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晏澀湖災後重建特別預算案編列情形提出報告自感榮幸那本特別預算是統合就是111月10號到12號鳳凰的一個颱風和本條例範圍所"},{"start":2081.187,"end":2097.518,"text":"自的一個災害情形所需的一個相關經費所以除了預留後續額度30億元在那邊以外最初供編列270億元那主要年度是114年到119年度分別編列38億元86億元86億元41億元還有11億元和9億元"},{"start":2102.942,"end":2123.135,"text":"那我们资就机关别和正式别简要说明如下机关别编列情形一原住民委员会编列五议员主要是拨补原住民综合发展基金办理灾区维型经济活动贷款等行政院公共工程委员会一议员系办理马滩西厌测湖灾后重建"},{"start":2125.056,"end":2146.208,"text":"統籌協調業務所需經費三內政府主管編列28億元主要是補助地方政府辦理受災地區市區道路橋樑公共建設之緊急搶救搶修清理清淤局復建工程等市經濟部主管編列91億元主要是辦理馬太灣溪及花蓮溪水系系統性治理等"},{"start":2147.428,"end":2159.292,"text":"交通部主管編列44億元主要是辦理台九縣馬太安溪橋享修及復建工程等農業部主管編列43億元主要是辦理驗證服務監測應變及土砂防治相關工程農業生產環境重建等衛生福利部主管編列1億元去補助光復箱醫事服務機構辦理建築及災害復建及醫療儀器設備災損"},{"start":2176.617,"end":2195.005,"text":"等所需經費環境部主管編列42億元主要是補助地方政府辦理災後沙土混雜廢棄物分類去化災後一般廢棄物清除處理環境護原及環境設施修復等9預備金編列15億元2正式別編列請請經濟發展支出編列192億元佔稅數總額71.4社區發展及環境保護支出"},{"start":2201.688,"end":2208.85,"text":"編列56億元 佔稅數總額20.7億 預備金15億元 佔稅數總額5.6億一般政務支出6億元 佔稅數總額2.2億社會福利支出1億元 佔稅數總額0.1%以上 所需裁員270億元全數舉借債務資源以上報告敬請主席及各位委員女士先生會議指教並鼎力支持 謝謝好 謝謝主席長"},{"start":2230.489,"end":2235.112,"text":"那接下來我們請經濟部賴建信賴次長主席各位委員各位前進今天聯席會審查本特別預算"},{"start":2252.447,"end":2271.977,"text":"自感榮幸可以跟各位委員報告本特別預算中有關於經濟部的部分大概是90.91億元各項業務主要內容跟預算編列的情形在要如下首先是電力系統2.6億元由台電公司來辦理配電網的防災韌性改善的工作"},{"start":2272.937,"end":2286.624,"text":"這裡面包括配電廠 人手孔引導淤泥掩埋的這個部分修繕還有變電系統的電網韌性修繕及維護其次是自來水瓦斯或是燃氣系統0.95億元"},{"start":2289.045,"end":2313.946,"text":"那為因應這個災害造成供水系統的一個損壞所以必要辦理四項的工作第三個部分是水利設施總共有85億元那主要辦理馬太安溪及花蓮溪水系的系統性治理那這項的工作又關於河川排水通洪的所有的中體治理那主要除了緊急搶修搶險復建"},{"start":2315.847,"end":2335.427,"text":"興建堤防甚至二道防線還有安全檢查之外還有持續辦理疏浚的工作第四項是社會復原及產業促進總共2.36億元主要辦理災區的設備的毀損修繕緊急救災用油及受災戶的用水用電減免"},{"start":2337.247,"end":2351.758,"text":"等等工作那除此之外還有協助受災的製造企業設備及設施的復原以及受災店家消費振興及災區市場災後修復工作"},{"start":2352.922,"end":2370.768,"text":"除此之外也辦理受災企業的利息補貼協助受災中小企業及稅籍登記業者辦理災害復工貸款及原有貸款利息減免提供利息補貼等經費以上僅就中央政府"},{"start":2371.388,"end":2390.395,"text":"花蓮馬太安溪煙澀湖災後重建特別預算案經濟部主管編列情形做簡要報告懇請各位委員先進予以支持與指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們交通部賴次長接下來請交通部陳彥博陳次長"},{"start":2406.199,"end":2423.545,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生,今天應邀貴委員會就花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別預算本部主管編列的情形,向各位委員做個報告,並請各位委員先進予以指教。"},{"start":2424.065,"end":2448.336,"text":"那就本部編列的相關的預算總共本部編列44.2億那現在就辦理的細項做以下的一個說明首先就鐵路的部分辦理鐵路路線 廠站 電路及平交道等相關設施設備損壞損害災後復原所需的經費大概是1.4億元這其中包括第一個是有關東部幹線的鐵路K42加300到K43加200"},{"start":2453.338,"end":2468.713,"text":"還有光復站災後復原工程這裡頭包括了路線的倒渣耗資的系統 廠站的設備平交道的設施的復原光復車站 站前廣場的整建及光復隧道南北口CCTV監視系統"},{"start":2470.254,"end":2496.151,"text":"的設置等所需的經費大概是1.1億元另外第二個部分是就東部幹線鐵路K146加100上邊坡的一個搶修加固的工程所需的經費大概是0.3億元另外就公路的部分辦理馬太安溪橋的搶修及復建工程還有另外是補助花蓮縣政府辦理道路橋樑附屬設施等災後修復所需的經費39.3億元"},{"start":2498.192,"end":2514.26,"text":"其中包括公路局的部分辦理台九線231K加952馬太西橋的搶修及復建工程所需的經費大概是35億元另外補助花蓮縣政府辦理受災地區編號公路之道路橋樑附屬設施等災後"},{"start":2516.361,"end":2539.487,"text":"修復所需的經費是4.3億元第三個部分是辦理馬太安溪艷澀湖受災而護的車輛受損報費登記的衛助方案所需的經費是3.5億元以上各項的預算盡按照災後復原工作的需求來核實編列那懇請各位委員支持以利各項復原工作的順利推動以上 謝謝"},{"start":2542.093,"end":2542.775,"text":"好 謝謝市長接下來我們請農業部陳部長"},{"start":2562.495,"end":2577.157,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天奉邀參加大醫院審查中央政府因應花蓮馬灘西醫院社福災後重建特別條例預算的一個審查那以下就本部的部分跟各位做說明第一個部分是"},{"start":2578.191,"end":2595.142,"text":"有關於本部及所屬執行馬太安相關的這些預算在這個條例裡面總共編列了43.07億元那這43.07億元大概分為幾個部分第一個部分是有關於馬太安西燕社屋的整治及相關的工程編列了14.3億那主要是針對"},{"start":2598.684,"end":2623.462,"text":"驗射壺天然壩體及周邊崩塌地的一個治理核道的清淤另外在光護萬農林道的一個驗射壺的一個變道的一個搶救那第二個部分是有關於農業復原的部分編列的27.46億那主要做兩項工作第一項工作是農業生產環境重建與造林相關的費用是20億那主要還有包括了一些灌排水的一個設施的一個整建"},{"start":2624.042,"end":2647.325,"text":"那第二個部分是專案補助編列的7.41億那專案補助本身最主要是協助農民補助農果樹的肺源及新植的一個復耕那及相關的這些資材式農機具的修繕跟溫暖式的一個重建那第三個部分是蓄設結構的一個改變的一個協助那編列的"},{"start":2649.165,"end":2655.114,"text":"0.05億元那第三個部分是有關於社會復原及災產業促進編列的1.2億元那"},{"start":2659.082,"end":2681.295,"text":"主要的執行工作是有關於天然災害救助金的一個發放那另外還有跟當地有關的農會的建物設備一個復原邊內的0.34億那第三個部分最主要是透過金融支持來協助我們的農民渡過難關那邊內的0.33億元包括了利息貸款一般貸款的展延以及"},{"start":2682.416,"end":2706.965,"text":"金融機構承受馬太安西燕社福相關的這些產品的一個損失那希望說透過這樣的一個預算能夠加速馬太安燕社福農業復原的重建工作同時能夠保護下游居民農田及公共設施安全那更重要的是能夠舒緩災民貸款的壓力以及減輕農民受災貸款的一個負擔那希望透過中央政府因應"},{"start":2709.065,"end":2734.155,"text":"馬三的這些重建特別條例那我們未來會以重塑重檢的原則提供災民慰問金及申請多項的災後的服務有效的回應受災民迫切的一個需求協助恢復正常的一個生活再次感謝所有的委員對於馬太安縣政府重建之相關的一個關心好 謝謝陳部長最後我們請內政部劉思芳 劉部長"},{"start":2746.586,"end":2750.345,"text":"怎麼都退 還沒退 突然間跑到旁邊來等他講完我來"},{"start":2754.091,"end":2777.717,"text":"有關於中央政府花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別預算的報告內政部主管的部分呢簡要的跟大院的各位委員以及各位長官來報告特別預算編列案的情形本特別預算呢內政部主管總共編列28億4100萬元就各項說明如下第一個有關家園及公共設施的部分一家園安置業務編列3億200萬元"},{"start":2780.698,"end":2799.708,"text":"系預計興辦中期安置受災災民所需的中繼屋150戶之前期規劃作業設施興建基地的整地排水及維運等所需經費也協助受災民眾在家園復建期間能夠有安全安穩而且符合基本居住條件的中繼住所"},{"start":2800.228,"end":2817.115,"text":"二 馬太安溪艷賽湖災害受災戶家園復原未住金編列5億元 細發給受災戶每戶10萬元家園復原未住金作為家園清理 故宮及修繕運用等所需經費也協助災民可以早日重建家園"},{"start":2817.955,"end":2844.176,"text":"第三在道路跟交通方面補助地方政府辦理受災地區市區道路橋樑公共設施之緊急搶救搶修清理清淤以及復建工程等編列六億五千萬元也協助地方政府辦理災後復建工作必能及早恢復市區道路橋樑公共設施原有功能並且提高結構安全以避免災害再度發生第三水利設施方面"},{"start":2844.856,"end":2872.145,"text":"補助地方政府辦理受災地區雨水下水道及污水下水道之清淤搶修強化下水道系統等總共編列13億8900萬元除了協助地方政府在辦理清淤搶修工作之外也協助評估設置雨水排水設施污水下水道系統並提升整體雨水排水效能防止水域污染以及改善居住環境衛生結語的部分綜合以上的報告"},{"start":2872.965,"end":2873.125,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長"},{"start":2892.109,"end":2916.237,"text":"跟各位站在後面的各位幕僚做一下宣告一下今天我們有接802會議室我想因為我們今天質詢的委員非常多也很多的幕僚今天在場我們為了維護我們的空氣品質所以請各位可以移駕到802會議室來聆聽我們整個詢答的一個過程"},{"start":2917.877,"end":2944.936,"text":"也請大家盡量降低聲量以免影響我們整個詢答的一個過程現在我們開始詢答作以下宣告每位出席委員發言時間為5分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為3分鐘我們不延長今日上午10點截止發言登記現在我們依照登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2951.364,"end":2959.707,"text":"主席還有各部位的首長各位同仁是不是請這個"},{"start":2975.691,"end":2976.872,"text":"莊部長 財政部莊部長還有經濟部的賴次長莊部長 我們賴次長請"},{"start":2990.031,"end":2997.736,"text":"部長我請教因為上週台股14日重挫506點指數來到27453點昨天大盤又重疊了691點指數來到26756點那證交所統計外資上週在集中市場賣超981億元今年累計到11月14日外資賣超超過3766億元"},{"start":3020.832,"end":3033.548,"text":"那我請問莊部長到聖誕節前夕這段期間台股是處於花落盛開蝴蝶自來的狀態還是大難臨頭各自揮您的看法呢"},{"start":3035.133,"end":3048.365,"text":"跟委員報告我們台股雖然是會受到國際股市聯動的影響出現比較大的波動但是整體面基本的都是AI對不對其他的那些傳統產業幾乎不能生存"},{"start":3050.026,"end":3064.039,"text":"上市櫃的一個整體的營收累計前10個月也是比去年同期成長了12.5%所以基本面是良好的我了解啦好 那我想這個部分呢從4月9號我們國安基金開始執行護盤的任務那我們會審慎的關注國內外的政經事務"},{"start":3068.943,"end":3084.157,"text":"台股容易受到美股表現的影響那美國相關經濟的數據前景不明那我請問部長目前國安基金銀彈是否能夠充足是否需要借用四大基金來配合"},{"start":3085.038,"end":3106.256,"text":"先前財政部的阮次長也表示說國安基金規模希望能夠更擴大像公股銀行來借題更高達到7000億請問部長你有什麼看法最慢何時會拿版本到"},{"start":3107.137,"end":3129.71,"text":"我們立法院來討論有沒有這種想法對 是跟委員報告目前來說國安基金整體規模五千億那其中是跟借貸的是三千那四大基金是兩千目前都還足以支應目前那從四月九號進場來以後那因為我們看到其實國內的股市還是相當的"},{"start":3130.011,"end":3136.63,"text":"所以說妳認為沒有問題不避就對了啦到目前為止並沒有什麼問題而且也執行以來也沒有動用過四大基金的錢"},{"start":3137.95,"end":3161.799,"text":"我想美國總統川普17日再度重提被台灣搶走晶片的生意晶片將回到美國生產製造川普表示美國若要重新主導晶片製造必須重新訓練國內的勞工美國在一年內就能夠重新佔據全球大部分的晶片市場"},{"start":3163.132,"end":3184.962,"text":"此外昨天媒體有報導台積電前技術研發及企業策略的發展資深的副總羅維仁退休前疑似利用職權帶走兩奈米等先進製程的影印資料並傳出已回國美國英特爾"},{"start":3188.484,"end":3214.043,"text":"這個川普總統說美國將主導晶片的市場與台積電洩密隱私有關經濟部賴次長對於上述兩則新聞你有什麼看法跟因應啊首先有關於高科技公司剛剛委員所詢問到這個事情我們中共台積電的這個內部的一個說法那除此之外經濟部也派人去做相關的這個瞭解"},{"start":3215.765,"end":3227.117,"text":"我是希望說這個事情你們要繼續追那我來請你們兩位請回去我請內政部劉部長還有農業部的陳部長好"},{"start":3236.277,"end":3253.128,"text":"那個部長李鴻元說馬太安溪這個煙塞浮上游左側山壁不穩定再次發生豪大雨可能會崩下來而且要發生五級的地震整座山會滑下來建議應該討論"},{"start":3267.578,"end":3277.046,"text":"成災那我請問農業部或經濟部代表剛剛經濟部那個相關這個由誰來負責由上次的台大團隊嗎那個我"},{"start":3281.024,"end":3302.806,"text":"我跟委員報告整個馬賽安上游的部分是由農業部林保署在負責然後我們也委請了相關的一個專家隨時在做監控那您剛才說的就是左壁那邊有大概一億立方土的部分隨時都可能因為大豪雨或是地震的崩塌那前兩次有兩次的新的驗測壺都是因為這樣形成的"},{"start":3303.632,"end":3323.313,"text":"那針對由馬太安溪這個菸攝乎處置的方案中長期的治理以及減災工程14億元我們有辦法人定勝天嗎還是只能順從大自然的威力下另覓一個安居樂業的新天地你來看我"},{"start":3324.668,"end":3345.928,"text":"我想基本上在整個的馬太安上游因為土砂量非常大那我們也會看天候如果天候可以的話我們嘗試的會去開片道去開始做部分的這些土砂的移除但是最主要是每一次下雨都會把這些土砂量帶下來如果說長期累月的帶下來之後它不是也是一個解決的方式"},{"start":3347.126,"end":3368.306,"text":"因為莫拉科風災過去耗時兩年 2011年經濟部水利署於屏東縣高速箱重新修築完成長2560公尺 高10公尺 地下還有20公尺的基樁超級的提防 當時一公尺造價差不多36萬元"},{"start":3369.747,"end":3387.599,"text":"可以抵擋200年的黃紅頻率那此次花蓮光復鄉這個淹水收災慘重媒體報導光復鄉未來新設的超級堤防預計在後年年底建構5公里長50米寬超級的堤防那我請問"},{"start":3388.82,"end":3412.856,"text":"包括經濟部還有賴次長等等在特別預算水利設施編列99億其中超級提防的預算有多少平均一公尺造價多少是否也能夠像屏東高速那種超級提防抵擋200年的黃紅計畫頻率馬太安溪的滾滾那些泥流"},{"start":3413.757,"end":3435.476,"text":"有沒有什麼看法非常感謝委員的指導朗隆溪的舊樓提房就是剛剛你描述的我有參與過那這一次水利署現在正在這個設計之中針對於高規格提房的工作因為每一條的河川的核心不一樣所以這個絕對會去確保安全明年汛期前就會再做第二個層的一個加強房"},{"start":3435.796,"end":3454.447,"text":"我希望人命關天 最重要就是我們要預防如何防止下滯的大水所以說各部會一定要好好的去推動把這些問題解決 以上好 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝林德福委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":3475.478,"end":3499.126,"text":"主席請陳主席長請主席長委員好主席長早是這一次的這個特別條例馬太安溪的這個驗射壺這個特別條例是有沒有包括鳳凰颱風之後又產生另外一個新的驗射壺有有含部分這個部分那有沒有包括"},{"start":3500.151,"end":3524.323,"text":"逆流之後對光復鄉明麗村所造成的損害有沒有包括這個部分有有喔好那我再繼續往下問有沒有包括鳳凰颱風蘇澳淹水還有宜蘭的災情沒有那一樣是明麗颱風花蓮的就有對宜蘭蘇澳的就沒有這樣不會很怪嗎"},{"start":3525.908,"end":3543.08,"text":"跟委員說明這一次是針對馬太安災後的復建主要是在馬太安溪左右兩岸及花蓮溪水系至於此次鳳凰颱風對於宜蘭特別是蘇澳地區的治水的工作行政院已經折成水利署"},{"start":3544.02,"end":3556.266,"text":"我們經濟部也要求水利署在未來的四年一千億的預算裡面來加強這個地方的黃紅措施的改善工作這裡面包括蘇澳分紅工程"},{"start":3557.929,"end":3576.489,"text":"對花蓮的救災我當然全力支持但是宜蘭這邊的速度也不能比較慢你把它放在後面的1000億這樣子宜蘭人會不會覺得說它的速度沒有特別條例會比較慢會不會有這種感覺不會 第一個蘇澳分洪從112年奉行這位合定之後113 114年"},{"start":3579.211,"end":3607.56,"text":"經濟部水利署都分別編列預算在今年9月通過預算的徵收而水利署也同時在這個預算的徵收的過程去做基本設計我們會同步來並行這個工作四澳分紅的工程水利署除了透過這一項措施之外對於發包策略的部分也會加強還敢辦除此之外市區裡面的賴市長你是一個很有能力而且你從水利署長出身所以我覺得你的講法我可以接受那你請回座我繼續請教署長"},{"start":3611.726,"end":3621.333,"text":"上一次那個台南那一個颱風是不是有特別條例是那個多少錢600600通過了嘛通過600億然後這次這個270加30有可能300億對這樣就900了嘛900那900這是特別條例嘛"},{"start":3631.829,"end":3650.142,"text":"那特別要條例的這些預算雖然不受預算法限制但是有沒有受舉債總額的限制有沒有受這個一年不能夠超過你的預算規模15%的舉債上限的這個限制都沒有期間有受流量限制啦"},{"start":3650.382,"end":3673.462,"text":"那這個上個禮拜本院又在藍白多數的表決之下印給你通過的這個新的他們這個新的這個才化法的這個修正又要規定你計劃型補助跟這個跟那個一般性補助都不可以比以前少所以卓院長有講說這樣又要增加2600多億"},{"start":3675.555,"end":3678.679,"text":"2646億2646億那在之前因為上一個版本他已經從你這邊財化法已經拿走4000多億4165億那這樣就兩個加起來是多少"},{"start":3690.033,"end":3710.793,"text":"總共是多少就是說總共增加4165億然後這個部分一般性補助它要維持一般性補助和計畫性補助它要維持5455億這就是等於是說這個部分我們必須要增加2646億這個部分我們是沒有辦法負擔"},{"start":3714.918,"end":3726.916,"text":"這樣子加起來有沒有超過那個預算法規定不可以超過你的那個預算的15%的上限超過1000多億那另一個法律叫你要違法那這樣要怎麼處理啊"},{"start":3730.08,"end":3748.279,"text":"但是有一個方法你可以作帳啊你就虛胖啊你就把你的總預算灌水啊把那個舉借幾千億全部都加進來那這樣灌水虛胖之後後面債務給後面的人背啊你這樣就不會違反預算法舉債15%上限這種事情我們不能做我們不能做這樣的事情"},{"start":3748.755,"end":3769.228,"text":"有很多地方政府都在做這樣的事情啊不然左也違法右也違法那你要怎麼辦是所以這個部分我們必須要整個要循救濟的程序來救濟啦怎麼樣救濟的程序是這個部分我們大概應該是第一個是要視線嘛呼籲啦呼籲我們也會"},{"start":3769.807,"end":3783.232,"text":"覆議不會過啦覆議只讓我們多麻煩的多表決一次而已哪一次的覆議覆議的時候連討論都不跟你討論耶是那我們也會要求四限啦四限到法官會議現在被停擺了四什麼限"},{"start":3786.405,"end":3813.612,"text":"所以你要有做一個心理準備今年的總預算不會省就算延到1月31號也不會省我們還是希望委員能夠支持因為預算裡面我當然支持問題是我是少數我在立法院我是少數黨我是跟你講說你要心理準備根本就不會省省了也沒用 省了也違法你們也沒有辦法執行是不是這樣心理要準備好謝謝"},{"start":3816.786,"end":3818.047,"text":"好謝謝吳秉仁委員接下來請賴世保委員質詢我們謝謝主席各位先進有請財政部長主計長莊部長還有經濟部的賴常務次長賴常次還有"},{"start":3847.692,"end":3857.202,"text":"衛福部的次長呂政府次長一起來我就不要浪費時間我也好好 幾位長官好你們昨天哪一位回答我 署計長是不是昨天中央政府找的地方是我們去開會結果人家批評你們"},{"start":3871.158,"end":3892.707,"text":"只有兩張的A4然後什麼資料也沒有沒有基於計算的公式沒有補助的金額沒有分配的比例水平分配也統統沒有什麼都沒有就說突然你就晃晃說除了雙北市以外各縣市都支持人家好幾個人打電話給我說根本亂講一通你們在認知作戰"},{"start":3898.493,"end":3913.946,"text":"來 你講報告委員 昨天重點在談市權的劃分那這裡面市權劃分什麼資料都沒有啊給多少錢你沒有啊市權的劃分主要是包括不是 好啦我時間有限你給我講重點好不好是是是"},{"start":3914.987,"end":3928.885,"text":"我就問你有沒有計算公司計算公司是在台灣華裡面的所以我們昨天沒有在談第二個有沒有各縣市的分配比例比如說台北市要拿多少有沒有"},{"start":3929.506,"end":3943.117,"text":"我們是在談事權不是在談分配的比率所以事權我們是談一般性的補助還有計劃型的補助所以等於以114年度的一般性所以你昨天的開會就是談事權的架構和劃分這個花唬爛 這個東西欺世盜名 人家講得好了不起我就問你一個你們現在根據你們行政院版本有了嗎 對不對"},{"start":3959.628,"end":3967.422,"text":"有喔 那到底要給地方政府統籌文備稅款多少錢要給多少錢這個是財政部來來來 財政部要給多少錢 現在"},{"start":3971.518,"end":3994.355,"text":"跟委員報告才化法這個部分在明天會提報院會討論在院會通過後我們在記者會會做詳細的說明那剛剛您提到所謂水平分配的公式沒有揭露其實在我們10月21號的時候已經把水平分配的公式權重還有它的指標都已經說而這個指標也是歷經幾次會議以後縮小了"},{"start":3996.957,"end":4001.298,"text":"中央跟地方是不是66比34我問你這個中央跟地方這個部分在明天的會議裡面會議做討論以後就會對外詳細說明跟委員報告中央統籌分配稅款的規模會比114年擴大那麼我們在這個垂直分配的部分前期會做合一的下放這個部分是可以跟委員做下放好 那我就問你具體的"},{"start":4022.143,"end":4032.05,"text":"我們原來 按照原來的是你們給地方4100多億按照你們新的版本是不是比這個還多跟委員報告在115年來算的話總體中將釋出的是一兆1683億除了中央統籌分配稅款有8874億還有一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款但是在我們的新的版本裡面會比這個"},{"start":4051.105,"end":4076.963,"text":"我們這邊通過的這個我們預計我們的幅度不會比這個小我們的規模不會比一兆一千六百來的小沒有沒有沒有 我沒有聽得懂一兆一千是全部的是不是是全部的就是統籌加一般加補助統籌加一般加計劃型補助款那就明年度比這個還多我們會比這個也就這個因為這個一兆一千多是根據去年底通過的財劃法那我就問你"},{"start":4078.104,"end":4083.246,"text":"那那個統籌分配稅款是不是維持4100多還是比這個還多這個部分我們明天院會會做討論那院會會記者會會跟各位報告那這個部分呢其實我們會有考量到就是說中央統籌分配稅款裡面要除了錢的下放之外也就剛剛主席講說的市權也要做調整那市權做調整就屬於地方自治的事項屬於經常性的常態性會回歸到地方"},{"start":4106.252,"end":4108.954,"text":"有沒有增加嘛有沒有比4000多億增加嘛這個4100多億其實當時我們在規劃"},{"start":4116.232,"end":4132.363,"text":"國民黨團這個版本其實是沒有經過這個相關的事權的調整而就直接這樣定了我們那個當時認為就是一個不合理的狀況所以也就是說你4100多億你還是承認啦我沒有說是維持4100多億就比這個還多我們會做合一的規劃這個還是不講就對了來第二個問題那個"},{"start":4144.417,"end":4169.156,"text":"我那個資料那個嘉樂園到底是誰管的嘉樂園誰管的委員好 這個載具這是嘉樂園市面上買得到的什麼標示都沒有沒有CMS什麼都沒有在裡面有這個東西"},{"start":4171.458,"end":4197.467,"text":"這個是假的 這也不是真的所以然後呢 裡面的電池是中國大陸的電池就現在市面上買得到的加熱源他沒有CMS 什麼標示都沒有我去查牢半天經濟部 到底是經濟部還是財政部還是衛福部結果衛福部說是經濟部 財政部說是他沒有在管那衛福部說是經濟部 到底誰管經濟部長官不要講一下"},{"start":4200.038,"end":4203.783,"text":"經濟部長官這個載具啊載具啊是不是你管的"},{"start":4208.467,"end":4230.197,"text":"這個沒有在我們應實施商品檢驗的這個部分的話就不是我們但依照這個衛福部他針對開加熱菸的這個他有相關的一個規範標示的規範衛福部長官衛福部是你們管的嗎我們主要是負責有關標示的部分他外面沒有標示"},{"start":4231.909,"end":4255.529,"text":"都沒有標示這個在市面上都買得到這是你們管的還是經濟部管的衛福部是負責標示的部分沒錯你們管標示經濟部管載具你們要功能負責到現在市面上就買到這個什麼標示都沒有結果一問大家踢皮球經濟部踢給財政部財政部踢給衛福部衛福部踢給經濟部"},{"start":4259.417,"end":4272.186,"text":"我們是不是 我做一個建議來答應好不好你對於加熱煙的相關的管理這個載具的管理"},{"start":4273.444,"end":4280.546,"text":"一個禮拜內給我報告可以嗎你們三個單位共同負責一個單位可以嗎因為這個載具是經濟部管的所以經濟部負責統籌就聯繫那個財政部還有那個衛福部一起來好不好 請經濟部主管謝謝好 謝委員請就一個禮拜之內提出書面的一個報告好 謝謝賴司法委員接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":4310.007,"end":4325.618,"text":"主席有請主席長 農業部長請陳主席長晚一點再請農業部我們陳俊記 陳部長委員好主席長你好我想這一個特別預算當中直接補助地方政府花蓮政府就高達79億"},{"start":4328.219,"end":4346.173,"text":"這樣的情況底下比例有高達三成其實我看起來是不太合理而且在外界有非常的質疑過去花蓮縣政府在散款 亂花還有去拔條卡二來執行能力在這次救災的過程當中看起來就跨跨卡丘 其實明顯不足"},{"start":4347.654,"end":4369.11,"text":"第三連審計部這113年的決算報告來看花蓮列館的重大的公共建設的預算就高達21億而且執行率只有70%在這種情況底下花蓮明年的預算因為統籌這個款項要增加已經暴增了100多億人力沒有增加再加上風災每年又給20億的情況底下"},{"start":4370.931,"end":4400.363,"text":"我覺得主席長你這邊有沒有可能建立一個撥款的機制是用一季或半年或執行率什麼方式而且要延近流用的方式來做控管有沒有可能用這種機制這樣已遭公信他主要是有分年 他有分年來執行他是譬如說如果馬太安溪的部分他是到119年我知道然後這本身就有分差不多四年分了五年 我知道是 所以整個部分也是一般工程都按進度是在撥款"},{"start":4400.523,"end":4422.088,"text":"对 你要控管好而且盈庆留用否则的话预算这样编列它本身你就已经补助它高达3成79亿了加上其他委托地方政府补助的款项还没有计算出来会更高所以我是要请主席长这个部分严格控管主席长你稍微休息一下"},{"start":4422.628,"end":4428.731,"text":"我再舉一個例子給你聽我要跟農業部長對話你注意聽 你先在旁邊聽一下因為裡頭還有編了一筆所謂的農業復興這個費用高達27億那裡頭27億當中有7.5億來作為所謂的農地重劃費用"},{"start":4440.393,"end":4463.912,"text":"一個花蓮才100多公頃 編了7.5億部長你知道你全年度編多少嗎農業部114年到117年 4年才編4億4年才編4億 1年才1億一個花蓮居然就高達7.5億就面積比例跟時間相對完全不符"},{"start":4464.532,"end":4491.737,"text":"我跟委員報告這次在馬太安光復災區的部分跟對面的鳳林光復的部分大概有246公頃是屬於它的土石是超過50公分的我們在規劃說它做土地重劃的時候一定要居民第一個同意而且土地重劃有相關的委員會他會實際的去監督問題他們是連地主談都沒有談地主的意願都不清楚了情況底下總共100多公頃的重劃居然高達7.5億"},{"start":4493.897,"end":4518.398,"text":"我側面還聽說反正到時候這筆錢就是給給花蓮縣政府到時候他們也留院也可以可以執行掉可以這樣隨便留用嗎我想跟委員報告我們絕對不會說把錢撥出去到縣政府就結束了因為土地重劃有一個委員會有相關的非常嚴謹的一個規定是在做這個處理而且它的面積未來如果說居民經過討論了以後面積沒那麼大的時候經費就會縮編對"},{"start":4520.439,"end":4530.205,"text":"不是大筆一揮要多少就給多少怎麼用中央政府兩手一攤就不管絕對不能有這種事情發生好不好接下來請財政部長"},{"start":4535.416,"end":4554.046,"text":"財政部長 部長對財法法的修法對你每次都是和顏悅色對藍白的修法現在已經二上加二還是沒有看到你出來表示任何意見只有國庫署署長出來講話而已那三個縣市之所以會反對版本"},{"start":4555.166,"end":4578.477,"text":"那原因在哪裡因為他們既得利益者那整個將來財化法的整個精神會破壞殆盡這種情況底下我從來沒有看到您表態而且在整個特別預算的部分現階段的特別預算當中已經有兩個在執行新式戰機的採購特別預算跟海空戰力提升的一個特別預算在執行接下來明年還有三個特別預算要執行當然是颱風還有國安任性以及包括馬太安這三個特別預算要執行"},{"start":4581.978,"end":4602.885,"text":"到底這個部分會不會造成整個財政結構的一個惡化都沒有聽到你說明部長你的態度怎麼樣財化法的態度跟委員報告確實在上個禮拜我們先說上個禮拜五三讀通過的財化法要求中央債增加四出2646億那如果這樣子的話加上"},{"start":4604.225,"end":4626.414,"text":"115年度的總預算原先要舉借的2992億加起來總共要5638億這個就是這個部分那這個部分就已經超過了公債法裡面的債務流量上限的15%所以這是不可以的那另外就是幾項特別預算我們目前都在執行當中那當然這個舉借數會再增加上去"},{"start":4630.316,"end":4637.783,"text":"那中央其實這幾年非常重視所謂的財政紀律第一個他會突破15%的上限那第二個他會不會排擠到明年的這個新的這個台灣神盾的一個國防預算那高達預算7000到1.2兆之間的可能性有沒有可能"},{"start":4648.497,"end":4664.216,"text":"这个部分当然整个财政是一个大的资源如果这样在妥善的分配上应该要考量第一个中央的财政要稳健除了我们要提升地方的财政的自主性之外要兼顾财政的稳定跟锐性是一定要做的"},{"start":4668.528,"end":4696.041,"text":"當然會受影響中央的這個一個施政的量一定會受影響的那受影響的情況底下接下來如果說我們這個財法法明知道行政院長已經要來拜會立法院長要進行對話跟針對總預算跟財法法的同時突然有遭到這種突襲修法的情況底下如果整個朝野之間沒有辦法對話就採取對立的情況底下那我問一下財政部長後續有沒有可能採取行政抵抗權"},{"start":4698.76,"end":4720.867,"text":"这个部分当然院长已经会跟立法院会做协调部长你的态度呢本席现在问你不是问院长我们应该是更积极的就是我们会提出院版的才化法我们希望院版才化法做一个更合理性你的积极老师你的积极都拖了很久的积极是这一次才会感受到比较急原来还拖到年底我不过问了几次了从来没有急过"},{"start":4721.727,"end":4732.311,"text":"已經提出 我們這個部分已經報行政院明天會提報院會來討論好啦 積極對話啦 必要的時候對立啦是抵抗權 該行使就行使啦是好 謝謝郭國文委員好 部長請回接下來我們請蘇巧惠委員質詢"},{"start":4747.694,"end":4750.276,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有經濟部劉部長賴建興 賴次長賴次長"},{"start":4761.95,"end":4784.843,"text":"謝謝 劉部長還有賴次長早我們今天在審花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別預算我想先請賴次長先就回答一下因為我今天要跟您討論的就是防災型的微電網我想先請教一個問題次長丹納斯颱風我們那時候停電停了幾天你還記得嗎"},{"start":4787.598,"end":4811.725,"text":"停電事實上停了相當長的時間相當長的時間主要是有3500根電桿的導斷然後造成附電比較困難所以丹納斯台南的這個部分當時讓大家覺得最困難的地方就是電沒有電這件事情造成的災害其實大家非常的感受甚深好來那我馬太安溪堰澀湖這次的災害我們停電停了多久"},{"start":4814.268,"end":4834.154,"text":"我們當天晚上就負電當天晚上就負電進九成了 對不對所以兩個災害其實它所影響的部分完全不一樣那在電力的部分也完全的不一樣我不知道是不是基於這樣的事實狀態所以我跟您請教的其實是在這一次的重建特別預算當中我來跟 我用馬太安"},{"start":4838.695,"end":4861.228,"text":"西義艷澀湖這次的災後重建特別預算就是我們今天要處理的這個部分和丹納斯颱風的這個災後復原重建特別預算兩相對照之下市長你應該可以看得到我現在的資料嘛在丹納斯的時候經濟部主管編了187億辦理了非常多的事項其中有一項是建制小型防災微電網及移動式電網貨櫃等7億7億多"},{"start":4865.67,"end":4868.874,"text":"這是建置新的微電網我的理解沒有錯誤吧正確好來那為什麼花蓮馬太安這次為什麼不用你是因為它沒有電力受損的這個狀態所以就不編了嗎"},{"start":4880.726,"end":4900.782,"text":"不是的 首先第一個這次馬太安溪對於電網的一個問題主要是因為配電所跟人手拱埋的一個狀況還有附掛在馬太安溪橋上面的這個電線的毀壞所以我們現在編了2.6億元是希望改善這個但是委員所提"},{"start":4900.862,"end":4926.355,"text":"我有看到你這邊確實有2億多這個等於是在有點修復的概念嘛那我現在跟你討論的是上一次在丹納斯的時候我們有一個7億是建制小型防災的微電網我的認為 我的理解是這個是建制新的微電網那在花蓮的馬太安溪的這次事件的時候我們只有修復的部分那我想請問的就是差別是什麼啦那其實呢 次長"},{"start":4927.856,"end":4944.707,"text":"我的理解到目前為止沒有錯誤嘛對不對上面那個有丹納斯的時候有修復有建置新的然後馬太安的這個部分是只有修復舊的目前看起來是這樣是 我分兩個層面跟委員說明丹納斯跟馬太安的一個不同"},{"start":4945.347,"end":4960.332,"text":"我們光復鄉或是北邊的鳳林鄉比較偏近市區至於說丹納斯的部分我們對於小型的這些路維電網是在山區或是偏遠地區但是第二個部分跟委員說明我們認為"},{"start":4961.412,"end":4980.335,"text":"整個加強供電的這個韌性的部分微電網的建置在全國是有必要的除了丹納斯原來編編的這個八億元之外我們現在也請能源署針對於全國的這個微電網再去研提一個整合性的計畫希望奉行政院"},{"start":4980.455,"end":4989.958,"text":"所以你已經請能源署在做這件事情的研討有包括建制的預算了嗎這個就是我等一下想問你的問題我想請這個內政部長 劉部長您先回答一下我這另外再給你看一張圖剛剛賴市長這邊講到了我就是想要問的問題其實對於丹納斯有建制小型微電網"},{"start":5000.441,"end":5017.327,"text":"和馬太安這個部分馬太安特別條例沒有建制我其實還可以理解為什麼因為是災後重建的條例所以我們等於是在救災丹納斯的時候連電的發電都沒有了所以在這個部分我們要連建制的部分下去"},{"start":5018.167,"end":5032.538,"text":"馬太安的部分因為它的電就好好的它沒有毀壞的狀態所以我們在這個部分沒有配置建置小微電網我白話文的理解是這樣的話那我可以接受這樣的狀況可是兩者的災害狀況讓我們認識到其實還是有必要要建置防災型的微電網你看像我新北烏來我們在2015年的時候也是經過重大的風災"},{"start":5043.206,"end":5060.171,"text":"可是在那個之後德拉南因為建置了防災型的微電網所以後來再也沒有缺過電了好 那內政部的資料國土署的內政部資料很清楚的可以看到我們現在有114年議城孤島地區需要設置太陽光電及小水力發電的盤整情形一共有184處議城孤島"},{"start":5068.874,"end":5084.057,"text":"那麼在地方政府認為有需要的部分如果以光電48處 水利發電有4處那有這個52處看起來連地方政府也認為有需要的那我剛剛的問題其實會不會跟次長剛剛回答其實有點接近啦"},{"start":5084.437,"end":5101.37,"text":"我的問題就是那在重建的特別預算沒有編列那未來不管是內政部的防災計畫也好或者是經濟部你要怎麼配置也好有沒有任何一個單位用哪一項的預算幫這個國家比較需要的部分建置微電網"},{"start":5102.891,"end":5128.778,"text":"這就是我的問題因為這是你的資料所以我特別請部長上台好 謝謝委員的關心我想非常的重要就是說我們目前跟經濟部已經在盤點也跟地方政府有做這方面的評估所以你們會合作評估出來就是有需求而且現在的地形地物的條件之上可以做的我們會先做但是有些地形地物上面或者是說整個的社區上面要配合比較慢的狀況之下站在我們消防署是一個防災的角度我們先規劃 譬如說"},{"start":5130.618,"end":5151.383,"text":"它是一个用那个电池的方式来协助它预防它在天灾真的变成孤岛的时候它要用电的需求所以我们有这个中长程的计划在做评估那也不一定是列到这次的特别预算因为这次特别预算是以复原重建为主没错 所以我完全了解我刚刚也特别帮大家爬出了我要的其实就是这个结果"},{"start":5151.823,"end":5164.047,"text":"就是國家也會重視這個計畫我希望未來不管是在內政部的防災計畫也好或經濟部你要在能源組或其他任何地方也好我希望有這樣子的一個預算配置來建置國家的微電網 謝謝謝謝蘇小慧委員好 部長請回 OK 好接下來請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請內政部部長"},{"start":5182.359,"end":5182.379,"text":"請劉部長"},{"start":5193.254,"end":5211.53,"text":"委員好 部長好部長我先針對馬太安溪燕舍湖災後我想請教的是因為每一次現在發現花蓮不論是光復鄉或名利村這樣子每一次大雨或者是颱風過後會變成整個"},{"start":5215.274,"end":5229.355,"text":"道路整個泥濘或者是說整個艷澀湖溢流那我想請教因為這個災民其實到了這個紅色警戒可能災民就要疏散到這個安置的一個地方那"},{"start":5230.296,"end":5251.534,"text":"我認為就是說這幾個地方應該要好好去思考這些居民如果說災後譬如說颱風過後然後我們又把道路或者是家裡面的泥沙清完之後下一次的颱風或下一次的大雨又造成地區的這樣子的淹水然後又整個土石"},{"start":5252.695,"end":5268.995,"text":"這個泥流下來其實我覺得對這邊的災民確實是非常的辛苦那當然就是說地區有人在提到就是說是不是有一個中繼安置的一個計畫那我覺得說這個地方是不是"},{"start":5270.717,"end":5286.636,"text":"讓這些災民或是讓這些村民能夠到一個比較安全的地方而且是讓他可以在那邊安身立命的地方而不是說每一次颱風過後或者是洪水來的時候就要求他們要去安置的地方安置所"},{"start":5287.156,"end":5303.472,"text":"那這個大水過後又回到自己的這個家裡面其實我覺得這樣子反反覆覆對他們來講都是一個心理的煎熬那是不是可以先請部長回答好 謝謝黃委員的關心黃委員苦民所苦我們都非常了解現在目前的復原重建計畫從上游的這個監測"},{"start":5306.135,"end":5330.162,"text":"是我們的農業部在負責監測的部分現在越來越有科學的數據可以讓我們了解如果還有其他的天然災害的話我們怎麼樣做好的監控然後再來就是水利署他們在做超級提防的部分在這是短期裡面先防災的角度然後減災然後你提到有關於居民如果要離災的話第一個我們要先跟居民要做充分的溝通"},{"start":5330.902,"end":5336.283,"text":"也就是說他們願意先到中紀屋去現在行政院指導之下我們現在已經有150戶左右在做規劃還有他們如果願意做比較長遠的規劃的話第一個我們必須要跟縣市政府或鄉鎮公所達成共識包括他們在國土計畫或者他們都市計畫裡面做真正要做大規模的移動或是大規模的遷移的部分的話我們會來協助可是在這次的重建特別預算裡面是以重建跟復原為主"},{"start":5360.248,"end":5385.239,"text":"那未來如果有這樣子的必須要做的話我們會尊重地方政府的要求那在內政部包括我們的國土計畫或是包括我們的都市計畫甚至處理鄉規計畫我們都會來協助好 我希望就是說不論是中央或地方大家一起合作讓所有的民眾都能夠在當地安身立命而不是每次大雨或颱風來就非常的害怕可能家裡面的家當所有的財產就這樣流"},{"start":5386.42,"end":5390.981,"text":"留走了是好那謝謝部長那接下來我想請教那個農業部部長陳部長喂"},{"start":5405.202,"end":5421.93,"text":"部長好部長我想請教就是說從那個非洲豬瘟發生到現在也將近快一個月的時間那這個一個多月的時間那你們這個廚餘淨養豬也差不多一個月的時間那我想請教部長你的意見就是說這個廚餘淨廚餘養豬"},{"start":5427.853,"end":5442.288,"text":"未來農業部是有什麼樣的計畫或者是因為我們看到現在多數的豬農認為這個廚餘不應該再來養豬因為萬一如果還有一個非洲豬瘟的話影響到的整個豬的產業鏈將近2000億我想請教部長你的意見"},{"start":5447.298,"end":5466.183,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是我之前也說過了就是初一本身如果落實徵組他安全的時候初一養豬是沒問題的所以我們有三個前提就是說整個徵組設備他一定要有及時的監控然後地方政府要落實稽查然後設備要相關的匹配"},{"start":5467.023,"end":5490.914,"text":"所以部長我要跟你講的就是說萬一所以我覺得中央政策應該要很明確既然說目前全台灣就是百分之八左右養豬場百分之八左右是用廚餘養豬那有可能這些百分之八如果萬一不小心然後又有這樣的一個非洲豬瘟產生"},{"start":5492.254,"end":5510.769,"text":"這個影響是全面的養豬業所以我想請教部長未來這個部分除於禁養豬這個部分是不是中央也要好好去思考要不然萬一如果還有一次我想謝謝委員的提醒其實我們跟行政院還有環境部這邊一直在討論那以農業部的本身當然"},{"start":5511.71,"end":5528.095,"text":"只要有廚餘就是一個風險但是廚餘本身是不是能夠有一個有效的去再利用或去化如果說我們一下子馬上進的時候那後面造成的環境的影響那更大所以我想我們會持續跟環境部在溝通"},{"start":5528.875,"end":5545.739,"text":"相關的中央的政策應該很快就會有一個比較完整的所以應該是後續的配套全部對 配套措施我們會出來目標就是處於進養豬是那後續的配套應該要去好好對 我們會盡快的提出來後面的轉型的一個輔導我們盡快會提出來是 好 謝謝好 謝謝黃樹方委員好 謝謝"},{"start":5553.089,"end":5561.017,"text":"接下來請振天才委員質詢賴慧妍委員下一個下一個"},{"start":5576.041,"end":5595.95,"text":"好 主席有請行政院公共工程委員會陳主委還有內政部劉部長好 請陳主委內政部劉部長農業部部長農業部陳部長還有我們主席長主席長 OK 好好 這個主委委員好"},{"start":5605.185,"end":5627.27,"text":"花蓮馬太安吸菸社福災後重建特別條例第一條的第三項特別規定重建地區位於原住民族部落並因應原住民族基本法相關規定辦理我們馬太安的青年部落青年會馬太安部落的青年這個"},{"start":5630.168,"end":5648.354,"text":"昨天發了一個新聞聲明特別提到300億重建預算失衡行政院必須立即修正重建不能再重演沃拉克的錯誤我們提出五大訴求重建應以人的安全"},{"start":5650.091,"end":5677.147,"text":"居住前文化永續為核心而不是以工程量作為一個指標所以提了五項提升中繼住宅預算不能讓工程99% 災民1%再度上演然後第二個是落實自由事前私情同意重建不能跳過部落第三 安全文化土地優先中繼住宅閒置不能草率強推"},{"start":5679.277,"end":5702.133,"text":"第四 建立安全有尊嚴的避難與中繼系統災民不應該每次都逃到學校第五 工程不能凌駕人與文化重大工程需透明與審議這五大聲明 等一下我會把這個五大聲明這個等一下給主委因為你是整個法阿里的一個主管機關好 這個接下來"},{"start":5707.577,"end":5736.975,"text":"內政部部長就請回座等一下 內政部部長等一下下我們先從農業部開始還有公共工程委會主委好 委員好昨天我有跟行政院院長質詢你也知道這個馬太安西菸社福它是最主要的剛才的聲明也提到人民的安全"},{"start":5737.85,"end":5762.86,"text":"是最優先 這個源頭沒有處理你在做怎麼樣的復建家屋 公共設施都做了堤防也做了 如果又潰壩所以這個部分你花了14.3億14.3億 我再確認一下到底有沒有要挖那個壩體"},{"start":5764.525,"end":5786.292,"text":"我跟委員報告就是整個的霸體本身的一個處理它有非常多的模式那從過去這一個多月來我問簡單因為時間的關係有沒有要挖那個霸體14.3億裡面有沒有要挖霸體第一個就是不可能全部用人工去挖因為每一次的好雨它本身就會帶出我們都談過很多次了主委 陳主委"},{"start":5792.469,"end":5811.163,"text":"我們要很審慎的現在很嚴肅的問題很嚴肅花了14.3億結果霸體還是存在這是按照你的說法霸體還是存在我跟委員說明一下14.3億結果霸體沒有挖"},{"start":5819.119,"end":5825.708,"text":"如果是這樣 我建議我只能建議我昨天也是說建議專業團隊趕快開會甚至開國際標開國際標"},{"start":5833.186,"end":5848.28,"text":"到底多少錢可以把那個壩體挖下來我跟委員說明我只是建議 不必說我們昨天已經在就是你壩體裡面的是水尋達三次了有那麼多水你把它炸開底下要接得住"},{"start":5849.221,"end":5875.135,"text":"好像樓上三樓那麼多水倒下來我只是很嚴肅的講所以馬太安溪要先輸進才接得住我剛剛講 花了14.3億結果霸體還在然後地震或是颱風又潰壩這個是很嚴肅的所以我建議你開國際標還這麼當然你要先開專家會議所以優先要做變道上去才有更詳盡的監測跟規定"},{"start":5877.856,"end":5878.378,"text":"按照106年的規定106年中央的規定"},{"start":5884.178,"end":5909.203,"text":"烟射伏霸体就是要开挖易流道这是紧急工程中最有效的方法这不是我写的中央的规定时间的关系因为特别条例刚刚是一个中央的一个标准现在特别条例也规定马太安西烟射伏的整治这是第一条"},{"start":5910.583,"end":5923.114,"text":"解決霸體這是第一個最重要的一個工程所以這個部分你們回去再好好的討論好 時間的關係這個部長內政部部長這個光復鄉也要請主計長的支持光復鄉公所它也是一個受災"},{"start":5934.226,"end":5959.135,"text":"我請教一下你們有沒有要補助他們這次的特別預算有沒有補助沒有所以就請這個內政部請相公所提報計畫從一倍金有15億的一倍金我們會詳細評估跟災修有關的都會考慮在內這個部分拜託跟災修有關的都會考慮在內他們真的是受災了然後最忙"},{"start":5960.376,"end":5987.854,"text":"忙了快两个月了事实上不止两个月包括前面的撤离真的是不止他们也很辛苦 对真的是包括这些文件你看看 好不好另外农业部 部长你的那个11月10号的回函真的是不符合你当初答询我的时候"},{"start":5989.341,"end":6007.203,"text":"完全不符合所以然後呢時間主席已經站起來了然後我也開了協調會的結論這個部分另外就是很重要的就是說立法院也做了一個附帶決議就照這個附帶決議去處理好不好"},{"start":6008.688,"end":6025.541,"text":"我跟委員報告能處理的我們一定第一時間就處理掉了現在這個文就是有問題嘛你們的這個文就是有問題嘛就沒有辦法嘛 好不好回去再檢視一下就按照立法院所做的附帶決議 好不好"},{"start":6026.823,"end":6045.855,"text":"不是 如果土地不合法的時候我們就完全不能處理那相關的農機的部分他沒有農機使用證那我們可以從官認定那相對單純啦這個你在立法院在經濟委員會親口答覆我的這個部分你回去再好好看一下好 謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請賴會員委員質詢"},{"start":6057.565,"end":6060.933,"text":"謝謝主席 有請財政部部長 主席請莊部長 主席長經濟部次長 陳主席長內政部部長 經濟部賴次長"},{"start":6068.378,"end":6096.683,"text":"工程委員會陳主委內政部劉部長我想表達立場支持預算同島一命本席也來自於就是台南丹納斯颱風的重災區那我深知道就是說災後的一個重建對地方的一個重要尤其這個漫漫的長路所以錢非常的重要可是"},{"start":6097.583,"end":6117.672,"text":"在支持預算的同時我更善盡的希望各位盡到高標準高監督的一個責任那當然就是說這個透明度非常重要會計的責任財政的距離絕對不能鬆散那我們也希望這270億可以做到看得到查得到"},{"start":6118.312,"end":6135.024,"text":"責任大家各自負擔那我想從這個圓餅圖裡頭我們來看到這一次270億的一個預算它集中在這個治水跟道路光是經濟部就佔了90億然後交通部有44.2億"},{"start":6137.786,"end":6160.063,"text":"這看起來超過一半所以未來的五年這個地方其實透明度最容易被挑剔的所以我們希望就是說跟各位請教一下如果確保這個條例適用的範圍具有最大的一個彈性跟效率你們有沒有辦法做到各位你們在座的每一位"},{"start":6161.802,"end":6175.755,"text":"應該是大家都沒有問題吧這個部分我們會沒有問題絕對會做得到而且我們希望說透過這個預算的支持來保護馬太安溪南北兩岸堤防的安全來確保我們國民"},{"start":6176.696,"end":6203.519,"text":"是不是 有沒有辦法做到就是說如果像我現在問你說你的輸進 輸進了多少立方有沒有辦法更精準的去承諾說可以講到了就是說我公開 我已經就是我的這個效益的一個指標我可以講到更精準就是說馬太安西上游的A段A段它的標投入了多少錢"},{"start":6204.76,"end":6221.548,"text":"這個有沒有辦法做這麼透明的一個就是系統性的一個治理這沒有問題我們過去工程表演除了依照公共工程委員會的這個所謂的透明之外水利署也建立了一個廉政平台"},{"start":6222.208,"end":6245.746,"text":"那在这边我跟委员说明举例来讲我们在年底之前本来需要预计输进是100万立方公尺然后截至到目前预计输进是将近40万立方公尺但是我们现在本来是100万现在是输进到40万所以你都可以非常我们现在输进"},{"start":6246.755,"end":6261.798,"text":"的進度已經超過我們年底預定的進度超過了200萬立方公尺所以就是說在這個資訊上面都可以非常的那個明確然後一起的成效也可以非常清楚的去表達是不是"},{"start":6262.689,"end":6281.578,"text":"對 我們有設定明年訊息之前要完成的防洪保護的標準還有包括預算執行期間的保護標準那接著我想請教財政部部長我想在這個第二項承諾的時候強化監督的機制那我們要杜絕這個會計跟財政的一個漏洞"},{"start":6282.498,"end":6311.598,"text":"當然我們知道特別條例他有很大的一個彈性他在行政部門裡頭就是說他賦予他很多的一個彈性那來執行那相對的立法院的一個審核跟監管的一個機制就必須要強那個再一次強化那我想在這裡問一下就是說財政部部長如果這個270270億那會不會就是排擠到你其他的中央的建設的一個經費"},{"start":6313.539,"end":6330.053,"text":"這270億全部都是用舉債來做支應那在這個特別條例裡面是有排除所謂的單一年度的流量的限制但是在實施期間仍然要符合這個整個期間的一個總流量的管制所以是沒有問題"},{"start":6330.974,"end":6347.793,"text":"這個部分因為這個是一個非常重要的而且對於這個國民的安全生命財產的安全很重要所以這個部分是用舉債來做支應而且又納入這個特別預算但是仍然要受債務控管的一個管制受債務控管在這裡我想請教內政部部長如果"},{"start":6350.896,"end":6377.601,"text":"我們用什麼樣的一個項目可以去取代代收代付的方式因為你中央你是用核實補助嘛那回到的地方是代收代付那你什麼樣的項目是絕對不能用代收代付的方式呢部長我們可能會尊重那個主計跟會計單位的說法吧因為所謂的強化監督機制就是怕說是不是裡面在招標的過程當中會有弊案"},{"start":6378.322,"end":6395.72,"text":"我們在中央的部分以我們這次災後重建是下水道的部分我們一定會強力監督部長我想你講得非常的清楚我是不是請教主計總長就是說這一個項目什麼樣的一個項目就是說你不可以用代收代付來執行"},{"start":6398.339,"end":6415.086,"text":"一般如果是緊急或災害的一個項目或者是他配合中央這種重大的政策一定時間完成的這個部分我們就可以用代收貸付那代收貸付等於是中央要負責審核的一個責任這個責任在誰身上"},{"start":6415.566,"end":6431.032,"text":"在地方政府還是在中央政府地方政府是負責執行但是部會他如果補助他的會計人員要進行審查這樣子他的核銷相關的核銷要回到部會來做審查就回到部會來做審查是 代收代付的部分大部分是這樣子"},{"start":6432.592,"end":6461.608,"text":"那這樣子我再請教謝謝主席長我再請教我們工程會主委對於線上工程的一個看板這個我們有辦法做到了就是說地點那個標案的名稱得標的廠商得標的金額我們相信這個是比較簡單的可是工程進度的一個百分比還有議定實施日這個其實基本上就是說你可以不可以同時納入第三方公正單位的查核的結果"},{"start":6462.048,"end":6478.574,"text":"我們可以確保重建的品質是不會加速因為加速而被犧牲的所有的公共工程大概5000萬年執行5000萬年以上工程會都有專案列管那會定期去查核會定期去查可是如果沒有超過5000萬呢"},{"start":6480.494,"end":6499.548,"text":"機關自己查核機關自己查那你們有沒有把握就是說在這一次花蓮縣政府他就是說五千萬以下那讓機關自己查會不會出現什麼疲弱呢這次的特別預算大概都全部中央在執行那有些補助農業部的補助是透過地方的農會或縣政府的農會處去造冊"},{"start":6501.429,"end":6528.209,"text":"那其中大概有一部分跟下水道或這個污水處理有關的會補助給地方政府來執行不過也超過五千萬好 主委那我在這裡再特別請教就是說主計長還有財政部長還有工程會主委就是說你們公開的記報跟會計的監督有沒有辦法用統一的一個格式有沒有辦法這樣來執行統一的格式"},{"start":6529.246,"end":6544.479,"text":"我們過去特別預算執行的往例是每一季會由主計總署向大院來報備是 是用報備的方式就是備查就是每一季都會執行情形都會向大院來報備"},{"start":6545.788,"end":6557.903,"text":"所以就是說基本上在這一次這個270億我們也可以用相同的一個模式相同的一個方式的一個監督我們也願意這樣子做啦好 那個主計長有沒有問題"},{"start":6560.707,"end":6584.834,"text":"這個部分我們是每一季都會做統計這個部分但是有時候工程進度和實際付款進度是不太相同這兩個還是有落差這個我們也會顯現出來好 那財政部部長來統一的格式我想這個部分我們一定用制式的格式對債務舉借的部分執行情況用制式的格式來做表達好 謝謝 謝謝大家謝謝主席好 謝謝我們那個委員接下來請李崑哲委員質詢"},{"start":6596.823,"end":6602.946,"text":"謝謝召委 請一下交通部陳彥博次長 工程會陳英德主委好 次長好馬太安溪橋是花東台九線的重要的交通橋樑那"},{"start":6622.407,"end":6636.261,"text":"這一次交通部公路局編列了42億8千萬元來作為馬太安溪橋搶修及復建的工程經費另外也補助花蓮縣政府"},{"start":6637.55,"end":6661.875,"text":"作为道路桥梁相关的这些经费的这些抢修的经费马太安溪桥大概是35亿元包含道路及桥梁的整修相关的包含光复 凤林这几个乡镇的道路桥梁也编了4亿3千万相关的进度是如何来说明一下"},{"start":6663.242,"end":6685.711,"text":"我想分兩塊有關馬太安溪橋的相關的分成三個階段一個是涵管的變道涵管的變道因為前些時候大概有一些損毀所以又再一次的修復原則上我們是朝著這個月的25號是不是可以讓它完成來通車另外還有一個所謂的鋼變橋鋼變橋的部分我們預計在明年的1月31號來完成"},{"start":6690.373,"end":6694.399,"text":"那長期的復建的一個橋樑我們希望在115年的年底北上線能夠來通車當時的北上線通車的時候就可以雙向通行然後再來再過個半年希望能夠把這個南下線也一併完成這是有關在公路局"},{"start":6708.617,"end":6732.834,"text":"負責的這個修復的部分那至於補助地方縣市政府的部分那是由地方縣市政府提出相關的一個修繕的一個路段計畫那由我們東分局來做審查公路局交通部所負責的部分必須全力的搶修儘早的恢復花蓮鄉親朋友的日常正常的一個生活的機能那我請教一下工程會工程會在每季都會盤點"},{"start":6734.215,"end":6758.661,"text":"沒有依規範來維修的這些橋樑到2025年的第三季結束預期未維修的橋樑我們來看U等於4的有22座中央2座地方政府20座U等於3的有423座中央有20座地方政府有403座"},{"start":6762.048,"end":6780.567,"text":"U等於4是安全平等中是屬於需要立即補強的一個等級那U等於3是必須在一年內來完成相關的維修及補強那22座橋樑目前是處於要立即進行"},{"start":6782.572,"end":6798.016,"text":"補強但是他現在卻是預期的一個危險狀態那有423座橋樑其實是養護不足的這樣的一個情形那我請教一下工程會你如何去督促中央級地方來加強橋樑的這些養護來請說明一下橋樑的檢測跟維護當然是主管機關"},{"start":6804.537,"end":6832.979,"text":"工程會的角色是要去盤點要去了解各機關有沒有按時去檢測有沒有依檢測結果比方說U4 U3去進行改善那麼工程會都有持續去督導跟查核那對於如果機關未依這個規定來進行比方說可能有的要改建或者是要整修的工程會會單獨針對這些機關特別發函要求他們改善"},{"start":6833.72,"end":6836.641,"text":"好 陳元柏次長來簡單再補充說明一下"},{"start":6837.216,"end":6843.241,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關縣市的老舊橋樑在屬於交通部所要負責縣市裡頭跟委員報告一下所有的各縣市對於橋樑的檢測大概都有按照這種方式來做幾乎達到百分之百但是至於剛才這裡特別提到大於3 4要做修復的這部分我們是透過每一年的縣市的一個考核養護考核裡頭去看"},{"start":6866.978,"end":6880.203,"text":"如果有這些橋樑要修復的部分沒有做我們會督促他做另外有部裡頭公路局有相關的經費來補助他們每三年大概15億的經費這是很重要的一個環節相關的橋樑不管是必須立即性的補強維護或是一年內必須要加強維護的這些作為全國還有那麼多的橋樑這個對人民的生命財產保障是非常大的衝擊必須加緊相關的一個措施"},{"start":6896.75,"end":6920.985,"text":"我认为工程会应该跟交通部还有运营所以及各县市政府要加强合作我们必须要依照它的风险的一个程度构造的形式地理的位置甚至是交通的流量以及既有的结构等等来建立分级以及养护的一个制度来建立这种养护的履历来 陈彦博你简单说明一下目前的作为"},{"start":6922.537,"end":6947.344,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下工程費當然是整個人匯整那其實在橋樑下來主管機關包含交通部內政部等等的都有負責要去督導的縣市跟他所要督導的橋樑那這一部分剛才我也特別提到尤其是對於U等於4的這個要立即要修復的部分我們會透過縣市的督導然後而且相關經費的補助請他儘速的完成"},{"start":6950.925,"end":6976.678,"text":"那至於U大於3的部分U等於3是要一年內修復那這個我們也會跟縣市政府來加強陳主委 我一直認為工程會是必須要領頭來建立小組以及相關的審查程序你各單位 各維護單位它要提供人力以及物力的相關的協助工程會都有在進行甚至最近也在研議關於檢測方法"},{"start":6978.619,"end":7006.298,"text":"不同的检测方法可能会导致不同的判断不同的检测我们还是要加强高科技的这些巡检的状况空拍机或者是AI影像的辨识技术或者是大数据的模型等等来提高巡检的一个效率就是比较接种一些设备好 那我们这个都会全力的支持也必须要积极的加强这些相关桥梁的维护来保障人民的生命财产安全"},{"start":7007.674,"end":7009.9,"text":"好 謝謝李昆哲委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":7027.25,"end":7038.881,"text":"主席 在場委員先進列席了政府經濟上官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請行政院陳主席長 財政部莊部長以及經濟部的賴次長經濟部賴次長 請委員好主席長好部長好 還有我們次長好"},{"start":7051.254,"end":7073.469,"text":"來 主席長我們明年度的預算規模支出是超過3兆是好 請問財政部長我們的稅務是不是2.8兆是的身為我們國家的財政大臣你覺得這樣的要求有這樣的稅務會不會有點吃力這樣的稅務其實因為明年的稅務會減少主要因為在我只問你簡單回答就好好"},{"start":7076.325,"end":7096.525,"text":"你們知道嗎 目前我們預算當中我請教次長 賴次長你覺得我們經濟建設的預算較多還是這三張預算佔最大數的是什麼明年的總預算最大宗的正式別水利 社福 還是什麼沒辦法回答 來"},{"start":7100.551,"end":7124.482,"text":"國防支出將近9500億足足比去年多了比前一年多了1000塊800億將近逼近我們GDP的3.32那你覺得國人支持嗎主席長我們的民意調查一半的國人支持這裡面大部分的國防預算在過去的年度當中從2000年以來有四位總統"},{"start":7126.045,"end":7141.011,"text":"這四位總統當中我們看到有編國防預算特別預算的有誰 陳水扁總統當時編了六千億但是沒有被國會接受蔡英文總統任內編了快五千億通過了 是不是這樣子是"},{"start":7141.667,"end":7163.82,"text":"可見過去從2000年以來這四位總統陳總統重視國防蔡總統重視國防國會有支持那接下來我們的特別預算是編什麼我們來看一下我們來猜猜看來 請教蔡次長你覺得過去的幾任總統對哪個部門比較重視救災還是振興經濟還是國防"},{"start":7166.952,"end":7173.281,"text":"台灣因為地理位置的關係所以我們需要水利的建設很好 我們來看一下"},{"start":7174.498,"end":7199.447,"text":"李登輝總統的時候遇到921特別預算800億陳水扁總統我們有三個治水預算對不對賴市長其中呢防疫紓困也佔了500億也是遇到了天災或一些事情振興經濟花了5000億馬英九總統裡面都在做振興建設災後重建還保留了兩項治水預算是不是所以治水過去是我們的主軸再往下看"},{"start":7201.29,"end":7225.551,"text":"來 我們看蔡英文總統之後結果遇到COVID-19有防疫紓困就佔了一半 快一半國防開始出現了振興經濟也加了三分之一兩兆六千億主席長我們的特別預算從李登輝總統的八百億到陳水扁總統的七千多億到了馬英九總統的八千多億一下到蔡總統變成了兩兆六"},{"start":7226.533,"end":7236.399,"text":"您覺得特別預算對我國家的一個財政有沒有產生一個很大的一個部門還是很大的壓力我們怎麼有辦法編出這麼多的特別預算"},{"start":7237.683,"end":7256.459,"text":"將近我們明年的稅數的規模了嘛 是不是這樣蔡總統半年任內我們的稅數規模也不到三兆嘛 對不對可是八年的特別預算就將近是一年的總預算所以可以說蔡總統做了八年的總統用了九年的預算規模 可不可以這樣講"},{"start":7257.5,"end":7274.31,"text":"好 那國家財政 莊部長那國家財政能夠支持嗎為什麼那時候蔡總統做8年的總統可以用到9年的年度總預算規模我有幾項特別預算非常重要像前瞻基礎建設計畫因為這樣的一個帶動經濟成長 稅收成長所以我們有多餘的錢就去還債所以整個財政運氣很好那你覺得未來我們還有蔡總統這8年的黃金時光可以再去支撐同樣規模的特別預算嗎"},{"start":7286.678,"end":7305.724,"text":"如果這樣的一個在現在這樣情況而這個錢如果不是做最好的運用的話那沒有辦法帶動經濟成長所以說我們來看一下賴總統不到兩年我們就用了7000億的特別預算了大家來想想看接下來我們還有哪些錢要花往下看"},{"start":7307.403,"end":7321.95,"text":"有治水有防疫有災害重建有紓困振興有建設發展還有國防還有關稅衝擊還有哪些國家的重大問題需要特別預算還是公務預算就可以支應是要中央調度還是要地方支出主席長你認為呢要用特別預算公務預算還是中央來調度還是地方支出未來這些事情有沒有可能地方來出錢不可能對往下看這些事情不可能地方來出錢但是我們來看一下"},{"start":7338.383,"end":7364.301,"text":"憲法規定第十章到第十三章社會福利是地方的一半事項目前我國的社會保險誰在出錢我們來看一下李登輝總統時候的公保虧損七百多億他手上就要撥補完成接著我們各後來的總統總共撥了四千三百六十億加起來最後加上未來的七百億會高達五千八百億這些錢是地方出還是中央出"},{"start":7367.301,"end":7396.585,"text":"目前是誰出 主席長這是誰在出波普的錢是誰出的中央的預算還是地方的預算波普的錢是中央在出中央出的好我們來看現在我們有就職的公教退休有公務人員退府有勞保 國保跟農保這些除了三個後面社會保險由中央政府 由政府負最終責任之外這兩個退府基金其實基本上他要設法自己去"},{"start":7397.816,"end":7398.136,"text":"去填補對不對"},{"start":7428.416,"end":7451.731,"text":"這20兆的潛藏負債財政有沒有辦法支應這個部分確實是基於社會安全保險起伏是未來的一個潛藏負債是的 那我現在問一下主席長那個財化法之後我們現在地方拿走那麼多錢中央有能力去負擔這20兆的潛藏負債嗎往下看這個是有困難的困難的嘛現在再修的財化法要再舉債560億5600億5600億 對有沒有超過公債法上限"},{"start":7457.776,"end":7480.052,"text":"有沒有辦法執行政府能違法嗎所以這個部分如果沒有縮減那縮減要縮減哪些項目這就是一個問題所以我說我們現在在省特別預算我們特別預算恐怕財化法被二修之後中央政府再也沒有能力透過特別預算來支應我們現在這270億的天災的一個補救了"},{"start":7483.905,"end":7502.02,"text":"所以在這裡呢 要提醒行政院裁判法 院版的裁判法要堅持到底不然的話 未來中央的財政惡化潛藏的負債沒辦法支持未來也沒有能力用特別預算來補足天災應變的這些能力組長同意嗎是部長同意嗎沒有錯好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":7512.728,"end":7515.329,"text":"好 接下來請李燕秀委員質詢謝謝召委我是不是可以邀請經濟部的長賜以及工程會的陳主委好 陳主委好 委員好"},{"start":7542.86,"end":7561.606,"text":"長賜主委好今天我要借因為你們兩個都在財務會今天來到財務會我要借一個議題今天你們兩個在質詢一個問題有關於生威能源商業的爭議這兩天我看到新聞媒體有在報導這件事情發展到現在的結果"},{"start":7562.486,"end":7584.695,"text":"是政府輸 業者也輸而且也影響民眾對於再生能源的看法當然對於我們台灣未來發展再生能源當然也會有一定的衝突我想請問部長常志到目前為止深威其實在今年6月18號第二季其實已經發布因為他是上市三位公司他就發布了重訊"},{"start":7585.655,"end":7604.415,"text":"离岸风电的建制成本大幅的提高不管是俄乌的战争海象的问题或者是原料的上涨等等有很多问题我想不用在这边赘述经济部在这一段时间之内到底做了哪些事情来排解台电跟厂商的争议"},{"start":7604.835,"end":7629.331,"text":"因為這件事情發展到現在的結果大家都不願意看到我們台灣發展再生能源是輸的很多業者未來本來有機會投入幫台灣再衝一下把綠能再生能源提高這是國家政府政策重要目標但是現在看起來因為很多不可抗力的因素沒關係 因為後面要送工程會去做調解但看起來是三輸業者輸 政府也輸然後民眾對這個看法也有問號"},{"start":7633.369,"end":7654.076,"text":"勝威公司依照同胞的合約承攬台電公司離岸風電二期的部分有關於工期或是預算或是因為工資提高的關係經濟部在不管是契約的協調協處的過程現在是已經送到工程會來做調解"},{"start":7654.716,"end":7656.337,"text":"6月18 現在都已經11月了 12月了要送工程會 工程會怎麼判沒關係因為工程會是獨立專業的單位 我們尊重"},{"start":7665.373,"end":7690.109,"text":"但是已經拖了四五個月在上面繞這個是造成現在山蘇最轉圓你們經濟部做了什麼沒有 我們針對李岸峰第二期的工程針對他在施工中獲得的一些的困難我們經濟部有協調 這是第一點第二點 針對於這個契約的這個履約的爭議在送工程會之前因為它涉及的事項相當的多所以經濟部有先去做履約爭議的協處的一個作業"},{"start":7693.808,"end":7705.202,"text":"協處了幾次有結果嗎因為這個協處的結果兩方的這個差距還是相當的所以決定送工程會 對"},{"start":7706.795,"end":7732.775,"text":"我覺得那個我尊重後面沒有共識競速的送工程會因為工程會畢竟是獨立單位趕快讓工程會有一個結果出來我尊重工程會後續的結果但是要加快腳步因為現在看起來就是三書那我要請問陳主委工程會陳主委目前對於這些案子調解或建議的方向工程會的方向是什麼大概什麼時候會有結果出來本案他們已經到工程會申請這個理業正義調解"},{"start":7734.156,"end":7756.467,"text":"所以在申訴委員會裡面也派調解委員因為現在看起來速度不快就是說工程會調解的結果是什麼我們不介入但是必須要盡快的去進入 趕快後面排序其中有一部分已經同意和解了就是關於顧願款保留款這一部分已經和解了那剩下價金跟工期還在調解當中"},{"start":7758.584,"end":7786.955,"text":"沒有關係就是沒有辦法有共識你們就盡速的開會有一個結果出來否則Pending在那邊是造成刪除這是我主要問今天問題的原因時間先暫停三位請回我是不是可以請主席長跟環境部今天沒有來稍微今天也沒有衛福部有 環境部有都有是不是那請環境部跟衛福部"},{"start":7788.643,"end":7804.891,"text":"環境部是那個主席長那個無論是剛才大家提到特別預算我還是要提醒一下特別預算好用他可以年度很長他可以沒有公債法的限制但是跟財化法是兩回事情所以"},{"start":7806.131,"end":7825.298,"text":"這件事情我們後續還有機會再討論我今天還是要回到有關於兩次風災之後我知道這一次兩次風災之後我們有編列在環境部有編列災後廢棄物的清理跟災後疾病防治的部分我也關注到環境部對於環境的消毒預算編列了4億9500萬左右的經費"},{"start":7829.079,"end":7847.057,"text":"但是我們都知道每次風災過後都可能有病沒聞的滋生都有可能有感染疾病主席長你知道為什麼這一次衛福部沒有編列相關的預算嗎對於疾病的防治還是他們覺得公務預算來指引就夠了有編嗎 來衛福部回應我 有沒有編"},{"start":7850.231,"end":7865.385,"text":"包委員我們這次其實主要是針對這一個在災區那邊的一些診所他們裡面他們也有受損總共大概有10家然後這裡面有一些相關的一些器材你不用編預算喔萬一如果造成重大疾病的感染"},{"start":7866.065,"end":7880.318,"text":"我們現在目前有關於這個部分有關於你不要跟我講有關於疾病防治的部分你不要跟我講現在有關因為現在無論是流感就是說我們現在對於疾病的防治我們公務預算有現在因應現在流行感染疾病的做法"},{"start":7881.62,"end":7899.882,"text":"風災這是特別加進來的你就這麼有自信就不會有重大疾病的傳染 感染你不用另外再編一筆預算框在裡面去應付這些重大風災並沒有人能支撐譬如說現在是重大登革熱流行的期間你應該去編列一筆預算放在裡面去做支應嘛"},{"start":7901.141,"end":7920.495,"text":"这是第一点我要提醒你的地方你这个是放弃放弃阉割自己预算编列的权利第二个灾后的疾病的防治的重大责任你应该编列一笔你现在我们在流行A流 B流感那个都有公务预算要去支应是 报告委员我们在CDC这边都有编列相关的预算"},{"start":7921.124,"end":7944.626,"text":"所以这个就是卫福部的疏忽但是我要提醒环境部我要提醒环境部因为我们已经两次大的风灾我觉得你们现在对于病媒纹滋生都是清除为主 喷药为辅那现在针对于灾后疾病防治的目标有没有把握能够提升病媒纹滋生还有包括烈能的就是说烈管辅导的量呢有没有其他新的做法可以处理"},{"start":7946.232,"end":7954.102,"text":"病沒穩的資深這個我們還是你們現在都是不斷的噴藥噴藥噴藥嗎不是 循道清刷啦資深遠的清楚是最重要的不是噴藥"},{"start":7956.485,"end":7976.182,"text":"有沒有更進一步的做法有沒有其他更好的做法或國際間有沒有其他的做法可以處理因為現在看起來面對極端氣候的挑戰大風災雖然我們不樂意見但是我覺得對於病媒文資深量能的管理跟列管我們應該有更好的做法跟方法才對你有沒有其他的方式可以處理"},{"start":7977.829,"end":8002.619,"text":"這我們再參考看你沒有想到的方法所以這件事我今天問這個議題是凸顯出來主席長下次要編列這樣子的預算如果有我希望沒有我覺得衛福部跟環境部就是疏忽了在這一塊無論是疾病的防治或者管理病媒體的管理或疾病的防治都沒有編列相關的預算我們在環境經理有編預算"},{"start":8003.419,"end":8021.83,"text":"我知道啦但是我說你的量能跟你的量能跟輔導列管跟親屬的部分有沒有更進一步的其他的做法我覺得現在面對極端氣候政府不能只有我過去怎麼做我現在就怎麼做我覺得應該與時俱進有更多不同的做法"},{"start":8022.811,"end":8045.547,"text":"我們才看到一個政府AI政府進步行動政府進步的做法才對而不是跟過去都一樣我們過去不知道也會有艷澀湖這麼大的一次一大風災然後這麼多人投入那後面有可能產生的短期的疾病我覺得這要有不同的做法來列管那我非常遺憾這一次我們沒有看到環境部有進步的做法我更沒有看到"},{"start":8046.588,"end":8058.861,"text":"衛福部在這一塊編列相關的預算否則如果是大疾病的傳染的話你會排擠到我們一般公務預算去做疾病的管制跟防疫以上 謝謝好 謝謝李用歇委員接下來請賴銳龍委員質詢"},{"start":8072.25,"end":8082.32,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請原民會主委還有經濟部次長好 請曾主委還有賴次長還有交通部陳次長好 交通部陳次長"},{"start":8087.829,"end":8107.687,"text":"我想我先關心一下高雄有三個原民區其實是它的在幾次的風災都受到很重創很大的一個影響特別是道路很多道路中斷甚至於導致甚至有時候形成一個孤島的一些狀況所以這個也是要請包括"},{"start":8108.728,"end":8135.837,"text":"原民會甚至於包括交通部經濟部甚至農業部能夠大力來支持讓這些原鄉的區域的建設早日來恢復那當然裡面影響當然最重要交通啦因為交通不通的話幾乎是進出非常不方便所以這個東西要加速來完成那我第一個是不是也先請教一下這個民生橋的部分已經開始預定什麼時候來開工交通部說明還是在原民會說明交通部來陳次長好了好不好"},{"start":8139.497,"end":8166.416,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關這裡頭的這個民生橋目前正在規劃中預定明年開工嗎是明年什麼時候開工明年應該是2月的時候明年2月開工然後預定2027年完工是不是對我希望次長還是能夠請加快速度因為這個民生橋每次只要遇到好大雨颱風來的話那個"},{"start":8168.377,"end":8188.34,"text":"原來的舊的橋面就幾乎是水會整個我相信各位都去看過幾乎整個會蔓延過來那個橋就沒辦法通行因為通行很危險你一旦通行的話有可能就橋一旦被沖斷的話馬上就有人員會傷亡所以那個橋幾乎被封掉那封掉之後就形成孤島裡面的說的納瑪夏的原因"},{"start":8189.841,"end":8207.79,"text":"鄉親就全部形成是被困在裡面所以這個及早完成新的民生橋的時候這就能夠及早讓族人能夠出來的時候更安全所以我希望這一個能夠加速因為明年的2月動工如果2027年能夠提前來完工的話在"},{"start":8208.85,"end":8227.862,"text":"汛期期間能夠提前來完成的話那就有機會不管是遇到颱風或遇到好大雨的時候他們就避開了這個可能整個被封鎖甚至於成為孤島的一個效應避免這樣的狀況的發生好不好 這個請次長這邊能夠來加速我們再跟 我再跟公路局討論一下如何來加速反應"},{"start":8228.682,"end":8245.927,"text":"行政的程序上面請你們盡量加速工程上也請你們盡快找到好的廠商之後然後加快來完成這對當地的進出不然每次只要遇到好大雨一旦孤島效應封橋了以後完全無法進出這對於當地的居民是相當大的一個影響"},{"start":8247.908,"end":8259.782,"text":"再來是其他的很多的道路工程我看很多幾乎也都要到2026年底來才能夠來完成這個也是能不能請次長也能夠來加速"},{"start":8262.6,"end":8289.521,"text":"是 我想委員特別提到的這些我再來跟公路局包括那馬下 包括桃園其實都是幾乎我看了一下所有的給我的答案幾乎都是多數都是在2026年的年底前完成對 但我還是希望能夠次長再開個會議一下由你親自來開了好不好然後把相關單位找來也問一下了解一下每一個狀況的進度如果能夠 特別是"},{"start":8290.962,"end":8303.719,"text":"就是就族人的使用上面比較迫切需要的能夠提前來完成的話那對於他們都有相當大的一個注意好嗎好 這個請次長來召開一下好嗎是 沒問題那召開的結果也讓我知道一下是 好不好好"},{"start":8305.579,"end":8327.373,"text":"接下來我也請教一下裡面當然包括原名的水保包括農路這有些涉及到農業部的部分我也想要確定一下包括這些相關的經費的部分都是確定的嗎農業部要不要也一起這個水土保持跟農路的經費的部分這個是不是都已經是確定的來 部長"},{"start":8333.9,"end":8361.238,"text":"裡面涉及到納瑪下 涉及到茂林 涉及到桃園的部分跟委員報告就是有關於高雄您所關心的高雄地區的那個水保的計畫那當初地方那個高雄市政府編出來的部分那行政院這邊已經核列了那核列的部分當然有些是不夠的部分那不夠的部分我想我們會用其他的年度的這些水保的相關的計畫去支持所以這邊總數大概6.1億的部分都會給予支持嗎"},{"start":8363.263,"end":8391.598,"text":"前面4.2億跟農路的1.9億的部分因為這兩次的這幾次的豪大雨跟颱風其實對於原鄉三個原鄉造成很大的影響那也希望能夠全力來支持因為我們特別有特別預算然後也特別我剛才說過的就是說在丹納斯這邊撥補給地方政府的部分那這個部分如果不夠的時候我們會年度的這些相關的計畫來支持"},{"start":8392.478,"end":8410.124,"text":"所以會盡量去滿足這邊的需求那請部長就全力來支持這些預算是那最後再請教一下我們這個有防災省的治水的部分這個是不是也請包括51.68億甚至於縣市河管區排的等等有5億包括老榮溪的0.5億的部分"},{"start":8412.164,"end":8440.33,"text":"這個是經濟部跟農業部嗎對 整體自然防洪的部分是由農業部來負責這個部分我想我們也會來協助這個也會支持51.68億的部分也會給予支持我希望部長因為這幾個都是涉及到比較需要的我知道因為那邊有很多大規模崩塌跟土石旅行自治區所以我們會特別重視這個地方因為上次我去看那個現場整個幾乎整個下來了整個幾乎土石完全下來如果不去做一些治水防洪的處理的話未來還是會持續的發生"},{"start":8441.59,"end":8446.553,"text":"了解 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝各位部長 謝謝市長謝謝賴日龍委員接下來請陳庭飛委員質詢謝謝主席我們請經濟部跟農業部賴市長還有陳部長"},{"start":8467.645,"end":8489.278,"text":"然後待會兒還有交通部我想因為時間很短我們就委員長邀請上來 謝謝我想先問經濟部就是說我們不論是我們這一次花蓮馬太安溪艷色湖的一個特別預算或是丹納斯的特別預算其實有一個重點就是我們的韌性電網"},{"start":8490.677,"end":8501.617,"text":"很重要的就是我們的電力如何去加強那這個部分如果在我們特別預算結束之後下一步不是只做這些"},{"start":8503.249,"end":8527.67,"text":"下一步針對電網的強振工作台電公司除了持續進行之外那我也請能源署針對於微電網的這些規劃要持續來辦理因為如委員所說特別條例只有一段時間是啊特別條例要處理的是受災區的對 災區那其他而且災區我必須說我們台南有兩三千基的電條但是呢"},{"start":8530.032,"end":8545.079,"text":"你在這一次特別預算你完全沒有辦法你只有在主幹線才有辦法他在接進去的時候你是完全沒有辦法支應的那這怎麼辦他還是脆弱的啊在這一次倒了之後他還是脆弱的啊那怎麼辦"},{"start":8546.189,"end":8570.649,"text":"我們針對電感的加強的部分除了用一型的電感來做加強之外針對沿海區域或是說縱向的省道的部分適合去做地下化的部分我們會來做是沒錯 你地下化做完再主幹線我知道 可是你再拉進去這一次是主幹線再到支幹線其實這一次都倒得非常嚴重"},{"start":8571.289,"end":8577.719,"text":"那在自幹線這一次的預算是沒辦法支應的連主幹線都沒辦法完全支應"},{"start":8579.488,"end":8606.586,"text":"在地下化的一個程度當中所以勢必我們在下一個階段一定要再編預算不預算的部分那這怎麼辦到底是台電要編台電每次要編就說我都虧錢沒辦法可是這個有一次我們的丹納斯已經給你提醒了提醒了老天爺給我們提醒了如果我們再不做下一次可能會更嚴重"},{"start":8608.263,"end":8630.623,"text":"市長 市委已經三聲五令了 要拜託謝謝委員提醒到底要怎麼去處理我也跟我們卓院長也請託過一定要一個方向 有一個專案到底是經濟部要處理還是台電要處理我們一定在特別預算之後一定要一個方向好 這個部分再拜託好 謝謝委員知道我們再拜託農業部"},{"start":8633.131,"end":8655.319,"text":"來 我也好部長 我想我們這一次所有山區的丹那斯還有所有在農漁業的損害都超出我們這一次我們特別預算所以如果我們報上來的跟我們現在所核准的大概是多少"},{"start":8658.206,"end":8679.84,"text":"用特別預算我們台南市政府報上來給我們農業部的我跟委員先報告就是當初在颱風來了以後有公共公眾委員會有跟地方政府提報他們所需要的總共是76.8而已這個部分不同的縣市裡面但是第二輪他們再報出來的時候會增加"},{"start":8680.96,"end":8699.058,"text":"那我們現在先從第一輪的部分先合第二輪的不夠的部分我們就用年度的本預算去支持因為如果我知道是你們大概合給台南的大概也只有一半而已啦差不多啦就是那些災損我是說要復建的我們台南這邊是幾乎全部了"},{"start":8699.707,"end":8716.494,"text":"沒有 有一些在我們那個緊急災損的部分我現在講的就是說因為當初由地方政府報出來的部分我們幾乎百分之百支持但是有一部分是不是當初地方政府報出來的部分是另外再增加的部分因為他有兩次啊我們就用本預算去支持可是第一階段說真的"},{"start":8723.737,"end":8738.856,"text":"重點是在後面所延伸出來的這個我知道因為委員的關心那我剛才說的就是第一件事政府編預算的時候76.82億那其他的並沒有編經費我們就用年度的本預算去支持用年度本預算我們年度本預算有這麼多錢嗎"},{"start":8739.517,"end":8753.945,"text":"沒有 不夠的因為有的是規劃有的是第二年在執行的部分我們再來協助這樣子好 再拜託因為這個其實已經造成人民的恐慌了因為大家都擔心如果再下一個丹納斯類似來到台南怎麼辦"},{"start":8755.746,"end":8772.849,"text":"所以大家會害怕了解好 這部分再拜託部長會 我們會來處理那我們拜託那個交通部我一直強調我在昨天也有跟我們院長做報告部長做報告這個部分確實是非常重要的就是我們土石流造成"},{"start":8773.89,"end":8798.528,"text":"車子損害的部分我們的這個花蓮馬太安西燕澀湖的特別預算是有的但是我們丹納斯是沒有的好這個部分我再一次拜託我們市長因為在省域中還是要提到否則大家會覺得有一個落差那我再一次強調我們不期待說哇那個像"},{"start":8799.429,"end":8811.718,"text":"那個花蓮的特別預算補助那麼多可是你總是要讓我們覺得說我們不要有被剝奪感都沒有 你看花蓮有 台南的沒有"},{"start":8812.819,"end":8835.459,"text":"人民的感受不一樣所以這個拜託次長這個一定要趕快人民才會銜接上來尤其今天已經在審特別預算然後馬上就會協商如果過了那個感受又會更不一樣所以到底我們對於丹納斯我們台南這些好大雨的泡水車怎麼處理再拜託次長回去跟我們部長報告一下謝謝"},{"start":8836.36,"end":8848.105,"text":"是 是 我們來朝這個方向來研究好 謝謝陳廷飛委員我們在這個張志倫委員質詢完畢休息十分鐘接下來我們請林月琴委員質詢"},{"start":8857.923,"end":8861.971,"text":"主席麻煩我們的交通部次長跟衛福部次長好 請陳次長還有衛福部呂次長呂次長"},{"start":8874.295,"end":8890.228,"text":"上早 因為交通領域也是我很關心的核心之一尤其是災後重建的交通接駁對當地的民眾事實上是非常的重要在聯合國減少災害風險辦公室也提出這樣的一個支持的論述"},{"start":8891.269,"end":8910.738,"text":"所以就先來問一下花蓮災後很多居民都跟我們反映說光復鄉的住民要進出偏遠部落或到市區接駁車就很不足影響到看診 上學 物資運送基本生活都受到影響市長目前你掌握狀況是什麼地方的政府有解決了嗎交通部又是怎麼協助的"},{"start":8913.102,"end":8931.063,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關那個地方接駁的這件事情我們有所謂的公共運輸的發展一個計畫在那個計畫裡頭我們大概對於偏鄉的或者是這種有災民地區需要接駁的我們有相關的一個計畫在做補助或推動"},{"start":8931.764,"end":8956.894,"text":"所以這一部分我想公路局大概會跟花蓮縣政府再來討論一下看是不是有這樣的一個輸運上的一個缺口那如果有這個缺口的話該如何來補強我想他們會來我要補充說明因為地方人士來跟我反映說現在的交通接駁的資源盤點根本沒有做好所以造成有資源送進去卻不知道怎麼合理配置甚至現在的交通運輸是靠臨時動之沒有"},{"start":8959.175,"end":8979.475,"text":"編列常態的預算假如哪一天預算用完了就會交通斷吹居民當然不安所以我想問市長這邊是不是願意協助先把運輸補助做完整的先做資源盤點而且把列入為花蓮馬太安西堰塞湖的那個災後重建特別條例的300億的特別預算"},{"start":8982.782,"end":8995.626,"text":"像我跟委員報告一下在災害來臨的時候相關的接駁是有在辦理的那這部分呢我想我們會持續來看怎麼樣繼續來在這段期間來辦理那至於說後續如何來補強這部分呢剛才我也特別提到會請那個應該是我們的北區吧北區監理所跟花蓮縣政府再討論不要再為交通煩惱了謝謝次長"},{"start":9010.071,"end":9010.612,"text":"市長請回接下來我們的衛福部市長這次花蓮的災情事實上是"},{"start":9018.897,"end":9043.825,"text":"鋪落一個非常嚴重的問題就是台灣部分縣市都還沒有建立健全的長照避難體系因為如果有的話最後罹難者最多的應該不會是長者最嚴峻的事實是獨居的高齡者跟重度障礙者在災難面前的最先受到傷害的人就是這群人現在宜蘭也傳出了有長者在水災當中不幸罹難在這個代表"},{"start":9044.665,"end":9071.991,"text":"的問題不是個案的失誤而是整體制度的沒有到位所以我們不能等地方政府栓緊螺絲我認為中央要有更積極的作為是 沒錯所以次長 針對花蓮的問題我先講兩個事實第一個 連最基本的撤離通知都沒有做到不是每位長者都有收到細胞簡訊更不用說撤離動線 撤去哪裡第二"},{"start":9072.631,"end":9097.136,"text":"後送安置配套亂成一團 完全沒有標準流程我們先不談個案 我要問的是會不會對這次災後中央跨部會協作以及促進督促我們地方政府改善的具體作為在哪裡包委員 我們現在目前大概有兩個主要的一個做法其實就整個蘇珊的那部分 還有那個撤離的部分基本上還是屬於地方政府的權責"},{"start":9097.996,"end":9111.367,"text":"這點我一定要強調當然就是說在這邊這個中央政府作為我們整個督導我們當然是責無旁貸那我跟委員報告我們現在目前大概就是也感謝大院這邊的一個支持我們的兩年之內我們現在有編了62億就是針對整個所謂獨居長輩獨居的這一個"},{"start":9114.749,"end":9140.736,"text":"為什麼我這樣問因為我手上有個正反對照的最清楚的例子高雄三區的行政區那馬下和桃園跟茂林 颱風來時的就很快的預防性的撤離不是等下大雨才跑優先去撤離我們的孕婦高齡者行動不便者高雄他這邊做得非常非常好非常迅速而確實所以我就要問你說台灣到底有沒有統一的長照身障者的避難體系"},{"start":9142.277,"end":9146.496,"text":"那為什麼每個縣市執行起來落差很大高雄可以做 為什麼花蓮做成這樣"},{"start":9149.605,"end":9172.462,"text":"所以就要希望你們接下來是不是能夠掌握地方政府就是要求地方政府要掌握優先通知 撤離名冊還有獨居的老人跟重度障礙者跟行動不便的那些人到底有沒有爆發進去你們要去檢視不能只有獨居長者到底誰負責敲門 誰負責疏散這個都要通體的去做規劃"},{"start":9173.763,"end":9192.193,"text":"而且災後如果遇到醫療中斷的時候停電偏遠地區怎麼處理那中央應該要有一個先行預置醫療轉介跟安置的流程這個可不可以做得到中央這一塊包委員我現在能不能簡單那個三點說明第一個就是說有關獨居長輩這是屬於民政那我們這邊會來跟內政部這邊督導就整個那個村裡"},{"start":9196.495,"end":9212.423,"text":"第二個有關長照的部分主要是長照室長照室這邊我們會協同機構另外第三個剛剛委員剛剛所說的有一些有關於獨居但是或者說有一些整個行動不便的我們到時候會來跟醫事室這邊就地形醫院這邊謝謝次長因為我覺得這個問題都是很多地方的社福團體都很關心我也知道次長都有在處理那兩週內請正式回覆我們辦公室好的 非常感謝委員 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":9224.029,"end":9229.35,"text":"好 我們謝謝林玉琴委員接下來請張志倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員早有請劉世芳部長好 請劉部長"},{"start":9256.334,"end":9281.72,"text":"委員好部長好部長針對這次馬太安溪的特別預算內政部在特別預算中編列28億主要負責災民相關最切身的家庭家園安置慰問金的發放跟基礎設施回復等關鍵項目主要就是要協助災民可以儘速重返正軌我想要先請教的是家園安置業務中編列3億"},{"start":9284.561,"end":9308.821,"text":"200萬元主要是要新辦中期安置站讓受災戶有一些中繼站可以居住因為現在今天很多委員都提到現在受災戶的數量大概是3000多戶我想要先請教一下目前來講中繼屋的安置數量以及中繼屋大概的預計時程是否可以讓這些受災戶可以安心居住"},{"start":9309.306,"end":9332.044,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關心我們針對這個中繼屋的部分目前在台塘這邊就是11加30那11的話可能年底之前就可以先完成那30的部分的話還要再一段時間但是在明年的春季之前應該比較沒有太大問題那我們目前的評估大概是150戶那最主要就是說也跟委員報告因為在這次的馬太安溪艷澀湖的這個災禍裡面"},{"start":9334.306,"end":9359.92,"text":"有些房子本來經過我們的耐震評估之後它是可以回去住的所以真正有需求的我們先從重災戶裡面先提出需求一戶一戶去拜訪他們謝謝好 所以大概重災的就是不能居住大概是約40戶然後未來會再建150戶我在想的跟這個部長請教的是為什麼3000多戶的受災戶裡面只有大概這麼少的"},{"start":9360.72,"end":9388.603,"text":"的住戶想要遷移的這樣子我們在這個訪談的過程是你們自己主動去跟受災戶請教的還是說還是你們自己有判定房屋的受損程度判定房屋的受損程度當然是跟地方政委一起合作目前因為他們如果清淤結束以後就回去可以安住的話大概就比較沒有太大的問題然後因為中基屋要建造的時候要請他們全部都搬出來"},{"start":9389.364,"end":9408.013,"text":"所以要他們馬上要離開這個光復鄉或者離開自己的住家確實有這個遷移上面的困擾所以我們事實上對於住戶或者是對於需要申請這個中繼屋的部分都有了解他們的意向才做這樣子的一個評估好 謝謝部長所以這邊我也很感謝大概第一線的救災員跟產值超人他們去把"},{"start":9409.994,"end":9430.891,"text":"很多災民的家裡給清掃完畢那當然那邊的住戶他們的當然他們的需求當然是希望可以回到自己的家園而不是住中繼屋那當然中央因為一些考量提供中繼屋我覺得是很重要所以我的意思就是說代表現在很多的災民他是回去去入住的這樣一個部分"},{"start":9431.431,"end":9452.402,"text":"所以這次在編列預算的時候其實中央其實就很需要去聽地方的一個聲音我這邊最重視很關心的就是有關於警察跟消防他們這邊他們當時在馬太恩西有關於潰堤的相關的部分他們是不是很多的相關的"},{"start":9452.982,"end":9465.569,"text":"執勤的車輛比如說警車或是救災救護車是不是有損毀的一個狀況請問中央內政部這邊有沒有統整他們現在受災整個損毀的數量是多少那有沒有跟中央來請託說他們現在整個的狀況你們掌握的狀況如何"},{"start":9469.431,"end":9493.057,"text":"有報告委員這兩個地方尤其是光復的部分我都有親自到那個地方去第一個他們的房舍現在的安全結構沒有太大問題所以如果在清淤跟清除的時候已經馬上做處理因為他們要馬上恢復警察跟消防的工作再來就是說個人的物品如果有受損包括機車 汽車我們也徵得公共工程委員會雖然戶籍不在那個地方還是會按照公共工程委所寬列的部分會予以補償"},{"start":9498.979,"end":9526.886,"text":"這個沒有太大問題我想要部長因為就我得知像光復消防分隊他們說因為受災的車輛破水受災經評估後無法修復所以他們想要把這些需要一些經費來做受損車輛的一些更換比如說消防水庫車跟消防勤務車三台這個水庫車三台勤務車兩台跟水箱車一台以及勤務機車四台是"},{"start":9528.406,"end":9554.226,"text":"这个部分的话是地方政府如果没有这样的资源来去做这个没有问题本来就是由消防署他们会全力来处理而且我们在那一天的时候署长已经告诉我说所以你们有掌握这样的资料说现在其实现场大型的消防车我们其实已经订购了因为这些损坏的部分现在是由谁来协助来做这些消防署有统整去做协助的地方所以会由消防署来做相关应的"},{"start":9554.366,"end":9570.558,"text":"而且那个进口的部分我们已经先定制了我想要请教部长当时您知道说为什么这些车辆会损毁是在救灾的路途上损毁还是因为当时没有及时的通报而在分队里面损毁大致上都在分队里面"},{"start":9571.658,"end":9587.643,"text":"我想要請教部長的問題就是說當時我們第一時間在通知這些我們第一線的救災的人員的時候為什麼他們沒有辦法及時的把這些車子給疏散報告委員我們都了解消防分隊他們的主要工作要先出去救災"},{"start":9588.864,"end":9605.758,"text":"這次大部分都是土石流或是有水流過來所以消防的部分它是在救火所以事實上等於是先去外面救別人所以自己的分隊裡面才會有這麼大的災損我們完全能夠體諒所以如果有車輛受損的部分的話我們消防署會全力來協助"},{"start":9606.378,"end":9629.619,"text":"所以部長意思是說我們已經出動了所有的能力可是還是造成這麼多在因為他們來不及去開出去而且因為大規模的土石淹過來的話車子也開不出去它其實最大的受損是裡面的整個的機具或者是馬達幾乎都進水或進沙那就拜託就是說如果是來不及來不及來救災的這個部分造成我們的車輛損毀的部分要請教"},{"start":9630.699,"end":9652.139,"text":"委員不是這樣他們是來得及救災但是去救別人所以消防車輛是停在自己的這個消防那個光復裡面那因為進水跟進砂所以整個車輛毀損最大是在這邊外觀都還好但是裡面是進水跟進砂因為這個數量也是蠻多的那就拜託消防署這邊盡快來協助地方來把這些車輛補齊當然好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9655.12,"end":9660.223,"text":"好 謝謝張志倫委員 謝謝部長接下來請林俊憲委員感謝主席本席邀請我們主席長好 請陳主席長財政部長在嗎財政部 莊部長"},{"start":9678.479,"end":9688.341,"text":"委員好主委長好主委長請教現在財化法第二次又再修了一修二修越修越惡劣"},{"start":9689.881,"end":9708.851,"text":"那現在我們本會期就也開始即將進入預算的審查那包括中央和地方的預算都在審議當中因為地方議會現在也在審查地方政府的預算那這次的財務法修正案就要求明年度的總預算有很大一個改變"},{"start":9710.792,"end":9725.86,"text":"那請問總預算要重編嗎可不可能重編會不會重編我們是也沒有能力的因為它超過公債法所以我們這個部分影響是真的很大那重編是有它的困難在所以這個部分我也要跟好那如果沒有辦法重編那怎麼辦"},{"start":9729.749,"end":9750.798,"text":"這就出現第一個問題因為這個部分我們預計禮拜四會提出財化法整的一個新的一個修正提到立法院裡面來那希望能夠通過這個立法院立法院能夠通過這個新的財化法讓我們整個一個整個縣市財政的一個分配更均勻然後整個一個支出就可以重新做調整"},{"start":9751.604,"end":9773.4,"text":"就是要通過院版的這個裁判法才可以解決目前的這樣的一個僵局嘛你的意思是這樣子嘛因為現在的在野黨再修了第二次的裁判法那你變成他要求中央給地方的補助都不能再減少嘛那你之前就已經跟中央搶了4100多億啊"},{"start":9777.942,"end":9792.324,"text":"4165億那這次又要求那你給地方的原本的補助5450幾億不能減少會增加2646億那所以造成你就必須要再舉債嗎因為我們現在舉債已經2992億然後再加上2646億就會舉債達到5638億那就會超過公債法的一個上限"},{"start":9800.086,"end":9814.246,"text":"公債法的比例是15%嘛你這樣一舉債 以後會到17%左右是不是這樣子是不是這樣子是那你就違反了公債法那現在怎麼辦第一個啊立法院啊"},{"start":9815.727,"end":9836.395,"text":"應該是要監督行政院要依法行政立法院結果訂一個法要逼行政院要違法施政這個實在是非常矛盾也造成現在的總算一個僵局如果要逼行政院來執行這樣的一個再修過的才化法那行政院怎麼辦"},{"start":9844.946,"end":9864.767,"text":"所以這個部分我們是沒有辦法再重編第一個沒辦法重編第二個行政院也不能違反公債法的舉債上限所以這兩點就造成目前的總預算的一個僵局所以我們還是要循憲政的救濟程序來救濟"},{"start":9868.977,"end":9884.523,"text":"讓大家聽清楚 這個就是目前所謂總預算的一個僵局因為如果你破壞了公債法 超過那個局勢在上限你就違反了財政穩健原則 傷害了國家的財政而且那種行政院 那個立法院就逼行政院要違法的"},{"start":9892.065,"end":9918.572,"text":"再來像這一次的今年台灣其實不大平靜台南的南部的丹納斯颱風風災特別預算行政院編了600億那今天我們討論的馬太安溪的堰塞湖還有鳳凰颱風的風災前編了300億特別預算防治非洲豬瘟政府也趕快編了緊急預算來應付"},{"start":9921.263,"end":9934.251,"text":"那未來的TO議場恐怕會變成常態像這樣子的話我們可以發現其實都需要中央出手來協助地方解決尤其是在財政方面"},{"start":9935.327,"end":9949.321,"text":"未來如果依照新的修正的財務法來實施啊那中央的現在財政被逼緊了被惹到破舍了那以後是不是可能啊如果來應付這樣緊急狀況會不會造成這個你行政院的財政編隊上你沒有辦法來應付"},{"start":9955.111,"end":9978.058,"text":"是 因為像那個馬太安 燕塞湖的部分我們事先資源就要27億然後非洲豬瘟資源也要30幾億然後我們又要編列4年1000億的一個治水的一個預算然後包括相關勞健保的一個撥補這對我們都造成很大的一個困難所以將來的預算籌備是沒辦法是非常困難的"},{"start":9981.436,"end":9981.976,"text":"林俊憲委員我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":10031.726,"end":10031.747,"text":"嗯"},{"start":10612.128,"end":10615.871,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 現在請陳清輝委員質詢謝謝主席 想請交通部次長好 請陳次長好 次長 您一邊走 我一邊說"},{"start":10635.074,"end":10650.9,"text":"這個是以往我們花蓮你可以看到它每年的遊客非常多吸引了國內外尤其是外國人非常喜歡到太魯閣的這個步道但在0403的地震後我們發現這個步道的重建非常的漫長而且可能是長達數年的"},{"start":10654.063,"end":10675.945,"text":"這個觀光人數也驟降到6.7萬人113年甚至連郵輪現在都不開到花蓮去了接著又發生了潰堤這樣子的事件所以我想先請教次長您對2025年也就是今年的最新的數據有沒有什麼掌握我們想知道跟113年比較是如何"},{"start":10679.676,"end":10693.225,"text":"因為現在已經11月了所以你可能對至少對上半年的數據有一些掌握沒有關係國際旅客你有嗎我跟委員報告下的國際旅客應該是來台的旅客人數在"},{"start":10708.993,"end":10716.381,"text":"今天找到目前為止大概有727萬人我講的是花蓮我們看一下這個圖看圖"},{"start":10723.795,"end":10739.154,"text":"我們了解受到這個地震或者是最近的颱風的影響確實是它又起來又下來產生很大的一個變化就一度在地震後有一點復甦但是因為我們這個煙澀湖的事件然後又下來了"},{"start":10740.535,"end":10760.081,"text":"我們在這邊當然也要為當地的災民居民請命他不一定是住災區但是他是從事旅宿業或者是觀光業更何況賴總統前一陣子說要做觀光國家隊我們現在就看到交通部有提出了一個旅宿1加1的方案這個你應該都很熟悉"},{"start":10760.661,"end":10781.45,"text":"就是我們去住兩個晚上的套裝行程可以4999民宿3800等等但這個有兩個缺點第一個是你們合作的這個沒有很有彈性就是在一個範圍之內然後限定的日期也很少比如說禮拜天到禮拜五這樣子那我們是在這邊具體想建議您"},{"start":10782.61,"end":10807.655,"text":"比如說以前你們曾經用過現金券甚至以前一個晚上可以一個人就補助一千塊的國旅所以他一個房間Maybe可以用到兩個人就抵兩個人是這樣子然後也開放一下時間因為他現在連週末他也非常的困難也非常的困難所以你是不是可以要用最簡便的方式來幫助花蓮的觀光業可不可以"},{"start":10810.376,"end":10835.793,"text":"是 我跟委員報告原則上對於花蓮觀光業的一個振興是交通部當然觀光署也是他們一直放在心上的所以剛才委員提到在目前為止這些方案大概都是跟花蓮觀光圈的業者大家共同討論出來的所以在這個年底之前大概會有剛才特別提到的這個什麼1加1的方案或者是這個什麼出產的"},{"start":10839.675,"end":10856.793,"text":"什麼花東的出產的一個幸福等等的這個方案在裡面的同時我們那裡頭有管理處他們也會辦理相關的一個活動來振興來吸引大家去至於委員剛才特別提到的是不是可以像往常有旅宿業的相關的補助"},{"start":10858.154,"end":10884.384,"text":"這一部分我的了解是觀光署大概在明年它會有相關的在預算裡頭會去推動所謂觀光雙輪驅動的方案市長我可以一個月跟您要研擬的報告因為我們希望您的補助方案可以更有彈性我想這個方案我們請觀光署它正在研擬中如果出來了以後我們再送給委員參與"},{"start":10885.464,"end":10887.867,"text":"好 謝謝 下一個我們要請衛福部次長好 請呂次長次長在哪時間暫停一下呂次長"},{"start":10898.564,"end":10925.357,"text":"好 次長你一邊走我一邊說因為剛剛我有看到李燕秀委員她也質詢關於災區現在衛生條件比較差所以她會擔心一些病媒紋的傳染等等的今年我們有一些德政比如說我們開放產值超人啊新冠的流感的注射還有當地的災民甚至不用帶健保卡以及健保署呢他讓這個受災當月內六個月免繳健保費等等等等但"},{"start":10926.698,"end":10943.62,"text":"後來我們去看這個重建計畫很多都已經延伸到明年年底就表示一些房屋建築物的受損它可能不只是一年兩年的問題最慢可能兩年內才會重建完畢所以我們在明年15年一整年"},{"start":10944.241,"end":10972.54,"text":"还是有很多人他在比较艰困的环境下生活或者是要跟亲戚朋友们比较群聚密集的住在一起那我们在这边想一个月请你具体的研拟看看是不是可以把像这样子流感的疫苗延续下去六岁以上然后或者是成人住在灾区的那或者是年老的灾民会比较需要的肺炎炼酬菌啊以及这个小baby刚出生的轮状疫苗等等的"},{"start":10973.42,"end":10998.88,"text":"是不是你有沒有辦法在一個月內研擬完成讓他們免於這些災區流行病學的威脅OK 非常感謝委員對於我們災民的關心我想這個部分我們可以帶回來研究我想這個也確實對於災民我想這個應該有些群聚的問題我想這個是非常好的一個提醒這個我們帶回去好 謝謝我希望今年做得好的東西明年可以繼續做因為他們還需要 謝謝OK 非常感謝委員謝謝主席 謝謝委員"},{"start":11001.022,"end":11006.229,"text":"好 謝謝陳經惠委員接下來請楊瓊英委員自選謝謝主席 楊瓊發言邀請主席長好 請陳主席長"},{"start":11027.301,"end":11043.809,"text":"委員好 主席長好主席長我們來討論今天行政院通過的花蓮馬太安溪的掩塞湖災後重建特別條例那麼我們的稅出是編出了270億當然全數是以舉債的方式來因應並且預留了30億待未來滾動式的檢討 是不是"},{"start":11054.015,"end":11070.849,"text":"是數字正確那針對於整個災後的重建那當然本席支持加速必須要趕快盡快恢復民生同時在基礎建設方面要能夠好好趕快做讓這個地方能夠恢復正常的一個運作"},{"start":11072.29,"end":11092.866,"text":"但是在我們知道現在可以說是全額舉債的財政壓力那我們預留了30億30億你有沒有特別指出那麼必須要做明確的指標以及你的審查機制來作為滾動式檢討的一個基本"},{"start":11093.306,"end":11112.033,"text":"如果沒有這些就等於是變成了第二語北京來 請做說明這目前沒有用到當然沒有用到 是預留嘛將來如果要用還要再透過編列特別預算的一個程序追加特別預算的程序來做然後還要送到貴院來審議"},{"start":11113.954,"end":11133.964,"text":"那这个就是奔琪刚才所说的你没有办法正义使用对你如果没有一个基础的概念跟基础面那会弱化你整个主计总数的一个审核功能是所以这个部分他如果30亿有另外的需求他必须再提出需求"},{"start":11134.624,"end":11161.116,"text":"预算要办理追加追加预算审议通过之后裁列预算再送到贵会来审议而不是直接用二倍金的形态来支用不是就是主席长您所说的这绝对不能是以二倍金的这个概念因此在整个量化成果的指标跟你执行的门槛还有追加必要性的一个标准"},{"start":11161.596,"end":11180.604,"text":"我想你們都有一定的步驟跟它的一個標準 是不是所以我們要希望借來的每一分錢都必須要用在災區上面真正的協助災民接下來本席要請工程會工程會"},{"start":11192.803,"end":11214.709,"text":"委員好主委你好委長到目前為止丹納斯颱風要超過了四個月了要超過四個月但是我們原因到底是什麼因為工整位你這樣延宕的原因是指向產權複雜沒有人居住或者是屋主他不願意修繕"},{"start":11217.021,"end":11231.792,"text":"而且你在這要求地方要逐戶調查他的意願簽署不同意修繕的文件但是我們知道在整個災後的這個重建它會攸關了公共的一個安全"},{"start":11232.552,"end":11256.322,"text":"如果我們只是僅止於在詢問的意願跟勸差的這個基礎那等於是把目前一直延宕到現在快四個月這樣子的一個災後治理的一個責任可以說是全數的下放所以在這樣的情況之下重建的進度當然是有制度性的一個停滯"},{"start":11257.262,"end":11264.125,"text":"那它的風險呢可能會暴露到下一次的災害當中因為現在暖化的這個氣候讓我們不可預測到底會怎麼樣所以針對這樣子的樣態請教主委你們除了詢問意願之外那你要怎麼樣去建構"},{"start":11279.392,"end":11298.958,"text":"強制處理的一個程序如果有危害到公共安全的這個部分還有第二個你的跨機關的一個協助模式第三個以及你的時程的一個標準那麼以避免在我們整個災禍重建呢處於真空狀態 請說明"},{"start":11300.663,"end":11328.977,"text":"報告委員 這次前進指揮所調集了全國大概300家的優良的這個關於承攬公共工程的廠商下去協助但是並不是無價的幫忙這個受損的這個房屋是要簽合約然後一定價格是來協助修繕所以剛剛本席說了你現在到現在已經超過了4個月那你的進度呢我們都已經做完了 全部都做完了"},{"start":11330.211,"end":11346.796,"text":"而且各區公所去詢問這些受診房屋要繼續這個協助你的就協助那你如果不協助了就不協助就是不需要修繕了不需要修繕其中很多樣態當然很多樣態就是本席說的如果有影響到公共安全的部分那你們怎麼處理呢這裡台南市政府有"},{"start":11353.098,"end":11381.671,"text":"这个依据建筑法可以处理依据台南市政府的自治条例你去测查好不好你去测查还有影响到公共那个是市政府那是市政府的业务所以要不然就停滞在那里没有停滞那这怎么办如果它有违公共安全或公共卫生本来就有一定的程序要求它改善不改善就拆除这一点也就是本席今天跟你讨论的有影响到公共安全的部分我们必须要去把它处置之这个限制法规有"},{"start":11382.271,"end":11405.834,"text":"对啊 法规有你要去执行之啊那是台南市政府要执行对啊 你的督导要去执行之啊这个台南市政府要去执行台南市政府要执行如果有这样的现象我们一定要督导去把它安全的一个不让它建筑法的主管机关是内政部影响到整个公共安这个公共秩序的一个安全嘛好 谢谢"},{"start":11408.941,"end":11415.186,"text":"好 謝謝楊淳英委員主委請回 接下來請張宏祿委員質詢我請內政部跟圓明會好 請內政部劉部長跟圓明會 曾主委"},{"start":11450.171,"end":11473.645,"text":"委員好部長跟主委我想請問一下我們這一次這個風災這一次我們有沒有要規劃中繼宅你是說馬太安溪的部分有預估是150戶那他們整個村大概有幾戶"},{"start":11475.785,"end":11490.748,"text":"整個村有幾戶我的意思是要直接說我們現在是整個村然後選一個地方蓋一個中繼宅還是說把原來住在這邊把它分散到好幾個中繼宅"},{"start":11491.289,"end":11495.351,"text":"沒有 我想跟委員報告一下就是我們針對原來撤離的1800多戶然後把重災區的部分先一戶一戶去拜訪那出來目前我們就是以11跟41戶的部分在台塘的地區先幫他們設中繼宅"},{"start":11510.159,"end":11524.736,"text":"因為其他的住戶的部分我們會先評估他回去居住有沒有安全上的問題也就是有沒有受到地震的影響這些所以大部分的住戶尤其是在比較街區的地方比較安全就是回去自己的家裡住因為大部分光復的災民都希望不要離開光復鄉"},{"start":11529.146,"end":11556.289,"text":"對 我會特別問就是說像之前的小林村他們就有很多的聲音就是說把他們整個村拆成三個我們有一個居住權跟生命權跟財產權其實是要用不同的角度去檢視有一個房子住他沒有跟他的文化什麼也都沒有了這個我覺得以前的"},{"start":11558.111,"end":11575.668,"text":"歷史的這個借鏡我們可能要看所以我才會特別問這個問題我們這個中繼宅是就是暫住以後如果說這個整個復原完之後他們還是可以回去原來的地方我們現在的規劃是不是這樣"},{"start":11577.33,"end":11601.856,"text":"是 我們為什麼叫中繼宅的主要原因就是說第一個大部分的災民都是希望是離災不離鄉所以我們是選擇也是在光復的台塘的部分在第一批的中繼宅把它設置出來讓他們可以進駐也就是說房舍如果不安全的話一定要離開原來的房舍那房舍如果安全的話盡量回來自己的房舍那這一點大家的共識性都很強"},{"start":11603.036,"end":11630.478,"text":"只不過我們現在的速度非常快的狀況之下我們也趕快中繼屋如果蓋好的話有些比較弱勢的族群可不可以先進去進駐還有就是說有些原住民部落的朋友他們很希望說原住民他是一個團體還經過他們的原住民的代表互相溝通互相溝通未來的中繼宅要設置成什麼樣子的部分的話我們還是有時間可能他們有共識之後會再繼續往下來推動"},{"start":11632.683,"end":11654.549,"text":"這個部分 主委 你有沒有參與到你們的看法是如何目前有關中紀務的部分跟委員報告我們都有跟部落就是一戶一戶來做一個面談目前就是說也有意見都還沒有完全一致 還沒有共識因為有的人他也希望說租屋補住他就願意去住了"},{"start":11655.549,"end":11676.594,"text":"那麼也有的就是說希望能夠有一個中基屋而且這個中基屋希望族人能夠一起住在一起那我們都尊重現在我們還在跟部落在這個跟他們在座談還在跟他們在做說明那我相信很快有一個共識之後我想因為整個的戶數我們估了也不會超過150戶"},{"start":11678.354,"end":11688.132,"text":"全部啦我相信這個中繼屋的這個設計應該都容納得下所以不到十分之一的人會需要這個中繼屋嗎對"},{"start":11690.984,"end":11708.171,"text":"因為有的他的房子並沒有受損他還是可以回去住真的嚴重的大概就是我講的是150戶以內不會超過150戶目前我們預判是這樣子因為在跟部落做座談的時候我們都有掌握到"},{"start":11709.711,"end":11728.696,"text":"當然你說現在每個人的想法都會不一樣我要特別的今天請問你們兩位就是說原住民他們有他們比較特殊的文化傳統我們的中繼屋如果他可能也住也不是住"},{"start":11731.417,"end":11754.703,"text":"幾個月可能也會住一段時間那在這邊的話這個的設計這個什麼其實你園民會也應該要有多一些意見然後符合我們原住民族我們這些大家的需求我覺得這個才是重點不是給他一個房子住啦他們的生存權我覺得也要受到重視可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":11762.212,"end":11780.819,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請王育敏委員質詢謝謝主席我們先請工程會的主委請工程會陳主委委員早"},{"start":11791.634,"end":11816.254,"text":"主委好主委你還記不記得在8月26號在院會質詢的時候我有跟你提出來在嘉義縣役足鄉他有一個中正堂他在丹納斯風災的時候其實回損嚴重已經不堪使用他必須重建那時候我還問你說那我們這一次有了特別條例有特別預算是不是可以有這樣重建的經費你還說可以"},{"start":11818.776,"end":11844.052,"text":"結果去會刊的時候工程會的代表就改口了他說要其他部會來負責主委你知道這件事嗎我剛有了解一下就是說一族相公所第一個它是不是因為丹納斯颱風所引起的災損第二個它是屬於等於是公共設施通常我們"},{"start":11847.034,"end":11871.27,"text":"風災會單獨有一個專案那這個專案如果是符合的話會專案來做協助來處理是這個方向那特別條例裡面的特別預算那就要看整個特別預算原來在內政部的部分是不是有針對這樣的公共設施來進行協助所以你現在要推給內政部那個內政部部長 來 劉部長"},{"start":11873.391,"end":11892.828,"text":"你們現在我看到就是推來推去就是明明在院會答應的是竹偉寧你本人答應的你現在說是內政部內政部又說不是他這個錢不會是工程會出就是說因為那整個是你內政部的整個不是你主持嗎相公所的相公所他有上他的職屬"},{"start":11893.989,"end":11921.621,"text":"這個主委你整個特別預算有600億最後立法院還加碼給你你還有二倍金還有30億結果一個嘉義縣這麼財政困窘的地方一個異族鄉老人人口第一名的地方他那麼破落的一個中正堂在這次重建裡面要經費要提計劃結果工程會推給內政部內政部也說不是他那他真的是求助無門"},{"start":11922.757,"end":11949.393,"text":"工程會是中整整個特別預算是主管機關那這個主管機關底下有內政部有經濟部有農業部所以你認為這件事要找內政部對不對來 部長 劉部長是你要負責嗎報告王委員委員關心多次啦那我們現在就是想辦法要來解決這個問題那剛剛那個陳主委講的沒有錯沒有在特別條例裡面我們想要從特別統籌分配款裡面來處理看看"},{"start":11951.066,"end":11954.048,"text":"所以你會積極來研議嗎因為它真的是很弱勢的一個鄉鎮也就是說如果說它是報災修那在特同的話可能不在特別預算的範圍內那你說你可以另外有計畫可以協助它嗎就是我剛跟您報告了就是用災修的方式來處理"},{"start":11967.856,"end":11983.189,"text":"因為他真的是很困窘我知道 單一線財政很困難而且異族鄉又是老年人我了解所以我剛講說我們來解決問題那就用特等的方式但是因為災修到底經費多少你大概什麼時候可以讓本席知道你們提出解決的方案大概多久"},{"start":11984.648,"end":12007.416,"text":"包委員是這樣通常各鄉鎮公所如果像這種40年以上房子會老舊不堪它本來就一定程序可以請縣政府請內政部來申請補助是重建我們特別條例處理的是災損不會包括整個重建如果說有哪裡需要修繕等等如果看起來是一個老舊的鄉公所"},{"start":12010.997,"end":12028.223,"text":"對 然後風災又再次受損對 所以如果要重重的我是跟委員報告如果重建的話要循這個內政的程序由內政部在本預算裡面來協助重建好 那你們兩位可不可以答覆我大概一個月之內可不可以提出一個如何解決的方案"},{"start":12029.076,"end":12035.76,"text":"我認為如果是重建的話就要循正常程序由嘉義縣政府或鄉公所提報內政部來看來年度的預算可以那個部長"},{"start":12044.685,"end":12066.915,"text":"這件事情你大概多久可以給一個解決的方案報告委員就是剛剛那個主委所提到的不管是一族鄉公所或者是嘉義縣政府我們建議是用災修除非說建物完全是不安全如果災修的話我們會盡快用特等的方式來處理因為到目前為止我們還沒有看到他們提報上來因為會刊多次我也了解其中的進度"},{"start":12068.857,"end":12074.386,"text":"所以現在聽起來是工程會推給內政部說重建就是你們你們說你們只願意災修不願意重建我想是這樣子重建確實比較曠日廢時"},{"start":12081.414,"end":12098.455,"text":"那災修就是說但他真的很老舊了對 但是災修如果是無虞那個在建物安全無虞的狀況之下災修會比較快但你們上次去會館你們也覺得應該是要重建我現在署長告訴我們的是可以走災修災修他耐得住但是如果要重建會比較晚"},{"start":12099.096,"end":12119.833,"text":"重建會比較晚我想您大概了解整個的工程本來就是進度就是這樣子我希望這件事我們不要忽略最弱勢的地方下一頁我要問一個就是現在內政部的補助標準你們現在是取消活動中心取消消防隊的興建取消興建的避難建築這些你們通通都要取消嗎都不補助嗎因為加一線"},{"start":12120.714,"end":12142.241,"text":"他們梅山鄉有一個太平他們要建一個新的這個消防的封鎖然後內政部的回應說我們現在通通一律都不補助了有這回事嗎那你們補助社團最新的你們新增加的預算要補助民間的這一些宗教組織等等你們增加了三億那這麼關鍵的消防設施你們說沒有錢"},{"start":12143.061,"end":12157.133,"text":"有這回事嗎我想不是這樣子第一個 前瞻預算已經結束了那前瞻預算如果結束的話有些補助當然就不見了那個這個是大家都了解的那消防的部分你們就都不補助了嗎一律所有的分所你們都沒有錢"},{"start":12158.214,"end":12180.314,"text":"各縣市一個都不會增第一個地方縣市政府他們提報上來我們是按照中央跟地方的這個補助的方案來處理沒有所謂的取消不取消的問題但是所以沒有全面取消嗎我要知道是沒有全面取消嗎對不對要看狀況因為那個委員所提的部分他是一個什麼建設活動中心這些我們不曉得真正的項目在哪裡所以我們可能要看狀況而定"},{"start":12181.135,"end":12201.472,"text":"我只是要確認部長你的原則並沒有取消所有的補助報告委員在我們內政部裡面不管是有計劃或者是沒有計劃或是任何其他的補助辦法我們的辦法到目前為止沒有更改過任何一個字所以可以提上來你們再評估如果立法院的前瞻預算取消我們當然就沒有啦這個我想委員非常的清楚"},{"start":12201.772,"end":12220.972,"text":"对啊 例行性的这些消防的分队的建制一样可以提计划不止这些硬体的建设包括委员所提到人民团体的部分也是一样我们所谓人民团体的补助都是按照原来惯例上面的补助办法从来没有改变过任何事情所以外面的传言我是觉得应该请委员帮忙处理是不是还是可以提计划"},{"start":12222.861,"end":12248.049,"text":"要看您是哪一項計畫所以還是可以提倡我剛剛就跟你說消防隊分數如果有預算的來源的話我們當然會按照那個標準的作業程序來處理好 我希望這個該補助的地方重要的基礎建設政府不能省但是你們不要把一些省下來的錢去補助不需要錦上添花的地方這個是一個很重要的原則弱勢優先永遠是最重要的原則好不好 謝謝好 謝謝王一鳴委員"},{"start":12251.863,"end":12279.285,"text":"接下來請林黛嬅委員林黛嬅委員林黛嬅委員不在好 我們接下來請高金素梅委員發言那我們12點開飯大家在12點就可以用餐我們就不休息了直接就開飯 就吃飯了OK 請高金 謝謝"},{"start":12284.935,"end":12288.002,"text":"謝謝趙偉我們有請公共工程委員會陳金德主委請陳主委"},{"start":12298.048,"end":12319.648,"text":"委員好主委你好我們曾經是立法院的同事希望我們今天的對談能夠幫我們花蓮的尤其是萬榮鄉的族人能夠解決他們的困境好嗎 謝謝那個連續兩次驗射壺重大災害主委您也是我們重建特別條例的主管機關"},{"start":12320.909,"end":12334.946,"text":"你是不是亲自有去过被洪水灌入的名利村河段来听取我们主任的意见我去过三次其中最长就这个一站式服务站在那边待了八天"},{"start":12336.263,"end":12352.315,"text":"好 那你看到了什麼問題就是…簡短的說好嗎 因為我們今天時間有限你覺得最重要的問題是什麼就是兩個字 就很嚴重了好 很嚴重 我剛剛就已經說了工程會是災害復建的主管機關"},{"start":12353.516,"end":12368.648,"text":"我要請問您最近這四年我們政府在公務預算投入所謂的災後重建的核定經費各是多少我列了大概四年您看一下因為我時間有限2021年79億2022年77億2023年120億2024年259億這個數字代表什麼主委"},{"start":12380.56,"end":12403.956,"text":"因為這幾年剛好…這是公務預算喔這幾年剛好都不在政府部門您看到這個數據以你的專業來說你看到了什麼是不是連年災害特別的多了是逐漸增加好 謝謝然後我們看到這些災後重建的預算是每一年工程會針對大大小小的災害所核定的預算"},{"start":12404.756,"end":12421.157,"text":"那麼我們可以知道一般災害復建它主要是針對個別災害是由中央補助地方政府來執行對吧沒錯就是針對公共設施對那我們今天要審查的馬太安特別條例的預算"},{"start":12422.859,"end":12451.412,"text":"是因為馬太安溪的災害的規模非常的龐大而且它是複合性的災害類型所以在特別條例裡面我們讓公共工程委員會作為這個條例的主管機關重點是要來整合整個災區的訴求還有制定標準然後讓我們各個部會它在執行預算的時候能夠有所依據對不對 主委"},{"start":12452.413,"end":12470.595,"text":"對好 那麼我現在要提到我的重點了當九月份光復爆發災情的時候當時針對萬榮鄉名利村的堤防破口你們在報告裡面提到你們叫做開口堤"},{"start":12471.636,"end":12491.907,"text":"然而在7月份的時候我們的村長我們的鄉長在災防匯報的時候都提醒了水利署你們必須要去處理這件事情然而指揮官暨政委他也指示水利署你們要趕快的去處理"},{"start":12493.147,"end":12507.76,"text":"結果呢七月份到九月份兩個月過去了而我的名利村的村民得到的是什麼水淹家園水利署你們一時的疏忽造成了我們水利署長的道歉"},{"start":12508.942,"end":12537.527,"text":"我不仅仅要提这个我更要提的是我们的政府对原乡的河川地理的治理标准是不一样的也非常的不公平我们在都会区当我们进入到河川的区域工程上的名称是用所谓的水门还有阅题道路可是在偏乡在我们原乡你们设计用临时性的太空包去堵住开口题"},{"start":12539.279,"end":12555.835,"text":"標準兩套而生命兩等這對我們的族人來說是情何以堪的事情啊馬太安的艷澀湖還在我相信在場的專業的人你們都清楚知道河床的水位因為"},{"start":12557.196,"end":12574.871,"text":"雨的大小它會升高多少這些是必須要經過專業的計算還有持續的追蹤然而潛在的災害風險也不斷的提醒在場的公部門的行政單位尤其是水利署"},{"start":12576.192,"end":12595.59,"text":"而你們該有所作為而不作為這造成了我名利村的村民財產的嚴重的損失然而國家賠償法第三條明定請大家聽一下公共設施管理有欠缺人民財產受損國家應該要負賠償的責任"},{"start":12601.916,"end":12619.95,"text":"萬榮鄉的鄉長 名利村的村長多次的告訴我們的政府然後中央指揮官也已經交辦你們要去處理了結果我們的執行單位草率的處置這就是明顯的管理欠缺"},{"start":12620.871,"end":12637.398,"text":"但是與其讓我們的災民要跟我們的政府打非常冗長的國賠我認為不如現在就由我們的政府主動來承擔讓我們一起在本條例有具體的補救方法可以嗎 主委"},{"start":12638.621,"end":12642.386,"text":"報告委 因為萬雄鄉民意村的災損是延續馬太安溪相關的災損我了解啊 所以7月份的時候我們的鄉長 我們的村長就跟了紀政委"},{"start":12653.362,"end":12679.888,"text":"就說了必須要趕快去堵住那個缺口七月份談沒有做一直到九月份才去弄太空包以致造成了這麼大的嚴重所以他的相關衛助復原是比照原來光復鄉跟鳳林的少數幾個村的標準一樣進行衛助也就是如果有煙的主委你不要再跟我這邊在談這個我現在要跟你談的是更嚴重"},{"start":12683.547,"end":12712.509,"text":"召委麻煩再給我一點時間我必須要闡述一下我們災民的心聲還有釐清尤其我們今天下午就要審預算了好所以呢主委我的重點是在說與其讓我們的族人去打一個冗長的國賠倒不如現在已經有這個特別條例了我們能不能夠在這個特別條例裡面好好的聽好好的撫慰我們的災民的心情可以嗎"},{"start":12713.209,"end":12736.452,"text":"報告委員 如果是國賠的話公務人要有疏失的責任我沒有跟你講國賠主委我說我們與其打國賠太冗長現在有特別條例我們好好的來談這件事情好不好這部分我請水利署還有經濟部次長來跟你說明好 我要跟你講 不必他們說明您是主管機關我要跟你談的是第一件事情"},{"start":12737.748,"end":12762.115,"text":"也是我到現場去我們的族人還有災民我們的災民既是農民也是災民他跟我反映的有關原住民房舍的賠償應該要包含臨時性的建物所以我在這裡要求你們必須要從寬認定必須要加速辦理而從寬認定有幾個建議主委聽一下有三個第一個"},{"start":12763.095,"end":12785.712,"text":"有基礎資料的時候我們以戶籍為認定的依據然後第二個如果資料不足的我們就用航照圖來搭配相公所所謂的士林證明來做佐證第三個現地如果可以看到地基樑柱這些殘跡的我們就視為實際居住的證明可以嗎"},{"start":12786.152,"end":12802.713,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是針對居住的戶長進行相關的衛助那放得很寬只要實際居住有災損的證明就可以實際居住跟災損證明完全由村長可以認定好所以以上我講的這個方塊認定你都同意"},{"start":12803.334,"end":12827.434,"text":"就是我们有两个要件实际居住还有你刚刚有没有听我讲的主委有基础资料者以户籍认定依据如果资料不足的话用航照图搭配相公所士林证明佐证如果现地可以看得到地基两处的他也可以这个我们当然可以当作他有居住的事实干流户籍但是我们是"},{"start":12827.874,"end":12857.018,"text":"不要浪費我那麼多的時間主委現在我跟你講的都是非常具體你說OK就OK了其實我們兩個談論是一樣的問題好嗎另外我們來談一下學校的部分災區的學校我們三讀通過的特別條例是包含了學校幼兒園的重建但是我們看到行政院這次在分配特別預算給各個部會去執行預算的時候沒有編給教育部教育部你可以上台來一下"},{"start":12857.659,"end":12873.061,"text":"然後所以讓我們的教育部我們學校他只能夠用自己的公務預算去支應主委你認為合理嗎這個是教育部主動表示他本預算可以處理像那個關乎工商等這些學校問題所以主動要求"},{"start":12874.362,"end":12897.591,"text":"不纳入这个特别预算但是我们的三读通过的特别条例有包含学校跟幼儿园的重建对 我们特别预算是根据特别条例来编的那教育部它本身表示不需要所以它要用它的公务预算去它用它的公务预算主委你知道吗今天没有教育部来但是我要特别的强调的是公务预算它会影响到其他的"},{"start":12898.371,"end":12912.782,"text":"而我們說的特別條例它是指定災害的所以教育部這麼做是錯誤的我會再回到教育部要求他們並且我要要求主委這件事情您必須要思考繼續我要來談到的是公部門的橫向聯繫的重要性來 原民會的主委你可以上來有關原住民經濟產業還有部落農特產品的重建"},{"start":12923.149,"end":12940.445,"text":"原民會主責的是推廣但是它並不包含產業重建需要的設施設備然而我們經濟部的產發署經濟部也可以上來一下你們有關重建產業的設施設備你們是有補助的所以主委"},{"start":12941.266,"end":12965.704,"text":"本條例不受預算法第62條的規定也就是說各機關還有計畫或業務的科目你們是可以互相留用的所以主委還有我們的陳主委園民會跟經濟部應該成立跨部會推動工作小組來協助我們原住民的產業還有部落產業提供有效的診斷輔導還有修復設施的設備兩位主委同意嗎可以"},{"start":12972.301,"end":12987.526,"text":"可以有會協調 相關部會謝謝 以上我提到的這些還有接下來不好意思真的再給我一點時間因為我是災區的立法委員我也是原住民的立委因為有太多重要的事情需要在這邊理清楚"},{"start":12988.246,"end":13014.06,"text":"好 以上我提的這幾個我請各全責機關用一個書面的完整的回覆給我另外我還有幾個要求第一個 我希望我們的災後重建主管單位你們可以設置重建單一的服務窗口然後來整合所有部會的資源同時要優先進行我們災民的心理的諮商還有中長期的復原生計計畫可以嗎 第一個"},{"start":13016.324,"end":13036.637,"text":"主委這方面都有編列相關預算好 第二個我第一窗口就在東部行政院的東部服務中心好 可以第二個我只要是在我原住民地區請你們遵守原住民基本法涉及原住民21條諮商同意事項還有其他公務員事項要你們實質來尊重部落會議的決議跟在地的知識可以嗎"},{"start":13038.26,"end":13063.686,"text":"原住民基本法會遵守就相關開發行為當然會要諮商好 謝謝來 第三個我希望資訊能夠透明化請提供特別預算還有我們公務預算的相關的分工還有規劃的期程以及進度並且要公告上網重點的事項每日要更新方便國會還有人民的監督這樣也可以吧"},{"start":13063.846,"end":13078.155,"text":"我們會提供特別條例跟相關仔細話最後我要講的是我的心聲花蓮從去年0403的地震到最近兩次的晏色湖的事件在這裡我要痛心的說民進黨政府"},{"start":13079.349,"end":13101.978,"text":"你們對於地震之後的地形變化九月颱風季節後艷澀湖的危機你們根本就沒有心要預防你們只知道大罷免然後一直沉溺於政治鬥爭政府這種對花蓮人民特別是我的原住民的族人生命財產的無視你們必須要負起全部的責任"},{"start":13102.998,"end":13129.355,"text":"也希望我們的政府尤其是民進黨的政府能夠在這一次的危機覺醒回到國事好好做事一起為這塊土地的人民好好做事我相信以上我提的這些全部都是全民的心聲回復到國政好好做事不要再政治惡鬥了吧謝謝好 謝謝高清素美委員"},{"start":13133.348,"end":13135.711,"text":"接下來我們請袁寬恆委員質詢主席 各位本院委員同仁還有各位列席官員大家好主席有請經濟部常務次長好 請經濟部賴次長"},{"start":13159.235,"end":13180.592,"text":"委員好市長好經濟部這次編列91億有85億是用來辦理馬太岸溪及花蓮溪水系河川系統性的治理但是不知道你們到底會不會傾聽當地民眾的心聲我是希望只要當地民眾有什麼請求或者是建議事項你們務必要放在心上"},{"start":13181.573,"end":13192.687,"text":"像是受到鳳凰颱風影響導致馬太安溪水位暴漲昨天18號有再一次的暴漲那溪水淹沒馬太安溪變道才剛修復的便橋就被沖斷了"},{"start":13194.861,"end":13215.457,"text":"沒有 這個當地村長其實很早以前就提醒了擔心溪水從這個溪邊堤防破口流進部落但是 這個貴單位完全沒有把居民的這些請求放在眼裡都覺得自己的專業判斷沒有錯但是連續遭遇大水不斷湧入部落的慘況"},{"start":13216.658,"end":13240.867,"text":"都歷歷在目你們也沒有辦法為你們的疏失來負責但是事實上就是居民的家園再一次的受到傷害所以這一次特別預算在治理馬灘溪這個溪水花蓮溪水河川系統未來會不會實際的具體的跟當地的村民或者是居民一起討論這些他們的意見會不會"},{"start":13247.216,"end":13263.63,"text":"有關於未來的重建工作水利署就會跟當地的民眾包括民間團體來傾聽他們的聲音那除此之外在這邊跟委員說明自從馬灘淹涉湖溢流然後造成下游光復"},{"start":13265.034,"end":13286.322,"text":"光復鄉很大的這個嚴重的一個災害我們看到極端事件它再來的狀況跟損害是非常的複雜而且是劇烈的水利署在11天內完成了2860公尺原來的堤防的搶修而且下面還輸菌我就是要求麻煩你們一定要"},{"start":13288.283,"end":13316.505,"text":"與當地的我們這些里長 村民 村長跟他們做實際的討論了解當地實際的狀況不要因為憑藉著自己的專業認為說專業判斷才是對的那只有他們最了解當地的實際情況他們都是長期居住在當地的居民我們要勇於認錯要勇於認錯不要推卸責任不然的話這個只會讓災民更加的心寒那這一次的一個重建特別預算我只有一個請求就是要妥數的"},{"start":13317.566,"end":13334.837,"text":"把災民的家園 妥數的重建完成以及災民有任何的需求 請求的部分我們要求各部會都從寬認定並且在未來預防的工作上一定要做好萬全的準備千萬不要再發生事先已經有"},{"start":13335.757,"end":13356.61,"text":"地方的提醒但是我們的這些所屬機關卻一意的孤行造成這樣遺憾的事情再次的發生那再來我想請教署長就是我在 次長我們在總質詢的時候有提過今年七月份的時候幾次的豪大雨造成烏日沙鹿地區的淹水的狀況"},{"start":13357.871,"end":13383.98,"text":"不知道你有沒有注意到但是因為對於烏日地區來講2008年卡梅基颱風風災重創民眾都歷歷在目心中還是非常的害怕我也跟水利局台中市水利局相關單位都討論過透過資料發現所有的抽水站就是沿著大理溪跟烏溪的這些抽水站肅王碑抽水站武漳里抽水站中興抽水站等等"},{"start":13385.22,"end":13406.691,"text":"抽水量都很正常但是根據數據的發現不只是台中地區許多這些抽水站的設置現在有一個很大的問題需要經濟部來協調在未來防洪防範淹水的一個重點檢討就是說我們排水出去的河川淹水地區排水出去的河川它的水位比我們淹水區還高"},{"start":13408.812,"end":13428.782,"text":"這個部分不只是台中也不只是烏日剛剛有提到大都區的山陽大排也出現這樣的情況我們卓院長在總質詢的時候也做出了承諾所以說請經濟部水利署來做一個通盤的檢討針對全國所有的這些河川區域"},{"start":13429.522,"end":13457.55,"text":"排這個地勢較高的地區來做一個全面的檢討可不可以首先這幾個抽水站的部分都是中央來協助地方政府來建置的剛剛委員所提到的更讓我們體現到極端氣候的事件我們必須要系統性的來檢討院長也指示經濟部來責成水利署針對系統性的一個治水的工作做簡單性的一個評估也不只是只有這樣子因為我想我們"},{"start":13458.49,"end":13463.771,"text":"早期的一個規劃跟設計現在都需要做一個更全面的檢討包括"},{"start":13465.372,"end":13493.877,"text":"因為很多新興地區人口稠密的地區像高鐵特區像沙鹿的張子野海線的一些新興的一個社區的開闢那地面下的這些雨水下水道普及率覆蓋率偏低那加上你剛剛提到的極端氣候還有瞬間雨量造成突發性的淹水所以我們時常都看到我們這些人口稠密地區淹水的狀況雨水下水道是一個看不見的工程"},{"start":13494.497,"end":13512.464,"text":"但是我們人民走在路上看不到雨水下水道但是這是一個政府保護人民財產安全重要的建設所以我希望說經濟部啟動全面的通販檢討尤其是要協助我們各縣市地方政府來做一個全面的一個檢討跟計畫的提出好不好"},{"start":13512.904,"end":13529.984,"text":"那過去透過特別預算來協助地方政府我們也期待大院多支持給中央更多的資源可以讓赤水的工作更加的順利以上 謝謝好 謝謝袁焕仁委員接下來請鄭正前委員質詢"},{"start":13540.925,"end":13548.831,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下經濟部賴次長好 請賴次長然後農業部陳部長好 陳部長還有交通部陳次長陳次長"},{"start":13552.04,"end":13578.021,"text":"委員好次長好那個颱風年年都有然後今年特別多那從7月份的丹娜絲9月份的花家莎到11月份的鳳凰就一個接一個坦白說台灣最近其實不是很安定那颱風年年都來可是我們的很多的工程都年年在拖沒有 委員我們的質詢力都很好OK好"},{"start":13579.222,"end":13599.063,"text":"我想說因為針對名利村這個部分因為7月份就反映了然後9月份的時候也交辦可是到11月份的時候還是產生一個淹水的情況這等一下你再一起回應我想特別了解的部分就是說我們現在針對因為今天是針對馬太安溪淹捨湖的災後重建的部分"},{"start":13602.466,"end":13619.027,"text":"那我特別要提到一個因為在11月份鳳凰颱風來的時候蘇澳這邊的時候也淹水所以我們看到在蘇澳溪分紅工程這邊的時候2013年的時候就已經同意規劃那麼到2023年行政院才終於合訂計畫"},{"start":13620.649,"end":13645.02,"text":"那麼合訂之後還是一拖再拖那整個經費暴漲到今年1月份的時候再度提報修正計畫之後然後目前進度如何可不可以請次長一併回應一下首先2023年3月2號行政院合訂的計畫包括2024、2025我們都有編列蘇浩熙分紅的工作跟預算"},{"start":13645.76,"end":13673.237,"text":"那蘇澳分紅現在的進度各項的進度不管是上游的藍沙壩或是管理中心的設計的工作都已經完成而宜蘭縣政府所提報的這個徵收的這個計畫在今年的九月也奉內政部來核定那預計在年底完成的徵收那也所幸在行政院的協助之下針對於物條或是因為我們做的水工模型實驗事實上我們"},{"start":13674.418,"end":13695.287,"text":"為了讓蘇澳分紅可以順利的倒排80%的上游的水量市長時間有限 那個什麼時候可以完成這整個計畫什麼時候可以整個完成這個縣政府現在提的修正計畫我們會行政院院長也去現場看過大概2018年左右2018年"},{"start":13696.568,"end":13707.155,"text":"之後再給本席一個更詳細的一個時間的一個控管的一個部分因為時間有限我想這部分的時候再請次長這邊的時候幫我們費心針對這部分特別給我們本辦公室一個相關的計畫來接下來我想請問一下農業部陳部長"},{"start":13715.28,"end":13731.725,"text":"因為那個雖然我們今天講的是那個馬太安溪的部分可是我對那個化家沙整個颱風風災之後整個一個災損之後的一個補助情況到現在情況到底是怎麼樣子然後農損的補助大概什麼時候可以完成這個部分可不可以請部長做個回應"},{"start":13732.986,"end":13760.884,"text":"我跟委員報告就是整個包括從淡納斯開始的花架在颱風那基本上我們在第一時間能夠主動公告我們就會主動公告那如果說它有持發性的災損的這些品項我們就會跟地方政府密切的配合當適當的時間點就會陸陸續續的去做這個公告然後公告完了以後是由地方政府去現刊公所現刊以後的核報這個程序本身大家都理解我們三年之內一定撥款"},{"start":13761.644,"end":13790.99,"text":"OK 好 那針對這個部分本席還特別想去了解一下整個復耕的情況尤其是花蓮這邊整個後續的復耕的狀態的時候我們到底要怎麼做然後它還適合做農耕使用還是到時候要變成一個非農業使用可不可以請部長這邊做個回應我簡單的說明就是現在目前光復耕鳳梨裡面大概有774公頃是被土砂淹沒大概分為兩類一類是50公分以下的直接就可以放耕去處理"},{"start":13791.91,"end":13813.298,"text":"另外一個就是比較超過50公分的我們就會看看說是不是需要土地重劃或是用其他的方式來處理這個部分我們已經開了5場的座談會也跟300多位的這些鄉民一起討論未來的整個規劃一定會這個區域因為這件災情很嚴重然後我在想說有可能變成非農用嗎"},{"start":13814.485,"end":13827.386,"text":"都有可能就是說有一部分可能會變造林或者是變成堤防的緩衝帶那這個部分我想我們都會持續的跟鄉民做溝通達到共識還有我們的規劃以後才會比較完整的確定"},{"start":13828.537,"end":13849.37,"text":"OK 針對這部分的時候我們希望農業部能夠盡速對於農民這部分的災損能夠儘快給予一些補償謝謝部長我接下來想請教一下交通部陳次長因為這一次當中的時候交通部這邊也編列了1.4億元其中1.3億再做一個災後的一個復原的部分"},{"start":13849.81,"end":13876.147,"text":"那其中有三千萬在做那個邊坡的一個搶修跟加固那我們看到了就是整個因為集團氣候來襲台鐵它要韌性補強的部分我覺得還蠻多的因為從一百零四年到一百一十三年就是鐵路行車安全改善計畫的時候整個累積到了四十一億那目前整個審計部八月份它也提出了部分就說整個台鐵的一個預警系統異常的一個頻繁土石流雨"},{"start":13877.449,"end":13886.908,"text":"強風預警功能都不佳針對這個部分的時候我想交通部有沒有一些更具體的做法來針對於台鐵的部分給予一些品質的一個提升"},{"start":13889.639,"end":13909.81,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為台鐵有關這個沿線受到極端氣候的影響等等尤其邊坡的其實台鐵已經做了幾項的一個系統在這上頭比如說像邊坡的落石告警或者是義務入侵的一個告警然後甚至為了因應氣候他會跟"},{"start":13910.951,"end":13924.876,"text":"氣象署有些QP Plus的一個計畫來市長 這個部分大概計畫裡大概我們都理解不過因為台鐵周邊的一個偶發事件變成常態性的一個出現從5月份到11月份我們這邊大概統計了一些數字"},{"start":13928.337,"end":13941.576,"text":"其中第三個部分的時候9月24號的部分出現了石頭擋在志強號上面志強號撞上去之後脫軌媒體沒有特別關注是因為畫家莎那時候的颱風對於雲嘉地區的一個"},{"start":13945.161,"end":13973.791,"text":"災害太嚴重了那針對這個部分的時候我想說整個台鐵的部分必須要好好的去做一個品質上面的一個提升跟管理那我這邊的時候特別關注一個狀態就是台鐵其實今年其實跟災防中心還有氣象署都簽了合作備忘錄目前進度如何這個部分能不能夠有效來改善我們這麼多的偶發事件然後變成常態發生的一個情況"},{"start":13976.78,"end":13985.734,"text":"跟委員報告下有關備忘錄的部分很像已經簽署了那至於說它如何運作目前正還在討論中"},{"start":13987.526,"end":14000.688,"text":"OK 因為這次雖然交通部只有編到1.4億可是我們希望台鐵這相關的一個安全部分在這一次當中也能夠得到一些相關的一個提升好不好是…謝謝次長 謝謝好 謝謝鄭振賢委員次長請回接下來請吳宗憲委員質詢麻煩內政部長好 請劉部長內政部劉部長"},{"start":14035.123,"end":14049.478,"text":"部長你好我想說今天我們是審查花蓮馬太安溪的重建特別條例但是我想我這邊我的立場絕對支持花蓮的重建那該補的該做的我都贊成但是同一個時間我還是要替我們宜蘭這邊發聲"},{"start":14052.04,"end":14081.003,"text":"因為上個禮拜我想大家都知道宜蘭那邊有淹水當時我進了蘇澳五級還有東山的災區其實我看到很多災民我進到他們家裡面去看他們很多客廳都整片泥水家具 電器什麼都泡在水裡面然後那個因為我早上去看的時候那很多那邊的鄉親其實他都一整晚沒睡包括那個操作挖土機的也都說一整晚沒睡那個眼神看起來是累到極點然後看不到明天的那種無力感"},{"start":14081.784,"end":14105.707,"text":"我想這次鳳凰颱風它的那個雨帶很長的時間是卡在宜蘭所以它的降雨量非常的驚人這兩天比較難過的是說傳出有一位獨居的就在家裡面溺斃我想今天那個陳金德政委也有在沒關係 陳金德政委不用上來我想還是要麻煩陳金德政委就我們拖了15年的這個蘇澳溪的分洪工程要趕快處理了"},{"start":14107.368,"end":14128.177,"text":"我想陳政委是蘇澳人一定也很在乎家鄉的這些親友的安全所以因為我一直在催促這個事情希望能夠趕快把這個分紅工程早一天開工也好能夠早一天完工也好因為大水什麼時候會來沒有人知道就麻煩政委要多幫忙我想請問部長的一個事情"},{"start":14128.777,"end":14134.122,"text":"我想這次院長已經有承諾這個專案的補助最高10萬元我想這對我們宜蘭人非常的重要那不能夠變成是空談那因為之前您說您非常照顧錦霄但是後來錦霄的一些款項你連編都沒有編那我想請問一下那這一次院長承諾的這個款項請問一下你們有沒有我還沒有問完我的問題謝謝麻煩你讓我把問題問完部長"},{"start":14153.14,"end":14158.165,"text":"你讓我把問題問完好不好再麻煩你回答好 那請問一下這次的這個災後的補助什麼時候能夠入帳能不能給我一個期程大概多久內 麻煩部長報告委員你講了鳳凰颱風的部分那個院長已經有同意"},{"start":14168.935,"end":14195.396,"text":"那院長同意的話但是他不在這是特別預算的這個範圍之內他是會要用到行政院的二倍金那院長也只是說最高會到10萬那我們根據淹水的這個高低差的部分那從2萬5萬10萬那我想請問一下部長你們什麼時候會申請這二倍金的部分什麼時候會請問請那個宜蘭縣政府報上來我們就按照程序送到這個行政院來處理那你們有跟縣政府那邊要求他們趕快補資料了嗎"},{"start":14196.417,"end":14211.486,"text":"因為我跟你講 災民不是要聽我們地方政府跟中央政府推來推去災民要問的是什麼時候錢會進他們的帳戶很抱歉 我們已經告訴宜蘭縣政府所以這樣的程序我們會按著程序走那如果說宜蘭縣政府報了貸款的話我們再督促他們盡快來辦理"},{"start":14212.646,"end":14225.952,"text":"所以你的認為是目前還沒有辦法給我一個確定的期程對不對因為宜蘭縣政府的公文還沒有到你只要跟我講原因就目前還沒有辦法是因為宜蘭縣政府的公文還沒有到但是我們補助辦法已經有了但是我也要跟內政網報告就是說如果你們認為這個是宜蘭縣政府的責任要麻煩你們請他們趕快加快因為災民那邊很辛苦好不好"},{"start":14236.837,"end":14258.307,"text":"好那再來我想昨天我還看有一個問題院長說超過100公分會補助10萬但這10萬對我去看那個家裡面損壞的程度那10萬塊連零頭都不夠那我們不能跟那個災民說恭喜你家淹到1公尺所以你符合我們不能這個態度去面對他們所以我們今天還要很積極的去面對這個問題我想10萬塊的這個部分"},{"start":14262.609,"end":14289.311,"text":"院長講了一個話說超過50到99公分要證實有財損然後加碼再加碼3萬塊超過100公分補助2萬塊並證實有財損加碼8萬塊我想請問一下證實有財損這個東西是什麼意思我翻了一下我國的法規我只有在另外一個部的我在另外一個部的財政部裡面有看到如果財產證明損失"},{"start":14291.432,"end":14314.061,"text":"他要要求減稅等等的扣除額等等這個的時候他必須去負擔災害現場毀棄物品的照片警察消防里長村長的證明受損財產的取得憑證財產修理這些估價單等等的如果我們換到以這個如果說財產損失因為我想雖然不同部會"},{"start":14314.921,"end":14329.718,"text":"但是法規的用語都應該是一致的如果我們看了一下財政部的這個所謂的財損的定義那用在我們這邊的話變成你要要求災民要先拍一堆家裡泡水前後的照片也要寫損失"},{"start":14332.18,"end":14360.359,"text":"洗衣機多少錢沙發多少冰箱多少還要付發票還要估價單可能還要配合公所到場去勘查我覺得這個在整災民加上了要證明有財損這個東西在整災民所以我不知道院長是口誤還是怎麼樣但是我知道的一件就是我國院長如果講出來底下都會照單全收所以我要麻煩部長你要注意這件事情因為在我們看一下經濟部對於淹水"},{"start":14362.441,"end":14369.039,"text":"淹水救助的那個規定經濟部有一個水災災害救助種類及標準他們也是只有簡單的"},{"start":14370.814,"end":14399.455,"text":"得检据佐证及现居居住证明之文件经济部也只有这样财政部有那种什么灾损那个财损是什么有非常严格的规定那我不知道内政部你们在运用到这一块的时候在要执行院长的交代的时候我不知道你们会怎么做因为如果依照院长的说法灾损补助分成三个部分30到49公分补助1万块他没有特别要求要做什么"},{"start":14399.895,"end":14423.231,"text":"但是從50到99公分的時候還有超過100公分的時候他要求提出所謂的財產損失財損的證明那如果依照我國公部門對於財產損失證明的要求就我剛講的 你還要拿發票你還要拿維修的資料你還要拿一些前後泡水的資料甚至還要林里長的證明等等這一堆東西都要的情況下"},{"start":14424.211,"end":14441.989,"text":"這不是在保護他們這是在整災民更何況有非常多的災民其實他們是很辛苦的甚至是老人家不好意思主席因為這跟我們依然有很大的關係給我最後30秒所以我還是希望一件事情他們已經受災了他們已經辛苦了我們"},{"start":14443.26,"end":14462.739,"text":"父母官應該要竭盡所能的去幫助他們而且這些老人家你很難要求他們有沒有存這些發票那我再跟部長就是最後這個報告一件事情貴部有一位高階的公務員跟我說 給我一個建議他說"},{"start":14463.9,"end":14476.713,"text":"拜託這些救災的事情可不可以不要讓人民跨部會的去找協助家庭損害找內政部農作損害找農業部店家貸款找經濟部減稅找財政部"},{"start":14479.275,"end":14503.629,"text":"一个灾民搞到最后他已经昏了我不知道找谁所以贵部的那位高阶公务员跟我说因为内政部是灾害防治的主管机关是不是可以请你们做一站式的服务能够让人民来申请一次由你们来协助跟各部之间协调来帮助这些灾民用最简化的行政效率去来对他们协助"},{"start":14504.289,"end":14515.425,"text":"不要因為你們總是號稱這AI內閣嘛就現在我們人民都BI啊就變成從A變B啊大家都BI不能這樣子所以是不是部長這部分你們能不能承諾做到"},{"start":14518.154,"end":14541.029,"text":"可不可以 這部分我們就是請部長我簡單回應一站式的服務詳細的說出書面報告 麻煩你們報告召委跟委員第一個我們會建議行政院重寬處理他的救助標準但是最後到哪一個部會來做一站式的主導可能還要請行政院做決定因為內政部是災害防治的主管機關我們是應變所以我才會說"},{"start":14545.051,"end":14566.765,"text":"但是我們還是以行政院的命令為主我不是幫宜蘭爭特權我只是說幫宜蘭人了解我們宜蘭人的補助有沒有時間表什麼時候入戰還有能不能以戰士的服務那我希望不要有下一個不要再遇到下一個颱風又再來大量災害不要說下一個晏曬湖土石流或下一個暴雨去侵害我們的人民好不好麻煩部長多幫忙好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":14572.538,"end":14576.32,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢好 謝謝渣偉那我們是不是先請這一次的行政工程委員會的主委陳金德主委請陳金德主委"},{"start":14612.732,"end":14636.895,"text":"委員好 主委今天在討論這個是馬太安的特別預算不過因為我選區嘉義我想說還是藉這種機會我來問一下丹納斯的狀況丹納斯主委你是指揮官所以有一些狀況我想要透過這次質詢再做一個確認"},{"start":14638.516,"end":14652.772,"text":"就是說我們這一次當然是颱風對於汙損的一個補助大概把它分為幾個層級就是所謂6坪以下或是6坪以上20坪以上以下這樣子一個標準"},{"start":14654.653,"end":14677.712,"text":"當時是說如果到了六坪以上的話就會有補助五萬那二十坪以上補助十萬那六坪以下原本是沒有那地方政府像我們嘉義縣政府就是補助五千這沒有錯那後來在九月五號的時候因為針對六坪以下的沒有這件事情大概有些民怨所以後來行政院加碼六坪以下補助一萬"},{"start":14678.433,"end":14697.299,"text":"那在這個兩個禮拜前我們卓同泰院長也在我們大家一起的爭取之下大家後又針對不管坪數只要你是自行修繕的就再加碼兩萬塊這個就不管坪數就是六坪以下也有六坪以上也有 二十坪以上"},{"start":14697.819,"end":14726.618,"text":"也有這樣的一個兩萬那我這樣來統整起來所以就是如果以六坪以下的那經過地方政府我們嘉義縣政府補助五千九月五號的時候補助一萬那在卓院長最近又公告在內政部也在十一月七號已經發文給地方政府就是再兩萬自行修繕所以只要有自行修繕的污損這一次丹納斯颱風就可以得到補助三萬五千塊這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":14728.52,"end":14736.026,"text":"那五千是嘉義縣政府台南市政府它本身二十坪以下的它是發一萬"},{"start":14738.933,"end":14758.864,"text":"對 那還有其中有弱勢戶也有特別在發弱勢戶有在增加 對 沒有錯有在增加1萬 有在加碼那我剛講的是說那如果非弱勢戶就一般戶而言那就是 行政院就是3萬跟地方政府就是3萬包括縣政府的5000就3萬5如果縣政府加5000就是3萬5對 那所以因為"},{"start":14763.306,"end":14775.159,"text":"我們這是陸續公布我們怎麼去協助這些災民所以災民本身是混亂的因為20平方米不是20平20平方米以下的就6平20平方米以下如果說以嘉義縣政府5000的話那這當中會有一個問題"},{"start":14784.131,"end":14799.943,"text":"有人可能屋頂破損了18平方米那18平方米是很大還是很大還是很大所以跟那個1平方米是差很多是所以的確那一部分人多而且很多人是的確沒有受到這個補償的就是救助的所以才會"},{"start":14801.364,"end":14815.673,"text":"20平方米會有個相對剝奪感因為弱勢戶已經都有了所以一般戶再加2萬然後因為這裡面有的是自行修繕沒有透過這個前進指揮所來媒合的所以全部都再補助2萬自行修繕就2萬嘛對對"},{"start":14819.075,"end":14822.376,"text":"再加上剛剛講的原本的1萬就是3萬這沒有錯再跟指揮官再確認一點因為原本如果是6坪以下就是20平方米以下的他們可能會覺得說只有地方政府的5000所以他就沒有去申請他就沒申請"},{"start":14841.061,"end":14844.005,"text":"現在看起來行政院的誠意夠了他就覺得我應該要來申請所以他的申請期限我們有展延到11月31號也就是這個月底 沒有錯吧"},{"start":14855.887,"end":14874.659,"text":"這個斬年是指加碼的部分照理說一開始申請的20平方米以下縣市政府都已經有名冊了那個申請就按照那個名冊去加碼補發就可以了那是按照名冊但是有一些是原本沒申請的"},{"start":14875.82,"end":14890.212,"text":"對 地方政府因為就是要去現場去看嘛到底有沒有破損那你剛才講的可能是嘉義縣有些人五千太少了那就沒有去申請我想那個嘉義縣市府他自己可以決定要到什麼時候還可以決定我們是說11月31號啦他可以自己決定那如果受理申請了五千那行政院當然再加碼三萬如果原本就有五千的那就是最單純的啊就直接入帳就可以了"},{"start":14903.763,"end":14908.047,"text":"那我現在是有因為有些申請是說原本因為他認為只有五千所以他就沒有去申請那就趕快補申請那補申請就可以太好了那要感謝根據縣市政府的名冊來補發好那我在最後一分鐘我再請教一下"},{"start":14920.399,"end":14939.143,"text":"那就是石棉瓦的問題這一次我們因為屋頂的損害大部分是石棉瓦石棉瓦的清潤費用它的後端處理費用非常的貴這個價格很高所以處理石棉瓦大概是一個現在我們整個地方在做環境清理的時候是一個很大的問題那現在說石棉瓦可能好像"},{"start":14946.105,"end":14967.192,"text":"現在的清運能量已經不足可能是預算的問題還是後端處理能量的不足這件事不知道但是我們想要說至少我們嘉義跟台南都一樣吧就是說石棉瓦不會說台南優先處理我們嘉義後處理應該沒有這樣吧環境部的石棉瓦是補助縣市政府對"},{"start":14968.112,"end":14975.978,"text":"那就是去化一噸是4萬5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千均勻是5千"},{"start":14994.412,"end":15023.476,"text":"我們還是希望說這個石棉瓦這處理可以加速因為現在它就是等於太空包把它放在這個我們根據丹納斯風災的相關預算會再補給環境部做必要的來處理這個石棉瓦這樣真的要拜託因為我們現在災後整個整個清潔環境的清潔大家都很急都希望趕快把它恢復到災害前面這個真的是要靠中央預算就趕快集齊好不好"},{"start":15024.056,"end":15050.65,"text":"好謝謝謝謝蔡宇宇委員接下來請陳昭之委員不在陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在接下來請陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員不在現在請邱政軍委員邱政軍委員邱政軍委員不在現在我們請盧憲一委員質詢"},{"start":15056.758,"end":15066.624,"text":"主席有請陳經德主委跟園民會曾志勇主委好 我們再請陳主委還有園民會曾主委委員好 主委好"},{"start":15076.894,"end":15093.619,"text":"今天早上上午九點我們法庭案自救會青年他們到本院表達強烈的訴求在那邊抗議因為光復鄉公有十四個村有七個村受災總戶數是五千零一十一戶有一千八百三十七家戶受災"},{"start":15094.659,"end":15120.403,"text":"那目前申請的中級屋有41戶不過他們最在乎的就是說居住權益跟家園復建的經費是10.02億元佔總預算的比例約3.7%所以請問我們兩位主委面對災民的慘重損失中央政府要如何評估說服受災戶說你僅以預算不到4%的經費你要如何家園重建各位報告"},{"start":15124.552,"end":15137.146,"text":"這個是我們內政部編的這個預算是我想說預算的比例偏低有沒有辦法說在按照部落的需求跟在地當地族人的需求能夠調高跟委員報告這個"},{"start":15139.42,"end":15159.212,"text":"特別預算是根據特別條例然後政黨協商出來的總數所以目前看來是沒有辦法說馬上做調整這個就是送來大院來審理我要說的是就是說我們有一定的預算是要蓋中繼宅"},{"start":15160.313,"end":15174.251,"text":"所以有需求的大概60幾戶所以如果說60幾戶的中繼宅那個預算是夠的那其他就是關於這個水利設施或者是農地的補償或農地的重劃那這些都有足夠的預算"},{"start":15175.953,"end":15191.808,"text":"針對家園重建的話我們不能說這樣看起來是足夠的還是一按照的需求比如說族人的需求當地居民的需求你估算以後才可以說是多少錢光復鄉不只是阿美族還有客家人還有平地人"},{"start":15192.649,"end":15214.631,"text":"我們那個錢每戶35萬針對保全戶跟受災戶35萬是提供給大家做一種家園的清理 復原當然有一些是財損是補助 衛助性質並不是補償或者負責要重建或者就是個人的房屋的重建我想這個非常不同的意義"},{"start":15215.672,"end":15241.884,"text":"那我們還是呼籲說我們內政部園民會能夠用最簡化的程序最快的速度將補助送到災民的手中全部都發下去了一站式服務在那邊就陸續都發放下去前幾天我們去了名利我相信主委也去了你看一下那當地的場況名利的部分也比照關戶鄉來做未租金希望說他那個300億裡面有包括在名利村有再包括在裡面可以嗎就是比照"},{"start":15245.799,"end":15263.597,"text":"大概我們看到就是大概受災會有31戶包含沒有門牌跟沒有門牌的這個有實際居住跟受災事實就可以可是他們就是說有一個訴求說你不能因為他沒有門牌就不補償或者是說做一些理賠不是理賠"},{"start":15264.198,"end":15279.994,"text":"沒有門牌但有實際記住叫村長簽名就可以最主要是他們現在的需求是這樣那我們有發現說村長跟鄉長在事發的之前大概有跟我們當地的就是我們救災的比如說是工程"},{"start":15281.576,"end":15296.522,"text":"第九河川分署或者是水保或者是說我們林保署有反映說我們當地的潰堤的可能性不過在事情發生之前他們頂多只用了一些沙包造成這次11月10號這麼嚴重的災害我說這個責任歸屬要歸給誰"},{"start":15301.089,"end":15321.249,"text":"我跟委員說明了馬灘溪的北側就是鳳林跟萬榮是比較高的地方然後那邊的堤防當年省政府做的就是高規格的堤防比較好南邊關戶的比較差但是因為那個地方地勢本來就比較高所以那一段是沒有做堤防而不是破口"},{"start":15321.869,"end":15350.558,"text":"所以主要是因為它是有已經有當地的鄉長跟村長有跟我們防災的這些我們長官去的話有反應不過它畢竟沒有做補強的措施所以它有緊急的去做必要的設施但是因為整個河川已經很高了所以水下來會溢過去剛好那個地方是沒有做堤防的地方所以就溢到那個名利村的一些道路上面然後進入社區"},{"start":15352.158,"end":15374.181,"text":"我看到這次的報告書裡面沒有針對我們這300億沒有針對我們原基法的一些機制來做一些構想比如說你應該要保障我們原基法的部落諮商同意這個部分這個法律的層面我覺得沒有顧及到所以以後在要重建的時候你針對比如說水"},{"start":15376.383,"end":15389.488,"text":"水利設施 農業這些菸社會的整治土地的取得這個部分法律的一個準備面我覺得園民會應該要強力的來把我們園區法來顧及到可以嗎可以 報告委員可以"},{"start":15395.27,"end":15421.088,"text":"可以好最後的就是說關於名利這個部分我們有一些請求就是希望能夠一些跨部會治理平台的運作有些KPI就是說我們社區地方的一個部落市警能夠百分之百納入決策流程48小時能夠完成補正跨部會的風險資訊不得互相矛盾然後中央的誤判必須提出檢討報告"},{"start":15422.369,"end":15440.767,"text":"部落的知識必須納入的工程設計的一個比例然後部落風險的地圖完成 可以嗎可以 因為我們的重建協調匯報本來就包含各部會 跨部會有包含好 不能再讓名利村這件事情再次上演好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝盧縣議委員"},{"start":15446.428,"end":15456.978,"text":"好 謝謝現在請許智傑委員許智傑委員許智傑委員不在現在請謝一鳳委員自宣好 謝謝主席我想要請莊部長好 請財政部莊部長"},{"start":15481.235,"end":15489.703,"text":"莊部長委員好我們現在已經11月了我想請問一下今年的稅捐徵收的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":15491.191,"end":15504.036,"text":"跟委員報告今年到10月底為止中央的稅收是收到了2兆4673億元達成全年度的稅收的預算是88.6%"},{"start":15506.497,"end":15530.356,"text":"哇 很精準耶 是不是按照那個每一個月的進度所以今年度沒有超增是不是今年度的我們沒有所謂的超增也就是我們的實增數跟預算數之間怎麼樣的達成你們就是符合預算數對不對今年的預算數因為比去年的實增數我們有增加了947億元"},{"start":15532.538,"end":15553.428,"text":"所以今年在時增數的部分要達到預算數到目前為止我們認為具有一定的挑戰性我想要請問受到美國關稅的影響申請延期繳納或者是分期繳納的企業有多少個人有多少"},{"start":15555.799,"end":15567.602,"text":"你們有統計嗎因為這個有延遲對不對這也其實是今年的稅收是延遲的效果是會有那我們有統計那是不是會我們提供給委員這邊你們都有數字還不敢拿出來是不是手邊有沒有數字是不是有數字不敢拿出來沒有不敢那是不是這個部分你們署長說明一下好了"},{"start":15583.351,"end":15584.295,"text":"告訴大家一下嘛"},{"start":15590.503,"end":15606.676,"text":"跟委員報告大概申請延期的包含國稅跟地方稅在一起有2315件目前核准的2068件那大概申請延期的金額是125億元分期的部分合計是13572件目前核准13240件核准的491億左右"},{"start":15614.582,"end":15619.304,"text":"所以大概就有500億合計的話有616億你剛才說那個延遲繳納是延期跟分期加國稅跟地方稅加起來國稅是611億"},{"start":15631.448,"end":15652.778,"text":"國稅是611億地方稅大概5億左右5億多所以有600多億是延遲繳納也算到今年的稅收裡面是受到關稅影響我們給予它分期以及延期繳納的是不是那明年咧"},{"start":15654.518,"end":15674.046,"text":"明年預計出口的數字是怎麼樣你們有做規劃嗎明年的出口這個部分這個部分我們大概是全年還是講明年明年因為你現在還沒有辦法估計明年的出口啊你開始你們應該開始在做了吧是不是"},{"start":15674.466,"end":15693.347,"text":"我們明年當然總預算已經編的稅客收入也有一個編列的數字因為明年的稅客收入受到財化法因為有一定的比增加到地方去所以中央的稅收是比今年的稅收的預算數來的低大概差三千多億"},{"start":15694.686,"end":15707.478,"text":"少3000多億我們編的總預算裡面中央的稅客收入比今年114年的稅客收入要減少到3000多億多少 數字是多少 宋署長"},{"start":15715.834,"end":15739.829,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們一百一十五年度的預算數我先講中央數跟一一四年度的預算數大概差了差了兩這樣是兩千多我看看這樣是兩千內地稅你要加合計數這個合計啊關稅啊這是關稅大概三千零啊三千零三十八億對啊差三千零三十八億"},{"start":15741.271,"end":15755.614,"text":"主要是一頁稅的部分因為現在大部分都變地方少了3534億好 所以就是那個部分就是變到地方去是不是對 成為地方的因為到中央統籌分配稅款裡面去了"},{"start":15756.041,"end":15775.19,"text":"好那如果就是等到明年的就是出口的數字出來的時候再麻煩給我的辦公室一份好嗎可以我們出口每一個月都會在月中的時候會在記者會裡面去報告有關出口的數據好那再麻煩你好謝謝我想要請農業部長"},{"start":15787.423,"end":15799.804,"text":"部長我想請問一下喔未來的廚餘養豬喔要採取怎麼樣子的做法是不是用就是說已經不用廚餘而是把廚餘再製成飼料"},{"start":15800.748,"end":15830.614,"text":"我跟委員說明現在目前還在做一些討論那其中有一個方法就是說我們將現有的廚藝把它飼料化那飼料化可以規格化的時候那繼續可以讓豬來吃這是一個方式另外一個方式就是說用高溫蒸煮的方式但是高溫蒸煮一定要符合相關的規範包括它即時監控還有落實茶的部分那這個部分我想我們已經在跟環境部做一些討論然後應該很快就應該會有一個比較好的"},{"start":15830.714,"end":15858.361,"text":"不能夠全部飼料化是目前我們飼料再製的就是能量不足嗎現在因為廚餘的部分以環境部來講它後端的再利用如果說貿然的就是停止廚餘養豬的時候它的後面的廚餘沒辦法沒辦法完全的去化會造成一些環境問題所以我們在考慮說是不是應該有一個過渡期那過渡期以後我們看怎麼處理我們現在"},{"start":15859.241,"end":15881.606,"text":"你記得我在經濟委員會質詢過你有關於黑水盟的事情就是我有跟環境部也去共同看了黑水盟的處理廚餘的方式我不曉得你們對於黑水盟處理廚餘的方式的探盤查的方法學你們有沒有對它做認證了"},{"start":15882.566,"end":15911.117,"text":"可以了嗎你們上一次說要再討論以現在黑水盲去餵廚餘本身這些飼料化本身那技術上已經沒問題了現在說這個方法後面的這些飼料只能用家禽的飼料不能用在豬的部分這是國際的規範所以我們希望說它是一個去廚餘的方法但是應該還有其他的像您剛才講的就是廚餘用一些"},{"start":15912.017,"end":15941.677,"text":"一些其他的工业的方法我是说这个部分那个陈部长你要回去因为这个问题我也问了第二次我知道这个我们已经技术没问题了就是减碳的方法学对 我知道减碳的方法学现在已经在他们已经在评估看看它的本身的那个值那个值如果够的话才值得去做方法学对 那我们也希望说能够减少我们台湾的厨余那找到一个可用的方法那这个部分再麻烦你"},{"start":15942.057,"end":15957.04,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒我們會來處理好 謝謝謝謝謝一鳳委員部長請回好 我們待會兒劉許廷委員這個咨詢完畢我們休息五分鐘現在請李坤臣委員咨詢謝謝主席我們先請內政部劉部長好 請劉部長"},{"start":15986.75,"end":16004.819,"text":"委員你好來 部長好我在手上有一本這個台灣安全台灣全民的安全指引我發現我這本其實是舊版因為你們新版還特別把這個馬灘系列的顏色湖有把它加進去是不是"},{"start":16007.683,"end":16011.526,"text":"對 應該就是有些大自然災變的部分我們覺得有與時漸進的話國安會指導我們就把它放到裡面去因為我這個是比較早拿到的版本所以這裡面的版本 我比對了一下這個新的版本裡面還有花蓮馬太安溪的煙色湖"},{"start":16027.276,"end":16049.85,"text":"然後如何遇到危險的時候天災的時候怎麼去做防範因為我們會遇到這本書裡面這個其實有天災有人禍預防天災就是我們剛剛常講的颱風 地震 土石流 煙車等等還有包含就是說遇到的威脅有可能是軍事侵略都寫在這裡面對不對"},{"start":16053.139,"end":16056.322,"text":"請問一下部長 這本手冊是從今天開始普發嗎是開始作業 要分地區對 因為我看國防部還有內政部有說明是採取用選舉公報的方式做普發就對了 是不是"},{"start":16076.545,"end":16103.84,"text":"對 就是我們會透過民政系統來協助普發這個全民安全國防組織那大概最晚是哪時候全民可以拿到這一本書因為我覺得這本書其實編得滿好的明年初 明年初 希望1月對…農曆 農曆明年農曆過年前都能夠拿到其實我是覺得我們自己的這一個不管是警消役 消民防他們這一本應該都要好好的去參閱一下因為其實裡面滿多值得參考的地方"},{"start":16105.135,"end":16127.053,"text":"報告委員 景銷 民房 義銷他們本來就要匯這些不是只有拿這個來參考而且他們還要救人 所以不太一樣裡面的資訊是滿新的是好 謝謝劉部長接下來請這一個我們財政部莊部長請莊部長還有主計處我們陳主計長陳主計長這個有一些可能要說明一下免得被外界"},{"start":16134.946,"end":16156.297,"text":"誤會啦 說昨天你們有找這個各縣市的這個財主單位有來開會 是不是然後呢 這個我看你們開會的主要是中央跟地方的市權的劃分原則嘛所以主要是在講這一個市權的劃分原則嘛因為財劃法的這一個水平分配的話應該之前財政部就有說過了嘛"},{"start":16157.458,"end":16172.796,"text":"就是說我們水平分配的指標大概是哪些大概都有講過了所以昨天我看有很多的在野黨今天就拿說兩張Air Force兩張Air Force就要來決定財務法這個主計長要對外講清楚"},{"start":16175.464,"end":16198.094,"text":"是 這個部分我們主要是針對市權的一個原則和結構來做說明而且它大部分市權的分派大部分跟114年度大致相同是大家各縣市所熟悉的一個方式所以這個部分在整個紙張方面就沒有只做一個簡報的分析它一張說明這樣"},{"start":16200.495,"end":16227.204,"text":"因為它是跟114年度的一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款原則上是都一樣還有包括一般性補助款裡面的一個基本財政收支差短移到統籌分配稅去這樣我們是就針對原則性的一個說明所以這個部分並沒有涉及到整個財劃法裡面它一個財源分配的一個問題好 那我接下來請莊部長"},{"start":16228.624,"end":16251.92,"text":"那這個我們這個行政院版的這個財化法是明天會送院會是的 明天會提報院會討論那麼在院會之後會有記者會我們會詳細的報告跟大家報告財化法修正案的一個整體架構就是它的垂直跟水平就對了對 都會報告好 那我先問一下這個垂直分配來講的話會比這個114年度的這個分配的款項還要多嗎"},{"start":16259.489,"end":16268.797,"text":"會比114年就是三項合計中央統籌分配稅款加一般性補助款加計劃型補助款會比114年當然會增加也會比115年的總規模來的增加那增加去年是多少"},{"start":16277.203,"end":16304.935,"text":"1兆0131億那115年是1兆1683億所以多多少多多少那明天會約會討論後再來做一個試算因為這個設計我們基本上是用像115年是用115年的稅客收入來計算所以垂直分配基本上會比114年還多就對了會多的那這個統籌分配款的部分因為今年等於是4400多億"},{"start":16306.896,"end":16308.517,"text":"4676億那115年是8874億那我們在三項佳績會比這114跟115年都增加那中央統籌分配稅款的規模當然我們要考慮到市權的一個調整也就剛剛主席長所講的"},{"start":16326.263,"end":16340.811,"text":"在這個有關市權調整也就屬於地方自治的事項要回歸到地方去辦理的事項有哪一些但是會在中央統籌分配稅款裡面把它放到基準財政收的需要額裡面去也就是說會把它納入"},{"start":16341.671,"end":16364.236,"text":"是不是就是說我可以講就是說因為市權你們有做重新的調整了市權按照地方自治事項做一些回歸的部分那當然一般性補助款也還是會有那計劃型補助款也還是會有那所以因為市權做了調整了原本是要由地方來做處理過去由中央來支付的未來會回到地方來做處理"},{"start":16365.878,"end":16389.165,"text":"部分不是全部那就是屬於經常性常態性的那所以這樣子的話整個統籌分配款是因為這樣增加嗎除了這個當然還有其他的因素我們認為要提升地方財政自主一向來就是財化法在我們在財政部討論以後行政院討論的時候提升地方的財政自主本來就是我們的一個目標"},{"start":16390.505,"end":16404.238,"text":"最後再問 如果按照這一個因為我們願版是明天才送接下來要送到立法院來如果按照這個在野黨他們目前所通過的財務法的修正案的話你們有提過 第一個自愛難行 要舉債舉債會違反公債法總預算也不可能退回去從邊"},{"start":16412.937,"end":16423.686,"text":"因為他要增加2646億那超過舉債的一個上限所以我們這是沒有辦法的也沒辦法退回去從邊也會違反了公債法的舉債上限15%的規定怎麼辦"},{"start":16431.186,"end":16458.26,"text":"我們現在要循憲政的一個程序來做救濟可是第一個你如果要呼籲的話也不會過我想政治現實第二個我們這個大法官現在也沒辦法來做這個事件案的這個裁判那所以呢所以我們有新的裁判法提出來我們希望也是大家希望用現在的裁判法來做處理就對了大家一起共同來討論然後來看這個有沒有一個"},{"start":16458.82,"end":16475.247,"text":"所以新的財務法是能夠解決目前的僵局就對了是 我們是希望如此可以 希望如此好 謝謝好 謝謝李坤勝委員我們更正聲明待會兒我們請徐以貞委員質詢完畢我們再休息十分鐘那接下來請劉許廷委員質詢謝謝主席內政部 經濟部 農業部有請內政部劉部長經濟部賴次長"},{"start":16486.721,"end":16488.562,"text":"農業部我們陳部長好 我也好好 沒關係我們先開始這個我們還是回到今天"},{"start":16500.963,"end":16526.613,"text":"質詢的主題就是有關於花蓮馬太安溪的一些後續的一些處遇跟機制上的一些調整今天跟幾位首長來做就教現在馬太安溪到底安不安全其實也很難講對不對因為這個東部的地質本來就比較敏感加上颱風侵襲的狀況本來就比較頻繁加上這個堰塞湖潰堤之後它本來地質就處於一個高度不穩定的狀態比如說前一段時間這個便道又被淹沒 溪水暴漲"},{"start":16528.494,"end":16551.582,"text":"幾乎是以命相搏是很危險的一個狀況那我想請問一下因為一次找你們三家來就是核心的問題就是我們待會要討論一下未來針對驗射壺到底要市權要不要統一那我們就幾個問題第一個我們以現在花蓮馬太安溪附近的狀況還有沒有形成新的驗射壺的可能我們現在能不能講說花蓮的光復箱已經脫離了危險的狀態這哪一位可以回答"},{"start":16555.134,"end":16575.575,"text":"跟委員說明現在目前那個馬丹西的驗生物有兩個一個大一個小就是一個大的原來的原本驗生物現在32.5萬噸然後前上個禮拜行程的那個又經過一流潰堤以後剩下5萬噸左右但是因為兩側還有非常多的沙土所以隨時可能好大雨"},{"start":16576.716,"end":16591.213,"text":"土石在崩的時候隨時還有可能再成為一個新的驗測壺農業部長先第一個站出來處理是因為你是土石流的主管機關所以驗測壺你是主管機關不是 我們是馬太安上游的負責我們負責監測跟警示好 謝謝所以現在還不能講說脫離危險狀態對吧"},{"start":16595.798,"end":16613.964,"text":"對 因為現在目前那個邊坡的土石大概有1萬立方公尺所以隨時有可能不管是地震它再崩下來就會形成新的岩石湖對 如果再崩它就會成成新的謝謝部長的說明再來我要問現在我們在編列特別預算要協助相關的一些重建工程花蓮光復鄉經過地震跟颱風等等大自然基本上改變了水文條件"},{"start":16614.904,"end":16634.107,"text":"那現在到底從上游是你處理的嘛對不對那到下游包含判斷進到有人居住的地方這整個的規劃哪一些是安全哪一些是危險的分別的風險燈號是什麼這是哪一個單位決定的我想我們從上游的部分我們透過現在目前的專家團隊他會用最"},{"start":16636.469,"end":16656.745,"text":"風險最大的情況之下如果完全潰堤的時候那它的水量到下游大概會上升多少公分然後根據這個多少公分可能會造成的一些必須疏散的部分是由我們的農業部林保署這邊會先提出一些警訊所以劃定安全跟危險等等區也是農業部處理嗎"},{"start":16657.526,"end":16679.487,"text":"就是我們會給一個建議但是如果說給一個建議那誰來決定當時如果有颱風形成的話應變中心如果成立的話那更會用跨部會根據氣象局的這些資訊去做一個中整的判斷我前面聽了蠻高興的因為至少你整個非常的進入狀況當然這個是已經發生了但是你後面這段回答其實就會讓大家比較擔心因為"},{"start":16680.928,"end":16691.088,"text":"你其實做了很多的監測然後其實你有一定的專家學者的數據作為支撐但是決定的時候你還是要等颱風快來的時候成立一個災害應變中心然後還要做跨部會的協調才能決定不是這樣"},{"start":16693.006,"end":16715.936,"text":"因為我們發布的時候有黃色有紅色警戒的部分那如果說颱風沒有進來的時候如果下大雨的時候那相對的我們還是會發黃色跟紅色警戒也會畫這個紅色的警戒區域會給縣市政府跟岡地的鄉鎮工作你是要等應變中心出來才能做這個事嗎還是你本來就做那是哪一個單位做沒有 應變中心"},{"start":16716.736,"end":16734.854,"text":"成立的時候是應變中心那應變中心成立是有颱風的時候才會成立然後如果沒有颱風只有下大雨的時候就是由農業部農水組會發布黃色或紅色警戒那你就簡單回答基本上評估整個區域的災害風險就是由農業部決定就好了嘛對 不過這個也可以這樣講啊OK 很好 謝謝"},{"start":16736.836,"end":16752.65,"text":"這今天特別要提一下要把三個人一起找過來就是因為這樣嘛就是我們的地震災害由內政部管理對不對我們的水災由經濟部管理剛剛農業部回答比較多因為土石流這個性質上可能比較接近嘛對不對那現在艷澀湖你們經過了這一次的事件之後到底有沒有統整一下到底是由誰來管理"},{"start":16754.546,"end":16775.827,"text":"三位都可以回答沒有關係的燕社伍本身現在目前還是農業部來負責主責好我希望這個事情相對明確啦好不好就是以後既然他已經是一個狀況而且他本來就是很多部位砸在一起嘛然後我們本期是特別在這個預算審查之前提出一些提醒啦就是說未來可能發生這些狀況的時候其實他應該是早一點部署嘛好不好"},{"start":16776.227,"end":16795.817,"text":"這是本席的一個提醒那再問一個問題就是說之前討論馬太安這個事情的時候曾經有講說工程手段不可行可是後來變道其實也都開出來了對不對那未來如果再發生工程手段不可行等等的一些很難的問題的時候那應對方案比如說側村等等是哪一個單位負責"},{"start":16798.118,"end":16814.614,"text":"還是農業部負責嗎我先回答您剛才講的就是工程手段的部分那現在因為它還是在雨季下雨天的時候整個的便道現在還沒有便道只是去攤勘的便道而不是整個要未來要去降蛙的這個便道"},{"start":16815.214,"end":16835.948,"text":"那等到我們的過了這個雨季的時候我們才有機會往上去看有沒有機會去降蛙我剛講的問題是因為你工程手段不可行所以你可能要做其他的處理可能要提早撤存預警等等下游的部分就會由水利署這邊來協助水利署所以是經濟部決定要不要撤存等等嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":16836.368,"end":16856.341,"text":"不是水利署是針對河道本身的一個整治的河道本身的整治嘛不是你講這些大概都是已知啦其實我謝謝部長還算回答的蠻詳細的我希望整個行政院體系啦不管是劉部長也好或者是經濟部農業部的代表陳部長也好都要去思考一下如果他這是一個很嚴重的狀況而且會影響人民的生命財產的時候"},{"start":16857.522,"end":16881.33,"text":"這個事權的分配乾脆明確一點這當然不是你們三個可以在現場決定的但希望把它提到行政院的平台做明確的分工以後好超前部署也不用說等到相關的應變的時候大家再有一些狀況我想未來處理這樣相關的事情會更好這邊就做一些提醒希望行政院可以好好針對這個事情做明確的分工跟詳細的討論可以嗎可以好 謝謝三位辛苦了好 謝謝劉許廷委員 謝謝接下來請徐益臻委員質詢"},{"start":16892.756,"end":16893.86,"text":"謝謝主席我們請陳主席長跟莊部長請主席長還有莊部長"},{"start":16907.814,"end":16932.615,"text":"委員好主席長好 莊部長好有關昨天主席總署有召集我們地方政府溝通之後發了一份新聞稿有提到說中央統籌分配款跟一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款不低於114年度的三項合計數那主席長你在跟中央這個地方政府在跟你們開會的時候你們並沒有提供修法的版本也沒有經費的估算表"},{"start":16933.095,"end":16955.731,"text":"一切都是你們單方面的在解這個講解對外的說明那請問主計長行政院的裁劃法修法版本是要回到113年12月修法前然後提出新版的修法我們可以看一個表格就是這是在114年8月29號國土署公佈的資料114年度的這個通知分配金額是4400"},{"start":16959.333,"end":16971.879,"text":"61億然後115年的通知分配金額是8488億請問一下若依照行政院的院版重算的話115年度可以分配多少"},{"start":16972.967,"end":16991.956,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們昨天談的主要是市權的一個結構和原則的一個討論所以這個統總分配稅的一個部分它是這個財政部負責我現在請教您你手邊上一定有資料115年度可以分配多少這個部分是財政部負責請問一下中部長跟委員報告"},{"start":16996.023,"end":17002.405,"text":"我們行政院的修法版本明天會提報院會討論院會討論確定通過後我們會在會議的記者會跟各位報告不會比114年度少嗎所以是多少會有4600億還是4700億還是如表上所寫的8000多億"},{"start":17017.585,"end":17031.995,"text":"跟委員報告我們是講說114年的救治就按照原來的財化法他中央統籌分配稅款是4676億但是加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款是一兆零131億那麼115年度就是根據"},{"start":17035.817,"end":17046.62,"text":"去年12月通過的採劃法修正以後的三項合計數是1兆1683億三項合計數是中央統籌分配稅款加一般型補助款加計劃型補助款那我們修法的目標我們的修法目標就已經會把這個三項合計數釋出給地方挹注的規模會比115年度來得高因為時間的關係就115年度到底可以分配多少"},{"start":17065.371,"end":17086.213,"text":"115年度现在就是依照1683亿只有1683亿可以分配依照去年12月底通过的财务法法我想请教一下根据主议总处的新闻稿强调不低于114年度的年度预算数这三项中央统筹分配算法跟一般性补助款跟计划性补助款"},{"start":17086.653,"end":17108.472,"text":"看起來像是保障地方實際上就是一個障眼法因為中央財政收入本來就會隨著經濟成長的逐年增加所以統籌分配算法自然也會增大那你們現在保證這個114年度不會比140年度少也沒有保證要公平分配各位知道我們為什麼要修財化法嗎就是因為過去長期存在著嚴重的偏差"},{"start":17109.173,"end":17128.847,"text":"民進黨執政的縣市拿得多非民進黨執政的縣市拿得少所以我們這次的真正的修法的目的是希望能夠公平分配可是看來行政院的修法根本沒有觸及最核心的公平分配的版本只是讓中央更加齊全又集全我們的公平分配比去年的版本來得公平這樣的版本修法我們怎麼同意委員您知道去年通過的修法版本以後"},{"start":17137.054,"end":17150.629,"text":"各縣市增加的比例嗎我想剛剛提到的這些你就可以知道我們現在看起來事實上完全看不到中央的誠意也看不到你們修法真正要去解決公平分配的問題所以這樣的版本修法我們都不會同意那當然剛剛我想主席長有提到昨天的這個市權劃分的原則會議"},{"start":17156.616,"end":17177.517,"text":"也很多縣市都跟我們反映你們只用一個不到800字的縮帖然後沒有版本 