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謝謝各位黨團的代表然後我們行政機關的代表也都到場了謝謝大家出席今天台灣民眾黨立法院黨團依照我們8月29號"},{"start":1991.502,"end":2012.172,"text":"第三會期第二十七次院會以及十月三號第四會期第三次院會的決定由台灣民眾黨黨團今天針對總共有四個法律案來進行黨團協商首先介紹各個黨團"},{"start":2013.633,"end":2036.464,"text":"出席的代表首先介紹民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳佩瑜委員以及中國國民黨羅志強委員陳慶輝委員翁曉琦委員林倩琦委員還有台灣民眾黨黨團的張吉凱委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":2037.745,"end":2062.685,"text":"那今天行政機關列席的代表有我們環境部的政務次長葉俊宏葉次長那以及環境保護司的司長許淑子許司長那交通部觀光署的署長陳玉秀那其他交通部觀光署的同仁我就不一一介紹請見諒"},{"start":2065.24,"end":2067.976,"text":"內政部國家公園署署長王承基"},{"start":2070.471,"end":2096.348,"text":"經濟部的廠務次長賴建信賴次長以及法務部法治司的副司長林黛麗林副司長因為三個黨團的人員已經到齊我們現在開始進行協商今天協商有四個主題的案子我們先從第一案開始第一案"},{"start":2097.509,"end":2118.671,"text":"是環境影響評估法第五條條文的修正草案現在是不是先請提案的台灣民眾黨的黨團是由張祺凱委員我們先請張祺凱 張委員跟各位委員講一下因為希望各個黨團都能夠"},{"start":2119.941,"end":2142.155,"text":"公平的有一些大家多幾輪發言的機會所以我們我還是會請議事人員計時一下請大家時間還是控制一下原則上就是以三分鐘為限如果真的講不完的話我們再看現場時間的安排再來做決定現在先請張啟改 張委員"},{"start":2145.287,"end":2163.208,"text":"台灣民眾黨強力支持綠電可是發展過程裡面不能夠破壞環境永續發展更不能夠傷害到人民的生命財產的安全現在光電發展的過程裡面一直出現"},{"start":2164.609,"end":2183.093,"text":"環境遭到破壞山野光電板 海野光電板光是最近就發生了高雄大林三倍產評台南烏山頭水庫傳出到底有沒有可能洗的時候用清潔劑的這個爭議阿凱的故鄉 高野新聞"},{"start":2187.506,"end":2205.541,"text":"在丹納斯風災的時候製縫池就是水上行的太陽能光電板造成了嚴重的污染到現在為止很多專家學者說有些光電板沉到製縫池可能都還沒打撈上來上個禮拜彰化臟病公衛區"},{"start":2207.406,"end":2219.478,"text":"联合再生的这个案场设在朝间带竟然起火了我们追到的内幕是不是只有这一期之前还有发生火灾的真相都被掩盖了"},{"start":2220.916,"end":2242.384,"text":"為什麼造成這麼多的爭議很重要一個因素就是環境部長期不作為經濟部急著要發展太陽能結果連最基本的水上型的太陽能光電以前都沒有實施環評甚至有部分的地區只要經過主管機關"},{"start":2243.604,"end":2269.019,"text":"同意之後都不需要環評馬上就實施了太過於急救張沒有做好環評跟整個環境的保護出現了太多太多的漏洞所以今天台灣民眾黨提出了補破網第一個最重要就針對環境評估環境影響評估法第五條提出明確的修正案我們增訂在第五條增訂第三項"},{"start":2270.307,"end":2287.122,"text":"以後要做環評的包括除了原來的國家公園我們增列了國家風景區或者是脆弱敏感區域另外基於山坡替被破壞得非常嚴重所以我們將現行的限縮之前規定"},{"start":2288.503,"end":2307.629,"text":"裝置容量2萬千瓦以上或者設置累計設施的面積15公頃以上我們把它限收為1萬千瓦或者是5公頃以上就必須要環評另外我們要求設置在水面型的太陽能關電系統如果是超過"},{"start":2309.119,"end":2327.547,"text":"裝置容量超過1萬千瓦以上或者它累積的設置面積在5公頃以上都要環評另外設置或者是累積設置裝置的容量超過2萬千瓦以上都必須或者是整個面積高達10公頃以上都必須要經過環評"},{"start":2329.528,"end":2349.108,"text":"台灣民眾黨支持綠電的發展也希望整個光電的這個產業可以非常健全的發展包括光電的業者跟協會前幾天也特別拜訪了各個黨 朝野的黨團都來拜訪了我們也明確的表達只要經過不要再傷害我們的"},{"start":2350.641,"end":2365.796,"text":"環境能夠永續發展我們是會支持的所以我們現在提出了所謂的光電釋法也就是環評的一加三我們希望今天環境部能夠趕快補破網也希望光電業者能夠針對以前對環境的破壞趕快作出修正 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員那請問接下來哪一個黨團的委員要先發言"},{"start":2375.632,"end":2390.923,"text":"中國國民黨黨團跟民主進步黨黨團誰要先發言那先請民主進步黨黨團的陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席三分鐘嘛好 我簡單的說今天我們看了這個修法其實有幾個問題想要請教提案的黨團第一個"},{"start":2391.443,"end":2405.42,"text":"其實原本相關的法規是規範在執法的層次但是我猜想可能民眾黨黨團認為在執法的層次太低沒有辦法完整的規範甚至沒有辦法全面的規範如果你們擔心的是完整跟全面的規範其實我們要問另外一個問題"},{"start":2407.262,"end":2426.975,"text":"目前所有要做還品的並不是只有光電這件事情有非常多的開發大型中型小型開發如果它在相關的法規它需要還品它就會做還品但是這一次你們特別把光電拉上來我們要提的是這有點不合體力而且也稍顯突兀它有可能掛意漏腕所以這邊我們想要誠懇的拜託民眾黨黨團是不是可以回到執法的層次"},{"start":2432.259,"end":2450.26,"text":"因為確實在執法層次相關部會在相關執法修法之後都還是要送立法院備查各位委員辦公室如果對相關執法有疑義甚至我們也想要邀請主席有沒有後續召開公聽會或者是請他們定期到各委員辦公室去報告我覺得這也才是最重要的"},{"start":2450.66,"end":2456.023,"text":"另外剛剛張祺凱委員有談到關於環團對這件事情的考慮我們手上其實也有非常多環團也有給我們相關建議而且這些環團都是長期以來在台灣能源轉型的過程當中不斷跟很多民意代表然後也跟相關部會在開會的時候在討論重要的這些民間環保團體"},{"start":2471.051,"end":2478.776,"text":"包含這一次地球公民基金會發了一個聲明台灣食物保育協會、主婦聯盟環境保護基金會、綠色公民行動聯盟、台灣氣候行動網絡研究中心、台灣環境規劃協會的聯合聲明都一再的提醒我們說確實在能源轉型的路上不同新的綠能的開發在相關的法規確實都還需要討論但是拉到母法確實是一個不適合的做法"},{"start":2496.427,"end":2519.586,"text":"另外拉到母法它有一個困境就是它的彈性會小很多後續修法是不是每一次都要去動到母法而他們更在意的事情我也想要跟張祺凱文分享他們更在意的是整體環境社會跟土地使用的衝突這可能是過去這十幾年台灣在綠能轉型上遇到的困境包含傳統的環評我們在意的是土地"},{"start":2520.166,"end":2544.051,"text":"空氣 土地的部分空氣的部分 廢棄物的部分跟水的污染這是傳統環評可以處理的項目但是以今天您所提的光電的部分它確實在相關項目所造成的分歧跟歧異沒有這麼大但是可能面臨的衝擊是一 改變了地景跟地表的樣貌還有就是在不同族群之間對於土地利用的看法還有就是造成會不會排擠其他產業的發展"},{"start":2545.291,"end":2567.108,"text":"這可能是所有環境保護團體更在意的事實也可能是他們更希望立法院支持加強監督相關行政機關不管是在修辭法或是開相關公聽會必須要對相關族群相關關係人必須有所交代的甚至是相關生態的部分這些其實都不在傳統的環評項目可是如果我們硬要把光電部分拉進來它確實就會導致環評的會議可能會浪費很多時間在討論不是傳統環評要討論的事情當然我非常非常非常認同"},{"start":2574.834,"end":2589.464,"text":"剛剛民眾黨已經先說了其實大家都支持綠電也支持能源轉型但是在面對一個新的科技新的產業發展的路上確實有很多法規範都需要調整而且也需要大家更細緻的討論而且我要再次拜託 誠懇的拜託"},{"start":2591.025,"end":2608.035,"text":"我認為這一次不是只有環團發生其實有一個非常重要的角色我要拜託大家一起想一想大家傳統提到綠電就會想到所謂半導體產業但是很多人可能會認為半導體跟我沒有關係我想要提出另外一個事情其實RE100這個事情非常的重要那我們來看"},{"start":2609.176,"end":2632.623,"text":"在台灣有多少企業他們必須他們已經公開自行承諾他們是所謂R1-100的企業包含大家日常所在用的手機三大電信都已經也承諾他們要在2030、2040、2050不同的年份要百分之百使用綠電這些國內的企業 國內的廠商他們非常非常需要綠電而在綠電能源轉型的路上台灣政府跟民間廠商"},{"start":2633.843,"end":2652.579,"text":"努力我們如何讓這些企業可以提早達成甚至可以鼓勵更多的企業加入RE100我認為這是台灣在能源轉型我們大家一起承擔跟面對的難題那包含大家所認識的Apple跟Google也都在這個行列之中所以我真的要拜託大家如果拉入母法來修法失去了這個彈性那我們不如轉個頭來"},{"start":2656.042,"end":2680.896,"text":"去共同更認真的監督行政機關甚至邀請更多不同角度不同關心不同環境議題甚至是在不同區域的族群一起來關心能源轉型如何在執法裡面把相關該做的事情做得更好以上先簡單說到這邊謝謝主席好 謝謝民進黨黨團的代表請問中國國民黨黨團要有哪一位委員代表先發言"},{"start":2685.115,"end":2705.978,"text":"請羅志強羅委員本席是支持台灣民眾黨的提案其實剛剛聽了陳培育委員的發言我也必須很沉痛的說民進黨以前的創黨理念叫做清廉 勤政 愛鄉土現在是亂弄光電愛挖土 亂挖土"},{"start":2706.946,"end":2724.549,"text":"搞到說整座山被挖了嘉義我們齊凱兄的故鄉光電吹翻造成的污染到現在也沒解決然後所有的你看他的手伸到無邊無際我先講一件根本的事情不是反對綠電反對民進黨這種亂挖土式的綠電設置太陽能光電的那個發電系統要一"},{"start":2733.188,"end":2757.343,"text":"第五條第八條實施環境影響評估沒有不准在這條文裡面的規範是實施環境影響評估那我想請問國家公園國家風景區跟脆弱敏感區域你蓋光墊我們有個更嚴謹的方式要你實施環境影響評估不對嗎不就符合你們愛鄉土的理念然後野生動物保護區野生動物重要棲息環境"},{"start":2758.291,"end":2786.939,"text":"然後台灣沿海地區自然環境保護核定公告之自然保護區特定農業區的農業用地點點點方方面面框框架架什麼叫不合體力啊是你們亂挖土挖到不成體統所以今天也只能用我們今天勞了我們台灣的土地勞了我們台灣的環境的這個心情今天台灣民眾黨來修這個有關於環評法的一個相關的修正案所以本席表示贊同 謝謝"},{"start":2789.676,"end":2801.544,"text":"好 謝謝中國國民黨黨團的代表在第二輪發言以前我們要不要讓行政機關表達意見還是各個黨團希望直接進行第二輪的發言就直接第二輪是不是如果大家覺得要直接第二輪的第二輪不好意思 不是我不給你們發言有委員提案說就請你們等一下如果有機會看什麼時候再請你們發言"},{"start":2820.117,"end":2833.402,"text":"直接第二輪的發言是那就先請陳昭志委員其實長期存在的問題一直到丹納斯颱風大概把這個噩夢直接打開讓每個人看到了"},{"start":2835.082,"end":2854.196,"text":"摧毀了離岸型光電浮台還有雲豹能源旗下子公司有心能源的光電暗場整個都摧毀了重點是經濟部宣稱這個是試驗性計畫但是也解釋不清楚為什麼號稱可以抗17級風浪的光電浮台會在10級的中台下從屏東一路飄到澎湖"},{"start":2856.517,"end":2862.74,"text":"所以我的重點說因為大家越來越注重到這也看到了也見證了這些事情光電板的這個管理急需要完整的這個通盤檢討我們也意識到這個很缺乏的部分就是那個風險預防機制長年失靈這個光電開發而且還正在蠶食精吞台灣美麗的這個土地"},{"start":2877.848,"end":2901.162,"text":"那執政黨是失責的一方面當然大家走綠電這個是二次一致的目標一方面大力鼓吹開發光電廠但又疏於全盤式的這個檢視光電廠的設置區等於變成台灣是滿山遍野的開發那當然包括一些很敏感的地區我們這次也有提案來要做一些這個列到不管是列到母法或是一些修正的部分那我覺得台灣的光電廠我必須說"},{"start":2906.277,"end":2923.933,"text":"已經走向很遺憾走向以足利為導向的發展模式那政府要做的這個責任防災計畫跟環境責任是完全疏忽了那這些光電廠標案就被視為某些投資商品"},{"start":2924.914,"end":2945.182,"text":"完全我們就看到資金操作跟報酬的回收這個對我們台灣的農地林地景觀水資源等等都是非常大的傷害當然能源政策不足是一件事情所以今天我們覺得如果不把它提升到母法的話很多的認定標準"},{"start":2946.602,"end":2951.485,"text":"很多認定標準不會因為這個會因為行政團隊 改善團隊一直變動所以我們希望能夠把它放到這個母法這個層次來才能夠繼續這個一方面讓該綠電往這個方向繼續走但是也要保護我們的國土謝謝謝謝那個陳昭之委員那接下來請民主進步黨黨團的鍾嘉斌委員謝謝"},{"start":2975.425,"end":2997.219,"text":"環境要保護產業才能永續發展這是台灣社會經過幾十年的慘痛教訓形成的非常強大的共識我想不分朝野各政黨各種的環境團體跟產業代表都是接受也堅定的支持這樣的原則那剛剛有點遺憾聽到國民黨團的代表說到說"},{"start":2998.573,"end":3013.592,"text":"似乎我們在立法體力上應該要嚴格要趕快的來推動甚至來支持台灣民眾黨的修法我這邊給大家分享一下從去年的3月8號到去年的11月22號"},{"start":3015.274,"end":3031.584,"text":"國民黨黨團的委員一共提出了五個關於環境影響評估法的修法包括了3月8號的第八條之一第九第十二條3月15號第六條3月29號第六條7月5號甚至王玉敏如現一"},{"start":3034.487,"end":3047.381,"text":"嚴寬恆他們提出的就是目前我們手上的第5條還有環境影響評估第23條在11月22號連在場的林倩琦委員你在今年的10月28號都有提出關於第3條的修正草案"},{"start":3048.22,"end":3073.441,"text":"那請問這些國民黨團的草案現在在哪裡通通在委員會連審查都還沒開始一讀會之後交互委員會審查如果國民黨黨團那麼重視環境影響評估甚至包括重視本條文第五條包括林倩琪委員您的第三條都沒有在內政委員會進行討論對不起 環境影響評估法在未還委員會"},{"start":3075.402,"end":3099.702,"text":"所以呢在這種情況之下我們對於國民黨團的朋友說你們也非常重視民眾黨團的提案多重視這一個目前的禁負惡毒條文是在10月29號交付惡毒的民眾黨團你知道嗎在你們提出這個禁負惡毒之前在國民黨支持禁負惡毒之前已經有7個條文國民黨提的放在委員會待審"},{"start":3101.415,"end":3123.571,"text":"為什麼要經負二讀 在場的主席很清楚從去年一直以來 本屆開始 國眾的合作就是透過經負二讀 跳過委員會的審查不管這個條文的內容 提案的多麼義正直言畢竟立法牽動的是全社會全民 應該到委員會裡面充分表達意見"},{"start":3125.357,"end":3147.352,"text":"為什麼要直接近乎二讀呢 為什麼要跳過委員會的審查呢為什麼將國民黨自己另外七個提案放在委員會不審要來支持民眾黨的這一個近乎二讀呢剛剛我們的培餘書記長講了 台灣的反團也發聲了他說要強化監督光電設置 勿讓修法淪為政治工坊"},{"start":3148.492,"end":3166.818,"text":"環團也看出來了這是政治攻防啊金沃爾圖什麼結果金沃爾圖就是說這些有爭議的條文社會不完全了解沒有辦法充分討論然後呢就會再蹦出一個最高機密版的修正動議再修正動議當我現在在說修正動議再修正動議社會真的搞不清楚"},{"start":3167.478,"end":3189.209,"text":"如果目前的條文進入二讀 透過協商後 透過韓院長在主持一個朝野協商之後交到院會去進行二三讀的時候會出 會再蹦出一個修正動議 再蹦出一個再修正動議然後呢 把大家踏伐的 覺得很有爭議的條文突然180度的大轉彎 就像主席之前常常做的這種事情一樣"},{"start":3190.109,"end":3204.417,"text":"那這時候大家又面臨到這個黑箱立法為什麼會跑出那樣的再生不正動議那再生不正動議的基礎何在反團的意見在哪裡產業的意見在哪裡行政機關的意見在哪裡完全的跳過"},{"start":3205.658,"end":3231.406,"text":"這才是我們覺得今天這樣的草野協商 黨團協商我們覺得很遺憾的放著國民黨黨團七個糾正條文法案在委員會不審查來支持民眾黨一個禁錮惡毒今天協商之外我們幾乎在期待著韓院長主持一次之後就可能在院會裡面直接用黑箱立法的方式突然之間拿出來要求表決"},{"start":3232.526,"end":3242.834,"text":"到時候誰來面對 誰來應對所以我在這才誠懇的希望主席不要再重套覆轍讓外界指責國中兩黨黑箱修法"},{"start":3245.086,"end":3269.691,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員有點名主席 槌尋一些事項所以我把一些程序上面的事項先跟各位委員進行程序性的報告第一個這一次禁負二讀交付黨團協商當初在院會處理的時候各個黨團都沒有異議這是第一點在程序上我要跟大家做報告的在院會"},{"start":3271.111,"end":3285.858,"text":"當初進夫二讀的時候沒有任何一個黨團來提出異議第二個在院會之前針對原來提出來的條文提出修正動議跟再修正動議這是本院有效的議事規則"},{"start":3287.279,"end":3310.789,"text":"本來就應該處理的程序過去民主進步黨黨團在院會之前也常常提出修正動議再修正動議那也都是按照議事規則我們就一切按照議事規則走那因此剛剛所講的所謂的黑箱作業跟黑箱立法我老實說我個人是不知道就所何止啦"},{"start":3312.109,"end":3335.79,"text":"第三個說反對在野黨的意見直接禁夫惡毒強行通過立法的我印象倒是蠻深刻當初公民投票法在2019年5月的時候民主進步黨就是用這樣子的方式把公投法用鎖回鳥籠我想在立法院公報裡面的記載相當的清楚"},{"start":3336.611,"end":3360.656,"text":"但是今天我們還是就條文論條文回到條文本身在委員會上面或者是說在現在協商的現場再去進行這些所謂政治上面的攻防或是政治上面的攻擊到底是誰在進行攻擊我相信關心的朋友們大家也其實都可以看得出來"},{"start":3361.876,"end":3373.086,"text":"最後一點是說就台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們光電的業者七大光電業者就我所知有到台灣民眾黨黨團來表達他們的訴求"},{"start":3376.38,"end":3402.894,"text":"那環保團體當然環保團體有一連有一長串的環保團體他也有到我們黨團來表達訴求那我們黨團就是開大門走大路有人有意見要來表達他們的看法那我們都是接待也都好好的聆聽那當然兩邊的團體各自各有主張那兩邊的考慮"},{"start":3403.894,"end":3427.882,"text":"我想各個黨團應該都有聽到接下來本來就是立法院在針對不同的訴求不同的利害衝突的考慮要去進行一個權衡做出立法的工作我想說針對程序性的事項先做以上的說明接下來不曉得中國國民黨黨團是要由哪位來我們請陳委員"},{"start":3430.943,"end":3450.524,"text":"謝謝主席我在這邊也要跟主席還有這麼多委員講述一下對於沒有每天在胃黃委員會的委員希望不要隨便臆測胃黃委員會發生了什麼事情因為我跟陳昭之委員幾乎每天七點就到胃黃委員會為什麼剛講的提案還沒有審"},{"start":3451.525,"end":3474.013,"text":"是因為我們考量環境部環境部的官員一直告訴我們說他們會修執法所以叫我們緩一緩我們自己每一個人在委員會提案了多少次我本人就提案兩次的加研並且質詢至少超過十次以上但是環境部始終來拜託我們要給一點時間研擬來加研"},{"start":3476.914,"end":3488.748,"text":"所以不了解未還委員會在做什麼事情的人不用隨便的臆測未還委員會發生了什麼事情那為什麼剛剛聽到民進黨黨團打臉環境部這麼明顯是因為最近就在我們未還委員會連經濟部都打臉了環境部"},{"start":3496.397,"end":3524.951,"text":"我們從風災開始的時候我們就不斷的質詢環境部跟經濟部唱賀片片有序號片片找的回來這件事情到底是不是屬實當時8月的時候環境部說他們可以把這些光電板分類提早退休的還有找不回來的以及他本來就應該要除役的消失的 碎掉的之後會照一個序號列出來"},{"start":3526.071,"end":3545.84,"text":"8月說要給我們 延到9月中9月又說10月最後11月是直接經濟部一紙公文經濟部也不問環境部了經濟部直接一紙公文給我說量體真的太大了所以這個偏偏有序號最後提供序號清單這件事情是不可行的"},{"start":3547.273,"end":3567.037,"text":"從這個故事你就知道為什麼我們希望把它提升到母法為什麼我們覺得這件事刻不容緩因為環境部跟經濟部可以為了他們自己製作的圖卡偏偏有序號做不到這件事就在我們未還委員會這樣支支吾吾的三個多月都講不出原因所以剛剛很多委員講得很好我們在很多離奇的地方發現光電板"},{"start":3577.679,"end":3597.775,"text":"開發綠能很棒我們現在也發現問題了所以我們現在就來解決這個問題最近這幾天也有很多全台灣的環境團體來拜訪我包括我本人都已經跟著他們去很多地方看過你會覺得極度破壞生態的地方居然鋪著光電板居然無法可管"},{"start":3600.294,"end":3614.043,"text":"雖然大家都反應 環境部說要廣納意見可是這個時間真的是拖延的非常太久了反應要加嚴 限制的做法目前沒有採納所以我想民眾黨之所以才會有今天這個母法的修正 謝謝好 謝謝現在各個黨團都發表了兩輪的看法那不曉得我們的主管機關是不是有什麼話想說"},{"start":3625.65,"end":3653.464,"text":"環境部希望發言嗎因為之前在委員會質詢的時候我相信彭部長在詢答的過程當中我們該給他的提醒都提醒了所謂該給他的提醒我想包括陳委員在內包括陳昭志委員在內很多未完委員會的委員大家都很認真在質詢這件事情當然關心有關於光電板"},{"start":3654.184,"end":3673.952,"text":"我們在支持綠能的同時不希望它破壞我們的好山好水搞到台灣山也光電板海也光電板到處都是光電板然後我們在外防委員會質詢彭部長的時候那部長也提醒過彭部長說你們之前完全"},{"start":3675.1,"end":3689.011,"text":"免還品之前是完全免還品完全免還品他上任以後採用執法的方式去做了一些規範那但是過去再半年多發展出來的經驗發現當初授權給環境部讓環境部去訂執法那那個執法問題很多"},{"start":3696.716,"end":3724.728,"text":"造成的例子我就不要再一一列舉了因為這畢竟是黨團的協商啦那才會走到今天這樣子必須要透過修法來處理的狀況那我想這個前期的背景順著剛剛陳委員所說明的那也讓大家能夠了解一下那因為剛剛環境部的次長希望發言我應該沒有誤會吧是好那我們現在就先有請環境部"},{"start":3725.779,"end":3748.145,"text":"好 謝謝總召 謝謝我們各黨團的意見做幾點說明 第一點就是民國84年環評認定標準公告以來到目前30年總共修了15次 平均兩年一次 這第一點第二點就是目前民眾黨團所提出來的要把它修在母法的條文"},{"start":3749.205,"end":3777.013,"text":"事實上大部分是跟我們今年1月所公告的認定標準大部分的條文是跟我們公告認定標準不一樣大部分是一樣主要不一樣的地方就是在這個第一款的地方加上國家風景區跟脆弱敏感區域那我要說明就是目前的法律裡面沒有所謂的脆弱敏感區域的這個定義目前的法規裡面沒有這個脆弱敏感"},{"start":3778.631,"end":3804.953,"text":"這個定義的第一個那第二個不同的地方是第九款的設置水面型的太陽光電的規模那這個我們現在啟動的認定標準的修法裡面我們會把它納進去我會把它納進去這是第二個不同的地方那第三個不同的地方我想是影響比較大的就是不管任何區域不管任何區域就是說在民眾黨的第十款裡面只要設置或累積"},{"start":3806.787,"end":3834.22,"text":"裝置容量在2萬千瓦以上或者是累積的面積在10公頃以上就要做環評我想這一點如果通過的話將來對於綠電的發展是非常不利的就是不管它在什麼區位2萬就是20M跟10公頃日本目前是4萬日本是4萬以上韓國是10萬以上才要做環評"},{"start":3835.32,"end":3860.461,"text":"所以我們比它的這個規模要小很多所以除了這三個不一樣的以外大部分是跟我們在今年1月所公告的認定標準的修正是大同小異的那第三點就是我們希望說因為這個認定標準比較技術性常常需要修法如果是放在母法裡面將來要修正的彈性恐怕就比較少"},{"start":3861.041,"end":3887.911,"text":"我剛剛提過過去30年平均兩年修正一次所以我們建議說可不可以回到這個執法回到環評認定標準這邊來修正那剛剛各位委員所指教到的比如說哪些的敏感區位像潮間帶說現在沒有環評等等的這個將來在我們草案公告以後透過研商的過程裡面我們都可以來採納各方的意見把它放進來"},{"start":3889.091,"end":3916.971,"text":"大家覺得說什麼樣的區位是敏感的設這個光電板是會有影響的那可以在這個修訂的各款裡面把它加進來所以我們希望說是不是能夠回到認定標準依照原來的第五條的授權有認定標準這邊來修訂那我們目前也已經啟動修法我們是請各部會在10月30號給我們意見我們目前也理了一個這個草案報到行政院那等行政院同意以後我們就會來預告以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3921.84,"end":3948.512,"text":"剛剛環境部表達過看法在請經濟部的代表發言以前有個客觀的事實先請環境部說明一下從我們2016年開始推動有關於整個光電的政策到目前為止你剛剛所講的設置有關於必須要環評的認定標準環境部總共修訂了幾次"},{"start":3951.277,"end":3973.834,"text":"跟委員報告一開始因為是鼓勵綠電所以一開始就要求是在這個濕地重要濕地才要修才要送還品現在我問的不是內容我請教的是你修了幾次今年第二次就是因為太陽光電今年第二次今年指的是2025年嗎對就是1月的時候那第一次地是什麼時候98年"},{"start":3977.181,"end":3998.191,"text":"98年所以2016年以後到現在只修一次就是那個太陽光墊的部分所以我們從2016年到現在2025年過去9年的期間當中只修了一次因為整個認定標準總共有45項開發因為剛剛你提到時間剛剛你提到說環評法的修正是兩年就修一次"},{"start":4000.912,"end":4013.301,"text":"因為他有45項開發行為他兩年修一次光電的部分你們是九年修了一次這客觀的數字你要談時間就論時間這些客觀的資訊要讓關心這個議題的公民大家都了解"},{"start":4018.385,"end":4046.46,"text":"那要不然你拿香蕉比橘子那比較的基準是什麼也要講清楚嘛感覺好像是行政命令在法規作業程序上比較有彈性嘛那但實際上面的實踐好像也不是這個樣子嘛跟你剛剛所不斷的強調的是環評法兩年就修一次那要攸關這個給授權給你們行政命令搞到九年才修一次這客觀數字上面時間的事情總是要讓大家能夠理解嘛"},{"start":4047.298,"end":4057.214,"text":"好 我們接下來請經濟部的代表好 主席 主委委員 大家午安那在這邊有幾點跟各位說明"},{"start":4058.035,"end":4085.721,"text":"那今年我也去參加APEC的能源部長會議那亞洲世界各國APEC的國家都認為綠電是一個非常重要的也期待說在未來在再生能源特別是綠電的這個部分的占比能大幅的提升因為占比若不能大幅的提升隨著我們的民眾用電的需求的情況之下那未來就會仰賴傳統的這個能源"},{"start":4088.519,"end":4100.697,"text":"而世界各國也把太陽能光電都視為低強度的開發行為對於地理環境跟我們比較相近的亞洲鄰近的國家"},{"start":4102.492,"end":4124.444,"text":"光電環評的標準也是採用一定規模以上比如說在日本就是40MW 韓國就是100MW對於海島型的國家 甚至是像新加坡新加坡也只有個案的認定光電的發展對我們國家非常的需要"},{"start":4126.277,"end":4153.924,"text":"我們也是一個出口導向的國家我們的產業界也需要綠能的部分來達成它的R100的需求而若是沒有辦法足夠的綠能或是綠能的發展遲延而影響到它的產業的發展的過程裡面對於出口訂單的影響或是產線轉移的部分產業界也表示一定的擔憂"},{"start":4155.595,"end":4167.716,"text":"那第二點的部分是剛剛聆聽主委委員的指教意見有很多在在生能源的發展的過程裡面有一些的疑慮或是認為有違法的地方"},{"start":4168.857,"end":4195.069,"text":"那事實上這個有各該的作用法在現行就可以去管理比如說在山坡地濫墾濫伐違法的行為在山坡地的水路保持法裡面就可以去進行規範至於廢棄物的部分在廢棄物清理法裡面就可以有相關的這個規範那第三大點跟主席跟諸委員報告的是我們在"},{"start":4196.201,"end":4211.069,"text":"淨零的過程裡面我們的能源部門有定期的跟社會去進行的溝通那環境影響評估認定標準及細項事實上是每年都有依照這個環境部"},{"start":4212.199,"end":4231.527,"text":"召集相關的這個利害關係人在環境部依照現行的母法及執法的規定的範圍內來去進行相關的討論那也有很多的產業跟團體認為說在現行的這個討論的機制之下他比現在"},{"start":4233.598,"end":4243.845,"text":"有某些黨團提出來要修法直接拿到母法裡面來討論他們認為這個部分更能與時俱進的去兼顧他們的需求"},{"start":4246.311,"end":4269.88,"text":"最後一點跟大家報告的事情是我們對於光電的發展的部分近幾年來特別是在今年有一些的策進的作為首先就違法的一個樣態我們跟高檢署有一個平台我們也不希望有違法業者來對於我們的正常的產業發展會有影響"},{"start":4271.941,"end":4297.816,"text":"這是第一個 第二個部分在今年年初環境部也公告了比如說光電在山坡地的發展他在20M或是15公頃以上應該來辦理環評那這個部分經濟部跟相關的這個再生能源特別是光電的這個業者的話我們絕對會依照現行的規定那我們也期待說在"},{"start":4299.276,"end":4310.036,"text":"環境部目前的執法的討論的這個架構之下我們來討論未來在光電上面在環境的把關上面如何來強化以上"},{"start":4313.633,"end":4337.924,"text":"謝謝經濟部的代表我想各個黨團針對這個環評法相關要不要放在法律還是放在行政命令繼續授權給環境部大家都表達了看法第一個案子我看是沒有辦法有什麼共識因為連基本上面的態度都不太一樣我們要詢問行政局 因為他答覆了我們可以追問"},{"start":4339.315,"end":4359.861,"text":"先等我一下就是我現在還是會徵詢各個黨團的意見就是說我們現在因為這個是黨團協商那我們要針對第一案行政部門所提出來的問題剛表達的意見剛剛民主進步黨黨團鍾嘉斌委員說他想要詢問行政部門的"},{"start":4361.587,"end":4388.188,"text":"有一些問題要問他們那我們現在是不是要開放各個黨團開始針對行政部門進行詢問的程序我先請教各個黨團因為民進黨希望能夠開放現在來詢問行政部門一些具體問題那其他的黨團大家是不是覺得要我們接下來的時間跟程序要往這個軸線上面持續的進行"},{"start":4401.477,"end":4403.681,"text":"那其他的黨團的代表呢"},{"start":4406.809,"end":4431.123,"text":"可以嗎那這樣子我們就再開放一輪發言那在發言的過程當中如果有一些事情要催詢行政部門的話那也就請在發言的時間當中做催詢那接下來要哪一個黨團先那既然中委員好像他希望先那個張熙凱委員是不是先讓中委員那我們就先請中委員"},{"start":4432.721,"end":4447.013,"text":"環境部因為我們現在環評法第五條它是規範的是實施環境影響評估的類別這是目前的現行法規它一共在第一項列了11款"},{"start":4449.383,"end":4465.804,"text":"那另外你們剛剛提到的執法是所謂的開發行為應實施反響評估細目及範圍認定標準你說這是執法這個目前有在修訂後重新公告徵求各界意見是不是這樣子"},{"start":4467.239,"end":4483.644,"text":"跟委員報告 簡單講就好因為我們時間有限最近的意思就是今年1月然後我們現在已經啟動了就是公告徵詢 要再修的那個部分現在報行政院同意後就可以預告那我請教一下在你們目前現在在公告在修訂公告的內容當中你們在這個29條第7"},{"start":4487.825,"end":4509.574,"text":"款的第七目有寫到三坡地當中裝置容量兩萬千瓦或者是設置面積15公頃以上對不對那麼像這樣的兩萬千瓦跟15公頃它為什麼之前沒有放在第五條的上位的母法當中是否說你們這些幾萬千瓦幾公頃是屬於會經常隨著滾動去調整 是不是這樣子是"},{"start":4513.956,"end":4529.119,"text":"好 那我們來看一下其實我本來是想請主席請我們會務單位來看一下國民黨團也就是在去年的7月5號由盧憲毅委員在內所提案的同樣的條文第5條"},{"start":4530.728,"end":4555.319,"text":"第五條裡面呢他跟現在的母法當中他的確也沒有去動到幾公頃幾萬千瓦因為顯然的這樣國民黨的他的修正條文的他也是似乎認同執法去規定這些幾萬公頃幾萬千瓦好但是呢他做了什麼修訂我們來看一下這個當中呢我們看到了他動了第幾款他動了第十款"},{"start":4556.804,"end":4571.721,"text":"那麼它本來呢第十款是核能及其他能源之開發及放射性核廢料儲存或處理場所之興建包含兩個一個是核能的開發一個是核廢料的存放那結果呢"},{"start":4574.613,"end":4600.36,"text":"這個國民黨團的意見呢他把核電廠的開發那個拿掉了他移到第十二款說只有保留什麼放射性廢棄物儲存處的設施之興建這是國民黨做的一個修正第二個他們另加了第十二 第十一款在濕地 埤塘 滯洪池 水庫及餘溫等水域空間進行太陽光電發電系統之開發"},{"start":4602.808,"end":4623.601,"text":"對啊 這不就是我們原來大家在討論的這段時間我們對於所謂的水面型光電不是只限於民生用水庫還包含了國民黨提案當中有濕地 有皮塘 有滋洪池 有水庫 有餘溫這些地方的性質屬性都各有不同"},{"start":4624.361,"end":4649.87,"text":"未來分別在這些水面型的地方它的開發行為 光電的開發行為當然要請環境部就這些不同的水面型的光電設置的屬性分別予以規範它的裝置容量跟設置面積我想要請環境部就因為這個法案 這個法條呢沒有機會在未還委員會討論我知道兩位陳委員都是未還委員的成員但是主席不是但是主席說"},{"start":4651.19,"end":4670.46,"text":"之前有問過好像剛聽了有問過經濟部的意見有問過衛環部的意見我就很好奇目前包括第五條去年7月5號交互委員會的都沒有排審目前我們在看的民眾黨團提的這個10月29號近乎二讀也沒有在委員會經過排審"},{"start":4671.894,"end":4697.682,"text":"那麼如何知道行政部門對相關問題的意見呢還是一樣跟主席一樣喜歡問A答B今天主席委員會召委排的是A議題結果問官員B議題 我不清楚是不是請環境部就這兩個部分來做說明第一 所謂的在你們的執法也就是說所謂的認定標準當中關於面積跟瓦數這個是不是在認定標準裡面去定"},{"start":4698.522,"end":4714.311,"text":"第二 國民黨提的第五條它拿掉了核能電源的開發放進了各種類型的水域那這些水域因為屬性不同未來如果按照國民黨的一個架構未來在執法的認定標準是不是要分別就這些水"},{"start":4715.311,"end":4744.064,"text":"水塘 湿地 湿地是生态 皮塘是我们经济用的制洪池更是另外一种水利工程水库跟渔温大有不同是不是应该要分别设定不同的标准认定标准 以上谢谢 一样程序上在说明一样现在协商的主题是第一点由台湾民众党党团拟据环境影响评估法第五条条文修正草案"},{"start":4745.236,"end":4771.382,"text":"那剛剛鍾嘉賓委員不慣的在點名主席然後提到盧憲一委員的提案那盧憲一委員的提案並不在這一次協商的範圍當中那盧委員如果想要禁夫惡毒的話其實可以跟陳輝京委員一樣他們就其他的法律有禁夫惡毒那那個在第二案 第三案 第四案就會在協商的範圍當中"},{"start":4773.042,"end":4787.914,"text":"我為的是認定標準跟無法進行的關係我不是在討論盧先生的議案剛剛你在發言的時候我並沒有插嘴請你就尊重請你就尊重主席的發言你誤導我你誤會我的意思的時候我也沒有插你的嘴"},{"start":4788.975,"end":4804.863,"text":"所以請中委員尊重主席的議事主持我只是就程序性的事項讓大家能夠聽得清楚要不然大家會誤會現在是在協商台灣民眾黨黨團的進夫二讀盧憲一委員的條文並不在協商的範圍內那當然"},{"start":4806.764,"end":4822.641,"text":"各個黨團如果針對台灣民眾黨黨團的環境影響評估法第五條要在協商的會議上提出修正動議那我們也都是歡迎的你提出修正動議以後就會成為在協商的範圍當中好那現在民進黨黨團已經發言完了我們現在請台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":4828.686,"end":4847.532,"text":"剛剛環境部的次長提說民眾黨所提的修正案裡面你們沒有脆弱敏感區域這個脆弱敏感區域是國土規劃裡面常常用當的名詞甚至內政部的國土署都有明確的定義請你看一下它又分一級跟二級"},{"start":4848.772,"end":4869.946,"text":"一級的環境敏感區域一共有26項第一項就是水土保持區第二項是河川區域26項是優良的農地我特別提這個我是要提醒因為在一個月前經濟部曾經被我打臉就是經濟部次長今天在現場當初我特別問到"},{"start":4871.717,"end":4892.109,"text":"環評的問題你們講說只要是敏感的脆弱的國土這個環境敏感區你們都要納入環評我就拿了剛剛講的我練的這個國土署明確的規範一級裡面的26項其中的第21項就是水庫的蓄水區跟集水區"},{"start":4896.499,"end":4923.163,"text":"有嗎 現在行政部門提出來的案子裡面要還平的有把水庫的集水區跟蓄水區放進去嗎這是第一個 第二個今天非常讓人家覺得遺憾也是憤慨跟沉痛的民進黨這麼怕還平嗎對於光電發生這麼多的這個弊案跟亂象你們都眼睛都看不到嗎屏東來的鍾嘉斌先生 立委"},{"start":4924.867,"end":4948.052,"text":"上次風災的時候 屏東的海上的這個光電板才10級風 你們說是17級風結果飄到澎湖去 你沒有看到嗎台南跟嘉義那麼多的1電公升的案子魚沒有養 或者是魚死了而且魚都變貴了連消費者現在去買魚都變貴了"},{"start":4950.765,"end":4977.284,"text":"而且被犧牲的是誰善良的台灣的農民跟漁民被破壞的是我們國家的土地跟漁溫政府為了要推動漁電共生把我們台灣的漁溫將近一半都化為是可以推動漁電共生的甚至室內的漁電共生連最基層的最基礎的說明會都不用辦更不要講環評了"},{"start":4979.924,"end":4986.337,"text":"我們今天提出這個修正案我們只是要求補破王把本來已經實施這麼多年的"},{"start":4988.144,"end":5011.477,"text":"授權給環境部去訂的這個執法顯然是漏洞百出現在是大家應該共同攜手來合作包括我希望環境部以後出去是抬著頭挺著胸你們是真正保護到環境的所以我們要把你的認定標準從執法提升為母法而且剛剛市長你也講了大部分的內容是一樣的我們是把某部分做得比較明確的一個規範讓它實施的強度可以更強"},{"start":5014.238,"end":5037.93,"text":"今天我要鄭重的呼籲我希望經過今天的討論跟未來的修法之後光電業者跟政府在外面是抬頭頂胸的不要每次講到光電的時候烏煙瘴氣的每隔一兩個禮拜 兩三個禮拜就出現一個弊案從台南的小二甲 88槍一直到我剛剛講的每次颱風來就出現一堆的這個問題剛剛講 陳委員在講"},{"start":5041.769,"end":5061.794,"text":"你環境部跟經濟部跟他保證你每一片光電板你都是有序號的你不只是回收錢不夠你要拿我們人民的納稅錢去負責做回收結果你現在連序號都找不出來怎麼對得起人民所以希望今天透過大家的溝通完之後"},{"start":5062.662,"end":5082.788,"text":"我們讓光電它的汙名可以洗刷把美名要回來透過補破網讓我們的綠電光電的發展是可以平順的整個產業是可以很光榮的不要像現在為止你本身就有太多肉都沒有補結果弄到後來民進黨的立委一直當打手一直在護衛問題會越來越嚴重 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員那中國國民黨現在請翁翁喬林委員發言"},{"start":5092.475,"end":5119.853,"text":"我首先要講的就是只要是對環境保護有利的法案就要加速的推動加速的進行剛剛中央兵委員有點名我們國民黨有些委員他們也有提出環境影響評估的修法但是畢竟中央兵委員就是不是在衛環委員會裡面他們不知道說是其實這些委員的提案的法條基本上跟今天所討論的法條是不一樣的"},{"start":5122.455,"end":5145.816,"text":"有些性質不同的法案基本上是不會納進來一起討論的所以講那樣子的話基本上是沒有意義的那再回過頭來我們來講就是說今天看起來這個民進黨就會支持我們在發展光電綠電的同時要重視環保嗎事實上也不是啊本席所提的國家公園法的法案不是就被你們附議嗎"},{"start":5146.957,"end":5171.374,"text":"所以這次也沒有辦法納在法案裡面一起討論我當時也是主張國家公園法是禁止鋪設光電板的所以我們想講的就是說其實今天這個環境影響評估法的討論基本上是有意義的即便是說可能就是主要是以民眾黨黨團的版本為主但是只要是對的法案我想應該是不分朝野委員"},{"start":5172.635,"end":5191.187,"text":"朝野委員都應該要鼓勵要加速的去支持還有就是說我們過去我們常講就是說在數位發展的過程當中村村有寬平可是現在我們看到在發展綠電的過程當中我們現在是山山水水有光電板"},{"start":5192.428,"end":5218.559,"text":"這不是大家所樂見的為什麼因為它的確是影響到整個的環境保護所以做環境影響評估我們要將環境影響評估做得更嚴格一些能夠為我們的環境保護來把關我覺得這個方向是對的現在我們所看到的民眾黨黨團所提出的第五條第三項的修正"},{"start":5219.319,"end":5239.31,"text":"裡面的很多的內容我基本上我想我們國民黨黨團這裡很多的方向基本上是支持的那麼更何況我們看到現在行政部門所提出來的認定標準每兩年才修一次平均每兩年才修一次這速度也未免太慢了吧"},{"start":5240.731,"end":5254.238,"text":"有這麼多的光電板鋪設的爭議發生就應該要非常快速的滾動式檢討如果你們今天能夠快速的滾動式的檢討我想也不至於說非得一定要來修法但是因為我們就先看到行政機關"},{"start":5256.038,"end":5280.145,"text":"就是你們擁有制定行政命令的權利但是卻不會好好的去使用好好的配合或是觀察我們現在所看到這些弊案去做快速的修正反而是一直擺爛放在那裡然後很慢的也不去做修正所以我們透過法律趕快把它這個把這個漏洞"},{"start":5280.945,"end":5288.889,"text":"填補起來我覺得這個方向是正確的所以今天我們討論這個環境影響評估第五條的修正案本席在這邊是全力支持好 謝謝我們各個黨團進行了三輪的發言第一個案子顯然沒有辦法有共識接下來我們進入協商主席第二個發展觀光條例第十一條條文什麼"},{"start":5310.24,"end":5315.846,"text":"行政部門就簡要回答吧OK是 第一個鍾嘉斌委員提到的"},{"start":5317.066,"end":5340.953,"text":"在母法的第5條它是規範應該要做環評的開發行為的類型所以原來是有10款第11款是其他所以我們根據這個其他已經公告目前總共是45項的開發行為至於每一項開發行為依照它的不同的區位有不同的開發面積跟規模那個是定在認定標準裡面去定"},{"start":5342.234,"end":5355.429,"text":"那第二個就剛提到說每兩年就剩一次其實這個是滾動檢討剛提到今年1月的時候我們才修認定標準把很多的這個現在民眾黨提出來的那一些光電要做環評的放進來"},{"start":5356.77,"end":5378.784,"text":"現在大家覺得說水庫型的水面型的有問題所以我們現在也啟動了這個修法所以這個是一個滾動的檢討我剛講的平均兩年是說這45項開發行為如果有人建議要修正我們就會啟動這個修正的這個所以目前要再修正的已經送到行政院行政院同意以後就會預告這樣的一個草案"},{"start":5385.818,"end":5406.789,"text":"所以其他的 其他剛剛提到的譬如說脆弱敏感區的這個因為這個最主要是在國土署那邊 今天國土署沒有來應該要問他就是說 如果是解脆弱敏感區域的話將來開發單位要去詢問他是不是位在脆弱敏感區域能不能查詢得到"},{"start":5407.549,"end":5420.215,"text":"因為這個必須要把範圍畫得很清楚讓我看到有沒有在裡面如果有在裡面那就OK如果沒在裡面的話那脆弱族群這個名字我們是需要再查證以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝行政機關的回覆其實我老實講你剛剛講的內容只是把你剛剛講的再重新講一次而已不過沒有關係啦我還是尊重也給你表達意見的機會"},{"start":5435.083,"end":5462.286,"text":"那第二個呢 我們那個發展觀光條例第11條條文的修正草案那不曉得哪一個黨團要先發言有哪一個黨團要先發言嗎不是 我尊重大家的意見啦有人想要先講嗎好 那個陳委員他先舉手了那我們就先讓陳委員發言"},{"start":5464.414,"end":5486.007,"text":"我們現在來看這個發展觀光條例這些國家級的風景區就是台灣的觀光門面獨一無二的自然地景還有人文風貌他們就是我們的觀光命脈現在竟然都一直說到要做觀光國家隊我不太懂為什麼要在這些地方鋪光電板最嚴重的等一下張奇懷維還在"},{"start":5488.393,"end":5515.491,"text":"他可以補充一下最嚴重的是我們有曾經到那邊去造訪我是另外這些環團帶著我去看雲嘉南的濱海國家風景區根本很多地方都被鋪設的亂七八糟我們認為這已經不叫做國家級風景區乾脆叫做光電示範區還比較名符其實所以我們去想像觀光是一個體驗的經濟當你千里迢迢的來到日月潭"},{"start":5518.853,"end":5534.119,"text":"看到的卻是一片一片在水面上飄的光電板或是在阿里山看雲海可是先看到一片光電海是情何以堪我們目前看到這些景象對我們而言都是一個不可回復的視覺衝擊"},{"start":5536.4,"end":5559.56,"text":"是對於生態浩劫的直接摧毀不只是美感它是影響我們的觀光價值扼殺了在地的一個產業鏈所以我們的法案是明定國家級風景特定區不得設置大規模的太陽光電系統如果各位對這個修正草案有疑慮的話請去網路上查東"},{"start":5561.281,"end":5579.249,"text":"石布袋北門將軍七鼓這整個範圍是不是很多環團拍照光電板的新聞光電板的照片這個畫面的衝擊是我們不能想像的也是不想留給我們下一代子孫的謝謝主席謝謝陳委員請問哪個黨團要接著表示意見"},{"start":5587.441,"end":5612.285,"text":"好 那個先請民主進步黨的陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席非常謝謝剛剛陳金輝委員就舉例是雲嘉南風景區你剛剛有說到我覺得幾個問題需要釐清我們都認同發展國家觀光用觀光軟實力吸引不同國家的人來到台灣認識台灣這絕對是台灣未來要走的一條路"},{"start":5612.845,"end":5631.996,"text":"尤其對於很多年輕人來說回鄉投入觀光投入地方創生投入文化跟教育的重新新世代的理解確實也是國家發展重要方向但是如果回到所謂的雲嘉南風景區我想要提醒大家雲嘉南風景區的畫社"},{"start":5633.188,"end":5647.702,"text":"大 有多大87802公頃請問一下大家雲嘉南風景區這麼大全部都是所謂的地質敏感區嗎都是不能有相關綠電或者是不同產業的進駐嗎我覺得這個問題都還值得討論"},{"start":5654.469,"end":5669.659,"text":"我當然認同在觀光地區如果看到過大面積的開發確實會影響視覺所以我看到不同委員的版本就是剛剛委員會所發下來的民眾黨黨團的寫法就直接寫"},{"start":5670.86,"end":5690.225,"text":"國家級風景特定區不得設置地面型太陽光電系統但經環境影響評估審查通過等等等等但是剛剛陳金輝委員您剛說您有版本你說的是大面積所以我真的不是很確定你們是深惡痛絕所有的綠電在國家級風景特定區還是你們認為"},{"start":5694.566,"end":5713.413,"text":"大範圍到底要大到多大是你們不能接受的其實在相關的版本裡面我們看得不是很清楚所以我要講的是當所有的土地不能被同一個角度來看待也就是並不是所有土地都具有敏感性所以如果我們要全面一概的禁止就只是您認為"},{"start":5714.713,"end":5739.681,"text":"有愛觀瞻或者是你覺得是不當開發或者是用保護環境的名義那我必須要說這些我們都很在意否則我們今天不會勇敢的坐在這裡跟各位面對面直球對決來協商談這件事情而且今天還是公開直播但我要講的是雲嘉南風景區他們所面臨的困境可能不是單一用環評的角度就可以解決"},{"start":5740.561,"end":5768.335,"text":"所以我也要拜託在野黨的委員當我們在談這件事情的時候會不會我們以為要解決問題但可能製造更多的問題例如說環團就提醒我們會不會變成另外室內餘電相關弊案的產生這都是我們在立法的時候所必須要顧及到的聲音另外我也想要回應剛陳金輝委員舉例日月談我要提醒日月談現在沒有光電板"},{"start":5768.755,"end":5791.789,"text":"我們在看很多案例的時候不是他有光電板他就是罪惡不是他有相關綠電開發他就是罪惡而且我要再說一次民進黨團始終支持有弊案該查就查該辦就辦這些問題已經講過很多次了我希望我們今天可以就法論法還有實務的操作面也非常的重要我剛剛已經再次強調以上謝謝"},{"start":5794.286,"end":5805.691,"text":"好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團的代表那最後我們請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表好 我想 葉次長您 次長我親眼見過您主持的環評會議"},{"start":5808.567,"end":5836.072,"text":"我連需要做環評的部分我都是看得非常汗顏明明在前幾天我們也行文環保團體告訴你們說你們在公告網站上開會前要有公告的資料那個資料的核心資料是缺乏的沒有一個第六章的核心資料是缺乏的而且人家有提出你們內部的檢舉者吹哨者提供我們的土地污染資料"},{"start":5837.253,"end":5848.159,"text":"我們三個立委出現在那個環民會議上告訴你們說今天這個資料要被重視要好好處理次長你直接告訴我你直接告訴我說以後再做行政訴訟"},{"start":5850.116,"end":5854.641,"text":"然後那天用17比0通過 我是說這個只有金正恩跟習近平的會議才會有17比0我親眼見到你處理需要環評的部分 您都尚且這樣處理後來證實崔少澤給的資料是正確的 確實土地有嚴重污染我想你也知道我指的是哪個案子"},{"start":5871.596,"end":5885.688,"text":"所以今天我想說最重要的重點說本來是依照這個實質環境影響評估的這個政策細項就算還不在母法裡本來任何能源政策的規範都應該在開發前要做一次完整的政策環評"},{"start":5887.677,"end":5898.604,"text":"那你們的細項你事實上也沒有按照這個去做事實上今年1月以前你都利用很寬鬆的這個開發新聞應實施這個環境評估的細項跟認定標準去規範即便看他們的濫砍樹林屁案的狀況你們還是用很寬鬆的標準去看而且今年1月你們是偷偷的修訂偷偷的修訂所以在這個情況之下我沒有辦法接受你們過去的這個做法我們認為只有"},{"start":5918.197,"end":5943.044,"text":"要必須很明定包括我們今天提出的那個國家公園特定農業區等而且要求到母法的未接在你們非母法在執法我已經見識過了我沒有辦法信任環境部根據執法自己去做因為這個事實後來被證明是事實的這個有違法的部分你們都當時你主持的時候那麼的篤定"},{"start":5945.322,"end":5952.33,"text":"你也不讓這個團團者發言我們三個立委在現場你也不讓我們發言"},{"start":5954.801,"end":5975.428,"text":"所以我們今天堅持說其實我們只是在彌補過去國家只會鼓勵光電的進行但是對於整個這個不管是防災的規劃或是這個環境責任完全付諸缺乳你們完全在配合經濟部的開發所以這個信任度已經沒有了沒有這個信任就像我們想要把這個"},{"start":5977.622,"end":5986.929,"text":"所謂執法把它提升到母法的位階這只是基本的最基本的對民眾對我們台灣這塊土地的基本交代好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在所在協商的第二個案子是針對有關於發展觀光條例第11條"},{"start":5998.61,"end":6019.858,"text":"主要規範各個黨團政策立場不一樣的是國家風景區的部分是不是要開放繼續讓他們搞光電板所以全部禁止還是一定面積以下的經過環評可以做各個黨團也都表達了各個黨團的立場行政部門有要發表什麼意見嗎請"},{"start":6024.942,"end":6042.828,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我是交通部觀光署針對發官條例第十一條我們整個在做開發的過程就是大家謝謝大家關心國家風景管理區我們是依照環境部環評認定標準執法的部分第29條第7款第7目"},{"start":6045.809,"end":6062.6,"text":"那位在山坡地国家风景区或者是台湾沿海地区自然环境保护计划核定公告这一般保护区申请开发或累计开发面积一公顷以上都要进行环平那刚刚委员有特别提到我们云嘉南的那个部分"},{"start":6063.521,"end":6075.776,"text":"雲嘉南在我們過去的就是太陽能板面積它是在544平方公米是在我們現在目前的範圍之內所以應該以上先做這樣一個補充 謝謝好 謝謝那謝謝所做的補充"},{"start":6082.486,"end":6095.585,"text":"因為其實其他兩岸性質上面一樣我們就繼續表達意見因為剛剛講的是國家風景區下一個就是國家公園對不起我看一下第三個部分是國家公園法"},{"start":6097.827,"end":6125.592,"text":"協商的標的有三個一個是國家公園法是台灣民眾黨黨團一個是林建啟委員一個是陳新輝委員那在處理的標的都是國家公園法13條那基本上也涉及到的就是在國家公園裡面我們是不是應該繼續的允許他們搞光電板大概就基本上在討論的課題是這個樣子啦那針對這件事情不曉得哪一個黨團要先表示意見"},{"start":6129.42,"end":6131.251,"text":"好那我們先請那個林倩琦委員"},{"start":6132.489,"end":6158.622,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們依據國家公園法很重要的一點最主要是在保護國家特有之自然風景野生物及史蹟雖然當前我們在能源轉型跟綠色經濟的推動下推展再生能源擴大太陽能光電的部署確實是很重要的我們來達成碳中和目標的一個重要的路徑"},{"start":6159.742,"end":6186.417,"text":"但是選址規劃開發程序跟環境生態之間的平衡我認為絕對是要重視的那我拿這邊日本的幾個案例來跟大家做一個補充日本北海道的川陸濕原是日本最大的濕地也是國際拉薩姆公約指定的保護區更是國家特別天然紀念物丹頂鶴的珍稀野生動物的棲地"},{"start":6187.578,"end":6201.444,"text":"近年周邊卻出現大規模的兆瓦級太陽能光電開發案導致地形變動 填土工程砍伐作業也使得失地水文條件生態鏈跟景觀面臨嚴重衝擊"},{"start":6205.345,"end":6226.333,"text":"那麼整個日本的環境省也著手開始評估擴大失源保護的一個範圍並考慮納入更多未保護的邊緣地帶並藉由自然公園法來建構禁止開發區許可置區申報置區的制度強化再生能源跟自然保護之間的一個管制機制"},{"start":6227.173,"end":6246.987,"text":"那麼日本的官員也坦承這個新的修法也沒有辦法來歸管已經進駐的大型案場造成生態的衝擊已經沒有辦法回復了這個是日本的狀況那麼這個案例對我們很重要的啟示就是說再生能源雖然很重要但是如果忽略選址的一個生態風險監管經濟沒有早點來制定的話那麼環境保護法"},{"start":6251.55,"end":6269.489,"text":"如果沒有辦法在配套上做好那就會造成綠能化生環境殺手的一個逆向的結果所以國家公園是我們很重要的自然生態地景景觀跟生物多樣性的一個最高級的保護區域那整個的任務是在於保育而不是開發利用"},{"start":6270.925,"end":6284.521,"text":"整個生態環境保護的功能本席認為應該明定在國家公園區域內不得設置再生能源的設施僅允許附屬既有國家公園的一個管理的設施像山屋"},{"start":6285.792,"end":6314.975,"text":"遊客中心的屋頂或者是辦公廳設規模極小自用而且不能對外受電之再生能源的設置重點有以下幾點整個國土規劃跟稀缺性是很重要的所以我國國家公園的範圍相對有限那都是山海地景段深山跟濕地區域油氣人潮人為的衝擊已經很高了那相較於其他的國家像日本那麼或者是"},{"start":6315.615,"end":6336.008,"text":"日本的國立或準國立的公園的範圍比較廣土地的利用彈性也比較高但是呢我國如果在國家公園內再細分可供大型案場設置的區域一定會削弱保育的功能這個是國家公園很重要的一個阻止另外在生態敏感區域國家公園內有"},{"start":6336.929,"end":6356.182,"text":"很多珍稀物種棲地地形水文敏感區跟生態鏈高度的一個完整性大型光電暗場通常需要很大範圍的砍伐填土改變地形會導致水文的改變棲地的破滅跟入侵機會會增加景觀當然就更不用講了"},{"start":6357.063,"end":6380.421,"text":"所以很重要的這點是制度的一致性跟前瞻性目前我們國在國家公園的建物屋頂或停車場有設有一些自用的小型光電設施但是它不是一種大規模的外售案場如果允許大規模的案場進駐恐怕會與國家公園以保育為優先的法定目的產生矛盾所以我們必須要先做風險的一個評估跟責任的預防"},{"start":6382.603,"end":6387.931,"text":"如果我們沒有先設限的話那造成國家公園本來應該擔負的自然碳匯生物多樣性的保護可能會被侵蝕那麼觀光的價值也會降低那地方民眾的反彈更不用講了反而會阻礙整個"},{"start":6399.287,"end":6424.542,"text":"政策整體的一個推動因此本席在這邊主張國家公園內應該全面禁止再生能源的設置僅允許附屬於園區管理而非對外售電之設備以上 謝謝好 謝謝林建勤委員那接下來不曉得哪一位黨團的代表來先請民主進步黨黨團陳培宇委員"},{"start":6425.481,"end":6450.215,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為剛剛是林倩琪委員發言我們來看一下林倩琪委員的版本是說設置再生能源發電設備你認為必須要放在第十三條國家公園法第十三條是明定禁止的但是你有說到附屬公共設施這些不在此限那看起來民眾黨黨團的版本也是說設置地面型太陽光電系統 淡金環境評估 這些好"},{"start":6450.735,"end":6476.551,"text":"但是我要提醒這兩個提案的委員跟黨團目前第13條的寫法是針對人做出規範人不可以焚灰草木營火整地人不可以狩獵動物人不可以捕捉魚類人不可以污染水質但是我不確定為什麼你們的寫法要放進第13條我覺得有點怪怪的有點不符合這個條文原本規範這個事情但是請讓我講完 謝謝"},{"start":6480.12,"end":6503.073,"text":"再來我要提醒我也想要問一下就是呢目前國家公園法裡面其實就規定關於所謂的一般管制區油氣區使機保存區特別景觀區生態保護區都有相關的土地使用規範也就是說在各位大委員你們擔心之前其實國家公園法針對國家公園裡面的用地規範都已經有明定禁止"},{"start":6503.553,"end":6528.46,"text":"而且在這些條文裡頭也說得很清楚並沒有正面直接允許相關所謂綠電開發設施設備可以放在這些地方也就是說他們並沒有正面支持說可以做這個事情並沒有直接允許因此目前這個寫法我們還是會很好奇為什麼你們要這樣寫那會不會讓人家誤會另外我也想要提醒大家目前"},{"start":6530.501,"end":6544.754,"text":"針對所謂你們所擔心的光電設施的設立如果各位大委員擔心在國家公園裡面會所謂破壞環境或是影響當地的生態甚至你們認為國家公園裡面有所謂的敏感地形"},{"start":6545.675,"end":6569.816,"text":"敏感的地質這些都不在所謂的我剛說的一般管制區、有氣區、使機保存區、特別景觀區、生態保護區你們都認為不在這個框框裡頭你們想要開一個更強度的土地使用規範但是完全禁建到底這樣的規範是不是適合的也要拜託委員們想一想因為像這樣的禁限建的規範是不是在污名化光電這件事情還有"},{"start":6570.977,"end":6594.077,"text":"國家公園裡面有一個東西非常重要可能大委員們都忘記了裡面其實有所謂私人的合法建物而這個私人合法建物如果他今天要自用自己裝光電板在屋頂然後自己用那是不是也變成你們的規範範圍他就完全沒有辦法蓋在他們家這個部分我也很好奇你們是怎麼看"},{"start":6594.477,"end":6619.419,"text":"因為你們有的人是寫再生能源發電設備有的是寫設置地面型太陽光電等等系統所以我覺得把國家公園裡面私有的合法建物的住戶的權益也一併剝奪這個部分要拜託委員們三思 以上謝謝好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團的代表接下來是不是請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表張綺凱委員"},{"start":6621.178,"end":6650.24,"text":"陳培宇 陳委員說有人汙名化了光電葉或光電板光電板這麼多弊案本身就過黑了只有民進黨沒看到還是要當打手一直在掩護 掩護弊案謝謝張祺凱委員 我都有看到對 大樹鄉 大樹區高雄大樹區那個山被鏟平了依照 依照規定依照環境不定的這個執法說設置的這個面積不能夠超過15公頃大家知道嗎"},{"start":6651.4,"end":6673.419,"text":"大樹後來那個開發後來產生土石流 幾公頃51公頃欸 只有民進黨跟主管金融環境部沒看到嗎你自己訂了一個15公頃 不能超過15公頃結果開發的是51公頃這麼嚴重的違法 土石流要沖下來危害到人民的財產生命安全民進黨有看到 環境部有看到 經濟部有看到嗎"},{"start":6674.676,"end":6701.438,"text":"所以當然今天要修法啊民眾黨清楚不能夠超過五公頃而且要定在母法裡面不是子法剛剛陳培宇一直在講說什麼國家級的風景區啦什麼國家公園請你看好台灣民眾黨的提案我們重視的是環評它不是完全不能設置我們的兩個非常重要的你國家公園本來就是要保護啊它本身禁止的項目就有七項我們增加了第八項"},{"start":6703.148,"end":6732.134,"text":"我們要求兩個 第一個 你不是完全不能開發可是你的面積不能夠太大所以你累積的面積不能超過一公頃 這是一個第二個 你要經過嚴格的環評嘛這樣才能夠保護你的國家公園啊 一樣啊國家級的風景特定區 剛剛陳俊輝 陳委員在講阿靠的故鄉 為嘉義分離 嘉義大陸那裡就過了像北門 北門是國家級的這個 私地耶"},{"start":6733.294,"end":6734.814,"text":"黑麵皮露在那邊每年這邊來我們自己來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":6763.052,"end":6787.243,"text":"要經過環評第二個你累積的這個面積就不能夠超過一公頃嘛你們搞到現在整個那個海岸線變成破碎了好像東西一塊是一塊的布丁連很多國際級的那個旅遊雜誌都要笑一個這麼好的台灣美麗的台灣漂亮的海岸線被民進黨政府發展一個光電也不好好去規範"},{"start":6788.786,"end":6796.431,"text":"搞到整個生態都破壞掉了請民進黨不要再欺負我們善良的農民跟移民也不要再破壞我們美麗的台灣好 謝謝針對國家公園裡面到底政策上法規的限制上應不應該允許設置太陽光電系統的這件事情各個黨團表達的看法"},{"start":6816.722,"end":6840.714,"text":"那現在其實分成兩個層次啦一個現行的法規到底可不可以做第二個那如果現行的法規是可以做的話那政策的立場上我們應不應該允許他可以做太陽光電其實簡單來講大家的看法不一樣就是這裡那主管機關要不要表達一下看法好請"},{"start":6843.208,"end":6858.208,"text":"各位委員好 我是國在公園署署長首先感謝各位委員對於國在公園的一個關心確實國在公園目前是以保育還有永續環境為最高的一個保護區域"},{"start":6860.231,"end":6874.976,"text":"那現行的 剛剛主席提到的現行的國家公園法我們在土管的部分是分布在第14條到第20條也就是說最鬆的一般管制區到最嚴格的這個生態保育區"},{"start":6875.896,"end":6890.348,"text":"通通不允許太陽能設施的這個光電的一個設施已經完全是正面表列裡面就沒有這一幾項所以絕對不能做但是目前剛剛委員提到"},{"start":6891.388,"end":6917.125,"text":"環評的部分事實上在那個環評法的一個那個執法裡面開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目跟範圍的這個標準裡面也有針對國家公園一定要實施環評但是屬於屋頂設施的這個太陽能光電事實上是不需要這是我想我們先回到主題現在目前就已經不允許做太陽能光電再生能源設施"},{"start":6917.685,"end":6945.877,"text":"那第二個部分我想還是再補充一下就是說目前國家公園法第13條各位委員放在第13條的第8款感謝各位委員事實上在這條裡面真的就是當初立法的一個意旨就是在禁止遊客行為所以我們對遊客行為不能怎樣不能怎樣那對於土地的話是放在第14到第20條這樣子所以跟各位委員做個這樣的一個補充 謝謝"},{"start":6947.915,"end":6971.103,"text":"我有一個事情請教主管機關就是說按照你剛剛所講的解釋現行國家公園我們不需要修任何法律就不准設太陽光墊是嗎因為我怕誤會你的意思依照現行法就不准如果依照現行法就不准的話"},{"start":6972.642,"end":6986.063,"text":"那為什麼還有在國家公園裡面要環評的問題不准就不准了那還有什麼要環評的必要性連環評都不用做啦因為就是不准啊這個是我聽不懂的地方"},{"start":6987.427,"end":7014.085,"text":"還是說環境部在訂他們的開發行為要實施環境影響評估認定範圍的時候有一些誤會因為你剛剛跟所有的委員還有跟社會大眾講是現在就絕對不準嘛那可是環境部現在的規範是經過環評以後可以這樣大家就聽不懂啊到底是可以還不可以如果是絕對不準那怎麼會有環評的必要呢"},{"start":7015.27,"end":7040.76,"text":"可不可以請你具體的說明一下因為你們現在兩個主管機關擺出來的法規你代表國家公園說國家公園現在就不准設光電板依照現有的規範就是這個樣子那就奇怪了那環境不定那個辦法是那既然不准哪裡有什麼經過環評的必要性我完全聽不懂是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":7043.211,"end":7059.008,"text":"是的 因為目前現任法規確實是沒有正面表列可以做那就是不能做那當初我想當初在那個環境影響評估這個事情細則認定標準的時候可能是這一部分我們"},{"start":7060.593,"end":7088.103,"text":"兩邊的主管機關可能沒有注意到這個問題所以這個部分其實事實上是那個環境部要不要說明一下國家公園署說你們在訂那個環境影響評估的辦法的時候沒有注意到這方面的問題因為這樣造成大家很大的誤會因為法律的規範要蠻清楚的今天如果今天國家公園署的主管機關說現在依照規範就不准"},{"start":7089.281,"end":7098.294,"text":"搞光電那就清楚了嘛就沒有什麼修法的必要那但是你們現在環境部的"},{"start":7100.151,"end":7121.906,"text":"環評標準裡面又說設在國家公園裡面要設環評那不準就不準了還要搞什麼環評那環境部在訂這個辦法的時候是法規有誤會嗎還是怎麼樣是不是請環境部說明一下因為剛國家公園署似乎是指摘你們好像對現行的規範有誤會那環境部要不要說明一下"},{"start":7125.636,"end":7153.283,"text":"如果說木地事業主管這邊提到說國家公園裡面就是禁止設太陽能光電板事實上就是不用做環評即使送來環評我們也會退回就不會去審查不是啊那不是你退不退回的問題啊是你在規範上面寫說在國家公園裡面要經環評啊人家現在說就不准設啊你說經環評可以啊你們當初在公告這個認定標準的時候有經過行政院嗎有嗎"},{"start":7154.946,"end":7182.466,"text":"都有預告然後有請相關機關來表示意見所以當初國家公園署沒有表示到意見是嗎沒有啦因為不好意思喔就各個黨團政策上的立場我都尊重那只不過說因為主管機關在法規的解釋上出現了南圓北側的一個解釋那我作為主席老實說我聽不懂"},{"start":7183.386,"end":7195.662,"text":"所以我才請他們釐清一下所以剛剛先請主管機關針對法規的解釋適用的部分先做了一個說明那我們現在進行第二輪的發言來請翁委員"},{"start":7201.42,"end":7212.169,"text":"我是要剛針對國家公園署的署長您剛說是國家公園法第14條但是第14條的規定基本上的意思是說"},{"start":7213.618,"end":7241.505,"text":"一般的管制區或是油氣區內經過國家公園管理處之許可就可以做一些開發等等的使用那現在只是說你沒許可但是這並沒有在條裡面並沒有明文禁止說在國家公園區是不可以設置光電板換句話說只要你們許可了就可以了那我不信的意思是講說因為這會給你們國家公園處很大的一個裁量權"},{"start":7242.725,"end":7247.528,"text":"而且以現在的情況來看你看甚至連環境影響評估的認定標準裡面現在的第6條本來是在國有的土地的上面是不應該如果說要設置光碟板的話要實施環境影響評估你們自己的認定標準裡面都講說經過能源主管 經關同意者不在此限"},{"start":7267.443,"end":7274.504,"text":"換句話說在國有事業的土地上面要設置光電板"},{"start":7276.072,"end":7297.674,"text":"我们认为其实这是不妥可是南云主管机关只要是他同意他有极大的裁量权他们就可以设置但依照你现在的国家公益法第14条你的规定看起来也是这样只要是国家公益处同意了那就可以做这跟我们的立法政策是不一样的是南云北侧我们认为说就算你同意也不可以做"},{"start":7300.009,"end":7307.334,"text":"平東縣有國家公園國家公園是個高度規管的特殊領域根據國家公園法的規定特別是第14條它是正面表列換言之不在正面表列的行為"},{"start":7328.71,"end":7349.193,"text":"國家公園管理處完全沒有允許的餘地再講一次正面表列的意思是說沒有什麼禁不禁止啦你沒有在這一個實款當中你連來申請都不用申請國家公園沒有可能准給你必須是正面表列的行為國家公園管理當局才有准薄的餘地"},{"start":7350.41,"end":7367.64,"text":"這很清楚所以只要這裡面國家公園法裡面有寫進去正面表列的不管其他的部會有沒有許可國家公園管理當局根本沒有準博的餘地就是不準至於說環境影響評估要不要做那是另一個問題"},{"start":7369.261,"end":7383.745,"text":"如果說今天國家公園法當中有把所謂的光電設施放在裡面是屬於正面表列的可以准語的行為但是環境部說不管你在哪裡就在國家公園裡面要經過環評那縱使沒有經過"},{"start":7388.161,"end":7407.14,"text":"環境部的環評國家公務員也准不了因為這是兩個不同目的的主管機關因為是管了國家公務員的區域範圍內有沒有正面的行為才可以來跟我申請至於你符合這個正面表達的行為你來跟我申請了還有其他的目的事業主管機關定在他的法裡面要求要通過環評"},{"start":7408.98,"end":7414.231,"text":"換言之反過來說 縱使環境部你們訂了在國家公園範圍內的光電設施也要經過環評"},{"start":7418.666,"end":7439.046,"text":"但是國家公園法沒有正面表列把關鍵字放進去這個關鍵字也重視通過你們的反評也沒辦法進入國家公園內這個邏輯我是建議我們次長跟我們的署長回去參詳一下這個沒有很複雜我們常常過去我在屏東縣政府的時候就常常在環境部"},{"start":7439.666,"end":7463.852,"text":"跟國家公園管理當局那時候營建署我們就跑來跑去如果不在營建署規定的國家公園裡面的正面表列行為根本不用去問其他部會就不準了但是如果環境不準了不在國家公園的正面表列行為也不用問營建署因為也不會準 沒得準就這麼簡單我想兩位次長跟署長回去再參詳一下再好好的來思考如何回答"},{"start":7465.883,"end":7490.004,"text":"那個國家公務員署你有要補充說明嗎你要不要修正一下你的答案我先回答翁委員的意見我們14條這邊來講的話是在這些正面表列這些才可以許可 還可以做這邊正面表列就沒有太陽能光電"},{"start":7491.937,"end":7499.152,"text":"這次光電板他總是要挖地啊對啊總是會破壞那個土地啊你這個就是代表可以啊"},{"start":7501.038,"end":7521.971,"text":"你知道我的意思就是設置光電板它是一個籠統的概念但是它裡面會涉及到很多不同階段的行為而你不同階段行為裡面都在你現在這邊講的正面表列可以同意許可的行為裡面因為這邊就沒有寫說再生能源設備或者太陽能光電這邊就沒有所以我們不會許可這方面的相關的這些開發行為這樣子好 沒關係現在陳培宇委員有問題"},{"start":7528.652,"end":7534.28,"text":"主席我來救他們一下我猜 翁委員你應該在意的是第14條"},{"start":7536.385,"end":7564.984,"text":"第十四條的第十款第一項第十款來來來歐委員我們來澄清一下第一項第十款裡面除了剛正面表列事情必須要經主管機關許可第十條寫了一個很大的Range叫其他需經主管機關許可事項我猜歐委員可能在擔心說如果今天有人要來挖然後就跟你申請這個空間你好像很大你就可以做這個事情那我先說我要再次提醒因為剛剛署長你的發言也讓我們非常擔心"},{"start":7567.325,"end":7591.906,"text":"我們對國家公園的想像當然生態景觀這些觀光都沒有問題可是有一個實務是這樣子的署長你一定知道泰魯閣國家公園裡面有私人住戶是合法的秀林鄉大同大理部落三年前開始在民間社團的協助底下山上的民宿業者陸續在屋頂裝設新式太陽能板除電量是以前的20倍以上"},{"start":7592.646,"end":7619.504,"text":"這件事情你們知道嗎好這個事情好我先說這個事情我們是為了好我們是我們絕對不是為了那個什麼圖利廠商因為剛很多人在說圖利廠商而是在颱風的這樣的區間我們看到山區的部落我們確實需要發展自己的電網微電網我們希望不要受到主電網任何的變動因素所影響我們希望住在山區部落裡面的"},{"start":7620.425,"end":7642.735,"text":"所有鄉親朋友們在微電網這個系統的概念支持下他們有裝設屋頂太陽能板的可能性所以我剛剛才會在第一輪的發言的時候舉例我剛剛主要是不同的國家公園裡面都有私人合法建物它可能有自主微電網的需求的可能"},{"start":7643.155,"end":7656.59,"text":"那他們是不是就可以如同嘉賓幹事長剛剛所說的如果他對你們提出申請那可能可以適用剛剛所謂其他虛金主管機關許可事項然後你們再會同環境部去協助他看需不需要還品或是"},{"start":7658.412,"end":7684.587,"text":"可不可以有機會允許他們去設置所謂家戶用的微電網的部分我不確定歐小林委員是不是應該因為在擔心這些事情但是我說如果是像這樣子的事情其實我們要更多支持的是完善的法規協助當地的住民有自主微電網這件事情以上 謝謝所以要拜託國土那個不好意思 署長我覺得你真的話要講清楚了因為"},{"start":7686.332,"end":7703.731,"text":"你剛剛對法規的解釋連執政黨的委員都提出了挑戰他顯然是不認同你剛剛對國家公園法解釋的方式因為我覺得這也正常啦我們在這邊協商就是給你機會把立場"},{"start":7705.034,"end":7728.508,"text":"跟現在法規範的狀態到底是什麼因為如果剛剛陳培宇委員所講的是客觀真實存在的狀況的話那代表你剛剛所講的完全是錯誤的因為現在就存在啦那現在就存在了你還說現在不行那明明就有啦那現在是到底是什麼狀況是不是署長你把它解釋清楚會比較好一點"},{"start":7729.853,"end":7754.482,"text":"我剛剛其實也有提到就是說目前現有的山屋或者是我們館處的屋頂這些或者停車場的這些屋頂事實上就可以做太陽能光墊這個是可以的我們剛才提到的是地面型的水面型的這些當然我們通通是土地管理那一塊我們當然是不行我先停一下剛剛你說可以的可以的依據是什麼"},{"start":7755.58,"end":7770.409,"text":"因為按照你剛剛的說法是正面表列正面表列沒有的就不可以那你剛剛說屋頂什麼又可以了那可以是在你正面表列的第幾款可不可以跟大家稍微說明一下你們的法規適用"},{"start":7771.269,"end":7793.789,"text":"是的 這個事實上在建築技術規則的建築設計施工篇裡面不好意思 這不是建築技術規則的問題現在我們在討論的是國家公園法太陽能光電如果是附屬在這些建物上的這屬於附屬設施這些事實上是可以的對啊 但是剛剛我們從頭到尾你剛剛一直都在跟大家講說依照國家公園法的規定嘛"},{"start":7794.98,"end":7813.431,"text":"那你說國家公園法裡面沒有陣列表列的都是不行啊那現在大家在胡疑的是你的法規範解釋是不是正確啊那怎麼又變成到不好意思喔我現在在請教他問題我還沒有說完話主席我們是不是可以讓我們請教沒有 請他回答問題以後你有什麼問題我等一下會讓你問嘛剛剛你就在講國家公園法"},{"start":7820.765,"end":7844.893,"text":"我不會拼錯啦你說國家公園法沒有正面表列就不行我們現在看到了你又突然有多一個解釋跑到建築技術規則去了是不是請署長再跟大家示意一下登記下一個發言那個14條裡面的後面的這些是屬於土地管制的這一部分是土地管制的這一部分"},{"start":7845.424,"end":7861.001,"text":"那剛剛我回到了就是說屋頂的 山屋的或者是館處的這些屋頂設施 護室設施這些事實上是可以設置太陽能光墊的這是以自用為限的這些太陽能光墊事實上是可以來使用 謝謝"},{"start":7863.487,"end":7872.618,"text":"那個 好 謝謝署長的說明大家是不是聽得懂 我覺得沒有關係 他有他的說明那法規範的解釋 那個是歸法規範的解釋來 請莊嘉斌委員來 署長"},{"start":7878.021,"end":7899.168,"text":"因為可能很多在場的委員沒有在國家公園內處理過相關的行政申請程序那因為你剛剛有稍微講了一個叫做土地開發行為那麼建築上的一些失色國家公園內在屏東有很多民宅那請問民宅裡面要裝設抽水馬桶"},{"start":7900.236,"end":7929.374,"text":"要不要正面表列沒有在14條裡面可不可以我們當然不會去問因為那是建築行為建築行為本身如果已經取得建造的建築物它的上面要修屋瓦要附設光電板只要符合當時營建署或者現在國家公園管理署國家公園署你們當時核給建造的建築就是建築規範那我們就可以依照這個建築規範來跟你們申請是不是這樣子"},{"start":7930.214,"end":7944.847,"text":"所以要強調一次總不成我們的家在國家公園範圍內我們有一棟建築是有經過跟國家公園取得建造的現在我不管要換馬桶 還要修屋瓦還是要複設光電板"},{"start":7946.428,"end":7974.003,"text":"是不是只要符合建築規範符合你們當時合給我建造的建築規範我就可以來提出是不是這樣子因為我這個複設不管是修馬桶換屋瓦還是複設光電板都是建築屋上的行為不是所謂的土地開發行為你們這第14條裡面我看裡面極大部分除了第一幕之外除了第一幕是跟建築之外其他的部分都是涉及到土地的開發行為還有"},{"start":7976.384,"end":7999.777,"text":"額外的使用建造以外的這些設施像溫泉水源啊建築廣告招牌啦工廠的設施啊原來這些都在國家公園裡面如果經過你們許可的他有涉及到這些行為的就要經過你們經過許可嘛是不是這樣子那總不至於我家換屋啊根據建築公園跟你申請你也要說不可以嗎是不是這樣子請那個翁委員"},{"start":8007.478,"end":8024.309,"text":"剛剛署長這邊講的這國家公園管理處的許可現在重點在於第14條的許可你說現在在這個山屋上面設置小型光電板這個概念基本上是跟廣告招牌或其他類似物的設置基本上的概念是比較相似的"},{"start":8025.31,"end":8042.193,"text":"就算你們搖頭說這不等於像是廣告招牌或其他類似物的設置必須進入國家公寓許可但是你現在設置那個部分難道不需要經過其他主管機關許可嗎看起來是要嘛經過什麼你剛剛講什麼建築物的許可對不對你就算是經過其他的建築許可已經得到許可了之後你國家公寓管理處你還是要再發一個許可他才能夠做啊他才能夠設置啊"},{"start":8056.069,"end":8073.236,"text":"就光電是不是對 就小型光電板我們現在就是回到您剛剛講的山屋上面設置一個小型光電板那它要經過怎麼樣的程序還是它按設置就設置根本不需要經過任何主管機關的許可包含國家公園處在內"},{"start":8075.206,"end":8098.814,"text":"國家公園管理處是那個裡面的建物事實上是建築執照是由我們國家公園管理處來核發的那它上面的那個太陽能光墊它設施它是屬於它就用那個建築法規去申請這樣子所以就還是要經過你們許可嗎不是這個不是這個應該就不是我們這屬於雜項執照這個不需要我們經過許可這樣子"},{"start":8101.624,"end":8129.01,"text":"所以是經過其他主管機關許可然後你們看了他拿到了雜項許可之後所以你們也同意他可以設置那個概念就是符合所謂的第十款的規定你第十四條裡面的第十款其他必須經主管機關許可事項我們現在要講就是說你不管怎麼解釋第十四條基本上就是它原則上這些行為不是不能做但是必須經過國家公園管理處的同意"},{"start":8130.01,"end":8155.727,"text":"還有或者是經過其他許可其他主管機關許可之後那才可以做開發利用那我們現在的方向只是說未來就算是你們同意就算是環評同意無論如何就是不能夠設置地面型的光電板對那所以在法規上面訂定的更嚴格這有什麼不對這跟你們的現在的法律裡面你們就是沒有訂到這一塊啊"},{"start":8162.667,"end":8180.184,"text":"我再講一次 14條真的是圖館的部分因為你做地面型的 大型的這些光電都是要土地的這一塊是大型的我剛剛一直提到了說在13條上是有點可異因為13條它是遊客的行為"},{"start":8181.846,"end":8209.139,"text":"那我又回來了就剛剛大家一直在focus在於就是那建物的光電就在國家公園裡面的那個建築物屋頂的這個光電是不是還要經過我們這個這裡面的明定的他才可以做事實上是不需要的事實上是不需要的因為那個是屬於你現在屋頂也是自用的那個部分是用那個建築技術規則裡面的相關規定它是屬於護石設施就可以做太陽能光電"},{"start":8209.639,"end":8234.046,"text":"所以請教一下現在假設有業者要進行地面上面的光電板的設置那麼主管機關假設也同意了環評也同意了那國家公務員管理處是不是也會同意在這裡面主管機關就是我們啊我們當然就不會同意啊是但是如果說以後換了一個處長他同意了呢我們不要這樣有沒有違反現行法嗎不會違反現行法"},{"start":8238.424,"end":8266.01,"text":"假設這個土地管理機關同意了環評也同意了國家管理處的處長也同意了所以它就可以設置我們現在法律基本上之所以我們要這個嚴格的訂定當然就是以防萬一萬一有一個國家管理處的處長不像今天這個署長這樣子的一個堅持他有可能同意同意的話基本上不違法"},{"start":8267.836,"end":8290.397,"text":"如果真的在地面上設置光碟板是不違法因為法就不行做所以它不可能同意你告訴我哪裡法又不行做所以我就說我們對於第14條的解釋有非常大的不同我認為說署長您今天的解釋基本上是違反我們法律的條文的文藝解釋的"},{"start":8293.368,"end":8311.605,"text":"那個署長可能自己主管的法規還是要掌握的比較清楚一點要不然的話你會讓大家在那邊繞來繞去特別是第十款第十款的規定裡面你可能回去自己再看一下"},{"start":8312.987,"end":8334.239,"text":"我們接下來第四個案子是針對有關於地質法第五條條文的修正草案那一樣是在地質法裡面第五條裡面針對有關於在地質法裡面特殊地質的區域那是不是有禁止的必要那不曉得哪一個黨團的委員要先發言都沒有人要發言是不是"},{"start":8343.083,"end":8370.734,"text":"所以都沒有黨團要發言嗎好那第四個案子都沒有黨團要發現在是經濟部想發言是不是那請經濟部的次長主席 主委委員地質法依照他的立法的宗旨是來建立地質的調查制度跟資料還有基本資訊而他所有的條文裡面各個章節"},{"start":8371.923,"end":8391.516,"text":"比如說第一章的總則或是第二章是地質調查制度然後甚至是第三章的部分是地質資料的管理跟地質的研究它的立法宗旨是在這一邊至於主委委員所關心的相關的不管是再生能源或是光電"},{"start":8392.895,"end":8418.033,"text":"他的開發行為土地使用的管制或是環評的設立標準那我們認為說是不是回歸到環評法的施行細則及範圍的認定標準裡面來進行討論因為這跟地質法的制定的宗旨是不一樣的以上報告好 謝謝經濟部的意見那其他黨團的成員還有什麼要補充嗎好 來請翁委員"},{"start":8420.879,"end":8444.676,"text":"我想針對《地質法》第五條的修正案其實這條修正的目的跟其他的《國家公園法》或是《發展公共條例》《環境享用法》的這個宗旨都是一樣的我們希望能夠在法規裡面定定的清楚哪些區域未來就是不得設置地面型及水域型的太陽光電板"},{"start":8445.456,"end":8466.537,"text":"除非說它是比較小規模或是經過環境想評估的才可以做因為在我們現行法裡面的確沒有訂得很清楚而且給行政機關有太大的裁量空間不管是在訂定行政命令的部分或者是說在行使裁量同意的部分所以我們認為說其實從立法的角度來講我們訂得更明確"},{"start":8467.938,"end":8472.122,"text":"能夠讓行政機關有比較少的可能會濫用財糧權的這樣的一個情況那麼在這次的地質法的第5條的修正裡面其實他也是做了相當的清楚的一個修正除了原則上不得設置之外但是如果是小規模設置在1公頃面積在1公頃以內的話還是可以同意可以去設置"},{"start":8495.563,"end":8497.607,"text":"水域型或是地面型的太陽光電板"},{"start":8499.025,"end":8526.501,"text":"好 謝謝翁委員今天我們協商經過各個黨團跟我們的行政機關的代表大家都表達了相關的看法立場跟意見顯然我們針對今天所協商的四個案子都沒有辦法達成共識我們今天協商的會議到此結束本案就保留送院會處理 謝謝 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沒關係好還是要等還是要等 各個黨團人員還沒沒有 人家已經有處理了已經找到了對 部長也找到"},{"start":1465.953,"end":1486.849,"text":"好 我們協商會議開始那現在進行這個並案協商本院社會福利基於衛生環境委員會報告並案審查行政委函請審議委員林月琴等21人委員邱振軍等18人委員王玉敏等24人委員徐宇貞等18人委員林淑文等22人及委員劉建國等19人分別凝聚"},{"start":1487.907,"end":1515.384,"text":"全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等7案那委員王正旭等20人凝聚全民健康保險資料管理條例草案淨污惡毒案那現在介紹在場委員這個王正旭王委員陳昭芝陳委員林月琦林委員林淑雯林委員那現在出席的官員我們衛務部石崇良部長"},{"start":1517.437,"end":1544.343,"text":"陳亮宇署長還有社保室代理市長陳真惠還有我們法規會的參事陳信成謝謝教育部高教師吳志偉專門委員謝謝技職師鄭淑珍科長法務部王楠君參事今天都沒有讓你講到話國科會曹佑仁科長"},{"start":1546.189,"end":1550.392,"text":"好 謝謝蘇阿部陳明宏專門委員 謝謝個人資料保護委員委員會籌備處林郁佳組長好 謝謝"},{"start":1556.912,"end":1579.568,"text":"那本案提報院會並案審查報告保留條文為第19條及22條那其中22條業經上次協商會議通過今天會議審查第19條條文今天進行方式能請衛福部先做說明再請各位委員提出意見然後最後會眾協商結論請各黨人簽名好那請部長好謝謝"},{"start":1586.145,"end":1599.701,"text":"主席還有各位委員很謝謝召委今天特別在安排有關於全民健康保險這個資料管理條例的保留條文的協商那第19條主要是在對於"},{"start":1601.343,"end":1616.972,"text":"退出權也就是說當事人請求停止特定目的外利用但是在某些特殊的情形之下主管機關仍然可以得以做特定目的外利用"},{"start":1617.372,"end":1634.811,"text":"那因為這個會影響到那個民眾的這個權利的行使所以在這個條文上呢那麼很多的委員很關切應該要考量其真正的必要性緊急性然後要予以最大"},{"start":1635.732,"end":1657.375,"text":"要限縮那麼以最低的必要來行使這樣的這個限制那麼當事人停止這個就是他的停止特定目的外利用的這個無法無法去行使所以我們經過跟幾位委員討論之後那麼也"},{"start":1658.556,"end":1683.182,"text":"重新擬定了這個修正的文字那麼把它限縮在兩款那麼同時讓它更明確那包含第一款就是這個依照這個本法第十條第一項第三條規定這個是主管機關或保險人醫法有提供義務的那這個就沒有這個停止利用"},{"start":1684.282,"end":1702.707,"text":"第二個是在特殊情形下為了免除人民的生命身體跟財產上的急迫危險那才可以行使退出權的不行使所以我們把它做了線索同時為了讓因為這樣的"},{"start":1707.849,"end":1731.99,"text":"限制的這個停止特定目的外利用而做的這個做法那能夠公開透明那麼因此又把它限制限於政府機關才能夠申請這樣的做法同時要把這個使用的情形包含期限還有最後的運用情形要公開大眾所以"},{"start":1732.931,"end":1744.471,"text":"照這樣的一個設計 那這個很請各位委員支持 以上說明好 謝謝部長的說明來 那請問大家 各位委員有沒有其他意見好 陳昭志委員"},{"start":1746.76,"end":1767.849,"text":"謝謝署席還有部長的說明因為這部專法之所以要立法就是因為人民要求釋憲那釋憲結果實施過去的做法是有相當程度的這個違憲那過去主要的精神是人民應該對他自己的資料除了在目的內使用之外這目的外的使用應該他有一些自主權"},{"start":1768.849,"end":1798.044,"text":"那上次我们很在意的其实本来是要同意权那同意权我们也就是说如果他没有同意之前就当做他不同意但是我也知道说2300万你要去执行这个是有实务上的困难所以后来我们也是就是说妥协退让成为是退出权就是说你没有退出之前你都当做你同意这个部分就是我们觉得在其实在这个维系的精神下其实也是一个不得不的做法但是有关这个我们今天所谓的霸王条款"},{"start":1798.624,"end":1823.065,"text":"就是人民已经行使退出权之后但是政府机关还是要做这个所谓的这个目的外使用那必须有非常坚定坚强非常具体的一个理由所以之前所写的的确是非常的模糊啊以后不要随便再用那几个字了危害国家安全的这样的字眼因为这个是非常的不明确尤其是已经在这个"},{"start":1823.846,"end":1846.7,"text":"依照个人各自保护法第六条我想部长你也熟悉原则上那个病例医疗基因健康检查等是不得收集处理利用而被卫福部及健保署过去可以使用这些健保则是因为各自保护法第六条有一个但书已经开了一个例外让卫福部及健保署可以为了执行法定职务医疗的预防卫生预防等目的"},{"start":1847.02,"end":1864.19,"text":"可以進行處理收集利用因為本來我們認為是有這個但書存在結果健保署資料庫的管理條例的報完條款是要讓衛福部跟健保署這樣已經可以被例外可以去利用這些資料的機關再用另外一個例外"},{"start":1864.93,"end":1884.868,"text":"例外中再加个例外就一个报恩条款去把资料再转出去给别人使用所以让人民不得拒绝所以当初我们是非常执意这样的一点那当然经过沟通我想部长也跟我们党团沟通那现在就是我们希望不要用模糊的字眼不要用模糊的字眼那刚刚部长也有报告就是说"},{"start":1885.869,"end":1908.3,"text":"尤其是要具體續名使用目的的必要性那當時我也希望有個期限不是說一旦打開來了以後那就說就沒有一個限期嘛要有收回來的時間然後資料運用的情形我們也可以去了解可以去追蹤的情況下那我們大概就免予接受好 謝謝這請王振旭委員"},{"start":1914.368,"end":1939.458,"text":"謝謝主席主席快馬加一鞭希望能夠透過今天很完整的過程讓我們在全民健康保險資料庫管理條例整個修正可以能夠經過大家共同的認可而且同意相關的修正內容我想這是重要的一步因為當初之所以會被我們的縣大法官去判定"},{"start":1939.998,"end":1962.07,"text":"需要修正的部分我們透過這個方式終於全部把它處理到一個程度那相信所有委員的努力尤其是召職委員還有在場所有委員的努力大家都會很清楚的知道這部法案在修正的過程裡面大家所提出來的一些觀點也得到最後的認同"},{"start":1963.39,"end":1991.526,"text":"其實後面還有很多相關的法案還需要繼續努力的地方包括衛生福利的法案那個是更大的範圍不過這是一個好的一步我們期待未來在針對所有的衛生福利法案甚至包括健康檢查資料大數據的應用等等都能夠很依照我們的程序持續的來把這些變成第二個護國神山那這個部分就需要麻煩我們衛福部跟速發部還有經濟部共同"},{"start":1993.087,"end":2018.475,"text":"來持續完成 好 謝謝好 謝謝王知事委員的建議跟提醒再來請林淳委員好 我最後再重申一次就是說這或許是我們不是很滿意就是說第一款本來法律就有的規定那第二款就是說這個限於這個生命身體或財產上的急迫危險"},{"start":2019.655,"end":2035.304,"text":"那這樣子還是很抽象還是非常的抽象的範疇那其實我們仍然認為說應該再限縮一點所以要求他們第二項就是說第二款的狀況必須至少要公開要"},{"start":2036.584,"end":2064.827,"text":"給人家知道說你沒有辦法阻卻不被拿去使用的時候那誰把你拿去了他為什麼要拿去他用多久那這種狀況至少要讓我們大家都知道而且要公開讓大家都看到至少要讓我們知情這樣子啦那對啦 也是不是很滿意但是也是勉強接受啦好 謝謝那恭迎陳清威委員"},{"start":2066.679,"end":2095.33,"text":"好你要不要 沒有啦好謝謝好那如果各位有沒有其他其他行政單位有意見沒有好謝謝那我們就照這個建立的條文來黨團協商建立條文來通過那你也請衛福部提供第19條及22條協商通過條文之立法說明好現在宣告以下結論第一第22條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":2096.752,"end":2120.352,"text":"第二第19條照協商結果通過如附件那第三其餘均照審查會審查結果通過那各位再請教一下大家有意見沒有那就請各團團簽名好我要先簽了是是是"},{"start":2225.325,"end":2231.77,"text":"好 大家簽署完畢那我們今天的議程就進行完畢謝謝大家 感謝各位 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face271adad60e754c3b8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948b63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:08:56 - 09:10:33","影片長度":"00:01:37","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:08:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:10:33+08:00","duration":97,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.516593750000002,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.344718750000006,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.314718750000004,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.62471875000001,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.65409375,"end":67.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.61534375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.50409375000001,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.96159375,"end":97.02846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.49,"end":14.669,"text":"但是根據衛福部113年的最新死因統計癌症冷居我們國人的首位死因去年共有將近5萬5千人因癌症過世其中約八成集中在55歲以上的族群"},{"start":15.529,"end":43.644,"text":"這不是單一的疾病問題而是國家整體公共衛生體系的壓力目前癌症用藥價格昂貴在健保總額制度下常被排擠導致新藥給付的延拓病人等不到治療行政院雖然已經提出來癌症新藥的基金政策將編列40億到50億元建立暫時性支付的制度但此制度機制僅以行政命令為依據"},{"start":44.504,"end":66.507,"text":"缺乏法律授權跟永續性制度能否延續能存在疑慮因此本次修正第16條明定國家有責任籌措並支付癌症用藥的費用經費來源包括政府的預算補充跟捐贈基金的支息跟其他收入並授權主管機關訂定"},{"start":68.448,"end":96.933,"text":"經費運用及補助辦法這項修法的精神是要讓癌症新藥取得不再依賴行政彈性而是上升為國家的法定義務我要請各位委員支持這項修法讓國家以法律明定責任確保病人能公平及時的用到有效的新藥讓生命不再被預算跟程序所耽誤 謝謝好 謝謝林委員的提案說明接下來請蘇巧慧委員來做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"165337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610faceb778a313efa2bf8dfa47f864c5dfb45abff109ec81674948a58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:06:18 - 09:09:49","影片長度":"00:03:31","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:06:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:09:49+08:00","duration":211,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.48596875,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.44159375,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.85846875,"end":25.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.90034375,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.54971875,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.83159375,"end":39.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.923468750000005,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.75784375,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.81221875,"end":51.195968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.297218750000006,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.48221875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.09346875,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.37534375,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.05409375,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.69221875000001,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.42596875000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.06284375000001,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.73784375000001,"end":122.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.08159375,"end":167.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.34659375,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.89534375000002,"end":199.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.10096875000002,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":211.44096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":17.869,"text":"好 主席 在黨委員監禁列席的政府監事長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生民主進步黨黨團鑒於立法院第十一屆第二會席第十四次會議三讀通過的財政收支劃分法第十六條之一的修正之統籌分配稅款的分配方式"},{"start":18.55,"end":32.941,"text":"由於計算公司自有無法分配的統籌分配稅那麼這是普通統籌那根據我們相關部會的說明以及根據法律條文的解釋財化法第16條之一明文規定"},{"start":34.282,"end":61.921,"text":"这该比普通统筹要给地方的必须在年度开始前四个月由行政院直接核算之后交给各地方政府筹编各地方政府的预算现在已经是11月14号那么在这种情况之下不管未来我们的财政收支划分法如何修改纵使有行政院板对于整个财政收支做完整的配套规划送进本院审议"},{"start":64.142,"end":85.794,"text":"目前明年度這個普通統籌的345億因為現有的法令無法分配出去的事實我再強調一次接下來不論財政收支劃分法採用行政院的版本還是任何委員的提案的修正內容都不足以改變已經無法在年度開始前四個月送達給地方政府"},{"start":87.094,"end":113.14,"text":"目前各地方政府也將明年度的預算已經編列完畢無法進行這345億的接收跟分配因此民主進步黨在這裡提出負責任的提出不要讓這345億人民辛苦的稅金無法用在人民的身上更重要的這是屬於普通統籌就用在每個地方政府對人民的生活照顧上因此我們提出的暫行條例暫行條例因為"},{"start":115.82,"end":136.894,"text":"只要財政收支劃分法經過修正之後後年度或許就沒有這345億那這345億的內容包括給孕婦坐月子政府補助10萬給適用國民年金保險的這些被保險人國保年金月領不足8000的部分不管是哪一個公司涉算補足8000"},{"start":137.975,"end":155.502,"text":"以及对于劳退自提目前不普及对于1048万的劳工当中仅有750万的劳工因为有雇主依法必须提拨雇主应提的劳退6%但是自提的部分这将近750万的劳工 受雇劳工"},{"start":156.202,"end":179.696,"text":"只有不到兩成有自提因此也希望從這個款項當中雲芝部分的獎勵金鼓勵這748萬的勞工受僱勞工能夠自提1到6%那麼雖然金額有限但是我們也認為應該善用每一分稅金讓這明年度的345億的普通統籌可以真正用在人民的身上儘管如此我們也希望未來"},{"start":180.496,"end":201.583,"text":"能够由政府筹措正式的裁员来进行分配但是今天呢我们并没有以无裁员的情况之下违反宪法的规定违反财政局的规定提出这个方案再次强调一次这个暂行条例是在已有裁员的情况之下负责人的提出分配的规定那以上说明谢谢"},{"start":203.049,"end":211.173,"text":"好 谢谢总委员的说明现在请财政部庄部长回应党团提案内容并进行暂停"}]}},{"id":"165336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facedc586d74bd6582db8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948263c0903a4778e8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:05:51 - 09:08:41","影片長度":"00:02:50","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:05:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:08:41+08:00","duration":170,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.99659375,"end":161.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.04284375,"end":171.07596875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.951,"end":25.598,"text":"好謝謝主席主席還有各位同仁各位觀眾大家早針對於癌症防治法的修正我們關心的是國家如何讓癌症防治工作能夠穩定的運作如何確實來支援病友跟他的家庭我本身是一個癌症臨床的醫師在擔任立委之前也長期的投入癌症希望基金會的工作"},{"start":26.138,"end":52.794,"text":"今天希望和各位一起来思考如何能够加速癌症新药基金的运作健全审查还有争取多元的裁员来落实病友的权益虽然台湾拥有健保制度跟优秀的医疗水平但是癌症新药从取得许可证到纳入健保平均还是需要两年以上病友往往先需要自费的购药不仅造成省重的负担而且会错失了治疗的时效"},{"start":53.554,"end":82.874,"text":"政府自从2025年开始试行癌症新药暂时性的支付专款以公务预算来预注初中非常的良好但是还是有三个主要的问题第一个就是执行率的偏低今年虽然有50亿可是仅用到23.6亿我们希望能够尽速的来把它用到这个让病人的身上第二个就是审查的延档部分的这个药品从许可证核化到几乎剩下还需要800到2000天不等当然这是少数的部分"},{"start":83.374,"end":106.826,"text":"那裁員其實還是不穩資金僅靠行政預算來支應缺乏法院跟長期的這個監督的機制所以這樣的情形容易導致這個病有擴大措施這個最佳的治療時機因病治平醫師也難以根據國際指引來提供治療拉大我國跟國際間的存活的差異所以具體的建議包括第一個加速基金的審核跟執行"},{"start":107.966,"end":131.204,"text":"目前這個健保署應該公開審查跟給予的進度建立透明的追蹤平台定期來召開專案審查會議避免經費閒置第二個部分就是健全多元的裁員機制那研議相包括像菸酒的健康捐 碳稅等等希望能夠確定這個穩定的裁員確保不予健保的總額有排擠的作用"},{"start":131.744,"end":161.137,"text":"第三个就是推动长期的策略蓝图以2030年癌症标准化死亡率下降三分之一为目标规划几幅蓝图确保早期治疗可及时的介入那新药的这个基金在我国癌症防治的重要的里程碑之下这不仅是单纯的修法而是督促行政机关加速来实行健全制度保障病友那希望各位能够透过这些方式来保障我们癌友的权益"},{"start":167.113,"end":170.182,"text":"好 謝謝王委員的提案說明接下來請林月琴委員來做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"165335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610faced56322759269b1848ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948ffdbef6d71e002e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:03:35 - 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針對全民健康保險未給付之檢查醫療器材也應該一併納入第三 針對經濟弱勢的癌症病人給予適當的醫療費用補助目前雖然已經有了癌症心要暫時性的支付喔"},{"start":73.264,"end":101.972,"text":"這樣的制度但這對我們現在所屬的過渡性措施並非長遠之計所以為確保制度的穩定跟裁員能夠有來源的一個明確規定能有必要透過立法院加以規範確立我們建立的法源依據的一個長期支持體系最後我要提感謝這個召委今日排審癌症的防治法修正草案"},{"start":102.532,"end":128.399,"text":"社會各界對於癌症新藥多元基金呢已經是非常高度的關切跟支持也期盼所有的委員不分草野不分藍綠白我們大家共同來回應所有社會的期待跟病友還有他們的家屬的未來 以上好 謝謝羅定偉你的提案說明接下來請王振旭王委員"}]}},{"id":"165348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8dfad8744def12b2e72a0011d4bca9f9bff109ec81674948ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:26:19 - 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院长来 我们现在继续有关于全球人才的这个问题那我想说你们因为我们美国最近因为一些人才的"},{"start":256.311,"end":278.263,"text":"一些种种的因素所以全世界都在抢人才那中英院很好马上就提出了精英博士生快速入学的试行计划没错吧是的那时候我特别提出来你告诉我因为时间不够的关系所以说呢申请不如预期因为呢大概只有21个人申请录取呢也只有一半超出预期不是不如预期超出预期"},{"start":279.043,"end":301.48,"text":"上次的里面精英博士快速计划是的我们本来因为时间很短我们预期大概超过五个左右结果来了二十几个申请对二十一个录取人数一半嘛十一个嘛对不对然后接下来你们又是完全不到两个月时间你就开放第二波的申请到目前为止情况如何"},{"start":302.722,"end":317.289,"text":"好像 來沒有 好 我時間的關係非常有限因為時間已經太晚了那時候大部分的學生都已經拿到入學許可所以第二批就沒有人申請是的 所以說你們沒有任何時間的限制所以到目前為止沒有人申請嘛 對不對這是一個問題第二波 對"},{"start":320.911,"end":348.981,"text":"第一波有人申请第一波我就说21个人嘛录取一半11个人嘛那第二波你们没有时间的限制目前为止申请人数是零嘛这个讯息没有错这不是申请时间这不是毕业季节啊当然啊那你们干嘛是在这个部分我们现在只是要承接后面有关于人才的这个部分到底是如何然后接下来你们有我们会推出新的计划我们会推出新的计划除了想与博士生之外我们也推出一个5加5的计划叫做卓越人才计划"},{"start":349.261,"end":368.079,"text":"我知道你对人才非常的求才若渴但是呢数据来告诉我们中研院还是要面对很多我们在解决的问题你们也特别提到的国际研究生学程嘛TIGP的计划嘛对不对那录取的话非常多人来申请但是呢目前来说呢大概只分别申请到"},{"start":368.86,"end":389.303,"text":"录取率大概只有6%或5%嘛表示说非常严格嘛对不对对然后呢那个时候你们告诉我就说其实呢很多时候是因为教育部有一个总额管制的这个问题嘛是是报告员是的然后问题是你们每一次教育部给的这些金额是240个人哦但是你们录取的部分是没有"},{"start":390.456,"end":407.737,"text":"所以这不是教育部的问题是委员这个240人是上限但是因为我们每年要编列经费去所以是经费的问题是不是是就是这个经费需要逐年减好所以不是总额管制的问题因为上次我有问过你们告诉我可能是总额管制总额管制还给你240人你140人所以这是经费的问题吗"},{"start":408.217,"end":434.828,"text":"是 就是每年要編列經費來因應所以說呢就是沒有辦法達到這樣240人的話並不是因為你們沒有並不是中研院找不到適合的人而是因為也不是總額管制的問題而是來自於經費不足所以你們才沒有辦法有這麼多人不完全是是 還有怎麼樣當然這個申請人的quality也是一個考量假如真的好我們會想盡辦法會引進來所以可能就是沒有找到中研院要的人對"},{"start":436.248,"end":455.09,"text":"所以你们才是林轩误乱嘛所以我们要把这些问题全部一一来做澄清然后呢在这些过程当中呢我们也很希望因为我刚刚说的太多人目前为止因为美国有一些的管制所以全世界都在抢人所以我们就来看一下那这些之后呢到底有多少人继续留在台湾我们往下看"},{"start":455.931,"end":485.329,"text":"当然我完全同意人才是完全是流通的人才绝对是流通为世界各国所需要这是我们共同的一个标准但是呢我们还是要知道很多的人毕业之后呢留在台湾的比例是四成跟五成你们满意这个结果吗报告委员这个当然还可以再努力但是要跟委员解释是说有很多我们培育的人才他回到母国去现在都担任母国重要的职位那这个对于跟台湾的学术交流或者是甚至国际竞争来讲是非常有帮助的"},{"start":485.689,"end":504.649,"text":"是所以我才说人才的流通是世界共同的标准这是一项的原则就像我们在美国受了教育但是呢我们也会回台湾来贡献我们自己这是一致的但是呢我刚刚指出很多的一个例子当中不管是符合中研院要的人或是是我们留才的比率我觉得这个部分面对数字我们还是有很多的空间"},{"start":505.651,"end":519.949,"text":"主席再给我一分钟我还要问一个非常重要的国家生技园区的问题为什么因为我们政府花了200多亿107年成立我记得那时候是蔡英文总统为了要成立非常多的所谓的生技国家队特别"},{"start":520.49,"end":542.41,"text":"排除万难那时候有非常多的人包括立委包括居民等等之类好不容易成立了花了这么多钱然后呢中研院也是负责组则的一个单位但是呢我还是要提出来院长你知不知道整个园区的营运绩效到底是如何中研院掌管的四个其他都是卫福部跟经济部嘛你知道整个的营区的营运状况如何吗"},{"start":543.39,"end":564.646,"text":"我认为是非常好各部会比如说国科会的动模式中心卫福部的施药中心经济部的生技中心但是院长你知道吗立法委员要跟他们要所有的关键性的绩效指标要不到只有你们中研院的这个生医转移研究中心底下的创服育成中心给我知道其他我都要不到任何资料"},{"start":565.106,"end":585.484,"text":"因为委员要的可能是新创的部分我没有啊我只要大家里面因为我们大家都特别提到整个园区没有一个主政的一个机构然后大家都各做各的预算也都是各自编域完全没有一个这样的部分因为我们不是科学园区你对这样的成效绩效你满意吗院长"},{"start":587.148,"end":614.897,"text":"我们对我们自己的绩效满意是 但是它是一个联合会下面的一个部分你们负责在部分其他的部分里面有一个我们希望当初能够成立跨机关的营运协调组所以希望能够资讯共享希望能够来盘点整个的绩效这是整体的一个部分目前为止是各部管各部的或许要请教委员跟委员厘清的是委员想要了解是哪一部分的绩效可能是"},{"start":616.617,"end":637.283,"text":"好 那就給我一個聯合會裡面裡面聯合會包含這麼多的部分你國家生計的部分裡面光是開會過去沒有成立之前一年開四次會現在成立完之後呢從之前到現在只開了四場會然後呢我要個績效要不到然後你這個聯合會裡面到底各自如何包括你中研院四個機構當中你就給我一個"},{"start":638.283,"end":656.69,"text":"就是我刚刚所提到的所以说呢每个部分里面这也是会得到一个部分所以到底他整个蔡总统那时候要了这么多目前为止各司其事我完全看不出一个生计园区整体里面所带给我们一个所谓的生计国家队所展现出来的一个规模啊"},{"start":657.403,"end":677.714,"text":"我们有报告给委员这个规模我想我们的绩效是相当可观目前的50家厂商都进驻院长你跟我的认知完全不一样我告诉你我现在所拿到的绩效就只有你们生物科研究部份给我拿到的这是一个事实我没有办法替其他部会说我只能就那你中原院四个机构你也就给我一个啊"},{"start":678.254,"end":693.551,"text":"那为什么有四个机构呢四个下面的部分我现在目前拿到的也不过就是一个生医转医研究中心底下的创服育成中心给我资料其他三个中心并没有给我其他的是我们的研究的部分所以不能给绩效吗"},{"start":694.391,"end":714.64,"text":"研究部分績效不是用這個或許我們誤解委員要的意思我們以為委員要的意思是這個轉譯是這個記轉的績效我們以為是這個那其他是研究的績效那我們這個不是不能給只是我們沒有很誤會委員的意思然後呢"},{"start":715.18,"end":740.9,"text":"整个的园区当中所以你告诉我国科会卫生福利部跟经济部对不起我要不到任何的资料所以这个部分我只是认为一个部分由你们来做一个组轴应该有一个通盘性的大家能够跨部会一如当初所设立这个生技园区里面当中的一个组轴所以总要有一个主要的一个单位可以负责统筹跨部会目前为止所看到的就是各司其事这点院长你不能否认吧"},{"start":741.499,"end":758.221,"text":"我們確實是需要加強這個聯合會的功能但是在首先的功能之外要釐清說這個各部會或是大家進駐的目標是什麼因為現在這個各失其職因為大家目標各異"},{"start":759.498,"end":782.432,"text":"所以并不是说就是我刚刚所强调的你就是各部分的目标可以然后你有一个联合会有一个联合会就是希望能够统合跨领域跨市域的这样的部分没有达到这个目标完全不是因为统合的目的是营运所以营运的时候譬如说是院区环境的维护生态的保养那部分譬如说国动中心"},{"start":784.253,"end":804.833,"text":"院長我們扯太多了我只是告訴你200多億的國家生技園區大家所賦予非常期望的生技團隊到目前為止很顯然我們對話當中並沒有得到我們當初所預期的能夠有透過跨部會大家整合的方法透過聯合會的方法大家能夠共同把這個生技團隊能夠做大"},{"start":806.434,"end":830.437,"text":"目前为止就是各司其事以至于本席要的资料来说的话除了中研院其中一个部分给我资料之外其他的部分我都要不到所以我很希望能够跟一个单位要他就可以帮我把这些你们过去如何把国际国家圣经园区里面这个当初的目标的部分能够告诉我目前的绩效到底是如何我达不到这样的目标所以我今天在这个地方质询你是这个目的"},{"start":830.837,"end":859.846,"text":"那我想這個以後可能請委員向聯合會要不是向中研院要 這樣聯合會就有這個名義聯合會就是目前為止沒有一個主軸所以我才在這個地方 這個是放在你們中研院當初開始的時候就是這樣就是聯合會沒有一個主軸的單位嘛那這個部分我要去跟誰問啊那中研院當初是你們國家生技園區不是由中研院來主軸來做一個營運的這個最大的主要代表嗎"},{"start":860.93,"end":883.547,"text":"联合会是中文院现在是有三席是选出的主席那可能是我们误会这个委员的意思我们把它解释成委员只是对创服议程这一块那假如是委员针对其他的比如说卫福部主管的业务国会主管的业务我们也会去协调拿到委员想要的资料"},{"start":884.64,"end":892.852,"text":"這就是當初國家生計園區整個主軸的概念裡面最重要的當然你們要是要做這樣的一個處理那我們可能沒有了解委員的意思謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face4275382537b07438fa47f864c5dfb45abff109ec8167494892d0a82c07ca83cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:26:47 - 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與會的各部會首長是不是請主計長 陳主計長好 請主計長"},{"start":17.372,"end":44.149,"text":"委員好 署議長我想台金院上週二公布最新GDP預測5.94%比先前評估增加了差不多將近3個百分點那院長張建一表示今年出口實際情況比預估的多了非常多再加上行政院普發現金1萬元正式上路"},{"start":45.289,"end":57.783,"text":"讓民間消費對GDP貢獻再創造超過0.3%到0.4%估計能帶動今年經濟成長率有機會突破6%那我請問主計長你認為今年經濟成長率有沒有突破6%的可能"},{"start":66.777,"end":85.223,"text":"是 我們本來是初估差不多5但是因為它第三季我們本來是才估1.72它成長到7.64所以這個部分我們現在就是說應該是要做調整那我們大概在11月的部分11月底的時候有沒有辦法你認為有沒有辦法突破6%"},{"start":89.124,"end":93.245,"text":"應該是比較趨近我們的估計是5.5%以上5.5%以上主席長展望主計總數2026年經濟成長率一估值就是2.81%那我請問主席長預測明年經濟成長萎縮超過50%換句話說差不多"},{"start":113.251,"end":120.583,"text":"差不多50%而已那你認為目前衰退的船產業明年有沒有好轉的可能"},{"start":121.839,"end":149.746,"text":"因為傳產它並沒有全部衰退它只是它成長的比較少而已跟AI整個一個比起來它是成長的比較少但是因為你為什麼我們明年會比較才2.81那主要是因為前面的基期就比較高比較高所以這個部分明年的部分相對的就會比較低這是以往的一個趨勢就是這樣但是並不是說我們的狀況就是不好那你認為它依然還是都有投資都有在增加"},{"start":150.586,"end":179.358,"text":"那你認為那些船產業有沒有辦法脫離谷底有沒有辦法因為明年如果關稅它整個一個那個關稅的一個政策它整個透明整個明瞭以後那整個船廠的方面它這個方面它比較好能夠做因應而且我們也有做一個那個所謂特別預算的一個資源所以這個部分呢船廠這部分也可以得到很大的協助所以這個部分也應該是對於整個GDP會有影響"},{"start":179.918,"end":208.135,"text":"因為那些船產業幾乎可以說他們以目前整個狀況你沒有辦法跟鄰近國家包括韓國日本他們來競爭對不對因為我們第一個人家15%我們20%在疊加他們沒有疊加我們又疊加幾乎沒有競爭力所以說很多人現在這些傳統產業包括水五金包括這個有一些工具區等等"},{"start":210.777,"end":229.664,"text":"這個幾乎現在很多都失業就是無薪假等等我認為這個很嚴重但是我們經濟部的一些補助的措施都已經有整個那個補助當然是短暫的那你要是說以長期來看這些這個我們這個"},{"start":234.093,"end":263.22,"text":"整個關稅的疊加包括關稅比人家高根本一點競爭力都沒有那多少當然就會影響到傳產的惡化也會影響到我們整個經濟的成長以目前整個出口暢旺是電子產業已經到了面臨反轉向下的時刻所以說才會拖累整個經濟成長的預估你再看一看"},{"start":264.361,"end":281.902,"text":"并不是说拖累而是说它本身积极电高的必然现象所以这个部分以整个状况来看是稳定的在成长所以并没有说状况非常的不好那个楚记长因为从英国央行对科技股"},{"start":282.643,"end":308.372,"text":"破裂風險的提醒再到國際貨幣基金IMF對整個金融環境收緊的一個警示全球整個金融市場與科技圈的正圍繞著AI投資泡沫這個展開密集的討論那主席長經濟部長 拱部長 拱明星曾表示說他預期AI龍井"},{"start":309.672,"end":324.23,"text":"應可持續三到四年沒有AI泡沫的餘力那我請問處紀長針對工部長表示對AI泡沫與火的看法你是贊同還是保留或者是有不同的看法"},{"start":325.18,"end":352.545,"text":"一般現在如果說整個我們從獲利文件還有整個一個科技巨頭來做主導的一個狀況下它實際運用價值已經有提高還有它算力的需求所以它會持續它整個一個獲利還是會持續所以說主席長是樂觀看待就對了主席長你認為台灣在全球AI領域是站在什麼地位能夠足以讓工部長敢說出和國際"},{"start":353.965,"end":374.718,"text":"各調研機構不同的論調事實上我們的地位還是真的是算頂尖我覺得這個趨勢發展的趨勢整個是很好的一個趨勢所以說主席長還是非常非常的樂觀當然主席長今天的議題是經濟成長讓全民共享但是"},{"start":375.899,"end":401.484,"text":"所謂全民共享的背後要如何分配並創造出公平的一個共享模式恐怕是一大難題啦光是普發一萬元的這個政策我想朝野就對立沒有共識更不用說對政府提出縮短所得差距及改善相對貧窮化的政策"},{"start":402.557,"end":412.442,"text":"能夠有高度期待的共識主計長去年四月底主計總署公布家庭財富分配統計結果顯示110年時每戶的家庭平均財富是1638萬元"},{"start":419.662,"end":427.264,"text":"而前20%的家庭平均財富是5133萬元那後面的20%家庭平均財富只有77萬差距高達66.9倍那我請問主計長過了三年多你認為家戶的這些貧富差距應該是縮小還是更大"},{"start":446.906,"end":471.407,"text":"因為我們會利用所謂的移轉支出等於是說政府會做一些的社會福利還有租稅的一個措施來減短 來縮短這個整個的一個家庭所的 家戶所的一個的差短那目前來講當初因為我們110年度的那個家庭因為家庭的一個貧富的一個"},{"start":473.545,"end":500.075,"text":"數據它跟當初當初30年前它的是有差距的是它兩個調查的方式是不一樣所以不能用去做比較但是我們跟其他的相關的國外的比較我們的相關的數據還是也是不錯的我們如果我們是低於澳洲也低於英國 法國 日本和德國那這個本身顯示我們的一個財富分配是比較平均的"},{"start":501.155,"end":520.426,"text":"事實上中產階級消失是台灣社會當前一項嚴峻的議題主要的原因包括薪資停滯通膨壓力產業結構失衡以及財富分配不均等那我請問主席你認為透過政府政策能夠讓消失的中產階級重見光明嗎"},{"start":523.389,"end":542.168,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們中產階級並沒有消失整個一個它還是呈現成長的一個狀態所以這個部分我們本身尤其像中低收入第一級第二級的這個部分它成長也是更大它成長大於全體的一個成長"},{"start":543.744,"end":567.563,"text":"他只是說他的成長速度不如那個第五分會的那個那麼高但是他還是繼續成長所以這個部分我要跟委員說明了那個主席長因為面對AI時代的新工業革命產業結構恐怕又要大洗牌那我請問主席長政府能夠保證貧富差距能夠縮小改善還是依舊"},{"start":568.524,"end":587.707,"text":"只能如同儲求相對一般繼續上演AI世代貧富差距拉大的戲碼你認為呢事實上我們的社會支出從原來的4000多億到現在成長到現在的8000多億政府是盡力在做希望能夠縮短這整個的一個貧富差距"},{"start":588.087,"end":608.988,"text":"所以這個本身部分譬如說像薪資的一個調整薪資的透明化包括鼓勵那個相關的一個企業能夠加薪這部分種種的作為我們都是在提升相關的一個貧富的一個差距然後來刺激我們的經濟的一個成長"},{"start":609.949,"end":633.738,"text":"想要縮小貧富差距可以透過稅制改革增加社會福利支出提升教育機會以及改善就業以薪資結構等多種的政策和措施來實現那我請問這個主席長就以往政府推動這些政策措施的經驗你認為現階段政府有沒有突破困難度"},{"start":634.478,"end":650.414,"text":"的能力換句話說要推動這些政策包括財政部長都一樣政府就必須要克服這個既得利益的阻力雖然政策方針確定但是從政策執行的數十年"},{"start":652.316,"end":668.531,"text":"來發展結果能趨向極端貧富差距的走勢可以看出如果不是政策失靈不然就是政策取高合寡導致整個貧富差距不但沒有緩和甚至於還持續的惡化"},{"start":669.392,"end":686.779,"text":"那我請問包括財政部莊部長這要解決貧富差距的問題政府是不是已經面臨如同處求相對的這個境地部長你也上啊把這最後一題那簡短回答做說明啊跟委員報告對於有關所得差距的部分其實政府持續的努力第一個我們對於高所得高資產者"},{"start":699.008,"end":727.206,"text":"有關在稅制的部分去做合理的一個增加負擔那第二部分對於譬如說育兒家庭有家庭有身障或者有長照需要的話還有免稅有標準扣除在稅制的部分就減輕中低收入家庭的一個租稅負擔我想這個部分持續都在努力因為不要讓他持續這個持續的這個貧富差距越大越大我認為這個是很重要的那政府也透過移轉支出來協助 謝謝"},{"start":729.388,"end":730.429,"text":"謝謝林委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"}]}},{"id":"165340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face441380fe3eb5b53c8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:12:55 - 09:15:31","影片長度":"00:02:36","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:12:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:15:31+08:00","duration":156,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.44409375,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.548468750000005,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.58971875,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.83846875,"end":156.93471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.872,"end":24.515,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位官員還有以及立法院的同事癌症並非遠在天邊它可能發生在我們最親近的家人朋友還有一起奮鬥的夥伴身上我相信身邊許多人都有同樣的經驗因此我要特別感謝昭緯安排本次的修法其實我本人是後生會的副會長"},{"start":25.456,"end":47.419,"text":"在11月4日立法院後生會 很多官員也同參加了召開提升台灣癌症新藥可進行相關會議在會中呢 專家學者理事長們 並有團體以及朝野立委都有提出寶貴的建言來檢視台灣癌症治療還有新藥可進行的挑戰以及未來的方向"},{"start":48.14,"end":62.6,"text":"如何讓癌症新藥基金走向法治化制度化永續化是立法院跨黨派的高度共識從本次提案的委員也能夠看出這是人民所期盼而且朝野共同努力的目標"},{"start":63.861,"end":79.268,"text":"當然這條路上不只有立法委員在努力更要謝謝一路以來醫護專業團體並有家屬還有所有關心台灣醫療健康的夥伴們始終站在同一個陣線為改變而努力然而讓我們回望現況"},{"start":81.129,"end":95.157,"text":"40年這是癌症高居國人十大死因之首的時間他是全民必須共同面對的課題我們不能只是接受現狀而是要思考制度如何革新讓政策可以真正的永續"},{"start":96.258,"end":122.85,"text":"更令人憂心的是今年已經有47項新藥退出台灣市場明年更可能超過百種藥品選擇不再進入或撤出台灣市場目前暫行性的癌症新藥基金面臨三大挑戰第一是法源的基礎不足二是財務穩定性缺乏第三資訊的透明度還有病友參與的機制不足"},{"start":123.67,"end":147.505,"text":"面對賴清德總統提出2030年癌症死亡率下降三分之一的目標我們必須認清如果新藥沒有辦法及時穩定還有可負擔這個目標終將難以實現最後我也期盼衛福部長官這次的修法過程中能夠明確的回應國人到底衛福部的立場為何這才是至關重要還有人民最關心的核心問題 謝謝"},{"start":152.35,"end":155.434,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的提案說明接下來請陳昭志委員來代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明"}]}},{"id":"165339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facef533c8b396e4324d8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948ab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:10:39 - 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鼓勵民間參與癌症防治工作或相關研究且民間捐贈有關癌症預防篩檢之經費及捐贈癌症診斷及治療基金準用所得稅付減免的相關規定"},{"start":90.296,"end":114.031,"text":"第四本席提案中有設置基金為癌症防治基金與多數委員提案的癌症新藥基金並不相同我們認為補助的項目不僅應該有健保未給付的癌症新藥也應該補助相關的醫療服務如手術費用等此外這筆基金也應補助相關開發教育訓練學術研究及國際交流等"},{"start":114.651,"end":123.614,"text":"其目的是為了加速癌症新興科技的發展期待使更多病人受惠 以上為本席的提案很請各位委員支持指教 謝謝好 謝謝蘇委員的提案說明 接下來請陳清輝委員來做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"165343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face12865c543b55d05fe72a0011d4bca9f9bff109ec81674948b268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:15:42 - 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有請廖院長好 廖院長 請"},{"start":9.29,"end":36.09,"text":"廉委委員早廉委委員長早安本席今天早上拜讀這本業務報告對於中研院在基礎科學在精準醫療跟國際合作上獲得的成就本席表示肯定不過本席在貴院的研究議程上面發現說在與國家在經濟轉息的衝擊核心人才的競逐跟能源安全的韌性三大關鍵領域上面的需求或許有些落差"},{"start":36.79,"end":51.77,"text":"那我先從AI跟經濟開始講起尤其是說現在的AI正造成台灣的經濟M型化非科技業面臨就業的衝擊但我們報告中的AI應用案例是道場道教畫像研究跟金融科技"},{"start":52.43,"end":69.235,"text":"所以我就很想问院长说,我们中研院已经有一个所谓的AI推动办公室,那到底投入了多少研究资源具体分析AI对于传统产业服务业跟广大劳工所造成的结构性失业跟薪资停滞的问题呢?"