{"total":{"value":45,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-11-17"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"17038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17038","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ac4602610d545ba2d438b86726106632914d0d15f34b2c029ffdbef0ad2b26365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-17T08:39:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:55:00+08:00","duration":18907,"影片長度":"05:15:07","委員發言時間":"08:39:53 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黃司長"},{"start":1442.392,"end":1467.623,"text":"勞動法務司司長傅惠芝副司長會計處處長林美信處長財政部國庫署主任秘書羅信榮羅祖密行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員王厚吉衛生福利部社會保險司代理司長陳真惠"},{"start":1469.738,"end":1494.589,"text":"農業部農民輔導司檢任繼政王東良王繼政法務部參事汪南君汪參事內政部移民署移民事務組專門委員李明芳李專委國家發展委員會人力發展處檢任秘書張雅玲"},{"start":1496.923,"end":1522.885,"text":"教育部青年發展署組長張靜穎現在請提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘請陳穎委員說明陳穎委員等一下嗎好那我們先請林國誠委員說明"},{"start":1535.227,"end":1546.098,"text":"謝謝我們今天召委特別排有關勞工權利的這個修法所以再次謝謝也謝謝所有的官員大家都知道台灣勞工保險"},{"start":1548.921,"end":1553.784,"text":"確定是現在是1053084人所以這是9月份的所以上千2300多萬人口1000多萬"},{"start":1565.109,"end":1588.297,"text":"就是勞工保險所以有關這個我看到這些修法確確實實本席等32位我也要謝謝我們的部長過去的立法委員他也參與連署這次本席提案的66條跟69條66條主要是要把它法制化要撥補"},{"start":1590.778,"end":1604.33,"text":"69條是不要口口聲聲就告訴勞工我政府會負責我們也只要求微薄的希望希望最終給付的華之化那大家知道"},{"start":1605.698,"end":1629.323,"text":"勞保當然是有黑洞可是這個黑洞我們要了解為什麼黑洞從台灣省政府動省之後把移交中央的時候那個時候根本沒有精算也沒有移交 只移交業務沒有移交財務所以這個部分黑洞的形成"},{"start":1630.223,"end":1653.502,"text":"全部在這個部分所以現在口口聲聲告訴人家勞保要倒 勞保要倒你知道這一千多萬的勞工他心裡面什麼感覺嗎所以還要來繳多 零少 延後退這對勞工是不公平的所以財務的黑洞是從這裡來那我也希望我們勞工"},{"start":1655.123,"end":1681.591,"text":"得到一個微薄的保障很簡單就是把它法制化所以本席等32位提出這些法制化很簡單就是66條撥補法制化我相信15年到20年勞保的問題就會解決所以我同意前部長所講撥補就是救勞保的一種那我們也謝謝這幾年確實"},{"start":1684.752,"end":1708.693,"text":"勞動部是有在勞工基金這裡撥補這個我們謝謝但是不要追究責任勞工要的是一個法治化所以希望66條法治撥補化69條就是政府最終給付化所以這是本席等32位提案的這些宗旨謝謝大家 感謝大家"},{"start":1710.983,"end":1715.508,"text":"謝謝林國成委員說明接下來請王玉民委員說明"},{"start":1722.974,"end":1748.937,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天未還委員會很重要的是我們要審查勞保條例第66條跟69條到目前9月為止我們全國的勞工已經來到1053萬0846人但是我們從2017年開始事實上我們的整個保費的收入跟支出就已經達到不平衡"},{"start":1749.707,"end":1766.786,"text":"一直到現在持續九年的時間所以千萬的勞工都一直在擔心有一種恐懼就是勞保會不會破產如果勞保破產他辛辛苦苦一輩子他想要領到的退休金可能就付諸流水"},{"start":1767.327,"end":1790.894,"text":"所以為了要讓千萬的勞工可以安心那現在的民進黨政府喊出撥補即是改革但是他不應該只是一個口號而是應該要把撥補的責任最終支付的責任入法入法之後才可以讓千萬的勞工安心有政府在勞保不會倒這句話才不會是空話"},{"start":1792.955,"end":1807.702,"text":"所以今天本席也提出來這樣子的一個改革的修正案希望今天在委員會的討論可以順利的通過另外我也要特別提我們現在整個勞保基金收支的短處情況"},{"start":1808.883,"end":1820.069,"text":"其實持續惡化中我們看到2024年收支短處已經來到665億到2026年也就是明年的時候來到1015億那到2031年的時候我們整個勞保基金會呈現負的846億"},{"start":1828.553,"end":1853.61,"text":"也就是說在持續的往下走之後即使我們現在有把撥補入法但是基金他的這個將來的負債的情況並沒有百分之百的解決而這件事我認為誰執政誰就有責任如果要更有責任負起責任的話短期我們這樣的一個撥補的辦法是可以解決燃眉之急但是長期負責任的執政黨應該還是要提出永續的"},{"start":1858.793,"end":1867.801,"text":"老保年金的改革方案才是正辦 以上謝謝謝謝王育民委員說明接下來請蘇清泉委員說明"},{"start":1881.775,"end":1906.905,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我今天提的有兩個案第一個是勞工保險條例第63條那主要的重點是未婚勞工單身懲罰條款如果這個勞工身後沒有任何符合規定的遺囑然後沒有領完整的給付"},{"start":1908.024,"end":1928.673,"text":"文件paper walker沒有做好的話形同放棄甚至會被外界逼成為充公而且這個事情還不少所以同樣是社會保險的公教人員保險法沒有這個限制所以今天這個63條主要的重點是刪除"},{"start":1929.933,"end":1946.441,"text":"受其撫養的限制我們這個是一定要把這個拿掉那第二個就是增訂遺族的指定權就是他可以在遺族上面來設立這個是今天的重點因為很多人提所以不再贅述"},{"start":1947.501,"end":1967.532,"text":"另外一個是就業服務法第24條我們把它納入就是15歲到29歲的青年我們要確保他的權益甚至老保要給他加入因為青少年的失業率是蠻高的15到24歲青年的失業率占整體是比整體失業率的2.51倍"},{"start":1969.193,"end":1985.875,"text":"所以這個數字最近又攀升到3倍多所以這個就業福法第24條是我們修訂的重點以上謝謝蘇清泉委員說明接下來請林倩琦委員說明"},{"start":1996.373,"end":2016.975,"text":"謝謝主席感謝主席還有這個府院同仁今天我們在這邊有機會來討論也希望能夠大家的條文都有機會有一個很好的這個結果所以今天本席針對勞工保險條例第59條第二項做出了一個修正的草案那在這邊的說明以下"},{"start":2018.016,"end":2043.573,"text":"我國在許多的縣市目前已經邁入了超高齡社會全國65歲以上的人口比例已經接近20%但是現行的制度仍規定勞工年滿60歲後繼續工作保險的年資僅能在計算5年也就是說65歲以後工作年資完全不列入勞保老年給付的一個計算"},{"start":2045.325,"end":2061.722,"text":"那這個設計呢不符合現在的一個勞動現狀許多健康且有意願的長者仍然希望能夠繼續貢獻在職場那麼也透過這樣子來支撐家庭的經濟但現行的制度使他們多勞而沒有多保"},{"start":2062.282,"end":2080.635,"text":"不但無法增加退休的保障反而削弱他再就業的這個誘因那本次修法的建議60歲以上繼續工作的勞工每年可以累計一個月的老年給付不要受上限五年的一個限制這樣子調整可以有三個目的"},{"start":2081.195,"end":2096.417,"text":"第一個是鼓勵高齡者持續參與勞動緩解勞動力的短缺第二個部分是讓65歲以上還在工作的職業勞工享有合理的保障第三是維持制度的財政穩健"},{"start":2097.719,"end":2123.416,"text":"因為現在一次領取勞保給付者是8%且比例逐年下降那麼對財政的影響極為有限那麼立法院在去年我們已經三讀通過勞動基準法第54條開放勞僱雙方來協商延後退休那本次修法正是與該政策來接軌讓勞保制度與高齡就業的政策同步來更新"},{"start":2123.976,"end":2139.8,"text":"那這項修法是為了恢復公平而不是鼓勵延退喔而是保障繼續付出而且有能力付出的人那也在這邊懇請大家來支持本案讓長者多一份保障讓社會多一份力量以上 謝謝謝謝林千祺委員說明接下來請徐欣盈委員說明"},{"start":2157.268,"end":2184.791,"text":"主席各位委員同仁各位官員大家好今天本席要針對勞工保險條例第66條以及第69條的修正草案進行提案說明大家知道勞保是我國最重要的社會安全網關係到超過千萬勞工的退休生計根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保破產危機延後到"},{"start":2187.399,"end":2210.18,"text":"2031年但是潛藏負債卻暴增到13.23兆元這代表著我們的政府只是在延後危機而不是解決問題更重要的是政府賴以延後危機的這個撥補在現行的法律中呢竟然無法源的依據讓千萬的勞工非常非常的焦慮"},{"start":2211.021,"end":2228.572,"text":"因此我们第一个重点就是修正第66条将政府的拨补纳入基金来源正式做到拨补法治化这是政府应尽的责任必须有法律依据稳定裁员第二个重点我们要特别说明"},{"start":2229.552,"end":2250.514,"text":"國民年金法和公務人員退休資遣撫恤法都有明定政府要負最後支付以及保證的責任這是國家的承諾然而保障人數最多的勞工保險條例卻獨獨少了這一條這對千萬的勞工極不公平"},{"start":2251.533,"end":2266.79,"text":"因此我们也主张修正第69条明确增订劳工保险之财务由中央政府负最后支付责任我们要给予全国劳工同等的法律保障国家不能倒劳保当然也不能倒"},{"start":2268.51,"end":2294.06,"text":"本次修法旨在先做兩件最基本最緊急的事第一個讓政府撥補合法化第二個讓政府承諾法治化這是未來改革為了未來改革鋪路更是安定千萬勞工家庭的定心丸我懇請各位同仁共同支持謝謝謝謝徐欣盈委員說明接下來請陳昭資委員說明"},{"start":2299.315,"end":2304.956,"text":"代表民眾黨團請圖權級委員說明好謝謝主席"},{"start":2327.206,"end":2355.973,"text":"首先感谢我们廖伟祥召委今天排审我们就业服务法等草案本席在此做提案说明鉴于民国112年年底我国新住民的总数也已超越原住民多达592561人当年可说是新住民元年而更早于民国97年劳动部制定促进新住民就业补助要点"},{"start":2356.792,"end":2372.707,"text":"可見勞動主管機關認定我國新住民卻為因協助之特定對象及就業弱勢族群但根據內政部在107年新住民生活需求調查僅2.5%之新住民"},{"start":2376.09,"end":2397.722,"text":"透过公立就业服务机构进行求职同时却高达17.7%的新住民朋友曾遭遇求职困难显见我们工部门对于新住民就业促进及就业服务难为积极主动尚有大幅改进的空间"},{"start":2398.702,"end":2415.947,"text":"雖然去年113年朝野的共同努力之下新住民基本法也已三讀通過但是唯獨推動有關新住民就學 就業 培力關懷協助及多元服務等事宜"},{"start":2417.534,"end":2443.465,"text":"這個新住民發展署遲遲未能正式成立因此在現階段新住民的促進就業政策及措施仍有賴勞動部積極推展原此本席與游浩委員 麥玉珍委員鄭振前委員等17人提出《就業服務法》第24條條文修正草案"},{"start":2444.065,"end":2471.065,"text":"增定新住民於就業法母法之中為特定促進就業對象要求主管機關針對新住民之自願就業人員應訂定計畫並致力促進其就業協助排除就業障礙提升新住民勞動參與力以彰顯國家對新住民之重視以上 謝謝"},{"start":2474.862,"end":2479.17,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員說明接下來請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明"},{"start":2484.861,"end":2507.863,"text":"主席各位同事根據近年來的統計新住民的勞參率逐年提升他們在服務業在製造業餐飲業等基層或是關鍵職位上做出了很多的付出已經成為台灣的主要的勞動力來源之一但我們的法律卻沒有給他們足夠的保障無法確保新住民的就業權益"},{"start":2508.604,"end":2525.424,"text":"那一直以來本黨的麥一尊委員不斷地為新住民的權益奔走要求政府能夠正視新住民的需求在台灣新住民家庭超過百萬他們不是少數那卻因為制度的缺口缺漏而被排除在許多權益之外"},{"start":2526.105,"end":2554.391,"text":"所以终于在麦玉珍委的努力下在2024年7月通过了台湾第一步的新住民基本法确立了新住民的基本权益那现在我们不断的呼吁内政部要尽快履行法律义务加速新住民发展署的成立那台湾民众也会继续为新住民的权益来发声不让他们权益在制度中消失那我们本党的版本当中将新住民明确增列为就业扶法第24条中主管机关必须定定"},{"start":2555.071,"end":2579.684,"text":"就業促進計畫的對象之一目的是希望未來主管機關能夠定期檢討促進就業計畫的成效跟結果並且提供相關的協助跟支持這不是特殊待遇因為這是讓制度更完善而更反映出台灣真實的社會需求新住民是台灣社會的一個分子保障他們的就業權益就是保障台灣整個未來的競爭力謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":2582.947,"end":2585.028,"text":"謝謝陳昭資委員說明接下來請洪部長就討論事項進行說明時間十分鐘主席各位委員包括各位記者朋友那"},{"start":2611.533,"end":2618.989,"text":"我想我們就先就這個勞保條例的修正那先向各位說報告"},{"start":2620.253,"end":2647.216,"text":"那感謝各位委員會邀請本人針對委員所提之勞保條例相關修正草案總計30案進行報告那以下就各位委員所提的修正草案來說明本部的意見那敬請各位委員給予指教那首先針對多數委員關心第66條及69條條文部分那確保勞工退休保障是勞動部的重大勞動政策而且責無旁貸"},{"start":2648.317,"end":2675.687,"text":"也因此本部也将会持续争取编列预算拨补劳工保险基金那在政策立场上就是由政府来负最终支付责任那针对各委员所提出第66条及69条的修正草案那本部对于大院之相关的审查将会在政府最终将会在政府负最最后支付责任的政策立场上秉持开放的态度共同讨论"},{"start":2676.267,"end":2702.391,"text":"那希望有助于大院之审议那针对委员所提第6条第19条第30条第31条第58条第59条第63条那有关保险给付请求权的时效延长删除生育给付加加保日数的限制那增订原住民身障者的提前请领老年给付删除孙子女及兄弟姐妹请领遗属津贴或年金"},{"start":2704,"end":2728.595,"text":"包括需受被保险人抚养的条件领取老年给付后得变更给付方式等提案因涉及到制度的稳定和公平性那加重劳保财务负担等问题那考量各界对劳保财务的问题非常关注任何增加劳保财务的提案我们都认为需要再更审慎那相关的意见请委员见我们的书面报告"},{"start":2729.485,"end":2738.503,"text":"那最后有关第29条67条增订贷款者的开立专户及贷款不得作为强制执行标的的部分"},{"start":2739.625,"end":2766.875,"text":"劳保纾困贷款是为纾解劳工短期性的经济困难委员所提29条办理贷款得开立专户不得作为抵消扣押等标的可落实贷款目的本部竞表支持另外第69条所提贷款不得作为强制执行标的与上开目的相同但因贷款者没有设立专户个人账户中的存款来源多元可能"},{"start":2768.075,"end":2794.297,"text":"是自身的存款薪资等当贷款的款项入账后将无法分辨该笔款项为贷款本金故仍可能遭到强制执行因此建议于29条增列贷款者得办理贷款专户供存入贷款本金使用以立明确保障做法及完备法治体力以上报告是针对这个劳保条例相关的修正草案"},{"start":2794.977,"end":2819.06,"text":"那再来也跟大家再报告针对救福法第24条26-2728条修正草案那现行第24条规定独立负担加记者中高龄者等9款人员及第10款其他经中央主管机关认为有必要者为政府因智力处促进就业之对象"},{"start":2820.287,"end":2846.889,"text":"那现行本部已经公告15岁以上未满18岁未就学未就业少年还有职业灾害失能劳工以及直辖县市政府列册辅导之皆有为前接第10款的人员近期因新住民基本法的意旨也已核定一定范围之新住民以及现或曾与在台湾设计设有户籍之国民结婚经需"},{"start":2847.849,"end":2870.163,"text":"金许可居留及规划涉及至外国人大陆港澳地区人民为第十款锁定人员将配合行政院发布新住民基本法实施日期同步公告实施对本次会议委员提案首先有关15至29岁青年青年或18岁至35岁青年纳入24条特定对象一节"},{"start":2871.064,"end":2891.464,"text":"那青年是国家重要的劳动力雇主亦有雇佣的意愿他们的事业并非没有工作机会而主要是在于经验不足或职业方向不清面试技巧不够至初次求职遭遇困难或找不到合适的工作为协助青年就业本部已经整合部会的资源"},{"start":2892.352,"end":2919.41,"text":"因應各年齡階段的需求於在學臨校期間提供職壓輔導職業訓練等就業資源引導青年投入重點產業包含推動大專青年育聘計畫鼓勵重點產業提供技術職缺育聘青年進行工作崗位訓練也推動初次尋職青年穩定就業津貼計畫協助初次尋職及非典型就業青年積極尋職及穩定就業"},{"start":2921.952,"end":2944.585,"text":"那若將整體的青年納入特定對象恐會與其他特定對象包括中高齡身心障礙者等等成為就業機會的排擠我們建議可以審慎再做一些評估其次有關提案增列新住民為24條特定對象一節考量與國人結婚而移居我國的新住民為國人共同才共居之親屬"},{"start":2946.121,"end":2962.351,"text":"他們的就業需要克服語言文化差異及職場適應的問題不應是否取得國籍而有別那本部現行促進新住民就業補助作業要點已經明訂新住民比照特定對象適用相關的補助措施"},{"start":2962.984,"end":2979.793,"text":"并核定与国人结婚移居来台之新住民涵涉及前或后都是第十款的对象将配合行政院发布新住民基本法实施日期公同步公告实施所以本部建议文字修正为一定范围之新住民"},{"start":2980.629,"end":2999.034,"text":"那王宇明等委員提案第27條增列新住民適應工作環境及適應訓練第28條推介新住民就業協助其工作適應之提案本部竟表尊重那最後對於委員提案將金門馬祖澎湖地區納入特定對象一節"},{"start":3000.074,"end":3026.807,"text":"考量24條是以身份類別或就業弱勢屬性來認定113年調查金門連江澎湖人口失業率均非屬高失業狀態現行轄內已經有公立就業服務機構提供服務個別就業弱勢如有符合第24條第1項所列的各款身份也可以運用各項就業促進措施基於自願橫評的考量我們也建議應該要審慎評估"},{"start":3028.448,"end":3055.034,"text":"至於提案將金門馬祖澎湖地區納入第27條適用工作適應訓練之對象考量本條是強化身心障礙或原住民的職場適應但金門馬祖澎湖地區的居民是否有此需要也需要再做審慎的評估那本部會持續強化就業服務以及職業訓練相關的措施來協助國人順利就業以上報告進行指教謝謝"},{"start":3061.982,"end":3078.737,"text":"謝謝洪部長說明接下來有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘"},{"start":3080.918,"end":3109.304,"text":"10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員發言主席麻煩我們有請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":3116.946,"end":3143.133,"text":"林委員好 部長早我這次修就業服務法的第24條就是要把未成年人正式拉出來明明白白的列為就業促進對象的其中一款這題我們從上個會議就談到現在我過去還在民間的時候就講過雖然第10款其他對象本來就是要徵補立法所尚未窮盡到"},{"start":3144.693,"end":3174.005,"text":"到的一個新的需求對族群可是未成年人的就業需求不能夠用局限在定義在被塞在其他對象裡面過去你們用韓式公告把15歲到18歲未升學未就業的少年塞到其他對象可是這個不夠為什麼先沒有辦法涵蓋到自立生活逆境少年司法少年甚至弱勢家庭那中低收入戶的家庭裡面他們必須要靠"},{"start":3174.565,"end":3198.276,"text":"打工來度日然後又想要脫困的孩子所以我講過很多次這群孩子事實上是兒童權利公約點名要國家優先保護的對象不是你的備助人所以請問部長現行的衛生學為就業的定義根本就完全無法涵蓋真正有就業需求的弱勢境遇的少年你認不認同"},{"start":3200.662,"end":3217.416,"text":"委員其實一直很關心這些其實特殊的處遇也是高風險的少年那我想確實因為在我們舊法第24條主要在第一項在處理的主要是針對"},{"start":3218.757,"end":3237.839,"text":"就業的弱勢所以我們可以來評估一下那現在委員在提的這些比較高風險的包括司法少年 副寫少年 脆弱家庭等等他們在就業上面的狀況那當然如果這個符合大家認知的這個就業弱勢的狀況當然我覺得我們可以來評估"},{"start":3239.233,"end":3265.107,"text":"部長因為在法規上我們當然沒有辦法窮盡把它寫到這麼完整說智利少年怕掛一肉萬的狀態所以還是一直到位依照兒權公約的精神直接甄列未成年最清楚最合適那未成年各種更複雜的就業需求跟勞動權益都能夠被看見這是我的版本裡面特別去提的為什麼要這樣提呢"},{"start":3265.667,"end":3282.747,"text":"部長在就業扶法我新增了26條之一要到要對15到24歲的青少年依聯合國的標準給予特別的支持你看近三年的因加保未加保的職災的給付資料竟然有未滿15歲在營建工地"},{"start":3283.227,"end":3307.623,"text":"申請職災給付這根本不能工作的孩子的年齡竟然在工地上出事還有製造業工地的失能甚至還有兩例的死亡發生在這麼年輕的孩子的身上真的讓人家覺得心痛部長 這些只是被看見的那些沒有通報的到底有多少甚至他們就沒有來申報那你認為這底下到底還有多少黑數你怎麼看 你打算怎麼解決"},{"start":3311.978,"end":3340.481,"text":"跟委員報告現在的資料裡面我們從那個那個災保那邊的數字確實都有掌握一些目前不管是我們這個未滿18歲的兒少他們在不管在工作場所裡面的一些失能或傷害甚至剛剛委員提到的這些死亡人數那其實這幾年我們也是這部分加強在做一些勞檢跟宣導那他現在的牽能率也是逐年在下降當中我們會持續來努力"},{"start":3341.735,"end":3365.581,"text":"因為我認為靠勞檢補破網根本就是來不及如果是少年真的他有急迫性的經濟需求年紀越少越小的話何妨職場都不收所以他就會往高風險的工作流動所以部長我問的非常簡單一句話願不願意支持把青少年完整的就業權益保障那個措施跟職癌的協助寫進救福法裡面"},{"start":3366.24,"end":3386.353,"text":"跟文說明因為剛剛如果剛剛委員上面寫如果是未成年人如果是未成年這四個字的話那涵蓋範圍非常廣甚至可能會被認為可是你沒有辦法把它單一的去寫更多對所以我的意思說因為如果是未成年人的話那可能比方說六歲的兒童也是未成年人"},{"start":3387.353,"end":3403.868,"text":"是可是你的另外一個法律本來也就是16到18才可以去工作對所以我的意思是說我覺得大家可以來研商一下關於這個條文的這個文字的處理那怎麼樣可以比較精準的捕捉"},{"start":3405.009,"end":3424.871,"text":"委員長指涉的這一群這一群對象我覺得這群真的很需要但也不至於擴到太大因為如果當然寫未成年可能外界也會那6歲也是那這個8歲也是那這可能就不是委員的本意這樣子所以我覺得在條文的文字上面我們怎麼處理到比較精準的可以"},{"start":3425.492,"end":3436.628,"text":"捕捉落定到可能是現在大家比較擔心的這些就業的弱勢 我覺得我們可以從這部分來延伸到時候在主條審查的時候我想部長應該我們現在有一些公視應該要對於"},{"start":3438.4,"end":3464.444,"text":"這一群真的已經在職場當中工作也是合法的16到18的這些未成年應該要給一些協助但我想我們可以再討論一下文字怎麼樣落比較合適然後不會有範圍擴大或者是會有涵蓋不足的問題謝謝部長部長問的社工保的是勞保適用所有勞動法規這點毫無疑問我也知道多數社福機構很努力照顧社工可現實就是"},{"start":3465.164,"end":3491.604,"text":"還是有固定的比例的社工在欠薪 拖薪變相減薪的狀態旨在不是只有被打被咬還有爆發心理創傷社安網出事就怪社工的輿論的獵巫高案量的壓力衛福部三年前的一個統計就是說5824名的社安網的社工有1188名遭受到口頭的辱罵 威脅肢體暴力等不當對待比例高達兩成"},{"start":3492.705,"end":3509.468,"text":"其中光是口頭入罵就佔了六成以上更別說一定還有一些黑數部長我就直接問勞動部如何認知到什麼是高風險職場那麼有社工有10到20%的機率被罵被威脅甚至被打這算安全的職場嗎"},{"start":3512.673,"end":3530.586,"text":"當然其實就像委員說的其實社工是一個社會上非常非常重要的助人的職業尤其是在一些高風險的情境裡面有時候看到社工也會面對到一些人身上的安全所以我覺得他應該也是要大家優先保護的對象"},{"start":3531.767,"end":3560.73,"text":"那至於社工的高風險的情境的問題我覺得我們是很願意來跟衛福部一起來討論跟合作因為其實衛福部會對於社工的類別跟風險的情境會比我們更加的熟悉所以我想我們是很願意來跟衛福部來討論說哪些比較重點的風險的情境那我們也會請我們治安署來跟衛福部來討論是不是要重點來促使大家把法尊做得更落實"},{"start":3561.451,"end":3585.594,"text":"部長 我很高興聽到你講這句話我自己當了幾十年的社工我過去同時也是機構的主管我一定是站在這群助人工作者這邊來問你那如果你跟他講說未來你們要去做這樣的話那我們還是很希望你能跟貴府部去討論到針對於社工的勞動權益跟職業安全這一塊實際在推動的方案到底有哪些"},{"start":3586.074,"end":3600.305,"text":"還有哪些固定協調的機制真的要去做另外一個就是依這次新修的職安法跟相關法規實務上到底要怎麼用在社工我想先問部長政府內部的契約社工勞動身份最模糊了"},{"start":3600.885,"end":3624.294,"text":"不像正式公務員 都是保勞保但是又背著公務體系責任在公部門裡邊的契約社工約聘 約僱 約用 值待依循著不同辦法來禁用部長 他們遇到職場霸凌的時候要走什麼申訴管道因為我最近辦公室接到好幾期那責任制 加班權益都沒有辦法解決的時候勞動部又應該認為要怎麼處理"},{"start":3626.523,"end":3650.112,"text":"委員剛才講的這兩件事情 一個事情是如果遇到霸凌那當然公募門系統下面的社工這個越過人的話在我們現在的規範裡面基本上還是適用治安法來處理那剛剛在講到說另外是責任制公使的問題這當然會有另外其他在勞基法相關的法規來處理包含加班嗎 甚至有時候他們權益沒辦法的時候那到底要怎麼去"},{"start":3651.602,"end":3663.575,"text":"一樣用職安法嗎不是加班的問題就用勞基法所以這是不同的霸凌是用職安法但是加班的那種工時的問題他就是用勞基法來處理"},{"start":3665.737,"end":3681.228,"text":"請部長會後一週內是不是告訴我們這兩年實際處理的案件以及要讓公部門約聘僱的社工知道他們自己如何保障他自己的權益可以嗎我想如果社工問到勞動相關的權益一樣應該都是可以跟地方政府勞政主管機關來做申訴"},{"start":3682.449,"end":3701.144,"text":"那申訴管道我想應該是暢通的那我們會來督導地方政府應該要積極的來處理相關的案件那再麻煩部長最後一個就是部長多數社福機構都不是惡意剝削可是卡在制度跟資源當中而社工常常連過勞心理創傷算不算紙災自己都不敢確定"},{"start":3701.864,"end":3716.114,"text":"所以很少主動爭取所以我就問四個比較具體的問題第一個現在部分縣市已經在做社福機構的法尊法事部長你知道成效如何嗎中央有沒有主動了解能不能由勞動部來提升量能來統籌推動"},{"start":3719.461,"end":3734.168,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在我們除了勞動條件檢查以外這個法遵法施的量也一直在提升那這近三年的話那像剛剛提到的這個社會福利機構我們大概法遵法施大概到五千場次"},{"start":3734.929,"end":3763.308,"text":"我覺得甚至可不可以就為什麼不能用中央來推因為勞動部對中小企業說可以提供客製化的法尊訪視那社福機構沒有道理不能部長你願不願意跟衛福部一起規劃納入專屬社福機構的法尊訪視內容然後有沒有這部分不知道有沒有問題根文報告當然我覺得我們是很樂意跟衛福部來討論就是對於社福機構的那另外一方面其實因為現在"},{"start":3764.471,"end":3793.977,"text":"也有蠻多個非常有行動力的社工的工會那我們也覺得其實這幾年社工工會其實也提出很多很重要的權力上面的倡議然後也協助行政部門解決或提出我覺得也提出很多重要的問題所以我覺得我們在這些相關的工作上面我們很願意尤其是跟社工的工會一起來做合作那我相信其實可以把對於這些機構的法尊可以做得更到位"},{"start":3794.397,"end":3809.513,"text":"我想謝謝部長因為我想不管是施工會或職業工會都非常關心這一群在現場工作那因為過去政府機關都會做行政指引可是這些指引都放在雲端製作成SOP放在抽屜裡面救不了精疲力竭"},{"start":3810.474,"end":3829.507,"text":"歷階的社工所以我們需要的是現場的法尊法事來雙向行政指導跟機構服務而且每年檢討分析出報告所以部長如果落實的話未來一年開一次會跟衛福部去做這樣的社福機構法尊法事的一個檢討這部分不知道能不能做到"},{"start":3830.407,"end":3851.616,"text":"我覺得我們是可以的我真的覺得要把工會一起找進來我覺得把工會一起找進來討論其實我覺得可以反映一些更更具體的問題而且我們幫助我們真的處理的更更更落實更到位那感謝不過這一題比較複雜我想也請部長讓主責的單位跟我們辦公室約時間我們再來討論詳細的謝謝"},{"start":3858.447,"end":3869.412,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請陳昭資委員委員發言謝謝主席麻煩洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":3877.538,"end":3891.134,"text":"陳委員長 部長長 部長 勞保改革大概是政府無法迴避的責任那我們都清楚改革的方向大概就是一個多角少嶺這政府撥補三管齊下那我們今天排審的這個勞保條例就是要將政府撥補還有最終責任"},{"start":3893.397,"end":3907.758,"text":"這個責任的入法那三黨的立委都有共識都有提案那剛剛國情委員在做提案說明的時候也講到當年您也參加聯署了所以這個法案是三黨大家都有共識是非常在這一屆的國會非常的難得"},{"start":3908.439,"end":3925.891,"text":"那雖然行政院一直沒有版本出來但部長您在這裡有講過說如果您保持開放態度如果立法院通過了這樣的法案你會就是依法履行但我必須要說今天的修法是勞保改革中其實是比較容易的"},{"start":3926.491,"end":3952.918,"text":"因為勞保要永續不能只是靠撥補還需要這個開源節流那開源就是多角那節流就是這個少領啊但部長您自己講過說沒有要砍幾戶的計畫也就是說節流的部分您是把它保留了就是排除在改革的方案之外那我就請教部長那開源的部分呢勞動部有規劃要提高保費和投保薪資上限嗎"},{"start":3955.497,"end":3973.117,"text":"跟文說明那其實對於勞保的財務的問題當然從政府的角度我們一直非常非常的關注這也是為什麼這幾年下來其實行政院不斷的願意從這個"},{"start":3975.599,"end":3994.171,"text":"這個整體的公務預算的水庫裡面那來做這個撥補的動作你還是在留在撥補這個階段第二個是其實我們在我們在基金的投資上面我想這幾年的效益也是非常好的那這也都為我們整體基金的水位提供很重要的活水所以"},{"start":3994.491,"end":4021.662,"text":"OK 謝謝你我了解這個勞保改革不是說一個部會可以撐得起來因為大家都講提到數字了嘛攸關這個千萬勞工的生活保障的改革那其實是要請總統勇於承擔的為什麼呢因為藍綠白三位總統候選人他們在競選的時候都提出了要做勞保改革的國事論壇那當選後應該要做的那我想請問部長賴總統有要召開這個勞保改革的國事會議嗎"},{"start":4023.396,"end":4038.703,"text":"你曉得嗎我想其實對於他有要召開這個會議嗎我想的確現在對於整體勞保的財務上面的一些社會的討論我們都持續在收集所以剛剛在講到我應該講到說可能是要多繳或者是少領但這都會比較多"},{"start":4039.804,"end":4054.855,"text":"你回答我意思說那總統上任到今天他有向勞動部提起說要召開相關的這個國事會議嗎因為這個在競選的時候三黨的候選人都總統的候選人都提出來了那他要沒有要這樣做"},{"start":4055.435,"end":4075.906,"text":"我們目前就是持續我們就是目前在持續在收集各界對勞保的意見就是說我還是要請您提醒總統任期過了一半一年半總統要趕快趕緊召開這個勞改國序會議因為否則勞保基金之前是2028年破產那今天有一些數字這也不清反正就是近年什麼2031這個會破產那這個對"},{"start":4081.569,"end":4101.068,"text":"賴總統想要這個尋求連任難道也不是一個危機嗎部長我要請教你我們修法讓80歲的長者面80量表就可以聘請外籍看護那勞動部當時說我們80歲以上的人口有91萬其中健康人口有53萬假設只有三成的健康者要提出申請也會產生16萬名的這個看護家庭看護的需求"},{"start":4104.471,"end":4130.811,"text":"那加上每年自然增加的一萬所以當時您估算的是有十幾萬可能是七萬左右的這個缺口那現在賴總統啊 當時那個部長您估的跟實際上差很大您估的一二十萬 當時講的好像天天要幫下去結果到現在好像八千多個申請您還才核准兩三千個那我要講的是賴總統現在就給你功課了他要開放十二歲以下一孩家庭申請幫傭 外籍幫傭 請問部長"},{"start":4132.392,"end":4144.71,"text":"我國12歲以下一孩家庭全國大概有幾戶目前可能大概幾戶 數據在補我們數據在補 對所以總統講的你都沒有去算"},{"start":4145.679,"end":4166.196,"text":"但我們現在在評估中 可是目前那大概幾成 好 他先算母數我手邊大概也有啦請問勞動部估計大概有幾成就像你當時這樣估算80歲以上長者那你覺得符合這個一孩家庭的這樣的家庭家戶你認為有幾成的會申請會產生多少缺口呢"},{"start":4167.08,"end":4179.816,"text":"現在就是在評估中還在算 總統講完 你都這樣放的他回答很快來 部長 家庭康護工有22萬人家庭幫傭只有2000人 是100倍之差喔如果人數比較多的康護會缺工"},{"start":4183.239,"end":4203.664,"text":"那稀少的邦誉不是更嚴重嗎這是更嚴重 但這就是賴總統的政策 他公開講了所以本席有個建議 等一下還是要請你補數字你不如先從真正有需要的家庭開放例如遲緩兒的家庭我國的遲緩兒通報數字不斷的上升每年大概有4萬人"},{"start":4205.825,"end":4229.58,"text":"那因為這些家庭的爸爸媽媽都需要多陪伴他帶他去找的他需要有人來讓他放手讓他去協助他的這個家務勞動那如果是以家庭為單位4萬人應該會比4萬還少所以如果總統真的要開放12歲一孩的家庭能夠申請外籍邦傭的話是否從這些類似這個吃緩兒家庭開始您贊同嗎"},{"start":4230.461,"end":4252.592,"text":"跟委員說明其實行政院也有指示那可能針對多元的家庭的狀況都希望可以納入評估有數字了嗎現在就在評估中但是我剛才說按照行政院的指示多元家庭的需求也應該放進來"},{"start":4253.792,"end":4267.788,"text":"都沒有問過你們沒有數字在手上就承諾啦12歲一孩的家庭要不是這樣子的我們現在是在我們現在是在整體的評估之中但是你要接手啊"},{"start":4269.838,"end":4287.807,"text":"原來你們不知道我有數字我也先保留現在法律有規定部長這個職缺薪資沒有達4萬的時候不可以徵才的時候不可以寫免疫薪水不可以寫免疫但這幾年來整體薪水有成長所以去年勞動部有說今天要修法把這個4萬改成5萬"},{"start":4289.228,"end":4303.554,"text":"當然這有助於企業的競爭力跟這個爭取人才嘛但今年都快過了你有提出修法嗎還沒有吧還沒有提出來嘛跟委員說明我們現在一直持續在研議就是要把原本的4萬拉高到5萬或者是"},{"start":4304.614,"end":4316.471,"text":"或者是用一個最低工資的倍數啦因為最低工資也一直在提高所以也有一些建議是說可以提高變成是一個最低工資的固定某個倍數那會隨著最低工資的調漲那這個"},{"start":4320.276,"end":4338.111,"text":"薪資透明化的這個金額也可以提高因為有承諾說要提高5萬那你自己要什麼方法能夠符合實際的我們現在當然在做這些法案的研議那我想我們也希望盡快在一段時間研議我們會趕快提出來媒體的報告報道說薪資揭露的規定上路以來有受理440件的檢舉只開罰了55件開罰率很低"},{"start":4343.436,"end":4366.595,"text":"所以很多勞工都說這個中原歧視上面寫免疫結果面試時開的薪水卻低於4萬請問部長這個要如何舉證你要處理如何處理讓企業真的落實你既然有法啦我想如果企業在4萬如果目前企業在4萬以下寫免疫的話這當然就是違反了薪資透明化的這個做法那這個相關的市政其實來做檢舉應該就是會被開罰為什麼440件檢舉只有55件開罰呢"},{"start":4373.242,"end":4392.19,"text":"我們其實需要的是要提出具體的事證那目前我們的數字上面看起來你說的好那你又煩那你怎麼提出證是面試的時候要帶錄音機嗎不是面試帶錄音機可能是他相關的這個徵才的文件廣告或者是相關的欄位其實應該都會看到比方說他是怎麼樣來寫的"},{"start":4394.653,"end":4423.404,"text":"好部長我今天覺得有件事還是嚴重賴總統公開說他要開放全國12歲以下一孩家庭有一個孩子12歲以下就要開放這個外籍幫傭但是他不知道數字ok的日理萬機但是我沒有想到部長你接下來你有聽到你現在還沒有我們一直密切在評估之中你有數字你剛剛說因為我手邊現在沒有數字那你的部署都沒有數字嗎現在我們手邊沒有因為我們是在評估中對"},{"start":4425.567,"end":4437.644,"text":"現在我們在評估中 現在官方的數字是沒有啦官方數字沒有 但是各種研究 很多報告資料 部長因為很多研究有去做 學術研究200萬戶啦200萬戶啊 那你怎麼接受"},{"start":4441.294,"end":4469.825,"text":"但也並不是兩百萬並不是兩百萬戶都有這個需求確實有一些家庭有表達他有這樣的需求但也並不是所有的家庭都有這樣的需求八四量表你估得很離譜快將近二十萬結果現在你核准兩千多嘛那個時候就不許我們現在是三個月八四量表是三個月的時間其實現在有一萬了"},{"start":4471.539,"end":4493.531,"text":"三個月多出1萬如果按照這個數字的話一年是會有增加4萬那現在又多一個問題嘛就是說這個估算一年可能會增加4萬4萬都確實比過去的這個增加的數字來的多啊那請你再估算一下好好再評估總統發出對全國人民發出的承諾謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":4508.018,"end":4512.592,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請洪川部長請洪部長"},{"start":4517.079,"end":4543.956,"text":"好 部長我是很不想要用我的執行時間繼續跟你討論這個議題但我希望可以一舉把它解決因為上禮拜呢我質詢了有關於你會拖欠回復立委公文這件事結果問完之後沒關係我知道你要講什麼我問完之後呢好多不分黨派喔不同委員會的委員喔紛紛都跑來跟我說他們也遇到這樣子的議題好"},{"start":4545.217,"end":4563.125,"text":"我知道你今天早上已經給我一些部分的公文裡面有很多數據複製缺乳啦比如說這個是華家沙風災後臨時工的收案狀況你拖了40天給我那目前你給我的報告不到一頁A4"},{"start":4564.005,"end":4590.784,"text":"那裡面的內容跟我在質詢台上問你的幾乎是一樣的我不太知道為什麼這樣子的東西需要拖40天給我另外有一些質詢率的問題我很明確的問到我希望給予質詢率但是婦女在就業計畫只有給我113年中高齡退休在準備協助補助計畫沒有給然後55plus只有給113年"},{"start":4592.805,"end":4612.499,"text":"然後美國關稅供應鏈支持方案執行率沒有給很多都已經上路了只是再強化而已也沒有給出來我是想要幫其他的委員問因為很多委員就跑來問我說怎麼會你遇到這個問題我們也遇到了結果有些吹哨子就跑出來了"},{"start":4613.28,"end":4634.965,"text":"他們說這些公文就壓在一個地方就是你的部長室就是你的部長室我詢問了一些以前跟你曾經做過同事的人大家都說你是一個非常認真負責的立法委員並且你也會追公文你也會跟部長追公文的我不知道為什麼你現在變成你以前口中很不喜歡的那樣子的人"},{"start":4635.825,"end":4655.15,"text":"所以很多委員在等我今天質詢這一頁我們希望徹底解決這個問題我們希望徹底解決問題你到底是有還是沒有親自授意部長室扣押或者是羈押要給立法院的公文有還是沒有你只要回答我們這句話就好了因為這個40天40天喔40天40天最後給出A4的當然沒有扣押你沒有扣押"},{"start":4661.682,"end":4683.897,"text":"跟委員說明像委員其實要的這幾份資料我上禮拜其實已經說了我會請我們的同仁到委員的辦公室也親自跟委員說明其實相關的資訊我會啊我會但是如果你可以來說明數據你為什麼不能把數據附在你回覆的公文裡面呢如果你都可以口頭說明了放到你的書面回覆裡面不是很好嗎"},{"start":4685.846,"end":4693.524,"text":"根文說明第一個沒有什麼扣押沒有什麼扣押的問題那能夠提供的數據當然我們就"},{"start":4694.897,"end":4721.709,"text":"我們可以來看一下我們的這個工作的流程可以怎麼樣子來加速我想這部分我們可以來看一下我覺得你可能需要加速因為我是遇到不分黨派的人他們都說你跟以前的部長不一樣以前的部長很快就回復了不知道為什麼你的總是要拖這麼久那第二個具體的請求也希望你在這邊承諾我們當然這個是我們去問了吹哨者告訴我們所有這樣子的現象那你可不可以在這邊也承諾說"},{"start":4722.489,"end":4739.096,"text":"不要去徹查是不是有人可能透露這些公文都留在你的部長室你不要徹查好嗎因為勞動部已經變成了霸凌的一個壞榜樣之前這些新聞事件我們不希望這個事件又發生一次可以嗎你可以在這裡承諾嗎委員沒有這件事情當然不會有什麼徹查的問題"},{"start":4744.815,"end":4769.076,"text":"沒關係我們當然不會再看我們希望不會有任何人接到你去關心的這個資訊你絕對可以放心再來賴總統任內每個勞動部部長都說要當全民的部長要當勞工的靠山但是在賴總統的任內目前有兩個靠山已經倒了我們希望你是第三座靠山"},{"start":4770.757,"end":4795.384,"text":"可以撐住那這個是11月14號勞動部公布了2024年國際勞動統計當然他們是綜合ILO OECD國家各國的勞動統計年刊勞動指標等等的這個你應該也知道台灣的總工時又多出來了名次從世界第六又攀升到世界第五這不是什麼值得光彩的事情"},{"start":4796.204,"end":4818.818,"text":"本席也非常的擔心 尤其是電子零組件最操勞他每年的工時到達2258.4小時好 我看了一下您過去的質詢其實你也蠻關心這樣子的議題的這是今年3月啊勞團才痛批勞動部部長 以前是他們的夥伴但是現在很多事情都不回應當時他們給出來的數據是我國總工時2023年高達2020小時喔"},{"start":4825.122,"end":4848.97,"text":"現在你自己發布的新數據又多出10個小時變成2030小時請問你可不可以簡短的講一講為什麼會這樣子然後你要做什麼跟委員說明其實我想要先釐清幾個因為的確我認為台灣的工時是有改善的空間但是並不是世界第五其實這是對於發布的資料有點誤讀"},{"start":4849.83,"end":4857.935,"text":"因為他並不是所有200多個國家裡面等一下我們先不用去爭辯名次我們先不用爭辯名次我把它補回去來來來我們先看一下我們先不用爭辯名次我們去比2023年也就是今年老團對你進行抗議的時候他們用的數據是2020小時那現在你自己新發布的是2030小時"},{"start":4874.165,"end":4897.228,"text":"我們如果姑且不論名次的話你針對這個工時不斷的增加你有沒有什麼具體的大策略的改善方案跟委員說明第一個確實在去年的總工時的部分其實數字上面的確是有提高那當然有一個很重要的原因就像剛剛委員說的電子零組件當然這跟整個國際上面在電子零組件上面的景氣有關係"},{"start":4898.749,"end":4927.824,"text":"那因为他的出口的需求然后经济状况好所以他也把这个整个工时往上点那我们也是意识到这件事情所以对劳动部来说我们这这么多年来持续的一直在希望提高最低工资那提高最低工资一个很重要的部分就是希望更多的劳工不要因为他的收入过低所以他必须要很依赖加班所以这也是为什么我们希望一直提高最低工资而且这是连续做了十年很重要的原因这是第一个"},{"start":4928.504,"end":4956.265,"text":"第二個我們當然也很希望就是僱主跟工會可以強化就是比方說跟工會的這個團體協約高於法尊的團體協約可以去約定一些更有利於員工生活平衡的工時那這部分我們一直在鼓勵好因為他們說如果沒有提出相關的政策的話可能不排除再次發動抗爭那我這邊也跟你檢討一些數據"},{"start":4959.308,"end":4983.206,"text":"這個是我們擔心的地方啦我們也希望中高齡者勞參率可以升加嘛這樣可以分攤一些我們國家的勞動力因為他們也有他們的智慧但是我把比較重要的地方圈起來了我們可以看到女性是55歲以後就雪崩式的往下掉男性則是60歲以後就往下掉代表什麼 代表我們"},{"start":4983.786,"end":5010.027,"text":"台灣的退休年齡低於世界其他的國家包括日本 韓國 新加坡等等65歲以上的勞參率不到10%但是這一波退休潮還沒結束這個也是你應該都熟能詳的現在正是四五年級陸續到了65歲法定退休年齡那再來我們估計六年級也逐漸的邁入中高齡所以16年後會有一波很大的退休潮"},{"start":5010.848,"end":5025.766,"text":"預估是667萬人陸續超過法定的退休年齡那你看下面這個圖也非常的清楚我們65歲以上勞參率就不好那我們接下來看著你的這三項的執行率齁"},{"start":5026.727,"end":5031.933,"text":"我們看婦女在就業計畫25%中高齡退休在就業計畫1.833.625.6以及這個55plus54.9我想知道這個"},{"start":5042.325,"end":5059.344,"text":"你是不是因為現在我們就是不分男女其實都不夠高了嘛我們都希望他們多多參與你有沒有考慮未來把這幾項計畫合在一起然後直接的拉高補助否則你的這個執行率always是慘不忍睹啊"},{"start":5059.904,"end":5078.342,"text":"跟委員說明第一個其實我已經請我們發案署針對這些執行率而且計劃的整併希望能夠做一個更大的檢討我說這個檢討裡面包括幾件事情因為的確在我們很多的就業計劃裡面其實過去是長年的一支一支的累積有的時候計劃跟計劃之間會有些重複"},{"start":5081.064,"end":5107.06,"text":"那这个重复的状况也会影响到执行率因为其实会有一些劳工他可能他知道一支计划但他不知道另外一支计划但也许他的身份是可以申请很多计划所以我们也在请文发案署把这些计划如果需要的话做相关的整并做整合型的计划这就是我刚刚建议你的这个整合型的计划如果做的时候他其实一次他可以知道有各种不同的资讯而不是他看到一支计划才去参与一个计划那其实对他来说也是一个负担所以这件事情我们现在也是在做"},{"start":5107.58,"end":5118.989,"text":"但如果委員剛才在說的跟中高齡勞工有關的事情的話我請我們發展署來說明一下這幾年中高齡在我們修了這個中高齡的專法之後那目前其實增加成效"},{"start":5122.301,"end":5145.648,"text":"因為我有跟你要114年現在都11月了你後來回覆報告裡面並沒有給我執行率你沒有給我執行率你有給我113年所以我真的想知道你114年做的怎麼樣114年現在還在啊已經到11月了我們可以到會議室你也可以告訴我是不是有變好嗎對不對可以啊當然"},{"start":5146.607,"end":5159.087,"text":"是有變好大概多少我再把相關的數據我們再請那你的做法是什麼我可以請您的同仁回答沒關係您的做法是什麼"},{"start":5162.011,"end":5184.557,"text":"目前在中高齡的部分我們預計要擴大55歲以上相關在職場支持以及退休後再就業準備以及55歲以上就業獎勵措施擴大補助範圍的運用可應用來增加提升方案的執行率好"},{"start":5186.527,"end":5213.674,"text":"剛剛部長你還缺我很多數據那我也希望說同仁可以盡快來我們就面對面的做一個presentation跟討論以及一起研擬怎麼樣可以提高質詢率我覺得OK好不好但是以後希望我剛剛第一頁所提到的狀況也不要再發生了跟我說明這絕對沒有什麼押公文這件事情或押資料都沒有這些事情那所以也不絕對不會有什麼你說會去查什麼"},{"start":5216.403,"end":5224.965,"text":"報料者的問題 這是絕對不會有這樣的事情你現在有具體承諾 我們也比較安心這樣我們才可以保護告訴我們這些資訊的人 謝謝部長你可以完全的放心謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請盧憲伊委員發言就是有請洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":5251.169,"end":5263.341,"text":"因為針對我們原住民的問題提出三個問題就是說我們我想問的態度就是目前我們想要修正原住民老年給付到修正到55歲我想說聽聽你的意見"},{"start":5266.433,"end":5291.762,"text":"跟文說明那其實對於這個原住民族下降到55歲的這個議題其實當然我們現在其實在評估跟研議中那我想細節我請文保演師來那我還是希望你心裡面有一些那個就是至少有一些Hint因為我們原住民大概都是在煮鷹架 搬水泥 綁乾淨 丁綁抹這些我們的原住民工人"},{"start":5292.322,"end":5314.002,"text":"我覺得說你繼續想像他們在65歲的時候還是還可以做到這方面的一個勞力的工作嗎因為大部分文明罪名的比例是46%是從事這些重工業或者是這些勞力耗損的一些職業所以你們要把這樣事實考量進去所以我們希望說能夠修到55歲"},{"start":5317.389,"end":5342.704,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟原民會跟相關社會保險主管機關都有討論過這個議題我們認為原民的相關的保障包括就業促進或者是社福的津貼所以又因為國際趨勢所以目前就是說目前的態度上面還是沒有辦法修正到55歲因為我們本來就有減額年金他本來就可以提前領"},{"start":5343.764,"end":5372.611,"text":"因为那是一次退没有减额年金是可以没有关系我们还是希望说不要是齐头式的平等希望能够实际的看看他们的劳动的劣势来考量到55岁的这个一个基准点第二个问题就是我希望当然我们大家都提到劳保追踪支付责任这个部分不过很像大部分都没有提到劳保财务敏感度的评估我们就针对66跟69条这个修正的部分那我希望说"},{"start":5373.351,"end":5401.752,"text":"能夠看看能不能就行業別年資斷裂還有投保急劇的這個財務試算或者說有沒有族群別勞動壽命或是私人風險這種財務敏感度的分析因為如果你不是做這樣的話你沒有辦法去看看哪些人是比較容易年資中斷哪些人的投保急劇長期偏低哪些人真的是活不到65歲所以如果你沒有做這些敏感度分析的話你就看不到這些差異"},{"start":5402.552,"end":5427.434,"text":"所以我希望因為你們勞保或者是健保這邊都有詳細的這些各年齡別或者是投保薪資這些資料如果你們真正願意做的話應該是可以把這些我們所謂勞保財務敏感度的評估可以把它做出來跟委員報告各個就是我國人口的平均移民或原民的平均移民其實我們內政部都有在做"},{"start":5428.668,"end":5448.14,"text":"對那有關勞保的有工作就參加勞保沒有工作就參加國保所以在勞保的這一塊大家都是一體來適用那我們也有在勞保條例58條有規定如果工作是堅強體力的工作的話他也可以提早來領老年給付"},{"start":5448.24,"end":5467.615,"text":"沒有錯可是我的意思說希望能夠勞動部這邊的可以啟動做這些我們剛才講的勞務財務敏感度的評估也就是說你從你的年資斷裂投保集聚這些來做財務的試算那希望因為目前沒有看到這些資料所以我希望勞動部可以做一個那個"},{"start":5469.277,"end":5489.696,"text":"啟動了這樣一個機制讓這些長期在比如說容易年資斷裂或者是說他沒有辦法我們就像我們的平均沒有辦法到達65歲了沒有辦法真正請領到這些他所付出的所以這些部分因為你都沒有去做過試算所以我們就看不到所謂的資料"},{"start":5492.045,"end":5507.683,"text":"是 各位報告 其實原民在55歲到64歲中間他們也可以領原住民給付那連結到65歲他可以領這個部分可能我們再找時間到報告室討論因為我覺得我們遇到很多實際的案例"},{"start":5508.824,"end":5532.593,"text":"最後一點點時間 我想說之前我有提到就是單身的權益還有就是彝族年金這個部分因為我們目前看到的就是如果你是單身過世後彝族年金形同被充公對勞工顯然是不公平所以我想說能不能按照公教保險法落實勞工的自主意志讓他們可以指定受益人我想知道我們部長的態度"},{"start":5534.634,"end":5549.261,"text":"跟文說明其實因為勞保的這個性質尤其是遺屬年輕的性質其實其實不太一樣我想請這個因為時間的關係我想說公交保險這裡面其實有做視線那我請我們市長來說明一下因為這個條文跟視線之間的關係"},{"start":5556.284,"end":5575.427,"text":"是跟委員報告就是老保的給付他是一個保險給付他跟一般私人的財產不一樣那跟到大法官會議釋字第549號解釋就認為移屬津貼他的性質是所得的替代所以他是要保障移屬生活無虞所以他必須是受被保險"},{"start":5577.369,"end":5592.332,"text":"生前來撫養為條件他不是遺產 既然不是遺產他就不可以生前來指定那所以有關的受益人的這個順序啦或者是條件標準等等保險就是勞保條例裡面都有一個範定的"},{"start":5592.532,"end":5615.764,"text":"沒關係我們辦公室可能會提出一個修正的法案因為我想還是提醒部長我們原住民目前未婚比例大概39.88也就是四成沒有結婚所以可是未婚並不代表他們沒有家庭部落為例我們原住民的家庭跟一般漢人家庭不太一樣我們大概都是兄弟姊妹表兄弟姊妹這些都是關係是非常緊密的會看到姊姊公養弟弟子女照顧阿姨"},{"start":5616.264,"end":5640.314,"text":"然后母舅的关系是反而在这个家庭里面的那个关系是他的权利是很大的所以我们现在所看到是照顾啊付出啊结果现行的保险制度里面被视为不存在所以只是用一个就是说比不上制度认定的那个受抚养这三个字所以我觉得最不合理就是劳工一辈子缴的保费他应该领的这些年金呢竟然"},{"start":5640.854,"end":5660.739,"text":"不是他真正照顧他的人領走而是被國家 被以制度缺口這樣方式收回去你不覺得這樣對真正在照顧的人的公平性或者說那個保障完全都沒有嗎跟委員說明因為其實勞保本身就是社會保險社會保險裡面本來就會有世代互助的性質"},{"start":5662.299,"end":5682.8,"text":"那剛剛其實市長我們遇到一個在這個議題上面最大的一個癥結點是在於因為大法官的549號的解釋在大法官的解釋裡面其實已經說明的很清楚他其實是所得的替代他並不是遺產那因為是所得的替代所以他就不是像遺產可以"},{"start":5684.241,"end":5713.941,"text":"任意的來指定指定就有點像是變成是好像是這個被保險的遺產他可以指定那如果他身後他要指定給誰就不是這個性質所以主要主要的問題是發生在這個市縣的這個這個這個549號這裡面所以這並不是我們想怎麼修或者是我們今天想要怎麼解釋就能解釋我是希望說因為勞保是強制性的社會保險他保障應該比公教更強而不是更弱我們從這個方向來努力好不好"},{"start":5715.482,"end":5741.472,"text":"我們怎麼修端還是不能夠去違逆憲法法庭他的相關的解釋我們再提修正這個是比較大的問題是在這個地方那能不能看看我們再提出修法然後看看能不能獲得多數委員的同意或是支持再請部長給指教但是重點是憲法法庭的解釋啊這個是私自的解釋我不可能去行政部門我不可能去違逆事件的結果啊對啊"},{"start":5755.367,"end":5760.31,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝我們接續請王玉敏委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請我們洪部長部長請另外那個主計處專門委員也請"},{"start":5777.697,"end":5794.065,"text":"部長我們今天討論的這個議題其實是很關鍵千萬勞工都在看就是說勞保基金面臨破產的問題這個是大家都知道的事情從2017年開始它的收支就呈現了不平衡"},{"start":5794.905,"end":5812.134,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下目前民進黨執政9年採取的都是撥補的措施沒有進行任何的改革那也就是這樣子今天才會有這麼多的委員希望既然現在短期採取撥補那不能說今天想要撥100億就100億"},{"start":5813.935,"end":5839.295,"text":"明年200億就是說很任意性的沒有一個固定的撥補的金額或是一定程度以上撥補的金額勞工不會安心所以今天才會有委員的版本其實也提出就是至少千億這樣的一個規模那首先我就要問部長你對於這個撥補你的立場是支持還是反對你說開放開放到底是支持還是反對"},{"start":5840.44,"end":5864.87,"text":"撥補是我們現在持續在做的所以入法你是支持的撥補兩個字入法我想這個撥補的法制化我們是同意的但是你們反對就是限定金額主要是因為財政紀律財政紀律法裡面其實有明定你們現在其實坦白講也都千億規模啦有可能再更少嗎但是這不是少不少的問題是沒有辦法把固定金額入法"},{"start":5865.984,"end":5876.918,"text":"沒有辦法把固定金額入法那如果沒有辦法固定金額入法你要勞工怎麼相信就是我們的政府一定撥補的額度會讓他們不會憂慮短期之間沒有領不到錢的問題"},{"start":5881.785,"end":5907.325,"text":"其實我們這幾年從去年是撥補了1300億那今年其實今年公務預算是1200那接下來也包括特別預算裡面有100億所以這其實都目前都朝向超過1000億以上的金額在撥補那我們當然我們會是財政的狀況我想我們會極力的爭取未來不要低於這個金額那甚至我也希望能夠高於這個金額"},{"start":5908.365,"end":5911.981,"text":"所以你能保證未來的撥補的金額不會低於1300億"},{"start":5914.599,"end":5938.486,"text":"委員這不是保證的問題但我們會盡力的爭取而這幾年我們其實用實際的行動來去對呀 部長如果部長如果你沒有辦法掛保證然後呢這個入法又不肯洩明勞工就會不安心啊委員其實你可以你也可以保證啊沒有寫固定的數字你可以說你當部長的時候我保證一定爭取超過1300億爭取我當然都要盡力爭取爭取我絕對保證"},{"start":5941.627,"end":5966.412,"text":"可是因為實際的金額能夠有多少這還關乎到整個國家的財政關乎到組總的權責所以爭取 如果是爭取的話我當然一定爭取我一定保證爭取主席處你們今天的報告裡面你們是反對撥補的對不對基本上不是反對我沒有看到支持兩個字你的通篇報告裡面只有說這個下一頁"},{"start":5967.991,"end":5989.657,"text":"主計總數說要秉持裁員自給自足制度設計要雇主勞工政府三方共同負擔保費但你們沒有明確去回應今天的修法是支持或反對基本上我們其實是建議說在撥補之餘還是要考量整體的這個收支結構的調整要並同來考量以上為什麼為什麼是這樣的考量"},{"start":5990.359,"end":6001.969,"text":"因為這個是社會保險他基本上制度上的設計就是要由本來的這個雇主還有這個勞工還有我們政府一起來共同面對這個財務責任因為你們知道再怎麼撥補"},{"start":6004.383,"end":6023.388,"text":"就是也補不了對不對你看看這張圖事實上我必須坦白講我們的撥補只是一個短期讓勞工安心的措施這張圖表如果大家認真看未來50年勞保基金的收支表你可以看到他的支出是紅色的這條線"},{"start":6025.874,"end":6038.664,"text":"這個將來的這個金額這個大家仔細認真看 將來這個金額都是突破上兆以上的這個金額那我們的收入都不會動"},{"start":6041.264,"end":6063.124,"text":"這個是引用你們的我們藍色的這條線保費的收入完全都不動現在大概都是4500億不會增加那中間的落差你就是要靠如果現在這個民進黨政府持續說撥補就是改革要靠撥補的話我跟各位講到123年的時候支出已經來到1兆500億"},{"start":6065.025,"end":6085.881,"text":"這個的逆差 收支的逆差會來到6000億部長 你應該好好看這個數字喔如果你不敢承諾1300億至少的撥補 事實上你來到123年 10年以後這個的逆差恐怕已經是 我不知道政府要花多少力氣129年的時候已經達到1兆"},{"start":6089.366,"end":6110.195,"text":"就是這樣的一個速度跟規模所以我也必須提醒大家撥補及時改革它是一個短期短期的效果長期的主計處講了大白話長期你如果整個保險制度你沒有做任何調整跟改革最終它就是這樣的效果政府有可能拿一兆以上的資金來撥補嗎"},{"start":6111.215,"end":6134.948,"text":"跟委員說明所以我才說我們當然希望我們當然希望極力爭取撥補甚至也希望爭取撥補的金額能夠高於現在撥補的金額那第二個其實這幾年我們其實在基金的投資上面其實也有很大的斬獲這也讓我們現在整體的基金的水位現在其實到了1兆2超過1兆2了像今年可能也增加超過2000億"},{"start":6136.189,"end":6159.106,"text":"那所謂除了撥補跟基金的投資其實都是在我們希望盡量去維持這個基金水位我覺得很明確而具體的做法那當然委員在講的提醒我覺得也很重要那不過的確今天在給付或者是在保費上面的調整這當然攸關更多的勞工的權益所以這部分當然我覺得可能會需要一個社會更大的共識"},{"start":6159.994,"end":6174.332,"text":"但你有在思考這件事嗎有在研議這件事嗎還是波普及時改革從何佩珊講完之後這個就是政策其實也不用去思考未來更長期的改革各種的狀況跟情境我們當然都必須要思考"},{"start":6175.493,"end":6202.553,"text":"但是不同的做法也會在社會上面產生不同的意見我知道 執政其實必須就是要負責這一個問題我已經從許明春部長問到現在了許明春部長的時候他說有我們有一個小組請問那個小組還存在嗎他說那時候他還有一個小組他說我們還是持續在開會啊我們在研議那我問一下洪部長請問許明春時代的那一個針對勞保年金的改革的小組"},{"start":6204.057,"end":6222.075,"text":"還在嗎還是早就已經不在了這個議題其實根本沒有人要做長期的跟委員說明這不一定是什麼小組可是第一個是在這個議題裡面的各種的情境各種可能性其實勞動部都必須要去思考撥補是一個做法其中之一要研議吧不是只有思考"},{"start":6222.896,"end":6238.055,"text":"撥補是其中之一那基金的投資也是那我們也在做其他開源節流的部分那當然如果委員是要問比方說降幾付或者是提高費率這部分當然就是要做整體的評估"},{"start":6240.314,"end":6266.688,"text":"這個部長你們可不可以提一個報告如果就我這樣的觀察123年喔這個收支逆差達到6000億喔你們會如何的改善然後預計要撥補多少基金投資收益要多少然後你剛剛說我還聽到你們要拍賣你們的資產就是說不動產就是來增加一些收益我是從媒體看到我不知道這個是不是確實的這不是我們主要的做法"},{"start":6267.608,"end":6280.858,"text":"對那我希望你們提一個報告好不好至少是10年10年的你們怎麼樣去因應這樣的一個收支的一個逆差的一個報告你們提的出來嗎我想我們可以給委員一份說明可以吼好那要多久可以給本席兩個月"},{"start":6284.305,"end":6302.792,"text":"兩個月好那我希望可以看到這份報告接下來我要問那個移工的問題我直接看那個最後那個移工的那個開放政策移工的開放政策即將要破百萬那這樣的一個準備我們準備好了沒有最近大家都在看這個詐騙"},{"start":6304.313,"end":6318.568,"text":"那最近有幾起的新聞報導我覺得也讓人家有點擔心就是因為我們失聯移工的這個人數其實也持續在增加當中那是不是有人去吸收他們就是有失聯移工去監這個車手然後這個"},{"start":6323.174,"end":6342.097,"text":"被抓到這樣的一個情況今天好像移民署也有來就是說面對這樣的一個情況你們發現現在的現況的比例到底是多還是是少因為我們這個是初步的這樣的一個統計外籍車手有1000人這個情況部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":6343.058,"end":6354.852,"text":"我們其實都一直看到相關的資訊然後其實也有請我們的法案署跟移民署那包括跟警政單位來做一些協同的討論我請這部分請我們署長來說明"},{"start":6356.038,"end":6381.838,"text":"好來署長請說包委員其實這個情況我們一直在跨部會的平台裡面我們也是member之一那我們其實透過從他的入境入境的時候以及入境後透過各樣的管道以及各樣實體或數位的課程我們做了非常多的宣導跟教育訓練那只要有類似這樣的案件的時候其實我們在第一線地方政府也都會透過相關的資訊做通報"},{"start":6384.008,"end":6399.948,"text":"因為我們現在需要這個外籍移工的比例各行各業都上升最近其實又放寬了一波但是我要提醒的就是勞動部跟移民署就是一方面放寬的同時我們的這個管理其實也很重要不是說因為"},{"start":6401.149,"end":6416.895,"text":"放寬之後然後進來然後這個逃逸的移工人數又增加那逃逸的增加有一些部分失聯還變成是車手變成是犯罪集團去吸收一部分那這個對於台灣的整體的我們的社會秩序跟環境就不是一件好事"},{"start":6417.395,"end":6438.893,"text":"所以管理的責任在勞動部跟移民署你們有管理的責任我希望這一塊要去強化要不然這樣我看起來是另外一層的隱憂對台灣的社會安全其實形成了隱憂跟我說其實我們一直在跟來源母國討論那怎麼樣子不管是宣導也好或者是也要請來源母國協助那針對這個如果移工來台失聯的問題的話他們其實也應該要幫忙這個"},{"start":6445.678,"end":6462.592,"text":"做一些相對應的處置這我們也是在跟他們討論那第二個也是其實移工事業的問題其實某些部分也會跟這個強迫勞動的議題有關係所以我們其實接下來也會針對強迫勞動的議題進行一些相對應的這個策略來提出那我們都認為這可能會對於"},{"start":6463.853,"end":6477.121,"text":"這個移工失聯的狀況那能夠有些幫助好我希望你們關注這一塊因為百萬移工即將要到來那我不希望這個又變成形成我們另外一個在治安或者是在社會秩序上面的引誘好不好謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言現在請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":6490.407,"end":6517.081,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請部長還有勞保局白局長還有基金應用局蘇局長請部長蘇緣好今天大家都在替你擔心缺口是3.5兆這是怎麼算來的啊"},{"start":6518.194,"end":6520.325,"text":"你是小心要蓋然後把費率在那裡鋪陳"},{"start":6522.689,"end":6549.577,"text":"委員並不是 這個你講的是潛藏負債那這個勞保基金的這個潛藏的負債其實主要的原因它其實是因為這個因為勞保是確定給付制嘛那在這確定給付制裡面其實我們不一定之前都不一定是有逐年這個提滿它的這個費率那費率可能是逐年的調高"},{"start":6550.277,"end":6572.711,"text":"那所以其實在我們在看到各國的公共的基金的這個保險社會保險的公共基金裡面其實都會看到潛藏負債的狀況那這個潛藏負債的狀況並不會一次就實現所以我們看聽說勞保破產差不多聽了十幾年了每年都要破產每年都要過每年都過關頭過身就過我們現在勞保費率是12.5%嘛"},{"start":6578.394,"end":6601.443,"text":"那裡面一般的是11.5%嗎12.5%是包括救保救保1%所以11.5%那這個11.5%有沒有在漲價的空間我們到116年是12%到 我覺得慢慢的會加到100到12%那有沒有打算又再漲"},{"start":6602.677,"end":6616.416,"text":"因為最有效的方法就是漲費率當然漲費率你要看勞工會不會動公司行會不會動跟我的說明的確不管是漲費率或者是相對的做法因為它確實會"},{"start":6618.439,"end":6637.429,"text":"涉及到比方說勞工或者是企業的這個部分所以這當然我們有聽當然各界會有人提出這樣子的主張但是的確這會需要也需要一些社會的討論跟社會的共識因為這也涉及到勞工的權益所以近期內沒有發生要去匯率吧"},{"start":6640.247,"end":6665.653,"text":"我們目前有人就叫你召開國事會議有人召開什麼東東的然後看起來都是在在研議研議研議嘛對我覺得各種做法當然我們都必須要有一些評估跟思考啦可是每個做法重點是他後面在社會接受度的可行性上面也要一併的考慮所以在你任內應該這個會議不會往上調啦這個跟這個衛福部部長那種執行的感觀"},{"start":6667.954,"end":6691.387,"text":"我覺得我們現在當然就是包括是基金投資這幾年的收益很好也包括像現在持續的爭取撥補也很謝謝行政院跟組總願意在我們現在很辛苦的國家財政之下還是願意給勞保一定額度明年一千二以上的這樣子的撥補的金額"},{"start":6692.748,"end":6712.217,"text":"我想這部分要很謝謝主席我們現在勞保基金差不多1.2兆嘛勞動基金差不多7.43兆差不多嘛那新制的勞退基金4.9兆然後就職的差不多1.03兆所以加起來是10幾兆啊1313嘛勞動基金就是包含新制"},{"start":6722.74,"end":6733.671,"text":"7.4兆就是兩個加起來所有的勞動基金加起來是7.4兆所以你現在13兆那你又缺口又13.5兆你現在在玩魔術13兆是遣償負債它不是一定會實現的數字遣償負債"},{"start":6742.641,"end":6763.781,"text":"學者專家吃飽太遠都要想人想事常常聽到一天到晚恐嚇勒索我覺得我們傳統產業最近是蠻辛苦的台灣是靠單一的一個產業晶片產業佔了GDP的將近六七十%這是很可怕的事情"},{"start":6765.203,"end":6780.692,"text":"萬一這個有點閃失的話整個是會像荷蘭這樣人家講荷蘭病荷蘭病荷蘭病就是在說什麼他們就是整個投到石化業因為整個北海挖到石油之後荷蘭可以分到錢就整個國家瘋狂都在搞石化業"},{"start":6782.142,"end":6801.761,"text":"搞一搞到最後就出事啦油價一噴盤 抓竊了我們台灣現在都在課晶片那個看起來是很棒的稅金也一大部分從那邊來那我們傳統產業自己又現在美國關稅又搞一搞的話是會很慘的耶所以某地方你有要注意一點"},{"start":6803.682,"end":6819.827,"text":"這當然這是整體台灣的產業經濟的狀況也會有關於勞工的各種的條件跟待遇當然好所以短期內我們匯率就是明年到增加到12%之後你們沒有再往上調目前沒有啦因為"},{"start":6820.615,"end":6841.969,"text":"後年到12% 這是依法的部分所以部長你這個整個掌管整個全國勞工的勞動前夜還有公司行要讓他們能夠做下去有的要保護 有的要扶持 有的要補助等等"},{"start":6843.47,"end":6865.195,"text":"所以有時候也不要一昧的去苛責公司行號這邊有時候我覺得你們都太嚴格了啦然後去就不管三七二十一大家看著人然後勞動部的人都要害怕死了大家都要哀鴻騙人現在做構築是很難做的所以你們出去要和藹可親慈眉善目好不好"},{"start":6871.337,"end":6886.544,"text":"輔導為主不要亂搞 哪個亂砍沒有人受得了我們大概就是本於保障勞工的職責然後來做我今天提的那個第63條遺囑年金這一塊這個受撫養這一塊是太嚴格了"},{"start":6891.593,"end":6908.243,"text":"老闆只是紛紛行事而已嘛你這個受扶養就要什麼有陪伴相都要寫得這麼完善然後這個孫女或者是兄弟姐妹就剛好我去準備的我去寫的我都不寫啦所以全部都站不出來嘛所以這點 寶刁我刪掉你有意見嗎"},{"start":6917.428,"end":6937.588,"text":"委員重點重點是在這個條文上面之前那個4至549號的解釋文大法官4至549號解釋文其實有說因為這個這個勞保其實是所得替代的性質它並不是遺產所以因為在這所談"},{"start":6938.749,"end":6957.11,"text":"所得替代的性質之下所以他其實主要的會是針對要有這個撫養的條件這不是我們自己可以想怎麼定或者我今天行政部門想怎麼定因為這還是有一個大法官的視線在那個地方那從行政部門角度我們很難去違逆大法官視線的這個條文"},{"start":6961.003,"end":6983.269,"text":"這個下面要闡述一個盲點不符合條例的人然後父母親也不在了然後後來是由出喪葬會那個人來請領死亡祈福這個也不合法怎麼到最後由這個出後世要搬嘛所以由出那個喪葬會的人去領這個死亡祈福現在是這樣在亂的這夠不合法"},{"start":6987.728,"end":7013.222,"text":"就是說我們的死亡給戶包括遺屬津貼跟傷案津貼傷案津貼是說如果就是五個月如果沒有遺屬或者是遺屬沒有符合條件的人我們提高傷案津貼為十個月這樣子就是五個月變成變十個月如果他只有兄弟姊妹沒有符合我們的條件的話那就會變十個月從五個月會變十個月"},{"start":7016.598,"end":7031.515,"text":"好 那個你再研究一下我們來討論一下 好不好那另外一個就是救護法就是15到17歲這個我們把他也納入救護法特定對象部長你有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":7032.165,"end":7049.881,"text":"根文說明 第一個因為主要是救護法24條的特定對象主要是針對就業弱勢但是因為青年其實青年的抑制性很高其實有很多青年他整體來說他在就業市場上是很有競爭力的"},{"start":7050.922,"end":7070.902,"text":"但也有一些在青年上面的確會是比較就在他的在找工作上會比較弱勢一點所以我們自己是擔心因為24條他其實我們有給很多相對應的就業津貼等等的 聘僱的津貼但如果我是把一整個青年全部都放進去的時候變成是這些所有的青年"},{"start":7071.843,"end":7086.885,"text":"他找工作等等等他都可以來申請我們的這相關的津貼的時候他可能在現有的機會如果現有的求職機會他是一個大一塊大餅的話他可能會對其他的弱勢的比方說身心障礙比方說中高齡"},{"start":7087.526,"end":7109.943,"text":"比方說其他的這個二路就業的婦女他可能會產生一些排擠的效果所以我們自己是認為說青年也許現在大家看到他的失業率好像比平均來說高一些這確實但是主要如果仔細去看的話他主要比較高的原因是因為他並不是因為他客觀條件上面弱勢他比較是他在職官他在職涯的選擇上面還沒有定或者他在"},{"start":7110.703,"end":7128.687,"text":"求學跟就業之間還在猶疑在做選擇比較不是他因為他的身份上面客觀上面有哪些部分比較弱勢所以我自己是覺得說如果要討論的話我覺得我們可以討論但不是那麼適合把整個青年一整一非常完整的青年單獨講15到17歲的青少年你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":7132.931,"end":7151.336,"text":"15到17歲就剛剛其實林月琴委員有講到我們自己的看法是這樣你要把完整的一整個這麼異質的青年全部放進來你就會把很多其實他明明就有很多就業他在就業上面明明是有優勢的人一樣把它放到24條那這就不太符合我們其實在24條當時設計的異質"},{"start":7154.881,"end":7168.043,"text":"所以我們應該是要就業弱勢才把它放進來所以我覺得如果當然委員討論裡面我們可以去比較框定說哪一群人真的在就業上面是比較弱勢的那我們把它範圍給框定清楚"},{"start":7168.767,"end":7187.122,"text":"大家也確定這些人的確在就業商因為他的某些條件他真的會比較辛苦他真的需要政府比較多的幫忙我覺得這部分我們可以來討論可是如果完整的一個青年的概念剛才說15到29歲這個裡面涵蓋的範圍就非常非常廣可能裡面有很多是在市場上面很具競爭力的尋職的對象都在裡面"},{"start":7190.026,"end":7211.837,"text":"好 那最後一個問題就是今年跟去年都是補1200億嘛 中央政府那這個1200億是怎麼算來的是看他的財富剩餘啦還是看他那個行政院長這大概也是主席主席主席大概總體評估我們的財政狀況但是說實話因為這真的是要看財政狀況啦但是"},{"start":7216.719,"end":7242.069,"text":"這邊還是要說是說我們都希望未來可以增加更多可是現在在中央政府的財政狀況在這個財務法的修訂之下它其實的餘裕 裕度就會大幅的降低其實我們對這回有擔憂的要努力爭取啦我們也希望能夠把整個中央政府的財政的裕度跟體質再做得更好才會有更多的餘裕可以來撥補勞保的財務好 謝謝"},{"start":7252.475,"end":7276.751,"text":"宣告待會兒劉建國委員詢答後休息十分鐘現在請王振旭委員詢答謝謝主席有請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":7277.848,"end":7294.199,"text":"部長好 今天針對勞保條例跟救福法的審查主要有針對三個題目來跟部長討論第一個就是有關於勞保財務或穩定撥補的可能裁員剛剛很多委員都有跟部長在討論中"},{"start":7295.2,"end":7310.033,"text":"第二個部分是5人以下的投保單位合理納保的可能方案第三個就是有關於就業服務法要求經常性的薪資4萬元以下在招聘的時候要揭露的修法的可能"},{"start":7310.814,"end":7336.515,"text":"那這個第一個部分就是有關你財務勞保財務可能來源今天其實排審的勞保條例特別是勞保政府最終支付責任入法的部分政府這幾年來其實一直都有公開的做了政治的承諾而且連續多年的撥補了勞保每一年都有一千億所以我們認為勞保財務的關鍵問題還是在於勞保財源或者是"},{"start":7340.598,"end":7347.404,"text":"政府撥補稅收的裁員錢要從哪裡來注入勞保基金才是核心的問題"},{"start":7349.321,"end":7369.889,"text":"那在這個核心的問題最近包括我們這個想想論壇在11月7號也發表一篇有關於聯金系列財務務需開源的這樣的這個不管是針對健保財源或是軍公教連改也做了一些討論那他列舉了有關於如何越獄飲水擴增財源還有這個延長聯金壽命"},{"start":7376.791,"end":7395.325,"text":"這樣的概念之下呢它有包括第一個就是政府要編列預算撥補那這個部分我們已經在執行當中那第二個就是有要希望能不能加增營業稅那為什麼要透過加增營業稅主要是因為我國營業稅相較於國際偏低有增加的空間"},{"start":7396.526,"end":7413.198,"text":"其實另外參考過去不管是菸稅或者是遺產稅可以用於在長照基金類似的概念將來能不能夠透過這個方式來撥補到這邊來第三個就是提高外匯存底收益率跟國庫的上繳率"},{"start":7414.039,"end":7427.734,"text":"當然我們也了解這些都不是勞動部這邊可以單獨來處理可是針對這樣的想法部長有沒有什麼樣的一些到底你的態度是什麼跟我們報告"},{"start":7428.755,"end":7446.381,"text":"其实对于任何能够有助于劳保基金财务的这个说越狱饮水也好或者是能够加大这个水龙头的做法我们当然都愿意持正面的态度来看待"},{"start":7447.341,"end":7468.909,"text":"但的確因為不管是加徵銀索稅或者是儲權基金的設置或者是這個外匯存底相關現在我們看到有些人在講的這個做法確實他都涉及到一些其他單位的權責尤其是財主單位財政部其他單位的權責那當然如果"},{"start":7470.129,"end":7479.968,"text":"这些财主单位那愿意来研议往这方面思考我们当然非常非常乐意那一起来讨论因为我想这些都会对老保财务是有帮助的"},{"start":7480.939,"end":7508.178,"text":"所以最重要就是讓勞工朋友可以安心不管如何政府一定會負最終責任各種裁員我們就努力的來爭取相信部長也會努力的來爭取第二部分就是五人以下的投保單位納保的規範這是在勞保條例的第六條有關於事業單位是否要設立投保單位來幫我們的受僱勞工投保的問題"},{"start":7509.159,"end":7536.277,"text":"那其實這是一個滿有歷史的一個過程我們也知道勞保制度是在1950年就開始開辦那勞保條例呢是在1958年開始立法那後來在20年後就是1979年修法強制設立投保單位的人數從原來的10人降低到5人以上就要能夠需要幫所有的這些勞工朋友要幫他做投保"},{"start":7536.937,"end":7561.03,"text":"那五人以下的事業單位是否能夠自行選擇設立這個投保單位或者是由我們的職業工會來協助來投保這是目前在執行的部分那這樣已經經過46年來都沒有任何的修正那我們也了解說如果是採用這個過程的話我們可以看一下"},{"start":7561.87,"end":7584.76,"text":"在勞工保險條例是70年的悠久歷史所以呢他就設立五人之下的這個投保那如果晚近三十年來不管是全民健康保險法就業保險法勞工退休條例還有那個勞災的保護等等其實都有規定所有雇的勞工都要全部投保"},{"start":7585.666,"end":7608.269,"text":"這個基本上就有人數上的差異那如果從這個社會保險制度的一致性公平性跟合理性來說的話我們可能真的要麻煩大家共同來思考是不是還要維持這個5人以下的事業投保單位來投保這樣的這個可能的這種改變那為什麼需要有這樣的改變我們可以從下面的資料看到"},{"start":7608.809,"end":7630.382,"text":"如果是事業單位幫受僱勞工投保的話僱主要負擔70%勞工負擔20%那政府負擔10%那如果透過職業工會的話呢他就有不同的這個方式而且政府負擔的部分他要給職業工會做相對的補助所以如果是5人以下看起來"},{"start":7631.723,"end":7646.831,"text":"組織會工會對於這個失業單位可能會有某一些處理的模式的選擇那對政府負擔來講其實是增加了政府的負擔這個部分我們是很希望能夠有機會共同來討論或許衝擊會是大的"},{"start":7649.432,"end":7674.814,"text":"可是如果能夠透過討論的話我們希望能夠做一些相關的改變那到底目前有多少多少5人以下是在失業投保單位在投保我們根據這個今年7月份的資料可以看得出來有77萬人他是有透過失業單位在投保的那整體到底是多少的百分比這個部分不知道部長有沒有概念相關的數字我請"},{"start":7677.633,"end":7699.752,"text":"跟委員報告就是擴大事人以下單位要強制在勞保這個加保的這個部分當然是我們希望所有的勞動者都可以參加勞保或者是宅保所以我們在111年的5月1號開始我們受雇已登記一個人以上的雇主的勞工就全部強制納保"},{"start":7700.165,"end":7716.673,"text":"我們才會從勞保裡面把這個就是災保這些人把它拉出來單獨立法讓所有受僱的勞工都能夠受到工作上的保障這是第一點但是對於強制參加勞保的這一塊因為勞保的費率也是比較高"},{"start":7717.473,"end":7731.364,"text":"那我們經過多次的邀請勞資團體的意見溝通那與會的代表大概都還是認為這樣會大幅的增加我們雇主的成本那也可能會轉嫁到勞工的負擔會影響勞工的權益"},{"start":7733.567,"end":7759.853,"text":"那另外當然對公會的運作也會造成一定的影響那小型的單位他的人力物力也會不足那影響的層面包括企業包括公會或勞資團體都有餘力所以目前還沒有達到修法的公式 是了解所以我們才希望說有沒有機會再請到中部研議修正如果在勞保條例第六條修正以投保為原則的可能性如果"},{"start":7760.533,"end":7779.086,"text":"很難執行的話是不是能夠用一些增加限制納保的要件來做相當的規範那也希望能夠定期公開五人以下投保單位人數的占比統計可不可以麻煩這個部長這邊可以針對這個需求來提供書面意見給委員會參考兩個月"},{"start":7782.228,"end":7809.731,"text":"好我們來把相關的我想我們把相關的一些評估那也讓委員這邊可以知道那之所以現在制度是這樣幾個考慮點在哪裡好謝謝那最後一個部分簡短的請教一下部長有關救護法修法跟薪資透明政策的部分那今天其實有一個重點就是希望讓這個青年可以納入到這個相關的範圍裡面那我們也了解其實年輕勞工"},{"start":7811.109,"end":7835.177,"text":"救福就業的因素其實是蠻多元的尤其是整體就業環境是促進青年就業的重中之重可是裡面的薪資透明化的政策也是非常重要的依據根據救福法第五條目前是針對薪資四萬以下的介入的規定必須要在提供職缺的時候如果沒有公開揭示的話這是必須要受到規範"},{"start":7836.938,"end":7854.295,"text":"我們也可以看到下面一個數據4萬元好像是不少可是那是2018年制定的2018年的時候基本工資是2萬2千元那這幾年來其實勞動部很努力的希望讓最低工資提升已經從原來的2018的2萬2千元變成了"},{"start":7858.399,"end":7875.652,"text":"2025年28590到明年甚至會到29500所以包括新的平均薪資是5萬中位是4萬那如果我們還是用4萬元來處理的話相對似乎是在這個調整上必須要重新來思考"},{"start":7876.172,"end":7903.785,"text":"那這一部分如果我們不要是定額而是用一個比例比如說如果將來改成最低工資的1.5倍或是什麼調整的機制那能不能夠讓這個目前所制定的4萬元這樣的方式可以做有效的調整不知道部長的意見是現在跟委員說沒有其實在去年的經發會就行政院的經發會其實這個行政院也有指示我們要來研議那把這個"},{"start":7905.906,"end":7929.533,"text":"行之透明的這個門檻那再往上那去年當然有講到是五萬那當然現在我們也不排斥那因為很多委員其實也都提醒因為最低工資單逐年調漲那說不定到一定年份以後其實又有點接近五萬那所以這個是不是有可能他反而是一個最低工資的某些N倍N的一個倍數"},{"start":7930.493,"end":7955.182,"text":"然後來作為一個調整這個薪資透明化門檻的機制我想我們也願意來我們也正在研議這個做法大家也在想說哪一個倍數會比較適合的確就國際上面來說的話薪資透明化的確是一些國家能夠來去透過資訊公開的方式來促使薪資往上拉或者讓雇主不敢開那個"},{"start":7958.227,"end":7982.186,"text":"很不想要讓外界知道的低薪的狀況這是一個很明確的做法所以我們也很希望這個研議能夠趕快來推出好 那會不會麻煩把這個研議報告一個月提供給委員會跟辦公室來參考是 好 謝謝OK 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝汪委員 謝謝部長來 接著我們請廖偉祥委員質詢"},{"start":7992.948,"end":8018.655,"text":"謝謝主席 請洪部長部長日前在新北有個流性女子跟其六個月大的孩子她慘遭了丈夫殺害然後丈夫再自殺造成一家三口滅門的悲劇讓我們社會非常震驚"},{"start":8019.895,"end":8044.009,"text":"但是其實這則的家庭悲劇本來是有可能有機會可以避免的為什麼這麼說呢因為流性女子在當媽媽後他說雖然遭受到之前等不利對待但仍在他的社群媒體寫下諸如抱病懷孕生產顧娃我不能死或是沒媽的孩子最可憐等等"},{"start":8045.029,"end":8057,"text":"所以可見這個流性女子雖然身處人生的低谷但是她還是有這個母性的光輝但很可惜最終還是敵不過職場上的一些惡意所以我們也可以看到"},{"start":8058.171,"end":8077.389,"text":"流行女子她同時也抱怨懷孕時被雇主以不適任為由資遣求職時仍遭嫌棄說像看到鬼或者苦嘆說政府說骨欲生欲結果孕婦處處碰壁她遲遲沒有辦法找到工作導致經濟上的壓力最終也造成了這個悲劇"},{"start":8078.939,"end":8091.837,"text":"那根據勞動部的違反勞動法令的事業單位查詢系統近年涉及懷孕歧視拒絕家庭照顧假或者育嬰留職停薪不當處分這個違法的案件遍佈全台"},{"start":8093.102,"end":8116.102,"text":"但是從法律事務所 科技製造業到醫療院所有這樣的裁罰記錄所以顯示孕期跟育兒友善環境仍然很不足甚至有一些醫院的案例裡面也只罰了兩萬塊 根本不痛不癢所以導致了這起的悲劇發生 一家三口直接被丈夫"},{"start":8117.993,"end":8136.299,"text":"這個殺害之後再自殺所以我就想要請問部長我們到底要怎麼樣讓雇主在到這個在孕婦跟懷孕員工的看到他們的時候是可以看到寶不是看到鬼可以營造更好更友善的職場環境根本說明這當然不是看到鬼"},{"start":8137.435,"end":8151.507,"text":"當然不是我說他的這是他講的講講話的方式我說怎麼讓他們看到寶不是看到鬼你要怎麼樣可以真正的去改善這個環境不要再讓這樣子的社會憾事發生第一個其實"},{"start":8152.928,"end":8176.835,"text":"我們有注意到這個案件那這個案件當然發生在新北市所以第一但第一線會是地方政府要去做相關的查查但我們的確也現在也格外重視在職場上面不管是懷孕或者是育兒的勞工相關的權益這也是為什麼我們在提出一個這個我知道你重視我們常常也討論的蠻多的啊我是說根據這個事件啊"},{"start":8177.435,"end":8206.782,"text":"就看起來他就是還是沒有改善嘛就是說他還是有很大的改善空間我剛剛也講到甚至很多財閥他可能也很少不痛不癢那除了財閥當然我們不希望說只是財閥而已究竟到底部長到底你們有沒有精進檢討到底要怎麼做才不要再讓這樣子的憾事發生第一個我認為該財閥就必須落實財閥是那甚至是財閥的金額我們也願意來跟地方政府討論這是不是可以其實有一個怎麼樣的空間盡量大家去遏止這件事情"},{"start":8207.52,"end":8232.935,"text":"第二個這裡面的確涉及到一些職場上面的文化的問題所以我們目前有規劃接下來會有一個計劃來加強宣導另外我們也會希望能夠做一樣的計劃對懷孕歧視的計劃那包括我們也會來跟相關的法律輔助的單位來討論因為在這裡面其實比較大的問題是有蠻多遇到懷孕歧視員工對他來說他遇到了可是他"},{"start":8234.056,"end":8254.681,"text":"不敢申訴不敢舉手或者是相對應可以保護他的資源不夠多所以我們其實現在也在規劃要跟相關的法律輔助的團體來這個法服來去合作那怎麼樣子可以給更多遇到懷孕歧視的勞工更多的支持最後一點我要說我們也有計劃"},{"start":8256.181,"end":8282.985,"text":"接下来针对像这样怀孕歧视的问题如果被裁罚违法的事业单位我们会有个专案的揭露跟专案的公布你们会打算往专案揭露跟专案公布我们也希望让外界知道这样子一个企业很多企业它的形象看起来不错但是居然还有怀孕歧视的状况那我们也希望让外界知道哪些企业会有这个状况这也是我们希望能够"},{"start":8283.826,"end":8307.657,"text":"提出來的做法 謝謝部長你有這個正面回應那也可以把你剛剛相關的你們打算做的經濟作為具體的作為給本席辦公室兩個禮拜可以嗎我們會在應該是11月底對不對我們會在11月底其實會把我們這相對應的計畫給提出來好就是兩個禮拜好謝謝接下來我要問一下青年失業率的問題這個圖中我們可以看到"},{"start":8309.11,"end":8316.945,"text":"接下來下一頁 對圖中我們可以看到歷屆的歷年的這個青年失業率全體和各個年齡層的曲線都是平的"},{"start":8317.489,"end":8338.263,"text":"那就是過去和現在實施的這個投資青年就業方案那第二期是112年到115年那初次尋職的青年穩定就業計畫等我是覺得成效在哪裡我們看不到尤其是在第一期跟第二期的投資青年就業方案都有推動提供符合產業趨勢及就業市場的訓練課程措施"},{"start":8342.446,"end":8352.953,"text":"那麼其中針對這個失業跟待業的青年執行職前訓練計畫還有一個叫做青年就業旗艦計畫那這兩項職前的訓練課程結果110年到112年的職前訓練的計畫訓後三個月的全職就業比率僅五成"},{"start":8363.16,"end":8376.027,"text":"左右而已喔那落後青年就業旗艦計劃所謂逾九成的訓後全職就業比率那也就是說這個政府投資下去課程開了青年上完課了卻只有五成進入職場"},{"start":8377.799,"end":8400.132,"text":"所以請問部長這個部分是發生了什麼狀況要怎麼樣重新檢討跟文說明其實台灣的青年的失業率並沒有比OECD其他國家來的高其實我們大概都比我們針對這個計畫的成效來講第二個剛剛在那張圖上其實可以看出其實我們青年的失業率其實也這幾年一路的下降"},{"start":8401.688,"end":8419.125,"text":"在各國其實都會有類似的狀況就是青年的失業率比總體的失業率來的高但是在25歲以後失業率就會快速的下降我覺得會必須要去探究青年失業率相對比較高的原因大概有幾個第一個是其實很多的年輕人他其實還在一個尋職的"},{"start":8422.208,"end":8436.614,"text":"不確定的階段也包括他也在考慮他是要繼續工作他要進入職場還是要繼續就學那他也包括對自己在職場裡面的這個哪一個職涯選擇的 部長我們先針對我剛提出的這個問題你剛講是一個很大範圍的一個狀態我剛講是說這個計劃本身的成效他只有五成好所以"},{"start":8446.099,"end":8464.917,"text":"針對青年失業率這個問題其實自勞發署執訓中心到現在勞動力發展署各署成立青年職涯發展中心簡稱青職中心其實都一直是來協助這個青年規劃職涯的核心單位但是根據監察院的調查報告也發現有許多的問題首先"},{"start":8465.618,"end":8494.14,"text":"你們勞發署自107年設定這個輕職中心八大核心服務項目以來部分的項目目標值設定過於寬鬆導致達成率屢屢嚴重超標甚至有達成率破千的驚人成績所以我要講的事情是講白了這樣子的績效設定是不是流於形式這也導致無法有效評估輕職中心對於提升青年就業率或者是就業率至"},{"start":8495.582,"end":8509.058,"text":"職場續航力的實質表現換句話說就是這些設定的標準是治本設定這樣子的虛假KPI這個是監察院的調查報告不是我講的這個部分怎麼樣是不是可以檢討怎麼樣"},{"start":8510.56,"end":8529.939,"text":"把這個所謂產出型指標調整成為這個實質成效的成果型的指標以具體的來評估輕職中心在提升青年就業跟就業安置還有職場穩定上面的功能和效益跟文說明如果按照文前一張投影片那個50%的那個投影片"},{"start":8530.799,"end":8552.106,"text":"因為這個職前訓練計畫跟就業期間計畫其實它還是有不太一樣的定位跟屬性所以有點難直接拿數字來去做比較比方說職前訓練可能也會有一些他受訓完以後他可能就又會去念書好 部長我再跟你說那就是同樣的一個調查報告也指出輕職中心服務對象跟資源重疊的問題"},{"start":8553.166,"end":8579.87,"text":"所以輕職中心的服務對象廣泛的列入15到29歲各級學校的學生跟畢業的青年那其中一對於職癌的這個諮詢的對象也在學青年的比率偏高那業務內容跟大專業校的學生輔導中心高度重疊另外青年失業率最該重視的四個部分分別是長期待業者居家的這個減居族"},{"start":8580.65,"end":8604.627,"text":"或者是就是常常還有或者就是說這個卻志族啊有時候常常說有意願跟有能力工作卻因為種種因素失去工作動力者及就這個依就業服務法納為就業促進對象的青少年等不利就業不利族群喔所以就剛剛講到了你說有很多可能有分別可是這裡也講到他有資源重疊的問題喔"},{"start":8605.848,"end":8619.812,"text":"那所以勞動部似乎是要重新界定這個輕職中心的優先服務對象而非與在學青年高度重複做無用功的這個部分跟文說明其實這分幾個層次來說明"},{"start":8622.233,"end":8638.359,"text":"第一個其實很多同學跟我們說其實學校裡面提供的一些職涯的資訊他們其實往往覺得不夠所以這也是為什麼我們其實需要進到學校裡面來提供大家求職的資源包括職涯的諮詢的原因這是第一個因為很多同學跟我們說其實學校提供的是不夠的"},{"start":8638.999,"end":8661.271,"text":"所以你認為監察院的這個所謂的資源重置的報告是不對的不是這個意思所以我們認為把一個把這個關注的點放在在學的青年我認為這件事沒有錯但是我認為我們的確可以來檢討讓這些比方說長期的待業者或者是減居族或者是這些就業不利的青少年他們所受到的資源我認為可以再更多"},{"start":8662.031,"end":8683.791,"text":"可以再把关注的点再更放在他们身上这就是我刚刚咨询的点没有错就是你应该要把重点抓出来而不是资源一直重置但是在学青年也是我们很重要的关注对象我认为这件事情是没有错的在我们的YS里面这个事情不一定有错但我们可以把其他的部分尤其更弱势的青年再增加再更优先一些这事情是我们可以来检讨可以做的"},{"start":8683.831,"end":8700.106,"text":"是 最後還有一個這個有關於青年就業的部分還有一個問題 輕職中心在一對一的職涯諮詢人員也存在人力流動率過高平均年資淺或者部分中心甚至平均只有一年多然後薪資偏低而且缺乏經驗傳承的問題"},{"start":8701.647,"end":8726.506,"text":"那當然就是各分屬材每年招標委辦一次的方式它也有可能不利於這個確保諮詢服務品質所以這個部分你們要怎麼精進因為比如說比較好的人才要怎麼留任其實他的經驗傳承的方案到底是什麼這個部分你們要怎麼去把它完善這樣子的品質是 跟委員報告基本上我們在每年的標案裡面我們都會有要求"},{"start":8727.687,"end":8746.973,"text":"受委任的廠商他必須要提供的專業人員包括學經歷以及他的工作經歷所以我們在標案裡面每年都有做這樣的要求那如果是優質的人員當然我們會希望承接的廠商可以繼續沿用那這個我們在機制裡面是都有的所以你覺得現在已經是很完善了"},{"start":8747.421,"end":8768.633,"text":"我不敢說完善但是我們在標案裡面確實有這樣的意思因為我們也擔心因為它是用委外的方式處理有可能因為換了廠商導致人員離開是啊 所以我現在想要提醒你們這件事情因為現在看起來是有這樣的問題你要輔導人家就業結果沒有經驗的傳承那你這些東西應該是要再去檢討是不是可以再給本席辦公室兩個禮拜相關的檢討報告好不好"},{"start":8769.614,"end":8792.526,"text":"好那最後我們可以提供最後部長我還是要問一下其實今天還有很多人問到有關於這個全國一孩家庭有多少戶啦這個家事移工的這個部分啊我是想要補充問一下我想請問一下賴總統說出這個政策的時候有先跟你們討論嗎他有做過相關的數據的調研然後才講出這個政策嗎還是一時興起"},{"start":8793.867,"end":8804.716,"text":"我想總統講什麼不會是一時興起不會是一時興起當然不會是一時興起那可是剛剛他們問很多相關的調查的數據你們都沒有那怎麼去說要做這件事我們都在評估中"},{"start":8805.663,"end":8825.544,"text":"你評估中但是他們剛剛好多個委員問譬如說現在全國一海家庭到底有多少戶那你們這邊是回答不出來戶政資料大概就可以看得到吧可是並不是當然我想要表達是有部分的家庭他有表達他有很明確這個需求但也不是所有的家庭都表達有這個需求"},{"start":8826.804,"end":8850.513,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們其實目前就是在相關的數據我們都在評估之中部長這關鍵的意思就是說賴總統在講出來這個之前有沒有跟你們討論過有那你們有提供相關的數據嗎那為何不然怎麼會賴總統講出這個話我們有提供相關的資訊當然就在我們討論過程裡面我想所以部長這代表說他有跟你們討論過那你們也認同賴總統的政策囉我們現在就是在評估中"},{"start":8851.249,"end":8866.585,"text":"對但是你是評估中嘛正常的政策發表尤其是總統講出來的話他不是應該是跟你們討論好很確定你們的專業評估完數據都出來之後他才會說好我們現在要做這件事總統也是把這個想法請我們評估所以"},{"start":8867.185,"end":8887.336,"text":"所以總統是話講太快還沒評估完成就先講出來嗎總統不是話講太快你看總統也是請行政部門做這個評估包括行政院我跟他宣布說要做這件事情是兩件事喔總統講出來這句話的這個概念真的跟你們所謂的評估不同所以我要本席要表達所以總統其實也是請我們評估啊"},{"start":8887.955,"end":8899.59,"text":"所以本席想要表達的意思就是說那這個還沒講出來之前你們有沒有先具體的評估完才跟總統講這件事好那這件事情你是說他有跟你溝通了我們針對相關的政策概念當然有討論好那我想要請問那你們現在"},{"start":8903.334,"end":8923.345,"text":"大概評估的方向有哪些呢因為剛剛部長有提到有人說這個家庭幫傭社福義工家庭幫傭多少人全國一孩家庭有多少戶或者是說你剛剛有討論到有人說遲緩家庭遲緩兒家庭先優先或是要多元家庭評估又或者是你們要從點數上面去做調整這個部分有沒有大概的方向"},{"start":8924.165,"end":8944.516,"text":"我們還是在幾個原則上面去做相關的評估思考那第一個事情當然是當然我們也在意這個本國勞工的就業的相關的權利那第二個呢其實行政院也請我們要考慮比方說多元家庭的需求不同家庭不同的需求第三個是當然希望能夠具體的減輕"},{"start":8947.457,"end":8965.945,"text":"這個家庭照顧的負擔者他的實際的負擔那大家也會在意是不是有一些在照顧品質上面也必須要留意這幾個方向我們都希望能夠考慮進來目前是這四個方向這幾個我們都考慮這幾個也是行政院請我們要評估的一些思考點"},{"start":8967.185,"end":8981.951,"text":"好我還是跟部長說這個相關的評估要這個很務實的去做完評估之後再推出這個政策才不會導致好像很多政策丟出來像是試水溫一樣這不利於執政團隊讓人民的信賴好謝謝部長好謝謝好"},{"start":8999.224,"end":9012.771,"text":"請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席有請黃部長有請黃部長國庫署羅祖密主計總處黃專委"},{"start":9017.695,"end":9031.341,"text":"來 部長早部長 勞保這顆炸彈原本從可能是2026、2028要爆炸對不對然後在精算之後目前預估是在2031年會炸了所以大家應該還有一點喘息的時間"},{"start":9037.33,"end":9060.05,"text":"我這麼說你應該能夠理解我要表達意思是 但是2031這數字因為它其實還是有很多前提的條件2031的那時候是今年上半年的精算的報告那它的前提是我們在一個不一定很不是很高的這個投資的收益率然後還有往後都今年以後都不撥補的情況下才是2031年"},{"start":9061.371,"end":9084.434,"text":"不是很高的收益率然後沒有確定穩定的這個撥補有可能嘛對不對就是這兩個因素他是設定今年以後都沒有撥補才是2031反正就是今年以後有這兩個狀況可能就會提早到2031年嘛應該是這麼說嘛這兩個因素如果發生了就可能2031年就要倒了啦"},{"start":9084.754,"end":9111.016,"text":"按照精算 精算報告是這樣寫當然我們不能讓它發生所以我們才持續的在撥補也希望把收益率提高對 所以我才要跟你討論就這兩項問題來討論就這兩個層面問題第一個 我還是用這樣來表達就好像一個絕症的病人你一直用持續這種無效的醫療去救治他坦白說 到最終只是苟延殘喘可能多半年 多一年"},{"start":9112.177,"end":9139.498,"text":"諸如此類就像你那種那你剛講的那兩個因素如果不見了就是這兩種這兩種特效藥如果其中有一項不見了那當然可能就提早結束他的生命我用在隱喻然後然後但如果病人要活著的時候醫師要想把他救治基本上我們是我們是立法院是自作為治理國家政策的一個單位那我們這個單位當然我們要自行我們要自行來看到"},{"start":9140.429,"end":9164.285,"text":"看待到底這個勞保這個部分這基金應該怎麼去做一個因應跟改善改變的一個方式然後提出這樣的一個建言也給勞動部來做參考我最後要講的就是說政府撥補幫勞保基金來續命前提不會有人反對啦政府負最終的責任"},{"start":9165.474,"end":9189.673,"text":"大家都會舉雙腳贊成對不對但是如果每年都要這麼補到底是要補多久然後如果是常態性的這樣補那當時設立這個勞保基金的目的跟現在的這種處理的方式那顯然不是已經都已經變樣了"},{"start":9192.136,"end":9204.688,"text":"走鐘了然後我才要跟部長來就教這幾個問題第一個我們現在看這個勞保基金的規模大致上是一兆"},{"start":9205.799,"end":9228.948,"text":"一兆一千多億嘛一兆二下半年突破一兆二你是怎樣怎麼不會動你是聽到要再快倒了所以你很緊張是不是然後這個勞保請求債務是13兆多嘛對不對沒有錯嘛目前所以就將近10倍"},{"start":9232.1,"end":9242.374,"text":"將近10倍出了那救治的軍工教育人員的退休金是3兆然後這個工人員的退休補習金是差不多在2兆左右嘛主席總書這個應該沒有問題嘛對不對這數據正確嗎"},{"start":9247.281,"end":9259.574,"text":"這數據正確吧OK 好 謝謝我為什麼要用這來比喻因為這也是根據組織總署截至6月底的統計指出台灣中央及地方政府潛藏負債總計來到20.5兆"},{"start":9262.597,"end":9282.014,"text":"我如果有數字上的一些操縛你要提醒好不好然後這是潛在的債務而且台灣目前的國債也高達6兆多然後但台灣一年的整個這個付稅才收入也才3兆多我是用這樣的一個財務條件來看待這個事情如果"},{"start":9283.137,"end":9298.263,"text":"我們一般的家庭要知道我這樣的狀況就必須要尊潔支出然後請到省值花但是如果有多餘的進帳就要趕緊來補這個缺口沒有錯嘛所以你應該都可以認同我的講法嘛沒有問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":9299.643,"end":9319.907,"text":"所以在112年全國共同努力下台灣度過三年的疫情邁入後疫情時代台灣整體的經濟發展在疫情時對比其他國家仍屬於前段班然後蔡政府當時有提出疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算案3800億還普發了6000元這個大家應該記憶猶新嘛而且也特別編列300億"},{"start":9328.202,"end":9353.957,"text":"補勞工保險基金沒有錯啦 好 對今年換了新政府我們因應國際情勢強化這個經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算高達5450億也普花1萬元給民眾結果不僅台電沒有辦法接受撥補聯勞保基金在這次特別預算也僅撥補100億"},{"start":9357.182,"end":9362.645,"text":"沒有錯嘛 今年對 上次預扣的特別預算3800億撥補勞保300億 佔當時的預算是7.9%這一次5400多億是這個3800億的1.43倍 結果只撥補100億佔比僅1.83%"},{"start":9383.942,"end":9396.151,"text":"部長什麼原因你沒有積極爭取你不重視各位你說不是因為第一個當然因為這明年的明年的公務預算裡面我們已經爭取1200的這個"},{"start":9400.454,"end":9420.672,"text":"1200億的撥補的金額所以其實這跟當時在那個112年或者是111年當時的狀況其實也會有不同所以整體來說其實我們現在撥補的金額並沒有比較少那當然這是再加上這個這一次特別預算裡面的100億"},{"start":9422.956,"end":9440.499,"text":"我都用特別預算來跟你講嘛對不對我用特別預算來對照嘛一千兩百一千不談我就用特別預算來對照嘛他三千八百億的時候可以撥補到三百億五千多的時候只有撥補到一百億那基本上就是減少嘛所以你講的兩個因素就會擔心嘛"},{"start":9441.974,"end":9471.483,"text":"對不對 一千兩百一千不談嘛就只用特別預算來對照我們會盡量再來跟主總爭論所以我知道很多不是不是部長的因素啦但是我還是提醒部長可能要更積極來做相關的因應也可能要跟行政會講說過去有這樣的數字有這樣的撥補那現在這個特別預算的規模更大高達之前的特別預算是1.43倍怎麼可能反而在這個撥補的金額去縮小了"},{"start":9473.458,"end":9501.177,"text":"所以這部分提醒部長那我再給部長看兩件事情看一個訊息這是兩位教授講的那第一個是陳教授改革要多管齊下除了政府撥補投資效益基金投資效益讓基金維持一定在水位下政委可以舉在仿效挪威的成立主權基金把這個收益專管專用及強化社會保障另外一個是郝教授長期而言勞保還是要啟動年金改革初期對薪金流量影響不大所以應在年改前啟動儲備基金"},{"start":9503.098,"end":9516.617,"text":"一個是主權基金 一個是儲備基金那儲備基金過去立法院在第十屆的時候立法院有很多同仁也都有做這樣的建議甚至於是說裁員的超徵稅收並要明定超徵的八成都要作為該儲備基金的來源"},{"start":9520.252,"end":9535.747,"text":"但是這個之後就沒有進度了我不曉得主席總署跟國庫署怎麼看待這件事情如果你們要回應都可以然後再來對比勞動部這次特別預算中只爭取到100億我是覺得這個是真的大家要來檢討"},{"start":9538.263,"end":9560.01,"text":"這個大家要檢討因為時間的問題那第二個不只是儲備基金我們賴總統在今年520的就職週年也宣布將成立主權基金打造國家級的投資平台這兩個社會關注的問題一個是勞動部的勞工保險基金勞工的退休基金會不會是主權基金的組成之一"},{"start":9561.618,"end":9578.936,"text":"因為現在大家都說這兩大勞動基金有主權基金之實沒有主權基金之明你們怎麼回應第一個 那這個勞動基金目前在主權基金的這個組成的討論裡面我請我們這個運用局來跟委員說明請說明"},{"start":9581.312,"end":9600.709,"text":"我們勞動基金的性質主要是來自於勞工大眾所以我們對於主權基金我們不會直接用勞動基金去直接的投資參與我們性質上比較不適合這兩個基金不會成為主權基金的組成之一啦你要回答我是這樣嘛對不對好那就明確囉"},{"start":9602.162,"end":9622.421,"text":"不會有變動喔在目前的討論裡面是這樣在目前討論嘛往後的討論會不會變動我們就是很清楚的表明其實目前勞動基金是我要跟部長討論這個事情是這樣嘛他如果未來不是主權基金之一那最好那如果未來是你們要怎麼因應"},{"start":9624.434,"end":9650.99,"text":"我們沒有 目前沒有收到你們有相關的這樣的一個評估嗎目前沒有收到要把勞動基金放到主權基金裡面好 最好就是沒有嘛如果有你們要怎麼處理嘛好 如果沒有的話如果沒有的話那未來的主權基金成立之後有沒有機會也可以挹注到勞保基金上我們不去做它的組成之一但是如果成立主權基金那勞保基金是不是未來有性了可以由主權基金這邊來做相關的一些"},{"start":9653.934,"end":9665.371,"text":"這當然是我們現在在北歐的這個組成基金模式裡面有看到這個狀況有看到這個做法那任何有助於勞保的裁員我們都會使正面的態度來看待"},{"start":9667.69,"end":9692.78,"text":"會持怎樣 我們都持正面的態度 希望能夠演繹啊我如果單純只有持正面態度來看待我們也希望能夠 能夠多出去爭取各種可能性 天上不會掉下一個禮物給你 不可能嘛 對不對我們會持正面態度來爭取所以是不是要相關的一些評估跟盤點然後是不是也要有所規劃包含儲備基金 包含未來的主權基金"},{"start":9694.465,"end":9710.476,"text":"你們是不是有一些相關的一些因應跟評估的這樣的一個作為我想我們會來做因為財源的事情非常非常的慎重然後而且也非常重要所以我們當然任何可能有關可以成為挹注勞保基金的財源我們都願意來做評估"},{"start":9712.124,"end":9731.611,"text":"所以我們可能就是要適好做組準備嘛應該是這個樣子嘛可能我們自己的版本要很多種當行政院當中的這邊在準備主權基金的過程裡面我們現在在委員會已經答覆了喔不可能稱為這兩個基金不可能稱為主權基金的這個成分之一喔"},{"start":9732.051,"end":9760.764,"text":"我們其實在之前在委員會上面有表達這個性質上真的不太一樣當然是不太一樣不過有時候有些事情的變動也不是部長可以現在這樣答覆我然後到時候的這個怎麼講反正因應整個世界的這種輪動很多事情的變動速度是很快的好不好然後儲備基金有沒有要儘快來納入評估"},{"start":9762.759,"end":9785.552,"text":"我覺得現在只要各方有在談到的各種經過我們都願意來評估但不過這確實也需要全職單位一起來這個研議啦對所以所以是我要成立這個儲備基金未來如何應驗主權基金的相關的未來的分配是不是有個可行性的評估可以來給委員做參考我們可以來評估一下那來跟委員這邊來說明兩週內"},{"start":9789.732,"end":9801.019,"text":"一個月兩個月可以嗎兩個月會期這本市會期結束前可以嗎可以好謝謝那最後最後部長有掌握到這個新聞嗎請他請回主席跟那個副會長請回 