沒有公式 沒有試算 沒有清單然後完全沒有任何資料他們還要像賊一樣拿手機在偷拍簡報的資料然後地方的普遍反應就說這樣而且針對已經很多核定的重大建設的補助也被通知要調降"},{"start":17178.678,"end":17193.015,"text":"那中央還暗示說院版通過之後就會恢復主席長這樣是什麼意思如果修法沒有通過那中央可以先這樣下修補助然後用恢復當作交換條件嗎這難道不是在逼地方要接受院版的才化法嗎"},{"start":17195.245,"end":17212.844,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們昨天討論的一個市權分配的原則大部分都是跟114年度相同所以一般財政局或者主計方面他們都非常的熟悉那請問一下昨天有沒有市權清單有沒有財務估算"},{"start":17217.359,"end":17224.867,"text":"如果沒有的話什麼叫做事權花分誰能夠表達意見因為什麼都沒有嘛而且你下放的事權有哪些"},{"start":17227.042,"end":17253.286,"text":"主席長 你昨天有告訴他們要下放的市權有哪些嗎還有呢 每一項的市權需要多少的裁員地方是不是能夠負擔額外的人事成本那你只講說什麼單軌 二軌 三軌你這些具體的目標都沒有講你要地方怎麼表達意見而且你們的新聞稿還特別提到說地方都普遍都同意了 只有少數幾個縣市事實上 據我了解 在座的根本沒有同意是因為就沒有版本要怎麼同意"},{"start":17253.826,"end":17279.395,"text":"不是 因为这个部分最后的一个数据是明天会宣布但是昨天讨论的主要是原则的部分昨天请他们来开这个市权的这个划分的会议不就是真的是争笑吗不是 因为我们讨论的一个市权主要是比照114年度所以114年度项目大家都非常的熟悉那我刚讲的就是要下方的市权有哪些他们熟悉吗市权需要多少财源他们熟悉吗"},{"start":17280.74,"end":17286.984,"text":"以114年的基礎來看的話既然都沒有那請他們來開會一點意義都沒有重點是你們事後還發新聞稿說大部分的縣市都同意這樣我非常不能夠接受一定要跟地方充分的溝通才能夠好好的來去實行我們這一次的這個市權的一個相關的工作也說一下將來的分配辦法還有補助辦法通通會再召開相關的縣市來做"},{"start":17305.174,"end":17319.344,"text":"其實經過已經將近一年了你們現在才召開市權的會議而且是用這樣一個粗糙的方式我非常不能接受請這個主席長要好好的思考 謝謝好 謝謝徐議政委員我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":17335.811,"end":17360.811,"text":"對"},{"start":17364.855,"end":17374.855,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":17403.985,"end":17406.357,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17948.752,"end":17956.354,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 請大家保持宿敬那接下來我們請許富奎 許委員質詢謝謝主席 有請我們主計長還有財政部莊部長請陳主計長 財政部莊部長委員好主計長好 部長好"},{"start":17978.991,"end":17987.996,"text":"我想根據我們主計總書跟財政部的一個資料這個目前我們政府長期債務的餘額將近6兆元短期債務是4191億那整體位長的這個債務餘額有6.4兆那平均我們國人的負擔的債務27.4萬請教部長跟主席講這個數字正確嗎"},{"start":18004.627,"end":18020.256,"text":"我想不管是中央執政還是地方政府這個財政機率的重要性非常的重要我想兩位應該同意這個論調嗎那尤其當然我們現在國人"},{"start":18021.757,"end":18047.863,"text":"為了解決很多的基礎建設也好社會福利教育文化我們當然政府也必須投入很多的資金來做這樣的一個改善但是我們現在看到這樣的一個藍白二修財化法之後造成我們中央跟地方市權也好還有整個財務的結構也好財政機率蕩然無存主委長跟部長剛剛那麼多委員在問你們我們想我們行政院的版本也要出爐了"},{"start":18048.843,"end":18075.402,"text":"未來你們有沒有信心這個行政院的版本會被我們多數的縣市來支持我們這一次修法有幾個目標那這個目標事實上是對中央對地方都是好而且中央地方的夥伴關係事實上是更加的提升我們修法目標非常明確第一個我們希望國民的生活品質能夠更均衡不管你是生活在鄉村或生活在都市"},{"start":18075.802,"end":18101.085,"text":"他必須要能夠有一定的生活品質跟公共服務第二個我們的修法目標就是我們的錢權的分配要更合理也就是說中央跟地方之間的財政資源的分配必須要合理第一個地方要強的財政自主的能力那麼也要顧到中央的財政的韌性跟財政的穩健這個必須要做合理還有城鄉之間的分配要更公平不能讓富者越富"},{"start":18101.565,"end":18120.322,"text":"好 部長那如果依據我們上個禮拜我們立法院通過的這個版本那卓院長也講了如果我們再舉債五千六百億之後那我們換算一下我們國人增加的負擔又多了兩萬多塊所以我們大概會變成我們國人每個人負債要高達三十萬左右"},{"start":18120.962,"end":18146.533,"text":"那面對這樣一個困境那剛剛部長也講了我們過去要均衡台灣那我們也擔心許多的這個重要的重大建設尤其是南台灣的重大建設會受到衝擊影響那未來有沒有考慮把我們像農業線來好屏東線也好我們的農業漁業的指標這次有沒有把它放進來一併討論是的我們在邀請各地方政府來開會的時候各地方政府也都有表達這樣的意見尤其是農"},{"start":18147.633,"end":18163.76,"text":"農林業為主的都有價值我們所以這一次在分配的指標裡面會把農林榆木的產值放進去以及人口數也都會放進去這樣子才能夠均衡到地方的發展但聽起來是雙北跟北部幾個非農業縣都反對這個版本那以後怎麼處理"},{"start":18166.489,"end":18170.093,"text":"這個部分我們必須要詳細說明我們知道就是說原來的分配的方式讓原來營利事業的營業額高的他獲配的更多那其實這就是工商發達的城市他本來的財政能力就比較強那我們應該財政那個財化法最主要就是要能夠均衡地方的發展"},{"start":18185.532,"end":18206.315,"text":"以及做所謂調劑財政的營需那麼對於財政能力比較弱的部分本來就應該要透過中央統籌分配稅款給予比較多的一個挹注讓它能夠發展出來也就是所謂的要有一個均衡的發展各地區的國民必須要有一個基本的生活品質跟良好的公共服務這就是財化法本身就要有具備的精神"},{"start":18206.854,"end":18218.905,"text":"我想這個未來的路還很長這個過程也很艱辛我想我們要堅持對的方向才能落實這個軍方台灣的一個理念副長跟主長請回那我們有請經濟部我們的賴次長好 請賴次長"},{"start":18224.093,"end":18247.387,"text":"委員好市長我想你看到圖片上這個這是過去你在擔任水利署長的時候我們屏東這個東港臨邊加東沿岸的這個離岸堤那時候因為有水利署跟中央支持我想我們對於這個沿海的這個風浪的侵襲也受到很好的一個保護但隨著年代久遠已經都落下來了而且有些地方那個缺口太大了"},{"start":18248.367,"end":18262.734,"text":"這幾次颱風我去看了現場已經沒辦法發揮作用有沒有辦法盡快來加高跟強化這個縮小這個艱鉅這個我們絕對會加快過去感謝因為中央政府有一些能量"},{"start":18263.234,"end":18288.142,"text":"有預算來支持我們的特別預算所以我們面臨在極端的氣候之下不管是比如說前一陣子包括恆春的這個東門溪的這個滯洪池也是在這個理念之下完成的那未來還有東港 恆春 萬丹很多的治水的工作那屏東縣政府已經有盤點出來優先秩序那我們也會盡量來協助屏東縣政府"},{"start":18288.682,"end":18307.439,"text":"我知道我們有提出4年1000億的一個整治預算當然這個我們都希望我們的在野黨也要全力來支持這個畢竟治水不分藍綠我們能夠怎麼樣防害這個極端不要讓我們的極端氣候受到讓我們的環境受到影響但是我們也擔心這樣的一個採劃法的修法之後"},{"start":18308.86,"end":18338.022,"text":"布裡面針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣的因應措施這也是我們很擔心的若是未來沒有足夠的能量的話地方還有很多需要協助治水的但是在這幾年在行政院的協助之下開密颱風我們就核定了差不多將近31億元的屏東的一個治理我前一陣子到屏東去周縣長也提出來有將近超過70億左右的一個預算的需求"},{"start":18338.542,"end":18366.565,"text":"那我們會依照優先次序來做分別的一個輔助次長我想我們都朝前部署做這個因應極端氣候的一個準備那當然也希望中央能夠大力來支持屏東縣政府那尤其這個您在擔任署長期間我想我們系統性的治理從上游包含未來我們也要求水保署林保署到我們的水利署到我們的縣市政府整個從上中下游整個系統性的治水把我們這個最後治水的這個"},{"start":18367.385,"end":18394.836,"text":"工程能夠把它做到這個盡量減少到我們的危害性我想中央也要發揮最大的力道那當然以我們屏東縣政府的財政該吃爛啦尤其明年最起碼少了40幾億那未來也期待我們中央能夠大力來支持是 謝謝委員指導其實從96年淹水治理計畫之後我們做了非常多的抽水站那些的抽水站都已經非常的老舊了所以我們就納到這個4年1000億裡面來希望說獲得逐步的改善"},{"start":18395.476,"end":18402.562,"text":"我們也希望中央能夠持續的經費的挹注來協助地方好 謝謝好 謝謝許副國務委員接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在"},{"start":18411.703,"end":18433.976,"text":"王世堅委員 王世堅委員 王世堅委員不在蔡奇昌委員 蔡奇昌委員 蔡奇昌委員不在游皓委員 游皓委員 游皓委員不在邱毅英委員 邱毅英委員 邱毅英委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":18435.417,"end":18441.942,"text":"請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在請王振旭委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請衛福部理事長好 請理事長"},{"start":18471.608,"end":18493.447,"text":"委員好女士長好針對這次花蓮馬太安這個菸攝乎在後重建特別預算的部分是有兩個主題要跟您來討論一下有關建立大型的這個集體災害之後的心理健康預防與治療機制還有就是加強化沙風化加沙災民及志工心理急救跟創傷復原的這個照護的部分是"},{"start":18493.867,"end":18516.733,"text":"其實就是世界心理健康日是很重要的一個對大部分的人來講是重要性你知道世界心理健康日是哪一天嗎10月10號感謝委員今年的主題是什麼知道嗎今年的主題很湊巧就是人道緊急事件之下的心理健康就剛好符合我們台灣目前的現況沒錯"},{"start":18518.573,"end":18544.851,"text":"為什麼他要特別訂立人道緊急狀況的需求因為我們知道人道緊急狀況基本上分成三大種一個就是自然災害一個是人為緊急情況一個是複雜的緊急狀況這個部分這些包括地震 風災都算是自然傷害這些傷害其實對當地造成影響是蠻大的除了人命或者是身體健康以外心理健康也是非常重要"},{"start":18545.611,"end":18573.862,"text":"WHO就非常强调说没有心理健康就没有真正而且全面的健康所以他们的一般的估计有20%的人后面都会造成这样的困难跟困扰所以他们特别的重视希望能够针对这样的人道紧急状况之下心理健康能够更加强来保护相关的这些人群我们可以看到除了受灾害的人群以外在右下角我们看到的就是对人道工作者的相关权利跟权利的保障"},{"start":18574.762,"end":18597.405,"text":"還有承受的壓力也希望共同來處理這個就是我們這次災區的這個發酵風災以後這些產值超人還有志工們這個就是我們希望能夠持續來關注的部分那我們也知道這次衛福部也透過好的機制來做災後心理健康預防跟治療的機制這個部分就是包括剛剛所提到的有關於關懷花蓮"},{"start":18599.106,"end":18628.048,"text":"馬太安這個院舍府的災民心理支持服務要全力展開那另外相關的這個救災英雄產值超人的要請他們能夠安心的來做處理以外呢也希望能夠有好的心理健康的支持方案那這部分等一下看部長有沒有一些執行的狀況或者是這個資源是不是有足夠來做因應的部分那我們稍微了解一下日本日本他們其實天災跟台灣比起來"},{"start":18628.949,"end":18656.32,"text":"甚至更多他們就委外做了一個有關於災害精神協助小組這樣的運作的模式這個運作模式裡面他們要求當有這些自然災害發生的時候需要在48小時裡面就要抵達災區來展開相關的服務工作還包括有精神科的醫師 護理師行政人員這樣的專業團隊來協助幫忙他們經過這30年來的執行發現成效非常良好所以他們很希望把這樣的這些"},{"start":18658.121,"end":18682.604,"text":"服務的過程流程還有服務的這些需要注意的事情能夠讓其他國家來做參考那我們期待台灣透過這一次的這些需求我們能夠持續的來強化這一部分所以我們今天才會了解說這次其實也編列了3600萬相關的經費不過主要是用在這個建築物的這些修補或者是醫療儀器的災後災損的部分"},{"start":18683.184,"end":18704.077,"text":"跟這次的心理健康並沒有全然的關係所以才會想要利用這次的預算過程裡面的做一個主決議來針對於災後心理健康的議題希望能夠有效的來補助這一塊這部分可不可以請次長先做一個說明還有針對這個主決議的內容希望能夠接下來支持"},{"start":18704.699,"end":18708.801,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我上個月剛去柏林參加全球健康論壇確實現在目前也就是陳如委員剛剛所說的整個災後心理的重建的部分還有精神科的部分這是WHO現在非常重要的一個重點另外第二個委員剛剛所說的就是我們現在目前我先跟委員報告我們在第一時間當時我們就啟動了整個這一個災難"},{"start":18729.489,"end":18733.551,"text":"心理的這個輔導主要是由我們部立醫院跟我們的新建師他們來派員前往現在在我們的主決議裡面有提到這一個部分我們現在目前會在啟動我們現在目前地方的衛生局還有整個就是我們部立醫院這邊的一個相關的一個心理醫師的部分其實我們現在目前所需要照顧的不光災民其實"},{"start":18757.764,"end":18779.257,"text":"當時前往這一個協助的志工等等這些甚至包括我們的國軍其實事實上都需要類似像這樣的一個整個這個相關的輔導希望我們能夠完備相關的有關你心理健康的支持的部分讓不管是災民也好或者是參與的志工都能夠得到最好的協助非常感謝鄭旭委員對這議題的關心謝謝謝謝王志旭委員也謝謝次長"},{"start":18801.32,"end":18808.609,"text":"下一位我們請林思明委員發言好 謝謝主席我請農業部陳俊濟部長有請農業部陳部長"},{"start":18823.8,"end":18846.028,"text":"是 部長好 部長我們今天審馬太安溪特別預算我想這次針對這一次的災害重創花蓮光復香 許多家庭陷入困境在這樣重大的天然災害 我想我們大家都是命運共同體沒有什麼限時之分 中央也必須展現責任"},{"start":18847.569,"end":18871.495,"text":"所以本席也號召了新竹縣很多的民間的力量共同捐贈物資或者到現場去救災那麼我們災害的我們這一次的特別預算除了要讓光復鄉的鄉親重回正常的生活我想有一個非常重要之點就是如何利用這一次的特別預算的編列"},{"start":18872.415,"end":18879.865,"text":"我們防止這樣的事件再次的發生也就是說我們不僅要治標我們更要治本"},{"start":18881.533,"end":18895.679,"text":"那有關我們這一次這個林保署編列馬太安溪顏色湖整治的相關工程還有這個相關的工程還有農業復原還有復原重建這個統籌協調業務分別編列了14.3億9.2億還有250萬元合計總共23.5億我第一個問題要請問部長的顏色湖的整治是否可以做到治本"},{"start":18911.414,"end":18940.34,"text":"而不是治標我想我們現階段我們大概因為現在目前的整個地質不適合比較大的機具上去做降蛙的這個動作所以在短期之內我們還是用監測的方式跟預警的方式來處理可是中長期的部分等到我們的訊息過了以後那如果說我們的相關的機具能夠上到壩頂的時候那我們會嘗試做一些降蛙但是我要跟委員報告就是因為他三"},{"start":18941.36,"end":18965.127,"text":"那個馬太安溪是非常狹窄的谷如果旁邊的那些土砂在崩的時候就會形成新的顏色湖部長 剛剛相關委員的質詢你都講得很清楚了我本身也了解只是說我們這次編的14.3億是有關於馬太安溪顏色湖的整治工程你的內容因為剛才你講那麼多什麼現在可能沒有辦法基劇沒辦法進去"},{"start":18966.107,"end":18972.951,"text":"但是你這14.3億它的內容大概包含什麼項目你可以講一下我想第一個部分就是我們會進行就是從"},{"start":18974.828,"end":19000.491,"text":"變道開挖先做變道的進行然後變道進行讓車子能夠進去以後機具進去以後開始嘗試做降挖的這個動作讓這個菸塞爾湖的本體的部分能夠解除現在目前的一個危機然後第二個部分就是因為每次下大雨就有一些泥沙會下來所以我們會在上游的部分做一些藍沙壩讓這些沙做一些阻擋"},{"start":19001.232,"end":19016.659,"text":"不會造成下游的那個河床越墊越高那這個部分我想都是在這個14.3億裡面要做的是 部長我想因為時間的關係所以你現在講14.3億就是你剛才大概講的這些項目對沒有其他的聽起來好像很簡單"},{"start":19018.226,"end":19036.637,"text":"不過這個是一個非常困難的事情因為很困難嘛所以我想你這14.3億如何的讓這個就是房子很重要嘛所以我剛才一直強調說你如何把這一次的經費用在刀口上讓這種事件不要再發生嘛所以假設這不是假設我們現在很明確的問你很嚴肅的問你如果這14.3億"},{"start":19040.219,"end":19069.315,"text":"我们这个整治经费把它花下去之后是否可以保证说就一定可以有效的预防下一场大雨之后下一场如果再下一场又是这样的大雨来临我们绝对不会再有这样的事件发生我想我们花了我想花了这些钱没有人能够保证说以后不会再发生我刚才说的我至少能够做适当的减灾但是不能保证说以后不再发生"},{"start":19070.069,"end":19080.917,"text":"不能保證喔因為旁邊的這些砂石隨時都有可能再次崩塌那我只能就現有的驗射壺我可以做到適當的減災的部分"},{"start":19082.699,"end":19109.01,"text":"所以這個部長這就很嚴重你現在只能減災所以你沒辦法保證說這個是類似的事情我們這次的錢花下去會不再發生天然災害就這樣聽起來很恐怖對 這些急降雨不確定因素太多了而且現況山壁就有非常多的土砂它隨時因為大雨 地震部長如果說你說沒辦法保證我要問你那你的監測系統是不是要做得很好對 我們現在就是在監測系統會去強化"},{"start":19110.58,"end":19137.395,"text":"是 所以你在監測有時候你要如何做預警我想我們在整個的堰車湖的湖面本身就有放一些水位計跟監測計的部分然後我們有攝影機的部分那如果還有跟氣象署聯絡如果急降雨的時候我們會隨時去評估所以你這14.3億還有沒有包含說未來要去增購一些比較精密的這個也包含在裡面也包含在這裡面都會去做嗎對 剛才講的監測的系統"},{"start":19139.056,"end":19159.558,"text":"好 OK 其實部長我想這個你因為真的要很嚴肅的去面對這種事情如果說再一次發生我想真的是全國人民都不能接受的你一定要去力保說這種事情不會再發生了這一次編了那麼多的經費興趣我要跟委員說明一下馬太安溪的上游本身"},{"start":19161.551,"end":19187.121,"text":"馬太安的淹涉湖壩體本身貢獻的水量跟沒有馬太安溪大概50 50的所以那邊因為它是集水區的部分只要是下大雨的時候就很有可能造成所以現在還沒有下所以大家一直希望說利用這一次的預算編列下去農業部要這個要上緊發條了解我們要跟上這種事情不要再發生了好不好我們一直持續這樣做部長請問最後這個主席給我1分鐘我請主席講"},{"start":19195.014,"end":19221.822,"text":"主席長我看這次的預算法定上限就300億這次編列270億還保留30億作為備用我看到這個我們這個本條例還有特別預算的施行期間是自公佈日施行至116年的3月31日子但這個但書講說馬太安溪艷澀湖整治後續處理等部分項目則辦理至119年底"},{"start":19223.943,"end":19243.958,"text":"都要請教你 如果這30億就是後來沒有用你剛也回答楊群文說這個如果要用要再編列預算 要再去送交我們本院來做一個審議沒錯但是你現在就是說你這邊講說因為我們這個馬太安溪的整治是到119年底"},{"start":19247.338,"end":19269.473,"text":"整個條例是在116年3月31日它就結束了所以這30億是不是不管你以後如何編都只能指定它的項目就只能用在這個馬太安溪的艷澀湖的整治項目上不是 它就是整個那個華江沙颱風的一個整個一個"},{"start":19271.214,"end":19286.647,"text":"你這邊這個條例裡面的它不是只有馬太安溪馬太安溪是對 這個是菸社我從前特別條例裡面因為你講說你這個後續整治的部分則辦理至119年底"},{"start":19289.994,"end":19307.665,"text":"那你條例即便已經失效了但是你整個未來的三十億你還在所以我剛才問你說三十億沒用完因為這個整治部分是要一直辦到119年底所以這樣聽起來你三十億一定是要用在整治項目上面所以你看三十億到116年"},{"start":19309.912,"end":19322.5,"text":"119年你這邊寫119年底119是指那個已經有分配其他項目在做宴賽府的一個部分那個部分它可以做到119年那就是270億裡面所以這30億不限於一定是要做馬太"},{"start":19329.885,"end":19354.572,"text":"對 不限移 不是不是 它是整個整個那個條例裡面規範的項目都可以是 都可以是 所以如果說但是在116年度條例生效就是戒指之後的話它就要另起爐灶就要譬如說要動二倍金或者災害準備金這樣子而不是用這個條例我看你的預備金有準備你這個270億裡面有編一個15億的預備金"},{"start":19361.474,"end":19378.359,"text":"所以這30億未來動資到的可能性應該是很小了對 因為他還要透過預算程序再提出來還是要重新編列是吧是 才可以好 以上了解好 以上謝謝好 謝謝林思銘召委的發言也謝謝陳部長跟陳主席長的答詢"},{"start":19388.39,"end":19408.624,"text":"好 接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢我幫你記起來你剛剛超過3分48秒好 謝謝好 請這個人民會的主委還有公共工程委員會的主委好 請曾主委還有陳主委"},{"start":19410.422,"end":19434.816,"text":"這次花蓮馬太安溪在歷經海淹鳳凰兩隻鳥的摧殘之後那造成關戶萬隆鳳林等鄉鎮相當嚴重這樣的一個災害各位都很辛苦本期在這次也提出一些主決議也是希望諸位長官可以來允諾那第一個就是說我們馬太安的這災情波及到許多原住民的部落"},{"start":19435.851,"end":19445.71,"text":"我要請教工程會跟人民會的主委是說中央重建匯報與馬太安西的這個事件從業小組是否有納入一定比例的部落代表席次這兩個"},{"start":19448.391,"end":19476.425,"text":"中央的匯報專案小組原民會是成員之一是 怎樣 對不起原民會也是成員之一原民會也是委員還有各部會主要是行政院的各部會在執行特別預算的各部會所以已經有原住民的聲音了那受災地區呢光復鄉呢它有客家人 有漢人有原住民 阿美族原住民有三個部落"},{"start":19477.814,"end":19499.307,"text":"馬太安 太巴郎 阿塔莫不同的部落所以我們沒辦法說一定有一定比例的原住民學者或什麼原住民來當這個專案小組主委答覆 我覺得重建匯報有原住民委員會進駐了啦有 有比例嘛 對不對好 沒關係那馬太安溪的事件重建小組呢"},{"start":19501.688,"end":19530.86,"text":"這個重建小組現在就叫做中央的專案匯報是匯報然後有設執行秘書有三個副執行秘書還有各部會分成大概九個組在進行重建所以你的意思就是說這個中央匯報裡面有涵蓋這些小組是這樣嗎小組是不同的不同比方說環境部內政部這些組委員的部分包含就原民會也是其中之一"},{"start":19533.082,"end":19555.163,"text":"我只要跟主委討論因為我們太多這個在互見很多是在官員在看天下的角度那今天有這麼多部落當然原民會也是代表部落的聲音但如果可以把一定比喻的部落代表可以納進來 鈴鈴他們的聲音會不會更加精準 更加及時去做一些反應內政部跟原民會"},{"start":19556.224,"end":19569.134,"text":"都有到當地去辦理說明會了包括中繼載或者農業部委去辦說明會關於這個農田的這個重化或者是復耕都有當地一場一場的辦說明會了"},{"start":19572.952,"end":19587.219,"text":"說明會是一個程序也是一件事情然後專案小組必要的時候也可以邀請相關的專家或者是當地的人來表示意見但沒有辦法一定比例當作正式的委員這個是有困難的"},{"start":19589.029,"end":19606.669,"text":"博主我講一段你參考看看啦災害防救法第六條跟特別條例第六條都明文規定重建應尊重原住民部落與文化嘛對不對但現在最大問題就是沒有看到一定體制內的一個具體的一個制度"},{"start":19607.309,"end":19635.002,"text":"這個要點是行政院院會通過的要點那要點也是執行預算的主要是執行預算來成立一個匯報那關於原住民的意見當地每一個部會執行預算的時候就會辦理說明會參考原住民的意見不會說不考慮原住民的意見我再引用一個引力你參考看看很多跨部的匯報當中都有納入外部的代表慣例"},{"start":19636.364,"end":19644.449,"text":"包含實案匯報有地方代表廉政匯報有外部專家地方暢生匯報有更直接媒合在地的社群"},{"start":19645.783,"end":19674.581,"text":"應該只要相關單位願意就可以了這個匯報事實上在執行特別預算的所以如果要成立外部我們可以列席邀請來表示意見或後來做一些討論但沒辦法變成一定比例正式的成員在這個匯報裡面如果主委答覆我是可以邀請他們來列席聆聽一些意見那我想就是一個進展嘛這樣就可以來這樣處理嘛必要的時候我們會邀請但是主要執行的是各部會各部會在當地都在舉辦了"},{"start":19677.321,"end":19686.897,"text":"所以跟委員報告不好意思這個如果說納入這個匯報裡面當作正式成立而且要求一定比例那不一定是在地的原住民這個執行起來會有困難"},{"start":19687.912,"end":19707.69,"text":"不是 我在主委 我在組決議中也有特別提到了是不是重建小組中納入一定比例的部落代表席次但是你現在講說一定比例是有困難度是不是這樣就我們的要點已經通過了然後是各部會在執行預算的人他並不是一個在討論或者是說這個諮詢的匯報"},{"start":19711.553,"end":19717.751,"text":"他是真正在執行預算的匯報所以這部分要納入一定比例的這個成員是有困難的"},{"start":19719.025,"end":19743.512,"text":"那可以納入一定比例的列席代表嗎可以吧列席代表我們會邀請沒有不一定要一定要一定比例那到底是多少比例是有困難的大家當然是可以討論出來的啦所以這方面呢每個部會執行率算的是每個部會他們都到當地去舉辦說明會了所以那個如果任何意見事實上可以接納可以在那裡面來落實最起碼主委可以"},{"start":19748.462,"end":19772.498,"text":"同意我的建議把原住民的相關部落的代表納入在列席的代表裡面嗎可以吧原住民就原民會已經在成員裡面了不是不是你剛剛已經打呼我了嘛所以原住民就原民會就是代表就是那個會報原民會就是代表他是初席代表他是代表對啦他是初席但我沒有辦法每一次都有固定的人來列席"},{"start":19774.243,"end":19786.82,"text":"我沒有要求你一定要固定的人來練習啦這個是你自己多想出來的啦好不好你剛剛承諾我這個部分就照這樣來處理嘛應該可以吧我們必要的時候你們後面的原住民的主委已經給我點頭了你還沒辦法幫我點頭不是我"},{"start":19789.083,"end":19802.701,"text":"我是這個匯報的執行秘書是我知道了所以各部會是成員所以他們各部會本來就要負責去了解當地原住民的意見所以如果說在這個匯報裡面還有不足還要再反映那必要的時候我們會邀請我跟劉委員可以承諾這個"},{"start":19804.724,"end":19824.957,"text":"OK 好 當如果園民會主委也有邀請部落的代表來列席的時候也請執命來協助嘛 對不對 我們會跟園民會來商量OK 好 謝謝 好 那程尚我要請問園民會主委 是我知道這個諮商取得原住民原住民族部落同意參與的這個辦法"},{"start":19827.737,"end":19849.389,"text":"這知道嗎知道因為上次這次災情不僅僅是一個部落有些事項是需要跨部落去處理如果僅僅是以部落為單位要處理這麼多事情可能會有些事項出現三不管的狀況所以我要請教主委是不是依據諮商取得原住民原住民族部落同意參與辦法在這個關西部落設置"},{"start":19853.533,"end":19878.947,"text":"跨部落災害災後諮詢平台協助當地部落加快部落事項推動與決議可以嗎這可以就是好幾個部落就成立一個跨部落的一個平台而且這樣的諮商會議是我能夠每次都做出這個諮商記錄然後由部落代表在重建小組的會議中提出納入災後重建計畫的審議之中可以可以啦好謝謝好謝謝主席OK"},{"start":19883.84,"end":19898.221,"text":"好 謝謝劉建國委員接下來請羅明財委員羅明財委員不在我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢現在進行預算提案的處理"},{"start":19900.19,"end":19920.144,"text":"請議事人員宣佈今日審查預算案之審查項目及提案共36案預計宣讀時間20分鐘宣讀完畢後我們預計在2點半進行協商相關的提案如果沒有涉及的機關可以先行離席好"},{"start":19922.543,"end":19950.352,"text":"宣讀 宣讀中央政府花蓮馬太安溪淹塞湖災後重建特別預算案一百一十四年度至一百一十九年度其中有關目的部分請委員自行參閱處理表一收入合計兩百七十億債務之舉借兩百七十億一百一十四年度三十八億零五百六十二萬元一百一十五年度八十六億四千三百三十八萬元一百一十六年度八十五億五千七百一十萬"},{"start":19951.132,"end":19953.153,"text":"117年度40億5600萬元118年10億2850萬元119年度9億0940萬元支出合計270億稅數270億114年度38億05600"},{"start":19967.322,"end":19989.321,"text":"五百六十二萬一百一十五年度八十六億四千三百三十八萬元一百一十六年度八十五億五千七百一十萬元一百一十七年度四十億五千六百萬元一百一十八年度十億兩千八百五十萬元一百一十九年度九億零九百四十萬元第一款行政院主管六億零四四百九十一萬八千元一百一十四年度無劣數"},{"start":19990.462,"end":20020.062,"text":"一百一十五年度三億七千兩百九十一萬八千元一百一十六年度一億三千六百萬元一百一十七年度三千兩百萬元一百一十八年度三千兩百萬元一百一十九年度三千兩百萬元第一項原住民組委員會四億六千七百九十一萬八千元一百一十四年度無劣數一百一十五年度三億四千七百九十一萬八千元一百一十六年度一億兩千萬元一百一十七年一百一十八年度一百一十九年度均無劣數第二項公務工程委員會一億三千七百萬元"},{"start":20021.423,"end":20027.427,"text":"114年度無劣素 115年度2500萬元116年度1600萬元 117年度3200萬元118年度3200萬元 119年度3200萬元第二款內政部主管 28億4100萬元114年度7億3800萬元 115年度5億9220萬元116年度6億3080萬元 117年度3億8000萬元"},{"start":20046.121,"end":20050.506,"text":"218年度2億5000萬元119年度2億5000萬元第一項國土管理署及所屬28億4100萬元114年度7億3800萬元115年度5億9220萬元116年度6億3080萬元117年度3億8000萬元118年度"},{"start":20065.815,"end":20094.634,"text":"兩億五千萬元一百一十九年度兩億五千萬元第三款經濟部主管九十億九千一百一十五萬六千元一百一十四年度一億九千零六十萬元一百一十五年度三十六億六千一百五十五萬六千元一百一十六年度二十四億三千九百萬元一百一十七年度二十八億元一百一十八一百一十九年度均無劣數第一項經濟部五億兩千一百一十萬元一百一十四年度一億八千七百六十萬元一百一十五年度九千四百五十萬元"},{"start":20096.216,"end":20101.181,"text":"116年度2億3900萬元117 118 119年度均無劣數第二項產業發展署2000萬元114年度300萬元115年度1700萬元116 117 118 119年度均無劣數"},{"start":20113.404,"end":20121.807,"text":"第三項水利暑期所屬85億元114年度無劣數115年度35億元116年度22億元117年度28億元118、119年度均無劣數第四項商業發展所3000萬元114年度無劣數115年度3000萬元116、117、118、119年度均無劣數第五項中小級新創企業所2005萬6千元114年度無劣數115年度2005萬6千元"},{"start":20142.773,"end":20147.216,"text":"116 117 118 119年度均無劣數第十款交通部主板44億2000萬元114年度4億4535萬元115年度21億4465萬元116年度18億3000萬元117年118年119年度均無劣數第一項交通部1億4000萬元"},{"start":20166.246,"end":20180.584,"text":"一百一十四年度五百三十五萬元一百一十五年度九千四百六十五萬元一百一十六年度四千萬元一百一十七年一百一十八年度一百一十九年度均無劣數第二項公路局級所屬四十二億八千萬元"},{"start":20181.385,"end":20189.391,"text":"114年度4億4千萬元115年度20億5千萬元116年度17億9千萬元117至119年度均無劣數第五款農業部主管43億零690萬6千元114年度5億零94萬元115年度8億2676萬6千元116年度7億6130萬元117年度8億4千4百萬元118年度7億4650萬元119年度6億2740萬元"},{"start":20212.287,"end":20216.95,"text":"第一項 農業部適宜8540萬6千元 114年度1億6474萬元115年度2億9866萬6千元 116年度2200萬元117年至119年度均無劣數第二項 林業及自然保育署及所屬23億5250萬元"},{"start":20232.982,"end":20236.383,"text":"114年度1億7120萬元115年度3億1270萬元116年度5億1610萬元117年度5億3950萬元118年度4億2650萬元119年度3億8650萬元第三項農業金融署"},{"start":20252.72,"end":20278.099,"text":"兩千九百萬元一百一十四年度無劣數一百一十五年度兩千九百萬元一百一十六年一百一十六至一百一十九年度均無劣數第四項農糧署及所屬三億六千萬元一百一十四年度一億元一百一十五年度一億零六百四十萬元一百一十六年度六千三百二十萬元一百一十七年度四千三百六十萬元一百一十八年度兩千八百八十萬元一百一十九年度一千八百萬元"},{"start":20278.96,"end":20282.965,"text":"第五項農田水利署10億8000萬元114年度6500萬元115年度8000萬元116年度1億6000萬元117年度2億6090萬元118年度2億9120萬元119年度2億2900萬元"},{"start":20299.504,"end":20320.314,"text":"兩千兩百九十萬元第六款衛生福利部主管三千六百零二萬元一百一十四年度一千八百零一萬元一百一十五年度一千八百零一萬元一百一十六至一百一十九年度均無劣數第一項衛生福利部三千六百零二萬元一百四年度一千八百零一萬元一百一十五年度一千八百零一萬元"},{"start":20322.174,"end":20330.136,"text":"116年度至119年度均無劣數第七款進一步主管42億元114年度4億1272萬元115年度10億2728萬元116年度27億6千萬元117至119年度均無劣數第一項資源資源循環數27億元114年度5千萬元115年度4億9千萬元116年度"},{"start":20351.604,"end":20360.173,"text":"21億6千萬元117年度至119年度均無劣數第二項環境管理署15億元114年度3億6272萬元115年度5億3728萬元116年度6億元"},{"start":20366.559,"end":20370.403,"text":"117至119年度均無劣數第八款預備金15億元114年度15億元115至119年度均無劣數以上僅參閱預算書第八至四十一頁"},{"start":20381.816,"end":20402.427,"text":"有關正式別稅數預算所等以上機關別審查結果調整現在宣讀預算提案第一案 中央政府花蓮馬太安溪菸塞湖災後重建特別預算案總預算金額兩百七十億元 凍結百分之一請行政院一個月內提出專案報告送立法院"},{"start":20405.017,"end":20425.937,"text":"第二案本災後重建特別預算案編列預算271億元凍結該預算1億元是行政院一個月內提出書面報告第三案會強化我國未來面對極端氣候致災時的應變能力行政院應參考如日本等國之經驗於三個月內針對我國"},{"start":20427.759,"end":20455.736,"text":"建立救災專責機構之可行性向立法院提出書面報告提案委員張宏祿等人第四案重建的核心原則應是尊重族人的生活選擇與土地使用方式確實落實諮商並取得在地族人的同意或參與讓重建方案合法合乎族人期待真正保障族人權利相關書面報告請行政於三個月內送立法院提案委員高金樹美委員等人"},{"start":20456.576,"end":20481.79,"text":"第五案 為確保本特別預算與公務預算能協調並行請全職機關在提出復原重建計畫時明確說明特別預算與公務預算的分工排成與第一階段預定進度並同步建立每日更新的重建資訊機制符合當地族人需求相關書面報告請行政院與三個月內送力法院提案委員 高進 宿美等人"},{"start":20483.294,"end":20508.232,"text":"第六案為要實質協助原住民族產業重建軟硬體制建設缺一不可請原住民族委員會及經濟部成立跨部會推動工作小組針對原住民族部落產業提供輔導以及修復設施設備書面報告請行政院於一個月內送立法院提案委員高金素美等人第七案本條例因以國家賠償法為基準"},{"start":20509.973,"end":20532.366,"text":"並在認定標準應做相關調整在本條例內農經受損從官認定並重塑辦理請行政院一個月內提出書面報告送立法院委員 高清 樹梅等人提案第八案請政府著重調整並研議心理輔導相關配套措施應立即派遣心理諮商師進駐於安置點等"},{"start":20533.547,"end":20552.213,"text":"接續規劃線上諮詢及實質諮詢之具體作為請行政院將順便報告於議會內送立法院提案委員高金淑美等人第九案要求中央災害防救匯報中及相關重建小組有一定比例的部落代表席次設置長設議程會議針對部落事項進行檢討相關會議記錄上網公布提案委員劉建國等人"},{"start":20559.255,"end":20580.678,"text":"第十案 請行政院及財團法人政災基金會同依水災災害救助總類級標準第四條第一項第五款但書規定從寬村里長依前述實際居住至證明以特別預算及政災捐款經費予以救助並請內政部協助花蓮縣政府政災捐款經費比照辦理提案委員鄭天才等人"},{"start":20582.068,"end":20606.181,"text":"此議案原民會應協助在地原鄉部落依據諮商取得原住民族部落同意參與辦法召開部落會議決議設置跨部落災後諮詢平台協助當地部落加快事項推動與決議確保重建尊重在地原民文化提案委員 劉建國等人"},{"start":20607.847,"end":20623.864,"text":"第十二案行政院公共工程委員會復原重建統籌協調業務預算數一億三千七百萬元凍結該預算一百萬元一個月後提出順便報告提案委員陳婷菲等人"},{"start":20626.192,"end":20648.031,"text":"第十三案行政院公共工程委員會復原重建統籌協調業務預算數一億三千七百萬元凍結該項預算一百萬元請工程會一個月內提出書面報告提案委員陳廷飛等人第十四案請行政院依花蓮馬灘溪煙澀湖災後重建特別條例第四條第一項第六款及第十款"},{"start":20649.032,"end":20660.257,"text":"將部分經費流用支應原住民族委員會原住民族委員會辦理文化資產復建及振興文化產業委員曾天才等人提案"},{"start":20661.633,"end":20685.207,"text":"第十五案 花蓮馬灘菸塞湖災害顯示災後緊急應變與重建工作高度依賴工程專業人力請公共工程委員會於三個月內提報原鄉工程人才培育與留任制度之政策方向分年推動其層及跨部會協作規劃並第七項立法院專案報告提案委員鄭天才等人"},{"start":20686.528,"end":20702.264,"text":"十六案要求行政公務員公投委員會應將花蓮縣各工程的執行進度財務揭露狀況政府是否專款專用情形每三個月向立法院提出書面報告委員李坤城等人第十七案"},{"start":20703.485,"end":20722.215,"text":"本特別預算涉及災後治理橋樑搶修煙色湖監測及災民安置等重大工程有必要建立高標準的監督制度建井工程會與英江花蓮縣政府配合情形每三個月向立法院提出書面報告提案委員李昆城等人第十八案"},{"start":20724.156,"end":20748.531,"text":"受災民眾及其親屬能於災害發生後進行家園重建復原請內政部會商各災害主管機關嚴育於災害防救法中訂定災後復原價及相關配套措施提案委員蘇巧慧等人十九案為提供安置居民充足時間規劃或尋找適合未來永久居住之區域及其重建"},{"start":20749.494,"end":20765.892,"text":"原建起内政部国土管理署针对延长中继安置计划年限制可行性三个月内向立法院提出书面报告提案委员张鸿祿等人二十案过去中继屋新建仅以提供暂时安全居住之房屋为主此次中继屋"},{"start":20767.574,"end":20783.134,"text":"規劃興建結合受災區域之歷史文化技藝之需求原請內政部國土管理署針對如何讓本次興建中繼社區體現居住居民之需求及其相關規劃三個月內 鄉立法會提出書面報告提案委員 昌鴻路等人"},{"start":20784.775,"end":20800.251,"text":"二十一案馬太安淹災湖災害不同以往淹水等級之災情為避免類似災害發生所致之生命財產損失國土管理署應緊述會同地方政府研擬都市排紅標準提升方案"},{"start":20801.211,"end":20823.864,"text":"請內政部國土管理署三個月內提出完整書面報告送立法院提案委員李坤澄等人二十二案為確保花蓮未來面對天然災害時供電穩定原請經濟部督導台電公司提出完整強化方案包含設備更新自動化提升加速變電所建設增援設備援助等"},{"start":20824.932,"end":20836.311,"text":"及改善地下化管線維修問題三個月內提交順便報告送立法院提案委員李昆城等人二十三案水利署及所屬水利設施預算"},{"start":20838.747,"end":20855.068,"text":"85億元凍結該預算100萬元一個月內提出書面報告提案委員陳提菲等人24案考量全球各地近年因極端氣候致災建請經濟部水利署於未來重建本地區之水利設施使因氣候變遷"},{"start":20856.209,"end":20884.843,"text":"因氣候變遷重新檢討相關防洪標準三個月內向立法院提出書面報告提案委員張宏武等人二十五萬光復鄉以光復唐產馬灘濕地大農大富平地森林園區為主要觀光景點請經濟部商業發展署對於如何規劃在地商圈與觀光景點結合之商業活動帶動遊客前往之意願三個月內向立法院提出書面報告提案委員張宏武等人"},{"start":20886.665,"end":20900.163,"text":"二十六案交通部道路及交通預算數一億四千萬元凍結該項預算五十萬元一個月內提出書面報告提案委員陳廷飛等人二十七案"},{"start":20901.88,"end":20911.462,"text":"為維持政策一致性與公平性 原請交通部評估運用丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算預備經研擬丹納斯風災災區受損汽機車之衛助協助方案兩周內提出具體可行規劃"},{"start":20922.345,"end":20941.759,"text":"公後續執行提案委員郭國仁等人二十八案請交通部就辦理受災戶車輛受損報廢登記衛助方案及相關延伸措施提出完整經費評估申請認定機制執行成果後續改善規劃的書面報告三個月內送立法院提案委員林坤城等人"},{"start":20943.496,"end":20958.054,"text":"第29案交通部公路總局及所屬道路及交通預算數39億3000萬元凍結該預算100萬元請交通部公路局一個月內提出順便報告提案委員陳亭飛等人30案"},{"start":20959.715,"end":20977.831,"text":"農業部辦理各項補助之流程不應單一局限在農會應包含各鄉區各鄉區公所或災後重建單一服務窗口原則請農業部一個月內研議修正相關資訊傳遞及申請流程書面報告一個月內送立法院提案委員高進素美等人"},{"start":20979.452,"end":20989.374,"text":"三十一案為確保相關經費能落實政府協助受災農民之目的其農地恢復至能耕種之狀態並讓當地農業與農民回歸受災前之形態建起農業部農糧署針對災區農業復建之整體計畫向立法院提出書面報告提案委員張宏祿等人"},{"start":21003.982,"end":21029.839,"text":"32案 卫生福利部应参考日本灾害派遣精神医疗队之运作模式建立系统性质心理创伤支援小组提供大型集体灾害发生的心理急救灾害的心理修复疗愈长期复原与任性培力以及社区的心理重建辅导协助灾民集体恢复身心健康与生活功能的全人照护"},{"start":21030.76,"end":21056.437,"text":"服務委員王振旭陳雲等人提案313案請衛福部會同交通部民航局等單位應積極整合相關系統卑劣偏鄉和山區無人機送藥機制常態化應跟地方政府衛生局合作當緊急任務發生時可以處理請衛福部以兩個月內提出完整書面報告送交立法院提案委員李坤誠等人314案"},{"start":21057.816,"end":21081.503,"text":"请卫生福利部就无人机在灾害期间执行送药任务将面临之地形限制通讯覆盖载具性能任务风险与跨部会协作流程等问题进行全面性盘点与改善规划并研提具体强化策略与推动期程于两个月内提出整体书面报告送力法院提案委员李奎臣等人35万环境部闭交墙"},{"start":21082.963,"end":21109.194,"text":"相關揚城及空品的監督並公開資訊讓民眾可以掌握空氣品質同時召開跨部會平台會議針對災區揚城問題進行處理提案委員劉建國等人第三十六案環境募引指數建立災後廢棄物物管理SOP量化推估方法佔置場規範分類與去化流程及跨部會協作區域調度"},{"start":21110.175,"end":21130.394,"text":"調度機制同時建制相關資料庫三個月內提出書面報告送立法院提案委員李昆成等人補充第一案提案委員高清處美等人第二案林月琴委員等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":21637.554,"end":21660.6,"text":"好來我們現在繼續開會好那我們先從這個第一案開始第一案改組決議沒問題有麥克風嗎那個委員已經同意已經同意那個改組決議沒問題修正通過感謝主席謝謝"},{"start":21668.361,"end":21695.783,"text":"來 現在要發的是哪一案第二案那要先發呢來 第二案也改組決議建議免以凍結改組決議 委員你同意委員同意 好來 修正通過來 第三案行政院行政院麥克風遵照辦理好"},{"start":21697.116,"end":21722.936,"text":"招案通過好 謝謝來 第四案遵照辦理好 招案通過來 第五案委員同意修正審查改備查審查改備查委員已經同意委員同意 好來 修正通過第六案遵照辦理好 招案通過好 第七案"},{"start":21725.922,"end":21748.949,"text":"要修正喔 來第七案 這個以後要早一點給喔好 這個是有文字修正有問題嗎很牽涉了嗎來 第七案公共設施國家賠償法"},{"start":21757.806,"end":21784.541,"text":"來 這個哪個單位 是工程會嗎內政部來 內政部書長在哪裡這文字修正有沒有問題來 書長這有跟委員有討論過那可以嗎可以文字可以對好 那我們就修正後通過來 第八案有文字修正"},{"start":21787.093,"end":21815.244,"text":"已經同意修正文字 謝謝好 修正通過來 第九案第九案 來一樣嗎有文字有做修正嗎有跟委員溝通過了好 好 那就修正通過第十案包主席第十案衛福部遵照辦理第十案好 那招案通過第十一案"},{"start":21818.015,"end":21844.384,"text":"十一案遵守辦理遵守辦理好 遭案通過第十三案第十二案建立免禮凍結委員已經同意改組決議好 修正通過來 第十三案建立免禮凍結改組決議委員簽名同意好 那就修正通過好 第十四案"},{"start":21845.68,"end":21873.835,"text":"是建議修正文字Design實際上我這邊是實際上有做文字修正嘛來 那政委員"},{"start":21890.193,"end":21892.694,"text":"那有跟委員有跟委員有溝通過了嗎"},{"start":21894.892,"end":21915.606,"text":"沒有 就尊重政委的意見我們就遵照辦理好 那就遭案通過好 遭案通過來 第15案林建基委員"},{"start":21916.828,"end":21944.119,"text":"來 林委員謝謝主席 各位同仁 大家好我這邊的主決我把它改成主決議但是這個主決議我這邊唸一下好不好相關單位你們可以委員有文字修正嗎有有文字修正嗎所以我整個唸一次好嗎等一下因為我們剛剛有唸過有文字有修正嗎對那修正在哪裡在這邊有文字修正嗎"},{"start":21947.686,"end":21966.863,"text":"不是这个我们现在第15案对我们有文字修改有修改对 我念一下好不好那没关系你们有跟委员有沟通过了吗他们就拿了一个东西来修正的我们遵照办理修正后修正后遵照办理最主要你们东部的"},{"start":21968.143,"end":21988.459,"text":"是 我唸一下好了大部分一樣就是花蓮馬太安 煙色湖的災害顯示災後緊急應變與重建工作高度依賴工程專業人員 人力然後涉及撤離動線規劃 道路享修水文監測及坡地穩定的評估等任務然而東部及原住民地區長期面臨工程專業人"},{"start":21989.56,"end":22004.001,"text":"才不組織結構性問題導致重建進度遲滯工程品質及地方溝通成效均受影響依立法院預算中心113年度分析報告東部及原鄉地區土木工程專業"},{"start":22005.963,"end":22023.871,"text":"職缺長期難以補食制度缺乏誘因設計與培育體系馬太安災後重建經費須由工程會統籌編列一億三千七百萬元微弱原鄉工程人才不足之問題未獲改善未來各項災後工程人將面臨"},{"start":22024.851,"end":22051.554,"text":"執行效率與品質風險是以因研議辦理東部地區原鄉工程人才培育計畫作為提升國家災害應變韌性與原鄉重建能量之長期政策請工程會於三個月內提報東部地區原鄉工程人才培育計畫之政策方向分年推動其成及跨部會協作規劃向立法院提出"},{"start":22057.148,"end":22061.312,"text":"書面報告並定期向提案委員進度報告以立監督"},{"start":22063.037,"end":22086.423,"text":"我們目前的計畫是針對東部地區已經有這個計畫它已經涵蓋原住民所以這裡如果只限定原鄉的話那要不然東部地區及原鄉地區不是 我們只辦一個案是所有的原鄉或者是在花東地區的已經有一個案明年要執行的所以請不要寫原鄉"},{"start":22090.087,"end":22117.345,"text":"我目前是在花蓮車站要辦一個土木我指的是說東部大家對東部的概念差異很大基本上那個台中然後一直到台中花蓮大部分都已經原鄉你都可以來報名所以我們要辦一個土木的學分班所以在花蓮車站那邊辦你花東縱谷的都可以來你不要限定原鄉海岸線然後我沒有說限定但是你東部及原鄉地區這樣都可以"},{"start":22121.668,"end":22131.33,"text":"主委的意思是東部地區就含原鄉了就是範圍更大林委員剛剛我們主委的說明書面"},{"start":22138.365,"end":22162.256,"text":"是還有那個專案報告應該是提書面報告提書面報告然後原鄉不要就是已經辦了你原鄉本來原住民都可以來報名他沒有限定說是誰但我的意思是說那個我怕你們都只辦在那個都市就是花蓮市或台東市但是原鄉會被落掉為的就是讓很多人花東縱谷可以搭區間車到晚上到海岸線"},{"start":22163.436,"end":22182.875,"text":"在那邊上完課馬上又回家老師是跟宜蘭大學的老師合辦所以宜蘭大學那邊也要搭車來花蓮來上課因為花蓮花東這邊的大學是沒有土木系所以是集中在花蓮車站的一個"},{"start":22184.196,"end":22199.845,"text":"教室來辦這個是那我想請教一下那除了花蓮你們以後有可能在這個架構下那比如說縱谷縣其他的就是原鄉地區也有可能嗎明年度預算不知道能不能審通過還不知道我是憑在明年度的預算"},{"start":22200.545,"end":22225.542,"text":"主委的意思是說他選車站是因為交通方便不是只有在市區辦然後東部的這個涵蓋範圍也比較大會比原鄉還大那林委員那要不要就按照這一個剛剛主委的一個說明你再看一下我們這個主委的這一個說明明年度有編在年度計劃當中了請支持明年度的總預算"},{"start":22235.09,"end":22250.696,"text":"因為我是先前有溝通結果大家都會跟我建議宜蘭我想說那個概念上差很多啦"},{"start":22258.517,"end":22278.011,"text":"好 那林委員我們是不是按照指委的說明就是改成東部地區工程人才培育計畫我們就原鄉這兩個字我們把它拿掉就是文字裡面有原鄉的我們都把它拿掉這樣範圍會更大"},{"start":22290.215,"end":22308.124,"text":"來看一下這個要 林委員有簽名嗎所以我看看一樣嗎主委你這些看過了嗎"},{"start":22311.555,"end":22335.903,"text":"原來改的嗎 那可以嗎原先把它改成東部地區好 那林委員我們就修正後通過好 那就按照這個部會修正後通過第15案我們就通過 修正後通過第16案"},{"start":22342.987,"end":22355.494,"text":"好那照案通過第17案遵照辦理好那照案通過第18案18案有文字修正嗎在這邊"},{"start":22370.517,"end":22384.885,"text":"那這個是要增加文字好那這個是勞動部勞動部那就OK嘛那就修正後通過來第19案"},{"start":22387.428,"end":22413.749,"text":"19案遵照辦理內政部嘛內政部遵照辦理好 遭案通過20案遵照辦理好 遭案通過21案遵照辦理遭案通過22案遵照辦理好 遭案通過23案武力法委員的提案我們跟委員溝通作文字修正委員已經簽名了水利署嗎對改組決議"},{"start":22417.315,"end":22420.997,"text":"好 那修正通過24案水利署 專案通過25案25案是經濟部來 專案通過 26案"},{"start":22444.222,"end":22457.896,"text":"二十六案交通部跟吳立華委員有溝通過所以改組決議文字也稍作修正委員有簽名了嗎來"},{"start":22461.945,"end":22477.075,"text":"跟委員辦公室的執行長有說明過了有說明過了是有確定是確定那是改組決議然後文字有做修正好那改組決議修正後通過對來第27案"},{"start":22483.461,"end":22509.821,"text":"27案有跟文字修正委員有簽字修正通過來28案28號遵照辦理責任通過29案也是一樣跟吳立華委員辦公室的主任大概有談過了他也同意是改組決議然後文字做修正改組決議修正後通過"},{"start":22511.619,"end":22539.443,"text":"三十案三十案是農業部的遵照辦理好 專案通過第三十一案也是農業部的遵照辦理好 專案通過三十二案衛福部三十案衛福部遵照辦理好 專案通過主席 對不起三十二案的部分因為這是第一次有這樣的經驗所以我們很期待能夠有好的一個成果出現所以希望能夠至少上個半年左右可以讓我們有"},{"start":22540.403,"end":22555.892,"text":"機會去看到這樣的成果那半年再回覆王委員33案也是衛福部 照案通過34案 照案通過35案環境部 照案通過36案"},{"start":22571.199,"end":22591.299,"text":"我有同意了36案有文字修正那提案委員已經簽名了修正後通過那就結束了 謝謝委員就是要留幾個那我們兩位委員留下來謝謝所有與會的官員"},{"start":22597.349,"end":22609.137,"text":"有需求我們會有意上去啦,沒關係啦這是我們第一次辦,辦得好以後再進行一樣的"},{"start":22616.079,"end":22641.21,"text":"不是 它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別它偏偏跟原鄉還是有差別"},{"start":22644.192,"end":22668.195,"text":"好协商完成请议事人员宣读协商结论宣读特别预算案协商结论第一案修正通过改为主决议第二案修正通过改为主决议第三案第四案照案通过第五案修正通过第六案照案通过第七案第八案第九案修正通过"},{"start":22668.976,"end":22684.547,"text":"第十案 十一案照案通過第十二案 十三案修正通過改為主決議第十四案照案通過第十五案修正通過第十六案 十七案照案通過第十八案修正通過"},{"start":22686.246,"end":22711.907,"text":"第18案修正通過第19案 20案 21案 22案照案通過第23案修正通過改為主決議第24案照案通過第25案照案通過第26案修正通過改為主決議第27案修正通過第28案照案通過第29案修正通過改為主決議"},{"start":22712.868,"end":22727.261,"text":"第30案、31案、32案、33案、34案、35案均照案通過第36案修正通過宣讀完畢請問各位委員對協商結論有無異議沒有異議就通過"},{"start":22741.206,"end":22762.906,"text":"本次会议做如下决议一说明及询答完毕二委员质询未及答复或请补充资讯请相关部会于一周内以书面答复委员另要求期限者从其锁定三委员陈昭志黄珊珊苏清泉黄建斌邱振军张家俊陈素月蔡奇昌邱益颖王美惠傅坤琪陈玉珍罗明才"},{"start":22763.466,"end":22769.192,"text":"4.審查中央政府花蓮馬太安溪煙色湖災後重建特別預算案114年度至119年度,除照協商結論通過外,取均照列。"},{"start":22785.41,"end":22798.729,"text":"令债务之举借随从协商结论减列数调整税数正式别预算随从以上机关别审查结果调整请问各位委员对以上决议有无异议没有通过"},{"start":22800.233,"end":22828.702,"text":"中央政府花蓮馬太安溪煙色湖災後重建特別預算案114年度至119年度審查文據擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議沒有好 通過6 本次聯席會議議事錄授權由本席核定後確定請問各位委員有無異議沒有通過"},{"start":22829.542,"end":22837.128,"text":"本次會議議程已進行完畢還有不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會 謝謝"},{"start":22866.582,"end":22866.602,"text":"是"}]}},{"id":"17049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17049","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d0f0f97671e11b2e1f94ba6c9883ad213914d0d15f34b2c024dd53b60426cbe8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍心理衛生制度實施後之影響探討、心理求助樣態原因分析及策進作為」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-19T08:37:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-19T12:11:00+08:00","duration":12825,"影片長度":"03:33:45","委員發言時間":"08:37:15 - 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各位委員先進今天應邀至外交及國防委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員長期對於國軍心理衛生工作的關切與支持在此表達誠摯敬意與謝忱官兵監護保家衛國的使命身心健康攸關部隊穩定與戰力的關鍵"},{"start":1905.584,"end":1931.123,"text":"為維護官兵身心鬍子與部隊整體運作國防部積極推展心理衛生工作建構全方位心理健康支持體系接續由本部政治專案局局長史樹仁中將就國軍心理衛生制度實施後製影響探討心理求助樣態原因分析及策進作為向各位委員提出專案報告謝謝"},{"start":1941.321,"end":1955,"text":"國軍心理衛生制度實施後之影響探討心理求助樣態原因分析及測定作為專題報告依前言自2014年起世界衛生組織將自殺列為全球公共衛生優先事項"},{"start":1956.661,"end":1984.441,"text":"心理健康议题越受国际与社会大众重视据卫生福利部统计资料指出国人113年初死亡率每10万人口为17.4人达近10年新高显见自杀防治工作日趋严峻国军为社会缩影在防治工作上也面临相同挑战然在各级干部共同努力下国军自杀趋势较去年同期已有缓降"},{"start":1985.7,"end":2000.761,"text":"國防部將持續推動心理衛生工作積極協助官兵適應部隊狀況適應環境培養良好人際關係完善支持網絡促進部隊團結合作以堅實國軍戰力而國軍心理衛生制度執行情形"},{"start":2002.152,"end":2015.002,"text":"國軍心理衛生機制是依照初級發掘預防二級介入輔導三級專業處遇的三級防處為架構明確律定各級單位權責以及工作流程並鏈接民間及醫療等輔導資源形成資源網絡"},{"start":2018.925,"end":2040.965,"text":"同时透过教育训练与辅导转介等做法提升官兵心理卫生观念及生活适应能力舒缓个人心理困扰及部队适应情形透过心理辅导及协助转介医疗引导国军官兵正向思考消弥浅存问题相关说明如后一 心理卫生制度与成效"},{"start":2042.586,"end":2062.874,"text":"1初級發掘預防由班牌聯營及基層領導幹部負責第一線的工作藉教育推廣生活觀察量表施策與家屬聯繫等作為及早發掘需協助對象主動陪伴關懷114年迄今發掘具心理困擾官兵計7749人均及時提供關懷務談"},{"start":2067.156,"end":2071.965,"text":"經評估聚關風險個案轉介旅籍以上的新衛中心由新府人員進行輔導"},{"start":2074.09,"end":2102.169,"text":"官部二级介入辅导由旅籍以上新卫中心新辅人员负责受理转介个案或个别求助官兵并透由心理卫生宣教干部教育咨询与实务工作扶防等方式支援各级单位的新辅工作一百一十四年迄今执行个别团体辅导心理卫生教育心理评量工具施测等工作即三十八万九千四百二十七人次照顾官兵心理健康"},{"start":2103.79,"end":2129.001,"text":"3 三級專業儲育由國軍醫院的身心科醫師及桃園、台中、高雄、花蓮地區心理衛生中心具證照的心腑人員,針對基層部隊或旅籍以上行為中心轉介個案,提供精神醫療與心理諮商,並協助安置急性個案住院,發揮醫療與心理重建的功能。2 心理健康照護方案"},{"start":2130.731,"end":2148.438,"text":"一為促使官兵勇於求助本部以各自保護無需轉介主動求助為核心策略自114年2月13日起推行國軍心理健康照護方案與328所的民間諮商輔導機構合作每人每年補助6次輔導費用每次1600元40分鐘"},{"start":2153.103,"end":2168.224,"text":"二 其十月三十一日子使用方案官兵即有四千八百六十人次自主預約比例為百分之九十七顯示重視各自保護的照護措施官兵無需透過幹部轉介即可預約大幅降低使用的門檻"},{"start":2168.945,"end":2184.997,"text":"增加主動求助意願有效協助官兵解決心理困擾合作機構在提供服務期間如果評估官兵具有自殺的企圖或是高風險的時候將及時通知地區心理衛生中心介入協處與確保官兵的安全"},{"start":2185.757,"end":2210.927,"text":"三 年度体检心理健康检查自113年7月1日起结合每年定期体检时机军医局设置心理健康检查专区由身心科医师 心理师及社工师针对官兵实施检视健康量表的审视及访谈114年计筛率873元据风险人员均由各级干部或新府人员纳管辅导"},{"start":2212.586,"end":2231.769,"text":"四 強化防處的智能教育劃五一 專案巡迴宣教配合軍風紀專案巡迴宣教以國軍心理衛生工作提醒事項為重點針對一年級以上主管及士官督導長等人授課以實務案例方式宣講精進基層輔導實務工作及強化幹部發掘維安應處能力統計114年共計辦理實務場次3960人次參加"},{"start":2241.071,"end":2266.522,"text":"掛物二 辦理自殺防治巡迴宣教為提升自殺防治效能增進官兵心理健康由國軍自殺防治中心編組國軍醫院身心科醫師實施宣教以自殺防治認識精神疾病及壓力調適等主題赴各單位實施巡迴宣教建立官兵自我覺察及自助助人正確心理衛生觀念增進官兵心理健康114年共執行75場次"},{"start":2270.044,"end":2270.649,"text":"79人次參加"},{"start":2272.406,"end":2301.322,"text":"三 心理求助样态的原意分析114年国军官兵求助样态经分析其原因包括身心健康 环境适应行为偏差 家庭因素 经济因素及感情因素等另进一步以单位类型及阶级分析以心训单位较为显著且其中以二兵居多 少中尉次之显见心境或年资较浅的人员确实较具心理照顾需求也是我们辅导关怀的重点"},{"start":2302.162,"end":2318.275,"text":"四 策進作為為精進國軍輔導工作滿足官兵心理需求嚴提下列策進作為如次一 精進心理健康照護方案為確保諮商服務品質除由各地區新衛中心針對合作機構實施集合之外"},{"start":2319.696,"end":2347.068,"text":"115年將委請第三方專業單位例如中華民國諮商心理師公會全聯會中華民國社會工作師公會全聯會台灣輔導與諮商學會透過客觀專業的立場協助評估方案執行效益作為未來方案改善及策進的依據二 擴大服務資源主動鏈接衛生服務部 福利部協助提供合法立案輔導機構由本部爭取增加合作數量"},{"start":2347.728,"end":2360.85,"text":"另外 協助媒合民間輔導機構赴外離島與新訓單位提供駐點服務導入專業輔導能量以提升官兵諮商便捷性完善多元輔導管道三 提升新輔專業能量"},{"start":2363.215,"end":2389.054,"text":"關五一 輔導新輔人員取得專業證照國軍新輔人員是心理衛生工作的關鍵角色本部持續輔導取得專業證照並配合每年國家考試時間策辦諮商心理及社會工作室證照研習班統計今年度已經有31位順利考取證照關五二 引進具國家證照新輔人力因應官兵心理健康需求日益增加"},{"start":2390.994,"end":2410.586,"text":"為快速補充基層部隊新輔量能114年招聘民間具心理或社工師國家證照人員24元目前已禁用18元115年規劃再招聘20元以充實國軍專業輔導能量照顧官兵心理健康需求四 強化鏈結外部專業領域"},{"start":2412.608,"end":2437.55,"text":"積極參與衛福部自殺防治諮詢會議及國軍自殺防治中心聯繫會議並由國防部定期邀集衛福部心理健康司、台灣自殺防治學會、諮商心理師及社會師公會等單位專家共同檢視國軍心理衛生工作藉專業討論與經驗交流確保各項政策措施符合專業標準以健全官兵心理輔導支持機制"},{"start":2439.458,"end":2465.256,"text":"感謝大院對國軍心理衛生工作的支持與指導因應官兵多樣化的心理需求本部將持續精進透遊鏈結民間資源強化三級防處機制及推動多元心理衛生教育等作為必使官兵照顧與心理輔導工作更增周延營造健康與支持性的服役環境穩定部隊整體戰力以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2472.352,"end":2487.652,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2499.565,"end":2510.606,"text":"羅遠"},{"start":2511.395,"end":2537.582,"text":"部長好 部長有關國軍心理衛生制度跟如何減少國軍智商的這一題其實在去年6月的時候本席也曾經跟部長做過議題的探討雖然說我們一直都有三級的防處機制可是我們卻發現有超過八成的智商事件未在初級發掘預防這個階段就被及時的發現也許是因為個案它的壓力本身"},{"start":2537.762,"end":2552.619,"text":"就是來自於上級或者是說他根本就不信任這個機制所以我們發現有些很遺憾的事情就發生了他就用智商的方式來做解決我也記得上次我們也曾經討論過軍中心腹人員跟專業證照不足的問題"},{"start":2556.844,"end":2576.988,"text":"那我也曾經有要求就是說國防部呢要引進一些民間的這個專業的這個機構來做這個合作那我從今天的報告呢真的有看到國防部呢有做檢討跟做這個改善那國防部呢今年初有啟動的心理健康照護照護方案那我剛才看報告有提到就是說有跟國內328"},{"start":2579.569,"end":2594.75,"text":"所的民間諮商輔導機構來做合作每個人每年有六次每次40分鐘然後這都可以自行去預約也不需要轉介然後也強調不插健保卡不留就醫記錄確保私密"},{"start":2597.733,"end":2612.039,"text":"再來我們有看到身心調適假也是在今年11月也入法了就是說我們的軍官士官志願役的士兵每一年有三天的身心調適假我想請問一下就是說這328所的民間諮詢輔導機構都是衛福部"},{"start":2617.741,"end":2646.469,"text":"來做引介的嗎 是嗎我所了解是說全國有600多家那我們選擇了328所民間的諮商輔導機構來做合作這個是衛福部引介的委員好 我是政戰局局長600多家我們都由各地區的行為中心特別發函跟打電話來源都是這600多家也都是從衛福部所提供的名單裡面去尋找"},{"start":2647.877,"end":2674.15,"text":"所以就是說每一家六百多家我們都有去函就是跟他們說是不是要尋求這個合作然後目前有意願的是三百二十八家是的那我想了解就是說因為我們的軍中有軍中的特有的文化那當然還有一些勤務這些訓練壓力等等這些我不曉得很清楚這些三百二十八家對於軍中的文化等等對於我們的整個"},{"start":2676.471,"end":2699.876,"text":"單位的這個了不了解因為畢竟軍中它在我們在過去的話軍中有軍中的特有文化這個壓力可能不是一般跟民眾可能是所面臨的這個壓力可能這個不是那麼的一樣那這些328所的民間諮詢單位它到底對軍中了不了解 請問"},{"start":2701.778,"end":2727.246,"text":"委員這個指教也是相當精確就是說一般在民間的這些我們的合作機構他通常會對感情因素經濟因素或者是家庭因素這些都會比較熟悉那如果是屬於他這個環境適應因素或者是訓練給他帶來的一些壓力等等所以"},{"start":2728.626,"end":2737.713,"text":"也許他對這方面軍中的這個事務並不是那麼的熟悉所以我們現在有在規劃我們要跟他們進行一個交流就是說"},{"start":2739.481,"end":2760.657,"text":"他們本來講說要做一些教育訓練我說這個應該不叫教育訓練應該是做一個交流就是說我們應該要應該會明年就會來開始進行然後我們會來分北中南東四個地區然後分別跟這些機構來進行交流讓他們來"},{"start":2762.891,"end":2778.263,"text":"比較充分的理解軍中的這種環境軍中的組織 軍中的訓練因為我有看到就是說我們國軍有邀請這相關的民間單位可能來給我們的這些軍官 可能這些"},{"start":2779.624,"end":2792.378,"text":"新府人員等等來上一些課程可是我覺得在這之前我反而覺得這328所的民間諮商機構更是要先來了解我們金鐘的整個結構"},{"start":2794.06,"end":2812.088,"text":"我是覺得這樣子的輔導才能夠到位啦這是我所看到當然部長剛剛也有提到了我們不是叫他們來上課我們要先來做一個交流我想說這是應該要先做互相的了解我覺得這個是一個基本要做的事情"},{"start":2813.168,"end":2839.753,"text":"對 這些民間的合作機構能夠更了解軍動的文化環境那這個整體的服務品質我想就能夠提升是 OK那部長也有發現到這個問題因為我在看這個報告的時候我想說怎麼沒有讓他們先來了解我們軍動到底是一個怎麼樣的文化結構OK 好那再來還有一點就是說我們有提到說那等於是說我們現在是用雙軌的一個方式如果你不想"},{"start":2841.494,"end":2861.353,"text":"經過這個三級防處機制的這個國軍你可以尋求這個心理健康照顧方案嘛 對不對那我們一再強調就是說要確保這個國軍的這個私密因為他提到就是說不插健保卡不留就醫記錄就是要保密嘛"},{"start":2861.773,"end":2889.822,"text":"那類似這樣子的話我們如何在保密的前提之下同時不影響高風險個案的單位在單位裡面的追蹤那當然我有看到就是說你們好像也會經過一個比如說有高風險的會通知這個地區心理衛生中心介入協處那如果這樣子的話這個如果有高風險的這個個案的話也會通報我們國防部嗎會是這樣子嗎我們的做法就是說"},{"start":2890.942,"end":2912.559,"text":"我們當然核心還是各自保護那無需轉介然後希望能夠主動求助但是如果合作的機構評估他是有具有自殺意圖或高風險的時候他轉介到是轉介到我們的地區衛生中心我們的地區衛生中心就是設在應該是幾個北中南東的醫院裡面四個醫院裡面的"},{"start":2915.241,"end":2934.879,"text":"這個辛苦人 因為他們是有證照的是這屬於三級的這部分的專業處於所以或者是到醫院的身心科身心科那或者是這個到這個由這個具有證照的辛苦人員來針對這些人來做一個精神醫療跟心理治療這個監獄局可能在"},{"start":2936.056,"end":2957.012,"text":"要做補充如果說在民間的機構他認為有需要進一步的輔導或者甚至治療他可以轉到我們醫院的地區行為中心那裡面有心服官有社公司可以協助那如果地區行為中心覺得他需要疾病治療"},{"start":2959.334,"end":2976.972,"text":"轉接到我們的精神科那該門診就門診該住院就住院可是那軍中會接到通報就是說這個人其實他有高風險也是在單位裡面也要特別注意還是說對於他的這個介入只到這個地區心理衛生中心而已"},{"start":2978.112,"end":2998.56,"text":"第七心理卫生中心处理以后看他需不需要转介给精神科医师不管需不需要转介跟他的单位的心腹单位都会保持联系都会保持联系所以会从他的第一级到第二级旅籍到心卫中心到精神科这个都是会联系的而且都会在保密的状况之下"},{"start":2998.84,"end":3013.688,"text":"OK 好了解OK 那再來還有一點就是說我有看到就是說每人每年是六次根據本席所了解就是說像智商剛開始的這個第一個月幾乎每個禮拜固定都要去面談"},{"start":3014.608,"end":3034.504,"text":"因為這是要建立彼此之間的這個信任所以才想了解這個案主的這個狀況等等所以他對這個的話當然也有我們有在想說是不是在這個前期的時候我們會增加免費諮商的這個次數因為我們看是一年只有六次這個一年要幾次這個部分我們最先開始是參照那個衛福部他有一個"},{"start":3045.841,"end":3050.256,"text":"心理健康支持方案嘛它是提供三次那我們"},{"start":3051.876,"end":3075.131,"text":"今年的2月開始實施的時候就是提供6次那這個部分要幾次這個部分我想我們可以來再跟專家學者來研議來再行評估這個有沒有提高的可能性因為這個當上路可以理解是要看看說後面如果需要因為衛福部那邊我們也會跟他們再商量一下"},{"start":3075.751,"end":3104.19,"text":"OK 好當然剛剛一開始部長就有提到就是說官兵是捐付保家衛國的這個使命所以身心健康是需要穩定這當然也是站立的這個關鍵當然是說這個議題從過去到現在我們討論了很多當然我也看到了國防部確確實實這一年來確實有在做一些檢討跟改善那真的是我們希望能夠建立一個全方位的心理健康支持的這個體系OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":3110.13,"end":3115.312,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長是 林委員好"},{"start":3136.877,"end":3161.113,"text":"部長早最近這幾天中國解放軍對外的動作非常多首先是上週六發動了聯合戰備的警訊派出了大批的軍機艦故意騷擾我們台灣周圍的海空域然後前天禮拜一到今天又在黃海進行海空實彈的軍演那請問部長那國防部判斷中共最近這兩次進行軍事行動的目的是什麼"},{"start":3161.833,"end":3164.275,"text":"是為了回應美國對台灣軍售的表達抗議嗎還是為了應對美國日本和菲律賓和南海的共同軍演還是為了回應日本高市早苗的首相最近談判的台灣有事的這個整個的言論呢"},{"start":3179.655,"end":3204.025,"text":"聯合戰備警巡我們都會充分明確掌握他的相關的一些實施的狀況那現在當然判斷還是一個週期性的一個聯合戰備警巡的一些作為那面對這樣的共軍的派遣軍機艦在逼近我們的固有的領土這樣國軍有沒有什麼進行跟監反制還是有沒有什麼比較積極的作為"},{"start":3205.495,"end":3224.924,"text":"您說跟針對他們的聯合戰備警訊嗎我們都會依照我們的這個突發狀況處置規定來及時應處然後是這個他們的這個真火的威脅程度我們會來看怎麼樣子部署相關的兵火力來應處威脅"},{"start":3227.523,"end":3254.523,"text":"我想細節的部分可能不太適宜來做一個公開的討論但是我們面對這個中國在我們周遭所進行的這些相關的這些沒關係 部長可以答就答如果是機密的方面你就可以斟酌對 我們都會適切的來應酬那再請教部長一個立場性的問題請問我們國防部到底有沒有把釣魚台視為領土呢"},{"start":3255.504,"end":3258.685,"text":"就是因為釣魚台是不是也是在我們的防空識別區裡面那為什麼每次公居在釣魚台周邊在活動的時候我們台灣卻是透過日本防衛省公布的資訊才知道那部長我們國防部現在到底是否會驅離在釣魚台附近的活動的中共軍機艦呢還是根本我們就消極不管還是就是也不敢管還是反正日本的自衛隊會去管會去驅離所以我們就也不理"},{"start":3284.612,"end":3307.517,"text":"我們在我們的應變區內我們都會加以世界的處置那我們有一個應變區的範圍那這個部分它相關不管是在釣魚台周邊的活動或者是進入那個它有些狀況情況之下確實都會進入我們的應變區那我們都會加以來處置所以還是會處理是嗎對 進入應變區我們都會處置"},{"start":3310.342,"end":3323.217,"text":"那從近期的區域的其實發現感覺中國開始刻意對太平洋周章國家都進行干擾並和太平洋周邊的國家發生一些摩擦中國也開始擴大灰色地帶行動的範圍從釣魚"},{"start":3325.84,"end":3329.304,"text":"到南海都有但是對台灣的侵擾是最頻繁的可以請問部長國防部隊針對這些區域的情勢發展還有中國各種對外的侵擾的行動有沒有掌握還是有沒有了解這整個狀況"},{"start":3343.362,"end":3361.244,"text":"我們對整個區域情勢的動態我們都要加以掌握我們都要加以掌握這個區域當然也包括了你講的包括東海的情勢也包括南海的區域情勢當然對台海周邊的區域情勢我們也要全部加以掌握"},{"start":3363.533,"end":3382.984,"text":"那在接下來的話就是再問一下就是最近美國陸軍的部長受訪的時候有爆料說美國的大型國防承包商騙美軍買了超貴的零件這邊報導更具體的提到黑鷹直升機的一個螢幕的旋鈕那在整機採購的時候要價高達47000美元"},{"start":3387.327,"end":3391.648,"text":"我看換成台幣的匯率的話大概是新台幣150萬左右那請問部長我們台灣是否也有向美國採購60架與美軍相同型號的黑鷹直升機呢因為這個型號採用的是玻璃化的座窗可是看起來好像應該也是有螢幕上面的旋鈕那部長當初採購這個是不是我們有採購呢還是我們有沒有"},{"start":3414.096,"end":3437.208,"text":"一些相關的料件就是整個買貴了呢部長有了解嗎我們軍售案在獲得美方提供報價資料跟發料書文件的時候都會有需求當然就是各軍種會運用一些仿商的這個選價的收集報價資料還有歷史的採購比較做一些比對那至於剛剛委員問的比較細節那個部分是不是請陸選來"},{"start":3438.691,"end":3460.197,"text":"简单向委员报告我们的黑鹰的相关的料件是循军售管道那委员所关切这个案子是是美国他们本身自己美国的黑鹰发生的问题那我们虽然是循军售管道但是相关的督管机制包含到联邦政府的责任署还有美国国防部的督察办公室还有其他的省监单位"},{"start":3460.897,"end":3478.348,"text":"也都會協助我們如果我們對這些價格感覺有益的話我們都會反映到這個美國這些上述的管道那目前我們所採購的是有相關的訂單有採購相關的零附件但目前在價格上面並沒有如美軍它本身自己的飛機採購的這個情勢"},{"start":3481.544,"end":3485.887,"text":"所以國防部到底有沒有人力集合和發現我們對美國這些軍事採購是不是有被當鎧子還是有沒有買到比別人貴的軍購你們有去集合過嗎還是只是等到美國政府自己發現了然後我們就後知後覺等待通知"},{"start":3498.456,"end":3511.441,"text":"除了我們國防部自己內部有會去了解之外審計部也都會到我們的軍總也包含到我們的美團去做相關的戰務的了解是否有委員該所述這個情勢"},{"start":3513.015,"end":3525.818,"text":"好那我再問一個問題就是那當初的愛國者飛彈結果是靠美國政府主動發現的像這件事情他告知台灣被多收了新台幣52億那這筆錢後來如何處理了呢美方已經退款了嗎還是不了了之呢您講的是那個雷神的就是52億的全部都退了全部都退回來就對了"},{"start":3540.168,"end":3565.478,"text":"那還是提醒一下部長這前幾天美國才宣布軍售台灣價值新台幣102億的戰機零副料件在美國的安和局的新聞稿中有提到軍售品項包含了非自式的零件這表示裡面有一些特規的零件或者是庫存比較久的零件無論具體是什麼非自式的零件表示美方可能是沒有在使用也就是我們可能會比較難做到比"},{"start":3567.178,"end":3595.998,"text":"所以這邊提醒一下國防部未來可能要緊盯一下這整個軍購的內容絕對是不可以被買貴的請國防部未來一定要謹慎是 鮑委員那個因為我們這個飛機航才的合約它是一個開口式的多年度的合約那各個項目裡面我們除了在接下來智慧國會之後進入預約程序我們會逐項的去檢視之外在它後續交運的時候我們也會透過駐美跟在台接收的兩個管道針對所有"},{"start":3597.26,"end":3604.02,"text":"行財跟其他料件的部分我們會做一個深入的檢視只要有問題我們就會尋管道來更換或是索賠"},{"start":3605.578,"end":3611.003,"text":"好那還有一個問題就是我們針對美軍採購的軍事的採購的方面就是說美國政府在8月時候通過通知韓國政府說決定要取消透過軍售管道採購武器的時候又可以採用非經常性的費用的豁免政策但是美國一旦取消這種不必分攤研發測試的這種"},{"start":3627.879,"end":3633.322,"text":"費用的優惠以後美國採購的整個裝備可能我們要付一筆費用大概是5%左右的費用也就是說其他報導是說日本澳洲還有其他北約成員國都有收到這樣的優惠被取消那請教部長一下我們對美國軍購的時候美國有沒有給我們像日本韓國澳洲這種豁免的優惠呢現在的情況是怎樣"},{"start":3652.282,"end":3668.424,"text":"報告委員軍購的軍品項目的那個研發費用一般而言它都會加在所有產製的項目裡面它是產製的一部分但是針對日韓跟澳洲的部分他們之前有"},{"start":3669.606,"end":3684.603,"text":"針對特定共同研發的品項優惠的那個部分那是另外算一般而言只要屬於通用的項目所有的國家都一體試用我們也沒有收到任何通知我們要被加收研發費這件事情"},{"start":3685.6,"end":3698.851,"text":"所以到現在還沒有沒有 目前我們都是按照正常的走而且我們在每一次的專案管理會議裡面還是會爭取各個項目當它產製數量增加研發攤費必須下修的時候會繼續跟美方做爭取好 謝謝"},{"start":3701.618,"end":3718.658,"text":"好然後接下來的問題就是我知道國軍最近有引進了HRV就是自律神經檢測透過機器輔助的這個方式幫助官兵提早發現一些問題目前HRV目前是旅警單位都有配一台是嗎是這樣嗎那海軍空軍也是這樣嗎"},{"start":3724.042,"end":3751.777,"text":"委員好 我是業管政動組的處長那有關於HRV的佩附的部分我們是在各心理衛生中心都有佩附一台那現在是陸軍有 海軍也有 空軍也都有嗎都有因為我現在就是為什麼會這樣問因為辦公室最近有收到一些新府官的陳情他們說HRV這種透過量化的方式會對及早發現的那個疾病的問題是非常有幫助的但是問題就是說幫一個"},{"start":3753.818,"end":3756.819,"text":"幫一位官兵測試一次他們靜止不動至少要5分鐘120個人測試的時候要花到10個小時如果編制大概4400個人的裝部旅這樣做完大約367個小時這裡面還要加上實際執行的人員一個一個替換的時間還不能保證可以完美的靜止5分鐘所以實際上花的時間可能更久"},{"start":3777.005,"end":3779.988,"text":"所以HRV這個東西既然那麼好用我覺得它也是可以有一些可以馬上及早發現一些問題所以我想身體的疾病是預防勝於治療啦尤其是國軍官兵是要站在第一線保護國家的人所以疾病的預防是非常重要的而且要提早發現"},{"start":3797.145,"end":3814.614,"text":"所以我想透過科學的方式提早發現這個是好的當然治療的成功的機率就會比較提高那是不是國防部有去了解各單位使用的狀況因為現在很多人要使用所以這樣爭奪看是不是增加人員還是是不是有增購協助官兵的進行檢測呢"},{"start":3816.728,"end":3844.284,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為現在HRV包含我們今年已經開始在做這些器材的替換或是用更多人的方式來協助官兵使用HRV所以這部分都還在進行當中那麼我想委員的關心我們回去會納入研究看是要增加HRV的數量或者是採用更先進的一個器材"},{"start":3845.636,"end":3850.64,"text":"因為國軍官兵的健康還是很重要的謝謝好 薛委員謝謝接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":3881.076,"end":3909.105,"text":"沈委員部長好剛好昨天我剛好來之前就在看USCC的美國的報告它有提到就是說中國由演訓直接轉戰的可能性相較於以往更為提高它裡面的理由當然很多除了他們的新的這種兩棲的任務編組的改變之外其中也包含了他們現在對外的宣傳跟對內的宣傳的落差變得越來越大"},{"start":3910.025,"end":3928.559,"text":"再加上最近的國際情勢其實我認為這個當然我們對於風險的評估可能要再更為謹慎那當然今天的題目是在針對這一個新府相關的這一個報告但我覺得前面還是提醒一下就是最近的這一個美國這邊才剛出的一份報告"},{"start":3929.78,"end":3954.888,"text":"接下來就是關於新府這件事情因為我自己是在犯罪學研究所我的學生大部分是警察比較多警察他們常常面臨的一些問題就是因為他有中央跟地方他在地方政府的管轄範圍之內就有很多協辦的業務有時候協辦業務甚至到超過百項所以變成說警察要面對自己的業務的時候時間變得很少他要做很多的協辦"},{"start":3955.928,"end":3980.637,"text":"那照理說在軍中這件事情應該會稍微少一點因為第一個它最主要是一個跟中央有關的業務但我們在這個跟官兵呢在這個討論的這個過程當中呢發現還是會有一些相關的這些協辦的問題比如說呢就是呢這一個我們之前在這一個時空背景這是蠻久以前的事情因為那時候說要採檢嘛那我們說在採檢的時候呢其實我們採檢很多勤務部隊"},{"start":3981.477,"end":3997.477,"text":"那勤務部隊其實在裁剪的過程當中這個衛哨的人力就出現了缺口那有一些比較不機敏的地方這個衛哨還有可能請這一個別人來支援但是比較機敏的時候這個衛哨就變得在同一個營區不同的單位大家要互相支援"},{"start":3998.519,"end":4013.457,"text":"這個時候就會變成說他花在自己戰訓本務的時間就會因而這樣減少所以不知道部長現在針對這一種就是我們的勤務部隊就是不管是說我們的人力要怎麼提升這是一個很大的問題因為我們的邊線本來就有不足的問題"},{"start":4014.632,"end":4034.91,"text":"又或者說我們要怎麼樣去增加它的誘因讓有人願意來做這個勤務部隊這個目前來講整體國軍的規劃是什麼可以讓因為畢竟協辦的業務少支援的事務互相支援的這一個業務少的時候他可以更專注在自己的本務上面這個心理的壓力理論上會比較小一些"},{"start":4037.042,"end":4055.196,"text":"所以委員講的是指營區本身的借戶還是指支援營區這些衛哨等等之類的因為衛哨也是屬於營區借戶的一部分所以這個部分我想作計師他們有一些"},{"start":4057.899,"end":4071.037,"text":"委員好 我是座議事次長針對這個勤務的調整不管是後勤或是警務 警衛的勤務其實部長上任之後就要求我們是以檢法的思維來去考量官兵勤務上的一些負擔的調節跟調整"},{"start":4072.719,"end":4088.685,"text":"那因此針對這個衛照勤務的部分我們已經準備要去針對非經營單位比如說學校國防大學等我們目前已經責定8個單位要來去試行改裁以保全的方式來去擔任所謂的分攤警衛勤務的任務讓"},{"start":4089.865,"end":4115.867,"text":"相應的單位包含機關單位目前準備實驗是陸軍司令部等六個單位來去做檢討跟試行之後再來去擴大到其他相應的單位來減輕官兵的勤務負荷以上報告那非機敏的當然我覺得這個做法這個方向是頗為贊同那機敏的部分當然很難這樣做這是沒有辦法的事情那就是說短期之內就是說這個人力我們不可能就是因為邊線比我們之前在質詢的時候也討論過"},{"start":4117.188,"end":4131.725,"text":"那現在來講就是說不管是增加它多一些誘因比如說它這一個什麼擴大編列這些獎金的部分什麼等等之類的這個或許可以考慮那這個我們在因為這個跟機敏的單位比較有關係那我們"},{"start":4132.225,"end":4150.124,"text":"街道的陳情也比較多是跟基民單位有關那這個我們就是會後我們再來討論但我覺得這個方向可能我們要注意是因為就像剛剛提到的部長上任的時候其實有這個所謂的檢法思維我有把它整理在這邊就是這是2024年6月6號所以已經是超過一年前了"},{"start":4150.784,"end":4176.049,"text":"超過一年前的時候那時候我有把我們任何的這一些有可能可以去減低壓力的去減少行政作業的我都有列出來其實上面的不管是簡化業務還有禁止這種比較灰色的命令等等之類的這其實慢慢都在往這個方向邁進但是我們要確保這一些改革的事項都能夠做到這樣才可以去回應到我們今天的主題就是讓他們的壓力不要那麼的大"},{"start":4176.869,"end":4202.486,"text":"那接下來我想問另外一個就是這個其實是比較久以前的事情了那就是因為是有這一個有人拍抖音結果這一個因為他是在這個影區外所以他的手機可以使用結果他拍了這個抖音的影片上傳之後當然就是被處罰了那被處罰了之後整個部隊就取消了這一把的榮譽架簡單來講就是有點連坐的概念"},{"start":4203.266,"end":4227.062,"text":"我知道其實過往我在質詢的時候部長其實已經有承諾就是說連坐的這樣的一個做法不需要再出現當時 但是當時其實國防部也有回應到就是說這個榮譽架它本身就是一個獎勵的性質所以獎勵的性質拿回來它不算是一個懲罰有這樣的一個說法但我還是認為其實對我們 對一般的官兵來講"},{"start":4227.962,"end":4248.956,"text":"這個法律規定對他來講是一個文字遊戲你今天不是因為跟戰訓本務有關的一些事情如果說今天可以輕易的要處罰到其他部隊的人的時候對他來講他的實質上就是一個懲罰所以這個是一陣子以前的事情因為我們之前在看這個國防大學相關調查的時候"},{"start":4249.776,"end":4264.791,"text":"只要問到連坐問到一起被處罰這件事情即使現在已經開始減少了已經不再往這個方向去做懲戒了但是官兵還是會擔心就那個擔心的比例還是很高那針對這件事情目前觀光部有什麼作為"},{"start":4267.354,"end":4276.882,"text":"鮑委員我要藉著這個機會向您報告和澄清一下的確在去年妖洞酒旅有發生這個比較久以前有發生這樣的事情那也如委員說的事實上所謂的妖八榮譽我們國軍的休假還是從這個假期當日早上開始那妖八是獎勵性子那事實上國防部也明令已經取消所謂的連坐法這件事情"},{"start":4289.853,"end":4310.289,"text":"那在这个案子里面当中的确有发生数名士兵跟对这个下士斗殴的情形但是事实上我们经过了查证从司令部军团一直到旅籍的查证事实上并不是因为有实施连坐法这件事情而是官兵有那个证信我有看过的一些误解"},{"start":4310.729,"end":4327.972,"text":"那相關鬥烏的官兵也都依照這個規定也含送法辦以上報告對所以這個就是說當然那個當時這個陸軍那個澄清報告我有看過那但是就是說我們在問的當下大家都是就是說這個就是還是因為這個的原因等等之類這個沒有關係"},{"start":4329.113,"end":4351.849,"text":"但因為我覺得調查本身不管是他們的反應他們的滿意度這個不太能騙人對不對所以當他們有這樣擔心的時候就表示有可能可能不是在我們這一邊這一個指揮的長官但是下面的人有時候可能不管是揣摩上意又或者說他可能要達到特定的目的所以他可能還是做了相關的措施所以這一個可能還是要因為"},{"start":4352.489,"end":4375.614,"text":"有沒有灰色命令這件事情或者說有沒有連坐這件事情會影響到士氣這件事情我們就是我們要固定的就好像我們勞動部會有勞檢一樣就是我們要固定的要去查就是是否有這樣的情形發生讓下面的意見能夠傳達上來這樣才可以維持整個軍隊的士氣這個接下來我想問一下這個其實也是"},{"start":4376.587,"end":4402.256,"text":"也是一陣子以前的事情就是M1A2T這個我當時在這邊也是聽到很多人對那個T很有意見說這個台灣什麼之類那時候部長其實有都回應到但那時候我在這一個不知道他是反串還是說這一個假帳號還是說真的是這樣子他在這邊他有去抱怨說這一個司令部中正堂改成這個忠誠堂"},{"start":4403.876,"end":4425.947,"text":"我會覺得這件事情有點奇怪就是說我們軍隊效忠的應該是中華民國這個國家我們軍隊沒有在效忠蔣中正蔣中正怎麼會是軍隊在效忠的對象所以如果說我們今天在國家裡面我們把軍隊的忠誠把它跟國家連結在一起這照理說應該是好事一件才對"},{"start":4427.108,"end":4445.568,"text":"但是如果這個意見是真的這個會讓我有點擔心就是說等於是我們用意識形態去凌駕了這一個國家本身的這個認同國家本身的這個定位但我先不管因為它有可能是假的有可能就是反串的或什麼之類但我希望像這樣的一個聲音"},{"start":4446.149,"end":4474.939,"text":"如果今天在軍隊裡面有真的這樣的一個討論的時候是不是可以藉由不管是在舉光的時候等等時候其實要告訴我們的國軍我們認同的是中華民國這個國家我們要保護的是國家我們要保護的不是個人這件事情可能還是我覺得是當然我們講了很多剛剛講的不管是軍人的壓力我們希望他們有一些加急這些是最軍人的照顧但是對於國家的忠誠義務我認為這件事情還是非常的重要好 那這個"},{"start":4476.683,"end":4501.524,"text":"最後一點因為我看時間快不夠了就是這一個我們的駐外人員因為這一次我們的情報次長是穿著軍服去出席我們的華沙安全論壇我有詢問了幾位這種就是長期有來參加這個安全地位的就發現他們都說當時就是只要有參加類似這樣的會議雖然效果在一開始可能並不是那麼的顯著"},{"start":4502.205,"end":4530.206,"text":"但只要過一段時間之後那個時候能夠拉起來的線還有那時候能夠有的討論對我們的國防幫助非常的大所以我就因為我們的國際地位真的比較特殊就很多國家不承認我們對不對所以我們在參與這些會議的時候多少都會遇到一些阻礙所以目前我們現行的這一個就是駐外武官的一些不管是選拔的條件還有我們的人員夠不夠是不是能有更多像這樣子的一些交流"},{"start":4531.932,"end":4547.74,"text":"您是說選拔五官的條件還是指說更多的這種多邊或雙邊的軍事交流對 更多的交流當然是一個其實這個條件我之前其實有特別提過就是說其實我們可以有更多更多元的人才"},{"start":4548.4,"end":4562.881,"text":"然後比如說我們的性別等等之類的在這一個方面其實我們的女性是比較少的這個是我在之前的質詢問過那這一個我現在想問的就是說現在有沒有可能有更多這樣的交流我們更多的人才可以往這個方向前進"},{"start":4563.992,"end":4584.198,"text":"我想我們都會再鼓勵這樣子的一個多參與相關的這些交流的這些活動這個是一定的因為我現在是怕說我們的人是不太夠用的因為我們就像我剛剛前面講到的我們現在部隊裡面其實人就是不太夠用但其實我們現在對外這種需求是變得比以前更多了"},{"start":4584.858,"end":4605.141,"text":"所以我們現在因為以往我們在對外的時候很多都是外交部的人員什麼等等之類但我們現在我們穿著軍服來參加這個這個意義其實是非常的重大而且它所得交流的品質它所得到的成果是非常的好但我們國內的人就已經不太夠了如果送到國外的人又會吃緊那我們應該要如何是好最主要是想問這一點"},{"start":4605.922,"end":4633.45,"text":"所以我知道委員意思就是說我們因為要推展這樣子的交流我們需要培育更多的這些人才我想這個是我們一直不斷包括我們跟其他的美國或者的軍事現象進行這些交換或者是我們不斷的派駐相關的這些武官或者是我們的軍學人員到當地然後不斷的進修然後來取得對於這個當地國的"},{"start":4636.311,"end":4656.104,"text":"能夠以當地國的語言來進行這樣的一個交流不管是哪一國的我想這個都是我們要再多努力的方向如果人員能夠增加這樣應該是最好的謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝沈伯陽委員的質詢下面請馬文君委員"},{"start":4665.928,"end":4666.471,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":4675.207,"end":4696.239,"text":"部長早部長就我們今天的主題報告有指出官兵求助的樣態分析大概有六項第一個大概就是環境適應 身心健康 家庭因素 行為偏差經濟因素還有感情因素等等我想請教一下哪一個是最嚴重的我們經過統計"},{"start":4704.026,"end":4731.472,"text":"您來回答一下目前經過統計身心健康跟環境的適應這兩項是數量比較多的所謂身心健康是指其實最主要就是他在環境上面的適應所以我們這一次在分析交叉分析的時候特別是針對新兵跟少衛中衛他說顯示出來需要求助的是比較多的"},{"start":4732.162,"end":4753.892,"text":"他求助比较多的原因是什么因为我们看到这样的报告的结果我们会认为我们把所有的很多的结果从而又推到基层单位去了你像这样子新训的二兵中少卫这样的人数居多这样子的一个结果你们有什么看法"},{"start":4755.149,"end":4769.525,"text":"報告委員所以我們在新兵一進到部隊之後的第一個禮拜我們就會替他做身心狀況評量表那這個身心狀況評量表的目的就是在於篩檢出兩個重點一個是"},{"start":4770.966,"end":4782.496,"text":"我們要的不是憑良表因為你我現在說的是你已經去求助這些可能在心理師社工師或者我們我們像委外的或心腹師這樣子的一個心腹官這樣的一個對象我們現在要的你說環境適應跟身心健康這兩個是比較多的"},{"start":4792.304,"end":4799.035,"text":"剛剛因為我們聽到其他委員在講的時候你既不插卡也不留記錄是確保私密的可是你做出這樣的結論那他的結論可以做什麼樣的精進作為"},{"start":4803.499,"end":4809.983,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛沒有弄錯方向您如果提的是心理衛生照護心理健康照護方案的話因為他的原則就是在針對一個人就是不去插卡就是說不用去求他自己去求助我知道所以我們說你做這樣因為官兵去求助的這樣樣態的分析你們認為這樣子的結果我們可以有什麼樣精進的作為因為你不是增加預算而已"},{"start":4832.573,"end":4852.398,"text":"報委員那個如果是心理照護方案他是主動對外求助的這個部分他如果不是高風險或者是有特殊狀況的我們是不會要求他來通報我們只有去針對這幾個部分他需要立即協助的我們沒有要求他們一定要通報我們現在說的是我們編出這樣的預算"},{"start":4854.358,"end":4860.4,"text":"不然你就給那個衛福部去編就好了在全民健保編就好了因為現在全民大概都有這樣的狀況今天如果有我們國防部編列這樣的預算對於我們的軍事官兵他的身心健康我們是非常重視我們也不希望有這樣子的狀況持續的發生所以我們才編這樣的預算那這樣的預算你可以有什麼樣精進改善的作為這才是我們編預算的一個主要的目的啊你剛剛提到的因為"},{"start":4883.689,"end":4899.624,"text":"如果是新兵新訓還有二兵中哨衛居多那有什麼樣的狀況因為你們還是把他推給基層啦這個有很多的面向比如說有沒有長官壓迫有沒有虐待有沒有暴力有沒有不當命令過度操課或不當勤務的安排這個體休假制度的僵化"},{"start":4905.189,"end":4907.511,"text":"這個牽涉到我們所有的領導統一還有我們所有整體的政策還有職場的環境因為有很多家長也會跟我們說原來我們的小孩很乖啊可是進到軍中以後好像學壞了賭博或者其他的習慣好像都來了那像這樣子的狀況"},{"start":4922.483,"end":4930.536,"text":"你有賭博的現象你可能造成他的財務會有重大的缺口因為我們也曾經接到陳情有的父母甚至幫小孩子去償還賭債甚至高達四五百萬到最後就跑路了"},{"start":4936.263,"end":4944.565,"text":"所以這樣的狀況你在他們心理之上我們今天如果說我們編這樣的預算你沒有辦法做一個你只能治標我們把預算編了然後大家就去求助求助以後到底結果怎麼樣可是你卻沒有反過來去做治標的一個根本改善部長這個您有什麼看法我想第一個我們並在做這個樣態分析絕對沒有把它就把它"},{"start":4963.973,"end":4970.723,"text":"規則到基層這樣的概念我們在做這個心理救助樣態的分析的時候只是在說明它的"},{"start":4972.318,"end":4997.009,"text":"因為你的題目有這個所以我們做一個太陽的分析然後另外進一步說哪一些單位的類型跟階級會比較多只是在做一個客觀的說明而已那至於剛剛有提到也許會因為它的環境適應是因為涉及領導統一那這就是成因所以我們要根據這一個現象然後我們再分析說它的原因是什麼所以如果是領導統一有問題的話"},{"start":4998.55,"end":5008.658,"text":"那我想我們相關的單位就要去注意到這個相關的領導統一的問題所以這個部分的分析主要就是在從我們的這個三級的這個房屋的架構出發去分析出來部長 因為我們看到的這樣子的一個三級的一個架構"},{"start":5017.344,"end":5022.768,"text":"去做去分析分析出來沒有用因為他的實質的像這樣的問題還是存在我們要說的是當你在一直增加預算的同時因為我們在第一年因為現在第三年了嘛第一年在從事情"},{"start":5033.635,"end":5045.985,"text":"的60萬然後我們在今年也增加明年又要增加可是我們希望可以好好照顧官士兵的這些身心健康可是這些都是治標我們要的是治本所以今天如果說你把他的樣態產生的原因比較大的因素他應該要去做一個根本的改善就是我們"},{"start":5055.273,"end":5072.444,"text":"制度面我剛剛提到的很多可能發生的原因可能讓他環境的適應是有問題的包括已經做了十幾年的這樣子本來都是默默在承受然後只要上起下打的命令他們都會盡力去執行的"},{"start":5074.725,"end":5090.89,"text":"現在我們也接到很多的陳情他們都待不住了所以就這個部分我們希望除了在增加這種心理諮商的預算以外要根本的去做治本的解決這個部分我們希望現在提供比較詳細的這樣的一個書面資料怎麼樣去做改善像這樣的制度面如果我們還沒有辦法找出問題我想這個花再多錢都沒有用這個部長可不可以認同"},{"start":5104.76,"end":5129.037,"text":"因為我們是在既有的這個三級的這個房屋機制之外剛剛委員問的應該是我們另外在今年做的心理健康照護方案是不是沒有 照護方案那些都沒有關係我們現在說有這麼多軍事官兵他們不斷的有這樣的需求或者需求越來越高我們希望找出一個根本的解決方案他到底是因為什麼樣的因素"},{"start":5129.617,"end":5135.281,"text":"你如果是感情因素個人的什麼其他的家庭因素那個我們比較沒有辦法那是個別的一個因素可是如果他是整個在軍中的環境他讓他產生這樣子的心理壓力然後需要求助心理諮商我想這個我們要從制度面去解決這個部分部長同不同意所以我們才會有既有的我們初期發掘預防就是在於發掘書"},{"start":5157.856,"end":5177.393,"text":"具有心理困擾的人那他可能是因为各种不讲我们不是讨论那你讲的心理健康照顾我们从事情以来我们发现这个成效也不错所以这个是双轨来做那您现在讲的是说要有一个解决的方案对是不是那这个解决的方案就是"},{"start":5178.234,"end":5193.51,"text":"我們要分析他的這個原因然後透過他這個成因然後去加以去理解那這個部分的話剛剛有講到了民間的這一個部分的我們跟民間的這些合作機構會進一步再來讓他理解軍中的這一個訓練軍中的環境"},{"start":5195.993,"end":5220.498,"text":"是如何所以這個民間的活動機構就已經能夠適度的來協助這些那如果是屬於高風險的具有一個高風險那我轉接到地區新衛中心這個是我們現在做的一個方向那既有的初級的發掘預防我們也要宣導讓各這個所有的領導幹部都能夠去做好他的第一線工作那二級的部分部長時間的關係現在您沒有聽清楚我的問題"},{"start":5224.699,"end":5234.801,"text":"我剛剛提到的如果這樣子的人數在增加你的預算不斷增加表示需求量也在增加當中因為其實我們還有很多衛福部也有編這樣的預算我就說你牽涉到領導統一或者職場環境還有如果說我們在裡面有賭博而且甚至是群體性的這個都是根本的治本之道應該要找出方法來解決因為他缺錢"},{"start":5252.225,"end":5275.484,"text":"他被很多黑道或者像可能在最在的時候很多就自殺了所以就這些方面這些面向是我們軍中應該要去做治本解決的這個是我們現在今天提出來特別要求的這個部分我們希望可以提供更詳細的一個資料我們的軍中的環境的管教的環境或者是"},{"start":5279.327,"end":5288.813,"text":"不要製造一些不良的環境給軍中的這些跑者是這個意思因為你的樣態裡面就有環境適應的問題那這個部分環境造成的是我們軍中的一個問題所以這個部分請再做一些比較更詳細更精進的資料因為當你在增加預算的同時你也必須要有解決的方案這個部分我們希望可以後續提供那另外"},{"start":5307.003,"end":5316.092,"text":"環境適應的部分我們當然要去找出他的環境適應的問題然後另外我要請教一下鳳展案現在目前的進度如何電站夾艙現在目前怎麼樣"},{"start":5321.203,"end":5338.229,"text":"副委員 奉展案的夾艙這個部分是因為是要配合我們新式戰機的內置夾艙的一個研發階段他已經執行很久了嘛因為你原來而且你原來的預算因為我們那時候所以到底有沒有確定"},{"start":5339.128,"end":5359.805,"text":"這是確定的 是他不是後來增加鳳展案在電站夾倉的時候這個已經執行很多年了而且他從42億變成12億他把數量都減少了所以後續現在進行的階段今天時間關係提供資料好不好是在會後提供資料另外我要請教部長還有中科院"},{"start":5360.886,"end":5365.828,"text":"如果有廠商不斷的延遲交貨甚至從105年到114年幾乎每年在他應該進度落後的情況之下交貨都延遲而且還發生產品不合格被退貨中科院也把它列為C級廠商C級廠商大概就是不得報價也不得簽約嘛 對不對"},{"start":5384.156,"end":5404.433,"text":"所以如果他還能夠順利的得到標案而且還類似是指定的先從小批量到未來的大量那我們現在為什麼會有這樣的做法委員問的是中科院本身還在問國防部中科院應該知道是什麼案子吧"},{"start":5406.307,"end":5416.714,"text":"如果是被我們列為那個C級的廠商他就不可能參與不可能嘛確定那如果說他不斷的延遲交貨他可以再得標嗎"},{"start":5418.103,"end":5438.587,"text":"尤其是中藥都不行確定嘛好那相關的那個案例我們會後再討論如果真的有發生這樣的狀況要立即處理不管是中科院或者國防部而且甚至還有降規的情形就更不可原諒他不斷的延遲交貨而且甚至還是積極廠商而且我們還降規去符合這樣的需求這個就不可原諒再次提醒"},{"start":5445.248,"end":5449.61,"text":"那再一次利用一點點時間要請教部長而且我們也希望它不可以再發生因為我們接到陳情就是我們有一些中部的這些年輕人他們這一次年齡大概都21到28歲他們去接受教招的時候我們在過程當中有要求他們要填寫問答這個部分是常態嗎"},{"start":5476.857,"end":5479.424,"text":"填寫問卷這是常態嗎教召填寫問卷委員講的是什麼樣子的問卷"},{"start":5488.936,"end":5493.639,"text":"我唸幾個給部長聽 他們就是說進去的時候請他們掃QR code雖然說這是匿名作打 可是大家一開始可能也是配合也開心的作打 可是進到作打的題目裡面的時候他覺得是非常離譜 而且浪費納稅人的錢"},{"start":5508.807,"end":5512.049,"text":"第一個他們問到說政府施政滿意度是怎麼樣施政團隊大家感覺到滿意嗎還有美國以色列的國防GDP預算跟台灣來比較你覺得台灣國防預算GDP佔3.12是合理的嗎如果跟美國以色列比較這個預算會不會太少題目還有說"},{"start":5534.278,"end":5552.311,"text":"你覺得台灣這樣的國防預算跟對岸的國防預算比較差距是好幾倍你覺得我們應該要再增加嗎這樣預算是對等的嗎類似這樣的題目非常多還有題目說台灣自治的潛水艇叫什麼名字他卻沒有問說"},{"start":5553.692,"end":5554.832,"text":"潛艦花了多少錢這是他們在陳情的內容裡面可能提到的今天他們覺得這樣的提問是在製造戰爭的恐慌然後也沒有中立感因為其實"},{"start":5569.878,"end":5572.601,"text":"我們所有的不管是後備軍人不管是現役軍人其實大家都對國家忠誠可是當你的問卷牽涉到這樣子的一個政黨或政治的這樣的一個敏感的問題這是適當嗎"},{"start":5587.072,"end":5602.109,"text":"委員好我是選動署署長謝謝委員的指導但是據我所知我們在叫招的過程不會找QR code做這些問題那如果有呢那請等一下委員你把相關的資料提供給我我們會徹底的來查證這個事實"},{"start":5603.63,"end":5618.742,"text":"因為我們的教召課程14天裡面沒有做這個問卷只有請教召員他自己去評估這一次教召的過程當中的課程對他來講是有精進的地方來做這個提升後備戰力來做的作為"},{"start":5621.724,"end":5642.226,"text":"所以剛好我問說是不是常態那如果不是常態不是可能固定的他可能是有特殊的這樣的需求可是有特殊的需求針對這樣的對象尤其在叫招的過程當中你提出這樣的問卷的內容都非常不恰當所以這個部分請了解以後再做一些相關的一個回覆"},{"start":5644.528,"end":5670.604,"text":"報告委員我這裡必須要很慎重的跟委員報告國軍永遠會保持行政中立國軍永遠是保護中華民國2300萬百姓安全福祉我們希望是這樣當你在過程當中有瑕疵的時候就要是去改善我們現在提出來就是瑕疵我們相信軍人我們也相信我們中華民國的國軍可是我們更不希望政策去做錯誤的引導謝謝"},{"start":5673.968,"end":5699.303,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員下面請林柱英委員發言謝謝主席主席有請顧部長有請顧部長那麼其他如果列席的官員需要補充就請自行上台林委員"},{"start":5703.49,"end":5727.539,"text":"部長一個最新的訊息我想今天大概全民都已經知道就是我手上這一本當危機來臨時台灣全民安全指引這一本會開始做發放那麼我想這幾天我們也看到了陸續針對這一本的發放跟預算的使用那麼在野黨有提出質疑首先我先問部長這一本的內容"},{"start":5728.379,"end":5741.418,"text":"跟這一本的製作台灣是首例嗎其他國家有沒有這樣子類似的全民安全主義當然不是因為在整個這個研討的過程中其實花了相當多的時間我們陸續參考很多國家"},{"start":5744.242,"end":5765.168,"text":"特別是很多歐洲的國家包括像瑞典、芬蘭、我想還有愛沙尼亞捷克等等的這些都有在做所以我們過去的版跟現在這一版差很多差非常多主要就是在於參照這些國家"},{"start":5766.708,"end":5781.723,"text":"來提供這個全民在面對這些重大災難或者是緊急狀況的時候一個安全指引我想這個是花了很多時間討論好 我想提出質疑的委員可能他們手上還沒拿過或者是只看了封面沒有看了內容"},{"start":5783.765,"end":5802.261,"text":"我拿到之後我特別翻閱了實質的內容他們都是質疑說是不是台灣要戰爭了但事實上這裡頭有聽到防空警報沒有錯但是也有海嘯警報然後也有資安的守護還有告訴你防災相關的知識所以我認為這一本事實上就如同封面所講的"},{"start":5802.921,"end":5829.093,"text":"他是一個全民安全的指引遇到各種挑戰包括這第一頁其實開宗明義就寫了就是這是一個充滿挑戰的時代所以我們在面對天災 疾病極端氣候當然還有中國的侵略這個全本就是在講這些沒有錯對吧是但是呢我們看到的是在在野黨委員質疑的同時今日海峽部長應該知道這是一個什麼媒體吧今日海峽"},{"start":5832.361,"end":5853.458,"text":"是中國的官媒 就馬上來奚落這一本然後甚至於說 這個要拿來墊泡麵坦白講啦 說實話 這一本喔 印得太小了如果要墊泡麵還真的不夠 不夠墊這個大碗的滿漢大餐喔 會壓不住甚至於呢 去講說 為什麼要印紙本其實這裡面就有提到啊 停電能上網嗎"},{"start":5854.759,"end":5872.079,"text":"所以部長我認為像這樣子的使用跟說法跟說明事實上是必要讓全民都看到本席是非常支持的因為台灣現在面臨很多的挑戰不只是中共的軍事威脅還有的就是包括極端氣候所產生的天災地變"},{"start":5875.342,"end":5890.304,"text":"所以在這個部分包括預算的使用我也想知道現在我們如何運用這一筆預算除了因應之外重要的是要想辦法到加戶那麼預算的使用已經被質疑了說是動用第二預備金那麼你要不要做一個解釋"},{"start":5891.925,"end":5910.917,"text":"我想國防部昨天記者會也好或者新聞稿也好大概都有一個說明也就是說我們認為這樣子的一個強化全民的安全意識那比較於其他各國已經有在做的都是有用普發資本的方式即使是現在這樣子的一個數位時代"},{"start":5911.497,"end":5928.279,"text":"所以為了降低這樣的一個數位落差同時在危急的時刻包括這一個災害來臨的時候那如何要進行防災跟避難這個的時候如果有一個普化的一個資本然後讓這些不論是能夠在數位的"},{"start":5929.02,"end":5945.305,"text":"上面有比較高度優勢或者是比較這個偏鄉的這些老人或者是其他的一些不具有這樣的數位接觸的能力的人都能夠知道這樣子的一個內容對於我們整個"},{"start":5946.205,"end":5974.015,"text":"全民安全意識的強化是非常有幫助的所以才會決定用普發資本的方式那普發資本之後的決定之後那因為這個年度預算的這個計畫有不足因為本來是印小量的那現在要印成這個普發的方式那所以我們就依照這個預算法的相關規定70條的相關規定來申請這個行政院動資的第二預備金那行政院也同意"},{"start":5974.482,"end":6003.142,"text":"好 那麼我想問的就是在還沒有要普發喔 只是這個訊息就出來了包括中國的官媒開始虛襲落 數落那麼這是不是一個中國的認知作戰我想我們應該就國防部理事長我們要從事反認知作戰那最好的方式就是我們要盡量把我們所有認為我們應該讓全民知道的事情讓全民知道"},{"start":6003.642,"end":6022.928,"text":"所以我想國際的民主國家都也會用這個普發的方式來充分的讓國民來了解要具有這個安全的意識所以我們是跟國際接軌那同時間也因為這樣子我想中國可能不是很高興但是我們應該做我們應該做的事情"},{"start":6024.748,"end":6041.989,"text":"好 本席是非常同意啦因為這一本小小的其實只有30頁啦那麼平常這個如果不願意讀書的委員的話是可以看一下對自己的安全是有一些保障的因為我們沒有一個人是局外人那另外我只有一個小小的建議啦就是這一本上面叫做"},{"start":6042.81,"end":6062.99,"text":"台灣全民安全指引喔但是我去網站下載的時候上面是寫全民國防手冊專區啦我是建議要名實相符啦然後就是因為喔全民國防所以就會被人家做文章以為只有國防所以我建議啦就是下載的專區名字要改一下不然會找不到可以吧"},{"start":6064.171,"end":6087.747,"text":"因為確實過去叫全民國防守則但是這一本上面寫的是台灣全民安全指引有非常充分的討論用安全指引的方式我回去我請他們檢討一下是不是修正一下在這個專區裡面我們開設一個一點進去就可以看得到的"},{"start":6089.408,"end":6110.595,"text":"這個就是這樣有的時候想要做文章的人就會拿來做文章那這個我只是一個小提醒當然它是一個全民國防手冊專區但是這個部分是不是可以標註更明確一點免得就是雞蛋裡挑骨頭就當作我也是雞蛋裡挑骨頭的提醒好嗎好另外我要"},{"start":6112.642,"end":6130.757,"text":"好 那我另外要往下來質詢就是我們回到今天的題目其實有關於今天我們安排的這個國軍健康安全我在10月的時候就曾經質詢過部長了當時是針對預算來做質詢那麼今天再度排案的時候我有去理解了更多的資料我們知道總預算的原額是19萬1474人"},{"start":6133.579,"end":6159.777,"text":"使用率其實只有1.5%1.5%國防部對於這樣的人數喔其實就是他使用的次數只有2840人那麼在這個部分到底國防部覺得滿意這個數字嗎那麼當然這個數字我們上次有講過了他所傳達的有可能就是國防現在的心理的部分大家都很健康不需要使用但是會不會有另外一個狀況是我同時也調出了資料就是自主預約高達97%那麼這個是不是也"},{"start":6164.36,"end":6190.195,"text":"顯示出官兵們對於部隊來講他其實內部的心腹機制他們恐怕是比較不信任的那麼在這個整體來說看到了這些數字之後更重要的是還有就是二兵居多然後呢少衛中衛其次那麼根據這樣的報告的結果包括我們所知所了解的就是說在這樣的使用上面喔那麼在推廣跟推展度上面是不是還是有待加強的部分"},{"start":6191.329,"end":6217.838,"text":"跟委員報告我首先說明一下我們這邊的樣態的分析事實上就二兵跟少數位居多的這個是用原來的三級的防止機制去得出來的分析那在這個心理健康這個照護方案我們還是強調隱私所以我們在這個地方除了他具有高風險的這個因子之外也需要做一個轉介沿著上我們就維持他的隱私那這樣的話使用的這個"},{"start":6219.099,"end":6231.517,"text":"比例 當他逐漸對這個方案信賴之後他使用的比例才會越來越高那他去求助於這些跟我們合作的機構他如果就能夠得到緩解我覺得這個本身就是有他的效益"},{"start":6231.977,"end":6243.067,"text":"好所以呢不論說現在的就是整體的改善的方向是如何本席的建議就是如果就如部長所說的是在宣傳跟使用度上不夠的話那麼建立這個所謂的信任機制讓他們敢使用這個也是非常重要的"},{"start":6249.352,"end":6266.872,"text":"那麼另外一個就是本席特別對比了就是剛剛報告也特別提到了這是從衛福部的這個想法當中來的但是這個就是不患寡患不均在北部地區就有171所合作的機構但是中部 南部 東部加起來"},{"start":6267.452,"end":6287.833,"text":"其實才157所不及北部的171所那麼我特別調了衛福部合作的機構的比例可以來看一下就是大概衛福部這邊只有南部東部合作的機構那我們會看到就是整體來說衛福部他的比例是平均的然後接近的那麼在這個部分"},{"start":6289.555,"end":6309.847,"text":"是不是有它什麼樣資源配置的理由還是說有什麼樣合作機構可能的增加因為坦白說這樣的一個配置是不是也會讓外界感受到那是不是北部的兵力比較多但是通常我們兵力配置也是一個機密嘛那在這個部分有沒有要增加或加強讓比例更均衡的部分"},{"start":6310.687,"end":6324.424,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為今年是2月13號開始執行所以我們今年第一年開始做那麼今年合作了328家我們在明年我們會持續的去拓展它的來源讓各個地區能夠盡量達到平衡那麼目前除了"},{"start":6330.01,"end":6342.367,"text":"各縣市的分布情形當然是除了馬祖現在沒有之外那其他各縣市其實都有那麼另外使用的部分也都是由比較大的都會去使用的機率也比較高那麼明年我們會持續來努力謝謝委員"},{"start":6344.79,"end":6367.843,"text":"好 本席就是希望在這個資源分布上面能夠更加平均因為我們既然關心這個題目除了關心官兵的使用率使用上是否安全使用之後是否有效果之外我認為在尋求資源的時候也能夠分布得更平均然後讓他們有機會更容易來取得這樣的心理上面的諮商是 我們來努力好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6373.359,"end":6376.8,"text":"接下來請柯智恩委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是請部長是柯委員好"},{"start":6396.915,"end":6402.641,"text":"委員部長好我想我在10月8號的時候曾經就有關於軍中身心調適假的問題就交於部長特別我提出來了雖然我們每年有差不多一定的三天的身心調適假但是遇到汗光演習或是特別緊急狀況的時候你們認為說"},{"start":6415.874,"end":6443.94,"text":"到底是不是可以準價那部長說要帶回去研議那目前已經超過一個多月了研議的結果到底是如何我看過相關的規定他是不能夠影響戰備的狀況所以演習適同作戰我想在這個地方應該是不適宜讓他可以所以說當初所提到的全責主管不得拒絕是指一般的狀況如果遇到緊急狀況還是沒有辦法就對了因為我看到那個條文他在這個前沿的那個地方就是要在不影響這個"},{"start":6444.98,"end":6464.696,"text":"好 部長我只是希望有個非常明確的一個做法不要到時候準薄完全是給基層的這個軍官來做決定這會造成一個部分如果是完全不行就把指令清楚一點這樣可以嗎是 因為在那個條文它底下有很多是啦 那部長你說你說要給我研議你也要告訴我一下我到目前為止"},{"start":6465.296,"end":6484.994,"text":"好吧 你也要告诉我一个结果我是说这个条件要非常的明确不要到时候准博是由忠诚的这个军官来做这样的一个处置这样对他们来说是不公平的好 那我们今天特别提到的心理的健康我应该是说身为一个26年来都从事心理智商训练的一个老师而言我必须要去说"},{"start":6485.915,"end":6511.085,"text":"軍中的心理健康不是沒有制度而是你看軍中是一個非常豐富的體系不管是在文化不管在於很多的資源不管在紀律壓力之下面其實它是不同於一般的我隨便舉個例子來說在場非常多中高層所有的將官你們可能沒有這個問題心裡有苦也可以往內賣吞因為認為這是你們要承受的壓力包括你們自己的孩子如果告訴你還要做心理諮商你們自己自問你們怎麼想可以接受嗎"},{"start":6513.886,"end":6540.514,"text":"所以這就是軍中文化跟我們很大的不一樣部長你同意這一點吧因為我們接受過非常多你們將領的孩子心裡有很多就覺得他自己受到父親非常嚴格的部分認為他必須要有一個比別人更有的這個韌性所以有很多的個案都來自於各位的子弟好不好所以我只是要圖寫因為我沒有一個將軍的父親所以可能要問一下這些將軍大家可以思考一下"},{"start":6542.015,"end":6563.128,"text":"這就是思考一下這是我說的軍中的一個文化還有一些壓力的一個承受親子的一些的問題其實呈現非常多的面向那你如果來看一下這個部分裡面我說實在我看到這份資料因為來自審計部對於這個軍中的這些有關心腹人力是有一些的想法的也有一些的提出了一些的批評那我真的剛開始對於你們所提出來的自殺 自殘 自傷"},{"start":6568.091,"end":6571.412,"text":"我這三個部分是完全不一樣的可不可以說明一下這到底是自殺還是自殘我把它改成自殺因為我認為這個比數比較是合理如果是自殘的話應該比這個比數更高很多結果我們政府單位所給我的資料裡面一下給我自殺 一下給我自殘 一下給我自殺這三個是不一樣的部長你了解嗎我需要一個很正確的比數這應該是自殺吧"},{"start":6592.686,"end":6611.643,"text":"就我的這邊給我的一些內部的資料我們都會以自殺這個應該是吧對 但是你們報給審計部的部分常常用自殘或是自傷所以我覺得這個必須要部分因為你自殘的比例的話一定比高於他都十倍以上啦因為自殘沒有是不是"},{"start":6613.485,"end":6618.61,"text":"鮑威我們都是以自殺來自殺才是正確因為這個比數我還是強調在軍中的自傷跟自殘的比數一定高於這個好幾倍以上因為這個部分裡面我們現在一定清楚我們就說如果說用自殺的比例來去看說實在的114年是統治到6月看來是有降低"},{"start":6633.967,"end":6643.937,"text":"去年高達37件的自殺應該是最高的一個比率目前是有進步這點要給國防部還是要一點肯定這沒有問題但是我還是要提出來因為我們的自殺已經重回國人的十大死因之一我們來看一下你們的比數我還是覺得這個人力上面我剛剛特別提到了為什麼很多人說不是製鬥的問題而是你們軍中的文化我們往下下面一頁來去看"},{"start":6658.53,"end":6674.005,"text":"目前來說呢你們倒是具有諮商證照的大概是69人那你以這個比例來看我們比較rough來看的話大概是2300人這個比數是過高的我說以專業證照來去看這個比數是高的但是你如果加上其他的話你們下面還有一個沒有錯吧這個次數對吧專業的"},{"start":6679.554,"end":6698.238,"text":"包委員你這個數字應該是近三年考上證照的我們現在全軍具有證照的是202位那麼占所有新府人員的比例大概是將近五成不到五成是不到五成的理由因為我知道你們有另外一個有關輔導輔導的人力的這個部分輔導人力裡面來說的話"},{"start":6700.919,"end":6705.141,"text":"其實我還是有意見的你知道為什麼嗎因為輔導人裡面你們當初來看的話他們的訓練來說的話很多時候呢你們心理專業的訓練只有五個星期五個星期還有五週的訓練你這樣去處理你們心中目前目前越來越多年紀輕的這個新兵他們的身體調適他們很多憂鬱他們包括他們很多自己的這個心理上的問題這些完全不夠的你還是需要專業的證照你只有五成對不起喔這個基本上以專業來看這個是遠遠不如的"},{"start":6730.535,"end":6735.877,"text":"因為你專業證照你要1600考只要有碩士學位跟你一般只接受五個禮拜的這樣的一個訓練這個是沒有辦法而且特別我們提到的你往往在自殺當中呢一下子就降到馬上就直接到了一個危險的階段你們沒有在第一時間當中去可以完全把它界定出來檢測出來目前來說沒有啊這就是你們所看到的"},{"start":6754.265,"end":6772.411,"text":"幾乎在審計部裡面指出在108到112年這個158個自殺當中超過80%是沒有經過初級發掘預防就直接進入到危機點的那就在你第一線當中你沒有辦法立即感受出它的一個危機性這個是一個非常危險的"},{"start":6773.211,"end":6789.871,"text":"你們怎麼樣來解決這個問題所以跟委員報告我想我們的這個新府能力的編制跟我們的縣議員比現在還是有一個落差是我們現在還是要充實我們的新府能力那新府能力裡面也有分二級介入輔導跟三級專業處一那三級專業處一的新府的"},{"start":6790.191,"end":6805.233,"text":"专业政党能力也应该要再加强这绝对会是的而且你们现在比较好跟相对于过去来说所以我们现在在另外推出一个心理健康照顾方案就是借助于民间的治愈我知道民间他不愿意过来军中担任但是我们开放这些官兵"},{"start":6805.894,"end":6818.44,"text":"只能夠在保護隱私的情況之下他無需轉介他自動去跟民間支援部長我了解因為很多學生就在民間單位我剛剛說為什麼很多降臨的孩子就是因為他們都到前面去所以才會有這些我們知道的個案但是因為隱私的關係這才是正確因為我們諮商最重視的就是倫理"},{"start":6825.783,"end":6850.316,"text":"然後倫理跟隱私如果都完全在你們軍中系統來的話的話萬一他發生問題而且他的心理的創傷是來自於直屬的長官你這件事情如果你的系統在你們軍中他敢不敢 他要不要呈報這就是牽涉到倫理的問題你放給外面來的東西這才是一個正確的一個做法對 所以我們才推出這個我們現在才推出這個心理健康照護檔案是 然後最後我還是要問如果說真的是有一些心理上面的問題會不會影響他的升遷還有這些記錄的話會不會影響他的升遷"},{"start":6855.786,"end":6869.06,"text":"我想我們都會有一個輔導那只要他沒有具有這樣子的一個問題的情況之下我想應該是如果他有就診記錄曾經有過重度憂鬱等等一些心理調適的問題會不會影響他的生前這個軍醫局來做一個因為"},{"start":6875.526,"end":6899.053,"text":"報告委員 如果我們的軍官或者是志願役士兵如果有體位上符合按照我們國軍體位氣溫標準心理問題 會不會影響身軀如果他體位的確符合精神疾病是會被我們註記的所以會不會影響身軀應該是會所以有影響身軀但是如果他只是一般的這些心理的諮詢應該是不會"},{"start":6901.034,"end":6926.007,"text":"心理的諮詢就看你們要怎麼樣去認定還有我還是要最後還要提醒跟委員解釋一下就是說所有人經過醫院的診療只要能夠健康的出院對生鮮是沒有影響的對 生鮮沒有影響所以不會影響生鮮就對了是然後非常重要的一點在這個過程當中我還是強調不管是人力的一個層面還是有關於"},{"start":6927.148,"end":6949.923,"text":"很多的問題是來自自己軍中直屬的長官的這個這個層面這個問題如果沒有辦法整個這個比較封閉的這個東西沒有辦法的話人力的問題心理的問題其實是很難獲得疏解我是提醒部長真的目前的孩子跟我們過去是不一樣的他們每個承受的任性跟壓力都跟我們過去是不一樣的所以呢需要有更多的"},{"start":6950.823,"end":6968.512,"text":"資源更多的人力才有辦法兵好我們才有整個國家的部隊才會好這是必須要投放更多我們現在目前的這個經費跟我們的整個預算比起來其實還是遠遠不如希望部長在未來對於這個心理健康的層面裡面能夠多放很多的心思在裡面這樣才是很好的這個環境的適應的問題涉及到領導團等等然後基層部隊我想"},{"start":6973.695,"end":6978.019,"text":"我們要加強二級的介入輔導跟三級的專業處理那另外就是 心理健康照護判案也讓他能夠勇於去進行求助這樣對 還有對於你們自己本身的親子關係的求助的部分裡面勇敢說出來好不好 男人有淚也讓他流出來這是對心理來說的話也是不要擺著一個這樣子 大家都是陽光的燦爛微笑背後裡面有多少的心理的側面"},{"start":6997.655,"end":7007.258,"text":"希望從你們做起你們的孩子才有辦法可以真的是覺得自己可以是健康的部分這是語重心長因為有太多的個案在我們身上好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們目前收到臨時提案共兩案待會兒王定宇委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息五分鐘現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7034.493,"end":7036.215,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請顧立雄顧部長請部長"},{"start":7044.933,"end":7065.416,"text":"是 雪兒部長好 這個書最近很紅那我想先表態就是說我認為去在這個無論是什麼時候提供台灣全民的安全指引無論是網路版本或是紙本我個人都沒有意見是支持的因為很多時候我們的天災也不只有一種"},{"start":7066.397,"end":7090.984,"text":"那但是我想要先問一下一個問題因為我們發現這個紙本上面有兩種不同的版本那一種是有賴清德總統簽名的一種是沒有賴清德總統簽名的我想問一下各自是印了或者是打算印幾本我先問這個好了因為第一個版本是沒有賴總統簽名的那這個印了多少本呢"},{"start":7093.05,"end":7109.034,"text":"報委員好我是全眾署署長有關這個第一版的是9月16號國防部記者會公佈了之後發的那是小批量印的只印了5000本5000本所以總共是多少金額大概12萬左右12萬那請問這12萬本接下來如何處理"},{"start":7112.855,"end":7134.662,"text":"不是12萬本是金額12萬然後5000本這5000本基本上有自己發一發就就沒了沒有沒有第一個他有配合了921地震這個災防日的防災宣導的時候配合來實施發放然後也會有在門市部分部門來做發放不要浪費就好了"},{"start":7136.563,"end":7156.619,"text":"再來下載量的部分我們可以看到第一個版本的在網路上的下載量是16615次但是有賴總統簽名的版本目前只有1100次可能是因為發布時間的不同但我覺得既然你們已經印了第二個版本那是不是第一個版本可以在網路上面更新的時候你就把它拿掉"},{"start":7157.279,"end":7180.331,"text":"不然呢我看到網路上很多人也在嘲笑啊有賴清德總統版本就一千一百個人要下載但是呢這個沒有的有一萬六千多個人要下載其實這個沒有必要嘛那是不是你們有更新的部分呢那舊的版本你就可以把它拿下來我不懂為什麼同樣的類似的內容就是差一個簽名在網路上面要放這麼多次依依在哪裡"},{"start":7181.091,"end":7201.771,"text":"報委員我想我跟委員做一個解釋這也要解釋喔第一個版本的時候那個版本裡面天然災害裡面沒有驗射狐一流我沒有你沒有聽懂等一下你沒有聽懂我的意思就是你第二個版本一定做了一定的版本我們有更新後的新的版本"},{"start":7202.873,"end":7232.613,"text":"我部長你有聽懂我意思嗎他沒有聽懂我意思沒有他剛剛已經講了就是我們只留更新後的版本以後就好了對啊但現在不是啊我剛才上網看了啊對所以我剛剛就說你們回去是不是統合成一個版本就好了既然都更新了那為什麼舊的版本還要放在上面這個沒有意義的事情嘛對不對好那接下來我要問喔這個因為部長手上沒有所以我是不是主席可以給我時間那個暫停我把我手上這一本提供給部長好不好因為我怕還是您手上是有的"},{"start":7232.953,"end":7236.495,"text":"那是不是可以暫停我時間我把這本拿給部長那民眾一般來說呢最在乎的事情是呢聽到防空警報或者是我們需要去避難的時候那我們能夠去避難的避難點在哪裡我想請問一下如果我今天我不清楚但我有這本手冊的話"},{"start":7260.669,"end":7288.887,"text":"以我們現在所在的立法院我們要如何透過這一本然後呢現在要花多少的時間能夠找到相關的避難點請問我們現在部長可不可以示範給我們看一下跟委員報告就這裡面手冊就有提到你在平時的時候哪裡啦哪一頁啊然後怎麼做第七頁第七頁ok好第七頁然後呢就在平時的時候就下載你有沒有你有沒有你有沒有這個download過這個app"},{"start":7291.079,"end":7303.557,"text":"我想有那這個APP金正福的APP跟消防防災的一點通的APP你有沒有登入過自己本身嘗試過這個APP上面的一些問題"},{"start":7305.885,"end":7328.495,"text":"就是說不然您懂我意思嗎你現在寫了一個APP在上面那我呢在緊急的時候呢我下載了這個APP比如說我看到第七頁之後我下載這個APP我問您一個問題警政服務的APP需不需要登入跟註冊個人資訊他下面有個QR code對啊你要不要你用手機的話不要掃一下看看會發生什麼事情"},{"start":7331.169,"end":7339.574,"text":"來我們看我已經掃給你看了如果你使用的是警政服務的話你要先用使用者認證電話號碼輸入驗證號碼之後開通帳號然後你才能進到這個警政服務系統"},{"start":7345.137,"end":7363.334,"text":"所以如果你要想喔你今天這本叫做台灣全民安全指引它是接到防空警報之後我們要立刻尋找我們合適的避難所在這個時候你提供給他的這個APP進去以後要先下載下載以後要打開打開之後要使用者認證然後呢要確認之後開通帳號"},{"start":7366.497,"end":7376.485,"text":"你才能夠進到APP裡面去其實一個相當繁複的過程好 您剛還有講到另外一個在21頁這個是平時要先下載嗎"},{"start":7377.369,"end":7405.268,"text":"你覺得有多少人平時有下載來我問一下警政服務APP目前有多少人下載下載數量目前是多少所以我們應該要宣導啊對嘛沒有我問你現在目前下載人數是多少嘛下載人數我手上沒有資料是啊所以你也不知道啊所以好你說要宣導但問題是你平常就要下載那你同時又有另外一個叫做消防防災一點通的APP在這個消防防災一點通的APP它跟警政服務有哪裡不一樣部長您知道嗎"},{"start":7406.331,"end":7407.253,"text":"細節的部分是不是說明一下"},{"start":7411.075,"end":7416.058,"text":"因為如果你們大家都不知道的話那你印這個本子給大家然後自己都不知道自己的本子的內容是什麼那請問一般人他會看嗎他會下載嗎 他會使用嗎遇到問題的時候真的有用嗎我們希望這個冊子是有用的因為消防 防災一點通就我理解因為他的資訊會有包括配售站救濟站等等的這些位置來 我們看他相對剛才警政服務的APP比較好的地方是他不需要有這麼多的註冊行為"},{"start":7440.535,"end":7454.449,"text":"而且它可以下載離線地圖所以其實我很懷疑為什麼你們在防空警報的這個部分要放的是警政服務的APP而不是防災的這個1.通的APP但它一樣有一個問題來 我給您看一下下一張圖片"},{"start":7458.537,"end":7478.986,"text":"同樣是一個 這就在我們旁邊而已你看雙月食品設計南店旁邊同樣在不同 左邊是警政的左邊是警政服務的APP右邊是消防防災伊田東的APP它都是屬於防空避難處所它寫了人次 左邊寫的是645人右邊寫的是1416人請問哪一個數字才是正確的"},{"start":7487.909,"end":7503.104,"text":"我想這個相關的這些你講的這些數字的這個部分我們再來跟這個內政部再來核對一下我知道啊但因為你們冊子都發我意思是說你們在因為"},{"start":7504.285,"end":7526.71,"text":"出版機關是國防部嘛上面印QR code也是國防部印的嘛所以你們既然你要說這是一個當危機一來臨時的台灣全民安全指引照理來說上面所有的資訊你們都要進行過查核都要知道它到底是不是正確的而不是現在已經印出來了要發了都花了錢了然後才說我們再來看看那個APP怎麼樣這是不對的再來呢我們可以看到的是說呢來"},{"start":7533.564,"end":7542.486,"text":"你們裡面齁這個離線地圖的部分像好大家知道我們在隔壁這個中心大樓我們寫的避難人數是多少人嗎"},{"start":7548.874,"end":7575.972,"text":"2214在我們中心大樓裡面如果今天有防災的話我們周邊來的人要進到我們的防空殯而且是地下室有2000多人所以我的意思是說我建議國防部還有跟內政部一同針對我們全台灣也可以請台北市政府一起幫忙到底有多少的防災避難人數他是可容納的我就真的應該要重新的去檢討"},{"start":7577.433,"end":7601.478,"text":"甚至我們周邊有很多其實是相關的政府部門他也有地下室的但是很多並沒有被納進來可是有非常多的私人住宅大樓是被納進來的這棟其實位置在哪裡很清楚我就不多說了可是你部長你確定今天如果災難來臨的時候一般民眾進得去嗎這個門口大家都是鎖起來的"},{"start":7607.163,"end":7613.786,"text":"你確定大家進得去嗎我想委員指的是應該指的是說這個地下室他可能在那個會關著嘛對啊 他在大樓是這樣子嘛車道是這樣子嘛然後我要是住戶我才有車道的這個鑰匙嘛可是他也是所謂的防控避難的處所嘛"},{"start":7625.831,"end":7647.32,"text":"他上面寫的一邊說他可以容1416一邊說645我現在已經不知道哪一個數字是正確了然後呢你現在告訴我這麼多的私人住宅大樓裡面都是屬於防空避難那我今天我住附近的人又可能住四層樓公寓我沒有地下室我要去躲啊那請問我到了這個私人住宅大樓的時候我真的可以進得去嗎"},{"start":7650.978,"end":7673.378,"text":"我想這個其實在重建過程當中有討論是不是請全統委報委員如果說高樓層的是就地避難然後低樓層的像地下室來實施避難這個在我們在製作的時候警政署內政部都有做過相關討論那另外什麼討論你討論完之後有沒有寫在上面嗎"},{"start":7674.099,"end":7696.037,"text":"我的意思是說你今天的這個冊子就是要讓大家看了之後包含你的QR Code引導之後沒有任何問題我可以很直接很直覺的我就可以到現場我今天如果是我在附近的一個住戶或者是我附近經過的時候我看到了我下載了這個APP告訴我說這裡有一個地址可以收容1416頁我到了現場我進不去請問該如何是好各位人請您看到第16頁"},{"start":7702.622,"end":7724.202,"text":"他是針對了 第16頁是針對了天災 他有好幾種太陽包含了地震 土石流 驗射湖 然後呢他都有教民眾求生避難的一個方式我知道 我現在問的就是在防空避難嘛 你跟我講其他的做什麼呢你現在跟我講地震 你16頁寫什麼 你唸給我聽標題"},{"start":7727.782,"end":7733.845,"text":"妳不要這樣糊弄大家喔我跟妳講的事情跟妳現在講的事情不一樣喔妳16月標題寫什麼地震 土石流 海嘯跟颱風我問妳的是什麼我問妳的是防空警報跟防空避難處所這有一樣嗎"},{"start":7744.712,"end":7749.678,"text":"我只是跟委員報告不用只是因為你要回答我問你的問題你懂我意思嗎如果我沒有問那你就無需回答那我問了你應該要回答我不能我問你A你答我B這是不對的所以我現在只問你"},{"start":7760.209,"end":7780.944,"text":"關於防空警報發生的時候民眾不管從他的第7頁警政服務APP或者是他的第23頁吧21頁的消防APP裡面看到了我已上了資訊之後我到了這個地址我真的進得去嗎如果進不去的話他該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7783.134,"end":7795.204,"text":"我想這個相關的這些住宅第一個當然要允許他進駐第二個就是說他如果有相關的管理人員的時候也要允許他進駐所以這個都要經過相關的演練那對 所以需要演練可是因為現在已經演練好了如果今天現在此時此刻發生了防空避難然後我要到這個大樓就在我們隔壁而已我相信大家都非常清楚是哪一棟我進得去嗎"},{"start":7811.036,"end":7819.141,"text":"如果進不去的時候我應該要如何跟政府單位聯絡讓我能夠進去因為當下我們應該是有進去的權利因為我們要避難那請問在這個手冊裡面有沒有告訴我們任何的辦法如果今天在政府公開所寫到的私人的避難場所私人住宅大樓的防空避難所進不去的情況之下要跟誰聯絡讓民眾可以進去避難"},{"start":7840.215,"end":7863.241,"text":"所以我想我們必須要逐步的擴大這樣的演練一直到全區都要能進行演練就是說當防空警報響起的時候這一個被列為這個防空避難設施的就要讓這一個讓這些非住戶的部分的民眾為了避難所需也要能夠進入部長我完全同意您的說法但是這一份是不是很快就要發給大家了預計什麼時候發放"},{"start":7870.166,"end":7885.623,"text":"包委員今天會有四提次那我覺得有一件事情你們真的要檢討你不能等發放下去大家都拿到資訊之後你們才來針對這些細節做處置"},{"start":7887.785,"end":7890.286,"text":"你們那沒辦法因為已經要發了嘛那是不是能夠盡快的去把我剛剛講的這些問題能夠來完成避免大家收到啦真的發生的時候啊去了現場之後啊進不去又要在外面跑到別的地方"},{"start":7904.694,"end":7928.056,"text":"這就變成是這本手冊上面登載的資料跟實際發生的情況不符合也就失去了我們印刷這樣手冊的意義所以我們希望國防部可以針對這些地方再去做努力我大概簡要的跟委員報告一下在我們整個由國安會做這樣跨部會協調的時候大概就是說明第一個 防空避難的指引要逐漸的要方便"},{"start":7929.417,"end":7956.89,"text":"第二個就是航空避難的能夠容納的這個人數大家要經過精確統計剛剛委員有指教這兩個的系統不一致這個我們也要來下去由前動署跟請公安會我們來進行一個協調那第三個當然就是說當航空警報響起的時候如何能夠讓飛助護能夠進去各個航空避難設施這個要經過不斷的演練讓大家都有這樣的意識那包括就是說他有保全人員跟沒有保全人員"},{"start":7957.81,"end":7986.312,"text":"怎麼樣子的一個作為那最接近你的地方那在聽到防空警報的時候要做什麼樣的處置我想這個都要經過相關的演練那最後因為這個本子就要發了所以呢你們要做的剛才的這一塊你講的我都同意但是因為要發了所以應該要儘快完成否則你會變成你發了一個本子但是實際上面不符合現實的情況那這樣就失去了硬質的意義了所以希望國防部儘快檢討好嗎"},{"start":7989.674,"end":8003.679,"text":"好我們現在修正宣告待會賴志寶委員質詢結束以後進行處理臨時提案處理完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請王帝宇委員上台質詢麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":8022.773,"end":8050.292,"text":"部長早在我今天一個比較大的題目之前有一個個案我想讓國防部知道我們今天當然談的是軍人的心腹是讓每一個每一位我們國軍的弟兄姊妹都是國家重要的資產我相信我們以前在部隊不管當排長當聯營長都有一句話說要把自己的弟兄照顧好我昨天在地方服務的時候突然有一個年輕人30來歲"},{"start":8052.608,"end":8073.258,"text":"跛著腳然後眼歪嘴斜的走進我的辦公室他還講不好意思我走路比較慢等我一下他慢慢走進我辦公室然後坐下來之後他把資料給我看他曾經是我們高雄燕巢工兵訓練中心上尉姓劉我資料待會給陸軍他在民國109年3月4號在聯集合場在出勤務的時候當場"},{"start":8081.338,"end":8110.254,"text":"腦出血 暈穴然後我們講的中風了就送到醫院去了然後一直治療到2025年 今年7月30日那整個人就是肢體 顏面 各方面你可以想像一個30來歲的年輕人人生會過得很辛苦這個是我們的國軍袍責就好像發現一件事情沒有辦法申請軍保理賠"},{"start":8112.165,"end":8137.601,"text":"我還問他說你軍保理賠這樣損失多少350萬他未來人生要40年50年都要面對這個狀態一個人他就一個人然後問了負責我們軍保的那個保險公司說不好意思你超過兩年沒有申請你的權利上司了然後呢部隊裡面的負責團體軍人這個團體意外保險理賠的負責的同仁"},{"start":8141.997,"end":8156.279,"text":"那個人事官還怪他說你第一時間為什麼沒有提出申請他第一時間昏迷啊他這筆錢沒辦法申請求助無門所以跑了蠻遠的路到我那邊"},{"start":8157.742,"end":8173.569,"text":"這件事情我希望他算是一個個案可能也代表一個現象那個參謀長這邊有沒有什麼解決的方法包委員我簡單向您報告謝謝委員的關切這個案子我也針對這個案子召集了法務你知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":8174.429,"end":8198.746,"text":"召开了一个专案的了解那我简单的报告他109年的您所谓的这个身体中风这个状况那事实上他已经符合了所谓他已经请领了这个身心一等残的一个资格那因为他是符合终身抚恤那每年都有他抚恤这块我们军方有办他是属于一等残坦白讲"},{"start":8201.048,"end":8212.602,"text":"這麼年輕的弟兄領一等殘是一個我們當然不希望看到的事情我現在講的是軍保這一塊軍保這一塊因為礙於現行的規定他的確他如果要用現在他因為在11月1號已經辦退伍了"},{"start":8214.864,"end":8242.122,"text":"那他如果要追溯就是说拿出最新的证明可是他可能会影响到他的这个终身一等残的判定所以我简单的讲终身一等残的判定领取终身抚恤跟这个团体保险他在现在这个状况下他只能选择对他权益最大的这个事情我不晓得部长是法律专家我们会持续的我们不管是国军花钱或者我个人花钱我投保了"},{"start":8243.123,"end":8272.649,"text":"跟我在職業 職場上的職災這兩個不能二則一啊 拜託報告委員我們會再來聯繫這個劉尚蔚我花保險就是在現有撫恤體制上能夠加值叫保險嘛保險是花錢買的耶我到了幾等殘根據殘等你該賠我就賠我現在我們的軍保其實有很大的問題啊我改天要專題討論這個我們就變成是這樣子你要國家幫你處理了"},{"start":8273.612,"end":8302.996,"text":"我就不賠了那這麼好賺啊我們下去再找這位劉先生就是我們的劉尚偉跟他做研討再向您報告這是一個概念我們的撫恤是我們軍人的權益是政府作為雇主要負擔的責任保險是我付費買的我希望一輩子不要用到當我出事了國家照顧我但是我買的保險也該賠我啊"},{"start":8304.517,"end":8324.307,"text":"怎麼說你撫恤這個屬於一等殘終生月撫恤可以領所以你這個要二則一我現在在場所有的將領我們都不希望看到這個事情我們自己跟親人都不想看到這個事情怎麼會發生之後保險不賠那是保險公司我保你何用啊因為撫恤比較高啊誰會去選保險"},{"start":8325.953,"end":8345.672,"text":"之前還發生一個事情 我在義務役受訓跳那個500障礙跳的時候 腳受傷了自己到民間 這個參謀長知道嗎 到民間就醫那因為那役其實四個月的 退伍了不賠不賠家人怪罪國軍 其實他是有保險的"},{"start":8346.875,"end":8370.687,"text":"軍保說沒有 他退伍之後自己到民間醫院就醫 我不賠我們的軍人保險 坦白講對軍人到底是一個保障還是當冤大頭每年扣那麼多錢給這個公司這個我要希望部長把這個題目這個個案去研究一下 怎麼會撫恤比較優渥所以你的保險二則一那這保險要幹嘛呢"},{"start":8371.613,"end":8397.77,"text":"你懂我意思嗎 部長對這事情能不能請部長透過這個個案了解一下因為這牽涉到我們的我們幾十萬的國軍弟兄姊妹的權益我想對這個問題我需要下去了解一下因為相關的這個保險的理賠條件跟這個相關的這些撫恤的關聯性我想我必須要再進一步了解三件事情第一個軍保的理賠的要件"},{"start":8398.908,"end":8413.943,"text":"你不能脫離社會不能對軍人這麼嚴苛第二件事情我們的人事官面對弟兄會申請這個大概就受重傷了要主動幫他辦而不是說你又沒有提出申請兩年申請期過了不能幫你辦這不對"},{"start":8415.683,"end":8444.284,"text":"因為他在部隊發生事情才會適用這個所以發生事情該做的撫恤我們記得幫他辦撫恤卻忘了幫他求償幫他申請理賠這是第二件事情第三個事情對於這樣的國軍弟兄他求救無門我們國軍要有門讓他來尋求協助這三件事情是不是請部長跟我們各軍種可以注意一下我現在請教另外一個事情是有關國防大學的心格我這邊有"},{"start":8446.94,"end":8468.17,"text":"我剛才看了一下國防大學的使命願景還有宗旨那個國防大學你們其實我不知道是蠻懶惰的還是作業疏忽你們發現你們社校宗旨跟另外一頁的學校的使命一個字都沒變都一模一樣所以你們的宗旨跟使命很好完全符合當然就不用寫兩次"},{"start":8469.491,"end":8484.522,"text":"你們社校宗旨跟使命是培育武德武藝兼備之建軍備戰領導及專業人才建立國防事務決策及研究機制與能量這是國防大學的宗旨跟辦學的使命"},{"start":8485.162,"end":8509.68,"text":"然後你們願景是建構哲學科學兵學一體全人教育環境這個runway of education這個是我們一般的文學校也是這個全人教育環境那確立軍事學門領域地位幾身世界一流軍事學府我當然不是要挑戰你們辦學品質什麼的我現在要講的是我們學校的設計在國防院校國防大學軍事專業素養重要"},{"start":8512.574,"end":8538.705,"text":"軍人的武德軍人的專業素養重要但是學術其實應該並重這兩個都一樣重要那這兩個一樣重要呢在軍人的這個天性是服從跟紀律長官的命令就是服從跟紀律但在學術領域叫做開放跟學習開放的心態接受不同的學門不同的心知然後樂於學習這兩個看起來是有點矛盾"},{"start":8539.545,"end":8559.737,"text":"但在國防院校裡面如何把它融合西點軍校啦 Virginia啦我們國防大學我們都希望是這樣子所以在學校的校務的部分其實應該有一些設計也就是我們目前國防大學所有的所有從校長 學務長 教務長一直到各院長都是兵科為主"},{"start":8560.936,"end":8578.988,"text":"我不是說兵科不好他有軍事的專業素養可是我沒有管理學院我沒有統計的概念的我當院長我沒有教育背景的我沒有學術背景的我讓學校的一級主管校長副校長全部都是有軍事背景卻沒有學術背景"},{"start":8580.134,"end":8600.406,"text":"那這個就有點失衡光教評會啦各方面可能就有一些處理上他會變成是以服從跟紀律為主開放跟學習變成不只是為府可能就變裝飾品那我還是要強調一次軍事的專業素養軍事的體質是很重要的不能偏廢所以我們可以參考其他國家"},{"start":8601.266,"end":8620.309,"text":"美國的國防大學他有一個provostprovost是教務長教務長也是vice president就是他們學校的學務的副校長叫做學術領域的副校長這一個他們任命的是以文職任用但要求要有教育戰略研究背景"},{"start":8621.05,"end":8638.548,"text":"日本的防衛大學他叫防衛大學校他有一個教育研究的副校長他特別在軍職之外設計了一套學術領域在學校輔助補強學術的部分他教育研究的副校長呢負責的教育品質研究學術倫理計畫審查那協助校長進行教務決策"},{"start":8644.333,"end":8661.08,"text":"韓國的KDU韓國國防大學他有教務副校長他也是文職具博士學位特別側重跟教育部門的聯繫要密切英國的這一個防衛大學防衛學院他有一個學術方面的"},{"start":8661.926,"end":8689.181,"text":"有軍文協同有文職來擔任協助軍文協同的制度所以是他山之石可以借鏡所以根據我們國防大學的軍事教育條例第八條第一項我們現在條文是軍事學校社校長一人然後呢副校長教務長政戰主任相助校長等等這是目前的我不知道這個國防大學或者我們部長願不願意去推動因為這不難"},{"start":8690.39,"end":8717.387,"text":"我們不偏廢我沒有要把軍職的拿走我們應該可以增設一個文職的副校長讓文職的副校長他在有學術背景有教育背景有戰略背景來相助學校在學校的部分然後我們國防大學組織歸程的第七條裡面也有類似的部分所以我就這個題目最後我請教我們的部長跟我們國防大學這一個心格的推動你的意見是什麼"},{"start":8718.607,"end":8732.797,"text":"我想委員的指教我會來全面的來檢討整個國防大學的組織架構那因為它有涉及到條例要修法也有可能涉及到組織規程的修改"},{"start":8733.437,"end":8754.948,"text":"那相關的這些蚊子的這些副校長的設置的可能可行性還有各學院他是不是要多有這個蚊子的人員來參與這個我想都可以來檢討部長不只是研究像我之前推動國防醫學院的校務基金因為那個一研究十來年都沒動"},{"start":8756.589,"end":8778.982,"text":"那時候在邱國正在設置了設置的時候對國防醫學院其實有很大幫助這事情我覺得應該把它當作一個命題那我剛才講的各學院用軍人我覺得OK 軍人當院長那軍人當院長的話其實我們有兵科專長比方說國管院是不是有國管院專長的因為將來的將領我要用兵我這個兵夠不夠專業我用的這個軍官夠不夠專業"},{"start":8781.844,"end":8806.14,"text":"他是來自於這邊訓練出來的才祖祖技各方面他有這方面的專業來相助我們的將領做學測才會相輔相成嘛所以在國防大學我們國防人才的培育軍事領域學術領域測重我們的終止願景我一開始就念了所以我是建議部長跟國防大學去思考在副校長的部分可以增設一個學術副校長"},{"start":8807.352,"end":8826.538,"text":"然後在我們的一級主管裡面有關教務的部分也許可以軍文通或者是以文職為主學院的部分尊重軍人背景但是要側重專長這是我個人的潛見至於條例的修法或者學校"},{"start":8829.179,"end":8854.218,"text":"組織規程內規的修訂修法的部分我已經連署在提出也就是說這是一個中性的針對國防大學的心格它不是政治議題而是說我們的國防大學目前有沒有可以做得更好的部分現狀不錯我可以讓它更進步這個部長能不能給個時間你們的研究多久可以有個方向出來我想委員我有看到提案是說兩個月以內"},{"start":8856.441,"end":8880.469,"text":"我尊重你認為適合的研討時間但我不希望這個議題一直拖下去我想是不是就三個月還是三個月吧OK 三個月我可以接受我們就要把這個命題研究出來然後我們來推動把這個東西修改然後讓國防大學我是希望它更好對 因為我覺得不是單純副校長的問題剛剛提到的這些我想應該要全面的來檢視好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位"},{"start":8888.042,"end":8890.742,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席一起各位先進了有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":8913.211,"end":8935.449,"text":"是 老委是 部長你好我請教一下是怎麼樣這個大陸有共諜 高院在昨天晚上這個裁定這個羈押什麼之類的這個到底是怎麼樣一回事啊怎麼軍中包括退役的包括現役的通通會淪陷的到底是怎麼一回事跟委員報告我想"},{"start":8939.785,"end":8967.772,"text":"我這邊能夠說的大概就是說我們在今年的時候有執行一個內部清查發掘那就通報那我們就由縣子部跟調查局來共同調查那確實是由我們兩位縣議的人涉案那現在已經起訴那這個那細節的部分因為已經進入司法程序我就不在於評論這樣子"},{"start":8968.832,"end":8970.414,"text":"這個是什麼時候發生的您說什麼時候對 什麼時候你開始啟動調查我們在一月如果你要講就一月的時候執行內部清查就發覺了是發生什麼問題所以要清查"},{"start":8990.355,"end":9017.232,"text":"對就是說他有一些收集一些相關的一些不當的資訊應該是這樣子然後有一些財務的狀況那我想細節我想細節當然這個已經交給已經記錄釋放了大家可以講說就是說有清查發現他有收集不當的資料然後有財務的相關問題那我們就認為是有問題的所以財務上的一個進出是不是這個意思"},{"start":9019.097,"end":9040.585,"text":"就是有相關的金流跟不正常的這些金流跟這些收集相關的資料我想我就講到這邊我們主動請老華姐因為我們亂了半天啦這個我們不斷的所謂的抗中爆台亂了半天 講起來還是很多啊"},{"start":9042.706,"end":9070.202,"text":"這個整個情況的共諜還在國防部裡面都有先例的軍人都有就不知道怎麼去弄好 第二個問題我想請教一下這個關於日本首相講的話說台灣有事日本自衛隊講什麼什麼我請教是不是用白話文講就是台灣有事日本會出兵是不是可以這樣講"},{"start":9072.011,"end":9099.779,"text":"我想高市首相是從日本的在面臨這個當中國以武力來這個使用武力來侵犯台灣的時候對於日本所產生的一個這樣的一個狀態的一個危險他做一個他們的基於首相他們在議會質詢的時候做一個說明"},{"start":9101.427,"end":9113.52,"text":"那我就問你啊所以是可能涉及到他的說明據我們了解是說當中國以武力來進行的時候會涉及到這個這叫做什麼存亡唯存利"},{"start":9117.512,"end":9134.336,"text":"存立危機的狀態這樣沒有 我問你的是白話文講可不可以解讀說日本首相要告訴早苗說如果台灣被侵略日本要出兵可不可以這樣解讀我想就是簡單就這樣我想應該是這樣講就是說日本的認知到台海的安全局勢是攸關日本的安全"},{"start":9147.509,"end":9159.731,"text":"那所以一旦台海發生任何的衝突他整個周邊國家的安全會受到非常大的威脅所以這個日本他要強調就是說他對於他們的這個"},{"start":9162.527,"end":9177.851,"text":"應該講說純利為己的一個狀態已經可能可以構成了所以日本會根據這樣子的一個具體的事態來做相對應的因應你還是沒有回答我的問題就是他要不要出兵這件事情他發動他的部隊來幫助台灣就問這個問題"},{"start":9185.127,"end":9212.983,"text":"我想我沒有辦法幫忙日本的首相再回答進一步他只是在說明當這一個台海發生衝突而且是武力的一個衝突的狀況形象之下對日本產生的威脅到什麼程度好 那現在應該是到哪一個純利為己的一個狀態所以你還是不敢回答那你可以看他講這個話之後美國跟日本有軍事同盟美國沒有講話"},{"start":9214.755,"end":9240.028,"text":"你不覺得很奇怪嗎 對不對日本首相講這個話 高市長講這個話他的意思是用百花紋講就是如果台灣被打了 危險到日本的安全他們會出兵 百花紋就這個意思那可是川普都沒講話耶 這很弔詭的美日有安全的頭目可是為什麼美國都不講話"},{"start":9242.119,"end":9243.703,"text":"還有最後一個問題結果老公海警船巡邏要釣魚台"},{"start":9250.898,"end":9276.64,"text":"這個我們的海軍有沒有角色扮演這第二點是我們的啊當然你會講說這是海巡署前面可是一般來講人家說海巡署在比如說靠近12海浬可是軍艦可以在24海浬比較遠一點的地方來這個來保護我們的海巡署這個你怎麼看我想兩點第一點剛剛委員問到美方沒有"},{"start":9278.361,"end":9300.209,"text":"發言的這件事情我可能要說明一下其實美方的這個不管是國防部長或者是印太司令他們都一再的去說明整個印太區域的和平穩定是屬於美國的一個核心利益這樣子的一個從他們要看到這個整個區域的和平穩定那而且他們要協同各個這個"},{"start":9302.492,"end":9321.253,"text":"區域的這些民主國家來共同達成一個集體嚇阻這樣子的一個政策我沒有看到改變也就是說他要求大家加強自我的防衛力量不是只有針對我們也包括對於可是日本都講了台灣就是他出兵但是美國都沒有說他出兵"},{"start":9322.093,"end":9332.56,"text":"拜登說有 川普到現在為止沒有說他要出兵幫忙換位 台灣沒有你講那個比較形容詞委員的問題應該就是說美國的態度他在這一件事情上面我是認為他還是以實力來尋求和平這樣的態度那是你解讀了你回答我剛才的問題就是要掉一台的事情"},{"start":9348.363,"end":9373.864,"text":"我們會有一個應變區的一個規劃那麼進入我們應變區的我們都會因應什麼意思 什麼叫應變區就是只要進入應變區的那如果是屬於 具體一點可以嗎中國的海警船我們就用海巡讓我們軍艦支援那如果是屬於軍艦進來我們的應變區我們就以軍艦來對應那現在我們的海巡署的船沒有看到"},{"start":9376.203,"end":9389.488,"text":"我想就要看有沒有進入我們的應變區如果有進入我們應變區我們海型就會對應那是多大 在幾海裡我們的應變區的話 我想可能如果委員需要了解我們在私下再跟委員做一個說明好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":9399.755,"end":9416.373,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀第一案第一案 中共對我國立法委員沈伯陽進行立案調查云與通緝一事中共對我國國人皆無管轄權又我國屬民主國家即便意識形態不同"},{"start":9417.014,"end":9442.908,"text":"人民人身安全及言論自由接受中華民國憲法保障本會委員沈博洋受中共立案調查一事其言論應予以維護否則民主自由體制必難以存續更是攻擊我國憲政制度之核心本會應呼籲中共自我克制並予以嚴厲譴責其二人委員王定宇 林楚英 盧美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":9445.993,"end":9467.081,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有需要說明的部分我簡單說一下謝謝主席本席提案按由剛才已經宣讀那基本的原則是不容許中國以中共的政治目的政治標準對台灣的任何國人任何一位"},{"start":9468.241,"end":9485.966,"text":"進行長臂管轄 跨境鎮壓中華人民共和國沒有司法管轄權中華民國不歸他管這是一個基本態度我們在國家我們的國家範圍內我們在自由的世界中不管任何主張接受我們憲法所保護"},{"start":9487.287,"end":9508.193,"text":"包括我們在場國軍是憲法的部隊接受憲法所保護中華人民共和國無權以這種莫須有的理由對任何人任何人 我在強調是任何人這不是一個人的事情進行這樣子的政治動作所以意見不同但是一樣有權受到國家跟憲法的保護"},{"start":9509.313,"end":9529.625,"text":"當然我們遺憾願不做那我們委員會應該可以來做特別這一次牽涉到是本委員會的同仁所以對於這個案子我們希望提案通過國防外交委員會呼籲中共作為一個大國要以文明崛起 贏得尊重老是這一種耍流氓手段"},{"start":9530.566,"end":9539.855,"text":"你只有大但沒有任何文明可言那我們給予最嚴厲的譴責希望本會能夠一致給予通過以上提案說明 謝謝請問其他在場委員有意見"},{"start":9549.284,"end":9566.142,"text":"我是連委員謝謝謝謝主席喔那麼有關於這個文字的部分喔整體我們都是支持王定宇委員跟我們的提案那麼在這個本會呼籲中共應自我克制我希望做一下這個文字的修正"},{"start":9578.908,"end":9599.295,"text":"文字修正的部分提案委員或其他委員我沒有意見我本來以為他要把自我克制改成因自我了斷但是沒關係我尊重他的文字修正語句比較順OK好那其他在場委員還有沒有其他意見沒有意見本提案照案通過修正通過現在請議事人員宣讀第二案"},{"start":9608.137,"end":9624.21,"text":"第二 國防大學作為國軍最高學府肩負培育具備現代化思維與戰略思維軍官的重責然而 從此以來校長及各級主管多由現役軍職幹部兼任導致學校文化偏重紀律服從"},{"start":9624.89,"end":9650.006,"text":"缺乏教育行政與學術治理的專業背景以部隊管理模式套用於學校運作的現狀限制了學術發展、創新思維的孕育以不符國防轉型與知識戰時代的需求為持續推動國防教育的現代化進程國防部應參考國際軍事院校的經驗建立軍事教育專業化與學術自主間的優化平衡機制"},{"start":9650.686,"end":9671.695,"text":"藉由學術專業來領導學術事務全面提升國防大學的教學品質專業研究能力及國際合作能量建築本席建議建請國防部研議軍事教育條例第八條及國防大學組織規程第七條條文修正之可行性建議依明文規定國防大學設置軍文"},{"start":9673.176,"end":9675.677,"text":"主席因為剛才我跟部長有溝通過我可以就把請國防部於兩個月改成三個月好"},{"start":9698.874,"end":9708.862,"text":"那其他委員有沒有需要說明的部分有沒有意見那國防部對於提案內容有無意見我們遵照辦理那本提案修正通過現在休息五分鐘五分鐘以後繼續詢答"},{"start":10074.288,"end":10078.189,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我請一下我們的顧部長還有我們採購室趙主任以及中科院院長趙主任還有李院長"},{"start":10101.3,"end":10126.954,"text":"所以問我也好好 部長我前兩天再度的去踢爆你們針對一個管制的黑名單廠商叫做豐益這個豐益公司的負責人叫做陳永培那這家公司在今年6月份已經被桃檢起訴那而這個公司在之前事實上"},{"start":10128.157,"end":10145.202,"text":"中科院就已經發現它的飛彈火箭的原料出現稀產地的問題它使用了陸製品但是它用作越南製那這個案子在去年4月我也開記者會"},{"start":10147.643,"end":10169.932,"text":"再度的踢爆這個事情那而後來我們的徐巧欣委員也在我們的國防外交委員會提出質詢當時我們的趙主任說中科院會把黑名單提供給軍方然後會做管制這都是去年4月的事情"},{"start":10170.592,"end":10197.937,"text":"但是竟然在今年這家公司繼續的得標而且呢我剛才講在桃檢已經給他起訴之後還繼續得標那麼他的相關公司一共就是得標了將近1億元9100多萬好那我現在要請教一下中科院到底有沒有把這個黑名單瘋疫公司提供給軍方有沒有"},{"start":10198.834,"end":10222.567,"text":"所以委員好我是國防採購室主任跟委員報告從委員質詢去年4月質詢之後我們當月就要求中科院提供名單當時第一份的名單是20家那目前最新的每月逐月逐月都提那這個最新的一份是40家到今天40家我們都不是這家風衣公司是在20家還是在40家之中"},{"start":10223.227,"end":10231.336,"text":"從第120家到現在的40家裡面 都在都在好 那如果都在的話 那請問一下為什麼今年還要給他得標呢竟然他已經把黑名單給你們了你說這個20家是什麼幾月 今年 今年初"},{"start":10242.128,"end":10257.314,"text":"包委員因為因為中科院拒絕往來廠商啊他是非政府採購法停權的廠商所以說他是可以這個所以可以繼續給他那請問一下這家廠商來我請院長來回答一下這家廠商你們給他停權停權時間是多久呢3年可以再延長從什麼時候開始停權從去年發生去年4月發生事情的時候我們就停權了"},{"start":10270.936,"end":10299.679,"text":"我這邊得到資料是113年2月他停權3年到116年的2月那所以中科院已經有把這個名單提供給國防部了是有提供給國防部但是呢剛才趙主任說雖然提供給國防部但是呢因為根據採購法他還是可以繼續得標是這個意思嗎停權是不能再參與我中科院的標還是我把他停權了是但是國防部就採購法來認定的話"},{"start":10300.836,"end":10322.842,"text":"是由國防部來認定 沒錯就是你們在去年的時候已經提供給國防部了對不對就說你認為你的責任已經盡到了好 那主任所以這個那幹嘛讓中科醫院提呢你們浪費這種時間幹什麼按照你的說法是說他還是可以繼續得標啊是這樣嗎"},{"start":10323.522,"end":10346.004,"text":"是 我們請中科院提供這個名單的 當時講的管制啊管制什麼就是管制這些黑名單在國防部的標案我們會持續針對強化在履約中個案的這個對場上的查查所以這個強化的結果是今年它的包含瘋疫還有它另外的什麼永冠 久移能夠將近1億元管制成這個樣子是嗎"},{"start":10347.185,"end":10361.502,"text":"沒有 我們是管制他履約不能夠違犯契約的內容另外我們也要求這個全軍啊因為我們也知道你們這樣有沒有問題嘛你這樣有沒有問題 好 來那個 因為我時間有限部長"},{"start":10363.099,"end":10380.475,"text":"剛才這樣子應該你很聰明啦你應該都聽懂他們什麼意思了讓中科院提供提供所謂的管制名單已經是被拒網戶囉已經被停權了三年然後提供給國防部照樣他這是三軍啊通通都在得標啊請問一下這樣的採購程序有沒有問題啊"},{"start":10385.366,"end":10405.339,"text":"跟委員報告大概分三點第一點就是說有關那個已經在他每個月提供以後那麼已經在旅業中的案件的話他就要強化旅業文件的查證增加房廠督檢的品質還有落實交貨驗收查驗來確保交貨的品質跟產地來源無疑這個是在旅業中的部分"},{"start":10405.979,"end":10423.099,"text":"那麼有關這個招標的這個部分呢如果它是屬於最有利標的方式的話它就會被納入這一個有關這一個等於是負面的這個記錄所以就會提交委員就把它列入這一個所以這家公司真的超級好"},{"start":10424.201,"end":10437.834,"text":"已經有被拘謊戶然後你們還用最有利標最有利標他就不能得標就最有利標他不能得標那現在委員問的就是說這些有得標的他是屬於最低標的那這個涉及到一個法律問題就是說"},{"start":10439.375,"end":10456.329,"text":"中科院它不是它是屬於自辦採購案所以它不是屬於政府採購法規範的停錢廠商所以現在有一個法律上的爭議就是說這些不屬於政府採購法的停錢廠商那如果我們辦的案子承攬國防部的這些所屬的標案假設是在"},{"start":10457.35,"end":10464.273,"text":"最低標的這個方式的話而不是才最有利標最有利標他沒有拿到那屬於最低標的這個方式的話他還沒有來投標的一個資格那如果他有投標的一個資格他得標了以後我們針對他履歷中的購案我們為了防範他違反契約我們叫相關單位持續要來落實我剛剛講的這些項目來確保交貨的品質跟產所以現在有關"},{"start":10483.022,"end":10506.249,"text":"對 那所以現在我跟委員報告就是說我們現在對於廠商的這個投標的這個資格我們現在會來跟工程會做一個探討就是說它屬於中科院自辦的這個部分而不是屬於被停權的這個部分我們可不可以在我們另外國防部的這個部分的招標文件限制這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":10508.709,"end":10524.256,"text":"來進行投標然後讓他的資格標你們會被要求限制嗎你們會被要求限制所以我們要跟工程會來其實還有另外一個喔這個是你剛剛講他是中科院的黑名單另外一個已經被起訴的案子在10月份繼續讓他得標這個有沒有問題一個被起訴的案件"},{"start":10530.502,"end":10549.211,"text":"這也是瘋疫公司 這就是委員講的瘋疫所以有沒有問題 你現在是怎樣而且在去年我們都有媒體披露委員開記者會 委員質詢然後你們說會管制 管制成這個樣子"},{"start":10550.512,"end":10569.9,"text":"所以跟委員報告我想我會請你們立刻防堵好嗎立刻檢討可不可以我現在就是在檢討這個案子然後相關的資格標有沒有構成他不能夠連資格標都不能夠來有符合這個資格根本的"},{"start":10570.765,"end":10578.749,"text":"不能夠來進行投標所以你的意思是中科院跟你國防部不是一家的啦中科院都已經是據網的名單然後你們國防部還覺得把三軍都包給他相關的其他機關如果是屬於採購法所訂定的然後已經被納入停權廠商的這個部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":10589.995,"end":10593.937,"text":"那現在的問題是中科院他並不是按照採購法那這沒有按照採購法的這個部分我們除了就旅業中的案件還有有關最有利標的都把他納入他不能夠絕標的不能夠來DROP這個標案也對於旅業中的案件加強督促以外關於其他的最低標的這個部分他能不能是"},{"start":10610.843,"end":10616.626,"text":"進入這個資格都沒有我會盡速的來進行這個檢討我很少看到你一直跳針這也代表你自己也覺得這個程序是怪怪的啦很奇怪所以請你們盡速的把這個漏洞給補起來好不好所以我們來跟工程會來確認不要再發生這樣的事情這樣子很扯啦大家會覺得這個瘋疫後台到底是有多大好不好"},{"start":10639.182,"end":10648.927,"text":"我想應該沒有沒有對我們來講沒有這樣的困擾那怎麼可以漏洞可以可以鑽那麼多然後還可以得那麼多的案子呢好不好我們盡數立刻檢討謝謝謝謝剛剛主任說的那個理由你們自己可以說服自己吧"},{"start":10656.109,"end":10662.652,"text":"中科院做的是我們他接的都是國防部給的預算他做的是飛彈現在有這樣的問題我們居然可以對這個廠商沒有辦法這樣是說得過去嗎這個法律條文相關的請提供給本委員會好不好那後續應該要怎麼處理國防部在處理其他的事情的時候都可以很決絕的"},{"start":10678.86,"end":10694.498,"text":"哪些可以哪些不可以甚至有些有條件的你們都可以拒絕像這樣子做我們國家的尤其是飛彈你們常常說陸製的有陸製的通通不可以可是所有的我們看到很多都是鑽這樣的漏洞"},{"start":10695.058,"end":10714.349,"text":"請把剛剛說的那個理由可以提供你的法律條文還有相關的疑義你要怎麼樣積極的去救這個案子其實應該就要馬上做處置不然你以後其實就不要做這樣的規定那如果有必要連中科院的一些相關的採購法都應該要做修正謝謝那接下來請林黛華委員林黛華林黛華委員不在請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":10730.962,"end":10733.263,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 謝謝請顧部長各位好部長 現在國防部預計要動用第二預備金6440萬要去發放加護的全民安全指引我想問一下因為有關於財政紀律先不講說這個發有沒有效益"},{"start":10756.636,"end":10772.207,"text":"因為第二預備金講的是比如說因應一些緊急狀況那我不知道為什麼國防部認為這那麼緊急為什麼不能夠直接編預算放在正常的公務預算然後讓立法院來審呢這個事情有那麼急嗎要用到第二預備金嗎"},{"start":10773.773,"end":10791.659,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是說我們資本印製的費用決標的金額是4279萬這第一點 第二點就是說依照預算法的70條第一款的規定就是說各機關原列的計畫費用因為適時的需要奉准這個修訂然後這原列這是原則嘛"},{"start":10792.719,"end":10806.825,"text":"不要一直念那個原則我們原則上是這樣但大家都知道為什麼會有第二預備金預備金是要預料一些就是一些沒有辦法預料的狀況所以要有一個預備金在那邊那如果你要編這個全民之音手冊實際上"},{"start":10808.225,"end":10836.469,"text":"你就可以預料啊比如說你明年你要發放那你就可以把預算變在明年拿來審嘛這個有急到那麼地步嗎原來是印五千本那後來因為這個政策主導之後我們現在要普發之後你普發可以明年再普發嘛你不急著一定要現在立刻普發有差兩個月台灣現在立刻要打仗了嘛我想就這一個不是 這個說不過去啦我覺得這個很擺明的就是要規避審查嘛"},{"start":10837.964,"end":10855.402,"text":"我想没有这样子的一个规定那你为什么不编在正常预算里面你有差这两三个月吗就刚刚讲的因为原来你讲说可以按照程序来说只要奉行政院合可都可以但是大家讲的是说第二预备应使用的用途跟性质嘛你这个东西没有到这么急嘛"},{"start":10856.192,"end":10882.698,"text":"第二一倍金的用途裡面也包括了原列計畫費用不足的問題但是這東西沒有那麼急嘛我覺得它的用途當然有一個優先順序在這邊就是說因應比較緊急的狀況那你這個東西實際上我覺得你晚兩個月三個月半年發大家都不會覺得有什麼奇怪的地方啊所以我覺得如果是磁力一開啊那都可以用這種方式規避監督了啦第二個"},{"start":10883.991,"end":10904.686,"text":"一般國防部會有一些什麼國防白皮書那個每兩年會發一次像國防白皮書的編輯是非常嚴謹的都會找學界各方的觀點然後大家一起來討論然後最後推出我想問一下這個全民安全指引有成立編輯委員會嗎"},{"start":10908.234,"end":10926.874,"text":"我想全民安全指引整個的這個籌編的一個過程因為是有跨部會的所以是由國安會來進行這一個所有的全民安全指引的手冊的一個編修那有 所以有編輯人會他編輯的方式是什麼"},{"start":10927.848,"end":10947.25,"text":"各單位把它的意見傳給國安會國安會就把它編成這本手冊是不是我們全動組會擔任秘書單位對 那全動組應該會知道它的編輯過程啊有詢問外面的專家學者嗎所以這個版本就是現在賴政府對於所有全民最想要傳遞的訊息是不是就濃縮在這個手冊裡面"},{"start":10949.752,"end":10973.92,"text":"我想這個相關的這些手冊跟過去的全民國防手冊有很大的不同它因為是比較是一個全民的安全指引所以它有參考這個相關的歐洲國家那也有請教這個專家學者的意見也有專家學者然後所以才編出來的那部長想必你已經看過這個手冊吧是你有看過嗎你覺得這個手冊編得好不好"},{"start":10975.171,"end":10991.41,"text":"我想在推出的時候各方的反應都還不錯有不錯嗎怎麼跟昨天那個國安會開記者會我在網路上看到的差很大很多人都覺得浪費錢很多人都說拿來蓋泡麵你覺得很不錯你覺得會達到效果"},{"start":10992.093,"end":11017.554,"text":"部長覺得會達到效果我覺得在強化這個全民安全意識上真的嗎 你真的這樣覺得嗎我認為提高全民防災避難的意識這個是有必要的當然要提高防災意識但是是不是採取這個方式嘛現在大家講的是方法嘛有沒有必要花六千多萬因為你除了印製之外你還要找地方人力去發送嘛有沒有必要做這個事嘛而且再第二個就是為什麼一定要印紙本我看國防部的說法是說為了要服務長者是不是"},{"start":11019.896,"end":11037.034,"text":"我想你如果參考其他包括捷克 瑞典 芬蘭 亞森尼亞他們都有普化資本是啦 別的國家是這樣所以你的意思是因為別人要我也要做純粹是這樣嗎純粹是這樣嗎在數位之外他們也不是一個在數位部分不划算的國家"},{"start":11037.895,"end":11063.904,"text":"那為什麼都要來普發最主要當然就是說要讓這個家戶到位之後他們對於這個任何這個危急狀況來臨的時候不管是天災或者其他的狀況不是 部長你的邏輯就是這樣你的邏輯是只要有普發就可以達到效果好像每一個人家裡面信箱多了這本手冊效果就提升了我覺得這個是大家很打折扣的地方很多人也許拿到丟掉"},{"start":11065.264,"end":11084.464,"text":"拿到之後拿去做別的用途拿到不打開你如果內容不夠實用不夠吸引人你一樣不會達到效果啊所以國防部怎麼會認為說我只要有做就一定達到效果我不知道你的科學根據是什麼啦那再來就是我看到權動署有回應就是說為什麼不是用數位的因為有數位落差有些長者他不會看數位是這樣嗎"},{"start":11085.405,"end":11105.457,"text":"那如果即便是這樣你也不見得要普發因為各縣市政府都有針對長者有列冊啊比如說發放老人研經啊或是打疫苗那你也可以採用別的方式直接把紙本發給長者也可以啊那你現在用全部普發方式你塞到一個信箱裡面第一個你怎麼知道那個信箱一定有住人第二個你怎麼知道那個一定有長輩因為我覺得這個做法"},{"start":11108.311,"end":11119.385,"text":"在還沒有經過很充分的討論的情況之下就直接動用第二預備金就發了而且我都還沒有講內容啊有的內容會讓我們感覺哇 這個緊急到是不是已經馬上要打仗了"},{"start":11119.915,"end":11139.923,"text":"譬如說有一個內容是叫大家分辨分辨說因為距離的關係所以你看到軍隊不見得知道那是敵軍還是我軍所以只要看到軍隊就趕快先避難裡面有一頁是這樣講如果在你們講的這麼緊急的情況之下台灣現在是不久後馬上要進入巷戰"},{"start":11141.215,"end":11165.378,"text":"我想台湾是一个很多天灾事故的地方所以不但只是您讲的这些状况也有应付到天然的重大灾害的状况都需要做这样的平时的准备然后在能够危急来临的时候才能够做好根据这个准备来让自己变得更安全"},{"start":11167.159,"end":11189.757,"text":"這裡面有很多可以檢討的地方發放的方式 內容的充實度還有預算的資用我覺得國防部這樣的做法完全是逃避捐都這真的是非常的專制就是你覺得OK但是其實花的都是人民納稅錢六千多萬也都是人民納稅錢這一筆是有算在我們的國防預算裡面嗎沒有 這個是行政院的第二一倍捐"},{"start":11190.75,"end":11218.506,"text":"我知道那問題是你用途就是國防預算的用途嘛所以這也沒有算在國防預算裡面因為是動用到第二預備金是對啊我們不是現在都政府都很強調就是說我的國防預算變多少代表說國防預算變得多就是我們重視國防嘛所以其實也是有很多不是在國防預算裡面我想國防預算那是一種你看要怎麼定義它的問題但是我只能夠說這個來源是行政院的第二預備金"},{"start":11219.628,"end":11233.361,"text":"這我當然知道所以我就覺得不合理我覺得國防部這樣做法大家都不太認同你們部長你應該去參考一下網路上大家的輿情反應不是說你們覺得有做就是好謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11239.383,"end":11256.392,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請黃仁委員黃仁黃仁委員不在請吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請徐富奎徐富奎徐富奎委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢主席好麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":11275.157,"end":11291.224,"text":"是 陳偉陽部長好 部長8月份的時候8月份的時候國軍有執行這個海空的精準彈藥射擊演訓那有發生這個印美的愛國者二型飛彈在發射之後的4秒鐘它有產生意外的事件"},{"start":11292.028,"end":11317.051,"text":"那之前這個包含媒體也有在詢問那我們的回應是說我們認為類似這樣子的演訓對我們來去檢視自己裝備的這個準備度還有它的良率還有它的臨時的反應都是有幫助的所以我也認為說其實在演習的時候發生事故剛好是可以讓我們檢討的一個很好的方式它可以釐清問題的癥結"},{"start":11318.852,"end":11342.526,"text":"但是事後國防部有說了他們會跟美方來去共同調查之後會給民眾一個說法或者是一個未來避免的解決方案那經過了三個月了那我想知道說是不是有初步的調查結果那是飛彈的本體的問題是發射程序的工作問題環境因素問題操作問題還是什麼樣的原因"},{"start":11343.883,"end":11368.289,"text":"保委員 跟您做個簡單的報告這個案子目前現在還在送美方的部分還在調查那我們這邊的調查初步已經排除了天氣跟人為的因素那朝機械的部分在做調查因為這個系統很複雜所以說我們要將這個紀錄器送到美方去做一個詳細的調查那這個部分我們跟美方同步都還在進行中"},{"start":11369.025,"end":11386.045,"text":"排除環境藝術排除發射程序工作問題環境藝術跟人為操作的問題都已經目前都已經排除所以可能是工程上面的包含是非常本體的問題這方面的資訊美方還在檢閱當中會最快的速度跟我們回應"},{"start":11387.006,"end":11404.571,"text":"那過去類似這樣子的像等於是我們重要的防衛系統飛彈的防衛系統那類似這樣子演練出現這種意外之後那到我們釐清真正的問題的所在大概通常都要花多久時間"},{"start":11405.287,"end":11422.524,"text":"包委員 這個要看狀況因為每一種一個飛彈系統本身是非常複雜那如果我們在實彈上的這個演練的話它因為沒有記錄器就是沒有所有的這個遙測資料可以下來所以說這個調查也不一定會有明確的一個結果"},{"start":11423.625,"end":11440.926,"text":"這個是在實彈設計上的一個限制那如果說是演訓上的話我們是可以把它改裝成遙測的這個部分但是這個部分跟實彈就會有一些差異所以各有利弊那這個調查的部分沒辦法跟委員報告說大概多久的時間會出來瞭解"},{"start":11441.647,"end":11469.088,"text":"那未來有沒有要增加演訓的頻率至少在實彈的部分會再考慮跟所有的因為這個跟戰備上也有很大的關係戰備演訓我們會綜合考量完了之後會做一個決定那每一年這在國防部都會做一個討論最近我們在看這個國防部的在關於愛國者飛彈的採購案那如同有一些我們的各種的軍購可能有相關的延宕"},{"start":11470.29,"end":11495.146,"text":"那原本是規劃2027年這一個會結案那現在說美國雷神要展延那我想請教一下這一個採購案會不會有延宕的可能性委員您指的是愛國者的採購案嗎對我們前面的採購案已經都已經在進行中所以說有管制說在2027年底的交運完畢"},{"start":11496.84,"end":11519.735,"text":"目前僅剩飛彈尚未交運完畢已經要求美方去合約執行這個是在第一我們就是全面的這個飛彈採購目前都是在進行中也是在進行中那就是會按照目前都是按計劃在進行中所以至少在這一個部分我們是按計劃進行中沒有延宕的問題嗎是OK好謝謝那再來想要請教部長這關於"},{"start":11521.836,"end":11537.704,"text":"感知的量能就是说不管是透过卫星的去感测或者是说用各种方式来去反制中共那我们都有很多的这个情监侦的系统不管雷达卫星等等都有"},{"start":11539.184,"end":11557.749,"text":"但是我們最近發現到一件事情就是說我們會跟很多的這種衛星的公司會有直接的合作但我們得到的是它的等於是raw data直接得到的是資訊但是我們分析的人員其實就是一定的數量所以我們可以得到很多大量的資訊"},{"start":11558.709,"end":11570.278,"text":"但是來去做判斷來去做分析當然是還是要由我們國防部的人員來去做分析因為數據自己本身沒有意義是人去做他的判斷跟分析"},{"start":11571.141,"end":11597.384,"text":"那現在很多民間的這種就在進行公開情資的研習包含IOGR這些民間組織都會定期去揭露中共的這些資訊那有一些什麼包含這個民間的這些組織之外有一些甚至是非本科系的這樣子的對國防有興趣的他都會自己努力來去做這些公開情報的揭露"},{"start":11598.004,"end":11620.669,"text":"那我們認為越透明越把公開的情報揭露給國際社會看那更能夠去延期共軍的動態或者是這個中共未來的方向我想請教像包含軍情局電展室一定都有相關的監測工具那甚至我相信他們得到的data一定會比或許會比民間更多很難說因為現在"},{"start":11623.229,"end":11645.221,"text":"從過去這個美國國防部他是主要的國防的投資人到現在公司比較起來的話私營的這種企業投入的金額甚至更大所以我譬如說過去是由國防或者是安全相關但是由政府一方面去做壟斷的但是現在隨著民間的科技技術然後還有他們的這種"},{"start":11646.721,"end":11671.892,"text":"一代一代的這種科技的更新速度都已經超過原本政府能夠採購的這種繁雜的程序所以包含美國之所以會有這一個他們有Defense Innovation Unit也好DIU或者是DIO等等就是為了要因應這種科技的快速商業的科技的快速的進展來去彌補說我們包含美國五角大廈一直在檢討的這種採購過程的長期"},{"start":11675.153,"end":11701.238,"text":"變成說會要經過太多的process會延宕來去無法應對最新科技的現代化那現在我們跟包含這一些民間協力公開的情資的研析或者是這一些民間的組織有沒有相關的合作或者是說有沒有一些相關的協助讓我們能夠除了由國防部本身由國家之外"},{"start":11701.738,"end":11706.344,"text":"甚至一邊的民間都可以參與讓我們的防衛跟安全能夠更上一步"},{"start":11708.427,"end":11732.655,"text":"委員的意思應該有分兩層一個是跟民間人士合作一個是說我們根據這個所謂的公開情誌就Ocean的這樣子的一個情誌來源然後導入我們的這個系統裡面一併去做分析我想這兩個又略有不同所以我想你用這個公開這個情誌來源然後去做分析這是我們現在已經在做的部分"},{"start":11733.335,"end":11750.63,"text":"那跟民間人士的這個合作可能要看涉及到一個機密跟就是說有涉及到國防機密跟軍事機密要不洩露的一個情況之下我們會跟民間人士來做一些交流這樣子"},{"start":11751.711,"end":11778.397,"text":"在2016年的時候大概2015年2016年的時候那個時候美國有一個叫做MD5就是軍事第五區的一個概念那個概念就是說他們結合包含他們的一些各個頂尖的大學理工的大學也有研究國際關係的大學也有跟美國的這些國防相關的這些實驗室他們把它做一個開放"},{"start":11779.077,"end":11801.976,"text":"讓這一些學生能夠針對一些由美國國防部他設計的專案讓他們直接進入國防領域國防產業裡面也就是說他們包含把創投融合進來把產官學融合進來讓這一些學生能夠在或者是不見得是學生可能是業界的人士能夠有四到八週的訓練課程這四到八週他們"},{"start":11802.737,"end":11828.878,"text":"首先當然要做security clearance就是把他們的背景先審查完之後這些經授權的這一些學術人員或者是學生或者是這些相關的科技人員去跟美國各個基地來去他們交流之後由這些各個基地提出他們的問題如果是空軍的話可能是提出怎麼樣可以更快速的做維修或者是如果是陸軍的話可能是他們的穿戴的設備怎麼樣來去做改進由"},{"start":11830.499,"end":11856.823,"text":"國防部做一個統籌讓他們可以用他們的實驗室用他們的設備 用他們的資源提出解決方案也就是由這個地方開始慢慢的才會有DIU DIO的概念因為他們在先端的做法有成功的打入他們的國防體系有一些新創公司成功的進入他們的國防體系所以才會有後來的DIU或DIO真正的來去把採購過程的縮短或者是說把這些科技應用在美國的群訪"},{"start":11857.463,"end":11875.1,"text":"它是經過10年左右的試驗我大概是在2016年 2015年的時候也有提出相關的文章來去做這個簡報發覺到現在由於科技的速度更快我們可親近性的這種能力也更快以前這種衛星的你說間諜衛星也好"},{"start":11875.62,"end":11901.058,"text":"他的精度是必須由政府的所掌控的這些艦艇衛星才能夠看到我們一些軍事設置現在是商業的衛星其實都可以做到相當的程度那包含各種不同的衛星你說遙測的或者是說他可能是用其他的這個SAR還是用各種其他的雷達技術等等我們必須要盡快的把這個gap民間跟軍方上面能夠做一個統合因為我們面對的是中國這一個"},{"start":11902.338,"end":11919.992,"text":"資本是非常重的一個國家他們把大量的資本投入他們的國防技術不計成本 不計開銷就算我們國家就算投入一兆也好比起中國的這一個他們國家的投入的資金還是有點差別我們唯一能夠做的就是把"},{"start":11921.333,"end":11944.107,"text":"這種蓬勃發展的民間的產業 民間的企業我們的製造也好 我們的科技也好或者是我們的這個對國防相關是有興趣的產官協科技人士也好 創投人士也好 新創也好結合在一起的話那我們在量跟值就是有機會跟中共來去做一個對抗啦那我還是希望說"},{"start":11945.388,"end":11972.983,"text":"盡量想辦法把它擴大化讓更多的參與方進來這樣我們的scale才夠大我們的量夠大能力才能夠提升剛剛委員一開始問的是情資的分享的這個概念另外下來如果委員問的是一個共同研發的概念我可以跟委員講就是說我們包括跟學校包括跟產業我們都已經有在進行只是說這個地方就有它一定的機敏性那這些人員都要做查核"},{"start":11973.263,"end":12002.708,"text":"也要做某種程度的管制那這些都有在進行創投的話或者是這些Venture的這些資源可以進來嗎創投應該它是要去做那個投資的部分那這個投資在我們的這個不管是國內的或國外的軍工產業就這個部分創投當然也是一個要屬於要進行的方向不過這個部分比較主要屬於國發會他們那個部分在主導"},{"start":12004.71,"end":12025.291,"text":"還是可以想一下因為很多新興的團隊以前就像我們剛才提到的其實五角大廈也好或者是他們作為一個平台去對接的對象就是讓這些小小的新創團隊慢慢的可以成為來去承接他們的國防產業的如果你講的是對新創的投資就剛剛講的投資這個就屬於"},{"start":12028.213,"end":12047.683,"text":"這個要去找到一個適合的一個標的他需要有資金的需求一般來講上市公司比較沒有那不是上市公司 新創公司可能會有那這個會由國安會來進行評估那國安會有相關的這種對於安全國防的有相關的在進行中好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":12066.701,"end":12068.726,"text":"好 謝謝召委 有請顧部長請顧部長部長午安"},{"start":12078.851,"end":12104.503,"text":"部長有關心理健康的相關議題在國軍工作環境的這種特殊性還有勤務日益繁重之下我們的官兵心理衛生的工作也應該受到高度的重視我想先從初級發掘的階段來和部長您做討論早期的發掘固然很重要但是在現實層面上預防始終難以落實"},{"start":12106.504,"end":12122.742,"text":"先前就有審計部的審核報告當中指出有158名的智商人員其中130名在案發前是沒有經過初級發掘的輔導也就是漏接率偏高的問題"},{"start":12123.863,"end":12150.149,"text":"當然我們也知道這個基層官兵的這個業務相當繁重可能很難去做到人人都是守門人的這個階段更不可能全部都靠我們輔導長來負責那在這個基層人力吃緊日常的這個業務又相當繁重的這種情況之下我想請教部長我們在這個初級的這個階段怎麼做到有效的發掘並且能夠及時的介入"},{"start":12151.91,"end":12174.194,"text":"我們所以在今年2月有實施一個尋求外部資源的一個心理健康照護方案那這樣子他就可以主動就是說他可能覺得跟部隊反應會有壓力那他尋求這個民間的資源那我們才會有這個328所的民間的資商那他不需要有任何的轉介"},{"start":12174.827,"end":12191.085,"text":"那他自己也對他的隱私有所保障的情況下他是去尋求主動來進行這個諮商的一個協助那我想這個部分會讓他比較願意去在初步的這個階段就願意去"},{"start":12191.886,"end":12221.332,"text":"那後續如果說這個跟我們合作的機構他經過這樣來主動求助以後如果他發現這個是具有高風險的時候那再把這個高風險的部分轉移給到我們的地區心理衛生中心我們就可以直接來進行這個專業的處遇那這樣的話我想就可以把這些高風險的這個部分降到最低那另外有關初步他去尋求這個求助的部分他可以也維持他的隱私"},{"start":12222.194,"end":12241.889,"text":"那化解我們在初級化解預防的這一塊他可能會面臨的一些壓力或者是我們的部隊在這個部分的警覺不足的這方面的彌補也就是透過跟民間合作嘛對 全球民間的資源對 民間資源合作那我們目前這個成效如何"},{"start":12243.155,"end":12258.032,"text":"我們因為是今年2月才開始到10月31號為止已經有過4860人次的這個去做然後自主約的比例是97%所以自主約的比例是蠻高的好那在這個報告當中我們有"},{"start":12260.414,"end":12282.165,"text":"這個提到說這個量表施測的部分那據我所知我們國防部從去年的6月要求除了部分單位因為這個執行任務受限之外其他的部隊目前都是使用這個依新守護這個APP來做施測那施測的頻率是每季配合我們戰演訓任務時機來實施在這個測驗結果會由APP系統來判讀"},{"start":12290.149,"end":12310.855,"text":"如果有重度情緒困擾的高風險人員我們就會用手機訊息來協助新府官和單位幹部來掌握針對這個APP的使用我想了解的是我們從智商的案例往回推有多少是從量表能夠看出異常的"},{"start":12311.395,"end":12335.761,"text":"在今年發掘心理困擾的這個7749名的官兵當中又有多少是經由這個APP發出警訊讓我們能夠發現的那國安部對於這個新府量表的施測效果如何檢討那這部分是請部長請要說明一下它這個量表其實我們有分兩種委員提到這個是屬於APP的部分那APP的部分我們"},{"start":12336.821,"end":12359.583,"text":"大概是由幹部來做那這個是提供一個官兵的一個一個心緒狀況的一個掌握那經由APP的個案114年來看的話大概有大概4890大概近5000大概從這個地方可以看到有一些算是心緒有一些"},{"start":12360.223,"end":12379.753,"text":"不穩需要介入輔導的一個狀態那另外其實還有一個一個量表的部分我們是在做年度體檢心理健康檢查的時候這個時候是由我們的身心科醫師跟心理師還是公司去做做了量表之後還會做一些訪談這個部分軍醫局要不要補充一下"},{"start":12382.077,"end":12405.59,"text":"委員好 那軍事局為了補強在我們的初級跟第二級的心理的這些篩選所以利用我們每年國軍體檢所有的國軍志願役士兵的體檢都會增加一站叫心理健康專區會由精神科醫師或精神心理師跟社工師來做評估"},{"start":12407.671,"end":12420.231,"text":"那這樣的成效也是相當的好等於說在部隊沒有發掘的利用每年的體檢的時機也可以增加多一層的篩選在體檢的過程就先因為體檢每年都要做"},{"start":12422.847,"end":12450.682,"text":"那另外有關這個目前所執行的這個二級的介入輔導還有這個三級的專業處遇他所涉及的這個專業和權責有幾個問題想來請教部長我們現行這個國軍所進行的心理輔導是否有涉及到這個心理師的業務範疇那如果由非專業的這個心理師從事心理輔導甚至是心理智商有沒有潛在的一個風險"},{"start":12451.943,"end":12466.485,"text":"那倘若這個心理諮商是屬於醫療行為部長我們是不是可以考慮由國防部體系下的這個軍醫局來負責跟委員報告就是二級他只是輔導他沒有到達能夠心理諮商的"},{"start":12468.247,"end":12491.519,"text":"所以才會有三級三級的話就是包括了國軍醫院精神科醫師然後還有我們在桃園台中高雄花蓮的地區的心理衛生中心那這個幾個地區的人他就具有證照具有相關的證照那就可以做專業的心理智商那所以這個還是有區隔好"},{"start":12493.154,"end":12514.367,"text":"那從這次這個報告當中也有提到在今年我們官兵求助的這個樣態當中以這個新訓單位的人員比較明顯尤其是這個二兵還有哨衛級的這個軍官四支顯示我們新進的人員確實有心理照護的這個需求"},{"start":12514.887,"end":12536.162,"text":"那我們新進的官兵在融入部隊生活的過程中難免會遇到不適應的狀況這部分我想請教部長我們在對於新進人員尤其是一年期的義務役有沒有針對這些官兵的輔導工作進行加強目前各新訓單位的輔導量能是否充足"},{"start":12537.973,"end":12557.005,"text":"跟委員報告,就是說醫務役入伍或者是任何新進人員的話,我們就會分這個階段,大概包括入伍一週內,還有薪子報到的一到三個月內,還有一個美季,那就分別實施這個國軍的心理健康的一個品量表。"