},{"start":70.325,"end":92.111,"text":"首先我们必须强调说中医院做的是比较前端基础性的研究虽然AI的最重要目的是推广到百工百业但是我们是做前端要怎么样开发新的技术新的software让这些应用能够加速进行能够"},{"start":92.931,"end":121.371,"text":"马上接轨国际最先进的大型语言模型所以我们做的是这方面研究同时呢我们也想在大力推广AI在全方面各学科的研究因为要在产业界应用你一定要有坚实的基础那就是本院在AI推动办公室设立各种不同的计划包括"},{"start":122.432,"end":142.983,"text":"生命科学 自然数理科学甚至人文科学我们都引进AI的应用期待我们在应用方面的研究能够很快地从应用端扩展到实际的百工百业的应用"},{"start":144.164,"end":170.749,"text":"那因为说真的这个AI现在其实有关这个社会M型化严格讲起来是所谓全球化的结果对不起你的声音好像不太清楚我说这个所谓的这个产业M型化或经济结构M型化严格讲起来是全球化的结果但是AI无疑加速了很多尤其是说我们因为台湾在全世界算是相对来讲是先进的国家"},{"start":171.249,"end":195.327,"text":"所以我们的AI需求大增之后我们GDP的增长已经调上5.45%但是产业研究明确报告这个荣景会造成一个两极化的经济当通讯产业飙升到80%的时候非科技产业持续落后所以中研院如果说在这方面可以多加研究开始多加连结的话会对于整个我们国家会有更好更改善的一个荣景"},{"start":195.507,"end":221.866,"text":"是这我们非常同意这确实AI的发展会对社会造成这个M型化的一个后果那我们希望在这个发展的过程当中这个所得到的财富跟利益能够与全民共享那这方面我想我们人文组的很多学者在研究这方面包括有社会学的学者包括政治学经济学的学者应该这方面都多少有所琢磨"},{"start":222.466,"end":241.2,"text":"你講到人文學 政治學 經濟學學者那我也知道說我們中研院成立了所謂AI風險的研究小組那請問這個小組的任務範疇是不是只有僅次於所謂的De-Fake或假訊息之間那應該是相當廣泛的我們請這個小組的召集員來解釋"},{"start":244.644,"end":255.139,"text":"林委員我們這個風險小組基本上是對於全方面AI可能對社會造成的風險做問題的一個檢討所以Deepfake都在我們的討論的範圍"},{"start":260.006,"end":280.968,"text":"因為現在目前AI導致我剛剛提過兩極化社會也就是所謂的社會經濟的不平等還有產業兩極化這是所謂的結構性風險那這個結構性風險目前所有的先進國家都會遇到當中但是在研究議程當中我想請問就是說針對這個我剛剛還是提到的問題分析後者的預算跟人力比佔了多少呢"},{"start":282.51,"end":311.688,"text":"这个部分我们基本上是以议题导向那像这个部分我目前先集中在有关著作权的问题包括这个AI基本法的制定那有关这个比较是生成性的社会性的各种因素的这个分析呢我们会再纳入到考量然后同时呢我们也会邀集在这方面的专家学者以及跟我们院内所有的相关的所中心来共同合作"},{"start":312.088,"end":334.524,"text":"其实我很清楚知道说中原院其实不应该针对假讯息或者做出管理因为不管如何说不管AI基本法还是打仗能够顺利的成功的话那相对来讲我们还是对于假讯息因为AI的功效越来越强老实讲那句话叫做道高一尺魔高一丈但是我就很"},{"start":336.205,"end":357.138,"text":"我就很担心一件事就是说如果我们本身投入的资源跟人才是不够的那对于这个我们想要达到的目标可能就有一定程度的落差那这一点我想说这边请中研院针对AI这方面来讲我们的方向似乎没有错跟所有大型语言去做连结把百工百业变得更能够suitable for AI"},{"start":357.458,"end":380.934,"text":"这是好事但是我们也必须了解到说台湾的人基本上80%的经济来源或经济成长是在20%甚至更少的人上面这其实会造成一个极端不平衡的风险另外一个趁还有一点时间我想请问一下有关人才我们从今年开始面临所谓严峻的人才的断层"},{"start":382.375,"end":404.189,"text":"那學術界人才正被台積電NVIDIA跟一些高新的AI產業大量的吸納那報告中有把延攬卓越人才列為核心的願景這點我是認同的那可是我們國家人才真正斷層的危機是在30歲到50歲的中生代跟新生代的博士那這些都被產業以數倍的薪資在挖走所以我想請問院長"},{"start":404.969,"end":430.765,"text":"我们的人才双建政策为何是把资源放在60到63岁的资深研究员做二次长聘到70岁而不是把同样的资源拿来提升40岁中生代研究员的薪资去跟产业做正面竞逐呢事实上这是整个风气的改变我们事实上并没有投入资源在60到63岁只是提早督促他们做长期的规划"},{"start":431.385,"end":457.096,"text":"那一般人到60岁左右就开始踩刹车那我们现在是形塑一个新的风气让年轻人知道说你40岁开始就要准备60岁你怎么样提出二次长聘不是到了50岁你就开始踩刹车好那有关精英博士生计划这每个月提供最高五万块的补助这没有不好但是我个人认为是不够的"},{"start":457.236,"end":484.62,"text":"因为老师说我们会加买希望大院能够大力支持我们的计划那我想问一下这些金额如何吸引顶尖工程师来做实施竞争力呢因为这点来讲一个月五万对一般人来讲是多很多的可是对这些AI的精英来讲对这些科技精英来讲也可以讲起来没有不好但是远远不够这个五万是每一个学科一样的"},{"start":485.02,"end":513.459,"text":"那這個不同的學科還有不同的方式特別是AI資訊科學方面有不同的方式可以再往上加因為我也想問說這個計畫到目前為止有多少比例是來自於面臨到最高新誘惑的AI資訊或半導體領域呢在這個計畫裡面這個我沒有詳細資料報告委員如果是人文社會精英講的話那目前其實是以人文跟社會領域的研究者為則您說的是AI的話"},{"start":514.099,"end":538.386,"text":"其实我们现在在尤其是在印科中心他们有一个博士班的培育计划这个是专门针对这些特殊领域国家新兴领域大概比例大概多少这个多少人因为这些搞不好就是未来搞不好台湾能够再度突破的种子魏主任要不要补充一下你们的基因培育计划"},{"start":540.13,"end":565.812,"text":"我們的培育計畫是跟各個大學合作共同來培育共同出資然後共同來培育學生然後目前我們一開始有20個人那這個少死化的原因現在大概在4個人左右我想請問一下20個人的薪資是大概多少呢你們給他多少補助20個人薪資的話大概在4萬5到5萬還是那句話啦我知道我時間到了但是我還是那句話"},{"start":568.289,"end":593.966,"text":"我们的所有薪资都是照政府的制度我们需要编列预算所以很感谢委员的督促我们也希望大院能够在今年的会期当中全力支持我们的经费我们才能够持续提升我非常认同委员的讲法我们目前的薪资水准虽然才两年前才开始才提升但是"},{"start":594.626,"end":618.865,"text":"仍然是不够我们需要持续的往上走我希望我们中研院Academic Sinica是全世界有名的这个研究机构那我也希望说我们这个全世界有名的能够机构能够有一流的薪水才会有一流的人才那有一流的人才才会有一流的产出那我期待中研院这上面对于整个资源未来可以做微幅度的调整谢谢"},{"start":622.042,"end":627.621,"text":"好 謝謝林佩祥委員 請行政官員回座現在請"}]}},{"id":"165342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face6ae7ce863e9f2f0a8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec8167494881c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"09:18:14 - 09:21:02","影片長度":"00:02:48","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:18:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:21:02+08:00","duration":168,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.23784375,"end":168.19034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":27.465,"text":"跟我們的同仁 幾位同仁還有這些癌症病友然後積極來推動了他的正確名稱叫做這個台灣癌症新藥多元支持基金證明是這樣啦 證明是這樣但是我不曉得後來為什麼會有一個叫白衣癌症新藥多元基金這個不曉得是誰生出來的後來相關的媒體也用這樣做處理"},{"start":27.785,"end":40.65,"text":"我再次證明我們要推動叫做台灣癌症新藥多元支持基金他的預算絕對不會亞於百億啦不會亞於百億 這第一件事情那第二件事情我要在這邊特別感謝啦我們這個健保署這個時署長"},{"start":46.388,"end":68.829,"text":"在他的任內坦白講真的對這個癌症新藥對相關的癌症病友的積極的這樣的一個協助然後很多的期程縮短然後有更多元的這些新藥都可以來幫助這些癌症的病患我記得那個2022年到現在很短的時間內"},{"start":70.01,"end":95.663,"text":"收費將近有應該有三四千的這個癌友然後讓每個癌友幾乎可以減輕的這個平均的醫療費用一個人應該有將近一百多萬我想讓癌友可以看到這個曙光那現在感謝之前的石署長特別期望現在的石部長因為署長變部長之後那個power會更大"},{"start":96.343,"end":111.128,"text":"所以應該未來我們可能短短一兩年之內不只是3300的病患不只是三到四千的癌症病友可以收尾應該有更大的power更大的這個癌症病友都可以"},{"start":114.01,"end":129.904,"text":"來這個新藥的一個支持甚至減少更多這樣的一個醫療費用的支出那各位剛剛特別提到賴總統一直宣示 早已宣示就是希望這個2031年癌症的死亡率要降低到三分之一"},{"start":130.504,"end":150.58,"text":"所以讓這個癌症新藥可以法制化我想這是一個必須要走的一個步驟而且我們也必須要加快速度所以今天也特別感謝很多的委員都可以來這樣的一個提案共同要來把這件事情完成也讓我們的癌症病友可以看到這樣的曙光也讓我們的癌藥有用"},{"start":152.782,"end":166.487,"text":"然後看得到一定要用得到不要再錯失這個黃金治療的這樣的一個時機好簡單做這樣說明謝謝那我們接下來就來請衛福部時務部長就本日會議議程專題報告及討論事項並按"}]}},{"id":"165341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facee7a21842c5fb198c8ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:15:35 - 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謝謝陳昭志委員的提案說明那我的提案說明可能在這邊就結束"}]}},{"id":"165344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8b67a723be314bb85cb08f7d303ca8f4bff109ec8167494864a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:18:26 - 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部長我們今天要討論的是國軍的這個邊線筆可是我要想先請教的就是說我們剛剛這個專案報告裡面的第四頁有提到一年期的義務役的這個徵集的部分我有看到就是說這資料我在想應該是內政部議政司這邊來做提供的"},{"start":21.437,"end":36.653,"text":"那我有看到就是一年期義務役可徵集入營服役的這個人數呢從113年到116年的預判的這個徵集的這個人數我們可以看到說113年的這個預判人數是9127人114年是"},{"start":43.4,"end":70.436,"text":"一萬五千兩百零五人一直到一百一十六年的時候呢就會我們有預判是說會高達三萬五千零五十這數字的變化是因為比如說像一百一十六年跟一百一十五年其實數字就有一些蠻大的一個差距一下子跳升到三萬五千零五十那是因為那個時候所有的四個月的這個一五一都已經結束的意思嗎全部都改為應該是說這個大學"},{"start":73.257,"end":89.327,"text":"畢業的關係也就是說很多人在18歲的時候不會立即投入重軍就是EWE啦那應該都是等到大學畢業"},{"start":93.589,"end":110.948,"text":"我們113年開始然後對94年次之後的來進行這個增兵嘛那採取增兵制以後改採一年級的EWE那對這個114年次之後的話那預判他在"},{"start":112.349,"end":136.382,"text":"完成四年的大学之后每一年都有大学毕业生我是说你看这个第四页他有就是115年有19028我们预判是有这个可以征集到这些人116年的时候我们就预判有35050这个数字的这个落差116年应该是那个他94年是大学7月毕业"},{"start":136.822,"end":139.904,"text":"7月畢業的116年所以你們是從這個去預估說到時就會有大學畢業是說當年的畢業人數有高達三萬"},{"start":149.826,"end":177.885,"text":"5050人 他應該在上半年跟下半年在下半年應該會有一個人數的增加這個是不是請這個說明一下因為數字落差有一點大報告這些是議政司提供的這些人數那116年以後會穩定的每年大概有5萬到6萬人之間會到部隊來服役這個是議政司的因為116年只有7月畢業所以說只有3萬多人但是117年起"},{"start":179.606,"end":182.631,"text":"每年大概都是五萬平均就是五萬到六萬的人會進來部隊"},{"start":183.786,"end":208.978,"text":"那說明一下115年的19028人是如何估如何估出來這部分是怎麼回事委員好我志願是市長委員這數字是內政部給我們的那他主要是因為我們一年期的UE是從94年次以後才開始徵集所以115年的畢業生他基本上應該是屬於93年次的畢業生所以他那個時候他是還是屬於4個月的經濟訓練役所以我剛剛有提到是因為4個月的那個UE"},{"start":209.858,"end":223.064,"text":"那個結束了因為後來都需要扶一年的這個數字的落差嗎不然單單看這個表的話大家想說因為前一年跟後一年數字差的非常高所以他的這是來源是這樣嗎因為我是看到這數字請教這個"},{"start":228.707,"end":246.739,"text":"OK好那沒問題那市長回答的大概是跟我想像的是一樣的可是畢竟義務役的這個占邊線筆的這個比例其實是不高的其實是不高其實我們正正要來看的其實還是這個這個是志願役的這個部分那我們可以看到就是說從109年到113年我們邊線筆的這個數字變化其實會讓大家做優心的像軍官的這部分從103年的"},{"start":256.625,"end":284.777,"text":"百分之八十八點六八一直下降到一百一十三年的八十點八八那我在想會不會一百一十四年會比較好一點那事關的部分也是這可以說是年年在下降我們看一百零九年他是從百分之八十六點二一一直下降到一百一十三年的百分之七十七點九七那士兵的部分更是讓人擔心的有一百零九年的百分之九十二點五七"},{"start":285.237,"end":289.54,"text":"一直下降到113年的66.18%好那看看114年6月底為止呢也不過只有63.35%那看平均數的話整體平均數我們如果就算是加上這個151喔112年113年其實我們的這個邊線比都不到80%"},{"start":309.571,"end":331.1,"text":"尤其是士兵的這部分年年減少所以這部分是不是要怎麼樣來增加誘因讓家家願意來當志願役我剛才看了這個報告國防部是有想要做很多的改善比如說我們要有沒有五項的性質的調整如何促進流營益力"},{"start":332.521,"end":353.417,"text":"不適服的部分能不能減少我想大家都有想到這個問題可是這個數字的變化國防部不會擔心嘛那尤其是說未來我們還有很多精密的武器要進來我們空有武器可是呢卻沒有人操作操作人數不足或是維修人數不足像這個部分的話還有什麼可以來做的部分呢"},{"start":354.542,"end":374.776,"text":"跟委員報告那個114年的我們的人力的邊線統計到迄今來看的話士兵的整個邊線比應該是到78.6你是說因為我這邊拿到的數據是6月底63.35%所以到現在為止嗎現在11月了所以你們的數字是到什麼時候10月31號為止"},{"start":381.26,"end":384.908,"text":"到10月31號為止目前有到78點多了78.6所以我們整體的邊線比才會有79.2"},{"start":390.62,"end":420.1,"text":"所以现在我们现在的79.2就对了我们到目前为止的我们的整体的这个国军的变现比是79.2所以还是不到80%如果按照这个来讲的话我们先来看一下这个我有看到这个美军它有一个部队战备等级的这个评估的这个标准其实我们不到80%其实是落在他们的标准的C3那C3的话是"},{"start":421.741,"end":429.548,"text":"對他們來講其實就是這個整體的現有的兵力其實我們是處在資源有不足僅能執行部分任務"},{"start":431.416,"end":451.669,"text":"對這個部分的話我們其實是掉在C3耶我們不到我們只到這個邊緣是不是可以衝一下可以到C2的部分各位報告我想這個美軍的這個他的這樣的一個評估他是用人員裝備跟訓練有三大構面喔他來評估就是說他"},{"start":452.864,"end":471.193,"text":"一個單位要即將在一個特定的時間點去執行一個特定任務的一個整體綜合戰力的一個指標所以他大部分都應該是採公司作戰所以他要去部署去做一個作戰部署或海外派遣的時候的那個特定時間點他做一個"},{"start":471.909,"end":481.856,"text":"那我想我們在這裡的話我們當然是希望盡量能夠提升不過平時的時候我們會因應平時的土壤狀況跟危機處理來編成這個戰備應變跟環恐的專制部隊我們會來做一個"},{"start":489.841,"end":517.51,"text":"所謂的平衡編組啦以排擠為單位做一個平衡編組跟任務調排那重點當然是這一個評估當然是會以暫時那我們暫時的時候就會來實行編時跟擴編動員那如果一旦實施編時跟擴編動員的話我們的特別是常備部隊我們就要到達滿編的狀態來去進行這個暫時的這個任務的睡醒所以平時的任務睡醒我們是透過以一個"},{"start":519.05,"end":530.698,"text":"這個排擠單位來實施一個平衡的編組跟任務的調派那暫時的時候常備部隊進行編使動員之後還是要到達一個滿編的狀態去遂行他的暫時任務但這中間還要經過一個訓練然後讓他能夠快速的恢復戰力這樣"},{"start":538.935,"end":567.617,"text":"不過無可否認的就是說以現階段來講其實我們的國軍的邊線筆其實還有努力的空間還有很大努力的空間對不對那當然就是說我想我們現在大家都在今天會做這個報告當然也是大家都有對國軍有很大的期待那我想我們逐步的來提高這個邊線筆當然是我們的一個目標特別是我們現在進入到這個"},{"start":570.019,"end":590.64,"text":"義務役一年級增級的一個會逐步的有增加我們的戰力然後我們志願役的招募的成效也要不斷的提升然後讓我們的這個變性比不是以80%作為滿足而已我們還應該要再往上提升好 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請主席邀請陳主委"},{"start":12.403,"end":40.418,"text":"委員長 主委早安我們知道這個統籌災後的復原重建工作是我們工程會很重要的這個工作 業務工作項目那我們看到今年我們台灣就是從7月初的這個丹納斯颱風之後就是這個帶來的這個環流影響造成7月8號的這個豪大雨也造成了台南高雄很嚴重的這個淹水的災情"},{"start":41.338,"end":61.805,"text":"那7月28號又一場這個豪大雨造成了中南部包括嘉義嘉南地區很多房屋都受損也有很嚴重的一個淹水的災情那包括在9月23號的這個花蓮馬太安溪的淹澀湖溢流造成了下游的光復鄉跟鳳林鎮也是遭受到非常嚴重的"},{"start":62.305,"end":91.318,"text":"这样子的一个灾情那我们知道这连续的三应该是说三件这个灾情都是由我们工程会负责统筹灾后的一个复原的工作那我从新闻媒体报道也看到我们的陈主委都有到第一线去来这个在现场来统一调度关心那首先请教主委就是说在主委将亲自到这个灾区去"},{"start":91.918,"end":116.045,"text":"那在這幾次的這個救災包括這個整個現場的調度主委有發現到有什麼地方是之前沒有想到然後不足的地方委員的確以丹拉斯來講當然是雲嘉南馬太安縣政府在花蓮那都在偏鄉還有台東那比較"},{"start":119.202,"end":145.355,"text":"這個東部或南部的偏鄉比方說房屋我們沒有去看不知道有那麼多的老舊的房子是沒有那麼無法想像有那麼多老舊房子所以碰到一次大風吹掉那麼多而且很多弱勢這表示說的確我們的公共建設交通或什麼的確要講究均衡這是賴總統一直強調的均衡台灣所以我們才會發現是"},{"start":146.636,"end":170.131,"text":"是這樣另外就是公共建設比方說水利治水或者是一些提防的確有很多我們推動了治水計畫那麼多年了但是有些地方的確是還沒有去做到的地方政府還沒有提出或提出但是經費不夠還沒有安排到的"},{"start":170.911,"end":189.497,"text":"要做的的確有很多要做比方說花蓮的馬太安溪都知道馬太安溪河床很高光復性這邊很低但是你要那麼那麼量那麼多的沙子要紓進也要花很多時間提防要改善那這是這些災難是看到這個地方"},{"start":190.797,"end":208.123,"text":"沒有發生災難的應該有還有比方說前天的蘇澳那就是一個相關最容易淹水的地方下大雨所以要即刻來解決我是覺得我們台灣過去公共建設已經做得不錯了"},{"start":208.843,"end":223.897,"text":"但是仍然要加把勁把那些未完成的比較偏鄉或者是比較沒有做到的地方來加強不管是區域排不管是河川治理等等都需要投入很大的人力物力跟經費了"},{"start":225.091,"end":250.38,"text":"是那這個剛主委所講的就是說這個是未來我們需要再加強的一個建設的一個部分然後那當然我們也看到就是說在這幾次的一個重大的災情一開始我們也看到就是說在0708的這個雲嘉蘭的這個淹水災情的時候我們也看到因為剛開始就是這個電線桿倒了非常的多造成這個電力的這個就是"},{"start":251.3,"end":274.071,"text":"就是沒有這個電力的供應還有包括斷訊等等就是造成了資訊的一個混亂的狀況那在花蓮的部分我們也看到就是說這麼嚴重的一個淤泥的水災淹後就是水災過後的這個淤泥的淤積問題非常的嚴重那我們也要感謝這麼多的產值超人還有包括"},{"start":275.031,"end":299.174,"text":"這個志工就是可以說自動自發的去到災區來協助這個救災的工作那可是也看到了就是說一開始也沒有一個很統一的一個調度就是說人力調度或資源的分配調度等等我想這些應該都是我們在未來就是說如果再遭遇到這個災害的時候我們應該要去思考怎樣做好"},{"start":299.954,"end":324.23,"text":"應有的一個應變當然我們不希望有這個災情的發生可是就是說人家說天有不測風雲因為我們也不知道什麼時候會再有這樣子天然災害的一個發生所以我們應該就是說藉由這幾次的一個災害的一個就是到現場的一個救災跟發現不足的地方我們應該要建立一個SOP的一個救災程序"},{"start":325.211,"end":352.7,"text":"因為我們看到卓院長在10月9號的時候在聽取馬太安溪淹澀湖災後復原情形的報告的時候他也有就是明確的來指示就是說未來應該要建立一個更強化更完整的標準作業程序形成更加的團隊合作模式所以就這部分我不曉得說我們工程會有沒有開始就是去朝這個方向去建立一個SOP"},{"start":355.167,"end":366.582,"text":"謝謝委員 工程會本來扮演的就是災後復原跟重建但是有時候也已經是災害當中那搶災防災有時候也會也會參與那我們會累積這幾次的"},{"start":370.828,"end":388.505,"text":"這個防災跟這個災後重建的經驗那麼能夠把它整理出來那將來看看透過什麼方式有各單位來參佐比方說剛才所提到的每天光復車站兩三萬人到那邊他有時候他不知道要去做什麼所以你要給他工作所以"},{"start":389.085,"end":401.046,"text":"所以那個分配就變很重要那直接在火車站那一出火車站大門就分就很多的攤位馬上按照區域來分配或者是說某些區可能"},{"start":402.865,"end":425.602,"text":"區域的劃分要很清楚各種方式都讓我們學習了一些經驗包括相關的比方說這些廢棄物泥沙的去化它未必是要去化它可以用於重建比方說現在泥沙廢棄物那麼多可是將來堤防還要做還要做安置宅就是收容的"},{"start":425.942,"end":442.983,"text":"那這些都可以用所以應該部跟部會之間也要協調比方說經濟部跟環境部跟農會部跟內政部那有些不見得馬上要再走會把它去化掉可以當作未來重建使用這個都是我們一步一步主委應該是可以統籌的嘛"},{"start":444.604,"end":459.972,"text":"因為我有擔任這個馬太安溪的請請有一個匯報的執行秘書所以我們會協調各部會在執行預算的時候先考慮到是不是其他部會還有用的東西"},{"start":460.572,"end":479.075,"text":"是好那本期在這邊就是希望說我們工程會可以經由這幾次這個災害救災的一個經驗那思考未來如何提升跟強化政府在面對天然災害的時候的一個反應跟韌性讓在這個救災復原上都能夠更及時更精準"},{"start":479.916,"end":503.332,"text":"好那接下来我再请教一个问题就是说因为我们知道现在目前国内的这个产业因为面临的这个汇率的问题以及美国这个对等关税的一个问题所以也让本土的一个制造产业面临很大的一个困境那在去年就有一个新闻就是说公共工程中大公共工程不爱国货所以国内钢铁厂"},{"start":504.272,"end":529.002,"text":"這個教庫所以在這邊本席是不是請教主委就是說我們是不是可以就是說經由政府鼓勵這個公共工程優先採購國產的這個製品然後來就是擴大內需來提升我們就是讓這個產業的一個競爭力跟生存這樣子負責採購法的陳副主委跟你詳細說明"},{"start":533.007,"end":556.739,"text":"委員好 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麻煩請部長"},{"start":12.153,"end":35.71,"text":"部長早部長剛剛有特別委員特別有提到就是說這一次我們在救災的部分官兵救災值得加許那尤其也壓壞了車輛的部分我們也立即做了處理我想這個也讓救災的官兵其實沒有心理負擔雖然部長跟院長要承擔一些壓力不過我們也看到這一次在光復鄉跟宜蘭這個救災因為剛好提到這個部分"},{"start":39.753,"end":44.356,"text":"我們派出水路兩棲登陸戰車救災那這兩次救災的時候我們看到我們派出去的它抗流彈的這個外掛式裝甲防護板其實都出動了它既笨重又耗油我們為什麼在救災的時候沒有把它拆下或者是派沒有外掛裝甲的這樣的車型它的行動也比較靈活這是一個建議啦"},{"start":68.733,"end":71.675,"text":"這個部分是有海軍要不要來說明因為這個當初是我們是以全裝去做這個你就齋跟那個月邊跟那個展現時軍力不一樣我們做世界的調整這個是我們順帶提出來的"},{"start":91.271,"end":99.817,"text":"那現在今天我們討論邊線比的部分部長在今天的報告當中國防部有特別提到國軍不搬流營的標準是76%那我們還特別說明近兩年113跟114年流營率已經比往年還提升"},{"start":109.423,"end":114.208,"text":"那不市府的人數也比去年同期大幅減少可是我們可能可以看一下因為本期辦公室近日有接獲民眾的陳情他們有提到基層部隊為了達到國軍部班留營標準的壓力很多官士兵的不市府他們其實因為這個部分是個人意願比較不會受苛責"},{"start":132.705,"end":134.246,"text":"可是留營率就會對幹部產生壓力所以很多的部隊為了達到這個留營率跟退役堅強的人員去達成先辦留營後辦不市府的這樣的歪風"},{"start":149.275,"end":163.963,"text":"那其中大概就有一些共識跟代價比如說薪水照樣讓他臨或者給黑價或者以對外支援的方式長期不在營區的狀況甚至有晉升上街等等這樣子的一個"},{"start":166.544,"end":186.999,"text":"這樣子的一個共識所以這個部分我們碰到這樣的類似的狀況因為這個會造成國家損失而且也讓部隊管理會變成鬆弛因為其他人如果我快要借起退休退伍的那他看了大概也會也會很不適之味所以這有沒有防範的措施"},{"start":190.436,"end":205.205,"text":"委員好跟委員報告目前我們是還沒有獲得這樣的一個訊息但是我相信我們今天流盈利能夠如此大幅度的降低如果說沒有這樣因為我們會提出來表示有發生這樣的狀況其實之前就已經有發生過了就買回家"},{"start":207.586,"end":213.814,"text":"照顾豆浆店的这个案例那为什么最近还会接到这样的呈请如果没有办法立即很清楚的掌握状况我们请提供在近年就是可能近三年四年"},{"start":225.427,"end":240.419,"text":"近四年好了國軍辦理流營後又辦理不適服人員的在營狀況請提供點名部支援佐證戰鬥及戰鬥支援加急薪資封錄的這些相關資訊好不好那這些書面資料提供給我們以後再來做一些探討那因為既然有人陳情我想這個狀況是存在的"},{"start":247.725,"end":260.843,"text":"我想這個可能要去了解先不要說沒有發生這樣的事情那另外就是這兩年國軍的流營率在我們的報告裡面還有剛剛提到的就是說我們"},{"start":262.52,"end":269.184,"text":"不市府的人數減少流營率提升國防部分析的原因是因為提高了伙食費夜點費然後我們還有提升住用環境品質還有整建植物宿舍還有就是加薪因為你說植物宿舍啊環境品質的改善啊等等其實這過去就做了不是這今年或去年所以很大的一個變動大概就是加薪的部分"},{"start":290.877,"end":317.485,"text":"那加薪可能真的有一些有一些人會受到這樣的因素影響也許會留下來可是還有一個很大的因素是因為之前我們也通過修法就是要加薪三萬的這個部分有很多人還在等如果到年底都還沒有辦法還要釋憲我想有很多人就會退了因為包括軍事院校過去在招生的時候其實"},{"start":321.926,"end":340.085,"text":"成效其實並不好可是在今年其實也特別好所以我想加薪是一個有效的一個至少是一個因素當然他沒有辦法是100%可是這個部分我們也請國防部一定要慎重考量我們接下來談一下我們今年四月份我們這個"},{"start":342.888,"end":349.412,"text":"就是一致性的加薪跟我們四月份這個加薪為什麼會造成有一些不同的一個部分會引起一些可能沒有辦法達到我們效果因為剛剛部長也提到還有趙偉其實也特別都有提到這個可能也會造成一些負面的影響我們可以看到志願役勤務加級還有戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":367.631,"end":389.058,"text":"我們也看到了這些調整新的調整方案那當時國防部主要是說是少校以下軍官士官還有士兵是作戰部隊的主力要優先照顧我們基層的官兵可是現在問題來了外界不知道的是戰鬥家級其實只有到連級"},{"start":390.758,"end":406.013,"text":"那我們也接到很多不平的反應他們覺得過去國軍的薪資不論是本縫專業家籍主官家籍都是隨著年資還有階級逐步增加或者依他的專長專業身份給予一視同仁的家籍"},{"start":409.716,"end":416.986,"text":"可是現在的加薪方案卻把志願役官兵長久以來一視同仁的這個部分因為只要是志願役都是一萬元的這個志願役家籍現在把它改分成三個區塊而且越資深的給越少"},{"start":425.977,"end":428.08,"text":"這是一個不正常的現象我們所有看到像工人員也好或者其他的企業單位也好其實有哪一個家級今天是越資深技術越好學歷越高可是你的家級是越少的"},{"start":441.756,"end":451.24,"text":"國防部在調薪以後高階的志願役家級反而比低階少這樣子做是對的嗎因為今天在座也有很多都是上校少將中將都是這些階級我們認為他們做得很差嗎"},{"start":457.543,"end":460.185,"text":"可是他們是完全沒有得到這樣的加級那我們所有看到的我們就以聯合兵種營這個部分來舉例好了下轄的各排聯營為例我們看到這一次排長連長因為可以加薪所以還包括輪調到外島的時候還有外島加級"},{"start":478.78,"end":485.162,"text":"他們如果在這一段時間其實還有他們還舉了一個例子他們甚至如果可以加薪又可以外島加給其實他們還可以貸款買房可是等到你從外島任期滿了以後調回本島要等待升營長或擔任幕僚的時候你可能就必須要賣房賣車因為你這個薪水幾乎少了兩萬如果從外島輪調回來他少更多這個部分部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":508.408,"end":537.383,"text":"跟委員報告我想就如同我們國防部立場就是說我們會不斷的來檢討這個整個薪資待遇的結構那從一個整體規劃的一個角度來去檢討現在的薪資結構的一個合理性與否那不管是士官或軍官那當然也包括士兵等等那我想我們會來進一步的來不斷的來檢討因為各項的一個加級它的總列數量"},{"start":538.143,"end":555.673,"text":"非常的多那有些可以兼領有些是不能兼領那所以我們在討論這些的時候呢就會還是要總體的來做一個思考那委員的指教我們也會納入我們後續我們來考量各項的一個佳績"},{"start":556.693,"end":559.254,"text":"部長我們先看一個這個表格因為你剛剛提到的這個部分你們完全沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個改變因為剛剛提到的這個已經造成不公平的現象我們看這個表格他只解決人的問題"},{"start":571.638,"end":573.721,"text":"比如說像營聯級像陸軍這個部分其實他大概他的風險是一樣的可是你到像聯級的指揮職這個部分連長2到3年其實他可以領到的包括戰鬥家級的這些他大概可以領到8萬多塊"},{"start":589.022,"end":596.933,"text":"這個還沒有扣除掉他的軍保退府健保薪資所得稅還有伙食費等等因為你如果年資越高越資深的他這個會被扣的越多我們看到這兩個營級指揮職跟這個聯級指揮職他們"},{"start":604.184,"end":617.777,"text":"大概差都是八萬多塊他幾乎沒有差別所以像這樣子的一個狀況如果像這樣比如說幹部在軍中努力工作了十多年他升任營長他真的只剩下榮譽"},{"start":620.74,"end":626.127,"text":"他如果像這樣子他跟做兩三年大概連長大概領的薪資都一樣的時候他們回去對家人對太太也不知道怎麼交代所以我想一離開這個年級薪水立刻就會甚至至少至少都少了一萬二以上"},{"start":638.982,"end":646.148,"text":"所以我想這個是可能要去討論的人力我們在軍隊的人力運用其實最重要的就是長留久用如果像這樣的加薪方案以目前的加薪方案其實剝削感更高而且沒有辦法留人只要時間一到可能大家就離開了所以這個部分我們也希望透過今天大家除了在邊線比因為邊線比我們看到都是平均值"},{"start":665.683,"end":684.849,"text":"有很多的部隊你即使給他再多的戰鬥加急你可以調出來看他的邊線比非常低已經低到甚至有風險的疑慮那這個是為什麼你即使已經給他加急了可是他還因為一個人要做兩個甚至三個人的工作所以你給他加急這樣子的"},{"start":686.83,"end":689.593,"text":"幼嬰其實也不足以影響他們留下來所以這個我們還是希望可以整體的去考量而不是看基本的數字因為如果這個數字是可以參考的那就不會現在你招進來的多可是退出去的還更多因為像這一次幾乎高達四分之一的人數其實是寧願賠錢要退出去這是一個警訊 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院長還有印象嗎"},{"start":30.214,"end":58.808,"text":"有那時候院長答覆需要有更好的土壤更好的環境這個科研環境的創造才能夠創造人才那才能夠讓人才在無憂無慮的環境之下能夠發揮他們的創造力所以希望大家給予支持給予鼓勵跟國際一起來競爭我們要看到的是研究人員所實際的貢獻對社會對學術這樣子的一個方面的貢獻而不是單靠他成功"},{"start":59.708,"end":72.846,"text":"成就有了成名我們才肯跟他說跟他拍拍手啊所以他要得到諾貝爾獎在努力的過程當中我們要給予肯定給予支持給予鼓勵經費上最大的彈性"},{"start":74.045,"end":101.781,"text":"所以賴總統剛剛宣誓333諾貝爾計畫目標要在未來的30年讓台灣在物理、科學、醫學三大領域至少增加三位諾貝爾獎的得主請問院長賴清德總統在宣誓之前有沒有跟你討論過沒有沒有原來他也沒跟你討論我還以為只有衛福部會有這樣的問題"},{"start":103.919,"end":130.269,"text":"那我想未来上我还是希望你能够转达台湾学术说明一下我知道赖总统一直很关切诺贝尔奖但是没有具体谈到说几年几个这个在宣布前才口头跟我讲这样子但是我知道赖总统一直都很关切没关系我没有说他不关切但是我要"},{"start":131.229,"end":153.196,"text":"希望的是他應該要多跟你請益多跟你請教樹葉有專攻啊這個部分您畢竟是比較專長但是為什麼我需要他跟你請教因為我希望你能夠反映的是你應該要跟總統報告台灣學術上面臨的一些困境你要讓他知道困難點在哪"},{"start":154.286,"end":182.86,"text":"有目標我們當然不會只是說一昧的唱衰啦但是有目標是好的但是網友也會說30年後他都不知道在哪裡了我也不知道在哪裡了但是這個目標定定以後你要怎麼執行而不是只是喊喊口號所以他必須先了解中研院的困境學術的困境這可以認同嗎非常同意所以我們就像你說的4月10號你講的土壤環境怎麼具體來做"},{"start":184.98,"end":198.302,"text":"你觉得呢如果要你现在回复什么样的困境你要怎么跟他说我刚才已经回复过不过可以再讲一次第一个要有长期稳定的经费资源第二个要鼓励勇于尝试"},{"start":199.872,"end":222.881,"text":"什么叫勇于尝试不是说大家做过写个计划你照计划进行常常计划中会有改变所以就跟一般我们审查经费审查计划的精神很不一样第三个要容许失败这又更不一样了我们每次什么都没做到就会被某个单位来盯这种状况下大家就不会"},{"start":223.641,"end":239.727,"text":"不敢嘗試我懂嘛最後呢減少外界的干預我跟你講外界干預不只是政治也是社會也是經濟所有大家這個飯還沒煮好就常常掀鍋你看飯會不會熟預算的彈性支持啊"},{"start":240.527,"end":257.166,"text":"前線作戰背後不要有干擾又要搬屍回巢啊對不對那大膽的假設小心的求證嘛允許錯誤的發生嘛這個東西我們都知道但是我想執政者他有他的為難"},{"start":258.227,"end":279.321,"text":"但是你要告訴執政者 你要給予最大的這個部分的支持不要說你在前面作戰 那就我們歷史就有演變出前線的將軍 後面整個政治的紛亂然後做出了不對的決策 要求班師回朝這個部分對於整個實際的研究上 都會有很大的很難以呈現"},{"start":280.302,"end":308.549,"text":"所以KPI要如何呈現這部分我也希望說你要有具體的方向讓他們能夠當然你說犯錯嘛或者是包容嘛他要有多少的KPI你要訂定嘛而不是一次犯錯怎麼樣就給你們這個計畫整個都砍掉了胎死腹中這部分上KPI要怎麼樣去做到我覺得這個部分你可以去大膽的去擬定這個KPI讓現在的執政者讓現在的總統他們知道啊"},{"start":309.309,"end":326.739,"text":"我觉得这个部分你可以作为整个实验团队里面我想这个总统关系的大方向这个细节到这部分这恐怕不是细节你来定嘛是的但你要来建议嘛对不对那第二个中研院的经费对分配多根据当前的政策热点"},{"start":328.563,"end":355.954,"text":"包括能源量子科技等技術均積極的展現投入不過對於生醫產業的規劃跟資源分配也同樣值得關注尤其在總統府現在的健康台灣委員會提出的生醫產業要成為第二個護國神山政策的一個目標之下中研院的角色就越來越重要所以中研院在生醫方面的一個研究角色資源投入也應該進一步的被檢視針對這一點"},{"start":358.069,"end":370.774,"text":"院長有沒有說明一下我們院裡面的經費95%以上都是所謂bottom up就是所有的研究人員自己去發想"},{"start":372.014,"end":400.268,"text":"那我们院方只是鼓励朝哪方向投入那所有三大学组的经费投入事实上是相当均匀的虽然不是完全一致但是我想生医领域的投入一向是我们院里面的重中之重这个过去几十年来都是如此未来也是如此我想目前可以大概说明一下中医院就生医研发的规划是什么吗投入多少资源"},{"start":402.318,"end":425.416,"text":"我想这个粗略来讲大概是说资源三分之一因为我们三大学组约是三分之一我想甚至可以说三分之一强就你所知道有没有跨足精准医疗那当然有啊那是我们主要的研究领域之一啊刚才这个我讲的TPMI台湾这个人体生物资料库"},{"start":425.956,"end":454.178,"text":"還有各種基礎研究我們的目的都是在做精準醫療都很關心這個精準醫療跟生醫材料的這些新興領域所以這個部分上我們會持續追蹤也希望說院長能夠大力的支持我們也希望大院能夠大力支持如果有這樣子需要我們的地方當然我們也願意來支持第二個我要跟簡單的就教就是333計畫有一個友善的一個研究環境"},{"start":454.938,"end":476.437,"text":"要跟院長討論的是可能有另外一個不友善的一個研究環境的事情為延攬更多的優秀人才我們推動了二次長聘鼓勵60歲到63歲戒退研究人員投入長期的一個研究計畫當中可延聘到70歲我肯定中研院留任頂尖人才的一個決心支持"},{"start":477.037,"end":498.014,"text":"但是我也要擔憂我一定要擔憂擔憂這個政策帶來世代的一個排擠效應因為根據業務報告裡面截至114年10月底中央公務預算的底下有研究人員805名博士後研究人員426名請問院長二次延聘有沒有核定名額一次延聘至70歲後請問相關審查的標準為何"},{"start":500.543,"end":522.101,"text":"所谓二次长聘就是我们希望他能够在60岁左右提出如何再创学术高峰我们并没有投入更多的资源而是能够去刺激这些研究人员所有的研究人员能够及早提出二次学术高峰的规划"},{"start":523.352,"end":548.4,"text":"是叫他早点规划那你只要规划好我一次给你延聘到70岁否则的话你一年一年来所以资源并没有增加我简单讲我们支持这样子的一个延聘计划但是他希望要有一个审核标准而不是说任何人都轻易的能够达成那当然不是所以我们讲的是二次长聘为什么讲二次长聘跟一次长聘都一样大家都知道说长聘在中文医院是非常困难的"},{"start":549.14,"end":571.478,"text":"那这个因为很困难也不是说套个公式你就可以达到达到这个这个标准那所有东西都是靠所有的同才研究员心中一把尺做这个判断那同样在二次长聘我们也希望用为什么会带到这样的一个想法就是说最主要是不要压缩到年轻的学者那倒不会这个我要提醒啊"},{"start":571.818,"end":591.746,"text":"正好是相反我們希望說年輕學者到40歲50歲就開始有刺激要開始計劃60歲的時候他怎麼樣提出這個二次長聘那院長最後一個議題我在勞動權益上這個進展這個過程呢我想我是非常關切的那近幾年我想"},{"start":592.566,"end":620.592,"text":"我們面對著勞動權益的一個逐漸提升跟關心我認為中文院在研究卓越之外對於勞動權益的一個法規遵循還是要有所標竿所以在這個部分上我也要再一次的提到因為我來自基層我很關心勞動權益的一個議題去年在審查預算的時候我就特別提出政治所的徵裁有違法的問題違反了就業服務法希望中文院要注意你還記得這個案子嗎"},{"start":621.432,"end":646.533,"text":"是的那当时我也建议院方应该要全部盘点征才的资讯跟屁用的制度确认是否有违反当时你也回应我人事单位人力有限需要一点时间盘整但是我要问的是说现在我理解上说实际操作有一些压力但是问题已经浮现我希望能够作为你们改善工作的优先事项"},{"start":647.605,"end":671.742,"text":"您可以同意嗎是的我想委員是有特殊的案例需要有 當然有昨天我去翻閱中原院的人才招募發現工作福利寫職缺適用勞動基準法寫週休二日國定假日適用勞基法這算福利這是最低的標準吧怎麼會是額外的福利"},{"start":673.302,"end":675.832,"text":"好 第二個承攬勞務的這個人員心之險 免疫"},{"start":680.231,"end":708.016,"text":"这样的表述是违反了就业服务法第五条先跟委员说明一下就是经过委员的提醒其实我们人事室的部分我们有定期在所中心的部分告诉他们说基本上你的劳动的相关的条件的部分都比较符合劳动协议法跟就业服务法的相关规定那委员您刚才提到的那一个案子的部分它的确是一个劳务承揽的部分那因为劳务承揽的部分它应该是不适用我们就业服务法里面有关于那个未到4万薪资的部分揭示的部分"},{"start":708.416,"end":736.093,"text":"那可能就是就我们网页上面的部分它可能在劳务承担部分它没有说明得非常清楚所以这个部分我们后续会请所中心如果你是属于劳务承担性质的话这个部分我们会希望它在所有的相关职务说明部分是说明清楚我希望中文院以最高学术机关的一个格局跟标准去呈现展现对于劳动法规的一个谨慎态度那也请中文院重新的检视所有的公告内容并确定"},{"start":737.313,"end":755.924,"text":"這個屬於服務勞動合乎規定審查的一個機制讓院內跟工作外的整個真真切切都可以成為學術最重要的一個場域所展現出來的一個格局謝謝委員的提醒那這個案子的重點是他不是用勞基法因為他是勞務承攬因為他是那個洗魚缸的就先跟委員澄清說這個"},{"start":756.744,"end":786.504,"text":"有没有违法违规是其一有没有观感不佳是其二我还是希望说在这个部分上能够呈现出我们有注意到说各所中心对于不是牢记法的它没有明确标示所以我们接下来重点会去宣导说在适用牢记法以及非适用牢记法的成蓝人员我们要做明确标示十秒我要跟你讲就是从之前的政治所所发生的一个议题到我会长期的去关注这些议题让你们知道其实有立法委员很关切这个东西好吗"},{"start":787.345,"end":788.026,"text":"加油謝謝委員謝謝羅廷維委員"}]}},{"id":"165372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face991ae0994e90540563fe2012470c7542999b3dda7382768086cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:02:33 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主委過去工程會可能是一個比較不受到大家重視的一個單位甚至前幾年都還有提出那種聲音說要裁撤工程會"},{"start":27.967,"end":53.241,"text":"但是剛好這幾年台灣發生一連串的極端汽油的災害我有特別看到凸顯出工程會的重要性看看我們丹利斯颱風還有728豪雨的重建特別條例其實中央主管機關救災的主管機關重建特別條例的主管機關都是我們工程會"},{"start":54.403,"end":68.804,"text":"所以可見在這幾次的災後重建最重要的單位指揮就是我們工程會那我也感謝我們陳主委在台南的丹納斯颱風"},{"start":70.871,"end":87.29,"text":"救災的時候成立的前進指揮所主委你是擔任指揮官那開始讓整個救災那個效率啦快速的一個提升只不過有一點可惜啦我曾經在總支局的時候也跟行政院提過這一點"},{"start":89.273,"end":113.07,"text":"7月7號台南那個成災當然是颱風但7月30號才成立了前進指揮所那主委才進駐成為指揮官等於已經經過了三個禮拜所以下次如果萬一有發生不幸的這種災害其實應變的效率非常重要"},{"start":114.346,"end":141.83,"text":"那其中我們可以看到不只是台南的丹納斯風災零四零三的地震還有這次花蓮艷澀湖災後重建工程會都是主管機關所以可見作為災後復建的統籌單位我也在這裡也希望我們工程會同仁各位可以了解到其實如果不幸的遇到這種傷害我們工程會其實責任是非常重大"},{"start":143.257,"end":166.554,"text":"那我也提一點給主委當參考當特別條例裡面它有規範很多種其中有一種第九條它有特別提到主管機關應該要設立資訊網站專區這個也是我在質詢莊榮泰院長的時候我記得主委應該有注意到我也要求行政院當資訊那麼混亂"},{"start":167.854,"end":188.726,"text":"如果說很多災民或者是相關協助的民間單位或者在救災的需求或重建的需求那我們去哪裡找相關的資訊整合啦所以需要一個官網其實特別條例裡面有寫得很清楚第九條規範主管機關要設立一個官網"},{"start":190.27,"end":218.094,"text":"那應該就是工程會那工程會有沒有設立啊我舉丹納斯颱風給主委當參考我們去Google一下我設一個我Google寫丹納斯專區啦又跑出了這幾個網站主委你可以一眼看出我們工程會的官網是哪一個嗎第一個你看經濟部的內政部的台南市政府的你搜尋出來的結果啊都看得很清楚"},{"start":220.512,"end":229.227,"text":"你很難直接一眼就找到我們工程會設立的那個所謂官網其實這個官網應該才是最重要的你寫一個PCC"},{"start":235.259,"end":262.478,"text":"這個其實一般人你沒有點進去不會知道這個就是我們工程會統籌設立的一個官方網站我提這一點也給我們相關負責的工程會的主管你要了解到在迫切需要資訊以及資訊混亂的時候你要寫清楚一點讓大家可以一眼就看到這個是工程會的"},{"start":263.158,"end":290.325,"text":"那我可以進去裡面找到我要的資訊那除了這樣的以外啊那網站的內容是否有整合就一般大家需要的不管你是協助救災的或者是災民的需求等等我給主委當參考主委你大概有看到了另外前一陣子我們主委我們工程會有表揚協助救災的290家廠商"},{"start":292.814,"end":321.785,"text":"並且納入了採購CSR指標我覺得這個非常好因為這一次我們有幾個過去從來沒有的創新的做法第一次有使用政府煤油廠商來進廠修繕這樣的一個做法甚至暫停了公共工程讓工班進入到災區未來這次有協助的而且得獎的"},{"start":323.164,"end":334.613,"text":"這個其實某種程度他們配合度也高我們也感謝他們所以你工程會才頒獎對不對這個其實就是我們的救災國家隊像台南這次的災區那麼大"},{"start":339.778,"end":358.663,"text":"我們也需要說 讓災民了解當我有需求的時候 我去哪裡找到這些好的廠商因為那個時候 第一個欠缺工 欠缺人所以我們這290家廠商 是不是可以再分類讓有需求的 因為有些災區的房子 其實還沒弄好"},{"start":359.979,"end":375.246,"text":"剛剛也有幾位委員來詢問主委其實還沒有蓋好的災區的房子有很多種有的是災民他沒有經濟能力有的是根本沒有住人他不一定有意願要重建或者是修繕"},{"start":376.947,"end":400.988,"text":"或者是有些有產權的問題等等 我不知道但是第一時間要公告這些廠商優良廠商的白名單是不是也給主委當參考主委對這些對這樣的一個做法我們再次的感謝工程會在台南這次風災的一個協助主委有意見嗎"},{"start":402.965,"end":426.471,"text":"謝謝委員的指導關於那個網站更清楚一點我們會來立即來改善那這次很謝謝那麼多廠商親手而且很多都是大廠商那我們就感謝他們能夠放下手頭的工作來進行修繕所以我們這個挑了200指示價有分特優跟優特優跟優他"},{"start":427.691,"end":452.963,"text":"我們這個感謝狀它將來可以作為它城南公共工程去投標的時候如果是評選的標評選的這個方式那麼可以在企業社會責任CSA這邊可以額外再加分那這個加分就很重要謝謝委員一直這個來協助公共懲惡委員來針對台南甲乙雲林等這個災後重建工作"},{"start":453.82,"end":473.787,"text":"好 謝謝主委最後時間我再跟主委討論一個事情就是我們所謂的綠色採購因為總統府幾天前總統府在半年前有召開第四次國家汽油變遷的委員會他有提到2030年我們的綠色採購目標要提升到10%"},{"start":478.416,"end":492.648,"text":"裡面也有委員提出我們現在是不是就應該要訂出2030年公共工程的一些綠色採購的項目和標準例如有綠色鋼鐵 綠色水泥因為2030年綠色採購達到10%目前我請環境部算給我這環境部計算給我的數字我們的綠色採購到去年只有3.4%"},{"start":502.946,"end":521.971,"text":"只有3.4%那你2030年要達到10%那可見距離目標大概還有還有幾倍的路程要努力但是我看到我們現在訂的環境部本身他訂的所謂綠色採購他又有很多項目其實是非指定採購"},{"start":523.547,"end":542.58,"text":"比如減碳建材如果你公共工程減碳建材不是一定要採購那你如何達成綠色採購目標這樣是不是有矛盾那是不是這樣的所謂的一定要指定要採購的建材那這個那這個表是不是這種做法是不是要做檢討來請主委一下"},{"start":544.864,"end":562.267,"text":"那報告委員因為利受採購的主管機關是環境部不過在政府採購法裡面有相關的條文就是說如果你採購機關為了因應一些環境保護措施減碳節能等等等你還是可以這個設立一些規範"},{"start":563.428,"end":592.561,"text":"作為你採購的這樣的你講得很好 就會設立一些規範嘛主委 那個主席再給我但是呢有時候這個採購企業範本並不是剛性的所以我們現在已經預告政府採購法政府採購法如果修正通過將來我們工程會就訂定剛性的企業範本那這個採購機關呢他就可以因應他所要求的不管是利受採購來達到這個環境保護或相關的目的"},{"start":592.901,"end":618.063,"text":"我們再看一下英國的做法我舉個例子給你參考英國就是說你如果政府標案金額達到500萬英鎊那麼你想要來參與公共工程的廠商你就必須要承諾減碳目標而且你要提出那你標下這個工程你如何達到減碳的計畫所以這個也可以做為未來我們在做相關公共工程招標的一個規範的一個參考好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席謝謝 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請陳主委請陳主委委員長 主委長有幾個問題來就教主委這個第一個我想過去媒體也都有報導就是有關這個我們在"},{"start":21.411,"end":49.326,"text":"台灣很多個城市其實大部分都是這樣從路燈到號誌的這個施工啊當然這個施工路燈在內政部嘛那號誌可能在交通單位無論是中央政府或地方政府那我們會發現這個路燈啊施工的安施工有SOP但施工的安全譬如說我們常常會有這個"},{"start":50.492,"end":78.651,"text":"螺絲釘大顆的螺絲釘為了鎖住那個燈路燈跟鎖住那個交通號誌所以那個螺絲釘都非常的尖非常的高那也因為這個螺絲釘所以你看這個包括車禍跌倒或者車禍去撞到這個螺絲釘導致受傷或者甚至死亡這個時有在媒體上報導那也因為這樣子"},{"start":80.792,"end":109.169,"text":"我們行政院的公共政策參與平台連署也達標啦就是說螺絲釘突出結果這個造成這些生命的危害那所以呢這個本席啊覺得這個除了達標他要求拋花內政部在施作的時候要怎麼去注意這個其實公共工程會應該有一個整體性的這個安全防護的準則來要求"},{"start":110.749,"end":125.576,"text":"這個內政部或者交通部或者地方政府在施作相關路旁馬路旁邊的這個號誌或者這個照明設備都應該有這樣的一個標準 諸葦你的看法呢"},{"start":127.315,"end":154.536,"text":"委員的意見非常好而且也是值得重視如果是屬於道路的施工規範我們會找內政部來討論是否在內政部相關的施工規範裡面能夠修訂或增訂加強比方說要螺帽等等這樣的一個或者是多高不能"},{"start":158.319,"end":176.92,"text":"這個暴露出來之類的那我們會找內政部就他的施工規範是不是有修正的地方好 所以主委把內政部跟交通部找來在施工的規範當中有關安全的防護把它做一個"},{"start":179.344,"end":203.971,"text":"綠定啦同時綠定好之後也要求各級政府從市政府到鄉鎮公所如果要做這樣的施工都必須符合這個規範所以這個應該可以施工規範訂定之後他就搬行而且所有的相關的這個是還要督促他們來做啦不是搬一個規範大家也要督促那主委這個我大概要給你多少多久的時間你可以來把這個規範做好"},{"start":207.159,"end":221.726,"text":"這個要跟內政部討論那是不是這樣好不好我先給你三個月的時間那如果到時候三個月後還沒辦法做好那請公關成員再告訴本席到底是內政部交通部不配合還是其他有什麼問題這樣"},{"start":222.366,"end":241.194,"text":"好我們就是剛才委員指示的三個月來找相關的部會來整個討論清楚是不是除了施工規範之外還有其他我們剛才沒有考慮到的要修正的安全最重要啦特別是這個都過去那麼多案例都因為"},{"start":242.174,"end":269.402,"text":"突出的這個螺絲釘導致死亡或者是受傷我覺得這個是確保人民安全生命財產安全很重要的所以主委再拜託你那三個月之後如果未成那請工程會也告訴本席到底是什麼單位未成這個本席一定會嚴加監督這個到底是誰在拖這個事情好那另外這個剛剛大家也去特別去注意到"},{"start":272.946,"end":275.997,"text":"這個公共城這個安全就所謂死亡的這個人數"},{"start":278.324,"end":305.137,"text":"我其實看一下過去這幾年的資料我們的確這個人數的確有下降這個沒有問題但下降到現在大概這兩年都已經這兩年的人數都會停留在一個位階上然後再要再降看起來好像有一點停頓那這一樣跟剛剛上一個問題一樣都是安全的問題"},{"start":306.345,"end":333.057,"text":"所以呢本席會希望說我們這個我看查核的數量每一年4000多件這個沒有問題就是說換言之這幾年下降查核數沒有問題查核數依然達到那個標準但這個案件數往下那我看一下這個造成死亡的案件當中比較多的是第一名是這個"},{"start":336.484,"end":362.595,"text":"扣点数最多的第一个是未设置合规格的防坠设施第二名是施工架位于稳定构造物妥实连接或未符合规定一个有48件连续5年这个都是最多为施第二名有19件其实这两个会跟造成死亡原因意外的类型里面"},{"start":364.096,"end":390.628,"text":"最多死亡是最弱嘛所以其实这两者有相互呼应的关系就是你为施工架为稳固或妥实为设置合规格的防罪设施所以其实这两个缺失最多也反映在这个所谓死亡意外里面最多死亡意外就是最弱嘛所以这两个其实有一定程度的符合那主委"},{"start":392.045,"end":406.238,"text":"你有什麼看法就是說接下來在未來這個數字可以讓他持續下降甚至達到這個沒有人傷亡的這樣的一個狀況除了剛才我提到的跟勞動部來"},{"start":409.851,"end":436.403,"text":"來協同來查核之外加強查核頻率另外我們正在公告預告政府採購法那將來的這個採購企業範本會採剛性企業範本那如果這個採購法能夠獲得答應支持通過之後那也未來實施剛性企業範本我們會在企業範本裡面來修正關於如何防範"},{"start":437.897,"end":462.45,"text":"勞安的問題那第二個呢我們可能還需要再加再來研究關於最有利標評選的分數的這個比例就是如果說這個廠商他就經常性的會造成因為這些設施不足造成這個傷亡那如果是除非是不可歸則一廠商"},{"start":464.571,"end":484.579,"text":"如果是可歸則於廠商的那我們那個扣分的分數要再提高那讓所有的廠商都有所警惕不能做 做不好勞安就不要來承攬政府的公共工程好 這個本席支持那但是本席也有一個建議就是說我們在做這個施工查核的時候"},{"start":486.12,"end":501.678,"text":"如果我們發現老師問題在哪裡那除了在這一個領域加強教育之外也應該透過查核的優化讓大家知道重點是什麼你說你犯了這個錯其實是很嚴重的"},{"start":502.239,"end":521.227,"text":"也就是說如果我們所有的茶盒大家都同對茶盒的缺失都同樣標準的時候它其實在某幾個數字上它就無法凸顯現在的數字都是因為你的什麼問題沒有做好而導致的傷亡那適度的加以來優化"},{"start":522.708,"end":549.315,"text":"我講優化不是只有處分包括政府去強調教育訓練在這幾個老師出問題的這個方面上面這個其實也是一個除了剛剛主委提到之外其實這個也是可以考慮的方法那另外第三個現在科技的運用我看有一些地方政府都開始所謂用AI來做工地的管理那這個其實工程我應該要走在"},{"start":551.818,"end":580.115,"text":"所有公安安全的這個相關單位的前面就公共城會可以協助可以配合跟勞動部一起來怎麼樣把怎麼樣把這個安全現在的科技AI已經運用到很厲害進來怎麼管理因為安全其實常常是管理的問題那如果這個SOP透過科技來協助我相信他會有一定程度的提升主委這個我本席建議的這兩點你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":581.055,"end":596.237,"text":"一切就是公安還是管理的問題那管理就是跟那個公司他的經營文化有關如果這個企業的管理人員如果是很認真做這件事情那麼這個公安的事故就會減少"},{"start":596.778,"end":619.345,"text":"所以我們會遵照委員的這個指示來加強跟勞動部來合作好 謝謝主委 這個都應該加強確保這個所有的安全最後一個小小的問題就是本席過去提到那個AC拋除料去化的問題我也知道觀光省我會這一年多來很認真在協助處理這個事情那也有一些進度啦那本席會覺得說"},{"start":622.306,"end":634.235,"text":"這個問題應該持續啦 現在剩下一些執行面嘛 包括我們現在要求內政部 交通部 地方政府辦理刨除戰 戰至場選址等相關的事宜都在推動 那所以主委這個也要持續的加強"},{"start":636.028,"end":659.88,"text":"因為已經相關的施工規範 企業範本都有修正了將來我們的陸基或者是面層都要用一定比例的刨除料那這是下限 所以一定要用那自然就會去化掉一些OK 這個本席感謝表示光誠會有把本席的話聽進去這是循環經濟 我們在講碳排嘛這是循環經濟很重要的一個環節啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face004e6950bd5db232e72a0011d4bca9f9bff109ec81674948adbe9fa3377f5b155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:41:48 - 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翁启慧到廖俊之院长大概都是五十来岁就接任了所以我们是不是原本也有这个年轻化的打算这个在院长"},{"start":174.69,"end":201.611,"text":"我想这个我们并没有对院长的年龄做任何规划OK 我了解就是说年龄它并不是一个什么样的要件只是我看到过去这个院长年龄似乎有年轻化了那当然我们也会在想说因为这个前副总统因为他现在75岁如果接任任期结束应该差不多就80那对于年轻化这件事情会不会有一些跟我们的本来的想法或规划"},{"start":202.431,"end":222.53,"text":"那這個有一些比較矛盾的地方這個你們自己去想一想但是有一點我想我提醒一下我想就不要換了就是剛剛提到說公開的資訊都一定是公平的但我跟你講本席以及大家最擔心就是不公開的資訊造成不公平這一點我想希望務必要去注意"},{"start":223.231,"end":246.861,"text":"那接下來呢 我們來談到這個院長 我們這個賴清德總統在11月11號頒發了總統科學獎的時候他也宣布要啟動333計畫就是希望在未來的30年內讓台灣在物理 化學 醫學三大領域當中至少增加三個就新增三個諾貝爾這個得主 這個您知道吧"},{"start":247.841,"end":271.75,"text":"是的好那我记得其实今年的四月份的时候我其实针对这个国客会的吴承文主委他当时批评说台湾的这个学界没有诺贝尔奖得主真是丢脸当时我有用这个质询您的看法那院长您可能忘了您怎么回答我想我把那原话让你知道一下您说客观条件确实是很困难的要有很好的条件"},{"start":272.15,"end":297.097,"text":"去吸引人才包括薪水包括给他们机会最重要的是要全民要善待这个研究人员并且不要受政治干预要鼓励他们要有企图心这些都您说的嘛对不对好那过了半年赖总统现在马上宣布说30年内要增加三名台湾诺贝尔奖的得主院长我们现在在您口中所的这些客观的条件目前有变好吗这个目标你觉得可以达成吗"},{"start":298.178,"end":318.159,"text":"还要非常努力我想要达成这个目标至少要做到四件事情第一我们要长期稳定的基础科学的经费的投入很好第二个要鼓励尝试不论是制度做法要鼓励做不同的方向"},{"start":319.195,"end":345.965,"text":"第三个要容许失败我们不可能说每一件事情都做成功的第四个要减少外界的干扰让这些研究员能够专心做研究我觉得这四个都很棒我本心认同但我们再来看一看您一定有听到清大原子科学院的院长叶忠光教授是不是他说了一个说"},{"start":347.526,"end":362.841,"text":"他认为这个说法是极度浩高物远的说法为什么因为执政党把研发经费都投到半导体的产业导致基础科学研究偏废基础科学哪一些呢正是现在我们关切的物理化学医学这些都是"},{"start":362.841,"end":392.461,"text":"是基础科学也就像您刚刚所说的这个做法如果没有改变我们没有投入刚刚您所说的四点当中其中一个的经费下来我想要培养不是您说的非常困难我觉得他说的好高骛远这件事情我反而更赞同所以我想院长针对您刚刚所说的这四点事实上您既然知道这四点是重要的我觉得恐怕不管是在给相关单位行政院总统的建言上面我想您这个临别也要把好的建议留下来可以做到吗"},{"start":394.422,"end":409.848,"text":"我尽量尽量吗是的你要尽全力啊不能尽量啊尽全力还是不好讲就你心里知道这样但又不好讲这个建议不好讲尽所有的量可以可以这样是可以的那所以我想啊"},{"start":410.168,"end":424.665,"text":"我們都希望從我們李遠哲教授在1986年獲得諾貝爾這個化學獎之後已經差不多要40年了台灣一直都沒有這樣的好消息傳出反觀日本我們看到日本真的是旅船捷報"},{"start":425.546,"end":451.486,"text":"就說他們在這方面投入不管是各方面的環境 資源 經費恐怕要比台灣來得多所以有時候該借鏡也要去借鏡這個提供給您一下那最後一個議題上週不知道您有沒有注意到有一場全球視野下的中國抗戰國際學術研討會在北京大學舉行這個您有注意到嗎好像報上看過這樣子的消息"},{"start":452.526,"end":455.751,"text":"也是要注意一下吧還是現在對岸的事情通通不敢注意"},{"start":457.538,"end":482.395,"text":"當然會注意會注意嗎 對所以這件事知道嗎 好與會的演員當中包含了一位中研院的前研究員名字我如果沒有弄錯他叫呂方尚 對不對然後呢這個研究員在受訪的時候強調政治不應干涉學術研究唯有兩岸學者持續交流才能真正理解彼此還原歷史真相院長同意這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":482.955,"end":506.961,"text":"这是大致上是同意的但是政治干预来自各方向所以我们是绝对赞成无条件的学术自由好所以这方向我们是赞成的很赞成OK好那但是行政院现在规定在明年的7月1号开始中研院的研究员副研究员助理研究员和助理等等几乎是全部了如果要复入"},{"start":507.501,"end":535.541,"text":"必须向内政部申请然后得到许可以后才可以去那我们刚才在讨论诺贝尔这个奖的时候院长有说也不希望政治干预这个研究所以在这件事情上面会不会认为这项附录许可制是违反学术自由这样的规范你觉得合理吗那看是怎么合准法假如是合准报备假如学术据我了解只要是学术性的都不会有问题"},{"start":537.883,"end":550.98,"text":"所以办法你还没有看到还没有看到所以你也不知道它会怎么规范或限制是的据我了解那这个许可会是这个申请当然你们申请那这个许可谁来许可许可条件又是什么"},{"start":551.46,"end":570.066,"text":"你知道吗我没有很清楚所以我们在意的是学术性的只要学术性据我了解当然所以院长不会有任何限制您在意的是学术性而且是要完全全学术性政治不要来干预所以我也提醒您您可能要去了解一下说我们会去申请但是它怎么许可"},{"start":570.666,"end":587.962,"text":"办法是什么有哪些限制恐怕你现在都应该要去了解为什么你看我翻开中研院115年的预算你们也编了预算要派员赴大陆这个计划的项目多达76项预算的时候我们可以来讨论所以可见你觉得有相当的必要"},{"start":588.362,"end":616.641,"text":"但这76项如果现在我们已经都把计划跟预算都送到委员会要来审查了那结果我们不知道到底我们自己在审核跟申请的时候许可的标准是什么我觉得也会干扰到你的计划所以这个必须要去了解所以我想院长我想干扰是两方面都有所以我想大家知道说这个大陆的现在的状况所以很多时候我们是面临不同的"},{"start":618.662,"end":636.112,"text":"欸 那這 我再問一個喔所以你現在說兩方面都有干擾所以說兩方面都有干擾學術就對岸也有干擾學術的交流喔 那我想很早以前因為你剛剛說兩方面都有干擾是 很早以前這個大陸的學者來台灣就需要簽署很多的多早以前"},{"start":636.963,"end":665.721,"text":"至少十年了吧对 现在在讲的就是这个交流啊你现在提出来说你们要去交流嘛那我们在讲的是说内政部啊现在说变你要申请要许可可不是你有计划你就可以去了嘛那后来你说现在两岸都有干扰所以就是说我们提这个计划其实对方也不见得会让你去是这样子吗详细我不了解我没有数字你刚刚这样讲但是那确实也有可能啊确实是有可能确实有可能那你编那个你编那个计划编这个预算在编辛酸的哦"},{"start":667.011,"end":685.909,"text":"我们不可能说得到许可在那边预算啊不是那没有预算也没办法申请院长 这预算是要跟你好好讨论你现在说我要去对岸交流那你要去交流结果我们这边说要严格审查第一个你这边可能要知道一下它是怎么审查怎么许可"},{"start":686.269,"end":709.167,"text":"但你今天竟然爆出来说对岸其实也是干扰的那我不懂我们这边其实也要审查许可还有一些限制对岸也要干扰你那你为什么你要去交流什么你这76项计划要去交流什么委员不好意思我们人事事主任这边跟委员说明一下不用不用因为时间已经超过院长你说明一下"},{"start":710.725,"end":723.884,"text":"我們是希望這是純學術的當然我們不可能說是一切都辦妥再來申請計畫那又是幾年之後那你是怎麼知道對岸現在有干擾的"},{"start":724.855,"end":752.214,"text":"你什么时候知道对岸有干扰有干扰是委员讲的干扰是委员讲的哦不是咯我们把它放出来看看好不好我没有讲到干扰我说现在呢你们编了这样的计划编了这样的预算要去交流但是呢我们现在有一个附录许可制要经过内政部然后要许可我要您去了解这个许可的办法可能会是什么那这个许可办法会不会造成你的困扰"},{"start":752.734,"end":777.643,"text":"那後來是你跟我說 干擾是兩岸都有嘛 是不是那我剛剛講的意思是說 你知道嗎當我們計畫都出來了 可是呢萬一這76項 這個內政部都有意見行政院都有意見 那會不會對於我們在做計畫其實是一種干擾我講的是這樣 就你說兩岸都會干擾那我不理解對岸怎麼干擾你們院長請您回答一下 院長請您回答一下我沒有請您發言 對不起"},{"start":779.81,"end":808.368,"text":"我想很多我们想要的学术的活动在两方面都会被要求做一些我们譬如说我们在发表论文的时候常常就被要求没有 我们在讲交流我们现在在讲人的交流交流最终是要发表论文交流不是文光不是 院长交流最后是要发表论文我想我这边不要再耽搁主席的时间但我必须要跟您提如果"},{"start":809.309,"end":834.256,"text":"按照您今天所说的对于我们中研院要跟对岸去对岸做交流这件事情是有受到干扰的事实上我们在审查预算的时候可能会成为我们所有委员在看这个预算可不可以给中研院一个非常大的指标最简单的说法就是我们是不是可以以中央研究院的名义出访"},{"start":835.509,"end":864.727,"text":"那假如不行的話我不曉得這是委員認為是干擾還是不是干擾假如我們不能以我們正確的機構名稱跟國家名稱發表論文的話我不曉得委員認為這是干擾很好啊我覺得您講得非常好啊我還是非常贊同您啊所以其實我們到了預算的時候我們就來看你這每一項計畫有沒有可能按照您之前所說的順利出發那如果不行那預算其實就到時候不要又說藍白山預算了是不是"},{"start":865.527,"end":881.577,"text":"你同意嗎不同意 也不同意因為你只要沒有這個預算就完全沒辦法計程沒辦法開啟我跟你講哪有這種說法啦如果你自己現在都沒有一點把握你現在自己至少計劃出來你都要有個三五分的把握"},{"start":881.997,"end":898.758,"text":"知道这是可能可执行的如果你认为这个都是不可执行的都有这样的问题都有这样的干扰那你把这个预算编出来什么意思呢对不对所以院长我必须要跟你讲啦我觉得不必在现在的这个时间点你再来做这样的一个争执没有意义哦"},{"start":899.198,"end":918.769,"text":"您自己剛所說的您剛才所說的這四點您剛所說的四點包括您自己本身已經帶領了整個中研院學術就是要在學術學術要非常的獨立學術非常的自由發展不要去受政治的干預您要永遠把話講出來以後記在心中可以嗎"},{"start":920.046,"end":935.804,"text":"我一向是如此希望后面还要保持也是这样委员刚才提的三到五分的把握我们也会记在心中我们确实有三到五分的把握院长我们对中研院一向都非常的支持整个教育文化委员会也都非常的支持我们非常感谢但是呢"},{"start":936.724,"end":960.119,"text":"針對剛才我本席所提出來的質詢提醒你們可能遇到的困難或者是會打擊到大家這麼辛苦提出來的計畫那不管是什麼樣的困擾你都應該要去注意到去排除掉這是應該做的吧是我希望說到也要做到這樣好不好謝謝好 謝謝望美玲委員質詢大家可以看到政治的"}]}},{"id":"165353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facec6d9638fbf8e6f325cb08f7d303ca8f4bff109ec8167494829602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:55:40 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長來 部長請好 部長早部長是 陳委員早首先感謝部長及我們國軍弟兄在這次鳳凰颱風這個相關的災後搶救還有這個復建的相關工程那我們除了在11號當天的緊急救災以外那昨天也投入400多名的這個兵力"},{"start":30.778,"end":51.167,"text":"那經過協調我們今天會再增加600名所以預估今天會超過1000名的弟兄在這個災區那邊來協助我們蘇澳鎮的這個相關負災的工程那也謝謝部長另外也更感謝部長能夠在昨天這個 昨天長親自到這個現場這個視察的時候有講到我們那個11號晚上"},{"start":58.834,"end":72.704,"text":"我們的AAV拐這個兩棲突擊車不小心去這個碾壓過的民車那院長才是就由部長跟院長各自這個負擔一部的這個賠償金謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":77.366,"end":95.141,"text":"好 這個部長默默承受了是 是 是那今天就這個國軍人力的這個現況和這個相關的問題來請教我們部長這也是穩定我們部隊戰力一個非常重要的一個因素那再次在我們這次這個國防報告"},{"start":97.058,"end":122.671,"text":"書當中我們提到整體的這個邊線比目前是在79.2%那在今年底有可能會達到80%但如果再細看招募的這個成效今年度計畫招募的人數已經達標流影的這個政策也有成效那不市府的人數也在下降當中那即便在各項工作都達標的情況下我們志願役的這個人力仍舊不足"},{"start":123.231,"end":143.048,"text":"那我想請教部長我們接下來這個編制的總員額還會持續增加嗎那我們所設定的這個招募的員額是不是也應該隨之來調整補上因為這個組織編裝的這個增加以及不適合退伍的情況所造成的這些人力缺口"},{"start":145.057,"end":169.393,"text":"我想組織邊桩的一個調整現在是進入我們這個一個隨時滾動的一個狀態因為隨著我們新式武器的一個獲得那還有我們現在所需要的這些各項的這個防衛能力作戰的一個部署那我們會不斷的去檢討"},{"start":173.416,"end":199.626,"text":"各軍他們所有的這個調整那現在調整的這個過程當中有些是我們會成為已經計劃內那好在看實際的武器裝備的到了以後我們再實際的變裝成軍這樣子那但是一直不斷的在會在做滾動調整好那國軍在這個招募工作上我們要考量到開拓各種兵源"},{"start":200.306,"end":220.139,"text":"的可能 那其中這個官兵再入營的這個方案應該也是其中之一尤其每年有數千名的這個不適服官兵退伍那有可能是因為他本身的經濟或是家庭因素那他如果願意再回到軍中來服役對國軍人力的補充也是一項很重要的幫助"},{"start":220.819,"end":245.337,"text":"那我想請教部長我們隨著相關法規修正之後招募退伍官兵再入營的成效如何那審查機制上是否有夠嚴謹能夠確保我們招回來的是合適的人力跟委員報告我們首先要說明一下我們對於那個放寬不似乎的這個部分這個主要就是以"},{"start":246.44,"end":257.951,"text":"對象是以他當時因為家個人的因素或家庭的因素而申請退伍的不涉及到品德或者是屬於被太主如果涉及到品德跟太主我們不在我們"},{"start":259.02,"end":274.691,"text":"再重新招募露營的這個條件所以他要申請再露營就是屬於不涉品德跟太處這個首先要說明那第二個就是統計契金就是我們3月修訂這個規則以來統計契金大概是379379有379名"},{"start":281.776,"end":307.242,"text":"那在這次報告當中我們也特別提到一年期的這個EWE徵集的情況這部分我想詢問的是和EWE一起恢復的這個校選育士制度也就是這個由兵轉士在去年一共是有350人接受士官的這個訓練稱為下士那也剛好可以補上我們目前最缺人力的這個下士階級來舒緩這個"},{"start":309.403,"end":325.917,"text":"部隊基幹的一個壓力那我想請問部長我們已經有多少一年期的這個EWE異難接受過士官訓練那未來是否會再增加另外這個EWE士官是否已經分發到這個主戰部隊還是仍然留守在這個守備部隊從"},{"start":329.602,"end":356.608,"text":"去年恢復徵集一年級義務棄軍現在的數字是有550個士兵接受士官訓練以後就能下士550名對那這個您剛提到說結訓之後的話現在當然還是優先分發守衛部隊那但是他可以依照他的個人意願也可以到主戰部隊也可以選擇到他依照他的個人意願可以選擇到主戰部隊好就依照他個人的"},{"start":357.628,"end":380.234,"text":"對對對 那後續我想隨著整個徵集人數會不斷的在增加那如果超過守衛部隊的缺額的時候我們再做一個補充到主戰部隊這樣好 那另外有關這個義務預官的制度接下來也應該要慢慢的恢復未來部分的義難也可能會選擇成為"},{"start":382.314,"end":404.187,"text":"這個部隊管理的一個基幹那國安部對於恢復義務役預官考試的部分目前我們是規劃在2027年那在考選的這個制度上會不會有可能會調整那未來我們對於這個義務役預官人力的這個運用和規劃能夠安排到什麼樣的一個職務是不是也請部長簡要說明一下"},{"start":405.708,"end":430.809,"text":"我們規劃就116年就是剛剛有委員垂詢就是說116年就是屬於他大學94年次的他剛好在那一年的七月會大學畢業所以大學畢業以後我們就回復這個預官的一個考選那我想預官考選之後我們就會依照我們的援和需求來實施招考這樣子好"},{"start":431.417,"end":448.525,"text":"那在官部的這個夜報當中我們也有看到增加這個調整各項專業加級的部分以提升我們招募和留營的一個成效那加級和獎金對於官兵士氣的一個激勵固然是相當必要的"},{"start":449.605,"end":476.083,"text":"我們在參酌113年度審計部的審核報告內容當中指出空軍的機務分隊還有修補大隊彈藥維護分隊以及武器掛載的分隊可以支領第二類的戰鬥加急就如同我們螢幕上這個圖表所顯示的很明顯可以看到我們陸軍 海軍還有支通電軍 空軍"},{"start":480.026,"end":494.293,"text":"這個數額的部分很明顯的有一個落差的級別但是這個陸軍和海軍飛行部隊所屬的這個勤務單位他們的任務性質和工作內容和空軍雷同並且頻繁的在支援"},{"start":495.113,"end":514.932,"text":"目前的這個操演和演訓的任務卻沒有被納入第二類的戰鬥部隊加級的匡列單位而先前我們國防部也有回應本案在109年曾經討論過但是並未獲得最後的核定那我想請教部長倘若工作性質雷同任務繁重的相當"},{"start":516.454,"end":527.309,"text":"這個程度 陸軍 海軍 飛行部隊所屬的勤務單位是不是也應該要納入戰鬥部隊的一個佳績請摘要回答"},{"start":528.861,"end":550.921,"text":"委員好 委員其實那個陸軍海軍的部分它就是有關於它的那些機務分隊的部分我們已經在今年8月呈報行政院了就是納入第二類的戰鬥部隊加級那目前有人是行政總署在審查中好 已經納入了嗎是 我們的方案是有納入了那這個案子還要經過行政院核定才能生效大概什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":551.613,"end":562.218,"text":"我們八月份報到行政院去那目前是任總在會辦 就是在會審相關部會當中好 那也請持續追蹤是 我們會持續掌握好 謝謝部長的答詢"}]}},{"id":"165369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face92371aeb70c0757463fe2012470c7542999b3dda73827680ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:29:07 - 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請一下陳經德主委陳主委你好 今年來極端型的氣候肆虐我們看到像丹納斯颱風或是鳳凰颱風對於台方不管是南台灣或是最近的宜蘭蘇澳都造成很大的衝擊跟傷害"},{"start":27.972,"end":45.688,"text":"那當然公共工程委員會並離職者當然是沒有直接的指揮救災也沒有說針對補助相關的是直接的這樣的一個參與不過公共工程委員會當然在事前的防災它相關的風險評估或是防災的標準"},{"start":48.69,"end":72.982,"text":"這也是公共工程委員會的一個職責在救災的時候也提供這種掌握相關的救災的狀況以及提供應變中心專業的資源那當然在災後相關的重建計畫公共工程委員會也是扮演著重要的角色那其實不久前我去台南將軍參加一個活動"},{"start":75.643,"end":93.11,"text":"其實在電視上我們看到災後的這樣的一個重建在進行或是在颱風當時造成這些屋頂重大傷害就覺得已經非常的心情沉重但是到現場一看真的是讓你眼淚都快掉下來"},{"start":94.491,"end":109.845,"text":"屋頂受損的狀況以及還有部分的房屋還是用蓬布還是用蓬布來作為一個暫時的屋頂當然當地的民眾也說政府有相關的補助但是缺工"},{"start":110.586,"end":136.643,"text":"缺料以及補助的金額大家都還是認為不夠了但是最重要還是缺工缺料這個部分當然公共工程委員會或是陳主委在過程當中都給予極大的一個專業的資源跟協助但是這個政府應該是要再加大相關的協助的力量請陳主委說明一下這次是因為台灣每年都有颱風"},{"start":138.601,"end":143.485,"text":"那關於民宅受損的補助這麼普遍這是第一次"},{"start":144.862,"end":172.674,"text":"原因是因為他民宅受損的數量很多那另外呢大多數弱勢為什麼是大多數弱勢呢因為這舊的三合院那屋頂已經修理好的大概都不會催但是是舊的瓦或舊的房子弱勢的住或是長年沒有修的所以行政院才確定這個透過這個大院通過的特別預算或者是"},{"start":173.874,"end":199.694,"text":"特別統籌分配稅款去做一些資源衛助然後也協調公共工程相關的這個廠商將近300家去認養各個區台南重災區有17個區去認養那整個材料呢我們也把它定下來就是分成每坪2000每坪總共是2000的3000的4000的都是比一般物"},{"start":200.975,"end":227.416,"text":"一般的還低然後來媒合廠商我知道公共工程委員會以及行政院在相關的救災都全力的協助但是我認為在目前已經是11月了還是有災民用著帆布來遮蓋屋頂這個政府是逃避不了這樣的一個責任我認為說在缺工缺料這個部分當然陳主委也"},{"start":228.82,"end":248.556,"text":"整合全國的這些廠商來進行相關的協助我認為還要再更積極每一戶都去問到家裡去問然後弱勢的免費幫你做你要拆的幫你拆會計務去化幫你去化要修繕的沒有廠商來修繕那"},{"start":250.271,"end":273.037,"text":"還是有人認為他自行修繕那自行修繕我們有補助最後再加碼再發兩萬那我們的了解有的是事實上沒有住或者產權複雜產權複雜甚至有的我看過一棟房屋是從去年地震的時候壞掉那地震的時候政府也有補助啊那個房子壞到現在還壞所以並不是"},{"start":275.658,"end":302.304,"text":"我的建議還是我們還是積極的整合相關的資料來針對相關的災禍重建這個不能說是政府的責任因為整個下去協助修繕的有的的確不修繕而且請區長每一戶去說你的確不修繕然後來有一個證明這些相關整合的資料還是要更確實的去掌握以及對災民相關的重建"},{"start":302.924,"end":325.366,"text":"我們還是要更積極的來給予協助那接下來就是蘇澳的問題了當然宜蘭很會下雨蘇澳更是宜蘭最會下雨的地方我想主委也是蘇澳人那我對蘇澳也非常的熟悉有7年有在相關的這些大蘇澳地區相關的工作"},{"start":326.207,"end":349.017,"text":"不管是愛丁國小、馬賽國小、南安國小都是由我當年不管是擴音設備、照明設備都是我去裝的40多年前其實我要請教這個主委就是說針對蘇澳這一次你對於蘇澳的了解相關的這些災後的重建的重點在哪邊"},{"start":351.526,"end":373.053,"text":"蘇澳是蘇澳街上因為蘇澳是宜蘭最會下雨的蘇澳有三個區 蘭芳澳 新馬跟蘇澳蘇澳又特別會下雨近年來那附近等於全國這個雨量是最多的那這一次呢有局部的有淹了所以我們立即也動員了國軍然後協助清理那"},{"start":374.881,"end":401.051,"text":"有一個下水道水利署會來再繼續來施作另外蘇阿溪分洞昨天院長也正式宣布新增了21億總共75億全部由中央來補助宜蘭縣政府做這個蘇阿溪分洞道那這個工期大概3年左右會完工那蘇阿溪分洞做好之後有山上下來的雨水就可以部分分流到"},{"start":402.131,"end":429.744,"text":"南方澳的內皮海灘 內皮海岸所以蘇澳街上就會比較減少這些受災的可能另外就是阿里史溪他有一個治理計畫那個之前已經完成了那抽水機也有了我們會要求這個相關單位那麼繼續去有沒有繼續加強的地方那如果這兩個做完了之後我想會減少蘇澳街上那淹水的這個機率"},{"start":431.145,"end":449.945,"text":"我想還是要更具體的來協助宜蘭縣政府進行相關的這些災後重建的公共工程讓蘇澳的民眾可以得到更具體生命財產的一個基本的保障那主委我現在要請教說我們台灣的公共工程每年植栽"},{"start":451.388,"end":468.649,"text":"死亡的人数还是非常高大概都在30人至40人当然历年的这种直灾死亡人数来对比营造业这样的一个大方向先来做一个比较全部的死亡人数在2022年是320人"},{"start":471.232,"end":489.802,"text":"营造业就占了156人2023、2024也都是差不多这样的一个比例是越来越高了到2024年甚至营造业已经占了51%那我们的公共工程历年的建树跟死伤的人数其实都还是有30人至40人"},{"start":491.403,"end":517.676,"text":"我们公共工程是国家重要的一个工程的应该是作为一个指标对劳工生命保障的一个基本的指标但是每年还是有30人至40人这样重大的死亡件数让我们真的是觉得公共工程必须针对这个部分还是要全力的加以督促那其实我们看到历年这一种高低差没有设置这种"},{"start":518.456,"end":532.999,"text":"防罪的設施件數也逐年在增加每年都有一千件以上那今年的一至十月都已經有841件那很重要就是說歷年的職災死亡人數營造工程"},{"start":534.161,"end":551.403,"text":"它占比很高而且逐年增加那營造業的這種職安是我國職安面臨最大的課題但是我們針對公共工程方面雖然有輕微改善但是每年職障還有30人至40人死亡那在審核到的違規樣態裡面"},{"start":554.13,"end":575.231,"text":"最大宗的就是高低差兩公尺以上沒有按照規定去設置這種防罪設施那每年大概有一千件這種也就是說在公共工程的現場基礎的防護設施都不夠那工程會有沒有督促業者做具體改善的作為來說明一下"},{"start":576.062,"end":603.73,"text":"報告委我想這個質案的問題除了公共工程委員會當然督導公共工程是責無旁貸那另外主管機關是勞動部那勞動部主管機關他有他的這個罰則或者是相關的這個這個處理所以我覺得我們公共工程委員會相關的查核將來要跟勞動部來配合然後相關有一個平台聯繫只要"},{"start":605.01,"end":629.658,"text":"公共工程委員會去查核了發現有相關問題了我們立即就就跟勞動部聯合由勞動部職安檢查的去去查他那個罰則處分處罰會比較高啦那第二個就是公共工程委員會裡面我就是查核查核再查核就密集的查核我想來減少這些公安的傷亡啦那第三個就是對於這些這個"},{"start":633.029,"end":633.049,"text":"好 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那個跟你報告就是說我們有那個知道這個資訊有立即先去了解啦"},{"start":295.785,"end":309.729,"text":"那初步就像主委剛剛跟您報告的那據我的了解它並不是簽約以後再從合約去變更它應該如果原來就200多億那可能是前面的緩價過程時不時在"},{"start":311.67,"end":328.048,"text":"那這一塊因為根據媒體的報告好像檢調有介入在調查那我們會依照我們的集合機制去集合但是因為集合跟檢調有時候資訊會被檢調先拿走所以我們在不妨礙檢調調查的狀況底下進行集合"},{"start":328.769,"end":354.5,"text":"其實你們一般來講主委我特別一再我對於你這個主委的位置大家都覺得說這關很小可是我認為很重要你管他關大不大的問題前神台灣多少公共工程都要你們來監督都要你們來協助不要忘了你們當初任何國家的重大政策"},{"start":355.18,"end":382.33,"text":"要跟工程有關的一定是會你們的啊每一件事情你們都要了解所以 拜託六十天 兩個月一定把他理清楚這樣好不好好 另外一個本席非常重視就是公安的問題可是這個單位啊就很奇怪七條人命耶來 主委這個是誰管的"},{"start":383.328,"end":406.763,"text":"七條人命 除了勞動部要做以外勞動部要查以外這七條人命如何解決有沒有跟人家民事的這些和解主委 你有沒有了解這些事公安擔當不是你們啦 但是發生事情你們也要去監督啊"},{"start":407.982,"end":426.931,"text":"市長跟媒體的報告還是有一點點出入那麼就中油三接這個外擴的工程大概這個組成因為他是共同承攬那麼就黃昌公司的部分他大概有三次的質安的問題"},{"start":428.132,"end":456.187,"text":"那慈安大概死了三個人然後一個人受傷並不是媒體講的七個人 首先跟委員報告不是啦 下包傷啦下包傷 不是只有黃昌黃昌是三起其他還有下包傷喔因為媒體講的是黃昌那我們部分會再去注意啦因為你捅包跟下包下包發生事情 捅包掩蓋這是最要不得的所以主委 我跟你講就是"},{"start":457.612,"end":481.673,"text":"這個人命關天的情況之下不要去掩蓋事實就是事實所以啊我還是要拜託陳主委因為一向你上任以後我每一次都是在談公安的問題啊薪資的問題啊這個人命關天這可以預防的公安當然就是要公安那我們也承認三接的工程的危險度是高的"},{"start":484.062,"end":501.652,"text":"這個承攬三接都是大的廠商大概都上市公司而且都承攬重大政府公務工程如果有公安致死我們會取消他的金職獎所以這些廠商一定跟這個職安這個受傷或死去的"},{"start":503.433,"end":525.645,"text":"這個參與者一定會達成某程度就是一定有法律上的或者是我想這個公安的死亡那我現在就是說下包商網上的這個資訊是不明確私底下就解決掉我要拜託你們這次調查連這些也把它調查下去第一個就是"},{"start":526.925,"end":554.579,"text":"訪價的問題 第二個就是公安的問題 是不是即時回報其實這種東西因為很多下包商他們都是這樣做喔私底下姐姐說 啊不要不要 不要這麼大啦我就請你把事情改觀這個也是要不得的所以還是要把它列入紀錄所以要拜託這兩件事情拜託主委要責成啊看副主委或者有關的那個來幫幫忙把它釐清這兩個部分 好不好好 謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"165367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facedae2e7b217bcc3c763fe2012470c7542999b3dda73827680581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:07:28 - 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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":12.527,"end":34.479,"text":"好主委早主委現在公共工程委員會因為在今年颱風比較多所以說我們有兩個重建條例都要麻煩工程委員會好好緊盯進度跟加快腳步那我想在這一次鳳凰颱風到最後雖然說沒有造成全島全台許多民眾的一個災情但中南部還是確實有一些風雨的影響"},{"start":35.475,"end":53.204,"text":"那我們也看到新聞媒體畫面就有講到是說到目前為止台南都還是有一些民宅是用帆布他的屋頂還沒有修繕那當然我看到今天我們的報告裡面也有列出這個數據其實是有修繕的那中間的落差到底在哪裡是不是可以再說明一下"},{"start":53.564,"end":77.087,"text":"報告委 前進指揮所協調全國超過290家廠商進駐梅河屋頂受損的民眾來做修繕總是完成超過1000家的廠商而且行政院也補助受災居民相關的經費弱勢者完全免費"},{"start":78.268,"end":102.417,"text":"那至於不修繕的部分我們也足以去詢問確認他是否不修繕那麼足以詢問有的是因為產權的問題有的是因為根本沒有住在那裡這個掌握有多少因為我們看到在這一次即便是鳳凰颱風前都還有譬如說七谷區譬如說台南市長黃偉哲都還下令全面的檢測甚至七谷區的災民也講說還蓋帆布"},{"start":104.398,"end":131.687,"text":"那就代表是说他其实他还是住在那边他不愿意修缮然后有的不住在那里因为产权复杂所以不修缮有的是仓库有的是其他的各式各样我们有请各区区长挨家挨户的去确认而且签名说这个不需要修缮但是来这样子主委他不愿意修缮但是他的屋顶破损是事实我们也看到新闻画面确实还有一些民宅是有帆布那会不会造成公共危险"},{"start":132.725,"end":154.899,"text":"所以有的是鼓勵拆除如果拆除的話是政府免費幫他拆除免費去化這些營建的廢棄物那如果他仍然不接受拆除那麼也不修繕那麼台南市政府會依據相關法規要求一定時間之內改善否則依建築法相關規定會強制拆除"},{"start":155.379,"end":171.408,"text":"是因為畢竟他如果說是帆布然後又這樣子的一個這個不夠穩固的情況甚至剛剛有如同您講的他可能人不住在那邊那如果人不住在那邊那下一次有風災來或是有任何情況的話他有可能那個地方會影響到周邊的民眾"},{"start":172.288,"end":194.965,"text":"對所以有請台南市政府就依建築法相關規定那麼告知請求改善否則就強制拆除而讓我們國人更看到不希望看到就是台灣絕對不是一個我們絕對不是一個落後的地方嘛中華民國不應該存在說到這個時間點的四個月後都還有民宅是用帆布蓋著那這樣好像是我們大家沒有動起來"},{"start":195.465,"end":209.643,"text":"但事實上要人給人 要錢給錢這次的條例600億立法院也沒有任何刪除甚至我們也希望加速進行而我現在還看到是說我們可能針對這次條例還會再提高追加預算 是不是"},{"start":211.321,"end":225.636,"text":"並沒有提高追加預算的這個計畫不過針對這個要自行修繕不管他是自行修繕完畢或未修繕完畢那麼我們前一陣子才每戶再加發兩萬塊目的就是希望他趕快自行修繕"},{"start":226.377,"end":254.175,"text":"好 那主委我再請教一下那台南嘉義的部分我們這邊討論一個部分那另外花蓮地區到現在淹涉湖的狀況因為在這次的鳳凰颱風裡面又發生名利村有淹水並且液體的事件那我們到底現在對於淹涉湖因為我們也看到之前內政部已經有請我們水利專家李鴻元李鴻元也講是說其實馬太安溪的淹涉湖左偏波是不穩的"},{"start":254.935,"end":267.153,"text":"那也給予相關的建議那我想這些建議其實都應該是當作是我們的工程單位的一些參考但到目前為止講說政府沒有展開討論那會不會就變成還是一個不定期炸彈"},{"start":269.377,"end":289.451,"text":"縣社府農業部持續在監測當中那麼也準備做變道一直上去到縣社府這個地方但是變道必須大概六個月才能夠完成那麼這個等於是狀況持續掌握包括到昨天晚上那麼也發現沒有 主委我們先還原一下譬如像這次的名利村事件"},{"start":290.271,"end":310.446,"text":"水利署在之前其實名利村村長也都一直示警是說那邊有可能會有議題的危險那水利署在之前還沒有發生議題的時候也媒體報導就講是說放心不會有問題但沒想到不到一天的時間就發生議題我跟委員報告馬太安溪的北方是光復跟萬種比較高"},{"start":312.367,"end":338.991,"text":"它的南邊是光護箱比較低那麼右邊的堤防會比較好但是因為整個馬太安溪目前河床幾乎跟堤防一樣高有的甚至比堤防還高換句話說只要好雨下來每個地方都會溢流因為整個馬太安溪已經很高所以它就是一個不定時炸彈啊它現在是積極的促進這就是跟現場那個村長他們觀察的是一樣的意思因為馬太安溪非常大範圍非常廣"},{"start":339.691,"end":365.168,"text":"所以要積極再輸進 輸進就要有變道因為卡車進進出出又有變道所以這個水利署一直到昨天凌晨把那個整個把它疏洪道已經開闢出來然後也加強了圍堵暫時停住名利村繼續淹水的問題那這部分我們會要求經濟部水利署必須非常的"},{"start":366.868,"end":383.255,"text":"這個注意監測那個地方的狀況如果有民眾反應應該隨時改善那我要說的是整個馬太安溪河床非常高所以並不是說一個變道變成一個主要切口每個地方都可能溢過去好 其實主委你剛剛講這個話相對是公允"},{"start":385.296,"end":403.703,"text":"就是說不是因為以前我們都存在是人定勝天但是看到現在極端氣候的狀況那還有就是說如果真的有一些地方是沒有辦法掌握那地方的民眾確實有災情回報的時候這就不分中央地方大家應該要共同面對跟解決而不是說"},{"start":404.583,"end":426.202,"text":"有這種我們看到媒體報導居然還有這個水利署官員當然他是什麼樣他可能是想要安災民的心可是如果說應該要把確實的風險也都應該要如實的告知才不會造成這種錯誤的落差其實有些時候錯誤的落差很有可能會導致喪失黃金的這個逃命時間或是黃金的救援時間"},{"start":427.063,"end":449.161,"text":"因為水利署也提及動員的幾個河川分署積極在輸進當中而且那個輸進不是3年5年可以完成恐怕10年20年所以現在主委能不能讓國人知道現在也已經過了那一段時間了那現在馬太安溪這個部分你剛剛講有可能要動員要10年才有可能讓花蓮鄉親完完全全不會有"},{"start":450.413,"end":466.724,"text":"未來不用再提前調達馬太安溪的輸進要輸進到一個程度需要很長時間因為太太大了所以我們現在計畫的時程日期因為現在還好過了11月可能不會有太大的好雨第一個是"},{"start":468.845,"end":493.752,"text":"關戶鄉這邊的堤防要做成這個超級堤防就是目前是寬是10米 這樣會做50米對 那甚至在往 五倍之多對 然後甚至在往外推200米的滯洪道所以等於第三個防線 這是堤防的部分那河川疏進加緊進行那會做變道道驗射壺 監測驗射壺那驗射壺因為那個地方容易崩塌"},{"start":494.272,"end":499.884,"text":"那据我了解目前它的原认设股的右侧又少数的崩塌了"},{"start":501.795,"end":526.963,"text":"所以 主委 到明年 因為現在11月了嘛那到明年的夏季 颱風雨季來臨之前這一些短暫立即的危險 能不能把它改善我會要求農業部呢 在明年就是夏季 夏天之前六月之前 儘速把那個從底下的便道一直做到院舍我必須 明年六月之前要完成有辦法"},{"start":527.983,"end":541.19,"text":"經費已經到位了300億也已經通過了然後我們要求農業部進入趕工明年6月之前完成那個變道那個變道打通了之後機具才有可能上去人才有可能上去好 主委最後一個問題"},{"start":543.359,"end":565.769,"text":"前天看到中油的三接的一個工程也有媒體報導我想你這邊有看到因為這是一個全國矚目的工程從當時的公投到現在持續在進行當中那但是居然有報導出現說有這個中間的過程裡面還要從原本的94億然後一直要增加到250幾億諸位"},{"start":569.452,"end":584.094,"text":"看到這個報導之後你會不會覺得很訝異先講掌管全國公共工程照理講不應該出現公共工程有這樣子的一個離譜狀況我們一般機關的小額採購都不可能更何況是一個牽涉到幾百億的國家工程"},{"start":584.898,"end":609.537,"text":"我跟委員報告 那麼 中友已經澄清了 沒有這回事了那這個是他的第二期 外國黃鍋題所以這個是媒體的誤傳 媒體的報導錯誤可能有人蓄意放這樣的消息因為預算不是中友能編的 預算他是委託委託這個公共工程所以公共工程有查核過了嗎 到目前為止因為如果說有這樣 中友有這樣說明 本身有看到但我說公共工程有沒有去做了解"},{"start":612.202,"end":614.845,"text":"這一個算是一個列管案件重大工程的列管吧"},{"start":618.649,"end":641.349,"text":"本席強調本席是有任何不法我們絕對支持減掉勿枉勿縱我們可以去查核了因為這個本身就是重大公共工程本來我們是管進度管工程品質那如果說這個採購過程如果有這樣的事情那當然公共工程委員會會依職責去了解了不過因為我也擔任過專務董事長"},{"start":644.091,"end":670.604,"text":"那我了解這個這一個不會是任內不是第一期還沒有發報我就下台了第二期的部分他是顧問公司來籌編的好來那我只最後請教一件事這一個工程以我們公共工程的專業來講因為它其實差距非常大如果說九十幾億可以做出來到最後兩百多億那等於是暴增兩倍多的工程經費"},{"start":671.923,"end":699.138,"text":"合理嗎這部分我們會了解就是跟物價或設計有沒有關係而且它是跟原來在岸上的施工已經完全不一樣原來設計是在岸上那現在被往外推將近一公里所以那個經費一定增加的經費增加可能這部分但是增加兩倍三倍合不合理這是重點嘛這個我們會去了解好請再給本席以及我們交通委員會在後續了解的資料好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face642ec889f8a1d7818ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec816749488fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:08 - 09:53:20","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:40:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:53:20+08:00","duration":792,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.83221875,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.08471875,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.94346875,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.56409375,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.67721875000001,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.00346875000001,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.07034375,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.92971875,"end":163.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.80284375000002,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.72409375,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.77721875,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.91784375,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.31346875000003,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.44909375000003,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.18221875,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.70471875000004,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.49346875000003,"end":307.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.11784375,"end":311.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.98221875,"end":343.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.79909375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.07846875,"end":351.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.24284375,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.18346875000003,"end":347.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.56284375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.80596875000003,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.15784375000004,"end":409.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.07659375000003,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.60784375000003,"end":413.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.60346875000005,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.79721875,"end":419.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.98221875,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.33221875000004,"end":427.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.04846875000004,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.72346875000005,"end":431.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.81159375000004,"end":435.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.57034375,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.36346875000004,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.08409375,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.12346875000003,"end":461.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.84409375,"end":467.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.15596875000006,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.48409375000006,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.96909375,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.86284375,"end":502.