不好意思 都沒問到哪一個新聞先靠那裡"},{"start":9816.226,"end":9820.091,"text":"蛤 你是很擔心勞保倒了是不是不然你今天怎麼怪怪的"},{"start":9824.54,"end":9850.012,"text":"有個新聞到台南的職安處去申訴整個身份資料竟被直接寄到公司那是相關的三人患堵職罪這起案件是勞動部轄下的職安處承辦員在發送公文的時候直接把當事人的名字全部露出直接讓該保密的案件攤在陽光下這個大家都知道就這案"},{"start":9851.112,"end":9858.624,"text":"部長知道嗎 有掌握嗎 有知道 這是個案嗎這個案子應該是在台南的食安處他的發文發錯了"},{"start":9862.407,"end":9887.332,"text":"我請署長說 部長你要用方案發錯了跟委員報告這個案子的話因為目前台南市是部分授權有一些事業單位轄區還是在治安署的南區中心那這個申訴案呢應該是發文給我們本署的南區中心結果在正本呢誤植給原申訴公司所以是誤植剛剛我們有了解那個案子是誤植"},{"start":9888.83,"end":9903.619,"text":"一個物質可以把證人相關的這些投訴人相關的名字當事人都把他露出來因為物質所以這非常不適當這確實非常不適當部長剛才打呼我這樣署長又打呼我這樣那這個事情顯然大家會沒完沒了"},{"start":9905.523,"end":9924.536,"text":"我們剛修的職安法還有霸凌的專章還有要如何保護當事人然後我們現今的法律勞動良法這個報導裡面特別提到最後最後一段有勞動良法都有所規範然後上面的報導裡面是講這個公益接避責7月上路沒有規範到這個這個這個事部門"},{"start":9927.455,"end":9951.753,"text":"滴滴答答講的一大堆 重重之重就是我們是有相關的規範 法律的規範在保護當事人 保護投訴人 保護這個員工怎麼這個事情還會發生到這種程度 上個禮拜還修了職安法所以這個錯誤是不能被接受的對 這個 我沒有要求你再去對這些人做什麼樣的處置啦但是這絕對不是個案"},{"start":9953.617,"end":9970.133,"text":"這絕對不是個案啦我想我們會來加強對檢察員的訓練我覺得這件事情對我而言在未完這麼久我覺得它是一個非常離譜而且非常嚴重的事情這等體的教育訓練是出了什麼問題是 我們會來加強訓練這個可能不只教育訓練出問題"},{"start":9970.974,"end":9989.363,"text":"而且亦有民事故患的這樣的一個嫌疑但最終我尊重司法的這樣的一個判定所以我不是說你要特別去做怎麼處理但是我說它不是個案我們還有一個中心也是這樣有證人的訊息還被外洩被當事人知道並提告的狀況發生現在在訴訟中"},{"start":9993.736,"end":10015.086,"text":"勞動部 洪部長 你的主政之下這些事情你可能要特別小心是 當然對 因為前的部長是因為什麼事件下來這是沒有辦法被接受的現在如果不是主體是這些霸凌的事情反而是相關的當事人 投訴人經常有這種狀況持續的發生這代表勞動部上上下下整體這樣的一個機制 系統"},{"start":10019.188,"end":10035.356,"text":"甚至於文化 我都覺得必須要洪部長要大刀闊斧慎重的來面對加以的來管制處理不然這種事情絕對會層出不窮是好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉昭偉那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":10678.38,"end":10681.764,"text":"好繼續開會接下來請林淑芬委員發言好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":10699.461,"end":10712.866,"text":"部長 超高齡社會的來臨少子化勞動力不足也是一個問題但是勞動力高齡化危機也是不容忽視"},{"start":10713.746,"end":10732.895,"text":"但是我們要問的就是說政府和企業準備好了嗎辛炳榮教授他有提出來他說上一次我們勞基法修法強制退休的規定修法只做了半套因為我們允許勞僱雙方協商可以再延後他們其實認為說其實政府應該增加幾個"},{"start":10738.118,"end":10767.262,"text":"鼓勵的機制 留任的機制那協助企業不要只用年齡作為退休與否的這個判斷基礎那強制退休的規定還會造成老人貧窮因為高齡者被強制退休以後你知道的再度就業事實上找到了工作跟收入都會低很低在這種狀況裡面他們提到第一個就是說不應該因為年齡設限而應該要訂出留任"},{"start":10767.702,"end":10793.184,"text":"留任65歲以後因為我們的修法是雙方要協議那雙方如果沒有協議的話還是要被強制退休其實我們應該要教企業如何評估讓65歲的員工留下而且也需要有檢測的機制專門定期的關心高齡者的工作狀態另外高齡者退休以後的收入如果不足以負擔他的生活費的話"},{"start":10794.425,"end":10822.35,"text":"應該要規範想想想繼續留下來工作卻被強迫退休者的問題這個問題其實知識體大另外有人說其實應該參考這個南韓或者是說其他的國家我們要政府要定一個鼓勵的政策這個鼓勵的政策要鼓勵企業僱用一定比例的中高齡的勞工"},{"start":10823.05,"end":10841.778,"text":"那他雇佣到一定比例以後 我們給他獎勵而不是現在說63、64歲到了 借齡要退了才給獎勵這樣子可能會鼓勵這樣的企業 可能這樣政策方向或許可以是我們下一次的這個政策檢討的時候要討論比較好的 比較務實的 你覺得呢"},{"start":10846.843,"end":10873.093,"text":"跟委員報告的確其實現在很多企業都在講這個缺工那我們在幾乎每一次的跟企業的座談裡面也都跟他們提及其實恐怕未來中高齡的勞工占我們的整體人力的重要性只會越來越提高我自己感覺其實也越來越多的企業其實接受這個看法的確我覺得接受這個看法而且願意在中高齡勞工上面"},{"start":10873.633,"end":10895.833,"text":"去多做投入跟嘗試的企業我覺得越來越多但是我覺得政府要拿出政策手段來因為這個OECD在2023年的時候指出人工智慧的導入在性別年齡和薪資上都有具體的影響效應特別是性別上面是女性是較顯著年齡上面就中高齡所受到的衝擊是影響最嚴重的"},{"start":10898.455,"end":10927.241,"text":"所以在薪资变动上是很明显的对年轻族群来讲AI的导入是对年轻族群有益他的薪资或许会提升但是中高龄和年轻人可能会两极化M型化在这种状况里面我们需要政府的政策手段出来而政府的政策手段我要引进最近104的几个报道几个调查104他们最新发布了2025年超高龄社会企业"},{"start":10928.061,"end":10940.413,"text":"人才他永續的新思維白皮書在這個裡面呢他們2025年你看那個數據2025年企業友善中高齡職缺的只有28%"},{"start":10943.399,"end":10960.91,"text":"企業普遍認為 聘僱中高齡的最大難題是薪資過高請問你對聘僱中高齡 你遇到哪些困難企業遇到覺得 這個中高齡年資升了 漲了薪水都比年輕人還要高所以他們普遍認為勞動成本高"},{"start":10963.231,"end":10976.361,"text":"但是他們標示而且擔心標示了中高齡在虛空的廣告上去標示說我們歡迎中高齡的話他們認為說會影響年輕人的應徵的意願事實上"},{"start":10983.786,"end":11005.302,"text":"中高齡求職就一般的來看我們從企業端他覺得如果我在求職廣告上面求徵員工的廣告上面寫了我歡迎二度就業好像年輕人就不來了可是我們從勞工的立場來看這個民調他們也做民調了104也做民調了政府沒有做的104都在做了我認為"},{"start":11006.303,"end":11028.445,"text":"本來都是政府應該要實際上去協助和去做的調查真正的勞工在想什麼年輕的勞工在想什麼真正的勞工你去找工作的時候最先考慮到的是什麼年輕人並不是思考到說我不想要跟中高齡一起工作所有的勞工不管是哪個年紀他們第一個想到說我工作的地點是我第一的需求51.9%"},{"start":11030.347,"end":11051.722,"text":"但是第二個他們的需求其實講的是說我的薪資要可以得到多少所以在這裡啊這裡面數據沒有列出來是93.7%的年輕人正向的看待中立的看待標示歡迎中高齡的企業的求這個不是求職的徵才"},{"start":11055.405,"end":11080.441,"text":"所以企業都覺得說他們過去的那種概念其實是錯誤的可能錯估了求職者的心聲而錯失了中高齡的人才這是我第一點要講的第二點呢我國50歲以上的各年齡層的勞參率你知道普遍低於南韓 美國 日本和新加坡部長"},{"start":11081.602,"end":11088.413,"text":"我国在这个50岁以上的劳餐率是多少应该是大概50出头53吧53.54"},{"start":11095.325,"end":11120.358,"text":"你知道日本和新加坡在45歲到64歲勞參率仍然有八成45歲到64歲人家是80我們是6767.2但是如果在65歲以上你知道日本是多少新加坡是多少嗎65歲以上應該還有20幾以上"},{"start":11123.702,"end":11143.384,"text":"20幾 新加坡還32.5而台灣只有多少9.9 10沒有錯所以這種狀況裡面我們看到勞保財務惡化但是政府也從來沒有去提到說對提高中高齡就業率它也是一種方法"},{"start":11144.511,"end":11167.086,"text":"那個跟我們說明其實我們在中高齡的就業的專法通過以後其實很多計畫都開始實施而且其實也蠻有成果的其實這幾年也蠻有成果的那你現在告訴我你們具體的政策有哪些有成果的有成果的因為我剛才看到的數據也是最近的113年去年的"},{"start":11168.725,"end":11188.873,"text":"報告委員其實我們有一個在專訪通過之後我們有一個正位中高齡跟高齡者的三年的專案計畫那我們都是滾動檢討那我們目標就是每年要協助12萬人投入就業職場那對不起是人次12萬人那我想我們會朝這個目標持續的努力好沒關係你這樣講我也聽不懂"},{"start":11190.894,"end":11209.795,"text":"但是我就拿你們自己去年的數據113年中高齡及高齡的統計113年中高齡及高齡男女的失業人數各為6.4和4.3所謂的失業人數是他有就業意願65歲以上不是中高齡和高齡"},{"start":11210.676,"end":11235.795,"text":"他還有就業的意願可是男女加起來還10萬人以上那個失業率還是2點幾%平均起來男女加起來是2%以上而且我們看到女性的失業的狀況還比男性還要更嚴重因為女性容易因為家庭因素提前離開職場但是他很想重回返職場可是他的限制很多"},{"start":11237.036,"end":11261.278,"text":"在這種狀況裡面是這一張圖嗎是這一張圖所以這種狀況裡面中高齡婦女友善環境對他們講是最迫切的需求所以你們說你們的政策端出來我們就不知道說跟103年來比跟10年前來比去年的統計的數字103年跟10年女性中高齡的失業人數還增加了2萬人"},{"start":11264.577,"end":11270.641,"text":"兩萬人 十年前女性的這個失業人數45到64歲是兩萬三千人到113年是四萬三千人"},{"start":11278.295,"end":11293.287,"text":"所以你們說你們的政策做得很不錯我不是說不錯或者是說不需要再改善不是這個意思我是說其實這幾年因為之前那個中高齡的專法修了以後其實很多計畫在推廣那也包括"},{"start":11295.049,"end":11311.742,"text":"所以計畫推廣最終一定要落實在一個數據上面有意願工作卻找不到工作的那他的失業率應該要下降人數應該減少可是我們113年還比103年還多2萬其實不是多2萬是多一倍多一倍"},{"start":11313.624,"end":11334.655,"text":"我們是看到比率上面的勞參率是有提高但是就實際的絕對性的數字的話我們可以來再看一下他之所以現在呈現在委員資料裡面的原因是什麼我要再講104人力銀行的數據近三年你知道整體的勞動市場已經供小於需求了供給小於需求 職缺多於求職者"},{"start":11336.236,"end":11360.423,"text":"企業要因應這種就業勞動力的結構上的轉變其實應該逐步的去開啟中高齡人才的門在這種狀況裡面你看得出來中高齡友善企業率與友善職缺率你看友善企業率從49變成54友善職缺率它其實"},{"start":11361.463,"end":11370.867,"text":"他已經盡量再友善了這個比例也增加了5%可是他提供出來的職缺只成長了4%所以這種狀況裡面45歲以上求職者的這個"},{"start":11378.17,"end":11406.589,"text":"標示說我們要歡迎45歲以上來求職的企業的比例從113年49提升到114年的54%這個已經是專法通過了看起來他好像很重視中高齡的這個重要性了不過實際上在願意這個求採的招募資訊當中公開標注歡迎中高齡的職缺的仍然不到三成"},{"start":11408.33,"end":11433.145,"text":"然后仅有33%的企业会明确在求财的说明当中讲出说欢迎中高龄或二度就业这种友善其实是很难得到的专法过了其实也没有所以我们看得到调查的数据显示中高龄的族群平均每个月主动应征的人数在近三年成长了34.4%"},{"start":11436.348,"end":11439.513,"text":"你看每個月成長了34.4%從112年的6.1萬人到114年的8.2萬人"},{"start":11446.993,"end":11468.252,"text":"這明顯的沒有反映到中高齡的勞產率就是說即便中高齡的勞工他已經比起過去更願意主動應徵學習但是呢這個東西有沒有對照到提供機會做明明就是工作職缺很多找不到人可是這些中高齡"},{"start":11469.153,"end":11487.587,"text":"仍然在那裡因為年齡的歧視所以就找不到工作然後65歲以上的高齡者甚至被邊緣化然後中高齡每個月主痛應徵的人數三年內大幅成長但勞參率有改善嗎45到65改善一點多少點"},{"start":11494.557,"end":11500.612,"text":"成長多少啦4%那問題是雇主端聚用呢"},{"start":11501.538,"end":11524.937,"text":"其實從你剛才的數字可以看出兩件事情第一個中高齡願意求職的人數也在增加那有戰職缺的數字其實也有在增加那只是這兩個之間的增加當然我們覺得我們還有一些東西比例上還有落差對我們可以做得更好那裡面有幾件事情第一個是我們現在很重視比方說確實很多中高齡跟企業都跟我們說他們其實需要更多職務在設計的資源"},{"start":11527.299,"end":11541.757,"text":"那植物在設計的資源讓其實讓很多的職缺他可以更友善於實際上面遇到狀況因為他可能身體上面他比較難負重或者是各種在這個職場的情境裡面他需要多一點的幫忙所以你們的職業訓練的對象"},{"start":11545.521,"end":11568.364,"text":"是不是要有一部分的資源甚至更大的資源要從訓練年輕人然後要播出來給中高齡甚至65歲以上所以你的政策上對應出來了嗎尤其是我們希望能夠把職業在設計的部分做得能夠更細膩因為不同的行業可能會有不同職業在設計的專業的know-how在你們的職業訓練裡面"},{"start":11569.765,"end":11574.45,"text":"裡面你們的課程的改變中高齡的參與人數有成長嗎我剛說的職務在設計不是等同於職業訓練"},{"start":11583.615,"end":11603.978,"text":"那高齡者目前其實是有專班的那只是沒有 我就要問你說你專班的設計上有成長嗎服務的人次有成長嗎我們可以來再調一下相關的數字因為你講得很正確也很好聽可是我們我們可以來調我們必須要落實在執訓上面具體的課程上面參加的人次上面"},{"start":11604.318,"end":11630.33,"text":"我們可以來調相關的數字但不管是職業訓練或職務再設計都希望我們藉由這些具體的方法可以媒合更多現在有就業意願的中高齡進入到其實是有意願開放給中高齡的這些職缺對我現在看你官方的統計主計總署在人力運用上面中高齡113年5月中高齡和高齡失業者未未遇工作機會所遭遇的困難你知道"},{"start":11630.95,"end":11659.787,"text":"他们陈述的就是年龄限制大家对45岁以上甚至是将近65岁他们都有很大的年龄上的歧视所以真的是很困难然后大家企业也有固有的成见企业说欢迎中高龄会吓走年轻人但是我们看得到就是说年轻人认为这样的做法是加分的负面是极少的所以我们还看到2025年人资FBI调查也指出"},{"start":11660.847,"end":11684.912,"text":"僅招募40歲以下的求職者的企業平均要71.8天才能找到合適的人才如果你開放了40歲以上的求職者同時開放他平均可以縮短52天平均招募的天數縮短28%顯示僱用中高齡更能有效率的補足人力缺口"},{"start":11686.112,"end":11700.683,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 我們真的希望說依據你們自己的統計 中高齡及高齡統計你們也看到女性在中高齡現在因為她的再就業 沒人沒用 她只能從事什麼都能只能從事較低技術層次之類的 大概有七成"},{"start":11707.148,"end":11724.328,"text":"就低技術職類將近68.75%女性只能去做這種工作男性就以生產操作及勞力工124萬佔了42.1%最多女性以服務及銷售工作人員54.3萬人"},{"start":11726.67,"end":11742.318,"text":"生產操作和勞力工女性也佔了48萬人所以我們看得到就是說中高齡七成都集中在低技術的職類代表他的門檻被拒絕真的是他想要再進入職場"},{"start":11743.539,"end":11771.844,"text":"真的就是被拒到他只能進入那個最低薪的勞動條件最差的所以這種狀況我們在一直講說你要去改變這個結構性或者是真的不符合企業所需人才上的問題你的職訓 你的職業的轉職的能力然後你的課程你未來要怎麼去設計一個更友善的這個都不容忽視"},{"start":11772.944,"end":11797.76,"text":"要檢驗要有數據要有KPI讓我們看得見我們現在看到是勞資雙方都有往中高齡這邊去禁用或者是去求職的意願當然我們也覺得在這個趨勢之下我們應該更大力的拿政策的資源來去推進這是我完全同意的我一開始就跟你講不是只有在僱用而是留用一開始我就跟你講你要留用他如果留用65歲以上"},{"start":11798.681,"end":11819.719,"text":"留用了以後 我有什麼獎勵 鼓勵應該是有 那你有什麼獎勵鼓勵政策 有我們有繼續在雇用的獎勵怎麼鼓獎勵獎勵也要人家實用 看得到 吃得到或者是真的可以造成誘因 而不是為不足道"},{"start":11820.979,"end":11850.579,"text":"啊什麼你說有有什麼 針對借齡退休的我們鼓勵雇主繼續雇用借退的勞工那獎勵12個月每個月一萬三千元的多少人次來申請113年度是2000餘2000餘案那一年65歲退休多少人每年65歲以上借齡退休的多少人"},{"start":11854.784,"end":11870.963,"text":"不知道我們就是沒關係你去把它調查出來讓我們看一下這個政策的有效性需不需要再擴大如果有效的話需不需要再擴大OK好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11900.116,"end":11918.651,"text":"主席 請部長部長好這個原住民與非原住民的平均移民的落差一直都非常大"},{"start":11920.145,"end":11942.116,"text":"我們就以去年來講 平均落差是7.54這個年齡如果我們從山地原住民 平均落差是9歲如果是男生 就男生而言 山地原住民是10.38歲的落差 平均移民"},{"start":11943.708,"end":11971.159,"text":"整體原住民是8.77這個平均裡面的落差在這樣一個情形之下所以我們相關的這些無論是這個公教警消軍人或是尤其是勞工這相關的這些潛意就會受到很大的落差的影響"},{"start":11974.73,"end":12002.066,"text":"所以过去啊我们就政府机关都会重视唯独现在一直还没有完成的就是我们的劳工的部分我们看国民年金法第53条国民年金法定了很久了年满55岁的原住民一般是一般非原住民是65岁原住民就是55岁我们看这个"},{"start":12003.735,"end":12029.81,"text":"公务人员退休之前俯戏法也特别明定一般的公务人员是60岁就自愿退休原住民降为55岁就是有他的实际的年龄平均移民实际的落差的关系公立学校的教职员也是一样法律都这样定的"},{"start":12031.98,"end":12053.377,"text":"原住民在教職員公立學校教職員也是原住民身份者降為55歲就比一般的退休年齡可以降連農民退休儲金這是新的法例農民退休儲金條例本席在審查委會提案的時候針對"},{"start":12056.243,"end":12076.886,"text":"原住民的部分全國原住民跟身心障礙要不同的所以法律就明定要按照他的平均移民來去計算所以農民退休儲金條例的施行細則根據這個條例然後定了施行細則"},{"start":12078.294,"end":12103.685,"text":"也是要去七分全國原住民身心障礙的生命移民移民來去定定所以這個都是有一個已經有法律的依據了法律的可以可以參考所以這個部長所以我們原住民的部分"},{"start":12104.761,"end":12129.179,"text":"在勞工的部分是不是也應該要比照來訂定請我們市長來跟委員報告剛剛委員提到那個國民年金的那個是原住民給付原住民給付那是一個津貼的性質是由原民會編列公務預算來發的那國保的老年年金也是原住民的部分也是跟平常人一樣都是在65歲"},{"start":12130.839,"end":12149.284,"text":"發給那在勞工的這個部分主要是原住民整個勞工經濟整體的保障我們覺得不只是保險包括就業促進跟社會津貼的這個部分那嚴明也跟我們一樣都是"},{"start":12151.164,"end":12177.823,"text":"慢慢人口在高齡化所以整個社會保險都是採 逐步提高青年年齡的機制那老保的部分我們已經有可以提前五年齡減額年金的機制那整個老年幾戶也不是用平均餘面來當基礎所以為了制度的公平跟財務的安定整個幾戶條件應該跟一般的人一樣因為我們沒有分族群那以上跟各位跟委員報告"},{"start":12179.008,"end":12202.644,"text":"那個部長你支持剛才的同仁的說明嗎跟這位說明當然市長其實在講的確實是在整體政策上面的一些思考的點那其實從保險司或者是從我們在思考整體勞保年金的改革的"},{"start":12203.504,"end":12225.186,"text":"那麼年輕整體的制度來說的確會一直要去顧及一個相關的橫平性尤其是一個比較完整機制的部分所以確實在這個基金的運作裡面比較沒有從身分別去做差別化的處理剛才你那一句話部長那一句話橫平性很重要就是要從橫平性"},{"start":12227.455,"end":12242.261,"text":"刚才的说明都没有横平性就是因为要横平所以要按照实际的情形我们就讲年龄他就有这么大的平均移民的落差"},{"start":12244.564,"end":12267.002,"text":"按照現在的法律就不橫貧按照你勞動部所主管的這些法律就不橫貧跟我們說因為現在比較會有的討論比較是在青年年齡是不是要往更高來去拉所以對於要把某些部分的青年年齡要再往下降這件事情確實是需要比較多的考慮所以你對這個"},{"start":12269.601,"end":12295.936,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的平均移民有这么大的落差毫无手感所以这个部分跟委员不是这样子的比方说我们在这个平均移民的问题上我在当委员的时候我们也很支持比方说透过原建法或等等的尽量的来让我们在原住民族的健康的状态或者是那个部长大家能够来努力那个已经"},{"start":12296.676,"end":12325.328,"text":"你那樣的說法已經最起碼10年以上都是這樣的說法啦而事實上我剛特別擠了這麼多的法例從國民年金法降為55歲公立學校教職員降為55歲我們的公務人員的法例也是降為55歲農民退休儲金的條例"},{"start":12327.112,"end":12329.95,"text":"這是最新的法律這是上一屆才完成的"},{"start":12330.543,"end":12355.613,"text":"我應該說的部分都是退休金的部分不是這個一樣的他不是社會保險跟勞工保險不是一樣還是看年齡跟文說明老保是你沒有年齡嗎還有年齡的規定跟文說明老保是社會保險我們在主條審查的時候再好好討論老保是社會保險然後剛才的退休金的部分有他在這個"},{"start":12358.554,"end":12371.66,"text":"上面退休性質跟社會保險還是有不同的好我們在主條的時候再好好討論好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言請陳盈委員發言請勞動部長跟勞保局白局長"},{"start":12388.807,"end":12417.379,"text":"請紅部長 白局長謝謝陳委員好部長好我們今天主要針對這個災暴法裡面申請職災失能年金的勞工朋友以及繼續投保勞保的權益來做討論那目前每年核定職災失能的給付件數有多少我們確認一下數字"},{"start":12432.113,"end":12446.542,"text":"兩千多啊 兩千一百八十九件我們花了快一分鐘兩千三百八十五件兩千三百八十五好 你要還我一點時間那個我統計了這個 那我們看一下"},{"start":12451.049,"end":12471.826,"text":"我統計了這個113年7月份到114年6月份核定件數大約是1595件我想請教一下部長你們這個核定率的公式是到底是怎麼樣因為我檢查了一下你們所有的核定率都破百職業傷害換算是111%職業病是162%"},{"start":12481.678,"end":12499.651,"text":"是這邊是你們的核定計算是怎麼樣因為104年開始10年都是這樣子我是有點看不太明白"},{"start":12500.945,"end":12524.428,"text":"委員好謝謝委員這邊指教這邊的核定件數包含核定給付跟不給付那上面如果是屬於給付的話是職災案件你講大聲一點我們的核定件數包含核定是職災的案件跟核定不是職災的案件所以那個就是那所以那個可是"},{"start":12526.949,"end":12556.289,"text":"所以就是你們收件就是送件總共的這個送件的申請的案有多少的意思嗎是 跟委員這邊做報告 陳儒委員這邊所提的如果以總件數這邊總計兩萬七千零九十八件那直災的案件就是兩萬四千一百九十件那其中就是兩萬七千零九八裡面扣掉兩萬四千一百九十裡面是核定不給付直災的案件所以這邊的核定率是百分之八十九點二七"},{"start":12557.489,"end":12566.139,"text":"好你們這樣寫很容易讓人家看不懂因為我們不通過就不通過了很少有核定就是會講核定"},{"start":12568.307,"end":12591.121,"text":"我想我們可以在相關的表格把核定數怎麼去計算可以再做一個附註啦因為就是它等於是這個有幾副跟沒幾副有認定跟沒認定的部分其實它都把它包含在核定數裡面所以是母數你們要寫清楚一點不然就看起來很怪啦是我們在呈現的方式上可以再加註一下這個核定數的意思到底這件職業災害有沒有被核定"},{"start":12592.15,"end":12605.982,"text":"你說有 每一件都有有核定不通過跟核定有通過但是我們通常很少會這樣講就是核定確認你是什麼處置的意思那我們要申請經費也是有沒有核定了"},{"start":12607.014,"end":12627.864,"text":"通過都是大部分是這樣嘛因為我不知道這個有沒有什麼你們所謂的勞動專業術語在裡面我是不知道但是我認為我們在這個表格呈現的幅度上面我覺得我們可以把它呈現更清楚因為我如果這樣提出來那個部長在當委員的時候我不曉得你們有沒有會一下就看明白還是怎麼樣"},{"start":12629.565,"end":12647.669,"text":"好就這個提醒一下那我再請教就是說那個職災失能給付勤領職災年金的比例大概是多少你們有統計嗎跟委員做報告如果以今年的前9個月來講的話我們的年金勤領的比例大概是76%76%好"},{"start":12653.09,"end":12677.201,"text":"那因為這個職貸失能年金它是分為這個完全失能 嚴重失能跟這個部分失能那完全失能及嚴重失能都已經到喪失全部工作能力那也因此可以至少領到七成五成到七成及五成的這個月頭保薪資本期要關切的是"},{"start":12679.021,"end":12707.442,"text":"損失五成的工作能力但是只能勤領兩成的月頭保薪資那這一群部分失能的勞工朋友每年大概多少人然後佔領佔勤領職災年金的比例是多少該委員這邊做報告目前勤領部分失能年金的話目前還有在續領的是22人就22人而已嗎那沒有沒有很多"},{"start":12708.598,"end":12727.374,"text":"因為說到這邊我大概其他的人可能他選擇領一次那就是98年之前98以後他可以選擇如果說他的失能程度在我們的失能年金裡面有分完全失能、嚴重失能跟部分失能98年是個分水嶺嘛那說到這"},{"start":12732.862,"end":12748.087,"text":"因為說到這邊我特別回想就是說在當年我們在修災保法條文討論到最後只剩下最後一個爭議點就是職災勞工如果有其他社會保險權益是不是會受影響而不能請領"},{"start":12750.147,"end":12773.916,"text":"當時本席擔任召委那時候我們有特別要堅持說一定不能受到影響否則就需要再協商那還好當時也謝謝勞動部有從善如流那到今天就是說他們的這個勞健保權益勞工的勞健保權益都還在那也看到勞保局有特別強調這群勤領20%的部分失能年金者"},{"start":12775.036,"end":12803.348,"text":"將來都還可以領到這個老保的這個老年年金那局長是不是當時您是保險司的司長相信這些都記憶猶新啦我應該都沒有講錯啦好那但是我同時我也發現在債保法的58條規定被保險人或者其受益人因為不同保險事故同時請領本保險或其他社會保險年金給付時"},{"start":12805.368,"end":12821.337,"text":"本保險年金給付金額因考量被保險人或其受益人的請領年金給付數目金額總類及其他生活保障因素予以減額調整減額調整比率50%為上限"},{"start":12828.476,"end":12854.489,"text":"那這個問題在於就說你們的這個職災保險的QA解釋請領執職災保險失能年金與勞保老年年金給付的合計金額如果超過職災保險失能年金所採的平均月投保薪資數額本局將依規定自其原領職災保險失能年金辦理扣減"},{"start":12855.549,"end":12871.263,"text":"那我們從這個裡面的這個文字義來看喔到底你們是給人家扣多少是到底是扣多少因為如果如果說"},{"start":12872.919,"end":12890.557,"text":"老保老年年金他本來可以領到這個月頭保薪資的50%那他勢必就是超過這個職災失能年金的20%所以最後他到底可以領到這個合併的年金是多少"},{"start":12891.921,"end":12918.741,"text":"是 跟委員做報告 也非常謝謝委員當初在災保法那時候立法的時候 我們除了擴大家保的一個對象 那針對脊腹部分也從保障勞工的權益部分做了一些突破所以像委員剛才提到 在災保法58條裡面 針對如果被保險人他發生不同的保險事故 像剛才提的他可能領了職災的失能年金 那之後老年的時候他一樣可以領老年年金 那這兩份年金加起來的金額"},{"start":12919.557,"end":12942.936,"text":"不要高於他在栽保這部分的投保薪資平均投保薪資舉例來說如果以植栽部分他領的是一個兩萬塊那在那個老年年金部分假設加起來是三萬塊那這樣兩萬加三萬就會變成是五萬塊可是他的栽保部分的平均投保薪資也許是四萬五那我們就會做那個差額部分就不給付 因為如果我們"},{"start":12943.676,"end":12959.922,"text":"用一個薪水就是說這個薪水三萬塊的來計算的話那像這樣子失能的部分兩成他領六千嘛那這個老闆年金的部分他要領一萬五加起來是兩萬一但是你們"},{"start":12960.942,"end":12988.132,"text":"好像就直接是就給人家扣一半那個失能那個失能兩成的部分你們就直接扣一半如果他的災保的投保薪資沒有超過剛才的兩萬一那在領老年的時候我們不會扣他災保的錢確定不會扣嗎不會那委員剛才提到的那個個案是不是有什麼特殊的狀況是不是可以容我們會後可以跟委員這邊做請教因為他看起來是有些失能的就你們都直接把人家扣掉"},{"start":12990.129,"end":13008.548,"text":"委員是不是可以容這一部分就像剛剛講原則部分我們去做一個處理那如果個案部分的個案狀況我們來了解我想是這樣我是特別想要強調就是說可以領執在失能年金20%的勞工朋友他的工作能力損失至少超過50%"},{"start":13010.55,"end":13034.608,"text":"所以即使他今天重回職場了他的這個投保薪資可能比受傷前還低那幾年過去了就算這個平均月投保薪資是採計最高5年的平均可以領的這個老年年金還是比這個不發生職災當時可以領的少了很多然後你們"},{"start":13035.929,"end":13049.507,"text":"如果再扣這個職災失能年金的額度這樣是不是一種變相對於這個職災勞工的懲罰因為就是你們就扣了"},{"start":13053.396,"end":13070.387,"text":"因為原則是這樣但是實際上面的操作當然個案部分我想請委員再讓我們了解一下個案那我請我們勞保局來跟委員辦公室來了解一下這個實際的個案狀況是怎麼樣因為其實不管他的這個勞保局"},{"start":13072.708,"end":13093.087,"text":"他們的投保薪資是多少本席是認為就是說在職債失能年金的部分其實一毛錢都不該扣這個部分我要請你們特別去研議不管你們換算薪水是多少"},{"start":13094.368,"end":13118.361,"text":"那到底有沒有超過怎麼樣的總額其實本席都認為那個都不應該扣那因為同樣的道理這個職災傷病給付每年都超過五萬五千人這裡面其實也有很多我們的原住民的勞工朋友還有以及部長一直非常關心的這個外籍的勞工朋友們所以他們的職災其實至少高於全產業的四成"},{"start":13120.042,"end":13146.503,"text":"所以尤其是這幾年外籍的勞工朋友他們是更高的我想說我們都很關心不論是種族 國籍 年齡 性別這麼多的勞工朋友是不是都有回到職場以及回去以後投保薪資到底有沒有受影響所以這個部分我也特別提出來針對剛剛特別講的職債私人年金的部分我希望你們可以重新來研議"},{"start":13148.083,"end":13171.252,"text":"我們來評估一下 好不好對 當然就是相關的做法那我覺得可能有需要我們 也需要更多的個案然後我們透過這些個案來檢視它的實際的狀況然後來看看我們的原則是不是要來做一些調整好 謝謝那你們是大概一個月可以兩個月好不好兩個月 好 謝謝好 謝謝陳盈委員發言接下來請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":13182.645,"end":13209.632,"text":"謝謝主席一起各位先進有請勞動部的洪部長請洪部長代言好是 洪部長你好那麼關於今天談到大家要給老闆 勞保這個挹注每年要1000億以上你應該很高興的我們都要持續爭取啊"},{"start":13210.933,"end":13236.534,"text":"都要持續爭取給你錢你當然這個眼睛閉起來就是可能說因為我要扛我還你呢那不是嗎還是什麼我們都有還我們我們都還在爭取啊對不是我們現在我原本就提案說最少給你1000億難道你還有點猶豫主要是我們我們現在其實金額都我們現在爭取都是超過1000億啦1000億太少這兩年其實都超過1000億啊"},{"start":13239.557,"end":13257.387,"text":"我們都超過1000億所以我們希望爭取的金額是當然都是可能是要超過1000億所以你爭取多少明年的公務預算其實是1200億然後再加上特別條例特別條例裡面100億所以一年大概可以高達大概1500差不多"},{"start":13257.967,"end":13285.905,"text":"我們都希望能夠持續在爭取因為確實勞保的財務確實勞保的財務都需要大家的幫忙請教一個問題勞工退休那個字體的6%這一部分是我看了一下勞工真的只有字體這個是政府鼓勵6%的部分是免稅的那這個比例很低大概16%不到那這個原因你要不要講原因到底是什麼"},{"start":13286.837,"end":13293.506,"text":"各位說明其實我們在基金在運用的收益其實這20年平均起來都是大概6%以上"},{"start":13294.946,"end":13315.876,"text":"那其實字體比率比較低 如果仔細去看的話其實比較高收入的勞工他比例就蠻高的那低收入的勞工 薪資比較低收入的勞工他比例就比較低那個東西就是很簡單的一句話就打死了就可以回答了嘛請這裡都沒搞 又爬冠你拿6%出來來 我就問你一個問題"},{"start":13319.438,"end":13348.179,"text":"一般的勞工退下來勞保加勞退一個月大概多少錢現在嘛現在但是因為現在勞保的勞保年金其實時間在還20年而已嘛不不不這可以大概你隨便Google一下都有這個數字大概多少勞保加勞退就等於是勞工退下來對他的生活的保障到底保障到哪裡大概兩萬多吧"},{"start":13349.685,"end":13366.898,"text":"兩萬多啦 加起來大概兩萬四左右那你知道現在一般的生活會要多少錢當然 你會說 你看怎麼活啦但是我們就平均嘛平均 我看你現在平均要三萬 起跳"},{"start":13368.26,"end":13383.82,"text":"所以對於就是說以現在的制度對於勞工的退下來的保障是不夠的這也就是為什麼6%來講的話一些收入比較低的根本就欠一家人不夠 被拔光所以我剛剛講"},{"start":13384.946,"end":13412.62,"text":"我們勞保加勞退就等於是我一個勞工他推下來的一個所得大概兩萬四左右 兩萬四 兩萬五目前啦 因為很多勞保的年資還沒有到那麼長所以目前的數字是這樣那生活費 以目前的生活費大概三萬到七條所以這個很明顯中間有一個gap大概有八千塊左右啊你再加一個勞動等於勞工的大家長啊"},{"start":13413.615,"end":13433.708,"text":"我們全台灣的勞工人數多少超過千萬差不多一千萬左右有人說九百多 超過千萬一千萬 你等於是一千萬勞工的大家長你要不要站在你的立場怎麼樣讓勞工退下來他的生活又暴漲"},{"start":13434.548,"end":13447.383,"text":"跟文說明其實第一個我們當然很希望更大的程度的來鼓勵勞工的自體因為目前以基金的收益率6%的話其實等一下你說6%不願意講"},{"start":13449.985,"end":13465.817,"text":"8月31號公佈的勞退基金只有4.78勒還比舊資的少舊資的8.19勒還有融退基金6.33同樣一個Umbrella你們在操作的差賊薪資的勞退其實是不好的"},{"start":13467.098,"end":13469.779,"text":"公佈到最新的9月底為止 新制是7.69就制是12.56為什麼都輸給舊制 為什麼新制要輸給舊制"},{"start":13482.248,"end":13503.416,"text":"差一截大概幾乎一半啦為什麼我們對於基金的操作是公平對待所有金管的基金然後我們追求的是長期投資的效益那所以我們來看長期投資的效益其實我們就我們新智跟舊智其實收益都差不多你看舊智12點多什麼差不多12點多跟7點多差距什麼"},{"start":13506.158,"end":13518.994,"text":"我跟委員報告一下如果來看近10年舊制7.92國保是7.69 新制也差不多這樣那如果15年其實反而舊制是6.85國保是7.23新制15年的話15年是"},{"start":13524.461,"end":13534.847,"text":"等一下喔 15年是6.91也是比舊制好但是大概都差不多因為我們長期的消費是你聽好 你剛剛講的矛盾喔我要講最新的你講舊制12點多新制呢7點多差這個"},{"start":13542.771,"end":13556.949,"text":"跟委員說明因為這真的都要看比較看長期啦所以整體長期平均的話大概都是6% 7%啦這樣子所以這個這個不啦我問部長啦你有沒有什麼具體的做法或者政治的宣政策上的宣宣示讓"},{"start":13558.83,"end":13581.739,"text":"讓勞工的自體的比例提高跟文說明第一個我們當然現在我們其實也在研議那要怎麼樣來讓勞工的自體提高因為這個6%的假設6%以上7%的收益率的確會可以對於勞工的退休生活是有幫助的那要不要把6%提高到8%只是其實我覺得這都是可以考慮的因為這是免稅"},{"start":13584.599,"end":13607.066,"text":"因為這個是免稅的部分我想我們都願意來跟其他部會來做討論但是第一個事情是的確我們看到比例提高重點是現在是確實比較低薪的勞工他自體的意願比較低我覺得我們要先克服這一段因為的確比較低薪的勞工他是更需要這件事情的那就是如何讓加薪嘛那你要怎麼提出"},{"start":13608.506,"end":13624.355,"text":"除了加薪我們也希望能夠再提出更多的誘因比方說如果勞工願意自提的話我們可以給他什麼樣子再多的誘因的協助我們也希望朝這個方向來提你知不知道我們現在勞工的平均薪資多少"},{"start":13626.038,"end":13630.78,"text":"目前如果老保的話大概3.6%總出的主計長公佈了4萬8平均4萬8結果你們是中位數據有3萬6"},{"start":13642.112,"end":13668.072,"text":"然後退下來就全部加起來 不然都加起來老退加老保兩萬四你雞派鬼啦老公退休的請問你一千萬個老公退休老公有多少 有多少人每年嗎有沒有這個數字退休老公有多少人可能要看一下新舊制的差別"},{"start":13670.134,"end":13686.191,"text":"我就是一個啦 你要想辦法你站在勞工的大家長的位子上想辦法大家是勞有所保啦對不對這個老了退下來的我這個最少"},{"start":13687.412,"end":13704.613,"text":"minimum的生活能夠維持嘛剛才講老退家老保只有兩萬四生活的基本要三萬二最低三萬二我還沒跟你講到三萬五對不對而且你平均薪資就是三萬六這個東西來講來講的話是差很多的啦"},{"start":13704.813,"end":13727.224,"text":"跟我說這也是為什麼我們連續10年調漲最低工資從原本最低工資2萬左右那現在已經接近到3萬那這也是其實都是希望對於相對比較辛苦的勞工朋友能夠從政府的角度來幫他們多幫忙的部分這是為什麼連續10年做最低工資調升的很重要的原因我就講說你要每年要1500億左右"},{"start":13730.305,"end":13746.998,"text":"我希望你plus把6%再往上調去找財經部這個我在財委會裡面我們都可以支持對不對這6%我們要誘引提高到10%可以嗎我覺得我們來評估跟研議吧這個事情這個方向一個月可以出來嗎一個月兩個月好不好兩個月"},{"start":13750.342,"end":13759.87,"text":"把6%那個那個天花板再往上掀up to 10%好不好好謝謝賴世保委員發言接下來請邱振軍委員發言主席好啊我們請洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":13781.789,"end":13801.489,"text":"各位好 部長好關於這個勞保我們這個入法的這件事情我想請問一下你對於勞保撥補法治化這個部分呢您這個整體提案大概有三個部分那我大概有三個方向就是說政府要負最後的責任"},{"start":13802.33,"end":13813.782,"text":"入法還有政府每年撥補至少1000億入法那基金報酬每打6%國庫來補差現在看起來你們的好像有其他意見是嗎"},{"start":13815.29,"end":13841.121,"text":"跟文說明當然對於撥補這個概念把它入法我想我們不會反對但是對於要有一個固定的金額入法這件事情因為它牽涉到財政紀律法的第7條所以在這個如果要固定金額入法這上面就會跟財政紀律法第7條會有漢格主要是這個部分那其他的呢那針對每年要6%"},{"start":13842.521,"end":13859.214,"text":"的部分因為這個勞保基金其實是這個確定給複製那在確定給複製上所以比較不是剛剛我講說好像是收益率沒有達多少來撥比較不是這個概念"},{"start":13861.47,"end":13888.553,"text":"對 但是我們現在今天錄這個法只是希望讓勞工安心這個是最基本的當然也減少你的壓力可是我剛剛我想到一件事情我看到就是說今年6月底我們勞保的潛藏的負債是13兆5632億比起前一年11兆8628億增加了1.7兆那以按照目前的撥補方式也只是延後破產而已"},{"start":13889.69,"end":13914.931,"text":"對不對跟委員說明第一個因為潛藏負債因為這是一個社會保險所以本來就有世財互助的性質那潛藏負債的原因是因為過去我們其實這個費率並沒有足而提撥會慢慢的增加所以在各國的這個公共的基金裡面社會保險的基金裡面都會有潛藏負債的狀況問題它每年都多這麼多"},{"start":13916.263,"end":13932.57,"text":"對 所以都會有潛藏負債的狀況所以這也是為什麼我們持續的在做撥補而且這兩年我們撥補的力道甚至都已經超過1000億你現在除了撥補你現在除了這個你有想到其他方法嗎第一個是撥補第二個是我們其實這幾年我們在基金的投資的效益其實都相當不錯"},{"start":13934.051,"end":13960.728,"text":"那甚至去年高多的話到16% 18%以上因為每次討論到這個勞保破產的問題勞工朋友都會非常擔心那當然他們擔心是不是會影響他的權益那要解決勞保破產的問題不是增加收入就是減少支出那現在看起來減少支出的部分原則上你們都不太敢碰那增加收入的部分除了每年提高基本工資跟撥補之外有準備調高保費嗎"},{"start":13962.536,"end":13988.586,"text":"确实强化保费当然是各界其实会提出来的其中一个方向可是这的确牵涉到劳工的权益跟雇主的权益所以这部分当然我们还需要更多的社会的讨论但是这个也是一种方式因为基本工资提高保费就会增加那当然我们增加几十亿也是不错也是增加至少也是一种方式那就是说我在想就是说您在这个位置上"},{"start":13989.386,"end":14004.324,"text":"您會在你任內提出整套的改革方法嗎除了撥補之外我想其實跟委員說明對於維持勞保基金的水位那我們其實這幾年很努力包括爭取撥補是其中之一"},{"start":14005.393,"end":14032.934,"text":"也包括剛才說基金的投資的效益那我們其實最近也都有蠻亮眼的基金投資的效益那其實也給基金其實蠻多的因為你這個潛藏負債一直在提高我認為他不是好事啊對不對雖然是雖然是各國都有這種潛藏的負債他其實並不會一次的實現因為他也會說你可以請領相關的條件如果你沒有到可以請領的條件其實也不能請領潛藏負債是指說以現在所有的這個被保險的狀況假如當下"},{"start":14035.195,"end":14063.414,"text":"他當然不會一次的請領的話才是這個潛藏負債的狀況所以他其實概念上面當然我覺得我們要非常非常的留意而且要預作準備我們也要預作準備我再問我們勞動部公開國際勞動的統計結果之後看起來台灣被比喻為過勞之島這個說法不是讓得虛名去年2020年台灣的年工時2030小時是全球第五比日本還高"},{"start":14064.595,"end":14082.646,"text":"那在亞洲的部分是排名第二那今年五月我們國民黨跟民眾黨在民進黨的全面反對之下共同通過的這個還價於民至少把過去把被民進黨砍掉的價還給勞工朋友那現在勞團持續呼籲特休的部分也要進行改革這件事你有掌握嗎"},{"start":14084.005,"end":14098.422,"text":"我想勞工團一直都對於特休有這個天數上面的一些期待你認為這個數字有沒有修改的必要就是有沒有在進步的空間"},{"start":14099.563,"end":14118.448,"text":"第一個我想先跟委員補充在數據上面其實台灣的工時應該不是全球第五高因為這個數字這個表格並不是把所有全世界所有的國家都列出來但是的確我們認為台灣的工時怎麼樣可以做得更好我們跟隔壁"},{"start":14119.168,"end":14135.846,"text":"的國家比就好了像日本韓國嘛對不對如果是全時的工時的話其實台灣的工時統計下來並沒有比日本韓國來的高如果是全時我們這個原因是因為台灣部分工時的比例比較低就是以勞動市場來講台灣最接近的是南韓嘛"},{"start":14136.647,"end":14162.553,"text":"那全職工作比例相近兼職的比例也相近如果全職比全職的話我們的工時是比南韓來的低一些的我們算起來2024年台灣是2030小時南韓是1859小時怎麼會比他低呢如果是全職來看的話去年113年每週的經常性工時的話台灣是41.5韓國是42.8我說以全職來看如果是全職比全職的話"},{"start":14167.895,"end":14187.407,"text":"我們現在講全部啊對所以這也是為什麼我們說因為台灣的部分公司你不要把它拆開來講你們都找你們對你們有利的數字來講所以我說如果是全時比全時的話你不能這樣比你這個是整體的意思但是我可是跟委員說我不是說這樣台灣的公司就不用做出改革不是這個意思"},{"start":14187.847,"end":14212.181,"text":"我跟你大概講一下就是說南韓勞工這個一進公司就有特休台灣等半年才會給三天這就是公司差距的第一個來源那南韓用高額罰款實時稽查逼企業縮短工時那台灣的這個罰金太小稽查太弱公司自然降不下來那南韓勞工有合法權利可拒絕雇主要求加班強迫加班會"},{"start":14213.061,"end":14235.801,"text":"被認為是職場霸凌或非法命令台灣名義上可以拒絕但是在實務上幾乎是無法拒絕的台灣通常是主管一句話今天要趕工就變加班了也就是說韓國政府讓韓國勞工有拒絕權但是我們台灣在政府的力道薄弱的狀態下勞工變成被迫的文化"},{"start":14236.642,"end":14258.528,"text":"第四個 南韓把過勞史視為國家責任我們台灣把過勞史視為個案處理南韓工會參與率是14%大企業工會非常強勢談判的結果 資方通常都會讓步但是台灣工會參與率只有7%而且只有勞動部常常站在資方的立場去思考問題"},{"start":14259.975,"end":14274.474,"text":"還有台灣的稽查力度是南韓的十分之一啦我想這些都是問題那部長這不是統計的問題是國家施政的一個差距啦我認為是希望部長在這邊呢能夠承諾來改善這個狀況"},{"start":14276.398,"end":14302.277,"text":"跟委員說沒有其實還是有說數字上面的比較是一回事但的確我們認為在工時的問題上面其實有一些我們還可以在更多努力的地方比方說我們其實也很希望接下來擴大其實對於可能很多的工會或者是簽這個團體協約怎麼樣簽一個比較高於法令然後能夠對於勞工的工時更有保障或更多考慮"},{"start":14303.418,"end":14318.223,"text":"這部分我們希望更多研議部長我再問最後就是說勞團呼籲我們這個包含特休這個地震要更快上限要提高另外改善勞動條件提高勞參率就是缺工的問題要解決才不會這個因"},{"start":14319.143,"end":14338.684,"text":"因為缺能而不能放假部長會朝這三個方向來進行嗎第一個關於缺工的問題我想我們很認真的研議那特休呢近期其實也因為在考慮到缺工部分產業缺工所以我們也在整體的跨國勞動力政策上面做出了一些精進跟調整那第二個我覺得在關於特休我覺得我們可以整體性的來思考"},{"start":14339.764,"end":14365.335,"text":"所以你們是支持的嗎我們可以整體性的來思考這個事情你支持嗎 你先講嘛我想從勞工的角度當然都會希望特休提高但是當然我說就政策來說的話我們願意來做整體性的來思考這部分有沒有空間 有多少空間那部長多久可以回答我三個月好不好好 謝謝部長"},{"start":14373.543,"end":14376.587,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員發言接下來請王紅薇委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩那個勞動部部長請紅部長"},{"start":14396.621,"end":14425.535,"text":"保委員好好 部長好今天其實主要是我們要針對勞保條例我們在立法院有很多的修正案的版本那剛才也有委員提到就是說確實我們現在以這個勞退來講勞保老年年金的這個請領確實是金額比較低那以現在其實有一個比較好的趨勢也就是能夠領兩萬元以上的比例"},{"start":14426.475,"end":14454.627,"text":"这几年都开始在增加但是事实上就说对于广大劳工来讲他即使月领2万元真的比基本工资都低非常非常的多但是从这个比例的上升比如说以去年12月底来讲就是勤领的年金每个月月领2万元以上的已经可以达到将近一半"},{"start":14455.927,"end":14472.259,"text":"而這個情理年金越增加當然也代表我們的就是這個年金大家在講的說勞保的一個潛在的負債的一個風險那麼當然也使得說這個可能會提前破產的問題"},{"start":14473.38,"end":14497.78,"text":"但是呢我们这一次的修法就是想要安定我们所有广大劳工他们的心情不要认为说有一天他可能呢他的年金劳保年金他就都没有办法领到所以我想再确定一下以我个人来说我对于劳保条例的修法主要是两大方向一个就是"},{"start":14498.621,"end":14513.404,"text":"把撥補勞保法制化這個剛才部長說願意嗎我們是支持撥補勞保法制化另外一個 民定政府負最後的支付的責任這個部長也同意嗎"},{"start":14514.725,"end":14542.451,"text":"政府付最後支付責任是現在本身的政策那如果要把它放入到條文裡面當然要放在條文裡頭我覺得這個就把它法治化另外就是每三年檢討勞保的財務這個應該也沒有問題那現在剛才您特別講就是說你同意法治化但是並不同意說要一定的金額一定的金額恐怕就是還很著每一年政府財政的問題"},{"start":14543.391,"end":14572.537,"text":"那我想請問部長有沒有想過一個問題也就是說把這個撥補勞保把它法治化的這個過程裡面它的裁員從何而來從何而來譬如說我們現在政府做長照長照就有裁員包含菸酒的這個規費跟稅收這個合理嘛就是長照的裁員來自於菸酒的稅收"},{"start":14573.337,"end":14589.009,"text":"那以我們未來如果把它法治化之後有沒有想過它的裁員可以從哪裡你有沒有跟財政部或主計處去討論一下根本說明的確這其實也各界的朋友在倡議"},{"start":14591.05,"end":14612.572,"text":"第一個是其實對於可能潛在有可能的來源有些人比方有些人講到營業稅有些人講到是不是主權基金那有些人講到是不是有些外匯存底的可能我覺得這些可能可以挹注財源的做法我想我們當然相關的研議我講我們都是非常正面的看待這些狀況老蔣"},{"start":14614.053,"end":14638.145,"text":"讲裁员是有点困难固定裁员比如说最近健保的补充保费就轩然大波因为它动到ETF那种小资族的ETF健保保费不外乎就是从费率提高另外就找一个裁员老讲我觉得主权基金跟外汇存底都是第一个主权基金在哪里还不晓得"},{"start":14638.365,"end":14662.991,"text":"外匯存體中央銀行不會同我倒是覺得你們可以去跟財政部或者是金管會去討論一下證交稅證交稅我不是要把提高證交稅的稅率剛剛下面有人笑我不是要提高證交稅的稅率但是當股市非常好的時候比如說你知道我們光是10月份證交稅超過300億"},{"start":14664.847,"end":14679.77,"text":"就超过300亿当然今年是比去年同期是少的今年因为有台美关税的这个扰动但是呢因为证交税我们这几年常常税收超征都来自于征交税的贡献"},{"start":14681.607,"end":14698.614,"text":"因為你股市好代表你的經濟好嘛代表你的金融市場好嘛那如果在他好的時候你提撥其中一定的比例挹注到我們的勞保基金我覺得是可以去想的一個"},{"start":14699.654,"end":14717.947,"text":"方法就像菸酒稅菸酒稅也沒有固定說每年一定大家一定要抽菸一定要喝酒沒有那也會希望大家健康啊少抽菸少喝酒他就向下來了他確實是浮動的他確實是浮動的但是他是可以去做考慮的"},{"start":14719.128,"end":14741.153,"text":"我覺得你什麼外匯存底 老師說我剛才是說有人在提是 沒有錯當然你說營業稅 營業稅當然就營業稅也是當然交易很好的時候也是代表整個的經濟比較好的一個狀況所以我剛才講在金融市場你知道其實我們的衛福部最大的錯誤是"},{"start":14743.294,"end":14763.274,"text":"它動到有關於補充保費動到那個股息 股利因為它只有2萬塊2萬塊就變成你是往小資族去開刀那當然引起極大的反彈所以我基本上增加稅稅率不用提高因為你提高的話不知道有多少人來跟你抗議"},{"start":14764.215,"end":14782.804,"text":"可是如果當這個證券市場比較好的時候可不可以提撥一些比例我覺得這是可以去想的方向如果我們要把它提撥法治化的時候好我看到我們的主席站起來了好謝謝可以去想謝謝王宏威委員發言接下來請徐欣寧委員發言"},{"start":14792.32,"end":14795.947,"text":"謝謝主席本席請財政部國庫署的主密羅主密"},{"start":14816.311,"end":14839.222,"text":"你麦克风对对对我也好好请问主秘本席请教你劳工保险是不是国家办理的强制性社会保险是的是吗对那既然是国家办理的强制性社会保险所以政府是不是就应该负起最终支付责任这不就是国家应有的承诺吗是吗"},{"start":14839.758,"end":14856.243,"text":"对 我想但这个部分的话不是 你就回答是不是嘛因为你是国家这个办理的强制性社会保险那国家就应该负起最终支付责任是不是应该如此我的了解好像劳动部是朝这个方向在处理的"},{"start":14857.301,"end":14871.447,"text":"对那财政部的立场这国家要负这最终支付责任吗目前看起来应该也是朝这个方向在处理是吗对那本席也要特别强调你看金融机构都会对客户承诺"},{"start":14872.466,"end":14892.882,"text":"负最终支付责任我们中华民国政府不能够一直躲躲藏藏畏畏缩缩不敢负责所以这个最终责任入法是我们政府对劳工最低的承诺它不是代价而估的税出经费那本席想接着再追问财政部"},{"start":14894.537,"end":14908.244,"text":"在報告中我看你們今天的報告你們一直強調最終責任入法的預算成本但你們有沒有算過如果入法之後帶來的社會效益財政部有沒有算過有沒有去考量過這個部分還是勞動部考量那我請部長 部長順便請您請洪部長"},{"start":14923.408,"end":14941.904,"text":"部長我想還是既然您上來我也請教你我想您這個勞動部的報告裡講說開放的態度但是我好像有聽到您今天的答覆就是您支持也認同政府負最終支付責任我不反對"},{"start":14943.078,"end":14969.319,"text":"你是敢講負反對我不是敢講我跟委員說明現在政策上政府就是負最終支付責任也因為我們有負最終責任的想法所以這幾年我們才很大力的做撥補撥補的力道越來越大所以既然如此那為什麼遲遲不入法不只是意願我們也有時機的行動那今天委員在大院要來審議入法我想就是我們非常非常願意開放性的來討論"},{"start":14970.62,"end":14988.455,"text":"这个最终支付责任的概念而且既然您说现在已经具体行动入法是让我们的劳工们吃下一个定心丸是所以我说我们并不反对这样做那因为目前的政策的立场我们就是政府负最终责任这是非常清楚的"},{"start":14989.135,"end":15013.636,"text":"这不是口号所以我们希望入法未来不管谁执政所以我说我们用开放的很正向的态度来看这个立法院相关的审议那我们会提出我们在文字审定上面的意见财政部的主密他说那你们劳动部有没有去考量过也算过我们如果入法之后我们可以带来的社会效益部长您发表一下"},{"start":15015.842,"end":15033.648,"text":"您是照顾所有劳工的跟委员说明第一个其实入法当然代表的是一个政府态度的承诺稳定民心这是一个稳定承诺这个效益就非常好但是实际上面我们还是在做比方说"},{"start":15034.548,"end":15055.162,"text":"就我們的工作來說我還是必須持續的大力的跟行政院跟組總來爭取這個撥補那我們還是必須要很實際的來怎麼樣來提高我們在基金投資的效益這是實際行動的部分所以我們要對社會有一個態度的表達也要在實際行動上面要有明確的斬獲"},{"start":15056.229,"end":15073.694,"text":"劳工们都希望您的所有的这个为他们争取的要让他们对制度有信心当然所以入法之后不仅是稳定民心也让他们对政府对制度有信心更重要可能可以降低这种"},{"start":15074.654,"end":15097.371,"text":"挤兑领取的压力减少这些动荡如果我们这个过去执政党民进党政府一直的在讲哇老保年金快破产快破产其实是造成很多他们的一个恐慌那你如果到一个程度他们这个整个都提早退休然后大家这样子来挤兑其实这个对社会也不好"},{"start":15098.391,"end":15115.618,"text":"當然我們不希望發生我們一起來努力讓我們這個勞保年金就是勞工保險的我們可以這個入法而且政府入這個附最終我想這是朝野可以一起合作的議題謝謝許新英委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":15128.928,"end":15153.6,"text":"秦宏部長黃委員好部長好 部長我先就剛剛委員有特別垂詢就是說我們勞保其實在之前你們就已經有講過政府一定是負最終的責任是這個從以前到現在就是這樣子態度上是 做法上也是就都是這樣子對"},{"start":15154.62,"end":15175.134,"text":"所以我希望就是說那未來也希望朝野能夠有一個共識如果未來真的要入法的話如果真的入法其實這個應該是大家都有共識的就是政府負最終的一個責任那另外部長我想請教就是說我們現在的這個勞工退休"},{"start":15176.095,"end":15201.973,"text":"退休金這個有分三大就是說一個是勞保一個是勞退一個是自行投資那這個有關這個勞工自己提撥6%的這個部分之前很多人希望就是說政府是不是也要鼓勵勞工來自行提撥這個6%那我們看到現在目前為止就是有超過85%的勞工"},{"start":15204.315,"end":15219.324,"text":"是沒有自提沒有這個自己提撥那這樣子的話我們這個勞動部這樣要怎麼樣來鼓勵勞工確保未來退休的生活能夠更穩定是不是"},{"start":15219.984,"end":15238.653,"text":"可以自己来提拨这个6%甚至我们之前也在提到就是说那劳工如果自己提拨那政府是不是鼓励也加就是加码我不知道说部长您针对这一部分怎么样去鼓励劳工可以自行提拨"},{"start":15241.175,"end":15261.041,"text":"跟文說明的確現在整體現在總體的數字來看看起來字體的比例沒有到很高但是如果仔細去分析的話可以看到相對比較高所得勞工他字體的比例就高很多那這當然有幾個原因第一個原因是因為這個其實我們現在在整個薪資勞退"},{"start":15261.881,"end":15274.474,"text":"的投資的效益上面大概都超過6%幾%其實這就整體來說從定存的角度來說這其實效益都是很不錯的所以其實高收入老公他覺得這個對他來講是有幫助他就願意"},{"start":15276.656,"end":15301.067,"text":"可是的確對於比較低薪的勞工他就會比較多的考慮他生活上面的負擔等等所以我們其實現在也在研議那怎麼樣子我們覺得政府應該多出一點資源那怎麼樣子來鼓勵或者是來刺激其實勞工願意自體的意願尤其是比較低薪的勞工因為按理來說其實低薪的勞工其實是需要更多的幫助的因為低薪的勞工他按照他現在的這個勞退的繳納的狀況他其實"},{"start":15305.028,"end":15329.538,"text":"在退休以后他还是会比较还是比较辛苦的所以其实照理来说应该是更更帮助大家所以这也是为什么我们也看到立法院有一些党团那有提案比方说如果愿意自提的话那是不是政府要补一趴或者是什么的那我说这个各种方法我想我们都愿意来考虑那你们有朝着这个方向去思考吗这个请"},{"start":15331.531,"end":15353.681,"text":"報告委員 那有關這個鼓勵自體的部分那我們已經有在做一些研議和規劃那我們希望說用更多的這個宣導的宣達的方式我覺得宣導應該不好如果有用的話從以前你們就是希望勞工能夠自體6%應該就有用了那為什麼還有85%的勞工沒辦法自體"},{"start":15355.982,"end":15376.387,"text":"所以我觉得你用宣导的方式我觉得是没有用那是不是可以用更积极的方式就像刚刚部长讲的比如说劳工他自提1% 2% 3%那政府是不是可以鼓励就鼓励性质的比如说也加码加码1% 2% 3%这样子可以这样做吗"},{"start":15377.007,"end":15390.758,"text":"跟委員說其實很坦誠的說從勞動部角度我們當然都不反對政府怎麼樣加碼可是這的確牽涉到現在接下來他也要有裁員那在現在整個中央政府的財政狀況第一個"},{"start":15393.32,"end":15416.752,"text":"目前整个中央政府财政的预度也大幅的降低所以我觉得我们愿意来跟组总来争取我觉得你们应该也要去试算一下就是说如果这个劳工自己提拨的话那鼓励性质比如说加1%那这样子到底会增加多少的预算我觉得应该可以去试算我们可以来做一些相关的计算对"},{"start":15417.172,"end":15436.813,"text":"那另外就是說也有這個譬如說他自體6%的話那我們現在看到就是說每月薪資自體6%那這個當年度是可以結稅就不列入當年的這個薪資所得課稅可是等他要退休要領取的時候就會再合併計算"},{"start":15438.414,"end":15464.344,"text":"所以是不是也可以从另外一个角度去看关于我们这个劳工朋友自提的这个部分是不是可以有这样子的一个免于扣缴所得税的这样子鼓励的方式我觉得你们应该也可以朝这个方向去做现在已经免税对呀这个是当年度免税嘛那等你要退休要领的时候就会合并计算嘛"},{"start":15467.006,"end":15477.991,"text":"其實應該不太會去達到這個部分對基本上應該就是免稅的這6%是免稅但如果要把這個免稅的額度6%再往上這當然就要跟財政部討論"},{"start":15479.576,"end":15499.181,"text":"所以我这边是不是可以请部长针对这一部分比如说我们劳工朋友自提6%那未来也许这个自提上限到10%那这个是不是可以免所得税 课税我觉得这也许可以让劳工有所心动了"},{"start":15500.001,"end":15518.853,"text":"那其实劳工的退休生活能够稳定我觉得这个也是我们劳动部应该要做的就像刚刚部长有特别提到其实大部分的劳工他退休退休之后的月退大多数都只有领一万多块大多数那如果像这样子的话"},{"start":15519.793,"end":15538.972,"text":"甚至有的還不到一萬塊那如果這樣子的話如果可以鼓勵他在年輕工作的時候他就自體這個自行提撥那未來他退休的生活應該可以更穩定那政府應該鼓勵鼓勵不是只有宣傳總是要有一些實質的行動我想我們應該可以規劃一些誘因"},{"start":15541.033,"end":15566.327,"text":"可以嗎 我認為我們可以朝向規劃誘因的方式另外部長我再接下來請教就是說我們目前台灣的這個平均每年的工時這個2024年是2030個小時那比前一年就是2023年的這個工時2020個小時還要高那我想請教就是說這個我們"},{"start":15568.088,"end":15590.65,"text":"這個平均每年的這個工時在世界各國的排名已經是排名第五那也許會有一樣一種狀況就是說其實在公司或者是這個勞工可能是缺工那大部分如果需要接單這個公司接單之後那需要勞工朋友可能要加班"},{"start":15591.37,"end":15613.63,"text":"去做这项工作加班嘛那我想请教部长就是说像这样子的一个我们现在有规定就是每周这个工作差不多40个就是40个小时嘛那其实有很多劳工朋友还要再加上加班那如果是这样子的话其实现在目前"},{"start":15614.611,"end":15636.171,"text":"一般的傳產大家會覺得說缺工缺工很厲害那就從這些原本在工作的這些勞工就希望他們能夠加班那當然他的工時又增加了嘛那一般的新進可能這個社會新鮮人看到這家公司可能生意很好24小時都要加班"},{"start":15637.455,"end":15652.175,"text":"就不敢進來這間公司所以就變成說這個是一個惡性循環可能新進的勞工不敢進來這家公司因為要加班嘛每天都要加班原本就的這些勞工"},{"start":15652.976,"end":15672.114,"text":"他可能工时就一直累进一直增加那也没办法得到一个适当的休息那我会觉得说这也是一个恶性的循环怎么样让这个企业主能够有新的能够得到这个好的人才进到公司来"},{"start":15672.594,"end":15688.275,"text":"那又讓勞工一般的勞工能夠得到一個好的休息我覺得這個應該也是勞動部這邊要去好好的思考那怎麼樣讓我們的工時能夠再下降整體工時我不是說整週的就是說整體的工時"},{"start":15689.502,"end":15711.687,"text":"跟文文說明在公使的問題我想因為這幾天大家都看到這個統計第一個是說其實並不是我們並不是排在全世界所有國家的第五因為其實它整個拿進去排名的國家的數字並不是用全世界所有的國家第二個是的確我們"},{"start":15713.407,"end":15741.166,"text":"我们之所以在数字上面会是这个成绩有一个蛮大的原因是因为我们的部分工时的比例比较低可是如果是全时工时比别的国家的全时比全时的话那整体来说我们的数字可能比邻近的亚洲国家都还要带来的低一点但我讲这个并不是说我们的工时就没有必要改善我觉得也还是有那刚刚有也有刚刚委员刚才讲的几个问题第一个问题确实有些部分的行业他目前他可能他整体的这个"},{"start":15742.366,"end":15767.936,"text":"這個出口的狀況比較好所以他需要加班所以他有缺工所以這也是為什麼我們其實現在我們也在近期的一些跨國勞動力的政策上面我們做出了一些精進或者一些多的一些開放這也是其中一個原因那第二個是我們其實也持續的在提高最低工資那最低工資工資跟工時之間的關係也是我們也希望減少一些可能相對比較低薪的勞工他因為低薪所以他就覺得我我必須"},{"start":15768.696,"end":15792.707,"text":"更大程度的加班才有辦法到一定的收入這也是把最低工資這10年不斷提高的重要的做法這是實際上面的做法那當然我說針對工時的問題我想我們也可以再做一些檢討在做法上面有沒有可以再更大力度的比方說我們在希望大家去簽更好的團體協約更照顧勞工"},{"start":15794.147,"end":15820.142,"text":"生活需求的團體學業的狀況下我們也願意來做但的確這個問題裡面裡面有些分是說統計的方式的形式也有方式實際作為的方式我們也都希望能夠更努力這樣子我希望就是勞動部就是照顧勞工勞工退休後的生活其實勞動部也是要去照顧所以我剛剛從幾個面向那希望說勞動部針對這個字體的這個部分應該要有更大的一個誘因好不好謝謝"},{"start":15822.664,"end":15832.992,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言這個我們請委員會可以發便當 官員們也都辛苦先便發可以吃的就先吃那接下來請林倩琦委員發言好謝謝主席我們請勞動部長 洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":15847.72,"end":15861.609,"text":"部長好我相信應該有不少的委員跟您討論過有關於國際勞動統計的警訊當然您這邊也有一些回應每一個委員有一些不同的解釋但是應該這幾年來除了去年的工時"},{"start":15866.312,"end":15880.401,"text":"今年公布的去年的這個總共時2030相較於過去我們在2010試圖的降到1999小時之後呢今年這個2030.4那相對還是比較高那您剛才雖然也有提到"},{"start":15882.162,"end":15901.192,"text":"我們第五名的這個成績就算不是全世界但是基本上還是所有被評鑑的這個國家那我們還是高居第五啦那亞洲第二但重點是我們是先進的經濟體但是公使的結構似乎還停留在一個高度仰賴加班的一個形式"},{"start":15901.892,"end":15914.706,"text":"所以這個其實我們當然整體來講是要做一個很大的調整但是這裡面您剛才其實也討論到業別製造業裡面我們這邊本席這邊有的資料是大概高達2125個小時"},{"start":15918.649,"end":15946.364,"text":"電子組件甚至到2,258小時這樣其實還是有一個結構性的警訊缺工的問題如果沒有被改善勞動參與率跟停滯率還有特休制度就沒有辦法反映在現代勞動的負荷所以企業習慣也是用加班來取代增聘所以其實整體的環境還是有需要做一個很大的調整的空間"},{"start":15947.384,"end":15976.049,"text":"所以本席今天要請教勞動部的是那目前的政策能不能改善這些結構性的問題比如說第一個勞動參與率的偏低我們要如何來提升呢台灣的勞動參與率長期大概在56到60%左右那麼低於日韓 歐盟跟美國那麼在當前企業的缺工情況下那我們似乎沒有辦法來提高薪資來吸引勞工回流"},{"start":15977.169,"end":16002.081,"text":"雖然近幾年我們有最低薪資的一個調整但是整體吸引勞工回流這個部分似乎不是太並沒有說非常的吸引人但是取代的我們就用現有的人力來加班支撐這是似乎是在勞動市場常有的一個狀況那本席這邊要請教"},{"start":16003.722,"end":16031.479,"text":"通常在產業的一個聘用裡面常常都是既有的勞工我們先加班我們再來考慮徵聘其實這樣一個現況是不是有機會做一個調整跟改變所以我想請教一下勞動部目前有沒有研議來提高中高齡或婦女參與的一個參與率那幾個例子像托育的友善工時或者是彈性工時的一個制度"},{"start":16032.539,"end":16056.297,"text":"或者是預防中高齡勞工職場歧視的一個專法或指引還有協助女性職癌回流的補助與企業的一個誘因第二個部分是你們有沒有可能訂出提高勞動參與率的具體目標由勞動部這邊來訂定我想這個是最基本能夠改善缺工降低工時的一個方式"},{"start":16057.418,"end":16080.405,"text":"我們這幾年試圖這幾乎每一年我們都是可能都居高不下那個排名居高不下那這對於整個勞動市場來講也不是太健康那我們是不是考慮一下怎麼樣來制度性的做一個調整跟改變那這個部分是不是勞動部可以先做一個回應跟委員說明現在委員在簡報上面的這三個做法這我們都在做"},{"start":16081.969,"end":16100.912,"text":"不管是脫與有三有沒有什麼樣子的短中長期的一個具體目標比如說本席常常聽到我們可能對於兒少或者是對於青年目前都很具體的一些專法跟方案但是中高齡常常在社會上就變成是一個中高齡有專法"},{"start":16101.593,"end":16127.389,"text":"OK那所以你們的這個部分的訂定有沒有實際去了解到他對於這個職場上中高齡被歧視的一個相對的一個比喻中高齡也有就業專法那也在就業專法之後其實現在中高齡的計畫也在實施也算是有成效其實今天也就法規上也提出一個比較實際的誘因所以也希望就是說中高齡的回療除了"},{"start":16128.129,"end":16157.312,"text":"被歧視以外呢那另外就是說在實際的一個支撐上也希望能夠透過法律來做一個保障關於就業歧視的問題我想法規上面大概都是有的就是怎麼樣來遏止歧視的問題那勞動部就我們要怎麼讓他能夠更更落實更普遍就法規有了但是在實際的現況下如何再去我們希望讓他推動更有成效這也是要必須透過計畫跟資源是那所以你們有這個提高勞動力參與的這樣本席所講的以上三種的一個具體目標嗎"},{"start":16158.132,"end":16181.545,"text":"其實這幾年中高齡的勞參率的目標是有在提高的但我們認為還可以再更加強所以是不是可以給本席很具體的你們在提高的這個部分是不是有每年的數據或做法然後跟一個檢視的指標好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琪委員發言接下來請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":16186.919,"end":16187.763,"text":"謝謝主席 紅部長有請有請紅部長"},{"start":16196.704,"end":16224.71,"text":"祐元好部長午安 辛苦了今天大部分都討論勞保的最終幾負責任那我看起來這個草野難得有很好的共識那我們就希望這法案的審查可以順利來做進行不過本期最近也在研究勞保條例我發現一個問題今天花一點點時間跟勞動部長來做一下討論現在目前我們的勞工保險條例這個什麼時候開始起算跟什麼時候停止是不是基本上都是靠僱主也就是申報單位主動申報之後來開始發生效力勞保的部分"},{"start":16225.603,"end":16254.305,"text":"是啊是嘛對不對好那問題來了就是說如果啊一個雇主跟他的勞工發生了一定的勞資糾紛然後就比如說惡意解雇那照理來講惡意解雇之後是不是大家都會去打比如說雇員關係存在之數嘛對不對那這個時間可長可短也不曉得會有多久但實務上來講我們如果現在以現行的勞保條例來處理的話也就是說我雇主認為我已經把他解雇了好不管這個過程法律是不是百分之百的這個合法可有沒有爭議反正我解雇我就辦了退保"},{"start":16254.705,"end":16281.922,"text":"好 那就來啦勞工認為說我是蒙受冤屈的我是一個不當解雇所以我要打雇用關係存在之訴但是中間啊你這個勞保被解掉萬一最後啊這個勞工打贏了這個雇用關係存在之訴表示這段是惡意解雇那請問這段時間勞保怎麼算跟委員說明第一個因為在勞工關係法裡面其實遇到像這樣爭議的話其實可以有這個假處分假處分的做法是可以存在著 對"},{"start":16283.308,"end":16297.988,"text":"現在是這樣子除非你去提甲組分而且可過或可不過很難確定嘛對不對現行的狀況你恐怕很難再去加保你被退保期間的保險所以你現在勞保條例裡面有講如果遇到我剛剛講這種狀況你可以打所謂的損害賠償責任"},{"start":16301.252,"end":16316.515,"text":"但問題是在這樣嘛這勞保的法律關係理論上它應該是它是社會保險嘛所以它應該是一個公法上的法定之債這樣子的一個概念可是你用你卻是用民事關係的這個僱傭跟損害賠償的邏輯去解決公法上的權利義務關係這不是有點奇怪嗎"},{"start":16318.134,"end":16336.811,"text":"不是 你了解我的意思嗎我知道你的意思但是也不見得是委員講這樣那問題就來了嘛就是說我如果今天勞工遇到這樣的狀況我要先走一個很漫長的過程去確認雇用關係是否存在然後確認存在之後我還要再花更多的時間跟成本去打這個勞保的賠償之數嘛對不對然後有可能"},{"start":16338.592,"end":16363.445,"text":"有可能是惡意倒閉等等的狀況雇主也賠不出來嘛所以繞了半天變成說勞工要花非常多的時間跟精力甚至是金錢然後不一定能夠討回他應有的公道所以本席認為勞保條例或有可以檢討之處針對勞保尤其是解雇的這一部分啊是應該做一些修法的調整嘛比如說我用道指起算而不是隨便用申報與否來做處理嘛部長認同這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":16365.965,"end":16380.201,"text":"可以請 這有點細節啦但沒有關係就是我們現在的災保法是採稻殖及生肖嘛主要是災保法裡面對年資的要求是沒有的只要有工作他就會有可能發生災"},{"start":16381.232,"end":16399.277,"text":"所以我們倒職職生肖在執行上是沒有問題的可是在勞保的部分他有非常多的給付是以保險年資作為起算比如說老年那老年這個東西就是說勞僱雙方之間有沒有倒職這件事情保險人並不知道"},{"start":16400.198,"end":16415.609,"text":"對 因為你有人力的有限嘛等等嘛所以你當然要走申報沒辦法 所以一定要申報所以如果說採道指及生效的話那麼他過了10年以後告訴我說我10年以前或20年以前他就道指了保險人其實是很難去查證的"},{"start":16416.109,"end":16444.62,"text":"那這兩個人做了就是這些在甚至有判決那如果這一部分的年制都要求社會保險來處理的話其實對財務的影響是非常大的我們今天提這個法案的修正案大體上來講就是針對我剛剛講的主要是我剛剛講的萬一有雇傭關係不存在存在或不存在的這樣一個爭議的時候這一段的勞保年制的空白期啊能不能對勞工更有保障那如果是朝這個方向的話請問勞保局有沒有什麼好的建議"},{"start":16445.14,"end":16474.34,"text":"那这个地方刚刚就提到那个劳动事件法里面所谓的假处分他们可以去处理这样的一个事情对那老公也可以因为我刚才讲我自己认为他有一个切入点说还是从争议的处理的角度因为如果你要做整体的制度上面就是说从申报制改成直接就是一个那个内容我们到时候申报就还可以讨论因为这影响的层面跟他整个去计算的逻辑就会"},{"start":16475.52,"end":16499.266,"text":"我覺得會有一些衝突但是如果比較可以講的事情說怎麼從爭議處理的邏輯可以減少勞工這邊需要的程序的負擔我認為可能是從因為委員剛才講的部分也是產生爭議的情境嘛所以這個情境就比較不是去推到說好像變成所有的人的制度上面都必須要去改變我覺得我們心態都開放一點我也開放那希望部長這邊也開放我覺得我們可以來討論"},{"start":16500.646,"end":16524.721,"text":"假設爭議發生的狀況的話怎麼樣跟勞工能夠跟他隊友更高我現在是擔心就是說變成說我勞方要提出很多的反正各種救濟嘛而且都要我主動提他其實每一個救濟都是成本嘛也都是壓力嘛我們當然希望勞資爭議可以解決對不對但是這些東西如果通通是放在勞工這邊我是覺得有點不公平或有改善之處我覺得做法上我們可以雙方大家在真的是我們可以討論一下"},{"start":16525.521,"end":16545.847,"text":"沒有問題好不好警部長跟勞保局這邊稍微做點功課也調一下過去的勞資糾紛的這個真空期是怎麼處理的有多少人用的甲組份好我們來針對這個東西再進行詳細的討論可以嗎謝謝好辛苦謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員發言鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接著請圖權吉委員發言"},{"start":16555.39,"end":16565.528,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請我們洪部長還有我們調評師黃司長有請洪部長推很好以及黃司長"},{"start":16566.84,"end":16585.777,"text":"好 部長那在今年7月22號我們立法院有三讀通過公務人員任用法第36條之一那其中有附帶決議全序部於三個月內三修公務人員留職挺薪辦法放寬公務人員申請"},{"start":16586.678,"end":16614.851,"text":"育嬰升價的留職挺薪試遊讓公部門提供更友善的育嬰環境那當然這些部分我看你看考試院全序部動作也很快在8月26號他就預告公務人員留職挺薪辦法第五條 第六條 第九條的修正草案那在10月9號考試院院會通過修正公務人員留職挺薪辦法然後請我們行政院同意"},{"start":16616.291,"end":16639.925,"text":"後發布實施這個辦法目前據我們了解已經由行政院人事行政總署報到行政院近日就會公告我們今天針對工人員留職停薪辦法修正它是因為因應我們目前社會少子化少子女化及高齡化的社會趨勢營造友善的職場"},{"start":16641.346,"end":16668.14,"text":"那請問一下部長那針對公務人員這部分他們已經開始在做那針對我們受僱勞工的育嬰留職停薪這部分我們勞動部有沒有準備有沒有版本跟文說明其實因為在這個薪工法裡面那育嬰留停其實一個很重要概念是因為這個雙親他其實有撫養權有撫養權"},{"start":16671.536,"end":16680.856,"text":"那是因为这个抚养权的这个义务那所以他会有这个运营流停推导出这个一个运营流停的概念这样子"},{"start":16681.687,"end":16703.999,"text":"那當然對於阿公阿嬤那帶小孩育孫的部分那這當然這個涉及的層面就更大那也包括怎麼去做這些撫養權的認定所以的確我們自己在思考是說如果今天確實假設有案例他的撫養權是有判給阿公阿嬤判給這個"},{"start":16705.8,"end":16735.079,"text":"爷爷奶奶的话是不是从这个角度来去思考这件事情而不是所有的这个阿公阿嬷都能够有所谓的育孙所以部长你也知道今年1月就有这个新闻报道那有一个实际照顾孙子女的老公他本身也有监护权可是后来他申请育婴留职停薪津贴的时候被劳保局驳回所以我们今天提出就是凸显"},{"start":16735.598,"end":16751.684,"text":"我們受雇勞工 照顧孫子女其實是沒有得到國家政策的支持那當然我們這個案子那個本黨的邱若豪委員跟本席已經提出了《性別平等工作法》的修正草案"},{"start":16752.524,"end":16780.618,"text":"修正育有孫子女得申請育嬰留職挺薪育嬰留職挺薪的部分那當然本席現在也進一步針對就業保險法來修正草案在孫子女三歲前得申請育嬰留職挺薪的津貼那剛剛部長有提到你說針對那個阿公阿嬤有實際照顧就像我剛剛講的不是啊 是他有撫養權"},{"start":16781.798,"end":16799.277,"text":"對 他有撫養權是法院判的撫養權對 那剛剛我講那個我們實際的狀況他已經法院有監護權可是他去申請這育嬰留職津貼可是勞保局是駁回的對 那因為這還涉及到修法因為勞保局駁回的原因是因為現在的法規就是這樣"},{"start":16800.598,"end":16820.1,"text":"那當然如果要往這個方向的話他也要涉及修法可是哪些範圍比較適當而且相關的配套該是什麼我想這部分的確要花一點時間來研議因為整個運營留庭的制度包括涉及到性供法也涉及到救保法我想我也很清楚只是這裡面可能就不一定是所有的範圍都打開就是說只要"},{"start":16821.101,"end":16840.348,"text":"阿公阿嬤去照顾孙子或孙女就能够适用因为很多他的实际的抚养权没有在阿公阿嬤这边部长其实针对这部分我知道你担心说整个开放下去影响的层面会不会很大"},{"start":16841.368,"end":16859.437,"text":"那可是其實針對部分我們也大概了解過其實我們推估我們60歲以上受雇勞工有孫子女我們預計大概有孫子女大概60歲大概60歲推估我們60歲以上那從我們到去年底"},{"start":16860.617,"end":16889.637,"text":"60岁以上受雇劳工的比例其实在所有比例里面整个比例里面它占不到4%只有3.9多%所以其实它的影响是非常有限所以整体来讲我们一般来讲要到有孙子孙女一般大概是到60岁但我还是跟文在补充的事情是说因为运营流停原本的运营流停原本一个概念它还是基于它这个抚养权的概念"},{"start":16890.617,"end":16909.629,"text":"那所以今天如果要談這個育孫的部分的育嬰留田的話他可能我們還是希望他可以在一個有撫養權的概念下面去做討論不只是說會不會錢不多或者是不只是這個問題而是他有一個他原本制度設計的邏輯"},{"start":16911.192,"end":16938.756,"text":"好 所以其實剛剛我們也有提一個重點其實主要是因應我們現在社會少子女化跟高齡化那現在其實你看公務人員任用法它已經修正表示我們社會上是真的有這個需求不然為什麼考試院跟行政院你看它整體的動作都很快那我們說如果公務人員針對這一部分它施行的效果很好"},{"start":16939.216,"end":16964.181,"text":"我是建議我們勞動部應該可以研議我朝這方面去研議我想我們確認一下因為就我知道好像是公務員這邊的預算他只有給假他沒有給津貼啊對我剛是講說對啊但是現在如果是從勞工的淤流亭的話那有假又有津貼有流亭又有津貼這是兩個法案啊我們第一個法案是說對可是我說公務員部分也沒有津貼吧我們印象中是沒有津貼對那是兩個"},{"start":16964.861,"end":16990.396,"text":"两个法案一个就是针对我们希望从公务人员的部分也能够延伸到我们劳工育孙留职停薪的部分当然我们针对津贴的部分我们是建议针对这一部分是不是可以从保险法这一部分来研议因为它整体来讲60岁以上的劳工其实占我们所有劳工其实只有三年多不到4%"},{"start":16991.376,"end":17020.317,"text":"我觉得相关的演绎还是希望他是要从这个抚养权尤其是法院认定的抚养权为核心从这个概念来去做相关权力的延伸跟演绎的讨论那因为这个大概就比较才比较符合运流停的概念运流停是从这个概念来发展出来那这部分因为有两个第一个就是我们希望针对我们育孙的部分留职停薪的部分能够推广到"},{"start":17020.857,"end":17035.434,"text":"我們阿公阿嬤能夠從我們的但這個一樣還是要有還是要有法院的撫養權才這個才能夠比較有利潤的基礎對 但是我說現在公務人員這個推廣很好是說育嬰留職停薪的部分"},{"start":17036.194,"end":17063.721,"text":"從工人員部分希望他做得很好的時候因應少子化跟高齡化希望能夠延伸到我們的勞工那針對津貼的部分當然我們下次提出我們希望主要真的是鼓勵希望針對年輕人現在因為少子化絕對是國安危機我們要因應更多的策略希望能夠鼓勵年輕人去多生小孩不然這個少子化已經是非常嚴重的國安危機"},{"start":17064.241,"end":17068.951,"text":"根本說明其實年輕人的確現在生小孩年輕生小孩以後更希望是自己帶"},{"start":17070.546,"end":17096.014,"text":"更希望是自己帶我想這個趨勢跟比例是看得清楚但是有些狀況是不允許對 但是我說他還是要看這個撫養權的概念對啦 我們盡量能夠放寬重點我們就是希望能夠解決少子化跟高年化這個問題們所因應的那所以我直接提出希望能夠來研議是不是怎麼樣子鼓勵年輕人多生小孩子那現在已經從公務人員做我們希望能夠擴大到勞工所以才從"},{"start":17096.735,"end":17115.657,"text":"從勞動部這邊來我認為我們可以在整體運流停制度上面來去思考但是還是是剛才講說是這個這個撫養權的概念要以這個為出發點跟核心對這個沒有辦法一下子就沒有耕著的地方就會有時候就像制度的穩定性就會比較多的影響"},{"start":17116.498,"end":17137.893,"text":"對 這個我們可以納入整體來討論但是我們的目標就是希望針對少子化部分能延應更多的策略能夠鼓勵年輕人多生小孩當然 少子化各部會都要面對因為高齡化希望讓阿公阿嬤能夠來照顧也減輕我們年輕新手父母的負擔是 謝謝好 那接下來請我們勞保司司長跟勞保局局長"},{"start":17141.397,"end":17162.714,"text":"好 那今天 當然我們今天主要針對就業服務法跟勞工保險條例那我們也知道其實這裡面兩個重點今天就是我們希望修法 明定政府負最後支付的責任那我剛剛也聽部長針對這一部分部長勞動部這邊也是持開放的態度"},{"start":17165.396,"end":17183.394,"text":"那还有我们另外一个就是拨补法治化那我听了以后好像部长对于拨补法治化这一部分也没有太大的问题好像是对于要设定金额部长好像认为这一部分比较有疑义设定固定金额"},{"start":17184.535,"end":17206.405,"text":"可能就会跟我们的财政纪律法的这个会有汉格所以我们比较顾虑的是这一点就是因为108年有一个财政纪律法第七条规定就是建议不与民定政府每年拨补金额避免我们预算僵化或者会限制我们财政运用的能力是"},{"start":17207.685,"end":17230.555,"text":"這一部分當然我們現在據我們了解其實這個社會保險基金它有它的特殊性我們也看到其實農保健保它都有固定經費的額度像農保主管機關審核撥補然後醫生請中央予以補助健保的部分當然它是"},{"start":17231.912,"end":17247.259,"text":"以每年度保險經費扣除法定收入後36%的部分由主管機關編列預算撥補資也就是說其實農保跟健保它都有固定經費額度的撥補條例那這都是在"},{"start":17248.8,"end":17268.245,"text":"那个财政纪律法之前对财政纪律法过后对基本上大家对财政纪律的要求就不太允许固定金额入法所以也就是说我们财政纪律法是108年公布嘛是那我的意思是说所以为什么他公布以后他对农保健保他没有特别的"},{"start":17269.125,"end":17297.451,"text":"提出說明或者去限制他但是在他公布之後後面的法規如果要這樣修訂的話那就會跟他漢格了對 那我們意思是說其實社會保險基金真的是有它的特殊性那我們也看106年其實蔡英文總統她有提出這個願版針對我們這個修正條文有提出她的願版可是我現在還沒有看到我們賴清德總統我們勞動部這邊有提出相關的版本"},{"start":17298.308,"end":17307.584,"text":"我想跟委員說明尤其是在勞保條例的第6669條我想朝野委員都有提出版本那我們很願意開放正向的態度來參與委員會裡面審議的討論"},{"start":17311.567,"end":17328.994,"text":"對 我是希望部長還是針對這一部分因為我們一直認為社會保險它真的是有它的特殊性那之前農保健保它會去編列表示真的有它的需求當然也因應108年財政紀律法的關係那我是認為這一部分"},{"start":17330.154,"end":17350.194,"text":"居然以前連106年蔡英文總統都有提出版本她也是在108年之前對 我是意思說表示她有她的需求如果說這個有她討論的空間我還是建議說我們還是要提出版本不然沒有提出版本還是不行我們會在審議的時候把我們的看法很清楚的來跟委員們討論"},{"start":17351.215,"end":17366.464,"text":"那包括委員們目前條文的一些修正的意見或者我們各個條文的相關的評估我們也會讓委員知道對 因為我意思說我們到現在還沒有看到辦法還是希望勞動部盡快來提出好 謝謝謝謝圖權級委員發言接下來請葉元之委員發言主委好 請到部長 謝謝請洪部長"},{"start":17388.257,"end":17410.405,"text":"月文完不斷先問一下那個有關於勞保的議題我們現在針對身心障礙者如果要申請老年給付的話大概要幾歲以後開始可以都是一樣跟一般的人一樣都是60歲對不對對這是規定在勞工已經到了64歲了法定年齡"},{"start":17411.987,"end":17436.375,"text":"這是規定在勞工保險法第58條裡面那我希望說那個勞動部可以考慮一個狀況因為根據很多研究指示身心障礙者他們老化的會比較早會提早老化然後再來就是他們的平均餘命大概也會比一般人短一點所以能不能將身心障礙者的老年給付提前"},{"start":17437.423,"end":17450.528,"text":"好像我是有一個提案啊一個修正案就是希望能夠提早到50歲假設他50歲離職退保的話可以來申請老年給付那不知道那個部長能不能來演繹一下"},{"start":17452.233,"end":17475.492,"text":"跟委員報告 身障者的照顧我們覺得不只是社會保險他還是要從整體的社會的福利啊我知道啦 不用 我現在是講這個嘛我只是講這個 你針對這個問題回答就好了 好不好好 那在國際趨勢上對身障者也跟一般人的一樣因為我們現在的醫療的進步嘛他還是朝著延緩退休"},{"start":17477.833,"end":17501.448,"text":"沒有我沒有說那個要提早退休啊我是說申請老年給付就如果說他已經沒有工作了然後現在離職了退保了那要申請老年給付能不能提早我的議題在這邊意思是一樣啊就是說他要這跟他要不要退休沒有關係有些人他想要晚退就晚退嘛我現在是針對有一些他已經離職退保的人啊"},{"start":17503.797,"end":17519.543,"text":"那意思就是說如果對於這些身障者讓他提早來領第一個其實我們在老年年金的機制裡面已經有讓他可以提早五年領減額年金提早五年是幾歲可以領減額年金我這邊提案是50歲嘛"},{"start":17527.426,"end":17549.011,"text":"你那個今天你研議一下啦好不好那如果再讓他提早的話他可能勞保的年資會很短而且他不能參加國保這個他們自己會做出對他們來說最有利的判斷嘛當然我們盡量站在他們的角度去規劃嘛但是我現在是針對一些比較我們如果法規定的很嚴的話"},{"start":17550.091,"end":17564.671,"text":"那有些特殊案例就會被法規綁死嘛我現在是說考量到一些特殊狀況稍微鬆綁嘛 只是這樣而已那你們勞動部要做的東西我們都沒有意見啊 都是支持的啊但是我們針對身障的其實有失能年輕了"},{"start":17565.952,"end":17593.471,"text":"這不一樣的東西啦 不是一直跟我扯別的好先這樣囉 反正我先把這個議題先拋出來你們研究一下第二個 文這不是扯啦 這真的是我們沒有沒有 我現在在講A 我們的同仁還是我現在在講A 然後就跟我說你有BCD那我就沒有辦法聚焦 我們就沒辦法聚焦了嘛還是會有一個整個基金的思考啦我就沒辦法聚焦了啦 先針對這個問題啦我認為這不是扯啦那就沒有聚焦在這個議題裡面嘛好第二個啦 我跟部長問一下"},{"start":17595.703,"end":17624.059,"text":"央行現在又說要增加那個基本工資那我有一些央行老總部央行央行我是說央行現在又呼籲要提高基本工資然後那我現在是想請教一下我有問過一些有一些人資給我一些建議就是說為什麼我們提高基本工資但是絕大多數的勞工啊他們薪資是沒有跟著成長主要原因是因為大家不是領基本薪資"},{"start":17625.086,"end":17628.466,"text":"那現在基本薪資提高當然對本"},{"start":17629.299,"end":17656.305,"text":"假設對本國的勞工他是領基本薪資的當然是有受惠但絕大多數領基本薪資的是外勞那所以只要是基本薪資 我也並不是大部分是本勞外勞也有嘛外勞也有嘛 但並不是他們是絕大多數好沒關係就是外勞有一些公司裡面他們很多是比如說都是外勞為主嘛那就是在他們公司裡面就是外勞提高嘛那我要講的是說你們有沒有研究過就是讓"},{"start":17657.345,"end":17670.815,"text":"本勞跟外勞的基本薪資可以脫鉤這個議題我講說人資的建議是為什麼你知道嗎因為有一些企業喔他們每一年的薪資的預算調高的預算其實都是固定的"},{"start":17671.331,"end":17688.938,"text":"那假設那家公司他是以外就是很多作業員或什麼是以外勞為主的話那基本工資一提高他必須要支付就是外勞的薪資提高的的那些薪資成本嘛所以相對來說他就壓縮了他幫本國勞工就是不是領基本薪資的本國勞工加薪的機會"},{"start":17690.138,"end":17710.317,"text":"这个是有些人的呼吁那当然我知道劳动部一定有考量因为这个议题也不是新的议题大家讨论非常久叶委员讲这比较是从公司跟资方的角度但是你如果让本劳跟外劳的最低工资脱钩的时候等于也让资方有更多其实可能更"},{"start":17711.258,"end":17732.971,"text":"更低成本的勞工可以使用的時候這其實對於本勞的就業機會對我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道像這個其實有一些配套都是可以解決嗎舉舉來講你也可以例如說我們之前講的嘛你可以提高就安定基金就安定費啊就是說讓他聘外勞的成本沒有沒有想像中的這麼低"},{"start":17733.55,"end":17763.207,"text":"然後讓他覺得因為本勞那如果你拉高救援跟安定費那為什麼不乾脆就讓因為你當然你拉高的成本你讓他在這邊減少成本然後在救援跟安定費再增加成本你不一定要完全一樣不是你錢的部分不一定要完全一樣可是那個公司他會考量啊我今天也許聘本勞貴一點點但是本勞至少在語言文化適應力上面會比較好所以成本比較高他還是願意聘本勞啊"},{"start":17764.13,"end":17780.958,"text":"所以我覺得你可以想想看因為這個是一個很多人之的建議啦就是說因為我們實施就是那個本國勞工跟外籍就是外籍勞工的那個薪資沒有不脫鉤已經很長一段時間了我覺得是可以研究一下看看怎麼做"},{"start":17782.819,"end":17804.082,"text":"怎麼做一直有這個聲音啦那當然這聲音有很多他其實從企業的角度他會講到這樣的事情可是當然如果從一個保障勞動就業的角度來說的話我們的確問題是要非常審慎問題是你這樣一直講那企業從他的角度他就是不這樣做啊除非你有別的方法"},{"start":17804.762,"end":17832.188,"text":"要他就是同時間幫不是領基本工資的人加薪否則他就是這樣做啊你也沒有什麼強制力叫他不這麼做最低工資調高的目的主要還是在出還是在去面對這個邊際勞工他可能在整體加薪上面會比較困難所以我們從過去從大概兩萬塊左右現在加到了我們都支持基本工資調升我沒有說不要我沒有說不要我現在講的是本國跟外勞的脫鉤這件事情"},{"start":17832.708,"end":17845.941,"text":"就是如果有脫鉤的話可以幫助一些不是領基本工資的勞工也有機會可以加薪因為企業加薪的那個預算就是這麼多我的意思是這樣我認為這議題真的要比較審慎尤其是從也許要從勞動權益的角度來看真的要比較審慎謝謝葉元芝委員發言請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17867.852,"end":17870.634,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長請洪部長部長我們今天委員會就是審議勞保條例跟就業服務法的修正草案的大體詢答"},{"start":17888.891,"end":17914.158,"text":"那我看是這樣子就是在勞保條例的修正當中不分黨派的委員大概就政府撥補成為勞保基金的財源跟勞保的財務由政府負擔最終給負責任是大家很有共識比較遺憾的是"},{"start":17917.438,"end":17938.673,"text":"各政黨的委員有共識 可是看起來是行政立法沒有共識啊我從上一個會期就要求勞動部必須要就這兩個相關的規定提出版本可是我看你們也不提啊"},{"start":17940.83,"end":17968.868,"text":"我們很願意在審議的時候我們一起來討論部長你知道審議的時候支持跟提版本的差異嗎是你說說看當然我想我們其實對這個事件審議我們還是是很開放的意見開放喔民進黨長期都講說國家在 勞保不會倒"},{"start":17969.841,"end":17995.06,"text":"可是卻不願意讓他入法安定全國勞工的我們沒有不願意 我們是同意的那你們假如同意就是行政怠惰啦你們假如同意就是行政怠惰我在上一個會期就跟部長要求過兩次希望執政團隊可以表態"},{"start":17997.931,"end":18016.971,"text":"勞保是超過一千萬人口啊等於台灣兩個人就有一個人是投勞保的那埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃"},{"start":18018.786,"end":18047.703,"text":"那我就說只要願意就是行政帶墮嘛我們是很清楚我們是我們其實現在在這部分這本來就是我們的政策部長我就說我就說字體版本是一種表態審議的時候贊成是一種附和特別是以行政機關來講委員之間啊有的時候在審議的時候表示贊同是因為委員不是不是"},{"start":18048.786,"end":18071.237,"text":"委員要負責看的法案太多 所以我沒有注意到這一塊那某一個委員提出了 我表示贊同那你們對於自己主管的業務的法律一方面表示贊同 一方面覺得應該做 另外一方面不提版本"},{"start":18072.301,"end":18082.978,"text":"不提版本就是到時候通過的條文就是委員版本並不是民進黨執政的行政院勞動部提的版本"},{"start":18084.411,"end":18109.456,"text":"我這樣講有沒有道理跟委員說我們在審議的時候我想我們會對版本的內容包括是文字上面我們會提出我們很明確的意見文字上面我還真的不知道你能就這幾個字我不知道你能怎麼你是不是可以把給付責任改成支付責任還是怎麼樣要不然大的概念大的概念你已經放棄了"},{"start":18110.916,"end":18128.173,"text":"你難道要到委員會來就很細的文字問題來做溝通這個你覺得是勞動部應該要做的我不是說文字不能修正我只是說文字的修正是知為末節的東西"},{"start":18131.038,"end":18140.481,"text":"站在主管全國勞工權益 保障權益勞工政策的勞動部 這個沒有版本本席對於執政黨非常的失望因為我已經上一屆不談 這一屆包括部長來接部長以後 我大概就提醒了三次"},{"start":18155.356,"end":18182.097,"text":"因為這個是草野大家不要說草野委員這個是全國人民共同的期盼為什麼呢因為我們的經濟奇蹟來自勞工的努力可是國家因為勞保的設計讓退休的勞工的生活一直處在很不安定性的一個狀況"},{"start":18184.779,"end":18210.141,"text":"執政團隊連做這樣子的宣示都不願意我其實還蠻絕望的 部長我說真的特別是這個會期 已經那麼多委員的版本進來了你們不願意 那你們覺得說討論法案的時候 只要你們有參與意見只要你們表示贊同 就是你們的立場那要這個行政團隊幹嘛"},{"start":18214.434,"end":18243.617,"text":"不然我這樣說有沒有道理還是你還是覺得說可以沒有版本然後作為主管機關的勞動部對於這麼重要的一個法案可以沒有版本然後就討論的時候就說 欸 贊同楊耀委員的提案跟委員說明 其實在因為這個議題跟這個議案其實也涉及到很多在行政院裡面很多的單位"},{"start":18244.898,"end":18273.233,"text":"尤其也是涉及到包括財主單位那喔喔 部長你是勞動部的部長那勞工保險條例由衛王委員會審議所以你就提你的版本就可以了至於後續的後續的行政團隊之間要法案過了並不是你不提版本法案就不過啊民進黨是少數黨啊"},{"start":18276.699,"end":18290.326,"text":"不一定有 這樣條文是什麼意思我們對條文是有想法的然後我們也贊成這個概念有想法沒有做法我們有想法的 然後我們也有相關的其實我們在這裡面的評估的眼裡那我們在審議的時候我們會很清楚表達我們的看法還是你現在要表達看看你現在想想看 反正後面也沒有委員啦我耽誤稍微一點時間沒關係啊"},{"start":18301.528,"end":18326.87,"text":"你現在講講看委員在大的方向上當然我們是同意包括撥補的入法包括最終責任這幾個入法的那裡面當然也會當然我們認為其實應該要對檢討的時間點那檢討的時間區段那我們也會有一些看法所以那你們為什麼不提版本呢我這樣子講啊保定政府撥補其實是"},{"start":18330.267,"end":18359.097,"text":"各黨派的委員在幫你們做後續的補救因為你們已經坐在前面了只是把他入法由政府負擔最終己負責任也是民進黨政府先喊出國家債勞保不會倒我不知道你們為什麼這樣子的法案推不出來啊我覺得太不負責任了"},{"start":18360.492,"end":18369.739,"text":"我們並不是不負責任 我們很願意在這個事情上面負起對勞保該負的責任我想行政團隊態度是清楚的我在這裡14年了我不清楚啊我對你們的態度我還真的不清楚啊我連要求你們提個版本你們都提不出來"},{"start":18388.602,"end":18417.036,"text":"部長你有沒有知道這個應用是什麼這個影響就是到最後是跨黨派的委員照顧體現了照顧全國勞工的決心可是執政團隊對這件事情並不在意我們沒有不在意不是你們在意我們如果不在意我們如果不在意不會逐年的都去跟行政院爭取越來越多的撥補的金額這當然就是我們非常在意這件事情"},{"start":18418.183,"end":18446.024,"text":"不是 我現在在跟你討論法案我是說你一直在撥補嘛所以我們提案讓你的撥補有更明確的法源嘛你自己倒是不願意懂我的意思嗎不是啊我不知道你搖頭的意思是什麼啦不過呢就是從具體的事項來看"},{"start":18447.898,"end":18461.446,"text":"你們就是不願意啦你們只要願意 我不相信這麼簡單的條文你們擬不出來而且不是說很短的時間要你們擬出來不然我其實現在是覺得還蠻失望的啦就是說"},{"start":18472.967,"end":18493.539,"text":"民進黨在國會弱勢已經一年多了你們難道沒有想到說你們縱使沒有版本也會有跨黨派的不要說在野黨的委員像我執政黨的委員我也要提出來啊為什麼 因為每天都在討論勞保什麼時候要倒嘛"},{"start":18495.151,"end":18502.593,"text":"最少最終 最終己負責任必須要入法 這個是最簡單這個是簡單 再簡單不過的事情嘛這樣說不出來啊我還是要提醒藉由一個最新的民調來提醒部長啊就是說普發現金啊"},{"start":18520.427,"end":18541.243,"text":"行政院把超徵的稅款拿來普發現金啦台灣的民意調查37%的人認為是立法院給的只有22%覺得是行政院給的部長 很多東西不是說我們自己想自己對就是結論啦"},{"start":18552.369,"end":18573.103,"text":"我不知道這樣說下去會太久沒 我也問一下好了啦只有拖到時間啦我們在剛才講的普發現金的國安任性特別條例的特別預算裡面有5400多億 勞保基金的撥補只有100億啊"},{"start":18575.745,"end":18588.374,"text":"部長在分配這個超徵收稅款的時候我就有要求部長必須要去大力爭取結果你爭取不到兩趴其實我們是在公務預算有爭取一千二不是一千二不夠嘛不是說一千二萬落去勞保就一刀永逸嘛不是嘛"},{"start":18602.27,"end":18627.453,"text":"那為什麼有多出來的稅收你沒有能力去跟行政院講要多撥一點好 那你們不撥你們就自己想說我做一個大膽的假設假如說一開始行政院就把這五千多億全部撥補勞保跟健保在野黨不敢反對"},{"start":18629.382,"end":18657.668,"text":"我剛剛講過了 健保是全民共享啊老保 台灣兩個人裡面就有一個是老保人口可是你們不做這樣子的處理然後繞了一大圈還是按照在野黨的想法普發現金沒關係沒關係 要結束了這個 我還是提醒部長"},{"start":18659.246,"end":18683.843,"text":"在國會沒有過半是已經一年半的事情了所以很多政策在推動就是必須要合法、合理、合情為什麼我說特別預算假如撥給勞保大家不會有意見"},{"start":18685.899,"end":18711.862,"text":"因為第一個原因是因為稅收本身就是財富的重新分配分配給比較弱勢的勞工沒有人敢反對第二個就是經濟好才會稅收多稅收多才會有多餘的稅金可以分配"},{"start":18714.797,"end":18741.103,"text":"經濟的創造者是勞工就這兩個這麼簡單的理由那你們還一直活在全面執政的時代裡面我有很多事情我也沒有辦法謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝楊耀委員發言本日會議詢答全部結束先做以下決議"},{"start":18743.769,"end":18772.429,"text":"一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等30案以及就業服務法部分條文修正草案等12案另則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"165498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab4f435b7dbe1dd15cbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c47474a0a456827cbec75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:44:26 - 09:54:58","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:44:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:54:58+08:00","duration":632,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.06846875,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.992218750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.10534375,"end":93.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.98659375000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.61659375,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.33784375,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.83534375,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.28659375000001,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.44096875,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":158.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.36471875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.98909375000002,"end":162.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":175.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.36659375000002,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.42721875,"end":197.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.33346875,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.43471875,"end":197.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.48534375,"end":224.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.77221875,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.60846875000004,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.85284375000003,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.02159375,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.14346875,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.32034375,"end":284.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.43409375000005,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.37471875,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.35346875,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.92909375,"end":302.