},{"start":12559.248,"end":12574.382,"text":"現在就會來讓這個來還有這個身心狀況量評量表還有檢視的健康量表然後這個分別來做那我們來瞭解這些新進人員的一個身心狀態都有確實在落實"},{"start":12575.963,"end":12603.383,"text":"我們從這幾次我們台灣所發生的風災都有國軍我們官兵投入救災的第一線協助我們相關救援的任務面對災區滿目瘡痍的景象必須做好充足的心理建設在整個過程搶救完畢之後我們這些官兵我想我們也需要特別留意的是"},{"start":12604.403,"end":12619.329,"text":"避免他們的心理健康受到相關的影響那這個部分我想請教部長就是我們對於這個投入救災的這些官兵在完成救災任務之後是否都有安排相關的這個輔導工作那我們現在的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":12621.346,"end":12648.172,"text":"向委員報告我們的官兵他的單位只要投入到救災的這個任務單位就要派遣心腹官一開始就派遣心腹官陪同讓他們能夠掌握官兵的一個心虛狀況那麼救災任務結束之後我們會針對救災官兵的心理狀況做一個心理壓力的一個檢核措施那麼在檢核出來有異常狀況的我們會持續去追蹤看就是要進行到二級輔導或者到三級處遇的階段"},{"start":12650.413,"end":12675.588,"text":"那這個部分我們都會持續來做那就持續追蹤我想我們針對這個官兵的這個心理照護還有這些心理衛生工作大部分僅能夠作為補救的相關措施那未來除了這個強化心腹的專業之外我們還是要回過頭來對於這個人力的配置內部的管理甚至"},{"start":12676.188,"end":12693.777,"text":"部隊整個文化等等一併進行檢討改善才能夠有效來照顧到我們官兵的心理健康唯有這個國軍的這些我們士官兵心理健康才能夠確保他們保家衛國的一個量能"},{"start":12695.157,"end":12705.423,"text":"這部分是不是請我們國防部還有我們相關部會來重視對 我們想新武的工作應該都要持續來加強持續來加強好 以上謝謝部長的這個答詢謝謝委員謝謝接下來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在"},{"start":12726.206,"end":12754.841,"text":"今天已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳永康委員黃仁委員林黛華委員徐富奎委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限則從期鎖定本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},{"id":"165619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1dc22ad76ccad6b6e0799e8a58cec5c3e90886039ce1be0fdadd9719833d2fe3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:42:44 - 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這雖然看似是一個小問題但本席就是要表達就是說這樣看起來你們好像沒有很在意部長 我想要表達的是你可能在醫政上面你過去在健保署等等 你很專業可是你在這上面是不是應該要更加用心一點 部長希望部長可以多在意這個所謂的社政的部分會 一樣的重視"},{"start":88.391,"end":109.227,"text":"所以回到報告內容喔19年的版說成立集中派案窗口後總計受理26萬餘件的保護性或脆弱家庭的通報案件並且可以快速的篩出22%的錯誤通報及重複通報案件那且98%的案件可以24小時內完成派案評估部長認為這98%的數字是滿意的嗎"},{"start":113.742,"end":129.713,"text":"我們當然希望是百分之百啦你希望是百分之百好我接下來跟你講這就會發生什麼問題我們當然希望越高越好但是同樣監察院的報告當中卻點出了衛福部系統性的問題首先是通報案件爆量"},{"start":130.253,"end":148.26,"text":"比預估高出10倍還沒有完全到位的社工人力根本沒有辦法應付好第二個仍然不夠清楚的分案標準是否開案的爭議以及受限的派案機制讓派案中心承受著接案時跟網絡各單位跟社政單位的爭執內耗與壓力"},{"start":150.905,"end":169.67,"text":"所以顯然要告訴部長的是報告書說這個高達90%好像近乎完美的派案成果完全不同喔所以部長認為這樣子所謂的這個報案量然後宣傳很有效以及這樣子的KPI你確定這樣的KPI是設定正確沒有問題的嗎"},{"start":171.23,"end":183.281,"text":"當然從這個通報案數來講我們還是得跟實際上的這個流行病學的研究的比例來看它確實還是underreport它還是有gap所以我們還是要繼續去鼓勵這個通報出來"},{"start":188.385,"end":210.266,"text":"求救啦 就是受害者要去求救那第二個是人力的部分對 我想要跟你說的就是今天討論這個議題本身科技監控是一個方法而已我們是想要真的從根本上降低家暴以及家暴防治今天時間不夠可是我會盡量講快一點所以我要跟你說的是你這樣的KPI設定應該是有問題的"},{"start":211.407,"end":234.463,"text":"隨著你的宣導越多的時候你的案量會越多沒有錯但是問題是你人力不足那你怎麼辦所以你的精準識別高風險就是很重要的一環可是看起來是沒有辦法的因為現在看起來就是這個部分就是一個根本性的問題所以你連KPI如果都設定錯的情況之下這樣就會導致大家就是徒勞無功而且瞎忙"},{"start":236.021,"end":255.051,"text":"因為社工已經很辛苦了你如果沒有精準的分辨出高風險的時候你就會導致大家有個惡性循環所以本席認為你應該要重新檢討你的不要將通報量作為你們美化政府在這部分努力的數據通報量根本不是所謂的真正有效"},{"start":255.871,"end":266.086,"text":"通報量你只能夠說你宣導有效但是你沒有辦法根本上解決問題甚至還可能導致案件壓力過大讓社工要離職喔所以你應該要公布所謂高風險個案鑑別失敗率"},{"start":269.574,"end":297.911,"text":"還有脆弱家庭服務轉型結案後的再通報率你結案了應該是要應該是要這個到底是怎麼樣的真實數據這應該是你們真正的KPI你們真正要去關注的對吧這兩個這個指標後段的這個脆弱家庭再通報現在已經納入了那前面這個確實這個我們要回頭去檢視我們現在用的工具跟方法對於這個高風險個案的鑑別的正確率如何"},{"start":298.491,"end":315.526,"text":"所以這是我要告訴你們的請你們要去檢討這是第一件事這還是第一部分而已我們今天剛剛一直有人說到底電子監控有沒有用我們等一下再講到電子監控第二部分剛剛講到社工社工所處的情況也不容樂觀111年你們的調查說5824名社安網裡面的社工"},{"start":319.83,"end":336.827,"text":"高達1188人遭受到這個口語威脅辱罵肢體傷害那高雄市的社工工會更驚爆每三天就有一名社工可能受到身體傷害惡劣的環境讓社工慌所以桃園市為例近三年社工平均離職率高達17%"},{"start":338.709,"end":366.018,"text":"但是脆弱家庭通報每年9500件啊余件啊所以社工的缺口連年破百所以這個跟剛剛就有一個惡性循環出生社安網的頂層設計的失敗案量預估錯誤導致案量也有可能大量的太多而且沒有精準的找到案量第二個社工在這樣高案量高暴力高壓力難以精緻處理個案的情況之下導致敏感度的鈍化"},{"start":367.506,"end":392.333,"text":"第三高風險高風險的個案失敗社工就會反遭被究責甚至可能有什麼上銬啊或者是被社會的輿論壓力所以社工就會覺得說高壓低支持的情況之下選擇用腳投票就是離開好就搞導致高離職率然後有經驗的社工大量流失新進的社工更難應對導致系統性的進一步惡化你同意吧"},{"start":393.957,"end":419.364,"text":"對 這個我非常同意就是對於社工我們不能夠這樣苛責啦以目前的這樣的工作的型態那我們也在這個未來的那個社安網2.0裡面我們去擴編這個社工的人力部長 剛剛兩個就是要告訴你現況就是這樣子所以你的KPI你的績效到底要怎麼評估你們應該要從頭從頂層設計去全方位的檢討這是第一部分接下來是保護令"},{"start":420.444,"end":444.744,"text":"保護令剛剛有委員說保護令很有效可是我要告訴你保護令其實是沒有什麼效因為還是發生了很多的案件所以譬如說逐年升高剛剛也有委員講說違反保護令的案件2021年可能3721到2024年變成4497如果數據沒有那麼精確有錯誤你也可以糾正我每年家暴平均可能有3300多件那其實"},{"start":448.269,"end":449.977,"text":"這一些保護令出來之後"},{"start":451.178,"end":479.614,"text":"沒有辦法及時的預警所以近三年這個加害者加害者生壓率就是只有6到7%那一樣是加報防治書但是其實也有另外一個數據說如果是檢察官生壓 申請羈押羈押率有高達七成也高於一般犯罪率所以顯示其實這個是有問題存在因為代表檢察官如果真的到法院去說要這件事這個部分我想"},{"start":480.334,"end":488.299,"text":"這個也可以請司法院法務部都上來在旁邊好了所以這就是一個很奇怪的部分"},{"start":489.813,"end":510.722,"text":"所以代表說什麼代表說這個保護令其實也可能有出現很大的漏洞所以剛我講的是不是屬實就是這樣的相關數據譬如說檢察官如果申請生壓的話核准生壓可能有到七成可是在所有的家暴案件裡面受害者想要去想要去申請這個生壓真正的比率只有6到7%剛剛應該有委員提到對不對"},{"start":513.932,"end":542.71,"text":"跟委员报告就是说这个申请羁押率那他的数据是来自于家暴案件所有家暴案件数因为这个家暴案件数有大部分可能是用含送而非现行犯移送的也就是说他不是把人拘捕之后移送到检察官这边来因此这个数这个比例会比较低的原因可能是因为在这边所以我们可能回去还要再去确认就是说以现行犯移送就是有拘捕被告到检察官这边的那我们的生涯率是多少"},{"start":542.93,"end":562.669,"text":"對嘛所以這些數據你都沒有或是你們應該要再去確認那你怎麼可以說現在的保護令是真的好像剛剛有委員說其實是很有效的我覺得這我沒有辦法認同所以這部分請你們回去提供本席辦公室數據好嗎再來就是今天的重要的重點科技監控的部分"},{"start":563.891,"end":580.174,"text":"其實在場還有包含警政署警政署的代表也上來當初邱太元部長在這裡的時候本席也質詢一樣是各部會在這裡我問每一個部會對於科技監控的態度我再問一次林園已經換了部長請問一下石部長你對於"},{"start":581.363,"end":607.736,"text":"科技監控在家暴裡面的科技監控這一塊甚至入法部分你的態度是什麼就是以科技的工具來強化這個對被害人的保護這個我們方向上是支持的只是在執行上如何去執行能夠兼顧到這個個人的隱私跟執行的效果這個我們必須要再好再講一次個人隱私你說是哪個部分的個人隱私就是包含這個被害"},{"start":610.86,"end":622.614,"text":"所有的隱私資訊或者他的被害者的個人隱私對 他的生活的被介入你是擔心被害者的個人隱私對 還有他可能會不會帶來反效果這個"},{"start":624.316,"end":652.356,"text":"部長我跟你說啊所以你覺得隱私還有人權是一個很大的問題對不對你覺得隱私和人權是很大的問題嗎好那我想要請問一下美國是不是人權國家英國是不是人權國家法國西班牙是不是人權國家請問是不是我原提的這當然都是是那他們有沒有用電子監控重視人權的國家啦有嘛那他們有沒有用電子監控怎麼樣的去執行我們再來生就之後那你訂出這是第一個人權的我的回應啊"},{"start":653.397,"end":660.084,"text":"所以現在有很多 現在也都有在直播所以我覺得人權這是一件在拖延的藉口"},{"start":661.277,"end":684.338,"text":"你所謂的人權這些國家都是人權國家他們也用了這個科技這是第一件事第二件事你說隱私權受害者隱私權請問我跟你說也有研究報告顯示就是你剛說隱私權還有這個生活覺得說生活被拘束好我跟你說也有報告顯示說這些被家暴的受害者認為有了電子監控之後他的生活更自在更自由"},{"start":685.339,"end":697.682,"text":"因為他不用擔心在被家暴如果你沒有電子清空的情況之下很多人要住進去哪裡對不對去庇護所你也點頭要去庇護所他進去庇護所他到底是更自由還是更不自由"},{"start":698.956,"end":727.458,"text":"那這就是一個很大的問題再者你的庇護所也不夠嘛你長期的庇護所也不夠嘛所以這兩個理由在本席看來是推脫的理由我剛剛也回答這是推脫的理由因為這些國家也都有在做這個事再者 要用 不過剛委員說明齁其實不是每個國家這麼做那即使是在澳洲也是有事辦像您看到的這樣所以表示說這件事情的執行上確實是有爭議要小心的"},{"start":728.038,"end":748.067,"text":"再來我是要跟你說不要用推脫的方式你們應該要盡速研議再來剛剛你說的這個你說包含這科技監控的部分你覺得會有人權的問題啦或者是要有爭議的問題剛剛我們也討論到這個是不是被害者想要做他要知情的情況之下才會做"},{"start":748.447,"end":770.496,"text":"一定要對嘛那你覺得這裡的配套完全尊重對所以不是代表他一定馬上要使用嘛所以你剛剛的這個隱私權自由權或者知情權你又打自己的臉了不是嗎即使是在他同意的情形之下我們也要有妥善的配套很多在知情之下執行的政策仍然可能傷害到他個人"},{"start":770.996,"end":795.395,"text":"妥善的配套所以所以我沒關係現在你的態度是說你支持這個方向可是要妥善的配套是這個意思好那我想要請問因為這次的回答跟上次的邱部長就不太一樣邱部長表示的支持度更高好支持度更高還說一個月內要跨部會這個研議呀好但是看起來你們也只開了一次會那接下來換這個法務部你們的態度呢"},{"start":798.332,"end":826.901,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上這個立法目的我們是非常的認同也就是說強化對於這個被害人的保護但這個你只認同立法目的但是你沒有認同這個電子科技監控這個針對這個措施那他可能會收集到這個相關被害人他的一些資訊的部分還是資訊隱私的問題可是剛剛不是已經回答了嗎對就是我想那個衛福部他們也會有非常完整的一個研議之後那所以你的態度是支持不支持你們你們的部分"},{"start":827.738,"end":855.669,"text":"我們就是尊重這個衛福部他們的這個所以你是尊重衛福部只要衛福部立法你們就支持我們尊重衛福部主管機關的演繹好那請問這個司法院報告委員我們的立場是支持但我們有兩個報告第一個就是說在民事保護令裡面為確保這個遠離令裡面讓被害人有相當"},{"start":856.849,"end":877.741,"text":"保護他的安全這樣的科控是絕對正確的那這個科控在比例上我們要加上一些高風險的評估這樣讓法官裁量這是第一個部分那第二個部分當然一定要被害人同意那因為有兩個部分在國際的都是這樣所以這就是相對的配套了嘛對不對"},{"start":880.123,"end":905.99,"text":"那就在國際上他兩個部分一個就是說叫做定點科控一個叫做隨著被害人的移動科控雙向那這個要被害人同意當然要被害人同意剛剛講過被害人完全知情的時候我們同意在這個法令這是第一部分那事實上你有這個電子監控本來就是為了被害人被受害者被害人去設立的目前原理論是"},{"start":907.99,"end":919.331,"text":"目前年齡率是以這個住居所上班場所以及特定出入場所沒關係 這是一些技術細節啊但是你們的部分是支持嘛 對不對好 謝謝 那請問警政署"},{"start":922.573,"end":943.772,"text":"委員好 只要能夠減少這種家暴案件憾事的發生 本署都是支持那同樣的 相關的配套措施 就等待中央主管部會他們來研議 我們就配合來幫忙好 警政署支持 其實我也認為是應該要因為你的人力也不可能隨時保護令出現問題的時候你衝到現場 你也來不及嘛當然"},{"start":944.592,"end":973.123,"text":"對啊 當然 所以我還是想要重申謝謝 請署長回答我還是要跟部長重申其實你也可以聽到不管是司法院或是警政署其實他們配套也蠻明確的啦那你們到底在猶豫什麼呢我本席要告訴你們請你們盡速因為我剛剛不是只針對電子科技監控這只不過是最末端的一個問題而已包含這個電子監控的部分還有包含受害人處置的部分你們也是相對投入的資源根本不足啊"},{"start":973.863,"end":995.356,"text":"所以你說發生之後要讓這個加害人怎麼處置要讓他可以矯正他的行為這個你們都今天還沒有時間討論到所以從剛開始的你的KPI的設計到社工的出了問題所以才會說現在的漏網之語漏洞這麼大才會想到說那是不是參照國際的方式去用所謂的電子監控的技術"},{"start":996.517,"end":1022.306,"text":"所以本席希望你們儘速 今天是大體討論但是希望你們儘速研議 請儘速提出修法方向而且要往這方向所謂的相關配套因為本席要提醒你們這根本就是看執政黨願不願意做執政黨看起來用這些方式在用推脫的就像當初就業服務法廢除巴士量表的時候你跟我們說上路根本來不及所以你們需要時間配套"},{"start":1023.306,"end":1050.707,"text":"大院立法院也給了勞動部時間配套結果到了六七個月以後去實施發現根本沒有這麼多人申請發現這樣子的制度也有受這個加匯到非常多需要的人所以本席要說我們要盡速的推動不要用這些理由所謂的隱私權人權剛剛都已經回應過了我覺得這是一個非常拖一拖和拖這個希望立法延後的狀況這段時間有多少受害者如果又受害了"},{"start":1051.528,"end":1056.292,"text":"有多少受害者受害了 那誰要負責 誰要下台以上 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跟您做個簡單的報告這個案子目前現在還在送美方的部分還在調查那我們這邊的調查初步已經排除了天氣跟人為的因素那朝機械的部分在做調查因為這個系統很複雜所以說我們要將這個紀錄器送到美方去做一個詳細的調查那這個部分我們跟美方同步都還在進行中"},{"start":105.066,"end":122.086,"text":"排除環境藝術 排除發射程序工作問題環境藝術跟人為操作的問題都已經目前都已經排除所以可能是工程上面的包含是非常本體的問題這方面的資訊 美方還在檢閱當中會最快的速度跟我們回應"},{"start":123.047,"end":140.628,"text":"那過去類似這樣子的,像等於是我們重要的防衛系統,飛彈的防衛系統,那類似這樣子演練出現這種意外之後,那到我們釐清真正的問題的所在,大概通常都要花多久時間?"},{"start":141.328,"end":158.579,"text":"包委員 這個要看狀況因為每一種一個飛彈系統本身是非常複雜那如果我們在實彈上的這個演練的話它因為沒有記錄器就是沒有所有的這個謠冊資料可以下來所以說這個調查也不一定會有明確的一個結果"},{"start":159.66,"end":176.948,"text":"這個是在實彈設計上的一個限制那如果說是演訓上的話我們是可以把它改裝成遙測的這個部分但是這個部分跟實彈就會有一些差異所以各有利弊那這個調查的部分沒辦法跟委員報告說大概多久的時間會出來瞭解"},{"start":177.708,"end":205.158,"text":"那未來有沒有要增加演訓的頻率至少在實彈的部分會再考慮跟所有的因為這個跟戰備上也有很大的關係戰備演訓我們會綜合考量完了之後會做一個決定那每一年這在國防部都會做一個討論最近我們在看這個國防部的在關於愛國者飛彈的採購案那如同有一些我們的各種的軍購可能有相關的延宕"},{"start":206.331,"end":231.177,"text":"那原本是規劃2027年這一個會結案那現在說美國雷神要展延那我想請教一下這一個採購案會不會有延宕的可能性委員您指的是愛國者的採購案嗎對對對我們前面的採購案已經都已經在進行中所以說有管制說在2027年底的交運完畢"},{"start":232.881,"end":255.766,"text":"目前僅剩飛彈尚未交運完畢已經要求美方去合約執行這個是在第一我們就是全面的這個飛彈採購目前都是在進行中也是在進行中那就是會按照目前都是按計劃在進行中所以至少在這個部分我們是按計劃進行中沒有延宕的問題嗎是OK好謝謝那再來想要請教部長這關於"},{"start":257.866,"end":273.737,"text":"感知的量能就是說不管是透過衛星的去感測或者是說用各種方式來去反制中共那我們都有很多的這個情監偵的系統不然雷達衛星等等都有"},{"start":275.228,"end":301.034,"text":"但是我們最近發現到一件事情就是說我們會跟很多的這種衛星的公司會有直接的合作但我們得到的是它的等於是raw 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Unit也好DIU或者是DIO等等就是為了要因應這種科技的快速商業的科技的快速的進展那來去彌補說我們包含美國五角大廈一直在檢討的這種採購過程的長期"},{"start":411.191,"end":437.294,"text":"變成說會要經過太多的process會延宕來去無法應對最新科技的現代化那現在我們跟包含這一些民間協力公開的情資的研析或者是這一些民間的組織有沒有相關的合作或者是說有沒有一些相關的協助讓我們能夠除了由國防部本身由國家之外"},{"start":437.794,"end":442.402,"text":"甚至一邊的民間都可以參與讓我們的防衛跟安全能夠更上一步"},{"start":444.485,"end":468.702,"text":"委員的意思應該有分兩層一個是跟民間人士合作一個是說我們根據這個所謂的公開情誌就Ocean的這樣子的一個情誌來源然後導入我們的這個系統裡面一併去做分析我想這兩個又略有不同所以我想你用這個公開這個情誌來源然後去做分析這是我們現在已經在做的部分"},{"start":469.382,"end":486.672,"text":"那跟民間人士的這個合作可能要看涉及到一個機密跟就是說有涉及到國防機密跟軍事機密要不洩露的一個情況之下我們會跟民間人士來做一些交流這樣子"},{"start":487.752,"end":514.455,"text":"在2016年的時候在2015年2016年的時候那個時候美國有一個叫做MD5就是軍事第五區的一個概念那個概念就是說他們結合包含他們的一些各個頂尖的大學理工的大學也有研究國際關係的大學也有跟美國的這些國防相關的這些實驗室他們把它做一個開放"},{"start":515.115,"end":538.016,"text":"讓這一些學生能夠針對一些由美國國防部他設計的專案讓他們直接進入國防領域國防產業裡面也就是說他們包含把創投融合進來把產官學融合進來讓這一些學生能夠在或者是不見得是學生可能是業界的人士能夠有四到八週的訓練課程這四到八週他們"},{"start":538.777,"end":556.371,"text":"首先當然要做security clearance就是把他們的背景先審查完之後這些經授權的學術人員或者是學生或者是這些相關的科技人員去跟美國各個基地來去他們交流之後由這些各個基地提出他們的問題"},{"start":557.131,"end":575.877,"text":"如果是空軍的話可能是提出怎麼樣可以更快速的做維修或者是如果是陸軍的話可能是他們的穿戴的設備怎麼樣來去做改進由國防部做一個統籌讓他們可以用他們的實驗室用他們的設備用他們的資源提出解決方案也就是由這個地方開始慢慢的才會有DIU DIO的概念"},{"start":576.457,"end":598.775,"text":"那因為他們在先端的這個做法有成功的打入他們的國防體系有一些新創公司成功的進入他們的國防體系所以才會有後來的DIE或DIO那真正的來去把這個採購過程的縮短或者是說把這些科技應用在美國的群訪那是經過十年左右的試驗那我大概是在2016年2015年的時候也有提出相關的"},{"start":600.856,"end":626.471,"text":"這個文章來去做這個簡報那發覺到現在由於科技的速度更快那我們可親近性的這種能力也更快以前這種衛星的你說間諜衛星也好他的精度是必須由政府的所掌控的這些間諜衛星才能夠看到我們一些軍事設置現在是商業的衛星其實都可以做到相當的程度那包含各種不同的衛星你說遙測的或者是說他可能是用其他的這個"},{"start":627.552,"end":656.053,"text":"SAR還是用各種其他的雷達技術等等我們必須要盡快的把這個gap民間跟軍方上面能夠做一個統合因為我們面對的是中國這一個資本是非常重的一個國家他們把大量的資本投入他們的國防技術不計成本不計開銷那就算我們國家就算投入一兆也好那比起中國的這一個他們國家的投入的資金還是有點差別我們唯一能夠做的就是把"},{"start":657.374,"end":680.148,"text":"這種蓬勃發展的民間的產業民間的企業我們的製造也好我們的科技也好或者是我們的這一個對國防相關是有興趣的產官協科技人士也好創投人士也好新創也好結合在一起的話那我們在量跟值就是有機會跟中共來去做一個對抗那我還是希望說"},{"start":681.429,"end":709.024,"text":"盡量想辦法把它擴大化讓更多的參與方進來這樣我們的scale才夠大我們的量夠大能力才能夠提升剛剛委員一開始問的是情資的分享的這個概念另外下來如果委員問的是一個共同研發的概念我可以跟委員講就是說我們包括跟學校包括跟產業我們都已經有在進行只是說這個地方就有它一定的機敏性那這些人員都要做查核"},{"start":709.304,"end":731.557,"text":"也要做某種程度的管制那這些都有在進行創投的話或者是這些Venture的這些資源可以進來嗎創投應該他是要去做那個投資的部分那這個投資在我們的這個不管是國內的或國外的軍工產業就這個部分創投當然也是一個"},{"start":732.504,"end":738.756,"text":"要屬於要進行的方向不過這個部分比較主要屬於國花會他們那個部分在主導"},{"start":740.751,"end":761.286,"text":"還是可以想一下因為很多新興的團隊那以前就像我們剛才提到的其實五角大廈也好或者是他們作為一個平台去對接的對象就是讓這些小小的新創團隊慢慢的可以成為來去承接他們的國防產業的那如果你講的是對新創的這個投資嘛就剛剛講的投資那這個就屬於"},{"start":764.268,"end":782.177,"text":"這個要去找到一個適合的標的他需要有資金的需求一般來講上市公司比較沒有那不是上市公司 新創公司可能會有那這個會由國安會來進行評估那國安會有相關的這種對於安全國防的有相關的在進行中好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1902796c6753798a07119a7747a4c5c6c45c75d439e1a44ec07496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:41:38 - 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請內政部 劉部長跟園民會 曾處委委員好"},{"start":35.32,"end":55.653,"text":"部長跟主委我想請問一下我們這一次這個風災這一次我們有沒有規劃中繼宅你是說馬太安溪的部分有預估是150戶那他們整個村大概有幾戶"},{"start":57.816,"end":72.103,"text":"整個村有幾戶我的意思是要直接說我們現在是整個村然後選一個地方蓋一個中繼宅還是說把原來住在這邊把它分散到好幾個中繼宅"},{"start":73.323,"end":77.364,"text":"沒有 我想跟委員報告一下就是我們針對原來撤離的1800多戶然後把重災區的部分先一戶一戶去拜訪那出來目前我們就是以11跟41戶的部分在台塘的地區先幫他們設中繼宅"},{"start":91.989,"end":108.99,"text":"那因為其他的這個住戶的部分我們會先評估他回去居住有沒有安全上的問題也就是有沒有受到地震的影響這些那所以大部分的住戶尤其是在比較街區的地方比較安全就是回去自己的家裡住因為大部分光復的這個災民都希望不要離開光復鄉"},{"start":111.176,"end":138.301,"text":"對 我會特別問就是說像之前的小林村他們就有很多的聲音就是說把他們整個村拆成三個我們有一個居住權跟生命權跟財產權其實是要用不同的角度去檢視有一個房子住他沒有跟他的文化什麼也都沒有了這個我覺得以前的"},{"start":140.142,"end":157.662,"text":"歷史的這個借鏡我們可能要看所以我才會特別問這個問題我們這個中繼宅是就是暫住以後如果說這個整個復原完之後他們還是可以回去原來的地方我們現在的規劃是不是這樣"},{"start":159.364,"end":183.87,"text":"是 我們為什麼叫中繼宅的主要原因就是說第一個大部分的災民都是希望是離災不離鄉所以我們是選擇也是在光復的台塘的部分在第一批的中繼宅把它設置出來讓他們可以進駐也就是說房舍如果不安全的話一定要離開原來的房舍那房舍如果安全的話盡量回來自己的房舍那這一點大家的共識性都很強"},{"start":184.85,"end":212.492,"text":"那只不過我們現在的速度非常快的狀況之下我們也趕快中繼屋如果蓋好的話有些比較弱勢的族群可不可以先進去進駐那還有就是說有些原住民部落的朋友他們很希望說原住民他是一個團體還經過他們的原住民的代表互相溝通那互相溝通未來的中繼宅要設置成什麼樣子的部分的話我們還是有時間可能他們有共識之後會再繼續往下來推動"},{"start":214.717,"end":236.58,"text":"這個部份 主委 你有沒有參與到 你們的看法是如何目前有關中紀務的部門跟委員報告我們都有跟部落 一戶一戶來做一個面談目前就是說 也有意見都還沒有完全一致 還沒有共識因為有的人他也希望說 租屋補住 他就願意去住了"},{"start":237.56,"end":258.787,"text":"那麼也有的就是說希望能夠有一個中基屋而且這個中基屋希望族人能夠一起住在一起那我們都尊重現在我們還在跟部落在這個跟他們在座談還在跟他們在做說明那我相信很快有一個共識之後我想因為整個的戶數我們估了也不會超過150戶了"},{"start":260.387,"end":270.139,"text":"全部啦我相信這個中繼屋的這個設計應該都容納得下所以不到十分之一的人會需要這個中繼屋嗎對"},{"start":273.015,"end":290.205,"text":"因為有的他的房子並沒有受損他還是可以回去住真的嚴重的大概就是我講的是150戶以內不會超過150戶目前我們預判是這樣子因為在跟部落做座談的時候我們都有掌握到"},{"start":291.726,"end":310.763,"text":"當然你說現在每個人的想法都會不一樣我要特別的今天請問你們兩位就是說原住民他們有他們比較特殊的文化傳統我們的中繼屋如果他可能也住也不是住"},{"start":313.446,"end":336.723,"text":"幾個月可能也會住一段時間那在這邊的話這個的設計這個什麼其實你園民會也應該要有多一些意見然後符合我們原住民族我們這些大家的需求我覺得這個才是重點不是給他一個房子住啦他們的生存權我覺得也要受到重視可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d16d450a0a92260c9c63294d83d43b212b45c75d439e1a44ece319f0192663703a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:36:16 - 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麻煩請部長 謝謝請顧部長各位好部長 現在那個國防部預計要動用第二預備金嘛六千四百四十七萬要去發放加護的全民安全指引嘛我想問一下 因為有關於財政紀律先不講說這個發有沒有效益啦"},{"start":26.653,"end":42.224,"text":"因為第二預備金講的是比如說因應一些緊急狀況那我不知道為什麼國防部認為這那麼緊急為什麼不能夠直接編預算放在正常的公務預算然後讓立法院來審呢這個事情有那麼急嗎要用到第二預備金嗎"},{"start":43.793,"end":61.687,"text":"跟委員報告 第一點就是說我們資本印製的費用 絕標的金額是4279萬這第一點 第二點就是說依照預算法的70條第一款的規定就是說各機關原列的計畫費用因為適時的需要奉準這個修訂然後這原列這是原則嘛"},{"start":62.327,"end":76.864,"text":"那個 部長不要一直念那個原則我們原則上是這樣但大家都知道為什麼會有第二預備金預備金是要預料一些可能沒辦法預就是一些沒有辦法預料的狀況所以要一個預備金在那邊那如果你要編這個全民之音手冊實際上"},{"start":78.245,"end":106.486,"text":"你就可以預料啊比如說你明年要發放那你就可以把預算變成明年拿來審嘛這個有急到那麼地步嗎原來是印五千本那後來因為這個政策主導之後我們現在要普發之後你普發可以明年再普發嘛你不急著一定要現在立刻普發有差兩個月 台灣現在立刻要打仗了嘛我想就這一個不是 這個說不過去啦我覺得這個很擺明的就是要規避審查嘛"},{"start":107.981,"end":125.419,"text":"我想沒有這樣子的一個規定那你為什麼不編在正常預算裡面你有差這兩三個月嗎就剛剛講的因為原來你講說可以按照程序來說只要奉行政院核可都可以但是大家講的是說第二預備應使用的用途跟性質嘛你這個東西沒有到這麼急嘛"},{"start":126.209,"end":152.998,"text":"第二一倍金的用途裡面也包括了原列計畫費用不足的問題啊但是這都沒有那麼急嘛我覺得他的用途當然有一個優先順序在這邊就是說因應比較緊急的狀況那你這個東西實際上我覺得你晚兩個月三個月半年發大家都不會覺得有什麼奇怪的地方啊所以我覺得如果是磁力一開啊那都可以用這種方式跪避監督了啦第二個喔"},{"start":154.008,"end":174.703,"text":"一般國防部會有一些什麼國防白皮書每兩年會發一次像國防白皮書的編輯是非常嚴謹的都會找學界各方的觀點然後大家一起來討論然後最後推出我想問一下全民安全指引有成立編輯委員會嗎"},{"start":178.251,"end":196.883,"text":"我想全民安全指引整個的這個籌編的一個過程因為是有跨部會的所以是由國安會來進行這一個所有的全民安全指引的手冊的一個編修那有所以有編輯委員會他編輯的方式是什麼"},{"start":197.868,"end":217.264,"text":"各單位把它的意見傳給國安會國安會就把它編成這本手冊是不是我們權動署會擔任秘書單位對 那權動署應該會知道它的編輯過程啊有詢問外面的專家學者嗎所以這個版本就是現在賴政府對於所有全民最想要傳遞的訊息是不是就濃縮在這個手冊裡面"},{"start":219.326,"end":243.837,"text":"是吧我想這個相關的這些手冊跟過去的全民國防手冊有很大的不同他因為是比較是一個全民的安全指引所以他有參考這個相關的歐洲國家那也有請教這個專家學者的意見也有專家學者然後所以才編出來的那部長想必你已經看過這個手冊吧是你有看過嗎你覺得這個手冊編的好不好"},{"start":245.189,"end":261.432,"text":"我想在推出的時候各方的反應都還不錯有不錯嗎怎麼跟昨天那個國安會開記者會我在網路上看到的差很大很多人都覺得浪費錢很多人都說拿來蓋泡麵你覺得很不錯你覺得會達到效果"},{"start":262.11,"end":287.571,"text":"部長覺得會達到效果我覺得在強化全民安全意識上我認為提高全民防災避難的意識這個是有必要的當然要提高防災意識但是是不是採取這個方式嘛現在大家講的是方法嘛有沒有必要花六千多萬因為你除了印製之外你還要找地方人力去發送嘛有沒有必要做這個事嘛而且再第二個就是為什麼一定要印紙本我看國防部的說法是說為了要服務長者是不是"},{"start":289.933,"end":306.951,"text":"我想你如果參考其他包括捷克、瑞典、芬蘭、亞森尼亞他們都有普發資本是啦 別的國家是這樣那所以你的意思是因為別人要我也要做純粹是這樣嗎是純粹是這樣嗎在數位之外他們也不是一個在數位部分不划算的國家"},{"start":307.912,"end":333.934,"text":"那為什麼都要來普發最主要當然就是說要讓這個家戶到位之後他們對於這個任何危急狀況來臨的時候不管是天災或者其他的狀況不是 部長你的邏輯就是這樣你的邏輯是只要有普發就可以達到效果好像每一個人家裡面信箱多了這本手冊效果就提升了我覺得這個是大家很打折扣的地方很多人也許拿到丟掉"},{"start":335.275,"end":354.478,"text":"拿到之後拿去做別的用途拿到不打開你如果內容不夠實用不夠吸引人你一樣不會達到效果啊所以國防部怎麼會認為說我只要有做就一定達到效果我不知道你的科學根據是什麼啦那再來就是我看到權動署有回應就是說為什麼不是用數位的因為有數位落差有些長者他不會看數位是這樣嗎"},{"start":355.419,"end":375.472,"text":"那如果即便是這樣你也不見得要普發因為各縣市政府都有針對長者有列冊啊比如說發放老人年金啊或是打疫苗那你也可以採用別的方式直接把紙本發給長者也可以啊那你現在用全部普發方式你塞到一個信箱裡面第一個你怎麼知道那個信箱一定有住人第二個你怎麼知道那個一定有長輩因為我覺得這個做法"},{"start":378.328,"end":389.399,"text":"在還沒有經過很充分的討論的情況之下就直接動用第二預備金就發了而且我都還沒有講內容啊有的內容會讓我們感覺哇 這個緊急到是不是已經馬上要打仗了"},{"start":389.929,"end":409.957,"text":"譬如說有一個內容是叫大家分辨分辨說因為距離的關係所以你看到軍隊不見得知道那是敵軍還是我軍所以只要看到軍隊就趕快先避難裡面有一頁是這樣講如果在你們講的這麼緊急的情況之下台灣現在是不久後馬上要進入巷戰"},{"start":411.229,"end":435.395,"text":"我想台湾是一个很多天灾事故的地方所以不但只是您讲的这些状况也有应付到天然的重大灾害的状况都需要做这样的平时的准备然后在能够危急来临的时候才能够做好根据这个准备来让自己变得更安全"},{"start":437.176,"end":459.774,"text":"這裡面有很多可以檢討的地方發放的方式 內容的充實度還有預算的資用我覺得國防部這樣的做法完全是逃避捐都這真的是非常的專制就是你覺得OK但是其實花的都是人民納稅錢六千多萬也都是人民納稅錢那這一筆是有算在我們的國防預算裡面嗎沒有 這個是行政院的第二一倍捐"},{"start":460.767,"end":488.64,"text":"我知道那問題是你用途就是國防預算的用途嘛所以這也沒有算在國防預算裡面因為是動用到第二預備金是對啊我們不是現在都政府都很強調就是說國防預算變多少代表說國防預算變得多就是我們重視國防嘛所以其實也是有很多不是在國防預算裡面我想國防預算那是一種你看要怎麼定義它的問題但是我只能夠說這個來源是行政院的第二預備金"},{"start":489.645,"end":503.374,"text":"這我當然知道所以我就覺得不合理我覺得國防部這樣做法大家都不太認同你們部長你應該去參考一下網路上大家的輿情反應不是說你們覺得有做就是好謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d10a27105e6dde1ac856e0913f8e9ddf6f45c75d439e1a44ecc47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:37:44 - 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谢谢主席我请一下我们的龚部长请龚部长"},{"start":24.02,"end":44.14,"text":"好部長好今天我們經濟委員會安排的是針對中油的這個三接的二期工程有沒有弊案來做這個專案報告不過我想我今天可能還要請教一下就是我覺得這個事件我想國內外都非常的震驚就是我們的台積電"},{"start":45.481,"end":73.452,"text":"再次的發生這個包含技術機密跟營業機密可能被竊的事情剛才我在司法法治委員會詢問法務部部長那因為根據媒體報導我不曉得這個部長了解的情況是怎樣就是說台積電還就是正在了解還沒有就是要告發但是法務部高檢署高檢署已經"},{"start":74.452,"end":96.359,"text":"主動要調查這個案子 已經主動分案因為按照什麼違反一頁秘密法還有國安法去主動偵辦那我非常肯定 我非常肯定因為我們的護國神山而且這是二奈米以下的這些技術有可能被竊 滋事體大好 那我另外請教一下部長因為這位羅維仁副總"},{"start":101.061,"end":116.308,"text":"那他後來在9月份也容認我們的公研院的院士嘛對不對 公研院院士那當然這個案子還在調查之中那這個院士好像也是台積電去推薦的 對不對"},{"start":118.129,"end":142.297,"text":"台積電推薦好那我想請問如果現在這個羅為仁院士他可能涉及這個偷竊這個台積電的相關的機密那請問一下這個時候我們要不要考慮暫停或者撤銷他的公研院士身份會不會這個"},{"start":145.851,"end":165.156,"text":"我們再來跟供應院討論一下導致委員提到我們就來考慮因為現在他的案件現在算是初步在調查當中也許到某一個一段程度你現在所了解的這麼大的案子你所了解現在台積電的進度是怎麼樣他們還沒有進行告發嗎"},{"start":167.077,"end":194.289,"text":"因為現在主要是 您剛才提到嘛 高檢署它現在因為它是按照這個國安法來辦因為國安法是可以公訴嘛 主動來調查嘛那就經濟部來講完全會配合嘛所以還在這個階段好 那至於公研院院士 你們也會跟公研院來討論對 如果案件比較明朗的情況之下更為明朗的時候 必須要做處理"},{"start":195.049,"end":219.028,"text":"是不是那另外就是台積電這個事件他不是第一次不是第一次因為之前日商的東京威力科創也涉及也涉及有這個竊取台積電的機密那這個是台積電主動去告發提出去告發高檢署高檢署那麼他制裁分署也在辦"},{"start":220.369,"end":231.036,"text":"那我想請問一下台積電的機密一而再的被竊取我想這個當然是有關於是公司的內部問題"},{"start":232.93,"end":254.896,"text":"但是這個部分我們的政府作為主管機關有沒有一些可以著力點譬如說現在也是傳出來說因為他退休之後立刻去到美國英特爾任職那這裡面台積電就沒有給他簽什麼競業條款那這裡有沒有公司治理的漏洞有沒有"},{"start":255.846,"end":272.366,"text":"報告委員是不是有簽這個競業條款齁這個我們還要查證當中那一個說法是他是有簽的可能那有簽他又 他可以再立刻轉去另外一家半導體公司任職理論上是不可以的應該不可以對 理論上是不可以"},{"start":272.606,"end":298.564,"text":"所以我們也會鼓勵台積電如果他有簽競業條款而他可以就是去英特爾任職然後還有涉及竊取機密我們是不是應該鼓勵台積電一定要告啊這個怎麼能不告呢因為高檢署已經主動調查了我想台積電現在應該是配合這個高檢署的調查那我們經濟部也會配合"},{"start":299.224,"end":317.489,"text":"我覺得這件事情真的是姿勢體大真的姿勢體大因為這是在短短的時間內這短短 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住了一輩子的家用這個的事實去質問政府你到底什麼時候才要做"},{"start":153.382,"end":172.322,"text":"所以上個月上個月22號我在這裡同一個地方也問過水利署長還有部長您兩個點第一個頭城外澳街道接天宮那個淹水達一公尺還有第二個蘇澳溪的分洪設施我那時候質詢這兩個就沒想到不到一個月慘劇就發生那我想"},{"start":173.339,"end":197.235,"text":"我講喔 你看喔這次蘇澳後來發現有一個人淹死嘛那其實這個分洪道的工程是15年前梅基颱風之後就說要做的那當時是38條人命那96個人受傷那這個當時的產距換來的這個工程那這麼多死傷還不夠嗎 還要再拖嗎這是我今天不滿的一個意見啦那我昨天也有提到說"},{"start":198.035,"end":212.229,"text":"那为什么不用二辈经开始先做先期先能提早动工为什么不能这样子呢你们有没有想过因为二辈你们可以申请土地征收这些我们都在做主要还是要先做土地征收"},{"start":213.891,"end":237.614,"text":"對 還有漁民的相關漁業簽署 我跟你講啦依據預算法70條規定很清楚因正式臨時需要的話 得動之第二預備金然後今天 院長前兩天講的是說他要綁在四年一千億的預算裡面那我今天我去查了一下 其實我看了一下 其實國家的二備金還有六十億左右啦並不是說沒有錢 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因為你今天"},{"start":385.934,"end":404.602,"text":"我覺得陳金德政委叫了幾個政治人物在當地講了一堆就你覺得人民理他嗎人民只說那為什麼我家還在煙他們只在意這個點為什麼十幾年前就提出來的工程到今天還看不到樣子人民只在乎這個點你跟人民講再多"},{"start":405.242,"end":424.96,"text":"沒有人理你 就像你剛剛回覆其他人的答詢一樣你說我們這個台積電出去 這個是什麼樣 這個技術怎麼樣沒有人會甩你 我只知道護國神山被搬走好 那第二個齁我還是希望齁 工程能夠趕快做因為我跟你講 趕快做 不要拖因為這個非常的重要"},{"start":426.161,"end":451.101,"text":"政府現在還有錢可以用啦不管是救災 不管是工程其實我們還有二倍金可以用那依據這個預算法的規定這個時候用其實是沒有問題因為我們提出來之後又有一堆無腦的網軍就跑來罵說二倍金可以濫用嗎不對喔 依據預算法二倍金在遇到國家正式的緊急狀況就可以用我們國家不能這樣對美採購武器 對美投資"},{"start":452.302,"end":471.982,"text":"幾千億上兆 照單全收但對於我們的國民對於我們的年金斤斤計較不能這樣子嘛我們政府不能這樣對待我們的人民啊你拿到的錢都是人民繳稅好 那拜託土地徵收 用地土地徵收還有漁民的補償現在已經在進行"},{"start":473.704,"end":495.624,"text":"那如果有需要冬日二倍金的部分請問一下你們會不會在本週就行文給行政院沒有 還不需要好 你認為不需要那所有這些相關的救災這個都不用嘛你的意思就是這樣相關的工程 相關救災目前都沒有緊急狀況都不需要用到也沒有資金的缺口你的意思是這樣吧好 謝謝部長這樣我了解了好 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整個照顧要提高成績所以以兒童為中心的政策成績的跟您來討論一下那我們也了解在這個家暴的處理過程當中"},{"start":45.219,"end":73.031,"text":"風險評估的系統是非常非常重要的因為透過好的系統我們才有辦法讓這個家暴未來的對我們兒少的影響會最少那我們也很期待衛福部作為主管機關一定要跨到做到跨部會的即時資訊的串接那我們也知道目前根據家庭暴力防治法的第五條裡面他其實已經有明文規定在第一項第七款當中規定說中央主管機關"},{"start":74.291,"end":98.525,"text":"應該要統籌建立管理家庭暴力電子資料庫供法官檢察官警察醫師護理人員心理師還有社會工作人員等等其他政務機關使用並要對被害人身份予以保密在今天的部長的書面報告裡面好像說無需再重複規範因為看起來法條裡面都已經說明了很完整的"},{"start":99.025,"end":120.504,"text":"可是也有人擔心說那這些網絡會議的處理是不是真的能夠像我們所法條規定這麼嚴整那其實我們也擔心為什麼我們要持續強調這個重要性那可不可以麻煩這個法務部張司長還有司法部中廳長跟內政部警政署的李副署長"},{"start":121.673,"end":142.001,"text":"我們希望能夠確認這些資料的串接狀況是非常非常符合我們所有在處理過程當中很完整的部分那目前這個家暴案件裡面你們有拿到全部的風險評估的資料嗎如何串接它的即時性如何可不可以就現況讓我們也稍微了解一下"},{"start":143.178,"end":156.877,"text":"跟委員簡單說明這個家庭暴力電子資料庫這個平台我們是建立的那主要是針對有通報的或者是申請保護令的這些相關的資訊我們是把它放在這上面"},{"start":158.698,"end":178.303,"text":"那不曉得這個還有沒有什麼可以再精進的地方是 可不可以請三位部會的出席的長官稍微讓我們也知道一下目前串接的過程裡面有沒有碰到哪一些比較困難那部長剛才也說在增進的部分還可以怎麼精進可不可以讓大家都了解"},{"start":179.163,"end":207.594,"text":"跟委員報告我是司法院部分我少教廳廳長那麼這一部分我們持續由我們幾個網絡部門在進行這個網絡借接的一個這個這樣的一個工作行程那預計在明年4月把這些網絡借接把它借接起來那將來我們這些辦案的人員透過這種帳密就可以去查到這些資料共享這樣"},{"start":208.354,"end":235.766,"text":"今年四月會完成完成開始做一個try測試這是第一部分因為非常重要的是我們司法院在法律的修正後我們有一個非常重要的規定是申請延長保護令我們必須在立即通報網絡去保護被害人的安全那這種通報如果沒有這種網絡立即的借接速度太慢"},{"start":236.546,"end":257.455,"text":"因為這樣才整合這個剛剛委員所說的很重要的網絡的一個危險的一個資訊一起把它整合起來是的確就是我們最擔心的所以如果能夠目前當然一直在解決有相關的困難的地方一直在開會解決這樣那警政署那邊有要補充嗎"},{"start":259.447,"end":275.102,"text":"官委員報告 目前我們衛福部所建立的這個相關的系統是有開放給警察各個分局的單位 包括偵察隊或者加防官 他們是有站名 然後可以登錄查詢目前的狀況是這樣"},{"start":276.263,"end":293.238,"text":"好那最後還有其他要再補充的謝謝跟委員報告法務部那也感謝衛福部有提供我們相關的資訊讓我們在這個偵辦案件的時候可以從我們單一窗口那利用帳號密碼就可以去查詢一些保護令的通報紀錄以及保護令的裁定所以可以無縫銜接"},{"start":294.359,"end":323.622,"text":"目前可以查詢到的相關資訊就是保護令的通報紀錄跟保護令的裁定在法務部這邊好謝謝那三位長官請回是其實我們了解在這次這個北市中大案件裡面的移送過程裡面並沒歷次的這個通信通報紀錄裡面檢視警政服務系統僅能查詢相關的暴力案件的通報紀錄是真的有他的一些不足的地方"},{"start":324.182,"end":345.176,"text":"那請問這個部長目前研商會議以後資料串接的進度如何如何跟相關的這個系統做串接部長還可以再進一步說明就是主要是那個即時性當初在這個會議當中大家在反映的是即時性這後面都會有啦但是如何能夠更快的"},{"start":346.116,"end":367.747,"text":"不是用後面的批次上傳那種交換的方式而是更即時性所以我們會來追蹤一下看看這個即時性的部分如何再提高就是法院這邊有判決如何更即時性的讓第一線的警察機關可以得知這樣"},{"start":368.459,"end":395.864,"text":"好 謝謝大家繼續努力那再過來是以兒童為中心的政策層級這個其實大家都已經期待非常久了上一次部長也說明了一些狀況那最近賴總統更是宣布要設立兒童及家庭署那目前我們看到的這個架構是目前社家署的這個架構兒童福利值是其中的一組所以相對來講權限各方面是真的受到很大的影響"},{"start":396.644,"end":417.885,"text":"那未來再到二零二八年我們會有第二期的計畫四年會投入到一百三十五點六億這樣的經費來希望能夠提高對兒童的照顧那我們也看了日本日本他們其實有非常豐沛的這方面的組織架構跟人力的配置光一個兒童廳他們就有五百一十名的所有官員"},{"start":418.766,"end":436.5,"text":"那目前如果希望能夠提升這個照顧的需求的話那我們在計畫上是怎麼去落實這樣的政策那有沒有完成跟日本相關的兒童家庭廳制度的對接跟差距的評估這部分也會請部長在這邊再強調跟說明謝謝委員給我這個機會說明"},{"start":441.123,"end":469.39,"text":"這個我們現在所規劃的這個兒少及家庭支持署是一個新設的單位不是這個社家署改個名字而已但是會把現行在社家署裡面那個兒童福利跟這個家庭支持這兩個組會一起移到這個新的這個新設的這個兒家署裡面來同時也會把這個兒童的保護業務福利還有健康政策"},{"start":470.63,"end":485.964,"text":"這個也會把它融入到這個署裡面來所以我們會盡量的去爭取這個緣額讓他可以這個全責相扶啦是所以目前的華研依據組織架構人力跟預算的規劃都已經成熟了"},{"start":487.269,"end":508.75,"text":"已經在內部一直在盤點這些哪些業務要移入然後他的這個幾個組然後這個編制怎麼樣我們會完成之後送到先修改這個組織法修訂組織法送到行政院來核定之後再報立法院來審議"},{"start":509.656,"end":520.107,"text":"好我們希望這樣能夠有跨部會的權限不然的話討論起來會相對是比較弱勢一點好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請劉許廷"}]}},{"id":"165636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d127e51b0f9ce4bde67119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498a563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:05:55 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沒關係 我們先開始這個 我們還是回到今天"},{"start":26.99,"end":52.618,"text":"質詢的主題啦就是有關於花蓮馬太安溪的一些後續的一些處遇跟機制上的一些調整今天跟幾位首長來做就教現在馬太安溪到底安不安全其實也很難講對不對因為這個東部的地質本來就比較敏感加上颱風侵襲的狀況本來就比較頻繁加上這個堰塞湖潰堤之後它本來地質就處於一個高度不穩定的狀態比如說前一段時間這個便道又被淹沒嘛溪水暴漲"},{"start":54.498,"end":77.606,"text":"幾乎是以命相搏是很危險的一個狀況那我想請問一下因為一次找你們三家來就是核心的問題就是我們待會要討論一下未來針對驗射壺到底要事權要不要統一那我們就幾個問題第一個我們以現在花蓮馬太安溪附近的狀況還有沒有形成新的驗射壺的可能我們現在能不能講說花蓮的光復箱已經脫離了危險的狀態這哪一位可以回答"},{"start":81.138,"end":101.598,"text":"跟委員說明現在目前那個馬丹安溪的驗生物有兩個一個大一個小就是一個大的原來的原本驗生物現在32.5萬噸然後前上個禮拜行程的那個又經過一流潰堤以後剩下5萬噸左右但是因為兩側還有非常多的沙土所以隨時可能好大雨"},{"start":102.739,"end":119.704,"text":"土石在崩的時候隨時還有可能再成為一個新的驗測壺OK 這個農業部長先第一個站出來處理是因為你是土石流的主管機關所以驗測壺你是主管機關是因為這樣嗎不是 我們是馬太安上游的負責我們負責監測跟警示負責監測跟警示 好 謝謝所以現在還不能講說脫離危險狀態對吧"},{"start":121.825,"end":139.991,"text":"對 因為現在目前那個邊坡的土石大概有一萬立方公尺所以隨時有可能不管是地震他再崩下來就會形成新的岩石湖對 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謝謝"},{"start":262.862,"end":278.673,"text":"這今天特別要提一下把三個人一起找過來就是因為這樣嘛就我們的地震災害由內政部管理對不對我們的水災由經濟部管理剛剛農業部回答比較多因為土石流這個性質上可能比較接近嘛對不對那現在晏色湖你們經過了這一次的事件之後到底有沒有統整一下到底是由誰來管理"},{"start":280.57,"end":301.83,"text":"三位都可以回答沒有關係的燕社伍本身現在目前還是農業部來負責主責好我希望這個事情相對明確啦好不好就是以後既然它已經是一個狀況而且它本來就是很多部位砸在一起嘛然後我們本期是特別在這個預算審查之前提出一些提醒啦就是說未來可能發生這些狀況的時候其實它應該是早一點部署嘛好不好"},{"start":302.25,"end":322.038,"text":"這是本席的一個提醒那再問一個問題就是說之前討論馬太安這個事情的時候曾經有講說工程手段不可行可是後來變道其實也都開出來了嘛對不對那未來如果再發生工程手段不可行等等的一些很難的問題的時候那應對方案啊比如說測村啊等等是哪一個單位負責"},{"start":324.142,"end":340.638,"text":"還是農業部負責嗎我先回答您剛才講的就是工程手段的部分那現在因為它還是在雨季下雨天的時候整個的便道現在還沒有便道只是去攤勘的便道而不是整個要未來要去降蛙的這個便道"},{"start":341.238,"end":361.972,"text":"那等到我們的過了這個雨季的時候我們才有機會往上去看有沒有機會去降蛙我剛講的問題是因為你工程手段不可行所以你可能要做其他的處理可能要提早撤存預警等等下游的部分就會由水利署這邊來協助水利署所以是經濟部決定要不要撤存等等嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":362.392,"end":382.305,"text":"不是 水利署是針對河道本身的一個整治的河道本身的整治嘛不是 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謝謝"},{"start":17.816,"end":43.305,"text":"我請教一下部長 你是中友的老闆喔這個有關於周刊講的說中友的高層啊說 講的說中友很有錢這個綠營黨你們鑑別怎麼樣 進度怎麼樣外界一直關心這一句話這句話對中友 對經濟部很傷啊中友很有錢 意思就是可以亂花錢到底有沒有這句話"},{"start":44.912,"end":66.927,"text":"沒有 那個是週刊上的對啊 你們要check一下你要盡快 已經幾天了啊到現在我都沒有答案有沒有有沒有我們會做調查你這樣一直拖對不對 你要已經幾天了已經幾天了 出來幾天了沒有啦 這個勝鋒調查還是要有一段時間比較務實啊還可以"},{"start":71.47,"end":87.681,"text":"還要一個月喔就是12月中一直是這樣子調查一個錄音帶的真偽有沒有這個錄音帶這個不知道就是要調查連有沒有錄音帶都不知道還在調查當中中委要不要講一下 董事長"},{"start":88.902,"end":113.2,"text":"這個是週刊的報導說有一個錄音檔那我們會透過一些用行政調查嘛 政風調查想辦法能夠取得這個錄音檔目前沒有週刊好像他有沒有 我們也不知道他也是記者去聽到這個錄音檔寫出來的"},{"start":116.528,"end":139.678,"text":"你的意思是 記者論寫得對嗎我也不知道 所以我說我們要調查好 第二個我們來看部長 川普有再講一遍說台灣搶走了或者偷走了美國的晶片生意讓美國覺得很丟臉這句話我記得他選舉的時候就講了"},{"start":145.594,"end":165.355,"text":"當總統 報講幾次他一直對這個事情耿耿於懷你要不要做一些評論報告委員 我覺得台灣的半導體產業在全世界裡面生態體系是重要不可或缺的角色而且台灣的半導體的效力對全世界的貢獻非常非常大"},{"start":166.294,"end":177.304,"text":"就是說 你要去對川普講啊川普他是對美國人講對全世界講 他是美國總統對不對 這個講對台灣很傷餒對台灣很傷餒 你難道對啊 你們講 人家聽不到啊我們在這裡講 聽不到啊我們過去還笑啊還聽不到啊"},{"start":191.547,"end":198.252,"text":"不然你忽略了 你怎麼講 沒用 繼續講繼續講好像台灣是小偷一樣對 人家還是認為我們是小偷你很大聲的說我們不能接受 你可以接受嗎"},{"start":212.712,"end":228.475,"text":"我還是覺得你可以接受你可以接受川普講的說我們是美國的精配小偷你接受嗎台灣半導體對全世界的貢獻真的很強你接不接受我們回答問題而且台灣發展半導體已經40多年了你不要一直像錄音帶一直講"},{"start":229.136,"end":249.865,"text":"你接不接受這一句話你看見你接受這樣子喔所以你講其他53你接不接受美國的總統川普說台灣是偷走美國晶片的小偷你同意嗎很多的技術都是我們自己發展出來的你要講你要大聲講你大聲點不敢講你說我不同意這對喔你是經濟部長欸你這話都不敢講就代表說有偷喔我們有偷喔"},{"start":259.296,"end":266.521,"text":"怎麼會這樣子呢已經講了一次兩次三次一直講一直講請經濟部的工部長你講你我不接受川普這種講法可以嗎你可以講嗎"},{"start":277.977,"end":295.875,"text":"臺灣的技術還是自己很多發展出來可能 我對你很失望啊你要做經濟部長 一點肩膀都沒有人家 把你整成這樣這個對川普已經講得M次了其實其實你應該 那個後面講 這是我講的講這個話"},{"start":300.511,"end":328.506,"text":"來提高台灣去美國投資的正當性因為你都從我這裡投了所以你要回到這裡投資不只3千5百億最好4千億最好5千5百億請問那個數字出來了嗎3千5到5千5這個對不對這個數字對不對報告委員這個對不對我們半導體去美國投資是因為他有訂單上的需求而且對於公司是好的"},{"start":329.247,"end":334.193,"text":"對國家好啦 你說這個我都聽不懂啦行政司我就問你3500到5500關稅的談判說要台灣投資3500到5500這一句話對不對啦沒有啦 這個還在談判當中啊這個我沒有辦法comment"},{"start":347.462,"end":352.987,"text":"媒體都嚇到這樣 都說已經確定了啊三千五到四千五啊還沒有確定啊 還沒有確定你意思是不只這樣子啦部長 人家跟你講到這樣 跟你站到這樣這樣當著美國人的面前講台灣是偷美國金邊的小偷你都不敢說 我不同意這句話"},{"start":371.522,"end":395.634,"text":"你也是這樣沒肩膀 你要做保證第二個他這個其實他這個相轉五件他再講一遍就是所以下一句話要來美國投資就是這樣簡單說就是這樣啊 金額就是3,500到5,500股市是這樣子部長這個東西不要不要這樣好像好像貴孫子一樣噴到美國好像貴孫子一樣 話都不敢講謝謝"},{"start":401.527,"end":401.769,"text":"謝謝我們賴世寶委員"}]}},{"id":"165643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d12c2be2f60cd266857119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498acf300a208d967c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"13:30:33 - 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許委員質詢謝謝主席 有請我們主計長還有財政部莊部長請陳主計長 財政部莊部長委員好主計長好 部長好"},{"start":27.046,"end":36.611,"text":"我想根據我們主計總署跟財政部的一個資料這個目前我們政府長期債務的餘額將近6兆元短期債務是4191億那整體位長的這個債務餘額有6.4兆那平均我們國人的負擔的債務27.4萬請教部長跟主席長這個數字正確嗎"},{"start":56.882,"end":73.628,"text":"我想不管是中央執政還是地方政府這個財政機率的重要性非常的重要我想兩位應該同意這個論調那尤其當然我們現在國人為了解決很多的這個基礎建設也好這個社會福利教育文化"},{"start":74.188,"end":101.076,"text":"我們當然政府也必須投入很多的資金來做這樣的一個改善但是我們現在看到這樣的一個藍白二修財化法之後造成我們中央跟地方市權也好還有整個財務的結構也好財政機率蕩然無存主委長跟部長剛剛那麼多委員在問你們我們想我們行政院的版本也要出爐了未來你們有沒有信心行政院的版本會被我們多數的縣市來支持"},{"start":103.7,"end":123.457,"text":"我們這一次修法有幾個目標那這個目標事實上是對中央對地方都是好而且中央地方的夥伴關係事實上是更加的提升我們修法目標非常明確第一個我們希望國民的生活品質能夠更均衡不管你是生活在鄉村或生活在都市"},{"start":123.857,"end":139.349,"text":"他必須要能夠有一定的生活品質跟公共服務第二個我們的修法目標就是我們的錢權的分配要更合理也就是說中央跟地方之間的財政資源的分配必須要合理第一個地方要強的財政自主的能力那麼也要顧到中央的財政的韌性跟財政的穩健這個必須要做合理還有城鄉之間的分配要更公平不能讓富者越富"},{"start":149.617,"end":168.378,"text":"好 部長那如果依據我們上個禮拜我們立法院通過的這個版本那卓院長也講了如果我們再舉債五千六百億之後那我們換算一下我們國人增加的負擔又多了兩萬多塊所以我們大概會變成我們的國人每個人負債要高達三十萬左右"},{"start":169.019,"end":194.565,"text":"那面對這樣一個困境那剛剛部長也講了我們過去要均衡台灣那我們也擔心許多的這個重要的重大建設尤其是南台灣的重大建設會受到衝擊影響那未來有沒有考慮把我們像農業縣來好屏東縣也好我們的農業漁業的指標這次有沒有把它放進來一併討論是的我們在邀請各地方政府來開會的時候各地方政府也都有表達在這樣的意見尤其是農"},{"start":195.685,"end":211.337,"text":"農林業為主的都有價我們所以這一次在分配的指標裡面會把農林榆木的產值放進去以及人口數也都會放進去這樣子才能夠均衡到地方的發展但聽起來是雙北跟這個北部幾個非農業縣都反對這個版本那以後怎麼處理"},{"start":214.525,"end":218.146,"text":"這個部分我們必須要詳細說明我們知道就是說原來的分配的方式讓原來營地事業的營業額高的他獲配的更多那其實這就是工商發達的城市他本來的財政能力就比較強那我們應該財政那個財化法最主要就是要能夠均衡地方的發展"},{"start":233.57,"end":254.35,"text":"以及做所謂調劑財政的營需那麼對於財政能力比較弱的部分本來就應該要透過中央統籌分配稅款給予比較多的一個挹注讓它能夠發展出來也就是所謂的要有一個均衡的發展各地區的國民必須要有一個基本的生活品質跟良好的公共服務這就是財化法本身就要有具備的精神"},{"start":254.909,"end":266.962,"text":"我想這個未來的路還很長這個過程也很艱辛我想我們要堅持對的方向才能落實這個軍方台灣的一個理念副長跟主長請回那我們有請經濟部我們的賴次長好 請賴次長"},{"start":272.148,"end":295.422,"text":"委員好市長我想你看到圖片上這個這是過去你在擔任水利署長的時候我們屏東這個東港林邊加東沿岸的這個離岸堤那時候因為有水利署跟中央支持我想我們對於這個沿海的這個風浪的侵襲也受到很好的一個保護但隨著年代久遠已經都落下來了而且有些地方那個缺口太大了"},{"start":296.402,"end":310.792,"text":"這幾次颱風我去看了現場已經沒辦法發揮作用有沒有辦法盡快來加高跟強化這個縮小這個艱鉅這個我們絕對會加快那過去感謝因為中央政府有一些能量"},{"start":311.272,"end":336.196,"text":"有預算來支持我們的特別預算所以我們面臨在極端的氣候之下不管是比如說前一陣子包括恆春的這個東門溪的這個滯洪池也是在這個理念之下完成的那未來還有東港 恆春 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石部長有請有請石部長"},{"start":7.7,"end":36.326,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了這個我想家暴的防治也不應該只是衛福部的責任啦因為其實有法令也有相關的一些執行那當然也有一些預防等等所以其實不管法務部司法院教育部等等應該相互合作處理這個事但我們今天質詢也不是要指責誰因為最近發生一些悲劇我們希望可以從制度面的層面探討解決問題那現在家暴法我們看相關的一些很多提案修法的方向都是在增加罰則每次遇到問題我們就增加罰則當然有一定的嚇阻效果"},{"start":36.946,"end":50.498,"text":"但我想在面對新北市土城這個案子就是先申請了保護令但是在程序中並沒有實施預防性羈押然後到後來回過頭來採取了更極端的作為導致了人命的損失增加罰則對於這樣的案例有用嗎"},{"start":52.672,"end":77.054,"text":"因為這個案子有兩種一種是已經違反了這個保護令然後這個有沒有羈押成立或者是這個給予更強制性的一些這個措施對啊 所以顯然沒辦法預防對不對我只是增加法則沒有用嘛 對不對那第二個問題是我們的家暴法31條之一有規定預防性羈押相關的一些這個"},{"start":79.361,"end":107.09,"text":"配套措施但這樣的案子裡面其實有多次家暴的記錄啊以這個土城的案子來講也因為違反保護令有進到法庭的程序裡面嘛但是怎麼樣來講都是摸不到那個預防性羈押的門檻嘛所以當然在法務部等等在執行的時候法院的體系在執行的時候最後只能無保次回嘛那無保次回之後就發現是破洞了嘛那現在現行的條件我們除了講說要增加罰則增加嚇阻效果之外我們要不要考慮提高一下預防性羈押的應該說降低一下預防性羈押的門檻部長"},{"start":109.236,"end":128.872,"text":"預防性羈押剛剛其實在林委員質詢的時候有提到他那個刑度的關係讓這個要羈押的可能性降低所以這個是可以未來來討論可以討論對不對好謝謝我就要聽這句話因為本期的提案雖然現在還在連署但我們提案的方向其實就是鬆綁相關的門檻現在衛福部針對家暴風險有一個"},{"start":132.955,"end":156.641,"text":"TIPVDA這個要怎麼唸TIDA我剛有稍微聽到這個叫做親密關係危險暴力評估表1234危不危險等等它其實是一個初判那初判裡面其實你也有提說你需不需要政府介入來做協助那本席的建議是這樣就不妨用這一張表當作一個很好的切入基準也就是說在這一張表上你當然可以調整一下內容跟介入的程度"},{"start":157.361,"end":186.42,"text":"如果符合被害人或者是高風險被害人他心裡的恐懼等等程度等等到一定的程度他其實就應該跟可不可以採取預防性羈押進行掛鉤嘛換言之這個分數達到非常非常高的時候我直接可以處理預防性羈押我是不是比起現在我要怎麼反覆再犯而且有明確事實證明反覆再犯我才能做預防性羈押來得強得多部長你覺得咧我們要不要考慮一下修正這張表跟修正相關的法條讓他可以掛鉤就是說這個TIDA的兩表齁他的"},{"start":188.361,"end":207.767,"text":"叫做預測準確性啦他是高危機個案的預測目前這個當然可以提供給法官在裁量的時候的一個參考對現在只是參考嘛對對對但沒有都沒有強制要沒有強制性的那怎麼去精進這個我們可以再回過頭來看一下這個量這個量表"},{"start":209.888,"end":222.002,"text":"並不是這個每一個這個就跟前面這個委員有提到我幫你講啦他可能不能當成唯一標準但他是眾多標準之一對不對我們把"},{"start":224.985,"end":239.843,"text":"問題拉開來看就是說高風險個案進行預防性羈押可不可以讓被害人有更充足的時間跟心理壓力可以進行生活圈的徹底隔離從技術上跟政策方向應該要做到這個事嘛好那我們就要針對這個事嘛本期的版本的意思大概的概念是這樣就是說"},{"start":241.164,"end":262.467,"text":"以現在修法 現在的版本要預防性羈押只能違反保護令然後成立嫌疑重大然後反覆實行的事實認證嘛這是這麼多的三管五卡你才能羈押 所以羈押率非常低然後所以出現各種破洞本期的版本是這樣違反保護令或者成立相關的家暴已經有犯罪事實或者有事實認證反覆"},{"start":263.608,"end":278.701,"text":"這些跟之前都一樣 你是採取聯級任何之一都可以 加上這一張表認定達一定標準 認定成為高風險者這樣子的方向 請問衛福部是否贊同這個方向我們支持加上我們這個評估非常感謝 這我們希望"},{"start":279.622,"end":297.748,"text":"兩表我們還需要再兩表跟著精進都沒有問題我相信衛福部跟相關人等的專業最後花一點點時間因為很多人都大家都希望法律還可以保障人權但是我想部長應該也蠻清楚這年頭就是亂世嘛治亂世要用重點現在這都已經討論到詐騙犯要不要用鞭刑了對不對"},{"start":298.428,"end":325.294,"text":"所以說大家的民意的主流焦慮跟期待是害怕這些事情傷害到本來大家寧靜安正常的生活所以還在過度的保護加害人其實是不合時宜的所以我認為把家暴相關預防性階段的門檻往下降我覺得應該是合於社會大眾的期待也有助於遏止家暴的發生啦好不好那就希望版本進來的時候衛福部會有開放的心態當然可以提意見但我們往這個方向前進可以嗎可以可以好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d150d87f780dbb349d7119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498a63da75164c6fb7565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:38:42 - 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謝謝主席有請衛福部理事長請理事長"},{"start":29.629,"end":49.786,"text":"委員好 律師長好 針對這次花蓮馬太安這個菸色湖在後重建特別預算的部分有兩個主題要跟您來討論一下有關建立大型的這個集體災害之後的心理健康預防與治療機制還有就是加強化沙豐 化加沙災民及志工心理急救跟創傷復原的這個照護的部分"},{"start":51.607,"end":74.642,"text":"那其實就是世界心理健康日是很重要的一個對大部分的人來講是重要性你知道世界心理健康日是哪一天嗎10月10號 感謝委員今年的主題是什麼知道嗎今年的主題很湊巧就是人道緊急事件之下的心理健康就剛好符合我們台灣目前的現況"},{"start":76.603,"end":88.61,"text":"為什麼他要特別定義人道緊急狀況的需求因為我們知道人道緊急狀況基本上分成三大種一個就是自然災害一個是人為緊急情況一個是複雜的緊急狀況這個部分"},{"start":92.132,"end":116.185,"text":"這些包括地震 風災都算是自然傷害那這些傷害其實對當地造成影響是蠻大的除了人命或者是身體健康以外心理健康也是非常重要WHO就非常強調說沒有心理健康就沒有真正而且全面的健康所以他們的一般的估計有20%的人後面都會造成這樣的困難跟困擾所以他們特別的重視希望能夠針對這樣的人道"},{"start":118.866,"end":141.088,"text":"緊急狀況之下心理健康能夠更加強來保護相關的這些人群那我們可以看到除了受災害的人群以外呢在右下角我們看到的就是對人道工作者的相關權利跟權利的保障還有承受的壓力也希望共同來處理這個就是我們這次災區的這個發酵風災以後這些產值超人還有志工們"},{"start":142.209,"end":166.353,"text":"這個就是我們希望能夠持續來灌注的部分那我們也知道這次衛福部也透過好的機制來做災後心理健康預防跟治療的機制這個部分就是包括剛剛所提到的有關於關懷花蓮馬太安這個鷹舍府的災民心理支持服務要全力展開另外相關的救災英雄產生超人的"},{"start":166.773,"end":186.191,"text":"要请他们能够安心的来做处理以外呢也希望能够有好的心理健康的支持方案那这部分等一下看部长有没有一些执行的状况或者是这个资源是不是有足够来做因应的部分那我们稍微了解一下日本日本他们其实天灾跟台湾比起来"},{"start":186.972,"end":214.381,"text":"甚至更多他們就委外做了一個有關於災害精神協助小組這樣的運作的模式那這個運作模式裡面他們要求當有這些自然災害發生的時候需要在48小時裡面就要抵達災區來展開相關的服務工作還包括有精神科的醫師護理師行政人員這樣的專業團隊來協助幫忙那他們經過這30年來的執行發現成效非常良好所以他們很希望把這樣的這些"},{"start":216.141,"end":240.618,"text":"服務的過程流程還有服務的這些需要注意的事情能夠讓其他國家來做參考那我們期待台灣透過這一次的這些需求我們能夠持續的來強化這一部分所以我們今天才會了解說這次其實也編列了3600萬相關的經費不過主要是用在這個建築物的這些修補或者是醫療儀器的災後災損的部分"},{"start":241.218,"end":262.089,"text":"跟這次的心理健康並沒有全然的關係所以才會想要利用這次的這個預算過程裡面的做一個主決議來針對於災後心理健康的議題希望能夠有效的來補助這一塊那這部分可不可以請次長先做一個說明還有針對這個主決議的內容希望能夠來加以支持"},{"start":262.719,"end":283.431,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我那個上個月剛去柏林參加那個全球健康論壇確實現在目前也就是陳如委員剛剛所說的整個災後心理的這一個重建的部分還有精神科的部分這個是WHO現在非常重要的一個重點另外第二個委員剛剛所說的就是我們現在目前我先跟委員報告我們在第一時間當時我們就啟動了整個這一個災難心理的這一個的輔導"},{"start":289.875,"end":313.895,"text":"主要是由我们部立医院跟我们的新建师他们来派员前往现在在我们的组决议里面有提到这一个部分我们现在目前会启动我们现在目前地方的卫生局还有整个就是我们部立医院这边的一个相关的一个心理医师的部分其实我们现在目前所需要照顾的不光灾民其实"},{"start":315.336,"end":337.234,"text":"當時前往這一個協助的志工等等這些甚至包括我們的國軍其實事實上都需要類似像這樣的一個整個這個相關的輔導好 希望我們能夠完備相關的有關你心理健康的支持的部分讓不管是災民也好或者是參與的志工都能夠得到最好的協助是非常感謝鄭序委員對這議題的關心謝謝好 謝謝王次序委員也謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d18740d3a22bd1817b7119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498aeebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"13:12:50 - 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我們請陳主席長跟莊部長請主席長還有莊部長"},{"start":17.731,"end":42.652,"text":"委員好主席長好 莊部長好有關昨天主席總署有召集我們地方政府溝通之後發了一份新聞稿有提到說中央統籌分配款跟一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款不低於114年度的三項合計數那主席長你在跟中央這個地方政府在跟你們開會的時候你們並沒有提供修法的版本也沒有經費的估算表"},{"start":43.112,"end":65.75,"text":"一切都是你們單方面的在解這個講解對外的說明那請問主計長行政院的裁劃法修法版本是要回到113年12月修法前然後提出新版的修法我們可以看一個表格就是這是在114年8月29號國土署公佈的資料114年度的這個通知分配金額是4400"},{"start":69.354,"end":81.916,"text":"61億然後115年的通知分配金額是8488億請問一下若依照行政院的院版重算的話115年度可以分配多少"},{"start":83.001,"end":99.769,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們昨天談的主要是市權的一個結構和原則的一個討論那所以這個統總分配稅的一個部分它是這個財政部負責我現在請教您你手邊上一定有資料115年度可以分配多少那請問一下中部長"},{"start":104.212,"end":126.25,"text":"跟委员报告我们行政院的修法版本明天会提报院会讨论院会讨论确定通过后我们会在会晤的记者会跟各位报告不会比114年度少吗那所以是多少会有4600亿还是4700亿还是如表上所写的8000多亿"},{"start":127.599,"end":142.029,"text":"跟委員報告我們是講說114年的救治就按照原來的財化法它中央統籌分配稅款是4676億但是加上一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款是一兆零131億那麼115年度就是根據"},{"start":145.831,"end":174.02,"text":"去年12月通過的採劃法修正以後的三項合計數是1兆1683億三項合計數是中央統籌分配稅款加一般型補助款加計劃型補助款那我們修法的目標我們的修法目標就已經會把這個三項合計數釋出給地方挹注的規模會比115年度來的高那莊部長我現在只要請教您因為時間的關係就115年度到底可以分配多少"},{"start":174.704,"end":187.856,"text":"一百一十五年度現在就是一千一照一千六百八十三億啊這個就是一千六百八十三億可以分配那我想請教一下喔根據這個主席總署的新聞稿子強調喔這個"},{"start":189.818,"end":218.487,"text":"不低於114年度的這個年度預算數這三項中央統籌分配算法跟一般性補助款跟計劃性補助款看起來像是保障地方實際上就是一個障眼法因為中央財政收入本來就會隨著經濟成長的逐年增加所以統籌分配算法自然也會增大那你們現在保證這個114年度不會比140年度少也沒有保證要公平分配各位知道我們為什麼要修財化法嗎就是因為過去長期存在著嚴重的偏差"},{"start":219.207,"end":238.924,"text":"民進黨執政的縣市拿得多非民進黨執政的縣市拿得少所以我們這次的真正的修法的目的是希望能夠公平分配可是看來行政院的修法根本沒有觸及最核心的公平分配的版本只是讓中央更加集權又集錢我們的公平分配比去年的版本來得公平這樣的版本修法我們怎麼同意委員您知道去年通過的修法版本以後"},{"start":247.071,"end":260.746,"text":"各縣市增加的比例嗎我想剛剛提到的這些你就可以知道我們現在看起來事實上完全看不到中央的誠意也看不到你們修法真的要去解決公平分配的問題所以這樣的版本修法我們都不會同意那當然剛剛我想主席長有提到昨天的這個市權劃分的原則會議啊"},{"start":266.633,"end":287.426,"text":"也很多縣市都跟我們反映你們只用一個不到800字的縮帖然後沒有版本 沒有公式 沒有試算 沒有清單然後完全沒有任何資料他們還要像賊一樣拿手機在偷拍簡報的資料然後地方的普遍反應就是說這樣而且針對已經很多核定的重大建設的補助也被通知要調降"},{"start":288.687,"end":303.033,"text":"那中央還暗示說院版通過之後就會恢復主席長這樣是什麼意思如果修法沒有通過那中央可以先這樣下修補助然後用恢復當作交換條件嗎這難道不是在逼地方要接受院版的才化法嗎"},{"start":305.162,"end":324.563,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們昨天討論的一個市權分配的原則大部分都是跟114年度相同所以一般財政局或者主計方面他們都非常的熟悉那請問一下昨天有沒有市權清單有沒有財務估算"},{"start":327.378,"end":334.897,"text":"如果沒有的話 什麼叫做事權花分誰能夠表達意見 因為什麼都沒有嘛而且你下放的事權有哪些"},{"start":337.062,"end":363.303,"text":"主席長你昨天有告訴他們要下放的市權有哪些嗎還有呢每一項的市權需要多少的裁員地方是不是能夠負擔額外的人事成本那你只想說什麼單軌二軌三軌你這些具體的目標都沒有講你要地方怎麼表達意見而且你們的新聞稿還特別提到說地方都普遍都同意了只有少數幾個縣市事實上據我了解在座的根本沒有同意是因為就沒有版本要怎麼同意"},{"start":363.863,"end":389.429,"text":"不是 因为这个部分最后的一个数据是明天会宣布但是昨天讨论的主要是原则的部分昨天请他们来开这个市权的这个划分的会议不就是真的是争笑吗不是 因为我们讨论的一个市权主要是比照114年度所以114年度项目大家都非常的熟悉那我刚讲的就是要下放的市权有哪些他们熟悉吗市权需要多少裁员他们熟悉吗"},{"start":390.763,"end":397.004,"text":"以114年的基礎來看的話既然都沒有那請他們來開會一點意義都沒有重點是你們事後還發新聞稿說大部分的縣市都同意這樣我非常不能夠接受一定要跟地方充分的溝通才能夠好好的來去實行我們這一次的這個市權的一個相關的工作也說一下將來的分配辦法還有補助辦法通通會再召開相關的縣市來做"},{"start":415.208,"end":424.158,"text":"其實經過已經將近一年了你們現在才召開市權的會議而且是用這樣一個粗糙的方式我非常不能接受請這個主席長要好好的思考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d18b8f5f6eea11bd477e24dce8f91e16ee662daff7a264498a9af2e74e98a9ffb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:53:32 - 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預警中心他們經過這個機制他們有個斬金專案他也查獲了一百多 將近兩百億的這些的交易被害的金額高達一百六十幾億另外那個被害人高達好幾千人那這個陸續發生的這些的成效出來了"},{"start":94.622,"end":108.973,"text":"好 部長那我來講一下就是過去這一兩個禮拜我有分別去質詢警政署 警管會跟數位部那我們一起來想一個比較經濟的方案但是這些方案必須要合法要有法源那甚至是要"},{"start":110.469,"end":136.408,"text":"邏輯性也要有那才不會說我們我自己來去提案倡處立法但其實沒有符合任何的效益所以我質詢警政署跟軍管會的時候他們是有提到說如果說修法授權讓警方能夠提供有詐欺相關前科或者是通緝資料給予金融機構的話他們認為是可以大幅提升防詐的效率或者是協助金融單位在事前在事前識別高風險對象"},{"start":137.609,"end":164.05,"text":"那金管會是說如果有這個明確的法源授權的話他們願意導入他們的金融機構風險的系統去進行勾結那跟內政部跟警政署來進行資料交換跟機制那數位部他們是說因為有TRO的存在所以這些傳輸的話是可以在資安的前提之下把這些訊息來去傳遞那所以我們我自己的想法是沒有要求要全面公開個資因為這對主帳沒有幫助"},{"start":165.871,"end":192.057,"text":"我們是針對高風險就是我們剛剛提到的他有前科或者是他現在還在被通緝或者是他有起訴書的這些狀況之下先給金融機關或者是先給監管的機關這一些的資訊不是要用來職工內部做事前的做這個來去做勾結而已他並沒有說不讓他使用這些金融機構的服務"},{"start":193.317,"end":214.48,"text":"那如果在這樣子的前提之下不知道部長有沒有可能把這一些從帳戶擴大到已經判決確定的詐欺前科犯如果只是限縮在以判決確定的詐欺前科犯那這樣子的原則上是可不可以做可不可以有這樣子的修法你的這個法律的見解是怎麼樣"},{"start":216.146,"end":242.956,"text":"這部分我有關心事實上我目前在做的是在提供潛在被害名單給金融帳戶因為我們是主被害名單被害名單是主帳因為加害人如果說他有前科的我們不能夠預想說他就是會成為加害人現在我們潛在的被害因為這是行政監管但是在臨櫃的時候或者是在有些潛在的被害人我們發現有些被害的這些的"},{"start":245.077,"end":258.762,"text":"的名單的話我們是希望在前面監管單專業管單就把他攔阻下來不要他成為被害人所以不然我再重複一下你是說在你是用潛在的被害名單嗎對被害名單那我的意思是說"},{"start":260.066,"end":284.87,"text":"我們包含在辦率是23%這個我們之前有提過這一些已經有累犯的就甚至我們好我們把前科犯把他因為可能過於敏感我們再把他劃掉我們針對已經有累犯他已經有前科又累犯又是詐欺犯這樣子的狀況之下有沒有辦法做這樣子的修法讓他們可以做相關的提供這部分我們再來"},{"start":287.279,"end":312.035,"text":"另外最主要是因為這剛才委員關心的就是這個前科這是屬於個資法第六條的特種的個資是不是適合去提供給金融機構去做一些的醫學預防的措施或者是它開戶或者是風險的控管那這部分可能還要再研究因為我現在我們可以就是我就再把它限縮到"},{"start":312.535,"end":339.768,"text":"詐欺的累犯因為過去我們包含酒駕的這種重複犯罪的話我們是可以直接把他的這一個包含他的這個相片還有他的過去的作案的這種詳細的狀況直接在網站上面都給他揭露出來所以是不是有可能來去做一個特別的修法來去針對累犯的前科犯累犯的這個累犯的詐欺犯把這個東西的資訊提供給金融機構做監管這部分我們在"},{"start":341.289,"end":347.934,"text":"因為我是希望可以跟法務部來討論一下就這個法條上面能不能夠來一起來研究一下好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d169cafb18dfd0bf527119a7747a4c5c6c90886039ce1be0fd0c9ded73aea8ac595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:49:05 - 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謝謝主席 我想要請莊部長好 請財政部莊部長莊部長委員好我們現在已經11月了我想請問一下今年的稅捐徵收的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":27.215,"end":43.78,"text":"跟委員報告今年到10月底為止中央的稅收是收到了2兆4673億元達成全年度的稅收預算是88.6%哇 很精準耶"},{"start":44.62,"end":61.274,"text":"是不是按照那个每一个月的进度所以今年度没有超增是不是今年度的我们没有所谓的超增也就是我们的时增数跟预算数之间什么样的达成你们就是符合预算数"},{"start":61.594,"end":89.472,"text":"今年的预算数因为比去年的实征数我们有增加了947亿元所以今年在实征数的部分要达到预算数到目前为止我们认为具有一定的挑战性我想要请问受到美国关税的影响申请延期缴纳或者是分期缴纳的企业有多少个人有多少"},{"start":91.823,"end":103.566,"text":"你們有統計嗎因為這個有延遲對不對這也其實是今年的最終是延遲的效果是會有那我們有統計那是不是會我們提供給委員這邊你們都有數字還不敢拿出來是不是手邊有沒有數字是不是有數字不敢拿出來沒有不敢那是不是這個部分你們署長說明一下好了"},{"start":119.376,"end":120.32,"text":"告訴大家一下嘛"},{"start":126.544,"end":142.699,"text":"跟委員報告大概申請延期的包含國稅跟地方稅在一起有2315件目前核准的2068件那大申請延期是125億元分期的部分合計是13572件目前核准13240件核准的491億左右"},{"start":150.606,"end":155.328,"text":"所以大概就有500億合計的話有616億你剛才說那個延遲繳納是延期跟分期加國稅跟地方稅加起來國稅是611億"},{"start":167.472,"end":189.025,"text":"國稅是611億地方稅大概5億左右5億多所以有600多億是延遲繳納也算到今年的稅收裡面是受到關稅影響我們給予它分期以及延期繳納的是不是那明年勒"},{"start":190.542,"end":210.07,"text":"明年預計出口的數字是怎麼樣你們有做規劃嗎明年的出口這個部分這個部分我們大概是全年還是講明年明年因為你現在還沒有辦法估計明年的出口啊你開始你們應該開始在做了吧是不是"},{"start":210.49,"end":229.366,"text":"我們明年當然總預算已經編的稅客收入也有一個編列的數字因為明年的稅客收入受到財化法因為有一定的比增加到地方去所以中央的稅收是比今年的稅收的預算數來的低大概差三千多億"},{"start":230.711,"end":242.708,"text":"少3000多億中央的總預算裡面中央的稅客收入比今年114年的稅客收入要減少到3000多億多少數字是多少"},{"start":251.857,"end":273.523,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們一百一十五年度的預算數我先講中央數跟一一四年度的預算數大概差了差了兩這樣是兩千多我看看這樣是兩千內地稅你要加合計數這個合計啊關稅啊這是關稅大概三千零啊三千零大概是三十八"},{"start":274.404,"end":291.617,"text":"對 差3038億主要是一頁稅一頁稅的部分因為現在大部分都變地方少了3534億好 所以就是那個部分就是變到地方去是不是對 成為地方的因為到中央統籌分配稅款裡面去了"},{"start":292.065,"end":311.22,"text":"好那如果就是等到明年的就是出口的數字出來的時候再麻煩給我的辦公室一份好嗎可以我們出口每一個月都會在月中的時候會在記者會裡面去報告有關出口的數據好那再麻煩你好謝謝我想要請農業部長"},{"start":323.447,"end":335.827,"text":"部長 我想請問一下喔未來的廚餘養豬喔要採取怎麼樣的做法是不是用就是說已經不用廚餘而是把廚餘再製成飼料"},{"start":336.772,"end":366.638,"text":"我跟委員說明現在目前還在做一些討論那其中有一個方法就是說我們將現有的廚藝把它飼料化那飼料化可以規格化的時候那繼續可以讓豬來吃這是一個方式另外一個方式就是說用高溫蒸煮的方式但是高溫蒸煮一定要符合相關的規範包括它即時監控還有落實茶的部分那這個部分我想我們已經在跟環境部做一些討論然後應該很快就應該會有一個比較好的"},{"start":366.738,"end":394.401,"text":"不能夠全部飼料化是目前我們飼料再製的就是能量不足嗎現在因為廚餘的部分以環境部來講他後端的再利用如果說貿然的就是停止廚餘養豬的時候他的後面的廚餘沒辦法沒辦法完全的去化會造成一些環境問題所以我們在考慮說是不是應該有一個過渡期那過渡期以後我們看怎麼處理我們現在"},{"start":395.282,"end":417.65,"text":"你記得我在經濟委員會質詢過你有關於黑水盟的事情就是我有跟環境部也去共同看了黑水盟的處理廚餘的方式我不曉得你們對於黑水盟處理廚餘的方式的探盤查的方法學你們有沒有對它做認證了"},{"start":418.59,"end":447.141,"text":"可以了嗎你們上一次說要再討論以現在黑水盲去餵廚餘本身的飼料化本身那技術上已經沒問題了現在說這個方法後面的這些飼料只能用家禽的飼料不能用在豬的部分這是國際的規範所以我們希望說它是一個去廚餘的方法但是應該還有其他的像您剛才講的就是廚餘用一些"},{"start":448.041,"end":477.707,"text":"一些其他的工业的方法我是说这个部分那个陈部长你要回去因为这个问题我也问了第二次我知道这个我们已经技术没问题了就是减碳的方法学对我知道减碳的方法学现在已经在他们已经在评估看看他的本身的那个值那个值如果够的话才值得去做方法学对那我们也希望说能够减少我们台湾的厨余那找到一个可用的方法那这个部分再麻烦你"},{"start":478.067,"end":479.19,"text":"好 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辛苦了這個在上個禮拜三的時候其實我就在金管會我們就問過這個問題了那時候我是認為說我們都是要等到美國的司法部還有財政部要求台灣配合調查之後我們才開始展開這個行動所以那時候我也問了這個同局長就是說你們這個申報的資料到底有沒有交給這個調查局還有有關的單位那時候同局長的答覆是說有有做了52次的申報"},{"start":48.261,"end":60.963,"text":"那這方面我先請這個同區長再做細一點的答覆這52次的申報是從2019年開始嗎那是分幾年申報了幾次還是都是在2019年申報的"},{"start":62.063,"end":78.328,"text":"一半的這個量是在2019年的時候申報的一半 一半 26次 2019年那之後勒大概就是其中有22次的部分是集中在2019年的時候就108年的時候"},{"start":80.248,"end":94.413,"text":"那之後呢是因為有些案件是因為他金額的往來並不是很大那因為被媒體揭露了之後呢這些金融機構才進行相關的申報那所以後來到最後是申報是到哪個時候"},{"start":95.673,"end":105.816,"text":"就是到最新的大概是現在為止到現在為止那分佈時間也很久啊從2019年你說20幾次22還26大概22次22次申報那後來還有30幾次就是從2019 2020年到現在也5年的時間陸陸續續會申報好"},{"start":114.358,"end":129.788,"text":"那我問了之後那這個可能要請陳局長來做答覆了那我想說那52申報為什麼沒有任何的舉動啊沒有採取任何的行動啊那隔天你們就發布了新聞稿就說有你們有去做了延邊加值金融情報26件就表示這26件是有情報價值的"},{"start":132.229,"end":142.935,"text":"這可以繼續再追查下去的對 會診出來又覺得更有可疑的我們就把它研編出來然後分送給那也是在2019年的時候嗎不是 這從2019年到現在陸陸續續陸陸續續好 那我問了26件你們認為說有這個情報價值然後勒之後呢"},{"start":152.23,"end":178.715,"text":"按兵不動等到美國的司法部財政部要求要調查之後我們才開始做謝謝 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那所以他在台灣他從這個2019年開始之後"},{"start":226.073,"end":242.509,"text":"在台灣買了8棟的豪宅8戶啦8戶的豪宅然後金額總共花了38億然後這個豪宅都是登記在同一個人身上那個人的忠義叫做林忠良這個你們都有掌握到嘛"},{"start":243.69,"end":266.525,"text":"你們沒有認為說他是不是洗錢啊為什麼在和平大院買了8戶然後總共花了這個38億然後都是集中在2019年密集買入而且這些8家公司都是空殼公司都登記在豪宅裡面你們沒有任何的懷疑有當然有懷疑有懷疑然後呢所以我們現在因為這個本案的主嫌從110年出境他就沒有再進來了"},{"start":268.768,"end":286.404,"text":"那在台灣沒有任何人了嗎台灣就是他的這些我問局長如果沒有美國司法部財政部要求我們配合調查的話所以繼續在那邊等待嗎其實本案美國沒有要求我們配合調查本案美國在起訴的時候他也沒有通知我"},{"start":287.886,"end":302.527,"text":"那為什麼剛好大家都是14號15號開始他一公告制裁的時候我們就知道就是說大家都動了所以當然這個時候我們也有默契我們就馬上要啟動這個案件這個相關的這些資產的扣押這也是有通知我們嘛"},{"start":304.46,"end":318.706,"text":"這個不用他通知嘛我們其實看新聞看上對有默契啊這個大家國際之間大家有默契我那時候說如果如果不是在那個司法部起訴之後列了這一個有台灣人的名字然後還有酒後在和平大院裡面你們不會採取行動嘛對不對"},{"start":320.286,"end":338.427,"text":"他是說9家公司啊美國也不知道有資產在理大院我的問題大家的疑問我早上聽了這麼久就是說你們已經有情報了然後也知道說在這邊有掌握有掌握啊然後呢就沒有然後了啊所以就是說在美方公告制裁以後我們在兩國內我們就要馬上執行啊"},{"start":340.789,"end":368.383,"text":"宣告制裁之後我們才開啟行動嘛對不對那大家的疑問就在於說那如果沒有美國的這一次制裁的行動的話那我們是不是就繼續在那邊安兵不動繼續的等在那邊我們也想要抓到陳志啊講白了一點就是這樣子啊你們又想要抓到他如果祖賢他沒有入境的話我們怎麼會去除了祖賢之外難道旁邊沒有周圍那些小弟嗎你沒抓到大頭沒有用啊"},{"start":369.663,"end":396.648,"text":"那所以你就在那邊一直等嗎我的意思是說就在那邊一直等嗎而且你對於他們洗錢洗把這個錢洗成說這個豪宅名車你們沒有任何的一些警覺性嗎這個就算你們這段期間做了很多的努力這個14號之後當美國的司法部一起訴之後你們馬上就說有我們都準備好了你看我們都已經知道說誰是誰了豪宅名車我們都知道了隔幾天就馬上去追了"},{"start":398.226,"end":421.271,"text":"可是如果沒有美國的這個行動的話那是不是都還是在那邊大家彼此都還在情報交換其實大家也都想要去抓到這個層次不是啊那你現在層次也沒有進來我們還不是要照抄因為就是說大家通通都已經曝光了嘛那當然我們不執行不行我們不執行的話他的資產萬一移走我們不是更糟"},{"start":422.311,"end":437.296,"text":"這個就是大家在懷疑的地方那這個也是到目前為止我認為啦因為我早上也有聽我認為就是不論是部長局長或是說各位沒有把大家心中的疑點說出來你就是等到15號之後才開始行動了嘛之前都是準備埋伏"},{"start":440.2,"end":463.129,"text":"對啊是這樣子啦所以你是要等到美國的信號是這樣子美國的信號開始之後才開始追嘛包委員還有另外一個重點啦因為他這個整個的犯罪其實是在國外啦那以我們台灣的部分來說他把錢洗成豪宅跟民車把資產藏在一部分啦是洗了45億耶一部分"},{"start":464.109,"end":491.058,"text":"其他國家更多英國有1.3億的美金我說在台灣至少有洗了45億嘛對不對是 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局長有嗎沒有"},{"start":743.303,"end":759.017,"text":"委員你問到重點我之前都白問了就對了依照那個洗錢防治法除了金融機構他有申報的義務其實那個不動產經濟業還有地震室他也都有申報的義務他有申報嗎"},{"start":760.418,"end":788.536,"text":"對 沒有 沒有申報以本案來說啦就是說我們未來還需要再進進的地方應該就是我剛剛提到這兩部分但是就銀行來講我剛剛已經有講過銀行他該盡的責任他已經申報了但他買了這麼多豪宅其實在這中間會經過不動產經紀業者也會經過地震室那不動產經紀業跟地震室其實應該也要去做KYC啦那接下來漏洞要怎麼補起來啦"},{"start":790.871,"end":796.293,"text":"這個大概我們會跟相關的部會去建議應該這是監理的問題這是哪裡 內政部嗎監理的問題我們有提出建議你們要趕快把這個洞補起來"},{"start":806.203,"end":833.811,"text":"这个如果每次看到新闻诈骗集团被抓到之后他们就是住豪宅就是开民车大家觉得说就住诈骗集团就好了对这个本案虽然其实我们有成功的扣到这些整个太子集团的这些资产但是台高检署其实也针对本案也召开了各部会的一个会议来研究说就这个案子来说我们还有没有什么可以再精进的地方就像你刚才讲的"},{"start":834.772,"end":839.666,"text":"那委員問的啦對啊 就是這個要把它補起來這段時間把它補起來好不好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1f9824676955b984e7119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498a44d40c79ee0f93675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:57:15 - 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部長好我在手上有一本這個台灣安全台灣全民的安全指引我發現我這本其實是舊版因為你們新版還特別把這個馬灘系的顏色湖有把它加進去是不是"},{"start":53.724,"end":70.956,"text":"對 應該就是有些大自然災變的部分我們覺得有與時漸進的話那國安會指導我們就把它放到裡面去因為我這個是比較少拿到的版本所以這裡面的版本 我比對了一下這個新的版本裡面還有花蓮馬太安溪的這個煙色湖"},{"start":73.317,"end":95.893,"text":"然後如何遇到危險的時候天災的時候怎麼去做防範因為我們會遇到這本書裡面這個其實有天災有人禍預防天災就是我們剛剛常講的颱風 地震 土石流 煙車等等還有包含就是說遇到的威脅有可能是軍事侵略都寫在這裡面對不對"},{"start":98.8,"end":102.363,"text":"那請問一下部長 這本手冊是從今天開始普發嗎是開始作業 要分地區對 因為我看國防部還有內政部有說明是採取用選舉公報的方式做普發就對了是不是"},{"start":122.583,"end":150.061,"text":"對 就是我們會透過民政系統來協助普發這個全民安全國防組織那大概最晚是哪時候全民可以拿到這一本書因為我覺得這本書其實編得蠻好的明年初 明年初過年前 希望1月對 農曆 農曆明年農曆過年前都能夠拿到其實我是覺得啦我們自己的這一個不管是景蕭益 蕭明房啊他們這一本應該都要好好的去參閱一下因為其實裡面蠻多值得參考的地方啦"},{"start":151.176,"end":173.092,"text":"報告委員 警消 民防 疫消他們本來就要會這些不是只有拿這個來參考而且他們還要救人所以不太一樣裡面的資訊是蠻新的啦是好 那謝謝劉部長接下來請這一個我們財政部莊部長好 請莊部長還有主計處我們這個陳主計長好 陳主計長這個有一些可能要說明一下免得被外界"},{"start":180.987,"end":202.338,"text":"誤會啦說昨天你們有找這個各縣市的這個財主單位有來開會是不是然後呢這個我看你們開會的主要是中央跟地方的事權的劃分原則嘛所以主要是在講這一個事權的劃分原則嘛因為財劃法的這一個水平分配的話應該之前財政部就有說過了嘛"},{"start":203.499,"end":218.837,"text":"就是說我們水平分配的指標大概是哪些大概都有講過了所以昨天我看有很多的在野黨今天就拿說怎麼兩張Air Force兩張Air Force就要來決定財務法這個主計長要對外講清楚"},{"start":221.505,"end":245.816,"text":"是 這個部分我們主要是針對市權的一個原則和結構來做說明而且它大部分市權的一個分派大部分跟114年度大致相同是大家各縣市所熟悉的一個方式所以這個部分在整個一個紙張方面就沒有那個只做一個簡報的一個分析它一張一個說明這樣"},{"start":246.536,"end":270.064,"text":"因為它是跟114年度的一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款原則上是都一樣還有包括一般性補助款裡面的一個基本財政收支差短移到統籌分配稅去這樣我們是就針對原則性的一個說明所以這個部分並沒有涉及到整個財劃法裡面它一個財源分配的一個問題那我接下來請莊部長"},{"start":274.665,"end":297.959,"text":"那這個我們這個行政院版的這個財化法是明天會送院會是的 明天會提報院會討論那麼在院會之後會有記者會我們會詳細的報告跟大家報告財化法修正案的一個整體價格就是它的垂直跟水平就對了對 都會報告好 那我先問一下這個垂直分配來講的話會比這一個114年度的這一個分配的款項還要多嗎"},{"start":305.53,"end":314.838,"text":"會比114年就是三項合計中央統籌分配稅款加一般性補助款加計劃型補助款會比114年當然會增加也會比115年的總規模來的增加那增加去年是多少"},{"start":323.024,"end":351.814,"text":"一兆零一百三十一億那一百一十五年是一兆一千六百八十三億所以多多少多多少那明天會約會討論後再來做一個試算因為這個設計我們基本上是用像一一五年是用一一五年的稅客收入來計算所以垂直分配基本上會比一百一十四年還多就對了會多的那這個統籌分配款的部分呢因為今年等於是四千四百多億"},{"start":352.934,"end":354.957,"text":"4676億那115年是8874億那我們在三項佳績會比這114跟115年都增加那中央統籌分配稅款的規模當然我們要考慮到市權的一個調整也就是剛剛主席長所講的"},{"start":371.838,"end":386.265,"text":"那在這個有關市權調整也就屬於地方自治的事項要回歸到地方去辦理的事項有哪一些但是會在中央統籌分配稅款裡面把它放到基準財政收的需要額裡面去也就是說會把它納入"},{"start":387.706,"end":410.294,"text":"是不是就是說我可以講就是說因為市權你們有做重新的調整了市權做按照地方自治事項做一些回歸的部分那當然一般性補助款也還是會有那計劃型補助款也還是會有那所以因為市權做了調整了原本是要由地方來做處理過去由中央來支付的未來會回到地方來做處理"},{"start":411.919,"end":435.205,"text":"部分不是全部那就是屬於經常性的經常性常態性的對那所以這樣子的話整個統籌分配款是因為這樣增加嗎除了這個當然還有其他的因素我們認為要提升地方財政自主一向來就是財化法在我們在財政部討論以後行政院討論的時候提升地方的財政自主本來就是我們的一個目標"},{"start":436.405,"end":456.207,"text":"那最後再問 如果按照這一個因為我們願版是明天才送那接下來要送到立法院來那如果按照這個在野黨他們目前所通過的這一個財務法的修正案的話那你們有提過第一個自愛難行 要舉債那舉債又會違反這個公債法然後總預算也不可能主席長 總預算也不可能退回去從邊"},{"start":458.977,"end":469.727,"text":"因為他要增加2646億那超過舉債的一個上限所以我們這是沒有辦法的對 也沒辦法退回去從邊那這個也會違反了公債法的舉債上限15%的規定那怎麼辦"},{"start":477.213,"end":504.298,"text":"我們現在要循憲政的一個程序來做救濟可是第一個你如果要服役的話也不會過我想政治現實第二個我們這個大法官現在也沒辦法來做這個事先案的這個裁判那所以呢所以我們有新的裁判法提出來我們希望也是大家希望用現在的裁判法來做處理就對了大家一起共同來討論然後來看這個有沒有一個"},{"start":504.858,"end":513.181,"text":"所以新的財化法是能夠解決目前的僵局就對了可以 希望如此好 謝謝好 謝謝李坤勝委員"}]}},{"id":"165640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1c4ade78b39a4db917e24dce8f91e16ee662daff7a264498aeebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:59:34 - 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上次當然回答我你是 女法官我們行事廳的法事法官你電話給我打電話"},{"start":52.779,"end":78.391,"text":"我再問他說你們那個我問你們副秘書長結果你們與法官來回答我問你們說啊可以不適用國民法官法審理就是第一項第四款有規定被告就被訴事實為有罪的陳述我認罪了然後再來經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當"},{"start":80.672,"end":89.377,"text":"我問你們說這個條文後半段是什麼意思什麼叫做依案件情節認不行國民參與審判為適當可不可以舉個例子給我聽聽看你們與法官講了他說涉及到生命法義的對吧法官你當時這樣講吧我再問你說什麼狀況可以不要適用國民法官審理"},{"start":105.146,"end":117.291,"text":"你再跟我講 涉及到生命法義的 那就是一定本來就適用了一定要用 我問你可以哪些不用用你回答我說 一定要用的你把我整笑了 來 聽電話你說"},{"start":119.421,"end":137.907,"text":"跟委員說明一下國民法官的立法意旨沒有不要跟我講那麼多時間有限你就回答我這第四款的這個文字第一個當事人這個已經認罪了後半段是什麼意思你舉個例子讓我了解一下"},{"start":139.144,"end":151.37,"text":"譬如說他量刑的部分他跟檢察官的求刑或是辯護的或是被告的對刑度的部分你現在是在亂講什麼經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指"},{"start":152.358,"end":173.675,"text":"且依案件情節認為不行國民參與審判為適當這句話是在說什麼委員可不可以讓我慢慢把它陳述出來這個條文你們 你就回答我這個就好我不需要你再去論述法律是你們定的 條文也是你定的叫你舉例說明你舉不出來啊"},{"start":174.943,"end":203.724,"text":"我要舉例的說這個是跟他講說可以行國民法官的時候對不對我們跟他講說你要不要認罪那你認罪之後呢他認為說他可能對相關的刑度或者證據調查他都全部沒有什麼特別的意見那法院認為說檢察官或是辯護人對相關的請求不行國民法官的請求任何適當的話就可以不讓他進行國民法官回到通常程序去審理"},{"start":204.685,"end":232.068,"text":"是這個情形啊對 你講得太好了所以我再跟你講有個案發生啊個案就是第一個 當事人認罪了啊量刑上他也沒意見啊然後跟被害者的家屬也和解了啊然後被害人家屬也表達說我們不想用國民法官審理啊然後你們的第六條第一項第四款也允許啊你們的法官不准人家不准人家"},{"start":233.786,"end":249.159,"text":"回到一般審理耶你這個個案是這樣 你這條法律定罪是在沒好法律啦條件通通都符合了 但法官就不願意 為什麼你知道嗎因為跟事務分配有關啊 第一個"},{"start":250.02,"end":253.043,"text":"你這個法官把他交到交到這個國民法官來審理的時候我讓你折抵案件你分案量可以折很少但是你不能中途而廢也不能夠中途停止也不能夠允許被告退出你認罪了然後你呢對這個刑責也沒有意見了和解了他還是不准他退出為什麼你知道嗎因為"},{"start":277.884,"end":302.336,"text":"因為要到判決 國民法官審理到判決結束一個成審法官還可以再減10個分案還可以再折抵10個分案 多香多甜啊可不可以給我一點時間跟委員說一下各法院對於事務分配跟審理國民法官案件跟一般案情事案件的折抵進行 每個法院都不一樣"},{"start":304.118,"end":322.238,"text":"每個法院的分案方式也不一樣你說說看平均分案的時候折抵幾件判決的時候折抵幾件文貴你平均啊你不要在這裡顧左右而言我沒辦法比平均因為每個折抵方式完全不一樣以台中地院為例它是直接分給審判長的"},{"start":323.92,"end":349.073,"text":"那我也跟你講 教你這樣講你不要再教我 第六條 第一項第四款這個規定不好的 有什麼不好符合規定 你們的法官來硬要人家陪你們完成這個國民法官的審判不行國民法官 這是個例外我們不希望由當事人來選擇行國民法官或是不行國民法官所以這由法院來做最終的裁量 更個案的裁量來決定"},{"start":350.794,"end":376.849,"text":"你們其實就是要鼓勵要這個國民參審啦欸 這個問題這麼嚴重耶現在國民法官的問題還不只是這樣子喔現在我問你啦國民法官審理的時候職業法官跟國民法官可以事先閱卷嗎不可以事先閱卷 我們是採取卷證不併送對 卷證不併送 對嘛可是你們的職業法官都已經提早知道卷沒有啊"},{"start":380.177,"end":400.411,"text":"我們還特別在法院組織法第四條之一你們要開庭的時候強制處分庭跟國民法官法庭要把它分開本來審理的法官跟強制處分庭的法官分開沒關係你現在不要說理論的理論上是這樣子但實際上就不是這樣子為什麼要卷證不併送"},{"start":401.272,"end":413.398,"text":"我們就避免偏見跟欲斷對 避免偏見跟欲斷可是呢 法官沒有卷你們在開準備庭程序準備的時候是不是這一個職業法官在開的"},{"start":414.861,"end":416.742,"text":"但是他看不到內容 他只有看到證據的一些清單跟名稱而已 阿伯公 阿伯公你們在準備庭的時候檢察官會開示證據 然後要申請證據調查"},{"start":431.351,"end":434.273,"text":"開示證據是開示給辯護人互相開示這個是證據開示我再問你他要申請證據調查你的職業法官會不會問啊問說啊你這個為什麼要這樣主張否則職業法官怎麼判斷要不要給他看他是根據他的所謂的他主張要申請調查證據他說明證據的關聯性"},{"start":452.248,"end":456.109,"text":"證據的關聯性就會講到案情啊所以你們預斷啊 先入為主啊有心證啊 怎麼不會呢他要判斷要不要給國民法官看是職業法官在決定這個職業法官必須在審理 審查證據之後才把證據提出來交給當場調查證據完畢之後 相關的證據才復卷"},{"start":479.96,"end":487.01,"text":"檢辯會申請要調查證據法官要裁定要不要提供證據給國民法官看法官要怎麼裁定的標準會問他們為什麼需要"},{"start":495.186,"end":517.246,"text":"對 沒錯為什麼需要的時候就會講到關聯性關聯性跟必要性的調查但是不涉及到裡面的內容關聯性 必要性就是資訊你的法官 職業法官就不是空白跟國民法官一樣空白好 為什麼不給國民法官看證據這個要不要給他們看 這個事情很重要"},{"start":518.408,"end":531.279,"text":"有可能啊 某一個被告他做了四份筆錄有沒有可能檢察官申請 我只看兩份有沒有可能這是慎選證據的結果啦 對啊但是檢察官會怎麼慎選證據 你知道嗎他可以把不利於被告的 他可以你常常 我不跟你講喔 你要聽我說我問題要不說 你在搶著干擾我的發言"},{"start":542.779,"end":570.332,"text":"某個被告他做了四份筆錄檢察官有沒有可能把這個不利於這個被告的就申請請求提供要提供這個證據筆錄給這個可能兩份而已給這個國民法官看可是一共有四份他只申請兩份有沒有可能的確有可能那他是不是篩選過的 是"},{"start":572.56,"end":589.967,"text":"那職業法官在審理的時候在那裡他要裁釋 如果職業法官真的不知道沒有看過卷證 他們不知道有幾份嘛他就說好 裁定兩份 可是事實上有四份四份裡面有可能有利於被告的他可能就沒有申請了"},{"start":592.191,"end":596.813,"text":"然後呢 被告你沒有 我訂禮拜來這裡你不會來 所有被告 都簽沒有法官普通法官不該發這種訴訟然後呢 有專報 將近九成都是法服的律師"},{"start":607.757,"end":632.152,"text":"如果檢察官做了四份筆錄把不利於被告的兩份去申請來看了結果呢法服的律師也剛好沒有看到也不知道事實上有四份筆錄所以他沒有去主張那個被告的辯護人他沒有去主張或是他主張了法官不採其他另外兩份要拿出來看的話"},{"start":633.297,"end":651.754,"text":"所以送給國民法官看的證據是職業法官裁的他可能知情也有可能是不知情的他裁定了請問只提供兩份這有沒有可能有篩選過了誤導了國民法官了你證據的提供這個是誤導國民法官的"},{"start":657.796,"end":679.449,"text":"然後誣導國民法官以後國民法官看到兩份而已嘛所以他就判了 他就誤判了然後誤判以後 能不能改判來 能不能改判我們國民法官法對於判決有特殊規定喔特別法有特殊規定 什麼規定來 你可以回答了行國民參與審判的案件"},{"start":681.874,"end":697.568,"text":"他判決以後有什麼特殊規定如果要上訴有什麼特別規定他會違反論理法則經驗法則之後才可以上訴好 你講對了所以前幾天有報紙說國民法官判決的二審都沒有人推翻 廢話因為這是法律強制規定的"},{"start":701.744,"end":708.849,"text":"法律強制規定除了國民法官違背經驗法則或論理法則顯然影響於判決者否則不可以改判"},{"start":716.144,"end":735.604,"text":"不可以改判這個91條 國民法官法 91條跟92條意思是什麼 除非啦 國民法官喔說兇手是女的 結果你判男的有罪這一種才可以改判啦 否則全部不能改判所以我剛剛講啊 我從程序面來講從程序面來講 你們"},{"start":740.741,"end":750.135,"text":"職業法官在準備程序的時候呢在準備程序的時候不管他到底是不知情"},{"start":751.311,"end":770.87,"text":"也有可能是故意包庇啊或是故意的啊知情的他對於這個申請調查證據的時候他可能知道有四個筆錄但他只提供兩個他也有大部分我寧願相信他不知道有四份筆錄所以檢察官申請兩份的時候他就核定了然後呢在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":776.144,"end":794.871,"text":"在這種狀況裡面檢察官一定站在對自己有利嘛未來審判的時候有利於他起訴的這個要件的這個立場去申請調查證據嘛然後辯護律師我來囉辯護律師的問題是什麼法服你們付多少錢法服律師都通常一個案件收多少錢"},{"start":796.051,"end":806.165,"text":"法輔辯護律師一個案件收多少錢我們北法輔他可以複數的委任他可以最多可以辯到三個法輔律師好啦 多少錢啦7萬3千塊7萬3千元是7萬4千元 欸 明年明年"},{"start":812.954,"end":841.03,"text":"10年以上的通通都要適用國民法官法大概會有274件我要講這個喔我講這個是知識體大現在的是重大的殺人死亡的這個案件喔可是明年是10年以上會有什麼案件你知道嗎比如說公務員違背職務收賄明年用在國民法官法的這個審理上面你知道貪賭案件卷宗"},{"start":842.216,"end":851.822,"text":"多非常多 比殺人 酒駕撞死人的卷宗還要多百倍也有可能 數十倍 百倍你們付給人家7萬元你相信更多是3萬 5萬而已 法服的律師他們會花多少時間他們能有多少時間收到3萬 5萬 7萬你不要講那個極端可以一次聘3個的"},{"start":870.234,"end":882.208,"text":"然後呢 仔細看 看得很清楚然後呢他可以充分的為這個被告去辯護所以在這種狀況裡面這個姿勢體大 很嚴重啊上級審 你在"},{"start":888.835,"end":916.825,"text":"申請調查證據的時候法官都不知道是真的不知道還是假的不知道我們說他是真的不知道了真的不知道這個證據有幾份然後就同意檢察官的申請然後呢影響了國民法官然後造成了誤判誤判以後一審以後還不能夠二審不能改判一定要遵照國民法官的審判法律規定不能改判"},{"start":917.998,"end":935.009,"text":"這樣這件事 感到這樣感到都完全不需要檢討的啊 制度都做完畢都不用檢討啊跟委員說明一下我們相信檢察官有客觀義務他對被告有利不利的他都要注意啦你現在不要說這種的啦"},{"start":938.769,"end":962.87,"text":"我現在在說的是這個制度你們不覺得這種制度其實應該可以要討論一下嗎你們現在在這裡就直接強力辯護一路辯護到底你們整個國民法官法你們的施行細則你們沒有訴訟法國民法官的訴訟法你們全部定在施行細則341條多如牛毛而且在裡面都用特別架構"},{"start":963.931,"end":980.329,"text":"然後在施行席則裡面然後呢直接說我排除其他法律的適用這個都已經很荒謬了所以我在講有沒有一種可能啦我幫你們講救濟的方法你不給人家救濟的方法你在制度面執行上真的有可能會有問題喔"},{"start":985.575,"end":994.561,"text":"那你需不需要思考另一種救濟 譬如說被駁回辯方申請調查的可以上訴到二審"},{"start":996.738,"end":1018.868,"text":"對不對比如說你們的這個證據調查的準備程序的時候呢你還有原來的職業法官去決定要什麼東西給國民法官看什麼東西不要這個過程職業法官不會多多少少都形成新證嗎他絕對不會跟國民法官一樣是"},{"start":1020.629,"end":1045.462,"text":"空白的來聽的不會絕對不會你不覺得這種制度在準備程序的時候證據調查的時候有可能你需要配套式讓別組的法官來處理這個準備程序而不是受命要處理這個審理這個個案的法官直接來處理這個準備程序你不覺得"},{"start":1047.253,"end":1057.905,"text":"真真正正職業法官跟國民法官同時接觸到這個案子這樣子才是最好的嗎謝謝委員的指教我可以回答嗎"},{"start":1060.973,"end":1077.753,"text":"就關於剛剛委員左指教的細則340幾條的細則有沒有排除相關的刑事訴訟特別規定事實上如果委員有仔細看國民法官法第四條的它就寫本條有特別規定除本條有特別規定還是適用刑事訴訟或其他的法律規定"},{"start":1078.414,"end":1082.197,"text":"所以在上次委員在質詢的時候有關八十八條你現在算概括性啦全部一句話就全部都排除啊連訴訟程序連訴訟程序你們都訴訟程序都定在這個施行細則裡面施行細則都可以排除母法了不是"},{"start":1099.55,"end":1101.152,"text":"國民法 國民法 國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法"},{"start":1124.171,"end":1142.135,"text":"因為大家我想麻煩那個林委員因為我們今天時間已經超過很多了然後呢明天明天我們正好會繼續開嗎明天而且主要是司法院明天主要就是因為司法院然後我們明天再來對副秘書長也會到明天主要就是司法院"},{"start":1142.435,"end":1146.437,"text":"因為今天其實聽了林委員他針對國民法官制度的問題非常嚴重其實本行有觀察到所以我想很多的議題是不是就留待明天然後再來繼續拷問好不好"},{"start":1164.024,"end":1178.651,"text":"也請聽長剛剛林委員提到的那些建議我們會把陳孝平委員會有提到相關問題需要討論的問題今天都通通提供過來我們把它用書面給委員參考今天通通就都要提供過來了沒問題那我們這些問題明天可以繼續討論好 謝謝謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"165637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d12d57995ca28386860799e8a58cec5c3e662daff7a264498a083d1f73e27fc1505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:55:44 - 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主席請一下石部長請石部長央委員好部長好 部長我們我們今天處理就是有關家庭暴力防治法的部分修正草案那"},{"start":29.628,"end":57.28,"text":"只要有關刑罰的東西呢都必須要把握住罪跟刑必須要相當像剛剛林淑芬委員講到的像這個我倒是沒有注意到就是違反家暴令的刑責比傷害罪輕這個顯然是有問題的因為家暴令的核發"},{"start":58.681,"end":86.097,"text":"通常是先有傷害才有合法通常啦不是全部啦不過通常那只是因為被害人可能都是家庭裡面的成員所以他沒有直接提出刑事訴訟法的告訴是這樣子所以我覺得這個在修法的時候你們應該要贊同的就是刑度把它"},{"start":86.65,"end":115.684,"text":"把他拉到最少跟傷害罪一樣是合理的部長我請教一下就是說國內有學者研究指出我們在核發民事保護令的案件中家暴者假如有犯罪前科精神疾病或者是對被害人有嚴重的肢體暴力也就是說有暴力形象的性暴力脅迫控制"},{"start":116.673,"end":142.817,"text":"跟監有上訴這種類型的家暴令的案件呢其實就是再犯率或者是違反保護令的情況會比較顯著那我想要請教一下就是對於這種情形你們有沒有什麼措施"},{"start":144.264,"end":173.178,"text":"特別的措施來達到有效的對加害被害人的保護有沒有跟委員報告這大概分兩段一段有這些評估可能會提供給檢察官那麼作為在核發保護令的時候是不是要先暫時或者是用暫時保護令或者是緊急保護令的方式來執行來說短這個空窗期的這是一個用途"},{"start":173.778,"end":193.599,"text":"那當然第二個呢也藉這個評估的結果如果有這些情形的話那當然就要更強化比如說我們就會提供有那個110視訊的報案的APP那麼教導這個被害人那如何適當的保護自己及時的求援等等這些的"},{"start":193.979,"end":212.121,"text":"那這個可能就是有關宣傳的部分還是必須要對 要多宣傳 還有對第一線人員的教育因為我們就有一些制度跟措施可能需要用的人並不知道那這個就政府的責任 好不好"},{"start":213.901,"end":241.522,"text":"我看大家大概對於家庭暴力的加害者加裝相關的科技設備監控大概還蠻一致性的啦就是這個可以有效的防止嘛我這邊有一個數據是澳洲的研究澳洲假如佩戴電子腳鐐的家暴者一年內再犯"},{"start":242.935,"end":270.763,"text":"家暴罪行的機率降低了三成那我第一個問題想要先請教一下部長你覺得加裝電子腳療然後降低三成這個是表示科技監控是有效的還是效果可能沒有像我們想像中那麼好降低三成嗎"},{"start":273.186,"end":299.793,"text":"這個報告我沒有仔細的看過啦我不曉得他這個其實我也沒有我這個問題是臨時在這裡才想到的就是說三成到底算不算是有效嚇阻像我就不覺得因為我們要算嘛就是說沒有加裝電子腳療的"},{"start":301.226,"end":322.246,"text":"可能他也會他受了受了保護令的拘束他可能可能本來也會降低那加了電子腳療降低三成降低三成可能也不算是很有效那我還是那個觀念就是很多很多很多"},{"start":323.68,"end":349.603,"text":"很多措施的推動它並不能直接阻止遺憾的發生這個還是必須要透過長期的家庭溝通或是怎麼樣這個問題我是剛剛才想到要問的因為我的問題是在底下我的問題是這樣子 就是說"},{"start":352.718,"end":352.859,"text":"就是說"},{"start":354.833,"end":382.655,"text":"像西班牙 法國他們也都已經把應該世界各國有很多把家暴案件導入科技監控了而且是雙向的就是可能不只是像電子佼佼可能也可以像是我們當初部長有參與整個COVID-19的防疫過程可能像我們當初那種社群APP"},{"start":384.295,"end":409.98,"text":"那很多國家大概都已經有導入那就是說假如有接近在監控中心也會發出警告並可以發出求救的訊號提升被害人的保護的安全保護對於家暴者"},{"start":411.872,"end":429.864,"text":"的雙向監控被害人也可以知道加害者的動態有沒有接近當然不是說他到哪裡他都知道就是有沒有接近自己他會知道這個衛福部應該是會贊成對不對"},{"start":434.971,"end":458.312,"text":"應該是這樣講 如果是定點 這個像監控有兩種一種是定點 一種是移動式監控以我們過去執行這個COVID-19的經驗來講 定點的準確率是高啦就是你就被在隔離個處鎖 然後定在那個地方如果你這個訊號有移出 我們就會打電話確認你在哪裡這個執行上應該是比較沒有問題"},{"start":459.153,"end":483.563,"text":"但是這種移動式的在剛剛您提到那個社群APP那個錯誤率還蠻高的當時候在執行那個Force Along是蠻高的因為這個應該是我還是要講啦當然我們對於家庭暴力的防治必須要很盡心可是呢罪行還是要相當"},{"start":484.543,"end":507.023,"text":"因為我看電子腳療通常是用於防止逃亡目前是用防逃對不對最主要是這樣子那假如說要把它加在家庭暴力的加害人會不會過度"},{"start":509.355,"end":523.556,"text":"我這邊沒有立場會不會過度我覺得大家應該要想一想我們等到主條的時候大家好好討論那當然最好的方式可能就是我們看怎麼精進當初"},{"start":525.238,"end":542.639,"text":"當初COVID-19的經驗做出單項的警示三項啦 可能跟司法單位的三項的監控這樣子應該是最好的好 謝謝部長 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我們再請陳主委還有園民會曾主委委員好主委好"},{"start":18.944,"end":35.67,"text":"今天早上上午九點我們法談案自救會青年他們到本院表達強烈的訴求在那邊抗議因為光復鄉公有十四個村有七個村受災總戶數是五千零一十一戶有一千八百三十七家戶受災"},{"start":36.69,"end":62.427,"text":"那目前申請的中居屋有41戶不過他們最在乎的就是說居住權益跟家園復建的經費是10.02億元佔總預算的比例約3.7%所以請問我們兩位主委面對災民的慘重損失中央政府要如何評估說服受災戶說已經預算不到4%的經費你要如何家園重建公務員報告"},{"start":66.603,"end":78.376,"text":"這個是我們內政部編的這個預算是我想說預算的比例偏低有沒有辦法說在按照部落的需求跟在地當地族人的需求能夠調高跟委員報告這個"},{"start":81.448,"end":96.958,"text":"特別預算是根據特別條例然後這個政黨協商出來的總數那現在省了就是所以目前看來是沒有辦法說馬上做調整嘛這個就是送來大院來申請那我要說的是就是說我們有一定的預算是要蓋中繼宅"},{"start":102.361,"end":116.301,"text":"所以有需求的大概60幾戶所以如果說60幾戶的中繼宅那個預算是夠的那其他就是關於這個水利設施或者是農地的補償或農地的重劃那這些都有足夠的預算"},{"start":117.983,"end":133.837,"text":"針對家園重建的話我們不能說這樣看起來是足夠的還是按照的需求比如說族人的需求當地居民的需求你估算以後才可以說是多少錢光復鄉不只是阿美族啦還有客家人還有平地人"},{"start":134.697,"end":156.662,"text":"我們那個錢 每戶35萬針對保全戶跟受災戶35萬是提供給大家做一種家園的清理 復原當然有一些是財損是補助 衛助性質並不是補償或者負責要重建或者就是個人的房屋的重建我想這個非常不同的意義"},{"start":157.702,"end":183.932,"text":"那我們還是呼籲說我們內政部園民會能夠用最簡化的程序最快的速度將補助送到災民的手中全部都發下去了一站式服務在那邊就陸續都發放下去前幾天我們去了名利我相信主委也去了你看一下那當地的場況名利的部分也比照關戶鄉來做未租金希望說他那個300億裡面有包括在名利村有再包括在裡面可以嗎就是比照"},{"start":187.827,"end":209.118,"text":"大概我們看到就是大概受災會有31戶包含沒有門牌跟沒有門牌的這個有實際居住跟受災事實就可以可是他們就是說有一個訴求說你不能因為他沒有門牌就不補償或者是說做一些理賠不是理賠就是沒有門牌但有實際居住叫村長簽名就可以"},{"start":209.318,"end":232.743,"text":"最主要是他們現在的需求是這樣那麼有發現說村長跟鄉長在事發的之前大概有跟我們當地的就是我們救災的比如說是工程第九河川分署或者是水保或者是說我們林保署有反映說我們當地的那個潰堤的可能性不過在"},{"start":233.283,"end":240.447,"text":"事情發生之前他們頂多只用了一些沙包那造成這次11月10號這麼嚴重的一個災害那我說這個責任歸屬要歸給誰啊"},{"start":243.12,"end":263.302,"text":"我跟委員說明了馬灘溪的北側就是鳳林跟萬榮是比較高的地方然後那邊的堤防當年省政府做的就是高規格的堤防比較好南邊關戶的比較差但是因為那個地方地勢本來就比較高所以那一段是沒有做堤防而不是破口"},{"start":263.923,"end":292.622,"text":"所以主要是因為它是有已經有當地的鄉長跟村長有跟我們防災的這些我們長官去的有反應不過它畢竟沒有做補強的措施所以它有緊急的去做必要的設施但是因為整個河川已經很高了所以水下來會溢過去那剛好那個地方是沒有做堤防的地方所以就溢到那個名利村的一些道路上面然後進入社區"},{"start":294.023,"end":316.03,"text":"那我看到這次的報告書裡面沒有針對我們這300億沒有針對我們原基法的一些機制來做一些構想比如說你應該要保障我們原基法的部落諮商同意這個部分這個法律的層面我覺得沒有顧及到所以以後在要重建的時候你針對比如說水"},{"start":318.43,"end":331.516,"text":"水利設施啊農業這些淹涉戶的整治啊土地的取得啊這個部分法律的一個準備面我覺得園民會應該要強力的來把我們園區法來顧及到可以嗎可以 報告委員可以"},{"start":337.318,"end":363.719,"text":"可以好 最后的就是说关于名利这个部分我们有一些请求就是希望能够一些跨部会治理平台的运作有些KPI就是说我们社区地方的一个部落市警能够百分之百纳入决策流程48小时内能够完成补证跨部会的风险资讯不得互相矛盾然后中央的误判必须提出检讨报告"},{"start":364.42,"end":382.885,"text":"部落的知識必須納入的工程設計的一個比例然後部落風險的地圖完成可以嗎可以因為我們的重建協調匯報本來就包含各部會跨部會有包含好不能再讓名利社這件事情再次上演好不好好謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"17048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17048","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db0f0f97671e11b2e19fa8a86ff2d6ccbd914d0d15f34b2c024829e8f30c3dac735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份有限公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就「中油三接案第二期遭檢舉浮報工程款項爭議」進行報告，並備質詢。\n【11月19日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-19T08:35:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-19T11:55:00+08:00","duration":11962,"影片長度":"03:19:22","委員發言時間":"08:35:38 - 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謝謝我們現在開會請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員10人以組法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1522.748,"end":1543.303,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議事錄時間114年11月10日星期一9時6分至12時35分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林丹樺等14人列席委員黃國昌等4人列席人員經濟部部長龔明新國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢等"},{"start":1543.823,"end":1561.433,"text":"主席 陳超紀委員 廷飛報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 決定 確定討論事項 審查依行政院行情審議 企業併購法 增訂第五章之一章名及第四條之二 第五十二條之一第五十四條調研修正常案"},{"start":1562.814,"end":1580.697,"text":"討論事項 合併詢答經濟部部長龔明勳報告後委員林大化等16人提出質詢經由經濟部部長龔明勳國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢等即時答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員蔡易瑜及陳昭明所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報"},{"start":1581.978,"end":1610.62,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會委員另有要求期限者從其鎖定2 本院委員 網美會等20人 委員審發會等17人 委員賴會員等20人 委員賴銳榮等18人 分別擬據企業併購法 部分條文修正草案等事案決議1 增訂第44條之2條文造型證明提案通過2 增訂第5章之1章名造型證明提案通過3 增訂第52條之1條文所有提案均保留 送院會處理"},{"start":1611.844,"end":1630.127,"text":"第54條條文照行政院提案通過 五通過附帶決議事項六 並按審查文件 領據審查報告提報院會討論 需交由黨團協商並推請陳昭吉委員停飛於院會討論時做補充說明主席宣告 審查通過這條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理 散會 宣讀完畢好我們現在繼續進行報告事項 請宣讀"},{"start":1638.953,"end":1663.553,"text":"報告事項 邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份眼線公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就中油三接案第二期遭檢舉浮爆工程款工程款項爭議進行報告並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 那麼我們首先來介紹在場的委員以及列席的機關首長"},{"start":1666.38,"end":1693.659,"text":"那我們經濟部部長 工部長 謝謝能源署署長 理署長 謝謝產業園區管理局 楊局長接下來台灣中油股份有限公司 方董事長 謝謝接下來台灣電力股份有限公司 蔡副總經理 謝謝台灣自來水公司 蕭副總經理 謝謝台灣糖業股份有限公司 蕭"},{"start":1695.6,"end":1715.878,"text":"蕭副總經理 謝謝接下來行政院公共工程委員會陳副主任委員 謝謝那麼企劃處謝代理處長以及技術處的張檢任記政 謝謝好 現在我們本日議程"},{"start":1717.375,"end":1731.079,"text":"所排定的是中游三接案第二期遭檢舉福報工程款項爭議進行報告並備質詢案那麼我們首先請工部長請做報告那我們也請中游董事長請做報告先準備謝謝謝謝主席貴委員女士先生那成門貴委員會邀請就"},{"start":1747.199,"end":1776.255,"text":"中油三接案第二期遭检举福报工程款项的争议进行报告那敬请各位委员不吝示教那在110年的5月3号行政院宣布三接外推方案将原来关塘工业港的码头向外推出455公尺以回应凿礁公投避免破坏水下的礁体那兼顾供电稳定以及生态的环保"},{"start":1777.472,"end":1806.235,"text":"那110年的12月18號三接遷移大潭角昭的公投並沒有通過那終究就依據相關的要點啟動了三接計畫的修正程序在110年12月21號函報外推方案的修正計畫那包括外推方案追加147.79億元以及非外推因素包括了營建物價的上漲"},{"start":1807.205,"end":1836.708,"text":"新增制程管线操作需求以及间接工程费用等等追加的157.7亿元总统资额由660.12亿调整为965.62亿元总共追加了305.55亿元在110年的12月30号合转行政院行政院在111年3月21号含附同意办理"},{"start":1838.241,"end":1855.632,"text":"三接总投资额奉行政院核定以后,中优集就按三接所有八项工程标案,按照实际需求重新盘点调整计划的分年期程和预算。"},{"start":1857.35,"end":1884.101,"text":"纳入了112年预算书送到立法院审议其中所列的111年分年的预算是120.3亿跟立法院已经审议通过的总有110年度的预算书还有当时正在审议的111年预算书所名列的111年预算书基本上是一样的"},{"start":1885.021,"end":1911.517,"text":"原以三接所有的工程111年所需要的經費呢既可以在120.3億裡面來做支應那中游在111年的7月決標了關塘接收站外推方案之外擴防波堤新建的工程的標案以下簡稱本案那中游三接計劃總預算還有分年的計算均"},{"start":1912.33,"end":1920.62,"text":"充分揭露於預算書並且循預算的程序送立法院審議通過並沒有規避立法院的審查"},{"start":1922.185,"end":1946.645,"text":"那本部也就是经济部所属的事业新办重大的工程建设那为了确保工程的专业性效率跟品质那么可以依政府采购法的相关规定委托厂商提供技术服务包括了跟技术有关的可行性研究规划设计建造还有专案管理等等那本案"},{"start":1947.472,"end":1968.195,"text":"中游系根据上街的这些政府采购法的相关的程序跟规定选定了国内知名而且具有海事工程专业技术丰富经验的台湾世纪工程顾问公司办理相关的设计预算以及招标的文件编列"},{"start":1969.156,"end":1992.576,"text":"那麼按照政府採購法的相關規定本部所屬的事業辦理相關的工程採購在採購公告前都應該辦理公開的閱覽程序公開化跟透明化藉由公開徵求廠商或民眾的意見以提升公共工程的規劃的品質"},{"start":1994.178,"end":2021.859,"text":"那麼也可以反映公眾的意見以後完成招標的文件的編訂那於公告前呢依照政府採購法所成立的這個採購的評選委員會審定招標文件中的評選項目還有評選標準還有評定方法之後才能夠辦理正式的公告那中油本次的這個採購的程序都按照上街的這個政府採購法的相關的這個規定來辦理"},{"start":2023.76,"end":2051.143,"text":"那过程当中并没有任何的厂商像中油或者是行政院公共工程委员会提出异议来申诉那这个本案在113年之后经济部就有接获了这个检举那经过了中油公司的相关的政风调查并没有发现什么样的不法情势那这一次媒体所称有录音档的新的事证那本部会再启动行政调查"},{"start":2051.704,"end":2068.593,"text":"也會全力的配合檢調進行查證 以上報告敬請自教好謝謝工部長的報告 謝謝那我們現在好那我們現在繼續請中油公司方董事長做報告"},{"start":2079.975,"end":2105.537,"text":"主席各位委員大家早那麼今天承蒙郭委員會的邀請就中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程館向著爭議來進行專案報告那麼進行各位委員不吝賜教那麼首先在福報工程館爭議的部分這個計畫中油公司是配合台電大潭電廠的新增機組用氣的一個需要"},{"start":2106.428,"end":2111.417,"text":"而辦理的這個所謂的第三座液化天然氣接觸站的投資計畫那麼這個計畫呢 向下呢"},{"start":2113.749,"end":2136.006,"text":"是主体工程标案总共有五项投资金额是660亿元那么这个行政院是在110年宣布了外推方案之后关塘工业港向外海移了455公尺所以需要新增三项的主体工程标案"},{"start":2136.827,"end":2147.343,"text":"包括了就是今天所提到的外扩防波堤新建工程以及站橋延伸段工程還有製程設備及管線工程那麼投資總額調整為965億"},{"start":2151.158,"end":2177.993,"text":"那么这个计划在111年3月21号奉行合定那么所合定增加的305亿元是分配到113年到118年的分年预算去调整并且这整个投资计划在112年度的预算书有送到立法院来审议所以相关的程序都是依照规定来办理"},{"start":2179.056,"end":2196.413,"text":"那么至于媒体所报道所谓第三接收站的二期啊所指的就是外扩防波堤新建工程那么以下呢就这项工程我就称为本案那么这个三接呢呃这个计划呢原来规划的防波堤工程呢"},{"start":2196.954,"end":2224.683,"text":"是由建港及微堤造地的一個標案來執行所以在原環評核准的範圍內沒有調整的部分持續在這個案子裡面持續施作但是因為受外推方案影響而必須重新調整所設計的防波堤需要等待外推方案的環差通過以後才能施作也就是這個案子本案來執行"},{"start":2225.953,"end":2246.634,"text":"那么原来的建港围堤造地工程呢它的长度呢是3350亿公尺施作的水深呢是在15公尺以内沉箱基础抛石料呢大概是60万方那么这个案子的工程项目呢它防坡堤的长度呢是比较长是4116公尺"},{"start":2249.181,"end":2260.716,"text":"那麼當然還有其他的設施那麼施作的水深是在-20公尺到-29公尺之間沉箱的飼料拋放數量是160萬方那麼人機的料的運補是比較困難"},{"start":2266.724,"end":2292.021,"text":"那麼施工的水域也比較深施工難度比較高那麼這兩個案子它的施工內容跟工程量體還有施工難度等等是不同的所以不能夠把這兩項的工程成本去做比部援引那麼接下來說明預算編列的過程那麼這個案子是委託台灣世西來辦理設計"},{"start":2294.653,"end":2322.228,"text":"预算编列以及招标文件的制作那么依据台湾世锡的说明呢工程细部设计完成以后呢台湾世锡是以本案所使用的大宗物料项目预估数量与施作的场域呢经过它内部的核算加总以后呢提出了本案的预算是238.4亿那么这个预算呢就交由中油公司呢在111年的1月12号呢"},{"start":2324.602,"end":2350.381,"text":"来办理公开阅览的一个程序那么经过公开阅览期间呢厂商所提的一些市移单那么台湾世锡呢也向国内的三家厂商来去询价这个询价里面有三家厂商呢包括了东坯公司的256.5亿洪华公司的239.6亿黄昌范雅团队提供的是269亿"},{"start":2352.796,"end":2367.175,"text":"那麼經過綜合評斷以後台灣司機提供給中油公司的預算金額是253億那麼中油公司就審核台灣司機所編列的各項目的必要性以及估算費用的一個說明"},{"start":2368.515,"end":2392.323,"text":"并且就这个预算里面比较大宗的物资像提薪石、块石、结头块等大宗物料来进行比和减兑那我们认为呢台湾司机所提报的预算上述合理那么近日被媒体报导呢中原公司也立即的调阅相关的请购跟采购的文件经再三的确认呢"},{"start":2392.796,"end":2410.379,"text":"本案工程预算编列的过程中并没有媒体报道百亿暴增至253亿元变动四次的一个情形那么接下来在请采购的程序本案是采公开招标是用最有类标的方式来办理"},{"start":2411.178,"end":2428.095,"text":"在111年4月29號第一次公告公告的預算就是253億那麼第一次開標是沒有滿三家而留標接下來在6月29號辦理了第二次的公告預算也是沒有改變"},{"start":2429.451,"end":2454.92,"text":"那么在7月8号第二次开标也既有两家来投标分别是东批公司的投标价是252.7亿黄昌范雅团队的投标价是253.05亿那么后续的评选委员会评定黄昌范雅团队是最优胜的厂商而于在7月29号决标最后做个结语"},{"start":2455.646,"end":2475.577,"text":"那這本案是委託國內知名的海事專業廠商台灣世西來辦理那麼向中油公司提出的建議預算238.4億後來經過公開閱覽以及向國內廠商的一個詢價經過中整評估以後提出來的招標預算是253億元那麼經過中油公司比對檢核這個預算是合理的"},{"start":2480.953,"end":2509.56,"text":"那麼本案中油公司呢是依照政府採購法來辦理後續的採購程序預算編列的過程中是沒有變動的一個情形那麼至於媒體報導如影檔中涉及中油公司必失情節這個事情呢那麼中油公司會重啟政風的調查作為並將全力配合司法機關來釐清案情對於呢有惡意損害中油公司聲譽的一個行為呢我們會採取適當的法律途徑"},{"start":2510.953,"end":2513.996,"text":"那麼以上報告進行各位委員指正 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2522.95,"end":2551.322,"text":"好 接下來我們確認議事錄請問各位委員剛剛議事組人員所唸的議事錄有沒有意見沒有 我們議事錄確認那有關本次會議各部會所提供的書面報告我們也請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答委員詢答前我們依例做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間6分鐘必要時間2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘"},{"start":2552.182,"end":2559.335,"text":"那上午10點半截止登記發言首先要請登記第一位的林黛嬅委員請發言有請部長我們請工部長"},{"start":2571.14,"end":2600,"text":"林委員長本席認為現在國氣國運這個議題經濟部跟中油目前的進度本席表達不滿沒有國氣國運就沒有能源國安台灣天然氣供應鏈的戰略缺口今天來就叫我們經濟部下面 他不能動主席 這個不能動給我 好 我們下去"},{"start":2602.813,"end":2632.573,"text":"没有国际国运就没有人员国安今天不谈商业投资而是谈国家安全台湾的天然气预计在五年后2030年能源转型配比高达50%一旦任何一座的接收站延误任何一条运输线的中断我国的电力民生乃至国防将在一天之内就陷入风险目前行政院跟经济部口中推动已久的国际国运没有人没有船你训练了546位的船员"},{"start":2633.013,"end":2661.554,"text":"真正登船实习的不到30人留任的也只有18人更关键的是台湾仍然没有任何一艘国籍LNG运输船其实我直接讲重点就是中游你根本还没有开出FOB的订单当然就不可能有业者或者是国家或者是我们的这个扬名海运去投入我们国籍船的LNG的运输船"},{"start":2662.134,"end":2679.199,"text":"好那在福建靠城均南海緊張局勢升溫的當下沒有國籍船沒有船員沒有長約也意味著我國人員安全每天都暴露了這個多暴露了一天請部長你具體說明這三件事情第一個國氣國運的落實時程"},{"start":2681.52,"end":2709.061,"text":"第二个第一艘国际LNG船的建造进度第三交通部与中油是否已研议将LNG运输纳入国安航运的体系请回答基本上经济部的态度是支持委员的提案那上礼拜我们国民司司长也找了这个交通部有做一些讨论详细状况我是不是请司长跟委员做一个说明"},{"start":2710.765,"end":2735.235,"text":"就是陳鵬那個委員一直在關切這個事情上禮拜我有請交通部來討論一下那現在目前大概交通部有一個之前就是有訂一個方案出來那這方案目前來看要建造LNG國籍的LNG大概現在船公司因為沒有這個訂單也沒有太大的意願所以剛開始規劃的時候如果中油將來有了FOB的這個訂單以後會規劃先用全一輪來大概"},{"start":2736.836,"end":2763.477,"text":"运大概5到10年的时间然后在这段期间如果订单多了那才会有去推动国际LNG的建造那你对船员呢船员就是因为现在看起来我们只有就是中游自己可以去比较能够掌控的大概就是有4艘的4艘的那是本来就有的对对对那我们会那个上个礼拜也跟交通部在讲说我们会在协调中游看是不是能够把实习的名额好加大"},{"start":2763.897,"end":2791.752,"text":"因为现在大概航港局的地方已经有将近540几位的船员已经是受过训了但是没有实习的机会留任者才18个跟实习的不到30个可是因为我们现在自己能够大概只有好 那钟友请你回答你的这个第一艘国际LNG船的建造进度其实关系到你的FOB的第一张长约在哪里目前我们新购的合约都会跟供应商提出我们要买FOB的要求"},{"start":2793.216,"end":2796.527,"text":"當然會不會達成FOB雙方的合約協議的話這需要雙方來去做協商"},{"start":2800.666,"end":2829.551,"text":"所以還是沒有進度目前沒有所以這個第一艘國際船就是遙遙無期部長您聽到了所以現在這個地緣政治的這麼樣的一個緊張情況之下而且之前也發生了其實就是因為這個台海緊張的關係我自己的LNG船我們訂的這個LNG船是根本它就不進來那這個國防部也預警我們現在其實國防的人員儲量其實"},{"start":2830.211,"end":2848.321,"text":"是應該到14天然後呢現在我們的天然氣也只能11天那你以經濟部的立場你也表達你會提升到14天我不曉得這樣的一個訊息你在一個國籍船沒有成行那怎麼會配合你的政府有11天呢常常的這個台海這個"},{"start":2849.562,"end":2875.995,"text":"中國在那邊的軍艦在那邊繞來繞去你的人員的鍛煉的可能性是相當相當高的而且你的天然氣的佔比是50%還會再增加因為已經不用核能了你的這個再生能源的配比也不到20%所以火力發電更是不可能完全就靠天然氣100%的進口所以我都不曉得你有沒有這種國安思維好 再進來"},{"start":2877.156,"end":2893.271,"text":"好從三接的營運到七接的中樞國安工程是不容切割的那當然近期三接二期的工程你們的報告也很清楚了那當然確實你們也說明沒有這個暴增百億但也證實了工程預算高達253億元"},{"start":2895.593,"end":2915.966,"text":"這也確實是重大的國安工程所以本席也呼籲你們的主張但是我也希望這樣的爭議不應該由媒體來審判那中油跟相關單位趕快的協同調查做到勿枉勿重那人員工程關係到國家安全連結是基礎 不容模糊而在世界動工延後"},{"start":2916.926,"end":2937.294,"text":"北部進氣受限的情況之下七接的重要性就已非地區的議題而是全國戰略的核心所以七接如果若能如期如此的完工每小時可供給1600噸等於全台穩定電力的最後防線這七接就是在高雄啦"},{"start":2938.255,"end":2963.036,"text":"所以我很在意這個樣的一個進度它不是 它是一個護國產業它是雖然第二座的接氣站是在高雄永安之外就是在大林埔這邊那這個中油這邊我也很肯定董事長這邊你也很重視那也確實有相關的建制起身我希望是真的是如期如止它穩定的是全台的電力的最後防線了"},{"start":2963.817,"end":2976.156,"text":"所以也希望經濟部我能夠將希望你們將期間納入人員國安建設我提出來的叫做人員國安建設專案每一項進度每一次檢測都應該以國安的規格來這個"},{"start":2980.281,"end":3007.815,"text":"來看待那另外呢這個冷能到再利用從除氣到除冷的國家戰略冷能是液化天然氣接收過程中產生的副產品弱子輸氣不回收等於把人員直接排進了大海在國際上日本的大阪東京橫濱等都已經講LNG冷能應用於食品加工冷電物流跟材料循環產業高雄七街就具備這樣的相同條件"},{"start":3008.775,"end":3027.797,"text":"所以本席建議在七街周邊要規劃人人產業帶結合南興與紅毛港腹地建構人人物流新材料循環經濟與海洋教育展示園區部長這邊的新材料循環園區講了很久了其實他就是"},{"start":3029.72,"end":3054.182,"text":"連紙上作業都沒有就是一個概念而已所以這邊我提點您您接任部長之後我也希望您能夠投入在七街周邊的規劃的人能產業帶那結合南興這個腹地不管南興一起雖然填海遭陸完成現在是荒蕪在那邊的雖然說不是你的議題也不是是港務公司的也是說市政府那也是"},{"start":3054.742,"end":3073.718,"text":"好但是呢這個在產業面當中我覺得您就要有既然冷鏈冷能產業貸這個東西是經濟部在產業當中應該去處理的所以在這個相關的腹地上我也希望你能夠做一些跟產業面的結合那但這不是光光建設而是冷能的負產轉化為產業韌帶是從儲計到儲能的國家戰略"},{"start":3080.396,"end":3108.106,"text":"升級下一頁不要切割問題要縫合戰略經濟部跟中友不要把國氣國運接收站的建設忍忍回收廉政調查分成各自的專案請經濟部經濟安全的思維將目前分散的專案整合為國家安全行動方案這是本席所提出來的經濟安全跟國家安全的行動方案"},{"start":3108.826,"end":3130.177,"text":"那美國的川普跟日本高市長苗都已經在現在就在落實他的經濟安全經濟安全的概念不管美國他在講到他的人員他一定講到他的供應穩定日本他在危機管理他也在講到什麼危機管理投資"},{"start":3131.658,"end":3147.935,"text":"所以這個經濟安全是要有國家安全的思維天然氣的的接收不只是關心民生更是國家安全的課題所以我也希望部長今天面對國際情勢的緊張大家這個區域經濟當中大家的一個的緊張性所以你的經濟當中的經濟韌性一個經濟安全的這樣的一個"},{"start":3155.882,"end":3175.455,"text":"国家安全的课题希望你在各个产业当中真的知道导入这会是新的一个思维要去注意的在地缘政治高压下每一天的延迟都是人员安全多曝露了一天请行政院跟经济部能够将这些议题统合成国家人员安全行动方案"},{"start":3176.415,"end":3199.63,"text":"國家人員安全行動方案這三個整合在一塊第一個以國安架構推動國際國運與國籍船的計畫第二個以產業政策延伸人人利用與港灣再生第三以廉政機制確保三階四階七階的預算透明人員的安全不是開會的目的而是國家要命的問題"},{"start":3201.171,"end":3224.937,"text":"部長您針對國家人員安全行動方案本席把它整合為這三個議題那您的看法如何謝委員我覺得是非常好的建議我們也會往這個方向來進行人員安全本來就是國家安全的最重要的一環謝委員的提醒就是說現在接收站我們已經把它列為國家關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":3226.813,"end":3242.973,"text":"但是这个天然气的运输如果更强化它的韧性的话那我们尽量来处理FOB的问题那有关于冷能本来就是它是一个循环在利用重要的资源那我们会善加利用那廉政的机制是一定会做的以上"},{"start":3243.373,"end":3258.891,"text":"那部長您這邊的才是那這個中游這邊你就要加把勁你的FOB的如果第一的訂單沒有出來就不可能有國籍船那當然就是沒有國籍船你的國籍的船員更是本席更加期待的國籍的船長"},{"start":3260.272,"end":3279.695,"text":"好 這個船長的自己國際的船長才會配合我們的人員政策啊好 那最後以戰略的決心補上台灣人員的缺口人員國安不是工程也不是商業行為它是一條從海上延伸到產業的生命線只要台灣少一天的國際船少一套人人系統"},{"start":3280.356,"end":3290.288,"text":"少一份廉政信任我們的人員安全就多一分風險所以在這邊我呼籲行政院也感謝經濟部部長您現在至少從你這邊已經這個重視到這個在國內當中的所謂的經濟安全"},{"start":3296.796,"end":3321.238,"text":"這件事情在今天的質詢當中你確認了這樣的思維也就是說你在各產業推動的當中你的經濟韌性 經濟安全今天在這個質詢當中也確定了這樣的一個方向所以在這邊也希望大家以戰略決心補上台灣人員的圈口高雄的未來不在海岸的盡頭而在人員安全的起點好 謝謝謝謝主席 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":3324.315,"end":3341.478,"text":"接下来我们请邱映文委员请做询答谢谢主席我请一下部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":3348.383,"end":3363.329,"text":"部長早部長我想在進入今天的主題之前有一個是攸關民生的部分想要就教於經濟部非洲豬瘟造成台灣的巨大的影響"},{"start":3364.329,"end":3383.005,"text":"那我們經濟部現在有一個豬肉攤商防疫損失的補助每一攤會補助三萬塊但是現在有一個問題來了就是在我想這個應該不只高雄市啦全台灣有很多偏鄉的地區其實有一些豬肉的攤商他不是在市場內擺攤"},{"start":3384.326,"end":3403.445,"text":"他是在自己家裡騎樓或者是街邊以個體戶的方式去販售豬肉他不是設攤在傳統的市場之內喔那部長我要請教像這樣的狀態他能不能被補助來這是我到這是在美濃的街上我隨便就可以拍了好幾攤的豬肉商"},{"start":3405.707,"end":3432.845,"text":"他們就是在自家的門口或者是在騎樓或者是在街邊那我去詢問過高雄市政府高雄市政府一開始他有點害怕因為經濟部頒訂的標準裡頭並沒有給他們一個完整的規範所以他認為高雄市政府很怕他如果現在把它造冊了之後審計單位是不認帳的所以我想要請教一下經濟部如果依照這樣子的一個標準"},{"start":3434.146,"end":3462.552,"text":"經濟部認不認那地方能不能現在開始去放寬或者是怎麼樣去認列這一些不在傳統市場裡頭的又或者是有一些是在批發市場裡面的豬肉零售商它其實也不在原來的規定的範圍之內這些能不能認列那地方政府應該怎麼做可不可以請經濟部回答一下報告委員因為這一次的非洲豬瘟的案件因為它是全面進行全台灣的部分"},{"start":3463.43,"end":3488.922,"text":"所以针对这个生鲜猪肉我们禁止他运送宰杀跟贩卖那实际上就是造成从业人员他的一些损失跟损伤所以重点在于这些人员的认定他有没有受到损伤损失不在于说是不是在市场里面所以我们这一次就从宽认定只要你有真的有贩卖的营业事实那你有受到损失那我们就补助你"},{"start":3489.002,"end":3507.554,"text":"那他提供什麼一些資料真的有販賣的事實比如說像這些照片佐證啊還是說他要有一些買跟批發買賣豬肉的這些收據不是這個就是我們尊重地方政府他來認定因為他比較清楚因為他在地嘛他很清楚這個豬肉攤他到底過去有沒有在營業嘛"},{"start":3508.768,"end":3523.149,"text":"只要他認定了我們就認定就沒有問題如果是這樣的話我想可能也要請經濟部通函或者是讓各縣市政府很清楚的知道我們的認定標準不會只有在傳統市場之內"},{"start":3525.191,"end":3541.178,"text":"比如說像這一些偏鄉的街邊的在自己自家騎樓的這一些豬肉攤商受到影響的我們一律都是可以認列可以造冊讓地方政府趕快下去做這一些這一方面的協助可以嗎這個部分是不是能夠請經濟部今天"},{"start":3542.833,"end":3570.955,"text":"之前我們已經有發新聞稿那我們可以再發沒有問題你的新聞稿可能寫得不清不楚所以我看不只高雄市政府應該還有其他的地方他們其實對於這個列管造冊其實是有一些疑慮到底應該怎麼做這個我想要請部長我們跟高雄市政府有溝通了他們也理解了所以就儘快來做這個可能要請基金部儘快部長那我要接下來要請教這個比較"},{"start":3572.896,"end":3590.645,"text":"重大的時事議題這個這兩天大概討論非常多包括這個就是有關於台積電的前資深副總是不是帶走了先進製程這些資料那我看昨天媒體有請教經濟部您的回答是說這個應該由台積電來"},{"start":3593.775,"end":3619.071,"text":"回應嘛部長我要請教就這件事情上面其實他牽扯到的是整個他有可能會涉及到國安法這是國家先進製程這個是非常核心的這些製程站在國家的立場上面站在經濟部的立場上面部長您對這件事情的看法是什麼你對這件事情的初步了解是什麼能不能在這裡跟大家說明一下跟本席說明一下"},{"start":3619.733,"end":3634.763,"text":"是 报告委员这个有三个层面来探讨第一个就是您刚才提到的国家安全层次的问题第二个层次就是整体的产业利益的问题第三个才是个别企业它的利益"},{"start":3635.714,"end":3663.077,"text":"那就国安城市来讲的话我们要确定就是说这件事情是不是有危害到国家的利益跟安全那现在您看到了这个高检署已经开始在调查那我想我们经济部会配合他调查因为什么样的这个核心技术这个是我们定的那我们会充分的跟高检署来做说明那当然什么样的资料被带走这个要由台积电他来认定"},{"start":3663.749,"end":3681.275,"text":"那我們來認定說這個被帶走的這些相關技術是不是符合國家關鍵的技術那這個我們可以充分的負責說明所以台積電的部分跟經濟部這邊做接觸了嗎就到底他被帶走的資料或者是說認定上哪一些關鍵基礎的這個是屬於核心資料的這個部分"},{"start":3687.413,"end":3705.069,"text":"你們有進一步的做溝通進一步做討論了嗎就這件事情上面我們有請同仁去了解啦但是就是說到底被帶走什麼樣的資訊我想這個是屬於台積電他的營業秘密啦這個我們不好替他說明如果他說明了也要由他來做說明"},{"start":3705.714,"end":3728.676,"text":"那我们就讲说企业端的它的相关的是不是符合行业秘密我们也会跟这些公司来做合作他如果需要我们协助提出这个营业秘密的诉讼的话那我们也协助他那至于第三个层次就是整体产业利益的部分那我们会持续的关注这个议题会不会影响到我们整个"},{"start":3729.476,"end":3751.929,"text":"半導體的供應鏈的影響或衝擊或者是對於這些客戶會不會有所影響我們會持續的關注我想這件事情應該也要把它列為經濟部現在現階段一個很重要的關心的議題這個關乎到國內的所有的這些半導體產業的發展這個不只是台積電的有可能面臨到它的"},{"start":3752.589,"end":3773.329,"text":"核心基础的这些资讯被窃这个关乎到整个半导体的产业链的基础发展对于国家整体的经济发展是非常重要的所以我要请经济部要密切的而且要百分之百能够掌握这一些进度这个能够做得到吗我们会持续地关注这个议题好"},{"start":3774.19,"end":3788.5,"text":"那接下來我要請教這個主席今天排定的這個議題三接的這個到底這個預算是不是真的如媒體的爆料要求說你們加價啦 增加一點啦到底這個預算"},{"start":3791.477,"end":3808.676,"text":"從94 暴增到最後的253大家看到這個帳面數字都會覺得中油真的這麼有錢這工程真的可以這樣亂編但是我剛剛看中油的這些報告裡頭其實並沒有很清楚的寫出比如說你的預算要從94億增加到253億"},{"start":3810.137,"end":3821.798,"text":"你勢必要經過很多內部公司的討論你的變更計畫包括變更的預算規劃這個應該是公司內部都要經過很多次的討論跟很多次的這一些"},{"start":3823.37,"end":3840.181,"text":"會議嘛 對不對那這一些會議有沒有可能在不涉及你們內部的機密的狀態之下能夠讓外界甚或是讓立法院很清楚的知道在你們整體的決策過程裡頭到底是怎麼樣處理這個事情"},{"start":3841.263,"end":3865.146,"text":"我還沒有看到中郵很完整的去說明這一段那如果持續的被有心人士這樣操作的話那檢調的調查司法的調查還沒有完整以前其實中郵就已經被判了未審先判就被已經判定有罪了中郵能不能去就這一點去做更完整的說明"},{"start":3865.987,"end":3884.396,"text":"有沒有可能 董事長報告員就是在我的書面報告裡面已經有提到了我們這個案子是委託台灣世西去做預算編列設計以及預算編列所以對公司而言我們收到的第一板就是238.4億"},{"start":3886.926,"end":3893.63,"text":"沒有出現過94億、120億、150億這些數字從來沒有也就是從238.4億之後依照採購法來去辦理相關的程序最後預算的決定是253億那你們這個有針對這樣的報導去提出反駁嗎"},{"start":3908.271,"end":3927.246,"text":"沒有 只有在立法院報告的時候有提到這一部分所以包括媒體這樣的報導從94億到122億到253億您現在提出來說世西提出的第一版的預算編列世西顧問公司在規劃的時候是你說多少 293億啊238億到最後定案的是253億那這個過程裡面"},{"start":3937.114,"end":3947.434,"text":"我認為應該要再對外界做更清楚的說明是 事實上我們也已經對外做了一個說明新聞稿也做這樣一個同樣的這樣一個說明"},{"start":3950.087,"end":3977.622,"text":"這個事情現在應該檢調也開始介入調查嘛所以有一些相關的資料你們應該要提供給檢調的或者是說中油在內部對於整個這個預算的編定整個工程的計畫其實中油應該如果有機會的話其實還是要對外示意啦否則你讓有心人一直不斷的醜話一直不斷的抹黑"},{"start":3978.752,"end":4001.683,"text":"這是我剛剛所講的那到底有沒有這樣的公安疑雲有沒有這樣的所謂的錄音疑雲有沒有這樣的預算膨脹我覺得這個對於國人來講其實是非常關心的三接的工程這個預算到底是怎麼編列世西當時的估算是什麼世西也可以出來講清楚啊"},{"start":4002.811,"end":4023.305,"text":"對不對你要讓大家知道你這個工程是要怎麼做為什麼會變成這麼多錢即使世新原來規劃是238億到你後來最終決定的是253億這個中間還是有個十幾億的落差嘛那這個十幾億的落差是怎麼來的我覺得你們還是要對外能夠說明清楚好不好好 謝謝來 謝謝"},{"start":4030.014,"end":4054.294,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢談召委 主席有請部長還有中油公司董事長好 我們請兩位 謝謝行政院公共工程委員會副主委"},{"start":4057.455,"end":4069.586,"text":"好 大家好好 辛苦了我們看這個今天中油公司的報告這個五項主體工程標案這個投資金額660億元108年9月16號奉行政院核定"},{"start":4078.462,"end":4106.949,"text":"接著行政院在110年宣布也就是110年5月3號宣布這個三接外推的方案請問一下這個當初是經濟部提報的嗎行政院不可能直接宣布啊是行政院是經濟部提報還是哪個單位提報給行政院然後宣布"},{"start":4109.729,"end":4138.001,"text":"委員好 是不是由我來說明好 你說就是我想委員提問的就是三推外推這個方案經由什麼樣一個程序把它實體化大概應該是這個問題當然這個外推方案的話是必須到中原公司跟顧問公司以及跟部院這邊的話要做一個充分的一個溝通討論所以是你們提報的嗎是 這個也要寫清楚不然的話全部責任都在行政院"},{"start":4139.008,"end":4162.368,"text":"好 這個整個新增三項的主體工程投資金額調整為965億元111年3月21日奉行政院核定當然你們是報上期核定核定增加305億元然後納入112年度預算書送立法院審議好 我們看這個接下來"},{"start":4163.905,"end":4192.106,"text":"你們特別強調這個委託國內知名的海事專業廠商台灣世襲工程顧問公司這個公司過去是中華顧問公司我所了解的然後常常會碰到他們的都是鐵路公路橋樑所以不要特別如果你Google我也Google海事"},{"start":4193.756,"end":4220.082,"text":"公司沒有他們所以這個部分不要把它捧得那麼高也請這個董事長請這個提供台灣世襲公司在這個案之前他們做過哪些海事的好不好我們給我參考說不定他真的是很有名至少我所知道的"},{"start":4221.775,"end":4246.63,"text":"常常會碰到他們的都是在鐵路、橋樑、公路各方面包括以前的中華公務公司的時候我有的是30年公務員也是常常碰到他們的好這是一個部分然後這個剛有提到了這個現在就請教公共工程委員會"},{"start":4249.796,"end":4277.877,"text":"當然要看他的標案他委託這個台灣世襲然後台灣世襲一體專業評估然後這個向國內的三家廠商詢價這是在公文工程的作業裡面是有這樣的程序是吧報告委員這個大概就是一般工程慣例大概都是這樣的一個程序在走"},{"start":4278.953,"end":4304.686,"text":"好這個就是一個當然我們也可以說因為就缺乏這方面專業啊就可能就這樣說了因為各位報因為那個專業團隊他設計出來有時候要看國內市場的這一些營造廠他們的經驗互相查因為就是就是新的嗎沒辦法就只有這幾家可以問啊也沒有別的好"},{"start":4308.219,"end":4324.105,"text":"這個我要談的就是說這個111年3月9號董事會中油公司董事會審議通過剛才有提到這個預算是112年度的預算董事長是不是"},{"start":4326.719,"end":4335.506,"text":"這個所需要增加的預算305億我們是把它編在103年到108年去分配113年到118年去分別納入進去預算編列是112年度增加的305億對啊112年度預算編列"},{"start":4346.554,"end":4369.66,"text":"对 把它在112年的预算书里面有去呈现你一直讲113的话你一直讲113又差了两年了112年度的预算都还没有审查然后就招标了就招标了111年7月29号结标所以这个113又差得更远了所以这个部分这个都是一个"},{"start":4372.199,"end":4396.365,"text":"表示中油的預算國營事業的預算那個設計到整體就是可以這個動用吸用就是111年那麼行政院通過這東西所需要增加的是三個工程案那麼以及要增加的預算我們都按照預算程序來去編列那麼在111年還沒通過"},{"start":4400.103,"end":4411.629,"text":"在111年跟112年我們核定的這個預算數呢針對這三項新增工程是不會去通知到這個預算不要再強辯了反正這個都是要檢討的啦"},{"start":4413.055,"end":4439.645,"text":"我也沒有說你一定有責任反正就是要檢討今天就是檢討112年度的預算按照立法院按照法律的規定是8月112年度的預算是在111年8月31號以前送到立法院行政院通常都是在8月中旬左右"},{"start":4440.936,"end":4467.999,"text":"完成審議然後送到立法院所以那時候還沒有啊111年7月29號結標就還沒有嘛所以這個都是要去檢討的部分好不好那就接下來這個部長留下來就好其他就回座這個部長就談另外一個議題這個馬太安溪淹涉浮所造成這麼重大的災害"},{"start":4469.677,"end":4492.969,"text":"結果很遺憾的在今年的11月10號望榮鄉明麗村跟鳳林鎮的長橋嶺又受到重大的災害這個就是一流點這個部長我其實我不知道你的想法我自己就很自責"},{"start":4494.551,"end":4520.419,"text":"因為在這個一個多月的時間部長我都碰過你好幾次 最起碼兩三次了光復鄉那邊的堤防我去看看了三次然後我也去這個下游的那個直沖的那個地方我也去了也到了建英橋前面的"},{"start":4522.829,"end":4550.8,"text":"這個鳳林三星也到了鳳林鎮這個高堤房那邊也去了我就想說大家都會有那個舒服啦我也認為我有舒服我沒有我本來也想去往望龍鄉那個就這個一流點的地方我想說那麼大的潰壩的時候9月22號那麼大的潰壩的時候都沒有怎麼樣這裡應該OK大概大家都這樣想"},{"start":4552.487,"end":4570.866,"text":"所以这个部分大家都要真的是要去要去非常非常的谨慎的前面的去检视好不好因为这里面时间的关系其实很重要的因为上面的源头"},{"start":4572.13,"end":4600.637,"text":"霸体还没有解决是所以你现在是最重要的最重要的就是水利署经济部因为河床的疏浚堤防的修筑修固加高加固对都非常非常的重要然后以现在的那个霸体吸水量如果在台风的时候或者是地震的时候是不是就可以阻挡就不要一天到晚"},{"start":4602.045,"end":4624.177,"text":"一天到晚要撤離啊 撤離啊鄉民也是很煩啊但是又為了安全啊所以你們現在是重中之重 好不好好 謝謝謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢答請那個鄭委員來一下謝謝"},{"start":4638.78,"end":4643.242,"text":"謝謝主席我想請工部長我們再請工部長張偉豪部長長我想知道你認識這個羅維仁嗎有見過面有見過面那你有跟他深談過嗎有交換過什麼意見嗎就是我以前當"},{"start":4667.214,"end":4674.077,"text":"那個台積電董事的時候當然有做過一些說明那你認為這個人的人品如何你客觀判斷當初覺得還不錯當初覺得還不錯那現在是不是覺得判斷錯誤了"},{"start":4686.271,"end":4707.276,"text":"就是說有點意料之外意料之外吧真的就是大家都難以想像說台積電的資深副總而且是掌管研發的資深副總在卸任之後馬上可以到對家去上班完全沒有禁業禁止然後也沒有旋轉門條款你覺得這個合理嗎因為"},{"start":4712.509,"end":4727.14,"text":"理論上競業晉職他要簽署啦事實上之前要簽署啦是那這個是說他不能到其他地方去任職而且他還是公園院的院士耶然後他在離職之前印了二十幾箱有關於這個二奈米的先進製程什麼A7 A10全部資料都印走了你覺得這是妥當的嗎"},{"start":4741.787,"end":4768.201,"text":"這個實際上到底運走了什麼可能要由台積電比較清楚說明是 但是本席今天在這裡要提醒部長台積電大家都說是我們的護國神山結果我們護國神山就從裡面大家都中空把它挖走所以希望部長一定要能夠關心這個案子希望未來不要再發生這個類似的情形如果假設別人說他也可以"},{"start":4769.782,"end":4785.162,"text":"別人也覺得我也可以呀 是不是所以高檢署已經啟動了是不是違反國安法的一些調查那我想我們經濟部也會全力來配合那這是屬於國安城市是 當然 至於第二個城市整體產業的影響我們也會"},{"start":4787.423,"end":4793.605,"text":"看看這個持續的關注他有沒有會造成利害所以這一點我也希望說部長喔不是只有關心這個個案而是要怎麼樣保護整個產業你要能夠提出一些可能規範讓這個產業是有規範的否則大家都覺得他可以我也可以哇那他這樣子出去薪水又更高搞不好那資料還賣錢對不對"},{"start":4814.011,"end":4825.401,"text":"我在這裡提醒部長接下來我想要請教部長包括還有中郵董事長現在三接的弊案國人相當關心我們請中郵董事長"},{"start":4827.898,"end":4855.832,"text":"那2021年為了這個行政院宣布說為了保護生態環境那三接必須要外推455公尺的時候那個時候行政院說這個工程需要增加150億那當時規劃的總經費是多少部長或董事長知道嗎是當時所講的工程經費增加150億那是就外推的部分"},{"start":4856.454,"end":4860.776,"text":"去做說明但是實際上最後是增加了305億305億我知道所以我就想知道說既然行政院說增加150億就能完成外推那實際總經費從660億變成965億整整多了305億那多出來這一倍的經費305億從150億到305億是多了一倍耶"},{"start":4886.385,"end":4912.533,"text":"那這些錢到底用在哪裡是 因為還有其他的因素譬如說物價的一個調整啊譬如說環境的因素啦或者是說一些間接工程假設工程這些等等的增加董事長我同意就是說但是你這些新增的工程到目前為止本席包括立法院今天的書面報告都沒有這些東西"},{"start":4913.873,"end":4927.302,"text":"應該是說假設照你講的原物料調漲然後什麼樣工程調漲這些應該都要有細項而且應該都是有市價可以就是讓大家公平來評斷的"},{"start":4929.161,"end":4952.239,"text":"那為什麼你不列出來呢你要讓大家覺得它是一個弊案呢如果你把這些事情一項一項細項都列出來提供給各位委員誰還可以說你這個是弊案但是你沒有啊本席已經問了非常多次就說可不可以提供一下這個細項讓我們理解一下到底增加在哪裡"},{"start":4953.499,"end":4960.695,"text":"中郵沒有提供任何資料甚至今天送到委員會的書面資料有寫說這305億用在哪裡嗎有嗎"},{"start":4966.934,"end":4985.36,"text":"沒有仔細交代就是沒有告訴大家說如果假設你的這個增加是經得起考驗的你一項一項列出來就是經得起考驗嘛那我也希望說中油真的不要覺得說可以規避立法院的監督那當初行政院也公開說只會增加150億"},{"start":4987.18,"end":5002.373,"text":"結果增加105億都沒有任何的說明那所以今天我想要請問不只是部長還有董事長就是除了檢調現在在偵辦之外呢中油內部的行政調查什麼時候可以公布"},{"start":5004.93,"end":5023.377,"text":"我們行政調查的部分是已經開始了那麼我們是期望能夠盡早完成盡早完成你有一個內部你自己的心理期程嗎我們目標是在12月中把它完成12月中可以完成所以12月中我們應該就會知道你們內部調查的結果是這樣嗎是 