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.23909375000005,"end":522.9365937499999},{"s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請江署長參議員早"},{"start":10.317,"end":29.49,"text":"謝謝首先當然是要關心一下署長但身為也是家長全國的家長還有國人現在是蠻緊張的針對這個芬普尼的雞蛋事件所以我也拜讀了非常多署長以前擔任醫師的時候所撰寫的文章當時你有提到說超標不等於中毒"},{"start":30.35,"end":53.808,"text":"但是確實對孩童有超標的危險對民眾也有但是分譜你的超標不是急性中毒是慢性中毒至於長期攝入對人體會造成何種長期慢性的危害還需要長期的追蹤並且您建議要有病理學的研究政府單位應該要做好的是風險溝通平常就應該要有宣傳並且教育民眾有這樣子的基礎"},{"start":54.908,"end":70.437,"text":"那個時候當時的官員啊他是跟你講一模一樣的話就是超標不等於中毒那可能要吃幾顆才有風險等等的但是您以醫師的角度說同樣身為人民也是醫師"},{"start":71.678,"end":92.195,"text":"政府這樣子說會有點像是推卸責任可是這幾天你也知道說引起大家爭議的是你沒有辦法告訴大家要吃還是不要吃你只有說不安心就別吃吃100顆才有風險你會覺得對於你以前給政府的建議你現在是不是也應該要有所修正呢"},{"start":95.331,"end":104.343,"text":"委員這邊就由我來簡單跟委員做進一步說明那對於分譜你的雞蛋的部分那才源頭上面其實是在我們"},{"start":107.867,"end":133.366,"text":"長期以來我們的監測的計畫向下那監測現在是對於我們的蛋品 禽肉以及水產品的監測那監測的過程中呢我們蛋品呢從107年到現在已經監測4282次那我們看到的是這一次我們在11月4號的時候在彰化縣衛生局 彰化縣衛生局局長非常非常棒他們去監測之後"},{"start":135.034,"end":162.59,"text":"有相關的數據到中央續產所去因為這個檢驗的過程中其實就好像我們平常在醫院檢驗需要一點時間因為它就是常態檢驗整個續產所它幫忙協助了許多所以11月4號確立之後那也激動的我們就告訴他們要主動下架那我對於這個部分特別跟委員說明了因為要主動下架這件事情是要精準的我們的蛋品的需求量相當的大我們也高度的關注"},{"start":164.271,"end":178.224,"text":"部長提醒我們那我們針對中間檢驗之後只要是檢驗到什麼證據到哪我就應該要公佈到哪裡這個我們會一定會虛心的進一步的檢討那我們這次4號確立之後彰化圈衛生局做5號確定的當批的"},{"start":181.767,"end":208.129,"text":"能夠下架 接下來就是當場的讓它能夠控制下架所以到10月6號重新去抽這次的檢驗就短了因為緊急事件就要掛急診檢驗不可能那麼久所以就8號出來所以我們9號就確立的確是這個確立之後我們更擴大的是說針對I47這個場文雅畜牧場全面要讓它做下架 不能再吃了"},{"start":208.829,"end":233.697,"text":"那民眾還是會很擔心所以我就希望能夠有點擔心當然是有點學者的概念那個基因裡面 學U裡面還有我覺得當然是在急性中毒跟慢性中毒裡面讓民眾去了解那這個過程中或許這個傳達訊息有些可能要更精準一點點這我們可以繼續去努力但是讓大家能夠知道的是精準的去對於該下架的下架"},{"start":234.497,"end":246.89,"text":"精準的對於我們的打接範圍到哪裡為打接範圍因為一天的彈的使用量其實我們過去也經歷過差不多是2000萬顆所以我們也很擔心造成整合所以這次是比較精準的去說明先到這邊我們等一下繼續討論"},{"start":249.973,"end":273.678,"text":"因為大部分的家長他其實只是想知道說到什麼時候才可以安心什麼時候可以安心吃當然您剛講的都很好我也聽得懂但你要講人民可以聽得懂的語言嘛那下一個我就想問這是2017年您在農傳媒他有個專家會議所以你也是以專家的身份說你說政府應該慎重的處理國人實用到"},{"start":274.939,"end":299.297,"text":"這個雞蛋的慢性中毒問題並且進行甲狀腺的問題檢測搭配流行病學去看發病的比例如何那你剛有講當然中間有個時間差所以15萬已經流出了你現在也自己承認可能沒辦法全數收回現在只有回收了3萬那你有覺得當時你建議說處理國人慢性中毒的應變與機制"},{"start":301.178,"end":302.123,"text":"這個提議應該要啟動 應該要制定了嗎"},{"start":306.088,"end":331.386,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步說明我們針對說假如芬普尼持續存在我們要做這件事情那因為我們驗了從107到現在4282次沒有驗到一次表示它的風險它出現的次數並不是常態的那這一次呢其實也很感謝跨部會的合作之下那也有剪掉的介入能夠知道呢"},{"start":331.926,"end":359.289,"text":"是在鸡的羽毛身上经过皮肤等等或者着食之后进入体内所以这个很清楚的其实是在应该是喷洒的一个观察这样子的过程中它是突发的事件对于芬普尼来讲是突发事件所以我们会继续去针对突发事件的突发的进行的方式所以现在的话其实您是认为不用启动当时您身为专家的一个建议这个我也听懂了再来我们来看一下"},{"start":359.989,"end":378.666,"text":"你也寫過一篇文章叫做 台灣應該立即穿上防彈衣提出四個重點 本席也非常認同第一個我們討論完了 超標並非中毒第二個是提高檢查密度 追查超標原因四 加強用藥的管制 加強用藥管制這可能是農業部的事情"},{"start":379.346,"end":402.188,"text":"但您當時說政府應該要釐清其原因為何現階段要找出超標的原因安定民心接著要提高檢查密度你說短期內一定要提高檢驗的密度和強度阻斷流通的預防性下架您認為你這次沒有辦法全數回收回來算是一個成功的預防性下架嗎"},{"start":403.588,"end":427.458,"text":"這邊跟委員說明一下就如同部長提醒我們一定要檢驗到哪裡我們做到哪裡這一次它的特性是這樣部長提示一定要做到的是這個廠的蛋一顆都不能讓它佔進市場前面的蛋它的確有一段時間這裡面的使用我們確立之後能夠把它給擋住"},{"start":428.14,"end":442.339,"text":"那這邊稍微說明一下因為在畜牧場裡面那畜牧場動物用藥的管理辦法裡面如果檢驗沒有確立也沒有檢出它的蛋是有異常跟環境異常等等它們就要流動了"},{"start":443.561,"end":459.862,"text":"部長非常堅持的在跨部會的協議當下我們把它擋下來了所以只要我們確立8號 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這邊這也是您"},{"start":584.329,"end":597.649,"text":"之前曾經說過的你教政府怎麼做事嘛你說在污染影響不明污染源不明的情況之下政府因為無法給出相關的保證所以應該誠實的向國人表明要先釐清檢驗那"},{"start":600.413,"end":624.805,"text":"我在這邊是具體想要求衛福部食藥署你們是不是去跟檢調還有農業部做溝通他們現在有可能查到上游就這個農藥的上游嘛那這個農藥是不是有可能也有給其他的基農這個是你們應該做橫向溝通的不是嗎這就是你當初寫的文章啊提高檢查密度啊追查真相啊"},{"start":625.578,"end":651.915,"text":"包委員 這個其實已經在做了 已經做了確定是已經在做 也在溝通所以這部分是已經在做了那你剛剛為什麼不說是不是個案剛剛我們就是一直在問你有沒有可能它不是個案啊因為目前看到是個案但是呢 我們絕對不放棄有可能是橫向更多的但是以我的目前的證據我只能說現在是個案所以最後有可能不是 對吧"},{"start":652.746,"end":665.985,"text":"這個部分其實農業部在努力的時候我們跨部會裡面他們研議最後一定我想會有答案來跟各位我希望可以如同您之前的文章一樣可以及時的去做預防性下架好嗎我們不希望再看到蛋回收不回來的狀況"},{"start":667.53,"end":684.601,"text":"這部分我們會特別盡力加強最後問部長最後一個問題而已早上在做提案說明的時候有跟部長講到說非常感謝昭緯安排這次的審查法案是因為真的跨黨派的委員都非常的關心以及藥物"},{"start":685.481,"end":706.937,"text":"今年有退出的明年可能有更多會退出的但唯一沒有提案也沒有表明立場的就是衛福部雖然您剛有做一個口頭報告但是我們還是要問如果我們開始做這個審查的話衛福部的立場到底會是什麼我們之前上禮拜已經經歷過了很多委員包括民進黨團都提出了外送員專法"},{"start":708.138,"end":716.817,"text":"那勞動部始終沒有版本但是在隨著我們審查的過程他們就說他們12月以前要端出版本所以我想知道衛福部的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":718.48,"end":745.386,"text":"這個跟委員報告就是說對於這種癌藥新藥的這個可敬性我們是現在有專款那按照這個需求在增加中啦那至於說要不要成立一個在這個癌症防治法裡面有一個癌藥基金多元基金這個事情因為剛剛我在報告裡面有特別提到按照這個政府財政紀律法的規定我們一定要去找到以國庫撥補我們目前是國庫在撥補我們要去找到"},{"start":746.867,"end":758.278,"text":"國庫撥補以外的裁員才有辦法新設基金你可以找啊你找你編我們一定OK啊我們繼續再找啦因為這個也要找裁員所以你的意思是說昭緯一邊審你會一邊跟昭緯做滾動性的溝通"},{"start":763.662,"end":782.116,"text":"我們一直都在溝通我跟趙偉一直在溝通因為趙偉一向就是很很在意的這個癌友的權益啦趙偉是我們後生會的交集人對對對他非常關心癌友所以我們一直都在各項的癌症議題上都有在討論好 謝謝趙偉謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長來 署長請為接下來請林月琴委員來做選答"},{"start":792.103,"end":792.124,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"165358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face020b8cf97dd905615cb08f7d303ca8f4999b3dda73827680d6b39e882d62cf0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:56:32 - 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謝謝主席 麻煩總市館長黃峰英黃市館長好 請總市館長市館長 第一次來我們這邊備詢嘛好 歡迎你代表基層的市官我請教你很簡單的幾個問題那麥克風要打開 要不然不能做會議記錄"},{"start":30.017,"end":46.495,"text":"第一個 我們現在在連籍的市官長 市督啦有的我們會把他提升到營的市督是選優派上去 還是選菜鳥倒楣的派上去原則上當然是選優上去原則上是選優 那現況是什麼同樣會選優真的嗎是"},{"start":52.284,"end":76.027,"text":"你知道基層嘛那連的士官長願不願意去當市都那個營的市都基本上因為現在戰鬥加急的關係就願不願意他會有這種現象就不願意嘛所以不願意我這連的士官長123等我們現在派一個上去營喔看起來是變大囉然後現在大家都覺得不想去會派誰去"},{"start":77.894,"end":103.274,"text":"包委員通常主官都還是會去勸那些那個資深的幹部去所以變成要接銀市都的要用勸的勸不聽的就倒楣或者是菜鳥對啊這個我沒有怪任何人我待會講制度出現的問題在哪裡那銀市都跟聯市都做的工作一不一樣基本上一樣但是量能不一樣內容一樣量更大好謝謝總事館長我們請部長"},{"start":105.967,"end":108.152,"text":"我剛才提這個問題我們今天的主題是邊線筆總市長你請回我們每次談到邊線筆不足"},{"start":118.086,"end":141.874,"text":"我們軍方常提出來就是 掃紙化 工作環境 薪資報酬 部隊的管理那我們多講一點還有榮譽感 都在招募上或留營對不對 處理留營率 處理招募 這兩件事情我覺得這也重要 但這是治標 什麼標呢 就是結果它的源頭有幾件事情"},{"start":142.634,"end":167.034,"text":"第一個我們的邊莊以及我們的透過薪資專長加擠有沒有把人力資源丟到對的地方以及本席上一次就建議我也跟這個劉佩芝中央提過我們軍方要建立一套科學的叫做這個戰力域值也就是threshold最小的臨界點我先剛才講我剛才問市都的事情"},{"start":169.08,"end":183.133,"text":"國軍現在有一些制度是謬誤的反淘汰而我現在質詢你不是要給你聽而已我們請行政院的人長財主聽清楚我現在講的問題你不能站在你們自己的位置去思考國軍問題第一個我們國軍現在連級的士官長"},{"start":187.537,"end":201.086,"text":"他有第一類戰鬥家級第二類戰鬥家級我們4月1號給他們加了薪水所以有12000或7000元結果你表現很好你資深我讓你升上去當營的市官長市督"},{"start":202.139,"end":221.376,"text":"事情更多 內容一樣 不好意思 你沒有戰鬥家籍所以你的薪水馬上少一萬二 少七千我能怪這些連的市館長不願上去接嗎我不能怪他啊 這是制度造成的反淘汰部長你知道有這個問題嗎是 我有瞭解這個問題會怎麼發生的"},{"start":223.612,"end":242.741,"text":"我想現在正在研議就是說這個士官長的這個分職因為時間的關係就我了解國防部有提出要爭取銀勢都應該也列入戰鬥家級是被採組人士擋下來的"},{"start":243.822,"end":252.938,"text":"這不對啊 行政院的長官這不對我如果聽到的不是正確 請糾正我另外一個例子 我可以舉很多例子剛才我聽到 我自己是屏東六聯隊出來的"},{"start":254.875,"end":279.741,"text":"我們機務大隊沒有戰鬥佳績他要站安官 他要修飛機沒有後勤 哪有飛行所以他沒有戰鬥佳績 不合理啊所以你把8月份提出我們今天質詢這個我們希望行政院負責這部分的長官聽進去我再舉個例子我們的中衛擔任排長 副連長有沒有戰鬥佳績 有嗎"},{"start":282.452,"end":311.542,"text":"我們也是給他加薪的 我們4月1號部長的加薪方案就是第一類戰鬥家級一萬二 第二類七千結果他升官了耶 他把他升到上位那以前大家當然要佔缺啊 佔高缺是好事啊我一直看他們升到像陳建義這個缺啊但是這一升上去 他當了上位有可能到營部旅部做參謀這兩個家級通通沒有了艦隊也有這個事情 少校"},{"start":312.791,"end":327.288,"text":"少校連長我可以領戰鬥佳績中校營長帶好幾個連沒有戰鬥佳績所以少校連長的薪資報酬高於中校部長有這個情形嗎"},{"start":330.157,"end":350.903,"text":"就這個整體的這個新制的一個規劃我想我們隨時都在檢討當中那特別跟委員報告就是說剛剛提到的士官督導長就是說行政院在108年的時候他的意思應該是說希望我們能夠朝分職分等的這個方式來去"},{"start":351.503,"end":371.79,"text":"來去做所以我們現在108年到現在也過好幾年了對對對所以現在我們這個分值分等的這個部分我想我們會來考慮比照美國美國的話大概分六級我現在提的因為今天的時間的問題我沒辦法把全部的問題細項列出來這些問題不解決會造成人力的反逃在資深的不願意戰缺"},{"start":373.284,"end":389.7,"text":"對 所以我們要有一個這個是人力資源的浪費嘛所以我們要有一個整體的規劃所以我跟你講第一個問題就我們的制度所以我們常常講加薪大家都愛但真正內行了解部隊的我寧可提供一個額度讓國防部跟我們的部隊針對各項專長家級"},{"start":392.202,"end":420.219,"text":"把人力配置辛苦的高危險性的透過高額加給把人力配置到比較難招募的而不是齊頭式的加兩萬加三萬那樣子會讓部隊反而產生了逆淘汰第二個我們的邊桩是源頭我們今天在市委拚命的搞招募搞留營提高我們的營舍各方面的待遇還有精神戰力士氣這是對的"},{"start":421.48,"end":437.556,"text":"但是我們邊莊應該怎麼樣重新思考我們原來思考是因為現代化 我裝備現代化了裝備更新了 我邊莊就會更新因是裝備現代化 果是人員變少我舉自走砲 A2 A5到A7"},{"start":439.578,"end":456.209,"text":"從6人編制到4人或者我們的諾克斯級成功級編制200多人我們現在用清巡是90人他就是很明顯我的裝備現代化高度自動化AI化我可以把人員編制往下降所以以前的鷹是裝備現代化"},{"start":456.749,"end":473.748,"text":"如果是邊桩往下降邊桩往下降你招募的那個臨界點當然就往下降嘛你的邊線比那個分母不同分子雖然一樣但是你會變大而且這是合理的變大但是我們現在可不可以把英國反過來我建議國安部去思考"},{"start":474.912,"end":499.253,"text":"我們應該要考慮少子化是一個客觀的現實日本美國北約招募都有問題德國也招不足這是一個客觀的現實所以我們現在在思考我們裝備的時候要把這個納入考量我如何透過自動化無人化現代化的裝備把我的戰力預值我再一次提到這個名詞就是"},{"start":500.342,"end":510.937,"text":"合理的最臨界點低於這個部隊不能出戰的戰力域值把它修到合理的標準我舉例子我們的我們的這個155榴彈砲我們155榴彈砲現在有310餘門每一門滿編9個一個班"},{"start":519.858,"end":534.643,"text":"那他一定有個最小戰力域值可能我六個 砲操少跳兩步我六個就可以操作了但是我如果裝備我先去思考我把想要控制人力編制當作因來思考裝備的話"},{"start":536.038,"end":554.575,"text":"那全世界有很多自走的155榴彈砲三個人就能操作他又可以提高存活率又可以把我們九變三那我原來招募也許是四個我只達標到48%但是我透過裝備的自動化現代化AI無人化往下一掉掉到三"},{"start":555.256,"end":576.43,"text":"我還超標變100多我還可以把人力移到缺源的地方部長你懂我意思嗎所以這是一個邊桩的重新思維把因果反過來想我們一定要去思考我們現在少子化的狀況另外我們在後備的動員的部分我們剛才講邊時我剛才聽到不知道是哪一位長官講的說沒有問題進入緊急狀況之後我們邊時動員就會滿邊了"},{"start":579.272,"end":602.897,"text":"可是我們現在剛好正值我們國家進入裝備現代化戰車 我們現在會淘汰一些CM11 M1 我們M1A2進來了我們的戰機 我們的海馬4 我們很多新的裝備我們現在退下來會操作M60 CM11的裝甲兵將來我鞭石動員的時候 它不會操作M1A2"},{"start":604.634,"end":619.165,"text":"變成你鞭石動員的時候原來具有高專精高專長的人再回來變沒用的人通通去當步槍兵所以應該要現在就要準備我們用兩個禮拜的後備訓練根本無法訓練高專精的人"},{"start":620.134,"end":638.573,"text":"所以怎麼樣利用他還在部隊的時候我用10% 20%讓他熟悉新的專長讓這個後備戰力的眾生他縱使離退了有一天我要鞭石動員他回到部隊可以回到高專精高專長至少他的觀念會比一般步槍兵高否則"},{"start":640.135,"end":658.025,"text":"裝備不見啦我是一個裝甲兵我是一個什麼樣高專精高專長的我回來之後我變什麼都不會我只能把我放到步槍兵上面這個對這昂貴的人力成本上來講是不划算的部長我對這些件我不知道部長有什麼想法"},{"start":658.445,"end":678.143,"text":"是 剛剛委員的指教都很正確我想特別講一下就是說我們現在剛剛提到的就是我們新式的武器進來之後那麼它也許退伍的是比較要操作老式的武器所以我們現在會比較鞭死的動員是比較著重於現在常備的部隊叫鞭死動員那這個部分我剛才講就是常備對"},{"start":679.544,"end":706.036,"text":"我現在會希望我們會希望他們同步退下來我們著重在四年內那援兵歸援衛然後讓他能夠熟裝 熟練這個我剛才講的是因為現在剛好在換裝啦對 那這個換裝的期間之內我們就會考慮到他退伍的當下要能夠去熟悉新式的裝備然後呢 他四年內教召每年教召回來的時候也要讓他去熟悉新式的裝備"},{"start":708.137,"end":736.477,"text":"比方說CM11要淘汰了或者小A機OH58要淘汰了他們離開之前新的專長訓練不可能有訓到他們啦那他們再回來裝備不見了所以這一塊的戰力在我們現在的訓練上面我建議薰吃四哥方面應該要納入考量否則將來的後備戰力的眾生會缺一塊這個問題談不完我今天要建議國防部的就是要思考"},{"start":737.438,"end":763.217,"text":"自動化AI無人化在思考裝備的時候把人力資源現在少子化的狀況納入考量把它列入原因作為邊桩更新然後重新審視我們國軍各單位的戰力最小域值stress hold美軍是有這個然後以後我們在國防委員會看到你們拿出來的表不再是陸海空軍把我們邊線比79 76點多不是而是"},{"start":764.192,"end":782.941,"text":"比方說小到海軍陸戰隊它的最小域值是多少目前邊線比達到多少我們才能知道哪些單位可能缺乏什麼誘因它戰力可能會形成問題所以我建議我們部長可以下令我們相關參謀單位開始去研究我們國軍部隊最小出動的臨界點"},{"start":786.184,"end":803.014,"text":"戰力域值 把戰力域值 把每個單位把它標出來之後我們才知道資源怎麼配到哪一個應該硬處的地方這個給部長做建議所以我們現在正在研析那我想組織的調整要以科技取代人力 火力取代重點這個原則 那我們依照我們貨裝的行程來滾隨時滾動來修訂我們的組織變裝謝謝部長好 謝謝王定宇委員"}]}},{"id":"165357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face80d83d7381025133e72a0011d4bca9f9999b3dda73827680b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:58:13 - 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河丘頭分館"},{"start":194.91,"end":217.323,"text":"而且他那邊放了一顆石頭上面刻寫南島語族考古教學的實習基地結果六月份的時候海峽論壇登場我們的院士也有受邀我覺得我先這樣子說好了我覺得大家到那個地方應該都會很謹慎"},{"start":220.005,"end":234.285,"text":"我就特别看到我们的李仁鬼老师他回来的时候有投稿他的标题他自己写的语汇海峡论坛南岛语的权威就是李仁鬼老师统战意味浓厚"},{"start":235.146,"end":260.243,"text":"不過呢 他很有智慧因為我們認真看了一下他所提供的其實他在論壇的時候 他講了五點第一 兩岸要有正常的交流對大家都有好處第二 自古以來中華是一個民族的大熔爐第三 漢族的語言文化深深影響了東亞和東南亞各語族四 漢族的語言文化也吸收了少數民族的語言文化成分"},{"start":261.184,"end":266.581,"text":"境內各種語族都是由北向南擴散和遷移他說我的總結頗受歡迎"},{"start":269.089,"end":277.095,"text":"因為對方也覺得聽到他們想聽的話就避重就輕但是他回台灣的時候他投稿他說"},{"start":300.01,"end":311.215,"text":"院长你给李仁轨院士打几分我不这方面的专家没有任何方法可以做这个评论"},{"start":313.101,"end":330.853,"text":"我是覺得蠻有智慧的啦那其實統戰其實我們看到像中國他們也要成立職棒嘛那像有一支旺旺集團組的長沙旺旺黑皮隊他的官宣內容呢都寫得很清楚就是要回家回家"},{"start":332.233,"end":349.877,"text":"他官宣也寫著 旺旺誕生於台灣 生長於中國大陸旺旺作為愛國的台灣企業 希望以棒球為載體為兩岸搭起友誼的橋樑平時很多地方都會小題大做的黃國昌委員他就說不用那麼嚴肅看待統戰這個問題如果沒有嚴肅看待 那就很危險"},{"start":355.578,"end":383.417,"text":"所以我觉得其实学术论坛就是论战就像华山论剑一样简单来讲就是用一种很文雅很有素质很有学养的方式吵架争取话语权中央研究院就是我们最高的一个学术机构所以我觉得争取话语权对我们中央研究院的每一位来讲"},{"start":384.352,"end":400.115,"text":"都是代表國家都是非常的重要那我在想我在看到我們的這個夜報上面有一個叫做台灣精準醫療計畫為什麼我特別注意這個因為"},{"start":402.18,"end":427.521,"text":"現在要為漢族來做一個健康照護的一個基礎的一個計畫這是很大型的計畫那在上頭呢他也是說都不斷的寫說這個精準醫療計畫的建立不僅展現漢人族群獨特的基因特色與疾病的關聯更標誌台灣在公共健康領域的重要里程碑好"},{"start":428.422,"end":440.051,"text":"我的意思是說 南島語族在台灣我們都說 你們的院士也說他是南島語族的擴散地 無庸置疑"},{"start":441.007,"end":459.454,"text":"就要有更多的學術的一個論戰那有沒有想要為台灣原住民族做的精準醫療計畫當然有這需要族人要同意我們不論是做任何研究都是要讓受試者要同意所以確實有規劃了"},{"start":461.395,"end":478.082,"text":"這個要請那個TPMI的代表也包括不是特針對那個但是包括在所有台灣各族群人都包括在這個計畫裡面不是針對某一個族群那我想先請教一下就是負責這個精準醫療計畫是哪一位哪一個單位有來嗎來"},{"start":486.84,"end":500.788,"text":"那我先問一個簡單的問題目前台灣原住民的平均餘命低於全體國民幾歲這個我不知道沒有 我是說那位負責醫療的"},{"start":505.042,"end":528.628,"text":"統計所所長楊新洲是有關那個原住民部分因為TPMI計畫的部分目前並沒有直接去詢問是不是原住民但是我們有可能透過記錄的方式我跟你說泰克風靠近一點差8點多歲這就是為什麼原住民可以55歲開始領老人年金是"},{"start":530.958,"end":549.827,"text":"好我要講的是說我希望我們的台灣精準醫療計畫除了做漢人基因我希望也能夠為原住民族來做精準的未來能夠對醫療有幫助那更重要的是我覺得中央研究院作為一個最高的學術機構"},{"start":551.428,"end":567.365,"text":"站稳这个南岛起源就像我刚刚讲的这个论坛就是要吵架的地方用文雅的方式吵架争取话语权那这些学术的论证都非常的重要那我觉得当今对我们来讲这么多的统战的手段"},{"start":568.462,"end":595.775,"text":"我覺得這個部分是中央研究院應該要努力的方向可以嗎非常簡短回答委員就是說TPMI計畫目前是有這樣的potential可以去對於原住民或南島我希望開始著手規劃我希望我下次問的時候你們已經有一些眉目了好不好院長可以嗎謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員院長行政官員請回答"}]}},{"id":"165356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face5ea3b376ac6d01c5fa47f864c5dfb45a999b3dda738276807bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:50:37 - 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三位長官好先請教兩位兩位女士這個今天有個題目統籌分配稅款所以有剩345億來分配可是實際的情況我們很快就刪除了"},{"start":39.881,"end":45.182,"text":"離島條例要改這個財務法16條是3離島要支付這個2.5%就220億所以實際上只有剩125億啦沒有345億啦我這樣算法對吧 那個部長這樣講對嗎"},{"start":61.666,"end":82.152,"text":"委員因為16條11除了離島當然也有本島這個整個分母的問題所以會有345億沒有辦法做分配是這樣子但離島221億是法定的2.5%如果用計算如果你把它變成分母把它調整的話它大概就是221億吧這個對吧本島是225離島是12119"},{"start":91.335,"end":107.352,"text":"李導要再給他兩百二十億啦一百二十一百二十還兩百二十一百二十可是我們算都是兩百二十你們算每次就算得跟我們不一樣奇怪勒 你把我少算這麼多"},{"start":109.247,"end":114.412,"text":"跑啦 就算你對好不好也沒有345啊 也剩下200多而已啊對不對 這個我比較關心的喔卓院長不斷的說年底要送出行政院班的才化法請問財政部你送給行政院沒有"},{"start":131.743,"end":156.241,"text":"財政部已經開過試試會那都有大的架構什麼時候可以送給財政部 行政院什麼時候 我們近期送什麼時候可以送 什麼時候問你問 什麼時候可以送近期已經送了 已經送了但是因為那個內容還需要再進一步整理我知道內容 我沒問你 你已經送了好 已經送了喔那我就問主計長"},{"start":159.298,"end":180.014,"text":"你剛才這樣說我嘴角全破 說我這家你贊這樣喔我贊就我贊 我請問你現在台灣的工資 平均工資多少錢平均薪資平均薪資大概是四萬七左右平均薪資四萬八八 四萬你講得這麼客氣四萬七八啦平均多少"},{"start":187.861,"end":201.48,"text":"四萬八啦 不是四萬一啦齁四萬八啦 我跟你講啦齁但是今天就主席英明排這個題目三分之二領不到這個錢"},{"start":203.365,"end":212.853,"text":"所以你要看的不是平均薪資你的薪資一年一千萬啊 金控 董事長 總經理你不要急 你不要急喔要看中匯數 中匯數只有三萬多而已啊三萬多啦 所以沒有想像過二華站 吐華站三萬多其實辛苦啦 還是辛苦啦所以貧富差距非常的嚴重"},{"start":231.528,"end":236.41,"text":"非常嚴重 靠什麼呢 最好的方式就是稅制來 我們看第二張 莊部長我幫你統計了一下 黃帝河一稅減少了133億代表在央行 副總裁你就有角色 那個土地產可以清回的"},{"start":254.824,"end":262.267,"text":"那個央行副總裁這個角色喔黃帝河一歲少了133億 政交稅少了5.5%但是 銀索稅增加了4800多億這什麼意思我們的產業很賺錢"},{"start":272.812,"end":292.527,"text":"銀索稅做很多 站腳 但是呢 集中在AI概念股你看股票市場就好啦 大部分漲的都是AI概念股啊非AI概念股跌的都比漲的多啊 很清楚來看啦 對不對所以今年到現在為止是負的馬拉斯0.2我就先問副總裁 先問副總裁 來來來 副總裁"},{"start":299.092,"end":305.876,"text":"這邊那個數據做一個說明 銀索稅的佔角是4881 增加715不是增加 增加715總數是4881 增加700多 總數4881也是很多啦 因為其他都減少來 副總裁 我就問你"},{"start":323.246,"end":334.565,"text":"黃帝合一減少了133億代表房地產不好嘛這時候 你的第七波的信用管制有沒有考慮要鬆綁一點 有沒有"},{"start":336.735,"end":363.626,"text":"那個報告委員我們在上一次理事會的時候我們也的確做了一點點調整啊怎麼調整我們每一次的理事會之前我們都會去檢討當前的房地產政策我們在下一次理事會我們會做一些內部的檢討所以進一步的鬆綁是可以預期的是不是這個我們要等理事會開會才知道上一次有沒有鬆綁一定"},{"start":366.033,"end":388.948,"text":"上一次開會有沒有鬆綁一點上一次有啊上一次我們對那個我們的換屋的那個從一年改成18個月然後我們也放寬了一些就已經確定不會有第八波的信用管制了是不是目前沒有這個都是由理事會來決定目前沒有嘛那我再回到財政部的莊部長"},{"start":390.919,"end":406.996,"text":"健保署在衛福部打你的主意啊說鼓勵加租金加利息你知道有人現金鼓勵最多的領多少錢你知道嗎不要講名字幾十億吧有沒有"},{"start":412.575,"end":416.838,"text":"這個個人的資料我們沒有個人資料我沒有講名字啊我所知道是幾十億啊幾十年前就幾十億現在更多啦一個人就領幾十億的現金鼓勵要課要課他們啊你不要課這個純鼓足而且他憑什麼"},{"start":435.297,"end":439.52,"text":"衛福部憑什麼要求你把這個稅的資料給他做一個統計 攬傘部長啊 你聽好以後喔如果這個要做的話等於他成立第二個國稅局喔建保署就變成第二個國稅局喔因為你要把股利加租金加利息要大於兩萬 這要攬傘現在的補充保費是救援課稅 沒問題"},{"start":464.634,"end":469.219,"text":"對不對 但是你這個Lamsam就要經過你啊你睡 你就要給這個衛福部啊他侵占你地盤啊 你要講話啊你要反對啊"},{"start":477.113,"end":486.122,"text":"你有沒有反對我問你你有沒有反對報告有關補充保費這個部分目前來說會是暫緩然後衛福部會重新再來思考他要跟你討論啦對不對你要反對他等於當然會有跨部會來做一個討論因為這個我再講一遍這是三個把它加總年度加總這只有你才有的資料"},{"start":503.066,"end":507.229,"text":"他怎麼可以來佔你的地盤呢他變成第二個國稅局啊對不對 你地盤被人家瓜分了 你都不知道對不對 你要大聲講話拍桌說反對 不可以這樣子除非修法修法當然可以 對不對我們是反對對純苦族這樣子的剝削因為他已經教了嘛 現在目前已經教了啊"},{"start":528.717,"end":534.219,"text":"目前已經交了你還進一步交這沒有道理好這個你可以請回了我們問問副總裁那個部長先不要先不要走來來來部長等一下來兩位一起聽說台美關稅確定了差不多確定了但是呢美國要求我們投資3500億美金到5000億美金副總裁這會不會動到我們的外匯存底"},{"start":558.991,"end":564.475,"text":"那個報告委員因為整個案子我們我們也還沒有定案所以我也不知道最後那你如果要投資美國會不會動到外匯存底我就問你"},{"start":570.547,"end":590.483,"text":"外匯存底是央行自己在保管運用的那會不會影響其實是我們在看我們在外匯市場有沒有做很大的調節你要看當時候的外匯市場的供需情況吧今天我是廠商我要投資美國我用台幣跟你買美金就動到你的外匯存底啊難道不是嗎那要看央行有沒有進去干預啦你們會進去干預嗎我們看市場的情況"},{"start":597.03,"end":615.304,"text":"這個部長啊 你有沒有聽說這個確定了要投資3千億美金到五千我想這個有關台美關稅談判我們有行政院的經貿談判小組在持續進行那最後的一個結果我想在適當時機談判團隊會問三千億美金是什麼概念就10兆新台幣以上"},{"start":618.291,"end":637.175,"text":"然後我們的size比韓國也不如比日本也不如為什麼我們投資金額要比照韓國跟日本日本五千五韓國三千五為什麼要比照這樣子太敲得起我們了最後一個小問題問一下副總裁你再講一下現在你的外匯存底的配置有沒有大幅的改變有沒有"},{"start":646.104,"end":651.165,"text":"你說外匯存底的改變有沒有大幅改變因為我們主要持有的還是以美元計價的為主有八成接近八成差不多八成有沒有買一點黃金跟加密貨幣目前沒有目前都沒有買我跟你數字你看全世界其他國家的央行平均的配置美元46"},{"start":673.712,"end":700.891,"text":"黃金20%歐元小於20%給你當參考那個報告委員那個其實你的資料是平均的其實各國央行的差異還很大的什麼意思各國央行持有譬如說美國德國義大利他們那種傳統的國家他持有黃金的數量是以台灣來講持有美元的資產美元計價的資產大概全世界第一喔我們占八成全世界第一喔對吧"},{"start":702.204,"end":702.684,"text":"謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"165355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facec64606ae503f4f6f8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda738276807bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:53:26 - 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可是他如果他不知道資源呢所以這個資源我們要做得更多讓大家知道他也可以利用喘息服務那第二個呢是對照顧者本身的支持因為這些路經常很漫長所以長期以來會產生壓力的累積啦所以我們就這幾年特別著重在"},{"start":187.766,"end":203.034,"text":"家庭照顾者的支持据点包含他的心理的协谈 咨询还有照顾技巧的指导还有支持方案有些人可能不知道所以部长可不可以我们再多广宣目前大概已经"},{"start":205.215,"end":232.973,"text":"是不是可以定期调查主动关怀的作业请卫福部在两周内我们现在把它纳入在我们服务员就是我们去做这个长照服务员也同时去筛检出它有没有高风险我接着要问这个是昨天我也对家庭照顾价制度去问劳动部长他明确的说需要卫福部来协助做处理评估不同的照顾者不同的家庭合理的照顾时间跟需求到底是什么所以想问部长"},{"start":234.014,"end":247.915,"text":"針對各類長照跟家庭照顧長照跟照顧家庭的一個需求去做評估衛福部有沒有做有沒有定期的是給勞動部甚至有沒有跟勞動部之間有橫向的一個聯繫"},{"start":250.057,"end":266.605,"text":"這個部分我們再來做這個詳細的評估要麻煩部長因為他昨天因為要完整的照顧體系的價這個價我覺得關鍵在於是兩部會的一個合作那因為"},{"start":268.085,"end":290.539,"text":"從我們看到這個從慌亂到穩定就長照家庭他去找資源然後長輩住院找資源然後返家使用長照要聘僱移工這些這大概都要20到30天那不同的照顧者可能會有不同的需求在所以我們希望說衛福部在這邊可能要把這一塊能夠清楚的讓我們的"},{"start":291.504,"end":312.471,"text":"勞動部知道那以方便我們未來再推長照假的時候那才有辦法去訂出來跟委員說明當然目前這個在公務機關是有這個家庭照顧假它是併入在市價裡面去計算可是那7天當中還不夠我們剛看到是20到30天那到底這個"},{"start":313.631,"end":335.872,"text":"怎麼去設計它我們來研究不過我們現在積極在加強的就是無縫轉弦把它無縫銜接不論是出院的準備縮短長照資源可以進來的時間我知道你們很努力部長昨天我接到一通罕病兒的家長的求助電話"},{"start":336.613,"end":354.053,"text":"孩子罹患球形式肌肉萎縮症家長知道美國的基因藥太貴了現在只能用副作用比較低的類固醇治療他跟我說在中國治療比台灣更便宜50萬台幣問我該怎麼辦部長你建議我怎麼回答"},{"start":355.77,"end":378.08,"text":"這個當然是這樣就是說以現在這個這個球星是這個肌肉萎縮症而言我們查了一下是目前當然還沒有這個藥證目前台灣是沒有藥證那我們來這個search看看所以我就想這個看其他的國家就是我們要找比較具有這個HTA就是醫藥科技評估的"},{"start":380.422,"end":400.682,"text":"這個國際組織的報告比如說像英國的NICE啦或者是加拿大澳洲等等這些國家的報告我們來看看這個科技評估的報告如何他的效果因為這高價的藥我剛提過也是要經過嚴謹的這個醫療科技評估的那你們預估啦只要是有明確的效果像"},{"start":402.303,"end":425.831,"text":"之前这个陈昭寺委员也秀出了一个AADC那个基因治疗那个也是个罕病那么那个那个药呢这个药价也是在后来我们也是会纳入是主要也是要完整的评估它的效果115年预估115年还能够纳入多少新药还有里边有没有针对神经退化性疾病的药"},{"start":428.169,"end":455.725,"text":"我們115年 今年是大概181億那明年的話呢 健保這邊是192億在外加這個公務預算還有20億大概也是200多億所以又比今年又會再成長差不多30億左右那我們過去大概5年的成長率大概是10%所以以這樣的規模我們是覺得應該是足以來納入更多的這個罕病的新藥"},{"start":456.365,"end":475.666,"text":"因為如果不會真的需要補這個20億的公務預算我相信跨黨派都會支持最後就是想問一個兒童篩檢的問題這幾天看到一個新聞讓人家非常難過一個父親同時要面對妻子罹癌 孩子罹病那個孩子到一歲多才因為基因篩檢才知道他罹患罹患罹病"},{"start":476.667,"end":501.449,"text":"所以我想問衛福部有沒有規劃要納入公費新生兒的篩檢項目因為科技都進步了我們是不是要與時俱進的能不能把健保先把健保給這些寒病的孩子來做新生兒篩檢新生兒篩檢我們目前21項公費裡面18項都是屬於寒病那至於還要不要再擴大那也都是要經過醫療科技譬如像這個剛剛提的SMA這個"},{"start":504.211,"end":516.318,"text":"脊髓神經萎縮肌肉萎縮症的這個已經評估完了所以明年會納入在這個我覺得應該要考慮增加對那其他我們都是一步一步會去檢討部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝林委員接下來請林淑雯"}]}},{"id":"165349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face512561b1045114bc5cb08f7d303ca8f4bff109ec81674948744b430f128716a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:36:30 - 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所以3月份統計的76.9也有含151的"},{"start":236.516,"end":261.673,"text":"有含EWE嗎 有啊有嗎 含4600可是數據 因為EWE是從資料裡面沒有含EWE的啊你這個是分開來算的你本來這個2.3%的EWE的數字跟你全經的數字裡面不是在這裡面啊沒有 整體的邊線比就有含從3月論的時候"},{"start":263.514,"end":291.089,"text":"到現在來論的整體的編寫名在3月都有含義務役的人數到現在也有含義務役的人數你回答一下好不好委員好 跟委員報告就是說我們統計今年是76.9是含義務役的4956元那今年到現在義務役是4600元那我們今年整體志願役增加人數到10月31號是"},{"start":293.97,"end":319.057,"text":"2325元這是實際增加志願役人數就是我們之前採取人性化的管理流營等等所有的措施之後今年從1月1號到現在志願役人力成長了2325到年底還有1000餘元可以進來我們省省樂觀的評估那你認為是有提升的嗎有提升確實有提升確實那你再詳細的數字再給我好不好是我們會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":319.437,"end":342.424,"text":"那另外就是本信引用號角響起這個驚叫片的經典台語你們是欺騙敵人還是欺騙長官還是欺騙自己那這邊引用美國入侵條例220-1單位狀態報告和部隊登記的一個指標美軍提供的人員現有利參考值"},{"start":345.365,"end":369.365,"text":"在西腕90%到100%但是現在我們是在西山60%到79%僅能執行部分的任務那在這個人員的比例上作戰最低標準中美軍更直接指出在作戰計畫中如果部隊人員限力限有率低於85%"},{"start":371.687,"end":388.397,"text":"那需要延後部署或由其他單位支援但如果低於80%即時裝備期前也不視為即備作戰部署的資格那所以若依照美軍的標準國軍主戰部隊的邊線比"},{"start":392.933,"end":411.369,"text":"屬於C3等級只能執行部分的任務如果是戰士根本連部署上戰場的資格都沒有啊這個顯示缺兵的問題不只是招募量不足而是已經觸及到作戰能力的層級的問題所以部長"},{"start":413.251,"end":429.751,"text":"今天的報告內容顯示全軍編制增加所以編線比呈現下降那國軍實際人員或成長的狀態但是一對照美軍作戰最低的"},{"start":430.992,"end":445.161,"text":"標準是以人員比例來看就知道這又是一個模糊焦點的論述請國軍回答我這個問題來把這一些細表給本席請國軍來訂出一個本席 請問部長國軍的缺額的問題"},{"start":453.809,"end":476.986,"text":"是不是現在馬上採取正確的一個政策的手段那短時間內當然不可能解決但政府告訴我們無時無刻受到武力的威脅所以現在在緊急狀況那是不是 那你有沒有具體的解決的方案部長你來回答一下 剩下15秒"},{"start":478.562,"end":505.385,"text":"剛剛我已經有回答羅委員同樣的問題那我是不是請這個座議事來再補充一下委員好我是座議事市長剛剛委員指導點出來是美軍的戰備等級標準確實非常正確它裡面包含人裝訓有四個評鑑的這個等級那剛剛同我們部長已經有做過的回應就是說我們這個等級是在特定任務特定時間也就是說當作美軍在做作戰部署任務派遣前的鑑定的一個標準"},{"start":505.905,"end":530.233,"text":"那我們如果比照這個樣 我們在戰時同時也有考量就是剛剛部長報的 我們會採取在有敵情徵後明確之後會進行動員 鞭持 並進行臨戰訓練因此部隊的邊線筆會達到滿邊是可以有效去應處我們的防衛作戰任務的邊線筆缺兵的問題趕快解決這是一個解決之道 好不好我會努力來提高我們的邊線筆謝謝 謝謝黃榮委員 各位請回"}]}},{"id":"165347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face0187a1bd37ef1df18ff38efa2589ba08bff109ec81674948ad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:28:19 - 09:40:03","影片長度":"00:11:44","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T09:28:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T09:40:03+08:00","duration":704,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.95471875,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.181593750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.379718750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.29909375,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.617218750000003,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.91221875,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.58221875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.68346875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.73409375,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.80159375,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.21659375,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.60409375,"end":134.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.56159375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.60034375,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.71221875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.63096875000002,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.23409375,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.25096875,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.47471875000002,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.89596875,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.46534375000002,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.08409375000002,"end":318.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.12034375,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.97971875,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.24159375000005,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.70659375,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.31409375000004,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.50784375,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.61284375,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.58659375,"end":388.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.62846875,"end":392.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.09659375,"end":396.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.16784375000003,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.66971875,"end":395.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.30659375000005,"end":405.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.66909375,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.30159375000005,"end":410.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.02659375,"end":408.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.05971875,"end":451.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.59284375000004,"end":428.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.14534375000005,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.84971875,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.46971875,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.43159375000005,"end":434.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.32596875,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.09784375000004,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.11471875,"end":436.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.50159375000004,"end":445.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.42909375000005,"end":452.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.13346875,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.00159375000004,"end":464.09346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.72721875,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.80721875,"end":462.82784375000006},{"speaker":"S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有請史部長我先幫您升官了 趙偉我們在談今天主席之前我想先跟你談一下藥品政策我們兩個都在醫藥界耕耘的非常久我想請問你當一個國際的新藥成功研發上市的時候您覺得台灣都是第幾波引進的"},{"start":28.649,"end":51.583,"text":"过去大概都在第三波左右但是最近我们有一些药已经可以赶上第二波甚至第一波了答案是第三波没有错但是总共也只有四波这个是很遗憾根据台美生技协会的研究台湾是全球GDP第14大经济体但却不是国际药厂他们的首选"},{"start":52.263,"end":57.064,"text":"這個原因當然很多 包括市場小新藥價格偏低 而且還綁了還款協議全球的參考價格會有連鎖效應還有冗長的核價過程我想這些我過去也都質詢過市場小是既定的事實但是我們應該把可以掌握的變數把它做好國際普遍都有所謂的溢價還有藥價差問題但是台灣的藥價差連年擴大我想請問部長這兩年的藥價差是多少"},{"start":81.5,"end":102.786,"text":"現在有在縮小大概差不多在500億左右對啦 部長至少這兩年都700億我們可以再去是很佔藥費很龐大的比率那對新藥引進是莫大的不穩定性雖然說今天我們談到狠藥跟癌藥有公務預算來預注但是就是說對引進的廠商還是有顧慮"},{"start":104.046,"end":107.668,"text":"這個前端價格即便看似合理那中間我們其實還要經過這個還款協議 很多的溢價過程後端還有一個要價差所以健保署說我們增加了預算那其實對他們不是很有感 因為那個錢不會變成一個實收啦"},{"start":119.714,"end":134.736,"text":"這是為什麼台灣要進到第二波很難啊那個部長大概不能拿一兩個案子來處理更別說第一波那我知道這個已經啟動藥品改革政策會議那我想請陳書長你簡單用幾句話說你目前的進度跟方向是什麼"},{"start":136.88,"end":162.67,"text":"委員報告我上任的時候也拜會過委員在這個藥品政策關於drug price gap就藥品政策的藥價差的部分在做縮小那目前也依循時部長在署長任內的政策在今年四月份我們事實上修了兩個法那第二個部分是關於這個醫院跟這個藥品的這個drug price gap這藥價差的部分目前還是謝謝署長因為我很謝謝建保署總算承認有這三個字叫藥價差"},{"start":163.63,"end":188.837,"text":"那藥價他面對他就有金額 真的非常龐大 700億然後超過700億 而且一直在增高不管你怎麼砍藥價 越來越高那這個是一個很大的問題那網路上也有部長 那暫時先謝謝署長部長 你前兩週對於補充保費網路上有很多討論其實我覺得健保長期存在一個問題是民眾 醫藥界 還有政府三方對政策的理解有很大落差"},{"start":189.897,"end":214.862,"text":"所以很多民眾提出了什麼呢政府不該給付罕病藥物 等一下我會講為什麼裡面每天都說是天價另外就說應該提高部分負擔還有政治人物 我先不說他的名字他說部分負擔要提高到200%那就是完全不懂的人才會講出這個話部分哪有200%所以我們都清楚政策的怎麼設定但是民眾不見得理解所以我要講的說新聞常常看到"},{"start":215.982,"end":242.027,"text":"健保納入天價藥品這個標題有點像那個健保署的大內宣那民眾人都不會有疑問 既然健保都要破產那你為什麼這麼貴的藥要納進來呢但事實上健保署會跟廠商進行什麼價量協議嘛 分期支付嘛等等 而且像圖上這個含藥這個新聞跑出來說這個牌價大概是1億但是我們知道經過這個"},{"start":244.648,"end":254.657,"text":"加量協議分期支付甚至有效果財富嘛這個最終的支付價格其實沒這麼高上次那個第一個基因藥品想說4900萬其實沒付那麼多啦部長我們大家都心知肚明"},{"start":259.901,"end":273.548,"text":"但是民眾不知情啊民眾不知情也不會知道這個是由另外一個基金喊要的一個上次我們通過那兩個就所謂天價都是喊要事實上是專款支付啊不會影響其他病人的疾病的這個治療的權益嘛"},{"start":275.049,"end":291.935,"text":"所以我是認同部長你講的說全台灣每個人捐五塊錢不到就可以救一個小朋友 寒病小朋友這些都絕對值得但是我們要讓民眾了解健保的價值這需要社會溝通所以我在跟部長在提醒前健保署李博張署長也指出"},{"start":293.216,"end":316.789,"text":"這個個別總額醫院個別總額實施以後醫院可能不願意禁藥我們知道罕藥是專款我們知道可是對個別醫院總額是可以排除在這不是一般的這個服務費但是因為罕藥價我們又回到藥價差了藥價差有限因為它的管理保存跟處理可能相對是比較更多的精力跟時間那對醫院而言利潤不夠"},{"start":319.25,"end":323.272,"text":"所以他不願意進藥 所以現在已經傳出中部大型醫院 我想你聽過已經用我們藥局沒有備這個藥為由拒絕罕病病人然後把他推到其他醫學中心表示他也是醫學中心所以我想請問署長或部長兩個問題請問你有沒有監控使用高價罕藥救的個案把它轉到別的醫院就診的情況那第二個問題是你有去做各個醫院"},{"start":346.822,"end":367.376,"text":"收治新確診的個案自然的成長跟它歷史的資料比較嗎這兩點就請回答 謝謝好 謝謝委員對我們這個藥品政策相當的熟悉啦那我三點的補充說明第一個我們剛剛提到這些很高價的罕藥事實上我們也都是經過這個醫療科技評估去評估它確實有這個價值那我們才納入所以這並不是說這個"},{"start":376.081,"end":399.473,"text":"為了要宣傳或什麼但是那個價格出來說會怕死人啊那至於在這個但這不是事實啊這個到底我們的這個實際上的藥費是多少這個我們跟廠商之間當然你會說機密但我們很清楚對我們是不好對外去說明我想必須讓民眾知道因為你這樣會嚇到民眾然後又會覺得很困惑說無情又在乎對啊但是因為這個有這個需要Follow這個這個"},{"start":401.354,"end":408.218,"text":"在商业上对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对对"},{"start":428.689,"end":456.882,"text":"喊藥的藥費是排除到我們現在做的醫院個別總額之外所以不影響其他的照顧其他的病人至於剛剛您特別關切有沒有因為我們實施醫院個別總額之後而造成被病人的排擠這個我們有在監測我們有在監測我們統計的今年的4月到8月間藥商朋友最清楚他們的藥整個被送走了喊病的病人他的各個醫院的消長情形"},{"start":457.162,"end":474.322,"text":"我们都有在监测这个是很重要的监测嘛对不对有有有你的目的就整个解决一个问题又跑出别的问题有的我们就会看到说他可能有的是因为医师转了医院之后病人会跟着他走医师转那是另外一个所以每一个这个因为"},{"start":475.203,"end":481.707,"text":"不多啦 我們這四到八個月大概是一萬多個罕病的病 我們都有在追蹤你繼續追蹤好不好 我很關心這個問題那未來健保署是不是可以用白話跟大家說明啊包括這個擠負罕病的那個理由嘛那提高部分負擔的這些理論依據 相關配套可以優先用電視跟這個醫療院所"},{"start":497.616,"end":509.126,"text":"檢明圖卡來對外溝通我跟你講圖卡不是用來攻擊在野黨的圖卡是這個時候政策是非常重要的使用的才能被這個理解那個信任因為為什麼呢因為現在民眾的資料都來自電視"},{"start":513.59,"end":529.383,"text":"跟醫院但是事實上很多這不是在你們的官網嗎或是政治冗長的會議記錄可是他們不看那個啊所以當你在說明的時候你要用非常容易讓民眾明白的方式圖卡來用圖卡用的正圖是要這樣子的我們會加強這個說明"},{"start":531.485,"end":556.358,"text":"對啊 不然大家覺得很矛盾啊你自己付最高要但是事實上我很清楚 實情不是這樣他都是經過很嚴謹的評估的謝謝部長那我10月13號有質詢永豐生理鹹水的這個後續啦我還要追問 請問部長到底你對永豐的裁罰總額 總金額是多少部長你都罰了多少錢我們有去了解啦那這個案子是最後由新北市衛生局裁處了60萬元好 60萬 好 法院依據"},{"start":558.761,"end":575.145,"text":"這是根據違反藥事法裡面的GMP規定我要講的就是說為了這件事去年用了多了三四億以上今年又編了十億要穩定生理食鹽水的供應以至於不要讓準備手術的病人延後治療 耽誤治療我要請問當然署長您上來了您覺得這個裁罰基準合理嗎"},{"start":581.787,"end":597.461,"text":"結果他造成去年月年中發生嘛就多了三四億就今年又補了11億署長您覺得這個裁罰基準合理嗎要不要修罰報告委員這部分我們特別有注意到對於因為這樣子特定的廠商"},{"start":598.362,"end":618.253,"text":"他的供應的我們也希望能夠供應的範圍跟平衡能夠稍微有分攤第二個他的財閥部分我們會不是這個是先有這個問題才從外引進沒有證照的藥品嘛這個問題就是很大這是一個非常大的一個疏失啦那當然署長你要就是讓你再概括承受一下雖然不在你任內監察院報告指出指出"},{"start":619.654,"end":642.781,"text":"食藥署接貨不良品通報卻鮮少啟動無預警的查核以及在整個案件中多處缺失這個我想你看到了也就是說他認為食藥署監察院食藥署監督不力包庇廠商的意思納稅人因為要多花11億來做善後署長那你接貨不良品的你現在的SOP是什麼你的改進重點是什麼有通報至少72案"},{"start":644.577,"end":661.356,"text":"生理實驗水謝謝委員對生理實驗水因為我們的監察院報告我有看過很清楚的針對那個細節每一次的你的SOP你都清楚嗎那要改進的呢因為過去就發生了那你要改進的重點是什麼針對這部分我們監管組去做查場之後後續的"},{"start":662.077,"end":689.298,"text":"平次跟重新去掉他積極的調整的部分我們這邊已經在做了那署長今天我就是兩個問題第一個你裁罰他60萬事實上已經被檢舉很多次了就是通報了很多次不良品然後那個有感染又有雜物在那個那個等於是無菌的這個注射水裡面第二個就是說你未來接到通報如果不反應不處理這就再釀成一次大禍啊所以這兩件事情我會繼續追蹤"},{"start":691.24,"end":695.667,"text":"那也請署長 部長都多留意好 謝謝 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席好 謝謝 接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問"}]}},{"id":"165360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face90a808d1e2c1d1bf8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda738276800385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:02:14 - 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是不是請我們 石部長林委員長部長這個數萬顆芬普尼雞蛋流入市面那你們定調說本起事件是散發個案不會擴大到百分之百的稽查這個市售所有的雞蛋那你們判斷為個案的依據是什麼"},{"start":34.591,"end":45.966,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個過去這七年間其實每年都是列為例行性的後市場的檢驗你們例行性的後市場檢驗的計畫叫什麼名稱"},{"start":51.343,"end":59.226,"text":"這個委員這邊跟您進一步報告我們叫做勤訓隨產品藥物殘留監測計畫這個計畫已經執行幾年了我們從107年到現在107年報告整顧的數量在整體讓委員瞭解107年到114年11月12號107年之前有沒有監測計畫 後市場"},{"start":79.873,"end":94.746,"text":"尤其社會市場監測計畫一直都有我們特別是說含有分普尼的監測裡面的這些殘留所以107年以前沒有監測嗎以前也有監測 也有107年監測的時候因為這是分普尼所以特別把分普尼的監測"},{"start":95.967,"end":114.915,"text":"納進去有4282件每一年大概是400件到800件近年來 像去年是561件所以1107到113年總共有的件數裡面大概合格率是百分之百那今年度是461件 有一件是違規的"},{"start":117.39,"end":138.36,"text":"你們是說過去的抽測百分之百都合格所以你們判斷這是一個個案那署長你回覆說你們抽驗一路走來都是用科學randomizerandom的方法去抽驗出來的結果所以你不會把它變成百分之百的這個抽查"},{"start":139.901,"end":154.336,"text":"因為事實上你們用隨機抽樣去抽都沒問題嘛你是這樣講的嘛所以這件事情如果變成百分之百去抽查這件事情在科學上其實是對不起科學"},{"start":155.919,"end":182.006,"text":"對不起科學 你的意思是這樣子嗎不科學的嗎不是不對不起科學跟委員報告一下就是說按照現在科學的因為按照現在的基準證據這樣子的抽查的你認為全面抽查是不科學的所以能夠確保風險被控制就好了那我現在要討論就是不是這個樣子那我現在問你是說上一次的芬普尼事件是什麼時候"},{"start":183.567,"end":204.168,"text":"上次是106年代那一次的106年對106年他的發生的來龍去脈你清楚嗎那一次的整個調查因為當初是以學者的身份大概有一些些略知一二不是那麼完全清楚但是你知道監察院有調查報告嗎監察院"},{"start":207.426,"end":224.255,"text":"我沒有特別看過那份報告 但我知道監察院有特別講好 那我就跟你講 我現在以下所講的全部都是來自於監察院的講法好了我先講背景 2017年歐洲很多個國家 包括德國 比利時 荷蘭 歐盟發現28個會員國裡面有26個國家 雞蛋受到芬普尼的污染"},{"start":229.918,"end":249.952,"text":"然後呢後來擴散到發現美國俄羅斯南非南韓瑞士香港等等然後發現很多國家連亞洲國家都有了那所以食藥署跟農委會也開始進行監測了也監測了喔調查有沒有受到芬普尼污染然後呢"},{"start":251.226,"end":273.882,"text":"根據監察院發布的調查報告食藥署只抽驗了10件雞蛋樣品而且都是在超市裡面賣場販售的盒裝雞蛋那沒有包含傳統市場也沒有包含零售廠商所以食藥署在2017年的7月8月18號發布新聞"},{"start":275.763,"end":286.043,"text":"宣稱市售蛋品沒有檢出分譜尼告訴大家雞蛋都很安全 這是8月18號的新聞結果隔了兩天 因為只抽查了10件嘛"},{"start":288.013,"end":313.384,"text":"農委會就發現國內蛋機有分譜尼這個污染後續更擴大檢驗發現有44件不合格樣品顯示當時食藥署最初的抽驗過於草率所以後來發現這大問題是去抽查然後不合格率這麼高以後他就開始抽查全國的蛋廠然後8月25號一個禮拜後公佈結果"},{"start":315.205,"end":336.716,"text":"對污染場域的那個氧機場 氮機場進行了移動管制但是到9月14號仍然還有受污染的雞蛋流出農委會的全面抽檢還有後續處理沒有完全的圍堵住那署長 部長你聽清楚食藥署抽驗的件數過少"},{"start":339.998,"end":366.373,"text":"然後就發布說這個市面上雞蛋安全無虞請問你們這一次抽驗了幾件跟委員這邊報告這次其實我們抽的第一波其實是我們委託例行性的抽驗以外你們這個事件發生以後有沒有再去抽驗這個抽驗的時候當初是抽五件中了一件在這一家廠這個是例行性的抽驗對"},{"start":368.4,"end":386.195,"text":"那事發之後然後大家都發現這家廠有問題你在後市場裡面有沒有再去抽過至少抽個看看其他廠有沒有其他問題因為你也是隨機抽的嘛然後文雅之後有沒有在後市場再抽其他的"},{"start":386.835,"end":406.554,"text":"我們這個抽菸其實持續在進行當中以今年的 你知道在2017年發生的時候其實他們在也有例行性的抽菸2017年之前 不是你講你的計畫2018年開始但2017 2016 2015其實都有後市場各種食品安全的抽菸也都有"},{"start":407.52,"end":422.485,"text":"但整個事件發生以後當國家採取這個這個安全措施的時候當時2017年食藥署也在再去抽驗例行性的抽驗之後有再去抽驗抽了10次然後就說安全無虞"},{"start":424.346,"end":440.84,"text":"所以後來 這邊跟委員稍微一點點的報告其實我們已經確定在養雞場內部的畜牧場內部的所以我們跨部會裡面提到的是在所有還沒有出來之前就要驗我們後市場我們會積極的持續的來去做不是啦"},{"start":441.54,"end":466.442,"text":"還沒出來以前要驗這個是源頭把關還沒有出來以前要驗是農業部的責任跟你無關但我現在問你是當整個事件發生以後你到底有沒有去針對市面上到底這個問題是不是一個個案還是有沒有比較大的嚴重的擴散你有沒有進行任何的後市場抽驗"},{"start":468.616,"end":490.2,"text":"跟委員報告一下我剛才提到的是整體的107年的時候呢其實是沒有長期先前的抽驗可是我們現在的陣地我現在都不管你這個啦我現在告訴你我現在要告訴你是你回答我你整個事情發生以後你有沒有做出任何的後市場再抽驗一次"},{"start":492.287,"end":513.744,"text":"我們今年度齁 已經整個驗了461件所以就今年度所以我們在這個樣子的情形之下呢其實是應該是精準的知道是哪裡那在畜牧場端我們其實是持續在跨部會裡面就合作針對這部分那我再把監察院當時的報告再講一次齁"},{"start":515.585,"end":524.467,"text":"當時發生以後去抽驗的實踐然後被認為說這個就宣稱安全無虞監察院約許的時候副署長林金富告知統計學上原則採樣至少要30件這個是發生事情發生之後然後去抽驗的然後呢第一波檢驗完以後三個部會決議要由農委會主政從源頭全面檢測所以"},{"start":545.732,"end":560.856,"text":"這個食藥署就不再去做這個抽驗但是監察院認為重點就是當時為什麼實踐以後就作為依據對外宣布結果實有不當在那時候呢如果看一下當年的新聞一定會覺得如果"},{"start":565.356,"end":588.104,"text":"當時農委會就組了跨部會小組決議啟動24小時全台大抽檢然後一共有15個機場驗出分譜尼殘留然後抽檢數量達到1451件當時的新聞如果食藥署你現在署長你去看你一定覺得說怎麼一點也不科學還驗到這個1000多件"},{"start":590.205,"end":594.04,"text":"但是如果當年沒有全台大抽檢 抽檢了一千多件"},{"start":595.728,"end":621.919,"text":"他就沒有後來後續的比較完善的管理的機制那我現在要告訴你說你認為我們例行性的檢查今年已經檢了幾百件了應該是沒問題了然後你要告訴大家說一天要吃這個100顆才會急性中毒然後每天吃7到8顆才會慢性中毒所以理論上安人民的心是對的但是不能夠只是這樣子講"},{"start":623.28,"end":645.025,"text":"你應該不要再用學者的身份把自己學者的身份拋棄掉不要再高舉著這部科學的說法拒絕更多的管制的手段因為十安五環最重要的上游的這個源頭管制管控的項目源頭的管控重建生產管理加強查驗"},{"start":646.725,"end":653.669,"text":"這都是食藥署責務判斷最該執行的項目然後你動不動就說你叫我再去檢測更擴大檢測這不科學然後你們只針對現在的文雅牧場單一個案加強管理人家會覺得說這個真的是安全的嗎人家也會質疑你說這是不是駝鳥心態那還有媒體指出"},{"start":672.202,"end":696.36,"text":"你們試圖以歷年抽驗4000多例只有一次出問題來化解疑慮然後你剛剛我講的你要吃100多顆才能會急性中毒所以另外一個不具名的毒物專家他們知道署長是毒物專家他講說啊民眾擔心食安的議題不是只有你講科不科學科學的理論抽驗還需要風險溝通"},{"start":699.642,"end":718.367,"text":"所以風險的溝通這一件事情很重要然後盡快的釐清真相才能安定民心嘛而不是說你看你們歷次發生這種事件的時候都便以形式然後屢屢被後續發生的案例打臉打到臉都腫了打到臉都紅了"},{"start":720.942,"end":744.062,"text":"這個過去都是這樣子好那我現在告訴你你認為今年都已經檢驗了幾百件了就最近有問題所以你認為都沒問題了最好如此喔我是認為說你說的最好如此如果還有其他的樣品被其他地方政府抽檢出來那恐怕臉還會更腫"},{"start":745.123,"end":771.706,"text":"所以當時2017年就抽了全抽 抽了1000多批你這個案例你要清楚報告委員報告委員的提醒我謹記在心但是我特別提一下所有的風險溝通其實風險溝通來自風險分析因為你關心我現在是全民關心一定要風險評估Risk Assessment為基礎所以我們會有這麼大的底氣"},{"start":772.987,"end":786.251,"text":"去相信希望能夠去穩定是一個單一的個案以外我們也會積極的去了解因為後續是不是有你們話都不要講得太早部長 一開始你說該事件不是飼料殘留飼養過程中的添加 應該是環境汙染現在證明 對啦 也是環境汙染因為被一送法辦了人家認為是直接分譜你就噴在機織上面啦對 目前的證據是這樣"},{"start":801.015,"end":809.377,"text":"你們在機織上面叫做環境污染嗎我想這部分應該農業部會積極的去懲處跟你們無關所以你可以這樣講所以我要跟你講話不要講太快你們也不是你們業務所管所以你不要去講說應該是環境污染不是飼料殘留不是添加當然不能添加當然不可能是飼料殘留因為咱都知道隔子農機的問題是什麼隔子農機的飼養環境是什麼"},{"start":828.041,"end":839.317,"text":"而他真的就是需要因為葛齒龍雞他能夠生活的環境多大你知道嗎一隻雞終其一生他的一輩子一隻蛋雞他能夠生存的空間有多大你知道嗎比這一張還要小"},{"start":843.848,"end":871.419,"text":"雞隻連要清羽毛連要清除牠身上的寄生蟲都沒有辦法連轉身都沒有辦法中期牠的一生只能吃飼料下蛋而牠的大便就直接在下面骯髒的大便堆了多高就是在那裡蟲業的養殖的人員年紀有多高如果你去看你就知道你不訝異為什麼他們一直使用分譜尼"},{"start":872.81,"end":892.54,"text":"然後為什麼只有環境傾銷還不夠因為雞隻上面很多跳蚤害蟲一走到要死去嘛所以雞都不健康嘛然後所以才會直接噴在上面但是我告訴你全台灣蛋90%都是格子龍雞難道只有一個文雅牧場會這樣子做嗎"},{"start":894.795,"end":913.636,"text":"你相信只有文雅牧場會這麼的離譜嗎老實說我們不知道但是我們相信你還是要科學的方法但科學不是你講說要100顆蛋才會急性中毒我們要的食品安全標準絕對不是急性中毒"},{"start":914.497,"end":933.056,"text":"我們要的食品安全的標準我已經跟你講過也不是說要不會慢性中毒我們為什麼要你來跟我們講說不會慢性中毒不會急性中毒我們要的是你好好的管源頭的管而且政府的管是真的有用有效的"},{"start":934.841,"end":951.693,"text":"而不是你在用學者身份說學院在抽查不科學這樣的講法都不是溝通風險的溝通不是這樣子我一定悉心的去檢討我們的食農教育都告訴我們食品是怎麼來的"},{"start":952.938,"end":976.548,"text":"如果我們知道我們的食物你的格子籠雞的雞蛋的飼養環境是那樣子那麼你就不會覺得很安心所以這是一個機會教育也是一個食品安全教育也是一個農食農教育你要去了解格子籠雞場是怎麼養雞的你就會知道風險高還是低"},{"start":978.784,"end":1006.555,"text":"林委員把相關意見跟農業部做進一步的協調溝通 謝謝委員這個姿態也很重要就不要動不動用學者的姿態然後認為我們閱聽人 認為立委認為人民 認為一般的人都不科學 只有你最科學 是這樣子報告委員 我們會繼續查下去的查到哪裡 我們就驗到哪裡謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝林委員接下來請邱政軍委員來做詢問"}]}},{"id":"165350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face1f12bfb8afa3dd0ffa47f864c5dfb45abff109ec8167494804c117b4160d12fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:39:08 - 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然就是"},{"start":104.028,"end":126.178,"text":"最高跟最低之間就是會有倍數的差距是一定有的但是如果你想想看如果是整體都能夠拉伸的話整體都能夠拉伸的話當然他的希望是說那個高所得的這個拉伸的比例要降低然後低所得拉伸的比例要升高有逐漸在做到如果從你的報告上面來看但是事實上"},{"start":127.588,"end":147.979,"text":"有既定看法的人是不會接受你這樣的講法你覺得呢是 謝謝委員指導但是事實上我們經濟成長是優於亞洲四小龍整個狀況是很好包括我們整個GDP的一個成長都是很好然後我們的一個貧富差距其實在整個裡面算平均的並不是很大"},{"start":148.877,"end":174.228,"text":"如果你從好的方面來講台灣的經濟成長率高然後CPI就是物價指數上漲的比例也是低這樣就是1點多那1點多其實是符合全世界2%的CPI在2%以內1%以上2%以內是一個最好的區間低於1%國際的學者就認為就是通縮了有通縮的危險了那高於2%就被認為是通貨膨脹那我們台灣"},{"start":178.171,"end":200.556,"text":"央行在處理匯率也很嚴謹然後大家也很保守所以說控制在一點多然後政府對於那大宗物資如果國際之間的價格有漲有在很大的變動說我們台灣這邊就是用一些稅收的方式減免他的稅讓他能夠讓這個大宗物資不要漲價這個政策是都有對應"},{"start":202.196,"end":226.263,"text":"但是在這樣的狀況下我們先不講說我們的國民購買力是人家的幾倍光今年預估的國民所得GDP相對比起來GDP就已經勝過韓國跟日本那日本原因當然是因為日幣大幅貶值的原因那我們先不管日本那個原因我們就贏過韓國這樣子也能夠講成說台灣民不聊生"},{"start":227.748,"end":255.149,"text":"這我也不知道怎麼跟他對話因為你如果跟他講說我看到的數字不是這樣他就跟你講說沒有沒有你這個冰冷的數字喔你要沒有溫度所以你們講這個都不可信第二個就是明明我們的薪資成長跟我們的最低工資的成長比CPI還要高然後他就跟你講說沒有喔收入在萎縮喔"},{"start":257.642,"end":276.262,"text":"我假設我的薪資成長是2然後我的CPI是1.5我實質的收入當然是指總數相來看還是有0.5的增加 他也不跟你講他說沒有啊 就是所得都在萎縮啊大家都在貧窮化啊 都活不下去啊"},{"start":277.11,"end":296.32,"text":"跟委員報告我們每次公布的時候都有把那個平均的薪資扣掉實質就是CPI的一個成長的因素然後去算然後平均的一個那個所得然後也有去算每人的然後所以我們扣除以後每人薪資都實際成長是1.87%"},{"start":299.181,"end":320.843,"text":"是啦 但是你這1.87人家跟你說這數字我個人沒有漲薪水啊所以我的扣掉CPI之後我的薪水是在萎縮就是從個人的角度來看事情他永遠有話講但是如果你從總體的整體的數字來看事實上成長然後他就開始跟你講說你那個是冰冷的數字啊我感受不到啊"},{"start":321.843,"end":332.961,"text":"但是我們中位數也是增加的你從統計數字跟他講道理他就跟你講說我不要跟你講這個我要跟你講我的感受所以我是覺得這個事情的討論"},{"start":336.195,"end":360.775,"text":"這很不容易啦但是要繼續大刀闊斧的在往這方面能夠來進步這是更好啦是 我們提供數據給相關的部會來做參考很困難啦 因為為什麼這個最低工資的上漲都只有3%多 4%多因為要考量到經營者啊他一方面講說啊 經營者這個環境很不好啊我們的這個關稅比人家高啊"},{"start":361.636,"end":378.586,"text":"同時他就要求說 那你那個薪資要給人家賬啊那這我也不知道就以經營者的角度要怎麼講經營者說 那我經營者怎麼辦經營者總是企業要能夠賺錢才有辦法維持企業的存在啊那企業的存在才有辦法提供工作機會啊"},{"start":379.727,"end":394.564,"text":"是我們要鼓勵企業加薪但是企業遭遇到譬如相關的一個困難譬如說關稅的一個問題這個部分我們要來協助所以這個部分我在經濟部這方面也編列相當多的預算包括特別預算回過頭來一個感想就是"},{"start":398.722,"end":424.946,"text":"從自己的角度來看事情對自己都要最好對自己政府的照顧永遠不夠那都是需要大政府但當政府的管理或是處罰行政處罰到他的身上說你這個政府這是亂七八糟的你不要來管我啊所以我是覺得基本上人都有這樣的特性講到利益的時候要極大化講到不好的地方的時候你都不要來給我管制"},{"start":426.266,"end":432.71,"text":"賺錢自己本事高啦 賠錢政府害的啦簡單來講就是這樣 又回到這一句啦你請回座 請財政部長部長我要跟你請教你知不知道加熱菸現在已經有兩家可以販售一家是美國公司 一家是日本公司"},{"start":451.312,"end":456.334,"text":"健康風險評估 衛福部已經通過兩家大概有14個品項加熱菸通過了那大概都是屬於專人進口國內的產製部分還沒有通過那菸菌跟菸碎的問題大概是可以得到一部分的紓解因為以前有一些吸脂菸的如果替代成加熱菸你加熱菸不讓它合法化你菸菌跟菸碎是漏掉了"},{"start":473.641,"end":502.695,"text":"那現在既然已經有合法的那價格會比這個原來走私的還要低所以大家基本上我認為大部分會去走合法的路當那個加熱菸經過健康風險評估可以在正常的管道上面去銷售的話那讓稅讓國家納入管理然後稅也可以按正常的來收取我覺得這是一個好的這個是你對整個國家的這個稅捐的部分那你底下有一間研究公司"},{"start":503.717,"end":512.214,"text":"你的菸酒公司設備什麼都已經準備好了現在他就是在跟國健署在申請這個"},{"start":514.152,"end":535.774,"text":"核准嘛就你知道你的菸酒公司遇到的困境你了解嗎了解我們菸酒公司董事長也多次的反應那當然必須要符合衛福部讓他通過健康風險評估我們會積極的去跟衛福部溝通你有跟衛福部溝通嗎有的我們有跟他最近審核多不合理你知道嗎"},{"start":536.995,"end":554.543,"text":"對於你們菸酒公司多不合理他說你們菸酒公司不能夠拿外國這個加熱菸的這些資料健康風險評估來橋接啦所以要用他自己的產品去做人體實驗那沒有得到核准你菸酒公司哪來的產品啊那也沒辦法實驗嘛這顯然不可行嘛那你們財政部為什麼不跟衛福部反應說你這個這麼離譜呢"},{"start":568.155,"end":591.652,"text":"我們也多次有跟衛福部去溝通全人類台灣的人吸加熱菸跟外國人吸加熱菸在健康風險名顧上面是不一樣的嗎那同樣在審查的程序上前年說可以可以這樣子橋接過來那對自己菸酒公司喔我們供股的喔那今年跟他講說不可以"},{"start":593.1,"end":621.64,"text":"那我想請問 現在核准那兩家的這個資料是外國來的還是在台灣做人體實驗的外國 他們都是從外國 只是沒有在台灣那為什麼進口商可以用外國的這個健康的這一些的指標 這一些的實驗然後來做報告就可以通過台灣的廠商 而且是公股的 這不是私人喔全部都是公家的 百分之百公股他說不可以"},{"start":623.295,"end":650.262,"text":"這樣子的審查標準你財政部能接受嗎我想這個部分我們會再進一步跟衛福部再來做溝通你不趕快溝通的話我要再往上去衝了我就跟你講我在這邊為了這個事情我已經講過很多次了這是為了公家的利益跟個人私人無關啦如果你現在看只有日本跟美國的廠商可以在台灣賣加熱煙那台灣的煙酒公司要做加熱煙被這樣子的方式刁難這樣子給它拒絕"},{"start":653.286,"end":670.753,"text":"兩三年後市場都被佔滿了那台灣煙酒公司台灣的煙公司要賣給誰還是乾脆煙酒公司關起來算了應該要有一個合理的標準來做審核對啊那你遭遇到不合理的標準你要據理力爭啊不是說那是衛福部的煙火讓衛福部去處理啊不會好不好加油謝謝謝謝委員接下來我們請賴世寶委員"}]}},{"id":"165345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8edc4592691c93ad5cb08f7d303ca8f4bff109ec8167494810110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:28:40 - 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因為長後一體這個整體的構想上是一個非常正確的那連帶帶動的就是後備部隊它的準則教範跟授訓的教材以及教官的人選可能也要把它並案考慮因為過去我們講授訓很多的教官反正就是"},{"start":205.743,"end":234.113,"text":"从陆院出来或者最后进到三军联系基地再做一个联合作战训练那现在这些过去的布号庄三个新训中心三军联系基地现在这个都不算是后备了就直接兵进来编到陆军里面所以在准则叫饭部分那个是要强化的另外还有一点我们关注问题就是一个战后补充那后备指挥部现在有一些东西还在研议中赶快完成规划健全人力动员"},{"start":235.307,"end":258.31,"text":"暂时处理这个人力补充以外装备也要补充也就是说过去我们都是原额的管制但是装备上可能会不足这个部分提出一个建议另外是不是可以考虑了就说大家既然强调这个平战衣食要人民都要有这个暂时全民皆兵的这种概念上"},{"start":259.111,"end":286.465,"text":"是不是学校可以恢复军训教官的制度这个建议考虑那学生的军事知识培养团队精神同时因为有军训教官的现身说法对学生的加入国军我是觉得这个是有诱因有吸收力所以同样的过去就是说我们在军训课程排一个设级这是一个可以落实全民国防的一个总体目标这个是我提出的建议可以作为考虑"},{"start":287.205,"end":312.621,"text":"那下面一张图我还是要提一下这个马太安西这个大状况了因为9月23号艳色湖溃堤淹的是在马太安西的南部这一次是在河的北边那么这个淹的是什么地方呢就是万荣乡还有这个利民村"},{"start":314.554,"end":338.577,"text":"这个图其实是延续性的我曾经提出建议就是说我们所谓的共同图像不只是暂时整个空情周遭海域事实上有关救灾这个底图是不会变的这是一个三维的图这一次你看中间那个圈圈立民村图就显示出来了它是在马太安西北侧左边"},{"start":339.557,"end":368.638,"text":"那个缺口就溢进去了那整个一鸣村就淹起来了那我们现在去陆军的同仁很多都在第一线救灾也有用这个所谓的TAC系统那既然是用Android系统手机然后可以用Google Map的底图但是我建议跟气象中心做一个很好的联系也就是说有更新的资料的时候因为这系统开放式的就可以摆进去所以他看到的并不是位置图"},{"start":369.218,"end":396.157,"text":"而是一个有完整的救灾的状况那这个中间大家都可以努力也有精进的空间那么Google的图因为有的时候是三个月前的那你另外如果要付钱的话可能有部分的图可以更新这个是可以共同努力的我的建议就是Ether是现在的这个Tech的手机已经到了这个班了是不是"},{"start":397.883,"end":412.744,"text":"未來要規劃建置到按照作戰需求會建置到班到班這個是肯定的可以努力的那這邊也就提醒我們在這個問題上面承平時期災防跟戰情的顯示是一體兩面的"},{"start":413.345,"end":430.911,"text":"那以后有机会我们来提就是一个所谓台湾之盾整体的图像整面资讯的分配但是在这个陈平时期救灾我们的同仁非常积极非常参与但是我们要提供他足够的资讯那这个部分我们提请部长做个参考"},{"start":433.58,"end":454.508,"text":"這個我想軍民共同的一個圖像在災害發生的時候確實是有它的必要性所以我們現在也在積極研討那因為那個災防中心那邊他們有EMIC的這個部分那我想我們這個部分會跟他們來做一個結合這樣好 謝謝各位好 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邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告國軍邊線筆提升之具體方案及因應做法並被質詢宣讀完畢因為我們昨天跟今天是兩天一次會我先介紹在場的委員我們陳永康委員 早"},{"start":1561.395,"end":1589.009,"text":"另外今天由顧立雄部長來率隊來參加那部長因為今天有重要會議事前也提出請假那本席給予准假12點12點的話要離開我們委員會那接下來是副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將常務次長楊基勇權動署署長李定忠"},{"start":1592.408,"end":1615.926,"text":"總督察長是總督察長盧建忠參事石文榮政務辦公室主任孫立芳政治專案局局長石順文軍備局局長林文祥主計局稅計處處長陳偉霆"},{"start":1620.642,"end":1647.885,"text":"軍醫局醫管處處長王玉琦站規司司長黃文啟司規司司長藍靜婷法律事務司的司長吳義聖整平司司長苗慧芬苗司長好像是我們這個房子裡面待最久的"},{"start":1650.3,"end":1670.846,"text":"是 沒關係 繼續沒有關係 請坐好 這個國防採購室主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長劉沛志勤次次次長謝日昇作戰級計畫參謀次長是次長連志威後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔"},{"start":1678.612,"end":1689.455,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長謝俊山訓次是次長郭俊德陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長李慶然後備指揮部參謀長薛淵權縣指部參謀長文念忠"},{"start":1710.745,"end":1737.184,"text":"後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤資通電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥軍情局執行長李永康電展室執行長林振偉廣東大學教育長李承忠中科院院長李士強"},{"start":1740.834,"end":1769.173,"text":"國防部人事室主任陳榮宏總司官長黃峰英總司官長今天有很多意見要請教你基層你比較了解 謝謝本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄率同仁報告國軍邊線比現況提升之具體方案及因應做法並備質詢我們現在請顧立雄部長上台報告"},{"start":1779.811,"end":1805.128,"text":"主席 各位委員先進今天自外交及國防委員會實施邊線筆提升之具體方案及因應作法專案報告承諾各位委員對於國軍人力現況的關切再次表達誠摯敬意與謝忱在少子化趨勢與企業增財等因素影響國軍正面臨招募與戰力維持的嚴峻挑戰"},{"start":1807.027,"end":1830.069,"text":"為推動國軍兵力結構轉型政策與提升招募成效確保人力素質與招募能量是當前國防建設的關鍵任務補充戰力缺口更是落實國家安全的根本指導本案為強化全民國防兵力結構調整方案的重要一環"},{"start":1831.261,"end":1848.623,"text":"其透過本次報告讓大院委員及國人了解國軍人力現況及具體方案並請各位委員指導與支持接續由本部人事參謀次長室劉沛之中將就編憲筆提升之具體方案及因應作法向各位委員提出專案報告"},{"start":1852.947,"end":1877.356,"text":"各位委員大家好我是仁次市次長現在針對國軍邊線筆提升的具體方案以及因應做法專案報告一前言國軍近年受少子化趨勢及企業徵才等因素影響衝擊招募及留營工作為此自願意可安心於部隊服役同時吸引更多社會青年加入國軍穩定人力來源"},{"start":1878.556,"end":1895.033,"text":"就現況分析與具體方案及因應做法實施報告二現況分析為穩定部隊基層戰力本部於今年朝減少人力流失提高流營意願及提升招募成效等三個面向努力"},{"start":1895.894,"end":1923.828,"text":"包括取消休假回报制度开放官兵出国自由行调整志愿役官兵返营时间与恢复常态留职规定等人性化管理措施以及透过精进领导统御改善服役环境创造官兵愿景主动辅导新进人员调整眷籍地服务等留营作为外并检讨有益从军青年限制适度放宽甄选条件"},{"start":1924.628,"end":1941.935,"text":"令今年4月起分别调整志愿疫情务加挤战斗部队加挤战航管加挤电针加挤及网路站加挤等五项新制待遇以提升招募及留营成效以下就各项现况分数如后"},{"start":1943.117,"end":1968.652,"text":"一 人口结构趋势一内政部议政司列馆常备议体会可征一南预判自110年起呈现逐年递减趋势112年可征人数为9万余元首度跌破10万元116年跌破8万元少子化问题日趋严重二 全军人力概况"},{"start":1969.923,"end":1993.261,"text":"统计114年迄今全军编线比为79.2%其中志愿役占76.9%一年期义务役占约2.3%因组织编装逐年调整增加迄今编制数较110年增加1万余元致使国军编线呈现逐年下降趋势"},{"start":1994.542,"end":2015.38,"text":"統計契金 縣元較112年增加3000餘元志願役縣元較去年成長2000餘元三 招募成效今年招募目標包含軍官 士官 士兵合計14000餘元契金招獲軍官 士官 士兵合計14878元招獲率為102%"},{"start":2021.645,"end":2044.697,"text":"較計劃數增加315元令至年底上有志願役士兵射輕第五第六梯合計1371元及預判新訓轉服17個梯次約1000餘元起義年度招貨率可達110%以上經退伏平衡後預判至年底國軍整體邊線可達80%"},{"start":2048.812,"end":2056.48,"text":"市流营成效 国军部班流营标准为76%111年流营率为78% 112年78.5% 113年82%114年军官流营率为88.5% 市官为88% 士兵84.2%"},{"start":2070.714,"end":2078.743,"text":"平均流盈率为86.5%较去年提升4.5%显示流盈政策推动出具成效"},{"start":2080.851,"end":2102.464,"text":"第五,不伺服减少111年官兵不伺服人数为5500余元,112年5400余元,113年5000余元,114年迄今2900余元,较去年同时期减少1591余元,不伺服人数大幅下降"},{"start":2104.619,"end":2112.069,"text":"第六 一年期EWE徵集 內政部預判113年一年期EWE徵集人數為9,127元實際入營人數6,956元 佔邊縣的2.5%"},{"start":2120,"end":2137.266,"text":"一百一十四年预判征集人数一万五千余元实际入营人数八千两百九十一元占先边线比百分之二点九而后一百一十五至一百一十六年边线逐年提升三具体方案及因应做法"},{"start":2138.326,"end":2152.738,"text":"為使志願役專業人才能長留久用現從精進招募作為及提升留營意願等項深入研討以提高招募與留營誘因具體方案及因應做法如下一"},{"start":2153.789,"end":2165.884,"text":"精進招募作為醫生跟校園迄今與全國116所大學及429所高中職學校簽訂招生合作協議並透過大學博覽會敦睦遠航國內航訓開放參觀"},{"start":2171.19,"end":2192.502,"text":"國防自信之旅、儀隊競賽、寒暑期戰鬥營、高中生實彈射擊體驗等活動邀請青年學子參與。115年規劃於全國辦理28場市深化與校園合作招生說明會,藉此宣導各招募班隊特色以擴大招募成效。"},{"start":2193.402,"end":2212.915,"text":"二、媒體宣傳,除簡章、摺頁等傳統宣導手段外,115年規劃增加網路及社群媒體各平台曝光數、捷運燈箱與徹底廣告數量,加強招募目標族群觸及率,提高宣導廣度及力度。"},{"start":2213.902,"end":2242.223,"text":"活動宣導透過地區及例行信等活動結合縣市政府及機關臨里執行招募宣導115年規劃於全國北、中、南地區辦理軍事院校及大學儲備軍官訓練團招生博覽會並結合縣市政府及各機關就業徵才博覽會、鄉里公益活動各項體育賽事辦理招募社攤宣導"},{"start":2243.004,"end":2245.572,"text":"以争取青年学子加入国军行列"},{"start":2247.124,"end":2274.072,"text":"四、軍事院校部隊參訪115年規劃高中職國中學生實地參訪軍事院校與部隊及大型國防資訊之旅等活動並增加大學學生同步辦理藉由裝備產展、營舍、教學設施及環境參觀讓參訪青年學子實際參與部隊軍校生日常生活強化青年學子從軍意願"},{"start":2275.612,"end":2289.816,"text":"五 退伍規劃為照顧官兵退伍後迅速與職場接軌本部與國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會共同辦理介退官兵就業等多項服務與專業機構訓練課程另配合該會課證建置軍民專長轉弦運用平台預於116年1月啟用"},{"start":2299.639,"end":2317.942,"text":"提供个人化服务协助军中专长对接民间职业并提供转职就业服务此项作为可提供社会青年了解加入国军退伍后仍可利用军职专长制社会模组进而吸引更多有志青年投入军旅"},{"start":2318.743,"end":2347.099,"text":"二提升留營意願一士官督導長分級制度士官督導長為單位士官兵最高職務所負管理與職責明顯高於同階級士官長人員臨選均擇優選任足及向上派職為鼓勵升遷意願現正研擬士官督導長分級制度並依各級訂定職務加級以提升士官留營意願二"},{"start":2348.223,"end":2377.504,"text":"提升住用環境品質為提升官兵住用品質推動新安專案加速營舍整建106年迄今執行103案已完工考談營區等88案預計118年前全數完工另以規劃115年至120年執行新展專案優先辦理官兵營舍等新建工程16案持續優化官兵住用環境"},{"start":2378.979,"end":2393.127,"text":"三 整建植物官舍持续整新老旧植物宿舍统计106年迄今已完成整新3349户并新建11案1590户植物宿舍"},{"start":2394.068,"end":2412.759,"text":"已完工5案613戶預計117年前全數完工115年起持續規劃興建陸軍湖口營區植物宿舍等9案680戶提供官兵因植物調整所需住宿空間增加留營意願"},{"start":2413.94,"end":2427.548,"text":"至提高伙食費用因應物價指數提高及提升官兵伙食品質今年伙食費依服務地區不同每人每月調升3487元至5947元較113年增加518元至1168元"},{"start":2435.453,"end":2454.102,"text":"持续依行政院主纪总处食物类消费者物价指数逐年检讨调整以确保官兵时的权益另为体恤官兵夜间执勤辛劳省着消费者物价指数逐年上涨今年值班夜点费由60元调整为100元"},{"start":2455.802,"end":2477.756,"text":"五、辦理理財及急難貸款,為紓解現役軍官、士官、士兵本人配偶及直系血親因傷病、傷臟、災害、育嬰產後護理、長期照護或其他急難原因所需資金以安定其生活、專注戰訓本務,以獲行政院同意"},{"start":2478.396,"end":2507.614,"text":"自一百一十五年起自行推办国军官兵疾难贷款专案齐达官兵安心服役军舰安家的政策要求四 节语感谢大院支持与指导国军建军备战以人才为核心持续精进招募及留营作为鼓励志愿役军人长留久用并吸引社会青年投身军旅其稳固基层部队专业人才确保国军战力有效发挥"},{"start":2508.294,"end":2537.149,"text":"以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝好謝謝謝中將好請回好我們接下來要進行詢答那本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言截止登記那如果各位委員有臨時提案的話請在10點半以前提出我們11點是會議狀況來做處理好我們第一位進行詢答委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":2546.447,"end":2550.832,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長部長請剛才劉沛智我叫成謝忠江 抱歉是 羅遠華"},{"start":2559.99,"end":2582.414,"text":"部長好 部長我們今天要討論的是國軍的這個邊線筆可是我要想先請教的就是說我們剛剛這個專案報告裡面的第四頁有提到一年期的義務役的這個徵集的部分我有看到就是說這資料我在想應該是內政部義政司這邊來做提供的那我有看到就是一年期義務役可徵集"},{"start":2582.614,"end":2600.101,"text":"入營復營服役的這個人數呢從一百一十三年到一百一十六年的預判的這個增級的這人數我們可以看到說一百一十三年的這個預判人數是九千一百二十七人一百一十四年是"},{"start":2601.381,"end":2628.198,"text":"一萬五千兩百零五人一直到一百一十六年的時候呢就會我們有預判是說會高達三萬五千零五十這數字的變化是因為比如說像一百一十六年跟一百一十五年其實數字就有一些蠻大的一個差距一下子跳升到三萬五千零五十那是因為那個時候所有的四個月的這個一五一都已經結束的意思嗎全部都改為應該是說這個大學"},{"start":2631.24,"end":2647.31,"text":"畢業的關係也就是說很多人在18歲的時候不會立即投入重軍就是一物一那應該都是等到大學畢業大學"},{"start":2651.572,"end":2668.951,"text":"我們113年開始然後對94年次之後的來進行這個增兵那採取增兵制以後改採一年級的EWE那對這個114年次之後的話那預判他在"},{"start":2670.331,"end":2682.314,"text":"完成四年的大學之後每一年都有大學畢業生我是說你看這個第四頁他有就是115年有19028我們預判是有這個可以徵集到這些人116年的時候我們就預判有35050這個數字的這個落差對 就是116年應該是那個他94年是大學七月畢業"},{"start":2694.818,"end":2697.903,"text":"7月畢業的116年所以你們是從這個去預估說到時就會有大學畢業是說當年的畢業人數有高達三萬"},{"start":2707.812,"end":2735.751,"text":"5050人他應該在上半年跟下半年在下半年應該會有一個人數的增加這個是不是請這個說明一下因為數字落差有點大報告這些是議政司提供的這些人數那116年以後會穩定的每年大概有5萬到6萬人之間會到部隊來服役這個是議政司的因為116年只有7月畢業所以說只有3萬多人但是117年起"},{"start":2737.592,"end":2740.617,"text":"每年大概都是五萬平均就是五萬到六萬的人會進來部隊"},{"start":2741.772,"end":2766.985,"text":"那說明一下115年的19028人是如何估出來的部分是怎麼回事委員好 我志願是市長委員這個數字是內政部給我們的那它主要是因為我們一年期的EWE是從94年次以後才開始徵集所以115年的畢業生他基本上應該是屬於93年次的畢業生所以他那個時候他是還是屬於4個月的精神訓練役所以我剛剛有提到是因為4個月的那個EWE"},{"start":2767.845,"end":2794.914,"text":"那個結束了因為後來都需要服一年的這一季所以才造成這數字的落差嘛不然單單看這個表的話大家會想說因為前一年跟後一年數字差的非常的高因為93年他們還是服四個月所以他的來源是這樣嘛因為我是看到這數字請教這個那沒問題那市長回答的大概是跟我想像的是一樣的可是畢竟義務役的這個佔邊線比的這個比例其實是不高的"},{"start":2795.454,"end":2807.363,"text":"其實是不高 其實我們真正要來看的其實還是這個是志願役的這個部分那我們可以看到就是說從109年到113年我們邊線比的這個數字變化其實會讓大家做優先的像軍官的這部分從103年的88.68%一直下降到113年的80.88%那我在想會不會114年會比較好一點"},{"start":2823.454,"end":2832.799,"text":"士官的部分也是可以說是年年在下降我們看109年它是從86.21%一直下降到113年的77.97%士兵的部分更是讓人擔心有109年的92.57%一直下降到113年的66.18%"},{"start":2848.786,"end":2860.133,"text":"好那看看114年6月底為止呢也不過只有63.35%那看平均數的話整體平均數我們如果就算是加上這個151喔112年113年其實我們的這個邊線比都不到80%"},{"start":2867.577,"end":2889.086,"text":"尤其是士兵的這部分年年減少所以這部分是不是要怎麼樣來增加誘因讓家家願意來當志願役我剛才看了這個報告國防部是有想要做很多的改善比如說有沒有五項的性質的調整如何促進流營益力"},{"start":2890.507,"end":2911.421,"text":"不適服的部分能不能減少我想大家都有想到這個問題可是這個數字的變化國防部不會擔心尤其是說未來我們還有很多精密的武器要進來我們空有武器可是卻沒有人操作操作人數不足或是維修人數不足像這個部分的話還有什麼可以來做的部分呢"},{"start":2912.526,"end":2926.696,"text":"跟委員報告那個114年的我們的人力的邊線統計到迄今來看的話士兵的整個邊線比應該是到78.6你是說因為我這邊拿到的數據是6月底63.35%所以到現在為止現在11月了所以你們的數字是到什麼時候10月31號為止"},{"start":2939.264,"end":2943.974,"text":"到10月31號為止目前有到78點多了78.6所以我們整體的邊線比才會有79.2"},{"start":2948.607,"end":2971.622,"text":"所以现在我们现在的79.2就对了我们到目前为止的我们的整体的这个国军的变现比是79.2所以还是不到80%如果按照这个来讲的话我们先来看一下这个我有看到这个美军它有一个部队战备等级的这个评估的这个标准"},{"start":2972.162,"end":2987.564,"text":"其實我們不到80%其實是落在他們的標準的C3那C3對他們來講其實就是整體的現有的兵力其實我們是處在資源有不足僅能執行部分任務"},{"start":2989.402,"end":3009.672,"text":"對這個部分的話我們其實是掉在C3我們不到我們只到這個邊緣是不是可以衝一下可以到C2的部分各位報告我想這個美軍的這個他的這樣的一個評估他是用人員裝備跟訓練有三大構面他來評估就是說他"},{"start":3010.851,"end":3029.208,"text":"一個單位要即將在一個特定的時間點去執行一個特定任務的一個整體綜合戰力的一個指標所以他大部分都應該是採公司作戰所以他要去部署去做一個作戰部署或海外派遣的時候的那個特定時間點他做一個"},{"start":3029.912,"end":3039.841,"text":"那我想我們在這裡的話我們當然是希望盡量能夠提升不過平時的時候我們會因應平時的土壤狀況跟危機處理來編成這個戰備應變跟環恐的專責部隊我們會來做一個"},{"start":3047.848,"end":3075.388,"text":"所謂的平衡編組啦以排擠為單位做一個平衡編組跟任務調排那重點當然是這一個評估當然是因為以戰時那我們戰時的時候就會來實行編時跟擴編動員那如果一旦實施編時跟擴編動員的話我們的特別是常備部隊我們就要到達滿編的狀態來去進行這個戰時的這個任務的睡醒所以平時的任務睡醒我們是透過以一個"},{"start":3077.03,"end":3088.68,"text":"這個排擠單位來實施一個平衡的編組跟任務的調派那暫時的時候常備部隊進行編使動員的時候還是要到達一個滿編的狀態去遂行他的暫時任務但這中間還要經過一個訓練然後讓他能夠快速的恢復戰力"},{"start":3096.921,"end":3125.597,"text":"不過無可否認的就是說以現階段來講其實我們的國軍的邊線筆其實還有努力的空間還有很大努力的空間對不對那當然就是說我想我們現在大家都在今天會做這個報告當然也是大家都有對國軍有很大的期待那我想我們逐步的來提高這個邊線筆當然是我們的一個目標特別是我們現在進入到這個"},{"start":3128.001,"end":3153.844,"text":"義務役也一年級升級的一個會逐步的有增加我們的這個戰力然後我們志願役的招募的成效也要不斷的提升然後讓我們的這個變性比不是以80%作為滿足而已我們還應該要再往上提升好 以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員 部長各位請回接下來進行詢答委員 陳永康委員"},{"start":3156.511,"end":3178.037,"text":"再次跟我們同仁宣告那個顧義雄部長有正式請假12點以後有重要政務那12點以後由博鴻輝副部長代理好 我們請陳委員好 主席有請顧部長來 部長請是 陳委員部長早也請陸軍參謀長是"},{"start":3185.722,"end":3211.252,"text":"聽完這個有關今天的報告邊線筆我想大家都在努力那我今天這個所謂提出問題著重在這個後備後備的因為也是一個納入陸軍現在整體的規劃是一個非常重要的一個計畫過去我們後備因為是直接在後備自己那有這個編制上有甲種旅 乙種旅 兵種旅"},{"start":3214.11,"end":3222.789,"text":"早先是7个甲种旅17个乙种旅30个丙种旅就整体的部队总人数啊"},{"start":3223.939,"end":3247.718,"text":"大概达到一定的规范那在前面这个邱部长在的时候把甲中旅的数字提升但实际上是乙中旅的编制移过去现在甲乙丙中旅现在全部都取消了纳入到陆军里面了请问这个旅籍单位的总数是降低了还是编制上这个比例上提升了陆军参谋长您"},{"start":3250.964,"end":3264.567,"text":"向委員報告就是有關於整個後備戰力在我們整個防衛作戰裡面一直是視為重要的一環那我們很務實的去探討先前的整個後備組織的架構後面我們實際上是做了一個務實的檢討我們也有做一些對於一些動員符號"},{"start":3274.429,"end":3282.415,"text":"比如說學校單位可能在暫時是沒有辦法立刻恢復到這樣戰力的我們是有做了一些務實的修調"},{"start":3284.946,"end":3311.685,"text":"所以您講的這個是非常重要因為過去我們所謂的管後旅 管院正後旅還現後旅實際上它都是學校的教官老師如果你把它當作一個部隊真正來動員的話實際上第一個編制不足第二個它的結構性有先天的問題現在把這個問題把它解決了整個移到陸軍去這個我是持正面的看法另外一個就是有關後備部隊因為過去的通訊裝備始終是不夠先進"},{"start":3314.167,"end":3320.649,"text":"那這個部分陸軍把後備移進來以後請問在通訊裝備在投資建案上面有沒有一個積極的做法"},{"start":3321.779,"end":3345.777,"text":"這一點也向委員報告那事實上我們也有一個就是提升後備戰力的一個特別的預算那先前也在執行當中那這個不管是有關於它的武器乃至於通信裝備還有包含到所謂的戰鬥各裝我們現在都是一併的把它適同常備部隊的需求來納入建案和籌購"},{"start":3347.919,"end":3373.948,"text":"從政策面來講就是說我們會朝向長後一體的一個方向來努力是 因為長後一體這個整體的構想上是一個非常正確的那連帶帶動的就是後備部隊它的準則教範跟授訓的教材以及教官的人選可能也要把它並案考慮因為過去我們講授訓很多的教官反正就是"},{"start":3375.709,"end":3404.059,"text":"从陆院出来或者最后进到三军联姓基地再做一个联合作战训练那现在这些过去的布号庄三个新训中心三军联姓基地现在这个都不算是后备了就直接兵进来编到陆军里面所以在准则叫饭部分那个是要强化的另外还有一点我们关注问题就是一个战后补充那后备指挥部现在有一些东西还在研议中赶快完成规划健全人力动员"},{"start":3405.276,"end":3428.258,"text":"暂时处理这个人力补充以外装备也要补充也就是说过去我们都是原额的管制但是装备上可能会不足这个部分提出一个建议另外是不是可以考虑了就是说大家既然强调这个平战衣食要人民都要有这个暂时全民皆兵的这种概念上"},{"start":3429.059,"end":3456.433,"text":"是不是学校可以恢复军训教官的制度这个建议考虑那学生的军事知识培养团队精神同时因为有军训教官的现身说法对学生的加入国军我是觉得这个是有诱因有吸收力所以同样的过去就是说我们在军训课程拍一个射击这是一个可以落实全民国防的一个总体目标这个是我提出的建议可以作为考虑"},{"start":3457.173,"end":3482.561,"text":"那下面一张图我还是要提一下这个马太安西这个大状况了因为9月23号艳色湖溃堤淹的是在马太安西的南部这一次是在河的北边那么这个淹的是什么地方呢就是万荣乡还有这个利民村"},{"start":3484.52,"end":3508.537,"text":"这个图其实是延续性的我曾经提出建议就是说我们所谓的共同图像不只是暂时整个空情周遭海域事实上有关救灾这个底图是不会变的这是一个三维的图这一次你看中间那个圈圈立民村图就显示出来了它是在马太安西北侧左边"},{"start":3509.525,"end":3538.587,"text":"那个缺口就溢进去了那整个一鸣村就淹起来了那我们现在去陆军的同仁很多都在第一线救灾也有用这个所谓的TAC系统那既然是用Android系统手机然后可以用Google Map的底图但是我建议跟气象中心做一个很好的联系也就是说有更新的资料的时候因为这系统开放式的就可以摆进去所以他看到的并不是位置图"},{"start":3539.187,"end":3566.1,"text":"而是一個有完整的救災的狀況那這個中間大家都可以努力也有精進的空間那麼Google的圖因為有的時候是三個月前的那你另外如果要付錢的話可能有部分的圖可以更新這個是可以共同努力的我的建議就是Ether是現在的這個Tech的手機已經到了這個班了是不是"},{"start":3567.848,"end":3582.274,"text":"未來要規劃建置到按照作戰需求會建置到班到班 這個是肯定的可以努力的那這邊也就提醒我們在這個問題上面承平時期 災防跟戰情的顯示是一體兩面的"},{"start":3583.294,"end":3600.88,"text":"那以后有机会我们来提就是一个所谓台湾之盾整体的图像整面资讯的分配但是在这个陈平时期救灾我们的同仁非常积极非常参与但是我们要提供他足够的资讯那这个部分我们提请部长做个参考"},{"start":3603.025,"end":3629.833,"text":"是 這個我想居民共同的一個圖像在災害發生的時候確實是有它的必要性所以我們現在也在積極研討那因為那個災防中心那邊他們有EMIC的這個部分那我想我們這個部分會跟他們來做一個結合這樣好 謝謝各位好 謝謝好 謝謝陳永康委員 各位請回接下來進行詢問委員黃仁委員"},{"start":3641.584,"end":3643.748,"text":"有請部長 謝謝主席來 部長請部長早"},{"start":3653.493,"end":3679.77,"text":"我們針對這個國軍邊線比偏低以嚴重影響國軍的戰力那部長上次在本席在上週二總質詢的時候就針對國軍官兵缺額的問題提出的一個質詢當時因為時間有限所以無法能夠詳細的來詢問那當今天再一次的來詢問"},{"start":3682.557,"end":3705.865,"text":"本席看了今天的報告對比你上週的回答發現你在總執行的時候回答刻意的有一些錯誤的一些引導當時本席問你在主戰部隊的邊線比你就說無法無法提這個提供主戰部隊的邊線比那當時本席問你這個"},{"start":3712.318,"end":3722.202,"text":"在這個過程裡面只提供全經最新的資料是92.2%剛剛你也在跟羅委員也講了79.2%但是比去年三頁的96.9%的提升為2.3%沒有去年今年 抱歉"},{"start":3743.137,"end":3770.547,"text":"提升到2.3%但是這表示提升是政策成效那結果今天的報告顯示這2.3%是義務役的數字根本不是政策成效的以政策成效無關所以你們看一下這個數字是不是有些錯誤的引導那再者就是部長"},{"start":3772.208,"end":3796.986,"text":"不要用這個數字避重就輕這個很多事情是不可取這顯示對於解決國軍面臨的嚴重的問題你不要一直想說要怎麼解決但是問題是怎麼樣來解決不要矇混過關部長上次回答你說79.9%"},{"start":3800.509,"end":3822.614,"text":"可是79.2可是今年的3月76.9%的提升2.3跟數據完全是相反的部長你再一次的回答這一次是什麼一回事就沒有顛倒就3月是76.6"},{"start":3828.37,"end":3831.411,"text":"76.9那現在是79.2這提升的2.3%根本就是151的數字嘛151的數字加起來就是你們所謂的跟委員報告151從113年就開始就有151了是啊"},{"start":3849.62,"end":3868.148,"text":"所以151的加入他在113年開始就已經是列為邊線比的一部分了所以3月的統計的邊線比就有含151提升到2.3但是你們全新最新的資料是79.2%所以3月份統計的76.9也有含151的"},{"start":3876.502,"end":3901.416,"text":"有含151嗎 有啊有嗎 含4600可是數據 因為151是從資料裡面沒有含151的啊你這個是分開來算的你本來這個2.3%的151的數字跟你全經的數字裡面不是在這裡面啊沒有 整體的邊線比就有含從3月論的時候"},{"start":3903.477,"end":3930.915,"text":"到現在來論的整體的編寫名在3月都有含義務役的人數到現在也有含義務役的人數你回答一下好不好委員好 跟委員報告就是說我們統計今年是76.9是含義務役的4956元那今年到現在義務役是4600元那我們今年整體志願役增加人數到10月31號是"},{"start":3933.936,"end":3959.023,"text":"2325元這是實際增加志願役人數就是我們之前採取人性化的管理流營等等所有的措施之後今年從1月1號到現在志願役人力成長了2325到年底還有1000餘元可以進來我們省省樂觀的評估那你認為是有提升的嗎有提升 確實有提升確實 那你再詳細的數字再給我好不好是 我們會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":3959.403,"end":3982.809,"text":"那另外就是本信引用號角響起這個金教片的經典台語你們是欺騙敵人還是欺騙長官還是欺騙自己那這邊引用美國入侵條例220-1單位狀態報告和部隊登記的一個指標美軍提供的人員現有利參考值"},{"start":3985.35,"end":4009.351,"text":"在西腕90%到100%但是現在我們是在西山60%到79%僅能執行部分的任務那在這個人員的比例上作戰最低標準中美軍更直接指出在作戰計畫中如果部隊人員限力限有率低於85%"},{"start":4011.673,"end":4028.378,"text":"那需要延後部署或由其他單位支援但如果低於80%即使裝備齊全也不視為即備作戰部署的資格那所以若依照美軍的標準國軍主戰部隊的邊線比"},{"start":4032.578,"end":4052.353,"text":"屬於C3等級只能執行部分的任務如果是戰士根本連部署上戰場的資格都沒有啊這個顯示缺兵的問題不只是招募量不足而是已經觸及到作戰能力的成型的問題所以部長"},{"start":4053.214,"end":4069.737,"text":"今天的報告內容顯示全軍編制增加所以編線比呈現下降那國軍實際人員或成長的狀態但是一對照美軍作戰最低的"},{"start":4070.958,"end":4085.127,"text":"標準是以人員比例來看就知道這又是一個模糊焦點的論述請國軍回答我這個問題來把這一些細表給本席請國軍來訂出一個本席 請問部長國軍的缺額的問題"},{"start":4093.775,"end":4116.949,"text":"是不是現在馬上採取正確的一個政策的手段那短時間內當然不可能解決但政府告訴我們無時無刻受到武力的威脅所以現在在緊急狀況那是不是那你有沒有具體的解決的方案部長你回答一下剩下15秒"},{"start":4117.964,"end":4145.356,"text":"剛剛我已經有回答羅委員同樣的問題那我是不是請這個座議事來再補充一下委員好我是座議事市長剛剛委員指導點出來是美軍的戰備等級標準確實非常正確它裡面包含人裝訓有四個評鑑的這個等級那剛剛同我們部長已經有做過的回應就是說我們這個等級是在特定任務特定時間也就是說當作美軍在做作戰部署任務派遣前的鑑定的一個標準"},{"start":4145.876,"end":4169.938,"text":"那我們如果比照這個樣 我們在戰時同時也有考量就是剛剛部長報的 我們會採取在有敵情徵後明確之後會進行動員 鞭持 並進行臨戰訓練因此部隊的邊線筆會達到滿邊是可以有效去應處我們的防衛作戰任務的邊線筆 缺兵的問題 趕快解決這是一個解決之道 好不好我會努力來提高我們的邊線筆"},{"start":4171.719,"end":4195.934,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃榮委員 各位請回接下來進行詢問委員是陳俊宇委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":4200.715,"end":4222.22,"text":"部長早部長是 陳委員早首先感謝部長及我們國軍弟兄在這次鳳凰颱風相關的災後搶救還有復建的相關工程我們除了在11號當天的緊急救災以外昨天也投入400多名的兵力"},{"start":4222.74,"end":4243.35,"text":"那經過協調我們今天會再增加600名所以預估今天會超過1000名的弟兄在這個災區那邊來協助我們蘇澳鎮的這個相關負災的工程那也謝謝部長那另外也更感謝部長能夠在昨天這個昨天長親自到這個這個現場這個視察的時候有講到我們那個11號晚上"},{"start":4250.779,"end":4264.672,"text":"我們的AAV拐這個兩棲突擊車不小心去這個碾壓過的民車那院長才是就由部長跟院長各自這個負擔一部的這個賠償金謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":4270.366,"end":4286.425,"text":"這個部長默默承受了今天就這個國軍人力的這個現況和這個相關的問題來請教我們部長這也是穩定我們部隊戰力一個非常重要的一個因素那再次在我們這次這個國防報告"},{"start":4289.004,"end":4314.614,"text":"書當中我們提到整體的這個邊線比目前是在79.2%那在今年底有可能會達到80%但如果再細看招募的這個成效今年度計畫招募的人數已經達標流影的這個政策也有成效那不市府的人數也在下降當中那即便在各項工作都達標的情況下我們志願役的這個人力仍舊不足"},{"start":4315.174,"end":4334.993,"text":"那我想請教部長我們接下來這個編制的總員額還會持續增加嗎那我們所設定的這個招募的員額是不是也應該隨之來調整補上因為這個組織編裝的這個增加以及不適合退伍的情況所造成的這些人力缺口"},{"start":4337.023,"end":4361.357,"text":"我想組織邊桩的一個調整現在是進入我們這個一個隨時滾動的一個狀態因為隨著我們新式武器的一個獲得那還有我們現在所需要的這些各項的這個防衛能力作戰的一個部署那我們會不斷的去檢討"},{"start":4365.379,"end":4368.103,"text":"各軍他們所有的調整現在調整的過程當中"},{"start":4374.045,"end":4401.164,"text":"有些是我們會成為已經計劃內那好在看實際的武器裝備的到了以後我們再實際的變裝成軍這樣子那但是一直不斷的在會在做滾動調整好那國軍在這個招募工作上我們要考量到開拓各種兵源的可能那其中這個官兵再入營的這個方案應該也是其中之一尤其每年有數千名的這個不適合官兵退伍"},{"start":4401.624,"end":4427.086,"text":"那有可能是因為他本身的經濟或是家庭因素那他如果願意再回到軍中來服役對國軍人力的補充也是一項很重要的幫助那我想請教部長我們隨著相關法規修正之後招募退伍官兵再入營的成效如何那審查機制上是否有夠嚴謹能夠確保我們招回來的是合適的人力"},{"start":4428.656,"end":4449.916,"text":"跟委員報告我們首先要說明一下我們對於那個放寬不似乎的這個部分這個主要就是以對象是以他當時因為家個人的因素或家庭的因素而申請退伍的不涉及到品德或者是屬於被太主如果涉及到品德跟太主我們不在我們"},{"start":4450.982,"end":4466.855,"text":"再重新招募露營的這個條件所以他要申請再露營就是屬於不涉品德跟太處這個首先要說明那第二個就是統計契金就是我們3月修訂這個規則以來統計契金大概是379379有379名"},{"start":4473.741,"end":4502.88,"text":"那在這次報告當中我們也特別提到一年期的這個EWE徵集的情況這部分我想詢問的是和EWE一起恢復的這個校選育士制度也就是這個遊兵轉世在去年一共是有350人接受士官的這個訓練稱為下士那也剛好可以補上我們目前最缺人力的這個下士階級來舒緩這個部隊基幹的一個壓力"},{"start":4503.34,"end":4517.881,"text":"那我想請問部長我們已經有多少一年級的這個EUE藝男接受過士官訓練那未來是否會再增加另外這個EUE士官是否已經分發到這個主戰部隊還是仍然留守在這個守備部隊"},{"start":4521.574,"end":4531.181,"text":"從去年恢復徵集一年級醫護基金現在的數字是有550個士兵接受士官訓練以後就能下士550名對"},{"start":4533.925,"end":4558.18,"text":"那這個您剛提到說結訓之後的話現在當然還是優先分發守備部隊那但是他可以依照他的個人意願也可以到主戰部隊也可以選擇到他依照他的個人意願可以選擇到主戰部隊好就依照他個人的意願後續我想隨著整個徵集人數會不斷的在增加那如果超過守備部隊的缺額的時候"},{"start":4559.26,"end":4580.91,"text":"我們再做一個補充到主戰部隊也這樣好 那另外有關這個義務役預官的制度接下來也應該要慢慢的恢復未來部分的藝男也可能會選擇成為部隊管理的一個機幹那國防部隊恢復義務役預官考試的部分目前我們是規劃在2027年"},{"start":4583.271,"end":4608.392,"text":"那在考選的這個制度上會不會有可能會調整那未來我們對於這個EWE預觀人力的這個運用和規劃能夠安排到什麼樣的一個職務是不是也請部長簡要說明一下我們規劃就116年就是剛剛也有委員垂詢就是說116年就是屬於他大學94年次的他剛好在那一年的企業會大學畢業"},{"start":4609.913,"end":4622.746,"text":"所以大學畢業以後我們就恢復這個預官的一個考選那我想預官考選之後我們就會依照我們的研究需求來實施召考這樣子好"},{"start":4623.359,"end":4640.476,"text":"那在官部的這個夜報當中我們也有看到增加這個調整各項專業加級的部分以提升我們招募和留營的一個成效那加級和獎金對於官兵士氣的一個激勵固然是相當必要的"},{"start":4641.556,"end":4668.034,"text":"我們在參酌113年度審計部的審核報告內容當中指出空軍的機務分隊還有修補大隊彈藥維護分隊以及武器掛載的分隊可以支領第二類的戰鬥加急就如同我們螢幕上這個圖表所顯示的很明顯可以看到我們陸軍 海軍還有支通電軍 空軍"},{"start":4671.978,"end":4686.258,"text":"這個數額的部分很明顯的有一個落差的級別但是這個陸軍和海軍飛行部隊所屬的這個勤務單位他們的任務性質和工作內容和空軍雷同並且頻繁的在支援"},{"start":4687.058,"end":4706.897,"text":"目前的這個操演和演訓的任務卻沒有被納入第二類的戰鬥部隊加級的匡列單位而先前我們國防部也有回應本案在109年曾經討論過但是並未獲得最後的核定那我想請教部長倘若工作性質雷同任務繁重的相當"},{"start":4708.399,"end":4714.546,"text":"這個程度 陸軍海軍飛行部隊所屬的這個勤務單位是不是也應該要納入戰鬥部隊的一個佳績請摘要回答"},{"start":4720.826,"end":4742.889,"text":"委員好 委員其實那個陸軍海軍的部分它就是有關於它的那些機務分隊的部分我們已經在今年8月呈報行政院了就是納入第二類的戰鬥部隊加級那目前有人是行政總署在審查中好 