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.93721875,"end":303.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.86534375,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.82721875000004,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.50534375,"end":367.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.85534375000003,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.07784375,"end":376.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.22971875,"end":375.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.37284375,"end":377.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.42346875000004,"end":380.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.19534375,"end":383.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.91221875,"end":389.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.02096875,"end":396.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.37846875,"end":398.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.43284375,"en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部長早 部長勞保改革大概是政府無法迴避的責任那我們都清楚改革的方向大概就是一個多角少嶺這政府撥補三管齊下那我們今天排審的這個勞保條例就是要將政府撥補還有最終責任"},{"start":29.003,"end":43.779,"text":"这个责任的入法那三党的立委都有共识都有提案那刚刚您国情委员在做提案说明的时候也讲到当年您也参加联署了所以这个法案是三党大家都有共识在这一届的国会非常的难得"},{"start":44.46,"end":61.918,"text":"那雖然行政院一直沒有版本出來但部長您在這裡也有講過說如果您保持開放態度如果立法院通過了這樣的法案你會就是依法履行但我必須要說今天的修法是勞保改革中其實是比較容易的"},{"start":62.518,"end":88.959,"text":"因為勞保要永續不能只是靠撥補還需要這個開源節流那開源就是多角那節流就是這個少領啊但部長您自己講過說沒有要砍幾戶的計畫也就是說節流的部分您是把它保留了就是排除在改革的方案之外那我就請教部長那開源的部分勞動部有規劃要提高保費和投保薪資上限嗎"},{"start":91.521,"end":114.472,"text":"跟文說明吼那其實對於勞保的財務的問題當然從政府的角度我們一直非常非常的關注這也是為什麼這幾年下來其實行政院不斷的願意從這個這個整體的公務預算的水庫裡面那來做這個撥補的動作"},{"start":116.713,"end":132.116,"text":"留在波普這個階段第二個是其實我們在我們在基金的投資上面我想這幾年的效益也是非常好的那這也都為我們整體基金的水位提供很重要的活水所以謝謝你我了解"},{"start":133.618,"end":157.699,"text":"這個勞保改革不是說一個部會可以撐得起來因為大家都講提到數字了嘛 攸關這個千萬勞工的生活保障的改革那其實是要請總統勇於承擔的 為什麼呢因為藍綠白三位總統候選人他們在競選的時候都提出了要做勞保改革的國事論壇喔那當選後應該要做的 那我想請問部長賴總統有要召開這個勞保改革的國事會議嗎"},{"start":159.42,"end":174.727,"text":"你曉得嗎我想其實對於他有要召開這個會議我想的確現在對於整體勞保的財務上面的一些社會的討論我們都持續在收集所以剛剛在講到我應該講到說可能是要多繳或者是少領但這都會比較多"},{"start":178.43,"end":190.879,"text":"那總統上任到今天他有向勞動部提起說要召開相關的這個國事會議嗎因為這個在競選的時候三黨的候選人都總統的候選人都提出來了那他要沒有要這樣做"},{"start":191.459,"end":212.287,"text":"我們目前就是持續我們就是目前在持續在收集各界對勞保的意見就是說我還是要請您提醒總統任期過了一半一年半總統要趕快趕緊召開這個勞改國序會議因為否則勞保基金之前是2028年破產那今天有一些數字這也不清反正就是近年嘛什麼2031這個會破產那這個對"},{"start":217.609,"end":237.074,"text":"賴總統想要這個尋求連任難道也不是一個危機嗎部長我要請教你我們修法讓80歲的長者面80量表就可以聘請外籍看護那勞動部當時說我們80歲以上的人口有91萬其中健康人口有53萬假設只有三成的健康者要提出申請也會產生16萬名的這個看護家庭看護的需求"},{"start":240.495,"end":254.723,"text":"那加上每年自然增加的一萬所以當時您估算的是有十幾萬可能是七萬左右的這個缺口那現在賴總統啊或當時那個部長您估的跟實際上差很大您估了一二十萬當時講的好像天天要崩落"},{"start":256.264,"end":280.735,"text":"結果到現在好像8000多個申請你還才核准兩三千個那我要講的是賴總統現在就給你功課了他要開放12歲以下一孩家庭申請外籍包容請問部長我國12歲以下一孩家庭全國大概有幾戶目前可能數據在補我們數據在補 對所以總統講的你都沒有去算"},{"start":281.723,"end":302.202,"text":"但我們現在在評估中 可是目前那大概幾成 他先算母數 我手邊大概也有啦請問勞動部估計大概有幾成就像你當時這樣估算80歲以上長者那你覺得符合這個一孩家庭的這樣的家庭家戶你認為有幾成的會申請會產生多少缺口呢"},{"start":303.107,"end":318.213,"text":"現在就是在評估中還在算 總統講話你都這樣放的 他回答很快來 部長 家庭康護工有22萬人家庭幫庸只有2000人 是100倍之差喔如果人數比較多的康護會缺工"},{"start":319.273,"end":339.828,"text":"那稀少的邦庸不是更嚴重嗎這是更嚴重 但這就是賴總統的政策 他公開講了所以本席有個建議 等一下還是要請你補數字你不如先從真正有需要的家庭開放 例如遲緩兒的家庭我國的遲緩兒通報數字不斷的上升每年大概有4萬人"},{"start":341.849,"end":365.604,"text":"那因為這些家庭的爸爸媽媽都需要多陪伴他帶他去找的他需要有人來讓他放手讓他去協助他的這個家務勞動那如果是以家庭為單位4萬人應該會比4萬還少所以如果總統真的要開放12歲一孩的家庭能夠申請外籍邦傭的話是否從這些類似這個吃緩兒家庭開始 您贊同嗎"},{"start":366.505,"end":388.61,"text":"跟委員說明其實行政院也有指示那可能針對多元的家庭的狀況都希望可以納入評估有數字了嗎現在就在評估中但是我剛才說按照行政院的指示多元家庭的需求也應該放進來"},{"start":389.67,"end":403.801,"text":"我都沒有問過你們沒有數字在手上就承諾啦12歲一孩的家庭要不是這樣子的我們現在是在我們現在是在整體的評估之中但是你要接手啊"},{"start":405.862,"end":423.83,"text":"原來你們不知道我有數字我也先保留現在法律有規定部長這個職缺薪資沒有達4萬的時候不可以徵才的時候不可以寫免疫薪水不可以寫免疫但這幾年來整體薪水有成長所以去年勞動部有說今天要修法把這個4萬改成5萬"},{"start":425.251,"end":439.579,"text":"當然這有助於企業的競爭力跟這個爭取人才嘛但今年都快過了你有提出修法嗎還沒有吧還沒有提出來嘛跟委員說明我們現在一直持續在研議就是要把原本的4萬拉高到5萬或者是"},{"start":440.64,"end":457.423,"text":"或者是用一個最低工資的倍數啦因為最低工資也一直在提高所以也有一些建議是說可以提高變成是一個最低工資的固定某個倍數那會隨著最低工資的調漲那這個薪資透明化的這個"},{"start":458.924,"end":474.156,"text":"這個金額也可以提高因為有承諾說要提高五萬那你自己要用什麼方法能夠符合實際的我們現在當然在做這些法案的研議啊那我想我們也希望盡快在一段時間研議我們會趕快提出來媒體的報告報道說薪資揭露的規定上路以來有受理440件的檢舉喔只開罰了55件開罰率很低"},{"start":479.46,"end":502.509,"text":"所以很多勞工都說這個中原歧視上面寫免疫結果面試時開的薪水卻低於4萬請問部長這個要如何舉證你要處理如何處理讓企業真的落實你既然有法啦我想如果企業在4萬如果目前企業在4萬以下寫免疫的話這當然就是違反了薪資透明化的這個做法那這個相關的市政其實來做檢舉應該就是會被開罰的為什麼440件檢舉只有55件開罰呢"},{"start":509.263,"end":528.253,"text":"我們其實需要的是要提出具體的事證那目前我們的數字上面看起來你又煩那你怎麼提出事證是面試的時候要帶錄音機嗎不是面試帶錄音機可能是他相關的這個徵才的文件廣告或者是相關的欄位其實應該都會看到比方說他是怎麼樣來寫的"},{"start":530.677,"end":559.44,"text":"好部長我今天覺得有件事還是嚴重賴總統公開說他要開放全國12歲以下一孩家庭有一個孩子12歲以下就要開放這個外籍幫傭但是他不知道數字ok的日理萬機但是我沒有想到部長你接下來你有聽到你現在還沒有我們一直密切在評估之中你有數字了你剛剛說因為我手邊現在沒有數字那你的部署都沒有數字嗎現在我們手邊沒有因為我們是在評估中對"},{"start":561.588,"end":573.657,"text":"現在我們在評估中 現在官方的數字是沒有啦但是各種研究 很多報告資料 部長因為很多研究有去做 學術研究200萬戶啦 200萬戶啊 那你怎麼接受"},{"start":577.318,"end":594.848,"text":"但也並不是兩百萬戶都有這個需求確實有一些家庭有表達他有這樣的需求但也並不是所有的家庭都有這樣的需求我現在是三個月巴士量表是三個月的時間其實現在有一萬了"},{"start":607.563,"end":628.93,"text":"三個月多出一萬如果按照這個數字的話一年是會有增加四萬那現在又多一個問題嘛就是說這個估算對一年可能會增加四萬四萬都確實比過去的這個增加的數字來的多啊那請你再估算一下好好再評估總統發出對全國人民發出的承諾謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab60dd4be807d70874bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c474f91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:31:41 - 09:44:20","影片長度":"00:12:39","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:31:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:44:20+08:00","duration":759,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.864718750000002,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.91409375,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.85909375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.656593750000006,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.66846875,"end":85.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.02596875,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.62471875,"end":100.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.32721875,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":109.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.10471875,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.05534375000002,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.54784375,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.33409375000002,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.12409375000001,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.31846875000002,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.73596875,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.57034375,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.58721875,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.00909375,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.80159375000002,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.72284375,"end":258.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.07909375,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.14159375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.22534375000004,"end":275.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.54471875,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.71346875,"end":276.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.02971875000003,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.16846875000005,"end":288.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.25159375000004,"end":294.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.90971875,"end":290.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.51659375,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.05534375,"end":303.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.69159375000004,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.70409375,"end":311.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.85159375,"end":335.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.39659375,"end":339.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.21409375,"end":346.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.67721875,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.49034375,"end":380.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.66346875000005,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.22784375000003,"end":463.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.72471875,"end":422.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.40159375,"end":491.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.10596875000005,"end":520.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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部長早我這次修就業服務法的第24條就是要把未成年人正式拉出來了明明白白的列為就業促進對象的其中一款這題我們從上個會議就談到現在我過去還在民間的時候就講過雖然第10款其他對象本來就是要增補立法所尚未窮盡到"},{"start":46.727,"end":76.031,"text":"到的一個新的需求對族群可是未成年人的就業需求不能夠用局限在定義在被塞在其他對象裡面過去你們用韓式公告把15歲到18歲未升學未就業的少年塞到其他對象可是這個不夠為什麼先沒有辦法涵蓋到自立生活逆境少年司法少年甚至弱勢家庭那中低收入戶的家庭裡面他們必須要靠"},{"start":76.571,"end":100.767,"text":"打工来度日然后又想要脱困的孩子所以我讲过很多次这群孩子事实上是儿童权利公约点名要国家优先保护的对象不是你的被助人所以请问部长现行的卫生学未就业的定义根本就完全无法涵盖真正有就业需求的弱势禁欲的少年你认不认同"},{"start":102.672,"end":119.45,"text":"委員其實一直很關心這些其實特殊的處遇然後也是高風險的少年那我想確實因為在我們舊法第24條主要在第一項在處理的主要是針對"},{"start":120.791,"end":147.036,"text":"就業的弱勢所以我們可以來評估一下那現在委員在提的這些比較高風險的包括司法少年 副寫少年 脆弱家庭等等他們在就業上面的狀況那當然如果這個符合大家認知的這個就業弱勢的狀況當然我覺得我們可以來評估部長因為在法規上我們當然沒有辦法窮盡把它寫到這麼完整說智利少年"},{"start":148.584,"end":167.118,"text":"怕掛一肉萬的狀態所以還是一直到位依照兒權公約的精神直接甄列未成年最清楚最合適那未成年各種更複雜的就業需求跟勞動權益都能夠被看見這是我的版本裡面特別去提的為什麼要這樣提呢"},{"start":167.698,"end":184.757,"text":"部長在就業扶法我新增了26條之一要對15到24歲的青少年依聯合國的標準給予特別的支持你看近三年的因加保未加保的職災的給付資料竟然有未滿15歲在營建工地"},{"start":185.237,"end":209.637,"text":"申請職災給付這根本不能工作的孩子的年齡竟然在工地上出事還有製造業工地的失能甚至還有兩例的死亡發生在這麼年輕的孩子的身上真的讓人家覺得心痛部長 這些只是被看見的那些沒有通報的到底有多少甚至他們就沒有來申報那你認為這底下到底還有多少黑數你怎麼看 你打算怎麼解決"},{"start":213.989,"end":242.495,"text":"跟委員報告現在的資料裡面我們從那個那個災保那邊的數字確實都有掌握一些目前不管是我們這個未滿18歲的兒少他們在不管在工作場所裡面的一些失能或傷害甚至剛剛委員提到的這些死亡人數那其實最近年我們也是對這部分加強在做一些勞檢跟宣導那他現在的牽能率也是逐年在下降當中我們會持續來努力"},{"start":243.769,"end":267.771,"text":"因为我认为靠劳检补破网根本就是来不及了如果是少年真的他有急迫性的经济需求年纪越小的话何妨职场都不收所以他就会往高风险的工作流动所以部长我问的非常简单一句话愿不愿意支持把青少年完整的就业权益保障那个措施跟职癌的协助写进救福法里面"},{"start":268.274,"end":294.445,"text":"跟文說明因為剛剛如果剛剛委員上面寫如果是未成年人如果是未成年這四個字的話那涵蓋範圍非常廣甚至可能會被認為可是你沒有辦法把它單一的去寫更多對所以我的意思是說因為如果是未成年人的話那可能比方說六歲的兒童也是未成年人是可是你的另外一個法律本來也就是16到18才可以去工作"},{"start":294.785,"end":309.832,"text":"對 所以我的意思是說我覺得大家可以來研商一下關於這個條文的這個這個文字的處理那怎麼樣可以比較精準的捕捉委員長指涉的這一群這一群對象"},{"start":310.933,"end":338.644,"text":"然後但也不至於擴到太大因為如果當然寫未成年可能外界也會那六歲也是那這個八歲也是那這可能就不是委員的本意這樣子所以我覺得在條文的文字上面我們這麼處理到比較精準的可以捕捉落定到可能是現在大家比較擔心的這些就業的弱勢我覺得我們可以從這部分來延伸到時候在主條審查的時候我想部長應該我們現在有一些公視應該要對於"},{"start":340.413,"end":367.34,"text":"這一群真的已經在職場當中工作也是合法的16到18的這些未成年應該要給一些協助但我想我們可以再討論一下文字怎麼樣弱比較合適然後不會有範圍擴大或者是會有涵蓋不足的問題謝謝部長 社工保的是勞保適用所有勞動法規這點毫無疑問我也知道多數社福機構很努力照顧社工可現實就是還是有"},{"start":367.8,"end":397.047,"text":"固定的比例的社工在欠薪托薪變相減薪的狀態實在不是只有被打被咬還有爆發心理創傷社安網出事呢就怪社工的輿論的獵巫高案量的壓力衛福部三年前的一個統計就說5824名的社安網的社工有1188名遭受到口頭的辱罵威脅肢體暴力等不當對待比例高達兩成其中光是口頭辱罵就佔了六成以上"},{"start":397.447,"end":411.465,"text":"更別說一定還有一些黑數部長我就直接問勞動部如何認知到什麼是高風險職場那麼有社工有10到20%的機率被罵被威脅甚至被打這算安全的職場嗎"},{"start":414.704,"end":432.619,"text":"當然其實就像委員說的其實社工是一個社會上非常非常重要的助人的職業尤其是在一些高風險的情境裡面有時候看到社工也會面對到一些人身上的安全所以我覺得他應該也是要大家優先保護的對象"},{"start":433.78,"end":462.743,"text":"那至於社工的高風險的情境的問題我覺得我們是很願意來跟衛福部一起來討論跟合作因為其實衛福部會對於社工的類別跟風險的情境會比我們更加的熟悉所以我想我們是很願意來跟衛福部來討論說哪些比較重點的風險的情境那我們也會請我們治安署來跟衛福部來討論是不是要重點來促使大家把法尊做得更落實"},{"start":463.464,"end":487.607,"text":"部長 我很高興聽到你講這句話我自己當了幾十年的社工我過去同時也是機構的主管我一定是站在這群助人工作者這邊來問你那如果你跟他講說未來你們要去做這樣的話那我們還是很希望你能跟衛福部去討論到針對於社工的勞動權益跟職業安全這一塊實際在推動的方案到底有哪些"},{"start":488.107,"end":502.326,"text":"還有哪些固定協調的機制真的要去做另外一個就是依這次新修的職安法跟相關法規實務上到底要怎麼用在社工我想先問部長政府內部的契約社工勞動身份最模糊了"},{"start":502.807,"end":526.316,"text":"既不像正式公務員 都是保勞保但是又背著公務體系責任在公部門裡邊的契約社工約聘 約僱 約用 值待依循著不同辦法來禁用部長 他們遇到職場霸凌的時候要走什麼申訴管道因為我最近辦公室接到好幾次用職安法那責任制 加班 權益都沒有辦法解決的時候勞動部又應該認為要怎麼處理"},{"start":528.537,"end":552.126,"text":"我應該講這是兩件事情一個事情是如果遇到霸凌那當然公務門系統下面的社工這個越過人的話在我們現在的規範裡面基本上還是適用治安法來處理那剛剛在講到說另外是責任制公使的問題這當然會有另外其他在勞基法相關的法規來處理包含加班嗎甚至有時候他們權益沒辦法的時候那到底要怎麼去"},{"start":553.632,"end":565.609,"text":"一樣用職安法嗎不是加班的問題就用勞基法所以這是不同的霸凌是用職安法但是加班的那種工時的問題他就是用勞基法來處理"},{"start":567.75,"end":583.239,"text":"請部長會後一週內是不是告訴我們你這兩年實際處理的案件以及要讓公部門約聘僱的社工知道他們自己如何保障他自己的權益可以嗎我想如果社工有問到勞動相關的權益的話一樣應該都是可以跟地方政府勞政主管機關來做申訴"},{"start":584.48,"end":603.175,"text":"那申訴管道我想應該是暢通的那我們會來督導地方政府應該要積極的來處理相關的案件那再麻煩部長最後一個就是部長多數社福機構都不是惡意剝削可是卡在制度跟資源當中而社工常常連過勞心理創傷算不算紙災自己都不敢確定"},{"start":603.895,"end":618.145,"text":"所以很少主動爭取所以我就問四個比較具體的問題第一個現在部分縣市已經在做社福機構的法尊法事部長你知道成效如何嗎中央有沒有主動了解能不能由勞動部來提升量能來統籌推動"},{"start":621.496,"end":636.199,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在我們除了勞動條件檢查以外這個法遵法釋的量也一直在提升那這近三年的話那像剛剛提到的這個社會福利機構我們大概法遵法釋大概到五千場次"},{"start":636.963,"end":665.318,"text":"我覺得甚至可不可以就為什麼不能用中央來推因為勞動部對中小企業說可以提供客製化的法尊法事那社福機構沒有道理不能部長你願不願意跟衛福部一起規劃納入專屬社福機構的法尊法事內容然後有沒有這部分報告有沒有問題根文報告當然我覺得我們是很樂意跟衛福部來討論就是對於社福機構的那另外一方面其實因為現在"},{"start":666.482,"end":695.988,"text":"也有蠻多個非常有行動力的社工的工會那我們也覺得其實這幾年社工工會其實也提出很多很重要的權力上面的倡議然後也協助行政部門解決或提出我覺得也提出很多重要的問題所以我覺得我們在這些相關的工作上面我們很願意尤其是跟社工的工會一起來做合作那我相信其實可以把對於這些機構的法尊可以做得更到位"},{"start":696.408,"end":711.52,"text":"我想謝謝部長因為我想不管是施工會或職業工會都非常關心這一群在現場工作那因為過去政府機關都會做行政指引可是這些指引都放在雲端製作成SOP放在抽屜裡面救不了精疲力竭"},{"start":712.501,"end":731.523,"text":"歷階的社工所以我們需要的是現場的法尊法事來雙向行政指導跟機構服務而且每年檢討分析出報告所以部長如果落實的話未來一年開一次會跟衛福部去做這樣的社福機構法尊法事的一個檢討這部分不知道能不能做到"},{"start":732.418,"end":753.911,"text":"我覺得我們是可以的我真的覺得要把工會一起找進來我覺得把工會一起找進來討論其實我覺得可以反映一些更更具體的問題而且我們幫助我們真的處理的更更更落實更到位那感謝不過這一題比較複雜我想也警部長讓主責的單位跟我們辦公室約時間我們再來討論詳細的謝謝林月群"}]}},{"id":"165496","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165496","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab9c4cf32e606d2fba4a62993df726b2225fbc24375b25c474575f0c0cec024c425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:43:38 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謝謝主席然後也謝謝朝委陳秀寶她安排了這樣子的一個題目為全民所重視的這個議題當然也謝謝今天在場的各位專家學者然後來現場提供我們立法者的一個參考"},{"start":20.894,"end":38.562,"text":"那針對如何淘汰不適任教練跟建立完善運動教練制度的查核因為運動教練他長期的近距離的去接觸耳哨權力不對等然後能發生性貧跟性侵害的這樣的風險然後需要強化這個保護機制"},{"start":42.744,"end":56.678,"text":"本席要有以下的主張尤其是在我們現在看到的是運動部跟體育運動部跟教育部他們有提出來專案裡面的報告當中但是我特別要對運動部這邊提出了一個很重要的一個譴責"},{"start":58.4,"end":73.009,"text":"雖然現在有提出來但是目前就是對不適任的教練的這個公告的機制呢就是因為缺乏法源基礎呢而沒有公告那造成了非常多的風險繼續在發生那因此呢我強調是說第一個必須要正視制度漏洞導致兒少受害的這個現況那現在的這個制度絕對沒有辦法有效的阻隔不適任教練他的跨場域的這個任教那形成了非常重大的一個風險"},{"start":88.32,"end":92.182,"text":"依照工廳會的討論問題主要有這三點第一個是因應教練他的資格跟兒少保護的關聯性低所以必須要強調到兒少保護的這樣的一個課程所以運動部要強化這個兒少的認知跟保護的課程給教練並建立系統化的查核制度第二點"},{"start":112.697,"end":132.258,"text":"曾對於有前科或是不當行為者他們仍可以轉場或是改名到重辦運動的現場這樣的事情必須就顯示出來跨體系的防護跟退場機制不完整急需要建立不適任教練的一個資料庫"},{"start":133.419,"end":140.204,"text":"那第三個特別是針對到民間的俱樂部它的監管是非常鬆散但我們上個禮拜都已經請了運動部的"},{"start":144.656,"end":166.645,"text":"政府市長來針對所謂的協會的管理這部分的確呈現到非常大的問題那另外一個問題就在於教練他測證他是由運動部來處理那教學登記的是由地方政府來輔導但中間缺乏明確的教練進場的查核規範導致家長根本無法得知教練的背景"},{"start":167.885,"end":194.907,"text":"那对现在有的这个修法提案呢本席也提出了三项的补强第一项呢必须要防范到恶意的卷举那这边可以借尽教师法对于没有设防卫机制这一部分呢他如果没有设计这个机制的话呢制度呢恐怕会被滥用那伤害无辜的教练跟专业他的生育那应该要规定检举人呢应该提出具体"},{"start":195.507,"end":210.287,"text":"具名的而且應該有提出具體證據喔那惡意的或者不實的檢舉者的應該要負到法律責任避免成為制度成為運動版的這個校式會議的翻版那第二個呢在應該考慮到"},{"start":211.748,"end":236.607,"text":"台北市在地方政府上實際上有一個已經有實例出現了他們有一個幼兒園不適任人員的公告專區是可以查詢的大家也可以現在馬上上台北市政府去看到那這個專區裡面的他這個成功公告就把公告之後的這個出現到有這樣不適任的被發生傷害的這種事件就大幅的減少"},{"start":239.609,"end":246.313,"text":"該專區具備主動查詢的功能並在法律授權下永久公告教練不適合"},{"start":249.439,"end":277.316,"text":"在法律授權下永久的公告涉及性別及不當對待者的資訊運動部應該參照這樣的模式在禁訴在把法治完備的情況之下建置運動教練不適任人員的公告專區目前我們也看到在運動部的報告當中有提到說他們要把查到法治化去處理11月今年的9月3號這部分也要把裁判書等等再加上我想"},{"start":278.197,"end":296.794,"text":"地方政府台北市都可以做到運動部依照這樣的依照前例去進行也不會是大問題喔那這個部分就應該把公開教練的姓名的證號不適合的室友還有涉及機構及他登記號等資訊呢永久的保留裁罰的處理資料"},{"start":298.596,"end":317.985,"text":"那第三個呢 應該強化檢舉的委員跟調查委員的這個迴避機制避免出現求援兼裁判的利益衝突那調查委員呢 必須由中立的專業人士來組成並公開調查程序與證據基礎來確保程序上面的正義"},{"start":319.662,"end":347.696,"text":"在具體的修法方面本席提出了三項建議第一個是修正國民體育法建立兒少保護背景的查核制度運動部應該每月的借接法務部跟衛福部及地方政府的資料庫並參照澳洲的模式來建立兒少工作的認證要求教練要修避課程通過查核才來取得這樣的證照"},{"start":349.366,"end":374.593,"text":"第二個是要建置不適任運動人員跟教練的查詢系統與公告專區納入教練的資料不適任的行為類型處分內容跟公告期間那基於公共利益的一個需求呢在政府的公開資訊這部分進行應該其實都不是問題的並提供關鍵字搜尋永久公開才能達到建立一個安全的運動環境"},{"start":376.554,"end":396.289,"text":"第三 應該建立獨立透明的調查程序由行政 法律 兒少保護跟運動界來組成運動教練調查委員會 明定檢舉的事項 作業還有審查時程跟調查的期限也要落實 迴避規範"},{"start":398.991,"end":406.019,"text":"同時對惡意檢舉者規定法律責任包含無告罪的追究名譽損害賠償跟列管的措施"},{"start":407.308,"end":428.565,"text":"最後我們要呼籲這個制度必須同時達到兩個目標第一個就談判真正不適任的教練而且要避免這個制度被利用作為報復或者私鬥的工具台北市的幼兒園不適任人員的公告的經驗證明公開透明的機制能夠保護兒少而迴避"},{"start":430.626,"end":455.832,"text":"和迴避規範獨立調查與惡意檢舉的責任則另外也保障了程序正義本席期待運動部能夠在修法當中參考到各方面的基建尤其今天特別我們立法院召開了這樣子的公聽會就是希望把各種的機制把它納入起來等到未來在修法的時候達到真正去建立一個真正安全透明而且可靠的一個運動環境好 謝謝"},{"start":460.093,"end":460.38,"text":"谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab798fb50f44a7692ebfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c4749afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:21:23 - 09:23:06","影片長度":"00:01:43","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:21:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:23:06+08:00","duration":103,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.96034375,"end":102.66471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.895,"end":25.904,"text":"主席 各位同事根據近年來的統計新住民的勞參率逐年提升他們在服務業 在製造業餐飲業等基層或是關鍵職位上做出了很多的付出已經成為台灣的主要的勞動力來源之一但我們的法律卻沒有給他們足夠的保障無法確保新住民的就業權益"},{"start":26.644,"end":43.462,"text":"那一直以來本黨的麥一尊委員不斷地為新住民的權益奔走要求政府能夠正視新住民的需求在台灣新住民家庭超過百萬他們不是少數那卻因為制度的缺口缺漏而被排除在許多權益之外"},{"start":44.142,"end":72.138,"text":"所以终于在麦玉珍委的努力下在2024年7月通过了台湾第一步的新住民基本法确立了新住民的基本权益那现在我们不断的呼吁内政部要尽快履行法律义务加速新住民发展署的成立那台湾民众也会继续为新住民的权益来发声不让他们权益在制度中消失那我们本党的版本当中将新住民明确增列为就业扶法第24条中主管机关必须定定"},{"start":73.118,"end":97.726,"text":"就業促進計畫的對象之一目的是希望未來主管機關能夠定期檢討促進就業計畫的成效跟結果並且提供相關的協助跟支持這不是特殊待遇因為這是讓制度更完善而更反映出台灣真實的社會需求新住民是台灣社會的一個分子保障他們的就業權益就是保障台灣整個未來的競爭力謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝陳朝資委員"}]}},{"id":"165492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abe7c7d528152e8d60bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c4743af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"09:18:36 - 09:21:17","影片長度":"00:02:41","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:18:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:21:17+08:00","duration":161,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.22409375,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.46034375,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.59721875,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.21284375,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.245968750000003,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.92471875,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.619718750000004,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.758468750000006,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.45846875,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.09034375,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.42284375,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.85721875,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.44346875000001,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.62034375,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.36221875000001,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.85034375000001,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.50784375,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.43034375,"end":156.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.61409375000002,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.78659375,"end":161.59221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.867,"end":20.131,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先感謝我們廖偉強召委今天排審我們就業服務法等草案本席在此做提案說明"},{"start":21.656,"end":42.002,"text":"建于民国112年年底我国新住民的总数也已超越原住民多达59万2561人当年可说是新住民元年而更早于民国97年劳动部制定促进新住民就业补助要点"},{"start":42.816,"end":58.731,"text":"可見勞動主管機關認定我國新住民卻為因協助之特定對象及就業弱勢族群但根據內政部在107年新住民生活需求調查僅2.5%之新住民"},{"start":62.094,"end":83.728,"text":"透过公立就业服务机构进行求职同时却高达17.7%的新住民朋友曾遭遇求职困难显见我们工部门对于新住民就业促进及就业服务难为积极主动尚有大幅改进的空间"},{"start":84.728,"end":101.99,"text":"雖然去年113年朝野的共同努力之下新住民基本法也已三讀通過但是唯獨推動有關新住民就學 就業 賠利關懷協助及多元服務等事宜"},{"start":103.558,"end":129.471,"text":"這個新住民發展署遲遲未能正式成立因此在現階段新住民的促進就業政策及措施仍有賴勞動部積極推展原此本席與游浩委員 麥玉珍委員鄭振前委員等17人提出《就業服務法》第24條條文修正草案"},{"start":130.091,"end":157.07,"text":"增訂新住民與就業法母法之中為特定促進就業對象要求主管機關針對新住民之自願就業人員應訂定計畫並致力促進其就業協助排除就業障礙提升新住民勞動參與力以彰顯國家對新住民之重視以上 謝謝"},{"start":159.804,"end":159.905,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員說明"}]}},{"id":"165491","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165491","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abb9f85263faf33dedbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c474f1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:15:53 - 09:18:14","影片長度":"00:02:21","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:15:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:18:14+08:00","duration":141,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.103468750000005,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":91.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.69596875,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.51721875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.49346875,"end":138.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.78534375,"end":142.96221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.302,"end":34.822,"text":"主席各位委員同仁各位官員大家好今天本席要針對勞工保險條例第66條以及第69條的修正草案進行提案說明大家知道勞保是我國最重要的社會安全網關係到超過千萬勞工的退休生計根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保破產危機延後到"},{"start":37.416,"end":60.197,"text":"2031年但是潛藏負債卻暴增到13.23兆元這代表著我們的政府只是在延後危機而不是解決問題更重要的是政府賴以延後危機的這個撥補在現行的法律中呢竟然無法源的依據讓千萬的勞工非常非常的焦慮"},{"start":61.058,"end":78.609,"text":"因此我們第一個重點就是修正第66條將政府的撥補納入基金來源正式做到撥補法制化這是政府應盡的責任必須有法律依據穩定裁員第二個重點我們要特別說明"},{"start":79.589,"end":100.535,"text":"國民年金法和公務人員退休資遣復續法都有明定政府要負最後支付以及保證的責任這是國家的承諾然而保障人數最多的勞工保險條例卻獨獨少了這一條這對千萬的勞工極不公平"},{"start":101.567,"end":116.822,"text":"因此我们也主张修正第69条明确增订劳工保险之财务由中央政府负最后支付责任我们要给予全国劳工同等的法律保障国家不能倒劳保当然也不能倒"},{"start":118.547,"end":139.067,"text":"本次修法旨在先做两件最基本最紧急的事第一个让政府拨补合法化第二个让政府承诺法治化这是未来改革为了未来改革铺路更是安定千万劳工家庭的定心丸恳请各位同仁共同支持谢谢谢谢徐新英委员说明"}]}},{"id":"165490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab2f64d8b134520205bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c4740385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:13:11 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09:15:44","影片長度":"00:02:33","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:13:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:15:44+08:00","duration":153,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":54.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.29659375000001,"end":149.77971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.407,"end":27.009,"text":"謝謝主席感謝主席還有這個府院同仁今天我們在這邊有機會來討論也希望能夠大家的條文都有機會有一個很好的這個結果所以今天本席針對勞工保險條例第59條第二項做出了一個修正的草案那在這邊的說明以下"},{"start":28.05,"end":53.604,"text":"我國在許多的縣市目前已經邁入了超高齡社會全國65歲以上的人口比例已經接近20%但是現行的制度仍規定勞工年滿60歲後繼續工作保險的年資僅能在計算5年也就是說65歲以後工作年資完全不列入勞保老年給付的一個計算"},{"start":55.359,"end":71.753,"text":"那這個設計呢不符合現在的一個勞動現狀許多健康且有意願的長者仍然希望能夠繼續貢獻在職場那麼也透過這樣子來支撐家庭的經濟但現行的制度使他們多勞而沒有多保"},{"start":72.293,"end":90.672,"text":"不但無法增加退休的保障反而削弱他再就業的這個誘因那本次修法的建議60歲以上繼續工作的勞工每年可以累計一個月的老年給付不要受上限五年的一個限制這樣子調整可以有三個目的"},{"start":91.212,"end":106.452,"text":"第一個是鼓勵高齡者持續參與勞動緩解勞動力的短缺那第二個部分呢是讓65歲以上還在工作的職業勞工享有合理的保障第三是維持制度的財政穩健"},{"start":107.774,"end":128.953,"text":"因為現在一次領取勞保給付者是8%且比例逐年下降那麼對財政的影響極為有限那麼立法院在去年我們已經三讀通過勞動基準法第54條開放勞僱雙方來協商延後退休那本次修法正是與該政策來接軌"},{"start":130.115,"end":148.974,"text":"讓勞保制度與高齡就業的政策同步來更新那這項修法是為了恢復公平而不是鼓勵延退喔而是保障繼續付出而且有能力付出的人那也在這邊懇請大家來支持本案讓長者多一份保障讓社會多一份力量以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab520b5349afa87650c344f506729c478c5fbc24375b25c4746b5ac9660c38a9835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:25:15 - 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欺騙國人"},{"start":246.989,"end":256.3,"text":"當初行政院是行政院院會耶王美花自己出來宣布耶增加只有150億耶怎麼後來會變成增加300多億這個是發生什麼事"},{"start":261.085,"end":286.355,"text":"委員我可以做個說明嗎是請說這個部分講的150億是講說這個直接工程的部分150億但是呢在編列預算的時候呢還要考慮其他的因素譬如說在工程試作期間有沒有誤調的問題我這樣講好了啦納稅人關心的就是這樣搞要多花多少錢嘛還有在你們這邊解釋來解釋去啊"},{"start":289.907,"end":312.824,"text":"150億是直接工程然後其他的是其他的那行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義這150億啊 你仔細看啊這還不是只有行政院院會宣布啊來你看這個表三接迴避替代修正方案與外推方案之比較這個表你有看到嗎"},{"start":314.124,"end":320.797,"text":"有有 這個表示你們中油做的沒錯吧來你看下面預算增加多少錢150億啊這也是你們中油寫的啊"},{"start":326.769,"end":343.625,"text":"是沒錯 但是你看這些項目指的都是直接工程我剛剛講的就是說直接工程是150億沒關係啦 今天第一件事以後請你們中油跟行政院包括經濟部對納稅人說明的時候講清楚啦300多億就300多億"},{"start":347.316,"end":369.967,"text":"寫個150億 等到我去發預算書的時候發現根本不是150億 在東解釋西解釋的納稅人關心的是什麼 關心你多花多少錢嘛我講的對不對 對對對 以後我們改好 多編300多億是什麼時候編的 預算最後通過是111年的3月份"},{"start":371.162,"end":394.819,"text":"預算是什麼時候編的計畫本身965是111年的對我問你預算什麼時候編的你指的是工程本身的發包預算不是啦要經過立法院審核通過的預算我們是立法院嘛你們編預算嘛我們審嘛審了通過了以後你們下去執行嘛正常的民主國家不是這樣嗎這預算什麼時候編的"},{"start":401.014,"end":427.493,"text":"965億這個部分是修正計畫的項目是預算什麼時候編的就是111年的3月份行政院核定是 預算什麼時候編的我們應該是在110年會去做這個計畫修正然後報經濟部對不起 你還是沒有回答我的問題預算什麼時候編的您是指原始預算嗎不是 修正過要增加300多億的預算什麼時候編到預算書裡面送到立法院來審核"},{"start":430.404,"end":451.315,"text":"不知道 應該是會在111年的預算書上會去揭露好來看你們實際上預算暴增305億這個我剛剛講過了所以發生這件事情我就回去看預算書啊我每一年的預算書都對啊來我對出來了我直接給董事長看"},{"start":452.694,"end":482.045,"text":"你們是111年喔立法院審核通過的預算書喔都還是原來的金額660億的金額 你有沒有看到這個是立法院審核通過的你們什麼時候預算書開始多300多億啊到965億是112年才出來的112年的預算書才編的啊你看到沒有 那我現在就搞不懂啊"},{"start":483.495,"end":512.293,"text":"300多億你們是到112年的預算書才呈現那請問現在有關於真正大家在爭議的那個外推的工程是什麼時候決標的111年的7月那我現在問題就來了你的預算還沒有送到立法院來立法院還沒有審通過立法院審不審對你們來講沒有差"},{"start":513.991,"end":524.943,"text":"我反正就決標下去啦連預算都沒有就可以辦決標我看不懂啊所以現在立法院在審國營事業的預算是形同劇文嗎是形同劇文嗎"},{"start":530.631,"end":555.291,"text":"報告委員 就我的認知的話就是在修正計畫的部分對 修正計畫是你們行政院的事嘛好 那我現在的問題來了在一個民主法治國家當中是行政院編預算就可以花錢還是立法院要通過預算才能夠花錢這是我的問題如果行政院編預算就可以花錢不用立法院審核通過"},{"start":556.823,"end":562.756,"text":"那立法院廢掉算啦我們省什麼預算啦所有的立委在這邊省心酸的"},{"start":565.509,"end":588.386,"text":"立法院有同意這個計畫嗎新興計畫本身是已經同意了誰 是誰同意的我說原始的計畫是行政院對嘛 原始計畫不是660億嗎那個是立法院也同意是 沒錯所以立法院同意你用660億我一點問題都沒有但是後續的修正計畫的話目前在行政院的部分是核准我們先行動之啊"},{"start":589.301,"end":617.51,"text":"對嘛 這個就是我現在的問題嘛在我們現在的預算制度裡面反正行政院最大行政院編了立法院還沒有審核我就直接先幹了嘛我有說錯嗎那我的問題來啦我們的立法院審國營事業的計畫是要做什麼因為整個我看到的啊 叫做從立法院的觀點來看我跟董事長報告我看到什麼 先設建後化吧"},{"start":618.723,"end":631.153,"text":"先設建後化吧我行政院預算膨脹啦本來告訴社會大眾150億後來變成365億後來誇張到365億都還沒有送到立法院來審核我連決標都做好啦我國的預算制度到底出了什麼問題啊讓你們這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":648.956,"end":661.023,"text":"我們立法院到底在省什麼預算啊我錢要花就花啦你們這些立法委員橡皮圖章而已啊我行政部門就是要先設建再畫吧150億到365億更離譜的是365億連預算立法院都還沒有省我已經絕標啦預算到2023年的時候才編"},{"start":679.861,"end":703.757,"text":"但是我2022年絕標啦請問要立法院審這樣的預算有何意義立法院可以不同意嗎到時候你們說 報告委員不好意思喔你們雖然還沒有通過預算啦我們中友早就絕標要做這件事啦可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":705.868,"end":732.371,"text":"可以這樣幹嗎還是你們覺得按照我國現行的預算制度中油這樣幹剛剛好而已 是這樣嗎我想報告委員中油公司的所謂預算跟執行都依照現有的制度來去執行對啊 但我現在就挑戰嘛你們根本沒有按照現有的制度啊我事情都還沒有說完啊我看你們啊 暴增305億我想要看裡面的項目"},{"start":733.41,"end":761.056,"text":"到底是什麼項目要花多少錢305億那個在旁邊搖耳朵的你有話要講直接上來回答你先等一下報徵305億中油的預算書長這個樣子來我請教一下董事長如果你今天當立法委員你要怎麼審這個預算只有數字我有一個計畫的目的我有一個計畫的內容我有一個投資的總額"},{"start":762.901,"end":790.509,"text":"全部的字數加起來不超過一百個字然後我看到的數字是多了三百六十五億這個是把立法委員當什麼你要不然就是把我們當神仙我們是神仙啊終有什麼 什麼都不用提供一百個字之內概述計畫內容多三百六十五億我們是神仙要知道裡面的細部"},{"start":791.553,"end":800.503,"text":"到底合理不合理那要不然呢這些立委全部上班的時候都在混都在打瞌睡都在閉著眼睛審預算是誰教你們預算書寫成這個樣子的啊這樣是要立法院怎麼審"},{"start":810.822,"end":835.379,"text":"我想現在我們在這個文書報表所呈現都是一些標準的格式 過往都是沒有關係啊 是誰訂的標準 立法院訂的標準嗎還是行政院訂的標準過往的一個沒有關係啊 過往的陋習我為什麼今天挑這個題目直接切進來是不是有弊案讓檢調去調查我光從立法院該監督的錢怎麼給你們的"},{"start":839.194,"end":858.067,"text":"計劃經費怎麼暴增的預算怎麼審核的預算還沒有過以前你們都已經絕標啦在民主國家當中這種預算制度如果按照董事長所講這是正常的話我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我國的預算制度"},{"start":860.046,"end":884.252,"text":"我再說一次 如果按照你們所說的 這樣子做是正常的我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我們的預算制度但我看到的是什麼 我看到的是叫做先設建後畫把先設建後畫把 立法院預算都還沒有通過你們決標都已經辦了 甚至你們決標的金額那三項工程加起來多少錢 董事長知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":885.563,"end":914.104,"text":"三項工程嘛本來宣布一百五十億後來邊預算邊到增加到三百零五億最後那三項工程花多少錢三百三十億左右來我算出來了三百四十三億你們也是很厲害先設限再劃吧就算了過的增加的預算是三百零五億三項工程來我報給你聽哈前面"},{"start":915.529,"end":943.709,"text":"在111年 預算還沒有通過喔我再強調 預算還沒有通過喔111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程東坯營造 京務大工程就先絕標了 20億就是這一次 那個外接方案沒有得標的廠商嘛就他們嘛 我看了也很狐疑原來就是這一億兩家廠商在那邊吵 到底該你的還該我的"},{"start":944.707,"end":946.269,"text":"111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程20億111年7月29號 黃昌營造253億"},{"start":956.82,"end":979.858,"text":"後來呢 外國防波新建工程做契約變更 再追加2840萬給他第三個 製程設計與管線統包工程這是第三項工程嘛第三項工程69億加起來343億作為一個立委 現在我就看不懂了我們給你們的預算我們同意增加305億結果你們決標可以決標到343億"},{"start":987.289,"end":989.598,"text":"這個是怎麼回事可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":990.718,"end":1019.327,"text":"就是剛剛我跟委員所報告的直接工程150億但是這個計畫本身編列預算還有其他的像是對啊 就到965億啊對對對那所以相差多少 305億嘛這裡面就是說我們會去籌備一些物調的一個所以你的意思是什麼 自己從別的項目挪用過來嗎對對對 還有工程準備我的老天啊就其他 我再講一次我痛恨你們這種"},{"start":1022.418,"end":1043.892,"text":"用含糊其詞的方式在欺騙國人啊本來給你們660億追加到965億 多了305億立法院還沒有審通過你們就絕標了 膽大包天啊第二個 更扯的是什麼算出來的何止305億 343億啊"},{"start":1049.813,"end":1069.112,"text":"中油為什麼負債比現在高達93% 中油很有錢啊預算還沒有過 直接先絕標 絕標下去本來多三項工程305億從我們前面詢答的過程當中 我講得非常清楚了150億到305億 最後花343億 343億"},{"start":1078.413,"end":1102.728,"text":"忠友怎麼能不虧 出手大方啊 大方的不得了啊召委 今天既然排這個專案報告因為忠友他前面所編的那305億 細項到底是什麼大家根本都不知道 這個是第一件事情第二件事情 編預算編305億他們自己知道的絕標喔 就已經343億了"},{"start":1105.034,"end":1119.548,"text":"中油到底錢怎麼花的到底錢怎麼花的從哪些項目又多挪了三十幾億來搞這個三接是不是可以請召委等一下才是會後看這個禮拜禮拜五以前"},{"start":1120.669,"end":1138.067,"text":"是不是把所有的細項資料都交到司法法治委員會來這樣我們排這個專案報告才有意義嘛那要不然中央的董事長在上面問他的問題他也沒有辦法回答其他的細的項目我們也沒有辦法看得到是不是等一下請麻煩召委裁示一下"},{"start":1139.833,"end":1157.6,"text":"我想請中郵待會依照黃委員的意見然後將你們採購的這個事項的一些說明書在星期五下班之前提供給我們司法署剛剛我的問題很具體嘛你聽得懂嗎沒有含糊涼"},{"start":1164.224,"end":1181.222,"text":"絕對沒有含糊其詩的地方了嘛兩個重點 第一個細項第二個呢 超過150億的部分這些預算是從計畫裡面哪個項目是 從哪個地方挪過來的那要不然我覺得立法院在審預算根本是在審耍寶的還是在審辛酸的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"165488","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165488","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab9ad7a94dbfb17a1ebfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c4745639f62fdc189b545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:08:39 - 09:11:07","影片長度":"00:02:28","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:08:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:11:07+08:00","duration":148,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.730343750000001,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.820343750000003,"end":147.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.44221875000002,"end":149.96534375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.007,"end":32.959,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天未還委員會很重要的是我們要審查勞保條例第66條跟69條到目前9月為止我們全國的勞工已經來到1053萬0846人但是我們從2017年開始事實上我們的整個保費的收入跟支出就已經達到不平衡"},{"start":33.752,"end":50.813,"text":"一直到現在持續9年的時間所以千萬的勞工都一直在擔心有一種恐懼就是勞保會不會破產如果勞保破產他辛辛苦苦一輩子他想要領到的退休金可能就付諸流水"},{"start":51.374,"end":74.054,"text":"所以為了要讓千萬的勞工可以安心那現在的民進黨政府喊出撥補即是改革但是他不應該只是一個口號而是應該要把撥補的責任最終支付的責任入法入法之後才可以讓千萬的勞工安心有政府在勞保不會倒這句話才不會是空話"},{"start":76.997,"end":99.922,"text":"所以今天本席也提出來這樣子的一個改革的修正案希望今天在委員會的討論可以順利的通過另外我也要特別提我們現在整個勞保基金收支的短處情況其實持續惡化中我們看到2024年收支短處已經來到665億到2026年也就是明年的時候來到1015億"},{"start":105.123,"end":126.008,"text":"那到2031年的時候我們整個勞保基金會呈現負的846億也就是說在持續的往下走之後即使我們現在有把撥補入法但是基金他的這個將來的負債的情況並沒有百分之百的解決而這件事我認為誰執政誰就有責任"},{"start":129.389,"end":147.065,"text":"如果要更有責任 負起責任的話短期 我們這樣的一個撥補的辦法是可以解決燃眉之急但是長期負責任的執政黨應該還是要提出永續的勞保年金的改革方案才是正辦 以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165489","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165489","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab6c22dcc6f6e02168bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c4749eaef7e7dd1b13af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:11:15 - 09:13:05","影片長度":"00:01:50","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:11:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:13:05+08:00","duration":110,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.77659375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.86346875,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.93284375,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.75034375,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.96471875,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.72409375,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.73409375000001,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.18284375,"end":109.54971875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.816,"end":32.379,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我今天提的有兩個案第一個是勞工保險條例第63條那主要的重點是未婚勞工單身懲罰條款如果這個勞工身後沒有任何符合規定的遺囑然後沒有領完整的給付"},{"start":34.062,"end":54.711,"text":"文件paper walker沒有做好的話形同放棄甚至會被外界逼成為充公而且這個事情還不少所以同樣是社會保險的公調人員保險法沒有這個限制所以今天這個63條主要的重點是刪除"},{"start":55.971,"end":72.479,"text":"受其撫養的限制我們這個是一定要把這個拿掉那第二個就是增訂遺族的指定權就是他可以在遺族上面來設立這個是今天的重點因為很多人提所以不再贅述"},{"start":73.539,"end":93.57,"text":"另外一個是就業服務法第24條我們把它納入就是15歲到29歲的青年我們要確保他的權益甚至老保要給他加入因為青少年的失業率是蠻高的15到24歲青年的失業率占整體是比整體失業率的2.51倍"},{"start":95.231,"end":105.117,"text":"所以這個數字最近又攀升到3倍多所以這個就業福法第24條是我們修訂的重點以上"}]}},{"id":"165487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abb18a7a42f514dbe9bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d5fbc24375b25c474135377653bbc0bde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:05:27 - 09:08:32","影片長度":"00:03:05","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:05:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T09:08:32+08:00","duration":185,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.88159375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.567218750000002,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.337843750000005,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.48909375000001,"end":79.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.57971875,"end":80.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.25346875000001,"end":184.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.61784375000002,"end":186.97221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.268,"end":22.139,"text":"謝謝我們今天召委特別排有關勞工權利的這個修法所以再次謝謝也謝謝所有的官員大家都知道台灣勞工保險"},{"start":24.962,"end":45.771,"text":"確定現在是1053,084人所以這是9月份的所以上千2300多萬人口1000多萬就是勞工保險所以有關我看到這些修法"},{"start":47.471,"end":64.318,"text":"確確實實本席等32位我也要謝謝我們的部長過去的立法委員他也參與連署這次本席提案的66條跟69條66條主要是要把它法治化要撥補"},{"start":66.819,"end":80.371,"text":"69條是不要口口聲聲就告訴勞工我政府會負責我們也只要求微薄的希望希望最終給付的法治化那大家知道"},{"start":81.739,"end":105.367,"text":"勞保當然是有黑洞可是這個黑洞我們要了解為什麼黑洞從台灣省政府動省之後把移交中央的時候那個時候根本沒有精算也沒有移交只移交業務沒有移交財務所以這個部分黑洞的形成"},{"start":106.247,"end":129.423,"text":"全部在這個部分所以現在口口聲聲告訴人家勞保要倒 勞保要倒你知道這一千多萬的勞工他心裡面什麼感覺嗎所以還要來繳多 零少 延後退這對勞工是不公平的所以財務的黑洞是從這裡來那我也希望我們勞工"},{"start":131.164,"end":157.635,"text":"得到一個微薄的保障很簡單就是把它法制化所以本席等32位提出這些法制化很簡單就是66條撥補法制化我相信15年到20年勞保的問題就會解決所以我同意前部長所講撥補就是救勞保的一種那我們也謝謝這幾年確實"},{"start":160.416,"end":160.616,"text":"謝謝大家 感謝大家"}]}},{"id":"17039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17039","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dac4602610d545ba28749d5d4e85ec53e914d0d15f34b2c02e10d89d9ca36b6825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「如何淘汰不適任教練，建立完善運動教練查核制度」公聽會（事由：立法院教育及文化委員會公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-17T08:37:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T11:32:00+08:00","duration":10471,"影片長度":"02:54:31","委員發言時間":"08:37:29 - 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谢谢"},{"start":1535.629,"end":1562.662,"text":"好今天非常高興可以來召開今天這個如何淘汰不適任教練建立完善運動教練查核制度的公聽會那由於是說現在我們還沒有建立完善的一個教練查核與篩選的制度導致部分曾經有不當行為或是前科的教練仍然能夠在場域裡繼續任教形成而上持續受害的一個風險"},{"start":1563.903,"end":1577.448,"text":"所以面對這樣子的一個漏洞我們的制度設計上必須明確地去建立一個把關 調查 退場 淘汰的完整機制在教練進入體系前要有嚴謹的資格審查與背景查核"},{"start":1579.173,"end":1603.951,"text":"發生爭議或違規時要有獨立且具公信力的調查程序確認不適任的教練應該立即的去退場並且透過資料庫與列管制度防止其再度進入教學場域因此為了真正落實兒少安全的保障避免悲劇一再重演所以我們今天舉辦這樣子的一個公聽會聽取各界的一個寶貴意見以及互相交流討論"},{"start":1604.992,"end":1629.69,"text":"来作为我们日后国民体育法相关的条文修法的参考那今天的我们的讨论提纲有三点第一个就是我国是否已经建立了完善的教练查核与筛选制度那由于现行各运动项目的专任教练若训练对象为儿少多数能缺乏对于儿少身心发展与教学安全的专业知识与训练"},{"start":1630.41,"end":1643.866,"text":"所以在運動部成立之後呢應該要強化這個教練對於兒少認知的保護與課程之外呢還要思考如何建立完善的教練查核與篩選制度來確保每一位兒少"},{"start":1645.609,"end":1663.767,"text":"跟兒少互動的教練呢都具備這樣子的一個資格以及安全背景來確保我們的兒少在訓練環境中能夠身心健全的發展那第二個呢就是過去曾經有前科者能能轉場任教體制應該如何把關列管"},{"start":1664.607,"end":1684.335,"text":"與淘汰高風險教練防止學生反覆受害例如就是說像民間也有在討論是否是建立不失任教練資料庫設立兒少工作證制度甚至設立專責單位來強化行政指導與監督效能"},{"start":1686.161,"end":1712.879,"text":"第三個提綱就是不適任教練在民間俱樂部及社團流竄的問題如何防止監督失靈我想接下來我就先來介紹一下我們今天的與會的貴賓跟我們的委員以及我們的部會首先我先介紹我們的專家學者今天首先第一位是國立體育大學的李在力教授"},{"start":1716.567,"end":1741.316,"text":"第二位是台北市立大學的王淑華教授第三位是人本教育基金會的馮喬蘭執行長第四位是台灣足球發展協會的石明錦理事長第五位是中華民國專業教練協會的李俊勇副秘書長"},{"start":1745.051,"end":1770.548,"text":"第六位是台北市民族時鐘的許秀敏專任運動教練第七位是2025年威廉波特冠軍的東元國小棒球隊的賴敏蘭總教練第八位一樣是威廉波特冠軍的東元國小棒球隊的駱振宇教練第九位是運動產業協會的徐振賢理事長"},{"start":1775.219,"end":1797.678,"text":"第十位是台北教育大學體育系的胡天梅教授第十一位是中華民國奧運人協會的李建熙秘書長接下來我們介紹一下我們今天列席的部會運動部次長黃啟黃"},{"start":1803.614,"end":1829.416,"text":"運動部經濟司司長謝富秀運動部經濟司科長夏淑蓉運動部法規會的執迷蔡維旭運動部全民署署長房瑞文運動部全民署專委施程"},{"start":1834.521,"end":1860.68,"text":"運動部全民署助理謝家盧教育部國民與學前教育署署長彭富源教育部國教署副組長薛承佑教育部國教署科長林宇珍教育部人事處科長楊婉婷"},{"start":1863.499,"end":1874.834,"text":"那為了大家都能夠順利的表達意見我們今天做如下的處理就是每位貴賓發言的時間為七分鐘在第六分鐘時我們會有鈴聲提醒七分鐘結束時會有一個結束鈴聲"},{"start":1878.599,"end":1900.2,"text":"那專家學者發言時會以簽名的先後順序為準現場發言及書面資料立法院會作為記錄刊登公報那第三呢就是在場的立法委員如果有意見要發表的話請於10點前來登記那我們也會在會議中進行穿插並以在場委員登記順序發言"},{"start":1901.781,"end":1928.062,"text":"那如果委員要發言的話請到主席台登記那現在呢我們先請運動部就現行的規定執行狀況相關問題提出說明我們現在請次長那時間是你幾分鐘時間是6分鐘那這個運動部結束之後呢就會請教育部來說明那時間也是6分鐘好"},{"start":1932.987,"end":1936.933,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好"},{"start":1937.836,"end":1966.294,"text":"今天大院教育及文化委员会召开会议本部应邀列席并就如何淘汰不适任教练建立完善运动教练查核制度提纲提出报告并得聆听各位委员及现场的学者专家们的着见深感荣幸承蒙各位委员长期对体育运动事务的关心进行持续的指正与支持以下警救委员所寻淘汰不适任教练"},{"start":1966.954,"end":1985.648,"text":"建立完善運動教練查核等面向做下列的說明第一 有關建立完善的教練查核與篩檢制度學校專利運動教練為各級學校聘任之編制人員屬於教育人員其遴選及查核已經有機制"},{"start":1986.408,"end":2001.427,"text":"根据专任运动教练聘任管理办法已经明定学校在聘任专任运动教练之前应该查询其有无该办法所列之不得聘任之情形以聘任者应定其查核"},{"start":2002.208,"end":2025.243,"text":"二 學校專業運動教練若有疑似不適任之情形由學校依規定進行通報經調查屬實認定由學校至各教育場域不適任人員通報及查詢系統登載並依專業運動教練聘任管理辦法辦理解聘不續聘停聘等事宜"},{"start":2027.025,"end":2044.82,"text":"第二有关特定体育团体合法是教练证特定体育团体有一个定定一个资格检定及管理办法以下简称教练管理办法已经明定了消极的资格例如他如果有性贫或者是体罚等不当的行为不得申请"},{"start":2045.541,"end":2064.709,"text":"教练资格是检定另外针对已经持证的教练我们会进行每周的查询并借接法务部及卫福部的资料库进行查询如果有媒体报道也会及时的系统去遮蔽并要求协会召开纪律委员会去审查"},{"start":2065.749,"end":2076.308,"text":"如查證屬實屬於註銷的教練證並含資地方政府轉資轄區各單位基於體罰 霸凌 性平等不法事件"},{"start":2077.389,"end":2102.546,"text":"运动部的立场是零容忍并且在今年的10月29号已经含文特定体育团体教练从事运动指导工作的时候如果有不当的行为或其行为违反相关之规定要求确实依据相关的规定办理不得有延宕处理事情如果有这样的情况本部会依据既有之法定"},{"start":2103.527,"end":2127.751,"text":"针对辅导的协会做该有的处理第三有关民间团体或训练场馆等从事儿少工作者如果对儿少有不当的情势对待依据现行的儿少法规范应该由地方政府按卫福部所公布的办法去执行"},{"start":2130.222,"end":2152.182,"text":"其中如果有看到這樣的情況他們就應該依據兒少法第49條之規定來做處理二 有關曾經犯有前科仍轉場任教的體制要如何把關列管與淘汰高風險的教練這件事情我們目前有七大方向在處理"},{"start":2153.203,"end":2180.801,"text":"首先是本部每年通报地方政府做各个专业运动教练的查核并根据政府的公告以落实专业运动教练的政兆管理第二有关于特定体育团体教练之检查应查询教练办法当中有无其消极的资格已取得教练资格者也会定期的去查核过去每个月的查核现在已经调整为每周都在做这样的查核"},{"start":2181.661,"end":2201.073,"text":"根据现行的机制如果查询的时候如果发生到有这样的情况者我们就会立即的要求各单位去做相对的处理我们如果做到我们会透过我们的行政手段包括停止拨款减轻经费的方式来做处理"},{"start":2202.165,"end":2215.72,"text":"公告不適任教練名單目前正朝著法制化的方向來處理並於修法前已經參考了衛福部公布醫事人員性別事件專區的方式來處理為了建立"},{"start":2216.84,"end":2239.847,"text":"安全的運動環境我們已經在上個禮拜發函到明年要辦理的全國中等學校運動會全國大專運動會的主辦單位或地方政府要確實的根據上訴的規定去查核所有的工作人員如果需要我們必須要停止他在這個地方的工作"},{"start":2241.178,"end":2259.705,"text":"至于在课程上面,我们已经做了公版的报告,希望能够让这一类的教材的内容能够列入各单项协会,各个特定体育团体在进行教育的时候,就此主题对所有的教练们进行教育。"},{"start":2261.061,"end":2272.11,"text":"至於有關兒童工作證的部分目前因涉及衛福部的兒童及少年福利及權益保障法目前我們會配合的衛福部持續的做這樣子的"},{"start":2273.672,"end":2297.073,"text":"法規的修訂與辦理至於第三如何防止不適任教練在民間俱樂部流竄的問題衛福部我們會參考衛福部設有違反裁罰專區去公告民間團體可以去查詢這樣子的人二專業運動教練的部分我們依據現行的辦法當中去查核我還可以繼續嗎"},{"start":2299.593,"end":2312.431,"text":"考量教练从事指导工作有犯伤害罪性侵害等事由这是非常非常大的一个影响为了避免其透过申请教练资格检定取得教练证进而取得"},{"start":2313.191,"end":2335.109,"text":"据而获得教练的工作职务教练管理办法已经明定其消极的资格这类的人不得申请教练资格检定针对已经持证者每周会去查询希望透过这样的方式能够让更多的人知道哪些人是不适任甚至不得再聘任"},{"start":2336.414,"end":2358.892,"text":"第四,为了辅导全国性体育团体办理维护儿童少年运动的权益,已在年度的补助核定函中说明了,活动若涉及儿少运动员参与活动,其活动之教练、裁判、工作人员或经指派任务邀请的人员均需具备相应职务之证照或资格。"},{"start":2359.953,"end":2382.881,"text":"並因主動至運動部網站查詢具有合格教練證及不適任教練專區避免有違反上開法律規定或涉及性別平等爭議事件的人員參與以上的報告敬請大約委員持續給予本部支持與指教謝謝謝謝那我們接下來請國教署署長時間一樣是六分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2390.848,"end":2406.244,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位學者專家大家早安運動教練是學生在體育訓練上的重要指導者當然也在學生的品格還有身心發展的過程中是扮演關鍵的角色"},{"start":2407.568,"end":2433.276,"text":"运动部成立之后与本部也会持续地共同为学生建立安全专业跟具有信任度的学校运动体育环境今天的主题我就整体而言有包含各类运动教练的整个管理以及相关事件发生时他的调查"},{"start":2434.216,"end":2458.754,"text":"處理、通報做個簡要的說明首先就整體各類的運動教練目前大家最熟知的包含兩類的專任運動教練跟外聘運動教練這邊大概都分別有其資格、任用跟管理制度的授權執法的立法"},{"start":2460.629,"end":2473.352,"text":"那一旦發生了相關需要調查處理通報的相關事件時若是性平的案件會依性別平等相關的法規"},{"start":2474.676,"end":2492.45,"text":"如果是不當管教體罰霸凌會有依解聘辦法第61條第一項或第二項的規範來進行准用的這個調查在調查之後"},{"start":2494,"end":2522.899,"text":"會就有一些需要進一步判斷或予以通報在流程上會經過如果是專任運動教練會經過學校的相當老師的教評會教練這邊會有教練評審委員會的決定那如果是外聘的那個是用學校他有契約的程序來做處理"},{"start":2524.778,"end":2554.358,"text":"那麼在整體通報上完成的調查那麼我們希望剛剛主席也有特別注意到如果沒有通報那麼很容易在別的地方如果再讓他上線的話那前面的處理就很可惜也會傷害後面的學生所以要非常的嚴正的要求要進行通報但是通報有一個系統這個系統教育部已經建立了"},{"start":2555.238,"end":2579.672,"text":"所以在整體而言如果有發生這樣的一個情勢不管專任運動教練或外聘運動教練可以到剛剛所提的系統來進行登載學校在禁用時也要進行查詢剛剛次長也有提到他們非常用心會定期地去做"},{"start":2581.974,"end":2600.715,"text":"這整套機制那也在流程上看起來是有建立但是在管理面相關單位包含地方政府還有執行單位的學校以及監督單位的兩部都以用心想要讓他更周延但我們想一定有很多地方"},{"start":2601.636,"end":2625.746,"text":"需要與時俱進那今天有很多的學者專家都是我們平常非常景仰那今天邀請來希望也能夠給兩部多一點指導那今年8月28號之後政院有公告就兩部相關的分工以往以來體育署已經建立了非常多想要"},{"start":2627.791,"end":2644.414,"text":"預防甚至阻擋一些不適應的狀況進到校園中那麼有一些規範那兩部也當時是兩署或是在同樣教育部內那做了很好的分工跟處理那現在運動部成立之後8月28號"},{"start":2646.431,"end":2671.178,"text":"政院就整體看到這個重要性也對一些工作那麼有所釐清運動部在接手這些原來體育署的相關工作之後那麼也會依政院的公告在處理那本部也會依政院的公告相關的分工跟運動部做最好最全力的搭配"},{"start":2672.748,"end":2691.355,"text":"我們認為學生在訓練的過程中完全不能有剛剛所提的不當或體罰或霸凌甚至性別事件的發生每一個孩子都是我們的"},{"start":2692.455,"end":2713.888,"text":"重要以及以後的人才每一個孩子在受教育階段或是受訓練的階段都要得到最高的保障因此我們會跟運動部在相關的法制上如果還需要更健全再提請與會的學者專家給我們指導以上報告謝謝大家知道聆聽請會與討論謝謝"},{"start":2720.947,"end":2739.933,"text":"謝謝謝謝那接下來我們再補充介紹一下今天出席的專家學者喔這個台灣女足球員公會的焦佳紅秘書長還有台南一中的郭富奇主任好那接下來呢我們邀請國立體育大學的李在力教授發言那"},{"start":2756.82,"end":2767.629,"text":"主席 各位委員還有各位官員 專家學者跟各位先進大家早安 大家好我做一個PPT來跟大家做一下說明"},{"start":2769.79,"end":2792.586,"text":"其實我們現在運動部的網頁上面是可以找到這三個查詢的系統第一個是合格教練證照的查詢第二個是涉及違法事件不適任教練資訊專區以及在運動愛台灣的平台上面也可以找到其他的運動專業人員的相關資料不過我覺得現在的問題是在於這三個系統"},{"start":2793.467,"end":2812.501,"text":"它的内容其实广度不够然后内容里面的资讯量其实是有限的而且不是一个单一窗口可以被查询的一个方便的状态所以我觉得确实我们查询系统是有一些空间可以继续来进行改善"},{"start":2813.482,"end":2831.679,"text":"那有關於今天所談到的議題我個人會覺得我們可能需要知道一下運動場域因為我們今天看起來原本的會議資料裡面比較集中在學校這個領域裡面但是運動的場域除了學校還有機關 招呼機構"},{"start":2833.681,"end":2852.431,"text":"比如说还有村里社区职场运动场馆运动中心健身房甚至街道比如说我们今天召集人以前在台北市特工盟的时候有推儿童街道游戏或者是我们非常常见的路跑活动还有一些是海洋水域空域山林等等"},{"start":2853.251,"end":2881.236,"text":"那我们参与的运动的参与者除了学生跟学生运动员之外也包含了一般的民众我们市民的运动员当然还有高龄者身心不变者或者是LGBT Plus的或者是运动的专业人员甚至是运动的从业人员等等所以我觉得我们在思考这个问题的时候也许可以不要限制在学校里面也不要限制在儿少这个领域里面"},{"start":2883.28,"end":2905.801,"text":"第三个我想跟大家报告的是法规的妥适性我们现在在国民体育法第六章特定体育团体的第31条里面有去提到运动教练跟运动裁判但是我们的运动教练跟运动裁判并不只限于特定体育团体其他的体育团体也都会有运动教练跟运动裁判的存在"},{"start":2906.522,"end":2925.518,"text":"那所以我个人觉得那我们在国民体育法第十条里面有去定义的体育专业人员的相关的规定好那在国民体育法的十四则第四条有去定义体育专业人员是什么所以我觉得这个法规有必要去做一些整理或者是整合"},{"start":2927.881,"end":2949.833,"text":"那我的底下是我的一些建議第一個是能夠證明為運動專業人員那可能可以包含我們的運動教練運動裁判專業運動教練以及我們現在在我們實施細則裡面所提到救生員國民抵制人指導員運動防護員山域向導潛水指導員漆彈活動指導員武動力飛行運動專業人員等等"},{"start":2954.721,"end":2974.828,"text":"然後在管理機制裡面我們現在在國民體育法裡面比較注重在進修檢定那我覺得我們可能還可以去增加選任查核跟退場的機制那這一部分的機制等一下會再跟大家做報告那有關於選任查核跟退場的建議"},{"start":2976.096,"end":2998.156,"text":"我的建議是能夠借盡教育場域不適應人員通報及查詢的系統能夠來建立運動場域不適應人員通報及查詢系統因為在運動場地裡面可能會造成參與者有一些權利上受損的不必然是教練他也有可能是其他參與者也有可能是從業人員"},{"start":2999.637,"end":3019.678,"text":"所以我个人建议是能够定义是运动场域那这个也许是一个比较负向表列所以我的建议是能够有限度的被查阅那这样可以达到查核有落实安全有保障那第二个建议的系统是运动专业人员查询系统"},{"start":3020.595,"end":3036.492,"text":"那它是一個正向表列建議可以公開查詢那也可以告訴我們的大眾如果有包含我們的產業當我們有需要聘任專業人員的時候應該要聘任擁有證照的人"},{"start":3037.293,"end":3059.978,"text":"那我們就可以要求各個協會或體育團體把這些有證照人員的名單能夠匯入我們的系統那如果他是一個不適任的人員他的證照會被註銷所以他就不會出現在我們的查詢就是運動專業人員查詢系統裡面他不會被查詢到"},{"start":3060.478,"end":3079.429,"text":"它就不应该被任用所以这是选任查跟退场也许可以做的一个正向一个负向的表列那当然这个不好意思运动专业人员的查询系统可以帮助我们的运动专业人员可以被看见被找到增加他的就业的可能性"},{"start":3081.598,"end":3105.383,"text":"那接下來是退場的標準是來自於我們不適任人員的定義我們現在大概比較聚焦在提罰、罷免、確定之後但性平案件的確定或是有一些有罪判定的確定也許都可以作為我們不適任人員的定義那這是有關於法規修訂的建議"},{"start":3106.738,"end":3130.492,"text":"第一個是在第十條裡面建立可以增加選任查核及退場的制度然後能夠在第二項裡面把運動體育專業人員定義為運動專業人員那也可以增加教育訓練的這個項目然後增加第三款中央主管機關應建制運動專業人員"},{"start":3132.213,"end":3145.689,"text":"查核查詢系統及運動場域不適任人員通報及查詢系統以促進運動環境之安全及保護運動參與者之權益那用法規授權給運動部來進行後續的規劃然後"},{"start":3151.451,"end":3178.911,"text":"接下來是國民體育法的實施細則裡面也可以去修訂運動教練運動把運動教練運動專業教練跟運動裁判把它納進來運動專業人員的範圍裡面那如果可以這樣子修訂也許我們第31條就可以廢除掉就不用在特定體育團體的專章裡面去談到運動教練跟運動裁判的資格檢定"},{"start":3179.972,"end":3197.981,"text":"所以這次以上我的一些看法跟建議提供給各位先進參考 謝謝謝謝教授接下來我們有請這位勢力大學的王淑華教授時間一樣是7分鐘 謝謝主席 各位"},{"start":3208.328,"end":3225.729,"text":"前輩大家好今天本來應該是邱偉榮老師那因為他出國所以請我幫忙這邊那其實剛剛講的通報系統其實已經有5個在這邊了那我以教練的身份來講我希望會有一個"},{"start":3226.73,"end":3252.06,"text":"通報系統跟查核系統因為現在在外面來講的話其實俱樂部蠻多的個人的教練也蠻多的以我們學校為主其實我們那個足球場每天都有很多教練可是也有外國人蠻多的那我們也不知道他這些教練是怎麼來的然後他們有沒有審核機制然後對兒童的有沒有傷害到那"},{"start":3253.14,"end":3271.717,"text":"尤其是另外一个就是现在有大概七八十个一个单项协会那如果他可以做一个整合刚讲由跨部会或由数位部来讲一个整合这个部分因为其实现在刚看来的话就是你协会有没有通报那协会单一协会"},{"start":3273.377,"end":3300.983,"text":"有沒有這個機制在這邊因為我們現在目前老師收到就是說OK某某教練他可能到有性侵的部分那可能不予聘任但是他有沒有真的一個機制在那邊讓我們可以上去做一個通報跟查核的一個部分這我是希望可以做一個那個建議那另外剛剛有講到精修部分我可能想到了我來學校之前我想到可能就是預防機制這一邊"},{"start":3302.267,"end":3326.627,"text":"因为进修的部分其实像以我们运动教练证的话其实我们每四年要休息48小时的一个课程那专业运动教练的话目前来讲是每年要有18个小时的一个进修课程但是因为现在我们看到的是比如说初级运动教练中级的部分其实他们在审核机制的时候只有比如说大专"},{"start":3327.287,"end":3350.779,"text":"以上畢業或比如說要修習相關的知識的課程那我要想說如果他們要認證之前有沒有可能再增加一個資能課程就是比如說我們講的性平的部分性騷擾的部分然後霸凌的部分讓至少就是老師他們有一個學習或認知機會不要去做到這些違反的一個事項"},{"start":3354.526,"end":3381.959,"text":"另外一個部分其實我們一直在講說性平這個部分在教育學程來講其實不是只有運動教練其實教師也蠻多的可是我們在教育學程課程裡面其實我們也看不到所謂的比如說性平的部分或霸凌學齡的這個部分所以這個部分是不是可以如果真的要也可以請教育部或跨部會去一個討論是不是有這個部分要把它加到課程裡面以上 謝謝"},{"start":3386.652,"end":3398.146,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們再補充介紹一下台灣運動好事協會的劉柏君理執行長好 那下一位我們發言是陳培語委員"},{"start":3405.786,"end":3421.777,"text":"好 謝謝主席回到教文非常的開心那我要先說非常感謝昭緯安排這次的公聽會不過剛聽了兩個部會的報告我要說非常遺憾因為等一下我要講的我保證你們都聽過但是你們決定用很消極的行政作為來面對我等一下要講的所有個案"},{"start":3422.617,"end":3436.91,"text":"第一個從地府上任之後我們第一個處理的案件是連江縣角力的教練性騷案這個教練性騷案被確認了確認了之後呢校方只給予申戒然後讓這個教練繼續在教育局服務"},{"start":3437.771,"end":3457.912,"text":"重點是這個教練還繼續上場當裁判請問所有的學生看到這個教練情何以堪到2023年9月台南有一個藝術團隊雖然是民間的補習班相關課程但是他長期利用招攬學生上課然後到宮廟去做表演然後持續多年的對多位"},{"start":3458.593,"end":3480.789,"text":"超過十位以上的女學生有各式各樣的性犯罪細節我就不再說我相信大家都非常的清楚相關行政單位到了11月我們發現台北市五人足球教練因為不當對待兒少接受兒少法裁罰公告姓名可是這個被公告姓名的人依然在校園還有體育署當時的體育署所主辦的賽事中橫行出入"},{"start":3481.71,"end":3499.805,"text":"體育署當時說這個教練沒有教練證不關我們的事就完美的切割但是這個人他現在依然在相關協會進出甚至接受相關的體育賽事的補助當中他都有相關角色這些不適任教練我在立法院的質詢當中我都已經多到自己都不知道該怎麼說"},{"start":3501.701,"end":3518.274,"text":"我不知道這些教練所謂不適任教練在體育署過去的政策視野當中是怎麼看待的不論是性騷霸凌不當管教大部分都是小過深切輕輕放下重點是他們會繼續回到教育現場因為有一個非常完美的證照保護系統讓這些人繼續在現場流竄"},{"start":3521.477,"end":3546.666,"text":"我所謂的完美是指的是對這些犯罪人非常的完美但是對我們的學生非常的不公平非常的不正義甚至非常的不恰當當我們口口聲聲說要保護兒少的時候這些主責行政機關的大人卻是對這些加害者輕輕放下甚至在民間揭露已久的松山高中籃球隊的教練孩子們都指正立立相關的成人選手也都指正立立但沒有作為就是沒有作為"},{"start":3547.794,"end":3564.708,"text":"還有影片在英哥工商的排球隊拿球打小孩這件事情相關影片網路上大家也都看得非常清楚依然沒有作為不調查或是深切了事再看下一張我剛剛只是舉了其中一些例子世大女族案"},{"start":3565.859,"end":3566.86,"text":"這些都是在我們辦公室處理過的體育陳情"},{"start":3586.485,"end":3609.455,"text":"我不知道現場大人你們聽了有什麼感觸我自己身為兩個小孩的媽媽我早早的發現在體育現場就有非常多的家庭因為沒有好的文化資源沒有好的法律常識他們的孩子在體育團體當中就是受害者 弱勢的那一方而所有大人完美的系統包圍這些加害者繼續加害我們現場的小孩"},{"start":3609.995,"end":3627.056,"text":"我非常認同剛兩位老師說的當然不要只有兒少可是如果我們光是面對最弱勢的一群兒少都是用這樣的態度我不知道後續的運動部要如何看待過去在體育署時代留下來的問題更不要說現在所有體育署的人全部直接升官到運動部去了"},{"start":3627.737,"end":3643.377,"text":"不要告訴我這些你們沒有記憶不要告訴我這些跟你們一點關係都沒有如果這個國家要承諾保護兒少就請你們大人拿出實質作為過去的體育署都說這是個案啦委員這是商業機制啦我們零容忍部長也曾經說他覺得非常的羞辱"},{"start":3644.378,"end":3672.386,"text":"看到這樣的案件當時的教育部部長可是家長們看到的是這些教練一再的被縱容然後在民間流傳剛剛有一位老師也講到俱樂部的問題還有深屆交差我想要跟大家講一個系統裡面現在最大的困境如果陳培瑜這個教練曾經對某些小孩做出性侵性騷判定成立之後我會被某一個單項協會教練證除名除名之後就看不到我陳培瑜的名字了可是如果今天陳培瑜換考另外一個教練證"},{"start":3673.866,"end":3682.275,"text":"還考過了 我可以在全民運動的場域家長是查不到陳佩玉犯過這個錯的我要告訴大家 往下"},{"start":3683.855,"end":3703.8,"text":"在這兩年我們辦公室不是只有處理個案最後還是要回到法規面來看我們提出過修法建議跟政策建議我們提醒體育署要兒少工作證當時的教育部長也承諾會往下推我要拜託現在的里洋運動部長不管是跟衛福部還是教育部要積極的討論兒少工作證雅琳委員也有提出修法"},{"start":3704.62,"end":3730.862,"text":"而面對兒少教練的問題下一張我認為修法跟有效增能必須要雙管齊下所以在去年我們辦公室也積極要求彰實教育部體育署要開相關的兒少職能課程我不確定這樣的課程成效是什麼但我很感謝至少有走出第一步我希望後續在運動部要持續甚至要昇華下一張我談了這麼多我覺得大家應該可以感覺到我的憤怒跟痛心"},{"start":3732.884,"end":3752.26,"text":"如果過去體育署你們告訴我因為元額不夠 預算不足那我不知道升格之後的運動部如何看待兒少政策這個是現在運動部的分工我們來看一下不管是運動部本部或是全民運動署本署完全看不到有對應兒少的運動政策我要問 請問兒少運動政策對應的相關組織到底在哪裡"},{"start":3756.178,"end":3770.856,"text":"如果還要繼續用體育署過去那個時代在面對所謂不適任教練的態度繼續放在運動部裡面我不知道除了我剛剛列舉的那些案件之外我們還會有多少兒少受害然後繼續用個案繼續縱容繼續申戒放下輕輕了事"},{"start":3777.563,"end":3805.237,"text":"講到這麼多不適應教練的問題喔這件事情我要公開說我們辦公室開過非常多次會議我們把體育署跟法務部找來一起我們問法務部如果用政府資訊公開法的邏輯對於我剛說的那些教練可不可以基於社會公益公告這些被撤銷教練證的人的名單也就是所謂負面表列這件事情這個體育署的法規會說不行啦委員這有個資的問題"},{"start":3806.874,"end":3827.937,"text":"可是法務部都已經明函寫了基於社會公益可以政府資訊公開但體育署依然置之不理我要問運動部你們接下來如何看這個問題所有因為相關不當對待體罰性犯件的相關案件的不適任教練名單到底要不要公開你們只是為了保障大人的工作權嗎"},{"start":3829.498,"end":3857.82,"text":"當全民運動署接下來可能每年有非常多預算要去支援全民運動的現場有非常多不知道發生過什麼事情的教練就在現場每天跟我們的孩子相處在一起請問運動部要繼續縱容嗎所以我不知道會不會是同一批法規委員繼續從體育署到了運動部去而法規委員你們還要用一樣的解釋嗎法務部都已經告訴過你們了法務部也有給之前的體育署相關函文"},{"start":3859.321,"end":3882.542,"text":"非常沉痛时间不多我再次说修法跟政策并行请以儿少运动教练证搭配儿少教练职能课程正式坊间有非常多没有持证的教练存在的事实让儿少教练监理的死角降到最低再来针对劣迹教练就是我刚刚说这些做出非常多不当对待体罚霸凌性犯罪的这些教练"},{"start":3883.263,"end":3902.534,"text":"在修法之前請你們原用政府資訊公開法的精神先公佈教練證照遭到撤銷的名單可以不負理由我可以接受可是請公告請讓我們家長上網查的時候剛有一位老師說三大系統老師在你說那三大系統完全找不到被撤照教練的名單"},{"start":3903.715,"end":3928.517,"text":"我們的家長不知道這個人有沒有做過什麼對兒少不當的事情因為體育署過去完美的保護了這些人我再次強調完美的保護了這些人最後要拜託運動部我剛說了你們新的法規組織裡面關於兒少的專責單位兒少運動相關政策不知道會放在哪些你們的部門裡頭我要拜託落實運動部以國民的福祉而不是以奪牌為目標"},{"start":3929.358,"end":3951.04,"text":"昨天總統在公開場合說要成立兒家署我們非常樂意看到這個主持我要問衛福部都已經知道兒少相關事務必須要一個署來應對而運動部難道不用以兒少為目標去成立專責的單位來討論嗎以上 謝謝謝謝陳佩玉委員那接下來我們有請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":3962.93,"end":3977.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席然後也謝謝召委陳秀寶他安排了這樣子的一個題目為全民所重視的這個議題當然也謝謝今天在場的各位專家學者然後來現場提供我們做立法者的一個參考"},{"start":3978.863,"end":3996.536,"text":"那針對如何淘汰不適任教練跟建立完善運動教練制度的查核因為運動教練他長期的近距離的去接觸耳哨權力不對等然後容易發生性貧跟性侵害的這樣的風險然後需要強化這個保護機制"},{"start":4000.72,"end":4014.534,"text":"本席有以下的主張尤其是在我們現在看到的是運動部跟體育運動部跟教育部他們有提出來專案裡面的報告當中但是我特別要對運動部這邊提出了一個很重要的譴責"},{"start":4016.356,"end":4028.784,"text":"雖然現在有提出來但是目前就是對不適任的教練的這個公告的機制就是因為缺乏法源基礎而沒有公告那造成了非常多的風險繼續在發生那因此我強調是說第一個必須要正視制度漏洞導致兒少受害的這個現況那現在的這個制度絕對沒有辦法有效的阻隔不適任教練他的跨場域的這個任教那形成了非常重大的一個風險"},{"start":4046.275,"end":4069.7,"text":"依照公聽會的討論問題主要有這三點第一個是因應教練他的資格跟兒少保護的關聯性低所以必須要強調到兒少保護的這樣的一個課程所以運動部要強化這個兒少的認知跟保護的課程給教練並建立系統化的查核制度第二點"},{"start":4070.68,"end":4090.21,"text":"曾對於有前科或是不當行為者他仍可以轉場或是改名到重辦運動的現場這樣的事情必須就顯示出來跨體系的防護跟退場機制不完整急需要建立不適任教練的一個資料庫"},{"start":4091.391,"end":4098.178,"text":"那第三個呢 特別是針對到民間的俱樂部他的監管是非常鬆散但我們上個禮拜都已經請了運動部的"},{"start":4102.628,"end":4124.63,"text":"政府次長來針對所謂的協會的管理這部分的確呈現到非常大的問題那另外一個問題就在於教練他測證他是由運動部來處理那教學登記的是由地方政府來輔導但中間缺乏明確的教練進場的查核規範導致家長根本無法得知教練的背景"},{"start":4125.851,"end":4147.975,"text":"那對現在有的這個修法提案呢本席也提出了三項的補強第一項呢必須要防範到惡意的檢舉那這邊可以借盡教師法對於沒有設防衛機制這一部分呢他如果沒有設計這個機制的話呢制度呢恐怕會被濫用那傷害無辜的教練跟專業他的聲譽那應該要規定檢舉人呢應該提出具體"},{"start":4153.476,"end":4168.257,"text":"具名的而且應該有提出具體證據那惡意的或者不實的檢舉者的應該要負到法律責任避免成為制度成為運動版的這個校式會議的翻版那第二個呢在應該考慮到"},{"start":4169.718,"end":4194.573,"text":"台北市在地方政府上實際上有一個已經有實例出現了他們有一個幼兒園不適任人員的公告專區是可以查詢的大家也可以現在馬上上台北市政府去看到那這個專區裡面的它這個成功公告就把公告之後的這個出現到有這樣不適任的被發生傷害的這種事件就大幅的減少"},{"start":4197.597,"end":4204.572,"text":"該專區具備主動查詢的功能並在法律授權下永久公告教練不適合"},{"start":4207.408,"end":4235.286,"text":"應在法律授權下永久的公告涉及性別及不當對待者的資訊運動部應該參照這樣的模式在禁訴在把法治完備的情況之下建置運動教練不適任人員的公告專區目前我們也看到在運動部的報告當中有提到說他們要把查到法治化去處理11月今年的9月3號這部分也要把裁判書等等再加上我想"},{"start":4236.167,"end":4254.764,"text":"地方政府台北市都可以做到運動部依照這樣的依照前例去進行也不會是大問題那這個部分就應該把公開教練的姓名的證號不適任的室友還有涉及機構及他登記號等資訊呢永久的保留裁罰的處理資料"},{"start":4256.725,"end":4273.095,"text":"第三個 應該強化檢舉委員跟調查委員的迴避機制避免出現求援兼裁判的利益衝突調查委員必須由中立專業人士組成並公開調查程序與證據基礎確保程序上的正義"},{"start":4277.631,"end":4306.172,"text":"在具体的修法方面本席提出了三项建议第一个是修正国民体育法建立儿少保护背景的查核制度运动部应该每月的借接法务部跟卫福部及地方政府的资料库并参照澳洲的模式来建立儿少工作的认证要求教练要修毕课程通过查核才来取得这样的证照"},{"start":4307.335,"end":4332.56,"text":"第二個是要建置不適任運動人員跟教練的查詢系統與公告專區納入教練的資料不適任的行為類型處分內容跟公告期間基於公共利益的一個需求在政府的公開資訊這部分進行應該其實都不是問題的並提供關鍵字搜尋永久公開才能達到建立一個安全的運動環境"},{"start":4334.54,"end":4354.258,"text":"第三 應該建立獨立透明的調查程序由行政 法律 兒少保護跟運動界來組成運動教練調查委員會 明定檢舉的事項 作業還有審查時程跟調查的期限 也要落實迴避規範"},{"start":4356.96,"end":4363.996,"text":"同時對於惡意檢舉者規定法律責任包含無告罪的追究名譽損害賠償跟列管的措施"},{"start":4365.274,"end":4386.534,"text":"最後我們要呼籲這個制度必須同時達到兩個目標第一個就談判真正不適任的教練而且要避免這個制度被利用作為報復或者私鬥的工具台北市的幼兒園不適任人員的公告的經驗證明公開透明的機制能夠保護兒少而迴避"},{"start":4388.596,"end":4413.81,"text":"和迴避規範獨立調查與惡意檢舉的責任則另外也保障了程序正義本席期待運動部能夠在修法當中參考到各方面的基建尤其今天特別我們立法院召開了這樣子的公聽會就是希望把各種的機制把它納入起來等到未來在修法的時候達到真正去建立一個真正安全透明而且可靠的一個運動環境好 謝謝"},{"start":4418.846,"end":4420.551,"text":"謝謝 那接下來我們請人民教育基金會的馮喬安執行長"},{"start":4429.809,"end":4453.249,"text":"委員還有各位先進 大家好我是人本交易經營會的執行長喬蘭很感謝立法院有召開這次的公聽會討論這個不適任教練的淘汰也期待說在這次的公聽會結束之後我們相關的保護兒少的各種措施可以很快的具體的啟動我們接著就就人本交易經營會在第一線的食物現場所看到的一些現象跟問題提出一些討論"},{"start":4455.07,"end":4481.766,"text":"首先就是說我們在我們處理的個案的經驗當中常發現事實上這些行為可能在一般教室如果這樣做就會當成是違法然後會被送教評會來處理可是一旦是教練這樣做的時候就會用這是一個訓練或者是體能的訓練等等的作為藉口包括2020年的游泳隊的事情就是教練是用浮板去丟小孩的頭"},{"start":4482.887,"end":4500.365,"text":"但是呢那個教評會的調查就是學校的調查就是說教練是向水道丟啦不是向人丟只是為了提醒他然後另外在2021年的這個案子呢就是學校調查學校就說這是呢屬於這個學生可以體適的可以負荷的範圍啦算是體罰跑了17圈操場"},{"start":4502.987,"end":4514.258,"text":"那接著呢這個案例2021年這個案例我想是大家心目中都是無法揮不可能把它放到不應該放到的案子就是有孩子因為7歲小孩被摔100次的雙吊銹結果他過世了"},{"start":4519.077,"end":4539.389,"text":"同樣的我們發現另外一個問題是在目前現有機制當中有一些他很明顯有他的行為有問題的教練他卻還是可以在他的領域當中進行教練的工作或教練的身份跟角色包括就是這個桌球隊教練他後來就認知到一個乒乓球教師了雖然他被解聘"},{"start":4540.51,"end":4564.595,"text":"桃園清溪國中的棒球隊教練他也被解聘但是呢在解聘期間他還是可以在高雄成為義工用義工的名義擔任教練然後還可以帶隊比賽跟指導那同時屏東這位籃球隊的教練呢他是違反性騷擾防治法可是他2017年11月到2023年2月22日都還可以在學校擔任籃球教練在這過程當中他還是有對女童猥褻請問這些責任誰要負"},{"start":4566.855,"end":4584.118,"text":"台中的教練的這個案子呢最近也是上了媒體了大家也看到這個狀況呢當時政府本來機制是說我們機制已經有可以勾忌了有勾忌的機制了但是校方疏忽了沒有去勾忌那誰來負這個責任誰會追究這個責任誰會要求勾忌要完整"},{"start":4587.014,"end":4609.899,"text":"在2023年,人本教育基金會跟陳培宜委員,我們有舉辦了一個公聽會,雖然這個公聽會不是由招委招開的,所以它就是一個民間跟委員一起招開的一個公聽會,那這個公聽會當中呢,其實我們就已經提出來了,就是在國民教育法應該要明文禁止身心傷害跟不當訓練,那同時要建立制度,尤其在針對要帶兒少的教練,"},{"start":4610.839,"end":4632.041,"text":"要處理兒少運動的教練他應該要有一個加簽制度能夠確保他對兒少的身心的了解以及他能夠遵守兒少教練應該有的基本的倫理的準則同時我們也認為不適應的運動的人員應該要處理機制跟追蹤同時因為傷害兒童而被解聘的教練他不應該也"},{"start":4634.073,"end":4655.994,"text":"他不應該隨便可以再繼續從事兒童的訓練的工作那同時呢這個處理的範圍應該包含非特定體育團體運動場館民間俱樂部訓練的班級通通要放進來因為我們必須以兒少為中心來思考這件事而不是以各行政部門的分工職責而把大部分的兒少漏掉了"},{"start":4658.274,"end":4678.944,"text":"同時在2024年2月監察院也針對台中柔道案有提出一個糾正報告同時相對應的包括教育部等等又有回應做了哪些相關的處理所以各位可以看到在這一年的設施改善情形當中會有一個教練證照查詢系統出現了在2020年"},{"start":4679.924,"end":4704.739,"text":"但是呢 當時監察委員以及民間都要求說當藉由政府場館來進行各種運動訓練的時候應該要列館啊 不能夠當成好像是個人的事情那我們在相關的規範上 只有把技職教學者放進來為什麼是技職教學者才放進來 因為當時是柔道案件我們不能因為柔道案件把全部的運動項目納進來一起照顧 一起處理嗎"},{"start":4707.256,"end":4725.483,"text":"接著我們也很感謝體育署運動部他們有弄了一些就是相關的知能的進修課程但是我們也確實在教授的教學影片當中發現有些講師他的說法會說盡量不要讓我們在投影片上這些身體體法的樣態出現在你的課程課表中"},{"start":4726.933,"end":4748.51,"text":"這些樣態是什麼呢?