管額跟額外債、立法額外債也是重要的一個選擇考核有全國地理上的高度會用一戶這幾戶 中國都當民國"},{"start":9006.394,"end":9012.177,"text":"幾十年就都已經完善堅定國情 農法 開放中但婦人關的財政都已經一直強調對我們婦人財政比較困難區域內的就都比較豐富都這些都要修復在這裡我要感謝我們的基督徒當下中秋林這段時間這裡幫助到我們這裡用一口"},{"start":9035.919,"end":9041.644,"text":"提供方法的改善但是我們希望的是什麼?我們都說可以做整體的一個區域可以讓我們更多的合作做好基礎建設 強化各方的技術這樣好嗎?"},{"start":9057.655,"end":9085.186,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們裡面的水路部分我們協助包括我們的農田水利署這邊也會來協助你跟我說整體規劃的時候第一點就是說我們現在本身在地市民願意說要重新的一個規劃因為你重新規劃以後你的水路才有辦法設計所以這個部分其實我們也一直在跟地方政府還有跟我們的漁民在溝通"},{"start":9087.053,"end":9095.181,"text":"好 這樣講 天恩是需要中香的關懷再來 我們婚姻煙花 家財都是土海 衛生我們一屆 婚姻開花企業看這個幾個月"},{"start":9106.869,"end":9111.493,"text":"我們現在存大約五個魚缸存大約五個魚缸那裡可以有魚看可以處理獵魚之前當我們大小當我們五條缸的魚缸那裡那裡還有五分的魚看為什麼這個會這樣"},{"start":9126.977,"end":9152.17,"text":"我跟你們報告 過去的專業漁業圈一分兩部分一部分是海洋捕撈的 一部分是沿境海的部分因為過去的海洋捕撈的部分因為專業漁業圈的全人就是肥肥部分他本身並沒有去投資就是說去增加他的這些漁民 漁民的放養量所以我們這一次只核發了他的沿境海的漁業圈所以你看起來面積會變小"},{"start":9154.311,"end":9160.359,"text":"刷下去以後他如果要申請那個海洋漁業權的時候我們就有更好的一個規定啦所以這兩樣是無關的"},{"start":9162.26,"end":9181.566,"text":"我們台西五條港、三條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、三條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五條港、五"},{"start":9189.468,"end":9198.811,"text":"協助肥源 讓他們有更多更寬的海域可以進行鼓浪這個國運可能要改革都要講 要再討論這我們來做啦 就是說 要怎麼協助我們的肥民在海裡去捕魚這個博恩 那漁業群的部分 我們要跟肥輝跟肥民坐定來討論一下肥源跟肥輝對於香港調查跟這個規定有什麼問題"},{"start":9218.556,"end":9227.221,"text":"是不是可以請我們農藥局的農藥署來提供協助一定 我們現在就在協助啦就是說對於這個漁業圈 陸漁圈的部分我們協助到市府都會來共同來協助我們的市民來申請啊當這個國防也去牽連到什麼呢離島港藥庫的這個範圍裡面所以我現在在處理啊對 離島港藥庫的整個也是非常影響到我們這個農藥的這個發展"},{"start":9248.479,"end":9260.098,"text":"剛才看到我們的血汗的痘痘 也看到死亡跟代謝、代過婚都去外面 代過婚那裡也是血有這個甘藥苦的煩惱在裡面"},{"start":9262.039,"end":9271.562,"text":"我跟委員補講,因為階級降落去以後變成說我們沒辦法去討害、沒辦法去賜福利嘛我跟經濟部也有討論就是說他還沒開發以前,可以讓我們的市民去捧貨所以現在基本上我們現在在處理啊對,這大型的離島工業區的範圍真的要久久的開發,市場開放不可以,這國分"},{"start":9292.054,"end":9298.263,"text":"真的 我們一定要認真地討論我們剛才在說的那種分離道工業區的那種我之前也有去試試過"},{"start":9307.824,"end":9320.012,"text":"我們跟這群紅人也邀約出來 剛才說你們有在解決這個問題我們跟經濟部現在有在討論看要怎樣 要不要開發疫情這個地方可以讓我們的市民去放學 去拖駕對 所以這個國分可能要改作我們國警所動"},{"start":9332.16,"end":9343.811,"text":"我們冠軍所在有很多這個當局依賴因為這個工業區的限制工業區海域有很多在那裡灌額他的額外錢都在那裡灌額那些都是事實但是剛好在海外就得到我們政府的這個協助"},{"start":9357.645,"end":9369.267,"text":"這個國分要我們靠近來改過人再來就是這個人力的問題剛才我們說到這個氣氛我們氣氛也有人對健康的這個問題婚姻的企鵝仔、鋼鵝仔、鵝仔籠他們老年化、少子化的這個影響未夠採收期"},{"start":9385.888,"end":9405.549,"text":"都有人工骨灸的這個問題我們現在有動手的時辰可以新鮮化了來日的農民可以新鮮化了但是教法和頭頂就是不能新鮮化了"},{"start":9408.726,"end":9425.667,"text":"青蛙、藍蛙、純蛙的角落來教法、道修額 叫人抓到要花錢來鷺的角落來教法、道修額 也是叫人花錢叫人花錢 這個角分 角中要到三天"},{"start":9426.458,"end":9444.068,"text":"我跟委員報告你講的這件事情我也跟勞動部已經討論過了就是說我們現在的本身養殖的移工有沒有跟漁閥的移工這是兩類的所以你行政的人你如果要同時申請兩種那你這樣的話就可以隨時來交替這部分我已經跟勞動部"},{"start":9445.131,"end":9448.493,"text":"所以他們會做一個更進一步的一個解開這個相關的限制"},{"start":9468.937,"end":9471.96,"text":"有動手的時候 因為我們魚缸 魚沙 積量太多當退潮 豬腦骨才會曬出來 牠們一缸 牠們骨才會一缸所以我們天氣熱 但是牠們要出國 出海 處理土海的時候"},{"start":9489.478,"end":9501.084,"text":"生命要有教法來存在 才會活下去結果做教法 塞住你的記憶 起床了 要上床 抓到也是要開發 也是同樣這個問題所以這個問題 拜託我們國中要落重視一下要落重視一下 因為土耳其人真的很辛苦"},{"start":9516.556,"end":9537.062,"text":"我了解我大概應該是七月那時候六七月那時候就看到這個問題然後隨時也是跟勞動部討論所以我相信說在那邊你對疫情應該有緩緩的一個結果是啦 我是覺得柳總我不是需要的管理單位沒有清楚現場的這個運作什麼需要希望我們都能夠幫助市民來進出這部分可以放寬還是比較有彈性還有請多多"},{"start":9546.881,"end":9555.089,"text":"隨時有可能去運動才會發達發達啦這個國運再拜託我們國中更辛苦一點我們會來做好 再來一項就是我們鄉親議會94年開始執行我們這個地震、河汗執行的方案30年來"},{"start":9571.543,"end":9576.109,"text":"現在地震下降大概已經有很好的結果了因為"},{"start":9592.096,"end":9617.501,"text":"就是已經趨緩了它地層下陷的情況已經趨緩了114年的時候雲林地區沒有明顯顯著下降的面積下降的速度每一年超過3公分範圍裡面已經沒有顯著有這樣的情況了海線的部分包括麥寮、台西、口湖也沒有地層下陷的一些狀況我們會持續地"},{"start":9619.961,"end":9635.535,"text":"利用注水啦或等等的一些情況讓他這個可以改善不過我聽這個處理室的檢討過去封地結尾之前先告婦人關的地震下降的情形要求是幾多年持續顯示要求幾位這樣"},{"start":9646.363,"end":9672.131,"text":"但是我看到的狀況是這樣就是說剛剛提到的114年數那個量測的結果雲林地區如果顯著下降的就是他一年下降3公分我們叫做顯著下降基本上這樣情況在114年的時候已經沒有了那113年是有的113年就是前面那一年是有的但是114年今年"},{"start":9672.831,"end":9692.93,"text":"情況是已經沒有這樣的狀況就是一年下降三公分這樣的情況已經是沒有了我跟委員報告行政院還是會加強整個防治的力道我們在已經核定了一個雲章地區地層下限具體解決方案跟他的行動計畫的第二期這個第二期會從110到115"},{"start":9695.012,"end":9724.084,"text":"所以現在是在執行當中另外經濟部好像另外有一個防治的計劃他會從114到117這個叫地下水保育管理跟地下層下限防治的計劃這經濟部在做行政院是剛剛那個所以多頭並行一起來防治現在雖然已經有趨緩但是我們希望把它控制在一個更好的狀態之下我們日期的經費要再倒流下去二期的經費第二期的經費"},{"start":9725.93,"end":9734.977,"text":"你看 我們查一下第二期的經費二十億 我就改革這個地產法案或是說讓我們已經當這個海水道館這個農地可以活化 繼續夠農用"},{"start":9746.324,"end":9755.308,"text":"這次改良一定是有計策的所以在這裡要向議長告告婦人關這個地產行業的系統性大問題已經是國土安全的危機的問題"},{"start":9764.091,"end":9771.513,"text":"一方面利用各種風景的工作來減緩下降的這個速度另一方面已經下降骨力建造的區域也要想辦法來活化就是我剛才說的想要怎樣來改善做討好這個改良讓他們不是耕種區以來可以活化來建這個耕種區"},{"start":9795.066,"end":9814.783,"text":"所以剛剛院長有提到我們這個地下水保育的管理還有地層下限的防治計畫第四期就會開始持續來做那除了減少抽這個地下水之外事實上還會那個補"},{"start":9816.204,"end":9839.129,"text":"把它補進去啦 那個地下水還會補進去那還有一些管制 有一些地區式管制的尤其是高鐵沿線的這個重量的管制風機抽地下水喔對對對 現在就是我現在講的問題比較嚴重 海水倒灌的就是當沿海沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿"},{"start":9846.032,"end":9858.618,"text":"再來有方針啦 我們憲政院都有在出方針是你們要記得 我給你們提醒一下憲政院在今年幾月二月有設定一個營建勝利圖案最終去處規劃方案這個國防醫療應該會記得啦你不記得天海是不是對 我們也是要經過這個處理掉"},{"start":9875.99,"end":9883.277,"text":"處理過 我們一個海水漬 漬到這個地瓦的這個地區我們如果把它囤土 它會更好 會一樣會透起來 會透起來到頭頂我們如果有一個更積極的方式 像是頭頂用清氣土我們是不是可以繼續經營 是這個概念"},{"start":9903.206,"end":9914.953,"text":"是這個概念研究一下這個可以解決這個土方去化的問題可以解決當地的現象這可以解決這個土方的去化的過分所以在這裡各位請議長跟我們國長重視這個地產化寒的這個問題這段時間我去到我們沿海地區看到我們油農過去油農"},{"start":9932.711,"end":9956.766,"text":"的殘地因為地震下降現在頭頂都被海水擠掉了我們看得很不敢我們看得很不敢我們政府如果說有更好的措施可以來解決我相信我們的地主跟地方的政府都一定會非常樂意"},{"start":9958.236,"end":9967.064,"text":"所以在這裡拜託我們議長 拜託國長 讓大家好好恢復好 謝謝主席 感謝大家我們來祝福大家 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝丁委員謝謝主委長 下一位請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":9998.53,"end":10022.227,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請院長好 請卓院長備詢劉委員好院長好 院長今天是雙十一是你知道雙十一的問題主要在講什麼很多人去購物是不是對"},{"start":10023.53,"end":10046.08,"text":"電商平台的雙十一購物節就在今天那在中國淘寶、拼多等中國電商平台都會推出這個促銷方案不只對中國對台灣的民眾也推出很多的免運的這個方案然後這些裡面很多是肉品、凍植物、藥品這些國內禁運的商品也都有優惠"},{"start":10048.257,"end":10077.588,"text":"我在這個上個月10月30特別在未還召開這個專案報告要求農業部跟樹花署要針對有提供違建品的促銷業會平台必須強硬的屏蔽拒絕下架院長也特別有在院會垂詢的時候也有特別這樣的一個要求但實際上效果不是很理想我們要防這一波雙11的網購潮目前邊境有足夠的量能進行因應嗎"},{"start":10079.687,"end":10098.174,"text":"我們已經要求所有的人行李必須 貨物必須經過X光百分之百的檢驗同時人工查驗的部分要比過去至少增加20%這個當然會增加人力的配置我知道院長 院長是行動派的你在8日有特別到這個淘氣區去做這個視察"},{"start":10101.015,"end":10120.831,"text":"然後要求邊境查驗要零信任 對不對 沒有錯所以我覺得院長的行動力是很強的然後那個宣示也非常有Power但是你看 給院長看一個數據今年防檢署桃園機場邊境防疫作業協情保全能力共1.6億元 招聘230人計畫人力協助邊境機場"},{"start":10124.827,"end":10133.714,"text":"但是今年的7月以後再擴充30人10月以後再又擴充19人也因此今年的防檢署在桃園機場總共從230人增加49人達到279人應該沒有錯嗎"},{"start":10139.58,"end":10163.974,"text":"應該沒有錯吧?兩百四十九人,有一部分是為了第三航廈以後過來的部分對嘛,對,對,我們現在是高層對通機中了我們有七位車警察、十位車警察嘛,對不對不管你做什麼工作,他是邊境機察的重要的這些人員嘛那為什麼我們不能一步到位?為什麼不能一步到位?而且不是只有淘機啊"},{"start":10166.124,"end":10187.152,"text":"所以我只是提醒這一點全台灣有18個邊境的港口或者機場都是要一致性的去做一個防堵所以我是要提醒院長也提醒部長像這樣的一個人力基本上我們要一步到位也請院長能支持這樣的邊境查驗的人力務必"},{"start":10188.24,"end":10202.194,"text":"要一次到位然後經費要全力支持我那天講前兩項就是X光設備要正常人力補充要加強意思就是這樣子但招聘的過程不一定一次就能夠把需要的人力都補上來"},{"start":10202.95,"end":10224.855,"text":"不夠的再補 不夠的再補盡量把這個時程給它拉斷我當然知道現在要交聘人力也不是這麼簡單的事情不過當然這個都是在10月20日之前發生我們就把人力儘速補足嘛那我是希望明年我們的預算足夠我們的人力可以快速這麼多的邊境我們必須要讓人力就位啦"},{"start":10226.225,"end":10254.036,"text":"編制跟計算的緣額應該都是夠的我們在中間盡量把它加強好 謝謝然後這15天的這個進展經營之後我想台灣的豬肉市場目前正在呼出當中這也謝謝院長跟部長的積極的做出相關的應應但是我們補助的這個產業鏈的對象裡面有養豬螺民嘛 肉品市場毛豬的承銷人員等等等但怎麼只有這些對象而已嗎有啊 我們也有攤商也有屠宰場"},{"start":10255.087,"end":10257.029,"text":"現在公告這些產業鏈的對象為什麼載運土體的運輸業沒有補助為什麼波古斯沒有補助"},{"start":10272.557,"end":10289.891,"text":"背骨骰,一天聽話班買十頭,一頭兩百塊一天也要兩千,十五天你看他減碳多少阿滴,十五天沒得出現在十五天沒得出以後變大隻,賣起來的肚子要更多可能不掙還錢然後養豬,幾乎每一天有兩趟車一趟車可以載孕,載孕六隻、七隻頭,那兩趟"},{"start":10299.264,"end":10310.212,"text":"你可以算15天然後他這15天不只是載運租車的這些司機包含背骨塞通通歸零怎麼沒有把本人納入在補助對象裡面"},{"start":10311.321,"end":10337.884,"text":"我跟委員報告 你剛才說的北谷塞本身因為在屠宰場本身我們給他的一個補助其實就涵蓋了他所聘僱這些人另外一個就是你剛才說的土地運輸車跟毛豬的運輸車因為土地的運輸車很多都是食品業者去叫車的我們找不到對象但是毛豬的運輸車我們現在正在盤點在盤點看怎麼樣的方式去協助因為現在滴放出來以後"},{"start":10339.305,"end":10350.192,"text":"對於這個毛豬的運輸車他的載運的那個次數會變多啦但是我們還是會在滾動的檢討特別是毛豬運輸車的部分不知道能不能加快速度嗎"},{"start":10351.26,"end":10375.229,"text":"因為畢竟我們第一波的公告 隔到現在已經一個禮拜多了然後你剛剛講了說白骨骰有但是白骨骰有就不會很危險那白骨骰有去收到就不會對於我去發聲嘛這很簡單的例子嘛 對不對所以這個事情你要了解清楚要快速的因應嘛然後在院處之的是不是可以一個星期內把這樣的一個不管你找到找不到反正我們就是要積極像你們在整個因應"},{"start":10375.914,"end":10386.174,"text":"這個非洲豬瘟的過程裡面就是很快速的去做這樣處理所以不應該遺漏這些載運豬隻的這些司機們可以吧一個星期內"},{"start":10387.503,"end":10410.028,"text":"好 我們來檢討好 謝謝 謝謝部長王院長 我再請教你在114年的7月有正式核定中部精密智慧新核心的推動方案要打造中章雲頭成為全球精密智慧的新重鎮塑造中部成為全球領先的智慧製造中心這份方案中 我不曉得院長有沒有細看過"},{"start":10413.285,"end":10419.1,"text":"這個是我們在六大區域產業生活圈當中的一環從北到南到離島"},{"start":10420.063,"end":10445.763,"text":"到東部我們都有相關地方產業跟科技發展我知道 我特別是提到中部這一個因為中部本來就是我們精密製造的一個重鎮那我們希望把它加上智慧所以變成一個精密智慧的新核心它原來就是台灣的核心代表院長我看過嘛 院長要提醒一件事情有針對雲林 我的故鄉有提到生化智慧養殖價值鏈 這個很好"},{"start":10446.423,"end":10475.616,"text":"但是內容卻提到要結合地方的特色對的也對發展如斗六花卉產業本市是斗六人我是斗六出席的斗六孩子我也已經五十幾年了我也聽過斗六有花卉的產業怎麼會有這樣的一個計畫呈給院長 呈給部長中央要核定推動地方發展的這個四項計畫裡面如果連地方的產業都搞不清楚"},{"start":10476.702,"end":10485.138,"text":"發生這麼離譜極致的事情廣泛的發展智慧農業新興的智慧農業那個內容裡面寫得很清楚那個地方當然不是殘廢啊它不廢啊"},{"start":10488.482,"end":10509.04,"text":"所以我只是要提醒說怎麼會有這樣的一個計畫方案這個草案當時也是要層層的把關嘛 層層的審視嘛 對不對才承認院長你嘛 但是這個中間就出問題了嘛所以我是一個雲林的在地立委我要具體跟院長提出這個建立的一個修正好不好 請院長聆聽看看2006年的時候 中央"},{"start":10510.254,"end":10522.185,"text":"協助屏東成立的所謂的農業生物科技園區並訂下120家的廠家進駐到截至今年10月底喔已經116家進駐然後總統資額已經高達186億我為什麼用這個例子來講因為2006年中央在屏東設置農業生物科技園區然後"},{"start":10534.022,"end":10560.702,"text":"隔了20年 雲林的農業的產值 雲林農業的品質雲林農業相關的基礎 進步的建設不亞於屏東 池地灣同大宗啦 屏東第一啦池街營同大啦 第一是我們就對了啦所有的收購 加起來的顧菜市場一天可以提供全台47的供應量就對了他們屏東有 農業 生物科技園區為什麼雲林沒有"},{"start":10565.131,"end":10570.971,"text":"如果今天院長要打造一個中部機密的智慧新核心推動方案是不是可以"},{"start":10573.312,"end":10597.243,"text":"20年前的屏東農業生物的科技園區雲林是不是有這個機會我們朝這個方向來做研議來做研議讓AI導入到農業這都是大家一直在講的所以生技跟科技絕對有辦法成為雲林打造一個雙技的農業重鎮院長可以接受 承諾嗎來 研議吧"},{"start":10600.691,"end":10603.973,"text":"我們針對農業的相關的生技園區我們有一個全台灣的一個評估計畫包括雲林地區適合哪一種的生技園區在裡面去針對智慧農業的部分去重新去做一個評估"},{"start":10618.103,"end":10630.436,"text":"你不管哪一個縣市來去做相關的智慧的榮業評估因為你應該所重之重嘛因為畢竟它產量各項作物的產量還有序幕的產量都是大宗的嘛"},{"start":10631.182,"end":10652.681,"text":"對 屏東10年前可以為什麼雲林20年後沒有這個契機所以院長願不願意給這個機會交換下去研議吧農業的產業生技園區竟然是中央來主管那也需要地方能提出一些土地等等希望地方如果也有這樣的計畫那跟農業部我們一同跟地方來合作"},{"start":10653.201,"end":10676.146,"text":"我只是請求院長能不能接受我的建議 交代下去研議嗎當然可以 好 謝謝這個研議是不是一個月內就可以提出一些草案大家來討論嗎 可以吧我們大概從今年的3月就是針對全台灣的這些生意園區的這些適合的地點跟適合的產業但年底的時候應該可以有一個比較完整的報告"},{"start":10677.543,"end":10705.804,"text":"到年底我就看這個這個農業部提出來的報告之後再就叫我再提供我再提供謝謝好那行政院要推動這個中部精密智慧新核心的推動方案特別強調AI應用嘛就是包括AI的人才的培訓嘛對不對去年的6月11號一樣在垂巡台我感謝院長的支持也感謝郭前部長的承諾就是環球科技這個校舍30公頃12棟校舍至今"},{"start":10706.499,"end":10729.541,"text":"已經承諾也支持但是整個新辦計畫到現在沒有看到進一步的推動部長報告委員因為我們後來有評估過因為整個用的用地因為這個有30公頃但是如果我們用的話可能只有用其中一部分而已現在教育部又說"},{"start":10730.407,"end":10744.587,"text":"你全部都要用教育因為它是教育用的用途不能用其他的用途那這樣的話 即便我們進駐以後其他也都廢了你當國民書長 你有統合的能力教育部提出這個問題對你來講絕對不是問題"},{"start":10746.943,"end":10772.108,"text":"用多少的銷售再培訓人力其他部分可以做相關產業的這樣積極的一個部件 布局 人才的培訓部長你的能力絕對有辦法處理能不能加快速度能不能加快速度嘛好不好 我們就加快速度就好可不可以 一個月內我跟教育部來協商一個月內可以啦我時間有限啦 抱歉我剩兩分鐘而已部長就承諾吧 一個月內就是未來這個整體規劃啦好 謝謝 一個月內好 謝謝 最後"},{"start":10776.237,"end":10791.869,"text":"不好意思,我以為要抽時間,避寒鳳凰來了,願指示我安在剛剛我聽到部長有接受到委員的答覆因為今天彭部長不在這個地方,我們跟你歡呼說水會濕出來嗎?水滴會去賣嗎?布棚會補嗎?不好意思,不太輕鬆,他連不織布都沒有鋪"},{"start":10801.505,"end":10824.84,"text":"所以我才在衛環也召開一個專案報告我邀請環境部的副署長你不用來備詢了啦你就直接到台中去作證吧全部的規格通通不符合所以不是報判怕賠不是怕鎖匹來吃他就是不知不覺第一次起訴都沒有用這風太大後來這就中了"},{"start":10825.882,"end":10851.614,"text":"或是整個吹噴去 或是整個都去噴海就對了他不知是什麼我們的頭領 他要無緣搞什麼程度我們中央有事先的一些預防措施嗎我知道部長 陳部長很辛苦在那邊作證但這個事情是 不管是農業部有看到 環境部也有看到啊鳳凰要來啊 這家營業有沒有辦法在那裡安全 過關 我不清楚啦"},{"start":10852.216,"end":10875.867,"text":"但是確實他有太多在處理這個處於掩埋完全不符合規劃怎麼應應 簡單幾句話就好我跟委員報告有關於中央應變中心裡面的處於小組的前進應變所現在持續的每一天都在跟地方政府去要求然後看要怎麼樣去改善現在你所看到的這些現象"},{"start":10878.1,"end":10906.572,"text":"我是要提醒這件事情的原因就是說它不是只有簡單這兩件事情你們在現場你們在移民中心應該知道它完全不照SOP它完全不照規範現在放回來了這幾個隱埋的廚餘的這些地方會不會出問題出了問題的時候中央跟地方一樣都是要面對要去解決要概括承受所以我是最後要跟院長跟部長特別建議廚餘的事情我們要快速的因應"},{"start":10907.708,"end":10915.793,"text":"台塑可以幫於縣政府收穫這麼多的廚餘去做有機會我們為什麼不能擴大量能"},{"start":10937.267,"end":10956.735,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員 謝謝卓院長法院會現在在議場二樓貴賓席的是南非工商台灣訪問團我們歡迎他們到立法院來參訪下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢"},{"start":10969.006,"end":10972.629,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們行政院卓院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":10983.522,"end":11011.949,"text":"莊委員好廖長好我想本席今天的質詢將圍繞在整個產業的轉型到企業人權跟社會正義但是首先想從最近的一個關於價值的問題來請教卓院長就這兩天中國國民黨的黨主席也就是本院的前同事鄭麗文她出席了五零年代白色恐怖秋季追思的慰靈大會"},{"start":11013.129,"end":11037.474,"text":"那其中追思到了幾位其實一位最有名的就是被判定為白色恐怖時期共諜的一個叫吳石那這個地方我要來請教院長就是說對於在野的政黨領袖公開參與共諜的一個追思我不曉得你的看法怎麼樣那我相信國人同胞他一定會覺得說一邊"},{"start":11040.799,"end":11069.135,"text":"嘴巴講著反共保台一邊跑去追思共諜甚至於我們過去成長的背景裡面常常會看到好多標語保密防諜 人人有責講了好幾十年沒有蔣介石跟國民黨就沒有現在的一個台灣結果現在連蔣介石的誕成我看那個黨主席連一篇文他都懶得發但是寧願去幫共諜這樣做一個追思我不曉得"},{"start":11070.315,"end":11094.301,"text":"這個到底是哪一個版本的中國國民黨是台灣的國民黨還是北京的國民黨所以我要請教院長就是說你對於在野黨的領袖去公開的追思共諜這樣的這一場的追思會身為中華民國最高行政首長的卓院長你的態度看法怎麼樣"},{"start":11095.543,"end":11111.117,"text":"我表示遺憾因為一個中國國民黨的主席當他知道中國共產黨正在大力吹捧無實甚至要求他的涉台人員要學習無實精神的時候竟然不避諱的去參加這個組織所舉行的這個活動會讓我們覺得"},{"start":11116.441,"end":11138.96,"text":"跟民眾的距離太遙遠了尤其這幾天討論的熱度是非常高的但是仍然阻止不了中國國民黨主席去參加這個活動表示他不在乎社會的觀感不在乎歷史的定位也不在乎對岸用這個無實的精神要來加強對台灣統戰的事實跟人民的距離實在太遙遠了"},{"start":11140.137,"end":11157.533,"text":"我認為院長這樣的一個答覆是你個人是太過於厚道了我相信我們主席台上我認為我們連主席台上的副院長他一定會很大的一個感慨過去江啟臣副院長他也擔任過中國國民黨的一個黨主席"},{"start":11158.414,"end":11179.209,"text":"我想你會有一個感觸就是你過去說馬英九也好還是韓國瑜也好你至少你說在蔣介石的誕辰的時候你也去獻個花去吊雞一下甚至有的甚至跑去夜領起碼會維持一個歷史上的一致性但是看看現在的中國國民黨的黨主席"},{"start":11182.152,"end":11199.209,"text":"我看蔣介石的誕辰也隻字未提但是那是國民黨的家務事但問題是這轉身去向共諜致敬我看連蔣介石地下有知的話他會覺得他現在這些徒子徒孫他一定也不生虛虛但重點是"},{"start":11202.509,"end":11214.986,"text":"對於國人同胞的看法是說這樣的一個政黨反共的旗子還沒有放下你忠誠就先投降這個會導致整個國家的一個錯亂當院長就提到的"},{"start":11216.089,"end":11241.016,"text":"北京當然大催大家學習無恥的一個精神對北京來講共諜他從來就不是一個罪名甚至他都認為說共諜本來就是為他的祖國在效命但是相對對我們台灣而言這些人是在滲透我們的自由體制破壞我們民主社會的一個敵人所以本集要在這個地方提醒"},{"start":11242.017,"end":11261.578,"text":"當中國用經貿、宗教、媒體甚至文化在滲透台灣的時候其實在台灣的每一個角落我們有這樣的一個風險的時候台灣各個政黨的領袖的任務其實是捍衛整個國家的意識所以院長這樣的一個答覆我雖然"},{"start":11263.645,"end":11287.704,"text":"早上的答复我再说一次 我说共铁是要消灭国民党消灭中华民国的这是共铁的工作这跟我们所称的所谓政治犯思想犯是不一样的而且身为国民党主席他应该知道历史也知道现实当大陆中国正在大陆吹捧无时的时候他已经陷入这种统战的过程当中大陆加强统战的结果就会出现"},{"start":11288.164,"end":11312.336,"text":"所以保衛中華民國台灣主權跟安全的工作已經沒有辦法在由黨主席所帶領的中國國民黨身上看到他已經跟這個理念背道而馳了所以未來政府應該跟國內的所有自由民主的人士更加強對中華民國台灣主權安全的保障我們必須要堅持這個原則謝謝院長表達這樣嚴正的態度我們是不是接下來也請主席邀請我們國發會主委還有經濟部部長"},{"start":11316.787,"end":11329.404,"text":"經濟部部長 國安會主委請國安會主委今天請教副主委代理部長我想請教你一件大事"},{"start":11330.424,"end":11357.75,"text":"我們捷安特被美國查過貨品這應該你知道這個是我們台灣第一次企業因為勞權的問題被美方來把貨品給扣住了這個不是企業倒楣我都認為這是國家品牌我們很重大的一個危機美國的海關說捷安特去採到了強迫勞權11項指標裡面的5項這不是小事情"},{"start":11358.89,"end":11384.429,"text":"這個是一個國際上的警訊事情一發生以後業者他跑去跟我們外交部我相信也有跟你們經濟部還有勞動部來求助甚至於拜訪監察院我在司法法治委員會的在質詢的時候我還特別要求我們的監察院不要我們業者受苦受難的時候從後面再去補刀這個代表"},{"start":11385.86,"end":11413.41,"text":"業者來求助的時候是他們慌了但重點是說我們政府能幫他們什麼我要請教部長說我們經濟部現在實際上去介入協助了什麼有沒有一個跨部會的機制一起來幫企業釐清事實來改善我們自己國內的一個企業的制度保安委員因為他這一個算是一個個案那事實上美方之前馬上有跟我們有過說"},{"start":11415.899,"end":11436.797,"text":"知道這件事情但是我們也跟美方有討論過這個東西他們強調是個案我們也嘗試聯繫說據道他們也想說我們怎麼樣去跟美方來做說明所以我們也跟美方表達然後也幫他們介紹了律師怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":11438.001,"end":11464.195,"text":"美方也明顯的告訴我們因為這個是個案是他個案跟美方的邊境管制局的兩兆希望我們政府先不要急著介入但是我們有幫他們說後來巨大也跟美國的已經有見面了已經也做了說明了因為他這個只是暫時處分最後結果還沒有判定"},{"start":11465.356,"end":11485.719,"text":"本席認為這件事情非同小可不要小看他你去把他看看這個最壞的情況會是什麼你對一間這麼大的企業想就營收65%你一個貨卡在那個地方二到三年光捷安特一家可能就蒸發掉30億這個影響到的都不是只有這家公司"},{"start":11486.961,"end":11506.702,"text":"還有他整條供應鏈都會被拖下去喔現在TBA的工會已經在動美利達也準備要去改善那我們是希望說剛剛部長你這樣的回答那當然是有一點很圓融像因應美方美國政府的一個要求可以把事情給解決掉這也是一個方法但是呢"},{"start":11507.683,"end":11524.211,"text":"政府你說不動起來看企業自己在那個地方救火本席還是表達很擔心這個只是美國你看你接下來歐盟CSDDD上路人權就是新時代的貿易的一個通行證你現在不只美國"},{"start":11525.071,"end":11539.934,"text":"歐盟現在也動起來了你說去年通過一個新的指令企業永續盡責調查的一個指令就是本席剛提到的CSTDD白話講就是說把供應鏈的人權跟環保的要求寫進法律2027年就要上路"},{"start":11540.675,"end":11553.687,"text":"就是說台灣的企業只要你接了蘋果Apple或者Nike這些大品牌的你通通要遵守這套法規這個不是一個選擇題這個到最後是一個強制的我們自己對這個國際新的規範現在的還有2027年就要去上路的"},{"start":11567.369,"end":11585.376,"text":"我們有什麼樣的一個未雨綢繆我相信我們政府會有自己的一個時程你像比如說我們從114年開始啊營收超過500億的製造業上市貴公司你開始要做人權的盡責的一個調查你116年起成果要公開在永續的一個報告書上但是呢"},{"start":11586.448,"end":11601.204,"text":"本市要強調就是說我們不能出事之後那開始在補破案沒有 報告委員我剛才講雖然剛剛講巨案是一個個案沒有錯但是通案的部分我們已經跟勞動部要協商怎麼樣來因應所謂的強迫勞動這個議題強迫勞動它的範圍蠻廣的"},{"start":11604.527,"end":11632.077,"text":"對台灣來講的話很多我們是立即就可以改善比如說職場的環境等等公安等等的一些情況但是最主要還是移工的問題我們現在遇到的問題我們本國勞工比較沒有問題是移工的問題移工現在比較麻煩就是仲介費的問題因為仲介費是對方國的仲介拿走但是對全世界來講他還是覺得說你雇主要全部負責"},{"start":11633.464,"end":11635.785,"text":"謝謝部長院長我要提的就是說政府應該是當企業的靠山"},{"start":11649.222,"end":11668.421,"text":"這一些大型企業捷安特巨大的在台灣或者算國際上都算非常有名的他企業都已經夠大了那很多產品他還不是他自己做他還是有很多供應鏈那政府我所謂的當企業的靠山就是說那底下那些供應鏈"},{"start":11669.582,"end":11697.042,"text":"你說巨大你說捷安特你說美利達我達到我自己的這些人權的一個指標了那底下的供應鏈呢我的意思就是說政府尤其是我們經濟部對這些中小企業該輔導的部分我們要為與籌謀要準備好不然新的制度上路以後啊我相信啊這個都是我們不是只有企業的危機啊到最後變台灣品牌的一個危機請院長簡單的一個答案"},{"start":11698.743,"end":11702.983,"text":"我們剛剛提到人權是國際貿易的一張門票這個我非常認同"},{"start":11704.244,"end":11729.996,"text":"沒有達到這個人權的要求我們要跟國際進到國際社會都很困難況且要談到競爭這是第一個部分第二個雖然這個案件剛剛部長講這是單一的事件但我願意政府願意從單一事件來做全面性的檢討請經濟部勞動部就所有的勞動條件跟他的勞動的保障要做全面性的檢討也希望也提出一個指引讓大家可以共同遵守為什麼現在我們第三個部分就是"},{"start":11730.376,"end":11757.266,"text":"我們現在有推出一個企業與人權的國家行動計畫第二期這個就是要生產者跟他的供應鏈都要達到人權的標準所以我們當中有個企業實施人權禁止的調查這個調查非常重要我們會分公司的大小分層次按部就班循序漸進的來要求但總結最後就是達到委員說的那句話人權的標準要達到國際的標準我們才能夠順利進到國際的市場"},{"start":11759.573,"end":11762.7,"text":"謝謝院長那我為什麼請瓜輝主委上來我記得"},{"start":11764.362,"end":11788.828,"text":"經濟部長 工部長在當國會主委的時候我在院會質詢的時候我就對於我們整個少子化的部分我就一直在追問過了兩次那我國少子女化的對策計畫從107年到114年要搞了啦 存一個月而已啦也就是說我們這個八年的人口政策接近尾聲了其實這個分數不及格啦"},{"start":11789.673,"end":11818.855,"text":"不及格了政府沒有辦法去強迫人家生但是呢我們看到了很多狀況你說我在鄉下我看了很多學校合併社區老化為什麼會這樣小紅旗嘛你看像你看現在全台出生人口預估13萬創新低連台東人口跌破21萬出生是死亡的五分之一"},{"start":11821.119,"end":11843.165,"text":"2014年日本首相安倍提出地方創生他們2015年是地方創生元年我們2019年我們也是地方創生元年日本抓30年我當然現在我們才幾年的時間我們不敢期待看到巨大的一個效果可是我們現在都辦了活動居多了少子化他不是生的少"},{"start":11844.246,"end":11868.043,"text":"而更是留不住也回不來對鄉下來講就是這樣子那我要請教院長跟國會我們下一起的規劃是這樣的問題我們不要一直停留在補貼你像比如說你現在要人口政策應該進一步應該是引人回流吸引人才來你們現在有一個叫數位游牧新型人口的一個政策"},{"start":11868.863,"end":11886.557,"text":"也已經核定了你是三大據點台北台南跟台東我要講的就是說你這個執行的重心如果都偏向活動的話你很難達到這個效果了你說你至少要有一個中長期的KPI去追蹤留台人數跟你整個創業的一個轉"},{"start":11916.139,"end":11916.559,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":11934.11,"end":11952.302,"text":"李博義委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄看登公報報告院會經濟組之質詢已詢答完畢上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行財政組之質詢現在休息"},{"start":21557.401,"end":21568.51,"text":"好 抱怨會 我們繼續開會進行財政組諮詢總院長 各位閣議員 列席閣議員 大家午安首先我們請林德福委員諮詢葛如君委員請準備"},{"start":21598.89,"end":21616.481,"text":"大會主席韓院長還有行政院卓院長以及所有我們包括財政部所有的單位是不是請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢還有我們這個莊部長麻煩請財政部長備詢林委員好"},{"start":21629.296,"end":21644.593,"text":"因為媒體報導財化法修法的版本正由行政院副院長鄭麗君來召集所有部會來討論當中全面盤點一般性補助款"},{"start":21645.934,"end":21659.606,"text":"那這個整個計畫刑補住款等等那我請問院長因為行政院針對財化法修法的版本是我有預定送進立法院的最後實現有沒有"},{"start":21660.809,"end":21682.927,"text":"跟委員報告現在行政院所在討論的不只是一般性補助款我們是很著原來的財發法跟現行財發法對各縣市地方政府造成的影響在哪裡尤其現行財發法地方均衡不夠所以我們是整個更宏觀的來考量那目前呢包括"},{"start":21684.099,"end":21712.567,"text":"財政部包括主計總署會折時間在跟地方政府的財主人員在做進一步的溝通之後我們會在或許或許下禮拜我們就會在行政院來正式的討論之後就送請大院來進行審議院長事不宜拖啦你認為最晚的時候將財化法送到哪時候送到立法院來因為你們討論以後我本來的要求是在"},{"start":21713.802,"end":21729.751,"text":"這個會期之前那我們會盡快的在準備妥當的時候會適時的來提出我們現在朝越快的準備越好因為我知道這個大會裡面也有相關的修法那如果能夠同時或者是能夠相併來討論的話會更為周延"},{"start":21732.392,"end":21744.025,"text":"因為要是如果沒有什麼期限那我請問你認為現階段整個事權劃分不明確的情況下會不會類似像美國政府整個停擺的狀況會出現你認為會不會"},{"start":21747.827,"end":21765.113,"text":"當然不希望出現這個問題不過即使現在財法法的修法經過大院審議之後對明年的中央政府總預算也起不了新的作用他應該著眼在後年的未來的中央政府總預算跟地方的補助才能夠應用更新的一個財法法的修法"},{"start":21765.954,"end":21784.372,"text":"因為在野黨去年有推動財化法修法的時候有催促行政院版但是行政院卻辭職沒有提出來那本席當時質疑財政部是不是提不出來還是我們左院長要求不提結果"},{"start":21785.413,"end":21799.154,"text":"院長卻回答說現行的版本就是最好的版本那我請問院長為什麼在野黨去年在推動修法前你堅持原來的版本是最好的版本我修正一下我說"},{"start":21800.56,"end":21827.217,"text":"原來的財化法是實行起來最有把握的版本那去年12月20號大院在表決的時候那一個禮拜陷入到一個這個協調的困難期因為發生了種種的事情所以行政的立場沒有辦法透過執政黨黨團在協商當中來提出這個是當初的一個遺憾我們是有準備好版本的所以內容我們在經過修正之後會落實在現在"},{"start":21828.678,"end":21834.103,"text":"包括財政部 包括主義總署來在研擬新的財化法的精神裡面"},{"start":21834.602,"end":21858.738,"text":"因為那個卓院長如果原來的版本是最好的版本那現在像政府院長他就不必再找這些部會首長來討論提出行政院的版本其實那時候我們是要求希望行政院能夠提版本一併進去討論但是當下這個行政院跟財政部真的沒有提出來院長也許你是"},{"start":21860.159,"end":21888.124,"text":"或是執政黨的支持者會把現行財化法出現有一些瑕疵難行的地方刻意把它凸顯放大來檢視但是本席要強調的是如果沒有本黨在立法院積極來反映全國多數的民意推動各界正式的財化法修法的急迫性和必要性那我請問院長民進黨"},{"start":21890.269,"end":21903.207,"text":"執政的行政院會願意主動來回應多數民意提出財化法的修正版本嗎這個委員恐有誤會在去年12月20號大院表決之前等一下可以請莊部長"},{"start":21905.293,"end":21922.947,"text":"回答在那個表決之前行政院跟各地方以及我們內部經過了多少次的討論當時的狀況我們請中部長來回答其實我認為那個也不必因為我們在財委會裡面有討論過你們要是有提出來到時候可以併進去大家來研商看怎麼做最理想"},{"start":21923.968,"end":21940.339,"text":"中央跟地方是要合作當初表決之前那一個禮拜因為院裡面發生了一些意識上的爭執所以沒有辦法進入到協商行政的立場是通過執政黨黨團要在協商提出但是沒有機會提出那個卓院長"},{"start":21941.119,"end":21962.222,"text":"就好比普發現金一萬元好了民進黨立院黨團這個行政院起初也是反對到底啊到最後風向球又改變這個變成同意甚至於現在連主計總署官員也說隨著普發現金一萬元上路啊應可以發揮刺激整個內需的一個效果"},{"start":21963.343,"end":21981.86,"text":"有助於拉抬第四季的民間消費的表現那我請問院長執政黨當初不分青紅皂白扣在野黨的帽子現在反過來蹭政策紅利的熱度這是對全民負責的態度嗎我們當初的想法是我們不舉債"},{"start":21982.941,"end":21998.814,"text":"用稅計剩餘就可以因應這一次的中央政府總預算跟特別預算但是在大院表決的時候卻一再希望行政院能夠補發現金對於行政院不舉債的這個用心完全不被重視"},{"start":21999.554,"end":22028.303,"text":"所以與其如此行政院就衡量大院所通過的那個特別條例2350億是不足以來補發現金所以我們調整的內容變成2360億所以這個是依照行政院調整之後也用了舉債的方式增加政府舉債的方式才有辦法來因應所以這個部分是我們在公共政策財政這個紀錄上面的一個考量所以是行政院的版本那個卓院長當初"},{"start":22030.29,"end":22042.339,"text":"在野黨要求普發現金一萬元主要就是因為連續好幾年我們都知道稅收超徵連續四年超徵了一兆八千多億不是超徵是時徵數超過預算數"},{"start":22044.048,"end":22069.848,"text":"對啊 你確實啊很明顯的是行政院不是不能提財化法修法的版本而是去年卓院長的最好版本的說法本席解讀看起來就像是不願意把二十多年來二十幾年來未修訂的財化法重新客觀來檢討中央地方政府應該要進行財政的改革院長 副秘書長"},{"start":22071.383,"end":22089.275,"text":"阮昭雄說這個裁判法修法版本以和執政黨立院黨團取得一定的共識但草案到立法院後是我獲得立委的認同多數立委的認同是一個很大的一個挑戰那我請問院長"},{"start":22090.376,"end":22116.577,"text":"行政院這次的財化法修法的版本有沒有獲得多數地方政府的共識這個很重要你剛剛有講那你認為要怎麼樣才能獲得多數立委認同的修法我覺得最重要的是當全國所有的縣市都放在公平的立場上沒有誰最優越也沒有六都直轄市那麼優越最優越"},{"start":22117.498,"end":22135.691,"text":"而這個縣市全部放在公平的角度上來計算地方的均衡這樣才能得到所有縣市的支持目前我們新的財發法就是往這個方向在做因為今天到這個會期 研會結束只剩兩個半月"},{"start":22136.909,"end":22154.629,"text":"那院長 財政部莊部長曾說估計啊年底前會送出行政院修法的版本希望立法院能夠在這個會期啊能夠三讀通過那我請問院長您怎麼看我剛剛說過我希望在"},{"start":22155.666,"end":22169.999,"text":"這個會期就能夠結束之前就能夠通過現在我要看財政部主計總署跟各縣市的財主單位談的結果如果達到一致的話我們會把時程提前或許下禮拜我們就會進行正式的討論我希望"},{"start":22171.101,"end":22186.038,"text":"這個就是要積極啦然後多溝通然後有問題提出來怎麼解決能不能請部長談一下他如何積極溝通是 跟委員說明有關財化法的部分在水平分配的部分財政部已經召開了四次會議"},{"start":22187.099,"end":22212.747,"text":"那在最近一次也在10月的時候邀請地方政府來開會像相關的指標還有權重已經獲得大部分的縣市能有共同的共識而且我們在人口也好土地面積也好在計算上更為細緻更為細緻也就是說人口上我們因為老年人口或幼年人口需要更多的服務以及土地面積裡面要分別土地的種類譬如說農牧用地建築用地林業用地都要有不同的一個權數"},{"start":22213.707,"end":22232.82,"text":"所以這個部分可以均衡城鄉的一個差距而且這一次修法的目標很明確第一個就是我們的國民的生活品質要能夠更均衡不管他在城市還是鄉村然後垂直的分配要更合理中央跟地方財政都要能夠有合理性還有我們的水平分配要更公平"},{"start":22233.48,"end":22247.476,"text":"能夠讓各縣市都得到相同的一個支持還有地方自治要更能夠強化我們擴大他們的財政自主但地方自治也要能夠強化還有中央跟地方夥伴關係要更能夠提升我想中央跟地方都是一個夥伴的關係"},{"start":22248.858,"end":22267.158,"text":"這是我們的一個修法我希望在最短的時間裡面能夠取得就是大家能夠認同接受院長因為明年編列AI新十大建設預算有311億元那你曾說這是未來國家發展的重中之重"},{"start":22268.64,"end":22290.978,"text":"8月下旬經濟部長龔部長也接受聯合報的專訪也說明年開始要推動AI新時代建設希望把AI相關的技術導入百工百業讓產業升級轉型就本席了解產業轉型是指國家地區或產業透過整個系統性的調整"},{"start":22291.698,"end":22305.597,"text":"其產業的結構將傳統或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值的產業的過程那我請問院長產業轉型或升級"},{"start":22309.441,"end":22327.681,"text":"是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎既然要導入百工百業你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位或促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎你的看法呢謝謝委員的支持我們的AI新十大建設"},{"start":22329.246,"end":22353.399,"text":"大致上分做三個區塊第一個是智慧運用第二個是關鍵技術第三個是數位計盤那明年是一開始第一年的預算我們統合一開始初期當然預算沒有辦法編到那麼多因為很多在計劃過程當中那未來逐年會是適時的需要而增加那我希望明年的311億我們真的是用在讓他能夠順利起步無論是"},{"start":22354.219,"end":22379.019,"text":"智慧運用或是關鍵技術或是數位機盤這三大部分都能在AI新十大建設的十大項裡面都能夠開始發展我認為這未來二十年三十年影響台灣在國際關鍵技術上面的尤其是高科技領先地位上面能不能繼續保持這樣的優勢要接軌AI相關的技術百工百業的建制成本你認為我們都準備好了嗎"},{"start":22380.222,"end":22397.211,"text":"我們現在開始從AI新時代建設來做統合其實我們的科技預算經費當然是更大但有的是原來的計畫在進行當中我們先把它挪一部分在AI新時代建設就啟動一個新時代的科技建設計畫"},{"start":22398.992,"end":22418.289,"text":"面對美國新聞新關稅的這些政策市場的競爭行政院要推動AI新十大建設人工智慧對於提升產業競爭力有非常大的幫助那我請問院長百工百業導入AI相關技術會不會發生"},{"start":22420.811,"end":22435.751,"text":"人力排擠的效應會不會反而導致某些產業甚至於人力被淘汰萬一人力排擠淘汰甚至於產業走向黃昏請問院長政府有沒有想過到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":22436.852,"end":22465.083,"text":"我們AI新時代建設的終極目標是希望成立進入到一個全民智慧的生活網那過程當中我們有十大項其中有一項也是AI人才的培育跟資金的投入所以這個都是在整個配套過程當中的我們對於我們如何在現在硬體製造方面的領先我們繼續往軟體讓他能夠有一個登峰的一個企劃這個是AI新時代建設那將來當然會造成一些產業上的轉型跟升級"},{"start":22465.723,"end":22490.964,"text":"那這個都在我們規劃當中我們會有一些像我們在數月羈盤當中就有一個產業科技均衡的一個項目我希望這個院長這邊你們要做就是要好好的要細密一點的規劃你不要到時候這裡好那結果很多這個百工百業甚至很多人力就沒有辦法去"},{"start":22492.765,"end":22508.678,"text":"去做他們原來應該要做的我們會協助中小微企業進行它的轉型這個是必要的人力跟科技的轉型數位的轉型都必要我是認為這一點是很重要不要說只顧這裡沒有顧到其他面向結果造成很多問題變成衍生社會的問題產生"},{"start":22510.519,"end":22530.745,"text":"AI實在有AI的問題那我們會事先做一些防範轉型是必然的過程當中事前一定要好好細密的規劃好不好謝謝也請委員能夠支持這樣的一些建設計畫謝謝林德福委員質詢謝謝卓院長財政部長貝馨謝謝接下來我們請葛如軍委員質詢黃珊珊委員請準備"},{"start":22543.926,"end":22550.389,"text":"好謝謝院長有請行政院卓院長以及央行楊總裁麻煩再請卓院長中央銀行備詢各位好"},{"start":22562.096,"end":22583.883,"text":"院長好我想剛剛很高興您提到了這個AI還有軟體發展的方向也謝謝行政院在8月28號把AI基本法的草案送進來那AI軟體很顯然一定就是數位金融跟虛擬世界的發展在未來可能有非常多新的業態會出現也希望行政院可以一起來討論"},{"start":22585.043,"end":22611.252,"text":"那央行在今年的3月份出了一份關於比特幣作為央行準備資產或國家戰略儲備分析的報告在這個報告裡面可以明顯的看出來在去年3在今年3月的時候央行對比特幣戰略儲備是持相對負面的態度比如說國際間還沒有國家將比特幣納入數位資產的準備或者缺乏安全性和流動性不過"},{"start":22611.932,"end":22641.25,"text":"事實上幾個月過後啊全世界的發展就已經和這份報告截然不同我們先看一下下面這個投影片這是美國各州比特幣戰略儲備的狀況其中新罕布夏州亞利桑那州德州都已經在五六月通過法案正在進行中的和提議的更有高達18週那川普總統呢也很明確的宣示了比特幣戰略儲備的方向那我們看一下央行所在意的安全性流動性來看我也幫您整理了"},{"start":22641.65,"end":22661.995,"text":"德意志銀行在10月18號的時候就明確做出了分析還有研究報告說比特幣的戰略性配置會成為現代金融安全的新基石有可能變成像20世紀的黃金兩種資產都極有可能在2030年以前出現在各國央行的資產負債表"},{"start":22662.955,"end":22679.401,"text":"在這裡我要強調是兩種黃金跟比特幣數位貨幣或數位資產並不是互相排斥的他是可以共融的那現在呢比特幣的波動啊事實上已經創歷史新低本席兩週之前呢有就這個議題詢問過央行的朱副總裁"},{"start":22680.341,"end":22695.286,"text":"當時朱副總表示會持續研議評估那想先請教一下楊總裁您看到這幾個月世界的轉變央行對於所謂的虛擬資產的戰略儲備還是像這樣的一個相對負面還是反對的嗎研究評估的怎麼樣是的 報告委員"},{"start":22701.869,"end":22715.999,"text":"德意志銀行他說是在2030年我覺得2030年這個是5年我覺得還是有一點遠很好 您覺得很遠待會我們現在就來看一下事實上"},{"start":22717.14,"end":22746.372,"text":"我先講院長其實一邊在聽我相信院長也有一邊在正向的思考我先回應一下也許大家的顧慮就是說有這麼多種的貨幣會不會有些風險新罕布下週是確保說要超過市值5000億美元的才來考慮作為戰略的儲備同時安全性上面也有一些分散的資料中心或者國家級的儲備方案那相關的這些安全等等的其實都有解決的方案"},{"start":22746.812,"end":22763.026,"text":"那您說2030年以前那我要告訴總裁也告訴院長事實上這個需要對台灣來講是特別重要的為什麼在先前我們看到今年2月底央行朱副總到立法院報告的時候就透露過我們的外匯存底有高達92%是美債"},{"start":22765.968,"end":22790.773,"text":"相對的我們美元走弱台幣對美元升值的話實質購買力就會下降金管會的報告也提到今年1到8月的銀行業就因為台幣升值的影響稅前盈餘本來是這個應該可以到8000億的現在只剩下6000億叫去年同期減少了2000億我想在這裡還是要問一下卓院長我們要防患未然未雨綢繆啊"},{"start":22792.213,"end":22820.295,"text":"這個總裁說2030年的事情我們可以緩著做但是我待會還有很多的數據那現在美國已經在做了院長您作為行政團隊的大家長我們現在的資產整個產業高度押注在美元而美國現在又在推動多元儲備也就是有數位資產的戰略儲備您有沒有什麼樣的想法跟策略或者比如說能不能更加積極正面的考量像比特幣戰略儲備這樣的一個做法"},{"start":22821.343,"end":22838.523,"text":"美元是今天全世界通行計價的一個基準這個是沒有錯但是我們是不是有92%這個高的數字整個總裁說明一下這是朱副總裁當時透露的事後我們也有澄清沒有到92%是算錯了還是講錯了"},{"start":22840.565,"end":22858.002,"text":"是他看錯了就算不是92%我們也是高比例的依賴美元當然 我們這個比例是比較高物質是比較高 非常高所以您的回應就是我們沒問題嗎您能不能再更積極的考量一下比特幣戰略儲備總裁能夠說明正確的數字"},{"start":22861.545,"end":22882.274,"text":"另外就是對這種新興的創新新創的金融商品我們都應該用開放的態度去看它很好所以希望比特幣這個是我們如果它能夠在交易安全數位安全能夠比現在更有把握的話我認為我們可以用另外更開放的態度來看比特幣同時台灣也應該有自己的一套機制"},{"start":22882.774,"end":22896.991,"text":"太好了謝謝院長所以能不能在年底以前再提供一份詳細而且要正反並成不要只是相對負面的報告比特幣戰略儲備或數位資產戰略儲備的報告給社會大眾了解一下院長可不可以拜託您在這裡就正面的承諾"},{"start":22899.114,"end":22919.832,"text":"我想要就是说年底之前给一文报告我们可以我们可以太好了谢谢杨总裁给您跟院长都按一个赞那主动购入的这个虚拟资产储备还需要一些报告跟研究的时间但是有一件事情我也跟院长分享是现在就可以做的我们可以先持有比特币"},{"start":22920.112,"end":22938.174,"text":"不一定要主動積極的購入這可以之後討論你看一下頭影片這是去年幾大持有比特幣國家的這些相關的資訊比特幣其實在這些國家都是透過沒收犯罪而來的其中烏克蘭還有一些是透過於網路的一些募捐"},{"start":22938.775,"end":22958.611,"text":"那我們台灣這幾年啊2023到2025年呢我們也找了資料也有一些法拍虛擬貨幣的新聞其中您看一下這個2024年的新聞哈新聞上寫4.5億的時候啊比特幣一顆是7萬美元現在比特幣一顆是11萬美元啊當時如果這批比特幣或者現在沒有拍賣的話"},{"start":22959.532,"end":22979.568,"text":"這其實對我們國庫的潛藏的這些所謂的潛力很可能已經超過6億多那本席非常清楚了解相關的市場任何的資產都不可能永遠的向上他一定有可能有回落的時候但是我也希望整體來講大家可以上網了解一下"},{"start":22980.568,"end":23005.903,"text":"這樣子的一個資產為什麼各國要先趕快部署相關的法令並且早一點的來持有其實也就是因為未來很可能是我們在資產依賴上對於其他的國家貨幣主權過度依賴上的一個很好的對沖啊尤其啊我們現在又非常大規模的去持有美元計價的資產但是啊川普啊"},{"start":23006.263,"end":23034.682,"text":"在11月6號的時候正式發布美國自己要成為比特幣的超級大國所以我想請教一下卓院長我們現在就算不能立刻把它納入我們能不能退一步去討論一下向其他國家學習沒收而來不需要返還的這些虛擬貨幣我們能不能持續的持有有國家級的解決方案處理安全性的問題這一點您可以不用太擔心我想請教一下有沒有機會來討論"},{"start":23036.623,"end":23059.797,"text":"我相信美國川普總統的任何一個重大的政策決定不僅影響到國內對國際上也會產生相當大的影響像川普總統對比特幣這種比較開放而且直接的態度會影響到比特幣在各國之間或許未來的流通或許未來的保值等等那這個部分央行應該有進入密切的一個觀察"},{"start":23060.137,"end":23078.084,"text":"好謝謝所以實際上希望能夠到現在能不能請院長來承諾一下我們能不能先至少盤點一下目前持有的數量說不定我們持有的還真不少剛剛我們看到300萬美金的等值的比特幣就可以排到世界前十了"},{"start":23078.644,"end":23097.699,"text":"這是我們中華民國對數位經濟的準備也是我們跟美國站在同一隊的決心院長能不能指示相關部會年底前調查一下給大家一個答案現在我們持有的比特幣的數量到底是多少我要先了解我們有沒有辦法實際上掌握國內的這些狀況"},{"start":23098.559,"end":23110.347,"text":"我講的是這個我們司法體系沒收而來的我們講的是沒收的不是台灣國內持有的我們的政府單位沒收在國庫裡面的比特幣可以嗎調查一下如果是已經"},{"start":23111.991,"end":23135.696,"text":"合法依法沒收而來的過去都要拍賣啦依法持有的政府依法持有的盤點一下好不好這邊我們應該有資料我認為盤點是必要我可以這樣說年底前給大家一個答案討論完了虛擬資產的價值也想跟院長討論一下虛擬資產的法制面因為我們要安全要安心請教一下這個金管會主委謝謝"},{"start":23137.136,"end":23161.894,"text":"那我也要跟院長表達一下金管會央行在近期對於這個數位資產的開放性我們絕對是予以肯定的那金管會有非常多同仁給了很多的幫助那關於VASP的專法其實金管會是一個正面的態度但是6月27號報院以後到現在還是沒有送到立法院各界都非常的關心已經到五個月了還沒有送來我們之前詢問"},{"start":23162.975,"end":23191.788,"text":"其實各個部會的回答呢稍微有點模糊現在美國的GENIUS法案CLARITY的法案日本官方的JPYC穩定幣都要出來了香港新加坡在法制也已經完善了我們什麼時候為什麼會拖這麼久還沒有送過來有沒有一個相關的時間的預期讓業者可以好準備是跟委員報告一下其實我們6月27要送進來因為這個其實像是個新的法案我們政委已經審過兩次因為很多要"},{"start":23193.072,"end":23212.788,"text":"要送回我們這邊跟各界再溝通我們去送回去對不起我很佩服您可是您可不可以我時間有限能告訴我這個會期是這個會期下個會期也沒有關係因為業者需要時間跟心理的準備啊有沒有一個預期啊院長我看您笑而不答大家可能在等您指示啊是沒有指示還是有沒有預期"},{"start":23214.532,"end":23226.286,"text":"進入到一個數位的虛擬貨幣時代我們初出進入到這個世界裡面來我覺得一切的建制我們要學習更周延的一些規範所以儘管會謹慎是對的"},{"start":23229.342,"end":23257.06,"text":"我想我要讓大家了解一下這個事情真的是疑數不疑詞為什麼事實上因為我們的VASP專法如果通過了還有8個執法要訂定裡面的穩定幣更是非常的重要不知道院長有沒有看過這張圖左邊是實體經濟各國的貨幣非常的豐富但是在右邊的虛擬經濟全球穩定幣美元的占比高達近9成"},{"start":23257.54,"end":23278.309,"text":"已經幾乎是壟斷性的地位了這會影響到貨幣的主權所以為什麼全世界各個國家甚至歐盟積極的要推出他們的國家穩定幣就在這裡所以這不是說我要很審慎然後沒有消息我們看到日本歐盟都非常非常的清楚所以這一點我就想請教一下"},{"start":23278.849,"end":23302.449,"text":"我們現在卓院長您說我們要做亞洲資產中心我先講我並沒有反對或支持特定處理穩定幣的方式但是我想要確認一下到底什麼時候因為Facebook的法案裡面就有一個章節是穩定幣現在各國都已經上線了我們現在還在審慎我理解審慎但是院長有沒有預期這個會期 下個會期"},{"start":23306.135,"end":23311.338,"text":"穩定幣是我們進入到一個虛擬世界的一個途徑所以我們現在已經不僅是虛擬我們在穩定幣這個議題上面我們也已經進入到討論所以這個部分我們討論很久我現在要問的是時間院長不好意思"},{"start":23322.97,"end":23337.71,"text":"有沒有時間 跟委員報告一下剛剛那個我們送進行政院我們現在已經把所有準備工作應該很快會來開會剛剛那個執法部分我們不會等母法這邊才做我們現在已經全力在推動這些執法的立法好 謝謝主委我想我們一起來努力"},{"start":23338.331,"end":23360.801,"text":"那接下來雖然還有點時間我就希望能夠帶VASP的這個相關的新創業者要說說話因為創新AI軟體數位金融這都是我們的下一波的力量那我想請教一下其實目前金管會這個相關的規範其實有提到金融機構德金金管會的規定兼營虛擬資產的業務"},{"start":23362.802,"end":23389.345,"text":"其不僅能託管加密貨幣推出加密交易的服務甚至還能優先發行穩定幣如此一來有很多的VASP的業者辛辛苦苦的做了各種的法尊做了很多的創新然後又符合安全結果金融機構很可能只需要金管會點個頭就可以兼營甚至優先發行這會不會有一種太獨厚傳統機構我沒有要替任何一個人講話但是我希望給各位看一下這個圖"},{"start":23390.466,"end":23413.844,"text":"這是接下來的數位經濟是大家一起合作儘管會做管理也不要忘記發展銀行有信用跟穩定但VASP業者其實有很好的技術跟創新有沒有可能未來專法上路的時候金融機構兼營沒有問題但是可不可以多鼓勵一些金融機構和VASP既有的這八家九家的業者"},{"start":23414.224,"end":23442.851,"text":"能夠有更多技術合作啊投融資啊或者是限度開放更多的創新的商品甚至是一些其他的措施能夠讓整體的產業一起來發展這個部分主委可不可以簡要做個答覆是 謝謝委員我想剛剛委員描繪就是未來的方向因為其實我們VASP開始呢假設我們專法通過它開始針對機構做全面性的納管我上次也講過它是一個準金融機構那過去剛剛那個委員也提到說為什麼我們穩定必要"},{"start":23443.391,"end":23467.345,"text":"先由金融機構來發我想不管從法尊還有內控上面這不可諱言我們金融機構還是遠征於現在的Vespa所以未來這兩個合作是必然的這個金三角還是要存在最後希望院長經過我們這樣的一個互動你應該理解到我們要捍衛國家主權數位主權金融主權不能只是喊我們相關的法令要早一點推出導入我們人工智慧時代的"},{"start":23470.814,"end":23490.376,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們登記第三位賴會員委員質詢改為書面請行政院書面答覆列入紀錄並刊登公報在接下來今天口頭質詢最後一位我們登記第四號黃珊珊委員請質詢"},{"start":23497.24,"end":23523.978,"text":"謝謝院長請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長好我想最近在臺灣我們都看到了一些非常大的新聞尤其是在金融界最大的新聞大概就是泰吉斯集團在臺灣的資產被查封"},{"start":23525.419,"end":23537.436,"text":"這一個案例我們以為詐騙集團離我們很遠最近在Netflix上面有一齣戲叫做回魂記我不知道院長有沒有看過有"},{"start":23538.908,"end":23565.638,"text":"他的女兒被詐騙集團又拐去受虐致死兩個傷心的母親我們以為他離我們很遠原來他們就在眼前而這個集團從2018、2019年就進到台灣了而且現在是美國政府用制裁的方式通報了台灣的檢方做出查封的動作"},{"start":23567.649,"end":23594.809,"text":"臺灣已經變成詐騙集團的後花園臺灣已經成為他們隱藏資產的最佳的場地今天我們一直在打詐打到現在感覺是越打越詐而且這些人肆無忌憚把臺灣的法規還有相關的漏洞全部摸得一清二楚院長您是您進來之後第一個案子就是打詐專法你覺得這個專法現在"},{"start":23597.273,"end":23617.892,"text":"有沒有一些功效還是看到這樣的跨國集團我們還有什麼方法可以做新的打詐釋法是有產生功效但這個功效我跟委員跟國人不會滿意的因為還是發生了很多案子但是我們的趨勢上財損數跟案件數是有下降沒有錯"},{"start":23619.153,"end":23642.882,"text":"但是我們現在打招呼院長我今天要講的是你最近有發現因為我們的銀行很認真修法通過非常認真做了很多AI的管理所以很多小市民的帳戶平常沒人理他突然間他可能跟朋友去買個東西互相轉了個帳就被警示了這才是問題我今天要講的是"},{"start":23643.502,"end":23669.043,"text":"那些詐騙集團幾百億幾千億上這邊騙人的然後在我們這邊買了幾十億的資產沒人管一個小小的市民他可能只是跟朋友check一下分個賬戶最近就被銀行把他的賬戶給凍結了這才是我今天的問題就是有關知識我知道你有很多話要說怎麼回事這麼大的不做這麼小的每天管這些要幹嘛"},{"start":23669.463,"end":23685.689,"text":"沒有跟委員報告其實剛才提到就是說當然我們在做這個我在這邊必須說明一下就是我們在透過銀行我贊成要列管但是我要講的是我們要做的是大的要好好管"},{"start":23686.57,"end":23716.19,"text":"所以我今天要看的是你看小市民的賬戶嚴格檢視務所的烏龍非常多院長最近主委有在處理但是詐騙集團這個案子從他進來台灣到銀行我相信他在101還開了公司這個101在去年年底的時候我有質詢過他們必須要對成豬人進行相關的身家調查這件事情有沒有做"},{"start":23717.751,"end":23744.191,"text":"他們顯然沒有做101有回覆我我們還有開選商會議我們還有調查董監事資格我們才讓他進駐院長101是國家的門面101有公股的代表101的董事長是我們官派的透過這個例子我想我應該要要求101對內控管理上面對於成豬人必須進一步的瞭解是"},{"start":23744.891,"end":23771.772,"text":"這個案子在我十幾年前當律師的時候就有人用著101的陳豬然後到處騙詐騙所以去年年底我提出質詢要求他們對於陳豬人要有一定的篩選尤其是詐騙集團用101的門面來詐騙所謂的投資人看到101公司在101一定沒問題這個要求是應該的因為101是國家的門面不能讓他變成詐騙"},{"start":23773.254,"end":23800.035,"text":"太子集團運用了我們的新南向政策他們的所有人都是拿著柬埔寨的護照進進出出如入無人之境現在這種外商這種資歷如果主委你們拿出查小市民的那種AI精神現在這些很奇怪的怪怪的是不是應該KYC EDD再來做一次全面清查尤其是對柬埔寨"},{"start":23801.843,"end":23826.857,"text":"其實我們對於現在剛才講說他在這邊我講尤其是對柬埔寨如果有這些所謂的境外公司來有這些境外的人來在我們的銀行體系當中你做個關懷吧做個清查吧我想委員他們進來很多細節沒辦法這邊說明其他這邊開戶還有這些往來並不是像我們現在已經這個案件揭露那麼的明顯我可以理解因為那個年代沒有這些規範"},{"start":23828.038,"end":23857.172,"text":"我現在要說的是因為知道了所以我們現在往回頭去關懷 去推院長我要說的是小市民都這樣查啦這個也認真查一下我們會一樣認真的查好不好我覺得這個部分從現在開始用這個案例來回推2019 2018 新南向陣陣開始進來的多拿亞公司我們可能在銀行端要有一些動作不管如何"},{"start":23857.927,"end":23882.804,"text":"我覺得不能再錯放了下一關是說為什麼這一次美國用這樣的方式因為他們是用行政上面用制裁的方式然後要求我們的檢調來配合對吧 主委是對我們跟我不禁想到的是院長我們想一想如果今天台灣發生了同樣的事情我們能不能得到國際社會這樣的協助"},{"start":23885.922,"end":23896.14,"text":"我們能不能幫我們的民眾追回這些錢目前你有沒有這樣的機制你可不可以發一個文美國政府就幫你扣他在美國的財產目前有嗎"},{"start":23897.739,"end":23923.112,"text":"我們要建立這樣的管道 目前我看是要這是我 我們在去年我們在提出所謂打炸專法的時候當時我們其實我們民眾黨提的案我們在洗錢防治法裡面我們希望能夠成立類似金融制裁專案辦公室也就是類似像恐怖分子反恐的這些動作因為行政的動作會比司法的動作快"},{"start":23924.127,"end":23945.451,"text":"而且如果他已經影響到現在是一種跨國性的企業化經營的大型的洗錢詐騙他其實需要政府更快速的金融制裁就比同美國他用愛國者法案或者是相關的規範他們財政部就直接可以做行政制裁這是我上次在"},{"start":23946.107,"end":23972.894,"text":"提案的時候有提出來但是你看看我們的法務部怎麼說沒有必要不符比例原則所以我們沒有辦法處理所以我們不需要快速金融制裁院長從這個案例我希望你們開始重新思考台灣在這樣的情況下我們有沒有能力去處理跨國大型公司企業化運作的詐騙行為如果可以我們是不是在法律上面應該慢慢的怎麼樣去建置這樣的機制"},{"start":23975.018,"end":23992.073,"text":"我不希望行政院的回答是沒有必要在依法有據的前提底下能夠加強行政的作為加強對這些詐欺集團進一步的用快速的來制裁的話那我願意往這個方向請法務部單位能夠重新思考這個方向沒錯 至少往前走"},{"start":23992.754,"end":24011.474,"text":"如果我們重新想過如果我們今天這些事情發生在台灣我們明知道那邊有財產我們要去查封它我們本身的外交行為本來就很辛苦了那我們自己又不積極不努力那人家為什麼要幫我們封一樣的意思嘛 好嗎"},{"start":24012.629,"end":24035.299,"text":"現在高檢署應該有一個跨部會的小組來研議這樣的方向那我會請他來也重視委員所提的建議的內容如果我們可以快速的制裁我們可以快速的動作這些跨國性的大型的企業他們已經是企業化已經不是你用我們的洗錢房子個人帳戶在那邊封的那種方法了好嗎"},{"start":24036.946,"end":24059.781,"text":"接下來我要問的是接下來我們大家最關心的就是不發現金其實政府的職責最近大家在討論的是怎麼領我們覺得台灣人最悲哀的是我們只要一個目標叫做不要被騙就好院長這樣聽起來難過了台灣人發現金不是寬天洗地都在想說怎麼樣不要被騙"},{"start":24061.226,"end":24082.932,"text":"政府的職責只有一個確保錢不會被騙走所以院長您今年九月說希望留給國家做更有意義的用途不用領或者是你說要希望大家去旅遊還要多吃台灣豬肉那今天大家都開始領了您覺得應該您的立場還一樣嗎我覺得如果能夠在這個時候"},{"start":24084.574,"end":24112.228,"text":"也用於國內的旅遊或是多幫助豬農在此時此刻應該是有用在國內消費啦盡量去協助大家過得讓你有需要的剛需也好或者是特別的需要消費去增加國內經濟的熱絡在此刻是需要的而且是對很好的工作但是這次大家吵最兇的就是說我們還是讓13歲以上的孩子他進到自己的帳戶嘛這我沒有什麼意見啦但是我要講的也是今天我非常重視的"},{"start":24113.268,"end":24133.001,"text":"我們趁著金融自主我們希望孩子們能夠有自己的金融觀念但是我比較擔心的是我們對於我們的所有的孩子其實我們從小到大沒有教過他怎麼領財沒有教過他怎麼投資所以我們沒有金融素養的情況下你給他錢"},{"start":24135.066,"end":24150.756,"text":"不趁這個機會做機會教育是很可惜的您看一下這個數字83%的孩子有自己的帳戶但是65%對於金融服務沒信心45%他每個月是超支的也就是他錢不夠23%有被詐騙過甚至18%曾經受損過"},{"start":24155.766,"end":24176.241,"text":"幾百塊到幾十塊我的孩子也被騙過現在的孩子沒有被騙過的不多了第一網路購物太多第二你上去買東西然後就寄來一瓶寶特瓶就沒了這種事情很多我們當成是機會教育但是我要講的是院長如果學校沒有教你教孩子怎麼學"},{"start":24177.652,"end":24196.228,"text":"所以我主張我們對於比方AI的知識跟理財的知識應該把它受教育的年齡層往下降放在學校裡面對 往下降第二個你知道學校沒教的事情現在孩子怎麼學的嗎93%是社群媒體社群媒體是他們學金融財經的唯一的管道93%"},{"start":24198.049,"end":24224.412,"text":"因為他爸爸媽媽都不懂啊但很難保證他得到的是正確的知識是 所以怎麼樣我一直跟彭主委說金融素養要進到學校甚至要從小開始學知道投資沒有人什麼十幾% 二十幾%的啦十幾% 二十幾%你還相信然後還把你身家全部拿去賠給了之後還去拿房子去抵押貸款的長輩一大堆"},{"start":24225.909,"end":24245.014,"text":"我們應該建立青年人他正確的理財觀念我覺得如果你是AI內閣你這個要把它放在最基本的台灣的投資詐騙這麼興盛不是沒有道理因為台灣人善良台灣人相信朋友台灣人只要有投資會賺錢聽到股票的代號就去買了"},{"start":24246.155,"end":24271.505,"text":"然後自己都不研究 也不知道為什麼我覺得這才是我擔心的所以今天的問題是兒童青少年被詐騙的人數已經到一個非常高的數字了從17歲以下就有3000多人23歲以下將近25000人也就是說我們的兒童青少年被詐騙的被害人是逐年上升的他們相信的大部分在社群媒體上"},{"start":24272.256,"end":24290.978,"text":"上一次我們公共銀行全面抵制非實名制的社群平台不在上面上廣告我覺得這件事情很棒但是我想問一下主委這個成果怎麼樣我們叫他下架不登他的廣告現在的效果怎麼樣"},{"start":24291.772,"end":24317.36,"text":"不過我想這部分因為主要是我們還是希望就是說透過一個比較完整的金融基礎教育這還是一個 這也是我們一直在努力其實我們在不管走入社區 走入校園我們一樣 我們有這麼多銀行有這麼多可以教育的他們有這麼多的資源怎麼樣協助我們的學校協助金管會 協助我們的教育部把這個部分下放到學校去不要透過這些社群媒體"},{"start":24318.8,"end":24335.689,"text":"下廣告他們在那邊幹嘛主要他們還是一樣這個社群媒體有它一定的穿透力但是我們也是持續的透過我們的金融機構還有就是我們所有金融市場的力量跟學校社區來合作做這件事情還是持續在做最後這個我希望院長這應該成為你的重要政策"},{"start":24336.874,"end":24354.107,"text":"既然我們的年輕人是我們的未來現在的問題是他剛講是被害人現在我們的少年詐欺犯成長率是年增率80%你看這個數字青少年詐欺犯罪從1000多人12歲到17歲變2900人然後18到13歲從6000多人變14000人他是"},{"start":24360.629,"end":24389.109,"text":"倍數的成長每一年變成共犯的青少年是倍數的成長他不是只有沒有金融素養他甚至成為砸欺的共犯現在這個孩子才是最大的問題而且很多人是拿著他的帳戶去當人頭戶院長我只要求一個現在長輩的帳戶我們可以給他警示你有動作的時候要通知家屬一樣青少年的帳戶是不是應該做同樣的處理"},{"start":24389.602,"end":24414.712,"text":"好的 謝謝委員我們會請現在行政院即將進一步強化的打詐指揮中心還有林秉新政委所主持的這個打詐業務重視這個數字也分析它的內容我們來針對問題做出解決的方法所以我要講的是這個數字我問金管會他跟我說他沒有統計院長 沒有統計就不會有統治我希望統計很重要分析很重要好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":24417.748,"end":24419.132,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":24423.416,"end":24452.835,"text":"接下來我們登記第五號林楚瑩委員改書面請行政院書面答覆我們列入紀錄並刊登公報在接下來也跟院會報告我們財政組織質詢已經詢答完畢謝謝所有財主相關單位的閣員們的備詢我們休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們換為教育及文化組織質詢也請第一位質詢呂玉玲委員請準備現在休息"},{"start":25029.157,"end":25056.344,"text":"報議會我們現在繼續開會進行教育及文化組織諮詢首先我們請呂玉玲委員諮詢鄭振前委員請準備謝謝主席請卓院長跟教育部的鄭部長麻煩請卓院長教育部長備詢"},{"start":25068.107,"end":25084.242,"text":"吳仁豪院長 部長教育是我們國家的百年大計也是我們下一代成長的最主要的關鍵那首先本席要來跟你討教我們教師荒的問題通過教師荒我相信"},{"start":25084.762,"end":25101.921,"text":"很多的委員也都提過這個問題那根據我們教育部的統計全國公立的國中小共有3303校缺了1429名的代理教師其中國小教師的缺額最高的縣市有新北"},{"start":25102.421,"end":25130.947,"text":"台北跟台中 桃園跟彰化國中的部分缺了最高的前5名有新北 桃園 台北 