我們目標這樣子"},{"start":5024.577,"end":5048.627,"text":"好 努力那第二個是305億追加的這個經費項目細項什麼時候可以完整的公布呢是不是會後我再補充資料給委員好 麻煩你喔那接下來我想要請問的是大家都今天可能都會非常好奇的到底中油是什麼時候編列這個三接相關預算的"},{"start":5052.312,"end":5065.78,"text":"包委 您是問是整體的計畫嗎對啊 你什麼時候送到立法院來的最原始的計畫是104年編列的那您指的是說修正計畫這個部分是啊 是啊"},{"start":5066.805,"end":5073.569,"text":"我們是在112年的預算書裡面112年的預算書裡面才編的這筆錢112年才通過那你們是什麼時候決標的121年你覺得合理嗎部長部長我這題往你講這樣夠合理他們112年才送到立法院來可是他們121年就已經決標了你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":5095.32,"end":5119.147,"text":"正常嗎 還是中郵這樣做是正常報告委員 這個行政院部長來 部長你講你覺得這樣比較正常沒有你先講你先講我再讓他講因為這樣喔他111年行政院已經合訂了嘛所以一定會報所以行政院也是只要他合訂就可以做都不用報立法院你覺得這樣合理嗎所以他預算一定會編在112年嘛但是他已經絕標都自己招標了耶"},{"start":5125.773,"end":5139.098,"text":"因為他的預算的動資沒有超過當初這個所以你的意思就是說他不用送立法院他就可以自行決定他要怎麼花是嗎沒有 立法院一定要核定多少錢的程度內你知道週刊裡面怎麼寫週刊裡面寫說中郵在錄音檔裡面大言不慚的說中郵的錢最多什麼都不欠"},{"start":5150.743,"end":5152.184,"text":"就是這種態度花錢大手大腳而且還不用經立法院把立法院當作橡皮圖章部長你覺得這樣對嗎報告委員我可能要稍微說明一下那個錄音檔周刊講的這個錄音檔是講業者之間的對話"},{"start":5168.693,"end":5172.096,"text":"所以跟中油無關是嗎 是這樣子嗎我在講中油的財務狀況2022年虧損2144億2023年虧損169億2024年再虧355億負債比已經高達93%"},{"start":5189.952,"end":5191.613,"text":"2025年上半年再虧159億這當然有因應能源價格穩定民生的責任但是這種花錢的態度這種大手大腳花錢的態度才是中油虧損的主因"},{"start":5207.122,"end":5216.629,"text":"那我真的很不能理解說怎麼會一個負債累累的公司早就如果假設是民營企業應該每一塊錢都斤斤計較結果在法務部上個禮拜法務部調查局廉政署的報告裡面都寫得很清楚所有國營事業裡面中油貪賭的案件就是最多的"},{"start":5230.549,"end":5245.166,"text":"所以呢這個社會當然會質疑說是不是有亂花錢那這個才是三接必按大家會這麼重視的這麼嚴重的一個地方所以董事長我希望你內部也要整頓啊"},{"start":5246.207,"end":5272.665,"text":"你是不是內部要整頓一下 部長你也要監督他們呀否則怎麼會連連法務部連這個調查局 連政署都說中油是這個弊案最多 貪賭最多的那也希望說這個部長一定要努力監督他們中油能不能重新獲得社會的信任就看董事長願不願意趕快整頓而且呢內部的行政調查報告也要盡快的公布啊好不好"},{"start":5282.492,"end":5295.243,"text":"好 谢谢我们接下来请赖瑞荣委员请做询答好 谢谢新工部长我们再请经济部工部长"},{"start":5299.619,"end":5327.133,"text":"好 部長我先請教一下上次我有問過就是普發現金的一萬詐騙非常多現在已經在普發現金當中了那當時有講到要三天內跟整個這些平台業者不管是Meta或者是臉書溝通後來有溝通嗎有成效嗎我要問一下我的同事看看部長要不要回覆一下三個禮拜才質詢過而已現在普發現金是最熱門的一個事件那大家都在領現金"},{"start":5328.12,"end":5351.687,"text":"那當時的詐騙的情況我們要求要做處理是有跟書發部做了一些溝通但是詳細情況可是不是允許我會跟那部長這邊有沒有跟部長有沒有跟臉書跟meta這邊做溝通基本上大部分是透過我們都是透過這個我請你們一定要跟直接溝通你們還是透過書發部"},{"start":5353.755,"end":5365.584,"text":"我的意思是說這件事情其實全政府大家都要動起來的事情因為主管機關是數位發展部那個工具在他手上我認為經濟部也有很多的工具可以去做就是"},{"start":5366.806,"end":5384.088,"text":"要不要裁罰這個是工具裁罰是最後一步但是溝通跟協調絕對是一個前期一個重要的工作我希望部長政府的滿意度要高支持度要高的話就是要讓人民有感那人民其實現在對於詐騙這件事情其實是很不滿的"},{"start":5385.99,"end":5401.125,"text":"那我認為這件事情每個部會都要動起來啦就是每個部會都要動起來都有影響力也都能夠做得到那只是裁罰是最後不得已手段最後裁罰才是手但是在溝通協調階段很多的就可以達到效果了"},{"start":5401.485,"end":5424.734,"text":"我講過就是當我們都看得懂這是個詐騙的時候臉書Meta不可能看不懂他們更有更多的方式可以去阻絕到事情我也希望未來經濟部要持續定住這事情而不是立法委員在上面質詢過後然後你們就放在旁邊然後就說喔這是訴發部的事情交給訴發部喔這是警政署的事情交給警政署我希望未來各部會當立委提出這樣的要求三天內你也答應三天內會跟"},{"start":5426.041,"end":5452.933,"text":"跟演書Meta做溝通的時候我希望真的看到你們三天內做出了溝通而不是又丟給了訴發部我認為這個是個不好的一個互動方式好 這個我們不知道嗎 請未來要這樣子做那不然你當時就不要承諾我你三天會去溝通那如果你告訴我 我就知道了當初我們是想說因為數位發展部是主管機關我們還是要跟數位發展部共同來部長當重大社會議題的時候我希望各部會都有積極行政的態度啦"},{"start":5453.873,"end":5474.763,"text":"積極行政這件事情其實會變得很重要詐騙當是全全部人民都很厭惡的時候都很痛恨的時候的時候當經濟部門有更多積極的作為即使你是即使你一個關切的電話告訴Meta跟臉書的台灣的負責的相關人員告訴他們大家關注這一系題立委在"},{"start":5476.003,"end":5490.628,"text":"整個正式立法院委員會正式提出質詢那請你們要重視這個問題你們的技術能力絕對有辦法做到那如果你們一個認真的告訴他們這件事情我相信他們會更認真的做如果他們不認真做這件事情的話那社會給他們的壓力會更大"},{"start":5491.442,"end":5520.223,"text":"好不好我希望未來這件事情是大家全政府是一起動起來我再次提醒啦齁人民很重視關切利益的時候全政府都要動起來跟你有任何相關跟機會方式都要請大家要動起來這樣我們才有辦法讓人民感受到政府在這件事情上的用心跟積極度好不好好 再要請教一下現在有很多的國營事業也被假冒詐騙啦齁我認為這個也要加強宣導啦齁這個包括台電啦包括幾個都有可能被做這個這個是不是請"},{"start":5521.144,"end":5525.696,"text":"不斷的出新聞稿或者是圖卡說明這個不是這樣的情況"},{"start":5527.138,"end":5550.572,"text":"這個我希望一樣要重視這個就在經濟部轄下的包括各事業單位都現在詐騙手法非常的多翻線速度非常快政府唯有更快的效率去處理的時候才能讓人民很有感的覺得政府在堵住一方面我們加重這些詐騙的對他們的一些刑責一方面加重對他們的一些處罰同時這邊但是只要你沒有"},{"start":5551.212,"end":5576.503,"text":"能堵住的話那既然這樣的事情就不會再發生我還是要強調啦有時候一被詐騙可能就是數百萬上千萬的一個損失那對每個家庭都非常大的一個痛所以我希望這件事情部長要再用我們用更積極的態度去處理啦很多時候我們常有水單電費的各種的都可能會形成他們詐騙的一個工具好不好我們更積極的處理的時候就有機會減少國人被詐騙的機會好的"},{"start":5578.024,"end":5604.014,"text":"再要請教一下這個現在很多人在打擊綠電綠電其實全世界大家都在推動的我其實認為這個是對台灣是一個長遠來說是一個不利的一個發展方向全世界都在發展綠電但綠電在發展過程中一定有一些不孝業者去透過這個做違法的事情該打就打 該抓就抓 這必然要做的但是如果我們因為這樣而整體的限縮掉了所有的綠電的整體的發展"},{"start":5605.094,"end":5630.315,"text":"这对于台湾是不利的而且全世界现在很多企业都要绿电那对我们来说过度的去把这个绿电完全的堵住的时候对台湾未来的竞争力产生重大影响部长怎么看包括我们也觉得蛮遗憾的因为这个提案是基本上事实上民众党跟国民党都有提案那时候我们表达是说我们愿意用国民党的提案来作为协商的基础"},{"start":5630.933,"end":5646.247,"text":"但是很可惜並沒有被接受還是通過以這個民眾黨的版本那民眾黨版本是我們認為啦是過度嚴格啦部長那我請教行政院跟金門會不會再提出修正的版本出來因為這個綠電長遠來說是國際的趨勢也是我們重要的那"},{"start":5650.211,"end":5669.163,"text":"如果過頭了的話其實會對我們綠電產生很重大的一些影響經濟部跟行政院會不會再提出修法的一些這個提案回來希望能夠讓綠電但不肖的部分不適合部分當我們做處理但是過頭了這有可能造成我們一定是要打擊非法的來保障合法的"},{"start":5670.24,"end":5683.821,"text":"至於說要不要提出再修正這個我們來評估看看部長一定要提出來你不提出來的話你都認為這個對於整個台灣的競爭力長遠是發展是負面的是影響的你若不提出來的話那難道你要接受這樣一個狀況嗎"},{"start":5685.43,"end":5702.477,"text":"部長能不能在一個月的時間內提出行政院認為的修法的一個建議讓立法院整體來討論跟思考如果連行政院跟經濟部也都認為這樣的修法是過頭了是傷害到了綠電長遠的發展我希望一個月內提出經濟部的版本"},{"start":5703.217,"end":5721.283,"text":"提出經濟部的版本好嗎我們一個月會評估看看好不好一定要提出來啦因為你不提出來現在已經所有的綠電全部的全部已經很緊繃了嘛大家突然當年大家相信政府台灣要發展綠電的決心所以大家投入進來就發現突然現在一整個完全限縮回來之後那"},{"start":5722.103,"end":5747.164,"text":"這些原先信任政府相信政府要發展綠電的人全部會發現那到底政府的態度是什麼我認為應該要一個月內要提出來至少一個月內要提出來至少經濟部要提出你們版本你們的態度我相信你們都很了解也很熟悉了至少提出態度當大家擔憂了問題你們也做了解決但是有些過頭了影響到整個綠電長遠的競爭力的發展要提出你們的版本這樣才能夠讓"},{"start":5748.725,"end":5775.838,"text":"綠電能夠永續的發展這是全球的一個趨勢我認為經濟部要儘快提出來好嗎可以嗎我們來評估對好再來我來請教一下啦齁這個中油跟台電啦齁公安事故我一直在關切這件事情啦齁其實國營企業的公安事故我自己是老公子弟出生的每一個家庭如果公安發生了之後第一線是最辛苦的因為他可能影響到一個人甚至影響到一個家庭"},{"start":5776.318,"end":5804.826,"text":"我希望部長持續的包括董事長幾位董事長持續的重視公安事故這一段時間以來這幾年來中友12件台電29件這個都在增加而每一件的公安事故都是影響到一位工人第一線的工人甚至影響到一個家庭我認為這個都是重大的損傷不只對企業損傷所以我希望這個事件公安事件希望部長跟董事長必須要再重視"},{"start":5805.806,"end":5816.092,"text":"好嗎 好 那也一樣給我一個月內給我一份你們的加強公安的一個檢討報告好嗎 好不好這段時間我確實有注意到這件事情的一個增加好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢談"},{"start":5835.645,"end":5838.194,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請董事長還有部長 謝謝來 請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":5848.511,"end":5870.371,"text":"我想利用今天把这段时间让大家质疑的部分让我们的董事长能够很清楚说明清楚让部长这里了解到底我们要怎么应对因为其实从媒体的报道当中我们一直强调的我们一定要直求对决"},{"start":5871.654,"end":5892.221,"text":"到底我們現在調查到什麼程度到底我們所有的狀況是不是如此我們要講清楚所以我大概有幾個現在在週刊的爭議問題我想我還是比較希望透過你們這樣一問一答把很確定的表達我們現在所了解的狀況第一個問題是他說"},{"start":5896.67,"end":5913.967,"text":"我们施工的过程劳安问题频传造成七个人不幸丧命有这件事吗有这件事情不过这个数字上有点误识应该是六个人六个人那为什么呢这里面有三个案子是发生的"},{"start":5914.897,"end":5933.951,"text":"第一個案子就是那個沉箱在台北港製作的時候在他遷移到暫存區的過程中由於公安設施的不完整造成這個沉箱傾斜海水灌進去以後沉到海底那我們有做了應該有的處置跟處分嗎"},{"start":5934.671,"end":5951.214,"text":"是 事后当然就去检讨这个原因的发生的原因去做了一个适当的一个防务措施对于失职的人员去做一个适当的处置那都有跟这六位不幸上命的劳工有跟他们和解了公司有跟他们和解了吗是是是都有和解了都有都有"},{"start":5951.634,"end":5974.877,"text":"那我们也做了处置对于失职的人员有做了处置是造成这件事情不幸的事情是好那第二个问题他说这个工程内容品质不佳招职是豆腐渣工程那这个部分呢这个部分所指的就是也是那个沉箱的问题那么沉箱同一件"},{"start":5975.842,"end":5997.717,"text":"这两个案子不同件一个是针对品质一个针对公安对我是说他的工程都是你说的城乡都是同一个工程同一个城乡的工程对那么城乡制作完以后他要移到一个暂存区去放尸在那边去养护那么由于这个每一个城乡他之间的距离不够"},{"start":5998.857,"end":6012.456,"text":"所以照永浪这边去冲击以后这个城乡互相碰撞而造成破损这是第一个原因是因为它的距离不够所以整个冲击冲撞造成两个城乡"},{"start":6013.601,"end":6039.269,"text":"碰觸而造成他們有破裂的狀況所以並不是所謂的豆腐渣工程並不是說在這個鋼筋混凝土的參混比例上有問題或者是裡面有參一些特殊的東西其他的東西而造成的是因為距離不夠是沉箱的距離不夠然後他沒有計算到整個浪衝擊的狀況而造成兩個沉箱衝擊碰撞對不對是是這樣好"},{"start":6041.161,"end":6067.548,"text":"那麼第三個問題就是現在每天電視上都會看到的就是說我們是不是有福報預算金額對於整個三接二期的外推工程是不是有福報從原本的我們的94億然後因為我們的高層跟廠商私底下"},{"start":6068.976,"end":6093.576,"text":"做一個協調而暴增了成為253億然後說還有錄音檔我這個讓大家覺得好像是一齣連續劇一樣那這個問題呢報告委員就這個錄音檔裡面所呈現或者是週刊所報導的事項這個場景實際的場景是怎麼樣不知道"},{"start":6094.181,"end":6103.209,"text":"如果就週刊報導的文字去看這應該就是業者之間在那邊爆料引述說中油公司怎麼樣引述中油公司怎麼樣"},{"start":6104.997,"end":6126.365,"text":"這個裡面沒辦法證實這個參與的人有中友公司所以你認為現在說有廠商跟我們高層的這個對話並不是這個樣子應該是廠商的爆料引述是這個樣子對不對所以不是我們所謂的高層跟廠商之間的對話錄音"},{"start":6128.226,"end":6145.12,"text":"不是不是嘛現在所得到的訊息是這個樣子那麼這所謂的94億因為週刊有跑出一個94億這個94億從哪裡來的你有沒有去了解OK那麼但就實質面來看我們當然自己公司內部來檢視這個94億120億150億是從哪裡跑出來的是"},{"start":6151.345,"end":6174.664,"text":"目前內部的資料是完全沒有顯示這些數字我們得到的第一手台灣司機給我們的報價資料就是238.4億之後經過相關的程序以後最後預算調整到253億那麼之前所提到的那些數字完全在我們公司內部資料沒有呈現"},{"start":6175.783,"end":6197.191,"text":"所以在我們內部資料從來沒有出現過這94億的這個數字完全沒有因為這個重要的是預算我相信我們都在嚴格把關如果從94億然後沒有經過適當的程序而暴增到253億我也覺得很奇怪你怎麼沒有"},{"start":6199.966,"end":6229.326,"text":"你們還有審查的機制啊這個暴增非常多不是一億兩億說我變更可能我如果變更工程或是我有一些必須要突發的增加我們也有一定的程序這個都有比例的問題啊從94億跳到253億這個一看就不合啊尤其我們這個從過去到現在我們幾乎看了17年的預算"},{"start":6230.386,"end":6257.988,"text":"你要从94亿暴增不论是你是不是国营事业你是不是中游可是你还有一定的我们财政的一个规律没有人敢所以我才会说94亿到底文字有没有这个数字那董事长说是没有没有完全没有所以你们的数字里面从4C给你们的唯有一个叫238亿"},{"start":6260.289,"end":6280.142,"text":"對沒錯對不對然後最後你們所有調整完之後才跑出一個253億是的對不對在我們的資料裡面就這兩個數字從來沒有所謂的94億從來沒有所以董事長我覺得你們要很清楚的對外坦蕩蕩的"},{"start":6281.912,"end":6290.918,"text":"非常清楚就是没有这94亿的数字所以如果有人在引用不实的我们也不排除要"},{"start":6292.096,"end":6315.497,"text":"有法律的途徑因為這個真的把我們中油的這些辛苦的員工大家好像有一個陰影在好像我們私底下在做什麼樣的一個動作其實是沒有的嘛所以如果依照我們前面兩個問題就是六個人的不幸善命還有所謂的工程內容品質這些都是城鄉的問題嘛"},{"start":6316.738,"end":6344.619,"text":"那这个部分我们已经处理了已经完成和解了跟当事者六位上面的他的家属有要求我们的厂商跟人家和解吗都有吗都有确定吗确定确定都有确定吗所以都和解完而且也进行了所有相关的惩处对不对好那内容品质部分不是品质的问题是因为距离没有拉好所以这个要处分呢他为什么当时候设计是这个样子"},{"start":6345.599,"end":6370.241,"text":"但是它並不是豆腐紮工程是因為城鄉的距離不夠 造成這個浪的衝擊趴來趴去 那樣子很恐怖因為我在安南區我看很多我們整個所有海岸線那種衝擊那個是不是你能夠用一般的想法說那有可能 真的有可能"},{"start":6371.32,"end":6388.428,"text":"所以我們一定要把每一個事情把它分得很清楚對外講清楚不要蒙上這一層陰影而且第三個問題是我們根本從頭到尾就沒有94億這個數字就算4C第一次的資料就是238億然後最後調整完之後還減少變235億"},{"start":6395.103,"end":6418.714,"text":"是不是253億是250增加到253億所以我覺得就是要把它講清楚所以我覺得說今天我們希望透過這個機會讓我們中友公司講清楚一點一點把媒體報導的部分釐清然後如果有人在引用錯誤的我覺得我們還是要輸出法律途徑因為我們已經說明清楚了好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6425.479,"end":6450.068,"text":"陳庭北委員 我們接下來請楊秋英召委 謝謝謝謝主席 本席邀請工部長跟忠祐請工部長跟方董事長召委好"},{"start":6451.033,"end":6453.682,"text":"是 我想這一段時間大家聽到"},{"start":6457.16,"end":6483.972,"text":"輿論上的一個討論以及媒體的一個報導但是主席市的單位還是在在座兩位所以我們也非常的希望可以得到真正的答案到底是什麼人民要的是真相所以本席要來請教也就是在剛剛的部長您的說明當中跟董事長的說明當中你們說過在2022年的時候"},{"start":6487.657,"end":6510.884,"text":"当时发生了这个事情但是有人在113年检举的时候你们也去查了你们认为是查无不法那请问你们当时的查无不法你是查什么人查什么公司查什么内容你所谓的不法到底是什么请做说明"},{"start":6513.047,"end":6522.239,"text":"是 在113年的檢舉函裡面是那麼裡面所談到有兩個關係人之間的一些行為"},{"start":6523.581,"end":6549.768,"text":"那麼這封檢舉函並沒有署名是誰檢舉所以因此在接到這個檢舉函以後內部就去做調查到底有沒有這樣的一個實際的情形也就是說94變成最後的256裡面提到256在這個公司內部的所有相關的程序書面的資料以及相關的沒有這種情形"},{"start":6551.949,"end":6570.55,"text":"那麼同時對於主辦的這個單位的人員也進行約談那麼沒有查到這樣一個事實的一個情形過程是這個樣子所以你們所謂的你的查無不法是剛剛董事長所說的那這個有沒有記錄"},{"start":6573.449,"end":6590.596,"text":"這個在公司內部有記錄而且有呈報到經濟部的證封處那部長那你這個更應該可以公諸於世啊因為大家人民現在最希望的是能夠得到真相啊那像你們說你們113年潮不法那你可以公佈啊可不可以公佈"},{"start":6591.943,"end":6619.861,"text":"可不可以公布問一下政風看看對不對這是公開的嘛所謂的你已經查無不法嘛因為這個羅生門啊我本期不希望讓整個社會啊不斷的在質疑不斷的在質疑喔可不可以公布來請說巴偉因為我剛才問了政風以後他說這個是密件啊但是我們還是會把重要大家所關心的議題對外做說明"},{"start":6620.92,"end":6642.889,"text":"這個是密件那到底你已經說查無不法那可不可以公佈因為是密件密件你要怎麼樣再公佈你剛剛說你要責重點公佈那你這個邏輯有奇怪沒有 剛剛提到的可公佈就公佈不可公佈就不可公佈我們依法行政 對不對那到底可不可以公佈"},{"start":6644.339,"end":6668.937,"text":"整個報告是不能公布報告不能公布所以現在又有新市政剛剛你們也特別說了新市政你們要重啟政風的調查是不是所以我們再往前推你在整個巡駕跟訪駕中油公司到底做了哪些角色"},{"start":6671.773,"end":6688.467,"text":"這個重點是如此啊在你整個案子你必須在未開票以前你要尋家跟訪家那綜合公司你們怎麼樣委託委託之後的結果怎麼樣去做你的流程怎麼樣去拍板定案變成253億這才是重點啊部長這才是人民希望聽到的對這個也會在調查的過程當中在什麼時候調查"},{"start":6697.087,"end":6718.363,"text":"這個是中央公司說這個振豐他們振豐會調查大概12月中之前會報告會提給我們12月中之前大概一個月他的報告會給經濟部所以再請教你們現在所謂的有心事政有心事政那你們要查什麼"},{"start":6719.224,"end":6746.059,"text":"你要查什麼人 你要查什麼公司你要查什麼流程你的訪價 你的這個這個巡駕到底你們會不會朝這樣的方向去查不要再打假球人民不希望如此 希望給說明清楚你會朝本席剛才所說的這個方向嗎所謂這次新市政就是這個錄音檔嘛是新的市政那請問到底有沒有這個錄音檔我沒有聽過"},{"start":6749.246,"end":6753.142,"text":"你沒有聽過但是到底有沒有你一定要重啟針鋒重啟調查部長"},{"start":6756.414,"end":6785.746,"text":"有沒有這個錄音檔這個也是調查的一環我們當然會調查的一環換句話說有這個錄音檔還不知道這要調查以後才知道部長在國會我們經濟委員會我們希望讓社會不要有質疑所以特別邀請你們來說明董事長告訴我我沒有聽過然後你們說要重啟調查然後我再問你工部長到底有沒有這個錄音檔要調查以後才知道"},{"start":6787.165,"end":6812.984,"text":"現在沒有調查你不是已經告訴我們要在12月中你不是已經啟動了嗎你到底啟動了沒有啟動了什麼時候啟動中油公司在13號的那個委員會國民黨的記者會裡面就提出這樣一個事情從那天開始我們就開始啟動了13號開始啟動嘛是不是對開始啟動那到底有沒有這個錄音檔"},{"start":6815.667,"end":6832.88,"text":"那當時在媒體上面所報的那個總經理是誰因為你已經有方向啊你可以問啊為什麼不趕快去把這個質疑去清楚報導中所講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理"},{"start":6833.917,"end":6860.52,"text":"這個就是你們要查這個就是你們要查對不對這個也是我們中油公司必須要去了解清楚主旗幟者是你們那到底那個總經理是誰這個就是要查但是說老實話中油公司它本身也沒有調查權我們盡量會請相關的市政的相關人員來協助我們"},{"start":6862.694,"end":6884.749,"text":"那當然檢調是已經在調查了那我們當然所有的資料都會如果檢調有需要的話我們都會稍微檢調你是經濟部長中油是我們國家非常重要的事業單位是出現了這麼樣的一個這麼大的一個衝擊而且連續這三年不斷被質疑"},{"start":6885.839,"end":6902.606,"text":"我們中油公司自己內部不需要去調查清楚嗎光光已經指明有沒有錄音檔總經理是誰這些都是最容易讓你可以去清清楚楚明明白白了解到底內容是什麼"},{"start":6905.339,"end":6930.942,"text":"那您現在告訴本席說你們會在12月中旬提出你們的新市政的報告跟社會大眾來說明清楚是不是如此 是是不是如此那這是誰調查是中友內部調查還是政風調查你剛剛又說了2022年的時候你說那個那個你說查無不法"},{"start":6931.582,"end":6941.205,"text":"那也是政風調查政風調查你說不能公布耶可是你現在告訴我12月中要公布耶沒有 那個只是對外說明不是把調查報告公布我們會對外說明我們調查的結果對外說明調查的結果所以本席還是人民希望知道到底那個總經理是誰到底有沒有這個錄音檔"},{"start":6958.946,"end":6985.012,"text":"這些都是關鍵啊沒有錯 這個也是我們要了解甚至於這些廠商之間的對話可能他們也只是閒聊或胡說八道也不一定但是我們就是要查本期建議經濟部長你必須要審慎對峙而不是在國會裡頭講一個什麼閒聊講一個這個胡說八道"},{"start":6986.451,"end":7002.245,"text":"因為這已經是三年內讓社會大眾一直質疑一直質疑一個政府沒有辦法給民眾一個明確的方向而且你們已經在13號重啟調查如果你的立場是認為他是胡說八道"},{"start":7004.476,"end":7018.461,"text":"閒聊 那這個立場是不對的喔不對 是不對的喔因為聳動的聲音告訴我們以前有一部很有名的電影黑金他的台詞是說什麼他說了我們國家很有錢啊如果照媒體報導的這些內容這是非常聳動的一個言語耶部長"},{"start":7030.9,"end":7041.417,"text":"人民的納稅錢我們公共資源的安全性這是政府必須要有責任去穩定之的是不是市長部長 針對這個案子"},{"start":7048.161,"end":7064.92,"text":"人民已經這麼多這麼多的質疑你認為你應該要怎麼處置你的動作你的作為應該要怎麼樣我們還是尊重政風因為政風是一條邊的他們調查他們獨立調查我們盡量可以協助到但是我們不會指導"},{"start":7067.19,"end":7096.474,"text":"所以本席再次強調因為人民知道希望知道真相本席也再次強調確保整個公共資源以及民眾的生命安全這是非常的重要三接的工程大家是期待很高不管是在公安事件等等大家都勉勵但是不能如此的不清不楚從九十幾億如果照媒體報導九十幾億到一百多億"},{"start":7097.214,"end":7121.83,"text":"100多億到150億 150億要到253億本席再次強調 在中油的立場你們的自主性非常的高而且你們也必須要能夠掌控整個市場的樣態所以你們的巡價跟訪價這兩點要怎麼樣跟民眾來交代這是非常的重要啊 部長"},{"start":7123.852,"end":7152.148,"text":"循價跟訪價應該是4C吧是4C不是中油4C查出來之後再送給你們嘛你有沒有自主權你有沒有自主權所以本行一再強調你的循價跟訪價當然台灣4C所遞送的這個建議的預算253億的話中油公司當然要去複合要去審核好 就這一句中油公司必須去複合跟審議所以"},{"start":7153.291,"end":7176.008,"text":"本席就非常希望 就成如部長你所說的下個月中必須要提出給社會大眾說明清楚不要再讓民眾成為不法人士的一個提款機謝謝楊初英召委部長請回 謝謝"},{"start":7184.25,"end":7207.296,"text":"接下來我們請鄭政權委員請坐診堂謝謝主席想請一下經濟部工部長還有中油董事長 方董事長好 請三位 謝謝兩位 方董事長這位好部長好"},{"start":7208.394,"end":7231.532,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別安排的中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程款項的爭議的部分剛剛那個張偉這邊一直在問總經理到底是誰我記得方董事長之前在司法法制委員會曾經有提過這個總經理不是你應該是你前任的總經理針對這個部分可不可以請董事長做一個說明因為你剛剛一直閃避也不願意講總經理"},{"start":7232.393,"end":7247.147,"text":"到底是誰可是這個法制其實你有明確講到可不可以請董事長做個說明我當時回應就是說這個錄音檔週刊所報導這個文字呢講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理這第一點"},{"start":7248.028,"end":7268.684,"text":"那麼第二點就是說就以我個人來講在當時那個階段呢我並不是擔任總經理的職務是擔任副總經理的職務所以你講的是前總經理嗎那其實我在想說前總經理的名字是誰啊我沒有講這個裡面說你講那時間點比對出來啊就說那總經理當時是副總嗎當時總經理不是你啊所以當時總經理是誰"},{"start":7271.206,"end":7280.932,"text":"當時總經理是前董事長李順馨李順馨OK好那我想說因為今天我們在講說中油三接相關的問題其實對我們來說的時候"},{"start":7285.205,"end":7304.627,"text":"福報空城管這東西很重要可是對整個國人來講的時候怎麼樣子讓台灣的能源安全更重要中央為了要降低輸氣跟移運的風險提升儲槽的一個容量並穩定供應國內的一個天然氣從一階一直規劃到了七階經理部長這沒問題吧"},{"start":7306.67,"end":7327.979,"text":"一階到七階 我整理得很清楚那我們整個擴增儲存的容量大概總而要到多少 部長你知道嗎我只知道要儲存多少天 安全存量安全存量多少天現在是11天 那將來會到14天什麼時候到14天116年116年要到14天這個地方我簡單來做一個更"},{"start":7334.182,"end":7362.849,"text":"完整的一個說明其實我們目前從一階到七階這邊的時候整個LNG那個儲槽的總容量最多可以到達889萬公柄整個量到889萬公柄到目前為止大概只有165萬公柄目前的儲量就是增建跟新增的部分大概只有165萬公柄針對這個部分那個剛剛部長直接講說儲量現在是11天"},{"start":7363.849,"end":7387.319,"text":"不過因為之前 審計部之前有曾經提到目前的儲量可能不到11天只有10.6天這8月份的時候 就審計部特別提出來的一個數字如果不到11天就是違法的一個狀態所以針對這個部分的時候呢針對這個部分我們經濟部 中油這邊要怎麼樣去符合我們天然氣法的要求"},{"start":7388.359,"end":7407.134,"text":"以目前這樣進度一直裹足不前然後很多的案件我們從一階到七階目前在走的時候呢只有一階跟二階就是現有然後新增的部分我想請教一下兩個問題新增的部分目前有哪幾個地方已經新建完成"},{"start":7409.204,"end":7432.477,"text":"新增的部分現在其中在是在永安台中以及周濟高雄周濟這三個地方的接收站這現有的啦我說新增的部分新增就在周濟高雄周濟所謂的七街七街完成了嗎建造中建造中很多"},{"start":7433.666,"end":7458.894,"text":"董事長你把我這整個東西去整個看一下如果說我們這邊有些進度有一些沒有非常跟上的時候你給我們一些指導我目前看起來的時候我說已經興建中的這些都在檯面上面程度不一樣那我說已經興建完成的有哪幾個地方已經興建完成的在第一階就永安嘛"},{"start":7459.879,"end":7481.038,"text":"二階台中 但是本來現有的啦我說新建 新增的部分我這邏輯很清楚嘛現有的是現有的不然現在天然氣不可能發電啦新增的部分從一階到七階當中的時候看起來只有三階的部分 三階兩座除草了兩座OK了嘛 對不對那什麼時候可以投入運營"},{"start":7482.932,"end":7507.541,"text":"已經運營了已經正式在運營了是不是所以新增的部分就這兩座投入運營那我這邊想問一下部分就是說按照現在這情況我們目前只有165萬公秉在新增的兩個部分的時候我們目前占到我們889萬公秉整個量大概是百分之多少"},{"start":7510.123,"end":7528.913,"text":"我是不曉得這個數字是從哪裡來的而且是包含哪些內容但是我相信這裡面有包含了四街的除潮在裡面一街到七街全部都算起來了因為四街是屬於台電的所以我沒辦法去回答直接現在就回答你這個問題"},{"start":7531.055,"end":7546.191,"text":"那針對這個部分因為我們關心的狀態是整個的一個擴建計畫的一個進度那現在又碰到了這個三接這個第二期招標這個部分碰到一個疑雲的狀態的時候疑似弊案的狀態的時候"},{"start":7546.852,"end":7561.064,"text":"我們認為他可能會被拖到所以針對這樣的情況我們關心的是整個擴建的計畫跟進度那我想就中油這邊可以掌控的部分整理完之後之後到本辦公室給我們很清楚的一個資料好不好好"},{"start":7562.285,"end":7584.005,"text":"那我想說針對整個經濟部轄下這個中油這樣子的一個標案的疑雲我這邊要特別提到一個部分就針對台電這個部分也有一個類似的一個情況就是合一合二廠的核子燃料室室內乾式儲存設備這個部分部長知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":7585.134,"end":7610.541,"text":"我知道215億的那個高額的一個採購案那因為開的是國際標所以兩個廠商兩個廠商都是美國的廠商那目前有一家廠商他們覺得受到不公平的一個對待對台電對台灣來說都是影響到國際的一個形象的一個部分那針對這個部分的時候部長有沒有去了解"},{"start":7611.041,"end":7621.475,"text":"台電這裡面情況到底是怎麼一回事為什麼會讓國際的廠商認為他們受到不公平的對待而且提出申訴我是不是請台電說明一下可以"},{"start":7624.064,"end":7650.765,"text":"跟委員報告因為廠商提出的已遇台電目前都還在釐清中那剛才有提到說有美國籍的那個中國籍的部分我們有檢視過那個人確實是中國出生但是他已經放棄中國籍什麼時候放棄中國籍這個我們還要再查但他現在確定的是只有一個美國籍而已所以你們不知道他什麼時候放棄中國籍我們不知道但是委員要的更細的可能要回去再提供給委員OK因為"},{"start":7651.986,"end":7660.603,"text":"美國的廠商就是言舉得非常非常的具體因為他說他取得"},{"start":7661.789,"end":7685.562,"text":"美國籍的時間跟他擔任這個專案的時間有明顯的一個落差在他當專案的時候已經多次用大陸籍的身份到台灣來而且可能進到我們核能相關的一個設備核能設備就跟國安問題有關如果是這樣的情況完全踩到了目前陸委會設定下來的兩岸關係的紅線"},{"start":7687.883,"end":7709.714,"text":"所以針對這個部分我們需要很清楚的知道您今天提到說他是美國籍他什麼時候取得美國籍他什麼時候放棄中國籍他過去幾次來台做公務的工作的時候是不是用觀光簽證進來還是如何這個部分是不是都會一起給我們一個交代"},{"start":7711.216,"end":7731.975,"text":"還是跟委員報告我們會提供那針對涉及國安的關鍵基礎措施台電還是一樣會遵守相關的規定只要是中國企業我們是不同意他的所以這個部分非常非常的具體那我們希望既然是採國際標就希望能夠讓所有的國際的廠商都覺得台灣是一個公平"},{"start":7732.987,"end":7759.955,"text":"公開去合理招標的一個情況而不會有獨厚特定廠商的一個問題那我想說針對這個部分我們希望部長對於中油跟台電的部分這兩大就是以往被我們國人都認為是優質的一個國營企業可是現在不斷的涉及到一些疑似弊案的問題我們希望部長這邊能夠對中油跟台電的部分"},{"start":7760.935,"end":7769.219,"text":"嚴加監督管理然後也給本辦公室很清楚的一個後續相關的資料好不好謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請謝一鋒委員請做詢問"},{"start":7789.622,"end":7804.176,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請我們公共工程副主委副主委經濟部長工部長還有我們中油的董事長中油董事長 請謝偉豪"},{"start":7809.988,"end":7830.871,"text":"那個我要問他我要問他我想請教一下就公共工程的執掌來講那就這一次中油的這個三接的工程案有沒有違反任何有他的合法性"},{"start":7832.405,"end":7861.183,"text":"跟委員說明就目前因為我們是從政府採購上面可以公開取得的資料我們有去檢視過就形式上看起來我們沒有發現有什麼特別異常那因為如果依照媒體的這個報導它有可能會被質疑的應該是在巡駕的那個階段那個階段我們目前我們會啟動專案的集合那我們專案集合才有辦法"},{"start":7862.208,"end":7870.624,"text":"去看個案的其他非公開的資料所以我們等到專案集合去看了以後才有辦法看看說有沒有問題"},{"start":7871.701,"end":7893.926,"text":"那就政府部門而言如果這個採購案沒有任何的違法但是就目前民眾所疑慮的是整個發包的成本它是不是有合理性這個部分我們行政院有沒有相關的組織"},{"start":7895.746,"end":7923.412,"text":"有沒有相關的部門可以來釐清所有工程成本的合理性那如果我們沒有相關的單位可以釐清每一個政府部門公共工程這樣子成本的合理性的時候那過去以及未來我們工程裡面這個成本的控管如何來處理"},{"start":7924.909,"end":7950.056,"text":"跟委員報告當然在行政的流程上面有層層的一個控管包括那是行程控管但是成本合理性的控管呢公共工程有嗎我們有編了一些參考的一些資料因為每個工程的差異性非常大項目也非常多所以我們就是就一些共通性的一些以前結標的這些相關的價格的資料庫每個資料庫"},{"start":7951.716,"end":7977.427,"text":"那我們還有針對大宗的一些資產啊那麼也提供比較及時的有這兩個資料但是這個是政府的既定政策所以當政府的既定政策一決定以後那所延伸的就是那如果在工程大家認為政府必要必須必須要做的時候那會不會漫天開架會不會造成工程的浪費那"},{"start":7978.627,"end":8004.729,"text":"我們行政部門怎麼樣子來做監督以及稽查那給予立法部門在審理預算期間相關的資料呢那如果政府部門也沒有相關的管考的措施的時候我們怎麼樣子確定這一次的工程以及給予立法院的預算報告是有合理性的"},{"start":8005.639,"end":8021.517,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當然這一次的預算到底有沒有浮編這要經過調查啦那麼就整個採購的過程裡面它的一套的設計本來就是要確保這個預算編列的一個合理性"},{"start":8022.057,"end":8048.03,"text":"那麼再加上我們審計單位有事後審計的一個制度那就以本工程為例的話因為它涉及到專業性事後審計已經緩不濟急了是不是事後審計已經緩不濟急了審計目前的作業其實也不限於事後審計它可以隨時審計那麼就工程個案因為它涉及到專業性所以我們必須如果說機關本身不具"},{"start":8049.511,"end":8067.146,"text":"這個專業性他當然必須委託專業機關機構去來評估那麼再根據市場的行情以及相關的這一些關我提到的我們有一些資料庫去綜合比對所以這個東西要經過個案去看看到底有沒有福報是要經過這樣層層的查核"},{"start":8070.322,"end":8096.732,"text":"國務部長那就這個部分經濟部有沒有折承中油或者是你們經濟部部內就要開始對該項的合約的這樣子成本的合理性你們是不是有做相關的調查你是說事後還是事前現在啊現在有啊你們是不是已經開始在調查什麼時候可以給大家對"},{"start":8099.1,"end":8120.334,"text":"對不起就是剛剛中央公司已經講了就是12月中之前他會把那個調查結果報到我們部裡面來你們調查是對整個發包嗎但是對於這整個工程的合理性因為現在大家在質疑的是不是工程上面有福報嘛那你們看你們福報如果按照"},{"start":8121.415,"end":8140.109,"text":"週刊所寫的是如實的話但會讓民眾認為你們福報金額這麼大那我們在立法院三一個一億兩億但中油就挨挨叫既然福報金額可能200億300億所以立法院如果三200億300億那有什麼"},{"start":8142.17,"end":8171.127,"text":"是不是不是不是如果据我了解我看的那个资料来讲的话事实上世纪公司他有跟上因为一个工程他基本上这个材料多少钱他的施作多少钱事实上他有非常细的那那个东西以后他们当然有工程上他有一些技术性的问题那他综合评估起来以后然后他会报一个价钱给综合公司那综合公司会公开阅览让大家来看"},{"start":8171.767,"end":8200.544,"text":"这个标案这个多少钱那也会去仿价我这个标案情况下的话大致上可以多少那不同的公司以后那司机综合以后他会报一个价钱去给中油中油呢自己再审查一次看合不合理那合理的话那再做成案子报到我们经济部来我们经济部也就会经过审查然后再报到行政院去那行政院呢他会通常会交付给国防会做审查"},{"start":8201.224,"end":8228.259,"text":"那國安會會再問相關部會包括公共工程委員會他這樣的案子是不是合理那這樣的情況之下行政人才會核定所以當初是有這樣子一個流程的是不是所有的公共工程都是有這樣的所以當初你們並沒有發現有福報嗎就是按照所以最主要是在中油裡面還是在經濟部"},{"start":8230.751,"end":8253.092,"text":"是不是委員我做進一步說明好 你說那麼剛剛部長所報告呢是針對計畫本身整體計畫的部分那會有經過部啦到國發會啦到院去核定這整體的計畫那至於這個計畫要實施以後對於各項的工程那麼所需要編列的預算去公告招標"},{"start":8253.905,"end":8273.404,"text":"那這個部分的話是審核就在公司的董事會核定並沒有報到部裡面去了那剛剛部長也提到就是說講得很清楚因為這個工程它是牽涉到很專業所以對我們公司來講必須要委託專業公司來做這個海事工程的一個評估給我們報價"},{"start":8274.565,"end":8298.871,"text":"那这个过程中会经过公开阅览经过厂商询价最后所定出来的提供给我们是253亿的一个预算公司这边接到253亿以后当然会去复核会去审核这里面所编列的项目的合理性那我们审核的结果是认为是合理的所以经过董事会之后才进行后续的采购"},{"start":8299.827,"end":8320.997,"text":"好現在民眾最質疑的不是當初你們認為是不是合理的而是到底整體的採購這個發包案到底在成本的合理性上面是不是能夠受公平是不是能夠更有效率的我希望不管是公共工程委員會還是經濟部"},{"start":8322.798,"end":8338.749,"text":"應該要責成行政院對於所有工程成本的合理性要進行你們要也許成立一個新的單位或是相關的就是跨部會的小組一定要對這個我認為龔部長你可以提出的"},{"start":8339.73,"end":8363.788,"text":"报告委员因为公共工程委员因为他本来就有一个什么项目什么样的工程什么样的成本他有一个range让大家可以依循跟参考那你如果超过这个价格显然那会不会是range我是说应该你们要有一个成本合理性行政部会要有一个成本合理性的一个公共工程成本合理性的这样子一个组织啊"},{"start":8364.548,"end":8385.144,"text":"你才能告訴民眾啊不然你們現在根本大家都在懷疑啊公共會就是這個單位啊扮演這樣的角色我知道我是說他們要召開要來說明啊還有我還有第二個問題喔就是在挪威人這個事件上面喔那我想請問一下喔"},{"start":8387.259,"end":8401.589,"text":"所涉及的因為我們在2022年有修了國家安全法對於商業間諜以及營業秘密外洩有相當就是說程度的規範這個是國家核心關鍵技術項目清單裡面有32項我想要請問部長"},{"start":8411.569,"end":8437.946,"text":"羅為仁如果把兩奈米以下的排氣墊的技術帶到英特爾去那這涉及到哪一個技術就是技術清單裡面哪一個項目報告委員就是說的確這些清單它的這些項目是我們經濟部來擬定的那當然經過相關的程序是確定下來"},{"start":8440.46,"end":8455.018,"text":"但是罗一仁拿走什么样的技术这个应该由台积电来认定我们也会配合高检署的调查来做说明他拿走的相关技术是不是符合"},{"start":8455.839,"end":8483.342,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這個清單裡面如果符合這個國家核心關鍵技術的項目清單的話那他就就是違反了國家安全法是不是有這樣的疑慮對是不是還是由司法單位來最後的判定那如果他違反了國家安全法的時候我們就要怎麼樣你們會不會要"},{"start":8484.713,"end":8507.795,"text":"起訴你們要這個由司法單位才有辦法做決定對我是說你們是不是要去要提出檢調單位跟司法單位才有辦法做那現在司法單位有做進一步的調查嗎高檢署有開始在調查了所以高檢署進行調查了那台積電還沒確定這個我們就不知道因為這是偵查如果需要我們配合的話我們當然就會配合"},{"start":8507.995,"end":8533.85,"text":"所以你們目前還不了解台積電確認這個核心技術外洩的部分是到什麼樣的程度你們不了解這個要由公司來說明比較好那你有瞭解他們評估的進度是如何的嗎什麼進度就是他們要查明這個外洩的進度是說高檢署還是台積電"},{"start":8536.725,"end":8563.21,"text":"因为什么样的秘密泄露出去这个也是属于秘密这个我们还是要尊重台积电对可是我认为你们还是要去了解因为涉及到国家安全的国家安全法的相关规定还有这涉及到现在我们整个就是说半导体要移到美国去的这样子的相关的问题"},{"start":8563.87,"end":8588.278,"text":"那民眾對於這個相關的到底關鍵技術有沒有外洩以及能不能留下N-1最核心的技術在台灣這都是我們目前民眾所關心的問題我們請部長回去好好跟台積電溝通了解可以嗎可以可以可以好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":8592.318,"end":8617.323,"text":"接下来我们请陈昌明委员请做询答 谢谢陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员"},{"start":8622.867,"end":8641.194,"text":"中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程的這項爭議那我很簡單講這個案件真的很奇怪為什麼奇怪這要有做過生意的人要有摸過這個行政的人才能曉得你們在108年9月16號是以661億為基層這個三接案但是為了"},{"start":8652.372,"end":8663.652,"text":"外推的那個提防的話所以在111年3月21日行政院核定900"},{"start":8666.712,"end":8672.018,"text":"965億 增加了305億 這個市值很龐大奇怪的在哪個地方 我叫你找調查的方向"},{"start":8687.435,"end":8711.123,"text":"为什么会在111年7月的时候就结标3月21日核定7月21日结标这个一定有庞大的势力在影响才有这么快我没有看到说国家的失业效率这么好了这个是第一个疑点第二个你们的预算编列在112年到118年"},{"start":8715.953,"end":8734.586,"text":"分作這幾年度的編列沒有關係我們會通過但是這裏面藐視我們立法院的審議權你沒有通過就發包這個是一個一大的疑點所以在這裡面我覺得問題的來源在哪個地方"},{"start":8736.451,"end":8741.573,"text":"寶丁你要聽嗎你四季設計顧問工程公司這來對的是最大的疑點我現在先再來跟你講你們的薪價東振公司226億紅華239.6億黃昌269億"},{"start":8761.82,"end":8788.412,"text":"那這裡面就產生了一個問題結標的時候那個東正宮是252.7億那個黃昌253.5億雖然是有立標那紅華做過很多海事工程這一定有人在操作應用啊這個就是在綁標你們要看得出來這個問題在哪裡"},{"start":8790.492,"end":8816.966,"text":"再来我第三点跟你讲所以在世袭里面他以前都是做铁路公路什么突然做到海边的这一边那黄昌公司以前也没有做什么大的案件他只做了你们第一期的海边的土地那一般都能做外面在传说黄昌企业就是民进党的企业"},{"start":8818.368,"end":8835.624,"text":"世襲公司的董事長你去查一下我看啦 總有的人很老實不敢唯唯作歹也不敢福報價格一定如果有這樣事一定受到某種壓力奇怪不奇怪"},{"start":8836.9,"end":8863.004,"text":"三月份核定 七月份結標消費人員會神通廣大 點了這幾點請檢調單位好好查查私信 查房倉還有一個你們幻亞兩個合作的幻亞是國軍退十億官兵的所存在的 為此分析出來看事情 看美感"},{"start":8864.315,"end":8890.223,"text":"我們實在講 中油公司都很老實實在連續賠錢 什麼都要承受押令部長 你也當過國外會主委你剛剛講你的流程就看了大概就知道大概這樣的方向 已經不離譜了啊 這個政府真的很奇怪啦務求必勝負啦我這樣把你選擇 你就知道啦"},{"start":8891.94,"end":8915.031,"text":"再來我今天要問你對日的問題其實是很嚴重的問題美國川普總統說台灣拖欠他的晶片我們台灣以前的社會做盤子讓他這樣求現在當作他的提款金他說以後美國很快就會恢復世界最大的晶片工廠"},{"start":8918.957,"end":8942.366,"text":"你國安會主委你當時怎麼先試鏘了終於就請回座我點了你不要風騷不要怕這裏面我知道中台會運作夠有辦法 沒沒沒人會有事這樣去做他說要變成世界最大的晶片工廠 趕快就會回覆區 回去而且"},{"start":8943.376,"end":8963.142,"text":"他說經濟的安全就是國家的安全你們推了瑞科學研期你們推了生態的那個半導體的那個生態化全部要移過去你這就不會台灣了你以前說台灣最好的基礎解決不會留基礎信誓旦旦"},{"start":8964.895,"end":8991.843,"text":"你愛主義你一定會講好聽話其實大家已經看出這個問題你台灣算老幾你敵人政治裡面他美國拿過去你台灣算老幾你不曉得霸權主義有多厲害他把台灣當作殖民地你以求以求我講得太聽了你好像要做流亡之舞全部送給美國日本還有最近又發生了兩件事情"},{"start":8992.901,"end":9018.234,"text":"我在執行裡面一直講 日本偷竊二耐米的好 偷竊了 只有檢調單位來調查我現在發覺台灣到處都是日本間諜 美國間諜你怎麼不出聲不知道要不要調查單位 不敢怎麼大肆的搜索你覺得日本退了美國卡的軟爛喔"},{"start":9019.836,"end":9044.871,"text":"把台灣賣掉你不要講沒有還好不是啟動啦啟動都沒有聲音我一直強調一次啦日本的那個那個REPIT還是什麼那個公司那是國家級的公司偷竊餒你們一天的新聞就沒有了還講沒有台灣當時充滿了日本的經濟間諜美國的經濟間諜要挖台灣的根"},{"start":9048.186,"end":9075.536,"text":"台積電的副總把資料帶過去俄耳奈米日本的俄耳奈米還有S4 S6的奈米及海鷗洪裝的機制全部80箱到英特爾你看美國人多困難你看日本人多辛苦只要你們不台灣做第一流的"},{"start":9077.255,"end":9098.949,"text":"你不要把台湾卖光啊我拜托现在的执政政府其实台湾的地理位置很好诶你可以左右红颜左右摇摆为什么你怕时机很快就来了看到这样人家是要拿你台积电所有的签法机制啊不会啦"},{"start":9099.921,"end":9128.346,"text":"不會 我們也不允許已經在發生了 你們都不會你們都講好聽話沒有啊我從來沒有看過一個官員都說喔 這個擴展實力這個是毀滅台灣聽得進去就好聽不進去也沒有關係反正你讓台灣自生自滅嘛沒有 台灣的半導體最先進的技術最先進的技術最大的量級我還在看這幾個月以前看出來了很多"},{"start":9129.997,"end":9152.777,"text":"你讓我拿60%拿50%去美國省產我愛省產你不算什麼了你不要洋洋得意有什麼洋洋得意台灣的耕 台灣的土都被你們賣光了 謝謝沒有這樣的事啦好 謝謝接下來我們請柯子豐委員請做詢答"},{"start":9161.132,"end":9167.111,"text":"谢谢赵伟我们是请部长还有我们请我们中游的董事长请两位谢谢"},{"start":9173.465,"end":9194.904,"text":"各位好部长跟董事长好我想今天不管是从礼拜一的这个司法法制还有我们经济委员会大家都聚焦在有关于中油这个遭检举福报工程的一个争议那我是不是有非常多的厘清也有非常多的反问那我想先请很简单的问一下这个部长你要不要替中油的清白来背书来打包票"},{"start":9196.322,"end":9216.958,"text":"至少到目前我說目前的相關事證來講的話中油公司並沒有不法所以說你目前為止還是相信中油的一個清白我們還是要看你還是會啟動行政調查嗎會我覺得中油說實在的我看一下從歷屆的這個公告的標案當中董事長"},{"start":9220.42,"end":9230.784,"text":"2024-292022-620還有包括629再公告你們主標案預算都是在253億沒錯吧一直都是253億所以說你預算從頭到尾都是253.0513852億"},{"start":9234.065,"end":9248.784,"text":"沒有94億的版本而且是在2020年1月董事會當中呢你也是提出253億那我請問一下從頭到尾都是253億你都不會直接講從頭到尾都沒有變過那所謂的94億到底是出自於哪一份正式文件"},{"start":9250.182,"end":9265.834,"text":"不知出自何處 內部文件那有沒有任何的部分是出顧五十九十三億是誰人說的啦到底是工程處對口的 口頭的對業者講的還是顧問公司內部的不然你為什麼說都是一致的一個數字啊"},{"start":9266.454,"end":9287.592,"text":"而且最重要的是 你如果一開始就說我們從2022年董事會通過就是253億你不說 中禮拜物價 指數 房價 相似工程 單價等你都講這些所以你難怪會被質疑到你是不是刻意不提那個早期招標的歷史是不是避重就輕嘛這是你的回應讓大家衍生出更多的問題當主定啊"},{"start":9289.801,"end":9294.026,"text":"我們在新聞稿呈現的就是講從頭到尾就是2531但是你看有這麼多94億一路過來這個東西指標性你看那個歷屆的一個數字你看941221 150億到22到253沒有這些數字"},{"start":9305.481,"end":9333.375,"text":"所以說你從頭到尾就是鎖定253嘛好那這個部分你要做更清楚253從頭到尾不要再去講一些其他的指數什麼什麼的那就額外都是延伸正義啦好不好當鎖定這個很重要啦那我們再來比較一些這個官堂外推的防波體喔你跟印度當然大家會講說這個比數上是差距很大5倍的價值差你當然會告訴我們說兩岸的工法不一樣啦地質波浪施工難度也都不一樣但是5倍"},{"start":9334.255,"end":9343.135,"text":"同樣是同樣的一個距離卻是五倍的價錢中央在這一點上面除了你告訴我公法跟其他根本做的不一樣你有沒有需要再被澄清的"},{"start":9344.671,"end":9373.325,"text":"我今天看到委員提出這個案例我們當然會去做比對不過就工程本身來講你在不同的地點不同的環境好 那我就告訴你所以這個部分五倍單位的造價的差距你必須要給我完整我要求每一公尺的造價分析每一座城鄉的單價還有混凝土剛才海事脫工的單價拆解還有完整工程量的計算表麻煩你送一份到我這邊過來我們這邊也有專家可以一一來去做一個"},{"start":9374.085,"end":9388.236,"text":"比對可以嗎可以好這個部分是因為在印度的部分裡面這的確是同樣的距離你們的單價區比別人還要高還有這就是剛剛不管是每一個委員都會特別提到的這個大家就提到這個150的為什麼會暴增305億我真的還是要從你們這邊聽出來因為你從頭到尾大家就是在時間軸的問題你2021年5月你就已經把三居預算從660提到9652021你就已經鎖定了"},{"start":9402.287,"end":9430.466,"text":"2022在這個預算書上面你們還是660億的版本所以難怪人家會說阿得宅壓供2021就知道增加305億那為什麼在2022年的時候你硬要說只增加150305跟150億就會有一個落差明明就知道所以難怪人家會說那你是不是送給我們是660億那你中間的落差你們早就先絕標你這個時間如果沒有講清楚你就還是會被困在這裡我保證從頭到尾大家都只會問這個問題"},{"start":9431.646,"end":9452.342,"text":"那你們的統一的說法是什麼當時講150億是講的跟外推直接相關的部分是150億但是你提修正計畫的時候也要根據當時的一些情境有別的因素一起納進去但是你在2025月的第三次修正計畫就寫965億你當然會知道那怎麼還敢講只有150億呢你那時候就這個落差我再問你這個問題"},{"start":9458.427,"end":9478.433,"text":"我們在112年的預算書啊已經呈現了是 960所以說我覺得這個矛盾點好不好都已經知道增加了那你要強調外推你卻是150你對外說法是所以人家就會說你是計劃未修正不得先決標就是程序跟時間軸的問題你必須要把它釐定清楚"},{"start":9479.333,"end":9498.116,"text":"這才是一個重點就一直耗在這個地方部長你說對不對從剛剛到現在就在這數字跟時間使用上你沒有辦法兜在一起所有公司會對外更大的說明就是到965億事實上他所增加預算305億不只是外推而已他還有其他的加進去的"},{"start":9498.556,"end":9511.541,"text":"那你如果知道是305億的話你就不需要不需要再過去一直強調你中間有個落差我還是強調這個部分什麼時候要核定什麼要去做我再告訴你如何把他曾經同樣的問題然後回答同樣問題完全沒有辦法鬥解最後一個主席給我一分鐘時間問到我們永安LNG的這個處長目前到底是如何我覺得這個目前不然"},{"start":9520.265,"end":9545.82,"text":"三座的地下型的薄墨式的儲槽二四一七不夠 雖然擺成兩座變成二八九然後也獲得同意但是目前為止我們五期這是我們各項 應安是我們各項現在又在流標然後替代方案研究案都是五次公告才絕標那這些都是未來可能會發生的狀況這是我們鄉親大家做玩樂然後我就是最後一個我真的要問永遠都是你看"},{"start":9547.681,"end":9567.194,"text":"當數定啊 你看原來247億改了28億然後兩座然後到底有沒有同步來調整期程跟預算的目標然後目前都處在高負載那我們五期的延宕會不會造成我們供給的一個風險最重要就是我剛剛所呈現出來預算低估流標補預算再流標計劃再修正時間延宕能源風險提高這個已經變成是我們所有在質詢裡面所有的SOP的前面一張那這部分未來要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":9577.921,"end":9601.566,"text":"對不對 這哪個 我就把它歸納成都是這個樣子啊這個部分的話 永遠都是 如果這樣子的話都是流標 然後再補預算 再修正 然後你每個人問的都是這個 對不對是 報告委員 我做說明永安五期呢 它關鍵是在於永安五期啊 它的儲槽是地下室的我知道 我知道那麼由於地下室的儲槽呢 現在是沒有市場"},{"start":9602.642,"end":9627.919,"text":"真正要去做的話他需要一做除潮要花時間非常花的那個金額非常大因此我們希望的是改地上潮地上潮其實鄉親就會非常焦慮你知道地上潮擺在那邊具體的東西擺在那邊大家就很高興所以說我們還要去跟居民去溝通你要好好溝通除潮的部分有延後的部分我們就是在期間週期接受在那邊"},{"start":9628.459,"end":9657.944,"text":"你必須要跟居民好好的溝通因為造成非常居民的恐慌但是我還是強調低估流標補預算流標計畫修正這個的部分你可以把它縮短一次就到位否則永遠都是在時間軸在預算在補件永遠都還是會降低了中游對社會觀感還有很大的一個信任度好不好這個是董事長要帶回去這個數字時程一出手精準好不好還是強調你的永安的這個部分還是要跟我們鄉親多溝通好"},{"start":9659.568,"end":9679.271,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請吳宗憲委員請做詢問謝謝主席那我們請部長還有公共工程委員會的副主委好 我們請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":9686.745,"end":9710.764,"text":"兩位早安我想今天雖然我們的主題是中油三接工程但是我想說因為時間很寶貴那我還是希望說把這個重要的議題我們留在一些重要的事情上面我想其實國家激獻我們宜蘭人15年的蘇澳分紅道的這個問題我想請教一下部長有關這個蘇澳溪的分紅設施到底什麼時候才能動工"},{"start":9712.596,"end":9739.733,"text":"我們這個我要check一下但是我們現在已經開始在進行當中已經核定了增加預算也都確定什麼時候動工啊我知道那個程序上上個月就已經跟我講了跟委員報告現在正在做設計我們預計明年度就可以開票為什麼要到明年因為現在目前整個設計階段大概在接近收尾那相關的預算完之後我們還有一些程序新增21億你們怎麼處理"},{"start":9742.217,"end":9760.559,"text":"21億 那院長新核定下來的部分因為對 這會在總工程經費裡面因為它很多的標所以後續會在各標裡面沒有啦 你們院長前幾天才講你有沒有注意到嗎對 就四年一千億嘛 對不對這院長說的嘛那我也是對他這句話其實我一點不滿啦"},{"start":9761.62,"end":9777.833,"text":"我覺得為什麼要再綁到四年一千億因為一千億你到底是要用這二十一億你去卡一千億裡面的什麼東西到時候這一千億如果在野黨認為裡面一千億裡面有一點點有哪個部分編列有問題希望要修改的時候你又說你在卡書號"},{"start":9778.894,"end":9803.856,"text":"蘇俄西的分紅工程嗎這不是就是政府每次都要玩這個東西都是拿一些很重要救命的東西綁到一個大計畫裡面那萬一你對那個計畫裡面哪一個小東西有意見然後他就開始出來講部長我想請問你一下我想這次蘇澳的永春還有永樂兩個里的土石流這個你知道吧那兩個里有發生土石流你知不知道然後蘇澳的市區也水淹到胸部這個你知道嗎"},{"start":9805.552,"end":9816.524,"text":"好 萬一你不知道就算了那我想這個我們原來人用生命用一輩子 住了一輩子的家用這個的事實去質問政府你到底什麼時候才要做"},{"start":9817.31,"end":9836.25,"text":"所以上個月上個月22號我在這裡同一個地方也問過水利署長還有部長您兩個點第一個頭城外澳街道接天宮那個淹水達一公尺還有第二個蘇澳溪的分洪設施我那時候質詢這兩個就沒想到不到一個月慘劇就發生那我想"},{"start":9837.247,"end":9861.143,"text":"我講喔 你看喔這次蘇澳後來發現有一個人淹死嘛那其實這個分洪道的工程是15年前梅基颱風之後就說要做的那當時是38條人命那96個人受傷那這個當時的產距換來的這個工程那這麼多死傷還不夠嗎 還要再拖嗎這是我今天不滿的一個意見那我昨天也有提到說"},{"start":9861.943,"end":9876.38,"text":"那为什么不用二辈经开始先做先祈先能提早动工为什么不能这样子呢你们有没有想过因为二辈你们可以申请啊主要还是要先做土地征收啦"},{"start":9877.801,"end":9901.519,"text":"對 還有漁民的相關漁業簽署 我跟你講啦依據預算法70條規定很清楚因正式臨時需要的話 得動之第二預備金然後今天 院長前兩天講的是說他要綁在四年一千億的預算裡面那我今天我去查了一下 其實我看了一下 其實國家的二備金還有六十億左右啦並不是說沒有錢 那其實"},{"start":9903.105,"end":9921.878,"text":"我覺得我必須要跟全國同胞報告跟宜蘭的報告就是說其實現在二輩軍其實還有錢那我們不能說像院長說的院長說我要綁到一千億四年一千億的自治預算那個部分不會影響到進度的問題"},{"start":9922.638,"end":9937.074,"text":"那你們用二倍金趕快先動啊什麼能動的先動嘛因為你知道早一天開工就早一天完工嘛那因為它淹水是什麼時間我們永遠不知道啊另外我也想說要麻煩你們一個點就是"},{"start":9937.974,"end":9957.447,"text":"副主委啊 請你也要告訴陳奕德主委因為他當過政委嘛那他也親自主持過很多這個蘇澳溪分融工程的會議是不是請他要趕快動起來因為不然我去現場看啦我去現場看一堆人在跟我抱怨都是同樣一件事情"},{"start":9958.167,"end":9981.754,"text":"說等了這麼久然後去年也淹今年也淹明年會不會再淹沒有人知道那問題是他們每一個人家裡很慘然後那個院長去只是說那個淹什麼一公尺還多少的我們就補助八萬塊然後問題是八萬塊能幹嘛你裝潢都不夠付了所以我有幾個想法就是我要求三件事情"},{"start":9983.697,"end":9999.368,"text":"我先講一下二倍金的部分為什麼我一直跟你們說二倍金因為我看到中央政府的二倍金怎麼用他用在幹嘛你知道他用在大罷免可以用二倍金然後看到監察委員出國用二倍金不是經費的問題啦"},{"start":10001.049,"end":10022.099,"text":"這個結果好那該用的不用你們經濟部也搞了一個無人化創新科技實驗室也是用二倍晶好那所以很多東西你們都認為反正連大罷免都可以用二倍晶那我們認為一些東西能夠趕快做的你們卻認為不需要所以我跟你講最後我跟你說我們要求三件事情就是說我們希望就你"},{"start":10022.759,"end":10048.46,"text":"我們希望說不要一直再拖下去啦對 我們沒有拖不要一直再拖下去啦這不是經費的問題經費已經有了也不要跟我們講說什麼什麼要綁到什麼四年一千億那邊去啦我覺得很多東西緩不濟急而且人命的 我跟你講部長 你再講再多人民不會甩你啦人民只看有沒有死人啦有家有沒有淹水啦你在那邊跟他講一大堆五四三的沒有人會理你嘛對不對 因為你今天"},{"start":10049.841,"end":10068.513,"text":"我覺得陳金德政委叫了幾個政治人物在當地講了一堆就你覺得人民理他嗎人民只說那為什麼我家還在煙他們只在意這個點為什麼十幾年前就提出來的工程到今天還看不到樣子人民只在乎這個點你跟人民講再多"},{"start":10069.153,"end":10088.86,"text":"沒有人理你就像你剛剛回覆其他人的答詢一樣你說我們這個台積電出去這個是什麼樣這個技術怎麼樣沒有人會甩你我只知道護國神山被搬走那第二個我還是希望工程能夠趕快做因為我跟你講趕快做不要拖因為這個非常的重要"},{"start":10090.06,"end":10115.01,"text":"政府現在還有錢可以用不管是救災 不管是工程其實我們還有二倍金可以用那依據這個預算法的規定這個時候用其實是沒有問題因為我們提出來之後又有一堆無腦的網軍就跑來罵說二倍金可以濫用嗎不對喔 依據預算法二倍金在遇到國家正式的緊急狀況就可以用我們國家不能這樣對美採購武器 對美投資"},{"start":10116.21,"end":10136.248,"text":"幾千億上兆 照單全收但對於我們的國民對於我們的年金斤斤計較不能這樣子嘛我們政府不能這樣對待我們的人民啊你拿到的錢都是人民繳稅的好 那拜託土地徵收 用地土地徵收還有漁民的補償現在已經在進行"},{"start":10137.609,"end":10166.021,"text":"那如果有需要冬日二倍金的部分請問一下你們會不會在本週就行文給行政院沒有 還不需要好 你認為不需要那所有這些相關的救災這個都不用嘛你的意思就是這樣相關的工程 相關救災目前都沒有緊急狀況都不需要用到也沒有資金的缺口你的意思是這樣吧好 謝謝部長這樣我了解了好 謝謝這種話你也敢講接下來我們請賴司保委員請做詢問"},{"start":10173.809,"end":10178.533,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部長還有中油的董事長請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":10184.69,"end":10210.202,"text":"我請教一下部長 你是中友的老闆喔這個有關於周冠講的說中友的高層啊說 講的說中友很有錢這個綠營黨你們鑑別怎麼樣 進度怎麼樣外界一直關心這一句話這句話對中友 對經濟部很傷啊中友很有錢 意思就是可以亂花錢到底有沒有這句話"},{"start":10211.806,"end":10236.588,"text":"沒有 那個是週刊上的對啊 你們要check一下你要盡快 已經幾天了啊到現在我都沒有答案有沒有有沒有我們會做調查你這樣一直拖對不對 你要已經幾天了已經幾天了 出來幾天了沒有啦 這個勝鋒調查還是要有一段時間比較務實啊還可以"},{"start":10238.35,"end":10254.561,"text":"還要一個月吼就是12月中一直是這樣子調查一個錄音帶的真偽有沒有這個錄音帶這個不知道就是要調查你還有沒有錄音帶都不知道還在調查當中中委要不要講一下 董事長"},{"start":10255.802,"end":10280.067,"text":"這個是週刊的報導說有一個錄音檔那我們會透過一些用行政調查嘛 政風調查想辦法能夠取得這個錄音檔拿到沒有目前沒有啊這個很簡單 那就跟週刊講一下啊要給我們啦 靠批文給我們就好啊週刊好像他有沒有 我們也不知道他也是記者去聽到這個錄音檔寫出來的"},{"start":10283.422,"end":10306.574,"text":"你的意思是記者論嚇死掉了我也不知道 所以我說我們要調查好 第二個我們來看部長 川普有再講一遍說台灣搶走了或者偷走了美國的晶片生意讓美國覺得很丟臉這句話我記得他選舉的時候就講了"},{"start":10311.887,"end":10332.216,"text":"當總統 報講了幾次他一直對這個事情耿耿於懷你要不要做一些評論報告委員 我覺得台灣的半導體產業在全世界裡面生態體系是重要不可或缺的角色而且台灣的半導體的效力對全世界的貢獻非常非常大"},{"start":10333.171,"end":10343.961,"text":"就是說 你要去對川普講啊川普他是對美國人講 對全世界講 他是美國總統對不對 這個講對台灣很傷餒對台灣很傷餒 你難道對啊 你們講人家聽不到啊 我們在這裡講聽不到啊我們國家小啊 他聽不到啊"},{"start":10358.404,"end":10377.776,"text":"不然你忽略了你你怎麼講你沒用他繼續講沒有我想全世界相繼續講好像台灣是小偷一樣他們都理解到這一點啊對人家還是認為我們是小偷這個你還很大聲的說我們不能接受你可以接受嗎"},{"start":10379.586,"end":10395.353,"text":"我還是覺得不是 你可以接受你可以接受川普講的說我們是美國的精配小偷你接受嗎台灣半導體對全世界的貢獻真的非常大你接不接受我們會有大問題而且台灣發展半導體已經40多年了你不要一直像錄音帶一直講"},{"start":10396.013,"end":10416.748,"text":"你接不接受這一句話你看起來你接受這樣子喔所以你講其他53你接不接受美國的總統川普說台灣是偷走美國晶片的小偷你同意嗎很多的技術都是我們自己發展出來的你要講你要大聲講你大聲也不敢講你說我不同意這對喔你是經濟部長欸你這話都不敢講這代表是有偷喔我們有偷喔"},{"start":10426.194,"end":10433.398,"text":"怎麼會這樣子呢已經講了一次兩次三次一直講一直講請經濟部的工部長你講你我不接受川普這種講法可以嗎你可以講嗎"},{"start":10444.871,"end":10462.769,"text":"臺灣的技術還是自己很多發展出來可能 我對你很失望這樣做經濟部長一點肩膀都沒有人家給你站成這樣這個對川普已經講了N次了其實其實你應該那個後面講 這是我講的講這個話"},{"start":10467.389,"end":10495.383,"text":"來提高台灣去美國投資的正當性因為你都從我這裡投了所以你要回到這裡投資不只3千5百億最好4千億最好5千5百億請問那個數字出來了嗎3千5到5千5這個對不對這個數字對不對報告委員這個對不對我們半導體去美國投資是因為他有訂單上的需求而且對於公司是好的"},{"start":10496.144,"end":10500.568,"text":"對國家好啦 你說這個我都聽不懂啦行動詞我就問你3500到5500關稅的談判說要台灣投資3500到5500這一句話對不對啦沒有啦 這個還在談判當中啊這個我沒有辦法comment"},{"start":10514.356,"end":10537.515,"text":"媒體都嚇到這樣 都說已經確定了啊三千五到四千五啊我沒有確定啊 還沒有確定我指揮更高是不是啊還沒有確定你意思是不只這樣子啦部長 人家跟你講到這樣 跟你站到這樣這樣當著美國人的面前講台灣是偷美國金品的小偷你都不敢說 我不同意這句話"},{"start":10538.416,"end":10564.63,"text":"你也是這樣沒肩膀要做保證第二個他這個其實他這個相轉五件他再講一遍就是所以下一句話要來美國投資就是這樣金額就是三千五到五千五故事是這樣子部長這個東西不要不要這樣好像好像貴孫子一樣噴到美國好像貴孫子一樣我都不敢講謝謝"},{"start":10568.784,"end":10593.724,"text":"謝謝我們賴世保委員謝謝部長謝謝董事長我們接下來請圖軒基委員好謝謝主席那請我們忠祐董事長請忠祐方董事長"},{"start":10597.7,"end":10612.624,"text":"土偉好好 董事長那之前媒體接連在11月10號跟11月17號兩次有質疑我們第三天然氣接收站的工程弊端的問題11月10號是針對第二期"},{"start":10614.505,"end":10623.609,"text":"我們外推工程的部分那認為從94億元暴增到253億元11月17號是針對我們一期的主體工程部分報導認為評選的時間花超過4個月對於漫長的時間讓廠商是不是有得知價格在做設計的空間那針對以上兩點我們中油是不是針對這一些部分"},{"start":10644.258,"end":10673.46,"text":"认为程序是一切合法吗是 报告委首先针对11月10号这个部分所谓报价从94暴增到253亿这样的一个报道呢在公司来讲已经做了内部的一个调查从来没有出现过94亿或者是讲120亿或者是150亿这个数字在公司里面第一手的"},{"start":10675.247,"end":10681.369,"text":"這個資料就是238.4億那麼238.4億去做公開的閱覽以及做後續的一些處理從頭到尾就238.4億經過廠商詢價以後最後再把這個預算數調整到253億是最終的一個所以沒有經費暴漲的暴增的問題沒有 沒有"},{"start":10699.835,"end":10728.326,"text":"那針對一期的主體工程那它是因為中間卡著環評才延宕嗎是 這邊所提到的就是說評選時間漫長141天這個應該指的是一期的時候呢在第三次公告那麼公告之後呢到最後的一個決標的時間過長所質疑的是這一點這點我做說明第三次公告之後呢開了標以後呢"},{"start":10729.486,"end":10745.916,"text":"公告之後因為環評的關係所以在我們公司對外所做的環評承諾陸陸續續有做一些調整因此在這個招標公告上就去做修正那麼一修正的話那個等標其實就要拉長"},{"start":10747.403,"end":10769.737,"text":"主要的原因在這裡所以其實已經做過調查所以照這樣來講媒體的報導其實是不實的對 報導是不實的那所以這調查已經出來那媒體報導不實那中郵針對這部分要不要跟媒體來提告主要是現在最重點的我想應該應該關心的就是說到底這個事實的真相是什麼"},{"start":10771.35,"end":10790.066,"text":"那如果媒體確實他沒有經過詳細調查這報導不實對中油如果有影響的話我們當然要提告所以中油會提告嘛是是是那就計畫會提告目前還沒提告是不是目前就是重點是在於這個事實是什麼先要把它調查清楚"},{"start":10791.104,"end":10803.952,"text":"好 所以如果媒體報導不實中郵會提出告訴是的 是的好 那還有針對這一部分所以我們了解我們目前三接的總工程經費是965億元嘛對不對是的 是的"},{"start":10807.034,"end":10825.194,"text":"那針對我們三接有所謂的地方工程經費1%的回饋也就是依照台灣中油公司木林的工作要點第二點第三項做規範那所以我們當初是說733億所以回饋是"},{"start":10829.482,"end":10855.002,"text":"7億3千多萬那可是照這樣子來講現在是965億那是不是我們針對木林的補助這個經費是不是少編列了這個也會相對的增加會相對的增加什麼時候會提出增加會提出增加 它是跟你的直接工程費用對啊 那你現在已經確定是965億對對 當然要增加那這一次我們有編列嗎"},{"start":10856.252,"end":10883.581,"text":"有 原來的660億的時候呢在這個地方公益建設所編的是8.8億那麼經過的預算調整變成965億以後呢那麼在地方公益建設部分編列是11.3億那是今年度編列了嗎分年編列分年編列他要跟你的工程進度的所以現在總共是編列多少 木林的經費"},{"start":10886.175,"end":10910.035,"text":"不是 到今年嘛是不是累積編列是不是是不是問我會後再提供資料給我好 所以我剛聽董事長講總共會10億多是不是對 11.8所以我們目前是有就是會編列到10億多對 然後逐年編列所以是有10億多的經費木林的經費對不對是好 那會後再給我詳細的資料好的好的好 謝謝"},{"start":10912.766,"end":10931.833,"text":"謝謝圖玄機委員請方董事長休息後回座謝謝我們接下來請王洪威委員好謝謝主席我請一下我們的拱部長請拱部長"},{"start":10942.005,"end":10962.118,"text":"好部長好今天我們經濟委員會安排的是針對中油的這個三接的二期工程有沒有弊案來做這個專案報告不過我想我今天可能還要請教一下就是我覺得這個事件我想國內外都非常的震驚就是我們的台積電"},{"start":10963.459,"end":10992.92,"text":"再次的发生包含技术机密跟营业机密可能被窃的事情刚才我在司法法治委员会询问法务部部长因为根据媒体报道我不晓得这个部长了解的情况是怎样就是说台积电还就是正在了解还没有就是要告发但是法务部高检署已经主动"},{"start":10993.46,"end":11014.369,"text":"要調查這個案子已經主動分案因為按照什麼違反一頁秘密法還有國安還有國安法國安法去主動偵辦那我非常肯定我非常肯定因為我們的護國神山而且這是2奈米以下的這些技術有可能被竊滋事體大好那我另外請教一下部長因為這位羅維仁副總"},{"start":11019.051,"end":11034.313,"text":"那他後來在9月份也容認我們的公研院的院士嘛對不對公研院院士那當然這個案子還在調查之中那這個院士好像也是台積電去推薦的對不對"},{"start":11036.115,"end":11060.286,"text":"台積電推薦好那我想請問如果現在這個羅為仁院士他可能涉及這個偷竊這個台積電的相關的機密那請問一下這個時候我們要不要考慮暫停或者撤銷他的公研院士身份會不會這個"},{"start":11063.854,"end":11083.139,"text":"我們再來跟公務員院討論一下委員提到我們就來考慮因為現在他的案件現在算是初步在調查當中也許到某一個一段程度你現在所了解的這麼大的案子你所了解現在台積電的進度是怎麼樣他們還沒有進行告發嗎"},{"start":11085.06,"end":11112.272,"text":"因為現在主要是您剛才提到高檢署它現在因為它是按照國安法來辦因為國安法是可以公訴主動來調查就經濟部來講完全會配合所以還在這個階段至於公研院院士你們也會跟公研院來討論如果案件比較明朗的情況之下更為明朗的時候必須要做處理"},{"start":11113.032,"end":11137.026,"text":"是不是那另外就是台積電這個事件他不是第一次不是第一次因為之前日商的東京威力科創也涉及也涉及有這個竊取台積電的機密那這個是台積電主動去告發提出去告發高檢署高檢署那麼他制裁分署也在辦"},{"start":11138.368,"end":11149.024,"text":"那我想請問一下台積電的機密一而再的被竊取我想這個當然是有關於是公司的內部問題"},{"start":11150.916,"end":11172.888,"text":"但是這個部分我們的政府作為主管機關有沒有一些可以著力點譬如說現在也是傳出來說因為他退休之後立刻去到美國英特爾任職那這裡面台積電就沒有給他簽什麼競業條款那這裡有沒有公司治理的漏洞有沒有"},{"start":11173.832,"end":11190.332,"text":"報告委員是不是有簽這個競業條款這個我們還要查證當中那一個說法是他是有簽的可能那有簽他可以再立刻轉去另外一家半導體公司任職理論上是不可以的應該不可以對 理論上是不可以"},{"start":11190.592,"end":11216.548,"text":"所以我們也會鼓勵台積電如果他有簽競業條款而他可以就是去英特爾認知然後還有涉及竊取機密我們是不是應該鼓勵台積電一定要告啊這個怎麼能不告呢因為高檢署已經主動調查了我想台積電現在應該是配合這個高檢署的調查那我們經濟部也會配合"},{"start":11217.228,"end":11235.481,"text":"我覺得這件事情真的是滋事體大真的滋事體大因為這是在短短的時間內這短短 這個被冬季威力涉嫌竊取也是在今年夏天的事情怎麼還不到半年立刻又爆發另外一件"},{"start":11236.521,"end":11262.111,"text":"所以我想也請經濟部能夠密切注意然後協助台積電好不好像我今天是真的非常肯定法部立刻採取行動我覺得這是很正確的不要說我還要等什麼台積電也沒有告發等等之類的好不好好 謝謝謝謝王宏威委員請公務長休息回座 謝謝我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":11277.453,"end":11299.883,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是先請工程會今天是副主委請我們工程會副主委陳偉強陳副主委謝謝副主委副主委從丹納斯颱風到現在我多次的跟工程會建議現在政府的工程的人才"},{"start":11301.192,"end":11319.5,"text":"人才荒啊你的禁用方式不管是錄取那或者是留任基本上都是非常的慘那我直接列一個數據就是說你看一下整個這幾年來工程類的缺額從1400、1700到114年變2000土木工程的缺額從700到966到今年是1111人"},{"start":11328.544,"end":11348.694,"text":"那報考的人數逐年減少那表示說現在普遍的工程人員認為說第一個民間的薪資遠大於在公務機關第二個在公務機關畢竟他要擔負的可能就是土地罪或者是一些刑責讓他核銷上這工程人員都會有所顧忌所以他認為說"},{"start":11349.654,"end":11365.386,"text":"平白白是這樣我到民間去可能會比較好的一個選項那造成很多政府的公共工程基本上要發包的問題更何況後續的執行那這樣的一個現象我想請教副主委到底工程會有沒有正式這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":11367.645,"end":11381.052,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那工程會一直跟考試院還有那個行政人事總處有意識到這個問題所以我們有經過還蠻密集的一些研商"},{"start":11382.213,"end":11400.062,"text":"那目前這個情況特別嚴重的是在比較偏遠的地區或者是這個行政層級越低的它越難那我們也有去有你們有注意到行政層級低嘛對不對行政層級越低的尤其是在公所端公所端建設課沒半人這個人就沒了"},{"start":11402.063,"end":11406.426,"text":"所以目前我們當然第一個當然是有有這個留任獎金的一個這個那另外特別針對偏遠"},{"start":11419.854,"end":11441.906,"text":"或是比較鄉鎮級的我們是逐步要透過跟大學有關土木工程系的部分來合作譬如說我們會首先在花蓮地區跟這個國立藍大學在那邊設置開設這個專業的班就是讓一些譬如說有志將來要從事"},{"start":11443.828,"end":11457.119,"text":"政府的工作或者現在已經是月聘雇人員那麼給他一些工程方面的專業還有以及採購的證照讓他經過一定的學分以後他取得了專業的證照以後那麼"},{"start":11459.02,"end":11475.078,"text":"就可以進入到公部門比較合適的位置來擔任目前是應該在我們100今年度的預算我們有編列那我們也希望大院可以支持那我們就可以循這個模式"},{"start":11475.558,"end":11491.905,"text":"副主委那我聽到這個重點就是說你們會跟大學端來合作啦那需求機關有可能是公所有可能是地方政府有可能是中央政府的各機關他可能會需求機關嘛對不對那到底誰要來跟這個大學來做對接"},{"start":11492.665,"end":11515.687,"text":"是由工程會來統一來主導然後由你們來分配還是自己需求機關自己來跟大學對接他去找他要的人才我想要聽一下原則上我們當然不排斥個別機關去找但我想個別機關去找大學恐怕有一點困難所以目前是由工程會出面來整合那我們可不可以探求這個機關的需求"},{"start":11516.388,"end":11529.316,"text":"那我們出面來跟大學那機關是報需求給你們喔我們會去調查 沒錯你們會來調查那嘉義應該也會調查吧我們嘉義我們就是因為是事辦的性質啦那事辦怎麼我們跟他怎麼事辦我們這次丹納斯颱風真的很慘耶我們好幾個公所齁"},{"start":11534.359,"end":11538.582,"text":"因為他的工程太多了 因為你看那個汙損啊然後汙損的認定啦 很多災損然後又要辦那些小型工程啊例如那個爐啊 行道樹啦 電火條啦 要刷啦這都工程的發包耶 沒人做耶"},{"start":11553.581,"end":11581.455,"text":"所以這個當然就是說人才是一件事情另外在採購之外部主委我建議工程會啦把這一次丹納斯颱風的受災區作為優先事項的地方因為我們如果你們有一個多元禁用的一個方案嘛對不對那這樣的方案我們現在確實我們需要這樣的一個人才那又卡到了我事實上我對考試院這一次在核定的這一次植物列等的一個核定我是看得很不開心為什麼"},{"start":11583.276,"end":11605.976,"text":"植物列等因公好我們會針對二級機關以上然後把植物列等提高就是說可能在我們縣政府縣的層級他當到科長有可能會讓他到九職等當然待遇的提升可能會讓這一些工程人才願意留在機關這是好事但是偏偏這樣他又排斥了三級機關"},{"start":11608.238,"end":11637.147,"text":"啊排斥的三級官代表什麼代表說我公所有一個人訓練會成功啊他可能我就好啊我要跑去百威我要跑來中庸我跑去管政府或是我如果假的我就跑去台南那裡的公所因為伯伯苦公所他們那個他們的獵團就比我還高伯伯在公所他們叫區公所啊我們叫做鄉鎮市公所我們的資歷都比較低所以我覺得整個中央的思考一個模式都是輕六都 重六都"},{"start":11638.174,"end":11644.224,"text":"都落土比較好啊我們這個肥料剛好就在台灣打造喔很多人走沒在台灣重視"},{"start":11646.647,"end":11671.598,"text":"這些問題當時我們有收集到各地方政府的意見我們有回饋給考試院啦那考試院當然他有整體人事文官制度的一些考量當然啦 因為你們沒辦法代表考試院嘛所以這意見我們也是特別你跟考試院說然後我也會去跟考試院再發飆一下因為他這樣的一個決定下去你知道對我們是雪上加霜耶我們人就已經要潘老了"},{"start":11672.618,"end":11691.129,"text":"結果他這個植物業等你下去我們公署的人一定又跑掉了我們有感受到這個困境所以工程會也希望能夠積極的協助來處理這個問題那委員的意見我們會帶回去積極來處理好 那第二個事實上我知道最近政府採購法"},{"start":11692.507,"end":11718.59,"text":"有在推針對這個三家以上合格的廠商投標那這件事有可能會透過修法來做一個調整那這個修法的調整事實上原因主要也是希望推動整個公務機關在辦理工程的一個效率在辦理效率當然剛才第一人的問題我剛才已經說了第二制度面的問題但是這樣的一個制度為了效率但是可能你們要去思考就是說"},{"start":11719.11,"end":11734.905,"text":"那未來工程的品質是否妥當這件事我覺得這一定要注意喔是當然有信心嗎我們不是單純把三家才能開標拿掉原則上我們是先建立其他的配套措施當年"},{"start":11735.492,"end":11757.794,"text":"我想一開始政府採購這個立法的過程本來是沒有三家是因為到大院的時候大院也是考慮到會不會有其他的因為資訊當時不夠充分所以列了一個三家才能開標可是這20幾年來實施的結果這樣三家導致的管制成本太高了而且現在已經資訊相對的"},{"start":11759.535,"end":11776.898,"text":"比較公開那管道也比較多而且我們現在配套的修法也會強制機關在大院的立法案的審議通過預算以後大概都知道要辦理什麼採購會先做一個年初的這個公告事實上副主委"},{"start":11777.719,"end":11793.769,"text":"副主委我們都知道啦縱使以前規定三家那個三家一直是形式上啦因為真的想要去投標的人對他來說三家也不是什麼大問題啦還是機關拜託他找三家而已啊所以這個是形式所以"},{"start":11794.369,"end":11811.662,"text":"我們當然是雖然說整個法律就是說去形式化讓實質上的效果是最重要那實質的效果的監督就是要靠你們你要幹得好 工廠的品質要出來雖然說好 可能修掉三家後以後變成單家投標 單家得標"},{"start":11812.643,"end":11834.375,"text":"但是這一家廠商是否他的品質是夠的他做出來的工程有夠嗎這就是要看你們的監督的能力到底是夠不夠我們有連結到後面整個停權就會加嚴好那我們也是期待當然這樣的一個修法我們是基本上大方向我們是支持的謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":11842.216,"end":11858.928,"text":"接下來我們中午不休息到今天議程結束 謝謝接下來我們請高精素美委員高精素美高精素美委員不在現場請羅志強委員羅志強羅志強委員不在現場請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在現場"},{"start":11859.708,"end":11875.597,"text":"请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在现场请林楚英委员林楚英林楚英委员不在现场请叶元之委员叶元之委员叶元之委员不在现场好我们登记发言的委员除了不在场之外呢其余委员均与"},{"start":11876.657,"end":11895.871,"text":"發言完畢 那詢答結束那委員楊瓊英 呂玉玲 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆的部分請相關單位一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會那本日議程所列議程處理完畢謝謝大家 現在休息 謝謝"},{"start":11914.453,"end":11916.314,"text":"發文不要發文了看看怎麼樣"},{"start":11942.739,"end":11945.692,"text":"因為更今天沒有"}]}},{"id":"165630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d11c9499aa7323b2807119a7747a4c5c6c90886039ce1be0fdec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:34:20 - 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謝謝渣偉那我們是不是先請這一次的行政工程委員會的主委陳金德主委委員好"},{"start":34.706,"end":55.755,"text":"主委今天在討論這個是馬太安的特別預算不過因為我選區嘉義我想說還是借這種機會我來問一下丹納斯的狀況丹納斯主委你是指揮官所以有一些狀況我想要透過這次質詢再做一個確認"},{"start":58.556,"end":72.786,"text":"就是說我們這一次當然是颱風對於污損的一個補助那大概把它分為幾個層級就是所謂6坪以下或是6坪以上20坪以上以下這樣子一個標準"},{"start":74.687,"end":97.746,"text":"當時是說如果到了六坪以上的話就會有補助五萬那二十坪以上補助十萬那六坪以下原本是沒有那地方政府像我們嘉義縣政府就是補助五千這沒有錯那後來在九月五號的時候因為針對六坪以下的沒有這件事情大概有些民怨所以後來行政院加碼六坪以下補助一萬"},{"start":98.467,"end":117.333,"text":"那在這個兩個禮拜前我們卓榮泰院長也在我們大家一起的爭取之下大家後又針對不管坪數只要你是自行修繕的就再加碼兩萬塊這個就不管坪數就是六坪以下也有六坪以上也有二十坪以上"},{"start":117.853,"end":146.652,"text":"也有這樣的一個兩萬那我這樣來統整起來所以就是如果以六坪以下的那經過地方政府我們嘉義縣政府補助五千九月五號的時候補助一萬那在卓院長最近又公告在內政部也在十一月七號已經發文給地方政府就是再兩萬自行修繕所以只要有自行修繕的污損這一次丹納斯颱風就可以得到補助三萬五千塊這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":148.554,"end":156.06,"text":"那五千是嘉義縣政府台南市政府它本身二十坪以下的它是發一萬"},{"start":158.967,"end":178.898,"text":"對那還有其中有弱勢戶也有特別在發弱勢戶有在增加對沒有錯有在增加1萬有在加碼那我剛講的是說那如果非弱勢戶就一般戶而言那就是行政院就是3萬跟地方政府就是3萬包括縣政府的5千如果縣政府加5千就是3萬5對那所以因為"},{"start":183.34,"end":195.246,"text":"我們這是陸續公布我們怎麼去協助這些災民所以災民本身是混亂的因為20平方米不是20平20平方米以下的就6平20平方米以下如果說以嘉義縣政府5000的話那這當中會有一個問題"},{"start":204.185,"end":219.977,"text":"有人可能屋頂破損了18平方米那18平方米是很大還是很大還是很大所以跟那個1平方米是差很多是所以的確那一部分人多而且很多人是的確沒有受到這個補償的就是救助的所以才會"},{"start":221.398,"end":235.727,"text":"20平方米下的一般戶因為弱勢戶已經都有了所以一般戶再加2萬那後來因為這裡面有的是自行修繕沒有透過這個前進指揮所來媒合的所以全部都再補助2萬自行修繕就2萬嘛對對"},{"start":238.929,"end":258.458,"text":"對那再加上剛剛講的原本的一萬就是三萬嘛對這沒有錯嘛好那再跟指揮官再確認一點啦那因為原本啦原本如果是六平米以下就是二十米以下二十平方米以下的他們可能會覺得說那只有地方政府的五千所以他就沒有去申請"},{"start":259.451,"end":261.153,"text":"所以他的申請期限我們有展延到11月31號也就是這個月底 沒有錯吧"},{"start":275.921,"end":294.693,"text":"這個斬年是指加碼的部分照理說一開始申請的20平方米以下縣市政府都已經有名冊了那個申請就按照那個名冊去加碼補發就可以了那是按照名冊啊但是有些是原本沒申請的"},{"start":295.859,"end":313.771,"text":"地方政府因为就是要去现场去看到底有没有破损那你刚才讲的可能是加一线有些人五千太少了那就没有去申请我想那个加一线他自己可以决定还可以决定我们是说11月31号他可以自己决定那如果受理申请了五千那行政院当然再加码三万如果原本就有五千那就是最单纯的就直接入账就可以了"},{"start":323.797,"end":341.611,"text":"那我現在是有因為有不有些申請是說原本因為他認為只有五千所以他就沒有去申請那就趕快補申請那補申請就可以太好了對那要感謝根據縣市政府的名冊來補發好那我在最後一分鐘我再請教一下那就是石棉瓦的問題這一次我們因為"},{"start":343.893,"end":359.189,"text":"屋頂的損害大部分是石棉瓦石棉瓦的清潤費用它的後端處理費用非常的貴這個價格很高所以處理石棉瓦大概是一個現在我們整個地方在做這個環境清理的時候是一個很大的問題那現在說石棉瓦可能好像"},{"start":366.136,"end":393.985,"text":"現在的清運能量已經不足可能是預算的問題還是後端處理能量的不足這件事不知道但是我們想要說至少我們嘉義跟台南都一樣吧就是說石棉瓦不會說台南優先處理我們嘉義後處理應該沒有這樣吧環境部的石棉瓦是補助縣市政府那就是去化一噸是四萬五清運是五千所以一噸就要五萬"},{"start":394.665,"end":412.684,"text":"那環境部大概已經使用了大概十幾萬的那看起來還不足以把這一次嘉義縣跟台南市的Semenor全部處理完對因為主委數量真的非常的多預算不足行政會會補足啦但是有一個問題就是終端的去化是有其量能限制好"},{"start":414.446,"end":443.508,"text":"我們還是希望說這個石棉瓦這處理可以加速啦因為現在它就是等於太空包把它放在這個我們根據丹納斯風災的相關預算會再補給環境部做必要的來處理這個石棉瓦好 這樣真的要拜託啦因為我們現在災後整個整個清潔環境的清潔大家都很急啦都希望趕快把它恢復到災害前面這個真的是要靠中央預算就打完即棋啦 好不好"},{"start":444.093,"end":444.113,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d135f4e9b936255a657e24dce8f91e16ee90886039ce1be0fdce8271213e3fc7bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:25:49 - 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楊潔芸發言本席邀請司法院法務部調查局行政院打詐指揮中心警政署金管會好 請這些機關的代表到台前 謝謝之所以請大家一起來"},{"start":31.581,"end":51.437,"text":"因為到目前為止 民眾對於打炸 他看不到成果而且坊間還有一句話說 越打越炸這一句話對我們國家政府來講 是一個很大的私信於民本席也不希望有這樣的聲音出來"},{"start":52.438,"end":77.487,"text":"所以今天之所以請大家一起上來到底誰可以負責能夠怎樣去調整那所以就針對太極集團爆發的這個案子我們看到檢調單位開始從11月份去搜索47處那拘捕了這些人扣押的部分包括房屋現金還有這個車子呢大概是45.3億左右這個金額"},{"start":81.208,"end":100.011,"text":"甚至這個空殼公司也進駐到101如果不是美方來通報我們根本還沒有看到啟動的一個調查動作所以在整個事件當中認為是非常的荒腔走板"},{"start":100.732,"end":115.085,"text":"所以我代替民眾問了一句話政府在哪裡所有的單位都在這裡我要請問政府到底在哪裡因為金管系統事前的預警可以說是完全的失能那主動調查詐欺洗錢的單位又完全的失職所以人民認為我花了這麼多錢"},{"start":126.209,"end":153.199,"text":"我們的打炸中心到底在針對整個這個洗房的體系打炸體系他認為怎麼都失效了怎麼都失能了在這樣的情況之下呢因為本席看到你們的報告金管會說52次提出預警的一個通報52次提出預警的通報給調二局"},{"start":153.999,"end":174.451,"text":"那到底這個問題環節出在哪裡所以本期要請教各位太子集團這一次政府後知後覺抓不出來還要靠國外的人來通報那麼我們的機制問題到底出在哪裡請做說明來哪一位"},{"start":181.712,"end":207.322,"text":"報委員 其實這一案子就是說以我們調查局跟警政署其實早有掌握不然的話不可能在美方它執行的兩週後我們就能夠馬上去查扣到這些不動產大家想也知道這麼龐大的資產我們怎麼可能兩個禮拜突然間能夠去掌握到這一定是事先經過很長的一段時間的修正掌握"},{"start":207.802,"end":223.764,"text":"那這中間最主要的功勞就是這些銀行他們歷年來的這些通報透過他們的這些通報我們在做加值的分析26件以後其實我們早就已經有分送相關的執法機關包含我們的國際友方"},{"start":224.545,"end":250.936,"text":"所以這是一個整個跨國性的犯罪以我們台灣來講的話我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際是同步在執行這樣的一個案件這裡面包含了美國也是在10月14號執行英國也是然後我們在11月4號然後接著還有香港 新加坡大家都是在這個階段裡面同步去執行的所以"},{"start":252.156,"end":264.645,"text":"其實不能說是我們在這個部分有什麼失靈的部分其實這個金管會跟相關的金融機構的這些申報其實發揮了非常大的功能我必須要為他們講一句話"},{"start":266.223,"end":294.883,"text":"這要在你所說的說明你認為你們盡了很大的力才能夠有這樣的一個成效接下來本席要請教民間的一個認知跟我們被詐的數字跟剛剛所說的似乎是有不同調那接下來本席要請教連行政院長都已經出生"},{"start":297.004,"end":313.111,"text":"你們抓了法務部15萬人交保外界給予的認知這麼重大的數字你們認為要怎麼樣告訴民眾這樣子的一個決策是對還是不對 來"},{"start":316.867,"end":340.885,"text":"這個案件有拘捕了24名那我們就是涉案情節的一個不同像那個核心幹部我們有生押了台北地檢署有生押了5個核心幹部那反面那部分有裁押了4位獲准一位圖信的被告他是交保30萬元那這部分我們有看到高院是駁回了所以核心幹部這一部分有4個押"},{"start":341.805,"end":354.937,"text":"四個羈押獲准一個是被法官改交保三十萬那另外其餘的被告那部分我們按涉案的情節就有不同的強制准包括交保限制那個那個可控等等的其他的一個作為那"},{"start":356.345,"end":375.724,"text":"那這個太子縣什麼你特助那10萬交保那個是以涉案的情節涉案的情節以及他的職位的涉案情節等等的因素來做一個交保的一個處分並不是有什麼中放的如果有中放的話那核心幹部那個有生要或者獲得法院的一個支持謝謝你的說明"},{"start":377.659,"end":391.732,"text":"連行政院長都震怒當行政院長震怒的時候也代表了人民的聲音那請教各單位你們有給行政院長去說明嗎你們有表示你們的立場嗎有沒有哪一個單位"},{"start":397.041,"end":413.346,"text":"連行政院長都震怒因為這個是必須跨機關當然相關同仁是很辛苦但是我覺得這個政府到底出了什麼事你們每一個人都說我很努力而且我做得很好了可是你的行政院長震怒啊"},{"start":415.718,"end":443.701,"text":"這怎麼回事呢是行政院長亂震怒還是怎麼回事還是我們的機制在整個跨機關裡頭的領域我們有怎麼樣的精進角度我想這個就是打炸這個是我們全民的心聲那我們打炸團隊是全民的心聲啊因為全民已經心聲恐懼啊所以我們打炸的也一往成情那個居了查獲那麼多的一個財產那我們希望"},{"start":444.341,"end":463.937,"text":"那個希望就是整個一個再溯源再一個追查那我想這部分也請委員能夠了解說我們這個打炸的團隊是非常用心而且是有成果其實現在的案件量跟整個一個採取量都有下降的一個趨勢當然這個氣焰還是它那個像炸斷式變形蟲一樣它還是不斷的一個演化"},{"start":465.419,"end":492.581,"text":"就不斷的演化那這部分呢 表示說它為什麼要演化就是說它被我們才有績效它還要再想辦法弄一個新的一個你現在所討論的是整個過程但是民眾要看的是結果我怎麼樣能夠安全所以本席告訴你說如果加大管控的一個力道它能有效的來主炸來打炸我相信人民它在一定程度的這個氛圍上面它是接受的"},{"start":493.141,"end":506.446,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我們真的不希望連行政院長都已經震怒有人說大尾你不敢抓你只有老民稍微他這個多一點像小戶的像忽編打的像網拍的稍微他多一點進出或者是"},{"start":513.269,"end":516.71,"text":"好久沒有用的這個帳號馬上就給他來作為預防性的一個凍結等等等我想這些是民眾的心聲我們代表著民眾來告訴政府民眾的心聲他們的希望是什麼所以我給你一個結論喔也就是我們從整個通報在我們的這個"},{"start":538.155,"end":558.026,"text":"情報分析以及跨部會的一個協作到國際資產的一個追蹤本席認為我們都還有很大的一個精進空間因為最重要的是他是整個跨部會整個跨部會這應當要能夠有所精進作為你認為呢"},{"start":559.499,"end":585.218,"text":"這時候我們一直在做一個打造都要做一個合作那我們跑步市懲詐的主宰機關我們就從個案的辦理去檢視看看我們各個機關的全管制司可以再做一個測盡的作為這個就對了因為到底是你的工具不夠到底是你的決策沒有辦法及時這個就是本席所說的整個盡進方案"},{"start":585.638,"end":601.211,"text":"就是一個滾動式的一個調整所以本席認為也有人在研擬我們在整個大型的洗錢詐騙企業那能夠進行行政制裁快速的金融制裁並且立即凍結詐騙這個資金的一個法規你認為呢"},{"start":605.835,"end":616.68,"text":"我們都一直在隨時在滾動式的檢討我們希望這個是不是支持這樣的一個方向這個我們本來就在做可能可以更迅速你的法規還不夠啊所以才導致現在的這個狀況啊"},{"start":620.003,"end":648.101,"text":"這個我們一直在做一直在做滾動式的一個精進的作為你將本席所具體建議的剛剛所說的行政制裁快速金融制裁以及凍結詐騙資金的一個法規你去研擬到你目前在進行當中的你認為有哪一些精進可以讓我們更有效能這是民眾要支持政府好好的來幫助民眾這才是對的一個政策跟決策 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是的好那再來我想昨天我還看有一個問題院長說超過100公分會補助10萬但這10萬對我去看那個家裡面損壞的程度那10萬塊連零頭都不夠那我們不能跟那個災民說恭喜你家淹到1公尺所以你符合我們不能這個態度去面對他們所以我們今天還要很積極的去面對這個問題我想10萬塊的這個部分"},{"start":252.626,"end":279.328,"text":"院長講了一個話說超過50到99公分要證實有財損然後再加碼3萬塊超過100公分補助2萬塊並證實有財損加碼8萬塊我想請問一下證實有財損這個東西是什麼意思我翻了一下我國的法規我只有在另外一個部的財政部裡面有看到如果財產證明損失"},{"start":281.449,"end":304.075,"text":"他要要求減稅等等的扣除額等等這個的時候他必須去負擔災害現場毀棄物品的照片警察消防里長村長的證明受損財產的取得憑證財產修理這些估價單等等的如果我們換到以這個如果說財產損失因為我想雖然不同部會"},{"start":304.935,"end":319.734,"text":"但是法規的用語都應該是一致的如果我們看了一下財政部的這個所謂的財損的定義那用在我們這邊的話變成你要要求災民要先拍一堆家裡泡水前後的照片也要寫損失"},{"start":322.217,"end":350.376,"text":"洗衣機多少錢沙發多少冰箱多少還要付發票還要估價單可能還要配合公所到場去勘查我覺得這個在整災民耶加上了要證明有財損這個東西在整災民所以我不知道院長是口誤還是怎麼樣但是我知道的一件就是我國院長如果講出來底下都會照單全收所以我要麻煩部長你要注意這件事情因為在我們看一下經濟部對於淹水"},{"start":352.457,"end":359.041,"text":"淹水救助的那個規定經濟部有一個水災災害救助總類級標準他們也是只有簡單的"},{"start":360.851,"end":389.367,"text":"得檢據佐證及現居居住證明之文件經濟部也只有這樣財政部有那種什麼那個財損是什麼有非常嚴格的規定那我不知道內政部你們在運用到這一塊的時候在要執行院長的交代的時候我不知道你們會怎麼做因為如果依照院長的說法災損補助分成三個部分30到49公分補助一萬塊他沒有特別要求要做什麼"},{"start":389.907,"end":404.183,"text":"但是从50到99公分的时候还有超过100公分的时候他要求提出所谓的财产损失财损的证明那如果依照我国公部门对于财产损失证明的要求就我刚刚讲的"},{"start":404.804,"end":432.006,"text":"你還要拿發票你還要拿維修的資料你還要拿一些前後泡水的資料甚至還要林里長的證明等等這一堆東西都要的情況下這不是在保護他們這是在整災民更何況有非常多的災民其實他們是很辛苦的甚至是老人家不好意思主席因為這跟我們依然有很大的關係給我最後30秒所以我還是希望一件事情他們已經受災了他們已經辛苦了我們"},{"start":433.277,"end":452.756,"text":"父母官應該要竭盡所能的去幫助他們而且這些老人家你很難要求他們有沒有存這些發票那我再跟部長就是最後這個報告一件事情櫃部有一位高階的公務員跟我說 給我一個建議他說"},{"start":453.917,"end":466.73,"text":"拜託這些救災的事情可不可以不要讓人民跨部會的去找協助家庭損害找內政部農作損害找農業部店家貸款找經濟部減稅找財政部"},{"start":469.292,"end":493.065,"text":"一個災民搞到最後他已經昏了我不知道找誰所以貴部的那位高階公務員跟我說因為內政部是災害防治的主管機關是不是可以請你們做一戰式的服務能夠讓人民來申請一次由你們來協助跟各部之間協調來幫助這些災民用最簡化的行政效率去來對他們協助"},{"start":494.306,"end":505.442,"text":"不要因為你們總是號稱這AI內閣嘛就現在我們人民都BI啊就變成從A變B啊大家都BI不能這樣子齁所以是不是部長這部分你們能不能承諾做到"},{"start":508.171,"end":531.661,"text":"可不可以 這部分那個 喂我們就是請部長進書書面我簡單回應好嗎 針對說一戰式的服務好 詳細的說書書面報告好不好好 那麻煩你們 報告 報告昭偉跟委員第一個我們會建議行政院的這是在這個重寬處理他的救助標準但是最後到哪一個部會來做一戰式的主導可能還要請行政院來做決定好嗎因為內政部是災害防治的主管機關我們是應變 對所以我才會說 是不是"},{"start":535.082,"end":556.45,"text":"對 但是我們還是以行政院的命令為主我不是幫宜蘭徵特權啦我只是說幫宜蘭人了解我們宜蘭人的補助有沒有時間表什麼時候入站還有能不能以戰式的服務那我希望不要有下一個不要再遇到下一個颱風又再來大量災害不要說下一個晏曬湖土石流或下一個暴雨去侵害我們的人民好不好麻煩部長多幫忙好 謝謝部長好 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主席 謝謝接下來我也不知道要請誰上來請問如果行政院長要問說現在打炸打得怎麼樣來做個報告誰會上場報告就自己出來好 請打炸中心馬指揮官好 指揮官你是負責報告嗎對 我負責報告那你報告就報告儀表板是不是"},{"start":36.83,"end":64.668,"text":"報委員不是 其實我們有針對那個打仗行動綱領2.0我們有列管所有部會的績效好 那你們就是報告統計結果也不只 因為跟委員報我們主要是看整個詐騙案它發展的趨勢我知道 因為我看到你們中心的編制你們中心可以開放參觀嗎我們可以 我們只有10個人 很小沒辦法參觀啦 10個人裡面有什麼偉大的設備嗎只有辦公桌跟電腦"},{"start":66.075,"end":86.993,"text":"所以這個打炸中心聽起來就是一個類似匯報的單位我們是幕僚單位就是定期然後各部會帶著自己的資訊來大家匯報一下而且我們會預先部署很多政策那我請問一下中華民國如果要找到一個負責打炸的單位你就應該找誰"},{"start":89.01,"end":116.416,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們分散在好幾個部會所以我剛問說行政院長要問這件事情的時候到底誰要負責報告跟委員報告 我們會負責會診但是如果有特定的議題的話會找特定的部會報告那就代表沒有專責機構沒有錯因為我看你們的人員編制裡頭那些都是各單位派來的那派來的那些人都懂打詐嗎"},{"start":117.961,"end":137.595,"text":"報委 我們都是請部會派最好的人過來我在地方也當過局長我們市府都有一些很高層級的中心 委員會 編組各局處要派人去 都派那個層級很高的然後基本上都沒什麼效果"},{"start":138.578,"end":165.556,"text":"我們有面談 所以我們跟委員會面談以後好啦 我只是提醒你們說中華民國真的要找到一個專責負責打炸的這個單位現在沒有啦是就是這個在院裡頭可能要討論一下因為國際上應該很多國家也有這種比較先進的設備啦 人員啦這一些編制比較好打炸啦好 謝謝你謝謝委員好 現在我們請這個警政署這個署長委員好"},{"start":168.21,"end":177.234,"text":"這個基層的員警啊我在這個今年我也好像也問過警政署啊我們的偵查隊啊有人專門在每天都在辦這個詐騙"},{"start":181.69,"end":189.493,"text":"大家抽頭 案件都多 民眾不惜 說我又去用詐騙了那我們的員警也披靡本命 因為人力編織的問題披靡本命我請問一下 我們這些員警在處理這種詐騙案件的時候 他們到底有沒有受過訓練"},{"start":200.953,"end":223.368,"text":"有 包委員 那我們對於員警的偵查犯罪那都會做定期的一個教育跟訓練那會做這樣的一個現行詐欺的整個相關的案例還有相關的這個手法那這些詐騙的這個整個的一個技巧 技術"},{"start":225.461,"end":240.637,"text":"我那些都不定時會去做那上上課老師是誰老師是有師資包括有刑事局包括有大隊的刑警大隊的偵查隊的偵查大隊的這些的一個專精的這些的偵查大隊他們學這個的老師是誰"},{"start":243.688,"end":257.232,"text":"他這個老師應該有一些也是也有我們業界的相關的這個知識的這些的你不覺得賣相的比較賣相的沒有啦 都賣相的 譬如講現在大學都我請問一下啦現在最主要在於科技偵查的部分我請問一下 警察大學裡頭的老師因為你警察大學都教出來以後當警察嘛"},{"start":266.045,"end":290.179,"text":"警察大學的教授副教授 助理教授現在有多少老師專門在研究詐騙目前在學校裡面大概有四位有做專精的研究詐騙中華民國四位警察大學教授還有業界外的外聘人員因為第一線交出來的警察我請問一下這些課都開在什麼系"},{"start":291.906,"end":316.942,"text":"那多看看刑事科系刑事科的刑事科我剛查那個相關的科系的老師列出來的專長喔都沒有人有詐騙的所以有些他剛才都做了一半轉過來的啦有的是有的就是說學校裡面的當然他是對這方面有做研究啊我沒有外聘的這個師資我知道外聘的外聘的跟裡面的來做兼任的老師啦對對兼任的老師"},{"start":321.545,"end":328.155,"text":"研究一下啦 這裡警察大學啊學校研究一下 跟教保討論一下既然這詐騙啊 現在是新興的這個犯罪這個裡面老師啦 課程幫我們這個員警啊不只警察大學啦 包括我們的警專"},{"start":338.283,"end":340.846,"text":"在這個基層員警上課在學校上課就要學一些新的啦不然我們的員警查詐騙的技術遠遠不如詐騙集團我問報告的 我們行事局都是會調全國的各縣市的"},{"start":357.083,"end":361.127,"text":"來到中央來做訓練來做訓練訓練完之後再回去當種植的球員都是會做這樣不斷的對科技偵查的一個這樣的一個訓練可是對於偵查隊來講他們的基隆派來做詐騙的真好有時候他就說這個要上那個要上啦回去再辦案啦"},{"start":376.696,"end":381.241,"text":"大家都很累 人力沒那麼多所以我們共同努力對啦 若是說這個學校裡面就已經有到這幾分了他們就會就課程多開一點學生選修也可以那往這個方向可能以後再查這些案子的時候轉捲一點不然你喔"},{"start":397.165,"end":400.989,"text":"外企員派來調查這個他也每天很苦惱的我接著很嚴謹的跟我說 哇這個大約一半的時間都在辦詐騙因為量多嘛 量多啦所以接的案件每一個的量 剛剛有講大概60%大概都在偵辦詐騙這一塊大概跟這個"},{"start":415.766,"end":432.896,"text":"警察大學或警專 跟教育部 大家討論一下看老師 師資的朋友 能夠給你們爭奪給 聘歸的跟專業的老師專門在教這個的啦我們的研究強化啦對 研究強化啦 我想這應該是沒人會反對啦好 接下來我請問一下 這個這應該是金管會銀行局啦 銀行局 好"},{"start":442.35,"end":468.655,"text":"我們現在這個詐騙的這個金流或者是洗錢的金流現在對你們來說你們都是一種比較被動的預警被動 對你們發現有異常通報跟委員報告 我們會主動的去相關的金流我們會主動偵測那如果發現有異常金流我們都會主動的好 那你們是單筆異常還是這家公司很異常"},{"start":469.81,"end":481.928,"text":"我們會從金流來看那公司本身我們會審查他的一些背景條件我跟你們記一下呢這間公司啊 假設每個月都差不多七百萬的進出通常他要出一條五百萬的 你會預計嗎"},{"start":484.319,"end":513.258,"text":"就過去實務上來講這個就是有出現異常的情況那異常銀行他會先做初步的篩選他不會說有跳出來異常他就馬上申報因為這麼多的量他會癱瘓到了我們洗錢防治處他的這個效能所以銀行他會基本的篩選過認為有值得申報的這種情資他才會去做申報那因為這些案子會就是這些洗錢案會越來越多所以相關的這些"},{"start":514.199,"end":537.971,"text":"程序上也都已經完成這些通報可是還是讓這些人得逞那這些案子你們應該去彙整要有一些比較新的這個作為才不會說記錄上我們有通報我們有通報後面後端那個就是後邊的偵查的作為我們已經通報因為對後面的檢察官或者這些偵查的作為的時候"},{"start":538.598,"end":557.675,"text":"他們也是按照你們的通報才有機會繼續往下查因為你們那一端是最陰暗這端是最快的只是說這個通報的機制按照過去的經驗包括在洗錢洗到各式各樣的硬幣或者各式各樣的這個幣幣的時候你們應該要有更積極的這樣因為這案件越來越多應該都有經驗那國際上大家怎麼洗的"},{"start":564.915,"end":579.24,"text":"在台灣怎麼洗的洗到哪裡洗到哪裡的這一些機制啊我是建議銀行局這邊要更加主動去改善啦不是說把事情做好而已因為對後面辦案的這個單位來說他也是接受你們的提醒嘛或者是通報他們才會有作為他不知道這個銀行那邊錢發生了什麼事嘛好這一塊再請你們這個努力啦好不好好那這個馬指揮官啊"},{"start":595.691,"end":620.339,"text":"你交代的事情你要處理 要不然高雄高雄縣長 總統說來報告一下打炸狀況你去你疑問三不知不喜可以表板都要幾件幾件 區市圖往下往上很有作為 說那個就不好說那個就老人 詐騙也是還在的高雄縣總統和縣長給你吐槽這句你又不能做什麼指揮官"},{"start":621.734,"end":650.348,"text":"我們總是要有一個你如果說今天你看委員要去參觀打詐中心是不是說10個人5隊多 現在一個比什麼棒這件事情跟院長我抱一下就是說要有一個看起來比較有性的東西嘛我們政府在打詐的東西比人家的詐騙集團都濃厚詐騙集團看你們辦公室看完回去就在笑我們會努力我們會努力這時候要把我們做 要打我們"},{"start":651.241,"end":679.818,"text":"誰被打還不知道我們部會的這個設備跟這些基本上都是夠的我們是做會診不是設備啦 設備要電腦而已我是說那個技術啦我相信國際上你們應該都有去參訪國際上能怎麼打炸那個專業單位回來跟院長報告一下說我們這個要怎麼樣改善不可以讓詐騙集團叫人家說在這邊打炸中心這個對面要跟我們打炸這樣好不好好 好 加油謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":682.675,"end":682.695,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d196c3fac9fac1c8297119a7747a4c5c6c90886039ce1be0fdb36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"12:10:23 - 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各位本院委員同仁還有各位列席官員大家好主席有請經濟部常務市長好 請經濟部賴市長"},{"start":17.253,"end":38.633,"text":"委員好市長好經濟部這次編列91億有85億是用來辦理馬太岸溪及花蓮溪水系河川系統性的治理但是不知道你們到底會不會傾聽當地民眾的心聲我是希望只要當地民眾有什麼請求或者是建議事項你們務必要放在心上"},{"start":39.614,"end":50.699,"text":"像是受到鳳凰颱風影響導致馬太安溪水位暴漲昨天18號有再一次的暴漲那溪水淹沒馬太安溪變道才剛修復的便橋就被沖斷了"},{"start":52.898,"end":73.495,"text":"沒有 這個當地村長其實很早以前就提醒了擔心溪水從這個溪邊堤防破口流進部落但是 這個貴單位完全沒有把居民的這些請求放在眼裡都覺得自己的專業判斷沒有錯但是連續遭遇大水不斷湧入部落的慘況"},{"start":74.696,"end":98.912,"text":"都歷歷在目你們也沒有辦法為你們的疏失來負責但是事實上就是居民的家園再一次的受到傷害所以這一次特別預算在治理馬太安溪這個溪水花蓮溪水河川系統未來會不會實際的具體的跟當地的村民或者居民一起討論這些他們的意見會不會"},{"start":105.256,"end":121.671,"text":"有關於未來的重建工作我們會水利署就會跟當地的民眾包括民間團體來傾聽他們的聲音那除此之外在這邊跟委員說明自從馬灘淹涉湖溢流然後造成下游光復"},{"start":123.055,"end":144.363,"text":"光復鄉很大的這個嚴重的一個災害我們看到極端事件它再來的的狀況跟損害是非常的複雜而且是劇烈的水利署在11天內完成了2860公尺原來的堤防的搶修而且下面還輸菌我就是要求麻煩你們一定要"},{"start":146.324,"end":174.545,"text":"與當地的我們這些里長 村民 村長跟他們做實際的討論了解當地實際的狀況不要因為憑藉著自己的專業認為說專業判斷才是對的那只有他們最了解當地的實際情況他們都是長期居住在當地的居民我們要勇於認錯要勇於認錯不要推卸責任不然的話這個只會讓災民更加的心寒那這一次的一個重建特別預算我只有一個請求就是要妥數的"},{"start":175.586,"end":192.855,"text":"把災民的家園妥數的重建完成以及災民有任何的需求請求的部分我們要求各部會都從寬認定並且在未來預防的工作上一定要做好萬全的準備千萬不要再發生事先已經有"},{"start":193.795,"end":214.628,"text":"地方的提醒但是我們的這些所屬機關卻一意的孤行造成這樣遺憾的事情再次的發生那再來我想請教署長就是我在次長我們在總質詢的時候有提過今年七月份的時候幾次的豪大雨造成烏日沙鹿地區的淹水的狀況"},{"start":215.889,"end":241.997,"text":"不知道你有沒有注意到但是因為對於這個烏日地區來講2008年卡梅基颱風這個風災重創那這個民眾都歷歷在目心中還是非常的害怕那我跟水利局台中市水利局相關單位都討論過那透過資料發現所有的抽水站就是沿著大理溪跟烏溪的這些抽水站蘇王碑抽水站武藏里抽水站中興抽水站等等"},{"start":243.257,"end":264.727,"text":"抽水量都很正常但是根據數據的發現不只是台中地區許多這些抽水站的設置現在有一個很大的問題需要經濟部來協調在未來防洪防範淹水的一個重點檢討就是說我們排水出去的河川淹水地區排水出去的河川它的水位比我們淹水區還高"},{"start":267.769,"end":282.86,"text":"這個部分不只是台中也不只是烏日剛剛有提到大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的情況我們總院長在總質詢的時候也做出了承諾所以說請經濟部水利署來做一個通盤的檢討針對全國所有的這些河川區域"},{"start":287.543,"end":315.588,"text":"排這個地勢較高的地區來做一個全面的檢討可不可以首先這幾個抽水站的部分都是中央來協助地方政府來建置的剛剛委員所提到的更讓我們體現到極端氣候的事件我們必須要系統性的來檢討院長也指示經濟部來責成水利署針對系統性的一個治水的工作做簡單性的一個評估也不只是只有這樣子因為我想我們"},{"start":316.528,"end":321.776,"text":"早期的一個規劃跟設計現在都需要做一個更全面的檢討包括"},{"start":323.398,"end":351.915,"text":"因為很多新興地區人口稠密的地區像高鐵特區像沙鹿的張子野海線的一些新興的一個一個社區的開闢那地面下的這些雨水下水道普及率覆蓋率偏低那加上你剛剛提到的極端氣候還有瞬間雨量造成突發性的淹水所以我們時常都看到我們這些人口稠密地區淹水的狀況雨水下水道是一個看不見的工程"},{"start":352.535,"end":370.485,"text":"但是我們人民走在路上看不到雨水下水道但是這是一個政府保護人民財產安全重要的建設所以我希望說經濟部啟動全面的通販檢討尤其是要協助我們各縣市地方政府來做一個全面的一個檢討跟計畫的提出好不好"},{"start":370.925,"end":388.025,"text":"那過去透過特別預算來協助地方政府我們也期待大院多支持希望你們把這件事放在心上好不好可以讓赤水的工作更加的順利以上好 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接下來請陳瑛委員發言麻煩請衛福部部長請衛福部時部長"},{"start":17.905,"end":43.787,"text":"陳委員好部長好我們今天討論這個家庭暴力防治法的修法那根據第五條的規定衛福部應該每四年對家庭暴力的問題防治現況成效與需求進行調查分析並且要定期公佈家庭暴力致死的人數各項補助及醫療支出的統計分析資料首先要請教最近一次的調查統計報告是哪一年公佈的"},{"start":44.734,"end":61.685,"text":"我們公布的是2020到2023年的這個報告那已經發布了所以是在哪一年公布了這個資料今年今年的幾月份"},{"start":64.656,"end":76.344,"text":"10月份10月份才好所以我們2025年的10月公佈公佈了這個發佈了這個2020年到2023年的交警暴力防防制的報告"},{"start":78.428,"end":97.284,"text":"這部法令在衛福部內部的這個主政單位是社家署還是保護司保護司保護司好那事實上呢這部法從87年開始實施以來好像這個家暴的這個通報人數每年都以七八千件的比例不斷的在增加那從109年149000件到113年179000件"},{"start":104.009,"end":125.502,"text":"然后大概有5成左右都是出自枕边人女性的部分约占了7成而且平均都是忍受了4.2年才会通报这样的结果其实令人是很惊讶的卫福部可不可以解释一下这个问题到底是出在什么样的地方是我们"},{"start":126.002,"end":136.296,"text":"这个法令规范不足呢还是执行面上的问题还是说因为在整个这个社会的这个眼镜当中大家的生活压力都太大了"},{"start":137.909,"end":164.222,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們有兩個啦一個是說流行病學的推估它的那個可能的這個黑數還有多少那以我們現在的通報量來講呢其實是還有黑數的所以如何去去這個讓就像委員所看到呃呈現的資料這個時間上還是拖了所以應該要有更多的這個宣導跟這個讓讓大家知道這個"},{"start":166.129,"end":185.052,"text":"怎样的事件呢其实是符合这个家报那他能够怎么样通报出来可以得到什么样的协助所以我们一直在社区推广这方面所以部长也觉得说那个发布的时间这个报告发布的时间其实是还真的是拖了因为我这样看也慢了将近整整两年"},{"start":185.973,"end":210.614,"text":"所以这个部分可能在发布的时程上你们需要再多压缩一些那再来因为各县市政府也就是这部法的地方主管机关那请教一下部长你们统计有没有针对县市别去分析县市别有有分县市别那再麻烦你们提供给我们好"},{"start":211.311,"end":226.411,"text":"因為我們這邊還沒看到就是我們內部有啦那可能在這個公開的報告上面沒有呈現吧你們也有嗎這在另外一個啦在另外一個在我們的統計處"},{"start":227.933,"end":257.291,"text":"這另外一個在另外不是這一本那有公佈嗎有有有那個是好那麻煩在資料提供給我那好那看起來你們有所掌握那你們可不可以講一下就是說在在這個城鄉差距是不是到底是人口比較擁擠生活壓力比較大的都會區呢家暴件數比較多呢還是說人口比較少的縣市那可能因為社工及保護人力比較不足家暴通報的案件就"},{"start":257.771,"end":274.666,"text":"反而比較高到底是怎麼樣的情況 你們可以講一下從數據上面看起來六都的數據是一定是高的那特別是像新北因為它的總人口數也多所以它的通報量幾乎佔我們的全國的六分之一也就是這麼高"},{"start":275.827,"end":300.792,"text":"相对的比较是偏乡的县市我会觉得一个是他的家庭支持的系统以及他的民情可能比较淳朴社区支持的系统例如说九里之间零里之间的系统比较紧密所以他的通报量相较的也就是他的施暴的状况是比较稳定的我们看起来是这个样子的"},{"start":301.092,"end":316.409,"text":"好 謝謝那其次因為你們的統計數字是以這個件數為單位那家暴往往再犯的可能是有的那所以衛福部能不能跟我們講一下說再犯的比例大概是多少"},{"start":318.821,"end":337.487,"text":"目前應該是說再通報就是再被通報已經進到我們的服務體系之後在服務當中又再被通報這種比例是也有一定的程度所以又再被通報你們的定義是就是再次受到家暴他又通報出來"},{"start":338.107,"end":350.443,"text":"好不會一件被受到家暴一次通報通報兩次確認一下再通報就是但是你們要用講好再通報好那"},{"start":352.745,"end":380.854,"text":"家暴法裡面有一項很重要的這個作為就是要對加害人實施這個處遇計劃也就是說對於加害人實施認知教育輔導輕職教育輔導心理輔導精神治療還有戒癮治療以及其他的這個輔導跟治療那請教一下部長一般這樣的計劃大概是時間多長有沒有強制性那每年加害人接受計劃的這個輔導大概有多少件多少比例"},{"start":382.064,"end":401.437,"text":"那个处愈的部分大概有戒饮戒治好这几个这个是比较我们比较重要的那这个我们过去的包含精神治疗包含戒饮治疗那么还有一些是像这个亲子辅导认知教育辅导等等这一些"},{"start":402.017,"end":429.904,"text":"那我们如果按照执行率来看就是应该这个以113年为例那么以这个认知辅导这边是最多大概占了85%那其次才是这个精神治疗的部分是17%好谢谢那再根据家庭暴力防治法为推动家庭暴力及性侵害的相关防治工作卫福部应设置基金目前你们基金的这个额度有多少"},{"start":432.204,"end":454.036,"text":"因為我們的基金大致上都是用公務預算從這個撥補的部分那因為有推動2.0就我們的山網加解我們一年大概20億左右好那地方縣市政府的防止家暴是要自己編列預算還是你們會補助那你那這個補助的預算"},{"start":455.171,"end":473.236,"text":"但每年怎麼樣的編列還是說透過這個基金去給縣市政府原則上地方也要有自己的自由財源他們要自己編預算那有一些計畫我們就會用計畫型補助例如社會安全網那我們的補助就按照行政院規定這個50%到90%這樣的比例按照他的財力分析"},{"start":478.157,"end":499.558,"text":"好 那另外在這部法59條有規定移民主管機關應辦理移民業務人員防止家庭暴力的在職教育那要請教你們就是為什麼移民業務人員也要接受防止家暴教育那他們在學完之後有相關的職權去針對移民推動家暴防制業務嗎"},{"start":501.139,"end":521.955,"text":"移民主軟器官他會接觸到我們的新住民甚至是移工那他也有可能在他的家庭或者是他的工作場所遭到僱主或遭到家人的不法侵犯所以他們有職權去推動這樣子的防治業務他基本上就是宣導還有敏感到要做通報好 那說到這裡重點來了"},{"start":524.807,"end":542.124,"text":"就是说当然我们也关心这个外籍的劳工朋友就我们了解了说如果都是这个双方都是外籍劳工那他们在台湾是不是他们在台湾其实是不能组家庭的"},{"start":543.745,"end":566.601,"text":"但是呢卻可以住在一起生養小孩這是他們能做的那萬一發生家暴受害的外籍勞工朋友可能他們到底能不能得到這部家庭暴力防治法的保護因為他們的小孩也有可能會被傷害我不知道你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":567.672,"end":589.399,"text":"對啊 只要對應該是都在我們的保護範圍啦都在您提的是移工嘛對 因為雙方都他們我講的是兩邊都是外籍的兩邊都是外籍的喔不是嫁給台灣人喔部長要不要想一下可以嗎"},{"start":591.974,"end":601.726,"text":"因為他們不能組家庭但是卻有家庭生活的事實共居的概念"},{"start":603.45,"end":626.978,"text":"對 但是因為這比較特別我想今天質詢的一個心得一個很重要的我覺得是大家疏漏的地方特別請稍微多給一點時間我趕快把它講完那因為我們一年在台灣就出生這樣800個這樣的孩子那這幾年下來你們有掌握累積了多少黑虎寶寶了嗎黑虎寶寶好像"},{"start":631.688,"end":650.724,"text":"這個部分我們會以後再提供對你們如果你們有所掌握那我剛剛提出來的就是一個很重要的一個問題了那因為這部家庭暴力防治法對於這個勞動主管機關只有規定被家暴後的職業訓練跟就業服務的部分那因為"},{"start":651.945,"end":677.461,"text":"勞動部紅部長他標榜一向都非常特別關心外籍勞工朋友的權益而且呢台大研究已經有發表這個家暴的發生會降低勞動參與率喔也就是會導致離開職場那勞動部對於這個職場僱主的暴力已經有安置的措施所以本席建議衛福部可能要找勞動部好好討論一下基於人道的立場協調一個部會可以去關注這個問題"},{"start":679.627,"end":706.465,"text":"那我们希望就是说今天点出这个部分看起来是有疏漏啦我们漏掉了这一块那我想就是说我们一起努力让我们就是国家的每一个家庭不要有人在黑暗中哭泣啦那我们就一起努力这样子谢谢委员对移工的受暴的部分我们来强化好谢谢谢谢陈寅委员发言"}]}},{"id":"165616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d194967031ee0df6ce7119a7747a4c5c6c45c75d439e1a44ec8e7165f4ad3413885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:47:30 - 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來 劉部長"},{"start":103.408,"end":122.862,"text":"你們現在我看到就是推來推去啦就是明明在院會答應的是竹偉寧啊你本人答應的啊那你現在說是內政部內政部又說不是他這個錢不會是工程會出啦就是說因為那整個是你內政部的整個不是你主持嗎相公所的相公所他有上他的資助"},{"start":124.003,"end":151.578,"text":"這個主委你整個特別預算有600億最後立法院還加碼給你你還有二倍金還有30億結果一個嘉義縣這麼財政困窘的地方一個異族鄉老人人口第一名的地方他那麼破落的一個中正堂在這次重建裡面要經費要提計劃結果工程會推給內政部內政部也說不是他那他真的是求助無門啊"},{"start":152.771,"end":179.247,"text":"工程會是中整整個特別預算啦是主管機關那這個主管機關底下有內政部有經濟部有農業部所以你認為這件事要找內政部對不對來 部長 劉部長是你要負責嗎報告王委員 委員關心多次啦那我們現在就是想辦法要來解決這個問題那剛剛那個陳主委講的沒有錯沒有在特別條例裡面我們想要從特別統籌分配款裡面來處理看看"},{"start":180.543,"end":184.725,"text":"好 所以你會積極來研議嗎因為它真的是很弱勢的一個鄉鎮也就是說如果說它是報災休那在特同的話可能不在特別預算的範圍內那你說你可以另外有計畫可以協助它嗎就是我剛剛跟您報告了就是用災休的方式來處理"},{"start":197.87,"end":213.226,"text":"因為他真的是很困窘 單一線財政很困難而且異族鄉又是老年人口我了解 所以我剛剛講說我們來解決問題那就用特等的方式 但是因為災修到底經費多少你大概什麼時候可以讓本席知道你們提出解決的方案 大概多久"},{"start":214.662,"end":237.595,"text":"報告委員是這樣通常各鄉鎮公所如果像這種40年以上房子會老舊不堪它本來就一定程序可以請縣政府請內政部來申請補助是重建我們特別條例處理的是災損不會包括整個重建如果說有哪裡需要修繕等等如果看起來是一個老舊的鄉公所"},{"start":241.017,"end":258.257,"text":"對 然後風災又再次受損 它是雙重的我是跟委員報告 如果重建的話要循這個內政的程序由內政部在本預算裡面來協助重建好 那你們兩位可不可以答覆我大概一個月之內可不可以提出一個如何解決的方案"},{"start":259.093,"end":265.737,"text":"我認為如果是重建的話就要循正常程序由嘉義縣政府或鄉公所提報內政部來看哪一年度的預算可以那個部長"},{"start":274.702,"end":296.932,"text":"這件事情你大概多久可以給一個解決的方案報告委員就是剛剛那個主委所提到的不管是一族鄉公所或者是嘉義縣政府我們建議是用災修除非說建物完全是不安全如果災修的話我們會盡快用特統的方式來處理因為到目前為止我們還沒有看到他們提報上來工業會刊多次我也了解其中的進度"},{"start":298.873,"end":325.39,"text":"所以現在聽起來是工程會推給內政部說重建就是你們你們說你們只願意災修不是 報告委員我想是這樣子重建確實比較曠日廢時那災修就是說但它真的很老舊了對 但是災修如果是無虞那個在建物安全無虞的狀況之下災修會比較快但你們上次去會堪你們也覺得應該是要重建我現在署長告訴我們的是可以走災修"},{"start":327.072,"end":349.87,"text":"但是如果重建會比較晚我想您大概了解整個的工程本來就是進度就是這樣子我希望這件事我們不要忽略最弱勢的地方下一頁我要問一個就是現在內政部的補助標準你們現在是取消活動中心取消消防隊的興建取消興建的避難建築這些你們通通都要取消嗎都不補助嗎因為加一線"},{"start":350.731,"end":372.258,"text":"他們梅山鄉有一個太平他們要建一個新的消防的封鎖然後內政部的回應說我們現在通通一律都不補助了有這回事嗎那你們補助社團最新的你們新增加的預算要補助民間的這些宗教組織等等你們增加了三億那這麼關鍵的消防設施你們說沒有錢"},{"start":373.078,"end":387.15,"text":"有這回事嗎我想不是這樣子第一個 前瞻預算已經結束了那前瞻預算如果結束的話有些補助當然就不見了那個這個是大家都了解的那消防的部分你們就都不補助了嗎一律所有的分所你們都沒有錢"},{"start":388.231,"end":410.331,"text":"各縣市一個都不會增第一個地方縣市政府他們提報上來我們是按照中央跟地方的這個補助的方案來處理沒有所謂的取消不取消的問題但是所以沒有全面取消嗎我要知道是沒有全面取消嗎對不對要看狀況因為那個委員所提的部分他是一個什麼建設活動中心這些我們不曉得真正的項目在哪裡所以我們可能要看狀況而定"},{"start":411.152,"end":431.48,"text":"我只是要確認部長你的原則並沒有取消所有的補助報告委員在我們內政部裡面不管是有計畫或者是沒有計畫或是任何其他的補助辦法我們的辦法到目前為止沒有更改過任何一個字所以可以提上來你們再評估吧如果立法院的前瞻預算取消我們當然就沒有啦這個我想委員非常的清楚"},{"start":431.84,"end":450.583,"text":"對啊 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我想剛剛其實很多委員都已經有在談到就是卓榮泰院長在上個星期的總諮詢過程當中基本上就罵錯人了對於太子集團裡面的其中的一名嫌犯"},{"start":41.164,"end":66.663,"text":"15萬據保這個輕放的這個事情那麼事實上這個應該是屬於檢察官的這個所做的這個據保裁定而不是法院那所以看起來就是卓榮泰院長很明顯啦有兩種情況啦第一個就是他不想承認這是檢察官自己做的所以就故意甩鍋給法院那另外一種情形呢就有可能就是對於這個本案根本還搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":68.044,"end":91.77,"text":"也許他只是看了新聞然後也沒有想看所以就自己就妄作判斷然後以為說這可能是法院侵犯那實際上是檢察官所做的這個拒保裁定那當然還有另外一種可能性就是卓榮泰院長根本就學法不經將檢察官的拒保處分誤認為說是法官所做的"},{"start":93.221,"end":111.099,"text":"由此可見其實卓榮透議院長他應該要把更多的心思放在國人更為關心的打仗議題上面尤其是現在發生了這種國際這麼重要的一個詐騙集團然後竟然他所在地是在台灣當然他的"},{"start":112.14,"end":132.652,"text":"所在地上剛剛有講是在柬埔寨可是他這個本身的裡面的很多這個成員都是在台灣然後而且在和平大院然後甚至這個太子集團辦公室還在101那麼這個部分的話真的就從上到下都應該要好好的去追追去這個偵辦這個案件不應該再輕放好那麼當然"},{"start":141.001,"end":145.579,"text":"卓榮泰院長 雖然他誤會了可是呢 我認為說法院"},{"start":147.216,"end":175.049,"text":"在這個案子裡面其實也是以30萬元交保相對於檢方的15萬也不過就是50部校百部所以事實上就是不管是檢察官和法官在這樣的案子當中那麼對於涉嫌詐欺案子的這個相關的這個犯罪嫌疑人他的確是有這個輕放的這樣的一個問題那麼我們看到其實法院"},{"start":176.601,"end":201.649,"text":"你們自己有在講說對於台北地檢署這個生鴨圖女另外就是台北地方法院有裁定30萬元交保然後你們說你們對於決定交保金額的時候會考量到犯罪嫌疑人或是被告所涉嫌犯的罪名犯罪情節輕重現有的證據及資歷等等因素以確保未來考慮到他的這個會不會確實到場"},{"start":204.65,"end":223.738,"text":"以及考量保釋金額能否對於犯罪嫌疑人或被告產生相當的心理壓力以防止其棄保潛逃所以也就是說法官在做相關的這個交保裁定的時候他會有種種的考慮的因素可是呢這個部分就讓我們感到"},{"start":226.82,"end":246.54,"text":"這個好奇那麼為什麼像是對於偽造文書這種很輕的罪兩年以下的這罪可是可以他的這個交保金可以到達上千萬那麼像太子集團這種詐騙案他可能涉及非常高的這個金額但是法院也只有30萬"},{"start":248.261,"end":260.614,"text":"就做交保裁定所以由此可見就是其實整個的法院的體系未來在法官的這個良心的或是拒保交保裁定的部分"},{"start":261.595,"end":282.518,"text":"應該刑事廳這裡要多跟法官們再多開一些協調聯席會議座談會那麼事實上真的法院的所做的這個判決或做的裁定他都會影響到國人對於司法的信賴本心認為說這個部分是很重要的好那麼"},{"start":284.409,"end":298.938,"text":"是不是接下來的話我先好兩位先請回因為我想這個部分的話就不請兩位回答了好那接下來我想請的是打乍指揮中心指揮官馬指揮官委員好"},{"start":306.704,"end":326.233,"text":"好 我想請問這個指揮官您擔任這個職務有多久了您是內政部次長然後接任打炸中心指揮官您擔任這個指揮官目前的這個從去年8月到現在從去年8月到現在請問打炸指揮中心是平均多久開一次會"},{"start":326.653,"end":341.933,"text":"我們每個星期都開會每個星期都開會而且不只一次會好 那麼所以對於太子集團的這個事情你們之前在打炸中心的會議上面曾經有討論過嗎報委 因為指揮中心我們是協調單位是幕僚單位所以我們要情資才能夠進行處理"},{"start":343.815,"end":357.077,"text":"所以你們一直都沒有情資這個情資部分我們也是在媒體上看到我們有進行討論然後也有跟相關的各部會去了解他的進度不過因為這個牽涉到國際的情資合作所以他不會到我們幕僚單位來"},{"start":358.979,"end":375.735,"text":"所以那打炸指揮中心看起來應該他這個層級很高可是你們卻一無所知那包含剛剛講的不管是金管會或是經濟部等等他們其實在過去都有多次的通報像這種有可疑的這個犯罪"},{"start":376.415,"end":393.211,"text":"集團的情資竟然打詐中心不知道這些事情我們不是偵查單位我們也不是司法警察單位我們是協調機關所以我們的工作是對可是你們總要知道一些事情一些案子那麼你們才有可能去協調我們是看趨勢不是看個案"},{"start":395.453,"end":417.444,"text":"所以你們打詐中興每週的開會只是看趨勢我們看趨勢然後協調各部會去進行整個包括我們在165的這個儀表板上的趨勢還有就是說我們從包括媒體上我們也會看到很多新型態的可能的這個未來的犯罪型態所以你們只是新聞分享打詐這個中興每個禮拜開的會就是看打那個這個什麼打詐儀表板"},{"start":423.687,"end":442.511,"text":"他的趨勢到底每個月他的收借案件還有進來各部會的資訊到我們手上但是還是跟委員強調太子集團的部分他是國際情資交換的問題他不是我們幕僚機關可以處理的我們的職責不一樣 謝謝委員"},{"start":448.712,"end":468.051,"text":"局長在你今天的報告裡面你有講嗎你們在108年的時候你們就陸陸續續收到銀行申報的相關金融資料然後110年的時候也開始展開調查等等那這些情資你們都沒有在打詐中心的會議上面有提報過嗎"},{"start":470.931,"end":497.603,"text":"那時候有沒有打炸中心我不清楚但是我們就是把它分析完以後我們會分送並且這些金融情報銀行申報進來的其實都是單筆的交易對 所以因為銀行在金融剛剛是金管處吧剛剛是經濟部的銀行局其實有講了他們過去有多次60幾次通報我現在只好奇那到底這個打炸指揮中心"},{"start":499.485,"end":513.968,"text":"扮演什麼角色就是對於這樣的事情我們認為黨大指揮中心還是指揮官他在指揮我們所有的各部會要針對重要的這個案子要進行去偵辦去調查結果看起來指揮官並不知道"},{"start":515.356,"end":542.965,"text":"到底各部會收了什麼樣的情節我想指揮官應該不會知道個案剛剛指揮官已經有說明了我們還是強調一次指揮中心我們並不針對個案來處理我們是系統性的處理所以像剛剛委員提到的我們不要講說這是個案而是當你發現就是有多比的這種金融通報的事件的時候這個基本上叫進去這個金融通報事件不會到指揮中心來因為他還是會在金管會的層級去處理"},{"start":544.105,"end":553.328,"text":"那到指揮中心的我們看到的是趨勢性的內容所以個案的部分也還有所謂洗錢防治辦公室我們現在來講就是本席現在就是因為呢對於打炸指揮中心他到底他的角色定位以及他能發揮什麼樣的功能本席感到質疑我也特別把你們的指揮中心的設置要點有找出來那你事實上你指揮中心的要點你啷啷啷寫了那麼多可是呢看起來現在呢從指揮官剛剛的口裡"},{"start":573.556,"end":584.267,"text":"我們知道不外乎就是收集輿情然後看看打詐疑表白對於整體的趨勢到底有沒有哪些重要的案子應該要偵辦你們也不會去討論我們不偵辦案子我們不偵辦案子我們是幕僚機關所以我們是處理政策性的問題掌握相關重要案件"},{"start":595.199,"end":609.471,"text":"但是因為這有些情資是有機敏性他不會到我們指揮中心來因為我們不是司法警察機關如果說你講說都是機敏性的話那由此可見是不是很多機關都包庇這不是包庇這是分工的問題好我們先來看一下這是分工的問題"},{"start":613.034,"end":630.348,"text":"打詐指揮中心事實上在行政院的處規程裡面也沒你們單位我們現在是臨時性任務編組所以就是臨時性任務編組所以你指揮官你也扮演不了什麼角色大家還對於行政院打詐指揮中心我們月底會改制為常態性任務編組"},{"start":631.93,"end":648.657,"text":"現在社會以為打詐指揮中心扮演重要角色但事實上我們很重要我們很重要但是我們的角色你們只是個臨時編組委員可能有一點誤解我們的角色任務性的編組都還不是好那接下來呢本席還要再繼續請教的是"},{"start":654.444,"end":675.231,"text":"那請指揮官可以先請回座那麼接下來我要談的就是想請問部長還有廳長不好意思 對其他的長官可以先請回座請問現在有沒有一個統一的聚寶材料基準我們剛剛講的"},{"start":677.799,"end":699.126,"text":"對於就是檢察官跟法官他們在圍這個拒保財糧的時候看起來都是自由心證有些案子很重要但是他的交保金額就很輕但有些看起來這個法定的這個罪行也不是很高的但是呢卻都是高額交保現在自己內部有沒有類似這種拒保財糧基準"},{"start":702.074,"end":717.648,"text":"或是你們有沒有一個檢討評量的一個機制事實上在前113年我們曾經過檢討過在有關於聚寶的金額要怎麼去核定或是一個做相當的指引具體化那我們有委託了研究案也開了一個相當的研討會"},{"start":718.829,"end":747.145,"text":"那與會的學者跟專家那給我們的回饋意見是說目前在世界各個立法例裡面就拒保金額的部分都沒有一個非常具體的數值性的標準什麼罪名要拒保多少錢大概這個部分比較難構成難建構這種具體性的拒保金額但是我們有一些拒保的相關的規範跟注意事項請法院做參考"},{"start":748.146,"end":774.177,"text":"那就如同剛剛委員所講的剛剛那幾個要注意省酌的相關事項是我們建議保證要做的 好的我了解了謝謝廳長 這個部長這邊呢應該是現在法務部檢察署這邊也沒有所謂的拒保財良基準嗎他那個這部分我們有那個檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件因行注意事項第40點有地下午站規定說保證基準其實他沒有一個很標準的一個數據但是他要考量到"},{"start":774.67,"end":803.322,"text":"他的犯的什麼罪他的犯罪的情節 危害 身分資歷犯罪者這四項就是我們知道現在行政機關對於裁罰 罰還他們都會自己訂定所謂的裁罰這罰還裁量基準我覺得這可以給很多的這個承辦的人員他們會知道碰到什麼樣的案子大概可以做什麼樣的這個裁罰裁量的這個標準那我本期認為這個事情也很重要"},{"start":804.759,"end":822.293,"text":"這也不會去影響到什麼法官或檢察官的自由性他看了那個標準之後至少可以跟他一個參考當然他還是可以再去考慮到其他的因素來做一個增減但是如果說你們現在沒有一個這樣的一個聚飽財長基準的話就很容易"},{"start":823.635,"end":840.914,"text":"犯了我們像現在看到的很多的問題有些民意大家認為說應該是重刑應該是重罪但是卻又是輕輕的放下然後交保金額也很低就會變成說整個的這個裁量標準是有很大的落差"},{"start":842.135,"end":869.349,"text":"那本期建議說你們這個部分應該要去積極的檢討要趕快去制定不要再去做什麼研究計畫了啦這個司法院法務部過去做了太多研究計畫但是都沒有落實也沒有用好那麼好那接下來就是要回到就是我們講的這個法務法務部的這個打詐禁車條款你們現在這個有提出詐房條例的修正案那麼有要增訂禁車條款作為法院良心的標準"},{"start":870.229,"end":889.324,"text":"那這個修法方向本身是予以肯定啦不過只是說在裡面有一些涉及到譬如說什麼叫做一般人通常生活的交通工具一般人通常生活的投資的程度或是一般人的消費一般人的生活的財務等等你們未來你們要怎麼樣去訂定去詮釋這個不確定法律概念"},{"start":894.81,"end":908.022,"text":"這部分是給法院的做一個裁量的一個量刑的一個參考是 所以回到就變成說刑事廳這邊未來司法院你們自己要去做一個量刑標準你們可以做得出來嗎"},{"start":912.287,"end":931.934,"text":"那個現在的50詐偽條例的現在的第50條修正草案他是把當成禁捨條款他是一種50計劃的量刑的裁量事項之一那這部分是由檢察官來舉證指出證明的方法來提供給法院來做參考包括他有沒有預約他的在還錢之前"},{"start":932.754,"end":954.405,"text":"他又過了怎樣的生活方式有沒有預約一般人為行為標準這是由檢察官來負責舉證來跟法院說明那法院根據檢察官的舉證來做相關的那看起來就這個事情上面就是檢查就是法務部跟法院都還沒有談清楚就法務部跟司法院什麼叫做一般人的生活他的"},{"start":955.686,"end":971.909,"text":"交通工具或它的投資或它的一般的消費未來要把它具體化不能夠用這種抽象的方式來體現否則降低出來是沒有意義的好那接下來最後我用一點時間來談邊形的問題剛剛吳四瑤委員其實一直在講就是說如果說台灣未來有可能實施邊形的話那會是人權走回頭路"},{"start":983.391,"end":997.761,"text":"而且那麼從他言下之意似乎是新加坡這個長期實施邊形似乎就是沒人權的國家請問實施邊形就是沒人權嗎可以這麼快的就下定論嗎請問部長您的看法實施邊形是不是就是沒人權"},{"start":1005.464,"end":1029.539,"text":"身體的一個很大的侵害請問坐牢難道不是嗎那是一個自由的問題所以對於自由的侵害跟對於身體的侵害你認為說是有差別的身體的一個外力的傷害那這個變形的確是有違反酷刑公約跟公正公約的一個很重大的疑慮"},{"start":1030.66,"end":1041.193,"text":"那像日本的話像委員你就是日本在台灣實行這個編寫那是以前那我想這是以前這個老草就已經會除掉了這個會除掉而且在"},{"start":1043.326,"end":1052.208,"text":"這個在1921年就已經廢除了廢除了因為剛剛講到有關於日本確實在日本這個證據台灣的時期裡面那麼當時呢他這個日本為了要加強對於殖民地的統治所以曾經對台灣及朝鮮都實施所謂的這個邊形那當然實施的時間不是很長大概幾年之後就廢除了不過就是說我要談的就是"},{"start":1071.092,"end":1097.708,"text":"今天看到法務部的報告還有各個機關的報告以及剛剛像是吳斯堯委員對於就說實施邊行是不是就是違反人權是不是就是沒有人道這個涉及到這樣子的一個刑罰的一個設計就是很明顯的違反人權我覺得你們必須要"},{"start":1099.069,"end":1124.72,"text":"講話要小心不可否認現在新加坡是全球治安最好的國家是全球的旅遊安全標準等等的大家評比最高的國家也沒有人認為說到新加坡會覺得不安全相反的新加坡它現在的治安它的秩序紀律還是成為很多國家的學習的榜樣"},{"start":1125.8,"end":1128.801,"text":"所以本席認為說你們在談到邊形的這個議題的時候基本上實在是過於輕率而且本席還要再講的就是說其實在2002年當時的陳定南部長就曾經率團出國考察新加坡的檢查及矯正等相關業務也就是包括新加坡的邊形制度"},{"start":1147.649,"end":1163.525,"text":"所以在陳定南部長那時候其實也不是說沒有考慮說未來台灣或許可以仿照新加坡實施邊形的情況更何況現在實施邊形似乎是民眾就在民調的這個裡面其實大家是"},{"start":1164.466,"end":1191.173,"text":"非常支持的70%的民眾都贊成台灣要引進鞭刑來處罰詐騙犯而且不只是詐騙犯未來像是兒虐或性侵等等這些都可以考慮所以本席建議法務部你們還是要去好好的去思考實施鞭刑的可能性刑事政策不能夠脫離國情不能脫離人民的法律情感"},{"start":1193.004,"end":1211.934,"text":"有沒有尊重人權有沒有違憲等等也不是法務部說的算但是呢本席認為說你們應該要好好的把新加坡這套邊形的制度那麼以及在他們當地人民對於這個邊形制度的支持等等這些意見都要研究分析清楚"},{"start":1213.263,"end":1231.901,"text":"畢竟現在是全國的民眾七成以上都很支持邊形而立法院那麼也有很多的委員認為在現在這個詐騙 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主委你好我們曾經是立法院的同事希望我們今天的對談能夠幫我們花蓮的尤其是萬榮鄉的族人"},{"start":44.673,"end":70.961,"text":"能够解决他们的困境好吗谢谢那个连续两次艳色湖重大灾害主委您也是我们重建特别条例的主管机干你是不是亲自有去过被洪水灌入的名利村河段来听取我们主任的意见我去过三次其中最长就这个一站式服务站在那边待了八天"},{"start":72.304,"end":99.239,"text":"好 那你看到了什么问题就是简短的说好吗 因为我们今天时间有限你觉得最重要的问题是什么就是两个字 就很严重了好 很严重我刚刚就已经说了工程会是灾害复建的主管机关我要请问您最近这四年我们政府在公寓预算投入所谓的灾后重建的合订经费个是多少"},{"start":99.799,"end":107.185,"text":"我列了大概四年您看一下因為我時間有限2021年79億2022年77億2023年120億2024年259億這個數字代表什麼主委因為這幾年剛好這是公務預算喔這幾年剛好都不在政府部門您看到這個數據以你的專業來說你看到了什麼"},{"start":125.433,"end":139.98,"text":"是不是連年災害特別的多了是逐漸增加好 謝謝然後我們看到這些災後重建的預算是每一年工程會針對大大小小的災害所核定的預算"},{"start":140.78,"end":157.171,"text":"那麼我們可以知道一般災害復建它主要是針對個別災害是由中央補助地方政府來執行對吧沒錯就是針對公共設施對那我們今天要審查的馬太安特別條例的預算"},{"start":158.892,"end":186.863,"text":"是因為馬太安溪的災害的規模非常的龐大而且他是複合性的災害類型所以呢在特別條例裡面我們讓公共工程委員會作為這個條例的主管機關重點是要來整合整個災區的訴求還有制定標準然後讓我們各個部會他在執行預算的時候能夠有所依據對不對主委對"},{"start":188.423,"end":206.622,"text":"好 那麼我現在要提到我的重點了當九月份光復爆發災情的時候當時呢 針對萬榮鄉名利村的堤防破口你們在報告裡面提到你們叫做開口堤"},{"start":207.663,"end":227.934,"text":"然而在7月份的時候我們的村長我們的鄉長在災防匯報的時候都提醒了水利署你們必須要去處理這件事情然而指揮官暨政委他也指示水利署你們要趕快的去處理"},{"start":229.174,"end":243.787,"text":"結果呢七月份到九月份兩個月過去了而我的名利村的村民得到的是什麼水淹家園水利署你們一時的疏忽造成了我們水利署長的道歉"},{"start":244.963,"end":273.551,"text":"我不僅僅要提這個 我更要提的是我們的政府對原鄉的河川的治理標準是不一樣的 也非常的不公平我們在都會區 當我們進入到河川的區域工程上的名稱是用所謂的水門 還有越堤道路可是在偏鄉 在我們原鄉你們設計用臨時性的太空包去堵住開口堤"},{"start":275.303,"end":291.859,"text":"標準兩套而生命兩等這對我們的族人來說是情何以看這事情啊馬太安的艷澀湖還在我相信在場的專業的人你們都清楚知道河床的水位因為"},{"start":293.22,"end":310.893,"text":"雨的大小它會升高多少這些是必須要經過專業的計算還有持續的追蹤然而潛在的災害風險也不斷的提醒在場的公部門的行政單位尤其是水利署"},{"start":312.216,"end":331.614,"text":"而你們該有所作為而不作為這造成了我名利村的村民財產的嚴重的損失然而國家賠償法第三條明定請大家聽一下公共設施管理有欠缺人民財產受損國家應該要負賠償的責任"},{"start":337.94,"end":355.973,"text":"萬榮鄉的鄉長 名利村的村長多次的告訴我們的政府然後中央指揮官也已經交辦你們要去處理了結果我們的執行單位草率的處置這就是明顯的管理欠缺"},{"start":356.914,"end":373.435,"text":"但是與其讓我們的災民要跟我們的政府打非常冗長的國賠我認為不如現在就由我們的政府主動來承擔讓我們一起在本條例有具體的補救方法可以嗎 主委"},{"start":374.645,"end":378.41,"text":"報告委員 因為萬榮鄉民意村的災損是延續馬太安溪相關的災損我了解啊 所以7月份的時候我們的鄉長 我們的村長就跟了紀政委"},{"start":389.386,"end":415.915,"text":"就說了必須要趕快去堵住那個缺口七月份談沒有做一直到九月份才去弄太空包以致造成了這麼大的嚴重所以他的相關衛助復原是比照原來光復鄉跟鳳林的少數幾個村的標準一樣進行衛助也就是如果有煙的主委你不要再跟我這邊在談這個我現在要跟你談的是更嚴重"},{"start":419.571,"end":448.53,"text":"召委麻煩再給我一點時間我必須要闡述一下我們災民的心聲還要釐清尤其我們今天下午就要審預算了好所以呢主委我的重點是在說與其讓我們的族人去打一個冗長的國賠倒不如現在已經有這個特別條例了我們能不能夠在這個特別條例裡面好好的聽好好的撫慰我們的災民的心情可以嗎"},{"start":449.23,"end":472.47,"text":"報告委員如果是國賠的話公務人要有疏失的責任我沒有跟你講國賠主委我說我們與其打國賠太冗長現在有特別條例我們好好的來談這件事情好不好這部分我請水利署還有經濟部次長來跟你說好我要跟你講不必他們說明您是主管機關我要跟你談的是第一件事情"},{"start":473.772,"end":498.139,"text":"也是我到現場去我們的族人還有災民我們的災民即使農民也是災民他跟我反映的有關原住民房舍的賠償應該要包含臨時性的建物所以呢我在這裡要求你們必須要從寬認定必須要加速辦理而從寬認定有幾個建議主委聽一下有三個第一個"},{"start":499.119,"end":521.733,"text":"有基礎資料的時候呢我們以戶籍為認定的依據然後第二個如果資料不足的我們就用航照圖來搭配相公所所謂的士林證明來做佐證第三個現地如果可以看到地基樑柱這些殘跡的我們就視為實際居住的證明可以嗎"},{"start":522.193,"end":538.734,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是針對居住的戶長進行相關的衛助那放得很寬只要實際居住有災損的證明就可以實際居住跟災損證明完全由村長可以認定好所以以上我講的這個方塊認定你都同意"},{"start":539.355,"end":563.463,"text":"就是我们有两个要件实际居住还有你刚刚有没有听我讲的啊主委有基础资料者以户籍认定依据如果资料不足的话用航照图搭配相公所士林证明佐证如果现地可以看得到地基良处的他也可以这个我们当然可以当作他有居住的事实甘有户籍但是我们是深"},{"start":563.903,"end":593.019,"text":"不要浪費我那麼多的時間主委現在我跟你講的都是非常具體你說OK就OK了嘛其實我們兩個談論是一樣的問題好嗎另外我們來談一下學校的部分災區的學校我們三讀通過的特別條例是包含了學校幼兒園的重建但是我們看到行政院這次在分配特別預算給各個部會去執行預算的時候沒有編給教育部教育部你可以上台來一下"},{"start":593.68,"end":609.102,"text":"然後所以讓我們的教育部我們學校他只能夠用自己的公務預算去支應主委你認為合理嗎這個是教育部主動表示他本預算可以處理像那個關乎工商等這些學校問題所以主動要求"},{"start":610.003,"end":633.615,"text":"不納入這個特別預算但是我們的三讀通過的特別條例有包含學校跟幼兒園的重建喔對 我們特別預算是根據特別條例來編的嘛那教育部他本身表示不需要嘛好 不需要所以他要用他的公務預算去他用他的公務預算主委你知道嗎今天沒有教育部來但是我要特別的強調的是公務預算它會影響到其他的"},{"start":634.395,"end":649.189,"text":"而我們說的特別條例它是指定災害的所以教育部這麼做是錯誤的我會再回到教育部要求他們並且我要要求主委這件事情您必須要思考繼續我要來談到的是公部門的橫向聯繫的重要性來 原民會的主委你可以上來有關原住民經濟產業還有部落農特產品的重建"},{"start":659.179,"end":676.47,"text":"原民會主責的是推廣但是呢他並不包含產業重建需要的設施設備然而我們經濟部的產發署經濟部也可以上來一下你們有關重建產業的設施設備你們是有補助的所以主委"},{"start":677.29,"end":701.725,"text":"本條例不受預算法第62條的規定也就是說各機關還有計畫或業務的科目你們是可以互相留用的所以主委還有我們的陳主委原民會跟經濟部應該成立跨部會推動工作小組來協助我們原住民的產業還有部落產業提供有效的診斷輔導還有修復設施的設備兩位主委同意嗎可以"},{"start":708.325,"end":723.56,"text":"可以有會協調 相關部會謝謝 以上我提到的這些還有接下來不好意思招募真的再給我一點時間因為我是災區的立法委員我也是原住民的立委因為有太多重要的事情需要在這邊理清楚"},{"start":724.281,"end":750.068,"text":"好以上我提的這幾個我請各全責機關用一個書面的完整的回覆給我另外我還有幾個要求第一個我希望我們的這個災後重建主管單位你們可以設置重建單一的服務窗口然後來整合所有部會的資源同時呢要優先進行我們災民的心理的諮商還有中長期的復原生計計劃可以嗎這一個"},{"start":752.625,"end":772.661,"text":"這方面都有編列相關預算好 第二個我只要是在我原住民地區請你們遵守原住民基本法涉及原住民21條諮商同意事項還有其他公務事項要你們實質來尊重部落會議的決議跟在地的知識可以嗎"},{"start":774.284,"end":799.613,"text":"原住民基本法會遵守就相關開發行為當然會要資商來第三個我希望資訊能夠透明化請提供特別預算還有我們公務預算的相關的分工還有規劃的期程以及進度並且要公告上網重點的事項每日要更新方便國會還有人民的監督這樣也可以嗎"},{"start":799.873,"end":814.18,"text":"我們會提供特別條例跟相關資訊最後我要講的是我的心聲花蓮從去年0403的地震到最近兩次的晏色湖的事件在這裡我要痛心的說民進黨政府"},{"start":815.373,"end":838.002,"text":"你們對於地震之後的地形變化九月颱風季節後艷澀湖的危機你們根本就沒有心要預防你們只知道大罷免然後一直沉溺於政治鬥爭政府這種對花蓮人民特別是我的原住民的族人生命財產的無視你們必須要負起全部的責任"},{"start":839.022,"end":865.379,"text":"也希望我們的政府尤其是民進黨的政府能夠在這一次的危機覺醒回到國事好好做事一起為這塊土地的人民好好做事我相信以上我提的這些全部都是全民的心聲回復到國政好好做事不要再政治惡鬥了吧謝謝好 謝謝高津素美委員"},{"start":869.372,"end":871.441,"text":"接下来我们请袁宽恒委员咨询"}]}},{"id":"165621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1375d075cb85c2e3d63294d83d43b212b90886039ce1be0fd2b4aab974ddd87285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:58:32 - 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謝謝召委 有請顧部長請顧部長部長午安"},{"start":12.176,"end":38.547,"text":"好 部長有關這個心理健康的這個相關議題在國軍工作環境的這種特殊性還有勤務日益繁重之下我們的官兵心理衛生的這個工作也應該受到這個高度的重視那我想先從這個初級發掘的階段來和部長您做討論那早期的這個發掘固然很重要但是在現實層面上預防始終難以這個落實"},{"start":40.548,"end":56.787,"text":"先前就有審計部的審核報告當中指出有158名的智商人員其中130名在案發前是沒有經過初級發掘的輔導也就是漏接率偏高的問題"},{"start":57.908,"end":84.194,"text":"當然我們也知道這個基層官兵的這個業務相當繁重可能很難去做到人人都是守門人的這個階段更不可能全部都靠我們輔導長來負責那在這個基層人力吃緊日常的這個業務又相當繁重的這種情況之下我想請教部長我們在這個初級的這個階段怎麼做到有效的發掘並且能夠及時的介入"},{"start":85.958,"end":108.217,"text":"我們所以在今年2月有實施一個尋求外部資源的一個心理健康照護方案那這樣子他就可以主動就是說他可能覺得跟部隊反應會有壓力那他尋求這個民間的資源那我們才會有這個328所的民間的諮商那他不需要有任何的轉介"},{"start":108.854,"end":125.133,"text":"那他自己也對他的隱私有所保障的情況下他是去尋求主動來行行諮商的一個協助那我想這個部分會讓他比較願意去在初步的階段就願意去"},{"start":125.934,"end":155.394,"text":"那後續如果說這個跟我們合作的機構他經過這樣來主動求助以後如果他發現這個是具有高風險的時候那再把這個高風險的部分轉移給到我們的地區心理衛生中心我們就可以直接來進行這個專業的處遇那這樣的話我想就可以把這些高風險的這個部分降到最低那另外有關初步他去尋求這個求助的部分他可以也維持他的隱私"},{"start":156.234,"end":175.919,"text":"那化解我們在初級化解預防的這一塊他可能會面臨的一些壓力或者是我們的部隊在這個部分的警覺不足的這方面的彌補這樣也就是透過跟民間合作嘛對對對 全球民間的資源對 民間資源合作那我們目前這個成效如何"},{"start":177.199,"end":192.098,"text":"我們因為是今年2月才開始到10月31號為止已經有過4860人次的這個去做然後自主約的比例是97%所以自主約的比例是蠻高的好那在這個報告當中我們有"},{"start":194.461,"end":216.192,"text":"這個提到說這個量表失策的部分那據我所知我們國防部從去年的6月要求除了部分單位因為這個執行任務受限之外其他的部隊目前都是使用這個依新守護這個APP來做失策那失策的頻率是每季配合我們戰演訓任務時機來實施在這個測驗結果會由APP系統來判讀"},{"start":224.196,"end":244.905,"text":"如果有重度情緒困擾的這個高風險人員我們就會用手機訊息來協助這個新府官和單位幹部來掌握那針對這個APP的使用我想了解的是我們從這個智商的案例往回推有多少是從量表能夠看出異常的"},{"start":245.445,"end":263.093,"text":"在今年發覺心理困擾的這個7749名的官兵當中又有多少是經由這個APP發出警訊讓我們能夠發現的那國安部對於這個心腹量表的失策效果如何檢討那這部分是請部長請要說明一下"},{"start":263.533,"end":279.706,"text":"它這個量表其實我們有分兩種委員提到這個是屬於APP的部分那APP的部分我們大概是由幹部來做那這個是提供一個官兵的一個一個心緒狀況的一個掌握"},{"start":279.946,"end":304.928,"text":"那經由APP的個案114年來看的話大概有大概4890大概近5000大概從這個地方可以看到有一些算是心緒有一些不穩需要介入輔導的一個狀態那另外其實還有一個一個量表的部分我們是在做年度體檢心理健康檢查的時候這個時候是由我們的"},{"start":306.05,"end":313.802,"text":"身心科醫師跟心理師還是公司去做做了量表之後還會做一些訪談這個部分菌疫局要不要補充一下"},{"start":316.662,"end":339.615,"text":"那軍事局為了補強在我們的初級跟第二級的心理的這些篩選所以利用我們每年國軍體檢所有的國軍志願役士兵的體檢都會增加一站叫心理健康專區會由精神科醫師或精神心理師跟社工師來做評估"},{"start":341.716,"end":350.043,"text":"那這樣的成效也是相當的好等於說這部隊沒有發掘的利用每年的體檢的時機也可以增加多一層的篩選這體檢的過程就先因為體檢每年都要做"},{"start":356.892,"end":384.735,"text":"那另外有關這個目前所執行的這個二級的介入輔導還有這個三級的專業處遇他所涉及的這個專業和權責有幾個問題想來請教部長我們現行這個國軍所進行的心理輔導是否有涉及到這個心理師的業務範疇那如果由非專業的這個心理師從事心理輔導甚至是心理諮商有沒有潛在的一個風險"},{"start":385.996,"end":394.216,"text":"那倘若這個心理諮商是屬於醫療行為部長我們是不是可以考慮由國防部體系下的這個軍醫局來負責"},{"start":395.989,"end":421.166,"text":"跟委員報告就是二級他只是輔導他沒有到達能夠心理治療的所以才會有三級三級的話就是包括了國軍醫院精神科醫師然後還有我們在桃園台中高雄花蓮的地區的心理衛生中心那這個幾個地區的人他就具有證照具有相關的證照那就可以做"},{"start":422.506,"end":448.411,"text":"專業的心理智商所以這個還是有區隔那從這次報告當中也有提到在今年我們官兵求助的這個樣態當中以這個新訓單位的人員比較明顯尤其是這個二兵還有哨衛級的這個軍官四支顯示我們新進的人員確實有心理照護的這個需求"},{"start":448.931,"end":470.203,"text":"那我們新進的官兵在融入部隊生活的過程中難免會遇到不適應的狀況這部分我想請教部長我們在對於新進人員尤其是一年期的義務役有沒有針對這些官兵的輔導工作進行加強目前各新訓單位的輔導量能是否充足"},{"start":472.017,"end":491.052,"text":"跟委員報告就是說醫務役入伍或者是任何新進人員的話我們就會分這個階段大概包括入伍一週內還有薪資報到的一到三個月內還有一個美季那就分別實施這個國軍的心理健康的一個品量表"},{"start":493.292,"end":508.426,"text":"現在就會來讓這個來來還有這個身心狀況量評量表還有檢視的健康量表然後這個分別來做那我們讓我們來了解這些行進人員的一個身心狀態都有確實在落實"},{"start":509.727,"end":536.372,"text":"那我們從這幾次我們台灣所發生的風災都有這個國軍我們官兵投入救災的第一線協助我們相關救援的這個任務那面對這個災區滿目瘡痍的景象必須做好充足的這個心理建設那在這個整個過程搶救完畢之後我們這些官兵我想我們也需要特別"},{"start":536.972,"end":553.375,"text":"留意的是避免他們的心理健康受到相關的影響那這個部分我想請教部長就是我們對於這個投入救災的這些官兵在完成救災任務之後是否都有安排相關的這個輔導工作那我們現在的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":555.39,"end":572.423,"text":"向委員報告我們的官兵他的單位只要投入到救災的這個任務單位就要派遣新副官一開始就派遣新副官陪同讓他們能夠掌握官兵的一個心虛狀況那麼救災任務結束之後我們會針對救災官兵的心理狀況"},{"start":573.443,"end":585.834,"text":"做一個心理壓力的一個檢核措施那麼在檢核出來有異常狀況的我們會持續去追蹤看就是要進行到二級輔導或者到三級處遇的階段那這個部分我們都會持續來做"},{"start":587.732,"end":609.271,"text":"那就持續追蹤我想我們針對官兵的心理照護還有這些心理衛生工作大部分僅能夠作為補救的相關措施未來除了強化心腹的專業之外我們還是要回過頭來對於人力的配置 內部的管理"},{"start":610.232,"end":632.122,"text":"部隊整個文化等等一併進入進行檢討改善才能夠有效來照顧到我們官兵的心理健康唯有這個國軍的這些我們士官兵心理健康才能夠確保他們保家衛國的一個量能這部分是不是請我們國防部還有我們相關部位來重視"},{"start":632.982,"end":637.389,"text":"對 我們想新武的工作應該都要持續來加強 持續來加強好 以上謝謝部長的答詢"}]}},{"id":"165620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1e08920c2f818c4e17e24dce8f91e16ee90886039ce1be0fda67baeb4ac1f6ae45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"11:53:22 - 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請鄭部長委員好部長好我想今天召委會排這樣的題目確實現在這是一般的民眾啦我們去認為一般民眾都認為台灣的詐騙"},{"start":107.009,"end":127.062,"text":"橫行而且甚至會覺得說好像全世界台灣大概詐騙最嚴重大家會覺得說這個好像台灣是台灣的政府執法單位無能所以讓台灣變成詐騙天堂但一般民眾是這樣的感受這個感受其實是蠻真實的就是說因為民眾對於這個詐騙現在詐騙的這個狀況的嚴重性的感受是蠻真實的"},{"start":133.098,"end":152.64,"text":"但是我們作為一個政府機關作為一個執法單位我們也要讓民眾知道真相就是說台灣是很嚴重 詐騙是很嚴重但不是只有台灣嚴重其實現在這種新型態詐騙不是我們小時候看的金光黨拿一包磚頭去騙人家的金塊那種金光黨式的詐騙 不是的"},{"start":154.734,"end":173.284,"text":"這十年來這個詐騙都已經是跨境而且他透過這個網際網路透過這種各種方式的這種科技型態在進行的這種我現在就秀出來這個都是事實的這是在全世界各國現在的詐騙問題已經不是台灣單獨面對的說台灣是"},{"start":178.546,"end":197.899,"text":"台灣是非常嚴重不是全世界每一個國家的詐騙其實都非常嚴重也就是說現在這個反詐騙現在已經變成一個全球各個國家大家共通要面對的議題所以跨境的司法合作當然也就變得很重要了我看這些新聞新加坡詐騙橫行財產損失260億美國人一天被騙4800萬新加坡剛剛講治安很好的新加坡"},{"start":211.588,"end":218.673,"text":"韓國 馬來西亞 西班牙每一個國家都一樣這是全球反詐聯盟的統計2024年 去年全球因為詐騙造成的損失"},{"start":234.028,"end":256.687,"text":"全球高達103兆美元103兆的美元不是台幣103兆美元那這裡統計各個國家他的詐騙的受害這第一名是美國美國到到這個3520平均一個人他跟人口做平均 平均一個人損失3252"},{"start":262.014,"end":285.365,"text":"520美元全球第一再來是丹麥再來是斯洛伐克再來新加坡剛剛講資安最好的新加坡排名全球第四被詐騙的狀況那我這旁邊也統計了我們的這個跟各國世界各國這是去年113年被詐騙的金額台灣大概新台幣502億"},{"start":287.438,"end":314.744,"text":"我們鄰近的日本去年一年被詐騙的金額高達670億台幣比台灣還嚴重新加坡小小一個國家267.2億美國 當然他國家大所以他被詐騙的案件也多他的經濟規模也大所以他4123億香港 小小一個香港就一年就被詐騙366億"},{"start":318.157,"end":328.878,"text":"所以我要講的是說我們確實要重視但是也必須要讓人民知道說現在這個詐騙大家都說怎麼詐騙集團我們政府為什麼抓不到"},{"start":329.878,"end":355.967,"text":"那就是因為這個詐騙不是我們台灣政府抓不到我們一直在抓一直在抓它現在變成我們現在執法單位大概佔了六成的案件六成以上的案件都是都是詐騙案等於每天的現在我們的警察機關我們的調查局我們的司法單位在處理最大宗的超過一半以上的業務就是在打詐但是打不完嘛不只台灣打不完全世界各國都打不完全世界各國都在打"},{"start":357.509,"end":380.185,"text":"所以這樣子的問題是但是我要講人民的感受是真實的認為說詐騙嚴重這是真實的這個我們也必須要了解民眾的感受讓我們政府盡力的來做啦那也有很多人尤其像這個太子集團這種個案之後很多人覺得說為什麼台灣詐騙嚴重因為台灣的刑罰太輕了台灣對詐騙的刑罰太輕了"},{"start":384.554,"end":403.427,"text":"那這個我們也要看啊這不是說我們說輕就輕我們說重就重要不然我們就詐欺犯罪唯一死刑夠重了吧我們要看全世界是不是其他的國家我們台灣是不是比其他國家的刑罰來得輕這我們也是要做國際的比較所以這個"},{"start":406.67,"end":435.028,"text":"我們看了日本 日本處時我們現在台灣目前是用這個刑法第339條跟339之4條兩條這個詐欺跟加重詐欺罪那另外我們有特別條例有這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例用第43條第44條來做一些加重的規定所以我們在比較這個世界各國的刑度其實台灣的刑度並不輕"},{"start":437.096,"end":465.23,"text":"那是不是是說我們台灣把他加到多重大家才會覺得說那這樣有辦法遏止事實上全世界大家每一個國家都在想辦法要遏止遏止詐欺的刑度大概台灣並沒有比其他國家輕這個部分我覺得我們法務部也要讓民眾了解其實包括我們未來我們現在正這個我們這個這個特別條例有一個修法已經送立法院了嗎現在那個現在在那個"},{"start":467.021,"end":483.162,"text":"這個已經送大院來審議了已經要審議了 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是高額詐欺比世界各國都還重很多對 我們高額詐欺事實上是而且我們還包括罰金那個罰金是大概世界其他國家沒有這個還沒有採取這個制度"},{"start":488.807,"end":513.778,"text":"這個我覺得也要讓民眾了解說事實上詐欺犯罪是現代每一個國家政府都頭痛在面對的問題我們台灣政府並沒有 並不是說政府都在睡覺也並不是說我們都不懲罰詐欺犯罪台灣變成詐欺犯罪的天堂 沒有這些詐欺全部都是跨境全球性的安全問題"},{"start":515.933,"end":540.747,"text":"那所以接下來我們就討論所以因為這樣 因為人民有這種感受所以就有人提出說那是不是要編刑入法是不是要把這個打詐要編刑我看到這個題目在我們立法院司法委員會出現我是真的是滿驚訝的啦至少在邏輯上我們司法法治委員會在邏輯上我們應該是先討論台灣要不要"},{"start":543.373,"end":553.509,"text":"有詐欺這個刑罰要不要有邊刑這個刑罰這個是前提啊有邊刑這個刑罰之後才來討論哪一些刑罰是不是要採用邊刑不是嗎"},{"start":555.543,"end":583.515,"text":"部長對不對我們現在的刑法我們現在目前的刑法規定在刑法第32條33條他那個是目前有有有有有編刑嗎有有身體刑嗎這個是刑法的種類齁刑法的種類組刑的種類沒有編刑對這個所以這是一個一個刑法總則的問題對所以今天提供說參考新加坡打炸編刑入法是可行性評估事實上是應該要先評估台灣的刑法是不是要"},{"start":584.435,"end":606.023,"text":"是不是要採納邊形啊如果說我們 召委覺得說應該要採邊形 那就你是立法委員 你就提案啊修改刑法第32條 33條把主刑納入邊形 從這裡開始還對啊然後接下來刑法分責 再來討論每一個刑法分責哪一些刑事犯罪 哪一些構成要件 我們要要刻以邊形啊收受賄賂 讓建商提高這個"},{"start":614.396,"end":632.385,"text":"這個容積率 這個要不要編刑這個就可以討論 這個就是第二步刑法總結完了以後接下來討論酒駕要不要編刑 兒童 兒女要不要編刑然後再來討論這個收受境外資金來跟監人民這個要不要編刑一個一個案子 一種一種犯罪形態來討論這個才是符合邏輯啊"},{"start":636.992,"end":655.023,"text":"那現在直接就說在我國還沒有編刑這個制度之下來討論打渣要不要編刑這個邏輯實在是太跳躍了那這個編刑入法其實大家一直講新加坡編刑我們就來看全世界到底哪一些國家有編刑"},{"start":656.616,"end":680.812,"text":"如果邊形是這麼好的制度應該是全世界很多國家都會從沒有邊形去改成有邊形這個才是國際趨勢啊這才是如果說邊形這麼好應該是這樣子啊但是我們事實上我們看到是相反的越來越多的國家 包括沙烏地阿拉伯越來越多的國家是從原來有邊形到廢止邊形這一定有它的道理嘛"},{"start":682.551,"end":709.739,"text":"我們不要說人權保護我們今天如果真的要修改刑法總則刑法分則要把邊刑入法可以討論其實人民大家也有很多很多人有這種想法說認為就是就打他就鞭打這個很好但是我們要來看看就如果我們要修改包括我們國內法不要說刑法總則不要說我剛講刑法分則要修改"},{"start":710.68,"end":729.72,"text":"你這個 我們現在兩公約是國內法現在兩公約不是國際公約兩公約現在是國內法化了它是台灣的法律如果我們要違反這個兩公約我們自己台灣立法院通過的立法要加入身體刑那我們這個兩公約我們也要面對啊"},{"start":731.107,"end":757.871,"text":"我們自己要國內法說要把兩公約說排除我們兩公約我們通通遵守但是身體型 酷刑的部分我們不遵守入法嗎這個我認為說邊形是可以討論因為畢竟有太多人太多台灣人民都認為說應該邊形不要說邊形啦我們甚至應該要討論說是不是可以開放民眾一般民眾到警察局前面毆打嫌犯"},{"start":759.802,"end":779.073,"text":"這個大家也都覺得去打這些嫌犯大家都覺得這些嫌犯該打啊既然大家都覺得該打是不是我們以後開放讓民眾都可以在警察局門口警察把嫌犯押出來先讓大家打一打再進去徵訊這不是我們所以我們討論問題就要從這個問題的源頭來討論這個其實現在我們看到全世界的邊形其實大概"},{"start":789.571,"end":817.9,"text":"就是以前英國對待殖民地在英國的殖民地留下來就像剛才我們主席講的在台灣的日治時代那時候日本對待殖民地也曾經有過邊形現在全世界在英國過去英國的殖民地已留下來邊形再來就宗教因素宗教因素 伊斯蘭教的教法他們有一些國家宗教因素他會保留邊形"},{"start":819.585,"end":846.864,"text":"我們看到這些國家台灣要加入這些國家的行列成為新的有邊形的國家大家來討論我們看為什麼世界上我們現在沒有看到什麼國家是從沒有邊形現在增加到變成有邊形但是我們確實看到很多有邊形的國家現在取消了邊形這個國際趨勢他一定有他的道理啦齁那我覺得要研議也很好啦那研議我們不是研議打詐要不要邊形"},{"start":848.131,"end":871.601,"text":"而是研議台灣要不要編刑 這個問題要先研究出來你們先一個態度我們看這麼多立法委員在這邊喔 台灣大家都覺得說要有編刑所以就在討論一下總質詢說要編刑 一下說要編刑但是我在立法院沒有看到任何一個委員提案修改刑法第三十二條 三十三條就直接說 我提一個刑法修改草案才會納入編刑 我沒看到辦個法案所以這個我是覺得齁"},{"start":877.998,"end":893.31,"text":"一般民眾的感受我們都要尊重而且我們要非常的去理解但是當我們作為一個立法者我們作為一個執法者我們就應該要把這個問題從根源的 全面的來看待認真的來面對以上"}]}},{"id":"165614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d19b39f6e38550952f56e0913f8e9ddf6f45c75d439e1a44ece7ecaafb1c2cb07b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:43:29 - 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我想請教副主委 到底工程會有沒有正視這樣的狀況嗎謝謝委員的提問 工程會一直跟考試院還有行政人事總處有意識到這個問題 所以我們有經過還蠻密集的一些研商"},{"start":120.197,"end":138.051,"text":"那目前這個情況特別嚴重的是在比較偏遠的地區或者是這個行政層級越低的它越攔那我們也有去有你們有注意到行政層級低嘛對不對行政層級越低的尤其是在公所端公所端建設課沒半人這個人就沒了"},{"start":140.052,"end":145.054,"text":"所以目前我們當然第一個當然是有有這個留任獎金的一個這個留任獎金那另外特別針對偏遠"},{"start":157.84,"end":179.892,"text":"或是比較鄉鎮級的我們是逐步要透過跟大學有關土木工程系的部分來合作譬如說我們會首先在花蓮地區跟國立藍大學在那邊設置開設專業的班就是讓一些譬如說有志將來要從事"},{"start":181.313,"end":194.804,"text":"這是政府的工作或者現在已經是月聘雇人員那麼給他一些工程方面的專業還有以及採購的證照讓他經過一定的學分以後他取得了專業的證照以後那麼"},{"start":197.006,"end":213.058,"text":"就可以進入到公部門比較合適的位置來擔任目前是應該在我們100今年度的預算我們有編列那我們也希望大院可以支持那我們就可以循這個模式"},{"start":213.558,"end":229.891,"text":"副主委那我聽到這個重點就是說你們會跟大學端來合作啦那需求機關有可能是公所有可能是地方政府有可能是中央政府的各機關他可能會需求機關嘛對不對那到底誰要來跟這個大學來做對接"},{"start":230.652,"end":253.895,"text":"是由工程會來統一來主導然後由你們來分配還是自己需求機關自己來跟大學對接他去找他要的人才我想要聽一下原則上我們當然不排斥那個個別機關去找嘛但我想個別機關去找大學恐怕有一點困難所以目前是由工程會出面來整合那我們可不可以探求這個機關的需求嘛"},{"start":254.375,"end":266.384,"text":"那我們出面來跟大學 那機關是報需求給你們喔我們會去調查 沒錯 你們會來調查那嘉義應該也會調查吧 我們嘉義我們就是因為是事辦的性質啦 事辦這樣為什麼我們嘉義為什麼不事辦我們這次丹納斯颱風真的很慘欸 我們好幾個公所齁"},{"start":272.348,"end":276.694,"text":"因為他的工程太多了 你看那個汙損啊然後汙損的認定啦 很多災損然後又要辦那些小型工程啊例如那個爐啊 行道樹啦 電火條啦 要刷啦這都工程的發包耶 沒人做耶"},{"start":291.567,"end":306.727,"text":"所以這個當然就是說人才是一件事情另外在採購之外部主委我建議工程會把這一次丹納斯颱風的受災區作為優先事項的地方如果你們有一個多元禁用的一個方案對不對"},{"start":307.648,"end":334.822,"text":"那這樣的方案我們現在確實我們需要這樣的一個人才那又卡到了我事實上我對考試院這一次在核定的這一次植物劣等的一個核定我是看到很不開心為什麼植物劣等他們說好我們會針對二級機關以上然後把植物劣等提高就是說可能在我們縣政府縣的層級他當到科長有可能會讓他到九職等"},{"start":335.422,"end":349.602,"text":"當然待遇的提升可能會讓這一些工程人才願意留在機關這是好事但是偏偏這樣他又排斥了三級機關排斥了三級機關代表什麼代表說我工廠有一個人訓練會好"},{"start":351.184,"end":375.14,"text":"他可能 我就好啊 我要跑去鮑威 我要跑來中庸我跑去管政府 或是我如果嫁他 我就跑去台南那裡的公所因為北北窟公所 他們的列當就比我還高北北的公所 他們叫區公所我們叫做鄉鎮市公所 我們的資料列的比較低所以我覺得整個中央的思考一個模式都是清六都 縱六都"},{"start":376.161,"end":382.21,"text":"都落土比較好啊我們這廢料住的就讓我們趴著很多人走沒得讓我們重視"},{"start":384.633,"end":409.584,"text":"這些問題當時我們有收集到各地方政府的意見我們有回饋給考試院啦那考試院當然他有整體人事文官制度的一些發表當然啦 因為你們沒辦法代表考試院嘛所以這意見我們也是特惠你跟考試院說然後我也會去跟考試院再發飆一下因為他這樣的一個決定下去你知道對我們是雪上加霜欸我們人就已經要潘老啊"},{"start":410.604,"end":429.111,"text":"結果他這個植物業等你下去我們公署的人一定又跑掉了啊我們有感受到這個困境所以工程會也希望能夠積極的協助來處理這個問題那委員的意見我們會帶回去積極來處理好 那第二個啦事實上我知道最近政府採購法"},{"start":430.493,"end":456.559,"text":"有在推針對這個三家以上合格的廠商投標那這件事有可能會透過修法來做一個調整那這個修法的調整事實上原因主要也是希望推動整個公務機關在辦理工程的一個效率在辦理效率當然剛才第一人的問題我剛才已經說了第二制度面的問題但是這樣的一個制度為了效率但是可能你們要去思考就是說"},{"start":457.079,"end":475.004,"text":"那未來工程的品質是否妥當這件事 我覺得這一定要注意喔有信心嗎 我們不是單純把三家才能開標拿掉原則上我們是先建立其他的配套措施 當年我想一開始政府才有辦法立這個"},{"start":476.348,"end":495.789,"text":"立法的過程本來是沒有三家是因為到大院的時候大院也是考慮到會不會有其他的因為資訊當時不夠充分所以列了一個三家才能開標可是這20幾年來實施的結果這樣三家導致的管制成本太高了那而且現在已經資訊相對的"},{"start":497.523,"end":513.904,"text":"比較公開那管道也比較多而且我們現在配套的修法會強制機關在大院的立法案的審議通過預算以後大概都知道要辦理什麼採購會先做一個年初的這個公告"},{"start":515.706,"end":531.435,"text":"副主委我們都知道啦縱使以前規定三家那個三家一直是形式上啦因為真的想要去投標的人對他來說三家也不是什麼大問題啦還是機關拜託他找三家而已啊所以這個是形式"},{"start":532.355,"end":549.634,"text":"我們當然是雖然說整個法律就是說去形式化讓實質上的效果是最重要那實質的效果的監督就是要靠你們你要幹得好 