已經納入了嗎是 我們的方案是有納入了那這個案子還要經過行政院核定才能生效大概什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":4743.559,"end":4759.293,"text":"我們八月份報到行政院去那目前是任總在會辦 就是在會審相關部會當中好 那也請持續追蹤是 我們會持續掌握好 謝謝部長的答詢那個部長那個賠車子是出於自願還是被迫"},{"start":4763.749,"end":4779.079,"text":"我想院長的意思應該是很清楚就是說不要讓舊代的官兵官兵不要負擔 不需要任何負擔這個我想我們國防部會協調相關單位我們一定不會讓我們的官兵來負擔陳俊永要幫你開"},{"start":4790.063,"end":4816.619,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為當天晚上那個水淹已經把車子淹滅過了他根本就看不見他在緊急要去搶救人的過程裡面開過去的時候才發現到好像是壓到那個障礙物可是他不知道是車子要跟部長您報告這個去支援救災的官兵辛苦了這不能歸則於他了那院長陪一台 部長陪一台這個我覺得是好的發展恭喜謝謝委員"},{"start":4834.264,"end":4846.039,"text":"好 接著我們有請王定宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩總市館長黃峰英黃市館長好 請總市館長"},{"start":4863.456,"end":4889.935,"text":"市官長第一次來我們這邊備詢好 歡迎你代表基層的市官我請教你很簡單的幾個問題麥克風要打開要不然不能做會議記錄第一個我們現在在連籍的市官長市督有的我們會把他提升到贏的市督是選優派上去還是選菜鳥倒楣的派上去原則上當然是選優上去原則上是選優那現況是什麼"},{"start":4893.22,"end":4920.203,"text":"同樣會選優真的嗎是那你知道基層嘛是那連的市官長願不願意去當市都那個贏的市都基本上因為現在戰鬥加急的關係就願不願意他會有這種現象就不願意嘛對所以不願意我這連的市官長一二三等我們現在派一個上去贏喔看起來是變大囉然後現在大家都覺得不想去會派誰去"},{"start":4921.867,"end":4947.252,"text":"包委員通常主官都還是會去勸那些那個資深的幹部去所以變成要接銀市都的要用勸的勸不聽的就倒楣或者是菜鳥對啊這個我沒有怪任何人我待會講制度出現的問題在哪裡那銀市都跟聯市都做的工作一不一樣基本上一樣但是量更大 量能不一樣內容一樣量更大好謝謝總事館長我們請部長"},{"start":4949.943,"end":4952.128,"text":"我剛才提這個問題我們今天的主題是邊線筆總市長你請回我們每次談到邊線筆不足"},{"start":4962.062,"end":4985.85,"text":"我們軍方常提出來就是掃紙化 工作環境 薪資報酬 部隊的管理那我們多講一點還有榮譽感 都在招募上或留營對不對 處理留營率 處理招募 這兩件事情我覺得這也重要 但這是治標 什麼標呢 就是結果它的源頭有幾件事情"},{"start":4986.61,"end":5011.027,"text":"第一個我們的邊莊以及我們的透過新資專長加擠有沒有把人力資源丟到對的地方以及本席上一次就建議我也跟這個劉佩孜中央提過我們軍方要建立一套科學的叫做這個戰力域值也就是threshold最小的臨界點我先剛才講我剛才問市都的事情"},{"start":5013.073,"end":5027.106,"text":"國軍現在有一些制度是謬誤的反淘汰而我現在質詢你不是要給你聽而已我們請行政院的人長財主聽清楚我現在講的問題你不能站在你們自己的位置去思考國軍問題第一個我們國軍現在連級的士官長"},{"start":5031.51,"end":5045.061,"text":"他有第一类战斗家籍第二类战斗家籍我们4月1号给他们加薪水所以有12000或7000元结果你表现很好你资深我让你升上去当营的市官长市督"},{"start":5046.135,"end":5065.349,"text":"事情更多內容一樣不好意思你沒有戰鬥家籍所以你的薪水馬上少一萬二少七千我能怪這些連的市館長不願上去接嗎我不能怪他這是制度造成的反淘汰部長你知道有這個問題嗎是我有了解這個問題會怎麼發生的"},{"start":5067.608,"end":5086.737,"text":"我想現在正在研議就是說這個士官長的這個分職因為時間的關係就我了解國防部有提出要爭取銀勢都應該也列入戰鬥家級是被採組人士擋下來的"},{"start":5087.798,"end":5096.934,"text":"這不對啊 行政院的長官這不對我如果聽到的不是正確 請糾正我另外一個例子 我可以舉很多例子剛才我聽到 我自己是屏東六聯隊出來的"},{"start":5098.868,"end":5123.74,"text":"我們機務大隊沒有戰鬥家級他要站安關 他要修飛機沒有後勤 哪有飛行所以他沒有戰鬥家級 不合理啊所以你把8月份提出我們今天質詢這個我們希望行政院負責這部分的長官聽進去我再舉個例子我們的中衛擔任排長 副連長有沒有戰鬥家級 有嗎"},{"start":5126.448,"end":5155.529,"text":"我們也是給他加薪的 我們4月1號部長的加薪方案就是第一類戰鬥家級一萬二 第二類七千結果他升官了耶他把他升到上位那以前大家當然要佔缺啊 佔高缺是好事啊我一直看他們升到像陳建義這個缺啊但是這一升上去 他當了上位有可能到營部旅部做參謀這兩個家級通通沒有了艦隊也有這個事情少校"},{"start":5156.767,"end":5171.289,"text":"少校連長我可以領戰鬥佳績中校營長帶好幾個連沒有戰鬥佳績所以少校連長的薪資報酬高於中校部長有這個情形嗎"},{"start":5174.132,"end":5197.268,"text":"就這一個整體的這個新制的一個規劃我想我們隨時都在檢討當中那特別跟委員報告就是說剛剛提到的事關杜道長就是說行政院在108年的時候他的意思應該是說希望我們能夠朝分職分等的這個方式來去做所以我們現在108年到現在也過好幾年"},{"start":5199.33,"end":5215.789,"text":"對對對所以現在我們這個分值分等的這個部分我想我們會來考慮比照美國美國的話大概分六級我現在提的因為今天的時間的問題我沒辦法把全部的問題細項列出來這些問題不解決會造成人力的反逃在資深的不願意佔缺"},{"start":5217.268,"end":5233.714,"text":"對 所以我們要有一個這個是人力資源的浪費嘛所以我們要有一個整體的規劃所以我跟你講第一個問題就我們的制度所以我們常常講加薪大家都愛但真正內行了解部隊的我寧可提供一個額度讓國防部跟我們的部隊針對各項專長家級"},{"start":5236.195,"end":5264.192,"text":"把人力配置辛苦的高危險性的透過高額加給把人力配置到比較難招募的而不是齊頭式的加兩萬加三萬那樣子會讓部隊反而產生了逆淘汰第二個我們的邊桩是源頭我們今天在市委拚命的搞招募搞留營提高我們的營舍各方面的待遇還有精神戰力士氣這是對的"},{"start":5265.473,"end":5281.549,"text":"但是我們邊莊應該怎麼樣重新思考我們原來思考是因為現代化 我裝備現代化了裝備更新了 我邊莊就會更新因是裝備現代化 果是人員變少我舉自走砲 A2 A5到A7"},{"start":5283.571,"end":5300.205,"text":"從6人編制到4人或者我們的諾克斯級成功級編制200多人我們現在用清巡是90人他就是很明顯我的裝備現代化高度自動化AI化我可以把人員編制往下降所以以前的因是裝備現代化"},{"start":5300.725,"end":5317.743,"text":"如果是邊桩往下降邊桩往下降你招募的那個臨界點當然就往下降嘛你的邊線比那個分母不同分子雖然一樣但是你會變大而且這是合理的變大但是我們現在可不可以把英國反過來我建議國防部去思考"},{"start":5318.888,"end":5343.223,"text":"我們應該要考慮少子化是一個客觀的現實日本美國北約招募都有問題德國也招不足這是一個客觀的現實所以我們現在在思考我們裝備的時候要把這個納入考量我如何透過自動化無人化現代化的裝備把我的戰力預值我再一次提到這個名詞就是"},{"start":5344.324,"end":5354.915,"text":"合理的最臨界點低於這個部隊不能出戰的戰力域值把它修到合理的標準我舉例子我們的我們的這個155榴彈砲我們155榴彈砲現在有310餘門每一門滿編9個一個班"},{"start":5363.854,"end":5378.655,"text":"那他一定有個最小戰力域值可能我六個砲操少跳兩步我六個就可以操作了但是我如果裝備我先去思考我把想要控制人力編制當作因來思考裝備的話"},{"start":5380.031,"end":5398.258,"text":"那全世界有很多自走的155榴彈砲三個人就能操作他又可以提高存活率又可以把我們9變3那我原來招募也許是4個我只達標到48%但是我透過裝備的自動化現代化AI無人化往下一掉掉到3"},{"start":5399.238,"end":5420.407,"text":"我還超標變100多我還可以把人力移到缺源的地方部長你懂我意思嗎所以這是一個邊桩的重新思維把英國反過來想我們一定要去思考我們現在少子化的狀況另外我們在後備的動員的部分我們剛才講邊時我剛才聽到不知道是哪一位長官講的說沒有問題進入緊急狀況之後我們邊時動員就會滿邊了"},{"start":5423.248,"end":5446.894,"text":"可是我們現在剛好正值我們國家進入裝備現代化戰車我們現在會淘汰一些CM11 M1我們M1A2進來了我們的戰機我們的海馬士我們很多新的裝備我們現在退下來會操作M60 CM11的裝甲兵將來我鞭石動員的時候他不會操作M1A2"},{"start":5448.63,"end":5463.158,"text":"變成你鞭石動員的時候原來具有高專精高專長的人再回來變沒用的人通通去當步槍兵所以應該要現在就要準備我們用兩個禮拜的後備訓練根本無法訓練高專精的人"},{"start":5464.13,"end":5482.536,"text":"所以怎麼樣利用他還在部隊的時候我用10% 20%讓他熟悉新的專長讓這個後備戰力的眾生他縱使離退了有一天我要鞭石動員他回到部隊可以回到高專精高專長至少他的觀念會比一般步槍兵高否則"},{"start":5484.132,"end":5502.001,"text":"裝備不見啦我是一個裝甲兵我是一個什麼樣高專精高專長的我回來之後我變什麼都不會我只能把我放到步槍兵上面這個對這昂貴的人力成本上來講是不划算的部長我對這些件我不知道部長有什麼想法"},{"start":5502.421,"end":5522.119,"text":"是 剛剛委員的指教都很正確我想特別講一下就是說我們現在剛剛提到的就是我們新式的武器進來之後那麼它也許退伍的是比較要操作老式的武器所以我們現在會比較鞭石的動員是比較著重於現在常備的部隊叫鞭石動員那這個部分我剛才講就是常備對"},{"start":5523.52,"end":5549.981,"text":"我現在會希望我們會希望他們同步退下來我們著重在四年內那援兵歸援衛然後讓他能夠熟裝熟練這個我剛才講的是因為現在剛好在換裝啦對 那這個換裝的期間之內我們就會考慮到他退伍的當下要能夠去熟悉新式的裝備然後呢 他四年內教召每年教召回來的時候也要讓他去熟悉新式的裝備"},{"start":5552.11,"end":5580.47,"text":"比方說CM11要淘汰了或者小A機OH58要淘汰了他們離開之前新的專長訓練不可能有訓到他們啦那他們再回來裝備不見了所以這一塊的戰力在我們現在的訓練上面我建議訓師士各方面應該要納入考量否則將來的後備戰力的眾生會缺一塊這個問題談不完我今天要建議國防部的就是要思考"},{"start":5581.411,"end":5605.189,"text":"自動化AI無人化在思考裝備的時候把人力資源現在少子化的狀況納入考量把它列入原因作為邊桩更新然後重新審視我們國軍各單位的戰力最小域值 Threshold美軍是有這個然後以後我們在國防委員會看到你們拿出來的表不再是陸海空軍把我們邊線比79 76點多不是而是"},{"start":5608.186,"end":5626.916,"text":"比方說小到海軍陸戰隊它的最小域值是多少目前邊線比達到多少我們才能知道哪些單位可能缺乏什麼誘因它戰力可能會形成問題所以我建議我們部長可以下令我們相關參謀單位開始去研究我們國軍部隊最小出動的臨界點"},{"start":5630.177,"end":5648.081,"text":"戰力域值 把戰力域值 把每個單位把它標出來之後我們才知道資源怎麼配到哪一個應該應處的地方這個給部長做建議所以我們現在正在研析那我想組織的調整要以科技取代人力 火力取代重重兵力這個原則 那我們依照我們貨裝的行程來滾隨時滾動來修訂我們的組織變裝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝王定宇委員的質詢 部長先請回"},{"start":5662.412,"end":5664.654,"text":"好謝謝我們請馬文君委員進行詢問謝謝主席麻煩請部長來部長請"},{"start":5684.131,"end":5701.058,"text":"部長早部長剛剛有特別委員特別有提到就是說這一次我們在救災的部分官兵救災值得加許那尤其也搖壞了車輛的部分我們也立即做了處理我想這個也讓救災的官兵其實沒有心理負擔然後雖然部長跟院長"},{"start":5702.658,"end":5705.919,"text":"要承擔一些壓力不過我們也看到這一次在光復鄉跟宜蘭這個救災因為剛好提到這個部分就陸戰隊我們派出水路兩棲登陸戰車救災那這兩次救災的時候我們看到我們派出去的它抗流彈的這個外掛式裝甲防護板"},{"start":5723.846,"end":5734.713,"text":"其實都出動了它既笨重又耗油我們為什麼在救災的時候沒有把它拆下或者是派沒有外掛裝甲的這樣的車型它的行動也比較靈活這是一個建議啦這個部分是有海軍要不要來說明"},{"start":5748.491,"end":5760.607,"text":"委員好因為這個當初是我們是以全裝去做這個你救災跟那個越編跟那個展現軍力不一樣會不會依照任務屬性我們做世界的調整這個是我們順帶提出來的"},{"start":5763.251,"end":5771.797,"text":"那現在今天我們討論邊線比的部分部長在今天的報告當中國防部有特別提到國軍不搬流營的標準是76%那我們還特別說明近兩年113跟114年流營率已經比往年還提升"},{"start":5781.403,"end":5786.188,"text":"那不市府的人數也比去年同期大幅減少可是我們可能可以看一下因為本席辦公室近日有接獲民眾的陳情他們有提到基層部隊為了達到國軍部班留營標準的壓力很多官士兵的不市府他們其實因為這個部分是個人意願比較不會受苛責"},{"start":5804.685,"end":5806.226,"text":"可是留營率就會對幹部產生壓力所以很多的部隊為了達到這個留營率跟退役堅強的人員去達成先辦留營後辦不市府的這樣的歪風"},{"start":5821.255,"end":5835.922,"text":"那其中大概就有一些共識跟代價比如說薪水照樣讓他領或者給黑價或者以對外支援的方式長期不在營區的狀況甚至有晉升上街等等這樣子的一個"},{"start":5838.523,"end":5858.981,"text":"這樣子的一個共識所以這個部分我們碰到這樣的類似的狀況因為這個會造成國家損失而且也讓部隊管理會變成鬆弛因為其他人如果我快要借起退休退伍的那他看了大概也會也會很不適之味所以這有沒有防範的措施"},{"start":5862.396,"end":5877.187,"text":"委員好跟委員報告目前我們是還沒有獲得這樣的一個訊息但是我相信我們今天流盈利能夠如此大幅度的降低如果說沒有這樣因為我們會提出來表示有發生這樣的狀況其實之前就已經有發生過了就買回家"},{"start":5879.549,"end":5896.568,"text":"照顾豆浆店的这个案例那为什么最近还会接到这样的呈请如果没有办法立即很清楚的掌握状况我们请提供在近年就是可能近三年四年"},{"start":5897.409,"end":5917.967,"text":"近四年好了國軍辦理流營後又辦理不適服人員的載營狀況請提供點名部支援佐證戰鬥及戰鬥支援加急薪資封錄的這些相關資訊好不好那這些書面資料提供給我們以後再來做一些探討那因為既然有人陳情我想這個狀況是存在的"},{"start":5919.708,"end":5932.829,"text":"我想這個可能要去了解先不要說沒有發生這樣的事情那另外就是這兩年國軍的流盈率在我們的報告裡面還有剛剛提到的就是說我們"},{"start":5934.502,"end":5942.066,"text":"不市府的人數減少流行率提升國防部分析的原因是因為提高了伙食費夜點費然後我們還有提升住用環境品質還有整建植物宿舍還有就是加薪因為你說"},{"start":5952.691,"end":5970.203,"text":"植物宿舍環境品質的改善等等其實過去就做了不是這今年或去年所以很大的一個變動大概就是加薪的部分那加薪可能真的有一些人會受到這樣的因素影響也許會留下來可是"},{"start":5974.285,"end":5979.572,"text":"還有一個很大的因素是因為之前我們也通過修法就是要加薪三萬的這個部分有很多人還在等如果到年底都還沒有辦法還要釋憲我想有很多人就會退了因為包括軍事院校過去在招生的時候其實"},{"start":5993.905,"end":6012.044,"text":"成效其實並不好可是在今年其實也特別好所以我想加薪是一個有效的一個至少是一個因素當然他沒有辦法是百分之百可是這個部分我們也請國防部一定要慎重考量我們接下來談一下我們今年四月份我們這個"},{"start":6014.867,"end":6021.391,"text":"就是一致性的加薪跟我們四月份這個加薪為什麼會造成有一些不同的一個部分會引起一些可能沒有辦法達到我們效果因為剛剛部長也提到還有趙偉其實也特別都有提到這個可能也會造成一些負面的影響我們可以看到志願役勤務加級還有戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":6039.611,"end":6061.031,"text":"我們也看到了這些調整新的調整方案那當時國防部主要是說是少校以下軍官士官還有士兵是作戰部隊的主力要優先照顧我們基層的官兵可是現在問題來了外界不知道的是戰鬥家級其實只有到連級"},{"start":6063.452,"end":6077.977,"text":"我們也接到很多不平的反應他們覺得過去國軍的薪資不論是本縫專業家籍主官家籍都是隨著年資還有階級逐步增加或者依他的專長專業身份給予一視同仁的家籍"},{"start":6081.698,"end":6096.833,"text":"可是現在的加薪方案卻把志願役官兵長久以來一視同仁的這個部分因為只要志願役都是一萬元的這個志願役家籍現在把它改分成三個區塊而且越資深的給越少"},{"start":6097.954,"end":6100.056,"text":"這是一個不正常的現象我們所有看到像公務人員也好或者其他的企業單位也好其實有哪一個家級今天是越資深技術越好學歷越高可是你的家級是越少的"},{"start":6113.73,"end":6123.678,"text":"國防部在調薪以後高階的志願役家級反而比低階少這樣子做是對的嗎因為今天在座也有很多都是上校少將中將都是這些階級我們認為他們做得很差嗎"},{"start":6129.522,"end":6132.165,"text":"可是他們是完全沒有得到這樣的加級那我們所有看到的我們就以聯合兵種營這個部分來舉例好了下轄的各排聯營為例我們看到這一次排長連長因為可以加薪所以還包括輪調到外島的時候還有外島加級"},{"start":6150.743,"end":6158.59,"text":"他們如果在這一段時間其實還有他們還舉了一個例子他們甚至如果可以加薪又可以外島加給其實他們還可以貸款買房可是等到你從外島任期滿了以後調回本島要等待升營長或擔任幕僚的時候你可能就必須要賣房賣車因為你這個薪水幾乎少了兩萬如果從外島輪調回來他少更多這個部分部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":6180.371,"end":6209.343,"text":"跟委員報告我想就如同我們國防部立場就是說我們會不斷的來檢討這個整個薪資待遇的結構那從一個整體規劃的一個角度來去檢討現在的薪資結構的一個合理性與否那不管是士官或軍官那當然也包括士兵等等那我想我們會來進一步的來不斷的來檢討因為各項的一個加級它的總列數量"},{"start":6210.123,"end":6227.653,"text":"非常的多那有些可以兼領有些是不能兼領那所以我們在討論這些的時候呢就會還是要總體的來做一個思考那委員的指教我們也會納入我們後續我們來考量各項的一個佳績"},{"start":6228.673,"end":6231.214,"text":"部長我們先看這個表格因為你剛剛提到的這個部分你們完全沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個改變因為剛剛提到的這個已經造成不公平的現象我們看這個表格它只解決人的問題"},{"start":6243.621,"end":6245.442,"text":"比如說像營聯級像陸軍這個部分其實他大概他的風險是一樣的可是你到像聯級的指揮職這個部分聯長2到3年其實他可以領到的包括戰鬥家級的這些他大概可以領到8萬多塊"},{"start":6260.987,"end":6269.496,"text":"這個還沒有扣除掉他的軍保退府健保薪資所得稅還有伙食費等等因為你如果年資越高越資深的他這個會被扣的越多我們看到這兩個營級指揮職跟這個聯級指揮職他們"},{"start":6276.164,"end":6291.281,"text":"大概差都是八萬多塊他幾乎沒有差別所以像這樣子的一個狀況如果像這樣比如說幹部在軍中努力工作了十多年他升任營長他真的只剩下榮譽"},{"start":6292.702,"end":6295.585,"text":"他如果像這樣子他跟做兩三年大概連長大概領的薪資都一樣的時候他們回去對家人對太太也不知道怎麼交代所以我想一離開這個年級薪水立刻就會甚至至少至少都少了一萬二以上"},{"start":6310.962,"end":6318.126,"text":"所以我想這個是可能要去討論的人力我們在軍隊的人力運用其實最重要的就是長留久用如果像這樣的加薪方案以目前的加薪方案其實剝削感更高而且沒有辦法留人只要時間一到可能大家就離開了所以這個部分我們也希望透過今天大家除了在邊線比因為邊線比我們看到都是平均值"},{"start":6337.657,"end":6356.826,"text":"有很多的部隊你即使給他再多的戰鬥加急你可以調出來看他的邊線比非常低已經低到甚至有風險的疑慮那這個是為什麼你即使已經給他加急了可是他還因為一個人要做兩個甚至三個人的工作所以你給他加急這樣子的"},{"start":6358.807,"end":6386.926,"text":"幼嬰其實也不足以影響他們留下來所以這個我們還是希望可以整體的去考量而不是看基本的數字因為如果這個數字是可以參考的那就不會現在你招進來的多可是退出去的還更多因為像這一次幾乎高達四分之一的人數其實是寧願賠錢要退出去這是一個警訊 謝謝好 謝謝馬文君委員 部長請回 謝謝接下來進行詢答委員 陳冠廷委員"},{"start":6403.117,"end":6405.359,"text":"趙偉麻煩請部長部長請陳偉好部長好"},{"start":6414.997,"end":6439.225,"text":"部長最近又大概是前天吧大前天然後國軍又傳一些相關機敏的訊息外洩那說是上位軍官是缺錢然後要賣情報來賺虛擬貨幣那過去大概24個月間那每一個月左右都會有兩三件情節不一的共諜案件報"},{"start":6440.365,"end":6448.982,"text":"那國防部有沒有針對這些發生案件的動機目的來探究原因就是說我們現在就是做大數據就不是依照個案"},{"start":6451.38,"end":6472.382,"text":"比方說他的犯罪的原因是為了第一個是不是為了金錢還是他是來自於他的ideology他的價值觀他的信仰他信奉某個主義信奉共產主義等等的都有可能還是因為受到了威脅還是因為受到中國的這些女性的這些不正當的關係"},{"start":6473.76,"end":6488.354,"text":"有沒有做一些簡單的梳理我想我們的暫局一直有在做這些相關的分析尤其我們的保防部門是不是可以請他們簡單來講一下大概這種案件的類型主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":6491.38,"end":6511.819,"text":"委員好 我是保盤權署處長這個本案的類型它是在網路借貸 遭網路接觸吸收不是問個案我們現在目前我們跟國安局共有研討就是有網路接觸然後親友親情還有就是他救贖然後地下錢莊的借貸"},{"start":6513.26,"end":6532.079,"text":"等相關的管道然後現在首法我們都要研擬宣導資料像研擬在我們的保防單位去做宣導所以說我們的官兵在這個檢舉反應上的力度是蠻強的對國家認同也蠻深具的所以我可不可以這樣講說主要的還是因為金融的關係而非國家認同的關係"},{"start":6533.2,"end":6550.048,"text":"目前看起來80%以上都是財務的問題財務的問題因為我問這個問題原因是因為在跟這些國外的智庫跟政要在去交流的時候常常會遇到一件他們百思不得其解的事情比方說吳昭憲身邊的共諜吳昭憲身邊的共諜他的薪資是很高的"},{"start":6550.808,"end":6565.847,"text":"那為什麼他會想要做這樣的事情那是跟財務有關嗎還是跟他的價值觀跟國家認同有關我想這個部分國防部因為如果現在聽起來國防部相對單純就是以金融的這個問題困擾貸款為主"},{"start":6568.01,"end":6590.424,"text":"那其他的部會會怎麼樣那當然是大家要一起來檢討可能要跨部門因為我剛剛聽到你們說跟國安局所以這件事情我是希望有一個整體上面的一個分析最好是有一個分析的報告我們才可以知道怎麼去應處因為如果是以金融為主的話那我們應該會有相關的可以做警示可能有些問題出現了之前就可以做輔導"},{"start":6591.565,"end":6613.541,"text":"那如果不是以金融為主而是以國家認同價值觀或者是甚至是被威脅利誘等等其他的因素的話那我們就可以找出並爭之後才能夠有辦法來去做出相應的這個解決方案那部長接下來想要請教一下這個關於中國最新的這個軍事上面的改革"},{"start":6614.681,"end":6639.695,"text":"這個美國的智庫 蘭德智庫最新的分析報告指出現在中共的解放軍正在小規模的實驗推動任務指揮他就是希望給下級有更多的自主權那報告有提到說中共他過去是雖然說是兵力是很眾多但是指揮僵化那也可能是過度集中指揮訓練也不切實際甚至有可能出現腐敗的問題那可能就是像過去就是像蘇聯那樣的狀況"},{"start":6641.636,"end":6661.284,"text":"僵化的體制儘管他們看起來是有很多的這個裝甲車但是只要遇到正式的衝突的時候他可能沒有辦法展現他的這個指揮鏈部長就國防部自己的這個情勢來研判中共現在是否真的有開始嘗試來去做這個指揮的體系的去中央化的這樣的做法不知道您的掌握是怎樣"},{"start":6661.564,"end":6679.25,"text":"我們是有看到解放軍報是有這樣子的一個報導不過我們的評估是認為任務是指揮成功的機組必須要有一個一定的權責下手讓各級部隊能夠充分理解上級的作戰意圖"},{"start":6680.851,"end":6699.679,"text":"各級的指揮官都能夠被適切的授權然後還要能夠信任部署那這個蘭德的報告裡面在10月22號有提出一個報告他裡面也提到說這個共軍要維持集中式的指揮最主要就是因為政治優先他會強調忠誠所以"},{"start":6704.322,"end":6716.517,"text":"這種引進西方軍事指揮的概念包括我們現在也在引進的這樣子的一個所謂任務是指揮或者是區中心化的指管這樣子這些概念的話他"},{"start":6717.9,"end":6744.711,"text":"這個必須就那個過去以來這個以黨領軍或者黨指揮槍這樣的整個的一個一個一個中心這個的一個思想的這種會具有相當的挑戰性會具有相當挑戰性所以我們認為再加上中國最近整肅這個軍隊的高層這個看起來還是以政治忠誠作為一個部隊集中管制的一個最高原則"},{"start":6745.171,"end":6766.961,"text":"所以要能夠 是不是能夠向全軍來推廣我們還是有充滿著疑問但是我們會持續來密駐但目前有聽到的消息是已經開始有做實驗性的推廣可以這麼說嗎我們目前沒有明確的有看到這樣子的一個模式已經到達了各部隊的這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":6772.464,"end":6799.544,"text":"只是看到就是說解放軍他有一個報導他認為說要認為向區中心化這個指揮架構來去重視他這樣子那我想這個部分我們也需要還要再來觀察他是不是真的能夠做因為我們得到這個資訊也是從這個蘭德智庫上面來看到的"},{"start":6800.034,"end":6819.441,"text":"那我還是強調一下就是說如果我們有自主能夠得到中國方面的這些情報的話那對我們未來的這個掌握他們的能力是會有幫助的那單純的依靠一個盟方也是不夠的我們自己就要主動要有這樣的情資的來源"},{"start":6820.281,"end":6842.083,"text":"最近英國跟美國之間本來是都會完全的情報共享的這種狀況可是根據經濟學人的報導英國跟美國之間現在有一些情報是不互相的特別是在跟美洲相關的事務上面所以說這個也是提醒說我們要有自由的情報收集能力來跟大家分享再來就是關於空軍的部分"},{"start":6842.563,"end":6856.234,"text":"那中共的空軍11日他有這一個首次公開他們的無人攻擊11的戰機協同作戰畫面那針對這樣子的這個無人機我們現在掌握是怎麼樣他們的能力"},{"start":6857.419,"end":6878.205,"text":"範圍是怎麼樣簡單的 委員好我們這個宮廷上面所看到的這個畫面在現在這個階段我們認為這個只是一個展示目前為止所看到的以展示的宣傳的這個目的為主因為在要達到一個協同作戰的"},{"start":6879.085,"end":6904.318,"text":"背後的這個各項的基礎科學的基礎是非常的複雜包括美軍也才剛剛開始推出這個會對我們台海有影響嗎還是它是主要的目的不是我們會持續來關注這個部分的發展因為各種可能我們都會列入我們後面持續關注所以包含反制我們也在開始在思考怎麼樣的反制他們這樣子的協同作戰就對了"},{"start":6905.325,"end":6928.31,"text":"我們會持續來努力 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 各位請回好 接下來進行詢問委員 林楚英委員謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":6937.19,"end":6962.145,"text":"部長早 本席很肯定剛剛您在詢答的時候尤其是陳俊宇委員特別上來補充的時候有提到就是有關於現在國軍在協助宜蘭的救災的部分不會讓第一線的官兵承擔這種就是在救災過程中所造成的民間的這些損失那麼這個會有相關的預算尤其是有重要的預算來做協助因為這個部分我相信"},{"start":6963.065,"end":6970.167,"text":"最近這個極度氣候之下極端氣候之下真的台灣還有可能很多的這個災變需要國軍地修第一線的搶救那麼剛剛我們特別都有提到有關於這一次我們報的是這個國軍的邊線筆提升的方案那麼當然除了薪資的部分加擠的部分之外其實本席會認為啦"},{"start":6983.01,"end":7004.705,"text":"今天從軍我覺得榮譽感以及心理上面是最重要的我知道這個題目已經不是新的題目了但是我其實蠻關心的就是對於在野黨的最大在野黨的黨主席鄭麗文去追思所謂的共諜這個部分我必須要講對於蔣中正這一個人他在"},{"start":7005.626,"end":7034.73,"text":"不只是國民黨的總裁我相信對於中華民國的軍人來說他有一定的影響性那麼當王滬寧這種涉台的系統要求學習無時精神而中國國台辦今年特別製作了一個大劇來歌功頌的這個人的時候那麼我要問部長是當今天在野黨的黨主席去對於共諜進行一個追思的動作的時候"},{"start":7035.75,"end":7052.359,"text":"對於國軍的軍心會不會有影響那麼面對這個部分我們先從心態心理來講這算不算是一個心戰跟認知作戰的組合權國軍有沒有因應的方式因為剛剛前面剛好陳冠廷委員特別問到就是有關於當擔任這個國軍當中的共諜的問題"},{"start":7056.901,"end":7069.797,"text":"這個有的時候真的是敵我不分就會因為一時的經濟或者是個人的因素可能就會走錯路所以這樣的一個組合權或是認知作戰部長怎麼看"},{"start":7071.705,"end":7096.735,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是要積極的來防堵這個中國的滲透的攻勢所以財務問題是一個當然敵我的認同也是一個我們重要的一個宣導的事項那國防部會來跟官兵來做一個強化的宣導包括這個保防的警覺跟愛國意識然後"},{"start":7098.915,"end":7122.061,"text":"我想也會透由這個國安聯防的機制跟國安情報團隊的密切合作來防止這個不法的滲透我想這個雙管要齊下一方面要深化官兵的保安警覺跟愛國意識那我們持續也會來結合這些這個相關的情職才急收急報急辦的原則這樣子"},{"start":7123.342,"end":7132.446,"text":"好因為吳石這個人他所造成的傷害喔這個不只是當時他想要顛覆讓中華民國消失讓國民黨消失更重要的是對於國軍當時造成了極大的傷害這個部分我認為有必要以正視聽那我也很開心聽到部長認為說在新防的部分必須要再做更進一步的加強以及認知上面的導正另外一個當然今天我也想問一個問題就是無人機的部隊在"},{"start":7153.016,"end":7174.249,"text":"海軍的部分海陸的部分是今年的1月16號就成立了而部長剛剛我們有特別講到就是有關於軍人的加擠的部分我知道陳俊宇委員也曾經在這裡質詢過您所以無人機部隊到底算不算戰鬥部隊因為當時他提出來的是希望給飛行加擠嘛所以對部長來說以現在整體國防部的考量來說這樣的一個部隊成立之後"},{"start":7180.413,"end":7209.275,"text":"那麼他算不算戰鬥部隊如果算戰鬥部隊的話有沒有要編列所謂的戰鬥加級目前有這樣的規劃嗎部長跟委員報告無人機的本來他就是從戰鬥部隊轉型的是所以他當然應該是屬於戰鬥部隊所以我們在這個部分已經就這一些無人機的入軍的無人機大隊還有海軍陸戰隊的無人機營"},{"start":7210.416,"end":7223.655,"text":"我們認為它是符合這個戰鬥部隊的定義所以我們也已經在8月份報到行政院然後我們研擬就是他們能夠指引戰鬥部隊加緊然後也"},{"start":7225.113,"end":7240.639,"text":"能夠追溯到各部隊編裝核定的生肖日來花給好言下之意就是已經在進行當中而且會往前追溯那麼我也知道其實如果根據國軍志願役服勤的加級表戰鬥部隊其實有"},{"start":7242.099,"end":7265.856,"text":"第一類型跟第二類型第一類型是加擠一萬二第二類型是七千那麼在這個部分有思考到嗎會是報情哪一個類型因為我想其實這個有關於他還是說他們有不一樣的任務的時候會有不一樣的類型這個部分有思考進去嗎有有因為戰鬥部隊的定義就是直接跟敵軍從事作戰部隊或協同組團部隊提供"},{"start":7268.259,"end":7280.659,"text":"這個戰鬥資源所以它有屬於我們會認為它是屬於第一類型的或屬於第二類型的那會分別按照它的任務的性質來做這個不同的一個加級的給予"},{"start":7281.516,"end":7298.771,"text":"好 以下之意就是每一個人的任務不同那麼他既然被編進了戰鬥部隊以他的類型來看是第一或第二好 因為秉席特別提出來的就是我們在強調的是你在有任務再生的時候給予加緊這是一種公平性那麼既然部長跟整個就是相關單位已經有考量進去的話那麼我認為這會是一個"},{"start":7304.056,"end":7322.151,"text":"在不論是剛剛我們前面所提到的在心理素質上面那麼在任務加擠在薪資上面在津貼上面給予他一定的這個部分我覺得很給予肯定那部長有沒有一個時間點現在行政院在核定的部分那麼現在走到什麼樣的一個流程了知道嗎"},{"start":7324.554,"end":7352.368,"text":"我想因為你知道已經年底了那我們當然知道當時因為成立的部分是在今年1月那另外這個9月的時候其實陸軍也成立了無人機大隊那麼當然這都是後續的才成立的先成立的1月已經成立已經編進去了那9月的是後續的但是我知道這個過程中現在還在核定那麼有一個時間比如說現在已經到年底了還是說明年會一起給還是有什麼樣的一個期程行政院的回覆是什麼"},{"start":7353.648,"end":7369.375,"text":"報告委員這個目前就是還是在人總審查中那我們掌握的是人總已經有請相關部會表達意見那我們也有一直在跟人總保持聯繫那人總的意思是說目前各部會的意見還沒有還沒有完全回來給他們那我們還是會持續追蹤掌握"},{"start":7369.935,"end":7386.485,"text":"好那麼我希望本席今天在質詢之後我們也能夠競速因為這個都是當時在提報的時候沒有特別去思考到的嘛那麼既然國防部有想到那麼現在我們也提出來了那我就希望說至少不要拖超過一年至少有沒有可能"},{"start":7389.423,"end":7408.571,"text":"我想我們會盡快 我們會一直持續的來跟人種來保持那個聯繫好 那麼我們本席也會跟人種針對這個部分我們也希望他們能夠在這邊有個答案 好不好是 OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林楚瑩委員 各位請回接下來進行巡大委員徐巧欣委員"},{"start":7422.553,"end":7448.062,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請顧立雄部長部長好那首先今天大家很關心的是這個國軍邊線比較如何提升以及因應的方法那我們呢今天在這個報告裡面我看到一個很奇怪的事情我不曉得這個部長您有看過今天你們自己發的報告嗎"},{"start":7451.672,"end":7466.957,"text":"是 請委員指教我就先問你有沒有看過嘛有吧就是你們今天發給我們的報告你自己有先看過是有喔好那因為我要問啊就是在裡面你們在這個全軍人力概況當中喔你寫到呢"},{"start":7468.598,"end":7496.352,"text":"114年之經那全軍的邊線比是79.2%那其中呢志願役佔了76.9%一年期的義務役佔2.3%但是呢你這種寫法是混用了這個邊線比跟人員組成比例的兩種不同的概念我想要請問一下如果我們單就志願役的邊線比答案是多少"},{"start":7498.926,"end":7526.995,"text":"跟委員報的76.9就目前志願役的官士兵邊線比是76.9分人你的這個總基數是全軍的邊線比其中志願役佔76.9%是那我只我想要問的問題是那你只看到的如果我們在現有人員中齁那這個只有我們看志願役的比例你先撇除義務役的部分因為義務役他來了又走來了又走嘛那"},{"start":7527.335,"end":7551.483,"text":"你只看志願役的部分他的工作裡面他的邊線比是多少我們要知道的是這個因為這些部隊裡面的人他才是我們長留久用那可能20年不會離開的你不要把志願役的數據跟我們EUE的數據放在一起那我想要詢問如果用這樣子的比例去算的話那數字是多少"},{"start":7554.626,"end":7579.674,"text":"剛剛蓮依已經有回答就是自願意的部分就是76.9好我給你看下一張你們真的都不要這樣子唬爛好不好這個呢立法院的預算中心報告裡面其實就很明確的寫了國軍自願意的邊線筆就是說部長我要跟你講你拿全部的然後把其中就是裝進了自願意跟義務意之後你得到的數字會是一個漂亮的"},{"start":7580.512,"end":7588.051,"text":"但是如果你把國軍志願役的軍官士官跟士兵分別的邊線筆所列出來的時候他是長這個樣子"},{"start":7589.71,"end":7608.473,"text":"我們從109年底我們可以看到我在這裡我只講最嚴重的最嚴重的士兵的等一下我們講士官士兵的部分士兵的部分你可以看到這個圖或許有一點點複雜你們仔細看一下士兵在109年底的時候給的這個數字是92.57到114年6月底的時候是63.35"},{"start":7618.783,"end":7625.71,"text":"好那我一個一個來軍官的部分109年底是88.68一路下滑到6月底是81.18士官的部分86.21下滑到78.19"},{"start":7636.656,"end":7656.614,"text":"所以總計來說以士兵的部分來講從109年到現在6月底的數據來說驟降了將近30%這個是來自於立法院預算中心的報告也是向你們提出資料的索取之後得到的結果"},{"start":7657.455,"end":7673.01,"text":"所以我在講的是你們今天提供報告的時候的數據看起來很好但我們要問的是在志願役裡面軍官士官士兵分別的邊線比是多少因為他們的工作也是不一樣的"},{"start":7674.059,"end":7701.953,"text":"那每一個工作的階層它也有它相當的一個它的功能性的存在所以你把所有都換成撒尿牛丸的時候你看起來數據很漂亮但是當你把軍官士官士兵你分別去看的時候你看到從92.57一路下降到63.35這就是為什麼今天大家要討論邊線比的原因所以這部分我希望"},{"start":7702.893,"end":7715.273,"text":"可以去檢討不要每次給我們的數據這麼漂亮但實際上我們基層的軍官他們給我們的反應跟回饋都是一個人做好多人的工作"},{"start":7716.348,"end":7734.83,"text":"所以今天既然我也很感謝主席安排了這樣子一個機會去討論國軍邊線筆的問題但是你們就應該要好好的去重新檢視到底是哪邊出了很大的問題像這個表格就非常的清楚所以部長我想要問一下"},{"start":7735.811,"end":7764.259,"text":"在這個地方是不是我們在邊線筆的處理上面檢視上面不要用混在一起的情況可以針對軍官士官士兵他分別你要提升他的邊線筆你都要用不同的措施才有可能達到這是第一點等一下會給你們回答的時間因為我今天還有一些議題第二個我要講的是空軍空軍每年退伍的人數也是逐漸增加的我們可以看一下"},{"start":7765.7,"end":7786.672,"text":"借其不適滿的持續走高從我們可以看到右邊這個是我們空軍弟兄提前退伍以及其滿不適的情況111年到112年到113年這是我們目前可以拿到的最新數據那呢其滿不適的人數從19到25到34那"},{"start":7793.345,"end":7795.008,"text":"一個是漲了32%再來是漲了36%平均每年漲幅是三成多"},{"start":7802.847,"end":7823.98,"text":"再來空軍部分如果我們先前討論的是F-16V 66架什麼時候到貨嘛那大家很關心但同時我們要考量我們有多少的飛官能夠在貨裝66架的F-16V之後再加上我們本來的機隊有能力有足夠的人數來飛這個飛機"},{"start":7826.942,"end":7850.801,"text":"飛行員短缺的部分我們可以看到其實這個飛行員短缺的部分我們看到這個當然在前一頁這是彭博社的英文這個數據它引用了2011年到2019年竟增加了21位的F-16的飛行員以目前的增加趨勢來說就左邊這一張你可以看一下"},{"start":7851.602,"end":7867.214,"text":"那每一年要增加多少的F16的飛行員除了基本數之外如果只增加了兩到三位左右的話那要再增加大概一百多位那估計要多久的時間能夠完成"},{"start":7867.995,"end":7881.8,"text":"否則即便我們希望能夠貨裝F-16V的66架再加我們原本的戰鬥機然後又有分AB座艙一人座跟兩人座如果我們的飛官的人數不夠的話那我們整體的這個聯軍作戰的時候那買了這麼多的飛機那又要有誰開呢"},{"start":7888.383,"end":7905.653,"text":"所以是不是那我們先請國防部針對我剛剛兩個問題第一個就是我們空軍每年退伍的人數增加的原因以及我們飛行員短缺什麼時候能夠補足這兩個題目給我們一個回覆先跟委員報告我們整個空軍的流營"},{"start":7907.333,"end":7934.583,"text":"因为这个数据您显示的这个数据到113我们跟113跟114年比较的话我们今年的流盈是增加了6.3%所以期满不蓄的人有多少期满不蓄的人总共是800多那也比这是113是800多总共是离的是800多但是我们今年的数字是只有400多比去年还要好了五成"},{"start":7935.003,"end":7964.06,"text":"你講的是整個三年的這個離退人數就全部全部吧我現在只問飛行員而已啊飛行員的部分這個數字這個是飛行員這不是全部飛行員的部分跟您報告我們現在就是這個月的飛行員的邊線比是98.4我們要問你邊線比我要問你的是離退的部分因為你看這個表格嘛因為114年不好意思因為我這邊我沒有辦法拿到數據那這些都是你們提供給我的那既然114年有新的數你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":7965.584,"end":7969.959,"text":"114年提前退伍的人數以及期滿不續的人數 個別是多少"},{"start":7971.743,"end":7999.741,"text":"我們總共是104元到目前為止104元我們兩個是加起來是104元這是不一樣的啊提前退伍跟期滿不續是兩個概念主席不好意思請他回答完這個問題我們就結束請你告訴我114年我們的飛行員提前退伍的人數是多少期滿不續的人數是多少各自是多少請給我這個數字"},{"start":8000.982,"end":8006.289,"text":"我們總共是104下去之後跟你做一個分別的數字但是跟委員報告期滿不續不代表他退伍他只是沒有簽續服役獎金我知道啊但是這個也是一個很重要的數據要做參考用"},{"start":8017.904,"end":8046.958,"text":"因為大家都會去看說如果今天我只要跟你討論期滿補序我就不用提前退伍嘛所以我才說你要分開來看嘛包委還有一個很重要的因素我們會預判人事預判我們每一年離退的人數所以說我們每一年在招生飛行員的時候會補足未來所以說為什麼我們今天可以滿足到98.4邊線比的飛行員的原因也在這裡其實它的總數是並沒有下降"},{"start":8048.621,"end":8072.856,"text":"所以嘛你要告訴我說提前退伍的人有多少期嗎我知道因為我剛剛講完他又另外補充所以我還得再回答他好不好那所以請再提供給我們然後也請注意到因為你現在講的所謂邊線比是你目前的部分那你有考慮到66架的F16V來了之後我們現在飛行員的人數是足夠的嗎"},{"start":8073.636,"end":8079.781,"text":"因為你算起來的話大概需要大概需要我看一下"},{"start":8081.689,"end":8100.025,"text":"大概需要大概100你們算是多少人你們算是需要多少人就是我們F16V整個66架來了之後包含現在的這整體的編裝的話是私下報告的我們編裝下去再跟您報告但是跟委員報告剛剛跟您報告的112年開始就做人事推估包含這66架的飛行員的補充"},{"start":8104.209,"end":8120.234,"text":"好因為很多人都很擔心說我們整體的這個飛行員的人數因為提前退伍離退的人其實是多的這點你還是要多注意好不好是好謝謝徐曉新委員各位請回那接下來訓導委員是萬美玲委員時間4分鐘那個板子不用"},{"start":8133.27,"end":8133.611,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請部長部長請"},{"start":8142.816,"end":8170.015,"text":"是 萬維好部長好我們賴總統上任之後不斷地一直在強調這個國防安全所以對美的軍購也不斷地在增加那除了早應該要交付的66架F16V戰機之外還有許多的飛彈系統等等武器但是如果要達到賴總統宣示的國防預算要達到GDP的5%恐怕未來天購的這個武器系統等等還會持續地增加但是本席看到這些武器"},{"start":8170.555,"end":8191.556,"text":"都一定要搭配訓練有素的國軍才能發揮最大的作用那請問部長我們不斷的去增加軍購武器越來越多越買越多那有沒有可能會出現有武器卻沒有人會用的一個情況我想我們所有的相關的這個武器進來之後都要會做接裝的訓練"},{"start":8192.895,"end":8217.697,"text":"好 但是呢 訓練是一定要的啦但是當你啊 人員不足或是人不夠的時候啊一定是會有這個自然難行的地方啦那為什麼我這麼說呢 其實部長也清楚啦我們來看喔 現在國軍人力喔 從110年到113年啊都呈現的都是邊線比低 而且提前退伍的人數也多喔所以這個問題啊 我相信社會部長不會沒有注意到"},{"start":8218.297,"end":8246.256,"text":"那根據國防部提供給本席的資料我們有看到志願役的邊線比在110年的87.3%那降到來到113年的75.6%但是呢在今年總算是止跌回升那截至10月也來到了76%這是一個好的現象好的發展方向那我們再從國防部所屬的陸海空軍官校國防大學理工管理政戰學院國防醫學院"},{"start":8246.936,"end":8251.021,"text":"從報考跟錄取的人數來看111年我們來看最少最低的2845個人報考那今年不錯也來到了4008人報考錄取率2067人那在現在面臨小死化的問題我們這一些數據還能夠逆勢成長本身要說算是相當的不容易"},{"start":8268.82,"end":8291.702,"text":"那今年開始不論是志願役的邊線筆開始止跌回升或者是相關的軍事院校的報考跟報告人數都增加那部長原因一定有很多有很多大家努力的原因在裡面那本席對於國防部在提升國軍的這個駐用環境也好或者是整建職務宿舍提高伙食費等等還有提高各項的家籍"},{"start":8292.402,"end":8307.37,"text":"這些努力 這些努力本席是肯定的但是呢 不是這些努力就可以去達到剛才以上數字現在越來越進步那本席認為呢 在今年六月份的時候我們立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例"},{"start":8310.351,"end":8329.616,"text":"把志願役的加給有每個月大概是一萬三到一萬五統一調升到三萬這個絕對是一個很大的誘因並且是一個很大的鼓舞所以我們看到在今年這個軍事院校的報名人數報到人數也都創下了新高那所以其實"},{"start":8330.956,"end":8352.267,"text":"我們看到這是誘因之一我相信院長不會說這個一點影響都沒有那從開始這個修法以來其實說真的有很多所謂的異男或者是有準備要投入這個國軍的這個行列裡面不管他本人或家長頻頻的都是跟本席或辦公室來詢問相關的修法"},{"start":8352.807,"end":8375.687,"text":"所以我想這個是起了很大的鼓舞作用但是現在行政院到現在遲遲不肯編列這筆預算部長您是國軍的大家長針對這樣的一個狀況您是不是應該要更來支持我們的加薪那是不是能夠請部長來跟主委院長再溝通一下那把大家的心聲來講出來盡快來依法編列明年為國軍加薪這個部分您能做到嗎"},{"start":8376.659,"end":8384.705,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是從不斷地來檢討這個國軍的待遇然後從整體規劃的立場來調整這個相關的佳績所以才會有從今年四月份開始會有五項的佳績"},{"start":8397.654,"end":8420.095,"text":"剛才本席都說過 你不要拖到我的這一分鐘我只是講 以上的我都肯定但是針對現在行政院還不肯編的這個預算的部分本席希望你能夠拿出一個作為國軍大家的態度那跟這個行政院來建言 跟他反映這個心聲就這麼小一個心願因為我們看到招募國軍真的很不容易"},{"start":8420.555,"end":8437.063,"text":"那但是要留住這個人才更是不容易所以我們好不容易啊我們邊縣比剛剛有講嘛你們今天有提希望在年底拼80%我看按照現在的速度是可以的可是進來以後把它留住這才是更重要的一件事情那如果要把它留住喔我想喔"},{"start":8437.563,"end":8451.235,"text":"我們就要有各項不管是在薪資在環境都要去給他提升所以本席希望到現在為止行政院不肯編的預算您站在市這個國軍的大家長務必跟我們一起把這個預算來爭取到可以嗎"},{"start":8452.456,"end":8476.886,"text":"我剛剛已經說明了本部向來重視這個官兵的福利所以提升軍人待遇在114年向行政院增加了這個五項的佳績那整體的來講我們也持續的會來進行整體的規劃那至於這個您講的這個軍人待遇條例的這個部分那麼行政院有它行政議題這個整體的一個考量那我們基於行政議題的原則"},{"start":8477.666,"end":8502.182,"text":"我們尊重行政對於國家行政議題 但是本席更希望你拿出一個態度堅實的國防建立在穩定的軍隊穩定的軍隊就要留住人才所以我們的態度就是我們會不斷的持續來調整然後來規劃提升軍人的待遇好 謝謝希望您加油 謝謝外美領委員 各位請回我們國軍在過去九年挑釁大概七次到八次"},{"start":8503.183,"end":8527.97,"text":"那4月1號剛調整不管是戰鬥加擠各項專輯那我想條性大家都喜歡但是合法合憲以及符合國軍各項專長加擠人力優適合的配置才是重點另外提醒那個政戰局跟我們人事室今天有一個問題有幾位提到我覺得讓社會釐清一下你們在算邊線筆的時候其實沒有拿EWE去灌水"},{"start":8528.63,"end":8553.723,"text":"一物一是常數 以前到現在都有列入計算去年4000多 今年也4000多 把它拿掉比例根本不變這是一個數學問題我已經在這邊聽了兩三位在提這個問題了那也許你們沒有回答的時間 本席提醒這個部分讓國人了解 邊線比的計算一物一從以往到現在本來就在裡面而去年到今年 我剛才聽到數字如果我沒錯都是4000餘位 所以它不影響那個比例"},{"start":8554.804,"end":8572.26,"text":"以上我建議你們要提出比較妥適的完整說明好 接下來進行尋答委員鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在接下來進行尋答委員 羅廷維委員謝主席 有請部長部長請"},{"start":8582.877,"end":8602.121,"text":"國軍邊線筆是戰隊最重要的一個新指標之一但若長期偏低不僅會增加同仁負擔也影響國安所以我記得我第一次來的時候也是在跟您關心邊線筆的一個現況那現在我想就教一下就是現況的數字我們有沒有分單位陸海空的一個邊線筆還是就是全軍的"},{"start":8603.453,"end":8612.242,"text":"我們當然各部隊都有各部隊邊線筆但是我們各部隊的邊線筆不方便在我們能夠提出整體的邊線筆但是個別部隊邊線筆這個整體的邊線筆79.2 114年所提供的一個數據 對吧那我們要拼80今天報告也寫到為穩定整個部隊的一個基層戰力"},{"start":8628.103,"end":8648.591,"text":"本部今年潮減少人力的流失提高留營的意願及提升招募的成效從三個方面來努力包括取消休假的回報制度開放官兵出國自由以及調整志願役官兵的返營時間與恢復常態的留職規定人性化的一個管理"},{"start":8649.671,"end":8677.596,"text":"我覺得誘因真的很重要所以本席之前有跟部長談過國軍返鄉的車程能不能補助在所有外離島的一個服役的官士兵他從外離島返台的車程啊不論是船或飛機都有補助但回到了台灣準備回到家裡可能是在南部可能是在東部好像這種的交通補助能不能有部長這部分到底有沒有評估評估狀況如何"},{"start":8678.636,"end":8699.91,"text":"我請後事事委員好我是後事事次長向委員報告這個問題其實之前已經有經過部內多次的討論我們之所以沒有針對外島返鄉到台灣之後他再回到他的家裡面去去做補助是考慮到橫平性譬如說我們現在有很多官士兵他家是住在高雄可是他在花蓮服務"},{"start":8701.397,"end":8721.446,"text":"如果我們今天特別針對外島地區回來的人要去做補助的話像我個人我家是住在高雄可是我長時間在國防部服務已經超過六年了那我每個月往返也是將近一萬二的高鐵的費用如果要考慮橫貧性的話不宜特別針對這個部分去做補助以上報告"},{"start":8722.694,"end":8751.058,"text":"但是你剛剛也提出了你相關的一個數據包括你個人一萬二嘛那在你身上有顯現出這樣子的一個車程費用那我還是要提出說每一個人都希望不管是增加國軍的福利增加國軍的相關的一些薪資但是我希望透過這樣子的一個狀況還是要反映出目前你們的評估是不是能夠再更紮實的去了解一下具體他們的需求了解官兵的需求"},{"start":8751.918,"end":8778.506,"text":"這也有可能是誘因之一再來做一個配套性的一個整合甚至是有條件的去協助我覺得這個部分是有蠻大的一個需求部長剛剛您聽到不管剛剛您旁邊所說的他們所提到的他自己本身這樣交通往來大概一萬二那更何況是士兵的一個需求那我想的是不是每一趟或者是他因為像外島回來他可能是一陣子他不是每個禮拜"},{"start":8779.995,"end":8804.555,"text":"對吧 外島可能一個月放假一次可能三個月放假一次 是嗎像委員報告有可能因為他配合他外島的輪休假可是我們思考到同樣未接的人譬如說有中下士他在國防部擔任勤務他家住高雄 他每個禮拜可能都會往返他可能需求會比外離島回來的人需求會更大但是在國防部上班的狀況跟在"},{"start":8805.396,"end":8819.832,"text":"他的家籍更少 他還沒有外島家籍有外島家籍我知道 對像委員報告就是如同剛剛之前部長有報告我們會全面性檢討我們的結構包含家籍包含薪資調整以上都會做橫平性的考量"},{"start":8821.094,"end":8837.812,"text":"能夠體諒為了這個公平所以你有這樣子的一個擔憂但是我想還是要再提到我們一直在爭取就是希望說他們的福利能夠再增加那也希望說這個部分上部長能夠再多關切官兵的一些福利狀況 以上謝謝我想官方部一直持續在關切"},{"start":8839.213,"end":8867.177,"text":"我們外島的志願役官兵其實我了解很多都是當地本籍人士的對啊好 請回號 謝謝好 接下來進行巡禮委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在王宏威委員 王宏威委員 王宏威委員不在徐富奎委員 徐富奎委員 徐富奎委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在接下來進行巡禮委員是林益君委員"},{"start":8880.722,"end":8883.107,"text":"謝謝主席有請顧部長是 林委員"},{"start":8891.24,"end":8898.567,"text":"部長早首先本席就直接切入今天的主題國軍正面臨的人力不足的實際上面的問題是有關各單位的實際的邊線比的問題部長我們就直接看國軍部隊戰力的核心也就是戰鬥部隊與戰鬥支援部隊簡報裡面的內容是根據你們國防部提供給本席"},{"start":8913.502,"end":8937.075,"text":"好的資料我們整理了大約是從106年到114年的9月底國軍各單位的邊線比的趨勢我們先看戰鬥部隊這個部分好左邊是所有的戰鬥部隊的邊線比的走勢我們很明顯的看到從108年109年之後整體都是整個下滑的趨勢真正負責作戰的單位包括防空飛彈艦隊裝甲"},{"start":8940.257,"end":8948.721,"text":"機械化的步兵及海軍陸戰隊四個單位的邊線比不只沒有達到80%的標準甚至是低於75%的嚴重不足尤其是陸軍的裝甲機部跟海軍陸戰隊不只邊線比嚴重不足甚至到了114年也似乎也都沒有改善的趨勢偏偏這幾個單位就是地面作戰的核心中的核心請問部長你們有發現國軍核心的整個作戰人力不足的嚴重問題嗎"},{"start":8969.992,"end":8984.044,"text":"因為戰鬥部隊要真正的發揮戰力的話戰鬥支援部隊是不可或缺的但是我們現在看一下戰鬥支援部隊的邊線比最慘的是陸軍通訊還有海軍的陸戰通訊還有海軍的陸戰"},{"start":8988.248,"end":8995.836,"text":"工兵還有海軍戰鬥支援這四個那不只邊線比都低於75%也沒有改善的趨勢那請問部長針對這些戰鬥部隊還有支援的部隊邊線比那麼低的情況除了用義務義趣充實這整個人力之外國防部有沒有一些具體的改善措施呢請部長說明"},{"start":9010.63,"end":9027.543,"text":"我想今天的報告主要就是召委希望我們來提出這個邊線筆提升的具體方案跟因應做法那我想我們在這邊也提到了就是說我們持續不斷的這個努力"},{"start":9028.263,"end":9050.757,"text":"那現在希望能夠讓這個招募也好留營也好不似乎的減少也好都在逐步的這個提升當中所以我們希望我們當然還有很多努力的空間那當然我們會持續來努力讓這個變性比還是盡量的往上走這樣子"},{"start":9052.59,"end":9073.909,"text":"還有一個就是根據我看本院預算中心的報告指出我覺得這是一個問題想要詢問部長一下自願役人力到今年六月底是75.58%但是今年國防部的報告在第二頁上面有寫到全軍目前的邊線比是79.2%"},{"start":9076.411,"end":9081.637,"text":"其中自願議佔了76.9議務議佔了2.3那請問一下部長就是國軍目前的邊線比究竟到底是多少啊然後為什麼光一個邊線比的統計國防部的數據和本院的預算中心報告是不一樣的是不是你們的統計的基礎是不一樣的"},{"start":9095.573,"end":9101.376,"text":"因為據我這樣看整個了解全軍的邊線筆包含了志願役還有義務役但因為義務役是強制的徵集然後理論上邊線筆問題是比較不大的所以要檢視部隊人力的問題我看應該是要以招募還有流營的整體成效的話實際上是要聚焦在志願役的邊線筆"},{"start":9118.004,"end":9131.786,"text":"的趨勢那請問部長光看這志願役的邊線筆的話到底是目前是多少呢如果是強制徵集的義務役人數也記錄的話這樣是不是有一點像在美化整個邊線筆的嫌疑呢"},{"start":9133.395,"end":9156.993,"text":"剛剛其實王召偉也提到了那個義務役的這個部分本來就是我們三月統計六月統計或者現在統計也好他都是差不多呈現一個固定數字那我們也在報告裡面有區分出志願役的部分是佔76.9那這個部分跟這個這個預算中心所提出的數字的差異我想請任志時做一個說明"},{"start":9157.88,"end":9175.135,"text":"委員好跟委員報告就是說我們79.2是現在目前最精確的數字是我們線上直接拉出來的數字這個絕對不會有問題那整個在做招募的過程裡面其實我們每年度啊我們設計招募8T次"},{"start":9175.996,"end":9200.368,"text":"然後到第五梯第六梯大概就年底生效但是六月的時候那時候就前面三個梯次所以說人還沒有完全進到部隊裡面來所以說那個時間點每個月他其實會不太一樣因為招募的或者是退伍的這個每個月都不會一樣但是79.2是現在目前最正確的數字所以79.2的話是自願役加上義務役嗎是"},{"start":9202.888,"end":9218.474,"text":"所以志願役的部分76.9嘛那這個我們也有顯示啊那如果是說像之後可能義務役的話當兵是一年了嘛如果這樣的話那邊線筆的話這樣的話應該是還是可以當作一個參考數值嗎您說義務役的部分嗎對義務役的話因為現在是四個月嘛之後的話義務役的話可能就是當一年嘛"},{"start":9228.921,"end":9233.046,"text":"就一年期的EWE會算進來因為一年期EWE才算入編制數裡面"},{"start":9235.256,"end":9247.761,"text":"所以我想其實有兩個問題想要提醒一下部長就是第一個問題就是因為今天在講人力的部分因為國防部這幾年真的是大量的採購很多新式的裝備所以這是需要比較專業的志願的士官兵來操作的所以如果讓不夠專業的義務役來操作的話我是怕會拉低了整個主戰部隊的平均的戰力"},{"start":9259.105,"end":9278.574,"text":"還有第二個問題就是說像主戰部隊的志願役如果真的不夠如果讓義務役來加入的話那國防部就應該要提供足夠的誘因畢竟主戰部隊還是相對對守戰部隊的話是辛苦比較多啦所以一般義務役通常是都不太願意主動的加入"},{"start":9278.974,"end":9308.703,"text":"所以希望國防部要趕快在一年期的義務役人數達到高峰之前趕快研擬一個獎勵的辦法才能吸引義務役加入部長那你覺得呢我們因為義務役是採這個就94年次以後他一年期嗎那我們現在當然著重的一個這個成果的就是在志願役的招募上面那志願役的留營部分也還有志願役的不適合減少的部分"},{"start":9308.823,"end":9327.217,"text":"我知道這是當然也是要努力的目標就是要招募和留營但是相對的我們當然是要擴大擴大國軍人力的有很多方法像也可以讓這些義務役的然後來當一年的時候他或許他認為當兵也不錯或許他也願意再留下來所以這樣的話是不是就針對他的獎勵方法可以給他多的獎勵讓他能夠繼續留在這個軍中呢有沒有想過這樣呢"},{"start":9336.604,"end":9350.966,"text":"有有有所以現在對於一年期的義務役在服役當中我們如果透過他的志願然後轉服成志願役的話我們都是非常歡迎的那應該有一定的成效了這個部分"},{"start":9353.086,"end":9376.76,"text":"委員好跟委員報告就是說義務役的他從入伍開始我們就開始做招募他分發到部隊去之後一樣同樣的我們都會做招募那去年到現在今年我們就講今年就是一年期義務役進來大概有10%轉成志願役那後續他到部隊服務之後我們還會持續讓他了解部隊的特性也希望能夠他能夠加入國軍"},{"start":9378.035,"end":9402.744,"text":"對啊 就是說怎麼樣讓他可以想要留下來那是不是給他更多的獎勵方法呢我想我們應該還是說會進行一個招募那還是在他自願的情況之下然後在服役的當中來了解這個部隊的型態然後他覺得他能夠適應然後他願意轉服自願役那我們就非常歡迎這樣"},{"start":9403.683,"end":9426.982,"text":"好 那謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝林議軍委員 部長 各位請回部長先請坐我們昨天去考察裝訓部楊基隆中將陪同 非常感謝他有一些問題要給部長做了解我們目前M1A2T當時採購就沒有附上BMS"},{"start":9428.291,"end":9447.621,"text":"你沒有戰場管理系統去執行現代化的C2所以我們在現場我相信楊中將當場就看出問題來了我們訓練科目沒有這一塊還在用聲音去指揮結果打出來有三台坦克打一個目標兩台坦克打一個目標那這個科目因為沒有訓練所以我們今天講的是邊線比邊裝訓用你將來我們有了BMS"},{"start":9453.627,"end":9461.663,"text":"現在訓好的部隊還要再回來補這個科目這有點讓可惜的NYAT的現代戰鬥能力另外如果我們還在等睿子的話"},{"start":9463.167,"end":9488.462,"text":"對此 我相信軍方比我還了解我覺得我們陸軍應該趕快補強我們的現代化的BMS否則訓練上缺了一塊 全員都缺了那一塊 這個是一個問題好 這個是給部長做參考好 我們今天會議到這裡告一個段落以登記質詢委員不在場外 軍已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由沈伯陽委員因為到歐洲德國參加國際會議"},{"start":9490.383,"end":9517.722,"text":"那這也證明中國的跨境鎮壓根本是一個BS是一個政治上的恫嚇動作那也代表沈博洋委員在自由民主國家暢行無阻我剛剛從美國回來他上個禮拜也去韓國參加國際會議所以中國的恫嚇對我們的軍方是最先做的不管是軍情局 制通電局 或者是戰局我們要小心翼翼但是也不用被他嚇到了而在"},{"start":9518.963,"end":9527.177,"text":"沈博洋委員的今日在德國的會議剛好也打臉了這些中共以及在台協作者的臉那他今天請假那他這個"},{"start":9529.676,"end":9551.813,"text":"另外他要提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者請國安部於兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從其鎖定11月12日13日兩天一次會所列議程均已處理完畢我們現在散會大家辛苦"}]}},{"id":"165359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face88ad5f77fb05f1d7fa47f864c5dfb45a999b3dda738276807c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:02:41 - 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勞動部次長"},{"start":16.041,"end":37.187,"text":"委員好主席長好主席長我上一次的時候根據這個國庫調查的這個貧富差距的時候是從資產面的時候來就教於您過去30年那最後面收入20%的家庭其實財富不增反減那今天我想說從所得面所得面的部分特別把這個D4到D7的部分"},{"start":38.467,"end":63.243,"text":"這個中位數這個上下的比例的這個部分把它匡列出來你去看實質的成長率這10年而且是到2023的統計的部分它的這個成長比例都是在個位數而是最少的那相對而言D1 D2 D2 D3的部分的話因為有基本新知識的架構把它增高 撐起但是呢 D8 D9那因為高所得產業的這個紅利"},{"start":64.964,"end":91.709,"text":"那現階段的最大的問題就是D10到D7的部分要怎麼處理那過往政府所處理的大概是透過這個稅免的部分來稅減的部分來減少負擔但是最關鍵的部分應該還是在於中低這個增加收入吧否則的話這十年來他們所增加的這個部分只有到3到6%而且如果還在像CPI的話恐怕實質增加財富非常有限吧"},{"start":93.111,"end":116.803,"text":"它是事實上是差不多平均其實都是差不多4%數字應該沒有錯嘛這是來自於您嘛所以說這是一個很大的問題啊我是覺得從一個從一個現在今天我們要討論這個M化兩極化的社會的情況底下要怎麼面對怎麼處理就出現一個很大的問題最近當然政府有處理中小企業的部分的這個底稅的修法成效也都還沒出現嘛"},{"start":117.703,"end":140.981,"text":"那勞動部最近有一個這個雇主加薪企圖那個政策目標是想要幫本勞加薪嘛那個我請次長理事一下理事你這個增加移工的額度可以增加的部分那最多額度也是大概10%然後預估要4年才會大概有受惠的勞工朋友大概只有20萬嘛對不對對"},{"start":143.396,"end":164.689,"text":"这个案子这个利益是良善但是相对而言效果相对有限你也知道受雇者的比例相当高 政策如果是这样子的话我是不是有一个可能性因为我们就案基金其实过去长期以来一直受到相当程度的诟病然后经常出现的是重复补助或例行补助那也没有达到一定的效果"},{"start":165.149,"end":186.543,"text":"那救安基金的部分之前我在救教育貴部的時候就特別提到我再舉一個例子好了最近健保費有在收取一部分的保費去獎勵一些醫護人員提高薪資我請李次能不能回去了解一下也就是從收費過來的部分給從業人員多一點薪資然後防止他的流動率"},{"start":189.265,"end":213.284,"text":"增加這個就職的比例另外一個部分有沒有可能透過救安基金的方式來因為引進移工相關的這個費用當中來比照辦理提出這個政策的可能性市長你的看法你是說拿救安基金來做什麼就是類似像保費的部分來刺激鼓勵雇主來增加薪資的可能性"},{"start":215.12,"end":234.03,"text":"你說拿救安基金對 有沒有一個鼓勵的方式就比較保費的方式補助 雇主什麼用什麼方式都可以就是說至少你不要重複老是在補助一些特定團體例行性的團體把這個救安基金達到另一種薪資提升達到就業安定的目的"},{"start":235.17,"end":263.545,"text":"跟委員說明那個救援基金依照法律規定他是要協助以促進跟協助本國國民失業國民就業為主要目標那所以如果跟這個目標比較無關的話這個照現在的規定是有困難有一個方向上一個是促進就業嘛那防止離職嘛就是防止流動這種雙向的思考當中有沒有一個擴大解釋的可能是不是請理事回去思考一下好不好"},{"start":264.605,"end":274.649,"text":"只要能夠達到這個目標啦 好不好麻煩理事回去思考一下另外一個部分我想要請財政部跟這個衛福部兩位請衛福部 理事長"},{"start":281.826,"end":300.604,"text":"委員好部長剛剛在討論這一個有關於補充保費的部分補充保費的部分就我這邊相關的數據當中李次也在這邊就教因為最近爭議非常的大而且對一些純穀族跟小蜘族的部分相對剝削感"},{"start":302.606,"end":330.952,"text":"其實就這個衛福部當中的第二項當中就有提到說如果把這一千萬的天花板打開到五千萬的部分的話就可以增加六億的補充保費的來源事實上本席去了解一下這兩年補充保費的部分大概股利的部分其實已經有佔兩成但是就上市櫃的股息的發放去年一整年大概有2.3兆"},{"start":332.612,"end":353.734,"text":"外資的部分拿走8000法人的部分拿走5000大約約莫還有自然人的部分大概剩下一兆如果這一兆拿出來的話 憨不啷噹我們從這一兆拿到了這個2.11%就有200多億了 那個就打開了就可以Cover這個你在補充百貨來源那個市長這裡頭有什麼顧慮嗎"},{"start":356.67,"end":372.688,"text":"感謝委員對於這個議題的關心那我跟委員報告就是說這個議題我們現在補充寶貝我們現在目前是這個暫緩但是我們現在也跟財政部這邊在積極研議那剛剛委員剛所說的這個部分主要大概就是說就是把那個天花板那個部分把它打開"},{"start":375.189,"end":394.875,"text":"這個我們再來演繹也跟財政部這邊市長我再給你一個參考去年十大股東自然人的收入就一共拿了305億就這十個人就可以有6.4億的補充保護費如果最高收入的話一個家庭的股利大概是2900億就這一person的家庭而已只有2900億"},{"start":400.99,"end":425.544,"text":"就有50到60亿了 对不对你从这个今天我们讨论这个两极化的社会当中你就应该思考这个问题对不对 你怎么一直给小知足刚刚我一开始所PO的这个这个第4到第8的这群人当中一直找这群人给他去取得他的财富他当然相对不满你看他实质的所得也不过是个位数而已"},{"start":426.673,"end":451.962,"text":"这引起反弹相对的剥夺感就是从这边而来市长回去好好思考一下从这个角度来看而且还有一个角度可以看的是法人大股东有没有可能做一个对象这个部分你也请那个跟部长好好讨论一下好不好毕竟这个财政部科税比较有经验怎么用他会比较清楚好不好好好思考一下"},{"start":452.842,"end":478.63,"text":"不然M型社會就會一直持續發生就是你們這種政策搞成這樣子好 謝謝市長你稍等一下我再問一下部長這邊站那麼久不好意思 部長部長 這個補充保惠的部分我們現在我們在討論這個補充保惠我們就不免想到我們現在最大很大的一個收入的部分來源總共在明年度大概有760幾億就是房地合一稅的這個稅源"},{"start":480.35,"end":493.396,"text":"在房東合一稅的稅源當中目前為止就從上一次本席跟你質詢之後好不容易從百分之百都給長照現在有10%那明年是不是多10%就兩成 對不對"},{"start":496.124,"end":513.067,"text":"住宅的部分住宅的部分就變兩層那住宅的部分現在社會住宅已經卡關八個月原因在什麼原因在說經費不足即便變了兩層明年也大概是191億而已一棟社會住宅補助的10億沒有算多了所以挺多大概20棟"},{"start":514.329,"end":540.544,"text":"这么情况底下你在20%老实讲现在的社会住宅的部分20%相对还是比较低就从住宅基金你本来的钱就来自于房地产你还只有两成这个部分请部长回去思考一下为什么做这样的思考呢也跟次长有相关次长你看最几年的长照制度长照预算从300多亿到800多亿审计部多次指出质询率不佳"},{"start":541.184,"end":570.669,"text":"特別在112年113年有23項執行率不到一半或不到八成啊連民間團體都出來講為了衝執行率又衝KPI很多補助都太過於腐爛了就是錢太多嘛錢太多你應該這個把錢挪在有需要的地方嘛就你現在他已經沒有那個執行能量了沒有那個量能你一直給他他當然會變成這種結果啊那個部長這是你們兩部的事情啊是要處理一下好不好"},{"start":571.312,"end":591.054,"text":"我們也會邀同內政部一起來討論做一個怎麼樣的對啊 找內政部來嘛內政部也是很困擾另外還有那個李次我再問你一下國民年金的部分一直強調現在4049的低標其實是不夠是希望提到8000提到8000的部分也可以有助於今天N型社化形成的結果嘛"},{"start":591.694,"end":607.049,"text":"市長我想聽聽您的看法非常感謝委員對於我們國民年金的受保人的一利益的關心為本部我們覺得就是說應該要朝向支持我們的整個保障國民的退休福祉我想8000其實老實說也是"},{"start":607.89,"end":634.237,"text":"老實說也恐怕也不太夠啦但是我們應該朝這個目標是不夠如果再加上還有其他的這個己夫的話加總起來的話比較有可能接近最低生活費而已啦沒錯啦 也降低我們老人貧窮一般的先是在一萬五一萬六對不對所以說這個部分真的需要調啦好不好市長請衛福部回去慎重思考最後一個問題想要問一下那個市長請回我最後一個問題想要問一下那個部長財政部長部長"},{"start":636.238,"end":662.977,"text":"那个最近有在谈到我们财政部所属公股银行底下的这一些头性诊病的问题我是第一个要提醒一下那个劳工权益要顾好那第二个的部分呢有一些部分的公股银行有在做分行的这个诊病对不对尤其是海外的部分有一条街都比西班牙还多这个我都举过例子但最后我本席要提醒一下其实你们海外分行更多啦"},{"start":663.797,"end":669.223,"text":"海外分行出現問題的更多我跟你夯不啷噹算起來總共你這些分行這八大公股銀行加起來大概100從紙行分行加起來134間需要整頓的搞不好是這邊那個部長你要不要回去思考一下"},{"start":679.855,"end":709.045,"text":"沒有錯 現在有關海外分行的部分因為海外分行主要是服務我們的台商嘛我們的僑胞然後那需要不要做調整隨著產業的一些移動我們會做一些調整然後我們想各個金控還有銀行也都在做這方面的事昨天我才問過金管會金管會在中國的曝險也從46%降到15%一整 足足少了20幾%這樣曝險越高就是業務量一直萎縮的情況底下海外分行的據點的重要性就相對的減少嘛"},{"start":709.705,"end":732.421,"text":"是不是是不是一同思考一下好不好公股航庫的其實曝險的比例更低啊對 更低啊所以說呢 海外航庫需要實質要設的可能性再加上現在網路 電子支付越來越盛行實體銀行就更不需要的情況底下應該慎重思考一下好不好是的好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝國務委員接下來我們請李彥秀委員"}]}},{"id":"165385","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165385","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8ef5252dbf62e7affa47f864c5dfb45a0f406a00a8f97c063e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:53:11 - 11:05:12","影片長度":"00:12:01","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T10:53:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T11:05:12+08:00","duration":721,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.555968750000002,"end":25.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":32.27909375,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.68409375,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":40.85159375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":42.758468750000006,"end":47.922218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.509093750000005,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":47.98971875,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.74846875,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.705343750000004,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.75534375,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":67.42971875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":74.36534375000001,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":75.14159375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.50846875,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":78.97221875000001,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":81.87471875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.16534375,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":91.96596875,"end":93.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":95.69534375,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":96.40409375,"end":119.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.48909375000001,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.30409375000002,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.64096875,"end":174.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.66534375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.80409375000002,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":187.51221875000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":190.02659375000002,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.15284375000002,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.22409375,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":198.59909375,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.24034375000002,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":207.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":207.64409375000002,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":239.30159375000002,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.82784375000003,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":250.27034375000002,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":251.73846875,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.77534375,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.67284375,"end":267.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":267.29721875,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":285.11721875,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.84159375,"end":294.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":294.41534375000003,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.74409375000005,"end":299.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.41034375000004,"end":327.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":301.95846875,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":303.76409375000003,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.11846875000003,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.29534375000003,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.00784375,"end":310.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.15096875,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":315.15471875000003,"end":315.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":322.42784375,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":327.11909375000005,"end":335.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.75909375000003,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.68659375000004,"end":365.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":341.93534375,"en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庄部长有请庄部长委员好部长好这个普发现金昨天1月12号已经陆续入账了对不对那请教一下部长手边上有数字吗就是从昨天入账到现在有多少人已经领到这个普发现金1万块了"},{"start":25.53,"end":39.958,"text":"我到昨天的數字 今天我們再統計已經超過1000萬人已經領到了現金那這裡面包括直接入帳還有登記入帳就是原來有去網站去登記入帳的這樣合計起來超過1000萬人"},{"start":42.819,"end":60.693,"text":"就是那個網路登記的然後還有包含直接入帳的那直接入帳的部分的話是入到他們各自的帳戶就對了對 直接入帳比如說有勞保年金的災保年金 國民年金他們原來都有固定政府有固定的那固定的帳戶是銀行還是郵局"},{"start":64.232,"end":76.585,"text":"應該有銀行也有是不是都有銀行跟郵局應該都有都是固定輸入進入他的帳號那這個部分就有大概有400多萬的人都是直接入帳了400多萬的人直接入帳458萬"},{"start":79.011,"end":91.355,"text":"有458萬人是直接入帳是直接入帳的所以大概有600萬人是登記登記有六天的時間就是11月5號到11月10號有588萬人去做預登記了當然陸續這兩天都可以不管身分證號的尾數都可以再繼續做其實我們也有在做宣傳現在有五種領取的方式對不對但是很多人還是第一個會搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":106.721,"end":111.91,"text":"就是說到底是線上登記郵局領ATM領有些人就是說這個可不可以帶領有些人就想說這個會有詐騙的問題所以也不敢在線上登記"},{"start":120.123,"end":140.36,"text":"我們有沒有想到就是說我們乾脆就是比如說單一帳戶我們每個國民都有一個單一的帳戶比如說像郵局我們出生之後我們就有一個單一的帳戶那這個單一的帳戶呢就是以後不管像是這一種的普發現金或是像您講的就是說有一些我們是有一些津貼"},{"start":141.681,"end":168.699,"text":"要匯給這一些需要的人那我們是不是就乾脆我們就乾脆比如說郵局好因為郵局是國營的嘛也比較沒有爭議那我們出生之後每個人在郵局有一個帳戶然後以後有類似這一種津貼或是說這種福利的話我們就直接匯到那個帳戶那也不會有說到底有幾種領取的方式啊也避免這個被詐騙以後有沒有機會朝這種方式去做啊"},{"start":169.346,"end":178.434,"text":"我想委員您這個建議也就是說每一個國民就如同健保卡一樣人生就給他一個健保然後我們政府是不是給他一個帳號以後相關的津貼或什麼都直接入帳戶我想這個部分也許可以我們跨部會來討論看看也成為一個國家的基礎建設會然後當然還要考慮其他的問題我想這個部分要從長的研議之前有沒有想過這方面的就是說因為這個普發現金也不是第一次"},{"start":195.731,"end":215.231,"text":"之前倒没有这样子的一个规划这样子啊那你觉得实际上可行吗我的建议我想应该还是要跨部会大家一起来讨论要考虑的因素可能也比较多好 没关系你们讨论一下去思考一下跨部会想一下我是觉得说你有一个单一的账户每个国民都有"},{"start":216.251,"end":231.001,"text":"那類似這種津貼你就直接匯進去第一個不用怕詐騙時間到就匯進去然後呢這個也是這種方式就不用說我還要去ATM或是去郵局或是去哪裡也很方便然後呢也不會有什麼帶領的問題這小孩子到底要給誰領這個是自己領還是給家長領"},{"start":236.504,"end":254.49,"text":"那郵局的營業時間第一個它據點多營業時間長然後它也是國營的比較不會衍生一些爭議我覺得你們研究一下好不好我想這個部分要跨部會大家一起來研議思考一下做一個周全的準備好 謝謝部長那我們接下來請這個主席總處陳主席長還有這個衛福部呂市長好 陳主席長 呂市長"},{"start":267.605,"end":279.594,"text":"主席長好 之前在立法院有提過說我們全台灣的低收入戶只佔1.13%如果加上中低收入戶只佔2.26%如果採取相對貧窮率來計算全台有7.57%是屬於貧窮的範圍高於低收入戶的統計高很多 對不對"},{"start":293.908,"end":322.114,"text":"沒錯這中間有落差嘛 是不是因為當初這個家庭所得他只計算經常性收入財富沒有算進去所以他裡面會有一些隱藏性的所得所以在衛福部他在設計的時候他會把財產和一些相關的數據設計在裡面所以他的數據這當中就會有一點落差但是他對如果說有一些貧窮的黑術他本身沒有辦法得到救助他另外也有其他的一個"},{"start":322.594,"end":333.941,"text":"方式的一個做一些補助的一個方式這個要由衛福部來說明好 那主計長我問你你認為說我們在統計的這個數字上面有沒有沒有算進去的大家講的貧窮黑數"},{"start":335.974,"end":364.363,"text":"就是因為當初這個部分是沒有把財富算進來財富沒有算進來包括譬如說你的資產一些相關的負債如果說整個算進來的部分還是會有譬如說有的他明明是失業但是因為他是屬於有能力去工作的我們把他視為他是有所得這個部分他可能就是"},{"start":365.504,"end":375.957,"text":"這個就是現在大家有在詬病的就是說虛擬收入的部分對不對對 這個是這樣我這個部要請衛福部那我先問主席長妳認為這個虛擬收入合理嗎"},{"start":377.174,"end":397.91,"text":"这个部分我要看他怎么就是说我们现在是假设就是说你其实是有工作能力的你只是现在没有工作那但是呢我就假定你呢你如果去工作你就有这些收入嘛是不是但世界上不是每个人都愿意去可以找工作就可以找到工作或是找到合适的工作或是说找到的工作可以维持我的基本生活啊"},{"start":398.47,"end":421.776,"text":"但是跟委員報告 事實上我們有相當的措施譬如說你失業 整個有可以領失業的一個救濟所以整個可以領到長達六個月所以這本身都是有互相一個救濟的一個措施在讓他不至於說那當然就是屬於社會救濟的部分對 這個是失業的時候你就會有領到失業救助可以長達六個月 做一個"},{"start":423.953,"end":428.926,"text":"好 我知道我們當然有一些社會福利做得還不錯啦那主席想請回我就問這一個理事長"},{"start":430.799,"end":457.139,"text":"那次長因為現在社會救助法正在討論那我先問好了社會救助法大家比較關心就是我剛有提到一個就是虛擬收入的制度是沒錯就是說你只要去工作你就有收入了你只是現在沒有去工作而已所以我就把你這個年紀你可能找到的工作按照你是哪個類型的你每個月可以收入多少就把它當成是一個虛擬的收入是不是是沒錯"},{"start":458.18,"end":472.481,"text":"那也因為有這個虛擬收入的制度其實啊我們這個很多的這個屬於貧窮的人就沒有把它算進去你看我們貧窮率好像很低其實實際上不是那回事的這個您也當過社會局局長您應該很清楚了解還有另外一個"},{"start":473.743,"end":491.028,"text":"我們所得還是採取家戶的計算你採取家戶計算很多人覺得說我家戶計算其實我跟我的家人其實已經都沒有任何的關係了只有血緣在而已然後也把家人的財產共同計算進去"},{"start":493.849,"end":509.272,"text":"那在這種情況之下你就是領不到一些相關的就算我們有中低收入的補助相關的社會救助的津貼我也領不到啊那在這種情況之下我們社會救助法有沒有至少針對這兩點外界一直在質疑的有做出調整或修正"},{"start":510.033,"end":532.343,"text":"非常感謝委員的關心剛剛委員確實有指出兩個重點我們現在目前有一個就是所謂的設算所得那設算所得的那個部分我想我先跟委員報告我們現在目前就是我們講那個虛擬收入我們這個部分我們確實有在檢討很簡單我們現在目前就是說我們的檢討方式現在就是說會以一定的這個所得我們現在可能打個折扣"},{"start":534.207,"end":562.275,"text":"這個幾個折扣要怎麼打勒報告委員這個我那個在向委員的報告我們現在目前主要是參考勞動部他那邊有關於那個薪資薪資的這一個的那個數據還有其實最重要事實上是有關於這一個就是所謂的無一定雇主的那個所謂的非典型就業者他們的這個薪資按照這兩個指數我們現在先去做一些作業推算這是第一個重點另外第二個剛剛委員好你做了一些改變那跟現在的制度有什麼不一樣嗎"},{"start":563.295,"end":584.67,"text":"對沒錯有時候不一樣會因為你這樣子涉涮會因為這樣而放寬啦會放寬放寬大概範圍會多大咧跟委員報告現在剛剛就是說其實在貧窮裡面我也趁這個機會解釋一下就是說有相對貧窮跟絕對貧窮那我們現在目前有進入社會救助只有所謂的絕對貧窮那跟委員報告我們現在低收中低收總共占了二點"},{"start":585.67,"end":607.047,"text":"大概2.4%這就屬於絕對貧窮的嘛對 沒錯我們現在目前根據這一個我們現在目前其實民團這邊還有各界大概有很多像這一個人極合一啦還有剛剛委員剛剛所說的有關於這個有關於戶數的問題這部分我們都有檢討那預估這一個部分的話大概一定是會放寬但是我也要跟委員報告"},{"start":608.208,"end":630.938,"text":"台灣真的在這個部分我要利用這個機會要說我們的相對貧窮我們的相對貧窮率真的只有7.54這當然會有黑數的問題黑數的部分我們現在目前其實也有八大津貼除了社會救助之外我們在老人生活老人 身心障礙還有困境的部分事實上再加上去的話我們會到8%"},{"start":632.519,"end":648.112,"text":"8%的部分我跟委員報告這個部分我們是比日本 韓國跟美國都還比他們還高我知道我們有一些社會的福利在那我們現在是談的是社會救助那兩個概念是應該是不一樣的當然沒錯我現在就釐清就是說有一個就是絕對貧窮跟相對貧窮就是兩個不能夠混淆在一起那第一個你提到就是說虛擬制度會做修改就對了那那個家戶所得勒"},{"start":656.198,"end":674.953,"text":"家務所這邊我們也會一併就是說像有一些可能是嫁出去的女兒啦或者說等等那些對啊那財產也一起算啊對 所以這個我們覺得應該有值得來商榷之處啦那社會救助法"},{"start":676.127,"end":701.628,"text":"今年會送出來嗎包括我們現在正在努力當中那有辦法年底送到立法院來嗎我們會努力會努力我們努力朝這個方向因為我知道現在大家對這個問題非常關心加油啦就是說經濟成長率很高啦然後這個看起來數字都不錯但是還是有很多社會下貧窮的人需要我們去協助啦除了社會津貼社會福利之外社會救助法的確需要改變"},{"start":702.508,"end":715.942,"text":"沒錯沒錯要有些與時俱進剛剛委員說的一些該鬆應該要那個合理的我們要把它合理化好謝謝次長好非常感謝昆城委員謝謝好謝謝昆城召委謝謝呂次長好可以啊好那麼我們再請林市民委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"165384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face889b5cf1914bd5165cb08f7d303ca8f40f406a00a8f97c068a5713b642961ecf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:58:39 - 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有請部長部長請"},{"start":12.916,"end":32.175,"text":"國軍邊線筆是戰隊最重要的一個新指標之一但若長期偏低不僅會增加同仁負擔也影響國安所以我記得我第一次來的時候也是在跟您關心邊線筆的一個現況那現在我想就教一下就是現況的數字我們有沒有分單位陸海空的一個邊線筆還是就是全軍的"},{"start":33.467,"end":42.153,"text":"我們當然各部隊都有各部隊的邊線筆但是我們各部隊的邊線筆不方便我們能夠提出整體的邊線筆但是各部隊的邊線筆整體的邊線筆79.2 114年所提供的一個數據那我們要拼80今天報告也寫到為穩定整個部隊的基層戰力"},{"start":58.14,"end":78.608,"text":"本部今年潮減少人力的流失提高流營的意願及提升招募的成效從三個方面來努力包括取消休假的回報制度開放官兵出國自由以及調整自願役官兵的返營時間與恢復常態的留職規定人性化的一個管理"},{"start":79.688,"end":107.526,"text":"我覺得誘因真的很重要所以本席之前有跟部長談過國軍返鄉的車程能不能補助在所有外離島的一個服役的官士兵他從外離島返台的車程不論是船或飛機都有補助但回到了台灣準備回到家裡可能是在南部可能是在東部好像這種的交通補助能不能有部長這部分到底有沒有評估評估狀況如何"},{"start":108.653,"end":129.93,"text":"我請後事事委員好我是後事事次長向委員報告這個問題其實之前已經有經過部內多次的討論我們之所以沒有針對外島返鄉到台灣之後他再回到他的家裡面去去做補助是考慮到橫平性譬如說我們現在有很多官士兵他家是住在高雄可是他在花蓮服務"},{"start":131.414,"end":151.463,"text":"如果我們今天特別針對外島地區回來的人要去做補助的話像我個人我家是住在高雄可是我長時間在國防部服務已經超過六年了那我每個月往返也是將近一萬二的高鐵的費用如果要考慮橫貧性的話不宜特別針對這個部分去做補助 以上報告"},{"start":152.711,"end":181.056,"text":"但是你剛剛也提出了你相關的一個數據包括你個人一萬二嘛那在你身上有顯現出這樣子的一個車程費用那我還是要提出說每一個人都希望不管是增加國軍的福利增加國軍的相關的一些薪資但是我希望透過這樣子的一個狀況還是要反映出目前你們的評估是不是能夠再更紮實的去了解一下具體他們的需求了解官兵的需求"},{"start":181.936,"end":208.524,"text":"這也有可能是誘因之一再來做一個配套性的一個整合甚至是有條件的去協助我覺得這個部分是有蠻大的一個需求部長剛剛您聽到不管剛剛您旁邊所說的他們所提到的他自己本身這樣交通往來大概一萬二那更何況是士兵的一個需求那我想的是不是每一趟或者是他因為像外島回來他可能是一陣子他不是每個禮拜"},{"start":210.012,"end":234.572,"text":"對吧 外島可能一個月放假一次可能三個月放假一次 是嗎像委員報告有可能因為他配合他外島的輪休假可是我們思考到同樣未接的人譬如說有中下士他在國防部擔任勤務 他家住高雄他每個禮拜可能都會往返他可能需求會比外離島回來的人需求會更大但是在國防部上班的狀況跟在"},{"start":235.413,"end":249.841,"text":"他的家籍更少 他還沒有外島家籍有外島家籍我知道 對像委員報告就是如同剛剛之前部長有報告我們會全面性檢討我們的結構包含家籍包含薪資調整以上都會做橫平性的考量"},{"start":251.102,"end":267.398,"text":"不夠體諒為了這個公平所以你有這樣子的一個擔憂但是我想還是要再提到我們一直在爭取就是希望說他們的福利能夠再增加那也希望說這個部分上部長能夠再多關切官兵的一些福利狀況 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等一下郭玉琴委員結束之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請廖院長廖院長有請好 委員長"},{"start":19.261,"end":44.255,"text":"院長早安我想近幾年來其實我們中研院不斷地在拓展國際科研跟人文上的一些合作我們知道在10月份其實我們跟英國皇家學會共同舉辦了台英雙邊的一些會議另外這個是聚焦在健康然後糧食跟能源等等的領域強化深化彼此科研的合作的一個夥伴這樣子的一個關係"},{"start":45.436,"end":71.961,"text":"那另外呢其實也有多位的這個學者也參與了這個英國國家學術院全球召集計畫台北場的一個閉門的研討會那逐漸其實我們也在就是拓展所謂的這些外交的一些科研的一個潛力但是呢在此同時我們知道這個在北京有一場就是全球視野下的這個中國抗戰的一個研討會"},{"start":73.041,"end":89.435,"text":"那当然他们也吸引了大概全球有一些这些学者也共同的参与在台湾的部分好像也去了大概二十几位的一个学者其中有一位也是来自我们的这个众议院的近代史所的这个已经退休的研究员"},{"start":89.815,"end":106.529,"text":"那是退休的人員是是是好他是退休人員但是其實我想這也凸顯到在現在兩岸的一些比較敏感的一個關係我想這個是現狀這是無庸置疑大家都非常的緊張那再加上這個中共的一個"},{"start":106.989,"end":125.267,"text":"统战的渗透其实他们是日益的精细的一个背景之下我想这样子的一个学术的一个交流如果没有防护的一个机制它有可能会成为所谓的政治或者是在国安上的一个破口那这也是我们不得不提醒那尤其是我们的"},{"start":126.408,"end":140.462,"text":"看到這類似像這樣的情況其實在美國他們也特別要求這個學者他們要揭露所有跟這個外國資金的一個合作那麼在澳洲呢他們也有這樣子的一個設立就是外國干預風險的一個小組啦"},{"start":142.324,"end":156.8,"text":"那相對來講其實我們中研院身為國家最高的學術科研的一個機構那我想這個部分也是扮演的非常重要的一個守門員的一個角色那在這裡我想要請教的就是院長"},{"start":157.381,"end":177.176,"text":"如果说目前有中研院他们的这些学者就是目前在中研院的学者他们想要去参加因为我们常常在说这个学术希望他是独立的就是让学术独立在所有的这个政治的风险之外但是其实以目前的现状来讲其实还是有一些困难"},{"start":177.836,"end":202.574,"text":"困難的地方那如果他們要附中參加這樣子的研討會或者是合作的研究甚至要發表一些論文有沒有一些比較明確的事前的申報或者是在風險的機制的一個評估那這個申報的門檻又是什麼是只限於他們所謂的這個公務的出國還是包含他們自己自費的學術交流也必須要向中研院這邊來申報"},{"start":203.675,"end":227.513,"text":"那評估的內容他又是由誰來看到底是人事的單位還是有專責就是在我們中研院有沒有專責的一個國安的一個顧問團那評估的指標又會是什麼因為我們很擔心就是很怕流於形勢蓋個章他就可以出國了但是他出國之後他的這些我覺得我們中研院可能還是要就"},{"start":227.973,"end":248.472,"text":"比较机密的一些比方说像科研的内容或者是在国安上的一些疑虑来做这样子的一个就是依规来做申报就我刚刚所讲的这些问题就是风险的评估我们众议院这边有没有这样子的一个机制我们请人事单位来回答"},{"start":250.137,"end":267.545,"text":"委員好 我是主任廖康武跟委員說明一下就是有關我們附錄的相關的申請的部分那原則上以我們現在來講附錄的申請我們就是要函報給內政部移民署的部分大概包含就是我們政務人員部分還有關鍵技術人員的相關的計畫那以及社密人員"},{"start":268.405,"end":288.867,"text":"以及就是他们离职后三年的政务人员这一个部分那原则上如果是这类人员他们要出国的话出境的部分那原则上我们就是应该要先依照规定报给移民署他同意之后那原则上我们自己内部也有资讯治安的相关的管控所以这个部分如果他们要俘虏的时候基本上我们有完整的一个机制的部分去做这样子的控管"},{"start":289.568,"end":306.04,"text":"好 這個是在我們的內部的機制那其實剛剛還包含我講的這些問題這些評估的報告會不會只留於形式可能蓋個章它其實就可以出去了就是中研院這邊我們是有跨部會比方說我們可能有跟這個資安或者是國安的單位有來對齊跟對接嗎"},{"start":307.461,"end":334.132,"text":"基本上跟委員報告那幾個計畫的部分因為那是國科會跟中委院以及中委院自己本身計畫的列管所以報給他們的時候他們有一個專門的委員會去審查那目前為止就是我們並沒有附入申請的人員但是如果他有的話他就必須先循這樣的程序他才能夠附入另外我想再問一點就是說包含所謂的比較機敏或者是敏感的一些領域像是AI或者是半導體思安或者是居民融合的一些技術"},{"start":334.972,"end":357.219,"text":"在合作的部分有没有事先做过这样子的一个审查的一个制度有没有因为他这个报计划的部分是国科会他针对就是我们国家关键技术然后各机关可能有学校教授老师参与的部分到底是哪几个计划他必须去就是说他就是我们认为的国家核心关键所以这是经过就是移民署还有国科会他们的讨论"},{"start":357.859,"end":377.63,"text":"所以這不是只有中研院這邊決定他們決定這個部分它是一個機密國家機密的話那你這些人員有涉及的話那原則上他的賦入都是要控管的好 那除了跟剛剛所講到的這個部分那中研院自己的內部有沒有所謂的學術滲透的一個風險的窗口我們有沒有這樣子一個窗口"},{"start":377.99,"end":388.38,"text":"我們中央醫院這個部分無論是剛才跟委員報告那些所有人我們所有的人他附入他又都必須要去填報我們的資安相關的規定所以每一個人出境都要填這個部分"},{"start":389.797,"end":410.135,"text":"這個是 我講的是內部我們自己本身中研院有沒有這樣子的一個窗口對 中研院好 那如果說這個國安單位他認為說這個部分是有合作上的疑慮那有沒有曾經有過這樣子的一個例子那我們中研院是不是能夠馬上立即凍結這樣子的一個計畫那有沒有曾經有過這樣子的一個案例"},{"start":410.635,"end":425.44,"text":"這些計畫全部被列管那列管的這些人目前沒有有實力嗎目前都沒有目前都沒有碰過這樣子的一個問題為什麼我要特別這樣子的問喔因為其實我們是非常擔心尤其是在這個當下那"},{"start":426.36,"end":455.407,"text":"其實今年這個陸委會它在五月其實就已經有請示過了因為現在中國常常以所謂的科研的競賽或學術的一個論壇或者是所謂的企業實習為名來吸引就是台灣不管是青年或者是學者附中但是附中之後它有可能會涉及所謂的這個軍民融合的一個單位和政治性的一個參訪這是我們不得不要提醒就是我們中研院這個部分其實真的要特別做這樣子的一個嚴加控管的一個機制"},{"start":457.788,"end":482.058,"text":"接下來我想問一下就是關於人才的部分請教一下院長我想這幾年中醫院我們也陸續推出所謂的人才的一些政策包含人才雙件的延攬跟延聘從博士或者是博士後的培育的支持整體的方向其實我們也是給予肯定但是在第一件我們是要延攬左右的人才"},{"start":482.498,"end":507.748,"text":"那第二件的部分呢其實我們是要讓這個表現優異的研究員他可以延聘到所謂的70歲那我想這個部分當然也是穩固了所謂的中高階的這個研究的人力的一個量能然後但是呢我們怎麼樣來保障所謂的這個青年研究人員他們的升遷跟他們獨立的一個研究的空間來避免所謂的世代的一個斷層請教一下院長這個中研院的體制啊"},{"start":509.389,"end":530.272,"text":"并不是说一个萝卜一个坑是我们这些资深的研究人员我们鼓励他做长期的规划完全不会影响到年轻学者的身迁或者是他的经费因为我们是给他机会来提出长聘并没有给他经费"},{"start":532.154,"end":559.253,"text":"我们这个制度设立的最主要目的是要能激励所有的人到了过了50岁45岁以上就开始规划你60岁的时候你怎么样提出一个达到二次长病人生学术的第二高峰的一个规划所以这是虽然是针对60到63但真正的用意是要带动所有"},{"start":560.054,"end":578.865,"text":"中生代甚至年輕學者長期研究長期規劃的一個風氣我想這個政策在啟動之後那中研院對於這樣子的一個不管是延攬或者是留任有沒有一個比較具體的成效的評估跟這個機制才剛開始有沒有預期什麼樣的一個目標那這個"},{"start":583.549,"end":592.127,"text":"很难讲说有预期据我们所知现在有不少学者对二次长聘制度是非常有兴趣是"},{"start":593.083,"end":622.388,"text":"好 那我想这次二次长聘其实我们是把这个刚刚有提到优秀人员我们是延聘到所谓的70岁那这个在制度上我们希望之后能够在有具体的一些成效跟数字的时候再提供给我们办公室来作为参考好 那另外我想请教的就是在我们的培育端的部分我想这个精英博士快速入学试行的一个计划其实这也展现这个中央医院对于国际情势快速的一个反应的一些具体的一个做法了"},{"start":623.369,"end":636.83,"text":"目前為止我們也要進行規劃第二波的招生第二波的招生有沒有預期是什麼樣的一個規模或什麼樣的一個標準在這個地方有沒有可以提供的"},{"start":638.453,"end":664.161,"text":"报告委员我们第二波其实是持续进行当中那现在主要的目标应该是在今年年底到明年年初这段时间因为这个是大部分学生会来申请博士班的时刻那我们会持续的开放让第二波不会中断在任何一个时段只要有好的人才进来我们都可以让他进到这个管道有没有希望他们是哪一些领域是我们现在比较缺少的或者是我们想要再加强的"},{"start":664.421,"end":684.538,"text":"我们现在其实三大领域就是人文甚至包括人文都有因为我们今年成立了第十四个国际研究生学程它是关注在东亚研究所以接下来我们会把人文社会跟自然科学跟生命科学都纳入考量好谢谢谢谢两位谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facea7b5a008633205355cb08f7d303ca8f4999b3dda73827680aa5b8daa13db02115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:51:25 - 10:57:23","影片長度":"00:05:58","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍編現比提升之具體方案及因應作法」，並備質詢。（11月12日及13日二天一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T10:51:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T10:57:23+08:00","duration":358,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-4-35-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.814718750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.607843750000001,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":56.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":240.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.48284375000003,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.83659375000002,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.94096875000002,"end":254.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.34534375000004,"end":259.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.95284375,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.98659375,"end":263.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.64846875,"end":315.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.99846875000003,"end":344.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.40346875,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.96784375000004,"end":357.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.56159375000004,"end":358.96221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.843,"end":34.262,"text":"市委官委好部長好我們賴總統上任之後不斷的一直在強調這個國防安全所以對美的軍購也不斷的在增加那除了早應該要交付的66架F16V戰機之外還有許多的飛彈系統等等武器但是呢如果要達到賴總統宣示的國防預算要達到GDP的5%恐怕未來天購的這個武器系統等等還會持續的增加但是呢本席看到這些武器啊"},{"start":34.582,"end":55.58,"text":"都一定要搭配訓練有素的國軍才能發揮最大的作用那請問部長我們不斷的去增加軍購武器越來越多 越買越多那有沒有可能會出現有武器卻沒有人會用的一個情況我想我們所有的相關的武器進來之後都要會做接裝的訓練"},{"start":56.923,"end":78.315,"text":"好 但是呢 訓練是一定要的啦但是當你啊 人員不足或是人不夠的時候啊一定是會有這個自然難行的地方啦那為什麼我這麼說呢 其實部長也清楚啦我們來看喔 現在國軍人力喔從110年到113年啊 都呈現的都是邊線比低而且提前退伍的人數也多喔"},{"start":78.755,"end":106.662,"text":"所以這個問題我相信社會部長不會沒有注意到那根據國防部提供給本席的資料我們有看到志願役的邊線比在110年的87.3%那降到來到113年的75.6%但是呢在今年總算是止跌回升那截至10月也來到了76%這是一個好的現象好的發展方向那我們再從國防部所屬的陸海空軍官校"},{"start":107.302,"end":115.112,"text":"國防大學理工管理政戰學院國防醫學院報考跟錄取的人數來看111年我們來看最少最低的2845個人報考那今年不錯也來到了4008人報考錄取率2067人"},{"start":125.004,"end":145.827,"text":"那在現在面臨小死化的問題我們這一些數據還能夠逆勢成長本身要說算是相當的不容易啦那今年開始不論是志願役的邊線筆開始止跌回升或者是相關的軍事院校的報考跟報道人數都增加那部長原因一定有很多有很多大家努力的原因在裡面"},{"start":146.428,"end":171.434,"text":"那本席對於國防部在提升國軍的這個住用環境也好或者是整建植物宿舍 提高伙食費等等還有提高各項的家籍喔這些努力 這些努力本席是肯定的喔但是呢 不是這些努力就可以去達到剛才以上數字現在越來越進步喔那本席認為呢 在今年六月份的時候我們立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例喔"},{"start":174.375,"end":193.623,"text":"把志願役的加給有每個月大概是一萬三到一萬五統一調升到三萬這個絕對是一個很大的誘因並且是一個很大的鼓舞所以我們看到在今年這個軍事院校的報名人數報到人數也都創下了新高那所以其實"},{"start":194.983,"end":216.297,"text":"我們看到這是誘因之一我相信院長不會說這個一點影響都沒有那從開始這個修法以來其實說真的有很多所謂的異男或者是有準備要投入這個國軍的這個行列裡面不管他本人或家長頻頻的都是跟本席或辦公室來詢問相關的修法"},{"start":216.837,"end":239.693,"text":"所以我想這個是起了很大的鼓舞作用但是現在行政院到現在遲遲不肯編列這筆預算部長您是國軍的大家長針對這樣的一個狀況您是不是應該要更來支持我們的加薪那是不是能夠請部長來跟主委院長再溝通一下那把大家的心聲來講出來盡快來依法編列明年為國軍加薪這個部分您能做到嗎"},{"start":240.686,"end":254.218,"text":"我想國防部的立場就是從不斷的來檢討這個國軍的待遇然後從整體規劃的立場來調整這個相關的家籍所以才會有從今年四月份開始會有五項的家籍"},{"start":260.623,"end":264.005,"text":"所以我們會整理的規劃來...我只是講 以上的我都肯定但是針對現在行政院還不肯編的這個預算的部分本席希望你能夠拿出一個作為國軍大家的態度那跟這個行政院來建言跟他反映這個心聲就這麼小一個心願因為我們看到招募國軍真的很不容易"},{"start":284.58,"end":301.11,"text":"那但是要留住這個人才更是不容易所以我們好不容易啊我們邊縣比剛剛有講嘛你們今天有提希望在年底拼80%我看按照現在的速度是可以的可是進來以後把它留住這才是更重要的一件事情那如果要把它留住喔我想喔"},{"start":301.59,"end":315.262,"text":"我們就要有各項不管是在薪資在環境都要去給他提升所以本席希望到現在為止行政院不肯編的預算您在在市這個國軍的大家長務必跟我們一起把這個預算來爭取到可以嗎"},{"start":316.467,"end":340.902,"text":"我剛剛已經說明了本部向來重視這個官兵的福利所以提升軍人待遇在114年向行政院增加了這個五項的價值那整體的來講我們也持續的會來進行整體的規劃那至於這個您講的這個軍人待遇條例的這個部分那麼行政院有它行政議題這個整體的一個考量那我們基於行政議題的原則"},{"start":341.682,"end":352.668,"text":"我們尊重行政對於國家行政議題 但是本席更希望你拿出一個態度堅實的國防建立在穩定的軍隊穩定的軍隊就要留住人才所以我們的態度就是我們會不斷的持續來調整然後來規劃提升軍人的待遇謝謝 希望您加油 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165381","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face664834a74c5a0b2f8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda738276803dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:46:17 - 10:54:40","影片長度":"00:08:23","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T10:46:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T10:54:40+08:00","duration":503,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":3.7097187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.03409375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.979093750000004,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.08284375000001,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.54971875000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.09409375000001,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.13034375000001,"end":121.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.68659375000001,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.61034375000001,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.54659375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.29721875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.13534375,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.64909375000002,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.50784375,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.17346875,"end":168.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.47721875000002,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.12659375,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.16846875000002,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.13409375,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.44346875000002,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.94784375,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.66909375,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.50784375,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.14034375000003,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.38034375,"end":226.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.45971875,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.08034375000003,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.11346875,"end":255.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.36659375000002,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.31346875,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.32159375000003,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.29159375,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.45159375000003,"end":293.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.31846875,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.35221875,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.34846875,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.69659375000003,"end":369.