台中跟台南這個就是我們教育現在鬧得人力荒的問題今年是更加的嚴重尤其是本席桃園地方某個學校它有公告7名的職缺都沒有人來報名桃園在7月31號有公告它的國中"},{"start":25131.767,"end":25155.56,"text":"國文的部分增了40次然後它的數學部分增了46次的老師地理部分增了49次七項職缺通通都沒有人來報名徵選所以請教院長部長這個教育師的教育老師的教育荒這問題我們如何的解決有什麼解決的辦法"},{"start":25156.87,"end":25178.221,"text":"請部長答問兩個原則第一個先要把教師的留任的意願提高再來熱地的這種缺額實際的精算實際的做法教育部是非常努力請部長跟委員報告我們事實上從這一個統計數字來看事實上我們目前中小學總共有老師19萬"},{"start":25182.625,"end":25206.977,"text":"19萬多你針對我的問題缺了老師怎麼樣去補這個辦法我要跟委員報告說我們國中小我們事實上以現在的所有全國的這些大專業校在培養師師他事實上每一年領友證照大概有我知道你都有培訓但是沒有投入第一線的教師工作所以我要跟委員報告就是說我們也利用這段時間在鼓勵"},{"start":25208.098,"end":25235.384,"text":"鼓勵這個地方政府就說因為根據地方自治法本來國民教育就是地方的全責但是教育部在培養師這個部分我們是量是夠的但是地方怎麼樣去攬柴你完全沒有了解到真正的問題我剛剛就講了你有在培訓教師但是沒有投入第一線比較完整的跟委員報告當然老師"},{"start":25236.824,"end":25264.845,"text":"等於說他有教師證他不願意到地方去任教為什麼不到第一線你有沒有發現這個問題科技產業他的一個發達待遇比較好所以薪資有問題嗎還有另外一個比如說學校我們看到至少我從去年520進來我一直在觀察也是一直希望解決這個問題我們看到家長老師跟校長基本上"},{"start":25265.99,"end":25287.708,"text":"互信不夠這對小孩子的一個教育是不好的部長我也很想聽你講完你這個去年發現這個問題到今年一年之間你的努力做了什麼但是我發現你並沒有發現真正的原因所以本席來提醒你告訴你你來做謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":25288.388,"end":25312.436,"text":"那就是因為有這個教師荒的問題在這個BBC這個深度去探討我們台灣年齡層年輕老師的這個斷層的問題在2004年的話我們年輕的老師在30歲以下的話占比高中小占比大概在17到23%國中部分的話大概占比在這個將近"},{"start":25313.616,"end":25336.187,"text":"在20%所以我們看到我們現在的這個占比數一直在下滑到不到10%不到10%這就是為什麼第一線的在年齡斷層裡面不願意投入到我們第一線來做教育的工作這個發生的問題第一個部長你剛好提到了薪資待遇現在我們的老師啊"},{"start":25337.915,"end":25361.036,"text":"的薪資待遇的話在台灣中小學的師資的底薪是兩萬五千元現在的勞工的基本工資是兩萬九千五百元這是不是有落差了雖然老師他有研究家級導師家級跟行政家級跟偏遠地系家級但是這大概在四五萬塊而已"},{"start":25361.756,"end":25376.977,"text":"四五萬塊而已做了十年後才可能多四萬多到七萬多那如果說你是讀理工科的話他們薪資可能就會更高了就像半導體業者的話他們都會比較高所以這個就是薪資問題"},{"start":25378.158,"end":25404.625,"text":"本席要提醒你就是薪資問題但是教師的結構他本來就是本縫加學術研究會不能說把他一刀兩切說他的本縫是自己勞工我想這樣的一個比較是本席告訴你的你要聽清楚我剛剛有說你他的底薪是兩萬五千元加幾加起來到四五萬有加加幾所以現在這些"},{"start":25406.269,"end":25410.936,"text":"勞工的基本工資20年來了他漲幅大概在230%但是我們老師的終點費"},{"start":25415.404,"end":25441.236,"text":"大概長在5%到29%長的幅度非常小所以第一個原因就是薪資待遇你可以做一個調整好不好那第二個就是行政工作因為我們的行政人員並沒有設置行政人員老師都要兼行政人員工作非常的辛苦尤其是我們教育政策一直在變遷當下現在包括的12年國教"},{"start":25441.796,"end":25463.148,"text":"還有108的課綱老師要做備課要做一些資料報表等等都是勞心勞力非常的辛苦又要來監證這個行政人員的話我相信他們以疲以奔命所以這一個改善教師的這個工作環境這是第二點好不好你有沒有發現"},{"start":25464.449,"end":25485.359,"text":"你有沒有發現這問題我去年總諮詢也提過了但是並沒有設立行政人員的也感謝委員的一個關注台灣教育的包括老師的這一個工作前夜我也因為這樣跟到北中南東我跟到各地方去跟家長老師"},{"start":25487.089,"end":25506.502,"text":"部長家長老師學校你都可以去做一個溝通但是付諸行動制度你要去做啊你都知道但是一年又過去了你都沒有做所以北溪提醒你你聽我講因為你剛剛講的只是北中南溝通老師家長"},{"start":25507.362,"end":25520.832,"text":"溝通你並沒有付諸行動具體的一個政策出來所以本席提醒你新知改善教育環境還有本席要再提醒你第三個就是現在很多家長會投訴"},{"start":25522.313,"end":25546.996,"text":"老師要被調查或者是他們很多的工作上身心都會懼乏所以在第一線工作上沒有辦法去支撐需要有代課老師那現在缺老師 教師荒就有代課老師的問題代課老師和代理老師也都不一樣在第一線工作的老師他們的薪資不如正式的老師"},{"start":25547.697,"end":25569.717,"text":"他不如正式老师但是我们在我们的工作上有特别的有一个条例是说专任教师可以比照老师但是待课老师他就没有办法比照老师这一点的话我们是不是做一个调整这个是比方是说年资的加紧待课老师有没有年资"},{"start":25571.141,"end":25597.755,"text":"戴克老師因為他授課的時數戴克老師的話只上一個學校嗎他只有戴一個禮拜或者兩個禮拜的兩節課或者因為所以他確實以目前來講是沒有部長戴克老師大部分都是學校老師去代理其他同事的課程叫戴克我現在講戴克 代理老師"},{"start":25599.465,"end":25614.247,"text":"又是不一樣的所以這兩個是不一樣的所以我現在一直講很多老師偏鄉請不到譬如說數學老師 工老師偏鄉老師開學的都還請不到我們是不是可以比照"},{"start":25615.508,"end":25628.402,"text":"專任老師的方式我們家計都有給他 偏項都有給他但是師資的家計沒給他為什麼 本席要提醒你的就是說因為啊 這個代課或代理老師他們"},{"start":25630.882,"end":25649.272,"text":"沒有辦法說一個學校就帶課他可能要去找好多學校帶課的機會對不對所以也疲於奔命 還要備課所以沒辦法回饋給學生他的學習的歷程所以這方面可不可以研議可不可以研議給年資的加緊"},{"start":25650.67,"end":25664.601,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想確實如果有這樣屬於代課但是它事實上是在特別偏鄉有一個區域性的好幾個學校譬如說本土語言的老師或者Steam科學的老師他確實這樣的代"},{"start":25665.982,"end":25691.388,"text":"我想我們全盤來了解來研議謝謝委員接受我們很高興因為這些都是教育團體提供給本席的都是他們現場第一線的老師提供出來的意見好不好生意是有讓老師生產的臨時要找代理老師代課老師都有這個需要臨時找是不容易找的嘛好不好雖然說有流浪老師但是我們希望這老師還是給他輔導起來可不可以"},{"start":25694.191,"end":25714.473,"text":"就是你要有誘因這個誘因就是本席所講的這個部分希望你每一下都去研擬教育部我們的態度跟委員是一樣怎麼樣有一個更好的教育的環境然後讓學生老師安心教然後學生安心學能夠有一個好的學習品質"},{"start":25716.715,"end":25739.55,"text":"要安心 再提供你一個意見就是說在改善我們職場當中現在國民小學的員額編制在105年提高到1.65到現在將近10年的都沒有再做調整台北現在每個班是1.9 新北是1.7台中也是1.7"},{"start":25740.731,"end":25754.549,"text":"那現在我們教育部的規定是1.65那很多學校 全台灣的話很多學校都比照你這個底線標準是1.65可不可以這個也來做一個調整調整到1比8還是1比7這樣子好不好"},{"start":25756.091,"end":25777.402,"text":"還是我們鼓勵地方 政府訂一個最起碼的標準但是你地方怎麼去攬財 留財 提升教育品質地方是有這個前摺的因為地方各自的需要去做調整但是底線標準定在那邊很多學校就會依照你的底線標準來完成"},{"start":25778.362,"end":25785.704,"text":"你去研議 可不可以再調整去調整 剛剛柏熙告訴你的不只偏鄉 柏熙給你念的前五名都是台北 新北 桃園 台中所以請你去研議 調整高一點"},{"start":25803.089,"end":25817.155,"text":"感謝委員提醒我現在未來我們會跟地方政府有更積極的討論比如說在財化法以後地方有更豐富的一個財源你制度面要先制定好來你的原來制度標準要定個底線不要再出來啊"},{"start":25818.075,"end":25839.736,"text":"全國就會一起試用我們這個底線當然我們要跟地方來討論因為持平論教育部如果定的太高我們希望太好但是地方政府沒有辦法去執行的話我想這也圖法就是我們只是好 部長你願意接受那去研議問題都出來了教室荒很嚴重好不好"},{"start":25840.296,"end":25851.661,"text":"我跟委員報告一句話委員應該給部長多一點鼓勵因為您剛剛說的大部分關於教師行政職代課老師種種未來一個新的想法"},{"start":25852.662,"end":25871.312,"text":"部長在前幾天已經向我報告說明過了我們會查這個方針 應該給部長多一點努力你說的問題他不能夠提到這些問題我都點出來了你去研究來提升我們學校師資的穩定性跟持續性讓我們的老師可以留任 留下來"},{"start":25871.912,"end":25896.951,"text":"在第一線為我們的孩子來付出我剛說第一個強調他留任的機制部長都已經提出他的想法我剛點出幾個問題你一定要去做付出具體的制度出來感謝委員一路來都關心事實上剛才委員所關心的不管校事法或者老師的待遇或者行政原諒或者種種的問題我們事實上也我要利用這個機會要特別謝謝院長他事實上是有指示教育部一定要"},{"start":25898.415,"end":25923.725,"text":"正視這些問題然後要有一個相對的與時機性的做法謝謝部長請你演繹出來謝謝部長請回謝謝部長請回我現在請國科會的吳主委主委你慢慢走過來因為我時間有限時間暫停主委也沒問題時間暫停謝謝慢慢走不要急不要摔跤了"},{"start":25930.06,"end":25951.108,"text":"好 時間繼續院長 各位因為時間有限我直接切主題那就是我們桃竹苗大溪谷計畫已經在執行當中那現在我們的龍潭龍科三期有列入大溪谷的這個計畫裡面那現在因為我們龍科三期在2022年的時候就已經公布"},{"start":25951.648,"end":25967.567,"text":"要來擴充我們的這個科學園區那時候的話因為是土地範圍沒有跟民眾溝通所以有卡關的情形但是本席跟我們科管局還有市政府都一再的溝通現在大約的土地面積在90公頃左右"},{"start":25968.228,"end":25986.024,"text":"那在去年的12月跟3月已經開了兩場公聽會本來是今年的3月應該要送到行政院來核定但是又有民眾要願意納入所以又再舉辦 再啟動公聽會所以本期想請問的就是是不是大廠 國際廠商要進來進去所以你要再重新啟動公聽會"},{"start":25994.787,"end":26007.227,"text":"希望能夠擴大"},{"start":26007.671,"end":26033.48,"text":"那因為你重新啟動公聽會了那昨天大概是在11月28、29又要開公聽會那現在如果公聽會完畢又有人要納入那不是無限期遙遙無期就一直在舉辦公聽會上所有程序重新啟動嗎是不是有可以確定啟程這次11月28、29公聽會完畢就受行政院迴避我們除了管理公聽會跟桃園市政府"},{"start":26036.015,"end":26061.593,"text":"我們會現在啟動工會也是因為台灣市政府希望照顧到就等於是有范教維的大使邱瑜要進來 林毅要進來所以我們肯定不夠再增加的工程是不是 我們在那邊照常理我們樂觀其成啦 但是我的意思是說這一次的公務會完畢就要送行征的額底不要又有人要當 又重新啟動工會好 副法委員 你要市政府的推薦那法官也推薦 法官就在那邊照顧"},{"start":26063.544,"end":26089.369,"text":"好 謝謝李玉玲委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝歡迎我們一場二樓旁聽來自台北市延平高中的同學我們掌聲歡迎各位優秀的同學接下來登記第二位麥玉珍委員質詢改為書面我們請行政院書面答覆並列入公報記錄再接下來我們請鄭振前委員質詢王鴻薇委員請準備"},{"start":26095.61,"end":26098.836,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下周榮泰院長再請周院長備詢"},{"start":26108.564,"end":26133.278,"text":"政委員好 院長好我延續剛剛呂玉玲委員她針對桃竹苗大矽谷的問題我也跟著問一下因為賴總統在2020年選舉的時候桃竹苗大矽谷是她很重要的一個產業政策的一環因為它涵蓋面非常的廣包括了空間的問題然後包括了教育的問題人才的問題 產業的問題還包括了生活的問題等等確實也在2024年9月"},{"start":26137,"end":26159.549,"text":"主委長上來之後也正式的宣布上路了那確實也很熱鬧也吸引了大家很多的關注那麼在1月20號的時候今年1月20號的時候中央跟地方政府也達成了一個共識決定要建立桃竹苗大細股計畫的一個溝通平台中央跨部會跟地方政府的院長知道這個事情嘛 對不對"},{"start":26160.897,"end":26178.902,"text":"桃州苗大氣谷一直是我們六大區域產業生活區的領頭最先核定的部分所以說我們在1月20號的時候呢中央有決定跨部會跟地方成立一個溝通的一個平台可是10個月過去了到現在一次會都沒有開"},{"start":26180.362,"end":26199.988,"text":"那我這邊比較疑惑的是我們大細股計畫只是一個選舉競選的一個口號還是真的要如實如實的下去推可不可以請院長口頭回覆一下當然不是我們在大細股桃樹苗大細股的計畫之後我們其他的六大區域產業生活圈的計畫都依序的都核定了這個是未來"},{"start":26201.628,"end":26227.887,"text":"要襯托台灣基礎建設重要的一個生活指標那很好那我想說陶九華大西湖計畫裡面他有四大策略包括深耕在地前瞻科技驅動產業創新然後強化深科技新創發展然後第三點在配合在地需求延攬與培育人才這跟教育部有關那麼優化園區建設構築科技廊帶跟整個國科有關我想請教的狀態是在第三點的部分"},{"start":26228.627,"end":26240.075,"text":"就是延攬在地的需求跟培育人才我想請教清華大學是不是在我們這次桃秋喵大西湖計畫當中人才佈局裡面的主軸學府"},{"start":26241.485,"end":26265.214,"text":"清華大學 因為他就在當地啊 應該是舊地人才的 肯定是嘛 因為清華大學在陶竹苗大戲舞計畫當中 肯定是一個人才佈局很重要的一個學府嘛 對不對 是嘛 OK好那我想說 因為在整個配合在地需求延攬培育人才當中 有好多好多的子計畫那麼很多裡面的時候 包括成立那個"},{"start":26265.894,"end":26286.531,"text":"重點的一個研究的學校或者是科專等等或者說有一些產業碩士等等很多的部分都是教育部這邊相關的清華大學因為為了要配合我們桃九毛大矽谷計畫它也提出了很多的一個具體的計畫出來"},{"start":26288.413,"end":26317.492,"text":"包括要擴大招生還有擴大師資的一個部分然後希望建置一個校園的一個改善跟整個強化資訊安全系統然後跟整個教職員的一個部分這些部分都是為了要去符合桃竹貓大細股計畫包括我們經濟部在講AI產業當中未來五年的時候要增加20萬個就業人口一樣的一個狀態都在培育人才可是我發現就是清華大學很積極可是教育部的回應很冷淡"},{"start":26319.229,"end":26323.311,"text":"院長知不知道這個事情這個應該要請教育部來比較了解謝謝委員關心我們產業重點產業的一些人才培育跟產業的發展"},{"start":26333.556,"end":26355.738,"text":"確實清華大學它是一個非常有品牌也非常好的一個大學 頂尖大學那也跟委員報告在清華大學它的一個校務即校務發展配合產業所培養人才基本上教育部都是樂觀其成持平而論我們是擔心清華他老師的教學負荷量太高他不願意申請"},{"start":26356.539,"end":26362.306,"text":"太多的這些民眾的增加也就是說我要跟文報告這麼多我在一分鐘我跟文報告因為清華大學你覺得教育部怎麼回嗎教育部回他們了直接公文回他們說依程序申請"},{"start":26374.702,"end":26395.025,"text":"然後教育部說到時候試資源條件再來核定那我要特別講的狀態是如果清華大學很願意很積極那部長剛剛提到說你剛剛還在擔心清華大學不願意太積極去做怕增加太多的loading那現在清華大學他們願意去做希望部長給他們更多的支持好不好"},{"start":26395.485,"end":26410.052,"text":"這是肯定的但是我要跟委員報告他最近有一個案子是因為新的年度的這個這一個戲所的名額都已經核定了然後他才要申請就說我們有一定程序的申請在這個過程上"},{"start":26411.553,"end":26427.408,"text":"因為你現在口頭上也答應要給清華大學更多的一個支持那這樣就夠了我們會讓清華大學在基本上希望教育部這邊給他們更多的一個支持那我這邊希望請教一下院長部長可以我請教一下院長"},{"start":26428.149,"end":26451.756,"text":"我們這邊呢 因為我剛剛提到說從1月20號開始的時候我們有個中央跟地方的跨平台的一個溝通的狀態針對桃園文大西湖計畫可是到現在十個月都沒有開會我在想可不可以就是院長承諾一下我們接下來每一個月能夠針對這個跨中央地方的一個溝通平台的時候能夠建立一個越都島的一個制度可不可以"},{"start":26453.116,"end":26467.266,"text":"跟委員報告 桃竹苗大矽谷跟我們現在推動的大南方新矽谷我會說這是兩個引擎帶動國家的高科技產業所以我們不會讓他沒有進度的那您說的那個平台應該是屬於國發會在主持的那國發會"},{"start":26472.606,"end":26498.952,"text":"據知國發會應該是有開過會議1月10號開過1月20號開過之後就沒有了所以我這邊只是希望跟院長承諾一下報告委員昨天有再開過國發會昨天再開 又開了那有開其實好事可是我希望院長這邊承諾一下我們有一個越都島的機制把這管考部分抓緊一點好不好好的 應該的好 感謝那我接下來我想請教一下因為那個"},{"start":26500.452,"end":26521.905,"text":"台美的對等關稅的問題其實因為還沒有做最後的一個結論那這過程當中有很多的部分那我今天針對台積電的問題要就教於行政院長因為我們的行政院副院長也直接表示要幫川普來建立美版的竹科然後要來換取我們關稅的一個優惠這是一個"},{"start":26524.907,"end":26547.236,"text":"然後我們的副總統他也特別提到我們已經承諾要在美投資不僅是台積電還包括了整個生態系那這個部分的時候表示副總統已經很清楚提到了台灣的半導體供應鏈會一起赴美那這樣子的一件事情的時候我想針對這個部分請教一下院長在這麼多的訊息當中"},{"start":26549.698,"end":26565.914,"text":"美國的官員提到了台積電的高階製程要五五分50%要在美國生產這個部分我們行政院有沒有具體的態度兩個方面跟委員回答我想行政院從來沒有說過美版竹科這四個字"},{"start":26566.494,"end":26585.864,"text":"竹科就是竹科竹科的經驗很難在其他地方國家來複製的但是我們現在跟美國成立一個服務園區那不是美版的竹科那是一種服務台商也服務在地的廠商以後做更多人才資金的合作第二個所有的555分這個議題是一直是不存在的"},{"start":26586.124,"end":26614.191,"text":"都不存在 都不存在的OK 院長我這邊跟你講幾個部分因為我們看了就是台積電的一個法說會的相關報告裡面還有我們目前整個一些幾個相關的指標我這邊是參考了美國國際貿易委員會還有一些相關的國外的一些研究機構他們提出來的狀態2024年台灣的GDP大概是7690億美元我用美元來計算因為後面也都是用美元來算台灣政府的稅收大概在3.73"},{"start":26615.911,"end":26639.625,"text":"造台幣就是1127億美元左右那我們政府的稅收大概佔整個名目GDP大概14%然後按照美國國際貿易委員會他這邊提出來的一些指標出來說台灣的半導體產業佔台灣GDP的13%到20%因為不同的一個研究機構的時候他們出來的一個數字有點落差我一樣"},{"start":26640.365,"end":26656.795,"text":"就是透明的一個呈現這樣表示說在台灣大概每七八塊賺七八塊的錢大概就有一塊是半導體產業出來的所以半導體產業它如果出現很大的變化的時候對台灣肯定是很大的影響這很簡單的概念應該沒有問題對不對 院長"},{"start":26659.51,"end":26674.947,"text":"這個論述的方向是對的那是不是精準到這個部分這沒問題 因為我這邊也有一個論據在這個論述方向基本上是對的謝謝院長那這邊的時候我們也看到科學園區竹科 中科跟南科在去年2024年的時候"},{"start":26677.506,"end":26695.14,"text":"在整個機體電路的一個產值已經佔全部科學園區的79.99%將近八成所以台灣非常的依賴半導體這個產業那我們看到了這個部分的時候我要特別提到的一個情況是說因為目前為止"},{"start":26696.82,"end":26719.577,"text":"台積電確定要到美國去投資就超過1650億美元在日本投資有200億美元在德國投資有110億美元加起來將近2000億美元這是已經浮上檯面的院長你知道今年台積電的資本投資幾乎都在台灣是多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":26720.917,"end":26737.304,"text":"應該不知道 我直接簡單跟你講他的法說當中直接講說在400億到420億當我們有將近2000億的資本要投資到海外去的時候將近是五年2025年台積電在台灣的投資金額這對台灣的經濟產業還有高所得"},{"start":26742.418,"end":26761.418,"text":"家庭等等會有多大的影響我不知道院長這邊有沒有要求我們相關的單位做出一個台灣高階半導體製程移到海外去之後會對台灣產生的影響的評估有沒有細節我請主委但是我認為這個是產業自己"},{"start":26764.437,"end":26774.245,"text":"全球佈局的一個方式再來他投資的這2000億委員所說的不是一年2000億的台灣人所以我也直接講所以2025年台積電法術會長他2025年投資的資本投資是420億而且大部分在台灣"},{"start":26781.411,"end":26796.06,"text":"那接下來這兩千億當中的時候如果以2025年標準等於五年的投資金額他都不在台灣未來台積電在台灣的設廠投資還是會最多的理解台積電在台灣的投資不會停下來"},{"start":26796.9,"end":26813.59,"text":"理解他不會減少那他在海外的投資他也會透過董事會的同意也會逐年來編列啦這個部分都沒有問題這是在擴充投資主委 院長這都沒有問題我只是要呈現出一個狀態就是台積電它基本上"},{"start":26814.17,"end":26829.801,"text":"到海外去投資這麼大規模的時候很多民眾還會擔心台灣的半導體業被掏空再加上當時我們經濟部這邊在講說境外關內 境內關外這樣的一個投資要讓很多產業跟著半導體"},{"start":26830.962,"end":26849.107,"text":"現在不只是產業鏈外移以副總統的說法是整個生態系的一個外移以這樣的狀態的時候我們很擔心所以我們希望行政院能夠針對台積電高製程高階製程的部分能夠做更進一步的評估到底對台灣會產生怎麼樣子的一個影響"},{"start":26849.707,"end":26875.647,"text":"好 委員這個其實我們都一直在關注一直在評估一直在跟台積電在討論這個事情我們的先進製程研發絕對留在台灣台灣的投資不會減少 不會中斷因為現在供不應求所以我們在海外是增加投資增加投資的原因是因為台積電的收入一直不斷的在成長所以它有本錢可以往海外再過所以你的意思是說今年台積電在台灣投資420億美元"},{"start":26877.688,"end":26900.589,"text":"明年接下来几年也都会持续这么高金额的投资资本投资在台湾吗在台湾的投资也会基于我们在园区开发的这个速度不见得是同样的但是一定会增加因为台积电它是一个企业这本席都会理解可是我要讲的状态是台积电420亿2025年的资本投入在台湾"},{"start":26901.049,"end":26929.279,"text":"它基本上佔了台灣GDP的5.2%非常非常的高如果接下來台積電沒有繼續在台灣投資的時候我覺得台灣的經濟成長產生非常令人擔心的問題所以本席只是希望我們行政院包括我們國科會經濟部相關的單位能夠好好的去因應這樣子的一個問題因為我剛剛提到那幾個具體的數字都是很客觀的一個數字出來"},{"start":26930.259,"end":26944.052,"text":"我們現在這兩千億就是五年台積電在台灣投資的一個金額兩點跟委員報告基於政府的全球產業的戰略跟我們所有產業自主性的全球佈局跟留台灣 以台灣為優先這個絕對沒有改變"},{"start":26945.936,"end":26964.654,"text":"另外現在包括台積電在內其他國內的在世界有指標作用的科技大廠還一直在尋覓適合的地點能夠進行他們擴廠投資這個部分政府會協助他們我們也希望地方政府能夠一起來協助讓產業能夠在台灣繼續增加他的投資"},{"start":26965.394,"end":26982.613,"text":"這沒問題因為我在想說我們都希望台灣好也希望台積電能夠繼續帶動台灣的經濟成長只是說因為美國給他們用就是組合權在給台灣壓力我們希望政府也一樣有一套組合權去回應美國給的壓力我們不只是解決關稅的問題也要解決整個產業的問題"},{"start":26985.396,"end":27008.462,"text":"那麼當然包括了我們台灣最依賴的半導體相關的一個產業我們這個生態系好不容易建立起來不要因為短短為了現在要去滿足川普政府的一個壓力的時候我們就完全拱手浪出去我覺得這會造成台灣未來非常令人憂心的一個經濟跟國安的狀態報告委員我們絕對一定會把台灣的這個產業持續壯大"},{"start":27021.46,"end":27024.102,"text":"好 謝謝鄭振堅委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝好 接下來我們請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":27045.08,"end":27054.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢我也先請我們的教育部長麻煩再請教育部長備詢黃委員好院長好和我們政部長好委員好院長可能因為今天"},{"start":27072.588,"end":27099.426,"text":"我們的教文的質詢除了我們麥玉珍委員因為她今天在立法院有一個新住民的座談因為她來自於全國的新住民的代表但是我看到我們執政黨的委員今天竟然有高達六位委員都提出書面質詢我不曉得是認為我們的教文的質詢不重要還是在體恤院長的心不會跟委員報告"},{"start":27100.046,"end":27122.924,"text":"在這裡的總諮詢無論是口頭跟書面行政院一樣的重視我們的教育文化的委員們也許在委員會當中跟部長都清楚的了解今天他即使提出書面諮詢我們也會詳細的來答覆但是這麼多位的委員提出書面諮詢確實是在立法院比較少見院長先請教院長最近在"},{"start":27124.005,"end":27142.365,"text":"国内热议的一个议题就是诈骗最近一个跨国的太子集团因为它整个的洗钱高达好几百亿而在台湾被台湾确定它的不法所得就高达45亿元之多"},{"start":27143.566,"end":27171.214,"text":"在上个星期他们这些涉案人陆续有人被羁押有人被交保其中有一个这样的画面就是有一位特助在被交保了之后这样的开怀的颤笑而引起台湾国内舆论的哗然认为一个这样的跨国的诈骗集团而且他的光是在台湾不罚所得就已经超过45亿元"},{"start":27172.054,"end":27180.501,"text":"但是交保竟然少少的15萬元所以院長你看到這樣的畫面這樣的一個新聞你震怒嗎我一直對於這樣的結果我認為是對我們第一線的檢調人員士氣極大的打擊"},{"start":27188.769,"end":27210.582,"text":"很不容易發現一個詐團把他的首腦或是相關的人員把他逮捕到了結果法院輕輕的幾萬塊錢交保這個不僅是國人的觀感不好對這些執法人員士氣是極大的打擊我認為詐騙的方式我們要有效的防詐行政司法要同步來執行"},{"start":27211.573,"end":27230.967,"text":"所以连院长都看不下去所以我在这边要特别讲一下因为前阵子我们关心的比如说川普到亚洲访问在东协他们开会的时候就是韩国的总统李在明"},{"start":27231.747,"end":27255.086,"text":"他針對南韓大學生在柬埔寨被虐死那麼他震怒而且他直接跟國際犯罪組織宣戰他說如果這些國際犯罪組織膽敢碰韓國人或將其捲入犯罪我們要讓他知道結局只有家破人亡"},{"start":27256.287,"end":27272.967,"text":"這是李在明對國際犯罪組織的一個宣戰那麼就是因為他震怒然後在這個十月份在東南亞舉行東協會議的時候呢李在明就跟柬埔寨的這個領導人見面"},{"start":27275.35,"end":27292.799,"text":"非常快速的在柬埔寨所有韓國涉案的這些詐騙的這些歹徒全部送到韓國去接受司法制裁可是呢我們必須說前陣子我們也是討論到"},{"start":27294.62,"end":27309.307,"text":"台灣到現在還是很多人被騙到柬埔寨結果我們只能在機場裡面去舉標語說要小心詐騙所以我要講的是我非常肯定剛才院長這樣的答覆"},{"start":27309.927,"end":27331.322,"text":"雖然這個是司法院可能說這司法獨立但是司法不能夠置外於我們整個的社會觀感司法不能置外於我們打擊詐騙打擊犯罪的一個決心對不對所以在這邊我利用今天的總諮詢我覺得還是要提醒院長和行政單位"},{"start":27332.623,"end":27352.495,"text":"院長其實我今天為什麼特別選擇教文我剛才說其實我們最近教育出了很大的問題最近討論最多的就是我們的教師荒到今年這個學期其實很多學校在開學之後還在徵老師"},{"start":27353.686,"end":27375.912,"text":"有很多學校開學了好幾個月還在缺老師那有很多的學校因為老師極度的缺乏所以呢很多老師事實上呢他是超時在工作所以我必須講現在全台的教師荒已經成為了我們的新國安問題我們這幾年來護理人員缺"},{"start":27384.193,"end":27398.4,"text":"軍警消缺然後現在教師缺所以這是社會這個國家最中間的力量這樣大量的缺乏人才這是我們必須去正視的"},{"start":27399.52,"end":27416.569,"text":"所以我在這邊請教我們的部長我剛剛有提到很多學校到了10月份還在徵老師那也有學校說他們真的44次還是招不到老師所以我在這邊直接的"},{"start":27417.853,"end":27444.084,"text":"像就教育院長和部長我們現在其實教育第一線之所以這樣人才極度的缺乏有很多很多的原因但是我在這邊特別提到這個事實上在我們的教文的部門的質詢的時候我也有看到比如說像葛如軍委員他曾經就去整理我們教師的終點費"},{"start":27446.045,"end":27470.358,"text":"國小教師終點費還有國中教師及高中教師終點費他去統計從美國是79年一直到現在35年35年這個物價都不知道飛漲到什麼程度了一碗滷肉飯都不曉得已經漲成什麼樣子了對不對可是部長院長你知道嗎我們國小教師的終點費35年調升"},{"start":27474.6,"end":27492.61,"text":"是76块35年调了76块以现在来讲一个便当都买不到我们高中教师的终点费还有国中教师终点费35年调生只有18块到20块"},{"start":27494.417,"end":27523.536,"text":"我們葛珠區委員說這搞不好一支比較好的原子筆都買不到現在連泡麵都買不到所以長期以來我們第一線的教師用他們的使命用他們的熱情但是因為現在沒有什麼尊師重道的精神再加上他們第一線其實壓力非常大我在這邊就要特別為第一線的教師們請命這個也是大家討論很多的剛才我講的終點"},{"start":27525.518,"end":27547.693,"text":"還有就是導師費大家都知道你要擔任導師的話你到了晚上都還要跟家長的群組LINE大家東問西問你不可能就這樣輕輕鬆鬆的就下班了所以導師事實上他肩負非常大的一個行政的責任跟一個教育的責任我們國中小導師也動長了13年國中小導師的"},{"start":27555.237,"end":27569.764,"text":"的這個導師費就是職務加給導師費也動漲長達13年之久13年之久那所以其實也有很多的教師團體說應該把現在動漲的導師費也應該予以提高不然的話我剛才講了35年漲什麼漲20塊18塊泡麵都買不成然後"},{"start":27582.71,"end":27610.268,"text":"13年來導師費從來都沒有調漲過那這個其實在我知道在教育部門質詢的時候都有很多委員問到部長部長也承諾說要提出方案所以部長此時此刻可不可以給我們一個很明確的讓我們第一線現在的不管是終點費也好或者是這個導師費也好可以予以調整"},{"start":27611.567,"end":27641.087,"text":"跟我們報告確實院長也有指示我們怎麼樣去給中小學老師有一個更好的待遇讓他們能夠更安定的能夠來從事教室指導我們新世代的這些學生我想我們也內部也確實積極在研議但是因為許多的這些國民教育許多經費上的一些資用那也涉及到地方22個地方縣市院長也特別指示"},{"start":27642.267,"end":27659.838,"text":"國教署一定要先跟地方22個地方縣市政府能夠先大家先討論那我們到時候會有一個具體的一個方案什麼時候呢因為我看你在教文委員會就已經講說一個月內要提出一個月已經到了"},{"start":27660.837,"end":27668.36,"text":"我們當時大概就是說我們希望配合校事會議的時候大概在12月底之前那當然所以會不會調來來我請我請教院長因為今天總質詢院長"},{"start":27674.315,"end":27692.359,"text":"第一線教師的我剛講包含長期都沒有調整的終點費和導師費是不是應該要調整是跟委員報告部長在日前上個禮拜上一個禮拜兩個禮拜已經來說明過而且在質詢過程過程當中我也接受到這樣的訊息"},{"start":27693.62,"end":27708.621,"text":"對長期教師的待遇應該要更合理化但是我們考慮到國中小它應該屬於地方自治事項如果現在的調整未來這個人事費的支應是中央或地方或中央地方如何來協調這個部分"},{"start":27709.662,"end":27730.638,"text":"一定要跟地方談到 地方也願意那我們才能來定一個方式否則又會變成說中央請客 地方買單所以我們必須跟地方建談所以你的標準要一致喔可是你們每次軍公教調薪你們也就是直接宣布啊對不對 軍公教調薪本來就也有地方的支出那行之多年 我們也是用補助的方式"},{"start":27731.198,"end":27754.485,"text":"所以我在這邊我就是要院長一句話就是我剛才說我們現在我們面對新的國安問題護理人員我們那時候護理人員應該要加薪真的應該要加薪我們現在這麼多這麼重要的這些領域的人才都在都在喊沒有人這是很可怕的事情教育"},{"start":27756.347,"end":27782.075,"text":"這百年大計我們不能讓教育界變成教育成為一個好像是黃昏產業這不可以這樣子絕對不能變成但是現在就是這樣啊考上教師證也不願意來當教師我們已經重視了解我們並不是黃昏產業我們大部分的中小學老師還是謹守崗位跟外包委員也非常清楚"},{"start":27782.595,"end":27808.009,"text":"我們任何一項最近這三年來的國際評比我們沒有一項是落於五名之後所以這是我們第一線的教師非常非常的認真努力因為我時間有限謝謝部長就是一定要努力時間請暫停一下鄭部長請回我請一下我們文化部李部長麻煩請文化部長備詢"},{"start":27824.49,"end":27843.664,"text":"時間繼續最近監察院針對台灣Plus指出了一些缺失而台灣Plus從110年到現在已經花掉58億未來還要花40億也就是說我們在台灣Plus要砸下百億元但是呢"},{"start":27844.545,"end":27863.831,"text":"台湾Plus的争议不断不管是说我讲的监察院提出这些它有很多的缺失然后包含这个过去还有英籍的高阶编辑离台说我们质疑政治干预了台湾Plus的一个编辑"},{"start":27864.731,"end":27875.115,"text":"更不要說之前報導說川普是重刑犯最近還有一個很離譜的事情就是有一個十二強的紀錄片我們都知道聽台灣這個紀錄片院長你也不知道"},{"start":27880.717,"end":27901.211,"text":"上線三天就消失了已經消失一個月我們也去問沒有給我們理由沒有給我們理由為什麼消失我認為應該是版權出包了像這種缺失出來好像都靜悄悄的假裝沒有發生這些事情所以我在這邊具體"},{"start":27903.513,"end":27927.523,"text":"具體的來提出台灣Plus已經到了應該去檢討它是不是繼續應該存在你看它花這麼多錢以前花這麼多錢從110年到117年要花將近100億在台灣Plus我們有看到它的成效嗎剛才院長我們講到我們很多第一線需要"},{"start":27928.363,"end":27948.194,"text":"需要幫他加薪護理人員要加薪軍警應該要加薪然後教師應該加薪都說沒有錢結果我們花在錢花在這些上面完全錢沒有花在刀口上所以10plus明年的預算我們會嚴格的監督連監察院都提出他的成效有問題"},{"start":27949.275,"end":27970.047,"text":"然後還要不要花這麼多錢我們是不是應該把我們有限的資源移到應該去第一線該加薪的就去加薪院長你是不是覺得這種錢花的我真的不曉得看不出任何成效啊文化部能夠對於台灣plus的編輯台以及所有的記者能夠在座通盤的了解"},{"start":27970.607,"end":27984.958,"text":"他真正要plus台灣的一個功能他的存在才有他的價值對 沒有錯如果按照現在我們也可以去比比如像韓國阿里郎如果你先去比較我們的點閱率我們的數量"},{"start":27995.472,"end":28021.394,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來登記第五位郭玉琴委員第六位吳思瑤委員第七位陳俊宇委員三位委員質詢均以書面提出我們請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來我們請羅美玲委員質詢黃婕維請準備"},{"start":28032.681,"end":28039.445,"text":"謝謝主席有請卓院長還有教育部正部長麻煩再請卓院長教育部長備詢諾元豪"},{"start":28051.005,"end":28078.655,"text":"院長好首先本期要就新住民大學入學方案成效不佳的問題要跟院長還有部長做一個探討為了鼓勵新住民持續進入高等教育所以我們在108年11月的時候修訂了大學法第25條第一項然後在109年12月的時候訂定了新住民就讀大學辦法以不占原核定名額外加2%的方式"},{"start":28079.195,"end":28108.744,"text":"鼓励这个规划后的新住民报考大学那立法的这个目的呢是非常的友善也是希望友善新住民可以顺利衔接这个台湾的高等教育可是这个上路之后呢报考的新住民人数真的是非常非常的低那本席曾经在111年的时候呢跟教育部呢探讨过报考人数多的报考人数低的这个问题可是当时呢教育部就"},{"start":28109.164,"end":28132.572,"text":"就有回應啊說因為制度剛上路那也許是因為宣導不足所以呢給教育部一點時間那當時的本期就曾經叫跟建議教育部能務必要跟移民署來合作讓政策宣導可以下放到基層可是我們現在來看三年過去了到底成效如何那有關於這一個"},{"start":28133.912,"end":28149.225,"text":"新住民就讀的大學的辦法實施之後我們可以先來看111年111年全國有71所大專院校不管是在附學士班學士班或者是說碩士班"},{"start":28149.986,"end":28163.714,"text":"博士班其實都有開出了這個名額那時候的招生名額總計全國是4135位可是我們看報考的人數有多少其實總計只有33位"},{"start":28165.675,"end":28187.751,"text":"我们开出了4000多的名额可是呢报考的人数只有33位那录取的人是只有11位而且报名有些地方报名的人数甚至一直以来都是挂零的那时候呢本席曾经在111年的时候跟教育部来做探讨的时候教育部说给我们一点时间"},{"start":28188.351,"end":28203.636,"text":"相信制度刚上路所以呢宣导不足所以造成这个报名的这个人数呢是如此的这低落好111年整体的报名人数是不到0.8%连一趴都不到"},{"start":28204.096,"end":28221.394,"text":"那照理来讲如果按照教育部当初的讲法来讲的话那我们已经经过三年的该宣导也都宣导了那有没有成效呢我们来看有没有成效呢111 112年113年114年我们发现报考人数越来越惨"},{"start":28222.555,"end":28238.845,"text":"完全沒有一點進步耶完全沒有一點改善那我不曉得這個政策推行這麼多年以來教育部有沒有做通盤的檢討當初的這個美意真的是非常的好我們都非常的感謝讓新住民可以順利銜接"},{"start":28239.605,"end":28251.939,"text":"台湾的这个高等教育可是没有想到现在出来的这个数据是如此的这个凄惨而且呢三年下来我们发现现在报名的人数我们看114年根本不到0.3%"},{"start":28254.862,"end":28270.038,"text":"所以我想請教部長我們到底有沒有做過通盤的檢討還是說本席還沒有詢問這個之前這好像也不是教育部的重點所在我不曉得為什麼當初的免疫會淪為這個幽靈政策請問失靈的原因有檢討過嗎請問部長"},{"start":28272.661,"end":28288.252,"text":"謝謝委員關心新住民特別他們都已經規劃我們我國國籍那他的一個高等教育的受教學其實從我們過去的一個研究發現大概過去的一個data看到新住民世上的小朋友他幾多的課業並不亞於我們"},{"start":28290.613,"end":28312.381,"text":"後來小朋友一路讀小學、國中、高中到大學他們的成績其實不遑多讓所以我們現在當然有開了一個申請入學但是委員所關心的我們怎麼去對新住民特別規劃的這些即將進入高等教育接受"},{"start":28313.221,"end":28327.706,"text":"這一個人才的培育也為產業能夠厚植實力我想這個部分我會後我再來更進一步的來了解整個我們在跟委員是不是在跟委員提出一個說明"},{"start":28328.87,"end":28348.522,"text":"來 部長剛剛您給我的回答我發現您有一點搞混了我剛剛根本就沒有提到新住民二代它是針對新住民新住民二代當然就是在台灣出生長大在台灣受教育當然比照國人我現在所講的這個政策是針對新住民本身"},{"start":28349.977,"end":28369.048,"text":"OK 我們再來看一下 這個真的是部長要跟你們部內相關的單位好好的來做探討因為連部長都搞不清楚新住民就讀大學辦法的對象到底是誰他的招生對象就是新住民跟新住民二代一點關係都沒有"},{"start":28371.329,"end":28393.555,"text":"因为新住民有很多都是在国外受教育那可能因为他的母国的教育体系可能没有办法衔接到台湾所以台湾那时候想说要友善新住民让他们能够顺利进入到高等教育所以呢还会在原有名额和原合定的名额外加百分之二的方式让他们能够考取这些"},{"start":28394.595,"end":28406.272,"text":"四千多個這個名額的這個科興問題是我們現在檢討就是說為什麼執行了我們推行了這麼多年一點成效都沒有新住民為什麼"},{"start":28407.83,"end":28430.693,"text":"我们这个美意会变成一个幽灵政策新住民为什么没有来报考我们有没有去检讨过是因为宣导不足吗说实在本席过去曾经在全国各地开过座谈会曾经就有这个问题你们晓不晓得现在我们已经修了大学法新住民可以外加2%的方式去报考大学其实很多人是不知道的"},{"start":28430.993,"end":28457.647,"text":"所以表示說宣導是不足的是委員我是請教委員委員在新住民的團體當中是相當了解他們的需求的那您提出的這個問題開出的名額那麼多報考的人數卻這麼少那是不是我們在公告上面有所不足或是在所以要檢討啦所以我現在就來問說到底是怎麼回事嗎或是我們透過新住民的團體的工作還要做加強讓他能夠告訴更多的新住民"},{"start":28458.007,"end":28485.621,"text":"有這樣的一個外加百分之二的名額可以供他們來這裡讀書讀大學是不是這個過程很夠所以我就在想說這是政府的美意為什麼在居然沒有落實好像說我定念這個了我就是友善新住民實際上很多新住民根本就不知道說原來我可以用這種方式進入到高等教育這我想想說這個部分就是教育部要去檢討的你總不能空有政策那實際上一點效果都沒有"},{"start":28486.041,"end":28508.482,"text":"所以要去檢討到底發生了什麼事情我想跟委員報告這真的委員今天的數據確實我想我們教育部內部來檢討那整個會後我也會來親自來跟委員來請教看我們到底在教育部在整個政策如何來落實因為良華免疫結果人數沒有出來部長你看到這個數據"},{"start":28509.343,"end":28521.857,"text":"很多都是從頭到尾都是掛零的難道您看到這個不會覺得很汗顏嗎為什麼會一個政策推行到這樣子居然是幾乎我們可以說是打零分而且也不是剛開始剛開始我還想說好我一定會深切來內部來做檢討也跟委員多情義"},{"start":28527.523,"end":28549.245,"text":"是的 这个部分其实三年前推行的时候本席就已经在盯着这个部分三年后再检讨还是一点成效都没有所以教育部一定要检讨那再来还有一点我们看到这个名称新住民就读大学办法难道所有的新住民都有纳入这个招生的对象吗部长我想你这部分你可能不是很了解"},{"start":28552.756,"end":28575.174,"text":"我們先來看這個新住民就讀大學辦法其實並不是所有的新住民都適用為什麼呢按照新住民就讀大學辦法第二條它裡面有提到它指的是依國籍法第四條第一項第一款到第三款的規定"},{"start":28576.415,"end":28598.306,"text":"可能部長要回去看一下補給法這個法條裡面的規定是什麼然後申請規劃的新住民一到這個法規申請規劃的新住民才能夠申請這個方案才符合這個招生的資格其實簡單的講他這個方案的招生對象只有婚姻移民只有婚姻移民"},{"start":28599.622,"end":28616.446,"text":"我們也知道現在新住民的地 我想院長應該很清楚新住民的地已經擴大解釋了已經擴大解釋我們入籍台灣的新住民其實有非常多元的管道不是只有婚姻移民"},{"start":28617.688,"end":28638.597,"text":"部長你知道嗎一般的移工未來很可能也成為新住民因為我們現在確實希望有更多的這些外籍專業人力能夠留在台灣所以國化會確實也有許多的一些相對配合的一個措施"},{"start":28639.497,"end":28667.607,"text":"來 我們來看一下像一般的這個移工一般的這個移工他如果利用流財久用方案我想這個部長也應該很清楚在台工作滿六年以上並符合一定資金之或技術條件者其實六年之後他可以升級為中階技術人力那他在中階技術人力這當中的居留期間全部可以列入合法居留期間之計算那他"},{"start":28669.808,"end":28688.519,"text":"這個搬了五年之後你看它合法居留五年之後其實它是可以申請規劃申請永居的耶所以那申請規劃之後它取得永居然後申請規劃之後它其實就是台灣的新住民好那我們現在回到來看這個新住民的這個入學辦法"},{"start":28688.959,"end":28705.351,"text":"他只針對婚姻移民當以後這些移工他規劃之後我覺得我想要申請台灣的高等教育他是排除在這個方案之外的耶因為你們這個方案裡面只針對婚姻移民"},{"start":28705.951,"end":28726.065,"text":"我們剛才想說實在有很多政策必須是要隨時都要再做檢視隨時要做滾動式的修正我們會來前面來檢視哪些的法規對我們各式各樣的一些新住民他在接受高等教育他是不利的等於說法令怎麼樣去以實際性來鬆綁"},{"start":28728.066,"end":28757.192,"text":"所以你法條上裡面也要改啊那是因為你裡面的辦法裡面就規定只有婚姻移民才可以嘛所以這個要修嘛那再來我們還有規定這個招訓的對象是規劃之後的新住民那取得永居可不可以是不是說經過了這麼多年我們應該要做通盤的檢討這個政策其實失靈了我們納入的這個對象是不是要來做擴大因為現在所謂的新住民入籍已經過"},{"start":28757.932,"end":28782.664,"text":"多元的管道不是只有單一的婚姻移民所以我現在想說這部分應該要拿出來做檢討那我希望說經過今天的這個總質詢之後我希望教育部來全面的來檢討所謂的新住民就讀大學辦法到底出了什麼問題我們是不是要把對象來擴大那不是只有規劃的婚姻移民"},{"start":28783.704,"end":28805.53,"text":"像永居這部分可不可以納入新住民的定義其實已經擴大解釋絕對不是只有婚姻移民我想這部分教育部應該要來做檢視應該要來做檢討這一題我講到這裡另外我要提到的就是有關於我國的多元海外攬財計畫為了推動多元"},{"start":28808.271,"end":28823.35,"text":"海外揽柴計畫所以我們有透過三家市產學合作專班還有新南向專班來招攬海外的僑外生到台灣來就學當然我們最希望的就是說他們學成之後能夠留台就業"},{"start":28824.011,"end":28853.151,"text":"充实台湾的这个人才的资源可是我们都知道不管是3加4或者是新南下专班其实都有许多需要检讨的地方那本席因为时间的关系所以我想针对华语文加强跟实习的内容跟院长跟部长做一个探讨那尤其是这个我们首先来讲这个语言的部分那我们都知道说这些桥外生长期呢都是在国外读书也许华语文的程度呢真的是"},{"start":28854.392,"end":28870.667,"text":"不到一定的这个就是水准所以可是我们现在是说你只要有鉴定为华语文鉴定为A1或A2就可以来谈就读可是A1跟A2的程度其实只具备日常的基本沟通能力你要到学校去"},{"start":28871.747,"end":28892.638,"text":"去聽一些專業的名詞或是專業的用語真的這些孩子是沒有辦法消化的所以我們希望就是說教育部能夠在這些孩子來的第一年一定要要求大專院校必須在課程上面加強華語文的這個課程我不曉得部長這個部分有沒有去"},{"start":28894.199,"end":28909.269,"text":"我去年520進來以後也確實看到我們產息專班存在有許多這些僑外生進來他華語文他是能力不夠的所以在上課包括工廠的一個實習他都沒有辦法去做有效的學習"},{"start":28910.35,"end":28931.278,"text":"所以我們現在事實上從這個進來要怎麼樣增強華語文各校在技高的一部分普高的一個部分到他要升到這個計算校園必須要至少要B1的這樣的一個程度從在台灣我們這個部分我們一定會來加強這部分要加強把孩子在課堂上根本聽不懂老師在講什麼我進來以後再"},{"start":28933.56,"end":28954.717,"text":"這個等於說這下半年裡邊我們開始建立了一個跟僑委會建立一個機制也就是說僑委會在積極為產業這個尋求可能的產業未來的潛在人才來到台灣就讀的同時我們希望僑委會所找的這些年輕的學子應該跟教育部我們建立了一個"},{"start":28956.818,"end":28983.146,"text":"這個次長以上的兩個跨國會合作平臺我們逐一的解釋這些學生到你去學校他是做qualify能夠真正培養人才能夠為產業所用而不是只是來這邊然後去做變效的掌控這個部分我們有許多的包含定期的這樣一個衝擊我想這一個部分在未來我們也希望說來自海外的這些"},{"start":28985.828,"end":28997.875,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":28998.251,"end":29021.59,"text":"因為在臺灣能夠做一些個人經驗上有一些更好的一些發展我想這個部分是積極的對 謝謝我剛剛提到的我會請你答對是 不僅要跟他所提到的因為時間的關係只有遠遠的部分其實其實還有一些課程實習的部分我還要跟未來的教育來做探討我希望大家"},{"start":29023.814,"end":29044.024,"text":"好謝謝羅美玲委員的質詢謝謝我們卓院長教育部長備詢謝謝喝口茶喝口水好接下來我們請本日口頭質詢最後一位委員黃婕委員請質詢"},{"start":29054.602,"end":29062.329,"text":"好 謝謝院長我們請卓院長跟李陽部長麻煩再請卓院長及體育部部長備詢黃委員好"},{"start":29074.755,"end":29100.292,"text":"好 院長好喔首先我想要在這邊提一下因為我是立法院女子運動外交促進會的會長那其實我們在這一年來有非常多的進程包括說運動部里楊部長一上任就跟我們一起簽署見證了這個IWG就是國際女性與運動的這個工作小組的宣言那我們簽署這個布萊頓宣言之後當然是一個很好的開始"},{"start":29105.055,"end":29121.637,"text":"認可台灣認為我們在運動平權上面其實是做到國際上蠻認可的包括我們已經簽了28個單項委員會然後包括加上我們然後加上中華奧會其實是世界上簽了非常多的一個國家但是這只是一個起點"},{"start":29122.438,"end":29145.219,"text":"在這邊我就想要請教院長不知道你知不知道在我們71個單項協會當中有在章程裡面明文規定任意性別理事應該要佔三分之一以上這樣子有把它寫進去的協會有幾個院長知道有幾個嗎這個我請部長來答覆大概完成的有將近60%"},{"start":29147.267,"end":29176.005,"text":"那跟我認知的差很多耶就我的認知當中七十一個單項協會裡面任一性別理事佔了三分之一以上把這個寫進去的零個我說的是任一性別達到三分之一完成理事的比例好 謝謝部長對 那我說的是說我們在章程裡面直接把這個規定放進去的比例是零個"},{"start":29177.631,"end":29196.375,"text":"所以我在這邊就是要講我們這麼講了性別主流化這麼久可是到現在71個單項協會裡面連一個協會裡面把這個放進將城的都沒有所以這個是我認為接下來我們可以努力的包括說我們運動部是不是可以鼓勵單項協會當然你說實質上"},{"start":29199.276,"end":29226.748,"text":"可能已經有參與讓女性參與決策圈的運動的決策圈的可能其實有達到六成但是我希望直接把它放進所有單項選會的章程裡面所以這個是接下來我們可以努力的目標可以嗎我會帶回去跟相關的業務單位去做討論因為有些部分比較特別的比如像女壘這樣的協會它可能在任意性別上面可能會比較難達到那可能會是專案的方法"},{"start":29227.315,"end":29247.222,"text":"好謝謝部長的承諾畢竟你也是當我們在當初這個見證我們簽署這個IWG的見證人那也包括說這個其實裡面的委員也希望我們明年可以去到英國參加IWG的會議那就我所知其實運動部跟外交部已經努力在著手這個部分"},{"start":29247.942,"end":29273.605,"text":"這個我認為是非常好的一個進程所以接下來我也希望既然我們明年即將去到英國把我們台灣運動品權的成果讓世界知道那接下來我們要走的應該是要有一個台灣的政策白皮書以及我們要有成果可以帶去展示才對所以我在這邊也希望李洋部長接下來我們應該要把這個施政計畫跟白皮書先準備好明年年度的"},{"start":29274.265,"end":29285.032,"text":"這樣我們明年七月去到英國的時候是有東西可以讓國際上知道我們到底運動品權做到什麼程度了可以嗎我們會積極的跟部內的同仁去做研議"},{"start":29285.742,"end":29312.344,"text":"好謝謝好那再來我要繼續請教部長另外一個議題不知道說部長因為自己也是選手出身你有去歐洲國家比賽過吧應該很常去當然沒錯那我想要問你有沒有發生過自己需要補貼選手的膳食費的情況就是當天我們公家機關提供的膳食費不足然後我們選手需要自己貼錢這樣的情況你有沒有發生過"},{"start":29314.602,"end":29342.068,"text":"國家隊嗎是的國家隊我沒有過所以你都很省吃到是在我們國家隊合計的這個標準裡面我是這樣沒錯好那部長非常的省那我要在這邊講我接到的陳情確實有國家隊的代表隊的選手然後單項協會都來跟我陳情都說呢因為我們現在出國比賽用的這個膳食費的支給的方式是比照公務員的日之時數的辦法"},{"start":29343.408,"end":29359.746,"text":"那如果是亞奧運的培訓隊或是黃金進化裡面四到六級的選手就是依照不同的國家可能會看那邊的生活水準物價水準分成三個級距那其實一天可以拿到的補助大概是700多塊到1000塊台幣左右"},{"start":29360.487,"end":29385.918,"text":"那其實就很多選手認為說這樣其實是不足的因為對於很多選手來說他一天在這裡可能會花到的可能是40到60美金那我們這邊給出去的大概就是30幾塊所以很多選手其實都還要自己貼錢那我聽到的時候其實也覺得很可惜很心疼我們的選手去到國外比賽但是我們給他的膳食費卻不夠他們都還要自己貼錢"},{"start":29387.419,"end":29407.177,"text":"這部分可不可以拜託我們部長可以再爭取幫他們增加膳食費呢雖然你可能都很努力的省在一千塊台幣以內但對很多選手可能他一天如果是可能舉重可能其他類型需要大重量的他可能需要的餐食費是更多的但是這樣的日資費對他們來說卻遠遠不足"},{"start":29409.399,"end":29436.716,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我也很想聽聽李洋部長的經驗好 謝謝院長這部分我自己來講當然是就符合我剛剛講的我目前是沒有那時候當選手的時候沒有遇到這樣的問題但同樣的我認為現在是所有運動如果有遇到這樣的問題我們會去做通盤的考量那在膳食費的部分那如果依現在看到這個表單的話我認為可能是在國訓中心或者是黃金計畫的部分那我們也會去跟相關的業務單位去做通盤的所有項目去做考量"},{"start":29437.588,"end":29465.948,"text":"好 謝謝部長我希望因為其實選手也都跟我們一起算過他說希望說至少一天可能他們要花大概就是40到60美金大概是這樣的金額那我們補貼最多就是大概36塊美金所以他們其實都還要花可能一倍的膳食費在他們吃的東西上面所以我覺得讓他們吃得飽可以好好的出席比賽拿出最好的表現這個應該是我們國家給予的基本支持"},{"start":29467.025,"end":29486.18,"text":"當然好 謝謝部長那再來我這邊有兩個東西想要跟我們院長來爭取我們高雄有兩個重大的運動建設我認為是接下來我們非常非常需要的一個是我希望全國第一座250公尺的國際自由車廠可以落腳在高雄"},{"start":29486.9,"end":29503.111,"text":"那這個其實是也很多人講過就是說台灣都沒有符合國際標準的室內自由車場那其實這個他們國際自由車協會公佈的標準就是250公尺嘛那其實台灣有兩個包括台中包括高雄都是333公尺"},{"start":29504.372,"end":29533.023,"text":"那他們就說這樣的其實板庫要直線太長然後彎道太不夠彎等等的這樣的問題就一直在發生所以其實我們的選手出賽的時候都會覺得說這個場地跟國際的場地是有非常大的落差的那其實我們之前也有澄清那跟高雄市政府也都討論過了之後有送案到中央那其實我那時候收到的訊息是說中央有意願要做符合國際標準的自由車廠"},{"start":29533.843,"end":29559.194,"text":"那時候說的是說接下來有三個地方有送案那我們高雄也有個男子自由車廠已經送案了那當時說總經費可能達到10億元可能會三個車廠都有可能來做所以我在這邊想要請教的是請教院長我們當時的這個進度有沒有可能順利完成可不可以在這邊承諾就讓這個全國第一座的"},{"start":29559.794,"end":29582.462,"text":"符合國際標準的自由車場可以落腳在高雄呢現在的了解是包括高雄在內有三個直轄市都提出了相關的同樣的一個計畫那剛好運動部他有一個優化全民運動與賽事的這個環境計畫那他一定要有所選擇跟這個計畫的這個評比那目前運動部應該進到這個階段裡面來"},{"start":29587.163,"end":29614.89,"text":"好 那是不是請部長進一步說明目前現在評估的進度到哪裡那我們高雄有沒有機會或者是我們高雄還要怎麼樣才可以爭取到這個自由車場在高雄目前就是這三個直轄市來做申請那我們當然因為經費有限的部分那可能會去做評估考量是否在哪個地方去落實國際的自由車場250公尺的這部分"},{"start":29615.822,"end":29619.651,"text":"所以是說三選一是三選一嗎"},{"start":29620.942,"end":29647.665,"text":"這部分的話可能當然是經費上的考量我們要試經費上的考量那要去評估好 那當然我們高雄會做最大力的爭取我也會全力來協助啦因為我相信我們高雄的條件是很好的那希望說再加上我們高雄其實都是就是國訓中心以及所有運科中心的基地嘛所以希望說接下來這樣子的有國際指標意義的自由車廠可以落腳在高雄這邊再次幫我們高雄來講話"},{"start":29648.906,"end":29667.658,"text":"那另外一個我要跟院長真的要請命的是我們澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕這個是所有高雄球迷的心聲其實高雄的這個澄清湖球場是一個南部唯一的A級的球場那容納的人數是全國最多的"},{"start":29667.978,"end":29685.397,"text":"可以做兩萬人你看其他的球場包括樂天做一萬八 天母一萬新莊一萬二 洲際一萬五那我們高雄是可以做到兩萬人可是呢我們能容納的人數最多但是螢幕卻最小"},{"start":29686.278,"end":29706.334,"text":"所以其實我們高雄的球迷每次都是進場都會說這個螢幕真的太小了雖然之前已經換了記分板但是上面的這個一些筆數或者是說上面的一些資訊想要看都看得非常吃力然後也覺得這個不符合我們高雄現在對棒球的期待所以我們現在希望"},{"start":29706.994,"end":29721.957,"text":"可以跟中央來爭取一筆經費把澄清湖這個大螢幕可以做汰換所以我在這邊想要幫我們高雄的球迷跟院長請命有沒有機會來補助汰換澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕"},{"start":29724.112,"end":29749.597,"text":"運動部或是國際體育署在去年核定的時候是針對它的衛生設備廁所以及觀眾席有一個補助但是當時提出的計畫裡面並沒有含大螢幕因為當時我了解的狀況是說因為大螢幕是希望說它的年限是20年那我們其實差了一點點所以當時就不用把這個優先放進去但是我認為非常的可惜"},{"start":29750.177,"end":29764.698,"text":"是因為現在大家對球場的需求已經不只是如此了而且年限其實就差那麼一兩年那所以有機會的話我希望是我們再用一個新的計畫是不是請部長能夠了解一下這個大螢幕的整個"},{"start":29766.089,"end":29794.122,"text":"更換 換新他的預算怎麼樣如果這個年限差一點點在違反這個規定的情況底下有沒有辦法來協助我們會再去做評估因為其實整個職業的運動聯賽我們確實有編列相關的經費在職業排球職業棒球職業籃球等等的場地那我們也希望在主場的球隊這部分能夠跟我們一起還有縣市政府可以跟我們一起去做場地的進步"},{"start":29794.704,"end":29820.581,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明也謝謝院長所以其實我覺得只要我們部會有意願然後願意來出錢那我覺得跟市府要怎麼協調我都可以來幫忙協調看是要幾比幾那大家要出幾成那最後可以把這件事情完成是最重要的所以我希望的是到時候運動部也可以告訴我說你們編列在這個職業項目裡面的設備的汰換費是多少"},{"start":29821.021,"end":29837.827,"text":"那我們總共可以爭取多少經費讓我們把這個大螢幕來換掉好 謝謝委員對運動的關心我們共同來努力好 謝謝院長好 那最後一點時間我們先謝謝李洋部長那我們請教育部陣部長請教育部長備詢委員好"},{"start":29850.526,"end":29868.067,"text":"好 部長好我在這邊也是一樣幫我們所有的基層教師來請命我剛剛已經聽了非常多位委員都在講一樣的問題但這個教師荒真的太嚴重了我相信每一位民意代表都收到大量大量的陳情那我這裡一樣也是"},{"start":29868.968,"end":29887.191,"text":"他們說什麼呢他們說過去20年我們勞工基本工資漲幅是187%近200那他們說教師的終點費漲幅只有5%那他們會覺得現在的基層教師好辛苦好心酸"},{"start":29888.132,"end":29902.67,"text":"那做起來真的只是靠理想靠熱情好像在壓榨現場的教師對於教育的熱情那我真的不希望我們對待教育的態度是這樣所以其實我也都說我一定會極力的幫忙爭取因為我認為現在的教師雖然"},{"start":29906.374,"end":29927.267,"text":"人口變少了雖然少子化他們要教的學生變少但是負擔並沒有減輕啊他們要教的東西非常的多元他們要照顧的品質又更提高然後家長的要求也都更高可是我們到現在教師的終點費然後這個導師費三千塊到現在都沒有增加"},{"start":29928.388,"end":29943.843,"text":"所以我在這邊想要請教我們部長對於基層教師給他們一點鼓勵吧給他們一點實質的加薪吧請部長答覆感謝委員關心老師的一個待遇但是我還是要先跟委員報告"},{"start":29945.086,"end":29970.568,"text":"用勞工的薪資增加將近100%然後來比較這個老師說5%我覺得這是因為他的職業類別就是不一樣工作他的整個薪資結構不同用這樣來講我想並不適合來描述當然啦只是在每一個產業裡面大家都會希望自己的待遇變好也會覺得自己有點委屈我進來以後也看到了也跟分區"},{"start":29971.309,"end":29978.742,"text":"全國幾乎我各縣市幾乎都大概去過除了離島金門馬祖我現在最近在安排還沒有我大概都有"},{"start":29987.892,"end":30012.102,"text":"所以學校有所面臨的挑戰所以跟院長報告院長也非常的關心導致的一個大陸上怎麼樣可以適合考的教育所以教育在這個部門我們確實也從導師會同層家庭從洗桌肉的面向這邊來整理來考量但是因為國共教育還是來自敵方的"},{"start":30016.493,"end":30036.459,"text":"我們想要用25個地方縣市、教育局、地方政府來談看怎麼樣有一個更好的一個中央的地方來合作來支持老實民族檔案有一個更好的一個安省利益的一個發展我想郭文貴就這樣報告那這個方案當我們就是25個地方政府"},{"start":30067.259,"end":30067.279,"text":"好"},{"start":30068.991,"end":30074.153,"text":"好谢谢谢谢黄杰委员咨询谢谢卓院长相关部会所长贝勋谢谢"},{"start":30077.352,"end":30104.99,"text":"接下來我們登記第十號范雲委員范雲委員第十一號李坤城委員第十二號張雅玲委員三位的質詢與書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報報言會教育及文化組織質詢已經詢答完畢謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢也謝謝李玉玲委員陪同我們一起參與今天的質詢我們現在做以下決定"},{"start":30105.611,"end":30109.946,"text":"下次会进行我们开始进行交通组织咨询现在散会"}]}},{"id":"165230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aa3e0903d2cad65b4285e1af54c489cd628df941f24691c63a025346619b12521c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"16:35:10 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謝謝院長我們請卓院長跟李陽部長麻煩再請卓院長及體育部部長備詢黃委員好"},{"start":26.766,"end":52.323,"text":"好 院長好喔首先我想要在這邊提一下因為我是立法院女子運動外交促進會的會長那其實我們在這一年來有非常多的進程包括說運動部里楊部長一上任就跟我們一起簽署見證了這個IWG就是國際女性與運動的這個工作小組的宣言那我們簽署這個布萊頓宣言之後當然是一個很好的開始"},{"start":57.086,"end":73.652,"text":"認可台灣認為我們在運動平權上面其實是做到國際上蠻認可的包括我們已經簽了28個單項委員會然後包括加上我們然後加上中華奧會其實是世界上簽了非常多的一個國家但是這只是一個起點"},{"start":74.452,"end":97.21,"text":"在這邊我就想要請教院長不知道你知不知道在我們71個單項協會當中有在章程裡面明文規定任意性別理事應該要占三分之一以上這樣子有把它寫進去的協會有幾個院長知道有幾個嗎這個我請部長來答覆大概完成的有將近60%"},{"start":99.301,"end":128.016,"text":"那跟我認知的差很多耶就我的認知當中七十一個單項協會裡面任一性別理事佔了三分之一以上把這個寫進去的零個我說的是任一性別達到三分之一完成理事的比例好 謝謝部長對 那我說的是說我們在章程裡面直接把這個規定放進去的比例是零個"},{"start":129.682,"end":148.406,"text":"所以我在這邊就是要講我們這麼講了性別主流化這麼久可是到現在71個單項協會裡面連一個協會裡面把這個放進將城的都沒有所以這個是我認為接下來我們可以努力的包括說我們運動部是不是可以鼓勵單項協會當然你說實質上"},{"start":151.307,"end":178.779,"text":"可能已經有參與讓女性參與決策圈的運動的決策圈的可能其實有達到六成但是我希望直接把它放進所有單向選會的章程裡面所以這個是接下來我們可以努力的目標可以嗎我會帶回去跟相關的業務單位去做討論因為有些部分比較特別的比如像女壘這樣的協會它可能在任意性別上面可能會比較難達到那可能會是專案的方法"},{"start":179.346,"end":204.472,"text":"好謝謝部長的承諾畢竟你也是當我們在當初這個見證我們簽署這個IWG的見證人那也包括說這個其實裡面的委員也希望我們明年可以去到英國參加IWG的會議那就我所知其實運動部跟外交部已經努力在著手這個部分這個我認為是非常好的一個進程所以接下來我也希望既然我們明年"},{"start":204.932,"end":233.544,"text":"即將去到英國把我們台灣運動品權的成果讓世界知道那接下來我們要走的應該是要有一個台灣的政策白皮書以及我們要有成果可以帶去展示才對所以我在這邊也希望李洋部長接下來我們應該要把這個施政計畫跟白皮書先準備好明年年度的這樣我們明年七月去到英國的時候是有東西可以讓國際上知道我們到底運動品權做到什麼程度了可以嗎"},{"start":234.315,"end":237.045,"text":"我們會積極的跟部內的同仁去做演繹"},{"start":237.776,"end":264.354,"text":"好 謝謝好 那再來我要繼續請教部長另外一個議題喔不知道說部長因為自己也是選手出身你有去歐洲國家比賽過吧應該很常去當然沒錯 那我想要問你有沒有發生過自己需要補貼選手的膳食費的情況就是當天我們公家機關提供的膳食費不足然後我們選手需要自己貼錢這樣的情況你有沒有發生過"},{"start":266.633,"end":294.082,"text":"國家隊嗎是的國家隊我沒有過所以你都很省吃到是在我們國家隊合計的這個標準裡面我是這樣沒錯好那部長非常的省那我要在這邊講我接到的陳情確實有國家隊的代表隊的選手然後單項協會都來跟我陳情都說呢因為我們現在出國比賽用的這個膳食費的支給的方式是比照公務員的日之時數的辦法"},{"start":295.422,"end":311.78,"text":"那如果是亚奥运的培训队或是黄金进化里面四到六级的选手就是依照不同的国家可能会看那边的生活水准物价水准分成三个级距那其实一天可以拿到的补助大概是700多块到1000块台币左右"},{"start":312.521,"end":337.949,"text":"那其實就很多選手認為說這樣其實是不足的因為對於很多選手來說他一天在這裡可能會花到的可能是40到60美金那我們這邊給出去的大概就是30幾塊所以很多選手其實都還要自己貼錢那我聽到的時候其實也覺得很可惜很心疼我們的選手去到國外比賽但是我們給他的膳食費卻不夠他們都還要自己貼錢"},{"start":339.449,"end":359.35,"text":"這部分可不可以拜託我們部長可以再爭取幫他們增加膳食費呢雖然你可能都很努力的省在1000塊台幣以內但對很多選手可能他一天如果是可能舉重可能其他類型需要大重量的他可能需要的餐食費是更多的但是這樣的日資費對他們來說卻遠遠不足"},{"start":361.432,"end":388.749,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我也很想聽聽李洋部長的經驗好 謝謝院長這部分我自己來講當然是就符合我剛剛講的我目前是沒有那時候當選手的時候沒有遇到這樣的問題但同樣的我認為現在是所有運動如果有遇到這樣的問題我們會去做通盤的考量那在膳食費的部分那如果依現在看到這個表單的話我認為可能是在國訓中心或者是黃金計畫的部分那我們也會去跟相關的業務單位去做通盤的所有項目去做考量"},{"start":389.602,"end":417.979,"text":"好 謝謝部長我希望因為其實選手也都跟我們一起算過他說希望說至少一天可能他們要花大概就是40到60美金大概是這樣的金額那我們補貼最多就是大概36塊美金所以他們其實都還要花可能一倍的膳食費在他們吃的東西上面所以我覺得讓他們吃得飽可以好好的出席比賽拿出最好的表現這個應該是我們國家給予的基本支持"},{"start":419.896,"end":438.205,"text":"好謝謝部長那再來我這邊有兩個東西想要跟我們院長來爭取我們高雄有兩個重大的運動建設我認為是接下來我們非常非常需要的一個是我希望全國第一座250公尺的國際自由車場可以落腳在高雄"},{"start":438.925,"end":461.792,"text":"那這個其實是也很多人講過就是說台灣都沒有符合國際標準的室內自由車場那其實這個他們國際自由車協會公佈的標準就是250公尺嘛那其實台灣有兩個包括台中包括高雄都是333公尺那他們就說這樣的其實半空要直線太長然後彎道太太"},{"start":462.332,"end":485.053,"text":"不夠彎等等的這樣的問題都一直在發生所以其實我們的選手出賽的時候都會覺得說這個場地跟國際的場地是有非常大的落差的那其實我們之前也有澄清那跟高雄市政府也都討論過了之後有送案到中央那其實我那時候收到的訊息是說中央有意願要做符合國際標準的自由車廠"},{"start":485.874,"end":511.229,"text":"那時候說的是說接下來有三個地方有送案那我們高雄也有個男子自由車廠已經送案了那當時說總經費可能達到10億元可能會三個車廠都有可能來做所以我在這邊想要請教的是請教院長我們當時的這個進度有沒有可能順利完成可不可以在這邊承諾就讓這個全國第一座的"},{"start":511.809,"end":534.749,"text":"符合國際標準的自由車場可以落腳在高雄呢現在的了解是包括高雄在內有三個直轄市都提出了相關的同樣的一個計劃那剛好運動部他有一個優化全民運動與賽事的這個環境計劃那他一定要有所選擇跟這個計劃的這個評比那目前運動部應該進到這個階段"},{"start":539.173,"end":566.93,"text":"好 那是不是請部長進一步說明目前現在評估的進度到哪裡那我們高雄有沒有機會或者是我們高雄還要怎麼樣才可以爭取到這個自由車場在高雄目前就是這三個直轄市來做申請那我們當然因為經費有限的部分那可能會去做評估考量是否在哪個地方去落實國際的自由車場250公尺的這部分"},{"start":567.836,"end":571.685,"text":"所以是說三選一是三選一嗎"},{"start":572.973,"end":599.695,"text":"這部分的話可能當然是經費上的考量我們要試經費上的考量那要去評估好那當然我們高雄會做最大力的爭取我也會全力來協助啦因為我相信我們高雄的條件是很好的那希望說再加上我們高雄其實都是就是國訓中心以及所有運科中心的基地嘛所以希望說接下來這樣子的有國際指標意義的自由車廠可以落腳在高雄這邊再次幫我們高雄來講話"},{"start":600.936,"end":619.694,"text":"那另外一個我要跟院長真的要請命的是我們澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕這個是所有高雄球迷的心聲其實高雄的這個澄清湖球場是一個南部唯一的A級的球場那容納的人數是全國最多的"},{"start":619.994,"end":637.407,"text":"可以做兩萬人你看其他的球場包括樂天做一萬八 天母一萬新莊一萬二 洲際一萬五那我們高雄是可以做到兩萬人可是呢我們能容納的人數最多但是螢幕卻最小"},{"start":638.288,"end":658.367,"text":"所以其實我們高雄的球迷每次都是進場都會說這個螢幕真的太小了雖然之前已經換了記分板但是上面的這個一些筆數或者是說上面的一些資訊想要看都看得非常吃力然後也覺得這個不符合我們高雄現在對棒球的期待所以我們現在希望"},{"start":659.028,"end":673.99,"text":"可以跟中央來爭取一筆經費把澄清湖這個大螢幕可以做汰換所以我在這邊想要幫我們高雄的球迷跟院長請命有沒有機會來補助汰換澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕"},{"start":676.767,"end":701.648,"text":"運動部或是國際體育署在去年核定的時候是針對它的衛生設備廁所以及觀眾席有一個補助但是當時提出的計畫裡面並沒有含大螢幕因為當時我了解的狀況是說因為大螢幕是希望說它的年限是20年那我們其實差了一點點所以當時就沒有把這個優先放進去但是我認為非常的可惜"},{"start":702.208,"end":716.726,"text":"是因為現在大家對球場的需求已經不只是如此了而且年限其實就差那麼一兩年那所以有機會的話我希望是我們再用一個新的計畫是不是請部長能夠了解一下這個大螢幕的整個"},{"start":718.123,"end":746.133,"text":"更換 換新他的預算怎麼樣如果這個年限差一點點在違反這個規定的情況底下有沒有辦法來協助我們會再去做評估因為其實整個職業的運動聯賽我們確實有編列相關的經費在職業排球 職業棒球 職業籃球等等的場地那我們也希望在主場的球隊這部分能夠跟我們一起還有縣市政府可以跟我們一起去做場地的進步"},{"start":746.718,"end":772.598,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明也謝謝院長所以其實我覺得只要我們部會有意願然後願意來出錢那我覺得跟市府要怎麼協調我都可以來幫忙協調看是要幾比幾那大家要出幾成那最後可以把這件事情完成是最重要的所以我希望的是到時候運動部也可以告訴我說你們編列在這個職業項目裡面的設備的汰換費是多少"},{"start":773.058,"end":790.631,"text":"那我們總共可以爭取多少經費讓我們把這個大螢幕來換掉謝謝委員對運動的關心我們共同來努力好謝謝院長好那最後一點時間我們先謝謝呃李楊部長那我們請教育部政部長請教育部長備詢委員好"},{"start":802.557,"end":820.098,"text":"好 不准好 我在這邊也是一樣幫我們所有的基層教師來請命我剛剛已經聽了非常多位委員都在講一樣的問題但這個教師荒真的太嚴重了我相信每一位民意代表都收到大量大量的陳情那我這裡一樣也是"},{"start":820.979,"end":839.219,"text":"他們說什麼呢他們說過去20年我們勞工基本工資漲幅是187%近200那他們說教師的終點費漲幅只有5%那他們會覺得現在的基層教師好辛苦好心酸"},{"start":840.14,"end":856.87,"text":"那做起來真的只是靠理想靠熱情好像在壓榨現場的教師對於教育的熱情那我真的不希望我們對待教育的態度是這樣所以其實我也都說我一定會極力的幫忙爭取因為我認為現在的教師雖然"},{"start":858.391,"end":879.279,"text":"人口變少了雖然少子化他們要教的學生變少但是負擔並沒有減輕啊他們要教的東西非常的多元他們要照顧的品質又更提高然後家長的要求也都更高可是我們到現在教師的終點費然後這個導師費三千塊到現在都沒有增加"},{"start":880.419,"end":895.877,"text":"所以我在這邊想要請教我們部長對於基層教師給他們一點鼓勵吧給他們一點實質的加薪吧請部長答覆感謝委員關心老師的一個待遇但是我還是要先跟委員報告"},{"start":897.116,"end":922.566,"text":"用勞工的薪資增加將近100%然後來比較這個老師說5%我覺得這是因為他的職業類別就是不一樣工作他的整個薪資結構不同用這樣來講我想並不適合來描述當然啦只是在每一個產業裡面大家都會希望自己的待遇變好也會覺得自己有點委屈我進來以後也看到了也跟分區"},{"start":923.346,"end":930.76,"text":"全國幾乎我各縣市幾乎都大概去過除了離島金門馬祖我現在最近在安排還沒有我大概都有"},{"start":936.698,"end":965.452,"text":"那也從我聽到了老師對學校所面臨的挑戰的故事我也跟院長報告院長也非常的關心老師的一個道義上怎麼樣可以適合考的一個教育所以教育在這一個環境我們確實也從導師會同時加急從許多人的面向裡面來整理來考量但是因為流動教育還是來自隱患人的知識權限"},{"start":969.698,"end":989.753,"text":"市長要問二十多個地方縣市、教育局、地方座委來談看怎麼樣有一個更好的一個中央的部分來合作來指持老師您會讓他有一個更好的一個安靜物品的一個發展我想跟委員會這樣子報告那這一個方案當委員會是二十多個地方的意思"},{"start":1019.29,"end":1019.31,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（16時35分）謝謝院長，請卓院長跟李洋部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及體育部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：院長好。