是教育部的輔導管教辦法措施裡面所提到的體罰的樣態。講師的說法反而是說,你難免會做出類似的動作,但是不要列上去。問題是說,體罰的問題是來自於它是出於處罰為目的所進行的。出於處罰為目的進行的行為不可以稱之為體能訓練。"},{"start":4751.983,"end":4777.293,"text":"接着我们看到2023年南英商工的案子这个案子其实当时在新闻上也是有蛮大篇幅的报道因为教练的作为他的作为已经是造成了儿少全法的违法同时因为霸凌成立被解聘包括他有连坐法当时教练在调查报告当中他的说法是说用篮球丢球员是正常的吧"},{"start":4778.462,"end":4793.711,"text":"那這些都是訓練的一環是要培養他們的團隊精神那目前這個教練是被解聘了而且我們會看到社會局因為這個教練違反兒少全法於是他有公告然後同時秀出他的名字劉秀黃"},{"start":4795.032,"end":4823.301,"text":"我們也看到在法務部裡面因為他被公開判決了就是說他被經由檢察官提起公訴判決他的強制罪尤其徒刑五個月而他也被公告了但是我們在相關的查詢系統裡不知道這個教練曾經違反過這些兒少選法以及強制罪的問題這就是我目前檢核系統的問題同時我們也看到在花蓮的李建維教練他目前沒有教練證"},{"start":4824.397,"end":4848.633,"text":"但他仍然在公立的場所裡頭進行相關的教練工作而且他還跟傅坤祺委員辦公室的主任一起來剪彩甚至在今年的5月他還可以帶團去日本參加羽球比賽但是他所犯的罪是什麼他是猥褻是性侵為什麼我們可以這麼的輕忽"},{"start":4850.834,"end":4872.161,"text":"那同時這些的狀況是不好意思我很快的結束我的談話同時這幾個教練的狀況是他是嚴重體罰但他可以立刻被該校要聘用雖然說經過教聘會他已經被終止聘約有終局停聘可是這個被終止聘約的蔡教練被解聘之後他在馬上下個學期就應聘回原學校"},{"start":4873.228,"end":4880.043,"text":"是被家長發現了之後呢被抗議然後才沒有聘用的為什麼我們有這麼多漏洞可以發生這麼多事情"},{"start":4882.028,"end":4910.267,"text":"那事實上到目前為止從2023年之後我們會看到當時的訴求目前的狀況是如何當時訴求希望能夠立法明文禁止運動訓練中國身心傷害目前沒有然後目前也沒有強制要求我們的兒少要接觸兒少的教練要具備對兒少運動訓練的安全職能也就是我們一直在提的兒少教練的加薪制度剛剛委員有提到類似的制度你要接觸兒少的教練你是否要有另外一個檢核機制而不是只交給單項協會那個教練"},{"start":4912.769,"end":4925.498,"text":"同時不適任運動人員的追蹤機制是不夠完善的橫向通報是有漏洞的政兆的查詢系統也沒有揭露不適任的記錄同時政府沒有禁止提供公立場地給不適任教練來訓練兒少"},{"start":4927.335,"end":4956.357,"text":"同時在這些運動場館俱樂部訓練班私人教練的民間教練的這個問題呢有不適任教練的預防調查橫向通報跟對不適任者執教開罰的機制通通是沒有的也就是我們沒有一個對於尤其我們可以把線劃在兒少對兒少的這個教練的不適任的相關的檢舉制度申訴制度處理制度今天我們就算可以查核可以去製造庫查核裡面有任何的檢舉制度裡面有任何的處理制度裡面有調查制度"},{"start":4956.937,"end":4981.688,"text":"你沒有東西可以查核啊因為他沒有經過這些調查機制啊但同時非特定體育團體是沒有被納進來這些預防跟處理的機制當中的那我們也看到在民間的這個部分就留給大家看一下就是說市長我們看到在民間完全沒有相關不適任教練的預防跟處理機制補習班老師的部分目前透過各個MeToo的問題等等已經有相當的處理了但民間教練的部分完全沒有"},{"start":4983.692,"end":5004.526,"text":"所以這幾個我們列出來是覺得運動部就算還沒有修法之前馬上就可以做的事情包括教練的專業倫理的指引等等包括橫向的聯繫通報機制的問題包括要建立協會跟民間場館不適合教練的預防機制等等這些我們特別要再強調一次以上都應該要含非特定體育團體"},{"start":5008.207,"end":5027.537,"text":"建築修法的部分我們的建議就是包含要修法禁止運動訓練中的身心傷害跟不當訓練同時就是兒少運動教練要有一個加簽制度讓我們可以透過對兒少的照顧跟關心跟保護也能夠把這個制度建立起來同時就是協會跟民間場館當中的問題"},{"start":5029.258,"end":5048.809,"text":"以及就是要有一個如果說對於這個不適任教練的預防調查處理橫向通報機制沒有處理比如台中那個學校那他的相關罰則應該要被處理以上 謝謝大家謝謝那我們接下來邀請我們的足球協會足球發展協會的石明晉理事長"},{"start":5062.669,"end":5078.184,"text":"大家好我今天比較聚焦在整個修法上面因為這是一個修法的公聽會所以我提出一些意見可能在接下來的修正草案裡面或者是在執法裡面的辦法我們可以去注意到的一些事情"},{"start":5079.685,"end":5098.502,"text":"那首先第一個我們講到說修法第31條裡面首先我先看到的是它裡面還是有一些不足因為我們在計程車的職業登記的辦法裡面其實還有道館條例裡面所規定的犯罪項目其實比我們現在看到的31條更多包括"},{"start":5100.223,"end":5115.112,"text":"窃盜包括搶奪包括組織犯罪這些其實對我們的兒少或者是運動教育其實都有可能造成蠻大的影響那我們在列舉這些犯罪項目裡面的時候有一些其實是可以考慮進去的可以增加"},{"start":5116.132,"end":5131.363,"text":"那第二個是我們在第十條之二裡面聘用未持有兒童未持有兒童及少年工作等從事訓練的人那我們在補教法裡面其實有規定這些聘用的單位如果你有發動"},{"start":5132.583,"end":5150.789,"text":"發現這些情勢其實你要主動的通報不是說我不聘用你而已如果你有發現這些情況你這些聘用單位其實你要主動的去通報相關的主管機關然後另外一個就是我們剛才有提到說家長或者是這些接受訓練的人員怎麼樣知道說"},{"start":5153.257,"end":5180.24,"text":"我這些訓練的教練是不是有符合第一個除了查詢系統之外那在包括計程車的職業登記證大家計程車都會看到上面必須秀出它的證照那如果你是開那個化學車你要載那個化學車 毒物車或者是那種災害防治車其實你的證照是要秀在你的車子上面所以我們是不是應該要規定說你在訓練的時候你要掛你的證照"},{"start":5181.201,"end":5206.221,"text":"就好像我們餐飲業會貼它的那個什麼丙級廚師 乙級廚師等等那你在訓練的場所裡面你讓家長跟受訓練的有時候不一定是家長嘛我們有可能成人去接受這一些運動的訓練的時候你應該要主動的出示你的合格的證照那甚至不一定要我每一次都要去查詢那我至少知道說你是符合哪一個等級或者是擁有什麼樣的一個證照"},{"start":5207.142,"end":5223.138,"text":"那這個在教學場所俱樂部或者在學校裡面都可以制定相關的規定那另外是我們知道道館條例35條裡面對於酒後駕車它其實只是一個交通違規它就可以公佈它的姓名照片跟違法事實"},{"start":5224.279,"end":5251.775,"text":"所以如果說我們是對於不當不適任還沒有到刑事責任的其實我們就可以直接用這個符合公共利益的方式先公佈這些不適任教練或者是已經有爭議行為的教練也許他的證招還沒有被撤銷或者是還沒有犯罪被確定的其實都可以公開那這些不適任如果說我們在起訴之後或者是"},{"start":5252.735,"end":5267.822,"text":"起訴之後我們就可以直接先調扣他的證照那當然如果他判決無罪這個證照就可以發還但是如果是確定的話那我們就是要吊銷而且是不得再考那另外呢如果是不當不適任的我們還要"},{"start":5270.031,"end":5285.625,"text":"建立他的管制跟處罰的機制比如說管制多少年不可以再去考教練證照或者是不可以再考其他不同類型的教練證照這個我們應該法律上面明文要來去管理然後另外呢"},{"start":5286.606,"end":5315.541,"text":"在職業登記辦法的第16條裡面它裡面有規定對於這一些職業計程車駕駛人就職業駕駛人他本身的犯罪資料或者是他裡面被管制或者人有不適當行為的資料呢他必須在政府機關裡面做資料的利用跟交流也就是說如果你是在運動部發現他有不當的行為你應該要通報教育部內政部如果是兒少的你還要通報衛福部那相反的"},{"start":5316.121,"end":5341.115,"text":"反向就是如果你在衛福部這邊發現這個人有違反兒少保護的事項的時候他也應該去通報教育部內政部或者是運動部那他要建立一個共同的查詢系統我們知道這個資訊的交流呢一個是關係人的查詢因為不教辦法裡面規定你要聘用之前你必須向相關的主管機關去查詢這個人過去有沒有不當教學或者是不是有持有相關的證照"},{"start":5341.855,"end":5355.99,"text":"第二個就是我們的政府內部的交流第三個是公開的資訊揭露其實這三個方向是這三個資料庫都應該去建立因為其實它公開的程度並不一樣就好像有一些人他目前處於爭議案子還在調查當中"},{"start":5359.133,"end":5374.363,"text":"那可能你不適合把它公開可是你在教學機關在聘用的時候或者是我們內部的執法單位可以彼此交流相關的資訊必須要互相通報這一件事情我覺得要建立不同"},{"start":5375.143,"end":5391.779,"text":"程度不同規格的內部的資料交流跟外部的公開資料然後接下來就是我們今天有競技師的人來嘛對不對那我們所謂的運動項目是不是只有競技師裡面所屬的項目包括我們有一些"},{"start":5393.18,"end":5408.376,"text":"在土風舞教學的啦或者是這種什麼韻律操的或者是棋藝類型的競技大家知道棋藝類型其實它在運動部裡面有很多也是接受到運動部的補助那到底我們在"},{"start":5409.857,"end":5426.193,"text":"運動部應該要管理的項目裡面包含了哪些那我覺得除了類型之外還有包括所謂的場域例如是在我們的運動場館或者是體育場裡面的教學你只要在這裡教我不管你教什麼反正我就是要你"},{"start":5426.713,"end":5454.034,"text":"必須擁有相關的這個證照或者是證明然後你不可以有相關的犯罪記錄那為什麼要通報教育部運動部內政部呢其實這一些過程裡面如果你通報內政部了那警政署的員警在在這個體育館旁邊在體育場上面如果是巡邏有發現相關的這些事證的時候他一樣可以去集合查詢並且預先做出防範那我覺得說在這幾個"},{"start":5455.295,"end":5477.096,"text":"幾個項目裡面可能在未來的修法還有包括後續的執法裡面都可以把這些考量把它列進去那我今天比較關注在修法的方面那謝謝大家謝謝那我們接下來請專業教練協會的副秘書長林俊勇副秘書長發言"},{"start":5486.332,"end":5506.628,"text":"主席各位委員各位專家學者好我是中華民國專專協會副秘書長今天委託我們邱教練因為邱教練他在美國進修就委託我來做一些簡單的一些建議跟報告那我們協會有內部有針對就是教練素養以及聘證制度有一些幾點的建議"},{"start":5510.411,"end":5537.711,"text":"我們認為當前的教練的聘任的有一些現況大概有分兩種一個是學校系統的法官機制然後一個多元聘任的管道然後這兩個部分就是因為我們覺得剛才如次長有報告過說其實在學校聘任的教練他的背景專業經歷其實都有透過嚴格的稽查跟審核所以這些機制已經保障了校園內的教練的一個適任性並以淘汰許多不適任的教練"},{"start":5538.672,"end":5562.763,"text":"但為什麼這麼多教練還是會有一些素養上可能有一些不夠全面我們認為是因為太多多元的拼證管道因為我們現在專教練拼證管道有計劃性的也有國家訓練中心的一些拼證的方法其實管道是非常多但教練素養其實是我們比較擔心的一點"},{"start":5566.994,"end":5592.068,"text":"那我們協會這邊有兩個就是建議行動的方案建議就是說第一個如果可以的話我們希望可以就是統一拼證的標準就是因為我們主要在學校正值的服務是透過教育人員拼證的條例的一個辦法希望能確保教練有專業的品德標準但當然這個費用確實可能需要一些龐大的支付不過"},{"start":5593.48,"end":5609.483,"text":"有教育人員評論方法的話等一下以下會有一些簡單補充為什麼我們需要用可以用統一的評論標準那第二個是教練養成的教練養成制度我們希望就是教練的證照取得後我們需要還要透過實習以及導師制度來提升我們教練的專業素養"},{"start":5612.915,"end":5633.568,"text":"那我們如果用教育人員拼准辦法的話會有什麼的優勢就是第一個的話我們可以有標準化的審核可以選擇他的學金力以及他的專業的一個評估那第二個的話我們教育拼准辦法考試我們有考試的一個制度可以統一的檢定他的專業能力那當然就是最後還能確保教研團的一個素素養"},{"start":5636.807,"end":5651.065,"text":"教練養成的機制因為我們知道我們專專教練證照取得通常是透過運動員選手的一個成績機制所以我們希望建立一個養成機制當然就是在年初的時候"},{"start":5652.113,"end":5667.424,"text":"有接受柯之恩立委的一個邀請然後當然有包括現在的之前的署長鄭志東署長我們其實我們內部討論其實我們協會這邊就已經有訂出一個草案草案到我們 送到我們執行體育署不過執行體育署因為可能在做"},{"start":5668.144,"end":5691.745,"text":"跟運動部的整合所以一直沒有後續的一個規劃不過我們協會這邊有訂出一個草案出來就是給給樹林運動部這邊一些建議然後我們這邊有以下的四點建議就是說希望我們在取證後以後當然需要一些還是需要一些專業的一些理論的一個知識所以說我們在我們草案部分的話我們有明訂一些我們需要接受的一些理論的一個背景"},{"start":5692.466,"end":5720.609,"text":"那第二個就是說在教練實務的時期的話我們需要透過一個自身的領導者來嚴定就是取證後的教練包括還有他的教學管理還有訓練計劃擬定以及危機處理那就是我們可以還訂定導師的制度就是在有限的年限還是這些導師的話還是可以協助這些剛取證的一個職場的教練然後最後當然希望成功的將教練可以"},{"start":5721.826,"end":5748.817,"text":"提升他的教學品質那導師的制度核心價值就是有以上的四點可以三點就是經驗傳承還有實務訓練以及轉正的一個提升那至於剛剛有聽到許多委員有報告就是說像一些有像不適正的教練最後會延伸流算到四人運動部的俱樂部這邊那協會這邊有討論到一些重點"},{"start":5752.603,"end":5776.104,"text":"我們希望因為主要是非學校系統的教練他的第一個就是包括俱樂部包括運動中心這邊拼的方法其實不一然後審核的標準非常寬鬆有可能有安全保護漏洞的一個問題然後我們這邊是有建議說是不是可以在補教法這邊可以沿著我們的"},{"start":5777.799,"end":5803.122,"text":"俱乐部的这边的规范或者是严引一些类似补教法的这些然后要求运动中心跟俱乐部来执行要求教练的一个审定跟考核所以我们是希望可以借助补教法的一个规范然后定定标准然后来实施俱乐部来聘任教练的一个办法"},{"start":5805.885,"end":5832.842,"text":"那這個部分就是說我們可以強化教練的背景他可以第一個可以審查他有沒有犯罪的紀錄然後可以在他的專業證照跟資歷可以審的然後我們最重要的是可以再要求他在期定期的在教育的規範因為現在許多的取證的教練其實他不像我們有教育能源拼人辦法就是說我們需要需要去進修去實習那如果有這個制度的話也可以讓我們的許多的"},{"start":5834.083,"end":5853.966,"text":"流傳到俱樂部的教練 他必須要定期的再去接受教育那在俱樂部的部分的話 也可以就是擬定這三種 就是保護學生的一些規範 教學空間還有他教學內容的一個這個制度 包括他有申訴的管道"},{"start":5855.678,"end":5873.852,"text":"最後我們希望打造就是學校系統有一個非常嚴謹的一個教育任員的一個標準然後運動中心可以比照有補教界的一個補教法的一個規範機制然後學生這邊有一個安全的一個申訴管道然後最後希望可以推動安全一個優質的教育謝謝 以上報告"},{"start":5880.287,"end":5889.153,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請這個民族時鐘的專案運動教練許秀敏那在許秀敏專案運動教練報告完結束之後呢我們會休息10分鐘"},{"start":5893.827,"end":5918.856,"text":"主席各位委員各位專家學者先進大家早安我是台北市民主時鐘運動專任教練許秀敏很開心今天可以代表運動專任教練然後站在這邊跟大家去做一些建議那我先說一下立場的部分因為我是第一線就是運動專任教練服務的一個部分"},{"start":5919.966,"end":5946.178,"text":"那在於體育署的部分還有教育局的部分其實我要站在運動專業教育立場先講一下就是說其實我們是有被考核的我每三年都要被體育署考核一次我每一年學校都要考核一次要送教育局那其實重複的是每一年都在做那這個部分我想說還是講一下我的立場"},{"start":5947.418,"end":5971.69,"text":"因為我曾經是一個合格的體育老師然後在92年我轉任了運動專人教練那是因為我的理想跟志向我希望在一個基層的一個運動的一個部分可以服務然後可以讓所有的選手們可以更多人受益那在這個領域裡面其實在這個部分"},{"start":5972.23,"end":5998.969,"text":"我想各位委員可能有很多對運動專業教練可能立場會不太一樣那基於我是老師教練出來的我的建議是如果師資有培育法那為什麼教練沒有師資培育法如果我們想要培育更多的運動選手來傳承然後讓這個國家的體育變得更好為什麼"},{"start":6000.399,"end":6028.861,"text":"學生不能有一個叫運動專練教練師資培育法那這個運動專練教練師資培育法裡面其實就可以包含很多的課程包含我們剛講的兒少性平這個部分其實都涵蓋在裡面那我覺得說因為我自己從老師轉任教練所以所有的課程我都上過包括剛剛我們講的兒少運動訓練知能研習其實我也去上過"},{"start":6029.762,"end":6052.702,"text":"那所有的我站在第一線我看了很多學者啦很多立委其實我們很遺憾的是很多運動專業教練有發生這樣的事情可是這不能代表所有運動專業教練的錯那我們現在只是想要去救這個體育我們怎麼樣去可以讓這些運動專業教練可以在他的領域裡面發光發熱這個我會建議是老師"},{"start":6057.086,"end":6081.175,"text":"有培育法教練應該也要有實質培育法可以像我這樣子從老師然後轉到運動專業教練那我想他的所有的專業知識還有他的教練的領域裡面我想他應該是會更面面俱到那這個是我個人的一個建議那當然總結裡面的話我是希望說"},{"start":6082.563,"end":6106.423,"text":"我們今天大家都應該站在同一條線上那我覺得說很多運動專業教練是很辛苦的我當然不能說我自己很辛苦我365天我自己的父親我才回去探望過三次那我所有的時間都奉獻給所有的青少年的孩子我想盡辦法讓他們變成跟我一樣可以"},{"start":6107.023,"end":6123.133,"text":"更好的一個教練更好的一個老師然後未來可以出這個社會為大家而服務所以我今天站在這裡我想要建議的是希望各位專家委員還有立委們可不可以一起來努力就是"},{"start":6124.713,"end":6147.564,"text":"讓教練也有一個叫師之培育法在學生的時代裡面讓他去修課然後我們慢慢去培養他然後讓他有個專業的知識跟專業的證照然後出來這個社會可以在為更多的青少年的小朋友基層的一個體育運動發展然後促進更好的一個未來謝謝以上是我的建議謝謝謝謝那我們接下來先休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6158.88,"end":6186.438,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":6188.82,"end":6193.542,"text":"那先給你們,因為剛主任怕你們這邊沒有喔真的嗎?喔,OK他在這裡他在這裡"},{"start":6776.949,"end":6786.305,"text":"好那我們接下來就繼續開會喔那我們接下來請東元國小的棒球隊總教練賴敏楠發言 謝謝"},{"start":6792.697,"end":6809.493,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家早安我是台北市萬華區東原國小棒球隊專任教練賴明南那麼我今天站在這邊有兩點要提出討論那麼第一點就是所謂淘汰的不適任"},{"start":6810.274,"end":6833.159,"text":"就我自己了解那麼我在東元國小任教已經32年了那誠如前一位教練說的當年我們也是可以當所有的老師那麼我當年是教育部體育師招聘的約聘顧教練那麼在當時一年一聘而薪資又不高那麼我們當時"},{"start":6835.439,"end":6864.619,"text":"我是第七期那時候辦了七期我是最後一期所以在那個時候的時空背景下我們一些教練都執著在訓練場上那麼教師是在課堂上那麼我們教練要教又要練所以我覺得我們工作也不輕鬆於所謂的教師所以我一直堅持執著要在運動場上去指教因為我喜歡訓練那我執著我自己的運動"},{"start":6865.599,"end":6893.392,"text":"那麼在98年也就是說我們一些一年一聘的教練為了爭取我們的權益也找了很多立法委員也修法通過才有所謂的正式的教師任用條例的專任教練那麼由各縣市招聘那我要講的第一個問題就是說招聘當然我想不是只有教練不是人啦我們也知道我們剛剛人本那邊有講到"},{"start":6894.292,"end":6922.475,"text":"台中的教練那個是真正的一個教練那其實我也知道另外一個南投他是有老師他本身是教師他也是去教學生打球那也發生了性平的事情目前應該還在議案中應該有被判刑那麼這個不是任我自己遇到的當然我不講誰就是說那個考核機制可能需要做改變譬如說"},{"start":6924.765,"end":6952.54,"text":"某個學校的教練霸凌被校安通報那校安通報教育局就請學校召開教評會請學校召開教評會這次我實際可以從別的學校聽到那那個教練真的可能屢犯了喔他第一次那學校教評會是七人小組那這七人小組可能會不會對這個教練或怎麼找來有沒有壓力或有人情世故或者是"},{"start":6953.581,"end":6958.989,"text":"我們說這個社會我們大家都不想當壞人那在這個七人小組的考核之中可能就"},{"start":6960.625,"end":6984.328,"text":"輕輕的放下要不然就給他一等不能拿考核獎金然後還續任就是可能留校查看那過了幾年可是這個教練還在但是據我了解還在犯在犯又同樣的循環教育局又通報來學校再繼續七人小組去考核那這個教練到現在據我了解"},{"start":6984.989,"end":7003.854,"text":"好像還在那這個如果等到犯了大案子傷害到小孩子不可收拾的時候可能人本又跳出來了又一粒米壞了一鍋粥那這個考核制度我覺得需要做一個是不是要修法還是需要做一個修正這是第一個那麼第二個"},{"start":7005.356,"end":7019.794,"text":"我們現在知道說我們98年國民體育法通過之後我是在那一批通過之後也是經過所謂的考試那麼我進入了動用國小服務到現在也所謂的教育任用條例正式的"},{"start":7020.715,"end":7036.749,"text":"正式教練那麼國民體育法第16條滿三年要考核一次滿三年可是現在中央的制定我們任用教育人員任用條例我們跟學校老師一樣在學校說學校的考核每年一次"},{"start":7037.449,"end":7052.957,"text":"那當然我有帶隊成績等等我都不擔心那現在還有一個制度就是說在中央制定每三年要再考核試所以有時候我帶隊帶隊就為了這些考核每天都在寫那些書面的東西我覺得有點繁瑣"},{"start":7053.917,"end":7073.658,"text":"那是不是說如果你滿三年考核過了而且真正這些考核制度建立得非常完善考核是絕對要考核不適任的人而不是要考核有成績有理想有抱負的教練那是不是能延逸是不是延長滿三年之後後面是不是定定是五年"},{"start":7074.818,"end":7094.326,"text":"五年過後是不是七年那再來我差不多退休了這三年五年一挨就二十年了所以我每三年被中央制定的一直在考核他會覺得很煩這個是一個重點我們現在我是正式專業教練在教練制度上的"},{"start":7095.386,"end":7117.086,"text":"另外一个福利就是说我知道我们有原住民的专业教练有原民会这边但是好像也是由以前的教育部体育署在辅导那么也有各县市有一年一片的那么也有外片那在这些教练的所有的会不会有私人这个考核等等的参差不齐也一定有"},{"start":7117.686,"end":7143.416,"text":"像我们自己的学校包括我们今年去威伦博队比赛的一位洛教练他就是原住民聘的专业教练那么原住民这三个字就好像是为他们争取福利可是我们洛教练并不是原住民但是以前也是我东原的校友我的学生我一手拉把长大的那么放出这个福利原住民专业教练让他比较能够有所谓的"},{"start":7144.356,"end":7162.509,"text":"辦正事我們都知道在98年以前我就是一年一聘薪水相當微薄那麼他現在是原住民一年一聘那麼我也曾經跟原住民那邊討論過就是說跟教育部體育署是不是他已經有成績他雖然不是原住民但是我們因為學生的人數夠"},{"start":7163.689,"end":7190.338,"text":"足夠有原住民的人數夠才能聘任有原住民聘任教練的這個緣額在那他已經帶隊那麼多年都有成績是不要再一年一聘的考核那再來就是他的年資未來能不能成為正式如果他有機會像我們今年有成績市長有說要徵聘專業教練如果他考上我們正式未來年資能不能列入計算以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":7193.301,"end":7198.409,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們一樣邀請一樣是東元國小的這個棒球隊教練 駱振宇"},{"start":7205.305,"end":7230.58,"text":"主席委員長官大家好我是東岳國小棒球隊的陸教練那我剛剛有看了那個書面報告的內容然後也有聽了很多長官們的報告其實大多都是聚焦在如何反制不是任教練進入我們的教育場合和一些民間運動團體的場合去任教那我覺得其實如何留任優秀教練然後樹立優秀運動教練的制度我覺得也通等重要"},{"start":7232.041,"end":7257.891,"text":"我只是想要問的是如果假設都如果都沒有步伐那是不是任何有證照的人都可以當教練又或者是說然後他在當教期間如果只要避免剛剛去說的違法事件然後考核通過他就可以一直教下去會不會就是因為這樣因為真正優秀人才他就是因為這樣都不想當教練大家對於教練的標準就會越來越低以我為例好了"},{"start":7258.786,"end":7272.028,"text":"美國打完冠軍回來之後師傅有在討論剛剛大家有在講師傅有在討論要帶給我們學校多一位專任教練的名額我考取的機會很大我身邊的親朋好友都說我前途一片光明但是我必須要跟大家說其實我前途一片黑暗"},{"start":7273.786,"end":7293.834,"text":"為什麼我簡單跟大家專任教練工作簡單說明一下我們要訓練要比賽之外我們要招生我們要訓練計劃算學訓練計劃比完賽回來要經費核銷年度的經費核銷然後有時候經費不足的時候我們要找贊助我們要開車帶隊要自己要開車然後要把關學生的品性課業態度"},{"start":7295.615,"end":7315.867,"text":"然後甚至有些教練更辛苦他要管理住宿生的他要關懷弱勢學生等等等等甚至要更多薪水4萬起跳更有趣的是假設我今天是專任教練我今天考取正式的專任教練現在專任教練的起薪比我現在領到薪水還要再低更低我現在如果考取正式的話薪水會比我現在還要更低"},{"start":7324.929,"end":7349.906,"text":"年資要重算 種種不友善的制度讓我和其他的優秀教練我們必須要另謀出路我們不想要留在這邊了有其他教練曾經在台北市某知名的國小我認為他是一個優秀的教練但是因為薪水問題他不再留任了他現在跑去開Uber他發現跟我說我們花一樣的時間在運動圈他現在跑去開Uber他的月薪可以10萬"},{"start":7351.067,"end":7372.406,"text":"他就說你現在都已經拿到冠軍了你的夢想完成了你的熱情也完成了但是該考慮現實面的時候我不敢說我是一位優秀的教練但是我正努力往優秀的道路前進我只是覺得這些優秀教練如果因為這樣無法留任指導學生我覺得對於體育界是一件很可惜的事情謝謝"},{"start":7375.796,"end":7381.683,"text":"好謝謝那我們接下來邀請的是台灣運動產業嗎台灣運動產業協會的徐振賢理事長"},{"start":7396.348,"end":7415.388,"text":"主席 委員跟各位先進 我是桃運動產業協會理事長徐振賢 以下是我的分享我覺得今天要討論的議題 我從幾個端點來討論第一個是我們的教練的養成的過程裡面 是不是養成的符合現代運動教育的正確的認知"},{"start":7417.19,"end":7446.69,"text":"我舉例來說在我們剛剛公聽會的現場我正在聽各位委員的發言我就接到一位家長給我一個訊息他的兩個兒子都打棒球在台中一個非常知名的棒球學校我不好講哪一個學校兩個兒子都被霸凌兩個兒子現在休學在家等調查報告剛剛我在現場接到訊息他說他的這個檢舉報告上面寫教練用手打我的頭打四下"},{"start":7448.431,"end":7471.03,"text":"因为我一个球没有投好他的弟弟说教练因为我一个球没投好叫我跑操场跑十圈再一个球没投好叫我青蛙跳跳六圈请问在座的教练认为这个是不是霸凌我相信这个题目如果问全台湾所有教练不管你是专业教练你是约聘顾各种教练可能有一半的教练告诉你这不是霸凌"},{"start":7472.079,"end":7497.392,"text":"所以我想跟各位說的是台灣的體育運動教練的最大問題是很多事情根本沒有架構沒有規則沒有規範沒有共識如果台灣有一半的教練對同一件事情的觀感是完全不一樣的請問我們在立任何的法律有用嗎沒有用的我認為我們最大的問題是對一個最基本的什麼叫性品什麼叫霸凌的基本素養是完全沒有共識的"},{"start":7498.749,"end":7524.715,"text":"而這個共識之所以沒有是因為我們的教練從小的養成過程就是這樣被對待的這件事沒有改變再過20年我相信這公聽會持續發生一樣的議題不同的人講不同的話所以第一個我想講的是我們對所有現任的教練要不要重新做不管你多資深多厲害得什麼冠軍都不管重新做最基本的素養教育你可以打孩子頭嗎"},{"start":7526.53,"end":7543.402,"text":"你可以罰他青蛙跳吗你可以罰他跑十天操场没有任何理由吗如果这个没有共识我们今天开的会是没有意义的第一件事情第二件事情是系统的侵犯我自己不是立法委员我也不是公务人员但我接到了上百个家长的陈情都在讲霸凌"},{"start":7544.329,"end":7556.774,"text":"而這些霸凌的case據我所知沒有一個case是在他通報之後馬上列入調查然後能夠給一個正式回覆都要迂迴找議員找立法員甚至要寫信到部長信箱"},{"start":7558.061,"end":7577.468,"text":"為什麼一個孩子被霸凌被性平了我們的家長還需要這麼辛苦的走這樣讓他覺得非常擔心的程序我昨天接到一個游泳的家長他的小孩游泳成績非常非常好可以說國家級的他說Jeff我們這次選拔出了問題我說你敢不敢寫信到部長信箱他說我不敢因為我怕寫得被針對"},{"start":7579.329,"end":7605.474,"text":"我想表達的是我們現在的系統的輕放對應的就是一群憂心的家長各位少子女化已經嚴重的侵襲台灣的體育運動發展尤其體育班如果少子女化的影響我們不好好面對我們繼續讓這些我們認為不公不義的事情在市場上發生就會出現一群憂心的家長最後就沒有孩子運動了以現在的少子女化的程度"},{"start":7606.516,"end":7630.858,"text":"包括連體育班的數量人數都要減少如果繼續這樣子再過十年我們沒有增加運動的滲透率各位沒有體育班了也不用考運動專業教練因為沒有體育班了只要沒有提升運動滲透率體育班就不會存在所以體育班不用討率存廢它自然會廢掉因為沒有學生所以如果我們繼續讓這些不公平的事情發生我跟各位保證家長們是受不了的"},{"start":7632.233,"end":7642.802,"text":"他有很多選擇不一定要玩運動所以這個是不是嚴重的議題包括運動部教育部可能要思考第三我想講的是我認為文化的建立比生硬的法律規定"},{"start":7644.298,"end":7667.575,"text":"可能更重要我認為至少要兼備我們現在立法我非常認同但我們整個文化的建立都沒有建立法律再硬也都不會執行因為需要執行的人會把它輕放什麼叫文化的建立我就請問我們要不要開始把體育班的學生回歸正常的教育系統"},{"start":7668.849,"end":7685.257,"text":"剛有前輩說應該針對專業教練有一個專門的學程我就問能不能先進正常的教育學習再說你都沒有正常的上課從國小五六年級體育班國中高中到大學進去體育訓都不用正常上課的情況下你再怎麼學成有用嗎"},{"start":7688.021,"end":7715.733,"text":"如果這些孩子沒有正常的學習他學的唯一的就是他的那個教練他那個教練只要有霸凌有性平行事件未來就會持續發生這次台中的事件已經證明了一個長年性侵學生的棒球教練他的學生也性侵別人我們講的都真實案例人本案例大陸我認認讀讀不完所以我們要不要建立文化的確我們要立法沒有錯但立法之前文化要不要建立文化不建立學生都不讀書"},{"start":7717.864,"end":7744.245,"text":"教練們可以犯法都被輕放有一個滑輪溜冰的知名教練到現在還可以都已經被學校除名還可以隨時進到全國賽的現場去當教練當裁判請問你家長如何看待如果一個這樣的教練都可以直接繼續在全國賽現場出現請問這些滑輪溜冰家長要怎麼面對孩子學滑輪溜冰這件事而我們的協會不聞不問"},{"start":7745.539,"end":7763.819,"text":"協會部門不問請問有沒有法則沒有法則所以我們的立法已經非常鬆散又沒有文化這件事情就是難上加難所以我認為立法跟文化的建議同時必須並重然後最後我想說的是體育班的學生真的要讀書了謝謝"},{"start":7768.649,"end":7776.076,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來邀請的是國立台北教育大學體育學系的胡天梅教授"},{"start":7794.346,"end":7821.672,"text":"主席各位委員各位學者專家大家好今天很高興就是運動部以及各位都專注在這個有關運動教練這個議題我常常開玩笑的說在台灣當運動教練不是傻子就是瘋子但是我這裡的意思是說"},{"start":7823.905,"end":7841.747,"text":"在台灣擔任運動教練他的付出跟他的報酬其實是有相當大的這個落差的那當然我們也不是以報酬來去衡量一個職務它的一個價值但是陳儒剛才前面"},{"start":7843.782,"end":7868.641,"text":"我們的棒球教練他提到的就是如果說他以專任運動教練再重新起薪的話那麼他的薪水是連他現在的四萬都不到也就是當我們在討論這個不適任專任運動教練該如何去處理或者是說該建立哪些法規"},{"start":7870.45,"end":7897.439,"text":"是不是能夠全面性的去考量到以上種種的這些前面委員所提到的這些很奇怪的運動現場的現象是因為我們從來都沒有重視運動那所以今天你要求這些專業運動人員"},{"start":7900.219,"end":7925.513,"text":"他們要有很多的很高的條件的時候他就成了一個很難達成的現象剛才前面也提到其中最麻煩的就是有關兒少的運動教練這個部分但是有關兒少的運動教練這個部分我們也了解這是一個基層的運動教練"},{"start":7930.148,"end":7957.188,"text":"試問大家想一想基層的運動教練在我們整個社會我們給他的重視程度我們給他的待遇到底是多少那也因此在民間在社團的這一些可能是他對這個運動有興趣"},{"start":7960.063,"end":7981.32,"text":"或者是他對兒童青少年幼兒有興趣所以他才去參與這樣的一個沒有人想要擔任的運動教練這樣的一個職務因此呢"},{"start":7982.728,"end":8005.88,"text":"我今天很想的很想就是把握住今天能夠來到現場跟大家討論這個議題的時候是不是我們能夠把焦點從學校專任運動教練拉回到有關私人俱樂部這些民間團體的這些運動教練"},{"start":8012.335,"end":8019.721,"text":"那這些運動教練因為他並沒有受到我們任何政府的一個補助那我們如何監督他那我剛才也很感謝前面的委員也有提到有關這個短期補習班目前已經成立就是建立這個相當的法規跟通報的系統"},{"start":8039.488,"end":8060.56,"text":"那我覺得民間的運動教練這個部分是不是也可以從相關的法規先建立但是建立之後誰去通報呢剛才前面委員也提到說那我們是不是有體育館的巡邏系統"},{"start":8064.602,"end":8090.45,"text":"但是今天如果說在民間民間的一個私人的跆拳道訓練場誰去巡邏誰去通報以及通報之後怎麼樣去查核這個可能是在法規建立的時候也需要一併進行考量的部分"},{"start":8092.881,"end":8121.444,"text":"那我個人過去也有一些孩子他跟我講他個人在過去受到這個不當管教的一個運動經驗那我那時候就在問我自己我能夠做什麼我能夠幫他什麼可是我發覺到很難為什麼因為各個運動的場所現場就只有教練"},{"start":8123.083,"end":8126.384,"text":"跟學生或者是教練跟選手那麼誰去進行這個通報的行為呢前面委員也有提到受到不當管教的孩子你要他提出來他會說他會害怕"},{"start":8151.502,"end":8178.481,"text":"那現場除了教練除了孩子之外還有誰難道我們裝監視系統嗎那但是在民間的俱樂部民間的社團你可以裝監視系統嗎其實有關這個查核的一個辦法的一個設立的過程當中我會比較建議說考量到如何真的能夠"},{"start":8180.014,"end":8198.913,"text":"看到現場以及是不是有什麼方法能夠讓這個通報系統能夠很順利的建立以上是我個人的意見 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請中華民國奧運人協會的李建新秘書長"},{"start":8206.587,"end":8226.689,"text":"好 各位午安 大家好我叫李建興今天來參加這個公聽會我覺得非常適合因為我在師大運動競技學系最近有點紅我教的學生大部分可以說幾乎來自代表隊體育班然後畢業之後大部分是從事專人運動教練"},{"start":8228.231,"end":8257.345,"text":"那麼這四年來我擔任志工的工作在中華美國奧運人協會擔任秘書長中華美國奧運人協會他所有的會員只要一個資格參加過奧運的選手今天這個專任運動教練他立法成為所謂的教育人員的話是2004年我記得是我們那時候理事長黃志雄擔任立法委員的時候跟很多的立法委員共同推動立法"},{"start":8257.805,"end":8282.418,"text":"那我記得在102年的時候專任教練的輔導辦法是我擔任體驗中心的時候幫忙訂定草案所以對於這個法規特別有法律上的一個情感那今天時間有那麼另外在奧運人來講以花東地區來講有專任教練比如說2004年天才少年王正邦"},{"start":8283.278,"end":8308.79,"text":"他就是射箭拿銀牌他是專任教練那2012年的話在倫敦奧運的時候拿下銅牌的曾立成他也是花蓮地區的專任教練那麼今天時間有限我只有三個重點第一個是事情多有些時候是好事第二個是事情太雜的時候可能是壞事最後我要總結應該要讓好的事情"},{"start":8310.598,"end":8314.867,"text":"集中那我先講事情多有些時候是好事喔"},{"start":8315.885,"end":8345.385,"text":"我這幾年擔任某個亞奧運項目的紀律委員會的主委那麼包括性侵霸凌的案件處理多了很多已經創紀錄那為什麼說事情多是好事呢這不代表我們的國家退步代表很多在陽光下面的一些事情被拿到檯面上然後在法治的過程當中將這些專任"},{"start":8346.105,"end":8364.36,"text":"不適合的專任教練淘汰而且這個部分我必須要肯定的是立法院還有教育部之前教育部體育署還有現在的運動部那我更要肯定的是其實絕大部分絕大部分的專業運動教練過得太辛苦了"},{"start":8365.06,"end":8379.85,"text":"那麼他們的貢獻其實是很大很大的比如說今天看到賴教練揮揮手他拿到少棒冠軍的時候他掉的英雄類我還拍給他那其實那個過程跟這些"},{"start":8381.132,"end":8395.694,"text":"極少數極少數的教練才會出這樣的事情所以我說事情多有些是好事壞事情讓它產生第二個是今天的這個法規謝謝立法院有些委員已經有一個草案的版本"},{"start":8396.155,"end":8414.247,"text":"那我本身的話在行政院體育委員會成立半年的時候我就高考及格也就在做這方面的工作那我要講的是這個辦法裡面其實它的法例看起來有利益是良善但是在落實上有很多的問題"},{"start":8415.228,"end":8439.153,"text":"因為不適任的專任教練現在從早期的教育部體育署到現在的運動部包括教育部其實在現行的辦法法規已經有集合很多人的智慧那現在比較大的問題是如何落實從剛剛陳培宇委員到後續幾個與會的代表其實都已經有提到了"},{"start":8439.833,"end":8462.359,"text":"那麼至於要如何落實可能才是關鍵那至於這個草案我也有仔細拜讀它裡面可能有很多部分必須有待處理有些瑕疵比如說兒少的年齡的對象還有他訂定這個所謂的課程要中央目的事業主管機關釐清這到時候人多嘴雜應該會吵成一團"},{"start":8464.62,"end":8484.659,"text":"再來他到底要在公法司法還有他適用的對象是不是民間而且他談到的是運動教學與訓練者那比如說我爸爸媽媽要跟你做運動訓練那你還要專業證照這個證照還有這些課程還有更重要今天我遇到我的好朋友"},{"start":8485.62,"end":8500.92,"text":"那個陳錫清陳祖密幫他打個廣告他最近出了兩本法學的書這裡面其實關於那個人格權法規講到人格權的部分那我做了一些功課還有一字不二法"},{"start":8501.761,"end":8526.136,"text":"還有我們的那個就是無罪推定那以人格權來講憲法的第22條刑法的第18條第195條民法的309條民法的310條包括刑事訴訟法這裡面其實都會有法律競合的問題這個都必須加以再釐清第三個重點是好事是少"},{"start":8526.696,"end":8548.248,"text":"什麼意思呢其實絕大部分的專任運動教練他們對國家的貢獻非常的多那我也必須承認是極少數的這些專任教練他們做了一些有愧於國人期待的事情這些壞蟲應該在現行的法規機制或者在蟲嚥的部分"},{"start":8549.929,"end":8567.16,"text":"加以落實幫他揪出來但是因為我另外一個角色是在台灣師大任教我從法學的概念來談在全世界立法的潮流裡面從血債血還的因果論到對於犯罪者我們要如何去預防他"},{"start":8568.021,"end":8581.326,"text":"到目前來講已經到特別預防理論那特別預防理論其實他要做的是在除弊之外更重要的是心力那比如說中華民國奧運人比如說賴教練比如說我們運動部部長李陽"},{"start":8583.927,"end":8599.715,"text":"這些人這些有偶包偶像應該利用比馬龍效應讓他們在社會各層面結合運動部的成立做更多形象的正面宣導那我相信在陽光之下"},{"start":8600.655,"end":8622.171,"text":"越亮的陽光 越好的光線之下陰影存在的機會變少也就是呼應剛剛幾個發言人代表所提的去建立一個良善的運動文化才是持久之計以上是個人意見 謝謝謝謝那接下來我們請女足球員工會的焦佳紅秘書長"},{"start":8645.194,"end":8672.128,"text":"委員然後與會的長官還有各位專家學的大家早安台灣女足球員工會嘉鴻在這邊分享作為一個足球的球迷或是教練也好其實我們一直很好奇一個問題到底我們要怎樣才知道或我們家長都會問他的足球教練有沒有被撤銷過教練證不知道大家對於台灣現在我們足球教練數量有沒有概念"},{"start":8673.12,"end":8701.931,"text":"那根據中華足協在2002年公佈的資料我們目前台灣擁有教練證的教練數量大概1084那現在三年後應該會更多但到底有多少教練在這過程裡面曾經或有被撤銷教練證呢其實我們現在可能只能從中華足協的紀律委員會公告裡面看到這個狀況可是很有趣的事情是在中華足協的紀律委員會公告裡面我們能夠看到的資料是什麼"},{"start":8702.958,"end":8729.387,"text":"是圈圈圈擔任足球界的期間對兒童不當碰觸行為然後撤銷他的教練證那這個圈圈圈是誰不知道教練不知道家長不知道我們只能透過口耳相傳考上哪個教練有問題接下來還是一樣到今年7月其實這個東西在坊間大家有很多的討論"},{"start":8731.079,"end":8759.545,"text":"窮民也好 家長也好 教練也好大家想問的東西都是到底為什麼我們要這麼保護這些被撤銷教練證的教練可是很有趣的事情是一樣是中華民國組合協會紀律委員會在之前的師大女主案的時候周才英教練的教練證被撤銷的時候她又是一個全民公告的狀態那大家更疑惑的事情是這些伸縮自如的各自保護到底是保護誰"},{"start":8761.65,"end":8777.071,"text":"好那剛剛前面有委員有分享過在目前運動部的教練查詢制度裡面因為在台中柔道南紅事件後我們有了這樣一個查詢系統但這個系統我們只能查誰有教練證那"},{"start":8779.768,"end":8792.105,"text":"對於沒有教練證或者是對於被撤銷教練證的人其實在立法院有過很多的討論但當時的體育署抵死不願意把這些被撤銷教練證的名單公布出來直到"},{"start":8793.274,"end":8816.628,"text":"前兩個月衛福部的狼醫平台事件出現後運動部開始說好我把涉及不法的教練公告出來可是如果是有裁判書被撤銷教練證的教練的話其實不用運動部的公告我就可以在司法院的系統上面查到所以這個東西對家長而言其實沒有幫助的"},{"start":8817.642,"end":8840.216,"text":"那一樣回到我們剛剛談的足協我們最前面秀過至少看起來就有七八個教練被撤銷過教練證可是在目前運動部的系統裡面我們只看到三個教練有因為設法所以說被撤銷教練證然後有他的裁判書但這就是我們現在台灣被撤銷過教練證的足球教練的全貌嗎當然不是"},{"start":8842.11,"end":8863.747,"text":"陳培文剛有提到在法務部的函式裡面已經明白的跟運動部或當時的體育組揭示公告這些被撤銷教練證的資訊它不只是個人資料保護法的問題它其實根本的問題是在政府資訊公開法因為這些資料不是運動部自己做裁罰的這是單項協會做出的裁罰"},{"start":8864.676,"end":8876.647,"text":"所以當運動部收到這些資料的時候其實運動部本就可以基於社會公益去把這些資訊公開出來讓家長也好 讓球員也好知道我的教練他到底有沒有被撤銷過證照"},{"start":8879.295,"end":8897.73,"text":"那我們可以理解運動部到現在還是在堅持說我們只有這個有在司法院平台上面公告姓名的我們才會公告但是在這中間運動部還能做什麼我們知道過去體育組可能不願意做但至少我們期待在現在全新的運動部這邊"},{"start":8899.301,"end":8916.315,"text":"我們可以做兩件事情第一件事情如果這些紀律處分是發自單項運動協會那至少可以請單項協會把這些撤銷教練的全名公開並提供查詢因為這是單項協會本於個人資料保護法公義事由他就可以做的事情"},{"start":8917.369,"end":8932.772,"text":"那在這個前提之下運動部也可以把我們教練查詢系統擴大到被撤照的教練名單當然我們知道在過去運動部內部討論裡面擔心這樣的公告會不會影響到被公告者的名譽影響到運動部會被告"},{"start":8933.593,"end":8951.102,"text":"但實務上如果這是政府資訊公開法第18條所規範的公開資訊可以去增進公共利益的段數的話我們沒有要運動部說到底這些被測到的教練是因為什麼原因但至少你要能夠讓家長讓球員知道我的教練曾經被測校過這個基礎的事實好這是"},{"start":8956.389,"end":8971.659,"text":"關於不適應教練的撤照問題那再來關於教育的問題其實在2017年國民體育法修法後單項協會的教練裁判業務正式進入體育署監管範圍可是我們看到目前為止"},{"start":8973.392,"end":9000.199,"text":"運動部也好或過去體育署好對於單項協會在教練的養成上面兒少之能這件事情我們其實做得非常消極我們用什麼方式我們沒有提供任何法源我們單就用行政指導的方式請中華體總告訴各單項協會你要所有教練講習的時候進行一個小時的兒少教育課程我相信在座所有有參與過單項協會教練講習課程朋友都知道那一個小時大家在幹嘛在放空講師是誰不知道"},{"start":9001.3,"end":9013.242,"text":"講師的能力好不好 不知道因為我只要坐在那邊一個小時之後我就完成了運動部交代的事情那運動部可以對立法院說我們有對教練進行兒少智能的教育這是負責任的政府嗎"},{"start":9015.307,"end":9042.458,"text":"再者在2017年之後我們也建立了所謂的教練真人換照制度四年要48小時的教育可是實際上單向協會也好運動部也好在這塊能量非常缺乏以至於到現場剛剛原本有分享我們就委託中華體總或者說讓中華體總去開一個兩天12小時的課程也是一樣坐在那邊12小時之後我拿到時數了我們就彷彿完成了所謂教練真人的要求"},{"start":9043.956,"end":9059.834,"text":"其实运动部有没有自己可以做的事情有运动部现在有儿少教育资源课程示范但我们不确定在运动部成立之后它还会不会延续再者我其实很开心看到今天运动产业中心的业管的次长黄次长到现场"},{"start":9060.694,"end":9085.454,"text":"因為其實在過去運動部或體育署大部分業務都是透過委外的時候我們沒有辦法去掌握這些委外課程的能量但運動產業中心在明年成立以後我期待我們會透過這個歷史機會把教練證照真的業務由我們行政法人來接手真的去做到政府可以去落實我們政策在教練裁判業務上那最後我補充一下抱歉延長時間"},{"start":9087.669,"end":9108.477,"text":"我們要強調有證無證我們知道在現在的現場大家都是教練我們也沒有辦法區分運動部可能會說我們沒有法源我今天提供一個參考給大家知道在民國65年到82年間其實我們有過運動補習班測試辦法當時我們是曾經對運動教學是有過監理的現在雖然沒有但未來我們其實可以有"},{"start":9109.161,"end":9118.769,"text":"在這個狀況下我們就不見得只能限定在單項協會或特定體育團體的教練證照裡面那透過登記制度合照的教練證我們可以讓教練監理成為可能"},{"start":9120.1,"end":9148.411,"text":"那最後我要說林榮忍他不應該只是口號在美國教練拉扯球員馬尾他是會被開除的在台灣呢前面委員有說過就是深界大事化小小事化無甚至我們到今年運動部成立之後我們還看到有這樣一封公文說你們在聯賽的時候不要讓大家拍到你對兒子在偶不當的行為影響聯賽形象這是形象問題嗎不是這是教練是否適應的問題"},{"start":9150.117,"end":9176.45,"text":"最後最後跟運動部的長官分享他三之十其實一樣是在日本的運動行政法人我們可以做什麼日本的運動行政法人他們就建立了一個運動員暴力騷擾諮商窗口他們提供運動員律師心理師資深球員的諮詢他們明確揭示哪些做法是不適宜不適當而且可以做諮詢的"},{"start":9178.066,"end":9203.045,"text":"那這些我們看到的項目裡面有多少在台灣現行的狀況下是會被輕輕放下的我們今天談的是不自身運動教練的政策但我們目標我們的對象其實不是跟教練過不去我們是要保護兒少那在保護兒少的道路上我有務實地面對透明教育跟監理制度的建立"},{"start":9204.079,"end":9215.867,"text":"才能去鉴别出不适应的教练然后保护我们优质的教练保护我们的儿少谢谢谢谢那接下来我们请台南一中的郭富奇主任"},{"start":9228.759,"end":9242.932,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好那我就從學校的立場來說明一下像我們學校也有設有運動專業教練然後也有相關的一些部分那我想就幾個部分來分享在這個題目上的想法第一個部分是在剛才"},{"start":9244.293,"end":9259.673,"text":"各位先進剛才比較集中在的是民間單位的部分那學校的部分其實比較沒有爭議那我要講的也是學校的部分確實也比較沒有爭議因為在現行的制度底下學校的部分包含了現行的查核不適合教師的查核機制那對於不適合教師的處理機制其實"},{"start":9261.215,"end":9277.972,"text":"学校所聘的运动教练是有纳入就是准用不试任教室处理机制校室会议的方式在进行调查跟处理那相关的不试任教育人员只要是纳入学校的部分那其实只要落实查核机制所以刚才像各位先进有分享到某一些案例是出现在"},{"start":9279.229,"end":9299.921,"text":"學校第一個可能沒有落實查核機制那這個部分目前在署裡面或教育部這邊有加強然後有做說明了那這個部分只要能夠確實能夠讓學校落實定期查核那只要是列入不適合查核人員的部分是可以讓他有效的不要進入到校園裡面去所以在校園內的部分第一個在剛才各位市長所講的比較沒有異議"},{"start":9301.002,"end":9325.8,"text":"下一個有疑義的問題第二點我要講的是其實剛才各位教育先進都有提到不論是教理事長或是人本的橋欄或是產業公會的區理事長都有講到我們下一個要做的事情其實應該是要建立共識那也就是在講到底什麼樣的行為是落於在體能訓練體罰不當管教之間的邊緣界線我想這個其實是不只是在運動教練其實在現行的我們在教育現場對於老師我們也一再強調"},{"start":9326.641,"end":9347.206,"text":"那對於老師的作為其實像剛才喬蘭講的很多時候在老師上我們之前其實學校還有同仁在問我說教師的輔導管教措施中有一項是說適度的體能是一個學務處或是輔導室的輔導管教措施我說這種情形下如果一旦陷入以處罰為目的然後不當的體能訓練這就是一種體罰這個是蠻明確的可是在專項運動教練或是專業運動人員這邊卻常常卻有一個"},{"start":9353.988,"end":9369.285,"text":"模糊不清的界限或者是學校很容易會不容易立即的辨識或是查明出這件事情那對於這件事情其實像剛才焦麗書長所講到的就是說我們應該要有更多的教育的方式"},{"start":9369.645,"end":9385.832,"text":"像現在的教育要怎麼進行其實當然在很多情形下像我們學校也有很多推廣或是在講就是告訴大家確實會碰到一些老師或者是一些訓練的時候在教育訓練過程中他們可能會沒有這麼積極投入"},{"start":9386.892,"end":9416.752,"text":"那怎么样再加强积极投入并且跟大家有些讨论可能要再采用不同的策略跟方法那像之前在特殊学校的部分对于特殊学校的那个界限的各种的比如说以陆校 陆班然后小班制的方式或许接下来可以做一个考虑跟采取的方式就是不是每一个都是采用大班宣讲式的说法那这个地方可能会比较少可能透过几个案例跟那个具体的内容跟大家讨论那个界限跟空间在哪里这样子的考论跟处理"},{"start":9417.032,"end":9439.747,"text":"是第二個在未來的教育訓練但第三個要談到的就是剛才老師也有提到就是說不適合教育資料庫中它當然影響到人格權工作權 隱私權的問題所以接下來要怎麼樣建立一起長期的機制目前將所有人員都跨入納入的性平法在法律的程式中就已經有做了那今天大院在討論的這個就是國民體育法就國民體育法將"},{"start":9440.828,"end":9455.869,"text":"這類型的查核機制跟通報機制直接入法這才是一個比較能夠完整的像剛才各位先進有提到說現行就可以透過的確透過政府資訊公開法或透過相對應的法律可以讓這些事情先行公告可是它一直存在一個法治上的隱憂"},{"start":9456.59,"end":9483.103,"text":"所以如果能夠回到用法律的部分不論是在霸凌跟不當管教中不論是修改教育基本法或者是國民體育法的方式讓它建立一個明確的機制這個明確機制可能要包含像剛才劉委員所提到的就是到底要如何調查介入那這個調查過程中要如何確保調查程序對體育教練對任何人的一個就是程序上的保障以及後續的爭議機制譬如說行政救濟或是接下來"},{"start":9483.683,"end":9501.367,"text":"如果有疑義的時候有沒有其他的申訴或救濟管道不只是針對那一些可能受影響的學生也對於這些教練要有一個完善的運作在法律層次上有明確的入法規定之後我想對於後面會比較好處理那因為現在校園裡面其實我們也會碰到說因為沒有"},{"start":9501.667,"end":9522.738,"text":"就是性平是明確的有法律的規定在要求所以只要任何進入到學校裡面的對於性平的查核跟通報都有相對應的法律規範可是對於其他的譬如說我們剛才講到的霸凌體罰不當管教的這一些行為目前相對應的法規沒有在法律層次"},{"start":9522.878,"end":9542.666,"text":"我們有在另命令層次的部分希望要做一個處理這當然是一個目前的緊急的解決方案但長期以來在法律的運作層次上或許還是要回到在法的層次上去做綜合處理可能還是比較完善的最後剛才各位先進一直有提到就是有關於民間運動場館或是訓練班俱樂部的部分"},{"start":9543.286,"end":9561.442,"text":"那的確他就會涉及到幾個像剛才講的通報義務跟責任那或者是剛才秘書長所講的就是說誰來受理申訴跟調查那這個部分可能就是比較需要用法律的體系如果這個人是在學校已經有出現狀況已經被納入學校的不適任教育不適任的資料庫裡面"},{"start":9562.863,"end":9588.405,"text":"這個還可以透過查核或相互的資源資訊的公開去做處理可是如果它完全是在民間自己發生的事情就是譬如說小型的民間的訓練班或者是一些幾個三五好友之間的訓練跟運作過程中這個部分可能目前確實是缺乏一個運作那能夠使用的大概只剩下兒少全法的一些規定所以這個地方怎麼樣去擴張跟處理那這個東西就要透過法律來做處理"},{"start":9588.925,"end":9616.031,"text":"那最後就是有關於目前草案中的條列的這個就是對於哪一些行為構成不適任的這邊我自己的建議是說是不是有機會去跟當然未必完全跟教育人員一致但是有一些條文或者是一些規範內容要不要跟教育人員一致比較一致一點譬如說像是對於條文裡面特別有列出來的是犯故意傷害罪或者是殺人罪等各種的部分"},{"start":9616.331,"end":9637.209,"text":"那這個在教育人員條例是比較用概括的最後一項行為違反法律經其他機關查證署時有解聘不得再續聘的規定這在教師法那教育人員條例有類似這樣子的條文那第一個在這次的草案中沒有見到類似這樣子的概括條文那會不會對未來在處理的過程中掛一漏萬就是可能會有一些缺失的部分"},{"start":9637.529,"end":9657.235,"text":"第二個是因為不論像剛才有先進提出說要不要完全比照或納入教育人員利用條例但這一些都是在可能有一部分在學校裡面的如果是在學校裡面的是不是應該盡可能讓他一次會比較好那以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們邀請運動好事協會的劉伯鈞執行長執行長咧"},{"start":9665.88,"end":9691.623,"text":"主席各位委員大家放輕鬆我最後一個了首先還是要非常感謝給我這個機會來做分享那這也是一直我一直以來非常關心的議題那剛剛培育委員仁本還有政協委員已經舉出各種鬼故事了那講鬼故事我自然不若人後我再舉一個2007年性侵已經被定驗分別被定驗的一對兄弟"},{"start":9692.383,"end":9716.491,"text":"10年跟被定认10年跟9年半判刑确定因为性侵一个数位儿童然而他现在我cue一下他现在目前还在双元球场万华区你们之后就有陈情了万华区的双元球场那边执法用亲子社区的这个联盟去执法然而知道状况的教练跟家长"},{"start":9717.779,"end":9740.455,"text":"無計可施這就是現況所以我說真的我實在是不太能理解這個領域尤其我在2020年在抗議某場裁判的性騷之後最後的結果就是我現在除了台北市辦委會的比賽之外其他的我執法機會是零尤其我在我告訴你這個領域的特殊性就是當我去年在返回球場的時候"},{"start":9741.636,"end":9768.253,"text":"別的比賽的球場的時候有一個裁判跟我說你看你害那個裁判三年不能在國家的比賽執法我跟他說請你搞清楚當我們裁判在判決一個選手出局妨礙跑壘等等的狀況的時候是因為他的行為而使裁判做出這樣判決而不是裁判害他出局或害他妨礙跑壘是吧教練所以"},{"start":9772.028,"end":9789.757,"text":"有時候我都在想如果我們制度是這樣子對於這些不適任的教練或相關的人員是這樣子的對待尤其即便我拿到了國際教會跟聯合國的運動性評獎還是可以被這樣子對待的時候我就問那這些兒少運動員該怎麼辦"},{"start":9791.738,"end":9803.752,"text":"所以這樣子的環境如果我們持續這樣不作為等於是告訴我的訊息就是你知道嗎我也想要去犯一點性騷的案件這樣可能就會有同業跑出來捍衛我的工作權了所以"},{"start":9808.368,"end":9821.253,"text":"在這樣環境跟結構之下我們不能告訴這些兒少運動員說其實我們現在已經有現有法規你們自己要去用啊就像是我前兩個月去美國執法那個女子職棒的比賽"},{"start":9822.313,"end":9848.755,"text":"也有人問我說你怎麼去那你怎麼會受聘去那邊執法我能跟你講說你就寫信給聯盟的主席啊我有他email跟whatsapp我給你自己用啊差不多就是一樣的意思所以呢兒少運動員是一個我們必須要採取積極措施的群體為什麼因為兒少在安全成長是他們理所應得的權益而不是把這些不被受傷要保護自己的責任跟工作丟給他們"},{"start":9850.529,"end":9876.543,"text":"所以我想要問說要讓這些不適任的教練甚至於相關人員禁止接觸兒少活動的領域我只想問我們到底要做還是不要做舉例而言在美國比較稍有規模的比賽的時候相關的從業人員包含裁判場地記錄等等甚至於是要到附近的法院按耐指紋我整個系統還沒有很確定但是我知道我要去做這個動作"},{"start":9877.623,"end":9897.747,"text":"那這個動作有兩個意義第一個是我確定你是沒有這些相關的前科的第二個是我們都會知道你在從事兒燒運動員會接觸到兒燒運動的這份工作這是一個非常嚴肅的事情你不要有任何想要犯法的念頭因為這個責任跟後面的後果你承擔不起"},{"start":9898.45,"end":9925.565,"text":"所以我們該怎麼做很多前輩已經有給出很好的見解那我個人這邊還是在三個方面提出來第一個在教練課程的部分前面焦江航已經提到過我們現在真人研習的這些狀況我們還是希望說不管在教練跟裁判研習的時候我們能夠增加性平還有運動安全方面的專業課程第二個在聘任流程的部分"},{"start":9927.266,"end":9940.874,"text":"我们期待是有一个可以查询的资料库比方说你不管在申请工作或者是我们在换证等等在申请任何资料的时候你需要有应补齐的这些资料那应有补齐资料的时候"},{"start":9942.344,"end":9961.118,"text":"能不能在做這件事情的時候有所謂查核的資料庫還有所謂的勾擊的這種方式或者是就像是你會提出你的良民證等等你也有這樣的系統確認說你有去確認過他是沒有全科或是相關的犯罪"},{"start":9961.818,"end":9976.134,"text":"然後第三個是剛剛有提到說這些目前一些社團或者是即便是學校的一些狀況他們會有一個冒名改名字用人頭這種方式或是社團根本無法可管的方式那你"},{"start":9976.735,"end":10004.576,"text":"其實有些教練跟家長我們也想要去檢舉或do something可是問題現行來說的話你去檢舉也沒有意義也是沒有相關的罰則或什麼簡單講就是淡平良心但是這個東西不好找啊所以我想問我們能不能是類似像家暴法一樣如果當我知道他有相關的前科或者是犯的重刑到某種程度的時候如果他出現在"},{"start":10007.172,"end":10026.475,"text":"這樣子運動領域或者是校園的時候我可以如同家暴法一樣去報警然後請他必須離開這個領域我說這件事情很嚴肅的原因就是即便我知道那些犯這麼嚴重性侵的那個教練他現在出現在球場但我們也是無計可施你甚至於你要"},{"start":10027.476,"end":10053.374,"text":"你放心你的孩子讓這個教練指導我不放心讓我的孩子跟這樣的教練的球隊對打我不想要尤其是有些比賽的時候會牽扯到住宿我不想要發生任何的危險所以衛福部在昨天已經宣布將成立兒童與家庭署畢竟兒少法規是散落在各個單位那我們都知道兒少零容忍這現在已經是社會的共識"},{"start":10054.335,"end":10072.006,"text":"那在過往當中過往的歷史背景當中耳哨運動員對很多人來說你可能只是眾多選手質疑而且你可以隨意的拿捏因為反正這些小小運動員他能不能出賽他能不能接受培訓他能不能拿到資源都是你們這些"},{"start":10072.927,"end":10098.846,"text":"教練長官說了算但我們必須要了解兒少現在必須是國家政策的中心所以期待這次公聽會之後也期盼更希望我們未來修法之後我們接下來的政策能夠是以兒少為主體謝謝謝謝那接下來呢因為今天專家學者和委員都已經發言完抱歉"},{"start":10100.168,"end":10125.865,"text":"都已經發言完畢那另有柯知恩委員提出書面意見那現在請運動部代表回應好 委員還有在座所有的學者專家們大家好首先代表運動部真的非常非常的感謝大家今天所提出來的意見看法還有一些事實上我們目前沒有做好的地方這個是事實運動部絕對不會迴避"},{"start":10128.226,"end":10153.236,"text":"在部長交代我來出席這場公聽會的時候他清楚的交代我我們運動部對於這件事情將會以非常積極的角度各位過去所看到的一些狀況或許有一些好像感覺起來沒有那麼的積極我在這邊跟大家保證運動部將會非常積極的看待這件事情因此我將會要求我們今天有出席的同事們"},{"start":10153.976,"end":10172.826,"text":"在下個禮拜針對今天所有委員跟所有專家學者提出來的意見做對岸式的一個呼應做法在下個禮拜就要提出來我們會根據這些做法具體的擬定一些工作的方針希望能夠在今年年底以前做出一個很具體的方案出來以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":10175.063,"end":10203.292,"text":"好 謝謝那我這邊也簡單說明一下那我因為對我來說就是說我們其實非常可以看見到過去台灣的整體文化來說其實並不是那麼重視兒童的休憩娛樂或者是運動那可是我們可以看到少子化但是俱樂部也好或參與各項運動的人其實是一直在增加的那我們也剛剛也聽如同這個李建新部署長也有提到就是說我們也看到越來越多的案例包含不管是成培委員 人本委員"},{"start":10203.872,"end":10220.789,"text":"人本這邊我們自己這邊經手的甚至是因為我自己的小孩就在足球場上我都會看到很多的有些教練是非常不適當的在對待小孩大吼大叫甩耳光都有我自己都會看到這些事情所以這個就是我進到立法院之後一直非常在乎的一件事情"},{"start":10222.392,"end":10247.478,"text":"那我想就成如剛剛這個叫嘉宏秘書長說的身為一個家長我們去看竹協的網站其實我完全看不出來那個教練到底是誰那我想大家應該也可以理解家長心裡有多驚慌我不知道我的教練是不是那一個可能是犯了兒少性侵案性騷案的教練而我們現在卻無從得知那這件事情不管是在對於教育部也好"},{"start":10248.278,"end":10263.666,"text":"或者是過去的體育署也好我都質詢過非常非常多次那我剛剛非常高興的去聽到說我們的里洋部長有特別要求大家要積極的回應要展開 展新的做法那我也就非常期待"},{"start":10264.366,"end":10277.862,"text":"下個禮拜我收到的報告不會再是延續過去的以往的一貫的回應我希望可以看到更積極的做法特別是國體法的修法因為其實我已經提出我的版本"},{"start":10278.874,"end":10295.32,"text":"那我過去也一直在要求過去的體育署應該要盡速的來去回運給予一個法源然後讓我們可以有一個法源的依據來去做相關的執行所以我也希望說運動部能夠盡快提出國體法及相關規例中"},{"start":10297.001,"end":10312.755,"text":"關於公告不適任教練名單的條文修正草案來建立一個明確的法源作為未來公告不適任教練名單的依據來完善兒少防護的一個機制那特別是我也要要求我們的"},{"start":10314.116,"end":10336.37,"text":"這個運動部也要來去跟其他的部會來去做一些討論因為俱樂部並不是只有登記在所謂的教育部的體系之下也有可能是在經濟部然後過去一些街舞可能是在文化部所以不同的部會都應該要去仔細地來做討論我們還是要回到以兒少的運動來保護作為一個核心"},{"start":10337.57,"end":10353.409,"text":"再來第二個部分邀請運動部來研議民間運動場館不適任教練的防堵跟查核機制補齊制度的縫隙來落實全民性的運動環境安全再來第三個部分是剛剛大家一直在強調就是說"},{"start":10355.071,"end":10371.498,"text":"很多的老師過去他可能並沒有得到一個很好的訓練並沒有符合現代體育的一個運動的一個方向所以對於這個兒少運動的相關課程我也希望可以看到明確的回應跟規劃然後來讓我們的教練有一個更好的支持"},{"start":10372.518,"end":10383.782,"text":"那最後一個就是申訴窗口這個申訴的機制到底應該如何建立我也希望在下一次報告裡面要來回應這件事情好那依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應與公聽會終結後10日內"},{"start":10388.724,"end":10399.673,"text":"依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考"},{"start":10405.802,"end":10428.788,"text":"那我們也會把各位的發言意見及所有的書面資料綜合歸納會編成冊送交本院全體委員及所有出席的與會貴賓那最後也非常感謝今天大家出席公聽會那所提供的寶貴意見我們會審慎考量作為未來修法基據謝謝大家那我們要拍大合照嗎要嗎"},{"start":10437.624,"end":10438.448,"text":"我們到前面來拍個大樓照好了"}]}},{"id":"165514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab49a2fbaa279c60f6c344f506729c478c80df8a4d5e0e61e3e9b408045bd7e4355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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我們現在請工程會請工程會副主委還有中油公司中油董事長還有經濟部 謝謝經濟部次長好 謝謝為什麼不請法務部長跟調查局長因為個案裡面也不能講 上來也是浪費時間好不好 好"},{"start":40.714,"end":65.469,"text":"一個我看這個經濟部啊針對今天的報告啊你們報告裡頭說中友這個採購案啊在你們看來啊都符合程序嘛對不對目前你的了解是這樣就是說這個中友給你的報告你看完你覺得是符合程序的就這麼簡單沒有任何你們覺得很怪的事情"},{"start":65.985,"end":78.192,"text":"我們就從行政程序上面我們去了解一下這個案子有沒有跟採購法的這個程序有沒有相違接下來我們請這個工程會這個站在工程會的角度啊這個案子不管這個"},{"start":88.739,"end":107.435,"text":"幾期的工程啊這個媒體多所報導那裡面也寫說站在什麼專家的角度看起來好像也不太對什麼先叫廠商報價然後再公告再進行這一個評選"},{"start":111.183,"end":134.532,"text":"我們一個工程在進行的時候要多少錢才能做完的這件事情在工程界裡頭不管設計的公司設計建造或PCM在事前把可能潛在的廠商進行相關的詢價這是合理的嗎這是一般正常的作業方法好"},{"start":135.202,"end":153.819,"text":"那巡駕完的這些廠商被巡駕的廠商可不可以來投標如果他這個相關的招標的資訊已經公開的沒有迴避的問題好那現在站在工程會的角度這個案子你們看起來有沒有怪怪的"},{"start":155.284,"end":177.912,"text":"因為如果照媒體的報導好像問題比較出在是巡價跟顧問公司提出預算的那媒體不管是他自己想像的或者是有人講的或者是怎麼樣怎麼樣如果你們看完這些報導那你覺得在工程上這有沒有怪怪的"},{"start":178.447,"end":201.174,"text":"目前我們就程序上來看我們看不出來有什麼特別的問題所以我們會去進行工程的集合集合形式上看起來我們有先去瞭解就形式上看起來不曉得問題是出在哪裡是沒有發現有異常這案子裡面有啟動相關的瞭解多久了"},{"start":202.026,"end":229.098,"text":"因為媒體報導當時的那個檢舉並沒有到公審會對 我知道我們是這一次媒體報導以後那麼我們才啟動內部的一個先了解那因為我們的了解只是從相關的政府公告裡面去得知啦那我們要進一步去看個案的文件的話必須啟動集合的這個制度那啟動集合的制度才有辦法去看個案現在還沒啟動"},{"start":230.378,"end":258.509,"text":"現在準備要啟動但是先從政府採購的相關的在你們手上的文件嘛因為那都公開資訊就去研判他到底有沒有跟一般的採購案不太一樣那至於這一個個案就是要啟動相關的集合才能夠查清楚嗎現在的這個程序到這裡好 接下來請忠友"},{"start":260.482,"end":284.76,"text":"委員長 這個案子從比較少的經費到比較多的經費你都參與嗎我不瞭解委員的意思 從比較少的經費是值的就是說他後來推出去嘛 本來經費比較少然後往外推嘛 這個過程你也在中游嗎這個過程你都有參與嗎 有參與那台灣世襲在這個案子的角色是什麼"},{"start":285.728,"end":314.597,"text":"他是我們委託的專業顧問公司做什麼 他從事細部設計港的這個細部設計還有預算的籌編以及招標文件的撰寫那監照也是他們 監照也委託他監照也是他們 那專案管理是誰專案管理也是委託他委託台灣世西就是設計監照 專案管理都是台灣世西好 那台灣世西在這個案子裡頭歷年歷次提出來的"},{"start":315.191,"end":335.403,"text":"金額相關的討論你也都參與嗎這個部分沒有比較重大的才會有參與好 我是說從這個現在到幾百億最新的這個數字你有參與嗎沒有 我收到的話就是他們提報的一個238億我知道 我是說這個數字你有看到嗎"},{"start":336.822,"end":364.144,"text":"要公告之前 就公告招標之前嘛好 那你們說這個世襲送來的這些資訊啊你們內部會進行相關的你們的名詞 進行相關的這個查對啦諸如此類的事情你們用什麼專業去評估世襲送來的是對的我們當然就是做複合啦對 複合 你們怎麼複合那我們就是對於比較大宗的這個材料的部分那我們自己公司也有以往"},{"start":365.748,"end":388.909,"text":"你們是處理材料的單價嗎數量呢數量是屬於台灣四溪他要去好所以在你們這個階段就台灣四溪送進來有單價有數量有各式各樣的工法包括直接工程間接工程假設工程全部都有嘛對不對那在你們這一端處理的就是個別比較大宗的材料的單價是的其他呢"},{"start":391.57,"end":414.581,"text":"其他的沒有 就是就單價的部分其他的 你們也沒這個專業可以處理這個你們如果有專業就不用找世襲 對不對所以說在國內的工程界是這樣嘛因為你要做 你不是負責任的嘛所以你們就拿了一筆錢 請各個工程顧問公司那全台灣也不是只有世襲嘛世襲要來做這個案子 也是 你們也是招標的嗎對 也是經過招標才好所以送進來之後 對中友來說你們就只處理到那一個"},{"start":420.538,"end":421.639,"text":"那你們會有意見嗎當然會經過討論會議去討論我說你們怎麼討論"},{"start":442.373,"end":460.539,"text":"當然先經過會議去討論你們內部也會有專家去檢核譬如說海事工程專家土木工程專家相關的這些專家去檢核世襲交來的東西嗎是啊 是啊我們公司自己也有工程人員OK 所以就是說世襲送來的你們也會做檢核"},{"start":461.687,"end":479.099,"text":"最後請問董事長 這案子這樣子下來啊照你的瞭解啦 照你的瞭解這個案子啊 中油的內部啊不要管行政程序有沒有瑕疵那裡面內部的事你判斷喔 這個案子這樣下來中油公司有沒有人會被移送法辦"},{"start":480.219,"end":501.68,"text":"我目前來講我不會我對我的同仁非常有信心我不認為我們公司的人有涉入在這整個過程中就你的了解啦我有對同仁有信心OK就是說對你現在你當董事長或之前總經理你掌握的這一個資訊你認為中油公司的同仁在這個案子裡頭啊"},{"start":502.741,"end":520.048,"text":"還不到這一個可能會被相關處罰的問題是就你有信心我有信心那行政程序上呢是有沒有瑕疵行政程序上也沒有瑕疵目前看起來所有檢視資料的腳都按照程序在走就這一個採購的案子"},{"start":520.868,"end":541.191,"text":"在中有歷次相關的採購裡頭這個採購的案子你看起來也沒有相關的瑕疵沒有也沒有相關的瑕疵是那這個媒體報導成這樣今天委員質詢成這樣最後你有沒有什麼要跟各位講說這個案子啊你們的最後的這一個態度是什麼"},{"start":542.093,"end":571.31,"text":"我態度就是說 現在既然有新市政嘛我們重啟行政調查來表達我們中央公司的一個決心當然在這個過程中檢調單位也會再調查我們可以互相搭配如果說最後是有這個事實或者是沒有這個事實那當然所採取的後續的動作就會不一樣好 因為你當董事長負全責嘛這個案子所有相關的文件我相信你想要看你也都看得到"},{"start":572.216,"end":595.619,"text":"那接下來包括法務部啊 調局或廉政署接下來或相關的檢察官在查這個案子的時候也一定會跟你們要 對吧那在跟你們要之前我判斷你也應該都會看過或者是你的幕僚人員也都會先看過這些案子的真實的這些資訊嘛所以到目前為止你還是很有信心 是的"},{"start":596.223,"end":606.223,"text":"好 那就繼續加油那相關這一個檢察官要的資料不要做任何的隱瞞那就交給這個司法去進行相關的調查好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abfb6b8891100f8210bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d80df8a4d5e0e61e30f1c420776665bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:53:08 - 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請洪部長部長日前在新北有個流性女子跟其6個月大的孩子她慘遭了丈夫殺害然後丈夫再自殺造成一家三口滅門的悲劇讓我們社會非常震驚"},{"start":33.94,"end":58.055,"text":"但是其實這則的家庭悲劇本來是有可能有機會可以避免的為什麼這麼說呢因為流性女子在當媽媽後他說雖然這個遭受到之前等不利對待但仍在他的社群媒體寫下諸如抱病懷孕生產顧娃我不能死或是沒媽的孩子最可憐等等"},{"start":59.076,"end":71.047,"text":"所以可見這個流性女子雖然身處人生的低谷但是她還是有這個母性的光輝但很可惜最終還是敵不過職場上的一些惡意所以我們也可以看到"},{"start":72.216,"end":91.434,"text":"流行女子她同時也抱怨懷孕時被雇主以不適任為由資遣求職時仍遭嫌棄說像看到鬼或者苦嘆說政府說骨欲生欲結果孕婦處處碰壁她遲遲沒有辦法找到工作導致經濟上的壓力最終也造成了這個悲劇"},{"start":92.984,"end":105.884,"text":"那根據勞動部的違反勞動法令的事業單位查詢系統近年涉及懷孕歧視拒絕家庭照顧假或者育嬰留職停薪不當處分這個違法的案件遍佈全台"},{"start":106.806,"end":130.122,"text":"那但是從這個法律事務所呢 科技製造業到律師那個醫療院所都有這樣的裁罰記錄所以顯示這個孕期跟育兒友善環境仍然很不足喔甚至有一些醫院的案例裡面也只罰了兩萬塊 根本不痛不癢所以導致了這起的悲劇發生 一家三口直接被丈夫"},{"start":132.017,"end":150.347,"text":"這個殺害之後再自殺所以我就想要請問部長我們到底要怎麼樣讓雇主在到這個在孕婦跟懷孕員工的看到他們的時候是可以看到寶不是看到鬼可以營造更好更友善的職場環境根本說明這當然不是看到鬼"},{"start":151.48,"end":165.531,"text":"當然不是我說他的這是他講的講講話的方式我說怎麼讓他們看到寶不是看到鬼你要怎麼樣可以真正的去改善這個環境不要再讓這樣子的社會憾事發生第一個其實"},{"start":166.972,"end":189.279,"text":"我們有注意到這個案件那這個案件當然發生在新北市所以第一但第一線會是地方政府要去做相關的查查但我們的確也現在也格外重視在職場上面不管是懷孕或者是育兒的勞工相關的權益這也是為什麼我們在提出一個這個我知道你重視我們常常也討論的蠻多的啊我是說根據這個事件啊"},{"start":191.46,"end":220.84,"text":"就看起來他就是還是沒有改善嘛就是說他還是有很大的改善空間我剛剛也講到甚至很多財閥他可能也很少不痛不癢那除了財閥當然我們不希望說只是財閥而已究竟到底部長到底你們有沒有精進檢討到底要怎麼做才不要再讓這樣子的憾事發生第一個我認為該財閥就必須落實財閥是那甚至是財閥的金額我們也願意來跟地方政府討論這是不是可以其實有一個怎麼樣的空間盡量大家去遏止這件事情"},{"start":221.564,"end":246.96,"text":"第二個這裡面的確涉及到一些職場上面的文化的問題所以我們目前有規劃接下來會有一個計劃來加強宣導另外我們也會希望能夠做一樣的計劃對懷孕歧視對的計劃那包括我們也會來跟相關的法律輔助的單位來討論因為在這裡面其實比較大的問題是有蠻多遇到懷孕歧視員工對他來說他遇到了可是他"},{"start":248.103,"end":268.742,"text":"不敢申訴不敢舉手或者是相對應可以保護他的資源不夠多所以我們其實現在也在規劃要跟相關的法律輔助的團體來這個法服來去合作那怎麼樣子可以給更多遇到懷孕歧視的勞工更多的支持最後一點我要說我們也有計劃"},{"start":270.223,"end":296.913,"text":"接下來針對像這樣懷孕歧視的問題如果被裁罰違法的事業單位我們會有個專案的揭露跟專案的公佈你們會打算往專案揭露跟專案公佈我們也希望讓外界知道這樣子一個企業很多企業他的形象看起來不錯但是居然還有懷孕歧視的狀況那我們也希望讓外界知道哪些企業會有這個狀況這也是我們希望能夠"},{"start":297.873,"end":321.716,"text":"提出來的作法 謝謝部長你有這個正面回應那也可以把你剛剛相關的你們打算做的經濟作為具體的作為給本席辦公室好可不可以兩個禮拜可以嗎我們會在應該是11月底對不對好我們會在11月底其實會把我們這相對應的計畫給提出來好就是兩個禮拜好謝謝接下來我要問一下青年失業率的問題這個圖中我們可以看到"},{"start":323.154,"end":342.141,"text":"接下來下一頁對途中我們可以看到歷屆的歷年的這個青年失業率有全體和各個年齡層的曲線都是平的那就是過去和現在實施的這個投資青年就業方案那第二期是112年到115年那初次尋職的青年穩定就業計畫等"},{"start":343.502,"end":363.383,"text":"我是覺得成效在哪裡我們看不到尤其是在第一期跟第二期的投資青年就業方案都有推動提供符合產業趨勢及就業市場的訓練課程措施那麼其中針對這個失業跟待業的青年執行值錢訓練計劃還有一個叫做青年就業旗艦計劃"},{"start":364.904,"end":390.086,"text":"那這兩項職前的訓練課程結果110年到112年的職前訓練的計畫訓後三個月的全職就業比率僅五成左右而已那落後青年就業旗艦計畫所謂逾九成的訓後全職就業比率那也就是說這個政府投資下去課程開了青年上完課了卻只有五成進入職場"},{"start":391.843,"end":414.159,"text":"所以請問部長這個部分是發生了什麼狀況要怎麼樣重新檢討跟文說明其實台灣的青年的失業率並沒有比OECD其他國家來的高其實我們大概都比我們針對這個計畫的成效來講第二個剛剛在那張圖上其實可以看出其實我們青年的失業率其實也這幾年一路的下降"},{"start":415.356,"end":433.28,"text":"那在各國其實都會有類似的狀況就是青年的失業率比總體的失業率來的高但是在25歲以後那個失業率就會快速的下降那我覺得會必須要去探究青年失業率相對比較高的原因大概有幾個第一個是其實很多的年輕人他其實還在一個尋職的這個"},{"start":436.261,"end":450.654,"text":"不確定的階段也包括他也在考慮他是要繼續工作他要進入職場還是要繼續就學那他也包括對自己在職場裡面的這個哪一個職涯選擇的 部長我們先針對我剛提出的這個問題你剛講是一個很大範圍的一個狀態我剛講是說這個計劃本身的成效他只有五成好所以"},{"start":460.123,"end":478.961,"text":"針對青年失業率這個問題喔其實自勞發署執訓中心到現在勞動力發展署各署成立青年職涯發展中心簡稱青職中心喔其實都一直是來協助這個青年規劃職涯的核心單位但是根據監察院的調查報告也發現有許多的問題首先"},{"start":479.662,"end":508.184,"text":"你們勞發署自107年設定這個輕職中心八大核心服務項目以來部分的項目目標值設定過於寬鬆導致達成率屢屢嚴重超標甚至有達成率破千的驚人成績所以我要講的事情是講白了這樣子的績效設定是不是流於形式這也導致無法有效評估輕職中心對於提升青年就業率或者是就業率至"},{"start":509.626,"end":523.203,"text":"職場續航力的實質表現換句話說就是這些設定的標準是治本設定這樣子的虛假KPI這個是監察院的調查報告不是我講的這個部分怎麼樣是不是可以檢討怎麼樣"},{"start":524.605,"end":543.952,"text":"把這個所謂產出型指標調整成為這個實質成效的成果型的指標以具體的來評估輕職中心在提升青年就業跟就業安置還有職場穩定上面的功能和效益跟文說明如果按照文前一張投影片那個50%的那個投影片"},{"start":544.844,"end":566.13,"text":"因為這個職前訓練計畫跟就業期間計畫其實它還是有不太一樣的定位跟屬性所以有點難直接拿數字來去做比較比方說職前訓練可能也會有一些他受訓完以後他可能就又會去念書好 部長我再跟你說那就是同樣的一個調查報告也指出輕職中心服務對象跟資源重疊的問題"},{"start":567.19,"end":593.92,"text":"所以輕職中心的服務對象廣泛的列入15到29歲各級學校的學生跟畢業的青年那其中一對於職癌的這個諮詢的對象也在學青年的比率偏高那業務內容跟大專業校的學生輔導中心高度重疊另外青年失業率最該重視的四個部分分別是長期待業者居家的這個減居族"},{"start":594.7,"end":618.672,"text":"或者是就是常常還有或者就是說這個卻志族啊有時候常常說有意願跟有能力工作卻因為種種因素失去工作動力者及就這個依就業服務法納為就業促進對象的青少年等不利就業不利族群喔所以就剛剛講到了你說有很多可能有分別可是這裡也講到他有資源重疊的問題喔"},{"start":619.893,"end":633.857,"text":"那所以勞動部似乎是要重新界定這個輕職中心的優先服務對象而非與在學青年高度重複做無用功的這個部分跟文說明其實這個分幾個層次來說明"},{"start":636.278,"end":652.424,"text":"第一個其實很多同學跟我們說其實學校裡面提供的一些職涯的資訊他們其實往往覺得不夠所以這也是為什麼我們其實需要進到學校裡面來提供大家求職的資源包括職涯的資訊的原因這是第一個因為很多同學跟我們說其實學校提供的是不夠的"},{"start":653.044,"end":674.55,"text":"所以你認為監察院的這個所謂的資源重置的報告是不對的不是這個意思所以我們認為把一個把這個關注的點放在在學的青年我認為這件事沒有錯但是我認為我們的確可以來檢討讓這些比方說長期的待業者或者是減居族或者是這些就業不利的青少年他們所受到的資源我認為可以再更"},{"start":676.09,"end":697.335,"text":"可以再把關注的點再更放在他們身上這部分我是同意的沒有錯就是你應該要把重點抓出來而不是資源一直重置但是在學青年是我們也是我們很重要的關注對象我認為這件事情是沒有錯的在我們的YS裡面這事情不一定有錯但我們可以把其他的部分尤其更弱勢的青年再增加再更優先一些這事情是我們可以來檢討可以做的"},{"start":697.875,"end":714.151,"text":"是 最後還有一個這個有關於青年就業的部分還有一個問題 輕職中心在一對一的職涯諮詢人員也存在人力流動率過高平均年資淺或者部分中心甚至平均只有一年多然後薪資偏低而且缺乏經驗傳承的問題"},{"start":715.692,"end":740.54,"text":"那當然就是各分屬材每年招標委辦一次的方式它也有可能不利於這個確保諮詢服務品質所以這個部分你們要怎麼精進因為比如說比較好的人才要怎麼留任其實他的經驗傳承的方案到底是什麼這個部分你們要怎麼去把它完善這樣子的品質是 跟委員報告基本上我們在每年的標案裡面我們都會有要求"},{"start":741.74,"end":761.034,"text":"受委任的廠商他必須要提供的專業人員的包括學精力以及他的工作精力所以我們在標案裡面每年都有做這樣的要求那如果是優質的人員當然我們會希望承接的廠商可以繼續沿用那這個我們在機制裡面是都有的所以你覺得現在已經是很完善了"},{"start":761.465,"end":784.976,"text":"我不敢說完善 但是我們在標案裡面確實有這樣的機制因為我們也擔心因為他是用委外的方式處理有可能因為換了廠商導致人員流失所以我現在想要提醒你們這件事情因為現在看起來是有這樣的問題你要輔導人家就業結果沒有經驗的傳承那你這些東西應該是要再去檢討是不是可以再給本席辦公室兩個兩禮拜相關的檢討報告好不好好那最後我們可以提供"},{"start":785.276,"end":806.57,"text":"好最後部長我還是要問一下其實今天還有很多人問到有關於這個全國一孩家庭有多少戶啦這個家事移工的這個部分啊我是想要補充問一下我想請問一下賴總統說出這個政策的時候有先跟你們討論嗎他有做過相關的數據的調研然後才講出這個政策嗎還是一時興起"},{"start":807.91,"end":818.755,"text":"我想總統講什麼不會是一時興起當然不會是一時興起那可是剛剛他們問很多相關的調查的數據你們都沒有那怎麼去說要做整件事我們都在評估中"},{"start":819.688,"end":839.569,"text":"你評估中但是他們剛剛好多個委員問譬如說現在全國一海家庭到底有多少戶那你們這邊是回答不出來戶政資料大概就可以看得到吧可是並不是當然我想要表達是有部分的家庭他有表達他有很明確這個需求但也不是所有的家庭都表達有這個需求"},{"start":840.849,"end":864.56,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們其實目前就是在相關的數據我們都在評估之中部長這關鍵的意思就是說賴總統在講出來這個之前有沒有跟你們討論過有那你們有提供相關的數據嗎我們有提供相關的資訊當然就在我們討論過程裡面我想所以部長這代表說他有跟你們討論過那你們也認同賴總統的政策囉我們現在就是在評估中"},{"start":865.293,"end":880.618,"text":"那他對但是你是評估中嗎正常的政策發表尤其是總統講出來話他不是應該是跟你們討論好很確定你們的專業評估完數據都出來之後他才會說好我們現在要做這件事總統也是把這個想法新聞評估所以"},{"start":881.238,"end":899.417,"text":"所以總統是話講太快還沒評估完成的就先講出來嗎總統不是話講太快你看總統也是請行政部門做這個評估請評估跟他宣布說要做這件事情是兩件事喔總統講出來這句話的這個概念真的跟你們所謂的評估不同所以總統其實也是請我們評估啊"},{"start":902,"end":914.175,"text":"所以本席想要表達的意思就是說那這個還沒講出來之前你們有沒有先具體的評估完才跟總統講這件事好那這件事情你是說他有跟你溝通了我們針對相關的政策概念當然有討論好那我想要請問那你們現在"},{"start":917.379,"end":937.395,"text":"大概評估的方向有哪些呢因為剛剛部長有提到有人說這個家庭幫傭社福義工家庭幫傭多少人全國一孩家庭有多少戶或者是說你剛才討論到有人說遲緩家庭遲緩兒家庭先優先或是要多元家庭評估又或者是你們要從點數上面去做調整這個部分有沒有大概的方向"},{"start":938.215,"end":958.723,"text":"我們還是在幾個原則上面去做相關的評估思考那第一個事情當然是當然我們也在意這個本國勞工的就業的相關的權利那第二個呢其實行政院請我們要考慮比方說多元家庭的需求不同家庭不同的需求第三個是當然希望能夠具體的減輕"},{"start":961.485,"end":980.005,"text":"這個家庭照顧的負擔者他的實際的負擔那大家也會在意是不是有一些在照顧品質上面也必須要留意這幾個方向我們都希望能夠考慮進來所以目前是這四個方向這幾個我們都考慮這幾個也是行政院請我們要評估的一些思考點"},{"start":981.226,"end":996.203,"text":"好 我還是跟部長說這個相關的評估要這個很務實的去做完評估之後再推出這個政策才不會導致好像很多政策丟出來像是試水溫一樣這不利於執政團隊讓人民的信賴好 謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab5acbb9a91127746bbfb6dfa65ed0fc1da41d86124363ebc256ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:41:02 - 10:53:01","影片長度":"00:11:59","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T10:41:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T10:53:01+08:00","duration":719,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.498468750000001,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.33221875,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":50.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.75721875,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.42346875,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.29971875000001,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.98471875000001,"end":109.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.31346875000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.70534375000001,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.89909375,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.36721875,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.26471875000001,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.41596875000002,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.27659375000002,"end":164.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.89971875,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.24096875,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.64596875,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.04034375,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.87409375000001,"end":286.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.01534375000003,"end":235.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.36596875000004,"end":302.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.07221875000005,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.57846875,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.75534375,"end":415.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.04596875000004,"end":434.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.34284375000004,"end":442.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.11784375,"end":457.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.37721875000005,"end":466.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.16471875,"end":470.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.42159375000006,"end":473.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.50971875000005,"end":481.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.66034375000004,"end":489.37221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.66346875000005,"end":521.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.1940937500001,"end":534.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.78284375,"end":550.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.0503437500001,"end":559.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.36971875,"end":633.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.63659375,"end":687.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.56221875,"end":678.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.65909375,"end":678.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.6928437500001,"end":678.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.29159375,"end":681.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.32846875,"end":695.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.50846875,"end":707.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.1059687500001,"end":717.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.0290937500001,"end":714.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.2309687500001,"end":720.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.29846875,"end":719.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.906,"end":34.2,"text":"謝謝主席有請洪部長黃委員好部長好今天針對勞保條例跟救福法的審查主要有針對三個題目來跟部長討論第一個就是有關於這個勞保財務或穩定撥補的可能裁員剛剛很多委員都有跟部長在討論中"},{"start":35.22,"end":50.033,"text":"第二個部分是5人以下的投保單位合理納保的可能方案第三個就是有關於就業服務法要求經常性的薪資4萬元以下在招聘的時候要揭露的修法的可能"},{"start":50.814,"end":74.991,"text":"那這個第一個部分就是有關於財務勞保財務可能來源今天其實排審的勞保條例特別是勞保政府最終支付責任入法的部分政府這幾年來其實一直都有公開的做了政治的承諾而且連續多年的撥補了勞保每一年都有一千億所以我們認為勞保財務的關鍵問題還是在於勞保財源或者是"},{"start":80.595,"end":87.424,"text":"政府撥補稅收的裁員錢要從哪裡來注入勞保基金才是核心的問題"},{"start":89.338,"end":113.604,"text":"那在這個核心的問題最近包括我們這個想想論壇在11月7號也發表一篇有關於聯金系列財務務需開源的這樣的這個不管是針對健保財源或是軍公教連改也做了一些討論那他列舉了有關於如何越獄飲水擴增財源還有這個延長"},{"start":114.944,"end":135.342,"text":"年金壽命的這樣的概念之下呢它有包括第一個就是政府要編列預算撥補那這個部分我們已經在執行當中那第二個就是有要希望能不能加增營業稅那為什麼要透過加增營業稅主要是因為我國營業稅相較於國際偏低有增加的空間"},{"start":136.543,"end":153.215,"text":"其實另外參考過去不管是菸稅或者是遺產稅可以用於在長照基金類似的概念將來能不能夠透過這個方式來撥補到這邊來第三個就是提高外匯存底收益率跟國庫的上繳率"},{"start":153.795,"end":167.751,"text":"那當然我們也了解這些都不是勞動部這邊可以單獨來處理可是針對這樣的想法 部長有沒有什麼樣的一些到底你的態度是什麼跟我們報告"},{"start":168.752,"end":186.401,"text":"其实对于任何能够有助于劳保基金财务的月域营水也好或者是能够加大水龙头的做法我们当然都愿意持正面的态度来看待"},{"start":187.361,"end":208.926,"text":"但的確因為不管是加徵銀索稅或者是儲權基金的設置或者是這個外匯存底相關現在我們看到有些人在講講的這個做法確實他都涉及到一些其他單位的權責尤其是財主單位財政部其他單位的權責那當然如果"},{"start":210.147,"end":219.988,"text":"这些财主单位那愿意来研议往这方面思考我们当然非常非常乐意那一起来讨论因为我想这些都会对老保的财务是有帮助的"},{"start":220.936,"end":248.195,"text":"所以最重要就是讓勞工朋友可以安心不管如何政府一定會負最終責任各種裁員我們就努力的來爭取相信部長也會努力的來爭取第二部分就是五人以下的投保單位納保的規範這是在這個勞保條例的第六條有關於事業單位是否要設立投保單位來幫我們的受僱勞工投保的問題"},{"start":249.176,"end":276.3,"text":"那其實這是一個滿有歷史的一個過程我們也知道勞保制度是在1950年就開始開辦那勞保條例呢是在1958年開始立法那後來在20年後就是1979年修法強制設立投保單位的人數從原來的10人降低到5人以上就要能夠需要幫所有的這些勞工朋友要幫他做投保"},{"start":276.94,"end":301.047,"text":"那五人以下的事業單位是否能夠自行選擇設立這個投保單位或者是由我們的職業工會來協助來投保這是目前在執行的部分那這樣已經經過46年來都沒有任何的修正那我們也了解說如果是採用這個過程的話我們可以看一下"},{"start":301.887,"end":324.78,"text":"在勞工保險條例是70年的悠久歷史所以呢他就設立五人之下的這個投保那如果晚近三十年來不管是全民健康保險法就業保險法勞工退休條例還有那個勞災的保護等等其實都有規定所有雇的勞工都要全部投保"},{"start":325.683,"end":348.286,"text":"這個基本上就有人數上的差異那如果從這個社會保險制度的一致性公平性跟合理性來說的話我們可能真的要麻煩大家共同來思考是不是還要維持這個5人以下的事業投保單位來投保這樣的這個可能的這種改變那為什麼需要有這樣的改變我們可以從下面的資料看到"},{"start":348.806,"end":377.906,"text":"如果是失業單位幫受僱勞工投保的話僱主要負擔70%勞工負擔20%那政府負擔10%那如果透過職業工會的話呢他就有不同的這個方式而且政府負擔的部分他要給職業工會做相對的補助所以如果是五人以下看起來走職業工會對於這個失業單位可能會有某一些處理的模式的選擇"},{"start":378.926,"end":407.991,"text":"那對政府負擔來講其實是增加了政府的負擔這個部分我們是很希望能夠有機會共同來討論或許衝擊會是大的可是如果能夠透過討論的話我們希望能夠做一些相關的改變那到底目前有多少多少5人以下是在失業投保單位在投保我們根據這個今年7月份的資料可以看得出來有77萬人他是有透過失業單位在投保的"},{"start":408.331,"end":414.81,"text":"那整體到底是多少的百分比這個部分不知道部長有沒有概念相關的數字我請"},{"start":417.15,"end":439.772,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是擴大事人以下單位要強制在勞保這個加保的這個部分當然是我們希望所有的勞動者都可以參加勞保或者是宅保所以我們在111年的5月1號開始我們受雇已登記一個人以上的雇主的勞工就全部強制納保"},{"start":440.182,"end":456.696,"text":"我們才會從勞保裡面把這個就是災保這些人把它拉出來單獨立法讓所有受僱的勞工都能夠受到工作上的保障這是第一點但是對於強制參加勞保的這一塊因為勞保的費率也是比較高"},{"start":457.496,"end":471.231,"text":"那我們經過多次的邀請勞資團體的意見溝通那與會的代表大概都還是認為這樣會大幅的增加我們雇主的成本那也可能會轉嫁到勞工的負擔會影響勞工的權益"},{"start":473.573,"end":499.87,"text":"那另外當然對工會的運作也會造成一定的影響那小型的單位他的人力物力也會不足那影響的層面包括企業包括工會或勞資團體都有餘力所以目前還沒有達到修法的公式了解所以我們才希望說有沒有機會再請到中部研議修正如果在勞保條例第六條修正以投保為原則的可能性如果"},{"start":500.55,"end":523.601,"text":"很難執行的話是不是能夠用一些增加限制納保的要件來做相對的規範那也希望能夠定期公開五人以下投保單位人數的占比統計可不可以麻煩這個部長這邊可以針對這個需求來提供書面意見給委員會參考兩個月好我們來把相關的"},{"start":525.422,"end":549.769,"text":"我想我們把相關的一些評估那也讓委員這邊可以知道那之所以現在制度是這樣幾個考慮點在哪裡好謝謝那最後一個部分簡短的請教一下部長有關救護法修法跟薪資透明政策的部分那今天其實有一個重點就是希望讓這個青年可以納入到這個相關的範圍裡面那我們也了解其實年輕勞工"},{"start":551.129,"end":575.194,"text":"救福就業的因素其實是蠻多元的尤其是整體就業環境是促進青年就業的重中之重可是裡面的薪資透明化的政策也是非常重要的依據根據救福法第五條目前是針對薪資四萬以下的介入的規定必須要在提供職缺的時候如果沒有公開揭示的話則是必須要受到規範"},{"start":576.934,"end":594.299,"text":"我們也可以看到下面一個數據4萬元好像是不少可是那是2018年制定的2018年的時候基本工資是2萬2千元那這幾年來其實勞動部很努力的希望讓最低工資提升已經從原來的2018的2萬2千元變成了"},{"start":598.42,"end":615.669,"text":"2025年28590到明年生育會到29500所以包括健康性的平均薪資是5萬中衛師是4萬那如果我們還是用4萬元來處理的話相對似乎是在這個調整上必須要重新來思考"},{"start":616.189,"end":643.802,"text":"那這一部分如果我們不要是定額而是用一個比例比如說如果將來改成最低工資的1.5倍啦或是什麼調整的機制那能不能夠讓這個目前所制定的4萬元這樣的方式可以做有效的調整不知道部長的意見是現在跟委員說沒有其實在去年的經發會就行政院的經發會其實這個行政院也有指示我們要來研議那把這個"},{"start":645.924,"end":669.542,"text":"行之透明的這個門檻那再往上那去年當然有講到是5萬那當然現在我們也不排斥那因為很多委員其實也都提醒因為最低工資單逐年調漲那說不定到一定年份以後其實又有點接近5萬那所以這個是不是有可能他反而是一個最低工資的某些N倍N的一個倍數"},{"start":670.502,"end":694.164,"text":"然後來作為一個調整這個薪資透明化門檻的機制我想我們也正在研議這個做法解釋在想說哪一個倍數會比較適合的確就國際上面來說的話薪資透明化的確是一些國家能夠來去透過資訊公開的方式來促使薪資往上拉或者讓雇主不敢開那個"},{"start":697.563,"end":719.153,"text":"很不想要讓外界知道的低薪的狀況這是一個很明確的做法所以我們也很希望這個研議能夠趕快來推出好 那是會麻煩把這個研議報告一個月提供給委員會跟辦公室來討論是 好 謝謝OK 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝汪委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"165517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab362cf5b56ae215b0bfb6dfa65ed0fc1ddbd0c7f9f51010c4a26d91266f61260a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:57:58 - 12:06:10","影片長度":"00:08:12","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T11:57:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T12:06:10+08:00","duration":492,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.51346875,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.137218750000002,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.15409375,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.17096875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.69409375,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.90909375,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.650343750000005,"end":32.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.66721875,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.96659375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.034093750000004,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.28721875,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.16409375,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.58534375,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.65596875,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.79471875,"end":56.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.844718750000006,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.56596875,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.523468750000006,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.27784375,"end":70.