工廠的品質要出來雖然說好 可能修掉三家後以後變成單家投標 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有請金管會同局長好 請金管會委員好"},{"start":26.125,"end":43.583,"text":"局長好 局長這次我們有看到太子集團涉嫌以這個空殼公司在台灣購置11戶的豪宅跟26輛的豪車等高價的資產作為洗錢的工具其實除此之外有很多的不法集團洗錢最常用的就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":45.445,"end":71.492,"text":"那如果他們是利用國內登記的虛擬資產服務商的話至少我們還可以追查到他的金流然後救責可是如果是透過境外的虛擬資產平台洗錢的話那國內我們根本是無法管轄也難以追查那我有發現金管會在今年年初的時候其實我們有提出了虛擬資產服務法草案那特別有提到就是說要跟外國的政府"},{"start":72.573,"end":96.033,"text":"機構還有國際組織來做合作那本身想了解是這是一個怎麼樣的一個模式那以我們台灣在國際上的困境來講的話我們要如何建立官方的管道或者是我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織來防堵洗錢的行為請問局長是 各位委員報告服務法本身目前現在行政院還在審查當中"},{"start":96.914,"end":114.25,"text":"那未來有關於就是說整個洗房機制的一個跨國的合作那會建構在我們行政院洗房辦底下我們會不管是說從司法互助或者說金融機構之間怎麼樣去做相關的協作會在整個行政院洗房辦底下的一個通盤性的一個規劃"},{"start":115.359,"end":137.05,"text":"對,我現在想了解是國際上的這個合作因為本席剛剛有提到就是說其實有很多這個洗錢利用虛擬貨幣洗錢其實都是在國外的這個平台當然國際上的合作就非常的重要所以你們特別在草案的第五條特別提到說會跟國際來做合作那我們知道說其實這個部分一直以來都是有困難的"},{"start":138.03,"end":147.099,"text":"那既然你在法條裡面有特別提到這個部分所以我們想說如果是說沒有辦法建立官方的管道的話那我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織"},{"start":149.158,"end":173.456,"text":"国际组织可能在虚拟资产的部分因为是我们政企局负责我比较不是那么的熟悉虚拟不是那么的熟悉这个部分对我们再提取相关的报告给委员OK这个可以提书面给我了是OK那再来还有我想请教一下就是有关于这个APG就是亚太房子洗钱组织其实我们在1997年的时候就也是创始会员国"},{"start":174.136,"end":189.387,"text":"那這麼多年以來幾十年下來的話我不曉得說我們跟這個組織之間的互動到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況那到底發揮了什麼樣的作用或是說過去有哪些成功破破的洗錢的這些成功的案例這個局長知道嗎"},{"start":190.027,"end":216.559,"text":"是 那個就我初情的了解就是說我們參加那個APG事實上已經非常久我們也是創始會員國 沒有錯那最主要是APG它會對我們這些會員國它會進行相關的洗房評鑑那最近一次是在2018年我們接受APG的一個評鑑是得到亞洲區最佳的一般追蹤的一個規格那這個都是各部會在行政院洗房辦指導之下我們通力合作所展現出來的成果"},{"start":217.575,"end":235.02,"text":"它只是做一個評鑑的一個最主要是在評鑑是在評鑑所以其實上並沒有一些實際上說可以利用這個組織就是APG我們之間有怎麼樣的一個實際上的一個互動或是聯手或是聯防這種動作都沒有聯防的部分"},{"start":235.72,"end":249.839,"text":"可能是涉及到司法偵辦的部分那可能或許法務部那邊他有相關的一個對口單位但APG最主要是來看你這個國家整個洗房不管是法治執行面到底做得好不好那我們是有接受他的一個評鑑"},{"start":251.18,"end":258.727,"text":"所以我也希望就是說因為我看年初你們就已經提出了這個法案那當然現在還在行政院的這個討論審議當中那我們也希望說這草案出來之後我們跟國際上真的是能夠有一個實質的合作關係"},{"start":269.235,"end":295.682,"text":"因為我知道說這部分過去我每次在詢問相關單位的時候常常就說跨國的部分可能很困難這是因為我們沒有管轄權我們因為在國際上的困境所以跟很多國家也沒有辦法可以建立一個正式的官方的管道居然說我們要有這個草案的出來當然就是想有決心就是要徹底的來"},{"start":296.502,"end":310.52,"text":"破除這些所謂的洗錢跟詐騙的這個行為嘛OK好那當然有些部分可能局長你這邊沒有辦法馬上回答本席的這部分可能就需要麻煩您回去的時候用書面的方式OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝羅委員"}]}},{"id":"165626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d11db2c1d544c9589b7119a7747a4c5c6c90886039ce1be0fda7eba39b12b3691e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:16:59 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委員我們的質詢力都很好OK 超過滿足"},{"start":41.247,"end":63.897,"text":"我想說因為針對名利村這個部分因為7月份就反映了然後9月份的時候也交辦可是到11月份的時候還是產生一個淹水的情況這等一下你再一起回應我想特別了解的部分就是說我們現在針對因為今天是針對馬太安溪堰塞湖的災後重建的部分"},{"start":64.517,"end":81.067,"text":"那我特別要提到一個因為在11月份鳳凰颱風來的時候蘇澳這邊的時候也淹水所以我們看到在蘇澳溪分紅工程這邊的時候2013年的時候就已經同意規劃那麼到2023年行政院才終於合訂計畫"},{"start":82.688,"end":107.07,"text":"那麼合訂之後呢還是一拖再拖那整個經費暴漲到今年1月份的時候再度提報修正計畫之後然後目前進度如何可不可以請次長一併回應一下首先2023年3月2號行政院合訂的計畫包括2024、2025我們都有編列蘇浩熙分紅的這個工作跟預算"},{"start":107.791,"end":135.286,"text":"那蘇澳分洪現在的進度各項的進度不管是上游的藍沙壩或是管理中心的設計的工作都已經完成而宜蘭縣政府所提報的這個徵收的這個計畫在今年的九月也奉內政部來核定那預計在年底完成的徵收那也所幸在行政院的協助之下針對於物條或是因為我們做的水工模型實驗事實上我們"},{"start":136.466,"end":157.121,"text":"為了讓蘇澳分紅可以順利的倒排80%的上游的水量市長時間有限 那個什麼時候可以完成這整個計畫什麼時候可以整個完成這個縣政府現在提的修正計畫我們會行政院院長也去現場看過大概118年左右"},{"start":158.602,"end":175.143,"text":"之後再給本席一個更詳細的一個時間的一個控管的一個部分因為時間有限那我想這部分的時候再請這個次長這邊的時候幫我們費心針對這部分特別給我們本辦公室一個相關的一個計畫來好那我接下來我想請問一下農業部陳部長"},{"start":177.325,"end":193.272,"text":"因為那個雖然我們今天講的是那個馬太安溪的部分可是我對那個化家沙整個颱風風災之後整個一個災損之後的一個補助情況到現在情況到底是怎麼樣子然後農損的補助大概什麼時候可以完成這個部分可不可以請部長做個回應"},{"start":194.492,"end":222.932,"text":"我跟委員報告就是整個包括從淡納斯開始的花架在颱風那基本上我們在第一時間能夠主動公告我們就會主動公告那如果說它有持發性的災損的這些品項我們就會跟地方政府密切的配合當適當的時間點就會陸陸續續的去做這個公告然後公告完了以後是由地方政府去現刊公所現刊以後的核報這個程序本身大家都理解我們三天之內一定撥款"},{"start":223.692,"end":253.041,"text":"OK好那針對這個部分本期還特別想去了解一下整個復耕的情況尤其是花蓮這邊整個後續的復耕的狀態的時候我們到底要怎麼做然後它還適合做農耕使用還是到時候要變成一個非農業使用可不可以請部長這邊做個回應我簡單的說明就是現在目前光復耕鳳梨裡面大概有774公頃是被堵沙淹沒那大概分為兩類一類是50公分以下的直接就可以翻耕去處理"},{"start":253.781,"end":275.329,"text":"那另外一個就是比較超過50公分的我們就會看看說是不是需要土地重劃或是用其他的方式來處理那這個部分我們已經開了五場的座談會也跟300多位的這些鄉民一起討論那未來的整個規劃一定會這個區域因為這件災情很嚴重然後我在想說有可能變成非農用嗎"},{"start":276.533,"end":289.411,"text":"都有可能就是說有一部分可能會變造林或者是變成堤防的緩衝帶那這個部分我想我們都會持續的跟鄉民做溝通達到共識還有我們的規劃以後才會比較完整的確定"},{"start":291.686,"end":315.094,"text":"針對這部分的時候我們希望農業部能夠盡速對於農民這部分的災損能夠儘快給予一些補償謝謝部長我接下來想請教一下交通部陳次長因為這一次當中的時候交通部這邊也編列了1.4億元其中1.3億在做災後的一個復原的部分其中有3000萬在做邊坡的搶修跟加固"},{"start":315.834,"end":338.195,"text":"那我們看到了就是整個因為集團氣候來襲台鐵它要韌性補強的部分我覺得還蠻多的因為從104年到113年就是鐵路行車安全改善計畫的時候整個累積到了41億那目前整個審計部8月份它也提出了部分就是說整個台鐵的預警系統異常的平凡土石流雨"},{"start":339.476,"end":348.953,"text":"強風預警功能都不佳針對這個部分的時候我想交通部有沒有一些更具體的做法來針對於台鐵的部分給予一些品質的一個提升"},{"start":351.667,"end":371.677,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為台鐵有關這個沿線啊受到極端氣候的影響等等尤其邊坡的啊其實台鐵已經做了幾項的一個系統在這上頭啊比如說像邊坡的落石告警啊或者是義務入侵的一個告警然後甚至為了因應氣候他會跟"},{"start":373.118,"end":389.687,"text":"氣象署有些QP Plus的一個計畫來市長這個部分大概計畫裡大概我們都理解不過因為台鐵周邊的一個偶發事件變成常態性的一個出現從5月份到11月份我們這邊大概統計了一些數字"},{"start":390.367,"end":403.845,"text":"其中第三個部分的時候9月24號的部分出現了石頭擋在志強號上面志強號撞上去之後脫軌那媒體沒有特別關注是因為那個畫家莎那時候的颱風對於雲嘉地區的一個"},{"start":407.209,"end":435.848,"text":"災害太嚴重了那針對這個部分的時候我想說整個台鐵的部分必須要好好的去做一個品質上面的一個提升跟管理那我這邊的時候特別關注一個狀態就是台鐵其實今年其實跟災防中心還有氣象署都簽了合作備忘錄目前進度如何這個部分能不能夠有效來改善我們這麼多的偶發事件然後變成常態發生的一個情況"},{"start":438.825,"end":462.737,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關備忘錄的部分很像已經簽署了至於說它如何運作目前正還在討論中因為這次雖然交通部只有編到1.4億可是我們希望台鐵這相關的安全部分在這次當中也能夠得到一些相關的提升好不好是謝謝次長 謝謝謝謝政政前委員"}]}},{"id":"165610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d147ffe262bc81d0b27119a7747a4c5c6c45c75d439e1a44ec27a1751fd121cdf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:34:50 - 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陽前發言邀請主席長好 請陳主席長"},{"start":17.352,"end":33.861,"text":"委員好 主席長好 主席長我們來討論今天行政院通過的這個花蓮馬泰安溪的掩塞湖災後重建特別條例那麼我們的稅出是編出了270億那當然全數是以舉債的方式來因應那並且預留30億 帶未來滾動式的檢討 是不是"},{"start":43.326,"end":60.883,"text":"是數字正確那針對於整個災後的重建那當然本席支持加速必須要趕快盡快恢復民生同時在基礎建設方面要能夠好好趕快做讓這個地方能夠恢復正常的一個運作"},{"start":62.324,"end":82.917,"text":"但是在我們知道現在可以說是全額舉債的財政壓力那我們預留了30億30億你有沒有特別指出那麼必須要做明確的指標以及你的審查機制來作為滾動式檢討的一個基本"},{"start":83.357,"end":102.087,"text":"如果沒有這些就等於是變成了第二語北京來請做說明這目前沒有用到當然沒有用到 是預留嘛將來如果要用還要再透過編列特別預算的一個程序追加特別預算的程序來做然後還要送到貴院來審議"},{"start":103.988,"end":124.012,"text":"那這個就是本期剛才所說的你沒有辦法正義使用你如果沒有一個基礎的概念跟基礎面那會弱化你整個主計總處的一個審核功能所以這個部分他如果30億有另外的需求他必須再提出需求"},{"start":124.672,"end":151.15,"text":"预算要办理追加追加预算审议通过之后裁列预算再送到贵会来审议而不是直接用二倍金的形态来使用不是就是主席长您所说的这绝对不能是以二倍金的这个概念所以因此在整个量化成果的指标跟你执行的门槛还有追加必要性的一个标准"},{"start":151.63,"end":170.66,"text":"我想你們都有一定的這個步驟跟他的一個標準嗎是不是所以我們要希望借來的每一分錢都必須要用在災區上面真正的協助災民那接下來本席要請工程會工程會"},{"start":182.857,"end":204.766,"text":"委員好主委你好 委長到目前為止丹納斯颱風要超過了四個月了要超過四個月 但是呢我們原因到底是什麼因為工整位你這樣延宕的原因是指向產權複雜 沒有人居住或者是屋主他不願意修繕"},{"start":207.072,"end":221.843,"text":"而且你在這要求地方要逐戶調查他的意願簽署不同意修繕的文件但是我們知道在整個災後的這個重建他會攸關了公共的一個安全"},{"start":222.583,"end":246.356,"text":"如果我們只是僅止於在詢問的意願跟勸差的這個基礎那等於是把目前一直延宕到現在快四個月這樣子的一個災後治理的一個責任可以說是全數的下放喔所以在這樣的情況之下重建的進度當然是有制度性的一個停滯"},{"start":247.296,"end":267.588,"text":"那它的風險呢可能會暴露到下一次的災害當中因為現在暖化的這個氣候讓我們不可預測到底會怎麼樣所以針對這樣子的樣態請教主委你們除了詢問意願之外那你要怎麼樣去建構"},{"start":269.43,"end":289.01,"text":"強制處理的一個程序如果有危害到公共安全的這個部分還有第二個你的跨機關的一個協助模式第三個以及你的時程的一個標準那麼以避免在我們整個災禍重建呢處於真空狀態請說明"},{"start":290.717,"end":319.02,"text":"報告委員 這次前進指揮所調集了全國大概300家的優良的這個關於承攬公共工程的廠商下去協助但是並不是無價的幫忙這個受損的這個房屋是要簽合約然後一定價格是來協助修正所以剛剛本席說了嘛你現在到現在已經超過了4個月嘛那你的進度呢我們都已經做完了 全部都做完了"},{"start":320.243,"end":346.145,"text":"而且各區公所去詢問這些瘦子房屋要繼續這個協助你的就協助那你如果不協助了就不協助就是不需要修繕了不需要修繕其中很多樣態當然很多樣態就是本席說的如果有影響到公共安全的部分那你們怎麼處理呢這裡台南市政府有依據建築法可以處理依據台南市政府的自治條例"},{"start":346.986,"end":371.725,"text":"你去測查好不好你去測查還有影響到公共那是市政府的業務所以要不然就停滯在那裡沒有停滯那這怎麼辦如果它有違公共安全或公共衛生本來就有一定的程序要求它改善不改善就拆除這一點也就是本期今天跟你討論的有影響到公共安全的部分我們必須要去把它處理這個現行法規有"},{"start":372.465,"end":396.317,"text":"對啊 法規有你要去執行之啊那是台南市政府要執行對啊 你要督導要去執行之啊對不對這個台南市政府要去執行台南市政府要執行如果有這樣的現象我們一定要督導去把它安全的一個不讓它建築法的主管機關是內政部影響到整個公共安這個公共秩序的一個安全嘛好 謝謝好 謝謝楊先生"}]}},{"id":"165609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d157e2540e435ea10056e0913f8e9ddf6f45c75d439e1a44ecdf384419043f4e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:32:01 - 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謝謝主席那請我們中郵董事長請中郵方董事長董委好"},{"start":25.185,"end":38.614,"text":"好 董事長那之前媒體接連在11月10號跟11月17號兩次有質疑我們第三天然氣接收站的工程弊端的問題11月10號是針對第二期"},{"start":40.495,"end":49.599,"text":"我們外推工程的部分那認為從94億元暴增到253億元11月17號是針對我們一期的主體工程部分報導認為評選的時間花超過4個月對於漫長的時間讓廠商是不是有得知價格在做設計的空間那針對以上兩點我們中油是不是針對這一些部分"},{"start":70.588,"end":94.143,"text":"認為程序是一切合法嗎是 鮑偉首先針對11月10號這個部分所謂報價從94%暴增到253億這樣的一個報導呢在公司來講已經做了內部的一個調查從來沒有出現過94億或者是講120億或者是150億這個數字在公司裡面第一手的"},{"start":101.216,"end":107.358,"text":"這個資料就是238.4億那麼238.4億去做公開的閱覽以及做後續的一些處理從頭到尾就238.4億經過廠商詢價以後最後再把這個預算數調整到253億是最終的一個所以沒有經費暴漲的暴增的問題沒有 沒有"},{"start":125.825,"end":147.515,"text":"那針對一期的主體工程那它是因為中間卡著環評才延宕嗎是 這邊所提到的就是說評選時間漫長141天這個應該指的是一期的時候在第三次公告那麼公告之後到最後的一個決標的時間過長所質疑的是這一點這點我做說明"},{"start":150.896,"end":171.898,"text":"第三次公告之後 開了標以後公告之後因為環評的關係所以在我們公司對外所做的環評承諾陸陸續續有做一些調整因此在這個招標公告上就去做修正那麼一修正的話 那個等標其實就要拉長"},{"start":173.392,"end":195.724,"text":"主要的原因在這所以其實已經做過調查所以照這樣來講媒體的報導其實是不實的對 報導是不實的那所以這調查已經出來那媒體報導不實那中郵針對這部分要不要跟媒體來提告主要是現在最重點的我想應該應該關心的就是說到底這個事實的真相是什麼"},{"start":197.34,"end":216.053,"text":"那如果媒體確實他沒有經過詳細調查這報導不實對中油如果有影響的話我們當然要提告所以中油會提告嘛是是是那就計畫會提告目前還沒提告是不是目前就是重點是在於這個事實是什麼先要把它調查清楚"},{"start":217.093,"end":229.942,"text":"好 所以如果媒體報導不實 中郵會提出告訴是的 是的好 那還有針對這一部分 所以我們了解我們目前三接的總工程經費是965億元嘛 對不對是的 是的"},{"start":233.024,"end":251.163,"text":"那針對我們三接有所謂的地方工程經費1%的回饋也就是依照台灣中油公司木林的工作要點第二點第三項做規範那所以我們當初是說733億所以回饋是"},{"start":255.452,"end":280.992,"text":"7億3千多萬那可是照這樣子來講現在是965億那是不是我們針對木林的補助這個經費是不是少編列了這個也會相對的增加會相對的增加什麼時候會提出增加會提出增加 它是跟你的直接工程費用對啊 那你現在已經確定是965億對對 當然要增加那這一次我們有編列嗎"},{"start":282.222,"end":309.553,"text":"有 原來的660億的時候呢在這個地方公益建設所編的是8.8億那麼經過的預算調整變成965億以後呢那麼在地方公益建設部分編列是11.3億那是今年度編列了嗎分年編列分年編列他要跟你的工程進度的所以現在總共是編列多少 木林的經費"},{"start":312.145,"end":336.437,"text":"不是 到今年嘛是不是 累積編列是不是是不是問我會後再提供資料給我好 所以我剛聽董事長講總共會10億多是不是對 11.8所以我們目前是有就是會編列到10億多然後逐年編列所以是有10億多的經費木林的經費對不對是好 那會後再給我詳細的資料好的好的好 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所以我要問問兩位喔你們同意 邊形在台灣要研議上路嗎 廳長"},{"start":187.625,"end":206.676,"text":"我們可能要回溯去探討刑罰的目的是什麼刑罰是在身體刑的部分在我國比較討論比較採負面的看法可能有所謂的報仇性的一個性質我們是用矯正型的概念來取代這種硬抱型的思維嗎"},{"start":208.377,"end":219.464,"text":"而且在人權的面向上呢他是不是違反了國際兩公約也違反了進行酷刑公約嘛對不對就是司法院立場非常清楚我們絕對要審慎那部長呢"},{"start":224.399,"end":245.118,"text":"的確這個我們也徵詢過學者專家的意見 廣大社會意見當然政壇兩說都有啦但是的確這個這個變形這個是在世界上是逐漸不被因為這個是英國的對它殖民時期留下來的或者是有些國家可能基於宗教的理由他們還存在因為那個英國都已經老早就廢除掉了"},{"start":246.239,"end":267.058,"text":"我們認為說當然這個有一些的聲音但是我們也是認為這個可能有違反酷刑跟公正公約的疑慮另外事實上怎麼去執行那部分也非常的一個很多的執行安全上的問題"},{"start":269.76,"end":286.23,"text":"另外新加坡是不是說那個邊型要多用譬如說據我們所了解他是50歲以下的男性才能用而且還要身體檢查有辦法他有很多執行的門檻跟限制法律的要件這個都要從長積一謝謝兩位的回答我相對比較安心"},{"start":292.694,"end":311.24,"text":"也就是說我知道社會對於詐騙案件大家都痛心疾首 深痛誤覺包括本席我們在司法法治委員會這麼多的專案報告恐怕詐騙案類是我們所有專案報告的第一名代表所有不分黨派的立委都關心如何有效的來防範詐騙"},{"start":312.78,"end":333.331,"text":"但是如果迷信亂世用重點就是有效而去選擇了亂世用亂點我認為像邊行這種違反國際的人權公約讓台灣可能因此而人權走回頭路我們絕對要審慎的研議部長你要補充嗎你好像有話想要再說"},{"start":334.191,"end":343.56,"text":"的確這個詐欺就是全民公敵是民怨之所在這個我們都很 也造成我們司法人員包括執法人員最大的暗亮那這部分我想我們最近我們在11月13號也修法了加重出來回應民意的需求的確像我們那個高額的詐欺這部分我們也到7年以上加重刑責"},{"start":357.754,"end":377.155,"text":"那那個地板的那個加重的三年以上七年以下那個已經下降調到一百萬只要詐騙的金額到一百萬的門檻那這邊就會處罰另外我們在在那個對也規範了禁車的條款禁車的條款然後擴大對潛在詐欺被害人的保"},{"start":377.675,"end":387.601,"text":"還有那個要獲得減免一定要把調和解的金額在六個月以下達成和解要把前面要幾戶外面才能夠減免或者這部分我們再假釋的這部分我們的門檻又再提高那我們對這部分我們就具體求刑因為這些兆團直接是非常可惡所以絕對不能夠輕判所以我們也是要求檢察官一定要求重刑好"},{"start":401.629,"end":421.176,"text":"謝謝部長我給您非常充分的時間說明也就是從您的回答告訴我們政府對於詐騙案件從前端的預防到後端的重懲我們都想方設法在執行面的武器強化或是在法治面的健全是我們現在進行式而不是非常單一的從一個"},{"start":423.817,"end":438.466,"text":"最酷刑的邊形來作為一個上策的解方我想我們的立場是一樣所以我在這裡講我的立場針對邊形在台灣能不能上路應不應該上路這件事情我非常的保留我反對"},{"start":439.446,"end":456.689,"text":"我們台灣不能走人權的回頭路我們不能夠違反聯合國的兩公約甚至不能去違反禁止酷刑的公約以及剛剛部長所提到的在香港新加坡它的執行是針對50歲以下的男性有非常多的要件要達到所以說編刑的執行的標準本身"},{"start":457.29,"end":479.295,"text":"就很難一致這也是要去審酌以及到目前為止並沒有實證來證明說邊形能夠有效嚇阻犯罪就如同我剛剛前一頁的PTT告訴我們就是如果新加坡邊形是萬用的話他的治安可能排比會比台灣更好不是嗎下一頁"},{"start":481.471,"end":503.939,"text":"那我也要提醒邊行在台灣過去不論誰執政在馬英九執政的時候有民進黨的立委提案性侵要邊行立法院沒通過2017年小英總統執政的時候也有公民網路的提案酒駕要邊行政策上我們也沒有採納而現在2025年有立委的倡議我認為社會要擴大討論好 我想我們在場大家的立場我們要非常的明確"},{"start":510.427,"end":525.874,"text":"下一頁 詐騙打詐尚未成功政府仍需努力但是人權不能回頭下一個那今天剛剛我們講到詐騙是全球公敵跨國互助就顯得非常的重要下一頁"},{"start":528.199,"end":543.881,"text":"這個聯合國的報告也今天有非常多的委員再次引用太子集團這個案子就是符合聯合國這一個報告的主要的點出來的方向也就是跨國組織犯罪生態系的轉型"},{"start":544.842,"end":558.894,"text":"確實如此詐騙集團高度整合化企業化的運作太子集團就是這樣以及犯罪據點轉向無政府管控或非國家武裝團體控制的地區好柬埔寨也如同這個報告所"},{"start":560.535,"end":576.597,"text":"所以說太子集團的犯案確實符合了聯合國的這一個報告的事情但是讓我們看到的是既然詐騙是全球公敵跨國的司法互助就是必須"},{"start":577.919,"end":591.951,"text":"所以這個案子從美國向台灣提出示警我們加速來偵辦這不就是跨國的司法互助嗎我不曉得很多委員都罵說因為我們怎麼可以讓這個案子是美國來告訴我們我們才開始辦我認為這個"},{"start":595.583,"end":615.038,"text":"是很有問題的邏輯本來全球都在承擔這種跨國性組織性高度整合化的犯罪集團全球互相通報互相協助本來就再自然也不過了嘛部長我們有很多案子協助其他國家偵辦不是嗎"},{"start":615.94,"end":641.016,"text":"這個是就是國際合作 因為現在跨境的一個犯罪包括毒品 詐欺 洗錢這都是已經跨境的一個國際的一個犯罪所以必須要國際合作 互相交換情資所以我認為大家不要把因為美國示警了 一起跟台灣來協助偵辦然後把它講成好像我們的政府失靈了"},{"start":642.536,"end":665.116,"text":"國際互助本來就是必須而台灣也要堅定的強大的扮演好這種國際司法互助的角色我們也能夠幫助其他國家一起來偵破這種全球性的詐騙的犯罪我覺得這樣的評斷跟觀點才是正確而不是今天一直在這裡為難你們"},{"start":668.16,"end":678.415,"text":"那我也要說來下一頁我直接講到來下一頁講到那個好這裡因為我們給了打炸非常多的新的武器透過修法202320242025我們剛剛您講的我們還有新的修法"},{"start":684.588,"end":706.974,"text":"到底我們的打炸是真的都沒有進展嗎這個是165的打炸的儀表板也是在我們的這幾年的努力之下上路的我們相信透明公開我們相信唯有全民一起來監督一起來關注我們政府勇敢的接受社會的檢驗"},{"start":708.254,"end":719.721,"text":"如果以這個儀表板上的公告的資訊我們每月詐騙案的受理數是減少36%它的源頭是有效的減少的以及詐騙的財損數從138億下降到60億減少56%我承認這個數字還是很怕人的我們還是要防範但是我要為我們所有的執法人員打氣"},{"start":737.154,"end":761.007,"text":"當立法院給了武器我們所有的部門投入而且社會有共識一起來打仗而且全球一起來防炸的時候有成績有成效我們永遠不滿意但是我也要替你們講公道話而不是一再打擊我們政府同仁的士氣最後一個我提醒一個新的案例來下一個是發生在我自己身上前一夜"},{"start":762.128,"end":776.188,"text":"就是說廣告實名制上路之後詐騙集團的手法改變了從過去的假投資廣告最大宗現在變成是網路購物最大宗而且成長了222%我自己是受害者下一頁"},{"start":777.29,"end":796.9,"text":"我就在上禮拜三在這裡質詢的時候我的服務處助理打給我這個四妖姐姐你是不是有在哪裡買了什麼有購其實我已經N次收到這種包裹因為我自己是不會網購的所以我都告訴我助理我沒有我助理說那我知道那這個就是詐騙"},{"start":798.16,"end":821.39,"text":"所以說非常多的幽靈包裹一案可以兩詐一個我查到他的公司資訊全部造假而我掃進去他的公司資訊我就可以查到這是一個不折不扣的一頁式的網站當你去查詢驗證這個詐騙包裹的時候他同時如果你去搜尋了進入他的頁面他又可以設下陷阱去盜取你的個資"},{"start":822.811,"end":841.87,"text":"所以這一類的幽靈包裹好下一頁我今天沒有時間了已經占超過時間了我還是要提醒審計部也寫出報告我們的跨部會今天那個馬指揮官在這裡跨部會的合作從經濟部到交通部對於物流業者超商配送"},{"start":842.83,"end":863.207,"text":"然後到我們的內政部的這個偵辦現在是失靈的幽靈包裹這一類到現在是沒有辦法有效的去管控的而現在它已經成為新型的網路詐騙的最大宗已經超越了投資廣告"},{"start":863.968,"end":891.509,"text":"所以我們找到對的方法去打擊詐騙當我們讓網路實名制上路之後可以讓這些假投資廣告沒有那麼辦法方便的橫行那現在已經變成新型的這種網路購物的詐騙因為時間到了我今天拋出來下一次我相信還有非常多次的機會就教於各位是不是可以把跨部會的協防就幽靈包裹網路購物的詐騙我明明沒有買"},{"start":892.25,"end":900.795,"text":"他獲到付款要騙消費者的錢這個東西我們來協防起來我下次再就教於你們好不好好謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"165594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1167b7558ba6f2a167119a7747a4c5c6c45c75d439e1a44ec3eccb88f554b3b0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:58:51 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請陳次長還有衛福部呂次長呂次長"},{"start":22.845,"end":40.286,"text":"我也好上早因為交通領域也是我很關心的核心之一尤其是災後重建的交通接駁對當地的民眾事實上是非常的重要在聯合國減少災害風險辦公室也提出這樣的一個支持的論述"},{"start":41.307,"end":60.772,"text":"所以就先來問一下花蓮災後很多居民都跟我們反映說光復鄉的住民要進出偏遠部落過道市區接駁車就很不足影響到看診上學物資運送基本生活都受到影響市長目前掌握狀況是什麼地方的政府有解決了嗎交通部又是怎麼協助的"},{"start":63.136,"end":81.097,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關那個地方接駁的這件事情我們有所謂的公共運輸的發展一個計畫在那個計畫裡頭我們大概對於偏鄉的或者是這種有災民地區需要接駁的我們有相關的一個計畫在做補助或推動"},{"start":81.798,"end":104.177,"text":"所以這一部分我想公路局大概會跟花蓮縣政府再來討論一下看是不是有這樣的一個輸運上的一個缺口那如果有這個缺口的話該如何來補強我想他們會來說我要補充說明因為地方人士來跟我反映說現在的交通接駁的資源盤點根本沒有做好所以造成有資源送進去卻不知道怎麼合理配置"},{"start":104.637,"end":129.508,"text":"甚至現在的交通運輸是靠臨時動之沒有編列常態的預算假如哪一天預算用完了就會交通斷吹居民當然不安所以我想問市長這邊是不是願意協助先把運輸補助做完整的先做資源盤點而且把列入為花蓮馬太安西堰澀湖的那個災後重建特別條例的300億的特別預算"},{"start":132.816,"end":145.681,"text":"市長我跟委員報告一下在災害來臨的時候相關的接駁是有在辦理的那這部分呢我想我們會持續來看怎麼樣繼續來在這段期間來辦理那至於說後續如何來補強這一部分呢剛才我也特別提到會請那個應該是我們的北區吧北區監理所跟花蓮縣政府再來討論我覺得讓住民不要再為交通煩惱了謝謝市長"},{"start":160.106,"end":160.647,"text":"市長請回 接下來我們的衛福部市長這次花蓮的災情事實上是"},{"start":168.789,"end":193.876,"text":"暴露一個非常嚴重的問題就是台灣部分縣市都還沒有建立健全的長照避難體系因為如果有的話最後罹難者最多的應該不會是長者最嚴峻的事實是獨居的高齡者跟重度障礙者在災難面前的最先受到傷害的人就是這群人現在宜蘭也傳出了有長者在水災當中不幸罹難在這個代表"},{"start":194.696,"end":222.051,"text":"的问题不是个案的失误而是整体制度的没有到位所以我们不能等地方政府栓紧螺丝我认为中央要有更积极的作为所以市长针对花莲的问题我先讲两个事实第一个连最基本的撤离通知都没有做到不是每位长者都有收到细胞简讯更不用说撤离动线撤去哪里第二"},{"start":222.651,"end":247.176,"text":"後送安置配套亂成一團 完全沒有標準流程我們先不談個案 我要問的是 會不會對這次災後中央跨部會協作以及促進督促我們地方政府改善的具體作為在哪裡報告委員 我們現在目前大概有兩個主要的一個做法其實就整個那個疏散的部分 還有那個撤離的部分基本上還是屬於地方政府的權責"},{"start":248.036,"end":261.4,"text":"這點我一定要強調當然就是說在這邊這個中央政府作為我們整個督導我們當然是責無旁貸那我跟委員報告我們現在目前大概就是也感謝大院這邊的一個支持我們的兩年之內我們現在有編了62億就是針對整個所謂獨居長輩獨居的這一個"},{"start":264.801,"end":283.618,"text":"為什麼這樣問因為我手上有個正反對照的最清楚的例子高雄三區的行政區那馬下和桃園跟茂林台風來時的就很快的預防性的撤離不是等下大雨才跑優先去撤離我們的孕婦高齡者行動不便者"},{"start":286.8,"end":296.528,"text":"所以我就要問你說台灣到底有沒有統一的長照身障者的避難體系那為什麼每個縣市執行起來落差很大高雄可以做 為什麼花蓮做成這樣"},{"start":299.639,"end":317.339,"text":"所以就要希望你們接下來是不是能夠掌握地方政府就是要求地方政府要掌握優先通知 撤離名冊還有獨居的老人跟重度障礙者跟行動不便的那些人到底有沒有爆發進去你們要去檢視不能只有獨居長者到"},{"start":317.959,"end":335.661,"text":"到底誰負責敲門誰負責疏散這個都要通體的去做規劃而且災後如果遇到醫療中斷的時候停電偏遠地區怎麼處理那中央應該要有一個先行預置醫療轉介跟安置的流程這個可不可以做得到"},{"start":336.081,"end":359.569,"text":"中央這一塊包委員我現在能不能簡單那個三點說明第一個就是說有關獨居長輩這是屬於民政那我們這邊會來跟內政部這邊督導就整個那個村裡就是系統第二個有關長照的部分主要是長照室長照室這邊我們會協同機構另外第三個剛剛委員剛剛所說的有一些有關於獨居但是或者說有一些整個行動不便的我們到時候會來跟醫事室這邊就地形醫院這邊"},{"start":361.45,"end":370.988,"text":"謝謝次長因為我覺得這個問題都是很多地方的社福團體都很關心我也知道次長都有在處理那兩週內請正式回覆我們辦公室好的 非常感謝委員 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法務部部長鄭明謙等人 主席王釗及委員小林報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請法務部部長 法務部調查局局長 經濟部部長 財政部部長 交通部部長 行政院公共工程委員會主任委員環境部法務部廉政署 臺灣中油股份有限公司董事長 臺灣電力股份有限公司董事長等就中油三接福包工程款爭議及近年來國營失業貪圖案件查處成效進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1350.559,"end":1353.662,"text":"好那我們現在先介紹到場的委員以及列席的官員首先介紹黃國昌委員然後"},{"start":1379.516,"end":1405.095,"text":"緊接著再介紹的是司法院的其實廳長李大任李廳長今天還有法務部部長鄭明謙政部長法務部調查局的陳百利局長行政院打詐指揮中心的指揮官馬勝元次長內政部警政署的張榮興署長其他的列席官員我就不再逐一的介紹並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1406.434,"end":1418.402,"text":"那本次議程的排定是太子集團的涉炸案跨部會的防炸及打炸成效以及參考新加坡打炸邊形入法的可行性評估的專題報告以及詢答"},{"start":1419.465,"end":1442.198,"text":"好 那麼接下來就先進行報告那麼我本席在這裡邀請法務部法務部調查局行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心以及內政部警政署的官員報告那每位發言時間三分鐘為限好 那麼首先先請法務部的政部長報告 謝謝"},{"start":1449.299,"end":1474.755,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉要列席代表本部報告並被質詢至報告如下進行質疑首先有關北檢偵辦太子集團跨國詐欺以洗錢案件在今年11月4號執行搜索具體最終羈押4人部分被告拒保並同步扣押超過45億元價值的不法財產包括不動產名車及金融帳戶"},{"start":1476.336,"end":1504.878,"text":"此案為大型跨境炸區洗錢犯罪本部國兩司將以國際刑事司法互助及司法互助協定權益協助調查同時執法辦案團隊將持續收集釐清案請積極偵辦查組向上溯源嚴懲犯刑有關發布會防詐及打詐成效部分本部督導台高檢署持續溯源追查強化犯罪所的查過訪問機制並將查緝過程所發現強化的防詐"},{"start":1505.925,"end":1517.166,"text":"措施回饋給行政機關 共同強化防詐周圍此外 行政院114年11月13日已通過詐房條例修正草案 再懲詐之修法"},{"start":1518.243,"end":1540.104,"text":"重點包括第一提高炸防條例的法定刑責擴大適用範圍最終可處七年以上有期徒刑第二加速填補被害人財損若未在一定時間內賠償調和解的金額不可減免刑責第三增訂禁舍條款被告在未賠償前禁舍行為將那為良心考量"},{"start":1541.746,"end":1562.364,"text":"詐謗條例修正常委已在13日送大院審議 懇請大院支持有關事我參考新加坡打詐編刑入法我國社會及法界能有正反意見新加坡於2025年擴大詐欺犯罪的適用編刑同時刪除部分其他罪名的編刑規定這個議題涉及兩公約及酷刑公約"},{"start":1563.144,"end":1589.791,"text":"本部昨日已召開行修會議討論聽取檢審辯學及機關代表專業的一個意見將程序收集外國立法律作為後續評估的參考同時本部結合其他打詐國家隊成員透過行事及行政分析合體強化公司合作嚴密防詐網路以減少詐欺罪數及民眾損害使民眾有感政府打詐決心以上報告進行指教"},{"start":1591.223,"end":1613.057,"text":"好 謝謝曾部長待會兒可能再請司法院的理聽長之後再報告然後我們不好意思剛剛因為遺漏了那麼接下來在下一位長官報告之前因為我們之前的議事錄已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定那麼現在我們就先確定議事錄"},{"start":1615.259,"end":1628.146,"text":"請問在座的兩位委員我們對於上次的議事錄有沒有錯誤跟遺漏沒有 沒有的話我們的議事錄就確定 謝謝接下來我們就先請法務部的陳柏麗局長來報告 謝謝"},{"start":1635.84,"end":1657.701,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就本日的會議主題進行專題報告請提出報告如次進行指教本局執行集團性電信網路詐欺案件114年即增辦221案那查扣不法所得是3億餘元不含太子集團案45億餘元"},{"start":1659.281,"end":1681.137,"text":"然後查扣了這個機房跟水房有36座那在查緝跨境電信詐欺的部分立案了72案那目前還有23案正在進行國際情資交換以及尋求司法互助在跨部會合作的成效部分本局與通傳會積極防堵黑莓卡還有人頭SIM卡貓卡池的設備"},{"start":1682.518,"end":1693.205,"text":"那在與這個速發部的合作部分鑑於這個三資業者協助這個詐團涉嫌這個洗錢等案那本局與這個速產署"},{"start":1695.104,"end":1718.712,"text":"加強有關情資的交換以及行政監理的合作在有關金管會的部分本局與金管會啟動跨部會虛擬資產的合作機制提升行政及查緝的效率其次報告太子集團涉債案的調查目前的概況因為本案在偵查中以下的報告內容經檢察官同意向貴委員會報告"},{"start":1720.634,"end":1726.949,"text":"本局洗錢防治處從108年起陸續有接獲銀行申報的案官的金融資料"},{"start":1728.155,"end":1752.825,"text":"並且都先後的沿邊的加值金融情報二十六件來分送給相關的機關然後逐步的勾勒出太子集團在台的組織架構還有成員的身份金融帳戶以及持有資產的狀況那本案這個美方在十月八號起訴陳志等八人並且美國財政部的外國資產管制辦公室在十月十四號"},{"start":1754.545,"end":1774.515,"text":"對陳志等146個目標實施制裁包含三家台灣的公司以及三名國人北檢在10月15號指揮本局的台北市調處還有刑事局分工本案在10月24號向台北地院申請扣押不動產車輛還有銀行的帳戶並且在27號獲得法官的裁准"},{"start":1779.918,"end":1792.405,"text":"那全案在專案小組11月4號發動偵辦以後目前正在全力的擴大來清查涉及有關黑道還有政治獻金以及其他的共患"},{"start":1793.444,"end":1822.959,"text":"那在持續的進行這個情資的交換中那其次報告有關這個參考新加坡打炸邊形路法的可行性則上帶從國內的行事政策人道人權保障以及這個民意所向等各個層面來進行更多的討論以後再行考量以上報告敬請指教好 謝謝沈區長那接下來我們請行政院打炸中心的指揮官馬世元次長"},{"start":1830.482,"end":1846.81,"text":"主席委員以及各位先進大家早安行政院打擊炸機指揮中心針對今日有關列席貴委員會報告太子集團涉案以及跨部會防炸及打炸相關成效以及邊形入法可行性評估"},{"start":1847.979,"end":1870.865,"text":"進行說明第一有關於跨部會打詐的部分行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的工作主要是針對跨部會的協調機制利用數據分析來找出潛在的問題並且做提前部署所以目前我們在工作上主要是跨部會的打擊詐欺的決策會議以及跟地方政府定期召開聯席的打擊詐欺的協調聯繫匯報"},{"start":1872.985,"end":1890.507,"text":"那麼地方政府的同仁也對中央在執行各項打擊詐欺的政策以及地方執行的成效互相交換意見那麼在過去從今年開始我們到10月底我們總共在降伏的部分"},{"start":1891.748,"end":1906.361,"text":"總共在財損的部分降低49.9%那麼在數據的部分降低24.6%具體的數字看來是呈現有效的而且具體在持續下降那麼有關於太子集團的部分"},{"start":1907.608,"end":1927.41,"text":"目前有檢察官指揮辦案當中但是以太子集團的個案來說包括對於殭屍公司的清查我們目前跟經濟部已經在進行協調未來對於公司設立以及公司的金流的部分那麼會研擬後續的一個管制措施的一個強化那麼以及"},{"start":1928.211,"end":1953.196,"text":"行政院洗錢房子辦公室在預警監管的部分也會跟本中心共同來合作那麼至於有關於新加坡引入打詐邊行入法的部分這部分我們尊重主管機關的決定那結語的部分就是本中心持續會進行對於阻斷詐騙生態系繼續努力那麼也會跟各部會來持續合作謝謝主席"},{"start":1955.407,"end":1959.56,"text":"好 謝謝次長接下來我們請內政部警政署張署長"},{"start":1966.636,"end":1993.244,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好那有關太子集團的這個炸雞的查取的作為部分那這個案目前是由地檢組指揮本局刑事局跟調局在做指揮偵辦那已經有啟動這個兩波的行動分別在十月四號五號以及昨天的十一月八號那這個案還持續在做偵辦當中那至於我們打造的這個相關的成效剛剛我們馬指揮"},{"start":1995.385,"end":2011.484,"text":"關於就做說明那可以顯從去年的十月的炸氣案件到今年的十月每個月的這個發生數大概在去年大概十月在一萬八千件那今年十月大概一萬三千件那金額大概"},{"start":2012.505,"end":2030.361,"text":"降了大概差不多有快50%左右案件降了差不多24%有略渐有往下走了這樣的一個狀況不過我們還是有非常大的努力的一個空間具體的這個狀況就是說有一些源頭"},{"start":2031.562,"end":2043.188,"text":"譬如講像跟line的這個部分從今年度大概就是下架的社詐廣告有7.3萬則另外對於社詐的通團會的社詐門號大概有斷了4400多通社外的一個境外詐騙大概有323萬餘件"},{"start":2051.312,"end":2069.249,"text":"那金流的主詐跟金融機構今年1月到10月份主詐大概117億那對於這個電子這個通報聯防機制上線之後在最短時間人頭賬戶的通報的警示的通報率可以達到93%那我們自己本身檢診所執行"},{"start":2071.892,"end":2083.554,"text":"已經有三波的一個全國性的打炸大概差的這個集團有兩千四百多團超過了金額金額有三十五億嫌犯了一萬四千名那現在正第四波在打炸當中"},{"start":2085.017,"end":2100.267,"text":"那另外對於這個被害人的這個保護部分今年1月到10月有3.3萬件有7成的被害人通知遭射照停組匯款成功攔阻到1.7多億那另外我們從這個打造的部分應該是"},{"start":2102.249,"end":2129.449,"text":"各單位大概可以從打雜儀表本來看每天的這個趨勢這個我們也公開整個打雜的一個狀況跟這個成效那至於banning的部分剛剛不管這法務部也有做報告這個就是可能牽涉到憲法或兩公約的這相關大概政法意見都有目前正在研議那有這個部分是屬於法務部跟大院的權責我們未來看看怎麼樣我們來做一個一個研議來做執行"},{"start":2131.07,"end":2139.305,"text":"做以上的一個報告 謝謝好 謝謝署長那最後請司法院的李大任廳長報告 謝謝"},{"start":2144.791,"end":2171.173,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天貴委員會召開本次的專案報告本院奉邀前來深感榮幸這就本院業務有關的部分提出意見進行指教有關太子集團涉案的部分就法院只有目前是受理強制處分的部分目前有檢察官在附訓之後有申請五位被告羈押那有四位四位我們法院有准許羈押另外一位交保"},{"start":2172.146,"end":2183.844,"text":"那交保部分檢察官雖然提起勘告那高原認為說原先沒有篡政之虞也沒有積壓必要予以駁回那另外其他的被告部分檢察官互訊之後就已經預定交保了"},{"start":2184.532,"end":2204.317,"text":"又有關於打炸跟防炸的策進作為部分我們除了持續在開設相關炸機跟量型的課程之外目前大概從109年到現在大概有7000多人受訓我們也引導了量型的妥適性跟相關的一些釋法量型的妥適以及法律的正確適用"},{"start":2205.337,"end":2215.646,"text":"那我們可以從數據觀察從109年到104年我們可以看得出來我們的量性已經逐步在提升以339條之四加重詐欺為例判兩年以上的從原先109年的0.43%已經提高到7點多%但是雖然我們還是繼續在引導適當的量性"},{"start":2226.616,"end":2251.569,"text":"那就我們另外就裁判沒收金額的部分那109年大概比較少大概就幾千萬那目前到14年1月到9月我們統計出來現在已經有22億的沒收的金額那我們逐漸在做一些相關的事量刑跟裁判的一個正確性那另外在法律層面方面我們有"},{"start":2253.029,"end":2268.919,"text":"擴大我們的預防性羈押跟擴大獨任制審判的範圍我們希望是透過預防性羈押的擴大來嚇阻犯罪跟一般預防的效果另外有關於"},{"start":2271.534,"end":2297.317,"text":"編刑入法的部分剛剛法務部還有其他各部會的先進已經報告過我們意見跟他們一樣所以我這邊不再做追溯因為編刑雖然在自古以來在世界各地雖然都有編刑但是從近代來講認為在世界人權宣言跟公正公約的相關規定明確禁止酷刑之下大部分的國家都已經放棄編刑"},{"start":2298.658,"end":2310.82,"text":"那邊境還有一個就是以暴制暴的一些復仇的特性跟現在刑法目的跟強調教育型的體制之下可能不太相符這部分我們要審慎評估以上進行指教好 謝謝那麼接下來就是其餘的機關有提出書面報告者還有沒有要口頭補充的"},{"start":2324.722,"end":2348.701,"text":"沒有的話我們就會將相關的書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄緊接著我們就開始進行詢答那麼本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們就先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員詢答 謝謝"},{"start":2355.717,"end":2369.026,"text":"好 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長以及金管會今天是銀行局局長來嗎來 有請局長好 請幾位機關的長官來到請盤 謝謝"},{"start":2373.763,"end":2390.735,"text":"好 三位好時間的關係不一一問候太子集團啊這個跨國詐欺己前的集團的案子啊 切漏了以後我想台灣社會啊非常的震驚也讓全體的國人啊開始問一件事我們的政府"},{"start":2391.876,"end":2406.908,"text":"講打詐國家隊講得很大聲實際上對在我國境內所從事的這麼大規模集團的詐欺也好幫忙洗錢也好卻是渾然不覺"},{"start":2408.189,"end":2427.322,"text":"等到10月8號美國聯邦檢察官對陳志等人提起公訴了以後14號美國的財政部宣布制裁那個時候變成公開的資訊引發台灣社會軒然我們的北檢才在15號匆匆的分案當然這個消息出來了以後"},{"start":2431.906,"end":2450.849,"text":"台灣的人民非常的震驚舉國花瀾同時也對我們的打炸國家隊到底在幹嘛大家是充滿了非常多的困惑不過也沒有關係當政府出事的時候我們的綠媒很快就幫忙大內宣了"},{"start":2451.77,"end":2466.783,"text":"大內宣是什麼本報掌握我國調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪也持續跟美國進行情報交換我每一個字都是源於媒體上面所說的"},{"start":2467.623,"end":2482.201,"text":"來先請教一下調查局局長他說調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪所謂很早就掌握是什麼時候掌握本案大概在108年銀行有陸續申報108年就掌握了"},{"start":2482.581,"end":2510.603,"text":"不是委員聽我說他108年銀行有陸續申報一些可疑的交易那我們就從108年開始我們也陸續有經過銀行的申報以後我們有延編了一些金融的情資分送給這個相關的執法機關以及我們的國際的所謂相關的執法機關是誰包含調查局包含那個調查局不就是你們自己你們自己分送給自己喔對那個洗錢防治署它是一個金融情報中心它不是一個辦案單位是"},{"start":2512.234,"end":2531.595,"text":"所以就分給你們自己調查局嗎也有警政署的部分然後也有警政署嗎然後也有國際友方的部分然後呢對 所以就是透過這樣子的一個金融情質逐步的建構我們才發現說這個集團在我們國內你們什麼時候發現了這個可能要在110年以後110年發現了110年以後 是"},{"start":2535.083,"end":2555.025,"text":"那最后为什么是美国联邦的检察官破案因为本案其实如果委员有注意媒体本案其实是一个很大型的一个跨国的一个诈骗的犯罪其实他的总部是在柬埔寨并不是在我们台湾我们台湾的部分是他以前藏匿资产的一个请你听我讲话好吗"},{"start":2555.626,"end":2573.181,"text":"我不是請你上來演講的請你針對問題回答就好了你等一下就會知道我為什麼會問時間問得這麼具體啊剛你說110年你們就開始發現有問題剛我問題的重點我沒有期待你們去破獲總部在柬埔寨的炸雞集團"},{"start":2575.069,"end":2592.039,"text":"我關心的是什麼在台灣的犯罪行為調查局掌握了情資也分給情資給各個執法機關開始進行調查接下來到底做了什麼事為什麼我會這麼關心那個不是只有事後大內宣的問題"},{"start":2593.24,"end":2618.843,"text":"是在中間的這個過程當中大家關心的是我們所謂的執法機關到底做了什麼事台灣人民看到的是什麼台灣人民看到的是原來要等到美國的聯邦檢察官起訴了以後我們才匆匆的分案才開始去做強制處分這個時序我沒有捏造"},{"start":2620.345,"end":2642.557,"text":"所以大家會關心嘛關心如果調查局早就掌握的話從110年就掌握啦我們110年持續的掌握然後掌握了以後有分送情資而且在我們的調查局大家共同的努力之下幫助美國聯邦的檢察官破獲這個大型的跨國炸雞洗錢集團圍堵"},{"start":2645.97,"end":2672.778,"text":"針對在台灣境內的犯罪唯獨針對在台灣境內的犯罪等到人家動作了以後我們才後知後覺我為什麼問這個問題2019年4月詐騙集團密集的購置豪宅掩飾不法資金2019年7月太子集團在台灣的負責人張剛耀高調的受訪這個全部都是客觀的資訊"},{"start":2675.253,"end":2702.742,"text":"到2021年的時候檢警偵辦境外賭博網站的案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人就是張剛耀就是張剛耀這是2021年不起訴處分確定現在我有一點看不懂如果你們在2020年陸陸續續就掌握了這些情資怎麼這個張剛耀當初這個境外賭博網站的案件會不起訴"},{"start":2705.781,"end":2733.949,"text":"這個大牛啊 科技有限公司就是 來來來張剛耀在台灣你們報告上面設立了這九家公司最下面一個就是大牛科技啊那在你們調查局早就掌握到了情資甚至分送情資的情況下結果張剛耀我們的檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件結果他會不起訴處分確定"},{"start":2736.448,"end":2764.793,"text":"那不僅僅是賭博網站的問題還有背後洗錢網絡的問題所以我現在覺得很狐疑啊你們早就掌握到了情資那這個案子是怎麼辦的誰要回答是你不知道還是發生了什麼事還是檢察官辦案不力還是你們有把情資給地檢署 地檢署沒有掌握"},{"start":2766.19,"end":2780.963,"text":"包委員 這個部分其實是這個太子集團它裡面內訌的問題不是啊 內訌是下一個案子他們裡面的人自己出來告這個張綱耀對不起喔 分兩個部分太子集團內訌是下一個案子"},{"start":2781.932,"end":2804.19,"text":"這是前面的案子你剛講的所謂內訌是下一個案子告侵佔的問題從台灣這邊匯走了9億的資金這是第二個案子我還沒有問到第二個案子請你看清楚這是第一個案子第一個案子是大牛科技有限公司為什麼我會點大牛科技有限公司"},{"start":2805.111,"end":2826.63,"text":"就是你們這是點名的這九家公司其中一個大牛科技有限公司負責人這九家公司負責人全部都是張剛耀我為什麼說我問你時間點是有具體的原因的你們說你們早就掌握了早就掌握了也分送了情資啊那我現在看不懂啊看不懂"},{"start":2828.326,"end":2850.976,"text":"這個已經是境外賭博網站的案件境外賭博網站的案件在我們打詐的偵查上面通常會跟洗錢掛在一起處理嗎這個案子是發生什麼事你們真的早就掌握了嗎真的早就掌握了那是這個檢察官在辦這個案子的時候太廢嗎怎麼會這樣呢"},{"start":2856.826,"end":2883.481,"text":"包委員 這個案子不是我們調查局受理的所以跟你們沒有關係來 那個警政署署長不是啊 因為現在事情鬧得很大了嘛然後檢察官也收網了嘛到處去搜索嘛 扣押該申請羈押的人也申請羈押了那我們現在回溯來看嘛到底發生了什麼事因為台灣社會很關心啊"},{"start":2884.622,"end":2906.224,"text":"我們投入了這麼多資源成立打炸國家隊相關媒體的內宣也從來沒少過出了這麼大的事情以後調查局對社會說沒有 我們不是不知不覺我們早就發現了還提供情資因為我們提供了情資導致可以破獲這麼大的集團"},{"start":2907.591,"end":2928.094,"text":"我越看越不懂啊那如果是這個樣子的話先不要講我們提供的情資對美國的破案幫助有多大有幫助就好善盡國際社會打擊犯罪一份子的責任但怎麼對我們自己境內的事情麻木不仁 不知不覺警政署後來有去了解嗎"},{"start":2929.67,"end":2953.517,"text":"那個包委員那對於剛剛所講這個調查局就是說有提供我們這邊大概在110年有5件的這個金流的這個狀況那我們也有去做分析啦那去做分析就是說不好意思啊署長剛剛你可能在下面有恍神我的問題你沒問聽清楚請你看螢幕這個案子"},{"start":2955.356,"end":2977.957,"text":"2021年檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人張剛耀不起訴確定剛調查局說這個案子不是他們辦的如果不是調查員辦的 鐵定就是警察辦的總不可能檢察官自己下去辦吧那跟委員報告 因為這個案辦了這個結果也是有做起訴"},{"start":2979.5,"end":3001.934,"text":"對啊但是張剛耀沒有起訴啊你們下面的工程師都起訴上面的負責人把他放掉這就是我看不懂的啊這可能是證據上的連結的問題證據上連結的問題那現在就來啦如果調查局早就發現了相關的情資也分送了結果在我們境內"},{"start":3003.177,"end":3018.134,"text":"在我們境內早就破獲了太子集團下面境外賭博網站的案件了但是國人看到的是什麼國人看到的是這個集團重要的成員張剛耀不起訴處分確定剛剛電話局局長說"},{"start":3022.543,"end":3043.605,"text":"後來是黑吃黑 搬錢搬了9億 鬧內訌跑掉了他怎麼在台灣這樣洗錢洗9億啊這是我們後續要去追金管會的問題但我現在的問題是完全看不懂 完全看不懂這是在我們境內的案子 調查局也說早就掌握了"},{"start":3044.462,"end":3071.877,"text":"然後也開始進行調查了開始進行情搜了結果搞了半天我們2021年有沒有辦過太子集團的案子有辦過啊怎麼會沒辦過張靚耀的案子就辦過啦但大家看到辦的結果是什麼工程師起訴負責人沒事那負責人沒事以後才發生剛剛局長我說講的第二個案子嘛黑吃黑嘛"},{"start":3072.981,"end":3087.926,"text":"黑吃黑了以後搬了9億走現在被通緝當中2021年的案子到底發生了什麼事情我本來以為這個案子現在鬧得這麼大現在鬧得這麼大我們相關的執法部門會回溯去看在這幾年的期間當中我們到底做了什麼事案件辦的結果是什麼"},{"start":3101.192,"end":3110.078,"text":"但是從今天各位在詢答上面的表現上來看顯然是沒有做到這件事時間的關係最後來請教金管會調查局一直說有相關的洗錢通報媒體下標是洗錢通報52次然後銀行局說你們會約詢相關銀行檢視是否善盡反洗錢的責任現在結果是什麼"},{"start":3130.892,"end":3145.986,"text":"委員報告我們有做初步的金融檢查這10家金融機構他們在洗錢通報的過程裡面大概都有依照我們相關的規定進行相關的通報所以通報完了以後還是沒有辦法達到防治的效果嗎"},{"start":3147.688,"end":3173.744,"text":"從銀行局的觀點來看是發生什麼事情在我們洗錢房市的分工上面金融機構一定要去做有效的這個疑似可疑交易的這個我了解那現在我的問題是說我們做疑似洗錢通報的目的是要防止洗錢嘛在前端的時候先管制嘛那我現在的疑問是洗錢的通報高達52次剛剛按照局長所講的銀行該做的都有做嘛"},{"start":3174.941,"end":3199.062,"text":"銀行該做的都有做嘛在洗錢房子上面銀行該做的都有做那顯然這個洗錢房子的通報根本沒有辦法達到前端的效果沒有辦法達到前不管是預防還是偵測的效果局長你覺得我說的有錯嗎因為我覺得很困惑啦因為洗錢房子的通報利益良善"},{"start":3200.714,"end":3223.409,"text":"但是在第一端的時候常常造成一般的公民很大的困擾一般的公民做一些事情那大家也知道搞得這麼麻煩是為了要落實洗錢防治大家也盡量配合但我現在的問題來了整個社會其實付出蠻高的代價跟成本在幫忙做這件事"},{"start":3226.363,"end":3239.012,"text":"那在太子集團的這個案子裡面有洗錢房子的通報 通報52次銀行端也善盡了責任那但最後看起來是沒有什麼成效銀行局對這件事情有什麼想法"},{"start":3240.023,"end":3263.615,"text":"因為我們畢竟是整個洗房機制的一環那在金融機構的部分他有散盡他洗房衣物的通報那當然如果說相關的有一些那個情資的分享當然金融機構在做相關金流的這個阻擋也會更有效率所以像這一次我們有接到檢方的一個通報我們馬上就把相關的帳戶給凍結起來好最後一個問題不好意思最後一個問題來有請刑事廳廳長"},{"start":3270.286,"end":3291.204,"text":"這個案子我們的法務部部長雖然通常說那個行政部門對個案不介入 不干涉 不評論這個是禮拜一法務部的書面報告寫的對個案不介入 不干涉 不評論但是太子集團的案子太大了我們的行政院卓榮泰院長都評論了"},{"start":3292.509,"end":3316.396,"text":"雖然是個案他也是評論 因為有委員問他說參效女助理15萬交保卓榮泰怒批法院輕放 重錯打詐士氣這個是卓榮泰講的卓榮泰是選擇性的在個案裡面會發表他的評論他怒批法院輕放 司法院有沒有什麼話要說"},{"start":3319.248,"end":3345.467,"text":"這是個案喔那對法院的核心裁定我們原則上我們就以尊重平常尤其是你完全搞不清楚狀況遇到左翁他也不敢講喔這個部分喔15萬交保是誰交保的上次在上個禮拜我們副秘書長在答詢的時候就已經說出來了這個留存欲的部分是由檢方在訓控交保的跟法院有關係"},{"start":3347.213,"end":3355.998,"text":"還在那邊核心的裁定你不評論法院有做裁定嗎裁定在哪裡裁定在哪裡"},{"start":3359.523,"end":3368.365,"text":"然後卓榮泰怒批法院侵犯撞錯打詐士氣我現在沒有問你啊你急著趕快出來幫卓榮泰洗地喔對啊 我有請你上來回答嗎我有請你上來回答嗎我現在是請司法院表達他的意見我有請法務部部長回答嗎"},{"start":3389.927,"end":3397.473,"text":"所以嘛卓榮泰怒批就不對嘛不管是法院15案還是檢察官15案這是個案欸行政院院長怎麼可以怒批"},{"start":3417.591,"end":3441.888,"text":"重挫打詐士氣還是法務部的立場要看誰怒批如果是院長怒批院長好棒棒超級有魄力啊院長代表我們的行政團隊代表行政團隊表達政府的立場但是如果是別人怒批這是個案我們不評論"},{"start":3443.154,"end":3469.351,"text":"不介入 不干涉尊重法院的裁定尊重檢察官的裁定雙標至極啊雙標至極啊沒有雙標啦這個本來就是依照回到事務的本質再處理是嘛 沒有錯啊你要趕快跟院長報告啊報告院長這要按照事務的本質來處理我們要尊重法院的裁定要尊重檢察官的裁定請院長息怒"},{"start":3470.629,"end":3478.436,"text":"不要隨便怒批重犯那個檢察官已經按照那個依照那個法院的一個裁定我們做一個事實的一個主張嘛"},{"start":3479.71,"end":3488.976,"text":"不好意思喔我現在在講的是你應該跟左榮泰講的啊然後結果你是想到不知道要講什麼隨便上來講兩句話來舔嗎所以我說左榮泰不能夠怒批法院重放我說左榮泰罵錯人了這樣也有錯左榮泰真的罵錯人啊"},{"start":3506.158,"end":3526.689,"text":"他罵法院幹嘛法院從來沒做裁定啊卓榮泰罵完了以後台北地院司法院還發新聞稿耶寫得很客氣啦但是翻成白話文我跟大家翻譯一下報告院長你罵錯人啦法官從來沒有做裁定好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"},{"start":3536.087,"end":3539.348,"text":"好 那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部調查局還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心還有內政部警政署 謝謝"},{"start":3563.884,"end":3570.906,"text":"有請法務部部長嗎不用那部長請你先休息法務部調查局請陳局長還有法指揮官好 謝謝主席我今天還是想要針對我們國內在打炸這件事情上其實真的已經有非常多進步因為其實國際的炸氣案件也好或是國內炸氣案件層出不窮我們甚至有看過有相關的人員對外說過台灣十一是一個練兵場"},{"start":3592.631,"end":3610.562,"text":"因為如果在台灣行得通在全世界有行得通我覺得非常遺憾但是我要先謝謝第一線的同仁這個是165打架儀表板的數字我們來看一下這幾個月以來其實詐騙案件跟財產損失的部分都有下降這個真的是因為第一線同仁等一下我要講哪一些同仁大家拼了命"},{"start":3611.418,"end":3627.213,"text":"這個做出來的成果我要真的非常感謝要拜託各位長官也要繼續支持第一線的同仁們給予他們鼓勵而實質的鼓勵可以有哪些呢我們來看一下這個紀錄片我不知道各位長官有沒有看過但是我跟我辦公室都看過是我們先在相關媒體上發現的"},{"start":3628.354,"end":3651.137,"text":"那我還看了兩次喔這裡面其實揭露了非常多165接線員的日常生活我想這個指揮官一定非常清楚對不對他們的日常生活那其實我其實想要來幫我們爭取一件事情指揮官你聽聽看如果按照他們這個排班的時間然後他們甚至有說出什麼樣的時段通常是什麼樣的詐騙案件例如說老人家比較多在早上"},{"start":3651.736,"end":3677.291,"text":"會在家接電話所以可能比較多是早上針對老人家詐騙然後到中午是什麼到晚上是什麼其實他們講得非常的清楚那甚至我們看到這個紀錄片裡面他還說到他們有時候騎車騎一騎好像都覺得有幻聽有電話打來這樣我其實之前幫他們爭取過一次就是我們有沒有辦法針對這些165接線員給予更多的身心健康支持服務我想問一下指揮官"},{"start":3679.491,"end":3697.105,"text":"委員長我們目前已經有進行勤前的那個心理諮商跟勤後的心理諮商是每一天嗎還是那個頻率是什麼還是沒關係你們回去整理我們再來討論對於他的這個心理諮商我們大概就是每個月都會定期來做辦理這樣的一個諮商"},{"start":3699.369,"end":3720.248,"text":"那署長這樣好不好因為我認為那個頻率也許會超過各位長官們的想像或是他們的需求可不可以我們會後再來討論或是我們再跟你們要相關資料我們看一看立法院的預算這邊或者是長官們你們可以怎麼去想像對於這些第一線接線員的支持好不好尤其在身心健康諮詢的部分"},{"start":3721.189,"end":3738.283,"text":"那除了這些接線員的日常我看到你們的報告裡面提到非常多人其實都在第一線包含超商啊郵局啊銀行的工作人員那當然還包括如果詐欺案件成立之後檢警相關調查單位的人員或是後續司法的人其實都在第一線為我們大家服務"},{"start":3738.863,"end":3758.624,"text":"那這個部分我想我要在這裡公開對他們至上層次的感謝因為這件事情真的非常重要如果沒有他們在第一線承擔這些業務跟協助民眾我認為我們的詐騙案件應該只會越來越高絕對不會出現儀表板向的往下可是我們還是看到一些困境跟問題要拜託各位掌柜我們一起來討論第一個"},{"start":3759.925,"end":3776.956,"text":"關於詐騙案件還是很多這件事情可是我們來看一下這個數字這個公開的數字是根據法務統計專輯裡面那我們辦公室的同仁自己整理出來資料我們來看一下綠色的線是代表詐欺案件偵查終結的案件數這是綠色的紙條那藍色這個線是檢察官平均每一個月辦理結案的件數我們可以看到"},{"start":3785.422,"end":3806.506,"text":"当终结案件越来越多的时候其实检察官的平均每个月结案件数也是越来越多而这里面我相信包含了大量的诈欺案件对不对对这个数字应该是这样的如果没有错的话是这样的话我来跟各位讨论一下相关的数字我们看到在你们相关的报道里面统计表格里面呢"},{"start":3808.83,"end":3830.679,"text":"113年總共詐欺案件偵查終結案件數是13萬件111年到了112年偵查終結來到16萬件到了113年來到13萬件也就是說每一年有這麼多案件其實是被偵查終結結束也就是第一線的同仁真的拼了命"},{"start":3831.599,"end":3853.801,"text":"想要辦完這些案件讓相關的受害人得到一個撫慰得到一個公平正義所以我相信檢警的壓力應該壓力山大對不對來看一下可是除了檢警案件的體系之外我發現法院應該也非常的辛苦我們甚至看到有一個律師他協助"},{"start":3854.673,"end":3873.185,"text":"他的當事人去開庭然後這個是他真實自己寫出來的他說法官一來就開砲說詐欺案多到審不完他對被害人有些喊話這個法官寫的我就不再說了不過律師提醒我們律師說其實不管你是被害人"},{"start":3874.185,"end":3889.313,"text":"或者你是什麼樣的情況下其實這些人被害已經是很慘了那當然我們可能會覺得他們不夠謹慎可是更多的時候其實是因為他們不知道他們正在面臨所謂的詐騙案件事件的發生就如同等一下我們來舉個例子"},{"start":3890.333,"end":3909.851,"text":"那右邊還有一個貼文他說呢朋友在法院工作去年他就說前年他們一個人經手的詐騙案件就一千一百多件今年過年的時候遇到他說去年一千四百件我自己有朋友在檢調系統上班他跟我說他們有一年收到的案件同一個案件裡面的被害人就五千多人"},{"start":3910.632,"end":3936.166,"text":"五百多還是五千多我聽到非常非常的驚訝所以我可以想見在台灣這個現場我們的詐騙案件真的與日俱增而且是塞爆所以我剛剛為什麼要替第一線的同仁說話我認為當很多立法院委員就只有在指責這些人的時候或是交辦更多業務的時候其實沒有看見是第一線的同仁都已經被這些詐騙案件業務量塞爆塞滿我相信他們無止盡的加班都只是為了想要把這些案件辦完好"},{"start":3937.948,"end":3940.341,"text":"那接下來我想要談另外一個事情"},{"start":3943.129,"end":3968.707,"text":"從檢警到法官疲於奔命我剛剛已經講了 所有在第一線都是這樣檢警 法官 再更早165專線可是到了感化這邊 收容機構這邊一樣都被詐欺犯塞滿包含在少年矯正學校裡面或是少關所裡面全部佔了三分之一都是詐欺犯就連我左手邊這一張傷害罪跟竊盜罪加起來都不如詐欺罪"},{"start":3969.347,"end":3990.828,"text":"而右手邊這張呢 哨官所收容的第一名也都是詐欺犯也就是說我們看到因為詐騙案件從第一線的165專線然後到警察 到檢調 到司法 到最後的矯正收容都跟詐騙案有關各位長官我想問一下我們的人力要不要調整 要怎麼調整你們有沒有相關的方案"},{"start":3994.748,"end":4011.638,"text":"有辦法調整嗎因為我真的很想幫這些第一線的人說說話就是說他們的日常業務量這麼大那我們有沒有調整人力的規劃或者可能性讓他們浪一點業務量不要這麼大然後有嗎"},{"start":4015.222,"end":4035.95,"text":"沒有就沒有 真的沒有嗎都沒有署長要不要幫我們同仁爭取一下什麼我想這剛剛說得很有道理這是我們現在工作的日常大概有百分之六十都在偵辦這些的詐欺案件那對於這個人力上不管是從機場的拍手或偵查隊甚至到那個刑事那個刑警大隊或刑事局"},{"start":4036.65,"end":4051.556,"text":"大概我們現在的治安面裡面大概面臨大概就是只有這個炸機那人力的部分確實是非常的吃緊那未來是怎麼樣的這樣的人力的這個擴編我想也在想辦法來做尤其就是刑事人員的這個警力的擴編來做一個來做這樣的一個努力"},{"start":4055.137,"end":4081.476,"text":"好 那指揮官呢我們165這邊有沒有機會增加更多人然後減輕第一線同仁的負擔我們現在165今年在10月份我們完成法制化所以我們人力的部分未來會進入一個實質上有邊組的人力那這個部分我們會跟刑事局再來協調去支援他們包括說辦公室 辦公廳社我們現在也打算要搬遷"},{"start":4082.537,"end":4098.815,"text":"太好了因為我看到那個紀錄片那個工作環境真的是太悲欺了太悲苦了因為他們接到的電話都是悲苦的案件電話有的已經是被騙了有的即將被騙有的是打電話來查證相關謠言所以法治化之後的相關配置你們什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":4100.316,"end":4119.386,"text":"報告委員我們在這個月28號我們會正式掛牌是那掛牌之後我們希望在明年的時候能夠找到新的辦公場所是那目前已經在進行我也希望立法院要支持相關預算我們一定會支持我們也希望各個各黨委員都要一起支持165專線那個紀錄片也歡迎大家去看鼓勵大家去看好 謝謝指揮官"},{"start":4120.046,"end":4145.736,"text":"好 那第二個其實要講的是境外詐騙這件事情其實我們看到非常多境外詐騙的案例可是境外詐騙可能相關的數字不管是你們給我們的報告裡面說的境外詐騙電話破譯通還有相關通訊軟體而且我認為案件數量絕對不止可是我認為境外詐騙才是最難工作的一端 對嗎因為它牽扯到跟國際上不同國家的合作更不要講什麼樣國際案件例如說第一種問題叫做"},{"start":4147.516,"end":4168.61,"text":"調查跟追緝上的難度例如說他用人頭賬戶他用網路跳板他用VPN 對嗎好 那我們台灣的檢調單位要如何跨國進行調查我覺得很難第二個 假設真的抓到了跨國我們找到的人司法上可被管轄這應該也是第二個問題例如說A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙這要怎麼追查"},{"start":4169.871,"end":4179.945,"text":"A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙 這個應該也非常難追查第三個 我們應該很多國家都沒有辦法進行司法合作 對嗎這個部分可不可以 誰可以回答"},{"start":4181.075,"end":4204.601,"text":"委員現在所講的這個跨境的這個炸機確實有一些需要再去做突破的地方那也是比較有直接的有困難不管是在這個嫌犯的查解或者是在這個相關有一些是沒有邦交的這個國家那你們通常怎麼做那我們有多透過鄰近友善的國家來做這樣的一個一個相關的一個協助可是相關負責人力應該也不多吧"},{"start":4204.781,"end":4229.967,"text":"我們鄰近的 比如講像柬埔寨跟泰國跟緬甸這一些有一些是我們比較有困難的地方鄰近的有一些國家可以來做協助幫忙我們派駐外面的聯絡官也會做這樣的一個聯繫也會做這一些相關的一個案件的相關的協助"},{"start":4230.529,"end":4259.157,"text":"可是我們政治上其實本來就遇到很多外交的困難我相信這些政治上的外交應該也會延伸到司法調查的外交困難對不對對 這個部分應該是有在做努力的一個地方好 我只能說真的非常謝謝第一線的同仁尤其在跨國的詐騙案這件事情我認為相關難度絕對比境內還要高如果有任何你們覺得在立法院的預算端或是人力資源端可以協助的也拜託你們要如實的提出來好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員最後一個我要講防詐宣導"},{"start":4260.55,"end":4288.157,"text":"這個案子你們應該都知道對不對龍山寺前面花一千元買個資後來呢這個嫌犯原來他的動機是因為他好像是要去買什麼爬沁狗對對對他好像是去買爬沁狗這個點數還是什麼的這樣可是我認為持續宣導這件事情非常的重要因為現在每一個人雖然大家好像以為都有手機好像每個人都有LINE帳號好像每個人都會上網好像每個人都會看新聞好像每個人都會看報紙"},{"start":4288.817,"end":4305.568,"text":"但是偏偏就還是有很多人他好像都不在這些資訊放送範圍之內他就是還是會到龍山寺這樣的案例前面拿他的雙證件去換取一千塊在防詐宣導的部分你們今年有沒有什麼新的想法跟作為我是說明年明年開始"},{"start":4307.757,"end":4330.026,"text":"因為就於傳統的管道我認為大家都清楚了跟委員報我們現在除了網路上的宣導之外我們現在還是針對傳統市場然後美容院以及宗教場所那我們現在都跟他們合作那未來我們跟包括超商還有咖啡廳這一些民眾消費的場所我們也會持續來合作"},{"start":4330.686,"end":4356.721,"text":"那我們今年已經開始在去年紅布條我們有第一批下去我們今年第二波再更新所以我們的重點第一個在去年是賴詐騙那在今年開始是假檢警的部分所以我們每一年我們有針對不同的主題那今年因為行政院有這個普發現金的這樣的一個政策所以我們今年對普發現金一萬塊我們也有進行相關的這樣的宣導"},{"start":4357.554,"end":4385.461,"text":"好那會後可不可以再麻煩你們把相關要進行不管是假檢警或是LINE或是剛剛指揮官您所說的美容院啊宗教場所啊超商啊咖啡店這些你們相關要進行的業務範圍可不可以再給我們辦公室一份報告可以可以好簡單的已經有了給我們就可以了讓我們知道到底深入民間我們還可以做哪些事情那我們辦公室當然也會持續協助收集民意到底還有哪多更多地方是人們有趣的但可能是你們漏掉的好嗎好的謝謝瑋瑜支持謝謝"},{"start":4388.612,"end":4392.716,"text":"好謝謝陳委員那接下來我們就請吳宗憲委員發言麻煩部長還有陳局長好麻煩鄭部長還有陳局長"},{"start":4416.827,"end":4421.52,"text":"兩位早安我們今天討論的一樣就是大家都知道這個洗錢集團 太子集團"},{"start":4422.591,"end":4446.271,"text":"我想洗錢我們都知道就是把原本可能有些涉案或一些來源不明的錢把它洗白但是洗錢它有一個前置犯罪並不是說今天財產來源不明或怎麼樣就構成犯罪它有一個前置犯罪所以我在想 我想請教一下局長就我國的洗錢防治規定很清楚它建立在一個前置犯罪之上"},{"start":4448.753,"end":4468.435,"text":"這個前置的犯罪包括詐欺賭博 逃漏稅等等的但這個部分你同意嗎我同意 我完全同意所以錢罪加洗錢這個是洗錢犯罪成立的一個構成要件這個應該沒有問題這一次我們看到太子集團的資料金管會送給我們本委員會的專利報告裡面有寫得很清楚"},{"start":4469.916,"end":4487.22,"text":"108年到現在有10家銀行對太子相關的公司申報了52次的可疑交易那櫃局呢也有發新聞稿澄清洗房處總共做了26份的分析報告送給友軍還有其他的地方嘛對不對這沒問題吧數據沒錯"},{"start":4489.841,"end":4506.389,"text":"那我想請教你一個最核心的問題這26份報告以及你們所收到的52次的可疑交易你們FIU有或是你們櫃局有沒有去報請檢察官指揮偵辦因為到美方通報之前"},{"start":4507.409,"end":4523.355,"text":"诚如刚刚那个委员讲的这个洗钱必须要有一个前置犯罪所以从那个银行端他来申报以后其实我们经过加值分析是逐步的去标定到底是哪些人可疑哪些可疑的资产在什么位置"},{"start":4523.995,"end":4548.384,"text":"對 所以這段時間其實是逐步的在標定然後另外一方面就是我們必須要去蒐證他的前置犯罪 前置犯罪在哪裡答案就是沒有 從108年到現在我們經歷過了52次由銀行的可疑交易的通報再加上我們的FIU有做了26份的分析報告但是並沒有向檢察官"},{"start":4549.604,"end":4571.682,"text":"報請指揮 這個結論應該沒錯在執行前要報請指揮法務部長 部長你當時也是北檢的檢察長現在的北檢檢察王俊麗也是以前的調查局局長我想請問一下到美方通報之前北檢或是檢察官有沒有分案調查過"},{"start":4574.25,"end":4596.003,"text":"這部分美方是沒有通報啦不是啦我說美方通報之前我們檢察官有沒有分案過 調查過這部分我沒有資料好 沒關係那因為剛剛那個調查局局長也有說沒有那個報警指揮我想檢察官應該也不會主動簽分出來辦部長我沒有在問你其他的問題啦我只問你第一個要釐清的"},{"start":4602.026,"end":4626.122,"text":"我們這麼多次的可疑通報這麼多次的分析報告我國的檢方有沒有啟動過調查我們剛剛得到的結論是調查局沒有報警指揮第二個我得到的結論也是北檢也沒有分案調查這個是我之前查的也是這樣這個是10月15號有分案嘛不是啦 我在跟你說美方通報之前啦這個是美方通報之前"},{"start":4626.653,"end":4655.152,"text":"報告委員必須澄清一下本案美方在執行的過程裡面不管是執行前或執行後都沒有通報在美方查辦之前好不好好那我們換個角度講在美方查破這個案子之前我們的調查局以及我國的檢方在經歷過銀行52次的可疑交易通報以及FIU26次的分析報告但是我國的調查局並沒有報請檢察官指揮"},{"start":4656.793,"end":4680.327,"text":"高委員在112年就是剛剛那個黃國昌委員那個提示的那個第二案我再問你下一個問題我跟你講啦因為這樣的結果是什麼我們人民看到的就是這麼大的事情美國也把它辦得很誇張查扣了這麼驚人巨額的那個電子貨幣查到這麼多的錢的情況下結果"},{"start":4681.187,"end":4707.95,"text":"結果我們這邊竟然沒有人發現人民只看到這個點人民不會去管你講了一堆的細節人民只看到原來我國這邊養了那麼大一群人是詐騙集團洗錢集團或什麼集團的人結果美方辦得如火如荼就我們沒有人知道好 人民看到的只是這樣在美方查辦這件事之前請問一下你們有在查辦嗎"},{"start":4708.77,"end":4736.769,"text":"如果說我們不知道的話我們沒有辦法在兩週之內就那你們知道又沒有辦法就更糟糕因為這是一個跨國的犯罪你曾經嗆過我說作弊不該抓嗎你曾經嗆過我這句話我永遠記在心裡謝謝你的指教但是美方都知道要查祖賢這些人在台灣設了那麼多那麼多他的買了那麼多資產結果我們這裡你說有啊我們有查我們有追蹤然後"},{"start":4738.7,"end":4763.823,"text":"然後呢 然後就沒有啊就是因為有掌握所以本案我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際同步同步在執行的包括美國 英國我以前常聽到的一句話新加坡 香港壞人不抓就沒有壞人犯罪我們不查就沒有犯罪黃城之內一片祥和委員不能是這樣說啦這個就是擁有掌握國際同步來 我再問一下"},{"start":4764.503,"end":4778.333,"text":"不要跟我說國際同步啦沒有查就沒有查人家查人家抓了那麼多人扣了那麼多錢然後呢你做了什麼就是因為有事前掌握得非常的精準所以才有然後都沒有報警檢察官指揮你騙我沒幹過檢察官喔"},{"start":4780.39,"end":4798.051,"text":"你調查局你立了一個案子你要查你不用找檢察官報紙灰嗎外面報紙不知道沒有錯啦你不要在那邊騙我你不要以為我沒當過檢察官嘛你報請紙灰到外面曝光這個中間多久我剛問你檢察官有沒有方案調查你們自己跟我說沒有然後現在又說有查"},{"start":4799.132,"end":4822.546,"text":"這個案子有兩次的報指揮 112年跟114年調查官在發現一個案子有問題的時候就會去報警檢察官指揮並不是什麼檢察官我跟你講你不用在那邊騙國人啦你要騙國人就算你不用在那邊騙我啦你調查官你今天發現有問題就會報警指揮中間有一些跟監監聽搜索等等的都要由檢察官來處理"},{"start":4826.417,"end":4837.42,"text":"還是你們兩位離開第一線偵查太久搞不清楚第一線偵查的狀況那就算了我們接下來問我想請問一下"},{"start":4840.305,"end":4859.102,"text":"媒體還有警政署的報告都有說太子集團是線上博弈起家的而且在台灣還有設立兩間博弈公司請問一下這段時間以來你們有沒有用賭博罪這個錢罪去查一下太子集團在台灣的金流請問一下局長以及部長"},{"start":4867.118,"end":4873.8,"text":"這個北檢有再增半鐘嗎這個北檢那另外那個太子級剛才那一件那個黃國昌委員那個是屬於"},{"start":4875.242,"end":4898.446,"text":"刑事局那個不是啦我問你們嘛不然雖然那個電話局我想請教一下你們有沒有用賭博去當作一個前置犯罪去調查這個大筆的資金這樣往來有沒有調查的過程裡面除了賭博以外還有就是詐欺這個都有"},{"start":4898.946,"end":4917.308,"text":"都有作為我們這個前置在調查不是啦 我是在問一下太子集團過往從美方偵查這個新聞報出來之前你們有沒有用因為這個太子集團一直有大額的資金進出嘛那你們有沒有用一個譬如說賭博或者是"},{"start":4918.169,"end":4938.615,"text":"逃漏稅等等的這個前置犯罪去了解一下這個錢是怎麼來來去去的這個是他交易的可疑的一個情況我們當然是依照這個可疑的前置犯罪來做這個資金不是 你們有沒有查跟不是 不要兜圈子你們有沒有用這個當作前置犯罪去開始去查這有沒有洗錢"},{"start":4940.63,"end":4969.052,"text":"我覺得我的問題很簡單又很直接但是每次我聽到的答案都是一直在繞我跟你們說也許你會說賭博不是我調查局的業務但是我跟你講你們在113年的洗錢防治工作年報裡面你們就寫得很清楚盈利賭博意圖盈利提供賭博場所或聚眾賭博這些聚眾賭博罪等等的你們還曾經寫過說賭博是常見的洗錢前置犯罪所以"},{"start":4970.186,"end":4988.555,"text":"還有一個啊 選舉賭盤你們最愛查我以前還收過 兩個人對賭而已喔然後你們就移送選舉賭盤那我看到的是什麼因為查去選舉賭盤是用選舉查查的積分所以大家瘋狂的辦結果呢 太子集團這個幾十億的這種你們就當作沒看到"},{"start":4989.535,"end":5013.105,"text":"就好像之前我又看到嘛我還記得國民黨在罷免連署案的時候你貴局長 局長你還故意把這個以前偽造文書不會列入選舉查查的核分您還非常好心的把這種連署的偽造文書把它提高到選舉查查的核分讓全國的調查官瘋狂的辦"},{"start":5014.54,"end":5034.905,"text":"那你就懂這一套玩法那你為什麼不把這個太子集團的這個賭博你就把它當作是選舉賭盤的案子來大量的合分來讓調查官辦呢所以我跟你講我覺得你們辦案子司法不要看顏色在辦案或看事情在辦案你這樣子搞國家真的不會進步"},{"start":5036.909,"end":5063.057,"text":"然後你也不要跟我說你有做過26份報告或什麼我跟你講你做了報告之後後面沒有查那這個不就跟那個股市投顧老師一樣嗎很會講啊電視上很會講啊跟他買的都賠錢啊那沒有效果嘛沒有績效那我現在看到的是你們做了很多的報告開了很多次的會26份的分析報告就沒有好的績效我跟你講那你知不知道現在詐欺是民怨第一名"},{"start":5063.797,"end":5092.817,"text":"如果今天是民怨第一名不要像剛剛的委員拿了一堆假數據來騙說你們做得好好好有效果現在檢察官 警察 調查官一堆被詐欺案件給淹沒搞得排擠到政察 其他襲案的調查我有多少錢的同事一直來跟我訴苦搞到大家不想幹法官不想幹檢察官了然後國人一直被騙你就一直不停的修正被詐金額的計算方式那看起來當然數據越來越漂亮"},{"start":5094.529,"end":5101.895,"text":"騙騙外行人可以啦我今天重點不在那裡那我也跟你們講過往你們發現很多錢進進出出"},{"start":5104.778,"end":5127.291,"text":"那這個就算沒有你找不到其他前置犯罪但是有不明的資金進出跟他公司這個法人的營業的狀況也不符的時候至少有一個點我們可以切入調查是不是有疑似逃稅或漏稅那你調查局就可以下去查有沒有疑似逃稅或漏稅或者是後面牽連的洗錢行為"},{"start":5128.872,"end":5141.754,"text":"並不是沒有辦法啟動嘛我幹甲官的話我一定會用這個理由來去了解狀況對 我完全同意委員所以這個可疑的疑似交易進來以後我們就是要想辦法去找出他的前置犯罪"},{"start":5143.058,"end":5156.724,"text":"這委員的邏輯完全跟我們是一樣不是啊 問題就是人民 我懂但是人民看到的就是沒有結果嘛那反而是美方那邊查到以後我們這邊才開始不是啊 沒有結果我們沒辦法在第一時間扣到這麼多的資產我跟你講大家2008年的時候那時候法務部派我"},{"start":5162.526,"end":5186.707,"text":"派我去上一個美國政府他們開一個反洗錢的訓練我記得當時調查局的人跟我一起去出國受訓的人我覺得他們都非常傑出所以後來APG來做我們反洗錢調查的時候其實我們的績效是非常棒的那不能這幾年開始就劣化了十幾年而已耶不到20年耶所以我們還是亞洲第一名啊不管啦我們現在是亞洲第一名啊對 但是詐騙案也是第一名啊"},{"start":5187.307,"end":5201.401,"text":"沒有 我們不能這樣講 這個委員你有數據嗎你有數據說我們詐騙是第一名嗎不是啊 那我跟你講太極集團你怎麼樣太極集團我們掌握啦 我們查獲啦我們詐騙是民怨第一名不是啊 詐騙是民怨第一名我跟你講部長如果你認為詐騙不是民怨第一名或你需要數據你就去問一下所有的人吧這委員您的數據 我們的數據我們不是第一名"},{"start":5211.051,"end":5226.778,"text":"我們洗錢方式是全國第一名對啦 部長我一直跟你講詐騙現在是民怨的第一名啦現在狀況是這樣子那你今天如果你要說申職之後這數據有問題那你去問一下媒體你去問一下做民調是不是詐騙就是我們現在民怨的第一名"},{"start":5228.119,"end":5250.155,"text":"我們現在那個案件整個查獲量跟整個一個財損量已經成下降趨勢了這個我們在各個單位的報告都是成這個趨勢我想這是一個事實我們必須要做一個說明你講給人民聽啦好不好部長你講給人民聽啦你講給人民你跟人民說我們國家反詐做得好棒好不好你去講給他們聽那你今天如果覺得很棒"},{"start":5251.616,"end":5278.176,"text":"我不知道反正你高興就好沒有 我沒有高興我們是說我們有在努力的空間我們一直很努力所以委內斯道現在檢警調大家對這個炸雞很努力在查總共10家銀行的52次通報還有多次的分析我看到的是完全沒有檢察官介入開始偵辦這個案子這個是一個不爭的事實那後續你要講一大堆有的沒有的我想沒有任何意義啦"},{"start":5279.94,"end":5303.211,"text":"這個就是重點 那人民現在對打詐剛剛我進來之前有記者找我去問他就拿了一個數據說現在人民對於政府打詐的不滿意度其實剛剛跟我講的數字很高我現在忘記了 數字非常高所以你們如果一直講自己很厲害 做得很好那隨便你們 但是我今天要反映給你們聽的民意告訴我 就是做得很不好"},{"start":5304.011,"end":5324.58,"text":"那美方今天已經查到這樣我們還要美方那邊查到了什麼他們事情爆那麼大我們這裡才第一次的開始分案調查北檢就是這樣的新聞稿啊北檢新聞稿就是這樣寫啊我們那個當過檢察官齁那分案調不是說今天明天就可以查到就是一定有提前的一個掌握嘛才有辦法你也知道要執行要訴訟要申請法院的一個核准"},{"start":5329.362,"end":5352.966,"text":"你現在講的就是在騙全國人民我沒有在騙全國人民那有沒有分他之案 你現在告訴我沒有分他之案的話 檢察官怎麼調查他有沒有辦法辦私案部長你現在騙人你知不知道你剛剛講說有怎麼樣然後才能分案那你告訴我啊 過往美方這個新聞出來之前檢方有沒有分他之案調查這個在10月15號就已經分案了"},{"start":5353.386,"end":5374.672,"text":"10月15號是美方事情爆出來之後我今天我跟你講 你們繼續再跟我兜圈子吧隨便你啦 部長部長 我現在一直問你有沒有他這案北檢的新聞稿寫得非常清楚在得知訊息之後隔天就分案如果你搞不清楚你自己去問啦"},{"start":5377.715,"end":5398.812,"text":"为什么我们的问题很直接那你就要你们永远答的都很模糊或者是程序上面你们在那边兜圈子在那边讲那些有的没有的我真的不懂你们到底在干什么我再问你们问题啦我跟你讲我今天在凸显的是"},{"start":5400.558,"end":5419.074,"text":"洗錢這一個很嚴重的問題在台灣已經越來越嚴重了那你今天一直講APG在我們國家的審查確實我們國家表現得不錯但是APG它的審查有非常多不同的項目但是我們自己在這一塊上面沒有做好讓人民不開心"},{"start":5420.54,"end":5449.451,"text":"我跟你講啦我在駕訓班我在監理站的考試考100分不代表我上路開車就開得好嘛所以重點還是你要打出效果讓人民有感啊而不是說國際反洗錢組織APG來我們這邊經過他們的調查我們的反洗錢非常棒那你再去問問看世界上面金融管理你覺得我們管理的真的像你說的非常棒嗎我想你會講大家可能也不是那麼的相信啦好 那"},{"start":5450.745,"end":5452.155,"text":"所以我想请教一下部长"},{"start":5453.157,"end":5481.123,"text":"那我國被害人人數啊你今天報告說你會積極釐清我國被害人人數那請問這部分你做了什麼這部分那個是現在編寫在偵查偵辦中那這部分那偵查的要從那個整個偵查的一個結果去做一個釐清看看我們國內到底有多少的的一個被害人以及扣押的財產是不是我們被害人本國被害人的一個財產所以我想這個檢察官的一個調查"},{"start":5481.803,"end":5499.069,"text":"被害人通常都很多時候會有很多隱性的被害人這個我能夠理解但是我要提一個就是因為這個案子太子集團這個案子其實不只說被害人眾多不單單台灣人其實被害人非常的多其實這樣子也讓我們國家顏面受損"},{"start":5500.109,"end":5526.818,"text":"真的顏面會受損原來他們的詐欺所得是在台灣這邊購置豪宅而且多年下來還活得很快樂很開心我們看到的是這個所以我們今天看到的一個客觀的事實是什麼是金融機關的通報義務有沒有做到有 他做了52字的STR的報告有 他有調查局的分析報告有沒有做到有你們的IFI有做了26份的報告這個也有但是檢察官的分案啟動"},{"start":5528.258,"end":5555.026,"text":"卻是在美國開始有動作之後我們這裡才開始動這個就是我們這邊的一個大問題你不要跟我講你們掌握多少情資怎麼樣檢方沒有分他治案之前檢察官不能自己下去調查這個是我們知道的最基本所以不要說這個知道後就分案這都騙人的調查官知道這個案子像這種重大的金融案件調查官一定會先找檢察官報請指揮分他治案加以調查"},{"start":5556.507,"end":5577.627,"text":"這是全國一致的程序如果沒有做到這個就不要在那邊跟我講我們掌握了多少那個都是在騙國人而已都是在利用所謂的偵查不公開這幾個字之下然後我們好像我們做錯事大家都不會知道你們永遠用偵查不公開來跟我們搪塞一些事但是我看到的是"},{"start":5578.752,"end":5601.492,"text":"今天調查官如果知道這種重大案件絕對是報請檢察官指揮檢察官分他字案開始調查如果有這個他字案你可以把他字案的時間給我看案號給我看那我就知道到底有還是沒有而不是在這邊講一句說我們有掌握情資我們有開始查但是沒有分案那這個其實是騙不了我們那剛剛講那幾個如果你們認為說"},{"start":5603.376,"end":5629.622,"text":"你們都有努力做了依照現役制度的努力做那表示我國的洗錢房子還有盲點存在對不對至少這個不能否認還有盲點存在所以在我們相關調查人員在依據法律程序在做完之後還是有一些我們查不到或不知道或國外已經查了我們都不知道那表示我們有盲點存在所以我在這邊要求兩件事第一個 部長你要讀同高檢署麻煩你們針對調查局這6年來"},{"start":5631.983,"end":5645.789,"text":"的異常通報還有這些金融情報的流程是要去進行一下行政調查看一下這些有被異常通報的這些案子有沒有值得去了解一下背後是什麼狀況這可以做到嗎 部長"},{"start":5647.617,"end":5673.631,"text":"這個是在 因為那個台高監署事實上在11月10號有召集相關的一些部會好那就麻煩 麻煩 這個是一個交換院就是一個工作小組另外各自的全管 我們是一個精進的一個好那我跟部長說麻煩你們就這6年來有比較異常通報的案例再拿出來審查一下好不好"},{"start":5674.591,"end":5697.536,"text":"好 這麻煩你們然後第二個三個月內你們提出洗塵防治制度有沒有具體的具體修正方向就是說因為有多家金融機構長時間而且反覆通報的這些案例這種高風險的案例的時候你們那個洗房辦那個處FIU是不是可以就強制啟動偵查或報警檢察官的這個啟動調查這個門檻你們稍微幫我們"},{"start":5703.197,"end":5723.91,"text":"研究一下然後給我一個具體修正的方向好不好麻煩一下後面這兩個是三議的建議再麻煩你們做到謝謝兩位麻煩那個法務部跟調查局要依照五委員的指示提供相關的資料好謝謝那接下來我們請羅志祥委員發言"},{"start":5730,"end":5747.574,"text":"有請司法院理聽長法務部政部長調查局陳局長內政部張署長金管會佟局長好 麻煩剛剛羅委員點名的這些長官們到台前 謝謝首先我想請教我們佟局長就你現在所監管的業務或是引以至極的感覺詐騙嚴不嚴重 台灣"},{"start":5760.532,"end":5768.651,"text":"我們都有配合 嚴不嚴重嘛也答不出來 換下一個 來署長 你總答得出來吧"},{"start":5770.289,"end":5794.501,"text":"詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙是嚴重的非常嚴重我們剛剛我們的那個吳宗憲委員說幾乎是民怨第一名這個人民的感受沒錯吧現在普遍現在大家的感覺也都有這樣的感覺那不過我們打詐是有一些成效再說了來再想請教一下我們司法院我們的李廳長剛剛署長說詐騙真的是人民深惡痛絕"},{"start":5795.001,"end":5813.09,"text":"所以我們吳委員說是民怨第一名你認同嗎我認同認同 謝謝再來請我們的局長局長你認同吳委員說民怨第一名嗎我相信現在目前這部分民怨還是很高謝謝你來 請部長我不太理解 部長"},{"start":5814.622,"end":5838.91,"text":"為什麼吳委員說民怨第一名你可以讓你炸鍋到這種程度還叫他拿出證據出來沒有他是說我們國內我們台灣市全世界那我告訴你吳委員講得很清楚啊我不認為那你問是不是民怨第一名嘛那當然是民怨這是我民怨之首來來來我告訴你啊但是那不能我部長不用緊張但是他們說我們那個炸雞的成效部長你又來了來我們請局長上來"},{"start":5840.69,"end":5868.043,"text":"我請局長上來部長我請局長上來了啦第三次部長我請調查局局長上來啦好不好委員好學學局長啊局長也認同是民怨第一名啊那麼解釋那麼多我說民怨很高啦好沒關係啊你要修正民怨很高也可以啦來我跟局長問局長不要緊張嘛我還肯定你咧謝謝 謝謝委員肯定你知道TBS最新民調"},{"start":5871.483,"end":5888.66,"text":"92%的國人認為詐欺嚴重只有4%的人認為詐欺不嚴重民怨有沒有很高啊人民深受其害痛苦啊所以我覺得真的很無聊光針對民怨第一名可以跟他們吵半天"},{"start":5890.185,"end":5905.604,"text":"你詐欺工作做得很努力我們的很多第一線的反詐人員我也要數大拇指敬佩他們啊我有否定他們的努力嗎 有沒有沒有啊但是今天我要說為什麼今天會有太子集團的這個專案報告在"},{"start":5908.277,"end":5926.372,"text":"人民能夠相信嗎 這個我後面會一一來詢問人民看到政府的做法 難道不擔心嗎我們也是基於期許希望今天我們的政府當然做得更好一關一個民怨第一名 人家TVBS民調做出來就92%認為嚴重啊只有4%的人認為不嚴重啊"},{"start":5930.075,"end":5954.002,"text":"難道不值得政府警惕嗎政府在這一方面一直是列為施政的重點非常好 謝謝局長是 謝謝委員那我想請教局長一件事你有聽過 最近有個案子有一位清潔隊員因為同情拾荒老婦他把回收站台內一個堪用殘值只剩32元的電鍋轉送給他"},{"start":5956.428,"end":5982.804,"text":"你知道檢方最後是以貪污自罪條例起訴你有聽過這個案件嗎有 我有聽過有沒有他說黃姓清潔隊員康他仁之凱不該助長義賊廖天丁的錯誤概念來 部長你覺得32元的電鍋以貪污自罪條例起訴然後檢察官說他康他仁之凱不該助長義賊廖天丁的錯誤觀念"},{"start":5985.002,"end":6004.866,"text":"這個的確是情形法狀我講一個清潔隊員的那個感想你來評論一下那這部分我們也你去那個那個貪污資歷條例的一個修正草案很好很好你亡羊補牢很好這個我們一直在做這樣的一個提託來我跟部長說部長你要聽我講嘛部長請問現在我要跟你換位子嗎"},{"start":6009.522,"end":6035.411,"text":"你是質詢我還是我質詢你啊我要到我的答案了嘛你可不可以聽我質詢好不好質詢時間有限我也不想耽擱後面的人質詢啊我還算客氣吧 部長謝謝委員長謝謝你那位清潔隊員感慨啊他說很後悔他不敢倒好人把這32元的電鍋送給一個處境堪憐的一個拾荒老婦啊他很後悔"},{"start":6036.598,"end":6050.781,"text":"可是我跟你講現在很多人看到太子集團囂張九年你不要說後悔當好人可能很多人要後悔沒去加入太子集團難道這個不是個警訊嗎那我現在在問真的叫捐鍋者豬詐騙者猴"},{"start":6064.98,"end":6093.717,"text":"捐一個電貨給老富 貪污啊詐騙45億台灣啦 全台 全球全球多少1500億美元1500億對不對這樣的詐欺集團啊在台灣45億的不法資產爽九年啊然後現在剛剛所有的資訊我聽到最後"},{"start":6094.653,"end":6109.963,"text":"都覺得今天我們的法務部調查局好棒棒啊都做得很好啊沒有任何可以檢討要反省的地方啊我聽起來是這樣啊在台灣爽九年啊不是嗎來我想請教再下一個問題我想請教我請教部長今天我們看到我們請局長好了來局長"},{"start":6124.705,"end":6146.963,"text":"剛剛我看資訊很多重點你們說你們2019年就接獲銀行的申報的金融資料然後2021年就已經接獲相關情資展開調查那我想請教一直到今天美國方面"},{"start":6148.711,"end":6176.26,"text":"這個美國的法院10月8號起訴美國財政部10月14號對陳志等人實施制裁然後接下來我們看到檢方動起來了分工辦案扣押不動產然後搜索集團幹部具體主要幹部通知證人到案全面擴大偵辦我想請問一下局長跟部長"},{"start":6178.457,"end":6202.801,"text":"這些包括所謂的偵辦的作為扣押的作為搜索的作為這些直接打擊所謂的詐欺銷唆的作為請問為什麼不是在今天美方10月8號起訴之前你剛都講從2019年到現在6年了吧這6年奇怪了有搜索嗎沒有嗎來 部長"},{"start":6208.53,"end":6236.702,"text":"有对太极集团展开搜索吗 有没有包委员 我可不可以回答可以啊 请你这个本案是一个大型的跨国的一个犯罪的组织我知道啦那我们接到这个异常的这个通报的时候其实都是每一笔的交易我们如何从这每一笔的交易勾勒出整个集团的架构跟成员我们倒个袋 倒个袋我只问你一个yes no嘛有针对太极集团开始搜索吗"},{"start":6237.932,"end":6258.674,"text":"有扣押资产吗就本案在11月4号的时候之前没有嘛我没说错嘛但是如果委员你有注意到外媒的报导这个其实是跟其他国家在国际间同步的一个行动我都说辛苦你了对你也是很礼遇啊对不对辛苦你啊辛苦9年啊"},{"start":6260.546,"end":6279.817,"text":"至少從你知道開始六年吧如果你跟我講三個月你沒動作你一年沒動作我都解釋得通啊來台灣九年你知道有六年你開始關切調查有四年了結果到最後是美國動手我們這邊還開始又搜索又扣押又傳證人"},{"start":6282.079,"end":6307.46,"text":"那我就你說說今天國人沒有在質疑這件事情國人有些質疑難道不是應該的嗎跟委員報告其實很多的這個國際的這個情質我們是不方便但是如果委員你注意那個外媒的報導你就可以知道說這個其實在同一個時間是國際之間同步的執行包括美國 英國 新加坡 香港都是在這個時間點同步執行大點時間給部長部長我的結論很簡單啦"},{"start":6312.605,"end":6324.203,"text":"你們一直在想這安靜你們多努力多努力多努力我剛剛講的搜索扣押傳證人通通都沒做嘛有嗎在美國動手之前有做嗎就沒有嘛"},{"start":6325.805,"end":6349.875,"text":"三個月半年一年兩年你沒做我沒意見啦就像我任農局長講的嘛大案件嘛對不對你要很多的東西要做要查要做嘛這個要長期的一個說證嘛左九年右九年九年過了再九年是這個概念嗎改改左三年右三年過了三年再三年剛好加起來九年啦"},{"start":6350.831,"end":6379.633,"text":"委員這個是辦人的一個專業部長你人生有多少9年可以做你有多少9年的部長可以做這個長期的收證部件這個長期要釐清92%的人認為詐騙研究廳永遠記在心裡面這一種的才叫進行來來我請署長我請署長委員好45億啊沒錯吧是45億應該是很大的金流吧對不對非常大的金流"},{"start":6380.509,"end":6404.725,"text":"哇 神不知鬼不覺啊九年在那邊跑來跑去沒事啊然後現在我們部長跟署長我們局長跟部長兩個都覺得自己很努力啊這努力能跟國人交代嗎這才重點吧來 請問我們的金融我們的金管會的局長童局長45億的金流不算小吧對啊"},{"start":6409.244,"end":6434.165,"text":"你們有通報吧 對不對對啊奇怪我不懂耶人家天靈靈地靈靈我們這天不靈地不靈啦政府也不靈啦是這個回事嗎我在這邊沒有用很苛刻的方式來要求部長跟局長真的沒有可是我就講一件事情我還是那句話嘛今天金管會通報你一年兩年"},{"start":6436.158,"end":6454.89,"text":"你無知無覺 我可以講說案件太大對不對 抽絲剝繭詳細謹慎不是耶 照調查局局長說就六年了嘛你通報他們六年了嘛 對不對 沒錯吧他們局的底報告是這樣寫的 六年啊他就說來九年啦所以這才我跟哥哥講 為什麼講台灣現在多何其荒謬啊捐鍋者諸"},{"start":6466.635,"end":6494.33,"text":"詐欺者喉捐個32元電鍋 好心捐電鍋貪污 起訴然後呢 詐欺集團有八成的人抓到是被交保3萬到100萬特助15萬交保搞得今天 院長還震怒咧院長震怒啊打擊詐欺人員士氣啊 只要罵錯人了"},{"start":6497.677,"end":6499.981,"text":"他罵法院來 我們來請廳長來我再重複一遍 剛才其實有問過院長罵法院罵對了嗎 來"},{"start":6509.809,"end":6534.733,"text":"我還再跟委員報告一下這個在上個禮拜台北地院已經發了新聞稿澄清沒關係嘛 我不知道新聞稿你幫我講嘛 內容重點是什麼就罵錯了嘛 沒錯吧是由檢察官訓後交保的對嘛 檢察訓後交保跟法院沒關係不法院裁的沒錯吧 就罵錯人嘛來來來 部長"},{"start":6536.131,"end":6556.154,"text":"罵錯人怎麼辦這個院長應該是院長的意思是指太子集團的生壓的核心幹部有一位交保是交保在一個圖信的一個被告交保30萬那這部分檢方是認為是不符所以這邊有看到所以這部分我們核心幹部就要收押"},{"start":6556.835,"end":6561.017,"text":"聽長請上來 聽長請上來部長那麼盡責 我有點覺得委屈他啦我請聽長上來嘛我請聽長上來啦 謝謝部長我請聽長上來啦沒有 部長你很盡責啦 總統太帝喜歡你啦沒問題的啦是不是罵錯了 請問對不對 聽長也很無奈啊講那麼多"},{"start":6588.235,"end":6606.041,"text":"他沒罵錯 搞到我們法院還要發聲明我不要再跟你吵這件事情 我只是覺得你很盡責你討厭聽洗地兩個字 我知道但我說你很盡責 怎麼沒錯吧這不是洗地 這是回應那個委員對的我就說你討厭聽到洗地兩個字 我沒有講洗地這是一個誠信事實 這不是什麼洗地部長你不盡責 你要我這樣講嗎我想你很盡責 他誇你也不行"},{"start":6613.601,"end":6634.977,"text":"別人為罵你洗地你翻臉我誇你都不行 奇怪了 我不懂啊你就很盡責嘛 廳長旁邊都說罵錯了你這邊盡責的幫忙辯護不是洗地啦 再強調不叫洗地啦叫做盡責辯護啦最後有一件事情我要跟部長來討論一下最後一件事有個80歲的劉老太太照顧癱瘓的兒子50年"},{"start":6643.476,"end":6656.541,"text":"還要照顧她比她自己大10歲的丈夫因為她確診 心力交瘁她悶死了她兒子那地方法院法官建請總統依赦免法來對被告特赦各界也支持特赦"},{"start":6657.998,"end":6687.077,"text":"那我看我們的總統府是強調說因為這是我知道本會我們的委員會針對陳水扁特赦問題當時法務部就說尚未判決確定的案件沒有赦免法第三條特赦適用的餘地對不對當時這麼講沒錯這個特赦是要判決確定的才有特赦的所以是你要等法律程序的做完那是你的見解所以總統府說將司法程序完成後再回後續"},{"start":6688.378,"end":6711.236,"text":"但坦白講我也有看到不同的法律見解有人是回到赦免法第三條的條文的規定受罪行之宣告的人經特赦者免除其刑之執行其情節特殊者得以罪行之宣告為無效他沒有講確定兩個字但沒有關係我不是要在這邊跟你爭執法律意見我要講的是另外一件事情"},{"start":6714.093,"end":6739.695,"text":"我的主張是有新特色就特色啦不要讓他再來回奔波法院但如果法務部還是認為說要確定那現在檢方已經不對本案上訴了嘛對不對那個檢方沒有上訴這是那個被告一方上訴可是我跟你講部長你江心比心從被告角度來講他要不要上訴他也很為難啊不是嗎今天如果他撤回上訴全案定義就符合你的要件了嘛"},{"start":6740.262,"end":6756.705,"text":"對不對 定宴以後總統就可以來行使特赦的餘地嘛可以擔心他不上訴 定宴以後他也就要去服刑啦政事就沒有轉 萬一沒有特赦就要服刑那為什麼讓他來去賭好 沒關係 我這樣講我想請教部長 能幫一個忙啦"},{"start":6757.626,"end":6778.844,"text":"就是按照你的 我講的我的叫廣義的法律見解你的叫狹義法律見解 我不講對錯按照你的法律見解一定要確定之後部長能不能告訴我如果確定之後 你作為我們法律的守門人能不能請我們總統對這個個案慎重考慮 不是要求啦慎重考慮行使特色啦照你說的確定之後啦"},{"start":6780.31,"end":6795.159,"text":"你覺得他有沒有可憐 請問這部分其實跟委員報告其實這個案件在發生之初是我在當北捷檢察長的時候那時候國安案件跟這件會議認為國務院法官的案件那時候轉嫌會議那個嫌疑會議我就講說我們檢察發揮悲天憫之心所以這件我們才建議"},{"start":6801.163,"end":6820.138,"text":"国官专组的钱才建立法官是不是改成通常程序不要再受到国官的那个比较程序的一些的这些冗长这一段我肯定你好不好那这边委员你关心的我想这部分当然是总统固有职权那我想总统已经知道了所以总统我发新闻稿"},{"start":6821.059,"end":6850.122,"text":"說要程序走完他沒有答應要特赦 只是說程序結束大家都會很關心這件事我不勉強你啦 部長就是拜託啦你不用公開你作為政府法律守門人作為幕僚的話你私下給他總統建議這件事我們是覺得真的很可憐所以長照杯哥這部分的我們是一直在做這邊的一個檢視檢討在這邊部長我跟你講你贏給大家一個promise你至少會把這個民情反映總統"},{"start":6851.922,"end":6857.423,"text":"這個時候我們會來處理謝謝你這個也謝謝委員指教謝謝好 謝謝羅委員那麼接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我先請我們法務部部長"},{"start":6884.315,"end":6902.573,"text":"好 請部長好 部長好部長 今天我們主要是著重在打詐那剛才也講了現在這個民眾對詐騙深惡痛絕也是政府現在民調滿意度最低的一個項目但是我必須要講就是說"},{"start":6904.395,"end":6926.158,"text":"我們為了打詐因為案件很多但是司法有沒有怠惰呢有的 我現在就來直接跟部長請教這件事情我們在整個打詐期這幾年來包含我們成立了國家打詐隊那麼努力在打詐但是有一個案子非常非常特殊"},{"start":6927.179,"end":6949.079,"text":"这个特殊是什么呢它其实是类似当年的IMBIMB一样非法吸金非法吸金这个叫做天逸集团的董事长温丰泰他以所谓的基金队长为名对外吸金而且他的吸金说你保证回本"},{"start":6950.253,"end":6975.23,"text":"而且回收率就是你的報酬率高達6%到12%這種一看就知道典型的非法襲擊的案例那我們減掉有沒有辦有的在2021年的9月當時你們也是大規模的去辦去偵辦然後裡面包含去約談去搜索"},{"start":6976.03,"end":7000.444,"text":"然後這個董事長當年是以200萬元交保然後他另外一家叫做天穎投資的負責人叫做王志摩他100萬元交保當然當時還有一些業務員有60萬交保的20萬交保的這樣一個大規模轟轟動動10億的一個金融非法吸金涉及詐騙的案子"},{"start":7002.987,"end":7022.331,"text":"部長我請教這樣的案子通常通常應該要多久應該會有比較具體的結果不管你是繼續的約談他繼續的開庭或者起訴他或者說還他清白其實你沒有詐騙你沒有非法襲擊通常這案子應該要多久"},{"start":7025.354,"end":7035.153,"text":"這個謝謝委員關心那的確這個是有吸金這個有涉及到這些不法的那這個金額也看起來也蠻多的"},{"start":7035.973,"end":7052.763,"text":"那這個北檢剛才委員有提到說11年9月份那時候有做一些的有處理啦有處理搜索等等的這些那現在的確是委員講這個是案件還在偵查中還在偵查中通常所以我要問部長像這種大型的案件大型案件如果他擺了四年沒有再開任何一次庭"},{"start":7064.23,"end":7072.785,"text":"也沒有在傳喚任何一個人沒有在任何的偵辦的動作合理不合理部長合理嗎"},{"start":7073.899,"end":7102.037,"text":"这个案件的难以程度以及收整的一个个案不同据我这边的资料事实上在去年在12月也有开过庭这部分我想我要尊重检察官的一个侦查的计划我想这部分如果当事人如果说被害人这部分对被害人来讲对被害人来说他一定认为这个人是不是有"},{"start":7102.897,"end":7117.337,"text":"守候的什麼政商關係可以讓檢調在一次大規模的偵辦然後交保之後最後呢無消無息我們來看因為這家公司繼續在做營運來 下一頁"},{"start":7119.56,"end":7141.5,"text":"他繼續在做營運而且神通廣大那麼他也跟柬埔寨的商務部也有正式的簽約然後另外他又去介入一家上市公司的經營權的紛爭這家公司也後來這個經營權紛爭也涉嫌到吸金的問題好 我要講的是"},{"start":7142.481,"end":7171.741,"text":"我們一個重大的案件然後被害人這麼多當然人家會盯住說司法檢調在偵辦的之後好一年過去了兩年過去了三年過去了你說去年12月那也是三年之後啦一次開庭對不對那所以我想請問一下這樣子的案子那你如何讓被害人對司法有信心請問一下部長像這個案子"},{"start":7173.823,"end":7183.895,"text":"10億然後甄辦都幾百萬元交保然後就擺在那裡如果你是被害人或者你是被害人家屬你做何感想"},{"start":7184.854,"end":7204.788,"text":"我想這不是案件就擺在那裡啦這個檢察官依照這個法定程序來蒐集證據那還是有持續的一個進行那這部分因為這是個案我也沒辦法去做一個干涉指導我今天在講的當然這個是一個非法吸金詐騙的個案"},{"start":7206.309,"end":7226.497,"text":"但是這也是通案就如同剛才在講的太子集團那是我們偵辦的很晚是美國把一些相關資料給我們這個是我們已經有在偵辦然後擺在那邊聞風不動我覺得這就是會讓外界認為司法怠惰"},{"start":7227.137,"end":7242.55,"text":"對於這些連大型的非法吸金詐騙你們都可以擺4年之久所以拜託部長這樣子害被害人血本無歸啊你本來就要加強偵辦啊否則這些人說實在這些人250"},{"start":7243.951,"end":7265.649,"text":"他們現在到處在做生意有沒有出鏡呢 對不對照樣還可以去介入上市公司的經營權之爭我覺得這個我們是不是讓這些這種涉嫌詐騙涉嫌非法吸金的人對他們太好了呢所以剛才羅思強委員問這個事情就是那個院長詐騙當時就是我總諮詢問他啦"},{"start":7268.251,"end":7284.519,"text":"我問他就是那個太子集團你講那30萬不是我問他是那個太子集團的特助那個城市的特助15萬交保然後呢交保之後臉上出現燦笑開心的不得了所以我就問院長這種畫面你給國人什麼樣的訊號"},{"start":7285.88,"end":7313.976,"text":"所以院長說他也不能夠接受所以像這樣的案子是大家不能接受的事情拜託部長好不好就一定該辦的就辦我說如果他沒有非法進行如果說他沒有涉嫌什麼相關的法律責任你也趕快懷人家清白是不是 也沒有你就把案子擺在那裡這個都不是我們在做這些司法案件應該有的態度另外部長請教你一件事情"},{"start":7315.177,"end":7336.64,"text":"這兩天我認為這個案子非常嚴重了台積電又出現涉嫌就是可能又被竊他的機密這裡面是他一個副總高階的副總叫做羅維仁他退休之後他就跳槽英特爾因為部長知道這個案子"},{"start":7337.631,"end":7352.549,"text":"這個案件媒體有報 那高檢署也分案偵辦了你講的是羅維仁嗎對 這一間 就是這一間你們是主動偵辦 還是說台積電已經跟你們這一間是主動分案的主動分案 這正確我為什麼今天要質詢"},{"start":7353.51,"end":7382.75,"text":"因為他之前呢是一個日商的東基威力集團這個也是日本的半導體國家隊友也來是涉嫌竊取台積電的這個商這個他的技術的機密那台積電呢是提告跟我們的高檢署提告然後所以現在在偵辦中那這個羅維仁按照媒體報導台積電還沒有確定說要不要提告但是我認為就應該去主動偵辦他那用什麼用什麼法去偵辦他"},{"start":7385.288,"end":7414.553,"text":"這可以營業秘密法用營業秘密法會不會用國安法還有那個國安法那個應該是第三條第八條所以現在部長是確定這個羅為仁涉嫌竊取台積電的機密案我們高檢署主動分案調查主動分案調查以什麼涉嫌那個國安法國安法以及營業秘密法"},{"start":7414.793,"end":7430.594,"text":"一頁秘密法就是主動翻案調查這是正確的我覺得政府要拿出態度來因為剛剛有媒體報導說他因為是美國籍還不能用國安法辦他我說怎麼會有這樣的事情那個是任何人 國安法的那個是任何人"},{"start":7431.915,"end":7444.801,"text":"對 所以這個部分為什麼我今天要質詢這個我是這樣子我就肯定了好 那時間暫停一下我請一下我們今天有經濟部經濟部是 對不起經濟部商業發展署還有銀行局局長跟內政部警政署署長好 請兩位三位最小的官員請上台 謝謝"},{"start":7462.712,"end":7482.771,"text":"這個之前我也在這邊請教法務部就是我們太子集團這個案子事實上它是涉及各部會那當時你們在檢方在開內部檢討會議的時候有人直接點名說這個案子的罪魁禍首是誰呢是經濟部就是經濟部的商業發展署"},{"start":7485.973,"end":7506.437,"text":"那是什麼呢就是針對這些空殼公司啊這些空殼公司大量的交易買豪車買豪宅但是我們渾然不覺所以當時檢方點名這件事的罪魁禍首是經濟部來那我想請問一下我們副署長您能夠接受嗎"},{"start":7507.973,"end":7523.489,"text":"跟委員報告我們公司的設立登記跟變更登記都有法定的程序我們依公司法跟公司登記辦法所以這件事情你們有沒有施指針對這個公科公司又買豪車又買豪宅然後進行洗錢"},{"start":7524.834,"end":7552.973,"text":"公司的設立資金我們會透過會計司查而簽證所以那個設立的資金我們會有法定程序處理那我要請教一下那麼當時法務部副部長在這邊他說他們會透過行政院要讓經濟部針對空殼公司進行清查因為以這個案例來說這個案例他透過設立"},{"start":7554.594,"end":7573.87,"text":"空殼公司然後去買車去買豪車豪宅當然機管會是說銀行局說他們有通報銀行針對這些交易他們有通報針對空殼公司要不要做清查公司的營業如果有"},{"start":7575.836,"end":7603.059,"text":"六個月沒有正常的營業那個雖然機關會有這個會營業的事實那我們會有法定程序會進行這個相關的副署長你今天來這個專案報告我覺得你完全沒有準備我剛才為什麼講為什麼檢方直接點名經濟部是罪魁禍首就是針對這些空殼公司沒有做任何的管理"},{"start":7603.894,"end":7630.727,"text":"所以我也支持我們針對空殼公司你沒有營運你也沒有營運資本額也沒多少那開個空殼公司在這邊就是大肆的去買各項的財產當然你說這邊他是買豪車豪宅這個還能夠在銀行裡面去追蹤他如果去買什麼虛擬貨幣買吳京明的債券吳京明債券他也有資金的流動你根本連追都不能追所以"},{"start":7633.345,"end":7643.345,"text":"针对我们这些空壳公司你们真的应该做一些清查你可以定嘛你可以定一个标准什么样的标准之上你要做清查"},{"start":7644.574,"end":7663.528,"text":"这边所谓空壳公司跟刚刚那个无营业其实两个概念是不同所以无营业就是说他六个月没有经营的情况那这种情况我们有法定程序就是透过这个命令解散跟撤销你讲半天我跟你讲那至于说在正常营业当中因为他在税务"},{"start":7664.549,"end":7682.102,"text":"呃的程序也都有申報營業稅有這個正常的那請問這家空殼公司太子集團有什麼正常營業嗎所以所謂的空殼公司他有正常營業嗎跟無營業公司兩個是不同的概念你在講半天我就說你完全沒有準備而來你們經營部顯然這件事情不干你們的事的"},{"start":7683.516,"end":7686.879,"text":"好像一副不干你們的事 你知道這個世界變成什麼樣嗎我們變成那種海外的那種洗錢天堂了 你知道嗎台灣有避稅天堂 海外有洗錢天堂 台灣現在變成洗錢天堂設立一家空額公司 然後在這邊把這些錢拿來去買車買豪宅我們渾然不覺 然後發生事情的時候你在這邊跟我爭議什麼有沒有營業"},{"start":7708.956,"end":7711.778,"text":"你們到底有沒有進入狀況公司在設立的過程當中會有開一個籌備戶頭那設立完以後他會轉為這個時間關係我真的拜託法務部把這些所有相關的內政我想那個署長不會那麼白目啦真的署長人家還有點名的是內政部"},{"start":7732.751,"end":7758.03,"text":"就是呢這個層次已經來十年來已經來很多次還用多國護照一直來一直來一直來所以也點名了也點名了就是說這個為什麼內政部這當然不是只有我們還包含海關為什麼都渾然不覺所以在這個部分我們有沒有辦法去做一些做一些防堵我就以太子集團這個案例"},{"start":7760.652,"end":7780.822,"text":"請檢調單位針對其他各部會它應該有漏洞要把它防堵出來我今天雖然找金融局但是我就現在來看你們確實有通報所以我覺得金融局的部分銀行的部分目前是OK的它有在守門但是他說檢調也沒有什麼他說通報以後檢調你們也沒有在積極的作為"},{"start":7785.845,"end":7792.55,"text":"所以你們要把太子集團這個案例我們所有相關的有這些漏洞要捕破網"},{"start":7794.671,"end":7816.376,"text":"這個案子很丟臉啊很丟臉我現在是時間關係我沒有把調查局長叫上來我那時候說四月份人家聯合國已經有報告說台灣涉及東南亞的洗錢有沒有結果你們調查局長講什麼說這個好像有言過其實啊就不是這樣子啊不是這樣子今天跑出來一個太子集團"},{"start":7817.557,"end":7838.154,"text":"我意思說我們要洗刷這種國際洗錢中心洗錢天堂的惡名可以不可以 可以可以 署長我覺得他署長比較進入狀況而且你覺得這個是你的職責你經濟部真的回去好好這個空殼公司是你們經濟部的事情"},{"start":7840.752,"end":7864.407,"text":"部長最後針對太子集團所有相關部會我覺得你們也不要當爛好人也不要護短你們檢調有什麼疏失你們就直接提出來其他單位有什麼疏失你們就要提出來這個案子用太子集團的案子來做檢討不要明年人家什麼聯合國報告再出來說我們幫東南亞去洗錢"},{"start":7866.949,"end":7894.591,"text":"你知道現在全世界都在跟柬埔寨宣戰啊全世界啊 美國都說我要派員到柬埔寨去查啊然後李在明說什麼李在明說你們今天敢動我韓國人我讓你們家破人亡人家總統有這種這種魄力耶說你柬埔寨再敢動我韓國人我就讓你們家破人亡我們在那邊我們就在機場舉牌子說大家不要去柬埔寨 小心"},{"start":7895.894,"end":7904.756,"text":"这种破例完全不一样啊所以我觉得要宣战这种宣战是要跟国际的诈骗集团宣战"},{"start":7905.802,"end":7926.102,"text":"好不好 惡名昭彰還對他們有什麼客氣的啦不會啦 謝謝委員的指教我想我們打架國會都是對而宣戰那委員剛才關心的就是說我們檢調再辦案把一些我們為什麼會有這樣的情形的發生我們會看檢討把它補漏這部分我們會回饋給各個行政機關各個權管單位來做一個不用當讓好了"},{"start":7926.883,"end":7934.131,"text":"而且也不能互擋也不能互擋誰沒有進入狀況誰沒有在防堵就讓他們要負起責任這部分我們有收集就是會來防堵這個經濟測驚作為這部分我們有在做OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":7945.387,"end":7969.599,"text":"好 謝謝因為待會很快到11點我想說中間要休息一下那麼是不是可以徵詢吳思瑤委員的這個同意我們在林慶祺委員質詢完之後我們休息一個5分鐘因為不過我想因為今天真的是大家醒了我知道因為如果說等到那個"},{"start":7979.994,"end":7989.501,"text":"因為今天的時間是真的就是延的比較久了那沒關係我想要不然就我們待會就還是林倩琦委員執行完之後不好意思就麻煩就是"},{"start":7997.096,"end":8009.86,"text":"好 那這樣的話那就不好意思王一川委員那就麻煩就是我們待會再吳世堯委員執行完之後好 我們再休息一下好好的 OK 好好 謝謝主席"},{"start":8027.269,"end":8045.037,"text":"本席先導一下言但是很快的我們可能要先請那個金管會做一下準備好那我們今天其實在這邊是針對太子集團整個的跨國的犯罪引發我們各界的跨欄但是今天的詢答剛才本席聽到很多的"},{"start":8046.437,"end":8063.263,"text":"這個數字還有一些報告其實民意代表在這邊就是反映民眾的觀點我們期待行政單位因為你們掌握公權力也有相關的專業你們再回應可以多一些對民意的一個同理所以剛才我們講到名次或報告"},{"start":8063.903,"end":8076.405,"text":"但是重点是现在许多民众有苦说不出然后被坑杀了然后无语问苍天结果看到那么大的案子呢目前这个阶段的一个处理可能让大家有一些疑虑但是呢"},{"start":8078.172,"end":8099.523,"text":"這些案子卻也引發了很多老民的一個政策所以這個本席今天其實要在這邊為一些民眾來做請命所以接下來我們就請那個應該是金管會 對不起金融 對 金管會那我們銀行局的局長有在嗎童局長好 請局長"},{"start":8105.015,"end":8130.876,"text":"好謝謝同學好謝謝本席最近我想您這邊應該也都有收到一些訊息最近因為普發一萬那麼也有一個方式就是讓民眾來利用銀行的帳戶來取領取但是呢又引發了一個越演越累的銀行帳戶無預警會那個凍結那許多民眾因此就產生了一些問題"},{"start":8133.938,"end":8153.843,"text":"這個問題請你們多加注意因為其實很多民眾其實沒有設詐但是因為銀行導入了AI的風險控制模型過於敏感結果被列為預防性凍結的對象結果導致不能提款不能轉帳然後生活會因此而完全停擺結果銀行又常常把這樣的風險的責任丟給民眾那把負擔也丟給民眾"},{"start":8158.844,"end":8184.269,"text":"這樣子的制度是不是走偏也應該開始做一些處理跟調整本席這邊舉幾個例子有個行業叫外送員那麼他常常因為多筆的這個小額的收入結果竟然遭凍結結果兩週不能提款結果為了付房租差點去借高利貸你們雖然聽起來很離譜可是小市民的生活就是這樣很多時候那個時間是不容一點點差那個毫秒的差異"},{"start":8186.87,"end":8193.452,"text":"另外還有一些民眾跟朋友聚餐在分帳然後社團小額的匯款總額不到五萬塊結果也被當成疑似人頭帳戶有一些長者領取敬老金而開戶因為半年前沒有動用存款結果又被郵局來凍結有一些家屬繼承了五百萬帳戶遭凍結了八個月結果又導致醫藥費 商場費也領不出來"},{"start":8215.999,"end":8232.185,"text":"那麼銀行的櫃台也常常出現民眾會錢給小孩的學費結果因此也會顯示異常那這樣子的金融體系為了防幣結果搞了半天民眾便利成為這樣子的一個成本這樣子是不是有點矯枉過正"},{"start":8233.746,"end":8248.96,"text":"所以目前銀行導入的一些AI模型將快進快出或者是多比的小額視為高風險但是有一些職業像外送員網拍或短租的一些弱勢族群的典型的金流就導致"},{"start":8249.921,"end":8271.498,"text":"人命生活的一個困難所以有一些警戒人士其實也警告那個銀行如果管太嚴那這一些弱勢族群就被迫要去跟地下金融機構來借錢反而助長了高利貸的一個的事業那也有一些洗錢的疑慮因此本席在這邊要談的是那麼銀行房價是不是過度嚴苛"},{"start":8272.799,"end":8287.245,"text":"結果產生了一種新的風險本席要請教你們是不是有盤點金管會是不是有盤點各家銀行目前導入AI風險的模型你們有沒有來要求銀行來調整一下預防性凍結的一個標準"},{"start":8288.686,"end":8312.697,"text":"然後將賬戶限制處分的範圍更聚焦在真正可能的詐騙犯而不是日常金融往來的民眾目前每家銀行的標準差異也很大民眾沒有辦法知道金管委員你們是認為這樣合理嗎第二個部分是民眾如果要解鎖賬戶因為已經造成大家生活的麻煩結果銀行端還要求提供金流的來源"},{"start":8313.177,"end":8319.741,"text":"那從生活費到聚餐到社團的贊助都要舉證那麼經管會你們是不是認為這樣舉證其實對民眾來講有過度負擔變成銀行將打詐的責任轉嫁給民眾所以第三個是那目前相關銀行凍結了民眾的這個帳戶"},{"start":8334.368,"end":8360.648,"text":"救濟的機制是怎麼樣呢最後一個是你們是不是要要求銀行來重新評估AI模型對於弱勢族群的歧視目前的交易模式推斷打擊其實有點過廣我們剛才講到的外送員長者小商家只是金融體系的一般使用者他們不是詐團成員也相對弱勢打詐是必要但是打錯對象就會變成傷害"},{"start":8361.929,"end":8376.659,"text":"助長其他類型的犯罪目前銀行的AI不是智慧偵測看起來像是全面掃射結果防詐變成了防民風險控管結果變成了老民那您的看法謝謝委員關心這個議題"},{"start":8377.66,"end":8397.063,"text":"那這個案件最主要的背景是因為銀行的警示帳戶一直不斷的飆升從111年開始每一個月大概平均增加的警示帳戶大概有2000到3000戶所以從今年開始我們要有加強要求銀行必須要去正視這個問題那也提出了相關的一個指導方式那當然部分"},{"start":8397.523,"end":8418.561,"text":"所以你們有針對剛才本席的那個部分有啟動一些機制嗎還是這是因為幾年來一直有這樣的情況所以你們要求他們要針對這些帳戶去做一些警示而產生了這些老民的狀況呢更委員報告最主要是因為警示帳戶飆升的這個議題所以我們在今年有要求金融機構必須要去強化它的風險控管"},{"start":8419.582,"end":8446.888,"text":"那因為有少部分的銀行它本身的警示賬戶數是比較高所以它為了要趕快降低它的這個警示賬戶數所以結果看起來是你們要求一些績效結果他們就趕快為了要符合這個績效結果搞得很老民應該不是說績效我們最主要是要強化銀行在偵測警示賬戶這邊的一個能力風險偵測的能力所以有少部分的銀行所以導致這樣子的狀況你們是不是可以趕快做個"},{"start":8448.488,"end":8467.757,"text":"這個處理 尤其是最近普發現金這個問題又爆出來嘛 對不對就很大量的爆出來是 各位有報告就是說我們先前有了解有少數的銀行他的確導入AI他把相關的風景的參數就是預警的參數他設的比較嚴 比較敏感所以導致一些民眾的部分他就被設為預控"},{"start":8470.059,"end":8489.771,"text":"好的 那謝謝時間關係我這邊趕快做一個建議然後你們也趕快提出一些相關報告好不好因為現在正在發生很多被普發現金一萬塊的目前卡住了然後這個卡住不是只有卡住那一萬塊會卡住整個戶頭所以是不是這個部分能夠趕快了解做個處理第二個部分你們有沒有做一個全面的檢討你們為了解決那個警示帳戶的問題結果現在產生這個新的問題而且目前很大量然後常常衝擊的都是比較弱勢"},{"start":8495.515,"end":8523.338,"text":"相對弱勢的族群所以你們是不是可以在一個月內提出相關的檢討給本席我們會有書面報告給委員但是我先跟委員報告一萬塊的部分我們已經通令銀行清查沒有去涉到這一萬塊所以一定要就是如果有今天民眾因為他是我們都看到了相關報導而且相關的反應所以這個部分如果有就麻煩你們即刻處理那不要因為這樣一個項目而導致全面的被凍結"},{"start":8524.039,"end":8547.147,"text":"好不好 這個我們有清查過謝謝 謝謝 本席因為時間的關係就是個案請你們趕快處理然後相關的全面性的你們為了因應的那個警示帳戶的問題而導致的其他問題也請你們做一個整體的檢討 好不好我們已經有召開會議 銀行都有採取相關的措施好 謝謝那接下來本席 請速發部 調查局 警政署 打詐指揮中心指揮官的代表"},{"start":8552.642,"end":8580.892,"text":"接下來本席要談的是AI生成的詐騙廣告現在非常的泛亂以假亂真的取材已經成為新型的國安問題我想各位應該都同意吧目前各單位經常拿出相關的統計數據看起來好像是做得OK但事實上民眾感受不到就如同剛才本席所講的今天我們會站在這邊質詢是民意代表的職責"},{"start":8582.272,"end":8599.568,"text":"雖然你們可以拿一些數據來做佐證但是最重要的是民眾個案的切身感受其實是最大的一個影響所以根據165的儀表版的統計10月份平均每天要受理441件的詐騙案財損在大概接近2億"},{"start":8603.792,"end":8617.754,"text":"但是詐騙手法這其實本席在之前就知道了但是現在非常嚴重詐騙的手法已經全面跟AI技術結合那刑事局這邊也公佈四大類的假名人詐騙手法包括假名人證書"},{"start":8619.136,"end":8647.977,"text":"假名人賣保險品假名人投資群組那本席認為的很重要的而且很嚴重的是AI生成的偽造名人短影音那我在這邊提醒Glock的整個生成式的影片還有AI語音模型的發展已經讓詐騙廣告的擬真其實讓民眾是沒有辦法辨別的這個情況不是只有很像本人而是事實上真的像本人"},{"start":8648.857,"end":8673.834,"text":"所以本席其實有看過黃國昌委員館長等名人的AI身為訪談內容被作為推廣加密貨幣的平台去年陳建仁院長在受質詢的時候本席也看到有委員做的AI擬真他也幾乎都被騙過了這個就在你我身邊都可能發生我們自己都有可能碰到"},{"start":8675.054,"end":8702.612,"text":"所以最近這些東西都還在Thread或者是網友截取會做一些流傳看起來也是本人聲音也是本人沒有辦法查證一下機率我們會誤信的機率非常的高所以連作家吳淡如都表示他應該是被速發目前列為全台最容易被仿冒的名人之一我想對他來講也是不勝其老所以本席要請教各位"},{"start":8703.553,"end":8727.799,"text":"各部會 請問對於AI偽造名人的廣告第一個部分 速發部目前你們的措施是如何目前在平台的一個強制下的機制運作的一個狀況跟跨國族群的企業合作的狀況是不是有比較暢通還有現在詐騙的短音影音都放在Facebook我們常用然後Instagram還有Straight YouTube x Twitter"},{"start":8728.359,"end":8755.125,"text":"TikTok那我們是不是已經跟Meta或者是Google還有TikTok這些海外的企業簽訂對偽造名人影音內容的一個合作協定蘇發布是 謝謝委員的質詢有關於這個就是說名人偽造的這個部分其實事實上我們在我們列館的這個四大業者跟七大平台裡面我們大概都已經有就是做好這樣子的一個聯繫"},{"start":8756.045,"end":8772.351,"text":"那並且呢就是針對這個剛剛提到這個微影音的這樣子一個部分因為如果是用AI生成的這個依照照圍條例的相關的規定其實事實上是必須要做揭露的那當然其實剛剛委員有提到說有很多他可能其實他也不大清楚"},{"start":8772.791,"end":8786.885,"text":"那可以透過我們的網站通報查詢網可以去做一個通報我們一旦確認以後我們就會立刻去進行下降這個問題其實真的還蠻嚴重你就要一些長者要經過這些步驟其實也真的是還有一段距離"},{"start":8790.288,"end":8804.919,"text":"另外我想請教一下調查局還有警政署目前對於假名人的AI詐騙有沒有專案的一個偵辦它其實是一種混合型的新型態你們有沒有針對這個部分成立相關的專案小組"},{"start":8805.339,"end":8832.157,"text":"有 我們刑事局有成立專案小組對這個部分我會主動去做搜尋那其實有人剛剛講的很有道理就是說這個都是在詐欺之前的那個源頭在廣告平台裡面的這個狀況嘛所以這個應該是所有詐騙裡面是最重要的那每一個最新型的這一些的相關的這個詐騙的AI生成的這個模式我們第一時間大概就掌握那會去做搜尋搜尋完之後會做下架停止解析"},{"start":8832.697,"end":8852.833,"text":"那這些廣告平台如果沒有依照規定來做我們還是會移給書畫部來做採訪那其實最重要還是在這個整個的一個網路廣告平台的這個自主的這個管理他們這個部分是最重要的每次碰到這種問題那各部會就說就是警政署負責的那很多東西就都你們負責的你們在第一線其實很辛苦"},{"start":8853.693,"end":8873.388,"text":"我們其實打炸是整個團隊我們當然是會主動有專門小組會再去做所以剛剛委員所提的這裡面的證書健保假名人的這些廣告或是這些生成的這些影片的模式感覺他們生成的速度都趕不上你們去查核然後下架的速度怎麼辦"},{"start":8874.308,"end":8899.368,"text":"我們當然就是說就是像這些有一些都是跨境的投放的這個狀況那當然最重要就是網路廣告平台的這些的業者他們要去做這些本身的自製跟集合那有一些是今天下載完之後明天再變成一個不同的我想現在已經是一個還蠻無法自製跟自律的一個所以你可以看到就像比如講像我可以公開講那個Meta的這個"},{"start":8900.769,"end":8926.124,"text":"或者是這些FB的這些狀況是最嚴重的其實現在速度那麼快我們如果還停留在這個平台要自治然後民眾自己要小聽心那這個已經有詐謗條例可以去做規範跟處罰對我們來講都是法然後都是條例但對民眾來講就是生活我們怎麼樣過得簡單一點在我們當有這麼多技術這麼多科技這麼多平台協助的情況下還有這麼多部會的參與結果大家生活得越來越辛苦"},{"start":8927.004,"end":8945.525,"text":"我們知道警政署是很辛苦的各部會跟這些主題其實跟大家都有關不管是前段 中段 後段我想在你們的經驗裡面應該都有很多處理的經驗在這個經驗裡面我認為應該有更積極的一些作為我們知道警政署很辛苦本席問的很多的問題"},{"start":8946.266,"end":8970.112,"text":"到最後要嘛衛福部負責要嘛警政署負責那不好意思法務部相關的你們應該有一些經驗所以在跨平台處理的時候我覺得應該要整體連通然後速度跑得比犯罪快一點這樣我們就不會一直在後面追趕好 謝謝警政署啦我最後講一下就是這個基本上就是司法院跟法務部謝謝 沒有相關的就請回"},{"start":8971.246,"end":8988.331,"text":"那我接下來談的是詐騙案的這個爆量然後跟第一線人員的這個問題那很快那麻煩各位請回那司法院法務部我們請相關的代表這邊還是來提一下本席關心很久了每一次都提就是司法院第一線人員的處境"},{"start":8989.111,"end":9012.045,"text":"我們也知道大家現在面臨最多的就是詐騙案整個司法體系已經超載了不僅是承辦人員的能力不足制度面本身也很難去因應這樣結構性的問題本席也提出一些建議你們可不可以在程序上做一些調整比如說減輕司法人員的負擔有沒有可能 例如"},{"start":9012.985,"end":9027.915,"text":"擴大認罪協商制度的適用範圍可以減少除外的範圍擴大可協商的範圍這個部分是不是就可以制度性的或結構性的減輕第一線人員的一些負擔"},{"start":9029.155,"end":9050.109,"text":"因為詐騙案每年都超過數十數萬 十數萬件對司法的能量其實蠻耗費的所以目前整體的刑案量就是詐騙的刑案量非常大第一線檢察官 書記官 法官都過勞但是我們目前沒有辦法直接處理這些很快的處理這些問題"},{"start":9051.15,"end":9080.069,"text":"所以有沒有可能本席這邊建議啦對於放寬認罪協商的一個程序可以用程序改革來減輕司法的一個負擔然後來減輕第一線人員我們知道我們常常在增聘人員但是是不是可以研議看看讓這個證據明確而且犯罪樣態非常清楚的犯罪可以更彈性來運用本席上面所講的一些程序檢疫處理的這個方法呢你們是不是可以研議呢"},{"start":9083.483,"end":9098.186,"text":"現在委員關心這個議題有關於司法人員的負擔部分我們非常的沉重本席每一次都會提這個今天就提出這樣一個可能的方式在法制上我們就相關詐欺案件的部分我們就擴大所謂的獨任審判的範圍把原先需要合議的案件把它減少讓獨任的審判案件把它擴大到所有的詐欺案件都可以獨任審判"},{"start":9108.149,"end":9129.066,"text":"那這部分我們也經過法務部這邊也有同意那邊我們新的那個詐毀條例已經有做類似的修正那把人解放出來把何義廷原先綁三個法官來審理之後變成獨任法官就要審理至於協商的部分我們也有在注意到這個是原先他有做一個除外規定就是死刑無期徒刑三年以上有期徒刑把他除外我們希望人"},{"start":9130.367,"end":9136.191,"text":"底線門檻的部分把它變成最新本席改成五年以上的話可以擴大協商的範圍這是時間關係啦你們是把相關報告送到本席的辦公室那本席也是要檢視一下我們對整個國際的趨勢在你們這些方法上有沒有符合一個國際這個比較相對彈性而且對於人權也是有一些關注跟保護的一個方向好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":9161.587,"end":9175.074,"text":"謝謝林委員好那接下來請吳思耀委員好謝謝主席有請司法院廳長李廳長然後鄭部長請李廳長鄭部長"},{"start":9185.806,"end":9214.644,"text":"大家辛苦了今天专报的主题其实一个是大家关心太子集团的这个犯案那当然另外一个主题是在讲是不是要访新加坡来在台湾也推动边行那我先从边行这个部分刚刚几位委员的垂询比较少我想听听司法院跟法务部的意见有一句话说乱世用重点下一句是什么两位记得吗"},{"start":9218.691,"end":9224.067,"text":"亂世用重點攻心才是上策下一頁也就是說"},{"start":9225.72,"end":9252.83,"text":"如果在乱世一再的用言行峻法这种方式其实我们更要去思考公心才是上策就是说如何去预防每一种犯罪形态它背后的社会的现况这些犯罪者犯罪之使他的心态是什么我们要有效的去预防也就是前端防范犯罪的重要性"},{"start":9253.61,"end":9267.586,"text":"所以說當我看到有立法委員在國會殿堂要倡議說新加坡現在要把詐騙也納入邊形的範圍我認為我們值得好好在人權的面向在國會殿堂討論這件事情"},{"start":9269.867,"end":9295.077,"text":"有沒有鞭刑跟治安好不好之間是等號嗎現在新加坡的鞭刑現在是要擴大把詐欺詐騙案也放進去他們上路已久的鞭刑制度有非常多面向部長跟廳長應當知道不管是殺人搶劫性侵犯毒非法的槍砲彈藥破壞連破壞公務都有如果說"},{"start":9296.499,"end":9312.109,"text":"因為有了嚴刑峻法因為有了酷刑因為用了鞭刑就可以讓治安變好如果是這麼簡化的話那我們來看看國際的評比全球安全指數的報告台灣是第4名"},{"start":9313.07,"end":9339.858,"text":"而新加坡剛剛已經用了編刑用了這麼久的國家他在所有的評比項目綜合第十名還落後於台灣所以從數字來解讀有沒有編刑就能夠來印證治安的好與壞或者是有了編刑詐騙案件就會有效的嚇阻本席是一個很大的問號"},{"start":9341.238,"end":9348.325,"text":"下一頁所以我要問問兩位你們同意邊形在台灣要研議上路嗎廳長委員"},{"start":9353.643,"end":9372.7,"text":"我們可能要回溯去探討刑罰的目的是什麼刑罰是在身體刑的部分在我國比較討論比較採負面的看法可能有所謂的報仇性的一個性質我們是用矯正型的概念來取代這種硬抱型的思維嗎"},{"start":9374.401,"end":9385.43,"text":"而且在人權的面向上呢他是不是違反了國際兩公約也違反了進行酷刑公約嘛 對不對就是司法院立場非常清楚我們絕對要審慎那部長呢"},{"start":9390.406,"end":9410.921,"text":"的確我們也徵詢過學者專家的意見 廣大社會意見當然政壇兩說都有但是的確這個編寫在世界上是逐漸不被因為這個是英國的殖民時期留下來的或者是有些國家可能基於宗教的理由他們還存在因為英國都已經老早就廢除掉了"},{"start":9412.241,"end":9433.046,"text":"我們認為說當然這個有一些的聲音但是我們也是認為這個可能有違反酷刑跟公正公約的疑慮另外事實上怎麼去執行那部分也非常的一個很多的執行安全上的問題"},{"start":9435.767,"end":9451.967,"text":"另外新加坡是不是說那個邊型要多用譬如說據我們所了解他是50歲以下的男性才能用而且還要身體檢查有辦法如果你打了他有很多執行的門檻跟限制法律的要件這個都要從廠記憶"},{"start":9455.371,"end":9477.192,"text":"謝謝兩位的回答 我相對比較安心也就是說我知道社會對於詐騙案件大家都痛心疾首 深痛誤覺 包括本席我們在司法法治委員會這麼多的專案報告恐怕詐騙案類是我們所有專案報告的第一名代表所有不分黨派的立委都關心如何有效的來防範詐騙"},{"start":9478.793,"end":9499.338,"text":"但是如果迷信亂世用重點就是有效而去選擇了亂世用亂點我認為像邊行這種違反國際的人權公約讓台灣可能因此而人權走回頭路我們絕對要審慎的研議部長你要補充嗎你好像有話想要再說"},{"start":9499.898,"end":9517.168,"text":"的確這個詐欺就是全民公敵是民怨之所在這個我們都很也造成我們司法人員包括執法人員最大的暗戀最大的暗戀那這部分我想我們最近我們在11月13號也修法了加重出來回應民意的需求"},{"start":9517.848,"end":9523.172,"text":"的確像我們高博的詐欺這部分我們也到7年以上對 加重刑責地板的加重的3年以上7年以下那個已經下降調到100萬只要詐騙的金額到100萬的門檻這邊就會處分"},{"start":9533.92,"end":9540.863,"text":"另外我們在對也規範了禁奢的條款禁奢的條款然後擴大對潛在假期被害人的保護還有要獲得減免一定要把調和解的金額在六個月以下達成和解要把錢要給戶外面才能夠減免或者這部分我們再假釋的這部分我們的門檻又再提高那我們對這部分我們就具體求行因為這些兆團是非常可惡所以絕對不能夠輕判"},{"start":9562.694,"end":9587.203,"text":"所以我們也是要求檢察官一定要求重刑好 謝謝部長我給您非常充分的時間說明也就是從您的回答告訴我們政府對於詐騙案件從前端的預防到後端的重懲我們都想方設法在執行面的武器強化或是在法治面的健全是我們現在進行式而不是非常單一的從一個"},{"start":9589.844,"end":9604.493,"text":"最酷刑的邊形來作為一個上策的解方我想我們的立場是一樣所以我在這裡講我的立場針對邊形在台灣能不能上路應不應該上路這件事情我非常的保留我反對"},{"start":9605.453,"end":9622.7,"text":"我們台灣不能走人權的回頭路我們不能夠違反聯合國的兩公約甚至不能去違反禁止酷刑的公約以及剛剛部長所提到的在香港新加坡它的執行是針對50歲以下的男性有非常多的要件要達到所以說編刑的執行的標準本身"},{"start":9623.32,"end":9645.316,"text":"就很難一致這也是要去審酌以及到目前為止並沒有實證來證明說邊形能夠有效嚇阻犯罪就如同我剛剛前一頁的PTT告訴我們就是如果新加坡邊形是萬用的話他的治安可能排比會比台灣更好不是嗎下一頁"},{"start":9647.478,"end":9666.765,"text":"那我也要提醒邊行在台灣過去不論誰執政在馬英九執政的時候有民進黨的立委提案性侵要邊行立法院沒通過2017年小英總統執政的時候也有公民網路的提案酒駕要邊行政策上我們也沒有採納而現在2025年有立委的倡議我認為社會要擴大討論好 我想我們在場大家的立場我們要非常的明確"},{"start":9677.352,"end":9691.884,"text":"下一頁 詐騙打詐尚未成功政府仍需努力但是人權不能回頭下一個那今天剛剛我們講到詐騙是全球公敵跨國互助就顯得非常的重要下一頁"},{"start":9694.206,"end":9709.888,"text":"這個聯合國的報告也今天有非常多的委員再次引用太子集團這個案子就是符合聯合國這一個報告的主要的點出來的方向也就是跨國組織犯罪生態系的轉型"},{"start":9710.849,"end":9724.918,"text":"確實如此詐騙集團高度整合化企業化的運作太子集團就是這樣以及犯罪據點轉向無政府管控或非國家武裝團體控制的地區好柬埔寨也如同這個報告所"},{"start":9726.539,"end":9742.586,"text":"爬梳的還有詐騙金額怕死人所以說太子集團的犯案確實符合了聯合國的這一個報告的事情但是讓我們看到的是既然詐騙是全球公敵跨國的司法互助就是必須"},{"start":9743.926,"end":9757.956,"text":"所以這個案子從美國向台灣提出示警我們加速來偵辦這不就是跨國的司法互助嗎我不曉得很多委員都罵說因為我們怎麼可以讓這個案子是美國來告訴我們我們才開始辦我認為這個"},{"start":9761.59,"end":9781.064,"text":"是很有問題的邏輯本來全球都在承擔這種跨國性組織性高度整合化的犯罪集團全球互相通報互相協助本來就再自然也不過了嘛部長我們有很多案子協助其他國家偵辦不是嗎"},{"start":9781.947,"end":9806.66,"text":"這個是就是國際合作因為現在跨境的一個犯罪包括毒品 詐欺 洗錢這都是已經跨境的一個國際的一個犯罪所以必須要國際合作互相交換情資才有辦法以防更新所以我認為大家不要把因為美國示警了一起跟台灣來協助偵辦然後把它講成好像我們的政府失靈了"},{"start":9808.543,"end":9831.122,"text":"國際互助本來就是必須而台灣也要堅定的強大的扮演好這種國際司法互助的角色我們也能夠幫助其他國家一起來偵破這種全球性的詐騙的犯罪我覺得這樣的評斷跟觀點才是正確而不是今天一直在這裡為難你們"},{"start":9834.164,"end":9849.693,"text":"那我也要說來下一頁我直接講到來下一頁講到那個好這裡因為我們給了打炸非常多的新的武器透過修法202320242025我們剛剛您講的我們還有新的修法"},{"start":9850.595,"end":9872.997,"text":"到底我們的打炸是真的都沒有進展嗎這個是165的打炸的儀表板也是在我們的這幾年的努力之下上路的我們相信透明公開我們相信唯有全民一起來監督一起來關注我們政府勇敢的接受社會的檢驗"},{"start":9874.258,"end":9884.204,"text":"如果以這個儀表板上的公告的資訊我們每月詐騙案的受理數是減少36%它的源頭是有效的減少的以及詐騙的財損數從138億下降到60億減少56%我承認這個數字還是很怕人我們還是要防範但是我要為我們所有的執法人員打氣"},{"start":9903.164,"end":9927.017,"text":"當立法院給了武器我們所有的部門投入而且社會有共識一起來打詐而且全球一起來防詐的時候有成績有成效我們永遠不滿意但是我也要替你們講公道話而不是一再打擊我們政府同仁的士氣最後一個我提醒一個新的案例來 下一個是發生在我自己身上前一夜"},{"start":9928.138,"end":9942.164,"text":"就是說廣告實名制上路之後詐騙集團的手法改變了從過去的假投資廣告最大宗現在變成是網路購物最大宗而且成長了222%我自己是受害者下一頁"},{"start":9943.294,"end":9962.93,"text":"我就在上禮拜三在這裡質詢的時候我的服務處助理打給我這個四妖姐姐你是不是有在哪裡買了什麼有購其實我已經N次收到這種包裹因為我自己是不會網購的所以我都告訴我助理我沒有我助理說那我知道那這個就是詐騙"},{"start":9964.184,"end":9987.416,"text":"所以說非常多的幽靈包裹一案可以兩詐一個我查到他的公司資訊全部造假而我掃進去他的公司資訊我就可以查到這是一個不折不扣的一頁式的網站當你去查詢驗證這個詐騙包裹的時候他同時如果你去搜尋了進入他的頁面他又可以設下陷阱去盜取你的個資"},{"start":9988.837,"end":10007.871,"text":"所以这一类的幽灵包裹好下一页我今天没有时间了已经占超过时间了我还是要提醒审计部也写出报告我们的跨部会今天那个马指挥官在这里跨部会的合作从经济部到交通部对于物流业者超商配送"},{"start":10008.837,"end":10029.214,"text":"然後到我們的內政部的這個偵辦現在是失靈的幽靈包裹這一類到現在是沒有辦法有效的去管控的而現在它已經成為新型的網路詐騙的最大宗已經超越了投資廣告"},{"start":10029.975,"end":10057.5,"text":"所以我們找到對的方法去打擊詐騙當我們讓網路實名制上路之後可以讓這些假投資廣告沒有那麼辦法方便的橫行那現在已經變成新型的這種網路購物的詐騙因為時間到了我今天拋出來下一次我相信還有非常多次的機會就教於各位是不是可以把跨部會的協防就幽靈包裹網路購物的詐騙我明明沒有買"},{"start":10058.26,"end":10070.203,"text":"他貨到付款要騙消費者的錢這個東西我們來協防起來我下次再就教育你們好不好好謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了那我們中間休息5分鐘"},{"start":10087.125,"end":10099.206,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10115.079,"end":10137.177,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10143.507,"end":10146.47,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10168.046,"end":10195.538,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10202.142,"end":10213.797,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10413.001,"end":10428.706,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請翁曉琳轉委首先先有請鄭部長鄭部長還有李廳長委員好"},{"start":10434.953,"end":10453.044,"text":"市部長好 我想剛剛其實很多委員都已經有在談到就是卓榮泰院長在上個星期的總諮詢過程當中基本上就罵錯人了對於太子集團裡面的其中的一名嫌犯"},{"start":10456.475,"end":10483.055,"text":"15万巨宝轻放的事情那么事实上这个应该是属于检察官所做的巨宝裁定而不是法院所以看起来就是卓荣泰院长很明显有两种情况第一个就是他不想承认这是检察官自己做的所以就故意甩锅给法院另外一种情形就有可能就是对于这个本案根本还搞不清楚状况"},{"start":10484.016,"end":10507.743,"text":"也許他只是看了新聞然後也沒有想看所以就自己就妄作判斷然後以為說這可能是法院侵犯那實際上是檢察官所做的這個據保裁定那當然還有另外一種可能性就是卓榮泰院長根本就學法不經將檢察官的據保處分誤認為說是法官所做的"},{"start":10509.193,"end":10527.074,"text":"由此可見其實卓榮透議院長他應該要把更多的心思放在國人更為關心的打仗議題上面尤其是現在發生了這種國際這麼重要的一個詐騙集團然後竟然他所在地是在台灣當然他的"},{"start":10528.115,"end":10548.609,"text":"所在地上剛剛有講是在柬埔寨可是他這個本身的裡面的很多這個成員都是在台灣然後而且在和平大院然後甚至這個太子集團辦公室還在101那麼這個部分的話真的就從上到下都應該要好好的去追追去這個偵辦這個案件不應該再輕放好那麼當然"},{"start":10556.975,"end":10561.554,"text":"卓榮泰院長雖然他誤會了可是我認為說法院"},{"start":10563.188,"end":10591.038,"text":"在這個案子裡面其實也是以30萬元交保相對於檢方的15萬也不過就是50部校百部所以事實上就是不管是檢察官和法官在這樣的案子當中那麼對於涉嫌詐欺案子的相關的犯罪嫌疑人他的確是有輕放的這樣的一個問題那麼我們看到其實法院"},{"start":10592.571,"end":10602.006,"text":"你們自己有在講說對於台北地檢署這個生鴨圖女另外就是台北地方法院有裁定30萬元交保然後你們說你們對於"},{"start":10604.654,"end":10628.974,"text":"決定交保金額的時候會考量到犯罪嫌疑人或是被告所涉嫌犯的罪名犯罪情節輕重現有的證據及資歷等等因素以確保未來考慮到他的會不會確實到場以及考量保釋金額能否對於犯罪嫌疑人或被告產生相當的心理壓力以防止其棄保潛逃"},{"start":10629.834,"end":10653.281,"text":"所以也就是说法官在做相关的交保裁定的时候他会有种种的考虑的因素可是这个部分就让我们感到好奇那么为什么像是对于伪造文书这种很轻的罪两年以下的罪可是他的交保金可以到达上千万"},{"start":10654.675,"end":10676.586,"text":"那麼像太子集團這種詐騙案它可能涉及非常高的這個金額但是法院也只有30萬就做交保裁定所以由此可見就是其實整個的法院的體系未來在法官的這個良心的或是拒保交保裁定的部分"},{"start":10677.571,"end":10698.492,"text":"應該刑事廳這裡要多跟法官們再多開一些協調聯席會議座談會那麼事實上真的法院的所做的判決或做的裁定它都會影響到國人對於司法的信賴本席認為說這個部分是很重要的好 那麼"},{"start":10700.374,"end":10714.89,"text":"是不是接下來的話我先好兩位先請回因為我想這個部分的話就不請兩位回答了好那接下來我想請的是打乍指揮中心指揮官馬指揮官委員好"},{"start":10722.677,"end":10742.202,"text":"好我想請問這個指揮官您擔任這個職務有多久了您是內政部次長然後接任打炸中心指揮官您擔任這個指揮官目前的這個從去年8月到現在從去年8月到現在那請問打炸指揮中心是平均多久開一次會"},{"start":10742.642,"end":10759.21,"text":"我們每個星期都開會每個星期都開會而且不只一次會好 那麼所以對於太子集團的這個事情你們之前在打炸中心的會議上面曾經有討論過嗎包委 因為指揮中心我們是協調單位是幕僚單位所以我們要情資才能夠進行處理"},{"start":10759.79,"end":10773.047,"text":"所以你們一直都沒有情資這個情資部分我們也是在媒體上看到我們有進行討論然後也有跟相關的各部會去了解它的進度不過因為這個牽涉到國際的情資合作所以它不會到我們幕僚單位來"},{"start":10774.949,"end":10791.708,"text":"所以那打炸指揮中心看起來因為他這個層級很高可是你們卻一無所知那包含剛剛講的不管是金管會或是經濟部等等他們其實在過去都有多次的通報像這種有可疑的這個犯罪"},{"start":10792.388,"end":10809.241,"text":"集團的情資竟然打詐中心不知道這些事情我們不是偵查單位我們也不是司法警察單位我們是協調機關所以我們的工作是對可是你們總要知道一些事情一些案子那麼你們才有可能去協調我們是看趨勢不是看個案"},{"start":10811.423,"end":10832.316,"text":"所以你們打詐中興每週的開會只是看趨勢我們看趨勢然後協調各部會去進行整個包括我們在165的這個儀表板上的趨勢還有就是說我們從包括媒體上面會看到很多新型態的可能的這個未來的犯罪型態所以你們只是新聞分享打詐這個中興每個禮拜開的會就是看打這個什麼打詐儀表板"},{"start":10839.68,"end":10858.378,"text":"他的趨勢 到底每個月他的收借案件還有進來各部會的資訊到我們手上但是還是跟委員強調 太子集團的部分他是國際情資交換的問題他不是我們幕僚機關可以處理的我們的職責不一樣 謝謝委員"},{"start":10864.682,"end":10883.487,"text":"局長在你今天的報告裡面你有講嗎你們在108年的時候你們就陸陸續續收到銀行申報的相關金融資料然後110年的時候也開始展開調查等等那這些情資你們都沒有在打詐中心的會議上面有提報過嗎"},{"start":10886.901,"end":10913.575,"text":"那時候有沒有打炸中心我不清楚但是我們就是把它分析完以後我們會分送並且就是說這些金融情報銀行申報進來的其實都是單筆的交易對 所以因為銀行在金融剛剛是金管處吧剛剛是經濟部的銀行局其實有講了他們過去有多次60幾次通報我現在只好奇那到底這個打炸指揮中心"},{"start":10915.458,"end":10929.941,"text":"扮演什麼角色就是對於這樣的事情我們認為黨大指揮中心還是指揮官他在指揮我們所有的各部會要針對重要的這個案子要進行去偵辦去調查結果看起來指揮官並不知道"},{"start":10931.348,"end":10958.954,"text":"到底各部會收了什麼樣的情節我想指揮官應該不會知道個案剛剛指揮官已經有說明了我們還是強調一次指揮中心我們並不針對個案來處理我們是系統性的處理所以像剛剛委員提到的我們不要講說這是個案而是當你發現就是有多比的這種金融通報的事件的時候這個基本上就要進去這個金融通報事件不會到指揮中心來因為他還是會在金管會的層級去處理"},{"start":10960.074,"end":10969.298,"text":"那到指揮中心的我們看到的是趨勢性的內容所以個案的部分也還有所謂洗錢防治辦公室我們現在來講就是本席現在就是因為對於打炸指揮中心他到底他的角色定位以及他能發揮什麼樣的功能本席感到質疑我也特別把你們的指揮中心的設置要點有找出來那你事實上你指揮中心的要點你浪不浪浪寫了那麼多可是看起來現在從指揮官剛剛的口裡"},{"start":10989.548,"end":11001.9,"text":"我們知道不外乎就是收集輿情然後看看打詐疑表白那對於整體的趨勢到底有沒有哪些重要的案子應該要偵辦你們也不會去討論我們不偵辦案子我們還是要強調我們不偵辦案子我們是幕僚機關所以我們是處理政策性的問題掌握相關重要案件"},{"start":11011.189,"end":11025.438,"text":"但是因為這有些情資是有機敏性它不會到我們指揮中心來因為我們不是司法警察機關如果說您講說都是機敏性的話那由此可見是不是很多機關都包庇這不是包庇這是分工的問題好 我們先來看一下這是分工的問題"},{"start":11029,"end":11046.305,"text":"打詐指揮中心事實上在行政院的處規程裡面也沒你們單位我們現在是臨時性任務編組所以就是臨時性任務編組所以你指揮官你也扮演不了什麼角色大家還對於行政院打詐指揮中心我們月底會改制為常態性任務編組"},{"start":11047.902,"end":11062.229,"text":"現在社會以為打詐指揮中心扮演重要角色但事實上我們很重要但是我們的角色你們只是個臨時編組委員可能有一點誤解我們的角色任務性的編組都還不是接下來本席要再繼續請教的是"},{"start":11070.216,"end":11091.184,"text":"好那請指揮官可以先請回座好那麼接下來我要談的就是想請問部長還有廳長不好意思對其他的長官可以先請回座請問現在有沒有一個統一的聚寶材料基準我們剛剛講的"},{"start":11093.772,"end":11115.476,"text":"對於就是檢察官和法官他們在違這個拒保裁量的時候看起來都是自由心證有些案子很重要但是他的交保金額就很輕但有些看起來這個法定的罪行也不是很高的但是卻都是高額交保現在自己內部有沒有類似這種拒保裁量基準"},{"start":11118.047,"end":11133.635,"text":"或是你們有沒有一個檢討評量的一個機制事實上在前113年我們曾經過檢討過在有關於聚寶的金額要怎麼去核定或是一個做相當的指引具體化那我們有委託了研究案也開了一個相當的研討會"},{"start":11134.816,"end":11163.218,"text":"那與會的學者跟專家那給我們的回饋意見是說目前在世界各個立法例裡面就拒保金額的部分都沒有一個非常具體的數值性的標準什麼罪名要拒保多少錢大概這個部分比較難構成難建構這種具體性的拒保金額但是我們有一些拒保的相關的規範跟注意事項請法院做參考"},{"start":11164.119,"end":11190.144,"text":"那就如同剛剛委員所講的剛剛那幾個要注意省酌的相關事項是我們建議保證要做的 好的我了解了謝謝廳長 這個部長這邊呢應該是現在法務部檢察署這邊也沒有所謂的拒保裁量基準嗎它那個這部分我們有那個檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件因行注意事項第44點有地下午站規定說保證基準其實它沒有一個很標準的一個數據但是它要考量到"},{"start":11190.643,"end":11219.289,"text":"他的犯的什麼罪他的犯罪的情節本席在這裡我想要提醒的就是我們知道現在行政機關對於裁罰 罰還他們都會自己訂定所謂的裁罰這罰還裁量基準我覺得這可以給很多的這個承辦的人員他們會知道碰到什麼樣的案子大概可以做什麼樣的這個裁罰裁量的這個標準那我本席認為這個事情也很重要"},{"start":11220.732,"end":11238.259,"text":"這也不會去影響到什麼法官或檢察官的自由性他看了那個標準之後至少可以跟他一個參考當然他還是可以再去考慮到其他的因素來做一個增減但是如果說你們現在沒有一個這樣的一個具保殘量基準的話就很容易"},{"start":11239.611,"end":11256.884,"text":"犯了我們像現在看到的很多的問題有些民營大家認為說應該是重罪但是卻又是輕輕的放下然後交保金額也很低就會變成說整個的這個裁量標準是有很大的落差"},{"start":11258.105,"end":11285.562,"text":"那本期建议说你们这个部分应该要去积极的检讨要赶快去制定不要再去做什么研究计划了这个司法院法务部过去做了太多研究计划但是都没有落实也没有用那么好那接下来就是要回到就是我们讲的这个法务部的这个打诈禁车条款你们现在这个有提出诈房条例的修正案那么有要增订禁车条款作为法院良心的标准"},{"start":11286.202,"end":11308.039,"text":"那這個修法方向本身是予以肯定不過只是說在裡面有一些涉及到譬如說什麼叫做一般人通常生活的交通工具一般人通常生活的投資的程度或是一般人的消費一般人的生活的財務等等你們未來你們要怎麼樣去訂定去詮釋這個不確定法律概念"},{"start":11310.782,"end":11323.992,"text":"這部分是給法院的做一個裁量的一個量刑的一個參考是 所以回到就變成說刑事廳這邊未來司法院你們自己要去做一個量刑標準你們可以做得出來嗎"},{"start":11328.26,"end":11347.906,"text":"那個現在的50詐偽條例的現在的第50條修正草案他是把當成禁捨條款他是一種50計劃的量刑的裁量事項之一那這部分是由檢察官來舉證指出證明的方法來提供給法院來做參考包括他有沒有預約他的在還錢之前"},{"start":11348.726,"end":11370.376,"text":"他又過了怎樣的生活方式有沒有預約一般人為行為標準這是由檢察官來負責舉證來跟法院說明那法院根據檢察官的舉證來做相關的那看起來就這個事情上面就是檢查就是法務部跟法院都還沒有談清楚就法務部跟司法院什麼叫做一般人的生活他的"},{"start":11371.656,"end":11387.531,"text":"交通工具或它的投資或它的一般的消費未來要達具體化不能夠用這種抽象的方式來體現否則的話這樣定出來是沒有意義的好 接下來最後我用一點時間來談邊形的問題"},{"start":11390.273,"end":11413.404,"text":"剛剛吳四瑤委員其實一直在講就是說如果說台灣未來有可能實施邊形的話那會是人權走回頭路而且那麼從他言下之意似乎是新加坡這個長期實施邊形似乎就是沒人權的國家請問實施邊形就是沒人權嗎可以這麼快的就下定論嗎"},{"start":11416.397,"end":11419.378,"text":"请问部长您的看法实施边形是不是没人权"},{"start":11421.457,"end":11445.509,"text":"身體的一個很大的侵害請問坐牢難道不是嗎那是一個自由的問題所以對於自由的侵害跟對於身體的侵害你認為說是有差別的身體的一個外力的傷害這個變形的確是有違反酷刑公約跟公正公約的一個很重大的疑慮"},{"start":11446.63,"end":11457.155,"text":"那像日本的話像委員你就是日本在台灣實現這個平行它是以前那我想這是以前這個老草就已經廢除掉了這個廢除掉而且在"},{"start":11459.297,"end":11477.884,"text":"這個在1921年就已經廢除了廢除了所以因為剛剛講到有關於日本確實在日本這個政治台灣的時期裡面那麼當時呢他這個日本為了要加強對於殖民地的統治所以曾經對台灣及朝鮮都實施所謂的這個邊形那當然實施的時間不是很長大概幾年之後就廢除了不過就是說我要談的就是"},{"start":11487.048,"end":11513.682,"text":"今天看到法務部的報告還有各個機關的報告以及剛剛像是吳斯堯委員對於就說實施邊行是不是就是違反人權是不是就是沒有人道這個涉及到這樣子的一個刑罰的一個設計就是很明顯的違反人權我覺得你們必須要"},{"start":11515.042,"end":11540.693,"text":"講話要小心我們不可否認現在新加坡是全球治安最好的國家是全球的旅遊安全標準等等的大家評比最高的國家也沒有人認為說到新加坡會覺得不安全相反的新加坡它現在的治安它的秩序紀律還是成為很多國家的學習的榜樣"},{"start":11541.773,"end":11544.777,"text":"所以本席認為說你們在談到邊形的這個議題的時候基本上實在是過於輕率而且本席還要再講的就是說其實在2002年當時的陳地南部長就曾經率團出國考察新加坡的檢查及矯正等相關業務"},{"start":11560.976,"end":11579.515,"text":"也就是包括新加坡的边形制度所以在陈地南部长那时候其实也不是说没有考虑说未来台湾或许可以仿照新加坡实施边形的情况更何况现在实施边形似乎是民众在民调的这个里面其实大家是"},{"start":11580.436,"end":11607.145,"text":"非常支持的70%的民眾都贊成台灣要引進鞭刑來處罰詐騙犯而且不只是詐騙犯未來像是兒女或性侵等等這些都可以考慮所以本席建議法務部你們還是要去好好的去思考實施鞭刑的可能性刑事政策不能夠脫離國情不能脫離人民的法律情感"},{"start":11608.976,"end":11627.913,"text":"有沒有尊重人權有沒有違憲等等也不是法務部說的算但是呢本席認為說你們應該要好好的把新加坡這套邊形的制度那麼以及在他們當地人民對於這個邊形制度的支持等等這些意見都要研究分析清楚"},{"start":11629.233,"end":11647.863,"text":"畢竟現在是全國的民眾七成以上都很支持邊形而立法院那麼也有很多的委員認為在現在這個詐騙 橫行的情況之下應該要實施邊形所以希望就是你們可以好好的去研究邊形實施的可能性好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":11664.413,"end":11671.207,"text":"從先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員都尋答結束為止那接下來我們請審發會委員發言"},{"start":11684.354,"end":11712.796,"text":"主席各位同仁在我開始請官員上來詢答之前我想針對今天的我們召委設定的主題其實它是有三個部分第一個部分是太子集團個案一個司法偵查中的個案第二個是跨部會防詐及打詐的成效這是第二個主題第三個主題就是剛才我們召委在最後做了論述的"},{"start":11714.245,"end":11727.996,"text":"參考新加坡這個打詐編刑入法可行性的評估大概是三個主題那這個個案的部分我一向個人是非常的不贊同說在立法院的"},{"start":11729.419,"end":11750.787,"text":"會議裡面討論正在偵查還在偵查中的個案拿出來立法院做專案討論這部分我個人非常的反對我們這個禮拜三天的委員會就兩天在討論個案我個人是不能溝通的所以這個個案的部分我今天就不質詢我就不針對這個部分來討論那大概就針對後面兩個問題第一個就是"},{"start":11754.326,"end":11780.588,"text":"這個法務部會打詐的成效另外一個就是所謂邊形入這個打詐邊形入法那我現在是不是先請法務部好 請鄭部長委員好部長好我想今天召委會排這樣的題目確實現在這是一般的民眾啦我們去認為一般民眾都認為台灣的詐騙"},{"start":11783.013,"end":11803.071,"text":"橫行而且甚至會覺得說好像全世界台灣大概詐騙最嚴重大家會覺得說這個好像台灣是台灣的政府執法單位無能所以讓台灣變成詐騙天堂但一般民眾是這樣的感受這個感受其實是蠻真實的就是說因為民眾對於這個詐騙現在詐騙的這個狀況的嚴重性的感受是蠻真實的"},{"start":11809.108,"end":11828.107,"text":"但是我們作為一個政府機關作為一個執法單位我們也要讓民眾知道真相就是說台灣是很嚴重詐騙是很嚴重但不是只有台灣嚴重其實現在這種新型態詐騙不是我們小時候看的金光黨拿一包磚頭去騙人家的金塊那種金光黨式的詐騙不是的"},{"start":11830.721,"end":11849.29,"text":"這十年來這個詐騙都已經是跨境而且他透過這個網際網路透過這種各種方式的這種科技型態在進行的這種我現在就秀出來這個都是事實的這是在全世界各國現在的詐騙問題已經不是台灣單獨面對的說台灣是"},{"start":11854.552,"end":11873.905,"text":"台灣是非常嚴重不是全世界每一個國家的詐騙其實都非常嚴重也就是說現在這個反詐騙現在已經變成一個全球各個國家大家共通要面對的議題所以跨境的司法合作當然就變得很重要了我看這些新聞新加坡詐騙橫行財產損失260億美國人一天被騙4800萬新加坡剛剛講治安很好的新加坡"},{"start":11887.593,"end":11894.335,"text":"韓國 馬來西亞 西班牙每一個國家都一樣這是全球反詐聯盟的統計2024年 去年全球因為詐騙造成的損失"},{"start":11910.034,"end":11938.219,"text":"全球高達一百零三兆美元一百零三兆的美元不是台幣一百零三兆美元那這裡統計各個國家他的詐騙的受害這第一名是美國美國到到這個三千五百二十平均一個人他跟人口做平均平均一個人損失三千兩百五十三千五百二十美元"},{"start":11939.144,"end":11961.386,"text":"全球第一再來是丹麥再來是斯洛伐克再來新加坡剛剛講資安最好的新加坡排名全球第四被詐騙的狀況那我這旁邊也統計了我們的這個跟各國世界各國這是去年113年被詐騙的金額台灣大概新台幣502億"},{"start":11963.444,"end":11990.753,"text":"我們鄰近的日本去年一年被詐騙的金額高達670億台幣比台灣還嚴重新加坡小小一個國家267.2億美國 當然他國家大所以他被詐騙的案件也多他的經濟規模也大所以他4123億香港 小小一個香港就一年就被詐騙366億"},{"start":11994.164,"end":12004.885,"text":"所以我要講的是說我們確實要重視但是也必須要讓人民知道說現在這個詐騙大家都說怎麼詐騙集團我們政府為什麼抓不到"},{"start":12005.885,"end":12031.974,"text":"那就是因為這個詐騙不是我們台灣政府抓不到我們一直在抓一直在抓它現在變成我們現在執法單位大概佔了六成的案件六成以上的案件都是都是詐騙案等於每天的現在我們的警察機關我們的調查局我們的司法單位在處理最大宗的超過一半以上的業務就是在打詐但是打不完嘛不只台灣打不完全世界各國都打不完全世界各國都在打"},{"start":12033.516,"end":12055.812,"text":"所以這樣子的問題是但是我要講人民的感受是真實的認為說詐騙嚴重這是真實的這個我們也必須要了解民眾的感受讓我們政府盡力的來做啦那也有很多人尤其像這個太子集團這種個案之後很多人覺得說為什麼台灣詐騙嚴重因為台灣的刑罰太輕了台灣對詐騙的刑罰太輕了"},{"start":12060.56,"end":12079.391,"text":"那這個我們也要看這不是說我們說輕就輕我們說重就重要不然我們就詐欺犯罪唯一死刑夠重了吧我們要看全世界是不是其他的國家我們台灣是不是比其他國家的刑罰來得輕這我們也是要做國際的比較所以這個"},{"start":12082.677,"end":12111.032,"text":"我們看了日本 日本處時我們現在台灣目前是用這個刑法第339條跟339之4條兩條這個詐欺跟加重詐欺罪那另外我們有特別條例有這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例用第43條第44條來做一些加重的規定所以我們在比較的這個世界各國的刑度其實台灣的刑度並不輕"},{"start":12113.1,"end":12141.246,"text":"那是不是是說我們台灣把它加到多重大家才會覺得說那這樣有辦法遏止事實上全世界大家每一個國家都在想辦法要遏止遏止渣期這刑度大概台灣並沒有比其他國家輕這個部分我覺得我們法務部也要讓民眾了解其實包括我們未來我們現在正這個我們這個這個特別條例有一個修法已經送立法院了嗎現在那個現在在那個"},{"start":12143.028,"end":12159.169,"text":"這個已經送大院來已經要審議了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是高額詐欺這個比世界各國都還重很多對 我們高額詐欺事實上是而且我們還包括罰金那個罰金是大概世界其他國家沒有這個還沒有採取這個制度"},{"start":12164.814,"end":12189.782,"text":"這個我覺得也要讓民眾了解說事實上詐欺犯罪是現在現代每一個國家政府都頭痛在面對的問題我們台灣政府並沒有並不是說政府都在睡覺也並不是說我們都不懲罰不懲罰詐欺犯罪台灣變成詐欺犯罪的天堂 沒有這些詐欺全部都是跨境全球性的安全問題"},{"start":12191.94,"end":12216.756,"text":"那所以接下來我們就討論所以因為這樣因為人民有這種感受所以就有人就有人提出說那是不是要邊形入法是不是要把這個打炸要邊形我看到這個題目在我們立法院司法委員會出現我是真的是蠻驚訝的啦至少在邏輯上我們司法法治委員會在邏輯上我們應該是先討論台灣要不要"},{"start":12219.38,"end":12229.516,"text":"有詐欺這個刑罰要不要有邊刑這個刑罰這個是前提啊有邊刑這個刑罰之後才來討論哪一些刑罰是不是要採用邊刑不是嗎"},{"start":12231.55,"end":12259.525,"text":"部長對不對我們現在的刑法我們現在目前的刑法規定在刑法第32條33條目前有邊刑嗎有身體刑嗎這個是刑法的種類刑法的種類組刑的種類沒有邊刑所以這是一個刑法總則的問題所以今天提供說參考新加坡打詐邊刑入法是可行性評估事實上是應該要先評估台灣的刑法是不是要"},{"start":12260.445,"end":12286.654,"text":"是不是要採納邊形啊如果說我們召委覺得說應該要採邊形那你是立法委員 你就提案啊修改刑法第32條 33條把主刑納入邊形從這裡開始還對啊然後接下來刑法分責再來討論每一個刑法分責哪一些刑事犯罪 哪一些構成要件我們要刻以邊形啊收受賄賂讓建商提高這個"},{"start":12290.403,"end":12308.392,"text":"這個容積率 這個要不要編刑這個就可以討論 這個就是第二步刑法總職完了以後接下來討論酒駕要不要編刑 兒童 兒女要不要編刑然後再來討論這個收受境外資金來跟監人民這個要不要編刑一個一個案子 一種一種犯罪形態來討論這個才是符合邏輯啊"},{"start":12312.998,"end":12331.033,"text":"那現在直接就說在我國還沒有編刑這個制度之下來討論打渣要不要編刑這個邏輯實在是太跳躍了那這個編刑入法其實大家一直講新加坡編刑我們就來看全世界到底哪一些國家有編刑"},{"start":12332.623,"end":12356.819,"text":"如果邊形是這麼好的制度應該是全世界很多國家都會從沒有邊形去改成有邊形這個才是國際趨勢啊這才是如果說邊形這麼好應該是這樣子啊但是我們事實上我們看到是相反的越來越多的國家包括沙烏地阿拉伯越來越多的國家是從原來有邊形到廢止邊形這一定有它的道理嘛"},{"start":12358.558,"end":12385.743,"text":"我們不要說人權保護我們今天如果真的要修改刑法總則刑法分則要把邊刑入法可以討論其實人民大家也有很多很多人有這種想法說認為就是就打他就鞭打這個很好但是我們要來看看就如果我們要修改包括我們國內法不要說刑法總則不要說我剛講刑法分則要修改"},{"start":12386.687,"end":12405.727,"text":"你這個 我們現在兩公約是國內法現在兩公約不是國際公約兩公約現在是國內法化了它是台灣的法律如果我們要違反這個兩公約我們自己台灣立法院通過的立法要加入身體刑那我們這個兩公約我們也要面對啊"},{"start":12407.113,"end":12433.858,"text":"我們自己要國內法說要把兩公約說排除我們兩公約我們通通遵守但是身體型 酷刑的部分我們不遵守入法嗎這個我認為說邊形是可以討論因為畢竟有太多人太多台灣人民都認為說應該邊形不要說邊形啦我們甚至應該要討論說是不是可以開放民眾一般民眾到警察局前面毆打嫌犯"},{"start":12435.809,"end":12454.963,"text":"這個大家也都覺得去打這些嫌犯大家都覺得這些嫌犯該打啊既然大家都覺得該打是不是我們以後開放讓民眾都可以在警察局門口警察把嫌犯押出來先讓大家打一打再進去徵訊這不是我們所以我們討論問題就要從這個問題的源頭來討論這個其實現在我們看到全世界的邊形其實大概"},{"start":12465.578,"end":12493.906,"text":"就是以前英國對待殖民地在英國的殖民地留下來就像剛才我們主席講的在台灣的日治時代那時候日本對待殖民地也曾經有過邊形現在全世界在英國過去英國的殖民地已留下來邊形再來就宗教因素宗教因素 伊斯蘭教的教法他們有一些國家宗教因素他會保留邊形"},{"start":12495.592,"end":12522.874,"text":"我們看到這些國家台灣要加入這些國家的行列成為新的有邊形的國家大家來討論我們看為什麼世界上我們現在沒有看到什麼國家是從沒有邊形現在增加到變成有邊形但是我們確實看到很多有邊形的國家現在取消了邊形這個國際趨勢他一定有他的道理那我覺得要研議也很好在研議我們不是研議打詐要不要邊形"},{"start":12524.138,"end":12547.609,"text":"而是研議台灣要不要編刑這個問題要先研究出來你們先一個態度我們看這麼多立法委員在這邊台灣大家都覺得說要有編刑所以就在討論一下總質詢說要編刑一下說要編刑但是我在立法院沒有看到任何一個委員提案修改刑法第32條33條就直接說我提一個刑法修改草案才會納入編刑我沒看到辦個法案所以這個我是覺得"},{"start":12554.005,"end":12567.669,"text":"一般民眾的感受我們都要尊重而且我們要非常的去理解但是當我們作為一個立法者我們作為一個執法者我們就應該要把這個問題從根源的 全面的來看待認真的來面對以上好 謝謝沈委員那麼接下來請王一川委員發言"},{"start":12588.462,"end":12600.568,"text":"好 主席 謝謝接下來我也不知道要請誰上來請問如果行政院長要問說現在打炸打得怎麼樣來做個報告誰會上場報告就自己出來好 請打炸中心馬指揮官好 指揮官你是負責報告嗎委員好 對 我負責報告那你報告就報告儀表板是不是"},{"start":12616.813,"end":12644.648,"text":"報委員不是 其實我們有針對那個打仗行動綱領2.0我們有列管所有部會的績效好 那你們就是報告統計結果也不只 因為跟委員報我們主要是看整個詐騙案它發展的趨勢我知道 因為我看到你們中心的編制你們中心可以開放參觀嗎我們可以 我們只有10個人 很小沒辦法參觀啦 10個人裡面有什麼偉大的設備嗎只有辦公桌跟電腦"},{"start":12646.058,"end":12667.01,"text":"所以這個打炸中心聽起來就是一個類似匯報的單位我們是幕僚單位就是定期然後各部會帶著自己的資訊來大家匯報一下而且我們會預先部署很多政策那我請問一下中華民國如果要找到一個負責打炸的單位你覺得應該找誰"},{"start":12668.994,"end":12696.415,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們分散在好幾個部會所以我剛問說行政院長要問這件事情的時候到底誰要負責報告跟委員報告 我們會負責會診但是如果有特定的議題的話會找特定的部會報告那就代表沒有專責機構沒有錯因為我看你們的人員編制裡頭那些都是各單位派來的那派來的那些人都懂打詐嗎"},{"start":12697.944,"end":12717.601,"text":"報委 我們都是請部會派最好的人過來我在地方也當過局長我們市府都有一些很高層級的中心 委員會 編組各局處要派人去 都派那個層級很高的然後基本上都沒什麼效果"},{"start":12718.581,"end":12745.528,"text":"我們有面談所以我們跟委員會面談以後好啦 我只是提醒你們說中華民國真的要找到一個專責負責打炸的這個單位現在沒有啦是就是這個在院裡頭可能要討論一下因為國際上應該很多國家也有這種比較先進的設備啦 人員啦這一些編制比較好打炸啦好 謝謝你謝謝委員好 現在我們請這個警政署這個署長委員好"},{"start":12748.193,"end":12758.174,"text":"這個基層的員警啊我在這個今年我也好像也問過警政署啊那那個偵查隊啊"},{"start":12758.817,"end":12772.763,"text":"有人專門在每天都在辦這個詐騙 每天秋天案件都很多民眾就不時的說我又去用詐騙了 我去用詐騙了那我們的員警也疲於奔命 因為人力編織的問題嘛 疲於奔命我請問一下 我們這些員警在處理這種詐騙案件的時候 他們到底有沒有受過訓練"},{"start":12780.936,"end":12803.494,"text":"有 包委員 那我們對於員警的偵查犯罪那都會做定期的一個教育跟訓練那會做這樣的一個現行詐欺的整個相關的案例還有相關的這個手法那這些詐騙的這個整個的一個技巧和技術那個多久要再想一次"},{"start":12805.441,"end":12822.282,"text":"那些都不定時會去做老師是誰老師是有師資包括有刑事局包括有大隊的刑警大隊的偵查隊的偵查大隊的這些的一個專精的這些的偵查大隊他們學這個的老師是誰"},{"start":12823.663,"end":12837.633,"text":"他這個老師應該有一些也是也有我們業界的相關的這個知識的這些的你不覺得賣相的比較賣相的沒有啦 都賣相的 譬如講現在我請問一下啦現在最主要的以科技偵查的部分我請問一下 警察大學裡頭的老師啊因為你警察大學都教出來以後當警察嘛"},{"start":12846.028,"end":12870.157,"text":"警察大學的教授 副教授 助理教授現在有多少老師專門在研究詐騙目前在學校裡面大概有四位有做專精的研究詐騙中華民國四位警察大學教授還有業界外的外聘人員因為第一線交出來的警察請問一下這些課都開在什麼系"},{"start":12871.889,"end":12899.427,"text":"那多看看刑事科系 刑事科的刑事科 我剛查那個相關的科系的老師列出來的專長喔都沒有人有詐騙的所以有些他之前都做了一半 轉過來的啦有的就是學校裡面當然他是對這方面有做研究我沒有外聘的這個師資我知道 外聘的外聘的跟裡面的來做兼任的老師啦對 兼任的老師"},{"start":12901.528,"end":12908.131,"text":"研究一下 這裡警察大學學校研究一下 跟教保討論一下既然這個詐騙現在是新興的犯罪這個裡面老師 課程幫我們這個員警不只警察大學 包括我們的警專"},{"start":12918.263,"end":12921.567,"text":"在這個基層員警上課在學校上課就要學一些新的啦不然我們的員警查詐騙的技術遠遠不如詐騙集團老闆 我很抱歉我們行事局都是會調全國的各縣市的"},{"start":12937.066,"end":12941.11,"text":"來到中央來做訓練來做訓練訓練完之後再回去當種植的球員都是會做這樣不斷的對科技偵查的一個這樣的一個訓練跟你對偵查隊來講他們的基隆派來做詐騙的真好有時候他就再接下去還要上去還要上回去還要扮男"},{"start":12956.699,"end":12963.983,"text":"大家都很累啦 人力沒那麼多啦所以說學校裡面已經有加這幾份的他們就會就課程多開一點學生選修也可以那往這個方向可能以後再查這些案子的時候轉嫁一點不然你喔"},{"start":12977.148,"end":12980.971,"text":"外企員派來調查這個 他也每天很苦惱的我接著很嚴謹的跟我說 哇這個大約一半的時間都在辦詐騙因為量多嘛 量多啦所以接的案件每一個的量 剛剛有講大概60%大概都在偵辦詐騙這一塊大概跟這個"},{"start":12995.763,"end":13011.035,"text":"警察大學或警專 跟教育部 大家討論一下看老師 師資的朋友 能讓你們爭奪給 聘歸的跟專業的老師專門在教這個我們的研究強化對 研究強化 我想這應該是沒有人的反對接下來我請問一下 這個這應該是金管會銀行局"},{"start":13022.33,"end":13048.575,"text":"我們現在這個詐騙的這個金流或者是洗錢的金流現在對你們來說你們都是一種比較被動的預警被動 對你們發現有異常通報跟委員報告 我們會主動的去相關的金流我們會主動偵測那如果發現有異常金流我們都會主動的好 那你們是單筆異常還是這家公司很異常"},{"start":13049.793,"end":13061.931,"text":"我們會從金流來看那公司本身我們會審查他的一些背景條件我跟你們記一下這間公司假設每個月都差不多七百萬的進出平常他要出一條五百萬的你們會預計嗎"},{"start":13064.322,"end":13093.241,"text":"就過去實務上來講這個就是有出現異常的情況那異常銀行他會先做初步的篩選他不會說有跳出來異常他就馬上申報因為這麼多的量他會癱瘓到了我們洗錢防治處他的這個效能所以銀行他會基本的篩選過認為有值得申報的這種情資他才會去做申報那因為這些案子會就是這些洗錢案會越來越多所以相關的這些"},{"start":13094.182,"end":13117.951,"text":"程序上也都已經完成這些通報可是還是讓這些人得逞這些案子你們應該去彙整要有一些比較新的作為才不會說記錄上我們有通報我們有通報後面後端那個就是後邊的偵查的作為我們已經通報因為對後面的檢察官或者這些偵查的作為的時候"},{"start":13118.581,"end":13137.656,"text":"他們也是按照你們的通報才有機會繼續往下查因為你們那一端是最陰暗這端是最快的只是說這個通報的機制按照過去的經驗包括在洗錢洗到各式各樣的硬幣或者各式各樣的這個幣幣的時候你們應該要有更積極的這樣因為這案件越來越多應該都有經驗那國際上大家怎麼洗的"},{"start":13144.898,"end":13159.223,"text":"在台灣怎麼洗的洗到哪裡洗到哪裡的這一些機制啊我是建議銀行局這邊要更加主動去改善啦不是說把事情做好而已因為對後面辦案的這個單位來說他也是接受你們的提醒嘛或者是通報他們才會有作為他不知道這個銀行那邊錢發生了什麼事嘛好這一塊再請你們這個努力啦好不好好那這個馬指揮官啊"},{"start":13175.674,"end":13200.322,"text":"你交代的事情你要處理 要不然高雄高雄縣長 總統說來報告一下打炸狀況你去你疑問三不知 不惜可以表板都要幾件幾件我們不疑問三不知 我們掌握全局趨勢圖往下往上 很有作為 說那個就不好說那個就老人 詐騙也是還在的高雄縣總統或縣長把你吐槽這句 你就不能做什麼指揮官"},{"start":13201.717,"end":13230.331,"text":"我們總是要有一個 欸你如果說今天你看委員要去參觀打詐中心是不是說十個人 五隊都啊 現在一個比什麼棒這件事情跟院長我抱一下就是說要有一個看起來比較有性的東西嘛我們政府在打詐的東西比人家的詐騙集團都濃厚詐騙集團看你們辦公室看完回去就在笑我們會努力 我們會努力這時候要把我們做 