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.50471875000005,"end":408.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.15971875,"end":392.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.36034375,"end":403.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.55846875000003,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.08971875000003,"end":441.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.98659375000005,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.47659375,"end":461.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.30471875,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.48034375000003,"end":477.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.82971875000004,"end":483.46596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.60971875,"end":481.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.85846875000004,"end":488.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.95034375000006,"end":494.09721875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可能三萬年左右所以我們的疾病的形態就會不一樣那我們的因為大部分都是低射精的地位所以可能死亡率比較高所以就總統的那個2030年你說要降低到百分之三成的這個"},{"start":47.749,"end":72.043,"text":"預期呢 我相信這個原住民如果這個沒有所謂的專門的一個人在那邊把關的話我相信這個30%這樣的一個預期我覺得會有點質疑所以我希望部長能夠支持我這樣的一個修法也就是說希望我們這個我們的團體裡面不是把原住民變成是民間團體或者是說一般的那個類型我們是"},{"start":73.157,"end":90.498,"text":"基因獨特然後射精地位獨特的一個族群所以希望在癌症這個防治的部分裡面我們一起努力好不好跟委員報告我們很認同這個剛剛委員所描述到這個我們原住民跟一般的這個漢民漢人之間"},{"start":93.001,"end":114.422,"text":"在疾病特別是在我們的這個十大死因的分析裡面對比起來是不一樣的那即使是癌症的發生率也有差異所以確實應該要針對原住民族的健康要有特別的研究跟策略所以這個我們也在部裡面其實也有這個我們原住民族健康的諮議會"},{"start":115.763,"end":131.759,"text":"那全部大概幾乎啦多數是我們都有原名背景的好 謝謝部長那我們會把這個癌症這個議題也非常非常重視好 謝謝那我念這再一次的就是我們原卷法已經已經通過兩年 將近要兩年半了"},{"start":132.379,"end":147.634,"text":"那現在我們就看第二條第二項的規定就是說應該有專責單位可是我看到你們在第二頁的報告裡面有看到就是說將規劃成立行政法人國家醫療科技評估中心要請大院審議"},{"start":148.695,"end":167.96,"text":"我們看到這樣的時候會覺得說那我們原住民的專責單位已經原紀法已經通過兩年多了是不是要像我們原紀法一樣的擺在那邊二十年都不動那我說已經成立兩年多至少在民進黨執政說是把原住民看成很重要的夥伴的時候這個專責單位為什麼遲遲沒有看到呢"},{"start":169.121,"end":195.095,"text":"其實我們現在是有的我們有專門的這個課在處理這個我們有專責的單位在我們衛福部的這個護理及健康導師可能他的成績不夠高啦所以如果說我們就比如說要查資料啦比如說我們剛才所講的所謂的疾病的型態這些都沒有一個研究單位或者是一個專責單位在做的話其實我們在做這方面的一個處置的時候會覺得特別辛苦"},{"start":195.695,"end":220.352,"text":"那我們也知道園民會不是小型的行政院嘛他什麼都要管的話他怎麼管得到那麼多東西那我們就看我們南回醫院好了就是南回我們上次都有出席的那個追思會這是他的告別式之前我有去就是旁邊是現在的執行長就是高原醫師我是希望部長能不能承諾那裡是屬於我們"},{"start":221.553,"end":250.369,"text":"就是等於是離台北最遠的地方那你說所有的醫療的這些當然不可能說跟都市一樣不過如果就公部門的立場來講能不能至少支援他們的急診或者是說他們這個盤點那邊的醫療支援把它整合起來不然如果說半夜有人發燒或者說半夜有人需要插管這些比較緊急的事情都沒有人可以處理的話是不是覺得那邊就變成明明不是在島外變成像一個孤島一樣"},{"start":251.509,"end":273.517,"text":"跟委員報告對於南回的醫療我們一直在投入所以包含之前的這個大武衛生所我們把它協助它擴建變得像一個小型醫院的規模那麼這個裡面也包含我們一些新的遠距醫療的設備那甚至我們也提供了這個醫學中心的服務進駐高醫的團隊會去那邊看診"},{"start":275.598,"end":293.443,"text":"然後馬街啊我是希望有一些成效比如說你看它的使用率怎麼樣那它是24小時的那個急診都在運作所以急診的部分是沒有問題那我們也補助了那個放射檢查來協助說不用動不動都要往台東市送所以這個我們會一直在強化一直在OK"},{"start":293.843,"end":323.244,"text":"那就针对癌症的部分就是我们这次的主题就是我们的癌症心要部分我们大概也都知道全世界都是Lung Cancer无论是女性男性不过在原住民地区就不一样我们看一下资料后来我很辛苦的找到是高雄市卫生局它所呈现的这个两行字我们现在我们原住民大概就是如果以死亡率来讲的话是反而是消化系的站前面几乎都是消化系甚至是口腔癌才排第三跟我们国人的"},{"start":323.624,"end":338.484,"text":"一般國人的那個死亡的類別是不太一樣不過呢就心藥的來講你看如果就口腔癌的話反而他的那個只有10種的心藥嘛而且是他的生情啊什麼都非常的"},{"start":339.065,"end":360.072,"text":"繁殖 或者是說有些限制所以造成說我們的罹病的狀況不太一樣的時候其實我們族人在申請這些新藥的時候其實就遇到很大的難題甚至明明就射精低位已經很低了還要請加淡產我是覺得說這個如果是原住民發生癌症的那個類別跟大家不一樣因為你們大概都補足了肺癌跟"},{"start":360.772,"end":369.586,"text":"那个乳癌嘛可是我们疾病类型不一样的时候可是我们在那一端呢性药的申请就特别反而会觉得国家根本就没有帮到我的忙"},{"start":370.56,"end":392.859,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們全國的這個癌症死亡率排行的話呢這個口腔癌是第五位啦但是在這個原住民這邊的排名是比較前面那當然這個口腔癌最大的關聯性就是檳榔跟菸啦所以這個要從前頭的防治再加強那用藥的部分確實它"},{"start":393.9,"end":420.943,"text":"他現在的治療的新藥不是像前面這幾個像肺癌啦肝癌不斷的推出很多標靶藥物啦免疫治療那麼口腔癌的部分是比較少但是如果有藥我們一定也會希望在申請的限制上面不要太苛刻尤其是對原住民的那個條件好不好然後我們在可能部長還記得我在三月份的時候有替一個小朋友申請也就是台中榮總的那個ITP"},{"start":421.604,"end":441.105,"text":"那ITB後來我昨天知道要排這個議程的時候我特別又打電話給陳情人結果回去問說到底有沒有幫忙他說到目前為止也是沒有得到幫助也就是說那個父母親都是做勞力的然後他要照顧小朋友然後還要負擔這些自費的藥品"},{"start":442.866,"end":460.935,"text":"從三月份到現在又將近八個月過去所以我的意思是說像這種罕見疾病你們也在喊從一百一十幾現在一五年到一百九十已經增加了百分之六十四可是需要幫忙的人就在那邊等待可是求求恕無門"},{"start":462.335,"end":480.433,"text":"跟委員說明我們有去了解那因為一直不符合我們現在的用藥規定那我們會持續的關心那如果說這個適應症這個用藥的條件需要調整我們也請專家看一下因為這個就這個目前這個個案是不符合這個新藥的適應"},{"start":483.095,"end":500.981,"text":"沒錯啦就是說我們的個案少了可是如果一旦發生了還是有一些這麼多的條件明明看到這麼大的餅在那裡可是我卻分享不到的那種感覺希望部長可以體會好謝謝好謝謝委員我們努力好謝盧委員我們現在休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"165380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face13b0b7728d8c40e9fa47f864c5dfb45a999b3dda7382768056ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:41:13 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社福人員他堅守自盜比方說在台中和平區公所抓到的就是這樣他用這個因為沒有附審機制沒有去查查所以竟然把沒有資格的用他自己的父親自己的弟弟 炸零用這樣炸零的進來也是非常龐大那因為自首所以"},{"start":252.315,"end":267.45,"text":"把他減輕其罪都100多萬以上這樣子的例子我想其他我就不用再念了太多太多所以我是希望衛福單位在我們對低收中低收弱勢貧窮黑數的部分"},{"start":270.493,"end":291.09,"text":"我們甚至很多找不到的貧窮歸宿都要透過訪源去實際了解來補助他們來接住他們結果這樣的情況下是對的相對我們也要透過我們的這些訪源實際去了解去調查"},{"start":292.111,"end":308.225,"text":"有沒有假低收的因為假低收啊它佔據了我們社會的資源它也是擴大貧富差距的幫兇之一元兇之一啦因為它用到了我們社會"},{"start":309.986,"end":326.098,"text":"那個難得的大家辛苦擠出來的這些救助的金額所以我希望說在這個部分你們去落實好不好這個是這個情況你曉得嗎包委員我過去在台中擔任過社會局局長"},{"start":327.439,"end":348.897,"text":"委員剛才說的問題,我了解,尤其甚至還有一個那裡,大家的名字,大家的家都過去小弟那裡啦,類似像這個情況,我了解但是這個部分,我們在地方的社會局還有公所那邊,跟委員報告,我們現在都有那個所謂的資產調查社工都會去,當然就是說我們現在社會救助,大概主要三個要件嘛,動產不動產,還有誰算所得"},{"start":351.58,"end":352.361,"text":"我認為檢舉制度我們要做調整"},{"start":370.103,"end":386.066,"text":"你們一再的說這個檢舉啊必須實名具名檢舉是沒錯奇怪人家財稅單位人家有的匿名檢舉人家也是去查財啊不是嗎那你知道嘛現在社會上大家"},{"start":387.335,"end":401.892,"text":"大家就是不希望說把透露個人的資料出去所以是不是既然有這樣的情況有接到這樣的檢舉不管是實名匿名都應該去了解去調查好不好"},{"start":403.088,"end":429.001,"text":"那我們對低收入的補助本來社會的制度可能我們甚至在教育上面你看台大 清大 交大都有希望入學續日計畫這本來設計很好是要給中低收入的家庭能夠不要把他們的優秀的子弟們把他埋沒掉所以讓他們可以透過他們的努力"},{"start":429.961,"end":450.422,"text":"他們的聰明才智可以創造未來子弟們他們的新的命運可以去改變他家庭的命運這本來很好啊結果這樣的制度如果有假低收假中低收的話他們也會享用到這個制度的漏洞好不好"},{"start":450.962,"end":461.291,"text":"OK 好 鮑委員我們一定會來 這部分來交要你具體的做 過一陣子這個確實要精準 好不好 好 時間暫停 你請回OK 非常感謝委員 謝謝主席 我請我請財政部長 來 莊部長請委員好莊部長 老問題啦 我去年提到現在我不曉得這一年來這個成績做得怎麼樣就是說我們國內"},{"start":480.735,"end":493.124,"text":"受險業可運用資金有35兆那麼他們已經把這裡面的7成25兆拿去海外購買海外的債券基金那這有兩大風險一個戰爭風險一個"},{"start":495.766,"end":510.594,"text":"這個匯率的風險結果這兩個風險在這一年多來我們都碰到了我相信你都很清楚所以我當時我具體建議因為他們要去海外他們是說國內利息低國內市場小他們是用這兩個理由我是認為國內利息低低不能當他藉口因為國內利息低我承認"},{"start":521.48,"end":539.501,"text":"但是這些保險公司也是以這個低利息當作期望值去做成他的商品來賣給保險的民眾們所以利息低他不能當藉口好啦 另外一個他說市場小那市場小我認為這個就必須"},{"start":541.443,"end":551.819,"text":"總部長必須你財政部來去規劃這些規劃哪一些規劃是不是我們國內需要建設那的"},{"start":556.258,"end":581.927,"text":"資金 我們不要說每一筆都用預算大家變異形式預算編了就有不是 我們有自償性的建設喔 比方像社會住宅 比方說交通的各項建設啊我們鐵公路 高速公路的修建等等這一些 捷運 捷運等通車以後售票喔 那就有自償性嘛所以我們是不是來"},{"start":583.888,"end":612.324,"text":"設需要的交通建設基金設宅基金長照債券這些可以設這些需要的建設的債券公債然後鼓勵甚至具體要求這些保險公司把在海外的這25兆一部分一部分挪回來買我們的建設公債表示對我們台灣對我們自己國家有信心那這個部分你做了沒"},{"start":613.186,"end":638.079,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的指教行政院有一個兆元投資方案在這裡面很重要的就提出更大的案源所謂就是要有投資的標的那第二個部分就是要放寬保險業投資國內的公共建設跟基礎建設那金管會呢對於這相關保險業投資的相關的項目都有做法令的調整那我想這個部分我們可以把它羅列又提供給委員也就是說把法規鬆綁"},{"start":639.7,"end":647.242,"text":"讓保險業可以有更多的資金投資到國內的公共建設跟基礎建設而同樣的我們在這邊也釋出更大的一個案源讓他們可以投資那另外剛剛委員提到的就是發公債的部分對於有自償性的乙類公債那財政部這個部分也一直在請地方政府也好中央政府也好能夠發行乙類公債讓保險業可以也透過公債的模式來投入公共建設那這個部分大概有1494億大家從"},{"start":668.628,"end":694.334,"text":"今年也會發70億的民航 交通部民航局這邊會發所以委員您所提的部分 今年會發齁好 那今年現在已經11月了是 我也許可以把資料整理給委員你剛剛念的那些法條都很認真但是我再提醒你 其實為什麼你的重責大任在你身上因為中央政府建設公債條例第四條就寫得很清楚啦授權其實直接就是授權財政部只要你核准"},{"start":695.675,"end":707.476,"text":"報請行政院 那就可以發行了好不好所以重責大任就在財政部好 謝謝王委員 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驟降了將近30%這個是來自於立法院預算中心的報告也是向你們提出資料的索取之後得到的結果"},{"start":235.459,"end":250.74,"text":"所以我在講的是你們今天提供報告的時候的數據看起來很好但我們要問的是在志願役裡面軍官士官士兵分別的邊線比是多少因為他們的工作也是不一樣的"},{"start":252.062,"end":279.976,"text":"那每一個工作的階層它也有它相當的一個它的功能性的存在所以你把所有都換成撒尿牛丸的時候你看起來數據很漂亮但是當你把軍官士官士兵你分別去看的時候你看到從92.57一路下降到63.35這就是為什麼今天大家要討論邊線比的原因所以這部分我希望"},{"start":280.896,"end":293.273,"text":"可以去檢討不要每次給我們的數據這麼漂亮但實際上我們基層的軍官他們給我們的反應跟回饋都是一個人做好多人的工作"},{"start":294.349,"end":312.815,"text":"所以今天既然我也很感謝主席安排了這樣子一個機會去討論國軍邊線筆的問題但是你們就應該要好好的去重新檢視到底是哪邊出了很大的問題像這個表格就非常的清楚所以部長我想要問一下"},{"start":313.815,"end":342.291,"text":"在這個地方是不是我們在邊線筆的處理上面檢視上面不要用混在一起的情況可以針對軍官士官士兵他分別你要提升他的邊線筆你都要用不同的措施才有可能達到這是第一點等一下會給你們回答的時間好不好因為我今天還有一些議題第二個我要講的是空軍空軍每年退伍的人數也是逐漸增加的我們可以看一下"},{"start":343.72,"end":367.194,"text":"借其不適滿的持續走高從我們可以看到右邊這個是我們空軍弟兄提前退伍以及期滿不適的情況111年到112年到113年這是我們目前可以拿到的最新數據那呢期滿不適的人數從19到25到34那"},{"start":371.365,"end":373.028,"text":"一個是漲了32%再來是漲了36%平均每年漲幅是三成多"},{"start":380.868,"end":408.174,"text":"再來空軍部分如果我們先前討論的是F-16V 66架什麼時候到貨嘛那大家很關心但同時我們要考量我們有多少的飛官能夠在貨裝66架的F-16V之後再加上我們本來的機隊有能力有足夠的人數來飛這個飛機飛行員短缺的部分我們可以看到其實"},{"start":411.115,"end":438.623,"text":"這個飛行員短缺的部分我們看到這個當然在前一頁這是彭博社的英文這個數據他引用了2011年到2019年竟增加了21位的F16的飛行員那以目前的增加趨勢來說就左邊這一張你可以看一下那每一年要增加多少的F16的飛行員除了基本數之外如果只增加了兩到三位左右的話"},{"start":439.443,"end":465.325,"text":"那要再增加大概100多位那估計要多久的時間能夠完成否則即便我們希望能夠貨裝F-16V的66架再加我們原本的戰鬥機那又有分AB座艙一人座跟兩人座如果我們的飛官的人數不夠的話那我們整體的這個聯軍作戰的時候那買了這麼多的飛機那又要有誰開呢"},{"start":466.406,"end":483.654,"text":"所以是不是那我們先請這個國防部針對我剛剛兩個問題第一個就是我們空軍每年退伍的人數增加的原因以及我們飛行員短缺什麼時候能夠補足這兩個題目給我們一個回答先跟委員報告我們整個空軍的流營"},{"start":485.354,"end":512.584,"text":"因为这个数据您显示的这个数据到113我们跟113跟114年比较的话我们今年的流盈是增加了6.3%所以期满不蓄的人有多少期满不蓄的人总共是800多那也比这是113是800多总共是离的是800多但是我们今年的数字是只有400多比去年还要好了五成"},{"start":513.004,"end":542.077,"text":"你講的是整個三年的這個離退人數就全部全部吧我現在只問飛行員而已啊飛行員的部分這個數字這個是飛行員這不是全部飛行員的部分跟您報告我們現在就是這個月的飛行員的邊線比是98.4我們要問你邊線比我要問你的是離退的部分因為你看這個表格嘛因為114年不好意思因為我這邊我沒有辦法拿到數字那這些都是你們提供給我的那既然114年有新的數字你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":543.6,"end":547.972,"text":"114年提前退伍的人數以及期滿不遂的人數個別是多少"},{"start":549.746,"end":577.744,"text":"我們總共是一百零四元什麼意思啊那邊哪邊一百零四元嘛我們兩個是加起來是一百零四元這是不一樣的啊提前退伍跟期滿不續是兩個概念主席不好意思請他回答完這個問題我們就結束就請你告訴我一百一十四年我們的飛行員提前退伍的人數是多少期滿不續的人數是多少個資是多少請給我這個數據"},{"start":578.985,"end":584.412,"text":"我們總共是104下去之後跟你做一個分別分別的數字但是跟委員報告期滿不續不代表他退伍他只是沒有簽續扶益獎金我知道啊但是這個也是一個很重要的數據要做參考用的"},{"start":595.925,"end":624.981,"text":"因為大家都會去看說如果今天我只要跟你討論期滿不去我就不用提前退伍嘛所以我才說你要分開來看嘛包委還有一個很重要的因素我們會預判人事預判我們每一年離退的人數所以說我們每一年在招生飛行員的時候會補足未來所以說為什麼我們今天可以滿足到98.4邊線比的飛行員的原因也在這裡其實它的總數是並沒有下降"},{"start":626.625,"end":650.879,"text":"所以你要告訴我說提前退伍的人有多少下去我們之後參訪長就說下去了我知道因為我剛剛講完他又另外補充所以我還得再回答他好不好所以請再提供給我們然後也請注意到因為你現在講的所謂邊線比是你目前的部分那你有考慮到66架的F16V來了之後我們現在飛行員的人數是足夠的嗎"},{"start":651.639,"end":657.813,"text":"因為你算起來的話大概需要大概需要我看一下"},{"start":659.692,"end":681.91,"text":"大概需要大概100你們算是多少人你們算是需要多少人就是我們F-16B整個66架來了之後包含現在的這整體的編裝的話私下報告我們編裝下去再跟您報告但是跟委員報告剛剛跟您報告沒問題你私下跟我報告就好112年開始就做人事推估包含這66架的飛行員的補充"},{"start":682.43,"end":690.908,"text":"因為很多人都很擔心說我們整體的這個飛行員的人數因為提前退伍離退的人其實是多的這點你還是要多注意好不好"}]}},{"id":"165378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facebf94ee1f40f68873e72a0011d4bca9f9999b3dda7382768007496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:34:16 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廖院長請廖院長廖院長早好 院長早"},{"start":18.53,"end":22.254,"text":"我們看到的是賴總統他前幾天主動的在頒發總統科學獎的時候提到的是333的諾貝爾獎的這個計畫那剛才有委員提到的這個問題你也說到的是事前沒有跟賴總統沒有跟你詢問這個事情"},{"start":37.532,"end":45.14,"text":"那我下面想要問的是可是在台灣橋樑計畫當中有沒有在這個目的上面是要培育到諾貝爾獎的這樣得主的目的"},{"start":50.475,"end":79.276,"text":"我们主要是希望全面提升台湾的科研水准倒不是针对要生产几位超级巨星我认为诺贝尔奖虽然可以提振全民全国对科学研究的兴趣跟支持但是更重要的是提振台湾全体的整体的科研的实力这更重要"},{"start":79.861,"end":98.199,"text":"好 这非常好就是一个细水长流一个长远的计划是的那第二个问题想要请问的是您刚才也在回答了委员的部分有提到的四项的一个条件那四项事实上是从一个高级就是所谓的科研的部分去讲可是这个部分是"},{"start":98.84,"end":118.911,"text":"基層在所謂教育的狀況那基層的部分我想提供請您補充這個意見包括說如果您也知道的是教育當中目前的教師荒跟steam的這個資質特別的缺乏的情況那您是不是在針對在基礎教育這邊提供您的意見對於在未來的連續到一個高教的或是在科技研究方面"},{"start":119.946,"end":142.995,"text":"我想教育特别是高教跟研究方面我们是很多要改进的空间教师的人数仅是其中一项是不是最重要的我也不敢讲应该是教学的方式跟怎么样启发学生鼓励学生而不是教师人数的多少"},{"start":144.218,"end":162.31,"text":"我想这个对我刚才的其实你可能就是还在重视到所谓的科研的领域我们目前在教育领域上面的科学的技术的跟engineer的部分还包括数学的部分的人才是非常的缺乏是因为教育的环境整个不好这部分"},{"start":163.311,"end":182.146,"text":"希望說當然那個廖院長你也會注意到這個高教的這一邊或是國民教育這部分的時候因為沒有的人才現在的二三十年三四十年的培育的話就不會有現在的一個好的科研人才出現這部分請你要留意那我們現在在講到第二個問題上面是包括的是"},{"start":182.887,"end":206.983,"text":"中研院也有提到的AI的研究推廣部分當然有提到在AI的研究的人才培育可是現在的AI辦公室推動辦公室當中也有對智慧化的行政革新也提供了這樣的一個方向為了提升行政人員的AI工具的掌握能力我因此想要詢問113年跟114年度的時候包括未來的現在計劃的115年的預算規劃大概花了多少預算"},{"start":212.426,"end":220.255,"text":"那如何去評估院內的行政人員AI素養的一個技能的提升我們請那個右單位回答"},{"start":222.202,"end":250.641,"text":"委員好 我是中研院資訊服務處陳林志處長我們針對院內AI的行政的提升我們分兩方面第一方面是環境的建置我們在今年還有明年我們目前編列的預算當中我們有特別編列了一些算力的擴充希望來支援我們院內行政AI化的這些各項服務大概多少錢 預算我們編列了將近兩億多兩億多那怎麼樣去確認這樣的一個能力有提升呢"},{"start":251.381,"end":272.87,"text":"第二部分的话,我们其实从去年开始,我们每一季都有系列式的,来跟全院的同仁来介绍一些AI的最新的工具发展,还有使用的技术。我们在我们院内的行政上,像是会议记录的宣读,还有会议记录的逐字稿,以及一些…"},{"start":273.57,"end":303.33,"text":"有没有一些数字量化的部分因为你要成两亿多预算投入方面可是必须要进行前我希望有一些量化的数据肯定出来这个部分或是实际的成果我们的这个逐字稿工具我们从今年上线以来到现在如果我印象没记错的话应该已经累积了两万多分钟因为我把它换算过来的话已经节省了几百小时的人力详细的数字可以事后再补充给委员"},{"start":303.59,"end":312.109,"text":"好 謝謝那當然我們希望市評估說立法院有沒有建立AI的系統生態這個事實上是一個非常好的我也知道說你們有包括這個在"},{"start":315.668,"end":341.93,"text":"行政總署這邊也提供了他們這樣的一個這樣的合作我希望這個能夠加強希望說之後的因為時間因素就是說這部分在我們本辦公室來做一下報告或是提供書面資料可以 謝謝另外我提到的是包括淨零碳排在預算治理的部分我們看到是中研院在淨零的部分有五支箭當然我們看到國科會跟經濟部也都有提到那今年的明年預算部分還多了13億的情況"},{"start":342.691,"end":359.401,"text":"他特別的是在有的在去探燃青跟升職探會這部分是非常重要是兩個中研院跟國科會有共同的部分那因此我們就想要問的是說有沒有一個科研的這樣的一個"},{"start":362.183,"end":374.256,"text":"計轉的就是說就是我們可以看到這邊是有跨部會的協作機制喔那這個跨部會的協作就是在右上角在那邊跨部會的協作機制是怎麼樣進行的有每年或在編預算或是在做分工嗎"},{"start":375.565,"end":394.765,"text":"我想在预算方面有稍微分工但是很多东西是需要衔接就像你这个棒球外野手跟中外野手跟这个防守区域会有重叠的部分所以我们是这样子的分工但是众议院是一个实际的研究单位"},{"start":395.585,"end":424.268,"text":"国科会跟经济部比较是这个发放经费当然他们下面有法人单位来做研究那我们这所有的全国各单位包括法人跟学界跟中文院都是经常在交流经常在共同研发所以这个是一个经常性的交流所以不需要有什么特别的一个机制就是这样就是一个非常例行性的活动在进行对我们任何时间都在交流"},{"start":424.428,"end":447.84,"text":"所以不會有重疊的部分嗎因為我們看到的是這些經費上面包括我們剛才看到的這些所以你們的協作機制是不是有把一個協作機制就是一個表類似的一個或是辦公室程序上面做出來我們在國會有一個近鄰推動辦公室的一個平台我是共同召集人所以透過這樣的機制"},{"start":449.241,"end":476.496,"text":"我們跟國客會有很密切的討論跟協調所以這方面確實是在進行的好 希望說這個部分的協調機制當中如果說院長你有參與的時候是不是把你大概這一年來的部分就是開了幾次會這樣的一個包括有些成果部分跟我們辦公室來做一個書面報告提供這樣的書面報告可以好 謝謝"},{"start":478.433,"end":480.465,"text":"另外我們繼續再看到還有一個的問題是在"},{"start":482.628,"end":511.182,"text":"量子基地這部分看到的是量子基地在預算中心的報告當中指數在113年之後量子設施的預算保留金額高達3億9千多萬元那這邊呢他最主要是因為無塵室主體的工程未完成那請您提供一下在114年之後量子科技基地的這個建置時程為什麼還因為這樣子的一個情況導致量子的這個基地沒辦法就是沒辦法如期完還延宕兩年"},{"start":513.594,"end":538.011,"text":"我們請業務單位回答委員好我是關鍵中心主任李超煌量子基地的建設主要的延宕是在它的無塵室建設因為這個無塵室跟一般的半導體用的無塵室是不一樣它是超導體用的無塵室所以在裡面的很多工項還有作業的方法會跟傳統的一般的半導體無塵室不太相同那麼國內的廠商對這方面經驗不太夠"},{"start":541.013,"end":547.83,"text":"那導致我們的施工單位跟建造單位常常有很多意見上的不同那今年可以完成嗎"},{"start":549.362,"end":571.15,"text":"今年剩下两个月事实上厂商已经报竣工了厂商已经在九月半报竣工但是你也知道这个竣工完了以后我们就要查验查验还会有一些要修改还要再补充所以目前都还在做这个最后的这个所以明年应该有机会把它完成明年应该是可以完成这也是中原非常重要的一个像算力这部分的一个影响"},{"start":572.724,"end":596.719,"text":"這個吳承士是製造量子位元的晶片我是說因為量子基地這部分的關係很重要那我們繼續再看到的是關於國際人才的發展我們看到的是在辦理國際研究生的學程這部分最新的你們的報告呈現出來是目前有622位學生在學"},{"start":598.672,"end":624.111,"text":"全體學生的人數六成是外籍人 外籍生那他多回去到國際知名的學術研究機構去進行教育或是研究工作那可是還有四成是本國人嘛 對不對是的那如果四成是本國人因為報告當中並沒有揭露到即使是外國學生那這個問題是本國人的他的留台比例或是就業去向你沒有揭露是不是再做一下說明"},{"start":625.632,"end":646.313,"text":"首先跟委员说明一下我们TIGP生产出来是博士很多博士生的下一步是到国外去做博士后特别是我们鼓励他说要有国际观所以他去国外进行博士后的研究"},{"start":647.114,"end":667.518,"text":"並不代表說他沒有留在台灣而且我們也不希望說這部分人就永遠被我們綁在台灣所以他只是他的訓練過程中的一環他必須要到國外去所以這個只是一個他整個訓練完成人才培育他這部分但是你的資料要呈現出來揭露才能讓我們立法院在審查預算的時候有所平均"},{"start":668.058,"end":688.192,"text":"因為這個流財也是不是說短期的事情那之後十年二十年他們會在哪裡貢獻這個很難在短期的數據上看出來所以請委員要了解這樣的事情好那如果是這樣的話就請你把它說清楚就是目前的中線規劃因為這個部分我們在預算的審查的時候就變得非常重要的一環"},{"start":688.872,"end":710.883,"text":"好,那在下面的部分,包括的是很快的就是在選送人文及科技精英的出國計畫當中,預算中心也提出來說博士生連續三年掛齡,大部分都是用於在短期的一個差旅部分,那這部分是不是有一個比較長期的,就是包括人才培育上面,是不是可以有長期的研修基金,甚至保留給持個博士生做長期研究?"},{"start":712.301,"end":736.13,"text":"報告委員 國際處說明其實這個連續三年掛零那個是疫情期間但是疫情之後其實我們已經都達到設定的目標了所以這一點我想應該請委員要放心我們現在的推進是已經有超過我們本來預期的目標所以明年我們會把這個基金的經費再往上修來支持更多的博士生可以有出國進修的機會"},{"start":736.75,"end":751.914,"text":"希望就是這個部分的資訊是因為現在沒有看到所以必須要再更新以後書面不出來呈現出來那最後的部分呢就是跟講出來就是說還有一個計轉的這個收益的回饋制度你看到呢計轉的從111年244件到113年156件那權利金的收入下降4成因為"},{"start":757.975,"end":772.847,"text":"有學歷經下降之後但是也包括建樹的下降是不是把這個計轉的收益的回饋制度是不是可以回饋到研究人員或是包括博士後的人員才能讓他的這個技術的人才留住更多有沒有這樣的考慮"},{"start":773.447,"end":789.022,"text":"是 包委員我是基短處處長邱文聰我們本來就有一個這樣的回饋的制度那這個對象不限於研究人員也包含這個博士後跟一般的已經有了本來就有了好 那因為在那你的報告當中應該是沒有呈現出來"},{"start":790.063,"end":815.343,"text":"好 我们会再跟委员补充这部分的资讯好 因为想说今天是最新的报告能够呈现出来那最重要的后来就是跟要强调的是说目前的研究的人才是非常重要的那中研院也扮演了这样子的一个很重要的功能所以希望把这样的一个科研人才的培育就是在最高阶的科研人才部分扮演好的角色好 那就各位辛苦了 谢谢好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165377","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face95de04c84f6d2ebb8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda73827680f61d29bd310f8b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:32:16 - 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我們有請部長王委員好"},{"start":11.806,"end":40.802,"text":"部長好 部長這個是你上任之後遇到第二件的這個史安事件那這個分譜擬彈從11月4號這個就被驗出來了一直到11月9號你們發了一個新聞稿11月10號衛福部才對外開了一個記者會讓消費者知道說這一個要去注意家裡冰箱你買到的是I47這樣的一個號碼就不要吃"},{"start":41.562,"end":59.741,"text":"你認為你們整個的處理從11月4號驗出來到11月10號才正式的開記者會讓所有的民眾都知道消費者無辜多了幾天把毒雞蛋吃下肚你們這樣的做法有沒有檢討的空間要不要檢討"},{"start":60.818,"end":74.433,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個就如同這個手板上面所呈現的是每一個步驟都很積極的在進行每一天都有進度所以他是先從你說你很積極所以沒有改進的空間100分"},{"start":75.874,"end":97.376,"text":"不敢說100分因為畢竟還是有國人吃下去的我們都覺得不安心所以公佈的速度有沒有調整的空間有空間要改善對我們會去這個檢討我現在就告訴你應該怎麼改善第一個你們11月7號就已經要求通路停止販售了為什麼沒有同步"},{"start":98.397,"end":107.757,"text":"就是告訴大家而且當你11月7號同時要通知通路的時候為什麼你不開記者會不告訴大家就默默低調進行"},{"start":109.11,"end":130.667,"text":"是為什麼這不是應該要趕快讓消費者知道嗎因為今天除了通路下架完之外很多消費者是之前就買回來放在冰箱每天吃一顆早上吃一顆水煮蛋好健康你如果越早講他在冰箱裡面的雞蛋他可以拿出來對號碼然後不用吃下毒不是嗎"},{"start":132.412,"end":149.107,"text":"這個要不要改進要不要改進 告訴我就好好 以後要求你們改進這個是消費者之的權利未來的話我們就是查到哪裡公佈到哪裡當然我們也要考慮到不要讓民眾恐慌"},{"start":150.067,"end":177.383,"text":"會影響到整個所有的合法的這不是恐慌的問題是你怎麼公告的問題你可以告訴消費大眾說我現在已經查到一批那個批號是什麼民眾現在如果有疑慮你可以選擇暫停使用但民眾有知的權利他自行去判斷他要不要繼續使用嘛那你們這一次我覺得做錯的地方就是你們沒有充分告知讓民眾提早知道"},{"start":178.143,"end":206.721,"text":"在日本在韓國他們都是採用最快的速度因為消費者有資格權利啊而且他們發布的方式韓國他還用緊急通訊系統在你的手機裡面馬上就看到韓國他們的這個系統緊急災難警報系統是很厲害的馬上就會看到說什麼貨號什麼時候這一批貨品廣為周知告知消費者這個是我覺得在這次食安事件處理的時候衛福部應該還要再改進的地方這是第一點"},{"start":207.702,"end":229.84,"text":"那第二點是這一點我認同這個委員的看法所以就是我們要精準不要傷及無辜那在精準的資訊下那麼儘快的揭露讓消費者你不是說所有雞蛋不能吃而是你告訴他哪一個批號有問題哪一個蛋場對不對好那這一個我要求你們日後改進第二個是我們要料底從寬預底從嚴"},{"start":232.782,"end":255.588,"text":"那在這一次你發現這一個批號有問題之後為什麼沒有擴大再去抽驗市場上面的散彈你們有沒有抽跟委員報告就是說這一個例行性的今年度大概是查了461批那這461批裡面就包含了散彈有幾件"},{"start":258.509,"end":262.471,"text":"我接下來要追問的就是署長有對外明確的擔保說這一次的珍普尼彈 液彈是完全沒有問題的"},{"start":275.598,"end":304.557,"text":"我接下來要問的就是說署長你為什麼敢掛保證就是因為這一個蛋廠的所有的蛋他通通都是上了這個超市通路嗎沒有留到散裝蛋嗎沒有是整批的出去嗎那如果我們現在的管理我們現在只能追蹤到超市的進到市場的他其實是整批整籃子的蛋買回去就是你真的可以百分之百保證"},{"start":305.578,"end":333.524,"text":"沒有任何的早餐店沒有任何的其他的小吃單是買到這一家這一個畜牧場的蛋嗎這邊跟委員做一點點補充說明那這部分我們後來想辦法趕快修正所以我們把一些這個蛋散蛋上面每個框上面都有他的QR code我知道有QR code我現在在問你的問題是你怎麼知道這些蛋沒有流通到其他的市場小吃點"},{"start":335,"end":354.992,"text":"你敢掛保證 你說沒有其他的液彈有問題你會不會話講太快了 署長報告委員 我們那時候呢其實我們的資訊裡面這家彈廠裡面沒有特別提供所謂液彈的處理的因為液彈有時候會但他有提供散彈啊對 他有提供散彈這部分那散彈後續的追蹤你怎麼確保他沒有進到其他的液彈市場呢"},{"start":356.253,"end":376.238,"text":"除非你今天是已經有反向去所有的這個液氮廠去追查反向追查有沒有來源是來自這一家的畜牧廠有嗎也沒有嗎所以這樣的保證是沒有意義的這個署長我也是要提醒你就是說你我發現你現在對外回應有些話都講得太滿太快"},{"start":377.748,"end":389.465,"text":"就是你可能擔負不起這樣的一個保證因為到目前為止坦白講你們能保證使用分譜你的只有彰化的這一家蛋廠嗎"},{"start":390.922,"end":412.455,"text":"你們敢保證嗎 部長 署長你們敢保證嗎報告委員這部分其實已經啟動跨部會了所以農政單位的針對蛋廠裡面的一些用藥的他們其實積極的啟動了農盟也會跟他們一起協作對啊 他現在才要去查而已但是你的保證已經掛在前面了而且前面話還講太快說我們不需要再去查其他的地方"},{"start":414.142,"end":441.83,"text":"處理危機不是這樣子處理的所謂預敵重演就是我從這個單一的案場發現了這樣的情況之後我除了我的畜牧場我要開始啟動其他的畜牧場一樣加嚴的處理之外韓國當時爆發分譜就是這樣我全部都查查完一遍讓國人安心因為我們不放心是不是只有這單一牧場違法使用如果按照很多這種資深的基農還有動保團體他們指出來的"},{"start":443.618,"end":471.427,"text":"分譜你還有人偷偷在用啊那偷偷在用真的只有這單一的廠嗎因為主要是他防治這個機師的效果他的效果特別好又比較便宜這個就是重點了那如果你不敢保證的時候我覺得我建議官方在說法上面不要太過於自滿你講到百分之百萬一不是呢萬一這普查下去還有另外一家廠有的時候你的保證"},{"start":472.959,"end":492.935,"text":"變成完全沒有意義所以我覺得應該是實事求是吧 欲敵從嚴吧你們今天農業部沒有來我希望你們回去在那個會議裡面我們要求的是農業部你應該即刻就要展開很快速的再去清查一遍比照2017年的芬普尼事件你這樣才能讓國人安心嘛"},{"start":493.615,"end":516.222,"text":"他如果源頭沒有問題你後端市場你目前查驗的你才可以說因為源頭沒有問題我們查到沒有問題到目前為止才能定調是單一事件但你通通都還沒有做以前就先宣告這只是單一事件這都是錯誤的就像農業部部長他對外說這是環境污染可是隔壁的農田飄過來了是嗎現在查出來"},{"start":517.322,"end":540.115,"text":"就是有噴灑嗎就是這麼高的一個濃度就是有噴灑所以我要求的就是你們要預底重演預底重演還有一項是你們食藥署可以做除了源頭是農業部該做的預底重演還有你們該做的是什麼就是應該還要再去散彈市場再加鹽再多抽幾個讓大家安心可不可以"},{"start":541.111,"end":560.474,"text":"這邊跟委員說一下報告給一點點就是說針對這樣子的事件我們長期的追蹤事實上是從我知道你長期的追蹤這個話你已經講過很多遍了但是署長我提醒你因為現在就是爆發了驗到了嘛當你驗到的時候所謂預計重演就是你不要以為只有這單一"},{"start":561.815,"end":582.638,"text":"他可能市場上面可能還有所以你的密度再加強再多高密度的稽查你這也是讓大家放心啊就是說宣示你食藥署的行動啊就是我展開播出了要求農業部源頭你要把關好之外後端市場你在加密加嚴在這一陣子多查幾個查出來也是沒有"},{"start":583.599,"end":613.039,"text":"大家消費者就覺得很安心會更相信是單一個案在買蛋的時候可以更放心我要講一個為什麼我在建議裡面好你們去研究看看我們現在有這個蘇蘇果的質樸快篩中心有29所我們對於蘇果是高密度的檢驗而且是常態化的檢驗為什麼因為天天都要吃蘇果但是雞蛋呢雞蛋我沒有我們對雞蛋的管理相對是比較鬆散的為什麼因為可能"},{"start":613.719,"end":629.972,"text":"我也不知道為什麼 可是他檢驗的方法是比較困難但是後來這一些蔬果質樸於快檢中心出來之後的確讓國人安心了很多我希望這個署長你很自豪是你是學者學者好好去研議一下怎麼樣這個蛋品的檢驗"},{"start":631.033,"end":655.409,"text":"我們一定都要送到中央續產中心嗎像這樣的一個比對有沒有更好的儀器跟設備我們可以加快就是把它驗出來因為這一次我不曉得是你們的責任還是農業部的責任2019年農業部已經講了驗這個分譜泥之前是拖拖拉拉一個禮拜後來他說要48小時就要驗出來結果這一次又沒有你們是10月27號開始驗對不對"},{"start":657.63,"end":681.938,"text":"送樣本是什麼時候因為他是常態的是彰化幫忙抽完之後送到中央續產會報告直接告訴我們我們就馬上所以花了多少天的時間他們第一波是告訴我們我們回出來的報告是在7天10月27號到10月15號要花7天才能出來嗎第二波其實因為是緊急個案啦前面是常態的嘛還有很多要驗其他的東西所以這次第二波驗他其實在48小時內就符合48小時嗎的確是有"},{"start":683.499,"end":705.481,"text":"好我最後建議的這個比照蔬果質樸開拆中心將蛋品檢驗常態化提高抽驗比例這個讓部長來回答你覺得有沒有可能去研議當然剛剛您提到幾個重點我都蠻認同就是說我們要加強這個風險的溝通啦當然是要讓民眾安心但是我們也要"},{"start":706.181,"end":722.307,"text":"提醒民眾應該注意哪些事情這個是我們會來改善的但是呢要不要擴大抽菸這個事情因為今年這個情況跟2017年的時候已經不同因為2017年之前是沒有這個常態性例行性抽菸"},{"start":723.027,"end":749.267,"text":"那而且在爆發那個事件之後農業部也加強了這個畜牧場的管理然後我們之後每年大概都四五百件一路抽下來所以今年才抽出這一件那當然我們不能夠完全放心啦所以我們現在也配合檢調跟農業部繼續往上再查如果有發現有橫向的情形的時候我們就會再繼續就是查到哪裡我們就驗到哪裡所以我們會持續調整這樣"},{"start":751.368,"end":763.361,"text":"好我希望這邊其實今年就是下半年我們還沒有結束所以我們的計畫持續抽菸還有的我們一定會持續公告給全國人去了解你們可不可以針對龍氏的蛋C的"},{"start":765.22,"end":786.609,"text":"強化他的頻率可以嗎就是我們抽菸的時候就是挑那個蜥蜴的作為重點好不好因為是他的飼養方式他太密集然後比較容易有這個蟲產生然後所以他的用藥的頻率可能就會比較高所以你們調整那個比例好不好針對龍氏的部分"},{"start":787.209,"end":814.155,"text":"提高那個抽氧比例我們需要的食安是真的讓大家可以安心所以我希望這個衛福部你們也責無旁貸特別已經成立了食藥署應該在這一塊態度要更積極而不是用學術化的話語就是來回應吃一百顆雞蛋都沒有關係署長下次不要再講這種事情有關一百顆是有關係的不能這樣吃法對還沒中毒之前就那你怎麼會蹦出這一句呢"},{"start":815.61,"end":819.473,"text":"好啦 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現在我們要請教財政部長財政部長"},{"start":288.378,"end":293.42,"text":"剛剛有李議員要問到說財化法現在是不是有行政院版即將推出會的"},{"start":295.103,"end":315.012,"text":"裡面有沒有包括對16條之一公式的一些調整我們是重新規劃讓它在水平分配更為合理所以你行政院的版本未來會不會比現在這些受到16條之一公式錯誤影響這幾個縣市你們的版本有沒有讓未來這幾個縣市可以得到的統籌分配更多"},{"start":316.094,"end":335.78,"text":"我们的公司会做一个合理的分配不合理的分配所以保证这几个受到这个16条之一受影响的县市他可以更得到更多的合理分配16条之一这样的一个分母的问题事实上每个县市或者问你行政院法以后会不会比只修16条之一你觉得更好"},{"start":336.761,"end":350.161,"text":"當然好謝謝請回是來我們現在請那個還有經濟部跟國發會來那個先請經濟部次長來我們往下看今天我的主題來了很快的音樂時間有限往下看"},{"start":351.089,"end":374.839,"text":"好來那個次長 何次長傳產是不是變成傳產在第二季電子業跟傳產是兩樣情是不是經濟部有沒有看到這個現象有嘛那你們哪些政策工具我們來看一下你們政策工具融資給他低利貸款給他還款斬鹽地租的減免租金的減免水電房租運費行銷費用你們都有補貼哪一個最有效"},{"start":376.539,"end":402.119,"text":"第一個融資的部分你覺得第一個有效我告訴你通通有效但是通通都不夠用往下看四大基金能做什麼來四大基金高富主委四大基金能做什麼是不是這些穩健股市以基金投資收益來支持產業多元佈局執行各種策略投資是不是這樣子基金有他的運用的對那你瞭解他們目前持股是不是以半導體資通金融這個龍頭股為主"},{"start":404.208,"end":430.036,"text":"我覺得他們會按照那個他在股市在那個我了解我了解大概是這樣的情況往下看那麼協助傳產有一個叫CITD這是經濟部負責對不對是不是說寫的製造業跟技術服務他上限是200萬研發是1000萬他目前呢補助上限低其實很短只有一年規模小是不是這樣子是那麼是從到90年到110年4655萬投入多少錢"},{"start":433.953,"end":446.049,"text":"不到60億啊這是不是傳產可以得到的是不是 目前傳產可以得到嗎還有沒有其他傳產可以得到往下看來 產業製造基金有沒有這個東西這是誰負責的"},{"start":448.067,"end":472.126,"text":"來 國發會你說你們怎麼進行產業再造基金我們有投資一個VC然後他是要協助那個傳產產業做轉型是不是創業投資事業可以申請我們沒有這個基金的名稱我們沒有這個基金只是有一個VC是不是以創業投資為主是好 那現在問題來了現在面臨轉型困境遇到了這個關稅衝擊的他不是要新創他不是要創業投資 他要轉型何市長是不是這樣子"},{"start":475.628,"end":502.943,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一個我們投的這個VC不是火星創它是投資上市櫃公司裡面需要上市櫃公司更好目標是30億上市櫃公司何市長請你告訴高副主委我們的傳產有多少是在上市櫃何市長請說我們的中小企業你過去來自於中小企業的照顧的這個團體我們是不是幾成都是中小企業九成以上嗎大概九成八以上九成八"},{"start":503.863,"end":527.57,"text":"高副主委2%的上市會可以得到委員我跟您報告我剛剛講的只是這一檔基金那我們國發基金非常多元的投資方式我後面就有來看一下國發基金投資的業務融資的業務其他業務有這麼多是不是是的沒有冤枉嘛都幫你寫出來你們這邊有個百億主題投資對他是包括資本支出的融資周轉的融資利息的補貼信用的保證有沒有"},{"start":528.604,"end":551.099,"text":"這是融資業務對 都有嘛那你們福島轉型的對象就不限定上市貴了嘛對不對是 當然很好 就這樣往下看所以有沒有個天使創投目前國發基金有在對新創事業有這樣的一個基金對不對有 我們現在我們的額度增加到100億對 這是對新創嘛對新創嘛 傳產要轉型的看得到這不是對他的 對不對"},{"start":552.1,"end":565.309,"text":"是另外的嗎對 另外的有好 往下看所以我認為新創產業需要天使基金國發已經準備好了傳統產業的轉型需要轉型投資資金何市長你同不同意"},{"start":567.576,"end":586.09,"text":"跟委員報告 其實國際基金給經濟部的100億裡面我們其實也有做這方面的投資這方面 哪方面 傳產對不對轉型對不對 大概多少我們經濟部有製造業 有服務業 也有中小企業總共有300億我告訴你 現在傳產分兩種 私私有兩種"},{"start":590.853,"end":604.144,"text":"傳傳有的他真的是老闆說我要收起來為什麼 坐不下去了可能我是連特登連我的用地都不是符合的我要去特登特登要輔導我我看關稅衝擊我坐不下去了我們有沒有輔導退場會不會"},{"start":605.865,"end":631.614,"text":"福島退場之後 勞動部 衛護部要接手啊要照顧所有人家的勞工啊但是另外有一些 他不是沒有競爭力他只是撐不過去這個延東他已經看準了未來的市場投資佈局 買了機器 擴充了土地 借了錢現在美國市場既有手上的訂單縮減了未來的訂單還在努力市長換成是你 你會怎麼辦"},{"start":632.95,"end":642.389,"text":"把新買的廠房賣掉先還新界的錢把員工就叫他們回家吃自己你覺得要面臨轉型的企業主他會這樣做嗎"},{"start":644.229,"end":669.851,"text":"如果是你你會這樣做嗎跟委員報告其實員工是企業最重要的資產一般來講企業主基本上都船產顧了200到300萬嘛是其實企業主當然珍惜他的員工嘛對10年20年縱使是二三十人的船產都有二三十個家庭靠他照顧對不對所以這些船產的企業主需要什麼需要經濟部跟國發的支持往下看"},{"start":670.712,"end":694.914,"text":"是不是我可以來請經濟部跟國外思考一下我們在國發基金給傳產的部分現有的投資有生物科技文化創意半導體航太未來如果傳產部分如果有是投資而非借貸投資而非借貸政府來參與請問兩位請問高副主委你認為這樣的方向符不符合我們支持傳統中小企業來轉型"},{"start":696.331,"end":710.107,"text":"我們國發基金其實一直以來都用不同的管道支持傳產的轉型升級那譬如說我們剛剛講到次長講到了我們匡列一個三個百億基金還有我們很多的VC還有直投我們都支持傳統產業轉型升級"},{"start":711.809,"end":736.275,"text":"好我們看一下很快的30秒回顧一下下一頁台積電成立初期我們開發基金的投資方式現在台積電我們政府的持股就成為我們國發基金協助其他新創產業的一個基礎往下看所以隱形冠軍遭遇寒冬產值減少訂單不配看他借不到錢市長要不要支持這些隱形冠軍渡過難關"},{"start":737.795,"end":745.966,"text":"當然要好 高副主委我們是不是比照我們護國神山來守護傳產的隱形冠軍要不要"},{"start":746.856,"end":774.057,"text":"我們一直都在這樣做所以最後兩個要求請看我就不再重述主席站起來了希望我們國發會跟經濟部攜手幫助這些不是上市櫃中小企業占我們九成八的中小企業當中有未來競爭轉型能力的協助他們度過寒冬用你們手中的政策工具增加在我們傳產中小企業的身上好不好好謝謝兩位謝謝主席謝謝總委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"165375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facedff38ccab7313e315cb08f7d303ca8f4999b3dda7382768092d0a82c07ca83cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:31:16 - 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主席有請顧部長是因為"},{"start":11.192,"end":40.135,"text":"部長早 本席也很肯定剛剛您在詢答的時候尤其是陳俊宇委員特別上來補充的時候有提到就是有關於現在國軍在協助宜蘭的救災的部分不會讓第一線的官兵承擔這種就是在救災過程中所造成的民間的這些損失那麼這個會有相關的預算尤其是有重要的預算來做協助因為這個部分我相信最近這個極度氣候之下極端氣候之下真的台灣"},{"start":40.755,"end":44.177,"text":"還有可能很多的這個災變需要國軍地修第一線的搶救喔那麼剛剛我們特別都有提到有關於這一次我們報告的是這個國軍的邊線筆提升的方案喔那麼當然除了薪資的部分加擠的部分之外其實本席會認為啦"},{"start":57.023,"end":78.714,"text":"今天從軍我覺得榮譽感以及心理上面是最重要的我知道這個題目已經不是新的題目了但是我其實蠻關心的就是對於在野黨的最大在野黨的黨主席鄭麗文去追思所謂的共諜這個部分我必須要講對於蔣中正這一個人他在"},{"start":79.634,"end":108.72,"text":"不只是國民黨的總裁我相信對於中華民國的軍人來說他有一定的影響性那麼當王滬寧這種涉台的系統要求學習無時精神而中國國台辦今年特別製作了一個大劇來歌功頌的這個人的時候那麼我要問部長是當今天在野黨的黨主席去對於共諜進行一個追思的動作的時候"},{"start":109.76,"end":126.37,"text":"對於國軍的軍心會不會有影響那麼面對這個部分我們先從心態心理來講這算不算是一個心戰跟認知作戰的組合權國軍有沒有因應的方式因為剛剛前面剛好陳冠廷委員特別問到就是有關於擔任這個國軍當中的共諜的問題"},{"start":130.912,"end":152.705,"text":"這個有的時候真的是敵我不分就會因為一時的經濟或者是個人的因素可能就會走錯路所以這樣的一個組合權或是認知作戰部長怎麼看我想國防部的立場就是要積極的來防堵這個中國的滲透的攻勢所以"},{"start":154.757,"end":170.753,"text":"財務問題是一個當然敵我的認同也是一個我們重要的一個宣導的事項那國防部會會來跟官兵來做一個強化的宣導包括這個保防的警覺跟愛國意識然後"},{"start":172.914,"end":196.06,"text":"我想也會透由這個國安聯防的機制跟國安情報團隊的密切合作來防止這個不法的滲透我想這個雙管要齊下一方面要深化官兵的保安警覺跟愛國意識那我們持續也會來結合這些這個相關的情質才急收急報急辦的原則這樣子"},{"start":197.352,"end":206.456,"text":"好因為吳石這個人他所造成的傷害喔這個不只是當時他想要顛覆讓中華民國消失讓國民黨消失更重要的是對於國軍當時造成了極大的傷害這個部分我認為有必要以正視聽那我也很開心聽到部長認為說在新防的部分必須要再做更進一步的加強以及認知上面的導正另外一個當然今天我也想問一個問題就是無人機的部隊在"},{"start":227.026,"end":248.259,"text":"海軍的部分海陸的部分是今年的1月16號就成立了而部長剛剛我們有特別講到就是有關於軍人的加擠的部分我知道陳俊宇委員也曾經在這裡質詢過您喔所以無人機部隊到底算不算戰鬥部隊因為當時他提出來的是希望給飛行加擠嘛所以對部長來說以現在整體國防部的考量來說這樣的一個部隊成立之後"},{"start":254.423,"end":283.285,"text":"那麼他算不算戰鬥部隊如果算戰鬥部隊的話有沒有要編列所謂的戰鬥加擠目前有這樣的規劃嗎部長跟委員報告無人機的本來他就是從戰鬥部隊轉型的是所以他當然應該是屬於戰鬥部隊所以我們在這個部分已經就這一些無人機的入軍的無人機大隊還有海軍陸戰隊的無人機營"},{"start":284.446,"end":297.668,"text":"我們認為它是符合這個戰鬥部隊的定義所以我們也已經在8月份報到行政院然後我們研擬就是他們能夠指引戰鬥部隊加緊然後也"},{"start":299.127,"end":314.687,"text":"能夠追溯到各部隊編裝核定的生肖日來發給好 言下之意就是已經在進行當中而且會往前追溯那麼我們也知道 其實如果根據國軍志願役服勤的加級表 戰鬥部隊其實有"},{"start":316.089,"end":339.866,"text":"第一類型跟第二類型第一類型是加擠一萬二第二類型是七千那麼在這個部分有思考到嗎會是報情哪一個類型因為我想其實這個有關於他還是說他們有不一樣的任務的時候會有不一樣的類型這個部分有思考進去嗎有有因為戰鬥部隊的定義就是直接跟敵軍從事作戰部隊或協同組織部隊提供"},{"start":342.269,"end":354.669,"text":"這個戰鬥資源所以它有屬於我們會認為它是屬於第一類型的或屬於第二類型的那會分別按照它的任務的性質來做這個不同的一個加級的給予"},{"start":355.526,"end":372.782,"text":"好 以下之意就是每一個人的任務不同那麼他既然被編進了戰鬥部隊或以他的類型來看是第一或第二好 因為秉席特別提出來的就是我們在強調的是你在有任務再生的時候給予加緊這是一種公平性那麼既然部長跟整個就是相關單位已經有考量進去的話那麼我認為這會是一個"},{"start":378.067,"end":396.16,"text":"在不論是剛剛我們前面所提到的在心理素質上面那麼在任務加擠在薪資上面在津貼上面給予他一定的這個部分我覺得很給予肯定那部長有沒有一個時間點現在行政院在核定的部分那麼現在走到什麼樣的一個流程了知道嗎"},{"start":398.564,"end":426.356,"text":"我想因為你知道已經年底了那我們當然知道當時因為成立的部分是在今年1月那另外這個9月的時候其實陸軍也成立了無人機大隊那麼當然這都是後續的才成立的先成立的1月已經成立已經編進去了那9月的是後續的但是我知道這個過程中現在還在核定那麼有一個時間比如說現在已經到年底了還是說明年會一起給還是有什麼樣的一個期程行政院的回覆是什麼"},{"start":427.656,"end":443.385,"text":"報告委員這個目前就是還是在人種審查中那我們掌握的是人種已經有請相關部會表達意見那我們也有一直在跟人種保持聯繫那人種意思是說目前各部會的意見還沒有還沒有完全回來給他們那我們還是會持續追蹤掌握"},{"start":443.945,"end":460.49,"text":"好 那麼我希望本席今天在質詢之後我們也能夠競訴因為這個都是當時在提報的時候沒有特別去思考到的嘛那麼既然國防部有想到那麼現在我們也提出來了那我就希望說至少不要拖超過一年至少 有沒有可能"},{"start":463.43,"end":477.478,"text":"我想我們會盡快我們會一直持續的來跟人種來保持那個聯繫好 那麼我們本席也會跟人種針對這個部分我們也希望他們能夠在這邊有個答案好不好OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林楚瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"165374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face924b51239b911ba863fe2012470c7542999b3dda738276801c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:24:21 - 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鋼鐵也好等等因為我提一個例子像我們農業部的林務署他們針對跟教育部有一個合作計畫教育部他針對全國的各國中小的一個課桌椅的一個更新工程他有下了一個可以優先採購國產林木"},{"start":49.541,"end":71.801,"text":"這個東西是一個雖然不是強迫性也不是強制性但是一個鼓勵跟希望能夠讓國內的產業可以有好的循環那這個部分我覺得可以提供給公共工程委員會可以作為思考的方向那接著我今天要質詢的是有關我一直以來在講的公共工程減碳的問題"},{"start":74.543,"end":90.439,"text":"我想主委、政委應該也都會非常的支持為了要降低環境影響還有推動永續我想檢探從公共工程開始政委、主委也一直都很支持"},{"start":90.979,"end":112.233,"text":"所以我在去年的5月29号要求建立碳排系数的一个资料库还有扩大承办人员基层人员的赔利还有尽数提出减碳的指引还有修正这个契约范本我在去年的9月30号也再一次的来要求希望工程会跟环境部合作"},{"start":113.194,"end":132.931,"text":"建立的這個明確的一個減碳的一個指引那我很高興的在今天的這個業務報告裡面有看到這三件事情第一個這個我們在水利水保建築下水道等四份指引已經公布那請問一下公路國道軌道今年可以如期來完成嗎好來請副主任委員"},{"start":139.639,"end":160.788,"text":"跟委員報告那我們本來從委員開始在詢問的時候我們一般設計指引大概只有兩部那現在我們已經努力各部會努力之下已經有四部那剛剛委員關心的這些公路軌道這些在年底前也有可以完成那除此之外再跟委員報告因為有一些機關其實也都在響應這件事情所以他原本不在我們設定那七個"},{"start":161.829,"end":178.309,"text":"七個類別的設計師 他們會再增加所以像那個像電力設施啦或者是煉油廠這些等等其實他們也都陸陸續續在做進行這個努力好那副主委是不是會後可以給我一份完整的告訴我說哪些部會好這四個部會已經有了"},{"start":178.669,"end":193.24,"text":"那哪些部會是年底那又有哪些正在研議當中擬定當中好不好我們希望有一個實成配合國家的政策這也是世界大家希望推動這個淨領碳排的一個目標前進那要前進就必須要有實踐要有實成"},{"start":195.862,"end":213.072,"text":"第二個擴大這個承辦的這個公務人員在第一線上針對這個減碳教育的訓練還有呢賠利強化他們的能力這個部分呢我也很高興看到在今天業務報告裡面有但是我希望執行面是不是會後也給我一個執行面"},{"start":213.712,"end":238.497,"text":"跟各地方政府的一個溝通協調如何落實第三個修正這個契約範本同樣也是一樣要求這個廠商在設計的時候包括未來施工都能夠落實節能減碳那這樣子的一個契約範本各個地方政府也配合我們公共工程委員會的這樣子的一個要求已經都修正了嗎都完成了嗎來誰可以回答"},{"start":243.283,"end":264.132,"text":"報告委員喔 那這個契約範本我們是草案已經完成了那我們預計在年底發布給各機關來使用那透過契約範本來引導設計廠商呢朝著我們減碳的目標來前進 以上報告所以各地方政府在你年底的這個範本公布了之後 給他們之後我認為還是要後面要"},{"start":264.972,"end":281.773,"text":"跟進各地方政府的執行進度到底對於這個契約範本有沒有修正我覺得是中央跟地方政府大家一起努力我跟委員補充說明就是這個契約範本目前大概相關機關他也可以採取說這是參考"},{"start":282.614,"end":307.953,"text":"所以我們要把它改成剛性的企業換本那這一次我們政府採購法修正草案已經預告中將來會改成剛性的那如果採購法獲得大院的支持通過之後我們將來企業換本包括減少這個溫室氣體排放那如何減少或怎麼樣放在企業換本裡面就有拘束力那拘束力到所有的採購機關他必須按照這個企業換本來訂定他的採購企業"},{"start":309.042,"end":326.196,"text":"是所以我也再回過來再請主委的要再去要求我們剛剛我一直要求的這個減碳的那個資料庫的一個建立跟認證我覺得這個資料庫的一個係數的一個建立跟認證如果有一個"},{"start":326.997,"end":355.591,"text":"大家可依循的這樣子的一個大水庫可以來查詢會更容易讓我們的這一個所謂的契約範本修訂了之後如何讓廠商可以參考能夠減少溫室氣體的排放在整個工程不管是設計規劃到未來的工法施工過程等等我覺得這個都是必須要環環相扣也請我們公共工程委員會大家努力好不好接下來我就要問"},{"start":356.832,"end":365.864,"text":"主委喔我上次非洲豬瘟在台中爆發 個案我們都很遺憾也很覺得地方政府出的也很爛喔那問題是呢"},{"start":368.905,"end":395.233,"text":"我想要問主委的一件事有沒有看到這一個新聞這一個新聞雖然是所謂的台中市政府在我們要求中央要求中央是誰要求環境部環境部要求那個廚餘坑的一個防護措施要做到標準的SOP那這個主委會說這跟我沒關係但是我要說的是什麼在有一件事情是跟我們公共工程有關係"},{"start":397.214,"end":414.509,"text":"當時候在中央環境部要求他必須要按照標準流程做防腐的這個附土那台中市的市政府的建設局養工處呢緊急調派他把台中市的各個這個工區的這個包商的要求他們再土進去"},{"start":415.87,"end":421.634,"text":"這個各個廚藝坑去復土結果呢包商再來的土呢不能用因為有酒桃有土崗那完全不能用不是我們認定的這個土房乾淨的土所以不能復土那好我現在就問喔"},{"start":432.403,"end":451.685,"text":"公共工程的相關的土石方跟廢棄物到底哪裡去我曾經就這個問題來問一下我們公共工程委員會的這個承辦或者是我們所得知到的訊息是說這是環境部管的但是環境部說土石方是內政部管的"},{"start":452.746,"end":468.96,"text":"廢棄物是我管的沒錯但是我又衍生出一個問題是在於我從環境部裡面的資料裡面公共工程的廢棄物我們要如何減量為什麼因為全國的營建廢棄物的產生量是不斷的在上升"},{"start":469.821,"end":481.133,"text":"而我們現在的所有的這相關的營建工程的廢機物的處理方式就兩種一個呢也許可以回收再利用要分類一個呢當然就是燒掉那這個當然中間是所謂的這個清運業者來協助處理"},{"start":486.378,"end":513.44,"text":"侵業者的這個管理當然是在環境部但是我要講的是我們公共工程委員會是可以從源頭我們既然要邁向淨零碳排我們要求要減碳那我們的廢棄物要保護我們的地球保護台灣這一塊土地我們公共工程委員會又可以如何從源頭來讓這個相關的工程廢棄物可以減量所以我幫你釐清了 政委你覺得可以怎麼做"},{"start":514.488,"end":533.607,"text":"那內政部有一個營建剩餘土石方的管理計畫這管理計畫在你一定修正的時候公共委員會有參與我們的想法是在限地公共城或者是營建營造業蓋房子限地就要分類了"},{"start":534.628,"end":552.147,"text":"就是可燃的廢棄物跟土石要分開然後這些土石可以到土資廠或者是區域化或者在利用場那時候廢棄物就比較少了這個廢棄物當地的清潔隊就可以到葫蘆路去燃燒掉這樣量就很減少"},{"start":552.828,"end":572.757,"text":"另外第二概念就是任何東西都可以再利用這些土方也不是什麼化學的廢棄物它有時候可以用來它去做一些高壓磚或者是有些地化地區可以填這個或者是甚至填海造地台灣那麼小我們仿造其他國家填海造地比方說台北港"},{"start":573.937,"end":594.388,"text":"以後其他協和電廠那都是要填海這是可以填的那我說比較乾淨的剩餘土石應該正視它的再利用價值而不是認為它就是廢棄物你一定要去掩埋那掩埋也是同一件事情所以我們認為內政部這個管理"},{"start":595.208,"end":619.479,"text":"有一些GPS的管理啦但是最重要還是縣市政府他將來在發使用執照或建造的時候這個廠商就要提一個怎麼去化怎麼管理的計畫那個計畫核准之後才能動工然後你拿使用執照的時候來看你有沒有按照計畫執行如果按照計畫執行那這個死照核化沒有問題這個都是整個在內政部委的一個管理計畫當中"},{"start":620.486,"end":643.874,"text":"好那雖然是內政部的管理計畫當中但是其中公共工程的部分我是希望我們公共工程委員會也要針對這樣子的一個公共工程的廢棄物的去化還有它的總量管制還有它的循環再生再利用我覺得這個也是我們的一個未來的一個很重要的一個重點拜託主委好不好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝何俊傑"}]}},{"id":"165400","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165400","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face0ddc48b89247e1464fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c0656ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:29:15 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我們請吳次長還有林副署長請次長跟署長委員好市長好市長 最近的最重大的新聞之一應該就是這個太子集團詐騙案那上次部長承諾就是一定要嚴辦 速辦那請問一下現在進度到哪裡好 是 那個簡單啦好 還是我請警政署說明一下目前的一個偵辦情形簡單 簡單 簡單就好"},{"start":32.208,"end":48.407,"text":"是謝謝委員那目前這個案子我們是那個刑事警察局跟法務部調查局都在台北地檢的指揮那已經有第一波的查緝行動那這個案子目前還在偵辦當中我想後續認為還會再繼續擴大嗎會會那涉外的人士比較多還是國內的人士比較多"},{"start":52.572,"end":54.995,"text":"報告委員這案子現在還在偵查中所以不偏公開是好那其實就我們目前從新聞上面可以掌握到謝謝從我們新聞上面可以掌握到的資訊其實是涉外的人士也有不少啦這跟其實現在國際局勢國際的趨勢詐騙犯詐騙案"},{"start":71.713,"end":74.755,"text":"都有相當多的跨國這樣的概念其實是一樣的我們可以看到數據來自己顯示其實在台灣你看看從2022年之後我們在台的外籍人士涉及詐欺案件的案件數和人數都是快速的上升那請問一下次長或副署長你對這樣的現象有什麼解釋嗎"},{"start":95.219,"end":111.396,"text":"有沒有要加強氣場各位報告因為現在可以講國界的這個概念在這個科技發展的狀況模糊化了已經都模糊化了那科技的通訊科技網路之間的發展所以跨境的犯罪會越來越高"},{"start":111.616,"end":117.959,"text":"所以幾乎這就是我們的新型態了所以我今天最主要的就是要來請問你說那在這樣的狀況下我們針對這樣國界模糊跨國犯罪已經是常態那甚至是外籍人士在我國境內變成有這樣的犯罪行為的時候你要怎麼處置處理"},{"start":132.652,"end":144.538,"text":"各位報告我們警政署目前是透過我們刑事局的駐外聯絡官那跟我們犯罪頻率比較高的鄰近國家呢"},{"start":145.131,"end":171.532,"text":"大家都會組成共同打擊犯罪的這樣的一個共識但是這是非正式的組織嘛對不對非正式的管道嘛目前當然是非正式的組織但是我們目前就是說透過這樣的一個機制協同其他國家共同來打擊這個相關的犯罪好我今天在這裡喔藉由這個質詢的過程當中既是提出問題其實也是幫警政署幫內政部警政署的同仁"},{"start":172.132,"end":176.993,"text":"這個辛苦的付出講幾句話啦就是現在的犯罪類型確實是和以往不同那甚至是更更複雜這樣的狀況所以需要有更多的支援那我們來看看嘛首先我剛剛問你的是說你對現在這樣有涉外人士這麼多的犯罪情勢人事物有沒有分析就是你剛剛說比較多發生的地區哪一些地區的人或者是哪一些地區會有比較多的關聯性你們都有掌握了嘛你剛剛的回答是都有掌握嘛對不對"},{"start":201.738,"end":226.11,"text":"我們對於發生的各類犯罪類型一定會進行相關資料的一個蒐集蒐集一定有嘛而且目前也透過友好管道去回推再加強資料嘛對不對那我們甚至可以看到現在的這個外籍人士外籍犯罪人士可能有幫派化或者開始深耕的狀況甚至是外籍人士來台灣他從事的犯罪詐欺行為不是只有"},{"start":226.73,"end":237.918,"text":"坦白講不是只有騙台灣人啦甚至是移工我們外籍人但是好好的來這裡台灣要工作的結果也反而遭到了詐騙這樣的狀態所以我想提幾個意見啦第一個的話是跨部會的合作比如說我們在看到勞動部在對這個移工進來的時候他有移工一戰式的服務關懷這種部分嘛那他其實有對了很多他其實有就"},{"start":256.741,"end":275.571,"text":"防治毒品人口孕犯性侵害酒駕等等都有但是同樣的我們對於詐騙的這個部分其實我們去看所有的資料對詐騙你怎麼樣避免自己被詐騙我說的是移工被詐騙甚至是被同鄉詐騙這件事情目前是沒有提到的所以我第一我建議"},{"start":276.551,"end":293.754,"text":"內政部這邊可以跟勞動部這邊是再一次的合作檢視是不是有相關的資料可以去做通報這是第一個部分嘛第二個部分的話就是其實我們也有學生的部分啊學生來台灣念書念一念以後卻在就有一些狀況之下他不小心"},{"start":294.555,"end":297.397,"text":"碰觸到了這樣的犯罪的組織等等也變成了相關的犯罪人士所以教育部也會有應該有相對應的狀況所以我第一個訴求應該是說我認為啦就跨國詐騙的這個部分內政部應該要主動就如同洗錢一樣跟其他部會合作聯繫市長這個部分應該沒有問題吧應該這樣做吧"},{"start":324.816,"end":329.981,"text":"對尤其是學生甚至是入出境管理這本來是你們內政部的嘛這些都應該要加強嘛移民署這邊也有來處理這個部分這是第一個第二個部分的話就是我剛剛說要替大家說點話這樣的狀況其實我們這麼認真台灣的打擊犯罪的績效不差但是很可惜的因為我們沒有辦法加入國際刑警組織"},{"start":344.736,"end":358.285,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法在第一時間及時的跟全世界的其他相關國家有這種一件事的或者是及時的一案式的通報所有共享所有的情資沒有錯吧副署長這個部分你們你們認為有沒有加入國際刑警組織有沒有好處或壞處或遺憾或者是你們的想法是如何因為我知道你們署長剛剛去去這個國際警察首長協會的年會也是談到了這件事情"},{"start":374.797,"end":375.52,"text":"當然,跟委員報告"},{"start":377.13,"end":406.625,"text":"台灣的警察加入這個國際刑警組織這是警政署多年來一直推動的一個目標雖然過程有一些不順遂但是到目前為止仍然是警政署的重點工作24號這個月就是馬上要到了嘛11月24號到27號要在摩洛哥又要再開年會了嘛那我們有沒有希望能夠能夠怎麼爭取加入你們的策略是什麼大概目前我們都透過由我的國家"},{"start":407.586,"end":421.284,"text":"協助發聲來幫我們爭取加入國際刑警組織這個部分其實到目前為止跟委員報告警政署非常重視這個工作一定會再持續努力推動"},{"start":422.199,"end":425.402,"text":"好啦 這個副署長還有次長這邊我是覺得非常遺憾因為這個是礙於國際的局勢所以我們一直想要加入國際刑警組織卻還沒有成功這樣的狀況我們可以看到嘛其實你看看國際刑警組織有19個資料庫包括各類型的犯罪台灣都無法使用也沒有辦法及時接獲最高級別的棄捕通報這個紅色通報"},{"start":447.782,"end":452.704,"text":"所以等到我們知悉有通緝犯在台灣隱匿的時候常常已經時效過啦所以之前還發生過什麼西班牙的通緝犯、詐欺通緝犯結果在台灣已經待了五年了還開業了這樣的狀況這都非常非常可惜所以其實我們應該就如同我們要爭取加入WHA、WHO一樣是舉國之力來支援警政署支援我們台灣的警察可以加入國際刑警組織"},{"start":474.495,"end":479.121,"text":"所以接下來就是預算的會期大家要進行預算的這個狀況了我記得去年我們大家在這個旅費等等的這種部分會議的這些部分預算其實各位委員之間有不少的討論我是認為其實內政部也好警政署也好可以就像現在這樣子的例子"},{"start":493.979,"end":498.943,"text":"我們不但應該要加入國際組織而且應該要大大的加入甚至不只在年會的時候才去做遊說工作平時也就可以去了這些也都是需要國家的經費來支援所以我認為你們可以在爭取預算的時間把這些過去的努力及辛苦和需求大大的藉由預算會期告訴國人爭取更多的支持"},{"start":519.901,"end":537.494,"text":"也為我們辛苦的警察同仁可以多一點配備啦這是我的期許所以市長你要不要回應一下我想謝謝委員的指教我想對於警政署這個參加國際組織還有包括照顧基層同仁在預算上我想今年的預算我們這部分也都請警政署"},{"start":538.035,"end":555.262,"text":"把包括防炸還有像這些的一些的預算經費我們都有請他再努力的再做增加到時候也請委員們來支持我剛剛講的是不只是打炸的費用是甚至是加入國際組織的這種部分其實是應該要做的事情我們也會支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face1171203a5d2a0a544fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c061bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:21:10 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因為必須等到案件起訴這是一個要件我們警察機關可能破很多案件移送到地檢署以後"},{"start":292.945,"end":319.137,"text":"檢察官會做一個起訴的動作那到起訴的時候我們就來請教次長次長你聽到這樣的回應您覺得能接受嗎我們現在都已經把相關的這個獎勵辦法都已經這個行政院都已經核准在我們委員大家共同的努力之下結果一個多月來結果獎金發放的金額居然是0請問這個次長這個就要由您來協助了一個多月來難道都沒有任何的"},{"start":320.983,"end":335.538,"text":"難道都沒有任何的起訴是不是我簡單跟委員報告我想10月1號是公布實施啦那警政署也在10月底的署務會議也要求所有的各地方政府的警察局要有知道這個宣導的事項那我想剛剛副署長談的就是說"},{"start":337.92,"end":353.951,"text":"可能在程序上也是要成案之後起訴才可以開費不過這個回去我會請警政署來進出因為過去就警政署而言我們都有編那些專案嘛對不對比如說就是檢舉完了以後他可以馬上拿到錢的這些專案所以我們現在已經給你一個這麼大的一個這個獎勵檢舉的辦法"},{"start":355.902,"end":379,"text":"結果一個多月來居然沒有人可以拿到任何一塊錢的檢舉獎金那變成空有制度沒辦法去實施那我也希望說今天次長在這邊副署長在這邊我們大家一起加油讓辛苦的員警因為就我了解我常常在這邊跟大家報告基層的警員有時候看到這個很多車手他們都會身長都會藏著一些這個危險物品其實在執勤上是非常的困難"},{"start":379.728,"end":401.173,"text":"所以本席才一直拜託邀拜託也是請求在基層員警或是內部者在吹哨的時候相關的獎金應該要編列要發放而且那我再請教一下現在你們知道說這今年內政部編列的檢舉獎金是多少錢嗎預算114年編列檢舉獎金預算是多少錢嗎跟委員報告我們今年編列的預算是新台幣1000萬元"},{"start":403.159,"end":427.183,"text":"1000萬元而已嗎我看了內部的資料上次我質詢過我們內政部有編了一個1.3億的檢舉獎金那請問一下現在發放的金額是多少剛才1000萬剛剛委員講的那個預算數那是各類型案那針對這個詐欺部分的詐欺的部分我們編列是1000萬聽起來真的是非常的少"},{"start":428.288,"end":440.066,"text":"那現在發了多少錢就算以詐欺的部分編列一千萬發了多少錢跟我們報告好手上並沒有這個資料會後可以提供給委員那目前都有陸續發出好所以今天拜託"},{"start":441.946,"end":468.037,"text":"那個副署長跟次長其實就是看到這樣的問題基層員警大家在執勤的過程中非常辛苦可是如果你沒有獎金的話誰哪個員警願意去跟監去追蹤然後後續把這些詐騙犯或是詐騙集團給追出來這非常的辛苦那所以說如果要要給他們在執行上有一些幫助的話所以我就認為他們那麼辛苦也要發相對應的獎金好謝謝謝謝委員我們會照顧基層同仁好謝謝好謝謝張志龍委員"}]}},{"id":"165398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face52027299c411e42f4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c061bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:14:14 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is Taiwan, this is freedomand we will never back down我們永遠不會退縮跟妥協那我想"},{"start":83.638,"end":108.646,"text":"這個對於我們整個台灣的人權以及我們民主的殿堂對於所有的台灣人來說我們都是沈伯陽我們都會挺他那所以我想在這邊對內政部來說這個非常重要的這一段話那也希望全國的國人一起來挺沈伯陽"},{"start":110.563,"end":139.637,"text":"今天主席所排的議程是這個普發現金可能會有的這些詐騙的這些事項所以我特別也請這個警政署這邊來 署長 副市長李副市長我請問你普發現金有幾個管道官員報告目前是有四個管道是 哪一個管道最容易會有詐騙的行為依照我們目前來看最容易發生詐騙行為的是網路"},{"start":141.356,"end":156.554,"text":"那對長者來講我要講的就是數位落差那對年輕人來講我要講的是就是副市長你講的網路網路最重要的我覺得要呼籲所有的我們所有網路使用者最重要最後要有一個"},{"start":159.022,"end":183.636,"text":"一定要看到這一個啦這一個才是政府的這個網頁所以你這樣點進去連結才不會會點到別的地方去但是另外對長者齁其實我會建議啦哪一個是對長者最有利的方式來副市長對長者的部分啦數位落差他最不會使用手機最不會使用網路那他要怎麼處理"},{"start":184.688,"end":212.826,"text":"我們認為透過有幾個管道電視電視的一個宣導是一個管道沒有沒有我說長者要怎麼去領長者領因為長者每天看電視說什麼網路要怎樣要怎樣有什麼管道我會建議長者如果懂ATM的話或者到去登記領的話會比較好可不可以直接到郵局領就好我建議是如此這樣是最好的方式"},{"start":213.61,"end":231.301,"text":"雖然會增加郵局的負擔但是最好的方式其實對長者來講身份證證件帶著去郵局領現金這是最好的方式來謝謝副長你稍等我要請這個金管會對不起速發布"},{"start":242.065,"end":266.174,"text":"我在選區裡面然後收到很多的這個澄清高利貸的簡訊的借款非常可怕他幾乎後來經過這個刑事局跟警政署這邊的調查你幫我看一下一整排16個借款資訊不斷的發到他的這個簡訊的系統裡面"},{"start":271.533,"end":298.349,"text":"那他是一個職業軍人他完全 他他就打這些電話全部都是匿名然後這些人可能就跟他約在這個他的基地的對面的7-11全家等等這些直接交付現金然後簽了本票他有可能就是實拿13萬然後簽了30萬的本票這樣一列下來後來警政署查證 刑事局查證之後是同一個集團"},{"start":299.571,"end":328.336,"text":"但是速發部這一邊卻沒有辦法對於這個簡訊的出資人跟資金來源做審核那審核到的是什麼審核到的是反而是有一些商店或者是有一些店家或者甚至有一些簡訊的這些發放的這個要申請的這些流程速發部你回去應該要好好檢討一下這些事情你看左邊這些"},{"start":329.432,"end":353.699,"text":"你的評分通過60萬然後月付多少的這些喔我們並沒有對於他的簡訊的廣告業者規範他的出資人我覺得這一個齁就是同樣一個詐騙集團他可以同時買了可能10個簡訊的帳戶然後同時一直發放用不同的這個帳戶的名稱一直發放給某一些特定人"},{"start":354.689,"end":370.022,"text":"讓這些特定人受到這些高利貸的侵蝕蘇發部跟警政署應該要共同來研議怎麼樣防堵這些簡訊的系統再去危害國人好 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":374.895,"end":388.202,"text":"針對這個部分的話因為我們今天是另外一個素產署在負責那我們回去會把委員的意見跟我們素產署這邊來做一個這個傳達好那請你一個月內跟警政署共同給我一個方案謝謝好謝謝李博弈"}]}},{"id":"165388","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165388","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facef3a36a6428b4cb74fa47f864c5dfb45a0f406a00a8f97c06e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:05:26 - 11:16:40","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行副總裁、國家發展委員會葉主任委員俊顯、經濟部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部次長就「經濟成長讓全民共享：政府如何縮短所得差距暨改善相對貧窮化之對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T11:05:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T11:16:40+08:00","duration":674,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-4-20-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.63784375,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.73409375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.41596875,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.59284375,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.06284375,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.947843750000004,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.689093750000005,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.27034375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.82221875,"end":67.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.39596875000001,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.60596875,"end":76.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.20846875000001,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.34721875000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.89471875000001,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.59471875000001,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.92159375,"end":106.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.49409375,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.77596875,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":124.06221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.58096875000001,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.47346875,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.96596875,"end":146.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.14721875,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.37409375000001,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.47034375,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.75284375,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.37221875,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.53784375,"end":189.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.09409375,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.36659375000002,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.31034375000002,"end":212.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.68159375000002,"end":211.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.06534375,"end":215.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.25471875000002,"end":215.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.63846875000002,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.52846875,"end":218.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.69659375,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.01284375,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.46846875000003,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.38784375,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.26409375000003,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.92471875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.10534375,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.76346875000002,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.48471875,"end":271.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.13846875,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.68971875,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.98846875000004,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.41846875000005,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.51909375,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.06159375000004,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.39034375,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.49534375,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.93784375,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.00471875,"end":311.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.86409375,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.28471875,"end":335.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.89409375,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":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我們請主席長"},{"start":20.427,"end":42.998,"text":"委員好是 署長我們在主席總處的辛勤平台的網站可以查詢到從101年到112年我們每年度的全年總薪資的分布以全年薪資60萬為例101年有超過7成的壽星者但是到了112年同樣全年薪資60萬只剩下6成"},{"start":46.579,"end":65.208,"text":"這個現象表示說我們整體的薪資結構被往上拉但中位數的族群被擠下去整體的薪資結構不再是平均往上而是差距越來越明顯為什麼同樣全年薪資60萬"},{"start":67.59,"end":76.36,"text":"到了112年會從101年的七成降到六成主席長為什麼有這個現象可以請你說明一下嗎"},{"start":77.549,"end":106.75,"text":"它有成長只是成長的成長的幅度沒有那麼高是這樣子對這個部分因為我們現在好像D1 D2和這個部分我們就是有所謂的低薪的調薪基本工資的一個保障所以它的成長幅度就會比較高還要包括我們政府也保障低薪的部分有一個做一些的政策所以這個部分3萬1以下的部分我們都調到3萬1這是最基本"},{"start":107.31,"end":124.945,"text":"基本的低薪的调整中位数的部分一般是比较平稳比较平稳是这样子高薪的部分比较特殊因为它是有一些的比较AI的或者是通业的市长 我知道我想妳就回答到这里其实我们看到一个现象就是说"},{"start":126.406,"end":146.096,"text":"這個高薪者其實他的平均數越來越高就是因為中位數就是我們剛才講的平均60萬薪資的這個族群就他竟然掉了一層所以這個現象當然都有上升但是他掉了一層我想你要觀察到這個現象我請你要注意要去注意"},{"start":147.356,"end":164.649,"text":"我們再看這個主計總數薪資分布的資料我們整理出來你剛才講的D1到D9雖然我們這個所有的實質的成長率都有成長剛才主席講的但是我們看到實質的成長卻落差很大喔落差很大"},{"start":165.45,"end":173.336,"text":"我們看D1是從23.2萬我的表是2023現在實質到2024是提升到31.6萬那D9從101萬提高到到2024是提高到127.9萬但是我們要去看這個通膨率這11年間通膨率成長了13.7%"},{"start":190.268,"end":212.455,"text":"所以我們以這個購買率來講的話等於說101年的100元到了112年底大概已經變成113元了因為通膨增長了13%所以主席講扣掉通膨之後我們整體薪資仍然是成長嗎你認為扣除空還是成長嗎是的成長1.78我記得是這樣子"},{"start":217.037,"end":235.699,"text":"成长1.7%所以11年成长1.7%但是我们从这个这是年啊年增1.7%我想今天召委排这个专题政府要如何缩短我们整个所得的差距即改善相对贫穷化的对策"},{"start":236.42,"end":253.365,"text":"其實剛才你講雖然有成長但是我們看到就是說實質上我們中位數的這個族群的薪資停滯不前雖然有成長但是它幅度很低中位數也有成長但是跟我們的通膨區再加以比較的話通膨也是成長"},{"start":255.546,"end":277.467,"text":"就成長不多嘛但是看到就是說越有錢的人他越有錢啦他所得越高嘛那低薪族剛才你們用很多政策去加以這個去加以彌補嘛但是這個中位數的我們就一直覺得奇怪為什麼他的所得就有增加但是他的幅度很低啊你可以看你可以看出來嘛我們看那個表啊"},{"start":278.584,"end":293.132,"text":"我們看到這個最低薪資的D1 D3的30%的族群換算實質薪資後 它是最低三個十分位的成長率D1是成長19.8% D2成長17.2% D3成長11.4%反而中位數收入的族群就D4到D7"},{"start":303.677,"end":319.049,"text":"實質成長都很低 不到7%其中最低的第六只有3.8%所以我們低薪階層或者領最低基本工資的階層向來我們就剛才講最需要被照顧"},{"start":320.41,"end":347.668,"text":"但是最低薪資他不但有提高到100從101年1月1日的18780元到2023年的1月1號是26400元到這個明年1月1號我們基本工資已經調高到29500元所以主委長我要請問你從這個現象是否反映出基本工資雖然經過幾次的調高"},{"start":350.77,"end":372.2,"text":"後來確實也有讓我們的低薪族受惠但是整個中位數的階層被卡在原地薪水幾乎不太動沒什麼動所以這樣的結構是否會讓我們的社會結構這種結構讓我們薪資的結構陷入一個中位數它是一個天坑"},{"start":373.32,"end":399.266,"text":"他的所得永遠就是停留在那個階段沒有辦法再往上拉即便你把這個基本工資往上調那你那個中位數的他的薪資就不動啊報告委員我們政府這方面來做的部分包括我們公務人員的部分我們是帶頭加薪連續好幾年都做調薪那第二個我們也鼓勵企業來做調薪所以然後也像金管會他也鼓勵就是說"},{"start":400.586,"end":410.05,"text":"公司如果獲利要分配分配給那個這樣的話他會給他一些稅務方面的一個優待所以這個部分那包括產業他要賺錢所以我們都會輔導產業讓他賺錢然後讓他能夠把"},{"start":416.153,"end":434.207,"text":"員工的薪資調整所以這個部分主要是要鼓勵企業對員工加薪所以這個部分我們也在經濟部做很大的一個努力所以這個部分包括公務人員帶頭加薪然後再來就是要鼓勵企業加薪然後也鼓勵所謂企業要分紅"},{"start":435.227,"end":455.18,"text":"市長我想你要用這個現象你看到了嘛我剛才都點出來了嘛當然你認為說你剛才是提到如何這個企業要怎麼做政府要怎麼做讓這個我一直關心的這個中介中位數的這些族群啊讓他的成長性讓我們看到不是這個成長率那麼低啊"},{"start":455.72,"end":461.004,"text":"剛剛我們在講的就是針對我們會覺得說平復的差距就會越拉越高雖然你一直照顧低薪的族群但是中位數的你也要去照顧他有…所以這個部分政府也有帶頭來做 謝謝否則主席長我看到一個社會現象就是說"},{"start":475.353,"end":499.176,"text":"高薪階層遙遙領先中低薪資階層卻望塵莫及這個中位數的族群就是一直被這個壓縮減少所以這個現象就反映出我們雖然看起來是平等但實質是不均所以所得差距在數字上你看是平穩但實際上越拉越開"},{"start":500.157,"end":525.976,"text":"就我剛才一開始點出來的平均60萬的族群竟然過了11年之後減少了一成所以這個現象我希望政府要看到這個現象對中位數的族群要如何的讓他請這些企業界要去幫他們加薪讓貧富所的差距不要再繼續擴大我覺得我們要去努力"},{"start":526.576,"end":533.56,"text":"是 謝謝你請為時間暫停一下我們現在請央行我們請央行 嚴副總裁副總裁我想房價持續還是高漲房貸的壓力全面擴散所以我們目前的房市政策是不是仍然微微達效果"},{"start":555.174,"end":578.375,"text":"讓我們年輕人的薪水全部就被這些貸款或者通膨吃光了尤其我們家戶負債比高達可支配所得的1.55倍在這樣艱困的環境下我們如何讓年輕人共享經濟的成長所以你打房的成效到底如何"},{"start":581.327,"end":597.36,"text":"報告委員如果比較在去年我們看到去年下半年或去年七八月九月十月的時候整個房地產大家對於房地產的那種購買的熱潮或者是炒作熱潮現在是相對的平淡平穩很多"},{"start":598.641,"end":625.024,"text":"其實我們也一直在注意說到底我們的政策它實際執行的效果上次剛才我也在回答委員的時候我們每一季我們都會去檢視我們的過去的政策的效果情形我們會做適當的調整所以打房的政策還是會滾動式的做一個檢討是 我們一直都是這樣子做未來還會不會提出其他的管制措施有沒有可能"},{"start":626.345,"end":653.608,"text":"我剛才回答的意思是說這個房地產政策基本上還是由我們的貨幣政策理事會這邊在討論的所以我沒辦法在這邊抱歉其實總理我還是希望你們對房市的熱度你要持續去觀察它因為年輕人現在真的買不起這個房子房貸的壓力太大了我們剛才一直講薪資又沒有這個它的漲幅跟不上房價的漲幅"},{"start":654.989,"end":665.022,"text":"所以造成整個我們年輕人可以說吃不消了所以希望央行在這個方面持續密切的做觀察是 謝謝委員指示以上 謝謝好 謝謝林思敏在位我們現在休息十分鐘"}]}},{"id":"165387","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165387","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facedb82269485661aa35cb08f7d303ca8f40f406a00a8f97c0632eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:03:49 - 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有請顧部長是 林委員"},{"start":11.294,"end":19.042,"text":"部長早首先本席就直接切入今天的主題國軍正面臨的人力不足的實際上面的問題是有關各單位的實際的邊線比的問題部長我們就直接看國軍部隊戰力的核心也就是戰鬥部隊與戰鬥支援部隊簡報裡面的內容是根據你們國防部提供給本席"},{"start":33.536,"end":57.108,"text":"好的資料我們整理了大約是從106年到114年的9月底國軍各單位的邊線比的趨勢我們先看戰鬥部隊這個部分好左邊是所有的戰鬥部隊的邊線比的走勢我們很明顯的看到從108年109年之後整體都是整個下滑的趨勢真正負責作戰的單位包括防空飛彈艦隊裝甲"},{"start":60.309,"end":68.772,"text":"機械化的步兵及海軍陸戰隊四個單位的邊線比不只沒有達到80%的標準甚至是低於75的嚴重不足尤其是陸軍的裝甲機部跟海軍陸戰隊不只邊線比嚴重不足甚至到了114年也似乎也都沒有改善的趨勢偏偏這幾個單位就是地面作戰的核心中的核心請問部長你們有發現國軍核心的整個作戰人力不足的嚴重問題嗎"},{"start":90.04,"end":103.635,"text":"因為戰鬥部隊要真正的發揮戰力的話戰鬥支援部隊是不可或缺的但是我們現在看一下戰鬥支援部隊的邊線比最慘的是陸軍通訊還有海軍的陸戰通訊還有海軍的陸戰"},{"start":108.3,"end":115.868,"text":"工兵還有海軍戰鬥支援這四個那不只邊線比都低於75%也沒有改善的趨勢那請問部長針對這些戰鬥部隊還有支援的部隊邊線比那麼低的情況除了用義務義趣充實這整個人力之外國防部有沒有一些具體的改善措施呢請部長說明"},{"start":130.701,"end":147.576,"text":"我想今天的報告主要就是召委希望我們來提出這個邊線筆提升的具體方案跟因應做法那我想我們在這邊也提到了就是說我們持續不斷的這個努力"},{"start":148.297,"end":170.81,"text":"那現在希望能夠讓這個招募也好留營也好不適服的減少也好都在逐步的這個提升當中所以我們希望我們當然還有很多努力的空間那當然我們會持續來努力讓這個變性比還是盡量的往上走這樣子"},{"start":172.641,"end":193.961,"text":"還有一個就是根據我看本院預算中心的報告指出我覺得這是一個問題想要詢問部長一下自願役人力到今年六月底是75.58%但是今年國防部的報告在第二頁上面有寫到全軍目前的邊線比是79.2%"},{"start":196.443,"end":199.325,"text":"其中自願役佔了76.9 義務役佔了2.3請問一下部長 國軍目前的邊線筆究竟到底是多少為什麼光一個邊線筆的統計國防部的數據和本院的預算中心報告是不一樣的是不是你們統計的基礎是不一樣的因為據我這樣看整個了解全軍的邊線筆包含了自願役還有義務役"},{"start":222.458,"end":228.921,"text":"但因為義務役是強制的徵集然後理論上邊線筆問題是比較不大的所以要檢視部隊人力的問題我看應該是要以招募還有留營的整體成效的話實際上是要聚焦在志願役的邊線筆的趨勢那請問部長光看這志願役的邊線筆的話到底是目前是多少呢如果是強制徵集的義務役人數也記錄的話這樣是不是有一點像在美化整個邊線筆的嫌疑呢"},{"start":253.442,"end":277.027,"text":"剛剛其實王召偉也提到了那個義務役的這個部分本來就是我們三月統計六月統計或者現在統計也好他都是差不多呈現一個固定數字那我們也在報告裡面有區分出志願役的部分是佔76.9那這個部分跟這個這個預算中心所提出的數字的差異我想請任志時做一個說明"},{"start":277.934,"end":295.186,"text":"委員好跟委員報告就是說我們79.2是現在目前最精確的數字是我們線上直接拉出來的數字這個絕對不會有問題那整個在做招募的過程裡面其實我們每年度啊我們社群招募8T次"},{"start":296.027,"end":317.895,"text":"然後到第五梯第六梯大概就年底生效但是六月的時候那時候就前面三個梯次所以說人還沒有完全進到部隊裡面來所以說那個時間點每個月他其實會不太一樣因為招募的或者是退伍的這個每個月都不會一樣但是79.2是現在目前最正確的數字79.2的話是自願役加上義務役嗎"},{"start":322.919,"end":338.534,"text":"所以志願役的部分76.9嘛那這個我們也有顯示啊那如果是說像之後可能義務役的話當兵是一年了嘛如果這樣的話那邊線筆的話這樣的話應該是還是可以當作一個參考數值嗎您說義務役的部分嗎對義務役的話因為現在是四個月嘛之後的話義務役的話可能就是當一年嘛"},{"start":348.957,"end":353.114,"text":"就一年期的EWE會算進來因為一年期EWE才算入編制數裡面"},{"start":355.307,"end":373.374,"text":"所以我想其實有兩個問題想要提醒一下部長就是第一個問題就是因為今天在講人力的部分因為國防部這幾年真的是大量的採購很多新式的裝備所以這是需要比較專業的志願的士官兵來操作的所以如果讓不夠專業的義務役來操作的話我是怕會拉低了整個主戰部隊的平均的戰力"},{"start":379.136,"end":398.605,"text":"還有第二個問題就是說像主戰部隊的志願役如果真的不夠如果讓義務役來加入的話那國防部就應該要提供足夠的誘因畢竟主戰部隊還是相對對守戰部隊的話是辛苦比較多啦所以一般義務役通常是都不太願意主動的加入"},{"start":399.005,"end":428.774,"text":"所以希望國防部要趕快在一年期的義務役人數達到高峰之前趕快研擬一個獎勵的辦法才能吸引義務役加入部長那你覺得呢我們因為義務役是才這個就94年次以後他一年期嗎那我們現在當然著重的一個這個成果的就是在志願役的招募上面那志願役的留營部分也還有志願役的不適合減少的部分"},{"start":428.874,"end":450.152,"text":"我知道這是當然也是要努力的目標嘛就是要招募和留營嘛但是相對的我們當然是要擴大嘛擴大國軍人力的有很多方法嘛像也可以讓這些義務役的然後來當一年的時候他或許他認為當兵也不錯啊或許他也願意再留下來啊所以這樣的話是不是就針對他的獎勵方法可以給他多的獎勵讓他能夠繼續留在這個軍中呢有沒有想過這樣呢"},{"start":456.638,"end":470.975,"text":"有有有所以現在對於一年期的義務役在服役當中我們如果透過他的志願然後轉服成志願役的話我們都是非常歡迎的那應該有一定的成效了這個部分"},{"start":473.12,"end":496.814,"text":"委員好跟委員報告就是說義務役的他從入伍開始我們就開始做招募他分發到部隊去之後一樣同樣的我們都會做招募那去年到現在今年我們就講今年就是一年期義務役進來大概有10%轉成志願役那後續他到部隊服務之後我們還會持續讓他了解部隊的特性也希望能夠他能夠加入國軍"},{"start":498.067,"end":527.644,"text":"對啊 就是說怎麼樣讓他可以想要留下來那是不是給他更多的獎勵方法呢我想我們應該還是說會進行一個招募那還是在他自願的情況之下然後在服役的當中來了解這個部隊的型態他覺得他能夠適應然後他願意轉服自願役那我們就非常歡迎好 那謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝林軍委員部長 各位請回號"}]}},{"id":"165386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610faceb7a8e7c6556f9f9ce72a0011d4bca9f90f406a00a8f97c06a58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:59:50 - 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謝謝好 請邀院長"},{"start":24.429,"end":51.71,"text":"张委员早好 院长早安我想最近先跟院长来讨论一个我们最近发生的一个弊案就是说404检查出来中研院物理研究所超电导实验室前张姓助理研究员利用自己在外开设的科技公司和其他的厂商合谋从2018年到2020年利用科研采购与虚伪报价的方案票向中研院请款"},{"start":52.23,"end":80.359,"text":"那中研院呢也因為上述的這個不實採購案總共已經撥付了兩千兩百萬那其實呢在2017年浩鼎案發生之後呢當時監察院就有要求中研院要加強這個內控可是呢這一起物理所的弊案就發生在2018年所以呢這個強化的內控怎麼會讓兩名非編制的人員在長達數年之間利用那麼粗糙的一個手法榨領公款超過這個這麼多錢呢"},{"start":82.08,"end":99.19,"text":"所以我想請院長說明一下我們從2017年到現在在採購機盒和科研經費延銷上到底具體增加了哪些內控的SOP如果這些SOP存在的話那為什麼它會失靈呢"},{"start":101.569,"end":128.021,"text":"待会我们请业务单位证封来详细回答但是我们虽然做得非常非常多但是我想委员也听过道高一尺 魔高一丈特别是这一次涉案人员不只是本院一些前助理还有最主要12名被起诉的其中有10名是院外人士那这详细的我们请证封说明一下好了"},{"start":130.58,"end":153.3,"text":"我是郑峰市主任那针对这个案件其实我们就这个个案的部分其实我们在109年110年以及在113年的时候我们其实就注意到那包括我们的内控小组还有郑峰市其实我们有进行不同的查核包括内控的查核专案集合还有到县地去查过他们这些物品的管理"},{"start":153.9,"end":174.022,"text":"其实我们都有发现到不同程度上面的问题我们都有提供给物理所这边请他们来改进就像我们刚刚院长所讲到的因为它有结合到外部的厂商我们内部的可以说我们的武器是有限的所以我们其实就针对这个个案的部分我们其实都有"},{"start":174.902,"end":201.406,"text":"提前有一些掌握那在减掉进来的时候我们就积极的配合所以我们把这些资料其实都有提供给减掉所以我想问一下在这一次因为既然你们都有发现可是它还是持续的发生了就是109年110年113年总共发三次陆续都有发现可是看起来这个状况好像我不晓得中间到底有做了什么具体的强化的措施那因为我想毕竟中研院掌管了相当多的一些研究经费我觉得这个还是要"},{"start":202.026,"end":210.706,"text":"有一些实质的做法我不晓得说可不可以简单说明一下到底我们目前有没有什么实质的做法呢还是谁可以来说明一下"},{"start":212.617,"end":236.804,"text":"总务处出报告公务员报告有关于采购的程序部分这包括全院跟物理所的部分我们都有先了解那这个案子的发生呢其实它的问题在采购程序上面并没有问题核销的部分也没有问题所以它主要是实际是耗材管理的这部分那我们这个部分呢除了采购的部分财产跟物品也有每年固定去抽检"},{"start":237.444,"end":265.02,"text":"所以这部分有要求全院的各个单位都要做好物品的管理那这个案子呢因为它是处于物品管理的部分也请这个物理所要做好这个实验室的耗材的检讨跟处理以上了解好谢谢那我们再请我可以再请院长院长抱歉院长我想因为刚刚有提到因为这是物理所嘛但是刚刚有讲到全院都有所以我们是不是可以因为刚刚这个总务处把这个细节讲得比较清楚但是不是可以提供给我们一份完整的调查报告"},{"start":266.361,"end":285.336,"text":"裡面要包含現在我們到底對這件事情的一個集合上面強化了哪些SOP還有這次的獅子人員我們會如何的懲處以及我們未來會如何防止研究人員成立私人經過再回來拿標案的利益迴避的機制可以嗎好 那一個月內可以嗎一個月我不曉得可不可以可以嗎"},{"start":287.045,"end":306.685,"text":"因为听起来一直都有在检讨嘛应该是可以吧对不对两个月好了让他们多点时间他们刚都已经一直在检讨一个月啦他们都OK了好不好谢谢院长谢谢那再下一个就是来回到我们的儿童科普日那我想还是非常感谢因为我这次也还是有去那我也听了这个讲堂的部分我觉得真的讲得非常精彩"},{"start":307.426,"end":332.214,"text":"那我看到现场也非常坐无虚席也许多的年轻的孩子也都非常享受整个过程那我想这个科普日非常叫好又叫座那我也想跟院长再请教一下我们有没有可能再进一步就是说我们现在啊这个中研院有这么多的博物馆那我们这么多博物馆我想了解一下我们现在的博物馆大概是谁来参观为主啊"},{"start":333.26,"end":355.938,"text":"这个参观的客群,我本人不太清楚,我们可能要统计一下才能跟维吾尔回答。好,那可不可以我们也来了解一下,因为我想这个整个馆长,我想中研院一开放,哇,真的是到处都有小朋友都非常热切的参与,所以我想大家对于中研院的各种知识的探索充满了好奇,那我觉得博物馆就是一个最好的老师。"},{"start":356.458,"end":375.616,"text":"那是不是有可能我们来了解一下我们到底博物馆目前的一个到底是谁来流量多少我们有没有可能在针对于小孩的部分来去增加一些吸引让他们也可以来参与的这个展览不知道是不是可以再来跟院长来请托"},{"start":376.457,"end":391.492,"text":"我想这方面的我们会朝这方向思考但是是不是可行还有很多问题可能需要配套措施解决因为毕竟我们是一个研究单位我们不是一个博物馆"},{"start":392.152,"end":415.652,"text":"但是我跟院长报告一下你看这是2024年翻转教育的报告2020年他推荐哪里其中一个就是中研院的历史文物陈列馆所以我想这个地方是蛮有吸引力这样科普日一开放的人都非常多那我们是不是可以看现有的资源像人力上面我们有没有可能因为这也是附近学校的老师的请托有没有可能我们朝这方向努力"},{"start":416.252,"end":424.32,"text":"好喔,那這個部分的話我們就是大概什麼時候研議大概需要多久的時間呢?