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.75409375000001,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.48784375000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.83721875,"end":79.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.42346875,"end":80.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.68909375,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.81534375000001,"end":84.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.59159375,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.63784375,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.01721875000001,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.48971875000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.76784375000001,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.18534375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.37909375000001,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.69909375,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.88034375000001,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.17971875,"end":103.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.52096875000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.30096875000001,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.81971875,"end":112.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.04284375,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.87784375000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.47659375,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.62409375000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.46284375,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.72409375000001,"end":130.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.94284375,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.52909375000002,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.75221875,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.49034375000002,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.73034375,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","s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請部長部長好這個原住民與非原住民的平均移民的落差一直都非常大"},{"start":44.169,"end":66.154,"text":"我們就以去年來講 平均落差是7.54這個年齡如果我們從山地原住民 平均落差是9歲如果是男生 就男生而言 山地原住民是10.38歲的落差 平均移民"},{"start":67.752,"end":95.212,"text":"整體原住民是8.77這個平均裡面的落差在這樣一個情形之下所以我們相關的這些無論是這個公教警消軍人或是尤其是勞工這相關的這些潛意就會受到很大的落差的影響"},{"start":98.775,"end":126.11,"text":"所以过去啊我们就政府机关都会重视唯独现在一直还没有完成的就是我们的劳工的部分我们看国民年金法第53条国民年金法定了很久了年满55岁的原住民一般非原住民是65岁原住民就是55岁我们看这个"},{"start":127.759,"end":153.827,"text":"公务人员退休之前府系法也特别明定一般的公务人员是60岁就自愿退休原住民降为55岁就是有他的实际的年龄平均移民实际的落差的关系公立学校的教职员也是一样法律都这样定的"},{"start":156.024,"end":177.41,"text":"原住民在教職員公立學校教職員也是原住民身份者降為55歲就比一般的退休年齡可以降連農民退休儲金這是新的法例農民退休儲金條例本席在審查委員會提案的時候針對"},{"start":180.287,"end":201.304,"text":"原住民的部分全国原住民跟身心障碍要不同的所以法律就明定要按照他的平均移民来去计算所以农民退休除菌条例的施行细则根据这个条例然后定了施行细则"},{"start":202.321,"end":227.743,"text":"也是要去七分全國原住民身心障礙的生命移民移民來去訂定所以這個都是有一個已經有法律的依據了法律的可以參考所以這個部長所以我們原住民的部分"},{"start":228.789,"end":253.206,"text":"在勞工的部分是不是也應該要比照來訂定請我們市長來跟委員報告 剛我有提到那個國民年金的那個是原住民給付原住民給付那是一個津貼的性質是由原民會編列公務預算來發的那國保的老年年金也是原住民的部分也是跟平常人一樣都是在65歲"},{"start":254.867,"end":273.349,"text":"發給那在勞工的這個部分主要是因為原住民整個勞工經濟整體的保障我們覺得不只是保險包括就業促進跟社會津貼的這個部分那嚴明也跟我們一樣都是"},{"start":275.191,"end":301.844,"text":"慢慢人口在高齡化所以整個社會保險都是採 逐步提高青年年齡的機制那老保的部分我們已經有可以提前五年齡減而年輕的機制那整個老年幾戶也不是用平均餘命來當基礎所以為了制度的公平跟財務的安定整個幾戶條件應該跟一般的人一樣因為我沒有分族群那以上跟各位跟委員報告"},{"start":303.055,"end":320.293,"text":"那個部長你支持剛才的同仁的說明嗎跟這位說明當然市長其實在講的確實是在整體政策上面的一些思考的點那其實從"},{"start":323.016,"end":349.213,"text":"從保險司或者是從我們在思考整體勞保年金的改革的勞保年金整體的制度來說的確會一直要去顧及一個相關的橫平性那尤其是一個比較完整機制的部分所以確實在這個基金的運作裡面比較沒有從身分別那去做差別化的處理剛才你那一計畫部長那一計畫橫平性很重要就是要從橫平性"},{"start":351.479,"end":366.321,"text":"刚才的说明都没有横平性就是因为要横平所以要按照实际的情形我们就讲年龄他就有这么大的平均移民的落差"},{"start":367.711,"end":391.053,"text":"就不橫貧嗎 按照現在的法律就不橫貧嗎按照你勞動部所主管的這些法律就不橫貧嗎跟我們說 因為現在比較會有的討論比較是在青年年齡是不是要往更高來去拉所以對於要把某些部分的青年年齡要再往下降這件事情確實是需要比較多的考慮所以你對這個"},{"start":393.625,"end":418.802,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的平均移民有這麼大的落差毫無手感所以這個部分跟委員不是這樣子的比方說我們就我們在這個平均移民的問題上我在當委員的時候我們也很支持比方說透過原建法或等等等等盡量的來讓我們在原住民族的這個健康的狀態或者是這個那個部長大家能夠來努力那個已經"},{"start":420.723,"end":449.375,"text":"你那樣的說法已經最起碼10年以上都是這樣的說法啦而事實上我剛特別擠了這麼多的法例從國民年金法降為55歲公立學校教職員降為55歲我們的公務人員的法例也是降為55歲農民退休儲金的條例"},{"start":451.038,"end":453.977,"text":"这是最新的法力这是上一届才完成的"},{"start":454.591,"end":479.643,"text":"我應該說的部分都是退休金的部分不是這個一樣的他不是社會保險跟勞工保險不是一樣還是看年齡跟文說明老保是你沒有年齡嗎還有年齡的規定跟文說明老保是我們在主條審查的時候再好好討論老保是社會保險然後剛剛的退休金的部分有他在這個"},{"start":482.586,"end":488.344,"text":"上面退休性質跟社會保險還是有不同的好我們在主條的時候再好好討論好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abe0c3ee68357880b0bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d80df8a4d5e0e61e35298a28bd9a4829e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:38:04 - 11:57:51","影片長度":"00:19:47","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T11:38:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T11:57:51+08:00","duration":1187,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.629093750000001,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.71721875,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.58534375,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.31096875,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.06659375000001,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.81534375,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.15659375,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.82284375,"end":198.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.63284375,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.92784375000002,"end":260.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.32346875,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.21034375,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.73909375,"end":372.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.35659375,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.58034375000005,"end":403.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.18721875,"end":410.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.92471875,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.80221875,"end":411.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.98784375,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.28284375000004,"end":425.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.88846875,"end":426.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.06971875000005,"end":428.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.58846875,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.38034375,"end":438.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.46471875000003,"end":440.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.99159375000005,"end":443.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.55221875,"end":446.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.12159375000005,"end":446.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.89784375000005,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.26034375,"end":451.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.45409375,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.45659375,"end":472.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.05846875000003,"end":475.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.21784375000004,"end":479.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.63534375,"end":482.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.21284375000005,"end":485.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.31784375,"end":494.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.65409375,"end":500.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.61096875000004,"end":501.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.47159375,"end":506.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.51721875000004,"end":508.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.82909375,"end":523.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.3078437500001,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.64471875,"end":558.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.57221875,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.93159375,"end":591.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.8959687500001,"end":594.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.56659375,"end":599.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":598.75596875,"end":613.42034375},{"speaker":"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是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長部長 超高齡社會的來臨少子化勞動力不足也是一個問題但是勞動力高齡化危機也是不容忽視"},{"start":31.767,"end":51.056,"text":"但是我們要問的就是說政府和企業準備好了嗎那新秉隆教授他有提出來他說上上一次我們勞基法修法這個強制退休的規定修法只做了半套因為我們允許勞僱雙方協商可以在延後那他們其實認為說其實政府應該增加幾個"},{"start":56.138,"end":85.263,"text":"鼓勵的機制留任的機制那協助企業不要只用年齡作為退休與否的這個判斷基礎那強制退休的規定喔還會造成老人貧窮因為高齡者被強制退休以後你知道的再度就業事實上找到了工作跟收入都會低很低在這種狀況裡面他們提到第一個就是說不應該因為年齡設限而應該要訂出留任"},{"start":85.723,"end":111.465,"text":"留任65歲以後因為我們的修法是雙方要協議那雙方如果沒有協議的話還是要被強制退休其實我們應該要教企業如何評估讓65歲的員工留下而且也需要有檢測的機制專門定期的關心高齡者的工作狀態另外高齡者退休以後的收入如果不足以負擔他的生活費的話"},{"start":112.445,"end":140.388,"text":"應該要規範想想想繼續留下來工作卻被強迫退休者的問題這個問題其實知識體大另外有人說其實應該參考這個南韓或者是說其他的國家我們要政府要定一個鼓勵的政策這個鼓勵的政策要鼓勵企業僱用一定比例的中高齡的勞工"},{"start":141.068,"end":159.807,"text":"那他雇佣到一定比例以後呢我們給他獎勵而不是現在說63、64歲到了借齡要退了才給獎勵這樣子可能會鼓勵這樣的企業可能這樣政策方向或許可以是我們下一次的這個政策檢討的時候要討論比較好的比較務實的啦你覺得呢"},{"start":164.861,"end":191.113,"text":"跟委員報告的確其實現在很多企業都在講這個缺工那我們在幾乎每一次的跟企業的座談也都跟他們提及其實恐怕未來中高齡的勞工占我們的整體人力的重要性只會越來越提高我自己感覺其實也越來越多企業其實接受這個看法的確我覺得接受這個看法而且願意在中高齡勞工上面"},{"start":191.653,"end":213.843,"text":"去多做投入跟嘗試的企業我覺得越來越多但是我覺得政府要拿出政策手段來因為這個OECD在2023年的時候指出人工智慧的導入在性別年齡和薪資上都有具體的影響效應那特別是性別上面是女性是較顯著那年齡上面就中高齡所受到的衝擊是影響最嚴重的"},{"start":216.484,"end":238.619,"text":"所以在薪資變動上是很明顯的對年輕族群來講AI的導入是對年輕族群有益他的薪資或許會提升但是呢中高齡和年輕人可能會兩極化M型化在這種狀況裡面我們需要政府的政策手段出來而政府的政策手段我要引進最近104的幾個報導幾個調查104他們最新發布了2025年超高齡社會企業"},{"start":246.064,"end":258.445,"text":"人才他永續的新思維白皮書在這個裡面呢他們2025年你看那個數據2025年企業友善中高齡職缺的只有28%"},{"start":261.42,"end":278.933,"text":"企業普遍認為 聘僱中高齡的最大難題是薪資過高請問你對聘僱中高齡 你遇到哪些困難企業遇到覺得 這個中高齡年資升了 漲了薪水都比年輕人還要高所以他們普遍認為 勞動成本高"},{"start":281.255,"end":294.381,"text":"但是他們標示 而且擔心標示了中高齡在虛空的廣告上去標示說我們歡迎中高齡的話他們認為說會影響年輕人的應徵的意願 那事實上"},{"start":301.804,"end":323.323,"text":"中高齡求職就一般的來看我們從企業端他覺得如果我在求職廣告上面求徵員工的廣告上面寫了我歡迎二度就業好像年輕人就不來了可是我們從勞工的立場來看這個民調他們也做民調了104也做民調了政府沒有做的104都在做了我認為"},{"start":324.324,"end":346.43,"text":"這本來都是政府應該要實際上去協助和去做的調查真正的勞工在想什麼年輕的勞工在想什麼真正的勞工你去找工作的時候最先考慮到的是什麼年輕人並不是思考到說我不想要跟中高齡一起工作所有的勞工不管是哪個年紀他們第一個想到說我工作的地點是我第一的需求51.9%"},{"start":348.351,"end":369.743,"text":"但是第二個他們的需求其實講的是說我的薪資要可以得到多少所以在這裡啊這裡面數據沒有列出來是93.7%的年輕人正向的看待中立的看待標示歡迎中高齡的企業的求這個不是求職的徵才"},{"start":373.425,"end":398.444,"text":"所以企業都覺得說他們過去的那種概念其實是錯誤的可能錯估了求職者的心聲而錯失了中高齡的人才這是我第一點要講的第二點呢我國50歲以上的各年齡層的勞參率你知道普遍低於南韓美國日本和新加坡部長"},{"start":399.625,"end":406.176,"text":"我國在這個50歲以上的勞參率是多少應該是大概50出頭53吧53.54"},{"start":413.345,"end":438.378,"text":"你知道日本日本和新加坡在45歲到64歲勞參率仍然有八成45歲到64歲人家是80我們是6767.2這個但是呢如果在65歲以上65歲以上你知道日本是多少新加坡是多少嗎65歲以上應該還有20幾以上"},{"start":441.721,"end":461.386,"text":"20幾 新加坡還32.5而台灣只有多少9.9 10沒有錯所以這種狀況裡面我們看到勞保財務惡化但是呢政府也從來沒有去提到說對提高中高齡就業率他也是一種方法"},{"start":462.529,"end":485.104,"text":"那個跟我說明其實我們在中高齡的就業的專法通過以後其實很多計畫都開始實施而且其實也蠻有成果的其實這幾年也蠻有成果的那你現在告訴我你們具體的政策有哪些有成果的有成果的因為我剛才看到的數據也是最近的113年去年的"},{"start":486.743,"end":506.893,"text":"報告委員其實我們有一個在專法通過之後我們有一個正位中高齡跟高齡者的三年的專案計畫那我們都是滾動檢討那我們目標就是每年要協助12萬人投入就業職場那對不起是人次12萬人那我想我們會朝這個目標持續的努力好沒關係你這樣講我也聽不懂"},{"start":508.914,"end":527.799,"text":"但是我就拿你們自己去年的數據113年中高齡及高齡的統計113年中高齡及高齡男女的失業人數各為6.4和4.3所謂的失業人數是他有就業意願65歲以上不是中高齡和高齡"},{"start":528.699,"end":553.82,"text":"他還有就業的意願可是男女加起來還10萬人以上那個失業率呢還是2點幾%平均起來男女加起來是2%以上而且我們看到女性的失業的狀況還比男性還要更嚴重因為女性容易因為家庭因素提前離開職場但是他很想重回返職場可是他的限制很多"},{"start":555.521,"end":579.298,"text":"這種狀況裡面是這張圖嗎是這張圖所以這種狀況裡面中高齡婦女友善環境對他們講是最迫切的需求所以你們說你們的政策端出來我們就不知道說跟103年來比跟10年前來比去年的統計的數字103年跟10年女性中高齡的失業人數還增加了2萬人"},{"start":582.597,"end":587.041,"text":"2萬人時間前女性的這個失業人數45到64歲是23000人到113年是43000人蛤"},{"start":596.316,"end":611.308,"text":"所以你們說你們的政策做得很不錯我不是說不錯或者是說不需要再改善不是這個意思我是說其實這幾年因為之前那個中高齡的專法修了以後其實很多計畫在推廣那也包括"},{"start":613.069,"end":629.758,"text":"所以計畫推廣最終一定要落實在一個數據上面有意願工作卻找不到工作的那他的失業率應該要下降啊人數應該減少啊可是我們113年還比103年還多兩萬其實不是多兩萬是多一倍多一倍"},{"start":631.258,"end":652.666,"text":"我們是看到比率上面的勞參率是有提高但是就實際的絕對性的數字的話我們可以來再看一下他之所以現在呈現在委員資料裡面的原因是什麼我要再講104人力銀行的數據近三年你知道整體的勞動市場已經供小於需求了供給小於需求只缺多於這個求職者"},{"start":653.906,"end":678.46,"text":"那企業要因應這種就業勞動力的結構上的轉變其實應該逐步的去開啟這個中高齡人才的門在這種狀況裡面你看得出來這個中高齡友善企業率與友善職缺率你看友善企業率從49變成54友善職缺率他其實"},{"start":679.48,"end":688.886,"text":"他已經盡量再友善了這個比例也增加了5%可是他提供出來的職缺只成長了4%所以在這種狀況裡面45歲以上求職者的這個"},{"start":696.191,"end":724.61,"text":"標示說我們要歡迎45歲以上來求職的企業的比例從113年49提升到114年的54%這個已經是專法通過了看起來他好像很重視中高齡的這個重要性了不過實際上在願意這個求採的招募資訊當中公開標注歡迎中高齡的職缺的仍然不到三成"},{"start":726.351,"end":751.168,"text":"然后仅有33%的企业会明确在求财的说明当中讲出说欢迎中高龄或二度就业这种友善其实是很难得到的专法过了其实也没有所以我们看得到调查的数据显示中高龄的族群平均每个月主动应征的人数在近三年成长了34.4%"},{"start":754.349,"end":757.533,"text":"你看每個月成長了34.4%從112年的6.1萬人到114年的8.2萬人"},{"start":765.013,"end":786.272,"text":"這明顯的沒有反映到中高齡的勞產率就是說即便中高齡的勞工他已經比起過去更願意主動應徵學習但是呢這個東西有沒有對照到提供機會做明明就是工作職缺很多找不到人可是這些中高齡"},{"start":787.173,"end":809.13,"text":"仍然在那裡因為年齡的歧視所以就找不到工作然後65歲以上的高齡者甚至被邊緣化然後中高齡每個月主痛應徵的人數三年內大幅成長但勞參率有改善嗎45到65改善一點多少點"},{"start":812.577,"end":818.627,"text":"成長多少啦4%那問題是雇主端聚用呢"},{"start":819.558,"end":842.957,"text":"其實從你剛才的數字可以看出兩件事情第一個中高齡願意求職的人數也在增加那有戰職缺的數字其實也有在增加那只是這兩個之間的增加當然我們覺得我們還有一些東西比例上還有落差對我們可以做得更好那裡面有幾件事情第一個是我們現在很重視比方說確實很多中高齡跟企業都跟我們說他們其實需要更多職務在設計的資源"},{"start":845.319,"end":867.308,"text":"那植物在設計的資源讓其實讓很多的職缺他可以更友善於實際上面遇到中高因為他可能身體上面他比較難負重或者是各種在這個職場的情境裡面他需要多一點的幫忙所以你們的職業訓練的對象是不是要有一部分的資源甚至更大的資源要從訓練這個年輕人然後要播出來給中高"},{"start":872.33,"end":885.893,"text":"甚至65歲以上當然所以你的政策上對應出來了嗎尤其是我們希望能夠把職業在職務在設計的部分做得能夠更細更細膩因為不同的行業可能會有不同職業職務在設計的專業的know-how在你們的職業訓練裡面裡面你們的課程的改變中高齡的參與人數有成長嗎跟委員說明我剛才說的職務在設計不是等同於職業訓練我知道對那"},{"start":901.636,"end":921.978,"text":"那高齡者目前其实是有专班的那只是没有我就问你说你专班的设计上有成长吗服务的人次有成长吗我们可以来再调一下因为你讲的很正确也很好听可是我们必须要落实在职训上面具体的课程上面人次参加的人次上面"},{"start":922.338,"end":948.351,"text":"我們可以來調相關的數字但不管是職業訓練或職務再設計都希望我們藉由這些具體的方法可以媒合更多現在有就業意願的中高齡進入到其實是有意願開放給中高齡的這些職缺對我現在看你官方的統計主計總署在人力運用上面中高齡113年5月中高齡和高齡失業者未未遇工作機會所遭遇的困難你知道"},{"start":948.971,"end":977.807,"text":"他们陈述的就是年龄限制大家对45岁以上甚至是将近65岁他们都有很大的年龄上的歧视所以真的是很困难然后大家企业也有固有的成见企业说欢迎中高龄会吓走年轻人但是我们看得到就是说年轻人认为这样的做法是加分的负面是极少的所以我们还看到2025年人资FBI调查也指出"},{"start":978.867,"end":1002.944,"text":"僅招募40歲以下的求職者的企業平均要71.8天才能找到合適的人才如果你開放了40歲以上的求職者同時開放他平均可以縮短52天平均招募的天數縮短28%顯示僱用中高齡更能有效率的補足人力缺口"},{"start":1004.124,"end":1022.51,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的希望說依據你們自己的統計中高齡及高齡統計你們也看到女性在中高齡現在因為她的再就業她沒人要用她只能從事什麼都能只能從事較低技術層次之類的大概有七成"},{"start":1025.171,"end":1047.665,"text":"就低技術職類將近68.75%女性只能去做這種工作男性就以生產操作及勞力工124萬佔了42.1%最多女性以服務及銷售工作人員54.3萬人生產操作和勞力工女性也佔了48萬人"},{"start":1049.326,"end":1067.283,"text":"所以我們看得到就是說中高齡七成都集中在低技術的職類代表他的門檻被拒絕真的是他想要再進入職場真的就是被拒到他只能進入那個最低薪的勞動條件最差的"},{"start":1067.984,"end":1092.473,"text":"所以這種狀況我們在一直講說你要去改變這個結構性或者是真的不符合企業所需人才上的問題你的執訓你的職業的轉職的能力然後你的課程你未來要怎麼去設計一個更友善的這個都不容忽視要有數據要有KPI讓我們看得見"},{"start":1095.154,"end":1122.78,"text":"我們現在看到是勞資雙方都有往中高齡這邊去禁用或者是去求職的意願但我們也覺得在這個趨勢之下我們應該更大力的拿政策的資源來去推進這是完全同意的我一開始就跟你講不是只有在雇用而是留用留用是一開始我就跟你講你要留用他如果留用65歲以上留用了以後我有什麼獎勵案鼓勵是應該是有那你有什麼獎勵鼓勵政策有"},{"start":1124.13,"end":1151.638,"text":"我們有繼續在僱傭的獎勵啊 什麼獎勵獎勵也要 也要人家實用啊 看得到 吃得到或者是真的可以造成誘因啊而不是為不足道啊啊 什麼 你說有 有什麼針對借齡退休的我們鼓勵僱主繼續僱傭借退的勞工那獎勵12個月每個月13000元的多少人次來申請"},{"start":1154.799,"end":1181.675,"text":"113年度是2000餘2000餘案那一年65歲退休多少人每年65歲以上借齡退休的多少人64歲借齡退休不知道我們就是沒關係你去把它調查出來讓我們看一下這個政策的有效性需不需要再擴大如果有效的話需不需要再擴大"},{"start":1183.188,"end":1187.636,"text":"好OK好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請"}]}},{"id":"165515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abde9c6376d4a9ae79c344f506729c478c80df8a4d5e0e61e3c3fce4b81f0d65c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:36:18 - 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近年還有一些公安事故已經造成了欺民工人的死傷監察院跟勞動部都已經要求中油的檢討看來三接的工程品質也有一些令人質疑的部分 建造的失職還有內部管理的問題 似乎在現階段都要很積極的來做一個處理"},{"start":186.972,"end":205.083,"text":"本席這邊要請教董事長的事那這15座的那個破裂的城鄉的品質瑕疵究竟是怎麼發生的是設計錯誤呢還是材料不符還是建造單位疏於查驗那第二個部分是建造過程當中那有沒有定期來抽驗滾泥土的強度還有化學參比的一個比例"},{"start":209.266,"end":237.885,"text":"那如果有或者是您在這邊沒有辦法很清楚的這個細節的回應的話會後是不是也可以把相關的資料給本席針對本席上面所指的問題那最後一個部分是那麼你們有沒有針對施工廠商跟建造單位啟動他這個工程品質相對違約的一個相關機制跟責任的救處那是不是可以請您針對以上問題很快的簡短的跟本席做一個回應謝謝委員讓我有機會呢就這個部分做說明"},{"start":239.208,"end":243.145,"text":"對於公司來講 對於工程的品質呢它是品質至上的"},{"start":244.358,"end":271.027,"text":"這個品質是沒有什麼打折扣的空間對於這個城鄉破損的原因我特別說明一下破損的原因在哪裡並沒有說摻混比例不足的問題也沒有摻混特別的化學品在裡面那麼這個破損的原因是因為這個城鄉是在台北港的地去做預置預置之後他要放到一個暫存區去養護"},{"start":272.668,"end":297.629,"text":"那麼在剛開始的時候這個每一個城鄉暫存的距離不夠所以因此在港區裡面如果天氣不好的時候有湧浪去推頂這個城鄉就會造成城鄉之間的一個碰撞所以應該是在設計的這個部分可能有些不太專業的地方沒有 是城鄉完成了以後放在暫存區的時候兩個城鄉之間的距離不夠"},{"start":301.472,"end":326.002,"text":"所以這你們就要跟海事相關的一些專業來做討論常常在工程本席這邊發現尤其台灣的海域在工程上大家就是工程做工程的可是針對特殊的地形或者是特殊的需要很少去諮詢或者是做比較更完整的一些討論所以做出來的東西要嘛地形不符或是沒有了解到您剛才講到永浪的這個問題那這應該很多海事專業的人他們應該會了解"},{"start":329.784,"end":351.299,"text":"不同區域那麼海底跟這個海的這個變化那這就本席提出來一個問題啊所以不管你們是在哪一個階段那畢竟您說在暫存的時候那間距算的不夠就產生這樣一個問題對不對所以它這中間還是有一些可以再檢討的部分嘛對不對我們也檢討了所以把暫存的距離把它放大"},{"start":352.319,"end":369.03,"text":"第二個原因就是當這個城鄉從台北港拖到三接所在地去定位完了以後需要把這個城鄉裡面要放置石塊還有沙去把它填滿填滿這些動作的話就必須要有機具去做"},{"start":371.692,"end":386.085,"text":"這個黃艙它做的時候 它是用怪手 沿著這個沉箱的頂去開過去以後 去做這些相關的作為但是大家也曉得 就是說這個怪手的話 它是一個鋁帶 鋁帶帶動的這個鋁帶就會造成這個沉箱的上方"},{"start":390.849,"end":405.858,"text":"會去把它剝落造成它的傷害所以原因在這裡那後續的話我們就要求他們你要做這個事情的時候你應該在上面要鋪鋼板來去避免那個怪手的履帶跟"},{"start":406.638,"end":432.923,"text":"城鄉去接觸那麼後來也解決這類的問題所以這應該是一個施工技術你們可能過去沒有經驗或者是在過程當中沒有事先做好這個部分的一個討論但是重點是在於說這個城鄉發現有破損你怎麼去處理那這個處理的過程中我們當然第一個要確定說你的鋼筋混凝土的比例有沒有用對不對那所以我們要求就是說你要去專心把這個取樣出來來看這個取樣的產品"},{"start":435.963,"end":461.179,"text":"因為你們在檢測的時候對本席這邊就您剛才講的工程的部分當然有相關的專業可是本席這邊要跟您再次強調未來這個機會應該也很多所以你們在這個階段所碰觸到的問題本席聽起來就是沒有因應地理環境然後跟海事相關人員很確切的把可能每一個階段會施工的"},{"start":461.719,"end":487.485,"text":"產生技術性的這個問題把它在先前做好我想這應該給你們在下一個階段的這個工程的技術處理上你們應該再更縝密一點然後前面發生的狀況不要再發生才不會引起外界的一個疑慮所以你們剛才說這樣子弄好了之後可能因為前面的階段又產生了你們可能要再去專心去了解一下這結構上或者是混凝土的比例等等是不是OK我覺得這是連帶的"},{"start":489.986,"end":507.839,"text":"所以你們這其實也很容易讓人家本席剛才所提出來的那比例有沒有參混那或許在不是很專業的施工過程當中導致這些疑慮那我想這個應該不僅是你們內部要再做一個檢視那未來也不要再發生了"},{"start":508.919,"end":529.106,"text":"那這個是本席針對這個部分如果有試射你們在檢視的過程當中那有試射政府採購法比如說101條那如果有這個品質不佳或偷工減料的情勢您剛才講的是施工的這個部分嘛但是如果因此而產生的本席所講的這些狀況那我想你們應該要"},{"start":530.626,"end":546.356,"text":"這個工程會 不好意思 你們要很清楚的釐清 是不是有將這些業者 假設有這個情況發生要登載在公報上依照我們這個相關的法規 那目前聽這個忠祐這樣講 你們大概有了解施工的一個狀況"},{"start":547.116,"end":564.136,"text":"不過重點就是說那個公共工程我們如果能夠多一些專業的這個處理那可以少一些後續大家的疑慮那甚至搞不好真正萬一在這個過程當中大家不明白或者是真有一些觸法的情勢發生那我想這都是大家不樂見的"},{"start":565.057,"end":582.972,"text":"所以基本上這個工程品質我們希望不要讓這個東西再成為海上豆腐渣那也希望在你們施工的時候呢不要再去衝擊到原本都在海邊生活的環境跟人好嗎好 謝謝那接下來我們就針對請防務部 調查局還有這個廉政署"},{"start":587.413,"end":608.59,"text":"委員好謝謝這個很短的時間如果相關的訊息沒有辦法很快的回應再麻煩你們會後補一些資料我想今天這個主題很多都是針對媒體的揭露原本94億元的這樣一個價格然後在招標的過程當中引發"},{"start":609.631,"end":634.86,"text":"不僅是疑慮啦 已經有這樣弊案的一個產生那基本上就是原本大家的這個估價到最後呢一路漲到150億、220億那麼可能中游也有很令人很疑慮的這個部分所以產生這樣所謂的圖利的問題那不知道部長您對於原本的估價到後來受業者的一個暗示也好 明示也好或者是指示也好 那到最後"},{"start":635.76,"end":643.601,"text":"那個報價已經維護平常您覺得這樣子有沒有圖利的問題跟委員報告因為這個案件已經在"},{"start":644.963,"end":674.463,"text":"立案已經在調查偵辦中那我也很關心這個問題我相信檢察官他對這些媒體的報導會做一一的釐清那事實上這部分本席所講的剛才那個狀況就是說原本報價那業界大概都知道是差不多怎麼樣子的一個價格結果到最後出來的這個感覺讓人家很福報的這樣一個結果這個如果有這樣子的情勢發生應該基本上可能有影響而且可能到了一個土利的"},{"start":675.503,"end":700.568,"text":"這部分法律上的一個評價要用證據來做一個認定那必須要經過調查那我相信整個委員官心的以及媒體所報導的這部分我相信檢調連辦案單位他們會去注意到這些的問題的一個調查釐清那調查的結果因為我沒辦法去預設這個結果所以我們就尊重辦案單位的一個偵查的一個步驟跟計畫"},{"start":703.379,"end":709.705,"text":"好的 各位本席認為如果有剛才本席所講的這樣一個情勢那確實是已經到了一種圖利的階段當然您講的這個狀況是說目前在調查中那您不便做一些回應但是本席是認為剛才本席講的如果原先估價是如此那業界大概認為這樣估價合理可是卻很不合理的讓人感覺到福報"},{"start":727.422,"end":747.009,"text":"甚至有人很確定也是福報的話這樣子基本上應該是有一個圖利的行為產生了這是我們是就法論法跟就狀況而言但是針對這樣您當然是媒體的報導目前檢調在處理一切就依法跟依規來看最後的結果是如何"},{"start":747.389,"end":764.242,"text":"但是當然報載這個部分也值得您這邊參考一下在2022年跟2025年的檢舉報載說檢舉人皆被沉默以對是不是有人蓄意的押案你們是不是可以來啟動一下內部的一個了解"},{"start":764.822,"end":790.508,"text":"是不是有一個相關責任需要去做做釐清跟處理第二個部分是避免工程圖例被選擇性的辦案重大的弊案被吃案這是一般民眾常常會有疑慮的這個部分法務部你們應該建立一個重大採購案的檢舉專案的監督機制不管您覺得有沒有或者是您可能有一些不同的考量"},{"start":790.908,"end":811.379,"text":"但是我想民眾的這個疑慮或許你們可以透過一些像機制平台的這個建立或者是更積極的一點溝通讓大家對於這種疑慮去減輕我覺得也是你們的一個相關的責任雖然你們都依法論法但是本席常認為就是說這法務部在某一些事情的處理上可以更積極更親民一點"},{"start":813.38,"end":823.31,"text":"讓民眾了解然後也減少一些疑慮我覺得這應該是法務部除了你們在法律的專業以外那也應該讓民眾可以了解的您的看法呢"},{"start":824.811,"end":842.78,"text":"我想這個我們絕對沒有吃案那個只有檢舉的話有的我們都會收文都會入案那這邊該去走行政調查路線或者是做司法調查或者是調查完了結果這部分我想我們都會做有一些的處理其實像廉政署他沒有接到檢舉的話"},{"start":843.92,"end":868.777,"text":"其實有前幾個他們有個廉政審查會他會請外聘委員外聘委員來做一個檢視然後看看有沒有可以再調查的如果可以調查我們再重新調查那如果說這個調查已經可以告一口斷絡我們會再請那個機關再去檢視你們是不是在做一個更積極的一個防攤的一個作為那我想這個都是有這個機制若委員現在了解我們用書面來做一個回應"},{"start":869.902,"end":883.339,"text":"好的 謝謝部長 所以希望法務部調查局你們在這個月提供一下內部的檢討跟相關的疑雲的釐清的相關報告給本席基本上對大家的疑問"},{"start":885.141,"end":900.211,"text":"或者是更積極的一個溝通平台處理像本席剛才提到一個建議就是說是不是可以有一些重大採購案的監督機制檢舉專案的監督機制的可能性那我覺得都可以做一個參考跟討論"},{"start":901.572,"end":926.107,"text":"跟委員報告我們調查局是在今年8月的時候才收到一次的檢舉這是針對這個個案啦那本席今天談的是大概一整天大家針對這個個案延伸出很多的一個問題的詢問或者是某一些建議像剛才鄭委員就建議說有些東西我們現在碰到了那未來就不要再犯所以本席這邊也建議說那如果民眾有疑慮就是這個重大的這個這個案好像有被"},{"start":927.108,"end":932.212,"text":"因為有設置機構的單位應該都有受理的機制是一個告發檢舉的機制我想這部分我們會後如果說我們再用書面來做一個會"},{"start":943.501,"end":964.395,"text":"所以相關的細節就麻煩你們再補一下相關的資料給我們做一個參考好 謝謝這麼的討論基本上是大家都希望一個司法正義那疑慮常常都會有那我們怎麼樣去溝通這樣一個疑慮我想這個應該是一個永不止息的必要性好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab6f33c16e438c8ab6c344f506729c478c80df8a4d5e0e61e37928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:22:51 - 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謝謝主席是不是請法務部正部長還有經濟部的何次長好 請部長還有次長委員好部長 您好"},{"start":33.208,"end":60.521,"text":"我想因為媒體在報導在2024年曾有這個飆落廠商檢舉類似的內容經濟部政風單位當時已經展開調查結果並沒有發現一些不法的行為那我請問八卦次長八卦這次檢舉時間到底是王美花的當部長的時間還是郭志輝前部長的任內"},{"start":62.222,"end":79.267,"text":"我想本案是疑點重重啦那本心是希望說檢調啊應該要儘速查清楚如果調查後發現媒體踢爆的全體資料有變造的情況似乎會另案來偵辦部長 您的看法勒"},{"start":82.176,"end":108.605,"text":"謝謝委員 那目前的話就是由台北地檢指揮調查局跟廉政署在做一個偵辦那事實上檢舉的那一部分剛才也講過了在去年在2013年9月的時候廉政署就有接到檢舉有請政風處來做一個行政調查那另外在今年那個調查局跟廉政署在今年的8月都有接到檢舉都有立案了"},{"start":109.105,"end":123.661,"text":"那現在都已經立案在偵辦了那我們也希望就是勿往勿中積極來瞭解釐清來做一個 若有的話那我們就嚴辦到底他是在王美花部長那時候任內還是在郭志輝部長任內"},{"start":127.033,"end":151.718,"text":"這個三階工程的話應該是在王部長任內時間很長啦因為政府採購法第70條規定機關辦理工程採購因明定廠商執行的品質管理環境保護以及施工安全衛生之責任並對重點項目訂定檢查程序以及檢驗的標準"},{"start":153.678,"end":174.631,"text":"那另外工程施工查核小組作業辦法第四條也規定民眾或廠商檢舉啊媒體報導或有資料顯示已有偽私或異常的工程標案工程施工查核小組啊應該要視為施工進度優先納入來查核"},{"start":175.532,"end":194.232,"text":"那我請問也請工程會的代理人來上來工程會的委員是否會優先做這個啟動工程施工查核小組來查核中油三接的整個工程是否有主要材料設備與設計不符的這種狀況"},{"start":197.879,"end":222.426,"text":"包委 就工程查核的部分當然是有個選案的一些標準但是就工程會因為去年我們並沒有工程會沒有接受到這個案子的檢舉函所以我們去工程查的時候並不是針對檢舉而是依照這個例行性的一些挑案所以由經濟部去查核兩次工程會去查核一次但是我們去查的時候並不知道有這個檢舉函那個"},{"start":223.82,"end":234.735,"text":"因為根據中游說法觀塘接收站外推方案的外擴黃波堤興建工程是委託台灣4C公司來規劃先期作業成項"},{"start":240.302,"end":255.33,"text":"三家業者訪價也有進行公開閱覽程序後並考量整個營建物價的這個指數才進行工程的設計編列整個招標預算的金額以招標文件的製作"},{"start":257.352,"end":276.469,"text":"當時該項工程的設計在台灣市區董事長就是前立委叫施易芳任內是民進黨的音系那如今有新的錄音黨出現透過媒體來爆料這當中有沒有民進黨派系裡面的"},{"start":278.47,"end":304.377,"text":"惡鬥因為到上週五台灣市區目前的董事長是鄭運鵬以前的立委同仁都沒有對外來澄清駁斥相關的報導來指控令人好奇的是否有交通部行政院甚至於總統府的高層指示台灣市區不要對外發言這種狀況真的講外界有這些質疑"},{"start":306.243,"end":323.164,"text":"這是讓人家感覺說為什麼整個台灣世襲裡面頭到尾你們規劃設計但是到真正發生問題人家在質疑的時候你沒有出來澄清這個人家就打問號啊對不對 部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":326.077,"end":354.892,"text":"那這個案件您是在在偵辦中了那這部分我就不再講我希望積極處理啦這部分一定大概檢察會有不管到底有沒有弊端有弊端就給就要這個馬上偵辦沒有弊端的話當然也就是還他一個清白我認為這個很重要不要用拖延的方式來做處理那是大家不能接受的因為這個時間已經很長了不是今天才發生的"},{"start":355.752,"end":369.937,"text":"對不對 那有沒有作為就是看這裡今年10月1號 媒體報導美國農業部次長來台推銷美國乙醇生殖的燃料稱只有再汽油加入10%的乙醇混合物"},{"start":370.957,"end":385.134,"text":"有助來降低整個溫室的氣體來排放那也可以推進雙邊貿易夥伴的關係那過去政府在中油曾經推動升值柴油的政策但民眾抱怨"},{"start":386.095,"end":414.494,"text":"反應容易造成車輛故障等因此104年監察院也糾正整個經濟部以及所屬的人員局的有關那升值能源的政策適當那本席是希望說經濟部在推動進口美國乙醇升值燃料時不要花大錢當冤大頭要記得過去升值能源的政策失敗的原因也鼓勵民眾使用乙醇升值這個"},{"start":416.535,"end":431.204,"text":"燃料時務必要確保不會造成民眾車輛的損害我相信這個站在大眾的立場應該要如此去做那因為時間到了我就不再後續繼續詢問那謝謝召委 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"165512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab39bfe157d564361fbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d80df8a4d5e0e61e356a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:10:02 - 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來看到"},{"start":140.443,"end":164.322,"text":"看待到底這個勞保這個部分這個基金應該怎麼去做一個因應跟改善改變的一個方式然後提出這樣的一個建言也給勞動部來做參考我最後要講的就是說政府撥補幫勞保基金來續命前提不會有人反對啦政府負最終的責任"},{"start":165.511,"end":189.017,"text":"大家都會舉雙腳贊成對不對但是如果每年都要這麼補到底是要補多久到底是要補多久然後如果是常態性的這樣補那當時設立這個勞保基金的目的跟現在的這種處理的方式那顯然不是已經都已經變樣了"},{"start":192.173,"end":209.916,"text":"走鐘了嘛然後我才要跟部長來就較這幾個問題嘛第一個我們現在看這個勞保基金的規模大致上是一兆一兆一千多億嘛一兆二下半年突破一兆二"},{"start":211.836,"end":228.97,"text":"你是怎樣 怎麼不會動你是聽到快倒了所以你很緊張是不是然後這個老闆請找債務是13兆多嘛對不對 沒有錯嘛目前所以就將近10倍了"},{"start":232.117,"end":242.331,"text":"將近10倍出了那救治的軍工教育人員的退休金是3兆然後這個公務人員的退休補習金是差不多在2兆左右嘛主席總書這應該沒有問題嘛 對不對這數據正確嘛"},{"start":247.295,"end":259.61,"text":"這數據正確吧OK 好 謝謝我為什麼要用這來比喻因為這也是根據組織總署截至6月底的統計指出台灣中央及地方政府潛藏負債總計來到20.5兆"},{"start":262.634,"end":282.051,"text":"我如果有數字上的一些川普你要提醒好不好然後這是潛藏的債務而且台灣目前的國債也高達6兆多然後但台灣一年的整個這個付稅才收入也才3兆多我是用這樣的一個財務條件來看待這個事情如果"},{"start":283.174,"end":298.295,"text":"我們一般的家庭要知道有這樣的狀況就必須要尊潔支出然後請到省值花但是如果有多餘的進帳就要趕緊來補這個缺口沒有錯嘛所以你應該都可以認同我的講法嘛沒有問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":299.677,"end":319.954,"text":"所以在112年全國共同努力下台灣度過三年的疫情邁入後疫情時代台灣整體的經濟發展在疫情時對比其他國家仍屬於前段班然後蔡政府當時有提出疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算案3800億還普發了6000元這個大家應該記憶猶新嘛而且也特別編列300億"},{"start":328.219,"end":353.994,"text":"補勞工保險基金沒有錯啦好 對今年換了新政府我們因應國際情勢強化這個經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算高達5450億也普花1萬元給民眾結果不僅台電沒有辦法接受撥補聯勞保基金在這次特別預算也僅撥補100億"},{"start":357.219,"end":363.303,"text":"沒有錯嘛 今年對 上次預扣的特別預算3800億撥補勞保300億 佔當時的預算是7.9%這一次5400多億是這個3800億的1.43倍 結果只撥補100億佔比僅1.83%"},{"start":383.956,"end":397.3,"text":"部長什麼原因你沒有積極爭取你不重視各位你說不是因為第一個當然因為這明年的明年的公務預算裡面我們已經爭取1200的這個1200億的撥補的金額所以其實這跟當時在那個112年或者是111年當時的狀況"},{"start":411.805,"end":440.516,"text":"其實也會有不同 所以整體來說其實我們現在撥補的金額並沒有比較少那當然這是再加上這個這次特別預算裡面的100億我都用特別預算來跟你講嘛 對不對我用特別預算來對照嘛 1200 1000不談我就用特別預算來對照嘛發3800億的時候可以撥補到300億5000多的時候只有撥補到100億那基本上就是減少嘛所以你講的兩個因素就會擔心嘛"},{"start":442.111,"end":467.621,"text":"對不對 一千兩百一千不談嘛 就只用特別預算來對照我們會盡量再來跟主總爭論所以我知道很多不是不是部長的因素啦但是我還是提醒部長可能要更積極來做相關的運營也可能要跟行政院講說過去有這樣的數字 有這樣的撥補那現在這個特別預算的規模更大高達之前的特別預算是1.43倍怎麼可能反而在這個撥補的金額去縮小了"},{"start":473.472,"end":501.211,"text":"所以這部分提醒部長那我再給部長看兩件事情看一個訊息這是兩位教授講的那第一個是陳教授改革要多管齊下除了政府撥補投資效益基金投資效益讓基金維持一定在水位下政府也可以舉在仿效挪威的成立主權基金把這個收益專管專用及強化社會保障另外一個是郝教授長期而言老闆還是要啟動年輕改革初期對薪金流量影響不大所以應在年改前啟動儲備基金"},{"start":503.112,"end":516.628,"text":"一個是主權基金 一個是儲備基金那儲備基金過去立法院在第十屆的時候立法院有很多同仁也都有做這樣的建議甚至於是說裁員的超徵稅收並要明訂超徵的八成都要作為該儲備基金的來源"},{"start":520.269,"end":535.719,"text":"但是這個之後就沒有進度了我不曉得主委總署跟國庫署怎麼看待這件事情如果你們要回應都可以然後再來對比勞動部這次特別預算中只爭取到100億我是覺得這個是真的大家要來檢討"},{"start":538.3,"end":560.03,"text":"這個大家要檢討因為時間的問題那第二個不只是儲備基金我們賴總統在今年520的就職週年也宣布將成立主權基金打造國家級的投資平台這兩個社會關注的問題一個是勞動部的勞工保險基金勞工的退休基金會不會是主權基金的組成之一"},{"start":561.653,"end":578.97,"text":"因為現在大家都說這兩大勞動基金有主權基金之實沒有主權基金之明你們怎麼回應第一個齁 那這個勞動基金目前在主權基金的這個組成的討論裡面我請我們這個運用局來跟委員說明請說明"},{"start":581.344,"end":600.722,"text":"我們勞動基金的性質主要是來自於勞工大眾所以我們對於主權基金我們不會直接用勞動基金去直接的投資參與我們性質上比較不是這兩個基金不會成為主權基金的組成之一啦你要回答我是這樣對不對好那就明確囉"},{"start":602.196,"end":622.432,"text":"不會有變動喔在目前的討論裡面是這樣在目前討論嘛往後的討論會不會變動我們就是很清楚的表明其實目前勞動基金是我要跟部長討論這個事情是這樣嘛他如果未來不是主權基金之一那最好那如果未來是你們要怎麼因應"},{"start":624.451,"end":651.03,"text":"我們沒有 目前沒有收到你們有相關的這樣的一個評估嗎目前沒有收到要把勞動基金放到主權基金裡面最好就是沒有嘛如果有你們要怎麼處理嘛好 如果沒有的話如果沒有的話那未來的主權基金成立之後有沒有機會也可以挹注到勞保基金上我們不去做它的組成之一但是如果成立主權基金那勞保基金是不是未來有性了可以由主權基金這邊來做相關的一些"},{"start":653.827,"end":665.595,"text":"這當然是我們現在在北歐的這個組成基金模式裡面有看到這個狀況是有看到這個做法那任何有助於勞保的裁員我們都會使正面的態度來看待了對"},{"start":667.707,"end":692.794,"text":"會持怎樣 我們都持正面的態度 希望能夠演繹啊如果單純持正面態度來看待我們希望能夠終於爭取各種可能性天上不會 北港某年掉下一個禮物給你 不可能嘛 對不對我們會持正面態度來爭取所以是不是要相關的一些評估跟盤點然後是不是也要有所規劃包含儲備基金 包含未來的主權基金"},{"start":694.502,"end":710.471,"text":"你們是不是有一些相關的一些因應跟評估的這樣的一個作為我想我們會來做因為財源的事情非常非常的慎重然後而且也非常重要所以我們當然任何可能有關可以成為挹注勞保基金的財源我們都願意來做評估"},{"start":712.158,"end":731.645,"text":"所以我們可能就是要適好做組準備嘛應該是這樣子嘛可能我們自己的版本要很多種當行政院當中的這邊在準備主權基金的過程裡面我們現在在委員會已經答覆了喔不可能稱為這兩個基金不可能稱為主權基金的這個成分之一喔"},{"start":732.085,"end":760.558,"text":"我們其實在之前在委員會上面有表達這個性質上真的不太一樣當然是不太一樣啊不過有時候有些事情的變動也不是部長可以現在這樣答覆我然後到時候的這個怎麼講反正因應整個世界的這種輪動啦很多事情的變動速度是很快的啦好不好然後儲備基金有沒有要盡快來納入評估"},{"start":762.796,"end":785.672,"text":"我覺得現在只要各方有在談到的的各種經過我們都願意來評估但不過這確實也需要全職單位一起來這個研議啦對所以所以是我要成立這個儲備基金未來如何應驗主權基金的相關的未來的分配是不是有個可行性的評估可以來給委員做參考我們可以來評估一下那來跟委員這邊來說明對好兩週內"},{"start":789.742,"end":801.044,"text":"一個月 兩個月可以嗎 兩個月這本市會期結束前可以嗎 可以 謝謝最後部長有掌握到這個新聞嗎請他請回 主席跟那個國務署請回 不好意思 都不可以蒙到哪一個新聞 有沒有弄出來嗎"},{"start":816.243,"end":820.136,"text":"蛤 你是很擔心勞保倒了是不是不然你今天怎麼怪怪的"},{"start":824.557,"end":850.027,"text":"有個新聞是到台南的職安處去申訴整個身份資料竟被直接寄到公司那是相關的三人患堵職罪這起案件是勞動部轄下的職安處承辦員在發送公文的時候直接把當事人的名字全部露出直接讓該保密的案件攤在陽光下這個大家都知道就這案"},{"start":851.147,"end":858.653,"text":"部長知道嗎 有掌握嗎 有知道 這是個案嗎這個案子應該是在台南的食安處他的發文發錯了"},{"start":862.444,"end":887.389,"text":"我請署長說 部長你要用發文發錯了跟委員報告這個案子的話因為目前台南市是部分授權有一些事業單位轄區還是在治安署的南區中心那這個申訴案呢應該是發文給我們本署的南區中心結果在正本呢誤植給原申訴公司所以是誤植 剛剛我們有了解那個案子是誤植"},{"start":888.844,"end":903.658,"text":"一個物質可以把證人相關的這些投訴人相關的名字 當事人都把他露出來因為物質所以這非常不適當 這確實非常不適當部長剛才打呼我這樣 署長又打呼我這樣那這個事情顯然大家會沒完沒了"},{"start":905.56,"end":924.425,"text":"我們剛修的職安法還有霸凌的專章還有要如何保護當事人然後我們現今的法律勞動良法這個報導裡面特別提到最後一段有勞動良法都有所規範然後上面的報導裡面是講這個公益階段7月上路沒有規範到這個事部門"},{"start":927.492,"end":951.782,"text":"滴滴答答講的一大堆 重重之重就是我們是有相關的規範 法律的規範在保護當事人 保護投訴人 保護這個員工怎麼這個事情還會發生到這種程度 上個禮拜還修了治安法所以這個錯誤是不能被接受的我沒有要求你再去對這些人做什麼樣的處置啦 但是這絕對不是個案"},{"start":953.631,"end":978.431,"text":"這絕對不是個案啦我想我們會來加強對檢察員的訓練部長我覺得這件事情對我而言在未完這麼久我覺得它是一個非常離譜而且非常嚴重的事情這等體的教育訓練是出了什麼問題是 我們會來加強訓練這個可能不只教育訓練出問題而且亦有民事故患的這樣的一個嫌疑但最終我尊重司法的這樣的一個判定"},{"start":979.111,"end":989.379,"text":"所以我不是說你要特別去做什麼處理但是我說它不是個案我們還有一個中心也是這樣有證人的訊息還被外洩被當事人知道並提告的狀況發生現在在訴訟中"},{"start":993.773,"end":1015.103,"text":"勞動部 洪部長你的主政之下這些事情你可能要特別小心是 當然對 因為前的部長是因為什麼事件下來這是沒有辦法被接受的現在如果不是主體是這些霸凌的事情反而是相關的當事人 投訴人經常有這種狀況持續的發生這代表勞動部上上下下整體這樣的一個機制 系統"},{"start":1019.225,"end":1032.283,"text":"甚至於文化我都覺得必須要 洪部長要大刀寇慎重的來面對加以的來管制處理不然這種事情絕對會層出不窮是好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉昭偉"}]}},{"id":"165521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab801d0d7f30736e0cbfb6dfa65ed0fc1ddbd0c7f9f51010c4156fa8563f3c78f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:39:40 - 12:46:22","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T12:39:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T12:46:22+08:00","duration":402,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.87409375,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.62721875,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.923468750000005,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.25096875,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.58596875,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.61096875000001,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.52909375000002,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.95909375000002,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.99284375000002,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.58346875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.48971875,"end":146.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.18159375000002,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.90284375000002,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.43846875,"end":174.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.45534375,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.26096875000002,"end":177.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.06221875,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.24346875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.58471875,"end":184.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.42409375000003,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.31846875000002,"end":188.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.87909375,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.46971875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.25784375,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.15221875,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.11784375000002,"end":206.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.69909375,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.17534375000002,"end":212.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.85846875000001,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.23721875,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.42471875,"end":234.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.84659375,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.87596875000003,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.65034375000002,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.95221875000004,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":269.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.06471875,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.82159375000003,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.58409375,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.05534375,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.86909375000005,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.33284375,"end":321.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.60096875,"end":340.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.83846875,"end":344.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.75784375,"end":346.33971875000003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部長好今天其實主要是我們要針對勞保條例我們在立法院有很多的修正案的版本那剛才也有委員提到就說確實我們現在以這個勞退來講勞保老年年金的這個請領確實是金額比較低那以現在其實有一個比較好的趨勢也就是能夠領兩萬元以上的比例"},{"start":48.506,"end":76.661,"text":"这几年都开始在增加但是事实上就说对于广大劳工来讲他即使月领2万元真的比基本工资都低非常非常的多但是从这个比例的上升比如说以去年12月底来讲就是勤领的年金每个月月领2万元以上的已经可以达到将近一半"},{"start":77.961,"end":94.267,"text":"而這個情理年金越增加當然也代表我們的就是這個年金大家在講的說勞保的一個潛在的負債的一個風險那麼當然也使得說這個可能會提前破產的問題"},{"start":95.407,"end":119.795,"text":"但是呢我們這一次的修法就是想要安定我們所有廣大勞工他們的心情不要認為說有一天他可能呢他的年金勞保年金他就都沒有辦法領到所以我想再確定一下以我個人來說我對於勞保條例的修法主要是兩大方向一個就是"},{"start":120.635,"end":135.415,"text":"把撥補勞保法制化這個剛才部長說願意嗎我們是支持撥補勞保法制化另外一個 民定政府負最後的支付的責任這個部長也同意嗎"},{"start":136.736,"end":164.482,"text":"政府付最後支付責任是現在本身的政策那如果要把它放入到條文裡面當然要放在條文裡頭我覺得這個就是把它法治化另外就是每三年檢討勞保的財務這個應該也沒有問題那現在剛才您特別講就是說你同意法治化但是並不同意說要一定的金額一定的金額恐怕就是還很著每一年政府財政的問題"},{"start":165.422,"end":194.55,"text":"那我想請問部長有沒有想過一個問題也就是說把這個撥補勞保把他法治化的這個過程裡面他的裁員從何而來從何而來譬如說我們現在政府做長照長照就有裁員包含菸酒的這個規費跟稅收這個合理嗎就是長照的裁員來自於菸酒的稅收"},{"start":195.35,"end":211.04,"text":"那以我們未來如果把它法治化之後有沒有想過它的裁員可以從哪裡你有沒有跟財政部或主計處去討論一下根文說明的確這其實也各界的朋友在倡議"},{"start":213.061,"end":234.567,"text":"第一個是其實對於可能潛在有可能的來源有些人比方有些人講到營業稅有些人講到是不是主權基金那有些人講到是不是有些外匯存底的可能我覺得這些可能可以挹注財源的做法我想我們當然相關的研議我講我們都是非常正面的看待這些狀況老實講"},{"start":236.427,"end":260.156,"text":"講裁員是有點困難固定裁員比如說最近健保的補充保費就軒然大波因為他動到ETF那種小資族的ETF健保保費不外乎就是從這個費率提高另外就找一個裁員老蔣我覺得主權基金跟外匯存底都是第一個主權基金在哪裡還不曉得"},{"start":260.376,"end":285.012,"text":"外匯存體中央銀行不會同我倒是覺得你們可以去跟財政部或者是金管會去討論一下證交稅證交稅我不是要把提高證交稅的稅率剛剛下面有人笑我不是要提高證交稅的稅率但是當股市非常好的時候比如說你知道我們光是10月份證交稅超過300億"},{"start":286.88,"end":301.101,"text":"就超過300億當然今年是比去年同期是少的今年因為有台美關稅的這個擾動但是呢因為證交稅我們這幾年常常稅收超徵都來自於徵交稅的貢獻"},{"start":303.621,"end":320.663,"text":"因為你股市好代表你的經濟好嘛代表你的金融市場好嘛那如果在他好的時候你提撥其中一定的比例挹注到我們的勞保基金我覺得是可以去想的一個"},{"start":321.684,"end":339.978,"text":"方法就像菸酒稅也沒有固定說每年一定大家一定要抽菸一定要喝酒沒有那也會希望大家健康啊少抽菸少喝酒他就向下來了他確實是浮動的他確實是浮動的但是他是可以去做考慮的"},{"start":341.139,"end":363.164,"text":"我覺得你什麼外匯存底喔 老實說啊我是說 剛才是說有人在提是是是 沒有錯沒有錯那當然你說營業稅 營業稅當然就營業稅是也是嘛 當然交易很好的時候也是代表這個整個的經濟比較好的一個狀況嘛所以我剛才講在金融市場你知道其實這個我們的衛福部最大的錯誤是"},{"start":365.305,"end":385.308,"text":"他動到這個有關於補充保費動到那個股息 股利因為他說兩萬塊兩萬塊就變成你是往小資族去開刀那當然引起極大的反彈所以我基本上增加稅稅率不用提高因為你提高的話哇塞不知道有多少人來跟你抗議"},{"start":386.249,"end":400.287,"text":"可是如果當這個證券市場比較好的時候可不可以提撥一些比例我覺得這是可以去想的方向如果我們要把它提撥法治化的時候好我看到我們的主席站起來了好謝謝可以去想謝謝王宏威委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abb72462b918790e57bfb6dfa65ed0fc1ddbd0c7f9f51010c4be8a7296b23f08fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"12:29:29 - 12:39:33","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T12:29:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T12:39:33+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.28159375,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.249718750000003,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.25721875,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.27221875,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.86659375,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.16034375000001,"end":93.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.65721875000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.45034375,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.98971875,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.68909375,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.33409375000002,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.64096875,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.25221875,"end":158.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.32284375,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.42784375000002,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.06909375,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.02159375000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.21971875,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.44159375,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.86346875,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.96471875,"end":215.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.18346875,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.81159375000001,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.07971875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.16409375,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.97409375,"end":238.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.31846875000002,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.51534375000003,"end":248.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.02159375000002,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.35846875000001,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.51846875,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.53534375,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.23534375,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.86659375,"end":271.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.70534375,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.28721875,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.37971875,"end":282.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.53409375,"end":325.27971875000003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我們請洪部長有請洪部長委員好部長好關於這個勞保我們這個入法的這件事情我想請問一下你對於勞保撥補法治化這個部分您這個整體提案大概有三個部分那我大概有三個方向就是說政府要負最後的責任"},{"start":36.357,"end":47.812,"text":"入法 還有政府每年撥補至少1000億入法那基金報酬每打6%國庫來補差額現在看起來你們的好像有其他意見是嗎"},{"start":49.318,"end":76.955,"text":"根文說明當然對於這個撥補這個概念把它入法我想我們不會反對啦但是對於要有一個固定的金額入法這件事情因為它牽涉到財政紀律法的第7條所以在這個如果要固定金額入法這上面就會跟財政紀律法第7條會有漢格主要是這個部分那其他的呢那針對那個每年要6%的部分"},{"start":77.615,"end":93.235,"text":"因为这个老保基金其实是这个确定给付制好那在确定给付制上所以比较不是刚刚我可以讲说好像是收益率没有达多少来拨比较不是这个概念"},{"start":95.497,"end":122.569,"text":"對 但是我們現在今天錄這個法只是希望讓勞工安心這個是最基本的當然也減少你的壓力可是我剛剛我想到一件事情我看到就是說今年6月底我們勞保的潛藏的負債是13兆5632億比起前一年11兆8628億增加了1.7兆那以按照目前的撥補方式也只是延後破產而已"},{"start":123.729,"end":148.936,"text":"對不對跟委員說明因為潛藏負債因為這是一個社會保險所以本來就有世財互助的性質那潛藏負債的原因是因為過去我們其實這個費率並沒有足而提撥會慢慢的增加所以在各國的這個公共的基金裡面社會保險的基金裡面都會有潛藏負債的狀況問題他每年都多這麼多"},{"start":150.771,"end":166.61,"text":"對 所以都會有潛藏負債的狀況所以這也是為什麼我們持續的在做撥補而且這兩年我們撥補的力道甚至都已經超過1000億你現在除了撥補你現在除了這個你有想到其他方法嗎第一個是撥補第二個是我們其實這幾年我們在基金的投資的效益其實都相當不錯"},{"start":168.092,"end":194.759,"text":"那甚至去年高多的話到16% 18%以上因為每次討論到這個勞保破產的問題勞工朋友都會非常擔心那當然他們擔心是不是會影響他的權益那要解決勞保破產的問題不是增加收入就是減少支出那現在看起來減少支出的部分原則上你們都不太敢碰那增加收入的部分除了每年提高基本工資跟撥補之外有準備調高保費嗎"},{"start":197.921,"end":222.611,"text":"確實 強化保費當然是各界其實會提出來的其中一個方向可是這的確牽涉到勞工的權益跟雇主的權益所以這部分當然我們還需要更多的社會的討論但是這個也是一種方式因為基本工資提高 保費就會增加當然我們增加幾十億也是不錯 也是增加至少也是一種方式就是說我在想就是說您在這個位置上"},{"start":223.431,"end":238.351,"text":"您會在你任內提出整套的改革方法嗎除了撥補之外我想其實跟委員說明對於維持勞保基金的水位那我們其實這幾年很努力包括爭取撥補是其中之一"},{"start":239.42,"end":267.081,"text":"也包括剛才說基金的投資的效益那我們其實最近也都有蠻亮眼的基金投資的效益那其實也給基金其實蠻多的因為你這個潛藏負債一直在提高我認為他不是好事啊對不對雖然是雖然是各國都有這種潛藏的負債他其實並不會一次的實現啊因為他也會說你可以請領相關的條件如果你沒有到可以請領的條件其實也不能請領潛藏負債是指說以現在所有的這個被保險的狀況假如當下"},{"start":269.222,"end":297.438,"text":"他當然不會一次的請領的話才是這個潛藏負債的狀況所以他其實概念上面當然我覺得我們要非常非常的留意而且要預作準備我們也要預作準備我再問我們勞動部公開國際勞動的統計結果之後看起來台灣被比喻為過勞之島這個說法不是讓得虛名去年2020年台灣的年工時2030小時是全球第五比日本還高"},{"start":298.619,"end":316.681,"text":"那在亞洲的部分是排名第二那今年五月我們國民黨跟民眾黨在民進黨的全面反對之下共同通過的這個還價於民至少把過去被民進黨砍掉的價還給勞工朋友那現在勞團持續呼籲特休的部分也要進行改革這件事你有掌握嗎"},{"start":318.032,"end":332.449,"text":"我想勞工團一直都對特休有這個天數上面的一些期待你認為這個數字有沒有修改的必要就是有沒有在進步的空間"},{"start":333.59,"end":352.478,"text":"第一個我想先跟委員補充在數據上面其實台灣的工時應該不是全球第五高啦因為這個數字這個表格並不是把所有全部全世界所有的國家都列出來但是的確我們認為台灣的工時怎麼樣可以做得更好我們跟隔壁"},{"start":353.198,"end":369.871,"text":"的國家比就好了 像日本韓國嘛如果是全時的工時的話其實台灣的工時統計下來並沒有比日本韓國來的高如果是全時我們這個原因是因為台灣部分工時的比例比較低就是以勞動市場來講 台灣最接近的是南韓嘛"},{"start":370.672,"end":399.741,"text":"那全時工作比例相近兼職的比例也相近如果全時比全時的話我們的工時是比南韓來的低一些的我們算起來2024年台灣是2030小時南韓是1859小時怎麼會比他低呢如果是全時來看的話去年113年每週的經常性工時的話台灣是41.5韓國是42.8我說以全時來看但是你那個如果是全時比全時的話"},{"start":401.922,"end":421.452,"text":"我們現在講全部啊對所以這也是為什麼我們說因為台灣的部分公司你不要把它拆開來講你們都找你們對你們有利的數字來講所以我說如果是全時比全時的話你不能這樣比你這個是整體的意思但是我可是跟委員說我不是說這樣台灣的公司就不用做出改革不是這個意思"},{"start":421.872,"end":446.233,"text":"我跟你大概講一下就是說南韓勞工這個一進公司就有特休台灣等半年才會給三天這就是公司差距的第一個來源那南韓用高額罰款實時稽查逼企業縮短工時那台灣的這個罰金太小稽查太弱公司自然降不下來那南韓勞工有合法權利可拒絕雇主要求加班強迫加班會"},{"start":447.094,"end":469.829,"text":"被認為是這個職場霸凌或這個非法命令那台灣名義上可以拒絕但是在實務上幾乎是無法拒絕的那台灣通常是主管一句話今天要趕工就變加班了那也就是說韓國政府讓韓國勞工有拒絕權但是我們台灣在政府的力道薄弱的狀態下勞工變成被迫的文化"},{"start":470.669,"end":492.56,"text":"第四個 南韓把過勞史視為國家責任我們台灣把過勞史視為個案處理南韓工會參與率是14%大企業工會非常強勢談判的結果 資方通常都會讓步但是台灣工會參與率只有7%而且只有勞動部常常站在資方的立場去思考問題"},{"start":494,"end":508.521,"text":"還有台灣的稽查力度是南韓的十分之一啦我想這些都是問題那部長這不是統計的問題是國家施政的一個差距啦我認為是希望部長在這邊呢能夠承諾來改善這個狀況"},{"start":510.426,"end":536.314,"text":"跟委員說沒有其實我還是有說數字上面的比較是一回事但的確我們認為在工時的問題上面其實有一些我們還可以在更多努力的地方比方說我們其實也很希望接下來擴大其實對於可能很多的工會或者是簽這個團體協約怎麼樣簽一個比較高於法令然後能夠對於勞工的工時更有保障或更多考慮"},{"start":537.214,"end":552.244,"text":"的這部分我們希望這多演繹 部長我再問最後就是說勞團呼籲我們這個包含特休這個地震要更快上限要提高另外改善勞動條件提高勞參率就是缺工的問題要解決啦才不會這個因"},{"start":553.184,"end":572.728,"text":"因為缺能而不能放假部長會朝這三個方向來進行嗎第一個關於缺工的問題我想我們很認真的研議那特休呢近期其實也因為在考慮到缺工部分產業缺工所以我們也在整體的跨國勞動力政策上面做出了一些精進跟調整那第二個我覺得在關於特休我覺得我們可以整體性的來思考"},{"start":573.808,"end":599.367,"text":"所以你們是支持的嗎我們可以整體性的來思考這個事情你支持嗎 你先講嘛我想從勞工的 從勞工的角度當然都會希望特休提高嘛你是部長 你是但是當然我說就政策來說的話我們願意來做整體性的來思考這部分有沒有空間 有多少空間我們 對好 那部長多久可以回答我三個月好不好好 謝謝部長"},{"start":605.077,"end":605.181,"text":"我看"}]}},{"id":"165511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165511","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abd55089eef65e173ac344f506729c478c80df8a4d5e0e61e371115e0c3c9f18cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:07:08 - 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大家辛苦了這一週胸油會成為立法院非常hard issue大家做足準備該辯護就辯護 該澄清就澄清當然有不法就要徹查 下一頁"},{"start":37.546,"end":55.306,"text":"中油三接的爭議在我目前看來爆料的內容真相還未明他需要去徹查不管是司法調查或是行政調查但是對於一個國家重要的能源重大建設卻因為這些政治的操作卻"},{"start":57.007,"end":83.512,"text":"為盟其利 先受其害了中油是國家重要的能源建設但是如果這件事情我們沒有處理好說明不夠完整然後淪為這種爆料或是報復的行為被貼上了負面的標籤我覺得對於國家重要的能源建設真的都是賠了夫人又折兵"},{"start":84.528,"end":98.137,"text":"所以說 在 好 調查局長在這在您看來 目前為止的資訊中游的三接的這個海事的工程是弊案嗎報告委員 現在目前在調查中"},{"start":99.221,"end":124.474,"text":"所以 爭委未定嘛 是不是弊案 不知道所以我們不要貼上了負面的標籤我再一次說 好 經濟部次長喔中油的三接案 還曾經歷經過環保跟能源之間的拔河 歷經了公投最後這個重要的建設 我們還是上路了在風雨當中 在爭議當中我們要讓爭議化解到最小"},{"start":125.6,"end":148.032,"text":"那它對於國家重要的能源發展有哪些正向的意義因為北部的供電其實對這個三接工程事實上是非常非常重要的那當然我們也不希望說因為這個事件影響到整個三接的這個工程的進行所以我們既然有新的事項我們經濟部也重啟了調查"},{"start":149.053,"end":167.126,"text":"那當然檢調這邊也積極在偵辦那我想到最後一定會有一個水漏石出我希望在真相水漏石出之前我還是希望社會看待中油的三接案不要就被冠上了一個被汙名化所謂弊案的標籤"},{"start":168.587,"end":193.358,"text":"三接案對於國家的能源轉型對於我們要跟上世界接軌推動淨零排碳乃至於北台灣的供電的穩定因為不能夠再失衡了對不對 當初三接我們就是好不容易在我們的核能也好燃煤要退場我們當然在北部的燃氣它要有充足的氣源嘛"},{"start":194.418,"end":222.074,"text":"所以這個天然氣的接收站站在國家重大的能源建設的角度上它攸關能源轉型攸關淨零排碳國際的競爭力更是穩定北台灣的擁電我還是希望經濟部也好中油也好在真相未明之前我們要強化定調這個論述我不樂見國家任何的重大建設先被貼上了汙名化的標籤切莫以"},{"start":222.774,"end":246.484,"text":"弊案來看待到目前為止這對國家重大建設並不公平下一頁我請陳局長啊我看到你們的報告裡頭有說調查局受理的貪瀆檢舉從2021到202511月有關國營事業就包括中油台電台水這些的整體的數字我整理在這裡"},{"start":249.026,"end":267.379,"text":"總體的受理的案件415案移送案件118案所以移送的比例是28%而移送案件當中的確實經司法審判目前起訴的案件因為我不能弄判決的案件因為很多還在審判中起訴的案件是61案換言之"},{"start":269.54,"end":289.674,"text":"不起訴的比例是86%起訴的案件是14%這告訴我們什麼有很多是到最後調查是查無那個不法的事證是所以說這個數字會說話有14%的起訴任何一個案子都不能縱容"},{"start":290.535,"end":311.708,"text":"不管一億的案件一百億的案件任何的弊案就是不能縱容即便他只是一案我們還是要撻伐還是要依法就辦但是以你們調查局受理的所有的移送比例受理案件到移送包括這當中有一個gap是因為可能他監察就是檢舉不實或者是證據不足或者是烏龍爆料"},{"start":314.91,"end":329.462,"text":"然後真正的進入了起訴司法審判裡頭被起訴是14%不起訴是86%換言之檢舉的不實是極有可能發生甚至是多數就你們這個資料是這樣嗎"},{"start":330.963,"end":351.692,"text":"這是有可能的但是我們調查局的立場就是說對於任何一件檢舉的案件我們不設前提嘛對我們一定盡最大的盡調查之能就是司法案件所謂案子有沒有弊核心就在證據而不是政治或是其他力量的干擾不會不會有任何政治的考量我們請這個廉政署的副署長"},{"start":353.464,"end":378.961,"text":"副市長你好夏業我也整理了你們的資料廉政署你們負責這個行政調查方面的這些數字確定判決你們從一樣2009到2025年受理的貪瀆廉政調查的案件呢移送的起訴的還起訴的到最終確定判決是358件很高我還是覺得很高雖然他比例是6.8%"},{"start":381.844,"end":403.519,"text":"確定判決的不法案件6.8%在你們移送司法調查之後那多數啦還是可能像剛剛調查局的數字差不多如果證據不實或者是檢舉是惡意的當然我們要還當事人清白那您簡單跟我講一下你們這個數字你們的解讀是什麼"},{"start":405.568,"end":426.983,"text":"報告委員 在本署的偵辦案件裡面如果是明顯施政不足 那就會落在簽結的這個領域您大聲一點如果是在本署調查的過程明顯的施政不足那在廉政署那邊就會做簽結那移送之後如果是檢察官認定沒有到起訴門檻就會落入不起訴"},{"start":427.697,"end":449.128,"text":"所以我们自行签结的是四成但是多数我们也是认为有疑虑我们就移送对不对那移送司法去调查之后呢确定判决是6.8%所以要提醒我们在看待所有的贪读检举案我们还是让真相查清楚再下定论好下一页"},{"start":450.508,"end":457.133,"text":"非常遺憾喔這個在野黨的委員用記者會的方式他們認為接受了吹哨者的陳情或是爆料用開記者會的方式就讓中油的三接案被貼上了弊案的標籤我再一次說沒有查清楚之前不宜這樣汙名化國家重要的能源建設下一頁"},{"start":476.922,"end":486.721,"text":"現在呢我看了你們全部的報告查核過三次對不對經濟部查核兩次嘛工程會查核過一次有沒有異狀"},{"start":489.917,"end":508.269,"text":"來誰代表跟我們報告我們從這個採購法的相關的程序內容來看的話並沒有任何的依照好經濟部也是嘛工程會也是嗎剛剛經濟部工程會也是嗎副主委那我請方董事長目前三接的進度多少"},{"start":511.192,"end":529.827,"text":"實際進度我不記得 但是有一個很重要的就是三接對外來講 已經開始供應天然氣了從今年的六月 已經好 方董事長 我是不太同意你的回答實際的進度就寫在你的報告裡面 75%而且超前了多少"},{"start":530.868,"end":544.353,"text":"超前了16.52%所以如果不是今天這個個案被爆料該查就查他實質的剛剛經濟部查核了兩次工程會查核了一次你們實質的進度是達到75%甚至進度超前了16.52%"},{"start":550.311,"end":569.961,"text":"這是這個建設到目前的狀況所以說好現在進行中因為被舉發了就該查不管是從拱明星部長不管是你們廉政署不管是法務部不管是中郵自己也重啟調查不管是工程會兩個月也專案"},{"start":571.955,"end":590.532,"text":"調查嗎如果我作為一個立法委員我要監督的是如果有人檢舉有人爆料不管他是惡意的是不是屬實我該監督的是如果所有的相關單位所有的相關機關構不查不辦不作為這才是我監督的重點"},{"start":591.849,"end":600.692,"text":"如果查了之後確實有弊案有不法那就該罰該救處的絕對不能縱容這也是我監督的重點或者是作為我們其他政策調整的參照這應當是一個負責任的國會議員該做的我說的是當一個案件如果被舉發了不查不辦不作為才是我該監督的"},{"start":616.551,"end":643.467,"text":"調查之後確定司法調查之後或者是行政調查之後認為有弊端的話我如果你們輕罰該嚴辦的不嚴辦那我當然也要監督但是除此之外所有的內容不應當是我在這裡任何一個立法委員在這裡帶風向未審先判政治力介入個案的這是我今天要說的重點"},{"start":644.656,"end":663.278,"text":"所以說呢 在下一頁非常遺憾喔 個案的政治公審又來了這一週 司法法治委員會就今天翁找偉排案 我尊重 我也在這裡履行我的問政的職責中遊三街的工程款爭議 今天要一次報告"},{"start":664.574,"end":684.907,"text":"那這一週在經濟委員會也針對中油三接案的公傳款的爭議再排一次會甚至國民黨團也在院會提了要求甚至我不能接受的是你要邀請行政院長來做任何專案報告我們都尊重但是對一個案子是非為民"},{"start":686.628,"end":713.768,"text":"還沒有定驗 沒有經過完整的查查 查辦卻以觀塘液化天然氣接收站也就是三階工程的弊案邀請行政院長來立法院備詢就以弊案來代之我認為這不是立法委員能夠做的你可以邀請行政院長來專案報告對於他的爭議 疑議 就像今天好 招委用爭議 好 很好"},{"start":714.608,"end":735.667,"text":"如果是未審先判政治的公審就以閉案來貼上了負面的標籤查查出來如果沒有閉案呢如果查查沒有不法呢我認為這個都要審慎所以我再說一次不要介入個案不要用政治來公審"},{"start":737.128,"end":763.11,"text":"交給廉政署調查局行政的查處以及相關司法單位的司法調查他們才是有專業的調查工具的國家司法人員再一次提醒我作為一個立法委員如果今天這個案子有人檢舉你們站在我對面的這些官員們不查不辦不作為才是我要監督的對象如果查了"},{"start":764.091,"end":792.178,"text":"沒有不法還人家清白可是對於中油被貼上的負面標籤這真的是為盟其利先受其害它是重要的國家能源轉型的建設那如果真的查了有弊案你們還輕放不罰那更是我要強力去批判你們的但那個時間點不是現在我要請所有的從政同仁我們立法院的委員們不分黨派"},{"start":793.098,"end":810.417,"text":"曾幾何時你們最痛恨的淨檢你們不都說淨檢亂說話嗎今天拿週刊的爆料翻好像正義又轉了彎我認為我們不要兩套標準該查的在程序中我們都尊重司法的調查政治人少說話"},{"start":811.838,"end":831.766,"text":"要說就說基於何允的監督的權限而不是對於任何個案調查中就先奏下了定論這是我今天我表達的立場但是方董事長一個案子一億有任何弊案我們一樣絕對不縱容更何況這是253億的被檢舉的案件該釐清就釐清"},{"start":838.752,"end":843.565,"text":"我希望大家坦然面對司法的偵辦好 辛苦大家 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董事長 市長我們今天主要專案報告是在於我們中油的三接的這個工程那當然因為之前是先提出來二期工程它的整個的金額一直腐爛的報價那今天又有一個新的爆料就是在一期工程的部分"},{"start":50.999,"end":75.795,"text":"也有就是跟不合就是一般來講就是先做這個價格標先讓廠商來報價我想請問一下董事長一期的部分得標的公司是什麼公司黃昌泛亞的一個共同團隊來投標 一期的部分第一期那第二期呢"},{"start":76.397,"end":90.079,"text":"第二期也是黃昌、范雅這個團隊的都是兩家同樣的公司那在這個黃昌的部分黃昌部分是他的得標金額是多少他一期的得標金額"},{"start":92.922,"end":101.068,"text":"我們先講第二 外推這個部分它得標是235億253億 這應該講二期二期total 253億那麼第一期得標金額為220億第一期220億嗎最佳這個我說明一下就是建港微堤造地工程它的合約決標金額是222億"},{"start":121.926,"end":130.646,"text":"那後來因為外推方案的關係所以把原來的這個工程裡面沒有重疊的部分就把它切出去了"},{"start":131.491,"end":149.763,"text":"只有在原先不變的部分 留在原合約不是 你這樣有點複雜我現在齁 我們先把它切開來看二期 二期就是我們今天專案報告的二期的工程總價最後確定的是253億嘛253億 對不對好 那一期呢 我講的是一期166億 這樣不就不會搞混了"},{"start":158.871,"end":186.203,"text":"一期166億但這個還是有點奇怪因為根據黃昌海市他自己的公告他自己的公告一期是172億172億有沒有修正對那個一期是166但是呢工程驗收結束以後做最終的結算是172億追加了"},{"start":189.504,"end":204.057,"text":"對不起講錯了講反了契約是172最後的結算是166是結算166億然後到了第二期變成253億我想起我一期二期的工程有什麼不一樣"},{"start":205.68,"end":224.693,"text":"二期的工程它的防波堤的長度比較長這第一點 第二點呢長多少呢大概接近一千米接近一千米有長到 有比較 我說比較長到一千米嗎700公尺700公尺嘛長度多了700公尺700公尺變一千米對不起"},{"start":227.262,"end":243.341,"text":"那個水深的部分也不一樣一期的部分水深是在-15米以內我看到的資料如果按照沉箱的部分沉箱的部分二期是144座沉箱一期是138座沉箱"},{"start":247.486,"end":251.71,"text":"那當然這個兩期的工程時間距離有點長那有可能是受到比如成本啦或者物料什麼等等之類的無論如何一期跟二期的工程我其實看不出來兩個工程它的難度跟它的規模有差多少但是呢金額大幅的增加"},{"start":271.408,"end":297.827,"text":"那這個部分而且在二期的部分黃昌的比例由原來的47%增加到73%所以他得標的金額將近200億186.83億那這個當然現在檢調要去調查這裡面所謂的相關的爆料那另外我想請教董事長你們已經完成你們的行政調查了嗎"},{"start":298.975,"end":310.753,"text":"第一次的行政調查在去年年底就完成了那現在呢就根據新市政我們已經重啟了調查什麼時候開始重啟"},{"start":312.862,"end":331.689,"text":"上週在記者會之後我們就開始了上週開始重啟所以還在進行中進行中那你們在去年年底的行政調查的內容是跟現在的爆料的內容是一致的嗎也就是這邊有服邊然後工程款爆增的狀況"},{"start":332.708,"end":355.163,"text":"基本上主題就是這個項目那所以上次行政調查已經結案已經結案所以所以董事長還有部長如果這一次檢調的調查因為檢調現在在調查中如果出現如果確實裡面有所弊端的話那麼"},{"start":356.184,"end":362.288,"text":"你們行政調查要不要負責任啊因為你們行政調查結案啦所以才會有這個陸陸續續繼續來爆料啊是不是"},{"start":365.078,"end":391.261,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告就是說現在有新施政出來了所以我們調查的當時有這個錄音嗎當時沒有當時沒有這個錄音所以你們現在就是在行政調查裡面主要針對這個錄音也就是有說什麼中油什麼都不缺啦就是而且錢最多啦就不缺錢所以這個部分你們現在是第二次第二次行政調查的重點"},{"start":393.362,"end":412.715,"text":"預計行政調查什麼時候會完成我是希望我們政風署在一個月內把它完成一個月內 如果是說以11月去上個星期的話所以應該在12月初就可以完成整個的行政調查是不是在12月中好了"},{"start":413.86,"end":419.666,"text":"我一講你就一個月你要不要又把他拖到12月中好吧就是12月中那麼你們就應該完成你們的行政調查給外界一個交代我要講的是為什麼特別提到黃昌黃昌這家公司在我如果看這個政府採購網"},{"start":435.442,"end":446.072,"text":"他在2023年2024年大概政府得標案件大概是100億到200億元之間100億到200億元之間2025大爆發超過400億"},{"start":452.538,"end":476.864,"text":"超過400億那當然他其實這個黃昌他的這個得標跟政府得標台北市卻是捷運工程因為他之前那個有包捷運工程然後呢有一些國道工程也有但是這445億裡面貢獻最大的就是中油就是中油而且他過去跟中油沒有什麼往來"},{"start":478.018,"end":497.884,"text":"它過去跟中油沒有什麼往來它大部分都是地方的交通工程為主或者都交通工程為主所以過去它的時機其實它也跟中油的工程是沒有這麼相關更不要說這些提防什麼外推工程"},{"start":498.544,"end":522.312,"text":"那但是呢 一期給他 二期給他一期得標的比例47%到了二期的比例超過70%確實讓大家覺得說他整個在中油的工程裡面是大爆發的所以我想請教一下董事長這家黃昌你之前認識嗎在所謂一期得標以前不認識"},{"start":527.352,"end":552.187,"text":"一起得標之前不認識那得標之後就認識了當然因為有這個契約執行關係嘛對於工程的執行當然就會每個月都要開會就會接觸到就會接觸所以你們個人是很很信任黃昌在這個三接這個重大的這個工程一期二期你們很信任他的品質"},{"start":554.093,"end":566.081,"text":"我不能講說很信任 就是有工程的合約嘛那麼雙方依照合約上面所規定的權利義務來去共同執行讓這個工程做得更好 更完善"},{"start":567.059,"end":588.149,"text":"因為我要特別提到就是說因為黃昌過去他沒有跟你們中有相關的往來也沒有這些相關的時機比如說你今天如果是一些交通工程交給他我覺得我更認為是比較合理因為他過去他做了很多的不管捷運啊或者是國道的一些交通的工程"},{"start":588.849,"end":617.833,"text":"那這個工程金額這麼龐大然後現在又出現了就出現了這些相關的這些質疑那黃昌這家公司以前被人家戲稱為叫什麼黃家公司為什麼黃家那他以前是主要是跟陳水扁前總統關係非常密切因為大家都知道陳水扁總統他入獄的時候正好黃昌的老闆是跟他住同一個牢房"},{"start":618.493,"end":636.569,"text":"住同一個牢房 所以過去 過去黃長他叫黃長 但是很多人都叫他黃家 黃家營造那但是在陳水扁這個總統他卸任之後其實他跟這個企業界跟政府"},{"start":637.458,"end":647.147,"text":"就沒有那麼很明確的往來但是現在又突然起了這樣子的一個我們中油的爭議中油累計虧損現在是多少累計虧損接近800億"},{"start":653.792,"end":668.169,"text":"累積虧損才800億嗎目前這個財務報表累積虧損大概800億但是因為我們之前有一些保留所以把以前累積的虧損就把它打掉了那目前帳面上大概是累積虧損800億也有800億 到現在為止"},{"start":671.633,"end":700.271,"text":"所以就說我們今天過去講到中郵的弊案其實真的非常多啦來我們看一下2022年2022年呢那個時候呢就是在其實他本來是一案變成就像牽粽子一樣他辦一個案子又一簽再簽就簽了好幾個當時2022年中郵曾經陷入多起的弊案之中"},{"start":701.411,"end":727.623,"text":"而且後來呢真的都有被起訴有被起訴有收回當時當時的中油董事長李順清他有講到因為那時候一而再再而三的發生這些相關的貪瀆弊案他說啊他說他很痛心這些貪污弊案讓他痛心要貪污賺大錢不要來中油"},{"start":728.203,"end":735.529,"text":"我覺得這句話要再次的送給我們現在的中油我覺得同樣董事長也要有這樣的魄力跟這樣的認知如果你想要賺錢不要來中油因為中油是一個獨家的國營事業那確實它每一起標案都非常龐大"},{"start":749.941,"end":762.17,"text":"那這些弊案其實如果我不曉得檢調要花多少時間才能夠給我們一個答案那您剛剛講說你的行政調查在12月中可以提出來那我也會希望董事長能夠本於真的要查好弊案如果真的有貪瀆就把它查出來不要互短可不可以"},{"start":775.519,"end":804.659,"text":"可以 一定是這樣做對 不要護短因為如果真的有這個事情的話一定要把他抓出來因為如果說這樣的弊案的陰影揮之不去然後其實馬上因為尤其這些都有一些牽涉到有沒有政商關係他不是單純的單純的貪圖弊案喔他還牽涉到有沒有其他政治的這個關係的話其實對中友絕對是傷害 好不好是 好好 謝謝"},{"start":807.331,"end":809.443,"text":"好 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10:15:47","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T10:07:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T10:15:47+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.00096875,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.699718750000002,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.48534375,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.23471875000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.16659375,"end":107.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.59221875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.60909375,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.14034375000001,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.76034375,"end":181.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.37784375,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.10346875000002,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":191.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.32159375,"end":212.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.23409375,"end":255.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.95721875,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.37471875,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.06596875,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.96846875,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.72346875,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.97596875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.86034375,"end":313.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.02034375,"end":319.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.21721875000003,"end":335.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":339.