首先，我想要在這邊提一下，因為我是立法院女子運動外交促進會的會長，其實我們在這一年來有非常多的進程，包括運動部李洋部長一上任就跟我們一起簽署並見證IWG，也就是「國際女性與運動工作小組」的宣言。我們簽署布萊頓宣言之後，這當然是一個很好的開始，而且IWG裡面的委員也很認可臺灣，認為我們在運動平權上面其實是做到國際蠻認可的，包括我們已經簽了28個單項委員會，包括加上我們及中華奧會，是世界上簽了非常多的一個國家，但是這只是一個起點。在這邊我想要請教院長，你知不知道在71個單項協會當中，有在章程裡面明文規定「任一性別理事應占三分之一以上」的協會有幾個？院長知道有幾個嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分我請部長來答復。"],["李部長洋：完成的大概有將近60%。"],["黃委員捷：那跟我認知的差很多欸！就我的認知當中，71個單項協會裡面，把「任一性別理事應占三分之一以上」寫進去的是0個！"],["李部長洋：跟委員報告，我說的是完成任一性別達到三分之一理事的性別比例。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。我說的是在章程裡面直接把這個規定放進去的比例是0個，我在這邊就是要說，我們講性別主流化這麼久，可是到現在71個單項協會裡面，連1個把這個規定放進章程的協會都沒有，所以這個是我認為接下來可以努力的部分，包括運動部是不是可以鼓勵單項協會，當然你說實質上可能已經有讓女性參與運動決策圈的可能其實有達到六成，但是我希望直接把它放進所有單項協會的章程裡面，這個是接下來我們可以努力的目標，可以嗎？"],["李部長洋：我會帶回去跟相關的業務單位討論，因為有些部分比較特別的，比如像女壘這樣的協會，在任意性別上面也許會比較難達到，可能會採專案的方法。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長的承諾。畢竟你也是當初我們在簽署IWG的見證人，裡面的委員也希望我們明年可以到英國參加IWG的會議，就我所知其實運動部跟外交部已經努力在著手這個部分，我認為是非常好的一個進程。接下來，我也希望既然我們明年即將到英國，把我們臺灣運動平權的成果讓世界知道，所以我們要做的應該是要有一個臺灣的政策白皮書以及相關的成果，可以帶去展示才對。我也希望李洋部長應該要把明年年度的施政計畫跟白皮書先準備好，這樣我們明年7月到英國的時候，是有東西可以讓國際知道我們的運動平權到底做到什麼程度了，可以嗎？"],["李部長洋：我們會積極地跟部內的同仁研議。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。再來我要繼續請教部長另外一個議題，因為部長也是選手出身，你有去歐洲國家比賽過吧？應該很常去？"],["李部長洋：當然。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，那我想要問，你有沒有發生過自己需要補貼選手膳食費的情況，就是當天公家機關提供的膳食費不足，然後選手需要自己貼錢的情況，你有沒有發生過？"],["李部長洋：國家隊嗎？"],["黃委員捷：是的。"],["李部長洋：在國家隊時，我沒有發生過這樣的事情。"],["黃委員捷：所以你都很省，吃的部分是在我們國家隊核給的標準裡面。"],["李部長洋：我是這樣沒錯。"],["黃委員捷：好，部長非常的省。那我要在這邊講我接到的陳情，確實有國家隊的代表隊選手、單項協會都來跟我陳情說，我們現在出國比賽用的膳食費支給方式，是比照公務員的日支時數辦法，如果是亞奧運的培訓隊或是黃金計畫裡面4到6級的選手，就是依照不同的國家，可能會看那邊的生活水準、物價水準分成三個級距，其實一天可以拿到的補助大概是七百多塊到一千塊臺幣左右，很多選手認為這樣其實是不足的，因為對於很多選手來說，他一天在這裡可能會花到40到60美金，而我們這邊給出去的錢大概就是三十幾塊，所以其實很多選手都還要自己貼錢。","我聽到的時候，覺得很可惜、很心疼，我們的選手去到國外比賽，但是我們給的膳食費卻不夠，他們都還要自己貼錢，這部分可不可以拜託部長，可以再幫他們爭取增加膳食費呢？雖然你可能都很努力地省在1,000塊臺幣以內，但對很多選手而言，如果是舉重或其他類型需要大重量的，他們需要的餐食費是可能更多的，但是這樣的日支費對他們來說卻遠遠不足。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個我也很想聽聽李洋部長的經驗。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長。"],["李部長洋：這部分就我自己來講，當然符合我剛剛講的，我當選手的時候，沒有遇到這樣的問題。但同樣的，我認為現在所有運動，如果有遇到這樣的問題，我們會去通盤考量，在膳食費部分，如果依現在看到的這個表單的話，我認為可能是在國訓中心或者是黃金計畫的部分，我們也會跟相關業務單位就所有項目通盤考量。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。其實選手也都跟我們一起算過，他們說希望一天可能要花的錢至少就是四十到六十美金，大概是這樣的金額，而我們補貼最多大概就是36塊美金，所以他們可能都還要花一倍的膳食費在吃的東西上面。我覺得讓他們吃得飽，可以好好地出席比賽，拿出最好的表現，這應該是我們國家給予的基本支持。"],["李部長洋：當然。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。再來，我這邊有兩個東西想要跟我們院長爭取。我們高雄有兩個重大的運動建設，我認為是接下來我們非常非常需要的。一個是我希望全國第一座250公尺的國際自由車場可以落腳在高雄，這個其實也有很多人講過，就是臺灣都沒有符合國際標準的室內自由車場。國際自由車協會公布的標準就是250公尺，臺灣有兩個車場，包括臺中、高雄都是333公尺，但他們說這樣的場地包括直線太長，然後彎道不夠彎等等的問題，都一直在發生，所以我們選手出賽的時候，都會覺得這個場地跟國際的場地有非常大的落差。","其實我們之前有陳情，跟高雄市政府也都討論過了，之後有送案到中央，我那時候收到的訊息是說中央有意願要做符合國際標準的自由車場，那時候說接下來有三個地方有送案，我們高雄也有一個男子自由車場已經送案了，當時說總經費可能達到10億元，三個車場都有可能來做。所以我在這邊想要請教院長，當時的這個進度有沒有可能順利完成？可不可以在這邊承諾，讓全國第一座符合國際標準的自由車場可以落腳在高雄呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在了解是包括高雄在內，有三個直轄市都提出了相關的計畫，剛好運動部有一個優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫，它一定要有所選擇跟計畫評比，目前運動部應該進到這個階段裡面來。"],["黃委員捷：好，是不是請部長進一步說明目前評估的進度到哪裡？我們高雄有沒有機會？或者是我們高雄還要怎麼樣才可以爭取到自由車場在高雄？"],["李部長洋：目前就是這三個轄市來申請，當然因為經費有限，我們可能會評估考量是否在哪個地方去落實250公尺國際自由車場的部分。"],["黃委員捷：所以是三選一？是三選一嗎？"],["李部長洋：這部分的話，可能經費上的考量，我們要視經費考量，然後去評估。"],["黃委員捷：好，當然我們高雄會做最大力的爭取，我也會全力協助，因為我相信我們高雄的條件是很好的，再加上高雄其實是國訓中心及所有運科中心的基地，所以希望接下來這樣一個具有國際指標意義的自由車場可以落腳在高雄，我再次幫我們高雄講話。","另外一個我要跟院長請命的是，我們澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕，這是所有高雄球迷的心聲啊！高雄的澄清湖球場是南部唯一的A級球場，可容納的人數是全國最多的，可以坐兩萬人，你看其他的球場，包括樂天一萬八、天母一萬、新莊一萬二、洲際一萬五，那我們高雄是可以坐到兩萬人，我們能容納的人數最多，但是螢幕卻最小，所以我們高雄的球迷每次進場都會說這個螢幕真的太小了，雖然之前已經換了計分板，但是上面的比數或者資訊，想要看都看得非常吃力，然後也覺得這不符合我們高雄現在對棒球的期待，所以我們現在希望可以跟中央爭取一筆經費，汰換澄清湖球場的大螢幕。我在這邊想要幫我們高雄的球迷跟院長請命，請問有沒有機會來補助汰換澄清湖棒球場的大螢幕？"],["卓院長榮泰：運動部或過去的體育署在去年核定的時候，是針對它的衛生設備、廁所及觀眾席有一個補助，但是當時提出的計畫裡面真的沒有含大螢幕。"],["黃委員捷：並沒有大螢幕沒錯，當時我了解的狀況是，因為大螢幕的年限是20年，我們其實差了一點點，所以當時就沒有把這個優先放進去，但是我認為非常可惜，是因為現在大家對於球場的需求已經不只是如此了，而且年限其實就差那麼一、兩年，所以有機會的話，我希望可以再擬訂一個新計畫。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長了解一下？"],["黃委員捷：好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個大螢幕的換新，它的預算怎麼樣，如果這個年限差一點點，在不違反規定的情況底下，看看有沒有辦法來協助。"],["李部長洋：我們會再去做評估，其實針對整個職業運動聯賽，我們確實有編列相關的經費，在職業排球、職業棒球、職業籃球等等的場地，我們也希望在主場的球隊，這部分能夠跟我們一起，還有縣市政府可以跟我們一起去做場地的改進。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明，也謝謝院長。所以我覺得只要部會有意願，然後願意出錢，我覺得跟市府要怎麼協調，我都可以來幫忙，看是要幾比幾、大家要出幾成，最後可以把這件事情完成是最重要的。我希望到時候運動部也可以告訴我說，你們編列在職業項目裡面的設備汰換費是多少、我們總共可以爭取多少經費，讓我們把這個螢幕換掉。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員對運動的關心，我們共同來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長。","最後一點時間，我們先謝謝李洋部長，現在請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請教育部部長備詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。我在這邊也是一樣要幫我們所有的基層教師來請命，我剛剛已經聽了非常多位委員都在講一樣的問題，這個教師荒真的太嚴重了，我相信每一位民意代表都收到大量的陳情，我這裡一樣也是。他們說什麼呢？他們說過去20年勞工基本工資漲幅是187%，接近200%，但是教師的鐘點費漲幅只有5%，他們覺得現在的基層教師好辛苦、好心酸，做起來真的只是靠理想、靠熱情，好像在壓榨現場的教師對於教育的熱情。我真的不希望我們對待教育的態度是這樣，所以我也都說我一定會極力的幫忙爭取，因為我認為現在的教師，雖然因為少子化人口變少了，他們要教的學生變少了，但是負擔並沒有減輕啊！他們要教的東西非常的多元，他們要照顧的品質又要更提高，然後家長的要求也都更高，可是教師的鐘點費和導師費三千塊到現在都沒有增加，所以我在這邊想要請部長，對於基層教師給他們一點鼓勵吧！給他們一點實質的加薪吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長答復。"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心老師的待遇。但我還是要先跟委員報告，用勞工的薪資增加將近200%，然後來比較老師說5%，我覺得這是……因為他的職業類別就是不一樣，整個薪資結構不同，用這樣來講，我想並不是適合的描述，但是……"],["黃委員捷：當然啦！只是在每個產業裡面……"],["鄭部長英耀：我也要跟委員報告，事實上因為非常多的委員……"],["黃委員捷：大家都會希望自己的待遇變好，也會覺得自己有點委屈。"],["鄭部長英耀：我進來以後也看到了，全國各縣市我幾乎都去過，除了離島金門、馬祖，我最近在安排。我大概都有一些場合跟老師、家長及校長、團體來座談，也充分聽到了老師跟學校裡面所面臨的挑戰跟困境。我也跟院長報告，院長也非常關心老師的待遇上，怎麼樣給他們更好的照顧。","所以教育部在這個部分，我們確實也從……導師部分會從職務加給、從許多面向整體考量，但因為國民教育還是來自於地方的自治權限，所以院長也特別責成國教署署長一定要跟22個地方縣市教育局處、地方政府談，看怎麼樣有更好的方式，中央跟地方合作、支持老師，能夠讓他有更好的一個安身立命的發展，我想跟委員做這樣的報告。而這一個方案，當我們跟22個地方縣市提這一個討論完以後，我們就會把具體的方案陳給院長核示。"],["黃委員捷：好，那我可不可以拜託部長，我們明年上半年就完成這22縣市的座談？然後大家有個共識之後，我們希望可以看到明年下半年就讓導師費增加、就讓教師的鐘點費增加。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們的進度，我們希望能夠比委員想像得更早。"],["黃委員捷：好，太棒了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會往合理化來努力，希望地方政府能夠支持，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長、謝謝院長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來登記第10號范雲委員、第11號李坤城委員、第12號張雅琳委員三位的質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員范雲書面質詢：","案由：本院委員范雲，就現況教育現場發生「教師荒」現象分析原因多重，本次就其中高級中等以下學校教師發生疑似性侵害、體罰、霸凌等事件召開校事會議之做法引發各界疑慮，以及現職教師待遇議題兩原因，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、本席曾於2024年9月26日教師節前夕邀集全國教師及家長團體召開「教育現場多頭燒，全臺教師荒」記者會，以數據指出教師荒現象，並分析五大原因：(一)108課綱，全新備課支援少。(二)各項加給過低，不符耗費心力。(三)行政繁重，偏離教學專業。(四)性平霸凌頻傳，教師疲累。(五)校園職場霸凌，不友善職場等。後於2024年10月15日總質詢卓榮泰院長，要求行政院和教育部務實面對「教師荒」，獲院長承諾將「合理調整人與錢，全力協助！」然至今（2025）年，教師荒仍加劇，引發各界擔憂。","二、針對前開分析議題(四)，近期各教師團體多次召開記者會或提出倡議，要求廢除校事會議，教育部亦提出「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」修正案以為因應。然綜觀校事會議起源於對校園裡處於權力不對等地位之學生保護及保障之機制，不宜貿然廢除；但現況落實情形確實造成校園承擔評斷教師之重責大任，亦嚴重影響教學專業及品質；校事會議相關機制之改革確有必要。經查，其他國家相似制度有將行政調查及判斷之機制「獨立於校園外」之做法，例如區域有正式聽證會、教師懲戒委員會或是全國的專業審查等。爰要求教育部針對相關議題改革，應先進行跨國比較研究，瞭解其他國家如何因應相關議題，才能確實做為臺灣改革之參考，提出具體有效得同時保障親師生權利之機制，同時不對教育現場造成負面影響。","三、針對前開分析議題(二)，近期各界多指出「教師荒」之重要因素為教師待遇未跟上目前臺灣整體薪資水準。近年世界各國均有教師荒問題，亦有針對教師待遇進行之對策及改革。經查，國教院曾於2017年進行相關議題跨國比較分析，至今已8年，時空背景皆有轉變；爰要求教育部進行各國教師聘任及待遇制度進行跨國研究，以做為臺灣改革之參考。","四、綜上，前開說明二、三之相關事項，敬請於一個月內回覆規劃內容及預計期程之書面報告。"],["委員李坤城書面質詢：","案由：本院委員李坤城針對根據台灣民主實驗室「精準推播與認知滲透：TikTok對台灣青少年資訊環境與對中國觀感的影響──2025 TikTok抖音台灣青少年使用者調查報告」，報告提到TikTok會推送政治內容，並以隱性方式融入，傳達「統一影響不大」或透過台灣內部議題塑造「民主體制失敗」的敘事，以削弱民眾對民主的信心。此外，TikTok抖音台上的網路霸凌，擦邊色情內容、兒童性剝削、詐騙、跟蹤騷擾、弱勢族群遭娛樂化侵擾，自我傷害等偏差行為亦可能對使用者造成嚴重影響，爰此，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、青少年對於中國威脅普遍來說是缺乏想像的，台灣社會也相對缺乏針對青少年世代進行有關中國威脅與兩岸衝突可能情境的有效溝通，請行政院責成教育部就青少年世代如何識讀中國對台灣的威脅，提出具體因應作為。","二、TikTok抖音的影響不僅限於政治與公共議題的資訊操弄層面，還涉及更廣泛的社會與心理問題。例如，平台內容與演算法特性可能對民眾與青少年造成負面的身心影響，並加劇他們在社群媒體上的經營焦慮。此外，網路霸凌現象在TikTok抖音上亦不容忽視，而同樣值得警惕的是，平台上可能存在嚴重的色情內容、兒少性剝削與詐騙問題。請行政院責成教育部正視數位演算法對兒少心理健康與隱私的潛在威脅，應建立常態化監測與早期介入機制，並盡速建立兼顧人權保障與心理安全的數位使用環境。","案由：本院委員李坤城針對中國棒球城市聯賽（CPB）「上海兄弟」不但撞名台灣「中信兄弟」，就連隊徽、吉祥物大象；黃色都和中信兄弟十分神似，引發球迷強烈不滿聲浪，此外「CPB」的LOGO與台灣的中職「CPBL」也有雷同之處，甚至中國CPB文宣刻意把台北101地標與中國建築物並列，夾帶台灣為中國的一部分之統戰思維，意圖混淆國際視聽，爰此，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、棒球是台灣的國球，台灣有非常優秀的職棒人才，職棒環境也優於中國，與國人有相當程度的感情連接。行政院應立即責成運動部與陸委會等相關部會召開跨部會議研議出一套可行性方案，以及向國人說明政府有什麼策略可以阻擋中國一步步的吞蝕台灣職棒資源，並建立赴中執教或比賽的「登錄制度」與「風險審查」等機制以守護台灣的國球、棒球人才及球迷權益。","二、關於企業是否有資助中國球隊疑義，行政院應通盤檢視企業是否在符合法律規範下從事體育交流，無論是赴中投資或任職，都應遵循我國的相關法律規範。"],["委員張雅琳書面質詢：","一、文化部自111年起推動「文化ESG」政策，協調金融監督管理委員會、臺灣證券交易所及櫃買中心，將企業支持文化發展納入「上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則」第27條之1，鼓勵企業以捐贈、贊助、投資、採購、策略合作或志願服務等方式挹注藝文與文創產業。並自112年起，公司治理評鑑新增「4.22國內文化發展」指標。","然2023年受評公司得分比例僅5.69%，2024年雖提升至9.21%，顯示整體企業投入文化發展的深度與廣度仍有限。","整體而言，文化ESG政策雖已具初步制度化成果，但仍欠缺中央層級的統合推動力道。請行政院整合文化部、金融監督管理委員會等相關部會，建立跨部會的永續發展政策協調與推動機制，以提升企業在ESG中投入文化發展的比例，並檢討現行評鑑與獎勵制度，強化政策誘因與執行力，使文化ESG能從部會倡議與示範階段，進一步發展為具長期產業誘因與制度化支撐的國家級永續推動體系。","二、日本電影《國寶》以商業與藝術兼顧的手法，成功將傳統歌舞伎文化轉化為具市場吸引力的影視內容，兼顧文化底蘊與產業價值。相較之下，台灣電影產業長期存在商業與藝術分野過大的現象，具文化深度或傳統技藝題材的作品難以進入主流市場，文化資源與產業能量之間的落差仍待彌合。近年雖有文化部推動影視內容發展政策，但整體缺乏跨部會層級的文化與產業整合視野。","請行政院說明，未來如何統籌文化部、經濟部等相關部會，從產業政策、影視投資、國際行銷與教育推廣等層面，建立協作機制，推動台灣電影以文化為核心的內容創新，強化文化敘事的市場轉化能力，使文化價值不再被侷限於藝術領域，而能成為台灣影視產業的核心競爭力。"],["主席：報告院會，教育及文化組之質詢已經詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。也謝謝呂玉玲委員陪同我們一起參與今天的質詢。","現在作以下決定：下次會議開始進行交通組之質詢。現在散會。","散會（16時52分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aa0ba072041d9fdb9085e1af54c489cd628df941f24691c63af88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"16:18:07 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首先本期要就新住民大學入學方案成效不佳的問題要跟院長還有部長做一個探討為了鼓勵新住民持續進入高等教育所以我們在108年11月的時候修訂了大學法第25條第一項然後在109年12月的時候訂定了新住民就讀大學辦法以不佔原核定名額外加2%的方式"},{"start":55.222,"end":84.768,"text":"鼓励这个规划后的新住民报考大学那立法的这个目的呢是非常的呃友善也是希望呃友善新住民可以顺利衔接这个台湾的高等教育可是这制度上路之后呢报考的新住民人数真的是非常非常的低那本席曾经在111年的时候呢跟教育部呢探讨过报考人数多的这个报考人数低的这个问题啊可是当时呢教育部就"},{"start":85.188,"end":102.442,"text":"就有回應說因為制度剛上路那也許是因為宣導不足所以給教育部一點時間那當時本席就曾經跟建議教育部務必要跟移民署來合作讓政策宣導可以下放到基層"},{"start":103.203,"end":125.23,"text":"可是我们现在来看三年过去了到底成效如何那有关于这个新住民就读的大学的这个办法这个实施之后我们可以先来看111年111年全国有71所大专院校的不管是在副学士班学士班或者是说硕士班"},{"start":126.01,"end":139.735,"text":"博士班其实都有开出了这个名额那时候的招生名额总计全国是4135位可是我们看报考的人数呢有多少呢其实总计只有33位"},{"start":141.696,"end":163.772,"text":"我们开出了4000多的名额可是呢报考的人数只有33位那录取的人是只有11位而且报名有些地方报名的人数甚至一直以来都是挂零的那时候呢本席曾经在111年的时候跟教育部来做探讨的时候教育部说给我们一点时间"},{"start":164.372,"end":190.692,"text":"相信制度刚上路所以呢宣导不足所以造成这个报名的这个人数呢是如此的这低落好111年整体的报名人数是不到0.8%连一趴都不到那再来讲如果按照教育部当初的讲法来讲的话那我们已经经过三年的该宣导也都宣导了那有没有成效呢我们来看有没有成效呢111"},{"start":192.894,"end":208.093,"text":"112年 113年 114年我們發現報考人數越來越慘耶完全沒有一點進步耶完全沒有一點改善那我不曉得這個政策推行這麼多年以來教育部有沒有做通盤的檢討"},{"start":209.335,"end":227.97,"text":"当初的这个美意真的是非常的好我们都非常的感谢让新住民可以顺利衔接台湾的这个高等教育可是没有想到现在出来的这个数据是如此的这个凄惨而且呢三年下来我们发现现在报名的人数我们看114年根本不到0.3%"},{"start":230.892,"end":246.063,"text":"所以我想請教部長我們到底有沒有做過通盤的檢討還是說本席還沒有詢問這個之前這好像也不是教育部的重點所在我不曉得為什麼當初的免疫會淪為這個幽靈政策請問失靈的原因有檢討過嗎請問部長"},{"start":248.682,"end":264.275,"text":"謝謝委員關心新住民特別他們都已經規劃我們我國國籍那他的一個高等教育的受教型其實從我們過去的一個研究發現大概過去的一個data看到新住民世上的小朋友他幾多的課業並不亞於我們"},{"start":266.637,"end":288.405,"text":"後來小朋友一路讀小學、國中、高中到大學他們的成績其實不遑多讓所以我們現在當然有開了一個申請入學但是委員所關心的我們怎麼去對新住民特別規劃的這些即將進入高等教育接受"},{"start":289.245,"end":303.732,"text":"這一個人才的培育也為產業能夠厚植實力我想這個部分我會後我再來更進一步的來了解整個我們在跟委員是不是在跟委員提出一個說明"},{"start":304.894,"end":324.552,"text":"來 部長剛剛您給我的回答我發現您有一點搞混了我剛剛根本就沒有提到新住民二代它是針對新住民新住民二代當然就是在台灣出生長大在台灣受教育當然比照國人我現在所講的這個政策是針對新住民本身"},{"start":326.001,"end":345.072,"text":"OK,我們再來看一下,這個真的是部長要跟你們部內相關的單位好好地來做探討,因為連部長都搞不清楚新住民就讀大學辦法的對象到底是誰。他的招生對象就是新住民,跟新住民二代一點關係都沒有。"},{"start":347.353,"end":376.457,"text":"因为新住民有很多都是在国外受教育那可能因为他的母国的教育体系可能没有办法衔接到台湾所以台湾那时候想说要友善新住民让他们能够顺利进入到高等教育所以呢还会在原有名额和原核定的名额外加2%的方式让他们能够考取这些四千多个这个名额的这个科系问题是我们是要检讨就是说为什么"},{"start":377.077,"end":406.717,"text":"执行了我们推行了这么多年一点成效都没有新住民为什么我们这个美意会变成一个幽灵政策新住民为什么没有来报考我们有没有去检讨过是因为宣导不足吗说实在本席过去曾经在全国各地开过这个座谈会曾经就有这个问题你们晓不晓得现在我们已经修了这个大学法新住民可以外加2%的方式呢去报考大学其实很多人是不知道的"},{"start":407.037,"end":433.68,"text":"所以表示說宣導是不足的是委員我是請教委員委員在新住民的團體當中是相當了解他們的需求的那您提出的這個問題開出的名額那麼多報考的人數卻這麼少那是不是我們在公告上面有所不足或是在所以要檢討啦所以我現在就是來問說到底是怎麼回事嗎或是我們透過新住民的團體的工作還要做加強讓他能夠告訴更多的新住民"},{"start":434.02,"end":461.645,"text":"有这样的一个外加百分之二的名额可以供他们来这里读书读大学是不是这个过程很够所以我就在想说这是政府的美意为什么在居然没有落实好像说我订立这个了我就是友善新住民实际上很多新住民根本就不知道说原来我可以用这种方式进入到高等教育这我想想说这个部分就是教育部要去检讨的嘛你总不能空有政策那实际上一点效果都没有"},{"start":462.065,"end":484.49,"text":"所以要去檢討到底發生了什麼事情我想跟委員報告這真的委員今天的數據確實我想我們教育部內部來檢討那整個會後我也會來親自來跟委員來請教看我們到底在教育部在整個政策如何來落實因為良華免疫結果人數沒有出來部長你看到這個數據"},{"start":485.35,"end":502.99,"text":"很多都是從頭到尾都是掛零的難道您看到這個不會覺得很汗顏嗎為什麼會一個政策推行到這樣子居然是幾乎我們可以說是打零分而且也不是剛開始剛開始我還想說好我讓你們去我一定會深切內部來做檢討也跟委員多情義"},{"start":503.55,"end":525.272,"text":"是的这个部分其实三年前推行的时候本期就已经在盯着这个部分三年后再检讨还是一点成效都没有所以教育部一定要检讨那再来还有一点我们看到这名称新住民就读大学办法难道所有的新住民都有纳入这个招生的对象吗部长我想你这部分你可能不是很了解"},{"start":528.801,"end":551.261,"text":"我們先來看,這個新住民就讀大學辦法,其實並不是所有的新住民都適用,為什麼呢?按照新住民就讀大學辦法第二條,它裡面有提到,它指的是依國籍法第四條第一項第一款到第三款的規定,"},{"start":552.442,"end":574.33,"text":"可能部長要回去看一下補給法這個法條裡面的規定是什麼然後申請規劃的新住民一到這個法規申請規劃的新住民才能夠申請這個方案才符合這個招生的資格其實簡單的講他這個方案的招生對象只有婚姻移民只有婚姻移民"},{"start":575.646,"end":592.464,"text":"我们也知道说现在新住民的第一我想院长应该很清楚新住民的第一已经扩大解释了已经扩大解释我们入籍的入籍台湾的这个新住民其实有非常多元的管道不是只有婚姻移民"},{"start":594.012,"end":612.957,"text":"你知道嗎 一般的移工未來很可能也成為新住民我們現在確實希望有更多的外籍專業人力能夠留在台灣所以國化會確實也有許多的相對配合的措施"},{"start":615.518,"end":643.635,"text":"來我們來看一下像一般的這個移工一般的這個移工他如果利用流採久用方案我想這個部長應該很清楚在台工作滿6年以上並符合一定資金之或技術條件者其實6年之後他可以升級為中階技術人力那他在中階技術人力這當中的居留期間全部可以列入合法居留期間之計算那他"},{"start":645.635,"end":664.54,"text":"這個他拜了五年之後你看合法居留五年之後其實他是可以申請規劃申請永居的耶所以那申請規劃之後他取得永居然後申請規劃之後他其實就是台灣的新住民好那我們現在回到來看這個新住民的這個入學辦法"},{"start":664.98,"end":681.397,"text":"他只针对婚姻移民当以后这些移工他规划之后我觉得我想要申请台湾的高等教育他是排除在这个方案之外的因为你们这个方案里面只针对婚姻移民"},{"start":681.977,"end":705.959,"text":"我們剛才講說實在有很多政策必須是要隨時都要再做檢視隨時要做滾動式的修正我想我們會來前面來檢視哪些的法規對我們各式各樣的一些新住民他在接受高等教育他是不利的等於說法令怎麼樣去以實際性來鬆綁所以你法條裡面也要改啊"},{"start":706.579,"end":734.891,"text":"那是因為你裡面的辦法裡面就規定只有婚姻移民才可以嘛所以這個要修嘛那再來我們還有規定這個招訓的對象是規劃之後的新住民那取得永居可不可以是不是說經過了這麼多年我們應該要做通盤的檢討這個政策其實失靈了我們納入的這個對象是不是要來做擴大因為現在所謂的新住民入籍已經過是多元的管道"},{"start":735.211,"end":758.687,"text":"不是只有單一的婚姻移民所以我現在想說這部分應該要拿出來做檢討那我希望說經過今天的這個總質詢之後我希望教育部來全面的來檢討所謂的新住民就讀大學辦法到底出了什麼問題我們是不是要把對象呢來擴大那不是只有規劃的婚姻移民"},{"start":759.728,"end":788.739,"text":"像永居這部分可不可以納入新住民的定義其實已經擴大解釋絕對不是只有婚姻移民我想這部分教育部應該要來做檢視應該要來做檢討這一題我講到這裡另外我要提到的就是有關於我國的多元海外攬財計劃為了推動多元海外攬財計劃所以我們有透過三家市產學合作專班"},{"start":789.079,"end":808.862,"text":"还有新南向专班来招来海外的这个桥外生到台湾来就学那当然我们最希望的就是说他们学成之后能够留台就业充实台湾的这个人才的资源可是我们都知道不管是3加4或者是新南向专班其实都有许多需要检讨的地方"},{"start":809.442,"end":829.172,"text":"本席因為時間的關係所以我想針對華語文加強跟實習的內容跟院長跟部長做一個探討尤其是這個我們首先來講這個語言的部分我們都知道說這些橋外生長期都是在國外讀書也許華語文的程度真的是"},{"start":830.413,"end":846.69,"text":"不到一定的这个就是水准所以可是我们现在是说你只要有鉴定为华语文鉴定为A1或A2就可以来谈就读可是A1跟A2的程度其实只具备日常的基本沟通能力你要到学校去"},{"start":847.77,"end":868.659,"text":"去聽一些專業的名詞或是專業的用語真的這些孩子是沒有辦法消化的所以我們希望就是說教育部能夠在這些孩子來的第一年一定要要求大專院校必須在課程上面加強華語文的課程我不曉得部長這個部分有沒有去"},{"start":870.22,"end":885.299,"text":"我這個去年520進來後也確實看到我們產息專班存在有許多這些橋外生進來他華語文他是能力不夠的所以在上課包括工廠的一個實習他都沒有辦法去做有效的學習"},{"start":886.38,"end":907.286,"text":"所以我們現在事實上從這個進來要怎麼樣增強華語文各校在技高的一部分普高的一個部分到他要升到這個計算校園必須要至少要B1的這樣的一個程度從在台灣我們這個部分我們一定會來加強對這部分要加強不然孩子在課堂上根本聽不懂老師在講什麼我進來以後再"},{"start":909.587,"end":930.747,"text":"這個等於說這下半年裡邊我們開始建立了一個跟僑委會建立一個機制也就是說僑委會在積極為產業這個尋求可能的產業未來的潛在人才來到台灣就讀的同時我們希望僑委會所找的這些年輕的學子應該跟教育部我們建立了一個"},{"start":933.801,"end":957.477,"text":"兩個跨國會合作平台我們逐一的解釋這些學生到你去學校他是做corrider能夠真正培養文采能夠為產業所用而不是只是來這邊然後去做編校員的工作這個部分我們有許多的包含定期的這樣一個抽選我想這個部分在未來我們"},{"start":963.326,"end":969.135,"text":"因為他接受了一個好教育泰國人留在台灣以後才越來越多"},{"start":999.858,"end":1000.819,"text":"好谢谢罗美"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（16時18分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長及教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、教育部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：院長好。首先本席要就新住民大學入學方案成效不佳的問題跟院長及部長做一個探討，為了鼓勵新住民持續進入高等教育，我們在108年11月的時候修訂了大學法第二十五條第一項，然後在109年12月的時候訂定了新住民就讀大學辦法，以不占核定名額外加2%的方式鼓勵歸化後的新住民報考大學。立法的目的非常善意，是希望新住民可以順利銜接臺灣的高等教育，可是這個制度上路之後，報考的新住民人數真的非常非常低。本席曾經在111年的時候跟教育部探討過報考人數低的這個問題，當時教育部的回應是制度剛上路，也許因為宣導不足，所以要給教育部一點時間。當時本席就曾經建議教育部務必要跟移民署合作，讓政策宣導可以下放到基層。可是我們現在來看，三年過去了，到底成效如何？在新住民就讀大學辦法實施之後，我們可以先看111年，111年全國有71所大專院校不管是副學士班、學士班或是碩士班、博士班，其實都有開出名額，那時候全國的招生名額總計是4,135位，可是我們看報考的人數有多少？總計只有33位。我們開出了四千多個名額，可是報考的人數只有33位，錄取的人數只有11位，而且有些地方報名的人數甚至一直以來都是掛零的。","本席曾經在111年跟教育部探討的時候，教育部說給他們一點時間，相信因為制度剛上路宣導不足，所以造成報名的人數如此低落，111年整體的報名人數不到0.8%，連1%都不到。如果按照教育部當初的講法，照理來講實施至今已經過三年，該宣導的也都宣導了，那有沒有成效呢？我們來看有沒有成效，112年、113年、114年檢視下來，我們發現報考人數越來越慘，完全沒有一點進步，完全沒有一點改善。","我不曉得這個政策推行這麼多年以來，教育部有沒有做過通盤檢討？當初的美意真的是非常的好，我們都非常的感謝，讓新住民可以順利的銜接臺灣的高等教育，可是沒有想到現在出來的數據是如此的淒慘。而且三年下來，我們發現現在報名的人數，我們看114年，根本不到0.3%。所以我想請教部長，我們到底有沒有做過通盤的檢討，還是本席還沒有詢問之前，這個好像也不是教育部的施政重點所在？我不曉得為什麼當初的美意會淪為幽靈政策，請問失靈的原因有檢討過嗎？請問部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心新住民，特別他們都已經歸化我國國籍，他們高等教育的受教權，其實從我們過去的研究發現，從過去的data看到，事實上許多新住民小朋友的課業並不亞於我們……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，我講的不是小朋友，是新住民喔。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我說這些新住民的小朋友後來一路讀小學、國中、高中到大學，他們的成績其實不遑多讓，所以我們現在當然有開了一個申請入學，但是委員所關心的、我們怎麼樣去為新住民特別規劃的這些即將進入高等教育接受人才的培育，也為產業能夠厚植實力，我想這一個部分，會後我再更進一步的來了解整個狀況，我們再跟委員提出一個說明。"],["羅委員美玲：來，部長剛剛給我的回答，我發現你有一點搞混了。我剛剛根本就沒有提到新住民二代，它是針對新住民，新住民二代當然就是在臺灣出生、長大，在臺灣受教育，當然比照國人，我現在所講的這個政策是針對新住民本身。OK，來，我們再來看一下好了，這個真的部長要跟你們部內相關的單位好好探討，因為連部長都搞不清楚。這個新住民就讀大學辦法的對象到底是誰？它的招生對象就是新住民，跟新住民二代一點關係都沒有。新住民有很多都是在國外受教育，可能因為他母國的教育體系跟臺灣的體制沒有辦法銜接，所以臺灣那時候想說要友善新住民，讓他們能夠順利進入高等教育，所以用原核定名額外加2%的方式，讓他們能夠考取這四千多個名額的科系。","我們現在檢討的問題是，為什麼我們推行了這麼多年，一點成效都沒有？為什麼我們對新住民的美意會變成一個幽靈政策，新住民為什麼沒有來報考？我們有沒有去檢討過？是因為宣導不足嗎？說實在，本席過去曾經在全國各地開過座談會，曾經就這個問題詢問新住民，曉不曉得現在我們已經修了大學法，新住民可以外加2%的方式去報考大學？其實很多人是不知道的，所以表示宣導是不足的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員，我請教委員，委員在新住民的團體當中是相當了解他們的需求，那您提出了這個問題，開出的名額那麼多，報考的人數卻這麼少，是不是我們在公告上面有所不足，或是在……"],["羅委員美玲：所以要檢討啊！我現在就是來問到底是怎麼回事嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：或是我們透過新住民的團體工作還要做加強，讓他能夠告訴更多新住民有這樣外加2%的名額，可以供他們來這裡讀書、讀大學，是不是這個過程還不夠？"],["羅委員美玲：是啊！所以我在想說這是政府的美意，為什麼居然沒有落實？好像我訂定這個規定了，我就是友善新住民，實際上很多新住民根本就不知道，原來他可以用這種方式進入高等教育，所以我想這個部分就是教育部要去檢討的，你總不能空有政策，實際上一點效果都沒有，所以要去檢討到底發生了什麼事情，當然之前……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，關於委員今天的數據，我想我們教育部內部要來檢討，會後我也會親自跟委員請教，看我們教育部在整個政策如何來落實，因為這是良法美意，結果人數沒有出來，我想我們真的要認真的……"],["羅委員美玲：是啊！部長，你看到這個數據，很多從頭到尾都是掛零的，難道您看到這個不會覺得很汗顏嗎？為什麼一個政策會推行到這樣子，幾乎可以說是打零分啦，而且也不是剛開始，如果是剛開始，我還想說好，我讓你們去……"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員提醒，我們內部一定會深切來做檢討，也跟委員多請益。"],["羅委員美玲：是的，其實三年前推行的時候，本席就已經在盯著這個部分，三年後再檢討，還是一點成效都沒有，所以教育部一定要檢討。","再來還有一點，我們看到這個名稱是「新住民就讀大學辦法」，難道所有的新住民都有納入這個招生的對象嗎？部長，我想這部分你可能不是很了解。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。我們先來看，雖然這個名稱是「新住民就讀大學辦法」，其實並不是所有的新住民都適用，為什麼呢？按照新住民就讀大學辦法第二條，這裡面有提到，它指的是依國籍法第四條第一項第一款到第三款的規定，可能部長要回去看一下國籍法這個法條裡面的規定是什麼，然後依照這個法規，申請歸化的新住民才能夠申請這個方案、才符合這個招生的資格。其實簡單的講，這個方案的招生對象只有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謝謝主席我先請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢我也先請我們的教育部長麻煩再請教育部長備詢黃委員好院長好和我們政部長好委員好院長可能因為今天"},{"start":32.639,"end":59.474,"text":"我們的教文的質詢除了我們麥玉珍委員因為他今天在立法院有一個新住民的座談因為他來自於全國的新住民的代表但是我看到我們執政黨的委員今天竟然有高達六位委員都提出書面質詢我不曉得是認為我們的教文的質詢不重要還是在體恤院長的心不會跟委員報告"},{"start":60.094,"end":82.975,"text":"在這裡的總諮詢無論是口頭跟書面行政院一樣的重視一樣重視我們的這個教育文化的委員們也許在委員會當中跟部長都清楚的了解那今天他即使提出書面諮詢我們也會詳細的來答但是這麼多位的委員提出書面確實是在立法院比較少見好那院長先請教院長最近在"},{"start":84.056,"end":102.416,"text":"国内热议的一个议题就是诈骗最近一个跨国的太子集团因为它整个的洗钱高达好几百亿而在台湾被台湾确定它的不法所得就高达45亿元之多"},{"start":103.617,"end":130.164,"text":"在上個星期他們這些涉案人陸續有人被羈押有人被交保其中有一個這樣的畫面就是有一位特助在被交保了之後這樣的開懷的燦笑而引起台灣國內輿論的嘩然認為一個這樣的跨國的詐騙集團而且他的光是在台灣不罰所得就已經超過45億元"},{"start":132.105,"end":140.531,"text":"但是交保竟然少少的15萬元所以院長你看到這樣的畫面這樣的一個新聞你震怒嗎我一直對於這樣的結果我認為是對我們第一線的檢調人員世紀極大的打擊"},{"start":148.82,"end":170.633,"text":"很不容易發現一個詐團把他的首腦或是相關的人員把他抓到了逮捕到了結果法院輕輕的幾萬塊錢交保這個不僅是國人的觀感不好對這些執法人員士氣是極大的打擊我認為詐騙的方式我們要有效的防詐行政司法要同步來執行"},{"start":171.605,"end":191.02,"text":"所以连院长都看不下去所以我在这边要特别讲一下因为前阵子我们关心的比如说川普到亚洲访问在东协他们开会的时候就是韩国的总统李在明"},{"start":191.781,"end":215.135,"text":"他針對南韓大學生在柬埔寨被虐死那麼他震怒而且他直接跟國際犯罪組織宣戰他說如果這些國際犯罪組織膽敢碰韓國人或將其捲入犯罪我們要讓他知道結局只有家破人亡"},{"start":216.335,"end":236.468,"text":"這是李在明對國際犯罪組織的一個宣戰那麼就是因為他震怒然後在這個十月份在東南亞舉行東協會議的時候呢李在明就跟柬埔寨的這個領導人見面非常快速的"},{"start":237.128,"end":252.863,"text":"在柬埔寨所有韓國涉案的這些詐騙的這些歹徒全部送到韓國去接受司法制裁可是呢我們必須說前陣子我們也是討論到"},{"start":254.665,"end":272.158,"text":"台灣到現在還是很多人被騙到柬埔寨結果我們只能在機場裡面去舉標語說要小心詐騙所以我要講的是我非常肯定剛才院長這樣的答覆雖然這個是司法院肯定說這是司法獨立"},{"start":272.958,"end":300.379,"text":"但是司法不能夠自外於我們整個的社會觀感司法不能自外於我們打擊詐騙打擊犯罪的一個決心對不對所以在這邊我利用今天的這個總諮詢我覺得還是要提醒院長和行政單位院長其實我今天為什麼特別選擇教文呢我剛才說其實我們最近教育出了很大的問題"},{"start":301.826,"end":312.545,"text":"最近討論最多的就是我們的教師荒到今年這個學期其實很多學校在開學之後還在徵老師"},{"start":313.74,"end":335.946,"text":"有很多學校開學了好幾個月還在缺老師那有很多的學校因為老師極度的缺乏所以呢很多老師事實上呢他是超時在工作所以我必須講現在全台的教師荒已經成為了我們的新國安問題我們這幾年來護理人員缺"},{"start":343.063,"end":358.453,"text":"軍警缺軍警消缺然後現在教師缺所以這是社會這個國家最中間的力量這樣大量的缺乏人才這是我們必須去正視的"},{"start":359.554,"end":376.601,"text":"所以我在這邊請教我們的部長我剛剛有提到很多學校到了10月份還在徵老師那也有學校說他們真的44次還是招不到老師所以我在這邊直接的"},{"start":377.907,"end":404.115,"text":"像就教育院長和部長我們現在其實教育第一線之所以這樣人才極度的缺乏有很多很多的原因但是我在這邊特別提到這個事實上在我們的教文的部門的質詢的時候我也有看到比如說像葛如軍委員他曾經就去整理我們教師的終點費"},{"start":406.096,"end":430.969,"text":"國小教師終點費還有國中教師及高中教師終點費他去統計從美國是79年一直到現在35年35年這個物價都不知道飛漲到什麼程度了一碗滷肉飯都不曉得已經漲成什麼樣子了對不對可是部長院長你知道嗎我們國小教師的終點費35年調升"},{"start":434.651,"end":452.663,"text":"是76块35年调了76块以现在来讲一个便当都买不到我们高中教师的终点费还有国中教师终点费35年调生只有18块到20块"},{"start":454.448,"end":483.587,"text":"我們葛珠區委員說這搞不好一支比較好的原子筆都買不到現在連泡麵都買不到所以長期以來我們第一線的教師用他們的使命用他們的熱情但是呢因為現在沒有什麼尊師重道的精神再加上他們第一線其實壓力非常大我在這邊就要特別為第一線的教師們請命這個也是大家討論很多的剛才我講的終點"},{"start":485.329,"end":513.991,"text":"还有就是导师费大家都知道你要担任导师的话你到了晚上都还要跟家长的群组LINE大家东问西问你不可能就这样轻轻松松的就下班了所以导师事实上他肩负非常大的一个行政的责任跟一个教育的责任好那我们国中小导师也动长了13年国中小导师的"},{"start":515.271,"end":537.243,"text":"的這個導師費就是植物家籍導師費也動漲長達13年之久13年之久那所以其實也有很多的教師團體說應該把現在動漲的導師費也應該予以提高不然的話我剛才講了35年漲什麼漲20塊18塊泡麵都買不成然後"},{"start":542.765,"end":570.302,"text":"13年來導師費從來都沒有調漲過那這個其實在我知道在教育部門質詢的時候都有很多委員問到部長部長也承諾說要提出方案所以部長此時此刻可不可以給我們一個很明確的讓我們第一線現在的不管是終點費也好或者是這個導師費也好可以予以調整"},{"start":571.618,"end":601.138,"text":"跟我們報告確實院長也有這個指示我們怎麼樣去給中小學老師有一個更好的一個待遇讓他們能夠更安定的能夠來從事教室指導我們的新世代的這些學生我想我們也內部也確實積極在研議但是因為許多的這些國民教育的許多經費上的一些資用那也涉及到地方22個地方縣市院長也特別指示"},{"start":602.319,"end":619.894,"text":"國教署一定要先跟地方22個地方縣市政府能夠先大家先討論那我們到時候會有一個具體的一個方案什麼時候呢因為我看你在教文委員會就已經講說一個月內要提出一個月已經到了"},{"start":620.748,"end":628.395,"text":"沒有我們當時大概就是說我們希望配合校事會議的時候大概在12月底之前那當然所以會不會調來來我請我請教院長院間總質詢院長"},{"start":634.366,"end":652.129,"text":"第一線教師的我剛講包含長期都沒有調整的終點費和導師費是不是應該要調整是跟委員報告部長在日前上個禮拜上一個禮拜兩個禮拜已經來說明過而且在質詢過程過程當中我也接受到這樣的訊息"},{"start":653.67,"end":677.42,"text":"對長期教師的待遇應該要更合理化但是我們考慮到國中小他應該屬於地方自治事項如果現在的調整未來這個人事費的支應是中央或地方或中央地方如何來協調這個部分一定要跟地方談到地方也願意那我們才能再訂一個方式否則又會變成說中央請客地方買單"},{"start":679.26,"end":698.648,"text":"所以你的標準要一致喔可是你們每次軍公教調薪你們也就是直接宣布啊對不對軍公教調薪本來就也有地方的那個支出啊所以呢所以我在這邊我就是要院長一句話就是我剛剛說我們現在啊我們面對新的國安問題護理人員我們那時候護理人員應該要加薪啊真的應該要加薪"},{"start":705.771,"end":714.551,"text":"我們現在這麼多這麼重要的這些領域的人才都在都在喊沒有人這是很可怕的事情教育"},{"start":716.378,"end":742.129,"text":"這百年大計我們不能讓教育界變成教育成為一個好像是黃昏產業這不可以這樣子絕對不能變成但是現在就是這樣啊考上教師證也不願意來當教師啊我們已經重視了解我們並不是黃昏產業我們大部分的中小學老師還是謹守崗位跟外包委員也非常清楚"},{"start":742.629,"end":768.04,"text":"我們任何一項最近這三年來的國際評比我們沒有一項是落於五名之後所以這是我們第一線的教師非常非常的認真努力因為我時間有限謝謝部長就是一定要努力好 時間請暫停一下鄭部長請回我請一下我們文化部李部長麻煩請文化部長備選"},{"start":784.541,"end":803.719,"text":"時間繼續最近監察院針對台灣plus指出了一些缺失而台灣plus從110年到現在已經花掉58億未來還要花40億也就是說我們在台灣plus要砸下百億元但是呢"},{"start":804.6,"end":823.221,"text":"台灣Plus的爭議不斷不管是說我講的監察院提出這些它有很多的缺失然後包含過去還有英籍的高階編輯離台說我們質疑政治干預了台灣Plus的一個編輯"},{"start":824.562,"end":839.439,"text":"好更不要說之前這個報導說川普是重刑犯最近還有一個很離譜的事情就是呢有一個12強的紀錄片我們都知道聽拍1這個紀錄片啊院長你也不知道"},{"start":840.768,"end":856.838,"text":"上線三天就消失了已經消失一個月我們也去問沒有給我們理由沒有給我們理由為什麼消失我認為應該是版權出包了像這種缺失出來好像都靜悄悄的"},{"start":858.499,"end":874.685,"text":"假裝沒有發生這些事情所以我在這邊具體的來提出Town Plus已經到了應該去檢討它是不是繼續應該存在你看它花這麼多錢以前花這麼多錢"},{"start":876.993,"end":898.506,"text":"從110年到117年要花將近100億在台灣plus我們有看到他的成效嗎剛才院長我們講到我們很多第一線需要幫他加薪護理人員要加薪軍警應該要加薪然後教師應該加薪都說沒有錢結果我們花在錢花在這些上面"},{"start":899.326,"end":923.367,"text":"完全錢沒有花在刀口上所以10plus明年的預算我們會嚴格的監督連監察院都提出它的成效有問題然後還要不要花這麼多錢我們是不是應該把我們有限的資源移到應該去第一線該加薪的就去加薪院長你是不是覺得這種錢花的我真的不曉得"},{"start":924.088,"end":945.714,"text":"看不出任何成效啊文化部能夠對於台灣plus的編輯台以及所有的記者能夠在座通盤的了解他真正要plus台灣的一個功能他的存在才有他的價值對沒有錯如果按照現在我們也可以去比啊比如像韓國阿里郎如果你先去比較我們的點閱率我們的數量好"},{"start":955.527,"end":956.337,"text":"好 謝謝王虹"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（16時1分）謝謝主席，我先請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也先請教育部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請教育部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長好、鄭部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，今天我們教文的質詢，除了麥玉珍委員因為今天在立法院有一個新住民的座談，有來自於全國的新住民的代表，我看到執政黨委員今天竟然有高達6位委員都提出書面質詢，我不曉得是認為我們的教文質詢不重要，還是在體恤院長的心？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，在這裡的總質詢，無論是口頭跟書面，行政院一樣的重視，我們教育文化的委員們，也許在委員會當中，跟部長都清楚了解，今天他即使提出書面質詢，我們也會詳細答復。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是這麼多位委員提出書面質詢，確實是在立法院比較少見。","先請教院長，最近在國內熱議的一個議題就是詐騙，最近一個跨國的太子集團，它整個洗錢高達好幾百億，而在臺灣，被臺灣確定它的不法所得就高達45億元之多，在上個星期這些涉案人陸續有人被羈押、有人被交保，其中有一個畫面就是有一位特助在被交保了之後開懷燦笑，引起臺灣國內輿論的譁然，認為一個跨國的詐騙集團，在臺灣光是不法所得就已經超過45億元，但是交保竟然才少少15萬元。院長，你看到這樣的畫面、這樣的新聞，你震怒嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於這樣的結果，我一直認為是對我們第一線檢調人員士氣極大的打擊，很不容易發現一個詐團，把他的首腦或是相關人員抓到了、逮捕到了，結果法院輕輕以幾萬塊錢讓他交保，這個不僅國人觀感不好，對這些執法人員的士氣也是極大的打擊。我認為詐騙的方式，我們要有效的防詐，行政、司法要同步執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯，連院長都看不下去，所以我在這邊要特別講一下，因為前陣子我們關心的，比如川普到亞洲訪問，他們在東協開會的時候，韓國總統李在明針對南韓大學生在柬埔寨被虐死而震怒，直接向國際犯罪組織宣戰！他說：如果這些國際犯罪組織膽敢碰韓國人或將其捲入犯罪，我們要讓他知道結局只有家破人亡。這是李在明對國際犯罪組織的宣戰！就是因為他的震怒，於是10月份在東南亞舉行東協會議時，李在明跟柬埔寨領導人見面，之後非常快速的，柬埔寨裡所有韓國涉案的詐騙歹徒全部送到韓國接受司法制裁！可是我必須說，前陣子我們也有討論到，臺灣現在還是很多人被騙到柬埔寨，結果我們只能在機場裡舉標語說要小心詐騙。我要講的是，我非常肯定剛才院長這樣的答復，雖然這是司法院業務，涉及司法獨立，但司法不能自外於整個社會的觀感，司法不能自外於打擊詐騙、打擊犯罪的決心，對不對？所以我在這邊要利用今天總質詢的機會提醒院長和行政單位。","院長，為什麼我今天特別選擇教文組質詢？我剛才說過，其實最近教育出了很大的問題！最近討論最多的就是教師荒！今年的這個學期開學後，很多學校還在徵老師；很多學校開學了好幾個月還在缺老師；甚至有很多學校因為老師極度缺乏，以致很多老師超時工作。所以我必須講，現在全臺的教師荒已經成為新的國安問題！","這幾年來護理人員缺，軍警消缺，現在教師缺，這些人是這個社會、是這個國家最中間的力量，這樣大量的缺乏人才，是我們必須去正視的。我在這邊請教部長，我剛剛提到，很多學校到了10月份還在徵老師；也有學校說徵了44次，還是招不到老師！我在這邊就教於院長和部長，其實教育第一線之所以會如此極度缺乏人才，原因有很多很多，不過我要特別提到一點，這點在質詢教文部會時我也有看到，比如葛如鈞委員曾經整理了教師的鐘點費，包括國小教師鐘點費，國中教師及高中教師的鐘點費。他做了統計後發現，從民國79年一直到現在，35年了，這35年來物價都不知道飛漲到什麼程度了！一碗滷肉飯都不曉得已經漲成什麼樣子了，對不對？可是部長、院長，35年來，國小教師的鐘點費只調升了76塊，35年調了76塊，以現在來講，連一個便當都買不到！至於高中教師還有國中教師的鐘點費，35年來只從18塊調升到20塊，葛如鈞委員說搞不好連一支比較好的原子筆都買不到，事實上現在連泡麵都買不到！長期以來第一線教師用他們的使命感，用他們的熱情在工作，但因為現在沒有什麼尊師重道的精神，再加上他們在第一線的壓力其實非常大。所以我在這邊要特別為第一線的教師們請命，這也是大家討論很多的。除了剛才我講的鐘點費外，還有就是導師費，大家都知道擔任導師到了晚上還要跟家長群組LINE，大家東問西問，你不可能這樣輕輕鬆鬆的就下班了，導師事實上肩負非常大的行政責任跟教育責任。而我們國中小導師費這個職務加給也凍漲了長達13年之久，其實也有很多教師團體說，應該把現在凍漲的導師費予以提高，不然的話，像我剛才講的，鐘點費35年漲20塊、18塊，連泡麵都買不到，然後13年來導師費從來都沒有調漲過。我知道這個問題在教文委員會質詢的時候有很多委員詢問過部長，部長也承諾要提出方案。部長，此時此刻可不可以給我們一個很明確的答案，讓我們第一線教師的鐘點費也好，或者導師費也好可以予以調整？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實，院長也有指示我們怎麼樣給中小學老師一個更好的待遇，讓他們能夠更安定的來從事教職，指導我們新世代的這些學生，我想我們內部也確實積極在研議，但是因為許多國民教育經費上的一些支用涉及到地方22個縣市，院長也特別指示國教署一定要先跟22個地方縣市政府先討論，我們到時候會有一個具體的方案。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候呢？因為我看到你在教文委員說一個月內要提出，一個月已經到啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我們當時大概是說希望配合校事會議，大概在12月底之前，當然，我們也……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以會不會調？我請教院長，因為今天是總質詢。院長，我剛剛有講了，第一線教師長期都沒有調整的鐘點費和導師費是不是應該要調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，部長在日前，在上一個禮拜還是上兩個禮拜已經來說明過，而且在質詢的過程當中我也接收到這樣的訊息，長期教師的待遇應該要更合理化，但是我們考慮到國中小應該屬於地方自治事項，如果現在的調整，未來這個人事費的支應是中央或地方或中央地方如何來協調，這個部分一定要跟地方談到地方也願意，我們才能來訂一個方式，否則又會變成中央請客、地方買單，所以我們必須跟地方先談。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，所以你的標準要一致喔，可是你們每次軍公教調薪也就是直接宣布啊，對不對？軍公教調薪本來就也有地方的支出……"],["卓院長榮泰：那個行之多年，我們也是用補助的方式。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊就是要院長一句話，我剛剛說的，我們現在面對新的國安問題，包括護理人員，我們那時候說護理人員應該要加薪，真的應該要加薪，我們現在這麼多、這麼重要領域的人才都在喊沒有人，這是很可怕的事情。教育是百年大計，我們不能讓教育界變成好像是黃昏產業，不可以這樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能、不可能，教育絕對……"],["王委員鴻薇：絕對不能變成……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不能讓它成為黃昏產業。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是現在就是這樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會！我們已經重視這個問題了。"],["王委員鴻薇：考上教師證的也不願意來當教師啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經重視、瞭解……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們並不是黃昏產業，我們大部分的中小學老師還是緊守崗位。委員也非常清楚，我們任何一項，最近這三年來的國際評比，我們沒有一項是落於五名之後，也就是說，我們在中小學……"],["王委員鴻薇：這是因為我們第一線的教師非常非常的認真、努力……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我也利用這個機會跟委員報告，我非常心存感激……"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起！因為我時間有限，謝謝部長，就是一定要努力。","時間請暫停一下，鄭部長請回，我請文化部李部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部長備詢。好，時間繼續。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，最近監察院針對TaiwanPlus指出了一些缺失，TaiwanPlus從110年到現在已經花掉58億，未來還要花40億，也就是說，我們在TaiwanPlus要砸下百億元，但是TaiwanPlus的爭議不斷，包含監察院提出它有很多的缺失，包含過去有英籍高階編輯離臺時質疑政治干預了TaiwanPlus的編輯，更不要說之前報導川普是重刑犯，最近還有一個很離譜的事情就是有一個12強的紀錄片「Team Taiwan」，這個紀錄片院長一定不知道，上線3天就消失了，已經消失1個月，我們也去問了，但沒有給我們理由，沒有告訴我們為什麼消失，我認為應該是版權出包了啦！像這種缺失出現後好像都靜悄悄的，假裝沒有發生這些事情，所以我在這邊具體的提出，TaiwanPlus已經到了應該要去檢討是不是繼續應該存在的時候，你看它花這麼多錢耶，以前花了這麼多錢，從110年到117年要花將近100億在TaiwanPlus上，但我們有看到它的成效嗎？","院長，剛才我講到我們很多第一線人員需要幫他們加薪，護理人員要加薪、軍警應該要加薪、教師應該要加薪，都說沒有錢，結果我們把錢花在這些上面，錢完全沒有花在刀口上，所以TaiwanPlus明年的預算我們會嚴格的監督，連監察院都提出它的成效有問題了，還要不要花這麼多錢？我們是不是應該把政府有限的資源移到第一線該加薪的就去加薪，院長，你是不是覺得這種錢花的……我真的不曉得，看不出任何成效啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望文化部能夠對於TaiwanPlus的編輯臺以及所有記者再做通盤的瞭解真正要Plus Taiwan的一個功能，這樣它的存在才有價值。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯，現在我們也可以去比較啦，比如像韓國阿里郎，如果今天去做比較，我們的點閱率、我們的數量，都真的差太多了！真的，當省則省，把錢用在刀口上，這是很重要的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第5位郭昱晴委員、第6位吳思瑤委員、第7位陳俊宇委員，三位委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院以書面委員答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員郭昱晴書面質詢：","案由：運動部升格後，臺灣體育發展迎來新機遇，但教育部與運動部在職掌上正式分流，使得「運動與教育」交界領域的制度性漏接風險倍增。無論是學生運動員的學業保障、訓練體系完整性、升學與退役銜接、基層師資與設施整合，或跨專業支援（如運動醫療、心理與運科），可能因兩部會協作而出現責任不清、資源重複或落差。為確保人才培育鏈的穩定與完整，建請行政院成立體育教育跨部會協調平台，專責統整跨域議題，並公開會議紀錄，以提升透明度、強化協作效率。","說明：","一、教育部主管學籍、課務與教師排課，運動部主管訓練、競技與選手培育，若兩者缺乏制度化協調，學生運動員在課表安排、課業補救、訓練時段與學分修習之間，極易出現衝突。兼顧學業與訓練的制度需要雙方共同設計，才能保障學生運動員的學習權益與未來選擇。","二、在基層設施、場館管理及適應體育推動上，教育部與運動部權責交織。校園體育館的開放規範、無障礙改善、適應體育課程與社區身障運動推廣，皆必須跨部整合，若未統合規劃，將可能出現資源重複投入、場館使用效率低、師資培訓不一致等問題。","三、運動醫療、運動心理與運科等跨專業支持體系分屬兩部會：教育部管理校護與心理輔導、運動部管理運科與競技支援，若缺乏明確分工與資訊共享，學生運動員在傷害處置、復健安排、心理支持或訓練科學化上容易遭遇銜接不順，形成照顧斷層，影響選手長期發展。","四、在升學與退役銜接方面，教育部主導入學制度與生涯輔導，運動部主導運動成績認證與選手培訓，兩者若未整合，可能造成選手升學評量標準不一致、運動成績無法有效反映在入學管道上，也使退役選手在轉型、第二專長培育與職涯規劃上缺乏明確支援。","五、教練培訓與體育師資培育兩套體系由不同部會管理，若不協調整合，可能出現教練制度與學校教師制度脫節、師資培訓重複、適應體育與身障教育培訓不一致等情況，導致基層人力不足、專業標準混亂。","六、學生運動員的學籍資料、訓練紀錄與競技成績如果由不同部會分開管理，缺乏系統整合。若資料無法互通，不僅政策分析失準，也使家長與學校難以掌握完整資訊，不利於學業、訓練、健康三者的整合管理。"],["委員吳思瑤書面質詢：","案由：本院吳委員思瑤，有鑒於文化為推動國家品牌與軟實力外交之核心，可視為國際外交之重要支柱，政府應研謀持續整合文化部與外交部資源，建立跨部會文化外交機制，積極拓展國際文化網絡，以強化台灣文化於全球之能見度與影響力，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、擴大文化據點與簽署文化協定，厚植國際文化網絡。","(一)本席於2018年10月9日以「設計跨界公眾外交，善用東京奧運契機，打造台灣國家品牌」為題質詢行政院，獲得時任院長賴清德允諾推動，將善用大型海外指標展會Mega Event平台，串聯各界資源共同打造台灣的國家品牌形象，以文化為核心的外交新模式。","(二)文化部與外交部已於2025年2月召開「雙部長會商」，將文化外交列為外交政策重點項目，擬共同推動文化外交，由外交部主責歐洲臺灣文化年，文化部主責日本大阪世博「We TAIWAN」等大型海外展會平台之文化展演活動。足可顯見目前文化外交推動仍以個案為主，亟需整體戰略規劃。","(三)根據外交部提供資料，我國駐外使領單位有113處，文化部駐外設組僅17處、佔15%，且集中亞太、歐洲、北美地區特定國家，恐患寡亦患不均，且我國現存之12個邦交國大使館更未派遣文化專業之人員進駐。","(四)經盤點我國與邦交國所簽署之文化協定，自1962年「中華民國與喀麥隆聯邦共和國文化協定」至1999年「中華民國政府與馬其頓共和國政府間文化合作協定」共計11個，僅1977年簽署「中華民國與瓜地馬拉共和國間文化協定」尚存，自此後未有與邦交國之文化協定簽署，且據悉我國與瓜地馬拉簽署「中華民國與瓜地馬拉共和國間文化協定」屆期後自動展延5年，協定迄仍持續有效，卻未將瓜地馬拉視為文化外交之重點區域，甚至其大使館更未派員，如同形同虛設，恐與該文化協定精神相悖離。","(五)近期由駐臺北以色列經濟文化辦事處代表與我國駐臺拉維夫代表所簽署之「臺以文化合作協定」，目前以色列亦未設立文化組並未派員，恐使不利推動相關文化交流，使其停留於象徵性文件層級，足顯見其組織編制有檢討空間，請行政院協調外交部、文化部針對簽署文化協定與各國派員情事積極檢討，並於兩個月內向本席提出書面報告回覆。","二、參與國際文化保存體系，進而鏈結聯合國教科文組織。","(一)本席於2023年2月24日、2024年9月20日分別質詢行政院，要求重啟申列世界文化遺產，並將加入聯合國教育、科學及文化組織（以下簡稱UNESCO）列為我國推動加入國際組織之重點單位，並分別獲得時任院長陳建仁、現任院長卓榮泰肯首，將會列為政策推動重點，後續已重啟臺灣世界遺產推動會，以及新設臺灣非物質文化遺產推動會。","(二)經查外交部參與國際組織官方網站，仍未將聯合國教育、科學及文化組織（UNESCO）列為重點參與組織，根據第一屆臺灣非物質文化遺產推動會之會議紀錄結論，擬請外交部協助文化部推動參與UNESCO相關外圍國際組織，並評估於國外設置文化展演據點，目前似無進度，請行政院督導外交部針對改善上述情事，並提供相關進度說明，於兩個月內向本席提出書面報告回覆。","三、落實強化跨部會協作機制，共促文化永續與外交推動。","(一)賴清德總統於競選期間宣示推動文化國家希望工程，提出兩大承諾，包括：一、每年度寬列文化預算，並持續提高；二、推動跨域文化治理，強化「行政院文化會報」機制，落實《文化基本法》。","(二)有鑒於文化輸出須仰賴穩定資金與持續人才培育，經查現行之《文化基本法》第24條，文化發展基金設置用途為辦理文化發展及公共媒體等相關事項。經查文化部業於2022年預告修正《文化基本法》第24條，擬明定文化發展基金財源，迄今尚未送請利法院審議，以致文化發展基金財源未趨穩定，為落實賴清德總統推動「文化永續世界臺灣」之精神，請行政院評估於設置用途之條文，增設文化外交之可行性，俾利推動文化館所合作、設置文化獎學金、參與大型海外指標展會Mega Event、擴大吸引海外文化人才等面向，並盡速送立法院審查。","(三)為落實賴清德總統推動跨域文化治理，強化「行政院文化會報」機制之願景，建請行政院應將「如何推動文化外交」列為跨域文化治理之重點項目，並於文化會報進行追蹤。綜上所述，請於兩個月內向本席提出書面報告回覆。"],["委員陳俊宇書面質詢：","壹、促進水域運動，打造國際場地","宜蘭推動水上運動已行之有年，安農溪素有「天然輕艇激流標桿場地」之美譽，為全國輕艇激流運動的重鎮。今年行政院政委到安農溪視察，提出將指示體育署（運動部）全力協助縣政府興建國家訓練中心計畫，以利做為培育輕艇選手的重要基地。宜蘭縣政府教育處亦表示，將積極爭取國家選手訓練中心：","一、運動部是否已收到縣府相關規劃的提報、並且已對選址方案進行專業評估與指導，並規劃完整的「場館─訓練中心─選手培育」方案，包括選手訓練基地、教練培育、後勤生活設施及對外開放等，以確保該場地不僅能舉辦國際性競技賽事，也能長期支援宜蘭縣及全國水上運動之發展。","二、根據「水域運動資源中心推動示範計畫」，若能促成安農溪場地與地方大專院校合作推展水域運動教育，將有助於深化學生參與並擴展在地青年投入水域運動的層面。宜蘭縣具備得天獨厚的水域環境條件，運動部是否已有具體規劃，協助在地大專院校與場館建立合作機制，共同推動相關課程體驗、訓練交流及安全教育？中央是否規劃提供師資培訓與設備資源，支持學校開展相關課程與活動，讓學生能實際參與並延續水域運動文化的發展？","三、縣府目前規劃對場地實行「使用者付費」機制，以減輕後續維護財政壓力，並已訂定管理要點，擬於年底研擬收費標準。作為中央主責單位，若地方未來的收費機制無法達成預期回收或維護功能，甚至形成地方財政負擔，運動部是否有配套機制，或提供補助以支應後續維護？","安農溪輕艇激流賽道的啟用，是宜蘭邁向國際的重要一步。中央與地方若能在後續營運管理、人才培育與永續發展上協力並進，方能讓這項重大投資真正成為推動地方運動產業與城市發展的關鍵動能，而非僅止於一次性的國際賽事成果。","貳、推廣全民運動，完善場館設施","宜蘭縣素以「多雨」聞名，全年平均降雨日逾200天，遭逢梅雨季、颱風、東北季風時降雨更加集中。如此天候條件，使得室外運動場地的使用大幅受限，不僅社區團體推廣運動、各級學校體育課程的推動備受考驗，對於宜蘭縣辦理國內外大型競技賽事、展演活動、供民眾觀賞娛樂表演之需求，皆面臨極大挑戰。地方對於建置能夠兼顧競技、訓練、全民運動、展演功能之室內綜合場館，表達殷切期盼。然而，興建如「小巨蛋」之場館設施，不但需龐大經費支持、對於後續營運亦須有長期且縝密之規劃：","一、宜蘭縣雖有部分學校之體育館，然硬體量能有限、難以符合使用需求。依「均衡台灣」的理念及推廣全民運動之政策，行政院及運動部對於宜蘭縣建置大型綜合運動場館，是否予以支持？","二、宜蘭縣近年倡導推行匹克球等新興運動，然礙於縣內無專屬該項目之場地，僅得依附於主流運動項目之場地使用，確實有建置合適場地設施之必要，縣府對此提出之需求，再請中央全力協助。請問運動部對於新興、社區運動之推動方向為何？對於全民運動設施的優化及建構、又如何落實？","參、發揚傳統戲曲，在地文化傳承","宜蘭被譽為「歌仔戲的故鄉」，是臺灣本土戲曲的發源地。歌仔戲源自宜蘭在地的「本地歌仔」，融合民間歌謠與車鼓小戲，逐漸發展出完整的表演體系，成為最具代表性的臺灣戲曲之一：","一、宜蘭為歌仔戲之起源地，現雖有傳藝中心及演藝廳等表演場地，惟目前可供觀眾欣賞表演的場地選擇仍然有限，整體宣傳亦略顯不足、藝文氛圍不夠熱絡。請文化部會同縣府，評估規劃更多適合歌仔戲展演的專屬空間，提升發源地的展演量能與觀眾體驗。","二、宜蘭縣政府最近已完成「歌仔戲文物普查與保存計畫」第二期，成功建立在地劇團文物保存現況之初步輪廓，並預計持續推動第三期及主題式研究，顯示地方在研究層面已具基礎。然而，歌仔戲文物的保存與活化，仍有賴中央持續支持與制度性投入。","請問文化部，是否已規劃將宜蘭縣歌仔戲文物普查第三期及後續研究納入文化資產保存的中長期計畫，並在經費、人力及專業輔導上提供穩定支持？同時，是否能考慮建立「戲服共享平台」，整合新興劇團、學校與文化機構資源，讓文物重回展演現場，成為文化再生的契機？","三、歌仔戲蘊含豐富的語言、音樂與表演教育價值，若能與學校教育結合，有助於青少年對在地傳統藝術的認同。教育部近年推動藝術教育扎根，但目前「歌仔戲進校園」多以短期活動為主，難以形成長效。","請問教育部是否規劃與文化部協作，將歌仔戲納入藝文課程，或與地方大學、職校合作開設相關學程，讓學生能實際參與戲曲表演與製作？中央是否也能提供師資培訓與教材資源，協助教師具備引導學生接觸地方戲曲的能力？","歌仔戲不僅是宜蘭的重要文化資產，更是臺灣傳統藝術的象徵。中央若能與地方建立常態協作機制，整合「劇團發展─教育傳承─文物保存─觀眾拓展」四大面向，將有助於形成完整的文化生態鏈，確保這項根植於臺灣土地的藝術能持續生生不息，並在地發光、向外發展。","肆、改善宜科環境，帶動產業升級","2004年，政府為打造北部高科技產業帶，選定「宜蘭科學園區」發展「數位創意」與「通訊知識服務」產業。2005年獲行政院核定籌設，規劃以精密機械、生物科技、綠能、通訊及光電元件材料系統等五大產業為主，並開放量產，以滿足產業用地與智慧應用需求。","而在地理區位上，經由國道五號北宜高速公路，宜蘭科學園區到大台北地區只要40分鐘，充份連結大台北生活圈。北有27公頃宜蘭運動公園，離市中心5分鐘路程，南接宜蘭縣政府以及宜蘭大學城南校區，滿足休閒、工作、運動與生活等多方面需求，配合完善的公共設施，鄰近學校及優質住宅區，充分提供安心工作環境。未來十年，高鐵將延伸至宜蘭，宜蘭新站即座落園區旁的縣政中心，建構快速便捷的公共交通路網。","惟經查，宜蘭科學園區總面積70.99公頃，扣除公共設施及綠帶整體可供出租土地面積31.96公頃，目前僅出租13.09公頃，尚有18.87公頃處於閒置空間：","一、中央政府為均衡台灣，將北北基宜規劃為「首都圈黃金廊帶」，盼將雙北產業優勢擴展至宜蘭，惟多年來宜蘭科學園區之產學研群聚效應遲未形成，園區招商之成效不如預期，主管機關應提出改善措施及目標，以推動產業群聚、提升產學研量能，促進廠商進駐宜蘭科學園區。","二、政府積極推動「五大信賴產業」、「AI新十大建設」，以確保台灣下一個世代的國際競爭優勢。宜蘭科學園區周邊即聚集多所大專院校，包括國立宜蘭大學已響應「AI島」之願景，與業界建立產學合作關係，積極推動東部地區的人工智慧AI技術發展，期望成為區域AI應用與研究之核心樞紐。