這個,市域所可不可以解釋一下這個"},{"start":427.174,"end":454.45,"text":"委員好 我是食育所的副所長林勝志關於這個科普方面向來是我們博物館推動的成年館推動的一個重點那這本來就是我們在做的事那我們現在會在我們現有的人力跟經費上來擴充活動那包括線上還有實體展方面我們都會進一步加強然後我希望可以在"},{"start":455.952,"end":459.409,"text":"一个月内可以给委员一个清楚的答复"},{"start":460.049,"end":487.612,"text":"好喔 謝謝喔那我想因為畢竟中研院還是以學術研究為主要的工作啦所以是在人力跟經費上面時間許可上面我們再來做進一步的開放那在下一個部分我也想跟院長再來討論一下就是說去年其實我有針對中研院啟動一個兒童高溫的研究因為整個氣候變遷熱傷害對兒少的影響其實是非常非常的大那當時這個中研院是說他們可以做一個前導性的研究那我也看到一個研究的相關的計畫了"},{"start":488.453,"end":511.47,"text":"所以今天我想要跟院長再來請教一下就是說我覺得這個計畫內容非常的全面也非常的符合我們這個兒童在學校裡面的一些熱傷害防護的一個方向但是我想要再跟院長爭取一下我們是不是可以在這份研究的基礎之上"},{"start":513.671,"end":533.14,"text":"在针对不同气温下的儿童活动限制以及提供一个铺面或校园绿化的标准以及第三个是热风险跟高温早期预警系统的建议这三个部分是不是有可能再延伸到这样子的研究呢请于高主任回答"},{"start":534.434,"end":561.303,"text":"委員好環變中心主任陳玉高跟你做進一步的資訊溝通其實我們今年已經用既有預算做一些初步的工作我可以會後提供我們最初步的結果給委員參考後續剛剛委員揭示的就是我們有初步成果之後後續要接到管理面的這部分可以在後續等資訊更完整一點我們院裡面會考慮"},{"start":562.203,"end":585.051,"text":"讓同仁們找到更適合的合作對象一起來完成這件事情所以這個聽起來是可行的嘛 對不對好 謝謝因為我想從研究到務實上面還是真的蠻需要中研院給予一些建議那最後我也想請院長就是說我們是不是有可能成立一個跨領域的兒童熱健康研究小組結合氣候醫學教育跟城市規劃領域來強化科學與政策的一個連結呢"},{"start":587.25,"end":613.052,"text":"这个我们回去研究看看好哦这是很崭新的构想但我们没有考虑过对我们思考看看思考看看那我一样一个月之后再来跟中研院来了解一下思考的结果好吗两个月还是要更久的时间院长很喜欢两个月呢好啦两个月啦这个就两个月好谢谢哦好谢谢好谢谢张亚林委员执行那行政部官员请回座"}]}},{"id":"165366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facef459ae01ed6fde08e72a0011d4bca9f9999b3dda73827680f88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:21:35 - 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請廖院長請廖院長陳委員長"},{"start":17.915,"end":41.406,"text":"院長早 院長這幾天媒體有報導在中研院的員工有爆料說中研院在10月6號辦理的這個建築與空間展這個活動呢邀請到吳四耀議員及李燕秀委員那中研院的新聞稿呢卻沒有露出李燕秀委員的照片這質疑我們中研院是立場不中立院長你覺得這是不是有什麼誤會這個我想這個很大的誤會那詳細我們請那個總務處說明"},{"start":43.467,"end":68.31,"text":"那請您簡短說明是 委員好我們當天氣氛非常的融洽吳世耀委員跟聯繫委員到場那因為聯繫委員當天有公務的行程在參加我們第一階段的演講全程參與以後他必須要趕其他的公務就先離開那剩下是吳世耀委員後來我們第二階段現場展覽跟導覽的時候是吳世耀委員在參與所以我們在公告的照片的時候"},{"start":68.49,"end":93.829,"text":"活動的照片上面就比較多吳思耀委員的照片所以就是因為校園待在現場的時間比較長所以比較有機會就是在參與的過程裡面拍比較多的相片那中研院是我國最高的學術研究單位也一直都謹守學術自由以及學術中立那這個部分呢我如果有誤會就藉這個機會來澄清我不希望說有任何人隨意的貼標籤將中研院貼上說不中立這個標籤進而影響到這個中研院的這個學術的發展"},{"start":98.072,"end":121.193,"text":"那其實針對這個事情四要委員的回應是說當天他因為全程參與將近三個小時所以說如同剛才你們所解釋的就是說他待的時間是比較長的那其實李燕秀委員她是非常明理地看待這件事情燕秀委員表示說只要對中研院好對南港好對台灣學術地位好她都全力以赴所以她覺得不需要再太多的聯想"},{"start":121.713,"end":146.065,"text":"那既然當事人其實對這件事情都很客觀那中研院員工所謂的偏袒所謂的呼籲是有什麼深意嗎我覺得這個部分如果是自己中研院的員工面對這樣的事情自己都沒有用很中立很客觀的事情來看待我覺得這個是會影響到大家對中研院的一些觀感所以這個部分而且我在這邊講一下其實要挑選新聞的這個照片其實蠻難的啦"},{"start":147.165,"end":170.945,"text":"我們是要先挑選人還是挑選主題還是挑選我們整個的構圖版面那如果說看起來很好的構圖可是人剛好眨眼睛的做怪表情的那張照片能不能用所以這個部分尤其像我們自己在地方跑行程我們經常出現被斷手半臉這種相片我們也有時候也是會跟主辦單位抗議啊但是他說沒有啊那就是我們我們線長要放在中間啊"},{"start":172.645,"end":186.39,"text":"那我们理解在这个相片的处理上但是如果说已经有经过这个事件的提醒将来我们在处理的时候是不是要更细致一些谢谢好 接下来我要请教院长关于AI应用的这个个资使用界限的问题"},{"start":187.39,"end":203.898,"text":"本期在去年呢在质询的时候有问过中研院是不是能够辨识AI的科技那当时其实中研院的回应是说是没有办法做的没有办法做就是说如果有影片出来有时候在我们自己以人眼是没有办法这样子辨识的"},{"start":204.338,"end":220.451,"text":"那随着AI越来越发达应用也是越来越广院长目前我们有什么新的方式新的科技来辨识AI的科技还是说我们有什么方式将民众来辨识就是AI的手段目前有吗我们请我们这方面专家来回答"},{"start":225.645,"end":246.67,"text":"這個現在因為網路開放然後又深層式AI產生其實這個Deepfake那樣的技術在十幾年前因為我們在處理數位典藏國家型計畫的時候必須修補老影片所以那時候就發展一些一系列東西沒想到在這個現在這個Deep Learning發展了以後產生這樣的問題那基本上目前"},{"start":247.17,"end":263.65,"text":"如果說我們沒有在深層的這些影像或者是視訊裡面放入浮水印的話其實在後來的深層的時候是不容易辨別它是真偽大概是這樣以現在的技術是還是很難去辨識"},{"start":265.912,"end":286.126,"text":"基本上是很難辨識而且現在因為網路開放反而是那種比較大的機構或國家它可以來主導網路的世界所以當它要污染某一個領域的時候它可以大量的用它的規模來製造一些網路上的東西"},{"start":287.066,"end":306.042,"text":"這也是本席今天提出來一個很擔憂的部分來我們先看一下這個左邊這張圖是現在很盛行的這個APP的生成的雪景圖那最近在網路上非常多人使用它真的生成起來的圖片很唯美很浪漫所以很多人使用"},{"start":306.542,"end":332.424,"text":"但是這種透過上傳就使用者上傳影像的方式是不是可能導致APP的開發商導致中國來掌握這些使用者的生物特徵那這個雖然在網路上看起來的圖片非常美因為我自己因為各自的安全我自己不敢用我的相片所以我這隻貓咪是我助理的貓咪就是你看生成起來是真的很好看但是你上傳了你把你的資料都給他了把你的圖片都給他了"},{"start":332.904,"end":351.736,"text":"那也有網友紛紛發現就是說中國的很多APP呢它其中的AI功能會經未使用者的同意未經使用者的同意呢擅自使用它的相片來作為廣告用途那中間的這一個就是它之前用過的一個APP之後把它上傳的相片拿來做廣告了"},{"start":352.316,"end":370.43,"text":"甚至也有APP会擅自的开启手机的相机功能所以民众也怀疑说日常生活中是不是就早被窃听这样子的AI功能使用界限我们要如何认定中研院你们有没有针对这些AI使用隐私个资问题来进行研究"},{"start":372.817,"end":396.597,"text":"這個部分因為你只要上網的話只要上網的話這些內容就有可能會傳出去因為數位化的關係數位化的東西它可以不會損失的這個當然我們知道我們上傳因為網路這樣子是一個非常非常開放的所以你上去的資料就有可能被各方可能被各種有心的人士去利用"},{"start":396.997,"end":414.724,"text":"但是針對這樣子的相關的問題我們還是要對它進行研究跟分析AR的應用是越來越多元啦之前比較剛開始是對話式的AR那現在廣泛應用於各種影音的生成那影音生成的這些內容跟使用者的個資後續"},{"start":416.445,"end":442.624,"text":"要怎么样来规范未经使用者的允许他们做二次使用其他使用都是很重要的课题那我希望说我们中研院这边除了AI科技的应用之外我们也应该对相关的这些AI跟使用者的权益我们要进行相关的研究我们日后可以有这样的数据有这样的资料我们提供给相关的单位这个部分是院长我们这边可以来"},{"start":445.002,"end":468.416,"text":"來做這樣子的研究呢我們中研院現在資創中心有幾位研究員在研究這個浮水印的部分這個部分在20年前非常紅但是因為最近深層式AI的產生跟網路的發達然後算力的增加所以這件事情現在又被那我想您這樣回答應該就是對這個部分你們也是重視的"},{"start":469.096,"end":485.605,"text":"我们一直都很重视那对后续相关的就是有这样子相关的研究跟有报告的话请也送一份资料到我办公室让我了解说现在众议院对这个部分你们到底了解多少掌握了多少好吗好谢谢那接下来我想请教院长"},{"start":486.545,"end":511.276,"text":"中研院的業務報告上面有說知識饗宴系列的科普演講在YouTube頻道上累積了180部的影片那平均的觀看次數超過1.9萬次這個部分的本席是很肯定中研院的努力但是對這個YouTube這個頻道的經營我還是要提醒一下我們中研院的這個YouTube頻道從2016年設立到目前有"},{"start":514.285,"end":532.784,"text":"14000的订阅者院长你觉得你对这个订阅数量是满意的吗你觉得需不需要再提升我想这个当然是越多越好但是我们大概也是锁定的比较知识性的族群而不是一般所有的音乐性的网络那样子"},{"start":532.904,"end":556.748,"text":"知识的族群之外我们是希望越来越多人他愿意在这样的可以随时点阅随时知晓的这个状态之下去接触那再来除了知识响应人以外的影片大部分的观看次数都没有超过5000次院长你有思考过可能是什么原因吗我们请的业务单位回答"},{"start":558.701,"end":574.583,"text":"秘書處處長鄭國祥報告委員我在想這個其中的原因之一就是因為現在有e-learning所以許多有這個譬如公務員他有學分需求的這一塊他們可能就會到那些平台去當然我們還有很多改進的空間我們也會持續的改進謝謝"},{"start":575.404,"end":601.115,"text":"因為其實我們相關的這些影片我會希望說你們不要局限自己自己先設限說我們是希望推廣給比較知識性的這個族群那我也希望說你們可以去參考這個知識饗宴觀看次數比較高的原因是因為它比較淺顯易懂還是它的內容比較吸引民眾比較生動那希望說我們未來在推廣科普的時候可以定定就是我們自己定一個目標"},{"start":601.855,"end":609.369,"text":"YouTube的這個訂閱跟觀看次數有提高的這個目標讓我們相關的講座相關的活動有更多人可以參與可以觀看可以嗎"},{"start":611.189,"end":631.503,"text":"我們請亮好 那我再佔用一點時間今年度我們重要的國際學術交流活動台灣橋樑計畫在前天啟動也邀請了31位諾貝爾得獎主來台以公開演講或小型討論等比較多元的方式跟國內研究人員進行交流真的是非常難得"},{"start":632.324,"end":655.537,"text":"那這個台灣強良計畫是由中研院跟台大共同主導那除了邀請諾貝爾得獎主來台演講之外呢後續我想知道是我們有沒有規劃更多的學術合作的計畫或是有沒有跟大學進行課程合作讓我們學生呢能夠把握這麼難得的機會跟諾貝爾獎的得主有更深度的交流的機會"},{"start":657.586,"end":683.366,"text":"国际处处长报告我们的确已经跟台大开始设立两边的学生可以互相去对方的这个讲座来听讲那台大也已经开了一个课程这个课程也让我们的国际研究生都去休课那这个课程就是专注于这31位得奖主他过去的研究成果让学生先有一个了解之后再来听讲所以是有开这样的课程所以台大有开这样的课程那我们跟他共课"},{"start":683.826,"end":700.406,"text":"在講座的部分其實本席有看過這個報名的表單那上面沒有提供即時線上參與的方式我想問一下可不可以研議讓中南部的民眾他們可以用線上報名參與的方式就是在線上可以觀看講座"},{"start":701.667,"end":717.432,"text":"報告委員因為這個事情牽涉到著作權的問題那目前應該是有點困難但是因為我們所有的講座三十幾場講座都會都對全國民眾開放他們只要掃QR code之後就可以報名就可以來參加完全沒有任何限制"},{"start":718.032,"end":744.276,"text":"那后续我们这个讲座的内容会不会上传到我们的YouTube频道这个我们会跟和平基金会来研议那目前正在讨论这个可行性如果有进展再跟委员报告因为这是非常难得的学术交流如果有相关的这些可以让民众他们随时可以上去看的话我想这个是很难得民众也都会觉得会把握好我们会朝这个方向研议这个部分来请你们研议是是好谢谢谢谢苏西"},{"start":744.777,"end":745.74,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員 官員請回座"}]}},{"id":"165365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face59c73c27f5effb2a8ff38efa2589ba08999b3dda738276804cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:19:07 - 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署長好 這個每次食安出問題我們食藥署長都告訴大家這個劑量吃了不會死 然後不會中毒我幫你回顧一下 就從你上任開始不管是食安疑慮還是已經發生的食安問題你怎麼跟大家說的第一次取消日本福島食品這個進口限制我們江署長說在日本吃得很開心"},{"start":50.031,"end":51.42,"text":"那第二次呢 驗出這個萊劑的株"},{"start":55.19,"end":79.797,"text":"我們江署長就說每天吃也健康無虞從沒有見過人吃萊克多巴胺中毒因為知識缺乏才會擔心那第三次是黑心大腸為了破案食藥署6月已經接到通報卻拖到10個月才下架讓民眾多吃了4個月的黑心大腸那現在芬普尼雞蛋署長你又說60公斤這個重成人"},{"start":84.398,"end":105.155,"text":"一天要吃100顆雞蛋慢性風險是一天7至8顆持續吃一輩子才會有問題如果擔心可以這幾天先不吃蛋署長我想請問你啊人民吃下肚的東西要靠這個食藥署把關但是你每一次呢一而再再而三的挑戰人民的信任"},{"start":105.976,"end":130.136,"text":"我再提醒你一次 沒有人想要吃到有毒的東西實際上就是0跟1的關係 沒有其他的關係身為署長 如果你都有容許模糊 有灰色地帶那整個體系就會爛掉 你知道嗎那現在我們芬普尼的雞蛋問題2017年你自己有分析過 2017年的時候你接受天下雜誌的訪問 當時你是台大的醫師"},{"start":133.168,"end":152.701,"text":"毒理學副教授你自己說過超過每顆每日容許值不會急性中毒但健康風險提高設施不允許發生的那8年前是不容許發生的為什麼到了2025年你卻用了要吃100顆才中毒來合理這個違法殘留"},{"start":154.489,"end":167.242,"text":"報告委員這邊跟您整體一併的說明先從蛋的部分來做說明分普尼雞蛋的時候當初了解的情況下其實是整個還沒有背景的調查"},{"start":168.817,"end":188.533,"text":"不知道狀況怎麼樣調查之後發現整個的狀況是長期的 暴露了所以在這種情形之下是全面性的跟現在這個我們經過七年來107年一路以來持續努力4282次裡面 業裡面有一次前面現在是做所謂的"},{"start":190.255,"end":210.126,"text":"隨機抽樣出來的結果要告訴我們所有的機場應該是隨機抽樣出來的結果為我們施政的依據在這樣的前提之下我們認為現在的可能的我們精準的知道在這一個場裡面所以在這個場裡面我們必須要做風險評估為基礎之下這個科學證據之下"},{"start":212.307,"end":226.263,"text":"你昨天公布的這個檢驗數據啊雞蛋檢出這個芬普尼代謝物是0.03ppm那羽毛更高是這個0.27ppm那代謝物是0.13那目前你跟農業部研判的問題是什麼"},{"start":227.704,"end":244.15,"text":"是環境還是殺蟲劑我其實難以跟幫忙就是說農業部但是以我的專業來去判斷這個應該是噴灑在雞隻的身上羽毛經過皮膚或者著食之後吸收到體內產蛋的時候就出現我們規定的是0.01ppm以下你怎麼去研判的呢"},{"start":247.311,"end":268.757,"text":"這就是我的專業所在所以有時候這個部分其實要去了解的是因為飼料裡面要進來很困難環境用藥它其實是凝膠劑因為它關在鎖起來飼料你怎麼確定它很困難因為其實這件事情之後其實農業部有些部分他們我們跨部會裡面他其實有驗過那你有去抽查其他的地方嗎"},{"start":269.878,"end":275.028,"text":"這個現在就是因為抽查在機場的部分會是在2017年的時候就已經查過全國為什麼到你這邊就不行了"},{"start":279.693,"end":298.999,"text":"那時候的查過前果是歷年來我們今年度就已經查了460件不是今年都沒有記住我是說你發生之後為什麼不查重點是整個的全體的現在隨機查出來的結果告訴我們的證據是你為什麼要隨機你為什麼不要全面清查我現在講這件事情你為什麼你要隨機呢"},{"start":301.679,"end":324.402,"text":"這件事情特別跟委員做說明是不敢查還是怎麼樣還是怕查出來沒辦法應付現在查的時候呢 必須要在全面性的機場的在前端就要查了所以我們現在在跟農業部這邊能夠協調怎麼樣前端的要去查我們後端的是持續今年度400多批今年這個月呢 持續還是有我們的計畫向下還是有批數要來增加你試料驗幾件"},{"start":325.783,"end":342.133,"text":"我們今年呢 只驗了兩件嘛 對不對我們今年呢 總共驗了461件那這個月呢 彰化其實驗了44件那除了這以外 你現在就是因為我說你飼料驗不出來才要頭痛啊那是因為目前看起來是噴在身上"},{"start":343.053,"end":364.96,"text":"飼料上面有這件事情它怎麼會噴到牠身上為什麼要噴到牠身上剛才林委員其實非常專業的有說明了因為雞隻是龍雞 住得很小所以牠連轉身都很難去把自己的身上的雞屍感染清乾淨所以有些可能這個雞農用年紀我不知道特別是幾歲所以林委員剛才提示得非常精準的說這個因為牠都癢"},{"start":367.961,"end":388.995,"text":"因為養就會影響下蛋所以就影響產量所以在這種情形之下呢他們就想辦法能夠解決問題可是解決問題是用錯的方法其實是有核准的相關的用藥的這個都是農業部在管理底下的所以是農業部在負責嘛 對不對我當然知道不是完全不是食藥署的這個責任但是農業部的問題確實也大只是說你2017年發生這個問題的時候你們把全國雞蛋這個蛋機廠都掃了一遍為什麼現在不做"},{"start":395.939,"end":422.459,"text":"蛋機場少 蛋機場只要進入廠裡面都是農業部在管所以現在我們是要主決在食安五環2.0在主環在最前面那一段你現在講說百分之百雞茶它不是科學就對了這件事情容我說一下這個抽查是要精準的跟經過規劃的如果每一顆蛋都抽查完之後呢那顆蛋就不能吃了"},{"start":424.505,"end":436.119,"text":"那我們要用批次來抽查跟能夠地點來抽查這個部分我們一定會繼續在按照規劃裡面持續做不會讓這個努力的要去做的那你現在有確認你現在有確認這些雞這些污染的雞蛋它確實是噴了農藥才感染的"},{"start":442.987,"end":461.04,"text":"是誰噴的 為什麼噴有抓到源頭嗎 有沒有源頭這個是檢調 有沒有源頭我在這邊一定讓我講一下我要非常非常感謝彰化縣衛生局的局長葉彥博業局長非常機警的也感謝食安辦我們在10月5號通報之後立刻啟動了檢調進去機場裡面"},{"start":464.002,"end":491.446,"text":"也在很專業的選擇哪邊的雞比較可能有問題去那邊的雞因為四萬顆雞五萬隻雞四萬顆蛋五萬隻雞你要抽中一定是一眼望過去哪邊是高風險的在這麼專業而且檢調協助農業方衛生方去檢雞毛拔出來雞蛋拿出來食品環境全部都我還是問你你不要講那麼多那到底查到源頭了沒有"},{"start":492.816,"end":502.525,"text":"查到了沒有嘛雖然說是檢調不公開但是已經公開說就是大家想像的那樣應該是推論是噴在雞的身上對 誰噴的嘛"},{"start":504.679,"end":525.301,"text":"一定要問機場的人他們目前那個後面的筆錄我就沒辦法問了所以你們現在已經確定是這樣就對了我沒辦法確定啦但是後面筆錄的部分應該是檢察官他們會問問完之後最後起所以你現在答的你現在講的是就是說他就是在現場人家噴的你現在說法是這樣嘛對不對那如果不是呢芬普尼呢會有"},{"start":527.202,"end":544.367,"text":"這一次如果驗出來不是呢因為這個 因為又沒抓到咧報告 報告委員因為這部分在檢調在調查其實他們很努力證據明確 方向正確我相信檢調跟農政跟衛生因為我們已經相信你很多次了嘛對不對 可是一直都出狀況不是嗎"},{"start":546.792,"end":573.498,"text":"這個只說明了那個芬芙尼蛋那其他的我可以一併的說明一下那對於管理的部分我們持續會以最高標準的來管理那對於食品安全我們會用風險評估為基礎不是 那個署長我這樣講啦如果今天查出來不是的話你要不要負責我想噴雞蛋你要不要嘛 你要不要負責我說噴雞蛋噴在雞身上是農政單位"},{"start":575.293,"end":600.544,"text":"我這邊後市場端我們想盡辦法該抽的4282次我們從這麼多年來所有農衛政單位的同仁們齊心合力去做了這麼多把關去確定有異常就告訴全國的國人好啦我希望你們這邊繼續追蹤下去啦一定的好那你浪費我時間太多了那我最後問一個簡單的啦主席不好意思部長"},{"start":603.817,"end":631.63,"text":"部長關於我們提的這個癌症防治法的修正草案我看你們整體都不是很支持是吧應該是這樣講我們很支持的就是加速讓這個癌症的新藥可以讓病人用到為了讓他加速可以用到我們就還沒有修法我們就已經先在健保基金裡面現有的健保基金裡面因為我們修正的第五條是一個政策宣示也可以說是一個行政機關的自我期許"},{"start":632.35,"end":651.347,"text":"那但是法律條文才會有約束力啦你之前所以我們才會提出那第16條我們希望建立的是癌症心要多元的支持基金核心很簡單就是要有穩定的裁員明確的用途但你們的意思是說現在有癌症心要暫時性的支付專款就夠了"},{"start":652.128,"end":679.591,"text":"那問題是這筆錢是公務預算的挹注沒有明確的法源沒有穩定的機制也就是說今天可以編明年又可以不要了所以這種不定期的挹注根本是支撐不起來的所以我希望你們趕快把這個東西定案因為我們常常看到我們賴總統很多政策喊得也很漂亮喊一喊然後又沒有了 對不對所以我也不希望說我們這個變成一個口號能夠有實際的作為可以嗎"},{"start":680.488,"end":698.551,"text":"會 我們會持續的爭取預算來維持一直不斷的在擴充這些癌症新藥的納入因為剛剛也報告過因為要成立一個新的基金他需要有去籌措這個裁員那我們現在目前你大概多久會弄啊你的期程有沒有 至於有時間表嗎"},{"start":700.433,"end":719.702,"text":"這個難度很高啦要一線有財源以外喔等於就是你要新增一個什麼東西這個真的是難度很高有沒有心要做的問題而已啦對不對我們都有心在努力才會先去爭取用公務預算因為公務預算不穩定啦剛剛我就講啦"},{"start":720.622,"end":748.544,"text":"對不對 你那個東西不確定性那你如果實施之後今年有明年又沒有那怎麼辦不會啦 因為總統總統說用多少我們就會再補多少所以那你就趕快把法條列出來嘛那既然總統都背書了你現在來講我們是有一個法源就是用這個全民健康保險基金收支保管及運用反正我不管你用什麼辦法嘛反正就是這個基金你趕快你另外提撥一個專用的專款專用的這筆才對啊"},{"start":749.673,"end":773.326,"text":"目前這個也是專款專用不會留到其他的健保的其他用途專門就在用癌症新藥目前就是專款專用可是你那個是 等於是另外一個我認為那個東西還不太穩定啦我們大家的看法是這樣不然我們大家不會提出來啦所以部長你趕快 盡快啦 好不好我們繼續努力 繼續努力好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":779.576,"end":779.88,"text":"呵呵"}]}},{"id":"165363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facebf5bb7c46654a5f3fa47f864c5dfb45a999b3dda738276809aee49d70c0691da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:15:06 - 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請財政部長 請主席長謝謝 主席長 部長 兩位早安對於《財化法》的修正民進黨團提出來的《戰刑條例》我看到目前為止"},{"start":22.85,"end":34.192,"text":"我的看法是康他人之慨用社福為名對地方進行財政上的鬥爭但是我更遺憾的是"},{"start":35.598,"end":61.777,"text":"部長主席長你們都非常清楚知道統籌稅款是地方政府的稅客收入從第8條我們收入為國稅之後第8條我們垂直分配完之後中央留中央的按照比例地方留地方的地方即便分配不完他還是屬於該分配給地方的稅客收入依法有據"},{"start":64.571,"end":83.18,"text":"部長我有沒有說錯我到目前我有沒有說錯分配到地方按照公視分配完之後分配即便分配不完他還要是地方的稅收對不對地方應該分配的地方課稅收入我們的報告裡面說他基本性質上是屬於統籌稅款"},{"start":85.121,"end":110.874,"text":"統籌稅款 對 但中央分配中央按照公示第8條隨時分配完之後中央統籌分配給地方或分配給地方各縣市然後再水平分配再來分所以你們才會有在今年8月27號你們開完會之後你們說這還是屬於地方政府的裁員中央不能挪作他用財政部進一步表示白紙黑字寫在這裡"},{"start":112.659,"end":132.747,"text":"我沒說錯 但今天還是沒有錯嘛但是我更遺憾的是你們兩位都是從基層公務員幹上來的不管各政黨對於各樣事物有不同的意見你們按照道理 你應該是依法告訴他們"},{"start":134.437,"end":145.577,"text":"法源的依據在哪裡但是我更遺憾的是你剛剛既然知道財政部既然有說這還是屬於地方的稅款你怎麼只能說中央立場尊重"},{"start":147.469,"end":176.608,"text":"你應該依法說明我再次強調因為我今天好幾個議題要問不管中央要照顧長輩的生活輔助或者是做勞退的獎勵或者甚至對婦幼的照顧我都支持都非常好但是這屬於中央要做這屬於中央全國一致性的事務中央自己來做用自己的錢你要用那個稅計剩餘也好你要用什麼中央的錢我都沒有意見"},{"start":177.569,"end":191.8,"text":"但是如果只屬於中央的事務那請你們用中央的錢來做不要慷他人之慨這是我要再一次強調的中央跟地方直到現在包括一直在喊市權要轉移到現在才劃法暫時不做"},{"start":192.961,"end":217.174,"text":"天天在想辦法鬥地方所以我只想說主席長跟部長你們曾其林你們按照公務員來說你們應該是依法行政不管黨團各政黨有什麼樣的失誤如果依法無據或指責罪你們應該告訴他們哪裡不對你不要風往哪裡倒你就往哪裡倒這是我要提醒你的地方那第二點兩位請我請國發會副主委時間先暫停請國發會高副主委"},{"start":227.079,"end":245.433,"text":"副主委我們今天討論是經濟成長對於整個整理國家的財務分配的影響關稅戰的關係我們本來一開始說今年經濟成長保三有點困難但是我們今年AI還是不錯第三季可以達到7.64全年更可以保五破六"},{"start":246.754,"end":270.829,"text":"我有看到幾個數據包括我們今年在台灣破百萬美元的人大概超過75萬人在全球排名也是第15名足跡處也說明年GDP可能破4萬美金對於目前的經濟態勢包括在貧富上的分配這樣的說法副主委你的看法是什麼"},{"start":271.877,"end":282.641,"text":"我想大家都知道其實我們今年的經濟成長非常好那當然是跟AI的創新運用發展對 你直接回答我就是所有全民的經濟共享這樣的成績"},{"start":284.164,"end":308.806,"text":"大家有感嗎其實我想落差會不會很大基本上就是我們可以發現當然就是AI的發展會比傳產來得好然後高所得的人的所得的增加的確是比一些中金所得增加會高所以在美國關稅戰之後其實財務分配恐怕會更不平均AI好 好的人好在金字塔頂端那個落差非常大我有幾個數據"},{"start":309.727,"end":330.504,"text":"包括我們今年的民間消費實質成長已經連續兩年低於1%第三季也只有0.92%還是低於1%的水準也就是說過去幾年雖然財富的成長但是讓多數但是是不是多數民眾有感我打了一個問號包括這幾年我們最高的113年家庭的收支調查當中"},{"start":331.425,"end":359.931,"text":"全国最高的20%家户的平均收支是235万但是最低标的20%只有38.4万差距有6倍之多所以包括我们看到经常性的薪资有七成劳工他的领的经常性薪资是低于我们的平均薪资也就我们常在讲的我们国家常在说台湾说政府也好总统也好常在讲说我们经济成长数字非常漂亮但是"},{"start":360.831,"end":380.613,"text":"多數的七成勞工是感受不到的因為七成勞工他領的薪水是低於平均薪資的好那我的重點問題就來了副主委我們之前有提個AI產業計畫包容性的成長四年包括美國的橋水的基金會創辦人也提到就是說提到美國的一個現象就是說"},{"start":380.993,"end":406.991,"text":"美国因为AI的发展贫富差距会越来越大因为AI用的人少七成劳工未来工作在哪里可能不知道所以我们提了一个国家发展计划对于未来如何确保AI科技的发展红利未来对于中低技术的劳工怎么去做这一块的处理这是我第一个问题那对于产业人力再造新制结构的改变你们后续要怎么做处理"},{"start":408.249,"end":426.366,"text":"我想AI的發展是國際的趨勢很多國家其實面對的跟我們問題也非常的類似我想就政府來說其實是不是貧富差距未來發展下去只會越來越大均衡台灣沒有同意未來AI的發展貧富差距會越來越大因為"},{"start":427.367,"end":443.696,"text":"其實AI能做的就是固定那一些人那些人力所以我們AI的新十大建設裡面其實最重要的是創新運用裡面要百工百業富能也就是說不只我們只有一個護國神山我們要有護國群山也就是我們會讓中小微體驗但是實際的動作是什麼我們看到美國現在的狀況就是預估未來狀況其實是貧富差距越來越大"},{"start":452.608,"end":468.696,"text":"怎麼辦我想第一個我們一定要讓所有的產業不只是只有半導體跟伺服器相關產業起來我們其他的傳產還有一些服務業也要跟著起來傳產都快活不下去了然後第二個我們還是要其實我們有一些政策性的譬如說我們內需產業包括我們的觀光還有我們的這些金融產業我們也相對有一些措施"},{"start":479.122,"end":493.833,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該去做更精準的研標政府應該有更多的工具包括未來中低階層的技術勞工怎麼辦下一波在AI產業發展之後這些人怎麼辦這些才是經濟中弱勢的弱勢時間先暫停你請回我要請你用書面再更精準的回應我主席我想邀請衛福部的政次跟勞動部的政次請勞動部李政次衛福部李政次"},{"start":509.161,"end":530.391,"text":"主席 你時間一直在跑好 那再還給立委員3秒鐘拜託耶 何主任好兩位政策我關注到明年國民年金保費要上調就是說我們現在因為通膨CPI已經到達6.79%所以每一年的我們保費的金額會從43塊漲到84塊"},{"start":533.112,"end":561.553,"text":"那這樣的保費的漲幅會有270萬人受影響但是我要提醒兩位的就是說我們現在根據以前舊的數據我現在有的手邊有的我們有最新的數據喔等一下我也要請你們提供新的數據就是說國民年金的保費台灣這樣就有100萬人沒有繳這個保費那他沒有繳保費有很多不同的原因是經濟還有各方面的原因我不清楚你們應該有更清楚的言調"},{"start":562.974,"end":580.681,"text":"在337萬台灣被保險人當中有240萬人有很多不同的因素他領國民年金包括家庭主婦或主夫不同的因素或要照顧長照家庭的人士所以他就開始請你國民年金那這個保費的"},{"start":583.162,"end":593.227,"text":"漲幅我有幾個問題要請教就是說我們今年國民年金的2024金算報告當中我們國民年金的潛藏負債是多達6320億相較於2023年我們是減少了797億"},{"start":600.51,"end":629.77,"text":"所以我們今年比去年又減少了負債的狀況減少了所以我有幾個問題要請教就是說我們長國民年金的保費它的必要性跟急迫性是不是需要今年處理那你們有沒有評估過我目前我舊的數據有台灣有一百萬人沒有繳首期的保費如果保費再漲會不會有更多人繳不起那這些人數字大概有多少因為大家都知道國民年金影響是老人的經濟生活安全"},{"start":630.63,"end":652.68,"text":"辛苦的人中低收入戶 家都沒戶買便當都買不起 三餐都吃不飽他怎麼有錢去繳這個保費 這是我的問題所以我兩個問題 今年有沒有漲的必要性跟急迫性目前我舊的數據有100萬人連首期都繳不起這個漲幅之後 會不會有更多人繳不起"},{"start":653.32,"end":680.142,"text":"或不願意繳你們有沒有做過精準的評估那另外繳保費你們有沒有跟NGO團體做過溝通因為NGO團體就在講說繳不起的人更繳不起你請回應我非常感謝林先生委員對這個問題的關心陳副委員剛剛所說的國民年金確實是沒有參加其他所有職業別的一個民眾所以這裡面主要有三類一個當然就是說無一定雇主還有另外就是所謂家庭主婦或主婦另外就是學生主"},{"start":680.302,"end":694.638,"text":"你直接回應 我不想再用別人的時間我想重點現在是這樣現在目前這個部分我們在調的部分其實是根據國民年金法它裡面還有一個CPI的部分所以我剛剛問說有沒有必要因為我看到新聞你們說今年要漲"},{"start":695.439,"end":710.384,"text":"我擔心的是長不長是你們做政治判斷跟決定但去年跟今年的負債今年沒有去年負債的那麼高所以有沒有長的必要性跟急迫性然後另外我的問題是長了之後會不會有更多人繳不起保費"},{"start":711.204,"end":734.472,"text":"是 包委 那個我們現在目前這個部分當然有做一些相關的評估啦那這個其實 你有沒有擔心有更多人繳不起保費那你有沒有跟之前決定我從新聞上看到要繳保費你們有沒有跟NGO團體溝通過就是有NGO的那個團體這裡邊我們都有做相關的討論他們支持嗎那我們現在當然就是各方的一些我們現在都有一些各方的一些意見當然我們都會來評估嘛"},{"start":737.256,"end":752.367,"text":"他們不支持所以有沒有繳的必要性跟急迫性我希望你們評估清楚會不會有更多弱勢團體繳不起保費那就失去國民年金當時設立的意義現在台灣有一百萬人連收起保費都繳不起"},{"start":752.907,"end":766.031,"text":"以上就是今天講貧富差距我講說AI的發展未來如果政府沒有更多的工具去保障基層技術勞工台灣有更多人生活的會更困苦貧富差距只會越來越大謝謝好 感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝李委員接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員那等一下在本席質詢結束之後我們休息十分鐘"}]}},{"id":"165364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face41c7669fca8870725cb08f7d303ca8f4999b3dda73827680433ed581e36198385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:22:31 - 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我是保盤權署處長這個本案的類型它是在網路借貸 遭網路接觸吸收不是問個案我們現在目前我們跟國安局共有研討就是有網路接觸然後親友親情還有就是他救贖然後地下錢莊的借貸"},{"start":111.317,"end":130.134,"text":"等相關的管道然後現在首法我們都要研擬宣導資料像研擬在我們的保防單位去做宣導所以說我們的官兵在這個檢舉反應上的力度是蠻強的對國家認同也蠻深具的所以我可不可以這樣講說主要的還是因為金融的關係而非國家認同的關係"},{"start":131.255,"end":148.086,"text":"目前看起來80%以上都是財務的問題財務的問題因為我問這個問題原因是因為在跟這些國外的智庫跟政要在去交流的時候常常會遇到一件他們百思不得其解的事情比方說吳昭憲身邊的共諜吳昭憲身邊的共諜他的薪資是很高的"},{"start":148.866,"end":163.683,"text":"那為什麼他會想要做這樣的事情那是跟財務有關嗎還是跟他的價值觀跟國家認同有關我想這個部分國防部因為如果現在聽起來國防部相對單純就是以金融的這個問題困擾貸款為主"},{"start":166.055,"end":188.467,"text":"那其他的部會會怎麼樣那當然是大家要一起來檢討可能要跨部門因為我剛剛聽到你們說跟國安局所以這件事情我是希望有一個整體上面的一個分析最好是有一個分析的報告我們才可以知道怎麼去應處因為如果是以金融為主的話那我們應該會有相關的可以做警示可能有些問題出現了之前就可以做輔導"},{"start":189.608,"end":211.558,"text":"那如果不是以金融為主而是以國家認同價值觀或者是甚至是被威脅利誘等等其他的因素的話那我們就可以找出並爭之後才能夠有辦法來去做出相應的這個解決方案那部長接下來想要請教一下這個關於中國最新的這個軍事上面的改革"},{"start":212.718,"end":237.727,"text":"這個美國的智庫蘭德智庫最新的分析報告指出現在中共的解放軍正在小規模的實驗推動任務指揮他就是希望給下級有更多的自主權那報告有提到說中共他過去是雖然說是兵力是很眾多但是指揮僵化那也可能是過度集中指揮訓練也不切實際甚至有可能出現腐敗的問題那可能就是像過去就是像蘇聯那樣的狀況"},{"start":239.688,"end":259.339,"text":"僵化的體制儘管他們看起來是有很多的這個裝甲車但是只要遇到正式的衝突的時候他可能沒有辦法展現他的這個指揮鏈部長就國防部自己的這個情勢來研判中國現在是否真的有開始嘗試來去做這個指揮的體系的去中央化的這樣的做法不知道您的掌握的是怎樣"},{"start":259.619,"end":277.299,"text":"我們是有看到解放軍報是有這樣子的一個報導不過我們的評估是認為任務是指揮成功的基礎必須要有一個一定的權責下手讓各級部隊能夠充分理解上級的作戰意圖"},{"start":278.9,"end":297.593,"text":"各級的指揮官都能夠被適切的授權然後還要能夠信任部署那這個蘭德的報告裡面在10月22號有提出一個報告他裡面也提到說這個共軍要維持集中式的指揮最主要就是因為政治優先他會強調忠誠所以"},{"start":302.357,"end":314.554,"text":"這種引進西方軍事指揮的概念包括我們現在也在引進的這樣子的一個所謂任務是指揮或者是區中心化的指管這樣子這些概念的話他"},{"start":315.938,"end":331.566,"text":"這個必須就那個過去以來這個以黨領軍或者黨指揮槍這樣的整個的一個一個一個中心這個的一個思想的這種會具有相當的挑戰性會具有相當挑戰性所以我們認為"},{"start":333.027,"end":353.373,"text":"再加上中國最近整肅這個軍隊的高層這個看起來還是以政治忠誠作為一個部隊集中管制的一個最高原則所以要能夠 是不是能夠向全軍來推廣我們還是有充滿著這個疑問那我們會 但是我們會持續來密駐"},{"start":355.031,"end":365.216,"text":"但目前有聽到的消息是已經開始有做實驗性的推廣可以這麼說嗎我們目前沒有明確的有看到這樣子的一個模式已經到達了各部隊的這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":370.519,"end":397.579,"text":"只是看到就是說解放軍他有一個報導他認為說要認為向區中心化這個指揮架構來去重視他這樣子那我想這個部分我們也需要還要再來觀察他是不是真的能夠做因為我們得到這個資訊也是從這一個蘭德智庫上面來看到的"},{"start":398.072,"end":417.478,"text":"那我還是強調一下就是說如果我們有自主能夠得到中國方面的這些情報的話那對我們未來的這個掌握他們的能力是會有幫助的那單純的依靠一個盟邦也是不夠的我們自己要主動要有這樣的情資的來源"},{"start":418.158,"end":440.12,"text":"那最近英國跟美國之間那本來是都會完全的情報共享的這種狀況可是根據經濟學人的報導那英國跟美國之間現在有一些情報是不互相的特別是在跟美洲相關的事務上面所以說這個也是提醒說我們要有自由的情報收集能力來跟大家分享那再來就是關於空軍的部分"},{"start":440.6,"end":455.632,"text":"那中共的空軍11日他有這一個首次公開他們的無人攻擊11的戰機協同作戰畫面那針對這樣子的這個無人機我們現在掌握是怎麼樣他們的能力範圍是怎麼樣"},{"start":457.773,"end":482.69,"text":"這位簡單的委員好我們這個工情上面所看到的這個畫面在現在這個階段我們認為這個只是一個展示目前為止所看到的以展示的宣傳的這個目的為主那因為在要達到一個協同作戰的背後的這個各項的基礎科學的基礎是非常的複雜包括美軍也才剛剛開始"},{"start":484.912,"end":508.875,"text":"這個會對我們台海有影響嗎還是他是主要的目的不是我們會持續來關注這個部分的發展因為各種可能我們都會列入我們後面持續關注所以包含反制我們也在開始在思考怎麼樣的反制他們這樣子的協同作戰就對了我們會持續來努力 謝謝好 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內政部"},{"start":1651.844,"end":1673.848,"text":"通常會抒發部還有經管會法務部教育部及經濟部等機關來共同檢視各部會的一個防制的措施的規劃跟執行的情形並要求各部會能夠切實合作共同防堵詐欺的案件的發生在防制成效部分我們內政部警政署已經在今年的9月11號也要求各警察機關來籌組專案小組來針對普發現金的一個發放政策來加強收報詐欺廣告"},{"start":1681.068,"end":1705.604,"text":"廣告簡訊還有我們的社群媒體的帳號跟網站來阻斷我們所有的詐欺的一個資訊來源那我們也積極的一個溯源偵辦相關的案件從今年的9月12號到11月10號止我們總共通報移除的社詐廣告是56則停權社詐的帳號50個收報停止解析委貿財政部的網站有三件"},{"start":1707.076,"end":1718.618,"text":"那在市詐的宣導作為部分我們從多元的市詐宣導的推波警政署在防制普發現金衍生的詐騙手法在今年普發現金1萬元相關消息"},{"start":1720.578,"end":1737.23,"text":"公開之後我們就進行了一個事大的宣導那也製作宣傳的一個影片來喊請各縣市政府有線電視 協會各大銀行及合作的廣告商來協助加強的推播那我們也更與財政部來建立聯繫管道來交換雙方的一個宣導的素材"},{"start":1737.99,"end":1759.153,"text":"也形成我們跨部會的宣導統計到今年11月10號我們共計發送了2178則的新聞跑馬燈各式宣傳的影音然後圖文曝光次數共達到4597萬次在電視及網路的通路宣導部分為了要最大化的宣導觸及面所以我們警政署從"},{"start":1760.434,"end":1779.048,"text":"11月2號起就運用了114年的一個經費採購的電視跟網路通路推播我們本內政部的警政署來製作宣傳影片那也在包括多個電視頻道還有Facebook Instagram YouTube跟Google及各大的新聞的網路平台來做推播"},{"start":1780.009,"end":1794.727,"text":"那另外在地方電台的一個通路強化高齡族群的試炸宣導部分警政署也特別提出了一個加強長者的普發現金小公率及地方電台的防炸的宣導建議那我們也規劃採購北南部的合計32家"},{"start":1796.309,"end":1821.29,"text":"廣播電台通錄有35天的檔期那直播國語 台語 客語來普發現金做反詐騙的一個宣導影音檔那我們預計會在這個11月中旬就會開始來執行那我想廣告期間至少有所有的電台刊播會有60個檔次以上的一個反詐的廣告宣導那另外我們也跟財政部做相關的素材交換在雙方的電台的廣播"},{"start":1822.843,"end":1836.694,"text":"的一個音檔部分來確保範圍能夠覆蓋到全台灣那另外也考慮到我們普發現金都已經實施了所以我們也先行將反詐騙的宣導影音也提供給我們警察廣播電台那從11月5號已經開始做播放"},{"start":1837.575,"end":1865.444,"text":"在建制165的打詐儀表板的普發現金防詐專區我們也提供了最新的新聞跟資訊來及時揭露最新詐騙手法及防範重點那包括圖卡 影片同時我們也依照行政院的指示來分享普發現金官方網站的資訊來供各級政府跟民間團體來使用在積極查緝跟普發現金相關的詐欺案件及跨部會合作部分我們自本年的9月政府開始"},{"start":1866.728,"end":1887.639,"text":"籌備我們普發現金工作開始之後警政署就已經簽持續做積極的追蹤跟有關普發現金的相關詐欺跟被害案件那也積極的去溯源來偵辦統計到今年11月10號我們總共有七件的一個被害案件發生其中一件是釣魚案件那另外四件是假冒檢警"},{"start":1889.042,"end":1907.26,"text":"還有兩件是所謂的騙取金融帳戶的部分那相關的財損的部分釣魚網站的財損是5萬那另外假冒檢警的部分是822萬另外騙取金融帳戶就是卡片的部分的財損是0元那在建立跨部會的一個快速通報下架"},{"start":1908.283,"end":1932.648,"text":"涉詐的廣告機制跟溯源的查緝我們警政署也在今年7月12號就接獲檢舉之後在社群網路流傳有民眾接獲假冒中央存保公司發送的一個普發1萬元的釣魚連結那我們也迅速的將該假冒網站通報下架也交由刑事警察局來主動調查那在7月21號已經查獲假基地台的設備發送該釣魚簡訊的一個範寫"},{"start":1937.165,"end":1954.273,"text":"另外在跨部會合作的部分在今年的8月20號我們抒發部也召集了我們本部跟相關的一個部會來共同延商普發業務偉茂網站快速的RPZ程序的一個會議那我們也決議如果有發現到有偉茂"},{"start":1955.604,"end":1973.563,"text":"發放現金的網站會由財政部來配合財經資訊公司來主動收報也與我們的臺灣網路資訊中心來研議快速下架的一個通報流程那另外也速發部也會召集相關的單位來建置整合機制來說短整個的處理時效介於"},{"start":1974.54,"end":1998.752,"text":"我想普發現金的政策是惠及全民也促進社會共享但同時也可能會成為炸雞集團的一個寄餘的目標所以為了維護民眾的財產安全我們內政部也將持續依循行政院的一個整體打炸策略方向來深化跨部會的協調合作運用情資分析跟科技增防的手段強化預警 主炸跟偵辦的效能"},{"start":1999.824,"end":2018.269,"text":"我們也更配合各地方政府及相關機關來推動市詐 宣導跟防詐的教育來提升民眾的辨識能力跟防範的意識來確保政府補助政策能夠安全落實保障民眾權益來維護我們社會整體的安全跟信任那以上報告也敬請主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":2026.59,"end":2049.39,"text":"謝謝吳次長的報告那現在其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那現在進行答詢 委員答詢前原例做幾點宣告1 每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘 必要使得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘 上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2052.765,"end":2077.854,"text":"那本次會議我們不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見沒有那我們現在進行答詢請登記第一位的李博義委員發言有請吳長次還有警政署副署長請以上官員列席"},{"start":2080.809,"end":2105.655,"text":"市長我們兩天一次會昨天是陸委會那大家聚焦在一個焦點就是立法院中華民國台灣的國會議員在被對岸被中國被外國通緝全球通緝的事情那我想問你外國對台灣有什麼管轄權"},{"start":2107.582,"end":2130.456,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們中華民國是獨立的國家任何其他世界各國發布全球通緝有什麼效力我覺得這是個很不恰當的行為而且完全不能干涉到本國沈博洋委員現在仍在德國在中國發布全球通緝之後沈博洋委員非常勇敢現在仍在德國"},{"start":2131.437,"end":2150.473,"text":"參加獨裁國家對假資訊獨裁國家的假資訊對於民主跟人權的威脅聽證會那他做出最好的證人的這個聽證他說了This is Taiwan, this is freedomand we will never back down我們永遠不會退縮跟妥協那我想"},{"start":2153.604,"end":2178.63,"text":"這個對於我們整個台灣的人權以及我們民主的殿堂對於所有的台灣人來說我們都是沈伯陽我們都會挺他那所以我想在這邊對內政部來說這個非常重要的這一段話那也希望全國的國人一起來挺沈伯陽"},{"start":2180.546,"end":2209.603,"text":"今天主席所排的議程是這個普發現金可能會有的這些詐騙的這些事項所以我特別也請這個警政署這邊來署長副市長李副市長我請問你普發現金有幾個管道剛原報告目前是有四個管道是哪一個管道最容易會有詐騙的行為依照我們目前來看最容易發生詐騙行為的是網路"},{"start":2212.282,"end":2226.514,"text":"對長者來講我要講的就是數位落差對年輕人來講我要講的是就是副市長你講的網路網路最重要的我覺得要呼籲所有的我們所有網路使用者最重要最後要有一個"},{"start":2228.988,"end":2253.622,"text":"一定要看到這一個啦這一個才是政府的這個網頁所以你這樣點進去連結才不會會點到別的地方去但是另外對長者其實我會建議哪一個是對長者最有利的方式來副市長對長者的部分數位落差他最不會使用手機最不會使用網路他要怎麼處理"},{"start":2254.654,"end":2282.812,"text":"我們認為透過有幾個管道電視電視的一個宣導是一個管道沒有沒有我說長者要怎麼去領長者領因為長者每天看電視說什麼網路要怎樣要怎樣有什麼管道我會建議長者如果懂ATM的話或者到油局去登記去登記領的話會比較好可不可以直接到油局領就好我建議是如此這樣是最好的方式"},{"start":2283.576,"end":2301.267,"text":"雖然會增加郵局的負擔但是最好的方式其實對長者來講身份證、證件帶著去郵局領領現金這是最好的方式謝謝副長你稍等我要請這個金管會對不起速發布"},{"start":2312.031,"end":2336.12,"text":"我在選區裡面然後收到很多的這個陳情高利貸的簡訊的借款非常可怕他幾乎後來經過這個刑事局跟警政署這邊的調查你幫我看一下一整排16個借款資訊不斷的發到他的這個簡訊的系統裡面"},{"start":2341.496,"end":2368.304,"text":"那他是一個職業軍人他完全他他就打這些電話全部都是匿名然後這些人可能就跟他約在這個他的基地的對面的7-11全家等等這些直接交付現金然後簽了本票他有可能就是實拿13萬然後簽了30萬的本票這樣一列下來後來警政署查證刑事局查證之後是同一個集團"},{"start":2369.537,"end":2398.305,"text":"但是速發部這一邊卻沒有辦法對於這個簡訊的出資人跟資金來源做審核那審核到的是什麼審核到的是反而是有一些商店或者是有一些店家或者甚至有一些簡訊的這些發放的這個要申請的這些流程速發部你回去應該要好好檢討一下這一些事情你看左邊這些"},{"start":2399.395,"end":2423.665,"text":"你的評分通過60萬然後月付多少的這些我們並沒有對於他的簡訊的廣告業者規範他的出資人我覺得這一個就是同樣一個詐騙集團他可以同時買了可能10個簡訊的帳戶然後同時一直發放用不同的這個帳戶的名稱一直發放給某一些特定人"},{"start":2424.672,"end":2440.009,"text":"讓這些特定人受到這些高利貸的侵蝕蘇發部跟警政署應該要共同來研議怎麼樣防堵這些簡訊的系統再去危害國人好 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":2444.858,"end":2468.771,"text":"針對這個部分的話因為我們今天是另外一個素產署在負責那我們回去會把委員的意見跟我們素產署這邊來做一個這個傳達好那請你一個月內跟警政署共同給我一個方案謝謝好謝謝李博義委員的發言接下來請蘇巧惠委員發言不好意思張志龍委員發言"},{"start":2487.288,"end":2503.56,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請內政部吳次長請吳次長委員好好 次長早次長 我想要請教一下我們現在有一個新的獎勵辦法"},{"start":2505.031,"end":2529.387,"text":"的這個條文叫做防制詐欺犯罪有功人員及檢舉人獎勵辦法條文請問一下這個新的這個辦法什麼時候核定的我這邊是不是請警政署說明一下報告委員是10月1號發布的"},{"start":2531.212,"end":2558.493,"text":"10月1號發布的嘛齁在這個10月1號發布那我現在手上拿到內政部發的函是9月10號警政院在9月10號發給內政部所以要拜託這個次長齁這件事情我覺得非常重要因為這件事情就代表我們現在喔其實針對我本席一直關心的這個要防制詐欺犯不管對於我們的基層的同仁警員"},{"start":2559.195,"end":2581.092,"text":"或者是現在民眾或者是內部的吹哨者在針對這些詐欺防治的時候如果有去做檢舉這麼辛苦的一個工作應該有相對應的報酬我覺得這樣會比較好可是我現在就像剛剛次長回應我的請問一下現在基層員警對於這件事情的熟悉度高嗎請問你們已經有通報"},{"start":2582.953,"end":2609.123,"text":"我們現在有這樣子犯罪有工人員及檢舉人獎勵辦法的條文跟內容有沒有發到各個分局各派出所已經發了嗎什麼時候發的好謝謝委員指教我想剛剛委員說那個檢證署報導我們是9月我們在10月1號就已經訂定發布實施這是第一個那剛剛針對基層同仁的部分其實我們也已經在10月20號就已經函班這個相關的注意事項讓各地方的警察局"},{"start":2609.707,"end":2627.095,"text":"然後來窒息整個清零獎金的方式那也特別在謝謝市長因為我問基層很多同仁他們對這個方法相當不熟悉你可不可以簡單敘述一下這個辦法到底在講什麼內容我是不是請警政署可以請警政署上來講一下因為我認為很多人還不知道這個現在到底我們"},{"start":2628.055,"end":2645.377,"text":"要防治詐欺犯我們的獎金的制度到底是什麼是不是可以簡單說一下跟委員報告那就是有重大的查獲重大的詐欺起訴15人以上就有查緝獎金跟檢舉獎金那檢舉獎金最高是可以達到1000萬元"},{"start":2647.988,"end":2674.95,"text":"好我簡單來講就是您剛我特別幫你解釋一下就是如果是民眾或是內部吹哨者檢舉叫做檢舉獎金如果是三年以上未滿五年的徒刑他的這個獎金的金額是五十萬到一百萬那五年到七年的是一百萬到一百五十萬因為這個是比較容易見到那當然是要判到十五年以上有期徒刑才會獎金才會到七百萬到一千萬"},{"start":2676.153,"end":2704.176,"text":"所以我覺得這是第一個重點那對警察同仁的獎金那是不是可以請你說明一下剛剛講的是這個民眾跟吹哨者那對於警察同仁機車同僚同仁破獲犯罪集團的獎金的內容大概是怎麼樣各位報告我們同仁如果破獲這個詐騙集團我們也是依照新的辦法就是依照破獲集團的規模大小那獎金呢是從"},{"start":2707.338,"end":2731.616,"text":"最高的獎金可以到達600萬團體獎金最高到600萬這才是我今天要特別質詢的問題所以現在我在本席一直拜託行政院要趕快把這個獎金的制度發放確認了以後我想要請教現在從您剛剛說10月1號發布以後到現在已經11月多了有發放了多少獎金"},{"start":2733.597,"end":2751.229,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們顧及這個獎金發放的一個標準客觀的標準所以我們這個辦法裡面是案件必須起訴以後檢察官起訴以後才會發給這個獎金那因為才在10月中旬做了這個"},{"start":2752.199,"end":2778.282,"text":"整個這個獎金制度的一個通知所以今天到目前一個月所以目前獎金是還沒有發放現在已經11月已經有申請的案件所以你的意思是說這一個多月來這筆獎金一塊錢都還沒有發對因為必須等到案件起訴這是一個要件我們警察機關可能破很多案件移送到地檢署以後"},{"start":2778.917,"end":2805.113,"text":"檢察官會做一個起訴的動作那到起訴的時候來請教次長次長你聽到這樣的回應你覺得能接受嗎我們現在都已經把相關的這個獎勵辦法都已經這個行政院都已經核准在我們委員大家共同的努力之下結果一個多月來結果獎金發放的金額居然是零請問這個次長這個就要由您來協助了一個多月來難道都沒有任何的"},{"start":2806.956,"end":2821.511,"text":"難道都沒有任何的起訴是不是我簡單跟委員報告我想10月1號是公佈實施警政署也在10月底的署務會議也要求所有的各地方政府的警察局要有知道這個宣導的事項我想剛剛副署長談的就是說"},{"start":2823.893,"end":2839.903,"text":"可能在程序上有一次是要成案之後起訴才可以開費不過這個回去我會請警政署來進出因為過去就警政署而言我們都有編那些專案嘛對不對比如說就是檢舉完了以後他可以馬上拿到錢的這些專案所以我們現在已經給你一個這麼大的一個這個獎勵檢舉的辦法"},{"start":2841.875,"end":2864.956,"text":"結果一個多月來居然沒有人可以拿到任何一塊錢的檢舉獎金那變成空有制度沒辦法去實施那我也希望說今天次長在這邊副署長在這邊我們大家一起加油讓辛苦的員警因為就我了解我常在這邊跟大家報告基層的警員有時候看到這個很多車手他們都會身上都會藏著一些這個危險物品其實在執勤上是非常的困難"},{"start":2865.7,"end":2887.126,"text":"所以本席才一直拜託邀拜託也是請求在基層員警或是內部者在吹哨的時候相關的獎金應該要編列要發放而且那我再請教一下現在你們知道說這今年內政部編列的檢舉獎金是多少錢嗎預算114年編列檢舉獎金預算是多少錢嗎跟委員報告我們今年編列的預算是新台幣1000萬元"},{"start":2889.135,"end":2913.139,"text":"1000萬元而已嗎我看了內部的資料上次我質詢過我們內政部有編了一個1.3億的檢舉獎金那請問一下現在發放的金額是多少剛剛1000萬剛剛委員講的那個預算數那是各類型案那針對這個詐欺部分的詐欺的部分我們編列是1000萬聽起來真的是非常的少"},{"start":2914.244,"end":2942.909,"text":"那現在發了多少錢就算以詐欺的部分編列一千萬發了多少錢官員報告好手上並沒有這個資料會後可以提供給委員那目前都有陸續發出好所以今天拜託那個副署長跟次長就是看到這樣的問題基層員警大家在執勤的過程中非常辛苦可是如果你沒有獎金的話誰哪個員警願意去跟監去追蹤然後後續把這些詐騙犯或是詐騙集團給追出來這非常的辛苦"},{"start":2943.513,"end":2954.122,"text":"那所以說如果要要給他們在執行上有一些幫助的話所以我就認為他們那麼辛苦也要發相對應的獎金好謝謝謝謝委員我們會照顧繼承同仁好謝謝好謝謝張志龍委員那接下來我們請蘇喬惠委員"},{"start":2971.84,"end":2997.838,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請吳次長還有林副署長請副署長 林副署長委員好市長好市長 最近的最重大的新聞之一應該就是這個太子集團詐騙案那上次部長承諾就是一定要嚴辦 速辦那請問一下現在進度到哪裡好 是 那個簡單啦好 還是我請警政署說明一下目前的一個偵辦情形簡單 簡單 簡單就好"},{"start":3004.187,"end":3020.386,"text":"是謝謝委員那目前這個案子我們是那個刑事警察局跟法務部調查局都在台北地檢的指揮那已經有第一波的查緝行動那這個案子目前還在偵辦當中我想後續認為還會再繼續擴大嗎會會那涉外的人士比較多還是國內的人士比較多"},{"start":3024.551,"end":3027.073,"text":"抱怨因為這個案子現在還在偵查中所以不便公開 是好 那其實就我們目前從新聞上面可以掌握到謝謝從我們新聞上面可以掌握到的資訊其實是涉外的人士也有不少啦這跟其實現在國際局勢國際的趨勢詐騙犯 詐騙案"},{"start":3043.709,"end":3046.732,"text":"都有相當多的跨國這樣的概念其實是一樣的我們可以看到數據來自己顯示其實在台灣你看看從2022年之後我們在台的外籍人士涉及詐欺案件的案件數和人數都是快速的上升那請問一下次長或副署長你對這樣的現象有什麼解釋嗎"},{"start":3067.196,"end":3082.923,"text":"有沒有要加強氣場跟委員報告因為現在可以講國界的這個概念在這個科技發展的狀況模糊化了已經都模糊化了那科技的通訊科技網路之間的發展所以跨境的犯罪會越來越高"},{"start":3083.643,"end":3089.949,"text":"所以幾乎這就是我們的新型態了所以我今天最主要的就是要來請問你說那在這樣的狀況下我們針對這樣國界模糊跨國犯罪已經是常態那甚至是外籍人士在我國境內變成有這樣的犯罪行為的時候你要怎麼處置處理"},{"start":3104.632,"end":3132.205,"text":"各位我們報告我們警政署目前是透過我們刑事局的駐外聯絡官是那跟我們犯罪頻率比較高的鄰近國家呢大家都會組成共同打擊犯罪的這樣的一個共識但是這是非正式的組織嘛對不對非正式的管道嘛目前當然是非正式的組織但是我們目前就是說透過這樣的一個機制協同其他國家"},{"start":3132.705,"end":3135.566,"text":"共同來打擊我今天在這裡藉由這個質詢的過程當中既是提出問題其實也是幫警政署幫內政部警政署的同仁這個辛苦的付出講幾句話就是現在的犯罪類型確實是和以往不同"},{"start":3149.873,"end":3161.256,"text":"那甚至是更複雜這樣的狀況所以需要有更多的支援那我們來看看嘛首先我剛剛問你的是說你對現在這樣有涉外人士這麼多的犯罪情勢人事物有沒有分析就是你剛剛說比較多發生的地區哪一些地區的人或者是哪一些地區會有比較多的關聯性你們都有掌握了嗎你剛剛的回答是都有掌握嘛對不對我們對於發生的各類犯罪類型一定會進行相關資料的一個蒐集"},{"start":3179.64,"end":3198.095,"text":"收集一定有嘛而且目前也透過友好管道去回推再加強資料嘛對不對那我們甚至可以看到現在的這個外籍人士外籍犯罪人士可能有幫派化或者開始深耕的狀況甚至是外籍人士來台灣他從事的犯罪詐欺行為不是只有"},{"start":3198.715,"end":3223.065,"text":"坦白講就是騙 不是只有騙台灣人甚至是移工我們外籍人家是好好的來這裡台灣要工作的結果也反而遭到了詐騙這樣的狀態所以我想提幾個意見第一個的話是跨部會的合作比如說我們在看到勞動部在對這個移工進來的時候他有移工一戰式的服務關懷這種部分那他其實有對了很多他其實有就"},{"start":3228.72,"end":3247.551,"text":"防治毒品人口孕犯性侵害酒駕等等都有但是同樣的我們對於詐騙的這個部分其實我們去看所有的資料對詐騙你怎麼樣避免自己被詐騙我說的是移工被詐騙甚至是被同鄉詐騙這件事情目前是沒有提到的所以我第一我建議"},{"start":3248.531,"end":3262.768,"text":"內政部這邊可以跟勞動部這邊是再一次的合作檢視是不是有相關的資料可以去做通報這是第一個部分第二個部分的話就是其實我們也有學生的部分學生來台灣念書念一念以後卻在就有一些狀況之下他不小心"},{"start":3266.552,"end":3272.856,"text":"碰觸到了這樣的犯罪的組織等等也變成了相關的犯罪人士所以教育部也會有應該有相對應的狀況所以我第一個訴求應該是說我認為啦就跨國詐騙的這個部分內政部應該要主動就如同洗錢一樣跟其他部會合作聯繫次長這個部分應該沒有問題吧應該這樣做吧對包括移工啦包括那個外籍人士進來台灣那我想包括勞動部的移工還有教育部"},{"start":3296.793,"end":3302.039,"text":"尤其是學生甚至是入出境管理這本來是你們內政部的這些都應該要加強我們移民署這邊也有來處理這個部分這是第一個第二個部分的話就是我剛剛說要替大家說點話這樣的狀況其實我們這麼認真台灣的打擊犯罪的績效不差但是很可惜的因為我們沒有辦法加入國際刑警組織"},{"start":3316.716,"end":3330.285,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法在第一時間及時的跟全世界的其他相關國家有這種一件事的或者是及時的一案式的通報所有共享所有的情資沒有錯吧副署長這個部分你們認為有沒有加入國際刑警組織有沒有好處或壞處或遺憾或者是你們的想法是如何因為我知道你們署長剛剛去這個國際警察首長協會的年會也是談到了這件事情"},{"start":3346.797,"end":3347.502,"text":"當然跟委員報告"},{"start":3349.11,"end":3378.631,"text":"台灣的警察加入這個國際刑警組織這是警政署多年來一直推動的一個目標雖然過程有一些不順遂但是到目前為止仍然是警政署的重點工作24號這個月就是馬上要到了嘛11月24號到27號要在摩洛哥又要再開年會了嘛那我們有沒有希望能夠怎麼爭取加入你們的策略是什麼大概目前我們都透過由我的國家"},{"start":3379.572,"end":3393.263,"text":"協助發聲來幫我們爭取加入國際刑警組織這個部分其實到目前為止跟委員報告警政署非常重視這個工作一定會再持續努力推動"},{"start":3394.158,"end":3397.841,"text":"這個副署長還有次長這邊我是覺得非常遺憾因為這個是礙於國際的局勢所以我們一直想要加入國際刑警組織卻還沒有成功這樣的狀況我們可以看到其實你看看國際刑警組織有19個資料庫包括各類型的犯罪台灣都無法使用也沒有辦法及時接獲最高級別的棄捕通報這個紅色通報"},{"start":3419.781,"end":3426.144,"text":"所以等到我們知悉有通緝犯在台灣隱匿的時候常常已經時效過啦所以之前還發生過什麼西班牙的通緝犯 詐欺通緝犯結果在台灣已經待了五年了還開業了這樣的狀況這都非常非常的可惜所以其實我們應該就如同我們要爭取加入WHA WHO一樣是舉國之力來支援警政署支援我們台灣的警察可以加入國際刑警組織"},{"start":3446.494,"end":3451.095,"text":"所以接下來就是預算的會期大家要進行預算的這個狀況了我記得去年我們大家在這個旅費等等的這種部分會議的這些部分預算其實各位委員之間有不少的討論我是認為其實內政部也好警政署也好可以就像現在這樣子的例子"},{"start":3465.979,"end":3477.769,"text":"我們不但應該要加入國際組織而且應該要大大的加入甚至不只在年會的時候才去做遊說工作平時也就可以去了這些也都是需要國家的經費來支援所以我認為你們可以在爭取預算的時間把這些過去的努力及辛苦和需求大大的藉由預算會期告訴國人爭取更多的支持"},{"start":3491.881,"end":3509.473,"text":"也為我們辛苦的警察同仁可以多一點配備這是我的期許所以市長你要不要回應一下我想謝謝委員的指教我想對於警政署這個參加國際組織還有包括照顧基層同仁在預算上我想今年的預算我們這部分也都請警政署"},{"start":3510.014,"end":3528.699,"text":"把包括防炸還有像這些的一些的預算經費我們都有請他再努力再做增加到時候也請委員們來支持我剛剛講的是不只是打炸的費用是甚至是加入國際組織的這種部分其實應該要做的事情我們也會支持謝謝謝謝蘇喬惠委員接下來我們請王美惠召委"},{"start":3541.226,"end":3558.614,"text":"主席我們請常事我們請副署長常事和副署長早上常事在今天我們說政府要發大家都可以拿一萬塊在這個過程當中差不多在八月份"},{"start":3564.701,"end":3570.022,"text":"我們就開始很煩惱我們的百姓會被詐騙是一團糞便所以在我們中央政府的幾個當中就是說日本上市有的年薪多或是中低收入戶或是退休金或是國民年金都共差不多中間11類類"},{"start":3593.885,"end":3595.647,"text":"都主動會讓我們放在他們的肚子裡面現在問題最重要的就是他如果沒辦法登記他也沒辦法出門去念但是現在我們政府"},{"start":3611.581,"end":3613.423,"text":"也說 跟你們走會去方便也好 跟不方便也好我們是不是有規定在1月2日 拿你的健保卡跟身分證去郵局而已來 郵局的副總 來拜託一下"},{"start":3640.117,"end":3646.565,"text":"副總 教長 在這個過程當中 你知道當時要去你育嬌寧嗎?在位日時啦在位日時啦 跟你們說有什麼作為 有什麼安排嗎?有啦齁"},{"start":3658.361,"end":3665.405,"text":"整台都安排好了 而且都安排好了完全都已經訓練過了完全訓練過了 安排好了行環都有跟他訓練過 因為上面一百十二年也有一個經驗對 做得不錯 還可以改進空間所以我們在十一月二十開始念的時候"},{"start":3684.22,"end":3688.401,"text":"可以更好我們在這裡本身要跟你說的就是我們很怕有的事大人有的要去捏好會外面有一些不管什麼的會在那裡給你送給我送給你煮了來我幫你用就好了所以在外面我們有"},{"start":3709.417,"end":3712.359,"text":"警政署署長,你們這個要去配合,當地的派出所要去配合因為你不可以為了那一萬塊出來,我們去用平的那麼多錢,還要清清楚楚嘛我們都要用這個問題,來,副署長你要"},{"start":3729.909,"end":3733.412,"text":"謝謝 感謝委員對這個議題的關心本來遊郷就是我們警察存留的重點目標我知道啦在這個一萬塊的發展的過程當中 經濟事務已經通過國管局在這個發放期間 一定要派人去跟遊郷來協助防止各類犯罪情勢的發生這就是你說的重點"},{"start":3754.65,"end":3756.551,"text":"我知道你們都會去申請求求求嘛因為我們財委就是開始要求求求尤其你若檢報到新聞上去你就要求求嘛所以我們這裡就是說我們也能夠到協助啦不可以這樣出來剛才本席說的說還要奉陪一條還要請參當然當然"},{"start":3779.617,"end":3782.38,"text":"副總編本席要跟你說的就是說在裡面我們也有志工我們的同事說這段時間我們大家要辛苦一下因為會去郵局而已第一點他就是沒辦法登記"},{"start":3796.916,"end":3800.597,"text":"還會去我們郵局唸 還是去交會那種的所以我們要多協助他們出來的時候 健康這邊要到三天這樣 還是可以 最方便都好啦不像鄉鄉說我一個四天四天四天 大家都要來唸"},{"start":3819.564,"end":3822.965,"text":"來賓客客客 跟阿伯跟萬家牛仔跟娘子的人乾貨跟你們要給娘子的人乾貨這樣就不知道中央的用心良好說 啊 大家看一萬塊在那去新羅名就不好了來 副總請拜託回去跟蠟燭師傅說一聲辛苦大家多協助一下 來"},{"start":3848.855,"end":3852.757,"text":"在這裏 副署長 本席要跟你談到的就是說我們都深深刻刻都說 詐騙集團不管是什麼事情都會去牽連到詐騙集團現在政府的名義要拿一萬塊 詐騙集團來騙所以本席在這裏看的時候 你們說要打詐 打詐啦"},{"start":3876.425,"end":3881.049,"text":"在一百一十一年到一百十二年 你如果看這個數字喔 副市長你這樣看你會怕到嗎 沒感覺"},{"start":3893.732,"end":3896.374,"text":"但是我知道我們現在的署長是譬如一件案件以前都寫一件而已只要一件案件裡面有誤會受害者他就寫誤會就變成這個案件變一件就變誤會了"},{"start":3915.669,"end":3919.211,"text":"但是我要跟你說,雖然我們這是開水,也是輸血但是本身要跟你說的是,我們毋忘詐騙集團不管你是要發放什麼,或是秘書時的生活詐騙集團一定應用到我們大家的生活"},{"start":3936.479,"end":3941.142,"text":"變成沒錢了 聽電話 走到集團卡所以親戚朋友也沒辦法聯絡 還要報警察 也沒辦法報案現在的環境跟認證到你 我都說沒有 感染也沒有你想要怎樣如何"},{"start":3961.975,"end":3966.277,"text":"跟委員報告,這個現象我們都有了解有了解,我們有辦法做有辦法做,今年我跟委員報告所有詐騙發生的架構跟金額我們今年架構已經下降差不多五成,一半,快要到半了"},{"start":3985.508,"end":3990.89,"text":"我們怕三成財富損失下降要五成這是今年同期到今年同期來比那相關的已經都明顯在下降中那委員剛才講的這部分就是說詐騙集團影響我們人民之間民眾一時間的活性這部分我們如果透過相關的宣導還有其他相關的補回大家全力希望說"},{"start":4011.144,"end":4014.345,"text":"可以透過打擊詐騙跟相關的宣導來重塑我們整個社會整個復興的...這樣來 副市長你剛才說的我們今年跟店長 店很多人但是事實上 手裡又沒有人拜託廢後的信 你的資料上來...沒問題 沒問題主席 拜託一分鐘給我在這裡 我請移民署副市長"},{"start":4040.097,"end":4044.758,"text":"副署長因為時間的關係本身跟你談好 跟你有問題可以簡單回答回答我沒有回覆的時候 再處理給我現在就是移工 移工時間到 他會回去這是千金萬銷的 他回去他的銀行卡放給別人用"},{"start":4064.599,"end":4065.96,"text":"不讓人去念 跟你們說的說 他是正規政治的人喔他是時間要回到家 要回到他的故鄉啊 沒在台灣啊他就收到朋友說 你的卡就一樣裡面沒錢啊 這樣給我用就好了 不用再去辦"},{"start":4086.226,"end":4088.389,"text":"如果另外一個朋友是社區 片開用的時候他們會當當兇的啦 一個無辱的啦在那裡在那裡用 所以我們移民署"},{"start":4101.684,"end":4103.606,"text":"不管是違法的 還是時間夠要回去應該都要通報銀行 不能發生事情跟他的銀行說什麼出出入入 有異常的時候跟要來借錢的時候 不會有啦"},{"start":4121.62,"end":4125.362,"text":"我們北施台灣人 中華民國的北施是不便宜的 要再來一次就沒有了要不然我先通報這個人已經入境了 這個金融卡不能再用了所以這個問題 拜託開口給我回答一下委員 是不是讓我們副署長稍微簡單講一下 好吧 來"},{"start":4149.392,"end":4162.325,"text":"來 委員好 跟委員報告因為我們這部分行政很重要所以整幾年一直開花我們在九年的時候高檢署打造事法的時候我們就配合所以我們這個主流將對非本國企業"},{"start":4162.935,"end":4168.417,"text":"我們就有借錢給通常會那幾十萬幣他如果在借的時候他們都會知道金管會那邊也有借錢都完成但是我要說的要借錢他又沒有在我們中華民國台灣他的金融卡他的金融簿我又要借錢一定會拿他的金融卡給他們的工鄉在那裡使用"},{"start":4189.144,"end":4189.926,"text":"因為這部分他沒有在過來所以相關的機關他就去處理這段"},{"start":4196.38,"end":4198.821,"text":"剛才我講的就是相關的處理是發生有異常的事跟處理啦這你要去了解一下啦這是有異常所以說我問副署長我們嘗試加要注意因為說實在詐騙集團當然還會用啦"},{"start":4223.249,"end":4234.818,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員接著會後我們再給你一個更詳細的資料謝謝王美惠 張偉張偉剛才提到的那些也請會後把資料提供給張偉接下來我們請黃婕委員發言好 謝主席我們先請內政部次長請次長委員好"},{"start":4249.605,"end":4267.663,"text":"好 次長好在今天這個主題之前我先請教一下因為其實前兩天有一個這個宇宙彌勒黃教的事情我不知道次長有沒有關注到那當然裡面的爭議非常多那我看到這兩個主要的爭議是一個有教徒說因為他追隨這個教長"},{"start":4269.965,"end":4287.4,"text":"教主長達15年那但是他逼迫這個信徒要不斷買非常昂貴的法器那他現在想要離開但是沒有辦法取回被放在這個寺廟中的自己的祖先的牌位那這個是目前看到的一個事件那當然另外比較爭議比較大的就是說他們這個"},{"start":4290.282,"end":4313.258,"text":"教主的這個群組裡面有一個詛咒的群組就是詛咒很多藍綠的政治人物各黨派的都有那在裡面說要用意念來攻擊這一些藍綠的政治人物那其實當時內政部看到這個訊息也有說會進行調查所以我想要請教的是目前有沒有任何調查的進度那當然我覺得宗教自由是一定要尊重的"},{"start":4313.958,"end":4327.287,"text":"這個大家都有信仰各式宗教的自由但是如果裡面有涉及一些詐欺或者是不法的部分這個內政部就應該要進入來調查並且協助這一些已經明顯有受害的教徒"},{"start":4328.254,"end":4343.85,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想先簡單說明第一個它這個宗教團體我們在第一時間已經請我們宗理師都去現場去了解那有關剛談到群組的部分那我這邊所理解的是它確實在那個群組裡面有一些行為"},{"start":4345.652,"end":4359.453,"text":"那我想這個行為的部分如果他只要涉及不法涉及詐欺我們這邊都會有第一個已經去訪查了那接下來我們都會做搜查那這個不光只是總理師我們包括警政署其實都已經在這個案子都已經"},{"start":4360.066,"end":4379.496,"text":"已經有把他相關的一些具體事證都來做整理那一旦查完之後我們就會移送給相關的檢調機關來做一個偵辦我先簡單跟委員做個說明好 謝謝次長的說明我就希望說這個案件不要再有一些教徒有受害的情勢發生好 那進入今天的重點我們先請金管會的銀行局副局長是不是在現場"},{"start":4381.365,"end":4391.696,"text":"好那今天要討論這個普發一萬的防詐狀況那我想要藉此來說來瞭解一個案件就是前幾天的這個全支付的案件因為其實這種詐騙的樣態都差不多啦網路的詐騙他通常就是給你一些假的網址給你一些假的連結讓你點進去"},{"start":4400.245,"end":4420.105,"text":"那很常是冒用我們政府網站的一些連結然後騙你點進去之後就把你的個資拿走了那我想要問的是前兩天的這個全支付的狀況因為全支付大家知道說其實是全台灣用戶量第三名然後他們的交易量也是全台灣第一名的電子支付的平台"},{"start":4420.746,"end":4443.099,"text":"但是在這個全支付的狀況前兩天有發生一個案件就是說有民眾連續被倒刷20筆交易那總金額損失是台幣8萬元然後很多用戶都很恐慌也紛紛表示說他們有類似的情勢發生那金管會是說17號之前要他們交報告我不知道現在調查的結果如何"},{"start":4446.239,"end":4467.797,"text":"麥克風跟委員報告全支付在這個事件發生的時候有馬上跟我們通報重大偶發那這個報告他是17號才要過來那所以目前目前我們還沒有收到這個報告那這一個網站他是用這個釣魚信件還有這個其他的簡訊來誤導民眾去這個到其他的網站把這個資料輸進去"},{"start":4473.995,"end":4494.187,"text":"那所以不是全支付本身它的網站或者是它的APP有被攻擊的這個現象所造成的好 謝謝我們金管會的說明喔那我在這邊要講的是這個看起來比較像是就是一種狀況攻擊嘛那我們是不是先請速發布的王司長是不是在現場"},{"start":4495.396,"end":4497.997,"text":"我在這邊想要跟你了解的是像這種賬戶供給的行為樣態已經非常多我想問的是像這種資安你們有沒有一定的防護程度以及比較大的資安的問題到底要怎麼解決我在這邊跟你問兩個事情一個是就是其實有很多資安專家建議說現在這種用信用卡跟綁銀行賬戶比起來"},{"start":4516.583,"end":4523.408,"text":"綁信用卡是相對安全的因為可以比較有追溯的管道並且他的追討帳戶追討款項的機制比較明確那這個是不是你們會建議說大家與其綁你的銀行帳戶不如綁信用卡這是第一個問題第二個問題是OTP就是One Time Password"},{"start":4537.459,"end":4551.468,"text":"這樣的方式已經被很多資安專家說已經很不安全了可是現在台灣多數的銀行多數的網站多數的電子支付都還是用ATP的方式在用例如簡訊驗證給你一個驗證碼然後你就輸入但是像我剛剛說的狀況攻擊很常就是利用這樣的漏洞讓你中間先你有大量的帳密然後你再用想辦法去去釣魚"},{"start":4562.535,"end":4567.877,"text":"那變成說OTP非常的不安全那你也知道說現在網路全世界都在就是更新用passkey的方式然後用加入這個FIDO的組織所以我想要問的是速發部有沒有建議說我們可以有更多的銀行更多的電子支付的網站可以加入FIDO的這個系統讓大家使用passkey的方式來取代OTP以上兩個問題"},{"start":4589.824,"end":4605.556,"text":"好謝謝委員提問那針對第一個是不是信用卡或是說綁帳戶這個部分的話可能我這邊沒辦法回答沒辦法回答金融這邊的話可能比較可是這個是資安問題啊金管會那邊可能比較清楚那針對簡訊的部分的話第一個這個是數位資安問題好沒關係那是不是請金管會回答請告訴我們綁信用卡跟綁銀行的帳戶哪一個比較安全你們可以做到哪樣的防護"},{"start":4620.599,"end":4649.276,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在意的是業者的責任不管是綁信用卡還是綁帳戶那如果是非這個我現在就是在跟你討論技術上如何讓民眾可以自主的去預防嘛什麼叫做這個你們在乎的是業者的責任不管怎麼樣業者都有責任啊問題是說我們要如何輔導民眾然後輔導銀行讓大家用最安全的方式來防護自己的帳號不要被盜嘛"},{"start":4654.68,"end":4667.789,"text":"阿現在很多資安專家就已經講說技術上其實信用卡比較有他們有一些認證並且有追溯的管道並且像這些MasterCard他們在世界上都已經加入FIDO組織啦我覺得你們完全沒有做功課也沒有任何的針對這種資安防護的研究耶所以你知道什麼是FIDO嗎"},{"start":4678.989,"end":4707.715,"text":"我知道我知道對嘛所以那現在是不是大家都已經在講說OTP已經沒有很已經不安全了那是不是大家來可以嘗試使用passkey你們有什麼建議是跟我一樣報告如果是那個就是用那個FIDO的部分那現在其實台灣已經有solution就是說在至少在內政部這邊他自然評證他是有FIDO的機制的那這個部分的話其實在銀行這邊如果他用這樣子的機制的話在內政部這邊應該也是"},{"start":4708.59,"end":4720.576,"text":"不好意思 應該是市長這邊我想跟委員報告我想我們自然能評證就是用FIDO的我們也一直在推廣說包括銀行業者來協助是不是來盡量可以多運用像我們自然能評證的模式"},{"start":4720.984,"end":4738.76,"text":"那我想這個部分也包括金管會還有速發部我想我們都可以來共同研究那我想是不是在會後我們有研究好 這個麻煩次長因為看起來我們金管會看起來速發部都沒有進一步的研究也沒有任何進一步的建議其實我蠻失望的那這個拜託我們內政部次長"},{"start":4743.104,"end":4768.726,"text":"好 這個我們幾個部會來共同來研究 好不好好 這個要更快呀因為現在 拜託 這個詐騙集團的詐數是與時俱進 每天日新月異的結果我們防範的手段這麼慢然後又跟不上世界的腳步那到底要怎麼防詐這個我們是不是就揮霍我們幾個部會我們會來共同來做研究好 這個拜託你們我想資安很重要啦很重要啊 現在就是大家就是在打資安戰嘛"},{"start":4769.994,"end":4779.461,"text":"好這個拜託次長內政部一定要加油好嗎謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請張宏祿委員發言我請內政部然後還有財政部跟金管會"},{"start":4802.021,"end":4818.648,"text":"請以上委員好我先請問財政部像這次普發一萬塊我們也知道有好幾種方法可以去領這個一萬塊"},{"start":4821.755,"end":4831.903,"text":"可是我一直覺得有很多在比較鄉村的其實他們常常去往來的都是農會對不對你都不回答我那有沒有考慮下一次如果有這種的或是把農會考慮進去"},{"start":4850.314,"end":4871.207,"text":"是 報告委員因為這次普發的就陳如委員所提的這個管道很多那就是說不然你就回答我要不要時間有限不要做文章如果說是像登記入帳的部分這些金融機構其實都有在裡面我的意思就很多委員也有講你可以去郵局直接理做什麼"},{"start":4871.567,"end":4897.699,"text":"有沒有把農會考慮進去一句話就好了你跟我做那麼多文章所以現在領先的部分的話是可以到郵局農會的部分可能要就是去看說你如果沒有辦法決定你也可以跟我講帶回去研究就好啦你這邊講這麼多你浪費我那麼多時間我們下次如果有機會我們再研議看看"},{"start":4899.08,"end":4923.091,"text":"對嘛你這樣子其實是浪費我的時間啊你這樣子講那麼多對不對為什麼這樣很多的鄉下的人他其實都在農會啦你就直接去農會領我覺得這是一個很方便的一件事情我覺得你們要去考慮那再來我想請問一下像"},{"start":4928.246,"end":4939.423,"text":"如果一夜市網路的詐騙如果人家去報案了那他用信用卡付錢可不可以停止付款這財政部跟金管會你們兩個"},{"start":4946.722,"end":4966.919,"text":"跟委員報告如果是用信用卡不是當事人消費的他可以跟發卡銀行申請這個不是啊當然是當事人消費啊他已經拿到銀行的報案三連單了他發現這個就是網路詐騙的已經拿到了銀行的報案三連單去到銀行可不可以要求他指付"},{"start":4969.341,"end":4987.139,"text":"跟委員講信用卡沒有指付只有爭議賬款的處理對啦 可不可以處理啦可以處理可以處理但是錢就是如果他已經輸入他的重要的這個ID譬如說OTP這我都知道這都知道啦他就已經完成程序了啦對好"},{"start":4988.53,"end":5002.495,"text":"我知道你們要講沒有辦法嘛對不對因為你們說爭議款啦這是國際信用卡的組織的認定的交易啦對不對你們是這樣講嘛那再來我們的詐欺犯罪妨害維治條例第八條可能你們也不知道我直接念給你們聽金融機構對於存款帳戶電子支付帳戶及信用卡等等的"},{"start":5016.192,"end":5038.242,"text":"應盡善良管理人之注意義務對疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之異常存款帳戶等等等等他必須暫停全部或部分交易功能管控信用卡及暫停信用卡帳戶交易功能拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等管控措施這是台灣的法令"},{"start":5039.332,"end":5062.721,"text":"那你們要遵守國際法律還是為了打詐要優先遵守台灣的法律請你們回答各位報告我們一定是先遵守我們自己國家的法律那我剛唸給你聽的詐欺犯罪妨礙危害防治法第八條就要求你們管控帳戶了那你剛剛給我的回答是尊重這個國際信用卡組織用爭議款去處理"},{"start":5067.593,"end":5096.776,"text":"來 次長你們的警察都已經八萬確定了喔他們銀行不處理喔那個請教一下我們檢證署是不是說明一下實務上這種有信用卡之後不是啊你們就回答我啦你們有這樣子啦啊他們不處理啊我就有實際的案例啦那你們怎麼看法你們一天到晚在講打詐啊啊你們跨部會協調他們都第一個我們那個打詐辦公室裡面大概都會把這些議題拿來做一個看如何去精進"},{"start":5097.56,"end":5104.426,"text":"那這個部分打在辦公室也會包括我們警政署刑事警察局那我想還有包括警管會那是不是請我們同事說明一下好"},{"start":5107.344,"end":5131.178,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有關相關跨部會的協調在行政會的打炸指揮中心我們都會把跨部會我們在偵查犯罪上所發現的問題沒辦法協調的我們會透過打炸指揮中心來做定期的協調我現在舉這個很多民眾反映你們多久要處理"},{"start":5134.285,"end":5151.671,"text":"我們下一次會議就把這個議題提到打炸指揮中心來做責任的報告所以你們還沒有發現過這個問題下次才要提這個問題我都接到好幾次的反應了你們都沒有你們都沒有發現過這個也都沒有跟金管會財政部討論過"},{"start":5153.868,"end":5179.623,"text":"官員報告這個其實這一類的案件我們早就有提供相關的建議那因為剛剛金管會他們有他們的想法跟做法所以我們才必須提在這個西蛙窗方面再金管會剛剛已經講了他優先遵從台灣的法令我再做一次詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第八條台灣的法令規定的他剛剛也講了"},{"start":5183.086,"end":5211.84,"text":"就是優先尊重台灣的法令當然跟委員報告我們把這個問題在我覺得這個問題很多的民眾發生了這個問題政府一天到晚在講打詐我們有台灣的法令沒有優先執行然後去說國際的信用卡組織的爭議狂我覺得這個是非常可以去研議去處理的我覺得你們這樣講"},{"start":5213.223,"end":5233.352,"text":"三個月內你們應該要給我們內政委員會所有委員一份你們處理的怎麼樣這是對全國不是對我啦不然內政部打詐你們警察那邊三連單都開了都已經確定都是了人家都不理你們你們警察在幹什麼我覺得"},{"start":5236.533,"end":5253.13,"text":"也要找回警察的尊嚴也要讓台灣的民眾知道政府有在做事台灣的法令不遵循這樣子講句難聽一點的你們不是保護民眾你們是站在銀行端你們站在資本家那邊"},{"start":5254.741,"end":5270.567,"text":"金管會跟財政部是不是這樣各位報告我們就是因為發生這個問題所以把這個問題提到跨部會上這個程序問題你不用教我啦我也很清楚啦我最後問一下那個財政部跟金管會你們剛剛也有說優先遵循台灣的法令對不對是嘛所以你們趕快處理"},{"start":5283.208,"end":5305.326,"text":"這個問題如果不處理動會越來越大大家都知道台灣有這個漏洞反正就不用怕我就一夜市的廣告我就能騙多久就趕快繼續騙你們可不可以馬上處理三個月內跟內政部這些處理我們會盡快跟內政部來討論好 謝謝謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":5319.059,"end":5328.004,"text":"是主席有請警政署還有移民署警政署移民署兩位副署長委員好"},{"start":5337.081,"end":5362.089,"text":"想要請教兩位這幾年我們看到的就是外籍移工常常因為不懂法規被詐騙集團利用變成車手或者人頭賬戶那其實已經成為一種就是犯罪集團的代理化的一個現象就是犯罪者躲在"},{"start":5362.697,"end":5387.83,"text":"幕後利用移工當替代的犯罪所以想要請教一下我們警政署這樣的歧視有沒有列為情資監控的重點這一年偵探的監訴還有上游招募者到案的比例起訴和定罪率有多少有數據嗎"},{"start":5390.619,"end":5399.363,"text":"跟委員報告我們外籍移工包括新住民這一塊其實他目前被詐騙的這個狀況謹慎署件數都有統計那當然他這個數據我今天沒帶來是不是容我會後再提供給委員"},{"start":5411.567,"end":5439.51,"text":"那為了避免這些移工或者是新住民或者甚至是持這個觀光簽證來到台灣的這些外籍人士他們被淪為詐騙集團的這些車手所以我們在相關的宣導相關的宣導活動部分大概都有做了相關的宣導那移工的部分我們還結合移工的管理者也就是這個工廠的負責人"},{"start":5442.332,"end":5447.157,"text":"這透過跟勞動部來配合然後透過這個管道再去做宣導的一個加強"},{"start":5448.34,"end":5475.257,"text":"所以我想這個相關的情資的一個掌握我們是都有掌握的那至於有偵破的案件確實有那因為這些數據比較細部是不是容我會後再提供給委員做參考以上你講的這些我們都知道我們要的是具體說有效的因為你講的再來就是針對我們的賬戶的部分如果就是說"},{"start":5476.738,"end":5479.841,"text":"我要問你的是移工他們離境或者通報失聯他們的名下的銀行帳戶是不是可以在合法的程序下可以立即列入就是警示或者停留的交易就像說很多就是在台中我們都看到免費的信卡還有一個攤位讓給他們還有離境的帳戶的收購"},{"start":5503.94,"end":5508.761,"text":"然後非法的這個匯款的點這樣子的管道這一年來你們有整合稽查結果是如何是不是已經跟銀行建立好就是離境帳戶的"},{"start":5520.987,"end":5550.196,"text":"疫警機制或者高風險的交易及時通報我們要的是你們的工作的有效的工作的點你講那些什麼什麼人什麼人我們比你清楚但是不用再講那個好不好報告委員這個部分比較細節一點我是不是請刑事局來做個答案可以謝謝委員的指教那就是有關外籍移工的部分就涉及到兩個一個就是電話"},{"start":5551.318,"end":5567.711,"text":"一個就是帳戶那就是人離境了之後他的原來的手機還有他的帳戶都還在使用這個我們已經有跟打炸指揮中心反映這個問題那現在都還在跨部會的協調當中那我們同時也跟移民署"},{"start":5568.612,"end":5581.045,"text":"做一個借接因為這些人可能提領之後他馬上就離境所以我們會盡快的找出辦法就是在他還沒離境之前就能夠把這些外籍的車手能夠逮捕"},{"start":5582.621,"end":5590.668,"text":"你們都請大家都跨部會合作但是你們跨的部會不知道跨到哪裡去因為離境的帳戶還是被詐騙繼續用所以還有感覺就是說我們政府沒有跨部會的去處理才會造成就是現在的就跟自己政府在養這些人頭帳戶"},{"start":5606.22,"end":5610.461,"text":"這樣子是合理的嗎另外就是說我們是要跨部會今天有各部會都來所以目前我們警政署說只是跟移民署跟其他我們金管會銀行電信業者就是可疑的賬戶異常有沒有真正做到就是及時的"},{"start":5629.085,"end":5633.026,"text":"凍結處理有沒有說平均多少還有現在AI就是防炸的模型有沒有針對外籍的就是外語的社團有跨境金流的特徵去調查我們要的是你們真正的執行的效率還有方法不只說我們在用我們在用沒有一個具體的"},{"start":5655.58,"end":5667.936,"text":"是那這部分我們會後再把我們警政署在有關打擊就是在偵辦這個外籍移工還有外籍車手的相關的數據跟做法來在會後再提供給委員來做參考"},{"start":5670.234,"end":5675.496,"text":"還有像在臉書啊LINE啊還有就是抖音上面有很多就是外語的宣傳廣告這些的你們有去查嗎有沒有說就是熱區的名單就像說移工的注射或者中間公司傳遞的市場周邊有沒有固定的聯合的稽查這個部分"},{"start":5697.964,"end":5707.149,"text":"因為不只是我們提出來還有很多你看這些雖然是說你們看不懂但是都是因為大家都利用這樣子來去做這件事情普遍你們怎麼去查有沒有這部分第一個就是宣導當然跟這些外籍的仲介公司我在申辦的時候我們也會來加強來宣導那稽查的部分會結合移民署都有在各個縣市警察局都有在稽查"},{"start":5729.209,"end":5732.17,"text":"但是效果你們稽查的點還有這個樣子的效果在哪裡因為我們看到的就是像我們移民署這邊就是也面對詐騙集團就是假冒我們的官方散布一些假消息移民署有沒有在一時之間把所有的是多國語言"},{"start":5753.898,"end":5757.961,"text":"來去做就是宣傳讓這些就是說在台灣的外籍人士他們怎麼樣去得到這樣的信息因為大家都講說都是外籍人變成車手變成詐騙集團的一個犯罪的"},{"start":5775.031,"end":5788.003,"text":"的對象或者是變成他們的犯罪的手法但是我們我們移民署跟警政署有沒有跨部會這樣子把多國的議員來去做宣傳讓大家更知道呢有嗎跟委員報告有關這部分我們跟警政署包含防詐騙這邊都有密切合作他其實是有一個線上的"},{"start":5801.537,"end":5826.309,"text":"線上他會有個三方通話多餘的一個諮詢服務在針對防詐的部分那另外我們在那個所謂的外國人在台人士的生活諮詢熱線這部分也都有提供相關多餘的這些服務另外在對於說這些移工一站式的服務的部分的話我們也都跟勞動部這邊有來結合針對他在入境的部分也會加強在這上面防詐的宣導還有其他的管道謝謝"},{"start":5827.403,"end":5848.057,"text":"好我們是希望的是抓到源頭就是外籍籍工外籍人士在台灣被利用我們要如何就是要不是人的問題是制度跟機制的問題所以我們希望就是說這件事情就是說我們在入國的時候我們要如何來去做一個"},{"start":5856.112,"end":5856.953,"text":"宣傳還有輔導這個部分因為我們都是用中文的他們聽不懂又看不懂所以我們希望是針對各種語言很多就是"},{"start":5870.495,"end":5877.12,"text":"回去了就把帳戶把自己的SIM卡就會變成這樣子的去販賣所以這樣子的普遍所以才會導致現在就是很多就是利用這樣子來去做一個詐騙集團我很多次了我很多次都有要求還有就是拜託"},{"start":5891.131,"end":5897.695,"text":"我們警政署跟移民署要如何跨部會要用一個防詐的一個外籍人士的團隊因為現在詐騙集團都去利用外籍人士"},{"start":5907.834,"end":5935.479,"text":"來去詐騙我們在台灣的人但是呢我們警政署跟移民署不懂得去應用現有這些人移民署每年都是栽培人警政署也是一個每年都栽培新住民有各種語言但是呢我們都沒有應用來去真正的去防詐所以最後我要提醒光是十月份因為很多都在說是"},{"start":5937.239,"end":5948.225,"text":"移工最多就是污名化但是關於10月份一個月我們本國籍涉炸的人數已經超過3000人也超過移工的人數但是新聞裡面都標題都說常常下標題就是說"},{"start":5957.182,"end":5960.104,"text":"逃逸移工在犯罪在詐欺所以我請兩位就是兩個單位在政府的統計宣傳上有沒有避免這樣的就是族群的污名化能不能就是同步推動不要這樣子的標籤化的防詐的交易"},{"start":5978.813,"end":5981.737,"text":"請大家知道說這個是不是族群的問題這個是制度的問題所以我們希望保護的所有在台灣生活工作努力的人不分國籍也不分你我我們都大家都是被利用所以希望"},{"start":5997.556,"end":6004.661,"text":"兩位就是我們兩個署還有其他可以共同跨部會跟今天的主題一樣跨部會如何就是有一個具體的計畫防詐還有怎麼消除讓外籍人士在台灣成為詐騙的車手可以嗎在一個月內提出一個具體的OK"},{"start":6024.065,"end":6035.573,"text":"可以好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝麥玉珍委員確實有一些議題確實需要跨部會來共同來討論那接下來我們請徐玉珍委員發言謝謝主席我們請內政部吳次長跟警政署李副署長請吳次長還有李副署長"},{"start":6054.399,"end":6075.352,"text":"市長好以及我們的副市長好我想這一次我們普發現金一萬塊我們的原意是要還稅於民也讓全民共享經濟的一個成果但是呢這份善意現在卻變成這個詐騙集團的這個新手法所以政府一再的高喊要全民市長"},{"start":6076.392,"end":6085.617,"text":"那內政部的報告我剛看了一下也是有自誇我們在宣導影片跟曝光的這個圖卡大概高達4597萬次請問一下這是觸及人數還是一直不斷的重複曝光"},{"start":6093.673,"end":6122.661,"text":"這是我們重複播放的一個次數就是重複播放所以這個4597次真正看到的有多少人看到的有多少次其實我們也沒有也沒有做一個這樣的一個數據嗎因為現在這樣的一個播放的方式我們並沒有去統計所謂點閱或觸及的所以變成說你們也不會針對長者或是偏鄉的一個民眾的一些高風險群去做"},{"start":6123.594,"end":6147.835,"text":"這個後撤或者一些滿意圖的調查是嗎跟我們報告我們的宣導呢本來就採分眾分齡的方式在做宣導那請問有量化嗎量化就這個宣導量化的部分這個資料是比較細微的我們可能要再統計一下但是我們是觀測整個族群對所以表示目前你們有量化嗎你不曉得說到底我們這樣子的一些"},{"start":6148.608,"end":6175.627,"text":"廣告試詐的廣告下去之後到底有什麼樣的成效我們現在看到都是一些數字那我們做了什麼我們做了什麼做了什麼但是實際上的成效是什麼目前警政署這邊是沒有任何的報告嗎根本報告我們就是看整個詐欺犯罪他大幅的他有沒有下降那剛剛也有委員問到我們目前在案件的部分是下降了大概三成然後在這個"},{"start":6177.105,"end":6194.347,"text":"財損的部分這個是真的有下降還是說沒有統計到這當然有下降我覺得這個部分我們必須要去了解清楚尤其是像我們剛剛講了這麼多的市詐的一個宣傳作為那目前為止請問一下知道說哪一種市詐的這個作為方式最有效"},{"start":6196.096,"end":6224.075,"text":"市場的部分剛剛我們有提了各種方式市長在報告的時候跟我們報告其實每一個管道都有它特定的受造目前在看的話電視是一個比較有效的方式因為電視成本高所以你們真正投注在電視的經費大概佔多少百分比大概佔多少目前我們在電視的部分投入的預算大概是1.5億每一年"},{"start":6224.867,"end":6226.792,"text":"一年1.5億那這一次針對這一次的這個呢那個我們的這個普發現金的房價有沒有特別在因為其實我們在"},{"start":6233.257,"end":6239.143,"text":"我們的這次的這個普發現金的特別條例裡面你們也有編列媒體宣傳的費用我們也都沒有刪對 所以這個部分應該是針對普發現金的部分應該有特別的媒體宣傳的費用才對有 我們這次在電視媒體的部分大概有特別拍了一支影片在電視的部分拍影片網路大概是16支拍影片跟"},{"start":6256.278,"end":6269.883,"text":"最後我剛講的就是他的KPI是什麼我覺得警政署必須要去量化這樣的一個數據出來你才能夠知道未來我要用什麼樣的宣傳方式才是最有效的否則的話我們只是把錢撒出去做了一些影片做了一些廣告到底"},{"start":6270.345,"end":6289.513,"text":"有沒有針對被詐騙的人有真的幫助跟感受尤其是像我們知道最近有很多的釣魚簡訊告訴你說你連結到哪個網站所以你可以事實上造成很多的這樣子的人被詐騙那請問一下我們這個署理或是我們內政部有沒有針對簡訊這個部分來投放呢"},{"start":6294.586,"end":6308.322,"text":"目前我們對於這樣的詐騙簡訊的處理方式如果是這個電話簡訊的部分我們大概都拜託這個NCC在做進一步的處理那NCC有嗎"},{"start":6310.692,"end":6333.729,"text":"他今天有代表另外如果是網路的部分因為我們目前看到其實都是釣魚網站的簡訊我們自己政府並沒有這樣的一個簡訊那我要表達就是說如果我們自己有簡訊先通知我們所有的這個民眾大家他看到詐騙的時候他就會有所警惕了因為你已經先看到正確的嘛那看到詐騙你就會有所警惕"},{"start":6334.429,"end":6338.171,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是也要考慮一下未來針對這樣的一個簡訊通知我們的全民我覺得這是最快也最有效的一個方式而且可以普及到全民那當然你說分眾分眾那個我不反對那也是可以另外再做但是我覺得簡訊這一塊事實上也可以讓一些尤其一些年紀比較長的或是一些偏鄉的他事實上還是接得到簡訊"},{"start":6356.741,"end":6383.785,"text":"他還是可以看得到那另外針對這個部分就是我們在165的這個打造儀表板普發現金有一個防詐專區那剛剛次長也特別提到了就是說我們普發現金的成果但是我發覺這是我在10月30號所揭露下來的一個普發現金的成果請次長看一下跟你剛剛報告到10月11月10號的成果一模一樣數字都沒有改"},{"start":6384.517,"end":6395,"text":"那請問到底是這十來天都沒有發生這樣子的這個被詐騙被這個平台的通報下架平台廣告或者是停權的還是說你們資料沒有更新"},{"start":6405.253,"end":6426.181,"text":"這邊向委員報告這個因為這個我們每週都會請各縣市回報我們這個移除下架件數那這邊這樣已經不只一週啊已經大概快兩週了那我們這邊其實最新統計的話是下架56件還是沒有變那社群帳號的部分目前的話我們最新統計就從上禮拜五這邊統計的話是"},{"start":6428.562,"end":6444.962,"text":"60個帳號好那你看看喔你們的報告是自本年9月12號起到11月10號值是這個數字喔這個涉嫌詐欺的帳號是50個對吧所以說表示你們在給我們內政委員會的報告裡就是造假啦"},{"start":6446.257,"end":6471.839,"text":"那為什麼沒有 為什麼沒有更新既然你做這樣的更新不是要讓大家知道成果嗎統計的時間有一個落差我想這個我們再更新就好了不是 你現在11月10號對 我的意思是說由小見大連這個地方你們都做這樣子沒有馬上更新到沒有馬上更新到代表說其他要做詐騙的防治或是試詐一定都還有很多的地方需要改進的"},{"start":6473.201,"end":6489.046,"text":"我想這個我來請警政署來要更新就是詐騙其實大家都非常痛恨的而且現在有深受其害那我覺得我們內政部真的一定要用這樣的一個方式來去處理好嗎那最後再一個問題請教金管會的王允忠副局長那次長您可以次長沒關係您可以請回"},{"start":6492.049,"end":6508.568,"text":"委員是不是容我補充一下剛剛委員特別垂行到我們謹慎署有沒有透過簡訊的方式來進行防詐剛剛業務單位提供來了我們今年大概花了1.2億通的簡訊的防詐那表示我們都沒有詐騙集團厲害為什麼"},{"start":6509.068,"end":6515.093,"text":"我們的簡訊防詐的效果好像沒有詐騙極端的效果這個我覺得之後可能要評估一下啦到底問題出在哪我們會再做進階的一個評估時間我問一下這個金管會的副局長就是針對這個太子集團的這個洗錢超過45億這個事情那其實我們一般啦到那個現在只要你去銀行領個錢幾十萬大概就會被銀行"},{"start":6536.961,"end":6560.261,"text":"問這是不是你你自己本人要你有沒有被詐騙大概要程序非常的繁複即使我領我自己戶頭的錢但是為什麼這個太子集團啊他這樣子動輒就是幾十億幾這個幾億的都沒有關係那是銀行在睡覺嗎尤其是這一次是金管會說你們已經通報52次的那為什麼52次來都沒有做精檢跟委員報告"},{"start":6563.86,"end":6573.767,"text":"那銀行是在一定的金額的通報50萬以上他就會通報這個調查局那另外如果發現有異常樣態那這樣子沒有異常嗎就是這幾年來有45億的詐騙在台灣洗錢這樣沒有異常你們也通報52次了不是嗎對那52次你們都沒有啟動經檢嗎"},{"start":6585.034,"end":6609.338,"text":"中間當然是會有一些精檢啦有嗎 你這邊看起來是沒有做精檢不是針對這個專案不是針對這個專案去做精檢表示說你們都已經通報52次了結果也沒做精檢然後結果現在是美國一通知你們就馬上下去做精檢所以到底現在我們是怎樣是美國說我們才會做那我們自己的國家主權在哪裡那還有我們的這個金管會的職責到底在哪裡"},{"start":6610.851,"end":6633.442,"text":"是跟委員報告因為他這個集團他的公司很多所以每一個關聯戶都不太一樣所以就比較難去歸戶來做一個檢查比較難所以就不做是嗎我們做的是一般的精檢但是沒有做的是針對這一個案件經過這一次你們覺得你們做的一般精檢有用嗎"},{"start":6634.93,"end":6654.986,"text":"我們至少可以回頭去檢視一下我們銀行做的有沒有那你知道這樣已經造成多少人被詐騙嗎台灣已經變成一個詐騙集團的洗錢天堂那這樣子我們還說我們回過頭去看看有沒有什麼問題那我覺得金管會作為這樣子的一個主管金管是非常失職的非常沒有擔當"},{"start":6655.97,"end":6675.173,"text":"你現在把它推給銀行事實上銀行通報你說合法合規但是呢事實上我們就是被詐騙而且還是被美國發現通知我們的所以這到底是什麼樣的問題而且我覺得這個我們的這個金管會的這個實質的失能已經造成我們台灣這個詐騙集團的橫行洗錢的橫行這個絕對不是這麼簡單說我們之後檢討一下那請問金管會這邊你們有沒有全力要求銀行啟動更嚴格的加強"},{"start":6684.471,"end":6695.404,"text":"禁止審查的EDD或者是主動限制相關帳戶的交易額度跟委員報告事實上現在一直都這麼做的但是還是被詐騙了45億在台灣那所以到底做的是"},{"start":6702.739,"end":6729.445,"text":"還不到位還是說我們的法律還不夠嚴謹那個451不是被詐騙是他境外匯進來的錢然後他拿去買的對啊那這些錢是什麼是詐騙而來的錢吧這些錢是怎麼樣的因為是調查局他們在司法檢調機關在調查的總之這一件事情我覺得金管會真的要好好的去檢討到底要怎麼樣來去防範這樣的事情而不是說這種雲淡風輕的都不關你們的事"},{"start":6732.674,"end":6741.901,"text":"可以嗎是好我們會檢討是不是也針對這個部分你們之後要怎麼做是不是一個月之內給我一個報告好嗎是好謝謝好謝謝徐一貞委員下一位我們請黃建斌召委質詢好謝謝主席主席我們有請內政部吳次長檢證署理副署長事務發布王司長有請"},{"start":6765.025,"end":6790.142,"text":"三位好相信各位都很清楚為什麼本席今天會拍今天的專報我從普發現今正式上路以來有太多的詐騙的訊息跟網站在坊間流傳每天幾乎都有新聞發生都有新聞報導說民眾被詐騙的案例因此非常有必要邀請各部會來到立法院跟全國國人來說明清楚機關的防詐的作為"},{"start":6791.082,"end":6814.479,"text":"那本期在這邊也要特別責成我們警政署還有抒發部由於目前許多詐騙的訊息都是透過假網站的這個詐騙連結因此接獲情資跟通報一定要在最短的時間內封鎖相關的網站以及通知社群網站業者下架詐騙的訊息越短的時間阻斷我們詐騙管道就越能夠減少"},{"start":6819.366,"end":6834.636,"text":"民眾被詐騙的機率我想接下來我們請內政部長跟警政署副市長留下來本席有接下來要請教兩位有關於基層員警的權益的問題繼續跟各位討論"},{"start":6839.631,"end":6862.827,"text":"首先我想要請教一下吳次長你還記得我們十月份十月中旬的時候本席在內政委員會在這邊也當面質詢我們這個劉部長跟部長爭取說關於警消移民空勤的這個聖夜圍牢津貼必須要納入值班備勤人員以及加班費的餘數必須要能夠並計確保基層的權益請問我們現在目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":6867.287,"end":6876.009,"text":"那委員我是不是請警政署把處理情形來跟您說明時間暫停跟委員報告目前委員所提的這個建議那我的理解是"},{"start":6892.503,"end":6918.592,"text":"警政署已經通知各直轄市縣市警察局針對這一個建議那麼也就是深夜加班會這個部分大概需要多少經費那正在匯集這個相關的資料那進一步的會議可能近日會近日內會再召開然後做出最後的一個決定我們安黨是我們開始要去試因為"},{"start":6922.639,"end":6942.542,"text":"因為這個應該這樣講我們人事是必須先了解所有的經費大概需要多少錢然後再跟提報部再轉報院編了這個相關的預算然後才有辦法再進行有關這個原有的深夜加班會以外在那個"},{"start":6943.539,"end":6971.222,"text":"未出派出所的這個部分也在 才會再做補花我覺得這個不穩喔 可麻煩我們 可能董事要趕快因為本市上次質詢完之後非常多這個基層的經銷這邊的回應是非常好他說他們非常贊同這些這個事他說這是池袋的公道因為這裡改善部也要責任相關單位盡快來推動讓這些 因為接下來基層真的要等很久了基層真的要等很久那為什麼 因為接下來本市就問到這一塊就是說"},{"start":6973.691,"end":6982.813,"text":"我記得之前也有委員質詢過我們署長我們現在的基層發現一個很大的問題就是說到今年3月底我們全國偵查組的預估缺額達到649人缺額率高達將近14%這個對基層打擊犯罪的人力還有我國的資產的穩定是一個非常嚴重的警訊"},{"start":6999.677,"end":7026.683,"text":"特別是現在刑事警察也負擔非常重的這個詐騙的案件那當時我們署長也承諾說會提出四大的進進方案嘛並且在三個月內提出提升那個警情人員刑事家籍的研議方案不過從署長當時大眼到盡頭也過半年我們到現在還沒有看到這個警情人員的刑事家籍的方案那媒體報導說很多基層的這些刑事警察都在抱怨"},{"start":7027.182,"end":7056.896,"text":"你除了待遇跟你的工作量不成正比外公文多然後評比多也是造成我們刑事人力荒的這個阻暈如果說沒有辦法有效的解決問題這個會嚴重打擊刑警們的士氣也會造成新進員警不願意投入刑警的這個行列難以這個傳承刑事經驗如果持續惡化下去這對我們國內的治安這很大影響這部分我相信護書地方好護教地方好應該都很清楚這個部分是不是來回應一下"},{"start":7057.318,"end":7084.443,"text":"目前我們刑事加擠的研議的進度在哪邊跟委員來報告我們刑事加擠的部分他本來就配備有這個所謂的繁重次重還有單純這個加擠大概是在我的理解好像是在八千七千六千塊這樣的一個差距那委員剛剛所指導的我們其實警政署也發現"},{"start":7085.387,"end":7095.334,"text":"我們認為這個差距可以再把它加大一點也就是說繁重的是不是把它提高到1萬多塊然後這個比較次重的是不是維持在8000"},{"start":7096.64,"end":7116.254,"text":"比較單純的再維持在另外一個等級目前正朝著這樣的一個方式詢問各縣市警察局的意見然後來做是不是要做這樣的一個挑戰副書長我記得那時候四月份問的到現在都現在都十一月了好像要報檔了我了解 委員但是我們在紀審其實也在想說副書長就給我們答應了為什麼要報你 還沒看你的東西副書長你該請車進鄉是他們的欠缺"},{"start":7124.56,"end":7152.242,"text":"那個副局長 副局長應該很清楚吧現在刑事警察的短缺 副局長應該很清楚吧這個我是非常清楚啦對 或是因為工作越來越多 勤務越來越多他們會覺得說 我發現那個刑事荒各縣市都非常的嚴重這個要趕快來解決那個刑事警察人員他的勤務是特別如果未來這一塊沒有辦法補上的話那未來對整個 你不管是治安還包括我們要推動業務都會很大的影響"},{"start":7153.623,"end":7180.974,"text":"本身在這裡最好再次共調就是守護我們繼承軍警消人員的權利就是守護這個國家安全的最重要的根基那我們兩行政院不願意依法編列我們軍人加薪的部分然後也不願意依法編列這個警消人員的這個退休金的預算你最起碼對你限職的人員的部分你當時的承諾也應該趕快做到所以這邊是不是在11月"},{"start":7182.912,"end":7210.947,"text":"在以前我們請警政署這邊要承諾11月底以前我們提出過完整的這個刑事加節方案讓我們提升我們這個記者營養的這個士氣也可以提升他們營養的待遇可不可以跟委員報告 委員所講的這個部分我回去會跟要求署的單位來做配合啦我也會跟署長來做一個報告盡量在11月底啦好 感謝副署長相關的進度也會跟委員做報告感謝副署長 謝謝那謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":7234.353,"end":7259.737,"text":"請牛許廷委員發言謝謝主席 內政部財政部還有速發部有請請以上三位單位好 大家早安大家辛苦了這個普發一萬元我剛看書面報告被詐騙的災情還算可控嗎數量沒有很多嗎"},{"start":7261.179,"end":7290.238,"text":"跟委員報告 我剛剛的報告裡面其實目前都還可控還可控 這個請繼續加油那因為大家都 現在大家都很擔心啦因為這個題目在台灣上空也吵了蠻久的那當然就很多詐騙集團刺激而動那麼相對來講政府也做了很多措施特別花了很多時間去宣傳就是官方網站只有一個對不對 這是一個相對單純而且有效的這樣一個方式內政部在11月11號在臉書上說普發現金的官網只有一個"},{"start":7291.112,"end":7309.487,"text":"速發部今天的書面報告也講普發現金的官網只有一個那大家去看說這個所謂的官方網站其實基本上就是gov.tw嘛對不對這是基本上的一個簡單的認證模式嘛好那普發現金跟普發現金有關的官網真的只有10000.gov.tw這一個嘛"},{"start":7314.488,"end":7337.929,"text":"只有這個嗎這個我先簡單講跟委員報告網站越單純越好所以說我們希望讓所有的民眾就知道是只有這個單一網站對啊是這樣子所以到底是不是只有一個官方網站包委員就我們所知就是一個官方網站就你們所知是一個如果說那個什麼從網站裡面它有一個地方可以連結出去的話那個是另外一個網址但是"},{"start":7338.342,"end":7365.857,"text":"的確都是從我們這個網站出去的現在除了這個10000.gov.tw之外還有一個叫做pro.10000.gov.tw請問這是不是官方網站這也是官方網站對不對因為gov.tw嘛對不對那你們又宣稱說只有一個官方網站然後又有另外一個官方網站到底哪一個才是官方網站報告委員這個是從我們10000的那個網站可以連結出去的另外一個網址但是以民眾來講他只要記得10000.gov.tw這個就可以了"},{"start":7368.73,"end":7393.778,"text":"這個是財政部做的嘛來財政部是報告委員這一個是就是為了這個廣宣就是說在就是10000.gov.tw這個登記平台上路之前我要先告訴大家有10000.gov.tw這件事欸你們差不多得了是不要每一個部會都想要搞一個網站好不好既然是單一網站你就全部整合啦你們接下來有沒有要整合的打算"},{"start":7395.219,"end":7415.923,"text":"因為我善意提醒啦 因為你多一個你這後面等於都有gu.tw嘛我們在防詐的過程中 我們最擔心的就是弄的網站跟你很像啊 對不對然後各式各樣 然後導引就把你導到別的地方去嘛那你政府的開放的那個樣態越多它是不是可以模仿 可以盜用就等於破口就越多啦"},{"start":7416.443,"end":7443.25,"text":"那既然你們也都宣稱只有一個官方網站就應該有所整併了你即便要宣傳你也集中在你就一開始就集中在1萬.gov.tw你就宣傳宣傳完時間到了就開放不是也比較集中點閱率也比較高效果也比較好嗎這個性歧視恐怕不是一件好事你們想一下要不要趕快來做一下整理這第一個那藉著這樣子的一個問題啦因為後來我看了一下像以速發部來講啊就是說你們都會針對後綴式.tw網站做"},{"start":7445.151,"end":7459.73,"text":"定期的查核跟這個檢證的機制嘛如果發現他是詐騙集團你就會那個我跟你講跟一萬有關的網站這個雖然不是官方這個也算是官方網站我發現還有一個一萬-gov.tw"},{"start":7461.181,"end":7485.738,"text":"然後這個東西跟普發現金其實沒有關係因為它是叫萬事通它是一個可以連結到政府各個網站的一個導流嗎或者是入口的網站當然它這個網站目前為止沒有被錯殺啦但是我要提醒就是說這很複雜啦然後其實跟人民相關他們比較關心也比較關鍵關切的點是到底哪一個網站才是真正的官方嘛真正的認可嘛"},{"start":7486.639,"end":7502.044,"text":"還有第二個是除了我們透過這個後綴網址gov.tw之外這個怎麼能夠確認嗎這個我給政府做一個政策建議第一個除了我建議你把所有的普發現金就是單一窗口做一個統整避免詐騙集團有破口之外"},{"start":7502.584,"end":7529.213,"text":"第二個就是我們所有的官方網站除了是用網址的方式來辨認之外有沒有一些別的機制可以讓他有效有認證機制的概念比如說臉書啊我們的這個臉書粉專有藍勾勾嘛那你就認證藍勾勾嘛然後LINE裡面有盾牌綠色盾牌對不對那相對來講網站上面有沒有一些這樣的東西來速發部這需要你們有點創意啊有沒有什麼想法 報告委員第一個就是我們對外宣導就是做10000.gov.tw所以我剛才那個pro其實"},{"start":7531.814,"end":7555.091,"text":"當然剛剛委員有建議說把整合那個我們會整合但是現在其實民眾也是從那邊從我們的一萬這邊點出去才會到那個地方那至於說像這樣子有點像是這個我們普發一萬的這個網站我們每天我們自己都有自動機制在檢核這一類的就是類似這個普發網站這樣子的一個網址那如果說我們發現說它裡面內容是有疑似這個"},{"start":7556.102,"end":7567.311,"text":"這個詐騙我們就會給那個國務組這邊我知道你就直接把它蓋掉這個我都有看到我現在問題是現在各式各樣的政府官方網站裡面有沒有就有沒有什麼其他的認證機制除了看網址之外啊"},{"start":7568.699,"end":7590.147,"text":"有沒有要設計一下比如說防衛的圖騰或者是什麼樣的東西有沒有一些像這樣想法跟討論目前最簡單的它就是.govintw這樣子的一個網址的方式那另外一個就是如果說是傳輸的一個安全性的話我們都是要求每個機關的網站都是https這樣子至少在傳輸當中它的資料是加密的不會被人家接取走"},{"start":7590.834,"end":7613.748,"text":"我是建議你們做一下思考啦就是政府網站的認真機制啦這樣可以讓未來 因為這也不是只有這一件事嘛你未來有很多政令要做相關的一些宣導跟一些未來詐騙集團也會道高一尺 謀高一丈我是怕這些東西現有的東西他就已經很容易仿冒 很容易突破然後是容易騙人 因為網址這種東西是有些人也不見得看得清楚嘛我覺得是破口"},{"start":7614.099,"end":7622.443,"text":"所以要用一些多重的方式來做防堵啦今天藉這個機會來給一下提醒然後最後是執行端的部分最近我們這個民間上越來越多人是這個"},{"start":7624.475,"end":7644.689,"text":"為了要阻詐結果很多人是領錢啊轉帳啊他其實遇到了很多很多的狀況這我希望這個警政署內政部這邊金管會做一下優化不要到銀樓買黃金被三管無卡結果那個詐騙集團幾十億的人幾十萬就十幾萬就交保這就不對了嘛這輕重緩急比例要注意好拿捏可以嗎好大家一起打詐一起加油啦謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們聽丁學忠委員發言"},{"start":7666.314,"end":7669.235,"text":"感謝召委我請內政部跟警政署內政部 警政署委員好 謝謝今天我們討論這個開發一萬戶的打砸的這個成果因為這次開發一萬戶還給我們建設氣管路電機電動給我們的詐騙集團有機可乘"},{"start":7696.257,"end":7698.358,"text":"好 委員我是不是請警政署來說明"},{"start":7719.626,"end":7726.209,"text":"報告 因為這個爆發10萬戶從今年的照片已經統計到現在說有發生的案件差不多是9件那9件裡面的基礎差不多5件是這個車前進的這部分3件是這個門路 還有一個車子在台這部分我們現時是都"},{"start":7743.475,"end":7748.98,"text":"由案發的有限事件去向相關警察局升立專案現在就很煩了如果從整個詐騙的趨勢來看這件我們撥發一萬塊相關詐欺的案件發生的比例目前可以說是可以控制的財首你都很擔心了叫人家詐騙企業的金錢"},{"start":7767.133,"end":7773.735,"text":"剛才在報告裏面大概有八百多萬這次的重點是這樣那是剖發一萬棵結合甲鹼鎮跟做成八百多萬的財富其實我們已經要推出剖發一萬棵在光樓房定期詐騙集團已經準備好了"},{"start":7792.674,"end":7794.735,"text":"他們的技術兩位比我們更先進所以當我們做到那樣就聽到事端他們就無主意去等那個人長所以有可能這樣就造成他們的損失這個過分我們來進口經濟術家更辛苦了"},{"start":7812.571,"end":7815.433,"text":"未來將對這個網絡經濟更加需要我們人的個資的股份這都要加強一下這個股份再拜託感謝委員這股份我們一定會再加強因為其實在網絡民眾污點這個不對的網站輸入個資現在是很嚴重的問題那委員剛才說點出來我也希望說"},{"start":7838.447,"end":7844.052,"text":"透過委員接受這個方針來全都讓我們全國的民眾都了解可是操作網絡要特別小心尤其你要輸入個人的個資尤其要特別注意千萬不可以在網絡隨便來做輸入這是我們地方的警察局"},{"start":7861.11,"end":7866.852,"text":"平常時都有在宣導我們在遭痛的時候平常時在台上我們都會向記者宣導這個國分我相信說由上到下大家透過媒體也好透過網絡也好透過我們用我們的嘴出來說來宣導已經一定可以奉祉到這裡這個照片的案件好 感謝我們的"},{"start":7890.642,"end":7895.267,"text":"那個內政局啊 陳政署 你們先休息我請訴法局謝謝委員委員好 市長好有一個知名作家 他在他自己的臉書說他是窮 偽冒照片的第一名"},{"start":7915.629,"end":7919.85,"text":"因為這個部分是我們另外一個署在負責但是就我所知我們現在就是民眾如果透過我們網站通報查詢網去做這樣子的一個通報"},{"start":7937.796,"end":7959.042,"text":"我們就會主動的來去看說這個是不是真的是一個詐騙訊息如果是的話那我們就會把這個網頁或者說是這樣子的一個FB我們就會用這個RPD的方式就是說讓民眾他輸入網址的時候會連不到那樣子的一個網頁用這樣的方式來去防止民眾去看到這樣子一個詐騙的一個網頁我們事發局是高飛"},{"start":7964.216,"end":7986.966,"text":"上線通過網 開垃圾經費跟這次申告如何不好意思這個細節的那個經費的話可能我們之後再提供給委員這邊那我們這個之前就已經有上線在去年就已經有上線然後後來我們有把它下架然後再做經把他再做精緻化之後有再重新上線一次這樣子我們這個防炸APP"},{"start":7991.115,"end":7995.861,"text":"下載的數量只有四萬而已但是有四十幾萬的通告可以說明這個查詢網的來源大概是到好 報告委員這個我們感言是我意思說這四十幾萬的通告是從哪裡通過來"},{"start":8011.929,"end":8029.35,"text":"我們很多的管道在做通報啦不只是那個民眾然後我們自己我們也會有用AI的方式去網路上面尋有一些是那個網頁我們就覺得他是有可能是詐騙的網頁的話那我們就會把他這個這些的這個內容我們也會把它放在這樣子的一個"},{"start":8030.049,"end":8049.314,"text":"通報草菁網裡面去做一個後續的一個檢查所以不只是民眾這邊去對疑似詐騙的網頁做通報我們自己也有自動的機制自動的機制那個部分的話其實也尋到蠻多類似的這樣子的一個網頁通報地方政府跟警察單位幫你們做三天的這也很重要我們大家緊張"},{"start":8059.386,"end":8065.648,"text":"前幾天通報的紀律都有比較多對我們這個戶籍的這個做法我們想說有什麼方法可以增加民眾的使用量當然第一個我們會有一些在各式的場合那如果可以方便的話我們都會跟民眾做這樣的宣導那也跟這個"},{"start":8083.624,"end":8109.697,"text":"一些相關的機關去宣導讓他們去跟這個民眾如果說他們有接觸到這些民眾的話可以跟他們做這樣的宣導那這是第一個那當然剛才委員也有提到說這樣子通報可能它的數量也是不多所以我們除了這樣子宣導讓民眾來通報之外我們剛才也有講到說一些自動化的機制我們也會持續的去盡盡量自動化去找這些類似這個詐騙網頁的這樣子的一個機制把它做得更好"},{"start":8110.111,"end":8114.472,"text":"感謝市長我這其實問題有很多剛才市長在說有的,不是你的,要來看一看有的所以今天我們這個市法局雖然是市長以上的層級來整個簡單的問題就是要給大家提醒警察當年在現場努力的防炸每一次鄰居都透過警察跟航班第一時間來作動"},{"start":8140.506,"end":8149.553,"text":"大家盡快期待蘇法局可以做到三年前升職的時候那個國家優秀能力的發揮這個功能的蘇法局當這個數位建設和防範有更好既然這個通關網站機制已經建立起來希望可以發揮到"},{"start":8169.424,"end":8180.01,"text":"會這個好過跟主張的來軟這樣 再解釋一下好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 感謝朝委謝謝丁薛忠委員的質詢接下來我們請徐欣穎委員發言謝謝朝委 謝謝主席 本席請內政部吳次長有請吳次長"},{"start":8199.676,"end":8210.711,"text":"市長 本席想請教我們行政院針對普發現金行政院有沒有召開一個跨部會針對普發現金防詐的跨部會的會議"},{"start":8215.646,"end":8241.521,"text":"谢谢委员指教我想这个在行政院也有打诈指挥中心其实我们在普发现金的作业中就是趁着我刚刚的专案报告的时候其实就已经有所以直接是打诈那边有针对普发现金我看9月份对 就是要针对舆请的部分未来发现金的时候就已经先所以9月份的时候有讨论对 9月份讨论之后有具体针对普发现金怎么防诈吗"},{"start":8242.921,"end":8271.805,"text":"这部分我是不是请那个检证署来说明一下因为我们在打诈有或没有就好我不用详细知道内容有是不是都有好那首先本席要讲的是我们现在防诈政府的动作还有这个感觉是政府在跟诈骗集团第一个比脑力第二个比速度比动作所以7月份就有普发现金1万元的资讯出来"},{"start":8273.487,"end":8297.548,"text":"詐騙集團就開始進行那我們政府九月嘛九月才開始那我在這裡要先請教內政部我們知道有在宣導有在宣傳而且有用各種媒體但是我請教有沒有其中一項宣導是請村里長跟林長有沒有有嗎"},{"start":8301.434,"end":8319.651,"text":"這個部分我跟委員特別報告因為部分的限制我時間不多啦有啦有啦有我們的管理如果有村里廣播系統的就可以做只有廣播系統的才做就村里一定有廣播系統的會公佈啦對啊只有這樣所以你們的做法是這樣"},{"start":8321.192,"end":8324.035,"text":"有的有發傳單所以你們沒有一個統一的做法讓村里長跟林長直接對民眾做宣導沒有明確的吧沒有明確的這個都是拜託民政單位配合這塊有沒有可能改進因為普發現金我們在10月17三讀通過那就是底定了"},{"start":8346.564,"end":8362.646,"text":"那在抵定之前詐騙集團就已經在運作了那我們抵定之後還沒有對我們的民眾特別我們容易受騙的當然網路的宣導還有一些各種電子媒體平面媒體OK"},{"start":8363.928,"end":8380.9,"text":"可是有一群民眾就是一些譬如長者或是中低收入戶身心障礙者他們有些人可能比較沒有長期在使用或接觸你們的宣導平台"},{"start":8381.67,"end":8403.023,"text":"可是這些在林長 村里長他們是會直接接觸的所以這一塊內政部可不可以趕快來加強謝謝委員長我想尤其像一般比較正確的高齡長者全國所有的偏鄉還有這些高齡長者而且他們也是很容易被詐騙的"},{"start":8404.464,"end":8430.314,"text":"我們現在是針對高齡長者的部分的宣導所以針對這一塊是不是加強可以我會請民政單位來做協助對民政因為最主要這個在民政然後再來關懷據點關懷據點的加強宣導這個你們要跨部會這個可能在衛福部就在衛福部對所以這些我要特別提醒好那這個接下來接下來就是我們主要幾個主軸這次普發現金"},{"start":8433.432,"end":8450.804,"text":"我們可以上網登錄直接入帳還有有一些它本來就有帳戶國家會直接打進去的那有很大一塊是ATM對不對ATM的部分我想次長或是副署長今天來"},{"start":8451.664,"end":8470.24,"text":"你們應該很清楚我們ATM現在有一種有一種這種詐騙就是他會在這個ATM現金出鈔口裝金屬板或是其他裝置讓鈔票沒有辦法順利吐出可是實際上錢已經離開了銀行喔次長你知道有這種情況嗎我們台灣好像還沒有台灣很多"},{"start":8480.27,"end":8493.949,"text":"台灣還沒有嗎跟委員報告這一委員剛提出來的案例外國確實有發生在台灣目前我們是還沒有接過相關的報案台灣的民眾沒有我手上資料就很多ATM這樣"},{"start":8496.201,"end":8524.125,"text":"我其實也是今天這個案我才知道有這一個情況而且我們查了有啊這個整個媒體都有所以這一塊我們真的要趕快來防堵因為接下來好像是在17號開始ATM就要開始可以在ATM取款所以我們現在台灣還沒有但是那我要問了有沒有部署"},{"start":8525.894,"end":8538.898,"text":"其實有喔 我這邊手上有資料我了解 可能我們現在ATM提令如果說民眾提令發生問題他直接就會聯絡相關的銀行來做處理那要加強部署這部分沒問題啦來來來 我就要針對這一塊你ATM很多民眾他以為是故障他覺得是機器故障他可能就離開"},{"start":8554.022,"end":8572.188,"text":"离开ATM他就走了结果设装置的诈骗者他就过来他就有办法把钱就领走了这一个情况我们台湾17号下礼拜一马上就开始ATM了"},{"start":8573.785,"end":8594.654,"text":"我們不希望聽到因為全國除了銀行的ATM還有很多超商都有ATM所以這一塊本席要求我們要在那個螢幕上請銀行加強警示如果你鈔票沒有順利出來第一個提醒他不要離開第二個馬上聯絡什麼電話來確認不然等到他覺得"},{"start":8604.16,"end":8610.75,"text":"這個機器有問題那我就去反應機器結果他離開前就被領走了這個部分你說"},{"start":8613.462,"end":8642.57,"text":"ATM的部分今天剛好主管的金管會有來我理解是都有做了金管會要給他說明一下是不是來金管會針對這一塊ATM你們有沒有掌握到因為馬上我覺得很大宗會用ATM跟委員報告之前像這個錢被擋住的情形我們這邊是沒有得到銀行有通報的案例但是我們有請銀行來加強"},{"start":8643.482,"end":8669.773,"text":"在這個他們設置的ATM的一個巡查那如果客戶在領錢的時候有任何的問題都可以就近跟行員來問那如果是行外的就像超商的那我們也有請這個銀行在這個上面一定要寫聯絡電話那如果有任何的問題都可以盡快先打電話所以聯絡電話還不夠你要警示不要離開"},{"start":8671.67,"end":8684.055,"text":"他如果离开就没有办法了离开人家就去拿了是可不可以加强这一块而且这个部分我们下个礼拜一就开始有ATM提领的整个已经开始"},{"start":8684.71,"end":8708.054,"text":"所以在这之前我们要请银行一定要整个做巡查跟盘查并且我要请金管会要确认你那个警示要加强那个警示的讯息你一定要叫他先不要离开他离开这个诈骗的方式就是他离开钱就他一离开人家都在锁定他离开他钱就被领走了"},{"start":8709.082,"end":8733.007,"text":"是 