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.51784375,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.34471875,"end":347.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":352.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.92096875000004,"end":356.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.41409375,"end":418.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.46346875,"end":433.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.68471875,"end":439.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.18159375000005,"end":447.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.68346875000003,"end":441.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.70034375,"end":441.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.95346875,"end":442.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.02096875,"end":443.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.52284375000005,"end":444.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.29909375000005,"end":444.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.19721875000005,"end":470.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.79909375000005,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.41846875000005,"end":464.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.13471875000005,"end":478.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.82534375000006,"end":490.62096875000003},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針對我們原住民的問題提出三個問題就是說我們我想問的態度就是目前我們想要修正原住民老年給付到修正到55歲我想說聽聽你的意見"},{"start":30.46,"end":55.786,"text":"跟文說明那其實對於這個原住民族下降到55歲的這個議題其實當然我們現在也是在評估跟研議中那我想細節我請文保險司來那我還是希望你心裡面有一些那個就是至少有一些Hint因為我們原住民大概都是在煮鷹架、搬水泥、綁乾淨、丁綁抹這些我們的原住民工人"},{"start":56.366,"end":78.011,"text":"我覺得說你繼續想像他們在65歲的時候還是還可以做到這方面的一個勞力的工作嗎因為大部分文明罪名的比例是46%是從事這些這種不需要重工業或者是這些勞力耗損的一些職業所以你們要把這些這樣事實考量進去所以我們是希望說能夠修到55歲"},{"start":81.437,"end":106.728,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟原民會跟相關社會保險主管機關都有討論過這個議題我們認為原民的相關的保障包括就業促進或者是社福的津貼所以又因為國際趨勢目前就是說目前的態度上面還是沒有辦法修正到55歲因為我們本來就有減額年金他本來就可以提前領"},{"start":107.788,"end":136.655,"text":"因为那是一次退没有减额年金是可以没有关系我们还是希望说不要是齐头式的平等希望能够实际的看看他们的劳动的劣势来考量到55岁的这个一个基准点第二个问题就是我希望当然我们大家都提到劳保最终支付责任这个部分不过很像大部分都没有提到劳保财务敏感度的评估我们就针对66跟69条这个修正的部分那我希望说"},{"start":137.395,"end":165.774,"text":"能夠看看能不能就行業別年資斷裂還有投保急劇的這個財務試算或者說有沒有族群別勞動壽命或是私人風險這種財務敏感度的分析因為如果你不是做這樣的話你沒有辦法去看看哪些人是比較容易年資中斷哪些人的投保急劇長期偏低哪些人真的是活不到65歲所以如果你沒有做這些敏感度分析的話你就看不到這些差異"},{"start":166.594,"end":191.442,"text":"所以我希望因為你們勞保或者是健保這邊都有詳細的這些各年齡別或者是投保薪資這些資料如果你們真正願意做的話應該是可以把這些我們所謂勞保財務敏感度的評估可以把它做出來跟委員報告各個就是我國人口的平均移民或原民的平均移民其實我們內政部都有在做"},{"start":192.692,"end":212.167,"text":"對那有關勞保的有工作就參加勞保沒有工作就參加國保所以在勞保的這一塊大家都是一體來適用那我們也有在勞保條例58條有規定如果工作是堅強體力的工作的話他也可以提早來領老年給付"},{"start":212.267,"end":231.639,"text":"沒有錯可是我的意思說希望能夠勞動部這邊的可以啟動做這些我們剛才講的勞務財務敏感度的評估也就是說你從你的年資斷裂投保集聚這些來做財務的試算那希望因為目前沒有看到這些資料所以我希望勞動部可以做一個那個"},{"start":233.32,"end":253.826,"text":"啟動了這樣一個機制讓這些長期在比如說容易年資斷裂或者是說他沒有辦法我們就像我們的平均沒有辦法到達65歲了沒有辦法真正請領到這些他所付出的所以這些部分因為你都沒有去做過試算所以我們就看不到所謂的資料"},{"start":257.714,"end":271.714,"text":"其實原民在55歲到64歲中間他們也可以領原住民給付那連結到65歲他可以領所以這個部分可能我們再找時間到報告室討論因為我覺得我們遇到很多實際的案例"},{"start":272.875,"end":296.634,"text":"最後一點點時間我想說之前我有提到就是單身的權益還有就是彝族年金這個部分因為我們目前看到的就是如果你是單身過世後彝族年金形同被充公對勞工顯然是不公平所以我想說能不能按照公教保險法落實勞工的自主意志讓他們可以指定受益人我想知道我們部長的態度"},{"start":298.676,"end":313.384,"text":"跟我們說明其實因為老保的這個性質尤其是遺屬年輕的性質其實不太一樣我想請這個因為時間的關係我想說公交保險這裡面其實有做視線那我請我們市長來說明一下因為這個條文跟視線之間的關係"},{"start":320.308,"end":339.435,"text":"是根本報告就是老保的起伏他是一個保險起伏他跟一般私人的財產不一樣那跟到大法官會議釋字第549號解釋就認為移屬津貼他的性質是所得的替代所以他是要保障移屬生活無憂所以他必須是受被保險"},{"start":341.396,"end":356.359,"text":"生前來撫養為條件他不是遺產 既然不是遺產他就不可以生前來指定那所以有關的受益人的這個順序啦或者是條件標準等等保險就是勞保條例裡面都有一個範定的"},{"start":356.879,"end":383.389,"text":"我們辦公室可能會提出一個修正的法案因為我想還是提醒部長我們原住民目前未婚比例大概39.88也就是四成沒有結婚所以可是未婚並不代表他們沒有家庭部落為例我們原住民的家庭跟一般漢人家庭不太一樣我們大概都是兄弟姐妹表兄弟姐妹這些都是關係是非常緊密的會看到姐姐公養弟弟子女照顧阿姨然後母舅的關係是反而在這個家庭裡面的"},{"start":383.849,"end":404.361,"text":"那个关系是他的权利是很大的所以我们现在所看到是照顾付出结果现行的保险制度里面被视为不存在所以只是用一个就是说比不上制度认定的受抚养这三个字所以我觉得最不合理就是劳工一辈子缴的保费他应该领的这些年金呢竟然"},{"start":404.881,"end":424.782,"text":"不是他真正照顧他的人領走而是被國家 被以制度缺口這樣的方式收回去你不覺得這樣對真正在照顧的人的公平性或者說那個保障完全都沒有嗎跟委員說明因為其實勞保本身就是社會保險社會保險裡面本來就會有世代互助的性質"},{"start":426.323,"end":446.828,"text":"那剛剛其實市長我們遇到一個在這個議題上面最大的一個癥結點是在於因為大法官的549號的解釋在大法官的解釋裡面其實已經說明的很清楚他其實是所得的替代他並不是遺產那因為是所得的替代所以他就不是像遺產可以"},{"start":448.268,"end":477.968,"text":"任意的來指定就有點像是變成好像是這個被保險的遺產他可以指定那如果他身後他要指定給誰就不是這個性質所以主要的問題是發生在這個市縣的這個這個市制549號這裡面所以這並不是我們想怎麼修或者是我們今天想要怎麼解釋就能解釋我是希望說因為勞保是強制性的社會保險他保障應該比公教更強而不是更弱我們從這個方向來努力好不好"},{"start":479.509,"end":505.099,"text":"我們怎麼修端還是不能夠去違逆憲法法庭他的相關的解釋我們再提修正看看這是比較大的問題是在這個地方那能不能看看我們再提出修法然後看看能不能獲得多數委員的同意或是支持再請部長給指教但是重點是憲法法庭的解釋啊這個是實質的解釋行政部門我不可能去違逆事件的結果啊"}]}},{"id":"165499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab4b825b41d3523a77c344f506729c478c5fbc24375b25c4749dbd41b275635fa55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:45:10 - 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謝謝先請中油董事長委員長我先問你三個非常簡單的問題來請你告訴我第一個什麼時候告金週刊"},{"start":42.32,"end":65.001,"text":"目前呢 我們公司內部再啟動行政調查我再問你一次 什麼時候告金週刊目前沒有 我覺得現在目前沒有啊 你的報告怎麼寫的你說這些所有都不實報導不是嗎我們講的意思就是說現在重點董事長 我問你是不是不實報導金週刊的報導是不是不實報導我們要啟動內部的行政調查你看你迴避心虛嘛"},{"start":66.448,"end":90.663,"text":"我直接講結論啦報告不用寫啦還想那麼正正有詞不死你就要告 報告是不是這樣寫第一個就是說我問你嘛 你有沒有看報告不會報告出來你都沒看吧我講的意思就是說行政調查同時我們要配合檢調單位的一個調查結果董事長你光第一個問題都答不出來連報告自己怎麼寫都不知道"},{"start":91.773,"end":119.656,"text":"裡面就說只要是不實報道 你們會提出告訴是 只要是不實對啊 那請問你現在進週刊所以你沒有要告嘛那進週刊叫報道就屬實啦我告訴你 我直接告訴你你要告的還不只是進週刊報道你的三接二期的弊案今天 進週刊又加碼爆料你的三接一期都有問題兩單一起告啦 好不好"},{"start":121.516,"end":135.417,"text":"不 答不出來 任5秒問第二個問題 來錄音檔內的業者是不是東批公司是不是 告訴我目前不確定不確定啦來 部長 是不是東批公司"},{"start":137.6,"end":154.39,"text":"這部分已經剪掉臉我知道啦 謝謝部長休息休息 我知道你說個案不討論啦來 教育局局長是不是東批公司這個我就不方便說明我知道你一定答案一模一樣啦我告訴你們來 董事長上來我再問你是不是東批公司"},{"start":155.134,"end":172.248,"text":"目前不確定 不確定啊 非常好啊在我們資料上不確定我來去當 那個部長來去當調查局局長好了啦我幫你們來推估是不是東坯公司 來 我想請教一下最後齁 尋價結果齁 來 董事長黃昌說多少錢269億洪華說多少錢230餘億239億東坯說多少錢"},{"start":187.163,"end":205.622,"text":"256億來來來周刊的報導來告訴你是不是東批公司啊周刊報導說外界說這個工程94億就能做業者錄音帶業者說他提122億的價格你們中油高層豪氣說中油什麼都沒有欠啦錢最多啦"},{"start":206.892,"end":230.126,"text":"不缺錢啦然後等於是叫他繼續往上加他加了多少150億還繼續被中油罵然後呢加到220億再度被中油高層大罵中油高層罵我你這做頭家不會做頭路你都聽不懂你做什麼頭路囂張啊這位中油高層非常囂張喔好來"},{"start":231.944,"end":255.1,"text":"這個營造商抱怨啦 90幾億可以做第一次抱120億 他說太低 150億又被罵叫他抱高一點 最後他報價 報到多少 周刊報導報多少 請問 報多少報給你們周郵多少 告訴我 周刊報導 有沒有看不會沒看吧我看了 我看了 名譽這麼重要 有看 來周刊報導 他報多少給你們"},{"start":256.042,"end":276.232,"text":"報告委員齁 從這個周刊 答不出來你第二次心虛 你告訴我 你給我數字從周刊的報導裡面 你給我數字啊從周刊的報導裡面 你不要迴避問題喔我問你這麼簡單的數字 最後報給你多少錢我們沒有接到他的報告 我們接到的是我講是周刊的報導 周刊報導這個廠商報給你多少錢"},{"start":279.386,"end":285.71,"text":"告訴我答對了來 請問你剛剛講東坯公司報多少錢哈哈哈哈我去當部長 我去當局長一模一樣啦是不是東坯公司 我再問你來 請問 來 請教部長這麼清楚啊東坯公司要不要約談一下"},{"start":306.426,"end":325.92,"text":"各愛不評論這部分我想那個辦案單位有他的偵查的一個規劃來請局長依常理啦不要跟著部長好不好來局長對你喜許甚深依常理我幫你推估到這種程度了直指東批公司"},{"start":327.325,"end":342.694,"text":"總要去約談一下吧 了解一下吧謝謝委員的推估 我們會參照委員的意見好 謝謝你 謝謝局長部長看一下 局長起碼有誠意多了來 我第三個問題要問你來 第三個問題問你我想請教一下我們的董事長請問這中油高層 這位總經理說中油不缺錢報告一點的總經理是不是你"},{"start":354.978,"end":377.625,"text":"報告委員 從這個週刊的報導 所謂總經理上面並沒有講中游非常好 你是指世襲嗎我不知道不是台灣世襲就是中游啊這個部分我不知道來來來 請教你 為什麼直接問你啊我給你呈現一個機會啦三接二期是哪一年招標的哪一年決標的都是在111年對啊 2022年6月29日招標8月2號決標嘛 對不對來 請問"},{"start":383.885,"end":394.26,"text":"董事長你那個時候在中油的職位是什麼我是111年4月12號升任總經理所以在4月12號之前我是副總經理"},{"start":395.472,"end":418.834,"text":"你說111年之前 升任總經理4月12號升任總經理你就是總經理啊 不是嗎這個事情應該是發生在請購預算核定階段前總經理啊 謝謝你 非常好非常好 總理長我真的佩服你啊原來是前總經理啊來來來 沒關係來 那個部長"},{"start":424.312,"end":450.709,"text":"人家都把總經理都講出來 而且他直接跟你講是前總經理雖然招標的時候 絕標的時候 他是總經理可是他說前面的階段 他不是總經理 那個前總經理的事情前總經理要不要約談一下來 個案對尊重檢方這個我想有辦案單位來做一個好 非常謝謝 那我再提示一下提示一下我們局長啦我給你第二個名字了 對你多好對 給你第二個人"},{"start":452.222,"end":477.728,"text":"我不直接問你回答 因為你回答可能也要跟部長一樣啦偵查不公開啦 我們都會參考 謝謝謝謝你參考啦兩個單位給你啦來 我再請教你第三個我想請問第三個單位要跟你講我看你們報告一直在講什麼台灣四溪嘛 對不對來 董事長請台灣四溪喔"},{"start":479.198,"end":508.67,"text":"那我跟局長直接說啊所有的報價的過程當中台灣世襲證據一定在台灣世襲嘛台灣世襲我們現在董事長是誰鄭裕鵬啊鄭裕鵬7月才接我先幫他講啦這事跟他沒關係啦可是他是董事長就我所知崔少哲也有去跟台灣世襲那邊所以請鄭裕鵬也來好好了解一下"},{"start":509.656,"end":533.434,"text":"我給你 今天給你三個名字我最後回頭說啊 我要跟大家講我不認為週刊報導是空穴來風啊你看它週刊報導多好啊256億寫的清淨數今天如果說你給三家公司尋價結果沒有256億這個數字喔 那我覺得週刊胡說八道嘛你給的三家公司有一家就有256億就這麼清楚"},{"start":537.978,"end":565.478,"text":"那今天說真的 那麼清楚啦檢方趕快要辦一辦那我再來請教我們的董事長剛剛我們的黃國昌委員說中油實在是檢察官說的中油公司貪腐結構根深蒂固你反對嘛 你不認同嘛 對不對不認同 來來來第一點 我想請教一下部長"},{"start":567.176,"end":567.756,"text":"請教部長我們偵辦從110年到114年國營事業貪賭案移送最多的公司 國營事業是哪一家"},{"start":588.28,"end":617.239,"text":"這部分我沒有資料那局長了解啦 局長給的資料吧哪一家移送最多中油比較多中油比較多 謝謝局長謝謝 謝謝委員董事長你中油當然了不起啊 第一名啊那麼多國營事業公司你被移送第一名啊你驕傲啊黃國昌剛剛還是引用檢方的說法你不認同啊來 沒關係 你不認同來 我再問你一個數字"},{"start":618.973,"end":646.65,"text":"今天我要把一句話念給你聽 離譜到什麼程度到現在還不敢跟我講 你到底要告不告中油什麼都不欠 錢最多 都不欠錢周刊報導啊中油欠不欠錢中油來講目前負債比很高你也知道啊 你也知道啊過去五年啊 賠了三千億"},{"start":648.787,"end":663.496,"text":"錢最多 錢賠最多啦為什麼會賠那麼多報告如果屬實三兆你都賠不完隨便一個工程一家一百五十億還去罵廠商報價報太低勒來給你反駁啊"},{"start":673.786,"end":701.201,"text":"那麼過去三年中油公司負債比從60%提高到93%最最主要的原因在這過去三年裡面中油公司承擔了在國內物價的一個好慮謝謝你的回答啦我告訴你最最主要原因承擔物價啦最最重要原因就是福報工程價格週刊報導的承擔物價這是國家政策我不怪你"},{"start":703.151,"end":731.385,"text":"可是今天嚴重到這種程度結果到現在為止你還是不敢講告不告周刊我告訴你就心虛周刊報的就是真的我相信周刊我真是相信金周刊啊對啊你也相信啊所以你不敢告啊他還不只告你不只講中三階二期啊他今天爆料三階一期也有問題啊中友還在說沒有貪腐沒有貪腐結構沒有根深蒂固"},{"start":732.608,"end":741.667,"text":"你拿什麼說服力告訴大家賠三千億怎麼賠就你偉大的忠友啊但今天我對總經理有一句話講得最好"},{"start":742.915,"end":763.782,"text":"我本來今天就要好好來質疑你我們要請你自行調查就你跟我講 你的答案我接受你說抱歉 絕標招標你是總經理但是所有事情完成是在絕標招標之前那不關你的事 那是前總經理所以爆料裡面的總經理不是你這個我聽起來有道理 我覺得有道理"},{"start":765.558,"end":776.891,"text":"可是今天中油根深蒂固的腐爛你董事長與有責焉啊那為什麼你直接告訴董事長既然是前總經理的事情不要包庇啊該辦就辦鐵腕斷然的去辦"},{"start":782.401,"end":806.31,"text":"可以嗎報告委員我們還是要就這個事情他是不是有這樣的一個情形要把他弄清楚謝謝 弄清楚啊你剛剛不是講弄清楚就是沒這個事啊我們現在重啟調查因為現在有新市政了嘛包括這個錄音黨所以你現在也不確定有沒有事啦很好啊你有自我懷疑精神我謝謝你啊今天中油自己都開始懷疑自己好事情好事情"},{"start":807.844,"end":811.915,"text":"請法務部聯政署調查局好好幫助你來驗證你的自我懷疑正不正確 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謝謝主席 我請部長還有勞保局 白局長還有基金應用局 蘇局長請部長 蘇委員好今天大家都在替你擔心切口是3.5兆這是怎麼算來的啊"},{"start":32.219,"end":34.369,"text":"你是小心要蓋然後把費率在那裡鋪陳"},{"start":36.536,"end":63.621,"text":"委員並不是 這個你講的是潛藏負債那這個勞保基金的這個潛藏的負債其實主要的原因它其實是因為這個因為勞保是確定給付制嘛那在這確定給付制裡面其實我們不一定之前都不一定是有逐年這個提滿它的這個費率那費率可能是逐年的調高"},{"start":64.301,"end":87.218,"text":"那所以其實在我們在看到各國的公共的基金的這個保險社會保險的公共基金裡面其實都會看到潛藏負債的狀況那這個潛藏負債的狀況並不會一次就實現所以我們看聽說勞保破產差不多聽了十幾年了每年都要破產每年都要過每年就過關頭過身就過我們現在勞保費率是12.5%嘛"},{"start":92.422,"end":98.824,"text":"那裡面一般的是11.5%嗎12.5%是包括舊寶舊寶1%所以11.5%那這個11.5%有沒有在漲價的空間我們到116年是12%到就慢慢的會加到100到12%那有沒有打算又再漲"},{"start":116.704,"end":130.463,"text":"因為最有效的方法就是漲費率嘛當然漲費率你要看勞工會不會動公司會不會動跟我的說明的確不管是漲費率或者是相對的做法因為它確實會"},{"start":132.466,"end":151.848,"text":"涉及到比方說勞工或者是企業的這個部分所以這當然我們有聽當然各界會有人提出這樣子的主張但是的確這會需要也需要一些社會的討論跟社會的共識因為這也涉及到勞工的權益所以近期內沒有發生要去匯率吧"},{"start":154.274,"end":179.697,"text":"我們目前有人就叫你召開國事會議有人召開什麼東東的然後看起來都是在在研議研議研議嘛對我覺得各種做法當然我們都必須要有一些評估跟思考啦可是每個做法重點是他後面在社會接受度的可行性上面也要一併的考慮所以在你任內應該這個規律不會往上調啦這個跟這個衛福部部長那種執行的感觀"},{"start":181.979,"end":204.535,"text":"我覺得我們現在當然就是包括基金投資這幾年的收益很好也包括像現在持續的爭取撥補也很謝謝行政院跟組總願意在我們現在很辛苦的國家財政之下還是願意給勞保一定額度今年大概明年一千二以上這樣子的撥補的金額"},{"start":206.756,"end":226.252,"text":"我想這部分要很謝謝竹總我們現在勞保基金差不多1.2兆嘛勞動基金差不多7.43兆差不多嘛那新制的勞退基金4.9兆然後就職的差不多1.03兆所以加起來是10幾兆啊1313嘛勞動基金就是包含新制 旧制"},{"start":236.764,"end":250.719,"text":"7.4兆這是兩個加起來所有的勞動基金加起來是7.4兆所以你現在13兆那你又缺口又13.5兆你現在在玩魔術跟我說13兆是13兆是潛藏負債他不是一定會實現的數字潛藏負債"},{"start":256.666,"end":277.825,"text":"學者專家的吃飽太遠都在想人想事常常聽到他們一天到晚恐嚇勒索我覺得我們傳統產業最近是蠻辛苦的台灣是靠單一的一個產業晶片產業占了GDP的將近六七十%這是很可怕的事情"},{"start":279.231,"end":294.753,"text":"萬一這個有一點散失的話整個是會像荷蘭這樣人家講荷蘭病荷蘭病荷蘭病就是在說什麼他們就是整個投到石化業因為整個北海挖到石油之後荷蘭可以分到錢就整個國家瘋狂都在搞石化業"},{"start":296.169,"end":315.808,"text":"搞一搞到最後就出事啦 油價一噴盤 抓竊了我們台灣現在都在課晶片那個看起來是很棒 稅金也一大部分從那邊來那我們傳統產業自己又現在美國關稅又搞一搞的話 是會很慘的所以 莫大夫 你要注意一點"},{"start":317.729,"end":332.686,"text":"這當然這是整體台灣的產業經濟的狀況也會有關於勞工的各種的條件跟待遇當然好所以短期內我們匯率就是明年到增加到12%之後你們沒有再往上調目前沒有啦"},{"start":335.362,"end":356.022,"text":"後年到12%這是依法的部分所以部長你這個整個掌管整個全國勞工的勞動前夜還有公司行要讓他們能夠做下去有的要保護有的要扶持有的要補助等等"},{"start":357.504,"end":379.22,"text":"所以有時候也不要一昧的去苛責公司行號這邊有時候我覺得你們都太嚴格了啦然後去就不管三七二十一大家看著人然後勞動部的人都要害怕死了大家都哀鴻騙人現在做構築是很難做的所以你們出去要和藹可親慈眉善目好不好"},{"start":385.364,"end":400.57,"text":"輔導為主不要亂搞 哪個亂砍沒有人受得了我們大概就是本於保障勞工的職責然後來做我今天提的那個第63條遺囑年金這一塊這個受撫養這一塊是太嚴格了"},{"start":405.78,"end":423.844,"text":"勞保局只是分辨形式而已嘛你這個受扶養就要什麼有陪伴相都要寫得這麼完善然後這個孫女或者是兄弟姊妹就有工藝的我去準備的我去寫的我就不用了所以全部都站不出來嘛所以這點 寶刁我刪掉你有意見嗎"},{"start":431.465,"end":450.903,"text":"委員重點重點是在這個條文上面之前那個4至549號的解釋文大法官4至549號解釋文其實有說因為這個這個勞保其實是所得替代的性質它並不是遺產所以因為在這所談"},{"start":452.785,"end":471.135,"text":"所得替代的性質之下所以他其實主要的會是針對要有這個撫養的條件這不是我們自己可以想怎麼定或者我今天行政部門想怎麼定因為這還是有一個大法官的視線在那個地方那從行政部門角度我們很難去違逆大法官視線的這個條文"},{"start":475.028,"end":497.296,"text":"這個下面要闡述一個盲點不符合條例的人然後父母親也不在了然後後來是由出商帳會那個人來請領死亡祈福這個也不合法怎麼到最後由這個出後世要搬嘛所以由出商帳會的人去領死亡祈福現在是這樣在補呢這夠不合法"},{"start":501.772,"end":527.269,"text":"就是說我們的死亡幾戶包括遺屬津貼跟傷案津貼傷案津貼是說如果就是五個月如果沒有遺屬或者是遺屬沒有符合條件的人我們提高傷案津貼為十個月這樣子就是五個月變成變十個月如果他只有兄弟姊妹沒有符合我們的條件的話那就會變十個月從五個月會變十個月"},{"start":530.649,"end":545.543,"text":"好 那個你再研究一下我們來討論一下 好不好那另外一個就是救護法就是15到17歲這個我們把他也納入救護法特定對象部長你有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":546.192,"end":563.934,"text":"跟穩說明 第一個因為主要是救護法24條的特定對象主要是針對就業弱勢但是因為青年其實青年的抑制性很高其實有很多青年他整體來說他在就業市場上是很有競爭力的"},{"start":564.955,"end":584.91,"text":"但也有一些在青年上面的確會是比較就在他的在找工作上會比較弱勢一點所以我們自己是擔心因為24條他其實我們有給很多相對應的就會津貼等等的聘僱的津貼但如果我是把一整個青年全部都放進去的時候變成是這些所有的青年"},{"start":585.891,"end":606.674,"text":"他找工作等等等他都可以來申請我們的這相關的津貼的時候他可能在現有的機會如果現有的求職機會他是一個大一塊大餅的話他可能會對其他的弱勢的比方說身心障礙比方說中高齡比方說其他的這個二度就業的婦女他可能會產生一些排擠的效果所以我們自己是認為說"},{"start":608.115,"end":623.966,"text":"青年也許現在大家看到他的失業率好像比平均來說高一些這確實但是主要如果仔細去看的話他主要比較高的原因是因為他並不是因為他客觀條件上面的弱勢他比較是他在他在職壓的選擇上面還沒有定或者他在"},{"start":624.747,"end":643.306,"text":"求學跟就業之間還在猶疑在做選擇比較不是他因為他的身份上面客觀上面有哪些部分比較弱勢我自己是覺得說如果要討論的話我覺得我們可以討論但不是那麼適合把整個青年一整一非常完整的青年單獨講15到17歲的青少年你會看得到嗎"},{"start":646.958,"end":665.367,"text":"15到17歲就剛剛其實林月琦委員有講到我自己是我們自己的看法是這樣你要把完整的一整個這麼異質的青年全部放進來你就會把很多其實他明明就有很多就業他在就業上面明明是有優勢的人一樣把它放24條那這就不太符合我們其實在24條當時設計的異質"},{"start":668.908,"end":682.085,"text":"所以我們應該是要就業弱勢才把它放進來所以我覺得如果當然委員討論裡面我們可以去比較框定說哪一群人真的在就業上面是比較弱勢的那我們把它範圍給框定清楚"},{"start":682.791,"end":703.071,"text":"大家也確定這些人的確在就業商因為他的某些條件他真的會比較辛苦他真的需要政府比較多的幫忙我覺得這部分我們可以來討論可是如果完整的一個青年的概念剛才說15到29歲這個裡面涵蓋的範圍就非常非常廣可能裡面有很多是在市場上面很具競爭力的尋職的對象都在裡面"},{"start":704.053,"end":729.185,"text":"好 那最後一個問題就是今年跟去年都是補一千兩百億嘛 中央政府那這個一千兩百億是怎麼算來的是看他的財富剩餘啦還是看他那個行政院長這大概也是主席主席主席大概總體評估我們的財政狀況但是說實話因為這真的是要看財政狀況啦但是"},{"start":730.746,"end":756.094,"text":"這邊還是要說是說我們都希望未來可以增加更多可是現在在中央政府的財政狀況在這個財務法的修訂之下他其實的餘裕 預度就會大幅的降低其實我們對這回有擔憂的要努力爭取啦我們也希望能夠把中央整個中央政府的財政的預度跟體制再做得更好才會有更多的餘裕可以來撥補勞保的財務好 謝謝"},{"start":766.521,"end":766.75,"text":"宣告"}]}},{"id":"165504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abe395b44b57dea474bfb6dfa65ed0fc1da41d86124363ebc20fcb2c0d88e7dc125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:16:04 - 10:28:02","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T10:16:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T10:28:02+08:00","duration":718,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.890968750000001,"end":7.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.24909375,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.548468750000001,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.555968750000002,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.78534375,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.67846875000001,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":77.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.97659375,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.13659375,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.80721875,"end":86.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.16096875000001,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.06346875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.57784375,"end":94.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.40034375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.48846875000001,"end":96.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.68659375,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.46596875,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.64721875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.20346875000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.48909375000001,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.30346875,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.93971875,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.30159375000002,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.22534375,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.75159375,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.29159375,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.05096875,"end":171.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.21096875,"end":176.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.75034375,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.59784375,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.41909375,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.32596875000002,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.12284375000002,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.73846875,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.52721875,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.72034375,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.62971875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.15596875000003,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.34971875000002,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.57596875000002,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.38971875000001,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.70159375000003,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.60846875000001,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.24721875,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.55909375000005,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.63909375000003,"end":274.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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我們有請我們洪部長部長請另外那個主計處專門委員也請好 部長我們今天討論的這個議題其實是很關鍵千萬勞工都在看就是說勞保基金面臨破產的問題這個是大家都知道的事情從2017年開始它的收支就呈現了不平衡"},{"start":32.95,"end":50.09,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下目前民進黨執政9年採取的都是撥補的措施沒有進行任何的改革那也就是這樣子今天才會有這麼多的委員希望既然現在短期採取撥補那不能說今天想要撥100億就100億"},{"start":51.972,"end":77.332,"text":"明年200億就是說很任意性的沒有一個固定的撥補的金額或是一定程度以上撥補的金額勞工不會安心所以今天才會有委員的版本其實也提出就是至少千億這樣的一個規模那首先我就要問部長你對於這個撥補你的立場是支持還是反對你說開放開放到底是支持還是反對"},{"start":78.198,"end":102.905,"text":"波普是我們現在持續在做的所以入法你是支持的波普兩個字入法我想這個波普的法制化我們是同意的但是你們反對就是限定金額主要是因為財政紀律財政紀律法裡面其實有明定你們現在其實坦白講也都千億規模啦有可能再更少嗎但是這不是少不少的問題是沒有辦法把固定金額入法"},{"start":104.022,"end":114.953,"text":"沒有辦法把固定金額入法那如果沒有辦法固定金額入法你要勞工怎麼相信就是我們的政府一定撥補的額度會讓他們不會憂慮短期之間沒有領不到錢的問題"},{"start":119.82,"end":145.357,"text":"其實我們這幾年 從去年是撥補了1300億那今年其實 今年公務預算是1200那接下來也包括特別預算裡面有100億所以這其實都目前都超過1000億以上的金額在撥補那我們當然我們會視財政的狀況我想我們會極力的爭取未來不要低於這個金額那甚至我們也希望能夠高於這個金額"},{"start":146.403,"end":150.017,"text":"所以你能保證未來的撥補的金額不會低於1300億"},{"start":152.637,"end":176.524,"text":"委員這不是保證的問題但我們會盡力的爭取而這幾年我們其實用實際的行動來去對呀 部長如果你沒有辦法掛保證然後呢這個入法又不肯洩明勞工就會不安心啊其實你可以 你也可以保證啊沒有寫固定的數字你可以說你當部長的時候我保證一定爭取超過1300億爭取我當然都要盡力爭取 爭取我絕對保證"},{"start":179.665,"end":204.468,"text":"可是因為實際的金額能夠有多少這還關乎到整個國家的財政 關乎到組總的權責所以爭取 如果是爭取的話 我當然一定爭取我一定保證爭取主席處 你們今天的這個報告裡面你們是反對撥補的對不對基本上不是反對 而是希望我沒有看到支持兩個字 你的通篇報告裡面只有說這個 下一頁"},{"start":206.028,"end":227.695,"text":"主席總書說要秉持裁員自給自足制度設計要雇主勞工政府三方共同負擔保費但你們沒有明確去回應今天的修法是支持或反對基本上我們其實是建議說在撥補之餘還是要考量整體的這個收支結構的調整要並同來考量以上為什麼為什麼是這樣的考量"},{"start":228.393,"end":240.006,"text":"因為這個是社會保險他基本上制度上的設計就是要由本來的這個雇主還有這個勞工還有我們政府一起來共同面對這個財務責任因為你們知道再怎麼撥補"},{"start":242.421,"end":261.56,"text":"就是也補不了對不對你看看這張圖事實上我必須坦白講我們的撥補只是一個短期讓勞工安心的措施這張圖表如果大家認真看未來50年勞保基金的收支表你可以看到他的支出是紅色的這條線這個將來的這個金額"},{"start":266.716,"end":276.706,"text":"這個大家仔細認真看喔將來這個金額都是突破上兆以上的這個金額那我們的收入都不會動"},{"start":279.304,"end":301.158,"text":"這個是引用你們的我們藍色的這條線保費的收入完全都不動現在大概都是4500億不會增加那中間的落差你就是要靠如果現在這個民進黨政府持續說撥補就是改革要靠撥補的話我跟各位講到123年的時候支出已經來到1兆500億"},{"start":303.079,"end":325.837,"text":"這個的逆差 收支的逆差會來到六千億部長 你應該好好看這個數字喔如果你不敢承諾一千三百億至少的撥補事實上你來到一百二十三年 十年以後這個的逆差恐怕已經是我不知道政府要花多少力氣一百二十九年的時候已經達到一兆"},{"start":327.404,"end":348.232,"text":"就是這樣的一個速度跟規模所以我也必須提醒大家撥補及時改革它是一個短期短期的效果長期的主計處講了大白話長期你如果整個保險制度你沒有做任何調整跟改革最終它就是這樣的效果政府有可能拿一兆以上的資金來撥補嗎"},{"start":349.252,"end":372.986,"text":"跟委員說明所以我才說我們當然希望我會指我們當然希望極力爭取撥補甚至也希望爭取撥補的金額能夠高於現在撥補的金額是那第二個其實這幾年我們其實在基金的投資上面其實也有很大的斬貨這也讓我們現在整體的基金的水位現在其實到了1兆2超過1兆2了像今年可能也增加超過2000億"},{"start":374.247,"end":397.144,"text":"那所謂除了撥補跟基金的投資其實都是在我們希望盡量去維持這個基金水位我覺得很明確而具體的做法那當然委員在講的提醒我覺得很重要那不過的確今天在給付或者是在保費上面的調整這當然攸關更多的勞工的權益所以這部分當然我覺得可能會需要一個社會更大的共識"},{"start":398.052,"end":412.373,"text":"但你有在思考這件事嗎有在研議這件事嗎還是波普其實改革從那個何佩珊講完之後這個就是政策其實也不用去思考未來更長期的改革各種的狀況跟情境我們當然都必須要思考"},{"start":413.374,"end":440.615,"text":"但是不同的做法也會在社會上面產生不同的意見我知道 執政其實必須就是要負責這一個問題我已經從許明春部長問到現在了許明春部長的時候他說有我們有一個小組請問那個小組還存在嗎他說那時候他還有一個小組他說我們還是持續在開會啊我們在研議那我問一下洪部長請問許明春時代的那一個針對勞保年金的改革的小組"},{"start":442.117,"end":458.59,"text":"還在嗎還是早就已經不在了這個議題其實根本沒有人要做長期的跟委員說明這不一定是什麼小組可是第一個是在這個議題裡面的各種的情境各種可能性其實勞動部都必須要去思考撥補是一個做法其中之一"},{"start":460.953,"end":476.092,"text":"撥補是其中之一那基金的投資也是那我們也在做其他開源節流的部分那當然如果委員是要問比方說降幾付或者是提高費率這部分當然就是要做整體的評估"},{"start":478.352,"end":504.726,"text":"這個部長你們可不可以提一個報告如果就我這樣的觀察123年喔這個收支逆差達到6000億喔你們會如何的改善然後預計要撥補多少基金投資收益要多少然後你剛剛說我還聽到你們要拍賣你們的資產就是說不動產就是來增加一些收益我是從媒體看到我不知道這個是不是確實的這不是我們主要的做法"},{"start":505.646,"end":518.895,"text":"對那我希望你們提一個報告好不好至少是10年10年的你們怎麼樣去因應這樣的一個收支的一個逆差的一個報告你們提得出來嗎我想我們可以給委員一份說明嗎可以齁好那要多久可以給本席兩個月"},{"start":522.339,"end":540.849,"text":"兩個月好那我希望可以看到這份報告接下來我要問那個移工的問題我直接看那個最後那個移工的那個開放政策移工的開放政策即將要破百萬那這樣的一個準備我們準備好了沒有最近大家都在看這個詐騙"},{"start":542.37,"end":556.599,"text":"那最近有幾起的新聞報導我覺得讓人家有點擔心就是因為我們失聯移工的這個人數其實也持續在增加當中那是不是有人去吸收他們就是有失聯移工去監這個車手然後這個"},{"start":561.212,"end":580.132,"text":"被抓到這樣的一個情況今天好像移民署也有來就是說面對這樣的一個情況你們發現現在的現況的比例到底是多還是是少因為我們這個是初步的這樣的一個統計外籍車手有1000人這個情況部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":581.113,"end":592.891,"text":"我們其實都一直看到相關的資訊然後其實也有請我們的法案署跟移民署那包括跟警政單位來做一些協同的討論我請這部分請我們署長來說明"},{"start":594.076,"end":619.861,"text":"好來署長您說包委員其實這個情況我們一直在跨部會的平台裡面我們也是member之一那我們其實透過從他的入境入境的時候以及入境後透過各樣的管道以及各樣實體或數位的課程我們做了非常多的宣導跟教育訓練那只要有類似這樣的案件的時候其實我們在第一線地方政府也都會透過相關的資訊做通報"},{"start":622.065,"end":637.982,"text":"因為我們現在需要這個外籍移工的比例各行各業都上升最近其實又放寬了一波但是我要提醒的就是勞動部跟移民署就是一方面放寬的同時我們的這個管理其實也很重要不是說因為"},{"start":639.203,"end":656.716,"text":"放寬之後然後進來然後這個逃逸的移工人數又增加那逃逸的增加有一些部分失聯還變成是車手變成是犯罪集團去吸收一部分那這個對於台灣的整體的我們的社會秩序跟環境就不是一件好事喔所以管理的責任在"},{"start":657.476,"end":675.044,"text":"勞動部跟移民署你們有管理的責任我希望這一塊要去強化要不然這樣我看起來是另外一層的隱憂對台灣的社會安全其實形成了隱憂跟我說其實我們一直在跟來源母國討論那怎麼樣子不管是宣導也好或者是也要請來源母國協助那針對"},{"start":678.405,"end":700.639,"text":"這個如果移工來台失聯的問題的話他們其實也應該要幫忙這個做一些相對應的處置這我們也是在跟他們討論那第二個也是其實移工失聯的問題其實某些部分也會跟這個強迫勞動的議題有關係所以我們其實接下來也會針對強迫勞動的議題進行一些相對應的這個策略來提出那我們都認為這可能會對於"},{"start":701.899,"end":714.826,"text":"這個移工試點的狀況那能夠有些幫助好我希望你們關注這一塊因為百萬移工即將要到來那我不希望這個又變成形成我們另外一個在治安或者是在社會秩序上面的引誘好不好謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abceb8bf0161d2b96fbfb6dfa65ed0fc1da41d86124363ebc2f30caff4e49f2b215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:55:06 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10:07:13","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T09:55:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T10:07:13+08:00","duration":727,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.63784375,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.130968750000001,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.15971875,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.88471875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.24596875,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.50659375000001,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.74034375000002,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.63221875000002,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.00721875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.20534375,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.23909375000002,"end":155.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.31471875,"end":156.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.42846875,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.45784375000002,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.07221875000002,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.97409375,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.30221875,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.89659375000002,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.03971875000002,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.36409375000002,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.45596875,"end":201.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.39596875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.29659375000003,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.51721875,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.80346875,"end":243.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.08596875,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.84096875,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.84846875000002,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.17721875,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.03596875,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.68346875000003,"end":327.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.53659375,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.04221875,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.05909375000005,"end":334.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.37471875,"end":348.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.39846875,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.10284375000003,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.06034375,"end":353.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.50721875000005,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.09346875,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.48534375,"end":376.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.59659375,"end":378.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.09846875000005,"end":442.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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我想請洪川部長請洪部長"},{"start":14.004,"end":34.123,"text":"部長我是很不想要用我的執行時間繼續跟你討論這個議題但我希望可以一舉把它解決因為上禮拜呢我質詢了有關於你會拖欠回復立委公文這件事結果問完之後沒關係我知道你要講什麼我問完之後呢好多不分黨派喔"},{"start":34.563,"end":58.854,"text":"不同委員會的委員喔 紛紛都跑來跟我說他們也遇到這樣子的議題好 我知道你今天早上已經給我一些部分的公文裡面有很多數據複製缺乳啦好 比如說這個是華家沙風災後臨時工的收案狀況你拖了40天給我 那目前你給我的報告不到一頁A4"},{"start":60.014,"end":86.808,"text":"那裡面的內容跟我在質詢台上問你的幾乎是一樣的我不太知道為什麼這樣子的東西需要拖40天給我另外有一些質詢率的問題我很明確的問到我希望給予質詢率但是婦女再就業計畫只有給我113年中高齡退休再準備協助補助計畫沒有給然後55 plus只有給113年"},{"start":88.829,"end":108.523,"text":"然後美國關稅供應鏈支持方案執行率沒有給很多都已經上路了只是再強化而已也沒有給出來我是想要幫其他的委員問因為很多委員就跑來問我說怎麼會你遇到這個問題我們也遇到了結果有些吹哨子就跑出來了"},{"start":109.304,"end":123.842,"text":"他們說這些公文就壓在一個地方就是你的部長室就是你的部長室我詢問了一些以前跟你曾經做過同事的人大家都說你是一個非常認真負責的立法委員並且你也會追公文"},{"start":124.543,"end":148.317,"text":"你也會跟部長追公文的我不知道為什麼你現在變成你以前口中很不喜歡的那樣子的人所以很多委員在等我今天質詢這一頁我們希望徹底解決這個問題我們希望徹底解決問題你到底是有還是沒有親自授意部長室扣押或者是羈押要給立法院的公文有還是沒有你只要回答我們這句話就好了"},{"start":148.697,"end":165.57,"text":"因為這個40天40天喔40天40天最後給出A4的當然沒有扣押你沒有扣押跟委員說明像委員其實要有這幾份資料我上禮拜其實已經說了我會請我們的同仁到委員的辦公室也親自跟委員說明其實相關的資訊"},{"start":168.12,"end":189.552,"text":"我會啊我會但是如果你可以來說明數據你為什麼不能把數據附在你回覆的公文裡面呢如果你都可以口頭說明了放到你的書面回覆裡面不是很好嗎根文說明吼第一個沒有什麼扣押沒有什麼扣押的問題那能夠提供的數據當然我們就"},{"start":190.918,"end":217.312,"text":"我們可以來看一下我們的這個工作的流程可以怎麼樣子來加速我想這部分我們可以來看一下我覺得你可能需要加速因為我是遇到不分黨派的人他們都說你跟以前的部長不一樣以前的部長很快就回復了不知道為什麼你的總是要拖這麼久那第二個具體的請求也希望你在這邊承諾我們當然這個是我們去問了吹哨者告訴我們說有這樣子的現象那你可不可以在這邊也承諾說"},{"start":218.513,"end":235.129,"text":"不要去徹查是不是有人可能透露這些公文都留在你的部長室你不要徹查好嗎因為勞動部已經變成了霸凌的一個壞榜樣之前這些新聞事件我們不希望這個事件又發生一次可以嗎你可以在這裡承諾嗎沒有這件事情當然不會有什麼徹查的問題"},{"start":240.836,"end":265.101,"text":"沒關係我們當然不會再看我們希望不會有任何人接到你去關心的這個資訊你絕對可以放心好再來賴總統任內每個勞動部部長都說要當全民的部長要當勞工的靠山但是在賴總統的任內目前有兩個靠山已經倒了我們希望你是第三座靠山"},{"start":266.781,"end":291.41,"text":"可以撐住齁那這個是11月14號勞動部公布了2024年國際勞動統計當然他們是綜合ILO啊 OECD國家各國的勞動統計年刊勞動指標等等的這個你應該也知道台灣的總工時又多出來了名次從世界第六又攀升到世界第五這不是什麼值得光彩的事情"},{"start":292.23,"end":314.843,"text":"本席也非常的擔心尤其是電子零組件最操勞他每年的工時到達2258.4小時我看了一下您過去的質詢其實你也蠻關心這樣子的議題的這是今年3月啊勞團才痛批勞動部部長以前是他們的夥伴但是現在很多事情都不回應當時他們給出來的數據是我國總工時2023年高達2020小時喔"},{"start":321.148,"end":323.836,"text":"現在你自己發布的新數據又多出10個小時欸變成2030小時"},{"start":329.222,"end":351.079,"text":"請問你可不可以簡短的講一講為什麼會這樣子然後你要做什麼跟委員說明其實我想要先釐清幾個因為的確我認為台灣的工時是有改善的空間但是並不是世界第五其實這是對於發布的資料有點誤讀因為它並不是所有200多個國家裡面等一下我們先不用去爭辯名次我們先不用爭辯名次我把它播回去來來來"},{"start":354.942,"end":381.998,"text":"這並不是世界第五啦我們先看一下我們先不用正面名次我們去比2023年也就是今年老團對你進行抗議的時候他們用的數據是2020小時嘛那現在你自己新發布的是2030小時嘛我們如果姑且不論名次的話你針對這個工時不斷的增加你有沒有什麼具體的大策略的改善方案跟委員說明第一個確實在去年的總工時的部分"},{"start":383.439,"end":409.218,"text":"其實這種數字上面的確是有提高那當然有一個很重要的原因就像剛剛委員說的電子零組件當然這跟整個國際上面在電子零組件上面的景氣有關係那因為他的出口的需求然後經濟狀況好所以他會把這個整個工時往上墊那我們也是意識到這件事情所以對勞動部來說我們這這麼多年來持續的一直在希望提高最低工資"},{"start":410.239,"end":429.039,"text":"那提高最低工資一個很重要的部分就是希望更多的勞工不要因為他的收入過低所以他必須要很依賴加班所以這也是為什麼我們希望一直提高最低工資而且這是連續做了十年很重要的原因這是第一個第二個我們當然也很希望就是顧主跟工會"},{"start":430,"end":452.977,"text":"可以強化就是比方說跟工會的這個團體協約高於法尊的團體協約可以去約定一些更有利於員工生活平衡的工時那這部分我們一直在鼓勵好因為他們說如果沒有提出相關的政策的話可能不排除再次發動抗爭那我這邊也跟你檢討一些數據這個是我們擔心的地方啦"},{"start":458.206,"end":479.213,"text":"我們也希望中高齡者勞參率可以升加碼這樣可以分攤一些我們國家的勞動力因為他們也有他們的智慧但是我把比較重要的地方圈起來了我們可以看到女性是55歲以後就雪崩式的往下掉男性則是60歲以後就往下掉代表什麼代表我們"},{"start":479.813,"end":506.051,"text":"台灣的退休年齡低於世界其他的國家包括日本 韓國 新加坡等等65歲以上的勞參率不到10%但是這一波退休潮還沒結束這個也是你應該都熟能詳的現在正是四五年級陸續到了65歲法定退休年齡那再來我們估計六年級也逐漸的邁入中高齡所以16年後會有一波很大的退休潮"},{"start":506.872,"end":521.79,"text":"預估是667萬人陸續超過法定的退休年齡那你看下面這個圖也非常的清楚我們65歲以上勞參率就不好那我們接下來看著你的這三項的執行率齁"},{"start":522.751,"end":528.318,"text":"我們看婦女在就業計畫25%中高齡退休在就業計畫1.833.625.6以及這個55plus54.9我想知道這個"},{"start":538.351,"end":555.368,"text":"你是不是因為現在我們就是不分男女其實都不夠高了嘛我們都希望他們多多參與你有沒有考慮未來把這幾項計畫合在一起然後直接的拉高補助否則你的這個執行率always是慘不忍睹啊"},{"start":555.928,"end":575.787,"text":"跟委員說明第一個其實我已經請我們發案署針對這些執行率而且計劃的整併希望能夠做一個更大的檢討我說這個檢討裡面包括幾件事情因為的確在我們很多的就業計劃裡面其實過去是長年的一支一支的累積有的時候計劃跟計劃之間會有些重複"},{"start":577.108,"end":591.805,"text":"那這個重複的狀況也會影響到執行率因為其實會有一些勞工他可能他知道一支計劃但他不知道另外一支計劃但也許他的身份是可以申請很多計劃所以我們也在請我們發展署把這些計劃如果需要的話做相關的整併做整合型的計劃這就是我剛建議你"},{"start":592.825,"end":615.013,"text":"这个整合型的计划如果做的时候他其实一次他可以知道有各种不同的资讯而不是他看到一支计划才去参与一个计划那其实对他来说也是一个负担所以这件事情我们现在也是在做但如果委员刚才在说的跟中高龄劳工有关的事情的话我请文发案署来说明一下这几年中高龄在我们修了这个中高龄的专法之后那目前其实增加的成效"},{"start":618.326,"end":640.947,"text":"因為我有跟你要114年現在都11月了你後來回覆的報告裡面並沒有給我執行率你沒有給我執行率你有給我113年所以我真的想知道你114年做的怎麼樣114年現在還在啊已經到11月了我們可以到會議室你也可以告訴我是不是有變好嗎對不對可以啊當然"},{"start":642.631,"end":655.108,"text":"是有變好啊大概多少我再把相關的數據我們再請那你的做法是什麼我可以請您的同仁回答沒關係您的做法是什麼"},{"start":658.035,"end":680.581,"text":"目前在中高齡的部分我們預計要擴大55歲以上相關在職場支持以及退休後再就業準備以及55歲以上就業獎勵措施擴大補助範圍的運用可應用來增加提升方案的執行率好"},{"start":682.55,"end":709.703,"text":"剛剛部長你還缺我很多數據那我也希望說同仁可以盡快來我們就面對面的做一個presentation跟討論以及一起研擬怎麼樣可以提高質詢率我覺得OK好不好但是以後希望我剛剛第一頁所提到的狀況也不要再發生了跟我說明這絕對沒有什麼押公文這件事情或押資料都沒有這些事情那所以也不絕對不會有什麼你說會去查什麼"},{"start":712.427,"end":721.802,"text":"報料者的問題這是絕對不會有這樣的事情你現在有具體承諾我們也比較安心這樣我們才可以保護告訴我們這些資訊的人謝謝部長你可以完全的放心謝謝陳金輝委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165505","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165505","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab87b684f89170083fc344f506729c478ca41d86124363ebc271dc8c628705a3665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:22:46 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謝謝主席那麼首先先邀請法務部正部長還有陳局長及廉政署的林副署長林副署長"},{"start":17.894,"end":36.701,"text":"吳委員長是 部長好我首先我想要問一個也是涉及到比較算是制度層面上面的問題這次週刊爆料有關於中油三階二期工程可能涉及舞弊的事情那裡面特別有提到就是這個檢舉人"},{"start":37.901,"end":56.428,"text":"他其實從三年前他就開始檢舉了那但是呢三番兩次的檢舉都沒有效果最後他不得已把這個檢舉的這個事情提供給週刊然後由週刊寫出來然後才引起大家的關注那所以本期想請教就是說你們對於目前"},{"start":57.168,"end":80.948,"text":"像是人民的檢舉案 告發案等等檢調單位不僅是地檢署還有調查局 廉政署你們有沒有一套受理的SOP還是說是檢舉案進來了基本上置之不理等到上面上級長官交辦之後才開始把檢舉函找出來看你們有沒有一套SOP"},{"start":83.515,"end":107.848,"text":"檢舉進來的話那個受理的機關他就會收文收文他們認為有涉及到犯罪事實的話就會做一個立案所以有涉及到犯罪事實才會立案基本上立案之後才開始偵辦才會有字號就是案件字號但是誰來認定說這個案子到底有沒有涉及犯罪事實要不要受理"},{"start":110.712,"end":114.758,"text":"你收了这些解决函之后他没有一个登载记录吗"},{"start":115.758,"end":144.435,"text":"這個一定 收文一定會有收文會有所以如果說是以這次的週刊上面講說這個檢舉人他基本上已經至少兩次了吧都有去檢舉那你們都沒有任何的收文的記錄嗎事實上這個案件其實在調查一個年度基本我了解是在週刊報的以前就有立案了都有在調查了所以沒有像這個週刊講說我們置之不理沒有那回事"},{"start":144.989,"end":169.819,"text":"所以也就是說基本上是檢調已經當時收到檢舉人的來函然後已經有開始算是有立案嗎 立案有再調查嗎這不過是不是這個是我請調查局跟那個聯證署來講聯證署來回覆一下報告委員 調查局先回答好不好是這個案子我們調查局只收過一次檢舉就是我在書面報告裡面提到就在今年的8月那我們收到檢舉以後我們就馬上就立案"},{"start":170.915,"end":180.42,"text":"所以你們調查局是8月的時候才收到這個檢舉第一次的檢舉兩三年前那時候沒有收到沒有另外聯證署呢"},{"start":182.989,"end":209.748,"text":"跟委員報告在113年我們有接到一份檢舉但是當時檢舉的內容不是很具體那比較像是單位就是國營事業裡面可能在預算的編列上有問題所以當時是交由經濟部的政風處轉由總有的政風處來進行調查那今天經濟部看是次長還是可以回覆"},{"start":213.676,"end":227.375,"text":"請次長說明一下你們有收到檢舉函嗎我們這邊有收到就是從那個我們廉政署交下來的一個查查的一個資料所以是在去年就收到了去年那在此之前呢在此之前是沒有"},{"start":231.219,"end":233.721,"text":"我必須說當然這個事情現在已經檢調已經在進行偵辦了那麼我希望就是說可以把這個檢舉的這個事情相關的流程要弄清楚這檢舉人基本上大概已經檢舉了不止兩次如果說14年8月可能還有去年他說三年前他就有檢舉了"},{"start":251.474,"end":278.515,"text":"那么所以到底这些检举进了检调单位 廉政署之后是不是石沉大海到底谁有权决定说有没有涉及犯罪事实有没有开始要成立立案那本席认为说这个事件很重要的事情那么事实上法务部自己内部你们有定定检查机关办案期限及防止羁押实施要点防止羁延实施要点那在这个实施要点里面其实没有看到就是说有关于像是受理这个检举函"},{"start":279.275,"end":294.545,"text":"就如果有解決函提出來之後他的誰要是不是要受理誰來決定這個部分是不是可以請部長你們之後可以去延期重新檢討這份實施要點有沒有需要再做檢討"},{"start":295.585,"end":323.671,"text":"那個我們再來做一個再做一個檢視那我想我們沒有再刺案了剛才委員有很關心這個問題那我想廉政署剛才有提到是在去年就有收到這個而且那個檢舉說到底是跟哪個機關哪個單位檢舉我們不清楚我們現在僅能夠就我們所屬的機關我們接獲的檢舉或者是像上次那個辦那個那個是委員會是一個會上次"},{"start":324.391,"end":350.689,"text":"對 記者會那一次有把這個資料轉給台北地檢署來依法來偵辦那這部分我想我們這邊的控管都是相當的嚴謹的我希望你們的管控是嚴謹的因為呢 事實上如果從剛剛的這個各個不同機關的說明裡面就可以知道不是說沒有受到檢舉函只是你們認為可能沒有那麼嚴重不涉及到犯罪 所以根本沒啟動那在中間有沒有可能"},{"start":351.169,"end":363.335,"text":"有人是故意把這個案子沒收起來了好不曉得不過就是沒關係這個部分我想本席這邊已經了解清楚了那麼確實是就是如同週刊上面所報告所講的那個新聞檢舉人的確他之前就已經有檢舉了"},{"start":368.317,"end":390.473,"text":"那是不是寄給不同的機關都是同樣的檢舉函而有些機關有受理有些機關沒有受理那麼總之就這個案子來講的話基本上還是要盡速的去查辦好那接下來呢我要想問的就是說事實上有關於今天在防務部的報告裡面也有寫到有關於機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":391.414,"end":405.53,"text":"那其實這個政策基本上是蠻不錯的主要是為了要確保國家重大的公共建設的品質以及廉潔所以廉政署有積極推動機關採購廉政平台的機制那到目前為止根據你們自己的"},{"start":407.031,"end":432.065,"text":"這個裡面的報告內容已經設立了90案的廉政平台然後其中有64個案子還在持續運作有25個案已經結案了有一個案因為政策調整暫緩但我想請問一下就是為什麼我們台灣的重大工程這麼多件但是事實上只有90案有成立機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":433.54,"end":459.457,"text":"标准是什么这个是有一个在法务部有在2016年就有颁布的一个机关采购廉政平台的一个实施计划但是因为本来就是政府采购是采最低标那最低标会有一些的现象就是工程品质没办法做一个确保所以那就采最有利标所以在那个情况之下说又有责有法务部去去定定这个机关采购廉政平台"},{"start":459.497,"end":486.85,"text":"是的 部長我知道我剛說了我基本上認為說這樣子的一個概念這樣的一個機制是很好的但是全台我們現在每年政府有這麼多的重大公共工程公共工程的採購案為什麼只有90個案子是有成立廉政平台這邊可能要請經濟部次長可能也請您回覆經濟部旗下那麼多國營事業這麼多的案子請問您知道你們現在有多少案子是有成立廉政採購"},{"start":487.89,"end":516.686,"text":"平台的嗎 採購廉政平台我們現在就針對綠能還有一些水利署的一些案件我們有運用這個廉政的這個採購的平台來協助 那我接下來想請那個方董事就是請忠祐董事長還有台電的台電董事長請問董事長兩位董事長你們目前你們自己公司裡面的這些採購案有成立採購廉政平台嗎"},{"start":518.768,"end":545.057,"text":"我印象中有幾個案子有成立譬如說週季二期的石化除草那你們這次的中油三接的這個案子有嗎三接這個工程沒有所以你們是什麼樣的標準有些要成立有些又沒有成立像這麼金額這麼龐大的案子竟然沒有成立機關採購廉政平台這個基本上也是一個"},{"start":547.561,"end":565.109,"text":"很明顯的一個疏失可能就是在當時就是幾個重大的工程去選擇的問題理論上應該是每一個重大工程案都要成立啊如果說他提早成立的話也許就不會發生像今天這樣的錯誤請問像台電董事長你們有成立嗎"},{"start":569.097,"end":587.963,"text":"我們有成立我們有成立就包括現在在招標中的合一合二室內幹處的案子包括離岸二期的案子幾個重大的案子比較金額大的我們都有成立廉政平台我想請中郵跟台電這裡就是要提供給我一份資料還包含那個"},{"start":589.383,"end":602.891,"text":"經濟部 就是你們目前就是有多少的重大公共工程案子然後有多少件是成立了這個採購廉政平台這相關的數量要給我我想至少100億以上的案子都算是大案子吧"},{"start":603.951,"end":620.39,"text":"甚至可能51百億以上都是大案子但是呢我沒有想到竟然實際上成立的這麼少那麼以我們這次看到你們這個這麼嚴重的弊案竟然沒有之前就沒有成立這樣的案子讓我們真是匪夷所思好那接下來我還要再請教中油"},{"start":623.493,"end":646.686,"text":"董事長的一個問題就是這次我們可以看到主要是台灣世襲公司他基本上針對三接二期的計畫提了相關的預算的評估那在第一次是提的是238億那麼第二次又增加到253億那我想請教就是中油"},{"start":647.606,"end":669.068,"text":"裡面有沒有針對世西公司所提出的預算報告有一個在控管或是在查核的一個機制我們怎麼知道世西這樣的報價對不對你們有經過什麼樣的審查機制嗎當然在公司內部會有一個複核的機制我們會去查他所提供的一些大宗"},{"start":669.708,"end":696.084,"text":"物料 大宗物料 譬如說壞石啦 鋼筋混泥土啦這些用量比較大的這些基礎材料呢會去做一個查核 查死的動作因為如果說是以這次的週刊上面的這些報導的話那本席也認為說其實世錫公司在當時針對這個二階外推的工程的預算評估或許也有問題"},{"start":697.725,"end":723.635,"text":"也有問題 是不是他裡面他也福報就是因為他一開始他福報了 他就是應該是他他應該是 他就是把這個估價估得高了 然後你們後來又依照那個比較高的價格去公告所以才會產生後續這種福報工程費的這個問題所以對於世西這個顧問公司裡面 他當時他做的每一個計畫你們的負荷是"},{"start":727.324,"end":750.75,"text":"如實的嗎就是你們有真正的去好好的去看裡面的問題嗎是當然我們有好好的看這第一點當然我想接下來檢調單位會針對這個案子繼續去做詳查那麼尤其是我們看到這次連政署他所做的這個報告法務部報告也說所有現在國營事業裡面的弊案就以中游最多"},{"start":751.63,"end":772.06,"text":"所以你們真的要深切檢討怎麼可能紀律風紀會荒唐到這樣的一個程度實在是不可思議喔所以董事長應該要好好的要去整頓中油內部好不好好OK那今天就談到這邊那接下來我要我剛剛所請你們要提供的報告也請你們在禮拜五之前提供給我好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab69e909001948b6aac344f506729c478ca41d86124363ebc2058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:12:05 - 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董事長早我想我們花一些時間來釐清相關媒體的訊息也來釐清一下剛剛三位委員的槌尋我認為有弊案該查就查 該說就說那中郵該對全民交代就對全民交代但是我認為有一些基本的訊息我們一起來釐清那我手上的左手邊這個投影片是馬政府時代所規劃的這個方案我想你應該非常清楚 對嗎你在中郵待非常久了"},{"start":44.492,"end":64.922,"text":"之前也擔任過天然氣事業執行部的執行長對嗎是的好那所以左手邊呢這個是馬總統時代所規劃的232公頃的大潭藻礁後來呢因為環團的抗議有人民的聲音所以呢到了蔡政府時代就一個是外推對嗎是的好外推多長"},{"start":68.202,"end":91.447,"text":"455公尺也就是原來在沿岸外推455公尺第一個再來原本是232公頃可是因為當時有藻礁的議題所以我們把面積縮小了從232縮減到23公頃對嗎是的好那我我認為如果我們看這一次媒體相關爆料出來這個案子困境應該是因為外推所衍生出來的相關成本增加對嗎對沒有錯"},{"start":92.847,"end":120.302,"text":"好 那我們辦公室的整理是這樣 您看一下原本的方案是只有五個方案要做包含棧橋工程 企劃工程 儲槽 路管跟配器站可是因為做了外推這件事情我剛剛說是為了配合環團跟人民對於藻礁保育的疑慮所以呢 蔡政府時代做了外推的規劃也因為這個外推現在這個案子是因為觀塘接收站外推方案之外擴防波堤新建工程這253億 對嗎"},{"start":122.003,"end":141.652,"text":"是的好 目前的資訊是這樣 我們先幫國人釐清到底這253億的錢到底是放在哪邊是使用好 原本你們的規劃是這樣如果我說的都是對的話 我們來看一下如果按照公共工程招標的相關規定我們必須要做招標文件公開閱覽公告 對嗎就是我右手邊這一張"},{"start":142.692,"end":153.861,"text":"我們現在看到的數字呢當時你們在111年的1月12上網公告這個外推就是我剛剛說外推400多公尺這個方案你們當時的預算金額是238.4億"},{"start":157.028,"end":185.178,"text":"公開閱覽的時候是公開閱覽的時候是這樣說好我可以問一下但是我左手邊呢我們來看一下我左手邊相關的媒體新聞說的呢說了非常多數字94億啦122、150、220、256到253但是你們的說法是說呢公開閱覽的時候寫的是238.4後來呢到底是發生了什麼事情為了到了4月29號招標第一次公告變253關於這個部分可不可以請董事長說一下"},{"start":185.778,"end":206.238,"text":"為什麼公開閱覽是238.4但是第一次招標公告的時候到了253是 謝謝委員讓我說明我們在公開閱覽的時候是238.41對就確定了那麼公開閱覽當然就是目的就是希望民眾或者是廠商對於我們公開閱覽的這些所有資料有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":207.919,"end":223.009,"text":"同時台灣世西也對於三個廠商去詢價把這些資訊收集了以後 最終做一個研判這三家廠商都有回報他們的報價資料這個範圍大概在240到270億之間"},{"start":228.553,"end":255.265,"text":"你說不同的廠商報價回來的數字所以240到270對好 接下來請說對於這個公開月欄所提供的意見譬如說在什麼數量上他們認為說你的數量上有沒有不足的地方或者是多的地方或是相關的契約條有沒有需要做調整的那麼把這些公開的這些資訊收集了以後呢再做一個最後的中整的那麼台灣世信呢給我們提供的資料是253億"},{"start":257.066,"end":272.389,"text":"好 所以我們就根據這個253我們就做了4月29號招標第一次公告 對嗎經過公司的一個內部程序好 那到了6月29號招標也是253這中間還發生了什麼樣的事情這中間沒有發生任何事情好 那為什麼有二次招標公告"},{"start":272.87,"end":290.212,"text":"因為第一次招標的時候不足三家是所以留標好 不足三家留標所以到第二次有順利有三家嗎還是兩家還是兩家但是我們7月29還是做了絕標253億是好 那這個流程看起來都是公開資料所可以查得到的"},{"start":290.632,"end":317.173,"text":"但是我個人比較好奇為什麼在週刊裡面出現這麼多數字是94到253但是我們過往在相關採購法的規定公開閱覽公告的這個要進行正式上網公告之前我們通常會有多久的作業時間要去跟相關的專家學者討論跟相關的公司或者是收集更多的意見通常你們做出這個公開閱覽公告之前的前置時間以這個案例為例"},{"start":318.214,"end":338.304,"text":"你們做了多久的討論跟收集意見我請黃國總做說明好不好好 是跟委員報告那公開越南法定的時間是工作天所以前後大概十天加上內部的一個評估一個月內應該就可以把相關的招標文件訂稿以上報告"},{"start":338.564,"end":352.729,"text":"好 一個月內相關招標文件可以定稿可是在這之前呢你們為了這個三接的這個防波體興建你們花了多少時間研究它到底相關工程的難度可能跟所需的預算跟可能需要到什麼樣的工程技術你們花了多久時間研議這個案子可以給我一個大概的數字嗎我想委員想知道就是台灣471它做內部的設計跟評估大概花了多少時間對有沒有這個資訊"},{"start":367.941,"end":395.06,"text":"是不是我們目前沒有這個資訊好 沒關係你們幫我們再幫我們提供但是我來看我認為一般人我們都不是工程專業我們也不是相關專家學者就算現在我們要立刻讀了這些資料我們不見得可以立刻消化但是我認為人民會擔心一件事情也會想要問一件事情到底這個數字有沒有合理就工程的專業跟所需要的成本回到我剛剛那個前面那張投影片就是外退那個圖 謝謝"},{"start":396.501,"end":425.235,"text":"來 往前推 再前一張外推的這個工程呢 第一個 關鍵是一 不可以破壞礁體 不可以浚挖原外海填區21公頃不填 防波堤變短 海域更開放然後呢 預算增加 然後供氣 然後還要離岸這些這些這些 我看起來都有相關的難度 對嗎是的我可不可以請董事長分享一下國外有沒有相關的案例 或是在台灣有沒有相關的案例讓人民可以想像 這個成本對照起來是合理的"},{"start":426.104,"end":432.63,"text":"我想在國外一定有類似的案例對 例如但是這個我好 那台灣呢 台灣呢"},{"start":433.086,"end":458.26,"text":"那麼台灣的話就是在台灣的幾個天然氣接收站當然都是建港包括了就是我們永安所謂的一街一街然後三街那麼以及未來的四街以及五街還有現在在高雄的七街它都是屬於在岸邊的去興建一個港但是這個"},{"start":459.637,"end":476.909,"text":"三接它比較不同的 它是一個離岸的離岸的一個港 剛剛提到就是說距離要經由棧橋來去連接最遠的距離到達1.2公里所以它本身三接來講 在港本身的建設它的困難度是相當的高"},{"start":477.349,"end":506.106,"text":"等一下 剛剛董事長您說了一個關鍵 妳說高雄的七階它是在岸邊嘛 對不對 就是原本比較像是馬總統規劃的那個岸邊可是如果我們去查高雄洲際七階防波堤每公尺的興建成本跟三階幾乎是接近的很高 其實也是要五百萬到六百萬之間所以如果按照您的推論 三階難度更高而且外推的內容更寬然後必須要考慮生態保育的工程越多那現在這個數字看起來應該是合理的數字囉"},{"start":507.47,"end":530.222,"text":"我認為是很合理的數字以三接跟七接來比的話三接除了它離岸比較遠以外因為它的水域也比較深好 第一個水域深 還有呢第二個在它的一個施工在岸上的一個要做沉箱的區域它周邊的土地是沒辦法提供所以它必須要從台北港這邊"},{"start":531.243,"end":555.972,"text":"很遠的地方送到三接的所在地這個航程所花的這個成本也是相當的一個高好所以就現在為止我認為我們一般人會在意的問題就是工程難度高不高所以我們需要花了這麼多錢還有相關公告的時間在這之前我們到底聽過多少專家學者的意見也不會只有業界的意見跟相關工程的評估你們都認為是合理的那我最後就要說我認為"},{"start":556.972,"end":583.692,"text":"如果我們認為是合理合法的我們應該就自己來把話說清楚當然我們非常支持剛剛所有委員的建議正風檢調 該查就查 該辦就辦有新的事證我們就來討論我覺得要讓國人對中油有信心對所有的國家公共工程有信心最後我也要拜託中油我想在配合調查的過程當中有相關事證或者是相關檢調跟你們要任何資料我覺得該公開就公開"},{"start":584.272,"end":611.885,"text":"我們給國人一個交代我們自己好好把話說清楚就如同我們今天看的不管是公開閱覽的公告資料或者是相關預算甚至是最前面一張我提的我們從本來是近海岸的這個三接變成後來外推這件事情我們所必須額外衍生的成本跟相關工程的困難我認為我們都應該要一併讓國人知道當然弊案的部分我們絕對支持法務部相關後續的動作好不好"},{"start":612.225,"end":622.071,"text":"那就拜託忠友我們就自己把事情說清楚就如同我們今天花了這些時間把這些基本的資料搞清楚也非常重要好嗎好謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab00ae04357ad75e0ec344f506729c478ca41d86124363ebc2b63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:58:52 - 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我們麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部"},{"start":21.851,"end":36.102,"text":"先請教工程會我看一下上週的預告修正的政府採購法那我看到的是要刪除三加比較限制的條款那目的是為了提升效率還有鬆綁基層採購的壓力是不是這樣"},{"start":38.884,"end":58.013,"text":"報告委員原則上是往這個方向但是我們現在看到的就是因為民進黨長期執政之下其實有一個東西已經被台灣大多數人所公認就是民進黨執政之下其實圖利瓜分這個國家的財產變成是一個日常"},{"start":59.173,"end":80.463,"text":"那連今天經濟部的報告都說要會全程依法公開 程序會嚴謹但是國營採購的必然還是層出不窮就像今天那個中油的董事長說啦從對黃國昌的回應還有對羅志強的回應你一直講一句話說你不認同他們的指控但是我今天要跟你講不要說剛剛那兩位立委的說法啦"},{"start":81.503,"end":110.019,"text":"調查局跟廉政署的報告都已經講得很清楚了他有提到說近五年來移送以中油最多台電次之所以剛剛那兩位委員的質疑是錯的嗎你說你不認同 那你不認同就不認同嘛但是今天調查局還有廉政署的報告已經認證了貴公司就是弊案最多 遭移送對象最多的單位還是你要質疑他們兩位 還是你要告那兩個單位"},{"start":111.206,"end":124.802,"text":"不是 報告委員我剛剛所說的就是說這個貪腐它不是結構性都是個案那中油公司的話案件是比較多不是結構性的是個案那這個就不是不是弊案嗎"},{"start":126.468,"end":152.39,"text":"當然是個案啊那個案多了因為貴公司最多嘛我國的國營企業這麼多公部門這麼多但是貴公司目前是調查局的報告說得很清楚移送對象是中油最多對那這個你承認嗎這個我承認因為這是統計的結果好 我想既然有調查局的認證那我們也就不用再多爭論了啦所以我覺得今天我不是質疑單一個案我覺得"},{"start":153.351,"end":173.288,"text":"我們今天看到國營事業有很多的問題我先提出幾個問題第一個 預算支出可以無限的暴漲第二個 工地安全也被漠視第三個 肥貓酬庸 它是無限的肥油然後工程採購無限的黑箱所以我今天看到這四個無限"},{"start":174.537,"end":197.659,"text":"一個是支出無限暴漲 工地安全無限的漠視肥貓酬庸可以無限的肥油工程採購可以無限的黑箱我今天看到的狀況是這樣那也不用跟我們說沒有因為這幾年確實國營事業讓大家質疑很多點然後包括今天我又看到一個新的現在不是三接有問題一二接現在也有事情要爆出來"},{"start":198.32,"end":227.522,"text":"那如果照這樣講原來綠能政策然後它所引起的必須要大量的燒天然氣後面原來有這些弊案一階 二階 三階如果都有弊案的話那到底我國的能源轉型是轉辛酸的嗎是轉到最後光電 綠電 風電一堆弊案現在連因為要搞綠電所引起的天然氣接收站也弊案連連那我就很懷疑說我們的政府他到底帶給我們人民是什麼"},{"start":228.323,"end":241.319,"text":"他當初告訴我說為了要搞綠能要留下最好的台灣給下一代結果現在看到是弊案連連山野光電板 海野光電板水庫野光電板 到處光電板然後"},{"start":242.369,"end":265.775,"text":"然後不知道在做什麼然後一堆弊案在裡面這怎麼對得起長期支持政府的這些選民所以我剛剛所說的我們今天看到很曾經穩定國家民生而且會賺錢的這些公司現在併入高峰的四大通病就我剛剛講的第一個預算的失控人民的納稅錢被當提款機"},{"start":267.048,"end":288.431,"text":"搞了一大堆追加預算一些有的沒有的搞出來第二個公安的漠視然後最近也有有幾個案子有一些人命待會我會講第三個從酬庸就是一直塞人進去包括吳英寧等等的這些案子然後再來還有一個圖利舞弊從工程到招考有一大堆的問題包括之前的一些"},{"start":289.452,"end":308.247,"text":"招考的時候的電子舞弊的弊案所以我就不懂說國營世界怎麼會淪落到今天高層搞酬庸 低層搞電子舞弊來招生這不知道在搞什麼好 那我請問一下經濟部門中油預算的失控啦 我想請問兩位中油的中油的這個"},{"start":313.251,"end":320.218,"text":"三階的工程款它是來自於與政府的增值那我請問一下這是不是政府這是人民的納稅錢或人民的資產請問是不是"},{"start":322.056,"end":350.295,"text":"當然從廣泛來講 最終工程完工以後當然就是公司的資產 同時也是國家的資產他就是全民的資產 沒錯嘛 對不對我跟你講 我看到了就是2022年 中油前執行長那個叫什麼 徐翰他被查出收賄1687萬其實這還蠻離譜 被封為最貪的公務員當時還起訴了蠻多人請問一下貴公司有沒有做什麼樣的改善"},{"start":352.161,"end":371.17,"text":"有 在當時Deutsch做了一個檢討我們要求所有的主管同仁都應該以此為戒那個不叫做改善 我跟你講當時你們還發了一個新聞稿說法律是道德最低標準然後國營企業的操守形象都不容打折"},{"start":372.011,"end":388.167,"text":"要求大家用更高調的標準來處理這個承辦的業務但是這沒有用啊搞到最後還是口號至上啊變成是口號的巨人 但是實際上的侏儒啊我看到的狀況是這樣嘛那公安的問題 終於你們公安的問題也是我剛剛提到了"},{"start":389.568,"end":417.914,"text":"2019年12月台北港的城鄉吊掛三死四傷然後呢今年7月那個桃園三街還有一個作業員溺斃啦其實這個都是嚴重的公安事情嘛那我覺得用人的問題非專業卡在重要的位置以及這些高層的貪腐其實跟公安絕對有一敵兩面的事情啦不是沒有關係所以我希望你們兩個月內交一個公安缺失還有改善的報告給市長法治委員會好不好"},{"start":418.435,"end":423.471,"text":"還要附上一些相關的資料 這個請你務必做到那我想請問一下經濟部 經濟部"},{"start":426.884,"end":449.286,"text":"我想除了中油之外台肥也是很多弊案包括前董事長康信宏任內的南港C2開發案讓公司損失幾億然後還有康信宏跟總經理黃耀新他們的福報差旅費還有台肥到大陸地區投資失敗的這些例子我想台肥也是一堆問題"},{"start":450.948,"end":463.101,"text":"台研也是啊綠能的成取益的問題對不對然後還有之前吳亦寧的人事案的議題所以我覺得奇怪大家把國民世界當作自己的金庫嗎怎麼會搞成今天這樣那"},{"start":466.75,"end":488.658,"text":"國營事業現在變酬庸的一個位置然後內控都失能也都掏空才會有這麼多弊案所以我想麻煩你們一個月內能夠提一個國營事業的董作總經理人事還有問責績效制度的改善方式不要每一次事件爆發都換個人而已好不好我們麻煩法務部長還有調查局局長"},{"start":493.852,"end":513.312,"text":"部長 我想請問一下之前國營事業 中油 中鋼 台電這個電子招考舞弊的問題你們後來有集合去查辦嗎這邊有查辦 這個是廉政署藍調組有來查辦那也麻煩廉政署這部分你們有沒有查辦"},{"start":520.317,"end":528.269,"text":"報告委員 這個部分都已經輸了好 我跟你們講因為我剛剛所說的我們現在國民世界變什麼高層搞酬庸"},{"start":529.509,"end":557.747,"text":"對不對 綠油油跟選戰出力者高層搞酬庸 低層電子舞弊那難怪經濟上面也出問題公安也出問題嘛 績效也出問題 弊案一大堆這都可以理解啊 你從高層到低層都出了問題所以這個要麻煩你們能夠仔細的把它查清楚好不好那如果目前還有一些相關的相關的這種團體還在搞的話也要請你們積極的去做部長這部分有沒有辦法督促一下"},{"start":559.229,"end":579.517,"text":"這部分這是一個預防的一個作為因為已經有電子有一些的舞弊那些也都依法偵辦的偵辦的好像應該是有兩波那後來這部分有督請國營事業這部分在那個招考新員工的時候要必須要落實絕對要有防弊的一個作為"},{"start":580.057,"end":597.034,"text":"那這邊如果說委員有需要的話我們請您證書來提供對 你們還是要資料給我因為我跟部長報告一下喔就我跟部長已經往來好幾次了那我只希望一個點我們發現問題麻煩你們要提出解決之道而且那解決之道要實際能做的而不是說"},{"start":597.634,"end":618.791,"text":"只是虛隱故事我們不會看不懂你是不是虛隱故事我跟你講而且不要說我每次跟你討論制度你就說這個是個案問題然後我跟你問個案然後你又說偵查不公開不然就說這個個案不予評論搞到最後都不用講了問制度也不用講問個案也不用講所以不能這樣子麻煩你們對於電子舞弊這個事情"},{"start":619.471,"end":641.537,"text":"能夠把你們後續的有沒有一些宣導或偵查的作為改善能夠怎麼加強偵查這塊能夠給我們一份報告好不好最後我想我自己個人我總共辦了11年的數灘我覺得我還是要提一個其實國營事業或政府機關會出事大概就是不拖國營機關採購會出事就那三樣"},{"start":644.479,"end":655.379,"text":"投標前設建再劃把投標中執行中灌水之後沒有人負責大概就是主要這三個"},{"start":657.092,"end":683.566,"text":"價格常常都是先設建再化因為很多國營世界的採購不是靠市場競爭是靠關係所以先有想花的錢再用規格跟房價去把金額護航起來我想各位辦過數攤的現場的有連政署有之前的警察官有部長你們都知道我在講什麼那第二個招標看起來乾淨但是後面在灌水對不對你後面在變更設計追加預算展演供期驗收鬆綁然後呢"},{"start":684.306,"end":698.639,"text":"如果說前面搞不定後面就去壓那些分包的那些廠商壓那些安全的維護所以到最後出事情發生公安的都是工人但是品質不佳受害的是全民所以我在這邊提出一個要求就是"},{"start":699.66,"end":723.366,"text":"如果將來有重大門檻變更的話如果差價譬如說大於15%那是不是要啟動二次審查這個部分麻煩經濟部也能夠思考一下要不要再啟動二次審查如果價額你後面追加或灌水有時候我們還聽到三四成以上那是不是只要超過15%我們為了看守人民的荷包麻煩做二次的審查這跟政黨無關 這為國家好"},{"start":725.367,"end":750.659,"text":"那第三個就是從我剛剛講的招考的舞弊到酬庸的那個這肥貓文化我想這幾個點是我覺得我自己在辦以前辦這種案子之後我心裡的感覺這幾個點一定要把它解決好所以那個也請廉政署針對這個國營事業的接避受理調查保護救濟資訊公開SOP等等的你在一個月內能夠給我一個"},{"start":751.819,"end":776.874,"text":"國營事業 接避保護執行方案的書面然後而且要發佈一個就是公營事業跟這些它的一個通用範本讓大家有跡可循否則我跟你講這些國營事業這些寄生蟲將來就是跟蟑螂一樣一直冒出來而且永遠打不完但是我覺得我們國人要用多少條命多少億元下去補這個洞我覺得這都不應該好不好"},{"start":777.614,"end":782.101,"text":"那再麻煩各位要能夠積極的處理這件事情好 謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"165494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abb0d90b52e78468194a62993df726b2225fbc24375b25c47473de26ceb07beb505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:34:25 - 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謝謝主席回到教文非常的開心那我要先說非常感謝昭緯安排這次的公聽會不過剛聽了兩個部會的報告我要說非常遺憾因為等一下我要講的我保證你們都聽過但是你們決定用很消極的行政作為來面對我等一下要講的所有個案"},{"start":18.644,"end":32.934,"text":"第一個從地府上任之後我們第一個處理的案件是連江縣角力的教練性騷案這個教練性騷案被確認了確認了之後呢校方只給予申戒然後讓這個教練繼續在教育局服務"},{"start":33.795,"end":62.027,"text":"重點是這個教練還繼續上場當裁判請問所有的學生看到這個教練情何以堪到了2023年9月台南有一個藝術團隊雖然是民間的補習班相關課程但是他長期利用招攬學生上課然後到宮廟去做表演然後持續多年的對多位超過十位以上的女學生有各式各樣的性犯罪細節我就不再說我相信大家都非常的清楚相關行政單位"},{"start":63.047,"end":89.375,"text":"到了11月我們發現台北市五人足球教練因為不當對待兒少接受兒少法裁罰公告姓名可是這個被公告姓名的人依然在校園還有體育署當時的體育署所主辦的賽事中橫行出入體育署當時說這個教練沒有教練證不關我們的事就完美的切割但是這個人他現在依然在相關協會進出甚至接受相關的體育賽事的補助當中他都有相關角色"},{"start":90.777,"end":114.702,"text":"這些不適任教練我在立法院的質詢當中我都已經多到自己都不知道該怎麼說我不知道這些教練所謂不適任教練在體育署過去的政策視野當中是怎麼看待的不論是性騷霸凌不當管教大部分都是小過深切輕輕放下重點是他們會繼續回到教育現場因為有一個非常完美的證照保護系統讓這些人繼續在現場流竄"},{"start":117.483,"end":142.696,"text":"我所謂的完美是指的是對這些犯罪人非常的完美但是對我們的學生非常的不公平非常的不正義甚至非常的不恰當當我們口口聲聲說要保護兒少的時候這些主責行政機關的大人卻是對這些加害者輕輕放下甚至在民間揭露已久的松山高中籃球隊的教練孩子們都指正立立相關的成人選手也都指正立立但沒有作為就是沒有作為"},{"start":143.817,"end":160.715,"text":"還有影片在英哥工商的排球隊拿球打小孩這件事情相關影片網路上大家也都看得非常清楚依然沒有作為不調查或是申請了事再看下一張我剛剛只是舉了其中一些例子世大女族案"},{"start":161.883,"end":181.141,"text":"西螺羽球不當管教案新竹縣體操烘魚教練性侵案新竹生態教室教練性侵案桃園棒球隊鴨子走路案台北高中和球隊教練體罰案台中棒球隊教練性侵案花蓮羽球教練性侵案新竹縣桌球教練性騷猥褻案這些都是在我們辦公室處理過的體育陳情"},{"start":182.512,"end":205.462,"text":"我不知道現場大人你們聽了有什麼感觸我自己身為兩個小孩的媽媽我早早的發現在體育現場就有非常多的家庭因為沒有好的文化資源沒有好的法律常識他們的孩子在體育團體當中就是受害者 弱勢的那一方而所有大人完美的系統包圍這些加害者繼續加害我們現場的小孩"},{"start":206.002,"end":223.079,"text":"我非常認同剛兩位老師說的當然不要只有兒少可是如果我們光是面對最弱勢的一群兒少都是用這樣的態度我不知道後續的運動部要如何看待過去在體育署時代留下來的問題更不要說現在所有體育署的人全部直接升官到運動部去了"},{"start":223.76,"end":249.875,"text":"不要告诉我这些你们没有记忆不要告诉我这些跟你们一点关系都没有如果这个国家要承诺保护儿少就请你们大人拿出实职作为过去的体育署都说这是个案啦委员这是商业机制啦我们零容忍部长也曾经说他觉得非常的羞辱看到这样的案件当时的教育部部长可是家长们看到的是这些教练一再的被纵容然后在民间流传刚有一位老师也讲到俱乐部的问题"},{"start":250.795,"end":278.283,"text":"還有深屆交差我想要跟大家講一個系統裡面現在最大的困境如果陳培瑜這個教練曾經對某些小孩做出性侵性騷判定成立之後我會被某一個單項協會教練證除名除名之後就看不到我陳培瑜的名字了可是如果今天陳培瑜換考另外一個教練證還考過了我可以在全民運動的場域家長是查不到陳培瑜犯過這個錯的我要告訴大家 往下"},{"start":279.758,"end":299.806,"text":"在這兩年我們辦公室不是只有處理個案最後還是要回到法規面來看我們提出過修法建議跟政策建議我們提醒體育署要兒少工作證當時的教育部長也承諾會往下推我要拜託現在的里洋運動部長不管是跟衛福部還是教育部要積極的討論兒少工作證雅琳委員也有提出修法"},{"start":300.632,"end":326.872,"text":"而面對兒少教練的問題下一張我認為修法跟有效增能必須要雙管齊下所以在去年我們辦公室也積極要求彰實教育部體育署要開相關的兒少職能課程我不確定這樣的課程成效是什麼但我很感謝至少有走出第一步我希望後續在運動部要持續甚至要昇華下一張我談了這麼多我覺得大家應該可以感覺到我的憤怒跟痛心"},{"start":328.891,"end":350.784,"text":"如果過去體育署你們告訴我因為元額不夠預算不足那我不知道升格之後的運動部如何看待兒少政策這個是現在運動部的分工我們來看一下不管是運動部本部或是全民運動署本署完全看不到有對應兒少的運動政策我要問請問兒少運動政策對應的相關組織到底在哪裡"},{"start":352.202,"end":367.275,"text":"如果還要繼續用體育署過去那個時代在面對所謂不適任教練的態度繼續放在運動部裡面我不知道除了我剛列舉的那些案件之外我們還會有多少兒少受害然後繼續用個案繼續縱容繼續申請放下青青老師"},{"start":373.567,"end":401.244,"text":"講到這麼多不適任教練的問題喔這件事情我要公開說我們辦公室開過非常多次會議我們把體育署跟法務部找來一起我們問法務部如果用政府資訊公開法的邏輯對於我剛說的那些教練可不可以基於社會公益公告這些被撤銷教練證的人的名單也就是所謂負面表列這件事情這個體育署的法規會說不行啦委員這有個資的問題"},{"start":402.878,"end":423.941,"text":"可是法務部都已經明函寫了基於社會公益可以政府資訊公開但體育署依然置之不理我要問運動部你們接下來如何看這個問題所有因為相關不當對待體罰性犯件的相關案件的不適任教練名單到底要不要公開你們只是為了保障大人的工作權嗎"},{"start":425.542,"end":453.821,"text":"當全民運動署接下來可能每年有非常多預算要去指引全民運動的現場有非常多不知道發生過什麼事情的教練就在現場每天跟我們的孩子相處在一起請問運動部要繼續縱容嗎所以我不知道會不會是同一批法規委員繼續從體育署到了運動部去而法規委員你們還要用一樣的解釋嗎法務部都已經告訴過你們了法務部也有給之前的體育署相關函文"},{"start":455.345,"end":478.568,"text":"非常沉痛 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標案金額高達2兆1501億"},{"start":1626.613,"end":1643.688,"text":"成為重大工程有力的後盾並同步推動企業服務廉政平台協力企業釐清法規界限減少舞弊風險那各檢察機關指揮廉政署調查局積極偵辦國營事業貪圖案件廉政署從109至今偵辦國營事業貪圖案件20案涉案人數99人"},{"start":1648.152,"end":1676.528,"text":"貪污不法金額6500多萬元調查局自110年受理到目前只受理415件移送118件起訴了61件移送案件主要集中在中油 台電 自來水等國營事業移送罪名主要是政府採購法 貪污及詐欺等罪那有關中油三件案是有涉及及符號工程款項呢這個檢查機關已經依法分案偵辦"},{"start":1677.529,"end":1706.583,"text":"那本部不介入不干預具體的個案支持檢察官依法獨立辦案秉持客觀中立勿枉勿縱徹底釐清事實本部將持續精進各項連任作為整合查辦局預防資源情話跨機關的合作打造從源頭防灘監控過程事後查辦的完整網絡為公共建設與設備發展進入穩固的法治誠信的一個基礎以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":1708.902,"end":1725.549,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我們就先確定議事錄請問各位那上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏好 如果沒有的話那麼我們就議事錄確定好 那麼接下來我們再請法務部調查局陳局長"},{"start":1732.365,"end":1746.702,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪毒案件查處成效進行專題報告請提出報告如次進行指教"},{"start":1748.003,"end":1767.341,"text":"國營事業掌握龐大的公共資源所以如果發生不法的弊端常常是引起社會高度的矚目雖然民國94年修正刑法公務員的定義將國營事業人員排除在刑法第十條第一項第一款前段的身份公務員但是依據政府採購法"},{"start":1768.502,"end":1780.112,"text":"辦理採購的時候其這個承辦跟監辦的人員仍然視為刑法上的授權公務員因此本局仍然將這一類列為我們貪毒案件的偵辦的對象"},{"start":1781.843,"end":1810.03,"text":"那另外廠商在參標國營事業辦理政府採購法案件的時候如果是涉犯到該法的犯罪因為這一類的犯罪經常是貪圖案件的前期行為那因此本局也將它列為我們偵辦貪圖案件的一個類型那其次報告近年國營事業貪圖案件查處的成效那統計110年到114年我們總共移送了有118案那目前起訴了有61案"},{"start":1812.403,"end":1841.622,"text":"那移送的这个法条主要是以违反政府采购法是诈诉违标类型是最多那其次是贪污之罪条例收贿跟诈取财物的次之那刑法诈欺罪的再次之那本局落实查处的作为第一点是落实辖区经营积极来发掘这个贪毒的线索那如果一经发掘到有不法我们会立刻启动调查报请检察官指挥来依法来侦办"},{"start":1842.262,"end":1861.282,"text":"那第二點是強化這個偵辦的能量精進我們的偵查的技巧那積極來收證偵辦有關這個國營事業人員的這個貪圖的案件來達到嚇阻犯罪的效果那第三點是加強這個廉政的宣導尤其是宣導公益階幣者保護法"},{"start":1861.843,"end":1880.574,"text":"那第四點有關中油三接福報工程款的爭議本局在114年8月的時候有接到檢舉那我們馬上就啟動了調查也細數檢察官在指揮偵辦中那結與本局外勤受理檢舉不法的案件一定會積極的來調查依法"},{"start":1883.296,"end":1897.185,"text":"來以行政中立依法來調查然後已經查獲到不法的事證一定會積極的偵辦那證據到哪裡我們就辦到哪裡以嚴懲不法以上報告敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝局長那麼我們接下來再請經濟部的何次長"},{"start":1911.824,"end":1927.755,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生感謝貴委員會對本部各項業務的協助與指教本部緊就中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪圖案件查處的成效提出專案報告"},{"start":1929.524,"end":1948.973,"text":"本部所屬的事業新辦重大工程的建設是為了確保工程專業性效率以及品質得依政府採購法相關的規定委託廠商提供技術服務包括與技術有關的可行性研究規劃 設計 建造 專案管理等有關媒體報導第三接收站二期"},{"start":1949.873,"end":1979.273,"text":"中油公司系依據前接政府採購法相關的程序及規定選定國內知名且具海事工程專業技術服務豐富經驗的台灣世西辦理相關的設計預算以及招標文件的編列依照政府採購法相關的規定本部所屬的事業辦理相關工程的採購在採購公告之前應辦理公開閱覽的程序公開化透明化藉由公開徵求廠商或民眾的意見"},{"start":1980.333,"end":1997.662,"text":"來提升公共工程的這個規劃品質反映公眾意見後完成招標文件的編訂於公告前依照政府採購法成立採購評選委員會審定招標文件中的評選項目評選的標準以及評定後方式之後方辦理"},{"start":1998.482,"end":2022.964,"text":"正式的公告 中油公司本次的採購程序 藉由上開的政府採購法相關的規定來執行過程中並沒有任何的廠商向中油或公共工程委員會提出異議申訴本案113年就有接獲檢舉 經過政風單位的調查並未發現不法的情勢這次媒體所稱有錄音檔 新市政本部會再啟動調查"},{"start":2024.165,"end":2046.788,"text":"也會全力配合檢調進行查證近三年來本部國營事業政風單位主動發掘疑涉貪圖不法線索經司法偵辦後起訴的案件包括緩起訴偵查後改以一般不法起訴的案件總共12案包括今年度起訴重大社會矚目的案件"},{"start":2047.87,"end":2066.211,"text":"台電公司合二廠林口電廠徵信及租信廠廠長的收賄案以及中油公司油品行銷事業部高雄營業處的鄭姓前組長涉嫌收賄收賄案以上報告經營指教敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2068.151,"end":2082.56,"text":"好 謝謝次長那麼我們待會在中油的董事長方董事長報告完之後我還想再多邀請公共工程委員會的副主委然後也來幫我們報告一下好 謝謝那接下來就先請方董事長"},{"start":2092.379,"end":2117.06,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天的承蒙委員會邀請中油公司就中油三接福報工程爭議款以及近年來國營失業貪圖案件查處成效進行專案報告以下就做中油公司的業務部分提出報告我想首先在福報工程款爭議的說明我要先說明工程的背景"},{"start":2118.141,"end":2135.63,"text":"中原公司是配合供應台電大潭電廠所需要新增發電基礎所需要的天然氣的需求以及北部地區民生工業用以及燃氣發電廠新增的天然氣需求所以編列了第三座液化天然氣接收站的一個投資計畫"},{"start":2137.717,"end":2153.107,"text":"這個計畫在原編的時候是規劃了五項主體工程包括建港及圍堤造地工程、棧橋工程、氣化工程、除潮工程以及路管及配棄站工程投資總額是661億元這個計畫在108年的9月 奉行政院來核定"},{"start":2160.251,"end":2186.902,"text":"那麼行政院後來在110年宣布了外推方案所以在這個觀塘工業港的部分必須往外海移455公尺因此在這個外擴防波堤的部分它必須要重新設計包括了防波堤結構的基礎以及整體配置都需要做調整那麼因此新增加了三項的主體工程"},{"start":2187.702,"end":2197.431,"text":"包括了外貼方案的外擴防波堤的一個新建工程以及棧橋延伸段的工程還有製程設備及管線工程投資總額調整為965億"},{"start":2202.574,"end":2217.102,"text":"那麼這個計畫也在111年的3月21號奉行這院核定至於媒體報導所謂第三接收站的二期這個是指的外推方案的外擴防波堤的興建工程"},{"start":2218.322,"end":2242.545,"text":"那麼這個三接投資計畫原規劃的防波堤工程是由建港及維提造地的標案來執行但是為了因應外推方案所以原環平核准範圍內的碼頭碼頭後線以及部分防波堤還沒有調整的部分就繼續施作但是因為外推方案所需要重新調整的部分"},{"start":2243.386,"end":2260.326,"text":"就要等待外推方案的還差通過以後才能夠施作也就是我們今天所講的這個主題我報告主席因為我想中油公司對於這個事情我需要多一點時間來做個說明可不可以允許我長一點好"},{"start":2261.175,"end":2279.647,"text":"那麼原建港集會提造工程它有相關的一些工程事項最重要的就是防波體長度是3351公尺它的水深是在-15米水深以內它的沉箱基礎的泡放是60萬方的一個基礎飼料"},{"start":2280.928,"end":2308.74,"text":"那麼這個案子的工程它相對水比較深那麼它在-20公尺到-29公尺而且它離岸有1.2公里所需要的基礎拋石料是160萬方所以在這樣一個工程它的施工的水益比較深施工難度也比較高所以這兩個案子施工的內容 量體 難度發包的時間都有所不同"},{"start":2309.6,"end":2331.629,"text":"所以工程要去做一個成本上的比較事實上很難去類比這個案子的預算的編列是委託台灣世西顧問公司來辦理台灣世西公司經過細部設計以後就所有的工料以及機具他會去做盤點"},{"start":2334.289,"end":2353.644,"text":"之後他就做出了一個建議的預算同時他也把一些大宗物料去詢問廠商他們對大宗物料的一些看法最後他提出來了一個本案的預算是238.4億億元交給中油公司來辦理公開越南"},{"start":2360.017,"end":2370.247,"text":"那麼在公開閱覽的期間 廠商有幾點的肆意同時台灣世新也向國內的三個廠商去詢價那麼詢價的結果 東批公司是報256.5億元紅華公司是239.6億元黃昌團隊是報價269億元"},{"start":2384.421,"end":2402.457,"text":"因此在這幾個數據綜合判斷以後提出了最後的預算總額是253.1億元中央公司根據這樣台灣市區的一個建議我們當然也去做一些內部的一個核算認為它的所建議的253億是合理的"},{"start":2408.018,"end":2421.093,"text":"那麼對於近日的媒體報導中央公司也立即調解了相關的一個資料以及採購文件那麼本案工程預算編列的過程中並沒有媒體報導百億暴增至253億元變動四次的一個情形"},{"start":2424.946,"end":2448.65,"text":"那麼接下來在公司內部的請購跟採購程序來講的話那公司當邊也經過一個董事會的同意之後呢 