請中央政府將宜蘭科學園區納入AI發展之重要據點，積極完善相關設施建置、規劃人才培育及攬才之政策，提供園區發展AI產業更友善之環境，以強化宜蘭科學園區之競爭優勢，進一步協助宜蘭縣產業經濟升級。","宜蘭科學園區的發展潛力絕不亞於其他地區，但若缺乏中央整體規劃與政策扶植，其發展將持續受限，連帶影響縣內整體經濟發展，遂要求行政院、國科會及相關部會務必正視此問題，提出具體改善之措施。"],["主席：接下來請羅美玲委員質詢，黃捷委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aae47bb5e3cb2971d285e1af54c489cd628df941f24691c63a12e6e1cd9bc11ee35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"15:45:55 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我想請一下周榮泰院長再請周院長備詢"},{"start":16.584,"end":39.754,"text":"政委員好院長好我延續剛剛呂玉玲委員她針對桃竹苗大矽谷的問題我也跟著問一下因為賴總統在2020年選舉的時候桃竹苗大矽谷是她很重要的一個產業政策的一環因為它涵蓋面非常的廣包括了空間的問題包括了教育的問題人才的問題產業的問題還包括了生活的問題等等"},{"start":41.655,"end":67.567,"text":"確實也在2024年9月就是主任長上來之後也正式的宣布上路了確實也很熱鬧也吸引了大家很多的關注那麼在1月20號的時候今年1月20號的時候中央跟地方政府也達成了一個共識決定要建立桃竹苗大細股計畫的一個溝通平台中央跨部會跟地方政府的院長知道這個事情嘛對不對"},{"start":68.917,"end":86.924,"text":"桃州苗大氣谷一直是我們六大區域產業生活區的領頭最先核定的部分所以說我們在1月20號的時候呢中央有決定跨部會跟地方成立一個溝通的一個平台可是10個月過去了到現在一次會都沒有開"},{"start":88.385,"end":108.708,"text":"那我这边比较疑惑的是我们大戏谷计划只是一个选举竞选的一个口号还是真的要如实如实的去下去推可不可以请院长口头回答当然不是我们在大戏谷桃树苗大戏谷的计划之后我们其他的六大区域产业生活区域的计划都依序的都核定了这个是未来"},{"start":109.629,"end":135.91,"text":"要襯托台灣基礎建設重要的一個生活指標那很好那我想說陶俊華大西湖計畫裡面他有四大策略包括深耕在地前瞻科技驅動產業創新然後強化深科技新創發展然後第三點在配合在地需求延攬與培育人才這跟教育部有關那麼優化園區建設構築科技廊帶跟整個國科有關我想請教的狀態是在第三點的部分"},{"start":136.65,"end":148.076,"text":"就是延攬在地的需求跟培育人才我想請教清華大學是不是在我們這次桃秋喵大西湖計畫當中人才佈局裡面的主軸學府"},{"start":149.505,"end":168.827,"text":"清華大學 因為他就在當地啊 應該是舊地人才的肯定是嘛 因為清華大學在桃竹苗大細股計畫當中肯定是一個人才佈局很重要的一個學府嘛 對不對是嘛 OK 好那我想說 因為在整個配合在地需求延攬培育人才當中有好多好多的子計畫"},{"start":171.168,"end":184.954,"text":"很多裡面的時候包括成立重點的研究學校或者是科專等等或者說有一些產業碩士等等很多的部分都是教育部這邊相關的"},{"start":186.255,"end":212.225,"text":"那清華大學因為為了要配合我們桃九毛大細股計畫他也提出了很多的一個具體的一個計畫出來包括要擴大招生還有擴大師資的一個部分然後希望建置一個校園的一個改善跟整個強化資訊安全系統然後跟整個教職員的一個部分這些部分都是為了要去符合桃九毛大細股計畫包括我們經濟部在講AI產業當中未來"},{"start":214.306,"end":238.8,"text":"五年的時候要增加20萬個就業人口一樣的一個狀態都在培育人才可是我發現就是清華大學很積極可是教育部的回應很冷淡院長知不知道這個事情這個應該要請教育部來比較了解謝謝委員關心這個我們產業重點產業的一些人才培育跟產業的發展"},{"start":241.575,"end":263.753,"text":"確實清華大學它是一個非常有品牌也非常非常好的一個大學頂尖大學那也跟委員報告在清華大學它的一個校務即校務發展配合產業所培養人才基本上教育部都是樂觀其成持平而論我們是擔心清華他老師的教學負荷量太高他不願意申請"},{"start":264.554,"end":270.317,"text":"太多的這些民眾的增加也就是說我要跟文報告這麼多我在一分鐘有跟文報告因為清華大學我剛提的計畫你需要教育部怎麼回嗎教育部回他們了直接公文回他們說依程序申請"},{"start":282.724,"end":303.045,"text":"然後教育部說到時候試資源條件再來核定那我要特別講的狀態是如果清華大學很願意很積極那部長剛剛提到說你剛剛還在擔心清華大學不願意太積極去做怕增加太多的loading那現在清華大學他們願意去做希望部長給他們更多的支持好不好"},{"start":303.505,"end":318.197,"text":"這是肯定的 但是我要跟委員報告他最近有一個案子是因為新的年度的這個這個戲所的名額都已經核定了然後他才要申請就說我們有一定程序的申請在這個軌道上"},{"start":319.718,"end":335.409,"text":"那你現在口頭上也答應要給清華大學更多的一個支持那這樣就夠了我們會讓清華大學在基本上在提出的計畫希望教育部這邊給他們更多的一個支持那我這邊希望請教一下院長部長可以齁我請教一下院長"},{"start":336.149,"end":359.77,"text":"我們這邊呢 因為我剛剛提到說從1月20號開始的時候我們有個中央跟地方的跨平台的一個溝通的狀態針對桃園灣大西湖計畫可是到現在十個月都沒有開會我在想可不可以就是院長承諾一下我們接下來每一個月能夠針對這個跨中央地方的一個溝通平台的時候能夠建立一個越都島的一個制度可不可以"},{"start":360.455,"end":375.266,"text":"好 跟委員報告桃竹苗大矽谷跟我們現在推動的大南方新矽谷我會說這是兩個引擎帶動國家的高科技產業所以我們不會讓它沒有進度的那您說的那個平台應該是屬於國發會在主持的那國發會"},{"start":380.607,"end":406.989,"text":"據知國發會應該是有開過會議1月10號開過1月20號開過之後就沒有了所以我這邊只是希望說院長承諾一下報告委員昨天有再開過昨天再開又開了那有開其實好事可是我希望院長這邊承諾一下我們有一個越都島的一個機制把這管考部分抓緊一點好不好好的應該的好感謝那我接下來我想請教一下因為那個"},{"start":408.45,"end":429.928,"text":"台美的對等關稅的問題其實因為還沒有做最後的一個結論那這過程當中有很多的部分那我今天針對台積電的問題要就教於行政院長因為我們的行政院副院長也直接表示要幫川普來建立美版的竹科然後要來換取我們關稅的一個優惠這是一個"},{"start":432.91,"end":455.76,"text":"然後我們的副總統他也特別提到我們已經承諾要在美投資不僅是台積電還包括了整個生態系那這個部分的時候表示副總統已經很清楚提到了台灣的半導體供應鏈會一起赴美那這樣子的一件事情的時候我想針對這個部分請教一下院長在這麼多的訊息當中"},{"start":457.421,"end":473.935,"text":"那美國的官員提到了台積電的高階製程要五五分百分之五十要在美國生產這個部分我們行政院有沒有具體的態度兩個方面跟委員回答我想行政院從來沒有說過美版竹科這四個字"},{"start":474.515,"end":493.884,"text":"竹科就是竹科竹科的經驗很難在其他地方國家來複製的但是我們現在跟美國成立一個服務園區那不是美版的竹科那是一種服務台商也服務在地的廠商以後做更多人才資金的合作第二個所有的五五分這個議題是一直是不存在的"},{"start":494.144,"end":522.193,"text":"都不存在嗎 都不存在的OK 那院長我這邊跟你講幾個部分因為我們看了那個就是台積電的一個法說會的相關報告裡面還有我們目前整個一些幾個相關的指標那我這邊是參考了美國那個國際貿易委員會還有一些相關的國外的一些研究機構他們提出來的狀態2024年台灣的GDP大概是7690億美元我用美元來計算因為後面也都是用美元來算那台灣政府的稅收大概在3.73"},{"start":523.934,"end":547.625,"text":"造台幣就是1127億美元左右那我們政府的稅收大概佔整個名目GDP大概14%然後按照美國國際貿易委員會他這邊提出來的一些指標出來說台灣的半導體產業佔台灣GDP的13%到20%因為不同的一個研究機構他們出來的一個數字有點落差我一樣"},{"start":548.385,"end":564.816,"text":"就是透明的一個呈現那這樣表示說在台灣大概每七八塊賺七八塊的錢大概就有一塊是半導體產業出來的所以半導體產業它如果出現很大的變化的時候對台灣肯定是很大的影響這很簡單的概念應該沒有問題對不對 院長"},{"start":567.511,"end":582.945,"text":"這個論述的方向是對的那是不是精準到這個部分這沒問題因為我這邊也有一個論據在這個論述方向基本上是對的謝謝院長那這邊的時候我們也看到科學園區竹科中科跟南科在去年2024年的時候"},{"start":585.526,"end":603.158,"text":"在整個機體電路的一個產值已經佔全部科學園區的79.99%將近八成所以台灣非常的依賴半導體這個產業那我們看到了這個部分的時候我要特別提到的一個情況是說因為目前為止"},{"start":604.841,"end":627.6,"text":"台積電確定要到美國去投資就超過1650億美元在日本投資有200億美元在德國投資有110億美元加起來將近2000億美元這是已經浮上檯面的院長你知道今年台積電的資本投資幾乎都在台灣是多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":628.94,"end":645.33,"text":"應該不知道我直接簡單跟你講他的法說當直接講說在400億到420億當我們有將近2000億的資本要投資到海外去的時候將近是五年2025年台積電在台灣的投資金額這對台灣的經濟產業還有高所得"},{"start":650.438,"end":669.423,"text":"家庭等等會有多大的影響我不知道院長這邊有沒有要求我們相關的單位做出一個台灣高階半導體製程移到海外去之後會對台灣產生的影響的評估有沒有細節我請主委但是我認為這個是產業自己"},{"start":672.458,"end":682.246,"text":"全球佈局的一個方式再來他投資的這兩千億委員所說的不是一年兩千億所以我也直接講所以2025年台積電法術會長他2025年投資的資本投資是420億而且大部分在台灣"},{"start":689.412,"end":704.243,"text":"那接下來這2000億當中的時候如果以2025年的標準等於25年的投資金額它都不在台灣未來台積電在台灣的設廠投資還是會最多的理解所以台積電在台灣的投資不會停下來它不會減少"},{"start":707.225,"end":721.601,"text":"那他在海外的投資他也會透過董事會的同意也會逐年來編列啦這個部分都沒有問題主委 院長這都沒有問題我只是要呈現出一個狀態就是台積電他基本上"},{"start":722.202,"end":737.816,"text":"到海外去投資這麼大規模的時候很多民眾還會擔心台灣的半導體業被掏空再加上當時我們經濟部這邊在講說境外關內 境內關外這樣的一個投資要讓很多產業跟著半導體"},{"start":738.977,"end":757.131,"text":"現在不只是產業鏈外移以副總統的說法是整個生態系的一個外移那以這樣的狀態的時候我們很擔心所以我們希望行政院能夠針對台積電高製程高階製程的部分能夠做更進一步的評估到底對台灣會產生怎麼樣子的一個影響"},{"start":757.731,"end":783.808,"text":"好委員這個其實我們都一直在關注一直在評估一直在跟台積電在討論這個事情我們的先進製程研發絕對留在台灣台灣的投資不會減少不會中斷因為現在供不應求所以我們在海外是增加投資增加投資的原因是因為台積電的收入一直不斷的在成長所以他有本他有本錢可以往所以主委所以你的意思是說今年台積電在台灣投資420億美元"},{"start":785.709,"end":811.428,"text":"明年接下来几年也都会持续这么高金额的投资资本投资在台湾吗在台湾的投资也会基于我们在园区开发的这个速度不见得是同样的但是一定会增加因为台积电它是一个企业这本席都会理解可是我要讲的状态是台积电420亿2025年的资本投入在台湾它基本上占了台湾GDP的5.2%"},{"start":814.11,"end":837.3,"text":"非常非常的高如果接下來台積電沒有繼續在台灣投資的時候我覺得台灣的經濟成長產生非常令人擔心的問題所以本席只是希望我們行政院包括我們國科會經濟部相關的單位能夠好好的去因應這樣子的一個問題因為我剛剛舉的那幾個具體的數字都是很客觀的一個數字出來"},{"start":838.28,"end":852.052,"text":"我們現在這兩千億就是五年台積電在台灣投資的一個金額兩點跟委員報告基於政府的全球產業的戰略跟我們所有產業自主性的全球佈局跟留台灣 以台灣為優先這個絕對沒有改變"},{"start":853.954,"end":869.932,"text":"另外現在包括台積電在內其他國內的在世界有指標作用的科技大廠還一直在尋覓適合的地點能夠進行他們擴廠投資那這個部分政府會協助他們我們也希望地方政府能夠一起來協助讓產業能夠在台灣繼續增加他的投資"},{"start":873.415,"end":889.735,"text":"這沒問題 因為我在想說我們都希望台灣好也希望台積電能夠繼續帶動台灣的經濟成長只是說因為美國給他們用就是組合權在給台灣壓力我們希望政府也一樣有一套組合權去回應美國給的壓力我們不只是解決關稅的問題也要解決整個產業的問題"},{"start":893.419,"end":916.723,"text":"那麼當然包括了我們台灣最依賴的半導體相關的一個產業我們這個生態系好不容易建立起來不要因為短短為了現在要去滿足川普政府的一個壓力的時候我們就完全拱手浪出去我覺得這會造成台灣未來非常令人憂心的一個經濟跟國安的狀態報告委員 我們絕對一定會把台灣的這個產業持續壯大"},{"start":929.472,"end":929.873,"text":"好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（15時45分）謝謝主席，我想請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好。我延續剛剛呂玉玲委員針對桃竹苗大矽谷提問的問題，我也跟著問一下。賴總統在2024年選舉的時候提出，桃竹苗大矽谷是他的產業政策中很重要的一環，因為它的涵蓋面非常地廣，包括了空間的問題、教育的問題、人才的問題、產業的問題，還包括了生活的問題等等。在2024年9月卓院長上來之後也正式地宣布上路了，確實也很熱鬧，吸引了大家很多的關注。在今年1月20號的時候，中央跟地方政府也達成了一個共識，決定要建立桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的溝通平臺，中央跨部會跟地方政府的，院長知道這個事情，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：桃竹苗大矽谷一直是我們六大區域產業生活圈的領頭……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我說溝通平臺，重要的一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：最先核定的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以在1月20號的時候中央決定跨部會跟地方成立一個溝通平臺，可是10個月過去了，到現在一次會都沒有開，我這邊比較疑惑的是大矽谷計畫只是一個選舉競選的口號，還是真的要如實如質地推動？可不可以請院長口頭回復一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是，我們在桃竹苗大矽谷計畫之後，其他的六大區域產業生活圈計畫都依序核定了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：確定要推嘛，OK，那很好！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是未來要襯托臺灣基礎建設重要的生活指標跟產業指標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那很好！桃竹苗大矽谷計畫裡面有四大策略，包括「深耕在地前瞻技術驅動產業創新」、「強化深科技新創發展」，第三點是「配合在地需求延攬與培育人才」，這跟教育部有關，另外「優化園區建設構築科技廊帶」跟國科會有關。我想請教的是第三點，就是配合在地需求延攬與培育人才，我想請教，清華大學在這次桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當中，是不是在人才布局裡面的主軸學府？"],["卓院長榮泰：清華大學？"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，清華大學。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它就在當地啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：應該是嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是就在地人才的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：肯定是嘛，清華大學在桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當中，肯定是人才布局很重要的一個學府，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為在整個配合在地需求延攬與培育人才當中，有好多好多的子計畫，包括成立重點研究的學校，或者是科專，或者一些產業、碩士等等，很多部分都是跟教育部相關的。清華大學為了要配合桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，也提出了很多具體的計畫出來，包括要擴大招生與擴大師資、建置友善校園環境及強化資訊安全系統，以及整個教職員的部分，這些都是為了要去符合桃竹苗大矽谷計畫。包括跟經濟部在講的，AI產業當中，未來5年要增加20萬個就業人口一樣，都是在培育人才。可是我發現清華大學很積極，教育部的回應卻很冷淡，院長知不知道這個事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個應該要請教育部回答比較了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我們重點產業的人才培育跟發展，確實清華大學是一個非常有品牌，也非常好的頂尖大學。也跟委員報告，清華大學的校務發展及配合產業所培養的人才，基本上教育部都是樂觀其成，持平而論，我們是擔心清華的老師教學負荷量太高，他不願意申請增加太多的名額……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，你講這個部分，可能是在院長前面……"],["鄭部長英耀：請容我再1分鐘跟委員報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為清華大學具體提出了申請計畫，你知道教育部怎麼回嗎？教育部回他們了，直接公文回他們說依程序申請，到時候視資源條件再來核定。我要特別講的狀態是，如果清華大學很願意、很積極，部長剛剛還在擔心清華大學不願意太積極去做，怕增加太多的loading，但現在清華大學願意去做，希望部長給他們更多的支持，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：這是肯定的，但是我要跟委員報告，他最近有一個案子是因為新年度系所的名額都已經核定了，然後他才要申請，但是我們有一定的申請程序……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個沒問題，部長，這個細節沒有問題……"],["鄭部長英耀：在這一個軌道上，我們一定會支持他。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為你現在口頭上也答應要給清華大學更多的支持，這樣就夠了，我們會讓清華大學基本上提出的計畫……"],["鄭部長英耀：他按照程序來申請，我都會支持。"],["鄭委員正鈐：希望教育部給他們更多的支持……"],["鄭部長英耀：也謝謝委員關心。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我請教院長，因為我剛剛提到從1月20號開始，針對桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，我們中央跟地方有跨平臺溝通的狀態，可是到現在10個月過了都沒有開會，可不可以請院長承諾一下，我們接下來每一個月針對跨中央、地方的溝通平臺，能夠建立月督導的制度，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，桃竹苗大矽谷跟我們現在推動的大南方新矽谷，我一直說這是兩個引擎來帶動國家的高科技產業，所以我們不會讓它沒有進度的。您說的那個平臺應該是屬於國發會在主持的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["卓院長榮泰：據我知道國發會應該是有開過會議……"],["鄭委員正鈐：1月20號開過之後就沒有了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我這邊只是希望院長承諾一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：昨天有再開。"],["鄭委員正鈐：昨天又開了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，有開是好事，可是我需要院長承諾一下，有月督導的機制，把管考部分抓緊一點，院長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，應該的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，感謝。接下來我想請教臺美對等關稅的問題，因為還沒有做最後的結論，這過程中有很多的部分，我今天針對台積電的問題要就教於行政院長，因為我們的行政院副院長也直接表示，要幫川普建立美版的竹科來換取我們關稅的優惠，這是一個。然後我們的副總統也特別提到，我們已經承諾要在美投資，不僅是台積電，還包括了整個生態系，副總統已經很清楚提到臺灣的半導體供應鏈會一起赴美。我想針對這個部分請教院長，在這麼多的訊息當中，美國的官員提到台積電的高階製程要「五五分」、50%要在美國生產，我們行政院有沒有具體的態度？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個方面跟委員說明，我想行政院從來沒有說過「美版竹科」這四個字，竹科就是竹科，竹科的經驗很難在其他地方、國家複製的，但是我們跟美國成立一個服務園區，那不是美版的竹科，那是一種服務臺商也服務在地的廠商，以後做更多人才、資金的合作，這是第一個。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，理解。"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個，「五五分」這個議題一直是不存在的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都不存在嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：都不存在。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，院長，我跟你講幾個部分，因為我們看了台積電法說會相關報告，還有目前幾個相關的指標，我這邊是參考了美國國際貿易委員會，還有一些國外相關研究機構提出來的狀態。2024年臺灣的GDP大概是7,690億美元，我用美元來計算因為後面也都是用美元來算；臺灣政府的稅收大概在3.73兆臺幣，就是1,127億美元左右，而我們政府的稅收大概占整個名目GDP大概14%。按照美國國際貿易委員會提出的指標，臺灣的半導體產業占臺灣GDP的13%到20%，因為不同的研究機構出來的數字有點落差，我一樣透明的呈現，這樣表示在臺灣賺7、8塊的錢，大概就有1塊是半導體產業出來的。所以半導體產業如果出現很大變化的時候，對臺灣肯定是有很大的影響，這很簡單的概念應該沒有問題，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個論述的方向是對的，是不是精準到這個部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這沒問題，所以我也有一個range在，這個論述方向基本上是對的，謝謝院長。我們也看到科學園區包括竹科、中科跟南科在去（2024）年的時候，整個積體電路產值已經占全部科學園區的79.99%，將近八成，所以臺灣非常地依賴半導體產業。我們看到這個部分，我要特別提到一個情況，目前為止台積電確定要到美國投資就超過1,650億美元，在日本投資有200億美元，在德國投資有110億美元，加起來將近2,000億美元，這是已經浮上檯面的。院長，你知道今年台積電的資本投資幾乎都在臺灣，是多少錢，你知道嗎？應該不知道，我直接簡單跟你講。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：它的法說會當中直接說在400億到420億。當我們有將近2,000億的資本要投資到海外的時候，將近是五年，2025年台積電在臺灣的投資金額，這對臺灣的經濟、產業還有高所得家庭等等會有多大的影響。我不知道院長有沒有要求相關的單位，做出臺灣高階半導體製程移到海外之後會對臺灣產生的影響評估，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：細節我請主委說明，但是我認為這是產業自己全球布局的一個方式。再來，它投資的這2,000億，委員所說的不是一年2,000億投資海外，是很多年累積下來的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以我也直接講2025年，台積電法說會講在2025年的資本投資是420億，而且大部分在臺灣，接下來這2,000億當中，如果以2025年為標準，有五年的投資金額它都不在臺灣喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：未來台積電在臺灣設廠投資還是會最多的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：台積電在臺灣的投資不會停下來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解！"],["吳主任委員誠文：它不會減少，而且在海外投資也會透過董事會的同意逐年編列，這是在擴充……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分都沒有問題，主委、院長，這都沒有問題，我只是要呈現出一個狀態，就是基本上台積電到海外投資這麼大規模的時候，很多民眾會擔心臺灣的半導體產業被掏空，再加上當時經濟部在講「境外關內、境內關外」這樣的投資，要讓很多產業跟著半導體……現在不只是產業鏈外移，以副總統的說法是整個生態系的外移，以這樣的狀態是我們很擔心的，所以我們希望行政院能夠針對台積電高階製程的部分做更進一步的評估，到底對臺灣會產生怎麼樣的影響。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，這個其實我們都一直在關注，一直在評估，一直在跟台積電討論這個事情，我們的先進製程研發絕對留在臺灣，臺灣的投資不會減少、不會中斷，因為現在供不應求，所以我們在海外是增加投資，增加投資的原因是因為台積電的收入一直不斷地在成長，所以它有本錢可以往海外再擴充……"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委，所以你的意思是，今年台積電在臺灣投資420億美元，接下來的幾年也都會持續以高金額的資本投資在臺灣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在臺灣的投資也會基於我們在園區開發的速度，不見得是同樣的金額，但是一定會增加……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，主委，我覺得這沒有問題，因為台積電是一個企業，這本席都理解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以委員不能講……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是我要講的狀態是，台積電420億2025年的資本投入在臺灣，它基本上占了臺灣GDP的5.2%，非常非常的高，如果接下來台積電沒有繼續在臺灣投資的時候，臺灣的經濟成長就會產生令人非常擔心的問題，所以本席只是希望行政院，包括國科會、經濟部相關單位能夠好好地因應這樣的問題，因為我剛剛舉那幾個具體的數字，都是很客觀的數字。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們現在這2000億，就是五年台積電在臺灣投資的金額。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員報告，基於政府全球產業戰略跟我們所有產業自主性的全球布局，根留臺灣、以臺灣為優先，這個絕對沒有改變。另外，現在包括台積電在內，其他國內的、在世界有指標作用的各個科技大廠還一直在尋覓適合的地點，能夠進行他們擴廠投資。這個部分政府會協助他們，我們也希望地方政府能夠一起來協助，讓產業能夠在臺灣繼續增加他的投資。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這沒問題，因為我們都希望臺灣好，也希望台積電能夠繼續帶動臺灣的經濟成長，只是說因為美國用「組合拳」在給臺灣壓力，我們希望政府也要有一套「組合拳」去回應美國給的壓力。我們不只是解決關稅問題，也要解決整個產業問題，當然包括我們臺灣最倚賴的半導體相關產業，我們這個生態系好不容易建立起來，不要因為短短為了現在要去滿足川普政府的壓力，我們就完全拱手讓出去，我覺得這會造成臺灣未來非常令人憂心的經濟跟國安狀態。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們絕對一定會把臺灣的產業持續壯大，並且我們擴充到海外，絕對不是掏空，絕對不是！而是跟美國同步發展。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aa1dbe21395d9307d985e1af54c489cd62f4f6bdef64fc7eb2e319f0192663703a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"15:28:21 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我們家計都有給他 偏項都有給他但是師資的家計沒給他 為什麼 本席要提醒你的就是說因為啊 這個代課或代理老師他們"},{"start":592.878,"end":611.283,"text":"沒有辦法說一個學校就帶課他可能要去找好多學校帶課的機會對不對所以也疲於奔命還要備課所以沒辦法是回饋給學生他的學習的歷程所以這方面可不可以研議可不可以研議給年資的加緊"},{"start":612.684,"end":626.557,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想確實如果有這樣屬於代課但是他事實上是在特別偏鄉有一個區域性的好幾個學校比如說本土語言的老師或者這個steam科學的老師他確實這樣的代"},{"start":627.998,"end":653.406,"text":"我想我們全盤來了解來研議謝謝委員接受我們很高興因為這些都是教育團體提供給本席的都是他們現場第一線的老師提供出來的意見好不好生意是有讓老師生產的臨時要找代理老師代課老師都有這個需要臨時找是不容易找的嘛好不好雖然說有流浪老師但是我們希望這老師還是給他輔導起來可不可以"},{"start":656.205,"end":676.46,"text":"就是你要有誘因這個誘因就是本席所講的這個部分希望你每一下都去研議教育部我們的態度跟委員是一樣怎麼樣有一個更好的一個教育的環境然後讓學生老師安心教然後學生安心學能夠有一個好的一個學習品質"},{"start":678.742,"end":701.564,"text":"要安心 再提供你一個意見就是說在改善我們職場當中的話現在我們的國民小學的員額編制在105年提高到1.65到現在將近10年的都沒有再做調整台北現在每個班是1.9 新北是1.7台中也是1.7"},{"start":702.745,"end":716.462,"text":"那現在我們教育部的規定是1.65那很多學校全台灣的話很多學校都比照你這個底線標準是1.65可不可以這個也來做一個調整調整到1比8還是1比7這樣子好不好"},{"start":718.104,"end":739.956,"text":"還是那些 我們鼓勵地方就在教育部訂一個最起碼的標準但是你地方怎麼去攬財 留財 提升教育品質 地方是有這個前摺的部長你要說因為地方各自的需要去做調整但是底線標準定在那邊很多學校就會依照你的底線標準來完成 所以"},{"start":740.496,"end":754.872,"text":"教育部對偏鄉的一些教育部長你去研議可不可以再調整偏鄉條例還有一些我們事實上的不一樣的有的2.0有的就是說對偏鄉的一些教育教育部這一個部分我們事實上是有額外再給一些延額的"},{"start":755.373,"end":775.589,"text":"不只偏鄉 但是跟你唸的前五名都是台北 新北 桃園 台中所以 請你去研議 調整高一點一比七 或一比八 我想在未來我們會跟地方政府有更積極的討論譬如說在財化法以後 地方有更豐富的一個財源不是 你制度面要先制定好來"},{"start":776.63,"end":797.368,"text":"你的原來制度標準要定個底線不要再出來啊全國就會一起適用我們這個底線當然我們要跟地方來討論因為持平論教育部如果定的太高我們希望太好但是地方政府沒有辦法去執行的話我想這也圖法就是我們只是好 部長你願意接受那去研議"},{"start":799.009,"end":813.674,"text":"問題都出來了教師荒很嚴重好不好我跟委員報告一句話委員應該給部長多一點鼓勵因為您剛剛說的大部分關於教師行政職代課老師種種未來一個新的想法"},{"start":814.656,"end":833.325,"text":"部長在前幾天已經向我報告說明過了那我們會查這個方針 應該給部長多一點努力 你說的問題他不能夠提到這些問題我都點出來了 你去研究來提升我們學校師資的穩定性跟持續性讓我們的老師可以留任 留下來"},{"start":833.925,"end":858.959,"text":"在第一線為我們的孩子來付出我剛說第一個強調他留任的機制部長都已經提出他的想法我剛點出幾個問題你一定要去做付諸具體的制度出來感謝委員一路來都關心事實上剛才委員所關心的不管校事法或者老師的待遇或者行政原諒或者種種的問題我們事實上也我要利用這個機會要特別謝謝院長他事實上是有指示教育部一定要"},{"start":859.969,"end":885.721,"text":"正是這些問題然後要有一個延誼有一個相對的一個以實際性謝謝部長請你延誼出來謝謝部長請回謝謝部長請回我現在請國科會的吳主委主委你慢慢走過來因為我時間有限時間暫停好主委也沒問題時間暫停謝謝慢慢走不要急不要摔跤了"},{"start":894.997,"end":912.864,"text":"因為時間有限我直接切主題那就是我們桃竹苗大細股計劃已經在執行當中那現在我們的龍潭龍科三期有列入大細股的這個計劃裡面那現在因為我們龍科三期在2022年的時候就已經公佈"},{"start":913.644,"end":929.581,"text":"要來擴充我們的這個科學園區那那時候的話因為是土地範圍沒有跟民眾溝通所以有卡關的情形但是本席跟我們科管局還有市政府都一再的溝通現在大約的土地面積在90公頃左右"},{"start":930.222,"end":947.207,"text":"那在去年的12月跟3月已經開了兩場公聽會本來是今年的3月應該要送到行政院來核定但是又有民眾要願意納入所以又再舉辦 再啟動公聽會所以本期想請問的就是是不是大廠 國際廠商要進來進步所以你要再重新啟動這個公聽會"},{"start":956.63,"end":981.592,"text":"因為你從兵器跟工兵分了嘛所以大概是在時期的二、八、九又要開始補位那現在如果郭文貴又完畢又有亞大陸那無限期遙遙無期就一直在"},{"start":981.932,"end":990.638,"text":"舉辦工程會上所有程序重新啟動嗎是不是也可以確定啟程這次11月28、29工程會完畢就送行政院民兵"},{"start":1025.564,"end":1026.325,"text":"好 謝謝李玉琳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（15時28分）謝謝主席，請卓院長跟教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、教育部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：呂委員好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：院長、部長，教育是國家的百年大計，也是我們下一代成長的最主要關鍵。首先本席要來跟你討教教師荒的問題，說到教師荒，我相信很多委員也都提過這個問題，根據教育部的統計，全國公立國中小共有3,303校，缺了1,429名的代理教師，其中國小教師缺額最高的縣市有新北、臺北、臺中、桃園跟彰化；國中的部分，缺額最高的前五名有新北、桃園、臺北、臺中跟臺南，這就是現在教育鬧人力荒的問題，今年更加嚴重。尤其是本席所在的桃園，某個學校有公告7項職缺，都沒有人來報名，設校在7月31號有公告，國中國文的部分徵了40次；數學部分徵了46次老師；地理部分徵了49次，7項職缺通通都沒有人來報名甄選。所以請教院長、部長，這個教育的老師荒問題，我們如何解決、有什麼解決的辦法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復，有兩個原則，第一個，先要把教師的留任意願提高……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，現在就要留任。"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，各地的缺額要實際的精算，實際的做法我想教育部是非常努力，請部長來答復。"],["呂委員玉玲：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上，從我們的統計數字來看，目前中小學老師總共有十九萬多……"],["呂委員玉玲：你針對我的問題，缺了老師怎麼樣去補、有什麼辦法？"],["鄭部長英耀：我要跟委員報告，關於國中小，以現在所有全國的這些大專院校在培養師資，事實上每一年領有證照大概有超過六千……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，你都有培訓，但是沒有投入第一線的教師工作！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，所以我要跟委員報告，我們也利用這段時間在鼓勵地方政府，因為根據地方制度法，國民教育本來就是地方的權責，但是教育部在培養師資這個部分的量是夠的，但是地方怎麼樣去攬才，有更……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你完全沒有了解到真正的問題！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，如果委員讓我有比較多的說明，我就會比較完整的跟委員報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛就講了，你有在培訓教師，但是沒有投入第一線。"],["鄭部長英耀：老師有教師證但不願意到地方去任教，其中當然有很多的原因……"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼不到第一線？你有沒有發現這個問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：有很多原因，包括科技產業的發達，待遇比較好，STEM也是……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以薪資的問題嘛。"],["鄭部長英耀：還有另外一個，譬如說我們在學校看到……至少我從去年520進來，我一直在觀察、也一直希望解決這個問題，我們看到家長、老師跟校長基本上互信不夠，這對小孩子的教育是不好的！"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我也很想聽你講完，你去年發現這個問題，到今年有1年的時間，你努力做了些什麼？但是我發現你並沒有發現真正的原因，所以本席提醒你、告訴你，你來做。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是因為有這個教師荒的問題，BBC深度探討我們臺灣有年輕老師的斷層問題，在2004年，關於30歲以下的年輕老師占比，高中占比大概在17%到23%、國中部分占比將近20%；我們看到現在的占比數一直在下滑，甚至不到10%。這就是不願意投入到第一線來做教育工作的年齡斷層。","為什麼發生這樣的問題？第一個，部長，你剛剛有提到薪資待遇，關於老師現在的薪資待遇，臺灣中小學師資的底薪是2萬5,000元，現在勞工的基本工資是2萬9,500元，這是不是有落差了？雖然老師有研究加給、導師加給、行政加給跟偏遠地區加給，但是這大概才4、5萬塊而已，他做了10年後才可能從四萬多到七萬多；如果是讀理工科的話，他們的薪資可能就會更高了，就像半導體業者都會比較高，所以這個就是薪資問題，本席要提醒你的就是薪資問題！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，薪資確實跟產業……但是教師的結構本來就是本俸加學術研究費，不能把它一刀兩切，說他的本俸不比勞工，我想這樣的一個比較是……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席告訴你的你要聽清楚。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛有說他的底薪是2萬5,000元，加給加起來到4、5萬，有加加給，但是現在這些勞工的基本工資在這20年來的漲幅大概在230%，但是我們老師的鐘點費大概漲了5%到29%，漲的幅度非常小，所以第一個原因就是薪資待遇，你可以做一個調整，好不好？","第二個就是行政工作，因為我們並沒有設置行政人員，老師都要兼行政人員，工作非常的辛苦，尤其是我們教育政策一直在變遷，現在包括12年國教還有108課綱，老師要備課、要做一些資料、報表等等，都是勞心勞力非常的辛苦，又要兼任行政人員的話，我相信他們是疲於奔命，所以要改善教師的工作環境，這是第二點，好不好？你有沒有發現這個問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上……"],["呂委員玉玲：這問題我去年總質詢也提過了，但是並沒有設立行政人員的編制……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，也感謝委員關注臺灣教育，包括老師的工作權益……"],["呂委員玉玲：要做！"],["鄭部長英耀：我也因為這樣，到北、中、南、東各地跟家長、老師還有校長、團體有很多的座談……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，家長、老師、學校你都可以去溝通，但是要付諸行動、制度，你要去做啊！你都知道，但是一年又過去了，你都沒有做！"],["鄭部長英耀：我就是到各地方去……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席提醒你，你聽我講！因為你剛剛講的只是去北、中、南溝通，跟老師、家長溝通，你並沒有付諸行動，有一個具體的政策出來，所以本席提醒你薪資及改善教育環境，還有本席要再提醒你第三個，就是現在很多家長會投訴，老師要被調查，或者是他們很多的工作上，身心都會俱疲，所以在第一線工作上沒有辦法去支撐，需要有代課老師，但現在缺老師、教師荒，就有代課老師的問題，代課老師和代理老師也都不一樣，在第一線工作的老師薪資不如正式老師。我們在工作上特別有一個條例是專任教師可以比照老師，但是代課老師就沒有辦法比照老師，針對這一點，我們是不是能調整？比方年資的加給，代課老師有沒有年資？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為代課老師授課的時數確實是……"],["呂委員玉玲：那代課老師只上一個學校嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：他只有代一個禮拜或者兩個禮拜的兩節課，所以確實以目前來講是沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，代課老師大部分都是學校老師去代理其他同事的課程，這叫代課……"],["鄭部長英耀：這是一種方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：我現在是講代課，但代理老師又是不一樣的，所以這兩個是不一樣的喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，現在代理老師跟專任老師的待遇是一致的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在很多偏鄉的老師請不到，比如說數學老師、國文老師，都已經開學了，偏鄉的這些老師還請不到。我們是不是可以比照專任老師的方式？我們加給都有給他、偏鄉都有給他，但是師資的加給沒給他，為什麼？本席要提醒你的是，因為代課或代理老師沒有辦法只代課一個學校，他可能要去找好多學校的代課機會，對不對？因此也疲於奔命，還要備課，所以沒辦法回饋給學生他的學習歷程，所以這方面可不可以研議給年資的加給？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，如果有這樣屬於代課，但是他事實上是特別在偏鄉，有一個區域性的好幾個學校，比如本土語言的老師或者STEM科學的老師，他確實這樣的代，我想我們全盤來了解、研議，謝謝委員提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長願意接受，我們很高興，因為這些都是教育團體提供給本席的，都是他們現場第一線的老師提供出來的意見，好不好？甚至有的老師要生產，臨時要找代理老師、代課老師，都有這個需要，臨時找是不容易找的，好不好？雖然說有流浪老師，但是我們希望這些老師還是給他輔導起來，可不可以？就是你要有誘因，這個誘因就是本席所講的這個部分，希望你每一項都去研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，教育部的態度跟委員是一樣的，怎麼樣有一個更好的教育環境，讓老師安心教，讓學生安心學，能夠有一個好的學習品質，這是我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長講得很好，要安心！本席再提供你一個意見，在改善我們職場的部分，現在國民小學的員額編制在105年提高到1.65，但到現在近十年都沒有再調整，臺北市目前每個班是1.9，新北市是1.7，臺中市也是1.7，現在教育部的規定是1.65，全臺灣很多學校都比照這個底線標準是1.65，這個可不可以也調整？調整到1比8還是1比7，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們鼓勵地方……"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣就減輕他們的工作壓力啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部訂一個最起碼的標準，但是地方怎麼樣去攬才留才、提升教育品質，地方是有這個權責的。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你要說因地方各自的需要去調整，但是底線標準訂在那邊，很多學校就會依照底線標準來完成，所以部長，你去研議可不可以再調整。"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部對偏鄉還是有額外……偏鄉條例，還有一些我們事實上……"],["呂委員玉玲：去調整，剛剛本席告訴你的……"],["鄭部長英耀：有的2.0，有的……就是對偏鄉的教育，教育部對於這一個部分，我們事實上是有額外再給一些員額的。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，不只偏鄉，本席跟你唸的前五名都是臺北、新北、桃園、臺中，所以請你去研議，調整高一點，1比7或1比8，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員提醒，在未來我們會跟地方政府有更積極的討論，譬如在財劃法以後，地方有更豐富的財源。"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，制度面要先制定好。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：員額制度標準要訂個底線、底標出來……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，這一個……"],["呂委員玉玲：全國就會一起適用。"],["鄭部長英耀：這一個底線當然我們都要跟地方討論，因為持平而論，教育部如果訂得太高，我們希望他們好，但是地方政府沒有辦法去執行的話，我想這也徒法……就是我們只是……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你願意接受……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：請去研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：問題都出來了，教師荒很嚴重，好不好？這幾點……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告一句話，委員應該給部長多一點鼓勵，因為您剛剛說的大部分關於教師、行政職、代課老師等種種未來一個新的想法，部長在前幾天已經向我報告說明過了，我們會朝這個方向，應該給部長多一點鼓勵，你說的問題大部分他都有提到。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這些問題我都點出來了，你去研究，以提升師資的穩定性跟持續性，讓我們的老師可以留任下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：留在第一線為我們的孩子付出，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以如我剛剛說的，第一個強調留任的機制。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，去研議出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長都已經提出他的想法。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛點出幾個問題，你一定要去做，付諸具體的制度出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["鄭部長英耀：也感謝委員一路來的關心，事實上剛才委員所關心的，不管校事法或老師的待遇，又或者行政能量等種種問題，事實上我也要利用這個機會，也要特別謝謝院長，他有指示教育部一定要正視這些問題，然後要研議一個相對與時俱進的做法。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長，請你研議出來，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長請回，謝謝。我現在請國科會的吳主委，主委，你慢慢走過來，因為我時間有限。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["主席：呂委員，沒問題，時間暫停。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：主委，慢慢走，不要急，不要摔跤了。好，時間繼續。"],["呂委員玉玲：院長、主委，因為時間有限，我直接切入主題。桃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EDD再來做一次全面清查尤其是對柬埔寨"},{"start":307.887,"end":332.904,"text":"其實我們對於現在剛才講說他在這邊我講尤其是對柬埔寨如果有這些所謂的境外公司來有這些境外的人來在我們的銀行體系當中你做個關懷吧做個清查吧我想委員他們進來很多細節沒辦法這邊說明其他這邊開戶還有這些往來並不是像我們現在已經這個案件已經揭露那麼明顯我可以理解因為那個年代沒有這些規範"},{"start":334.065,"end":363.221,"text":"我現在要說的是因為知道了所以我們現在往回頭去關懷我現在已經針對所有的金流整個做詳細的去查核院長我要說的是小市民都這樣查啦這個也認真查一下我們會一樣認真的查好不好我覺得這個部分從現在開始用這個案例來回推2019 2018新南鄉開始進來的多拿亞公司我們可能在銀行端要有一些動作不管如何"},{"start":363.968,"end":388.828,"text":"我覺得不能再錯放了下一關是說為什麼這一次美國用這樣的方式因為他們是用行政上面用制裁的方式然後要求我們的檢調來配合對吧 各位是對我們跟我不禁想到的是院長我們想一想如果今天台灣發生了同樣的事情我們能不能得到國際社會這樣的協助"},{"start":391.963,"end":402.158,"text":"我們能不能幫我們的民眾追回這些錢目前你有沒有這樣的機制你可不可以發一個文美國政府就幫你扣他在美國的財產目前有嗎"},{"start":403.783,"end":429.153,"text":"我們要建立這樣的管道 目前我看是要這是我 我們在去年我們在提出所謂打大專法的時候當時我們其實我們民眾黨提的案我們在洗錢防治法裡面我們希望能夠成立類似金融制裁專案辦公室也就是類似像恐怖分子反恐的這些動作因為行政的動作會比司法的動作快"},{"start":430.151,"end":451.469,"text":"而且如果他已經影響到現在是一種跨國性的企業化經營的大型的洗錢詐騙他其實需要政府更快速的金融制裁就比同美國他用國愛國者法案或者是相關的規範他們財政部就直接可以做行政制裁這是我上次在"},{"start":452.13,"end":478.918,"text":"提案的時候有提出來但是你看看我們的法務部怎麼說沒有必要不符比例原則所以我們沒有辦法處理所以我們不需要快速金融制裁院長從這個案例我希望你們開始重新思考台灣在這樣的情況下我們有沒有能力去處理跨國大型公司企業化運作的詐騙行為如果可以我們是不是在法律上面應該慢慢的怎麼樣去建置這樣的機制"},{"start":481.042,"end":498.097,"text":"我不希望行政院的回答是沒有必要在依法有據的前提底下能夠加強行政的作為加強對這些詐欺集團進一步的用快速的來制裁的話那我願意往這個方向請法務部單位能夠重新思考這個方向沒錯 至少往前走"},{"start":498.797,"end":517.498,"text":"如果我們重新想過如果我們今天這些事情發生在台灣我們明知道那邊有財產我們要去查封它我們本身的外交行為本來就很辛苦了那我們自己又不積極 不努力那人家為什麼要幫我們封一樣的意思嘛 好嗎"},{"start":518.653,"end":541.323,"text":"現在高檢署應該有一個跨部會的小組來研議這樣的方向那我會請他來也重視委員所提的建議的內容如果我們可以快速的制裁我們可以快速的動作這些跨國性的大型的企業他們已經是企業化已經不是你用我們的洗錢房子個人帳戶在那邊封的那種方法了好嗎"},{"start":542.987,"end":565.822,"text":"接下來我要問的是接下來我們大家最關心的就是普發現金其實政府的職責最近大家在討論的是怎麼領我們覺得台灣人最悲哀的是我們只要一個目標叫做不要被騙就好院長這樣聽起來難過了台灣人發現金不是寬天洗地都在想說怎麼樣不要被騙"},{"start":567.25,"end":588.961,"text":"政府的職責只有一個確保錢不會被騙走所以院長您今年九月說希望留給國家做更有意義的用途不用領或者是你說要希望大家去旅遊還要多吃台灣豬肉那今天大家都開始領了您覺得應該您的立場還一樣嗎我覺得如果能夠在這個時候"},{"start":590.598,"end":618.249,"text":"也用於國內的旅遊或是多幫助豬農在此時此刻在國內消費啦盡量去協助大家過得讓你有需要的剛需也好或者是特別的消費去增加國內經濟的熱絡在此刻是需要的而且是對但是這是大家吵最兇的就是說我們還是讓13歲以上的孩子他進到自己的帳戶嘛這我沒有什麼意見啦但是我要講的也是今天我非常重視的"},{"start":619.309,"end":639.042,"text":"我們趁著金融自主我們希望孩子們能夠有自己的金融觀念但是我比較擔心的是我們對於我們的所有的孩子其實我們從小到大沒有教過他怎麼領財沒有教過他怎麼投資所以我們沒有金融素養的情況下你給他錢"},{"start":641.087,"end":656.803,"text":"不趁這個機會做機會教育是很可惜的您看一下這個數字83%的孩子有自己的帳戶但是65%對於金融服務沒信心45%他每個月是超支的也就是他錢不夠23%有被詐騙過甚至18%曾經受損過幾百塊到幾十塊"},{"start":663.598,"end":682.278,"text":"我的孩子也被騙過現在的孩子沒有被騙過的不多了第一網路購物太多第二你上去買東西然後就寄來一瓶寶特瓶就沒了這種事情很多我們當成是機會教育但是我要講的是院長如果學校沒有教你教孩子怎麼學"},{"start":683.693,"end":702.251,"text":"所以我主張我們對於比方AI的知識跟理財的知識應該把它受教育的年齡層往下降放在學校裡面往下降第二個你知道學校沒教的事情現在孩子怎麼學的嗎93%是社群媒體社群媒體是他們學金融財經的唯一的管道93%"},{"start":704.093,"end":730.433,"text":"因為他爸爸媽媽都不懂啊那很難保證他得到的是正確的知識是 所以怎麼樣我一直跟彭主委說金融素養要進到學校甚至要從小開始學知道投資沒有人什麼十幾% 二十幾%的啦十幾% 二十幾%你還相信然後還把你身家全部拿去賠給了之後還去拿房子去抵押貸款的長輩一大堆"},{"start":731.953,"end":751.048,"text":"我們應該建立青年人他正確的理想觀念所以金融素養我覺得如果你是AI內閣你這個要把它放在最基本的台灣的投資詐騙這麼興盛不是沒有道理因為台灣人善良台灣人相信朋友台灣人只要有投資會賺錢聽到股票的代號就去買了"},{"start":752.179,"end":777.532,"text":"然後自己都不研究也不知道為什麼我覺得這才是我擔心的所以今天的問題是兒童青少年被詐騙的人數已經到一個非常高的數字了從17歲以下就有3000多人23歲以下將近25000人也就是說我們的兒童青少年被詐騙的被害人是逐年上升的他們相信的大部分在社群媒體上"},{"start":778.3,"end":796.999,"text":"上一次我們公共銀行全面抵制非實名制的社群平台不在上面上廣告我覺得這件事情很棒但是我想問一下主委這個成果怎麼樣我們叫他下架不登他的廣告現在的效果怎麼樣"},{"start":797.813,"end":823.401,"text":"主要是我們還是希望透過一個比較完整的金融基礎教育這也是我們一直在努力其實我們不管走入社區走入校園我們一樣啦我們有這麼多銀行有這麼多可以教育的他們有這麼多的資源怎麼樣協助我們的學校協助金管會協助教育部把這個部分下放到學校去不要透過這些社群媒體"},{"start":824.822,"end":841.723,"text":"下廣告他們在那邊幹嘛主要他們還是一樣這個社群媒體有它一定的穿透力但是我們也是持續的透過我們的金融機構還有就是我們所有金融市場的力量跟學校社區來合作做這件事情還是持續在做最後這個我希望院長這應該成為你的重要政策"},{"start":842.918,"end":859.825,"text":"既然我們的年輕人是我們的未來現在的問題是他剛講是被害人現在我們的少年詐欺犯成長率是年增率80%你看這個數字青少年詐欺犯罪從1000多人12歲到17歲變2900人然後18到23歲從6000多人變14000人他是"},{"start":866.653,"end":895.133,"text":"倍數的成長 每一年變成共犯的青少年是倍數的成長他不是只有沒有金融素養他甚至成為渣妻的共犯現在這個孩子才是最大的問題而且很多人是拿著他的帳戶去當人頭戶院長我只要求一個現在長輩的帳戶我們可以給他警示你有動作的時候要通知家屬一樣青少年的帳戶是不是應該做同樣的處理"},{"start":895.643,"end":920.766,"text":"好的 謝謝文文我會請現在行政院即將進一步強化的打詐指揮中心還有林彬新政委所主持的這個打詐業務重視這個數字也分析他的內容我們來針對問題做出解決的方法這個數字我問金管會他跟我說他沒有統計院長沒有統計就不會有統治我希望統計很重要分析很重要好嗎 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（15時2分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好。最近在臺灣我們看到了一些非常大的新聞，尤其是在金融界最大的新聞大概就是太子集團在臺灣的資產被查封，有這一個案例。我們以為詐騙集團離我們很遠，最近在Netflix上面有一齣戲叫「回魂計」，院長有沒有看過？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["黃委員珊珊：劇情是有人的女兒被詐騙集團誘拐去受虐致死，有兩個傷心的母親，我們以為這種事情離我們很遠，原來就發生在眼前。這個集團從2018年、2019年就進到臺灣了，而且現在是美國政府用制裁的方式通報了臺灣檢方查封。臺灣已經變成詐騙集團的後花園，臺灣已經成為他們隱藏資產的最佳場地。今天我們一直在打詐，可是打到現在卻讓人覺得越打越詐，而且這些人肆無忌憚，把臺灣的法規還有相關的漏洞全部都摸得一清二楚。院長，在您進來之後的第一個案子就是打詐專法，你覺得這個專法現在有沒有一些功效？看到這樣的跨國集團，我們還有什麼方法可以做？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的打詐四法是有產生功效，但是對這個功效我跟委員還有國人是不會滿意的，因為還是發生了很多的案子，但是我們在趨勢上財損數跟案件數是有下降的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有錯，但是我今天要講的是，院長，你最近有發現嗎？因為銀行很認真，在法令通過後非常的認真，做了很多AI的管理，所以很多小市民的帳戶平常沒人理，突然間可能跟朋友去買個東西，互相轉了個帳，就被警示了，這才是問題。我今天要講的是那些詐騙集團幾百億、幾千億在這邊騙人的，在我們這邊買了幾十億的資產，沒人管，一個小小的市民可能只是跟朋友check一下、分個帳戶，最近就被銀行把他的帳戶給凍結了，這才是我今天的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，有關於……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我知道你有很多話要說，怎麼回事？這麼大的不做，這麼小的每天管這些要幹嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我剛才提到，我們在做這個……我在這邊必須說明一下，我們透過銀行進行管控，絕對會持續來做，但是方法我們會來改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：我贊成要列管，但是我要講的是，我們要做的是大的要好好管，所以我今天要看的是，你看小市民的帳戶嚴格檢視，誤鎖的烏龍非常多，最近主委有在處理。但是詐騙集團這個案子，從它進來臺灣到銀行，我相信它在101還開了公司，我在去年年底有質詢過101，要求他們必須要對承租人進行相關的身家調查，這件事情有沒有做？他們顯然沒有做，101有回復我，他們還有開選商會議、調查董監事資格，才讓它進駐。院長，101是國家的門面，101有公股的代表，101的董事長是官派的。"],["卓院長榮泰：透過這個例子，我想我應該要要求101對內控管理上面，對於承租人必須進一步的了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：是！在我十幾年前當律師的時候，就有人用著101的承租到處詐騙，所以去年年底我提出質詢，要求他們對於承租人要有一定的篩選。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們會要求。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其是詐騙集團用101的門面來詐騙所謂的投資人，看到公司在101一定沒問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要求是應該的，因為101是國家的門面，不能讓它變成詐騙。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，太子集團運用了我們的新南向政策，他們所有人都是拿著柬埔寨的護照進進出出，如入無人之境。現在這種外商、這種資歷，主委，如果你們拿出查小市民的那種AI精神，這些很奇怪的、怪怪的是不是應該KYC、EDD再來做一次全面清查，尤其是對柬埔寨？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們現在對於它在這邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：我講了尤其是對柬埔寨，如果有這些所謂的境外公司來，有這些境外的人來，在我們的銀行體系當中，你做個關懷吧！做個清查吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，他們進來有很多細節沒辦法這邊說明，其實他在這邊開戶，還有這些往來，並不是像現在這個案件已經揭露得這麼明顯，所以我們已經對……"],["黃委員珊珊：我可以理解，因為那個年代沒有這些規範，我現在要說的是，因為知道了，所以我們現在回頭去關懷……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們現在已經針對整個金流詳細查核。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我要說的是小市民都這樣查，這個也認真查一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會一樣認真地查。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得這個部分從現在開始用這個案例來回推，2019、2018透過新南向政策開始進來的東南亞公司，我們可能在銀行端要有一些動作，不管如何，我覺得不能再錯放了。下一題是為什麼這一次美國用這樣的方式？因為他們是用行政上面制裁的方式，要求我們的檢調來配合。主委，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我不禁想到的是……院長，我們想一想，如果今天臺灣發生了同樣的事情，能不能得到國際社會這樣的協助？我們能不能幫民眾追回這些錢？目前有沒有這樣的機制，你可不可以發一個文，美國政府就幫你扣他在美國的財產，目前有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要建立這樣的管道，目前我看是要建立這樣的管道。"],["黃委員珊珊：去年提出所謂的打詐專法，當時其實民眾黨提了案，我們在洗錢防制法裡面希望能夠成立類似金融制裁專案辦公室，也就是類似像恐怖分子反恐的這些動作，因為行政的動作會比司法的動作快，而且如果它已經影響到現在是一種跨國性企業化經營的大型洗錢詐騙，其實是需要政府更快速的金融制裁，就如同美國用愛國者法案，或者是相關的規範，他們財政部直接就可以做行政制裁。這是我上次在提案的時候有提出來，但是你看看我們的法務部怎麼說？沒有必要，不符比例原則，所以我們沒有辦法處理，我們不需要快速金融制裁。院長，從這個案例，我希望你們開始重新思考臺灣在這樣的情況下，我們有沒有能力去處理跨國大型公司企業化運作的詐騙行為？如果可以，我們是不是在法律上應該如何慢慢地去建置這樣的機制？我不希望行政院的回答是沒有必要。"],["卓院長榮泰：在依法有據的前提底下，能夠加強行政作為、加強對這些詐欺集團進一步快速來制裁的話，我願意往這個方向，請法務部或各單位能夠重新思考這個方向。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！至少往前走。如果我們重新想過，如果今天這些事情發生在臺灣，我們明知道那邊有財產，我們要去查封他，我們本身的外交行為本來就很辛苦了，我們自己又不積極、不努力，人家為什麼要幫我們封？一樣的意思，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在高檢署應該有一個跨部會小組來研議這樣的方向，我會請他們也重視委員所建議的內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：是！如果我們可以快速的制裁、可以快速的動作，這些跨國性的大型企業已經是企業化，已經不是用我們的洗錢防制將個人帳戶封鎖的那種方法了，好嗎？","接下來，大家最關心的就是普發現金，其實這是政府的職責。最近大家在討論的是怎麼領，我覺得臺灣人最悲哀的是只有一個目標，叫作不要被騙就好。院長，這樣聽起來很難過啦！臺灣人發現金不是歡天喜地，都在想說怎麼樣不要被騙，政府職責只有一個，即確保錢不會被騙走。院長今年9月說，希望留給國家做更有意義的用途，不用領；又或者是你希望大家去旅遊，還要多吃臺灣豬肉。今天大家都開始領了，您覺得您的立場還是一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得如果能夠在這個時候，用於國內旅遊或是多幫助豬農，在此時此刻，應該是……"],["黃委員珊珊：用在國內消費啦！儘量去協助大家，讓有需要的剛需也好，或者是特別的消費，去增加國內經濟的熱絡。"],["卓院長榮泰：在此刻是需要的，而且也是很好的幫助。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是這次大家吵最兇的，還是讓13歲以上的孩子普發現金進到自己的帳戶，這我沒有什麼意見。我要講的也是今天我非常重視的，我們趁著金融自主，希望孩子們能夠有自己的金融觀念，但是我比較擔心的是對於所有的孩子，其實從小到大沒有教過他怎麼理財、沒有教過他怎麼投資，所以在沒有金融素養的情況下，你給他錢，不趁這個機會做機會教育是很可惜的。","您看一下這個數字，83%的孩子有自己的帳戶；但是65%對於金融服務沒信心；45%每個月是超支的，也就是他錢不夠；23%有被詐騙過；甚至其中18%曾經受損過，從幾百塊到幾十塊。我的孩子也被騙過，現在的孩子沒有被騙過的不多了，第一，網路購物太多；第二，你上去買東西，寄一瓶寶特瓶來就沒了。這種事情很多，我們當成是機會教育，但我要講的是，如果學校沒有教，你要孩子怎麼學？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我主張我們對於AI的知識跟理財的知識，應該把受教育的年齡層往下降。"],["黃委員珊珊：放在學校裡面。第二個，你知道學校沒教的事情，現在孩子怎麼學的嗎？93%是社群媒體，社群媒體是他們學金融財經的唯一管道，占93%！因為他爸爸、媽媽都不懂啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那很難保證他得到的是正確知識。"],["黃委員珊珊：是！我一直跟彭主委說金融素養要進到學校，甚至要從小開始學，知道投資沒有人獲利百分之十幾、二十幾，能獲利百分之十幾、二十幾你還相信，還把你的身家全部拿去賠，給了之後，還將房子拿去抵押貸款的長輩一大堆！好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該建立青年人正確的理財觀念。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得如果你是AI內閣，你要把金融素養放在最基本的，臺灣的投資詐騙這麼興盛不是沒有道理，因為臺灣人善良，臺灣人相信朋友，臺灣人只要有投資會賺錢，聽到股票代號就去買了，然後自己都不研究，也不知道為什麼，我覺得這才是我擔心的。我今天的問題是，兒童、青少年被詐騙的人數已經到一個非常高的數字了，從17歲以下就有三千多人，23歲以下將近兩萬五千人，也就是說兒童、青少年被詐騙的被害人數是逐年上升的，他們相信的大部分在社群媒體上。上一次公股銀行全面抵制非實名制的社群平臺，不在上面上廣告，我覺得這件事情很棒，但是我想問一下主委，這個成果怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：主委說明一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們對於……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們叫他下架，不登他的廣告，現在的效果怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分因為主要我們還是希望透過一個比較完整的金融基礎教育，這還是一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們一直在努力，其實不管走入社區、走入校園，我們都持續在辦理。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們一樣，我們有這麼多銀行，有這麼多可以教育的，他們有這麼多的資源，怎麼樣協助學校、協助金管會、協助教育部把這個部分下放到學校……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這個我們做了很長的時間。"],["黃委員珊珊：不要透過這些社群媒體，下廣告在他們那邊幹嘛？對啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然……主要他們還是一樣，社群媒體有一定的穿透力，但是我們也是持續地透過金融機構，還有所有金融市場的力量，與學校、社區來合作做這件事情，還是持續在做。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後，院長，我希望這應該成為你的重要政策，既然年輕人是我們的未來，現在的問題是，他剛剛講的是被害人，現在少年詐欺犯成長年增率80%。你看這個數字，青少年詐欺犯罪12歲到17歲從一千多人變兩千九百人，然後18到23歲從六千多人變一萬四千人，它是倍數的成長，每一年變成共犯的青少年是倍數的成長，他不是只有沒有金融素養，他甚至成為詐欺的共犯，現在這樣的孩子才是最大的問題，而且很多人是拿著他的帳戶去當人頭戶。院長，我只要求一個，現在長輩的帳戶，我們可以給他警示，有動作的時候要通知家屬，一樣，青少年的帳戶是不是應該做同樣的處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。我會請現在行政院即將進一步強化的打詐指揮中心，還有林明昕政委所主持的打詐業務，重視這個數字，也分析它的內容，我們來針對問題做出解決的方法。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後我要講的是，這個數字我問金管會，他跟我說他沒有統計。院長，沒有統計就不會有統治，我希望統計很重要、分析很重要，好嗎？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。我們會來……"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第5號林楚茵委員改書面，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林楚茵書面質詢：","一、依《銀行法》第72條之2規定，銀行住宅建築及企業建築放款總額，除以存款總餘額加金融債券發售額之比例，不得超過百分之三十。此條係於民國89年（西元2000年）11月修正通過迄今，二十五年來從未滾動檢討修正。然而，台灣經濟結構、房地產市場型態與民眾購屋需求早已大幅改變，現行法定比例顯與實際市場情況脫節。","當前台灣面臨高房價與資金集中於不動產市場的結構性問題，主管機關以「放寬銀行法額度採計定義」作為調整手段，實則並未真正鬆綁房貸成數或影響放款條件。實務上，多屋族貸款仍受信用管制與選擇性信用措施限制，銀行放款意願及核貸條件並未明顯寬鬆，短期內能釋出的資金量有限，對房市價量影響亦極為有限。","另就中央銀行放款集中度而言，其係指銀行總放款中，用於不動產放款（包括購置住宅、房屋修繕、建築貸款等）的比例。此項比例之控管目的，固在防止資金過度集中於不動產市場、維持金融穩定；然而，隨著近年國內房市結構、產業投融資需求及金融市場環境的變化，現行標準是否仍具合理性與彈性，亦值得審慎檢討。過度僵化的比例限制，可能導致銀行資金運用彈性受限，亦難以充分反映不同銀行間風險承受能力與市場狀況的差異。","惟制度面上，「百分之三十」的放款上限，乃影響銀行資金運用彈性與房市資金流動性的重要指標。此比例設定於二十餘年前，彼時國內經濟環境、利率結構、住宅供需與銀行放款體系皆與今日迥異，若未滾動檢討，恐致監理規範僵化、抑制金融創新與資金效率運用，亦難以反映市場實際風險。","爰此，請金融監督管理委員會與中央銀行就下列事項提出書面說明：","1.請說明銀行法第72條之2中「百分之三十」放款上限比例之立法原由、當時參考之國際或金融指標為何？另請中央銀行說明現行放款集中度比例、計算原由、當時參考之國際或金融指標為何？","2.目前該兩者（銀行法第72條之2及中央銀行放款集中度）比例是否仍具合理性？主管機關是否曾評估隨經濟成長、利率變化與住宅需求調整而有進行滾動修正之必要？","3.現行採計方式是否可能導致銀行無法靈活運用資金，影響住宅市場正常發展與建築產業資金融通？","4.現行金融機構已有明確之風險管理制度，近來風險管理理論較廿年前立法時更臻完善，相較於規定百分之三十之絕對值或中央銀行放款集中度的控管方式更具理論依據及符合實務和國際標準需求，主管機關應如何修正管控制度，使金融得依各自的風險承受能力調整授信風險，而非百分比監管控制？","二、國民健康署核定之加熱菸產品，已於今年10月17日正式上架販售。根據《菸害防制法》之定義，加熱菸屬於「類菸品」範疇。","惟《入境旅客攜帶行李物品報驗稅放辦法》並無「類菸品」相關規範。又授權財政部公告之《菸酒管理法》第45條規定，及輸入規定463、輸入規定501內容，皆未提及加熱菸可否由旅客攜帶入境。","而依據《菸害防制法》第15條規定，任何人不得製造、輸入、販賣、供應、展示或廣告類菸品。且國健署曾表示，目前國內核可販售之加熱菸產品，尚未於國外通路販售，亦即國人現階段不得自國外購買加熱菸攜帶入境。","對此，民眾對於是否得攜帶加熱菸入境我國，仍有諸多疑義。爰請財政部說明：","1.依據現行法規，旅客得否攜帶加熱菸入境我國？是否檢討修正《入境旅客攜帶行李物品報驗稅放辦法》、《菸酒管理法》及輸入規定463、輸入規定501，將加熱菸明確納入規範？","2.倘民眾攜帶於我國合法購得之加熱菸產品出境自用，是否仍得攜回同一加熱菸產品返國入境？是否考慮建立攜帶合法加熱菸出境時之事前登記制度，以資入境管理？","3.