那我们回去我们看怎么来对 你们要赶快加速因为我们中华民国政府我们台湾怎么都输给这个诈骗集团的动作速度还有各种花样各种方式如果国外已经有我们应该要超前部署其实现在部署已经不是超前了"},{"start":8733.527,"end":8759.657,"text":"所以這一塊可不可以加強一定要加強我們不希望這一波的普發現金一萬元發生這樣的情況好嗎好最後我們請這個是陰陽局副局長是不是那麻煩最後本席要在這裡來詢問一下次長還有副局長請問你們有沒有聽過共享責任框架"},{"start":8763.809,"end":8782.262,"text":"新加坡在去年年底就去年12月實施一個共享責任框架這個框架是新加坡的金管局他們的金管局主導也就是說強制金融機構還有電信業者"},{"start":8783.243,"end":8788.068,"text":"他必須分攤防詐的責任如果銀行沒有盡到實時的詐騙監控的義務就必須對受害者進行補償"},{"start":8797.462,"end":8825.081,"text":"這個是新加坡在做的那我們台灣呢不管是這次的普發現金或者是日常的轉帳防詐的責任好像都在政府的宣導還有人民自己注意這兩塊那銀行好像是局外人做收手續費可是卻不用負擔實質的這個防詐的責任所以我們台灣應該要來思考所以你們從來不知道這種情況嗎"},{"start":8827.983,"end":8845.956,"text":"而且我在這邊講一下新加坡因為這樣做他們整個的防詐詐損率降低了30%降低了30%我這樣算我們一年那個詐騙金額上千億你30%就少掉300億"},{"start":8847.816,"end":8864.536,"text":"所以這一個部分我要在這裡要求我們金管會今天當然是銀行局副局長來是不是可以帶回去是不是可以來研擬可以嗎我們把委員的這個建議我們帶回去來做研議對 可不可以在"},{"start":8866.001,"end":8891.75,"text":"一个月内或两个月好了你们看我们这个台湾版的金融防诈共享责任框架你们至少看你们讨论的可行性或者是你们可以怎么来做因为大家要共同有责任可以吗两个月给你们两个月对因为我看你们好像对这一块还不知道我们其实常常可以见闲思齐"},{"start":8892.62,"end":8913.892,"text":"世界各國打詐有效而且呢能夠真實的確實的能夠防堵詐騙有成效的國家的做法我們真的可以來借鏡 好不好好的好 好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝徐欣英委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":8936.957,"end":8960.91,"text":"好 主席 各位委員 請次長請吳次長委員好 次長好這個今天要談的是跟這個災後復原重建有關係所以要請次長特別轉達給這個國土署好 這個我曾經在10月23號發函針對有關這個房子"},{"start":8966.877,"end":8994.844,"text":"他原来的房子住这边有户籍在这里后来分家分家但是户籍还在这里这边又盖一个房子盖了房子但是他户籍还在这里自有独立的房屋了也有店表村长也发了实际居住的证明了结果你们没有同意答复了没有同意"},{"start":8996.448,"end":9023.495,"text":"这个我们从法律面水灾灾害救助总列及标准规定的很清楚第4条第5款住户淹水救助实际居住之住屋最主要实际居住之住屋他还没有谈所有钱赚什么之类没有谈实际居住之住屋还不是那个"},{"start":9024.369,"end":9052.714,"text":"这个住宅医法的住宅那两个字所以这个不是很宽的因水在淹水达50公里以上以一门牌为一副计算但是很重要通常你们会忽略掉这个但书但见物分别独立或非属独立而为不同利生活负责因依其事实认定之"},{"start":9053.925,"end":9080.882,"text":"所以何況這個特別條例還要更寬不受一門牌與附之限制並排除現行水災災害救助種類的規範的限制所謂的排除不是說是要更寬的意思特別條例就是要更寬所以這個部分要回去請那個國土署重新再審查何況在這個當初"},{"start":9083.104,"end":9111.591,"text":"特別條例裡面本來要把這些條文放進去後來說大家朝野協商就說用附帶結義所以這裡面寫得很清楚實際居住自有獨立房屋有的有所有錢狀有的沒有所有錢狀有的有社戶籍有的沒有門牌但是他就是一個自有獨立房屋所以這個部分要請這個次長"},{"start":9112.406,"end":9140.254,"text":"好不好好謝謝委員我想那個這次馬太安的這個特別條例也過了那接下來就是現場還有一些要認定的部分那我想委員剛談的部分我會請國土署就這個認定標準第一個重寬重減不只是這一次包括這一次的風災豪雨包括蘇澳這邊也是很嚴重啊都有所以這個部分要請同仁重寬去處理這個我們會來處理"},{"start":9142.355,"end":9146.283,"text":"尤其是光復這個有特別預算嘛好不好好好謝謝"},{"start":9153.873,"end":9169.985,"text":"謝謝曾天才委員的發言那接下來請賴會員發言賴會員委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌委員不在請武力華委員武力華委員不在請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在"},{"start":9175.309,"end":9185.993,"text":"現在我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員不在現在請吳啟明委員發言好 召委一位同仁請我們內政部處長還有我們事務發布的王司長我請內政部還有事務發布"},{"start":9203.703,"end":9227.522,"text":"委員好好 次長好今天大家都在關心就是詐騙集團尤其我們現在要普發這1萬塊那本市這邊的資料已經有詐騙集團詐騙了800多萬那其實他們現在的詐騙的手法又翻新了像那個油脊"},{"start":9228.157,"end":9257.132,"text":"尤其來聯絡那個被害者說他的一萬塊的補花已經被人領走了那還能盜取他的所有的資料尤其光是一筆就來到300多萬是一個黃金的點子那這個是我們事發部要怎樣來防止因為很多詐騙都是在網路也好網路的刊登"},{"start":9257.728,"end":9279.775,"text":"因為網路刊登真的都是一些層出不窮那我們的政府要怎樣來喝止這個詐騙集團不要再一直延燒下去那這是對國人一種保障那未來我們有沒什麼具體的喝止的方案請我們事劃部來回答還是我們處長要回答報告委員"},{"start":9283.666,"end":9303.243,"text":"針對於網站或是網頁的這樣的詐騙那我們蘇大部這邊目前最重要的機制就是一個網站通報查詢網包括民眾如果檢舉這樣子的一個詐騙或者是說我們自己我們有一個自動的去巡查就是在網路上面我們有一個AI的這樣子一個程式自己去巡"},{"start":9304.005,"end":9327.624,"text":"我們有認為疑似詐騙或疑似是這個有問題的這種網頁我們就會把他納到那裡面那我們會去跟這個當事人或是說是跟機關這邊來求證如果他確定是一個詐騙的話我們就會把讓他阻斷然後民眾可以不要連到他上面去那針對這一次的普發這個部分的話我們也是一樣就會用這樣子的方式也用這樣的方式來做一個巡查"},{"start":9328.36,"end":9339.732,"text":"因為現在是剛開始而已那你後續還會有很多這種案件我們要怎樣來克制這種這種比較具體的因為我看我們的"},{"start":9341.048,"end":9366.869,"text":"不管在網路不管在電視媒體是不是多先導民眾讓民眾多一層了解對他們也多一層的保障那不然你算詐騙集團真的在台灣真的非常的橫行那也當真的是整個對台灣的國民有的都損失的都是非常嚴重都是他們的辛苦錢所以我們要怎樣想出一套"},{"start":9367.881,"end":9396.402,"text":"比較快的速度能來渡劫你看在網路刊登有問題的話就馬上要求他們來下架這是比較具體的因為這是事務發布的職權是你們主管單位所以真的一些詐騙那麼很險都是我們事務發布一定要非常積極我看我們警政署包含我們情治單位大家都很賣力在做那是不是我們事務部也要負起這個責任"},{"start":9398.612,"end":9422.393,"text":"也是跟委員報告就是我們包括說我們自己去巡查這樣子的一個網站我們會更積極然後那個巡查那個方式也會更精確另外一個就是針對一些目前一萬的這個部分我們宣導都是說各個民眾他就是只相信一萬.gov.tw這樣子的網站的諮詢另外就是"},{"start":9423.376,"end":9448.508,"text":"包括金融機構包括我們政府機關都不會主動的去通知民眾說來領錢或者說是有什麼樣子的狀況這樣子這個是我們就是從源頭就是希望說防止就是讓民眾就不用相信這些其他的來源的一些資訊對啦因為我們事務部你看是人手人手到底夠不過因為"},{"start":9450.354,"end":9479.504,"text":"網站一出來我們還是你樹花部我們是剛成立是人員編制夠不夠編制的部分的話這個部分我就可能不是我職權上面可以回答但是就我們現在在做導致這個部分包括我們自己的素產署還有我們那個其他的幾個司署都同時就全力的來做一個協助對要求我們同仁一定要積極因為本市這邊監察院也發出了"},{"start":9480.219,"end":9504.706,"text":"對於自信隱私的法治環境建構不足其實你看了在國際的那個網路平台你上那個ETA他們一年的收益那個金額都非常嚇人光是詐騙集團的網站他們的收益那所以我們台灣一定要很嚴格去管制只要有"},{"start":9505.424,"end":9534.072,"text":"有問題的網站我們都要很積極包含我們各單位都是要全力來配合這樣才能夠來做好這種動作好不好好好謝謝謝謝吳啟明委員發言接下來請林楚英委員發言林楚英委員林楚英委員不在請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":9543.04,"end":9554.45,"text":"我們請這一個先請先請內政部好了請內政部吳次長"},{"start":9557.788,"end":9577.057,"text":"市長好市長我今天要問的是針對炸棄犯的資料庫的建置那今天有數位部內政部跟金管會財政部都有派員來那我想要來一個一個來請教上個月我來質詢法務部長的時候"},{"start":9578.678,"end":9591.976,"text":"那有問他說是否能讓金融機構來事前比對有關詐欺相關的前科或者是通緝犯的資料時他說因為這個法源的關係可能要他保留態度"},{"start":9592.881,"end":9618.728,"text":"那法務部認為目前沒有明確的法源可以授權這樣的資料的勾結那現在的預警中心即使提供賬戶資料也必須去識別化是不是這樣這個我想要確認一下這個部長講的是正確的嗎跟內政部的這一個得到的資訊也是一樣的嗎或者是你們的方針也是一樣的嗎我想我可不可以請那個警政署來幫我們說明一下警政署任何可以說明的人都可以"},{"start":9621.255,"end":9648.437,"text":"是不是可以把前科或者是通緝犯的資料先做事前比對這個有沒有這個法源上面的疑慮目前詐房條例上面是沒有這個法源目前沒有嗎目前沒有所以沒有辦法在明確的法源之下提供賬戶資料給不管是銀行或者是預警中心就是明確的這些可能是通緝犯可能是這個前科犯現在還是沒有的"},{"start":9649.454,"end":9674.075,"text":"那就你們在內政部的了解跟應對這些詐欺犯的話你覺得未來修法可以把這個東西併入嗎你們有什麼樣的擔憂或者是你們覺得這是一個好的方法跟委員報告只要能夠防治詐騙當然我們都很樂意協助打擊詐騙的相關單位包括銀行在內提供他們詳盡的資料"},{"start":9677.613,"end":9696.184,"text":"據我的理解我們還有一個信用信用的徵信中心那如果法律允許的話我們警政署是樂見這樣的方式來做對打擊詐騙的一個處理所以說如果我們包含立法委員主動提案的話針對前科犯針對詐欺犯"},{"start":9697.899,"end":9715.412,"text":"真的有詐欺的前科犯跟通緝犯的話你們是會認為這樣子的立法是有助於你們去防詐當然有助於因為我們現在的防詐系統就因為包含隱私的保障等等所以沒有辦法去做這些預防的動作所以我們看到說詐欺犯出獄兩年的再犯率是23%"},{"start":9716.713,"end":9735.896,"text":"23.2所以這代表說我們是讓高風險的這一群人不斷的重複作業因為我們現在不是在抓新的光是抓舊的就抓不完我要把這些累犯的炸雞飯的資訊來提供給銀行做高風險的勾擊這樣可以未來有效的來去減免那接下來我要請問數位發展部你好"},{"start":9745.645,"end":9762.132,"text":"那我現在要請教數位部假設我們如同剛才的內政部的這些同仁們所提到的有這樣相關的修法之後可以把這些包含已經通緝的有前科特別是詐欺前科的可以做勾擊的話你們能不能夠協助相關的制度跟系統"},{"start":9763.252,"end":9789.684,"text":"以後就是讓這些內政部警政單位所掌握的犯罪資料可以依法提供給金融監理單位來去做事前的防範就是說不用再重新再去搜尋因為你要如果要去從資料庫搜尋要搜尋前科再搜尋種類再搜尋詐欺再搜尋時間有沒有再累積再犯你們有沒有辦法做出一個很好的界面是 跟委員報告其實我們現在在跨機關的資料傳輸的這邊我們已經有一個叫做T-Law的一個傳輸的管道那是"},{"start":9790.832,"end":9795.261,"text":"讓機關之間如果他傳輸機敏的資料的話都可以透過這樣子的管道來傳所以剛才委員講到幾個這樣子的一個機關如果以後要"},{"start":9798.545,"end":9823.389,"text":"做些機密資料傳輸 都可以用這樣子的機制只要有法源基礎之後我再確認一下 只要有法源基礎之後包含通緝跟我們把他限縮在詐欺 潛科跟詐欺的這個累犯就能夠透過你們的系統把這些名單 潛科 灌犯 集團帳戶到被查的金流資訊傳給金融機構你們是有自信可以把這個東西完成做好各位報告 我們那個是一個"},{"start":9824.293,"end":9836.705,"text":"一個傳輸的管道安全傳輸管道至於說要傳什麼樣的資料或是說在接收端或是提供端這邊應該要用什麼樣子的一個你可以傳出這些資料給他們那金管會"},{"start":9845.028,"end":9869.188,"text":"你好那我想請教金管會的同仁你們現在有推這個鷹眼市詐聯盟跟刑事警察局35家銀行還有AI的新創公司合作你說要透過AI模型去分析嗎那目前是主要是分析是不是有異常金流我目前這樣講都不正確嗎是的有計算協助這個銀行進行事後的凍結或通報這樣講沒錯吧是那我剛才提到這些事前的這些狀況目前還沒有嗎"},{"start":9870.477,"end":9893.366,"text":"跟委員報告如果是事前的話銀行都會有自建的名單這個名單可能是買的可能是負面新聞上去查像通緝犯那些那個名單可能就不完整還是需要剛才我們剛才聽到數位部的可以把這些機敏的資訊只要有法源基礎傳給我們的金管的這個單位那他們就可以漏過這個因緣人模"},{"start":9893.766,"end":9904.951,"text":"事前的去做預防有更完整的資料庫這樣做的話是不是更適合更能夠妥當的去來打擊這個詐欺是如果銀行的這個資訊多的話他更能辨識高風險的"},{"start":9905.936,"end":9927.512,"text":"好 那我今天為什麼難得有這個機會我把這個數位部監管會內政部我把你們現在遇到的主要的問題把它提出來當我們有收集完這些完整的資訊之後我們就可以跟保護部來去一起請教看怎麼樣可以把我們之前講的法源的基礎把它做好當然我們可以作為立法委員自己提案但是我希望更好的方式是有一個願板"},{"start":9928.112,"end":9951.48,"text":"也就是說數位部經管會跟這個內政部直接跟法務部來去討論說怎麼樣能夠在權衡法源基礎之下來提出剛才我講到這個法案能夠把這個預防重複犯的這個法案能夠來提出來就是說累犯通緝犯特別是詐欺的前科犯整個資料庫完整之後你們再去做AI的攻擊會更有效謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9957.507,"end":9963.853,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言接下來我們請蘇欽全委員蘇欽全委員蘇欽全委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊發言首先邀請蘇發布邀請蘇發布"},{"start":9982.429,"end":9999.649,"text":"本席請教 從我們今年的11月5號我們開始發放普發現金1萬元的政策線上登記您領了嗎我自己還沒領 還沒去登記還沒登記 那你預估會用什麼方式呢"},{"start":10000.351,"end":10017.46,"text":"我應該也是用這個線上登記的方式用線上登記那平台上現在登記需要填寫身份證金融帳號健保卡那當然我們現在宣稱說是符合這個高資安的標準"},{"start":10018.34,"end":10037.798,"text":"但是你有沒有聽到民眾因為近期的這個詐騙氾濫所以你只要涉及要填寫的這一些他都會擔心受騙所以他寧可放棄了線上登記改到ATM或者是改到郵局臨櫃來領現金"},{"start":10040.12,"end":10058.513,"text":"這樣子的現象等於會直接反映到速發部我們在政策落實跟在民眾的信賴度建立上似乎還有精進的空間那麼本席在這邊要請教也就是速發部你如何看待民眾生怕我將這三個資料這個登記上網之後呢怕會被詐騙因為現在詐騙非常的氾濫那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":10068.8,"end":10086.757,"text":"如何來讓平台他是有信任度操作是安全跟防詐的一個教育請做說明是 報告委員就是我們現在包括剛才委員講到的說身份證字號健保卡號跟帳號其實他是要同一個人"},{"start":10087.458,"end":10102.323,"text":"我们会去检查是同一个人才会去把那个钱汇进去所以即使他这个身份证号当然是同一个人你怎么可能身份证跟你的账号不一样那你怎么可能对不对你这说明螺旗怪怪的当然是同一个人他就依照你的指令这样去登记但是他会害怕因为诈骗犯难太严重所以即使说这个诈骗集团拿着别人的资料去填"},{"start":10117.56,"end":10144.924,"text":"最后这个钱一定是汇到这个人的账号因为他三个是要同一个人才会通过所以最有钱不会汇到诈骗集团的账号去一定是到这个人的账号那这个是我们技术上面可以把它解决的你们现在技术这么解决但是会再衍生第二个问题也就是我这一些资料公开之后在我还没有收到钱的时候他会不会被转换出去"},{"start":10145.804,"end":10173.389,"text":"有沒有這個危機不會不會會不會有這個危機這個就是本席非常希望因為它是一個便利的但是當民眾有疑慮的時候我們要怎麼樣去解除民眾的疑慮只有我們單位知道民眾還是這個憂心這樣是不夠的所以本席才會說我們在整個信賴度上面我們要怎麼樣去加強還有我們防詐的一個教育要怎麼樣落實讓民眾可以清楚"},{"start":10174.552,"end":10189.167,"text":"報告委員我們可以在我們那個10000.gov.nz這個網站上面就在登記那邊我們可以多一點訊息讓民眾可以更放心這樣子的一個方式這個也是你精進的方案之一所以本席也希望因為我們現在剛開始"},{"start":10190.749,"end":10211.193,"text":"很多人還是告訴我說我去郵局領 我去ATM領這樣我比較放心但是我們既然已經有速發部來開發不要讓民眾不放心你把你的經濟方案給本席讓民眾對於我們的平台是信賴的好的把那個方案給本席 謝謝接下來本席邀請金管會"},{"start":10217.298,"end":10226.305,"text":"金管會我們接受到蠻多的一個陳情因為金管會我們在要求銀行啟用這個AI風險系統打擊詐騙控管 這是對的但是問題是有很多的零工的經紀者比如說網拍 呼編單這一種的以及中高齡的用戶那麼他們因為是小額平凡的交易或者是新轉帳的這個情況比較頻繁"},{"start":10247.282,"end":10265.328,"text":"但是它是一個正常的一個生活所需的必要技術也好 方法也好必要用的一個它的工具所以在這種情況之下有一個帳戶在三個月內有26筆的小額匯款但是另外還有6筆每一筆不到3000元"},{"start":10267.935,"end":10295.546,"text":"不到3000元的這個匯款但是它被銀行鎖住了那鎖住了它當然它的生財工具就被凍結所以在這樣的一個情況之下因為它被誤以為是高風險的賬號所以在這樣的情況之下呢本席要請教我們銀行如果在明確的標準跟救濟的管道應該要有這些救濟的管道要迅速 而且有救濟的管道"},{"start":10296.326,"end":10320.847,"text":"能夠讓民眾在正常生活跟正常收入的時候它不受影響因為它的一個經濟體的方式是不一樣的是小額而且頻繁的所以我們希望也就是金融在防詐的時候不要成為它是生活的阻礙而且削弱了金融的一個包容性所以因此本席要請教對於合法使用"},{"start":10321.367,"end":10338.222,"text":"因高風險而被排除金融體系的這個情況我們對於這樣子的一個銀行風險控管的標準以及設立快速救濟的通道我們應該是要提出具體的方案吧請做說明是 謝委員的這個垂詢"},{"start":10341.38,"end":10371.24,"text":"那我们对于银行去控管账户我们都会要求他做一个事前的一个标准严格的标准的一个审查那事中的话也要随时去看这个客户的一个实际的状况那事后的话也要检查他们控管的这个方式合不合理像委员刚提到的个案那如果是正常交易的那他如果被锁住了要马上跟银行联络银行就会去判断他如果是网拍他有大量进出的需要"},{"start":10371.66,"end":10394.714,"text":"那他馬上就會給他解鎖那這個解鎖的方式可能包括電話 網路 臨櫃都可以沒有那麼清楚也沒有那麼簡便所以本席接到這樣子的陳情所以要跟這個單位來說明我們當然防詐我們一定要防詐控管這個風險但是它是正常所需要的當他發現被鎖的時候"},{"start":10398.016,"end":10406.763,"text":"他去陳情的時候他去說明的時候本席認為在整個救濟的管道應該要更便捷更快速是就誠如我剛跟委員報告的目前大概就是我剛說的三種方式那如果是個案的話委員是不是可以提供給我們不是說個案我們現在在討論的"},{"start":10421.315,"end":10450.394,"text":"是他的制度跟方向所以本席也具體建議您給這個銀行團告訴他們你們現在有你們的方案那你們是不是再去檢視民眾有困難的時候如果他屬實你們查證他是如本席剛才所說的忽偏大的網拍的他必須要如此的時候那麼也請具體以快速簡便的方式讓他們可以恢復他正常生活所需"},{"start":10451.054,"end":10458.957,"text":"是 好 我們回去再好 進行方案給本席 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊明委員發言接下來我們請林思明委員發言好 謝謝召委召委我們請移民署副署長請副署長委員好副署長"},{"start":10481.018,"end":10510.431,"text":"有關這次那個詐騙集團太子集團我們看一下那個報紙的這個所載說兩位終極高層來台報找林思明李德維官說那移民署你們的回應是什麼跟委員報告就是這我們所了解其實這個這部分的話有關這部分相關的案件並沒有委員這方面的一個關切"},{"start":10511.055,"end":10535.548,"text":"沒有嘛你大聲說出來有沒有沒有沒有嘛其實這個我看你們的回應報紙就看紅框那一段移民署回應說其中一位留學風是在2015年以團體旅遊試遊來台另一位李承承則在2017和2018以旅機海外路人來台觀光試遊來台"},{"start":10537.988,"end":10561.222,"text":"請問副組長 是這兩位分別是在2015 2017 2018的觀光室有來台嘛當時本席啊還不是立委 這你知道吧 是我不是立委啊 是所以媒體什麼一花接木啊一勾到塞勾說我是三屆的資深立委硬要把它湊在一起把這件事湊在一起"},{"start":10562.389,"end":10586.42,"text":"所以本席當時任職的是新竹縣議會我想問移民署議員有權責可以跟你們去做任何的一個關說嗎有可能嗎 我講可能就好了你不要講有沒有 有可能嗎議員可以去利用職權去關說移民署嗎跟委員報告這個案件確實是沒有就沒有嘛"},{"start":10587.685,"end":10610.873,"text":"所以我想李德維我也要幫他這個講一下李德維委員當時也是不是不分區委員他跟我一樣都是2020以後才擔任立委所以我們有什麼權責可以去影響到移民署就相關境外人士入台的相關的一個審查所以這件事情真的是非常的烏龍那我想這個其實署長 副長"},{"start":10616.343,"end":10637.671,"text":"對於相關這些入台人士他到底他符不符合相關的一個規定可以到我們進入入台你們審查的程序大概是怎麼樣你可以說一下嗎我們這部分的話針對這些如果是有具有中國大陸背景的部分我們會有一個聯審的機制會依照相關的規定來嚴格的審查"},{"start":10640.259,"end":10661.281,"text":"所以你們一定會依照相關的規定依法嚴格審查而且是聯席審查不是只有你們還有陸委會好多單位聯席的一個審查所以即便我們講即便我是立委我有可能干涉嗎可以干涉到你們嗎可以去什麼關說或者用任何的方式來影響你們嗎"},{"start":10662.691,"end":10681.178,"text":"報告不管是民眾或者是民意代表都行政機關都會接受詢問詢問可能是一些行政流程或什麼等等但是有關這個審查的部分呢行政機關這跨機關的審查一定是依法辦理是好謝謝最後我要再跟副長確認本席從我是20202月1號上任立委"},{"start":10688.569,"end":10713.037,"text":"從20202月1號我擔任立委到現在的所謂的他們紫色 隱色說什麼我去關說到現在為止 到今天為止本席辦公室有針對任何一位太子集團的成員他入境台灣的申請案發過任何的函文或者召開任何的一場協調會嗎報告沒有本席辦公室有嗎報告沒有沒有嗎是OK"},{"start":10715.504,"end":10739.031,"text":"所以本席我想我在這裡一定要大聲的嚴正的我要再做聲明過去我擔任縣議員或是現任立法委員從來沒有對太子集團的相關人士進行關說對於任何的詐騙行為我們更是深惡痛絕將來我會繼續秉持我立委的職責打擊詐騙保護我們民眾生命財產的安全"},{"start":10739.711,"end":10751.241,"text":"我想我是新竹縣民新竹縣民的清白不容被污蔑被欺壓白白不給我擬到歐有這種媒體所以我想"},{"start":10758.598,"end":10769.666,"text":"移民署 像你們的回應你們跟這個媒體的回應我不知道是什麼但是我還是希望移民署沒有的事你們要大聲跟媒體講你不能這樣烏龍爆料這樣去損害一個人的名譽你要告訴他真的我覺得這事情太離譜了但我也謝謝你剛才還我的一個清白明確的告訴社會大眾絕對沒有這件事以上 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10787.713,"end":10810.883,"text":"謝謝林思明委員 確實這個也請移民署這邊會後也能夠來再說一個說明把你們的說的話還跟媒體的話剪接在一起也容易讓民眾無道而造成一些困擾我相信這個署裡面之後也來做一些澄清的動作 謝謝移民署接下來我們請邱志偉委員"},{"start":10824.52,"end":10846.73,"text":"好謝謝是不是請內政部警政署林副署長請管會應當局王副局長好請 助發部政府數位政務司王市長請以上單位好委員好這個有時候詐團真的是非常厲害這個"},{"start":10848.874,"end":10870.709,"text":"每一個timing都比政府相關政策細節都設想更做到所以有時候SATO變成一個政策的參與者為什麼這樣講有很多的這個 比方說這次的普發現金一萬塊銀行 銀行局是不是有18家的銀行有這個普發加碼有沒有普發加碼"},{"start":10873.957,"end":10895.663,"text":"是ATM的部分對 普發價碼所以你就這樣說這個有很多的訊息比方有18家小營普發價碼是利益良善但是會有很多讓這個詐團去做政策參與的空間一般民眾沒有辦法去判別哪一個是真的這個APP哪一個是假的APP哪一個是真的QR碼沒有辦法去判別所以你政策越複雜它就更多參與的機會"},{"start":10903.237,"end":10928.987,"text":"因為你那麼多資訊裡面連一般這個知識分子或者這個青壯年都沒有辦法去做很精確的判斷更何況這個老年人或者銀髮族或者是我們長輩所以你們有這個責任去針對所有的這個每個 scenario不管是銀行局針對18家銀行或者是這個警政署"},{"start":10929.915,"end":10954.712,"text":"或者是速發部你要加強宣導哪些是正確的網站比方說這個普發現金的這個官網官網印尼達普發現金它出來的正確網站哪一個可以去分辨然後各單位沒有去試權啊財政部有財政部的網站然後內政部有內政部的網站國庫署還有國庫署的網站莫衷於是每個銀行也有它銀行的網站"},{"start":10962.068,"end":10973.898,"text":"所以利益良善的政策讓很多的這個詐團有很多的這個參與的這個縫隙跟空間他只要一個環節紀錄你的個資又被盜走了你的錢被領走了所以我覺得這部分是不是警政署這個或者是次長這邊有沒有什麼具體的對策這個有沒有做過統計受害者"},{"start":10990.271,"end":11014.62,"text":"是年長者比較多對不對有沒有做過統計詐騙的受害者那個李副署長跟我們報告目前看起來詐騙的受害者的部分老年人年長者啊占一定的比例差不多兩下左右啦並不是最高但也是非常嚴重有沒有說集中在這個非都會區或者都會區"},{"start":11015.698,"end":11042.081,"text":"大部分均分配是比較多的當然譬如講偏鄉地區還是有花生所以你要針對比較容易產生詐騙行為或者受害者比較集中的區域哪些區域你要加強去宣導跟我們報告有的而且還結合衛生署的長照機構都有加強這一部分的一個宣導所以我要說的是你現在各部分沒有統一"},{"start":11043.001,"end":11051.408,"text":"那特別銀行局你針對這18家這個普發普發加碼的部分你要做一個管控你要跟民眾這個說明銀行局要說明這哪些是正確的網站另外速發部有責任速發部速發部你應該有一個全國統一的政府的數位認證的制度你們有嗎"},{"start":11067.952,"end":11086.739,"text":"我們這一次就是針對於普發一萬的部分我們就是對外宣導或者說是我們自己都是只認明在一萬.gov這個網站至於剛才那個向委員有在畫面上顯示普發網站這件事情的話他會連到財政部那邊他裡面的內容也會"},{"start":11087.559,"end":11113.588,"text":"連到這個普發10000的網站即使說民眾他可能不知道說他10000.gov.tw到底是把他打在網址列還是打在這個Google搜尋列那我們也有設計說即使他打在搜尋列我們第一個出來的也是我們普發10000的那個網站所以讓民眾可以比較容易就到這個我們10000的這個網站訊息一定要正確而且要集中然後讓人民要讓老百姓能夠很明確的"},{"start":11115.322,"end":11122.291,"text":"辨別真偽另外這個互動式的這個防詐界面這裡面也要考慮去建立這個書畫部互動式的防詐界面另外跨部會也要有這個虛偽網站的這個監控機制"},{"start":11134.588,"end":11150.296,"text":"你要要求這個平台馬上下架虛偽網站因為你虛偽網站存在比方說過去很多申請簽證那根本是假的網站嘛所以你要有跨部會的你沒看過嗎 聽不懂啦在我這裡啦 在我頭上裡面啦虛偽網站的這個監控機制你跨部會去查在銀行局你要去查你這個18家普發現金的這個銀行到底哪些是虛偽的"},{"start":11163.8,"end":11190.673,"text":"包括抒發部你要協調各部會去有一個網站微網站的這個監控機制虛偽網站監控機制然後讓數位安全能夠這個教育能夠深入到每一個世代每一個區域這防篡不是現在才做是持續都會存在我們唯有更好的政策來防堵來防避我說說看的都是"},{"start":11191.616,"end":11208.667,"text":"都是相對這個比較弱勢的所以這部分我想各部會要特別蘇發部我覺得要更努力把這個機制建立起來好謝謝好謝謝邱志維委員接下來我們請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":11223.746,"end":11227.048,"text":"我先請財政部請財政部這個是副署長我想問一下因為昨天大家開始陸陸續續有收到這1萬塊那如果用匯款的話有兩種標註記的方式一種叫行政院發另外一個叫全民加一政府相挺請教一下這是為了防詐嗎還是"},{"start":11254.513,"end":11282.092,"text":"當初是怎麼考量要這樣子註記是 跟委員報告這次我們的補發現金一萬塊我們是參照112年那時候補發六千塊的一個模式所以在入帳的相關的訊息裡面就是會用行政院發跟補發的專案名稱主要就是說讓民眾知道就是這個這筆錢是行政院發的"},{"start":11284.21,"end":11311.795,"text":"那政府鄉庭是為什麼會有這四個字那是這個普發現金一萬的專案的名稱這個現金專案叫政府鄉庭我以為叫做違憲我以為叫掏空國庫我以為叫做債留子孫不是啦 我覺得你們政府怎麼這樣當時我們國民黨民眾黨在立法院說要普發現金一萬的時候行政院把我們講那麼難聽"},{"start":11314.953,"end":11339.304,"text":"說這個錢違憲啊 淘空國庫債留子孫啊然後院長講說這個錢拿去買遙控飛機冰箱就沒了讓那些領到錢的人覺得很不好意思對 我怎麼去貪了一萬塊就現在發錢的時候說 欸 這我挺你啊我很贊同你們現在的態度啊可是為什麼當時大家在討論這件事情的時候你不是說 對 我們大家就來看看怎麼挺一起來挺人民 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麻煩請院長謝謝我請院長院長早安 院長在你應該是在上個月吧你有在美國史丹佛有進行一個演講嗎是叫做大概是跟台灣21世紀產業創新還有永續經營有關那這個我在網路上也有看了院長的演講那院長的演講裡面提到一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":37.202,"end":63.058,"text":"就是有關於我們的能源政策但這個議題跟民進黨政府長期跟我們講的數據是天差地別按照現在政府告訴我們的說法2030年我們的綠電要到30%然後燃煤是佔20%燃氣佔50%因為非核家園嘛然後之前還有一個因為2050就是要全世界要達到淨零碳排"},{"start":64.039,"end":67.885,"text":"所以政府也有告訴我們一個淨零碳排的目標也就是"},{"start":70.251,"end":93.731,"text":"2050年的時候我們主要的用電的配比是要以再生能源為主大概要佔60%到70%火力發電20%到27%氫能是9%到12%這是在行政院網站都查得到的然後再生能源60%到70%裡面主力就是風力跟光電這是政府告訴我們的"},{"start":94.071,"end":121.104,"text":"當然中研院是研究機構大概跟行政院不同體系但是因為院長是我們中研院是研究的最高的機關您講的話我相信是非常有代表性而且是科學理性的沒有帶有意識形態也沒有政治性您在史丹佛的演講提到一個問題你就說台灣地狹人稠實際上光電是難以發展 對吧"},{"start":122.318,"end":148.914,"text":"三分之二是3D嘛所以我們實際上能夠發展光電的地條件有限這是沒錯沒錯嘛但是我們現在仍然是還是要大力發展並不是說這樣子就不發展但是即使大力發展仍然是沒有辦法滿足我們所有的綠電的需求這個意思但是並不是不發展對 當然啦現在都還有在發展沒有叫它不要發展所以也要全力發展但即使全力發展仍然是不夠"},{"start":149.714,"end":170.426,"text":"我是這個意思因為你總不能夠發展到破壞環境除此之外你能夠在保護環境的情況之下盡量發展但是台灣受限地理條件因為三分之二是山地所以你再怎麼發展也是有限那風電的部分的話現在你也有提到說只能靠離岸風電"},{"start":172.155,"end":187.583,"text":"因為現在的很多陸基發電我相信很多地方政府也不會同意了即使同意但是因為受限於土地面積這個海域面積仍然是有其限制並不是能夠百分之百能夠達成我們的目標"},{"start":188.743,"end":205.722,"text":"是这个意思对但是我们仍然要全力发展当然我们都是以全力发展的前提之下在讨论这件事只是说因为它有很多限制所以在风电因为像我刚刚讲的风电一般是分成陆基风电跟离岸风电陆基风电现在我们已经看到"},{"start":206.403,"end":226.464,"text":"它很多是二三十年前當時設立的,目前都遭受到地方政府的一些或者當地人士的反對,因為它會造成低頻的噪音,所以陸基風電可能會受限。那您是說離岸風電,那離岸風電其實現在有的場域都差不多了啦,除非你要改變航道,才有可能增加離岸風電的那個場域。"},{"start":228.866,"end":250.886,"text":"那這個也有受限是我覺得大家要務實看這個問題所以院長因為您有這樣的一個認知所以你提出來的數據跟行政院是差非常多我們來看一下因為我解取了一下你的一些你的投影片你是有提到就是說台灣的能源是有分用電跟非用電嘛對不對用電大概是佔了百是佔多少"},{"start":251.607,"end":264.641,"text":"百分之五七好下一頁然後再來您有提到我們現在2025年8月份能源配比燃煤是39%燃氣49%再生能源11%所以現在我們主要還是火力發電大概佔了88%但關鍵是什麼呢關鍵我們來看一下2050年"},{"start":272.694,"end":298.603,"text":"因為剛剛我有提到2050年我們政府就告訴我們說60到70%是再生能源可是院長您這邊的預估2050年下一頁下一頁我們看一下2050年這個是你畫的這是你畫的圖嘛是的對畫的圖嘛是的你看現在您的預估是說到了2050年我們的用電應該是需要500兆瓦時"},{"start":299.991,"end":305.775,"text":"5000億度500的兆瓦斯就是5000億度我們講5000億度好了我們現在是2800億度是2023年到目前為止2800億度我們估計2050年至少5000億度可能會更高可能會更高5000億度甚至於到6000億度對不對"},{"start":322.068,"end":335.727,"text":"因為我們要發展AI數據中心沒錯所以換句話說2050年那時候我們的用電量是現在的兩倍以上對吧對沒錯嘛所以您就畫出了一個非常大的缺口"},{"start":337.152,"end":354.169,"text":"這個透明的部分是缺口那院長請問一下按照您的想法我們現在要用什麼發電方式我就在旁邊已經寫了第一個是去碳燃氫就是我這邊寫Methane Pyrolysis是去碳燃氫其中在一部分沒辦法做的就是加上這個CCS"},{"start":355.33,"end":372.378,"text":"就是碳捕捉除能然后过来发展地热再过来发展生殖能海洋能最后再可能我们必须要用新核能的技术或者是从国外进口这个氯氢或是氯氨到了2050年我们期待希望"},{"start":374.319,"end":401.6,"text":"那个时候会有这个绿清绿安的国际市场对 可是您您提的这个部分跟行政院告诉我们就不一样了因为行政院告诉我们说2050年60到70%再生能源主要是以风力跟光电为主但是院长这边的数据是告诉我们说风力跟风力加光电大概就是1000亿度大概是1000亿度那1000亿度就占5000亿度的"},{"start":402.507,"end":403.036,"text":"五分之一啊"},{"start":404.709,"end":433.491,"text":"然後如果要到6000億度的話就更小所以我不知道說中研院的研究為什麼跟行政院所標示出來的政策目標會差那麼大中研院的預算我們都全力支持但中研院除了學術研究之外應該務實的把它化為政策所以我們現在就發現說研究的成果跟政策在我們中華民國政府有很大的落差我不曉得說院長平常你們的研究跟行政院有暢通的管道嗎"},{"start":437.285,"end":456.839,"text":"首先再生能源也包含地熱我知道但是政院是說60到70再生能源裡面主力是火力跟風力跟方電首先委員講的沒錯我們是個研究單位行政院是政策制定跟執行單位兩邊雖然有溝通"},{"start":458.72,"end":473.219,"text":"但并不是说我们提出来的见解行政院就必须照单全收毕竟我们是学术研究单位我们从我们的角度出发我们认为是这样行政院可能有不同的考量"},{"start":473.88,"end":499.147,"text":"而且您提出来的数字假如我没记错应该两三年前第一次提出来的一个数字我想日后也会滚动式检讨包括我们自己的认知大家都会滚动式检讨现在也很难讲说是我们现在当然认为我们讲的是比较是可能的但是不排除说"},{"start":500.287,"end":527.114,"text":"行政院會變比較可能你的意思是這樣行政院跟中研院我當然是相信中研院所以我們希望中研院的數據可以成為政策目標那您剛剛提到兩年前對我是在行政院的網站上看到的那如果兩年都要做滾動式修正那你怎麼預估到205年的事2050年這個是這幾年這是25年後兩年都要不斷修正25年後那要修正10次"},{"start":527.834,"end":548.526,"text":"那現在提出來的任何數字有任何的參考意義嗎這是一個目標所以當然我們以現在我們當然就是要以現在的這個基礎來做討論嘛那就當然會我會希望說院長因為我們是相信你你在學術界大家都很尊敬但您講的話包括你去史丹佛的演講居然跟中華民國政府所講的落差這麼大"},{"start":550.177,"end":567.208,"text":"到底大家要相信誰這個我相信國人也會產生很大的困惑所以我希望說中研院的研究基礎可以成為政策的至少很重要的參考而不是落差這麼大差一點點我們不會拿出來講啦重點是差很大差很大"},{"start":568.15,"end":587.556,"text":"這個就有點離譜了我自己覺得就是政府的政策希望院長可以應該有一些管道可以跟政府建議一下透過貴大院好 那我讓你多講一點你現在要對行政院建議什麼還有時間嗎 有沒有建議一下"},{"start":588.778,"end":603.422,"text":"你把你的投影片或者是你把你的連結傳給行政院讓他們看一下我在行政院也報告過所以我們是從科學技術的角度來估算"},{"start":611.667,"end":620.68,"text":"另外要从政策面需要考量实际的社会的接受度等等的这些都需要考量"},{"start":622.328,"end":634.675,"text":"所以行政院有不同的考量方式這個我就不怎麼清楚了好 不清楚好 再一分鐘我跟請教一下因為賴總統在前兩天有說有一個333諾貝爾計畫希望30年內增加三位諾貝爾得主30年"},{"start":640.678,"end":658.458,"text":"那不禁又讓我想起二十年前當時政府也說要有一個那時候叫做宮頂計畫院長您知道嗎二十年前宮頂計畫所以要培養諾貝爾得主結果二十年之後我們的總統又講三十年這就五十年了耶"},{"start":659.309,"end":673.215,"text":"這就五十年了我不知道這是口號嗎還是每一個總統上來之後都要講二十年後 三十年後五十年後 一百年後我希望台灣會有諾貝爾得主這個到底是隨便喊喊還是院長你覺得可行"},{"start":674.724,"end":691.255,"text":"我這個不斷強調這個要非常努力那是個好的目標但是在這我跟這個委員分享一個諾貝爾獎得主在十年前寫了一篇文章他想怎麼樣得諾貝爾獎首先"},{"start":692.776,"end":712.635,"text":"不要去想它好好的做研究這最重要的不要去想諾貝爾獎重點是做好研究不是得諾貝爾獎這是那篇文章第一個要素講的跟這個委員分享那你覺得哪一個領域現在最有可能"},{"start":713.642,"end":741.965,"text":"一樣我們是要做好研究不要去想所以那你那既然不要去想為什麼要訂這種三十年後要三位為什麼要去想這件事那是國家的願景我們講的是這個每一個研究人員的態度每一個研究人員的態度不能每一天急急慌慌叫得諾貝爾獎那會生活得非常辛苦對啊所以我剛也是問您的願景嘛你的願景覺得哪個領域比較有可能有這個願景嘛那是每一個應該都想說我自己的研究是最有希望的"},{"start":743.026,"end":771.766,"text":"但是每一个人要重视自己做的研究把扎实的研究做好而不是想说要得什么奖谢谢因为我没有什么机会得诺贝尔奖所以你这个应该不是讲给我听的我只是想说这样的愿景答得到答不到了和平奖可能谢谢跟川普竞争我努力谢谢谢谢叶元之委员谢谢院长"}]}},{"id":"165431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610faced848cc33b5d8751c63fe2012470c75420834c22697b3aa2a884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:48:10 - 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政務委員請陳主委委員好主委好這個今天就是談這個馬太安西菸社府"},{"start":24.187,"end":48.964,"text":"這個應變中央協調匯報現在已經由這個主委來擔任這個執行秘書在今天的報告裡面也提到這個馬太安西安社府整治包括防範並執行減災監測及修築提防加固加高這個都是在特別條例裡面所明定的"},{"start":52.069,"end":78.13,"text":"這很遺憾的就在這一次的鳳凰颱風的非常非常遙遠的颱風然後帶來的這些蠔蟻就造成了這個萬隆鄉就是馬太安溪的另外一側上次是在光復鄉這次跑到萬隆鄉就因為這個堤防有這樣的一個"},{"start":81.123,"end":107.56,"text":"就是沒有設堤防的一個一流點就從那邊就這樣進來了所以這個部分經過一個多月之後仍然發生這樣的一個情形當然一直發生這樣的一個災情現在光復鄉鳳林鎮望榮鄉很多的鄉親都在反映最重要的還是在這個"},{"start":110.368,"end":135.334,"text":"馬太安西安社府的霸體要如何趕快處理這個源頭我們就今天談這個源頭上次我在總質詢的時候也有跟院長提過那因為當初時間的關係沒有辦法細談事實上本席我都已經認為說我知道的太晚"},{"start":136.857,"end":162.852,"text":"對於馬太安西岩社福這個大體我是在8月初才知道從媒體的報導才知道後來才發現原來水利以前的農委會林務及他們在109年就開始看到這個崩塌的現象有時候有流水有時候沒有"},{"start":164.246,"end":184.963,"text":"沒有水是這樣的一個情形我們就所以我8月初才知道所以我提了這個附帶決議當初是為了丹納斯颱風的特別條例我提出了這個附帶決議當初就是建議那個壩體一定要開花易洪道而事實上我後來也才發現這個106年農委會就已經有這樣的一個"},{"start":194.193,"end":208.29,"text":"对于阉色符的霸体应该要怎么去处理都有一个100厘米就已经有规定了所以我们现在这个亡羊补牢毕竟还是要去处理"},{"start":209.505,"end":235.588,"text":"所以農業部農業部在10月25號我有親自陪同行政院院長去提防那邊當時農業部的報告他們也要積極處理天然霸體的治理工程他們的方式就是要從光復的林道還有望龍的林道來去上山來去上山"},{"start":237.549,"end":262.797,"text":"望龍林道跟光復林道他們目前的規劃要把這個林道本來就有林道了本來就有林道要把這個林道透寬要讓這個挖土機能夠上山上山之後然後去挖這個壩體這個他們的規劃有方案一方案二"},{"start":264.926,"end":288.777,"text":"當然我上次跟這個院長建議現在也是向主委建議因為這樣子去是一種做法這個當然我不是專業人士當初我的建議就是說當初我8月22號開過學條會"},{"start":292.128,"end":316.98,"text":"開過緊急的協調會8月22號為什麼會開呢因為我那時候8月22號開協調會我是8月20號看到農業部的報那個消息多沒有下雨的話10月初就會一流所以我8月20號趕快發公文"},{"start":319.454,"end":346.406,"text":"也邀請了公共工程委員會災防辦還有農業部經濟部除了下游的堤防加固加高河床輸菌都提了當然上面的霸體也應該要想辦法處理當然時間以現在來看已經很晚了太晚了所以我的訊息說真的是太晚了所以我們現在還是要處理"},{"start":349.93,"end":357.719,"text":"還是要處理這個不曉得 主委有什麼樣的評估"},{"start":358.925,"end":385.561,"text":"好 謝謝委員 的確是委員在協調淡岸式風災特別條例的時候附帶決議因此特別預算才編了一億兩千萬針對堰塞湖的這個監測疏洪還有一些防災才有這個預算那目前是採取方案一啦從這個關戶林道上去兩百天所以我才說希望明年六月夏天之前"},{"start":386.882,"end":412.976,"text":"這個林道應該要改善完畢讓相關機具能夠上去但上去不是直接要挖那個壩體是作為監測或者是了解或者裝置監測設備或者是有什麼疏洪可以慢慢疏洪的是這樣子現在監測系統都有了監測系統都有了所以這個部分"},{"start":414.622,"end":437.858,"text":"如果只是這樣的話我就建議就不要了先讓人機具能夠到達才能夠決定採取什麼方案否則人用直升機吊掛下去或機械重機械根本沒辦法下去所以要領導先做好然後上去再評估用什麼方式好那個這樣我的建議還是我上次提過"},{"start":440.317,"end":465.255,"text":"過去都有案例所以一定要去不是單獨由農業部去處理我是建議公共工程委員會既然你們是一個這個條例的主管機關特別條例的主管機關你們要召集相關的部會包括國防部包括專業人士"},{"start":467.728,"end":490.087,"text":"然后去参考过去国际的案例直升机不是没有上去过内政部的直升机已经上去过了也把人放下去了所以这个部分何况啊挖土机他是可以拆解的挖土机"},{"start":490.953,"end":508.398,"text":"可以拆解上去然後再組裝的所以這個必須要專業人士我只能建議了我只能建議所以你們一定要去積極的召開這樣的一個專業的會議我只不過是做這樣的一個建議好不好好 謝謝好 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主委午安這個時代在進步啦那我們人啊這個在十一助選有各樣的一個東西也都會隨著時代去做更替嘛那我想這個在公共工程也一樣啦一定會隨著時代我們所採購的東西或者是我們的一些規格其實都會順應時代去做調整啦但是有一些新的東西這個要公務部門採用的時候總是會有一套流程比如說從我們的這個規劃"},{"start":39.079,"end":46.385,"text":"或者是驗證到未來的這個普遍的應用大概是怎樣的一個流程這樣子就是創新的產品或營養簡單就好"},{"start":60.822,"end":87.857,"text":"報告我們大概幾個方式第一個我們有那個平台創新的平台新的材料新的工法那可以到創新的平台讓各機關的了解然後去評估去使用那第二個是說我們在採購個案的採購上如何導入創新的這個新材料新工法我們可以是用因為現在工程大概都是用最有力標那有些還是用同胞"},{"start":88.457,"end":111.486,"text":"所以我想請教是我們是怎樣的一個驗證的一個過程是不是先有驗證這個東西它是可行的那它是可能符合我們的要求的時候那我們可能才會來做後續的一個擴充的一個採購原則上大概是這樣子嘛對不對是就是說工程要用新材料一定要滿足工程的本身的基本需求和安全"},{"start":111.946,"end":117.711,"text":"對 所以驗證非常重要才去做後續的擴充所以我今天其實想要用這個問題來引到這個潛艦國造我們國防的潛艦國造的一個問題來請教一下主委的一個意見因為我們現在原型艦海昆號就是在一個驗證的一個過程當中嘛那其實後面的7艘的擴充"},{"start":130.742,"end":135.625,"text":"的2加3加2的擴充件圓形件這個驗證之後那才會有2加3加2這可能比較符合我們的一個工程過去政府在做一個新的沒有嘗試過的東西所謂過必經的流程所以說現在我們的圓形件目前還沒有完成海測對不對還沒有完成海測也就是說就像剛剛講的一個創新的產品他可能還沒完成驗證那後續的推動那其實像國防部他已經"},{"start":159.117,"end":173.995,"text":"可能先有做先簽約的那你會建議怎麼樣去做後續的在我們公共工程的一個經驗那套用在國防採購上面的話他大概是要怎樣的驗證的一個完成之後你才會建議國防部去做後續的一個整體的一個推動"},{"start":176.868,"end":203.329,"text":"那這是國防部的攸關國家安全的採購啦那基本上對 它有特殊性啦這個我不否認那就是有一幫我們工程會的經驗尊重國防部的這個看法那另外這個並不是創新的產品啦潛艦這件事情這我們沒有做過我們台灣是落後了對 我們沒有做過所以我認為無論任何困難台灣都要努力有"},{"start":204.25,"end":226.723,"text":"自治前進的能力這是我作為一個國民的態度我們剛剛講到驗證這個部分你認為說怎樣的驗證叫做驗證完成符合我們的驗證的標準然後才可以建議去做後續的一個擴充以避免後續的擴充可能在一開始的設計上面可能是有缺陷的可能需要去調整"},{"start":228.884,"end":246.965,"text":"根據他的國防需求那麼他委託或者是採購的這些潛艦他一定有合約根據他的功能測試那如果合於他的需求那他們會去做決定在符合相關採購企業的方式之下所以主委不太敢回答"},{"start":248.407,"end":264.641,"text":"不是這個怎樣叫做驗證完怎樣可以去做這位公共工程委員會好像不太敢做這方面的一個解釋完全是國安部的需求所以以後各個機關也可以說是他們的需求然後自己去做一些標準我的理解好像會變成這樣子"},{"start":265.942,"end":269.024,"text":"沒關係我再問下一個問題反正這樣子鬼打牆你也不一定會願意說更多的話那您可能也有看到這個新聞潛艦的違約我們一天交艦的違約是17萬那我們的公共工程有例外情形有分兩種一種就是標準的可能"},{"start":286.061,"end":296.357,"text":"這個公道價譬如說延遲一天的話可能是契約金額的多少另外一個部分我們也可以制定嘛對不對國防部他可能制定那我們原本上我們採購法上面的違約的每日的違約金額大概是採購金額大概多少"},{"start":301.926,"end":321.02,"text":"前分之一但是他有個上限對原則上是前分之一嘛然後造價可能是上限的百分之二十但是他還要看說到底違約的部分是牽涉到對對他可能有國防有特殊性我們都認同啦那所以說國防部他有另外他去訂一個規定所以他是十七萬這十七萬大家都應該都聽過嘛那十七萬的部分他的"},{"start":321.981,"end":334.208,"text":"計算的一個基準就是說它的工程造價大概是用200億去算那17萬大概佔200億的多少你們有沒有算大概有沒有一個概念我們把這個萬去掉17萬扣掉一個萬就17200億去掉一個萬大概200萬所以就17比200萬大概是十萬分之一的日違約金"},{"start":351.223,"end":363.95,"text":"大概是這樣子我應該沒有算錯大概是十萬分之一那我們公共工程委員會可能有許多的一個經驗你們有沒有聽過有比十萬分之一還低的一個日違約金的一個罰款機制"},{"start":365.12,"end":390.553,"text":"有沒有聽過啦 有沒有聽過有沒有遇過沒有 我先確認有沒有遇過 有沒有聽過啦因為國方有國方的特殊性我們都認同他有可能依照他實際的需求去訂定相關的合約這都合法我們尊重我只想問我們公共工程委員會有沒有遇過比十萬分之一還要低的一個日違約懲罰金有或沒有而已啦"},{"start":392.352,"end":403.977,"text":"這個我們去了解一下啦你也不確定有沒有但是現在想不起來有比十萬分之一低嗎台湾要做潛艦所有人都應該樂觀其成應該客服任何困難甚至排除任何法規的"},{"start":413.321,"end":425.586,"text":"我們也要督促廠商因為有時效性 國防有時效性所以我們要督促廠商他要盡快的完成交件但是我們不要輕易說不繼續做自製潛艦所以我的意思就是說我們這樣子的違約金讓廠商有沒有辦法積極要去哪裡買潛艦來"},{"start":429.887,"end":446.961,"text":"防衛台灣的安全主委你扯遠了齁 你扯遠了我們的目標一樣我們就直接講核心問題我們的目標是希望廠商積極是希望台灣自治潛艦還是說國防部不要自治潛艦所以說海昆號我們支持啊所以希望的話就要克服任何困難"},{"start":447.581,"end":466.349,"text":"對所以說我們希望廠商積極的來做嘛對不對對所以我們公司的立場是尊重國防部的財政國防部應該有他一些積極的來有些機密廠商積極的完成合約競速的交界是我們共同的目標對不對是吧主委也希望盡快交界嘛"},{"start":467.554,"end":486.899,"text":"我們希望滿足國防部的需求不會說不會 不要吧 應該是要吧我們希望都盡快交件 你剛剛問我希望國防制度 我答應你 我希望啊當然按照合約 希望交件 能夠如期完成站在一個國民的角度 你應該也希望盡快交件吧我們希望趕快擁有潛艦 有足夠的潛艦所以對於這個國防的問題啊對這個廠商 你覺得有沒有讓他有壓迫性 希望他盡快的來交件"},{"start":494.941,"end":510.576,"text":"這很嚴肅的問題我們都是台灣國民我們希望台灣的國防部有這樣的能力所以任何困難我們都會站在協助讓他能夠完成的角度但我們不希望廠商一直拖嘛對不對拖不拖是國防部跟廠商的約定"},{"start":510.896,"end":516.601,"text":"所以說現在各個機關都可以這樣子講不同機關是國防部這個前件的問題太嚴肅了所以我就請教一個主委我請教主委10萬分之一的日的違約金你認為對於廠商去競速的交件這件事情你認為能不能構成他的壓力這個是國防部自己的決定"},{"start":537.179,"end":548.685,"text":"國防部他站在什麼角度什麼約定那如果認為合以他的採購契約那國防部當然可以這樣做你難道希望滑到滑到這個廠商倒掉沒有人希望廠商倒我們必須很嚴肅的跟你對談對不對說這個問題太嚴肅了"},{"start":554.548,"end":581.581,"text":"所以我們希望他早一點 那我就因為公主委你的經驗豐富嘛所以來請教一下國防有特殊性然後當然我們也是希望說依照其他的經驗來看看怎樣的一個機制讓廠商他有壓力競速滿足我們國人對國防以及國防部的要求那所以說請教這十萬分之一的違約金的機制對於對廠商來說有沒有壓力啦這可能你們或許有其他的其他案例你們覺得他他他"},{"start":582.761,"end":609.31,"text":"這樣的機制對廠商有壓力你們也可以說哪個案子也是這樣子嘛他也達到很好的效果我們也可以舉例嘛對不對因為他的採購的本質是帶有研發性質在外國叫做APA的採購那APA的採購基本上面他有他的特殊性不單單只是我們都承認所以他會算在公企裡面所以他必須去衡量整個他旅業的可能性他旅業的這個風險等等所以他是依照這些相關的因素去"},{"start":610.451,"end":629.108,"text":"我們都理解啦好啦我就尊重主席啦時間到了那我只是希望說國防採購大家支持但是也希望說有時候我們工程會也可以提出一些建議怎麼樣子讓這個採購案能夠更符合我們國防如期如值的交件應該是大家共同的目標就這樣的一個目的而已好以上謝謝謝謝廖先生"}]}},{"id":"165427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facec9ee7148fa41f93f63fe2012470c75420834c22697b3aa2a3e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:09:21 - 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有請我們陳主委 請陳主委委員好 主委早 主委辛苦因為我知道你前陣子常常跑台南後面又到花蓮去救災的一個工作 很辛苦的那昨天這個宜蘭也有幾個鄉鎮面臨這個好雨的情形主委有沒有接到通知 還要接完沒有"},{"start":31.401,"end":47.418,"text":"我昨天在宜蘭大概有幾個鄉鎮蘇澳東山羅東五結還有西北的壯圍大概比較靠海的地區就是有些災情但是嚴重程度不一"},{"start":49.264,"end":75.554,"text":"主委我想這個我從去年一直都有在行政院開會的時候還有包含我們自己委員會都有特別提到我們現在這個極端氣候的一個嚴峻的一個挑戰那尤其我們現在這個好雨還有這個颱風的這個侵襲都不可避免但是我們現在在整個這個不管是中央的指揮體系還是地方的一個救災系統我都覺得這個界面上面還是有存在一些問題存在"},{"start":76.455,"end":81.37,"text":"主委自己從台南跟花蓮這個救災裡面有沒有發現什麼樣的問題需要解決"},{"start":83.052,"end":110.365,"text":"目前就災害應變中心來講主責的是內政部行政院也有災防辦 災防辦公室的確面對各式各樣的災害天然災害或者是說一些像化學工廠的大爆炸或者是氣爆之類各式各樣的災害如果說有一個機制"},{"start":111.465,"end":119.649,"text":"或機構專責統合各種災害應變或搶災或者是當作這個災害應變中心的一個專責的比較專責的機構我想也是可以評估的"},{"start":130.226,"end":152.456,"text":"主委我因為我自己過去也在屏東縣政府服務過那我們那時候也常常會有一些防災演練當然剛剛主委講的我們這個災害的這個類型都大不相同但是我們是期待從中央到地方應該是緊密合作分工負責把這個災難能夠盡快把它處理掉讓我們的傷亡降到最低我想這是大家共同努力的一個目標"},{"start":155.077,"end":162.554,"text":"各式各樣的災害那除了中央會成立應變中心之外基本上就是各式各樣災害縣市政府地方"},{"start":163.564,"end":191.757,"text":"也是這個災害應變的指揮官 那個縣長 縣長或市長就是指揮官各式各樣的災害只要發生在這個轄區之內他都應該主動來救災來應變這個是我們既有的災害防救法那麼體系是非常清楚主委所以我一直提出說我們應該有沒有考慮要成立一個防災部這個尤其面臨現在複合型的一個災害日趨頻繁 部長"},{"start":193.308,"end":214.683,"text":"那個主委願意支持這樣的一個想法嗎要重要是大院要支持這個要成立一個部就可能這個原額預算分配或者是說部會的的數目那個都必須調整這是大事情那當然如果有這樣這個"},{"start":216.317,"end":230.725,"text":"防災部是不錯啦我個人是傾向支持不過這個是一個必須茶葉政黨能夠協商都同意才有可能這個主委改天有機會我們也一起來努力看看"},{"start":231.886,"end":259.515,"text":"主委那另外我想這個剛剛我們也特別提到公共工程流標的一個問題嚴重性那我想我們也檢視了一些去年各單位的一個工程類的一個採購的案件其中廢標兩次以上的比例勞動部有高達30%以上的案件都流標兩次那我們屏東縣政府也有一部分案件都流標那我想這個部分每次在委員會主委也是都會問這個問題主委那目前有沒有比較積極的一個做法"},{"start":261.175,"end":289.533,"text":"目前就是我們的政府採購法已經預告會修正會刪除第一次決標的時候要有三家才能夠決的這樣的限制啦那當然也會同時有一些配套措施要求機關讓預算通過之後就必須予以公告那電子採購等等讓他更透明讓所有有興趣的產商更早知道有相關的配套"},{"start":291.894,"end":316.399,"text":"我們都樂見你們的努力方向但是現在因為我們也碰到我們很多的機關包含這個營建 營造廠商整個都很困擾的事實上真的整個預算編列上面你們有你們的這個單位有單位的想法但是就業者來講他們工作量現在也很多他們不是不幫忙是真的有些有困難度那這樣的一個困境我們要怎麼樣去落實去解決"},{"start":318.105,"end":342.022,"text":"副主委也提到就是物價或預算編列那工程會站在一些列管公共工程的基本設計審查的機關那包括費用那現在呢很多公共建設都本身預算裡面就有編的物條那剛才有提到說工期太長那太長那整個"},{"start":343.345,"end":367.613,"text":"物價就會波動更大嘛所以將來我們公共工程會在審查這個基本設計的時候應該也要詳細的看他這個物條的比例跟他的工期是否合理的對應關係啦如果說工期很長你的物條編的很少那可能我們必須請他應該在在比較合適的來編列這個是"},{"start":369.594,"end":386.389,"text":"物價的問題那缺工也是個問題因為我們現在移工申請也不是那麼百分之百都能夠符合業者的需求另外就是三次這個三家以上這部分也是一個問題那我們會盡量來克服"},{"start":389.071,"end":405.772,"text":"主委我想我還是要再提醒有一個很嚴重的一個問題現在全國這個營建土石那個營建剩餘土石方這個非法棄置甚至到目前為止這個土質廠沒辦法去承受這個問題也造成很多的公共工程流標不敢標主委有沒有注意到這個問題"},{"start":407.625,"end":433.941,"text":"公共工程不敢標很多建商不敢蓋房子那這一部分我認為銀件剩餘土石方或銀件廢棄物我剛剛提到在施工現場就要分類了把一些可燃的廢棄物分類出來其他比較乾淨的銀件剩餘土方或者是磚瓦這一類這一類都可以再利用他並不是什麼化工廠的有毒的廢棄物"},{"start":435.683,"end":453.704,"text":"廢棄物本身都可以再利用所以我們社會上來看這個銀件土方的時候應該不要那麼負面的去看他不是說一定要拋到太空去他一定要有個去處嘛所以比較務實的他應該應用在可以應用在天海"},{"start":455.543,"end":479.996,"text":"或者是有些地區本身就空洞了經過縣市政府核定他就可以去填他並不是說會造成土地這個受影響的一些化學的廢棄物所以這部分呢是應該這樣來看待不要說一碰到問題所有人說這個是廢棄物一定要去化或一定要"},{"start":480.876,"end":495.557,"text":"拿到哪裡去 本身在當他申請這個建造的時候我們都要求廠商就要提出這個營建廢棄物的去化的計畫審核通過之後才能動工嘛"},{"start":496.218,"end":520.789,"text":"等到他蓋好房子要拿使用執照的時候也必須審核他是不是有如實按照這個去化的計畫來進行那同時也監視車輛都有設這個GPS來管制所以我們認為營建土方的問題我們要加強力道來去化不管是再利用還是填海那個都應該"},{"start":522.129,"end":543.395,"text":"國人都應該正面來看到看待這個問題因為你工程在進行不可能沒有這些營建剩餘土方或營建剩餘的這些磚瓦的廢棄物主委我想今天我特別提出這個問題就是發現我們目前這個很多坊間的公共工程包含剛主委講的各自的健康都面臨這樣的一個困境"},{"start":544.235,"end":567.044,"text":"那我們沒有趕快把標準定出來SOP執行定出來這後面真的會越來越慘你覺得土資廠根本他不敢收他也收不了 他吃不下陳委員報告 基本上這個還是各縣市政府要想辦法該縣市他要有一些土資廠投進去設置要這些量他要有一些計畫那"},{"start":571.055,"end":591.338,"text":"只要縣市政府 每個縣市政府他都有籌備這樣的去處 佔置或再利用這個問題就比較可以解決主委我也擔心以後我們屏東包含我們未來有高鐵有捷運這些重大工程 告訴你這都影響到後面的發包的一個問題主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face59a7ab60d9034949fa47f864c5dfb45a0834c22697b3aa2ad2e2cafc87676f955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:54:15 - 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主委長吉林係數是國際間最常用來衡量財富分配比較均衡程度的統計指標產生部最新公布的資料台灣112年每戶吉林係數是0.339每年每人係數是0.272"},{"start":42.153,"end":59.39,"text":"但這個數據保持一個懷疑的態度110年主計總數公布的數據台灣吉尼系數是0.606那短短的兩三年這個系數突然縮小到0.339根本是不可能的"},{"start":59.91,"end":74.845,"text":"那主席長還有部長可不可以分別跟我們說明一下你們各自的算法是怎麼算不然為什麼差距這麼大無法理解是部長先相關的數據財政部長基本上都是依據主席總書的公告因為這是有主席總書的權責不好意思再說一下"},{"start":78.55,"end":93.806,"text":"也就是說相關的數據這些所得都是我們是根據主計總處這邊所公布的資料那在8月15號的時候他也相關也有相關的公告我想這個部分跟委員做這樣的一個說明好那請主席講"},{"start":95.189,"end":121.606,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛您講的那個0.606是屬於財富的部分有包括家庭財富所得的部分那這個部分是我們每個家戶所得的一個分配情形113年度的經理係數是0.341加每戶的部分那每人的部分是0.277這個部分那如果說是五等分的差別倍數就是3.92這個部分"},{"start":123.667,"end":150.925,"text":"不是 那兩者就是說剛剛部長你說是依照主席總書提供的資料去做這個計算那你要清楚的說明啊不然說民眾看到這些數據誤以為說我國的貧富差距會有改善事實上沒有改善嘛 對不對從75倍到150倍貧富差距那麼大然後用這樣子的一個數據沒有清楚的說明造成誤解那透明的數據解釋對於提高民眾的信任跟理解是非常重要的好不好 部長"},{"start":151.345,"end":180.607,"text":"好的 我想我們可以再做進一步的說明謝謝委員長好 部長你先請回部長先請回那請國發會副主委主席不好意思 有請好 請高副主委主席長 我再請教主席長是1130我國薪水佔GDP比重是多少那還有國發會副主委你怎麼定義低薪勞工這兩個請那個主席長先回應"},{"start":185.664,"end":196.769,"text":"那個我說主席長是請教你說薪水佔GDP的比重是多少這個部分薪水佔GDP的比重這個部分好像43%左右確實的數據是多少43%左右"},{"start":210.526,"end":229.153,"text":"從1990年的百分之我們薪資佔GDP的比例這個部分薪資佔GDP的比例到底是多少我們現在是用受雇報酬佔GDP的部分是百分之40.3"},{"start":235.563,"end":243.353,"text":"那好那妳剛剛說我國經常性薪資中位數是多少3.8萬是不是這個是在9月份的時候是3萬8啦3萬8"},{"start":245.765,"end":270.811,"text":"有一些余數你沒有講啦就是37.多37274因為這是111年的113年度的那我們的部分現在到9月份平均是47000啦1到9月的平均是47000然後他的中位是38000左右那低於這個低於平均數的有多少佔了多少70%有69點多將近七成啦"},{"start":273.692,"end":290.346,"text":"好 所以這個代表說勞動者所得未能隨著經濟成長同步增長對不對是不是這樣子但是我們中位數也是到38000也是到38000中位數就是表示有50以上的那個部分"},{"start":291.215,"end":307.176,"text":"所以說反映出這個收入分配的不均台灣薪資成長未能有效反映出生產力的提升造成收入集中在少數的部分超過七成的壽星的這些階級它是低薪的比中位數低 對不對"},{"start":307.657,"end":330.725,"text":"因為他有一部分就是說基層勞動者他的這個收入收入停滯增長停滯不是收入停滯加劇的這個貧富差距對不對其實貧富差距算跟各國比起來我們算也不是很高的部分不是很高是多高還不夠低"},{"start":333.411,"end":355.175,"text":"華國啊 日本啊 還有德國啊我們用吉尼係數來看的話是0.606嘛不是 那我問你喔 那我問你主委總長主委長 3萬8是否足以支撐民眾的基本生活夠不夠 到底夠不夠3萬8是中位數啦這樣子 就看你 你的"},{"start":356.548,"end":380.463,"text":"對嘛 所以就是每個這個都有不同的環境還有不同的所在地還有這些支出都不同還有現在這個通膨所以到底夠不夠那我想就是說有很大的進步空間嘛不是在這邊大家在這邊爭執我們要的是說怎麼樣來處理薪資成長跟經濟結構之間的這個矛盾問題要如何來解決嘛 對不對"},{"start":381.817,"end":400.503,"text":"在衛福部方面他也有針對中低收入戶的部分有特別給予給他一些的輔助還有低薪的部分我們有保障基本工資所以這個部分還有我們也鼓勵企業加薪這些措施等等都是在提升我們整個薪資的一個水平這個好了 主席長妳請回請國發會"},{"start":409.591,"end":425.21,"text":"好 副主委經濟成長模式從勞力密集走向資本化 知識化那貧富差距惡化是一個我們看到的結果所以所得從分配是指政府透過稅收還有透過社會福利支出等方式"},{"start":426.691,"end":454.767,"text":"例如房屋津貼還有育兒津貼中低收入補助或長照支出但是我們台灣的這個製衡機制這個不完備以上市貴高階主管跟基層這個倍數的持續擴張來擴大比例所以目前沒有辦法避免那請問國發會針對這一類的現象有什麼具體的政策或調整這種製衡不平等的一個收入分配有什麼辦法"},{"start":456.03,"end":468.006,"text":"我想這個問題可能要從多元併進的方式我們今天報告裡面也有講到除了用租稅的這些手段還有一個社福的支出的平衡以外我想產業結構的均衡發展也非常的重要"},{"start":471.371,"end":488.37,"text":"然後薪資的薪資水準鼓勵企業提升薪資水準願意把經濟成長的成果分享給員工也很重要所以我們目前政府事實上是四個面向齊頭併進的方式我們希望可以達到我們剛剛委員希望達到的目標"},{"start":489.151,"end":511.116,"text":"對啦 我也建議國發會就考慮加大對這些技術教育跟技能訓練這個部分然後尤其在對於中小企業的這些領域製造更多高薪的機會那希望國發會可以在更注重這方面的發展好不好好 是的 謝謝委員主席有請衛福部衛福部 呂次長"},{"start":522.351,"end":525.195,"text":"委員你好次長好委員好這個衛福部好像很狀況外"},{"start":537.324,"end":561.47,"text":"我們的主題是要縮短貧富差距但是衛福部還提出健保補充 保費調整要將利息 股息 租金等補充保費要增加然後把現行的每月結算改為年度計算那一年累計超過兩萬就要收取然後發現方向不對就在當日七個小時之內就匆匆忙忙的這樣子的急轉彎喊卡"},{"start":562.95,"end":589.228,"text":"是因為被這個政策本身就有問題還是受到什麼樣的一個責難包委員我們現在目前都會來多方來廣正各方意見當初在構思的時候在討論的時候不是有請教了這個專家學者嗎是哪一位專家包委員因為我們這個是有關於財務方面有關健保的部分我想其實平常我們大概都會有沒有徵詢金管會當初"},{"start":591.724,"end":608.894,"text":"不過委員因為這不是我負責的業務啦我負責社會福利這是兩對啦所以說儘管會作為中華民國這個掌管所有投資人相關事務的機構但是你們好像沒有詢問嘛我問過主委啦他說沒有不知道看報才知道的 對吧"},{"start":611.693,"end":627.083,"text":"所以說在制定政策應該要更謹慎更嚴謹不然的話我想簽一法動全身的這樣子的一個政策你只要一條掌小資族的錢你們也要搶"},{"start":627.924,"end":644.655,"text":"那導致我們很多民眾會把這些資金全部都移轉到另外的一個投資或者是國外那就連這些房價什麼的也會跟著漲對不對那簽一法動全身所以我們看到衛福部"},{"start":645.835,"end":664.489,"text":"這樣子的一個草率的行為然後就當日七個小時之內就被打槍我想這部分我們不樂意我們不想再看到這樣的情況好不好 請衛福部好好檢討 謝謝非常感謝委員 謝謝謝謝顏委員接下來我們請葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"165419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facee2987f242056d576e72a0011d4bca9f90834c22697b3aa2a3c1fa2322f5407415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:56:12 - 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請廖院長教委員好院長您好 幾個問題請教院長就是說我們全年度的預算規模才140億140億你要三大的這個學組然後24個研究所 9個研究中心因為預算的多寡牽涉到一個國家研究的成果跟研究能量以及研究的品質您就任院長多久的時間"},{"start":30.103,"end":47.338,"text":"您就任院長多久時間九年又大概八個月吧我能不能說出你心中的這個想法你一直覺得這個預算不夠對不對預算永遠是不夠的所以你要去你知道問題要解決問題啊"},{"start":49.584,"end":75.949,"text":"你知道問題要跟院長跟總統報告就是說國家的科學能量不管是生命科學或者是數理或者人文這都是等量 奇怪研究能量增加國家的力國家的競爭力才會強大是 我們現在最大的問題是要跟大院溝通最主要是在委員會審查之後我們最大的問題是到這個"},{"start":78.57,"end":96.296,"text":"院會通山的部分委員會中心主義應該委員會通過的就不應該在草野市要又再砍一次這個沒有這個道理那我們在委員會審查就白審了我們認真的看預算書連你們每項計畫我都注意看雖然我不是本委員會"},{"start":98.477,"end":127.484,"text":"所以這邊大家討論結果通過了預算送出去委員會你除非有新的事項或者是重大的這個計畫變更你在這個235你在協商的時候才提出來你一個黨團一個人就推翻所有這個委員會的這個相關的討論相關的結論這不是民主國家國會該有的常態我在講誰你現在知道吧大家都知道"},{"start":129.798,"end":154.507,"text":"所以這個立法院是要先改革所以立法院的這個 大家都點頭對不對大家都同意嘛 全國人都同意哪有立法院委員會轟過了預算然後呢 不分清容容照白害不識本委員會的代表一個黨團就隨便一個提案 他提案什麼都還不知道就砍掉了 就刪掉了 就凍結了莫名其妙 完全沒有理性 完全沒有科學完全一點都不務實"},{"start":159.039,"end":185.621,"text":"大家知道我在講什麼嗎好了 這個我們繼續努力國家有問題大家要面對問題要解決問題解決問題要有智慧要有耐心好 請教幾位請教幾個第二個問題就是說我們研究主題要與時俱進就是說我過去是一個反核是反對核能那我現在慢慢接受未來新一代的核能技術"},{"start":186.69,"end":200.078,"text":"不要說合融核目前的合融核大概要五六十年了那SMR是不是有可行我在返回核能的路上我很掙扎我說一個反對核能要返回核能我是很掙扎"},{"start":201.96,"end":220.88,"text":"但是如果我相信科學我相信技術如果能確保安全然後確保這個核廢料可以處理全面的共識我希望未來可以朝向SMR甚至核融合那核融合是一個先進階段的技術這個我希望說中研院能夠針對核融合有更多的研究"},{"start":224.171,"end":242.827,"text":"合融合是非常特殊的他所需要的投入的经费是非常庞大的可能是中央医院整体经费的好几倍日本也这样子认识但是他们还是做啊那结合民进的力量假如全民政府有这个决心我们是早做比晚做好"},{"start":243.947,"end":266.526,"text":"完作比不作這個是可以討論的因為合龍河未來的發展模式可能是有一些國家發展出來之後商轉然後我們得利於它的商轉不見得是每個國家我們要投入基礎研究比如說美日他們是有研究基礎未來他們研究基礎在應用層面上面我們可以跟他們合作這個意思嗎"},{"start":268.775,"end":295.973,"text":"如果这样子我也同意不用花那么多成本是我们要找我们能够贡献的部分譬如说在材料方面做合融合跟做SMR都有材料方面的一些需要改进的地方是不是我们从材料方面我知道日本已经投入了二三十年一二十年我希望说也可以有更多的学者能够跟日本的合融合方面的研究机构或者专家有更多的讨论跟合作"},{"start":296.853,"end":316.16,"text":"這要看我們的方向這不一定是對我們最有利的方向這個可能是這個因為這個台灣跟中文研究的量能畢竟沒有辦法跟141是太少了如果加300億到500億我覺得也還不夠"},{"start":320.649,"end":348.879,"text":"好 因為時間跟他們有關係最後一個問題這個關於人文及社會科學主要有研究的主題我想請教研究主題是怎麼設定的我對你們研究的幾個成果我覺得非常有興趣而且非常有意思第十一項目它的研究主題是男人過多 壽命過短男性性別比例偏高對死亡率的影響這個研究有興趣"},{"start":351.554,"end":369.268,"text":"這個我可能要跟貴院來拜讀一下男人過多 壽命過短男人多的話 壽命會比較短這個可能我要看一下資料這個是你們第41頁第30個研究主題研究什麼 浪拳拳算數滾桃啦"},{"start":377.412,"end":406.504,"text":"全權啊讓全權算數國會肢體衝突的個人邏輯哇 這有意思喔這跟我們有關國會肢體衝突的個人邏輯這當中一個研究題目非常有興趣非常有意思我想拜讀一下如果兩位這個學者專家我再去跟他們討論一下這個發生肢體衝突的個人邏輯還是政黨邏輯還是政治文化"},{"start":407.779,"end":428.036,"text":"還是個人的不是牽涉到邏輯講邏輯可能是個人品性操守的問題這兩個主題再請中央醫院師傅可以提供給我參考一下我來研究一下拜讀一下好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志偉委員請院長回座"}]}},{"id":"165433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face23f0aebd2aa4c88c63fe2012470c75420834c22697b3aa2a884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:04:50 - 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主席請陳主委"},{"start":10.119,"end":24.007,"text":"主委好 主委今天有幾個問題要向您來就教那首先我們先來看到前瞻基礎建設第五期的特別預算執行率那根據工程會最新的督導報告第五期的前瞻特別預算執行率從8.76%提升到22.48%那雖然成長了13.72%"},{"start":31.091,"end":51.719,"text":"可是距離年底的目標你們定的95%仍然是差到72.5%那也就是說從9月從9月的匯報到年底只剩3個月10月11月12月那等於說每個月要拉高24%的進度主委您認為這樣是真的可以達到嗎請那個公管處處長來跟你說明"},{"start":59.035,"end":76.747,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那因為前瞻今年預算通過比較晚不過各個部會都在努力中那我們大概有盤整到年底他們可以執行的達成率大概也可以接近到九成以上這個我們也要求各部會來努力來執行以上"},{"start":77.757,"end":98.129,"text":"所以是確定在實際工程現場24%是每個月24%是可以達到的嗎因為工程的他的特性是到年底的時候他會比較大部分的一個付款的一個動作那其他的他的工作期限是到年底的時候他會他的執行的部分會比較多因為這個會牽涉到整個"},{"start":99.13,"end":127.339,"text":"因為在這個會議 你們雖然有宣布年底可以達標可是沒有說明各個計劃的進度落差你們有公布瓶頸的清單嗎我們有針對比較落後的一個工程來做列管然後追蹤 來加速他們的執行因為本期看到很多標案都還在審查設計預算也還沒有核定那代表這個執行率很可能只是帳面的數字所以不是實際的開工或是完工"},{"start":128.079,"end":146.919,"text":"基本上假設有些是沒辦法在年底之前完成的話他們會以往自己移到別的執行率比較高的工程來執行那因為前瞻的部分因為到年底就會結束那因為今年那你們現在算的這個達成率是根據核銷金額算的還是實際的開工進度"},{"start":147.444,"end":165.051,"text":"依照它實際的執行的進度來去做一個預估來所以是一個預估嗎那你們可不可以在下一次會議的時候公佈各項前瞻計畫它的實際的工程進度對照表因為本期看到你們都只有文字紀錄沒有錯吧目前你們有一個像是儀表版可以來做參照嗎可以 這個可以"},{"start":165.911,"end":188.206,"text":"你們可以來做大碼可以那就請在下一次的會議希望你們可以公佈好主委本席認為你們的工程的效率不只有進度問題還有透明度的問題舉例因為現在缺乏分享公開看不到哪一些計畫它是執行順利跟哪一些落後還是您剛才這邊有提到都可以看得到嗎"},{"start":192.395,"end":216.139,"text":"跟回補充報告 因為基本上我們會做一個大的一個統計那假設針對比較落後指標的工程我們也會在我們的每月的督導匯報去做一個提醒那因為這個 你們是每個月還是每一季我們每個月的督導匯報我們都會做一些列管跟提醒那這些資料當然委員家有需要我們都會提供給委員"},{"start":216.55,"end":235.076,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那繼續我們來看到今天也有很多委員提到就是流標的問題那這幾年公共工程流標的情況越來越多那五年平均每年有4500件那它佔全部標案的一成那大型的建案中那流標超過三次的也有35%"},{"start":236.736,"end":252.037,"text":"那主要原因本席有看到營建業他們工會的調查是因為預算落後市場的行情那也有因為勞務跟材料上漲那契約是缺乏彈性的那再來還有驗收還有付款的期程過長現金壓力是比較高的嘛"},{"start":252.558,"end":269.541,"text":"那以桃園的台鐵都會區捷運化的地下化工程為例有三個標案CJ11還有14 15嘛到現在都還沒有發包就是最明顯的例子那主委您知道今年截止那全國有多少標案是有多少標案是留保的請相關主管來說明詳細的數字"},{"start":285.561,"end":293.03,"text":"跟委員報告那我們現在這個有流標的有流標過的案件喔那一年"},{"start":298.871,"end":328.303,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們目前統計順利決標是90%那所以倒過來是10%左右是沒有辦法順利發報 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去年工程 公共工程平均延誤的天數是92天那主要的原因 場地障礙跟地質不明 它是排在前兩名的那現行的地質調查規範 你們就只看只看研盤跟結構安全嘛 那沒有納入地底廢棄物前世的項目 也沒有要求主管機關來針對地底來進行評估 或是繳交完整的環境報告那本席想要問"},{"start":548.254,"end":571.507,"text":"全國目前有多少工程因為地理廢棄物然後造成預算增加或是延誤工期主委您有講過嗎就是應該是當年大量的棄置那我想這個主管機關他在決定路線或決定場域的時候他們會進行必要的評估啦至於他有沒有詳細到說"},{"start":573.408,"end":594.151,"text":"裡面有也許有文資文資也有可能或者有那麼多廢棄物我想這個不一定每個每個這個採購機關他都做這麼詳盡的調查那當然這個預算會增加預算增加那我想採購機關那必要的時候應該跟承攬的廠商做一些變更"},{"start":594.997,"end":622.075,"text":"是那本來是希望之後可以把它納入啊就是就是工程要進行之前先做地底下面的就是轉有一個有一個是專探嗎有一個程序專探希望可以把它納入好嗎跟文報告就是說他基本上要看他工程的總列因為如果我們如果前面性的話恐怕會全面因為時間的關係不過我們就可以針對針對個案來看好不好OK好謝謝好謝謝邱若驊"}]}},{"id":"165432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165432","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face633cea62909c6f6263fe2012470c75420834c22697b3aa2a884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:54:36 - 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是否還有能夠留用"},{"start":189.298,"end":213.361,"text":"的空間啦就是其他部位有沒有執行沒有辦法不必執行那麼多有沒有能夠留用的空間啦這部分我這個會後我再來了解希望主委就是特別關照啦因為這個正常的十一住行都可以安排的情況之下那當然是基本需求但是連十一住行都沒有辦法安排的時候這個就必須優先處理"},{"start":214.802,"end":241.931,"text":"那災區這裡其實幾乎是他們要通外道這基本需求都還沒達到所以這個部分請就是說我們在中央的角度能夠看到全國真的是十一住行都沒有辦法料理的完整的地方是不是可以優先關注或者是多加注經費來協助直接跟高雄市政府聯絡讓你評估我剛才講的這個整個特別預算的執行情形有沒有空間可以留用到這裡來"},{"start":243.232,"end":272.325,"text":"謝謝主委那再來就是說我們的高雄重大建設還有國道7號還有高雄機場那也謝謝主委對我們國道7號很重視那還率隊親自下去跟我們來加強國道7號那原則上這個照程序動工這個不知道主委有沒有keep這個進度就是我們115年初就是明年的很快那這個進度是不是工程會有注意到"},{"start":277.16,"end":298.092,"text":"跟委員報告我想那個國道7號這個是我們不管是智捷委員還是我們主席昆哲委員都長期在關心推動那這個基本設計都已經確定了那現在那個高工局也正在準備發包作業當中那已經上網了那總共會是未來會有6個工程標加一個基電整合標"},{"start":299.053,"end":316.281,"text":"那他現在明年初動工他們在拚今年年底前先把前面的第一標就是有第幾標就是靠近小港那邊先完成發包那如果順利今年能夠發包的話他明年就是要從明年能夠來動工明年初希望有機會動工是 謝謝"},{"start":317.962,"end":343.163,"text":"那另外還有 主委 這個庚副主委這個高雄機場的擴建這個問題其實蠻大的啦就是說我們現在桃園第三寒夏的工人大概都集中在那裡那大概第三寒夏的北半的對 就是北部 北半部會先完成嘛那在今年底可以完成"},{"start":344.111,"end":367.797,"text":"那明年是不是就說還要等這個藍登基郎廳做完然後這些工人才有機會移世高雄他北登基郎廳計畫是年底看能不能適應應啦後續還有藍登基郎廳主體的工程他恐怕還有一點時間那這裡面他是"},{"start":368.797,"end":372.321,"text":"因為那邊其實也有人在反映就是移工的確不足啦"},{"start":390.163,"end":405.039,"text":"那當然這個部分這是國家政策的問題那是不是工程會能夠幫忙協調如果說高雄機場到時候開始施工的時候有需要移工我們可以工程會可以協助專案來跟大東部來申請"},{"start":406.431,"end":430.941,"text":"好 這個部分我是希望說那個工程會能夠這個我們有全力可循啦多多協助啦 因為這個工人跟我現在知道的訊息是這樣啦就是北登基廊道這邊做完做南登基廊道這邊做完才有辦法移植高雄對 才有辦法移植高雄嘛所以如果這些人都還沒做完我可能高雄的進度就會被delay到"},{"start":432.045,"end":439.394,"text":"那高雄那邊有沒有可能就是先有機會不管是專案還是怎麼樣就是那邊可以有機會先動工"},{"start":440.768,"end":469.355,"text":"所以他就是看哪一個營造廠得標他會提出申請那工程會協助他就重新申請那些額度如果開工了那這個第三航廈還沒有完成那當然高雄機場那邊可以先進一些移工先動對 OK這個再拜託主委幫忙因為我們高雄如果要等到第三航廈都做好才來動高雄那時間又可能會被delay到所以這個部分再拜託主委"},{"start":469.955,"end":487.018,"text":"那統而言之就是說我希望說再一次呼籲就是說其實我們南高屏生活圈你包括有很多公共的建設都應該一起思考像北北基島它現在這個大生活圈其實很多都會互通的蠻好的那南高屏很多的交通建設要走在前面"},{"start":487.979,"end":506.896,"text":"所以也謝謝其實我們主委跟我們的交通部其實這部分也協助的蠻多的啦就是說包括我們的捷運將來有沒有機會北接台南 南接台東 南接屏東那包括我們的國道現在在拓寬也謝謝主委大家的幫忙"},{"start":507.617,"end":529.485,"text":"那未來還有很多就是包括高頻二塊等等的這個主委都很幫忙那我是希望說將來國家在做思考的時候就是包括蔡總統包括我們的賴總統所標榜的就是大藍方新矽谷那大藍方就是藍高頻的結合那也希望說主委可以在這一部分以後有這個公共建設的思考的時候可以"},{"start":530.425,"end":554.68,"text":"用這個觀念去把南高屏把它盡量的連接在一起這樣子我們大概500萬左右的區域經濟體才有辦法自給自足或者是互補不足所以這個部分我想未來南高雄南高屏我們高雄跟台南屏東的結合要更緊密那這個部分再拜託主委在做思考的時候可以再多一個這樣子一個思考會對我們南高屏的發展會更好"},{"start":557.088,"end":582.037,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東的部分我們也持續在關注鐵道局在進行的環評作業當中希望他能夠如期來完成這個環境想評估說明書這個就拜託主委可能包括高鐵 台鐵 國道 公路 飛機機場 20小時機場等等這些都是我們一個大的生活圈之所需"},{"start":582.777,"end":599.094,"text":"所以就是說中央在核定這些計畫的時候希望能夠盡量把我們這三個地方結合在一起的需求這樣子可能核准的機會更高那將來串聯的機會也才會更高好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝許智傑委員"}]}},{"id":"165389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165389","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facef47f8db80d8a45738ff38efa2589ba080f406a00a8f97c06a4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:06:11 - 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謝謝主席那我們請柏定你先休息一下柏定先休息一下石耀署署長石耀署署長來你今天點閱率該關點閱率該關你有什麼意見"},{"start":29.69,"end":39.974,"text":"因為說癌症 我先說癌症我先說癌症啦剛才大家就在跟你請教來我們看第一張的那個slide首長你先給人家告白你先人家說你對癌症沒信心你就不要吃你有說這個嗎不是啊我應該講的快一點我覺得應該要修正啦因為就是說"},{"start":58.64,"end":86.731,"text":"現在這個蛋我們蠻精準的知道在那一家的蛋廠那時候我知道那一家蛋廠的部分我們先特別把它精準的能夠框住那真的是不是很確定的時候稍微聽可是呢這其實這個蛋量其實很大我告訴你這就是我們台灣一年要吃五次蛋你知不知道一天大概一人一顆平均我們台灣一年需要的蛋八十二億顆"},{"start":89.431,"end":113.927,"text":"喔 怕死人喔八十二億顆 不要說是兩千四百三十萬人差不多大家都吃一顆乘以三百六十五 差不多八十五億顆這食蟲量很高 我也很高八十二億顆以上 你看我們的蛋積喔我們的蛋積差不多有三千萬隻 三千萬隻喔"},{"start":116.65,"end":122.016,"text":"因為雞一隻雞一年三八六十五天一年可以產三百顆差不多一年三八六十五天可以生三八顆育成第一名到第二年差不多剩兩百多到差不多八五年就要淘汰了"},{"start":142.742,"end":170.773,"text":"所以大埔的雞丁都這樣你看到沒有 這樣這種品質 這種品質在融釋的我問你 這雞兩匙 這是你管的嗎這不是我管的 這裡在農場裡面後市場在水洗淡了之後呢我們就開始管道跟市場端了所以綁出來的兩處就算你的了 這樣就綁出來要離開養雞場之後才算我的這就像我之前說的"},{"start":172.173,"end":200.942,"text":"那台滴啊有沒有這間滴肉出事或是說滴肉浸那個什麼什麼什麼雙陽水雙陽水啦或是那個符合馬鈴有人泡符合馬鈴嗎沒有啦符合馬鈴要做檢體的不行啦所以吃泉那一類的啦或是說雙陽水雙陽水在屠宰場出屠宰場要勝利的對啊你英文就跟中央市長會搞不清楚啊這都中央市長會在那亂步的啊"},{"start":202.093,"end":211.08,"text":"我們看到這個家庭,三千萬家的情人家,都這樣他剛開始的胖子,跟吃飼料,跟洗腦,剛才跟死,在台上都在家裡那些家庭都很寂寞、寂靜,我那時候看過很多家庭,我都去那裡看"},{"start":226.903,"end":244.991,"text":"這種的芥菜土土的去發酵做堆肥也好這種地方的品質這種地方的雞的心情這心情不要生出來都會好吃啦不然你後面癌症啊 寒病啊都會有什麼那就是後面嘛來你看看 現在下一張這就是水蓮式的"},{"start":250.24,"end":259.626,"text":"你看這個雞肚子很爽脆 生出來的肉也很讚這最重要的 這比較重要所以你們的輔導都做得好 雞肉比較貴 沒關係這個大家每天都要吃的現在以前一斤雞肉差不多高了幾十年 我們吃了算好了"},{"start":273.17,"end":284.64,"text":"以前一斤雞蛋才有30塊而已 我家庭出來的你到市民才有50幾塊 以前在欠雞蛋的時候一斤不到100幾塊現在像這種的 這種的出來一斤差不多一顆才有11塊"},{"start":294.102,"end":306.428,"text":"我比你瘦掉 比你更清楚你只叫人家不要吃 你有在吃嗎有啦 我在爆爆日月還有兩顆沒拿出來我每天吃兩顆水煮蛋 有吃有吃所以這個 來"},{"start":308.542,"end":327.769,"text":"下一張 你看這個就水田市的我是 我們的期待啦我們的醫療水平那麼高我們健保的做得那麼好全世界第一名那我們這個應該要改善啦是低的啦 是低的啦普天有這個比較重要啦這比什麼更重要你這個衝得好 後面就沒了嘛人家不歸我們兩個管你不要說了 你不要要求了看不會我們有說 應該聽我們一定接著說"},{"start":338.093,"end":360.434,"text":"來 這椰子喔 這椰子 這種吃的喔 這個是用泡的水給它吃它吃了 它還可以當冬甘苦這冬 整年喔 半年以上但是這椰子 畢業的那分埔年 多少 幾月了你知道嗎 一百倍"},{"start":363.358,"end":371.928,"text":"分分是什麼 用噴的啦像葡萄園那樣 全都假裝整個 剛才你看到整個 全都亂噴一塊所以我們查出來假裝的毛 它也有它沒有長到那邊"},{"start":378.582,"end":389.557,"text":"你這種東西 這麼貴 要不要把它賣掉大量使用就賣掉了 三千萬才賣兩個賣兩個賣耶你檢保局可以給我介紹 每個人都在抬起眉毛對不對"},{"start":393.842,"end":400.408,"text":"都說你抬得很迷茫 你這要抬 抬得比較高讓他用那個磁 用泡在嘴上很簡單空間比較好 比較有人性 比較優雅這樣這瓶子就提高 而且不會有病要不然你那瓶子一整瓶 裡面都會有雞腎 什麼的 跳蚤它燒也燒 肚子痛肚子痛 刷下去 生的殘疾你也放下了"},{"start":422.312,"end":442.521,"text":"所以台灣這種市街這要改變 不能再這樣了炒到實在是要解散就可以做堆肥 發酵現在有很多地方在做這個就可以改善這市街如果不適合這個 它是很好賺的但是如果像我們中邦的就沒辦法了你可以"},{"start":447.762,"end":457.01,"text":"有啊 那塊Full Render 要給台階小 叫大家都贏普隆的布 誰贏誰贏啦我都不會謹慎啦你來 標示一下我時間要沒了喔 好啦 你 寶丁來寶丁 我要跟你們解釋這個問題解釋這個問題我給你啦"},{"start":472.232,"end":498.493,"text":"來來來 保證這現金一定大贏的你到底是有在做嗎有有 在進行進行喔 因為我們總院長答應說年底嘛我會一直追喔好我每次都會追你好你看年輕醫師現在的住院醫師現在的那個那個那個PGY那個錢都太少了啦他們同樣年齡的住院醫師像我兒子還下輪的"},{"start":502.017,"end":529.198,"text":"他說他們的同學有資工的 去也常常在讀班他在旁邊也在讀班 我在三天四天讀班他們在一個紅海裡頭也常常讀班他們要讀班的人年薪就250多條我們PGY一直待在那裡七、八班八班嘛 差不多十一班而已 十一班而已那十班也才八、二班而已"},{"start":529.847,"end":534.547,"text":"所以你覺得很不值得嘛所以一批外料就糟糕了"},{"start":535.908,"end":560.877,"text":"重症的沒人要走 你沒辦法給人家加薪水你說一年多 多少 多多 真的有多邱太元很好 石崇良也很好都去要了一大堆的經費但是都是在幫醫事人員 護理人員加薪而且我們衛護部盯得很緊 健保署也盯得很緊你這個錢不能給我亂用亂用的話要追回 還要處罰 這很好"},{"start":563.278,"end":589.053,"text":"所以醫界也很有認同說你給我錢 我都來給你調薪但是醫生不調薪喔國健署的署長你都要先帶來你先帶來的薪水也不夠嘛 對不對所以醫生十五年沒加薪這樣你不重振 要捐多少錢你說值班費 加班費 要捐多少錢看財政部這樣擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱擱"},{"start":592.532,"end":618.923,"text":"最新的結構是什麼頭部的結構是什麼委員報告啦我們從稅負公平正義的角度來看因為醫師確實他的工時比一般的人長加班的收入比照我們所得稅法的規定本來就是可以免稅啦所以我們跟財政部公他們也認同現在就是執行的細節的部分"},{"start":621.024,"end":645.158,"text":"到底是多少個小時這個時薪要怎麼計算我們再處理這個加班費 值班 值班那是待命嘛不然待命被你扔掉會很累的你現在要去看看你現在這個年紀要去看看所以川普說的說加班費 值班費 到消費都免稅人家最近要發錢要發2500元 現在要發60000元"},{"start":648.82,"end":673.228,"text":"我們這裡發生了一萬個病例像這個一定是改改舊的我們一塊換了六萬所以沒比率所以這個你沒辦法給他加薪你就給他減一點稅那個差很多你看那個產值還有一般診所的我就不好意思是K診所醫師都要用兩個半月到三個月的全薪去繳稅"},{"start":675.429,"end":688.34,"text":"會很嚴重的事情所以這個是一定要用心馬上趕快解決 年底之前所以你大慈欣台這款大型的最後一個 36話 主席"},{"start":690.342,"end":710.192,"text":"這今天怎麼說這個啦這對我來說這都不重要啦這修法就是要用一個框住有法律的效率讓難免能夠有點保障不然的話有一餐沒一餐的每一年都用公務預算在撥補那個錢有沒有來源下一張有沒有 沒有了"},{"start":713.474,"end":739.624,"text":"來 這寒病啊你要請他用什麼公務預算啊用什麼煙煙煙啊什麼的這一些那現在最近你們國電署也通過那個加熱菸嘛加熱菸加熱菸可以用的嘛電子菸不行嘛電子菸絕對不行裡面都是化學成分 那是西人的所以加熱菸好像主席也偶爾嘛"},{"start":744.381,"end":771.874,"text":"聽不聽得到所以你這個來源要看得清楚讓這裡有補充不然黃證續營這個癌症在這裡大家都要挨挨救我們這裡創造的方法可以安心做然後能夠達到我們在榮同的健康台灣把癌症的那個是發生率還是死亡率死亡率 標準化死亡率死亡率延長下降啦下降標準化死亡率"},{"start":772.634,"end":791.345,"text":"癌症病人活得越久 大家有一個觀念各位媒體朋友 癌症病人活得越久 花越多錢他本來要嫌疑 結果不嫌疑 又繼續挖 又開了很多錢所以癌症的死亡率減少 癌症的存活率越高是表示要花更多更多的錢"},{"start":792.561,"end":806.828,"text":"所以大家觀念要改過來以為說這樣可以省錢沒有 花更多的錢年齡的老化平均壽命的延長就是要付出無窮無盡的代價啦這個是大家要了解的阿我認為很辛苦今天跟阿伯講真的沒問題"},{"start":811.76,"end":828.991,"text":"確實像委員提到的因為隨著醫藥科技的進步現在慢慢的癌症從過去的絕症變成慢性病他確實如果能夠好好的治療他的餘命是可以延長的但是新的藥物確實是不便宜所以我們"},{"start":830.332,"end":848.269,"text":"這個很努力的在找財源那也希望讓這個健保能夠永續下去持續的照顧民眾不要讓人民會因病而病把這個健保的精神最後一個喊病的前線這是用公務預算還是用健保"},{"start":848.749,"end":867.984,"text":"主要還是由健保費的來源就是說我們還是編在整個總額裡面只不過它我們總額分成專款跟一般服務一般服務就是在總額分配時南京大公園醫院個別總額它是一般服務專款是另外用多少給多少的所以它不會有浮動點子的問題"},{"start":869.338,"end":886.492,"text":"所以現在健保連愛滋病的你也自己 你也付啦對以前在第八屆的時候為了愛滋病要讓它延後納入健保給付有公務預算那個時候我跟有限國會大家很努力把它延了三年"},{"start":887.413,"end":909.921,"text":"才納入健保支付 你知道嗎我知道 其實愛滋病現在也是一個慢性病啦所以前兩年的費用是由公務預算支應之後才納入健保那現在連寒病的健保護 癌症的健保護健保的健保要怎麼可能不會到啦不會啦 健保不會到啦好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":917.385,"end":920.862,"text":"一碗煎骨沙茶 比阿姑最好吃的一碗茶你覺得阿姑幾公尺?"}]}},{"id":"165397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facef6ec8ad8c3feba018ff38efa2589ba080f406a00a8f97c06b3e2e9b7fa15091f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:42:05 - 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部長你當初當市長的時候我就看好你我記得我跟你講過一句話我說你要給我做保定喔"},{"start":22.216,"end":47.262,"text":"你要跟我客氣 不信比我嚴重不過最近表現就突切突切這個什麼突然來一個什麼鼓勵加利息加房租超過兩萬的就要什麼什麼等等好啦 我先回來第一題啦今天就談到癌症了還有一個罕見疾病了我的看法是這樣子的沒有人希望得到癌症但是費用這麼高"},{"start":49.13,"end":71.913,"text":"健保能夠cover盡量cover罕見疾病也是這樣我們民意代表出來的第一線的看到那個得到癌症的真的傾家蕩產都有啦所以這一部分我覺得請問你現在癌症的這個支出啊費用包括藥物包括其他治療的佔我們的健保比例都高"},{"start":72.273,"end":83.311,"text":"跟委員報告大概是這樣我們以前一年因為今年還沒統計完我們用去年的話一年的癌症接受治療的大概90萬支出大概1400多億"},{"start":86.293,"end":109.614,"text":"幾% 差不多六分之一 我們健保差不多16%左右六分之一啦 六分之一就16 16.6667我那個第一個 我的訴求就是盡量 可以盡量救啦特別一些這個很辛苦的人 第二點"},{"start":110.782,"end":139.656,"text":"我來不是像主計總署的長官說整個財政距離而已啦我來帶紅包給你啦你現在說一千億啊找不到錢對不對我替你找錢讓你睡得著你是睡不著還是睡不著一樣意思還是睡不好 睡不好睡不好喔 但那去去還有睡的不錯還有睡的如果是你睡不著我現在來這裡今天來這裡特別跟你講"},{"start":141.584,"end":163.092,"text":"你出一招 進帳四千多億什麼意思 那個一千萬上限補充保費啊拿掉 無上限有錢人 大家都了解有錢人賺這麼多當然多幫忙一點啊"},{"start":164.383,"end":192.006,"text":"你知道現金鼓勵最多的人可以領到多少你知道嗎現金鼓勵 你不知道喔現金鼓勵乘以2.11%就是我們的補充包圍對不對小資本額為什麼大家反彈這麼大那些退休的存款族五張十張 也被你課當然就XXX對不對但是那個大老闆你知道高到多少現金鼓勵喔"},{"start":193.379,"end":212.234,"text":"我就知道有一兩位喔 超過一百億一年喔 一年喔 一年喔 一年喔 一年喔One year only有人超過一百億 超過十億的一槓子為什麼我們只有扣到一千萬呢"},{"start":213.43,"end":234.168,"text":"你把一千萬的屋頂拿掉你原來還在講說怎麼變五千萬我說是幹什麼加一個你來差不多怎麼變五千萬變五億或者變十億上限到這裡你敢不敢這得罪有權人我敢得罪有權人你敢不敢剛剛我聽到委員這樣講我眼睛都亮起來"},{"start":235.369,"end":252.018,"text":"那我就告訴你 我跟你讓眼睛更亮晚上叫我睡了還打呼 我跟你說來 我跟你講去年2024年現金股利總發放多少你知道嗎你不知道啊2.3兆啊2.3兆乘以2.11%是多少4850億"},{"start":260.219,"end":278.896,"text":"我今天來這裡就帶這個紅包給你你敢不敢提這個東西你前面講的那個我們現在這個主席啊 王委員太客氣了啦還有什麼總資產都漏漏洞一堆 不用一行就好啊改得很簡單的 只要改一條 一千萬拿掉就好啊 所有的都扣2.1%"},{"start":281.286,"end":296.376,"text":"小資族不會罵你有錢人心裡想罵你也不敢罵他領100億多交個2.11%就多交個2億算什麼對不對 必要的時候你給他匯台灣兩多給他一個獎牌"},{"start":299.844,"end":325.231,"text":"對不對 他可能不敢拿 說不定了不過這個報紙都有寫 你刷一下就知道你注意看啊 那些大老闆持股多少公開資料 刷一刷就知道我不能點名了 媒體都有點名了我這個資料是工商時報的資料今年5月份的資料現金股率現金股率Cash Dividend2.3兆乘以2.11% 4850億"},{"start":328.872,"end":344.03,"text":"今天我就帶這個禮物給你謝謝委員今天帶這麼大的紅包你敢不敢嘛 你敢不敢做喔這個晚上一定很好睡啦你敢不敢啊 問你啊還是要跟我這次學會了要先跟跨部會協調一下"},{"start":344.787,"end":348.75,"text":"你不要講說明年還補多少什麼100億200億300億把有錢人的毛他也不敢挨你小資族去挨我跟你講這些有錢人你看"},{"start":367.833,"end":381.507,"text":"我一看啊 媒體順便一翻哪一家什麼科技公司23億就是去年的這個鼓勵現金鼓勵喔現金喔Cash Dividend喔還有17億還有30幾億的鋼紙啦"},{"start":384.95,"end":413.71,"text":"因為補充保費的時候那時候國民黨還是執政黨參與補充保費的時候我在裡面很清楚我記得到一千萬我就低估了我是為什麼這麼低我那時候就主張要五千萬那時候我就主張五千萬你知道嗎因為現在發現五千萬不夠那時候因為最高最高的現金孤立那時候33億現在呢超過100億的我已經看到兩個人了"},{"start":416.698,"end":436.912,"text":"對不對 從這裡下手好不好我們希望讓這個越有能力的人對啊 他也覺得很光榮啊 有錢啊一年而已耶他一年的現金鼓勵是一百億耶天啊 我想說我們不知道可能一輩子不要說一百億 幾億"},{"start":439.073,"end":467.694,"text":"我们再细算一下看看这些是到现金鼓励到哪一些到底到哪边去的你没有100亿你要上限最少10亿啦你现在1000万把它加2个0啦我们下次提出修法的时候我一定支持啦第三个我要讲的你不要把什么鼓励利息帮助什么把它加总这个你等于抢估税期的生意喔我们现在是救援课税"},{"start":468.959,"end":498.243,"text":"救援課費所以你能一課就到你要加總那等於第二國稅局喔你要一缸子的人去處理你股率多少啦 利息多少啦我們主席賺很多錢他的房租賺多少啦 他房子比較多比如這樣講 隨便講齁對不對 那個是財政部的事情喔財政部他不一定地盤 你要請他的地盤不會理你喔所以只有一條路 就我剛剛講的一千萬的上限拿掉"},{"start":499.537,"end":528.309,"text":"對不對 你稍微科技一點把它降到10億這個故事就不一樣了我告訴你 你是好歹最少2000億金賬這樣可以嗎謝謝委員我們會去再跟相關單位確認一下這個金額到底其他單位都不會有人講話啦只有大老闆他心裡面說不定會怎麼樣但是他不敢講出來啦因為講出來他就說他就知道錢太多我們所有的考慮都是說讓大家付費公平啦"},{"start":529.57,"end":544.524,"text":"這個很公平啦 這個有錢人多交一點你鼓勵拿個十億好了十億 然後你交個兩千萬 算什麼我們朝這個方向來對不對 這個東西很簡單的事所以我除了剛才那個長官講說我財政紀律之外我要來帶紅包給你 好 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝賴志寶聖誕委員"},{"start":554.873,"end":557.098,"text":"加持跟發言謝謝謝謝部長的答詢"}]}},{"id":"165396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face5cd21c9cd278af59fa47f864c5dfb45a0f406a00a8f97c06cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:39:43 - 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向財團靠攏那我現在的問題就來了那現在民進黨的150倍算叫什麼叫做照顧基層的民眾嗎如果民進黨當年批判馬英九的75倍"},{"start":355.003,"end":381.532,"text":"是窮了誰 富了誰 向財團靠攏我再問一個問題啊民進黨執政這幾年過來現在已經飆到150倍啊青出於藍 更勝於藍啊結果今天交這種官方報告還用民進黨過去痛批的標準在文過是非啊交這種報告出來 你們不會覺得丟臉喔你是在打臉當年的陳錫邁嗎"},{"start":383.854,"end":406.033,"text":"還是在打臉當年的蔡英文這樣子的標準會不會太可笑還是當年陳其邁 蔡英文用這樣的方式來批評當初的執政黨根本就不公平 不正確 不對現在民進黨的態度是什麼"},{"start":407.234,"end":426.963,"text":"主席長簡要回來就好我們一般是用吉尼係數這是所謂世界也是通用的一個係數所以朱建議是錯的所以當年民進黨是錯的濁是清非 勢是非非完全看民進黨佔什麼位置"},{"start":428.038,"end":453.059,"text":"我如果站在野黨 基尼係數是大錯特錯我如果站執政黨 一定要用五等分位用基尼係數啊連朱金月式都是錯的民進黨好厲害好厲害標準變來變去今天這個報告我會邀請所有在網路上面"},{"start":454.842,"end":482.999,"text":"關心這個議題的台灣人民跟年輕人看一看看你們看得下去看不下去主席站起來了啦要救你沒有關係啦時間到了齁我聽得懂啦但是我希望你們自己回去好好想一想雙標程這個樣子雙標程這個樣子丟人現眼好 謝謝黃委員齁其實我已經延長兩分鐘了齁來 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謝謝主席 我們邀請院長我請院長楊委員好"},{"start":11.687,"end":33.929,"text":"院長好 我們來討論再生能源院長 這個畫面你應該不陌生因為你之前在演講的時候也提到2050年再生能源風電跟太陽能在我國最大的提供大概是100兆瓦斯一千億度多少"},{"start":35.106,"end":51.804,"text":"1000亿度对啊就是1000亿度100兆瓦时那即便把现有的核电厂重新再启用也大概只有30亿兆瓦时那剩下的这个电力缺口还是要以其他的方式来补是"},{"start":52.725,"end":78.606,"text":"那您提出了因为我们我国的这个地球这个地下人口三分之二大概是山地所以光电跟风电这个确实它是受到空间的一个受限那在这样的情况之下你认为到目前为止你看我们发展的再生能源我们是不是有这样子的一个空间的一个受限请做说明是会有限制没有错"},{"start":79.56,"end":103.053,"text":"是会有限制那么再生能源在台湾来讲它发展上似乎如果如此它变成会有一个上限而且它会有一个阻碍那也代表着我们的再生能源跟新能源并列核电不管是现有的重启研疫或者是未来的发展都是我们能源政策应该采用的重点吧是不是 院长是的"},{"start":103.553,"end":127.66,"text":"是的那所以在演讲当中您也提到2023年的时候我们用电大概是280这个2800亿度2800亿度那在这样的情况之下就算假设我们经济成长是零我们到了2050年的时候我们至少要5000亿度我们至少要5000亿度那甚至可能要到6000亿度是的"},{"start":128.78,"end":152.398,"text":"那這個數字還沒有算上現在新的AI的資料的大量的一個需求那所以在2050年我們再生能源擴展的上限是1000億度的時候那麼從數字上跟邏輯上來看如果繼續非核家園的政策根本沒有辦法支撐這個國家所需要的電力缺口是不是如此"},{"start":154.017,"end":168.484,"text":"即使用核能仍然是不够对我们要强调是即使用核能仍然不够所以核能是必要的是会有帮助的是会用核能是会有帮助的所以我们继续讨论也就是说"},{"start":169.544,"end":187.237,"text":"曾經您也說過我們國家的一個發展它不應該排除核能在這樣的脈絡之下本席要請教過去政府推這個廢核也就是廢核家園的政策那你是不是同意啊政府當前的廢核家園政策你是不是同意"},{"start":187.777,"end":214.926,"text":"每一个政策都有它的时代背景而且科技是随着时间在不断的进步所以目前为止呢目前这一般的体认是不用核能是非常可惜的一件事情因为核能毕竟它是现在被接受为一个捷径能源"},{"start":215.606,"end":234.988,"text":"但是它必須要為社會民眾所接受也必須要能夠處理核廢料的問題更重要的是安全要沒有顧慮那這三項在目前的至少兩項就是安全跟核廢料至少安全在技術上是可以"},{"start":236.329,"end":257.563,"text":"可以突破的剩下就是核废料的处理是比较困难一点全世界也同样没有核废料没有地方做永久核废料的处置剩下就要说服一般民众一般民众即使你赞成也说建在你家不要建在我家建在你家我就赞成建在我家我就"},{"start":258.483,"end":279.247,"text":"所以这么的解读就是说目前政府当前的非核家园政策它是没有办法去回应我国未来电力的需求是不是因为政府也说他们采开放性的一个态度来看待这件事情你确定说这个非核家园是不是仍然是政府的政策"},{"start":280.578,"end":308.792,"text":"这我不确定所以刚刚院长所说的也就是因为核电整个的目前跟以往的技术是不一样的所以这一点是比较安全的一个取向那所以在这样的情况下现在我们的环境基本法的23条也就明定规定政府应该定定计划逐步达成非核家园的这个目标那如果照院长我们以及现在社会大众以及全世界的一个方向你是否愿意"},{"start":309.212,"end":333.217,"text":"来表示说支持我们整个重启核电这样子的一个积极的发展核能态度是的因为本席在经济委员会现在他们的进度是签合到经济部那可能下个据本席了解的进度下个礼拜就会由经济部来核定他们的安检是否需"},{"start":333.937,"end":351.505,"text":"许可不许可那么我们希望这个方向是朝正面的开始启动我认为是正面的你认为是正面的所以在荷兰的技术方面要向全民能够说明是安全性没有问题"},{"start":353.046,"end":375.922,"text":"这个我想大家才容易接受所以在整个核安因为你是学术界的牛耳麻院长我们实质讨论也就是说目前台电在盘点核二核三那进程大概下个礼拜会去做核定的工作那么请教如果我们在整个提升核电安全技术上面"},{"start":377.884,"end":392.155,"text":"來做核二核三的一個安全性的運轉方向來執行台灣目前是有這個能力的嗎請教當然所有事情不應該只限於台灣的能力我們可以引進國外的技術是"},{"start":393.756,"end":412,"text":"我想引进国内国际上绝对是有这个技术国际上有这个技术所以这个方向是可行的所以我们也希望因为国内大家希望能够有稳定的电安全的电一定要朝这个方向好好来加油谢谢谢谢杨琼英委员院长请"}]}},{"id":"165394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face5e999e646a6fbdc88ff38efa2589ba080f406a00a8f97c069a6adb080ab407945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:35:16 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11:42:00","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T11:35:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T11:42:00+08:00","duration":404,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.58784375,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.25846875,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6253437500000003,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.57721875,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.454718750000005,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.618468750000005,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.82346875,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.494093750000005,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.42471875000001,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.14596875000001,"end":121.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.64659375000001,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.91659375,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.66596875,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.33659375,"end":139.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.18346875,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.30534375000002,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.52846875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.19909375,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.03846875000002,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.27034375,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.12659375,"end":146.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.05471875,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.86846875,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.87659375,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.88909375,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.05409375000002,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.82471875000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.24221875,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.57909375000003,"end":220.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.07596875000002,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.33471875000004,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.87784375,"end":316.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.55971875,"end":369.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.66096875000005,"end":397.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.13659375000003,"end":377.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.89159375,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.79659375,"end":394.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.68221875,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.28534375000004,"end":397.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.57221875000005,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.58909375,"end":397.