核定了這個253億接下來的再採購的程序那也進行開始發包那麼經過了兩次的一個開標呢最後是在第二次開標以後呢那麼由 決定是由黃昌這個團隊來得標那麼在這個"},{"start":2454.075,"end":2460.863,"text":"這個投標的過程中只有兩家來投標那麼這兩家廠商它分別投的報價是東批公司是252.7億那麼黃昌團隊是253億"},{"start":2470.345,"end":2498.782,"text":"接下來對於公安的部分以及工程品質的部分我想就書面資料請各位委員來參考最後我做個結議本案是委託國內知名的專業廠商台灣司機來辦理設計預算編列以及招標文件的製作經過它的內部的核算以及再次向國內廠商詢價終成評估以後本案招標預算是合理的"},{"start":2499.744,"end":2506.235,"text":"那麼接下來中油公司依照政府採購法公告前辦理公開閱覽同時也經過董事會通過預算編的過程中並沒有媒體所報導的一個"},{"start":2513.244,"end":2541.092,"text":"從百億暴增到253億變動四次的一個情形那麼至於媒體報導錄影檔中涉及中油公司必失的這個部分中油公司已經啟動行政調查作為那麼並將全力配合司法機關的釐清案情對於有惡意損害中油公司聲譽的行為也將採取適當的法律途徑來維護中油公司的聲譽以及權益那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員指正謝謝"},{"start":2544.061,"end":2547.674,"text":"好 謝謝方董事長那我們接下來請公共工程委員會的陳副主委"},{"start":2555.2,"end":2576.493,"text":"主席 各位委員大家好今天從某國委員會邀請本會就今天的議題提出專案的報告我底下請就中油三接相關工程的審議招標跟禮約的查核的部分提出報告 請各位委員不認執照"},{"start":2577.734,"end":2593.768,"text":"那麼我們現在在講的有關中油三接的這個計畫大概分為兩期的投資目前媒體報告的大概是針對第一期的投資那這個第一期的投資是行政院在104年9月4號核定的最後的總經費是965.62億元"},{"start":2598.132,"end":2622.082,"text":"那第二期的投資計畫是為了要提升這個卸收儲存及運輸的能力那目前還在國發會這個審查當中那麼有關國營事業投資新興公共工程及房屋建築的計畫那麼依照這個政府公共工程計畫以經費審議作業要點的規定"},{"start":2626.263,"end":2649.631,"text":"這個無需送工程會來審核是由這個主管的部會自行來審理那麼有關報宅的這個所謂外推防波堤的工程的這個招標那麼依照我們看到的這個文件是在111年4月29號辦理第一次的公開招標"},{"start":2651.272,"end":2669.111,"text":"第一次因為未達三家流標後來中油在111年6月29號辦理第二次招標最後是由黃昌營造跟幻亞工程共同得標"},{"start":2672.126,"end":2688.821,"text":"我們查了一下有關第一期三接的工程大概總共有八件其中有六件已經申報竣工本案相關的黃坡堤外推黃坡堤的工程目前還在施工當中"},{"start":2690.912,"end":2705.296,"text":"其餘的一件工程有達到99.99%有關本件的外推防波堤的部分目前的進度是75.52%進度是超前16.52%經濟部跟本會總共曾經查核三次"},{"start":2713.098,"end":2736.138,"text":"那麼查核的分數大概維持在80到81分之間大概屬於比較正常的一個那因為上禮拜在交通委員會那麼也討論過這個案子我們會在兩個月內啟動啟動這個集合那如果有任何的結論我們再向貴委員提出報告謝謝 以上"},{"start":2738.331,"end":2756.712,"text":"好 謝謝陳副主委那接下來我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時候得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並且不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們首先先請第一位的黃國昌委員"},{"start":2770.483,"end":2789.976,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長經濟部的市長以及中友的董事長委員長三位早 時間的關係先請教一下中友董事長中友在108年到109年的時候負債比有多高"},{"start":2795.418,"end":2796.841,"text":"當時大概在50%到60%之間當時是60%嗎現在負債比有多高現在負債比到達93%"},{"start":2804.622,"end":2829.504,"text":"到達93%嘛一個93%的財務結構我必須要說從財務的觀點這家國營事業令人捏把冷汗負債比93%是什麼概念我相信念財務工程的人大家心裡都有數但問題是我們從中油實際上面的表現看不出來中油的財務狀況很糟糕"},{"start":2832.049,"end":2845.803,"text":"從實際上面的狀況我們看出來的是中油很有錢中油超級有錢花錢的方式完全不像一個負債比從幾年前60%"},{"start":2847.952,"end":2877.107,"text":"到現在最近已經高達93%的公司我為什麼這樣講 我們從頭開始看2022年中油貪污的弊案你們在今天的書面報告裡面是輕描淡寫的寫了徐漢兩個字相關的案子只有徐漢嗎只有徐漢嗎我在PVP上面全部都列出來了不是只有列油事業部的執行長徐漢還包括你們的工程師"},{"start":2879.235,"end":2907.417,"text":"儲運科前董事煉製事業部全部都淪陷導致檢察官在起訴書上面寫什麼中油貪腐結構根深蒂固中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固這八個字不是我說的是檢察官在起訴書裡面說的檢察官認為中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固董事長認不認同"},{"start":2909.937,"end":2936.274,"text":"這個部分我想我不能完全認同不能完全認同這個絕對不是結構性的問題你要去告北檢妨礙名譽嗎這應該是個案這是個案嘛所以檢察官這樣寫你覺得你沒有辦法認同嗎我沒辦法認同好沒有關係我們繼續往下看這次的這個案子羅志強委員他追得很辛苦那我看羅委員出來追啊"},{"start":2937.472,"end":2950.911,"text":"我也要看一下到底發生什麼事中有液化天然氣而去接收站我們就一般就稱為三接本來規劃五項主體工程660億這個沒有錯吧這個沒錯"},{"start":2954.551,"end":2981.158,"text":"那後來呢因為藻礁的爭議所以你們推出了外三階的方案嘛往外再延伸嘛新增三項工程嘛新增這三項工程包括棧橋延伸包括外鍋防波堤包括製程設備及管線工程這個也沒錯嘛這個也沒錯然後時程增加2.5年嘛好那我現在就看了我就看不懂"},{"start":2982.673,"end":3003.79,"text":"2021年5月我們行政院宣布中游三接外推方案預算增加150億只有150億嗎只有150億嗎剛剛提到計畫預算是增加大約是300對 這個就是我今天要質詢的第一個point我們的行政院在幹嘛搞大內宣啊"},{"start":3004.833,"end":3016.287,"text":"欺騙國人啦當初行政院是行政院院會耶王美花自己出來宣布耶增加只有150億耶怎麼後來會變成增加300多億這個是發生什麼事"},{"start":3021.088,"end":3045.535,"text":"委員我可以做個說明嗎是請說這個部分講的150億是講說這個直接工程的部分150億但是在編列預算的時候還要考慮其他的因素譬如說在工程試作期間有沒有誤調的問題我這樣講好了啦納稅人關心的就是這樣搞要多花多少錢嘛還有在你們這邊解釋來解釋去啊"},{"start":3049.927,"end":3072.827,"text":"150億是直接工程然後其他的是其他的那行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義這150億啊你仔細看啊這還不是只有行政院院會宣布啊來你看這個表三接迴避替代修正方案與外推方案之比較這個表你有看到嗎"},{"start":3074.124,"end":3080.837,"text":"呃有有這個表是你們中油做的沒錯吧是是來你看下面預算增加多少錢150億啊這也是你們中油寫的啊"},{"start":3086.769,"end":3103.631,"text":"是沒錯 但是你看這些項目指的都是直接工程我剛剛講的就是說直接工程是150億沒關係啦 今天第一件事以後請你們中油跟行政院包括經濟部對納稅人說明的時候講清楚啦300多億就300多億"},{"start":3107.316,"end":3129.97,"text":"寫個150億 等到我去發預算書的時候發現根本不是150億在東解釋西解釋的 納稅人關心的是什麼關心你多花多少錢嘛 我講的對不對對 以後我們改好 多編300多億是什麼時候編的 預算最後通過是111年的3月份"},{"start":3131.162,"end":3154.701,"text":"預算是什麼時候編的計畫本身965是111年的對我問你預算什麼時候編的你指的是工程本身的發包預算不是啦要經過立法院審核通過的預算我們是立法院嘛你們編預算嘛我們審嘛審了通過了以後你們下去執行嘛正常的民主國家不是這樣嗎這預算什麼時候編的"},{"start":3161.016,"end":3187.473,"text":"965億這個部分是修正計畫的項目是預算什麼時候編的就是111年的3月份行政院核定是預算什麼時候編的我們應該是在110年會去做這個計畫修正然後報經濟部對不起你還是沒有回答我的問題預算什麼時候編的您是指原始預算嗎不是修正過要增加300多億的預算什麼時候編到預算書裡面送到立法院來審核"},{"start":3190.404,"end":3211.295,"text":"不知道應該是會在111年的預算書上會去揭露好來看你們實際上預算暴增305億這個我剛講過了所以發生這件事情我就回去看預算書啊我每一年的預算書都對啊來我對出來了我直接給董事長看"},{"start":3212.694,"end":3242.048,"text":"你們是111年喔立法院審核通過的預算書喔都還是原來的金額660億的金額 你有沒有看到有看到這個是立法院審核通過的你們什麼時候預算書開始多300多億啊到965億是112年才出來的112年的預算書才編的啊你看到沒有我看到了那我現在就搞不懂啊"},{"start":3243.495,"end":3270.972,"text":"300多億你們是到112年的預算書才呈現那請問現在有關於真正大家在爭議的那個外推的工程是什麼時候決標的111年的7月那我現在問題就來了你的預算還沒有送到立法院來立法院還沒有審通過立法院審不審對你們來講沒有差"},{"start":3273.991,"end":3284.921,"text":"我反正就決標下去啦連預算都沒有就可以辦決標我看不懂啊所以現在立法院在審國營事業的預算是形同劇文嗎是形同劇文嗎報告委員"},{"start":3291.929,"end":3315.275,"text":"就我的認知的話 就是在修正計畫的部分對 修正計畫是你們行政院的事嘛好 那我現在的問題來了在一個民主法治國家當中是行政院編預算就可以花錢還是立法院要通過預算才能夠花錢這是我的問題如果行政院編預算就可以花錢不用立法院審核通過"},{"start":3316.806,"end":3322.736,"text":"那立法院廢掉算啦我們省什麼預算啦所有的立委在這邊省心酸的"},{"start":3325.509,"end":3348.389,"text":"立法院有同意這個計畫嗎新興計畫本身是已經同意了是誰同意的我說原始的計畫是行政院對嘛 原始計畫不是660億嗎那個是立法院也同意的是 沒錯所以立法院同意你用660億我一點問題都沒有但是後續的修正計畫的話目前在行政院的部分是何準我們先行動之啊"},{"start":3349.301,"end":3377.51,"text":"對嘛 這個就是我現在的問題嘛在我們現在的預算制度裡面反正行政院最大行政院編了立法院還沒有審核我就直接先幹了嘛我有說錯嗎那我的問題來啦我們的立法院審國營事業的計畫是要做什麼因為整個我看到的啊叫做從立法院的觀點來看我跟董事長報告我看到什麼先設建後化吧"},{"start":3378.723,"end":3391.133,"text":"先設建後化吧我行政院預算膨脹啦本來告訴社會大眾150億後來變成365億後來誇張到365億都還沒有送到立法院來審核我連決標都做好啦我國的預算制度到底出了什麼問題啊讓你們這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":3408.956,"end":3421.023,"text":"我們立法院到底在省什麼預算啊我錢要花就花啦你們這些立法委員橡皮圖章而已啊我行政部門就是要先設建再畫吧150億到365億更離譜的是365億連預算立法院都還沒有省我已經絕標啦預算到2023年的時候才編"},{"start":3439.864,"end":3463.737,"text":"但是我2022年絕標啦請問要立法院審這樣的預算有何意義立法院可以不同意嗎到時候你們說 報告委員不好意思喔你們雖然還沒有通過預算啦我們中友早就絕標要做這件事啦可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":3465.868,"end":3492.358,"text":"可以這樣幹嗎還是你們覺得按照我國現行的預算制度中油這樣幹剛剛好而已 是這樣嗎我想報告委員中油公司的所謂預算跟執行都依照現有的制度來去執行對啊 但我現在就挑戰嘛你們根本沒有按照現有的制度啊我事情都還沒有說完啊我看你們啊 暴增305億我想要看裡面的項目"},{"start":3493.41,"end":3521.056,"text":"到底是什麼項目要花多少錢305億那個在旁邊搖耳朵的你有話要講直接上來回答你先等一下報徵305億中油的預算書長這個樣子來我請教一下董事長如果你今天當立法委員你要怎麼審這個預算只有數字我有一個計畫的目的我有一個計畫的內容我有一個投資的總額"},{"start":3522.904,"end":3550.525,"text":"全部的字數加起來不超過100個字然後我看到的數字是多了365億這個是把立法委員當什麼你要不然就是把我們當神仙我們是神仙啊終有什麼 什麼都不用提供100個字之內概述計畫內容多365億我們是神仙要知道裡面的細部"},{"start":3551.533,"end":3568.008,"text":"到底合理不合理那要不然呢這些立委全部上班的時候都在混都在打瞌睡都在閉著眼睛審預算是誰教你們預算書寫成這個樣子的啊這樣是要立法院怎麼審"},{"start":3570.822,"end":3595.382,"text":"我想現在我們在這個文書報表所呈現都是一些標準的格式沒有關係啊 是誰訂的標準立法院訂的標準嗎還是行政院訂的標準沒有關係啊 過往的陋習我為什麼今天挑這個題目直接切進來是不是有弊案讓檢調去調查我光從立法院該監督的錢怎麼給你們的"},{"start":3599.194,"end":3618.067,"text":"計劃經費怎麼暴增的預算怎麼審核的預算還沒有過以前你們都已經絕標啦在民主國家當中這種預算制度如果按照董事長所講這是正常的話我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我國的預算制度"},{"start":3620.046,"end":3644.258,"text":"我再說一次如果按照你們所說的這樣子做是正常的我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我們的預算制度但我看到的是什麼我看到的是叫做先設建後劃把先設建後劃把立法院預算都還沒有通過你們絕標都已經辦了甚至你們絕標的金額那三項工程加起來多少錢董事長知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":3645.563,"end":3674.104,"text":"三項工程嘛本來宣布一百五十億後來邊預算邊到增加到三百零五億最後那三項工程花多少錢三百三十億左右來 我算出來了三百四十三億你們也是很厲害先設限再劃吧就算了過的增加的預算是三百零五億三項工程來我報給你聽哈前面"},{"start":3675.529,"end":3703.689,"text":"在111年 預算還沒有通過喔我再強調 預算還沒有通過喔111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程東坯營造 經務大工程就先絕標了 20億就是這一次 那個外接方案沒有得標的廠商嘛 就他們嘛我看了也很狐疑 原來就是這一億兩家廠商在那邊吵 到底該你的還該我的"},{"start":3704.71,"end":3706.271,"text":"111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程20億111年7月29號 黃昌營造253億"},{"start":3716.82,"end":3740.347,"text":"後來呢 外國防波興建工程做契約變更 再追加2840萬給他第三個 製程設計與管線統包工程這是第三項工程嘛第三項工程69億加起來343億作為一個立委 現在我就看不懂了我們給你們的預算我們同意增加305億結果你們決標可以決標到343億"},{"start":3747.289,"end":3749.578,"text":"這個是怎麼回事可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":3750.718,"end":3779.33,"text":"就是剛剛我跟委員所報告的直接工程150億但是這個計畫本身編列預算還有其他的像是對啊 就到965億啊對對對那所以相差多少 305億嘛這裡面就是說我們會去籌備一些物調的一個所以你的意思是什麼自己從別的項目挪用過來嗎對對對 還有工程準備我的老天啊就其他的項目我再講一次我痛恨你們這種"},{"start":3782.421,"end":3803.795,"text":"用含糊其詞的方式在欺騙國人本來給你們660億追加到965億 多了305億立法院還沒有審通過你們就絕標了 膽大包天第二個 更扯的是什麼算出來的何止305億 343億"},{"start":3809.813,"end":3829.078,"text":"中油為什麼負債比現在高達93% 中油很有錢啊預算還沒有過 直接先絕標 絕標下去本來多三項工程305億從我們前面詢答的過程當中 我講得非常清楚了150億到305億 最後花343億 343億"},{"start":3838.413,"end":3862.691,"text":"中友怎麼能不虧 出手大方啊 大方的不得了啊稍微 今天既然排這個專案報告因為中友他前面所編的那305億 細項到底是什麼大家根本都不知道 這個是第一件事情第二件事情 編預算編305億他們自己知道的絕標喔 就已經343億了"},{"start":3865.034,"end":3879.551,"text":"中油到底錢怎麼花的到底錢怎麼花的從哪些項目又多挪了三十幾億來搞這個三接是不是可以請召委等一下才是會後看這個禮拜禮拜五以前"},{"start":3880.672,"end":3898.047,"text":"是不是把所有的細項資料都交到司法法治委員會來這樣我們排這個專案報告才有意義嘛那要不然中央的董事長在上面問他的問題他也沒有辦法回答其他的細的項目我們也沒有辦法看得到是不是等一下請麻煩召委裁示一下"},{"start":3899.813,"end":3922.694,"text":"我想請中郵待會依照黃委員的意見然後將你們採購的細項的一些說明書在星期五下班之前提供給我們司法法治委員剛剛我的問題很具體嘛你聽得懂嗎沒有含糊涼"},{"start":3924.215,"end":3943.931,"text":"絕對沒有含糊其詩的地方了嘛兩個重點 第一個細項第二個呢 超過150億的部分這些預算是從計畫裡面哪個項目是 從哪個地方挪過來的那要不然我覺得立法院在審預算根本是在審耍寶的還是在審辛酸的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員好 那謝謝董事長那就請你們星期五之前要交下班之前交好 那接下來我們請"},{"start":3954.404,"end":3955.585,"text":"羅志強委員發言有請法務部調查局經濟部交通部然後廉政署以及中油董事長麻煩請相關單位的長官列席 謝謝"},{"start":3985.538,"end":3986.899,"text":"先請中央董事長委員長我先問你三個非常簡單的問題來 請你告訴我第一個 什麼時候告《金週刊》目前呢 我們公司內部在啟動我再問你一次 什麼時候告《金週刊》目前沒有 我覺得現在目前沒有啊 你的報告怎麼寫的你說這些所有都不實報導不是嗎"},{"start":4011.618,"end":4029.372,"text":"我們講的意思就是說現在重點我們要啟動內部的行政調查你看你迴避 心虛嘛我直接講結論啦你報告不用寫了啦還想那麼正正有詞不實你就要告 報告是不是這樣寫"},{"start":4030.981,"end":4046.652,"text":"第一個就是說我問你嘛 你有沒有看報告不會報告出來你都沒看吧我講的意思就是說行政調查同時我們要配合檢調單位的一個調查結果董事長你光第一個問題就答不出來連報告自己怎麼寫都不知道"},{"start":4047.762,"end":4075.629,"text":"裡面就說只要是不實報道你們會提出告訴是 只要是不實對啊那請問你現在進週刊所以你沒有要告嘛那進週刊叫報道就屬實啦我告訴你 我直接告訴你你要告的還不只是進週刊報道你的三接二期的弊案今天進週刊又加碼爆料你的三接一期都有問題兩單一起告啦 好不好"},{"start":4077.506,"end":4091.387,"text":"不 答不出來 任5秒問第二個問題 來錄音檔內的業者是不是東批公司是不是 告訴我目前不確定不確定啦來 部長 是不是東批公司"},{"start":4093.591,"end":4110.385,"text":"這部分已經剪掉臉我知道啦 謝謝部長休息休息 我知道你說個案不討論來 調查局局長是不是東批公司這個我就不方便說明我知道你一定答案一模一樣啦我告訴你們來 董事長上來我再問你是不是東批公司"},{"start":4111.104,"end":4128.227,"text":"目前不確定 不確定啊 非常好啊在我們資料上不確定我來去當 那個部長來去當調查局局長好了啦我幫你們來推估是不是東坯公司 來 我想請教一下最後齁 尋價結果齁 來 董事長黃昌說多少錢269億洪華說多少錢230餘億239億東坯說多少錢"},{"start":4143.33,"end":4161.595,"text":"256億來來來週刊的報導來告訴你是不是東批公司啊週刊報導說外界說這個工程94億就能做業者錄音帶業者說他提122億的價格你們中油高層豪氣說中油什麼都沒有欠啦錢最多啦"},{"start":4162.881,"end":4186.096,"text":"不缺錢啦然後等於是叫他繼續往上加他加了多少 150億還繼續被中油罵然後呢 加到220億再度被中油高層大罵中油高層罵我你這做頭家不會做頭路你都聽不懂你做什麼頭路囂張啊 這位中油高層非常囂張喔好 來"},{"start":4187.914,"end":4211.087,"text":"這個營造商抱怨啦 90幾億可以做第一次抱120億 他說太低 150億又被罵叫他抱高一點最後他報價 報到多少 周刊報導 報多少請問 報多少報給你們周郵多少 告訴我 周刊報導 有沒有看不會沒看吧我看了 我看了民意這麼重要 有看 來周刊報導 他報多少給你們"},{"start":4212.014,"end":4219.057,"text":"報告委員 從這個周刊的報導你告訴我 你給我數字你給我數字啊你不要迴避問題喔我問你這麼簡單的數字 最後報給你多少錢我講是周刊的報導周刊報導這個廠商報給你多少錢"},{"start":4235.356,"end":4241.68,"text":"告訴我答對了來請問你剛剛講東坯公司報多少錢我去當部長我去當局長一模一樣啦是不是東坯公司我再問你來請問來請教部長這麼清楚啊東坯公司要不要約談一下"},{"start":4262.559,"end":4281.921,"text":"個案不評論這部分我想那個辦案單位有他的偵查的一個規劃來請局長依常理啦不要跟著部長好不好來局長對你喜許甚深依常理我幫你推估到這種程度了直指東批公司"},{"start":4283.297,"end":4298.686,"text":"總要去約談一下吧了解一下吧謝謝委員的推估我們會參照委員的意見好謝謝你謝謝局長部長看一下局長起碼有誠意多了來我第三個問題要問你來第三個問題問你我想請教一下我們的董事長請問這中油高層這位總經理說中油不缺錢報告一點的總經理是不是你"},{"start":4310.948,"end":4333.675,"text":"報告委員 從這個周刊的報導 所謂總經理上面並沒有講中游非常好 你是指世襲嗎我不知道不是台灣世襲就是中游啊這個部分我不知道來來來 請教你 為什麼直接問你啊我給你呈現一個機會啦三接二期是哪一年招標的哪一年決標的都是在111年對啊 2022年6月29日招標8月2號決標嘛 對不對來 請問"},{"start":4339.878,"end":4349.843,"text":"董事長你那個時候在中油的職位是什麼我是111年4月12號升任總經理所以在4月12號之前我是副總經理"},{"start":4351.445,"end":4373.143,"text":"你說111年之前 升任總經理4月12號升任總經理就是你這個總經理啊 不是嗎這個事情應該是發生在請購預算核定階段前總經理啊 謝謝你 非常好非常好 總理長我真的佩服你啊原來是前總經理啊來來來 沒關係來 那個部長"},{"start":4380.305,"end":4406.696,"text":"人家都把總經理都講出來而且他直接跟你講是前總經理雖然招標的時候絕標的時候他是總經理可是他說前面的階段他不是總經理那應該前總經理的事情前總經理要不要約談一下來 個案尊重檢方這個我想有辦案單位來做一個好 非常謝謝那我再提示一下提示一下我們局長我給你第二個名字對你多好對 給你第二個人"},{"start":4407.815,"end":4433.564,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員我不直接直接問你回答因為你回答可能也要跟部長一樣偵查不公開我們都會參考 謝謝謝謝你參考謝謝 謝謝委員兩個單位給你了來我再請教你第三個我想請問第三個單位要跟你講我看你們報告一直在講什麼台灣四溪對不對來 總市長請是 沒錯台灣四溪"},{"start":4435.188,"end":4464.671,"text":"那我跟局長直接說啊所有的那些報價的過程當中台灣世襲證據一定在台灣世襲嘛台灣世襲我們現在董事長是誰鄭雲鵬啊鄭雲鵬7月才接我先幫他講啦這事跟他沒關係啦可是他是董事長就我所知崔少哲也有去跟台灣世襲那邊所以請鄭雲鵬也來好好瞭解一下"},{"start":4465.906,"end":4489.424,"text":"我今天給你三個名字我最後回頭說 我要跟大家講我不認為週刊報導是空穴來風你看週刊報導多好256億寫的清淨數今天如果說你給三家公司尋價結果沒有256億這個數字那我覺得週刊胡說八道你給的三家公司有一家是256億就這麼清楚"},{"start":4493.971,"end":4521.471,"text":"那今天說真的那麼清楚啦檢方趕快要辦一辦那我再要請教我們的董事長剛剛我們的黃國昌委員說中油實在是檢察官說的中油公司貪腐結構根深蒂固你反對嘛你不認同嘛對不對不認同來來來好第一點來我想請教一下部長"},{"start":4523.166,"end":4523.806,"text":"請教部長我們偵辦從110年到114年國營事業貪賭案移送最多的公司 國營事業是哪一家"},{"start":4544.27,"end":4573.195,"text":"這部分我沒有資料那局長了解了 局長給的資料吧哪一家移送最多中油比較多中油比較多 謝謝局長謝謝 謝謝董事長你中油當然了不起啊 第一名啊那麼多國營事業公司你被移送第一名啊你驕傲啊黃國昌剛還是引用檢方的說法你不認同啊來 沒關係 你不認同來 我再問你一個數字"},{"start":4574.963,"end":4602.643,"text":"今天我要把一句句話念給你聽離譜到什麼程度到現在還不敢跟我講你到底要告不告中油什麼都不欠 錢最多都不欠錢周刊報導啊中油欠不欠錢中油來講目前負債比很高你也知道啊 你也知道啊過去五年啊 賠了三千億"},{"start":4604.777,"end":4618.731,"text":"錢最多 錢賠最多啦為什麼會賠那麼多報告如果屬實三兆你都賠不完隨便一個工程一家150億還去罵廠商報價報太低了來給你反駁啊"},{"start":4629.775,"end":4657.191,"text":"那麼過去三年中油公司負債比從60%提高到93%最最主要的原因在這過去三年裡面中油公司承擔了在國內物價的一個好率謝謝你的回答啦我告訴你最最主要原因承擔物價最最重要原因就是福報工程價格週刊報導的承擔物價這是國家政策我不怪你"},{"start":4659.141,"end":4687.355,"text":"可是今天嚴重到這種程度結果到現在為止你還是不敢講你告不告週刊我告訴你就心虛週刊報的就是真的我相信週刊我真是相信金週刊啊對啊你也相信啊所以你不敢告啊他還不只告你不只講中三階二期啊他今天爆料三階一期也有問題啊中友還在說沒有貪腐沒有貪腐結構沒有根深蒂固"},{"start":4688.598,"end":4700.261,"text":"你拿什麼說服力告訴大家賠三千億怎麼賠就你偉大的中游啊但今天我對總經理有一句話講得最好我本來今天就要好好來質疑你"},{"start":4702.021,"end":4719.769,"text":"我們要請你要自行調查就你跟我講 你的答案我接受你說抱歉 絕標招標你是總經理但是所有事情完成是在絕標招標之前那不關你的事 那是前總經理所以爆料裡面的總經理不是你這個我聽起來有道理 我覺得有道理"},{"start":4721.547,"end":4732.883,"text":"可是今天中油根深蒂固的腐爛你董事長與有責焉啊那為什麼你直接告訴董事長既然是前總經理的事情不要包庇啊該辦就辦鐵碗斷然的去辦"},{"start":4738.373,"end":4760.739,"text":"可以嗎我們還是要就這個事情他是不是有這樣的一個情形要把它弄清楚謝謝 弄清楚你剛剛不是講弄清楚就是沒這個事我們現在重啟調查因為現在有新市政了包括這個錄音檔所以你現在也不確定有沒有事很好啊你有自我懷疑精神我謝謝你今天中油自己都開始懷疑自己好事情"},{"start":4763.833,"end":4789.786,"text":"請法務部聯政署調查局好好幫助你來驗證你的自我懷疑正不正確 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝主席我們麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部"},{"start":4799.854,"end":4815.066,"text":"先請教工程會我看一下上週的預告修正的政府採購法那我看到的是要刪除三加比較限制的條款那目的是為了提升效率還有鬆綁基層採購的壓力是不是這樣"},{"start":4816.887,"end":4836.018,"text":"報告委員 那麼原則上是往這個方向但是我們現在看到的就是因為民進黨長期執政之下其實有一個東西已經被台灣大多數人所公認就是民進黨執政之下其實圖利瓜分這個國家的財產變成是一個日常"},{"start":4837.179,"end":4858.286,"text":"那連今天經濟部的報告都說要會全程依法公開 程序會嚴謹但是國營採購的弊案還是層出不窮就像今天那個中油的董事長說從對黃國昌的回應還有對於羅志強的回應你一直講一句話說你不認同他們的指控但是我今天要跟你講不要說剛剛那兩位立委的說法"},{"start":4859.506,"end":4888.027,"text":"調查局跟廉政署的報告都已經講得很清楚了他有提到說近五年來移送以中油最多台電次之所以剛剛那兩位委員的質疑是錯的嗎你說你不認同那你不認同就不認同但是今天調查局還有廉政署的報告已經認證了貴公司就是弊案最多遭移送對象最多的單位還是你要質疑他們兩位還是要告那兩個單位"},{"start":4889.209,"end":4902.803,"text":"不是 報告委員我剛剛所說的就是說這個貪腐它不是結構性都是個案那中油公司的話案件是比較多不是結構性的是個案那這個就不是不是弊案嗎"},{"start":4904.452,"end":4930.393,"text":"當然是個案啊那個案多了因為貴公司最多嘛我國的國營企業這麼多公部門這麼多但是貴公司目前是調查局的報告說得很清楚移送對象是中油最多對那這個你承認嗎這個我承認因為這是統計的結果既然有調查局的認證那我們也就不用再多爭論了所以我覺得今天我不是質疑單一個案我覺得"},{"start":4931.354,"end":4951.292,"text":"我們今天看到國營事業有很多的問題我先提出幾個問題第一個 預算支出可以無限的暴漲第二個 工地安全也被漠視第三個 肥貓酬庸它是無限的肥油然後工程採購無限的黑箱所以我今天看到這四個無限"},{"start":4952.54,"end":4975.662,"text":"一個是支出無限暴漲 公立安全無限的漠視肥貓酬庸可以無限的肥油工程採購可以無限的黑箱我今天看到狀況是這樣也不用跟我們說沒有因為這幾年確實國營事業讓大家質疑很多點包括今天我又看到一個新的現在不是三接有問題一二接現在也有事情要爆出來"},{"start":4976.323,"end":5005.512,"text":"那如果照這樣講原來綠能政策然後它所引起的必須要大量的燒天然氣後面原來有這些弊案一階 二階 三階如果都有弊案的話那到底我國的能源轉型是轉辛酸的嗎是轉到最後光電 綠電 風電一堆弊案現在連因為要搞綠電所引起的天然氣接收站也弊案連連那我就很懷疑說我們的政府他到底帶給我們人民是什麼"},{"start":5006.328,"end":5019.322,"text":"他當初告訴我說為了要搞綠能要留下最好的台灣給下一代結果現在看到是弊案連連山野光電板 海野光電板水庫野光電板 到處光電板然後"},{"start":5020.373,"end":5043.781,"text":"然後不知道在做什麼然後一堆弊案在裡面這怎麼對得起長期支持政府的這些選民所以我剛剛所說的我們今天看到很曾經穩定國家民生而且會賺錢的這些公司現在併入高峰的四大通病就我剛剛講的第一個預算的失控人民的納稅錢被當提款機"},{"start":5045.051,"end":5066.434,"text":"搞了一大堆追加預算一些有的沒有的搞出來第二個公安的漠視然後最近也有幾個案子有一些人命待會我會講第三個從酬庸就是一直塞人進去包括吳英寧等等的這些案子然後再來還有一個圖利舞弊從工程到招考有一大堆的問題包括之前的一些"},{"start":5067.435,"end":5086.245,"text":"招考的時候的電子舞弊的弊案所以我就不懂說國營事業怎麼會淪落到今天高層搞酬庸 低層搞電子舞弊來招生這不知道在搞什麼好 那我請問一下經濟部門中油預算的失控我想請問兩位中油的中油的這個"},{"start":5091.254,"end":5098.222,"text":"三階的工程款它是來自於與政府的增值那我請問一下這是不是政府這是人民的納稅錢或人民的資產請問是不是"},{"start":5100.057,"end":5128.301,"text":"當然從廣泛來講最終工程完工以後當然就是公司的資產同時也是國家的資產他就是全民的資產沒錯嘛 對不對那我跟你講我看到了就是2022年中油前執行長那個叫什麼 徐翰他被查出收費1687萬其實這還蠻離譜被封為最貪的公務員當時還起訴了蠻多人請問一下貴公司有沒有做什麼樣的改善"},{"start":5130.164,"end":5149.177,"text":"有 在當時對我去做了一個檢討我們要求所有的主管同仁都應該以此為戒那個不叫做改善我跟你講當時你們還發了一個新聞稿說法律是道德最低標準然後國營企業的什麼操守形象都不容打折"},{"start":5150.017,"end":5166.151,"text":"要求大家用更高調的標準來處理這個承辦的業務但是這沒有用啊搞到最後還是口號至上啊變成是口號的巨人但是實際上的侏儒啊我看到的狀況是這樣嘛那公安的問題終於你們公安的問題也是我剛剛提到了"},{"start":5167.572,"end":5195.76,"text":"2019年12月台北港的城鄉吊掛三死四傷然後呢今年7月那個桃園三街還有一個作業員溺斃啦其實這個都是嚴重的公安事情嘛那我覺得用人的問題非專業卡在重要的位置以及這些高層的貪腐其實跟公安絕對有一敵兩面的事情啦不是沒有關係所以我希望你們兩個月內交一個公安缺失還有改善的報告給市長法治委員會好不好"},{"start":5196.441,"end":5201.457,"text":"還要附上一些相關的資料這個請你務必做到那我想請問一下經濟部經濟部"},{"start":5204.887,"end":5227.289,"text":"我想除了中油之外台肥也是很多弊案包括前董事長康信宏任內的南港C2開發案讓公司損失幾億然後還有康信宏跟總經理黃耀新他們的福報差旅費還有台肥到大陸地區投資失敗的這些例子我想台肥也是一堆問題"},{"start":5228.951,"end":5241.105,"text":"台研也是啊綠能的成取益的問題對不對然後還有之前吳英寧的人事案的議題所以我覺得奇怪大家把國民世界當做自己的金庫嗎怎麼會搞成今天這樣那"},{"start":5244.754,"end":5266.708,"text":"國營事業現在變酬庸的一個位置然後內控都失能也都掏空才會有這麼多弊案所以我想麻煩你們一個月內能夠提一個國營事業的董事 總經理人事還有問責績效制度的改善方式不要每一次事件爆發都換個人而已好不好我們麻煩法務部長還有調查局局長"},{"start":5271.854,"end":5291.312,"text":"來 部長 我想請問一下之前國營事業 中油 中鋼 台電電子招考舞弊的問題你們後來有集合去查辦嗎這邊有查辦 這個是廉政署藍調組有來查辦那也麻煩廉政署這部分你們有沒有查辦"},{"start":5298.323,"end":5306.278,"text":"報告委員 這個部分都已經語重其數好 我跟你們講因為我剛剛所說的我們現在國民世界變什麼高層搞酬庸"},{"start":5307.352,"end":5335.74,"text":"對不對 綠油油跟選戰出力者高層搞酬庸 低層電子舞弊那難怪經濟上面也出問題公安也出問題嘛績效也出問題 弊案一大堆這都可以理解你從高層到低層都出了問題所以這個要麻煩你們能夠仔細的把它查清楚好不好那如果目前還有一些相關的相關的這種團體還在搞的話也要請你們積極的去做部長這部分有沒有辦法督促一下"},{"start":5337.232,"end":5357.518,"text":"這部分這是一個預防的作為因為已經有電子有一些的舞弊那些也都依法偵辦的偵辦的好像應該是有兩波後來這部分有督請國營事業這部分在招考新員工的時候必須要落實絕對要有防弊的一個作為"},{"start":5358.058,"end":5375.034,"text":"那這邊我如果說委員有需要的話我們請您證書來提供你們還是要資料給我因為我跟部長報告一下就我跟部長已經往來好幾次了那我只希望一個點我們發現問題麻煩你們要提出解決之道而且那解決之道要實際能做的而不是說"},{"start":5375.635,"end":5396.817,"text":"只是虛隱故事我們不會看不懂你是不是虛隱故事我跟你講而且不要說我每次跟你討論制度你就說這個是個案問題然後我跟你問個案然後你又說偵查不公開不然就說這個個案不予評論搞到最後都不用講了問制度也不用講問個案也不用講所以不能這樣子麻煩你們對於電子舞弊這個事情"},{"start":5397.458,"end":5419.559,"text":"能夠把你們後續的有沒有一些宣導或偵查的作為改善能夠怎麼加強偵查這塊能夠給我們一份報告好不好最後我想我自己個人我總共辦了11年的數貪我覺得我還是要提一個其實國營事業或政府機關會出事大概就是不拖國營機關採購會出事就那三樣"},{"start":5422.482,"end":5433.373,"text":"投標前設建在畫把投標中 執行中灌水之後沒有人負責大概就是主要這三個"},{"start":5435.095,"end":5461.57,"text":"價格常常都是先設建再化因為很多國營世界的採購不是靠市場競爭是靠關係所以先有想花的錢再用規格跟房價去把金額護航起來我想各位辦過數攤的現場的有連政署有之前的警察官有部長你們都知道我在講什麼那第二個招標看起來乾淨但是後面在灌水對不對你後面在變更設計追加預算展演供期驗收鬆綁然後呢"},{"start":5462.31,"end":5476.642,"text":"如果說前面搞不定後面就去壓那些分包的那些廠商壓那些安全的維護所以到最後出事情發生公安的都是工人但是品質不佳受害的是全民所以我在這邊提出一個要求就是"},{"start":5477.663,"end":5501.376,"text":"如果將來有重大門檻變更的話如果差價譬如說大於15%那是不是要啟動二次審查這個部分麻煩經濟部也能夠思考一下要不要再啟動二次審查如果價額你後面追加或灌水有時候我們還聽到三四成以上那是不是只要超過15%我們為了看守人民的荷包麻煩做二次的審查這跟政黨無關 這為國家好"},{"start":5503.377,"end":5528.662,"text":"那第三個就是從我剛講的招考的舞弊到酬庸的那個這肥貓文化我想這幾個點是我覺得我自己在辦以前辦這種案子之後我心裡的感覺這幾個點一定要把它解決好所以那個也請廉政署針對這個國營事業的接避受理調查保護救濟資訊公開SOP等等的你在一個月內能夠給我一個"},{"start":5529.822,"end":5554.878,"text":"國營事業接避保護執行方案的書面然後而且要發佈一個就是公營事業跟這些它的一個通用範本讓大家有跡可循否則我跟你講這些國營事業這些寄生蟲將來就是跟蟑螂一樣一直冒出來而且永遠打不完但是我覺得我們國人要用多少條命多少億元下去補這個洞我覺得這都不應該好不好"},{"start":5555.618,"end":5567.043,"text":"那再麻煩各位要能夠積極的處理這件事情好 謝謝各位好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員詢答好 謝謝主席那有請中遊董事長"},{"start":5586.854,"end":5616.003,"text":"好 請好好 董事長早我想我們花一些時間來釐清相關媒體的訊息也來釐清一下剛剛兩位委員三位委員的槌尋我認為有弊案該查就查該說就說那中郵該對全民交代就對全民交代但是我認為有一些基本的訊息我們一起來釐清那我手上呢左手邊這個投影片是馬政府時代所規劃的這個方案我想你應該非常清楚 對嗎你在中郵待非常久了"},{"start":5616.463,"end":5636.893,"text":"之前也擔任過天然氣事業執行部的執行長對嗎是的好所以左手邊這個是馬總統時代所規劃的232公頃的大潭藻礁後來因為環團的抗議有人民的聲音所以到了蔡政府時代就一個是外推對嗎是的好 外推多長"},{"start":5640.194,"end":5663.299,"text":"455公尺也就是原來在沿岸外推455公尺第一個再來原本是232公頃可是因為當時有藻礁的議題所以我們把面積縮小了從232縮減到23公頃對嗎是的好那我我認為如果我們看這一次媒體相關爆料出來這個案子困境應該是因為外推所衍生出來的相關成本增加對嗎"},{"start":5664.259,"end":5692.301,"text":"對 沒有錯好 那我們辦公室的整理是這樣您看一下原本的方案是只有五個方案要做包含棧橋工程 企劃工程儲槽 路管跟配器站可是因為做了外推這件事情我剛剛說是為了配合環團跟人民對於藻礁保育的疑慮所以蔡政府時代做了外推的規劃也因為這個外推現在這個案子是因為觀塘接收站外推方案之外擴防波堤新建工程這253億 對嗎"},{"start":5694.002,"end":5713.644,"text":"是的好目前的資訊是這樣我們先幫國人釐清到底這253億的錢到底是放在哪邊是使用好原本你們的規劃是這樣如果我說的都是對的話我們來看一下如果按照公共工程招標的相關規定我們必須要做招標文件公開閱覽公告對嗎就是我右手邊這一張"},{"start":5714.685,"end":5725.862,"text":"我們現在看到的數字呢當時你們在111年的1月12上網公告這個外推就是我剛剛說外推400多公尺這個方案你們當時的預算金額是238.4億"},{"start":5729.008,"end":5757.188,"text":"公開閱覽的時候是公開閱覽的時候是這樣說我可以問一下但是我左手邊我們來看一下我左手邊相關的媒體新聞說的說了非常多數字94億啦122、150、220、256到253但是你們的說法是說公開閱覽的時候寫的是238.4後來到底是發生了什麼事情為了到了4月29號招標第一次公告變253關於這個部分可不可以請董事長說一下"},{"start":5757.768,"end":5778.215,"text":"為什麼公開閱覽是238.4但是第一次招標公告的時候到了253是 謝謝委員讓我說明我們在公開閱覽的時候是238.4億對就確定了那麼公開閱覽當然就是目的就是希望民眾或者是廠商對於我們公開閱覽的這些所有資料有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":5779.215,"end":5796.95,"text":"那麼同時呢 這個台灣世西呢他也去對於三個廠商呢 去詢價那麼把這些資訊收集了以後呢最終做一個研判那麼這三家廠商呢都有回報他們的報價資料那這個範圍大概在240到270億之間你說不同的廠商報價回來的數字所以240到270"},{"start":5804.996,"end":5827.255,"text":"對 好 接下來請說對於這個公開閱覽所提供的意見譬如說在什麼數量上他們認為說你的數量上有沒有不足的地方或者是多的地方或是相關的契約條文有沒有需要做調整那麼把這些公開的這些資訊收集了以後再做一個最後的中整那麼台灣世信給我們提供的資料是253億"},{"start":5829.056,"end":5844.367,"text":"好 所以我們就根據這個253我們就做了4月29號招標第一次公告 對嗎經過公司的一個內部程序好 那到了6月29號招標也是253這中間還發生了什麼樣的事情這中間沒有發生任何事情好 那為什麼有二次招標公告"},{"start":5844.867,"end":5864.011,"text":"因為第一次招標的時候不足三家是所以流標好 不足三家流標所以到第二次有順利有三家嗎還是兩家但是我們7月29還是做了絕標253億是好 那這個流程看起來都是公開資料所可以查得到的但是我個人比較好奇"},{"start":5864.671,"end":5892.847,"text":"為什麼在週刊裡面出現這麼多數字是94到253但是我們過往在相關採購法的規定公開閱覽公告的這個要進行正式上網公告之前我們通常會有多久的作業時間要去跟相關的專家學者討論跟相關的公司或者是收集更多的意見通常你們做出這個公開閱覽公告之前的前置時間以這個案例為例你們做了多久的討論跟收集意見"},{"start":5894.689,"end":5910.283,"text":"我請黃國聰做說明好不好好 是跟委員報告那公開越南法定的時間是工作天所以前後大概十天加上內部的一個評估一個月內應該就可以把相關的招標文件訂稿以上報告"},{"start":5910.543,"end":5925.992,"text":"好 一個月內相關招標文件可以定稿可是在這之前呢你們為了這個三接的這個防波體興建你們花了多少時間研究它到底相關工程的難度可能跟所需的預算跟可能需要到什麼樣的工程技術你們花了多久時間研議這個案子可以給我一個大概的數字嗎我想委員想知道就是台灣47它做內部的設計跟評估大概花了多少時間對有沒有這個資訊"},{"start":5939.921,"end":5967.042,"text":"是不是 我目前沒有這個資訊好 沒關係 你們幫我們再幫我們提供但是我來看 我認為一般人我們都不是工程專業我們也不是相關專家學者就算現在我們要立刻讀了這些資料我們不見得可以立刻消化但是我認為人民會擔心一件事情也會想要問一件事情到底這個數字有沒有合理就工程的專業跟所需要的成本回到我剛剛前面那張投影片就是外退那個圖 謝謝"},{"start":5968.483,"end":5997.217,"text":"來往前推再前一張外推的這個工程第一個關鍵是一不可以破壞礁體不可以浚挖原外海填區21公頃不填防波堤變短海域更開放然後預算增加然後供氣然後還要離岸這些我看起來都有相關的難度對嗎是的我可不可以請董事長分享一下國外有沒有相關的案例或是在台灣有沒有相關的案例讓人民可以想像這個成本對照起來是合理的"},{"start":5998.101,"end":6004.031,"text":"我想在國外一定有類似的案例對 例如但是這個我好 那台灣呢"},{"start":6005.066,"end":6030.242,"text":"那麼台灣的話就是在台灣的幾個天然氣接收站當然都是建港包括了就是我們永安所謂的一街一街然後三街那麼以及未來的四街以及五街還有現在在高雄的七街它都是屬於在岸邊的去興建一個港但是這個"},{"start":6031.616,"end":6048.889,"text":"三接它比較不同的它是一個離岸的離岸的一個港剛剛提到就是說距離要經由棧橋來去連接最遠的距離到達1.2公里所以它本身三接來講在港本身的建設它的困難度是相當的高"},{"start":6049.329,"end":6078.105,"text":"等一下剛剛董事長您說了一個關鍵你說高雄的七街它是在岸邊嘛對不對就是原本就比較像是馬總統規劃那個岸邊可是如果我們去查高雄洲際七街防波堤每公尺的興建成本跟三街幾乎是接近的很高其實也是要500萬到600萬之間所以如果按照您的推論三街難度更高而且外推的內容更寬然後必須要考慮生態保育的工程越多那現在這個數字看起來應該是合理的數字囉"},{"start":6079.466,"end":6102.202,"text":"我認為是很合理的數字以三接跟七接來比的話三接除了它離岸比較遠以外那麼因為它的水域也比較深好 第一個水域深 還有呢第二個在它的一個施工在岸上的一個要做沉箱的區域它周邊的土地是沒辦法提供所以它必須要從台北港這邊"},{"start":6103.223,"end":6127.971,"text":"很遠的地方送到三階的所在地這個航程所花的這個成本也是相當的一個高好 所以就現在為止我認為我們一般人會在意的問題就是工程難度高不高所以我們需要花了這麼多錢還有相關公告的時間在這之前我們到底聽過多少專家學者的意見也不會只有業界的意見跟相關工程的評估你們都認為是合理的那我最後就要說我認為"},{"start":6128.971,"end":6155.672,"text":"如果我們認為是合理合法的我們應該就自己來把話說清楚當然我們非常支持剛剛所有委員的建議陣風減調 該查就查 該辦就辦有新的事證我們就來討論我覺得要讓國人對中油有信心對所有的國家公共工程有信心最後我也要拜託中油我想在配合調查的過程當中有相關事證或者是相關緊要跟你們要任何資料我覺得該公開就公開"},{"start":6156.252,"end":6183.864,"text":"我們給國人一個交代我們自己好好把話說清楚就如同我們今天看的不管是公開閱覽的公告資料或者是相關預算甚至是最前面一張我提的我們從本來是近海岸的這個三接變成後來外推這件事情我們所必須額外衍生的成本跟相關工程的困難我認為我們都應該要一併讓國人知道當然弊案的部分我們絕對支持法務部相關後續的動作好不好"},{"start":6184.204,"end":6193.67,"text":"那就拜託中友 我們就自己把事情說清楚就如同我們今天花了這些時間把這些基本的資料搞清楚也非常重要 好嗎好 謝謝委員謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 我們下一位請翁曉琳委員進行詢問"},{"start":6216.411,"end":6227.685,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麼首先先邀請法務部正部長還有陳局長及廉政署的林副署長林副署長"},{"start":6229.854,"end":6251.78,"text":"吳委員長部長好首先我想要問一個也是涉及到比較算是制度層面上面的問題這次週刊爆料有關於中油三接二期工程可能涉及舞弊的事情裡面特別有提到檢舉人他其實從三年前他就開始檢舉了"},{"start":6252.74,"end":6268.408,"text":"但是三番兩次的檢舉都沒有效果最後他不得已把檢舉的事情提供給週刊然後由週刊寫出來然後才引起大家的關注所以本席想請教就是說你們對於目前"},{"start":6269.148,"end":6292.925,"text":"像是人民的檢舉案 告發案等等檢調單位不僅是地檢署還有調查局 廉政署你們有沒有一套受理的SOP還是說是檢舉案進來了基本上置之不理等到上面上級長官交辦之後才開始把檢舉函找出來看你們有沒有一套SOP"},{"start":6295.492,"end":6319.847,"text":"檢舉進來的話那個受理的機關他就會收文收文他們認為有涉及到犯罪事實的話就會做一個立案所以有涉及到犯罪事實才會立案基本上立案之後才開始偵辦才會有字號就是案件字號但是誰來認定說這個案子到底有沒有涉及犯罪事實要不要受理"},{"start":6321.848,"end":6347.684,"text":"譬如說你提檢署你收了這個檢舉函之後他沒有一個登載記錄嗎這個一定收文一定會有收文會有所以如果說是以這次的這個週刊上面講說這個檢舉人他基本上已經至少兩次了吧都有去檢舉那你們都沒有任何的收文的記錄嗎事實上這個案件其實在調查一個年度基本我了解是在"},{"start":6348.191,"end":6366.983,"text":"周刊報的以前就有立案了都有在調查了所以沒有像周恩講說我們置之不理沒有那回事所以也就是說基本上是檢調已經當時收到警局人的來函然後已經有開始算是有立案嗎立案有在調查嗎這個是我請調查局跟聯證署來談聯證署來回覆一下"},{"start":6371.579,"end":6392.419,"text":"报告委员调查局先回答好不好是这个案子我们调查局只收过一次检举就是我在书面报告里面提到就在今年的8月那我们收到检举以后我们就马上就立案好所以你们调查局是8月的时候才收到这个检举第一次的检举第一次然后两三年前那时候没有收到没有好那另外林政署呢"},{"start":6394.966,"end":6421.745,"text":"跟委員報告在113年我們有接到一份檢舉但是當時的檢舉的內容不是很具體那比較像是單位就是國營事業裡面可能在預算的編列上有問題所以當時是交由經濟部的政風處轉由總有的政風處來進行調查那今天經濟部看是次長還是可以回覆"},{"start":6424.915,"end":6441.04,"text":"好 請次長說明一下你們有收到檢舉函嗎我們這邊有收到就是從那個我們廉政署交下來的一個查查的一個資料所以你是在去年就收到了去年那在此之前呢在此之前是沒有"},{"start":6443.201,"end":6462.533,"text":"我必須說當然這個事情現在已經檢調已經在進行偵辦了那麼我希望就是說可以把這個檢舉的這個事情相關的流程要弄清楚這檢舉人基本上大概已經檢舉了不止兩次如果說14年8月可能還有去年他說三年前他就有檢舉了"},{"start":6463.453,"end":6490.512,"text":"那么所以到底这些检举进了检调单位廉政署之后是不是石沉大海到底谁有权决定说有没有涉及犯罪事实有没有开始要成立立案那本席认为说这个是一件很重要的事情那么事实上法务部自己内部你们有定定检查机关办案期限及防止羁押实施要点防止羁延实施要点那在这个实施要点里面其实没有看到就是说有关于像是受理检举函"},{"start":6491.252,"end":6506.526,"text":"就如果有結局涵提出來之後他的誰要是不是要受理誰來決定這個部分是不是可以請部長你們之後可以去延期重新檢討這份實施要點有沒有需要再做檢討"},{"start":6507.567,"end":6535.69,"text":"那個我們再來做一個再做一個檢視那我想我們沒有再刺案了剛才委員有很關心這個問題那我想廉政署剛才有提到是在去年就有收到這個而且那個檢舉收到底是跟哪個機關哪個單位檢舉我們不清楚我們現在僅能夠就我們所屬的機關我們接獲的檢舉或者是像上次那個辦那個那個是委員會是一個會上次"},{"start":6536.37,"end":6562.669,"text":"記者會那一次有把這個資料轉給台北地檢署來依法來偵辦那這部分我想我們這邊的控管都是相當的嚴謹的我希望你們的管控是嚴謹的因為事實上如果從剛剛的這個各個不同機關的說明裡面就可以知道不是說沒有受到檢舉函只是你們認為可能沒有那麼嚴重不涉及到犯罪所以根本沒啟動那在中間有沒有可能"},{"start":6563.169,"end":6575.607,"text":"有人是故意把這個案子沒收起來了好不曉得不過就是沒關係這個部分我想本席這邊已經了解清楚了那麼確實是就是如同週刊上面所報告所講的新聞檢舉人的確他之前就已經有檢舉了"},{"start":6580.313,"end":6602.461,"text":"那是不是寄給不同的機關都是同樣的檢舉函而有些機關有受理有些機關沒有受理那麼總之就這個案子來講的話基本上還是要盡速的去查辦那接下來我要想問的就是說事實上有關於今天在防務部的報告裡面也有寫到有關於機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":6603.541,"end":6617.511,"text":"其實這個政策基本上是蠻不錯的主要是為了要確保國家重大的公共建設的品質以及廉潔所以廉政署有積極推動機關採購廉政平台的機制到目前為止根據你們自己的"},{"start":6619.011,"end":6644.044,"text":"裡面的報告內容已經設立了90案的廉政平台然後其中有64個案子還在持續運作有25個案已經結案了有一個案因為政策調整暫緩但我想請問一下就是為什麼我們台灣的重大工程這麼多件但是事實上只有90案有成立機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":6645.52,"end":6671.356,"text":"标准是什么这个是有一个在法务部有在2016年就有颁布的一个机关采购廉政平台的一个实施计划但是因为本来就是政府采购是采最低标那最低标会有一些的现象就是工程品质没办法做一个确保所以那就采最有利标所以在那个情况之下说又有责有法务部去去定定这个机关采购廉政平台"},{"start":6671.476,"end":6687.087,"text":"是的部長我知道我剛說了我基本上認為說這樣子的一個概念這樣的一個機制是很好的但是全台我們現在每年政府有這麼多的重大公共工程公共工程的採購案為什麼只有90個案子是有成立連任平台這邊可能要請經濟部次長可能也請您回覆經濟部旗下那麼多國營事業這麼多的案子請問您知道你們現在有多少案子是有成立"},{"start":6698.715,"end":6716.774,"text":"這個廉政採購平台的嗎採購廉政平台我們現在就針對綠能還有一些水利署的一些案件我們有運用這個廉政的這個採購的平台來協助那我接下來想請那個方董事就是請中油董事長還有台電的"},{"start":6720.8,"end":6739.81,"text":"台電董事長請問兩位董事長你們目前你們自己公司裡面的這些採購案有成立採購廉政平台嗎我印象中有幾個案子有成立譬如說週季二期的石化除草那你們這次的中油三接的這個案子有嗎"},{"start":6740.831,"end":6753.639,"text":"三接這個工程沒有對 所以你們是為什麼你們是什麼樣的標準有些要成立有些又沒有成立像這麼金額這麼龐大的案子竟然沒有成立機關採購廉政平台是對 這個基本上也是一個很明顯的一個疏失"},{"start":6762.663,"end":6777.224,"text":"可能就是在当时就是几个重大的工程去选择的问题那么理论上应该是每一个重大工程案都要成立如果说他提早成立的话也许就不会发生像今天这样的错误请问像台电董事长你们有成立吗"},{"start":6780.974,"end":6799.969,"text":"我們有成立我們有成立就包括現在在招標中的合一合二室內乾除的案子包括離岸二期的案子幾個重大的案子比較金額大的我們都有成立廉政平台我想請中郵跟台電這裡就是要提供給我的資料還包含那個"},{"start":6801.37,"end":6814.89,"text":"經濟部就是你們目前這是有多少的重大公共工程案子然後有多少件是成立了這個產工廉政平台這相關的數量要給我我想至少100億以上的案子都算是大案子吧"},{"start":6815.931,"end":6838.126,"text":"甚至可能51百億以上都是大案子但是我沒有想到竟然實際上成立的這麼少那麼以我們這次看到你們這麼嚴重的弊案竟然沒有之前就沒有成立這樣的案子讓我真是匪夷所思接下來我還要再請教中郵的董事長的一個問題就是這次我們可以看到"},{"start":6839.347,"end":6858.665,"text":"主要是台湾世锡公司它基本上针对三接二期的计划提了相关的预算的评估在第一次是提的是238亿那么第二次又增加到253亿我想请教中油"},{"start":6859.386,"end":6873.842,"text":"里面有没有针对世锡公司所提出的预算报告有一个在控管或是在查核的一个机制我们怎么知道世锡它这样的报价对不对你们有经过什么样的审查机制吗"},{"start":6874.403,"end":6891.227,"text":"當然在公司內部會有一個複合的機制我們會去查他所提供的一些大宗物料大宗物料 譬如說塊石 鋼筋混泥土這些用量比較大的這些基礎材料會去做一個查核 查死的動作"},{"start":6891.926,"end":6911.722,"text":"因為如果說是以這次的週刊上面的這些報導的話那本席也認為說其實世錫公司在當時針對這個二階外推的工程的預算評估或許也有問題是不是它裡面它也浮爆"},{"start":6912.643,"end":6935.634,"text":"就是因為他一開始他服報了他就是應該說他他應該是他就是把這個估價估得高了然後你們後來又依照那個比較高的價格去公告所以才會產生後續這種服報工程費的這個問題所以對於世西這個顧問公司裡面他當時他做的每一個計畫你們的負荷是"},{"start":6939.304,"end":6962.75,"text":"如实的吗就是你们有真正的去好好的去看里面的问题吗是 当然我们有好好的看这第一点当然我想接下来检调单位会针对这个案子继续去做详查那么尤其是我们看到这次连政署他所做的这个报告法务部的报告也说所有现在国营事业里面的弊案就以中游最多"},{"start":6963.61,"end":6984.246,"text":"所以你們真的要深切檢討怎麼可能紀律風氣會荒唐到這樣的一個程度實在是不可思議所以董事長應該要好好的要去整頓中油內部好不好好OK那今天就談到這邊那接下來我要我剛剛所請你們要提供的報告也請你們在禮拜五之前提供給我好謝謝"},{"start":7000.322,"end":7009.584,"text":"我們待會在王洪威委員質詢完後我們就稍微休息一個五分鐘好那接下來請王洪威委員詢答好謝謝主席我請一下我們中油董事長"},{"start":7030.567,"end":7031.974,"text":"經濟部經濟部今天次長經濟部次長"},{"start":7037.799,"end":7059.741,"text":"好 董事長 市長我們今天主要專案報告是在於我們中油的三接的工程當然因為之前是先提出來二期工程它的整個的金額一直腐爛的報價今天又有一個新的爆料就是在一期工程的部分"},{"start":7060.982,"end":7085.778,"text":"也有就是跟不合就是一般來講就是先做這個價格標先讓廠商來報價我想請問一下董事長一期的部分得標的公司是什麼公司黃昌泛亞的一個共同團隊來投標他得標一期的部分對第一期第一期那第二期呢"},{"start":7086.38,"end":7100.062,"text":"第二期也是皇昌范雅這個團隊的都是兩家同樣的公司那在這個皇昌的部分皇昌部分是它的得標金額是多少它一期的得標金額"},{"start":7102.905,"end":7128.284,"text":"我們先講第二 外推這個部分它得標是235億253億 這應該講二期253億 對不起二期Total 253億那麼第一期得標金額為220億第一期220億嗎最佳這個我說明一下就是建港微體造地工程它的合約決標金額是222億"},{"start":7131.909,"end":7148.032,"text":"那後來因為外推方案的關係所以把原來的這個工程裡面沒有重疊的部分就把它切出去了只有在原先不變的部分留在原合約裡面不是 你這樣有點複雜我現在先 我們先把它切開來看"},{"start":7149.033,"end":7161.105,"text":"二期二期就是我們今天專案報告的二期的工程總價最後確定的是253億嘛253億對不對好那一期呢我講的是一期166億這樣不就不會搞混了"},{"start":7168.854,"end":7183.46,"text":"一期166億但這個還是有點奇怪因為根據黃昌海市他自己的公告一期是172億有沒有修正對 一期是166但是工程驗收結束以後做最終的結算是172億追加了"},{"start":7199.469,"end":7213.986,"text":"對不起 講錯了 講反了契約是172那最後的結算是166是結算166億然後到了第二期變成253億我想起我一期二期的工程有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7215.663,"end":7234.693,"text":"二期的工程它的防波堤的長度比較長這第一點 第二點呢長多少呢大概接近一千米接近一千米有長到 有比較 我說比較長到一千米嗎700公尺 700公尺700公尺嘛長度多了700公尺700公尺變一千米對不起"},{"start":7237.248,"end":7253.307,"text":"那個水深的部分也不一樣一期的部分水深是在-15米以內我看到的資料如果按照沉箱的部分沉箱的部分二期是144座沉箱一期是138座沉箱"},{"start":7257.472,"end":7280.433,"text":"那當然這個兩期的工程時間距離有點長那有可能是受到比如成本或者物料什麼等等之類的無論如何一期跟二期的工程我其實看不出來兩個工程它的難度跟它的規模有差多少但是金額大幅的增加"},{"start":7281.394,"end":7307.81,"text":"那這個部分而且在二期的部分黃昌的比例由原來的47%增加到73%所以他得標的金額將近200億186.83億那這個當然現在檢調要去調查這裡面所謂的相關的爆料那另外我想請教董事長你們已經完成你們的行政調查了嗎"},{"start":7308.957,"end":7318.704,"text":"第一次的行政調查在去年年底就完成了現在就根據新市政我們已經重啟了調查"},{"start":7319.983,"end":7341.685,"text":"什麼時候開始重啟上週在記者會之後我們就開始了上週開始重啟所以還在進行中進行中那你們在去年年底的行政調查的內容是跟現在的爆料的內容是一致的嗎也就是這邊有服邊然後工程款暴增的狀況"},{"start":7342.691,"end":7365.146,"text":"基本上主題就是這個項目所以上次行政調查已經結案所以董事長還有部長如果這一次檢調的調查因為檢調現在在調查中如果出現如果確實裡面有所弊端的話那麼"},{"start":7366.167,"end":7371.831,"text":"你們行政調查要不要負責任因為你們行政調查結案了所以才會有這個陸陸續續繼續來爆料是不是"},{"start":7375.061,"end":7401.244,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告就是說現在有新施政出來了所以我們調查的對象當時有這個錄音嗎當時沒有當時沒有這個錄音所以你們現在就是在行政調查裡面主要針對這個錄音也就是有說什麼中油什麼都不缺啦就是而且錢最多啦就不缺錢所以這個部分你們現在是第二次第二次行政調查的重點"},{"start":7403.345,"end":7422.698,"text":"預計行政調查什麼時候會完成我是希望我們政風署在一個月內把它完成這個行政調查一個月內 如果是說以11月去上個星期的話所以應該在12月初就可以完成整個的行政調查是不是在12月中好了"},{"start":7423.843,"end":7429.788,"text":"我一講 你就一個月你要不要又把它拖到12月中好吧 就是12月中那麼你們就應該完成你們的行政調查給外界一個交代我要講的是為什麼我特別提到黃昌黃昌這家公司在我如果看這個政府採購網"},{"start":7445.419,"end":7456.043,"text":"它在2023年2024年大概政府得標案件大概是100億到200億元之間100億到200億元之間2025大爆發超過400億"},{"start":7462.506,"end":7486.839,"text":"超過400億那當然他其實這個黃昌他的這個得標跟政府得標台北市卻是捷運工程因為他之前那個有包捷運工程然後有一些國道工程也有但是這445億裡面貢獻最大的就是中油就是中油而且他過去跟中油沒有什麼往來"},{"start":7488.018,"end":7507.87,"text":"它過去跟中油沒有什麼往來它大部分都是地方的交通工程為主或者都交通工程為主所以過去它的時機其實它也跟中油的工程是沒有這麼相關更不要說這些提防什麼外推工程"},{"start":7508.71,"end":7531.778,"text":"但是一期給他 二期給他一期得標的比例47%到了二期的比例超過70%確實讓大家覺得說他整個在中油的工程裡面是大爆發的所以我想請教一下董事長這家黃昌你之前認識嗎在所謂一期得標以前不認識"},{"start":7537.318,"end":7562.18,"text":"一起得標之前不認識不認識那得標之後就認識了當然因為有契約執行關係對於工程的執行當然就會每個月都要開會就會接觸到就會接觸所以你們個人是很信任黃昌在三接重大的工程一期 二期你們很信任他的品質"},{"start":7564.062,"end":7576.047,"text":"我不能講說很信任就是有工程的合約嘛那麼雙方依照合約上面所規定的權利義務來去共同執行讓這個工程做得更好 更完善"},{"start":7577.042,"end":7598.135,"text":"因為我要特別提到就是說因為黃昌過去他沒有跟你們中有相關的往來也沒有這些相關的時機比如說你今天如果是一些交通工程交給他我覺得我更認為是比較合理因為他過去他做了很多的不管捷運或者是國道的一些交通的工程"},{"start":7598.835,"end":7627.819,"text":"那這個工程金額這麼龐大然後現在又出現了就出現了這些相關的這些質疑那黃昌這家公司以前被人家戲稱為叫什麼黃家公司為什麼黃家那他以前是主要是跟陳水扁前總統關係非常密切因為大家都知道陳水扁總統他入獄的時候正好黃昌的老闆是跟他住同一個牢房"},{"start":7628.481,"end":7629.294,"text":"住同一個牢房"},{"start":7629.764,"end":7658.178,"text":"所以過去黃昌他叫黃昌但是很多人都叫他黃家黃家營造但是在陳水扁總統他卸任之後其實他跟企業界跟政府就沒有那麼很明確的往來但是現在又突然起了這樣子的一個我們中油的爭議中油累積坤水現在是多少"},{"start":7659.558,"end":7678.153,"text":"累計虧損接近800億累計虧損才800億嗎目前財務報表累計虧損大概800億但是因為我們之前有一些保留所以把以前累計的虧損就把它打掉了目前帳面上大概是累計虧損800億也有800億到現在為止"},{"start":7681.596,"end":7710.254,"text":"所以就说我们今天过去终于讲到中游的弊案其实真的非常多来我们看一下2022年2022年那个时候其实它本来是一案就像牵粽子一样它办一个案子又一签再签就签了好几个当时2022年中游曾经陷入多起的弊案之中"},{"start":7711.394,"end":7737.606,"text":"而且後來真的都有被起訴有被起訴有收回當時的中油董事長李順清他有講到因為那時候一而再再而三的發生這些相關的貪瀆弊案他說他很痛心這些貪污弊案讓他痛心要貪污賺大錢不要來中油"},{"start":7738.186,"end":7746.033,"text":"我覺得這一句話要再次的送給我們現在的中油我覺得同樣董事長也要有這樣的魄力跟這樣的認知如果你想要賺錢不要來中油因為中油是一個獨家的國營事業那確實它每一起標案都非常龐大"},{"start":7759.924,"end":7781.017,"text":"那這些弊案其實如果我不曉得檢調要花多少時間才能夠給我們一個答案那您剛剛講說你的行政調查在12月中可以提出來那我也會希望董事長能夠本於真的要查好弊案如果真的有貪瀆就把它查出來不要互短可不可以"},{"start":7785.499,"end":7814.439,"text":"可以一定是這樣做對 不要護短因為如果真的有這個事情的話一定要把他抓出來因為如果說這樣的弊案的陰影揮之不去然後其實馬上因為尤其這些都有一些牽涉到有沒有政商關係他不是單純的單純的貪圖弊案他還牽涉到有沒有其他政治的這個關係的話其實對中友絕對是傷害好不好是好 謝謝"},{"start":7817.305,"end":7819.41,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":8233.697,"end":8237.282,"text":"好謝謝我們現在繼續開會那接下來請王逸川委員詢答先請審發會委員審發會委員審發會委員不在他改成書面詢答好那接下來請王逸川委員"},{"start":8267.072,"end":8279.182,"text":"謝謝主席我們現在請工程會請工程會副主委還有中油公司中油董事長還有經濟部 謝謝經濟部次長好 謝謝為什麼不請法務部長跟調查局長因為個案裡面也不能講上來也是浪費時間好不好 好"},{"start":8294.964,"end":8319.479,"text":"我看經濟部針對今天的報告你們報告裡頭說中油採購案在你們看來都符合程序對不對目前你的了解是這樣就是說中油給你的報告你看完你覺得是符合程序的就這麼簡單沒有任何你們覺得很怪的事情"},{"start":8319.995,"end":8331.703,"text":"我們就從行政程序上面我們去了解一下這個案子有沒有跟採購法的程序有沒有相違接下來我們請工程會站在工程會的角度這個案子不管這個"},{"start":8342.746,"end":8361.445,"text":"幾期的工程啊這個媒體多所報導那裡面也寫說站在什麼專家的角度看起來好像也不太對什麼先叫廠商報價然後再公告再進行這一個評選"},{"start":8365.202,"end":8393.519,"text":"我們一個工程在進行的時候要多少錢才能做完的這件事情在工程界裡頭不管設計的公司設計建造或PCM在事前把可能潛在的廠商進行相關的巡駕這是合理的嗎這是一般正常的作業方法好 那巡駕完的這一些廠商被巡駕的廠商可不可以來投標"},{"start":8394.797,"end":8423.609,"text":"如果他這個相關的招標的資訊已經公開的沒有迴避的問題好那現在站在工程會的角度這個案子你們看起來有沒有怪怪的因為如果照媒體的報導好像問題比較出在是巡駕跟顧問公司提出預算的那媒體不管是他自己想像的或者是有人講的或者是怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":8425.051,"end":8450.619,"text":"如果你們看完這些報導那你覺得在工程上這有沒有怪怪的目前我們就程序上來看我們看不出來有什麼特別的問題所以我們會去進行工程的集合集合形式上看起來我們有先去瞭解就形式上看起來不曉得問題是出在哪裡是沒有發現有異常"},{"start":8452.475,"end":8455.163,"text":"這案子裡面有啟動相關的了解多久了"},{"start":8456.056,"end":8483.12,"text":"因為媒體報導當時的那個檢舉並沒有到工程會來說我們是這一次媒體報導以後那麼我們才啟動內部的一個先了解那因為我們的了解只是從相關的政府公告裡面去得知啦那我們要進一步去看個案的文件的話必須啟動集合的這個制度那啟動集合的制度才有辦法去看個案現在還沒啟動"},{"start":8484.391,"end":8512.519,"text":"現在準備要啟動但是先從政府採購的相關的在你們手上的文件因為那都公開資訊就去研判他到底有沒有跟一般的採購案不太一樣至於這一個個案就是要啟動相關的集合才能夠查清楚嗎現在的這個程序到這裡好 接下來請忠友"},{"start":8514.492,"end":8538.773,"text":"委員長這個案子從比較少的經費到比較多的經費你都參與嗎我不瞭解委員的意思 從比較少的經費是值的就是說他後來推出去嘛本來經費比較少 然後往外推嘛這個過程你也在中游嗎這個過程你都有參與嗎有參與那台灣世襲在這個案子的角色是什麼"},{"start":8539.738,"end":8556.899,"text":"他是我們委託的專業顧問公司做什麼 他從事細部設計港的這個細部設計還有預算的籌編以及招標文件的撰寫那監照也是他們 監照也委託他監照也是他們 那專管理是誰"},{"start":8558.055,"end":8585.467,"text":"專案管理也是委託他委託台灣世西設計 建造 專案管理都是台灣世西台灣世西在這個案子裡頭歷年歷次提出來的金額相關的討論你也都參與嗎這個部分沒有比較重大的才會有參與我是說從現在到幾百億最新的這個數字你有參與嗎沒有 我收到的話就是他們提報的一個238億"},{"start":8587.284,"end":8607.239,"text":"我知道 我是說這個數字你有看到嗎238要公告之前 就公告招標之前嘛這個我知道好 那你們 你說這個世襲送來的這些資訊啊你們內部會進行相關的你們的名詞 就是進行相關的這個查對啦諸如此類的事情你們用什麼專業去評估世襲送來的是對的"},{"start":8608.892,"end":8621.319,"text":"我們當然就是做複合對 複合你們怎麼複合那我們就是對於比較大宗的這個材料的部分那我們自己公司也有以往你們是處理材料的單價嗎單價數量"},{"start":8623.872,"end":8642.9,"text":"數量是屬於台灣四溪他要去好所以在你們這個階段就台灣四溪送進來有單價有數量有各式各樣的工法包括直接工程間接工程假設工程全部都有嘛對不對那在你們這一端處理的就是個別比較大宗的材料的單價是的其他呢"},{"start":8645.58,"end":8668.588,"text":"其他的沒有 就是就單價的部分其他的 你們也沒這個專業可以處理這個你們如果有專業就不用找世襲 對不對所以說在國內的工程界是這樣嘛因為你要做 你不是10名都會走嘛所以你們就拿了一筆錢請各個工程顧問公司那全台灣也不是只有世襲嘛世襲要來做這個案子也是 你們也是招標的嗎對 也是經過招標好 所以送進來之後對中友來說你們就只處理到那一個"},{"start":8674.611,"end":8688.397,"text":"材料的單價至於相關假設是工法的改變你們會有意見嗎工法的改變不是不可以改只是在於說必須要告訴我們告訴我們為什麼要改變工法那你們會有意見嗎當然會經過討論會議去討論我說你們怎麼討論"},{"start":8696.383,"end":8714.549,"text":"當然先經過會議去討論你們內部也會有專家去檢核譬如說海事工程專家土木工程專家相關的這些專家去檢核世襲交來的東西嗎是啊 是啊我們公司自己也有工程人員OK 所以就是說世襲送來的你們也會做檢核"},{"start":8715.697,"end":8733.112,"text":"最後請問董事長 這案子這樣子下來啊照你的了解啦 照你的了解這個案子啊 中油的內部啊不要管行政程序有沒有瑕疵那裡面內部的事你判斷喔 這個案子這樣下來中油公司有沒有人會被移送法辦"},{"start":8734.229,"end":8755.69,"text":"我目前來講我不會我對我的同仁非常有信心我不認為我們公司的人有涉入在這整個過程中就你的了解啦我有對同仁有信心OK就是說對你現在你當董事長或之前總經理你掌握的這一個資訊你認為中油公司的同仁在這個案子裡頭啊"},{"start":8756.751,"end":8774.064,"text":"還不到這一個可能會被相關處罰的問題是就你有信心我有信心那行政程序上呢是有沒有瑕疵行政程序上也沒有瑕疵目前看起來所有檢視資料的腳都按照程序在走就這一個採購的案子"},{"start":8774.878,"end":8795.201,"text":"在中有歷次相關的採購裡頭這個採購的案子你看起來也沒有相關的瑕疵沒有也沒有相關的瑕疵是那這個媒體報導成這樣今天委員質詢成這樣最後你有沒有什麼要跟各位講說這個案子啊你們的最後的這一個態度是什麼"},{"start":8796.104,"end":8825.323,"text":"我態度就是說現在既然有新市政嘛我們重啟行政調查來表達我們中國公司的一個決心當然在這個過程中檢調單位也會再調查我們可以互相搭配如果說最後是有這個事實或者是沒有這個事實那當然所採取的後續的動作就會不一樣好 因為你當董事長負全責嘛這個案子所有相關的文件我相信你想要看你也都看得到"},{"start":8826.426,"end":8849.612,"text":"接下來包括法務部 調局或廉政署接下來或相關的檢察官在查這個案子的時候也一定會跟你們要是對吧那在跟你們要之前我判斷你也應該都會看過或者是你的幕僚人員也都會先看過這些案子的真實的這些資訊是所以到目前為止你還是很有信心是的"},{"start":8850.253,"end":8860.837,"text":"好 那就繼續加油那相關這一個檢察官要的資料不要做任何的隱瞞那就交給這個司法去進行相關的調查好 謝謝好 謝謝文委員那接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答"},{"start":8876.271,"end":8888.86,"text":"謝謝主席 請調查局陳局長經濟部何正次工程會陳副主委好 廉政署林副署長好 請幾位中郵方董事長"},{"start":8897.199,"end":8909.795,"text":"好 大家辛苦了這一週胸油會成為立法院非常Hard Issue大家做足準備該辯護就辯護 該澄清就澄清當然有不法就要徹查 下一頁"},{"start":8911.556,"end":8929.296,"text":"中油三接的爭議在我目前看來爆料的內容真相還未明他需要去徹查不管是司法調查或是行政調查但是對於一個國家重要的能源重大建設卻因為這些政治的操作卻"},{"start":8931.017,"end":8957.523,"text":"為盟其利 先受其害了中油是國家重要的能源建設但是如果這件事情我們沒有處理好說明不夠完整然後淪為這種爆料或是報復的行為被貼上了負面的標籤我覺得對於國家重要的能源建設真的都是賠了夫人又折兵"},{"start":8958.522,"end":8972.144,"text":"所以說 在 好 調查局長在這在您看來 目前為止的資訊中游的三接的這個海事的工程是弊案嗎包委員 現在目前在調查中"},{"start":8973.231,"end":8998.488,"text":"所以 爭委未定嘛 是不是弊案 不知道所以我們不要貼上了負面的標籤我再一次說 經濟部次長中油的三接案還曾經歷經過環保跟能源之間的拔河 歷經了公投最後這個重要的建設我們還是上路了在風雨當中 在爭議當中我們要讓爭議化解到最小"},{"start":8999.611,"end":9022.464,"text":"那它對於國家重要的能源發展有哪些正向的意義因為北部的供電其實對這個三接工程事實上是非常非常重要的那當然我們也不希望說因為這個事件影響到整個三接的這個工程的進行所以我們既然有新的事證我們經濟部也重啟了調查"},{"start":9023.044,"end":9041.137,"text":"那當然檢調這邊也積極在偵辦那我想到最後一定會有一個水漏石出我希望在真相水漏石出之前我還是希望社會看待中油的三接案不要就被冠上了一個被汙名化所謂弊案的標籤"},{"start":9042.578,"end":9067.061,"text":"三接岸對於國家的能源轉型對於我們要跟上世界接軌推動淨零排碳乃至於北台灣的供電的穩定因為不能夠再失衡了對不對 當初三接我們就是好不容易在我們的核能也好燃煤要退場我們當然在北部的燃氣它要有充足的氣源嘛"},{"start":9068.422,"end":9096.084,"text":"所以這個天然氣的接收站站在國家重大的能源建設的角度上它攸關能源轉型攸關淨零排碳國際的競爭力更是穩定北台灣的擁電我還是希望經濟部也好中油也好在真相未明之前我們要強化定調這個論述我不樂見國家任何的重大建設先被貼上了汙名化的標籤切莫以"},{"start":9096.784,"end":9120.494,"text":"弊案來看待到目前為止這對國家重大建設並不公平下一頁我請陳局長我看到你們的報告裡頭有說調查局受理的貪瀆檢舉從2021到2025是1月有關國營事業就包括中油台電台水這些的整體的數字我整理在這裡"},{"start":9123.016,"end":9141.391,"text":"總體的受理的案件415案移送案件118案所以移送的比例是28%而移送案件當中的確實經司法審判目前起訴的案件因為我不能弄判決的案件因為很多還在審判中起訴的案件是61案換言之"},{"start":9143.553,"end":9163.687,"text":"不起訴的比例是86%起訴的案件是14%這告訴我們什麼有很多是到最後調查是查無那個不法的事證是 所以說這個數字會說話有14%的起訴任何一個案子都不能縱容"},{"start":9164.548,"end":9185.701,"text":"不管一億的案件一百億的案件任何的弊案就是不能縱容即便它只是一案我們還是要踏伐還是要依法就辦但是以你們調查局受理的所有的移送比例受理案件到移送包括這當中有一個gap是因為可能他監察就是檢舉不實或者是證據不足或者是烏龍爆料"},{"start":9188.923,"end":9203.937,"text":"然後真正的進入了起訴司法審判裡頭被起訴是14%不起訴是86%換言之檢舉的不實是極有可能發生甚至是多數就你們這個資料是這樣嗎"},{"start":9204.817,"end":9225.822,"text":"这是有可能的但是我们调查局的立场就是说对于任何一件检举的案件我们不设前提对我们一定进最大的进调查之能就是司法案件所谓案子有没有弊核心就在证据而不是政治或是其他力量的干扰不会有任何政治的考量我们请这个廉政署的副署长"},{"start":9227.475,"end":9252.951,"text":"服務長你好我也整理了你們的資料廉政署你們負責這個行政調查方面的這些數字確定判決你們從一樣2009到2025年受理的貪瀆廉政調查的案件呢移送的起訴的還起訴的到最終確定判決是358件很高我還是覺得很高雖然他比例是6.8%"},{"start":9255.855,"end":9277.538,"text":"確定判決的不法案件6.8%在你們移送司法調查之後那多數啦還是可能像剛剛調查局的數字差不多如果證據不實或者是檢舉是惡意的當然我們要還當事人清白那您簡單跟我講一下你們這個數字你們的解讀是什麼"},{"start":9279.578,"end":9300.996,"text":"報告委員在本署的偵辦案件裡面如果是明顯事證不足然後就會落在簽結的這個領域您大聲一點如果是在本署調查的過程明顯的事證不足那在廉政署那邊就會做簽結是那移送之後如果是檢察官認定沒有到起訴門檻就會落入不起訴"},{"start":9301.707,"end":9321.797,"text":"所以我们自行牵结的是四成但是多数我们也是认为有疑虑我们就移送对不对那移送司法去调查之后呢确定判决是6.8%所以要提醒我们在看待所有的贪毒检举案我们还是让真相查清楚再下定论好下一页"},{"start":9324.518,"end":9342.107,"text":"非常遺憾這個在野黨的委員用記者會的方式他們認為接受了吹哨者的陳情或是爆料用開記者會的方式就讓中油的三接案被貼上了弊案的標籤我再一次說沒有查清楚之前不宜這樣汙名化國家重要的能源建設下一頁"},{"start":9350.913,"end":9360.732,"text":"現在呢我看了你們全部的報告查核過三次對不對經濟部查核兩次嘛工程會查核過一次有沒有異狀"},{"start":9363.928,"end":9382.268,"text":"來誰代表跟我們報告我們從這個採購法的相關的程序內容來看的話並沒有任何的依照好經濟部也是嘛工程會也是嘛剛剛經濟部工程會也是嘛副主委那我請方董事長目前三接的進度多少"},{"start":9385.182,"end":9403.815,"text":"實際進度我不記得但是一個很重要的就是三接對外來講已經開始供應天然氣了從今年的6月已經方董事長我是不太同意您的回答實際的進度就寫在你的報告裡面75%而且超前了多少"},{"start":9404.884,"end":9421.725,"text":"超前了16.52%所以如果不是今天這個個案被爆料該查就查他實質的剛剛經濟部查核了兩次工程會查核了一次你們實質的進度是達到75%甚至進度超前了16.52%"},{"start":9424.301,"end":9443.957,"text":"這是這個建設到目前的狀況所以說好現在進行中因為被舉發了就該查不管是從拱明星部長不管是你們廉政署不管是法務部不管是中郵自己也重啟調查不管是工程會兩個月也專案"},{"start":9445.948,"end":9464.523,"text":"調查嗎如果我作為一個立法委員我要監督的是如果有人檢舉有人爆料不管他是惡意的是不是屬實我該監督的是如果所有的相關單位所有的相關機關構不查不辦不作為這才是我監督的重點"},{"start":9465.842,"end":9474.705,"text":"如果查了之後確實有弊案有不法那就該罰該救處的絕對不能縱容這也是我監督的重點或者是作為我們其他政策調整的參照這應當是一個負責任的國會議員該做的我說的是當一個案件如果被舉發了不查不辦不作為才是我該監督的"},{"start":9490.545,"end":9517.451,"text":"調查之後確定司法調查之後或者是行政調查之後認為有弊端的話我如果你們輕罰該嚴辦的不嚴辦那我當然也要監督但是除此之外所有的內容不應當是我在這裡任何一個立法委員在這裡帶風向未審先判政治力介入個案的這是我今天要說的重點"},{"start":9518.649,"end":9537.258,"text":"所以說呢 在下一頁非常遺憾 個案的政治公審又來了這一週 司法法治委員會就今天翁找偉排案 我尊重 我也在這裡履行我的問政的職責中遊三街的工程款爭議 今天要一次報告"},{"start":9538.567,"end":9558.921,"text":"那這一週在經濟委員會也針對中油三接案的公傳款的爭議再排一次會甚至國民黨團也在院會提了要求甚至我不能接受的是你要邀請行政院長來做任何專案報告我們都尊重但是對一個案子是非為民"},{"start":9560.622,"end":9586.778,"text":"還沒有定驗沒有經過完整的查查查辦卻以觀塘液化天然氣接收站也就是三階工程的弊案邀請行政院長來立法院備詢就以弊案來代之我認為這不是立法委員能夠做的你可以邀請行政院長來專案報告對於他的爭議疑義就像今天好 招委用爭議很好"},{"start":9588.619,"end":9609.66,"text":"如果是未審先判政治的公審就以閉案來貼上了負面的標籤查查出來如果沒有閉案呢如果查查沒有不法呢我認為這個都要審慎所以我再說一次不要介入個案不要用政治來公審"},{"start":9611.141,"end":9637.12,"text":"交给廉政署调查局行政的查处以及相关司法单位的司法调查他们才是有专业的调查工具的国家司法人员再一次提醒我作为一个立法委员如果今天这个案子有人检举你们站在我对面的这些官员们不查不办不作为才是我要监督的对象如果查了"},{"start":9638.081,"end":9666.191,"text":"沒有不法還人家清白可是對於中油被貼上的負面標籤這真的是為盟其利 鮮受其害它是重要的國家能源轉型的建設那如果真的查了有弊案你們還輕放不罰那更是我要強力去批判你們的但那個時間點不是現在我要請所有的從政同仁我們立法院的委員們不分黨派"},{"start":9667.091,"end":9684.43,"text":"曾幾何時你們最痛恨的淨檢你們不都說淨檢亂說話嗎今天拿週刊的爆料翻好像正義又轉了彎我認為我們不要兩套標準該查的在程序中我們都尊重司法的調查政治人少說話"},{"start":9685.831,"end":9705.757,"text":"要說就說基於何允的監督的權限而不是對於任何個案調查中就先奏下了定論這是我今天我表達的立場但是方董事長一個案子一億有任何弊案我們一樣絕對不縱容更何況這是253億的被檢舉的案件該釐清就釐清"},{"start":9712.762,"end":9717.845,"text":"我希望大家坦然面對司法的偵辦好辛苦大家謝謝好謝謝吳委員的發言我想我作為司法法治委員會的召委看到國營事業的弊案重生那麼尤其是檢調單位是不是有積極的在查辦在偵辦這個事情我作為立法委員我認為必須要"},{"start":9741.933,"end":9769.505,"text":"積極的去監督那麼所有的案件的狀況那從今天各個單位裡面所提供的報告裡面的確我們可以看到一些端倪為什麼而且透過詢答也知道其實不少單位其實真的在去年就已經收到中游三接的二期的檢舉函那可是為什麼都沒有積極的來偵辦那麼所以在"},{"start":9770.615,"end":9796.506,"text":"面對這麼重要的案子不同的委員會的委員都應該要負起這樣的職責來好好的了解到底我們台灣我們的公共工程出了些什麼問題那麼以及我們公堂有沒有被福報被濫用這應該是作為立法委員很重要的職責所以在這一周有不同的委員會來召開相關的會議那我認為是非常"},{"start":9797.336,"end":9811.869,"text":"合理的而且是有它的必要性接下來我們就請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來請林德福委員詢答"},{"start":9830.916,"end":9843.64,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請法務部正部長還有經濟部的何次長好 請部長還有次長委員好部長 您好"},{"start":9849.195,"end":9876.53,"text":"我想因為媒體在報導在2024年曾有這個飆落廠商檢舉類似的內容經濟部政風單位當時已經展開調查結果並沒有發現一些不法的行為那我請問八卦次長八卦這次檢舉時間到底是王美花的當部長的時間還是郭志輝前部長的任內"},{"start":9878.231,"end":9896.901,"text":"我講本案是疑點重重啦那本期是希望說檢調應該要儘速查清楚如果調查後發現媒體踢爆的全體資料有變造的情況似乎會另案來偵辦 部長你的看法呢"},{"start":9898.165,"end":9924.594,"text":"謝謝委員 那目前的話就是由台北地檢局指揮調查局跟廉政署在做一個偵辦那事實上那個檢舉的檢舉的那一部分那個剛才也講過了在去年在一一三年九月的時候就廉政署就接到檢舉那有請那個政風處來做一個行政調查那另外在今年那個調查局跟廉政署在今年的八月份都有接到檢舉都有就立案了"},{"start":9925.094,"end":9939.65,"text":"那現在都已經立案在偵辦了那我們就我們也希望就是勿往勿中積極來瞭解底清來做一個 如果有的話那我們就嚴辦那沒有到犯人侵犯到底他是在王美花部長那時候任內還是在郭志輝部長任內"},{"start":9943.024,"end":9967.724,"text":"這個三階工程的話應該是在王部長任內 時間很長因為政府採購法第70條規定機關辦理工程採購因明定廠商執行的品質管理環境保護以及施工安全衛生之責任並對重點項目訂定檢查程序以及檢驗的標準"},{"start":9969.665,"end":9990.618,"text":"那另外工程施工查核小組作業辦法第四條也規定民眾或廠商檢舉媒體報導或有資料顯示已有偽私或異常的工程標案工程施工查核小組應該要視為施工進度優先納入來查核"},{"start":9991.539,"end":10010.226,"text":"那我請問也請工程會的代理人來上來工程會的委員是否會優先做這個啟動工程施工查核小組來查核中油三接的整個工程是否有主要材料設備與設計不符的這種狀況"},{"start":10013.886,"end":10037.154,"text":"包委員 就工程查核的部分當然是有一個選案的一些標準但是就工程會因為去年我們並沒有工程會沒有接受到這個案子的檢舉函所以我們去工程查的時候並不是針對檢舉而是依照這個例行性的一些挑案所以由經濟部去查核兩次工程會去查核一次但是我們去查的時候並不知道有這個檢舉函"},{"start":10039.827,"end":10050.91,"text":"因為根據中游說法觀塘接收站外推方案的外擴黃波體興建工程是委託台灣4C公司來規劃先期作業成像"},{"start":10056.292,"end":10071.338,"text":"三家業者訪價也有進行公開閱覽程序後並考量整個營建物價的指數才進行工程的設計編列整個招標預算的金額以招標文件的製作"},{"start":10073.359,"end":10092.456,"text":"當時該項工程的設計在台灣市區董事長就是前立委叫施易芳任內是民進黨的音系那如今有新的錄音黨出現透過媒體來爆料這當中有沒有民進黨派系裡面的"},{"start":10094.458,"end":10120.38,"text":"惡鬥因為到上週五台灣市區目前的董事長是鄭運鵬以前的立委同仁都沒有對外來澄清駁斥相關的報導來指控令人好奇的是否有交通部行政院甚至於總統府的高層指示台灣市區不要對外發言這種狀況真的講外界有這些質疑"},{"start":10122.228,"end":10139.134,"text":"這是讓人家感覺說為什麼整個台灣世襲裡面頭到尾你們規劃設計但是到真正發生問題人家在質疑的時候你沒有出來澄清這個人家就打問號啊對不對 部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":10142.067,"end":10170.881,"text":"那這個案件您是在在偵辦中了那這部分我就不再講我希望積極處理啦這部分一定大概檢查會有不管到底有沒有弊端有弊端就給就要這個馬上偵辦沒有弊端的話當然也就是還他一個清白我認為這個很重要不要用拖延的方式來做處理那是大家不能接受的因為這個時間已經很長了不是今天才發生的"},{"start":10171.661,"end":10185.963,"text":"對不對 那有沒有作為就是看這裡今年十月一號媒體報導美國農業部次長來台推銷美國乙醇生殖的燃料稱只有在汽油加入百分之十的乙醇混合物"},{"start":10186.944,"end":10201.144,"text":"有助來降低整個溫室的氣體來排放那也可以推進雙邊貿易夥伴的關係那過去政府在中油曾經推動升值柴油的政策但民眾抱怨"},{"start":10202.105,"end":10230.484,"text":"反應容易造成車輛故障等因此104年監察院也糾正整個經濟部以及所屬的人員局的有關那升值能源的政策適當那本席是希望說經濟部在推動進口美國乙醇升值燃料時不要花大錢當冤大頭要記得過去升值能源的政策失敗的原因也鼓勵民眾使用乙醇升值這個"},{"start":10232.525,"end":10250.599,"text":"燃料時務必要確保不會造成民眾車輛的損害我相信這個站在大眾的立場應該要如此去做那因為時間到了我就不再後續繼續詢問那謝謝召委 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來請鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":10261.463,"end":10289.487,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們接下來就請鄭天才委員詢答好 主席有請這個廉政署署長有請廉政署"},{"start":10297.946,"end":10322.095,"text":"副署長今天的主題中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪瀆案件查處成效因為剛才很多委員都已經質詢了法務部部長也特別提到爭判中"},{"start":10323.366,"end":10342.639,"text":"所以當然我們是希望盡快的完成這個偵辦那我們今天我主要還是要談怎麼樣去防範未來我們今天的一個主題當然這個媒體有這麼詳細"},{"start":10345.178,"end":10369.914,"text":"的一個報導這個我們確實是要去從這個這樣的一個事件然後去了解整個相關我們的國營事業無論是中油台糖這個台電等等很多的國營事業如果按照你們廉政署自己的報告裡面也提到"},{"start":10371.849,"end":10398.731,"text":"這個這幾年確實無論是中油台糖或者是台電都有這些涉及到不法的一個事件你們也都處理可能還有很多沒有注意到的部分所以這個部分怎麼樣去防範未來這個是一個很重要的因為基本上在行政機關"},{"start":10400.697,"end":10414.853,"text":"在政府機關都有政風單位這個在國營事業請問一下這個副署長在國營事業你們這個怎麼樣去有相關的"},{"start":10417.222,"end":10439.515,"text":"這個陣風單位嗎我們在一些比較重要的國營事業是有設陣風單位像中友的話呢中友它的中高階主管都是由廉政署這邊就比較有經驗的陣風人員派過去所以他是有派在中高階主管的部分"},{"start":10440.635,"end":10464.335,"text":"像其他的國營事業都有不一定哪些沒有主要有設的是中油台電台糖水利公司像淘氣公司還有一些國營的銀行所以這個部分"},{"start":10466.533,"end":10495.595,"text":"怎麼樣去強化 已經有了但是確實又好像這個是不是有沒有發揮最大的功效那一般行政機關都有比較大家都已經有這樣的一個了解然後執行各方面所以在這個國營事業的部分現在如果我們從這個政府採購法這個部分"},{"start":10497.355,"end":10526.536,"text":"所以怎麼樣去針對政府採購法當然有的涉及到很專業很專業怎麼樣去因應從這個已經有的這些過去已經發生的案件然後現在正在這個偵辦中的案件在偵辦中的案件也能夠去了解才能夠不要再發生"},{"start":10528.074,"end":10551.679,"text":"不要再發生這樣的一個這是一個更重要的了偵辦中的他就偵辦當然希望那個積極偵辦當然從你們的去了解這個個案然後去解決防範未然甚至你們去了解這個個案的當下"},{"start":10554.696,"end":10582.205,"text":"也可以去聊去協助可以協助現在的檢調單位啊 是吧報告委員我們在案件申辦之後申辦移送之後如果發現該單位有需要再進行的措施那會提請他們去檢討改進那另外如果是案件比如說將來判決那檢方也會跟我們一些意見我們會做再訪判的工作"},{"start":10583.117,"end":10611.457,"text":"沒有錯但是偵辦中的部分也要積極的去了解也可以去協助你們積極的去了解之後你就可以協助檢調單位尤其是檢察官因為他們這個也有他們的極限各種這個協助各方的協助當然防範於未來是最重要好不好加油"},{"start":10616.633,"end":10622.433,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員那接下來我們請林倩琦委員詢答"},{"start":10634.619,"end":10655.647,"text":"好 謝謝我們的翁朝偉我想先請這個中油董事長方董事長還有核次長經濟部核次長和工程會主委我們今天是陳副主委來代表是 工程會陳副主委"},{"start":10658.001,"end":10679.199,"text":"謝謝幾位我們今天的主題當然就是我們中油三接的弊案本席在一開始先來關心一下三接工程的品質還有建造責任相關的問題因為目前二期的工程經費的福報產生了一些爭議但是同一批的業者在第一期的工程"},{"start":10679.719,"end":10704.734,"text":"也有一些問題跟一些爭議所以本席這邊來關心一下有關於工程品質的這個部分跟海岸的一個管理海岸的施工還有海岸的安全其實有一些相關性你們在中油公司在107年的10月26號決標了三接的工程然後是委託了台灣世西剛才我聽到很多委員也在談這個世西工程顧問公司的一些狀況但是施工是這個"},{"start":10708.297,"end":10729.338,"text":"黃昌建設跟這個泛亞工程來承攬那麼第一期呢重點是在港區興建這個防波堤那結構是大量的一個沉箱那麼設計上很重要的是不僅要抵抗強浪的這個衝擊那也要注意到海岸安全的一個品質但是施工的品質在那個階段就已經都被質疑了"},{"start":10730.198,"end":10752.695,"text":"防波堤的沉箱長寬高各25公尺但是比例上如果混凝土的配比不符合規範或者是化學生料的比例不對的話鋼筋跟混凝土的分離就會產生整個結構變成像豆腐渣這樣一個狀況因為本席也常常在海岸跑"},{"start":10753.195,"end":10769.362,"text":"你們這個東西防波堤已經在海岸的安全很多人都要注意了如果施工不良的話又更讓這樣一個安全產生更重大的一個危害但是在一些相關的聯盟像藻礁公投推動聯盟"},{"start":10770.282,"end":10785.56,"text":"在施工的階段就已經指出來有15座城鄉的結構破裂混凝土面積大量的剝落鋼筋水泥又外露這個看起來是很明顯的結構性的問題很重要的是後續還有工程船的擱淺"},{"start":10787.317,"end":10809.13,"text":"早焦的受損近年還有一些公安事故已經造成了7名工人的死傷監察院跟勞動部都已經要求中油的檢討看來三接的工程品質也有一些令人質疑的部分監照的失職還有內部管理的問題似乎在現階段都要很積極的來做一個處理"},{"start":10810.931,"end":10832.584,"text":"本席這邊要請教董事長的事這15座的破裂的城鄉的品質瑕疵究竟是怎麼發生的是設計錯誤還是材料不符還是建造單位疏於查驗第二個部分是建造過程當中有沒有定期來抽驗滾泥土的強度還有化學參比的一個比例"},{"start":10834.045,"end":10859.76,"text":"如果有或者是您在這邊沒有辦法很清楚的這個細節的回應的話會後是不是也可以把相關的資料給本席針對本席上面所指的問題那最後一個部分是那麼你們有沒有針對施工廠商跟建造單位啟動他這個工程品質相對違約的一個相關機制跟責任的救處那是不是可以請您針對以上問題很快的簡短的跟本席做一個回應謝謝委員讓我有機會就這個部分做說明"},{"start":10863.184,"end":10867.118,"text":"對於公司來講 對於工程的品質 它是品質至上的"},{"start":10868.334,"end":10895.006,"text":"這個品質是沒有什麼打折扣的空間對於這個城鄉破損的原因我特別說明一下破損的原因在哪裡並沒有說摻混比例不足的問題也沒有摻混特別的化學品在裡面那麼這個破損的原因是因為這個城鄉是在台北港的地去做預置預置之後它要放到一個暫存區去養護"},{"start":10896.647,"end":10924.306,"text":"那麼在剛開始的時候呢這個每一個城鄉暫存的距離不夠所以因此在港區裡面如果天氣不好的時候有湧浪去推頂這個城鄉呢就會造成城鄉之間的一個碰撞所以應該是在設計的這個部分可能有一些不太專業的地方沒有 是城鄉完成了以後放在暫存區的時候呢兩個城鄉之間的距離不夠"},{"start":10925.446,"end":10949.981,"text":"所以這你們就要跟海事相關的一些專業來做討論常常在工程本席這邊發現尤其台灣的海域在工程上大家就是工程做工程的可是針對特殊的地形或者是特殊的需要很少去諮詢或者是做比較更完整的一些討論所以做出來的東西要嘛地形不符或者是沒有了解到您剛才講到永浪的這個問題那這應該很多海事專業的人他們應該會了解"},{"start":10953.763,"end":10975.258,"text":"不同區域那麼海底跟這個海的這個變化那這就本席提出來一個問題啊對 所以不管你們是在哪一個階段那畢竟您說在暫存的時候那間距算的不夠就產生這樣一個問題對不對對所以它這中間還是有一些可以再檢討的部分嘛對不對我們也檢討了所以把暫存的距離把它放大"},{"start":10976.298,"end":10993.009,"text":"第二個原因就是當這個城鄉從台北港拖到三接所在地去定位完了以後需要把這個城鄉裡面要放置石塊還有沙去把它填滿填滿這些動作的話就必須要有機具去做"},{"start":10995.651,"end":11013.784,"text":"這個黃艙它做的時候它是用怪手沿著這個沉箱的頂去開過去以後去做這些相關的作為但是大家也曉得就是說這個怪手的話它是一個鋁帶 鋁帶帶動的這個鋁帶就會造成這個沉箱的上方"},{"start":11014.825,"end":11029.837,"text":"會去把它剝落造成它的傷害所以原因在這裡那後續的話我們就要求他們你要做這個事情的時候你應該在上面要鋪鋼板來去避免那個怪手的履帶跟"},{"start":11030.618,"end":11056.897,"text":"沉箱去接觸那麼後來也解決這類的問題所以這應該是一個施工技術你們可能過去沒有經驗或者是在過程當中沒有事先做好這個部分的一個討論對不對 對但是重點是在於說這個沉箱發現有破損你怎麼去處理那這個處理的過程中我們當然第一個要確定說你的鋼筋混凝土的比例有沒有用對不對那所以我們要求就是說你要去專心把這個取樣出來來看這個取樣的產品"},{"start":11059.939,"end":11085.155,"text":"是你們在檢測的時候對本席這邊就您剛才講的工程的部分當然有相關的專業可是本席這邊要跟您再次強調未來這個機會應該也很多所以你們在這個階段所碰觸到的問題本席聽起來就是沒有因應地理環境然後跟海事相關人員很確切的把可能每一個階段會施工的"},{"start":11085.695,"end":11111.474,"text":"產生技術性的這個問題把它在先前做好我想這應該給你們在下一個階段的這個工程的技術處理上你們應該再更縝密一點然後前面發生的狀況不要再發生才不會引起外界的一個疑慮所以你們剛才說這樣子弄好了之後可能因為前面的階段又產生了你們可能要再去專心去了解一下這結構上或者是混凝土的比例等等是不是OK我覺得這是連帶的"},{"start":11113.956,"end":11132.075,"text":"所以你們這其實也很容易讓人家本席剛才所提出來的那比例有沒有參混那或許在不是很專業的施工過程當中導致這些疑慮那我想這個應該不僅是你們內部要再做一個檢視那未來也不要再發生了是"},{"start":11132.295,"end":11148.335,"text":"好不好那這個是本席針對這個部分如果有試射你們在檢視的過程當中那有試射政府採購法比如說101條那如果有這個品質不佳或偷工減料的情勢您剛才講的是施工的這個部分嘛但是"},{"start":11148.695,"end":11170.331,"text":"如果因此而產生了本席所講的這些狀況我想你們應該要這個工程會不好意思你們要很清楚的釐清是不是有將這些業者假設有這個情況發生要登載在公報上依照我們的相關的法規目前聽忠友這樣講你們大概有了解施工的一個狀況"},{"start":11171.092,"end":11188.095,"text":"不過重點就是說公共工程我們如果能夠多一些專業的處理可以少一些後續大家的疑慮甚至搞不好真正萬一在這個過程當中大家不明白或者是真有一些觸法的情勢發生我想這都是大家不樂見的"},{"start":11189.036,"end":11206.925,"text":"所以基本上這個工程品質我們希望不要讓這個東西再成為海上豆腐渣也希望在你們施工的時候不要再去衝擊到原本都在海邊生活的環境跟人好嗎好 謝謝接下來我們就針對要請防務部 調查局還有這個廉政署"},{"start":11211.389,"end":11232.569,"text":"委員好謝謝這個很短的時間如果相關的訊息沒有辦法很快的回應再麻煩你們會後補一些資料我想今天這個主題很多都是針對媒體的揭露原本94億元的這樣一個價格然後在招標的過程當中引發"},{"start":11233.61,"end":11258.872,"text":"不僅是疑慮啦已經有這樣弊案的一個產生那基本上就是原本大家的這個估價到最後呢一路漲到150億220億那麼可能中游也有很令人很疑慮的這個部分所以產生這樣所謂的圖利的問題那不知道部長您對於原本的估價到後來受業者的一個暗示也好明示也好或者是指示也好那到最後"},{"start":11259.733,"end":11267.564,"text":"那個報價已經維護平常您覺得這樣子有沒有圖利的問題跟委員報告因為這個案件已經在"},{"start":11268.939,"end":11298.439,"text":"立案已經在調查偵辦中那我也很關心這個問題我相信檢察官他對這些媒體的報導會做一一的釐清那事實上這部分本席所講的剛才那個狀況就是說原本報價那業界大概都知道是差不多怎麼樣子的一個價格結果到最後出來的這個感覺讓人家很福報的這樣一個結果這個如果有這樣子的情勢發生應該基本上可能有影響而且可能到了一個圖利的"},{"start":11299.479,"end":11325.07,"text":"這部分法律上的一個評價要用證據來做一個認定那必須要經過調查那我相信整個委員官心的以及媒體所報導的這部分我相信檢調連辦案單位他們會去注意到這些的問題的一個調查釐清那調查的結果因為我們沒辦法去預設這個結果所以我們就尊重辦案單位的一個偵查的一個步驟跟計畫"},{"start":11327.335,"end":11349.476,"text":"好的 各位本席認為如果有剛才本席所講的這樣一個情勢那確實是已經到了一種圖利的階段當然您講的這個狀況是說目前在調查中那您不便做一些回應但是本席是認為剛才本席講的如果原先估價是如此那業界大概認為這樣估價合理可是卻很不合理的讓人感覺到福報"},{"start":11351.398,"end":11370.985,"text":"甚至有人很確定也是福報的話這樣子基本上應該是有一個圖利的行為產生了這是我們是就法論法跟就狀況而言但是針對這樣您當然是媒體的報導目前檢調在處理一切就依法跟依規來看最後的結果是如何"},{"start":11371.365,"end":11388.218,"text":"但是當然報載這個部分也值得您這邊參考一下在2022年跟2025年的檢舉報載說檢舉人皆被沉默以對是不是有人蓄意的押案你們是不是可以來啟動一下內部的一個了解"},{"start":11388.798,"end":11414.487,"text":"是不是有一個相關責任需要去做做釐清跟處理第二個部分是避免工程圖例被選擇性的辦案重大的弊案被吃案這是一般民眾常常會有疑慮的這個部分法務部你們應該建立一個重大採購案的檢舉專案的監督機制不管您覺得有沒有或者是您可能有一些不同的考量"},{"start":11414.867,"end":11435.355,"text":"但是我想民眾的疑慮或許你們可以透過一些像機制平台的建立或者是更積極的一點溝通讓大家對於這種疑慮去減輕我覺得也是你們的一個相關的責任雖然你們都依法論法但是本席常認為就是說法務部在某一些事情的處理上可以更積極 更親民一點"},{"start":11437.356,"end":11447.269,"text":"讓民眾了解然後也減少一些疑慮我覺得這應該是法務部除了你們在法律的專業以外那也應該讓民眾可以了解的您的看法呢"},{"start":11448.788,"end":11466.761,"text":"我想這個我們絕對沒有吃案那個只有檢舉的話有的我們都會收文都會入案那這邊該去走行政調查路線或者做司法調查或者是調查完了結果這部分我想我們都會做有一些的處理其實像廉政署他沒有接到檢舉的話"},{"start":11467.902,"end":11492.756,"text":"其實有前幾個他們有個廉政審查會他會請外聘委員來做一個檢視然後看看有沒有可以再調查的如果可以調查我們再重啟調查那如果說這個調查已經可以告一口斷絡我們會再請那個機關再去檢視你們是不是在做一個更積極的一個防攤的一個作為我想這個都是有這個機制若委員現在了解我們用書面來做一個回應"},{"start":11493.878,"end":11515.626,"text":"好的 謝謝部長所以希望法務部調查局你們在這個月提供一下內部的檢討跟相關的疑雲的釐清的相關報告給本席基本上對大家的疑問或者是更積極的一個溝通平台處理像本席剛才提到一個建議就是說是不是可以有一些重大採購案的監督機制"},{"start":11519.047,"end":11546.956,"text":"檢舉專案的這個監督機制的可能性那我覺得都可以做一個參考跟討論是 謝謝委員跟委員報告我們調查局是在今年8月的時候才收到一次的檢舉對 這是針對這個個案啦那本席今天談的是大概一整天大家針對這個個案延伸出很多的一個問題的詢問或者是某一些建議像剛才鄭委員就建議說有些東西我們現在碰到了那未來就不要再犯所以本席這邊也建議說那如果民眾有疑慮就是這個重大的這個"},{"start":11548.877,"end":11565.135,"text":"這個案好像有被施案的這個可能有設置或機構的單位應該都有受理的一個機制是一個告發檢舉的機制那我想這部分我們會後我們如果說我們再用書面來做一個會"},{"start":11567.477,"end":11588.368,"text":"所以相關的細節就麻煩你們再補一下相關的資料給我們做一個參考好 謝謝這麼的討論基本上是大家都希望一個司法正義那疑慮常常都會有那我們怎麼樣去溝通這樣一個疑慮我想這個應該是一個永不止息的必要性好 謝謝"},{"start":11591.377,"end":11615.937,"text":"好 謝謝林委員的質詢那麼剛剛林委員所提出的幾個所知或是請你們要提供的報告也麻煩法務部還有調查局會後要提供那麼今天幾個委員都非常關心就是像是這個檢舉告發機制你們現在的目前的SOP的作業程序是如何那麼如果說已經有的話那就是把你們現在做的"},{"start":11617.062,"end":11646.703,"text":"那就是告诉大家我们要想从制度面来了解那么不是说法务部自己说没有吃案那大家就会相信没有吃案而是要用事实用证据来说话这大家才会信任那么今天也感谢几个国营事业的董事长经理然后来本会来做备询那么我也期许就是方董事长中国方董事长这个案子基本上大家众所瞩目"},{"start":11647.687,"end":11658.078,"text":"也希望透過這個案子然後可以再要求中油公司的員工要更注意不要去違反了相關的貪污 貪毒 舞弊等等這些問題然後自己的裡面的中油的紀律要建立"},{"start":11667.223,"end":11692.008,"text":"好好謝謝好那我們今天對不起還有一個就是最後一位徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在那麼我們現在就是所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了我們今天的詢答就到此結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答覆者的話也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員會以及本會"},{"start":11695.779,"end":11708.832,"text":"好那麼委員審發會所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登不公報那並請相關機關以書面答覆好的那麼我們今天會議就到此結束現在散會好謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"165519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab813d2dfd0a7bcfcebfb6dfa65ed0fc1ddbd0c7f9f51010c40fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:19:40 - 12:29:21","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T12:19:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T12:29:21+08:00","duration":581,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.21596875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.17346875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.704718750000001,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.809093750000002,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.61909375,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.63596875,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.43721875,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.554718750000003,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.74034375,"end":23.875343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.145343750000002,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.719093750000003,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.92159375,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.28409375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.051593750000002,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.05971875,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.92034375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.814718750000004,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.84846875,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.25721875,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.822218750000005,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.87284375,"end":43.602218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.88909375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.07034375,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.90534375,"end":48.