鑒於加熱菸新制上路初期，民眾資訊掌握不一，是否配合衛福部等單位，向民眾提供攜帶加熱菸之通關說明、增設明顯標示或公告明確指引，以免民眾誤觸法令？","以上內容，請相關單位依權責於兩週內提出書面報告並敘明檢討修正時程。"],["主席：報告院會，財政組之質詢已經詢答完畢，謝謝所有財政組相關單位的閣員們備詢，我們休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後，換為教育及文化組之質詢，也請第1位質詢的呂玉玲委員準備。","現在休息。","休息（15時18分）","繼續開會（15時28分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aaec0482048702390885e1af54c489cd62f4f6bdef64fc7eb27bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"14:46:36 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報告委員"},{"start":167.89,"end":182.023,"text":"德意志銀行他說是在2030年我覺得2030年這是五年我覺得還是有一點遠很好 您覺得很遠待會我們現在就來看一下事實上"},{"start":183.164,"end":212.422,"text":"我先講院長其實一邊在聽我相信院長也有一邊在正向的思考啦我先回應一下也許大家的顧慮就是說哎呀有這麼多種的貨幣會不會有些風險新罕布下週呢是確保說要超過市值5000億美元的才來考慮作為戰略的儲備同時安全性上面呢也有一些分散的資料中心或者國家級的儲備方案那相關的這些安全啦等等的其實啊都有解決的方案"},{"start":212.822,"end":229.051,"text":"那您說2030年以前那我要告訴總裁也告訴院長事實上這個需要對台灣來講是特別重要的為什麼在先前我們看到今年2月底央行朱副總到立法院報告的時候就透露過我們的外匯存底有高達92%是美債"},{"start":231.992,"end":256.813,"text":"相對的我們美元走弱台幣對美元升值的話實質購買力就會下降金管會的報告也提到今年1到8月的銀行業就因為台幣升值的影響稅前盈餘本來是這個應該可以到8000億的現在只剩下6000億叫去年同期減少了2000億我想在這裡還是要問一下卓院長我們要防患未然未雨綢繆啊"},{"start":258.254,"end":286.318,"text":"這個總裁說2030年的事情我們可以緩著做但是我待會還有很多的數據那現在美國已經在做了院長您作為行政團隊的大家長我們現在的資產整個產業高度押注在美元而美國現在又在推動多元儲備也就是有數位資產的在那儲備您有沒有什麼樣的想法跟策略或者比如說能不能更加積極正面的考量像比特幣戰略儲備這樣的一個做法"},{"start":287.387,"end":304.566,"text":"美元是今天全世界通行計價的一個基準這個是沒有錯但是我們是不是有92%這個高的數字總總裁再說明一下這是朱副總裁當時透露的事後我們也有澄清沒有到92%是算錯了還是講錯了"},{"start":306.588,"end":326.665,"text":"是他看錯了就算不是92%我們也是高比例的依賴美元當然我們這個比例是比較高物質是比較高非常高所以您的回應就是我們沒問題嗎您能不能再更積極的考量一下比特幣戰略儲備總裁能夠說明正確的數字"},{"start":327.586,"end":348.3,"text":"另外就是對這種新興的創新新創的金融商品我們都應該用開放的態度去看它比特幣如果它能夠在交易安全數位安全能夠比現在更有把握的話我認為我們可以用另外更開放的態度來看比特幣同時台灣也應該有自己的一套機制"},{"start":348.8,"end":363.015,"text":"太好了謝謝院長所以能不能在年底以前再提供一份詳細而且要正反並成不要只是相對負面的報告比特幣戰略儲備或數位資產戰略儲備的報告給社會大眾了解一下院長可不可以拜託您在這裡就正面的承諾"},{"start":365.137,"end":385.873,"text":"我想要就说年底之前给一文报告我们可以太好了谢谢杨总裁给您跟院长都按一个赞那主动购入的这个虚拟资产储备还需要一些报告跟研究的时间但是有一件事情我也跟院长分享是现在就可以做的我们可以先持有比特币"},{"start":386.133,"end":404.198,"text":"不一定要主動積極的購入這可以之後討論你看一下投影片這是去年幾大持有比特幣國家的這些相關的資訊比特幣其實在這些國家都是透過沒收犯罪而來的其中烏克蘭還有一些是透過於網路的一些募捐"},{"start":404.818,"end":424.632,"text":"那我們台灣這幾年啊2023到2025年呢我們也找了資料也有一些法拍虛擬貨幣的新聞其中您看一下這個2024年的新聞哈新聞上寫有4.5億的時候啊比特幣一顆是7萬美元現在比特幣一顆是11萬美元啊當時如果這批比特幣或者現在沒有拍賣的話"},{"start":425.573,"end":445.609,"text":"這其實對我們國庫的潛藏的這些所謂的潛力很可能已經超過6億多那本席非常清楚了解相關的市場任何的資產都不可能永遠的向上他一定有可能有回落的時候但是我也希望整體來講大家可以上網了解一下"},{"start":446.609,"end":471.944,"text":"這樣子的一個資產為什麼各國要先趕快部署相關的法令並且早一點的來持有其實也就是因為未來很可能是我們在資產依賴上對於其他的國家貨幣主權過度依賴上的一個很好的對沖啊尤其啊我們現在又非常大規模的去持有美元計價的資產但是啊川普啊"},{"start":472.304,"end":500.703,"text":"在11月6號的時候正式發布美國自己要成為比特幣的超級大國啊所以我想請教一下卓院長我們現在就算不能立刻把它納入我們能不能退一步去討論一下向其他國家學習沒收而來不需要返還的這些虛擬貨幣我們能不能持續的持有有國家級的解決方案處理安全性的問題這一點您可以不用太擔心我想請教一下有沒有機會來討論"},{"start":502.664,"end":525.521,"text":"我相信美國川普總統的任何一個重大的政策決定不僅影響到國內對國際上也會產生相當大的影響像川普總統對比特幣這種比較開放而且直接的態度會影響到比特幣在各國之間或許未來的流通或許未來的保值等等那這個部分央行應該有進入密切的一個觀察"},{"start":526.161,"end":544.145,"text":"好謝謝所以實際上希望能夠到現在能不能請院長來承諾一下我們能不能先至少盤點一下目前持有的數量說不定我們持有的還真不少剛剛我們看到300萬美金的等值的比特幣就可以排到世界前十了"},{"start":544.665,"end":563.74,"text":"這是我們中華民國對數位經濟的準備也是我們跟美國站在同一隊的決心院長能不能指示相關部會年底前調查一下給大家一個答案現在我們持有的比特幣的數量到底是多少我要先了解我們有沒有辦法實際上掌握國內的這些狀況"},{"start":564.58,"end":576.365,"text":"我講的是這個我們司法體系沒收而來的我們講的是沒收的不是台灣國內持有的我們的政府單位沒收在國庫裡面的比特幣可以嗎調查一下如果是已經"},{"start":578.015,"end":601.736,"text":"合法依法沒收而來的過去都要拍賣啦依法持有的政府依法持有的盤點一下好不好這邊我們應該有資料我認為盤點是必要我可以這樣說年底前給大家一個答案討論完了虛擬資產的價值也想跟院長討論一下虛擬資產的法制面因為我們要安全要安心請教一下這個金管會主委謝謝"},{"start":603.157,"end":627.915,"text":"那我也要跟院長表達一下金管會央行在近期對於這個數位資產的開放性我們絕對是予以肯定的那金管會有非常多同仁給了很多的幫助那關於VASP的專法其實金管會是一個正面的態度但是6月27號報院以後到現在還是沒有送到立法院各界都非常的關心已經到五個月了還沒有送來我們之前詢問"},{"start":628.996,"end":657.809,"text":"其實各個部會的回答呢稍微有點模糊現在美國的GENIUS法案CLARITY的法案日本官方的JPYC穩定幣都要出來了香港新加坡在法制也已經完善了我們什麼時候為什麼會拖這麼久還沒有送過來有沒有一個相關的時間的預期讓業者可以好準備是跟委員報告一下其實我們6月27要送進來因為這個其實是一個新的法案我們政委已經審過兩次因為很多要"},{"start":659.113,"end":678.652,"text":"要送回我們這邊跟各界再溝通我們去送回去對不起我很佩服您可是您可不可以我時間有限能告訴我這個會期是這個會期下個會期也沒有關係因為業者需要時間跟心理的準備啊有沒有一個預期啊院長我看您笑而不答大家可能在等您指示啊是沒有指示還是有沒有預期"},{"start":680.456,"end":692.608,"text":"进入到一个数位的虚拟货币时代我们初初进入到这个世界里面来我觉得一切的建制我们要学习更周延的一些规范所以尽管会谨慎是对的"},{"start":694.943,"end":723.261,"text":"好啦我想我要讓讓大家了解一下這個事情真的是這個遺數不遺詞啊為什麼啊事實上啊因為我們的Vespa專法如果通過了還有8個執法要訂定啊裡面的穩定幣更是非常的重要不知道院長有沒有看過這張圖啊左邊是實體經濟各國的貨幣非常的豐富但是在右邊的虛擬經濟啊全球穩定幣美元的占比高達近九成啊"},{"start":723.581,"end":744.353,"text":"已經幾乎是壟斷性的地位了這會影響到貨幣的主權喔所以為什麼全世界各個國家甚至歐盟啊積極的要推出他們的國家穩定幣就在這裡所以這不是說我要很審慎然後沒有消息喔我們看到日本歐盟都非常非常的清楚啊所以這一點我就想請教一下"},{"start":744.893,"end":768.593,"text":"我們現在卓院長您說哎呀這個我們要做亞洲資產中心啊我先講我並沒有反對或支持特定處理穩定幣的方式但是我想要確認一下到底什麼時候因為Fesb的法案裡面就有一個章節是穩定幣嘛那現在各國都已經都已經上線了我們現在還在審慎我理解審慎但是院長有沒有預期這個會期下個會期"},{"start":772.176,"end":787.705,"text":"穩定幣是我們進入到一個虛擬世界的一個途徑是這個我都認同所以我們現在需要時間我們現在已經不僅是虛擬我們在穩定幣這個議題上面我們也已經進入到討論所以這個部分我們討論很久我現在要問的是時間院長不好意思"},{"start":788.991,"end":803.731,"text":"有沒有時間 跟委員報告一下剛剛那個我們送進行政院我們現在已經把所有準備工作應該很快會來開會剛剛那個執法部分我們不會等母法這邊才做我們現在已經全力在推動這些執法的立法好 謝謝主委我想我們一起來努力"},{"start":804.352,"end":826.839,"text":"那接下來雖然還有點時間我就希望能夠帶VASP的這個相關的新創業者要說說話因為創新AI軟體數位金融這都是我們的下一波的力量那我想請教一下其實目前金管會這個相關的規範其實有提到金融機構德金金管會的規定兼營虛擬資產的業務"},{"start":828.82,"end":855.349,"text":"其不僅能託管加密貨幣推出加密交易的服務甚至還能優先發行穩定幣如此一來有很多的VASP的業者辛辛苦苦的做了各種的法尊做了很多的創新然後又符合安全結果金融機構很可能只需要金管會點個頭就可以兼營甚至優先發行這會不會有一種太獨厚傳統機構我沒有要替任何一個人講話但是我希望給各位看一下這個圖"},{"start":856.509,"end":879.862,"text":"這是接下來的數位經濟是大家一起合作儘管會做管理也不要忘記發展銀行有信用跟穩定但VASP業者其實有很好的技術跟創新有沒有可能這個未來專法上路的時候金融機構兼營沒有問題但是可不可以多鼓勵一些金融機構和VASP既有的這八家九家的業者"},{"start":880.262,"end":908.875,"text":"能夠有更多技術合作啊投融資啊或者是限度開放更多的創新的商品甚至是一些其他的措施能夠讓整體的產業一起來發展這個部分主委可不可以簡要做個答覆是 謝謝委員我想剛才委員描繪就是未來的方向因為其實我們VASP開始呢假設我們專法通過它開始針對機構做全面性的納管我上次也講過它是一個準金融機構那過去剛才那個委員也提到說為什麼我們穩定必要"},{"start":909.415,"end":933.923,"text":"先由金融機構來發我想不管從法尊還有內控上面這不可諱言我們金融機構還是遠征於現在Vespa所以未來這兩個合作是必然的這個金三角還是要存在最後希望院長經過我們這樣的一個互動你應該理解到我們要捍衛國家主權數位主權 金融主權不能只是喊我們相關的法令要早一點推出導入我們人工智慧時代的好 謝謝葛獨君"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":54,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請行政院卓院長以及央行楊總裁。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、中央銀行備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長好。剛剛很高興你提到了AI，還有軟體發展的方向，也謝謝行政院在8月28號把AI基本法草案送進來，AI軟體很顯然一定就是數位金融跟虛擬世界的發展，未來可能有非常多新的業態會出現，也希望行政院可以一起來討論。","央行在今年3月份出了一份關於比特幣作為央行準備資產或國家戰略儲備的分析報告，在這個報告裡面，明顯可以看出來在今年3月，央行對於比特幣戰略儲備是持相對負面的態度，比如國際間還沒有國家將比特幣納入數位資產的準備，或者缺乏安全性和流動性等。不過，事實上在幾個月後，全世界的發展就已經和這份報告截然不同。我們先看一下這張投影片，這是美國各州比特幣戰略儲備的狀況，其中新罕布夏州、亞利桑那州、德州都已經在5、6月通過法案，正在進行中的和提議的更有高達18州，川普總統也很明確宣示了比特幣戰略儲備方向。我們再看一下央行所在意的安全性、流動性問題，我也幫你整理了，德意志銀行在10月18號明確做出了分析及研究報告，表示比特幣的戰略性配置會成為現代金融安全的新基石，有可能變成像二十世紀的黃金，兩種資產都極有可能在2030年以前出現在各國央行的資產負債表。在這裡我要強調的是兩種，即黃金跟比特幣、數位貨幣或數位資產並不是互相排斥，它是可以共融的，事實上，現在比特幣的波動已經創歷史新低。本席兩週前有就這個議題詢問過央行的朱副總裁，當時朱副總裁表示會持續研議、評估。在此想請教楊總裁，你看到這幾個月世界的轉變，央行對於所謂虛擬資產的戰略儲備，還是像過去一樣是相對負面、反對的嗎？你們研究評估的怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，報告委員，德意志銀行說是2030年，離2030年還有5年，我覺得還是有一點遠，有一點遠啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，你覺得很遠，我們現在就來看一下，我想院長一邊在聽，相信也一邊在正向思考。我先回應一下大家的顧慮，也許大家會認為有這麼多種貨幣，會不會有風險？新罕布夏州是確保要超過市值5,000億美元的才考慮作為戰略的儲備，同時安全性上面也有一些分散的資料中心或者國家級的儲備方案，相關的安全等等其實都有解決的方案。您說2030年以前，那我要告訴總裁，也告訴院長，事實上這個需要對臺灣來講是特別重要的，為什麼？先前我們看到，今年2月底央行朱副總裁到立法院報告的時候就透露過，我們的外匯存底有高達92%是美債，相對的美元走弱、臺幣兌美元升值的話，實質購買力就會下降。金管會的報告也提到，今年1到8月銀行業就因為臺幣升值的影響，稅前盈餘本來應該是可以到8,000億的，現在只剩下6,000億，較去年同期減少了2,000億。","我想在這裡還是要問一下卓院長，我們要防患未然、未雨綢繆啊！總裁說2030年的事情可以緩著做，但是我待會兒還有很多的數據啦！那現在美國已經在做啦！院長，您作為行政團隊的大家長，我們現在整個產業的資產高度押注在美元，而美國現在又在推動多元儲備，也就是有數位資產的戰略儲備，你有沒有什麼樣的想法跟策略？或者比如說能不能有更加積極、正面的考量，像比特幣戰略儲備這樣的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：美元是今天全世界通行計價的一個基準，這個是沒有錯，但是我們是不是有92%這麼高的數字，請總裁再說明一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：這是朱副總裁當時透露的！"],["楊總裁金龍：事後我們有澄清，沒有到92%。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以數字搞錯了？是算錯了還是講錯了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是他看錯了、他看錯了。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，就算不是92%，我們也是高比例的依賴美元，這一點同意吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們這比例是比較高。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！不只是比較高，非常高啦！好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：還好、還好。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，所以您的回應就是我們沒問題嗎？您能不能再更積極的考量一下比特幣戰略儲備？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字希望總裁能夠說明正確的數字，另外就是對於這種新興、創新、新創的金融商品，我們都應該用開放的態度去看它。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，所以希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果比特幣在交易安全、數位安全能夠比現在更有把握的話，我認為我們會用另外更開放的態度來看待，同時臺灣也應該有自己的一套機制。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝院長，所以能不能在年底以前再提供一份詳細，而且要正反併陳，不要只是相對負面的報告，把比特幣戰略儲備或數位資產戰略儲備的報告給社會大眾了解一下？院長，可不可以拜託您在這裡就正面的承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：請總裁說明一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想年底之前給一份報告，我們可以、我們可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝楊總裁，給您跟院長都按一個讚啦！主動購入的虛擬資產儲備還需要一些報告跟研究的時間，但是有一件事情我也跟院長分享，是現在就可以做的，我們可以先持有比特幣，不一定要主動積極的購入，這可以之後討論。您看一下投影片，這是去年幾大持有比特幣國家的相關資訊，比特幣其實在這些國家都是透過沒收犯罪而來的，其中烏克蘭還有一些是透過網路的募捐。我們也找了資料，臺灣2023到2025年有一些法拍虛擬貨幣的新聞，其中您看一下2024年的新聞，新聞上寫4.5億的時候，比特幣一顆是7萬美元，現在比特幣一顆是11萬美元。當時如果這一批比特幣沒有拍賣的話，其實我們國庫潛藏的所謂潛力，很可能已經超過六億多。","本席非常清楚了解，相關的市場、任何的資產都不可能永遠向上，它一定有可能有回落的時候，但是我也希望整體來講，大家可以上網了解一下這樣的資產，為什麼各國要先趕快部署相關的法令，並且早一點持有？其實也就是因為未來很可能是我們在資產上，對於其他國家貨幣主權過度依賴一個很好的對沖，尤其我們現在又非常大規模持有美元計價的資產。但是川普在11月6號正式發布，美國自己要成為比特幣的超級大國，所以我想請教一下卓院長，我們現在就算不能立刻把它納入，我們能不能退一步去討論一下向其他國家學習，沒收而來不需要返還的這些虛擬貨幣，我們能不能持續的持有？有國家級的解決方案處理安全性的問題，這一點您可以不用太擔心，我想請教一下，有沒有機會來討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信美國川普總統任何一個重大的政策決定不僅影響到國內，對國際上也會產生相當大的影響。像川普總統對比特幣這種比較開放而且直接的態度，會影響到比特幣在各國之間或許未來的流通或未來的保值等等，就這個部分，央行應該有進入密切的觀察。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。所以實際上希望能夠到現在……能不能請院長承諾一下，我們能不能先至少盤點一下目前持有的數量？說不定我們持有的還真不少。剛剛我們看到持有300萬美金等值的比特幣，就可以排到世界前十了，這是中華民國對於數位經濟的準備，也是我們跟美國站在同一隊的決心。院長，能不能指示相關部會年底前調查一下，給大家一個答案，就是現在我們持有比特幣的數量到底是多少？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要先了解我們有沒有辦法實際上掌握國內的狀況。"],["葛委員如鈞：我講的是司法體系沒收而來的，我講的是沒收的，不是臺灣國內持有的，就是政府單位沒收在國庫裡面的比特幣，可以嗎？調查一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是已經合法、依法沒收而來的，依法……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒收、合法持有、不用還的，過去都要拍賣，政府依法持有的，盤點一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這裡面我們應該有資料，我認為盤點是必要的，我可以這樣做。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，年底前給大家一個答案。","討論完了虛擬資產的價值，也想跟院長討論一下虛擬資產的法制面，因為我們要安全，也要安心。請教一下金管會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請金管會備詢。"],["葛委員如鈞：我也要跟院長表達一下，金管會、央行在近期對於數位資產的開放性，我們絕對是予以肯定的。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：金管會也有非常多同仁給了很多的幫助。關於VASP的專法，其實金管會是一個正面的態度，但是6月27號報院以後，到現在還是沒有送到立法院，各界都非常地關心，已經5個月了，還沒有送來，我們之前詢問了，其實各個部會的回答稍微有點模糊。現在除了美國的GENIUS法案、CLARITY法案，日本官方的JPYC穩定幣都要出來了，香港、新加坡在法制上也已經完善了，我們什麼時候……為什麼會拖這麼久還沒有送過來？有沒有一個相關的時間的預期，讓業者可以好有所準備？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，我們6月27號送進來，這其實是一個新的法案，我們政委已經審過兩次，因為很多要送回我們這邊跟各界再溝通，我們已經送回去……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我很佩服您，可是您可不可以……我時間有限，能告訴我這個會期是這個會期，就算是下個會期也沒有關係，因為業者需要時間跟心理的準備，有沒有一個預期？院長，我看您笑而不答，大家可能在等您指示，是沒有指示，還是有沒有預期？"],["卓院長榮泰：進入到數位的虛擬貨幣時代，我們初進入到這個世界裡面來，對於一切的建置，我覺得我們要學習更周延的規範……"],["葛委員如鈞：那就是這個會期不會進來囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以金管會謹慎是對的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，我想我要讓大家了解一下，這個事情真的是宜速不宜遲，為什麼？事實上，因為我們的VASP專法如果通過了，還有8個子法要訂定，裡面的穩定幣更是非常地重要。不知道院長有沒有看過這張圖，左邊是實體經濟，各國的貨幣非常地豐富；但是在右邊的虛擬經濟，全球穩定幣美元的占比高達近九成，已經幾乎是壟斷性的地位了，這會影響到貨幣的主權，為什麼全世界各個國家、甚至歐盟積極地要推出他們國家的穩定幣，原因就在這裡，所以這不是說「我要很審慎」，然後沒有消息，我們看到日本、歐盟都非常、非常地清楚。就這一點我就想請教一下，現在卓院長說我們要做亞洲資產中心，我先講，我並沒有反對或支持特定處理穩定幣的方式，但是我想要確認一下，到底什麼時候……因為VASP的法案裡面就有一個章節是穩定幣……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在各國都已經都已經上線了，我們現在還在「審慎」。我理解審慎，但是院長有沒有預期這個會期或下個會期？"],["卓院長榮泰：穩定幣是我們進入到虛擬世界的一個途徑……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，這個我都認同……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們已經……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，我們需要時間。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在已經不僅在虛擬世界，在穩定幣這個議題上面也已經進入到討論，所以這個部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們討論很久，我現在要問的是時間。院長，不好意思，有沒有時間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，剛剛那個草案我們送進行政院，我們現在已經把所有準備工作……應該很快會來開會。剛剛那個子法部分，我們不會等母法完成才做，我們現在已經全力在推動這些子法的立法。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝主委，我想我們一起來努力。","接下來還有一點時間，我希望能夠代VASP相關的新創業者說說話，因為創新AI軟體、數位金融都是我們下一波的力量。我想請教一下，目前金管會相關的規範其實有提到金融機構得經金管會的許可兼營虛擬資產的業務，其不僅能託管加密貨幣、推出加密交易的服務，甚至還能優先發行穩定幣，如此一來，有很多的VASP業者辛辛苦苦做了各種的法遵，做了很多的創新，然後又符合安全，結果金融機構很可能只需要金管會點個頭就可以兼營甚至優先發行，這樣會不會太獨厚傳統機構？我沒有要替任何一個人講話，但是我希望給各位看一下這個圖。接下來的數位經濟是要大家一起合作，金管會做管理，也不要忘記發展，銀行有信用跟穩定，但VASP業者其實有很好的技術跟創新，有沒有可能在未來專法上路的時候，金融機構要兼營沒有問題？但是可不可以多鼓勵一些金融機構和VASP既有的這八、九家業者能夠有更多技術合作、投融資或者是限度開放更多創新的商品，甚至是一些其他的措施，能夠讓整體的產業一起來發展？對這個部分主委可不可以簡要答復？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，我想剛剛委員所描繪的就是未來的方向，假設我們的專法通過了，然後開始針對機構做全面性的納管，就像我上次講過的，VASP是一個準金融機構，剛剛委員也有提到為什麼穩定幣要先由金融機構來發，我想不管從法遵還有內控來講，不可諱言的，金融機構還是遠勝於現在的VASP，所以未來這兩者合作是必然的。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個金三角還是要存在。","最後，經過我們這樣的互動，院長應該理解我們要捍衛國家主權、數位主權、金融主權不能只是喊一喊，要早一點推出相關的法令，導入人工智慧時代的新生活，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們有具體的計畫跟時程，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。","接下來登記第3位賴惠員委員之質詢改為書面，請行政院以書面答復，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面質詢：","●主題：AI報稅、限貸控房，人民到底升級了還是被升火？","一、前言：AI能不能真正讓人民「有感」？","院長您好，我們現在正在走向一個AI時代。生活中不管是手機、銀行、醫療甚至是公家機關服務，都開始用人工智慧來幫忙。","財政部其實也很早就看見這股趨勢。","2020年起推動「智能稅務服務四年計畫」，強調三大方向：","1.稅務便民服務與資源整合","2.智能稅務服務","3.雲端發票與數位應用","緊接著，又推動「次世代稅務服務雲端平臺建構計畫」，也提出三大願景：","1.優化稅務平台、永續安全","2.導入AI與資料整理更智慧","3.照顧人才、讓職場更友善","這些方向，本席都肯定。政府願意投資數位化，方向沒有錯。","但是，科技做得再漂亮，如果人民覺得麻煩、長輩覺得看不懂、公務員覺得更累，那就不是智慧服務，而是高科技的負擔。","今天本席想請院長說明三件事情：","1.兩項計畫，到底有沒有讓人民真的更方便？","2.有沒有讓基層稅務同仁工作更順、更輕鬆？","3.我們是否真正達到「科技服務人民、而不是人民服務科技」？","二、檢視現況：做得好，也還有需要更貼近民意的地方","院長，本席先肯定成果。","這四年來，確實看到很多進步：","1.報稅越來越自動化，操作介面更友善","2.雲端發票普及，資料即時整合","3.稅務大數據分析幫助風險管理、防逃漏稅","以上這些都是好的。","可是也有民眾反映、我也收到地方辦公室很多陳情：","第一，使用體驗還不夠穩定：","本席來自台南，那個地方是農業大縣，每年五月報稅尖峰，還是有人說塞車、卡頓。","再來，本席的故鄉長輩很多，尤其又是年紀長的長輩，他們會說：","「我不是不想用電腦，是看不懂、按錯就跳掉，最後還是只好去國稅局排隊。」","試想，智慧報稅如果變成「年輕人方便、老人家更困難」，那真的不是我們樂見的結果。","第二，資料整合還不夠到位：","不同稅目，像綜所稅、營所稅、地價稅，還是有人遇到重複上傳、重複資料問題。民眾最怕的是什麼？","「我明明已經上傳了，為什麼系統又叫我上傳一次？」","（這就是典型系統之間的「沒有說好」。）","第三，AI偏重內部分析，對民眾的互動不夠：","智慧客服目前回覆常常很制式：「請查閱XX」「本功能尚未提供」","遇到這種狀況時，民眾就說：","「跟機器講話一樣，越問越火大。」","科技不是冷冰冰，是要減少挫折感、不是增加無力感，所以我在這裡想請問院長：","面對這三個問題，財政部有沒有具體改善計劃？","可否三個月內提供改善與時程報告給本席辦公室？","三、「次世代稅務」不能只是更新系統，而是更新思維","現在我們要進入「次世代稅務服務」。","本席想強調：","新時代的稅務，不是系統升級而已，是服務升級。","本席在此提出三個具體方向：","1.做到真正的「一站式報稅」","一次登入、全部完成。","不要再讓民眾跳來跳去、切來切去、重複輸入資料。","今天訂餐平台做得到、銀行也做到了，政府應該也可以做到。","2.AI客服要有溫度、有耐心、更貼心","AI不是只有查稅務資料，它應該是助手。","比方說：","長者語音導引、視障者語音讀取、手把手導航式報稅","「讓AI可以講人話、會聽人話、幫忙的人更多、不是排除的人更多。」","3.雲端平台安全透明","政府資料要上雲，人民最在意就是：","我的資料會不會外洩？誰可以看？用來幹嘛？","本席建議：","1.定期公布資安檢測結果","2.建立資料使用透明度報告","3.讓人民知道「政府守得牢」。","4.有安全、有透明，民眾才敢用。","四、結語：科技要讓生活變簡單，而不是更有壓力","院長，我們肯定財政部這幾年的努力，但人民真正要的不是「數位化速度」，而是「數位化感受」。不是科技越高越好，是服務越暖越好。","因此本席要求財政部：","1.推動期間完成整合性報稅入口","2.導入語音互動與自然語言AI客服，照顧年長與弱勢","3.建立雲端資訊安全透明報告制度","4.讓智慧稅務成為：","便民、安全、永續、有溫度的，不是冷冰冰，而是貼近人民。","不是只聽得懂電腦語言，而是聽得懂人心。","謝謝院長。","接下來本席有關居住正義的部分請教院長：","選擇性信用管制對民眾的影響","──通膨壓力下，央行政策是否真的站在人民這邊？","院長您好，最近常聽到央行說：「台灣通膨相對穩定、核心CPI可控。」","這當然是從宏觀面、從指標面來看，但人民的生活不是用數據在過日子。","外食、租金、教育費、油電費……等等，這些日常生活的基礎開銷，樣樣漲、天天漲。","尤其又以外食族、租屋族、小家庭、中產階級，那種叫做「每天吃飯就心痛」的壓力，對人民來說是真的有很深的感觸。","我們不能只是看統計圖表說「通膨還好」。","因為人民正在面對的是體感通膨，而不是教科書上的通膨。","現在一碗蚵仔麵線多少錢？便當多少？早餐夾蛋加十元至十五元不等，飲料一杯都40起跳、手搖飲料更是上看75起跳，房租一坪比一坪貴、連校園學費都上調。","當我們走進便利商店、夜市、市場，人民真的會覺得：","台灣正在經歷一場「完美風暴式」的生活通膨，院長，民眾真的在苦撐。所以我想請問您：","央行是否有把這種「體感通膨」視為政策指標，還是只有盯著數字、卻忽略了民眾的生活溫度？","央行的政策是否有在保護中產與受薪家庭？","當民眾感受到通膨，而央行一面說CPI穩定，又透過信用管制讓購屋壓力更大時，很多人會問：「央行到底在防泡沫？還是在讓有心買房的家庭更買不起？」","特別是首購族、換屋族。","他們真的不是將買來的房子用來炒房，是為了居住而購買，但是因為央行「選擇性信用管制」，結果怎麼樣？","對於首購族而言：貸不到足額→房子看得到、買不起","對於換屋族而言：舊屋賣掉、新屋貸款縮水→家庭卡在中間、上不了車也下不了車","院長人民真的很焦慮。","真實案例：不是炒房，是被政策逼到走投無路","本席來講一個真實案例：","本席收到一個陳情案，台南一位醫師家庭三年前買預售屋3,800萬，在當時完全不算豪宅，結果交屋時銀行鑑價4,200萬→變豪宅，造成貸款從預期70%，變得只剩30%，而且還是「契約價」的30%，就是說只有1,140萬，資金缺口直接變1,500多萬。在這個案例中，這不是富豪、不是炒房族，是努力工作、繳稅、有家庭、有小孩的醫師換屋家庭。","請問院長，這樣的政策，到底是打炒房，還是打生活、打中產、打誠實納稅的人？","院長，請問央行不能告訴民眾：「我沒有鎖房價，只是你剛好倒楣卡到。」因為那就是制度的問題。","院長人民希望的是：穩房市不是懲罰自住者，而是抑制投機者。","具體要求與檢討時程","選擇性信用管制","本席要求央行：","1.時程要求1個月內完成檢討報告，年底前提出具體修正方案、跨部會協調架構、法規方向","2.豪宅門檻過時，請合理調整，這套門檻是十多年前的物價、十多年前的房市想法。現在建材、工資、土地、利率全部不同了，一套過時的標準，在今天只會變成壓力來源。","本席建議調整如下：","地區　　　現行　　 建議","台北市　　7,000萬　9,000萬","新北市　　6,000萬　7,500萬","其他地區　4,000萬　5,500萬","這不是放寬炒房、是讓正常家庭不被當成豪宅族。","接下來本席要就「房屋稅2.0」的政策請教院長","本席要談的，是很多民眾熱烈討論的「房屋稅2.0」。","本席了解，這個政策名字聽起來就很厲害，有點像手機升級一樣，從1.0升到2.0，進化升級版的概念。","不過，升級完之後，到底是「更順暢」，還是「更卡卡」？本席在此要好好請教執政團隊了。","一、這次政府說：「讓多屋的人多繳一點，只有一間自住房的人少繳一點。」","講起來很漂亮，目的也對。","因為民眾都希望「讓房子回歸居住，不是拿來炒的」。","問題是，政策設計再漂亮，執行如果卡關、民眾如果搞不清楚，那就會變成「本意很好、結果很亂」。","二、「全國歸戶」聽起來公平，其實很多人霧煞煞","以前是「地方歸地方」，你在台北有房、台中也有房，分開算。","現在變成「全國一起算」，例如：你在台北2間、台中1間、嘉義再1間，加起來就算「多屋族」。","乍聽之下很合理，對吧？","但本席想請教財政部：","1.你們的系統準備好了嗎？","2.國的資料真的能互通嗎？","3.有沒有民眾被誤算成「多屋族」，稅單拿到快昏倒？","本席有接到選民陳情說：「我只是在台北工作，偶爾假日返鄉回台南的房子，那間房沒出租僅僅是自用，結果稅率一跳跳好幾倍！」","請問部長，這算不算「被升級」？還是被誤傷？","三、稅率真的讓「有房的怕、沒房的笑」嗎？","從政策面來看數字：","自住一戶的降到1%，非自住房最高可以到4.8%，出租的如果有申報、符合租金標準，也有優惠。","這樣聽起來挺公平，但現實上很多人會問：","「我那間房子給小孩住，戶籍沒遷過去，這樣算自住還是非自住？」「還是說把全家戶口全部搬過去？」","這種事情如果沒講清楚、沒配套，民眾會覺得自己被整。","還有有關「申報出租」的政策：","說是要鼓勵大家釋出空屋，可是有些房東怕麻煩、怕報稅，最後寧願放空。這樣一來，政策目標「讓房子流通起來」反而被打折。","四、本席最擔心的，是地方政府跟得上嗎？","房屋稅是地方稅，這次制度改這麼多，「全國歸戶」、「差別稅率」、「租屋優惠」……等等。","請問財政部：","1.地方政府的系統、作業、資料比對，都準備好了嗎？","2.有沒有縣市還沒修自治條例？","3.到時候課稅時間到、地方還沒準備好，要不要先開罰民眾？","4.地方稅務局的第一線人員，面對這些新規定，有沒有受過訓練？","民眾來問：「為什麼我不是自住？」結果承辦人自己也要翻手冊查。","這樣搞下去，基層公務員會崩潰、民眾也會更火大。","五、「房屋稅 2.0」到底能不能讓空屋變成住的家？","政策說：要讓多屋族覺得持有成本高一點，乾脆拿出來出租。","那我想問：","1.現在有沒有資料顯示，空屋真的變少了？","2.出租市場有增加房源嗎？","3.出租市場會不會因為政策的關係，反而反過來，大家乾脆放著不動，反正稅多一點算了？","有些建商說：「我們持有餘屋，政策給兩年優惠期。」","我想問，兩年夠嗎？","若市場不好，賣不出去，是不是又被當成「投機客」來課重稅？","這樣反而會讓建商更不敢開案，市場更冷。","六、我們常常說「房子是拿來住的，不是拿來炒的」。","沒錯，這是共識，但是本席也想提醒財政部，不是每個多屋的人都是壞人。","有些是繼承的老屋、有些是兄弟姐妹共有、有些是父母留給孩子的，這些人可能並不富有，只是名下多一間古厝老宅，結果一刀切就被列入「多屋族」。","政策要「打炒房」，沒問題；但不能「誤打老實人」。","七、還有一個現實問題：資訊宣導夠不夠？","本席有看到財政部有關房屋稅2.0的網站，財政部很用心，有專門說明房屋稅2.0的動畫，坦白講……挺可愛的，但也有點「太官方」。","一般民眾看不太懂，財政部是不是應該拍幾支「真的生活化」的宣導短片？像：「阿嬤問孫子為什麼房屋稅變高」、「房東申報懶人包」之類的？要講人話，民眾才聽得懂。","八、本席有幾點具體建議：","1.資料整合要快、要準、要安全，不要出現誤算誤課。","2.自住條件再簡化一點，不要讓戶籍遷來遷去變成一種考驗。","3.鼓勵出租的獎勵再強一點，不然大家怕麻煩不敢報。","4.中央要與地方溝通，地方政府要有彈性，不是每個縣市都一樣，房價、空屋情況都不同。","5.設立追蹤機制，半年、一年公布一次成效，讓大家知道政策是不是真的有效。","九、結語：","本席相信政府推房屋稅2.0的出發點是好的，要讓有房的人多盡點社會責任，讓想住的人有機會住得起，但是本席也要提醒，政策不能只看到數字上的美好，要看到人民生活的感受，並且更貼近人民。反之，如若房屋稅變成一種壓力，而不是讓人安心的制度，那就要立即檢討，並且加快政策的修正。","房子，不是冷冰冰的資產，是每個家庭的根，希望財政部這次推動的「2.0升級」，能真的讓人民覺得：「喔，這次是升級，不是升火！」","謝謝。"],["主席：接下來是今天口頭質詢財政組的最後一位也就是登記第4號的黃珊珊委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aaeba579235809834385e1af54c489cd62b0f292095e346b3242d90c1ed0ab56cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"14:30:32 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包括主義總署來在研擬新的財化法的精神裡面"},{"start":264.656,"end":288.792,"text":"因為那個卓院長如果原來的版本是最好的版本那現在像政府院長他就不必再找這些部會首長來討論提出行政院的版本其實那時候我們是要求希望行政院能夠提版本一併進去討論但是當下這個行政院跟財政部真的沒有提出來院長也許你是"},{"start":290.213,"end":318.158,"text":"或是執政黨的支持者會把現行財化法出現有一些瑕疵難行的地方刻意把它凸顯放大來檢視但是本席要強調的是如果沒有本黨在立法院積極來反映全國多數的民意推動各界正式的財化法修法的急迫性和必要性那我請問院長民進黨"},{"start":320.32,"end":333.258,"text":"執政的行政院會願意主動來回應多數民意提出財化法的修正版本嗎這個委員恐有誤會在去年12月20號大院表決之前等一下可以請莊部長"},{"start":335.322,"end":352.975,"text":"回答在那個表決之前行政院跟各地方以及我們內部經過了多少次的討論當時的狀況我們請鍾部長來回答我認為那個也不必因為我們在財委會裡面有討論過你們要是有提出來到時候可以併進去大家來研商看怎麼做最理想"},{"start":353.996,"end":369.59,"text":"中央跟地方是要合作當初表決之前那一個禮拜因為院裡面發生了一些一些意識上的爭執所以沒有辦法進入到協商行政的立場是通過執政黨黨團要在協商提出但是沒有機會提出"},{"start":371.171,"end":392.257,"text":"就好比普發現金一萬元好了 民進黨立院黨團這個行政院起初也是反對到底到最後風向球又改變這個變成同意甚至於現在連主計總署官員也說隨著普發現金一萬元上路啊 應可以發揮刺激整個內需的一個效果"},{"start":393.378,"end":411.914,"text":"有助於拉抬第四季的民間消費的表現那我請問院長執政黨當初不分青紅皂白扣在野黨的帽子現在反過來趁政策紅利的熱度這是對全民負責的態度嗎我們當初的想法是我們不舉債"},{"start":412.975,"end":431.792,"text":"用稅計剩餘就可以因應這一次的中央政府總預算跟特別預算但是在大院表決的時候卻一再希望行政院能夠補發現金對於行政院不舉債的這個用心完全不被重視所以與其如此行政院就衡量"},{"start":432.893,"end":458.354,"text":"大院所通過的那個特別條例2350億是不足以來補發現金所以我們調整的內容變成2360億所以這個是依照行政院調整之後也用了舉債的方式增加政府舉債的方式才有辦法來因應所以這個部分是我們在公共政策財政這個紀錄上面的一個考量所以是行政院的版本那個卓院長當初"},{"start":460.322,"end":472.393,"text":"在野黨要求普發現金一萬元主要就是因為連續好幾年我們都知道稅收超徵連續四年超徵了一兆八千多億不是超徵是時徵數超過預算數"},{"start":474.079,"end":499.891,"text":"對啊 你確實啊很明顯的是行政院不是不能提財化法修法的版本而是去年卓院長的最好版本的說法本席解讀看起來就像是不願意把二十多年來二十幾年來未修訂的財化法重新客觀來檢討中央地方政府應該要進行財政的改革院長 副秘書長"},{"start":501.414,"end":519.329,"text":"阮昭雄說這個財化法修法版本以和執政黨立院黨團取得一定的共識但草案到立法院後是我獲得立委的認同多數立委的認同是一個很大的一個挑戰那我請問院長"},{"start":520.41,"end":546.608,"text":"行政院這次的財化法修法的版本有沒有獲得多數地方政府的共識這個很重要你剛剛有講那你認為要怎麼樣才能獲得多數立委認同的修法我覺得最重要的是當全國所有的縣市都放在公平的立場上沒有誰最優越也沒有六都直轄市那麼優越最優越"},{"start":547.549,"end":565.742,"text":"而這個縣市全部放在公平的角度上來計算地方的均衡這樣才能得到所有縣市的支持目前我們新的財發法就是往這個方向在做因為今天到這個會期 研會結束只剩兩個半月"},{"start":566.943,"end":584.66,"text":"那院長 財政部莊部長曾說估計啊年底前會送出行政院修法的版本希望立法院能夠在這個會期啊能夠三讀通過那我請問院長您怎麼看我剛剛說過我希望在"},{"start":585.697,"end":600.033,"text":"這個會期就能夠結束之前就能夠通過現在我要看財政部主計總署跟各縣市的財主單位談的結果如果達到一致的話我們會把時程提前或許下禮拜我們就會進行正式的討論我希望齁"},{"start":601.134,"end":616.069,"text":"這個就是要積極啦然後多溝通然後有問題提出來怎麼解決能不能請部長談一下他如何積極溝通是 跟委員說明有關財化法的部分在水平分配的部分財政部已經召開了四次會議"},{"start":617.15,"end":642.804,"text":"那在最近一次也在10月的時候邀請地方政府來開會相關的指標還有權重已經獲得大部分的縣市能有共同的共識而且我們在人口也好土地面積也好在計算上更為細緻更為細緻也就是說人口上我們因為老年人口或幼年人口需要更多的服務以及土地面積裡面要分別土地的種類譬如說農牧用地建築用地林業用地都要有不同的一個權數"},{"start":643.744,"end":671.413,"text":"所以這個部分可以均衡城鄉的一個差距而且這一次修法的目標很明確第一個就是我們的國民的生活品質要能夠更均衡不管他在城市還是鄉村然後垂直的分配要更合理中央跟地方財政都要能夠有合理性還有我們的水平分配要更公平能夠讓各縣市都得到相同的一個支持還有地方自治要更能夠強化我們擴大他們的財政自主但地方自治也要能夠強化"},{"start":672.393,"end":687.734,"text":"還有中央跟地方夥伴關係要更能夠提升我想中央跟地方都是一個夥伴的關係這是我們的一個修法我希望在最短的時間裡面能夠取得就是大家能夠認同接受院長"},{"start":689.055,"end":710.399,"text":"因為明年編列AI新十大建設預算有311億元那你曾說這是未來國家發展的重中之重那8月下旬經濟部長龔部長也接受聯合報的專訪也說明年開始要推動AI新十大建設希望把AI相關的技術導入百工百業讓產業升級轉型"},{"start":713.94,"end":733.734,"text":"就本席了解產業轉型是指國家地區或產業透過整個系統性的調整其產業的結構將傳統或低附加價值的產業轉變為新興或高附加價值的產業的過程那我請問院長"},{"start":736.476,"end":757.738,"text":"產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎既然要導入百工百業你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億能夠一步到位或促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎你的看法呢謝謝委員的支持我們的AI新十大建設"},{"start":759.278,"end":783.424,"text":"大致上分做三個區塊第一個是智慧運用第二個是關鍵技術第三個是數位機盤那明年是一開始第一年的預算我們統合一開始初期當然預算沒有辦法變到那麼多因為很多在計劃過程當中那未來逐年會是適時的需要而增加那我希望明年的310億我們真的是用在讓他能夠順利起步無論是"},{"start":784.264,"end":809.058,"text":"智慧運用或是關鍵技術或是數位機盤這三大部分都能在AI新十大建設的十大項裡面都能夠開始發展我認為這未來20年30年影響台灣在國際關鍵技術上面的尤其是高科技領先地位上面能不能繼續保持這樣的優勢要接軌AI相關的技術百工百業的建制成本你認為我們都準備好了嗎"},{"start":810.256,"end":827.263,"text":"我們現在開始從AI新時代建設來做統合其實我們的科技預算經費當然是更大但有的是原來的計畫在進行當中我們先把它挪一部分在AI新時代建設就啟動一個新時代的科技建設計畫"},{"start":829.044,"end":851.923,"text":"面對美國新聞新關稅的這些政策市場的競爭行政院要推動AI新十大建設人工智慧對於提升產業競爭力有非常大的幫助那我請問院長百工百業導入AI相關技術會不會發生人力排擠的效應"},{"start":853.004,"end":871.758,"text":"會不會反而導致某些產業甚至於人力被淘汰那萬一人力排擠淘汰甚至於產業走向黃昏請問院長政府有沒有想過要到底要怎麼辦我們AI信息他建設的終極目標是希望成立進入到一個全民智慧的生活網"},{"start":872.659,"end":895.134,"text":"那過程當中我們有十大項其中有一項也是AI人才的培育跟資金的投入所以這個都是在整個配套過程當中的我們對於我們如何在現在硬體製造方面的領先我們繼續往軟體讓他能夠有一個登峰的一個企劃這個是AI新時代建設那將來當然會造成一些產業上的轉型跟升級"},{"start":895.774,"end":921.016,"text":"那這個都在我們規劃當中我們會有一些像我們在數月羈盤當中就有一個產業科技均衡的一個項目我希望這個院長這邊你們要做就是要好好的要細密一點的規劃你不要到時候這裡好那結果很多這個百工百業甚至很多人力就沒有辦法去"},{"start":922.817,"end":938.709,"text":"去做他們原來應該要做的我們會協助中小微企業進行它的轉型這個是必要的人力跟科技的轉型數位的轉型都必要我是認為這一點是很重要不要說只顧這裡沒有顧到其他面向結果造成很多問題變成衍生社會的問題產生"},{"start":940.57,"end":951.2,"text":"AI實在有AI的問題那我們會事先做一些防範轉型是必然的過程當中事前一定要好好細密的規劃好不好也請委員能夠支持這樣的一些建設計畫 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（14時30分）大會主席韓院長還有行政院卓院長，以及財政部所有的單位。請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["林委員德福：還有莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩請財政部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長你好。卓院長，我請教，因為媒體報導，財劃法修法的版本正由行政院副院長鄭麗君召集所有部會討論當中，全面盤點一般性補助款、整個計畫型補助款等等。請問院長，行政院針對財劃法修法的版本，是否有預定送進立法院的最後時限？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在行政院所討論的不只是一般性補助款，我們是衡酌原來的財劃法跟現行財劃法對各縣市地方政府造成的影響在哪裡，尤其現行財劃法就地方均衡不夠，所以我們是整個更宏觀地考量。目前包括財政部、主計總處，會擇時間跟地方政府的財主人員再進一步溝通之後，或許下禮拜我們就會在行政院正式討論……"],["林委員德福：好，我是認為……"],["卓院長榮泰：之後就送請大院進行審議。"],["林委員德福：院長，事不宜拖，你認為你們討論以後，最晚哪時候財劃法會送到立法院？"],["卓院長榮泰：我本來的要求是在這個會期之前，我們會儘快地在準備妥當的時候適時提出。我們現在朝越快地準備越好，因為我知道大院裡面也有相關的修法，如果能夠同時或者是相併討論會更為周延。"],["林委員德福：要是沒有什麼期限……請問你認為現階段在事權劃分不明確的情況下，會不會有類似美國政府整個停擺的狀況出現？你認為會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不希望……"],["林委員德福：當然不希望，大家都不希望，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不希望出現這個問題。不過，即使現在財劃法的修法，經過大院審議之後，對明年的中央政府總預算也起不了新的作用，它應該著眼在後年、未來的中央政府總預算跟地方的補助，才能夠應用更新的財劃法之修法。"],["林委員德福：因為在野黨去年推動財劃法修法的時候，有催促行政院版，行政院卻遲遲沒有提出來。本席當時質疑財政部是不是提不出來，還是卓院長要求不提？結果院長卻回答說，現行的版本就是最好的版本。那我請問院長，為什麼在野黨去年推動修法前，你堅持原來的版本是最好的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：我修正一下，我說原來的財劃法是實行起來最有把握的版本。去年12月20號大院在表決的時候，那一個禮拜陷入協調的困難期，因為發生了種種事情，所以行政院的立場沒有辦法透過執政黨黨團在協商當中提出，這是當初的一個遺憾，我們是有準備好版本的。至於內容，我們再經過修正之後，會落實在現在包括財政部、主計總處在研擬的新的財劃法的精神裡面。"],["林委員德福：如果原來的版本是最好的版本，現在鄭副院長就不必再找這些部會首長來討論，提出行政院的版本。其實那時候我們是要求、希望行政院能夠提出版本一併討論，但是當下行政院跟財政部真的沒有提出來。院長，也許你或執政黨的支持者會把現行財劃法出現一些瑕疵、難行的地方刻意凸顯、放大檢視，但是本席要強調的是，如果沒有本黨在立法院積極反映全國多數民意，推動各界正視財劃法修法的急迫性和必要性，我請問院長，民進黨執政的行政院會願意主動回應多數民意，提出財劃法的修正版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個委員恐有誤會。等一下可以請莊部長回答，在去年12月20日大院表決之前，行政院跟各地方以及我們內部經過了多少次的討論，有關當時的狀況，我請莊部長來回答。"],["林委員德福：其實我認為那也不必，因為我們在財委會裡面有討論過，你們要是有提出來，到時候可以併進去，大家來研商，看怎麼做最理想，中央和地方是要合作……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再重複一次，就是當初表決之前那一個禮拜，因為院裡面發生了一些議事上的爭執，所以沒有辦法進入到協商，而行政院的立場是想透過執政黨黨團在協商時提出，但是沒有機會提出。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，就好比普發現金1萬元好了，民進黨立院黨團和行政院起初也是反對到底，到最後風向球又改變了，變成同意，甚至現在連主計總處官員也說，隨著普發現金1萬元上路，應可發揮刺激內需的效果，有助於拉抬第4季民間消費的表現。那我請問院長，執政黨當初不分青紅皂白扣在野黨帽子，現在反過來蹭政策紅利的熱度，這是對全民負責的態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當初的想法是我們不舉債，用歲計賸餘就可以因應這次的中央政府總預算和特別預算，但是在大院表決的時候，卻一再希望行政院能夠普發現金，行政院不舉債的用心完全不被重視。與其如此，行政院就衡量大院所通過的那個特別條例，2,350億是不足以普發現金的，所以我們調整內容，變成2,360億。這是依照行政院調整之後，也用了增加政府舉債的方式，才有辦法來因應，這個部分是我們在公共政策、財政紀律上的考量，所以是行政院的版本。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，當初在野黨要求普發現金1萬元，主要是因為連續好幾年稅收超徵，連續4年超徵了一兆八千多億……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是超徵，是實徵數超過預算數。"],["林委員德福：對啊！確實啊！很明顯的是，行政院不是不能提財劃法修法版本，而是去年卓院長所謂最好版本的說法，本席的解讀是，看起來就像不願意把二十幾年來未修訂的財劃法重新客觀來檢討中央、地方政府應該要進行財政改革。院長，行政院副秘書長阮昭雄說，財劃法修法版本已和執政黨立院黨團取得一定的共識，但草案送到立法院後，是否獲得多數立委的認同，是一個很大的挑戰。那我請問院長，行政院這次財劃法的修法版本有沒有獲得多數地方政府的共識？這個很重要。你剛剛也有講，你認為要怎麼樣才能獲得多數立委的認同？這要怎麼去做？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得最重要的是，當全國所有縣市都放在公平的立場上，沒有誰最優越，也沒有六都直轄市那麼優越或最優越，22個縣市全部放在公平的角度上來計算地方的均衡，這樣才能得到所有縣市的支持。目前我們新的財劃法就是往這個方向在做。"],["林委員德福：院長，因為今天到這個會期延會結束，只剩兩個半月，財政部莊部長曾說估計年底前會送出行政院修法的版本，希望立法院能夠在這個會期三讀通過。我請問院長，您怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過，我希望在這個會期結束之前就能夠通過，現在我要看財政部、主計總處跟各縣市的財主單位談的結果，如果達到一致的話，我們會把時程提前，或許下禮拜我們就會進行正式的討論。"],["林委員德福：我希望這個要積極，然後多溝通，有問題提出來，看怎麼解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：能不能請部長談一下他如何積極溝通？"],["林委員德福：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員說明，有關財劃法在水平分配的部分，財政部已經召開了4次會議，最近一次也在10月邀請地方政府來開會，相關的指標還有權重已經獲得大部分的縣市能有共同的共識，而且我們在人口也好，土地面積也好，在計算上更為細緻。也就是人口上，因為老年人口或幼年人口需要更多的服務，以及土地面積裡面要分別土地的種類，譬如農牧用地、建築用地、林業用地都要有不同的權數，所以這個部分可以均衡城鄉的差距，而且這一次修法的目標很明確，第一個就是國民生活品質要能夠更均衡，不管在城市還是鄉村。另外垂直的分配要更合理，中央跟地方財政都要能夠有合理性。還有我們的水平分配要更公平，能夠讓各縣市都得到相同的支持。還有地方自治要更能夠強化，我們擴大他們的財政自主，但地方自治也要能夠強化。還有中央跟地方的夥伴關係要更能夠提升，我想中央跟地方都是一個夥伴的關係。這是我們的修法目標，我們會朝著這樣的目標來做。"],["林委員德福：我希望在最短的時間能夠取得共識，大家能夠認同、接受。","院長，因為明年編列AI新十大建設預算有311億元，你曾說這是未來國家發展的重中之重，8月下旬經濟部龔部長接受聯合報的專訪，也說明年開始要推動AI新十大建設，希望把AI相關的技術導入百工百業，讓產業升級轉型。就本席了解，產業轉型是指國家、地區或產業透過整個系統性的調整其產業的結構，將傳統或低附加價值的產業，轉變為新興或高附加價值產業的過程。我請問院長，產業轉型或升級是用嘴巴說說的簡單的事嗎？既然要導入百工百業，你認為行政院編列明年的預算311億，能夠一步到位，或促成百工百業轉型或升級成功嗎？院長的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的支持，我們的AI新十大建設大體上分作三個區塊：第一個是智慧運用，第二個是關鍵技術，第三個是數位基磐。明年是一開始、第一年的預算，我們統合，一開始初期，當然預算沒有辦法編到那麼多，因為很多在計畫過程當中，未來逐年會視適時的需要而增加，我希望明年的311億，我們真的是用在讓它能夠順利起步，無論是智慧運用，或是關鍵技術，或是數位基磐，這三大部分都能夠在AI新十大建設的十大項裡面開始發展。我認為這未來二十年、三十年影響臺灣在國際關鍵技術，尤其是高科技領先地位上面能不能繼續保持這樣的優勢。"],["林委員德福：要接軌AI相關的技術，百工百業的建置成本，你認為我們都準備好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在開始從AI新十大建設來統合，其實我們的科技預算經費當然是更大，但有的是原來的計劃在進行當中，我們先把它挪一部分在AI新十大建設，啟動一個新時代的科技建設計畫。"],["林委員德福：院長，面對美國新關稅的這些政策、市場的競爭，行政院要推動AI新十大建設人工智慧，對於提升產業競爭力有非常大的幫助，我請問院長，百工百業導入AI相關技術會不會發生人力排擠的效應、會不會反而導致某些產業甚至人力被淘汰？萬一人力排擠、淘汰，甚至於產業走向黃昏。請問院長，政府有沒有想過到底要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們AI新十大建設的終極目標是希望成立、進入到一個全民智慧生活網，在這過程當中，我們有十大項，其中有一項是AI人才的培育跟資金的投入，所以這都是在整個配套當中，對於如何在現有硬體製造方面的領先，我們繼續往軟體發展，讓它有一個登峰的計畫，這個是AI新十大建設。當然，將來會造成一些產業上的轉型和升級，這個都在我們規劃當中，我們在數位碁盤當中，就有一個產業科技均衡的項目，我們會……"],["林委員德福：我希望行政院要做就要好好的、比較細膩的規劃，不要到時候這裡好，結果很多百工百業，甚至很多人力沒有辦法去做他們原來應該要做的，變成失業等等。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會協助中小微企業進行轉型，這個是必要的，人力跟科技的轉型、數位的轉型都是必要的。"],["林委員德福：好啦！我是認為這一點很重要……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，請委員能夠支持。"],["林委員德福：不要只顧這裡，沒有顧到其他面向，結果衍生出社會很多問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：AI的時代有AI的問題，我們會事先做一些防範，但轉型是必然的過程。"],["林委員德福：事前一定要好好的、細膩的規劃，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝，也請委員能夠支持這樣一個建設計畫，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、財政部長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請葛如鈞委員質詢。黃珊珊委員，請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aafd710a5f441039b785e1af54c489cd6218bd6bf3e548dbcf53e0a86760a0e7675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:33:38 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我说共铁是要消灭国民党消灭中华民国的这是共铁的工作 这跟我们所称的所谓政治犯思想犯是不一样的而且身为国民党主席他应该知道历史也知道现实当大陆 中国正在大陆吹捧无实的时候他已经陷入这种统战的过程当中大陆加强统战的结果就会出现"},{"start":332.194,"end":356.258,"text":"所以保衛中華民國台灣主權跟安全的工作已經沒有辦法在由黨主席所帶領的中國國民黨身上看到他已經跟這個理念背道而馳了所以未來政府應該跟國內的所有自由民主的人士更加強對中華民國台灣主權安全的保障我們必須要堅持這個原則謝謝院長表達這樣嚴正的態度我們是不是接下來也請主席邀請我們國發會主委還有經濟部部長"},{"start":361.378,"end":373.404,"text":"經濟部長 國安會主委國安會主委今天請教副主委代理部長我想請教你一件大事"},{"start":374.434,"end":401.789,"text":"我們捷安特被美國查過貨品這應該你知道這個是我們台灣第一次企業因為勞權的問題被美方來把貨品給扣住了這個不是企業倒楣我都認為這是國家品牌我們很重大的一個危機美國的海關說捷安特去採到了強迫勞權11項指標裡面的5項這不是小事情"},{"start":402.905,"end":428.438,"text":"這個是一個國際上的警訊事情一發生以後業者他跑去跟我們外交部我相信也有跟你們經濟部還有勞動部來求助甚至於拜訪監察院我在司法法治委員會的在質詢的時候我還特別要求我們的監察院不要我們業者受苦受難的時候從後面再去撲刀這個代表"},{"start":429.87,"end":457.415,"text":"業者來求助的時候是他們慌了但重點是說我們政府能幫他們什麼我要請教部長說我們經濟部現在實際上去介入協助了什麼有沒有一個跨部會的機制一起來幫企業釐清事實來改善我們自己國內的一個企業的制度保安委員因為他這一個算是一個個案那事實上美方之前馬上有跟我們有過說"},{"start":459.91,"end":480.104,"text":"知道這件事情但是我們也跟美方有討論過這個東西他們強調是個案我們也嘗試聯繫說據道他們也想說我們怎麼樣去跟美方來做說明所以我們也跟美方表達然後也幫他們介紹了律師怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":482.009,"end":508.212,"text":"美方也明顯的告訴我們因為這個是個案是他個案跟美方的邊境管制局的兩照希望我們政府先不要急著介入但是我們有幫他們做後來巨大也跟美國的已經有見面了已經也做了說明了因為他這個只是暫時處分最後結果還沒有判定"},{"start":509.366,"end":529.749,"text":"本席認為這件事情非同小可不要小看他你去把他看看這個最壞的情況會是什麼呢你對一間這大企業想就營收65%你一個貨卡在那個地方2到3年光捷安特一家可能就蒸發掉30億這個影響到的不是只有這家公司"},{"start":530.97,"end":550.706,"text":"還有他整條供應鏈都會被拖下去喔現在TBA的工會已經在動美利達也準備要去改善那我們是希望說剛剛部長你這樣的回答那當然是有一點很圓融像因應美方美國政府的一個要求可以把事情給解決掉這也是一個方法但是呢"},{"start":551.687,"end":568.241,"text":"政府你說不動起來看企業自己在那個地方救火本席還是表達很擔心這個只是美國你看你接下來歐盟CSDDD上路人權就是新時代的貿易的一個通行證你現在不只美國"},{"start":569.102,"end":583.964,"text":"歐盟現在也動起來了你說去年通過一個新的指令企業永續盡責調查的一個指令就是本期剛提到的CSTDD白話講就是說把供應鏈的人權跟環保的要求寫進法律2027年就要上路"},{"start":584.685,"end":597.693,"text":"就是說台灣的企業只要你接了蘋果Apple或者Nike這些大品牌的你通通要遵守這套法規這個不是一個選擇題這個到最後是一個強制的我們自己對這個國際新的規範現在的還有2027年就要去上路的"},{"start":611.38,"end":629.407,"text":"我們有什麼樣的一個未雨綢繆我相信我們政府會有自己的一個時程你像比如說我們從114年開始啊營收超過500億的製造業上市貴公司你開始要做人權的盡責的一個調查你116年起成果要公開在永續的一個報告書上但是呢"},{"start":630.455,"end":644.695,"text":"本市要強調就是說我們不能出事之後那開始在補破案沒有 報告委員我剛才講雖然剛剛講巨案是一個個案沒有錯但是通案的部分我們已經跟勞動部要協商怎麼樣來因應所謂的強迫勞動這個議題"},{"start":646.156,"end":671.832,"text":"強迫勞動它的範圍蠻廣的對台灣來講的話很多我們是立即就可以改善的比如說職場的環境等等公安等等的一些情況但是最主要還是移工的問題我們現在遇到的問題我們本國勞工比較沒有問題是移工的問題移工現在比較麻煩就是仲介費的問題因為仲介費是對方國的仲介拿走但是對全世界來講"},{"start":673.277,"end":691.674,"text":"他還是覺得說你雇主要全部負責吸收啦那這個部分我們跟勞動部正在討論說看怎麼樣去因應還是有一個緩衝期還是怎麼樣但是終究要去處理謝謝部長院長我要提的就是說政府應該是當企業的靠山"},{"start":693.412,"end":712.572,"text":"這些大型企業捷安特巨大的在台灣或者國際上都算非常有名的他企業都已經夠大了那很多產品他還不是他自己做他還是有很多供應鏈那政府我所謂的當企業的靠山就是說那底下那些供應鏈呢"},{"start":713.593,"end":736.567,"text":"你說巨大你說捷安特你說美利達我達到我自己的這些人權的一個指標了那底下的供應鏈呢我的意思就是說政府尤其是我們經濟部對這些中小企業該輔導的部分我們要為與籌謀要準備好不然新的制度上路以後我相信這個都是我們不是只有企業的危機"},{"start":737.307,"end":746.987,"text":"到最後會變成台灣品牌的一個危機請 院長簡單的一個答覆第三方面跟委員答覆第一個 委員剛剛提到人權是國際貿易的一張門票這個我非常認同"},{"start":748.254,"end":774.015,"text":"沒有達到這個人權的要求我們要跟國際進到國際社會都很困難況且要談到競爭這是第一個部分第二個雖然這個案件剛剛部長講是單一的事件但我願意政府願意從單一事件來做全面性的檢討請經濟部勞動部就所有的勞動條件跟他的勞動的保障要做全面性的檢討也希望也提出一個指引讓大家可以共同遵守為什麼現在我們第三個部分就是"},{"start":774.375,"end":792.081,"text":"我們現在有推出一個企業與人權的國家行動計畫第二期這個就是要生產者跟他的供應鏈都要達到人權的標準所以我們當中有一個企業實施人權禁止的調查這個調查非常重要我們會分公司的大小分層次"},{"start":793.493,"end":802.363,"text":"暗部就班循序漸進的來要求但總結總結最後就是達到委員說的那句話人權的標準要達到國際的標準我們才能夠順利進到國際的市場謝謝院長那我為什麼請國安會主委上來我記得"},{"start":808.369,"end":832.699,"text":"經濟部長 工部長在當國會主委的時候我在院會質詢的時候我就對於我們這個少子化的部分我就一直在追問過了兩次那我國少子女化的對策計畫從107年到114年不夠了 只剩一個月而已也就是說我們這個八年的人口政策接近尾聲其實這個分數不及格"},{"start":833.68,"end":863.019,"text":"不及格了政府沒有辦法去強迫人家生啊但是呢我們看到了很多狀況你說我在鄉下我看了很多啊學校合併啊社區老化為什麼會這樣小紅起馬他的誰料酒你看像你你看現在全台出生人口預估13萬創新低連台東人口跌破21萬出生是死亡的五分之一啊"},{"start":865.13,"end":887.184,"text":"2014年日本首相安倍提出地方創生他們2015年是地方創生元年我們2019年我們也是地方創生元年日本抓30年我當然現在我們才幾年的時間我們不敢期待看到巨大的一個效果可是我們現在都辦了活動居多了少子化他不是生的少"},{"start":888.274,"end":912.052,"text":"而更是留不住也回不來對鄉下來講就是這樣子那我要請教院長跟國會我們下一期的規劃是這樣的問題我們不要只停留在補貼了你像比如說你現在要人口政策應該進一步應該是引人回流吸引人才來你們現在有一個叫數位游牧新型人口的一個政策"},{"start":912.873,"end":930.565,"text":"也已經核定了 你是三大據點台北 台南跟台東那我要講的就是說你這個執行的重心如果都偏向活動的話你很難達到這個效果了你說你至少要有一個中長期的KPI去追蹤留台人數跟你整個創業的一個轉"},{"start":960.167,"end":960.687,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝莊委員 謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時33分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長好。我想本席今天的質詢將圍繞在整個產業的轉型，到企業人權跟社會正義，但是首先想從最近一個關於價值的問題來請教卓院長，就是這兩天中國國民黨黨主席，也就是本院的前同事鄭麗文，他出席了50年代白色恐怖秋祭追思慰靈大會，其中追思到一位最有名的就是被判定為白色恐怖時期共諜的吳石，我要請教院長的就是，對於在野的政黨領袖公開參與共諜追思，我不曉得你的看法怎麼樣，我相信國人同胞一定會覺得一邊嘴巴講著反共保臺，一邊跑去追思共諜，甚至於在我們過去成長背景裡常常會看到好多標語──保密防諜、人人有責！講了好幾十年沒有蔣介石跟國民黨，就沒有現在的臺灣！結果現在連蔣介石的誕辰，我看黨主席連一篇文都懶得發了，寧願去追思共諜。我不曉得這到底是哪一個版本的中國國民黨，是臺灣的國民黨，還是北京的國民黨？","所以我要請教院長的就是，你對於在野黨的領袖公開參加這場共諜的追思會，身為中華民國最高行政首長的卓院長，你的態度、看法怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我表示遺憾！因為一個中國國民黨的主席，當他知道中國共產黨正在大力吹捧吳石，甚至要求他的涉臺人員要學習吳石精神的時候，竟然不避諱地去參加這個組織所舉行的活動，會讓我們覺得跟民眾的距離太遙遠了。尤其這幾天討論的熱度是非常高的，但是仍然阻止不了中國國民黨主席去參加這個活動，表示他不在乎社會的觀感，不在乎歷史的定位，也不在乎對岸用吳石的精神要加強對臺灣統戰的事實，跟人民的距離實在太遙遠！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我認為院長這樣的答復，你個人是太過於厚道了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天早上講很多了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我認為連主席臺上的副院長一定會有很大的感慨，過去江啟臣副院長也擔任過中國國民黨的黨主席，我想你一定有一個感觸，過去不論是馬英九也好，或是韓國瑜也好，至少在蔣介石誕辰的時候會去獻個花、去弔祭一下，有的甚至跑去謁靈，起碼維持一個歷史上的一致性！但是看看現在中國國民黨的黨主席，我看10月31日蔣介石的誕辰也隻字未提，但那是國民黨的家務事，問題是轉身去向共諜致敬，我看蔣介石地下有知的話，看到現在這些徒子徒孫，他一定也是覺得不勝唏噓！","但重點是對於國人同胞的看法是，這樣一個政黨，反共的旗子還沒有放下，忠誠就先投降，這個會導致整個國家的錯亂！剛剛院長所提到的，北京當然在大吹大家要學習吳石的精神，對北京來講，共諜從來就不是一個罪名，甚至會認為共諜本來就是為他的祖國在效命！但是相對我們臺灣而言，這些人是在滲透我們的自由體制，破壞我們民主社會的敵人！","所以本席要在這個地方提醒，當中國用經貿、宗教、媒體，甚至文化在滲透臺灣的時候，在臺灣的每一個角落，我們有這樣的風險的時候，臺灣各個政黨領袖的任務其實是捍衛整個國家的意識。所以院長這樣的答復，我雖然覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：早上的答復我可以再說一次，我說共諜是要消滅國民黨、消滅中華民國的，這是共諜的工作，這跟我們所謂的政治犯、思想犯是不一樣的，而且身為國民黨主席，他應該知道歷史，也知道現實，當中國正在大陸吹捧吳石的時候，他已經陷入這種統戰的過程當中，所以大陸加強統戰的結果就會出現！因此，保衛中華民國臺灣主權跟安全的工作，已經沒有辦法由黨主席所帶領的中國國民黨身上看到，他已經跟這個理念背道而馳了！所以未來政府應該跟國內所有自由民主人士更加強對中華民國臺灣主權安全的保障，我們必須要堅持這個原則！"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝院長表達這樣嚴正的態度。","接下來請主席邀請國發會主委，還有經濟部部長。"],["主席：經濟部部長、國發會主委，請。","國發會主委今天請假，由副主委代理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我想請教你一件大事，我們捷安特被美國查過貨品，你應該知道嘛！這個是我們臺灣企業第一次因為勞權的問題，被美方把貨品扣住了，這個不是企業倒楣，我認為這是國家品牌很重大的危機。美國的海關說捷安特踩到了強迫勞權11項指標裡面的5項，這不是小事情，這是一個國際上的警訊。事情一發生後，業者跑去跟外交部，我相信也有跟經濟部還有勞動部來求助，甚至於拜訪監察院，我在司法及法制委員會質詢的時候，特別要求監察院不要在我們業者受苦、受難的時候，還從後面再去補刀。業者來求助的時候代表是他們慌了，但重點是政府能幫他們什麼？請教部長，經濟部現在實際上介入是協助了什麼？有沒有一個跨部會的機制，一起來幫企業釐清事實，來改善國內企業的制度？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為這算是一個個案，事實上美方之前有馬上讓我們知道這件事情，我們也跟美方討論過，這個他們強調是個案，我們也嘗試聯繫……巨大也想說我們怎麼樣去跟美方做說明，所以我們也跟美方來表達，然後也幫他們介紹律師看要怎麼樣來處理？美方也明顯地告訴我們說，因為這個是個案，是個案跟美方邊境管制局兩造的事務，希望我們政府先不要急著介入，但是我們幫他們做了這些事情，後來巨大已經跟美國相關人員見面也做了說明，因為這個只是暫時處分，最後的結果還沒有判定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席認為這件事情非同小可，不要小看它啦！你去看看，這個最壞的情況會是什麼呢？對一間這麼大的企業營收最少降5%啦！貨品卡在那個地方二到三年，光捷安特一家可能就蒸發掉30億啊！這個影響到的不是只有這家公司，還有整條供應鏈都會被拖下去，現在TBA的公會已經在動，美利達也準備要去改善。剛剛部長你這樣的回答，當然是有一點圓融！像因應美方、美國政府的要求，可以把事情給解決掉，這也是一個方法。但是政府不動起來，看企業自己在那個地方救火，本席還是表達很擔心啦！","這個只是美國喔！你看接下來歐盟CSDDD上路，人權就是新時代貿易的通行證，現在不只美國，歐盟也動起來啦！去年通過一個新的指令，「企業永續盡職調查」的指令，就是本席剛提到的CSDDD，白話講就是把供應鏈的人權跟環保的要求寫進法律，2027年就要上路。就是說臺灣的企業，只要接了蘋果Apple或者Nike這一些大品牌的，通通要遵守這套法規，這個不是一個選擇題，到最後這是一個強制的！部長，對這些國際的新規範，現在的還有2027年就上路的，我們如何未雨綢繆？我相信我們政府會有自己的一個時程，比如從114年開始，營收超過500億的製造業上市櫃公司要開始做人權盡職調查，116年起成果要公開在永續報告書上。但是本席要強調就是，我們不能出事情之後才開始在補破網。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我剛剛雖然講巨大是一個個案沒有錯，但是通案的部分，我們已經跟勞動部協商，要怎麼樣來因應所謂的強迫勞動這個議題，強迫勞動的範圍滿廣，對臺灣來講，很多是我們立即就可以改善的，比如職場的環境、工安等等的情況，但是最主要還是移工的問題啦！我們現在遇到的問題，本國勞工比較沒有問題，是移工的問題。移工現在比較麻煩就是仲介費的問題，因為仲介費是對方國的仲介拿走，但是對全世界來講，還是覺得雇主要全部負責吸收，這個部分我們跟勞動部正在討論看看怎麼樣去因應，有一個緩衝期還是怎麼樣，但是終究要處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝部長。院長，我要提的就是政府應該是當企業的靠山，這一些大型企業，捷安特巨大在臺灣、國際上都算非常有名的，企業都已經夠大了，但仍有很多產品不是它自己做，還是有很多供應鏈。我所謂政府當企業的靠山，意思就是底下那些供應鏈呢？你說巨大、你說捷安特、你說美利達，達到它自己的這些人權指標了，那底下的供應鏈呢？我的意思是政府，尤其是經濟部對這一些中小企業該輔導的部分，要未雨綢繆、要準備好，不然新的制度上路以後，我相信這不只是企業的危機，到最後會變成臺灣品牌的一個危機，請院長簡單地答復。"],["卓院長榮泰：這方面跟委員答復，第一個，委員剛剛提到，人權是國際貿易的一張門票，我非常認同，沒有達到人權的要求，我們要進到國際社會都很困難，況且要談到競爭，這是第一個部分。","第二個，雖然這個案件剛剛部長講是單一的事件，但我願意、政府願意從單一事件來做全面性的檢討，請經濟部、勞動部就所有的勞動條件跟他的勞動保障，要做全面性的檢討，也希望提出一個指引，讓大家可以共同遵守。","為什麼？因為第三個部分，就是我們現在有推出企業與人權的國家行動計畫第二期，這個就是要生產者跟它的供應鏈都要達到人權的標準，所以當中有企業實施人權盡職調查，這個調查非常重要，我們會分公司的大小，分層次按部就班、循序漸進地來要求。但總結最後就是達到委員說的那句話，人權標準要達到國際的標準，我們才能夠順利進到國際市場。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝院長。我為什麼請國發會主委上來呢？我記得經濟部部長龔部長在當國發會主委的時候，我在院會質詢時，對於我們少子化的部分，我就一直在追，問過了兩次。我國少子女化的對策計畫從107年到114年，就要到了，剩一個多月而已，也就是說8年的人口政策接近尾聲，其實這個分數不及格，政府沒有辦法去強迫人家生，但是我們看到了很多狀況，我在鄉下看了很多，學校合併，社區老化，為什麼會這樣？消風了嘛，就生得少。你看現在全臺出生人口預估13萬創新低，臺東人口跌破21萬，出生是死亡的五分之一。","2014年日本首相安倍提出地方創生，他們2015年是地方創生元年，我們2019年也是地方創生元年，日本抓30年，當然現在我們才幾年的時間，我們不敢期待看到巨大的效果，可是現在都辦活動居多，少子化不是生得少，而是留不住、也回不來，對鄉下來講就是這樣子。","我要請教院長跟國發會我們下一期的規劃，因為時間的問題，我們不要一直停留在補貼，比如說現在人口政策應該進一步，應該是引人回流，吸引人才來，你們現在有一個叫數位游牧新型人口的政策，也已經核定了，三大據點是在臺北、臺南跟臺東，我要講的就是這個執行重心如果都偏向活動的話，你很難達到效果，你至少要有一個中長期的KPI去追蹤留臺人數，跟整個創業的一個轉化，少子化會讓我們臺灣變老，但是至少你現在提出的這個數位遊牧政策讓地方變年輕。","我期待國發會龔主委現在當部長，前8年做得不夠的地方，你們要延續下去，把整個政策具體落實，不要只有辦活動，錢花掉了，可惜，消風啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：報告委員，我們不是放煙火，我們有整體的計畫，還有一站式的服務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：也要去檢視成果。"],["卓院長榮泰：數位遊牧可以讓我們召集更好的國外優秀人才來，這個也是我們計畫當中，我們會加強。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝卓院長。","李柏毅委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李柏毅書面質詢：","一、中油總部實質南遷議題","目前進度：","1.中油為配合南部企業大樓興建，已於今年5月成立「總部南遷推動專案小組」。","2.中油說明，南部企業大樓座落於臨左楠路側商業區A2街廓南坵塊，占地約1.25公頃。這棟21層樓建築初步規畫以取得綠建築、智慧建築鑽石級標章為目標，期待完工後成為該區域指標性建築。","3.今年5月已啟動基本設計工作，根據中油提供的時程規畫，預計2026年完成都市設計審議，2030年全案完工進駐。","4.至於中油總部南遷議題，中油高層目前仍無意願實質南遷。中油認為公司設施與員工遍及全台，南遷涉及層面廣泛，通盤考量、審慎評估有其必要性。","中油實質南遷優點：","1.台積電高雄設廠後，包括全球六大供應商都需要營運總部、服務據點，在台積電廠區15分鐘內可抵達、可做總部或研發地點並不多。","2.長春石化、李長榮化工等重要基地都在高雄，如果能搭配推動淨零、數位轉型過程，高雄是最好營運基地。","3.配合宏毅、宏南宿舍劃定都市更新單元，闢建產業型社會住宅，增加捷運站周遭土地使用強度，就近提供中油、台積員工居住外，也增加鄰近地區商業機能。","質詢問題：","台積電P1廠已在2025年第4季正式營運量產，且其他廠房（P2至P5）則按照預定時程穩步推進，也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謝謝主席 有請院長好 請卓院長備詢"},{"start":36.267,"end":50.623,"text":"劉委員好院長好院長今天是雙十一是你知道雙十一的問題主要在講什麼很多人去購物是不是對天生平台的雙十一購物節就要今天了就要今天"},{"start":51.383,"end":70.111,"text":"那在中國淘寶、拼多等中國電商平台都會推出這個促銷方案不只對中國對台灣的民眾也推出很多的免運的這個方案然後這些裡面很多是肉品、動植物、藥品這些國內禁運的商品也都有優惠"},{"start":72.284,"end":101.619,"text":"我在這個上個月10月30特別在未還召開這個專案報告要求農業部跟樹花署要針對有提供違建品的促銷業會平台必須強硬的屏蔽拒絕下架院長也特別有在院會取選的時候也有特別這樣的一個要求但實際上效果不是很理想我們要防這波雙11的網購潮目前邊境有足夠的量能進行因應嗎"},{"start":103.715,"end":122.182,"text":"我們已經要求所有的人行李必須 貨物必須經過X光百分之百的檢驗同時人工查驗的部分要比過去至少增加20%這個當然會增加人力的配置我知道院長 院長是行動派的人你在8日有特別到這個淘氣區去做這個視察"},{"start":125.043,"end":145.782,"text":"然後要求邊境查驗要零信任對不對 沒有錯所以我覺得院長的行動力是很強的然後那個宣示也非常有power但是你看 給院長看一個數據今年防檢署桃園機場邊境防疫作業協情保全能力共1.6億元招聘230人計畫人力協助邊境機場"},{"start":148.854,"end":157.721,"text":"但是今年的7月以後再擴充30人10月以後再又擴充19人也因此今年的防檢署在桃園機場總共從230人增加49人達到279人應該沒有錯嗎"},{"start":164.427,"end":187.999,"text":"應該沒有錯吧?兩百四十九人有一部分是為了第三航廈以後過來的部分對嘛,對,我們現在是高層對通機中了我們有七位車警察、十位車警察對不對不管你做什麼工作,重視也是邊境機場的重要的這些人員嘛那為什麼我們不能一步到位?為什麼不能一步到位?