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.82534375,"end":403.42784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.613,"end":28.785,"text":"來 請部長來 部長 林委員好我長話短說我想健保擴大補充保惠新制引發爭議那衛福部沒有跨部會討論就片面的釋放健保補充保惠來調整訊息拔草測風向也引發整個股市的動盪那本席是希望說衛福部跟行政院要考慮這些退休族"},{"start":29.525,"end":56.339,"text":"上班族小資族生活不易不要亂放消息引起民心恐慌還是狼來了很久了擴大補充保費政策就會變真的嗎你有什麼看法跟委員報告這整個健保的財務確實需要全盤的討論不會只針對某一項或某一類的人那對於這個付費的公平性都是一項的健保的精神"},{"start":57.159,"end":67.565,"text":"所以我們一定會考慮到量能付費的問題你這個橫向的一定要找這些人來研究不是只有你一個人擅自發表會出很大的問題人家說你在炒作股票對不對我本身都沒有股票啦"},{"start":74.209,"end":98.849,"text":"高血壓疾病位居113年國人的死大死因第六名死亡人數達到8928人死大死因中的心臟疾病腦血管疾病腎臟疾病還有糖尿病也都跟高血壓有直接關係那這些死因人數相加起來已經超過了第一名的癌症俗話說預防腎移治療"},{"start":100.791,"end":122.25,"text":"也就是說健保節流的方法之一代謝症候群防治的計畫自1111年的7月期推動到今天已經滿三週年那累計協助超過42萬人那我請問部長估計已省下多少健保的醫療費用你們有沒有統計過"},{"start":123.611,"end":150.528,"text":"這個我們倒沒有很精確的統計不過就誠如這個委員提的能夠在疾病的前期或早期趕快控制住甚至把它逆轉減少後面的重病的發生這個是確實是要多宣傳然後預防剩餘治療讓大家有那種健康的嘗試我認為這個很重要所以剛剛您提的那個代謝症候群我們會持續的推廣現在人數也在增加"},{"start":150.928,"end":177.182,"text":"那個時部長賴清德總統近日拜託工業界來幫員工加薪加薪會促進消費讓台灣整個社會更穩定那根據衛福部刊登在求職網上面的工作許多職缺普遍月薪跟最低工資差不多比如說衛福部豐原醫院"},{"start":177.922,"end":185.569,"text":"這個趙芙園月薪只有29860元起那彰化醫院這個趙芙園是28590元本期是希望說衛福部響應賴總統的呼籲將趙芙園增財的月薪予以調整提高那部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":203.123,"end":224.74,"text":"我們來檢討確實是我們這兩年這個健保的總額成長是歷年最高啦像今年較去年的成長率是這個實質加進來是近8%的那明年又是高成長所以我們會來檢討讓所有的醫事人員的薪資包含造福員都一樣"},{"start":225.26,"end":241.918,"text":"對啊 因為部長現在已經不如高齡化社會那你當然很多長者需要造福源來配合那你又薪資搞得那麼低那我認為這個都要去做通牌性的檢討啦好地法院在今年八月通過包裝無糖"},{"start":242.818,"end":258.303,"text":"飲品的免稅那台北市公共衛生公會特別提醒說無糖飲料多以人工甜味劑來替代長期健康的風險能去增益那政府有責任長期來監測"},{"start":261.084,"end":274.293,"text":"國際的癌症研究機構已將田味劑就是阿斯巴田列入可能致癌物建立因審慎來評估 等於是暴露的風險"},{"start":275.814,"end":295.612,"text":"那台北醫學大學營養學院研究發現甜味劑蔗糖素吃多了可能損害男性的生育率像那個精子的數量恐怕大減25%本期是希望說衛福部啟動相關研究監測的計畫"},{"start":297.653,"end":322.261,"text":"來瞭解人體食用甜味劑後有哪些可能的危害風險那個部長你的看法跟委員報告我們對於這個食品安全標準的設計設定我們一向是跟隨國際的接軌然後實證的依據這個我們會來評論這個很重要最後一題台灣已經步入高齡化的社會政府鼓勵長者多走"},{"start":323.081,"end":349.712,"text":"多走出來 就出門走走來增進體能 情緒的健康但某些縣市 鄉鎮大眾運輸不足部分高齡駕駛只能自駕以滿足日常外出的需求若政府希望長者不要自己騎車 開車方便的公共運輸就很重要先前本席也向交通部建議要與衛福部共同來檢討"},{"start":351.032,"end":369.13,"text":"長照交通車使用方式增加醫院以外的停靠點以加會高齡長者出外的需求交通部也回覆本席說長照交通車由衛福部主政因此希望衛福部把本席的建議帶回去研究怎麼樣"},{"start":369.97,"end":395.738,"text":"跟委員說明為了協助這個長者就醫其實我們在南區有試辦那個小黃計程車還有那個公車站有協調跟地方有協調過我們有這個經驗那我們把過去在健保做這個協助到醫療院所去就醫這個以前我們過去已經在做的在南區都在這樣做那我們會考慮到地方上的需要你來評估看一下好不好再找交通部來幫忙對對對好 謝謝"},{"start":397.879,"end":402.915,"text":"好 謝謝林德文委員發言謝謝部長答詢下一位請賴世保委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face4489fa094509b123fa47f864c5dfb45a0f406a00a8f97c06de4db3fcf8990ae15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:27:19 - 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央行副總裁還有我們的主計長好 請陳主計長然後原副總裁高副主委"},{"start":17.022,"end":31.975,"text":"三位好我想在這裡要很誠摯的跟大家感謝身為執政黨的委員我必須要肯定整個行政團隊在國家財政穩定跟經濟發展上面的貢獻"},{"start":34.042,"end":55.098,"text":"那我要跟大家做一個說明我是來自於非常偏鄉的一個區域立委當然熟知主計長他非常了解在我的選區裡頭我們很多的農民 漁民還有就是基層的勞工也相當的多"},{"start":55.973,"end":74.543,"text":"那今天站在這裡其實不是來要漂亮的一個數字而是要來一個答案所以特別跟那個副主委做一個探討就是說台灣這幾年不管在GBT還是在股市的一個指數裡頭這個突破27000點其實這個數字都非常的漂亮"},{"start":79.426,"end":98.777,"text":"可是當我回到選區的時候,我的選民拉著我的手告訴我說委員,如果這樣,你都說有夠好有夠好,可是我們確實都面臨到非常多的一個困境我想在這裡就是要跟你做一個探討,這個是我們執政的一個危機"},{"start":100.748,"end":114.667,"text":"我不知道那個 副主委你對於我這些想法上我讓你看到一個台南市的中手稅的一個結算申報我們有37個區 最有錢的這個是中西區101"},{"start":120.476,"end":141.145,"text":"這個101萬個人最最貧窮的是柳營區65.8萬你看光是一個台南37個區差距就這麼大那你如果用全國來比的話那我們從這個數字裡頭我們可以看得到政府的亮眼的數據跟人民這個冰冷的感受"},{"start":143.051,"end":165.529,"text":"回答我對於這樣子的一個社會氛圍你有什麼樣的一個感覺報告委員我覺得我們近年來因為台灣那個半導體產業的發展那跟傳產之間的確有一個非常比較大的落差就是我們的ICT產業其實因為那個數位轉型還有AI"},{"start":166.549,"end":191.968,"text":"創新運用的發展得非常好我們產產某個程度上受到比如說大陸內捲還有一些關稅的一些效應其實事實上它會比較辛苦一點我們其實政府已經有注意到所謂產業分佈的兩極化的問題還有一個所以我們現在全力想要做的一件事情除了維持我們在IIII半導體的競爭優勢以外均衡台灣"},{"start":194.89,"end":201.956,"text":"是當前政府施政的重點之一怎麼均衡 怎麼均衡台灣80%跟20%如何均衡所以第一個我們在產業發展中間我們一定要全力讓我們的傳產跟中小微企業都可以有AI賦能或者是我們儘量用不同的政策工具協助它可以轉型升級"},{"start":220.993,"end":238.331,"text":"好用不同的政策工具讓他轉型升級謝謝副主委那接著我請教那個我們的央行副總裁我們來講這個物價那我也不跟那個副總裁計較就是說這個GPT多穩定我也不問你說額外增進多少錢我想這些"},{"start":241.955,"end":266.545,"text":"這些情況就是通膨通膨這個怪獸其實已經悄悄的就是降臨在我們市周圍他數字的平均成長是增加的可是在偏鄉是下降的你我們從109年到104年的那個全國的農林業普查裡頭我以台南市台南市各區的農業收入為例你看這個5年當中"},{"start":269.025,"end":291.019,"text":"五年當中其實它總計它是升上來的它是升了10%可是如果你用每一個區來看的話這個柳營區它是降了12%六甲這是暴跌到17.34斜甲這個龍葉跟榆木葉非常發達的一個地方是富士山"},{"start":292.08,"end":306.253,"text":"所以在這裡我想請問就是副總裁你覺得台灣現在的通貨膨脹這麼嚴重那這些報告上的數據真的是符合到台灣人民的一個感受嗎"},{"start":307.878,"end":327.355,"text":"那個報告委其實如果我們去比較台灣的通貨膨脹跟其他國家通貨膨脹其實我們可以看到我們在我們的圖裡面也看到其實我們相對其他國家來講我們試著讓他通貨膨脹已經控制到相對的比人家是平緩很多的一個情況當然我也知道就是說這個對"},{"start":330.923,"end":356.141,"text":"這個所得差距這邊還是會影響到所以副總裁你覺得這個通膨膨脹如果比起其他國家裡頭的話我們相信的是穩定的一個通膨所以這個是大家應該要接受也應該是可以接受的是不是這樣子我們也看到就是最近這幾年其實通膨已經慢慢在下降了"},{"start":358.206,"end":378.118,"text":"即使是我們預期今年和明年其實跟前兩年比我們的通膨低卻主委你現在就是貧富鹹酥差那麼多嘛百分之二十的日積很好過百分之八十很難過所以說如果你是這樣子跟我回答的話那我本席是覺得很遺憾來 主席長"},{"start":380.279,"end":407.466,"text":"我想這個你的報告整體的成長10%有沒有看到背後就是在農業上就很多大農戶其實是賺錢的可是小農民反而是在退整體的平均數是不是被少數的高收入把它拉高了掩蓋了基層基層這些農民我是針對的農漁民來跟你講他們實際的一個困境我不知道主計長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":410.273,"end":432.615,"text":"本身這個部分他下降的部分因為因素是很多啦有可能就是說他的農地被徵收了然後資源我當然知道那這樣子他收入就會下降所以等於說經營的面積減少那不見得說他是他收入是這樣但總體來講他就是減少的那這個部分的我們也必須要深入去了解他到底是"},{"start":433.475,"end":437.517,"text":"你有沒有什麼好的方法還是說我們只要看這個科技業的20%那其他的百工百業的80%我們就是自我感覺良好就覺得說這個通膨的情況不嚴重"},{"start":458.683,"end":473.861,"text":"因為這幾個區大部分都是屬於農業區農業區的部分我們在農業部裡面有很多相關的一個補助和一個整個是在提升它一個相關收入的一些的措施在做所以這個要跨部會"},{"start":474.462,"end":497.301,"text":"我跟你講 農民的收入的問題出現了很大的一個困難的時候好 那三位都請回那我們接著就是請財政部部長因為財政部他的護稅在他身上所以他可以用最好的一個護稅的一個手法那是一個跨部會的手法所以在這裡我想請教部長"},{"start":498.862,"end":522.722,"text":"剛剛在我的質詢的內容裡頭你已經發現到龍一鳴勞工慢慢已經是入不敷出那感覺努力的工作他也換不到溫飽甚至說他的收入在遞減了請問部長你感覺到今天的報告中的經濟的一個數據有沒有重大的一個落差跟現有的一個環境因為你不能告訴我說你遇到的都好人"},{"start":525.373,"end":536.557,"text":"不然你們家打掃了歐巴桑你問問他所以對於有關我們中低收入的民眾我們在付稅部分就盡量減輕他們的負擔所以事實上有44%的申報戶在中所稅申報的時候是並沒有要達到繳稅的門檻"},{"start":546.301,"end":567.568,"text":"然後適用5%的稅率的部分大概佔36%所以在這個部分其實是對於中低收入所得者他的付稅負擔基本上是蠻低的幾乎44%就全部申報戶裡面是不用繳稅的所以部長你看到了問題的一個核心有錢的人 收入的人其實他可以結稅"},{"start":568.928,"end":590.857,"text":"他不需要繳那麼多的稅可是你在這個中低下層的這些農漁民的時候他每一條稅他都跑不掉所以就是說有沒有辦法跟農業部做一個合作就是建立農漁民所得的一個追蹤的一個機制我們讓稅制讓稅制跟補貼跟金融的一個輔助可以精準的對焦"},{"start":591.897,"end":604.825,"text":"我覺得這個其實是財政部可以做的我想委員這樣建議跟農業部去合作然後讓政府的相關的補助補貼可以更精準我想這個部分我們是可以跟農業部一起來討論沒有錯"},{"start":607.366,"end":626.706,"text":"部長 謝謝你我跟你講 榮英明的收入在下降可是成本在上升財政部你可以在能源稅在用油的補貼還有就是容積的一個折舊抵稅的一個政策上我建議應該要有一個積極跨部會的合作的一個調整方案好的 是 謝謝委員"},{"start":629.521,"end":650.437,"text":"做得到嗎我們再跟農業部再來討論那事實上目前來說農運民幾乎大概都沒有相關有沒有這樣的一個決心錢都在你身上錢都在我身上錢不是都在我身上因為剛才央行副總裁他告訴我說這個通盤如果比起外國來我們算是基本上算是還好的是平穩的對"},{"start":651.178,"end":670.514,"text":"那我為什麼要跟國外比呢我的國內我的農移民就是狀況這麼慘啊所以我就回到財政部裡頭所有的那個稅在你的身上是不是可以用一個比較合理的有錢人跟一般的農民他有一個不同的一個稅制的方式"},{"start":671.134,"end":689.029,"text":"現在就有區別譬如說是用40%所得稅率的人他其實只佔了我們的1%但是他繳的稅是繳了全部應納稅額的50%的大概是這樣子那所以當然我跟你講那個交你那個40%的你就是給他再收到80%他也沒差啦"},{"start":691.491,"end":720.451,"text":"互稅的部分還要考慮其他的因素是所以部長我想就是要拜託你一個跨部會跨部會的一個合作那我們建立一個可以讓稅制更好更周全的一個機制然後可以精準的對焦來幫助這些人我們在相關政策討論的時候都會跟部會一起討論三個月後提出來三個月後對委員這邊的一個提議我們來做一個給一個完整的書面報告給委員"},{"start":720.991,"end":725.739,"text":"好 我們希望不是一個量力的數字是個讓人民有感的一個數字比較具體實際的數字好 謝謝謝謝賴委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"165392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facea4231039b7f4e29de72a0011d4bca9f90f406a00a8f97c069bfab19d618f9b825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:28:56 - 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目前有四個紙計畫在做"},{"start":377.29,"end":393.798,"text":"那最主要像地籍古時候日治時代的那種地籍圖它需要經過因為它的字是用手寫的然後有很多蓋章所以我們需要經過影像處理一些處理然後再把它變成數位化那在這個狀況之下我們現在還在"},{"start":396.679,"end":415.391,"text":"今年是第二年它的速度就增快非常多一开始的时候技术不足但是现在已经变得非常有技术所以这个部分在进行中然后我想这个部分呢至于它的那个因为它时代已经久远应该没有所谓的版权的问题是是是所以应该是可以纳入而且进行的相当好"},{"start":415.931,"end":430.135,"text":"然后另外的还有台思索他们也有一个计划也是在做这是我们院长极力在推的这个怎么样把我们的这些文本资料有关于历史的文本资料能够把它数位化然后把它处理"},{"start":430.663,"end":453.186,"text":"好謝謝那我再簡單再追問一個問題就是說中研院有個數位文化中心那大約有131個資料庫跟工具平台還有主題網站這些數位化的成果可是有些網站已經失效那需要轉置也需要這個重新檢視那資料那現在資料庫的數量有"},{"start":453.806,"end":481.806,"text":"就現在需要重新檢視的資料庫有107個那看起來有做盤點下架那不過本席是發現還有少數的網站是失效的那另外本席之前也有說過就是說關鍵字的這個搜尋功能目前只能針對個別的網站來提供簡短的說明內容做搜尋那沒有辦法跨資料庫的檢索那這部分似乎好像還沒有改善"},{"start":482.566,"end":510.208,"text":"整體來說就是說雖然中研院有數位典藏平台當作入口的網站可是匯整大部分的這個數位資源跟成果的網站跟實際操作起來還是難以實現跨資料庫的這個解鎖那使用者還是要就是要進到不同的網站然後反覆輸入關鍵字那以上本席所提到的中研院在改善經濟上覺得還有哪些的挑戰院長"},{"start":512.053,"end":539.606,"text":"我想这方面网页失联部分我们会请数位文化中心可以改进好委员好上次委员提醒之后我们其实是在院长指示之下我们做各所的一个统整当然因为我们过去承接了过去国家数位典藏计划里面的一些资料所以包括了一些不只应该算100多个网站其实有300多个网站正在维运当中尤其有很多因为系统的部分也停摆了"},{"start":540.046,"end":557.206,"text":"那这就是过去国家气候检查人员留下来的资产我们也希望能够火化现在我们注像是兵分两路一个是我们众议院既有的各个所他们所维运的系统是不是能透过您所提到的这种跨国户检索来进行那这东西涉及到整个网络架构的问题我们还在盘点之中"},{"start":557.867,"end":585.212,"text":"另外一个就是国家数位典藏留下来这个300多个网页我们进行维聚当然也涉及到一个资安的问题那我们现在希望能够这东西提供一个联合目录的重新的整形和再并那这个情节上就会使得我们大家同仁在使用所谓过去国安建制的这些资料的时候能够继续使用和活化所以谢谢委员指导我们会进一步能够提供您的了解好 再努力再加油好 谢谢院长谢谢主席"},{"start":587.066,"end":590.495,"text":"謝謝林益菁委員請院長回座"}]}},{"id":"165391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face76fc5eb7b5ada62f8ff38efa2589ba080f406a00a8f97c06fcb5752122d9094a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:21:44 - 11:35:10","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n(討論事項)\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。\n十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-13","start_time":"2025-11-13T11:21:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-13T11:35:10+08:00","duration":806,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.56034375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.298468750000005,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.711593750000006,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.24221875,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.33909375000002,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.03471875000002,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.68159375000002,"end":260.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.72846875,"end":316.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.38221875,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.94034375,"end":337.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.61534375,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.53409375,"end":369.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.84159375,"end":348.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.77284375000005,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.32909375,"end":360.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.00409375000004,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.28971875,"end":404.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.78659375,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.72159375,"end":414.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.58909375,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.36909375000005,"end":428.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.47034375000004,"end":428.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.45659375,"end":435.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.82721875000004,"end":450.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.43721875000006,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.92409375000005,"end":467.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.46159375,"end":486.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.11534375,"end":498.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.23596875000004,"end":507.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.79534375000003,"end":609.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.55409375,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.3215937499999,"end":518.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.5234687500001,"end":520.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.8428437499999,"end":618.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.29284375,"end":659.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.65784375,"end":632.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.84346875,"end":632.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4890937499999,"end":659.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.52284375,"end":659.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.8940937500001,"end":683.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.9072187500001,"end":719.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.68221875,"end":749.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.92221875,"end":790.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.3884687500001,"end":793.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.56096875,"end":793.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.71284375,"end":793.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":793.7634687500001,"end":793.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.96596875,"end":794.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":794.3372187500001,"end":794.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.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爸爸劉委員所以看起來好像劉兆偉之前聽到的一些論述跟今天聽到好像是沒有太大的差別麻煩兆偉請回座 謝謝"},{"start":212.211,"end":228.676,"text":"其實國際有其他的經驗在我們就是上個月的10月30號立法院獲勝會也召開了提升癌症新藥可進行的專家會議那裡面的專家包括韓信文教授他也是第六屆的健保會"},{"start":228.996,"end":245.832,"text":"委員他有提出一些國際經驗如何能夠來增加這個相關的費用的挹注包括說有沒有可能透過這個食品健康捐包括不健康食品稅啊肥胖稅等等的或者是課徵酒品健康福利捐或加徵酒稅"},{"start":246.693,"end":260.758,"text":"那加成捐烟税开增碳税或者是对环境造成有可能跟癌症相关的一些部分做处理那这个部分不知道部长有没有一些想法"},{"start":263.873,"end":283.466,"text":"確實如同剛剛大家討論的要新增一個基金一定要有除既有稅收或者是國庫撥補以外的裁員才有辦法設立但是因為現在如果以這個癌症新藥而言我們在健保裡面其實就在支付所以才會在健保基金裡面先含納"},{"start":284.306,"end":300.784,"text":"有一個專款專用的概念所以我們也去修訂了全民健康保險基金收支保管及應用辦法讓它有法源所以政府撥補的這些公務預算呢通通放在這裡專款專用所以這個部分已經初步達到那個精神"},{"start":301.525,"end":315.401,"text":"只是說大家現在比較擔心是說會不會有時候撥多撥少我們還是得去拜託主總願意撥下來那大家如果覺得說這樣的做法上希望更穩定那我們就得找裁員"},{"start":317.643,"end":342.551,"text":"這些財源也都要考慮到能不能夠支撐我們現在是以公務預算在撥補這個規模呢那麼這個其實如果按照我們的設計可能一年也會達到百億甚至更多那其他這個新增的這個財源能不能夠支應到那麼能不能抽得到這個我們都會再研議這個都在我們的評估範圍內"},{"start":344.554,"end":368.752,"text":"好 那我們希望在早時間多來了解這部分那再過來就是有關於針對國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例這也是非常重要的一環那早上部長在報告的時候也說已經進到這個行政院在審查當中那有沒有比較可預估的這個期程或者是什麼時候有預計會進到立法院來做審查"},{"start":369.775,"end":390.531,"text":"因為因為我們同時有兩個行政法人一個是那個中醫藥研究所我們要改設成為中醫藥研究院的行政法人那另外一個就是國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例這個也是一個行政法人所以我們是兩個法人的設置條例現在都在行政院一併審查因為都是"},{"start":391.171,"end":416.442,"text":"衛福部主管所以我們這兩個案子行政院也會一同的審查所以快的話我覺得也是會很快年底前可能就會送到大院來到時候再請衛院來協助再過來就是我們也了解2023年為了要讓這個癌症信號基金在成立過程裡面有更好的一個學習過程所以也去英國包括去參訪NICE跟他們NHS"},{"start":417.322,"end":434.138,"text":"那其實我們也了解當初的英國設立這個NICE這個癌症新藥基金CDFUN的時候他們後來又改變也增加了所謂的IMF就是有關於這個新藥相關的這個基金有點雙軌並行那將來台灣會有什麼樣的一些方式來做處置嗎"},{"start":440.204,"end":456.218,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上我們在113年我們就在健保總額裡面有一個暫時性支付的專款就是Conditional Listing那時候就是在先等於是我們現在癌症信藥基金的前身"},{"start":458.019,"end":482.482,"text":"現在有了這個癌藥基金之後其實在健保的總額裡面還是有保留一個專款屬於叫做這個除了癌症新藥以外的這個這個condition暫時性支付的專款在它的概念就是對於其他的新藥不是癌症的新藥也可以用這個機制類似像英國的IMF這樣的方式來收窄"},{"start":482.742,"end":506.404,"text":"所以這個是目前有這樣的機制其實我們已經有點雙軌制在進行對 我們現在是雙軌制一個是用公務預算一個是在總額裡面的專款那未來是不是要再成立另外一個基金也是同樣的問題啦OK 好 謝謝再過來就是有關於如何能夠針對於健保裁員合理調整"},{"start":508.871,"end":528.036,"text":"好像不止700億的缺口啦其實我們的這個整個規模已經到一兆了已經到達千億嘛那個前兩天有看到這個媒體所以我們這個我們部長都睡不好是睡不好還是睡不著不知道不過至少這個三道破口是大家要值得關心那我們的這個中華經濟研究院的"},{"start":528.736,"end":550.933,"text":"連憲民院長也認為這三道破口包括勞動人口的萎縮還有世代負擔的失衡還有少子化的人力荒造成了這一個很嚴重的這個破口所以他提出了三項建議包括建立全民基礎的保費然後將資產納入課徵還有善用AI來補強醫療的人力這個是他的一個建議"},{"start":551.633,"end":574.087,"text":"那另外呢我們的這個前衛生署的副署長張宏仁張副署長他有提出說如果真的無法這個調漲健保費用的話那能不能夠用商保不為健保的模式由政府來擔任最終風險的承擔者設計具有商業保險特性的政策性附加險來解決相關的問題"},{"start":576.348,"end":603.164,"text":"那其實這個禮拜金管會彭主委他也有在財政委員會質詢的時候 備詢的時候針對健保財務改革也有討論到以資產取代股利來收保費他同時這個彭主委也有提到可以考慮商保協同健保的模式然後這個想法其實有慢慢的大家會進入到討論的階段那針對這個健保的裁員其實我也非常的關心"},{"start":603.644,"end":617.994,"text":"那這次在總質詢的時候也請教了院長問的補充補充保費調整的情形那那個時候卓院長的答覆是說應該有能力者來多負擔的方向來調整所以目前"},{"start":619.395,"end":636.703,"text":"根據這個左院長指示還有綜合大家最近的一些意見想要請這個部長來多從這個相關的方向來調整第一個就是是否考量以資產為課程的基礎第二個是否能夠考慮推動商保協同健保"},{"start":638.044,"end":659.134,"text":"第三個是能否打開這個補充保費的上限這是另外一個議題包括五千萬以上都還可以更高那最後是不是能夠考慮從相關的稅捐來補充那因為時間的關係我們是不是可以請部長在兩個月裡面提供書面的報告讓委員會跟我們辦公室來做參考"},{"start":660.492,"end":682.745,"text":"謝謝委員確實因為隨著高齡人口的增加我們的醫療的支出越來越成長但是收入上相對的沒有辦法跟得上以這個我們明年的健保的總額支出大概會來到9883億但是以我們今年的推估今年的收入大概"},{"start":683.993,"end":705.326,"text":"只是近9000億沒有辦法超過9000億所以馬上明年的缺口馬上就會呈現有八九百億的年度缺口但是因為我們有過去的累積節餘所以明年的保費還可以維持在安全準備金是一到三個月的範圍裡面所以明年的保費是不會調整但是再往後這個還是會成長"},{"start":708.268,"end":724.203,"text":"支出一定還會成長所以整個健保的財務的這個問題呢還是必須持續的來討論所以剛剛您提的這些方向我們都會納入一起來評估好希望這樣可以讓部長好睡一點那最後一點點時間就是針對於這些"},{"start":727.486,"end":749.335,"text":"新生兒篩檢的部分含病是大家一直非常關心那其實我們很期待說現在有一些是屬於法定的補助項目有些是智慧項目像SMA其實也都有要務是不是可以請衛部來研議擴增含病公費新生兒篩檢的項目那另外可以定期的來用制度化的方式來檢討新生的項目"},{"start":749.96,"end":769.288,"text":"好跟委員報告我們現在大概有像您提到的有21項的新生兒公費篩檢大概18項都跟罕病相關那這些篩檢的一個大原則是第一個他要有藥可以治療篩檢才會有意義就後面要有治療啦但是隨著這個科技的進步這些藥也不便宜"},{"start":769.728,"end":789.709,"text":"所以這個藥要怎麼樣支付我們也需要做嚴謹的醫療科技評估這些基因治療的藥都很貴所以像您提到的SMA經過了大概一年的討論跟HTA的評估已經確定明年會納入公費篩檢因為現在也有藥物對應的治療"},{"start":790.41,"end":791.752,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長也謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face37dc1974c106a44e63fe2012470c75420834c22697b3aa2a3e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:59:02 - 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主委早 主委這個前幾天我想我們工程會有修正一個採購評選委員會的評分標準那這裡面包含說採購加分項目包含這個依照丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原工作的廠商依照貢獻程度來採購加分那我也跟你們調閱了一下有參與到這個所謂728跟這個丹納斯颱風的災後復原工作的廠商的名單其實"},{"start":37.853,"end":65.134,"text":"都非常有名都非常大間非常多廠商跟企業參與包含說慈濟也有參與那現在正在這個風口浪尖上的黃昌營造他也有參與那還有很多的公司都有參與那我問的是說今天把這個丹拉斯颱風列入所謂加分項目那未來其他的災後復原工作參與的廠商要不要也加入以及包含說像那個後來這個馬太安西岡煙色湖的問題"},{"start":66.311,"end":89.759,"text":"我看到這個廠商名單裡面有很多據我知道的也很多也參與了那個這個花蓮的災後重建的工作他們也捐了非常多的積蓄到現場去救助等等的所以我要問的主委意思是說今天特別把這個丹拉斯台風728豪雨的災後復原工作列入加分項目那未來參與其他政府相關災後復原工作的廠商會不會列入這個加分項目"},{"start":91.034,"end":113.807,"text":"報告因為當初這個嘉南這邊房屋受損的數量很多總數大概六萬那真正需要去修繕的也很多所以一時之間找不到那麼多廠商來做所以才工程會協調中央很多部會每個部會他們都有很多公務工程在做所以請這些廠商"},{"start":114.767,"end":129.841,"text":"集合起來分配到各區包括嘉義縣應該有8個鄉鎮台南市有17個區分配下去有的是做事者他們免費幫他做那有的是透過台南市政府"},{"start":130.641,"end":150.409,"text":"來媒合來媒合所以收入錢也比較少那因為他們停下來本身的工作所以我們才說他這個有盡到一定的企業社會的責任那原本我們的評選辦法裡面針對企業社會責任就要考量了所以特別針對這290家那麼頒給這個感謝狀那將來他在參與公共工程"},{"start":157.372,"end":183.297,"text":"投標如果是評選的時候就給他加分數未來如果類似情形工程會 省產會這麼做未來如果類似他透過我們一定的程序來招募來協助那麼而且來評選那我們也會這樣做因為我具體來講就是包含因為今年光是這兩一個就是丹納斯很嚴重嘛再來就是我們那個馬太安溪那個驗生壺事件後也很多的廠商投入機具我只是說"},{"start":184.54,"end":201.301,"text":"要當然要放入CSR標準這都沒有問題我沒有意見我覺得很好那我說什麼樣的事件跟什麼樣的標準參與救難的廠商救災的廠商或復原工作廠商他們能夠因為這樣子被加分我覺得這是一個標準啦我覺得這個是工程會要跟你講清楚的"},{"start":203.354,"end":213.701,"text":"當然是的時候因為都有跟個別部會的部會跟廠商之間都有聯繫而且明確有簽約有簽約所以這樣去做這個"},{"start":216.29,"end":243.678,"text":"感謝然後加分是都很清楚那馬太安西運社會因為是因為狀況因為受災很嚴重所以各地都進去大小廠商都進去因為那種個人戶企業社甚至很大的廠商也有都進去這部分我們可能要研究一下因為當時沒有很確定說哪一個廠商做什麼事情說哪幾天並沒有只是很感謝那麼多廠商進駐還有很多各縣市政府"},{"start":244.358,"end":263.465,"text":"各縣市的環保局的清潔隊也都進去我們看很多現場是很多所以這部分我們在研究我的意思是說如果類似將來還要到動員廠商放下工作去做我們特別指定的工作的話那我們會比照這一次來考慮加分的方式"},{"start":263.945,"end":281.714,"text":"好 主委謝謝 因為我今天會特別提這也是因為在這個290這間廠商裡面當然他們除了去幫助過丹拉斯颱風之外也有很多廠商也跟我反映他們其實一樣的名單裡面他們也重複的在這個提供重大機具投入到這個花蓮的這個問題裡面 所以他們覺得說如果"},{"start":282.935,"end":294.936,"text":"當然那颱風這樣子的一個狀他也的確是台灣百年難得見的颱風造成這麼大的損害馬太安溪這個驗射壺也是我們以前沒有預想過會發生這樣的事情所以大家的確出錢出力的這麼多企業投入那如果這些"},{"start":296.468,"end":312.79,"text":"對他們來講既然談到裁縫可以加分那如果去投入花蓮的這部分也可以加分或是未來萬一不幸又有其他事件可以加分那我覺得這個標準大家希望說能夠有一個比較明確的方向依據大家可以更樂意的去幫政府去處理這種災厄復原工作"},{"start":314.512,"end":338.609,"text":"好 那再來我看一下我們原物量上漲問題我想大家都很關心這個問題我其實台灣這幾年公共工程的流費標的情況也非常嚴重那包含說比較重點當然是我們交通部跟我們經濟部幾項那到底這種超過流費標三次然後照標五次以上的決標的案件未來到底我們工程會要怎麼樣面對或是說我們在跟各部會溝通的時候預算上有問題呢還是說因為預算執行期程拉太長"},{"start":339.429,"end":354.921,"text":"所以一開始設定的金額是這樣子那後面因為物價上漲所以他必須去面對要不斷的追加不斷追加包含我們剛剛提到的台北台中都有高雄的捷運台中捷運都是類似的問題所以不知道工程會在這種預算的節制上或管制上有沒有什麼樣的想法副主委來跟你說"},{"start":359.717,"end":383.18,"text":"我想有關公共工程廢標流標的確實是一個很嚴肅的問題當然工程會有做系統性的分析大概牽涉到經費不足或者是合約條款不合理工期太少大致上都是這些問題"},{"start":384.761,"end":413.383,"text":"目前我們協助的這個模式基本上面就是說如果比較簡易的當然就有各個他的主管機關自己去處理那如果他的這個金額超過五千萬那麼留標兩次那原則上我們就從這案子裡面那我們會個案來協助所以目前我們會把我們個案協助裡面再發現的問題再回饋給其他的機關大概是透過這樣一個循環的方式來處理那當然"},{"start":414.804,"end":427.969,"text":"這個廢油爆問題當然也有牽涉到整個因為我們政府採購要必須要三家才能開標的問題這是我們系統性的來處理來 副主委跟主委我也一樣就是說其實這個問題我們希望公司會積極一點的角色就是說我覺得"},{"start":429.144,"end":452.146,"text":"我們光列這幾項最大問題是什麼就是它的工作期程很長就是我們公共工程都拖很久10年20年至少都這樣很多大型工程都這樣那所以10年前的物價跟10年後的物價當然不能比它當然後續不斷在追加所以我希望工程會至少在扮演的這個管控的角度上至少讓它各單位能夠把這個期程縮短一點不要說每次"},{"start":453.268,"end":459.938,"text":"蓋個捷運 蓋個什麼東西都要蓋好久好久那當然你錢就一直不斷增加嘛永樂基會縮短各單位在做事情的這個時效"},{"start":461.817,"end":485.72,"text":"這個也是委員點到非常核心的問題就是說我們事後去處理一些禮約爭議大概最核心的問題是工期的問題那工期機關當時在定工期的時候有的時候他因為很多因素嘛他可能政策的問題或是未定的問題那很多是因為他施工過程裡面要變更"},{"start":486.841,"end":505.48,"text":"或加上其他的很多因素所以供期就變成是一個非常嚴肅的問題所以我們也會透過一個在指引的方式就是說你當時在這個設計的時候那個供期的那個訂定要非常的準確那就可以減免後面的一個相關的爭議了"},{"start":506.041,"end":526.957,"text":"好啦最後剛剛那個富水你提到這個所謂的三家廠商開票的規定喔之前我們工程會本來是預計想要把這個三家的這個規定把它刪掉然後提出新的採購法那本來是預計要4月要預告草案那我不知道現在這個草案到哪裡了已經預告了為什麼會議記錄不能提供給我們來參考"},{"start":529.762,"end":554.738,"text":"這個我們有跟本席有我們9月12有去含有去跟公眾要資料說辦公座談會我們11月才預告最近才預告因為有修正然後也要簽到行政院來通報然後預告所以11月才預告好我們希望這個快一點啦因為這個當初4月希望預告嘛現在又過了半年到現在才開始有這個相關的進度因為確實"},{"start":556.559,"end":575.473,"text":"三家的這個問題我們需要幫 也要幫業者想一個問題大家怕圖利嘛我們現在就是怕圖利所以當初還會有所謂三家的問題那既然要把這個東西拿掉那怎麼樣避免業者陷入圖利的陷阱裡面我覺得這個是共產會要做的事情就是機關如果編列預算的時候就要公告啦"},{"start":577.534,"end":602.192,"text":"讓業者盡快知道這個機關有這樣的採購計畫那將來他也要徵詢相關業者的意見所以讓這個透明公開然後讓業者提早知道準備標期我想就減少這樣的會圖利或者僅限於特定人來標的問題那這個到時候採購法也請委員能夠大力支持好 謝謝 謝謝主委好 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目前關戶鄉的中濟宅是由內政部在負責那他也到關戶鄉辦了很多場說明會那聽取這個關戶鄉鄉民包括"},{"start":288.436,"end":309.847,"text":"這個當地的部落還有這個相關的這個災民那麼有找到兩個地方一個是舊的台塘的宿舍那個宿舍是應該是三層樓但是底下它是有營業但是上面也本來是員工宿舍大概應該有差不多20戶左右"},{"start":310.507,"end":338.354,"text":"另外也是在應該是大晉國小附近有一塊地大概1.5公頃那會蓋這個中繼宅讓目前房子已經完全沒辦法住的買起來的那些作為中繼宅那至於說將來那個耕地比較重災區那裡土砂有的已經到6米高4米高了那些變成一個很頭痛的問題"},{"start":339.794,"end":348.644,"text":"所以是不是要有什麼地方可以提供給族人或當地災民作為異地耕種的地方這個是可以思考的方式我覺得這個部分中繼宅目前已經成為共識了也取得政府的一個共識"},{"start":359.034,"end":383.314,"text":"那我想就是尊重在地人的意見那我只是說針對那一些在莫拉克災禍重建條例廢止之後依然處在危險安全抗議地區的我們是不是可以請工程會來主責要做一個災害復原重建的一個平台會議邀請這些原鄉的公所還有我們中央有關的機關一起來重啟這個會議來幫助他們 可以嗎"},{"start":391.009,"end":395.092,"text":"現在秀出來這些包括高雄茂林高雄屏東台東都有這些我們還沒有處理好我們願意來跟高雄還有屏東縣市台東屏東縣市政府來商討看看"},{"start":406.863,"end":429.214,"text":"那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘因為我還有第二個問題要請教這一次我其實只是要表達就是我們這一次有兩個條例特別條例那他到底他適合的適用的這些災區我不曉得有哪些啦那主委您是不是可以簡單的講一下"},{"start":431.263,"end":455.651,"text":"那是風災的特別條例有把直轄市直轄市的園民鄉 園民就是茂林 南下 桃園那個有納入我是希望說如果他是屬於原住民族地區但是沒有被行政院列為災區我希望工程會也盡力協助好嗎"},{"start":457.499,"end":479.439,"text":"那這一次 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我請中研院廖院長有請廖院長吳委員長院長好先報告主席因為我看到我們以前清大社會所陳志偉教授在現場所以我今天時間可能會縮短首先我要請教要請吳教授上台不用 我怕他問我問題"},{"start":31.829,"end":53.67,"text":"好 這個齊會院長就是日前我們看到也是我們本院的同事歐小黎委員在他社群平台他有發文他說中研院的法律研究所有其中因為在預算書上面有看到兩個研究其一是如何合理選任大法官其二是中共對台法律戰這兩個"},{"start":55.652,"end":80.89,"text":"研究議題那翁小林委員呢他的撰文當中他認為呢中研院法律所做這樣的研究形同淪為賴清德總統的私人律師那我想我們先進行事實的確立再來進行評論跟判斷首先我想請教這個賴清德總統有沒有指定中研院法律所必須要來列入這兩個研究計畫請法律所解釋"},{"start":85.734,"end":108.787,"text":"吳會員 我是法律所所長李建良首先 針對你的問題是剛剛的問題是否好 那我們以通案來說在我們這個中研院如果有新興的計畫因為就我了解我們是學門如果有研究計畫提報上來 由下而上提報給院來審查我們這個審核我們研究主題的程序是什麼呢"},{"start":109.97,"end":126.818,"text":"我先重申一下本所基本上是非常尊重个人的学术自由我们所有的研究计划基本上是由研究人员自己评估对于研究的主题的重要性然后提出计划"},{"start":127.398,"end":146.518,"text":"然后我们通常会是请研究同仁在大概是十月左右的时候提出他们的隔年的研究的需求再由我们来评估说这些的研究主题是不是具有重要性大概基本上是这样刚刚提到的两个"},{"start":147.399,"end":158.23,"text":"這兩個主題基本上都是對於我們台灣社會制度是非常重要的因此也在這樣的一個前提之下他們希望能夠做這樣的研究"},{"start":159.278,"end":177.228,"text":"好 謝謝那我想對不起這個我剛才也強調過眾議院是尊重學術自由那這些題材研究題材都是研究人員自發性的提出來那只要是學術上合理我們絕對都尊重"},{"start":178.068,"end":199.428,"text":"所以這個絕對不是這個中研院院方或是所方要他們做什麼事情都是他們自己認為這個是重要的問題自己提出來的研究是 這個事實我覺得要釐清因為中研院是我們台灣最高研究機構把我們研究機構說成是私人的律師我認為這是對學術研究很重大的侮辱"},{"start":200.902,"end":228.684,"text":"因為不是說哪一個人的律師的問題如果你一個學術機關變成淪為個人所用這都是我們不會認同而且也不應該發生的事情那何況這兩個主題我認為對當今的台灣社會來說至關重要像我們以前清大社會所我的老師其實是謝國雄老師所以如果對我有評論不是找陳志柔老師我們的核心精神以身為度"},{"start":229.545,"end":247.041,"text":"必須要具有社會關懷我們也很希望我們的研究能夠對社會有所貢獻或是能夠引發社會的思考那我們的憲法法庭是已經一年停擺沒有運作了這個大家社會都很關心那中國對台灣的法律戰更是"},{"start":248.567,"end":268.513,"text":"逐漸的更加的嚴重所以我想我們社會對兩個主題都希望我們有更深刻的了解那另外要請教院長的是你也很關切的是您6月30號在中研院學術大會演講你有提到升等考核的標準應該要重視值得提升不應該單純以量來作為一個考量"},{"start":271.767,"end":288.488,"text":"所以我們也提出了敘述性履歷這樣的改革大概上路到現在將近要一年的時間能不能請院長說明一下敘述性的履歷我們如何來幫助未來對於學術的衡量能夠種植也種量"},{"start":289.269,"end":315.507,"text":"这基本的精神就是我们不再是只强调说你出版出版了几篇论文那论文的impact factor多少而是要这个研究人员自己能够论述你在研究中有产生哪些知识的贡献而且包括说你跟别人合作你的角色是什么你贡献哪些东西在这过程当中你必须要界定问题"},{"start":316.027,"end":330.376,"text":"那闡述为什么这个问题我来研究有什么重要性有什么突破性有什么创新性我们希望说他能够论述这些角色这些他的贡献而不是单纯把他的CV拿出来"},{"start":331.264,"end":356.309,"text":"我想很多研究人員都很樂見這樣子的改革就是種植的這個目標但是在實務落實上面我們是如何來進行我們的評審委員有沒有來進行相關的培訓以及所謂的質的審查它有沒有一個標準所有在學術界關於質的審查都是靠專家學者心中的一把尺沒有辦法說做一個很明確的標準"},{"start":357.999,"end":369.364,"text":"那我们这方面我们不断在院内推动也在学主聘审会跟学主聘审会委员强调要以这样的标准也获得大家的认同"},{"start":371.806,"end":391.588,"text":"好我們很關心這個問題也希望能夠逐漸朝這個方向去前進那也擔心是因為我們目前的升等的門檻代表作跟論文書其實還是沒有放寬的所以呢他究竟是會朝向重職不重量還是重職也重量的方向"},{"start":392.489,"end":419.958,"text":"去改變 會不會變成其實為了要面臨這個審查結果研究人員的負擔反而變更多了我們要如何避免這樣子的情況發生我想這是研究人員的一個目標不能把它當作一個負擔所謂負擔通常是你不想做 額外去做才叫做負擔這是你應該做的 本來就是應該努力的目標 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央行副總裁來請嚴副總裁呂市長"},{"start":16.055,"end":34.342,"text":"好今天的主題經濟成長全民共享如何縮短所得差距相對貧窮化的對策現狀真的是如此嗎我們來探討一下想先請教一下衛福部次長你認為經濟成長讓全民共享是以科技電子業為主還是所有的產業都應該語錄均沾的成長"},{"start":36.636,"end":63.533,"text":"包委員這個我想大家都知道經濟成長理論告訴我們一路必須要進展一路進展 謝謝全國上千萬的小資族 對不起全國上千萬的小資族薪水的薪資平時都是省吃儉用好不容易想買一點ETF或上市股票賺點股息或好不容易拿到了獎金想要共享那麼一點點經濟成長的時候卻一下被補充健保保費狠狠的抽一刀"},{"start":64.494,"end":74.294,"text":"讲经不到手补充的宝费先来收割这难道不是与共享经济果实的经济呢精神背道而驰吗您觉得呢"},{"start":75.309,"end":104.23,"text":"包委員關於這個問題我們都在廣徵各方的意見謝謝好 謝謝你因為我知道最近有說要就是暫緩但是補充保費的一個設計本意就是說要補這個漏洞但實際上中低薪與非固定收入的族群變成懲罰性的一個課稅我想希望這個一定要再思考出讓這些勞工小資族能夠真正受惠的一個健保改革我們支持改革"},{"start":104.97,"end":123.841,"text":"我們也支持健保應該要想辦法補漏洞但是不要有懲罰性的或者是拿小資族來開刀這個部分我還是要帶到希望衛福部一定要深切的反映到裡面內部去做檢討因為這一次的暫緩我們很擔心又再一次的重啟整個樣的計畫這部分可以嗎"},{"start":124.609,"end":146.783,"text":"報告委員 我們現在都會來廣徵各方的意見也非常感謝委員對於這個議題的關心 謝謝謝謝市長 今年4月央行楊總裁曾經說過百年免息債 換債的惡霸美債形同倒債10月美國政府關門 美債兩個月暴漲一兆現已38兆 據公開的揭露"},{"start":147.503,"end":172.597,"text":"我國外匯存底約80%甚至高達九成都是美債和歐債這樣的一個資產結構萬一歐美債性貧下調利率動盪台灣會不會一夕的資產大幅的縮水央行是不是應該更積極的調整整個資產的結構多元的佈局我想分散風險副總裁您怎麼說"},{"start":174.468,"end":197.539,"text":"那個報告委員其實我們一直在做資產結構的調整我們會是國內國際的經濟情況的情況我們經常也在做這一方面的調整我們並不是永遠是維持在那個固定的水準我想在這邊還是要提醒滾動式的檢討政府一邊呼籲要全民共享經濟成果一邊卻讓全民的國家資產"},{"start":199.623,"end":219.566,"text":"曝險在這樣子的債務風險極高的一個歐美市場我想這樣子的政策是否會有點矛盾我還是希望你們要好好的檢討央行打房打了七八波結果一年來陸續有建商倒著倒死的死傷的傷整個建業愁雲慘霧一般的民眾還是買不起"},{"start":220.916,"end":248.623,"text":"到底在这一次呢我们看到连台北市房租都直直涨打房到最后结果不但没有全民共享经济成果反倒是压缩了一大票的民众产业年轻人的生存空间央行是不是该调整打房的措施不然打房继续这样下去既影响了经济成果更没有让全民共享这样的打房有意义吗我先请问副总裁您认为这一波的打房"},{"start":249.423,"end":254.636,"text":"有打到痛点有让所谓的房价下调吗"},{"start":255.56,"end":281.835,"text":"那個報告委員央行的角度是看我們的我們不希望我們的信用多過度的集中在房地產這是我們一向的原則所以我們每一次也都會在理事會開會之前我們會檢視我們過去的政策的效果情形然後我們也在試單的時候我們會做了一些調整從過去的幾次經驗我們並不是一直在打而且打盤並不是央行的目的央行在管控他那個金融我們不希望金融資金融"},{"start":282.495,"end":303.652,"text":"但是你們政策上的執行跟實際上的我們實務上遇到的狀況就有很大的差距嘛當然央行有央行的策略但是政府賴總統說的要協助青年能夠買房要打房讓房價不要這麼高我們看不到啊今天如果你是在打擊這些投資客"},{"start":304.452,"end":332.062,"text":"甚至是二亿炒房的建商我们支持这样的打房拜托你多打你打一百波我也支持但现在的打房就本席所看到从2016年到现在整个房价的上升是百分之百幅度是百分之百之高而现在我们看到的有的建商倒了中小建商倒了大建商还是一样有办法在这个产业上继续的存活在"},{"start":333.194,"end":362.806,"text":"所以你根本就不是让整个整体的房价下降我们看到的是民众还是买不起房房价并没有降只是比较少人买了这样的打房政策我认为要检讨拜托真正打到痛点打到投资客打到炒房真正让房价下跌才是我们希望看到的我们希望央行这边真的要好好的去探讨一下谢谢委员的指导"},{"start":364.894,"end":368.272,"text":"谢谢罗委员接下来我们请严宽恒"}]}},{"id":"165416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facefb462476545a15be4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c06f2ef179986d190cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:46:47 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謝謝主席 主席我們有請內政部吳次長 檢政署理副署長 事務發部王司長有請召會好"},{"start":11.056,"end":36.179,"text":"三位好 相信各位都很清楚為什麼本席今天會拍今天的專報我從普發現今正式上路以來有太多的詐騙的訊息跟網站在坊間流傳每天幾乎都有新聞發生都有新聞報導說民眾被詐騙的案例因此非常有必要邀請各部會來到立法院跟全國國人來說明清楚機關的防詐的作為"},{"start":37.12,"end":64.342,"text":"那本期在這邊也要特別責成我們警政署還有速發部由於目前許多詐騙的訊息都是透過假網站的這個假網站這個詐騙連結因此接獲情資跟通報一定要在最短的時間內封鎖相關的網站以及通知社群網站業者下架詐騙的訊息越短的時間阻斷我們詐騙管道就能夠就越能夠減少"},{"start":65.387,"end":80.673,"text":"民眾被詐騙的機率那我想接下來我們請內政部長跟那個警政署副市長留下來那個本席有接下來要請教兩位有關於基層員警的這個權益的問題繼續跟各位討論"},{"start":85.675,"end":106.527,"text":"首先我想要請教一下吳次長你還記得我們十月份十月中旬的時候本席在內政委員會在這邊也當面質詢我們這個劉部長跟部長爭取說關於警消移民空勤的這個聖夜圍牢津貼必須要納入值班備勤人員以及加班費的餘數必須要能夠並計確保基層的權益請問我們現在目前的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":113.328,"end":116.771,"text":"那委員我是不是請警政署把處理情形來跟您說明時間暫停"},{"start":131.082,"end":146.661,"text":"跟委員報告 目前委員所提的這一個建議那我的理解是警政署已經通知各直轄市縣市警察局針對這一個建議那麼也就是深夜"},{"start":147.97,"end":175.147,"text":"深夜加班會這個部分大概需要多少經費那正在匯集這個相關的資料那進一步的會議可能近日內會再召開然後做出最後的一個決定因為這個應該這樣講我們人事是必須先了解所有的經費大概需要多少錢"},{"start":176.243,"end":200.638,"text":"然後再跟提報部再轉報院編了這個相關的預算然後才有辦法再進行有關這個原有的深夜加班會以外在那個衛出派出所的這個部分也在 才會再做補花郭先生這個部分 麻煩我們同事要記得因為本市上次質詢完之後非常多這個基層的警消人員回應非常好 他說"},{"start":202.742,"end":217.251,"text":"他們非常贊同這個事 他說這是慈善的公道因為現在改善部也要責任相關單位盡快來推動讓這些 因為接下來的基站真的要等很久了那為什麼 因為接下來本市局問到這一塊就是說"},{"start":219.736,"end":228.864,"text":"我記得之前也有委員質詢過我們署長我們現在的基層發現一個很大的問題就是說到今年3月底我們全國偵查組的預估缺額達到649人缺額率高達將近14%這個對基層打擊犯罪的人力還有我國的資產的穩定是一個非常嚴重的警訊"},{"start":245.718,"end":272.724,"text":"特別是現在刑事警察也負擔非常重的這個詐騙的案件那當時我們署長也承諾說會提出四大的進進方案嘛並且在三個月內提出提升那個警勤人員刑事家籍的研議方案不過從署長當時大眼到現在也過半年我們到現在還沒有看到這個警勤人員的刑事家籍的方案那媒體報導說很多基層的這些刑事警察都在抱怨"},{"start":273.223,"end":302.934,"text":"你除了待遇跟你的工作量不成正比外公文多然後評比多也是造成我們刑事人力荒的這個阻暈如果說沒有辦法有效的解決問題這個會嚴重打擊刑警們的士氣也會造成新進員警不願意投入刑警的這個行列難以這個傳承刑事經驗如果持續惡化下去這對我們國內的治安這很大影響這部分我相信護書地方好護教地方好應該都很清楚這個部分是來回應一下"},{"start":303.362,"end":330.478,"text":"目前我們刑事加擠的研議的進度在哪邊跟委員來報告我們刑事加擠的部分他本來就配備有這個所謂的繁重次重還有單純這個加擠大概是在我的理解好像是在八千七千六千塊這樣的一個差距那委員剛剛所指導的我們其實警政署也發現"},{"start":331.428,"end":341.836,"text":"我們認為這個差距可以再把它加大一點也就是說繁重的是不是把它提高到一萬多塊然後這個比較次重的是不是維持在八千"},{"start":342.681,"end":362.293,"text":"比較單純的 再維持在另外一個等級目前正朝著這樣的一個方式詢問各縣市警察局的意見然後來做是不是要做這樣的調查我記得那時候四月份問的到現在都現在都十一月了 好像要報檔了我了解 委員 但是我們在紀審 其實也在想說署長就給我們答應了 為什麼要報你 還沒看你的東西署長你該請車禁 平時他們會來欠缺"},{"start":370.598,"end":398.273,"text":"那個副局長 副局長應該很清楚吧現在刑事警察的短缺 副局長應該很清楚吧這個 我是非常清楚啦對 或是因為工作越來越多 勤務越來越多 他們會覺得說欸 這個 我發現那個刑事荒 個性是都非常的嚴重欸這個要趕快來解決那個刑事人員 刑事警察人員他的勤務是特別如果未來這一塊沒有辦法補上的話 那未來對整個不管是治安啦 還包括我們要推動業務 都會很大的影響齁"},{"start":399.673,"end":427.032,"text":"我們想在這裏最好就是守護我們基層軍警消人員的權利就是守護這個國家安全的最重要的根基那我們想行政院不願意依法編列我們軍人加薪的部分然後也不願意依法編列這個警消人員的這個退休金的預算你最起碼對你限職的人員的部分你當時的承諾也應該趕快做到所以這邊是不是在11月"},{"start":428.953,"end":456.975,"text":"在以前我們請警政署這邊要承諾11月底以前要提出整個完整的這個刑事加節的方案讓我們提升我們這個記者營養的這個士氣也可以提升他們營養的待遇可不可以跟委員報告 委員所講的這個部分我回去會跟要求署的單位來做配合啦我也會跟署長來做一個報告盡量在11月底啦好 感謝副主席相關的進度也會跟委員做報告感謝副主席 謝謝那謝謝各位 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8e98bf75dfcce43d4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c06aa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:20:23 - 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量化就這個宣導量化的部分這個資料是比較細微的我們可能要再統計一下但是我們是貫徹整個族群所以表示目前你們有量化嗎你不曉得說到底我們這樣子的一些"},{"start":108.623,"end":133.091,"text":"廣告試詐的廣告下去之後到底有什麼樣的成效我們現在看到都是一些數字那我們做了什麼我們做了什麼做了什麼但是實際上的成效是什麼目前警政署這邊是沒有任何的報告嗎根本報告我們就是看整個詐欺犯罪他大幅的他有沒有下降那剛剛也有委員問到我們目前在案件的部分"},{"start":133.846,"end":154.364,"text":"是下降了大概三成然後在這個財損的部分這個是真的有下降還是說沒有統計到這當然有下降我覺得這個部分我們必須要去了解清楚尤其是像我們剛剛講了這麼多的市詐的一個宣傳作為那目前為止請問一下知道說哪一種市詐的這個作為方式最有效"},{"start":156.351,"end":184.089,"text":"視察的部分因為剛剛我們有提了各種方式嘛次長在報告的時候跟我們報告了其實每一個管道都有它特定的受造那目前在看的話電視是一個比較有效的方式當然因為電視成本高嘛那所以你們真正投注在電視的經費大概佔多少百分比大概佔多少目前我們在電視的部分投入的預算大概是1.5億每一年"},{"start":184.724,"end":187.585,"text":"一年1.5億那這一次針對這一次的這個呢那個我們的這個普發現金的房價有沒有特別在因為其實我們在我們的這次的這個普發現金的特別條例裡面你們也有編列媒體宣傳的費用我們也都沒有刪所以這個部分應該是針對普發現金的部分應該有特別的媒體宣傳的費用才有我們這次在電視媒體的部分大概有特別拍了一支影片"},{"start":211.614,"end":237.652,"text":"在電視的部分網路大概是16支拍影片跟最後我剛講的就是它的KPI是什麼我覺得警政署必須要去量化這樣的一個數據出來你才能夠知道未來我要用什麼樣的宣傳方式才是最有效的否則的話我們只是把錢撒出去做了一些影片做了一些廣告到底有沒有針對被詐騙的人有真的幫助跟感受尤其是像我們知道最近有很多的釣魚簡訊"},{"start":239.333,"end":248.495,"text":"告訴你說你連結到哪個網站所以你可以事實上造成很多的這樣子的人被詐騙那請問一下我們這個署理或是我們內政部有沒有針對簡訊這個部分來投放呢目前我們對於這樣的詐騙簡訊的處理方式如果是這個電話簡訊的部分我們大概都拜託這個NCC在做進一步的處理那NCC有嗎"},{"start":270.952,"end":293.766,"text":"他今天有代表另外如果是網路的部分因為我們目前看到的其實都是釣魚網站的簡訊我們自己政府並沒有這樣的一個簡訊那我要表達就是說如果我們自己有簡訊先通知我們所有的這個民眾大家他看到詐騙的時候他就會有所警惕了因為你已經先看到正確的嘛那看到詐騙你就會有所警惕"},{"start":294.451,"end":303.822,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是也要考慮一下未來針對這樣的一個簡訊通知我們的全民我覺得這是最快也最有效的一個方式而且可以普及到全民"},{"start":304.209,"end":328.257,"text":"那當然你說分眾分眾那個我不反對那也是可以另外再做但是我覺得簡訊這一塊事實上也可以讓一些尤其一些年紀比較長的或是一些偏鄉的他事實上還是接得到簡訊他還是可以看得到那另外針對這個部分就是我們在165的這個打造儀表版普發現金有一個防詐專區那剛剛次長也特別提到了就是說我們普發現金的成果"},{"start":328.993,"end":355.056,"text":"但是我發覺這是我在10月30號所結錄下來的一個不發現金的成果請次長看一下跟你剛剛報告到10月11月10號的成果一模一樣數字都沒有改那請問到底是這10來天都沒有發生這樣子這個被詐騙被這個平台的通報下架平台廣告或者是停權的還是說你們資料沒有更新"},{"start":357.489,"end":357.509,"text":"好"},{"start":365.287,"end":386.192,"text":"這邊向委員報告這個因為這個我們每週都會請各縣市回報我們這個移除下架件數那這邊這樣已經不只一週啊已經大概快兩週了那我們這邊其實最新統計的話是下架56件還是沒有變那社群帳號的部分目前的話我們最新統計就從上禮拜五這邊統計的話是"},{"start":388.913,"end":404.99,"text":"60個帳號好那你看看喔你們的報告是自本年9月12號起到11月10號值是這個數字喔這個涉嫌詐欺的帳號是50個對吧所以說表示你們在給我們內政委員會的報告裡就是造假啦"},{"start":406.291,"end":432.337,"text":"那為什麼沒有 為什麼沒有更新既然你做這樣的更新不是要讓大家知道成果嗎這個統計的時間有一個落差啦我想這個我們再更新就好對啊 你不是 你現在11月10號嘛對 我的意思是說由小見大啦連這個地方你們都做這樣子沒有馬上更新到對 沒有馬上更新到代表說其他要做這個詐騙的防治或是試詐一定都還有很多的地方需要改進的啦"},{"start":433.299,"end":449.479,"text":"是不是整個人針對次長就是詐騙其實大家都非常痛恨的而且現在有深受其害那我覺得我們內政部真的一定要用這樣的一個方式來去處理好嗎那最後再一個問題請教金管會的王允忠副局長那次長您可以次長沒關係您可以請回"},{"start":452.066,"end":467.443,"text":"委員是不是容我補充一下剛剛委員特別垂行到我們謹慎署有沒有透過簡訊的方式來進行防詐剛剛業務單位提供來了我們今年大概花了1.2億通的簡訊的防詐那表示我們都沒有詐騙集團厲害為什麼"},{"start":469.105,"end":475.109,"text":"我們的簡訊防詐的效果好像沒有詐騙集團的效果這個我覺得之後可能要評估一下啦到底問題出在哪我們會再做進階的一個評估時間我問一下這個金管會的副局長就是針對這個太子集團的這個洗錢超過是屬意這個事情那其實我們一般啦到那個現在只要你去銀行領個錢幾十萬大概就會被銀行"},{"start":496.983,"end":516.795,"text":"問這是不是你你自己本人要你有沒有被詐騙大概要程序非常的繁複即使我領我自己戶頭的錢但是為什麼這個太子集團啊他這樣子動輒就是幾十億幾這個幾億的都沒有關係那是銀行在睡覺嗎尤其是這一次是金管會說你們已經通報52次的那為什麼52次來都沒有做精檢跟委員報告"},{"start":523.874,"end":533.798,"text":"那銀行是在一定的金額的通報50萬以上他就會通報這個調查局那另外如果發現有異常樣態那這樣子沒有異常嗎就是這幾年來有45億的詐騙在台灣洗錢這樣沒有異常你們也通報52次了不是嗎對那52次你們都沒有啟動經檢嗎"},{"start":545.064,"end":569.366,"text":"中間當然是會有一些精檢啦有嗎 你這邊看起來是沒有做精檢啦不是針對這個專案不是針對這個專案去做精檢表示說你們都已經通報52次了結果也沒做精檢然後結果現在是美國一通知你們就馬上下去做精檢所以到底現在我們是怎樣是只要美國說我們才會做那我們自己的國家主權在哪裡那還有我們的這個金管會的職責到底在哪裡"},{"start":570.869,"end":593.476,"text":"是跟委員報告因為他這個集團他的公司很多那所以每一個關聯戶都不太一樣那所以就比較難去歸戶來做一個這個那比較難所以就不做是嗎我們做的是一般的精檢但是沒有做的是針對這一個案件經過這一次那你們覺得你們做的一般精檢有用嗎"},{"start":594.964,"end":615.002,"text":"我們至少可以回頭去檢視一下我們銀行做的有沒有那你知道這樣已經造成多少人被詐騙嗎台灣已經變成一個詐騙集團的洗錢天堂那這樣子我們還說我們回過頭去看看有沒有什麼問題那我覺得金管會作為這樣子的一個主管金管是非常失職的非常沒有擔當"},{"start":616.004,"end":635.227,"text":"你現在把它推給銀行事實上銀行通報你說合法合規但是呢事實上我們就是被詐騙而且還是被美國發現通知我們的所以這到底是什麼樣的問題喔而且我覺得這個我們的這個金管會的這個實質的失能已經造成我們台灣這個詐騙集團的橫行洗錢的橫行這個絕對不是這麼簡單說我們之後檢討一下那請問金管會這邊你們有沒有全力要求銀行啟動更嚴格的加強"},{"start":644.485,"end":661.606,"text":"禁止審查的EDD或者是主動限制相關帳戶的交易額度跟委員報告那事實上現在一直都這麼做的都一直做對 根據那但是還是還是被詐騙了45億在台灣那所以到底做的是"},{"start":662.393,"end":669.419,"text":"是還不到位還是說我們的法律還不夠嚴謹那個451不是被詐騙是他境外匯進來的錢然後他拿去買的對啊那這些錢是什麼是詐騙而來的錢吧這些錢是怎麼樣的因為是調查局他們在司法檢調機關在調查的總之這一件事情我覺得金管會真的要好好的去檢討到底要怎麼樣來去防範這樣的事情而不是說這種雲淡風輕的都不關你們的事"},{"start":692.711,"end":700.942,"text":"可以嗎是好我們會檢討是不是也針對這個部分你們之後要怎麼做是不是一個月之內給我一個報告好嗎是好謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"165404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610facee82ac0b70c9e6fa44fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c068fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:08:23 - 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移民署兩位副署長委員好好"},{"start":17.096,"end":27.359,"text":"想要請教兩位這幾年我們看到的就是外籍移工常常因為不懂法規被詐騙集團利用變成車手或者人頭賬戶那其實已經成為一種就是犯罪集團的代理化的一個現象就是犯罪者躲在"},{"start":42.714,"end":67.864,"text":"幕後利用移工當替代的犯罪所以想要請教一下我們警政署這樣的歧視有沒有列為情資監控的重點這一年偵探的監訴還有上游招募者到案的比例起訴和定罪率有多少有數據嗎"},{"start":70.636,"end":79.385,"text":"跟委員報告我們外籍移工包括新住民這一塊其實他目前被詐騙的這個狀況謹慎署件數都有統計那當然他這個數據我今天沒帶來是不是容我會後再提供給委員"},{"start":92.061,"end":99.645,"text":"為了避免這些移工或者是新住民或者甚至是持觀光簽證來到台灣的這些外籍人士他們被淪為詐騙集團的這些車手所以我們在相關的宣導活動部分大概都有做了相關的宣導"},{"start":114.491,"end":127.194,"text":"那移工的部分我們還結合移工的管理者也就是這個工廠的負責人透過跟勞動部來配合然後透過這個管道再去做宣導的一個加強"},{"start":128.377,"end":155.28,"text":"所以我想這個相關的情資的一個掌握我們是都有掌握的那至於有偵破的案件確實有那因為這些數據比較細部是不是容我會後再提供給委員做參考 以上你講的這些我們都知道我們要的是具體說有效的因為你講的再來就是針對我們的賬戶的部分如果就是說"},{"start":156.755,"end":159.898,"text":"我要問你的是移工他們離境或者通報失聯他們的名下的銀行帳戶是不是可以在合法的程序下可以立即列入就是警示或者停留的交易就像說很多就是在台中我們都看到免費的信卡還有一個攤位讓給他們還有離境的帳戶的收購"},{"start":183.957,"end":188.803,"text":"然後非法的這個匯款的點這樣子的管道這一年來你們有整合稽查結果是如何是不是已經跟銀行建立好就是離境帳戶的"},{"start":201.004,"end":222.851,"text":"疫警機制或者高風險的交易及時通報我們要的是你們的工作的有效的工作的點你講那些什麼人什麼人我們比你清楚但是不用再講那個好不好報告委員這個部分比較細節一點我是不是請刑事局來做個答案可以"},{"start":224.815,"end":247.726,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那就是有關外籍移工的部分就涉及到兩個一個就是電話一個就是帳戶那就是人離境了之後他的原來的手機還有他的帳戶都還在使用這個我們已經有跟打炸指揮中心反映這個問題那現在都還在跨部會的協調當中那我們同時也跟移民署"},{"start":248.646,"end":261.074,"text":"做一個借接因為這些人可能提領之後他馬上就離境所以我們會盡快的找出辦法就是在他還沒離境之前就能夠把這些外籍的車手能夠逮捕"},{"start":262.635,"end":270.778,"text":"你們都請大家都跨部會合作但是你們跨的部會不知道跨到哪裡去因為離境的帳戶還是被詐騙繼續用所以還有感覺就是說我們政府沒有跨部會來去處理才會造成就是現在的就跟自己政府在養這些人頭帳戶"},{"start":286.243,"end":290.486,"text":"這樣子是合理的嗎另外就是說我們是要跨部會今天有各部會都來所以目前我們警政署說只是跟移民署跟其他我們金管會銀行電信業者就是可疑的賬戶異常有沒有真正做到就是及時的"},{"start":309.116,"end":313.278,"text":"凍結處理有沒有說平均多少還有現在AI就是防炸的模型有沒有針對外籍的就是外語的社團有跨境金流的特徵去調查我們要的是你們真正的執行的效率還有方法不只說我們在用我們在用沒有一個具體的"},{"start":335.598,"end":347.953,"text":"是那這部分我們會後再把我們警政署在有關打擊就是在偵辦這個外籍移工還有外籍車手的相關的數據跟做法來在會後再提供給委員來做參考"},{"start":350.268,"end":356.811,"text":"還有像做在臉書啊LINE啊還有就是抖音上面有很多就是外語的宣傳廣告這些的你們有去查嗎有沒有說就是熱區的名單就像說移工的注射或者中間公司傳遞的市場周邊有沒有固定的聯合的稽查這個部分"},{"start":377.981,"end":383.665,"text":"因為不只是我們提出來還有很多你看這些雖然是說你們看不懂但是都是因為大家都利用這樣子來去做這件事情普遍你們怎麼去查有沒有這部分第一個就是宣導那當然跟這些外籍的那個仲介公司那我在申辦的時候我們也會來加強來宣導那稽查的部分會結合移民署都有在各個縣市警察局都有在稽查"},{"start":409.246,"end":412.207,"text":"但是效果 你們稽查的點還有這個樣子的效果在哪裡因為我們看到的就是像我們移民署這邊就是也面對詐騙集團就是假冒我們的官方散布一些假消息移民署有沒有在一時之間把所有的是多國語言"},{"start":433.912,"end":437.995,"text":"來去做就是宣傳讓這些就是說在台灣的外籍人士他們怎麼樣去得到這樣的信息因為大家都講說都是外籍人變成車手變成詐騙集團的一個犯罪的"},{"start":455.046,"end":468.015,"text":"的對象或者是變成他們的犯罪的手法但是我們我們移民署跟警政署有沒有跨部會這樣子把多國的議員來去做宣傳讓大家更知道呢有嗎跟委員報告有關這部分我們跟警政署包含防詐騙這邊都有密切合作他其實是有一個線上的"},{"start":481.551,"end":506.346,"text":"線上他會有個三方通話多餘的一個諮詢服務在針對防炸的部分那另外我們在那個所謂的外國人在台人士的生活諮詢熱線這部分也都有提供相關多餘的這些服務另外在對於說這些移工一站式的服務的部分的話我們也都跟勞動部這邊有來結合針對他在入境的部分也會加強在這上面防炸的宣導還有其他的管道謝謝"},{"start":507.421,"end":530.696,"text":"好我們是希望的是抓到源頭就是外籍外籍人士在台灣被利用我們要如何就是要不是人的問題是制度跟機制的問題所以我們希望就是說剛我們在這件事情就是說我們在入國的時候我們要如何來去做一個"},{"start":536.127,"end":536.968,"text":"宣傳還有輔導這個部分因為我們都是用中文的他們聽不懂又看不懂所以我們希望是針對各種語言很多就是"},{"start":550.529,"end":555.593,"text":"回去了就把帳戶把自己的SIM卡就會變成這樣子的去販賣所以這樣子的普遍所以才會導致現在就是很多就是利用這樣子來去做一個詐騙集團我很多次了我很多次都有要求還有就是拜託"},{"start":571.145,"end":580.454,"text":"我們警政署跟移民署要如何跨部會要用一個就是防詐的一個外籍人士的團隊因為現在詐騙集團都去利用外籍人士"},{"start":587.871,"end":615.432,"text":"來去詐騙我們在台灣的人但是呢我們警政署跟移民署不懂得去應用現有這些人移民署每年都是栽培人警政署也是一個每年都栽培新住民有各種語言但是呢我們都沒有應用來去真正的去防詐所以最後我要提醒光是十月份因為很多都在說是"},{"start":617.273,"end":622.875,"text":"移工最多就是污名化但是關於10月份一個月我們本國籍社稼的人數已經超過3000人也超過移工的人數但是新聞裡面都標題都說常常下標題就是說"},{"start":637.219,"end":643.586,"text":"逃逸移工在犯罪在詐欺所以我請兩位就是兩個單位在政府的統計宣傳上有沒有避免這樣的就是族群的污名化能不能就是同步推動不標籤不要這樣子的標籤化的防詐的交易"},{"start":658.852,"end":661.775,"text":"請大家知道說這個是不是族群的問題這個是制度的問題所以我們希望保護的所有在台灣生活工作努力的人不分國籍也不分你我我們都大家都是被利用所以希望"},{"start":677.57,"end":681.671,"text":"兩位就是我們兩個署還有其他可以共同跨部會跟今天的主題一樣跨部會如何就是有一個具體的計畫防詐還有怎麼消除讓外籍人士在台灣成為詐騙的車手可以嗎在一個月內提出一個具體的可以謝謝"},{"start":706.837,"end":708.525,"text":"House 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報告委員因為這次普發的就陳如委員所提的這個管道很多那就是說不然你就回答我要不要時間有限啊不要做文章啊如果說是像登記入帳的部分這些金融機構其實都有在裡面我的意思就很多委員也有講你可以去郵局直接理做什麼"},{"start":81.601,"end":107.716,"text":"有沒有把農會考慮進去一句話就好了你跟我做那麼多文章所以現在領先的部分的話是可以到郵局農會的部分可能要就是去看說你如果沒有辦法決定你也可以跟我講帶回去研究就好啦你這邊講這麼多你浪費我那麼多時間我們下次如果有機會我們再研議看看"},{"start":109.097,"end":133.126,"text":"對嘛你這樣子其實是浪費我的時間啊你這樣子講那麼多對不對為什麼這樣很多的鄉下的人他其實都在農會啦你就直接去農會領我覺得這是一個很方便的一件事情我覺得你們要去考慮那再來我想請問一下像"},{"start":138.26,"end":149.404,"text":"如果一夜市網路的詐騙如果人家去報案了那他用信用卡付錢可不可以停止付款這財政部跟金管會你們兩個"},{"start":156.736,"end":176.933,"text":"跟委員報告如果是用信用卡不是當事人消費的他可以跟發卡銀行申請這個不是啊當然是當事人消費啊他已經拿到銀行的報案三連單了是他發現這個就是網路詐騙的已經拿到了銀行的報案三連單去到銀行可不可以要求他指付"},{"start":179.377,"end":197.152,"text":"跟委員講信用卡沒有指付只有爭議賬款的處理對啦 可不可以處理啦可以處理可以處理但是錢就是如果他已經輸入他的重要的這個ID譬如說OTP這我都知道這都知道啦他就已經完成程序了啦對好"},{"start":198.573,"end":203.998,"text":"我知道你們要講沒有辦法嘛對不對因為你們說爭議款啦這是國際信用卡的組織的認定的交易啦對不對你們是這樣講嗎那再來我們的詐欺犯罪妨害維治條例第8條可能你們也不知道我直接念給你們聽金融機構對於存款帳戶電子支付帳戶及信用卡等等的因善"},{"start":226.226,"end":248.276,"text":"應盡善良管理人之注意義務對疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之異常存款帳戶等等等等他必須暫停全部或部分交易功能管控信用卡及暫停信用卡帳戶交易功能拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等管控措施這是台灣的法令"},{"start":249.369,"end":275.239,"text":"那你們要遵守國際法律還是為了打詐要優先遵守台灣的法律請你們回答我們一定是先遵守我們自己國家的法律那我剛唸給你聽的詐欺犯罪妨礙危害防治法第八條就要求你們管控帳戶了那你剛剛給我的回答是尊重這個國際信用卡組織用爭議款去處理"},{"start":277.627,"end":296.729,"text":"來 市長 你們的警察都已經八萬確定了喔他們銀行不處理喔那個 請教一下 我們檢證署是不是說明一下實務上 這種有信用卡之後不是啊 你們就回答我啦你們有這樣子啦 啊他們不處理啊我就有實際的案例啦那你們怎麼看法"},{"start":298.018,"end":314.476,"text":"你們一天到晚在講打詐啊你們跨部會協調他們都第一個我們那個打詐辦公室裡面大概都會把這些議題拿來做一個看如何去精進那這個部分打詐辦公室也會包括我們警政署行政警察局那我想還有包括警管會那是不是請我們同事說明一下好"},{"start":317.378,"end":341.31,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那有關這個相關跨部會的協調那在行政會的打炸指揮中心那我們都會把這個跨部會我們在偵查犯罪上所發現的問題沒辦法協調的我們會透過打炸指揮中心來做定期的協調我現在舉這個很多民眾反映你們多久要處理好"},{"start":344.319,"end":361.685,"text":"我們下一次會議就把這個議題提到打炸指揮中心來做責任的報告所以你們還沒有發現過這個問題下次才要提這個問題我都接到好幾次的反應了你們都沒有你們都沒有發現過這個也都沒有跟金管會財政部討論過"},{"start":363.902,"end":390.011,"text":"官員報告齁 這個其實這一類的案件我們早就有提供相關的建議那因為剛剛金管會他們有他們的想法跟做法所以我們才必須提在這個西華創方面再金管會剛剛已經講了喔他優先遵從台灣的法令喔我再做一次喔 詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第八條喔台灣的法令規定的喔他剛剛也講了喔"},{"start":393.123,"end":399.787,"text":"就是喔優先尊重台灣的法令喔當然跟委員報告我們把這個問題在我覺得啦齁這個問題啊齁很多的民眾齁"},{"start":405.783,"end":425.559,"text":"發生了這個問題政府一天到晚在講打詐我們有台灣的法律沒有優先執行然後去說國際的信用卡組織的爭議款我覺得這個是非常可以去研議去處理的我覺得啦你們這樣講三個月內你們應該要給我們內政委員會所有委員一份你們處理的怎麼樣這是對全國不是對我啦"},{"start":434.418,"end":443.686,"text":"不然內政部打詐你們警察那邊三連單都開了都已經確定都是了人家都不理你們你們警察在幹什麼我覺得也要找回警察的尊嚴也要讓台灣的民眾知道政府有在做事台灣的法令不遵循這樣子講句難聽一點的"},{"start":459.113,"end":480.459,"text":"你們不是保護民眾欸你們是站在銀行端欸你們站在資本家那邊欸金管會跟財政部是不是這樣啊各位報告齁我們就是因為發生這個問題所以把這個問題提到跨部會上我們當然也期待這個程序問題你不用教我啦我也很清楚啦我最後問一下那個財政部跟金管會齁你們剛剛齁也有說優先遵循台灣的法令了嘛對不對"},{"start":488.698,"end":513.584,"text":"是嘛所以你們趕快處理啦這個問題如果不處理動會越來越大啦大家都知道台灣有這個漏洞啦反正就不用怕啦我就一夜市的廣告我就能騙多久就趕快繼續騙啦你們可不可以馬上處理三個月內跟內政部這些處理我們會盡快跟內政部來討論好 謝謝"},{"start":518.58,"end":521.186,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165402","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165402","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610faced185342b0d221b3e4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c068fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:50:26 - 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謝謝委員我想今天簡單說明第一個它這個宗教團體我們在第一時間已經請我們宗理師都去現場去了解那有關剛談到群組的部分那我這邊所理解的是它確實在那個群組裡面有一些行為"},{"start":103.686,"end":120.702,"text":"那我想這個行為的部分如果他只要涉及不法涉及詐欺我們這邊都會有第一個已經去訪查了那接下來我們都會做搜查那這個不光只是總理師我們包括警政署其實都已經在這個案子都已經已經有把它相關的一些具體事證都來做整理"},{"start":121.092,"end":137.549,"text":"那一旦查完之後我們就會移送給相關的檢調機關來做一個偵辦我先簡單跟委員做個說明好 謝謝次長的說明我就希望說這個案件不要再有一些教徒有受害的情勢發生好 那進入今天的重點我們先請金管會的銀行局副局長是不是在現場"},{"start":139.403,"end":143.625,"text":"好那今天要討論這個普發一萬的防詐狀況那我也想要藉此來說來了解一個案件就是前幾天的這個全支付的案件因為其實這種詐騙的樣態都差不多啦網路的詐騙他通常就是給你一些假的網址給你一些假的連結讓你點進去那很常是冒用我們政府網站的"},{"start":161.292,"end":177.943,"text":"一些連結然後騙你點進去之後就把你的個資拿走了那我想要問的是前兩天的這個全支付的狀況因為全支付大家知道說其實是全台灣用戶量第三名然後他們的交易量也是全台灣第一名的電子支付的平台"},{"start":178.783,"end":201.14,"text":"但是在這個全支付的狀況前兩天有發生一個案件就是說有民眾連續被倒刷20筆交易那總金額損失是台幣8萬元然後很多用戶都很恐慌也紛紛表示說他們有類似的情勢發生那金管會是說17號之前要他們交報告我不知道現在調查的結果如何麥克風"},{"start":205.842,"end":230.379,"text":"跟委員報告全支付在這個事件發生的時候有馬上跟我們通報重大偶發那這個報告他是17號才要過來那所以目前目前我們還沒有收到這個報告那這一個網站他是用這個釣魚信件還有這個其他的簡訊來誤導民眾去這個到其他的網站把這個資料輸進去"},{"start":232.033,"end":252.22,"text":"那所以不是全支付本身它的網站或者是它的APP有被攻擊的這個現象所造成的好 謝謝我們金管會的說明喔那我在這邊要講的是這個看起來比較像是就是一種狀況攻擊嘛那我們是不是先請速發部的王司長是不是在現場"},{"start":253.43,"end":256.051,"text":"我在這邊想要跟你了解的是像這種賬戶供給的行為樣態已經非常多我想問的是像這種資安你們有沒有一定的防護程度以及比較大的資安的問題到底要怎麼解決我在這邊跟你問兩個事情一個是就是其實有很多資安專家建議說現在這種用信用卡跟綁銀行賬戶比起來"},{"start":274.62,"end":281.564,"text":"綁信用卡是相對安全的因為可以比較有追溯的管道並且他的追討帳戶追討款項的機制比較明確那這個是不是你們會建議說大家與其綁你的銀行帳戶不如綁信用卡這是第一個問題第二個問題是OTP就是one time password"},{"start":295.491,"end":300.333,"text":"這樣的方式已經被很多資安專家說已經很不安全了可是現在台灣多數的銀行多數的網站多數的電子支付都還是用ATP的方式在用例如簡訊驗證給你一個驗證碼然後你就輸入但是像我剛剛說的狀況攻擊很常就是利用這樣的漏洞讓你中間先你有大量的帳密然後你再用想辦法去去釣魚那變成說OTP非常的不安全"},{"start":323.041,"end":346.338,"text":"那你也知道說現在網路全世界都在就是更新用passkey的方式然後用加入這個FIDO的組織所以我想要問的是速發部有沒有建議說我們可以有更多的銀行更多的電子支付的網站可以加入FIDO的這個系統讓大家使用passkey的方式來取代OTP以上兩個問題"},{"start":347.881,"end":363.592,"text":"好謝謝委員提問那針對第一個是不是信用卡或是說綁帳戶這個部分的話可能我這邊沒辦法回答沒辦法回答金融這邊的話可能比較可是這個是資安問題啊金管會那邊可能比較清楚那針對簡訊的部分的話第一個這個是數位資安問題好沒關係那是不是請金管會回答請告訴我們綁信用卡跟綁銀行的帳戶哪一個比較安全你們可以做到哪樣的防護"},{"start":378.636,"end":407.311,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在意的是業者的責任不管是綁信用卡還是綁帳戶那如果是非這個我現在就是在跟你討論技術上如何讓民眾可以自主的去預防嘛什麼叫做這個你們在乎的是業者的責任不管怎麼樣業者都有責任啊問題是說我們要如何輔導民眾然後輔導銀行讓大家用最安全的方式來防護自己的帳號不要被盜嘛"},{"start":412.714,"end":425.803,"text":"阿現在很多資安專家就已經講說技術上其實信用卡比較有他們有一些認證並且有追溯的管道並且像這些MasterCard他們在世界上都已經加入FIDO組織啦我覺得你們完全沒有做功課也沒有任何的針對這種資安防護的研究耶所以你知道什麼是FIDO嗎"},{"start":437.009,"end":465.773,"text":"我知道我知道對嘛所以那現在是不是大家都已經在講說OTP已經沒有很已經不安全了那是不是大家來可以嘗試使用passkey你們有什麼建議跟我們報告如果是那個就是用那個FIDO部分那現在其實台灣已經有solution就是說在至少在內政部這邊他自然憑證他是有FIDO的機制的那這個部分的話其實在銀行這邊如果他用這樣子的機制的話在內政部這邊應該也是"},{"start":466.645,"end":478.6,"text":"不好意思 應該是市長這邊我想跟委員報告我想我們自然人憑證就是用FIDO的我們也一直在推廣說包括銀行業者來協助是不是來盡量可以多運用一下我們自然人憑證的模式"},{"start":479.042,"end":496.802,"text":"那我想這個部分也包括金管會還有速發部我想我們都可以來共同研究那我想是不是在會後那個我們有研究好這個麻煩次長喔因為看起來我們金管會看起來速發部都沒有進一步的研究也沒有任何進一步的建議其實我蠻失望的那這個拜託我們內政部次長"},{"start":501.146,"end":516.757,"text":"好 這個我們幾個部會來共同來研究 好不好好 這個要更快啊因為現在 拜託 這個詐騙集團的詐數是與時俱進 每天日新月異的結果我們防範的手段這麼慢然後又跟不上世界的腳步那到底要怎麼防詐這個我們是不是就會合我們幾個部會我們會來共同來做研究好 這個拜託你們 我想資安很重要啦很重要啊 現在就是大家就是在打資安戰嘛"},{"start":528.052,"end":530.521,"text":"好這個拜託次長內政部一定要加油好嗎謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face751f2a39f46af6cf4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c0656ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:38:44 - 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報告委員就是我們現在包括剛才委員講到的說身份證字號健保卡號跟帳號其實它是要同一個人"},{"start":119.506,"end":134.351,"text":"我们会去检查是同一个人才会去把那个钱汇进去所以即使他这个身份证号当然是同一个人你怎么可能身份证跟你的账号不一样那你怎么可能对不对你这说明我挺怪怪的当然是同一个人他就依照你的指令这样去登记但是他会害怕因为诈骗犯难太严重所以即使说这个诈骗集团拿着别人的这个资料去填"},{"start":149.608,"end":176.972,"text":"最後這個錢一定是匯到這個人的帳號因為他三個是要同一個人才會通過所以最後錢不會匯到詐騙集團的帳號去一定是到這個人的帳號那這個是我們技術上面可以把它解決的你們現在技術這麼解決但是會再衍生第二個問題也就是我這一些資料公開之後在我還沒有收到錢的時候他會不會被轉換出去"},{"start":177.852,"end":205.456,"text":"有沒有這個危機不會不會會不會有這個危機這個就是本席非常希望因為他是一個便利的但是當民眾有疑慮的時候我們要怎麼樣去解除民眾的疑慮只有我們單位知道民眾還是這個憂心這樣是不夠的所以本席才會說我們在整個信賴度上面我們要怎麼樣去加強還有我們防詐的一個教育要怎麼樣落實讓民眾可以清楚"},{"start":206.599,"end":221.215,"text":"報告委員我們可以在我們那個10000.gov.nz這個網站上面就在登記那邊我們可以多一點訊息讓民眾可以更放心這樣子的一個方式這個也是你精進的方案之一所以本席也希望因為我們現在剛開始"},{"start":222.797,"end":243.24,"text":"很多人還是告訴我說我去郵局領 我去ATM領這樣我比較放心但是我們既然已經有速發部來開發不要讓民眾不放心你把你的經濟方案給本席讓民眾對於我們的平台是信賴的好的把那個方案給本席謝謝 接下來本席邀請金管會"},{"start":249.349,"end":275.909,"text":"金管會我們接受到蠻多的一個陳情因為金管會我們在要求銀行啟用這個AI風險系統打擊詐騙控管這是對的但是問題是有很多的零工的經紀者比如說網拍 呼編單這一種的以及中高齡的用戶那麼他們因為是小額平凡的交易或者是新轉帳的這個情況比較頻繁"},{"start":279.312,"end":297.387,"text":"但是他是一個正常的一個生活所需的必要技術也好方法也好必要用的一個他的工具所以在這種情況之下有一個帳戶在三個月內有26筆的小額匯款但是呢另外還有6筆每一筆不到3000元"},{"start":299.963,"end":327.594,"text":"不到3000元的這個匯款但是它被銀行鎖住了那鎖住了它當然它的生財工具就被凍結所以在這樣的一個情況之下因為它被誤以為是高風險的賬號所以在這樣的情況之下呢本席要請教我們銀行如果在明確的標準跟救濟的管道應該要有這些救濟的管道要迅速而且有救濟的管道"},{"start":328.374,"end":350.312,"text":"能夠讓民眾在正常生活跟正常收入的時候它不受影響因為它的一個經濟體的方式是不一樣的是小額而且頻繁的所以我們希望也就是金融在防詐的時候不要成為它是生活的阻礙而且削弱了金融的一個包容性所以因此本席要請教對於合法使用"},{"start":353.414,"end":370.266,"text":"因高風險而被排除金融體系的這個情況我們對於這樣子的一個銀行風險控管的標準以及設立快速救濟的通道我們應該是要提出具體的方案吧請做說明是 謝委員的這個垂詢"},{"start":373.427,"end":403.287,"text":"那我们对于银行去控管账户,我们都会要求他做一个事前的一个标准,严格的标准的一个审查,那事中的话也要随时去看这个客户的一个实际的状况,那事后的话也要检查他们控管的这个方式合不合理,像委员刚提到的个案,那如果是正常交易的,那他如果被锁住了,要马上跟银行联络,银行就会去判断他如果是网拍,他有大量进出的需要,"},{"start":403.707,"end":426.765,"text":"那他馬上就會給他解鎖那這個解鎖的方式可能包括電話、網路、臨櫃都可以沒有那麼清楚也沒有那麼簡便所以本席接到這樣子的陳情所以要跟這個單位來說明我們當然防詐我們一定要防詐控管這個風險但是它是正常所需要的當他發現被鎖的時候"},{"start":430.067,"end":450.307,"text":"他去陳情的時候 他去說明的時候本席認為在整個救濟的管道應該要更便捷 更快速是 就誠如我剛跟委員報告的目前大概就是我剛說的三種方式那如果是個案的話 委員是不是可以提供給我們"},{"start":450.828,"end":476,"text":"不是說個案我們現在在討論的是他的制度跟方向所以本席也具體建議您給這個銀行團告訴他們你們現在有你們的方案那你們是不是再去檢視民眾有困難的時候如果他屬實你們查證他是如本席剛才所說的忽偏大的網拍的他必須要如此的時候那麼也請具體"},{"start":477.281,"end":486.643,"text":"以快速減變的方式讓他們可以恢復他正常生活所需好不好好 我們回去再好 經濟方案也給本席 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝楊卓明委員"}]}},{"id":"165412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8ee83a3606e2e3634fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c06e6c27912765eb29c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:18:46 - 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就是要针对舆请的部分未来发现金的时候就已经先所以9月份的时候有讨论对 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至於委員剛提出來的案例外國確實有發生在台灣目前我們是還沒有接過相關的報案台灣的民眾沒有 我手上資料就很多ATM這樣"},{"start":306.221,"end":334.108,"text":"我其實也是今天這個案我才知道有這一個情況而且我們查了有啊這個整個媒體都有所以這一塊我們真的要趕快來防堵因為接下來好像是在17號開始ATM就要開始可以在ATM取款所以我們現在台灣還沒有但是那我要問了有沒有部署"},{"start":336.114,"end":346.596,"text":"其實有 我這邊手上有資料我了解 可能我們現在ATM提令如果說民眾提令發生問題他直接就會聯絡相關的銀行來做處理那要加強部署這部分沒問題來來來 我就要針對這一塊你ATM 很多民眾他以為是故障他覺得是機器故障他可能就離開"},{"start":364.039,"end":382.194,"text":"离开ATM他就走了结果涉这个装置的诈骗者他就过来他就有办法把那个钱就领走了这一个情况我们台湾17号下礼拜一马上就开始ATM了"},{"start":383.782,"end":404.813,"text":"我們不希望聽到因為全國除了銀行的ATM還有很多超商都有ATM所以這一塊本席要求我們要在那個螢幕上請銀行加強警示如果你鈔票沒有順利出來第一個提醒他不要離開第二個馬上聯絡什麼電話才來確認不然等到他覺得"},{"start":414.179,"end":437.834,"text":"這個機器有問題 那我就去反映機器結果他離開 錢就被領走了這個部分 你說因為ATM的部分 今天剛好主管的金管會有來我理解是都有做金管會要給他說明一下來來來 金管會針對這一塊ATM 你們有沒有掌握到"},{"start":439.135,"end":461.598,"text":"因為馬上我覺得很大宗會用ATM跟委員報告之前像這個錢被擋住的情形我們這邊是沒有得到銀行有通報的案例但是我們有請銀行來加強在這個他們設置的ATM的一個巡查那如果客戶在領錢的時候有任何的問題都可以就近跟行員來問"},{"start":462.979,"end":484.875,"text":"那如果是行外的就像超商的那我们也有请这个银行在这个上面一定要写联络电话那如果有任何的问题都可以所以联络电话还不够你要警示不要离开他如果离开就没有办法了离开人家就去拿了"},{"start":486.226,"end":494.075,"text":"可不可以加强这一块而且这个部分我们下个礼拜一就开始有ATM提领的整个已经开始"},{"start":494.73,"end":518.062,"text":"所以在这之前我们要请银行一定要整个做巡查跟盘查并且我要请金管会要确认你那个警示要加强那个警示的讯息你一定要叫他先不要离开他离开这个诈骗的方式就是他离开钱就他一离开人家都在锁定他离开他钱就被领走了"},{"start":520.059,"end":543.004,"text":"那我们回去我们看怎么来对你们要赶快加速因为我们中华民国政府啊我们台湾怎么都输给这个诈骗集团的动作速度还有各种花样各种方式如果国外已经有我们应该要超前部署其实现在部署已经不是超前了"},{"start":543.524,"end":569.654,"text":"所以這一塊可不可以加強一定要加強我們不希望這一波的普發現金一萬元發生這樣的情況好嗎好最後我們請這個陰陽局副局長是不是那麻煩最後本席要在這裡來詢問一下次長還有副局長請問你們有沒有聽過共享責任框架"},{"start":573.806,"end":592.282,"text":"新加坡在去年年底就12月去年12月实施一个共享责任框架这个框架是新加坡的金管局他们的金管局主导也就是说强制金融机构还有电信业者"},{"start":593.263,"end":598.067,"text":"他必須分攤防詐的責任如果銀行沒有盡到實時的詐騙監控的義務就必須對受害者進行補償"},{"start":607.462,"end":635.061,"text":"這個是新加坡在做的那我們台灣呢不管是這次的普發現金或者是日常的轉帳防詐的責任好像都在政府的宣導還有人民自己注意這兩塊那銀行好像是局外人做收手續費可是卻不用負擔實質的這個防詐的責任所以我們台灣應該要來思考所以你們從來不知道這個這種情況嗎"},{"start":638.003,"end":655.973,"text":"而且我在這邊講一下新加坡因為這樣做他們整個的防詐詐損率降低了30%降低了30%我這樣算我們一年那個詐騙金額上千億你30%就少掉300億"},{"start":657.833,"end":674.527,"text":"所以這一個部分我要在這裡要求我們金管會今天當然是銀行局副局長來是不是可以帶回去是不是可以來研擬可以嗎我們把委員的這個建議我們帶回去來做研議對 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警政署委員好謝謝今天我們討論這個開發一萬戶的打仗的這個成果因為這次開發一萬戶還給我們建設氣管路電機電動給我們的詐騙集團有機可乘"},{"start":34.261,"end":36.002,"text":"好 委員我是不是請警政署來說明"},{"start":57.65,"end":66.537,"text":"向委員報告 因為這個剖髮十萬戸 從今年的照片已經統計到現在那所有發現的案件差不多是九件那九件裡面的基礎差不多五件是這個車前進的這部分三件是這個網路 還有一個車子在台 這部分我們現時是都"},{"start":81.498,"end":89.822,"text":"因為案發的有限事件要向相關警察局先立專案現在就很煩了如果從整個詐騙的趨勢來看這件我們爆發一萬塊的相關詐欺的案件發生的比例目前可以說是可以控制的財修你怎麼這麼有邏輯 講詐騙企業的經驗"},{"start":105.154,"end":111.755,"text":"剛才在報告裡面,大概有八百多萬,這次的重點是這樣,那是剖發一萬戶,結合甲鹼鎮,做成八百多萬的財務?其實我們已經要推出剖發一萬戶,在光榮行政局,詐騙集團已經準備好了,"},{"start":130.814,"end":134.877,"text":"他們的技術兩位比我們更先進,所以當我們做到那樣,就聽到事端,他們就沒主意去等那個人長,所以有可能這樣就造成他們的損失,這個過分,我們來進口經濟事務家更辛苦了。"},{"start":150.595,"end":153.257,"text":"未來將對這個網絡經濟更加是需要我們人的個資的股份這都要加強一下這個股份再快一點感謝委員這股份我們一定會再加強因為其實在網絡民眾污點這個不對的網站輸入個資現在是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":173.735,"end":179.339,"text":"那委員剛才說點出來 我也希望說透過委員接受這個方針來傳達給我們全國的民眾 都了解可是 操作網絡要特別小心尤其你要輸入個人的個資你尤其要特別注意千萬不可以在網絡隨便來做輸入這我們地方的警察局"},{"start":198.973,"end":205.097,"text":"平常時都有在宣導我們在遭殘案時平常時在台上我們都會向記者宣導這個國分我相信說由上到下大家透過媒體也好透過網絡也好透過我們用我們的嘴出來說來宣導一定可以奉祉到這些遭殘案的案件好感謝我們的"},{"start":228.654,"end":233.277,"text":"那個內政局很正常,你先休息我請司法局謝謝委員委員好 市長好有一個知名作家他曾經在自己的臉書說他是窮我的貌照片的第一名"},{"start":253.632,"end":257.876,"text":"因為這個部分是我們另外一個署在負責但是就我所知我們現在就是民眾如果透過我們網站通報查詢網去做這樣子的一個通報"},{"start":275.796,"end":297.249,"text":"我們就會主動的來去看說這個是不是真的是一個詐騙訊息如果是的話那我們就會把這個網頁或是說是這樣子的一個FB我們就會用這個RPD的方式就是說讓民眾他輸入網址的時候會連不到那樣子的一個網頁用這樣的方式來去防止民眾去看到這樣子一個詐騙的一個網頁我們事發局是高飛"},{"start":302.236,"end":324.994,"text":"上線通過網 開垃圾經費建立跟這次申告如何不好意思這個細節的那個經費的話可能我們之後再提供給委員這邊那我們這個之前就已經有上線了在去年就已經有上線然後後來我們有把它下架然後再做經...把它再做精緻化之後有再重新上線一次這樣子好 我們這個防災APP"},{"start":329.136,"end":333.86,"text":"下載的數量只有四萬而已但是有四十幾萬的通報可以說明這個查詢網的來源大概是到了好 報告委員這個我們感覺是我意思是說這四十幾萬的通報是從哪裡通過來"},{"start":349.933,"end":372.982,"text":"我們很多的管道在做通報不只是那個民眾然後我們自己我們也會有用AI的方式去網路上面尋因為有一些是那個網頁我們就覺得它是有可能是詐騙的網頁的話那我們就會把它這些的內容我們也會把它放在這樣子的一個通訊網裡面去做一個後續的一個檢查看看是不是所以不只是民眾這邊"},{"start":374.284,"end":388.014,"text":"去對這個疑似這個詐騙的網頁做通報我們自己也有自動的機制 那自動的機制那個部分的話其實也這個尋到蠻多類似的這樣子的一個網頁其實通報這地方政府跟警察單位幫你們做三天的這個也很重要我們大家緊張手機通報的機率都有比較多對我們這個戶籍的這個阻礙"},{"start":404.963,"end":409.305,"text":"我們想說有什麼方案可以增加民眾的使用量當然第一個我們會有一些在各式的場合如果可以方便的話我們都會跟民眾做這樣的宣導那也跟這個"},{"start":421.65,"end":447.698,"text":"一些相關的機關去宣導讓他們去跟這個民眾如果說他們有接觸到這些民眾的話可以跟他們做這樣的宣導那這第一個那當然剛才委員也有提到說這樣子通報可能他的數量也是不多嘛所以我們除了這樣子宣導讓民眾來通報之外我們剛才也有講到說一些自動化的機制我們也會持續的去盡盡量自動化去找這些類似這個詐騙的網頁的這樣子的一個機制把它做得更好"},{"start":448.134,"end":452.635,"text":"好,感謝市長我這其實問題有很多剛才市長在說有的,不是你的要來看一看有的,對所以今天我們這個市法局雖然是市長以上的層級來整個簡單的問題就是要給大家提醒警察當年在現場努力的狂炸每一次捏紙都要為警察跟航班第一時間來作動"},{"start":478.53,"end":492.662,"text":"大家趕快期待樹花谷可以做到三年前升立的時候那個國家優秀能力的發揮這個功能的樹花谷當這個數位建設到防範有更好既然這個通關網站機制已經建立起來希望可以發揮到"},{"start":507.267,"end":507.587,"text":"謝謝丁薛忠委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"165407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face97eaf55e89765a494fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c06ce221ba616d86ab85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:40:18 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大家早安大家辛苦了這個普發一萬元我剛剛看書面報告被詐騙的災情還算可控嗎數量沒有很多嗎"},{"start":27.22,"end":47.558,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛的報告裡面其實目前都還可控還可控這個請繼續加油那因為大家都現在大家都很擔心啦因為這個這個題目在台灣上空也吵了蠻久的那當然就很多詐騙集團刺激而動那麼相對來講政府也做了很多措施特別花了很多時間去宣傳就是官方網站只有一個對不對這是一個"},{"start":48.246,"end":75.385,"text":"相對單純而且有效的這樣一個方式內政部在11月11號在臉書上說普發現金的官網只有一個速發部今天的書面報告也講普發現金的官網只有一個那大家去看說這個所謂的官方網站其實基本上就是gov.tw嘛對不對這是基本上的一個簡單的認證模式嘛好那普發現金跟普發現金有關的官網真的只有10000.gov.tw這一個嗎"},{"start":80.549,"end":90.966,"text":"只有這個嗎這個我先簡單講跟委員報告網站越單純越好所以說我們希望讓所有的民眾就知道是只有這個單一網站對啊是這樣子所以到底是不是只有一個官方網站"},{"start":95.275,"end":114.444,"text":"包委員就我們所知就是一個官方網站就你們所知是一個如果說那個什麼從網站裡面它有一個地方可以連結出去的話那個是另外一個網址但是的確都是從我們這個網站出去的現在除了那個一萬.gov.tw之外還有一個叫做pro.一萬.gov.tw請問這是不是官方網站"},{"start":115.698,"end":136.199,"text":"這也是官方網站對不對因為gov.tw嘛對不對那你們又宣稱說只有一個官方網站然後又有另外一個官方網站到底哪一個才是官方網站報告委員這個是從我們一萬的那個網站可以連結出去的另外一個網址但是以民眾來講他只要記得一萬.gov.tw這個就可以了這個是財政部做的嘛來財政部"},{"start":137.84,"end":159.836,"text":"是 報告委員這一個是為了廣宣就是說在10000.gov.tw登記平台的網站上路之前我要先告訴大家有10000.gov.tw這件事欸你們差不多得了是不要每個部會都想要搞一個網站好不好既然是單一網站你就全部整合啦你們接下來有沒有要整合的打算"},{"start":161.26,"end":181.961,"text":"因為我善意提醒啦 因為你多一個你這後面等於都有gu.tw嘛我們在防詐的過程中 我們最擔心的就是弄的網站跟你很像啊 對不對然後各式各樣 然後導引就把你導到別的地方去嘛那你政府的開放的那個樣態越多它是不是可以模仿 可以盜用就等於破口就越多啦"},{"start":182.481,"end":201.532,"text":"那既然你們也都宣稱只有一個官方網站就應該要有所整併啦你即便要宣傳你也集中在你就一開始就集中在1萬.gov.tpl你就宣傳宣傳完時間到了就開放不是也比較集中點閱率也比較高效果也比較好嗎這個性歧視恐怕不是一件好事你們想一下要不要趕快來做一下整理這第一個"},{"start":202.182,"end":224.241,"text":"那藉著這樣子的一個問題啦因為後來我看了一下像以速發部來講啊就是說你們都會針對後醉是.tw網站做定期的查核跟這個檢證的機制嘛如果發現他是詐騙集團你就會那個我跟你講跟E1有關的網站這個雖然不是官方這個也算是官方網站我發現還有一個E1-gov.tw"},{"start":227.222,"end":251.779,"text":"然後這個東西跟普發現金其實沒有關係因為它是叫萬事通它是一個可以連結到政府各個網站的一個導流嗎或者是入口的網站當然它這個網站目前為止沒有被錯殺啦但是我要提醒就是說這很複雜啦然後其實跟人民相關他們比較關心也比較關鍵關切的點是到底哪一個網站才是真正的官方嘛真正的認可嘛"},{"start":252.68,"end":278.173,"text":"還有第二個是除了我們透過這個後綴網址gov.tw之外啊這個怎麼能夠確認嘛欸這個我給政府做一個政策建議啦第一個除了我建議你把所有的普發現金的東西就是單一窗口做一個統整避免詐騙集團有破口之外第二個就是我們所有的官方網站除了是用網址的方式來辨認之外有沒有一些別的機制可以讓他有效有認證機制的概念比如說臉書啊我們的這個臉書粉專有藍勾勾嘛"},{"start":281.235,"end":300.122,"text":"那你就認證藍勾勾嘛然後Lite裡面有盾牌綠色的盾牌對不對那相對來講網站上面有沒有一些這樣的東西來速發布這需要你們有點創意啊有沒有什麼想法報告委員第一個就是我們對外宣導就是做10000.9MTW所以剛才那個Pro其實當然剛才委員有建議說把整合那個我們會整合但是"},{"start":300.722,"end":315.251,"text":"現在其實民眾也是從那邊從我們的一萬這邊點出去才會到那個地方那至於說像這樣子有點像是這個我們普派一萬的這個網站我們每天我們自己都有自動機制在檢核這一類的就是類似這個"},{"start":316.653,"end":333.231,"text":"普發網站這樣子的一個網址那如果說我們發現說它裡面內容是有疑似這個詐騙我們就會給那個國務組這邊會去我知道你就直接把它蓋掉這個我都有看到我現在的問題是現在各式各樣的政府官方網站裡面有沒有就有沒有什麼其他的認證機制除了看網址之外"},{"start":334.86,"end":356.191,"text":"有沒有要設計一下比如說防衛的圖騰或者是什麼樣的東西有沒有一些像這樣想法跟討論目前最簡單的它就是.govintw這樣子的一個網址的方式那另外一個就是如果說是傳輸的一個安全性的話我們都是要求每個機關的網站都是https這樣子至少在傳輸當中它的資料是加密的不會被人家接去走"},{"start":356.875,"end":378.557,"text":"我是建議你們做一下思考啦就是政府網站的認真機制啦這樣可以讓未來 因為這也不是只有這一件事嘛你未來有很多政令要做相關的一些宣導跟一些未來詐騙集團也會道高一尺 謀高一丈我是怕這些東西 現有的東西他就已經很容易仿冒 很容易突破他是容易騙人 因為網址這種東西是有些人也不見得看得清楚"},{"start":379.188,"end":388.498,"text":"我覺得是破口所以要用一些多重的方式來做防堵啦今天藉這個機會來給一下提醒然後最後是執行端的部分最近我們這個民間上越來越多人是這個"},{"start":390.516,"end":410.046,"text":"為了要阻詐結果很多人是領錢啊轉帳啊他其實遇到了很多很多的狀況這我希望這個警政署內政部這邊金管會做一下優化不要到銀樓買黃金被三管五卡結果那個詐騙集團幾十億的人幾十萬就十幾萬就交保這就不對了嘛這輕重緩急比例要注意好拿捏可以嗎好大家一起打仗一起加油啦謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face1c3cdf934b91ea3f4fb19a1d580694890f406a00a8f97c06e6c27912765eb29c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:34:13 - 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召委我們請移民署副署長請副署長委員好副署長喔有關這次那個詐騙集團太子集團啊我們看一下那個報紙的這個所載啊說兩位中級高層來台報找林思明、李德維官說啊"},{"start":26.892,"end":51.386,"text":"那移民署你們的回應是什麼跟委員報告就正我們所了解其實這個這部分的話有關這部分相關的案件並沒有委員這方面的一個關切沒有嗎對你大聲說出來有沒有沒有沒有嗎其實這個你我看你們的回應報紙就看那個紅框那個那一段"},{"start":53.882,"end":71.415,"text":"移民署回應說其中一位劉學峰是在2015年以團體旅遊試遊來台另一位李承承則在2017和2018以旅居海外路人來台觀光試遊來台請問副組長這兩位分別是在2015、2017、2018的觀光試遊來台"},{"start":77.173,"end":101.899,"text":"當時本席啊還不是立委這你知道吧我不是立委啊所以媒體說一花接木啊一鍋到三鍋說我是三屆的資深立委硬要把它湊在一起把這件事湊在一起所以啊這個本席當時任職的是新竹縣議會我想問移民署議員有權責可以跟你們去做任何的一個關說嗎"},{"start":104.642,"end":116.448,"text":"有可能嗎 我講可能就好了你不要講有沒有 有可能嗎議員可以去利用職權去關說移民署嗎跟委員報告這個案件確實是沒有就沒有嘛"},{"start":117.719,"end":140.907,"text":"所以我想李德維我也要幫他這個講一下李德維委員當時也是不是不分區委員他跟我一樣都是2020以後才擔任立委所以我們有什麼權責可以去影響到移民署就相關境外人士入台的相關的一個審查所以這件事情真的是非常的烏龍那我想這個其實署長 副長"},{"start":146.38,"end":167.721,"text":"對於這個相關這些入台人士他到底他符不符合相關的一個規定可以到我們這個進入入台啊你們審查的程序大概是怎麼樣你可以說一下嗎我們這部分的話針對這些如果是有具有中國大陸背景的部分的話我們會有一個聯審的機制會依照相關的規定來嚴格的審查"},{"start":170.293,"end":191.315,"text":"所以你們一定會依照相關的規定依法嚴格審查而且是聯席審查不是只有你們還有陸委會好多單位聯席的一個審查所以即便我們講即便我是立委我有可能干涉嗎可以干涉到你們嗎可以去什麼關說或者用任何的方式來影響你們嗎"},{"start":192.725,"end":211.223,"text":"報告不管是民眾或者是民意代表都行政機關都會接受詢問詢問可能是一些行政流程或什麼等等但是有關這個審查的部分行政機關這跨機關的審查一定是依法辦理是好謝謝最後我要再跟副長確認本席從我是20202月1號上任立委"},{"start":218.603,"end":242.754,"text":"從20202月1號我擔任立委到現在的所謂的他們紫色 隱色說什麼我去關說到現在為止 到今天為止本席辦公室有針對任何一位太子集團的成員他入境台灣的申請案發過任何的函文或者召開任何的一場協調會嗎報告沒有本席辦公室有嗎報告沒有沒有嗎是OK"},{"start":245.538,"end":269.073,"text":"所以本席我想我在這裡一定要大聲的嚴正的我要再做聲明過去我擔任縣議員或是現任立法委員從來沒有對太子集團的相關人士進行關說對於任何的詐騙行為我們更是深惡痛絕將來我會繼續秉持我立委的職責打擊詐騙保護我們民眾生命財產的安全"},{"start":269.753,"end":282.761,"text":"我想我是新竹縣民新竹縣民的清白不容被污蔑被欺壓白白不敢逆向歐有這種媒體所以我想"},{"start":288.632,"end":299.757,"text":"移民署希望你們的回應你們跟這個媒體的回應我不知道是什麼但是我還是希望移民署沒有的事你們要大聲跟媒體講你不能這樣烏龍爆料這樣去損害一個人的名譽你要告訴他真的我覺得這事情太離譜了但我也謝謝你剛才還我的一個清白明確的告訴社會大眾絕對沒有這件事以上 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請做說明分位數的話我們是按計公佈啦是沒有每月但是我們有按計公佈來做一個比較就是整個一個是所以這個部分呢也是說我們在比較的時候不是只有單一就是平均數還會看中位數然後三個月一次三個一計一次的一個分位數這樣來看"},{"start":208.413,"end":227.614,"text":"所以主要目標也就是政府公布數字是要結果論讓民眾在政府的資源可以受到照顧而且據實能夠受到照顧而不是顯性的黑數所以在這樣情況之下我們看到民間的學者跟公民團體來預估"},{"start":229.136,"end":239.326,"text":"年收入低於可支配所得中位數六成是貧窮縣那實際上生活在貧窮縣以下的人口約佔總人口的12到13%他大概是280萬到300萬人"},{"start":245.091,"end":269.025,"text":"但是我們看到現在政府所分配資源的部分低收入戶的25.9萬人中低收入戶的24.2萬人換句話說大概50萬人他是獲得的補助所以還有超過250萬的人他是貧窮黑數但是政府是沒有看到的他是沒有得到資源的一個協助"},{"start":269.545,"end":293.698,"text":"所以本期要跟你討論的就是說針對這樣的一個現象針對這樣的現象我們是不是有你源頭國發會今天有在這邊嗎 國發會來 高副座 謝謝所以主計長在這邊他的數字出來 高副座我們還有250萬人是得不到政府的一個協助我們該當怎麼辦 你要經濟方案要怎麼做來 請"},{"start":295.599,"end":314.344,"text":"我想我們最近幾年 連續十年調高那個最低薪資基本工資就是一個做法 就是針對這些在貧窮線以下的你答非所問啊 本期是告訴你 有組計長出來的250萬人他得不到政府的資源 他政府也沒有看到這個我們國防會這一塊要怎麼去做啊"},{"start":317.95,"end":332.619,"text":"好 我想這可能要跨部會包括那個衛福啊等等的就是我們可能在統計上好 你來一個跨部會 本席暫許請你將實際的數字我們已經量化出來給你要怎麼樣去照顧這250萬人的貧窮黑線"},{"start":337.562,"end":339.023,"text":"謝謝楊委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":369.876,"end":370.459,"text":"好 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