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.23846875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.065343750000004,"end":54.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.56659375,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.49034375,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.540343750000005,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.12159375,"end":73.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.94721875,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.95096875,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.00971875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.17409375000001,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.43534375,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.84846875000001,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.92846875000001,"end":91.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.72971875,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.70846875000001,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.19346875000001,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.79221875,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.95221875,"end":100.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.44971875,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.22971875,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.82409375,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.90721875000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.93534375,"end":130.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.95159375,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start"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一起各位先進 又請勞動部的洪部長請洪部長代言好 是 洪部長你好那麼關於今天談到大家要給老闆 勞保這個挹注每年要1000億以上你應該很高興的我們都要持續爭取啊"},{"start":32.967,"end":58.986,"text":"都要持續爭取給你錢你當然這個眼睛閉起來就是可能說因為我要砍武漢林啊那不是嗎還是什麼我們都還在爭取啊不是我們現在我原本就提案說要最少給你一千億難道你還有點猶豫主要是我們現在其實金額都我們現在爭取都是超過一千億啦一千億太少這兩年其實都超過一千億啊"},{"start":61.567,"end":79.413,"text":"我們都超過一千億啊所以我們希望爭取的金額是當然都是可能是要超過一千億啊所以你爭取多少今年明年的公務預算其實是一千兩百億然後再加上特別條例特別條例裡面一百億所以一年大概可以高達大概一千五差不多"},{"start":79.997,"end":107.902,"text":"我們都希望能夠持續在爭取因為確實勞保的財務確實勞保的財務都需要大家的幫忙請教一個問題勞工退休那個字體的6%這部分是我看了一下勞工真的只有字體這個是政府鼓勵6%的部分是免稅的那這個比例很低大概16%不到那這個原因你要不要講原因到底是什麼"},{"start":108.851,"end":115.53,"text":"各位說明其實我們在基金在運用的收益其實這20年平均起來都是大概6%以上"},{"start":116.977,"end":137.838,"text":"那其實字體比例比較低 如果仔細去看的話 其實比較高收入的勞工他比例就蠻高的那低收入的勞工 薪資比較低收入的勞工 他比例就比較低那個東西就是很簡單的一句話就打死了就可以回答了嘛阿請這麼多沒搞 又爬冠你拿六爬出來 來我就問你一個問題"},{"start":142.272,"end":170.209,"text":"一般的勞工退下來勞保加勞退一個月大概多少錢現在嗎現在但是因為現在勞保的勞保年金其實時間在還20年而已嘛不不不這可以大概你隨便Google一下都有這個數字大概多少勞保加勞退就等於是勞工退下來對他的生活的保障到底保障到哪裡大概兩萬多吧"},{"start":171.718,"end":188.905,"text":"兩萬多啦 加起來大概兩萬四左右那你知道現在一般的生活會要多少錢當然你會說 你開什麼火啦但是我們就平均嘛平均我看一下平均要三萬 喔起跳"},{"start":190.273,"end":205.848,"text":"所以對於就是說以現在的制度對於勞工的退下來的保障是不夠的這也就是為什麼6%來講的話一些收入比較低的根本就欠一家人不夠要拔光所以我剛剛講"},{"start":206.977,"end":234.614,"text":"我們勞保加勞退就等於是我一個勞工他推下來的一個所得大概兩萬四左右 兩萬四 兩萬五目前啦 因為很多勞保的年資還沒有到那麼長所以目前的數字是這樣那生活費 以目前的生活費大概三萬二起跳所以這個很明顯就是有一個gap大概有八千塊左右啊你再加一個勞動等於勞工的大家長啊"},{"start":235.629,"end":255.722,"text":"我們全台灣的勞工人數多少啊超過千萬差不多一千萬左右啦有人說九百多有人說一千萬你等於是一千萬勞工的大家長你要不要站在你的立場怎麼樣讓勞工退下來他的生活又暴漲"},{"start":256.562,"end":271.092,"text":"跟文說明其實第一個我們當然很希望更大的程度的來鼓勵勞工的自體因為目前以基金的收益率6%的話其實等一下 你是講6% 不願意講8月31號公佈的勞退基金只有4.78還有比舊資的少 舊資的8.19還有融退基金6.33同樣一個Umbrella你們在操作的"},{"start":285.262,"end":299.191,"text":"差賊 新制的勞退其實是不好的你是要6% 我看不到6%公佈到最新的9月底為止新制是7.697.69 就是勒就是是12.56對嘛"},{"start":300.652,"end":323.058,"text":"那我補充說明一下為什麼都輸給救治啊為什麼薪資要輸給救治啊沒有沒有差一截大概幾個一半啦為什麼我們對於基金的操作是公平對待所有金管的基金然後我們追求的是長期投資的效益那所以我們來看長期投資的效益其實我們就我們薪資跟救治其實收益都差不多"},{"start":324.438,"end":329.702,"text":"如果來看近10年救治7.92國保是7.69薪資也差不多這樣那如果15年其實反而救治是6.85國保是7.23薪資15年的話15年是"},{"start":346.495,"end":362.586,"text":"等一下喔 15年是6.91也是比舊制好 但是大概都差不多因為我們長期的消費是 沒沒沒 你聽好 你剛講的矛盾喔我要講最新的 你講舊制12點多 新制呢7點多 差這個"},{"start":364.787,"end":378.982,"text":"跟委員說明 因為這真的都要看比較看長期啦所以整體長期平均的話 大概都是6% 7%啦這樣子所以這個 我問部長啦 你有沒有什麼具體的做法或者政治的宣 政策上的宣 宣示"},{"start":380.844,"end":403.38,"text":"讓勞工的自體的比例提高跟文說明第一個我們當然現在我們其實也在研議那要怎麼樣來讓勞工的自體提高因為這個6%的假設6%以上7%的收益率的確會可以對於勞工的退休生活是有幫助的那要不要把6%提高到8%只是其實我覺得都是可以考慮的因為這是免稅"},{"start":406.172,"end":429.095,"text":"因為這個是免稅的部分我想我們都願意來跟其他部會來做討論但是第一個事情是的確我們看到比例提高重點是現在是確實比較低薪的勞工他自體的意願比較低我覺得我們要先克服這一段因為的確比較低薪的勞工他是更需要這件事情的那就是如何讓加薪嘛那你要怎麼提出"},{"start":430.516,"end":446.389,"text":"除了加薪我們也希望能夠再提出更多的誘因比方說如果勞工願意自提的話我們可以給他什麼樣子再多的誘因的協助我們也希望朝這個方向來提你知不知道我們現在勞工的平均薪資多少"},{"start":448.069,"end":452.816,"text":"目前如果老保的話大概3.63.6萬總出的主計長公佈了4萬8平均4萬8結果你們是中位數據有3萬6"},{"start":464.125,"end":490.085,"text":"然後退下來就全部加起來阿布拉登加起來老退加老保兩萬四你雞派鬼啦老公退休的請問你一千萬個老公退休老公有多少有多少人每年嗎有沒有這個數字退休老公有多少人可能要看一下新舊制的差別"},{"start":492.165,"end":508.225,"text":"我就是一個啦 你要想辦法你站在勞工的大家長的位置上想辦法大家是勞有所保啦 對不對這個老了退下來的我這個最少"},{"start":509.426,"end":526.617,"text":"minimum的生活能夠維持嗎剛才講老退家老保只有兩萬四生活的基本要三萬二最低三萬二我還沒跟你講到三萬五對不對而且你平均薪資就是三萬六這個東西來講來講的話是差很多的啦"},{"start":526.837,"end":549.214,"text":"跟我們說這也是為什麼我們連續10年調漲最低工資從原本最低工資2萬左右那現在已經接近到3萬那這也是其實都是希望對於相對比較辛苦的勞工朋友能夠從政府的角度來幫他們多幫忙的部分這是為什麼連續10年做最低工資調升的很重要的原因我就講說你要每年要1500億左右"},{"start":552.335,"end":568.903,"text":"我希望你plus把6%再往上調去找財經部這個我在財委會裡面我們都可以支持對不對這6%我們要誘引提高到10%可以嗎我覺得我們來評估跟研議吧這個事情這個方向一個月可以出來嗎一個月兩個月好不好兩個月把6%"},{"start":574.152,"end":577.881,"text":"那個天花板再往上掀up to18好不好好謝謝賴世寶委員發言人"}]}},{"id":"165518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abc7b4ad8b8d16b015bfb6dfa65ed0fc1ddbd0c7f9f51010c48f6a9c70dc4894db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:06:20 - 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白局長 謝謝村委員好部長好我們今天主要針對這個災保法裡面申請職災失能年金的勞工朋友以及繼續投保勞保的權益來做討論那目前每年核定職災失能的給付件數有多少"},{"start":38.288,"end":53.241,"text":"我們確認一下數字2000多2189件我們花了快一分鐘"},{"start":57.858,"end":58.399,"text":"2385件2385好你要還我一點時間那個我統計了這個那我們看一下"},{"start":73.083,"end":93.86,"text":"我統計了這個113年7月份到114年6月份核定件數大約是1595件我想請教一下部長你們這個核定率的公式是到底是怎麼樣因為我檢查了一下你們所有的核定率都破百職業傷害換算是111%職業病是162%"},{"start":103.689,"end":121.682,"text":"是這邊是你們的核定計算是怎麼樣因為104年開始10年都是這樣子我是有點看不太明白"},{"start":122.959,"end":145.097,"text":"委員好謝謝委員這邊指教這邊的核定件數包含核定幾副跟不幾副那上面如果是屬於幾副的話是職災案件你講大聲一點我們的核定件數包含核定是職災的案件跟核定不是職災的案件所以那個就是那所以那個可是"},{"start":148.962,"end":166.474,"text":"所以就是你們收件就是送件總共的這個送件的申請的案有多少的意思嗎是 跟委員這邊做報告 陳儒委員這邊所提的如果以總件數這邊總計27098件那職災的案件就是24190件那其中就是27098裡面扣掉24190裡面是核定不給付職災的案件所以這邊的核定率是89.27%"},{"start":179.52,"end":188.181,"text":"好你們這樣寫很容易讓人家看不懂因為我們不通過就不通過了很少有合定就是會講合定"},{"start":190.318,"end":213.141,"text":"我想我們可以在相關的表格把核定數怎麼去計算可以再做一個附註啦因為就是它等於是這個有幾副跟沒幾副有認定跟沒認定的部分其實它都把它包含在核定數裡面就算是母數你們要寫清楚一點不然就看起來很怪啦是我們在呈現的方式上可以再加註一下這個核定數的意思到底這件職業災害有沒有被核定"},{"start":214.121,"end":228.006,"text":"你說有每一件都有有核定不通過跟核定有通過但是我們通常很少會這樣講就是核定確認你是什麼處置的那我們要申請經費也是有沒有核定了"},{"start":229.025,"end":249.882,"text":"通過都是大部分是這樣嘛因為我不知道這個有沒有什麼你們所謂的勞動專業術語在裡面我是不知道但是我認為我們在這個表格呈現的幅度上面我覺得我們可以把它呈現得更清楚那個部長在當委員的時候我不曉得你們有沒有會一下就看明白還是怎麼樣"},{"start":251.581,"end":269.693,"text":"好就這個提醒一下那我再請教就是說那個職災失能給付勤領職災年金的比例大概是多少你們有統計嗎跟委員做報告如果以今年的前9個月來講的話我們的年金勤領的比例大概是76%76%好"},{"start":275.104,"end":299.215,"text":"那因為這個職貸失能年金他是分為這個完全失能嚴重失能跟這個部分失能那完全失能及嚴重失能都已經到喪失全部工作能力那也因此可以至少領到七成五成到七成及五成的這個月頭保薪資本期要關切的是"},{"start":301.052,"end":329.455,"text":"損失五成的工作能力但是只能勤領兩成的月頭保薪資那這一群部分失能的勞工朋友每年大概多少人然後佔領佔勤領職災年金的比例是多少該委員這邊做報告目前勤領部分失能年金的話目前還有在續領的是22人就22人而已嗎那沒有沒有很多"},{"start":330.629,"end":349.374,"text":"因為說到這邊我大概其他的人可能他選擇領一次那就是98年之前98以後他可以選擇如果說他的失能程度在我們的失能年金裡面有分完全失能嚴重失能跟部分失能98年是個分水嶺對好那說到這好"},{"start":354.875,"end":370.101,"text":"因為說到這邊我特別回想就是說在當年我們在說災保法條文討論到最後只剩下最後一個爭議點就是職災勞工如果有其他社會保險權益是不是會受影響而不能請領"},{"start":372.161,"end":397.669,"text":"當時本席擔任召委那時候我們有特別要堅持說一定不能受到影響否則就需要再協商那還好當時也謝謝勞動部有從善如流那到今天就是說他們的這個勞健保權益勞工的勞健保權益都還在那也看到勞保局有特別強調這群勤領20%的部分失能年金者將來都還可以領到這個勞保"},{"start":399.909,"end":425.599,"text":"的這個老年年金那局長是不是當時您是保險司的司長相信這些都記憶猶新啦我應該都沒有講錯啦好那但是我同時我也發現在債保法的58條規定被保險人或者其受益人因為不同保險事故同時請領本保險或其他社會保險年金及副食"},{"start":427.4,"end":446.112,"text":"本保险年金给付金额因考量被保险人或其受益人的勤领年金给付数目金额总类及其他生活保障因素予以减额调整减额调整比率50%为上限"},{"start":451.006,"end":477.728,"text":"那這個問題在於就說你們的這個職災保險的QA解釋請領執職災保險失能年金與勞保老年年金給付的合計金額如果超過職災保險失能年金所採的平均月投保薪資數額本局將依規定自其原領職災保險失能年金辦理扣減那我們從這個"},{"start":479.009,"end":493.28,"text":"裡面的這個文字義來看喔到底你們是給人家扣多少是到底到底是扣多少因為如果如果說"},{"start":494.93,"end":512.59,"text":"老保老年年金他本來可以領到這個月頭保薪資的50%那他勢必就是超過這個職災失能年金的20%所以最後他到底可以領到這個合併的年金是多少"},{"start":513.935,"end":540.757,"text":"是跟委員做報告也非常謝謝委員當初在災保法那時候立法的時候我們除了擴大家保的一個對象那針對己父部分也從保障勞工的權益部分做了一些突破所以像委員剛才提到在災保法58條裡面針對如果被保險人他發生不同的保險事故像剛才提的他可能領了職災的失能年金那之後老年的時候他一樣可以領老年年金那這兩份年金加起來的金額"},{"start":541.567,"end":564.941,"text":"不要高於他在栽保這一部分的投保薪資平均投保薪資舉例來說如果以植栽部分他領的是一個兩萬塊那在那個老年年金部分假設加起來是三萬塊那這樣兩萬加三萬就會變成是五萬塊可是他的栽保部分的平均投保薪資也許是四萬五那我們就會做那個差額部分就不給因為如果我們"},{"start":565.681,"end":581.954,"text":"用一個薪水就是說這個薪水三萬塊的來計算的話那像這樣子失能的部分兩成他領六千嘛那這個老闆年金的部分他要領一萬五加起來是兩萬一但是你們"},{"start":582.975,"end":610.146,"text":"好像就直接是就給人家扣一半那個失能那個失能兩成的部分你們就直接扣一半如果他的災保的投保薪資沒有超過剛才的兩萬一那在領老年的時候我們不會扣他災保的錢你確定不會扣嗎不會那委員剛才提到的那個個案是不是有什麼特殊的狀況是不是可以容我們會後可以跟委員這邊做請教因為他看起來是有些失能的就你們都直接把人家扣掉"},{"start":612.14,"end":630.579,"text":"委員是不是可以容這一部分就像剛剛講原則部分我們去做一個處理那如果個案部分的個案狀況我們來了解我想是這樣喔我是特別想要強調就是說可以領執在失能年金20%的勞工朋友他的工作能力損失至少超過50%"},{"start":632.561,"end":656.621,"text":"所以即使他今天重回職場了他的這個投保薪資可能比受傷錢還低那幾年過去了就算這個平均月投保薪資是採計最高5年的平均可以領的這個老年年金還是比這個不發生職災當時可以領的少了很多然後你們"},{"start":657.942,"end":671.52,"text":"如果再扣這個職災失能年金的額度這樣是不是一種變相對於這個職災勞工的懲罰因為就是你們就扣了"},{"start":675.428,"end":690.918,"text":"因為原則是這樣但是實際上面的操作當然個案部分我想請委員再讓我們了解一下個案那我請我們勞保局來跟委員辦公室來了解一下這個實際的個案狀況是怎麼樣因為其實不管他的這個勞保局"},{"start":694.72,"end":715.098,"text":"他們的這個投保薪資是多少本席是認為就是說在這個職災失能年金的部分其實一毛錢都不該扣那這個部分我要請你們特別去研議不管你們那個換算那個薪水是多少"},{"start":716.379,"end":740.393,"text":"那到底有沒有超過怎麼樣的總額其實本席都認為那個都不應該扣那因為同樣的道理這個職災傷病給付每年都超過五萬五千人這裡面其實也有很多我們的原住民的勞工朋友還有以及部長一直非常關心的這個外籍的勞工朋友們所以他們的職災其實至少高於全產業的四成"},{"start":741.814,"end":768.257,"text":"那所以尤其是這幾年外籍的這個勞工朋友他們是更高的那我想說我們都很關心不論是種族國籍年齡性別這麼多的勞工朋友是不是都有回到職場以及回去以後投保薪資到底有沒有受影響所以這個部分我也特別提出來那針對剛剛特別講的這個職債私人年金的部分那我希望你們可以重新來研議"},{"start":770.117,"end":791.662,"text":"我們來評估一下好不好就是相關的做法那我覺得可能有需要我們也需要更多的個案然後我們透過這些個案來檢視他的實際的狀況然後來來看看我們的原則是不是要來做一些調整好謝謝謝謝那你們是大概一個月可以兩個月好不好兩個月好謝謝好謝謝陳盈委員發言接下來請賴"}]}},{"id":"165528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab745547e2c9cb953dbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d3a9647aa96f21cfc3afc8281b51035285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:37:43 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13:52:18","影片長度":"00:14:35","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T13:37:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:52:18+08:00","duration":875,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.498468750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.603468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":38.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.47221875,"end":48.479093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.64784375,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.414718750000006,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.09721875,"end":68.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.50096875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.81721875000001,"end":76.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.76909375000001,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.94971875,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.43471875,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.65409375,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.95659375000001,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.64846875,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":101.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.71971875000001,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.90909375000001,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.81159375,"end":111.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.77721875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.58659375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.48846875000001,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.59346875000001,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.39909375000002,"end":129.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.86284375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.99346875,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.68909375,"end":136.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.27534375000002,"end":144.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.37534375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.02471875,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.37034375000002,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.80846875,"end":155.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.76596875,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.49971875,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.82409375,"end":164.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.29221875000002,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.35971875,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.83221875,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.40534375000001,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.2065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謝謝主席 請一下洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":15.509,"end":37.476,"text":"不然我們今天委員會就是審議勞保條例跟就業服務法的修正草案的大體詢答那我看是這樣子就是在勞保條例的修正當中不分黨派的委員大概就"},{"start":38.576,"end":60.713,"text":"政府撥補成為勞保基金的財源跟勞保的財務由政府負擔最終給負責任是大家很有共識比較遺憾的是各政黨的委員有共識可是看起來是行政立法沒有共識"},{"start":62.185,"end":90.488,"text":"我從上一個會期就要求勞動部必須要救這兩個相關的規定提出版本可是我看你們也不提啊我們很願意在審議的時候我們一起來討論部長你知道審議的時候支持跟提版本的差異嗎是你說說看"},{"start":92.428,"end":118.892,"text":"呃 當然呃不像我們其實對這個事件的聲音我們還是是很開放的意見啊開放喔欸 民進黨長期都講說欸 國家在 勞保不會倒可是卻不願意讓它入法安定 安定全國勞工的我們沒有不願意 我們是同意的喔 那你們假如同意就是行政怠惰啦"},{"start":120.793,"end":146.579,"text":"你們假如同意就是行政怠惰我在上一個會期就跟部長要求過兩次希望執政團隊可以表態勞保是超過一千萬人口啊等於台灣兩個人就有一個人是投勞保的那執政團隊連"},{"start":151.084,"end":174.896,"text":"讓最終己負責任入法都不願意我們是願意的那我就說只要願意就是行政怠惰嘛我們是很清楚我們是我們其實現在在這部分這本來就是我們的政治部長我就說自題版本是一種表態審議的時候贊成是一種附和"},{"start":177.335,"end":201.194,"text":"特別是以行政機關來講委員之間有的時候在審議的時候表示贊同是因為委員要負責看的法案太多所以我沒有注意到這一塊那某一個委員提出了 我表示贊同那你們對於自己主管的業務的法律"},{"start":203.902,"end":221.02,"text":"一方面表示贊同一方面覺得應該做另外一方面不提版本不提版本就是到時候通過的條文就是委員版本並不是民進黨執政的行政院勞動部提的版本"},{"start":222.452,"end":247.477,"text":"我這樣講有沒有道理跟委員說我們在審議的時候我想我們會對版本的內容包括是文字上面我們會提出我們很明確的意見文字上面我還真的不知道你能就這幾個字我不知道你能怎麼你是不是可以把給付責任改成支付責任還是怎麼樣要不然大的概念大的概念你已經放棄了"},{"start":248.953,"end":266.214,"text":"你難道要到委員會來就很細的文字問題來做溝通這個你覺得是勞動部應該要做的我不是說文字不能修正我只是說文字的修正是知為末節的東西"},{"start":269.059,"end":278.528,"text":"站在主管全國勞工權益 保障權益勞工政策的勞動部 這個沒有版本本席對於執政黨非常的失望因為我已經上一屆不談 這一屆包括部長來接部長以後 我大概就提醒了三次"},{"start":293.393,"end":320.114,"text":"因為這個是草野大家不要說草野委員這個是全國人民共同的期盼為什麼呢因為我們的經濟奇蹟來自勞工的努力可是國家因為勞保的設計讓退休的勞工的生活一直處在很不安定性的一個狀況"},{"start":322.817,"end":348.158,"text":"執政團隊連做這樣子的宣示都不願意我其實還蠻絕望的 部長我說真的特別是這個會期 已經那麼多委員的版本進來了你們不願意 那你們覺得說討論法案的時候 只要你們有參與意見只要你們表示贊同 就是你們的立場那要這個行政團隊幹嘛"},{"start":352.452,"end":381.311,"text":"不然我這樣說有沒有道理還是你還是覺得說可以沒有版本然後作為主管機關的勞動部對於這麼重要的一個法案可以沒有版本然後就討論的時候就說 欸 贊同楊耀委員的提案跟委員說明 其實在 因為這個議題跟這個議案其實也涉及到很多在行政院裡面很多的單位"},{"start":382.935,"end":411.267,"text":"尤其也是涉及到包括財主單位那 喔 喔 部長你是勞動部的部長那勞工保險條例由 由衛王委員會審議所以你就提你的版本就可以了至於後續的後續的行政團隊之間要法案過了並不是你不提版本法案就不過啊民進黨是少數黨啊"},{"start":412.816,"end":428.359,"text":"不一定有跟條文有什麼意思委員我們對於條文是有想法的然後我們也贊成這個概念有想法沒有做法我們有想法的然後我們也有相關的其實我們在這裡面的評估的眼裡那我們在審議的時候我們會很清楚表達我們的看法還是你現在要表達看法嗎你現在想想看反正後面也沒有委員啦我耽誤耽誤稍微一點時間沒關係啊"},{"start":439.765,"end":464.905,"text":"你現在講講看委員在大的方向上當然我們是同意包括撥補的入法包括最終責任這幾個入法的那裡面當然也會當然我們認為其實應該要對檢討的時間點那檢討的時間區段那我們也會有一些看法所以那你們為什麼不提版本呢我這樣子講啦齁保定政府撥補其實是"},{"start":468.305,"end":496.972,"text":"各黨派的委員在幫你們做後續的補救因為你們已經坐在前面了只是把他入法由政府負擔最終己負責任也是民進黨政府先喊出國家債勞保不會倒我不知道你們為什麼這樣子的法案推不出來啊我覺得太不負責任了"},{"start":498.733,"end":508.48,"text":"我們並不是不負責任 我們很願意在這個事情上面負起對勞保該負的責任我想行政團隊態度是清楚的我在這裡14年了我不清楚啊我對你們的態度我還真的不清楚啊我連要求你們提個版本你們都提不出來"},{"start":526.482,"end":555.059,"text":"部長你有沒有知道這個應用是什麼這個影響就是到最後是跨黨派的委員照顧體現了照顧全國勞工的決心可是執政團隊對這件事情並不在意我們沒有不在意不是不是你們在意我們如果不在意我們會逐年的都去跟行政院爭取越來越多的撥補的金額這當然就是我們非常在意這件事情"},{"start":556.693,"end":584.046,"text":"我現在在跟你討論法案我是說你一直在撥補嘛所以我們提案讓你的撥補有更明確的法源嘛你自己倒是不願意懂我的意思嗎不是啊我不知道你搖頭的意思是什麼啦不過呢就是從具體的事項來看"},{"start":585.936,"end":609.807,"text":"你們就是不願意啦你們只要願意 我不相信這樣這麼簡單的條文你們擬不出來而且不是 不是說很短的時間要你們擬出來普通話其實真的喔 欸 是覺得還蠻 還蠻失望的啦就是說"},{"start":611.007,"end":631.576,"text":"民進黨在國會弱勢已經一年多了你們難道沒有想到說你們縱使沒有版本也會有跨黨派的不要說在野黨的委員像我執政黨的委員我也要提出來啊為什麼 因為每天都在討論勞保什麼時候要倒嘛"},{"start":633.191,"end":640.633,"text":"最少最終 最終己負責任必須要入法 這個是最簡單這個是簡單 再簡單不過的事情嘛這樣說不出來啊我還是要提醒藉由一個最新的民調來提醒部長啊就是說普發現金啊"},{"start":658.467,"end":679.122,"text":"行政院把超徵的稅款拿來普發現金啦台灣的民意調查37%的人認為是立法院給的只有22%覺得是行政院給的部長 很多東西不是說我們自己想自己對就是結論啦"},{"start":690.39,"end":711.141,"text":"我不知道這樣說下去會太久沒 我也問一下好了啦幹嘛拖到時間啊我們在剛才講的普發現金的國安任性特別條例的特別預算裡面有5400多億 勞保基金的撥補只有100億啊"},{"start":713.783,"end":726.411,"text":"部長在分配這個超徵收稅款的時候我就有要求部長必須要去大力爭取結果你爭取不到2%其實我們是在公務預算有爭取了1200不是1200不夠嘛不是說你清二萬落去勞保就一刀永逸嘛不是嘛"},{"start":740.287,"end":765.647,"text":"那為什麼有多出來的稅收你沒有能力去跟行政院講要多撥一點好 那你們不撥 你們就自己想說我做一個大膽的假設啦假如說一開始行政院就把這五千多億全部撥補勞保跟健保啊在野黨不敢反對啦"},{"start":766.923,"end":795.705,"text":"我剛剛講過了 健保是全民共享啊老保 台灣兩個人裡面就有一個是老保人口可是你們不做這樣子的處理然後繞了一大圈還是按照在野黨的想法普發現金沒關係沒關係 要結束了這個 我還是提醒部長"},{"start":797.267,"end":819.667,"text":"在國會沒有過半是已經一年半的事情了所以很多政策在推動就是必須要合法、合理、合情為什麼我說特別預算假如撥給勞保大家不會有意見"},{"start":823.919,"end":849.88,"text":"因為第一個原因是因為稅收本身就是財富的重新分配分配給比較弱勢的勞工沒有人敢反對第二個就是經濟好才會稅收多稅收多才會有多餘的稅金可以分配"},{"start":852.835,"end":871.12,"text":"經濟的創造者是勞工就這兩個這麼簡單的理由那你們還一直活在全面執政的時代裡面我有很多事情我也沒有辦法謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝楊耀委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab5b9e5c6c2ea05316bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d3a9647aa96f21cfc7884b307e7568acc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:52:04 - 13:03:49","影片長度":"00:11:45","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T12:52:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:03:49+08:00","duration":705,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.99534375,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.484718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.535343750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":29.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.29221875,"end":30.878468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.11034375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.51534375,"end":67.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.58159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.81846875000001,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.96596875,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.28221875,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.97971875000002,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.24971875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.17721875,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.76721875,"end":176.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.77096875,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.71971875,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.53784375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.32659375,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.61159375000003,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.64096875,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.91471875000002,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.90159375000002,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.41596875000002,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.62596875000003,"end":216.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.41909375,"end":216.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.16096875000002,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.86909375000002,"end":253.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.70846875,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.73346875000004,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.15471875000003,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.17096875000004,"end":278.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.23846875000004,"end":265.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.45784375,"end":265.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.70909375,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.82096875,"end":295.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.85034375000004,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.41534375000003,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.66221875,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.74659375000005,"end":336.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.48471875,"end":342.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.95596875,"end":345.85034375000004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我們請部長請洪部長洪委員好部長好 部長我先就剛剛委員有特別垂詢就是說我們勞保其實在之前你們就已經有講過政府一定是負最終的責任是這個從以前到現在就是這樣子態度上是 做法上也是就都是這樣子對"},{"start":32.671,"end":53.179,"text":"所以我希望就是說那未來也希望朝野能夠有一個共識如果未來真的要入法的話如果真的入法其實這個應該是大家都有共識的就是政府負最終的一個責任那另外部長我想請教就是說我們現在的這個勞工退休"},{"start":54.139,"end":80.009,"text":"退休金這個有分三大就是說一個是勞保一個是勞退一個是自行投資那這個有關這個勞工自己提撥6%的這個部分之前很多人希望就是說政府是不是也要鼓勵勞工來自行提撥這個6%那我們看到現在目前為止就是有超過85%的勞工"},{"start":82.35,"end":97.357,"text":"是沒有自提沒有這個自己提撥那這樣子的話我們這個勞動部這樣要怎麼樣來鼓勵勞工確保未來退休的生活能夠更穩定是不是"},{"start":98.037,"end":116.685,"text":"可以自己来提拨6%甚至我们之前也在提到劳工如果自己提拨政府是不是鼓励也加就是加码我不知道说部长你针对这一部分怎么样去鼓励劳工可以自行提拨"},{"start":118.153,"end":139.079,"text":"跟文說明的確現在整體現在總體的數字來看看起來字體的比例沒有到很高但是如果仔細去分析的話可以看到相對比較高所得勞工他字體的比例就高很多那這當然有幾個原因第一個原因是因為這個其實我們現在在整個薪資勞退"},{"start":139.919,"end":152.514,"text":"的投資的效益上面大概都超過6%幾%其實這就整體來說從定存的角度來說這其實效益都是很不錯的所以其實高收入老公他覺得這個對他來講是有幫助他就願意"},{"start":154.696,"end":179.885,"text":"可是的確對於比較低薪的勞工他就會比較多的考慮他生活上面的負擔等等所以我們其實現在也在研議那怎麼樣子我們覺得政府應該多出一點資源那怎麼樣子來鼓勵或者是來刺激其實勞工願意自體的意願尤其是比較低薪的勞工因為按理來說其實低薪的勞工其實是需要更多的幫助的因為低薪的勞工他按照他現在的這個勞退的繳納的狀況他其實"},{"start":183.066,"end":206.434,"text":"在退休以後他還是會比較辛苦的所以其實照理來說應該是更幫助大家所以這也是為什麼我們也看到立法院有一些黨團那有提案比方說如果願意自提的話那是不是政府要補1%或者是什麼的那我說這個各種方法我想我們都願意來考慮那你們有朝著這個方向去思考嗎這個請"},{"start":209.565,"end":231.273,"text":"報告委員那有關這個鼓勵自體的部分那我們已經有在做一些研議和規劃那我們希望說用更多的這個宣導的宣達的方式我覺得宣導應該不好如果有用的話從以前你們就是希望勞工能夠自體6%應該就有用了那為什麼還有85%的勞工沒辦法自體"},{"start":234.014,"end":254.424,"text":"所以我觉得你用宣导的方式我觉得是没有用那是不是可以用更积极的方式就像刚刚部长讲的比如说劳工他自提1% 2% 3%那政府是不是可以鼓励就鼓励性质的比如说也加码加码1% 2% 3%这样子可以这样做吗"},{"start":255.044,"end":268.778,"text":"跟委員說其實很坦誠的說從勞動部角度我們當然都不反對政府怎麼樣加碼可是這的確牽涉到現在接下來他也要有裁員那在現在整個中央政府的財政狀況第一個"},{"start":271.34,"end":294.792,"text":"目前整个中央政府财政的预度也大幅的降低所以我觉得我们愿意来跟组总来争取我觉得你们应该也要去试算一下就是说如果这个劳工自己提拨的话那鼓励性质比如说加1%那这样子到底会增加多少的预算我觉得应该可以去试算我们可以来做一些相关的计算对"},{"start":295.212,"end":315.545,"text":"那另外就是说也有这个譬如说他自体6%的话那我们现在看到就是说每月薪资自体6%那这个当年度是可以结税就不列入当年的这个薪资所得课税可是等他要退休要领取的时候就会再合并计算"},{"start":316.465,"end":342.402,"text":"所以是不是也可以从另外一个角度去看关于我们这个劳工朋友自提的这个部分是不是可以有这样子的一个免于扣缴所得税的这样子鼓励的方式我觉得你们应该也可以朝这个方向去做现在已经免税对啊这个是当年度免税嘛那等你要退休要领的时候就会合并计算嘛"},{"start":346.364,"end":370.716,"text":"其實應該不太會去達到這部分對基本上應該就是免稅的這6%是免稅但如果要把這個免稅的額度6%再往上這當然就要跟財政部討論所以我這邊是不是可以請部長針對這一部分譬如說我們勞工朋友字體6%那未來也許這個字體上限到10%那這個是不是可以就是"},{"start":371.576,"end":396.688,"text":"免這個所得稅 課稅我覺得這個也許可以讓勞工有所心動那其實勞工的退休生活能夠穩定這個我覺得這個也是我們勞動部應該要做的就像剛剛部長有特別提到其實大部分的勞工他退休退休之後的月退大多數都只有領一萬多塊大多數那如果像這樣子的話"},{"start":397.828,"end":416.767,"text":"甚至有的還不到一萬塊那如果這樣子的話如果可以鼓勵他在年輕工作的時候他就自體好這個自行提撥那未來他退休的生活應該可以更穩定那政府應該鼓勵鼓勵不是只有宣傳總是要有一些我想我們應該可以規劃一些誘因對"},{"start":418.468,"end":444.388,"text":"可以嗎 我認為我們可以朝向規劃誘因的方式來進行另外部長我再接下來請教就是說我們目前台灣的這個平均每年的工時這個2024年是2030個小時那比前一年就是2023年的這個工時2020個小時還要高那我想請教就是說這個我們"},{"start":446.129,"end":468.682,"text":"這個平均每年的這個工時在世界各國的排名已經是排名第五那也許會有一樣一種狀況就是說其實在公司或者是這個勞工可能是缺工那大部分如果需要接單這個公司接單之後那需要勞工朋友可能要加班"},{"start":469.422,"end":491.668,"text":"去做这项工作加班嘛那我想请教部长就是说像这样子的一个我们现在有规定就是每周这个工作差不多40个就是40个小时嘛那其实有很多劳工朋友还要再加上加班那如果是这样子的话其实现在目前"},{"start":492.648,"end":514.211,"text":"一般的傳產大家會覺得說缺工缺工很厲害那就從這些原本在工作的這些勞工就希望他們能夠加班那當然他的工時又增加了嘛那一般的新進可能這個社會新鮮人看到這家公司哇可能生意很好24小時都要加班"},{"start":515.492,"end":530.214,"text":"就不敢進來這間公司所以就變成說這個是一個惡性循環可能新進的勞工不敢進來這家公司因為要加班每天都要加班原本就的這些勞工"},{"start":531.015,"end":550.009,"text":"他可能工時就一直累進一直增加也沒辦法得到一個適當的休息我會覺得說這也是一個惡性的循環怎麼樣讓企業主能夠有新的能夠得到好的人才進到公司來"},{"start":550.649,"end":566.31,"text":"那又讓勞工一般的勞工能夠得到一個好的休息我覺得這個應該也是勞動部這邊要去好好的思考那怎麼樣讓我們的工時能夠再下降整體工時我不是說整週的就是說整體的工時"},{"start":567.54,"end":589.728,"text":"跟文文說明在這公使問題我想因為這幾天大家都看到這個統計第一個是說其實並不是我們並不是排在全世界所有國家的第五因為其實他整個拿進去排名的國家的數字並不是用全世界全或所有的所有的國家第二個是的確我們"},{"start":591.449,"end":618.663,"text":"我們之所以在數字上面會是這個成績有一個蠻大的原因是因為我們的部分工時的比例比較低可是如果是全時工時比別的國家的全時比全時的話那整體來說我們的數字可能比鄰近的亞洲國家都還要帶來的低一點但我講這個並不是說我們的工時就沒有必要改善我覺得也還是有那剛剛有也有剛剛委員剛剛講的幾個問題第一個問題確實有些部分的行業他目前他可能他整體的這個"},{"start":620.164,"end":645.201,"text":"这个出口的状况比较好所以他需要加班所以他有缺工所以这也是为什么我们其实现在我们也在近期的一些跨国劳动力的政策上面我们做出了一些精进或者一些多的一些开放这也是其中一个原因那第二个是我们其实也持续的在提高最低工资那最低工资跟工时之间的关系也是我们也希望减少一些可能相对比较低薪的劳工他因为低薪所以他就觉得我"},{"start":645.581,"end":662.907,"text":"我必須更大程度的加班才有辦法到一定的收入這也是把最低工資這10年不斷提高的重要的做法這是實際上面的做法那當然我說針對工時的問題我想我們也可以再做一些檢討在做法上面"},{"start":663.667,"end":682.538,"text":"有沒有可以再更大力度的比方說我們在希望大家去簽更好的團體協約更照顧勞工生活需求的團體協約的狀況下我們也願意來做但的確這個這個問題裡面裡面有些分是說統計的方式的形式也有方式實際作為的方式我們也都希望能夠更努力這樣"},{"start":683.358,"end":698.631,"text":"我希望就是勞動部就是照顧勞工勞工退休後的生活其實勞動部也是要去照顧所以我剛剛從幾個面向那希望說勞動部針對這個字體的這個部分應該要有更大的一個誘因好不好謝謝黃秀芳委員發言這個我們請委員會可以發便當 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12:51:59","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T12:46:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T12:51:59+08:00","duration":331,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.04596875,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.84909375,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.203468750000003,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.60409375,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":39.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.37909375,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.32409375,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.05221875,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.744093750000005,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.97784375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.27721875,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.38034375000001,"end":95.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.18471875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.04909375000001,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.50846875,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.52034375000001,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.07596875,"end":122.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.79221875,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.77096875000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.78784375000001,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.73284375000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.77909375,"end":130.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.97721875000002,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.37721875,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.29221875000002,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.28346875,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.84846875,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.61034375,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.58471875,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.98534375,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":160.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.86659375000002,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.07909375,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.11596875,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.27596875,"end":190.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.77784375000002,"end":189.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.35971875,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.51096875000002,"end":202.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.71659375000002,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.07096875000002,"e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13:29:28","影片長度":"00:13:39","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T13:15:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:29:28+08:00","duration":819,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.388468750000001,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.274093750000002,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.438468750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.60034375,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.089718750000003,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.11471875,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.56159375,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.88034375,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.78409375000001,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.70784375000001,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.76596875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.26784375000001,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.48284375,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.98784375000001,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.42159375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.31596875000001,"end":103.62659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.86284375000001,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.77784375,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.15534375000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.53909375,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.80284375000002,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.77284375000002,"end":140.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.98784375,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.58471875,"end":157.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.74471875,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.74346875,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.72221875000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.10159375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.65846875,"end":169.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.08034375,"end":193.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.38034375,"end":221.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.02159375000002,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.53596875000002,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.10096875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.26534375000003,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.91034375,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.58096875,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.20534375000003,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.70721875,"end":246.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.93346875,"end":272.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.03471875,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.78534375000004,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.18096875000003,"end":286.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.84721875,"end":285.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.04534375000003,"end":322.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.98534375,"end":293.28471875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謝謝主席 請我們洪部長還有我們調評師黃市長有請洪部長對 很好以及黃市長"},{"start":18.871,"end":37.805,"text":"好 部長那在今年7月22號我們立法院有三讀通過公務人員任用法第36條之一那其中有附帶決議全序部於三個月內三修公務人員留職挺薪辦法放寬公務人員申請"},{"start":38.706,"end":66.902,"text":"育嬰升價的留職挺薪試遊讓公部門提供更友善的育嬰環境那當然這些部分我看你看考試院全序部動作也很快在8月26號他就預告公務人員留職挺薪辦法第5條第6條第9條的修正草案那在10月9號考試院院會通過修正公務人員留職挺薪辦法然後請我們行政院同意"},{"start":68.322,"end":91.948,"text":"後發布實施那這個辦法目前據我們了解已經由行政院人事行政總署報到行政院近日就可以就會公告那我們今天針對工人員留職停薪辦法修正那他是因為因應我們目前社會少子化少子女化及高齡化的社會趨勢營造友善的職場"},{"start":93.388,"end":120.184,"text":"那請問一下部長那針對公務人員這部分他們已經開始在做那針對我們受僱勞工的育嬰留職停薪這部分我們勞動部有沒有準備有沒有版本跟文說明其實因為在這個薪工法裡面那育嬰留停其實一個很重要概念是因為這個雙親他其實有撫養權有撫養權"},{"start":123.567,"end":132.894,"text":"那是因为这个抚养权的这个义务那所以他会有这个育婴流亭推导出这个一个育婴流亭的概念这样子"},{"start":133.715,"end":156.03,"text":"那當然對於阿公阿嬤那帶小孩育孫的部分那這當然這個涉及的層面就更大那也包括怎麼去做這些撫養權的認定所以的確我們自己在思考是說如果今天確實假設有案例他的撫養權是有判給阿公阿嬤判給這個"},{"start":157.831,"end":187.109,"text":"爷爷奶奶的话是不是从这个角度来去思考这件事情而不是所有的这个阿公阿嬷都能够有所谓的育孙好所以部长你也知道今年一月就有这个新闻报道那有一个实际照顾孙子女的老公他本身也有监护权可是后来他申请育婴留职停薪津贴的时候被劳保局驳回所以我们今天提出就是凸显"},{"start":187.625,"end":203.715,"text":"我們受雇勞工照顧孫子女其實是沒有得到國家政策的支持那當然我們這個案子那個本黨的邱若豪委員跟本席已經提出了性別平等工作法的修正草案"},{"start":204.555,"end":232.669,"text":"修正育有孫子女得申請育嬰留職停薪育嬰留職停薪的部分那當然本席現在也進一步針對就業保險法來修正草案在孫子女三歲前得申請育嬰留職停薪的津貼那剛剛部長有提到你說針對那個阿公阿嬤有實際照顧就像我剛剛講的不是 是他有撫養權"},{"start":233.709,"end":251.89,"text":"对他有抚养权是法院判的抚养权对那刚刚我讲那个我们实际的状况他已经法院有监护权可是他去申请这育婴留职津贴可是老保局是驳回的对那因为这还涉及到修法因为老保局驳回的原因是因为现在的法规就是这样了"},{"start":252.631,"end":272.128,"text":"那當然如果要往這個方向的話他也要涉及修法可是哪些範圍比較適當而且相關的配套該是什麼我想這部分的確要花一點時間來研議因為整個運營留庭的制度包括涉及到性供法也涉及到救保法我想我也很清楚只是這裡面可能就不一定是所有的範圍都打開就說只要"},{"start":273.129,"end":292.376,"text":"阿公阿嬤去照顾这个孙子或孙女就能够适用因为很多他的这个实际的抚养权没有在阿公阿嬷这边部长其实针对这部分我知道你担心说这个整个开放下去影响的层面会不会很大"},{"start":293.396,"end":311.488,"text":"那可是其實針對部分我們也大概了解過其實我們推估我們60歲以上受雇勞工有孫子女我們預計大概有孫子女大概60歲大概60歲推估我們60歲以上那從我們到去年底"},{"start":312.648,"end":341.668,"text":"60岁以上受雇劳工的比例其实在所有比例里面整个比例里面他占不到4%只有3.9多%所以其实他的影响是非常有限所以整体来讲我们一般来讲要到有孙子孙女一般大概是到60岁但我还是跟文在补充的事情是说因为运营流停原本的运营流停原本一个概念他还是基于他这个抚养权的概念"},{"start":342.649,"end":361.663,"text":"那所以今天如果要談這個育孫的部分的育嬰留學的話他可能我們還是希望他可以在一個有撫養權的概念下面去做討論不只是說會不會錢不多或者是不只是這個問題而是他有一個他原本制度設計的邏輯"},{"start":363.223,"end":379.094,"text":"好 所以其實剛剛我們也有提一個重點其實主要是因應我們現在社會少子女化跟高齡化那現在其實你看公務人員任用法它已經修正表示我們社會上"},{"start":379.674,"end":400.676,"text":"是真的有这个需求不然为什么考试院跟行政院你看它整体的动作都很快那我们说如果公务人员针对这一部分它施行的效果很好我是建议我们劳动部应该可以研议朝这一方面去研议我想我们确认一下因为就我知道好像是不是公务员这边的预论他只有给假他没有给津贴啊"},{"start":402.084,"end":416.215,"text":"對我剛是講說但是現在如果是從勞工的運流亭的話那有假又有津貼有流亭又有津貼這是兩個法案我們第一個法案是說對可是我說公務人員部分也沒有津貼吧我們印象中是沒有津貼對那是"},{"start":416.895,"end":442.904,"text":"两个法案嘛一个就是针对我们希望从公务人员的部分也能够延伸到我们劳工预孙留职停薪的部分那当然我们针对津贴的部分我们是建议针对这一部分是不是可以从保险法这一部分来研议因为它整体来讲60岁以上的劳工其实占我们所有劳工其实只有三点多趴不到四趴"},{"start":443.424,"end":461.762,"text":"我覺得相關的演繹還是希望他是要從這個這個撫養權尤其是法院認定的撫養權為核心從這個概念來去做相關權力的延伸跟演繹的討論那因為這個大概就比較才比較符合暈流亭的概念"},{"start":462.562,"end":482.103,"text":"因為留情是從這個概念來發展出來那這部分因為有兩個原因第一個就是我們希望針對我們育孫的部分留職停薪的部分能夠推廣到我們那個阿公阿嬤能夠從我們的但這個一樣還是要有還是要有法院的撫養權這個才能夠比較有利潤的基礎"},{"start":483.332,"end":501.124,"text":"但是我說現在公務人員這個推廣很好是說育嬰留職停薪的部分從公務人員的部分希望他做得很好的時候因應少子化跟高齡化希望能夠延伸到我們的勞工那針對津貼的部分當然我們下次提出我們希望主要真的是鼓勵"},{"start":501.804,"end":520.999,"text":"希望針對年輕人現在因為少子化絕對是國安危機我們要因應更多的策略希望能夠鼓勵年輕人去多生小孩不然這個少子化已經是非常嚴重的國安危機跟我們說明其實年輕人的確現在生小孩尤其年輕人生小孩以後更希望是自己帶"},{"start":522.574,"end":548.089,"text":"更希望是自己帶我想這個趨勢跟比例是看得清楚但是有些狀況是不允許對 但是我說他還是要看這個撫養權的概念對啦 我們盡量能夠放寬重點我們就是希望能夠解決少子化跟高年化這個問題們所因應的那所以我們今天提出希望能夠來研議是不是怎麼樣子鼓勵年輕人多生小孩子那現在已經從公務人員做我們希望能夠擴大到勞工所以才從勞動員"},{"start":549.25,"end":567.928,"text":"我认为我们可以在整体运流亭制度上面来去思考但是还是是刚才讲说是这个这个抚养权的概念要以这个为出发点跟核心对这个没有办法一下子就没有跟着的地方就会有时候就像制度的稳定性就会比较多的影响"},{"start":568.648,"end":594.919,"text":"對 這個我們可以納入整體來討論但是我們的目標就是希望針對少子化部分能延應更多的策略能夠鼓勵年輕人多生小孩因為高齡化希望讓阿公阿嬤能夠來照顧也減輕我們年輕新手父母的負擔是 謝謝好 那接下來請我們勞保師師長跟勞保局局長好 那今天 當然我們今天"},{"start":595.973,"end":613.023,"text":"主要針對就業服務法跟勞工保險條例那我們也知道其實這裡面兩個重點今天就是我們希望修法 明定政府負最後支付的責任那我剛剛也聽部長針對這部分部長勞動部這邊也是持開放的態度"},{"start":617.446,"end":635.179,"text":"那還有我們另外一個就是撥補法制化那我聽了以後好像部長對於撥補法制化這一部分也沒有太大的問題好像是對於要設定金額部長好像認為這一部分比較有疑義設定固定金額"},{"start":636.56,"end":658.452,"text":"可能就会跟我们的财政纪律法的这个会有汉格所以我们比较顾虑的是这一点就是因为108年有一个财政纪律法第七条规定就是建议不予民定政府每年拨补金额避免我们预算僵化或者会限制我们财政运用的能力是"},{"start":659.272,"end":682.608,"text":"那這一部分那當然我們現在據我們了解其實這個社會保險基金它有它的特殊性那我們也看到其實農保健保它都有固定經費的額度像農保主管機關審核撥補然後醫生請中央予以補助那健保的部分當然它是"},{"start":683.942,"end":699.308,"text":"以每年度保險經費扣除法定收入後36%的部分由主管機關編列預算撥補資也就是說其實農保跟健保它都有固定經費額度的撥補條例那這都是在"},{"start":700.828,"end":720.288,"text":"那个财政纪律法之前对财政纪律法过后对基本上大家对财政纪律的要求就不太允许固定金额入法所以也就是说我们财政纪律法是108年公布嘛是那我的意思是说所以为什么他公布以后他对农保健保他没有特别的"},{"start":721.169,"end":749.492,"text":"提出說明或者去限制他但是在他公布之後後面的法規如果要這樣修訂的話那就會跟他漢格了對 那我們意思是說其實社會保險基金真的是有它的特殊性那我們也看106年其實蔡英文總統她有提出這個願版針對我們這個修正條文有提出她的願版可是我現在還沒有看到我們賴清德總統我們勞動部這邊有提出相關的版本"},{"start":750.333,"end":760.742,"text":"我想跟委員說明尤其是在勞保條例的第6669條我想朝野委員都有提出版本那我們很願意開放正向的態度來參與委員會裡面審議的討論"},{"start":763.594,"end":781.027,"text":"對 我是希望部長還是針對這一部分因為我們一直認為社會保險它真的是有它的特殊性那之前農保健保它會去編列表示真的有它的需求當然也因應108年財政紀律法的關係那我是認為這一部分"},{"start":782.188,"end":802.202,"text":"居然以前連106年蔡英文總統都有提出版本那她也是在108年之前對 那我是意思說表示她有她的需求嘛那如果說這個有她討論的空間我還是建議說我們還是要提出版本啊不然沒有提出版本還是不行跟我說我們會在審議的時候把我們的看法很清楚的來跟委員們討論"},{"start":803.243,"end":815.335,"text":"那包括委員們目前條文的一些修正的意見或者我們各個條文的相關的評估我們也會讓委員知道好對因為我意思說我們到現在還沒有看到版本還是希望勞動部盡快來提出是是好謝謝好謝謝圖權級委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abb470890a9463f39cbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d3a9647aa96f21cfc9d9045ad635f6ddf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:29:34 - 13:37:36","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T13:29:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:37:36+08:00","duration":482,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.806593750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.21409375,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.66971875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.192218750000002,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.16659375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.76534375,"end":27.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.970968750000004,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.18596875,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.21971875,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.42221875,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.75534375,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.079718750000005,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.45096875,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.45784375,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.73159375,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.047843750000006,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.02221875,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.00471875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.38784375,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.39034375,"end":78.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.15346875,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.86096875000001,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.10971875,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.23596875000001,"end":92.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.36221875000001,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.05409375,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.82596875,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.24659375,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.26971875000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.46784375000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.68284375,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.74909375000001,"end":130.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.58846875,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.43534375000002,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.73846875,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.37096875,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.43846875,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.48471875,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.15971875,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.84721875,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.28596875000002,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.88909375,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.09159375000002,"end":154.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.82471875000002,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.42784375000002,"end":168.42659375000002},{"speaker":"S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請到部長 謝謝請洪部長部長先問一下那個有關於勞保的議題我們現在針對身心障礙者如果要申請老年給付的話大概要幾歲以後開始可以都是一樣 跟一般的人一樣都是60歲對不對"},{"start":35.025,"end":55.306,"text":"這是規定在勞工已經到了64歲了法定年齡這是規定在勞工保險法第58條裡面那我希望說那個勞動部可以考慮一個狀況因為根據很多研究指示身心障礙者他們老化的會比較早會提早老化然後再來就是他們的"},{"start":56.075,"end":78.548,"text":"平均餘命大概也會比一般人短一點所以能不能將身心障礙者的老年給付提前好像我是有一個提案一個修正案就是希望能夠提早到50歲假設他50歲離職退保的話可以來申請老年給付不知道那個部長能不能來演繹一下"},{"start":80.233,"end":103.516,"text":"跟委員報告 身障者的照顧我們覺得不只是社會保險他還是要從整體的社會的福利啊我知道啦 不用 我現在是講這個嘛我只是講這個 你針對這個問題回答就好了 好不好好 那在國際趨勢上對身障者也跟一般人的一樣因為我們現在的醫療的進步嘛他還是朝著延緩退休"},{"start":105.718,"end":129.451,"text":"這個我沒有說那個要提早退休啊我是說申請老年給付就如果說他已經沒有工作的然後現在離職了退保了那要申請老年給付能不能提早我的議題在這邊意思是一樣啊就是說他要跟他要不要退休沒有關係有些人他想要晚退就晚退嘛我現在是針對有一些他已經離職退保的人啊"},{"start":131.819,"end":147.572,"text":"那意思就是說如果對於這些身障者讓他提早來領第一個其實我們在老年年金的機制裡面已經有讓他可以提早五年領減額年金提早五年是幾歲可以領減額年金我這邊提案是五十歲嘛"},{"start":155.434,"end":177.047,"text":"你那個今天你研議一下啦好不好那如果再讓他提早的話他可能老保的年資會很短而且他不能參加國保這個他們自己會做出對他們來說最有利的判斷嘛當然我們盡量站在他們的角度去規劃嘛但是我現在是針對一些比較我們如果法規定的很嚴的話"},{"start":178.107,"end":192.676,"text":"那有些特殊案例就會被法規綁死嘛我現在是說考量到一些特殊狀況稍微鬆綁嘛 只是這樣而已那你們勞動部要做的東西我們都沒有意見啊 都是支持的啊但是我們針對身障的其實有失能年輕了"},{"start":193.956,"end":220.791,"text":"這不一樣的東西啦不是一直跟我扯別的好先先這樣了我反正我先把這個議題先拋出來我們研究一下我認為這不是扯啦這真的是我們沒有沒有我現在在講A我們的同仁還是我現在講A然後就跟我說你有BCD那我就沒有辦法聚焦我們就沒辦法聚焦了嘛還是會有一個整個基金的思考啦我就沒辦法聚焦了啦先針對這個問題啦我認為這不是扯啦那就沒有聚焦在這個議題裡面嘛好第二個我跟這個部長問一下"},{"start":223.72,"end":252.074,"text":"央行現在又說要增加那個基本工資那我有一些央行老總部央行央行我說央行現在又呼籲啦要提高基本工資然後那我現在是想請教一下我有問過一些有一些人資給我一些建議就是說為什麼我們提高基本工資但是絕大多數的勞工啊他們薪資是沒有跟著成長主要原因是因為大家不是領基本薪資"},{"start":253.086,"end":256.471,"text":"那現在基本薪資提高當然對本"},{"start":257.322,"end":284.314,"text":"假設對本國的勞工他是領基本薪資的當然是有受惠但絕大多數領基本薪資的是外勞那所以只要是基本薪資 大部分是本勞外勞也有嘛外勞也有嘛 但並不是他們是絕大多數就是外勞有一些公司裡面他們很多是比如說都是外勞為主嘛那就是在他們公司裡面就是外勞提高嘛那我要講的是說你們有沒有研究過就是讓"},{"start":285.354,"end":298.833,"text":"本勞跟外勞的基本薪資可以脫鉤這個議題好 我講說人資的建議是為什麼你知道嗎因為有一些企業喔他們每一年的薪資的預算調高的預算其實都是固定的"},{"start":299.335,"end":316.942,"text":"那假設那家公司他是以外就是很多作業員或什麼是以外勞為主的話那基本工資一提高他必須要支付就是外勞的薪資提高的的那些薪資成本嘛所以相對來說他就壓縮了他幫本國勞工就是不是領基本薪資的本國勞工加薪的機會"},{"start":318.382,"end":338.332,"text":"這個是有些人的呼籲啦那當然我知道勞動部一定有考量因為這個議題也不是新的議題大家討論非常久葉委員講這比較是從公司跟資方的角度啦齁那但是你如果讓本勞跟外勞的最低工資脫鉤的時候等於也讓資方有更多其實可能更"},{"start":339.272,"end":360.983,"text":"更低成本的勞工可以使用的時候這其實對於本勞的就業機會對我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道像這個其實有一些配套都是可以解決嗎舉舉來講好你也可以例如說我們之前講的嗎你可以提高就要安定基金就要安定費啊就是說讓他聘外勞的成本沒有沒有想像中的這麼低"},{"start":361.567,"end":391.228,"text":"然後讓他覺得 因為本勞那如果你拉高救援肯定費那為什麼不乾脆就讓他因為當然你拉高的成本不見得一樣你讓他在這邊減少成本然後在救援肯定費再增加成本你不一定要完全一樣不是 你錢的部分不一定要完全一樣可是那個公司他會考量啊我今天也許聘本勞貴一點點但是本勞至少在語言文化適應力上面會比較好所以成本比較高他還是願意聘本勞啊"},{"start":392.15,"end":408.967,"text":"所以我覺得你可以想想看因為這個是一個很多人之的建議啦就是說因為我們實施就是那個本國勞工跟外籍就是外籍勞工的那個薪資沒有不脫鉤已經很長一段時間了我覺得是可以研究一下看看怎麼做"},{"start":410.829,"end":432.086,"text":"怎麼做一直有這個聲音啦那當然這聲音有很多他其實從企業的角度他會講到這樣的事情可是當然如果從一個保障勞動就業的角度來說的話我們的確問題是你這樣一直講那企業從他的角度他就是不這樣做啊除非你有別的方法"},{"start":432.786,"end":460.218,"text":"要他就是同時間幫不是領基本工資的人加薪否則他就是這樣做啊你也沒有什麼強制力道跟委員說明最低工資調高的目的只要還是在出還是在去面對這個邊際勞工他可能在整體加薪上面會比較困難所以我們從過去從大概兩萬塊左右現在加到了我們都支持基本工資調升我沒有說不要我沒有說不要我現在講的是本國跟外勞的脫鉤這件事情"},{"start":460.718,"end":473.373,"text":"就是如果有脫鉤的話可以幫助一些不是領基本工資的勞工也有機會可以加薪因為企業加薪的那個預算就是這麼多我的意思是這樣我認為這議題真的要比較審慎尤其是從勞動權益的角度來看真的要比較審慎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab71fc67137b8771efbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d3a9647aa96f21cfcbb1958f17482a95c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:09:49 - 13:15:40","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-17","start_time":"2025-11-17T13:09:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-17T13:15:40+08:00","duration":351,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.07284375,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.586593750000002,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.52721875,"end":37.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.96596875,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.98159375,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.71409375,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.14284375000001,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.25659375000001,"end":128.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.75596875000001,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.10346875000002,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.30159375,"end":134.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.00159375,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.49721875,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.03284375,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.04971875,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.45471875,"end":150.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.18471875,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.94409375,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.35721875000002,"end":197.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.55909375000002,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.09784375,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.63784375,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.85659375,"end":204.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.37471875,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.06221875,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.50846875000002,"end":211.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.76159375,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.13284375,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.37721875000003,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.96346875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.55284375000002,"end":243.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.54596875000001,"end":256.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.08784375,"end":266.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.55471875,"end":280.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.00409375000004,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.35409375,"end":286.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.41221875,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.11659375,"end":309.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.67596875000004,"end":303.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.10534375000003,"end":312.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.46346875,"end":312.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.26909375,"end":319.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.91034375000004,"end":314.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.06159375000004,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.46221875000003,"end":334.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.24909375000004,"end":338.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.04596875000004,"end":348.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.60659375,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.32659375000003,"end":351.06471875}],"whisperx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那就來啦勞工認為說我是蒙受冤屈的我是一個不當解雇所以我要打雇用關係存在之訴但是中間啊你這個勞保被解掉萬一最後啊這個勞工打贏了這個雇用關係存在之訴表示這段是惡意解雇那請問這段時間勞保怎麼算跟委員說明第一個因為在勞工關係法裡面喔其實遇到像這樣爭議的話其實可以有這個假處分假處分的做法是可以存在著 對"},{"start":95.325,"end":110.122,"text":"現在是這樣子喔除非你去提甲組分而且可過或可不過很難確定嘛對不對現行的狀況你恐怕很難再去加保你被退保期間的保險嘛所以你現在勞保條例裡面有講嘛如果遇到了我剛剛講的這種狀況你可以打所謂的損害賠償的責任嘛對不對"},{"start":113.266,"end":128.529,"text":"但問題是這樣嘛 這勞保的法律關係理論上它應該是 它是社會保險嘛所以它應該是一個公法上的法定之債 這樣子的一個概念可是你用 你卻是用民事關係的 這個僱傭跟損害賠償的邏輯去解決公法上的權利義務關係 這不是有點奇怪嗎"},{"start":130.148,"end":149.468,"text":"不是 你了解我的意思嗎我知道意思但是也不見得是委員講這樣那問題就來了嘛就是說我如果今天勞工遇到這樣的狀況我要先走一個很漫長的過程去確認雇傭關係是否存在然後確認存在之後我還要再花更多的時間跟成本去打這個勞保的賠償之數嘛對不對然後有可能"},{"start":150.589,"end":175.462,"text":"有可能是惡意倒閉等等的狀況 僱主也賠不出來嘛所以繞了半天 變成說勞工要花非常多的時間跟精力甚至是金錢 然後不一定能夠討回他應有的公道所以本席認為 勞保條例或有可以檢討之處針對勞保 尤其是解僱的這一部分啊是應該做一些修法的調整嘛比如說我用道指起算 而不是隨便用申報與否來做處理嘛部長認同這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":177.974,"end":192.211,"text":"可以請 這有點細節啦 但沒有關係就是我們現在的災保法是採稻質及生肖嘛主要是災保法裡面對年資的要求是沒有的只要有工作他就會有可能發生災"},{"start":193.248,"end":211.31,"text":"所以我們倒職職生肖在執行上是沒有問題的可是在勞保的部分他有非常多的給付是以保險年資作為起算比如說老年那老年這個東西就是說勞僱雙方之間有沒有倒職這件事情保險人並不知道"},{"start":212.211,"end":227.624,"text":"對 因為你有人力的有限嘛等等嘛所以你當然要走申報沒辦法 所以一定要申報所以如果說採倒職籍生效的話那麼他過了十年以後告訴我說我十年以前或二十年以前他就倒職了保險人其實是很難去查證的"},{"start":228.124,"end":256.633,"text":"那這兩個人做了就是這些在甚至有判決那如果這一部分的年資都要求社會保險來處理的話其實對財務的影響是非常大我們今天提這個法案的修正案大體上來講就是針對我剛剛講的主要是我剛剛講的萬一有雇傭關係不存在存在或不存在的這樣一個爭議的時候這一段的勞保年資的空白期啊能不能對勞工更有保障那如果是朝這個方向的話請問勞保局有沒有什麼好的建議"},{"start":257.153,"end":281.689,"text":"那这个地方刚刚就提到那个劳动事件法里面所谓的假处分他们可以去处理这样的一个事情对那老公也可以因为我刚才讲我自己认为他有一个切入点说还是从争议的处理的角度因为如果你要做整体的制度上面就是说从申报制改成直接就是一个那个内容我们到时候申报"},{"start":287.553,"end":310.779,"text":"我覺得會有一些衝突但是如果比較可以講的事情說怎麼從爭議處理的邏輯可以減少勞工這邊需要的程序的負擔我認為可能是從因為委員剛才講的部分也是產生爭議的情境嘛所以這個情境就比較不是去推到說好像變成所有的人的制度上面都必須要去改變我覺得我們心態都開放一點我也開放那希望部長這邊也開放我覺得我們可以來討論"},{"start":314.439,"end":333.124,"text":"假設爭議發生的狀況的話怎麼樣跟勞工能夠跟他隊友更高我現在是擔心就是說變成說我勞方要提出很多的反正各種救濟嘛而且我主動提他其實每一個救濟都是成本嘛也都是壓力嘛我們當然希望勞資爭議可以解決對不對但是這些東西如果通通是放在勞工這邊我是覺得有點不公平或有改善之處我覺得做法上"},{"start":334.244,"end":350.635,"text":"我們可以大家再針對這個問題做一點研議啦我們可以討論一下 沒有問題好不好警部長跟勞保局這邊稍微做一點功課也調一下過去的勞資糾紛的這個真空期是怎麼處理的有多少人用的甲組份好 我們來針對這個東西再進行詳細的討論 可以嗎謝謝好 辛苦 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員"}]}},{"id":"165524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab086eb12d25c0f6d4bfb6dfa65ed0fc1d3a9647aa96f21cfc9ec90fcc29cae8b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:03:57 - 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謝謝主席 我們請勞動部長 洪部長請洪部長部長好 我相信應該有不少的委員跟您討論過有關於國際勞動統計的警訊當然您這邊也有一些回應每一個委員有一些不同的解釋但是應該這幾年來 除了去年的工時"},{"start":30.325,"end":44.427,"text":"今年公布的去年的總共時2030相較於過去我們在2010試圖的降到1999小時之後呢今年這個2030.4那相對還是比較高那您剛才雖然也有提到"},{"start":46.169,"end":60.197,"text":"我們第五名的這個成績就算不是全世界但是基本上還是所有被評鑑的這個國家那我們還是高居第五啦那亞洲第二但重點是我們是先進的經濟體但是公使的結構似乎"},{"start":61.978,"end":78.716,"text":"還停留在一個高度仰賴加班的一個形式所以這個其實我們當然整體來講是要做一個很大的調整但是這裡面您剛才其實也討論到業別製造業裡面我們這邊本席這邊有的資料是大概高達2125個小時"},{"start":82.659,"end":110.368,"text":"電子組件甚至到2,258小時這樣其實還是有一個結構性的警訊缺工的問題如果沒有被改善勞動參與率跟停滯率還有特休制度就沒有辦法反映在現代勞動的負荷所以企業習慣也是用加班來取代增聘所以其實整體的環境還是有需要做一個很大的調整的空間"},{"start":111.388,"end":140.056,"text":"所以本席今天要請教勞動部的是那目前的政策能不能改善這些結構性的問題比如說第一個勞動參與率的偏低我們要如何來提升呢台灣的勞動參與率長期大概在56到60%左右那麼低於日韓歐盟跟美國那麼在當前企業的缺工情況下那我們似乎沒有辦法來提高薪資來吸引勞工回流"},{"start":141.176,"end":163.27,"text":"雖然近幾年我們有最低薪資的一個調整但是整體吸引勞工回流這個部分似乎不是太並沒有說非常的吸引人但是取代的我們就用現有的人力來加班支撐這是似乎是在勞動市場常有的一個狀況本席這邊要請教"},{"start":167.732,"end":195.489,"text":"通常在產業的一個聘用裡面常常都是既有的勞工我們先加班我們再來考慮徵聘其實這樣一個現況是不是有機會做一個調整跟改變所以我想請教一下勞動部目前有沒有研議來提高中高齡或婦女參與的一個參與率那幾個例子像托育的友善工時或者是彈性工時的一個制度"},{"start":196.249,"end":220.304,"text":"那或者是預防中高齡勞工職場歧視的一個專法或指引那還有協助女性職癌回流的補助與企業的一個誘因那第二個部分是你們有沒有可能訂出提高勞動參與率的具體目標有勞動部這邊來訂定那我想這個是最基本能夠改善缺工降低工時的一個方式"},{"start":221.425,"end":244.415,"text":"我們這幾年 試圖這幾乎每一年我們都是可能都居高不下那個排名居高不下那這對於整個勞動市場來講也不是太健康那我們是不是考慮一下怎麼樣來制度性的做一個調整跟改變那這個部分是不是勞動部可以先做一個回應跟委員說 現在委員在簡報上面的這三個做法 這我們都在做"},{"start":245.979,"end":264.919,"text":"不管是托育友善有沒有什麼樣子的短中長期的一個具體目標比如說本席常常聽到我們可能對於兒少或者是對於青年目前都很具體的一些專法跟方案但是中高齡常常在社會上就變成是一個中高齡有專法"},{"start":265.6,"end":291.396,"text":"OK那所以你們的這個部分的訂定有沒有實際去了解到他對於這個職場上中高齡被歧視的一個相對的一個比賽中高齡也有就業專法那也在就業專法之後其實現在中高齡的計畫也在實施也算是有成效其實今天也就法規上也提出一個比較實際的誘因所以也希望就是說中高齡的回療除了"},{"start":292.156,"end":321.343,"text":"被歧視以外呢那另外就是說在實際的一個支撐上希望能夠透過法律來做一個保障關於就業歧視的問題我想法規上面大概都是有的就是怎麼樣來遏止歧視的問題那勞動部就我們要怎麼讓他能夠更更落實更普遍就法規有了但是在實際的現況下如何再去我們希望讓他推動更有成效這也是要必須透過計畫跟資源所以你們有這個提高勞動力參與的這樣本席所講的以上三種的一個具體目標嗎"},{"start":322.143,"end":343.002,"text":"其實這幾年中高齡的勞參率的目標是有在提高的但我們認為還可以再更加強所以是不是可以給本席很具體的你們在提高的這個部分是不是有每年的數據或做法然後跟一個檢視的指標好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}