而且不是只有淘機啊"},{"start":190.154,"end":211.18,"text":"所以我只是提醒這一點全台灣有18個邊境的港口或機場都是要一致性的去做一個防堵所以我是要提醒院長也提醒部長像這樣的一個人力基本上我們要一步到位也請院長能支持這樣的邊境查驗的人力務必"},{"start":212.267,"end":227.507,"text":"要一次到位然後親會要全力支持謝謝委員的支持我那天講前兩項就是X光設備要正常人力補充要加強意思就是這個樣子但招聘的過程不一定馬一次就能夠把需要的人力都補上來不夠的再補"},{"start":228.067,"end":248.887,"text":"不夠的再補 盡量把這個時針給它拉斷我當然知道現在要交聘人力也不是這麼簡單的事情不過當然這個都是在10月20日之前發生我們就把人力儘速補足嘛那我是希望明年我們的預算足夠我們的人力可以快速這麼多的邊境我們必須要讓人力就位啦"},{"start":250.25,"end":278.06,"text":"編制跟原額應該都是夠的我們在中間盡量把它加強好 謝謝然後這15天的這個進展經營之後我想台灣的豬肉市場目前正在呼出當中這也謝謝院長跟部長的積極的做出相關的應應但是我們補助的這個產業鏈的對象裡面有養豬羅民嘛 肉品市場毛豬的承銷人員等等等但怎麼只有這些對象而已嗎有啊 我們也有攤商也有屠宰場"},{"start":279.114,"end":281.137,"text":"現在公告這些產業鏈的對象為什麼載運土體的運輸業沒有補助為什麼波古斯沒有補助"},{"start":296.584,"end":313.747,"text":"背骨骰,一天聽話班買十頭,一頭兩百塊一天也要兩千,十五天你看他減碳多少阿滴,十五天不可以出現在十五天不可以出醫藥變大隻,賣起來的肚子要更多可能不掙還錢然後養豬,幾乎每一天有兩趟車一趟車可以載孕,載孕六隻、七隻頭,那兩趟"},{"start":323.291,"end":334.252,"text":"你可以算15天然後他這15天不只是載運租車的這些司機包含背骨骰通通歸零怎麼沒有把本人納入在補助對象裡面"},{"start":335.151,"end":361.911,"text":"我跟委員報告 你剛才說的北谷塞本身因為在屠宰場本身我們給他的一個補助其實就涵蓋了他所聘僱這些人另外一個就是你剛才說的土地運輸車跟毛豬的運輸車因為土地的運輸車很多都是食品業者去叫車的我們找不到對象但是毛豬的運輸車我們現在正在盤點在盤點看怎麼樣的方式去協助因為現在第一放出來以後"},{"start":363.332,"end":374.226,"text":"對於這個毛豬的運輸車他的載運的那個次數會變多啦但是我們還是會在滾動的檢討特別是毛豬運輸車的部分不知道能不能加快速度嗎"},{"start":375.287,"end":399.253,"text":"因為畢竟我們第一波的公告 隔到現在已經一個禮拜多了然後你剛剛講了說白骨骰有但是白骨骰有就不會很危險那白骨骰有去修就不會對於我去發聲嘛這很簡單的理論嘛 對不對所以這個事情你要了解清楚 要快速的因應嘛然後在院處之的是不是可以一個星期內把這樣的一個 不管你找到找不到反正我們就是要積極 像你們在整個因應"},{"start":399.933,"end":422.882,"text":"這個非洲豬瘟的過程裡面就是很快速的啊去做這樣處理啊所以不應該遺漏這些載運豬隻的這些司機們嘛可以吧 一個星期內好 我們來檢討好 謝謝 謝謝部長齁王院長再請教你在114年的7月有正式核定中部精密智慧新核心的推動方案要打造中章雲"},{"start":423.755,"end":426.016,"text":"這個是我們在六大區域產業生活圈當中的一環"},{"start":442.544,"end":469.77,"text":"從北到南到離島到東部我們都有相關地方產業跟科技發展我知道 我特別是提到中部這一個因為中部本來是我們精密製造的一個重鎮那我們希望把它加上智慧所以變成一個精密智慧的新核心它原來就是台灣的核心代表院長我看過嘛代表院長要提醒一件事情有針對雲林我的故鄉有提到生化智慧養殖價值鏈這個很好"},{"start":470.45,"end":499.64,"text":"但是內容卻提到要結合地方的特色對的也對發展如斗六花卉產業本時是斗六人我是大陸出席的大陸人我也已經五十幾年了我也聽過大陸有花卉的產業怎麼會有這樣的一個計畫呈給院長 呈給部長中央要核定推動地方發展的這個四項計畫裡面如果連地方的產業都搞不清楚"},{"start":500.509,"end":509.165,"text":"我們希望廣泛的發展智慧農業新興的智慧農業那個內容裡面寫得很清楚那個地方當然不是殘廢啊 也不廢啊"},{"start":512.489,"end":533.07,"text":"所以我只是要提說怎麼會有這樣的一個計畫方案這個草案當時也是要層層的把關嘛 層層的審視嘛 對不對才呈給院長你嘛 但是這個中間就出問題了嘛所以我是一個雲林的在地立委我要具體跟院長提出這個建立的一個修正好不好 請院長聆聽看看2006年的時候 中央"},{"start":534.282,"end":546.193,"text":"協助屏東成立了所謂的農業生物科技園區並訂下120家的廠家進駐到截至今年10月底喔已經116家進駐然後總同資額已經高達186億我為什麼用這個例子來講因為2006年中央在屏東設置農業生物科技園區然後"},{"start":558.049,"end":584.714,"text":"隔了20年 雲林的農業的產值 雲林農業的品質雲林農業相關的基礎 進步的建設不亞於屏東 池地溫同大宗啦 屏東第一啦池地溫同大啦 啊 第一是1就對了啦所有的收購 加起來的顧菜市場一天可以提供全台47的供應量就對了他們屏東有 農業 生物科技園區為什麼雲林沒有"},{"start":589.161,"end":595.001,"text":"如果今天院長要打造一個中部機密的智慧新核心推動方案是不是可以"},{"start":597.342,"end":621.45,"text":"20年前的屏東農業生物的科技園區雲林是不是有這個機會我們朝這個方向來做研議來做研議讓AI導入到農業這都是大家一直在講的所以生技跟科技絕對有辦法成為雲林打造一個雙技的農業重鎮院長可以接受 承諾嗎來 研議吧"},{"start":624.758,"end":628,"text":"我們針對農業的相關的生技園區我們有一個全台灣的一個評估計畫包括雲林地區適合哪一種的生技園區在裡面去針對智慧農業的部分去重新去做一個評估"},{"start":642.129,"end":654.464,"text":"對 你不管哪一個縣市來去做相關的智慧的榮業評估因為你應該所重之重嘛因為畢竟它產量各項作物的產量還有序幕的產量都是大宗的嘛"},{"start":655.212,"end":676.691,"text":"對 屏東10年前可以 為什麼雲林20年後沒有這個契機所以院長願不願意給這個機會交換下去研議吧農業的產業生技園區竟然是中央來主管那也需要地方能提出一些土地等等那希望地方如果也有這樣的計畫那跟農業部我們一同跟地方來合作"},{"start":677.231,"end":700.179,"text":"我只是請求院長能不能接受我的建議 交代下去研議嘛當然可以 好 謝謝這個研議是不是一個月內就可以提出一些草案 大家來討論嘛 可以吧我們大概從今年的3月就是針對全台灣的這些生意園區的這些適合的地點跟適合的產業但年底的時候應該可以有一個比較完整的報告"},{"start":701.139,"end":729.811,"text":"好連底要到連底我就看這個這個農業部提出來的報告之後再就叫我再提供我再提供謝謝好那行政院要推動這個中部精密智慧新核心的推動方案特別強調AI應用嘛就是包括AI的人才的培訓嘛對不對去年的6月11號一樣在垂青台我感謝院長的支持也感謝郭前部長的承諾就是環球科技這個校舍30公頃12棟校舍至今"},{"start":730.526,"end":753.555,"text":"已經承諾也支持但是整個新辦計畫到現在沒有看到進一步的推動部長報告委員因為我們後來有評估過因為整個用的用地因為這個有30公頃但是如果我們用的話可能只有用其中一部分而已現在教育部又說"},{"start":754.434,"end":768.614,"text":"你全部都要用教育 因為它是教育用的用途不能用其他的用途那這樣的話 即便我們進駐以後其他也都是廢話你當過秘書長 你有統合的能力教育部提出這個問題對你來講絕對不是問題"},{"start":770.97,"end":796.137,"text":"用多少的銷售再培訓人力其他部分可以做相關產業的這樣積極的一個部件 布局 人才的培訓部長你的能力絕對有辦法處理能不能加快速度能不能加快速度嘛好不好 我們就加快速度就好可不可以一個月內我們跟教育部來協商一個月內可以啦我時間有限啦 抱歉我剩兩分鐘而已部長就承諾吧一個月內就是未來這個整體規劃啦好 謝謝一個月內好 謝謝最後"},{"start":800.265,"end":815.897,"text":"不好意思,我以為要抽時間,避憾鳳凰來了,宴旨是我安在剛剛我聽到部長有接受到委員的答覆因為今天本部長不在這個地方,我們跟你歡呼說水會濕出來嗎?水滴會進來嗎?布棚會補嗎?不好意思,沒這麼輕鬆,他連不織布都沒有鋪"},{"start":825.515,"end":850.052,"text":"所以我才在衛環也召開一個專案報告我邀請環境部的副署長你不用來備詢了啦你就直接到台中去作證吧全部的規格通通不符合所以不是報判怕賠不是怕鎖底來吃他是不知不作低級技術都沒有用這風太大後來這就中了還是要整個"},{"start":851.385,"end":875.63,"text":"吹噴嚏或是整個都去噴海就對了他不知是什麼我們的頭領,他要勿然跟什麼聽到我們中央有事先的一些預防措施嗎我知道部長陳部長很辛苦在那邊作證但這個事情是不管是農業部有看到環境部也有看到啊鳳凰要來啊這家營業有沒有辦法在那裡安全過關我不清楚啦"},{"start":876.243,"end":899.755,"text":"但是確實他有太多在處理這個處於掩埋完全不符合規劃怎麼應應 簡單幾句話就好我跟委員報告有關於中央應變中心裡面的處於小組的前進應變所現在持續的每一天都在跟地方政府去要求然後看要怎麼樣去改善現在你所看到的這些現象"},{"start":902.128,"end":930.605,"text":"我是要提醒這件事情的原因就是說它不是只有簡單這兩件事情你們在現場你們在移民中心應該知道它完全不照SOP它完全不照規範現在放回來了這幾個隱埋的廚餘的這些地方會不會出問題出了問題的時候中央跟地方一樣都是要面對要去解決要概括承受所以我是最後要跟院長跟部長特別建議廚餘的事情我們要快速的因應"},{"start":931.735,"end":939.841,"text":"台塑可以幫於縣政府收了這麼多的廚餘去做有機會我們為什麼不能擴大量能"},{"start":961.291,"end":961.752,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":683,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：院長好。院長，今天是雙11，你知道雙11主要在講什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多人去購物，是不是？"],["劉委員建國：對，電商平臺的雙11購物節就在今天，中國淘寶、拼多多等中國電商平臺都會推出促銷方案，不只是對中國，對臺灣的民眾也推出很多的免運方案，這些商品中很多肉品、動植物、藥品等國內禁運商品也都有優惠。我在上個月（10月）30日特別在衛環委員會召開專案報告，要求農業部跟數發署針對有提供違禁品的促銷優惠平臺必須強硬的屏蔽、拒絕、下架，院長在院會答詢的時候也有特別做出這樣的要求，但實際上效果並不是很理想。我們要防這一波雙11的網購潮，目前邊境有足夠的量能進行因應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經要求所有的人、行李及貨物必須經過X光百分之百的檢驗，同時人工查驗的部分要比過去至少增加20%，這個當然會增加人力的配置。"],["劉委員建國：我知道院長是行動派的，你在8日有特別到桃機去視察，然後要求邊境查驗要零信任，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我覺得院長的行動力是很強的，然後那個宣示也非常有power，但是我給院長看一個數據，今年防檢署桃園機場邊境防疫作業協勤保全人力共1.6億元，招聘230個計畫人力來協助邊境稽查，但是今年7月再擴增30人、10月又再擴增19人，也因此今年的防檢署在桃園機場總共從230人增加49人，達到279人，應該沒有錯吧？部長？"],["陳部長駿季：249人，有一部分是為了第三航廈以後過來的部分。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！我們現在是只針對桃園機場而已，我們在7月有擴增，10月又擴增嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：不管他做什麼工作，總是邊境稽查的重要人員嘛，為什麼我們不能一步到位？為什麼不能一步到位？而且不是只有桃機啊，我只是提醒這一點……"],["陳部長駿季：全臺灣有18個邊境的港口或是機場，都是要一致性的去做防堵。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以我是要提醒院長，也提醒部長，像這樣的人力基本上我們要一步到位啦，也請院長能支持邊境查驗人力務必要一次到位，然後經費要全力支持啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的支持，我那天講的前兩項就是X光設備要正常、人力補充要加強，意思就是這樣子，但招聘的過程不一定一次就能夠把需要的人力都補上來，不夠的再補、不夠的再補，儘量把這個時程拉短，充實人力。"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道現在要招聘人力也不是這麼簡單的事情，不過這個都是在10月20日之前發生，我們就把人力儘速補足嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再加強。"],["劉委員建國：我是希望明年我們的預算足夠，我們的人力可以快速補足，這麼多的邊境，我們必須要讓人力就位啦，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：編制跟預算的員額應該都是夠的，我們再儘量把它加強。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。","經過這15天的禁宰禁運之後，臺灣的豬肉市場目前正在復甦當中，這也謝謝院長跟部長積極的做出相關的因應，但是我們補助的產業鏈對象中包括養豬農民、肉品市場、毛豬承銷人等等等，但怎麼只有這些對象而已嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊，也有攤商也有屠宰場，都有啊。"],["劉委員建國：對，就這些嘛，就是現在公告的這些項目嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：就是這些產業鏈的對象嘛！為什麼載運屠體的運輸業沒有補助？為什麼剝骨師沒有補助？剝骨師一天可以剝10頭豬，一頭200塊，一天也有2,000塊，15天下來，你看他少賺多少？豬隻經過這15天的禁宰禁運之後都變的比較大隻，剝骨師要花的力氣要更多，對不對？可能不增反減，然後養豬幾乎每天有兩趟車，一趟車可以載運六、七十頭，一天兩趟，你可以算15天，這15天不只是載運豬隻的這些司機，包含剝骨師，收入統統歸零，怎麼沒有把他們納入在補助的對象裡面？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你剛才說的剝骨師，因為包含在屠宰場裡面，我們給的補助其實就涵蓋了他所聘僱的這些人啦。另外一個是你剛才說的屠體運輸車跟毛豬運輸車，因為屠體運輸車很多都是食品業者去叫車的，我們找不到對象，但是毛豬運輸車我們現在正在盤點，看要以什麼樣的方式去協助啦，因為現在能出豬以後，毛豬運輸車的載運次數會變多，但是我們還是會再滾動檢討，特別是毛豬運輸車的部分。"],["劉委員建國：部長，能不能加快速度？畢竟我們第一波公告到現在已經一個多禮拜了，然後你剛剛說剝骨師有補助，但是剝骨師如果有拿到補助就不會上媒體，如果剝骨師有拿到補助就不會對外發聲，這是很簡單的理論嘛，對不對？所以這件事情你要去瞭解清楚，然後快速的因應嘛！然後載運豬隻的是不是……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我有瞭解……"],["劉委員建國：一個星期內啦，不管你找到找不到，反正我們就是要積極，像你們在因應這個非洲豬瘟的過程就是很快速的去做處理啊，所以不應該遺漏載運豬隻的這些司機們嘛，可以吧？一個星期內。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們來檢討。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。","院長，我再請教你，114年7月有正式核定中部精密智慧新核心推動方案，要打造中彰雲投成為全球精密智慧的新重鎮，塑造中部成為全球領先的智慧製造中心，我不曉得院長有沒有細看過這份方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們六大區域產業生活圈當中的一環，從北到南到離島到東部，我們都有相關地方產業跟科技發展……"],["劉委員建國：我知道、我知道，我特別提到中部的這一個，這個名稱很清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為中部本來就是我們精密製造的重鎮，我們希望把它加上智慧，變成一個精密智慧新核心，它原來就是臺灣的核心。"],["劉委員建國：好，這代表院長有看過。院長，我要提醒一件事情，針對雲林我的故鄉有提到深化智慧養殖價值鏈，這個很好，但是內容卻提到要「結合地方特色，發展如斗六花卉產業」。本席是斗六人，我是斗六出生的斗六孩子，我也已經五十幾歲了，我沒有聽過斗六有花卉產業。怎麼會有這樣一個計畫呈給院長、呈給部長？中央要核定推動地方發展的事項計畫裡面，如果連地方的產業都搞不清楚，發生這麼離譜的事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是要廣泛的發展智慧農業，新興的智慧農業……"],["劉委員建國：對，那個內容裡面寫得很清楚，斗六那個地方不是田尾，它沒有花，所以我只是要提醒說，怎麼會有這樣一個計畫方案，這個草案當時也是要經過層層的把關，層層的審視之後才呈給院長你嘛，對不對？但是這個中間就出問題了。我是一個雲林在地的立委，我要跟院長提出具體的建議修正，好不好？請院長聆聽看看。","2006年的時候，中央協助屏東成立所謂的「農業生物科技園區」，並定下120家廠商進駐的目標，截至今年10月底，已經116家進駐，然後總投資額已經高達186億。我為什麼講這個例子？因為2006年中央在屏東設置「農業生物科技園區」，然後隔了20年，雲林的農業產值、雲林農業的品質，雲林農業相關基礎建設的進步不亞於屏東，養豬業我們是最大宗，屏東第二；養雞業他們最大，第二是我們；所有的蔬果，光一個西螺果菜市場一天就可以提供全臺四分之一的供應量。他們屏東有「農業生物科技園區」，為什麼雲林沒有？如果今天院長要打造一個中部精密智慧新核心推動方案，20年前的屏東可以設立「農業生物科技園區」，雲林是不是有機會朝此方向做研議，將AI導入到農業，這個都是大家一直在講的，所以透過生技跟科技，雲林絕對有辦法打造成為一個雙技的農業重鎮。院長，可以接受、承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員說……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你可能要趕快，因為我剩5分鐘，我後面還有三件事，抱歉。"],["陳部長駿季：針對農業相關的生技園區，我們有一個全臺灣的評估計畫，包括雲林地區適合引進哪一種生技園區，針對智慧農業的部分重新去做一個評估。"],["劉委員建國：對，不管哪個縣市去做智慧農業的相關評估，雲林應該是重中之重嘛，畢竟它各項作物的產量，還有畜牧產量都是大宗的嘛。屏東20年前可以，為什麼雲林20年後沒有這個契機？所以院長願不願意給這個機會，交辦下去研議嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：農業產業跟生技園區，現在是中央來主管的，但也需要地方提出一些土地……"],["劉委員建國：對、對、對，中央主導地方配合嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：地方如果也有這樣的計畫，那跟農業部我們一同跟地方來合作。"],["劉委員建國：我只是請求院長能不能接受我的建議，交代下去研議嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然可以，當然。"],["劉委員建國：OK，好，謝謝。研議的部分是不是一個月內就可以提出一些草案，大家來討論嘛，可以吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們大概從今年的3月就在盤點全臺灣適合生醫園區的地點跟適合的產業，年底的時候應該可以有一個比較完整的報告。"],["劉委員建國：好，年底，年底我就看農業部提出來的報告之後，我再就教院長。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我再提供給委員。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。行政院在中部精密智慧新核心的推動方案中特別強調AI的應用，包括AI的人才培訓，對不對？去年6月11號一樣在質詢臺，我感謝院長的支持，也感謝郭前部長的承諾，就是環球科技的校舍30公頃，12棟校舍，至今已經承諾也支持，但是整個興辦計畫到現在沒有看到進一步的推動，部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為我們後來有評估過，整個使用的用地，因為這塊地有30公頃，但是如果我們用的話，可能只有用其中一部分而已。"],["劉委員建國：對。是。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在教育部又說，你全部都要用教育，因為它就是教育用的用地，不能用其他的用途。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：這樣的話，即便我們進駐以後，其他也都浪費了。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你當過秘書長，你有統合的能力，教育部提出這個問題，對你來講絕對不是問題，用多少校舍在培訓那些人力，其他的部分可以做相關產業積極的布建、布局、人才的培訓……"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對，那我們現在……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你的能力絕對有辦法處理，能不能加快速度？"],["龔部長明鑫：現在教育部……"],["劉委員建國：我們能不能加快速度？好不好？我們加快速度就好，可不可以？一個月內？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們跟教育部來協商……"],["劉委員建國：一個月內，可以啦！因為我時間有限，抱歉，我剩兩分多鐘而已，部長就承諾吧！一個月內。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是未來這個整體規劃。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝，一個月內，好，謝謝。最後，抱歉，因為我要搶時間，時間有限。","鳳凰來了，燕子是否安在？剛剛聽到部長有接受到委員的答復，因為今天彭部長不在這個地方，我們擔心水會不會滲進去？山豬會不會進來？帆布會不會飛走？不好意思，沒這麼輕鬆，他連不織布都沒有鋪，所以我才在衛環召開一個專案報告，我要求環境部的副署長，你不用來備詢了啦，你就直接到臺中去坐鎮吧！全部的規格統統不符合，所以不是怕帆布飛走，不是怕山豬來吃，他是連不織布都沒有用，颱風一來，可能會整個都被吹走、吹壞，它不只是滲入我們的土壤，它要污染到什麼程度？我們中央有一些事先預防措施嗎？我知道陳部長很辛苦在那邊坐鎮，這個事情不只農業部有看到，環境部也有看到啊！鳳凰要來了，這隻燕子有沒有辦法安全過關？我不清楚，但是確實他有太多都還在處理，這個廚餘掩埋完全不符合規範，該怎麼因應？簡單幾句話就好。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，有關於中央應變中心裡面的廚餘小組的前進應變所，現在持續每一天都在跟地方政府要求，然後看要怎麼樣去改善現在你所看到的這些現象。"],["劉委員建國：我要提醒這件事情的原因就是說，它不是只有簡單這兩件事情，你們在現場、你們在應變中心應該知道，他完全不照SOP，他完全不照規範，現在鳳凰來了，這幾個掩埋廚餘的地方會不會出問題？出問題的時候，中央跟地方一樣都是要面對、要去解決、要概括承受，所以我最後要跟院長、部長特別建議，廚餘的事情我們要快速的因應，台塑可以幫雲林縣政府收這麼多廚餘去做有機肥，我們為什麼不能擴大量能？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個經驗我們會好好去觀察，是個好的經驗。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得這個事情應該要面對、應該要處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["劉委員建國：況且擴大量能給台塑去處理，相對的讓肥料價格可以壓下來，也是在幫助農民，也是我們的德政啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個途徑我們會接觸，我們會往這個途徑來做思考。"],["劉委員建國：院長，一個月內應該可以吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓貴賓席的是南非工商臺灣訪問團，歡迎他們到立法院來參訪。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aa3fadb7adbff8e4e585e1af54c489cd6218bd6bf3e548dbcf74376f4625cb93f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:47:03 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境界更好 更穩定這時候我正在看這個內政局對著防疫署的署長的質詢也有請人說 我們都要大大關心這個議題還有三星號 還有這個地方的介紹都非常穩定 感謝我們都要顧到"},{"start":135.555,"end":143.942,"text":"在這裏也要討論到我們這個在外國人持有的近親屍屍的問題我們台灣是一個擁地三逆非常先進的國家我們有關擁地三逆也現在正在走進現代化"},{"start":161.851,"end":168.954,"text":"這個國分歸咒之恩的發生對到我們經過三年造成很大的一個憧憬讓大家意識到我們這個流失的安全的議題說到我們請你看這個數據"},{"start":178.852,"end":205.762,"text":"婦人關國情有一千兩百空三條的用地價總數超過一百五十一萬頭我們一天的土砧量是我們全台灣的一成我們一天土砧超過兩千五百頭全台灣規模第三千架以上的大型的用地價總共有兩百九十六條其中有九十六條"},{"start":208.928,"end":229.632,"text":"是當我們婦人館可以說是中國的三分之一的這個社會我相信國中這樣有靈通了解 現在的情況就是這樣對 所以我們婦人館是我們地下三頁的心中這麼多的社會每一天都要來處理這個都市"},{"start":233.13,"end":244.201,"text":"結果我們就需要要把我們的地產送去百貨公司去進行這個渡載關鍵是什麼是因為這個渡載的量能不夠量能不夠我們分明關鍵是建設檔幾年過程應該了解吧了解"},{"start":257.833,"end":285.378,"text":"民國六十七年建設的現在的食衣精神對於它的老化的這個速度都在從幾乎完全沒有阻止化我要去講到我們這個人道屠宰的過分這種失心人家繼續使用就算在我們這個食品安全的地方有風險也算三明豪流也會比較落後"},{"start":286.823,"end":290.552,"text":"國長,你有沒有感覺到,是不是我們政府應該優先來改善這個行為?"},{"start":293.795,"end":321.309,"text":"我跟委員報告 現在全台灣他的屠宰場大概有55場那55場裡面 其中有22場他具有批發的市場的功能那我們農業部 過去三四年在養豬產業裡面 除了幫我們的豬農的豬舍升級以外我們對於屠宰場本身的一個優化讓他符合一些衛生安全的規定我們也非常努力的去做這件事情感謝博士你好 我們有關精密"},{"start":323.503,"end":339.721,"text":"整個兩極的工程第一次要專門更新土宅社會導入人道土宅的這個流程第二次要建立完整的兩鏈系統這不是第一最重心來建設這個基礎而已是要"},{"start":345.394,"end":365.225,"text":"我們這個婚姻打著全國第一座主動化兩面化的現代都在中但婚姻關在前靠久久 需要靠中央來協助國中剛才說的協助 第一期需要二十一億多千多萬中央國情委員會工作四億人"},{"start":372.489,"end":388.782,"text":"1983年那時候合併的就是不過我還要報告因為裁判法的關係 沒那麼一開始因為政務有比較多錢去做所以議員你用這個錢繼續支持這個投資人員如果不夠的時候 我們中央再來看要怎麼合作我們婦人館是要維護我們台灣全國國人的食品安全我們是要讓我們的地位"},{"start":399.651,"end":412.296,"text":"出國去到外國讓人知道我們台灣地的安全和優秀所以我們要花很多經費來進行這個頂低的改革所以我在這裡要跟國長說過我已經定年我們剛九年的時候有跟國長協調也有請韓院長來跟國長協調那時候我們國長有答應說"},{"start":429.568,"end":434.091,"text":"第一次要給我們教育當我們的掛金錢中一掛12年12月我們就開工當他在一掛15年會落月要來運工現在收起來的什麼就是金錢而已不是說我們的勤奮性不是說我們的勤奮性"},{"start":456.921,"end":461.526,"text":"衛生的同樣是百均市場加以控制的市場薪金要三十億"},{"start":464.349,"end":478.041,"text":"我們中央合作超過二十億一百萬港幣就通過我跟委員報告那破住的部分現在行政院還沒合定在第一站第二站的時候就說婚姻那時候補起來的價位會經驗買了幾位下去那經費越來越大所以我們現在就是說因為財務法的關係萬一本身如果不夠的時候我們中央再來合作"},{"start":491.032,"end":516.948,"text":"經費越來越多,就是越來越晚工作的材料越去越貴當然經費越來越多所以我真的要跟國中各國我們知道一半十四年以後、一半、一半、一十一年以後才是統計起來分明說我們會五地七中,靠那個投訴台灣外地裏的"},{"start":520.68,"end":535.185,"text":"第一就是相隔千五十一萬四千隻相隔千就是婦人關革命未期的三十一分到革命到渡災婦人關的革命都總共有五十萬"},{"start":538.226,"end":543.291,"text":"空前幾隻所以這個量數那麼大我們這個市場的精神應該是有符合到我們現代我們現在有多少錢會競爭市場技術藥的一個設施像這樣"},{"start":554.982,"end":579.945,"text":"我跟委員報告以農業部來說 全體支持說我們要分林有自己的一些屠宰場的部分但是重點就是說當初設計以後的經費一直暴增但是暴增的過程中都沒有跟農業部來協調結果到最後的話就是一筆一筆像您剛才說的二十幾億就出來了那中央本身沒有辦法用這樣的預算說隨時就有經費可以資助第二點就是說"},{"start":580.586,"end":590.142,"text":"我剛才說的 現在有裁判法的時候地方應該可以用自己的錢如果不夠的時候 我們中央再來想辦法裁判法再減二十七億而已對啊 再減二十七億而已"},{"start":595.287,"end":604.777,"text":"因為財化法現在已經落去以後很多事權事權現在我們行政院也在檢討我們也是期待說透過這個財化法可以讓地方有自由的財源"},{"start":611.624,"end":632.55,"text":"那些建設 不免說 還有來臨六環中央來協助建築可以讓那些創造的建築 可以來建設地方但是 現在創造出來的結構 我們不能看是只剩下二十七個所以 當這個六環基礎中間的過分第一 咱們國中有大型的教育"},{"start":638.22,"end":658.305,"text":"後期有資料可以跟我們合作現在我沒辦法跟你說明,我剛才說的就是如果婚姻官自己出錢,如果不夠我們中央會來協助整個界位因為是重大建設也要報到國會去審議啦因為電影報仇的經費,建設的經費一定要經過國會來審議,審議通過以後我們中央才會來協助所以國中、國土要跟我們請勞"},{"start":666.53,"end":675.156,"text":"我現在沒辦法跟你承諾因為議會主要看得到議會主來的經過國安會審議都已經有審議了沒有 審議有在蓋嘛它裡面的一些設計的規劃的這些標準跟中央國安會的標準不太一樣所以後續還是會國安會來審議啦"},{"start":684.642,"end":692.772,"text":"國會審議過就沒問題了嘛國會審議完了以後然後再看經費怎麼分攤啦就是說地方看要出多少錢啊中央不夠的時候中央再來考慮看要怎麼來補助這樣對地理基金也是所以我把我們考慮下去啦對地理基金有14億啦"},{"start":704.737,"end":730.018,"text":"要做事業 我要跟你們報告就是說如果要整個一個屠宰場或是肉品市場要一次規劃完而不是分期喔第一期先拿出來 說完以後再變成第二期再出來這樣沒完沒了 是市區市區的問題第一期剛才我有說完第一期是土宅的股份第二期是兩鏈系統的股份"},{"start":730.899,"end":738.326,"text":"是這樣,不是說怎麼去怎麼分作兩極,是各有各,各有各的事實。這我會來了解,然後再看,買了,看過多次,我再來看。他對,他對,也怪討你啦。這,鄉親一定...我們關係各有各的相關。"},{"start":754.813,"end":781.31,"text":"一定叫農業補償出來修正、解維、聯繫、國發會心理治療它就會出現一個但是這個分段、分攤是第一跟中央依照新的裁劃法來分發現在委員說現在婚姻好像減了一點減到9%是不是就因為裁劃法的設計就是這樣、計算就是這樣所以我們現在有時候要重新的表現我以前一定你有去婚姻"},{"start":782.011,"end":783.437,"text":"觀眾等於跟你說 彩畫畫這樣不對你說不是這樣 你會受傷"},{"start":787.54,"end":791.183,"text":"對 我剛才說希望我們現在會在新的項目上委員可以來支持新的財法法的修正和國管制可以比較平均 比較公平對地的風好 財政可以更加充足我們是一定支持的啦謝謝好 再來要來請教國長我們這個肥腰的問題我們分明是全國最大的擁擠生育的重點"},{"start":817.145,"end":843.402,"text":"用一戶有五千四百多公斤在我們的面積五千八百多公斤都達到全台灣的總量的兩成是由考核的態勢我們的官額跟額外債、內閥額外債也是重要的一個選擇考核有全國地理上的高度會用一戶這幾戶 泰國都當民國"},{"start":846.485,"end":874.336,"text":"几十年就都已经完善坚定 国情 诺化开放了但婚姻关系的灾情到现在都已经一直坚定在我们婚姻的灾情里面 更困难区域里面的就都很荒荒 都吃这 更难收获在这里我要感谢我们的基督徒但夏中九年这段时间 阿家光走着我们这里用一口的"},{"start":875.953,"end":881.517,"text":"提供方法的改善但是我們希望的是什麼?我們都說可以做整體的一個區域可以讓我們更多的協助做好基礎建設強化各方的技術這樣好嗎?"},{"start":897.706,"end":925.218,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們裡面的水路部分我們協助包括我們的農田水利署這邊也會來協助你跟我說整體規劃的時候第一點就是說我們現在本身在地市民管理說要重新的一個規劃因為你重新規劃以後你的水路才有辦法設計所以這個部分其實我們也一直在跟地方政府還有跟我們的漁民在溝通"},{"start":926.226,"end":949.076,"text":"好 這樣感受到嗎需要 電影是需要中興的關懷啦再來我們婚姻演化 價值都是土海衛星我們從這次的婚姻開花企業看這個幾個月我們現在存大約五個彼岡存大約五個彼岡那裡可以"},{"start":954.556,"end":964.3,"text":"有氣啊看,可以處理熱氣之前當分大小當分五條洞的氣缸那還有五分的氣啊看為什麼這個會這樣"},{"start":967.028,"end":992.227,"text":"我跟你們報告過去的專業漁業圈一分兩部分一部分是海洋捕撈的一部分是沿境海的部分因為過去的海洋捕撈的部分因為專業漁業圈的全人就是魚輝部分他本身並沒有去投資啦就是說去增加他的這些漁民漁民的放養量所以我們這一次只核發了他的沿境海的漁業圈所以你看起來面積會變少"},{"start":994.364,"end":1000.411,"text":"刷下去以後他如果要申請海洋漁業權的時候我們就有更好的一個規定所以這兩項是沒關係的"},{"start":1002.314,"end":1028.132,"text":"和國中各國我們台西五條港、三條港、五條港、五條港五條港、三條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條港五條"},{"start":1029.373,"end":1038.857,"text":"協助肥源 讓他們有更多的海域進行鼓浪這個國運可能要改革都要講 要再討論這我們來做 就是說要怎麼協助我們的肥民在海裡去捕魚這個保安 漁業群的部分我們要跟肥輝跟肥民坐定來討論這個如果肥源跟肥輝對香港調查跟這個規定有什麼問題"},{"start":1058.59,"end":1076.3,"text":"是不是可以請我們農藥公司來提供協助一定 我們現在就在協助啦就是說這個漁業圈 陸漁圈的部分我們協助到市府都會來共同來協助我們的市民來申請啊當這個公司也去牽連到什麼呢離島港藥庫的這個範圍裡面所以我現在在處理啊對 離島港藥庫的整個也是非常影響到我們這個市府的這個發展"},{"start":1088.39,"end":1094.294,"text":"剛才看到我們血管的頭,也看到屍骸跟大腮、大肝分,有很多去外面,大肝那裡也是,血有這個甘藥膏的分類在裡面。"},{"start":1102.09,"end":1112.973,"text":"我跟委員補講,因為階級降落去以後變成說我們沒辦法去討害,沒辦法去取福利嘛,我跟經濟部也有討論就是說,他還沒開發以前,可以讓我們的市民去捧蚵仔所以基本上我們現在在處理啊對,這大型的立陶宇工業區的範圍,真的很久沒開發,市場看不見,這國分"},{"start":1131.926,"end":1134.929,"text":"真的我們一定要認真地討論我們剛才在說的那種分離道工業區的那種我之前也有去試試過我們之前"},{"start":1149.642,"end":1156.444,"text":"洪源也邀約出來 剛才郭中央說你們在解決這個問題我們跟經濟部現在有在討論看要怎樣 還沒開發以前這個地方可以讓我們的市民去放學 去投海"},{"start":1166.667,"end":1183.858,"text":"所以這個國分可能要拜託我們國警措施我們國警措施有很多這長久以來因為這個工業區的犯罪工業區海域有很多在那裡灌額他的額外錢都在那裡灌額那時候都是事實但是剛好在海外途遇到我們政府的這個協助"},{"start":1196.937,"end":1203.241,"text":"這個國分要我們趕快來解決再來就是這個人力的問題剛才我們講到這個氣氛我們氣氛也有人對強硬的這個問題分明是蚵仔 鋼蚵仔的蚵仔膿因為老年化 少子化的這個影響 微高採收期"},{"start":1225.939,"end":1245.166,"text":"都有人工骨灸的問題我們現在有動手的時辰可以新鮮快樂來日的農民可以新鮮快樂但是教法和頭頂就是不能新鮮快樂"},{"start":1248.772,"end":1265.698,"text":"青蛙、藍蛙、純蛙的角落來教法、道修額 叫人抓到要花錢來鷺的角落來教法、道修額 也是叫人花錢叫人花錢 這個角分 角中要到三天"},{"start":1266.492,"end":1284.11,"text":"我跟委員報告 你說的這件事 我也跟勞動部已經討論過了就是說我們現在的本身養殖的移工有沒有 跟漁法的移工 這是兩類的所以你行政的人 你如果要同時申請兩種那你這樣的話就可以隨時來交替 啊這部分我已經跟勞動部..."},{"start":1287.714,"end":1289.996,"text":"所以他們會做一個更進一步的一個解開這個相關的限制"},{"start":1308.992,"end":1312.196,"text":"有動手的時候,因為我們魚缸、魚沙積量太多,當退潮,豬腦骨還會曬出來,因為魚缸、魚骨還會入缸,所以我們天氣熱,但是他們要出海,出海的時候,"},{"start":1329.535,"end":1341.143,"text":"生命要有教法來存在這樣的活動結果做教法 塞住你的機器 起床了 要上床 抓到也是要開發 也是一樣這個問題所以這個問題 拜託我們肯定要去重視一下要去重視一下 因為土耳其人真的很辛苦"},{"start":1356.53,"end":1380.455,"text":"我了解我大概應該是七月那時候六七月那時候就看到這個問題然後隨時也是跟勞動部在討論所以我相信說在那邊你對疫情應該有緩緩的一個結構是啦 我是覺得柳總柏雲是需要的管理單位沒有清楚現場的這個運作什麼需要希望我們都能夠 能夠幫助市民來進出這部分 能夠放寬 還是比較有彈性然後請法律"},{"start":1386.494,"end":1398.783,"text":"随时有可能去远处吃到发胆 发胆了这个过去再拜托咱搞定 更辛苦一点我们来做好 再来一项就是咱行政委为94年开始执行咱这个地震 河汗执行的方案30年来"},{"start":1411.577,"end":1414.799,"text":"現在地震下降大概已經有很好的結果了因為"},{"start":1432.15,"end":1457.014,"text":"就是已經趨緩了它那個地層下陷的情況已經趨緩了114年的時候雲林地區它沒有明顯的顯著的下降的面積下降的速度每一年超過三公分範圍裡面已經沒有顯著有這樣的情況了海線的部分包括麥寮 台西 口湖也沒有地層下陷的一些狀況我們會持續的"},{"start":1460.015,"end":1472.598,"text":"利用注水啦或等等的一些情況讓他這個可以改善不過我聽這個主理書的姜濤過去封地結尾一行先告婦人關的地產下漢的經營要求是幾多年持續顯示要求幾位這樣"},{"start":1486.417,"end":1512.173,"text":"但是我看到的狀況是這樣就是說剛剛提到的114年數那個量測的結果雲林地區如果顯著下降的就是他一年下降3公分我們叫做顯著下降基本上這樣情況在114年的時候已經沒有了那113年是有的113年就是前面那一年是有的但是114年今年"},{"start":1512.873,"end":1532.982,"text":"情況是已經沒有這樣的狀況就是一年下降三公分這樣的情況已經是沒有了我跟委員報告行政院還是會加強整個防治的力道我們在已經核定了一個雲章地區地層下限具體解決方案跟他的行動計畫的第二期這個第二期會從110到115"},{"start":1535.063,"end":1558.295,"text":"所以現在是在執行當中另外經濟部好像另外有一個防治的計畫他會從114到117這個叫地下水保育管理跟地下層下限防治的計畫這經濟部在做行政院是剛剛那個所以多頭並行一起來防治現在雖然已經有趨緩但是我們希望把它控制在一個更好的狀態底下第二期的經費"},{"start":1567.685,"end":1575.011,"text":"我們查一下月期的經費二十億 我就改過這個地產下限或是說讓我們已經當這個海水道館這個農地可以活化 繼續農用"},{"start":1586.378,"end":1595.622,"text":"這次開了一定是有記載的所以在這裡要向議長報告一下婦人關這個地產行業的系統性大問題已經是國土安全的危機的問題"},{"start":1604.145,"end":1613.367,"text":"一方面利用各種方針的工作來減緩下降的速度另一方面已經下降整體建築的區域我們要想辦法來活化就是我剛才說的想要怎樣來改善做討好這個改良讓他們不是耕種區以來可以活化來建這個耕種區"},{"start":1635.117,"end":1654.831,"text":"所以剛剛院長有提到我們這個地下水保育的管理還有地層下限的防治計畫第四期就會開始持續來做除了減少抽這個地下水之外事實上還會那個補"},{"start":1656.252,"end":1679.19,"text":"把它補進去啦 那個地下水還會補進去那還有一些管制 有一些地區式管制的尤其是高鐵沿線的這個重量的管制風機抽地下水喔對對對 現在就是我現在講的問題比較嚴重 海水倒管的就是當沿海沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿沿"},{"start":1686.864,"end":1713.316,"text":"再來,有方針啦,我們憲政院都有在出方針,是你們要記得,我給你們提醒一下,憲政院在今年幾月二月,有設定一個營建勝利圖案,最終去處規劃方案,這個國防醫療應該會記得啦。你不記得天海是不是?對,不是,我們還是要經過這個處理掉,"},{"start":1716.221,"end":1723.546,"text":"處理過 海水漬掉的地瓦的地區我們都把它囤土 把它養好同樣的土地 土地跟土地我們如果有一個更積極的方式像土地用錢去土我們是不是可以繼續經營是這個概念"},{"start":1743.257,"end":1753.725,"text":"是這個概念研究一下這個可以解決這個土方去化的問題這個可以解決這個土方去化的過分所以在這裡各位請議長跟我們國長重視這個地產化寒這個問題這段時間我去到我們沿海地區看到我們油農過去油農"},{"start":1772.742,"end":1795.5,"text":"的殘地因為地震下山現在頭頂都被海水擠掉了我們看在這裡不敢我們看在這裡不敢我們政府如果說有更好的措施可以來解決我相信我們的地主還有地方的政府"},{"start":1795.97,"end":1802.499,"text":"都一定會恢復下去所以在這裡 拜託我們議長 拜託國長你們大家好好恢復好 謝謝主席感謝大家我們來祝你 來家庭 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝丁委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（10時47分）感謝最強的前主席江副院長、感謝卓院長，請卓院長跟陳部長。"],["主席：請卓院長及陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：院長好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：部長好。今天有可能臺灣會被鳳凰颱風侵襲，整個籠罩在臺灣的範圍，可能要請院長、各部會及各縣市密切配合，要注重回報的機制，可以讓臺灣各地區都可以更加安全。","前一陣子發生非洲豬瘟，感謝中央和地方配合，可以即時阻隔非洲豬瘟的蔓延，讓疫情可以穩定下來。還有一項是，前幾天解除禁宰、禁運，我們還有出面讓豬肉的價格更加穩定，這點我上禮拜對防疫署署長質詢時也有請農業部要大力關心這個議題，也有產生效果，讓豬肉的價格都非常穩定，感謝農業部長。在這裡也要討論到豬肉品市場更新設施的問題，臺灣是一個養豬產業非常先進的國家，雲林縣的養豬產業現在也慢慢走入現代化，但非洲豬瘟的發生，對整個產業造成很大的衝擊，讓大家意識到糧食安全的議題。","部長，請你看這個數據，雲林縣目前有1,203場的養殖場，豬隻總數超過151萬頭，每一天的屠宰量是全臺灣的一成，每一天屠宰超過2,500頭，全臺灣規模在3,000隻以上的大型養豬場總共有296場，其中有92場是在雲林縣，可以說是全國三分之一的數字，我相信部長也認同。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，現在的現況是這樣。"],["丁委員學忠：對，所以雲林縣是豬肉產業的心臟，這麼多的數量，每一天都要處理屠宰，結果我們還需要把豬隻送去別的縣市進行屠宰，原因是什麼？是因為屠宰的量能不夠。雲林縣的肉品市場建設幾年了，部長應該了解吧？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["丁委員學忠：在民國67年建設的，現在設備更新跟不上老化的速度，屠宰線幾乎完全沒有自動化，更不要說人道屠宰的部分，這些設施如果要繼續使用，不但對我們的食品安全有風險，在產能、效率上也會比較落後。部長，你覺得政府是不是應該優先來改善這個項目？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在全臺灣的屠宰場大概有55場，在55場裡面其中有22場具有批發市場的功能。農業部過去三、四年在養豬產業裡面，除了幫豬農的豬舍升級以外，對於屠宰場本身的優化，讓它符合一些衛生安全的規定，我們也非常努力地去做這件事情。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝部長，雲林縣現在規劃了兩期的工程，第一期要全面更新屠宰設備，導入人道屠宰的流程。第二期要建立完整的冷鏈系統，這不是地方想要重新來建設這個市場而已，是要在雲林打造全國第一座自動化、冷鏈化的現代屠宰場，但雲林縣的財政比較不足，需要靠中央來協助。部長，剛才說的協助，第一期需要21億8,800萬，中央目前為止補助4.2億，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：113年時核定的就是，不過我跟委員報告，因為財劃法的關係，明年開始因為地方政府有比較多的預算可以做，所以它可以用這筆錢繼續支持屠宰場的運作。如果不夠的話，中央再來看要怎麼協助。"],["丁委員學忠：部長，雲林縣是要維護臺灣全國國民的食品安全，是要讓我們的豬肉出口到國外，讓人家知道我們臺灣豬的安全跟優秀，所以我們才要花這麼多經費來進行場地的改建。我在這裡要跟部長報告，我記得去年我們剛上任的時候有跟部長協調。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：也有請韓院長再跟部長協調過，那時候部長有答應第一期要給我們9億，我們的肉品市場在112年12月就開工，預定115年6月要完工，現在欠缺的是什麼？就是經費而已，不是我們在計較，為什麼一樣是肉品市場，嘉義朴子的市場興建要30億，中央就補助超過20億，109年就通過，到現在還沒動？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，朴子的部分現在行政院還沒核定，這是第一點。第二點，雲林那時候報過來的計畫，後來規劃下去經費越來越大，所以我們現在因為財劃法的關係，明年雲林如果不夠的時候，我們中央會再來協助。"],["丁委員學忠：經費越來越多就是因為你們補助越來越慢，材料越漲越貴，當然經費要越來越多啊！所以我在這裡要向部長報告，我們知道114年1月到11月4日統計起來，雲林縣的毛豬市場拍賣的頭數是臺灣排名第二的；第一個就是新北市51萬4,000隻，新北市的數量又是雲林縣拍賣不出去的，送去那裡讓他們幫忙拍賣，幫忙屠宰。雲林縣拍賣量總共有五十萬七千多隻，這個數量那麼大，我們這個市場的本身應該是要符合我們現代肉品競爭市場必需的設施，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，以農業部來說，絕對支持雲林有自己的屠宰場，但是重點就是當初設計以後的經費一直暴增，但是暴增的過程中都沒有跟農業部協調，結果最後就是一筆像你剛才說的二十幾億就出來了。但中央本身沒有辦法有這樣的預算，隨時就有經費可以資助；第二點，我剛才說的，現在有財劃法，地方應該可以用自己的錢，如果不夠的時候，我們中央再想辦法來協助。"],["丁委員學忠：不過地方透過財劃法還少了27億呢！還少了27億耶！"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在財劃法把錢分下去以後，我們行政院也在檢討很多事權……"],["丁委員學忠：我們也是期待透過財劃法可以讓地方有自有的財源，一些建設不用再去勞煩中央來協助經費，可以讓地方有充足的經費，可以來建設地方，但是現在算出來的結果，我們雲林縣還少了27億。所以在肉品市場重建的部分，第一期部長有答應的9億，後續有辦法幫我們補足嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在我沒辦法跟你這樣說明，我剛才說的，如果雲林縣自己出錢，錢不夠的時候，我們中央會來協助。整個計畫因為是重大建設，也要報到國發會去審議，因為地方報出來建設的經費，一定要經過國發會來審議，審議通過以後，我們中央才會來協助。"],["丁委員學忠：所以部長沒辦法給我們承諾？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在沒辦法跟你承諾，因為計畫書還沒看到，計畫書還要經過國發會審議。"],["丁委員學忠：都已經有送進來了？"],["陳部長駿季：送進來但還有再修改，裡面一些設計、規劃的標準，跟中央、國發會的標準不大一樣，所以後續還是國發會會來審議啦！"],["丁委員學忠：國發會審議過就沒問題了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：國發會審議完了以後，然後再看經費怎麼分攤，就是地方要出多少，不夠的時候中央再來考慮看看要怎麼補助。"],["丁委員學忠：好，這樣第二期也順便考慮下去，第二期有14億啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果要規劃一個屠宰場或是肉品市場要一次規劃完，而不是分期，第一期先拿出來講完以後第二期再出來，這樣沒完沒了啦！"],["丁委員學忠：是設備的問題，剛才我有說明，第一期是屠宰的部分；第二期是冷鏈系統的部分，是這樣，不是說要怎麼分成兩期，這是不一樣的設施。"],["陳部長駿季：一個在「厝殼」，一個在裡面啦！"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分再拜託部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我會來了解，最後我們再來看多少錢。"],["丁委員學忠：院長，也拜託你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院一定都……"],["丁委員學忠：雲林縣是第五級的窮縣。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定是照農業部送出來的修正計畫，然後送國發會審議之後，它就會出現……但是這個分攤是地方跟中央依照新的財劃法來分攤，剛剛委員說現在雲林好像又少了一些，就因為財劃法的設計、計算就是這樣，所以我們才會想說要重新來調整……"],["丁委員學忠：我記得院長有去雲林，縣長當面跟你說財劃法這樣不對，你說不是這樣，你們會修正，我當場在那邊有聽到。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以我們希望現在有一個新的想法出來，委員可以來支持新的財劃法的修正，讓各縣市能夠更平均、更公平。"],["丁委員學忠：對地方好、財政能夠更加充足，我們是一定支持的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝。"],["丁委員學忠：再來，要來請教部長漁業的問題，雲林是全國前三大養殖產業的重點，養殖戶有五千四百多戶，漁塭的面積有五千八百多公頃，都占全臺灣總量的兩成，四湖、口湖、台西也是放養蚵仔跟育苗的重要產地。口湖有全國第二大的9大養殖區，這幾區大部分都在民國80年就已經完成設置，目前老化比較嚴重，但剛剛就已經一直強調雲林財政比較困難，區域內的道路跟河岸很多都要修復，我在這裡要感謝漁業署在我上任的這段時間也很幫忙改善這些養殖區的道路跟河岸，但是我們希望的是什麼？農業部可以做整體規劃，給我們更多的協助來做好基礎建設、強化各項技術，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，漁塭裡面的一些水路部分，漁業署包括農田水利署也會來協助啦！你跟我說要整體規劃的時候，第一點，現在在地的漁民是不是願意重新來規劃，因為要重新規劃以後水路才有辦法設計，所以這個部分其實我們也一直在跟地方政府，還有跟漁民在溝通。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長，地方是需要中央的關懷啦！再來，雲林沿岸很多都是討海維生，在這次的雲林沿岸海域專業漁業權的規劃，我們現在剩台子村漁港有漁業權可以去捕魚，之前台西的五條港漁港還有部分的漁業權，為什麼這次會這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，過去的專業漁業權分兩部分，一部分是海洋捕撈；一部分是沿近海的部分。過去海洋捕撈的部分，因為專業漁業權的權人就是漁會，它本身並沒有去投資，就是去增加這些魚苗的放養量，所以我們這次只核發它的沿近海漁業權，所以你看起來面積會變少，接下來，以後如果它要申請海洋漁業權的時候，我們就有更好的規定，所以這兩項是沒有關係的。"],["丁委員學忠：跟部長報告，台西、五條港、三條崙、金湖、箔子寮、台子村，你看這6個漁港都有漁船，就是有去捕魚的事實，所以在有限制的海域裡面，是不是可以再討論一下，協助漁民可以讓他們有更大的海域進行捕撈，這個部分可能要拜託農業部再幫忙一下。"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們會做，就是要怎麼協助漁民在海域內捕魚，漁業權的部分，我們會跟漁會、漁民一起來討論。"],["丁委員學忠：如果漁民跟漁會對現況調查跟規定有什麼問題，是不是可以請農業部漁業署提供協助？"],["陳部長駿季：一定，我們現在就有在協助啦！入漁權的部分，漁業署跟漁會都會共同來協助漁民來申請。"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分會牽連到什麼呢？離島工業區的範圍裡面，我們過去……"],["陳部長駿季：這部分我現在在處理了。"],["丁委員學忠：離島工業區的規劃也是非常影響到我們漁業的發展，剛才看到我們漁業權的圖，也看到四湖跟台西大部分都沒有劃進工業區的範圍裡面。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為過去工業區劃下去以後，變成沒辦法在那邊討海，沒辦法在那邊放養蚵仔，我跟經濟部也有在討論，它還沒開發以前，可以讓我們的漁民在那邊去放養蚵仔，基本上我們現在在處理了。"],["丁委員學忠：因為這一大片的離島工業區範圍，那麼久沒有開發，漁業權又不能劃，這部分真的一定要認真去討論。我們剛才在說離島工業區漁業權的部分，我之前也有質詢過，到現在方案也還沒出來，剛才部長說你們有在解決這個問題了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們跟經濟部現在有在討論要怎麼樣在它還沒開發以前，這個地方可以讓我們的漁民去養蚵仔，去討海。"],["丁委員學忠：所以這個部分可能要拜託你們速度加快，長久以來，因為工業區的限制，工業區海域有很多在那邊放養蚵仔的，他們的蚵架都在那邊，明明放養蚵仔是事實，但是遇到災害時卻沒辦法得到政府的協助，這個部分要幫我們趕快解決。","再來就是人力的問題，剛才我們說到漁業權，我們漁民也有面對缺工的問題，雲林養蚵仔、放養蚵仔的蚵農，他們受老年化、少子化的影響，每到採收期都有人工不足的問題。現在符合噸位條件的漁船可以申請外勞，內陸的農舍可以申請外勞，但是膠筏就是不能申請外勞，現在如果船隻上的外勞來膠筏幫忙收蚵仔，被抓到要罰錢，內陸的外勞來膠筏幫忙採收蚵仔也是會被罰錢，這個部分部長要怎麼幫忙？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你講的這件事情，我也跟勞動部已經討論過了，現在養殖的移工跟漁筏的移工，這是兩類的，所以你申請的時候就要同時申請兩種，這樣的話就可以隨時來交替，這部分我已經跟勞動部……"],["丁委員學忠：船隻、竹筏跟膠筏要同一個申請人就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以最近已經跟勞動部開會，我們有提出申請了，他們初步審查也覺得農業部說得有道理，所以他們會更進一步解開相關的限制。"],["丁委員學忠：還有另外一個問題，有噸位的漁船，因為我們漁港淤沙太多，退潮時船沒辦法開出去，也沒辦法入港，所以他們要停在外海，但是他們要出海的時候要有膠筏來轉載這些外勞，結果將膠筏開出去要去漁船上，抓到也是要開罰，也是一樣這個問題，所以這些問題都拜託部長要去重視一下，因為討海人真的很辛苦。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，我大概在6、7月那時候就看到這個問題，隨時也是跟勞動部在討論，所以我相信在年底以前應該會有圓滿的一個結果。"],["丁委員學忠：對啦，我是覺得勞動部不是漁業的管理單位，並不清楚現場的運作與需要，所以我希望農業部可以幫漁民爭取放寬，或讓它比較有彈性一點，不然隨時都有可能因外勞而接到罰單。這部分就拜託部長幫忙，也辛苦部長了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來做。"],["丁委員學忠：再來，行政院從84年開始執行地層下陷防治執行方案，三十年來中央多次延續計畫，也投入很多預算，請問院長，目前成效如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。現在在處理地層下陷上已經取得很好的結果，即已經趨緩了，地層下陷的情況已經趨緩了，114年雲林地區沒有明顯的、顯著的下陷面積。以下陷速度來說，每年超過三公分範圍裡已經沒有這樣顯著的情況；至於海線部分，包括麥寮、台西、口湖也沒有地層下陷的狀況，所以我們會持續利用注水或其他方式等等來改善。"],["丁委員學忠：但是部長，水利署在檢討防治計畫時，針對雲林地層下陷的狀況依舊歸類為「持續顯著」。"],["龔部長明鑫：我看到的狀況是這樣的。也就是剛剛所提到的114年的量測結果，一年下降三公分者稱為顯著下降，但基本上這種情況雲林地區在114年時已經沒有了。至於113年是有的，即前面那一年是有的，不過114年、今年已經沒有這樣的狀況，一年下降三公分的情況已經沒有了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，行政院還是會加強整個防治的力道，我們已經核定了雲彰地區地層下陷具體解決方案暨行動計畫第二期從110年到115年，所以現在正在執行當中。另外，經濟部另有地下水保育管理暨地層下陷防治計畫從114年到117年，這是經濟部在做的，而行政院是剛剛那個，我們多頭並行，一起來防治。現在雖然已經有趨緩，但我們希望把它控制在更好的狀態下。"],["丁委員學忠：第二期經費預計要投入多少？第二期的經費。"],["卓院長榮泰：第二期的經費？第二期的經費我們要查一下。"],["丁委員學忠：20億，這可以有辦法解決地層下陷問題，抑或讓遭受海水倒灌的農地可以活化，好繼續再農用，我想錢一定要花得有價值。在這裡我要向院長報告，雲林縣的地層下陷屬系統性大問題，已經是國土安全危機問題！所以一方面，我們使用各種防治工作來減緩下陷的速度；另一方面，已經下陷且不利耕作的區域也要想辦法活化，這就是我剛才所說的，是不是可以進行土質改良，讓現在的非耕種區未來可以活化成為耕種區？是不是請院長從這個方向來進行？"],["龔部長明鑫：剛剛院長有提到，地下水保育管理暨地層下陷防治計畫第四期就會開始來做，除了減少抽取地下水外，事實上還會補地下水進去。此外，有些地區是受到管制的，尤其是高鐵沿線的重量管制……"],["丁委員學忠：防止抽地下水？"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對，現在就是……"],["丁委員學忠：我現在說的問題，比較嚴重，會海水倒灌的都是在沿海地區，因為沿海地區如果要耕作就是要抽地下水。其實行政院是有提出方案的，只是你們忘記了，我提醒你們一下。行政院在今年8月28日有核定一個營建剩餘土石方最終去處規劃方案，這個部分院長應該記得吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是要去填海，是不是？"],["丁委員學忠：不是，也是要經過處理廠去處理過，對於被海水淹蓋的低窪地區，如果只是在上面堆土，那些土地因為鹽化的關係，鹽分一樣會浮到土地上面來，但如果下面有個隔開的方式，上面用乾淨的土，這樣就可以再繼續耕作，是這個概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可以去研究一下，這個可以解決土方去化的問題，也可以解決當地的問題。"],["丁委員學忠：對，這也可以解決到土方去化的部分。所以在這裡要請院長跟部長重視地層下陷的問題，這段時間我去到我們的沿海地區，看到我們過去的優良田地因為地層下陷而被海水淹蓋了，我們看了也覺得很不捨，政府如果有比較好的措施可以幫他們解決，我相信那些地主跟地方政府一定都會非常樂意的。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["丁委員學忠：所以在這裡拜託院長及部長，請你們大家多多費心，感謝大家。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，我們來注意、來加強，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝丁委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aaf1c72b4b23cad33185e1af54c489cd62f014e70a5f3ed7c619e861c81d6c028e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:31:05 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連很多國外的學者"},{"start":51.682,"end":76.037,"text":"認為過去這是不可能做到的事情不可思議的事情但是我們做到了當然要感謝很多在背後在第一線上出力努力的所有的人員的付出但是我必須要請院長能夠密切的關注一件事情在蕭美琴副總統副歐洲議會演說的當天晚上"},{"start":76.637,"end":103.879,"text":"跟隔天也就是昨天大量的網路謠言說蕭美琴赴歐洲演說是換80億換來的這一件事情上我想請教一下院長第一個網友的造謠總統府有出面譴責外交部確定已經報警行政院目前掌握的狀況跟訊息到底有沒有外力的介入的狀況院長請問一下"},{"start":106.372,"end":132.232,"text":"結果當然還要再進一步的去溯源去追查出來但是這件事情讓我們充分看得出來總統帶領的國安及外交團隊一直是戰戰兢兢 安安穩穩的在從事台灣的對外關係我們好不容易得到了這樣的一個機會副總統也是嫌總統之命在非常巧妙的安排底下能夠聚到國外參加這樣的會議"},{"start":133.573,"end":159.587,"text":"那國人應該給予更多的鼓勵甚至希望帶回來更好的訊息而不是用這樣的方式在抵消我們自己的作戰的士氣或者對外的努力的工作我覺得這個是值得我們深思的但就目前為止這個事情總統府已經正式的否認而且予以駁斥那我們循正常的管道循檢調單位在做這個不實的散播謠言者一定要做進一步的追查"},{"start":160.063,"end":180.917,"text":"我要請院長要密切的而且要嚴厲的要求這個真的要做到要防止網路謠言不斷的造謠這樣的造謠我要跟院長報告我昨天一天在很多不同的地方群組就已經看到這樣子的謠言跟圖卡"},{"start":181.417,"end":196.393,"text":"那我覺得這個是不是外力的介入我想大家自有心證但是呢我們的國安團隊一定要嚴正的來第一個制止第二個該法律提告的一定要告到底"},{"start":196.793,"end":216.621,"text":"我們一定要用各種方式來遏止這樣子惡意抵消我們全國大家共同認為感到驕傲而且這麼多人努力才有這麼巧妙的安排讓我們的副總統站上這個國際的舞台到歐洲議會來演講所以院長我要拜託你一定要堅持原則 嚴查宿辦"},{"start":218.402,"end":241.358,"text":"研查速辦剛剛院長有提到當我們的副總統可以站上國際舞台但是看到另外這幾天大家覺得不可思議的是國民黨主席好像樂於站上中國的舞台不知道院長還有沒有印象2012年的立委選舉何新淳一直在這裡"},{"start":243.468,"end":273.048,"text":"對上的是現在的國民黨主席鄭麗文的未來在這裡我一直在台中一直在台中為台中努力一直在為台灣努力那看到當時候的對手鄭麗文他在當選國民黨主席的第一時間我也有恭喜他 祝福他但是呢從他當選主席到現在的所有的言論好像讓國人覺得非常的不可思議而且非常的擔憂所以委員是有實力打敗國民黨主席的人"},{"start":274.209,"end":292.026,"text":"謝謝所以院長對於鄭麗文最後當選的國民黨主席看一下她的選舉公報當時候她對地方也有很多政見然後我今天看到她明天生日也要先祝她生日快樂"},{"start":294.054,"end":309.073,"text":"很高興的是我的鄉親做了對的選擇讓我有機會能夠服務也能夠站上這個舞台但是我覺得以他最近的這些言論甚至去參加所謂的秋季"},{"start":310.314,"end":338.626,"text":"國家的歷史跟尊嚴絕對不容扭曲而且我相信他做的這一個動作第一個民眾黨黨主席黃國昌他也不以為然他說無實是共諜並非政治受難者國民黨自己內部的也有很大的聲音包括他們的前青年部副主任也槓上了現在的鄭麗文主席說追思無實踐踏國家尊嚴"},{"start":341.113,"end":368.659,"text":"剛剛院長有提到我們的副總統好不容易站上了國際的舞台但是我們看到現在的第一大的在野黨的黨主席竟然站上了好像是中國的舞台那院長您對鄭麗文主席的這個看法身為一個主要在野黨的主席對參加一個活動本身就必須是相當敏感注意了解他的背景跟歷史的"},{"start":369.831,"end":399.012,"text":"傳統上我們說台灣民主運動之下的政治受難者是要將台灣從威權體制脫離出來走向一個自由人權民主的一個體制但是一個共諜是要把中國共產黨的極權體制取代中國國民黨的黨國體制這截然是不同的而且程度上是更往反方向走的所以身為國民黨的主席在參加活動之前"},{"start":400.29,"end":405.988,"text":"即使自己不知道當社會討論了好幾天之後也應該了解也應該有這個警覺心"},{"start":407.19,"end":433.682,"text":"過去參加這個活動就會被引申呼應了中國要求涉台人員都學習無時精神的這樣一個做法那變成雙方在做呼應會影響國內的視聽所以我剛才說政府必須更積極的跟國內所有理念相同的政黨跟所有的國人一起為保護中華民國台灣的主權跟安全我們不能放棄我們的原則"},{"start":434.209,"end":436.836,"text":"而這個責任現在中國國民黨可能已經拋棄了"},{"start":438.513,"end":465.525,"text":"可能就拋棄了只有我們能夠做得到他們拋棄但是我們承擔我們願意承擔我們願意堅守價值中華民國台灣的主權堅守保護守護我們的國人這個我想是我們的責任也是我們的目標也是我們的價值之所在中華民國台灣是民主自由的堡壘對不對院長這個我覺得基於我們中華民國台灣的國家歷史跟尊嚴絕對要堅持謝謝院長"},{"start":468.306,"end":497.265,"text":"接下來我就要再談論我們民生的議題了今天是跟經濟相關最重要是大家關心紅胎這個颱風是穿心台雖然在今天早上聽起來好像路線有稍微往南移好像也減輕了為青台但是我們還是謹慎以待 嚴正以待尤其中央曾經進駐花蓮跟台中目前的準備我不知道院長掌握的狀況"},{"start":498.747,"end":514.849,"text":"馬太安溪又溢流我們也要求地方政府要趕快的來撤離而且要做到位現在花蓮縣政府的處理狀況我們院長有掌握嗎還有安全的措施配套呢"},{"start":515.646,"end":539.011,"text":"我希望地方政府能夠依照中央應變中心所依據資訊判斷下的任何指令能夠確實的執行那我也應該要相信花蓮縣政府在經過上次菸社會的事件之後跟中央的配合應該要有一套新的方式那這一次呢我們到目前為止在花蓮地區我們進行了這個"},{"start":541.233,"end":548.006,"text":"撤離疏散垂直避難的已經有4150人那麼撤離疏散的也有2148人那麼收容安置的也有659人"},{"start":553.644,"end":577.405,"text":"這個都按照之前的一些演練的方式有陸續的到位我覺得這次到目前看起來時間上縱然有一點點在調整上面的時間的一個落差一點點但我覺得那個目前為止並沒有產生現在所看到任何影響我希望這些的撤離安置我也要求花蓮縣政府對安置的收容的以及撤離的要託予照顧"},{"start":578.366,"end":602.725,"text":"需要任何的協助中央應變中心會隨時予以支援今天中午諮詢結束之後我會跟總統一起到中央應變中心再跟地方政府做密切的溝通予以必要的協助是 院長大家都辛苦了 你辛苦了但是我們中央應變中心中央一定要全力的來確保所有國人的安全那當然除了進駐花蓮之外"},{"start":603.706,"end":623.316,"text":"因為非洲豬瘟的關係我們中央也進駐台中那我現在擔心的是什麼台中市為了因應非洲豬瘟這個廚餘的問題一直沒有辦法解決所以台中市在原縣區挖了12處的大型土坑來傾倒廚餘現在很多市民擔心的是什麼"},{"start":624.932,"end":647.882,"text":"那些土坑 那些廚餘坑現在碰到颱風來了會不會有造成傷害這個傷害除了可能廢水的溢流 外流危及到環境跟水源還有會影響到民眾的健康甚至這些土坑它的土體會不會潰堤這個其實都需要中央的來協助"},{"start":650.183,"end":674.074,"text":"院長你看一下我幾張照片給你看現在台中市政府的說它因應颱風的措施是蓋帆布壓石頭然後圍籬也是簡單的圍籬這個是現場現在我們昨天照到的照片不知道院長你覺得這個可以止得住"},{"start":675.114,"end":685.359,"text":"抵擋得住颱風的侵襲嗎這樣子的防護措施夠嗎除於在緊急狀況下用這種掩埋的方式"},{"start":686.775,"end":706.959,"text":"是非常不安全的但是在究極的情況下那幾天是特別要這樣做那已經請環 騰進部要求地方的環保局環保單位一定要確實做到要覆土要50 30公分這樣覆土那一定要做到那這個是基本的安全而已但是強風一來可能會造成其他的傷害"},{"start":707.159,"end":733.288,"text":"院長因為你曾經三次到台中來視察而且現場的這個文山掩埋場的現場你也去視察過所以第一時間中央有要求地方政府要做好你剛剛講的緊急的措施30公分50公分這樣的標準但是我們市民擔心的是這些坑挖了之後它的周遭的防固跟防護"},{"start":734.528,"end":759.489,"text":"如果遇到颱風強風暴雨的侵蝕之下沖刷之下這些泥土會不會隨著雨水流到周邊的市民的社區裡面這是第一個第二個除雨的水因為水分是很多的當時候因為救急所以底層的防護布並沒有"},{"start":760.31,"end":783.236,"text":"按照中央的要求甚至市民很擔心連防護的這個底層的那一層帆布可能都沒有那這樣的情況之下颱風又來了到底會不會造成危害我覺得請院長要要求第一個要求環境部我已經跟環境部說過希望他跟地方政府要事先能夠要求他們做到"},{"start":783.836,"end":801.783,"text":"目前可以做的 盡量要完成現在可以做的防腐的措施 因為今天這個彭部長不在這裡 陳部長也知道 這個請農業部來做說明我跟委員很簡單的說明 第一個部分就是為了運營房台 他們蓋的帆布用石頭壓是壓不住的 所以有要求他們從四邊去"},{"start":802.463,"end":831.206,"text":"讓它釘毛往下釘第二個部分是圍籬的部分最主要是防止野山豬來吃廚餘然後我們經過覆土又把它加工本來30公分變50公分然後圍籬或是圍電網的部分那這個部分我想環境部都已經去查過了圍電網是沒什麼問題的現在就是帆布的部分是擔心說如果被風吹走雨水下去以後會導致會有一些類似泥土被沖刷往下移的部分那這個部分環境部都會隨時監控"},{"start":832.978,"end":857.627,"text":"我希望院長跟環境部要求環境部跟農業部相關部會這個監控要協助地方政府要嚴格到位因為這是市民的健康安全的問題水源的部分因為有一個洞是離烏溪比較近就是霧峰那個掩埋場它的下面就是烏溪會注意那個"},{"start":858.397,"end":874.006,"text":"這個要請經濟部 水利組 水利單位要嚴密的來監控好不好我跟永遠報告我們在全台灣比較有風險的22個掩埋場我們都有架設 林保署都有架設監視器所以這個監視器如果看到有一些不對勁的時候隨時會通知地方政府"},{"start":874.825,"end":896.247,"text":"最後最後又是一個民生問題喔雞蛋這個剛剛有聽到部長有回答其他委員我只兩個問題現在已經下架有問題的這個牧場的雞蛋其他牧場安全嗎第二個還有三萬顆的這個所謂的散裝的雞蛋不知去向我們行政院這個農業部有掌握狀況嗎"},{"start":897.068,"end":918.764,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案子一出來由地方政府提報了以後第一時間我們的那個食安辦還有衛福部還有農業部就啟動了聯合的一個查訪那在11月6號的時候我們就到現場去看那個牧場本身的飼料跟雞蛋那現在看起來是沒問題的然後可能是一個單一事件的一個環境污染"},{"start":919.224,"end":933.074,"text":"那我們在確認污染源找到之前我們不會再讓這個牧場的蛋能夠喪失這第一個第二個就是全台灣其他的地方因為過去每一年跟衛福部跟農業部都有去追查好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時31分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：好，請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：院長好。首先我要講一件讓國人都覺得驕傲的事情，就是我們的蕭美琴副總統站上了國際的舞臺，剛剛你回答林楚茵委員的時候也有提到，國人感到非常驕傲，蕭美琴副總統赴歐洲議會演說，讓臺灣走向國際。甚至連很多國外的學者都認為過去這是不可能做到的事情、不可思議的事情，但是我們做到了，當然要感謝很多在背後、在第一線上出力、努力的所有人員的付出，但是我必須請院長密切關注一件事情，在蕭美琴副總統赴歐洲議會演說的當天晚上跟隔天，也就是昨天，大量的網路謠言說蕭美琴赴歐洲演說是用80億換來的。在這件事情上，我想請教一下院長，第一個，網友的造謠，總統府有出面譴責，外交部確定已經報警，以行政院目前掌握的狀況跟訊息，到底有沒有外力介入的狀況？請問一下院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：結果當然還要再進一步地去溯源、去追查出來，但是這件事情讓我們可以充分看出，總統帶領的國安及外交團隊一直是戰戰兢兢、安安穩穩地在從事臺灣的對外關係，我們好不容易得到了這樣一個機會，副總統也是銜總統之命，在非常巧妙的安排底下能夠去到國外參加這樣的會議，國人應該給予更多的鼓勵，甚至希望帶回來更好的訊息，而不是用這樣的方式在抵銷我們自己的作戰士氣或對外的努力工作，我覺得這是值得我們深思的。但目前為止，這個事情總統府已經正式否認而且予以駁斥，我們循正常管道請檢調單位針對這個不實的散播謠言者，一定要做進一步的追查。"],["何委員欣純：我請院長要密切且嚴厲地要求這個真的要做到，要防止網路謠言不斷造謠，我要跟院長報告，這樣的造謠，我昨天一天在很多不同的地方群組就已經看到這樣的謠言跟圖卡，這是不是外力的介入，我想大家自有心證，但是我們的國安團隊，第一個，一定要嚴正地制止；第二個，該法律提告的一定要告到底，我們一定要用各種方式來遏止這樣惡意抵銷我們全國大家共同感到驕傲而且這麼多人的努力，才有這麼巧妙的安排，讓我們的副總統站上國際的舞臺，到歐洲議會來演講，所以院長，我要拜託你一定要堅持原則，嚴查速辦，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定堅持原則，嚴查速辦。"],["何委員欣純：剛剛院長有提到，我們的副總統可以站上國際舞臺，但是另外看到這幾天大家覺得不可思議的是，國民黨主席好像樂於站上中國的舞臺！不知道院長還有沒有印象，2012年的立委選舉，何欣純的「一直在這裡」對上的是現在國民黨主席鄭麗文的「未來在這裡」，我一直在臺中，一直在臺中為臺中努力、一直在為臺灣努力，看到當時候的對手鄭麗文當選國民黨主席的第一時間我也有恭喜他、祝福他，但是從他當選主席到現在的所有言論好像讓國人覺得非常不可思議，而且非常的擔憂。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員是有實力打敗國民黨主席的人。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝！所以院長，對於鄭麗文最後當選國民黨主席，看一下他的選舉公報，當時候他對地方也有很多政見，然後……我今天看到他明天生日，也要先祝他生日快樂！很高興的是，我的鄉親做了對的選擇，讓我有機會能夠服務、也能夠站上這個舞臺。","但是我覺得以他最近的這些言論，甚至去參加所謂的秋祭，國家的歷史跟尊嚴絕對不容扭曲！而且他做的這一個動作，第一個，民眾黨黨主席黃國昌也不以為然，他說吳石是共諜，並非政治受難者；國民黨自己內部也有很大的聲音，包括他們的前青年部副主任也槓上了現在的鄭麗文主席，他說：追思吳石，踐踏國家尊嚴！","剛剛院長有提到，我們的副總統好不容易站上了國際舞臺，但是我們看到現在第一大在野黨的黨主席竟然站上了好像是中國的舞臺。院長，您對鄭麗文主席的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：身為一個主要在野黨的主席，對於參加一個活動，本身就必須相當敏感、注意、了解它的背景跟歷史。傳統上，我們說臺灣民主運動之下的政治受難者，是要將臺灣從威權體制脫離出來，走向一個自由、人權、民主的體制。"],["何委員欣純：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是一個共諜是要把中國共產黨的極權體制取代中國國民黨的黨國體制，這是截然不同的，而且程度上是更往反方向走的。