要打我們"},{"start":13231.244,"end":13259.799,"text":"誰被打還不知道我們部會的這個設備跟這些基本上都是夠的我們是做會診不是設備啦 設備要電腦而已我是說那個技術啦我相信國際上你們應該都有去參訪國際上能怎麼打炸那個專業單位回來跟院長報告一下說我們這個要怎麼樣改善不然詐騙集團請我們說在這邊打炸中心這就對面了 要跟我們打炸這樣好不好好 好 加油謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":13262.654,"end":13276.171,"text":"好 謝謝王委員難得我跟王委員的這個在這個意見是一致的我剛非常我剛有聆聽了王委員最後的結論我非常贊同 打在中心真的要好好的要好好的檢討你們現在的這個功能"},{"start":13282.185,"end":13302.134,"text":"完全沒有發揮然後如果只是看打詐一表板或者是這個看看這個輿情分析這沒有什麼太大的意思了這個要要依據依照我們王委員的意見好好的這個重新再組織振作好那接下來請羅美玲委員"},{"start":13317.34,"end":13322.806,"text":"謝謝主席 有請金管會同局長好 請金管會委員好"},{"start":13330.118,"end":13347.568,"text":"局長好 局長這次我們有看到太子集團涉嫌你這個空殼公司在台灣購置11戶的豪宅跟26輛的豪車等高價的資產作為洗錢的工具其實除此之外其實有很多的不法集團洗錢最常用的就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":13349.429,"end":13375.485,"text":"那如果他們是利用國內登記的虛擬資產服務商的話至少我們還可以追查到他的金流然後救責可是如果是透過境外的虛擬資產平台洗錢的話那國內我們根本是無法管轄也難以追查那我有發現金管會在今年年初的時候其實我們有提出了虛擬資產服務法草案那特別有提到就是說要跟外國的政府"},{"start":13376.565,"end":13395.031,"text":"機構還有國際組織來做合作本身想了解是這是一個怎麼樣的模式以我們台灣在國際上的困境來講的話我們要如何建立官方的管道或者是我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織來防堵洗錢的行為請問區長是 各位委員報告"},{"start":13396.511,"end":13418.247,"text":"那個服務法本身目前現在行政院還在審查當中那未來有關於就是說整個洗房機制的一個跨國的合作那會建構在我們行政院洗房辦底下我們會不管是說從司法互助或者說金融機構之間怎麼樣去做相關的協作會在整個行政院洗房辦底下的一個通盤性的一個規劃"},{"start":13419.352,"end":13441.043,"text":"對 我現在想了解是國際上的這個合作因為本席剛剛有提到就是說其實有很多這個洗錢利用虛擬貨幣洗錢其實都是在國外的這個平台當然國際上的合作就非常的重要所以你們特別在草案的第五條特別提到說會跟國際來做合作那我們知道說其實這個部分一直以來都是有困難的"},{"start":13442.043,"end":13451.108,"text":"那既然你在法條裡面有特別提到這個部分所以我們想說如果是說沒有辦法建立官方的管道的話那我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織"},{"start":13454.069,"end":13474.168,"text":"國際組織可能在虛擬資產的部分因為是我們政企局負責我比較不是那麼的熟悉所以你不是那麼的熟悉這個部分我們再提取相關的報告給委員這個可以提書面給我了再來還有我想請教一下就是有關於APG就是亞太房子洗錢組織其實我們在1997年的時候就也是創始會員國"},{"start":13478.132,"end":13500.504,"text":"那這麼多年以來幾十年下來的話我不曉得說我們跟這個組織之間的互動到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況那到底發揮了什麼樣的作用或是說過去有哪些成功破破的洗錢的這些成功的案例這個局長知道嗎是那個就我初情的了解就是說我們參加那個APG事實上已經非常久我們也是創始會員國沒有錯"},{"start":13501.184,"end":13520.555,"text":"那最主要是APG它會對我們這些會員國它會進行相關的洗房評鑑那最近一次是在2018年我們接受APG的一個評鑑是得到亞洲區最佳的一般追蹤的一個規格那這個都是各部會在行政院洗房辦指導之下我們通力合作所展現出來的成果"},{"start":13521.588,"end":13539.545,"text":"它只是做一個評鑑的一個最主要是在評鑑是在評鑑所以其實上並沒有一些實際上說可以利用這個組織就是APG我們之間有怎麼樣的一個實際上的一個互動或是聯手或是聯訪這種動作都沒有聯訪的部分"},{"start":13539.705,"end":13553.833,"text":"可能是涉及到司法偵辦的部分那可能或許法務部那邊他有相關的一個對口單位但APG最主要是來看你這個國家整個洗房不管是法制執行面到底做得好不好對那我們是有接受他的一個評鑑"},{"start":13555.173,"end":13560.218,"text":"所以我也希望就是說因為我看年初你們就已經提出了這個法案當然現在還在行政院的討論審議當中我們也希望說這草案出來之後我們跟國際上真的是能夠有一個實質的合作關係"},{"start":13573.248,"end":13599.687,"text":"因為我知道說這部分過去我每次在詢問相關單位的時候常常就說跨國的部分可能很困難這是因為我們沒有管轄權我們因為在國際上的困境所以跟很多國家也沒有辦法可以建立一個正式的官方的管道居然說我們要有這個草案的出來當然就是想有決心就是要徹底的來"},{"start":13600.487,"end":13614.511,"text":"破除這些所謂的洗錢跟詐騙的行為當然有些部分可能局長你這邊沒有辦法馬上回答本席的這部分可能就需要麻煩您回去的時候用書面的方式以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅委員接下來請楊瓊英委員 楊委員"},{"start":13631.979,"end":13652.174,"text":"謝謝主席 楊潔芸發言本席邀請司法院法務部調查局行政院打詐指揮中心警政署金管會好 請這些機關的代表到台前 謝謝之所以請大家一起來"},{"start":13653.581,"end":13673.434,"text":"因為到目前為止民眾對於打炸他看不到成果而且坊間還有一句話說越打越炸這一句話對我們國家政府來講是一個很大的私信於民本席也不希望有這樣的聲音出來"},{"start":13674.435,"end":13692.45,"text":"所以今天之所以請大家一起上來到底誰可以負責能夠怎樣去調整所以就針對太子集團爆發的這個案子我們看到檢調單位開始從11月份去搜索47處拘捕了這些人"},{"start":13693.371,"end":13722.008,"text":"扣押的部分包括房屋、現金還有車子大概是45.3億左右這個金額甚至這個空貨公司也進駐到101如果不是美方來通報我們根本還沒有看到啟動的一個調查動作所以在整個事件當中認為是非常的荒腔走板"},{"start":13722.728,"end":13746.386,"text":"所以我代替民眾問了一句話政府在哪裡所有的單位都在這裡我要請問政府到底在哪裡因為金管系統事前的預警可以說是完全的失能那主動調查詐欺洗錢的單位又完全的失職所以人民認為我花了這麼多錢"},{"start":13748.208,"end":13775.179,"text":"我們的打榨中心到底在針對整個這個洗房的體系打榨體系他認為怎麼都失效了怎麼都失能了在這樣的情況之下呢因為本席看到你們的報告金管會說52次提出預警的一個通報52次提出預警的通報給調二局"},{"start":13775.979,"end":13796.427,"text":"那到底這個問題環節出在哪裡所以本期要請教各位太子集團這一次政府後知後覺抓不出來還要靠國外的人來通報那麼我們的機制問題到底出在哪裡請做說明來 哪一位"},{"start":13803.511,"end":13829.298,"text":"包委員 其實這一案子就是說以我們調查局跟警政署其實早有掌握不然的話不可能在美方它執行的兩週後我們就能夠馬上去查扣到這些不動產大家想也知道這麼龐大的資產我們怎麼可能兩個禮拜突然間能夠去掌握到這一定是事先經過很長的一段時間的修正掌握"},{"start":13829.798,"end":13845.745,"text":"那這中間最主要的功勞就是這些銀行他們歷年來的這些通報透過他們的這些通報我們在做加值的分析26件以後其實我們早就已經有分送相關的執法機關包含我們的國際友方"},{"start":13846.525,"end":13872.933,"text":"所以這是一個整個跨國性的犯罪以我們台灣來講的話我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際是同步在執行這樣的一個案件這裡面包含了美國也是在10月14號執行英國也是然後我們在11月4號然後接著還有香港 新加坡大家都是在這個階段裡面同步去執行的所以"},{"start":13874.133,"end":13886.638,"text":"其實不能說是我們在這個部分有什麼失靈的部分其實這個金管會跟相關的金融機構的這些申報其實發揮了非常大的功能我必須要為他們講一句話"},{"start":13887.942,"end":13916.882,"text":"這就要在你所說的說明你認為你們盡了很大的力才能夠有這樣的一個成效接下來本席要請教民間的一個認知跟我們被詐的數字跟剛剛所說的似乎是有不同調那接下來本席要請教連行政院長都已經出生"},{"start":13919.003,"end":13934.631,"text":"你們抓了法務部15萬人交保外界給予的認知這麼重大的數字你們認為要怎麼樣告訴民眾這樣子的一個決策是對還是不對 來"},{"start":13938.864,"end":13962.806,"text":"這個案件有拘捕了24名那我們就是涉案情節的一個不同像那個核心幹部我們有生押了台北地檢署有生押了5個核心幹部那法院那部分有裁押了4位獲准一位圖信的被告他是交保30萬元那這部分我們有看到告院是駁回的所以核心幹部這一部分有4個押"},{"start":13963.787,"end":13976.194,"text":"四個羈押獲准一個是被法官改交保三十萬另外其餘的被告那部分我們按涉案的情節就有不同的強制准包括交保限制科控等等的其他的一個作為"},{"start":13978.325,"end":13997.698,"text":"那這個太子現在什麼你特助10萬交保那個是以涉案的情節涉案的情節以及他的職位的涉案情節等等的因素來做一個交保的一個處分並不是有什麼中放的如果有中放的話那核心幹部那個有聲要或者獲得法院的一個支持謝謝你的說明"},{"start":13999.66,"end":14013.28,"text":"連行政院長都震怒當行政院長震怒的時候也代表了人民的聲音那請教各單位你們有給行政院長去說明嗎你們有表示你們的立場嗎"},{"start":14016.612,"end":14035.374,"text":"有沒有哪一個單位連行政院長都震怒因為這個是必須跨機關當然相關同仁是很辛苦但是我覺得這個政府到底出了什麼事你們每一個人都說我很努力而且我做得很好了可是你的行政院長震怒啊"},{"start":14037.694,"end":14065.68,"text":"這怎麼回事呢是行政院長亂震怒還是怎麼回事還是我們的機制在整個跨機關裡頭的領域我們有怎麼樣的精進角度我想這個就是打造這個是我們全民的心聲那我們打造團隊是全民的心聲啊因為全民已經心聲恐懼啊所以我們打造的也一往承請那個居了查獲那麼多的一個財產那我們希望"},{"start":14066.34,"end":14085.934,"text":"那個希望就是整個一個在溯源在一個追查那我想這部分也請委員能夠了解說我們這個打炸的團隊是非常用心而且是有成果其實現在的案件量跟整個一個採取量都有下降的一個趨勢當然這個氣焰還是它那個像炸斷式變形蟲一樣它還是不斷的一個演化"},{"start":14087.415,"end":14114.572,"text":"就不斷的演化那這部分表示說它為什麼要演化就是說它被我們才有績效它還要再想辦法弄一個新的一個你現在所討論的是整個過程但是民眾要看的是結果我怎麼樣能夠安全所以本身告訴你說如果加大管控的一個力道它能有效的來主炸來打炸我相信人民它在一定程度的這個氛圍上面它是接受的"},{"start":14115.132,"end":14128.443,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我們真的不希望連行政院長都已經震怒有人說大胃你不敢抓你只有老民稍微他這個多一點像小戶的像忽編打的像網拍的稍微他多一點進出或者是"},{"start":14135.269,"end":14138.152,"text":"好久沒有用的這個帳號馬上就給他來作為預防性的一個凍結等等我想這些是民眾的心聲我們代表著民眾來告訴政府民眾的心聲他們的希望是什麼所以我給你一個結論也就是我們從整個通報在我們的這個"},{"start":14160.149,"end":14180.066,"text":"情報分析以及跨部會的一個協作到國際資產的一個追蹤本席認為我們都還有很大的一個精進空間因為最重要的是它是整個跨部會整個跨部會這應當要能夠有所精進作為你認為呢"},{"start":14181.475,"end":14206.176,"text":"這時候我們一直在做一個打仗都要做一個合作那我們保護部是懲詐的主宰機關我們就從個案的辦理去檢視看看我們各個機關的全管制司可以再做一個測盡的作為這個就對了因為到底是你的工具不夠到底是你的決策沒有辦法及時這個就是本席所說的整個盡進方案"},{"start":14207.617,"end":14223.208,"text":"就是一個滾動式的調整所以本席認為也有人在研擬我們在整個大型的洗錢詐騙企業能夠進行行政制裁快速的金融制裁並且立即凍結詐騙資金的法規你認為呢"},{"start":14227.831,"end":14238.729,"text":"我們都一直在隨時在滾動式的檢討我們希望這個是不是支持這樣的一個方向這個我們本來就在做了可能可以更敘述你的法規還不夠啊所以才導致現在的這個狀況啊"},{"start":14241.982,"end":14270.1,"text":"這個我們一直在做一直在做滾動式的一個精進的作為你將本席所具體建議的剛剛所說的行政制裁快速金融制裁以及凍結詐騙資金的一個法規你去研擬到你目前在進行當中的你認為有哪一些精進可以讓我們更有效能這是民眾要支持政府好好的來幫助民眾這才是對的一個政策跟決策 對不對"},{"start":14272.121,"end":14293.947,"text":"這個我想我們先努力你們去研擬 研擬出來的方案給本席看這個方向打架 因為這個是官部會只有打架國家對那個行政院打架那個打架辦公室來做一個統合打架辦公室 來 主任委員好之所以大家都站起來因為不知道誰要負責"},{"start":14295.871,"end":14314.921,"text":"不知道誰要負責 一個環節扣一個環節所以分工合作 但分工合作要有分進合集呀對不對 所以我們現在指揮中心在統合 就是在政策面指揮中心跟阿本席所提出的這樣的方向你去精進方案好 這個我們來研擬"},{"start":14316.721,"end":14345.568,"text":"我們也希望工具方面可以更加的精進我們也希望決策方面可以更加的與時近近才能夠真正保護民眾嘛謝謝委員我們現在在進行打詐條例的二次修法那也要請大院支持你們什麼時候要送出來我們已經送了我們已經送過來了那個內容呢有包括本席剛剛所說的嗎我們送一份草案到委員辦公室有包括剛剛本席所提出的嗎行政裁罰有嗎我們包括刑度提高整個都有處理行政裁罰有嗎"},{"start":14346.567,"end":14372.507,"text":"有 行政裁罰我們是罰款行政裁罰不是罰款這個是行度跟金額的提高所以您注意聽 本席剛才所說的如果針對於大型的這個部分在我們整個企業等進行行政制裁跟快速金融制裁跟地級凍結詐騙資金這個部分最重要"},{"start":14372.827,"end":14391.619,"text":"要不然你抓到了沒有錢也沒有用所以這樣子的規章才能夠真正的幫助民眾你們去研議好不好跟你們現在所送來的方向是不一樣嗎我們送一份草案到委員辦公室委員再跟我們知道送一份草案這個本席有因為你們的方案跟本席所說的不一致"},{"start":14392.503,"end":14408.826,"text":"方向不一樣 你們去研擬本席所說的這個方向 真正能夠讓我們更有效能 好吧 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝楊委員 那接下來我們請李昆城委員發言"},{"start":14420.157,"end":14426.688,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請法務部曾部長調查局陳局長銀行局的通局長"},{"start":14434.212,"end":14461.17,"text":"大家好 辛苦了在上個禮拜三的時候其實我就在金管會我們就問過這個問題了那時候我是認為說我們都是要等到美國的司法部還有財政部要求台灣配合調查之後我們才開始展開這個行動所以那時候我也問了這個同局長就是說你們這個申報的資料到底有沒有交給這個調查局還有有關的單位那時候同局長的答覆是說有 有做了52次的申報"},{"start":14462.271,"end":14474.629,"text":"那這方面我先請這個同區長再做細一點的答覆這52次的申報是從2019年開始嗎那是分幾年申報了幾次還是都是在2019年申報的"},{"start":14476.074,"end":14490.791,"text":"一半的這個量是在2019年的時候申報的一半 一半 26次 2019年那之後咧大概就是其中有22次的部分是集中在2019年的時候就108年的時候"},{"start":14494.255,"end":14508.586,"text":"那之後是因為有些案件是因為它金額的往來並不是很大那因為被媒體揭露了之後這些金融機構才進行相關的申報那所以後來到最後申報是到哪個時候"},{"start":14509.687,"end":14518.517,"text":"就是到最新的大概是現在為止到現在為止 對那分佈時間也很久從2019年你說20幾次 22還26大概22次22次申報那後來還有30幾次就是從2019 2020年到現在也5年的時間陸陸續續會申報好"},{"start":14528.388,"end":14543.798,"text":"那我問了之後那這個可能要請陳局長來做答覆了那我想說那52申報為什麼沒有任何的舉動啊沒有採取任何的行動啊那隔天你們就發布了新聞稿就說有你們有去做了延邊加值金融情報26件就表示這26件是有情報價值的"},{"start":14546.24,"end":14556.891,"text":"這可以繼續再追查下去的對 會診出來又覺得更有可疑的我們就把它研編出來然後分送給那也是在2019年的時候嗎不是 這從2019年到現在陸陸續續陸陸續續好 那我問了26件你們認為說有這個情報價值然後呢 之後呢"},{"start":14566.237,"end":14595.106,"text":"按兵不動等到美國的司法部財政部要求要調查之後我們才開始做謝謝 謝謝委員給我們有這個機會說明其實在這個過程裡面其實就是點點滴滴我們透過這樣子的一個金融情報去標定到特定的人然後從特定的人再去標定到特定的公司然後從人 公司再去標定到和平大院的這些資產跟這些豪車還有銀行的帳戶那當然這中間有包含"},{"start":14595.826,"end":14620.388,"text":"調查局也有包含刑事局那所以這五年的時間你們怎樣埋伏然後暗兵不動然後要等待什麼時機咧一方面清查然後一方面我問局長就是說為什麼沒有採取行動那還是部長可以回答我為什麼沒有採取行動我就可以回答因為這個部分必須要有前置犯罪洗錢的犯罪必須要所以那時候沒有認為說他們有洗錢的嫌疑嗎"},{"start":14621.549,"end":14635.26,"text":"有嫌疑一來一去我們50萬就要通報了他有嫌疑但是我們就要找到說這一筆錢他到底前置犯罪是什麼因為他這是一個跨國的一個詐騙所以他在台灣他從2019年開始之後"},{"start":14640.083,"end":14656.522,"text":"在台灣買了八棟的這個豪宅八戶啦 八戶的這個豪宅然後呢 金額總共花了38億然後這個豪宅呢 都是登記在同一個人身上那個人的這個忠義叫做林忠良這個你們都有掌握到嘛"},{"start":14657.703,"end":14680.622,"text":"你們沒有認為說他是不是洗錢啊為什麼在和平大院買了8戶然後總共花了38億然後都是集中在2019年密集買入而且這些8家公司都是空殼公司都登記在豪宅裡面你們沒有任何的懷疑有當然有懷疑有懷疑然後呢所以我們現在因為這個本案的主嫌從110年出境他就沒有再進來了"},{"start":14682.775,"end":14700.414,"text":"那在台灣沒有任何人了嗎台灣就是他的這些我問局長如果沒有美國司法部財政部要求我們配合調查的話所以繼續在那邊等待嗎其實本案美國沒有要求我們配合調查本案美國在起訴的時候他也沒有通知我"},{"start":14701.575,"end":14716.686,"text":"對但是那為什麼剛好大家都是14號 15號開始他一公告制裁的時候我們就知道就是說大家都動了所以當然這個時候我們也有默契我們就馬上要啟動這個案件這個相關的這些資產的扣押所以也是有通知我們嘛"},{"start":14718.475,"end":14733.255,"text":"這個不用他通知我們其實看新聞看上對有默契這個大家國際之間大家有默契我那時候說如果不是在司法部起訴之後列了這一個有台灣人的名字然後還有酒後在和平大院裡面你們不會採取行動對不對"},{"start":14734.296,"end":14752.437,"text":"他是說酒家公司美國也不知道有資產在理財院我的問題大家的疑問我早上聽了這麼久就是說你們已經有情報了然後也知道說在這邊有掌握有掌握然後呢就沒有然後了所以就是說在美方公告制裁以後我們在兩國內我們就要馬上執行"},{"start":14754.799,"end":14782.396,"text":"宣告制裁之後我們才開啟行動嘛對不對那大家的疑問就在於說那如果沒有美國的這一次制裁的行動的話那我們是不是就繼續在那邊安兵不動繼續的等在那邊我們也想要抓到陳志啊講白了一點就是這樣子啊你們又想要抓到他如果祖賢他沒有入境的話我們怎麼會去除了祖賢之外難道旁邊沒有周圍那些小弟嗎你沒抓到大頭沒有用啊"},{"start":14783.693,"end":14810.658,"text":"那所以你就在那邊一直等嗎我的意思是說就在那邊一直等嗎而且你對於他們洗錢洗把這個錢洗成說這個豪宅名車你們沒有任何的一些警覺性嗎這個就算你們這段期間做了很多的努力這個14號之後當美國的司法部一起訴之後你們馬上就說有 我們都準備好了你看我們都已經知道說誰是誰了豪宅名車我們都知道了隔幾天就馬上去追了"},{"start":14812.236,"end":14835.281,"text":"可是如果沒有美國的這個行動的話那是不是都還是在那邊大家彼此都還在情報交換其實大家也都想要去抓到這個層次不是啊 那你現在層次也沒有進來我們還不是要照抄因為就是說大家通通都已經曝光了那當然我們不執行不行我們不執行的話他的資產萬一移走我們不是更糟"},{"start":14836.321,"end":14851.306,"text":"這個就是大家在懷疑的地方那這個也是到目前為止我認為啦因為我早上也有聽我認為就是不論是部長局長或是說各位沒有把大家心中的疑點說出來你就是等到15號之後才開始行動了嘛之前都是準備埋伏"},{"start":14854.65,"end":14877.162,"text":"是這樣子所以你是要等到美國的信號是這樣子美國的信號開始之後才開始追包委員還有另外一個重點因為他這個整個的犯罪其實是在國外以我們台灣我在台灣我意思是說他把錢洗成豪宅跟民車把資產藏在一部分是洗了45億一部分"},{"start":14878.102,"end":14904.929,"text":"其他國家更多英國有1.3億的美金我說在台灣至少有洗了45億嘛對不對是 他把資產藏在那邊那為什麼你們沒有按照什麼洗錢防治法做任何的對 所以就我剛剛跟委員報告了洗錢防治法它有前階段的前置犯罪我們必須要掌握到前置犯罪50萬就要申報了50萬就要銀行就要金融機構就要跟你們申報了申報是沒有犯罪啊申報 對 申報沒有犯罪那就有警覺了嘛對啊"},{"start":14907.943,"end":14933.184,"text":"所以你們認為說之前都沒有犯罪的行為就對了所以沒辦法去抓他我們在監控因為在國內其實因為他的犯罪在國外在國內我們也還沒有找到我們國內是洗錢不然我們現在是用什麼去抓他組織犯罪條例組織犯罪條例還有其他等等那如果按照局長講的這犯罪都在國外那我們為什麼用組織犯罪條例去抓他"},{"start":14935.302,"end":14961.552,"text":"因為這案子還有前段的一個過程就是112年的時候他們有內訌他們其實彼此互相告過好 那又是另外一個story了沒有 現在就是大家大家的疑問就在於說如果沒有美國的這個起訴書的話我們就是在看說好 那就等這個城市哪時候會進來或是說等發生什麼事情再來做處理就對了那就大家還在合作大家各國都要抓到想要抓到他"},{"start":14962.907,"end":14992.297,"text":"現在沒有 他沒有出現我們也是照辦對不對因為美方已經動了我們當然就是要動答案就是說美方動起來我們才動我們其實是國際同步執行好 我再來問一下那個童局長來 謝謝局長這個案子我看你們今天的報告你們有提到說有10家本國銀行跟太子集團旗下10家公司還有關聯戶有存款的往來有沒有包含這個公股銀行目前沒有目前沒有 好"},{"start":14993.393,"end":15005.521,"text":"然後呢 這個最早開戶追溯到2018年然後你說三家銀行這是你們的報告三家銀行有受信的往來這什麼意思是有跟他們受信買豪宅 買豪車嗎"},{"start":15008.147,"end":15026.268,"text":"最主要是借户他在銀行他有定存美金那他想要用定存單的把美金的定存單直接出來變成台幣去買他的標的物所以這個壽星往來大概就是借戶他本身跟銀行有定期存款"},{"start":15027.569,"end":15054.161,"text":"你說白話文一點是什麼意思就是說它在銀行本來就已經有存定存那存定存不是只有在這三家十家都有不是嗎但大部分就是說它會跟這三家所謂有壽性往來最主要是因為它有存美金的定存那因為它要去買比較高價的標的物所以它不要把美金的定存解出來它就說好那我把美金定存直接出來借成台幣去買那所以這些豪宅是這樣子買的嗎"},{"start":15055.782,"end":15071.83,"text":"就是太陽不一但是只要大額交易可以交易銀行都有盡到他該申報的義務那所以這三家銀行沒有問題嗎我們有進行相關的經檢在洗錢房子申報的過程裡面他們都有盡到該盡的義務所以沒有問題"},{"start":15073.343,"end":15100.658,"text":"就洗錢防治的申報義務作為這個部分是沒有問題的那我覺得蠻奇怪的啦這個你們或許有你們的精簡的一個原則因為上次我有問那這個彭主委他也有提到就是說未來啦有關於這個洗錢你把它洗洗到買豪宅洗到買豪車 民車這個幾乎是這個詐騙集團的標配了那我們沒有任何的防治的作為嗎"},{"start":15102.593,"end":15112.921,"text":"就是說像你有提到說這個資料不是只有給調查局比如內政部他有地政室然後經濟也送到協防中心等等這個能不能串起來"},{"start":15114.4,"end":15136.994,"text":"就是說因為現在大家都知道說要去把這個錢洗成豪宅啊洗成民車啦那沒有任何的規範嗎根委員報告現在洗錢防治法的規範是我們這些監理機關會要求所轄的機構把相關的情資統一送到我們國家的FIU就是洗錢防治處所以我不會把洗錢防治處是調查局的吧然後勒"},{"start":15137.754,"end":15149.786,"text":"所以包括你這邊所講的像地政室他也納管就是說在做這個大筆的不動產買賣的時候他也必須要把相關的情形這次有嗎這次有嗎這次買豪宅有嗎有嗎 局長有嗎沒有"},{"start":15157.31,"end":15173.028,"text":"委員你問到重點我之前有白問的就對了依照那個洗錢防治法除了金融機構他有申報的義務其實那個不動產經濟業還有地震室他也都有申報的義務他有申報嗎"},{"start":15174.429,"end":15201.323,"text":"對 沒有沒有申報以本案來說就是說我們未來還需要再進進的地方應該就是我剛提到這兩部分但是就銀行來講我剛已經有講過銀行他該盡的責任他已經申報了但他買了這麼多豪宅其實在這中間會經過不動產經濟業者也會經過地震室那不動產經濟業跟地震室其實應該也要去做KYC這個接下來漏洞要怎麼補起來"},{"start":15204.882,"end":15218.14,"text":"這個大概我們會跟相關的部會去建議應該這是監理的問題這是哪裡 內政部嗎監理的問題我們有提出建議我們到時候會提出建議你們要趕快把這個洞補起來"},{"start":15220.842,"end":15247.681,"text":"如果每次看到新聞詐騙集團被抓到之後他們就是住豪宅就是開民車大家覺得說就住詐騙集團就好了對 這個本案雖然其實我們有成功的扣到這些整個太子集團的這些資產但是台高檢署其實也針對本案也召開了各部會的一個會議來研究說就這個案子來說我們還有沒有什麼可以再精進的地方就像你剛才講的"},{"start":15248.782,"end":15276.573,"text":"那委員問的啦對啊就是這個要把它補起來這段時間把它補起來好不好謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員那麼接下來就請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在高金素美委員"},{"start":15277.23,"end":15283.094,"text":"高金素美委員高金素美委員不在那陳婉婷委員麻煩請發言 謝謝你好 我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":15301.632,"end":15315.064,"text":"部長好部長上次質詢的時候我們是針對這個詐欺能不能夠把詐欺的前科犯他把他的賬戶資訊提供給金融機構讓他們做重點的去勾擊然後事先去防範"},{"start":15315.945,"end":15332.852,"text":"那時候我們得到回復是因為缺乏法源嘛包含這個不起訴處分書起訴書應該是不能夠提供給非相關人士那獄警中心的資料也要去識別化因此現在是比較保留那部長這個我剛才的這個論述是正確的嗎"},{"start":15336.468,"end":15360.865,"text":"這部分這個不能夠要去四倍化這個的確是沒有錯那那個預警中心這部分我們會有把一些可疑的這些我們辦的可疑的帳戶跟那個同時那個金融機構金融機構也會把他們發現可疑的交易的資料給我們那其實這一種的機制是相當好也有一些的重大的成果包括台北地檢署預警中心他們"},{"start":15362.767,"end":15379.606,"text":"經過這個機制他們有一個斬金專案他也查獲了一百多 將近兩百億的這些的交易被害的金額高達一百六十幾億另外那個被害人高達好幾千人那這個陸續發生的這些的成效出來了"},{"start":15380.612,"end":15394.96,"text":"好 部長那我來講一下就是說過去這一兩個禮拜我有分別去質詢警政署警管會跟數位部那我們一起來想一個比較經濟的方案但是這些方案必須要合法要有法源那甚至是要"},{"start":15396.438,"end":15422.478,"text":"邏輯性也要有那才不會說我們我自己來去提案倡處立法但其實沒有符合任何的效益所以我質詢警政署跟軍管會的時候他們是有提到說如果說修法授權讓警方能夠提供有詐欺相關前科或者是通緝資料給予金融機構的話他們認為是可以大幅提升防詐的效率或者是協助金融單位在事前在事前識別高風險對象"},{"start":15423.599,"end":15450.024,"text":"那金管會是說如果有這個明確的法源授權的話他們願意導入他們的金融機構風險的系統去進行攻擊那跟內政部跟警政署來進行資料交換跟機制那數位部他們是說因為有TRO的存在所以這些傳輸的話是可以在資安的前提之下把這些訊息來去傳遞那所以我們我自己的想法是沒有要求要全面公開個資因為這對主帳沒有幫助"},{"start":15451.864,"end":15478.005,"text":"我們是針對高風險就是我剛剛提到的他有前科或者是他現在還在被通緝或者是他有起訴書的這些狀況之下先給金融機關或者是先給監管的機關這一些的資訊不是要用來職工內部做事前的做這個來去做勾結而已他並沒有說不讓他使用這些金融機構的服務"},{"start":15479.506,"end":15500.456,"text":"如果在這樣子的前提之下不知道部長有沒有可能把這一些從賬戶擴大到已經判決確定的詐欺前科犯如果只是限縮在以判決確定的詐欺前科犯這樣子的原則上是可不可以做可不可以由這樣子的修法你的法律的見解是怎麼樣"},{"start":15502.136,"end":15528.946,"text":"這部分我有關心事實上我們目前在做的是在提供潛在被害名單給金融帳戶因為我們是主被害名單被害名單是主帳因為加害人如果說他有前科的我們不能夠預想說他就是會成為加害人現在我們潛在的被害因為這是行政監管但是在臨櫃的時候或者是在有潛在的被害人我們發現有些被害的這些的"},{"start":15531.067,"end":15544.762,"text":"的名單的話我們是希望在前面監管單專業管單就把它攔阻下來不要它成為被害人所以 不然我再重複一下你是說在你是用潛在的被害名單對 被害名單我的意思是說"},{"start":15546.075,"end":15570.857,"text":"我們包含在辦率是23%這個我們之前有提過這一些已經有累犯的就甚至我們好我們把前科犯把他因為可能過於敏感我們再把他劃掉我們針對已經有累犯他已經有前科又累犯又是詐欺犯這樣子的狀況之下有沒有辦法做這樣子的修法讓他們可以做相關的提供這部分我們再來"},{"start":15573.268,"end":15598.027,"text":"另外最主要是因为这刚才委员关心的就是这个全科这是属于个资法第六条的特种的个资那是不是适合去提供给金融机构去做一些的一些预防的措施或者是它开户或者是风险的控管那这部分可能还要再研究因为我现在我们可以就是我就再把它限说到"},{"start":15598.507,"end":15625.776,"text":"詐欺的累犯因為過去我們包含酒駕的這種重複犯罪的話我們是可以直接把他的這一個包含他的這個相片還有他的過去的這個作案的這種詳細的狀況直接在網站上面都給他揭露出來所以是不是有可能來去做一個特別的修法來去針對累犯的前科犯累犯的這個累犯的詐欺犯把這個東西的資訊提供給金融機構做監管這部分我們在"},{"start":15627.276,"end":15643.388,"text":"因為我是希望可以跟法務部來討論一下就這個法條上面的不能夠來一起來研究一下好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":15656.051,"end":15668.601,"text":"很訝異我們這個司法院副秘書長沒有來他讓人失落了失望了沒想到廳長有來那我們只能問廳長好來聽聽你起來來有請廳長國民法第六條第一項第四款規定就是說這個"},{"start":15683.291,"end":15694.68,"text":"有這種例外的狀況可以這個不適用國民法官法啊上次你旁邊這個人叫什麼名字上次當然回答我你是女法官我們刑事廳的法治法官"},{"start":15700.765,"end":15718.936,"text":"我在問他說你們那個我問你們副秘書長結果你們與法官來回答我問你們說啊可以不適用國民法官法審理就是第一項第四款有規定被告就被訴事實為有罪的陳述我認罪了"},{"start":15719.896,"end":15736.911,"text":"然後再來經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當我問你們說這個條文後半段是什麼意思什麼叫做依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當可不可以舉個例子給我聽聽看你們與法官講了"},{"start":15743.177,"end":15764.903,"text":"他說涉及到生命法益的 對吧 法官你當時這樣講吧我再問你說 什麼狀況可以不要適用國民法官審理你再跟我講涉及到生命法益的 那就是一定本來就適用了一定要用 我問你叫 可以哪些不用用你回答我說一定要用的你把我整笑了 來 聽電話你說"},{"start":15767.41,"end":15785.882,"text":"跟委員說明一下國民法官的立法意旨沒有不要跟我講那麼多時間有限你就回答我這第四款的這個文字第一個當事人這個已經認罪了後半段是什麼意思你舉個例子讓我了解一下"},{"start":15787.113,"end":15802.165,"text":"譬如說他量刑的部分他跟檢察官的求刑或是辯護的或是被告的對刑度的部分你現在是在亂講什麼經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行"},{"start":15805.132,"end":15821.644,"text":"國民參與審判為是當這句話是在說什麼委員會不會讓我慢慢把它陳述出來這個條文你們 你就回答我這個就好我不需要你再去論述法律是你們定的 條文也是你定的叫你舉例說明你舉不出來啊"},{"start":15822.932,"end":15851.693,"text":"我要舉例的說這個是跟他講說可以行國民法官的時候對不對我們會跟他講說你要不要認罪那你認罪之後呢他認為說他可能對相關的刑度或者是證據調查他都全部沒有什麼特別的意見那法院認為說檢察官或是辯護人對相關的請求不行國民法官的請求任何適當的話就可以不讓他進行國民法官回到通常程序去審理"},{"start":15852.654,"end":15880.02,"text":"是這個情形啊對 你講得太好了所以我在跟你講有個案發生啊個案就是第一個 當事人認罪了啊量刑上他也沒意見啊然後跟被害者的家屬也和解了啊然後呢 被害人家屬也表達說我們不想用國民法官審理啊然後你們的第六條第一項第四款也允許啊你們的法官不准人家不准人家"},{"start":15881.752,"end":15897.146,"text":"回到一般審理耶你們這個個案是這樣你們這條法律定罪是在沒好法律啦條件通通都符合了但法官就不願意為什麼你知道嗎因為跟事務分配有關啊第一個"},{"start":15897.987,"end":15901.628,"text":"你這個法官把他交到交到這個國民法官來審理的時候我讓你折抵案件你分案量可以折很少但是你不能中途而廢也不能夠中途停止也不能夠允許被告退出你認罪了然後你呢對這個刑責也沒有意見了和解了他還是不准他退出為什麼你知道嗎因為"},{"start":15925.876,"end":15950.305,"text":"因為要到判決 國民法官審理到判決結束一個成審法官還可以再減10個分案還可以再折抵10個分案 多香多甜啊可不可以給我一點時間跟委員說一下各法院對於事務分配跟審理國民法官案件跟一般案件的折抵進行 每個法院都不一樣"},{"start":15952.106,"end":15973.315,"text":"每個法案的分案方式也不一樣以台中地院為例你說說看平均分案的時候折抵幾件判決的時候折抵幾件完全都不一樣有的從審理你平均啊你不要在這裡顧左右而言我沒辦法比平均因為每個折抵方式完全不一樣以台中地院為例它這幾個分給審判長的我告訴你你不要再告訴我第六條 第一項 第四款這個規定不好的有什麼不好"},{"start":15980.558,"end":16000.244,"text":"符合規定你們的法官來硬要人家陪你們完成這個國民法官的審判不行國民法官這是個例外我們不希望由當事人來選擇行國民法官或是不行國民法官所以這由法院來做最終的裁量更個案的裁量來決定你們其實就是要鼓勵要這個國民參審啦這個問題很嚴重耶現在國民法官的問題還不只是這樣子喔"},{"start":16010.96,"end":16026.141,"text":"現在我問你啦國民法官審理的時候職業法官跟國民法官可以事先閱卷嗎不可以事先閱卷 我們是採取卷證不併送所以卷證不併送 對嘛可是你們的職業法官都已經提早知道卷沒有啊"},{"start":16028.146,"end":16042.857,"text":"我們還特別在法院組織法第四條之一你們要開庭的時候強制處分庭跟國民法官法庭要把它分開本來審理的法官跟強制處分庭的法官分開沒關係 你現在不要說理論的理論上是這樣子但實際上就不是這樣子為什麼要卷證不並送"},{"start":16049.241,"end":16061.372,"text":"我們就避免偏見跟欲斷對 避免偏見跟欲斷可是法官沒有卷你們在開準備庭程序準備的時候是不是這一個職業法官在開的"},{"start":16062.827,"end":16064.308,"text":"但是他看不到內容他只有看到證據的一些清單跟名稱而已有 你們在準備庭的時候檢察官會開示證據然後要申請證據調查"},{"start":16079.521,"end":16084.666,"text":"開示證據是開示給辯護人互相開示這個是證據開示我再問你他要申請證據調查你的職業法官會不會問啊問說啊你這個為什麼要這樣主張否則職業法官怎麼判斷要不要給他看他是根據他的所謂的他主張要申請調查就讓他說明證據的關聯性"},{"start":16100.22,"end":16104.083,"text":"證據的關聯性就會講到案情所以你們預斷先入為主有心證怎麼不會呢他要判斷要不要給國民法官看是職業法官在決定這個職業法官必須在審理時間調查證據之後才把證據提出來交給當場調查證據完畢之後相關的證據才附卷"},{"start":16127.949,"end":16135.399,"text":"檢辯會申請要調查證據法官要裁定要不要提供證據給國民法官看法官要怎麼裁定的標準會問他們為什麼需要"},{"start":16143.172,"end":16165.235,"text":"對 沒錯為什麼學院就會講到關聯性關聯性跟必要性的調查但是不涉及到裡面的內容關聯性必要性就是資訊你的法官 學院法官就不是空白跟國民法官一樣空白好 為什麼不給國民法官看證據這個要不要給他們看這個事情很重要"},{"start":16166.396,"end":16179.685,"text":"有可能啊 某一個被告他做了四份筆錄有沒有可能檢察官申請 我只看兩份有沒有可能這是慎選證據的結果啊對啊 但是檢察官為什麼慎選證據你知道嗎他可以把不利於被告的 他是檢察官的出證 他可以你常常 我不跟你說 你要聽我說我問題要不說 你在搶著干擾我的發言"},{"start":16190.748,"end":16218.31,"text":"某個被告他做了四份筆錄檢察官有沒有可能把這個不利於這個被告的就申請請求提供要提供這個證據筆錄給這個可能兩份而已給這個國民法官看可是一共有四份他只申請兩份有沒有可能的確有可能那他是不是篩選過的 是"},{"start":16220.529,"end":16237.952,"text":"那職業法官在審理的時候在那裡他要裁釋如果職業法官真的不知道沒有看過卷證他們不知道有幾份嘛他就說好裁定兩份可是事實上有四份四份裡面有可能有利於被告的他可能就沒有申請了"},{"start":16240.158,"end":16244.102,"text":"然後呢 被告你沒有 我上禮拜來這裡審理你沒有 所有被告都簽沒法官 普通法官不該發這種訴訟然後呢 有專報 將近九成都是法服的律師"},{"start":16255.015,"end":16280.124,"text":"如果檢察官做了四份筆錄只把不利於被告的兩份去申請來看了結果呢法服的律師也剛好沒有看到也不知道事實上有四份筆錄所以他沒有去主張那個被告的辯護人他沒有去主張或是他主張了法官不採其他另外兩份要拿出來看的話"},{"start":16281.266,"end":16299.721,"text":"所以送給國民法官看的證據是職業法官裁的他可能知情也有可能是不知情的他裁定了請問只提供兩份這有沒有可能有篩選過了誤導了國民法官了你證據的提供這個是誤導國民法官的"},{"start":16306.383,"end":16328.704,"text":"然後誣導國民法官以後國民法官看到兩份而已嘛所以他就判了 他就誤判了然後誤判以後 能不能改判來 能不能改判我們國民法官法對於判決有特殊規定喔特別法有特殊規定 什麼規定來 你可以回答了行國民參與審判的案件"},{"start":16329.844,"end":16345.537,"text":"他判決以後有什麼特殊規定如果要上訴有什麼特別規定他會違反論理法則經驗法則之後才可以上訴好 你講對了所以前幾天有報紙說國民法官判決的二審都沒有人推翻 廢話因為這是法律強制規定的"},{"start":16349.713,"end":16362.56,"text":"法律強制規定除了國民法官違背經驗法則或論理法則顯然影響於判決者否則不可以改判"},{"start":16364.11,"end":16383.534,"text":"不可以改判這個91條 國民法官法91條跟92條意思是什麼 除非啦 國民法官喔說兇手是女的 結果你判男的有罪這一種才可以改判啦 否則全部不能改判所以我剛剛講啊 我從程序面來講從程序面來講 你們"},{"start":16388.71,"end":16398.097,"text":"職業法官在準備程序的時候呢在準備程序的時候不管他到底是不知情"},{"start":16399.281,"end":16418.837,"text":"也有可能是故意包庇啊或是故意的啊知情的他對於這個申請調查證據的時候他可能知道有四個筆錄但他只提供兩個他也有大部分我寧願相信他不知道有四份筆錄所以檢察官申請兩份的時候他就核定了然後呢在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":16424.11,"end":16442.86,"text":"在這種狀況裡面檢察官一定站在對自己有利未來審判的時候有利於他起訴的這個要件的這個立場去申請調查證據然後辯護律師我來囉辯護律師的問題是什麼法服你們付多少錢法服律師都通常一個案件收多少錢"},{"start":16444.02,"end":16455.574,"text":"法輔辯護律師一個案件收多少錢我們北法湖他可以複數的委任他可以最多可以拚到三個法輔律師好啦 多少錢啦一個人是七萬三千塊七萬三千元是七萬四千元明年 明年"},{"start":16460.94,"end":16488.996,"text":"10年以上的通通都要適用國民法官法大概會有274件我要講這個喔我講這個是知識體大現在的是重大的殺人死亡的這個案件喔可是明年是10年以上會有什麼案件你知道嗎比如說公務員違背職務收賄明年用在國民法官法的這個審理上面你知道貪賭案件卷宗"},{"start":16490.185,"end":16512.537,"text":"多非常多 比殺人 酒駕撞死人的卷宗還要多百倍也有可能 數十倍 百倍你們付給人家7萬元你相信更多是3萬 5萬而已 法服的律師他們會花多少時間他們能有多少時間收到3萬 5萬 7萬你不要講那個極端可以一次聘3個的"},{"start":16518.22,"end":16526.89,"text":"然後呢 仔細看 看得很清楚然後呢 他可以充分的為這個被告去辯護"},{"start":16528.311,"end":16548.852,"text":"蛤 所以在這種狀況裡面這個姿勢體大 很嚴重啊上幾審 你在申請調查證據的時候法官都不知道是真的不知道還是假的不知道我們說他是真的不知道了真的不知道這個證據有幾份然後就同意檢察官的申請"},{"start":16549.873,"end":16568.027,"text":"然後呢 影響了國民法官 然後造成了誤判誤判以後 一審以後 還不能夠二審 不能改判一定要遵照國民法官的審判 法律規定不能改判這樣這件事 感到 這樣感到都完全不需要檢討的啊 制度都做完畢都不用檢討啊"},{"start":16573.975,"end":16582.843,"text":"跟委員說明一下我們相信檢察官有客觀義務他對被告有利不利的他都要注意你現在不要說這種話"},{"start":16586.738,"end":16610.859,"text":"我現在在說的是這個制度你們不覺得這種制度其實應該可以要討論一下嗎你們現在在這裡就直接強力辯護 一路辯護到底你們整個國民法官法 你們的施行細則你們沒有訴訟法 國民法官的訴訟法你們全部定在施行細則 341條多如牛毛而且在裡面都用特別架構"},{"start":16611.9,"end":16629.299,"text":"然後在施行席則裡面然後直接說我排除其他法律的適用這個都已經很荒謬了所以我在講有沒有一種可能啦我幫你們講救濟的方法你不給人家救濟的方法你在制度面執行上真的有可能會有問題喔"},{"start":16633.544,"end":16642.553,"text":"那你需不需要思考另一種救濟比如說被駁回辯方申請調查的可以上訴到二審"},{"start":16644.707,"end":16666.918,"text":"對不對比如說你們的這個證據調查的準備程序的時候呢你還有原來的職業法官去決定要什麼東西給國民法官看什麼東西不要這個過程職業法官不會多多少少都形成新證嗎他絕對不會跟國民法官一樣是"},{"start":16668.599,"end":16693.473,"text":"空白的來聽的不會絕對不會你不覺得這種制度在準備程序的時候證據調查的時候有可能你需要配套式讓別組的法官來處理這個準備程序而不是受命要處理這個審理這個個案的法官直接來處理這個準備程序你不覺得"},{"start":16695.222,"end":16719.377,"text":"真真正正職業法官跟國民法官同時接觸到這個案子這樣子才是最好的嗎謝謝委員的指教我可以回答嗎就關於剛剛委員所指教的細則三百四十幾條細則有沒有排除相關的刑事訴訟特別規定事實上如果委員有仔細看國民法官第四條"},{"start":16720.137,"end":16730.245,"text":"他就寫本條有特別規定除本條有特別規定還是適用刑事訴訟或其他的法律規定所以在上次委員在質詢的時候有關88條你現在算概括性全部一句話全部都排除連訴訟程序連訴訟程序你們都訴訟程序都定在這個私刑細則裡面私刑細則都可以排除母法了不是"},{"start":16747.539,"end":16750.402,"text":"國民法 國民法 國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法"},{"start":16772.143,"end":16790.104,"text":"因為大家我想麻煩那個林委員我們今天時間已經超過很多了然後呢明天明天我們正好會繼續開嗎明天而且主要是司法院明天主要就是因為司法院然後我們明天再來對副秘書長也會到明天主要就是司法院"},{"start":16790.424,"end":16793.945,"text":"因為今天其實聽講很容易隨便亂講聽了林委員他針對國民法官制度的問題非常嚴重其實本行有觀察到所以我想很多的議題是不是就留待明天然後再來繼續拷問好不好"},{"start":16808.331,"end":16828.543,"text":"OK 那也請這個也請廳長那麼剛剛林委員提到的那些建議我們會把那個陳孝平委員會有提到相關問題需要討論的問題那今天都通通提供過來我們把它用書面給委員參考今天通通就都要提供過來了沒問題好 那我們這些問題明天可以繼續討論OK 好 好 謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝委員"},{"start":16832.881,"end":16850.511,"text":"好那接下來蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員不在好那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們詢答結束那委員質詢時候所要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會"},{"start":16851.471,"end":16865.64,"text":"好 那麼委員林楚英和傅坤祺所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面答覆好的 那麼本次會議就到此結束我們現在散會好 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列席官員有衛生福利部部長石崇良保護服務司司長張秀淵心理健康司司長陳柏喜法規會參事陳信誠"},{"start":1846.454,"end":1873.34,"text":"司法院少年級家事廳廳長鍾宗林法務部檢察司司長張曉雯主任檢察官陳貞慧內政部警政署副署長李文章防治組組長陳炯志刑事警察局警政監吳東文"},{"start":1876.55,"end":1904.543,"text":"教育部國民及學前教育署專門委員洪貞輝數位發展部法制處處長張學文資源管理司記政王文哲數位產業署檢任視察黃國元國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處處長蔡志儒"},{"start":1909.601,"end":1917.117,"text":"現在請提案委員說明提案要旨 每位委員兩分鐘那先請王育民委員說明"},{"start":1925.371,"end":1954.591,"text":"谢谢主席今天我们排定了家庭暴力防治法部分条文的修正草案主要是我们看到今年以来已经有几起这个妇女她拿到了家庭保护令但是还是被杀害的案件这样的情况让大家感到非常的痛心跟遗憾而且也凸显了我们现行的保护制度还有漏洞所以应该要修法"},{"start":1955.131,"end":1979.404,"text":"立法來加以完善首先我們看到在土城的這個被殺害的被害者他其實已經拿到了這個保護令那這個加害人呢檢察官有傳喚他但是無保請回沒有羈押結果就發生悲劇了他去找到了這一個被害人"},{"start":1980.004,"end":1995.314,"text":"然後加以殺害而且是當街殺害那這個凸顯了第一個我們現行的保護令制度沒有辦法即使去預警告知我們現在的被害人就是說加害人已經接近他他根本就不知道"},{"start":1995.914,"end":2020.863,"text":"所以我们现行的这样一个制度我们必须要让加害人知道加害人已经接近他因此我在率先提出的修法就希望在电子监控我们可以采取双向的制度这是参考西班牙的经验也就是当这个加害人接近被害人的时候被害人会及时收到警示他会知晓"},{"start":2021.303,"end":2046.857,"text":"可以進一步採取保護自己的措施或盡快遠離這個加害人所以這樣的一個制度我希望在立法裡面我們可以明確的加以立法然後進一步讓這些被害人未來都知道說加害人已經在接近他了他可以收到這樣的一個警示那第二個我們要處理的是現在檢察官針對家暴的這個"},{"start":2048.158,"end":2065.297,"text":"相關加害人羈押率過低的問題過去我們其實都可以看到很多的這個被害人他的主訴裡面其實都會發出警訊他自己知道說這個加害人在接近他的話他可能會有很嚴重的生命安全的問題"},{"start":2066.198,"end":2088.718,"text":"但是這樣的一個訊息在一層一層從警方送到檢察官的手裡的時候都是被忽略被漠視這一些被害人他心裡的恐懼跟他對於自己人身安全的疑慮那所以這個部分呢我是希望在立法的過程裡面也加入就是說檢察官他必須參採被害人主訴的這個意見"},{"start":2090.299,"end":2107.262,"text":"作为他是不是要行这个羁押的参考那这个就是我们非常重视被害人他自己主观的他的心理感受跟他对于加害人他会不会对他产生风险这个重要评估的依据那现行上一次土城的这个案子"},{"start":2107.642,"end":2137.262,"text":"很顯然檢察官以無保釋毀的方式就是他完全手上沒有去參採到這個被害人的資訊更何況他已經是累犯這個加害人已經是累犯他竟然沒有立刻羈押還是無保請回所以這樣的一個輕忽我覺得未來在立法上面我們也應該要去強化讓檢察官真的發揮是正義的力量該羈押的這一些加害人你應該要予以羈押現在的羈押比例呢"},{"start":2137.782,"end":2162.378,"text":"只有占7%其实真的是非常非常的低所以今天我特别提出这样的一个修法就是希望我们透过立法我们要来保护我们这一些家暴的这一些受害者我们要让他有免于恐惧的权利更重要的是我们要保护他要继续活下去不要因为这样的一个家暴而失去了生命以上谢谢"},{"start":2164.581,"end":2186.227,"text":"好 謝謝王育民委員說明 請邱振軍委員說明好 主席好 首先謝謝昭偉今天安排這個家庭包容地防治相關修正草案的審查那本席提出的修正條文是第5條 第31條 第35條及第38條"},{"start":2190.441,"end":2208.473,"text":"那當然是因為今年我們也看到非常多起的家暴案在保護令有效的期間內殺害受害者的這個部分我們真的感到非常非常的痛心那家暴案因為沒有做這個即時的偵測所以導致這個遺憾的發生"},{"start":2209.153,"end":2230.63,"text":"那我在這邊再提一個就是說根據法務部的資料111年到113年家庭暴力犯每年遭生壓的只有6.7%那裁定羈押者只有5.6那違反保護令遭生壓的其實佔全部的7%所以這個比例是非常非常的低"},{"start":2232.351,"end":2258.377,"text":"我們也考量到檢方他在接觸到這個羈押犯這個犯人的時候他能拿到的資料有限在很短的時間之內他要做出正確的判斷實在是有困難我們當然就是希望提出把家暴高風險評估機制提升到法律位階也可以參考我們西班牙等國家的做法"},{"start":2259.017,"end":2286.99,"text":"透過自動化的技術重新檢討改善家暴風險評估機制以協助檢方提升評估及生壓積壓的一個效率那我們希望這個事情盡快來完成然後越快完成我們就減少一分的遺憾在這邊就拜託我們這個衛福部各位委員大家支持 謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員說明接下來請蘇清泉委員說明"},{"start":2298.703,"end":2314.55,"text":"謝謝主席那本席所提出的是第31條的修正增加電子監控強化即時預警各位知道我們家暴案件層出不窮幾乎每天都在發生"},{"start":2316.331,"end":2342.368,"text":"因此而受害遇害的也一直在增加2022年到2024年之间平均每年有3309件的加班案而仅仅积压的才186人那个比例太低太低了所以核花保护令的速度效率又不足"},{"start":2344.915,"end":2363.295,"text":"保護令拿到手根本是廢紙一張所以源頭要怎麼管制所以電子監控台灣的電子業這麼發達電子監控加強預警系統是必須的我們看到性侵害的"},{"start":2365.31,"end":2389.54,"text":"肇事者他用電子腳銬或者是手銬他的再犯率會大幅下降到0.98%以下沒有佩戴的都是兩倍以上所以這個是成功的經驗因為這個技術必須要擴大所有的家暴也要納入監控人員的設備能力素質"},{"start":2391.061,"end":2419.501,"text":"有沒有充沛 設備有沒有充足看到的是一半的監控設備都在維修中所以如何加強這一塊我們立法院這邊一定會來全力支持那如何來通知被害人被害人要如何界定是不是只有當事或者他的親戚因為被殺害的連小意思都被殺了所以現在犯案的人精神有問題太多了所以我們衛福部"},{"start":2421.282,"end":2434.527,"text":"要加把勁所以這個今天是我提出這個31條修正的主要意旨謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員說明接下來請葉元之委員說明"},{"start":2443.634,"end":2453.816,"text":"謝謝主席最近家庭暴力的層出不窮根據一項數據顯示我們民國111年的時候家暴的案件通報是156,864件隔年112年通報了168,331件成長1萬多件到了去年113年又成長到179,107件也成長1萬多件"},{"start":2468.679,"end":2486.492,"text":"可見家庭暴力案件光是通報數看起來就成長不少那這僅僅只是通報而已甚至很可能存在很多黑數所以家庭暴力確實家庭暴力防治法要修法這個是刻不容緩的那我們有看到一些社會上面比較矚目的案件"},{"start":2487.892,"end":2511.781,"text":"有的受害人已經申請加報令了但是卻可以在暫時加報令還有效的期間遭到前夫的殺害這個看到我們簡直就是不能忍受所以我看到有很多委員提案就是應該要加強針對加害人的科技監控或者是其他的方式或配套措施我覺得政府機關都應該要"},{"start":2513.301,"end":2535.49,"text":"配合研議然後找出更加可以保護受害人的做法那另外因為家暴這個案件或者是家暴怎麼認定也需要做進一步的這個推廣跟教育所以本期這邊提案是針對教育的部分希望能夠在學校教育這一塊呢針對家暴可以做更多元的"},{"start":2536.11,"end":2561.534,"text":"教育的方式那我有看到教育部的回應是說教育部已經在課程方面有推動多元的方式而且非常重視這一塊那我們就可以讓他法治化好讓明文規定讓讓各個不管是機關也好學校也好更有明確的法令可以來追尋好以上謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員說明"},{"start":2563.339,"end":2575.537,"text":"好接下來請這個衛福部時部長說明那等一下也請司法院少年級家事廳的中廳長說明以及法務部的檢察司的張司長說明請就位謝謝"},{"start":2580.524,"end":2600.999,"text":"主席跟各位委員今天本部應邀出席今日審查葉元之等委員提出的家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案共8案那麼以下就僅就各委員的版本"},{"start":2602.22,"end":2618.184,"text":"表達本部的評估的建議第一個是有委員在修法版本裡頭建議對於目睹家庭暴力的定義將原本看見或直接聽聞來擴增事實上原本條文的所謂的"},{"start":2624.125,"end":2648.846,"text":"直接看見或直接聽聞已經包含了直接或間接知悉家庭暴力並非只侷限於親眼目睹所以這個是不是要再增列其他的感官覺察方式這個可以再討論那麼第二個是委員建議修法在家庭暴力高風險評估機制的部分事實上目前我們已經有"},{"start":2649.646,"end":2671.162,"text":"建立在辦理這些加報案件 通報案件的時候有危險評估的機制同時針對高風險的個案也建置了高危機個案網絡會議的作業平台來促進司法 警政 社政 衛政網絡之間的即時共享資訊進行風險的評估"},{"start":2673.664,"end":2698.998,"text":"那麼第三個是有委員建議要新增同住的兒少要併同核發保護令的部分那已經目前本法在第四條就已經有將目睹家暴的兒少都已經併入保護令的範疇所以這個部分是否要再修正文字我們尊重司法院的意見那第四個是有關於新增"},{"start":2699.978,"end":2707.307,"text":"加害 高風險加害人那麼強制要篩檢跟儲育的機制並且要定期的回報儲育計畫進度"},{"start":2710.024,"end":2734.775,"text":"與成效那麼並且將未規定參與處理計畫的樣態納入合法內容及違反保護令罪的構成要見部分那這個我們尊重這涉及到法官的裁判所以我們尊重司法院的意見那另外呢在擴大法院對出庭安全措施的範圍部分那麼涉及到司法院的權責"},{"start":2736.836,"end":2754.795,"text":"這個也請尊重司法院的意見那麼另外比較多的版本裡面會特別提到科控措施包含新增電子保護令的申請核發執行撤銷或者是科控的等等方式"},{"start":2756.317,"end":2773.335,"text":"因为这个涉及到这个被害人对于这个被害人的保护我们是非常支持但是这个以客控方式的话会涉及到被害人本身的人身自由跟隐私的议题那么另外他所适用的"},{"start":2775.035,"end":2800.841,"text":"這個保護令處分內容的款項上面呢那麼也有其這個適用上的限制所以對這樣的議題也還涉及到跨部門之間的這個言商包含司法院法務部警政署跟各縣市主管機關那麼我們是建議在跨單位的再細琢其執行的方式"},{"start":2801.821,"end":2816.801,"text":"那麼另外有委員也建議新增檢察官偵查家庭暴力罪及違反保護令罪實那麼須經被害人陳述其相處經驗與意見來作為申請羈押考量部分那麼"},{"start":2818.062,"end":2844.221,"text":"雖然這樣的修正內容可以增加被害人的參與讓這個程序更嚴謹及資訊完整但是同時也可能會增加在羈押程序當中那麼限縮原本預防性羈押的目的所以這個也請再評估那麼另外再也有委員建議新增這個司法機關對家庭暴力罪或違反保護令罪之被告"},{"start":2844.961,"end":2864.709,"text":"拒保折付限制居住或釋放時得付接受適當之科技監控那麼也跟剛剛前面的電子保護令那麼有類似的設計那我們也是建議這個跨單位然後對於這個被害人的隱私自由的部分也要同時考量那"},{"start":2865.589,"end":2894.056,"text":"至於這個有委員建議民定在各級學校要實施家暴防治課程那這個我們是競表尊重這個競表同意啦那尊重教育部的意見那另外委員建議加重違反保護令的刑度的部分那麼考量到家庭成員之間的關係的特殊而且這個保護令的樣態也很多元那麼是不是要提高這個法定的刑度那麼我們也"},{"start":2895.817,"end":2918.048,"text":"這個有沒有符合這個罪責相當原則我們也這個可以再評估那麼當然這一次的各個八個版本裡面最大的提出最多的大概就是用科技設備來監控那確實也有其他國家有類似的設計所以我們目前正在規劃"},{"start":2919.449,"end":2946.1,"text":"辦理這個各國制度跟實施現況的一些分級比較在瞭解這個其他國家在實施這個科技監控的優缺點跟限制之後再提出完善的這個配套的措施那麼一方面保護到這個被害人的最大權益那麼也避免侵害其自由隱私的情形之下那麼來執行所以再來執行所以這個"},{"start":2948.681,"end":2965.457,"text":"這個目前我們對於這些這個建議的修正條文提出這樣的意見再請各位委員指導 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請這個接下來請司法院 謝謝"},{"start":2977.161,"end":3002.095,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席審查各委員所提家庭暴力防治法修條文修正草案請代表市委員就下列重點向各位先進說明及報告第一關於加害人科技設備監控部分"},{"start":3003.635,"end":3032.066,"text":"對於這一部分來保護這個被害人人身安全的保障這樣的一個草案方向司法院原則是同意的那麼但是有下列幾點的思考就是說有關於加害人實施這個科技設備的監控他最主要是要增強這個遠離被害人或駐居所這樣的保護令那麼"},{"start":3032.726,"end":3049.038,"text":"用這個科控的方法來讓它有效同時提高對被害人 未成年人或家屬的一個人身安全的保障但是科控涉及下列兩個要思考的問題第一個就是所謂這個"},{"start":3051.28,"end":3077.989,"text":"人身自由隱私以及行動自由的基本權的限制那麼必須符合憲法23條的比例原則所以在核發這個電子這個科控的同時需要評估這個如何平衡這個所謂的人身自由隱私以及重大基本權那這是值得思考那第二個就是那如果我們"},{"start":3078.829,"end":3095.675,"text":"要在國外的立法例裡面有被害人要同時裝置有對應設備這個會涉及被害人的隱私權以及被害人的相關的一個身體自主跟秘密"},{"start":3096.215,"end":3122.155,"text":"等的一個隱私所以國外有一些立法例都是要經過被害人同意那這一部分本院認為要非常慎重來斟酌跟思考第二部分關於廚藝計畫的修法這個草案那麼以下有第一就在14條第一項有委員建議增訂依執行單位指定參與的時間地點"},{"start":3124.577,"end":3142.071,"text":"那这一个部分本院没有意见尊重贵院的决定第二个是新增强制这个高风险的暴力行为人进行强制性的鉴定处理这个利益良善本院原则也同意但会在实务涉及"},{"start":3142.851,"end":3164.317,"text":"這樣的鑑定是屬於醫療治療的行為的話它必須有相當的配置才能縮短這個法院審理保護令核發處理計畫的一個這個速度這個是需要評估的那第三個是有關法官核發了處理計畫保護令以後"},{"start":3165.037,"end":3189.833,"text":"在執行期間以及執行完畢後委員有提出草案認為說第一個要定期向法院以及主管機關做評估報告那這個本院競表贊同但是第二個就是執行完畢以後如果發現評估結果認為有這個再施暴高風險那麼這裡有一個草案要求說"},{"start":3190.673,"end":3211.084,"text":"送这个主管机关跟法院由法院来下这个命令来监督继续追踪辅导权责及相关的时效那这一部分本院有一个建议的意见也就是说一线型家暴法明定加害人相关的追踪辅导"},{"start":3211.684,"end":3227.86,"text":"也就是說在這個輔導完畢再繼續追蹤部分是由縣市主管機關應辦理這樣的目前也有相關的執法規在進行那第二個就是如果這樣的修法通過那本院在司法院的部分因為法院是要有"},{"start":3228.3,"end":3244.581,"text":"案件系屬才能做這樣的一個裁判命令所以必須要重新考量這樣的一個有關這樣的修法規定因為保護令合法完畢那麼我們是建議說像有這種情形是可以在執行期間"},{"start":3245.962,"end":3273.967,"text":"如果是主管機關申請的那主管機關可以來申請延長或變更保護令的內容包括處理計畫那如果是一般的被害人申請那我們保護單位可以協助第三有關未成年子女保護令部分這個委員提案固然都非常珍貴而且是在保護被害人但這裡涉及到兩部分如果說父母間申請保護令跟未成年子女也申請保護令這裡是建議說"},{"start":3274.827,"end":3297.353,"text":"合併審理合併裁定目前有15有很多都是這樣做但是有一部分是因為未成年子女涉及會面探視監督室必須有一定期間去做詳細訪視評估那這時候如果我們要等候合併裁定他會有一個重大缺點就是要及時的保護另外一個保護令要等候"},{"start":3297.833,"end":3323.578,"text":"那這個時候法官一般就是先下保護令去保護另外同這樣的案子那第二部分是說如果父母雙方為子女申請保護令那這個就是一般的侵權爭鬥的部分那為了保護未成年子女最好要分開審理分開裁定這個目前我們非常贊同而且實務我們在相關法官訓練也是進行這樣的部分那"},{"start":3324.818,"end":3345.575,"text":"最後一部分就是有關於這個法院應該保障被害人安全出庭跟安全返回住處那第一部分我們非常贊同而且我們也已經訂定有很多安全出庭的維護計畫這一部分是沒有問題的但是另外一部分因為涉及食物問題就是說法院如何確保"},{"start":3346.215,"end":3363.902,"text":"被害人在開完保護令頂以後安全返回他的住所庇護處那這一部分我們個案有協助但是通案要協助涉及到目前的保護令被害人常常因為有交報以後他就離開了縣住所比如說到別的縣市去那再來就是說這個我們實務操作上根據48條規定"},{"start":3368.524,"end":3395.436,"text":"警察機關就這個被害人的一個安全維護有相關的規定所以這一部分如果完全規定因法由法院來將被害人安全護送回到家裡這個恐怕實務上現在司法院的人力警衛安全人員以及相關的部分可能有所一下子自愛沒有辦法做到所以我們建議是說現行我們應該是加強這個跟"},{"start":3398.677,"end":3415.802,"text":"警政單位來合作如何確保高風險的回家的時候是不是連續一48條警察機關跟我們合作來護送以上那至於說在31條刑事的部分我們再請我們刑事廳的法官黃法官來做報告謝謝"},{"start":3418.741,"end":3442.786,"text":"委員好 我是司法院刑事廳黃湘瑩法官在此就刑事的部分跟委員們這邊做一個補充的說明部分首先就是我們要先強調是說由於這個部分我們家暴法這邊希望做科控的目的是在於是做一個預防性的處分目的是希望避免說家暴不要再發生其實主要是在刑事 如果說這邊到刑事的羈押替代處分這部分是以防逃為核心"},{"start":3443.246,"end":3469.743,"text":"所以我們這邊是認為說這邊的保護令的性質跟我們的GRT帶處分性質本質上就是不同那原則上如果說假使這個部分可以提前治那個加帕法14條在核發保護令的時候然後讓被害人可以視他的危險程度跟自身的需求可以去申請同步來申請這個科控的話那不僅在取得保護令這邊的法律保護之餘還可以使得對於相對人施以必要的監控那可以在這個憾事發生之前"},{"start":3470.123,"end":3486.114,"text":"就可以有效來介入提供一個實質的防護那另外就是在於是說假使如果說要弄到那個31條的部分的話這邊的前提會變成是說案件已經進入到偵查或是審理程序它已經是違反了那個家暴案件或是違反保護令已經發生了"},{"start":3486.454,"end":3510.916,"text":"那這時候法官這邊他在裁量的時候他必須要看有沒有什麼犯罪嫌疑重大還有具備羈押等相同那些原則那直到沒有羈押的必要他才會去做審慎評估這邊他是不是要可恐那其實這樣的話更不利於那個被害人在一剛開始希望能夠防範家暴的風險相信這邊被害人他希望拿到的不是只有一紙保護令而是在拿到保護令的同時能夠給他有一個防範能夠讓他"},{"start":3512.217,"end":3532.069,"text":"远离这个危险源的一个相对的一个科控机制所以站在我们的立场我们请向31条是比较属于补充性质假使如果在14条的部分没有做一个相对应的科控而案件发生了家暴事情到了31条的时候刑事庭法官在评估的时候发现这个部分有科控的必要我们当然可以在31条的部分搭配着做一个科控"},{"start":3532.549,"end":3549.143,"text":"的一個補充的手段那這個部分的話是就是做一個補充那另外這裡是說關於建制機關的部分如果配合目前民事保護領域是由警察機關來執行第一時間的監控跟回應的話相信這個部分會比較能夠提升他的這個保護的即時性"},{"start":3549.523,"end":3578.079,"text":"而且是最適當的一個限制機關如果就目前為止刑事的一個科控的監控中心的話我目前其實量其實是有限的是比較不夠而且我們是以防逃為機制我們是設置電子圍籬如果今天我們今天是一個做一個預防要保護被害人的話還需要被害人這邊做一個雙向搭配同意的一個配套的搭配措施以目前只有刑事這部分防逃為主的部分的話可能還不足以能夠防止加害人來接近被害人"},{"start":3578.579,"end":3580.783,"text":"那以上是這邊的一個簡單的補充 謝謝接下來請法務部檢察司張司長說明"},{"start":3600.982,"end":3615.681,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席審查委員葉元之等18人等女具家庭暴力防治法修正草案的等8案代表本部報告並被質詢"},{"start":3617.543,"end":3633.268,"text":"就重點報告如下為強化被害人的保護大院委員提案修正家庭暴力防治法相關條文其中關於家庭暴力防治法第31條法院甲官附條件命令部分大院委員均提出相關修正條文"},{"start":3634.068,"end":3663.448,"text":"增訂對於未予羈押的家庭暴力罪被告得命其接受適當之科技設備監控並參酌外國相關法制採行雙邊電子監控模式同時監控加害人行蹤及與被害人間相對位置並使被害人目睹家庭暴力而少或其特定家庭成員知悉加害人位置以加強保護被害人及其特定家庭成員本部對此加強保護被害人之立法目的"},{"start":3664.148,"end":3683.156,"text":"競表贊同然而採取上述的雙邊電子監控模式被害人或特定的家庭成員的行蹤也在監控中心的掌握之中對於個人隱私保護會有一定的影響建議仍應再行審酌是否充分尊重被害人意願情形之下為之"},{"start":3684.176,"end":3700.619,"text":"再者本部與司法院雖然共同建置有科技設備監控中心 然該制度是基於防止刑事被告逃亡以立訴追審判執行的目的而設依據為刑事訴訟法第116條之二第一項第四款之規定與民事保護令"},{"start":3701.48,"end":3727.304,"text":"或是家庭暴力法家庭暴力防治法所謂的雙邊電子監控是為保護被害人之目的顯然不同而且檢察署或檢察官是犯罪偵查的機關以及主體並非執行保護令的機關以及人員因此相關的執行監控及設備的回復建請由本法的主管機關為之以力強化對被害人的保護及加害人的處遇其餘部分進行參考本部的書面意見"},{"start":3728.144,"end":3751.995,"text":"本部对于妇幼儿少保护以及防治家庭暴力至为重视也感谢大院委员长期关注此议题并积极提出修法草案完备法制深化保护本部也将持续促请所属甲官注意家庭暴力防治法刑事程序章节的相关规定妥善运用甲官命令的制度并与相关部会协力合作绵密社会安全网络以上报告进行指教谢谢"},{"start":3760.974,"end":3771.544,"text":"謝謝 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本聯席會委員詢答時間6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘"},{"start":3776.669,"end":3790.338,"text":"10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請石部長請石部長"},{"start":3803.099,"end":3817.259,"text":"政務院長部長 您上任都提出很多計畫其中之一是利用部分負擔來強化這個分局醫療那因為我目前還沒看到細節可是我已經聽到有醫師那半開玩笑說他將來打算在這個台大醫院的附近開一個這個轉診門診"},{"start":3818.981,"end":3830.251,"text":"那只要負責開轉診單不需要照顧病人就可以有收入了當然這是一個開玩笑說法但是我要提醒部長部長就是說配套措施如果不夠完整這種事還是有可能在發生這種本末倒置的狀況所以我是不是請部長說明一下說你大概的這個癡情方向是什麼"},{"start":3838.558,"end":3856.383,"text":"跟委員說明其實分級醫療一直都是我們在推動這整個醫療制度或者是健保很重要的一個精神那麼分級醫療當然就是希望大病在大醫院小病就在我們的地區醫院或者是診所看就好了"},{"start":3856.883,"end":3880.743,"text":"那现在我们的统计发现到了其实在大医院里面特别是医学中心里面看了很多都是轻症者都是稳定的所以我们第一步已经在过去推动了几年让这个医学中心去成立它的转诊体系像台大它有心悦计划还有验行计划等等那所以我们第一步会先"},{"start":3881.704,"end":3904.356,"text":"由醫學中心的門診的部分先去安排好先從門診去安排好這個轉診的網絡我們長期也有專業互動啦所以你的大病看開院小病看小病小病診自己照顧這個分級醫療核心這個我們都同意啦所以你剛剛點出重點因為前署長李博張署長他也提到了為什麼民眾要直接去大醫院看民醫呢"},{"start":3904.676,"end":3920.67,"text":"因為他覺得這個健保會富嘛多的檢查也大概不要錢然後藥也不算貴嘛就是便宜所以造成整個這個超載那部長我接下來請替病友團體向您請命有些病他雖然不屬於重大疾病重大傷病"},{"start":3921.01,"end":3940.258,"text":"但基層診所跟小醫院他未必能夠好好照顧我以肝險朋友病友為例他們需要的是當然就是現代的符合時尚的是一個符合時代潮流是一個生物製劑當然還有那個光照的治療但是這些很多都只有大比較大的醫院才有能力提供我相信這個"},{"start":3941.679,"end":3961.653,"text":"署長很清楚但是部長很清楚但是健保給付對於這個生物資金非常的嚴苛框框架架還綁著這個光照的這個時間那我要跟跟部長講的是說有些病友跟我們說因為他不在那個自費範圍內因為我們相對嚴格所以部長我第一個先跟你談很多的過去的比較重大一些疾病的這個治療我們過去是因為財務比較鬆綁的但是未來因為這個"},{"start":3964.815,"end":3976.47,"text":"不可能往回頭走所以只能大概繼續回到一個比較指引科學指引的方向走那很多病友跟我說他不得不去因為是自費的他不得不去所謂的執政黨講的境外敵對勢力去買藥來用在當地或是買藥用"},{"start":3980.835,"end":3998.064,"text":"因為自費價格兩岸相差太大了所以有一群他真的是這個醫療環境迫使他們去大醫院的病人那他們的部分負擔也許這個部長將來要有其他的機制我知道分級醫療的概念但是有一些人我必須再繼續講就是說他們的回診頻率有時候會根據這個診斷階段"},{"start":4001.426,"end":4018.067,"text":"治療階段或追蹤期有不一樣那他們會擔心有時候要兩三週就回診一次那他們的轉診單是要一直去取嗎等等的因為這個細節還沒有看到所以我希望部長是不是在這個方向能夠稍微有細日一點的設計方法"},{"start":4018.467,"end":4044.852,"text":"跟委員報我們在未來這個要推動這個時候一定會考量到療程的延續性有些他是一個完整的療程所以不需要在療程當中不斷的拿轉診單因為你一聽就會理解但是我要再跟一群小數病人來請命你看看右邊這個設備這個是肝血病人的光照設施你覺得要一個六歲的小朋友一個人待在裡面做治療你覺得難度高嗎"},{"start":4046.316,"end":4061.342,"text":"這個當然很高啊因為他的控制性比較差我要告訴你6到12歲的小朋友目前還是要經過有感染病人經過光照治療當然還之前還要服用這個口服的免疫療法嘛那負重都很大而且要做這個治療"},{"start":4062.902,"end":4087.047,"text":"現在還是這麼嚴格我三年前坐在那邊小兒科病人幫病人請病但是你的專家都不允許那這個phototherapy我要講的一星期可能要兩三次第一個他們要請假去治療先不要說爸爸媽媽當然要陪著請假第二個他們有時候到下課才去治療下課治療只剩下診所或小醫院那未必有這樣的這個這個設施所以是不是小朋友的部分你要有特別的這個考量"},{"start":4088.587,"end":4108.03,"text":"但是沒有 現在還是一樣一樣嚴格我們過去是先放鬆了六歲以下六歲以下我們先放鬆異位性皮膚炎 肝腺病人還沒有放鬆那麼六歲到十二歲這邊如果有這個我們從 目前沒有徵詢一些臨床的意見那我希望你不但是要留住"},{"start":4108.49,"end":4120.948,"text":"花了200多要留住小兒科醫師但是兒科的病人是不是可以請你盤點一下他們有任何是跟平常成人比照但事實上有困難的他們對他們來說應該有不一樣的照顧方式部長您同意嗎同意 同意 同意兒童一定會有特別的處理"},{"start":4123.732,"end":4152.183,"text":"但是我看到沒有我就清楚熟悉有很多很多的限制那我們今天談那個家庭暴力防止我想告訴部長這些負責接觸弱勢的社工們其實自己也常常處在脆弱之中那衛福部2018年有設了一個社福人員勞動申訴及溝通平台那根據這個辦理流程申訴要60天內要回復這個辦理情形但社工界人士指出多數案件都超過這個時效超過期限甚至超過300天超過一年"},{"start":4153.143,"end":4173.801,"text":"都還沒有這個結果所以社工們質疑中央是不是為監督管理的責任部長您知道這件事嗎您知道這件事嗎這個我看到的數字其實沒有多數都要這麼久但是我相信有些案件因為要調查的關係雖然這個是由勞動部來管理但是畢竟平台是設在衛福部你又是社工室的大家長"},{"start":4174.662,"end":4185.341,"text":"那是不是就是說對於這個他們要求工會他們的工會要求說希望能夠就超過期了就強制開了一個專家會議來趕快處理您同意這樣的意見跟說法嗎"},{"start":4186.257,"end":4209.214,"text":"好我們來朝這個方向演繹一下就是如果超過一定的時間的話就強制召開因為這個原來的規定沒有辦法做到讓他接觸這個脆弱病人這群社工也能夠被照顧那才有能力去照顧這群脆弱的病人我們絕對是挺社工絕對全力挺社工的謝謝部長主席已經站起來了謝謝謝謝陳肖之委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":4225.105,"end":4251.706,"text":"主席麻煩我們的衛福部跟法務部請部長跟法務部代表林委員早部長早家暴的事件不斷發生大家社會都很高度關注尤其事實上是被害人一定是我們要保護的對象可是先來問一些執行的狀況因為執行狀況才能夠如果執行不好的話大家就是沒有辦法解決問題第一個問題想來問的就是"},{"start":4254.908,"end":4279.126,"text":"家暴家害人處遇計畫早已經入法了那違反處遇要求就違反我們的保護令可能被移送可是目前各界都一直提到執行效果不佳所以先想黃副部這邊是不是已經有跟司法院演繹如何提高我們的處遇計畫的裁定率有嗎 好 不"},{"start":4280.302,"end":4297.772,"text":"因為這個處理計畫是屬於民事保護令的範圍 是不是由司法院這邊來做說明請司法院代表委員好"},{"start":4300.995,"end":4327.823,"text":"有關於這個處於計劃如何促進各法院在受理期間我先就問你說你的裁定率有提高嗎因為這個很重要因為加害人的處於真的事實上是蠻重要的我說明一下如果依照我們的統計數據經過促進以後在今年一到九月一到九月的裁定率說明一下"},{"start":4334.994,"end":4335.857,"text":"好 我看这儿"},{"start":4336.738,"end":4359.449,"text":"那個我們通保令通保令合法這個除疫計劃全國總平均28.01是比113年23.71有提高那證明1到8月我們跟衛福部的一些研究方案還有我們內部的促進方案是稍微有一些增加但這個應該還要再努力好"},{"start":4360.009,"end":4378.659,"text":"那就要再努力那麻煩司法院和法務部請回那我要講問衛福部就是說今天我們從被害人那邊大概在服務被害人團體都一直知道說他們根本就不知道原來有可以向法院申請這一項說要求加害人藥來進行儲育計畫"},{"start":4381.46,"end":4396.748,"text":"所以我覺得這部分部長可不可以說明一下雖然沒有錯裁定事實上是我們司法院這邊可是重點事實上是家暴法還是在衛福部這邊那怎麼會是被害人不知道他自己的這樣的一個權益所在"},{"start":4398.049,"end":4412.422,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們在這個11月11月3號我們特別召開一個會議去討論怎麼樣呢這個去從幾個方面一個是縮短這個保護令的核發的比例或時效"},{"start":4413.427,"end":4431.337,"text":"那一方面也要加強被害人如何知道保護自己所以這些都是要在我們得知到有家暴通報的時候我們的社工人員介入的時候或者是第一線人員介入的時候需要提供這些資訊給被害人"},{"start":4434.778,"end":4457.148,"text":"通報人讓他知道所以我們在強化幾個一個是他如何收集足夠的證據他需要哪些證據能夠協助檢察官或者是法官去判定最後的這個家暴令的核發縮短他的時效第二個是怎麼樣自我保護他的意識上他怎麼在這段期間內去強化"},{"start":4458.909,"end":4483.969,"text":"食物現場反應加害人大概都會逃避儲育否認跟缺乏意願來解決問題那如何協助做加害人儲育的機構來解決這個問題就是說他們大家都是逃避不願意去被儲育所以不知道你們這邊有沒有一些對應的措施強化加害人是 去接受儲育"},{"start":4486.525,"end":4500.641,"text":"我們目前是跟委員說明這個加含儲育它是一個保護令那在55條有相關的一些聯繫機制再不行他不參加或參加時數不足或者是他有一些違反措施在61條有違反保護令"},{"start":4502.603,"end":4522.249,"text":"不過市長也知道因為很多被害人的經濟還是來自加害人現在還是給付所以部分加害人會以工作影響為由要求政府要給予貼補交通或者事實上是工時的損失這聽起來是不合理的要求可以要求在執行機構跟加害人來做如何來做一些協調嗎這邊"},{"start":4524.87,"end":4542.703,"text":"目前在執行處遇的一些機構他們都很貼心它有不同時段例如說在上班時間或非上班時間都有那另外處遇的費用目前也是由政府來支應所以基本上這個可能是一個理由但是我覺得它就是一個藉口好"},{"start":4544.284,"end":4564.609,"text":"部長保護被害人絕對是不用懷疑的但被害人的各種權益有沒有被完整考量這才是重點不是我們在上面定一條法律大家就會乖乖配合就以為真的保護到被害人對被害人影響所以請問部長這次有關要做科技監控"},{"start":4565.549,"end":4580.938,"text":"部長有沒有做到完整評估不要讓被害人陷入更多的恐懼因為雙邊電子監控對被害人影響這麼大本來就應該做性別影響評估新法在性別主流化下也都有這一塊那這部分有可能要去做嗎"},{"start":4582.598,"end":4603.787,"text":"目前跟委員說明確實如何去強化保護被害人我們大家都在朝這個方向努力那麼至於說用科技設備來協助也有一些國家的經驗所以我們目前正在收集這方面我有收到團體給我們的很大的意見是說被害人"},{"start":4605.107,"end":4625.655,"text":"他很擔憂甚至他的孩子雖然說感覺雙病可是他相對他也被監控所以有沒有評估這樣會不會更加激怒加害人引發更嚴重的報復如果被害人忘了帶沒看或者是剛好沒看訊號有時候加害人靠近的地方一旦出了事情會不會又來譴責被害人"},{"start":4628.62,"end":4651.506,"text":"所以委員的顧慮我們都覺得很重要而且他們也提出來台灣空間距離很短如果是同鄉同村同社區電子監控到底要怎麼執行會不會一直在那裡狂想警報讓他們自己在工作上甚至在跟人家會面的時候聚會的時候受到很大的影響這個都必須考慮"},{"start":4653.813,"end":4672.324,"text":"所以最關鍵的是還是要深刻分析不是倉促上路所以按照西班牙他們當然也是目前做起來是最好可是他們有一些適用範圍跟風險分級評估你們有找尋到這樣相關資料知道說未來我們國內到底要如果真的要做要怎麼做嗎"},{"start":4673.044,"end":4693.526,"text":"我们会纳入这个收集的对象我们现在正在收集各国的做法上还有也要提醒因为我刚刚讲过北海的经济是有些是来自于加害人的那如果怎么去避免监控导致加害人失去工作就最后受害的还是谁还是孩子跟北海人"},{"start":4694.774,"end":4704.842,"text":"這個要一併是不是要考量另外一個就是說目前科技的設備量能跟監控中心的設置的規劃如果要做你們的想像是什麼"},{"start":4706.363,"end":4728.884,"text":"我們當然想像上是這個不是只有監控它後面要有對應的措施那以我們現在衛福部的能力那個科技是小事是後面的怎麼樣去介入那麼這個恐怕不是只有衛福部能夠做沒有辦法做到這樣我們還是要考量到不過我就是要提醒"},{"start":4729.825,"end":4748.143,"text":"如果真的要做被害人預警機制如何設計還有什麼樣子觸發警示他警示後警方的介入程序這很多都要考量不是一個法定下去之後搞不好傷害到的事實上是真正可能傷害到是被害人以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林月琴委員發言請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":4761.555,"end":4789.566,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請部長請石部長部長好賴總統在16號的時候宣布說未來我們衛福部要成立新的兒家屬但我看了一大堆新聞新聞名稱現在是非常紛亂有的前面是兒童有的前面是兒少然後有的是家庭照顧屬有的是家庭支持屬你可以在這邊跟大家講"},{"start":4790.866,"end":4815.482,"text":"證明一下到底未來還會叫什麼名字跟委員報告因為我們現在正式的這要涉及到那個組織法的修編所以我們還沒有正式送出到行政院的組織法的那個草案還沒有那當然目標的族群就是兒童但是兒童在醫學的定義18歲以下是兒童但是醫學是這樣"},{"start":4817.083,"end":4843.221,"text":"但是按照我们的儿少法他分儿童跟少年所以12岁做切割点所以名词上到底是要用我们一般的这个通念还是法律的概念这个到时候我们都会在所以你的意思是说你现在只知道他叫儿家属对对象是OK的对象很清楚就是儿童18岁到18岁医学上的定义到18岁那后面有吗几家庭"},{"start":4844.001,"end":4859.607,"text":"有家庭因為這個家庭的支持在兒童發展的過程當中家庭的支持是很重要所以你後面會叫家庭還是家庭支持家庭支持所以是兒童級家庭支持署兒童級家庭支持署或兒少級家庭支持署你這個編制還沒送出去還沒有所以你被賴總統突襲了"},{"start":4863.269,"end":4883.899,"text":"沒有 這不會這個是總統要回應到我們的民間民團大家的倡議以及整個在國家希望工程裡面希望對於兒童有更好的照顧再來我想問一下你的預算因為之前我們都"},{"start":4885.02,"end":4902.507,"text":"耳熟能詳的啦你說要用4年編135億來做兒童健康的照顧那這個是兒童這個部分嘛你家庭的部分你是要再另外編列預算嗎這個我們目前規劃上是把這個跟兒童相關的"},{"start":4903.527,"end":4928.384,"text":"从他的这个托育那些也都是啊所以是把它整合在跟儿童相关的所以包含这个从胎儿时期的这个从胎儿时期那你有包括孕妇吗我们未来的话不是从这个你一直讲配胎对对对所以你要把然后到他的发展到托育就是出生之后的托育所以你的意思是说你会把部分其他属的业务"},{"start":4931.165,"end":4944.829,"text":"對 會調整會把現在本來在社家屬社會及家庭屬裡面有關於兒童服務役托育的部分我們會把它移到這個兒家屬托育 對那另外也會把把那個生產不是生產就是這個兒童的發展"},{"start":4952.832,"end":4972.375,"text":"早期疗愈那一块早疗的部分也会移进来那你的胚胎是什么意思因为我看到胚胎我会联想到孕产部所以孕产的那一块要不要移动再进来我们会再讨论这个就是它从胚胎开始的所以我们会一并去"},{"start":4973.476,"end":4990.563,"text":"去討論到底有沒有要移進來因為會涉及到我們好多個現行的單位的他的業務的移動那你為什麼要從胚胎開始講你為什麼不從出生開始講胚胎就是生命的開始我們現在"},{"start":4993.115,"end":5009.826,"text":"希望保護的就是應該照顧的是從胚胎的時候就開始有一些政策因為這一個單位會包含到這個兒童的這個健康政策的研習所以我才問你有沒有包括孕產婦因為胚胎在孕產婦的身體裡面"},{"start":5011.358,"end":5040.45,"text":"它可能还包含一些筛检的有一些筛检的政策你是说在产检的时候的筛检对对对产检有一些筛检你要把它移到儿家属这里来它是不一定我们是有一个叫做政策就是儿童的健康政策的规划单位但是执行的时候会看到它的业务的整合性你的筛检是不是出生以后的筛检你应该不是只产检政策规划就是整个健康政策的规划要在这里面"},{"start":5041.206,"end":5066.741,"text":"好 虽然听的不是很理解但是等到你全部都公布之后还有第二个问题就是说以往比如说我自己去考察一个机构一个学校或是一个托婴一个托育它有可能附属在学校下面有可能附属在某一个机关下面那长久大家就会觉得很奇怪你这个家这个属叫儿家属儿童照顾"},{"start":5067.441,"end":5095.617,"text":"可是一般家長有時候都會覺得奇怪為什麼托育0到2歲是衛福部管2到6歲就變教育部負責那比如說發生了一個暴力事件或者是不當對待我們還要去區分它發生的場域在哪裡那再去找主責的機構其實這個就是長久以來的問題我不知道把兒家屬合併然後升級成一個三級的機構是不是可以解決以前很多跨部會的問題"},{"start":5097.527,"end":5115.955,"text":"我想儿童的照顾本来或者是儿童的健康他的权益他涉及到跨部会他不会是只有通通在卫福部里头所以他确实是会涉及到跨部会的协调但是我们把他的这个卫福部的窗口"},{"start":5117.316,"end":5132.393,"text":"先統一起來了在兒家署裡面然後再透過這個兒家署做跨部會之間的協調那你的編制大概會有多少人還要再細算現在目前在做業務調整之後就會細算你覺得至少你需要多少人"},{"start":5134.73,"end":5163.528,"text":"这个在数的规模上有一定的组跟人数的这个规模一定会有那外界有一个误解现在世界各国尤其是面临少子化国安危机的国家他们都纷纷成立类似你这样子名称的单位不管是哪一个级别但是大部分级别都比我们高所以很多人误会了觉得你这个是跟少子女化有相关的但是你是其实就是照顾儿童"},{"start":5164.028,"end":5183.631,"text":"但你看我們現在的出生率是越來越慘今年可能11萬嘛那你的服務案量是會越來越少那難道你不會覺得擔心嗎你現在開了一個新的編制可是你未來服務的人是越來越少而你沒有一起加入成立做這個少子女化的相關政策"},{"start":5185.353,"end":5205.035,"text":"在少子女化這個政策的這個應對方案的部分另外在行政院層級他也有這個相對應的計畫的行動計畫在推動那個就是很多跨部會的那我們這個在衛福部裡面主要是主責在兒童已經出生之後"},{"start":5205.955,"end":5227.491,"text":"好 我知道 沒關係因為主席站起來了我是在幫你講話因為我也希望你以後業務是越來越繁榮嘛誰會希望你的業務量是越來越萎縮所以在這邊是想具體建議你如果遇到院長或者是總統你要不要建立他成立因為他現在總統府有三個委員會要不要成立第四個委員會是少子女化的對策委員會"},{"start":5228.271,"end":5251.187,"text":"或者是一個國發會拉出來二級機關少子女化以及人口對策委員會你覺得你贊不贊成因為聽起來你就是一個兒童的窗口窗口但假使要解決少子女化一個專責單位啦就是兒童照護的專責單位他整合了我們目前善待的業務因為主席站起來了我只是希望部長可不可以呼應你會不會希望"},{"start":5252.108,"end":5271.625,"text":"院長或總統也可以希望有更高級別的跨部會整合不然你的業務量怎麼辦對我想這個少子女化這個問題現在在行政院層級就已經有在相對應的計畫有一個少子女的對策現在有啊但是沒有用啊它越來越低耶"},{"start":5272.964,"end":5287.999,"text":"他每一年越来越低耶所以你的意思是说只需要精进这个原本的计划就可以扩展你服务的按量了目前已经有一些机制继续去强化他你觉得会有效"},{"start":5289.7,"end":5316.107,"text":"这个不断的在调整那个对策上不断的在调整所以你觉得靠现在的计划就够了未来还会有一个计划会提出来现在正在所以你的意思是说你不认为需要成立更高级别了以目前我们所成立的这个是儿童的这个照护那还有个专责的单位来成立那我们是积极的朝这个方向来设立的"},{"start":5317.441,"end":5324.892,"text":"就是一個這個兒童及家庭支持署我們是確定是朝這個方向來設好謝謝你好謝謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":5341.248,"end":5365.161,"text":"謝主席 麻煩有請衛福部施部長法務部檢察司張司長以及司法院邵家庭鍾廷長黃議員好三位好 時間的關係不亦問候首先感謝趙偉在今天排審的家庭暴力防治法非常重要的議題"},{"start":5366.314,"end":5391.769,"text":"我想時間的關係我很快帶大家回顧一下我們今天為什麼聚集在這裡處理這個議題今年七月初的時候有一位家暴的男性違反保護令的措施當街殺死了妻子跟他的妻妹這個悲劇發生了以後我們的衛福部馬上大動作說要跨部會檢討五大作為來補破網"},{"start":5394.215,"end":5410.825,"text":"在立法院要求衛福部的報告當中衛福部說要落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護司法院說要持續精進完善強化跨網絡的合作這些都是在今年7月發生的事情"},{"start":5412.111,"end":5438.617,"text":"社會發生了悲劇衛福部趕快動起來立法院也排了章案報告大家都說要檢討問題是我們看到的是什麼我們看到的是到7月底再度發生家暴殺人我上一次站在這邊質詢的時候是當再度發生的時候我關心的事情是"},{"start":5440.395,"end":5467.025,"text":"從衛福部到司法院到法務部大家口口聲聲所說的有精進的措施有精進的作為到底落實的情況是怎麼樣結果一檢驗不堪檢驗各機關各個階段一再漏接沒有落實應該有的作為家防中心協助身心保護令的時候沒有附上危險評估表"},{"start":5468.166,"end":5488.758,"text":"法官沒有收到資料也沒有請各個機關協助補件要被害人自行提供暫時保護令收案核發的原則是一個月最長不可以超過兩個月但本案是明確的超過了兩個月這個是我上次站在這邊質詢的時候我們質詢的重點"},{"start":5491.53,"end":5519.515,"text":"我們看到家庭暴力通報的案件一路攀升看這個數字到2024年已經接近18萬件在2016年開始的時候還不到12萬件到2024年的時候已經將近18萬件我們不禁要去思考我們到底漏接了多少人有多少人還在陰暗的角落哭泣"},{"start":5521.535,"end":5549.424,"text":"發生死亡被殺死被打死的案件要上媒體版面的恐怕只是在這些家暴案件當中冰山的一角對每一個被害人這個國家有無可迴避的責任因此我那時候問前任的部長前任的部長說他很關心他支持引進電子監控機制"},{"start":5551.38,"end":5566.472,"text":"他支持對高風險施暴者進行科技監管為了補強社會安全網他承諾要召集跨部會議他要在半年之內提出家庭暴力防治法的修正草案"},{"start":5567.833,"end":5586.165,"text":"但我今天看到召委排審這個案子我注意到兩件事情第一個到目前為止我們還沒有院版的修正草案我想要請教一下部長是有打算要提還是再給你們兩個月還是根本就沒打算要提"},{"start":5588.07,"end":5615.06,"text":"我們要在這個現在已經剛剛在報告裡面有提到我們正在收集執行的細節未來在修法通過的時候我們會來提什麼時候提我們要點時間來需要多少時間演繹上次我問部長 部長說半年那是八月的時候講的嘛新的部長要多久半年從現在開始算半年嗎那會不會又換了一個部長新的部長又要半年"},{"start":5616.516,"end":5640.541,"text":"這沒完沒了啊8月的時候告訴我要半年現在你又說從現在開始算再半年被害人要等到什麼時候被害人要等到什麼時候第二個我注意到的事情是你們對於電子監控機制衛福部似乎是持保留的態度是嗎"},{"start":5641.972,"end":5670.255,"text":"對 因為我們還要再把這個執行的細節弄清楚還要再研議嗎 對所以還需要半年嗎避免傷害到這個被害人我不知道其他衛防委員會的委員會不會想要等我也不知道還有多少潛在的被害人還有多少時間可以等我更不知道在這段等待的時間當中還有多少的悲劇要釀成我希望衛福部"},{"start":5671.283,"end":5687.92,"text":"把這些問題放在心裡面當你們在研議的時候當邱太元8月跟我說半年之內要提出草案的時候現在11月說要再半年說要再研議"},{"start":5689.955,"end":5717.839,"text":"事實上在外國相關的立法例當中立法院我們自己做了研究報告早就清楚的揭示西班牙是在2004年12月的時候就頒布有關於防止性別暴力的全面性保護措施把家庭暴力納入科技設備的監控範圍當中這樣子的立法例在歐洲非常多的國家紛紛仿效"},{"start":5719.306,"end":5738.22,"text":"法國在2019年12月的時候頒布關於打擊家庭暴力行動法律可以命受監控人佩戴器具追蹤定位位置的防接觸手環他們把它簡稱為BAR戴上那個BAR如果進入那個監控的範圍當中被害人"},{"start":5739.517,"end":5767.813,"text":"他手上的接收器會發出警報嗶嗶嗶 嗶嗶嗶他會直接發出警報警告他說加害人已經進入了他被禁止的範圍當中這是2019年在做的2019年法國頒布了這項法律在後來的實踐上面對於學術研究單位對於法國的國會都非常密切的注意依照法國他們自己的平權部還有婦女權益保護部"},{"start":5769.775,"end":5792.206,"text":"他們自己委託研究機構的統計這部法律頒行了以後到2023年的年底保護超過了1800位1800位潛在的被害人因為這個BAR的措施有這麼多人受到保護法國的議員在法國國會當中針對這個事情提出質詢"},{"start":5796.79,"end":5822.498,"text":"對於他們實際上面落實的狀況也清楚的發現了他顯著的效果你們說要關心加害人的隱私人身的自由這個我都同意但是兩個法益之間的balance我要提醒衛福部的是在其他國家當中藉由各式各樣要件的設定"},{"start":5823.658,"end":5847.089,"text":"以及實際上面的狀態你未必要讓他看到他在哪裡他只有個接收器我是被害人我看不到加害人在什麼地方隱私上面的考慮大幅降低但有一件事情應該讓被害人知道加害人進入了禁制令禁止的範圍當中提醒他因為不可能有那麼多人力一天到晚"},{"start":5847.984,"end":5870.84,"text":"派我們家報中心的人員或是派警察陪在被害人旁邊這是不可能的事用科技來解決問題你最起碼進入了那個範圍當中就發出警報讓他知道說現在可能有危險要發生了我知道啦就是在催促你們你們的說法應該都一樣"},{"start":5872.202,"end":5896.552,"text":"還是要再研議了我也不曉得衛防委員會的委員是不是會願意等但是我只是要提醒衛福部一件事情永遠不要忘記在你們等待的這段時間當中有多少人的生命安全正遭受威脅這是所有掌握權力的人不管是行政部門還是立法部門都要時時刻刻放在心裡面的事好 謝謝"},{"start":5897.912,"end":5926.927,"text":"謝謝委員我們在研議的過程當中會持續強化其他的措施來保護這個被害人謝謝黃國昌委員發言接下來請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請衛福部長石部長還有司法院跟法務部謝謝請石部長跟司法院法務部代表"},{"start":5927.443,"end":5952.971,"text":"三位好三位早安我們就今天當然是要談修法然後我不確定今天是不是要逐條也是不是要送出委員會那剛剛黃國昌委員所舉的案例法國這個案例我相信非常多認證委員辦公室應該都知道可是在這個案例之外我認為我們要談另外一個就是相關的配套措施所以想要跟各位討論"},{"start":5954.211,"end":5977.702,"text":"當然是因為很多的家暴殺妻案或者是各式各樣的家暴案導致於大家持續關心但是我認為如果配套不來談那我們還會遇到什麼困境尤其是有了科技化的工具之後如果沒有相關的配套其實只會給我們第一線的行政同仁還有社工同仁造成更多的困擾可不可以真的保護到所謂的被害人我們一起來看一看"},{"start":5978.542,"end":5999.332,"text":"我想要問一下其實上一次在7月16的時候我們司法委員會已經排過一次審查也排過一次討論那當時我就提出一些問題喔問題包含以下幾個那你們之前包含第一個你們說你們有衛福部這邊有一個家庭暴力及性侵害防治推動小組每三個月會開一次跨部會會議那你們說7月這個案子爆發之後呢你們會再開會那據說"},{"start":6001.813,"end":6026.311,"text":"據我根據我知道下一次開會會是12月22號所以你們在7月的會議有五個結論相關五個結論就是強化第一線專業人的教育訓練研擬跨峽通報應變機制盤點形式程序銜接處理雙向加害跟被害案件的新指引還有完整心理輔導跟支持這是7月的結論我想問一下在相關結論推動到目前為止有沒有什麼一些比較新的進度可以跟國人報告"},{"start":6027.099,"end":6039.256,"text":"第一個我們有在這個召集過跨部會的會議包含這個警政司法等等大家再來討論過那麼除了前面這五個我們還強化了這個對於這個"},{"start":6043.982,"end":6069.647,"text":"通報人被害人的這個提供的訊息的完整度包含提升他如何去收集到更多的證據來提高他後面的能夠取得這個保護令的成功的機會讓他這個審理的速度法院審理的速度也能夠縮短加快這是我們當說第一個第二個會更廣泛的去宣導使用這個110的視訊"},{"start":6072.488,"end":6100.658,"text":"這個APP那個可以有即時性在有危機發生的時候可以即時性的通知這個警察機關那麼明確的了解這個被害人的確定的位置來即時的救援這個也我們也討論過去強化這個部分那另外呢也要製造這個指引這個有一些教材的開發來協助這個被害人"},{"start":6101.578,"end":6122.924,"text":"讓他知道察覺危機的發生進而能夠預防性的保護到自己這個也會做到另外在法務部或者司法院的部分我們也去強化這個橫向之間這個核定保護令的時候如何讓這個在地的警察機關能夠"},{"start":6124.244,"end":6139.965,"text":"快速的得到這個訊息對 因為在地的第一線的警務同仁其實是會第一線直接保護我們的被害人好 沒有錯確實這些配套做完之後可能都還是會有相關案件不斷產生這本來就是社會的樣態跟常態"},{"start":6141.147,"end":6155.348,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員有一個線性圖說通報案件逐年增加可是當我們辦公室去研究這個通報案件逐年增加其實有一件事情是因為衛福部在這幾年做了一個很重要的事情就是我們有社區防暴宣講時"},{"start":6156.389,"end":6178.164,"text":"所以以前可能很多被害人不知道原來這叫做家暴原來我可以通報原來國家可以保護我所以在社區防暴師的致力推動之下有越來越多的人意識到一我可以通報求救原來國家可以保護我二原來這不是只有我自己的事情三原來我被家暴了"},{"start":6178.704,"end":6207.578,"text":"所以我看到我們的通報數據逐年增加我認為這個是要以正視聽的並不是說各式各樣的樣態它的增加就必然是那個社會案件的變多所以如果我們仔細再去分析相關上升的數字我們辦公室的分析是根據你們當時在7月的時候保護司司長告訴我們說根據這個通報我們會做分級跟分流透過台灣親密關係暴力危險評估表"},{"start":6208.118,"end":6227.947,"text":"去做分流分出風險高低所以裡面大概會有將近10%是所謂高風險而這些高風險的家庭或者是相關被害人我們會立刻進場做積極的協助這是要勞煩現場的社工再來中低風險大概就是90%那現在衛福部跟相關單位有跟37個民間團體在做協力合作對嗎"},{"start":6231.368,"end":6255.479,"text":"也就是說我們看到這麼多13萬件就是到了20104年2015年是13萬件到了113年2024到了22萬件看起來好像將近增加了一倍可是我們其實做了風險分流的控管然後我們把適當的人力放到適當的案件上去應該是有實質的進展因為我們也認識非常多社區防暴師他們告訴我們說"},{"start":6256.96,"end":6275.687,"text":"在這個防暴宣講的過程當中除了他們自己的增能他們也發現更多社區裡面的家庭意識到這件事情原來是國家可以協助我的所以我認為我們在跟國人傳達這個通報數量上升的同時其實要把相關風險分級講清楚那也就是這樣所以回過頭來我還是要拜託"},{"start":6277.968,"end":6302.748,"text":"衛福部這邊我們如何協助這些社區防暴師的做宣講可以更到位到更多的社區去那之前呂健的次長也有答應我們說在社安網2.0的部分我們要積極在這部分補足社工那如何協助社工我想後續我們一起努力因為時間有限我不要占用太多時間好那接下來看其實從衛福部這邊到司法院我們也看見工作的困境我覺得這也要讓國人知道"},{"start":6303.789,"end":6323.088,"text":"司法院目前能够审审的法官大概有多少人每一位法官要扛多少件保护令申请案我们在7月质询的时候有一个家事法官郭耀明回复我们说一个法官一年要收200件通常保护令但那个法官身上同时还会有其他案件对不对所以对法官的负担很大"},{"start":6323.829,"end":6345.071,"text":"看到我投影片左手邊有一個通常保護令呢核發天數大概是52天然後暫時保護令是21天當時很多人就問啊為什麼要這麼久那當時你們告訴我們說一個有原額的問題還有就相關資料申請的問題喔那這中間的空窗怎麼處理我可不可以請司法院再說一下讓國人更清楚知道你們相關工作流程"},{"start":6346.704,"end":6361.221,"text":"是謝謝委員關於如何促進縮短這個核化保護令的這個時間點我們做了好幾種的方案來進行那第一個方案就是關於這個"},{"start":6363.504,"end":6385.809,"text":"保護令的一個市民證據的部分我們跟網絡連結起來那麼發了一些譬如說我們給診政署衛福部保護師發文然後讓他落實到第一線在協助申請保護令的時候依交報法第8條協助競訴在第一次或不證實由我們公家機構來協助這樣就不會讓這個"},{"start":6389.39,"end":6415.123,"text":"市民證據太晚以至於在核發有比較晚這是第一個第二個是我們內部的管考內部的管考在暫時保護令我們現在每一個月就快滿一個月就發這個催告這個以及檢查單由最後院長要核定第三個是我們持續一直開下個月要由我本人跟刑事廳長下個月12月嗎"},{"start":6416.203,"end":6437.855,"text":"對12月繼續開再用這個線上跟所有的庭長法官等等來處理這個保護令速度的一個問題因為我們在審理的一個注意事項裡面有法官得依之前調取不是說一定要等當事人補正那這個法官依之前調取的速度就會更快"},{"start":6438.755,"end":6465.116,"text":"那最後一個就是高風險高風險的部分我們就可以先不經開庭儘速在基本的市民夠了我們就儘速發這個暫時保護令因為通保令的時候可以依之前發暫時保護令先去保護人命那其中保護令的第二款禁燒令裡面就有一些相關細節可以保護那當然目前的保護只有禁止騷擾跟蹤跟接觸"},{"start":6468.078,"end":6489.171,"text":"但如果將來有科技監控那可能要思考科技監控就是今天主席所在意的事情那我可不可以拜託主席因為相關科技監控的困境是這樣被害人他要不要同意這件事情或者是剛剛黃委員剛剛說的法國那個系統現在這個系統在台灣一 這個系統在台灣是沒有的我們現在的系統只有刑事監控的系統還有確保他如果"},{"start":6489.871,"end":6505.887,"text":"到了港邊到了岸邊他可能有逃離出境的問題所以這個監控就會這個系統就會Alert發出警告系統但是如果在相關保護令如果一被害人要不要同意這是第一個樣態第二個如果被害人不同意如何透過好的APP系統去保護他這也是另外一個問題"},{"start":6507.068,"end":6527.967,"text":"到底國外用的案例跟系統跟台灣現行的系統我認為落差很大如果我們貿然讓法條通過我認為相關的配套其實只會壓垮第一線的同仁而不見得可以真的保護到所有的被害者如果在國外它是雙軌系統刑事歸民刑事保護令歸保護令我認為現在這個在台灣是沒有的我可不可以拜託我們有機會再開一個公聽會"},{"start":6528.667,"end":6545.612,"text":"例如說就科技專家來問他們可以怎麼協助相關行政單位再來就婦女團體兒權軟體人權團體如何兼顧自由跟人權第三警政署的同仁還有法務部的同仁衛福部的同仁後續的分工其實非常困難要拜託主席可不可以有機會再召開公聽會謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員發言接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":6561.471,"end":6590,"text":"好謝謝主席有請石部長中廷長請石部長還有張師長張師長好三位早這個家暴受害者的心聲就是恕神恕絕我在這邊就8月6號有跟在衛福部也跟司法院應該我們這個法務部也都討論過目前保護令"},{"start":6591.761,"end":6610.131,"text":"這個花期的時間是不是可以盡速的去縮短但是根據保護師的這個資料普通保護令平均是50天暫時保護令是平均23天緊急保護令能當天發出但是當事人不能申請必須第三者就檢察官 警察機關或縣市主管機關"},{"start":6612.532,"end":6638.954,"text":"但這個現代婦女經紀會特別指出台北第一院這個一年的新收不包含在案的案件113年就有一萬四千多件平均下來一名法官可能就被分配到一千多案件嘛這坦白講這是很辛苦一件事情那我當時就特別指出說這個被害者開始申請保護令的時間其實是政治最危險的那個時段"},{"start":6640.856,"end":6655.109,"text":"因為最高度會激怒加害者的時間就是在這個點當時大家也都有認同這個都是不用再贅述的部分但是我為什麼還是在提醒那個時候就是說"},{"start":6656.545,"end":6682.912,"text":"這個時間保護令要等最多還有五十多天以上的平均暫時保護令二十幾天緊急保護令當天能夠發出就好像只有可以救到緊急保護令的對象而已的受害者這是很奇怪一件事情嘛那8月6號討論完了之後希望可以加快但是坦白說各位可以回答我說有加快了嗎"},{"start":6683.832,"end":6705.919,"text":"哪一個階段的 普通保護令加快幾天暫時保護令加快幾天 有人可以答覆我嗎如果沒有 來 我再給各位看一些時間我是認定是一個 這是一個關鍵的事情啦關鍵的問題所在 這個問題如果不解決GPS再裝幾個 似乎好像沒有辦法解決這些問題"},{"start":6708.614,"end":6732.914,"text":"不然你們現在可以馬上打呼我嗎就是說縮短了嗎平均是縮短幾天在這個階段縮短幾天8月6號講的到現在已經足足將近三個月時間三個月的作業時間沒辦法讓我們不管普通保護令暫時保護令都可以因為相關的事件一而在災難上的發生然後督促我們政府相關機關可以"},{"start":6733.655,"end":6740.762,"text":"大家可以坐下來好好去檢討去應變把這個保護令的發起時間去縮短如果三個月過後都沒有顯然"},{"start":6742.008,"end":6770.182,"text":"坦白講我覺得這些事情還是會層出不窮的在持續發生而不是裝了多少個GPS可以去導正可以去改善可以去降低這樣的傷害這是第一件事情那第二件事情你看我們面對這麼大量的這個案件的數量過老的地方法院的法官要如何有效的去減輕壓力強化保護令流程縮短時間我想這個是一定是衛福部跟司法院你們必須去共同面對的課題"},{"start":6771.082,"end":6788.1,"text":"而不是維持現狀讓法官面對家暴的暗骸詐騙的暗骸看不到盡頭而家暴受害者也可能也只能在這個恐懼中一直要等待這麼多天家暴令才可以下來那如果今天你們沒辦法打呼我是不是一個月內啦"},{"start":6790.253,"end":6806.742,"text":"我們再給一個月的時間 衛護部 司法院 法務部是不是大家可以好好坐下來 討論出一個如何縮短保護令花期的時間然後給衛法委員會 可以吧跟委員說明 確實以現在的案量來講這個法官的"},{"start":6807.782,"end":6834.35,"text":"那個負荷很重所以我們之前考論的這個結論是去強化那個風險的辨識把那個高風險的個案先挑出來全部要一下子全部縮短是難度很高啦因為他的負荷太重案子太多了所以我們在強化前端那個高風險個案能夠先高度先先把那個最高風險的抓出來然後去強化是不是"},{"start":6835.67,"end":6864.007,"text":"暫時保護令或緊急保護令來說短大概是這樣的概念去那次也有討論到這樣但是所謂的我們在一個時間的點譬如說一季裡面還是半年裡面你到底這樣的一個多少比例叫做高風險然後這個高風險你到底縮短不管暫時的保護令還是普通保護令到底縮短幾天有數據可以給我們做參考嗎如果有最好嘛 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":6864.987,"end":6882.186,"text":"我們把數據整理一下好 謝謝部長好那另外一個 我也給部長還有各位長官看幾個案件這個都是相關的一些報導那第一個案件加班長嗆家女有保護令也沒有用也沒有用這個加錢再起訴疑神裁決這個續押這個案件 當然像是這樣"},{"start":6885.249,"end":6904.357,"text":"這個加埃人是在與加埃人產生前夕口角9月6號持棒棍到齊昧的加埃市市場的攤位搗毀冰箱等等等然後被警方逮捕移送並緊急申請保護令禁止男子靠齊昧攤位至少100公尺這個男子也被撕毀"},{"start":6909.795,"end":6936.46,"text":"但是又馬上到其妹的攤位那對家人說有保密有沒有用他還是被放出來9月9號隔三天而已他以探望母親為藉口連續兩次前往攤位的樓上住家然後在第二次探望離開時因為其妹不在攤位嘛並要求其妹員工轉達所前需求當場召聚然後他又涉嫌出院恐嚇要叫人做掉他們的員工等等等那當天警方拘報逮捕"},{"start":6939.46,"end":6965.285,"text":"這個家人移送羈押10月20號 嘉義地方法院認為攔指有繼續羈押的必要就裁定羈押 羈押三個月好 這是一個案子嘛你看喔 這個案子來講有保護令有沒有用 它還是被放出來了所以 在羈押三個月之後你們覺得這樣就導正了嗎 它就向善了嗎它就不會再去講說 有保護令有什麼用嗎也不可能啦"},{"start":6966.291,"end":6986.329,"text":"坦白講不可能 我講這個案例 你再看第二個案例金門家暴人女犯不怕被關再度這個瘋狂揮踢踹猛遭羈押這是去年的事情他去年發生被判決有期徒刑確定並執行完畢今年9月17日又再來一次"},{"start":6987.438,"end":6995.251,"text":"好 然後第二個案子加霸龍入獄關三個月 出獄一天後又衝往其妻的處處 違反保護令 備受威壓"},{"start":6998.924,"end":7020.362,"text":"連續這兩個案件 三個案件我要讓三位長官看一個數據 請大家看這個表格這是110年到113年 這四年就好了節節上升的申請保護令的這樣的一個相關的一些統計人數是逐年攀升 未滿保護令幾乎都是居易也就是說一日以上未滿60日佔了這四年的77.26%然後六個月以下是18.71%"},{"start":7026.127,"end":7047.185,"text":"剩下的是6個月以上到3年以下的這個區間有近4年全部僅4、3人剩下的6個月以上到3年以下的這4年裡面僅4、3人占不到1% 0.51啦然後尤其3年以下的這4年只有2個人只有2個人這個數據應該你們都有統計應該也會有這個數據嘛我要凸顯這個問題是說GPS很重要"},{"start":7054.997,"end":7078.005,"text":"但是你看到這些數據之後 他們還是持續的委婉保護鏈的代價好像是很低啊 太低了 對不對一天到居59天的 是佔了高達七成八左右七成八左右 那一年以下剛剛特別已經講 我就不再贅述甚至這些好像是屢試不爽 沒你怕啦 沒你擔心啦"},{"start":7079.925,"end":7108.818,"text":"極極拘役啊 極極一年下嘛 極極兩年下就對了而且到最後的比例三年以下 四年才有兩個人而已所以他不怕啦 不怕你怎麼處理你們要怎麼處理 能不能簡單到我也就是說家暴法的第61條顯然要嚇阻家暴的力道已經微不足道了啦數據會顯示嘛 昨年攀升"},{"start":7111.064,"end":7121.378,"text":"比例 區域的比例就這樣要不要看一下要不要回應我一下要不要朝向這個部分來做修法"},{"start":7124.366,"end":7145.508,"text":"一件事保護你於無誤吧 所以你就不要客氣啊你不就應該將對法律的本質去做 看怎樣大幅度去做調整還是不能調 不能調就是竹簾就持續攀升然後那個區域的1到59天的比例就是這麼高 不該啊"},{"start":7148.257,"end":7176.492,"text":"接待召委排這個是非常重要但是如果你看到這些數據然後加報五六十一條裡面又不去做修正你的本質永遠都不會改變嘛跟委員說明今天的委員的版本也會有針對違反保護令罪去提高他的刑責那也許可以來討論看看提高有用嗎"},{"start":7177.935,"end":7194.628,"text":"然後判的法官是怎麼處理 是這樣子你們怎麼遇到這個問題好像都沒辦法答我然後你看看我看看 大家互相看看法官裁決裁判的"},{"start":7201.225,"end":7227.044,"text":"來 請說明主席站上來了 快點好 是 謝謝委員那其實關於違反家暴法的部分的話因為現在目前為止違反保護另罪是屬於比較輕罪的部分那就誠如委員這邊所講的目前大部分的那個刑度都是落在德意科法金的情況底下那只有比較特殊個案的情況下才會判得比較重那這邊我們都是尊重個案法官的裁處那以上是簡短的對嘛 就是尊重個案法官的裁處沒有錯家中沒有用法官就是要輕判"},{"start":7228.005,"end":7249.966,"text":"邏輯上就這樣嘛 現狀就這樣嘛這個樣態就這個樣子嘛所以你跟廳長整個GPS也不好啊是 報告委員 我剛剛在前一位委員我有報告我們陸續由我們廳長親自跟所有一線在裁判的刑事庭法官"},{"start":7250.586,"end":7274.897,"text":"我們的刑事廳長跟我配合一起跟他們做這個所謂的研習跟相關的意見溝通讓民意跟委員表達的意見讓他們充分的更去審酌這個保護被害人的必要性跟刑責的相當性當然這個沒有拘束但是這樣的一個也就所謂的研習會或者這樣的促進會有相當的影響我們剛剛委員有講我們在今年"},{"start":7279.079,"end":7299.63,"text":"今年的戰保令已經就是以前要二十幾天現在已經加速了兩天多這個當然不足不足以向你們報告但我們還是繼續有很多的方案來促進謝謝好啦 你說聽起來說不足以報告你自己講的也是也心虛虛嘛對不對那你還是報告了嘛這兩天多嘛"},{"start":7300.53,"end":7326.715,"text":"所以是這樣啦 我覺得我們面對問題就是要解決問題大家都會講嘛那我們是不是可以真的加快嘛然後你們是不是可以趕快做下來到底這事情怎麼去做因應嘛然後加保61條的這一個部分是不是要要有所積極的因應琢磨去做修正嘛我是不是請部長 請相關主管能不能做下來兩個星期內研議啊這個加快速度啦 可不可以 好不好"},{"start":7327.875,"end":7346.924,"text":"兩個星期啦 別再拖啦 8月6號講到現在了這兩件事情 保護令的縮短 還有這一個行者的部分 可以吧好 謝謝 已經答應了 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請王育民委員發言我還沒宣告"},{"start":7354.246,"end":7362.776,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請衛福部部長司法院少家庭廳長還有法務部檢察司司長一起上好我也好今天討論這個家暴法的這個"},{"start":7372.625,"end":7397.879,"text":"法條的修正案主要真的是我們看到現在對於這些被害者的保護不足那第一個我要問的就是現在違反保護令的這個犯罪人數平均大概有2548人但是申請羈押只有178件平均只有7%那裁定羈押又更低了131件只有5.1%"},{"start":7399.6,"end":7421.87,"text":"基本上會違反保護令的這個其實對於被害人來講他真的是心生恐懼而且呢這個加害人顯然是是法令與無誤有保護令但是他還不遵守那為什麼第一個要問的為什麼申請羈押的比例如此之低來誰要回答這一題法務部來"},{"start":7423.53,"end":7443.446,"text":"那跟委員報告就是委員的這個數據有關那個案件數的部分那它其實是包含一般的函送案件跟現行犯移送的案件所以那大部分現行犯移送案件它是比較嚴重的案件所以說我們的那個申請羈押會在這個現行犯的案件移送的時候來做進行"},{"start":7444.066,"end":7450.231,"text":"目前本部經過統計在今年跟去年來比較去年一整年的針對違反加爆法的羈押件數是274件去年今年的1到9月已經到344件所以其實是有逐步的提升針對相關的檢察官的教育訓練還有就是我們跟相關部會之間資訊的連結我們也都來強化"},{"start":7469.164,"end":7487.612,"text":"以這個把這個事證收集的更完整之後然後作為檢察官他辦案的一個參考依據以上報告這個申請羈押的比例過低我覺得其實就是檢察官他們的意識不足而且他也輕忽這個違反保護令他對於這個被害人的"},{"start":7488.372,"end":7506.107,"text":"這樣的一個傷害跟心理的恐懼喔我們來看一下今年的這個土城的案件發生在土城的這個案件我覺得我們中華民國的政府應該不允許有這樣子的情況出現喔已經拿到保護令的被害人竟然會在街頭"},{"start":7506.907,"end":7524.746,"text":"就是被這個加害人持刀行兇刺死我們的法律我們的政府機關我們的公權力我們保護不了一個拿著保護令的被害人這個真的是要好好徹底的檢討這一連串的從警政機關"},{"start":7526.347,"end":7547.735,"text":"移送到這個檢察官之後檢察官竟然是無保請回這個人已經是違反了保護令那為什麼你們在審理這樣的案件的時候檢察官沒有任何的這樣的一個意識或者是想要深入去理解檢察官不能去調閱"},{"start":7548.675,"end":7562.676,"text":"就是之前的這個人到底有沒有違反的紀錄嗎不能去調閱相關的這一些社工在處獄的這一些報告嗎有沒有參採是不是太輕率太草率了這個案件你們沒有去好好的檢討有嗎"},{"start":7566.327,"end":7586.105,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個案件發生之後那我們內部有做一些相關檢討也跟這個衛福部這邊都有參與相關的會議那主要就是說有關這個資訊的收集的部分那可能當時有一些落差那導致蔣官他在在這個詢問被告的時候他沒有完整充分有關這個加害人"},{"start":7587.086,"end":7610.646,"text":"過去的這個違反家暴令的一些相關的記錄資料所以是太草率嘛我覺得檢察官在承辦這類的案件他們可能覺得不是很重要的案件他手上很多他沒有把這個市委是重要要去辦的案件嘛那這樣子就很容易因為他的不夠積極的辦案他就疏忽了很多的證據啊應該羈押而沒有羈押而導致這個悲劇發生嘛"},{"start":7611.607,"end":7626.725,"text":"那個時間就是7月6號他無保請回 7月7號就發生慘案就是這樣的一個情況嘛所以我要求這個部分 這個法務部一定要好好去檢討就是說怎麼樣未來 我在這次的修法裡面有提到把被害人的陳述意見"},{"start":7627.466,"end":7653.462,"text":"就是檢察官一定要參裁我不管你們支不支持這樣的立法但是你在實務上一定要做到這一點我覺得往往你們在懲辦相關案件的時候都忽略了這個被害人他的狀態 他主述的一些意見你如果真的好好聽的話你會覺得已經非常嚴重了旁邊的友人已經知道他是多麼的惡劣結果來到檢察官手上他覺得一點都不重要 烏包請回"},{"start":7654.162,"end":7672.092,"text":"這個就是一個很嚴重的資訊落差跟對案情的一個判斷就是完全失準所以這個部分我要求你們應該要好好的來處理接下來我們看一下這一次其實還有一個很重要的就是被害人可不可以主動知道加害人在哪裡這樣的一個資訊"},{"start":7673.453,"end":7694.905,"text":"那這一個事情我看了你們通篇的大家的報告之後大家說方向上好像是對的可是大家有很多的可是就是最好不要是我主管最好不要是我來做大家感覺又是推來推去那剛剛部長你在回應的時候說這個修法還要半年你們才提得出版本"},{"start":7695.845,"end":7721.903,"text":"有需要這麼久的時間啊那如果需要這麼久的時間我要問的是普城的悲劇如何不再發生這一段的空窗期你沒有任何法令的措施請問這一些的被害人他如何知道加害人已經接近他請問你們要用的是什麼措施如果沒有你還可以拖個半年180天這樣的空窗期再出一件事情是不是通通都要下台負責"},{"start":7724.388,"end":7746.898,"text":"跟委員報告啦因為這個要修法我們還是嚴謹啦當然嚴謹但是拖半年會不會太離譜了但是其他的措施還是需要去強化我們還是持續的在強化你要如何強化在這一段修法完成的空窗期我就問一個問題如何讓被害人知道說加害人在他附近你們可以提出示警跟預警怎麼做"},{"start":7748.479,"end":7775.524,"text":"这个我们要再研究一下看这个怎么处理这个因为这都有涉及到人生的自由行动跟隐私的问题所以就不处理吗所以就不用做吗我们会来研议看怎么做我必须讲我们现在所有的政府机关今天委员为什么纷纷提出修法就是你现在保护令不足而且悲剧都已经发生了那你们还可以缓如牛布的修法说半年以后再提版本"},{"start":7777.043,"end":7801.661,"text":"這個就是沒有把它當一回事嘛有在重視這件事情嗎如果有在重視這件事情怎麼需要半年的時間才可以提出修法的方案呢趕快部會 趕快互相去開會這件事情今天才發生嘛 已經質詢多久了今天是召委才排這個案子你們知道土城那個悲劇已經多久了當時大家說 這個方向很好我們也覺得可以往這個方向做"},{"start":7802.521,"end":7824.763,"text":"結果呢今天各部會報告各寫各的沒有人要單起來做這件事情就是推來推去啊這件事情到底誰該負責誰主責這個修法工作部長是你嗎還是法務部我們會來主責這個修法啦那就加快這個半年絕對沒有辦法接受啦你可以加多快我們努力"},{"start":7826.365,"end":7845.7,"text":"你们应该在两个月之内赶快提出来吧其他的这个做法我们还是会去精进修法的部分我们努力来提不能拖到半年太久了配套还是需要讨论的部长你不是讲究很有效率吗怎么遇到这种修法你就没有效率了我们修法一向有效率可是这涉及到这个"},{"start":7846.94,"end":7873.185,"text":"趕快開會啊趕快去研議啊你們現在最大的問題應該是推來推去又沒有人想要擔這件事吧這可能才是最大的問題最後我問你這個兒少專責單位的事情基本上這個方向我是肯定的因為之前我就已經跟呂宏基教授大家極力在倡議那這個專責單位即將要成立非常的同意但是你的組織規模是重點了你知道日本是多少人嗎"},{"start":7874.645,"end":7892.754,"text":"510人他下轄在哪裡人家是下轄在首相之下所以日本的規模跟他的成績是比我們大那部長你有沒有這個概念我們的兒少廳我們的兒少署我們到底要多少人你心目中的規模現在是多少人"},{"start":7893.885,"end":7917.32,"text":"我心目中我们现在在盘点所有的业务你不可以长出一个几十人哦不会啦那就太离谱了至少应该是百人以上的规模吧你说要从胚胎就要开始啊那你应该就是要一个更完整的架构好不好他会有这个从健康政策的拟定开始所以他的人员编制就应该是一个大数不是一个小小的数"},{"start":7917.56,"end":7945.504,"text":"到目前我們的業務的整合跟未來的這個規劃都會超過百人規模以上吧我們會努力來爭取一定要百人規模以上你要從胚胎就開始照顧這是你講的所以就必須是一個有規模的數好不好對好謝謝我們往這個方向來爭取好謝謝謝謝王育民委員發言現在宣告待會邱政軍委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":7951.655,"end":7959.865,"text":"謝謝主席 那我請石部長請石部長還有我們中拼長還有保護部的張師長拼長跟師長 請"},{"start":7968.517,"end":7991.936,"text":"部長 我今天這麼聽下去我們衛福部好像不是這個法的主責單位我看你們都是做末段而已啊前面發生 發生問題啊 有人傷亡啊 站起來啊你們也死不勝利啊所以你們都是後段 我不是在善後部長"},{"start":7994.765,"end":8022.575,"text":"當然不是跟後段其實從前段我們就開始努力了對於這種家暴意識的宣導通報機制的建立還有後段社工如何介入協助然後到保護令發生之後的陪伴這些我們都是涉獵在其中我們看就在我們東港發生的家暴叫做暴案"},{"start":8023.496,"end":8043.992,"text":"不然檢查就來了後來之後就做筆錄筆錄之後做錯的或是去派出所做之後他就上地檢署上地檢署有的是韓送有的是南方黨主要RK現在去到地檢署可能檢察官問問之後檢察事務官問了檢察官附訊有可能就上訓練訓練之後法官要保護你們要出來"},{"start":8051.584,"end":8071.4,"text":"好 保護令出來了沒有 保護令不要緊出來了保護令出來了 這個保護令是交給誰去執行我們 廳長 廳長你來回答一下警察 警察委屬吧來來來 警察委屬 報告委員會有報告嗎 要怎麼執行是警察執行 還是你們法務部的人執行"},{"start":8074.082,"end":8098.602,"text":"保護令合法以後我們要24小時內立即送達給警察機關的加防官同時送達給當地的保護的家庭暴力防治中心那保護令的執行在加爆法21條有好幾種方案那其中如果涉及財產什麼的當然是由我們的執行處去執行"},{"start":8099.122,"end":8116.474,"text":"那如果是要帶同進去取物品的也是警察機關進去所以有幾個但是保護人命最重要的是給加防官就是警察機關接著要不要做庇護單位的相關庇護的是所以你是交到各個分局去"},{"start":8117.916,"end":8132.297,"text":"警察分局去了是警察分局裡面分局還是派出所因為夠交房官設在分局設在分局那人力配置是夠嗎第一個第二個"},{"start":8133.659,"end":8155.077,"text":"我這次修法是希望用電子絞料啦 手銬啦就讓它 你給它含這一大堆它造出來 你就要有警示警示就有一個科控中心 科控中心是放在哪裡是屏東放在哪裡是法務部本身 高檢署本身要有科控中心"},{"start":8155.917,"end":8173.237,"text":"客戶中心發生這些人遭遇 遭遇被害做的可能像這個發生的事情客戶中心是在統治什麼人不像韓劇在做一個保護官去就讓他制止跟手銬我們都有這個機制吧客戶中心是多數人他的設備是什麼"},{"start":8177.458,"end":8204.921,"text":"要招標的事情指定廠商等等我不知道啦然後這個監控設備八十幾套有六十套五十套都在維修中然後我這次要求就是說要怎麼去通知那個被害者叫他關照啊有可能去校啊還要來啊往那個方向那你這個被害者都不知道嘛像那個在"},{"start":8206.531,"end":8232.112,"text":"死者跟他們的遺憾給我提示就給我提示那就是他什麼都不知道啊碰到他就給我提示啊這是很恐怖的事情耶 廷長是 報告委員我先就兩個執行保護令的回答剛剛那個我們第一個馬上通知加王關他在分局那麼他們都會落實到派出所馬上到"},{"start":8232.853,"end":8253.066,"text":"加害人那边去交付保护令宣读告诫然后同时让他签执行书这个会立即送为我们法院我们会去监督有没有执行这是第一个部分但详细有关这个执行的警察人力有需要的话可能要请我们的先进就是警政署这边说明警政署可以跟我详细我感觉这都俐落了"},{"start":8256.548,"end":8280.28,"text":"是 這是第一部分那第二部分有關於這個剛剛委員所關心的這個科控的問題我們大家都持肯定但是有待我們整個相關部會整合研究一個剛剛所有的疑問那些去把它整合出來你科控中心 我看是掛在高田宿啦高田宿就高雄啊 屏東就高雄啊"},{"start":8280.64,"end":8292.73,"text":"因為這個是民事保護令的禁止接近保護人命的科控跟我們預防逃亡的刑事科控它在制度是不同的那這個呢 這個傷亡率很高"},{"start":8296.733,"end":8303.218,"text":"所以國外也有這樣的制度我們西班牙 韓國都比我們更先進你現在科控中心在僱傭你說九點數就僱傭僱傭是要通知黨黨 通知民眾是要通知 是有人立法那個保護官去 他有公權立法他可以制止他可以上手銬衛福部的人都沒辦法衛福部都是在善後而已警察機關 警政署"},{"start":8325.49,"end":8346.97,"text":"委員好 委員剛剛垂詢到的這個有關我們這個加防官的部分全國大概現在各分局原則上會配置1到2名依照人口數每10萬人配置1名執行加保令這部分 譬如說剛才司法院所說的法官核准以後我們的保護令會通締分局的加防官"},{"start":8347.69,"end":8350.791,"text":"所以說用科技的用GPS的不管一定要通知被害的人"},{"start":8366.036,"end":8387.826,"text":"被那些人陷了一招被那些人看到說這褲子來啊來啊來啊他就關照啊我剛才站在車子上已經痠了這最快不然你被槍打到你暈死了他就都失去理智了嘛法官在跟他賣 又一回輸現在看到保護人又越上去看到又越抓狂就看到每件案件都這樣嘛所以"},{"start":8389.284,"end":8406.331,"text":"用科技 我們的科技在進步嘛 配置做得好這個鼻子這裡要給他 看他要不要手機聯絡 還是要給他裝備說這個 這些 這些加害者 現在在哪裡 靠近你那裡他看到 他想 他想什麼我們都是外人 我們都搞不清狀況 不過這 一直來啊"},{"start":8414.734,"end":8421.856,"text":"不然這樣你看大家牽涉到太多單位了啦每一關都零零落落啦這補貼有時間夠了六分鐘而已齁這齁 要去統合啦"},{"start":8430.359,"end":8458.565,"text":"你是主轴单位 你在那统合这我们会负起这个责任来讨论因为这个执行细节真的需要更详细的了解到底要不要警示加害人的位置还是只是对被害人发出警讯因为单纯发出警讯不了解方位能不能达到保护的效果那没好 那没好所以一定还要让他有方位然后他到底怎么样来执行这里面有一些细节确实我们要讨论"},{"start":8460.265,"end":8485.979,"text":"這件事是要我們蘇化部也要參與啊不然你只站在一間房子裡點蚵仔麵線在那裡點肉雞 用手洗的我所有的聽到都說只設計出來都在點蚵仔麵線而已這差太多了吧柏定 這次你主持你來打起來 好不好要給我們一點時間討論啦好 加油"},{"start":8491.901,"end":8513.667,"text":"好 謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言主席好 我們請石部長好 邱委員好部長好 還是一樣的問題啦就我們今年8月6號我們在這邊檢討保護令的問題當時你有在現場嗎8月6沒有"},{"start":8519.318,"end":8540.84,"text":"沒有啊當時的我們的邱部長答應說半年之後他要提出版本那您在9月1號上任那我您上任之後有參與這個違反家暴令的加害人這個要裝電子監控的討論嗎11月份3號11月3號我主持這個會議有主持結果勒"},{"start":8542.677,"end":8558.892,"text":"就是主要把一些這個跨部會大家看看怎麼樣加強這個合作我們有做出一些共識所以當天開會的都是跨部會的對因為當時邱部長是說一個月就要這個跨部會的會議要開"},{"start":8559.893,"end":8587.99,"text":"半年內要提出修法當時我們看一下公報司法院說支持又說國外也有這樣的電子監控警政署代表也說有這樣的監控應該對被害人的安全是比較有及時的一個保障教育部的代表也說了有預警系統對被害人當然是會更好法務部的代表也說法務部尊重我們衛福部的策劃原則上各部會都在"},{"start":8588.57,"end":8602.536,"text":"支持家暴高風險實施電子監控那我不知道你們的進度到現在是已經三個月過去了你只開了一次會那到底是草案有沒有在寫有沒有在準備"},{"start":8606.39,"end":8634.294,"text":"跟委員補充在8月6號之後我們連續開了三次其中討論到有關修法也就是要把電子監控入法這件事情當時部會的討論是說這個方向是可以但是相關的配套需要更多的研究所以我們基於涉及到它需要研究所以在相關的法條上面因為還沒有把完整的配套你沒有研究什麼"},{"start":8634.494,"end":8654.059,"text":"是 就是對於這樣的一個電子監控在台灣執行對被害人的一些權益是不是會受到一些影響那我們也希望參採國外的一些經驗再來做一些經濟被害人怎麼會有影響呢如果是要雙向的話被害人他基本上他根本不是 你們不會現在科技這麼發達你們不會找好一點啊"},{"start":8657.748,"end":8670.562,"text":"我們對這個加害人的監控我們都是支持但是對這個雙向監控的時候就會涉及到被害人的自由跟隱私的他就會被監控了"},{"start":8671.072,"end":8687.083,"text":"那當然我們入法之後如果說被害人他自己不願意當然我們尊重啦我覺得我們還是可以尊重但是法條這個我覺得我們這些這個規定我覺得應該是可以同步來執行吧"},{"start":8688.204,"end":8709.613,"text":"就是說如果是在這個當然未來如果要實施一定是要被害人同意的這個先決條件一定是這樣可是只有被害人的同意是不夠的那怎麼樣才夠到時候的執行細節要怎麼個執行法不要讓他產生干擾他的生活所以給你們半年時間了嘛對不對你們半年都沒有在做區副長8月6號答應我們"},{"start":8714.638,"end":8719.097,"text":"可是您9月1號就上任了您可以撐半年嗎"},{"start":8721.558,"end":8747.947,"text":"我盡我的力量來做如果半年又換人我們是不是要重來我們會盡快來不然我希望你趕快啦你趕快破了這個魔咒你就不會你就會留下來好不好我們努力來做對啊因為我講真的因為前面已經說過了其他部會都贊成當然你們可以因為半年時間我覺得可以做很充分的討論我希望這個速度加快了好不好好那另外我再請問一下"},{"start":8749.427,"end":8767.231,"text":"兒家屬到底是怎麼樣的一個單位我想這兩天在討論這個議題丟出來各界都有很多期待那大家都認為是因應營少子化產生的新單位又看到你說這個是負責配他到兒童嘛那又有報導說是18歲以下都要負責那現在他到底要負責哪裡"},{"start":8769.869,"end":8792.187,"text":"這個原則上他跟少子化的政策是另外一件事情我們是針對兒童的照顧去強化兒童是幾歲到幾歲那兒童如果是以我們醫學的定義的話那兒童的18歲以下都稱為兒童啦那原本不是社家署裡面就有屬於18歲以下的這個單位了嗎我說社家署裡面不是就有了嗎不是負責18歲以下的嗎"},{"start":8794.028,"end":8817.279,"text":"到底這兩個單位你要怎麼去區分我們現在對兒童的業務有散在在不同的單位比如說有涉及到兒童的健康促進預防保健的業務會涉及到兒童保護的業務會涉及到兒童福利或者是托嬰托育的業務所以它是散在在不同的單位所以未來我們會把這些業務集中成為一個專責的單位才能夠統合"},{"start":8819.46,"end":8838.932,"text":"把他整個統合那他是屬於衛福部還是屬於屬於教育部因為這邊有牽扯到好幾個部會吧對所以那到底他是屬於衛福部還是因為他算是一個您下屬的一個機關嘛對不對那如果他要去整合其他部會你覺得他有這個能力有這個能量嗎"},{"start":8839.332,"end":8860.527,"text":"他要去協調沒有問題就是說他這個專責單位除了本身衛福部的業管的業務整合之外他也成為一個單一的專責的窗口來協助做跨部會之間的協調整合好 那我希望也看到你們能夠有一個好的規範出來謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8869.716,"end":8871.382,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9730.011,"end":9753.368,"text":"好 繼續開會 接下來請圖權級委員發言好 謝謝主席那先請我們石部長還有我們警政署副署長請石部長跟李副署長"},{"start":9756.3,"end":9783.849,"text":"土葛委員好好 謝謝部長那我先請問一下我們警政署我們李副署長我們警察是我們家暴防治法裡面的裡面的算是執法防治人員嗎是的那我請問一下那如果像我們執行家暴的這些防治人員如果沒有在24小時之內通報當地主管機關那這樣是不是有處分的問題"},{"start":9785.618,"end":9799.36,"text":"剛委員報告 警政署對於家暴案件的處理都定有相關的SOP如果沒有在實現內通知相關的單位的話那依照規定是有處罰的 處分 要處分"},{"start":9800.657,"end":9822.866,"text":"據我了解好像是會罰款就是6000元以上 3萬元以下我們看一下我們在110年我們看一下這個圖在110年到113年這段時間你看我們從民國87年開始實施到現在已經有27年我們看了一下"},{"start":9826.027,"end":9849.2,"text":"110年到113年這一段期間有8件沒有在24小時之內通報這8件裡面就有5件是我們警察在知悉有疑似家暴事件可是並沒有在24小時之內提出那這一部分我們是不是警政署這一部分沒有再加強因為"},{"start":9850.16,"end":9878.007,"text":"我們要知道如果這個延誤通報萬一發生家暴事件讓我們這些受害人受到身體受到傷害甚至生命受到影響那這一部分警政署有沒有什麼方式說讓這個事情能夠降低那有發生這樣子的問題如果真的因為你延誤通報那讓我們受害者遭受到這些迫害那警政署要怎麼負責"},{"start":9879.266,"end":9895.734,"text":"剛剛委員報告警政署針對這個發生的個案一定會做個案的案例那這些案例呢都會透過我們的長訓或者各種有關婦幼相關的訓練會做這個案例的檢討另外呢就是除了"},{"start":9896.854,"end":9922.967,"text":"處理的同仁他除了接受行政的划算以外他還要另外接受行政處分那所以在整個通報的這個紀律的部分警政署都是持續在做要求那也可以從這些案件來看我們目前統計的趨勢是每年都在下降也就是說這個受理報案的員警他們有依規定通報的部分我們都有相關的統計資料也在做改進當中"},{"start":9923.387,"end":9950.086,"text":"所以希望警政署也去了解一下為什麼實施二十幾年居然還是這個事情還是會有那你因為你延誤通報造成這些受害者萬一真的發生身體受到傷害或者生命送到危險這不是警政署去罰錢就能夠解決的問題所以我希望還是要加強來宣導來輔導然後告知我們這些執法人員是的 沒問題 這個我們會持續加強"},{"start":9950.546,"end":9974.638,"text":"好 那也請問一下部長那剛剛我們有提到你看87年時事到現在我們這三年有八件然後我們發現這八件裡面有五件都在高雄那你們有瞭解說為什麼高雄這部分的比例是比較偏高而且據我們瞭解它罰6000到3萬元當然我們知道這個"},{"start":9976.218,"end":9995.488,"text":"這個處罰罰錢它只是一個手段並不是我們的目的那我們看高雄每次都罰六千結果罰六千它這個層出不窮結果彰化一次罰兩萬多塊結果發生以後就沒有再發生這是不是跟處罰太輕是不是也有關係"},{"start":9998.124,"end":10013.874,"text":"跟委員報告我們會再進一步的了解這高雄市他在這個執行上的一些考量是什麼那我們會來強化這個跨縣市之間對於這種違反規定的裁罰的一致性來做一個共識這樣"},{"start":10015.235,"end":10037.42,"text":"對 今天會提出就是希望我們要如何去督促畢竟這個已經14 20幾年了那雖然好像是有下降可是我覺得這24小時內通報是應該做得到的並沒有什麼技術上面的困難可能是宣導不夠還是我們執行人員對這一方面的"},{"start":10039.201,"end":10050.367,"text":"對這方面的重視因為你一定要知道可能其中一件你延後通報造成一個不可挽回的事情這都不是我們願意見到的好 這我們強化這個溝通"},{"start":10052.878,"end":10064.18,"text":"好 那我再請問一下 這可能要請我們司法院我們在法官或檢察官要求完成加害人處遇計畫可是他卻拒絕報到我們根據衛福部有統計這三年有高達2231個家暴的加害人"},{"start":10075.923,"end":10083.768,"text":"他拒絕完成儲育計畫那針對這部分如果加害人拒絕完成有沒有什麼處分"},{"start":10087.797,"end":10116.869,"text":"報告委員 發了保護令以後那這個效率是等同不依規定去執行這個處理計畫是違反保護令罪就是屬於要移送檢察官偵辦那可是據衛福部統計有2231個家暴 加害人他拒絕報到那我們真正事實上有起訴的有多少"},{"start":10119.252,"end":10119.652,"text":"這個起訴了"},{"start":10124.148,"end":10148.707,"text":"就我们事务上了解的确有一些是这个违反保护令之后移送然后要做起诉那在这个侦查阶段还有审判阶段法官或检察官认为说在执行的程序刑事程序上面还有一些瑕疵也就是说那你的送达以及他知不知道这些部分好像还有一些可以补除所以因此他没有"},{"start":10149.527,"end":10169.952,"text":"進行所謂的裁定或者是做處分我想這個部分的確在溝通上面有時候將來整個配套上面可以再來做精進所以當然我們知道可能法院在審理這些案件它有它很多面向的考量當然它可能主觀認為說它可能不是故意的"},{"start":10170.492,"end":10198.949,"text":"但是我們現在重點就是說我們儲育計畫目的就是要讓加害人接受輔導接受治療那可是你看這三年居然就有兩千多個那我們衛福部主管單位有沒有想過怎麼樣去怎麼樣子去降低這一部分為什麼加害人拒絕接受儲育計畫這個比例人數這麼的多是不是我們衛福部還有司法單位有沒有什麼方法"},{"start":10199.409,"end":10221.642,"text":"怎麼樣來去降低我們這個部分有打算每年我們都有一個研討會 個案研討會那在個案研討會上面我們把這個議題當作一個主要的議題找相關網絡大家來做一些討論包括我們執行保護令的加寒處理計畫的縣市政府"},{"start":10222.242,"end":10250.993,"text":"還有這些機構還有我們的司法院以及加防中心我們整體來做一些討論看看有沒有一些精進的方式包括執行的方式有沒有做一些調整對啊 雖然說這2000多個很多他未必起訴違反保護令但是我們真的一定要想辦法怎麼樣去降低他為什麼會去拒絕做這個儲育計畫我們應該要提出一個實際怎麼樣去精進改善的方式"},{"start":10253.037,"end":10279.692,"text":"我們再來跟我們整個網絡討論一下提出更精進的方法我希望後面我們衛福部能夠針對這部分提出一些改善的計畫好 我們來協調大家一起來好 那我再請問一下部長在113年家暴事件通報案件你看多達22萬多件那受庇護協助的人數有8000多人那隨行子女有600多人那"},{"start":10280.772,"end":10306.917,"text":"據我們了解我們看到這個縣市政府應該要提供庇護宅但是我們看衛福部這些資料目前我們22個縣市只有14個縣市有中長期的庇護宅那也就是說有8個縣市是完全沒有的那這一部分我們有沒有改善計畫預計多久能夠完成布建全台跟委員說明"},{"start":10307.797,"end":10334.191,"text":"有緊急的庇護所這大概都比較比較充足啦緊急的這是短期的那至於中長期的確實不是每個縣市都有所以我們已經有請這個各縣市衛生各縣市政府來協助那麼增加這個中長期的庇護所的這個因為這個不夠普及的話就會造成執行上還要離家不方便等等這些會來會來改善"},{"start":10335.431,"end":10349.494,"text":"對啊我們希望說我們衛福部還是提出個計劃你至少在每個縣市都要有一個中長期的屁股財好這部分我們請衛福部來盡快來研究看怎麼去加強改善好謝謝謝謝圖全基委員接下來請盧憲宜委員發言"},{"start":10366.52,"end":10379.703,"text":"主席有請部長請時部長部長有兩個問題問你那你知道那個暴力的那個這個period有幾個period嗎"},{"start":10381.78,"end":10407.56,"text":"家庭暴力的那個整個那個循環啊你有聽過這個循環嗎循環喔這請委員指教OK它就是有一個緊張期爆發期跟蜜月期那常常發生是在爆發期那其實每個個案的狀況不一樣這也是今天我們要開這個會的一個最主要的原因就是申請保護令的實效性那我剛剛翻了衛福部的資料就是說很像看到我們"},{"start":10408.66,"end":10430.251,"text":"暴力的話是0.37是針對一般國人原住民的話是0.87就是高了一倍左右可是我在看世界的資料的時候很像這個低估很多你覺得低估的原因是什麼目前世界的資料大概是4%我們台灣的研究是0.37%將近10倍你覺得低估的原因是什麼"},{"start":10431.489,"end":10454.25,"text":"這還是在這個這個意識到跟通報這兩個部分當然是因為可能被害人認為我報了也沒有用所以我覺得今天的用意就是感謝昭偉用這個就是其實我們的國人可能感受不到我們目前政府的努力所以我們希望說從保護令這個地方或者電子電子監控這邊來努力以下我請我們的中廳長"},{"start":10463.335,"end":10486.488,"text":"廳長我希望說就是我們在做一些預期的時候你要知道說大概遇害的這個時間點是什麼時候因為其實我們常常發現是在當下或者說出庭後的下午或者是前一天就是後一天大概就是這樣一個情況所以可能要做一個你要把保護令縮短這個時間的時效性的一個證據"},{"start":10488.269,"end":10507.541,"text":"把他提出來不然之前的保護令要52天現在說23天那我們有人修法是5天可是就被害人的角度會是我的希望會是當下就有保護令你覺得呢是報告委員您剛說的我們都同意目前我們也做一個"},{"start":10508.822,"end":10526.169,"text":"系統性的一個規劃跟研究以及效能推動我跟委員報告一下也就是說我們現在已經促進了網絡在法律明定第八條加爆法那個我們所有網絡協助當事人申請保護令的時候他們有"},{"start":10527.269,"end":10545.742,"text":"協助收集證據資料附上來那我們法院也製作了這個例稿後面也有例示要哪些事證那這個一進來法官就可以不該停核發這種戰保令這個時間就可以收到我們希望讓受害人能夠及時得到我們國家的保護好不好好 謝謝 謝謝廳長有請張師長"},{"start":10557.802,"end":10568.985,"text":"當然我們目前的努力是往那個電子監控的方向那你覺得多少公尺多少的距離你覺得這個電子監控是有效的或者是說可以遏止我們的加害人"},{"start":10570.411,"end":10594.358,"text":"跟委員報告就是每個個案的狀況不同那究竟多少公尺才能夠保護到這個被害人的我剛看了南韓的資料是他是100公尺可是有人就笑他說100公尺20秒就可以跑到了那所以我們在合理在計算這個距離的時候是不是在你在研議這個這樣的一個規模的時候是不是要把這個算進去然後以後我們無論是"},{"start":10594.938,"end":10612.194,"text":"以後的數量 這個經費是不是可以早點來規劃讓我們國人知道說確實法務部在這方面的一個這方面的努力可以嗎是 謝謝OK 謝謝最後我請我們的李副署長請李文章副署長"},{"start":10619.707,"end":10645.624,"text":"委員好對 我們看到就是這次的7月7號這個案子就是發生在開庭的下午所以我們有一個訴求就是說能不能讓個案是安全出庭到安全返回居所在那個人力的警力這個佈置那我們回想到4年前2021年的1月21號有一個妻子跟律師就是辯護律師被他的就是"},{"start":10646.324,"end":10668.164,"text":"就加害人用車子撞死在法院的前面時隔四年我們國家還是一點進展都沒有希望這個被害人就是不能白白無辜送死我希望這個部分警政署這邊可以就出庭出庭後到安全住所這樣的一個警力的佈置我希望能夠及早規劃"},{"start":10671.064,"end":10690.684,"text":"有關刑事案件或者交報案件被害人出庭還有出庭完後回家的部分目前警政署都是採取協助的性質只要相關的社工也好或者是被害人本身他們提出需求的話大概都會規劃警力來執行"},{"start":10692.125,"end":10719.091,"text":"那相關的宣導的措施我們也都在推行那目前在執行當然還是有一些需要精進的地方那大部分案件如果被害人有提出這樣的需求的話警方是會配合來執行希望廣為周知讓被害的人可以感受到國家的保護讓他們在被害人加害人暴力的脅迫當下他們還有一個可以安慰的出口這個部分我們會配合來執行謝謝三長官"},{"start":10723.654,"end":10733.136,"text":"謝謝盧憲宜委員發言請吳思瑤委員發言請時部長 請中廳長然後法務部檢察司張司長還有李副署長"},{"start":10752.761,"end":10777.573,"text":"布朗辛苦了有一句話說亂世用重點亂世用重點下一句是什麼我已經寫在上面了公心才是上策亂世用重點是不是有絕對的效益我剛剛正從司法法治委員會氣慘吁吁地趕來因為司法法治委員會今天有個主題"},{"start":10778.573,"end":10803.883,"text":"就是防治詐騙其實是全民共識甚至詐騙的犯罪是全球的公敵全球都在面對這個嚴峻的司法案件的挑戰我們要有效的去前端預防跟後端的懲治但是如果用邊形啊今天司法法治委員會的主題是說要不要學新加坡把詐騙也納入邊形"},{"start":10806.904,"end":10834.936,"text":"來執行我剛剛秀了一個PVT新加坡用鞭刑現在是要擴大把詐騙納入鞭刑台灣是不是要學是今天有立委的倡議但是我們來看新加坡這個國家他用鞭刑很久鞭刑這個制度從英國殖民時期留下來或者是一些回教國家他們有他們宗教的因素他們持續沿用現在的先進國家是很少在使用因為他違反了國際的人權公約"},{"start":10836.016,"end":10863.786,"text":"但是如果說邊形是有用的話其實新加坡在國際的治安安全屏蔽裡頭其實台灣的成績是優於新加坡的台灣第四新加坡全球第十所以我說亂世用重點有用嗎或是甚至因此在要趕快懲罰犯罪的前提之下就去亂世用亂點我認為讓人權走回頭路這是不應該的"},{"start":10865.046,"end":10879.594,"text":"所以我從司法法治委員會這個時空跳到這裡來當然我們今天在衛華委員會討論的是科技設備的監控要不要擴大用在防治家暴的案例我認為當然都有同樣的面向我們要一起去思考"},{"start":10880.614,"end":10894.32,"text":"亂世用重點有效嗎攻心才是上策有效的診斷犯罪者的心理有效的在前端預防才是我們討論政策更嚴謹更系統性的一個切入點本期是這樣認為下一頁"},{"start":10896.261,"end":10911.029,"text":"所以說我們來看看大家都防治家暴家暴法到今年應該是27年嗎所以呢你們前陣子也開了一個擴大的跨部會會議希望能夠更精進相關的作為那防治家暴"},{"start":10911.969,"end":10935.747,"text":"我在司法法治委員會也提過很多次事前的防範應當優於事後的重罰或者是兩者要並重不能夠簡化為某一端比較重要天平要保持平衡甚至我認為前端的預防更為重要那我們以保護令這件事情我們對不起我們先來講這個家暴案類法務部或是司法院在這裡"},{"start":10937.208,"end":10962.866,"text":"家暴這10年的案件的統計裁定人數如果我有誤你們可以糾正有罪判決是68%而有罪判決當中是判拘役就是相對比較輕的是佔了41%左右6個月以下刑期16%6個月以上比較重的是8%"},{"start":10966.348,"end":10991.823,"text":"另外还有无罪跟不受理不受理还高达27%换言之以这个具体的统计数字告诉我们家暴大家深厚误觉但是以判决的结果告诉我们他多数不会是到很重很重很危险的重要重大的伤害所以这是用判刑的结果来说当然有极端个案"},{"start":10992.603,"end":11018.397,"text":"也就是我們今天大家討論土城那個案那真的是讓大家非常的痛心疾首我們的保護令就差那個最後一步但是我們在看待所有的案件都還是要回到憲法的比例原則我們還是要符合罪行相當的原則我們還不還是不能去預約了適當性的原則這個目的跟手段之間我們是人權國家"},{"start":11019.878,"end":11040.598,"text":"所以说极端个案给了我们很多的警讯警示但是也不要因为极端个案去采取了欠缺周延讨论的执法的这些approach这些方式所以说下一页我们来看看保护令"},{"start":11041.619,"end":11068.165,"text":"保護令非萬能就以土城這個案例他真的不是萬能就差那最後一步但是就實際的執行保護令是相對有效的我以這位王佩玲教授也是他的這個報告是衛福部到現在你們在討論所有的保護令參採的最大宗的一個實證的研究因為他是規模比較大"},{"start":11069.085,"end":11093.938,"text":"追蹤的時間比較長但我要提醒石部長這是2010年的報告啊到現在為止我們需要更新的更全面的實證研究來support我們對於家暴案類的一些政策的考量這個實在太久了啦但是以目前大家參採的這個主要的報告告訴我們施暴者整體違反保護令的比例是四成"},{"start":11094.858,"end":11106.18,"text":"而違反保護令大洲又發生了肢體暴力的比例是19%這跟國際是差不多的換言之我的解讀保護令相對有效"},{"start":11107.438,"end":11125.251,"text":"但是極端個案當然要慎防但是這個報告更有效的告訴我們的資訊是對於那些高風險的施暴者要強化配套這才是重中之重土城這個案例就是高風險的施暴者就是他有犯罪前科還有精神疾病"},{"start":11126.051,"end":11141.359,"text":"對於被害人他施以曾經是性暴力脅迫控制跟跟蹤等等這些高風險的這些人你相對可以更精準的去鎖定他這才是我們該去下手的地方下一頁時間到了所以我"},{"start":11142.139,"end":11157.466,"text":"最後給石部長統合回應也就是我對於啟動科技設備的監控從過去我們是犯罪保全證據保全的那一個方法要擴大到前端的保護加害者我認為權衡上還是要慎重"},{"start":11160.908,"end":11182.47,"text":"保護加害者絕對要擴大但是我認為的方法是剛剛我說的實證以及研究告訴我們鎖定這些高風險的再次施暴者才是最重要的防範的核心所以不要輕易的去讓人權走回頭路因為不只是"},{"start":11183.843,"end":11200.185,"text":"防範加害者再次施暴更要保護受害者他的隱私跟他的自由權限至於其他的執行要有相關的法律要件的限制執行層面到底是衛福部可以做還是警政署來當家還是法務部還是司法院"},{"start":11200.746,"end":11218.625,"text":"到現在末中已是所以我很謝謝主席我聽說應當會有公聽會在周圓的討論那我請部長統和的回應一下我剛剛的評論我們對於高風險者的管控如何有效的精準的target這些人"},{"start":11221.328,"end":11245.766,"text":"很謝謝委員的指教我們為什麼需要一點時間再來立法因為立法的過程一定要考慮到比例原則它的必要性 適當性跟橫平性原則一定要遵守而且還要考慮到實務上的執行性 可行性怎麼樣所以我們在後續的修法的過程當中都會秉持這個原則來審慎的研議"},{"start":11247.427,"end":11267.239,"text":"特別是涉及到影響到人民權益那我剛剛講的高風險的這一群人的有效的防範是你們現在就能做而且應該優先做的我們現在針對的也是這樣我們現在在做的就是先針對在評估的時候那個高風險的評估要讓他能夠更精確更準確的可以及早的去"},{"start":11268.5,"end":11291.254,"text":"辨識出那個高風險的個案然後去針對這些去強化不論是強化暫時性保護就是不漏接辨識出這些人存在於哪裡他的行動然後有效的保護加害人我認為這樣問題釐清下來相對執行面就有比較清楚的方向好時間有限那我非常期待後續的公聽會我也會踴躍的參加謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了"},{"start":11295.956,"end":11310.59,"text":"有請廖偉祥委員發言好謝謝主席有請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":11313.878,"end":11331.308,"text":"六人好部長好這個依照家庭暴力防治法的第五條主管機關每四年應對家暴問題現況成效及需求進行調查分心對嗎對嘛那最新一期應該是什麼時候去年去年2020到2023對嗎對嘛對不對"},{"start":11335.814,"end":11347.183,"text":"好但是我跟你說你們衛福部官方網站上面的家庭暴力防治報告書目前最新版本顯示是16到19年的版本部長你知道嗎"},{"start":11348.482,"end":11369.648,"text":"你們目前顯示的是這個但是這是掛網的啦這對外公布的是這樣但是我們有一個新的版本要那為什麼你們新的沒有放上去呢已經上網了沒有我跟你講其實這就是你們顯示我很擔心的就是你們好像沒有很在意因為你是上面的那個日期寫錯其實內容上其實是有調整"},{"start":11370.968,"end":11394.68,"text":"我們再看一下好 這雖然看似是一個小問題但本席就是要表達就是說這樣看起來你們好像沒有很在意部長 我想要表達的是你可能在醫政上面你過去在健保署等等 你很專業可是你在這上面是不是應該要更加用心一點 部長希望部長可以多在意這個所謂的社政的部分 好不好會 一樣的重視"},{"start":11396.381,"end":11417.213,"text":"所以回到報告內容19年的版說成立集中派案窗口後總計受理26萬餘件的保護性或脆弱家庭的通報案件並且可以快速的篩出22%的錯誤通報及重複通報案件那且98%的案件可以24小時內完成派案評估部長認為這98%的數字是滿意的嗎"},{"start":11421.728,"end":11437.703,"text":"我們當然希望是百分之百啦你希望是百分之百好我接下來跟你講這就會發生什麼問題我們當然希望越高越好但是同樣監察院的報告當中卻點出了衛福部系統性的問題首先是通報案件爆量"},{"start":11438.243,"end":11456.25,"text":"比預估高出10倍還沒有完全到位的社工人力根本沒有辦法應付好 第二個仍然不夠清楚的分案標準是否開案的爭議以及受限的派案機制讓派案中心承受著接案時跟網絡各單位跟社政單位的爭執內耗與壓力"},{"start":11458.894,"end":11477.676,"text":"所以顯然要告訴部長的是報告書說這個高達90%好像近乎完美的派案成果完全不同所以部長認為這樣子所謂的這個報案量然後宣傳很有效以及這樣子的KPI你確定這樣的KPI是設定正確沒有問題的嗎"},{"start":11479.216,"end":11491.187,"text":"當然從這個通報案數來講我們還是得跟實際上的這個流行病學的研究的比例來看它確實還是underreport它還是有gap所以我們還是要繼續去鼓勵這個通報出來"},{"start":11496.371,"end":11518.252,"text":"求救啦就是受害者要去求救那第二個是人力的部分對 我想要跟你說的就是今天討論這個議題本身科技監控是一個方法而已我們是想要真的從根本上降低家暴以及家暴防治今天時間不夠可是我會盡量講快一點所以我要跟你說的是你這樣的KPI設定應該是有問題的"},{"start":11519.393,"end":11542.452,"text":"隨著你的宣導越多的時候你的案量會越多沒有錯但是問題是你人力不足那你怎麼辦所以你的精準識別高風險就是很重要的一環可是看起來是沒有辦法的因為現在看起來就是這個部分就是一個根本性的問題所以你連KPI如果都設定錯的情況之下這樣就會導致大家就是徒勞無功而且瞎忙"},{"start":11544.008,"end":11563.037,"text":"因為社工已經很辛苦了你如果沒有精準的分辨出高風險的時候你就會導致大家有個惡性循環所以本席認為你應該要重新檢討你的不要將通報量作為你們美化政府在這部分努力的數據通報量根本不是所謂的真正有效"},{"start":11563.857,"end":11574.072,"text":"通報量你只能夠說你宣導有效但是你沒有辦法根本上解決問題甚至還可能導致案件壓力過大讓社工要離職喔所以你應該要公布所謂高風險個案鑑別失敗率"},{"start":11577.563,"end":11601.448,"text":"還有脆弱家庭服務轉型結案後的再通報率你結案了應該是要應該是要這個到底是怎麼樣的真實數據這應該是你們真正的KPI你們真正要去關注的對吧這兩個這個指標後段的這個脆弱家庭再通報現在已經納入了那前面這個確實這個我們要回頭去檢視我們現在用的工具跟方法"},{"start":11602.288,"end":11619.905,"text":"對於這個高風險個案的鑑別的正確率如何所以這是我要告訴你們請你們要去檢討這是第一件事這還是第一部分而已我們今天剛剛一直有人說到底電子監控有沒有用我們等一下再講到電子監控第二部分剛剛講到社工"},{"start":11620.766,"end":11644.817,"text":"社工所處的情況也不容樂觀111年你們的調查說5824名社安網裡面的社工高達1188人遭受到這個口語威脅辱罵肢體傷害那高雄市的社工工會更驚爆每三天就有一名社工可能受到身體傷害惡劣的環境讓社工慌所以桃園市為例近三年社工平均離職率高達17%"},{"start":11646.698,"end":11674.004,"text":"但是脆弱家庭通報每年9500件啊余件啊所以社工的缺口連年破百所以這個跟剛剛就有一個惡性循環出生社安網的頂層設計的失敗案量預估錯誤導致案量也有可能大量的太多而且沒有精準的找到案量第二個社工在這樣高案量高暴力高壓力難以精緻處理個案的情況之下導致敏感度的鈍化"},{"start":11675.492,"end":11700.322,"text":"第三高風險的個案失敗社工就會反遭被究責甚至可能有什麼上銬啊或者是被社會的輿論壓力所以社工就會覺得說高壓低支持的情況之下選擇用腳投票就是離開這導致高離職率然後有經驗的社工大量流失新進的社工更難應對導致系統性的進一步惡化你同意吧"},{"start":11701.944,"end":11727.353,"text":"對 這個我非常同意就是對於社工我們不能夠這樣苛責以目前的這樣的工作的型態那我們也在這個未來的那個社安網2.0裡面我們去擴編這個社工的人力部長 剛剛兩個就是要告訴你現況就是這樣子所以你的KPI你的績效到底要怎麼評估你們應該要從頭從頂層設計去全方位的檢討這是第一部分接下來是保護令"},{"start":11728.433,"end":11752.731,"text":"保護令剛剛有委員說保護令很有效可是我要告訴你保護令其實是沒有什麼效因為還是發生了很多的案件所以譬如說逐年升高剛剛也有委員講說違反保護令的案件2021年可能3721到2024年變成4497如果數據沒有那麼精確有錯誤你也可以糾正我每年家暴平均可能有3300多件那其實"},{"start":11756.255,"end":11757.966,"text":"這一些保護令出來之後"},{"start":11759.164,"end":11787.601,"text":"沒有辦法及時的預警所以近三年這個加害者加害者生壓率就是只有6到7%那一樣是加報防治書但是其實也有另外一個數據說如果是檢察官生壓 申請羈押羈押率有高達七成也高於一般犯罪率所以顯示其實這個是有問題存在因為代表檢察官如果真的到法院去說要這件事這個部分我想"},{"start":11788.302,"end":11796.302,"text":"這個也可以請司法院法務部都上來在旁邊好了所以這就是一個很奇怪的部分"},{"start":11797.819,"end":11818.181,"text":"所以代表說什麼代表說這個保護令其實也可能有出現很大的漏洞所以剛我講的是不是屬實就是這樣的相關數據譬如說檢察官如果申請生壓的話核准生壓可能有到七成可是在所有的家暴案件裡面受害者想要去想要去申請這個生壓真正的比率只有6到7%剛剛應該有委員提到對不對"},{"start":11821.918,"end":11850.699,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個申請羈押率那他的數據是來自於家暴案件所有家暴案件數因為這個家暴案件數有大部分可能是用含送而非現行犯移送的也就是說他不是把人拘捕之後移送到檢察官這邊來因此這個數這個比例會比較低的原因可能是因為在這邊所以我們可能回去還要再去確認就是說以現行犯移送就是有拘捕被告到檢察官這邊的那我們的生壓率是多少"},{"start":11850.919,"end":11870.651,"text":"對嘛所以這些數據你都沒有或者是你們應該要再去確認那你怎麼可以說現在的保護令是真的好像剛剛有委員說其實是很有效的我覺得這我沒有辦法認同所以這部分請你們回去提供本席辦公室數據好嗎再來就是今天的重要的重點科技監控的部分"},{"start":11871.877,"end":11888.124,"text":"其實在場還有包含警政署警政署的代表也上來當初邱太元部長在這裡的時候我本席也質詢一樣是各部會在這裡我問每一個部會對於科技監控的態度我再問一次林園已經換了部長請問一下石部長你對於"},{"start":11889.349,"end":11915.722,"text":"科技監控在家暴裡面的科技監控這一塊甚至入法部分你的態度是什麼就是以科技的工具來強化這個對被害人的保護這個我們方向上是支持的只是在執行上如何去執行能夠兼顧到這個個人的隱私跟執行的效果這個我們必須要再好再講一次個人隱私你說是哪個部分的個人隱私就是包含這個被害"},{"start":11918.845,"end":11924.811,"text":"所有的隱私資訊或者他的被害者的個人隱私對不對對 你是擔心被害者的個人隱私對 還有他可能會不會帶來反效果這個"},{"start":11932.299,"end":11960.342,"text":"部長我跟你說啊所以你覺得隱私還有人權是一個很大的問題對不對你覺得隱私和人權是很大的問題嗎好那我想要請問一下美國是不是人權國家英國是不是人權國家法國西班牙是不是人權國家請問是不是我原提的這當然都是是那他們有沒有用電子監控重視人權的國家啦有嘛那他們有沒有用電子監控怎麼樣的去執行我們再來生就之後那你訂出這是第一個人權的我的回應啊"},{"start":11961.383,"end":11968.07,"text":"所以現在有很多 這現在也都有在直播所以我覺得人權這是一件在拖延的藉口"},{"start":11969.264,"end":11992.325,"text":"你所謂的人權這些國家都是人權國家他們也用了這個科技這是第一件事第二件事你說隱私權受害者隱私權請問我跟你說也有研究報告顯示就是你剛說隱私權還有這個生活覺得說生活被拘束好我跟你說也有報告顯示說這些被家暴的受害者認為有了電子監控之後他的生活更自在更自由"},{"start":11993.326,"end":12005.652,"text":"因為他不用擔心在被家暴如果你沒有電子清空的情況之下很多人要住進去哪裡對不對去庇護所你也點頭要去庇護所他進去庇護所他到底是跟自由還是跟不自由"},{"start":12006.943,"end":12022.668,"text":"那這就是一個很大的問題再者你的庇護所也不夠嘛你長期的庇護所也不夠嘛所以這兩個理由在本席看來是推脫的理由我剛剛也回答這是推脫的理由因為這些國家也都有在做這個事再者要用"},{"start":12023.308,"end":12040.552,"text":"我們說明其實不是每個國家這麼做那即使是在澳洲也是有事辦像您看到的這樣所以表示說這件事情的執行上確實是有爭議要小心的再來我是要跟你說不要用推脫的方式你們應該要盡速研議再來剛剛你說的這個"},{"start":12043.533,"end":12068.418,"text":"你說包含這科技監控的部分你覺得會有人權的問題啦或者是要有爭議的問題剛剛我們也討論到這個是不是被害者想要做他要知情的情況之下才會做一定要對嘛那你覺得這裡也配套完全尊重對所以不是代表他一定馬上要使用嘛所以你剛剛的這個隱私權自由權或者知情權你又打自己的臉了不是嗎"},{"start":12069.298,"end":12094.563,"text":"即使是在他同意的情形之下我們也要有妥善的配套很多在知情之下執行的政策仍然可能傷害到他個人妥善的配套所以沒關係現在你的態度是說你支持這個方向可是要妥善的配套是這個意思好那我想要請問因為這次的回答跟上次的邱部長就不太一樣邱部長表示的支持度更高好支持度更高"},{"start":12095.404,"end":12103.375,"text":"還說一個月內要跨部會這個研議但是看起來你們也只開了一次會那接下來換這個法務部你們的態度呢"},{"start":12106.318,"end":12134.887,"text":"跟委員報告那基本上這個立法目的我們是非常的認同也就是說強化對於這個被害人的保護但這個你只認同立法目的但是你沒有認同這個電子科技監控這個針對這個措施那他可能會收集到這個相關被害人他的一些資訊的部分還是資訊隱私的問題可是剛剛不是已經回答了嗎對就是我想那個他們也會有非常完整的一個研議之後那所以你的態度是支持不支持你們你們的部分"},{"start":12135.724,"end":12163.655,"text":"我們就是尊重這個衛福部他們的這個所以你是尊重衛福部只要衛福部立法你們就支持我們尊重衛福部主管機關的演繹好那請問這個司法院報告委員我們的立場是支持但我們有兩個報告第一個就是說在民事保護令裡面為確保這個遠離令裡面讓被害人有相當"},{"start":12164.835,"end":12185.731,"text":"保護他的安全這樣的科控是絕對正確的那這個科控在比例上我們要加上一些高風險的評估這樣讓法官裁量這是第一個部分那第二個部分當然一定要被害人同意那因為有兩個部分在國際的都是這樣所以這就是相對的配套了嘛對不對對"},{"start":12188.109,"end":12213.976,"text":"那就在國際上他兩個部分一個就是說叫做定點科控一個叫做隨著被害人的移動科控雙向那這個要被害人同意當然要被害人同意剛剛講過被害人完全知情的時候我們同意在這個法令這是第一步那事實上你有這個電子監控本來就是為了被害人被受害者被害人去設立的目前原理論是"},{"start":12215.976,"end":12227.317,"text":"目前年齡率是以這個住居所上班場所以及特定出入場所沒關係 這是一些技術細節啊但是你們的部分是支持嘛 對不對好 謝謝 那請問警政署"},{"start":12230.559,"end":12251.759,"text":"委員好 只要能夠減少這種家暴案件憾事的發生本署都是支持那同樣的 相關的配套措施就等待中央主管部會他們來研議 我們就配合來幫忙好 警政署支持其實我也認為是應該要因為你的人力也不可能隨時保護令出現問題的時候你衝到現場你也來不及嘛當然"},{"start":12252.579,"end":12280.946,"text":"對啊 當然所以我還是想要重申謝謝 請署長回答我還是要跟部長重申其實你也可以聽到不管是司法院或是警政署其實他們配套也滿明確的那你們到底在猶豫什麼呢我本席要告訴你們請你們盡速因為我剛剛不是只針對電子科技監控這只不過是最末端的一個問題而已包含這個電子監控的部分還有包含受害人處置的部分你們也是相對投入的資源根本不足"},{"start":12281.846,"end":12303.342,"text":"所以你說發生之後要讓這個加害人怎麼處置要讓他可以矯正他的行為這個你們都今天還沒有時間討論到所以從剛開始的你的KPI的設計到社工的出了問題所以才會說現在的漏網之語漏洞這麼大才會想到說那是不是參照國際的方式去用所謂的電子監控的技術"},{"start":12304.503,"end":12330.292,"text":"所以本席希望你們儘速今天是大體討論但是希望你們儘速研議請儘速提出修法方向而且要往這方向所謂的相關配套因為本席要提醒你們這根本就是看執政黨願不願意做執政黨看起來用這些方式在用推脫的就像當初就業服務法廢除巴士量表的時候你跟我們說上路根本來不及所以你們需要時間配套"},{"start":12331.692,"end":12358.693,"text":"立法院也給了勞動部時間配套結果到了六七個月以後去實施發現根本沒有這麼多人申請發現這樣子的制度也有加匯到非常多需要的人所以本席要說我們要盡速的推動不要用這些理由所謂的隱私權人權剛剛都已經回應過了我覺得這是一個非常拖一拖和希望立法延後的狀況這段時間有多少受害者如果又受害了"},{"start":12359.514,"end":12367.977,"text":"有多少受害者受害了 那誰要負責 誰要下台以上 謝謝謝謝廖偉祥 趙偉的發言好 我們繼續來演繹好 謝謝 接下來請陳瑩委員發言"},{"start":12387.759,"end":12389.123,"text":"麻煩請衛福部部長請衛福部時部長"},{"start":12393.877,"end":12419.743,"text":"陳委員好部長好我們今天討論這個家庭暴力防治法的修法那根據第五條的規定衛福部應該每四年對家庭暴力的問題防治現況成效與需求進行調查分析並且要定期公佈家庭暴力致死的人數各項補助及醫療支出的統計分析資料首先要請教最近一次的調查統計報告是哪一年公佈的"},{"start":12420.706,"end":12437.658,"text":"我們公佈的是2020到2023年的這個報告那已經發佈了所以是在哪一年公佈了這個資料今年今年的幾月份"},{"start":12438.544,"end":12441.927,"text":"所以我們2025年的10月公佈公佈了這個發佈了這個2020年到2023年的交情暴力防治的報告那"},{"start":12454.401,"end":12475.058,"text":"這部法令在衛福部內部的這個主政單位是社家署還是保護司保護司保護司好那事實上呢這部法從87年開始實施以來好像這個家暴的這個通報人數每年都以七八千件的比例不斷的在增加那從109年14萬9千件到113年17萬9千件"},{"start":12479.982,"end":12504.855,"text":"然後大概有5成左右都是出自枕邊人女性的部分約佔了7成而且平均都是忍受了4.2年才會通報這樣的結果其實令人是很驚訝的衛福部可不可以解釋一下這個問題到底是出在什麼樣的地方是我們法令規範不足還是執行面上的問題還是說因為"},{"start":12506.716,"end":12512.266,"text":"在整個這個社會的這個眼鏡當中大家的生活壓力都太大了"},{"start":12513.879,"end":12540.197,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們有兩個一個是說流行病學的推估它的那個可能的這個黑數還有多少那以我們現在的通報量來講呢其實是還有黑數的所以如何去去這個讓就像委員所看到呃呈現的資料這個時間上還是拖了所以應該要有更多的這個宣導跟這個讓讓大家知道這個"},{"start":12542.105,"end":12561.025,"text":"怎样的事件呢其实是符合这个家报那他能够怎么样通报出来可以得到什么样的协助所以我们一直在社区推广这方面所以部长也觉得说那个发布的时间这个报告发布的时间其实是还真的是拖了因为我这样看也慢了将近整整两年"},{"start":12561.946,"end":12586.158,"text":"所以這個部分可能在發佈的時程上你們需要再多壓縮一些再來因為各縣市政府也就是這部法的地方主管機關請教一下部長你們統計有沒有針對縣市別去分析縣市別有分縣市別再麻煩你們提供給我們因為我們這邊"},{"start":12589.455,"end":12602.549,"text":"還沒看到就是我們內部有啦那可能在這個公開的報告上面沒有呈現吧你們也有嗎這在另外一個啦在另外一個在我們的統計處"},{"start":12603.906,"end":12629.094,"text":"另外一個在另外那有公佈嗎有有有那個好那麻煩再資料提供給我那好那看起來你們有所掌握那你們可不可以講一下就是說在在這個城鄉差距是不是到底是人口比較擁擠生活壓力比較大的都會區呢家暴件數比較多呢還是說人口比較少的縣市那可能因為社工"},{"start":12629.634,"end":12650.44,"text":"及保護人力比較不足 家暴通報的案件就反而比較高到底是怎麼樣的情況 有沒有講一下從數據上面看起來六都的數據是一定是高的那特別是像新北因為它的總人口數也多所以它的通報量幾乎佔我們的全國的六分之一也就是這麼高"},{"start":12651.8,"end":12676.188,"text":"相對的比較是偏鄉的縣市我會覺得一個是他的家庭支持的系統以及他的民情可能比較純樸社區支持的系統例如說九里之間 零里之間的系統比較緊密所以他的通報量相較的也就是他的施暴的狀況是比較穩定的我們看起來是這個樣子"},{"start":12677.048,"end":12692.359,"text":"好 謝謝那其次因為你們的統計數字是以這個件數為單位那家暴往往再犯的可能是有的那所以衛福部能不能跟我們講一下說再犯的比例大概是多少"},{"start":12694.788,"end":12713.682,"text":"目前应该是说再通报就是再被通报已经进到我们的服务体系之后在服务当中又再被通报这种比例也有一定的程度所以又再被通报你们的定义是就是再次受到家暴它又通报出来"},{"start":12714.082,"end":12726.415,"text":"好不會一件被受到家暴一次通報通報兩次確認一下再通報就是但是你們要用講好再通報好那"},{"start":12728.717,"end":12756.827,"text":"家暴法裡面有一項很重要的這個作為就是要對加害人實施這個處遇計劃也就是說對於加害人實施認知教育輔導輕職教育輔導心理輔導精神治療還有戒癮治療以及其他的這個輔導跟治療那請教一下部長一般這樣的計劃大概是時間多長有沒有強制性那每年加害人接受計劃的這個輔導大概有多少件多少比例"},{"start":12757.602,"end":12777.612,"text":"好那个处愈的部分大概有戒饮戒治好这几个这个是比较我们比较重要的啦那这个我们过去的包含精神治疗包含戒饮治疗那么还有一些是像这个亲子辅导认知教育辅导等等这一些啦"},{"start":12777.972,"end":12805.885,"text":"那我们如果按照执行率来看就是应该这个以113年为例那么以这个认知辅导这边是最多大概占了85%那其次才是这个精神治疗的部分是17%好谢谢那再根据家庭暴力防治法为推动家庭暴力及性侵害的相关防治工作卫福部应设置基金目前你们基金的这个额度有多少"},{"start":12808.194,"end":12828.289,"text":"因為我們的基金大致上都是用公務預算從這個撥補的部分那因為有推動2.0就我們的社安網加緊我們一年大概20億左右那地方縣市政府的防止家暴是要自己編列預算還是你們會補助那這個補助的預算"},{"start":12831.141,"end":12849.028,"text":"但每年怎麼樣的編列還是說透過這個基金去給縣市政府原則上地方也要有自己的自由財源他們要自己編預算那有一些計劃我們就會用計劃型補助例如社會安全網那我們的補助就按照行政院規定這個50%到90%這樣的比例按照他的財力分級"},{"start":12854.15,"end":12875.531,"text":"好 那另外在這部法59條有規定移民主管機關應辦理移民業務人員防止家庭暴力的在職教育那要請教你們就是為什麼移民業務人員也要接受防止家暴教育那他們在學完之後有相關的職權去針對移民推動家暴防制業務嗎"},{"start":12877.112,"end":12897.919,"text":"移民主軟器官他會接觸到我們的新住民甚至是移工那他也有可能在他的家庭或者是他的工作場所遭到僱主或遭到家人的不法侵害所以他們有職權去推動這樣子的他基本上就是宣導還有敏感到要做通報好 那說到這裡重點來了"},{"start":12900.782,"end":12918.095,"text":"就是說當然我們也關心這個外籍的勞工朋友就我們了解的說如果都是這個雙方都是外籍勞工那他們在台灣是不是能他們在台灣其實是不能組家庭的"},{"start":12919.718,"end":12942.571,"text":"但是呢卻可以住在一起生養小孩這是他們能做的那萬一發生家暴受害的外籍勞工朋友可能他們到底能不能得到這部家庭暴力防治法的保護因為他們的小孩也有可能會被傷害我不知道你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":12943.644,"end":12965.372,"text":"對啊 只要對應該是都在我們的保護範圍啦都在你提的是移工嘛對 因為雙方都他們我講的是兩邊都是外籍的兩邊都是外籍的喔不是嫁給台灣人喔部長要不要想一下可以嗎"},{"start":12967.947,"end":12977.699,"text":"因為他們不能組家庭但是卻有家庭生活的事實那就是共居的概念"},{"start":12979.422,"end":13003.156,"text":"對 但是因為這比較特別我想今天質詢的一個心得一個很重要的我覺得是大家疏漏的地方特別請稍微多給一點時間我趕快把它講完那因為我們一年在台灣就出生這樣800個這樣的孩子那這幾年下來你們有掌握累積了多少黑虎寶寶了嗎黑虎寶寶好像"},{"start":13007.66,"end":13026.7,"text":"這個部分我們會以後再提供對你們如果你們有所掌握那我剛剛提出來的就是一個很重要的一個問題了那因為這部家庭暴力防治法對於這個勞動主管機關只有規定被家暴後的職業訓練跟就業服務的部分那因為"},{"start":13027.921,"end":13053.429,"text":"勞動部紅部長他標榜一向都非常特別關心外籍勞工朋友的權益而且台大研究已經有發表家暴的發生會降低勞動參與率也就是會導致離開職場勞動部對於職場僱主的暴力已經有安置的措施所以本席建議衛福部可能要找勞動部好好討論一下基於人道的立場協調一個部會可以去關注這個問題"},{"start":13055.1,"end":13079.529,"text":"好 那我们希望就是说今天点出这个部分看起来是有疏漏啦我们漏掉了这一块那我想就是说我们一起努力让我们就是国家的每一个家庭不要有人在黑暗中哭泣啦那我们就一起努力这样子好 谢谢我们对移工的受暴的部分我们来强化好 谢谢"},{"start":13081.938,"end":13088.961,"text":"謝謝陳穎委員發言鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接著請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請我們衛福部長請時部長還有司法院少年級家事廳廳長以及保護部的檢察司司長好"},{"start":13108.527,"end":13125.934,"text":"好 今天主要是討論有關於家暴的相關的問題那家暴案件年年增加這大家都知道的事情那麼尤其這次土城的事件呢大家非常震驚可是現在有一個事件就是說在"},{"start":13127.415,"end":13152.421,"text":"這些家暴犯尤其他們常常違反保護令甚至違反保護令之後又再繼續施暴這種比例非常非常高這種件數也非常非常多可是事實上到了在法院司法的部分像這些家暴案件不曉得是不是因為它量太多然後可能檢察官也好或者法官也好"},{"start":13152.981,"end":13174.202,"text":"是不是因為多到他見怪不怪所以像這樣的案件事實上最後被羈押的比例極低非常非常的低以111年到113年生押的也是只有佔6.7%而裁定羈押的更低"},{"start":13175.069,"end":13201.985,"text":"那另外违反保护令已经违反保护令了然后生压者的比例也低7%裁定羁押者也是占5.1%这也是我们在立法院法治局在整个的有关于这些家暴案件里面所提出来的一个问题那我们常常在这个社会也看到"},{"start":13202.845,"end":13220.361,"text":"像這種什麼旅販也不怕啦然後實在就是行為非常非常的離譜最後才會被柴地擠壓所以在這邊我想請教包含我們的廳長還有我們檢察司司長"},{"start":13223.587,"end":13250.547,"text":"這到底是什麼問題是在我們的司法體系裡面是我剛才講的嗎大家覺得這個案子塞得太多了如果通通都把他關進去這個到時候這個看守所也會大爆炸是因為這樣子嗎那這些人他被放出去之後那又常常再犯啊今天如果是真的是自己的家人或是自己的姐妹大家就會覺得為什麼不把他押起來為什麼還要讓他放出去"},{"start":13251.568,"end":13256.963,"text":"所以这到底问题在哪里可不可以先请厅长"},{"start":13260.491,"end":13281.888,"text":"報告委員 關於法官在審酌拘不拘押基本上所觸犯的法律就是叫做違反保護令罪它的法定刑是三年以下所以不是一個很高的法定刑 這是第一個第二個 違反保護令的類型很多它如果只是去接觸或騷擾 這是一種"},{"start":13283.809,"end":13306.675,"text":"沒有 這是違反保護令之後又去施暴是不是應該立刻被押起來現在我們在討論那個鞭刑我覺得像這種才應該給他鞭刑啊怎麼家暴跑去打自己的小孩 打自己的太太家暴成性 這種才應該鞭刑啊讓他說要鞭刑 自己看一看被打是什麼樣的感覺"},{"start":13309.179,"end":13331.614,"text":"那麼這一部分因為我們的交叛法有明定反覆實施是可以羈押所以現在我們同步促進這種教育訓練跟溝通協調所以下個月刑事廳長跟我親自會跟所有處理這樣的法官來做線上溝通這是第一部分其他我是不是請我們那個調辦室的黃法官"},{"start":13334.814,"end":13359.244,"text":"那關於那個羈押的部分的話其實目前為止如果說檢察官依照這個違反那個家暴的那個案件來申請羈押我們目前的數據來講就今年的部分的話其實已經有高達70.39%那其實在以往的話甚至有到八成只要檢察官針對這個違反家暴案件來進行生壓的話法官這個部分的話其實會做一個全盤的評估那這部分的生壓率其實是不低的"},{"start":13359.784,"end":13386.949,"text":"其實要解釋啊是因為法官是因為檢察官沒生壓是吧這就是像我們在講那個15萬那個太子集團15萬交保然後當這個左院長震怒了之後呢那個北院趕快發一個新聞稿說不是我們這個是檢察官讓他交保的所以你的意思說問題不在你不在你們就是這邊法官的話不在在法官的這邊是要做一個補充說明那來我們那個"},{"start":13389.009,"end":13406.736,"text":"檢察司司長那就在你們了跟委員報告那當然羈押就是有一定的法定要件那如果符合羈押的要件的話我想檢察官都會依法來申請羈押那剛才也跟前面委員有報告過就說這個羈押的比率那他的母數是來自於所有的違反家暴"},{"start":13407.196,"end":13433.056,"text":"家暴的案件那違反家暴案件他有一部分是用函送也就是說不是拘捕現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那如果是以現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那檢察官認為說有符合加藥件的話他就會申請羈押那這個比例上可能會是不一樣的那有關這個數據我想我們回去再去做比較詳細的確認之後我希望其實在我們社會上常常假如我今天是施暴的是"},{"start":13434.076,"end":13454.813,"text":"被施暴者是名人 