所以身為國民黨的主席，在參加活動之前即使自己不知道，當社會討論了好幾天之後也應該了解、也應該有這個警覺心，過去參加這個活動就會被引申呼應了中國要求涉臺人員都學習吳石精神的做法，變成雙方在做呼應，會影響國內的視聽。","所以我剛剛才說，政府必須更積極的跟國內所有理念相同的政黨、跟所有的國人一起，為保護中華民國臺灣的主權跟安全，我們不能放棄我們的原則，而這個責任現在中國國民黨可能已經拋棄了，只有我們能夠做得到。"],["何委員欣純：他們拋棄，但是我們承擔，我們願意承擔、我們願意堅守價值，堅守中華民國臺灣的主權，保護、守護我們的國人，我想這個是我們的責任、也是我們的目標、也是我們的價值之所在。中華民國臺灣是民主自由的堡壘，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得基於我們中華民國臺灣的國家歷史跟尊嚴，絕對要堅持！謝謝院長。","接下來我就要再談論民生的議題，今天是跟經濟相關，最重要的是大家關心颱風。這個颱風是穿心颱，雖然今天早上聽起來好像路線有稍微往南移、好像也減輕為輕颱，但是我們還是謹慎以待、嚴陣以待，尤其中央曾經進駐花蓮跟臺中，我不知道院長目前掌握的準備狀況為何，而馬太鞍溪又溢流，我們也要求地方政府要趕快撤離，而且要做到位！現在花蓮縣政府的處理狀況，院長有掌握嗎？還有安全的配套措施呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望地方政府能夠確實執行中央應變中心依據資訊判斷下的任何指令，我也相信花蓮縣政府在經過上次堰塞湖的事件之後，跟中央的配合應該要有一套新的方式，這一次到目前為止，我們在花蓮地區進行了撤離疏散，垂直避難的已經有4,150人，撤離疏散的也有2,148人，收容安置的也有659人，都按照之前一些演練的方式，有陸續的到位，我覺得這一次目前看起來，時間上縱然有一點點落差，但我覺得那個目前為止，看起來並沒有產生任何影響，我希望這些撤離安置……我也要求花蓮縣政府對安置的、收容的以及撤離的要妥以照顧，需要任何的協助，中央應變中心會隨時予以支援，今天中午質詢結束之後，我會跟總統一起到中央應變中心再跟地方政府做密切的溝通，予以必要的協助。"],["何委員欣純：是，院長、大家都辛苦了，你辛苦了！中央應變中心一定要全力的來確保所有國人的安全，除了進駐花蓮之外，因為非洲豬瘟的關係，中央也進駐臺中，我現在擔心的是什麼？臺中市為了因應非洲豬瘟，這個廚餘的問題一直沒有辦法解決，所以臺中市在原縣區挖了12處的大型土坑來傾倒廚餘，現在很多市民擔心的是什麼？那些土坑、那些廚餘坑現在碰到颱風來了，會不會造成傷害？這個廚餘可能造成廢水的溢流、外流，危及到環境跟水源，還有會影響到民眾的健康，甚至這些土坑的土堤會不會潰堤，這個其實都需要中央來協助。","請院長看一下，我這裡有幾張照片要給你看，現在臺中市政府說它因應颱風的措施是蓋帆布、壓石頭，圍籬也是簡單的圍籬，這個是我們昨天在現場照到的照片，院長覺得這個可以止得住、抵擋得住颱風的侵襲嗎？這樣子的防護措施夠嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：廚餘在緊急狀況下，用這種掩埋的方式是非常不安全的，但是在救急的情況下，那幾天是特別要這樣做，已經請環境部要求地方的環保局、環保單位一定要確實做到覆土，50、30公分這樣來覆土，那一定要做到，這個是基本的安全而已，但是強風一來，可能會造成其他的傷害。"],["何委員欣純：院長，你曾經3次到臺中來視查，而且你也去視察過文山掩埋場，所以第一時間中央有要求地方政府要做好你剛剛講的緊急措施，30公分、50公分這樣的標準，但是市民擔心的是這些坑挖了之後，其周遭的防固跟防護如果遇到颱風強風暴雨的侵蝕、沖刷之下，這些泥土會不會隨著雨水流到周邊市民的社區裡面？這是第一個。","第二個是廚餘的水，因為水分是很多的。那時候因為救急，所以底層的防護布並沒有按照中央的要求，甚至市民很擔心可能連防護底層的那一層帆布都沒有，在這樣的情況之下，颱風又來了，到底會不會造成危害？我覺得請院長要要求，第一個是要求環境部……"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經跟環境部說過，希望它跟地方政府要求能夠事先做到的、目前可以做的防護措施要儘量完成，但因為今天彭部長不在這裡，陳部長知道這部分，請農業部來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員很簡單的說明：第一個部分是為了因應防颱，他們蓋的帆布用石頭壓是壓不住的，所以有要求他們從四邊去拉錨釘，往下釘；第二個部分是圍籬的部分，最主要是防止野山豬來吃廚餘，我們經過覆土，又把它加高，本來是30公分，變成50公分，至於圍籬或是微電網的部分，我想環境部都已經去查過了，微電網是沒什麼問題的，現在就是帆布的部分，擔心如果被風吹走，雨水下去以後會導致有一些類似泥土被沖刷而往下移的情況，這個部分環境部都會隨時監控。"],["何委員欣純：好，我希望院長要要求環境部跟農業部等相關部會，監控部分要協助地方政府嚴格到位，因為這是市民的健康安全問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：關於水源的部分，因為有一個洞是離烏溪比較近，我們會請……"],["何委員欣純：對，就是霧峰那一個掩埋場，它的……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們會請同仁……"],["何委員欣純：它的下面就是烏溪。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，會注意那個部分。"],["何委員欣純：這個要請經濟部水利署等水利單位要嚴密監控，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們會。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，全臺灣比較有風險的22個掩埋場，林保署都有架設監視器，監視器如果看到有一些不對勁的時候，隨時會通知地方政府。"],["何委員欣純：好。最後又是一個民生問題，是關於雞蛋，剛剛聽到部長有回答其他委員，我只問兩個問題，現在已經下架有問題的牧場雞蛋，但其他牧場安全嗎？第二個，還有3萬顆的散裝雞蛋不知去向，農業部有掌握狀況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這個案子一出來，由地方政府提報了以後，第一時間食安辦、衛福部、農業部就啟動了聯合查訪，在11月6號的時候，我們就到現場去看牧場本身的飼料跟雞蛋，現在看起來是沒問題的，這可能是單一事件的環境污染，在確認污染源找到之前，我們不會再讓這個牧場的蛋能夠上市，這是第一個。第二個，全臺灣其他的地方，因為過去每一年衛福部跟農業部都有去追查，包括牧場的、市面的都沒有什麼問題。"],["何委員欣純：OK，所以是單一個案？"],["陳部長駿季：單一個案。"],["何委員欣純：好，希望食安一定要守護好，拜託各位，好不好？拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位陳亭妃委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳亭妃書面質詢：","案由：本院陳亭妃委員，鑒於近期國際情勢動盪，美國疊加關稅及232條款衝擊我國出口外銷競爭力甚鉅。另今年國內遭遇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江副院長 卓院長 各位先進有請卓院長請卓院長備選賴文豪院長你早我看你今天有點火氣不過我先講一下我沒有請你回答不要回答好不好"},{"start":41.62,"end":60.317,"text":"讓我話講完你再回答那麼今天看到你面對媒體問你說王世堅點名 王委員點名說你來選台北市長你用俏皮的說是你選一次回答我是覺得你被王世堅吃豆腐王世堅另外一句話講什麼95%講完連任"},{"start":64.813,"end":86.156,"text":"他的吟下詩意就是他推薦鄭麗君推薦左龍泰當炮灰你當然不要當炮灰啊我這樣講法對吧要問王委員本身對不對你不要問我啊我怎麼知道你同意不同意就是王委員這種講法就是吃你豆腐啊"},{"start":87.688,"end":99.521,"text":"他都說95%一定是蔣萬安當選連任王委員的意思王委員的意思要問他要問我的話第一個我不會是炮灰我也不會是豆腐"},{"start":100.64,"end":123.145,"text":"被吃豆腐啊 我都替你難過一個院長被吃豆腐他跟你說 家族5%一定是蔣安安當選我不要選 他不要當炮灰他講其他理由 推薦一個叫鄭麗君或者朱龍泰好啦 你不好回答就不要回答了但是 我告訴你你被吃豆腐 因為你要當炮灰然後我們來看"},{"start":124.665,"end":146.633,"text":"現在來講 大家很關心的 總預算還沒有勿違啊你一直講說你不要當違憲的院長 言猶在耳當初我們在推說普發現金一萬你也說違憲 後來你也發了啊你也發了啊 我們來看喔我們經過法律的調整我沒有請你回答 不要回答"},{"start":148.069,"end":159.309,"text":"我們你依法不依法編列三讀通過的軍人加薪給志願役加薪我們這麼多武器我們讓你希望我們的"},{"start":160.256,"end":180.405,"text":"支援你的人越來越多而且現在的一個邊縣比八成左右而且有1.2萬的人他寧願被罰他都不要當兵啦 灰暗啦 怕死啦對不對 結果警消退休預算也通過了 你也不要影響是什麼 現在卡住囉"},{"start":181.987,"end":201.085,"text":"總預算卡住了卡住了我們要呼籲嘛那我們跟美國不一樣美國今天的國會美國的政府關門了關門40天他解套了因為他們沒有像台灣這麼厲害我們的憲法我們這裡法律很厲害"},{"start":202.463,"end":230.105,"text":"新的預算沒有通過 或預算沒有通過舊的可以用好了 但新的不可以用哪幾個不會增加經濟部今天增加383億國花費只有增加0.6億農業部增加49億國防部增加938但是如果加上特別預算國防部增加的是3000億之多你講過一句話"},{"start":231.707,"end":258.2,"text":"這句我覺得是對的你說我要找韓院長找立法院韓院長來溝通一下是不是解決一個看一個怎麼樣有一個solution請問你到現在為止有找韓院長嗎我跟韓院長在重要的時刻我們都有溝通如果針對委員所提的這件事情我認為我在總諮詢結束的前後應該跟韓院長有正式的一個談話大概什麼時候"},{"start":259.813,"end":284.027,"text":"總諮詢結束的前後下禮拜就結束了對啊 那也要看韓院長的時間啊儘快齁 奇怪 照理講是你們要擠啊我們替你擠啊 奇怪咧如果韓院長同意啊如果韓院長同意 我也想請委員一起來參加我跟你講啊 院長啊你要逼我們擠啊 現在怎麼說我們在擠呢我們覺得不忍這個國家整個停擺美國就停擺了40天"},{"start":287.453,"end":299.027,"text":"10%以上的航班整個都是霧點他的圖書館沒有人管這個公園沒有人管很慘但我們因為我們的法律訂的比較好"},{"start":300.089,"end":327.031,"text":"舊的預算可以用新的沒問題所以以前也有發生過啊到去年的4月5月重預算才通過這不是不好啦我希望院長我們一起來努力好不好大家努力啦你要做一個守規矩的院長啦你不要動不動講違憲違憲不違憲不是你的權利也不是你講的算因為我在講你剛回答了前面的委員說這個違憲我不要當違憲院長"},{"start":337.139,"end":351.791,"text":"後來經過我們修正啊經過行政院修正之後那是依照行政院的版本再發的我們請那個部長一起來哪一位部長經濟部長美國關稅的下一步"},{"start":360.044,"end":387.336,"text":"總統說台美談判會有好的進展那是10月22號快一個月囉昨天我到委員會問了我們公務部長哇他這個很會打太激情的樣子打太激情了我說什麼時候可以搞定台美關稅不要20加N不要疊加什麼時候可以搞定公務員長說快了快了我先問左院長什麼時候可以搞定左院長"},{"start":388.072,"end":406.104,"text":"我們都有 什麼時候可以搞定我們雖然都沒有到美國我們都有實際參與整個作業我們認為現在已經到了最後的階段因為全世界也剩下台灣這句話一個月以前就說過了我跟你講美國政府停擺你也知道的你也知道美國政府停擺所以他很多事情也停下來了"},{"start":406.784,"end":426.131,"text":"那個高層沒有停擺啦齁 你不要隨便亂講你看喔 我們是最早跟美國談的四個國家之一齁 我唱咧齁 台灣你看喔 我讚咧全市民 到現在咕咕咕啊 人家都定了韓國定了 日本定了 台灣沒有定了"},{"start":427.212,"end":438.864,"text":"有一個說法是說那川習會之後才定那APEC他們見面呢也沒有定難道要等到明年4月才定喔他們明年4月才會見面呢難道是這樣子嗎"},{"start":439.847,"end":455.558,"text":"台美雙方都希望能夠盡快的把盡快是什麼時候?年底可以嗎?這個不是我方一方的意願我說我算個時間這個結果是什麼?像剛剛委員說我跟海運長見面我可以說我有個期待的時間但跟美方不能說我方算個時間你可以啦這個是買方市場賣方市場"},{"start":458.9,"end":483.888,"text":"我們會努力盡快 我跟委員承諾 努力盡快 而且最近應該會有一些進展我們來談最近 最近是什麼 什麼叫最近英文叫Listening 你知道最近你告訴我什麼時候叫最近 我們來看喔我們來看 你們要談的結果是什麼傳統產業 比如說工具機 將近5%Plus 20等於25 很辛苦"},{"start":485.469,"end":488.051,"text":"郭志輝部長有說除了關稅以外對傳統產業最重要是匯率"},{"start":512.708,"end":534.736,"text":"他心目中希望能夠三十一業者我去打聽了希望三十四部長你要不要講一下你心目中要不要跟郭志輝一樣三十一雖然那個是央行的職者職權但是你總是有一個主觀的期待吧替我們中小企業替我們的傳統產業講講話他們真的很辛苦"},{"start":536.276,"end":551.75,"text":"匯率你心目中有沒有一個政府官員不適合談匯率怎麼不適合 郭部長就在這裡講31啊我們只能講說匯率要保持穩定不要波動太大 短期間不要波動太大"},{"start":552.25,"end":576.135,"text":"因為傳統產業講說要34%比較好阿以後你講32% 他講31%現在多少你知道嗎 現在多少現在費率也差不多算穩定現在多少你知道嗎30塊8 30塊9吧 左右30點多 將近31%啦穩定 長期穩定就好你講31%是很安全啦 你怎麼不敢講呢我這整個是市場在決定的喔 第二個 第二個現在"},{"start":579.256,"end":600.204,"text":"美國最高法院審理川普的關稅案川普可能輸喔你現在看到不管這個大法官是來自於藍的紅的就是民主黨或者共和黨他們基本上都認為川普違憲他要賠20兆美金請問部長"},{"start":602.967,"end":630.246,"text":"或者院長有沒有想過我們廠商這段時間從8月開始20加N 20加N一直課我們原來大概只有2%幾%而已有的5%我們能不能回到原來當然這個錢不是全部全部進口商付但是我們也付一部分出口商付一部分比如說要課20塊進口商10塊出口商10塊"},{"start":634.636,"end":639.928,"text":"我們能不能去跟他要貨啦 可不可以公民報的兩件事第一個這個對等關稅是美國對全世界普遍性的不是單對我國"},{"start":641.363,"end":670.51,"text":"所以我們要脫離這樣神奇的秩序目前來看當然是困難的再來你要回到過去那種個位數的關稅現在各國看起來也沒有這樣的情況有 我要告訴你如果川普被判違憲三個結果第一個結果不溯及計畫可能就拿走了就拿走了這個川普想要的是這樣拿走拿走第二個部分溯及計畫過去課的多少 拿一部分回來第三個全部溯及"},{"start":672.154,"end":687.256,"text":"這三個都可能發生 三個都可能發生那我現在就問你 你們做了沙盤推特別是經濟部長我看你這一副 我都不知道啊沒有 報告委員 事實上以川普政府來講的話 雖然他"},{"start":688.918,"end":717.077,"text":"我們不知道他們大法官會怎麼判但是他還有其他的工具包括232他很多的項目已經搬到232去了他還有301所以我們還是要做好準備我們提升我們的競爭力比較重要你自動要講啊你故意給我歐陵稅都我問你說我們已經被他課的關稅能不能把要點回來替廠商要點回來幫廠商一點忙你說沒有回答問題啊沒有 他們最高法院都還沒有判啊"},{"start":718.057,"end":745.391,"text":"你準備好沒有 你有沒有想過你有沒有想過我們政府可以幫忙要你回來假如可以給人家的話不是 他們最高法院判的話如果要緩緩就會緩緩啊他不見得都還給出口商我們出口商不一定拿得到他是還給美國的進口公司知道吧 比如說比如說就是Amazon"},{"start":747.817,"end":753.042,"text":"或者是Costco或者是什么Walmart它是还给Walmart"},{"start":754.489,"end":781.131,"text":"因為沃瑪進來的時候我們已經付一部分他也付一部分所以全部他拿走我們要不要這個沃瑪幫助廠商把他拿一點回來我是問你這個如果是這樣的話我們當然會協助廠商爭取他的權益請問你請問我就在院長面前了齁可不可以責成經濟部啊這個事情先做一個事先的規劃一下如果川普"},{"start":782.276,"end":790.948,"text":"足了他們要緩緩關稅部分也好全部也好我們經濟部怎麼樣引領可以嗎一個禮拜一個計畫提出來可以嗎可不可以"},{"start":794.793,"end":820.111,"text":"我們現在第一個掌握是說原來多少在對等關稅的他已經移到232那個部分將來如果世襲有一個判決的結果會不會影響這部分如果川普關稅他輸了我們的因應報告可以吧兩個部分一個就是原來在對等關稅他已經要移到232將來這個判決之後有結果出來會不會連232這個也會影響這是一個部分你講的可不可以告訴我們部長"},{"start":820.971,"end":846.602,"text":"第一個部分就是部長說的第一個部分就是部長說的那在這裡面他依照判決的結果我方一定要爭取我們在上面行為上有利的條件再簡單一點啦兩個禮拜以內提出這樣的報告或者你上網讓外界看得到可以嗎報告委員可以嗎可以嗎我問你可以嗎我是覺得啦在他們美國大法就是最高法院還沒有判決之前我們出這樣的報告"},{"start":847.586,"end":871.82,"text":"是不是會影響到...好 那判決之後兩個禮拜以內 提出報告可以嗎可以可以 上網 判決以後兩個禮拜內上網好 我們來看 今天媒體有寫到中油弊案說中油的高層說錢太多你們盡量的福報我們農業部長一起上來好不好農業部長一起上來可以嗎請 陳部長"},{"start":873.674,"end":901.911,"text":"總有的你們要不要一起查一下立案去查一下可以嗎他說錢太多事實上113年的時候就是之前已經有查了有沒有這回事有人提到政風已經查過一次了沒有這回事但是現在有新的事證我們會再查一次我最後請農業部長講一下獨彈的"},{"start":903.302,"end":929.236,"text":"我們現在那個源頭在哪裡 現在找不到啊源頭在哪裡 告訴我們 趕快 20幾秒我跟委員說明 現在初步看起來是一個單一的個案因為分埔泥本身是殺蟲劑那基本上它不能用在機制上面但是可能是旁邊因為有農田那我們現在正在瞭解然後現在總共有4批的這些雞蛋那這些雞蛋全部下架除了彰化以外 其他地方可能也有"},{"start":930.475,"end":934.918,"text":"除了藏外以外 其他地方也有 有沒有可能都沒有 其他因為我們例行好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時3分）謝謝主席江副院長、卓院長、各位先進，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長早。我看你今天有點火氣，不過我要先講一下，如果我沒有請你回答，你就不要回答好不好？讓我把話講完以後你再回答。今天媒體問你王世堅委員點名你來選臺北市長這件事，你俏皮的回答每4年都會去選一次，我覺得你被王世堅吃豆腐。王世堅講的另外一句話是什麼？就是95%會是蔣萬安連任，他的言下之意就是他推薦鄭麗君、推薦卓榮泰來當炮灰，你當然不要當炮灰啊！我這樣的講法對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要問王委員，因為是他本身的意見，你不要問我，我怎麼知道？"],["賴委員士葆：我說就是要讓你當炮灰，你同意我講的嘛！對不對？你同不同意？就是王委員的這種講法是吃你豆腐啦！對不對？他都說95%一定是蔣萬安當選連任啊！所以他點名你就是當炮灰啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員的意思要問他，如果要問我的話，第一個，我不會是炮灰，我也不會是豆腐。"],["賴委員士葆：你被吃豆腐啊！我都替你難過，一個院長被吃豆腐，他跟你說95%一定是蔣萬安當選，他不要選，他不要當炮灰，他還講了其他理由，推薦一個叫鄭麗君或者卓榮泰，好啦！你不好回答就不要回答了，但是我告訴你，你被吃豆腐，因為你要當炮灰。","我們來看現在大家很關心的總預算還沒有付委，你一直講你不要當違憲的院長，言猶在耳，當初我們在推普發現金一萬，你也說違憲，後來你也發了，我們來看……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們經過法律的調整。"],["賴委員士葆：我已經講了，我沒有請你回答，不要回答。你不依法編列三讀通過的軍人加薪，給志願役加薪，我們買這麼多武器，當然希望我們志願役的人越來越多，現在的編現比八成左右，而且有1.2萬人寧願被罰都不要當兵，危險啦，怕死啦！對不對？結果警消退休預算也通過了，你也不要，影響的是什麼？現在卡住囉！總預算卡住了，我們要復議。我們跟美國不一樣，美國的政府關門了，關門40天，他解套了，因為他們沒有像臺灣這麼厲害，我們的憲法、我們這裡的法律很厲害，新的預算沒有通過，舊的可以用，但是新的不可以用，哪幾個部會增加？經濟部增加383億，國發會只有增加0.6億，農業部增加49億，國防部增加938億，但是如果加上特別預算，國防部整個增加的是3,000億之多。你講過一句話，這一句話我覺得是對的，你說你要找立法院韓院長來溝通一下，看怎麼樣有一個solution，請問你到現在為止有找韓院長嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟韓院長在重要的時刻，我們都有溝通，如果針對委員所提的這件事情，我認為我在總質詢結束的前後應該跟韓院長有一個正式的談話。"],["賴委員士葆：大概什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：總質詢結束的前後。"],["賴委員士葆：下禮拜就結束了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，那也要看韓院長的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：儘快！照理講是你們要急，我們替你急啊！奇怪了，錢是你們在用的。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果韓院長同意，我也想請委員一起來參加。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，院長，你要比我們急，現在怎麼是我們在急呢？我們不忍整個國家停擺，美國就停擺了40天，10%以上的航班都誤點，他的圖書館沒有人管，公園沒有人管，很慘！但因為我們的法律訂得比較好，舊的預算可以用，新的沒通過沒關係，所以以前也有發生過，有到隔年的4月、5月總預算才通過，這個都不好啦！我希望院長要做一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來努力，好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：院長，大家來努力，你要做一個守規矩的院長，你不要動不動就講違憲，違憲不違憲不是你的權力，也不是你講的算，因為我再講，你剛剛回答了前面的委員說，這個違憲，我不要當違憲院長，很有氣魄，不要忘了，普發現金一萬，開始你也說違憲，後來你也發了。"],["卓院長榮泰：後來經過我們的修正，經過行政院修正之後，那是依照行政院的版本在發的。"],["賴委員士葆：虛話我都不愛聽。請部長一起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一位部長？"],["賴委員士葆：經濟部長。"],["主席：請龔部長備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：美國關稅的下一步，總統說臺美談判會有好的的進展，那是10月22日，快一個月囉！昨天我到委員會問了我們的龔部長，他很會打太極拳，我問什麼時候可以搞定，臺美關稅不要20%加N、不要疊加，什麼時候可以搞定？龔院長說快了、快了，我現在問卓院長，什麼時候可以搞定？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以搞定？"],["卓院長榮泰：對！我們雖然都沒有到美國，我們都有實際參與整個作業，我們認為現在已經到最後的階段，因為全世界也剩下臺灣等幾個國家。"],["賴委員士葆：這句話一個月以前就說過了，我跟你講，一開始……"],["卓院長榮泰：美國政府停擺，你也知道的啊！你也知道美國政府停擺，所以他很多事情也停下來。"],["賴委員士葆：那個不會停擺、高層沒有停擺，你不要隨便亂講。你看我們是最早跟美國談的四個國家之一，當時多厲害，你看臺灣多讚啊！前四名。到現在人家都確定了，韓國定了、日本定了，臺灣沒有定。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：還有一個說法是川習會之後才定，APEC他們見面了，也沒有定，難道要等到明年4月才定，他們明年4月才要再見面，難道是這樣子嗎？請回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺美雙方都希望能夠儘快把……"],["賴委員士葆：儘快是什麼時候？年底可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不是我方單方的意願，說我算個時間……"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛，這個結果是什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：像剛剛委員說我跟韓院長見面，我可以說我有一個期待的時間，但在美方不能說我方算個時間，美國政府……"],["賴委員士葆：你可以啦！這個是買方市場、賣方市場，現在來講，美方姿態那麼高……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員承諾，我們會努力儘快，而且最近應該會有一些進展。"],["賴委員士葆：你說最近，最近是什麼時候？什麼叫最近？英文叫recently，你告訴我什麼時候叫最近？我們來看，你們沒有談的結果是什麼？在傳統產業，比如說，工具機將近5%，關稅plus 20%，等於25%，這很難過欸！很難過欸！經濟部長還在經濟委員會裡面吹牛，說我們針對傳統產業要形成大的產業控股公司，問題是他們現在苦哈哈，你先幫他們解決這個問題吧！","我就問，郭智輝部長有說過，除了關稅以外，對於傳統產業最重要的是匯率，他心目中希望能夠31，我去打聽了，業者希望是34。部長，你要不要講一下，你心目中要不要跟郭智輝一樣是31？雖然那是央行的職責、職權，但你總是有一個主觀的期待吧！替我們中小企業、替我們的傳統產業講講話，他們真的很辛苦，對匯率，你心目中有沒有一個譜？有沒有？"],["龔部長明鑫：政府官員不適合談匯率，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼不適合？郭部長就在這裡講31啊！怎麼不適合？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們只能講匯率要保持穩定，不要波動太大，短期間不要波動太大，事實上，業者也要求這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：他就講31，因為傳統產業講34比較好，有人講32，他講31。現在是多少，你知道嗎？現在多少？"],["龔部長明鑫：現在匯率也差不多算穩定。"],["賴委員士葆：現在多少，你知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：30塊8、30塊9左右。"],["賴委員士葆：三十點多，將近31啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：長期穩定就好。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你講31也是很安全啊！你怎麼不敢講呢？問一問都不敢講。"],["龔部長明鑫：這是市場在決定的，並不是我們在決定的。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，現在美國最高法院審理川普的關稅案，川普可能輸喔！因為現在看到，不管大法官是來自於藍的、紅的，就是民主黨或者共和黨，他們基本上都認為川普違憲，他要賠20兆美金。請問部長或者院長有沒有想過，我們廠商這段時間，從8月開始20%加N、20%加N，一直課，我們原來大概只有2%、幾趴而已，有的5%，我們能不能回到原來的狀況，當然這個錢不是全部進口商付，但是我們也付了一部分，出口商付一部分，比如說要課20塊，進口商10塊、出口商10塊，我們能不能去跟他要回來，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，兩件事，第一個，對等關稅是美國對全世界普遍性的，不是單對我國，所以我們要脫離這個全世界的秩序，以目前來看，當然是困難的。再來，你要回到過去那種個位數的關稅，現在各國看起來也沒有這樣的情況，委員也是清楚的。"],["賴委員士葆：有！我現在告訴你，如果川普被判違憲有三個結果：第一個結果，不溯及既往，課了就拿走，這是川普想要的，拿走就拿走了；第二個，部分溯及既往，過去課了多少，拿一部分回來；第三個，全部溯及，這三個都有可能發生。"],["卓院長榮泰：都有可能。"],["賴委員士葆：三個都可能發生。我現在就問你，你們有沒有做沙盤推演？特別是經濟部長，我看你一副都不知道啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有。報告委員，事實上，以川普政府來講，雖然我們不知道他們大法官會怎麼判，但是他還有其他的工具，包括232，他很多項目已經搬到232去了，他還有301。所以我們還是要做好準備，提升我們的競爭力比較重要。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你雞同鴨講，你故意給我「黑龍繞桌」。我問你的是，我們已經被他課的關稅能不能要一點回來，替廠商要一點回來，幫廠商一點忙，你都沒有回答問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，他們最高法院都還沒有判，還不知道要怎麼判。"],["賴委員士葆：你要先準備，你準備好了沒有？就是你有沒有想過我們政府可以幫忙要一點回來？假如可以給人家的話？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，他們最高法院判的話，如果要返還就會返還啊！"],["賴委員士葆：他不見得都還給商廠喔！我們出口商不一定拿得到，他是還給美國的進口公司，知道吧！所以比如說Amazon或者是Costco，或者是Walmart，他是還給Walmart，因為Walmart進來的時候，我們已經付一部分，他也付一部分，所以全部Walmart拿走，我們要不要幫助廠商，把他拿一點回來？我是問你這個。"],["龔部長明鑫：如果是這樣的話，我們當然會協助廠商……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這個機制？"],["龔部長明鑫：爭取他的權益。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，我就在院長面前，可不可以責成經濟部這個事情先做一個事先的規劃一下？如果川普輸了，他們要還我們關稅，部分也好，全部也好，我們經濟部怎麼樣因應，一個禮拜把這個計畫提出來可以嗎？可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在第一個掌握的是，原來多少在對等關稅的已經移到232的部分，將來如果有一個判決的結果，會不會影響這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！我是要你們做一個評估報告，如果川普關稅輸了，我們的因應報告可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個部分，一個就是原來的對等關稅，他已經要移到232……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：將來這個判決之後有結果出來，會不會連232這個也會影響，這是一個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：你講的可不可以告訴我們部長，部長可不可以答應寫一個報告出來給我們，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個部分就是部長說的，在這裡面依照判決的結果，我方一定要爭取我們在商業行為上有利的條件。"],["賴委員士葆：那就再簡單一點，兩個禮拜以內提出這樣的報告，或者你上網讓外界看得到可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我是覺得在美國最高法院還沒有判決之前，我們出這樣報告是不是會影響到……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那判決之後，兩個禮拜以內提出報告可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，可以、可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：可以、可以。"],["賴委員士葆：上網喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：可以。"],["賴委員士葆：判決以後，兩個禮拜內上網。"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["賴委員士葆：我們來看今天媒體有寫到中油弊案，說中油的高層說錢太多，你們儘量地浮報……","農業部長一起上來好不好？農業部長一起上來可以嗎？"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員士葆：中油的，你們要不要去查一下？立案去查一下可以嗎？他說錢太多。"],["龔部長明鑫：事實上，113年的時候……就是之前已經有查了，去年就是有人……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這回事啦？有沒有這回事？"],["龔部長明鑫：有人提到政風已經查過一次了。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這回事？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有這回事，但是現在有新的事證，我們會再查一次。"],["賴委員士葆：好，再查。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，會再查。"],["賴委員士葆：我最後請農業部長講一下，毒蛋現在的源頭在哪裡？現在找不到，告訴我們源頭在哪裡？趕快！剩二十幾秒。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，現在初步看起來是一個單一個案，因為芬普尼本身是殺蟲劑，基本上它不能用在雞隻上面，但是可能旁邊因為有農田，我們現在正在了解，然後現在總共有4批雞蛋，這些雞蛋全部下架。"],["賴委員士葆：時間到了，除了彰化以外，其他地方可能也有，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：都沒有，因為我們每年例行大概檢測了兩、三百件都不會有這個……"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","黃捷委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員黃捷書面質詢：","一、電力區域均衡","我國目前電價是依據用戶身分別及是否採行時間電價，而有不同計算方式，對於不同區域別之用戶，並未採差異化計算，亦即台北市採非時間電價（累進電價）之一般住家，其電價計算方式與高雄市採非時間電價之一般住家並無二致，然而根據台電統計資料所示，六都以高雄市的電力自給率152.9%為最高，臺北市的電力自給率1.4%為最低，各縣市之間於發電及用電的責任及負擔顯不均衡。","再者，儘管蔡政府時期主導推動能源轉型、開發多元綠能，包括太陽光電及風力發電系統，惟就目前電網結構而言，仍高度仰賴少數大型發電廠，導致電力從發電端至用電端需經長程運輸，輸配電過程造成的線路損失量每年約有74.5億度，雖自1970年代起台電增加北部的電源開發計畫，然因區域尖峰電力供需不均，至今我國仍維持南電中送、中電北送的電力調度模式。","與此同時，大型發電廠在發電過程對周邊居民造成的健康風險或公安風險，及該縣市政府為保障民眾安全所付出之行政監督成本，卻未能於現有計價標準中被客觀考量，導致多數用電戶不需對發電過程衍生之健康及社會成本負責，而該風險卻由少數發電縣市獨自承擔，形成環境不正義。","爰建請行政院研議下列事項：","一、電費計價應基於環境正義，納入發電廠坐落縣市之健康成本、社會成本及行政監督成本等因素。","二、全力發展分散式電網，避免發電設施集中於少數縣市，達成發電自主、提高電力調度彈性，並減少輸配電之線路損失率。","三、鼓勵社區推動公民電廠，簡化行政流程及門檻，並優先輔導偏遠或易成孤島地區，提升其發電自主率，並結合儲能設施，強化社區電網韌性。","二、獸醫師倫理規範","據媒體報導，一名於臺中市執業的謝姓獸醫師，於苗栗縣內開設寵物繁殖場，且對其所飼養、繁殖犬隻進行非醫療目的之聲帶割除手術，後苗栗縣府雖依動物保護法開罰，但對於其擅自割除犬隻聲帶之不當行為，現行獸醫師法卻無罰則得以有效約束。","檢視現行動物保護法，對寵物飼主訂有飼養行為規範及相關罰則，目的係確保動物福利得以受到保障，然而與動物醫療行為相關的獸醫師法，卻未訂有獸醫師倫理規範來保障動物福利。舉本案為例，動物保護法第五條第二項第十一款，規定飼主除絕育外，不得對寵物施以非必要或不具醫療目的之手術，惟對於施以不當手術之獸醫師，獸醫師法卻無相關禁止規定或罰則。","爰建請行政院推動下列事項，包括：","一、研議修正獸醫師執業登記及繼續教育辦法，提高專業倫理課程之積分採計比重。","二、啟動獸醫師法修正，納入獸醫師相關倫理規範及相應罰則。","三、提升養豬場生物安全管理","農業部於110年推出四年期「因應貿易開放養豬產業全面轉型升級計畫」，俗稱「養豬百億基金」，用以改善我國養豬畜舍環境，並精進生物安全管理措施，輔導及補助項目包括建置新式整合型豬舍或相關設施、採用異地多地批次分齡飼養模式、導入自動化省工設備等，然截至113年12月為止，全國養豬場約為5,664場，卻僅完成1,923棟新式整合型豬舍、1,912場建置自動化省工設備、76場改採異地多地批次分齡飼養模式，且農民願意改善項目多集中於硬體設施，然而對於以空間區隔強化生物安全管理之異地多地批次分齡飼養模式，卻多採保守看待。","有鑑於我國周邊多為非洲豬瘟疫區，縱使邊境管理加嚴可減少豬瘟病毒從境外傳入之機會，然而落實生物安全管理措施，可有效建立疫病傳播斷點，減少病毒快速擴散之速度，對於我國控制疫病傳播將有莫大助益，爰建請行政院推動下列事項，包括：","一、重點輔導異地多地批次分齡飼養模式，強化生物安全隔離。","二、對於有續養意願之中小型養豬戶，提高其畜舍改建及設備補助額度，協助分擔設備投資成本。","三、對於即將退場且無轉型意願之老農戶，應加強協助其生物安全管理措施，降低整體養豬產業風險。"],["主席：報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時19分）","繼續開會（10時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_l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剛剛看到國民黨的委員非常的關心有關於違憲或者是合憲等等的問題我們造憲的立法院就是藍白立委占多數不知道院長知不知道在上個禮拜三禮拜四司法法治委員會在召委翁曉琳的排審之下"},{"start":46.919,"end":73.441,"text":"要針對停止年改這個法案他們以人數的多數其實現在已經送出委員會了我請這個院長來看一下現在這個最新的民調其實剛剛特別講到的就是現在立法院的狀況大家都知道藍白戰多數的情況底下沒有什麼法案他們不能過只有他們不想過想過的全部強度關山這已經是這一屆立法院來講已經是一個常態了"},{"start":74.662,"end":96.325,"text":"所以說我們來看一下在當時發生什麼狀況昭偉翁小林甚至於認為說充分討論是一個惡習所以限制了民進黨委員的發言要求一個人只能三分鐘但是以他們現在想要透過強度關山恢復過去所謂的軍公教年改的這種所謂反年改的"},{"start":97.186,"end":118.124,"text":"報告來講的話現在這個法條過關最新的民調當中有59%的人將近六成是願意繼續來做年改而只有31%的認為要停止如果在這個物價上漲要停止軍公教的替代率嗎也有五成認為不同意"},{"start":118.504,"end":141.038,"text":"原因就在於大家都知道我們今天這一組剛好是經濟組的質詢如果國庫破產它所造成的不只是世代不正義行業間的退休金不正義整個國家的財政也會拖垮所以說我不知道院長怎麼來看就是當藍白目前的規劃"},{"start":142.219,"end":152.424,"text":"我們的國戶真的負擔得起的嗎真的像國民黨的委員所講的只是提早四年破產對於國家沒有關聯是這樣嗎"},{"start":155.771,"end":174.335,"text":"所以任何法案的完成它除了必須遵守憲法的規定之外同時更應該考慮是國家的財政永續從2018年開始整個年改經過社會大家非常大的討論其實那時候正反方向的力量都很大但是當時選擇了一個"},{"start":176.576,"end":191.373,"text":"我們必須要走的一條路所以走到今天我們能夠稍稍看到整個國家財政能夠繼續的下去雖然未來他有可能有一天會遇到困難但是我們在之前有充裕的時間可以做更多的經濟努力更多的國人共識"},{"start":192.074,"end":213.21,"text":"但是驟然把它停止讓它未來發生困難時往前提都會造成國家財政上重大的缺漏在目前為止我認為現在所行的制度是讓新的公務員有所保障已經退休的公務員生活也有所依靠應該是一個穩定的社會制度"},{"start":213.649,"end":240.166,"text":"好本席會特別拿民調出來就是國庫就是人民的納稅錢一旦如果遇到破產的狀況那就是拿全民的納稅錢來補雖然現在的立法院藍白佔多數但是不要忘了他們是民意代表必須以民意為依歸而本席在這裡特別提出來也是支持行政院院長剛剛卓院長您所講的那就是世代的正義很重要不能讓"},{"start":241.487,"end":260.356,"text":"現在的公務員面對擔憂也不能讓行業之間因為退休金的給付造成不公平另外一個本席所關注到的問題那就更可怕了因為我們今天當然是經濟組但是面對現在以藍白為多數尤其是最大的在野黨的黨主席"},{"start":260.936,"end":286.223,"text":"如果是配合中國在進行所謂的幫共諜洗白或者是洗歷史這件事情那麼這將是非常可怕的一個狀況喔其實之前就已經有媒體先報導了就是國民黨的現任主席鄭麗文要去所謂馬場町配合這個所謂的秋季而這個秋季是一個所謂的統戰團體所"},{"start":289.524,"end":316.743,"text":"舉辦的活動而中國可以說最近有一個大陸劇很夯中國劇很夯那麼他其實就是在講無時這一個人但是如果說今天無時是誰無時他是一個被列為所謂共諜而且是當時的蔣介石認為扎扎實實的共諜但現在這個共諜居然是由國民黨的黨主席去追思他"},{"start":317.543,"end":339.128,"text":"配合王滬寧所下立的社台系統都要學習無時的精神沒有想到第一個帶頭去配合學習無時精神的居然是國民黨的黨主席啊我在想如果蔣介石在慈湖地下有知可能都要爬出來跟鄭麗文拼個是非對錯"},{"start":340.148,"end":355.223,"text":"他認為的共諜當時可能讓中華民國差一點就被消失的無時現在居然是一個最大在黨的黨主席來去所謂祭拜他這個部分怎麼"},{"start":355.723,"end":376.737,"text":"院長你怎麼看你認為這個會不會就是一個所謂的統戰已經進入了台灣而且是扎扎實實的敵我不分配合中國的涉台中共的涉台系統在學習無時在幫忙共諜洗白在幫忙中國來設下他的史觀來洗台灣民眾"},{"start":378.689,"end":401.466,"text":"是的 根文報告 無時是共諜共諜的工作在當時就是消滅國民黨而且要把台灣完全的納於中國共產黨的統治當中也就是要用中國的共產黨的集權統治來取代國民黨的黨國體制而且要消滅國民黨"},{"start":403.109,"end":420.605,"text":"身為國民黨的主席應該了解歷史而且知道目前的現實中國的北京方面已經要求他的涉台人員要學習無時精神這個就是要加強最對台的統治所以"},{"start":421.506,"end":442.795,"text":"這樣的一個去參加活動的行為剛剛呼應了這樣一個加強對台要統戰的一個工作所以我認為保護中華民國跟保護台灣主權安全的這項工作在現在國民黨主席帶領之下的國民黨是不可能做到的但是政府要積極跟全國"},{"start":444.724,"end":470.173,"text":"民主自由的政黨跟國人一起努力合力把台灣2300萬的國人一起努力把台灣的主權安全護衛的責任要扛在我們自己的手上好 我非常認同院長這樣講喔因為就在鄭麗文去祭拜五十的同時禮拜五的深夜我們看到的是我們的蕭美琴副總統站上了國際舞台在歐中議會當中為台灣發聲"},{"start":472.734,"end":494.754,"text":"而就在這個同時的另外一邊台灣的國內如果在野黨的主席是在遵從所謂國台辦或者是王滬寧系統下令要來配合所謂的學習無時精神這真的會造成國際的錯亂所以我非常認同院長所講的那就是台灣堅守自由民主這一塊"},{"start":495.354,"end":514.933,"text":"而台灣就是台灣的這個部分其實是要讓全世界知道我那天也很感慨蕭副總統站上的是國際舞台國民黨的黨主席站上的是國共舞台這差太多了當我們在國際舞台上為台灣出聲的時候還有很多人在酸言酸語"},{"start":516.004,"end":537.957,"text":"但是這些人對於國民黨的主席站上國共舞台加強對台統戰的時候卻是沉默的不敢發出聲音這個就是台灣今天極大的一個社會的一個現象所以政府還是我強調那一句我們應該結合更多的自由民主認同的政黨跟國人一起堅守立場守護台灣的主權跟安全"},{"start":538.727,"end":561.338,"text":"我相信多數的國人也會非常認同院長所講的守護我們這一片的土地是要靠我們自己包括剛剛國民黨的委員不斷的在質疑國防預算的部分我也很希望這個他們只是堅守所謂立委監督而不是配合中國希望來降低台灣的國防自主的防衛的能力"},{"start":561.778,"end":582.057,"text":"但是另外有一個是我們一方面注意到的是中國正在透過洗歷史的方式正在進行思想的統戰或思想的滲透但是另外一個無聲的戰爭其實正在台灣那就是所謂的經濟滲透這個部分我可能就要請經濟部長一起上台來喔就是其實我們看到"},{"start":583.126,"end":610.605,"text":"中國透過無聲的中資入侵不斷的來進入入侵台灣的經濟市場台灣的經濟好 全民有感包括現在已經開始要普發一萬了但是如果這些經濟入侵沒有好好的去根本解決包括我們看到的佳麗大榮的這個所謂紅色的運輸倉儲鏈是不是滲透台灣還有太子集團的所謂九家工科公司來進行所謂的跨國洗錢"},{"start":612.206,"end":629.048,"text":"還有中資的全真瑜家館現在以這個中國企業規避百分之三十的門檻拋空台灣的企業還有今天剛好是11月11號我們所在乎的就是跨境電商中國是不是利用跨境電商包括免運"},{"start":629.929,"end":656.963,"text":"包括2000以下的這種所謂小額的這種所謂跨境電商免稅的方式正在侵襲臺灣的零售產業這些問題追根究柢其實真的都跟工部長有關而部長真的也必須要花心思來思考這一連串中國透過經濟滲透所造成影響臺灣的問題但是本席要來追的是一個我其實在這個會期特別已經質詢過"},{"start":661.046,"end":675.799,"text":"這個國安局跟退府會就是有關於這個加里大龍的部分加里大龍最近很紅為什麼因為在非洲豬瘟大家在防疫的時候這一間貨運公司居然公然的要規避有關於"},{"start":677.06,"end":704.642,"text":"在了疑似感染株枝這樣的貨運要規避調查所以被高雄市政府裁拔了300萬而這家公司他到底負責了哪些部分就是我們當時在做全民防衛任性的時候他在有關於醫療冷鏈的部分是由這一家公司來負責而當時我在詢問退府會的時候閻德發主委特別告訴我那就是未來"},{"start":706.243,"end":733.835,"text":"榮總的系統不會再跟這樣的家裡大榮具有中資背景的來做合作會在合約上加注而蔡明彥國安局長也在我質詢當中的時候特別點出來就是會把有關於家裡大榮具有中資背景以及後面他的母公司是跟中國的解放軍有其關聯的部分要交給經濟部那麼我現在就請"},{"start":735.315,"end":750.49,"text":"院長跟經濟部來看那就是加里大榮的部分確實他跟中國的解放軍尤其是空軍他簽署了軍民融合的戰略合作的決議言下之意加里大榮"},{"start":751.331,"end":774.743,"text":"他雖然現在進入了台灣市場但是他背後的母公司是有中資背景存在那麼在這個部分院長你怎麼看不要忘了這個有關於冷鏈供應鏈甚至於是我們的醫藥鏈對於如果戰爭的時候醫藥往哪裡送節點在哪裡配置在哪裡如果今天中國"},{"start":776.827,"end":783.126,"text":"進入台灣的所謂的醫療產業鏈甚至於運輸產業鏈這將是一個非常危險的事情"},{"start":784.017,"end":809.638,"text":"政府有義務保護所有合法在台灣設立公司的所有的商業行為那縱然他背後有任何的資金的疑慮他只要合乎我們的法律在這裡設立我們都有義務保護他的合法商業行為但是他如果他的行為經過我們的國安單位認為他已經觸犯了國安相當的疑慮那國安單位也寄出了所謂的這種禁令"},{"start":810.078,"end":826.208,"text":"或是要求我們提醒注意的話那我想政府機關則無旁貸我會要求政府機關在國安單位這樣的一個明確的調查清楚之後對於包括這家貨運公司在內如果真的屬實如此那我們一律禁止"},{"start":826.958,"end":848.86,"text":"我要特別請這個工部長來回答是因為我在10月8號10月15號分別都質詢了退府會跟國安局那麼我想問一下經濟部現在對於家裡的體系裡面的股權結構跟實質投資的來源有沒有啟動內部的重新調查分兩個層次來調查第一個我們現在重新檢視他的股權結構就像你講的"},{"start":849.761,"end":862.322,"text":"層次非常多可能會有規避的狀況即便是股權表面上如果看起來是沒有問題的話我們也會調查他是不是有實質控制權利"},{"start":862.987,"end":881.642,"text":"如果中國的黨政軍也好或者是中資有實質控制權力即便他只有一股的話那我們也會禁止把他當作是中資來辦第二個就是剛剛提到這些問題還沒有釐清之前我們就是剛剛提到比較敏感性的包括藥物還有"},{"start":882.743,"end":906.59,"text":"這些我們就暫停不讓他來運作就是不讓他來乘坐我們的物流最後我要提醒的就是有關於中資跟橋外資的重要的產業鏈投資的部分我也希望經濟部能夠重新來檢討因為有關於大陸地區人民來台投資的這個條例是在2012年釋定的而這個是正面表列就是可以投資哪些"},{"start":907.25,"end":930.736,"text":"另外有關於橋外資他是用負面表列的方式他是在2018年制定的就是列入哪些不可以投資但是不論是2012或是2018隨著現在整體的情勢國際的情況的不同我認為這兩個所謂的不論是正面表列或是負面表列都應該要重新來檢討"},{"start":937.779,"end":938.14,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時47分）謝謝主席。主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：好，請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長早安。剛剛看到國民黨委員非常關心違憲或合憲等的問題，我們知道現在立法院就是藍白立委占多數，不知道院長知不知道上個禮拜三、禮拜四，司法及法制委員會在召委翁曉玲的排審之下，針對停止年改的法案，在其人數多數的情況下，已經送出委員會了。我請院長看一下現在最新的民調，剛剛特別提到，現在立法院的狀況大家都知道，在藍白占多數的情況下，沒有什麼法案他們不能過，只有他們不想過，想過的全部都強渡關山，這已經是這一屆立法院的常態了，所以我們來看一下當時發生什麼狀況，召委翁曉玲甚至認為充分討論是一個惡習，所以限制了民進黨委員的發言，要求一個人只能3分鐘，但是以他們現在想要透過強渡關山的方式恢復過去所謂的軍公教年改，亦即所謂反年改法案，最新的民調顯示，59%、將近六成的人是願意繼續年改，只有31%的人認為要停止；如果因為物價上漲，要停砍軍公教的所得替代率，也有五成表示不同意，原因就在於大家都知道，我們今天這一組剛好是經濟組的質詢，如果國庫破產，所造成的不只是世代不正義、行業間的退休金不正義，整個國家的財政也會被拖垮，我不知道院長怎麼來看，就是以藍白目前的規劃，我們的國庫真的負擔得起的嗎？真的像國民黨的委員所講的，只是提早4年破產，對於國家沒有關聯，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以任何法案的完成，它除了必須遵守憲法的規定之外，同時更應該考慮的是國家的財政永續，從2018年開始，整個年改經過社會大家非常大的討論，其實那時候正反方向的力量都很大，但是當時選擇了一個我們必須要走的一條路，所以走到今天，我們能夠稍稍看到整個國家財政能夠繼續的下去，雖然未來它有可能有一天會遇到困難，但是我們在之前有充裕的時間可以做更多的經濟努力，更多的國人共識，驟然把它停止，讓它未來發生困難時間往前提，都會造成國家財政上重大的缺漏。在目前為止，我認為現在所行的制度，是讓新的公務員有所保障，已經退休的公務員生活也有所依靠，應該是一個穩定的社會制度。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席會特別拿民調出來就是國庫是人民的納稅錢，一旦遇到破產的狀況，那就是拿全民的納稅錢來補，雖然現在的立法院藍白占多數，但是不要忘了他們是民意代表，必須以民意為依歸，而本席在這裡特別提出來，也是支持行政院院長，剛剛卓院長您所講的，那就是世代的正義很重要，不能讓現在的公務員面對擔憂，也不能讓行業之間因為退休金的給付造成不公平。","另外一個本席所關注到的問題，那就更可怕了，因為我們今天當然是經濟組，但是面對現在以藍白為多數，尤其是最大在野黨的黨主席，如果是配合中國在進行所謂的幫共諜洗白，或者是洗歷史這件事情，那麼這將是非常可怕的一個狀況。其實之前就已經有媒體先報導了，就是國民黨的現任主席鄭麗文，要去馬場町配合所謂的秋祭，而這個秋祭是一個所謂的統戰團體所舉辦的活動。而中國可以說最近有一個大陸劇很夯，中國劇很夯，那麼它其實就是在講吳石這一個人，但是吳石是誰？吳石他是一個被列為所謂共諜，而且是當時的蔣介石認為扎扎實實的共諜，但現在這個共諜，居然是由國民黨的黨主席去追思他，配合王滬寧下令涉臺系統都要學習吳石的精神，沒有想到第一個帶頭去配合學習吳石精神的，居然是國民黨的黨主席啊！我在想如果蔣介石在慈湖地下有知，可能都要爬出來跟鄭麗文拼個是非對錯，他認為的共諜，當時可能讓中華民國差一點就被消失的吳石，現在居然是一個最大在野黨的黨主席來去所謂祭拜他，這個部分院長你怎麼看？你認為這個會不會就是一個所謂的統戰已經進入了臺灣，而且是扎扎實實的敵我不分，配合中國、中共的涉臺系統在學習吳石、在幫忙共諜洗白、在幫忙中國來設下他的史觀，來洗臺灣民眾？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。跟委員報告，吳石是共諜，共諜的工作在當時就是消滅國民黨，而且要把臺灣完全的納於中國共產黨的統治當中，也就是要用中國共產黨的集權統治，來取代國民黨的黨國體制，而且要消滅國民黨，身為國民黨的主席應該了解歷史，而且知道目前的現實，中國的北京方面已經要求他的涉臺人員要學習吳石精神，這個就是要加強對臺的統治，所以這樣一個去參加活動的行為，剛剛呼應了這樣一個加強對臺統戰的工作，所以我認為保護中華民國跟保護臺灣主權安全這項工作，在現在國民黨主席帶領之下的國民黨是不可能做到的，但是政府要積極跟全國民主自由的政黨、合力跟臺灣2,300萬的國人一起努力，把臺灣的主權、安全、護衛的責任扛在我們自己的身上。"],["林委員楚茵：我非常認同院長這樣講，因為就在鄭麗文去祭拜吳石的同時，禮拜五的深夜，我們看到的是蕭美琴副總統站上了國際舞臺，在歐洲議會當中為臺灣發聲；而就在這個同時的另外一邊、臺灣的國內，如果在野黨的主席是在遵從所謂國臺辦或者是王滬寧系統下令要來配合學習吳石精神，這真的會造成國際的錯亂。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員楚茵：所以我非常認同院長所講的，那就是臺灣堅守自由民主這一塊，而臺灣就是臺灣的這個部分，其實是要讓全世界知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我那天也很感慨，蕭副總統站上的是國際舞臺，可是國民黨的黨主席站上的是國共舞臺，這差太多了。當我們在國際舞臺上為臺灣出聲的時候，還有很多人在酸言酸語，但是這些人對於國民黨的主席站上國共舞臺、加強對臺統戰的時候，卻是沉默地不敢發出聲音，這個就是臺灣今天極大的社會現象。所以我還是強調那一句，我們應該結合更多認同自由民主的政黨，跟國人一起堅守立場，守護臺灣的主權跟安全。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我相信多數的國人也會非常認同院長所講的：守護我們這一片的土地是要靠我們自己。包括剛剛國民黨的委員不斷地在質疑國防預算的部分，我也很希望他們只是堅守所謂立委監督，而不是配合中國、希望降低臺灣國防自主的防衛能力。","另外，我們一方面注意到中國正在透過洗歷史的方式進行思想的統戰或思想的滲透，但是另外一個無聲的戰爭其實正在臺灣，那就是所謂的經濟滲透，就這個部分我可能就要請經濟部長一起上臺來。我們看到中國透過無聲的中資入侵，不斷地進入、入侵臺灣的經濟市場。臺灣的經濟好，全民有感，包括現在已經開始要普發1萬了，但是如果這些經濟入侵沒有好好地根本解決，包括我們看到嘉里大榮的紅色運輸倉儲鏈是不是滲透臺灣？還有太子集團透過9家空殼公司進行所謂的跨國洗錢；含有中資的全真瑜珈館現在以中國企業規避30%的門檻，掏空臺灣的企業；還有今天剛好是11月11號，我們所在乎的就是中國是不是利用跨境電商包括免運、包括2,000以下免稅的方式，正在侵襲臺灣的零售產業？這些問題追根究柢其實真的都跟龔部長有關，而部長也必須要花心思來思考這一連串中國透過經濟滲透所造成影響臺灣的問題。","本席要追的是，其實我在這個會期已經特別質詢過國安局跟退輔會有關於嘉里大榮的部分。嘉里大榮最近很紅，為什麼？因為大家在非洲豬瘟防疫的時候，這間貨運公司居然公然載了疑似感染豬隻的貨運，要規避調查，所以被高雄市政府裁罰了300萬。而這家公司到底負責了哪些部分？當時我們在做全民防衛韌性的時候，醫療冷鏈的部分是由這家公司負責，當時我在詢問退輔會的時候，嚴德發主委特別告訴我，未來榮總的系統不會再跟嘉里大榮這樣具有中資背景的合作，會在合約上加註。而國安局蔡明彥局長也在我質詢當中特別點出來，會把嘉里大榮具有中資背景及其背後母公司跟中國解放軍有關聯的部分交給經濟部處理。","我現在就請院長跟經濟部來看，那就是嘉里大榮的部分，確實它跟中國的解放軍──尤其是空軍有簽署了「軍民融合」戰略合作協議，言下之意，嘉里大榮雖然現在進入了臺灣市場，但是它背後的母公司是有中資背景存在，院長，你對這個部分是怎麼看？不要忘了，這個關於冷鏈、供應鏈甚至於我們的醫藥鏈，如果發生戰爭了，醫藥往哪裡送？節點在哪裡？配置在哪裡？如果今天中國資金進入臺灣所謂的醫療產業鏈甚至於運輸產業鏈，這將是一個非常危險的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：政府有義務保護所有合法在臺灣設立公司的商業行為，縱然在它背後有任何資金的疑慮，它只要是合乎我們的法律在這裡設立，我們都有義務保護它的合法商業行為。但是如果我們的國安單位認為它的行為已經有相當的國安疑慮，國安單位也祭出了所謂的禁令或是要求、提醒我們注意的話，那我想政府機關責無旁貸，我會要求政府機關，在國安單位有明確的調查清楚之後，包括這家貨運公司在內，如果真的屬實、確實如此，我們就一律禁止。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我要特別請龔部長來回答，因為我在10月8號、10月15號分別質詢了退輔會跟國安局，那麼我想問經濟部現在對於嘉里體系裡面的股權結構跟實質投資的來源有沒有啟動內部的重新調查？"],["龔部長明鑫：有，我們分兩個層次來調查，第一個，我們現在重新檢視它的股權結構，就像委員講的，因為它的層次非常多，可能會有規避的狀況。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：即便是股權表面上看起來沒有問題，我們也會調查在它背後是不是有實質控制權力，如果中國的黨政軍或中資有實質控制權力，即便是只有1股，我們也會禁止，把它當作是中資來辦。第二個，在這些問題還沒有釐清之前，我們對於剛剛提到的藥物等比較有敏感性的就暫停，不讓它來運作，就是不讓它來承作我們的物流。"],["林委員楚茵：好，最後我要提醒的就是有關於中資跟僑外資對重要產業鏈投資的部分，我希望經濟部能夠重新來檢討，因為大陸地區人民來臺投資的這個辦法是在2012年訂定的，而這個是正面表列，就是可以投資哪些事業。另外，有關於僑外投資，則是用負面表列的方式，是在2018年訂定的，就是列出哪些業別不可以投資。但是不論是在2012年或是2018年訂定的，隨著現在國際整體情勢的不同，我認為不論是正面表列或負面表列都應該要重新來檢討。那麼我也把這個課題交給經濟部，希望能夠一起來討論，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝，我們來檢討，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aacd47ef9d6a8b471385e1af54c489cd6258594ca32616fb4d8d5162d7c243163e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:31:43 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政院左院長請左院長備詢"},{"start":31.431,"end":32.616,"text":"燕國元好 院長早"},{"start":34.298,"end":59.467,"text":"院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦"},{"start":61.528,"end":87.413,"text":"那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說"},{"start":88.891,"end":100.396,"text":"中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的"},{"start":102.295,"end":125.062,"text":"請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了"},{"start":128.155,"end":143.666,"text":"2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣"},{"start":145.037,"end":164.554,"text":"85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始"},{"start":166.255,"end":187.389,"text":"在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機"},{"start":189.01,"end":216.537,"text":"偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件"},{"start":217.838,"end":233.13,"text":"還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表"},{"start":234.571,"end":237.313,"text":"所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫"},{"start":253.625,"end":266.877,"text":"細部的 計畫怎麼做 請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有25 26 31 32 3334到2034年 還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔 我希望他往前拉"},{"start":280.751,"end":306.922,"text":"你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說"},{"start":307.984,"end":322.532,"text":"用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的"},{"start":324.02,"end":338.474,"text":"裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃 計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組"},{"start":339.715,"end":364.631,"text":"這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦 沒有啦那個是允許的 法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的"},{"start":367.025,"end":385.634,"text":"那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度"},{"start":386.553,"end":410.989,"text":"目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎"},{"start":412.276,"end":435.285,"text":"還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦 打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井 沙鹿 烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說 安全啦 儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是 我跟你講"},{"start":436.924,"end":449.76,"text":"報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要"},{"start":450.458,"end":468.84,"text":"跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎"},{"start":470.868,"end":491.595,"text":"你沒有去嘛 你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒 那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊 那每天出入多少人啊對不對 所以我跟你講部長 我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料 光從111年"},{"start":494.025,"end":507.303,"text":"到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔 這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的"},{"start":509.045,"end":527.47,"text":"正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟"},{"start":528.446,"end":555.52,"text":"當然嘛 沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是 你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的"},{"start":556.457,"end":580.566,"text":"署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要"},{"start":583.735,"end":600.132,"text":"再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創"},{"start":601.033,"end":629.796,"text":"尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的"},{"start":630.436,"end":642.608,"text":"大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些"},{"start":648.373,"end":672.772,"text":"排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署"},{"start":673.413,"end":682.971,"text":"做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的"},{"start":683.71,"end":700.942,"text":"這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長 部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響"},{"start":704.502,"end":716.689,"text":"的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個"},{"start":718.857,"end":743.326,"text":"集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做"},{"start":743.971,"end":769.781,"text":"河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個"},{"start":772.913,"end":789.57,"text":"抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫"},{"start":791.766,"end":812.084,"text":"繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對"},{"start":814.446,"end":838.806,"text":"那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區"},{"start":840.376,"end":858.661,"text":"我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個"},{"start":860.101,"end":888.08,"text":"這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內"},{"start":889.241,"end":915.044,"text":"所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區"},{"start":915.925,"end":928.379,"text":"人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算"},{"start":945.92,"end":945.94,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（9時31分）主席、各位本院同仁及列席官員，大家早。主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長早。台中火力發電廠在我的選區，5支煙囪、10部燃煤機組，10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬瓩。依照經濟部的規劃，直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組，這個燃氣機組的部分，每部裝置容量為130萬瓩，所以6部總共是780萬瓩。","中火目前有這10部燃煤機組，為全國最大及全世界第四名的燃煤電廠。依照環境部公布的數據，中火是臺中市的排放大戶，PM2.5排放占臺中市固定污染源的13.5%；硫氧化物占臺中市的66.1%；氮氧化物排放占65.6%。說了這麼多，我們要看的就是，中火燃煤機組的拆除計畫，有沒有全面的拆除計畫？不要是零星的、不要片面的，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長能夠詳細說明。我知道，它是一個燃氣機組，幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組……"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有錯，裝置容量。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以一個燃氣機組蓋好之後，它會拆掉兩個燃煤機組。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們現在看到的是時間，確實在網路上面公告的時間是2025年要開始拆，2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，但問題是2025已經快結束了，我們要看到的是期程，不是只有時間、拆除計畫……"],["卓院長榮泰：是……"],["顏委員寬恒：其實我跟台電這邊索資已經一個禮拜了，如果有拆除計畫，應該早就在手上，不會拖了那麼久還沒有，表示沒有這個計畫，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們就是規劃在一期的兩部新的燃氣機組，因為新的燃氣上來以後……"],["顏委員寬恒：我知道，就是燃氣上來……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，燃氣上來以後……"],["顏委員寬恒：我們的燃煤才會除役。"],["龔部長明鑫：燃煤第一部、第二部就把它拆掉。第三、第四部備用。"],["顏委員寬恒：是沒有錯，你現在說的只有時間，就是沒有計畫。其實從一開始在地方跟民眾說明，台電拍胸脯保證說一氣換一煤，而且保證拆除，當時民眾、我們的鄉親為了要減少空污，讓這個政策可以趕快落實，所以也都相信了。但我們近期看到的是，高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機，偷偷重啟被抓包，對不對？另外，興達電廠……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是，那是緊急備用……"],["顏委員寬恒：它已經除役了耶！","另外，興達電廠三、四號機也是在半年前就重啟了，所以你現在跟人家講除役、備用，但還是重啟啊！所以沒有拆除的話，你跟民眾承諾，人家就不相信！"],["龔部長明鑫：備用只有在緊急的時候，上次大林也是短短的時間而已。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，就是因為這些事件還發生工安意外，所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾。你跟人家說除役，可是除役之後，緊急備用又偷偷重啟……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！只要……"],["顏委員寬恒：基於這樣的情況，民眾要看到的是拆除，可是我們看到你們提供的期程時間表……"],["龔部長明鑫：燃氣機組上來，穩定以後，就會逐漸汰除。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是沒有做嘛！現在已經是2025年11月，2026要來了，所以我在這邊是要請院長跟台電要求一個完整的拆除計畫，包括細部計畫怎麼做，請台電提供好不好？可不可以這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：好、好，我們會提供……"],["顏委員寬恒：可以嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：台電有很清楚的時程規劃。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我現在跟你講的就是，這些都查得到，上面也都有寫時間，但是並沒有做！"],["卓院長榮泰：我還要求不能到2034，要往前拉。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是！現在裡面有25、26、31、32、33、34耶！到2034年，還那麼多年耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：中間有空了好幾年，有空檔，我希望它往前拉。"],["顏委員寬恒：你說2025第一部機，現在還沒動啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：2034年會達成完全無煤嘛！但是之前的時程、就是它的程序，我們會做一些規劃，提供給委員參考。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，就是你們這些期程這樣子沒有辦法說服民眾，因為沒有看到作為嘛！說是2025，可是就還沒動啊！2025已經快要過完了耶！所以民眾質疑當初是用騙的，讓他們答應以燃氣換燃煤，其實我們要的是真正落實拆除，而不只是除役。所以院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，新的燃氣機組正在加緊裝置當中，只要新的燃氣機組好了，一、二號燃煤機組就會拆除，這有一定的……"],["顏委員寬恒：那你完整的計畫要出來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這沒有欺騙。"],["顏委員寬恒：我索資要不到資料嘛！如果你有計畫，計畫應該早就做好了啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們會儘快把它做出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的燃氣機組目前施工進度到什麼程度，應該先向委員報告。"],["顏委員寬恒：台電必須給出拆除計畫，臺中市民才能夠安心，不要口號，不要讓人家覺得，偷偷重啟的是你，說要拆除的也是你。"],["龔部長明鑫：那不是偷偷啦！沒有啦！那是法律上允許的啦！在緊急狀況的時候，它稍微運轉而已啦！現在沒有緊急狀況，平常它是不會運轉的。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來我要問的是，台中火力發電廠除了這些燃氣機組之外，未來還要增設天然氣儲氣槽，目前中火是不是有計畫要增加？這個部分有沒有計畫跟進度？現有的6座，加上在建的2座，還有通過的4座，所以臺中港區已經有12座儲氣槽。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在正在環評。"],["顏委員寬恒：在環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：在環評。