其實都比較容易被羈押社會關注嘛 而且會羈押很久可是像這種就是一般的深頭小民我們常常會看到 或者我們自己也會也會面臨到這樣的這種選民的這個申訴啊求速無門啊 怕得要死啊然後"},{"start":13455.393,"end":13471.028,"text":"然後一再的違反這個保護令然後還會施暴還會就是對自己的孩子對自己尤其為什麼我們覺得這個深惡痛絕因為通常都是一個家庭裡面或者強者然後他去施暴那些弱者"},{"start":13471.808,"end":13492.934,"text":"不管是自己的老婆也好 這個體力比較小比較沒有體力的 或者小孩子所以我覺得在某一個程度那麼我們有羈押的這樣的一個工具應該去做 好不好最後一點點時間 不好意思 部長請教一下因為呢 這個"},{"start":13495.756,"end":13522.17,"text":"總統公佈了說要成立兒童及家庭署那我想請問一下因為這個呢外界質疑說這不過呢只是改名這改一個名字原來的社家署他把它併一下你們其他的私的業務然後就變成兒童及家庭署是不是這樣子不是不是那個社會及家庭署他還是留著那只是他的整個業務也會重整"},{"start":13522.87,"end":13537.826,"text":"那這個兒童專責是新的署完全新的署那你們要完全一個不是原來的社家署的改名而已不是不是是把社家署裡面的兒童家庭業務移出來"},{"start":13538.707,"end":13563.349,"text":"那社家署还是在但是我们会做任务的重组比如说会把一些长照的业务做整合那这个是新的一个儿少级家庭支持署是把儿童的业务把它整并起来所以他会着眼点是在对于儿童的保护不止 儿童的健康保护福利这些都会把它照顾"},{"start":13564.21,"end":13569.257,"text":"整合在一個新的 這個我們願意支持全新的再請委員支持"},{"start":13582.645,"end":13597.369,"text":"接下來請吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員不在請沈發慧委員沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員不在請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請部長"},{"start":13607.782,"end":13635.248,"text":"黃委員好 部長好部長今天討論這個家庭暴力防治法那我先想請教就是說我們之前這個社會案件就是家暴然後這個被害人都已經申請保護令那還是遭到這個殺害那我想請教就是說經過這幾個月那衛福部針對這一部分你們有沒有什麼更精進的方式尤其是在這個申請保護令的這樣的一個空窗期"},{"start":13635.968,"end":13661.497,"text":"那是有什么样精进的方式跟委员这是两个一个是如何去缩短这个保护令的这个空窗期一个是有即使是发了这个保护令但是如何去强化这个保护的措施这个是两件事情那以缩短这个空窗期核发这个保护令的这个空窗期这个期间我们去加快怎么样"},{"start":13661.997,"end":13676.967,"text":"当然我们保护令有这个通常保护令跟暂时跟紧急那所以先去这个强化这个高风险个案的辨识强化这个评估工具然后能够减去更完整就是由地方的"},{"start":13677.952,"end":13703.36,"text":"对 透过教育训练让这个地方的警 这个开始要第一个应该还是警察或者是我们的社工人员都有可能那去给他们提高他们的这个教育训练那么强化这个评估高风险评估的还有一些资料证据的收集这样的话能够让这个检察官法官容易快速的裁量所以这个是第一个措施"},{"start":13703.88,"end":13729.989,"text":"那第二个当然是说即使是还没有或者是已经核发保护令了那还是要能够让他有多一层的保护所以我们会强力的去辅导或者是让被害人去使用我们有一个110的"},{"start":13732.33,"end":13756.582,"text":"視訊APP你說那個聯到警政單位對警政單位當有任何的狀況的時候他可以及時的求援來增加這個保護的措施所以現在目前所有被害者或是有申請保護令的他現在都有下載我們都會告訴他有這個資訊來協助他下載的狀況是多少你知道嗎下載的狀況我們看看"},{"start":13757.15,"end":13775.895,"text":"原則上還是要就個案來認定也就是說被害人經過社工輔導他認為有必要他就會下載那實際上其實就剛剛部長講的其實有一些狀況就是確實這個加害者他是可能有精神疾病或者是他真的就這個"},{"start":13778.856,"end":13795.049,"text":"確實就是真的很危險的啦那有時候家人或是什麼講也講不聽那我希望說就這些就是說你們在第一時間可能警政單位或者是這個被害者他可能第一時間就會直接打給這個派出所"},{"start":13795.789,"end":13822.672,"text":"就是派出所的警員可能會第一時間到現場那有時候第一時間到現場可能問一問問完之後也許他會覺得說好像不是那麼嚴重可能就沒有做後續的一個處置所以我希望就是說針對這一部分譬如說他原本可能就有一些精神狀況有一些精神疾病有一些精神狀況我覺得這個可能還需要再加強"},{"start":13823.913,"end":13848.941,"text":"就是那个横向的联系就比如说我们有一些是像这个九药瘾的他的这个强化个案或者是精神病病人在社区的高风险个案那这些我们如何去强化这个横向让他知道说这个不只是在这边做社区的一些治疗同时他又是家暴的这个加害人"},{"start":13849.801,"end":13866.827,"text":"那這樣可能可以提升這個介入的措施那我想請教就是剛剛有講就是申請這個保護令可能一般保護令也需要有一段時間對不對那通常的時間差不多多久以目前大概50幾天52天左右那有辦法這個時間再縮短嗎"},{"start":13868.735,"end":13893.725,"text":"因為現在的案量上確實也是不少所以我們現在是比較強化去說找出那個真正高風險要快的那一塊不然全部都加快反而分散了這個所有的這個業務那不見得能夠保護到就是你把那個52天縮短那倒不如把那個高風險個案真正的達到它縮短就好"},{"start":13895.666,"end":13912.339,"text":"所以如果是这样子的话我觉得可能你们评估这方面可能还要再强化再落实要不然有时候你觉得说他可能不是那种高风险可是也许他是潜在可能潜在可是你一时间可能没办法发现的那一种"},{"start":13913.539,"end":13931.666,"text":"那另外就是說我們今天有一些委員有特別提到就是說用電子監控的方式那也有特別提到說也許用電子監控會不會另外被害人的一些隱私或權益可能也會受損那我想請教部長針對這部分你們有什麼樣的"},{"start":13933.687,"end":13946.373,"text":"你們要怎麼去因應那未來如果是朝著這個方向去進行的話那又不讓這個被害者的這個隱私可能就是揭露或暴露那你們要怎麼去做"},{"start":13947.931,"end":13973.662,"text":"这个确实有很多需要考虑的地方从这个执行上的适当性必要性横平性还有可行性上我们都需要去讨论到因为这个毕竟是会侵犯到这个人权个人的隐私他的整个日常生活都被监控这个在执行上确实我们要有各项的好的"},{"start":13975.322,"end":13996.55,"text":"都考量到了才比較合適另外部長我再請教就是說你剛剛有特別提到我們現在就有連結110的APP我想請教就是如果是大人也許他有手機如果小孩他沒有手機的話你們會怎麼去做一些保護"},{"start":13998.274,"end":14023.994,"text":"孩子的部分孩子目前对他确实是有的是没有手机的是那你们会怎么去处理这个我们再研究看看对孩子的部分怎么来强化就是你刚刚讲的这个APP是针对因为如果跟他的家人在一起是比较没有问题可是他可能要去上学或者是他也是这个国小他可以自己"},{"start":14024.654,"end":14042.887,"text":"去學校或者是 對那這個部分我覺得你們應該要去思考一下針對他也許沒有手機或者是他你們要怎麼去針對這一群人去做保護今天的修法也有委員的案子是去強化教育的部分"},{"start":14044.468,"end":14066.541,"text":"在學校的教育讓他們理解這些家暴的事件怎麼保護自己等等這些加入到這個教育是需要我們是支持的但是如何再強化更主動性的保護那我們來研究好 謝謝我們希望不要有再下一次的這樣的一個傷害好 謝謝"},{"start":14075.714,"end":14093.584,"text":"好接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那是不是有交換了嗎好那接下來請林淑芬委員發言好謝謝主席是不是請我們部長有請石部長還有這個法務部"},{"start":14104.787,"end":14105.948,"text":"法務部代表其實是因為打亂了我的質詢的順序不過我還是先談這個題目好了因為我今天看了各個部會四份的報告對於有委員提案修加暴房治法第61條"},{"start":14129.878,"end":14132.88,"text":"大家都沒有任何的意見沒有表示任何意見只有獨獨衛福部認為說不妥所以叫我們提案人叫立法院說再審酌一下部長你們認為不妥那剛才也有很多立委質詢我聽了一個早上大家都問你們說為什麼這個積壓的比例這麼低為什麼個案數發生數跟積壓率會不成比"},{"start":14160.259,"end":14175.647,"text":"那司長這個法務部我們檢察司司長也講了很多遍了但司長還有司法院你們都沒有表示意見我來告訴你你知道刑事訴訟法裡面有一條霸王條款嗎部長 司長為什麼羈押的比例這麼低因羈押而未羈押違反保護令罪"},{"start":14188.215,"end":14206.897,"text":"它的二值在哪裡保護令的類型通常都已經是為國家和法律所禁止的事項了它已經違法一次了那經由違法一次國家發放這個保護令合法了"},{"start":14207.558,"end":14231.945,"text":"是再告訴你一次等於是第二次的告知相對人法律不允許你做這一些事情可是行為人對於國家特別再一次告知的法律禁止事項他無動於衷 無視於法令的存在又再一次的違反法令"},{"start":14232.725,"end":14256.096,"text":"所以這種人是顯然法治意識極為淡薄所以在這種狀況裡面我們再告知他兩次以後他還是要再違法所以他會 我們的家暴防治法裡面說他違反保護令罪 刑責多少"},{"start":14257.563,"end":14280.978,"text":"刑責多少 三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款 司長你來說 法務部三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款導致於法官不會裁 或者是檢察官最後就放棄了你看還要打小報告 你們今天整個早上都沒有人說 也沒有講"},{"start":14282.045,"end":14294.617,"text":"就是他的那個法定刑事三年以下的罪名對那原則上刑事訴訟法規定是原則上是不得好啦是給你打pass了你們都沒有講重點"},{"start":14297.878,"end":14324.9,"text":"法王條款就是來自於刑事訴訟法第114條的規定羈押的被告有下列的情形之一者如經拒保申請停止羈押不得駁回當事人只要去申請我們要拒保不要羈押你的法官一律不准駁回"},{"start":14327.176,"end":14344.184,"text":"所以三年以下其中一款哪一種狀況是一定要給他交保不可以羈押第一款所犯最重本行為三年以下的有期徒刑拘役或專科罰金的罪者"},{"start":14347.031,"end":14372.628,"text":"所以你這一條法律家暴房治罪就是三零以下一律要交保但是他有一個但書但書就是累犯有犯罪的習慣的假釋中更犯罪或依第100條之一的一項之一的這個羈押者不在此限所以後來有裁定可以羈押的都是累犯"},{"start":14374.784,"end":14398.505,"text":"這樣你聽到沒有 有裁定羈押的都是累犯啦只要不是累犯 通常都一定要符合霸王條款的規定 一定要准他交保怎麼羈押 法律真正的問題在這裡 沒錯你今天你的報告再跟大家說這條不要重演啦 不要重演啦 不能再提高啦"},{"start":14400.65,"end":14416.245,"text":"你知道問題在哪裡嗎我們主要還是要尊重在這個立法過程當中這個法官的裁量權法官沒有裁量權因為罷網條款在那裡土城那一個案子是累犯嗎土城那個是累犯嗎不是"},{"start":14417.659,"end":14430.45,"text":"在信義區那個殺了那個女孩在停車場殺女孩那個是累犯嗎那一個是法官有可能去認定為有犯罪習慣的嗎他們都第一次他怎麼羈押沒有辦法羈押所以我今天講說"},{"start":14439.363,"end":14454.05,"text":"我們 我知道衛福部不是法律刑事訴訟法的專業我們衛環的委員也沒有人是刑事訴訟法的專業提案的委員也沒有人知道這個霸王條款"},{"start":14455.339,"end":14483.98,"text":"可是你法務部 你司法院對於委員提案 你沒有表示任何意見你們也不知道說真正的結構性問題為什麼沒有裁定羈押其實是來自於霸王條款所以違反保護令罪的人數這麼多裁定羈押的比例這麼低有時候不是因為檢察官意識不夠不是因為法官搞不清楚而已 不是"},{"start":14485.128,"end":14514.488,"text":"即便他搞得清楚也押不成押不成所以在這裡我們你知道普通傷害罪普通傷害罪連普通的傷害罪都五年以下的有期徒刑了我們這個違反法令所不許的第一次第二次再告誡你不可以合法的保護令了再告誡你你仍然還要違法而這樣的違法竟然只比"},{"start":14515.978,"end":14536.246,"text":"還比普通傷害罪還要輕所以嘛 所以這種狀況裡面壓得成嗎 壓不成壓不成 馬上交保出來就殺人土城 信義區 信義計劃區 信義區裡面就是這個樣子所以在這種狀況啊"},{"start":14539.229,"end":14555.546,"text":"在這種狀況是法律上你第61條非修不可我也提出了一個我就提出這一條的修正可是這樣不夠耶這個司法院司法院的加害者處遇計畫"},{"start":14558.723,"end":14584.354,"text":"你這種犯罪行為有時候就人格有問題生活上他有他的這個結構上的問題那大家都知道我們家暴防治法裡面最終還有一個對要對加害者你其實要怎麼樣治療他要提出加害者的處遇計畫可是為什麼法院的裁定率幾乎沒有為什麼"},{"start":14585.834,"end":14613.05,"text":"欸 司法院為什麼加害者處遇計畫幾乎都沒有法院主動裁核的 為什麼為什麼 裁定的處遇計畫為什麼這麼低 更低這些風險高的那他們不是更應該要去給他治療嗎加害者的處遇計畫不是更重要嗎"},{"start":14616.009,"end":14622.013,"text":"來 為什麼為什麼你們法官主動去裁定的裁合的處遇計畫這麼低 為什麼"},{"start":14625.623,"end":14649.314,"text":"報告委員現在有三個部分來報告第一部分是這個一申請後法官啟動職權的部分必須先收集你這個不要再講這些了啦我跟你講你會叫地方政府先去評估啦叫社工去評估啦然後再送上來啦那個都是地方政府送上來你們去採的地方政府"},{"start":14651.895,"end":14667.461,"text":"把責任可處理計畫的可行性與否交給地方政府而地方政府評估完以後你們認為這麼不要了算了都沒有法官主動去裁的為什麼你知道嗎因為大家都知道法官是有績效的你知道法官從事務分配制度上來看完成一個計畫你知道要花多長的時間嗎評估要拖多久嗎"},{"start":14679.546,"end":14690.863,"text":"當你結案的時候 你完成了一個保護那個加害者處理計畫的結案你核定 然後評估結案 五個月 六個月 半年"},{"start":14692.281,"end":14720.421,"text":"可是呢這麼幾個月人家法院的法官還有績效評比人家結一個案子是要可能幾天一個月你處理一個加害者處遇計畫你要拖這麼久哪一個法官願意主動的去提出這種計畫所以你們司法院對於加害者處遇計畫如果有法官願意提出來你們在制度面幫了他什麼"},{"start":14721.769,"end":14744.596,"text":"你沒有幫法官解決這個績效的問題案子 結案的速度這麼慢的問題你在事務分配上 你要不要跟他講你完成一個處理計畫 我要減少你多少的分案你有獎勵的機制嗎 沒有所以主動去做這件事 法官不是傻的嘛"},{"start":14746.409,"end":14768.025,"text":"報告委員現在我們已經啟動很久很多年了跟衛務部協商後以後這個縣市政府的衛生局跟社會局他會派有一組鑑定人員到法院我現在在問你事務性分配如果要去處理一個這個加害者處於計劃的法官那他可不可以減分案可不可以"},{"start":14771.206,"end":14786.654,"text":"是 那個目前每個法院的法官會議裡面有一部分是有這樣的一個獎勵方案但是呢一部分委員說的這個鑑定其實現在都一個月內就可以鑑定出來我們在講評估啦 不是鑑定我們在講加害者處遇計畫"},{"start":14791.736,"end":14808.919,"text":"你要去評估這個加害者的人格以外你要評估他的經濟能力以外你還要再去評估說他對他的家庭可能的衝擊是什麼而這樣的治療會造成他家庭衝擊是什麼家人還需要哪些資源你覺得每一件都通通一個月可以完成"},{"start":14810.576,"end":14824.269,"text":"這分兩部分 剛剛委員說明的部分會請加防中心去做一個評估你覺得社工 地方政府社工多如牛毛每天吃飽陰影都去幫你換衣做這些事情都須交代須做喔當然當然 沒錯 市長有辦法一個月保護師市長有辦法一個月就完成了嗎每一個縣市政府一個月就完成這個評估了嗎就提出計畫了嗎的確要看個案"},{"start":14834.018,"end":14840.444,"text":"對嘛所以你司法院今天是什麼單位來少家廳我是庭長鍾忠林你廳長喔我報告一下數據我們依職權跟申請的今年一到八月有28.01%比去年整年只有23.71%我想這小小的進步是我們"},{"start":14857.961,"end":14859.665,"text":"小小的進步不要再說了我現在不說這個了你不要說這個了我要跟你說的是制度面"},{"start":14865.371,"end":14886.546,"text":"你國民法官 若是要交付國民法官審查的法官從交付開始到判決確定為止 折抵實踐 折抵事件我們這種家暴人 家害者的處遇計畫你知道攸關到一整個家庭 攸關到人格上的或是心理上的治療"},{"start":14889.017,"end":14903.223,"text":"發官要做認證的你敢不願意讓他獎勵機制回去檢討這個制度面可以嗎有一些法院是有補修制度我們整體來研擬一些建議我今天講的重點都一句就不講高檢署"},{"start":14909.878,"end":14930.187,"text":"高檢署在8月8號發布新聞稿然後認為說監控加害人與違反保護令時同步警示被害人然後這個降低受害風險所以妥善的規劃科技設備是可行的你們是這樣講的 高檢署"},{"start":14931.067,"end":14954.424,"text":"高檢署法學研究中心他也講了西班牙制度也講了法國制度那請問這個衛福部司法院法務部警政署8月6號我們這個委員會也排了一個專案報告8月15號接續在衛福部召開精進加暴案件司法程序延伸會議你們的重點還有後續有沒有繼續討論你們的那個會議的重點結論是什麼"},{"start":14962.082,"end":14974.862,"text":"就今天的电子监控的部分相关的部会认为这个方向可行但是有关的一些细节跟配套你这千篇一律的回答千篇一律的回答"},{"start":14975.723,"end":14995.12,"text":"立法院法治局有一個加暴加害人科技設備監控制度比較嚴細西班牙大家都知道做這個科技監控的時候重點是你要對危害程度危險程度先做這個風險評估嘛那西班牙警察呢他們的危險評估工具叫"},{"start":14996.061,"end":15014.666,"text":"villain 他的系統他攻擊被害人的家庭暴力使用來評估家暴受害者遭受同一個加害人再度威脅的可能性所以他們把家暴威脅分為可忽略低的 中的 高的 極端的然後司法機關再去參採這個危險評估然後去決定警察警力資源的調派所以他們只針對高風險還有極端風險的個案去配"},{"start":15024.488,"end":15032.746,"text":"配置這個科科控的這個監控的設備所以在這裡面呢所以這個"},{"start":15034.653,"end":15057.439,"text":"我剛剛講的立法院他們講了幾個想法第一個就是說 主管機關經研商檢討認為司法實務上在評估保護令合法還有加害人羈押時檢方多有困難於短時間內取得完整的個案的資料導致影響判斷的情勢那衛福部就說好那我們會去完善檢方資訊取得的管道"},{"start":15058.439,"end":15081.494,"text":"但是呢你們說要去建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制然後你們也說要去促成申請羈押標準的統一性那我認為是你們要給警方資訊取得的管道了OK了但是申請羈押的這一個標準的統一性我也認為他已經在我要修61條單修61條把刑度從3年提高到5年的時候某一個程度也可以適當的解決了"},{"start":15088.439,"end":15116.167,"text":"但是唯獨建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制你要承諾了這一個是最困難的你知道一個AI殺人事件嗎就是因為錯誤的評估了這個風險導致風險評估的錯誤而而有一條人命被殺掉你知道嗎 有誰知道都沒有人知道"},{"start":15118.649,"end":15133.159,"text":"好來因為西班牙國家警察危險評估工具叫VOHEN他用自動化的技術去建置了家庭暴力的風險評估機制但是BBC曾經在今年的4月22"},{"start":15135.2,"end":15159.947,"text":"報導指出因為演算法失靈的代價西班牙的VOH的系統誤判了家暴的風險斷送了一條寶貴的人命曾經遭前夫家暴的西班牙女子莉娜在一次被威脅的時候向警察報案遭警方用AI的系統VOH判定為中度危險"},{"start":15161.167,"end":15173.924,"text":"然後三個禮拜以後他就被前夫殺害了引發了民眾對於風險評估這個AI系統的保護能力的質疑你們準備怎麼做"},{"start":15176.308,"end":15193.2,"text":"透過AI的確它可以增進那個案件的處理但是還是不可忽略我們在你們有足夠的人力嗎如果大量的人要來判定風險了一次幾千個而且一直累積每次都一直新增"},{"start":15193.88,"end":15214.931,"text":"每次你們要怎麼樣不是透過自動化的AI而是靠人工你有足夠的人工去判定風險嗎目前我們在這個親密關係暴力裡頭採的是替打量表那就是在第一線由社工由這個警察以及這個醫事人員在第一線接觸被害你的替打量表只有一項啦"},{"start":15215.711,"end":15235.425,"text":"只有對警察社工醫事人員對本案的重要記錄或相關評估意見的註記你們問的問題是說請問你是否願意警政介入協助約制對方唯一的議題問受害者你願不願意警政來介入啊願意或不願意理由是什麼就這樣子而已"},{"start":15236.705,"end":15264.031,"text":"這樣子叫做足夠以來判斷風險嗎它有一個替打量表的8分5分以上就會進到我們的高危機所以這個部分是委員可能這個部分我們可以再加強它是用分數來做決定所以它也有可以做手動你覺得這個東西是足夠了嗎因為其實人家有教授講你們這些把這些量表然後靠著量表即便是手動"},{"start":15265.211,"end":15292.883,"text":"然後就要去判定風險其實是就跟他們現在AI做的一樣因為就填量表然後量表你從AI電腦幫你看幾分變成人幫你算幾分然後加上你最後一題所以我在講你對風險評估的手段和工具這是最核心可能你們都沒有認真想過所以今天在這裡就講說他山之石可以攻錯"},{"start":15294.437,"end":15322.384,"text":"曾經西班牙這樣子大家講法國法國是跟西班牙差不多但是你們評估風險的級別你們真的我光是問你們就過去的這些家庭暴力罪案違反保護令罪的整體案件數你有盤點出高風險和極端風險的比例和案件數了嗎有嗎有數據嗎有7%7%到10%左右對好7%所以我們今天在講好那到底"},{"start":15323.224,"end":15344.826,"text":"電子監控有沒有效有沒有效科技監控防逃是來自於當初交給高檢署有一個科控中心EMC在這種狀況裡面科控設備使用率很低為什麼法務部為什麼為什麼就犯罪防逃使用率就這麼低為什麼"},{"start":15348.204,"end":15368.491,"text":"因為那個行送法116號之二修訂以後那可能大家對於這個科控的這個執行的認知沒有那麼的普遍所以後來我們也強化不要講這些 使用率有多低你知道嗎我們目前使用率有提升提升到幾套現在一共幾套在使用"},{"start":15369.667,"end":15373.71,"text":"這個數據我OK你們一共才買了1100套就加廠商送了100套現在正在執行的有33案有57套使用率5.16%那為什麼會這麼低呢這個審計部審計部指出設備使用率低的缺失以後你們有去了解原因嗎因為媒體有報導媒體是這樣講的"},{"start":15398.889,"end":15407.395,"text":"因為當時要看這個科控的這個效果2023年剿政署在明德外溢間試辦了一個電子手環計畫為了防脫逃嘛就讓那個外溢間都回家嘛然後再返間嘛所以今年5月的時候就示範了一個計畫結果發現5月的時候有一個帶電子手環返家探視的受刑人直接破壞電子手環逃逸藏匿"},{"start":15428.351,"end":15449.763,"text":"當然後來就把他抓回來了 但是可以看出來科控可以節省跟監人力 但是需要大量的監控人力否則無法及時發現 被監控的對象還可以逃之夭夭也就是說要隨時掌握電子腳療的訊號 對司法人力是很沉重的負擔"},{"start":15450.723,"end":15476.964,"text":"加上法官对设备信心不足以上这里我想要所讲都是媒体的报道媒体的报道来他说法官对设备信心不足也忧心警讯号不时响起生活上将要跟被告绑在一起所以科控的使用率偏低甚至有的法官画地制限因为法官必须要随时紧盯手机不论几点"},{"start":15477.685,"end":15506.543,"text":"只要收到被限制出海的被告靠近海邊的告警訊息就必須法官就要跟警方聯繫查處此外有一些被告訊號不佳法官也要迅速的下指令法官的生活要跟被告綁在一起24小時都可能會收到通報心理壓力也很大所以我們也知道法官負擔得起嗎"},{"start":15507.403,"end":15517.293,"text":"司法院法官如果這個只是幾十件或者這個犯罪人可是如果家暴的家進來誰要承擔這個責任24小時那誰要負責呢誰要負責"},{"start":15523.865,"end":15540.097,"text":"被告的佩戴或裝置設備更換人品告警次數異常你知道有多異常嗎曾經曾經有一個個案開案從7月13號開案到10月10號不到100天然後呢告警次數11610次11610次誰要負責司法人力誰要負責"},{"start":15550.512,"end":15570.434,"text":"林委員不好意思喔因為這個是不是可以請會後行政機關到林委員辦公室這個不是喔這大家都要知道提案的委員也必須要知道啊提供給委員會然後詳細其他細節也請你們到那個林委員辦公室然後你剛剛相關林委員的數據請提供本委員會的我是要講說這有可能變成狼來了"},{"start":15571.235,"end":15584.121,"text":"因為你以為戴了這個很安全結果經常的告警訊息很多然後沒有電的啦 收訊不良的啦然後真的在破壞 試圖破壞你無從分辨 救了以後你可能司法人力會覺得 啊 這又來了一次 兩次 三次 狼來了然後就疏忽了 這個責任誰要擔待啊來 你講一下"},{"start":15594.304,"end":15615.923,"text":"首先跟委員澄清一下關於委員剛剛的數據就我們目前那個科控部分的那個數據部分開案的部分的話在今年的部分院方已經有268件這部分因為我們之前已經有宣導過那檢方這部分有166件然後就結案的部分的話院方這邊有87件然後檢方有128件我再問你說法官啦對法官和示範人力有辦法負荷嗎"},{"start":15617.945,"end":15632.456,"text":"這個部分的話我們會再做宣導這個是犯罪違法防逃的科控現在講家暴房子進來高檢署要負責嗎EMC誰要負責還是警察警政署誰要負責24小時監控喔"},{"start":15636.223,"end":15660.346,"text":"那個 誰要負責 保護令的這個所謂的科控跟那個刑事訴訟的科控是不一樣我知道你們意思是說不用盯著螢幕看大概兩個距離內就會嗶嗶嗶了他這個建制可能必須要再去做妥善的這個規劃這個東西 一嗶嗶嗶的時候法官需不需要介入一嗶嗶嗶的時候警察要介入一定要 法官要不要介入"},{"start":15661.813,"end":15681.062,"text":"現在的目前的對阿如果防這個家暴的科控BBB就是已經違反家暴令靠近了是檢察官還是法官要介入好先這樣子吧這個淑芬委員的質詢都可以跑完一個超慢跑謝謝好接下來謝謝謝謝提醒請楊藥委員發言"},{"start":15696.63,"end":15714.75,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下石部長請石部長央委員好部長好 部長我們今天處理就是有關家庭暴力防治法的部分修正草案"},{"start":15717.594,"end":15745.269,"text":"只要有關刑罰的東西呢都必須要把握住罪跟刑必須要相當像剛剛林淑芬委員講到的像這個我倒是沒有注意到就是違反家暴令的刑責比傷害罪輕這個顯然是有問題的因為家暴令的核發"},{"start":15746.65,"end":15773.78,"text":"通常是先有傷害才有合法通常不是全部不過通常只是因為被害人可能都是家庭裡面的成員所以他沒有直接提出刑事訴訟法的告訴是這樣子所以我覺得這個在修法的時候你們應該要贊同的就是刑度把它"},{"start":15774.619,"end":15803.645,"text":"把他拉到最少跟傷害罪一樣是合理的部長我請教一下就是說國內有學者研究指出我們在核發民事保護令的案件中家暴者假如有犯罪前科精神疾病或者是對被害人有嚴重的肢體暴力也就是說有暴力形象的人性暴力脅迫控制"},{"start":15804.639,"end":15830.772,"text":"跟監有上訴這種類型的家暴令的案件其實就是再犯率或者是違反保護令的情況會比較顯著我想要請教一下就是對於這種情形你們有沒有什麼措施"},{"start":15832.25,"end":15861.144,"text":"特別的措施來達到有效的對加害被害人的保護有沒有跟委員報告這大概分兩段一段有這些評估可能會提供給檢察官那麼作為在核發保護令的時候是不是要先暫時或者是用暫時保護令或者是緊急保護令的方式來執行來說短這個空窗期的這是一個用途"},{"start":15861.744,"end":15881.566,"text":"那當然第二個呢也藉這個評估的結果如果這些情形的話那當然就要更強化比如說我們就會提供有那個110視訊的報案的APP那麼教導這個被害人那如何適當的保護自己及時的求援等等這些的"},{"start":15881.946,"end":15900.081,"text":"那這個可能就是有關宣傳的部分還是必須要對 要多宣傳還有對第一線人員的教育因為我們就有一些制度跟措施可能需要用的人並不知道那這個就政府的責任 好不好"},{"start":15901.89,"end":15929.491,"text":"我看大家大概對於家庭暴力的加害者加裝相關的科技設備監控大概還滿一致性的就是這個可以有效的防止我這邊有一個數據是澳洲的研究澳洲假如佩戴電子腳鐐的家暴者一年內再犯"},{"start":15930.922,"end":15958.732,"text":"家暴罪行的機率降低了三成那我第一個問題想要先請教一下部長你覺得加裝電子腳療然後降低三成這個是表示科技監控是有效的還是效果可能沒有像我們想像中那麼好降低三成嗎"},{"start":15961.157,"end":15987.418,"text":"這個報告我沒有仔細的看過啦我不曉得他這個其實我也沒有我這個問題是臨時在這裡才想到的就是說三成到底算不算是有效嚇阻像我就不覺得因為我們要算嘛就是說沒有加裝電子腳療的"},{"start":15989.195,"end":16008.814,"text":"可能他也會他受了受了保護令的拘束他可能可能本來也會降低那加了電子腳療降低三成降低三成可能也不算是很有效那我還是那個觀念就是很多"},{"start":16011.667,"end":16037.555,"text":"很多措施的推動它並不能直接阻止遺憾的發生這個還是必須要透過長期的家庭溝通或者怎麼樣這個問題我是剛剛才想到要問的因為我的問題是在底下我的問題是這樣子就是說"},{"start":16040.701,"end":16040.822,"text":"就是說"},{"start":16042.802,"end":16070.639,"text":"像西班牙 法國他們也都已經把應該世界各國有很多把家暴案件導入科技監控了而且是雙向的就是可能不只是像電子佼佼可能也可以像是我們當初部長有參與整個COVID-19的防疫過程可能像我們當初那種社群APP"},{"start":16072.664,"end":16097.959,"text":"很多國家大概都已經有導入就是說假如有接近在監控中心也會發出警告並可以發出求救的訊號提升被害人的保護的安全保護對於家暴者"},{"start":16099.861,"end":16117.833,"text":"的雙向監控被害人也可以知道加害者的動態有沒有接近當然不是說他到哪裡他都知道就是有沒有接近自己他會知道這個衛福部應該是會贊成對不對"},{"start":16122.936,"end":16146.282,"text":"應該是這樣講如果是定點這個像監控有兩種一種是定點一種是移動式監控以我們過去執行這個COVID-19的經驗來講定點的準確率是高啦就是你就被在隔離個處鎖然後定在那個地方如果你這個訊號有移出我們就會打電話確認你在哪裡這個執行上應該是比較沒有問題"},{"start":16147.142,"end":16153.846,"text":"但是這種移動式的在剛剛您提到那個社群APP那個那個錯誤率還蠻高的當時候在執行那個Force Along是蠻高的因為這個應該是我還是要講啦"},{"start":16164.171,"end":16187.83,"text":"當然我們對於家庭暴力的防治必須要很盡心可是罪行還是要相當因為我看電子腳療通常是用於防止逃亡目前是用防止逃最主要是這樣子那假如說要把它加在"},{"start":16191.058,"end":16199.988,"text":"家庭暴力的加害人會不會過度我這邊沒有立場會不會過度 我覺得"},{"start":16201.738,"end":16226.921,"text":"大家應該要想一想我們等到足調的時候大家好好討論那當然最好的方式可能就是我們看怎麼精進當初COVID-19的經驗做出單項的警示三項可能跟司法單位的三項的監控這樣子應該是最好的"},{"start":16227.741,"end":16251.027,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員發言接下來請先宣告一下那個便當發下去我怕大家太辛苦大家可以邊吃那接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席麻煩石部長請石部長"},{"start":16256.539,"end":16276.926,"text":"今天針對這個主題想要跟您討論兩個事情一個就是家暴風險評估應該要跨部會的資訊串接那第二部分就是很高興我們最近兒童整個照顧要提高成績所以以兒童為中心的政策成績的跟您來討論一下"},{"start":16277.506,"end":16305.946,"text":"那我們也了解在這個家暴的處理過程當中風險評估的系統是非常非常重要的因為透過好的系統我們才有辦法讓這個家暴未來的對我們兒少的影響會最少那我們也很期待衛福部作為主管機關一定要跨到做到跨部會的即時資訊的串接那我們也知道目前根據家庭暴力防治法的第五條裡面它其實已經有明文規定"},{"start":16306.807,"end":16336.507,"text":"在第1項第7款當中規定說中央主管機關應該要統籌建立管理家庭暴力電子資料庫供法官檢察官警察醫師護理人員心理師還有社會工作人員等等其他政府機關使用並要對被害人身份予以保密在今天的部長的書面報告裡面好像說無需再重複規範因為看起來法條裡面都已經說明了很完整的"},{"start":16337.007,"end":16358.511,"text":"可是也有委員擔心說那這些網絡會議的處理是不是真的能夠像我們所法條規定這麼嚴整那其實我們也擔心為什麼我們要持續強調這個重要性那可不可以麻煩這個法務部張司長還有司法部中廳長跟內政部警政署的李副署長"},{"start":16359.659,"end":16379.987,"text":"我們希望能夠確認這些資料的串接狀況是非常非常符合我們所有在處理過程當中很完整的部分那目前這個家暴案件裡面你們有拿到全部的風險評估的資料嗎如何串接它的即時性如何可不可以就現況讓我們也稍微了解一下"},{"start":16381.164,"end":16394.883,"text":"跟委員簡單說明這個家庭暴力電子資料庫這個平台我們是建立的那主要是針對有通報的或者是申請保護令的這些相關的資訊我們是把它放在這上面"},{"start":16396.044,"end":16416.304,"text":"那不曉得這個還有沒有什麼可以再精進的地方是 可以請三位部會的出席的長官稍微讓我們也知道一下目前串接的過程裡面有沒有碰到哪一些比較困難那部長剛才也說在增進的部分還可以怎麼精進可不可以讓大家都了解"},{"start":16417.144,"end":16445.572,"text":"跟委員報告我是司法院部分我少教廳廳長那麼這一部分我們持續由我們幾個網絡部門在進行這個網絡借接的一個這個這樣的一個工作行程那預計在明年4月把這些網絡借接把它借接起來那將來我們這些辦案的人員透過這種帳密就可以去查到這些資料共享這樣"},{"start":16446.432,"end":16473.755,"text":"明年四月會完成完成開始做一個try測試這是第一部分因為非常重要的是我們司法院在法律的修正後我們有一個非常重要的規定是申請延長保護令我們必須在立即通報網絡去保護被害人的安全那這種通報如果沒有這種網絡立即的借接速度太慢"},{"start":16474.535,"end":16495.441,"text":"因為這樣才整合這個剛剛委員所說的很重要的網絡的一個危險的一個資訊一起把它整合起來是的確就是我們最擔心的所以如果能夠目前當然一直在解決有相關的困難的地方一直在開會解決這樣那警政署那邊有要補充嗎"},{"start":16497.433,"end":16513.088,"text":"跟委員報告 目前我們衛福部所建立的這個相關的系統是有開放給警察各個分局的單位包括偵查隊或者加防官他們是有站密 然後可以登錄查詢目前的狀況是這樣"},{"start":16514.269,"end":16531.25,"text":"好那最後還有其他要再補充的謝謝跟委員報告法務部那也感謝衛福部有提供我們相關的資訊讓我們在這個偵辦案件的時候可以從我們單一窗口那利用帳號密碼就可以去查詢一些保護令的通報紀錄以及保護令的裁定所以可以無縫銜接"},{"start":16532.351,"end":16561.611,"text":"目前可以查詢到的相關資訊就是保護令的通報紀錄跟保護令的裁定在法務部這邊好謝謝那三位長官請回是其實我們了解在這次這個北市中大案件裡面的移送過程裡面並沒歷次的這個通信通報紀錄裡面檢視警政服務系統僅能查詢相關的暴力案件的通報紀錄是真的有他的一些不足的地方"},{"start":16562.171,"end":16583.163,"text":"那請問這個部長目前研商會議以後資料串接的進度如何如何跟相關的這個系統做串接部長還可以再進一步說明就是主要是那個即時性當初在這個會議當中大家在反映的是即時性這後面都會有啦但是如何能夠更快的"},{"start":16584.123,"end":16605.734,"text":"不是用後面的批次上傳那種交換的方式 而是更即時性所以我們會來追蹤一下看看這個即時性的部分如何再提高就是法院這邊有判決 如何更即時性的讓第一線的警察機關可以得知這樣"},{"start":16606.465,"end":16633.867,"text":"好 謝謝大家繼續努力那再過來是以兒童為中心的政策層級這個其實大家都已經期待非常久了上一次部長也說明了一些狀況那最近賴總統更是宣布要設立兒童及家庭署那目前我們看到的這個架構是目前社家署的這個架構兒童福利值是其中的一組所以相對來講 權限各方面是真的受到很大的影響"},{"start":16634.628,"end":16655.873,"text":"那未來再到二零二八年我們會有第二期的計畫四年會投入到一百三十五點六億這樣的經費來希望能夠提高對兒童的照顧那我們也看了日本日本他們其實有非常豐沛的這方面的組織架構跟人力的配置光一個兒童廳他們就有五百一十名的所有官員"},{"start":16656.753,"end":16674.344,"text":"那目前如果希望能夠提升這個照顧的需求的話那我們在計畫上是怎麼去落實這樣的政策那有沒有完成跟日本相關的兒童家庭廳制度的對接跟差距的評估這部分也會請部長在這邊再強調跟說明謝謝委員給我這個機會說明"},{"start":16679.107,"end":16707.374,"text":"這個我們現在所規劃的這個兒少及家庭支持署是一個新設的單位不是這個社家署改個名字而已但是會把現行在社家署裡面那個兒童福利跟這個家庭支持這兩個組會一起移到這個新的這個新設的這個兒家署裡面來同時也會把這個兒童的保護業務福利還有健康政策"},{"start":16708.614,"end":16723.95,"text":"這個也會把它融入到這一個署裡面來所以我們會盡量的去爭取這個緣額讓他可以這個全責相扶啦是 所以目前的華研依據組織架構人力跟預算的規劃都已經成熟了"},{"start":16724.695,"end":16746.733,"text":"已經在內部一直在盤點這些哪些業務要移入然後他的這個幾個組然後這個編制怎麼樣我們會完成之後送到先修改這個組織法修訂組織法送到行政院來核定之後再報立法院來審議"},{"start":16747.642,"end":16767.709,"text":"好我們希望這樣能夠有跨部會的權限喔不然的話討論起來會相對是比較弱勢一點好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席石部長有請有請石部長"},{"start":16771.693,"end":16800.319,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了這個我想家暴的防治也不應該只是衛福部的責任因為其實有法令也有相關的一些執行那當然也有一些預防等等所以其實不管法務部司法院教育部等等應該相互合作處理這個事但我們今天質詢也不是要指責誰因為最近發生一些悲劇我們希望可以從制度面的層面探討解決問題那現在家暴法我們看相關的一些很多提案修法的方向都是在增加罰則每次遇到問題我們就增加罰則當然有一定的嚇阻效果"},{"start":16800.919,"end":16814.493,"text":"但我想在面對新北市土城這個案子就是先申請了保護令但是在程序中並沒有實施預防性羈押然後到後來回過頭來採取了更極端的作為導致了人命的損失增加罰則對於這樣的案例有用嗎"},{"start":16816.668,"end":16841.048,"text":"因為這個案子有兩種一種是已經違反了這個保護令然後這個有沒有羈押成立或者是這個給予更強制性的一些這個措施對啊 所以顯然沒辦法預防對不對我只是增加法則沒有用嘛 對不對那第二個問題是我們的家暴法31條之一有規定預防性羈押相關的一些這個"},{"start":16843.334,"end":16871.08,"text":"配套措施但這樣的案子裡面其實有多次家暴的記錄啊以這個土城的案子來講也因為違反保護令有進到法庭的程序裡面嘛但是怎麼樣來講都是摸不到那個預防性羈押的門檻嘛所以當然在法務部等等在執行的時候法院的體系在執行的時候最後只能無保次回嘛那無保次回之後就發現是破洞了嘛那現在現行的條件我們除了講說要增加罰則增加嚇阻效果之外我們要不要考慮提高一下預防性羈押的應該說降低一下預防性羈押的門檻部長"},{"start":16873.232,"end":16892.86,"text":"預防性羈壓剛剛其實在林委員質詢的時候有特別提到啦他那個刑度的關係讓這個要羈壓的可能性降低所以這個是可以未來來討論可以討論對不對好謝謝我就要聽這句話因為本期的提案雖然現在還在連署但我們提案的方向其實就是鬆綁相關的門檻現在我們衛福部針對家暴風險有一個"},{"start":16896.941,"end":16920.637,"text":"TIPVDA這個要怎麼唸TIDA我剛有稍微聽到這個叫做親密關係危險暴力評估表1234危不危險等等它其實是一個初判那初判裡面其實你也有提說你需不需要政府介入來做協助那本席的建議是這樣就不妨用這一張表當作一個很好的切入基準也就是說在這一張表上你當然可以調整一下內容跟介入的程度"},{"start":16921.357,"end":16947.811,"text":"如果符合被害人或者是高風險被害人他心裡的恐懼等等程度等等到一定的程度他其實就應該跟可不可以採取預防性羈押進行掛鉤嘛換言之這個分數達到非常非常高的時候我直接可以處理預防性羈押我是不是比起現在我要什麼反覆再犯而且有明確事實證明反覆再犯我才能做預防性羈押來得強得多部長你覺得咧我們要不要考慮一下修正這張表跟修正相關的法條讓他可以掛鉤就是說這個TIDA的兩表他的"},{"start":16952.354,"end":16970.708,"text":"叫做預測準確性 它是高危機個案的預測目前這個當然可以提供給法官在裁量的時候的一個參考對 現在只是參考嘛 但都沒有強制要沒有強制性的那怎麼去精進這個 我們可以再回過頭來看一下這個量表"},{"start":16973.87,"end":16986.184,"text":"並不是這個每一個這個就跟前面這個委員有提到我幫你講啦他可能不能當成唯一標準但他是眾多標準之一對不對好我們把"},{"start":16988.867,"end":17003.839,"text":"把問題拉開來看就是說高風險個案進行預防性羈押可不可以讓被害人有更充足的時間跟心理壓力可以進行生活圈的徹底隔離從技術上跟政策方向應該要做到這個事嘛好那我們就要針對這個事嘛本期的版本的意思大概的概念是這樣就是說"},{"start":17005.16,"end":17026.445,"text":"以現在修法現在的版本要預防性羈押只能違反保護令然後成立嫌疑重大然後反覆實行的事實認證嘛這是這麼多的三管五卡你才能羈押所以羈押率非常低然後所以出現各種破洞本期的版本是這樣違反保護令或者成立相關的家暴已經有犯罪事實或者有事實認證反覆"},{"start":17027.585,"end":17042.86,"text":"這些跟之前都一樣 你是採取連級任何之一都可以 加上這一張表認定達一定標準 認定成為高風險者這樣子的方向 請問衛福部是否贊同這個方向我們支持 加上我們這個評估非常感謝 這我們希望喔"},{"start":17043.62,"end":17061.72,"text":"這個兩表我們還需要再兩表跟著精進都沒有問題我相信衛福部跟相關人等的專業最後花一點點時間因為很多人都大家都希望法律還可以保障人權但是我想部長應該也蠻清楚這年頭就是亂世嘛治亂世要用重點現在這都已經討論到詐騙犯要不要用鞭刑了對不對"},{"start":17062.401,"end":17089.15,"text":"所以說大家的民意的主流焦慮跟期待是害怕這些事情傷害到本來大家寧靜安正常的生活所以還在過度的保護加害人其實是不合時宜的所以我認為把家暴相關預防性階段的門檻往下降我覺得應該是合於社會大眾的期待也有助於遏止家暴的發生啦好不好那就希望版本進來的時候衛福部會有開放的心態當然可以提意見但我們往這個方向前進可以嗎可以可以好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17093.05,"end":17106.649,"text":"謝謝劉許廷委員發言接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在接下來請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在好那"},{"start":17108.342,"end":17132.297,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員傅坤祺審發會所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報做以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定現在宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議一併宣讀"},{"start":17135.273,"end":17152.811,"text":"家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案委員葉元之等十八人委員王玉敏等十六人委員邱振軍等十八人委員蘇星權等十八人委員廖先祥廖先祥等二十二人委員郭育晴等十七人委員羅廷偉等十六人委員廖偉祥等十六人提案現行法條文對照表"},{"start":17153.872,"end":17179.369,"text":"委員廖先祥等22人提案第二條 增訂第七款如下七 電子保護令 指裝置全球定位系統依加害人及被害人雙方距離提出警示之電子設備或程式予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等17人提案第二條 修正第三項如下三 目睹家庭暴力 指看見 聽聞或其他感官察覺家庭暴力予以現行法同"},{"start":17180.229,"end":17195.662,"text":"委員邱振均等18人提案第5條於第1項第5款聚首增戀建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制頓好予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第13條新增第1項至第4項如下"},{"start":17196.443,"end":17223.123,"text":"申請保護令時得並同申請電子保護令法院核發電子保護令後由警察機關執行追蹤及管理並命相對人佩戴具全球定位系統之電子定位裝置並應同步提供被害人接收及時警示之設備或程式主觀警察機關應於保護令核發後24小時內完成加害人之裝置佩戴與被害人之警報系統設置"},{"start":17224.424,"end":17244.714,"text":"並向相對人及被害人為使用說明與告知相對人外出因全程佩戴電子定位裝置且不得以任何方式故意拆除損壞隱匿丟棄或阻斷設備電子保護令之撤銷除被害人申請外相對人檢察官警察機關得與情勢變更或已無"},{"start":17246.235,"end":17275.735,"text":"持續危險之事實存在時向法院申請撤銷法院審查時應依職權調查相對人過往履行保護令之情況並經輔導被害人之心理師設攻擊被害人之意見審酌後方得撤銷電子保護令之申請條件執行方式裝置規格資料保全通知機制及其他應遵行事項除奔發所規定事項外由衛生福利部會同相關機關定相關實施辦法"},{"start":17276.535,"end":17296.014,"text":"現行第一至第八項 第一為第五至第十二項委員郭玉琴等17人提案第十四條修正第一項第十款如下10 命相對人完成加害人處遇計畫 處遇計畫期間不得有拒絕參與 中斷參與或無故未依執行單位指定時間地點參與之行為"},{"start":17298.436,"end":17326.752,"text":"第二項據莫增列文字如下分號為維護未成年子女安全或福祉法院應依職權審酌其家庭狀況並得依職權核發該未成年子女之保護令與被害人之保護令合併審理與裁定若父母雙方皆為未成年子女之保護令申請人法院應優先考量子女之最佳利益並就各申請人與子女之關係分別為適當之裁定"},{"start":17328.65,"end":17350.72,"text":"於第三項前段句末增列文字如下句號但經法院認定相對人有施以暴力或有對被害人造成嚴重危害之餘等高風險情勢法院因強制命相對人接受有無必要施以精神治療戒癮治療及其他治療處於計畫之鑑定評估修正第四項如下"},{"start":17351.34,"end":17367.715,"text":"第一項第十款制裁定應在明處遇計畫完成期限處遇計畫執行單位應定期向法院及直轄市縣市主管機關提交書面報告詳述相對人參與計畫之狀況出席情形態度及進展評估"},{"start":17368.596,"end":17388.212,"text":"增列第五項如下法院審閱前項報告後若認為相對人有在施暴之餘或其他高風險情勢得命直轄市縣市主管機關對相對人進行追蹤輔導並得在民輔導期限方式及內容予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第16條"},{"start":17389.173,"end":17407.056,"text":"新增第三項如下不經審理程序之暫時保護令應於申請日期五日內已書面核發暫時保護令並得以電信傳真或其他科技設備傳送緊急保護令與警察機關現行第三至第七項第一為第四至第八項"},{"start":17407.777,"end":17427.115,"text":"予以现行法同委员廖先祥等22人提案第19条修正第一项如下法院应采取必要措施确保被害人或证人得于安全无余之环境出庭并于停讯后安全返回其居所庇护处所或其他指定地点予以现行法同"},{"start":17428.056,"end":17446.633,"text":"委員王玉明等16人提案第30條之一修正第三句前面文字為檢察官偵查犯罪經被害人陳述其相處經驗與意見並詢問被告後認為被告犯違反保護令者並修正默劇為得向法院申請羈押予以現行法同"},{"start":17448.243,"end":17465.831,"text":"委員王維銘等16人提案第31條增列第一項第五款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控並使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員知悉其位置現行第五款 第一為第六款"},{"start":17466.351,"end":17489.525,"text":"增列第二項如下前項第五款科技設備監控之實施機關構人員方式程序及被害人之息等事項之執行辦法由中央主管機關會同司法院法務部定之現行第二至第三項第一為第三至第四項並修正第三項據守文字前項為第一項予以現行法同"},{"start":17490.265,"end":17494.409,"text":"委員蘇清泉等18人提案第31條修正第1項第5款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控或其他保護安全之事項予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第31條增列第3項如下"},{"start":17507.519,"end":17531.249,"text":"檢察官或法院任被告無羈押必要且申請民事保護令時未附加申請電子保護令被害人檢察官法院 警察機關或直轄市縣市主管機關得當庭或另以書面 言辭 電信傳真或其他科技設備傳送之方式向法院申請電子保護令現行第三項 第一為第四項 予以現行法同"},{"start":17531.909,"end":17556.909,"text":"委員郭玉琴等17人提案第31條 增列第1項第5款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控 現行第5款 以列為第6款 予以現行法同委員廖偉祥等16人提案第31條 修正第1項第5款如下5 接受電子科技監控之軟硬體設備或其他保護安全之事項 予以現行法同"},{"start":17558.618,"end":17585.584,"text":"委員邱振均等18人提案第31條增列第一項第五款如下 五 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控現行第五款 第一為第六款 增列第二項如下前項第五款科技設備監控 因使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員及時掌握被告行蹤 其實施機關構人員方式程序及其他相關事項之執行辦法"},{"start":17586.784,"end":17606.873,"text":"由中央主管機關會同相關機關定之與委員王玉敏等十六人提案同委員羅廷輝等十六人提案第三十一條增列第一項第五款如下五接受電子監控措施包括佩戴定位設備或其他必要科技工具現行第五款第一為第六款"},{"start":17607.313,"end":17626.415,"text":"予以現行法同委員王玉明等16人提案第35條增訂第二項如下依第31條第1項第5款實施科技設備監控之被告故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備警察人員得強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所"},{"start":17627.176,"end":17641.603,"text":"由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令規定為後續處理予以現行法同委員邱真君等18人提案第35條增訂第二項如下經本法第31條及第38條實施科技設備監控者"},{"start":17644.904,"end":17666.493,"text":"故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備經檢察署通報警察機關司法警察官或司法警察應及時強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令規定為後續處理予以現行法同"},{"start":17667.193,"end":17685.485,"text":"委員王玉明等16人提案第38條增訂第二項第6款如下6 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控並使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員知悉其位置現行第6款 第1為第7款增列第5項如下"},{"start":17686.125,"end":17710.356,"text":"依第二項附保護管束且經實施科技設備監控之加害人故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備經檢察署通報警察機關司法警察官或司法警察得強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令"},{"start":17711.62,"end":17737.242,"text":"規定為後續處理 現行第五項 第一為第六項予以現行法同 委員邱振均等十八人提案第38條增訂第二項第五款如下 五 接受適當之科技設備監控現行第五六款 第一為第六七款 增訂第三項如下法院依前項第五款規定 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控準用本法第31條第二項之規定"},{"start":17739.134,"end":17767.122,"text":"現行第三項第一為第四項修正手續為法院依第一項第六款規定現行第四至第五項第一為第五至第六項予以現行法同委員廖新祥等二十二人提案第三十八條第二項序文據莫增列文字如下逗號必要時得以電子保護令強化管束予以現行法同委員葉元之等十八人提案第六十條修正第二項手續後面文字如下"},{"start":17767.722,"end":17787.617,"text":"因含二小時以上之家庭暴力防治活動並得於總時數不變下彈性安排於各學年實施增訂第三項如下前項課程及活動之內容由教育主管機關擬定予以先行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第61條修正第一項序文末二句為"},{"start":17788.317,"end":17802.979,"text":"除5年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科新台幣50萬元以下罰金增訂第二項如下電子保護令保護期間若相對人違反第13條第二項第14條第一項第二款其中禁止相對人對於被害人"},{"start":17803.439,"end":17826.734,"text":"目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員為騷擾接觸跟蹤之規定為違反電子保護令罪應依下列規定給予警告告誡或處以刑罰一 相對人近被害人500公尺內應以訊息或其他具持續性之警示通知相對人遠離被害人並同步通知被害人"},{"start":17827.634,"end":17850.235,"text":"二相對人近被害人300公尺內主管警察機關得經被害人同意後以口頭或書面告誡相對人並全程監控追蹤至相對人遠離被害人500公尺距離三遣款告誡後加害人仍未依循警方指示離開保護令範圍將以違反電子保護令罪處一年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":17850.655,"end":17860.164,"text":"居易科或丙科新台幣10萬元以下罰金相對人於不同時點或場所違反前款規定應視為個別違反行為得按次處罰相對人外出時應全程佩戴電子定位裝置不得以任何方式故意拆除損壞隱匿丟棄或阻斷設備違者處以三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":17873.357,"end":17896.828,"text":"居易或科或病科新台幣30萬元以下罰金予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等17人提案第61條修正第5款如下5 完成加害人處遇計畫或有拒絕參與 中斷參與或無故未依執行單位指定時間地點參與處遇計畫之行為予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":17899.076,"end":17921.444,"text":"第一案第十四條增列第一項第十二款及第十三款如下十二 命相對人與一定期間內佩戴科技設備接受監控並接受電子唯利警示十三 命相對人與被害人及其指定之特定人配發具備雙項警示及定位功能之通訊設備現行第十二至第十六款"},{"start":17921.904,"end":17947.495,"text":"第一為第十四至第十八款予以現行法同第三十條之一修正第四句後面文字如下有違反第十四條第一項各款行為或有破壞規避科技監控設備之餘或有事實足認反覆實施家庭暴力有加害被害人或家庭成員生命身體健康之餘而有羈押之必要者得羈押之第六十一條"},{"start":17948.115,"end":17972.94,"text":"修正第一項序文最高刑期為五年罰金為五十萬元增列第二項如下犯前條之罪而有下列情形之一者處七年以上有期徒刑一至被害人或其特定家庭成員受重傷二至被害人或其特定家庭成員死亡予以現行法同提案人委員盧憲一連署人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝宣讀完畢"},{"start":17976.295,"end":17995.582,"text":"好報告聯席會我們今天的議程就先進行到這裡如果沒有異議的話做以下決議家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案等八案尚未審查完略另則其繼續審查本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":18021.754,"end":18037.103,"text":"在違反的時候"},{"start":18045.256,"end":18045.416,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"165650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d108cdbd0877c0c8c00799e8a58cec5c3eeb7a1b79e01d23952be3db84a1c3d9675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:28:57 - 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司長為什麼羈押的比例這麼低因羈押而未羈押違反保護令罪"},{"start":95.295,"end":123.714,"text":"他的二職在哪裡保護令的類型通常都已經是為國家和法律所禁止的事項了他已經違法一次了那經由違法一次國家發放這個保護令合法了是再告訴你一次等於是第二次的告知相對人法律不允許你做這一些事情"},{"start":124.494,"end":152.641,"text":"可是行為人對於國家特別再一次告知的法律禁止事項他無動於衷無視於法令的存在又再一次的違反法令所以這種人是顯然法治意識極為淡薄所以在這種狀況裡面我們再告知他兩次以後呢他還是要再違法"},{"start":153.701,"end":182.157,"text":"所以所以他會你的我們的家暴防治法裡面說他違反這個保護令罪刑責多少刑責多少三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款司長你來說法務部三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款導致於法官不會裁或者是檢察官最後就放棄了"},{"start":183.373,"end":201.398,"text":"你看他要打小報告你們今天整個早上都沒有人說也沒有講就是他的那個法定刑事三年以下的罪名那原則上刑事訴訟法規定是原則上是不得好啦 給你打pass了你們都沒有講重點"},{"start":204.957,"end":231.979,"text":"法王條款就是來自於刑事訴訟法第114條的規定羈押的被告有下列的情形之一者如經拒保申請停止羈押不得駁回當事人只要去申請我們要拒保不要羈押你的法官一律不准駁回"},{"start":234.238,"end":251.246,"text":"所以三年以下其中一款哪一種狀況是一定要給他交保不可以羈押第一款所犯最重本行為三年以下的有期徒刑拘役或專科罰金的罪者"},{"start":254.095,"end":279.707,"text":"所以你這一條法律家暴房治罪就是三年以下一律要交保但是他有一個但書但書就是累犯有犯罪的習慣的假釋中更犯罪或依第100條之一的一項之一的這個羈押者不在此限所以後來有裁定可以羈押的都是累犯"},{"start":281.786,"end":305.581,"text":"這樣你聽得懂嗎 有裁定羈押的都是累犯啦只要不是累犯 通常都一定要符合罷網條款的規定一定要准他交保 怎麼羈押法律真正的問題在這裡 沒錯你今天你的報告再跟大家說這條不要重演啦 不要重演啦 不能再提高啦"},{"start":309.357,"end":323.327,"text":"我們主要還是要尊重在這個立法過程當中這個法官的裁量權法官沒有裁量權因為罷網條款在那裡土城那一個案子是累犯嗎土城那個是累犯嗎 不是"},{"start":324.741,"end":337.893,"text":"在信義區那個殺了那個女孩在停車場殺女孩那個是累犯嗎那一個是法官有可能去認定為有犯罪習慣的嗎他們都第一次他怎麼羈押沒有辦法羈押所以我今天講說"},{"start":346.448,"end":361.117,"text":"我們 我知道衛福部不是法律刑事訴訟法的專業我們衛環的委員也沒有人是刑事訴訟法的專業提案的委員也沒有人知道這個霸王條款"},{"start":362.421,"end":391.061,"text":"可是你法務部 你司法院對於委員提案 你沒有表示任何意見你們也不知道說真正的結構性問題為什麼沒有裁定羈押其實是來自於霸王條款所以違反保護令罪的人數這麼多裁定羈押的比例這麼低有時候不是因為檢察官意識不夠不是因為法官搞不清楚而已 不是"},{"start":392.213,"end":417.192,"text":"即便他搞得清楚也押不成押不成所以在這裡我們你知道普通傷害罪普通傷害罪連普通的傷害罪都五年以下的有期徒刑了我們這個違反法令所不許的第一次第二次再告誡你不可以合法的保護令了再告誡你你仍然還要違法而這樣的違法竟然只比"},{"start":423.057,"end":443.325,"text":"還比普通傷害罪還要輕所以嘛 所以這種狀況裡面壓得成嗎 壓不成壓不成 馬上交保出來就殺人土城 信義區 信義計劃區 信義區裡面就是這個樣子所以在這種狀況啊在這種狀況"},{"start":448.311,"end":462.408,"text":"是法律上 你第61條非修不可我也提出了一個 我就提出這一條的修正可是這樣不夠欸這個司法院司法院的加害者處遇計畫"},{"start":465.825,"end":493.176,"text":"你這種犯罪行為有時候就人格有問題生活上他有他的這個結構上的問題那大家都知道我們家暴防治法裡面最終還有一個要對加害者你其實要怎麼樣治療他要提出加害者的處遇計畫可是為什麼法院的裁定率幾乎沒有為什麼司法院"},{"start":494.276,"end":500.08,"text":"為什麼加害者處遇計畫幾乎都沒有法院主動裁核的為什麼為什麼裁定的處遇計畫為什麼這麼低 更低這些風險高的那他們不是更應該要去給他治療嗎加害者的處遇計畫不是更重要嗎"},{"start":523.092,"end":529.077,"text":"來 為什麼為什麼你們法官主動去裁定的裁合的處遇計畫這麼低 為什麼"},{"start":532.706,"end":552.282,"text":"報告委員現在有三個部分來報告第一部分是醫生請候法官啟動職權的部分必須先收集你不要再講這些了我跟你講你會叫地方政府先去評估叫社工去評估"},{"start":553.203,"end":557.285,"text":"然後再送上來啦那個都是地方政府送上來你們去裁的把責任可處理計畫的可行性與否交給地方政府而地方政府評估完以後你們認為這麼不要了算了都沒有法官主動去裁的為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":571.132,"end":597.951,"text":"因為大家都知道法官是有績效的你知道法官從事務分配制度上來看完成一個計畫你知道要花多長的時間嗎 評估要拖多久嗎當你結案的時候你完成了一個保護加害者處遇計畫的結案你核定 然後評估結案五個月 六個月 半年"},{"start":599.346,"end":627.503,"text":"可是呢這麼幾個月人家法院的法官還有績效評比人家結一個案子是要可能幾天一個月你處理一個加害者處遇計畫你要拖這麼久哪一個法官願意主動的去提出這一種計畫所以你們司法院對於加害者處遇計畫如果有法官願意提出來你們在制度面幫了他什麼"},{"start":628.854,"end":651.694,"text":"你沒有幫法官解決這個績效的問題案子 結案的速度這麼慢的問題你在事務分配上 你要不要跟他講你完成一個處理計畫 我要減少你多少的分案你有獎勵的機制嗎 沒有所以主動去做這件事的法官 不是傻的嘛"},{"start":653.494,"end":677.034,"text":"報告委員 現在我們已經啟動很久很多年了跟維護部協商後以後這個縣市政府的衛生局跟社會局他會派有一組鑑定人員到法院我現在不說了 我現在在問你事務性分配如果要去處理一個這個加害者處於計畫的法官那他可不可以減分案 可不可以是"},{"start":678.769,"end":693.715,"text":"那個目前每個法院的法官會議裡面有一部分是有這樣的一個獎勵方案但是呢一部分委員說的這個鑑定其實現在都一個月內就可以鑑定出來我們在講評估啦不是鑑定我們在講加害者處遇計畫"},{"start":698.797,"end":715.984,"text":"你要去評估這個加害者的人格以外你要評估他的經濟能力以外你還要再去評估說他對他的家庭可能的衝擊是什麼而這樣的治療會造成他家庭衝擊是什麼家人還需要哪些資源你覺得每一件都通通一個月可以完成"},{"start":717.657,"end":731.341,"text":"這分兩部分 剛剛委員說明的部分會請加防中心去做一個評估你覺得社工 地方政府社工多如牛毛每天吃飽陰影都去幫你換衣做這些事情都須交代須做喔當然當然 沒錯是 市長有辦法一個月保護師市長有辦法一個月就完成了嗎每一個縣市政府一個月就完成這個評估了嗎就提出計畫了嗎 的確要看個案"},{"start":741.103,"end":747.547,"text":"對嘛 所以你司法院今天是什麼單位來的少家廳 我是庭長鍾忠林你廳長喔報告委員 我報告一下數據我們依職權跟申請的今年1到8月有28.01%比去年整年只有23.71%我想這小小的進步是我們"},{"start":765.217,"end":770.009,"text":"小小的進步好不要再說了我現在不想說這個啦你不要說這個啦我要跟你說的是制度面"},{"start":772.456,"end":794.466,"text":"你國民法官 若是要交付國民法官審查的法官從交付開始到判決確定規則 折抵實踐 折抵事件我們這種家暴人 家害者的處遇計畫你知道攸關到一整個家庭 攸關到人格上的或是心理上的治療"},{"start":795.922,"end":810.316,"text":"法官要做認證的 你敢不願意讓他獎勵機制回去檢討這個制度面可以嗎可以 法官委員 那個有一些法院是有補修制度我們整體來研擬一些建議來 我今天要講的重點都一句就還沒講高檢署"},{"start":816.96,"end":837.269,"text":"高檢署在8月8號發布新聞稿然後認為說監控加害人與違反保護令時同步警示被害人然後這個降低受害風險所以妥善的規劃科技設備是可行的你們是這樣講的高檢署"},{"start":838.149,"end":860.768,"text":"高檢署法學研究中心他也講了西班牙制度也講了法國制度那請問這個衛福部司法院法務部警政署8月6號我們這個委員會也排了一個專案報告8月15號接續在衛福部召開精進加暴案件司法程序延長會議你們的重點還有後續有沒有繼續討論你們的那個會議的重點結論是什麼"},{"start":869.147,"end":881.927,"text":"就今天的电子监控的部分相关的部会认为这个方向可行但是有关的一些细节跟配套你这千篇一律的回答千篇一律的回答"},{"start":882.788,"end":902.202,"text":"立法院法治局有一個加暴加害人科技設備監控制度比較嚴細西班牙大家都知道做這個科技監控的時候重點是你要對危害程度危險程度先做這個風險評估嘛那西班牙警察呢他們的危險評估工具叫"},{"start":903.143,"end":918.125,"text":"Violent 它的系統它攻擊被害人的家庭暴力時用來評估家暴受害者遭受同一個加害人再度威脅的可能性所以他們把家暴威脅分為可忽略低的 中的 高的 極端的"},{"start":918.686,"end":939.828,"text":"然後司法機關再去參採這個危險評估然後去決定警察警力資源的調派所以他們只針對高風險還有極端風險的個案去配置這個科控的監控的設備所以在這裡面呢所以這個"},{"start":941.735,"end":964.501,"text":"我剛剛講的立法院他們講了幾個想法第一個就說主管機關經研商檢討認為司法實務上在評估保護令合法還有加害人羈押時檢方多有困難於短時間內取得完整的個案的資料導致影響判斷的情勢那衛福部就說好那我們會去完善檢方資訊取得的管道"},{"start":965.501,"end":988.436,"text":"但是呢你們說要去建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制然後你們也說要去促成申請羈押標準的統一性那我認為是你們要給檢方資訊取得的管道了OK了但是申請羈押的這一個標準的統一性我也認為他已經在我要修61條單修61條把刑度從3年提高到5年的時候某一個程度也可以適當的解決了"},{"start":995.521,"end":1023.249,"text":"但是唯獨建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制你要承諾了這一個是最困難的你知道一個AI殺人事件嗎就是因為錯誤的評估了這個風險導致風險評估的錯誤而而有一條人命被殺掉你知道嗎 有誰知道都沒有人知道"},{"start":1025.711,"end":1040.237,"text":"好 來因為西班牙國家警察危險評估工具叫VOHEN他用自動化的技術去建置了家庭暴力的風險評估機制但是BBC曾經在今年的4月22"},{"start":1042.278,"end":1067.028,"text":"報導指出 因為演算法失靈的代價西班牙的VOH的系統誤判了家暴的風險斷送了一條寶貴的人命曾經遭前夫家暴的西班牙女子莉娜在一次被威脅的時候向警察報案遭警方用AI的系統VOH判定為中度危險"},{"start":1068.248,"end":1080.985,"text":"然後三個禮拜以後他就被前夫殺害了引發了民眾對於風險評估這個AI系統的保護能力的質疑你們準備怎麼做"},{"start":1083.39,"end":1100.285,"text":"透過AI的確它可以增進那個案件的處理但是還是不可忽略我們在你們有足夠的人力嗎如果大量的人要來判定風險了一次幾千個而且一直累積每次都一直新增"},{"start":1100.945,"end":1121.786,"text":"每次你們要怎麼樣不是透過自動化的AI而是靠人工 你有足夠的人工去判定風險嗎目前我們在親密關係暴力裡頭採的是替打量表那就是在第一線由社工 由警察以及醫事人員在第一線接觸被害你的替打量表只有一項"},{"start":1122.807,"end":1142.492,"text":"只有對警察社工醫事人員對本案的重要記錄或相關評估意見的註記你們問的問題是說請問你是否願意警政介入協助約制對方唯一的議題問受害者你願不願意警政來介入啊願意或不願意理由是什麼就這樣子而已"},{"start":1143.793,"end":1171.132,"text":"這樣子叫做足夠以來判斷風險嗎它有一個替打量表的8分5分以上就會進到我們的高危機所以這個部分是委員可能這個部分我們可以再加強它是用分數來做決定所以它也有可以做手動你覺得這個東西是足夠了嗎因為其實人家有教授講你們這些把這些量表然後靠著量表即便是手動"},{"start":1172.293,"end":1199.968,"text":"然後就要去判定風險其實是就跟他們現在AI做的一樣因為就填量表然後量表你從AI電腦幫你看幾分變成人幫你算幾分然後加上你最後一題所以我在講你對風險評估的手段和工具這是最核心可能你們都沒有認真想過所以今天在這裡就講說他山之石可以攻錯"},{"start":1201.519,"end":1222.55,"text":"曾經西班牙這樣子大家講法國法國是跟西班牙差不多但是你們評估風險的級別你們真的我光是問你們就過去的這些家庭暴力罪案違反保護令罪的整體案件數你有盤點出高風險和極端風險的比例和案件數了嗎有嗎有數據嗎有7%7%到10%左右對"},{"start":1226.112,"end":1251.887,"text":"好7%所以我們今天在講好那到底電子監控有沒有效有沒有效科技監控防逃是來自於當初交給高檢署有一個科控中心嘛EMC嘛在這種狀況裡面啦科控設備使用率很低為什麼法務部為什麼為什麼就犯罪防逃使用率就這麼低為什麼"},{"start":1255.263,"end":1275.57,"text":"因為那個行送法116號之二修訂以後那可能大家對於這個科控的這個執行的認知沒有那麼的普遍所以後來我們也強化不要講這些 使用率有多低你知道嗎我們目前使用率有提升提升到幾套現在一共幾套在使用"},{"start":1280.31,"end":1291.173,"text":"你們一共才買了1100套就加廠商送了100套現在正在執行的有33案有57套使用率5.16%那為什麼會這麼低呢這個"},{"start":1296.455,"end":1303.323,"text":"審計部審計部指出設備使用率低的缺失以後你們有去了解原因嗎因為媒體有報導 媒體是這樣講的因為當時要看這個科控的這個效果"},{"start":1310.811,"end":1316.335,"text":"所以2023年剿政署在明德外溢間試辦了一個電子手環計畫為了防脫逃嘛就讓那個外溢間都回家嘛然後再反間嘛所以今年5月的時候就試辦了一個計畫結果發現5月的時候有一個帶電子手環反家探視的受刑人直接破壞電子手環逃逸 藏匿當然後來就把他抓回來了"},{"start":1337.31,"end":1363.424,"text":"但是可以看出來 科控可以節省跟監人力但是需要大量的監控人力 否則無法及時發現被監控的對象還可以逃之夭夭 也就是說要隨時掌握電子腳療的訊號對司法人力是很沉重的負擔加上法官對設備信心不足 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你講一下"},{"start":1501.386,"end":1522.999,"text":"首先跟委員澄清一下關於委員剛剛的數據就我們目前那個科控部分的那個數據部分開案的部分的話在今年的部分院方已經有268件這部分因為我們之前已經有宣導過那檢方這部分有166件然後就結案的部分的話院方這邊有87件然後檢方有128件我再問你說法官啦對法官和示範人力有辦法負荷嗎"},{"start":1525.027,"end":1539.539,"text":"這個部分的話我們會再做宣導這個是犯罪違法防逃的科控現在講家暴房子進來高檢署要負責嗎EMC誰要負責還是警察警政署誰要負責24小時監控喔"},{"start":1543.308,"end":1567.428,"text":"那個 誰要負責保護令的這個所謂的科控跟那個刑事訴訟的科控是不一樣的我知道 你明明是說不用盯著螢幕看大概兩個距離內就會嗶嗶嗶了他這個建制可能必須要再去做妥善的這個規劃這個東西 一嗶嗶嗶的時候法官需不需要介入一嗶嗶嗶的時候警察要介入一定要 法官要不要介入"},{"start":1568.418,"end":1577.943,"text":"對阿 如果防這個家暴的科控BBB就是已經違反家暴令靠近了是檢察官還是法官要介入好先這樣子吧這個蘇芬委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"165649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d15c9dd0b8311d443e0799e8a58cec5c3eeb7a1b79e01d23952be3db84a1c3d9675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:20:42 - 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必要性 橫貧性還有可行性上我們都需要去討論到因為這個畢竟是會侵犯到這個人權個人的隱私他的整個日常生活都被監控這個在執行上確實我們要有各項的好的"},{"start":377.424,"end":398.655,"text":"都考量到了才比較合適另外部長我再請教就是說你剛剛有特別提到我們現在就有連結110的APP我想請教如果是大人也許他有手機如果小孩他沒有手機的話你們會怎麼去做一些保護"},{"start":400.373,"end":426.09,"text":"孩子的部分孩子目前对他确实是有的是没有手机的是那你们会怎么去处理这个我们再研究看看对孩子的部分怎么来强化就是你刚刚讲的这个APP是针对因为如果跟他的家人在一起是比较没有问题可是他可能要去上学或者是他也是这个国小他可以自己"},{"start":426.75,"end":445.191,"text":"去学校或者是对那这个部分我觉得你们应该要去思考一下对好针对他也许没有手机那也他也或者是他这个你们要怎么去针对这一群人去做保护今天的这个修法也有委员的案子是去强化那个教育的部分就是"},{"start":446.552,"end":469.929,"text":"在学校的教育让他们理解这些家暴的事件怎么保护自己等等这些加入到这个教育是需要我们是支持的但是如何再强化更主动性的保护我们来研究好 谢谢我们希望不要有再下一次的这样的一个伤害好 谢谢谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d169da2760cc9106410799e8a58cec5c3eeb7a1b79e01d23959a2301c5895557e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:12:13 - 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可以那關於那個羈押的部分的話其實目前為止如果說檢察官依照這個違反那個家暴的那個案件來申請羈押我們目前的數據來講就今年的部分的話其實已經有高達70.39%那其實在以往的話甚至有到八成只要檢察官針對這個違反家暴案件來進行生壓的話法官這個部分的話其實會做一個全盤的評估那這部分的生壓率其實是不低的"},{"start":270.905,"end":295.795,"text":"其實要解釋是因為檢察官沒生壓這就是像我們在講那個太子集團15萬交保然後當這個左院長震怒了之後呢北院趕快發一個新聞稿說不是我們這個是檢察官讓他交保的所以你的意思說問題不在你不在你們就是這邊法官的話不在在法官的"},{"start":298.918,"end":313.094,"text":"我們那個檢察司司長那就在你們了跟委員報告那當然羈押就是有一定的法定要件那如果符合羈押的要件的話我想檢察官都會依法來申請羈押那剛才也跟前面委員有報告過"},{"start":313.655,"end":339.2,"text":"就是說這個羈押的比例那它的母數是來自於所有的違反家暴的案件那違反家暴案件它有一部分是用函送也就是說不是拘捕現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那如果是以現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那檢察官認為說有符合羈押要件的話他就會申請羈押那這個比例上可能會是不一樣的那有關這個數據我想我們回去再去做比較詳細的確認之後"},{"start":340.54,"end":360.031,"text":"我希望其實在我們社會上常常假如我今天是施暴的是被施暴者是名人其實都比較容易被羈押社會關注而且會羈押很久可是像這種就是一般的深斗小民我們常常會看到或者我們自己也會也會面臨到這樣的這種選民的這個申訴求素無門 怕得要死然後"},{"start":366.494,"end":382.123,"text":"然後一再的違反這個保護令然後還會施暴還會就是對自己的孩子對自己尤其為什麼我們覺得這個深惡痛絕因為通常都是一個家庭裡面或者強者然後他去施暴那些弱者"},{"start":382.923,"end":404.065,"text":"不管是自己的老婆也好 這個體力比較小比較沒有體力的或者小孩子 所以我覺得在某一個程度那麼我們有積壓的這樣的一個工具應該去做 好不好最後一點點時間 不好意思 部長請教一下因為呢 這個"},{"start":406.866,"end":433.279,"text":"總統公佈了說要成立兒童及家庭署那我想請問一下因為這個呢外界質疑說這不過呢只是改名這改一個名字原來的社家署他把它併一下你們其他的私的業務然後就變成兒童及家庭署是不是這樣子不是不是那個社會及家庭署他還是留著那只是他的整個業務也會重整"},{"start":433.979,"end":448.933,"text":"那這個兒童專責是新的署完全新的署那你們要完全一個不是原來的社家署的改名而已不是不是是把社家署裡面的兒童家庭業務移出來"},{"start":449.814,"end":474.342,"text":"那社家属还是在但是我们会做任务的重组比如说会把一些长照的业务做整合那这个是新的一个儿少级家庭支持署是把儿童的业务把它整并起来所以他会着眼点是在对于儿童的保护不止 儿童的健康保护福利这些都会把它照顾"},{"start":475.322,"end":480.351,"text":"整合在一個新的 這個我們願意支持全新的再請委員支持"}]}},{"id":"165647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d165def957d2e5f7217119a7747a4c5c6ceb7a1b79e01d23951c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:54:24 - 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接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢我幫你記起來 你剛剛超過3分48秒好 謝謝好 請這個 人民會的主委還有公共工程委員會的主委好 請曾主委還有曾主委"},{"start":26.446,"end":50.845,"text":"這次花蓮馬太安溪在歷經這個海豔鳳凰兩隻鳥的催省之後那造成關戶萬隆鳳林等鄉鎮相當嚴重這樣的一個災害各位都很辛苦那本席在這次也提出一些主決議也是希望諸位長官可以來允諾那第一個就是說我們馬太安的這災情波及到許多原住民的部落"},{"start":51.874,"end":61.731,"text":"我要請教工程會跟人民會的主委是說中央重建匯報與馬太安西的這個事件從業小組是否有納入一定比例的部落代表席次這兩個"},{"start":64.415,"end":92.446,"text":"中央的匯報專案小組原民會是成員之一原民會也是成員之一原民會也是委員還有各部會主要是這個行政院的各部會在執行特別預算的各部會所以已經有原住民的聲音了那受災地區呢光復鄉呢他有客家人有漢人有原住民 阿美族原住民有三個部落"},{"start":93.838,"end":115.331,"text":"馬太安 太巴郎 阿塔莫 不同的部落所以我們沒辦法說一定有一定比例的原住民學者或什麼原住民來當這個專案小組主委導呼 我覺得重建匯報有原住民委員會進駐了啦有 有比例嘛 對不對好 沒關係 那馬太安溪的事件重建小組呢"},{"start":117.732,"end":146.901,"text":"這個重建小組現在就叫做中央的專案匯報是匯報然後有設執行秘書有三個副執行秘書還有各部會分成大概九個組在進行重建所以你的意思就是說這個中央匯報裡面有涵蓋這些小組小組是不同的不同比方說環境部內政部這些組那委員的部分包含就原民會也是其中之一"},{"start":149.106,"end":171.184,"text":"我只要跟主委討論啦因為我們太多這個在互見啦很多是在官員在看天下的角度啦那今天有這麼多部落當然原民會也是代表部落的聲音嘛但如果可以把一定比喻的部落代表可以納進來鈴鈴他們的聲音會不會更加精準啦更加及時去做一些反應啦內政部跟原民會"},{"start":172.245,"end":185.155,"text":"都有到當地去辦理說明會了包括中繼載或者農業部委去辦說明會關於這個農田的這個重化或者是復耕都有當地一場一場的辦說明會了"},{"start":187.372,"end":203.24,"text":"說明會是一個程序也是一件事情然後專案小組必要的時候也可以邀請相關的專家或者是當地的人來表示意見但沒有辦法一定比例當作正式的委員這個是有困難的"},{"start":205.073,"end":222.692,"text":"博主我講一段你參考看看啦災害防救法第六條跟特別條例第六條都明文規定重建應尊重原住民部落與文化嘛對不對但現在最大問題就是沒有看到一定體制內的一個具體的一個制度"},{"start":223.332,"end":251.037,"text":"這個要點是行政院院會通過的要點那要點也是執行預算的主要是執行預算來成立一個匯報那關於原住民的意見當地每一個部會執行預算的時候就會辦理說明會參考原住民的意見不會說不考慮原住民的意見我再引用一個引力你參考看看很多跨部的匯報當中都有納入外部的代表慣例"},{"start":252.389,"end":260.489,"text":"包含實案匯報有地方代表廉政匯報有外部專家地方暢生匯報有更直接媒合在地的社群"},{"start":261.807,"end":290.605,"text":"應該只要相關單位願意就可以了這個匯報事實上在執行特別預算的所以如果要成立外部我們可以列席邀請來表示意見或後來做一些討論但沒辦法變成一定比例正式的成員在這個匯報裡面如果主委答覆我是可以邀請他們來列席聆聽一些意見那我想就是一個進展嘛這樣就可以來這樣處理嘛必要的時候我們會邀請但是主要執行的是各部會各部會在當地都在舉辦了"},{"start":293.345,"end":302.921,"text":"所以跟委員報告不好意思這個如果說納入這個匯報裡面當作正式承認而且要求一定比例那不一定是在地的原住民這個執行起來會有困難"},{"start":303.936,"end":324.214,"text":"不是 我在組決議中也有特別提到了是不是重建小組中納入一定比例的部落代表席次但是你現在講說一定比例是有困難度是不是這樣就我們的要點已經通過了然後是各部會在執行預算的人他並不是一個在討論或者是說這個諮詢的匯報"},{"start":327.597,"end":333.775,"text":"他是真正在執行預算的匯報所以這部分要納入一定比例的成員是有困難的"},{"start":335.049,"end":359.513,"text":"那可以納入一定比例的列席代表嗎可以吧列席代表我們會邀請沒有不一定要一定要一定比例那到底是多少比例是有困難的大家當然是可以討論出來的啦所以這方面呢每個部會執行率算的是每個部會他們都到當地去舉辦說明會了所以那個如果任何意見事實上可以接納可以在那裡面來落實最起碼主委可以"},{"start":364.485,"end":388.522,"text":"同意我的建議把原住民的相關部落的代表納入在列席的代表裡面嗎 可以吧原住民就原民會已經在成員裡面了不是不是 你剛剛已經打呼我了嘛所以原住民就原民會就是代表就是那個會報原民會就是代表他是初席代表他是代表對啦 他是初席但我沒有辦法每一次都有固定的人來列席"},{"start":390.267,"end":401.122,"text":"我沒有要求你一定要固定的人來練習啦這個是你自己多想出來的啦好不好你剛剛承諾我這個部分就照這樣來處理嘛應該可以吧因為後面原住民的主委已經給我點頭了你還沒辦法幫我點頭"},{"start":405.107,"end":418.725,"text":"我是這個匯報的執行秘書是我知道了所以各部會是成員所以他們各部會本來就要負責去了解當地原住民的意見所以如果說在這個匯報裡面還有不足還要再反映那必要的時候我們會邀請我跟劉委員可以承諾這個"},{"start":420.748,"end":440.981,"text":"OK 好 當如果原民會主委也有邀請部落的代表來列席的時候也請執迷來協助嘛 對不對 我們會跟原民會來商量OK 好 謝謝 好 那程尚我要請問原民會主委 是我知道這個諮商取得原住民原住民族部落同意參與的這個辦法"},{"start":443.758,"end":467.894,"text":"這知道吧知道好因為上次這次災情不僅僅是一個部落嘛有些事項是需要跨部落去處理如果僅僅是以部落為單位要處理這麼多事情可能會有些事項出現三不管的狀況對所以我要請教主委是不是依據諮商取得原住民原住民族部落同意參與辦法在這個關西部落設置"},{"start":469.557,"end":494.219,"text":"跨部落災害 災後諮詢平台協助當地部落加快部落事項推動與決議可以嗎這可以 就是好幾個部落就成立一個跨部落的一個平台而且這樣的諮商會議是我能夠每次都做出這個諮商記錄然後由部落代表在重建小組的會議中提出納入災後重建計畫的審議之中可以可以啦 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d18f9492b18e53deea7119a7747a4c5c6c662daff7a264498acfd5e39c6a8a3cb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"13:44:32 - 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謝謝主席我請農業部陳俊基部長有請農業部陳部長"},{"start":31.841,"end":54.046,"text":"是 部長好 部長我們今天審馬太安溪特別預算我想這次針對這次的災害重創花蓮光復香 許多家庭陷入困境在這樣重大的天然災害我想我們大家都是命運共同體沒有什麼限時之分 中央也必須展現責任"},{"start":55.586,"end":79.533,"text":"所以本席也號召了新竹縣很多的民間的力量共同捐贈物資或者到現場去救災那麼我們災害的我們這一次的特別預算除了要讓光復鄉的鄉親重回正常的生活我想有一個非常重要之點就是如何利用這一次的特別預算的編列"},{"start":80.433,"end":87.906,"text":"我們防止這樣的事件再次的發生也就是說我們不僅要治標我們更要治本"},{"start":89.571,"end":103.701,"text":"那有關我們這次這個林保署編列馬太安溪煙色湖整治的相關工程有相關的工程還有農業復原還有復原重建統籌協調業務分別編列了14.3億9.2億還有250萬元合計總共23.5億我第一個問題要請問部長的煙色湖的整治是否可以做到治本"},{"start":119.431,"end":148.381,"text":"而不是治標我想我們現階段我們大概因為現在目前的整個地質不適合比較大的機具上去做降蛙的這個動作所以在短期之內我們還是用監測的方式跟預警的方式來處理可是中長期的部分等到我們的訊息過了以後那如果說我們的相關的機具能夠上到壩頂的時候那我們會嘗試做一些降蛙但是我要跟委員報告就是因為他三"},{"start":150.062,"end":173.162,"text":"馬太安溪是非常狹窄的谷如果旁邊的土砂在崩的時候就會形成新的顏色湖部長 剛剛相關委員的質詢你都講得很清楚了我本心也了解只是說我們這次編的14.3億是有關於馬太安溪顏色湖的整治工程你的內容 因為剛才你講那麼多現在可能沒有辦法 基礎沒有辦法進去"},{"start":174.143,"end":180.992,"text":"但是你這14.3億它的內容大概包含什麼項目你可以講一下我想第一個部分就是我們會進行就是從"},{"start":182.845,"end":208.492,"text":"變道開挖先做變道的進行然後變道進行讓車子能夠進去以後機具進去以後開始嘗試做降挖的這個動作讓這個菸塞爾湖的本體的部分能夠解除現在目前的一個危機然後第二個部分就是因為每次下大雨就有一些泥沙會下來所以我們會在上游的部分做一些藍沙壩讓這些沙做一些阻擋"},{"start":209.272,"end":224.701,"text":"不會造成下游的那個河床越墊越高那這個部分我想都是在這個14.3億裡面要做的是 部長我想因為時間的關係所以你現在講14.3億就是你剛才大概講的這些項目對沒有其他的聽起來好像很簡單"},{"start":226.246,"end":245.818,"text":"不過這個是一個非常困難的事情很困難嘛所以我想你這14.3億如何的讓這個就是房子很重要嘛我剛一直強調說你如何把這一次的經費用在刀口上讓這種事件不要再發生嘛所以假設這不是假設我們現在很明確的問你很嚴肅的問你如果這14.3億"},{"start":248.3,"end":274.434,"text":"我們這個整治經費把它花下去之後是否可以保證說就一定可以有效的預防下一場大雨之後下一場如果再下一場又是這樣的大雨來臨我們絕對不會再有這樣的事件發生我想我們花了我想花了這錢沒有人能夠保證說以後不會再發生我剛才說的我至少能夠減災做適當的減災但是不能保證說以後不再發生"},{"start":278.089,"end":288.935,"text":"不能保證喔因為旁邊的這些沙石隨時都有可能再次崩塌那我只能就現有的驗測壺我可以做到適當的減災的部分"},{"start":290.717,"end":316.447,"text":"所以這個部長這就很嚴重啊你現在只能減災所以你沒辦法保證說這個是類似的事件我們這次的錢花下去會不再發生就這樣聽起來很恐怖耶對這些急降雨不確定因素太多了而且現況山壁就有非常多的土砂它隨時因為大雨地震部長如果說你說沒辦法保證我要問你那你的監測系統是不是要做得很好對我們現在就是在監測系統會去強化"},{"start":318.621,"end":344.06,"text":"是 所以你在監測有時候你要如何做預警我想我們在整個的驗車壺的湖面本身就有放一些水位計跟監測計的部分然後我們也有攝影機的部分那如果還有跟氣象署聯絡如果急降雨的時候我們會隨時去評估所以你這14.3億還有沒有包含說未來要去增購一些比較精密的這個也包含在裡面都會去做嗎對 剛才講的監測的系統"},{"start":347.082,"end":367.578,"text":"好 OK 其實部長我想這個你因為真的要很嚴肅的去面對這種事情如果說再一次發生我想真的是全國人民都不能接受的你一定要去力保說這種事情不會再發生了這一次編了那麼多的經費進去我要跟委員說明一下馬太安西的上游本身"},{"start":368.891,"end":395.139,"text":"霸體 馬太安岩澀湖霸體本身貢獻的水量跟沒有馬太安溪大概五十五十啦所以那邊因為他是集水區的部分只要是下大雨的時候就很有可能造成所以所以嘛 希望大家現在還沒有下嘛所以大家一直希望說利用這一次的預算編列下去農業部要這個啊要上緊發條啊了解我們要跟上這種事情不要再發生了好不好不然請問最後這個主席給我一分鐘我請主席講"},{"start":403.055,"end":429.481,"text":"主席長我看這次的預算法定上限就300億這次編列270億還保留30億作為備用我看到這個我們這個本條例還有特別預算的施行期間是公佈日施行至116年的3月31日子但這個但書講說馬太安溪艷澀湖整治後續處理等部分項目則辦理至119年底"},{"start":431.961,"end":451.966,"text":"都要請教你 如果這30億就是後來沒有用 你剛也回答楊群文說這個如果要用 要再編列預算 要再去送交我們本院來做一個審議但是你現在就是說 你這邊講說 因為我們這個馬太安溪的整治是到119年底"},{"start":455.035,"end":477.48,"text":"那個整個條例是在116年3月31日他就結束了嘛所以這30億是不是不管你以後如何編都只能指定他的項目就只能用在這個馬太安溪的艷澀湖的整治項目上不是 他就是整個那個花江沙颱風的一個整個一個"},{"start":479.233,"end":494.697,"text":"你這邊這個條例裡面的他不是只有馬太安溪馬太安溪是對 這個是菸社我從前特別條例裡面因為你講說你這個後續整治的部分則辦理至119年底"},{"start":498.015,"end":519.478,"text":"那你條例即便已經失效了但是你整個未來的三十億你還在嘛所以我剛才問你說三十億沒用完因為這個整治部分是要一直辦到一百一十九年底嘛所以這樣聽起來你三十億一定是要用在整治項目上面啊所以你看三十億到一一六年止一百一十九年你這邊寫一一九年底耶"},{"start":520.727,"end":530.519,"text":"119是指那個已經有分配其他項目在做宴賽府的一個部分那個部分他可以做到119年那就是270億的裡面所以這30億不限於一定是要做馬太"},{"start":537.908,"end":552.244,"text":"對 不限於不是 不是它是整個整個那個條例裡面規範的項目都可以是 都可以啦是 所以如果說但是在116年度條例生效就是"},{"start":552.925,"end":579.981,"text":"戒指之後的話他就要另起爐灶就要譬如說要凍二倍金或者是再按準備金這樣子而不是用這個條例我看你的預備金有準備你這個270億裡面有編一個15億的預備金15億預備金有有編是所以這30億未來凍製到的可能性應該是很小了對因為他還要透過預算程序再還是要重新編列是吧是才可以好 以上了解好 以上謝謝好 謝謝林先生"}]}},{"id":"165560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d131e17bdb04889b7e7e24dce8f91e16eef2a9d4295e9d8f3ab3e2e9b7fa15091f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:37:52 - 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謝謝主席有請法務部調查局還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心還有內政部警政署 謝謝有請法務部部長嗎不用那部長請你先先休息 法務部調查局調查局請陳局長還有馬指揮官好 謝謝主席"},{"start":29.812,"end":45.723,"text":"我今天還是想要針對我們國內在打詐這件事情上其實真的已經有非常多進步因為其實國際的詐欺案件也好或是國內詐欺案件層出不窮我們甚至有看過有相關的人員對外說過台灣十一是一個練兵場"},{"start":46.624,"end":52.126,"text":"因為如果在台灣行得通在全世界有行得通我覺得非常遺憾但是我要先謝謝第一線的同仁這個是165打架儀錶板的數字我們來看一下這幾個月以來其實詐騙案件跟財產損失的部分都有下降這個真的是因為第一線同仁喔等一下我要講哪一些同仁大家併了命"},{"start":65.431,"end":81.186,"text":"這個做出來的成果我要真的非常感謝要拜託各位長官也要繼續支持第一線的同仁們給予他們鼓勵而實質的鼓勵可以有哪些呢我們來看一下這個紀錄片我不知道各位長官有沒有看過但是我跟我辦公室都看過是我們先在相關媒體上發現的"},{"start":82.347,"end":105.124,"text":"那我還看了兩次喔這裡面其實揭露了非常多165接線員的日常生活我想這個指揮官一定非常清楚對不對他們的日常生活那其實我其實想要來幫他們爭取一件事情指揮官你聽聽看如果按照他們這個排班的時間然後他們甚至有說出什麼樣的時段通常是什麼樣的詐騙案件例如說老人家比較多在早上"},{"start":105.724,"end":131.284,"text":"會在家接電話所以可能比較多是早上針對老人家的詐騙然後到中午是什麼到晚上是什麼其實他們講得非常的清楚那甚至我們看到這個紀錄片裡面他還說到他們有時候騎車騎一騎好像都覺得有幻聽有電話打來這樣我其實之前幫他們爭取過一次啦就是我們有沒有辦法針對這些165接線員給予更多的身心健康支持服務我想問一下指揮官"},{"start":133.444,"end":151.118,"text":"委員長我們目前已經有進行勤前的那個心理諮商跟勤後的心理諮商是每一天嗎還是那個頻率是什麼還是沒關係你們回去整理我們再來討論對於他的這個心理諮商我們大概就是每個月都會定期來做辦理這樣的一個諮商"},{"start":153.362,"end":174.236,"text":"那署長這樣好不好因為我認為那個頻率也許會超過各位長官們的想像或是他們的需求可不可以我們會後再來討論或是我們再跟你們要相關資料我們看一看立法院的預算這邊或者是長官們你們可以怎麼去想像對於這些第一線接線員的支持好不好尤其在身心健康諮詢的部分"},{"start":175.177,"end":192.433,"text":"那除了這些接線員的日常我看到你們的報告裡面提到非常多人其實都在第一線包含超商啊郵局啊銀行的工作人員那當然還包括如果詐欺案件成立之後檢警相關調查單位的人員或是後續司法的人其實都在第一線為我們大家服務喔"},{"start":192.853,"end":212.611,"text":"那這個部分我想我要在這裡公開對他們至上層次的感謝因為這件事情真的非常重要如果沒有他們在第一線承擔這些業務跟協助民眾我認為我們的詐騙案件應該只會越來越高絕對不會出現儀表板向的往下可是我們還是看到一些困境跟問題要拜託各位掌柜我們一起來討論第一個"},{"start":213.932,"end":231.242,"text":"關於詐騙案件還是很多這件事情可是我們來看一下這個數字這個公開的數字是根據法務統計專輯裡面那我們辦公室的同仁自己整理出來資料我們來看一下綠色的線是代表詐欺案件偵查終結的案件數這是綠色的紙條那藍色這個線是檢察官平均每一個月辦理結案的件數我們可以看到"},{"start":240.226,"end":260.496,"text":"當終結案件越來越多的時候其實檢察官的平均每個月結案件數也是越來越多而這裡面我相信包含了大量的詐欺案件對不對對這個數字應該是這樣如果沒有錯的話是這樣的話我來跟各位討論一下相關的數字我們看到在你們相關的報導裡面統計表格裡面呢"},{"start":262.823,"end":284.675,"text":"113年總共詐欺案件偵查終結案件數是13萬件111年到了112年偵查終結來到16萬件到了113年來到13萬件也就是說每一年有這麼多案件其實是被偵查終結結束也就是第一線的同仁真的拼了命"},{"start":285.595,"end":307.788,"text":"想要辦完這些案件讓相關的受害人得到一個撫慰得到一個公平正義所以我相信檢警的壓力應該壓力山大對不對來看一下可是除了檢警案件的體系之外我發現法院應該也非常的辛苦我們甚至看到有一個律師他協助"},{"start":308.663,"end":327.177,"text":"他的當事人去開庭然後呢這個是他真實自己寫出來的喔他說法官一來就開砲說詐欺案多到審不完他對這個被害人有些喊話了這個法官寫的我就不再說了不過律師提醒我們律師說其實不管你是被害人"},{"start":328.178,"end":343.308,"text":"或者你是什麼樣的情況下其實這些人被害已經是很慘了那當然我們可能會覺得他們不夠謹慎可是更多的時候其實是因為他們不知道他們正在面臨所謂的詐騙案件事件的發生就如同等一下我們來舉個例子"},{"start":344.329,"end":363.845,"text":"那右邊還有一個貼文他說呢朋友在法院工作去年他就說前年他們一個人經手的詐騙案件就1100多件今年過年的時候遇到他說去年1400件我自己有朋友在檢調系統上班他跟我說他們有一年收到的案件同一個案件裡面的被害人就5000多人"},{"start":364.645,"end":390.359,"text":"五百多還是五千多 我聽到非常非常的驚訝喔所以我可以想見在台灣這個現場我們的詐騙案件真的與日俱增而且是塞爆所以我剛剛為什麼要替第一線的同仁說話我認為當很多立法院委員就只有在指責這些人的時候或是交辦更多業務的時候其實沒有看見是第一線的同仁都已經被這些詐騙案件業務量塞爆塞滿我相信他們無止盡的加班都只是為了想要把這些案件辦完好"},{"start":392.806,"end":394.334,"text":"接下來我想要談另外一個事情"},{"start":397.122,"end":422.7,"text":"從檢警到法官疲於奔命我剛剛已經講了 所有在第一線都是這樣檢警 法官 再更早165專線可是到了感化這邊 收容機構這邊一樣都被詐欺犯塞滿包含在少年矯正學校裡面或是少關所裡面全部佔了三分之一都是詐欺犯就連我左手邊這一張傷害罪跟竊盜罪加起來都不如詐欺罪"},{"start":423.34,"end":444.819,"text":"而右手邊這張呢 哨官所收容的第一名也都是詐欺犯也就是說我們看到因為詐騙案件從第一線的165專線然後到警察 到檢調 到司法 到最後的矯正收容都跟詐騙案有關各位長官我想問一下我們的人力要不要調整 要怎麼調整你們有沒有相關的方案"},{"start":448.761,"end":465.909,"text":"有辦法調整嗎因為我真的很想幫這些第一線的人說說話就是說他們的日常業務量這麼大那我們有沒有調整人力的規劃或者可能性讓他們浪一點業務量不要這麼大然後有嗎"},{"start":469.215,"end":489.94,"text":"沒有就沒有真的沒有嗎都沒有署長要不要幫我們同仁爭取一下什麼我想這剛剛說的很有道理這是我們現在工作的日常大概有百分之六十都在偵辦這些的詐欺案件那對於這個人力上不管是從機場的拍手或偵查隊甚至到那個刑事那個刑警大隊或刑事局"},{"start":490.66,"end":505.546,"text":"大概我們現在的治安面裡面大概面臨大概就是只有這個詐欺那人力的部分確實是非常的吃緊那未來是怎麼樣的這樣的人力的這個擴編我想也在想辦法來做尤其就是刑事人員的這個警力的擴編來做一個來做這樣的一個努力"},{"start":509.147,"end":535.469,"text":"好 那指揮官呢我們165這邊有沒有機會增加更多人然後減輕第一線同仁的負擔我們現在165今年在10月份我們完成法制化所以我們人力的部分未來會進入一個實質上有邊組的人力那這個部分我們會跟刑事局再來協調去支援他們包括說辦公室 辦公廳社我們現在也打算要搬遷"},{"start":536.55,"end":552.787,"text":"太好了 因為我看到那個紀錄片那個工作環境真的是太悲欺了 太悲苦了因為他們接到的電話都是悲苦的案件電話有的已經是被騙了 有的即將被騙有的是打電話來查證相關謠言所以法治化之後的相關配置你們什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":554.17,"end":574.071,"text":"報告委員我們在這個月28號我們會正式掛牌是那掛牌之後我們希望在明年的時候能夠找到新的辦公場所是那目前已經在進行我也希望立法院要支持相關預算我們一定會支持我們也希望各個各黨委員都要一起支持165專線那個紀錄片也歡迎大家去看鼓勵大家去看好 謝謝指揮官好"},{"start":574.531,"end":599.731,"text":"那第二個其實要講的是境外詐騙這件事情其實我們看到非常多境外詐騙的案例可是境外詐騙可能相關的數字不管是你們給我們的報告裡面說的境外詐騙電話破譯通還有相關通訊軟體而且我認為案件數量絕對不止可是我認為境外詐騙才是最難工作的一端對嗎因為它牽扯到跟國際上不同國家的合作更不要講什麼樣國際案件例如說第一種問題叫做"},{"start":601.512,"end":622.606,"text":"調查跟追緝上的難度 例如說他用人頭賬戶 他用網路跳板 他用VPN 對嗎好 那我們台灣的檢調單位要如何跨國進行調查 我覺得很難第二個 假設真的抓到了 跨國我們找到的人司法上可被管轄 這應該也是第二個問題 例如說A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙 這要怎麼追查"},{"start":623.866,"end":633.932,"text":"A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙 這個應該也非常難追查第三個 我們應該很多國家都沒有辦法進行司法合作 對嗎這個部分可不可以 誰可以回答"},{"start":635.069,"end":653.552,"text":"委員現在所講的這個跨境的這個炸機確實有一些需要再去做突破的地方那也是比較有直接的困難不管是在這個嫌犯的查解或者是在這個相關有一些是沒有邦交的這個國家那你們通常怎麼做那我們有多透過鄰近友善的國家來做這樣的一個"},{"start":654.733,"end":683.98,"text":"一個相關的一個協助可是相關負責人力應該也不多吧我們鄰近的比如講簡單來講比如講像像柬埔寨跟泰國跟緬甸這一些有一些是我們比較有困難這個地方那鄰近的有一些有一些國家可以來做協助幫忙那我們派駐外面的聯絡官也會做這樣的一個這個聯繫那也會做這一些相關的一個案件的一個相關的一個協助"},{"start":684.52,"end":713.153,"text":"可是我們政治上其實本來就遇到很多外交的困難我相信這些政治上的外交應該也會延伸到司法調查的外交困難對不對對 這個部分應該是有在做努力的一個地方好 我只能說真的非常謝謝第一線的同仁尤其在跨國的詐騙案這件事情我認為相關難度絕對比境內還要高如果有任何你們覺得在立法院的預算端或是人力資源端可以協助的也拜託你們要如實的提出來好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員最後一個我要講防詐宣導"},{"start":714.563,"end":728.205,"text":"這個案子你們應該都知道,龍山寺前面花一千元買個資後來呢,這個嫌犯原來他的動機是因為他好像是要去買什麼...爬沁狗,對對對,他好像是去買爬沁狗這個點數還是什麼的這樣"},{"start":729.947,"end":759.307,"text":"可是我認為持續宣導這件事情非常的重要因為現在每一個人雖然大家好像以為都有手機好像每個人都有LINE帳號好像每個人都會上網好像每個人都會看新聞好像每個人都會看報紙但是偏偏就還是有很多人他好像都不在這些資訊放送範圍之內他就是還是會到龍三寺這樣的案例前面拿他的雙證件去換取一千塊在防詐宣導的部分你們今年有沒有什麼新的想法跟作為我說明年明年開始"},{"start":761.769,"end":765.934,"text":"因為就於傳統的管道我認為大家都清楚了跟委員報告我們現在除了"},{"start":767.05,"end":795.189,"text":"網路上的宣導之外我們現在還是針對傳統市場傳統市場然後美容院美容院以及宗教場所OK那我們現在都跟他們合作那未來我們跟包括超商還有咖啡廳這一些民眾消費的場所我們也會持續來合作那我們今年已經開始在去年紅布條我們有第一批下去我們今年第二波再更新所以我們的報告重點第一個在去年是LINE詐騙"},{"start":795.99,"end":810.71,"text":"那在今年開始是假檢警的部分所以我們每一年每一年我們有針對不同的主題那今年因為行政院有這個普發現金的這樣的一個政策所以我們今年對普發現金一萬塊我們也有進行相關的這樣的宣導"},{"start":811.547,"end":839.468,"text":"好那會後可不可以再麻煩你們把相關要進行不管是假檢警或是LINE或是剛剛指揮官您所說的美容院啊宗教場所啊超商啊咖啡店這些你們相關要進行的業務範圍可不可以再給我們辦公室一份報告可以可以好簡單的已經有了給我們就可以了讓我們知道到底深入民間我們還可以做哪些事情那我們辦公室當然也會持續協助收集民意到底還有哪多更多地方是人們有趣的但可能是你們漏掉的好嗎好的謝謝文憶支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d17d5151dbe51647387119a7747a4c5c6cf2a9d4295e9d8f3af952555c339954dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:43:08 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農業部長 陳副部長晚一點再請農業部我們陳俊記 陳部長委員好主席長你好我想這一個特別預算當中直接補助地方政府花蓮政府就高達79億"},{"start":20.25,"end":38.221,"text":"這樣的情況底下比例有高達三成其實我看起來是不太合理而且在外界有非常的質疑過去花蓮縣政府在散款亂花還有去拔條阿咖二來執行能力在這次救災的過程當中看起來就跨跨卡丘其實明顯不足"},{"start":39.682,"end":62.243,"text":"第三連審計部這113年的決算報告來看花蓮列館的重大的公共建設的預算就高達21億而且執行率只有70%在這種情況底下花蓮明年的預算因為統籌這個款項要增加已經暴增了100多億人力沒有增加再加上風災每年又給20億的情況底下"},{"start":62.964,"end":92.374,"text":"我覺得主席長這邊有沒有可能建立一個撥款的機制是用一季或半年或執行率什麼方式而且要延近流用的方式來做控管有沒有可能用這種機制這樣以招供信他主要是有分年他有分年來執行他是譬如說如果馬太安溪的部分他是到119年我知道這本身就有分差不多四年分了五年我知道是 所以整個部分也是一般工程都按進度是在撥款"},{"start":92.714,"end":114.122,"text":"對啊 你要控管好而且盈進流用啊否則的話這個預算這樣編列它本身你就已經補助它高達三成79億了喔那加上其他委託地方政府補助的這個款項還沒有計算出來會更高喔所以我是要請主計長這個部分嚴格這個控管主計長你稍微休息一下"},{"start":114.662,"end":120.764,"text":"我再舉一個例子給你聽我要跟農業部長對話你注意聽你先在旁邊聽一下因為裡頭還有編了一筆所謂的農業復興這個費用高達27億那裡頭27億當中有7.5億來作為所謂的農地重劃費用"},{"start":132.421,"end":155.943,"text":"一個花蓮才100多公頃 編了7.5億部長你知道你全年度編多少嗎農業部114年到117年 4年才編4億4年才編4億 1年才1億一個花蓮居然就高達7.5億面積比例跟時間相對完全不符"},{"start":156.563,"end":183.788,"text":"我跟委員報告這次在馬太安光復災區的部分跟對面的鳳林光復的部分大概有246公頃是屬於它的土石是超過50公分的我們在規劃說它做土地重劃的時候一定要居民第一個同意而且土地重劃有相關的委員會他會實際的去監督問題他們是連地主談都沒有談地主的意願都不清楚了情況底下總共100多公頃的重劃居然高達7.5億"},{"start":185.928,"end":210.424,"text":"我側面還聽說反正到時候這筆錢就是給農給花蓮縣政府到時候他們也留院也可以執行掉可以這樣隨便留用嗎我想跟委員報告我們絕對不會說把錢撥出去到縣政府就結束了因為土地重劃有一個委員會有相關的非常嚴謹的一個規定是在做這個處理而且他的面積未來如果說居民經過討論了以後面積沒那麼大的時候經費就會縮編對"},{"start":212.472,"end":222.276,"text":"不是大筆一揮要多少就給多少怎麼用中央政府兩手一攤就不管絕對不能有這種事情發生好不好接下來請財政部長"},{"start":227.444,"end":249.689,"text":"財政部長 部長對財法法的修法對你每次都是和顏悅色對藍白的修法現在已經二上加二還是沒有看到你出來表示任何意見只有國庫署署長出來講話而已那三個縣市之所以會反對版本那原因在哪裡因為他們既得利益者嘛"},{"start":249.929,"end":276.47,"text":"那整個將來財化法的整個精神會破壞殆盡這種情況底下我從來沒有看到您表態而且在整個特別預算的部分現階段特別預算當中已經有兩個在執行新式戰機的採購特別預算跟海空戰力提升的一個特別預算在執行接下來明年還有三個特別預算要執行當然是颱風還有國安任性以及包括馬太安制三個特別預算要執行到底這個部分會不會造成整個財政結構的一個惡化"},{"start":278.692,"end":299.499,"text":"都沒有聽到你說明部長你的態度怎麼樣跟委員報告確實在上個禮拜我們先說上個禮拜五三讀通過的財化法要求中央債增加四出2646億那如果這樣子的話加上115年度的總預算原先要舉借的2992億加起來總共要5638億這個就是"},{"start":304.12,"end":318.408,"text":"這個部分那這個部分呢就已經超過了公債法裡面的債務流量上限的15%所以這是不可以的那另外就是幾項特別預算我們目前都在執行當中那當然這個舉借數會再增加上去"},{"start":322.37,"end":325.052,"text":"那中央其實這幾年非常重視所謂的財政紀律第一個他會突破15%的上限那第二個他會不會排擠到明年的這個新的這個台灣神盾的一個國防預算那高達預算7000到1.2兆之間的可能性有沒有可能"},{"start":340.806,"end":356.686,"text":"這個部分當然整個財政是一個大的支援如果這樣在妥善的分配上應該要考量第一個 中央的財政要穩健除了我們要提升地方的財政的自主性之外要堅固財政的穩定跟韌性是一定要做的"},{"start":360.559,"end":388.069,"text":"當然會受影響中央的施政的量一定會受影響的受影響的情況底下接下來如果說我們這個財法法明知道行政院長已經要來拜會立法院長要進行對話針對總預算跟財法法的同時突然有遭到突襲修法的情況底下如果整個朝野之間沒有辦法對話採取對立的情況底下那我問一下財政部長後續有沒有可能採取行政抵抗權"},{"start":391.068,"end":412.695,"text":"這個部分當然院長已經會跟立法院會一起做協調我必須要跟委員報告我們應該是更積極的就是我們會提出院版的裁劃法我們希望院版裁劃法做一個更合理性老師妳的積極都拖了很久的積極這一次才會感受到比較急原來還拖到年底我幫問妳問了幾次了通常沒有急過"},{"start":414.556,"end":424.348,"text":"我們這個部分已經報行政院 明天會提報院會來討論好啦 積極對話啦 必要的時候對立啦抵抗權 該行使就行使啦好 謝謝郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"165567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1dc10ddadb1440fce56e0913f8e9ddf6f9ed37f72173c5d0936b0844119b6f4c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:52:49 - 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我想知道你認識這個羅維仁嗎有見過面你有跟他深談過嗎 有交換過什麼意見嗎就是我以前當台積電董事的時候當然有做過一些說明那你認為這個人的人品如何"},{"start":55.512,"end":58.32,"text":"你客觀判斷當初覺得還不錯那現在是不是覺得判斷錯誤了"},{"start":64.254,"end":87.083,"text":"就是說有一點意料之外意料之外吧真的就是大家都難以想像說台積電的資深副總而且是掌管研發的資深副總在卸任之後馬上可以到對家去上班完全沒有禁業禁止然後也沒有旋轉門條款你覺得這個合理嗎因為"},{"start":90.492,"end":103.283,"text":"理論上競業晉職他要簽署事實上之前要簽署是那這個是說他不能到其他地方去任職而且他還是公園院的院士耶然後他在離職之前印了20幾箱有關於這個2奈米的先進製程什麼A7 A10全部資料都印走了你覺得這是妥當的嗎"},{"start":119.774,"end":146.193,"text":"這個實際上到底運走了什麼可能要由台積電比較清楚說明是 但是本席今天在這裡要提醒部長台積電大家都說是我們的護國神山結果我們護國神山就從裡面大家都中空把它挖走所以希望部長一定要能夠關心這個案子希望未來不要再發生這個類似的情形如果假設別人說他也可以"},{"start":147.774,"end":161.67,"text":"別人也覺得我也可以呀 是不是所以 高檢署已經啟動了是不是違反國安法的一些調查那我想我們經濟部也會全力來配合那這是屬於國安層次是 當然 至於第二個層次"},{"start":162.629,"end":170.821,"text":"整體產業的影響我們也會看看這個持續的關注它有沒有會造成利害所以這一點我也希望說部長不是只有關心這個個案而是要怎麼樣保護整個產業你要能夠"},{"start":179.053,"end":203.405,"text":"提出一些可能規範讓這個產業是有規範的否則大家都覺得他可以我也可以哇那他這樣子出去薪水又更高搞不好那資料還賣錢對不對我們我在這裡提醒部長那接下來我想要請教部長包括還有中郵董事長現在三接的弊案國人相當關心我們請中郵董事長"},{"start":205.885,"end":226.991,"text":"那2021年為了這個行政院宣布說為了保護生態環境那三接必須要外推455公尺的時候那個時候行政院說這個工程需要增加150億那當時規劃的總經費是多少部長或董事長知道嗎"},{"start":228.186,"end":244.518,"text":"是當時所講的工程經費增加150億那是就外推的部分去做說明但是實際上最後是增加了305億305億我知道所以我就想知道說既然行政院"},{"start":245.018,"end":248.199,"text":"說增加150億就能完成外推那實際總經費從660億變成965億整整多了305億那多出來這一倍的經費305億從150億到305億是多了一倍耶那這些錢到底用在哪裡是 因為還有其他的因素 譬如說物價的一個調整譬如說環境的因素啦"},{"start":274.385,"end":279.24,"text":"或者是說一些間接工程假設工程這些等等的增加"},{"start":279.878,"end":305.287,"text":"董事長我同意就是說但是你這些新增的工程到目前為止本席包括立法院今天的書面報告都沒有這些東西應該是說假設照你講的原物料調漲然後什麼樣工程調漲這些應該都要有細項而且應該都是有市價可以就是讓大家公平來評斷的"},{"start":307.145,"end":330.222,"text":"那為什麼你不列出來呢你要讓大家覺得它是一個弊案呢如果你把這些事情一項一項細項都列出來提供給各位委員誰還可以說你這個是弊案但是你沒有啊本席已經問了非常多次就說可不可以提供一下這個細項讓我們理解一下到底增加在哪裡"},{"start":331.482,"end":338.967,"text":"中油沒有提供任何資料甚至今天送到委員會的書面資料有寫說這305億用在哪裡嗎有嗎"},{"start":344.919,"end":363.495,"text":"沒有仔細交代就是沒有告訴大家說如果假設你的這個增加是經得起考驗的你一項一項列出來就是經得起考驗嘛那我也希望說中郵真的不要覺得說可以規避立法院的監督那當初行政院也公開說只會增加150億結果"},{"start":365.757,"end":380.375,"text":"增加105億都沒有任何的說明那所以今天我想要請問不只是部長還有董事長就是除了檢調現在在偵辦之外呢中油內部的行政調查什麼時候可以公布"},{"start":383.117,"end":400.862,"text":"我們行政調查的部分是已經開始了那麼我們是期望能夠盡早完成盡早完成你有一個內部你自己的心理期程嗎我們目標是在12月中把它完成12月中可以完成所以12月中我們應該就會知道你們內部調查的結果是這樣嗎是 我們目標這樣子"},{"start":402.563,"end":426.613,"text":"好 努力那第二個是305億追加的這個經費項目細項什麼時候可以完整的公布呢是不是會後我再補充資料給委員好 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是這樣子嗎我在講中油的財務狀況2022年虧損2144億2023年虧損169億2024年再虧355億負債比已經高達93%"},{"start":567.938,"end":569.599,"text":"2025年上半年再虧159億這當然有因應能源價格穩定民生的責任但是這種花錢的態度這種大手大腳花錢的態度才是中油虧損的主因"},{"start":585.126,"end":594.634,"text":"那我真的很不能理解說怎麼會一個負債累累的公司早就如果假設是民營企業應該每一塊錢都斤斤計較結果在法務部上個禮拜法務部調查局廉政署的報告裡面都寫得很清楚所有國營事業裡面中油貪賭的案件就是最多的"},{"start":608.536,"end":623.152,"text":"所以呢這個社會當然會質疑說是不是有亂花錢那這個才是三接必按大家會這麼重視的這麼嚴重的一個地方所以董事長我希望你內部也要整頓啊"},{"start":624.193,"end":650.553,"text":"你是不是內部要整頓一下 部長你也要監督他們呀否則怎麼會連連法務部連這個調查局 連政署都說中油是這個弊案最多 貪賭最多的那也希望說這個部長一定要努力監督他們中油能不能重新獲得社會的信任就看董事長願不願意趕快整頓而且呢內部的行政調查報告也要盡快的公布啊好不好"},{"start":654.036,"end":654.957,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1bbfe8c187ff72e1a7119a7747a4c5c6cf2a9d4295e9d8f3a0630bd2d7ebc433a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:35:09 - 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各位先進有請財政部長 主計長還有經濟部的賴常務次長還有衛福部的次長"},{"start":23.408,"end":29.452,"text":"呂政府次長一起來我就不要 等一下不要浪費時間我也好好 幾位長官好這個你們昨天啊這哪一位回答我 處紀長是不是昨天中央政府找的地方是我們去開會嘛結果人家批評你們啦"},{"start":43.208,"end":68.301,"text":"只有兩張的A4 然後什麼資料也沒有沒有基於計算的公式 沒有補助的金額 沒有分配的比例水平分配也統統沒有 什麼都沒有就說 突然你就換話 說喔 除了雙北市以外 更新市都支持 誇了鬼喔人家好幾個人打電話給我說 根本亂講一通啊你們在認知作戰喔"},{"start":70.522,"end":85.977,"text":"來 你講報告委員 昨天重點在談市權的劃分那這裡面市權的劃分什麼資料都沒有啊給多少錢你沒有啊市權的劃分主要是包括不是啊 好啦我時間有限 你不要講重點好不好是是是"},{"start":86.457,"end":100.874,"text":"我就問你有沒有計算公司計算公司是在台灣華裡面的所以我們昨天沒有在談第二個有沒有各縣市的分配比例比如說台北市要拿多少 有沒有"},{"start":101.554,"end":130.24,"text":"我們是在談事權嘛不是在談分配的比率嘛所以事權我們是談一般性的補助還有計劃型的補助所以等於以114年度的一個一般性所以你昨天的開會就是談事權的架構和劃分這個花唬爛啦 這個東西啊欺世盜名啊 人家講得哇 好了不起啊那我就問你一個你們現在根據你們行政院版本有了嘛 對不對 有"},{"start":131.658,"end":138.825,"text":"有齁 那到底要給地方政府統籌文備稅款多少錢要給多少錢來來來 財政部要給多少錢 現在"},{"start":143.566,"end":166.403,"text":"跟委員報告 彩化法這個部分在明天會提報院會討論在院會通過後我們在記者會會做詳細的說明那剛剛您提到所謂水平分配的公式沒有揭露其實在我們10月21號的時候已經把水平分配的公式權重還有它的指標都已經說而這個指標也是歷經幾次會議以後縮小了"},{"start":169.005,"end":173.328,"text":"中央跟地方是不是66比34我問你這個中央跟地方這個部分在明天的會議裡面會議做討論以後就會對外詳細說明跟委員報告中央統籌分配稅款的規模會比114年擴大那麼我們在這個垂直分配的部分全權會做合一的下放這個部分是可以跟委員做下放好 那我就問你具體的"},{"start":194.185,"end":200.448,"text":"我們原來按照原來的是你們給地方4100多億按照你們新的版本是不是比這個還多跟委員報告在115年來算的話總體中將釋出的是一兆1683億除了中央統籌分配稅款有8874億還有一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款但是在我們的新的版本裡面會比這個"},{"start":223.138,"end":248.993,"text":"我們這邊通過的這個我們預計我們的幅度不會比這個小我們的規模不會比一兆一千六百來的小沒有沒有沒有我沒有聽得懂一兆一千是全部的是不是是全部的就是統籌加一般加補助統籌加一般加計劃型補助款那就明年度比這個還多我們會比這個也就這個因為這個一兆一千多是根據去年底通過的財劃法那我就問你"},{"start":250.134,"end":254.515,"text":"那那個統籌分配稅款是不是維持4100多還是比這個還多這個部分我們明天院會會做討論那院會會記者會會跟各位報告那這個部分呢其實我們會有考量到就是說中央統籌分配稅款裡面要除了錢的下放之外也就剛剛主席講說的事權也要做調整那事權做調整就屬於地方自治的事項你回答我嘛 你一直沒回答我說"},{"start":279.322,"end":283.41,"text":"有沒有增加嘛 有沒有比4000多億增加嘛這個4100多億其實當時我們在規劃"},{"start":288.263,"end":304.394,"text":"國民黨團這個版本其實是沒有經過這個相關的事權的調整而就直接這樣定了我們那個當時認為就是一個不合理的狀況所以也就是說你4100多億你還是承認啊我沒有說是維持4100多億就比這個還多我們會做合一的規劃這個還是不講就對了來第二個問題那個"},{"start":316.445,"end":341.184,"text":"我那個資料啊那個嘉樂園啊 到底誰管的嘉樂園誰管的委員好 這個載具啊這是嘉樂園市面上買得到的什麼標示都沒有 沒有CMS 什麼都沒有在裡面有這個東西"},{"start":343.488,"end":369.512,"text":"這個是假的 這也不是真的所以然後呢 裡面的電池是中國大陸的電池就現在市面上買得到的加熱煙他沒有CMS 什麼標示都沒有我去查了半天經濟部 到底是經濟部還是財政部還是衛福部前往衛福部說是經濟部 財政部說是他沒有在管然後衛福部說是經濟部 到底誰管經濟部長官不要講一下"},{"start":372.069,"end":375.813,"text":"經濟部長官這個載具啊載具啊是不是你管的"},{"start":380.494,"end":402.385,"text":"這個沒有在我們應實施商品檢驗的這個部分的話就不是我們但依照這個衛福部他針對開加熱菸的這個他有相關的一個規範標示的規範衛福部長官衛福部是你們管的嗎我們主要是負責有關標示的部分他外面沒有標示啊"},{"start":403.939,"end":427.559,"text":"都沒有標示啊 這個在市面上都買得到啊這是你們管的 還是經濟部管的衛福部是負責標示的部分沒錯你們管標示 經濟部管載具你們要功能負責啊 到現在市面上就買到這個什麼標示都沒有結果一問大家踢啤酒經濟部踢給財政部 財政部踢給衛福部衛福部踢給經濟部"},{"start":431.448,"end":444.217,"text":"我們是不是我做一個建議來答應好不好你對於加熱煙的相關的管理這個載具的管理"},{"start":445.475,"end":452.18,"text":"一個禮拜內給我報告可以嗎你們三個單位共同負責一個單位給我可以吧因為這個載具是經濟部管的所以經濟部負責統籌就聯繫那個財政部還有那個衛福部一起來好不好 請經濟部主管謝謝謝委員請就一個禮拜之內提出書面的一個報告好 謝謝賴司法委員"}]}},{"id":"165557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d129c087e3c63778d856e0913f8e9ddf6ff2a9d4295e9d8f3a06b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:31:13 - 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這個就是我們尊重地方政府他來認定 因為他比較清楚"},{"start":176.923,"end":197.981,"text":"因為他在地嘛他很清楚這個豬肉攤他到底過去有沒有在營業嘛只要他認定了我們就認定就沒有問題如果是這樣的話我想可能也要請這個經濟部通函或者是讓各縣市政府很清楚的知道我們的認定標準不會只有在傳統市場之內"},{"start":199.181,"end":215.172,"text":"比如說像這一些偏鄉的街邊的在自己自家騎樓的這一些豬肉攤商受到影響的我們一律都是可以認列可以造冊讓地方政府趕快下去做這一些這一方面的協助可以嗎這個部分是不是能夠請經濟部今天"},{"start":216.829,"end":244.931,"text":"之前我們已經有發新聞稿那我們可以再發沒有問題你的新聞稿可能寫得不清不楚啦所以我看不只高雄市政府應該還有其他的地方他們其實對於這個列管造冊其實是有一些疑慮到底應該怎麼做這個我想要請部長我們跟高雄市政府有溝通了他們也理解了所以就儘快來做好這個可能要請基金部儘快部長那我要接下來要請教這個比較"},{"start":246.892,"end":264.641,"text":"重大的時事議題這個這兩天大概討論非常多包括這個就是有關於台積電的前資深副總是不是帶走了先進製程這些資料那我看昨天媒體有請教經濟部您的回答是說這個應該由台積電來"},{"start":267.768,"end":293.07,"text":"回應嘛部長我要請教就這件事情上面其實牽扯到的是整個他有可能會涉及到國安法這是國家先進製程這個是非常核心的這些製程站在國家的立場上面站在經濟部的立場上面部長您對這件事情的看法是什麼你對這件事情的初步了解是什麼能不能在這裡跟大家說明一下跟本席說明一下"},{"start":293.706,"end":308.741,"text":"是 报告委员这个有三个层面来探讨第一个就是您刚才提到的国家安全层次的问题第二个层次就是整体的产业利益的问题第三个才是个别企业它的利益"},{"start":309.707,"end":337.07,"text":"那就国安城市来讲的话我们要确定就是说这件事情是不是有危害到国家的利益跟安全那现在您看到了这个高检署已经开始在调查那我想我们经济部会配合他调查因为什么样的这个核心技术这个是我们定的那我们会充分的跟高检署来做说明那当然什么样的资料被带走这个要由台积电他来认定"},{"start":337.745,"end":355.282,"text":"那我們來認定說這個被帶走的這些相關技術是不是符合國家關鍵的技術那這個我們可以充分的負責說明所以台積電的部分跟經濟部這邊做接觸了嗎就到底他被帶走的資料或者是說認定上哪一些關鍵基礎的這個是屬於核心資料的這個部分"},{"start":361.387,"end":379.065,"text":"你們有進一步的做溝通進一步做討論了嗎就這件事情上面我們有請同仁去了解啦但是就是說到底被帶走什麼樣的資訊我想這個是屬於台積電他的營業秘密啦這個我們不好替他說明如果他說明了也要由他來做說明"},{"start":379.687,"end":402.643,"text":"那我们就讲说企业端的它的相关的是不是符合行业秘密我们也会跟这些公司来做合作他如果需要我们协助提出这个营业秘密的诉讼的话那我们也协助他那至于第三个层次就是整体产业利益的部分那我们会持续的关注这个议题会不会影响到我们整个"},{"start":403.463,"end":417.811,"text":"半導體的供應鏈的影響或衝擊或者是對於這些客戶會不會有所影響我們會持續的關注我想這件事情應該也要把它列為經濟部現在現階段一個很重要的關心的議題"},{"start":418.752,"end":447.32,"text":"这个关乎到国内的所有的这些半导体产业的发展这个不只是台积电的有可能面临到它的核心基础的这些资讯被窃这个关乎到整个半导体的产业链的基础发展对于国家整体的经济发展是非常重要的所以我要请经济部要密切的而且要百分之百能够掌握这一些进度这个能够做得到吗我们会持续的关注这个议题好"},{"start":448.18,"end":462.476,"text":"那接下來我要請教這個主席今天排定的這個議題三接的這個 到底這個預算是不是真的如媒體的爆料要求說你們加價啦 增加一點啦到底這個預算"},{"start":465.471,"end":482.651,"text":"從94%暴增到最後的253%大家看到這個帳面數字都會覺得中油真的這麼有錢這工程真的可以這樣亂編但是我剛剛看中油的這些報告裡頭其實並沒有很清楚的寫出比如說你的預算要從94億增加到253億"},{"start":484.133,"end":495.795,"text":"你勢必要經過很多內部公司的討論你的變更計畫包括變更的預算規劃這個應該是公司內部都要經過很多次的討論跟很多次的這一些"},{"start":497.347,"end":514.185,"text":"會議嘛 對不對那這一些會議有沒有可能在不涉及你們內部的機密的狀態之下能夠讓外界甚或事實上立法院很清楚的知道在你們整體的決策過程裡頭到底是怎麼樣處理這個事情"},{"start":515.259,"end":539.136,"text":"我沒有看到中郵很完整的去說明這一段那如果持續的被有心人士這樣操作的話那檢調的調查 司法的調查還沒有完整以前其實中郵就已經被判了未審先判就被已經判定有罪了中郵能不能去就這一點去做更完整的說明"},{"start":539.98,"end":558.382,"text":"有沒有可能 董事長報告員 就是在我的書面報告裡面已經有提到了我們這個案子是委託台灣世西去做預算編列 設計以及預算編列所以對公司而言 我們收到的第一板就是238.4億"},{"start":560.919,"end":565.403,"text":"沒有出現過94億 120億 150億這些數字從來沒有也就從238.4億之後呢依照採購法來去辦理相關的程序最後預算的決定是253億那你們這個有針對這樣的報導去提出反駁嗎"},{"start":582.264,"end":601.239,"text":"沒有 只有在立法院報告的時候有提到這一部分所以包括媒體這樣的報導從94億到122億到253億您現在提出來說世西提出的第一版的預算編列世西顧問公司在規劃的時候是你說多少 293億啊238億到最後定案的是253億那這個過程裡面"},{"start":611.107,"end":621.312,"text":"我認為應該要再對外界做更清楚的說明事實上我們也已經對外做了一個說明新聞稿也做這樣一個同樣的說明"},{"start":624.08,"end":651.606,"text":"這個事情現在應該檢調也開始介入調查嘛所以有一些相關的資料你們應該要提供給檢調的或者是說中油在內部對於整個這個預算的編定整個工程的計畫其實中油應該如果有機會的話其實還是要對外示意啦否則你讓有心人一直不斷的醜話一直不斷的抹黑"},{"start":652.745,"end":675.677,"text":"這是我剛剛所講的那到底有沒有這樣的公安疑雲有沒有這樣的所謂的錄音疑雲有沒有這樣的預算膨脹我覺得這個對於國人來講其實是非常關心的三接的工程這個預算到底是怎麼編列世西當時的估算是什麼世西也可以出來講清楚啊"},{"start":676.787,"end":696.327,"text":"對不對你要讓大家知道你這個工程是要怎麼做為什麼會變成這麼多錢即使世新原來規劃是238億到你後來最終決定的是253億這個中間還是有個十幾億的落差嘛那這個十幾億的落差是怎麼來的我覺得你們還是要對外能夠說明清楚好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1200dcac10d2e9fb963294d83d43b212bf2a9d4295e9d8f3a76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"09:29:29 - 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有請顧部長是 林委員好"},{"start":12.898,"end":37.157,"text":"部長早最近這幾天中國解放軍對外的動作非常多首先是上週六發動了聯合戰備的警訊派出了大批的軍機艦故意騷擾我們台灣周圍的海空域然後前天禮拜一到今天又在黃海進行海空實彈的軍演那請問部長那國防部判斷中共最近這兩次進行軍事行動的目的是什麼"},{"start":37.857,"end":40.3,"text":"是為了回應美國對台灣軍售的表達抗議嗎還是為了應對美國日本和菲律賓和南海的共同軍演還是為了回應日本高市早苗的首相最近談判的台灣有事的這個整個的言論呢"},{"start":55.697,"end":79.988,"text":"聯合戰備警巡我們都會充分明確掌握他的相關的一些實施的狀況那現在當然判斷還是一個週期性的一個聯合戰備警巡的一些作為那面對這樣的共軍的派遣軍機艦在逼近我們的固有的領土這樣國軍有沒有什麼進行跟監反制還是有沒有什麼比較積極的作為"},{"start":81.519,"end":100.967,"text":"您說跟針對他們的聯合戰備警訊嗎我們都會依照我們的這個突發狀況處置規定來及時應處然後是這個他們的這個真火的威脅程度我們會來看怎麼樣子部署相關的兵火力來應處威脅"},{"start":103.567,"end":119.905,"text":"我想細節的部分可能不太適宜來做一個公開的討論但是我們面對這個中國在我們周遭所進行的這些相關的這些沒關係 部長可以答就答如果是機密的方面你就可以斟酌對 我們都會適切的來應酬"},{"start":123.013,"end":126.595,"text":"再請教部長一個立場性的問題請問我們國防部到底有沒有把釣魚台視為領土呢就是因為釣魚台是不是也是在我們的防空識別區裡面為什麼每次公居在釣魚台周邊在活動的時候我們台灣卻是透過日本防衛省公布的資訊才知道部長 我們國防部現在到底"},{"start":145.726,"end":173.969,"text":"是否會驅離在釣魚台附近的活動的中共軍機艦呢還是根本我們就消極不管還是就是也不敢管還是反正日本的自衛隊會去管會去驅離所以我們就也不理我們在我們的應變區內我們都加以會加以世界的處置那我們有一個應變區的一個範圍那這個部分它相關不管是在釣魚台周邊的活動或者是"},{"start":175.735,"end":199.243,"text":"進入那個他有些狀況情況之下確實都會進入我們的應變區那我們都會加以來處置所以還是會處理是嗎對其實他進入應變區我們都會處置那從近期的區域的其實發現感覺中國開始刻意對太平洋周章國家都進行干擾並和太平洋周邊的國家發生一些摩擦中國也開始擴大灰色地帶行動的範圍從釣魚"},{"start":201.864,"end":205.549,"text":"到南海都有但是對台灣的侵擾是最頻繁的可以請問部長國防部隊針對這些區域的情勢發展還有中國各種對外的侵擾的行動有沒有掌握還是有沒有了解這整個狀況"},{"start":219.383,"end":237.258,"text":"我們對整個區域情勢的動態我們都要加以掌握我們都要加以掌握這個區域當然也包括了你講的包括東海的情勢也包括南海的區域情勢當然對台海周邊的區域情勢我們也要全部加以掌握"},{"start":239.557,"end":257.926,"text":"那在接下來的話就是再問一下就是最近美國陸軍的部長受訪的時候有爆料說美國的大型國防承包商騙美軍買了超貴的零件這邊報導更具體的提到是黑鷹直升機的一個螢幕的旋鈕那在整機採購的時候要價高達47000美元"},{"start":263.368,"end":266.669,"text":"我看換成台幣的匯率的話大概是新台幣150萬左右那請問部長我們台灣是否也有向美國採購60架與美軍相同型號的黑鷹直升機呢因為這個型號採用的是玻璃化的座窗可是看起來好像應該也是有螢幕上面的旋鈕那部長當初採購這個是不是我們有採購呢還是我們有沒有"},{"start":290.134,"end":313.246,"text":"一些相關的料件就是整個買貴的呢部長有瞭解嗎我們軍售案在獲得美方提供報價資料跟發料書文件的時候都會由需求單位就是各軍種會運用一些仿商的這個巡價的收集報價資料還有歷史的採購比較做一些比對那至於剛剛委員問的比較細節那個部分是不是請陸選"},{"start":315.135,"end":338.665,"text":"簡單向委員報告我們的黑鷹的相關的料件是循軍售管道那委員所關切這個案子是是美國他們本身自己美國的黑鷹發生的問題那我們雖然是循軍售管道但是相關的督管機制包含到聯邦政府的責任署還有美國國防部的督察辦公室還有其他的省監單位也都會協助我們如果我們對這些價格"},{"start":339.485,"end":354.385,"text":"感覺有異的話我們都會反映到到這個美國這些上述的管道那目前我們所採購的是有相關的訂單有採購相關的零附件但目前在價格上面並沒有如美軍他本身自己的飛機採購的這個情勢"},{"start":357.585,"end":362.008,"text":"所以國防部到底有沒有人力集合和發現我們對美國這些軍事採購是不是有被當鎧子還是有沒有買到比別人貴的軍購你們有去集合過嗎還是只是等到美國政府自己發現然後我們就後知後覺等待通知"},{"start":374.497,"end":387.484,"text":"除了我們國防部自己內部有會去了解之外審計部也都會到我們的軍總也包含到我們的美團去做相關的戰務的了解是否有委員該所述這個情勢"},{"start":389.056,"end":406.461,"text":"好那我再問一個問題就是那當初的愛國者飛彈結果是靠美國政府主動發現的像這一件事情他告知台灣被多收了新台幣52億那這一筆錢後來如何處理了呢美方已經退款了嗎還是不了了之呢您講的是那個雷神的就是52億的全部都退了全部都退回來了就對了"},{"start":416.192,"end":420.315,"text":"那我還是提醒一下部長這前幾天美國才宣布軍售台灣價值新台幣102億的戰機零副料件在美國的安和局的新聞稿中有提到軍售品項包含了非自式的零件這表示裡面有一些特規的零件或者是庫存比較久的零件無論具體是什麼非自式的零件表示美方可能是沒有在使用也就是我們可能會比較難做到比較"},{"start":443.211,"end":472.054,"text":"所以這邊提醒一下國防部未來可能要緊盯一下這整個軍購的內容絕對是不可以被買貴了請國防部未來一定要謹慎是 鮑委員那個因為我們這一個飛機航才的合約它是一個開口式的多年度的合約那各個項目裡面我們除了在接下來諮會國會之後進入預約程序我們會逐項的去檢視之外在它後續交運的時候我們也會透過駐美跟在台接收的兩個管道針對所有"},{"start":473.284,"end":480.062,"text":"行財跟其他料件的部分我們會做一個深入的檢視只要有問題我們就會尋管道來更換或是索賠"},{"start":481.616,"end":487.042,"text":"好那還有一個問題就是我們針對美軍採購的軍事的採購的方面就是說美國政府在8月所有通過通知韓國政府說決定要取消透過軍售管道採購武器的時候又可以採用非經常性的費用的豁免政策但是美國一旦取消這種不必分攤研發測試的這種"},{"start":503.72,"end":507.944,"text":"費用的優惠以後美國採購的整個裝備可能我們要付一筆費用大概是5%左右的費用也就是說其他報導是說日本澳洲還有其他北約成員國都有收到這樣的優惠被取消那請教部長一下我們對美國軍購的時候美國有沒有給我們像日本韓國澳洲這種豁免的優惠呢現在的情況是怎樣"},{"start":528.326,"end":544.451,"text":"報告委員軍購的軍品項目的那個研發費用一般而言他都會加在所有產製的項目裡面他是產製的一部分但是針對日韓跟澳洲的部分他們之前有"},{"start":545.652,"end":560.624,"text":"針對特定共同研發的品項優惠的那個部分那是另外算一般而言只要屬於通用的項目所有的國家都一體施用我們也沒有收到任何通知我們要被加收研發費這件事情"},{"start":561.641,"end":574.87,"text":"所以到現在還沒有就對了沒有 目前我們都是按照正常的走而且我們在每一次的專案管理會議裡面還是會爭取各個項目當它產製數量增加研發攤費必須下修的時候會繼續跟美方做爭取好 謝謝"},{"start":577.659,"end":584.367,"text":"好然後接下來的問題就是我知道國軍最近有引進了HRV就是自律神經檢測透過機器輔助的這個方式幫助官兵提早發現一些問題目前HRV目前是旅警單位都有配一台是嗎是這樣嗎那海軍空軍也是這樣嗎"},{"start":600.083,"end":627.798,"text":"委員好 我是夜管政動處的處長那有關於HRV的佩附的部分我們是在各地 各心理衛生中心都有佩附一台那現在是陸軍有 海軍也有 空軍也都有嗎都有因為我現在就是為什麼會這樣問因為辦公室最近有收到一些新府官的陳情他們說HRV這種透過量化的方式會對及早發現的那個疾病的問題是非常有幫助的但是問題就是說幫一個"},{"start":629.599,"end":632.32,"text":"幫一位官兵測試一次他們禁止不動至少要5分鐘120個人測試的時候要花到10個小時如果編制大概4400個人的裝部旅這樣做完大約367個小時這裡面還要加上實際執行的人員一個一個替換的時間還不能保證可以完美的禁止5分鐘所以實際上花的時間可能更久"},{"start":653.029,"end":655.79,"text":"所以HRV這個東西既然那麼好用我覺得它也是可以有一些可以馬上及早發現一些問題所以我想身體的疾病是預防勝於治療啦尤其是國軍官兵是要站在第一線保護國家的人所以疾病的預防是非常重要的而且要提早發現"},{"start":673.195,"end":690.689,"text":"所以我想透過科學方式提早發現這個是好的那治療的成功的機率就會比較提高那是不是國防部有去了解各單位使用的狀況因為現在很多人要使用所以這樣爭奪看是不是增加人員還是是不是有增購協助官兵的進行檢測呢"},{"start":692.749,"end":720.322,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為現在HRV包含我們今年已經開始在做這些器材的替換或是用更多人的方式來協助官兵使用HRV所以這部分都還在進行當中那麼我想委員的關心我們回去會納入研究看是要增加HRV的數量或者是採用更先進的一個器材"},{"start":721.678,"end":724.206,"text":"因為國軍官兵的健康還是很重要的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d11957e3d5ab60db2963294d83d43b212bf2a9d4295e9d8f3a61f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:19:05 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部長有關國軍心理衛生制度跟如何減少國軍智商的這一題其實在去年6月的時候呢本席也曾經跟部長做過這個議題的這個探討那雖然說我們一直都有三級的防處機制可是我們卻發現有超過八成的智商事件未在初級發掘預防這個階段呢就被及時的這個發現那也許是因為個案它的壓力"},{"start":39.594,"end":54.904,"text":"本身就是來自於上級或者是說他根本就不信任這個機制那所以呢我們發現有些很遺憾的事情就發生了他就用智商的方式來做這個解決那我也記得上次我們也曾經討論過軍中心府人員跟這個專業證照不足的這個問題"},{"start":58.886,"end":79.05,"text":"那我也曾經有要求就是說國防部呢要引進一些民間的這個專業的這個機構來做這個合作那我從今天的報告呢真的有看到國防部呢有做檢討跟做這個改善那國防部呢今年初有啟動的心理健康照護照護方案那我剛才看報告有提到就是說有跟國內328"},{"start":81.611,"end":96.644,"text":"所的民間這個諮商輔導機構來做合作每個人每年有6次每次40分鐘然後這都可以自行去預約也不需要轉介然後也強調不插健保卡不留就醫記錄確保這個私密"},{"start":99.767,"end":114.082,"text":"再來我們有看到身心調適假也是在今年11月也入法了就是說我們的軍官士官志願役的士兵每一年有三天的身心調適假我想請問一下就是說這328所的民間諮詢輔導機構都是衛福部"},{"start":119.768,"end":148.076,"text":"來做引介的嗎是嗎我所了解是說全國有600多家那我們選擇了328所民間的諮商輔導機構來做合作這個是衛福部引介的委員好我是政戰局局長600多家我們都有各地區的行為中心特別發函跟打電話都是來源都是這600多家也都是從衛福部所提供的名單裡面去尋找"},{"start":149.907,"end":176.175,"text":"所以就是說每一家六百多家我們都有去函就是跟他們說是不是要尋求這個合作然後目前有意願的是三百二十八家是的那我想了解就是說因為我們的軍中有軍中的特有的文化那當然還有一些勤務這些訓練壓力等等這些我不曉得很清楚這些三百二十八家對於軍中的文化等等對於我們的整個"},{"start":178.495,"end":201.931,"text":"單位的這個了不了解因為畢竟軍中它在我們在過去的話軍中有軍中的特有文化這個壓力可能不是一般跟民眾可能是所面臨的這個壓力可能這個不是那麼的一樣那這些328所的民間諮詢單位它到底對軍中了不了解 請問"},{"start":203.826,"end":229.294,"text":"委員這個指教也是相當精確就是說一般在民間的這些我們的合作機構他通常會對感情因素、經濟因素或者是家庭因素這些都會比較收行那如果是屬於他這個環境適應因素或者是訓練給他帶來的一些壓力等等所以"},{"start":230.654,"end":239.761,"text":"也許他對這方面軍中的這個事務並不是那麼的熟悉所以我們現在有在規劃我們要跟他們進行一個交流也就是說"},{"start":241.532,"end":262.705,"text":"他們本來講說要做一些教育訓練我說這個應該不叫教育訓練應該是做一個交流就是說我們應該要應該會明年就會來開始進行然後我們會來分北中南東四個地區然後分別跟這些機構來進行交流讓他們來"},{"start":264.921,"end":280.296,"text":"比較充分的理解軍中的這種環境軍中的組織 軍中的訓練因為我有看到就是說我們國軍有邀請這相關的民間單位可能來給我們的這些軍官 可能這些"},{"start":281.677,"end":294.407,"text":"新府人員等等來上一些課程可是我覺得在這之前我反而覺得這328所的民間諮商機構更是要先來了解我們金鐘的整個結構"},{"start":296.088,"end":314.135,"text":"我是覺得這樣子的輔導才能夠到位啦這是我所看到當然部長剛剛也有提到了我們不是叫他們來上課我們要先來做一個交流我想說這是應該要先做互相的了解我覺得這個是一個基本要做的事情"},{"start":315.195,"end":323.439,"text":"這些民間的合作機構能夠更了解軍中的文化環境那這個整體的服務品質我想就能夠提升部長也有發現到這個問題因為我在看這個報告書我想說怎麼沒有讓他們先來了解我們軍動到底是一個怎麼樣的文化結構"},{"start":334.523,"end":348.676,"text":"OK好那再來還有一點就是說我們有提到說那等於是說我們現在是用雙軌的一個方式如果你不想經過這個三級房儲機制的這個國軍你可以尋求這個心理健康照顧"},{"start":349.617,"end":373.916,"text":"方案嘛對不對那我們一再強調就是說要確保這個國軍的這個私密是因為他提到就是說不插健保卡不留就醫記錄就是要保密嘛那類似這樣子的話我們如何在保密的前提之下同時不影響高風險個案的單位在單位裡面的追蹤那當然我有看到就是說你們好像也會經過一個"},{"start":376.078,"end":391.869,"text":"比如說有高風險的會通知這個地區心理衛生中心介入協處嗎那如果這樣子的話這個如果有高風險的這個個案的話也會通報我們國防部嗎會是這樣子嗎我們的做法就是說"},{"start":392.99,"end":414.586,"text":"我們當然核心還是各自保護那無需轉介然後希望能夠主動求助但是如果合作的機構評估他是有具有自殺意圖或高風險的時候他轉介到是轉介到我們的地區衛生中心我們的地區衛生中心就是設在應該是幾個北中南東的醫院裡面四個醫院裡面的"},{"start":417.287,"end":436.915,"text":"因為他們是有證照的這屬於三級的專業處遇或者是到醫院的身心科身心科或者是到這個由這個具有證照的心腹人員來針對這些人來做一個精神醫療跟心理治療這個監獄局可能在"},{"start":438.087,"end":462.334,"text":"要做補充如果說在民間的機構他認為有需要進一步的輔導或者甚至是治療他可以轉到我們醫院的地區行為中心那裡面有心服官有社公司可以協助那如果地區行為中心覺得他需要疾病治療那會轉接到我們的精神科"},{"start":462.734,"end":479.003,"text":"那該門診就門診 該住院就住院可是那軍中會接到通報就是說這個人其實他有高風險也是在單位裡面也要特別注意還是說對於他的這個介入只到這個地區心理衛生中心而已"},{"start":480.143,"end":500.608,"text":"第七心理衛生中心處理以後看他需不需要轉介給精神科醫師不管需不需要轉介跟他的單位的心腹單位都會保持聯繫都會保持聯繫所以會從他的第一級到第二級旅級到心衛中心到精神科這個都是會聯繫的而且都會在保密的狀況之下"},{"start":500.868,"end":515.738,"text":"OK 好了解OK 那再來還有一點就是說我有看到就是說每人每年是六次根據本席所了解就是說像智商剛開始的這個第一個月幾乎每個禮拜固定都要去面談"},{"start":516.659,"end":536.172,"text":"因為這是要建立彼此之間的這個信任嘛所以才想了解這個案主的這個狀況等等所以他對這個的話當然也有我們有在想說是不是在這個前期的時候我們會增加免費諮商的這個次數嘛因為我們看是一年只有六次"},{"start":539.385,"end":550.591,"text":"這個一年要幾次這個部分我們最先開始是參照那個衛福部他有一個心理健康支持方案他是提供三次"},{"start":551.553,"end":572.88,"text":"那我們今年的2月開始實施的時候就是提供6次那這個部分要幾次這個部分我想我們可以來再跟專家學者來研議來再行評估這個有沒有提高的可能性因為這個剛上路可以理解是 因為衛福部那邊我們也會跟他們再商量一下"},{"start":577.802,"end":605.921,"text":"OK 好當然剛剛一開始部長就有提到就是說官兵是捐付保家衛國的這個使命所以身心健康是需要穩定這當然也是站立的這個關鍵當然是說這個議題從過去到現在我們討論了很多當然我也看到了國防部確確實實這一年來確實有在做一些檢討跟改善那真的是我們希望能夠建立一個全方位的心理健康支持這個體系OK 好 以上謝謝"},{"start":606.742,"end":606.943,"text":"好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d147d71494944fa95d7119a7747a4c5c6cf2a9d4295e9d8f3a9aee49d70c0691da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:20:42 - 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2011年經濟部水利署於屏東縣高速箱重新修築完成長2560公尺 高10公尺 地下還有20公尺的基樁超級的提防 當時一公尺造價差不多36萬元"},{"start":407.785,"end":426.198,"text":"可以抵擋200年的黃紅頻率那此次花蓮光復鄉這個淹水收災慘重媒體報導光復鄉未來新設的超級堤防預計在後年年底建構5公里長50米寬超級的堤防那我請問包括經濟部還有賴市長等等"},{"start":432.583,"end":450.892,"text":"在特別預算水利設施編列99億其中超級提防的預算有多少平均一公尺造價多少是否也能夠像屏東高速那種超級提防抵擋200年的黃紅計畫頻率馬太安溪的滾滾那些泥流"},{"start":451.812,"end":473.514,"text":"有沒有什麼看法非常感謝委員的指導朗隆溪的舊樓提房就是剛剛你描述的我有參與過那這一次水利署現在正在這個設計之中針對於高規格提房的工作因為每一條的河川的核心不一樣所以這個絕對會去確保安全明年汛期前就會再做第二個層的一個加強房"},{"start":473.834,"end":489.723,"text":"我希望人命關天啦最重要就是我們要預防啊這個如何防止下滯的大水所以說各部會一定啊這個一定要好好的去推動把這些問題解決啦以上好謝謝委員知道好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1c04cff3e1b8f83c50799e8a58cec5c3ef2a9d4295e9d8f3a3dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:37:27 - 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114年"},{"start":115.215,"end":143.589,"text":"經濟部水利署都分別編列預算在今年九月通過預算的徵收而水利署也同時在這個預算的徵收的過程去做基本設計我們會同步來並行這個工作四澳分紅的工程水利署除了透過這一項措施之外對於發包策略的部分也會加強還敢辦那除此之外市區裡面那個賴市長你是一個很有能力而且你從水利署長出身嘛所以我覺得你的講法我可以接受那你請回座我繼續請教處長"},{"start":147.727,"end":156.957,"text":"上一次那個台南那一個颱風是不是有特別條例是那個多少錢600600通過了嗎通過600億那邊然後這一次這個270加30有可能300億對這樣就900了900那900這是特別條例嗎"},{"start":167.853,"end":186.163,"text":"那特別要條例的這些預算雖然不受預算法限制但是有沒有受舉債總額的限制有沒有受這個一年不能夠超過你的預算規模15%的舉債上限這個限制都沒有期間有受流量限制啦"},{"start":186.403,"end":209.483,"text":"那這個上個禮拜本院又在藍白多數的表決之下印給你通過這個新的他們這個新的這個才化法的這個修正又要規定你計劃型補助跟這個跟那個跟一般性補助都不可以比以前少所以卓院長有講說這樣又要增加2600多億"},{"start":211.598,"end":214.98,"text":"2646億2646億那在之前因為上一個版本他已經從你這邊財化法已經拿走4000多億4165億那這樣就兩個加起來是多少5455億總共是多少"},{"start":227.5,"end":232.185,"text":"總共增加4165億這個部分一般性補助和計劃性補助要維持5455億這個部分我們必須要增加2646億這個部分我們是沒有辦法負擔"},{"start":250.944,"end":262.94,"text":"這樣子加起來有沒有超過那個預算法規定不可以超過你的那個預算的15%的上限超過一千多億那另一個法律叫你要違法那這樣要怎麼處理啊"},{"start":266.104,"end":281.841,"text":"但是有一個方法你可以作帳啊你就虛胖啊你就把你的總預算灌水啊把那個舉借幾千億全部都加進來那這樣灌水虛胖之後後面債務給後面的人背啊你這樣就不會違反預算法舉債失誤發上線這種事情我們不能做"},{"start":284.778,"end":310.971,"text":"有啊 很多地方政府都在做這樣的事情啊不然左也違法 右也違法 那你要怎麼辦是 所以這個部分我們必須要整個要循救濟的程序來救濟啦怎麼樣救濟的程序是 這個部分我們大概應該是第一個是要視線嘛 複製啦複製我們也會複製複製不會過啦複製只要我們多麻煩的多表決一次而已哪一次複製複製的時候連討論都不跟你討論欸"},{"start":313.302,"end":319.255,"text":"是 那我們也會要求四限啦四限到法官會議現在被停擺了 四什麼限"},{"start":322.429,"end":351.079,"text":"所以你要有做一個心理準備今年的總預算不會省啊就算延到1月31號也不會省啊我們還是希望委員能夠支持啊因為預算裡面我當然支持啊問題是我是少數我在立法院我是少數黨啊我是跟你講說你要心理準備根本就不會省啊省了也沒用 省了也違法嘛你們也沒有辦法執行嘛是不是這樣心理要準備好是OK好 謝謝"},{"start":352.81,"end":353.091,"text":"好 謝謝奧比努委員"}]}},{"id":"165553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1e32ae7ae01dd80e756e0913f8e9ddf6ff2a9d4295e9d8f3a11b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:18:25 - 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林委員早本席認為現在國氣國運這個議題經濟部跟中油目前的進度本席表達不滿沒有國氣國運就沒有能源國安台灣天然氣供應鏈的戰略缺口今天來就叫我們經濟部下面 他不能動主席 這個不能動給我 好 我們下去"},{"start":44.81,"end":69.343,"text":"沒有國際國運就沒有人員國安今天不談商業投資而是談國家安全台灣的天然氣預計在5年後2030年人員轉型配比高達50%一旦任何一座的接收站延誤任何一條運輸線的中斷我國的電力民生乃至國防將在一天之內就陷入風險目前行政院跟經濟部口中推動已久的國際國運沒有人"},{"start":71.164,"end":100.924,"text":"沒有船你訓練了546位的船員真正登船實習的不到30人留任的也只有18人更關鍵的是台灣仍然沒有任何一艘國籍LNG運輸船其實我直接講重點就是中油你根本還沒有開出FOB的訂單當然就不可能有業者或者是國家或者是我們的這個陽明海運去投入"},{"start":101.344,"end":121.198,"text":"我們國籍船的LNG的運輸船好那在福建靠城均南海緊張局勢升溫的當下沒有國籍船沒有船員沒有長約也意味著我國人員安全每天都暴露了這個多暴露了一天請部長你具體說明這三件事情第一個國氣國運的落實時程"},{"start":123.519,"end":151.061,"text":"第二个第一艘国际LNG船的建造进度第三交通部与中油是否已研议将LNG运输纳入国安航运的体系请回答基本上经济部的态度是支持委员的提案那上礼拜我们国营市市长也找了这个交通部有做一些讨论详细状况我是不是请市长跟委员做一个说明"},{"start":152.741,"end":177.788,"text":"这是陈鹏委员一直在关切这个事情上个礼拜我有请交通部来讨论一下那现在目前大概交通部有一个之前就是有定一个方案出来那这方案目前来看要建造LNG国籍的LNG大概现在船公司因为没有这个订单也没有太大的意愿所以刚开始规划的时候如果中油将来有了FOB的这个订单以后会规划先用全一轮来大概"},{"start":179.688,"end":205.456,"text":"大概五到十年的时间然后在这段期间如果订单多了那才会有去推动国际LNG的建造那你对船员呢船员就是因为现在看起来我们只有就是中游自己可以去比较能够掌控的大概就是有四艘的那是本来就有的对对对那我们会那个上个礼拜也跟交通部在讲说我们会在协调中游看是不是能够把实习的名额好加大"},{"start":205.876,"end":233.723,"text":"因為現在大概航港局的地方已經有將近540幾位的船員已經是受過訓的但是沒有實習的機會有啊 留任者才18個 登實習的不到30個可是因為我們現在自己能夠大概只有好 那鐘友請你回答你的這個第一艘國際LNG船的建造進度其實關係到你的FOB的第一張長約在哪裡目前我們新購的合約都會跟供應商提出我們要買FOB的要求"},{"start":234.574,"end":236.963,"text":"當然會不會達成FOB雙方的合約協議的話這需要雙方來去做協商"},{"start":242.645,"end":271.53,"text":"所以還是沒有進度目前沒有所以這個第一艘國際船就是遙遙無期部長您聽到了所以現在這個地緣政治的這麼樣的一個緊張情況之下而且之前也發生了其實就是因為這個台海緊張的關係我自己的LNG船我們訂的這個LNG船是根本它就不進來那這個國防部也預警我們現在其實國防的人員儲量其實"},{"start":272.19,"end":290.318,"text":"是應該到14天然後呢現在我們的天然氣也只能11天那你以經濟部的立場你也表達你會提升到14天我不曉得這樣的一個訊息你在一個國籍船沒有成行好那怎麼會配合你的政府有11天呢常常的這個台海這個"},{"start":291.539,"end":317.975,"text":"中國在那邊的軍艦在那邊繞來繞去你的人員的鍛煉的可能性是相當相當高的而且你的天然氣的佔比是50%還會再增加因為已經不用核能了你的這個再生能源的配比也不到20%所以火力發電更是不可能完全就靠天然氣百分百的進口所以我都不曉得你有沒有這種國安思維好再進來"},{"start":319.156,"end":344.787,"text":"好從三階的營運到七階的中樞國安工程是不容切割的那當然近期三階二期的工程你們的報告也很清楚了那當然確實你們也說明沒有這個暴增百億但也證實了工程預算高達253億元這也確實是重大的國安工程所以本席也呼應你們的主張但是我也希望這樣的爭議不應該由媒體來審判"},{"start":347.108,"end":376.071,"text":"那中油跟相關單位趕快的協同調查做到勿妄勿重那人員工程關係到國家安全連結是基礎不容模糊而在四階動工延後北部進氣受限的情況之下七階的重要性就已非地區的議題而是全國戰略的核心所以七階如果若能如期如此的完工每小時可供給1600噸等於全台穩定電力的最後防線"},{"start":377.112,"end":391.171,"text":"這七街就是在高雄啦所以我很在意這樣的一個進度它不是它是一個護國產業它是雖然第二座的接氣站是在高雄永安之外就是在大林埔這邊那這個"},{"start":393.053,"end":413.315,"text":"中油這邊我也很肯定董事長這邊你也很重視那也確實有相關的建制起身我希望是真的是如期如止他穩定的是全台的電力的最後防線所以也希望經濟部我能夠將希望你們將期間納入人員國安建設我提出來的叫做"},{"start":413.735,"end":435.987,"text":"人員國安建設專案每一項進度每一次檢測都應該以國安的規格來這個來看待那另外呢這個冷能到再利用從除氣到除冷的國家戰略冷能是液化電燃氣接收過程中產生的副產品弱子輸氣不回收等於把人員直接排進的大"},{"start":436.447,"end":459.663,"text":"在國際上日本的大阪東京橫濱等都已經講LNG冷能應用於食品加工冷電物流跟材料循環產業高雄七街就具備這樣的相同條件所以本席建議在七街周邊要規劃冷能產業帶結合南新與紅毛港腹地建構冷能物流"},{"start":460.384,"end":469.779,"text":"新材料循環經濟與海洋教育展示園區部長這邊的新材料循環園區講了很久了其實他就是"},{"start":471.7,"end":496.161,"text":"連紙上作業都沒有就是一個概念而已所以這邊我提點您您接任部長之後我也希望您能夠投入在七街周邊的規劃的人能產業帶那結合南興這個腹地不管南興一起雖然填海遭陸完成現在是荒蕪在那邊的雖然說不是你的議題也不是是港務公司的也是說市政府那也是"},{"start":496.721,"end":515.694,"text":"好但是呢這個在產業面當中我覺得您就要有既然冷鏈冷能產業帶這個東西是經濟部在產業當中應該去處理的所以在這個相關的腹地上我也希望你能夠做一些跟產業面的結合那但這不是光光建設而是冷能的負產轉化為產業韌帶是從儲計到儲能的國家戰略"},{"start":522.392,"end":550.108,"text":"升級好那下一頁不要切割問題要縫合戰略經濟部跟中友不要把國氣國運接收站的建設忍忍回收廉政調查分成各自的專案請經濟部經濟安全的思維將目前分散的專案整合為國家安全行動方案這是本席所提出來的經濟安全跟國家安全的行動方案"},{"start":550.808,"end":572.17,"text":"那美國的川普跟日本高市早苗都已經在現在就在落實他的經濟安全經濟安全的概念不管美國他在講到他的人員他一定講到他的供應穩定日本他在危機管理他也在講到什麼危機管理投資"},{"start":573.638,"end":589.906,"text":"所以這個經濟安全是要有國家安全的思維天然氣的接收不只是關心民生更是國家安全的課題所以我也希望部長今天面對國際情勢的緊張大家區域經濟當中大家的緊張性所以你的經濟當中的經濟韌性一個經濟安全的這樣的一個"},{"start":598.049,"end":617.435,"text":"國家安全的課題希望你在各個產業當中真的知道導入這會是新的一個思維要去注意的在地緣政治高壓下每一天的延遲都是人員安全多暴露了一天請行政院跟經濟部能夠將這些議題統合成國家人員安全行動方案"},{"start":618.395,"end":641.615,"text":"國家人員安全行動方案這三個整合在一塊第一個以國安架構推動國際國運與國籍船的計畫第二個以產業政策延伸人人利用與港灣再生第三以廉政機制確保三階四階七階的預算透明人員的安全不是開會的目的而是國家要命的問題"},{"start":643.156,"end":666.929,"text":"部長您針對國家人員安全行動方案本席把它整合為這三個議題您的看法如何謝委員我覺得是非常好的建議我們也會往這個方向來進行人員安全本來就是國家安全的最重要一環謝委員的提醒就是說現在接觸站我們已經把它列為國家關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":668.553,"end":684.953,"text":"那但是這個天然氣的運輸如果更強化它的韌性的話那我們盡量來處理FOB的問題那有關於冷能本來就是它是一個循環在利用重要的資源那我們會善加利用那廉政的機制是一定會做的以上"},{"start":685.373,"end":700.875,"text":"那部長您這邊的財市那這個中油這邊你就要加把勁你的FOB的如果第一的訂單沒有出來就不可能有國籍船那當然就是沒有國籍船你的國籍的船員更是本席更加期待的國籍的船長"},{"start":702.778,"end":721.673,"text":"這個船長的自己國際的船長才會配合我們的人員政策啊好那最後以戰略的決心補上台灣人員的缺口人員國安不是工程也不是商業行為他是一條從海上延伸到產業的生命線只要台灣少一天的國際船少一套人人系統"},{"start":722.333,"end":732.285,"text":"找一份廉政信任我們的人員安全就多一分風險所以在這邊我呼籲行政院也感謝經濟部部長您現在至少從你這邊已經這個重視到這個在國內當中的所謂的經濟安全"},{"start":738.792,"end":763.205,"text":"這件事情在今天的質詢當中你確認了這樣的思維也就是說你在各產業推動的當中你的經濟韌性 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謝謝主席 有請法務部部長 調查局局長以及金管會 今天是銀行局局長來嗎來 有請局長請幾位機關的長官來到請盤 謝謝"},{"start":23.806,"end":44.358,"text":"好 三位好 時間的關係不宜問候太子集團這一個跨國詐欺己前的集團的案子啊 切漏了以後我想台灣社會非常的震驚也讓全體的國人開始問一件事我們的政府講打詐國家隊講得很大聲實際上"},{"start":47.48,"end":64.706,"text":"實際上對在我國境內所從事的這麼大規模集團的詐欺也好幫忙洗錢也好卻是渾然不覺等到10月8號美國聯邦檢察官對陳志等人提起公訴了以後"},{"start":66.487,"end":77.298,"text":"14號美國的財政部宣布制裁那個時候變成公開的資訊引發台灣社會軒然我們的北檢才在15號匆匆的分案當然這個消息出來了以後"},{"start":81.906,"end":100.833,"text":"台灣的人民非常的震驚 舉國花瀾同時也對我們的打炸國家隊到底在幹嘛大家是充滿了非常多的困惑不過也沒有關係 當政府出事的時候我們的綠媒很快就幫忙大內宣了"},{"start":101.753,"end":116.763,"text":"大內宣是什麼本報掌握我國調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪也持續跟美國進行情報交換我每一個字都是源於媒體上面所說的"},{"start":117.623,"end":130.118,"text":"來先請教一下調查局局長他說調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪所謂很早就掌握是什麼時候掌握本案大概在108年銀行有陸續申報108年就掌握了"},{"start":132.561,"end":161.101,"text":"不是委員聽我說他108年銀行有陸續申報一些可疑的交易那我們就從108年開始我們也陸續有經過銀行的申報以後我們有延編了一些金融的請知分送給這個相關的執法機關以及我們的國際的指揮相關的執法機關是誰包含調查局包含那個調查局不就是你們自己你們自己分送給自己喔對那個洗錢防治署它是一個金融情報中心它不是一個辦案單位是是"},{"start":162.217,"end":181.858,"text":"所以就分給你們自己調查局嗎也有警政署的部分也有警政署嗎然後也有國際友方的部分然後呢對 所以就是透過這樣子的一個金融情質逐步的建構我們才發現說這個集團在我們國內你們什麼時候發現的這個可能要在110年以後110年發現的110年以後 是"},{"start":185.083,"end":201.662,"text":"那最後為什麼是美國聯邦的檢察官破案因為本案其實如果委員有注意媒體本案其實是一個很大型的跨國詐騙的犯罪其實他的總部是在柬埔寨並不是在我們台灣我們台灣的部分是他以前藏匿資產的一個點請你聽我講話好嗎"},{"start":205.606,"end":223.181,"text":"我不是請你上來演講的請你針對問題回答就好了你等一下就會知道我為什麼會問時間問得這麼具體啊剛剛你說110年你們就開始發現有問題剛剛我問題的重點我沒有期待你們去破獲總部在柬埔寨的炸雞集團"},{"start":225.049,"end":242.019,"text":"我關心的是什麼在台灣的犯罪行為調查局掌握了情資也分給情資給各個執法機關開始進行調查接下來到底做了什麼事為什麼我會這麼關心那個不是只有事後大內宣的問題"},{"start":243.22,"end":268.826,"text":"是在中間的這個過程當中大家關心的是我們所謂的執法機關到底做了什麼事台灣人民看到的是什麼台灣人民看到的是原來要等到美國的聯邦檢察官起訴了以後我們才匆匆的分案才開始去做強制處分這個時序我沒有捏造"},{"start":270.327,"end":292.741,"text":"所以大家會關心嘛關心如果調查局早就掌握的話從110年就掌握啦我們110年持續的掌握然後掌握了以後有分送情資而且在我們的調查局大家共同的努力之下幫助美國聯邦的檢察官破獲這個大型的跨國炸雞洗錢集團"},{"start":295.953,"end":322.758,"text":"針對在台灣境內的犯罪唯獨針對在台灣境內的犯罪等到人家動作了以後我們才後知後覺為什麼問這個問題2019年4月詐騙集團密集的購置豪宅掩飾不法資金2019年7月太子集團在台灣的負責人張剛耀高調的受訪這個全部都是客觀的資訊"},{"start":325.236,"end":352.728,"text":"到2021年的時候檢警偵辦境外賭博網站的案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人就是張剛耀就是張剛耀這是2021年不起訴處分確定現在我有一點看不懂如果你們在2020年陸陸續續就掌握了這些情資怎麼這個張剛耀當初這個境外賭博網站的案件會不起訴"},{"start":355.764,"end":383.951,"text":"這個大牛啊 科技有限公司就是 來來來張剛耀在台灣你們報告上面設立了這九家公司最下面一個就是大牛科技啊那在你們調查局早就掌握到了情資甚至分送情資的情況下結果張剛耀我們的檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件結果他會不起訴處分確定"},{"start":386.428,"end":414.796,"text":"那不僅僅是賭博網站的問題還有背後洗錢網絡的問題所以我現在覺得很狐疑啊你們早就掌握到了情資那這個案子是怎麼辦的誰要回答是你不知道還是發生了什麼事還是檢察官辦案不力還是你們有把情資給地檢署 地檢署沒有掌握"},{"start":416.17,"end":430.941,"text":"包委員 這個部分其實是這個太子集團它裡面內訌的問題不是啊 內訌是下一個案子他們裡面的人自己出來告這個張綱耀對不起喔 分兩個部分太子集團內訌是下一個案子"},{"start":431.915,"end":454.19,"text":"這是前面的案子你剛講的所謂內訌是下一個案子告侵佔的問題從台灣這邊匯走了9億的資金這是第二個案子我還沒有問到第二個案子請你看清楚這是第一個案子第一個案子是大牛科技有限公司為什麼我會點大牛科技有限公司"},{"start":455.111,"end":476.61,"text":"就是你們這是點名的這九家公司其中一個大牛科技有限公司負責人這九家公司負責人全部都是張剛耀我為什麼說我問你時間點是有具體的原因的你們說你們早就掌握了早就掌握了也分送了情資啊那我現在看不懂啊看不懂"},{"start":478.309,"end":500.959,"text":"這個已經是境外賭博網站的案件境外賭博網站的案件在我們打詐的偵查上面通常會跟洗錢掛在一起處理嗎這個案子是發生什麼事你們真的早就掌握了嗎真的早就掌握了那是這個檢察官在辦這個案子的時候太廢嗎怎麼會這樣呢"},{"start":507.366,"end":533.464,"text":"這個案子不是我們調查局受理的所以跟你們沒有關係 來 那個警政署署長不是啊 因為現在事情鬧得很大了嘛然後檢察官也收網了嘛 到處去搜索嘛扣押 該申請羈押的人也申請羈押了那我們現在回溯來看嘛到底發生了什麼事 因為台灣社會很關心啊"},{"start":534.625,"end":556.204,"text":"我們投入了這麼多資源 成立打炸國家隊相關媒體的內宣也從來沒少過出了這麼大的事情以後 調查局對社會說沒有 我們不是不知不覺我們早就發現了 還提供情資因為我們提供了情資 導致可以破獲這麼大的集團"},{"start":557.574,"end":578.075,"text":"我越看越不懂啊那如果是這個樣子的話先不要講我們提供的情資對美國的破案幫助有多大有幫助就好善盡國際社會打擊犯罪一份子的責任但怎麼對我們自己境內的事情麻木不仁不知不覺警政署後來有去了解嗎"},{"start":579.653,"end":603.508,"text":"那個包委員那對於剛剛所講這個調查局就是說有提供我們這邊大概在110年有5件的這個金流的這個狀況那我們也有去做分析啦那去做分析就是說不好意思喔 署長剛剛你可能在下面有恍神我的問題你沒聽清楚請你看螢幕這個案子"},{"start":605.339,"end":627.94,"text":"2021年檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人張剛耀不起訴確定剛調查局說這個案子不是他們辦的如果不是調查員辦的 鐵定就是警察辦的總不可能檢察官自己下去辦吧那跟委員報告 因為這個案辦了這個結果也是有做起訴"},{"start":629.48,"end":651.923,"text":"對啊但是張剛耀沒有起訴啊你們下面的工程師都起訴上面的負責人把他放掉這就是我看不懂的啊這可能是證據上的連結的問題證據上連結的問題那現在就來啦如果調查局早就發現了相關的情資也分送了結果在我們境內"},{"start":653.157,"end":668.114,"text":"在我們境內早就破獲了太子集團下面境外賭博網站的案件了但是國人看到的是什麼國人看到的是這個集團重要的成員張剛耀不起訴處分確定剛剛電話局局長說"},{"start":672.523,"end":693.585,"text":"後來是黑撕黑 搬錢搬了9億 鬧內訌跑掉了他怎麼在台灣這樣洗錢洗9億啊這是我們後續要去追金管會的問題但我現在的問題是完全看不懂 完全看不懂這是在我們境內的案子 調查局也說早就掌握了"},{"start":694.462,"end":721.854,"text":"然後也開始進行調查了開始進行情搜了結果搞了半天我們2021年有沒有辦過太子集團的案子有辦過啊怎麼會沒辦過張靚耀的案子就辦過啦但大家看到辦的結果是什麼工程師起訴負責人沒事那負責人沒事以後才發生剛剛局長我說講的第二個案子嘛黑是黑嘛"},{"start":722.984,"end":737.937,"text":"黑吃黑了以後搬了9億走現在被通緝當中2021年的案子到底發生了什麼事情我本來以為這個案子現在鬧得這麼大現在鬧得這麼大我們相關的執法部門會回溯去看在這幾年的期間當中我們到底做了什麼事案件辦的結果是什麼"},{"start":751.195,"end":760.061,"text":"但是從今天各位在詢答上面的表現上來看顯然是沒有做到這件事時間的關係最後來請教金管會調查局一直說有相關的洗錢通報媒體下標是洗錢通報52次然後銀行局說你們會約詢相關銀行檢視是否善盡反洗錢的責任現在結果是什麼"},{"start":781.155,"end":795.966,"text":"我們有做初步的金融檢查這10家金融機構他們在洗錢通報的過程裡面大概都有依照我們相關的規定進行相關的通報所以通報完了以後還是沒有辦法達到防治的效果嗎"},{"start":797.668,"end":823.724,"text":"從銀行局的觀點來看是發生什麼事情在我們洗錢房市的分工上面金融機構一定要去做有效的這個疑似可疑交易這個我了解那現在我的問題是說我們做疑似洗錢通報的目的是要防止洗錢嘛在前端的時候先管制嘛那我現在的疑問是洗錢的通報高達52次剛剛按照局長所講的銀行該做的都有做嘛"},{"start":824.944,"end":849.042,"text":"銀行該做的都有做嘛在洗錢房子上面銀行該做的都有做那顯然這個洗錢房子的通報根本沒有辦法達到前端的效果沒有辦法達到前不管是預防還是偵測的效果局長你覺得我說的有錯嗎因為我覺得很困惑啦因為洗錢房子的通報利益良善"},{"start":850.697,"end":873.392,"text":"但是在第一端的時候常常造成一般的公民很大的困擾一般的公民做一些事情那大家也知道搞得這麼麻煩是為了要落實洗錢防治大家也盡量配合但我現在的問題來了整個社會其實付出蠻高的代價跟成本在幫忙做這件事"},{"start":876.345,"end":889.015,"text":"那在太子集團的這個案子裡面有洗錢房子的通報 通報52次銀行端也善盡了責任那但最後看起來是沒有什麼成效銀行局對這件事情有什麼想法"},{"start":890.006,"end":913.938,"text":"因為我們畢竟是整個洗房機制的一環那在金融機構的部分他有散盡他洗房衣物的通報那當然如果說相關的有一些那個情資的分享當然金融機構在做相關金流的這個阻擋也會更有效率所以像這一次我們有接到檢方的一個通報我們馬上就把相關的賬戶給凍結起來好最後一個問題喔不好意思最後一個問題來有請刑事廳廳長"},{"start":920.269,"end":941.181,"text":"這個案子我們的法務部部長雖然通常說那個行政部門對個案不介入不干涉不評論這個是禮拜一法務部的書面報告寫的對個案不介入不干涉不評論但是太子集團的案子太大了我們的行政院卓榮泰院長都評論了"},{"start":942.509,"end":966.379,"text":"雖然是個案他也是評論 因為有委員問他說參效女助理15萬交保卓榮泰怒批法院輕放 重錯打詐士氣這個是卓榮泰講的卓榮泰是選擇性的在個案裡面會發表他的評論他怒批法院輕放 司法院有沒有什麼話要說"},{"start":969.248,"end":995.47,"text":"呃 這是個案喔 那對於法院的核心裁定 我們原則上我們予以尊重平常尤其是你完全搞不清楚狀況遇到左翁他也不敢講喔不是 這個部分喔15萬交保是誰交保的上次在上個禮拜我們副秘書長在答詢的時候就已經說出來了這個郵存預的部分是由檢方在訓控交保的跟法院有關係"},{"start":997.216,"end":1005.981,"text":"還在那邊核心的裁定你不評論法院有做裁定嗎裁定在哪裡裁定在哪裡"},{"start":1009.507,"end":1018.534,"text":"然後左榮泰怒批法院輕放撞臭打詐士氣我現在沒有問你啊你急著趕快出來幫左榮泰洗地喔我有請你上來回答嗎我有請你上來回答嗎我現在是請司法院表達他的意見我有請法務部部長回答嗎"},{"start":1040.35,"end":1047.475,"text":"所以嘛卓榮泰怒批就不對嘛不管是法院15案還是檢察官15案這是個案欸行政院院長怎麼可以怒批"},{"start":1067.574,"end":1091.891,"text":"重挫 打詐士氣還是法務部的立場要看誰怒批如果是院長怒批 院長好棒棒超級有魄力啊 超級有魄力啊院長代表我們的行政團隊代表行政團隊表達政府的立場啊但是如果是別人怒批 這是個案我們不評論"},{"start":1093.137,"end":1119.334,"text":"不介入 不干涉尊重法院的裁定尊重檢察官的裁定雙標至極啊雙標至極啊沒有雙標啦這個本來就是依照回到事務的本質再處理嘛是嘛 沒有錯啊你要趕快跟院長報告啊報告院長這要按照事務的本質來處理我們要尊重法院的裁定要尊重檢察官的裁定請院長息怒"},{"start":1120.592,"end":1128.421,"text":"不要隨便怒批重犯那個檢察官已經按照那個依照那個法院的一個裁定我們做一個事實的一個主張嘛"},{"start":1129.69,"end":1139.018,"text":"不好意思喔 我現在在講的是你應該跟卓榮泰講的啊然後結果你是想到不知道要講什麼隨便上來講兩句話來舔嗎所以我說卓榮泰不能夠怒批法院重放我說卓榮泰罵錯人了 這樣也有錯卓榮泰真的罵錯人啊"},{"start":1156.158,"end":1176.631,"text":"他罵法院幹嘛法院從來沒做裁定啊卓榮泰罵完了以後台北地院司法院還發新聞稿耶寫得很客氣啦但是翻成白話文我跟大家翻譯一下報告院長你罵錯人啦法官從來沒有做裁定好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1053e336d71f6bc0d0799e8a58cec5c3e9ed37f72173c5d090ecafa458f489ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:12:48 - 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察覺危機的發生 進而能夠預防性的保護到自己這個也會做到那另外在這個法務部或者司法院的部分呢我們也去強化這個橫向之間 這個核定保護令的時候如何讓這個在地的警察機關能夠快速的得到這個訊息"},{"start":214.401,"end":243.349,"text":"對 因為在地的第一線的警務同仁其實是會第一線直接保護我們的被害人好 