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是台電的部分在環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：是臺中港接收站的部分整個在環評當中。"],["顏委員寬恒：環評有通過嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：還沒有？"],["顏委員寬恒：還沒有通過？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，還沒送出去，打算要送。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在臺中港區，包括龍井、沙鹿、烏日這一帶，整個海線的民眾都在擔心：到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽？到底安不安全？"],["龔部長明鑫：安全啦！安全啦！儲氣槽沒有發生過意外。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我跟你講，報告如果出來了，台電未來申請增設這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來的話，也要提供給本席辦公室。這是提醒啦！我在這邊提醒部長……"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們在送環評……"],["顏委員寬恒：就是一定要跟當地所有居民做一個良好的溝通……"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有，都有說明。"],["顏委員寬恒：不只是溝通，還要宣導未來可能的風險在哪裡、怎麼樣預防突發事件。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會設在居民附近，會在比較遠離居民的地方。"],["顏委員寬恒：你有到現場看過嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我……"],["顏委員寬恒：你沒有去嘛，怎麼知道遠離居民？"],["龔部長明鑫：看那個圖嘛！"],["顏委員寬恒：我們就生活在那個地方！我跟你講，臺中港區……"],["龔部長明鑫：臺中港我去過。"],["顏委員寬恒：像那個大型的outlet就在旁邊啊！每天出入多少人啊！對不對？所以我跟你講，我們要實地去瞭解！關於這些預防的事情，我跟台電要的資料，光從111年到現在，台電就有八起的工安事故，這是有通報的，包含未通報的，還不知道有多少，台電未來要在這邊興建多座的天然氣儲氣槽，再加上原有已經設置的、正在建的，再加上通過的已經有12座了，台電現在正在環評的要增加多少，這些東西都集中在臺中港區，每一次總質詢我都關心台電的狀況……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為以氣換煤的話，一定要有接收站跟……"],["顏委員寬恒：這當然嘛，沒有錯嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以臺灣的部分也不是全部集中在臺中……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，你們要增加……"],["龔部長明鑫：三接的觀塘也好，或是南部……"],["顏委員寬恒：你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽，降低供應中斷的風險，但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受，讓整個海線來承受，所以我說你事前的防範、事前的宣導，這個是最重要的，事前準備不可少啦，我們都不希望發生任何事故，但是如果一旦發生了，絕對不是小事情。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們一定會防範。"],["顏委員寬恒：民眾承受不起，沒有人可以承受，政府也承受不起，所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔，相關的配套一定要到位，不管是怎麼樣，安全的評估是第一，民眾的安全是第一，永遠比發電更重要。"],["龔部長明鑫：當然，環評委員也會考量。"],["顏委員寬恒：再來我再請教，今年7月份在臺中烏日海線發生了幾次豪大雨，不知道院長有沒有注意？但是對於當地的居民，由於2008年卡玫基颱風對於整個中臺灣的重創，尤其在大肚、烏日地區，水患非常嚴重，也造成了全國20人的死亡，損失無法估計，也造成很多家庭的破碎。所以對於當地的民眾來說，可以說是歷歷在目，那種悲慘的教訓，心中非常害怕。我跟臺中市水利局討論過相關的案件，透過資料，我們知道所有抽水站的運作都是正常的，大里溪、烏溪部分，包括樹王埤抽水站、五張犁抽水站、中興抽水站、湖日抽水站、光明抽水站等等，抽水量都正常，但是我們發現問題了，這些排水出去的河川，它的水位比淹水地區還高，已經高過淹水區，所以等於抽水抽出來，水要排出去卻排不出去，包括大肚區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況，之前南部的風災、水災也是這樣的狀況。所以我在這邊要請院長，是不是請經濟部跟部長要求水利署做一個通盤的檢討？針對全國國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的，這整個河川流域，我們都要做全體的規劃，可不可以？院長、部長？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。因為這一次的七二八豪雨的確是比平常大很多，我們治水的平均標準都超過，的確是這樣，這個當然是氣候變遷的影響，我們現在的確也因為這樣，院長給我們4年1,000億來協助地方政府所有整治治水的部分，縣市管河川，還包括集水區的逕流分擔，或者是滯洪池的部分，我們會全部盤點起來。現在有關於臺中的部分，在2025年11月10日，我們經過審查以後，如果是公有地的部分，我們會先來施作，因為私有地還是要徵收，但是公有的部分，如果可以做逕流分擔的部分，我們就先做。"],["顏委員寬恒：河川流域大多數都是公有地、都是河川地，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，幾乎……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以你怎麼會這麼說。","現在颱風又到了，鳳凰颱風現在對臺灣又產生新的威脅，所以這個事情不是我們現在講，你們現在才回應，而是應該事前就要準備、預防，像是我剛剛提到的烏日、大肚地區，光是這兩處就有好多處是抽水排放的河川水位高於淹水區，所以這部分不是只有臺中會發生，各地都在發生，都呈現出來了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，經濟部水利署一直有準備，所以剛剛部長所說的，就是未來4年，我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫，為什麼有做到……繼續將這個地方，比方說滯洪池增加，事實上過去為什麼有做到……"],["顏委員寬恒：預算規模……"],["卓院長榮泰：前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式、移動式的抽水站。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，我知道嘛！移動式抽水站是沒有錯，是可以調度，但是大型抽水站本身就有需求，所以才會根據整個河川的流量、排水量去設計抽水站，對不對？移動式的抽水站當然也要再增加，在事情發生的當下，由指揮中心來調度，這都是合理的。"],["龔部長明鑫：這個本來就有在做，所以為什麼……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在我講的是水位已經高過淹水區，那它要怎麼抽？再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以為什麼要逕流分擔就是這樣，沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區。"],["顏委員寬恒：請院長、部長一定要把關心放在這裡，因為我們禁不起再發生……"],["龔部長明鑫：了解，了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：面對極端氣候來臨，我們的力道要加強，跟地方的合作要更多。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想不只颱風，光是現在這樣的極端氣候、強降雨，就會造成人口新興地區，還有部分行政區的淹水，為什麼？因為雨水下水道不足，過去幾十年前的都市計畫、排水計畫，已經無法滿足現在的城市發展……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有錯，是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：有一些地區，包括我們臺中市，過去臺中縣的海線、山城、屯區，並不在一個完整都市計畫內，很多地方人口聚集非常多，但還是沒有雨水下水道，這個部分，我知道水利署和國土署都有在加強、在跟進，但是我希望院長和部長可以制訂一個專案、計畫，針對國內的雨水下水道，尤其是六都，包含這些人口新興地區、新的發展區，有一個更全面的規劃，協助地方政府，有更多的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個基本上有的是屬於地方自治事項，但我們願意和地方政府一起來討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：雖然沒有錯，但是請院長……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，所以為什麼院長會給我們1,000億的預算就是……"],["顏委員寬恒：在經費上、在政策上，多多幫助地方，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：那個1,000億就是要用在地方政府。"],["顏委員寬恒：1,000億一定不夠啦！一定不夠啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！有4年，有4年。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}},{"id":"165213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2170dced164337aaa1274ffb2db4c36285e1af54c489cd6258594ca32616fb4d75783c786b3857c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:00:52 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謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請 卓院長"},{"start":31.175,"end":53.75,"text":"部委員好 院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題"},{"start":55.951,"end":82.11,"text":"新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以"},{"start":82.54,"end":109.231,"text":"服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務"},{"start":110.151,"end":132.349,"text":"所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後"},{"start":134.13,"end":157.928,"text":"然後現在法庭 大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對 是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好 那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅 稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下 他申請"},{"start":159.369,"end":174.146,"text":"稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多"},{"start":176.628,"end":192.367,"text":"大高院長 您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以 院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦"},{"start":193.268,"end":216.694,"text":"我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋"},{"start":218.235,"end":232.632,"text":"繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊"},{"start":232.952,"end":260.205,"text":"那你一定要把憲法 我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階 好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長"},{"start":261.946,"end":284.057,"text":"任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在 你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊"},{"start":285.918,"end":304.975,"text":"因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員"},{"start":305.896,"end":330.893,"text":"吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦"},{"start":332.674,"end":343.641,"text":"你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦"},{"start":344.997,"end":370.747,"text":"第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講"},{"start":371.647,"end":390.264,"text":"你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務"},{"start":391.405,"end":404.473,"text":"一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分"},{"start":406.773,"end":427.027,"text":"是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊"},{"start":428.388,"end":453.304,"text":"院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎"},{"start":454.124,"end":475.577,"text":"他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查"},{"start":476.818,"end":504.173,"text":"我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯 聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切 不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊 你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊 院長 院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是"},{"start":505.314,"end":527.179,"text":"我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法"},{"start":528.939,"end":553.249,"text":"我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列"},{"start":553.973,"end":582.571,"text":"不是啊 你現在那個警察人員人事條例 軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了 萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁 您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕"},{"start":583.712,"end":612.015,"text":"依法行政 我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政"},{"start":612.856,"end":628.858,"text":"全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法 議法對不對 二法 議法 歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎"},{"start":630.585,"end":647.123,"text":"惡法 易法 你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你 不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法 易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法 易法但是在行政院不能違憲"},{"start":651.36,"end":674.951,"text":"院長 憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制"},{"start":678.536,"end":694.41,"text":"請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡"},{"start":695.371,"end":713.348,"text":"所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家"},{"start":715.714,"end":724.605,"text":"但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算"},{"start":725.737,"end":747.182,"text":"沒有我說的算 我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲 這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法 它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做 很遺憾的"},{"start":747.802,"end":762.399,"text":"您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民"},{"start":762.619,"end":781.537,"text":"你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲"},{"start":782.625,"end":806.236,"text":"我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧"},{"start":808.285,"end":828.737,"text":"我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡"},{"start":829.477,"end":844.655,"text":"不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做"},{"start":845.556,"end":862.417,"text":"我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做"},{"start":863.118,"end":886.715,"text":"所以我在這邊跟院長報告 如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚 您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟... 董法的人都非常清楚好 沒關係 這句話就你講你的 我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事 我自己同學在大學當教授 他之前還是研究所所長"},{"start":887.455,"end":914.726,"text":"他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的"},{"start":915.146,"end":939.911,"text":"您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係"},{"start":944.633,"end":957.432,"text":"您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好 謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重"},{"start":961.189,"end":980.925,"text":"你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長"},{"start":981.866,"end":990.872,"text":"那您竟然說 認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放 請問一下如果下個月"},{"start":993.866,"end":1014.764,"text":"就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變"},{"start":1016.425,"end":1039.854,"text":"我現在發了 如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長 不是嗎不是啦 院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長 你不要"},{"start":1041.815,"end":1062.964,"text":"你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼"},{"start":1063.677,"end":1082.099,"text":"就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論"},{"start":1084.141,"end":1099.802,"text":"我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯"},{"start":1102.355,"end":1118.872,"text":"我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告"},{"start":1119.953,"end":1143.045,"text":"你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用"},{"start":1143.585,"end":1158.477,"text":"譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼"},{"start":1159.378,"end":1186.658,"text":"你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾"},{"start":1187.758,"end":1210.276,"text":"那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把"},{"start":1210.916,"end":1234.355,"text":"程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去"},{"start":1234.955,"end":1252.767,"text":"一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上"},{"start":1253.487,"end":1264.344,"text":"也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對"},{"start":1268.532,"end":1292.684,"text":"這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防"},{"start":1293.704,"end":1312.371,"text":"我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求"},{"start":1313.411,"end":1333.772,"text":"那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要 如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對 就是您剛講的嘛 調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設 社福 醫療 教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民"},{"start":1334.312,"end":1357.157,"text":"我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買"},{"start":1358.257,"end":1376.502,"text":"台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為"},{"start":1377.762,"end":1398.455,"text":"等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦 沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員"},{"start":1399.235,"end":1427.661,"text":"光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療"},{"start":1428.941,"end":1456.737,"text":"能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的"},{"start":1457.128,"end":1466.316,"text":"因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實"},{"start":1468.266,"end":1494.189,"text":"軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行"},{"start":1495.51,"end":1516.817,"text":"之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢"},{"start":1518.217,"end":1540.305,"text":"你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來"},{"start":1542.301,"end":1564.514,"text":"返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨"},{"start":1567.706,"end":1585.222,"text":"這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較"},{"start":1587.364,"end":1602.278,"text":"我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊 我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續 世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量"},{"start":1605.3,"end":1622.452,"text":"國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎"},{"start":1627.395,"end":1631.16,"text":"但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認"},{"start":1641.758,"end":1667.958,"text":"三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好 才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量"},{"start":1671.981,"end":1688.173,"text":"這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊"},{"start":1689.278,"end":1711.831,"text":"好啦 隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算 您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助 要不要再談租屋津貼"},{"start":1712.691,"end":1737.303,"text":"你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲"},{"start":1738.504,"end":1762.697,"text":"然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來"},{"start":1763.557,"end":1781.893,"text":"那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想"},{"start":1782.974,"end":1787.897,"text":"時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決"},{"start":1805.586,"end":1833.333,"text":"那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考"},{"start":1834.073,"end":1835.941,"text":"好 謝謝兩位 兩位辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":25,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時1分）謝謝院長，我們麻煩行政院院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長早安。院長，我今天問的問題其實都是老問題，我今天不會問任何突襲性的問題，我想這也是對行政院的尊重。我現在想請教院長幾個最基本的問題，第一個，前一陣子有閃兵事件，就是不想服兵役這個問題新聞報導滿多的，我想請教一下，如果有役男覺得兵役法這個法律違憲，限制他的人身自由，自己就決定拒絕入伍，請問一下院長，這個有沒有問題？他有沒有權利說，因為我認為違憲，我聲請釋憲，所以我現在拒絕入伍，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國憲法規定服兵役是國人應盡的義務，所以服兵役這一件事情沒有違憲的空間。"],["吳委員宗憲：不行這樣講，有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算，是大法官才可以說了算。所以我請教您，如果有役男覺得兵役法違憲，他認為限制了他的自由權利，這個時候他說我聲請釋憲了，要拒絕入伍，請問院長，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員答復過了，依照中華民國憲法，國人有服兵役的義務，所以服兵役這件事情很單純，沒有違憲的空間，委員不要用這件事情想要印證……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啊，所以你還是沒有回答我的問題嘛！院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要用這件事情想要引證其他的事實。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我們不是大法官，你不能說憲法規定在那裡，所以他怎麼做就是可以或不可以，你不是大法官嘛，正常的情況是他聲請釋憲之後，然後憲法法庭（大法庭）認為這個東西沒有違憲，對不對？是這樣子才對嘛！您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果役男個人有因為宗教、身體等其他理由，那另當別論。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你沒有給我答案。好，那我再問你第二個問題，如果人民覺得納稅、稅捐稽徵法違憲，限制了他對財產的自由處分權，請問一下，他聲請稅捐稽徵法違憲之後，可不可以就不繳稅？請問一下院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：據我所知，稅捐稽徵法相關的規定，你要聲請任何的救濟，應該要履行它必要的條件。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你還是沒回答我的問題啊！報告院長、報告院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員的問題陷阱很多……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告院長，您也是法律系畢業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：您也是檢察官出身的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法律位階：憲法，法律、命令，我現在跟你討論的是憲法位階……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，憲法位階最高。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再跟我講法律位階的救濟，好不好？所以，院長，你不要在那邊誤導大家啦！我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我哪一件誤導大家？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟院長報告一件事，我跟你說，你不要在那邊誤導大家……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一件？"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說憲法的位階最高。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再跟我講稅捐稽徵法的救濟，那是法律層級。","好，那我請教你，還是這個問題，你還是沒回答我，如果人民認為稅法違憲，他聲請釋憲了，可不可以就從此不繳稅。請問一下院長，可以或不可以？請院長裁示。"],["卓院長榮泰：繳稅也是一樣，我們政府依法課徵人民各種的稅都是法律有依據的，所以……"],["吳委員宗憲：你還是沒有談到憲法嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：法律有依據的情況底下，人民繳稅這也是一種義務。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我跟你講，你現在講的東西，全國很多法律人都在聽。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在跟你談憲法位階，你一定要拉到法律位階，好吧！這就是院長您的……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員透過質詢在……"],["吳委員宗憲：請教第三個問題，如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪，要入監服刑，這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲，侵害他的人身自由權而聲請釋憲，他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑，因為我已經聲請釋憲了？請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何人被法律判決確定有罪，那就是法律最後的定讞。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長一直在談法律，您一直講法律對不對？立法院三讀通過的也叫法律，但是我今天看到有一位院長，您剛剛一直說法律有規定，所以人民必須遵守，那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律，你也不遵守啊！你也是告訴了我一句「因為我認為它違憲，我聲請釋憲中，所以不用遵守」，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為立法院通過的法律案、預算案大幅增加行政院的歲出，沒有徵詢行政院、沒有指出資金的來源，這個都違反了憲法跟預算法，我一而再，再而三提醒大院各位委員，吳委員，你是法律出身，你應該清楚，你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，這不是政治目的。院長，請你不要因為政治目的而不編列。去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議，立法院的議事錄記載得非常清楚，內政部、警政署都有派員列席，所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦，不要再繼續騙了啦！好，我們看一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：你有沒有指出資金的來源？你有沒有進行必要的修法？都沒有啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，院長，你搞不清楚，我跟院長說一下，依據我國憲法訴訟法，我想我們直接列憲法訴訟法條文給院長好了，第五十二條，違憲判決認定是違憲之前，這個法律就是完全生效，總統已經公布了，完全生效，行政院就必須依法行政，行政院長沒有那種理由說「我認為違憲，所以我不做」。","再來，上一次你在那邊虧張啓楷說「你是全中華民國第一個不懂聲請釋憲中的立法委員」，但我也要跟你講，你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分，不去適用這個法律，但是依據憲法訴訟法第四十三條，它也是大法官的專屬權力啊！請問院長，一個沒有被憲法判決判定違憲的法律，您就是有遵守的義務，一個已經生效的法律，您就必須要遵守，這個你也沒有暫時處分權而不遵守……"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分？"],["吳委員宗憲：請問一下，您為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條及第四十三條？請院長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦，我是說你為什麼可以做暫時處分啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：是你們封殺了大法官，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：誰封殺大法官？"],["卓院長榮泰：你們把人數砍成這樣，你們又修憲法訴訟法……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，院長、院長、院長，今天是總統不提名！"],["卓院長榮泰：每次大法官同意權，你們不行使同意權，讓他不通過……"],["吳委員宗憲：不好意思，報告主席，我們時間先暫停，不好意思，這是程序問題。"],["主席：我們彼此相互尊重，也尊重委員質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，不然這樣好不好，我現在陪你，我們現在時間暫停，我現在陪你到總統府去請命，拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好？我們現在去，我陪你，我們跟他請命，我們到總統府跟總統府拜託……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府不是我們想去就可以去。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們去請命，請總統趕快提人選，今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院，你們現在是本末倒置！"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有提過兩次嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：他提了兩次，但人選有問題啊！今天立法院是……"],["卓院長榮泰：那你們為什麼要把人數設置成這個樣子，讓大法官無法運作？"],["吳委員宗憲：你講那個什麼話！"],["卓院長榮泰：我講這個是中國話、臺灣話啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎？今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎？總統提了什麼人選，我只能當橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎？今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查，我是負責任的人，我也實質的審查，你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查後認為不合格的大法官，我有錯，你憑什麼講這個話？"],["卓院長榮泰：形式上有實質的審查，事實上是黨意凌駕一切，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：你在那邊講那個什麼話，那你今天民進黨全部都投同意，那是不是也是黨意凌駕民意？你可以這樣講嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們都支持啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我今天不是來這邊跟你吵架。"],["卓院長榮泰：你就是來吵架的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我今天問的是程序，我講一個很簡單的，憲法訴訟法第五十二條、第四十三條明明白白的在那裡，您就是一個違法的院長，您的這個作為其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長，而且您讓民進黨政府失信於民！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你今天是委員，不是檢察官，你無權在這裡說誰違法、不違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們今天三讀通過的法律，你不依法執行欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過了，你不依照憲法、預算法，大幅增加歲出，沒有徵詢行政院意見、沒有指出資金來源。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，好，沒關係，你今天要當大法官，那你就去當你的大法官。我請教你，你講了那麼久，你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼？請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一條不依法編列？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！現在警察人員人事條例、軍人待遇條例，我們在4月27號已經三讀通過跟6月29號已經三讀通過。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過了，行政院已經說過，只要釋憲結果合憲，我們就依法編列，而且追溯，如果違憲，那我們不編列，如果我現在編了，萬一違憲的話，我變成違憲的院長。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，我覺得您一直在兜圈子啦！我講一個很簡單的，沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕依法行政。我剛剛問你的那三個問題，人民都沒有辦法因為聲請釋憲中而不去做這些國民的義務……"],["卓院長榮泰：那憲法規定得很清楚，沒有違憲的空間。"],["吳委員宗憲：依法行政是行政院的義務，你到現在還是告訴不了我，你的法條依據到底是什麼，我現在已經告訴你，法條依據為何！憲法訴訟法的依據為何！但是偉大的行政院長，你還是告訴不了我，你的法律依據為何！這個就是你不依法行政，全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算法跟憲法規定得很清楚，憲法跟預算法規定得很清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：中華民國歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！歷任的……"],["吳委員宗憲：每一位法律人都知道一句話，您也是法律系畢業的，惡法亦法，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：惡法亦法！"],["卓院長榮泰：你承認你是惡法嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：惡法亦法！我沒有告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：你承認你是惡法嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為是惡法，我們必須救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你不用在那邊耍嘴皮子啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是惡法我們就必須救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：我是說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法亦法。"],["卓院長榮泰：好啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：即使你今天再厭惡這個法律，你也必須依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員盡可以跟國人講惡法亦法，但是行政院不能違憲！"],["吳委員宗憲：唉！院長，憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務，你今天在違憲，因為今天立法院三讀通過的法律，你不依法執行，這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定。"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：請讓大法官來講這句話，不要你自己下定論！"],["卓院長榮泰：大法官就被封殺啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛已經跟你講，我現在可以陪你到總統府去，現在是總統不願意提大法官人選，請他提出來，搞不好他第三波提的大法官人選，我們都很喜歡，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：希望如此！"],["吳委員宗憲：立法院不是總統府的立法局、不是橡皮圖章。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核，這是我的義務。"],["卓院長榮泰：在人事同意權上總是黨意凌駕一切。"],["吳委員宗憲：也請行政院負責好您的義務，把事情做好，依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：我的義務就是守護憲法、守護國家。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度，我必須跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：只有獨裁國家可以行政院說了算……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有我說了算！我等待大法官的解釋，我沒有做定論。"],["吳委員宗憲：正常的民主國家，行政院必須服從立法院三讀通過的法律，你有覆議權，你可以行使覆議權……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有做定論。"],["吳委員宗憲：你可以聲請釋憲，這個都沒有問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是在大法官宣告違憲之前，依據憲法訴訟法，它就是一個有效、必須遵循的法律，但是你今天沒有這麼做，很遺憾的，您今天就是一個違法的院長！而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次……"],["吳委員宗憲：您今天就是一個違法的院長，而且你讓民進黨政府長期失信於民，您就是違法的院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次，您是立法委員，你不是檢察官。"],["吳委員宗憲：而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民。"],["卓院長榮泰：你是立法委員，你不是檢察官，你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天就是因為我是立法委員，所以立法院三讀通過的法律，我發現有一個院長不願意執行，所以我才可以這麼講……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後我再告訴院長一句話，您今天說我不是檢察官，不可以說你違法，那我也反告訴您一句，您不是院長，你不可以說它違憲！"],["卓院長榮泰：我等待大法官的決定，我沒有說它違憲不違憲，大法官說合憲我就編，違憲我就不能編！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條，非常清楚了嘛！你剛剛這句話就是違反了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：你回去把條文看清楚吧！","我跟你講，這是一個法治國，我們是法治國，所以請依法行政，結果連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做，好吧！那我也是無奈啦！一個行政院卻不依法行政。","我跟您報告為什麼制度重要，民主國家為什麼制度非常重要？就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替，政黨不停的輪替有不同的領導者，領導的風格不一樣，我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁，所以我們有一個嚴格、剛性的制度在那裡，不管誰執政，都必須服從那個剛性的制度，國家才不會大亂！今天如果換了一個政黨執政，假設民眾黨執政了，貴黨如果立了一個福國利民的法律，民眾黨說：我認為這個法律違憲，我不想做，我等釋憲啊！這樣子國家就大亂了！所以憲法訴訟法有一定的規範，就是可以下暫時處分，暫時不適用是只有大法官可以作出。大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前，它就是一個生效的法律，我們都必須要遵循。所以我在這邊跟院長報告，如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度，我剛剛已經把我國制度講完了，我講得那麼清楚，您還是不認同或您有您的論述，我在這邊跟院長報告一件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：懂法的人都非常清楚、懂法的人都非常清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，你講你的，我講我的啦！我也跟您報告一件事，我的同學在大學當教授，他之前還是研究所所長，他打電話跟我說，院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象，在憲法課程講五權分立、在講權力分立原則的時候，您是學生的負面教材！您是學生拿出來說：這個東西是不對的也違反權力分立。我們都是法律人，我第一次質詢您的時候，我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大阿哥，可以為國家好好地謀福利，結果我今天看到您現在變成法律系學生的嘲笑對象。如果院長覺得您這個說法是有依據的，麻煩可以發動學者來打臉我，來打臉憲法訴訟法第五十二條，我都歡迎嘛！但是當你講不出來，只剩下講：我認為它違憲、我聲請釋憲中，所以我可以不做。這完全違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條，違反第四十三條，您卻不講……"],["卓院長榮泰：法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我，認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，您這樣的講法，以後人民只要覺得哪一條違憲而聲請釋憲，就不用遵循了，因為堅守憲法！這是您的說法，謝謝院長給我們這種劃時代的憲政概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：你這就是誤導，你用你的法律常識在誤導國人，這個非常嚴重！你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做，這樣非常嚴重！"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，沒關係，你在這邊講的所有話，歷史自有公斷。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我們就在這裡，歷史自有公斷。你也還年輕，我們的未來也都還很長，歷史自有公斷。憲法訴訟法我已經講完了，清清楚楚條文在那裡！","我再請教院長，您說大法官說合憲之後會回溯去發放，請問一下，如果下個月就說合憲了，你們是要一次發，還是分次發？利息怎麼算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會先把預算準備好，希望能夠在合憲的情況底下，把財源找出來，把預算準備好，能夠回溯一次發就一次發，但是如果這是違憲的，我當然不能發。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啊！違憲當然不行……"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在發了，如果是違憲的，我馬上變成違憲的院長，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！院長，你又在亂講話了！任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的，你不要這樣亂講！我剛剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法第五十二條嘛！任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前，所有作為都合法，所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦！你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長，你不要這樣子說自己，好不好？這樣我聽了會不忍心啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不是院長，你沒有辦法了解我的心情。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這樣聽了會不忍心。"],["卓院長榮泰：你沒有辦法了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：只要被大法庭宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法、合憲，好不好？謝謝院長。但是明年你有沒有編一個或有負債的準備啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：或有什麼？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是你現在說的這筆錢，萬一下個月、下下個月說合憲了，你要怎麼來得及準備？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會先把預算找出來啊！如果這筆預算需要追加，我就請求大院同意追加，同意之後我們就來編，但這個前提是它必須是合憲的，才有後續的這些討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，我剛剛已經講得非常的完整，我想今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述，全國人民、全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡。當然院長您講的那句話沒錯，大家叫你要合憲不能違憲，這句話沒有錯，我也很認同您這句話，但是可以宣告違憲與否的人不是院長您啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員我說一句話，您也有志於參選地方首長，如果未來地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意，你作何感想？"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我請問一下，這個要直接對外公告，你們趕快做喔！如果合憲之後要怎麼分期？有沒有利息？怎麼樣入帳？這個部分你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做，而不要等到宣告合憲之後，然後就匆匆忙忙又搞不出東西來，我是希望這樣，因為我跟您說很多待退的人或退休的人，其實這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用，譬如說他的醫藥費、長輩的醫藥費等等，他們都很在意這件事情。","所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情，第一個就是要公告追溯補回的SOP，如果說合憲之後，追溯補回的SOP是什麼？你不用很細項地講，但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚，讓人民能夠安心。第二個是開放權利名冊供個人查詢，能夠查詢自己，因為上一次我有問過劉世芳部長，他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用，是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用？因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定，每個人都搞不清楚，一直打電話來問，也造成我的困擾，當然我很願意幫民眾查詢，可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道，是不是可以麻煩你能夠請主管機關趕快把系統建置起來，讓個人能夠查詢他是不是符合發放的資格，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分麻煩您。"],["卓院長榮泰：真的有那麼一天，內政部跟所有的財主單位一定會把程序跟預算準備好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。下一個問題，我還是想跟你請教一下，我們來看國家的預算，其實國家的預算，一個餅就是這麼大塊嘛，這個餅就這麼大塊的情況下，如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是某一個項目必須增加大量預算的時候，勢必會去侵害到其他原本需要支付的部分。我自己看了一下我們的國防預算，當然我完全認為要支持國防，而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子，因為我家老小都在臺灣這塊土地上，不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心。但是，我想請教您一個問題，我看到2026年國防預算再加一些特別預算，加起來要到九千多億，對不對？如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊，國家就收這麼多稅金，我想請教你，突然在國防部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下，我們要補這個洞，第一個，當然就是用加稅的方式來解決；第二個，可能就要從一些公共投資、社福、醫療、教育等等的預算挪到國防。我想請問一下，大量增加的國防預算，我們要怎麼去支付這個錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%，未來我們逐年朝5%來增加，這是基於兩個原因：第一是國家財政的能力，第二是國防的需求。我們也嚴守財政紀律，所以未來如果這樣做的話，勢必要調整支出結構。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是您剛剛講的調整支出結構，所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設、社福、醫療、教育等等這方面，還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來，但是這個部分你們要明確地告訴人民，我們大量地購買武器，大量地支出國防預算，甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%，算起來就相當於1.43兆，等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面。","我不是說國防不重要，國防非常重要，我一直覺得我們要強化國防是百分之百一定要的，但是我們必須買臺灣適合用的武器，而且要買夠，這我絕對支持；第二個，我們要買能夠交貨的武器，這是我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法，就是第一個買臺灣適合用的武器，而且要買夠，第二個要買會交貨的武器，這個很重要，因為等到2030年要拉到GDP5%、搞到1.43兆，國家一半的錢都拿去國防採購……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有到一半。"],["吳委員宗憲：不到一半啦，當然你精算不到一半，但是四成有吧。像這個狀況下，我說你會排擠到其他的東西嘛，上次沈伯洋委員對於光是普發人民1萬現金這件事情要2,400億，他就說窮臺了！配合中國大陸解放軍要窮臺，要讓他們進攻臺灣！結果我們如果搞了1.43兆的話，這個會不會造成窮臺？其實是我自己的擔心啦，因為我剛剛講自主防衛極端的重要，我百分之百支持，但是如果排擠掉其他，讓臺灣越來越窮，我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望，或父母他們能夠接受到的醫療品質越來越差，或小孩子的受教越來越不行，我是擔心這個點，不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防，其實沒有，我積極的、百分之百的認同要增加國防，就像我剛剛講的軍人的薪水，您知不知道軍人的薪水，因為我們三讀通過之後，很多軍校招生是滿招的，都是創之前很多年來最好的招生狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為今年我們也增加了171億，包括追加預算的60億在內，增加了171億。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，非常好，這個我也是要跟您報告，當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時，其實軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年增加了171億。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是不是增加軍人的薪水，讓他們在國內消費，刺激經濟更好，而不是買爆武器。買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平，其實我個人是質疑啦，您在院長的任內，人家說您是史上最愛覆議的院長，而且您任內有4個特別預算同時在執行，之前已經規劃了，現在執行，或是在規劃中的，共有4個，我算了一下，大概1.2兆到1.5兆之間，其實還滿驚人的，所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包。另外，我們還知道一件事情，就是國家的預算如果是用特別條例的方式去做，編列特別預算的話，它是借錢，而借錢是人民要還耶！感覺是什麼？就像我今天去吃喝玩樂，結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳。我現在就擔心，在這樣的狀況下，你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們每年的歲計賸餘都必須依法來返還債務，這都是依法在進行的，所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務，這是一定的。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以您任內是一定還不完啦，所以我在這邊跟院長報告，當我們對於軍、公、教、警、消的待遇、退休金，這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候，但是對於國外採購的武器，即使對方遲不交貨，卻束手無策，或者是今天一艘潛艦，也一直沒有達到交艦的期程，其實我們很難過，因為這每一筆都是幾千億、幾百億的事情，大家對這些好像不是很在乎，可是對於我國的軍公教，卻一再的跟他們計較，我想院長你還是要特別注意啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然在乎啊！我跟委員說，我們第一個考慮的是財政的能力，第二個考慮的是國防需求，就是在財政永續、世代正義跟國防實力底下……"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們依照財政紀律來考量……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我們很清楚，國防……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們考量的是整個……"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，你也當過兵，國防最重要的三個要素，就是人、裝備、維護，對不對？缺一不可……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們考量的是整個國家的需求……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以買爆武器，買爆……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是買爆武器……"],["吳委員宗憲：買爆維護，但是人不夠不行啦！我們編現比……"],["卓院長榮泰：國防有需要，當然要武器啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：您可以否認我們現在軍方的編現比狀況不佳嗎？您可以否認嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：否認什麼？"],["吳委員宗憲：我們現在軍方的編現比狀況不佳。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強，我們必須增強實力。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我剛剛講了，強化國防，國防的三個重要面向是人、設備、維護，三者必須均衡。"],["卓院長榮泰：很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，三者必須均衡，而不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：國防的實力，報告委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：我看到的是什麼？5萬塊買一張椅子，120塊買一瓶水，後來刪了50億，是我們爆料出來了，才刪了這50億，如果這50億拿來加薪有多好！我跟你講，我還是一個想法，國防我絕對支持，但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰，也不能帶來民生排擠……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個考量的是財政實力啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：更不能帶來國軍的受害，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的財政能力必須先考量啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：因為您搞了很多的特別預算，這個是債留子孫，你也知道您任內是還不完的，這個會債留子孫……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括馬太鞍溪的特別預算，你也有意見嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括馬太鞍溪的特別預算，你也有意見嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在在跟你談國防，你跟我扯馬太鞍溪。"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：唉！好啦，隨便你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律……"],["吳委員宗憲：我在跟你談國防……"],["卓院長榮泰：我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律……"],["吳委員宗憲：特別預算有很多種……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋……"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，院長，我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題哦！"],["吳委員宗憲：今天大家都有眼睛、有耳朵，我在跟你談國防的特別預算，您在跟我談馬太鞍溪……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：那你要不要再談低收入戶？要不要再談生育補助？要不要談租屋津貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算，現在哪有國防特別預算？"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，我想豬瘟的問題還是要提一下，豬瘟的問題爆發之後，其實我有提了幾個跟大家不一樣的想法，就是我們發現邊境走私查獲的數量，我有去查了過去10年的紀錄，其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入的，不管是自行申報或被查獲的；然後我們也發現一個狀況，就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理，這也是一個很大問題；再來，司法也嚴重地輕判，這個我都開過記者會，也把實際案例都提出來了。","所以現在有一個問題，這些東西其實是中央管，當然不都是行政院，但這些東西很多是中央管的，可是今天我們看到，爆發了這件事情，結果臺中盧秀燕市長後來有出來道歉，而且有對幾個一級主管下人事命令。那中央到目前為止似乎就是，反正錯的都是地方，然後就推給地方。我覺得，反正民進黨常常是發生事情之後，第一件事就是推責任啦！千錯萬錯都不是我的錯。時間不長了，我提兩個東西……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有防疫的過程……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我沒有問你問題，先暫停！"],["陳部長駿季：都是地方的稽查出了問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長！"],["主席：請尊重委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，請尊重我在質詢的權力好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：你不能說都是中央的問題啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問你問題……"],["主席：請尊重委員的質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問你問題！謝謝部長。","部長，我想兩大問題，廚餘還有獸醫的問題。廚餘的部分確實很難解決，我也看到過去農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察，日本有環保飼料的一個作法，當然它是不是適合我國，我也想請大家看一下。","再來就是獸醫的部分，因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫只占我國獸醫的5.75%，那是不是能夠增加一些誘因，讓獸醫願意留下來為我們的防疫盡力？我想麻煩部長、麻煩院長能夠參考。好，謝謝兩位，兩位辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員。賴委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴瑞隆書面質詢：","一、落實「大南方新矽谷推動方案」，串聯南部半導體S廊帶","(一)高雄楠梓、仁武、橋頭三大園區形成「南部半導體S廊帶」，台積電楠梓廠區P1已量產、P2裝機中，P3預計2026年上半年導入機台，P4已取得施工執照，P5正進入設計階段，整體產能將涵蓋2奈米至1.6奈米先進製程。為確保產線穩定量產，請中央協助相關用地、水電供應及周邊道路建設。","(二)橋頭科學園區污水廠與數位創新大樓統包工程應加速完工，仁武產業園區第二期委託開發案亦應儘速啟動。","(三)同時請教育部與國科會持續推動「南部半導體人才培育基地計畫」，整合中山大學、陽明交大、清大等南部據點，加速落地專業學位與產學聯盟課程，打造在地高階人才鏈。","二、因應美國對等關稅照及產業升級等挑戰，政府應多元化顧傳統產業","大高雄地區長期以來以製造業為主，包括鋼鐵、石化、扣件螺絲、金屬製造、機械加工、造船業等為重要生產基地，傳統產業對高雄經濟具有重大貢獻，但目前面臨的主要挑戰為升級壓力大，面對環保、工安、國際分工調整、技術與附加價值提升等方面皆有挑戰。請行政院協助：","(一)擴充「智慧製造輔導計畫」及「傳統產業創新加值計畫」，補助IoT、自動化與數位製程升級。","(二)鼓勵傳產導入碳盤查、節能減碳技術，協助取得國際綠色認證。","(三)建立「高雄傳產升級基金」或專案融資機制，協助中小企業設備汰換。","(四)透過「新南向市場拓展方案」，協助傳產出口多元化，降低對特定市場依賴。","三、持續支持「亞灣2.0智慧科技創新園區」與未來「亞灣3.0大亞灣計畫」","(一)亞灣2.0計畫七年投入170億元，帶動AIoT、金融科技、影視製作與國際會展產業聚落，已吸引逾270億投資。建議中央持續協助招商，引入國際級研發與數位服務企業。","(二)針對後續「大亞灣計畫」，建議行政院支持高雄市政府規劃205兵工廠轉型為智慧產業與都市更新示範區，保留約15公頃作為亞灣森林公園，並規劃結合智慧住宅與綠色交通，另規劃興建大巨蛋場域，請中央共同協助招商與土地活化，結合捷運紅線及輕軌，形成TOD示範軸帶。","四、加速北高雄產業園區及白埔產業園區開發建設及招商","(一)北高雄產業園區目前規劃為傳產設廠首選，預計2027年6月完成園區公共設施，園區聯外道路台39線（台19甲~大莊路），目前綜合規畫暨環評中，預計2031年完工通車，請行政院協助加速綜合規畫暨環評，以及聯外道路建設時程。","(二)白埔產業園區於2025年9月23日經內政部都委會審議通過，為「大南方新矽谷推動方案」核心節點之一，預計提供約53公頃半導體用地。請行政院督促國科會及經濟部評估升格為科學園區之可行性，整合楠梓、橋頭、白埔形成南部先進製程廊帶。","五、能源轉型與淨零產業鏈","高雄碳排佔全國五分之一，推動2050淨零城市發展自治條例、碳平台、商轉平台等政策，但產業端仍需中央法制與補助支持。請行政院協助高雄淨零產業鏈之推動，包括法制、治理、技術、經濟及人才等面向。"],["主席：下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}