沒有錯確實這些配套做完之後可能都還是會有相關案件不斷產生這本來就是社會的樣態跟常態剛剛黃國昌委員有一個線性圖說通報案件逐年增加可是當我們辦公室去研究這個通報案件逐年增加其實有一件事情是因為衛福部在這幾年做了一個很重要的事情就是我們有社區防暴宣講時"},{"start":244.409,"end":266.19,"text":"所以以前可能很多被害人不知道原来这叫做家暴原来我可以通报原来国家可以保护我所以在社区防暴师的智力推动之下有越来越多的人意识到一我可以通报求救原来国家可以保护我二原来这不是只有我自己的事情三原来我被家暴了"},{"start":266.73,"end":291.937,"text":"所以我看到我們的通報數據逐年增加我認為這個是要以正視聽的並不是說各式各樣的樣態它的增加就必然是那個社會案件的變多所以如果我們仔細再去分析相關上升的數字我們辦公室的分析是根據你們當時在7月的時候保護司司長告訴我們說根據這個通報我們會做分級跟分流"},{"start":292.657,"end":318.146,"text":"透過台灣親密關係暴力危險評估表去做分流分出風險高低所以裡面大概會有將近10%是所謂高風險而這些高風險的家庭或者是相關被害人我們會立刻進場做積極的協助這是要勞煩現場的社工再來中低風險大概就是90%那現在衛福部跟相關單位有跟37個民間團體在做協力合作對嗎"},{"start":319.386,"end":343.5,"text":"也就是說我們看到這麼多13萬件就是到了20104年2015年是13萬件到了113年2024到了22萬件看起來好像將近增加了一倍可是我們其實做了風險分流的控管然後我們把適當的人力放到適當的案件上去應該是有實質的進展因為我們也認識非常多社區防暴師他們告訴我們說"},{"start":344.981,"end":371.34,"text":"在這個防暴宣講的過程當中除了他們自己的增能他們也發現更多社區裡面的家庭意識到這件事情原來是國家可以協助我的所以我認為我們在跟國人傳達這個通報數量上升的同時其實要把相關風險分級講清楚那也就是這樣所以回過頭來我還是要拜託衛福部這邊我們如何協助這些社區防暴師的做宣講可以更到位到更多的社區去"},{"start":371.98,"end":390.765,"text":"那之前呂健德次長也有答應我們說在社安網2.0的部分我們要積極在這部分補足社工那如何協助社工我想後續我們一起努力因為時間有限我不要占用太多時間好那接下來看其實從衛福部這邊到司法院我們也看見工作的困境我覺得這也要讓國人知道"},{"start":391.806,"end":411.128,"text":"司法院目前能够审审的法官大概有多少人每一位法官要扛多少件保护令申请案我们在7月质询的时候有一个家事法官郭耀明回复我们说一个法官一年要收200件通常保护令但那个法官身上同时还会有其他案件对不对所以对法官的负担很大"},{"start":411.849,"end":433.111,"text":"看到我投影片左手邊有一個通常保護令呢核發天數大概是52天然後暫時保護令是21天當時很多人就問啊為什麼要這麼久那當時你們告訴我們說一個有原額的問題還有就相關資料申請的問題喔那這中間的空窗怎麼處理我可不可以請司法院再說一下讓國人更清楚知道你們相關工作流程"},{"start":434.741,"end":449.242,"text":"是謝謝委員關於如何促進縮短這個核化保護令的這個時間點我們做了好幾種的方案來進行那第一個方案就是關於這個"},{"start":451.525,"end":473.842,"text":"保護令的一個市民證據的部分我們跟網絡連結起來那麼發了一些 譬如說我們給診政署 衛福部保護師發文然後讓他落實到第一線在協助申請保護令的時候依交報法第八條協助競訴在第一次或不證實由我們公家機構來協助這樣就不會讓這個"},{"start":477.425,"end":503.163,"text":"市民證據太晚以至於在核發有比較晚這是第一個第二個是我們內部的管考內部的管考在暫時保護令我們現在每一個月就快滿一個月就發這個催告這個以及檢查單由最後院長要核定第三個是我們持續一直開下個月要由我本人跟刑事廳長下個月12月嗎"},{"start":504.223,"end":525.892,"text":"對 12月繼續開再用這個線上跟所有的庭長法官等等來處理這個保護令速度的一個問題因為我們在審理的一個注意事項裡面有法官得依之前調取不是說一定要等當事人補正那這個法官依之前調取的速度就會更快"},{"start":526.772,"end":553.128,"text":"那最後一個就是高風險高風險的部分我們就可以先不經開庭儘速在基本的市民夠了我們就儘速發這個暫時保護令因為通保令的時候可以依之前發暫時保護令先去保護人命那其中保護令的第二款禁燒令裡面就有一些相關細節可以保護那當然目前的保護只有禁止騷擾跟蹤跟接觸"},{"start":556.11,"end":577.211,"text":"但如果將來有科技監控那可能要思考科技監控就是今天主席所在意的事情那我可不可以拜託主席因為相關科技監控的困境是這樣被害人他要不要同意這件事情或者是剛黃委員剛說的法國那個系統現在這個系統在台灣一 這個系統在台灣是沒有的我們現在的系統只有刑事監控的系統還有確保他如果"},{"start":577.891,"end":593.91,"text":"到了港邊到了岸邊他可能有逃離出境的問題所以這個系統就會Alert發出警告系統但是如果在相關保護令如果一被害人要不要同意這是第一個樣態第二個如果被害人不同意如何透過好的APP系統去保護他這也是另外一個問題"},{"start":595.111,"end":615.984,"text":"到底國外用的案例跟系統跟台灣現行的系統我認為落差很大如果我們貿然讓法條通過我認為相關的配套其實只會壓垮第一線的同仁而不見得可以真的保護到所有的被害者如果在國外它是雙軌系統刑事歸民刑事保護令歸保護令我認為現在這個在台灣是沒有的我可不可以拜託我們有機會再開一個公聽會"},{"start":616.544,"end":617.345,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員發言接下來請劉建國"}]}},{"id":"165581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d13c0073b3cf818d977119a7747a4c5c6c9ed37f72173c5d0910110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:28:21 - 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對不對那到底可不可以公佈"},{"start":218.335,"end":243.167,"text":"欸 整個報告是不能公布嘛報告不能公布 好所以現在又有新市政剛剛你們也特別說了新市政你們要重啟政風的調查 是不是對 對是不是 所以我們再往前推你在整個巡駕跟訪駕中油公司到底做了哪些角色啊"},{"start":245.763,"end":262.457,"text":"這個重點是如此啊在你整個案子你必須在未開票以前你要尋家跟訪家那綜合公司你們怎麼樣委託委託之後的結果怎麼樣去做你的流程怎麼樣去拍板定案變成253億這才是重點啊部長這才是人民希望聽到的對這個也會在調查的過程當中在什麼時候調查"},{"start":271.08,"end":292.374,"text":"這個是中國公司說這個 振豐啦 他們振豐會調查大概12月中之前會報告會提給我們12月中之前大概一個月他的報告會給經濟部所以再請教你們現在所謂的有心事政有心事政那你們要查什麼"},{"start":293.214,"end":320.15,"text":"你要查什麼人 你要查什麼公司你要查什麼流程你的訪價 你的這個這個巡駕到底你們會不會朝這樣的方向去查不要再打假球人民不希望如此 希望給說明清楚你會朝本席剛才所說的這個方向嗎所謂這是新市政就是這個錄音檔嘛是新的市政那請問到底有沒有這個錄音檔我沒有聽過"},{"start":323.24,"end":326.924,"text":"你沒有聽過但是到底有沒有你一定要重啟針鋒重啟調查部長"},{"start":330.407,"end":359.739,"text":"有沒有這個錄音檔這個也是調查的一環我們當然會調查的一環換句話說有這個錄音檔還不知道這要調查以後才知道有沒有這個錄音檔在國會我們經濟委員會我們希望讓社會不要有質疑所以特別邀請你們來說明董事長告訴我我沒有聽過然後你們說要重啟調查然後我再問你工部長到底有沒有這個錄音檔要調查以後才知道"},{"start":361.178,"end":386.974,"text":"現在沒有調查你不是已經告訴我們要在12月中你不是已經啟動了嗎你到底啟動了沒有啟動了什麼時候啟動中油公司在13號的那個委員會國民黨的記者會裡面就提出這樣一個事情從那天開始我們就開始啟動13號開始啟動嘛是不是對開始啟動那到底有沒有這個錄音檔"},{"start":389.66,"end":406.873,"text":"那當時在媒體上面所報的那個總經理是誰因為你已經有方向啊你可以問啊為什麼不趕快去把這個質疑去清楚報導中所講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理"},{"start":407.911,"end":434.497,"text":"這個就是你們要查這個就是你們要查對不對這個也是我們中油公司必須要去了解清楚主旗幟仔是你們啊那到底那個總經理是誰啊這個就是要查但是說老實話中油公司他本身也沒有調查權我們盡量會請相關的市政的相關人員來協助我們"},{"start":436.687,"end":458.714,"text":"那當然檢調是已經在調查了 那我們當然所有的資料都會如果檢調有需要的話 我們都會給檢調你是經濟部長 中油是我們國家非常重要的事業單位出現了這麼樣的一個 這麼大的一個衝擊 而且連續這三年不斷被質疑"},{"start":459.83,"end":476.622,"text":"我們中油公司自己內部不需要去調查清楚嗎光光已經指明有沒有錄音檔總經理是誰這些都是最容易讓你可以去清清楚楚明明白白了解到底內容是什麼"},{"start":479.349,"end":504.915,"text":"那您現在告訴本席說你們會在12月中旬提出你們的新市政的報告跟社會大眾來說明清楚是不是如此 是是不是如此那這是誰調查是中友內部調查還是政風調查你剛剛又說了2022年的時候你說那個那個你說查無不法"},{"start":505.575,"end":510.997,"text":"這個政風調查你說不能公佈耶可是你現在告訴我12月中要公佈耶沒有那個只是對外說明不是把調查報告公佈我們會對外說明我們調查的結果對外說明調查的結果所以本席還是人民希望知道到底那個總經理是誰到底有沒有這個錄音檔"},{"start":532.937,"end":559.019,"text":"這些都是關鍵啊沒有錯 這個也是我們要了解甚至於這些廠商之間的對話可能他們也只是閒聊或胡說八道也不一定但是我們就是要查本期建議經濟部長你必須要審慎對峙而不是在國會裡頭講一個什麼閒聊講一個這個胡說八道"},{"start":560.441,"end":576.238,"text":"因為這已經是三年內讓社會大眾一直質疑一直質疑一個政府沒有辦法給民眾一個明確的方向而且你們已經在13號重啟調查如果你的立場是認為他是胡說八道"},{"start":578.469,"end":603.056,"text":"閒聊 那這個立場是不對的喔不對 是不對的喔因為聳動的聲音告訴我們以前有一部很有名的電影黑金他的台詞是說什麼他說了我們國家很有錢啊如果照媒體報導的這些內容這是非常聳動的一個言語耶部長"},{"start":604.901,"end":615.414,"text":"人民的納稅錢我們公共資源的安全性這是政府必須要有責任去穩定之的是不是市長部長 針對這個案子"},{"start":622.154,"end":638.916,"text":"人民已經這麼多這麼多的質疑你認為你應該要怎麼處置你的動作你的作為應該要怎麼樣我們還是尊重政風因為政風是一條邊的他們調查他們獨立調查我們盡量可以協助他但是我們不會指導"},{"start":641.184,"end":667.605,"text":"所以本席再次強調因為人民知道真希望知道真相本席也再次強調確保整個公共資源以及民眾的生命安全這是非常的重要三接的工程大家是期待很高不管是在公安事件等等大家都勉勵但是不能如此的不清不楚從90幾億如果照媒體報導90幾億到100多億"},{"start":671.208,"end":695.817,"text":"100多億到150億 150億要到253億本席再次強調在中油的立場你們的自主性非常的高而且你們也必須要能夠掌控整個市場的樣態所以你們的巡價跟訪價這兩點要怎麼樣跟民眾來交代這是非常的重要啊部長"},{"start":697.762,"end":726.135,"text":"尋價跟訪價應該是4C吧是4C不是中油4C查出來之後再送給你們嘛你有沒有自主權你有沒有自主權所以本行一再強調你的尋價跟訪價當然台灣4C所遞送的這個建議的預算253億的話中油公司當然要去複合要去審核好 就這一句中油公司必須去複合跟審議所以"},{"start":727.284,"end":750,"text":"本席就非常希望 就成如部長您所說的下個月中 必須要提出給社會大眾說明清楚不要再讓民眾成為不法人士的一個提款機謝謝楊初英召委部長請回 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1b05676ee8d46890163294d83d43b212b9ed37f72173c5d09f88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:23:52 - 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我們是不是請部長請部長是 各位好"},{"start":10.959,"end":19.687,"text":"委員部長好我想我在10月8號的時候曾經就有關於軍中身心調適假的問題就在於部長特別我提出來了雖然我們每年有差不多一定的三天的身心調適假但是遇到汗光演習或是特別緊急狀況的時候你們認為說到底是不是可以準價那部長說要帶回去研議那目前已經超過一個多月了研議的結果到底是如何"},{"start":37.123,"end":58.004,"text":"我看過相關的規定他是不能夠影響戰備的狀況所以演習視同作戰我想在這個地方應該是不適宜讓他可以所以說當初所提到的全責主管不得拒絕是指一般的狀況如果遇到緊急狀況還是沒有辦法就對了因為我看到那個條文他在這個前沿的那個地方就是要在不影響這個"},{"start":59.025,"end":78.961,"text":"好 部長我只是希望有個非常明確的一個做法不要到時候準薄完全是給基層的這個軍官來做決定這會造成一個部分如果是完全不行就把指令清楚一點這樣可以嗎是 因為在那個條文它底下有很多 是啦那部長你說要給我研議你也要告訴我一下我到目前為止"},{"start":79.341,"end":99.041,"text":"好吧你也要告诉我一个结果我是说这个条件要非常的明确不要到时候准博是由忠诚的这个军官来做这样的一个处置这样对他们来说是不公平的好那我们今天特别提到的心理的健康我应该是说身为一个26年来都从事心理智商训练的一个老师而言我必须要去说"},{"start":99.942,"end":127.171,"text":"軍中的心理健康不是沒有制度 而是你看軍中是一個非常豐富的體系 不管是在文化 不管在於很多的資源 不管在紀律壓力之下面 其實它是不同於一般的 我隨便舉個例子來說 在場非常多中高層所有的一個將官 你們可能沒有這個問題 心裡有苦也可以往內埋吞 因為認為這是你們要承受的壓力 包括你們自己的孩子 如果告訴你還要做心理諮商 你們自己自問 你們怎麼想 可以接受嗎"},{"start":127.931,"end":149.557,"text":"所以這就是軍中文化跟我們很大的不一樣部長你同意這一點吧因為我們接受過非常多你們將領的孩子心裡有很多就覺得他自己受到父親非常嚴格的部分認為他必須要有一個比別人更有的這個韌性所以有很多的個案都來自於各位的子弟好不好所以我只是要圖寫因為我沒有一個將軍的父親所以可能要問一下這些將軍大家可以思考一下"},{"start":156.039,"end":177.155,"text":"這就是思考一下 這是我說的軍中的一個文化 還有一些壓力的一個承受親子的一些的問題 其實呈現非常多的面向那你如果看到這個部分裡面 我說實在我看到這份資料因為來自審計部對於這個軍中的這些有關心腹人力是有一些的想法的 也有一些的提出了一些的批評那我真的剛開始 對於你們所提出來的自殺 自殘 自傷"},{"start":182.139,"end":185.442,"text":"我這三個部分是完全不一樣的可不可以說明一下這到底是自殺還是自殘我把它改成自殺因為我認為這個比數比較是合理如果是自殘的話應該比這個比數更高很多結果我們政府單位所給我的資料裡面一下給我自殺一下給我自殘一下給我自殺這三個是不一樣的部長你了解嗎我需要一個很正確的比數這應該是自殺吧"},{"start":206.73,"end":225.681,"text":"就我的這邊給我的一些內部的資料我們都會以自殺這個應該是吧對 但是你們報給審計部的部分常常用自殘或是自傷所以我覺得這個必須要不分因為你自殘的比例的話一定比高於他都十倍以上啦因為自殘沒有是不是"},{"start":227.502,"end":232.646,"text":"鮑威我們都是以自殺來自殺才是正確因為這個比數我還是強調在軍中的自傷跟自殘的比數一定高於這個好幾倍以上因為這個部分裡面我們現在一定清楚我們就說如果說用自殺的比例來去看說實在的114年是統治到6月看來是有降低"},{"start":248.017,"end":253.558,"text":"去年高達37件的自殺應該是最高的一個比率目前是有進步這點要給國防部還是要一點肯定這沒有問題但是我還是要提出來因為我們的自殺已經重回國人的十大死因之一我們來看一下你們的比數我還是覺得這個人力上面我剛特別提到了為什麼很多人說不是製鬥的問題而是你們軍中的文化我們往下下面一頁來去看"},{"start":272.543,"end":288.053,"text":"目前來說呢你們倒是具有諮商證照的大概是69人那你以這個比例來看我們比較rough來看的話大概是2300人這個比數是過高的我說以專業證照來去看這個比數是高的但是你如果加上其他的話你們下面還有一個沒有錯吧 這個次數對吧 專業的"},{"start":294.359,"end":308.458,"text":"你這個數字應該是近三年考上證照的我們現在全軍具有證照的是202位那麼佔所有新府人員的比例大概是將近五成不到五成是不到五成"},{"start":308.978,"end":318.726,"text":"因為我知道你們有另外一個有關輔導輔導的人力的這個部分輔導人力裡面來說的話其實我還是有意見的 你知道為什麼嗎因為輔導人力裡面 你們當初來看的話他們的訓練來說的話很多時候呢 你們心理專業的訓練只有五個星期五個星期還有五週的訓練 你在處理你們心中目前目前越來越多年紀輕的這個新兵他們的身體調適 他們很多憂鬱 他們包括他們很多自己的這個心理上的問題這些完全不夠的 你還是需要"},{"start":338.822,"end":347.465,"text":"專業的證照 你只有五成對不起喔 這個基本上以專業來看這個是遠遠不如的因為你專業證照你要1600考只要有碩士學位跟你一般只接受五個禮拜的這樣的一個訓練這個是沒有辦法而且特別我們提到的你往往在自殺當中呢一下子就降到馬上就直接到了一個危險的階段你們沒有在第一時間當中去可以完全把它界定出來檢測出來目前來說沒有耶 這就是你們所看到的"},{"start":368.292,"end":371.853,"text":"幾乎在審計部裡面指出在108到112年這個158個自殺當中超過80%是沒有經過初級發掘預防就直接進入到危機點的那就是在你第一線當中你沒有辦法立即感受出它的一個危機性這個是一個非常危險的"},{"start":387.259,"end":403.035,"text":"你們怎麼樣來解決這個問題所以跟委員報告我想我們的這個新輔能力的編制跟我們的現源比現在還是有一個落差我們現在還是要充實我們的新輔能力那新輔能力裡面也有分二級介入輔導跟三級專業處一那三級專業處一的新輔的"},{"start":404.637,"end":419.277,"text":"專業證照能力也應該要再加強這絕對會是的而且你們現在比較好跟相對於過去來說所以我們現在在另外推出一個心理健康照護方案就是藉助於民間的支援我知道民間他不願意過來軍中擔任但是我們開放這些官兵"},{"start":420.579,"end":429.005,"text":"只能夠這個在保護隱私的情況之下他無需轉介他自動去跟民間部長我了解因為很多學生就在民間單位我剛說為什麼很多將領的孩子就是因為他們都到前面去所以才會有這些我們知道的個案但是因為隱私的關係這才是正確因為我們諮商最重視的就是倫理"},{"start":439.634,"end":460.539,"text":"然後倫理跟隱私如果都完全在你們軍中系統來的話的話萬一他發生問題而且他的心理的創傷是來自於直屬的長官你這件事情如果你的系統在你們軍中他敢不敢 他要不要呈報這就是牽涉到倫理的問題你放給外面來東西這才是一個正確的一個做法所以我們才推出這個我們現在才推出這個心理健康照護法案是 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大家都是陽光的燦爛微笑背後裡面有多少的心理的側面"},{"start":611.702,"end":621.51,"text":"希望从你们做起你们的孩子才有办法可以真的是觉得自己可以是健康的部分这是与众心肠因为有太多的个案在我们身上好不好好 谢伟"}]}},{"id":"165578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1054aadcfb38581d063294d83d43b212b9ed37f72173c5d09f88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:12:17 - 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主席有請顧部長好 有請顧部長那麼其他如果列席的官員需要補充就請自行上台是 林委"},{"start":11.493,"end":35.543,"text":"部長一個最新的訊息我想今天大概全民都已經知道就是我手上這一本當危機來臨時台灣全民安全指引這一本會開始做發放那麼我想這幾天我們也看到了陸續針對這一本的發放跟預算的使用那麼在野黨有提出質疑喔首先我先問部長喔這一本的內容"},{"start":36.383,"end":49.432,"text":"跟這一本的製作台灣是首例嗎其他國家有沒有這樣子類似的全民安全之旅當然不是因為這個在整個這個研討的過程中其實花了相當多的時間我們陸續參考很多國家"},{"start":52.274,"end":73.185,"text":"特別是很多歐洲的國家包括像瑞典、芬蘭、我想還有埃塞尼亞捷克等等的這些都有在做所以我們過去的版跟現在這一版差很多差非常多主要就是在於參照這些國家"},{"start":74.726,"end":89.744,"text":"來提供這個全民在面對這些重大災難或者是緊急狀況的時候一個安全指引我想這個是花了很多時間討論好 我想提出質疑的委員可能他們手上還沒拿過或者是只看了封面沒有看了內容"},{"start":91.786,"end":110.282,"text":"我拿到之後我特別翻閱了實質的內容他們都是質疑說是不是台灣要戰爭了但事實上這裡頭有聽到防空警報沒有錯但是也有海嘯警報然後也有資安的守護還有告訴你防災相關的知識所以我認為這一本事實上就如同封面所講的"},{"start":110.922,"end":137.096,"text":"他是一個全民安全的指引遇到各種挑戰包括這第一頁其實開宗明義就寫了就是這是一個充滿挑戰的時代所以我們在面對天災疾病極端氣候當然還有中國的侵略這個全本就是在講這些沒有錯對吧但是呢我們看到的是在在野黨委員質疑的同時喔今日海峽部長應該知道這是一個什麼媒體吧今日海峽"},{"start":140.382,"end":161.478,"text":"是中國的官媒 就馬上來奚落這一本然後甚至於說 這個要拿來墊泡麵坦白講啦 說實話 這一本喔 印得太小了如果要墊泡麵還真的不夠 不夠墊這個大碗的滿漢大餐喔 會壓不住甚至於呢 去講說 為什麼要印紙本其實這裡面就有提到啊 停電能上網嗎"},{"start":162.779,"end":180.099,"text":"所以部長我認為像這樣子的使用跟說法跟說明事實上是必要讓全民都看到本席是非常支持的因為台灣現在面臨很多的挑戰不只是中共的軍事威脅還有的就是包括極端氣候所產生的天災地變"},{"start":183.363,"end":198.324,"text":"所以在這個部分包括預算的使用我也想知道現在我們如何運用這一筆預算除了因應之外重要的是要想辦法到加戶那麼預算的使用已經被質疑了說是動用第二預備金那麼你要不要做一個解釋"},{"start":199.946,"end":218.918,"text":"我想國防部昨天記者會也好或者新聞稿也好大概都有一個說明也就是說我們認為這樣子的一個強化全民的安全意識那比較於其他各國已經有在做的都是有用普發資本的方式即使是現在這樣子的一個數位時代"},{"start":219.518,"end":236.279,"text":"所以為了降低這樣的一個數位落差同時在危急的時刻包括這個災害來臨的時候那如何要進行防災跟避難這個的時候如果有一個普派的一個資本然後讓這些不論是能夠在數位的"},{"start":237.04,"end":253.317,"text":"上面有比較高度優勢或者是比較這個偏鄉的這些老者老人或者是其他的一些不具有這樣的數位接觸的能力的人都能夠知道這樣子的一個內容對於我們整個"},{"start":254.237,"end":282.027,"text":"全民安全意識的強化是非常有幫助的所以才會決定用普發資本的方式那普發資本之後的決定之後那因為這個年度預算的這個計畫有不足因為我們本來是印小量的那現在要印成這個普發的方式那所以我們就依照這個預算法的相關規定70條的相關規定來申請這個行政院動資的第二預備金那行政院也同意"},{"start":282.506,"end":293.832,"text":"好 那麼我想問的就是在還沒有要普發喔 只是這個訊息就出來了包括中國的官媒開始虛襲落 數落那麼這是不是一個中國的認知作戰我想我們應該就國防部理事長我們要從事反認知作戰那最好的方式就是我們要盡量把我們所有認為我們應該讓全民知道的事情來讓全民知道"},{"start":311.662,"end":330.727,"text":"所以我想國際的民主國家都也會用這個普發的方式來充分的讓國民來了解要具有這個安全的意識所以我們是跟國際接軌那同時間也因為這樣子我想中國可能不是很高興但是我們應該做我們應該做的事情"},{"start":332.754,"end":350.01,"text":"好 本席是非常同意啦因為這一本小小的其實只有30頁啦齁那麼平常這個如果不願意讀書的委員的話是可以看一下對自己的安全是有一些保障的因為我們沒有一個人是局外人那另外我只有一個小小的建議啦就是這一本上面叫做"},{"start":350.831,"end":371.011,"text":"台灣全民安全指引喔但是我去網站下載的時候上面是寫全民國防手冊專區啦我是建議要名實相符啦然後就是因為喔全民國防所以就被人家做文章以為只有國防所以我建議啦就是下載的專區名字要改一下不然會找不到可以吧"},{"start":372.191,"end":395.68,"text":"因為確實過去叫全民國防守則但是這一本上面寫的是台灣全民安全指引有非常充分的討論用安全指引的方式我回去請他們檢討一下是不是修正一下在這個專區裡面我們開設一個一點進去就可以看得到的"},{"start":397.422,"end":418.625,"text":"這個就是這樣有的時候想要做文章的人就會拿來做文章那這個我只是一個小提醒當然他是一個全民國防手冊專區但是這個部分是不是可以標註更明確一點免得就是雞蛋裡挑骨頭就當作我也是雞蛋裡挑骨頭的提醒好嗎好另外我要"},{"start":420.663,"end":438.757,"text":"好那我另外要往下來質詢就是我們回到今天的題目其實有關於今天我們安排的這個國軍健康安全我在10月的時候就曾經質詢過部長了當時是針對預算來做質詢那麼今天再度排案的時候我有去理解了更多的資料我們知道總預算的原額是19萬1474人"},{"start":441.599,"end":468.417,"text":"使用率其實只有1.5%1.5%國防部對於這樣的人數喔其實就是他使用的次數只有2840人那麼在這個部分到底國防部覺得滿意這個數字嗎那麼當然這個數字我們上次有講過了他所傳達的有可能就是國防現在的心理的部分大家都很健康不需要使用但是會不會有另外一個狀況是我同時也調出了資料就是自主預約高達97%那麼這個是不是也"},{"start":472.38,"end":498.215,"text":"顯示出官兵們對於部隊來講他其實內部的心腹機制他們恐怕還是比較不信任的那麼在這個整體來說看到了這些數字之後更重要的是還有就是二兵居多然後呢少衛中衛其次那麼根據這樣的報告的結果包括我們所知所了解的就是說在這樣的使用上面喔那麼在推廣跟推展度上面是不是還是有待加強的部分"},{"start":499.35,"end":524.102,"text":"跟委員報告我首先說明一下我們這邊的樣態的分析事實上就二兵跟少數位居多的這個是用原來的三級的防止機制去得出來的分析那在這個心理健康這個照護方案我們還是強調隱私所以我們在這個地方除了他具有高風險的這個因子之外也需要做一個轉介原則上我們就維持他的隱私"},{"start":524.662,"end":539.535,"text":"那這樣的話使用的這個比例當他逐漸對這個方案信賴之後他使用的比例才會越來越高那他去求助於這些跟我們合作的機構他如果就能夠得到緩解我覺得這個本身就是有它的效益"},{"start":539.997,"end":554.309,"text":"好所以呢不論說現在的就是整體的改善的方向是如何本席的建議就是如果就如部長所說的是在宣傳跟使用度上不夠的話那麼建立這個所謂的信任機制讓他們敢使用這個也是非常重要的"},{"start":557.372,"end":573.891,"text":"那麼另外一個就是本席特別對比了就是剛剛報告也特別提到了這是從衛福部的這個想法當中來的但是這個就是不患寡患不均在北部地區就有171所合作的機構但是中部 南部 東部加起來"},{"start":575.473,"end":595.842,"text":"其實才157所不及北部的171所那麼我特別調了衛福部合作的機構的比例可以來看一下就是大概衛福部這邊只有南部東部合作的機構那我們會看到就是整體來說衛福部他的比例是平均的然後接近的那麼在這個部分"},{"start":597.563,"end":617.848,"text":"是不是有它什麼樣資源配置的理由還是說有什麼樣合作機構可能的增加因為坦白說這樣的一個配置是不是也會讓外界感受到那是不是北部的兵力比較多但是通常我們兵力配置也是一個機密嘛那在這個部分有沒有要增加或加強讓比例更均衡的部分"},{"start":618.71,"end":632.424,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為今年是2月13號開始執行所以我們今年第一年開始做那麼今年合作了328家我們在明年我們會持續的去拓展它的來源讓各個地區能夠盡量達到平衡那麼目前除了"},{"start":638.03,"end":650.37,"text":"各縣市的分佈情形當然是除了馬祖現在沒有之外那其他各縣市其實都有那麼另外使用的部分也都是由比較大的都會去使用的機率也比較高那麼明年我們會持續來努力謝謝委員"},{"start":652.813,"end":675.852,"text":"好 本席就是希望在這個資源分佈上面能夠更加平均因為我們既然關心這個題目除了關心官兵的使用率使用上是否安全使用之後是否有效果之外我認為在尋求資源的時候也能夠分佈得更平均然後讓他們有機會更容易來取得這樣的心理上面的諮商是 我們來努力好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1a2e0603bf569b16663294d83d43b212b9ed37f72173c5d094aa7cc099e138eec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:34:39 - 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雪兒部長好 這個書最近很紅那我想先表態就是說我認為去在這個無論是什麼時候提供台灣全民的安全指引無論是網路版本或是紙本我個人都沒有意見是支持的因為很多時候我們的天災也不只有一種"},{"start":32.401,"end":57.024,"text":"那但是呢我想要先問一下一個問題喔因為我們發現呢這個紙本上面有兩種不同的版本那一種是有賴清德總統簽名的一種是沒有賴清德總統簽名的我想問一下各自是印了或者是打算印幾本我先問這個好了因為第一個版本是沒有賴總統簽名的嘛那這個印了多少本呢"},{"start":59.076,"end":77.959,"text":"報委員好 我是全眾署署長有關這個第一版的是9月16號國安部記者會公布了之後發的那是小批量印的 只印了五千本五千本所以總共是多少金額大概12萬左右12萬 那請問這12萬本接下來如何處理"},{"start":78.879,"end":83.902,"text":"不是12萬本是金額12萬然後5000本這5000本基本上有分自己發一發就就沒了沒有沒有第一個他有配合了921地震這個災防日的防災宣導的時候配合來實施發放然後也也會有在門市部分部門來做發放不要浪費就好了"},{"start":102.45,"end":122.646,"text":"那再來下載量的部分我們可以看到第一個版本的在網路上的下載量是一萬六千六百一十五次但是有賴總統簽名的版本目前只有一千一百次可能是因為發佈時間的不同但我覺得既然你們已經印了第二個版本那是不是第一個版本可以在網路上面更新的時候你就把它拿掉"},{"start":123.166,"end":146.354,"text":"好不然呢我看到網路上很多人也在嘲笑啊有賴清德總統版本就一千一百個人要下載但是呢這個沒有的有一萬六千多個人要下載其實這個沒有必要嘛那是不是你們有更新的部分呢那舊的版本你就可以把它拿下來我不懂為什麼同樣的類似的內容就是差一個簽名在網路上面要放這麼多次依依在哪裡"},{"start":147.114,"end":165.563,"text":"報委員我想我跟委員做一個解釋這也要解釋喔對 第一個版本的時候那個版本裡面天然災害裡面沒有驗射狐一流我沒有 你沒有聽懂等一下 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輸入驗證號碼之後開通帳號然後你才能進到這個警政服務系統所以如果你要想喔你今天這本叫做台灣全民安全指引它是接到防空警報之後我們要立刻尋找我們合適的避難所在"},{"start":321.545,"end":330.995,"text":"這個時候你提供給他的這個APP進去以後要先下載下載以後要打開打開之後要使用者認證然後呢要確認之後開通帳號你才能夠進到APP裡面去其實一個相當繁複的過程好您剛還有講到另外一個在21頁這個是平時要先下載嗎"},{"start":343.393,"end":371.28,"text":"你覺得有多少人平時有下載來我問一下警政服務APP目前有多少人下載下載數量目前是多少所以我們應該要宣導啊對嘛沒有我問你現在目前下載人數是多少嘛下載人數我手上沒有資料是啊所以你也不知道啊所以好你說要宣導但問題是你平常就要下載那你同時又有另外一個叫做消防防災一點通的APP在這個消防防災一點通的APP它跟警政服務有哪裡不一樣部長您知道嗎"},{"start":373.338,"end":376.646,"text":"他們我想細節的部分是不是說明一下"},{"start":377.099,"end":382.083,"text":"因為如果你們大家都不知道的話那你印這個本子給大家然後自己都不知道自己的本子的內容是什麼那請問一般人他會看嗎他會下載嗎他會使用嗎遇到問題的時候真的有用嗎我們希望這個冊子是有用的因為消防防災一點通就我理解因為他的資訊會有包括配售站救濟站等等的這些位置來我們看他相對剛才警政服務的APP比較好的地方是他不需要有這麼多的註冊行為"},{"start":406.562,"end":418.377,"text":"而且它可以下載離線地圖所以其實我很懷疑為什麼你們在防空警報的這個部分要放的是警政服務的APP而不是防災的這個1.通的APP但它一樣有一個問題來我給您看一下下一張圖片"},{"start":423.724,"end":444.39,"text":"同樣齁 同樣是一個 這就在我們旁邊而已齁你看雙月食品設計南店旁邊同樣在不同 左邊是警政的左邊是警政服務的APP右邊是消防防災伊田東的APP它都是屬於防空避難處所它寫的人次左邊寫的是645人右邊寫的是1416人請問哪一個數字才是正確的"},{"start":453.932,"end":474.669,"text":"我想這個相關的這些你講的這些數字的這個部分我們再來跟這個內政部再來核對一下我知道啊 但因為你們冊子都發我的意思是說你們在因為出版機關是國防部嘛上面印QR code也是國防部印的嘛"},{"start":475.089,"end":497.663,"text":"所以你們既然你要說這是一個當危機一來臨時的台灣全民安全指引照理來說上面所有的資訊你們都要進行過查核都要知道他到底是不是正確的而不是現在已經印出來了要發了都花了錢了然後才說我們再來看看那個APP怎麼樣這是不對的再來呢我們可以看到的是說呢來"},{"start":499.588,"end":508.493,"text":"你們裡面齁 這個離線地圖的部分像 好大家知道我們在隔壁這個中心大樓我們寫的避難人數是多少人嗎"},{"start":514.878,"end":541.996,"text":"2214 在我們中心大樓裡面如果今天有防災的話我們周邊來的人要進到我們的防空殯而且是地下室 2000多人所以我的意思是說我建議國防部還有跟內政部一同針對我們全台灣也可以請台北市政府一起幫忙到底有多少的防災避難人數它是可容納的我覺得真的應該要重新的去檢討"},{"start":543.457,"end":567.502,"text":"甚至我們周邊有很多其實是相關的政府部門他也有地下室的但是很多並沒有被納進來可是有非常多的私人住宅大樓是被納進來的這棟其實位置在哪裡很清楚我就不多說了可是你部長你確定今天如果災難來臨的時候一般民眾進得去嗎這個門口大家都是鎖起來的"},{"start":573.167,"end":578.674,"text":"你確定大家進得去嗎我想委員指的是應該指的是說這個地下室他可能在那個會關著嘛對啊他在大樓是這樣子嘛車道是這樣子嘛然後我要是住戶我才有車道的這個鑰匙嘛可是他也是所謂的防控避難的處所嘛"},{"start":591.849,"end":613.346,"text":"它上面寫的一邊說它可以容1416一邊說645我現在已經不知道哪一個數字是正確了然後呢你現在告訴我這麼多的私人住宅大樓裡面都是屬於防空避難那我今天我住附近的人因為我可能住四層樓公寓我沒有地下室我要去躲啊那請問我到了這個私人住宅大樓的時候我真的可以進得去嗎"},{"start":616.985,"end":639.403,"text":"呃 我想這個其實在中間過程當中有討論是不是請全統委呃 鮑委員如果說高樓層的是就地避難然後低樓層的像地下室來來實施避難這個在 呃 我們在製作的時候警政署啊 內政部啊都有做過相關討論那另外什麼討論 你討論完之後有沒有寫在上面嗎"},{"start":640.123,"end":662.109,"text":"我的意思是說你今天的這個冊子就是要讓大家看了之後包含你的QR Code引導之後沒有任何問題我可以很直接很直覺的我就可以到現場我今天如果是我在附近的一個住戶或者是我附近經過的時候我看到了我下載了這個APP告訴我說這裡有一個地址可以收容1416頁我到了現場我進不去請問該如何是好各位人請您看到第16頁"},{"start":668.646,"end":690.086,"text":"他是針對了 第16頁是針對了天災 他有好幾種太陽包含了地震 土石流 驗射湖 海嘯他都有教民眾求生避難的一個方式我知道 我現在問的就是在防空避難嘛 你跟我講其他的做什麼呢你現在跟我講地震 你16頁寫什麼 你唸給我聽標題"},{"start":693.803,"end":699.866,"text":"你不要這樣糊弄大家喔我跟你講的事情跟你現在講的事情不一樣喔你16月標題寫什麼地震 土石流 海嘯跟颱風我問你的是什麼我問你的是防空警報跟防空避難處所這有一樣嗎"},{"start":710.733,"end":715.7,"text":"我只是跟委員報告不用只是因為你要回答我問你的問題你懂我意思嗎如果我沒有問那你就無需回答那我問了你應該要回答我不能我問你A你答我B這是不對的所以我現在只問你"},{"start":726.233,"end":746.947,"text":"關於防空警報發生的時候民眾不管從他的第7頁警政服務APP或者是他的第23頁吧21頁的消防APP裡面看到了我已上了資訊之後我到了這個地址我真的進得去嗎如果進不去的話他該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":749.161,"end":760.629,"text":"我想這個相關的這些住宅第一個當然要允許他進駐第二個就是說他如果有相關的管理人員的時候呢也要允許他進駐所以這個都要經過相關的演練那對 所以需要演練嘛可是因為現在已經演練好了嘛如果今天現在此時此刻發生了防空避難然後我要到這個大樓就在我們隔壁而已我相信大家都非常清楚是哪一棟我進得去嗎"},{"start":777.06,"end":785.165,"text":"如果進不去的時候我應該要如何跟政府單位聯絡讓我能夠進去因為當下我們應該是有進去的權利因為我們要避難那請問在這個手冊裡面有沒有告訴我們任何的辦法如果今天在政府公開所寫到的私人的避難場所私人住宅大樓的防空避難所進不去的情況之下要跟誰聯絡讓民眾可以進去避難"},{"start":806.239,"end":829.265,"text":"所以我想我們必須要逐步的擴大這樣的演練一直到全區都要能進行演練就是說當防空警報響起的時候這一個被列為這個防空避難設施的就要讓這一個讓這些非住戶的部分的民眾為了避難所需也要能夠進入部長我完全同意您的說法但是這一份是不是很快就要發給大家了預計什麼時候發放"},{"start":836.17,"end":851.647,"text":"包委員 今天會有四題字 沒題字那我覺得呢 有一件事情你們真的要檢討你不能等發放下去 大家都拿到資訊之後你們才來針對這些細節做處置"},{"start":853.809,"end":856.311,"text":"你們 那沒辦法 因為已經要發了嘛那是不是能夠盡快的去把我剛剛講的這些問題能夠來完成 避免大家收到啦真的發生的時候啊 去了現場之後啊 進不去又要在外面跑到別的地方"},{"start":870.7,"end":893.972,"text":"這就變成是這本手冊上面登載的資料跟實際發生的情況不符合也就失去了我們印刷這樣手冊的意義所以我們希望國防部可以針對這些地方再去做努力我大概簡要的跟委員報告一下在我們整個由國安會做這樣跨部會協調的時候大概就是說明第一個 防空避難的指引要逐漸的要方便"},{"start":895.213,"end":920.268,"text":"第二個就是航空避難的能夠容納的這個人數大家要經過精確統計剛剛委員有指教這兩個的系統不一致這個我們也要來下去由前動署跟請官會我們來進行一個協調那第三個當然就是說當航空警報響起的時候如何能夠讓飛助護能夠進去各個航空避難設施這個要經過不斷的演練讓大家都有這樣的意識那包括就是說"},{"start":920.908,"end":932.682,"text":"他有保全人員跟沒有保全人員他應該要怎麼樣的一個作為那最接近你的地方那在聽到防空警報的時候要做什麼樣的處置我想這個都要經過相關的演練那最後因為這個本子就要發了所以呢你們要做的剛才的這一塊你講的我都同意"},{"start":940.831,"end":952.344,"text":"但是因為要發了所以應該要盡快完成否則你會變成你發了一個本子但是實際上面不符合現實的情況那這樣就失去了硬直的意義了所以希望國防部盡快檢討好嗎好 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主委好今天我要借因為你們兩個都在財務會今天來到財務會我要借一個議題今天你們兩個在質詢一個問題有關於生威能源商業的爭議這兩天我看到新聞媒體有在報導這件事情發展到現在的結果"},{"start":40.524,"end":45.887,"text":"是政府輸業者也輸而且也影響民眾對於再生能源的看法當然對於我們台灣未來發展再生能源當然也會有一定的衝突我想請問部長常志到目前為止深威其實在今年6月18號第二季其實已經發布因為他是上市三位公司他就發布了重訊"},{"start":64.058,"end":82.13,"text":"離岸風電的建制成本大幅的提高不管是俄烏的戰爭海象的問題或者是原料的上漲等等有很多問題我想不用在這邊贅述經濟部在這一段時間之內到底做了哪些事情來排解台電跟廠商的爭議"},{"start":82.89,"end":107.368,"text":"因為這件事情發展到現在的結果是大家都不願意看到我們台灣發展再生能源是輸的很多業者未來本來有機會投入幫台灣再衝一下把綠能再生能源提高這是國家政府政策重要目標但是現在看起來因為很多不可抗力的因素沒關係 因為後面要送工程會去做調解但看起來是三輸業者輸 政府也輸然後民眾對這個看法也有問號"},{"start":111.404,"end":132.114,"text":"勝威公司依照同胞的合約承攬台電公司離岸風電二期的部分有關於工期或是這個預算或是因為這個工資提高的關係那這個經濟部在不管是契約的這個所謂的協調協處的過程現在是已經送到工程會來做調解"},{"start":133.415,"end":140.279,"text":"6月18 現在都已經11月了 12月了要送工程會 工程會怎麼判沒關係因為工程會是獨立專業的單位 我們尊重"},{"start":143.427,"end":167.928,"text":"但是已經拖了四五個月在上面繞這個是造成現在三叔最專業你們經濟部做了什麼沒有 我們針對李漢峰第二期的工程針對他在施工中獲得的一些的困難我們經濟部有協調 這是第一點第二點 針對於這個契約的這個履約的爭議在送工程會之前因為它涉及的事項相當的多所以經濟部有先去做履約爭議的協處的一個作業"},{"start":171.846,"end":183.247,"text":"協處了幾次有結果嗎因為這個協處的結果兩方的這個差距還是相當的所以決定送工程會"},{"start":184.833,"end":210.612,"text":"我覺得那個我尊重後面沒有共識競速的送工程會因為工程會畢竟是獨立單位趕快讓工程會有一個結果出來我尊重工程會後續的結果但是要加快腳步因為現在看起來就是三書那我要請問陳主委工程會陳主委目前對於這些案子調解或建議的方向工程會的方向是什麼大概什麼時候會有結果出來他們已經到工程會申請這個理業正義調解"},{"start":212.193,"end":234.51,"text":"所以在申訴委員會裡面也派這個 我知道 主委因為現在看起來速度不快 就是說工程會調解的結果是什麼 我們不介入但是必須要盡快的去進入 趕快後面排序其中有一部分已經同意和解了就是關於顧問款 保留款這一部分已經和解了那剩下價金跟工期 那麼還在調解當中"},{"start":236.621,"end":264.986,"text":"沒有關係就是沒有辦法有共識你們就盡速的開會有一個結果出來否則Pending在那邊是造成刪除這是我主要問今天問題的原因好時間先暫停三位請回我是不是可以請主席長跟環境部今天沒有來齁稍微今天沒有衛福部有有有有衛福環境部有都沒有齁環境部有喔都有是不是好那請環境部跟衛福部"},{"start":266.681,"end":282.929,"text":"環境部是主席長那個無論是剛才大家提到特別預算我還是要提醒一下特別預算好用他可以年度很長他可以沒有公債法的限制但是跟財化法是兩回事情所以"},{"start":284.169,"end":303.333,"text":"這件事情我們後續還有機會再討論我今天還是要回到有關於兩次風災之後我知道這一次兩次風災之後我們有編列在環境部有編列災後廢棄物的清理跟災後疾病防治的部分我也關注到環境部對於環境的消毒預算編列了4億9500萬左右的經費"},{"start":307.114,"end":325.172,"text":"但是我們都知道每次風災過後都可能有病沒聞的滋生都有可能有感染疾病主席長你知道為什麼這一次衛福部沒有編列相關的預算嗎對於疾病的防治還是他們覺得公務預算來支應就夠了有編嗎 來衛福部回應我 有沒有編"},{"start":328.277,"end":343.422,"text":"包委員我們這次其實主要是針對這一個在災區那邊的一些診所他們裡面他們也有受損總共大概有10家然後這裡面有一些相關的一些你不用編預算喔萬一如果造成重大疾病的感染"},{"start":344.102,"end":358.355,"text":"我們現在目前有關於這個部分有關於你不要跟我講有關於疾病防治的部分你不要跟我講現在有關因為現在無論是流感就是說我們現在對於疾病的防治我們公務預算有現在因應現在流行感染疾病的做法"},{"start":359.657,"end":377.937,"text":"風災這是特別加進來的你就這麼有自信就不會有重大疾病的傳染感染你不用再另外再編一筆預算框在裡面去應付這些重大風災並沒有能支撐譬如說現在是重大登革熱流行的期間你應該去編列一筆預算放在裡面去做支應嘛"},{"start":379.298,"end":398.536,"text":"這是第一點我要提醒你的地方你這個是放棄放棄閹割自己預算 編列的權利第二個 災後的疾病的防治的重大責任你應該編列一筆你現在我們在流行A流 B流感那個都有公務預算要去支應嘛是的 幫委員我們在CDC這邊都有編列相關的預算"},{"start":399.301,"end":422.36,"text":"所以這個就是衛福部的書但是我要提醒環境部我要提醒環境部因為我們已經兩次大的風災我覺得你們現在對於病媒文資深都是清除為主 噴藥為輔那現在針對於災後疾病防治的目標有沒有把握能夠提升病媒文資深還有包括列能的就是說列管輔導的量呢有沒有其他新的做法可以處理"},{"start":424.27,"end":432.137,"text":"病沒穩的資深我們還是循道清刷你們現在都是不斷的噴藥噴藥噴藥嗎不是 循道清刷啦資深遠的清楚是最重要的 不是噴藥"},{"start":434.526,"end":454.221,"text":"有沒有更進一步的做法有沒有其他更好的做法或國際間有沒有其他的做法可以處理因為現在看起來面對極端氣候的挑戰大風災雖然我們不樂意見但是我覺得對於病媒文資深量能的管理跟列管我們應該有更好的做法跟方法才對你有沒有其他的方式可以處理"},{"start":455.863,"end":480.654,"text":"這我們再參考看你沒想到的方法所以這件事我今天問這個議題是凸顯出來主席長下次要編列這樣子的預算如果有我希望沒有我覺得衛福部跟環境部就是疏忽了在這一塊無論是疾病的防治或者管理病媒體的管理或疾病的防治都沒有編列相關的預算我們在環境經理有編預算"},{"start":481.454,"end":499.87,"text":"我知道啦但是我說你的量能跟你的量能跟輔導列管跟親屬的部分有沒有更進一步的其他的做法我覺得現在面對極端氣候政府不能只有我過去怎麼做我現在就怎麼做我覺得應該與時俱進有更多不同的做法"},{"start":500.851,"end":523.586,"text":"我們才看到一個政府AI政府進步行動政府進步的做法才對而不是跟過去都一樣我們過去不知道也會有艷澀湖這麼大的一次一大風災然後這麼多人投入那後面有可能產生的短期的疾病我覺得這要有不同的做法來列管那我非常遺憾這一次我們沒有看到環境部有進步的做法我更沒有看到"},{"start":524.626,"end":534.436,"text":"衛福部在這一塊編列相關的預算否則如果是大疾病的傳染的話你會排擠到我們一般公務預算去做疾病的管制跟防疫以上 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方董事長好 請三位 謝謝兩位 方董事長這位好部長好"},{"start":28.394,"end":51.517,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別安排的中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程款項的爭議的部分剛剛那個張偉這邊一直在問總經理到底是誰我記得方董事長之前在司法法制委員會曾經有提過這個總經理不是你應該是你前任的總經理針對這個部分可不可以請董事長做一個說明因為你剛剛一直閃避也不願意講總經理"},{"start":52.398,"end":75.91,"text":"到底是誰 可是這個法制其實你有明確講到 可不可以請董事長做個說明我當時回應就是說 這個錄音檔週刊所報導這個文字呢講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理 這第一點那麼第二點就是說 就以我個人來講 在當時那個階段呢我並不是擔任總經理的職務 是擔任副總經理的職務"},{"start":76.63,"end":101.592,"text":"所以你講的是前總經理嗎其實我在想說前總經理的名字是誰啊我沒有講這個裡面說你講那時間的比對出來啊就說那總經理當時是副總嗎當時總經理不是你啊所以當時總經理是誰當時總經理是前董事長李順心李順心喔OK好那我想說因為今天我們在講說中油三接相關的問題啦其實對我們來說的時候"},{"start":105.188,"end":123.409,"text":"福報空城管這東西很重要可是對整個國人來講的時候怎麼樣子讓台灣的能源安全更重要那中央會要降低輸氣跟移運的風險提升儲槽的一個容量並穩定供應國內的一個天然氣從一階一直規劃到了七階經濟部長這沒問題吧"},{"start":126.653,"end":153.742,"text":"一階到七階嘛 我整理得很清楚那我們整個擴增儲存的容量大概總而要到多少 部長你知道嗎我只知道要儲存多少天 安全存量安全存量多少天現在是11天嘛 那將來會到14天什麼時候到14天116年116年要到14天這個地方我簡單來做一個更"},{"start":154.162,"end":178.15,"text":"完整的一個說明 其實我們目前從一階到七階這邊的時候整個LNG那個儲槽的總容量最多可以到達889萬公柄整個量到889萬公柄到目前為止大概只有165萬公柄目前的儲量就是增建跟新增的部分大概只有165萬公柄針對這個部分那個剛剛部長直接講說儲量現在是11天"},{"start":183.832,"end":207.333,"text":"不過因為之前 審計部之前有曾經提到目前的儲量可能不到11天只有10.6天這8月份的時候 就審計部特別提出來的一個數字如果不到11天就是違法的一個狀態所以針對這個部分的時候呢針對這個部分我們經濟部 中油這邊要怎麼樣去符合我們天然氣法的要求"},{"start":208.339,"end":227.12,"text":"以目前這樣進度一直裹足不前然後很多的案件我們從一階到七階目前在走的時候呢只有一階跟二階就現有然後新增的部分我想請教一下兩個問題新增的部分目前有哪幾個地方已經新建完成"},{"start":229.184,"end":252.486,"text":"新增的部分現在其中在是在永安台中以及周濟高雄周濟這三個地方的接收站這現有的啦我說新增的部分新增就在周濟高雄周濟所謂的七街七街完成了嗎建造中建造中很多"},{"start":253.649,"end":266.495,"text":"董事長你把我這整個東西去整個看一下如果說我們這邊有些進度有一些沒有非常跟上的時候你給我們一些指導我目前看起來的時候我說已經興建中的"},{"start":268.09,"end":296.148,"text":"這些都在檯面上面 程度不一樣那我說已經興建完成的 有哪幾個地方已經興建完成的有啊 在第一階就是永安嘛二階台中 但是本來現有的啦我說興建 新增的部分 我這邏輯很清楚嘛現有的是現有的 不然現在天然氣不可能發電啦新增的部分 從一階到七階當中的時候看起來只有三階的部分 三階兩座出差了"},{"start":296.609,"end":301.017,"text":"兩做OK了嘛 對不對那什麼時候可以投入運營"},{"start":302.932,"end":327.518,"text":"已經運營了已經正式在運營了是不是所以新增的部分就這兩座投入運營那我這邊想問一下部分就是說按照現在這情況我們目前只有165萬公秉在增加新增的兩個部分的時候我們目前占到我們889萬公秉整個量大概是百分之多少"},{"start":330.266,"end":348.894,"text":"我是不曉得這個數字是從哪裡來的而且是包含哪些內容但是我相信這裡面有包含了四街的除潮在裡面一街到七街全部都算起來了因為四街是屬於台電的所以我沒辦法去回答直接現在就回答你這個問題"},{"start":351.035,"end":366.197,"text":"那針對這個部分因為我們關心的狀態是整個的一個擴建計畫的一個進度那現在又碰到了這個三接這個第二期招標這個部分碰到一個疑雲的狀態的時候疑似彼岸的狀態的時候"},{"start":366.858,"end":381.052,"text":"我們認為他可能會被拖到所以針對這樣的情況我們關心的是整個擴建的計畫跟進度那我想就中油這邊可以掌控的部分整理完之後之後到本辦公室給我們很清楚的一個資料好不好好"},{"start":382.273,"end":405.411,"text":"那我想說針對整個經濟部下下這個中油這樣子的一個標案的疑雲我這邊要特別提到一個部分就針對台電這個部分也有一個類似的一個情況就是合一合二廠的盒子燃料室室內乾式儲存設備這個部分部長知道這個案子嗎我知道"},{"start":407.003,"end":433.64,"text":"215億的那個高額的一個採購案那因為開的是國際標所以兩個廠商兩個廠商都是美國的廠商那目前有一家廠商他們覺得受到不公平的一個對待對台電對台灣來說都是影響到國際的一個形象的一個部分那針對這個部分的時候部長有沒有去了解台電這裡面情況到底是怎麼一回事為什麼會讓國際的廠商"},{"start":435.781,"end":463.811,"text":"認為他們受到不公平的對待而且提出申訴我是不是請台電說明一下可以跟委員報告因為廠商提出的疑慮台電目前都還在釐清中那剛才有提到說有美國籍的那個中國籍的部分我們有檢視過那個人確實是中國出生但是他已經放棄中國籍什麼時候放棄中國籍這個我們還要再查但他現在確定的是只有一個美國籍而已"},{"start":464.091,"end":480.607,"text":"所以你們不知道他什麼時候放棄中國籍委員要的更細的可能要回去再提供給委員因為美國的廠商就是檢舉得非常非常的具體因為他說他取得"},{"start":481.789,"end":505.925,"text":"美國籍的時間跟他擔任這個專案的時間有明顯的一個落差在他當專案的時候已經多次用大陸籍的身份到台灣來而且可能進到我們核能相關的一個設備核能設備就跟國安問題有關如果是這樣的情況完全踩到了目前陸委會設定下來的兩岸關係的紅線"},{"start":507.866,"end":529.708,"text":"所以針對這個部分我們需要很清楚的知道您其實提到說他是美國籍他什麼時候取得美國籍他什麼時候放棄中國籍他過去幾次來台做公務的工作的時候是不是用觀光簽證進來還是如何這個部分是不是都會一起給我們一個交代"},{"start":531.219,"end":551.955,"text":"還是跟委員報告我們會提供那針對涉及國安的關鍵基礎措施台電還是一樣會遵守相關的規定只要是中國企業我們是不同意他所以這個部分非常非常的具體那我們希望既然是採國際標就希望能夠讓所有的國際的廠商都覺得台灣是一個公平"},{"start":552.967,"end":579.978,"text":"公開去合理招標的一個情況而不會有獨厚特定廠商的一個問題那我想說針對這個部分我們希望部長對於中油跟台電的部分這兩大就是以往被我們國人都認為是優質的一個國營企業可是現在不斷的涉及到一些疑似弊案的問題我們希望部長這邊能夠對中油跟台電的部分"},{"start":580.919,"end":586.626,"text":"嚴加監督管理然後也給本辦公室很清楚的一個後續相關的資料好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d171ea6f3a3b1d7cb10799e8a58cec5c3e9ed37f72173c5d090ecafa458f489ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:23:33 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有請石部長 中廷長請石部長還有張司長 張司長"},{"start":18.223,"end":34.135,"text":"好 三位早這個家暴受害者的心聲就是恕神恕絕我在這邊就8月6號有跟在衛福部也跟世華醫院應該我們這個法務部也都有討論過目前保護令這個發起的時間"},{"start":37.717,"end":54.141,"text":"是不是可以盡速的去縮短但是根據保護師的資料普通保護令平均是50天暫時保護令是平均23天緊急保護令能當天發出但是當事人不能申請必須第三者就檢察官 警察機關或縣市主管機關"},{"start":56.542,"end":82.982,"text":"但這個現代婦女經紀委特別指出台北第一院這個一年的新收不包含在案的案件113年就有一萬四千多件平均下來一名法官可能就被分配到一千多個案件嘛這坦白講這是很辛苦一件事情那我當時就特別指出說這個被害者開始申請保護令的時間其實是政治最危險的那個時段"},{"start":84.624,"end":99.122,"text":"因為這個罪最高度會激怒加害者的時間就是在這個點當時大家也都有認同這個都是不用再贅述的部分但是我為什麼還是在提醒那個時候就是說"},{"start":100.552,"end":126.922,"text":"這個時間保護令要等最多還有五十多天以上的平均暫時保護令二十幾天緊急保護令當天能夠發出就好像只有可以救到緊急保護令的對象而已的受害者這是很奇怪一件事情嘛那8月6號討論完了之後希望可以加快但是坦白說各位可以回答我說有加快了嗎"},{"start":127.842,"end":149.937,"text":"哪一個階段的 普通保護令加快幾天暫時保護令加快幾天 有人可以打呼我嗎如果沒有 來 我再給各位看一些時間我是認定是一個 這是一個關鍵的事情啦關鍵的問題所在 這個問題如果不解決GPS再裝幾個 似乎好像沒有辦法解決這些問題"},{"start":152.625,"end":168.967,"text":"不然你們現在可以馬上打呼我嗎就是說縮短了嗎平均是縮短幾天在這個階段縮短幾天在這個階段縮短幾天8月6號講的到現在已經將近三個月時間三個月的作業時間沒辦法讓我們不管普通保護令 暫時保護令"},{"start":169.367,"end":184.481,"text":"都可以因為相關的事件 以而在災難上的發生然後督促我們政府相關機關可以大家可以坐下來好好去檢討 去應變把這個保護令的發起時間去縮短如果三個月過後都沒有 顯然"},{"start":186.018,"end":214.183,"text":"坦白講 我覺得這些事情還是會層出不窮地在持續發生而不是裝了多少個GPS可以去導正 可以去改善可以去降低這樣的傷害這是第一件事情那第二件事情你看我們面對這麼大量的這個案件的數量過老的地方法院的法官要如何有效地去減輕壓力強化保護令流程 縮短時間我想這個是一定是衛福部跟司法院你們必須去共同面對的課題"},{"start":215.083,"end":232.091,"text":"而不是維持現狀讓法官面對家暴的暗海詐騙的暗海看不到盡頭而家暴受害者也可能也只能在這個恐懼中一直要等到這麼多天家暴令才可以下來那如果今天你們沒辦法打呼我是不是一個月內啦"},{"start":234.261,"end":245.802,"text":"我們再給一個月的時間 衛護部 司法院 防護部是不是大家可以好好坐下來討論出一個如何縮短保護令花期的時間然後給衛防委員會可以吧"},{"start":246.485,"end":264.59,"text":"跟委員說明確實以現在的案量來講這個法官的那個負荷很重所以我們之前考論的這個結論是去強化那個風險的辨識把那個高風險的個案先挑出來不然全部要一下子全部縮短是"},{"start":265.71,"end":281.037,"text":"難度很高啦因為他的負荷太重案子太多了所以我們在強化前端那個高風險個案能夠先高度先先把那個最高風險的抓出來然後去強化是不是暫時保護令或緊急保護令來說短"},{"start":282.358,"end":308.174,"text":"大概是這樣的概念去那次也有討論到這樣但是所謂的我們在一個時間的點譬如說一季裡面還是半年裡面你到底這樣的一個多少比例叫做高風險然後這個高風險你到底縮短不管暫時的保護令還是普通保護令到底縮短幾天有數據可以給我們做參考嗎如果有最好嘛 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":308.994,"end":328.51,"text":"我們把數據整理一下好 謝謝部長好那另外一個我也給部長還有各位長官看幾個案件啦齁這個都是相關的一些報導那第一個案件加班長嗆家裡有保護令也沒有用也沒有用這個加錢再起訴疑神裁決這個續押齁這個案件齁 大致上是這樣"},{"start":330.811,"end":349.864,"text":"這個家人是在與家人產生嫌隙口角9月6號持棒棍到齊妹的家園市市場的攤位搗毀冰箱等等等然後被警方逮捕移送並緊急申請保護令禁止男子靠齊妹攤位至少100公尺這個男子也被撕毀"},{"start":353.803,"end":379.319,"text":"但是又馬上到其妹的攤位那對家人說有保利有沒有用他還是被放出來9月9號隔三天而已他以探望母親為藉口連續兩次前往攤位的樓上住家然後在第二次探望離開時因為其妹不在攤位嘛並要求其妹員工轉達所前需求當場召聚然後他又涉嫌出院恐嚇要叫人做掉他們的員工等等等那當天警方據報逮捕這個"},{"start":383.461,"end":409.295,"text":"這個家人 移送羈押10月20號 嘉義地方法院認為攔指有繼續這個羈押的 羈押的必要就裁定羈押 羈押三個月好 這是一個案子嘛 你看喔這個案子來講 有保護令有沒有用他還是被放出來了所以 在羈押三個月之後你們覺得這樣就導正了嗎 他就向善了嗎他就不會再去講說 有保護令有什麼用嗎也不可能啦"},{"start":410.322,"end":430.343,"text":"坦白講不可能 我講這個案例 你再看第二個案例金門家暴人女犯不怕被關再度這個瘋狂揮踢踹母召雞鴨這是去年的事情他去年發生被判決有期住院確定並執行完畢今年9月17 又再來一次"},{"start":431.448,"end":440.54,"text":"好 然後第二個案子加霸龍入獄關三個月出獄一天後又衝往其妻的住處違反保護令 備受威壓"},{"start":442.931,"end":462.011,"text":"連續這兩個案件 三個案件我要讓稍微長官看一個數據嘛請大家看這個表格這是110年到113 這四年就好了節節上升的申請保護令的這樣的一個相關的一些統計人數是逐年攀升委員保護令幾乎都是居易也就是說一日以上未滿60日"},{"start":463.312,"end":487.433,"text":"佔了這四年的77.26%然後六個月以下是18.71%剩下的是六個月以上到三年以下的這個區間有近四年全部僅43人剩下的六個月以上到三年以下的這四年裡面僅43人 佔不到1% 0.51然後尤其三年以下的這四年只有兩個人"},{"start":489.246,"end":511.977,"text":"只有兩個人 這個數據應該你們都有統計應該也會有這個數據嘛我要凸顯這個問題是說GPS很重要 但是你看到這些數據之後他們還是持續的微軟保護鏈的代價好像是很低啊 太低了 對不對一天到G59天的 是佔了高達七成八左右"},{"start":513.109,"end":538.725,"text":"七成八左右 那一年以下剛剛特別已經講 我就不再贅述甚至這些好像是屢試不爽沒你怕啦 沒你多嚴重啦假假拘役啦 假假一年下嘛 假假兩年下就對了而且到最後的比例三年以下 四年才有兩個人而已所以他不怕啦 不怕你怎麼處理你們要怎麼處理 你們問簡單答案喔"},{"start":541.107,"end":565.385,"text":"也就是說家暴法的第61條顯然要嚇阻家暴的力道已經為不足道了啦數據會顯示嘛 昨年攀升比例 局域的比例就這樣了要不要看一下 要不要回應我一下要不要朝向這個部分來做修法"},{"start":568.393,"end":589.533,"text":"一件事保護你於無誤吧所以你就不要客氣啊你不就應該將對法律的本質去做看怎樣大幅度去做調整還是不能調 不能調就是主點就持續攀升然後那個拘役的1到59天的比例就是這麼高不該啊"},{"start":592.267,"end":620.495,"text":"接待召委排這個是非常重要但是如果你看到這些數據然後加報61條裡面又不去做修正你的本質永遠都不會改變嘛跟委員說明今天的有委員的版本也會有針對違反保護令罪去提高他的刑責那也許可以來討論看看提高有用嗎"},{"start":621.943,"end":636.311,"text":"然後判的法官是怎麼處理是這樣子你們怎麼遇到這個問題好像都沒辦法答我然後你看看我看看 大家互相看看"},{"start":639.477,"end":659.264,"text":"行事廳的黃法官來做這個法官裁決裁判的那請說明主席站上來了 快點好 是 謝謝委員那其實關於違反家暴法的部分的話因為現在目前為止違反保護另一罪是屬於比較輕罪的部分那就誠如委員這邊所講的目前大部分的那個刑度都是落在德意科法監的情況"},{"start":660.525,"end":674.919,"text":"那只有比較特殊個案的情況下才會判得比較重那這邊我們都是尊重個案法官的裁處啦那以上是簡短的對嘛 就是尊重個案法官的裁處沒有錯啊 加重沒有用啊法官就是要輕判啊邏輯上就是這樣嘛現狀就這樣嘛這個樣態就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":678.576,"end":693.999,"text":"所以你跟聽長整個GPS也不好啊是 報告委員我剛剛在前一位委員我有報告我們陸續由我們聽長親自跟所有一線在裁判的刑事庭法官"},{"start":694.6,"end":700.886,"text":"我們的刑事廳長跟我配合一起跟他們做這個所謂的演習跟相關的意見溝通讓民意跟委員表達的意見讓他們充分的更去審酌這個保護被害人的必要性跟刑責的相當性當然這個沒有拘束但是這樣的一個"},{"start":715.959,"end":743.661,"text":"也就所謂的研習會或者這樣的促進會有相當的影響我們剛剛委員有講我們在今年今年的戰保令已經就是以前要二十幾天現在已經加速了兩天多這個當然不足不足以向你們報告但我們還是繼續有很多的方案來促進謝謝好啦 你說聽起來說不足以報告你自己講的也是也心虛虛嘛對不對那你還是報告了嘛這兩天多嘛"},{"start":744.541,"end":770.741,"text":"所以是這樣啦 我覺得我們面對問題就是要解決問題 大家都會講嘛那我們是不是可以真的加快嘛然後你們是不是可以趕快做下來到底這事情怎麼去做因應嘛然後加保61條的這一個部分是不是要要有所積極的因應琢磨去做修正嘛我是不是請部長 請相關主管能不能做下來兩個星期內研議啦這個加快速度啦 可不可以 好不好"},{"start":771.902,"end":788.238,"text":"兩個星期啦 別再拖啦8月6號講到現在了這兩件事情 保護令的縮短還有這一個行者的部分可以吧好 謝謝 好 已經答應了好不好 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有請財政部部長 主席請莊部長 主席長經濟部次長 陳主席長內政部部長 經濟部賴次長工程會主委還有工程工程委員會陳主委是內政部劉部長各位大家早安是 委員好是 我想表達立場支持預算 同島一命那本席也來自於就是台南丹納斯颱風的重災區"},{"start":30.385,"end":52.89,"text":"那我深知道就是說災後的一個重建對地方的一個重要尤其這個漫漫的長路所以錢非常的重要可是在支持預算的同時我更善盡的希望各位盡到高標準高監督的一個責任那當然就是說這個透明度非常重要"},{"start":53.75,"end":76.557,"text":"會計的責任財政的距離絕對不能鬆散那我們也希望這270億可以做到看得到查得到責任責任大家各自負擔那我想從這個圓餅圖裡頭我們來看到這一次270億的一個預算他集中在這個治水跟道路光是經濟部就佔了90億"},{"start":77.737,"end":104.091,"text":"然後交通部有44.2億這看起來超過一半所以未來的五年這個地方其實透明度最容易被挑剔的所以我們希望就是說跟各位各位請教一下如果確保這個條例適用的範圍具有最大的一個彈性跟那個效率你們有沒有辦法做到各位你們在座的每一位"},{"start":105.83,"end":121.173,"text":"應該是大家都沒有問題吧這個部分我們會沒有問題絕對會做得到而且我們希望說透過這個預算的支持來保護馬太安溪南北兩岸堤防的安全來確保我們國民的生活"},{"start":121.593,"end":136.029,"text":"有没有办法做到就是说如果我像我现在问你说那个你的输进输进了多少立方有没有办法更精准的去承诺说可以讲到了就是说我公开我已经就是"},{"start":136.67,"end":165.575,"text":"那個我的這個效益的一個指標我可以講到更精準就是說馬太安溪上游的A段A段它的標投入了多少錢這個有沒有辦法做這麼透明的一個那個就是系統性的一個這個沒有問題我們過去工程表案除了依照工程公共工程委員會的這個所謂的透明之外水利署也建立了一個廉政平台"},{"start":166.235,"end":185.506,"text":"那在這邊我跟委員說明舉例來講我們在年底之前本來需要預計輸進是100萬立方公尺然後截至到目前預計輸進是將近40萬立方公尺但是我們現在本來是100萬現在是輸進到40萬所以你都可以非常我們現在輸進"},{"start":190.782,"end":205.811,"text":"的進度已經超過我們年底預定的進度超過了200萬立方公尺所以就是說在這個資訊上面都可以非常的那個明確然後一起的成效也可以非常清楚的去表達是不是"},{"start":206.711,"end":225.605,"text":"對 我們有設定明年訊息之前要完成的黃紅保護的標準還有包括預算執行期間的保護標準那接著我想請教財政部部長我想在這個第二項承諾的時候強化監督的機制那我們要杜絕這個會計跟財政的一個漏洞"},{"start":226.525,"end":255.625,"text":"當然我們知道特別條例它有很大的一個彈性它在行政部門裡頭就是說它賦予它很多的一個彈性那來執行那相對的立法院的一個審核跟監管的一個機制就必須要再一次強化那我想在這裡問一下就是說財政部部長如果這個270億那會不會就是排擠到你其他的中央的建設的一個經費"},{"start":257.105,"end":257.445,"text":"所以是沒有問題"},{"start":274.993,"end":291.825,"text":"這個部分因為這個是一個非常重要的而且對於這個國民的安全生命財產的安全很重要所以這個部分是用舉債來做支應而且又納入這個特別預算但是仍然要受債務控管的一個管制受債務控管在這裡我想請教內政部部長如果"},{"start":294.927,"end":310.71,"text":"我們用什麼樣的一個項目可以去取代代收代付的方式因為你中央你是用核實補助那回到的地方是代收代付那你什麼樣的項目是絕對不能用代收代付的方式呢"},{"start":311.351,"end":340.364,"text":"部長我們可能會尊重那個主計跟會計單位的說法吧因為所謂的強化監督機制就是怕說是不是裡面在招標的過程當中會有弊案那我們那個在中央的部分以我們這次災後重建是下水道的部分我們一定會強力監督好 部長那我想你講得非常的清楚那我是不是請教那個主計總長就是說這一個項目什麼樣的一個項目就是說你不可以用代收代付來那個"},{"start":341.104,"end":359.117,"text":"就是執行一般如果是緊急或災害的一個項目或者是他配合中央這種重大的政策一定時間完成的這個部分我們就可以用代收貸付那代收貸付等於是中央要負責審核的一個責任這個責任在誰身上"},{"start":359.597,"end":375.077,"text":"在地方政府還是在中央政府地方政府是負責執行但是部會他如果補助他的會計人員要進行審查這樣子他的核銷相關的核銷要回到部會來做審查就回到部會來做審查是 代收代付的部分大部分是這樣子"},{"start":376.619,"end":405.641,"text":"那這樣子我再請教謝謝主席長我再請教我們工程會主委對於線上工程的一個看板這個我們有辦法做到了就是說地點那個標案的名稱得標的廠商得標金額我們相信這個是比較簡單的可是工程進度的一個百分比還有議定實施日這個其實基本上就是說你可以不可以同時納入第三方公正單位的查核的結果"},{"start":406.061,"end":422.56,"text":"我們可以確保重建的品質是不會加速因為加速而被犧牲的所有的公共工程大概5000萬年執行5000萬年以上工程會都有專案列管那會定期去查核會定期去查可是如果沒有超過5000萬呢"},{"start":424.522,"end":443.575,"text":"機關自己查核機關自己查那你們有沒有把握就是說在這一次花蓮縣政府他就是說五千萬以下那讓機關自己查會不會出現什麼疲弱呢這次的特別預算大概都全部中央在執行那有些補助農業部的補助是透過地方的農會或縣政府的農會處去造冊"},{"start":445.436,"end":472.234,"text":"那其中大概有一部分跟下水道或這個污水處理有關的會補助給地方政府來執行不過也超過五千萬好 主委那我在這裡再特別請教就是說主計長還有財政部長還有工程會主委就是說你們公開的記報跟會計的監督有沒有辦法用統一的一個格式有沒有辦法這樣來執行統一的格式"},{"start":473.254,"end":488.506,"text":"我們過去特別預算執行的往歷是每一季會由主計總署向大院來報備是 是用報備的方式就是備查就是每一季都會執行情形都會向大院來報備"},{"start":489.815,"end":501.81,"text":"所以就是說基本上在這一次這個270億我們也可以用相同的一個模式相同的一個方式的一個監督我們也願意這樣子做啦好 那個主計長有沒有問題"},{"start":504.738,"end":525.568,"text":"這個部分我們是每一季都會做統計這個部分但是有時候工程進度和實際付款進度是不太相同這兩個還是有落差這個我們也會顯現出來好 那財政部部長來統一的格式我想這個部分我們一定用制式的格式對債務舉借的部分執行情況用制式的格式來做表達好 謝謝 謝謝大家謝謝主席好 謝謝我們那個委員接下來請李崑澤委員"}]}},{"id":"165573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d10e1b825d7277da457e24dce8f91e16ee9ed37f72173c5d093fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:52:00 - 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麻煩鄭部長還有陳局長兩位早安我們今天討論的一樣就是大家都知道這個洗錢集團 太子集團"},{"start":28.601,"end":52.261,"text":"我想洗錢我們都知道就是把原本可能有些涉案或一些來源不明的錢把它洗白但是洗錢它還有一個前置犯罪並不是說今天財產來源不明或怎麼樣就構成犯罪它有一個前置犯罪所以我在想 我想請教一下局長我國的洗錢防治規定很清楚它建立在一個前置犯罪之上"},{"start":54.743,"end":74.445,"text":"這個前置的犯罪包括詐欺賭博逃漏稅等等的但這個部分你同意嗎我同意我完全同意所以錢罪加洗錢這個是洗錢犯罪成立的一個構成要件這個應該沒有問題這一次我們看到太子集團的資料金管會送給我們本委員會的專利報告裡面有寫得很清楚"},{"start":75.907,"end":93.626,"text":"108年到現在有10家銀行對太子相關的公司申報了52次的可疑交易那櫃局呢也有發新婦稿澄清洗房處總共做了26份的分析報告送給友軍還有其他的地方嘛對不對這沒問題吧好 數據沒錯"},{"start":95.828,"end":112.409,"text":"那我想請教你一個最核心的問題這26份報告以及你們所收到的52次的可疑交易你們FIU有或是你們櫃局有沒有去報請檢察官指揮偵辦因為到美方通報之前"},{"start":113.41,"end":129.361,"text":"诚如刚刚那个委员讲的这个洗钱必须要有一个前置犯罪所以从那个银行端他来申报以后其实我们经过加持分析是逐步的去标定到底是哪些人可疑哪些可疑的资产在什么位置"},{"start":129.981,"end":154.371,"text":"對 所以這段時間其實是逐步的在標定然後另外一方面就是我們必須要去蒐證他的前置犯罪答案就是沒有 從108年到現在我們經歷過 經歷過了52次由銀行的可疑交易的通報再加上我們的FIU有做了26份的分析報告但是並沒有向檢察官"},{"start":155.611,"end":177.91,"text":"報請指揮嘛 這個結論應該沒錯嘛在執行前要報請指揮法務部長 部長你當時也是北檢的檢察長嘛那現在的北檢檢察王俊麗也是以前的調查局局長我想請問一下到美方通報之前北檢或是檢察官有沒有分案調查過"},{"start":180.26,"end":201.992,"text":"這部分美方是沒有通報啦不是啦 這個沒有接到我說美方通報之前我們檢察官有沒有分案過 調查過這部分我沒有資料好 沒關係那因為剛剛那個調查局局長也有說沒有那個報警指揮我想檢察官應該也不會主動簽分出來辦部長我沒有在問你其他的問題啦我只問你第一個要釐清的"},{"start":208.015,"end":232.132,"text":"我們這麼多次的可疑通報這麼多次的分析報告我國的檢方有沒有啟動過調查我們剛剛得到的結論是調查局沒有暴行指揮第二個我得到的結論也是北檢也沒有分案調查這個是我之前查的也是這樣這個是10月15號有分案嘛不是啦 我在跟你說美方通報之前啦這個是美方通報之前"},{"start":232.659,"end":261.153,"text":"包委員必須澄清一下本案美方在執行的過程裡面不管是執行前或執行後都沒有通報在美方查辦之前好不好好那我們換個角度講在美方查破這個案子之前我們的調查局以及我國的檢方在經歷過銀行52次的可疑交易通報以及FIU26次的分析報告但是我國的調查局並沒有報請檢察官指揮"},{"start":261.793,"end":285.396,"text":"檢察官也沒有發案調查 高委員在112年就是剛剛那個黃國昌委員那個提示的那個第二案那我再問你下一個問題我再問你下一個問題我跟你講啦因為這樣的結果是什麼我們人民看到的就是這麼大的事情美國也把它辦得很誇張查扣了這麼驚人巨額的那個電子貨幣查到這麼多的錢的情況下結果"},{"start":287.177,"end":306.817,"text":"結果我們這邊竟然沒有人發現人民只看到這個點人民不會去管你講了一堆的細節人民只看到原來我國這邊養了那麼大一群人是詐騙集團洗錢集團或什麼集團的人結果美方辦得如火如荼結果我們沒有人知道"},{"start":308.478,"end":333.659,"text":"人民看到的只是這樣在美方查辦這件事之前請問一下你們有在查辦嗎如果說我們不知道的話我們沒有辦法在兩週之內就跟法院申請裁定那你們知道又沒有辦法就更糟糕因為這是一個跨國的犯罪你曾經嗆過我說作弊不該抓嗎你曾經嗆過我這句話我永遠記在心裡謝謝你的指教但是美方都知道要查"},{"start":334.64,"end":343.779,"text":"祖賢這些人在台灣設了那麼多那麼多他的買了那麼多資產結果我們這裡你說有啊我們有查我們有追蹤然後"},{"start":344.707,"end":369.793,"text":"然後呢 然後就沒有啊就是因為有掌握所以本案我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際同步同步在執行的包括美國 英國我以前常聽到的一句話新加坡 香港壞人不抓就沒有壞人啦犯罪我們不查就沒有犯罪嘛黃塵之內一片祥和委員不能是這樣說啦這個就是擁有掌握 國際同步來 我再問一下"},{"start":370.493,"end":379.918,"text":"不要跟我說國際同步啦 沒有查就沒有查人家查人家抓了那麼多人 扣了那麼多錢然後呢 你做了什麼然後都沒有報警檢察官指揮 你騙我沒幹過檢察官喔"},{"start":386.38,"end":404.037,"text":"你調查局你立了一個案子你要查你不用找檢察官報指揮嗎外面報紙不知道沒有錯啦你不要在那邊騙我你不要以為我沒當過檢察官嘛你報警指揮到外面曝光這個中間多久我剛問你檢察官有沒有方案調查你們自己跟我說沒有然後現在又說有查"},{"start":405.118,"end":428.556,"text":"這個案子有兩次的報指揮 112年跟114年調查官在發現一個案子有問題的時候就會去報警檢察官指揮並不是什麼檢察官我跟你講你不用在那邊騙國人啦你要騙國人就算了 你不用在那邊騙我啦你調查官你今天發現有問題就會報警指揮中間有一些跟監監聽搜索等等的都要由檢察官來處理"},{"start":432.404,"end":443.407,"text":"還是你們兩位離開第一線偵查太久搞不清楚第一線偵查的狀況那就算了好來我們接下來問那我想請問一下"},{"start":446.294,"end":465.112,"text":"媒體還有警政署的報告都有說太子集團是線上博弈起家的而且在台灣還有設立兩間博弈公司請問一下這段時間以來你們有沒有用賭博罪這個錢罪去查一下太子集團在台灣的金流請問一下局長以及部長"},{"start":473.105,"end":479.786,"text":"這個北檢有在偵辦中嗎這個北檢那另外那個太子級剛才那一件黃國昌委員那個是屬於"},{"start":481.229,"end":504.435,"text":"刑事局那個不是啦 我問你們嘛不然雖然那個電話局我想請教一下你們有沒有用賭博去當作一個前置犯罪去調查這個大筆的資金這樣往來有沒有調查的過程裡面除了賭博以外還有就是詐欺這個都有"},{"start":504.935,"end":523.295,"text":"都有作為我們這個前置在調查不是啦 我是在問一下太子集團過往從美方偵查這個新聞爆出來之前你們有沒有用因為這個太子集團一直有大額的資金進出嘛那你們有沒有用一個譬如說賭博或者是"},{"start":524.156,"end":545.055,"text":"逃漏稅等等的這個前置犯罪去了解一下這個錢是怎麼來來去去的這個是他交易的可疑的一個情況我們當然是依照這個可疑的前置犯罪來做這個資金的清查不是 你們有沒有查跟不是 不要兜圈子嘛你們有沒有用這個當作前置犯罪去開始去查這有沒有洗錢嘛"},{"start":547.059,"end":575.035,"text":"我覺得我的問題很簡單又很直接但是每次我聽到的答案都是一直在繞我跟你們說啦也許你會說賭博不是我調查局的業務啊但是我跟你講你們在113年的洗錢防治工作年報裡面你們就寫得很清楚盈利賭博意圖盈利提供賭博場所或聚眾賭博這些聚眾賭博罪等等的你們還曾經寫過說賭博是常見的洗錢前置犯罪所以"},{"start":576.195,"end":594.565,"text":"還有一個啊 選舉賭盤你們做在查我以前還收過 兩個人對賭而已喔然後你們就移送選舉賭盤那我看到的是什麼因為查去選舉賭盤是用選舉查查的積分所以大家瘋狂的辦結果呢 太子集團這個幾十億的這種你們就當作沒看到"},{"start":595.525,"end":619.128,"text":"就好像之前我又看到嘛我還記得國民黨在罷免連署案的時候你貴局長 局長你還故意把這個以前偽造文書不會列入選舉查查的核分您還非常好心的把這種連署的偽造文書把它提高到選舉查查的核分讓全國的調查官瘋狂的辦"},{"start":620.546,"end":640.954,"text":"那你就懂這一套玩法那你為什麼不把這個太子集團的這個賭博你就把它當作是選舉賭盤的案子來大量的合分來讓調查官辦呢所以我跟你講我覺得你們辦案子司法不要看顏色在辦案或看事情在辦案你這樣子搞國家真的不會進步"},{"start":642.915,"end":669.044,"text":"然後你也不要跟我說 你有做過26份報告或什麼我跟你講 你做了報告之後 後面沒有查那這個不就跟那個股市投顧老師一樣嗎很會講啊 電視上很會講啊跟他買的都賠錢啊那沒有效果嘛 沒有績效那我現在看到的是 你們做了很多的報告開了很多次的會議 26份的分析報告結果沒有好的績效我跟你講 那你知不知道現在詐欺是民怨第一名"},{"start":669.784,"end":698.826,"text":"如果今天是民怨第一名不要像剛剛的委員拿了一堆假數據來騙說你們做得好好好有效果現在檢察官 警察 調查官一堆被詐欺案件給淹沒搞得排擠到政察其他習案的調查我有多少錢的同事一直來跟我訴苦搞到大家不想幹法官不想幹檢察官了然後國人一直被騙你就一直不停的修正被詐金額的計算方式那看起來當然數據越來越漂亮"},{"start":700.537,"end":706.868,"text":"騙騙外行人可以啦我今天重點不是在那裡那我也跟你們講過往你們發現很多錢進進出出"},{"start":710.765,"end":733.761,"text":"那這個就算沒有你找不到其他前置犯罪但是有不明的資金進出跟他公司這個法人的營業的狀況也不符的時候至少有一個點我們可以切入調查是不是有疑似逃稅或漏稅嘛那你調查局就可以下去查有沒有疑似逃稅或漏稅或者是後面牽連的洗錢行為啊"},{"start":734.862,"end":747.727,"text":"並不是沒有辦法啟動嘛我幹夾關的話我一定會用這個理由來去了解狀況對 我完全同意委員對 所以這個可疑的疑似交易進來以後我們就是要想辦法去找出他的前置犯罪"},{"start":749.065,"end":767.776,"text":"這委員的邏輯完全跟我們是一樣不是啊 問題就是我懂 但是人民看到的就是沒有結果嘛那反而是美方那邊查到以後我們這邊才開始不是啊 沒有結果我們沒辦法在第一時間扣到這麼多的資產局長 我跟你講大家2008年的時候那時候法務部派我"},{"start":768.536,"end":792.714,"text":"派我去上一個美國政府他們開一個反洗錢的訓練我記得當時調查局的人跟我一起去出國受訓的人我覺得他們都非常傑出所以後來APG來做我們反洗錢調查的時候其實我們的績效是非常棒的那不能這幾年開始就劣化了啊十幾年而已耶不到20年耶所以我們還是亞洲第一名啊不管啦我們現在是亞洲第一名啊對 但是詐騙案也是第一名啊"},{"start":793.314,"end":815.516,"text":"沒有 我們不能這樣講喔 這個委員你有數據嗎你有數據說我們詐騙是第一名嗎不是啊 那我跟你講太極集團你怎麼樣我們掌握啦 我們查獲啦我們詐騙是民怨第一名啦不是啊 詐騙是民怨第一名我跟你講好啦 那部長如果你認為詐騙不是民怨第一名或你需要數據你就去問一下所有的人吧說委員您的數據 我們的數據我們不是第一名喔"},{"start":817.057,"end":832.764,"text":"我們洗錢方式是全球第一名對啦 部長 我一直跟你講詐騙現在是民怨的第一名啦現在狀況是這樣子那你們 你今天如果你要說增值說這數據有問題那你去問一下媒體 你去問一下做民調是不是詐騙就是我們現在民怨的第一名"},{"start":834.125,"end":856.162,"text":"我們現在那個案件整個查貨量跟整個一個財損量說已經成下降趨勢了這個我們在各個單位的報告都是成這個趨勢我想這是一個事實我們必須要做一個說明你講給人民聽啦好不好部長你講給人民聽啦你講給人民你跟人民說我們國家反詐做得好棒好不好你去講給他們聽那你今天如果覺得很棒"},{"start":857.623,"end":884,"text":"我不知道 反正你高興就好沒有 我沒有高興 我們是說我們有在努力的空間我們一直很努力 所以委內斯道現在檢警調 大家對這個炸雞太子集團這個案子 總共十家銀行的52次通報還有多次的分析 我看到的是完全沒有檢察官介入開始偵辦這個案子 這個是一個不真的事實那後續你要講一大堆有的沒有的 我想沒有任何意義啦"},{"start":885.946,"end":909.217,"text":"這個就是重點 那人民現在對打詐 我想剛剛我進來之前有記者找我去問他就拿了一個數據說 現在人民對於政府打詐的不滿意度其實剛剛跟我講的數字很高 讓我現在忘記了 數字非常高所以你們如果一直講自己很厲害 做得很好 那隨便你們但是我今天要反映給你們聽的 民意告訴我 就是做得很不好"},{"start":910.017,"end":930.564,"text":"那美方今天已經查到這樣我們還要美方那邊查到了什麼他們事情爆那麼大我們這裡才第一次的開始分案調查北檢就是這樣的新聞稿啊北檢新聞稿就是這樣寫啊我們那個當過檢察官齁那分案調不是說今天或明天就可以查到就是一定有提前的一個掌握嘛才有辦法你也知道要執行要訴訟要申請法院的一個核准"},{"start":935.366,"end":958.946,"text":"你現在講的就是在騙全國人民我沒有在騙全國人民那有沒有分他之案 你現在告訴我沒有分他之案的話 檢察官怎麼調查他有沒有辦法辦私案部長你現在在騙人你知不知道你剛剛講說有什麼樣然後才能分案那你告訴我啊 過往美方這個新聞出來之前檢方有沒有分他之案調查這個在10月15號就已經分案了"},{"start":959.386,"end":980.683,"text":"10月15號是美方事情爆出來之後我今天 我跟你講 你們繼續再跟我兜圈子吧隨便你啦 部長部長 我現在一直問你有沒有他這案北檢的新聞稿寫得非常清楚在得知訊息之後隔天就分案如果你搞不清楚你自己去問啦"},{"start":983.884,"end":997.468,"text":"為什麼我們的問題很直接那你就要你們永遠打的都很模糊或者是程序上面你們在那邊兜圈子在那邊講那些有的沒有的我真的不懂你們到底在幹什麼我在問你們問題啦我跟你講我今天在凸顯的是"},{"start":1006.548,"end":1025.063,"text":"以前這一個很嚴重的問題在台灣已經越來越嚴重了那你今天一直講APG在我們國家的審查確實我們國家表現得不錯但是APG它的審查有非常多不同的項目但是我們自己在這一塊上面沒有做好讓人民不開心"},{"start":1026.55,"end":1055.449,"text":"我跟你講啦我在駕訓班我在監理站的考試考100分不代表我上路開車就開得好嘛所以重點還是你要打出效果讓人民有感啊而不是說國際反洗錢組織APG來我們這邊經過他們的調查我們的反洗錢非常棒那你再去問問看世界上面金融管理你覺得我們管理的真的像你說的非常棒嗎我想你會講大家可能也不是那麼的相信啦好 那"},{"start":1056.755,"end":1084.934,"text":"所以我想請教一下部長那我國被害人人數你今天報告說你會積極釐清我國被害人人數那請問這部分你做了什麼這部分那個是現在編寫在偵查偵辦中那這部分偵查的要從整個偵查的一個結果去做一個釐清看看我們國內到底有多少的被害人以及扣押的財產是不是我們被害人本國被害人的一個財產"},{"start":1085.775,"end":1105.097,"text":"我想這個檢察官的一個調查的也是範圍的之內很多時候會有很多隱性的被害人這個我能夠理解啦但是我要提一個就是因為這個案子太子集團這個案子其實不只說被害人眾多不單單台灣人啦其實被害人非常的多那其實這樣子也讓我們國家顏面受損"},{"start":1106.098,"end":1132.805,"text":"真的顏面會受損原來他們的詐欺所得是在台灣這邊購置豪宅而且多年下來還活得很快樂很開心我們看到的是這個所以我們今天看到的一個客觀的事實是什麼是金融機關的通報義務有沒有做到有他做了52字的STR的報告有他有調查局的分析報告有沒有做到有你們的IFI有做了26份的報告這個也有但是檢察官的分案啟動"},{"start":1134.245,"end":1161.016,"text":"卻是在美國開始有動作之後我們這裡才開始動這個就是我們這邊的一個大問題你不要跟我講你們要掌握多少情資怎麼樣檢方沒有分他治案之前檢察官不能自己下去調查這個是我們知道的最基本所以不要說這個知道後就分案這都騙人的啦調查官知道這個案子像這種重大的金融案件調查官一定會先找檢察官報請指揮分他治案加以調查"},{"start":1161.736,"end":1183.635,"text":"這是全國一致的程序如果沒有做到這個就不要在那邊跟我講我們掌握了多少那個都是在騙國人而已都是在利用所謂的偵查不公開這幾個字之下然後我們好像我們做錯事大家都不會知道你們永遠用偵查不公開來跟我們搪塞一些事但是我看到的是"},{"start":1184.758,"end":1207.496,"text":"今天調查官如果知道這種重大案件絕對是報請檢察官指揮檢察官分他字案開始調查如果有這個他字案你可以把他字案的時間給我看案號給我看那我就知道到底有還是沒有而不是在這邊講一句說我們有掌握情資我們有開始查但是沒有分案那這個其實是騙不了我們那剛剛講那幾個如果你們認為說"},{"start":1209.366,"end":1235.748,"text":"你們都有努力做了依照現役制度的努力做那表示我國的洗錢房子還有盲點存在對不對至少這個不能否認嘛還有盲點存在嘛所以在我們相關調查人員在依據法律程序在做完之後還是有一些我們查不到或不知道或國外已經查了我們都不知道那表示我們有盲點存在所以我在這邊要求兩件事第一個部長你要讀同高檢署麻煩你們針對調查局這六年來"},{"start":1237.99,"end":1251.776,"text":"的異常通報還有這些金融情報的流程是要去進行一下行政調查看一下這些有被異常通報的這些案子有沒有值得去了解一下背後是什麼狀況這可以做到嗎 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時間的關係不宜問候首先感謝召委在今天排審的家庭暴力防治法非常重要的議題"},{"start":30.345,"end":55.779,"text":"我想時間的關係我很快帶大家回顧一下我們今天為什麼聚集在這裡處理這個議題今年七月初的時候有一位家暴的男性違反保護令的措施當街殺死了妻子跟他的妻妹這個悲劇發生了以後我們的衛福部馬上大動作說要跨部會檢討五大作為來補破網"},{"start":58.243,"end":74.86,"text":"在立法院要求衛福部的報告當中衛福部說要落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護司法院說要持續精進完善強化跨網絡的合作這些都是在今年7月發生的事情"},{"start":76.138,"end":102.65,"text":"社會發生的悲劇衛福部趕快動起來立法院也排了章案報告大家都說要檢討問題是我們看到的是什麼我們看到的是到7月底再度發生家暴殺人我上一次站在這邊質詢的時候是當再度發生的時候我關心的事情是"},{"start":104.422,"end":131.038,"text":"從衛福部到司法院到法務部大家口口聲聲所說的有精進的措施有精進的作為到底落實的情況是怎麼樣結果一檢驗不堪檢驗各機關各個階段一再漏接沒有落實應該有的作為家防中心協助身心保護令的時候沒有附上危險評估表"},{"start":132.193,"end":151.167,"text":"法官沒有收到資料也沒有請各個機關協助補件要被害人自行提供暫時保護令收案核發的原則是一個月最長不可以超過兩個月但本案是明確的超過了兩個月這個是我上次站在這邊質詢的時候我們質詢的重點"},{"start":155.56,"end":183.562,"text":"我們看到家庭暴力通報的案件一路攀升看這個數字到2024年已經接近18萬件在2016年開始的時候還不到12萬件到2024年的時候已經將近18萬件我們不禁要去思考我們到底漏接了多少人有多少人還在陰暗的角落哭泣"},{"start":185.562,"end":213.459,"text":"發生死亡被殺死被打死的案件要上媒體版面的恐怕只是在這些家暴案件當中冰山的一角對每一個被害人這個國家有無可迴避的責任因此我那時候問前任的部長前任的部長說他很關心他支持引進電子監控機制"},{"start":215.387,"end":230.496,"text":"他支持對高風險施暴者進行科技監管為了補強社會安全網他承諾要召集跨部會議他要在半年之內提出家庭暴力防治法的修正草案"},{"start":231.86,"end":250.195,"text":"但我今天看到召委排審這份案子我注意到兩件事情第一個到目前為止我們還沒有院版的修正草案我想要請教一下部長是有打算要提還是再給你們兩個月還是根本就沒打算要提"},{"start":252.097,"end":279.091,"text":"我們要在這個現在已經剛剛在報告裡面有提到我們正在收集執行的細節未來在修法通過的時候我們會來提什麼時候提我們要點時間來需要多少時間演繹上次我問部長 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謝謝主席 我想請部長我請石部長部長好賴總統在16號的時候宣布說未來我們衛福部要成立新的兒家屬但我看了一大堆新聞新聞名稱現在是非常紛亂有的前面是兒童有的前面是兒少然後有的是家庭照顧屬有的是家庭支持屬你可以在這邊跟大家講"},{"start":34.905,"end":59.526,"text":"證明一下到底未來還會叫什麼名字跟委員報告因為我們現在正式的這要涉及到那個組織法的修編所以我們還沒有正式送出到行政院的組織法的那個草案還沒有那當然目標的族群就是兒童但是兒童在醫學的定義18歲以下是兒童但是醫學是這樣"},{"start":61.107,"end":87.245,"text":"但是按照我们的儿少法他分儿童跟少年所以12岁做切割点所以名词上到底是要用我们一般的这个通念还是法律的概念这个到时候我们都会在所以你的意思是说你现在只知道他叫儿家属对对象是OK的对象很清楚就是儿童18岁到18岁医学上的定义到18岁那后面有吗几家庭"},{"start":87.685,"end":103.871,"text":"有有有家庭因為這個家庭的支持在兒童發展的過程當中家庭的支持所以你後面會叫家庭還是家庭支持家庭支持所以是兒童級家庭支持屬兒童級家庭支持屬或兒少級家庭支持屬你這個編制還沒送出去還沒有所以你被賴總統突襲了嘛"},{"start":107.313,"end":128.145,"text":"沒有這不會這個是總統要回應到這個我們的民間民團大家的這個這個倡議那以及這個整個在國家希望工程裡面希望對於這個兒童更好的這個再來我想問一下你的預算因為之前我們都"},{"start":129.065,"end":146.535,"text":"耳熟能詳的啦你說要用4年編135億來做兒童健康的照顧那這個是兒童這個部分嘛你家庭的部分你是要在另外編列預算嗎這個我們目前規劃上是把這個跟兒童相關的"},{"start":147.915,"end":171.565,"text":"從他的這個托育那些也都是啊所以是把它整合在跟兒童相關的所以包含這個從胎兒時期的這個從胎兒時期那你有包括我們未來的話不是從這個你一直講產檢對對對對對所以你要把然後到他的發展到托育就是出生之後的托育所以你的意思是說你會把部分其他屬的業務"},{"start":175.187,"end":188.074,"text":"對 會調整 會把現在本來在社家署社會及家庭署裡面有關於兒童服務役托育的部分我們會把它移到這個兒家署 托育 對另外也會把生產 不是生產就是這個兒童的發展"},{"start":196.859,"end":216.397,"text":"早期疗愈那一块早疗的部分也会移进来那你的胚胎是什么意思因为我看到胚胎我会联想到孕产所以孕产的那一块要不要移动再进来我们会再讨论这个就是它从胚胎开始的所以那个我们会一并去"},{"start":217.518,"end":234.573,"text":"去討論到底有沒有要移進來因為會涉及到我們好多個現行的單位的他的業務的移動那你為什麼要從胚胎開始講你為什麼不從出生開始講胚胎就是生命的開始我們現在"},{"start":237.139,"end":254.308,"text":"希望保護的就是應該照顧的是從胚胎的時候就開始有一些政策因為這一個單位會包含到這個兒童的這個健康政策的研習所以我才問你有沒有包括孕產婦啊因為胚胎在孕產婦的身體裡面啊"},{"start":255.383,"end":284.511,"text":"他可能还包含一些筛检的有一些筛检的政策你是说在产检的时候的筛检对对对产检有一些筛检你要把它移到儿家族这里来他是不一定我们是有一个叫做政策就是儿童的健康政策的规划单位那但是执行的时候会看到他的业务的整合性你的筛检是不是出生以后的筛检你应该不是只产检政策规划啦就是整个健康政策的规划要在这里面"},{"start":285.233,"end":307.926,"text":"好 雖然聽的不是很理解但是等到你全部都公佈之後還有第二個問題就是說以往比如說我自己去考察一個機構一個學校或是一個托嬰 一個托育它有可能附屬在學校下面有可能附屬在某一個機關下面那長久大家就會覺得很奇怪你這個家 這個屬叫兒家屬 兒童照顧"},{"start":311.468,"end":339.705,"text":"可是一般家長有時候都會覺得奇怪為什麼托育0到2歲是衛福部管2到6歲就變教育部負責那比如說發生了一個暴力事件或者是不當對待我們還要去區分它發生的場域在哪裡那再去找主責的機構其實這個就是長久以來的問題我不知道把兒家屬合併然後升級成一個三級的機構是不是可以解決以前很多跨部會的問題"},{"start":341.554,"end":359.982,"text":"我想儿童的照顾本来或者是儿童的健康他的权益他涉及到跨部会他不会是只有通通在卫福部里头所以他确实是会涉及到跨部会所以你的意思是说但是我们把他的这个卫福部的窗口"},{"start":361.363,"end":376.44,"text":"先統一在兒家署裡面然後再透過這個兒家署做跨部會之間的協調那你的編制大概會有多少人還要再細算現在目前在做業務調整之後就會細算你覺得至少你需要多少人"},{"start":379.916,"end":407.054,"text":"這個在數的規模上有一定的組跟人數的這個規模一定會有那外界有一個誤解現在世界各國尤其是面臨少子化國安危機的國家他們都紛紛成立類似你這樣子名稱的單位不管是哪一個級別但是大部分級別都比我們高所以很多人誤會了覺得你這個是跟少子女化有相關的但是你是其實就是照顧兒童"},{"start":408.055,"end":427.655,"text":"但你看我們現在的出生率是越來越慘今年可能11萬嘛那你的服務案量是會越來越少那難道你不會覺得擔心嗎你現在開了一個新的編制可是你未來服務的人是越來越少而你沒有一起加入成立做這個少子女化的相關政策"},{"start":429.396,"end":449.062,"text":"在少子女化這個政策的這個應對方案的部分另外在行政院層級他也有這個相對應的計畫的行動計畫在推動那個就是很多跨部會的那我們這個在衛福部裡面主要是主責在兒童已經出生之後"},{"start":450.022,"end":464.171,"text":"好 我知道沒關係 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謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有經濟部劉部長賴建興 賴次長賴次長"},{"start":15.253,"end":40.867,"text":"好謝謝 劉部長還有賴次長早我們今天在審花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別預算我想先請賴次長先就回答一下因為我今天要跟您討論的就是防災型的微電網我想先請教一個問題次長丹納斯颱風我們那時候停電停了幾天你還記得嗎"},{"start":43.622,"end":67.749,"text":"停電事實上停了相當長的時間相當長的時間嘛主要是有3500根電桿的導斷然後造成附電比較困難是所以丹納斯台南的這個部分當時讓大家覺得最困難的地方就是電沒有電這件事情造成的災害其實大家非常的感受甚深好來那我馬太安溪堰澀湖這次的災害我們停電停了多久"},{"start":69.432,"end":90.158,"text":"我們當天晚上就復電當天晚上就復電進九成了 對不對所以兩個災害其實它所影響的部分完全不一樣那在電力的部分也完全的不一樣我不知道是不是基於這樣的事實狀態所以我跟您請教的其實是在這一次的重建特別預算當中我來跟 我用馬太安"},{"start":94.719,"end":117.249,"text":"西義艷澀湖這次的災後重建特別預算就是我們今天要處理的這個部分和丹納斯颱風的這個災後復原重建特別預算兩相對照之下市長你應該可以看得到我現在的資料嘛在丹納斯的時候經濟部主管編了187億辦理了非常多的事項其中有一項是建制小型防災微電網及移動式電網貨櫃等7億7億多"},{"start":121.491,"end":123.353,"text":"這是建置新的微電網我的理解沒有錯誤吧正確好來那為什麼花蓮馬太安這次為什麼不用你是因為他沒有電力受損的這個狀態所以就不編了嗎"},{"start":136.747,"end":156.512,"text":"不是的 首先第一個這次馬太安溪對於電網的一個問題主要是因為配電所跟人手拱埋的一個狀況還有附掛在馬太安溪橋上面的這個電線的毀壞所以我們現在編了2.6億元是希望改善這個但是委員所"},{"start":156.832,"end":182.38,"text":"我有看到你這邊有確實有2億多這個等於是在有點修復的概念嘛那我現在跟你討論的是上一次在丹納斯的時候我們有一個7億是建制小型防災的微電網我的認為我的理解是這個是建制新的微電網那在花蓮的馬太安溪的這次事件的時候我們只有修復的部分那我想請問的就是差別是什麼啦齁那其實呢市長"},{"start":183.88,"end":200.731,"text":"我的理解到目前為止沒有錯誤嘛對不對上面那個有丹納斯的時候有修復有建置新的然後馬太安的這個部分是只有修復舊的目前看起來是這樣是 我分兩個層面跟委員說明這丹納斯跟馬太安的一個不同"},{"start":201.371,"end":215.807,"text":"我們光復鄉或是北邊的鳳林鄉比較偏近市區至於說丹納斯的部分我們對於小型的這些路維電網是在山區或是偏遠地區但是第二個部分跟委員說明"},{"start":216.348,"end":236.079,"text":"我們認為整個加強供電的這個韌性的部分微電網的建置在全國是有必要的除了丹納斯原來編編的這個八億元之外我們現在也請能源署針對於全國的這個微電網再去掩體一個整合性的計劃希望奉行"},{"start":236.479,"end":245.982,"text":"所以你已經請能源署在做這件事情的研討有包括建制的預算了嗎這個就是我等一下想問你的問題我想請這個內政部長劉部長您先回答一下我這另外再給你看一張圖剛剛賴市長這邊講到了我就是想要問的問題其實對於丹納斯有建制小型微電網"},{"start":256.465,"end":273.151,"text":"和馬太安這個部分馬太安特別條例沒有建制我其實還可以理解為什麼因為是災後重建的條例所以我們等於是在救災丹納斯的時候連電的發電都沒有了所以在這個部分我們要連建制的部分下去"},{"start":274.191,"end":288.681,"text":"馬太安的部分因為他的店就好好的嘛他沒有毀壞的狀態所以我們在這個部分沒有配置建置小微電網我白話文的理解是這樣的話那我可以接受這樣的狀況可是兩者的災害狀況讓我們認識到其實還是有必要要建置防災型的微電網啊你看在像我新北喔烏來我們在2015年的時候也是經過重大的風災可是在那個之後德拉南因為建置了防災型的微電網"},{"start":303.991,"end":316.195,"text":"所以後來再也沒有缺過電了好 那內政部的資料國土署的內政部資料很清楚的可以看到我們現在有114年議城孤島地區需要設置太陽光電及小水力發電的盤整情形一共有184處議城孤島"},{"start":324.898,"end":340.081,"text":"那麼在地方政府認為有需要的部分如果以光電48處水力發電有4處那有這個52處看起來連地方政府也認為有需要的那我剛剛的問題其實會不會跟次長剛剛回答其實有點接近啦"},{"start":340.461,"end":357.394,"text":"我的問題就是那在重建的特別預算沒有編列那未來不管是內政部的防災計畫也好或者是經濟部你要怎麼配置也好有沒有任何一個單位用哪一項的預算幫這個國家比較需要的部分建置微電網"},{"start":358.915,"end":381.782,"text":"這就是我的問題啊因為這是你的資料所以我特別請部長上台好 謝謝委員的關心我想非常的重要就是說我們目前跟經濟部已經在盤點也跟地方政府有做這方面的評估所以你們會合作評估出來就是有需求而且現在的地形地物的條件之上可以做的我們會先做但是有些地形地物上面或者是說整個的社區上面要配合比較慢的狀況之下站在我們消防署是一個防災的角度我們先規劃 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謝謝主席我先請我們法務部部長好 請部長好 部長好部長今天我們主要是著重在打詐那剛才也講了現在這個民眾對詐騙深惡痛絕也是政府現在民調滿意度最低的一個項目但是我必須要講就是說"},{"start":34.415,"end":56.175,"text":"我們為了打詐案件很多但是司法有沒有怠惰呢有的我現在就來直接跟部長請教這件事情我們在整個打詐期這幾年來包含我們成立了國家打詐隊那麼努力在打詐但是有一個案子非常非常特殊"},{"start":57.196,"end":79.078,"text":"这个特殊是什么呢它其实是类似当年的IMBIMB一样非法吸金非法吸金那这个叫做天逸集团的董事长温丰泰他以所谓的基金队长为名对外吸金而且他的吸金说你保证回本"},{"start":80.253,"end":105.23,"text":"而且回收率就是你的報酬率高達6%到12%這種一看就知道典型的非法襲擊的案例那我們剪掉有沒有辦呢有的在2021年的9月當時你們也是大規模的去辦去偵辦然後裡面包含去約談去搜索"},{"start":106.05,"end":131.128,"text":"然后这个董事长当年是以200万元交保然后他另外一家叫做天营投资的负责人叫做王志摩他100万元交保当然当时还有一些业务员有60万交保的20万交保的这样一个大规模轰轰动动10亿的一个金融非法吸金涉及诈骗的案子"},{"start":132.984,"end":152.331,"text":"部長我請教這樣的案子通常通常應該要多久應該會有比較具體的結果不管你是繼續的約談他繼續的開庭或者起訴他或者說還他清白其實你沒有詐騙你沒有非法襲擊通常這案子應該要多久"},{"start":155.351,"end":165.17,"text":"這個謝謝委員關心那的確這個是有吸金這個有涉及到這些不法的那這個金額也看起來也蠻多的"},{"start":165.99,"end":182.78,"text":"那這個北檢剛才委員有提到說11年9月份那時候有做一些的有處理啦有處理搜索等等的這些那現在的確是委員講這個是案件還在偵查中還在偵查中通常所以我要問部長像這種大型的案件大型案件如果他擺了四年沒有再開任何一次庭"},{"start":194.247,"end":200.22,"text":"也沒有在傳喚任何一個人沒有在任何的偵辦的動作合理不合理部長合理嗎"},{"start":204.116,"end":228.752,"text":"這個案件的染疫程度以及收整的一個個案不同據我這邊的資料事實上在去年在12月也有開過庭這部分我想我要尊重檢察官的一個偵查的計畫我想這部分如果當事人如果說被害人這部分對被害人來說他一定認為這個人是不是有"},{"start":232.914,"end":246.679,"text":"守候的什麼政商關係可以讓檢調在一次大規模的偵辦然後交保之後最後無消無息我們來看因為這家公司繼續在做營運來 下一頁"},{"start":249.58,"end":269.819,"text":"他繼續在做營運而且神通廣大那麼他也跟柬埔寨的商務部也有正式的簽約然後另外他又去介入一家上市公司的經營權的紛爭這家公司也後來這個經營權紛爭也涉嫌到吸金的問題我要講的是"},{"start":272.501,"end":301.741,"text":"我們一個重大的案件然後被害人這麼多當然人家會盯住說司法檢調在偵辦的之後好一年過去了兩年過去了三年過去了你說去年12月那也是三年之後啦一次開庭對不對那所以我想請問一下這樣子的案子那你如何讓被害人對司法有信心請問一下部長像這個案子"},{"start":303.842,"end":313.892,"text":"10億然後甄辦都幾百萬元交保然後就擺在那裡如果你是被害人或者你是被害人家屬你做何感想"},{"start":314.851,"end":334.811,"text":"我想這不是案件就擺在那裡啦這個檢察官依照這個法定程序來蒐集證據那還是有持續的一個進行那這部分因為這是個案我也沒辦法去做一個干涉指導我今天在講的當然這個是一個非法吸金詐騙的個案"},{"start":336.312,"end":348.896,"text":"但是這也是通案就如同剛才在講的太子集團那是我們偵辦的很晚是美國把一些相關資料給我們這個是我們已經有在偵辦然後擺在那邊聞風不動"},{"start":352.097,"end":367.779,"text":"我覺得這就是會讓外界認為司法怠惰對於這些連大型的非法欺侵詐騙你們都可以擺4年之久所以拜託部長這樣子害被害人血本無歸啊"},{"start":368.68,"end":395.647,"text":"你本來就要加強偵辦否則這些人說實在這些人200他們現在到處在做生意有沒有出徑對不對照樣還可以去介入上市公司的經營權之爭我覺得這個我們是不是讓這些這種涉嫌詐騙涉嫌非法吸金的人對他們太好了所以剛才羅思強委員問這個事情就是那個院長詐騙當時就是我總諮詢問他"},{"start":398.268,"end":413.056,"text":"我問他就是那個太子集團你講那30萬不是我問他是那個太子集團的特助那個城市的特助15萬交保然後呢交保之後臉上出現燦笑開心的不得了所以我就問院長這種畫面你給國人什麼樣的訊號"},{"start":415.877,"end":443.993,"text":"所以院長說他也不能夠接受所以像這樣的案子是大家不能接受的事情拜託部長好不好就一定該辦的就辦我說如果他沒有非法進行如果說他沒有涉嫌什麼相關的法律責任你也趕快懷人家清白是不是 也沒有你就把案子擺在那裡這個都不是我們在做這些司法案件應該有的態度另外部長請教你一件事情"},{"start":445.174,"end":466.637,"text":"這兩天我認為這個案子非常嚴重台積電又出現涉嫌就是可能又被竊他的機密這裡面是他一個副總高階的副總叫做羅維仁他退休之後他就跳槽英特爾因為部長知道這個案子"},{"start":467.569,"end":482.666,"text":"這個案件媒體有報 那高檢署也分案偵辦了你講的是羅維仁嗎對 這一間 就是這一間你們是主動偵辦 還是說台積電已經跟你們這一間是主動分案的主動分案 這正確我為什麼今天要質詢"},{"start":483.527,"end":512.767,"text":"因為他之前呢是一個日商的東基威力集團這個也是日本的半導體國家隊友也來是涉嫌竊取台積電的這個商這個他的技術的機密那台積電呢是提告跟我們的高檢署提告然後所以現在在偵辦中那這個羅維仁這是按照媒體報導台積電還沒有確定說要不要提告但是我認為就應該去主動偵辦他那用什麼用什麼法去偵辦他"},{"start":515.725,"end":544.573,"text":"這個營業秘密法用營業秘密法會不會用國安法還有那個國安法那個應該是第三條第八條所以現在部長是確定這個羅為仁涉嫌竊取台積電的機密案我們高檢署主動分案調查主動分案調查以什麼涉嫌那個國安法國安法以及營業秘密法"},{"start":544.813,"end":560.598,"text":"一頁秘密法就是主動翻案調查這是正確的我覺得政府要拿出態度來因為剛剛有媒體報導說他因為是美國籍啊還不能用國安法辦他我說怎麼會有這樣的事情那個是任何人 國安法的那個是任何人"},{"start":561.932,"end":574.796,"text":"對 所以這個部分為什麼我今天要質詢這個我是這樣子我就肯定了好 那時間暫停一下我請一下我們今天有經濟部經濟部是 對不起經濟部商業發展署還有銀行局局長跟內政部警政署署長好 請兩位三位最小的官員請上台 謝謝"},{"start":592.729,"end":612.783,"text":"這個之前我也在這邊請教法務部就是我們太子集團這個案子事實上它是涉及各部會那當時你們在檢方在開內部檢討會議的時候有人直接點名說這個案子的罪魁禍首是誰呢是經濟部就是經濟部的商業發展署"},{"start":615.985,"end":636.434,"text":"那是什麼呢就是針對這些空殼公司啊這些空殼公司大量的交易買豪車買豪宅但是我們渾然不覺所以當時檢方點名這件事的罪魁禍首是經濟部來那我想請問一下我們副署長您能夠接受嗎"},{"start":637.99,"end":653.486,"text":"跟委員報告我們公司的設立登記跟變更登記都有法定的程序我們依公司法跟公司登記辦法所以這件事情你們有沒有施指針對這個公科公司又買豪車又買豪宅然後進行洗錢"},{"start":654.854,"end":670.905,"text":"公司的設立那個資金我們會透過會計視察而簽證所以那個設立的資金我們會有法定程序處理那我要請教一下那麼當時法務部副部長在這邊他說他們會透過行政院要讓經濟部針對空殼公司進行清查因為以這個案例來說這個案例他透過設立"},{"start":684.594,"end":703.87,"text":"空殼公司然後去買車去買豪車豪宅當然機管會是說銀行局說他們有通報銀行針對這些交易他們有通報針對空殼公司要不要做清查公司的營業如果有"},{"start":705.836,"end":733.059,"text":"六個月沒有正常的營業那個稅務機關會有這個會營業的事實那我們會有法定程序會進行這個相關的副署長你今天來這個專案報告我覺得你完全沒有準備我剛才為什麼講為什麼檢方直接點名經濟部是罪魁禍首就是針對這些空殼公司沒有做任何的管理"},{"start":733.911,"end":760.721,"text":"所以我也支持我們針對空殼公司你沒有營運你也沒有營運資本額也沒多少那開個空殼公司在這邊就是大肆的去買各項的財產當然你說這邊他是買豪車豪宅這個還能夠在銀行裡面去追蹤他如果去買什麼虛擬貨幣買吳京明的債券吳京明債券他也有資金的流動你根本連追都不能追所以"},{"start":763.362,"end":773.362,"text":"针对我们这些空壳公司你们真的应该做一些清查你可以定嘛你可以定一个标准什么样的标准之上你要做清查"},{"start":774.571,"end":793.545,"text":"这边所谓空壳公司跟刚刚那个无营业其实两个概念是不同所以无营业就是说他六个月没有经营的情况那这种情况我们有法定程序就是透过这个命令解散跟撤销你讲半天我跟你讲那至于说在正常营业当中因为他在税务"},{"start":794.566,"end":812.121,"text":"的程序也都有申報營業稅有這個正常的往來那請問這家空殼公司太子集團有什麼正常營業嗎所以所謂的空殼公司它有正常營業嗎跟無營業公司兩個是不同的概念你怎麼 你在講半天我就說你完全沒有準備而來你們經營部顯然這件事情不干你們的事的"},{"start":813.533,"end":816.895,"text":"好像一副不幹你們的事 你知道這個世界變成什麼樣嗎我們變成那種海外的那種洗錢天堂了 你知道嗎台灣有避稅天堂 海外有洗錢天堂 台灣現在變成洗錢天堂設立一家空額公司 然後在這邊把這些錢拿來去買車買豪宅我們渾然不覺 然後發生事情的時候你在這邊跟我爭議什麼有沒有營業"},{"start":838.97,"end":861.907,"text":"你們到底有沒有進入狀況啊公司在設立的過程當中會有開一個籌備戶頭那設立完以後他會轉為這個時間關係啊我真的拜託法務部把這些所有相關的內政我想那個署長不會那麼白目啦真的署長人家還有點名的是內政部"},{"start":862.768,"end":888.047,"text":"就是呢這個層次已經來十年來已經來很多次還用多國護照一直來一直來一直來所以也點名了也點名了就說這個為什麼內政部這當然不是只有你們還包含海關為什麼都渾然不覺所以在這個部分我們有沒有辦法去做一些做一些防堵我就以太子集團這個案例"},{"start":890.669,"end":910.822,"text":"請檢調單位針對其他各部會他應該有漏洞要把他防堵出來我今天雖然找金融局但是我就現在來看你們確實有通報所以我覺得金融局的部分銀行的部分目前是OK的他有在守門但是他說檢調也沒有什麼他說通報以後檢調你們也沒有在積極的作為"},{"start":915.865,"end":922.562,"text":"所以你們要把太子集團這個案例我們所有相關的有這些漏洞要捕破網"},{"start":924.671,"end":946.412,"text":"這個案子很丟臉啊很丟臉我現在是時間關係我沒有把調查局長叫上來我那時候說四月份人家聯合國已經有報告說台灣涉及東南亞的洗錢有沒有結果你們調查局長講什麼說這個好像有言過其實啊就不是這樣子啊不是這樣子今天跑出來一個太子集團"},{"start":947.574,"end":968.161,"text":"我一直說我們要洗刷這種國際洗錢中心洗錢天堂的惡名可以不可以 可以可以 署長我覺得他署長比較進入狀況而且你覺得這個是你的職責你經濟部真的回去好好這個空殼公司是你們經濟部的事情"},{"start":970.769,"end":994.444,"text":"部長最後針對太子集團所有相關部會我覺得你們也不要當爛好人也不要護短你們檢調有什麼疏失你們就直接提出來其他單位有什麼疏失你們就要提出來這個案子用太子集團的案子來做檢討不要明年人家什麼聯合國報告再出來說我們幫東南亞去洗錢"},{"start":996.966,"end":1024.572,"text":"你知道現在全世界都在跟柬埔寨宣戰全世界 美國都說我要派員到柬埔寨去查然後李在明說什麼李在明說你們今天敢動我韓國人我讓你們家破人亡人家總統有這種破例所以你柬埔寨再敢動我韓國人我就讓你們家破人亡我們在那邊我們就在機場舉牌子說大家不要去柬埔寨 小心"},{"start":1026.171,"end":1032.476,"text":"這種破例完全不一樣啊所以我覺得要宣戰這種宣戰是要跟國際的詐騙集團宣戰"},{"start":1035.799,"end":1056.039,"text":"好不好 惡名昭彰還對他們有什麼客氣的啦不會啦 謝謝委員的指教我想我們打架國會都是對而宣戰那委員剛才關心的就是說我們檢調再辦案把一些我們為什麼會有這樣的情形的發生我們會看檢討把它補漏這部分我們會回饋給各個行政機關各個權管單位來做一個不用當讓好了"},{"start":1056.9,"end":1061.685,"text":"而且也不能護膽 也不能護膽誰沒有進入狀況 誰沒有在防堵就讓他們要負起責任這部分我們有收集就是會來防堵這個精進策進作為這部分我們有在做OK 好 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有沒有沒有啊但是今天我要說為什麼今天會有太子集團的這個專案報告在"},{"start":184.266,"end":202.359,"text":"人民能夠相信嗎 這個我後面會一一來詢問人民看到政府的做法 難道不擔心嗎我們也是基於期許希望今天我們的政府當然做得更好一關一個民怨第一名 人家TVBS民調做出來就92%認為嚴重啊只有4%的人認為不嚴重啊"},{"start":206.062,"end":230.011,"text":"難道不值得政府警惕嗎政府在這一方面一直是列為施政的重點非常好謝謝局長是謝謝委員那我想請教局長一件事你有聽過最近有個案子有一位清潔隊員因為同情拾荒老婦他把回收站台內一個堪用殘值只剩32元的電鍋轉送給他"},{"start":232.418,"end":259.234,"text":"你知道檢方最後是以貪污自罪條例起訴你有聽過這個案件嗎有 我有聽過有沒有他說黃姓清潔隊員康他仁之凱不該助長易賊廖天丁的錯誤概念來 部長你覺得32元的電鍋以貪污自罪條例起訴然後檢察官說他康他仁之凱不該助長易賊廖天丁的錯誤概念"},{"start":260.992,"end":280.836,"text":"這個的確是情形法狀我講一個清潔隊員的那個感想你來評論一下那這部分我們也你據那個貪污之類條例的一個修正草案很好很好你亡羊補牢很好這個我們一直在做這樣的一個提討來我跟部長說部長你要聽我講嘛部長請問現在我要跟你換位子嗎"},{"start":285.512,"end":313.117,"text":"你是質詢我還是我質詢你啊我要到我的答案了嘛你可不可以聽我質詢好不好 質詢時間有限我也不想耽擱後面的人質詢啊我還算客氣吧 部長謝謝你喔那位清潔隊員感慨啊他說很後悔他不敢倒好人把這32元的電鍋送給一個處境堪憐的一個拾荒牢婦他很後悔可是我跟你講"},{"start":314.406,"end":326.929,"text":"現在很多人看到啊太子集團囂張九年啊你不要說後悔當好人可能很多人要後悔沒去加入太子集團啊難道這個不是個警訊嗎那我就要再問了真的叫捐鍋者豬啊詐騙者猴啊捐一個電鍋給老婦貪污啊"},{"start":347.981,"end":372.574,"text":"詐騙45億台灣啦 全台 全球全球多少 1500億美元1500億 對不對這樣的炸雞集團啊在台灣45億的不法資產爽九年啊然後現在剛剛所有的資訊我聽到最後都覺得今天我們的"},{"start":373.436,"end":396.594,"text":"法務部 調查局 好棒棒啊 都做得很好啊沒有任何可以檢討要反省的地方啊我聽起來是這樣啊在台灣爽九年啊 不是嗎來 我想請教 再下一個問題我想請教我請教部長今天我們看到 我們請局長好了 來 局長剛剛我看資訊很多重點嘛"},{"start":403.001,"end":422.932,"text":"你們說你們2019年就接獲銀行的申報的金融資料然後2021年就已經接獲相關情資展開調查那我想請教一直到今天美國方面"},{"start":424.721,"end":452.247,"text":"這個美國的法院10月8號起訴美國財政部10月14號對陳志等人實施制裁然後接下來我們看到檢方動起來了分工辦案扣押不動產然後搜索集團幹部具體主要幹部通知證人到案全面擴大偵辦我想請問一下局長跟部長"},{"start":454.446,"end":478.793,"text":"這些包括所謂的偵辦的作為扣押的作為搜索的作為這些直接打擊所謂的詐欺銷唆的作為請問為什麼不是在今天美方10月8號起訴之前你剛都講從2019年到現在6年了吧這6年奇怪了有搜索嗎沒有嗎來 部長"},{"start":484.517,"end":512.529,"text":"有對太子集團展開搜索嗎有沒有報委員我可不可以回答可以啊請你這個本案是一個大型的跨國的一個犯罪的組織我知道啦那我們接到這個異常的這個通報的時候其實都是每一筆的交易我們如何從這每一筆的交易勾勒出整個集團的架構跟成員我們倒個袋倒個袋我只問你一個yes no嘛有針對太子集團開始搜索嗎"},{"start":513.919,"end":534.645,"text":"有扣押資產嗎就本案在11月4號的時候之前沒有嘛我沒說錯嘛但是如果委員你有注意到外媒的報導這個其實是跟其他國家在國際間同步的一個行動我告訴你我辛苦你啦我都說辛苦你了對你也是很禮遇啊對不對辛苦你啊辛苦9年啊"},{"start":536.536,"end":555.81,"text":"至少從你知道的開始六年吧如果你跟我講三個月你沒動作你一年沒動作我都解釋得通啊來台灣九年你知道有六年你開始關切調查有四年了結果到最後是美國動手我們這邊還開始又搜索又扣押又傳證人"},{"start":558.066,"end":583.442,"text":"那我就 你說說今天國人沒有在質疑這件事情國人有些質疑 難道不是應該的嗎跟委員報告其實很多的這個國際的這個情資我們是不方便啦但是如果委員你注意那個外媒的報導你就可以知道說這個其實在同一個時間是國際之間同步的執行包括美國 英國 新加坡 香港都是在這個時間點同步執行大點時間給部長啦部長我的結論很簡單啦"},{"start":588.615,"end":600.213,"text":"你們一直在想這安靜你們多努力多努力多努力我剛剛講的搜索扣押傳證人通通都沒做嘛有嗎在美國動手之前有做嗎就沒有嘛"},{"start":601.795,"end":625.865,"text":"三個月半年一年兩年你沒做我沒意見啦就像我任農局長講的嘛大案件嘛對不對你要很多的東西要做要查要做嘛這個要長期的一個說證嘛左九年右九年九年過了再九年是這個概念嗎改改左三年右三年過了三年再三年剛好加起來九年啦"},{"start":626.82,"end":655.439,"text":"委員這個是辦人的一個專業部長你人生有多少九年可以做你有多少九年的部長可以做這個長期的修正部件這個長期要釐清92%的人認為詐騙嚴重請永遠記在心裡面這種的才叫進行來來來我請署長我請署長委員好45億啊沒錯吧是45億應該是很大的金流吧對不對非常大的金流"},{"start":656.499,"end":680.732,"text":"哇 神不知鬼不覺啊九年在那邊跑來跑去沒事啊然後現在我們部長跟署長我們局長跟部長兩個都覺得自己很努力啊這努力能跟國人交代嗎這才重點吧來 請問我們的金融我們的金管會的局長童局長45億的金流不算小吧對啊"},{"start":685.231,"end":710.154,"text":"你們有通報吧 對不對對啊奇怪我不懂耶人家天靈靈地靈靈我們這天不靈地不靈啦政府也不靈啦是這個回事嗎我在這邊沒有用很苛刻的方式來要求部長跟局長喔真的沒有喔可是我就講一件事情我還是那句話嘛今天金管會通報你一年兩年"},{"start":712.148,"end":730.884,"text":"你無知無覺 我可以講說案件太大對不對 抽絲剝繭詳細謹慎不是耶 照調查局局長說就六年了嘛你通報他們六年了嘛 對不對 沒錯吧他們局的底報告是這樣寫的 六年啊啊他就說來九年啦所以這才我跟哥哥講 為什麼講台灣現在多何其荒謬啊捐鍋者諸"},{"start":742.622,"end":770.317,"text":"詐欺者喉捐個32元電鍋好心捐電鍋貪污起訴然後呢詐欺集團有八成人抓到是被交保3萬到100萬特助15萬交保搞得今天院長還震怒咧院長震怒啊打擊詐欺人員士氣啊只要罵錯人了"},{"start":773.666,"end":775.828,"text":"他罵法院來來我們來請廳長來我再重複一遍剛其實有問過了是院長罵法院罵對了嗎來"},{"start":785.799,"end":810.709,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告一下 這個在上個禮拜台北地院已經發了新聞稿澄清沒關係嘛 我不知道新聞稿你幫我講嘛 內容重點是什麼就罵錯了嘛 沒錯吧對嘛 檢察官訓後交保跟法院沒關係跟法院沒關係 不是法院裁的沒錯吧 就罵錯人嘛來來來 部長"},{"start":813.542,"end":832.141,"text":"這個院長應該是院長的意思是指太子集團的生押的核心幹部有一位交保是交保在一個圖信的一個被告交保30萬那這部分檢方是認為是不符所以這邊有看到所以這部分我們核心幹部就要收押"},{"start":832.822,"end":839.904,"text":"聽長請上來 聽長請上來部長那麼盡責 我也覺得委屈他啦我請聽長上來嘛我請聽長上來啦 謝謝部長我請聽長上來啦沒有 部長你很盡責啦 總統太太喜歡你啦沒問題的啦是不是罵錯了 請問對不對 聽長也很無奈啊講那麼多"},{"start":864.228,"end":881.736,"text":"他沒罵錯 搞到我們法院還要發聲明欸我不要再跟你吵這件事情 我只是覺得你很盡責你討厭聽洗地兩個字我知道 但我說你很盡責怎麼沒錯吧這不是洗地 這是回應那個委員對的我就說你討厭聽到洗地兩個字 我沒有講洗地嘛這是一個誠信事實啊 這不是什麼洗地部長你不盡責 你要我這樣講嗎我現在很盡責啊"},{"start":887.498,"end":911.23,"text":"我誇你也不行啊別人為罵你洗地你翻臉我誇你都不行啊 奇怪了 我不懂啊你就很盡責嘛 廳長旁邊都說罵錯了你這邊盡責的幫忙辯護不是洗地啦 再強調不叫洗地啦叫做盡責辯護啦最後有一件事情我要跟部長來討論一下最後一件事"},{"start":913.803,"end":932.534,"text":"有個80歲的劉老太太照顧癱瘓的兒子50年還要照顧她比她自己大10歲的丈夫因為她確診 心力交瘁她悶死了她兒子那地方法院法官建請總統依赦免法來對被告特赦各界也支持特赦"},{"start":933.988,"end":963.087,"text":"那我看我們的總統府是強調說因為這是我叫本會我們的委員會針對陳水扁特赦問題當時法務部就說尚未判決確定的案件沒有赦免法第三條特赦適用的餘地對不對當時這麼講沒錯這個特赦是要判決確定的才有特赦的所以是你的見解那是你的見解所以總統府說將司法程序完成後再回後續"},{"start":964.368,"end":987.265,"text":"但坦白講我也有看到不同的法律見解有人是回到赦免法第三條的條文的規定受罪行之宣告的人經特赦者免除其刑之執行其情節特殊者得以罪行之宣告為無效他沒有講確定兩個字但沒有關係我不是要在這邊跟你爭執法律意見我要講的是另外一件事情"},{"start":990.083,"end":1015.688,"text":"我的主張是有新特色就特色啦不要讓他再來回奔波反應但如果法務部還是認為說要確定那現在檢方已經不對這本案上訴了嘛對不對那個檢方沒有上訴這是那個被告一方上訴可是我跟你講部長你江心比心從被告角度來講他要不要上訴他也很為難啊不是嗎今天如果他撤回上訴全案定義就符合你的要件了嘛"},{"start":1016.252,"end":1032.692,"text":"對不對 定宴以後總統就可以來行使特赦的餘地嘛可以擔心他不上訴 定宴以後他也就要去服刑啊正式就沒有轉 萬一沒有特赦就要服刑那為什麼讓他來去賭好 沒關係 我這樣講我想請教部長 能幫一個忙啦"},{"start":1033.633,"end":1054.834,"text":"就是按照你的 我講的我的叫廣義的法律見解你的叫狹義法律見解 我不講對錯按照你的法律見解一定要確定之後部長能不能告訴我如果確定之後 你作為我們法律的守門人能不能請我們總統對這個個案慎重考慮 不是要求啦 慎重考慮行使特色啦照你說的確定之後啦"},{"start":1056.3,"end":1067.303,"text":"你覺得他有沒有可憐 請問這部分其實跟委員報告其實這個案件在發生之初是我在當北捷檢察長的時候那時候國關案件跟這件會議認為國務院法官的案件那時候轉嫌會議那個嫌疑會議我就講說我們檢察法會悲天憫之心所以這件我們才建議"},{"start":1077.386,"end":1095.267,"text":"國官專主的檢察 建立法官是不是改成通常程序不要再受到國官的那個比較程序的一些的這些冗長這一段我肯定你啦好不好那這邊委員你關心的我想這部分當然是總統固有職權那我想總統已經知道了所以總統我發新聞稿"},{"start":1097.049,"end":1126.109,"text":"說要程序做完他沒有答應要特赦 只是說程序結束大家都會很關心這件事我不勉強你啦 部長就是拜託啦你不用公開你作為政府法律守門人作為幕僚的話你私下給他建議這件事我們是覺得真的很可憐所以長照杯哥這部分的我們是一直在做這邊的一個檢視檢討在這邊部長你贏給大家一個promise你至少會把這個民情反映總統"},{"start":1126.849,"end":1127.831,"text":"好不好 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謝謝邢工部長我們再請經濟部工部長"},{"start":15.643,"end":43.137,"text":"好 部長我先請教一下 上次我有問過就是普發現金的一萬 詐騙也非常多現在已經在普發現金當中了那當時有講到要三天內跟整個這些平台業者不管是Meta或者是臉書溝通後來有溝通嗎 有成效嗎我要問一下我的同事 看看部長要不要回覆一下三個禮拜才質詢過而已現在普發現金是最熱門的一個事件那大家都在領現金"},{"start":44.124,"end":67.707,"text":"那當時的詐騙的情況我們要求要做處理是有跟抒發部做了一些溝通但是詳細情況是不是允許我會跟那部長這邊有沒有跟部長有沒有跟臉書跟meta這邊做溝通基本上大部分是透過我們都是透過這個我請你們一定要跟直接溝通你們還是透過抒發部"},{"start":69.762,"end":81.617,"text":"我的意思是說這件事情是全政府大家都要動起來的事情因為主管機關是數位發展部那個工具在他手上我認為經濟部也有很多的工具可以去做就是"},{"start":82.813,"end":100.896,"text":"要不要裁罰這個是工具裁罰是最後一步但是溝通跟協調絕對是一個前期一個重要的工作我希望部長政府的滿意度要高支持度要高的話就是要讓人民有感那人民其實現在對於詐騙這件事情其實是很不滿的"},{"start":102.017,"end":117.149,"text":"那我認為這件事情每個部會都要動起來啦就是每個部會都要動起來都有影響力也都能夠做得到那只是裁罰是最後不得已手段最後裁罰才是手但是在溝通協調階段很多的就可以達到效果了"},{"start":117.509,"end":140.738,"text":"我講過就是當我們都看得懂這是個詐騙的時候臉書Meta不可能看不懂他們更有更多的方式可以去阻絕到事情我也希望未來經濟部要持續訂做事情而不是立法委員在上面質詢過後然後你們就放在旁邊然後就說喔這是訴發部的事情交給訴發部喔這是警政署的事情交給警政署我希望未來各部會當立委有提出這樣的要求三天內你也答應三天內會跟"},{"start":142.045,"end":168.935,"text":"跟演書Meta做溝通的時候我希望真的看到你們三天內做出的溝通而不是又丟給了速發部我認為這個是個不好的一個互動方式好 這個我們不知道嗎 請 未來要這樣子做那不然你當時就不要承諾我你三天會去溝通那如果你告訴我 我就知道了當初我們是想說因為數位發展部是主管機關我們還是要跟數位發展部共同來部長當重大社會議題的時候我希望各部會都有積極行政的態度啦"},{"start":169.882,"end":190.767,"text":"積極行政這件事情其實會變得很重要詐騙當是全全部人民都很厭惡的時候都很痛恨的時候的時候當經濟部門有更多積極的作為即使你是即使你一個關切的電話告訴Meta跟臉書的台灣的負責的相關人員告訴他們大家關注這一系題立委在"},{"start":192.007,"end":206.635,"text":"整個正式立法院委員會正式提出質詢那請你們要重視這個問題你們技術能力絕對有辦法做到那如果你們一個認真的告訴他們這件事情我相信他們會更認真的做如果他們不認真做這件事情的話那社會給他們的壓力會更大"},{"start":207.486,"end":236.211,"text":"好不好我希望未來這件事情是大家全政府是一起動起來我再次提醒啦齁人民很重視關切利己的時候全政府都要動起來跟你有任何相關跟機會方式都要請大家要動起來這樣我們才有辦法讓人民感受到政府在這件事情上的用心跟積極度好不好好再要請教一下現在有很多的國營事業也被假冒詐騙啦齁我認為這個也要加強宣導啦齁這個包括台電啊包括幾個都有可能被做這個這個是不是請"},{"start":237.151,"end":241.72,"text":"不斷的出新聞稿或者是圖卡說明這個不是這樣的情況"},{"start":243.142,"end":266.576,"text":"這個我希望一樣要重視這個就在經濟部轄下的包括各事業單位都現在詐騙手法非常的多翻線速度非常快政府唯有更快的效率去處理的時候才能讓人民很有感的覺得政府在堵住一方面我們加重這些詐騙的對他們的一些刑責一方面加重對他們的一些處罰同時但是只要你沒有"},{"start":267.236,"end":292.527,"text":"能堵住的話那既然這樣的事情就不會再發生我還是要強調啦有時候一被詐騙可能就是數百萬上千萬的一個損失那對每個家庭都非常大的一個痛所以我希望這件事情部長要再用我們用更積極的態度去處理啦很多時候我們常有水單電費的各種的都可能會形成他們詐騙的一個工具好不好我們更積極的處理的時候就有機會減少國人被詐騙的機會好的"},{"start":294.048,"end":320.041,"text":"再要請教一下 這個現在很多人在打擊綠電綠電其實全世界大家都在推動的我其實認為這個是對台灣是一個長遠來說是一個不利的一個發展方向全世界都在發展綠電但綠電在發展過程中一定有一些不孝業者去透過這個做違法的事情該打就打 該抓就抓 這必然要做的但是如果我們因為這樣而整體的限縮掉了所有的綠電的整體的發展"},{"start":321.121,"end":346.322,"text":"这对于台湾是不利的而且全世界现在很多企业都要绿电那对我们来说过度的去把这个绿电完全的堵住的时候对台湾未来的竞争力产生重大影响部长怎么看包括我们也觉得蛮遗憾的因为这个提案是基本上事实上民众党跟国民党都有提案那时候我们表达是说我们愿意用国民党的提案来作为协商的基础"},{"start":346.96,"end":362.214,"text":"但是很可惜並沒有被接受還是通過以這個民眾黨的版本那民眾黨版本是我們認為啦是過度嚴格啦部長那我請教行政院跟金門會不會再提出修正的版本出來因為這個綠電長遠來說是國際的趨勢也是我們重要的那"},{"start":366.218,"end":385.187,"text":"如果過頭了的話其實會對我們綠電產生很重大的一些影響經濟部跟行政院會不會再提出修法的一些這個提案回來希望能夠讓綠電但不效的部分不適合的部分讓我們做處理但是過頭了這有可能造成我們一定是要打擊非法的來保障合法的"},{"start":386.127,"end":400.108,"text":"那至於說要不要提出再修正這個我們來評估看看部長一定要提出來你不提出來的話你都認為這個對於整個台灣的競爭力長遠是發展是負面的是影響的你若不提出來的話那難道你要接受這樣一個狀況嗎"},{"start":401.434,"end":418.484,"text":"部長能不能在一個月的時間內提出行政院認為的修法的一個建議讓立法院整體來討論跟思考如果連行政院跟經濟部也都認為這樣的修法是過頭了是傷害到了綠電長遠的發展我希望一個月內提出經濟部的版本"},{"start":419.224,"end":437.326,"text":"提出進去的版本好嗎我們一個月會評估看看好不好一定要提出來啦因為你不提出來現在已經所有的綠電全部的全部已經很緊繃了嘛大家突然當年大家相信政府台灣要發展綠電的決心所以大家投入進來就發現突然現在一整個完全限縮回來之後那"},{"start":438.107,"end":463.152,"text":"這些原先信任政府相信政府要發展綠電的人全部會發現那到底政府的態度是什麼我認為應該要一個月內要提出來至少一個月內要提出來至少經濟部要提出你們版本你們的態度我相信你們都很了解也很熟悉了至少提出態度當大家擔憂的問題你們也做了解決但是有些過頭了影響到整個綠電長遠的競爭力的發展要提出你們的版本這樣才能夠讓"},{"start":464.732,"end":491.856,"text":"綠電能夠永續的發展這是全球的一個趨勢我認為經濟部要儘快提出來好嗎可以嗎我們來評估對好再來我來請教一下啦齁這個中油跟台電啦齁公安事故我一直在關切這件事情啦齁其實國營企業的公安事故我自己是老公子弟出生的每一個家庭如果公安發生了之後第一線是最辛苦的因為他可能影響到一個人甚至影響到一個家庭"},{"start":492.336,"end":510.316,"text":"我希望部長持續的包括董事長幾位董事長持續的重視公安事故這一段時間以來這幾年來中油12件台電29件這個都在增加而每一件的公安事故都是影響到一位工人第一線的工人甚至影響到"},{"start":511.437,"end":531.747,"text":"一個家庭 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主席有請行政院公共工程委員會陳主委還有內政部劉部長好 請陳主委內政部劉部長農業部農業部陳部長還有我們主席長主席長 OK 好好 這個主委主委好"},{"start":45.199,"end":67.286,"text":"花蓮馬太安吸菸社福災後重建特別條例第一條的第三項特別規定重建地區位於原住民族部落並因應原住民族基本法相關規定辦理我們馬太安的青年部落青年會馬太安部落的青年這個"},{"start":70.182,"end":88.404,"text":"昨天發了一個新聞聲明特別提到300億重建預算失衡行政院必須立即修正重建不能再重演沃拉克的錯誤我們提出五大訴求重建應以人的安全"},{"start":90.107,"end":117.166,"text":"居住前文化永细为核心而不是以工程量作为一个指标所以提了五项提升中继住宅预算不能让工程99% 灾民1%再度上演然后第二个是落实自由事前私情同意重建不能跳过部落第三 安全文化土地优先中继住宅限制不能炒税强推"},{"start":119.292,"end":142.157,"text":"第四 建立安全有尊嚴的避難與中繼系統災民不應該每次都逃到學校第五 工程不能凌駕人與文化重大工程需透明與審議這五大聲明 等一下我會把這個五大聲明這個等一下給主委因為你是整個法阿里的一個主管機關好 這個接下來"},{"start":148.552,"end":177.009,"text":"內政部部長就請回座等一下 內政部長等一下我們先從農業部開始還有公共工程委會主委昨天我有跟行政院院長質詢你也知道這個馬太安西菸社福它是最主要的剛才的聲明也提到人民的安全"},{"start":177.884,"end":202.877,"text":"是最優先 這個源頭沒有處理你在做怎麼樣的復建家屋 公共設施都做了堤防也做了 如果又潰壩所以這個部分你花了14.3億14.3億我再確認一下到底有沒有要挖那個壩體"},{"start":204.54,"end":225.066,"text":"我跟委員報告就是整個的霸體本身的一個處理它有非常多的模式那從過去這一個多月來我問簡單因為時間的關係有沒有要挖那個霸體14.3億裡面有沒有要挖霸體第一個就是不可能全部用人工去挖啦因為沒事的豪雨它本身就會帶出我們都談過很多次了主委陳主委"},{"start":232.506,"end":257.265,"text":"我们要很审慎的现在很重很严肃的问题很严肃花了14.3亿结果霸体还是存在这是按照你的说法霸体还是存在主委等一下14.3亿结果霸体没有挖"},{"start":259.136,"end":271.752,"text":"如果是这样我建议我只能建议我昨天也是说建议专业团队赶快开会甚至开国际标开国际标"},{"start":273.203,"end":288.297,"text":"到底多少錢可以把那個壩體挖下來我只是建議 不必說我們昨天已經在就是你壩體裡面的是水有那麼多水你把它炸開底下要接得住"},{"start":289.238,"end":315.272,"text":"好像樓上三樓那麼多水倒下來我只是很嚴肅的講喔所以馬太安溪要先輸進才接得住我剛剛講囉花了14.3億結果霸體還在然後地震或是颱風又潰壩這個是很嚴肅的喔所以我建議你開國際標還這麼當然你要先開專家會議所以優先要做變道上去才有更詳盡的監測按照規定"},{"start":317.893,"end":318.415,"text":"按照106年的規定106年中央的規定"},{"start":324.195,"end":349.24,"text":"烟射伏霸体就是要开挖一流道这是紧急工程中最有效的方法这不是我写的中央的规定时间的关系因为特别条例刚刚是一个中央的一个标准现在特别条例也规定马太安西烟射伏的整治这是第一条"},{"start":350.6,"end":363.13,"text":"解決霸體這是第一個最重要的一個工程所以這個部分你們回去再好好的討論好 時間的關係部長內政部部長這個光復鄉也要請主計長的支持光復鄉公所它也是一個受災"},{"start":374.244,"end":398.246,"text":"我請教一下 你們有沒有要補助他們這次的特別預算有沒有補助沒有 所以就請這個內政部請相公所提報計畫從一倍金 有15億的一倍金我們會詳細評估 跟災修有關的都會考慮在內這個部分 拜託跟災修有關的都會考慮在內他們真的是受災了 最忙"},{"start":400.39,"end":427.886,"text":"忙了快两个月了事实上不止两个月包括前面的撤离真的是不止他们也很辛苦 对真的是包括这些文件你看看 好不好另外农业部 部长你的那个11月10号的回函真的是不符合你当初答询我的时候"},{"start":429.377,"end":447.091,"text":"完全不符合所以然後呢時間主席已經站起來了然後我也開了協調會的結論這個部分另外就是很重要的就是說立法院也做了一個附帶決議就照這個附帶決議去處理好不好"},{"start":448.703,"end":465.552,"text":"我跟委員報告 能處理的我們一定第一時間就處理掉了不是 現在這個文就是有問題嘛你們的這個文就是有問題嘛就沒有辦法嘛 好不好回去再檢視一下就按照立法院所做的附帶決議 好不好"},{"start":466.857,"end":485.711,"text":"不是 如果土地不合法的時候我們就完全不能處理那相關的農機的部分他沒有農機使用證那我們可以從官認定那相對單純啊這個 你在立法院在星期五會親口答覆我的這個部分你回去再好好看一下好 謝謝鄭天才"}]}},{"id":"165569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1abc874e6c18c5f2663294d83d43b212b9ed37f72173c5d0932eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:55:10 - 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你們有什麼看法"},{"start":91.173,"end":104.05,"text":"報告委員所以我們在新兵一進到部隊之後的第一個禮拜我們就會替他做身心狀況評量表那這個身心狀況評量表的目的就是在於篩檢出兩個重點一個是"},{"start":106.993,"end":118.521,"text":"我們要的不是憑良表因為你我現在說的是你已經去求助這些可能在心理師社工師或者我們我們像委外的或心腹師這樣子的一個心腹官這樣的一個對象我們現在要的你說環境適應跟身心健康這兩個是比較多的"},{"start":128.308,"end":135.059,"text":"剛剛因為我們聽到其他委員在講的時候你既不插卡也不留記錄是確保私密的可是你做出這樣的結論那他的結論可以做什麼樣的精進作為"},{"start":139.52,"end":146.044,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛沒有弄錯方向您如果提的是心理衛生照護心理健康照護方案的話因為他的原則就是在針對一個人就是不去插卡就是說不用去求他自己去求助所以我們說你做這樣因為官兵去求助的這樣樣態的分析你們認為這樣子的結果我們可以有什麼樣精進的作為因為你不是增加預算而已啊"},{"start":168.597,"end":186.806,"text":"報委員那個如果是心理照護方案他是主動對外求助的這個部分他如果不是高風險或者是有特殊狀況的我們是不會要求他來通報我們只有去針對這幾個部分他需要立即協助我沒有要求他們一定要通報我們現在說的是我們編出這樣的預算"},{"start":190.382,"end":196.424,"text":"不然你就給那個衛福部去編就好了在全民健保編就好了因為現在全民大概都有這樣的狀況今天如果有我們國防部編列這樣的預算對於我們的軍事官兵他的身心健康我們是非常重視我們也不希望有這樣子的狀況持續的發生所以我們才編這樣的預算那這樣的預算你可以有什麼樣精進改善的作為這才是我們編預算的一個主要的目的啊你剛剛提到的因為"},{"start":219.713,"end":235.649,"text":"如果是新兵新訓還有二兵中哨衛居多那有什麼樣的狀況因為你們還是把他推給基層啦這個有很多的面向比如說有沒有長官壓迫有沒有虐待有沒有暴力有沒有不當命令過度操課或不當勤務的安排這個體休假制度的僵化"},{"start":241.215,"end":243.537,"text":"這個牽涉到我們所有的領導統一還有我們所有整體的政策還有職場的環境因為有很多家長也會跟我們說原來我們小孩很乖啊可是進到軍中以後好像學壞了賭博或者其他的習慣好像都來了那像這樣子的狀況"},{"start":258.507,"end":266.557,"text":"你有賭博的現象你可能造成他的財務會有重大的缺口因為我們也曾經接到陳情有的父母甚至幫小孩子去償還賭債甚至高達四五百萬到最後就跑路了"},{"start":272.29,"end":280.676,"text":"所以這樣的狀況你在他們心理之上我們今天如果說我們編這樣的預算你沒有辦法做一個你只能治標我們把預算編了然後大家就去求助求助以後到底結果怎麼樣可是你卻沒有反過來去做治標的一個根本改善部長這個您有什麼看法我想第一個我們並在做這個樣態分析絕對沒有把它就把它"},{"start":299.996,"end":306.744,"text":"規則到基層這樣的概念我們在做這個心理救助樣態的分析的時候只是在說明他的"},{"start":308.342,"end":333.064,"text":"因為你的題目有這個所以我們做一個太陽的分析然後另外進一步說哪一些單位的類型跟階級會比較多只是在做一個客觀的說明而已那至於剛剛有提到也許會因為它的環境適應是因為涉及領導統一那這就是成因所以我們要根據這一個現象然後我們再分析去說它的原因是什麼所以如果是領導統一有問題的話"},{"start":334.565,"end":344.678,"text":"那我想我們相關的單位就要去注意到這個相關的領導統一的問題所以這個部分的分析主要就是在從我們的這個三級的這個房屋的架構出發去分析出來部長 因為我們看到的這樣子的一個三級的一個架構"},{"start":353.368,"end":358.794,"text":"去做去分析分析出來沒有用因為他的實質的像這樣的問題還是存在我們要說的是當你在一直增加預算的同時因為我們在第一年因為現在第三年了嘛第一年在從事情"},{"start":369.665,"end":382.012,"text":"的60萬然後我們在今年也增加明年又要增加可是我們希望可以好好照顧官士兵的這些身心健康可是這些都是治標我們要的是治本所以今天如果說你把他的樣態產生的原因比較大的因素他應該要去做一個根本的改善就是我們"},{"start":391.297,"end":409.829,"text":"适度面我刚刚提到的很多可能发生的原因可能让他环境的适应是有问题的包括已经做了十几年的这样子本来都是默默在承受然后只要上起下打的命令他们都会尽力去执行的"},{"start":410.749,"end":420.532,"text":"現在我們也接到很多的陳情他們都待不住了所以就這個部分我們希望除了在增加這種心理諮商的預算以外要根本的去做治本的解決這個部分我們希望現在提供比較詳細的這樣的一個書面資料怎麼樣去做改善像這樣的制度面如果我們還沒有辦法找出問題我想這個花再多錢都沒有用這個部長可不可以認同"},{"start":440.784,"end":448.718,"text":"因為我們是在既有的這個三級的這個房屋機制之外剛剛委員問的應該是我們另外在今年做的心理健康照護方案是不是"},{"start":449.178,"end":476.979,"text":"沒有 照護方案那些都沒有關係我們現在說有這麼多軍事官兵他們不斷的有這樣的需求或者需求越來越高我們希望找出一個根本的解決方案它到底是因為什麼樣的因素你如果是感情因素個人的什麼其他的家庭因素那個我們比較沒有辦法那是個別的一個因素可是如果它是整個在軍中的環境"},{"start":477.659,"end":482.961,"text":"他讓他產生這樣子的心理壓力然後需要求助心理諮商我想這個我們要從制度面去解決這個部分部長同不同意所以我們才會有既有的我們初期發掘預防就是在於發掘書具有心理困擾的人那他可能是因為"},{"start":497.146,"end":501.369,"text":"部長我們不是討論醫學的方面我們從事情以來我們發現這個成效也不錯所以這個是雙軌來做那您現在講的是說要有一個解決的方案是不是那這個解決的方案就是"},{"start":514.258,"end":539.859,"text":"我們要分析他的這個原因然後透過他這個成因然後去加以去理解那這個部分的話剛剛有講到了民間的這個部分呢我們跟民間的這些合作機構會進一步再來讓他理解軍中的這個訓練軍中的環境是如何所以這個民間的合作機構就已經能夠適度的來協助這些那如果是屬於高風險的"},{"start":541.141,"end":546.627,"text":"具有一個高風險讓我轉接到地區新衛中心這個是我們現在做的一個方向那既有的初級的發掘預防我們也要宣導讓各這個所有的領導幹部都能夠去做好他的第一線工作那二級的部分部長時間的關係現在您沒有聽清楚我的問題"},{"start":560.723,"end":570.832,"text":"我剛剛提到的如果這樣子的人數在增加你的預算不斷增加表示需求量也在增加當中因為其實我們還有很多衛福部也有編這樣的預算我就說你牽涉到領導統一或者職場環境還有如果說我們在裡面有賭博而且甚至是群體性的這個都是根本的治本之道應該要找出方法來解決因為他缺錢"},{"start":588.246,"end":598.477,"text":"他被很多黑道或者像可能在最在的時候很多就自殺了所以就這些方面這些面向是我們軍中應該要去做治本解決的這個是我們現在今天提出來特別要求的這個部分我們希望在比較可以提供更詳細的一個"},{"start":610.349,"end":619.997,"text":"資料書面資料可以提供我們的軍中的環境的管教的環境或者是不要製造一些不良的環境給軍中的這些跑者嗎是這個意思對因為你的樣態裡面就有環境適應的問題那這個部分環境造成的是我們軍中的一個問題所以這個部分請再做一些比較更詳細更精進的資料因為當你在增加預算的同時你也必須要有解決的方案"},{"start":638.091,"end":651.337,"text":"這個部分我們希望可以後續提供那另外環境適應的部分我們當然要去找出它的環境適應的問題然後另外我要請教一下鳳展案現在目前的進度如何電站夾艙現在目前怎麼樣"},{"start":658.348,"end":674.263,"text":"副委員 鳳展案的夾艙這個部分是因為是要配合我們新式戰機的內置夾艙的一個研發階段他已經執行很久了嘛因為你原來而且你原來的預算因為我們那時候所以到底有沒有確定"},{"start":675.152,"end":695.829,"text":"這是確定的 是他不是後來增加 鳳展案在電站夾倉的時候這個已經執行很多年了而且他從42億變成12億他把數量都減少了所以後續現在進行的階段今天時間關係提供資料好不好 是在會後提供資料另外我要請教部長還有中科院"},{"start":696.91,"end":701.672,"text":"如果有廠商不斷的延遲交貨甚至從105年到114年幾乎每年在他應該進度落後的情況之下交貨都延遲而且還發生產品不合格被退貨中科院也把他列為C級廠商C級廠商大概就是不得報價也不得簽約嘛對不對"},{"start":720.197,"end":740.454,"text":"所以如果他還能夠順利的得到標案而且還算是還類似是指定的先從小批量到未來的大量那我們現在為什麼會有這樣的做法委員問的是中科院本身還在問中科院應該知道是什麼案子吧"},{"start":742.324,"end":752.76,"text":"如果是被我們列為那個C級的廠商他就不可能參與不可能嘛 確定那如果說他不斷的延遲交貨他可以再得標嗎"},{"start":754.127,"end":757.609,"text":"尤其是中藥都不行確定嗎好那相關的那個案例我們會後再討論如果真的有發生這樣的狀況要立即處理不管是中科院或者國防部而且甚至還有降規的情形就更不可原諒他不斷的延遲交貨而且甚至還是積極廠商而且我們還降規去符合這樣的需求這個就不可原諒再次提醒"},{"start":781.283,"end":785.646,"text":"那再一次利用一點點時間邀請教部長而且我們也希望他不可以再發生因為我們接到陳情就是我們有一些中部的這些年輕人他們這一次大概年齡大概都21到28歲他們去接受教招的時候我們在就是在過程當中有要求他們要填寫問答這個部分是常態嗎"},{"start":812.881,"end":815.803,"text":"填寫問卷這是常態嗎教召填寫問卷對委員講的是什麼樣子的問卷我唸幾個給部長聽他們就是說進去的時候請他們掃QR CODE雖然說這是匿名作答可是大家一開始可能也是配合也開心的作答可是進到作答的題目裡面的時候"},{"start":840.743,"end":843.305,"text":"他覺得是非常離譜而且浪費納稅人的錢第一個他們問到說政府施政滿意度是怎麼樣施政團隊大家感覺到滿意嗎還有美國以色列的國防GDP預算跟台灣來比較你覺得台灣國防預算GDP佔3.12是合理的嗎如果跟美國以色列比較這個預算會不會太少題目還有說"},{"start":870.302,"end":876.206,"text":"你覺得台灣這樣的國防預算跟對岸的國防預算比較差距是好幾倍你覺得我們應該要再增加嗎這樣預算是對等的嗎類似這樣的題目非常多還有題目說台灣自治的潛水艇叫什麼名字他卻沒有問說"},{"start":889.716,"end":891.038,"text":"潛艦花了多少錢這是他們在陳情的內容裡面可能提到的今天他們覺得這樣的提問是在製造戰爭的恐慌然後也沒有中立感因為其實"},{"start":905.9,"end":908.624,"text":"我們所有的不管是後備軍人不管是現役軍人其實大家都對國家忠誠可是當你的問卷牽涉到這樣子的一個政黨或政治的這樣的一個敏感的問題這是適當嗎"},{"start":923.095,"end":936.808,"text":"委員好我是選動署署長謝謝委員的指導但是據我所知我們在叫招的過程不會找QR code做這些問題那如果有呢那請等一下委員把相關的資料提供給我我們會徹底的來查證這個事實"},{"start":939.671,"end":957.13,"text":"因為我們的教召課程14天裡面沒有做這個問卷只有請教召員他自己去評估這一次教召的過程當中的課程對他來講是有精進的地方來做這個提升後備戰力來做的作為"},{"start":957.751,"end":978.227,"text":"所以剛好我問說是不是常態那如果不是常態不是可能固定的他可能是有特殊的這樣的需求可是有特殊的需求針對這樣的對象尤其在叫招的過程當中你提出這樣的問卷的內容都非常不恰當所以這個部分請了解以後再做一些相關的一個回覆好不好"},{"start":980.549,"end":1007.084,"text":"報告委員我這裡必須要很慎重的跟委員報告國軍永遠會保持行政中立國軍永遠是保護中華民國2300萬百姓安全福祉我們希望是這樣當你在過程當中有瑕疵的時候就要是去改善我們現在提出來就是瑕疵我們相信軍人我們也相信我們中華民國的國軍可是我們更不希望政策去做錯誤的引導謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d13a5e4c42bc31b47b0799e8a58cec5c3ef2a9d4295e9d8f3a3dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:44:36 - 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可是目前各界都一直提到執行效果不佳所以先想黃副部這邊是不是已經有跟司法院演繹如何提高我們的儲育計畫的裁定率有嗎 好 不"},{"start":60.319,"end":77.823,"text":"因為這個處理計畫是屬於民事保護令的範圍是不是由司法院這邊來做說明請司法院代表委員好"},{"start":81.014,"end":107.851,"text":"有关于这个处理计划如何促进各法院在受理期间我先就问你说你的裁定率有提高吗因为这个很重要因为加害人的处理真的事实上是蛮重要的我说明一下如果依照我们的统计数据经过促进以后在今年一到九月一到九月的裁定率我说明一下"},{"start":109.898,"end":115.894,"text":"好我看到了好"},{"start":116.755,"end":139.286,"text":"那個我們通保令通保令合法這個除疫計劃全國總平均28.01是比113年23.71有提高那證明1到8月我們跟衛福部的一些研究方案還有我們內部的促進方案是稍微有一些增加但這個應該還要再努力好"},{"start":140.006,"end":158.998,"text":"那就要再努力那麻煩司法院和法務部請回那我要講問衛福部就是說今天我們從被害人那邊大概在服務被害人團體都一直知道說他們根本就不知道原來有可以向法院申請這一項說要求加害人要來進行"},{"start":160.218,"end":176.768,"text":"處遇計畫所以我覺得這部分部長可不可以說明一下雖然沒有錯裁定事實上是我們司法院這邊可是重點事實上是家暴法還是在衛福部這邊那怎麼會是被害人不知道他自己的這樣的一個權益所在"},{"start":178.049,"end":192.419,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們在這個11月11月3號我們特別召開一個會議去討論怎麼樣呢這個去從幾個方面一個是縮短這個保護令的核發的比例或時效"},{"start":193.444,"end":213.832,"text":"那一方面呢也要加強這個被害人如何知道保護自己所以這些都是要在我們這個得知到有家暴通報的時候那我們的這個社工人員介入的時候或者是第一線人員介入的時候需要提供這些information這些資訊給被害人"},{"start":214.792,"end":238.046,"text":"通報人讓他知道所以我們在強化幾個一個是他如何收集足夠的證據他需要哪些證據能夠協助檢察官或者是法官去判定最後的這個家暴令的核發縮短他的時效第二個是怎麼樣自我保護他的意識上他怎麼在這段期間內去強化"},{"start":238.906,"end":263.986,"text":"食物現場反應加害人大概都會逃避儲育否認跟缺乏意願來解決問題那如何協助做加害人儲育的機構來解決這個問題就是說他們大家都是逃避不願意去被儲育所以不知道你們這邊有沒有一些對應的措施強化加害人是 去接受儲育"},{"start":266.545,"end":280.661,"text":"我們目前是跟委員說明這個加寒處於他是一個保護令那在55條有相關的一些聯繫機制再不行他不參加或參加時數不足或者是他有一些違反措施在61條有違反保護令"},{"start":282.623,"end":302.272,"text":"不過市長也知道因為很多被害人的經濟還是來自加害人現在還是給付所以部分加害人會以工作影響為由要求政府要給予貼補交通或者事實上是工時的損失這聽起來是不合理的要求可以要求在執行機構跟加害人來做如何來做一些協調嗎這邊"},{"start":304.893,"end":322.402,"text":"目前在執行處遇的一些機構他們都很貼心他有不同時段例如說在上班時間或非上班時間都有那另外處遇的費用目前也是由政府來支應所以基本上這個可能是一個理由但是我覺得他就是一個藉口"},{"start":324.282,"end":344.632,"text":"部長保護被害人絕對是不用懷疑的但被害人的各種權益有沒有被完整考量這才是重點不是我們在上面定一條法律大家就會乖乖配合就以為真的保護到被害人對被害人影響所以請問部長這次有關要做科技監控"},{"start":345.572,"end":360.975,"text":"部長有沒有做到完整評估不要讓被害人陷入更多的恐懼因為雙邊電子監控對被害人影響這麼大本來就應該做性別影響評估新法在性別主流化下也都有這一塊那這部分有可能要去做嗎"},{"start":361.716,"end":383.781,"text":"目前跟委員說明確實如何去強化保護被害人我們大家都在朝這個方向努力那麼至於說用科技設備來協助也有一些國家的經驗所以我們目前正在收集這方面我有收到團體給我們的很大的意見是說被害人"},{"start":385.121,"end":405.703,"text":"他很擔憂 甚至他的孩子雖然說感覺雙病 可是相對他也被監控所以有沒有評估這樣會不會更加激怒加害人引發更嚴重的報復如果被害人忘了帶 沒看或者是剛好沒看訊號有時候加害人靠近的地方一旦出了事情會不會又來譴責被害人"},{"start":408.634,"end":431.523,"text":"對 所以委員的顧慮我們都覺得很重要而且他們也提出來台灣空間距離很短如果是同鄉同村同社區電子監控到底要怎麼執行會不會一直在那裡狂想警報讓他們自己在工作上甚至在跟人家會面的時候聚會的時候受到很大的影響這個都必須考慮"},{"start":433.831,"end":452.321,"text":"所以最關鍵的是還是要深刻分析不是倉促上路所以按照西班牙他們當然也是目前做起來是最好可是他們有一些適用範圍跟風險分級評估你們有找尋到這樣相關資料知道說未來我們國內到底要如果真的要做要怎麼做嗎"},{"start":453.061,"end":473.543,"text":"我们会纳入这个收集的对象我们现在正在收集各国的做法上还有也要提醒因为我刚刚讲过被害人的经济是有些是来自于加害人的那如果怎么去避免监控导致加害人失去工作就最后受害的还是谁还是孩子跟被害人"},{"start":474.789,"end":484.859,"text":"這個要一併是不是要考量另外一個就是說目前科技的設備量能跟監控中心的設置的規劃如果要做你們的想像是什麼"},{"start":486.38,"end":508.9,"text":"我們當然想像上是這個不是只有監控它後面要有對應的措施那以我們現在衛福部的能力那個科技是小事是後面的怎麼樣去介入那麼這個恐怕不是只有衛福部能夠做沒有辦法做到這樣我們還是要考量到不過我就是要提醒"},{"start":509.841,"end":527.46,"text":"如果真的要做被害人預警機制如何設計還有什麼樣子觸發警示他警示後警方的介入程序這很多都要考量不是一個法定下去之後搞不好傷害到的事實上是真正可能傷害到是被害人好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝韋恩好 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我們看這個接下來"},{"start":133.888,"end":162.089,"text":"你們特別強調委託國內知名的海事專業廠商台灣世襲工程顧問公司這個公司過去是中華顧問公司我所了解的常常會碰到他們的都是鐵路公路橋樑所以不要特別如果你Google我也Google海事"},{"start":163.736,"end":191.205,"text":"公司没有他们呢所以这个部分呢不要把它捧得那么高也请这个董事长请这个提供台湾世袭公司在这个案之前他们做过哪些海事的好不好我们给我参考说不定他真的是很有名至少我所知道的好"},{"start":191.755,"end":216.636,"text":"常常會碰到他們的都是在鐵路、橋樑、公路各方面包括以前中華公務公司的時候我有的是30年公務員也是常常碰到他們的好這是一個部分然後這個剛有提到了這個現在說請教公共工程委員會"},{"start":219.799,"end":247.854,"text":"當然要看他的標案他委託這個台灣世襲然後台灣世襲一起專業評估然後這個向國內的三家廠商懸架這是在公文工程的作業裡面是有這樣的程序是吧報告委員這個大概就是一般工程慣例大概都是這樣的一個程序在走"},{"start":248.936,"end":274.709,"text":"好這個就是一個當然我們也可以說因為就缺乏這方面專業就可能就這樣說了因為專業團隊他設計出來有時候要看國內市場的這些營造廠他們的經驗互相查因為就是新的沒辦法就只有這幾家可以問了也沒有別的好"},{"start":276.641,"end":294.088,"text":"这个我要谈的就是说这个111年3月9号董事会中油公司董事会审议通过刚才有提到这个预算是112年度的预算董事长是不是"},{"start":296.718,"end":318.766,"text":"這個所需要增加的預算305億我們是把它編在103年到108年去分配113年到118年去分別納入進去預算編列是112年度增加的305億對啊112年度預算編列對 把它在112年的預算書裡面有去呈現你一直講113那又差了兩年了"},{"start":324.759,"end":347.839,"text":"一百一十二年度的预算都还没有审查就招标了就招标了111年7月29号结标所以这个预算又差得更远了所以这个部分这个都是一个表示中油的预算国营事业的预算那个是涉及到整体了"},{"start":349.929,"end":366.581,"text":"就是可以這個動用吸用就是111年那麼行政院通過這東西所需要增加的是三個工程案那麼以及要增加的預算我們都按照預算程序來去編列那麼在111年"},{"start":370.103,"end":381.628,"text":"在111年跟112年我們核定的這個預算數呢針對這三項新增工程是不會去通知到這個預算不要再強辯了反正這個都是要檢討的啦"},{"start":383.038,"end":409.645,"text":"我也沒有說你一定有責任反正就是要檢討今天就是檢討112年度的預算按照立法院按照法律的規定是8月112年度的預算是在111年8月31號以前送到立法院行政院通常都是在8月中旬左右"},{"start":410.936,"end":437.989,"text":"完成審議然後送到立法院所以那時候還沒有啊111年7月29號結標就還沒有嘛所以這個都是要去檢討的部分好不好那就接著這個部長留下來其他就回座這個部長就談另外一個議題這個馬太安溪淵涉浮所造成這麼重大的災害"},{"start":439.68,"end":462.952,"text":"結果很遺憾的在今年的11月10號望榮鄉明麗村跟鳳林鎮的長橋里又受到重大的災害這個就是一流點這個部長我其實我不知道你的想法我自己就很自責"},{"start":464.554,"end":490.416,"text":"因為在這個一個多月的時間部長我都碰過你好幾次 最起碼兩三次了光復鄉那邊的堤防我去看看了三次然後我也去這個下游的那個直沖的那個地方我也去了也到了建英橋前面的"},{"start":492.812,"end":520.785,"text":"這個鳳林三星也到了鳳林鎮這個高堤房那邊也去了我就想說大家都會有那個舒服啦我也認為我有舒服我沒有我本來也想去往望龍鄉那個就這個一流點的地方我想說那麼大的潰壩的時候9月20號那麼大的潰壩的時候都沒有怎麼樣這裡應該OK大概大家都這樣想"},{"start":522.487,"end":540.86,"text":"所以这个部分大家都要真的是要去要去非常非常的谨慎的前面的去检视好不好因为这里面时间的关系其实很重要的因为上面的源头"},{"start":542.113,"end":570.636,"text":"霸体还没有解决所以你现在是最重要的最重要的就是水利署经济部因为河床的疏浚堤防的修筑修固加高加固对就非常非常的重要然后以现在的那个霸体洗水量如果在台风的时候或者是地震的时候是不是就可以阻挡就不要一天到晚"},{"start":572.048,"end":584.582,"text":"一天到晚要撤离啊撤离啊小米也是很烦啊但是又为了安全啊所以你们现在是重中之重好不好好谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d17a65d3af85a2d6ea63294d83d43b212bf2a9d4295e9d8f3ae8ce97be1a103f415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:41:56 - 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謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":12.135,"end":39.105,"text":"部長好剛好昨天我剛好來之前就在看USCC的美國的報告他有提到就是說中國由演訓直接轉戰的可能性相較於以往更為提高它裡面的理由當然很多除了他們的新的這種兩棲的任務編組的改變之外其中也包含了他們現在對外的宣傳跟對內的宣傳的落差變得越來越大"},{"start":40.025,"end":58.581,"text":"再加上最近的國際情勢其實我認為當然我們對於風險的評估可能要再更為謹慎當然今天的題目是在針對這個新府相關的報告但我覺得前面還是提醒一下就是最近的美國這邊才剛出的一份報告"},{"start":59.782,"end":84.924,"text":"接下來就是關於新府這件事情因為我自己是在犯罪學研究所我的學生大部分是警察比較多警察他們常常面臨的一些問題就是因為他有中央跟地方他在地方政府的管轄範圍之內就有很多協辦的業務有時候這個協辦業務甚至到超過百項所以變成說這個警察要面對自己的業務的時候時間變得很少他要做很多的協辦"},{"start":85.925,"end":110.651,"text":"那照理說在軍中這件事情應該會稍微少一點因為第一個它最主要是一個跟中央有關的業務但我們在這個跟官兵呢在這個討論的這個過程當中呢發現還是會有一些相關的這些協辦的問題比如說呢就是呢這一個我們之前在這一個時空背景這是蠻久以前的事情因為那時候說要採檢嘛那我們說在採檢的時候呢其實我們採檢很多勤務部隊"},{"start":111.491,"end":127.478,"text":"那勤務部隊呢其實呢在採檢的過程當中呢這個衛哨的人力就出現了缺口那有一些比較不機敏的地方這個衛哨呢還有可能請這一個別人來支援但是比較機敏的時候呢這個衛哨就變成在同一個營區不同的單位大家要互相支援"},{"start":128.518,"end":143.451,"text":"這個時候就會變成說他花在自己戰訓本務的時間就會因而這樣減少所以不知道部長現在針對這一種就是我們的勤務部隊就是不管是說我們的人力要怎麼提升這是一個很大的問題因為我們的邊線本來就有不足的問題"},{"start":144.632,"end":164.925,"text":"又或者說我們要怎麼樣去增加它的誘因讓有人願意來做這個勤務部隊這個目前來講整體國軍的規劃是什麼可以讓因為畢竟協辦的業務少支援的事務互相支援的這一個業務少的時候他可以更專注在自己的本務上面這個心理的壓力理論上會比較小一些"},{"start":167.059,"end":186.787,"text":"呃所以委員講的是指營區本身的對營區本身的借戶還是指呃資源營區這些呃衛紹啊等等之類的對因為衛紹也是屬於呃營區借戶的借戶的一部分對所以這個部分我想作記師他們有一些有一些"},{"start":187.908,"end":202.162,"text":"委員好 我是座議事次長針對這個勤務的調整不管是後勤或是警務 警衛的勤務其實部長上任之後就要求我們是以檢法的思維來去考量官兵勤務上的一些負擔的調節跟調整"},{"start":202.722,"end":231.875,"text":"那因此針對這個衛哨勤務的部分我們已經準備要去針對非精敏單位比如說學校 國防大學等我們目前已經責定八個單位要來去試行改裁以保全的方式來去擔任所謂的分攤警衛勤務的任務讓相應的單位包含機關單位目前準備實驗是陸軍司令部等六個單位來去做檢討跟試行之後再來去擴大到其他相應的單位來減輕官兵的勤務負荷"},{"start":232.815,"end":261.725,"text":"以上報告那非機敏的當然我覺得這個做法這個方向是頗為贊同那機敏的部分當然很難這樣做這是沒有辦法的事情那就是說短期之內就是說這個人力我們不可能就是因為邊線比我們之前在質詢的時候也討論過那現在來講就是說不管是增加它多一些誘因比如說它這一個什麼擴大邊裂這些獎金的部分什麼等等之類的這個或許可以考慮那這個我們在因為這個跟機敏的單位比較有關係那我們"},{"start":262.225,"end":280.144,"text":"街道的澄清也比较多是跟基民单位有关那这个我们就是会后我们再来讨论但我觉得这个方向可能我们要注意是因为就像刚刚提到的部长上任的时候其实有这个所谓的减法思维我有把它整理在这边就是这是2024年6月6号所以已经是超过一年前了"},{"start":280.784,"end":306.065,"text":"超過一年前的時候那時候我有把我們任何的這一些有可能可以去減低壓力的去減少行政作業的我都有列出來其實上面的不管是簡化業務還有禁止這種比較灰色的命令等等之類的這其實慢慢都在往這個方向邁進但是我們要確保這一些改革的事項都能夠做到這樣才可以去回應到我們今天的主題就是讓他們的壓力不要那麼的大"},{"start":307.346,"end":332.526,"text":"接下來我想問另外一個就是這個其實是比較久以前的事情就是因為是有這一個有人拍抖音結果這一個因為他是在這個影區外所以他的手機可以使用結果他拍了抖音的影片上傳之後當然就是被處罰了被處罰了之後整個部隊就取消了這一般的榮譽架簡單來講就是有點連坐的概念"},{"start":333.146,"end":357.062,"text":"那我知道呢 其實過往我在質詢的時候呢部長其實已經有承諾就是說呢 連坐的這樣的一個做法不需要再出現那當時呢 但是 但是當時呢 其實呢 國防部也有回應到就是說啊 這個榮譽架他本身就是一個獎勵的性質所以獎勵的性質拿回來他不算是一個懲罰有這樣的一個說法但我還是認為 其實對我們 對一般的官兵來講"},{"start":357.982,"end":378.973,"text":"這個法律規定對他來講是一個文字遊戲你今天呢不是因為跟戰訓本務有關的一些事情如果說今天可以輕易的要處罰到其他部隊的人的時候對他來講他的實質上就是一個懲罰所以呢這個是一陣子以前的事情了那因為我們之前在看這個國防大學相關調查的時候"},{"start":379.773,"end":394.808,"text":"只要問到連坐問到一起被處罰這件事情即使現在已經開始減少了已經不再往這個方向去做懲戒了但是官兵還是會擔心就那個擔心的比例還是很高那針對這件事情目前觀光部有什麼作為"},{"start":397.371,"end":407.24,"text":"鮑委員我要藉著這個機會向您報告和澄清一下的確在去年腰動酒旅有發生這個比較久以前有發生這樣的事情那也如委員說的事實上所謂的18榮譽我們國軍的休假還是從這個假期當日早上開始那18是獎勵性子那事實上國防部也明令已經取消所謂的連坐法這件事情"},{"start":419.87,"end":438.596,"text":"那在這個案子裡面當中的確有發生庶民士兵跟對這個下士鬥毆的情形但是事實上我們經過了查證從司令部軍團一直到旅籍的查證事實上並不是因為有實施連坐法這件事情而是官兵有這個澄清我有看過的一些誤解"},{"start":440.737,"end":455.795,"text":"那相關鬥烏的官兵也都依照這個規定也含送法辦以上報告對所以這個就是說當然那個當時這個陸軍那個澄清報告我有看過啦那但是就是說我們在問的當下大家都是就是說啊這個就是"},{"start":456.315,"end":481.889,"text":"還是因為這個的原因啊等等之類這個沒有關係但因為我覺得調查本身不管是他們的反應啊他們的滿意度這個不太能騙人嘛對不對所以當他們有這樣擔心的時候呢就表示有可能可能不是在我們這一邊這一個指揮的長官但是下面的人有時候可能不管是揣摩上意啊又或者說他可能要達到特定的目的啊所以他可能還是做了相關的措施所以這一個可能還是要因為"},{"start":482.509,"end":505.634,"text":"有沒有灰色命令這件事情或者說呢有沒有連坐這件事情呢會影響到士氣那這件事情呢我們就是我們要固定的就好像我們勞動部會有勞檢一樣就是我們要固定的要去查就是是否有這樣的情形發生讓下面的意見能夠傳達上來這樣才可以維持整個軍隊的士氣那這個呢接下來我想問一下這個其實也是"},{"start":506.607,"end":532.546,"text":"也是一陣子以前的事情就是M1A2T這個我當時在這邊也是聽到很多人對那個T很有意見說這個台灣什麼之類那時候部長其實有都回應到但那時候我在這一個不知道他是反串還是說這一個還是這一個假帳號還是說真的是這樣子他在這邊他有去抱怨說這一個司令部中正堂改成這個忠誠堂"},{"start":533.887,"end":556.347,"text":"我會覺得這件事情有點奇怪就是說我們軍隊效忠的應該是中華民國這個國家我們軍隊沒有在效忠蔣中正蔣中正怎麼會是軍隊在效忠的對象所以如果說我們今天在國家裡面我們把軍隊的忠誠把它跟國家連結在一起這照理說應該是好事一件才對啊"},{"start":557.128,"end":573.605,"text":"但是如果這個意見是真的這個會讓我有點擔心就是說等於是我們用意識形態去凌駕了這個國家本身的這個認同國家本身的這個定位但我先不管因為它有可能是假的有可能就是反串的或什麼之類但我希望"},{"start":574.306,"end":603.666,"text":"像這樣的一個聲音如果今天在軍隊裡面有真的這樣的一個討論的時候是不是可以藉由不管是在舉光的時候等等時候其實要告訴我們的國軍我們認同的是中華民國這個國家我們要保護的是國家我們要保護的不是個人這件事情可能還是我覺得是當然我們講了很多剛剛講的不管是軍人的壓力我們希望他們有一些加急這些是對軍人的照顧但是對於國家的忠誠義務我認為這件事情還是非常的重要"},{"start":604.506,"end":631.525,"text":"好 那這個最後一點因為我看時間快不夠了就是這一個我們的這個駐外人員因為這一次我們的情報次長是穿著軍服去出席我們的這個華沙安全論壇那我有詢問了幾位這種就是長期有來參加這個安全地位的就發現他們都說當時就是只要有參加類似這樣的會議雖然效果在一開始可能並不是那麼的顯著"},{"start":632.205,"end":660.203,"text":"但只要过一段时间之后那个时候能够拉起来的线还有那时候能够有的讨论对我们的国防帮助非常的大那所以呢我就因为我们的国际地位真的比较特殊就很多国家不承认我们嘛对不对所以呢我们在参与这些会议的时候多少都会遇到一些阻碍所以目前我们现行的这一个就是驻外武官的一些不管是选拔的条件还有呢我们的人员够不够是不是能有更多像这样子的一些交流"},{"start":661.929,"end":677.76,"text":"您是說選拔五官的條件還是指說更多的這種多邊或雙邊的軍事交流對 更多的交流當然是一個其實這個條件我之前其實有特別提過就是說呢其實我們可以有更多更多元的人才"},{"start":678.4,"end":692.881,"text":"然後呢比如說我們的性別啊等等之類的在這一個方面呢其實我們的女性是比較少的嘛這個是我在之前的質詢問過那這一個我現在想問的就是說現在有沒有可能有更多這樣的交流我們更多的人才可以往這個方向前進"},{"start":693.992,"end":714.198,"text":"我想我們都會再鼓勵這樣子的一個多參與相關的這些交流的這些活動這個是一定的因為我現在是怕說我們的人是不太夠用的因為我們就像我剛剛前面講到的我們現在部隊裡面其實人就是不太夠用但其實我們現在對外這種需求是變得比以前更多了"},{"start":714.858,"end":732.031,"text":"所以我們現在因為以往我們在對外的時候很多都是外交部的人員啊什麼等等之類但我們現在我們穿著軍服來參加這個這個意義其實是非常的重大而且它所得交流的品質它所得到的成果是非常的好但我們國內的人就已經不太夠了有送到國外的人又會吃緊"},{"start":732.931,"end":747.319,"text":"那我們應該要如何是好最主要是想問這一點所以我知道委員意思就是說我們因為要推展這樣子的交流我們需要培育更多的這些人才我想這個是我們一直不斷包括我們跟"},{"start":747.859,"end":764.984,"text":"其他的美國的軍事院校進行這些交換或者是我們不斷的派駐相關的這些武官或者是我們的軍學人員到當地然後不斷的進修然後來取得對於這個當地國的能夠以當地國的語言來進行這樣的一個交流"},{"start":770.886,"end":778.315,"text":"是哪一國的我想這個都是我們要再多努力的方向如果人員能夠增加這樣應該是最好謝謝部長 謝謝主席 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我們請董事長還有部長 謝謝來 請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":22.538,"end":44.396,"text":"我想利用今天这段时间让大家质疑的部分让我们的董事长能够很清楚说明清楚让部长这里了解到底我们要怎么应对因为其实从媒体的报道当中我们一直强调的我们一定要直求对决"},{"start":45.681,"end":66.248,"text":"到底我們現在調查到什麼程度到底我們所有的狀況是不是如此我們要講清楚所以我大概有幾個現在在週刊的爭議問題我想我還是比較希望透過你們這樣一問一答把很確定的表達我們現在所了解的狀況第一個問題是他說"},{"start":70.697,"end":87.997,"text":"我们施工的过程劳安问题频传造成七个人不幸丧命有这件事吗有这件事情不过这个数字上有点误识应该是六个人六个人那为什么呢这里面有三个案子是发生的"},{"start":88.904,"end":107.978,"text":"第一個案子就是那個沉箱在台北港製作的時候在他遷移到暫存區的過程中由於公安設施的不完整造成這個沉箱傾斜海水灌進去以後沉到海底那我們有做了應該有的處置跟處分嗎"},{"start":108.698,"end":125.204,"text":"是 事后当然就去检讨这个原因的发生的原因去做了一个适当的一个防护措施对于失职的人员去做一个适当的处置那都有跟这六位不幸上命的劳工有跟他们和解吗公司有跟他们和解了吗是是是都有和解了都有都有"},{"start":125.664,"end":142.919,"text":"那我们也做了处置对于失职的人员有做了处置造成这件事情不幸的事情那第二个问题他说这个工程内容品质不佳招职是豆腐渣工程那这个部分呢"},{"start":143.935,"end":171.721,"text":"这个部分所指的就是也是那个城乡的问题同一件这两个案子不同件一个是针对品质一个针对公安对我是说他的工程都是你说的城乡都是同一个工程同一个城乡的工程对那么城乡制作完以后他要移到一个暂存区去放尸在那边去养护那么由于这个每一个城乡他之间的距离不够"},{"start":172.864,"end":184.418,"text":"所以照永浪這邊去衝擊以後呢這個城鄉互相碰撞而造成破損這是第一個原因是因為它的距離不夠所以整個衝擊衝撞造成兩個城鄉"},{"start":187.628,"end":213.31,"text":"碰觸而造成他們有破裂的狀況所以並不是所謂的豆腐渣工程並不是說在這個鋼筋混凝土的參混比例上有問題或者是裡面有參一些特殊的東西其他的東西而造成的是因為距離不夠是沉箱的距離不夠然後他沒有計算到整個浪衝擊的狀況而造成兩個沉箱衝擊碰撞對不對是是這樣好"},{"start":215.188,"end":241.575,"text":"那麼第三個問題就是現在每天電視上都會看到的就是說我們是不是有福報預算金額對於整個三接二期的外推工程是不是有福報從原本的我們的94億然後因為我們的高層跟廠商私底下"},{"start":243.004,"end":245.651,"text":"做一個協調而暴增了成為253億然後說還有"},{"start":250.525,"end":277.22,"text":"錄音檔我這個讓大家覺得好像是一齣連續劇一樣那這個問題呢報告委員就這個錄音檔裡面所呈現或者是週刊所報導的事項這個場景實際的場景是怎麼樣不知道如果就週刊報導的文字去看這應該就是業者之間在那邊爆料引述說中油公司怎麼樣引述中油公司怎麼樣"},{"start":279.007,"end":300.353,"text":"這個裡面沒辦法證實這個參與的人有中友公司所以你認為現在說有廠商跟我們高層的這個對話並不是這個樣子應該是廠商的爆料引述是這個樣子 對不對所以不是我們所謂的高層跟廠商之間的對話錄音"},{"start":302.253,"end":319.139,"text":"不是不是嘛現在所得到的訊息是這個樣子那麼這所謂的94億因為週刊有跑出一個94億這個94億從哪裡來的你有沒有去了解OK那麼但就實質面來看我們當然自己公司內部來檢視這個94億120億150億是從哪裡跑出來的是"},{"start":325.373,"end":348.692,"text":"目前內部的資料是完全沒有顯示這些數字我們得到的第一手台灣司機給我們的報價資料就是238.4億之後經過相關的程序以後最後預算調整到253億那麼之前所提到的那些數字完全在我們公司內部資料沒有呈現"},{"start":349.79,"end":370.998,"text":"所以在我們內部資料從來沒有出現過這94億的這個數字完全沒有因為這個重要的是預算我相信我們都在嚴格把關如果從94億然後沒有經過適當的程序而暴增到253億我也覺得很奇怪 你要怎麼報"},{"start":373.973,"end":403.353,"text":"你們還有審查的機制啊這個暴增非常多不是一億兩億說我變更可能我如果變更工程或是我有一些必須要突發的增加我們也有一定的程序這個都有比例的問題啊從94億跳到253億這個一看就不合啊尤其我們這個從過去到現在我們幾乎看了17年的預算"},{"start":404.413,"end":432.015,"text":"你要从94亿暴增不论是你是不是国营事业你是不是中游可是你还有一定的我们财政的一个规律没有人敢所以我才会说94亿到底文字有没有这个数字那董事长说是没有没有完全没有所以你们的数字里面从4C给你们的唯有一个叫238亿"},{"start":434.299,"end":454.047,"text":"對沒錯對不對然後最後你們所有調整完之後才跑出一個253億是的對不對在我們的資料裡面就這兩個數字從來沒有所謂的94億從來沒有所以董事長我覺得你們要很清楚的對外坦蕩蕩的"},{"start":455.919,"end":464.961,"text":"非常清楚就是没有这94亿的数字所以如果有人在引用不实的我们也不排除要"},{"start":466.127,"end":489.492,"text":"有法律的途徑因為這個真的把我們中油的這些辛苦的員工大家好像有一個陰影在好像我們私底下在做什麼樣的一個動作其實是沒有的嘛所以如果依照我們前面兩個問題就是六個人的不幸善命還有所謂的工程內容品質這些都是城鄉的問題嘛"},{"start":490.752,"end":518.629,"text":"那这个部分我们已经处理了已经完成和解了跟当事者六位上面的他的家属有要求我们的厂商跟人家和解吗都有吗都有确定吗确定确定都有确定吗所以都和解完而且也进行了所有相关的惩处对不对好那内容品质部分不是品质的问题是因为距离没有拉好所以这个要处分呢他为什么当时候设计是这个样子"},{"start":519.629,"end":544.255,"text":"但是它並不是豆腐紮工程是因為城鄉的距離不夠造成這個浪的衝擊趴來趴去那樣子很恐怖因為我在安南區我看很多我們整個所有海岸線那種衝擊那個是不是你能夠用一般的想法說那有可能真的有可能"},{"start":545.327,"end":565.476,"text":"所以我們一定要把每一個事情把它分得很清楚對外講清楚不要蒙上這一層陰影而且第三個問題是我們根本從頭到尾就沒有94億這個數字就算世襲第一次的資料就是238億然後最後調整完之後還減少變235億"},{"start":569.113,"end":592.727,"text":"253億是250增加到253億所以我覺得就是要把它講清楚所以我覺得說今天我們希望透過這個機會讓我們中友公司講清楚一點一點把媒體報導的部分釐清然後如果有人在引用錯誤的我覺得我們還是要輸出法律途徑因為我們已經說明清楚了好 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我們請內政部部長請劉部長"},{"start":15.267,"end":33.638,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長我先針對這個馬太安溪燕舍湖災後我想請教的是因為每一次現在發現就是花蓮不論是光復鄉或名利村這樣子每一次這個大雨或者是這個颱風過後會變成就是說整個"},{"start":37.28,"end":51.355,"text":"道路整個泥濘或者是說整個艷澀湖溢流那我想請教因為這個災民其實到了這個紅色警戒可能災民就要疏散到這個安置的一個地方那"},{"start":52.316,"end":73.542,"text":"我認為就是說這幾個地方應該要好好去思考這些居民如果說災後譬如說颱風過後然後我們又把道路或者是家裡面的泥沙清完之後下一次的颱風或下一次的大雨又造成地區的這樣子的淹水然後又整個土石"},{"start":74.723,"end":91.003,"text":"這個泥流下來其實我覺得對這邊的災民確實是非常的辛苦那當然就是說地區有人在提到就是說是不是有一個中繼安置的一個計畫那我覺得說這個地方是不是"},{"start":92.744,"end":108.65,"text":"讓這些災民或是讓這些村民能夠到一個比較安全的地方而且是讓他可以在那邊安身立命的地方而不是說每次颱風過後或者是洪水來的時候就要求他們要去安置的地方安置所"},{"start":109.17,"end":125.509,"text":"那這個大水過後又回到自己的這個家裡面其實我覺得這樣子反反覆覆對他們來講都是一個心理的煎熬那是不是可以先請部長回答好 謝謝黃委員的關心黃委員苦民所苦我們都非常了解現在目前的復原重建計畫從上游的這個監測"},{"start":128.172,"end":144.248,"text":"是我們的農業部在負責監測的部分現在越來越有科學的數據可以讓我們了解如果還有其他的天然災害的話我們怎麼樣做好的監控然後再來就是水利署他們在做超級提防的部分這是短期裡面先防災的角度然後減災然後你提到有關於居民如果要離災的話第一個我們要先跟居民要做充分的溝通"},{"start":152.916,"end":158.319,"text":"也就是說他們願意先到中紀屋去現在行政院指導之下我們現在已經有150戶左右在做規劃還有他們如果願意做比較長遠的規劃的話第一個我們必須要跟縣市政府或鄉鎮公所達成共識包括他們在國土計畫或者是他們都市計畫裡面做真正要做大規模的移動或是大規模的遷移的部分的話我們會來協助可是在這次的重建特別預算裡面是以重建跟復原為主"},{"start":182.27,"end":207.529,"text":"那未來如果有這樣子的必須要做的話呢我們會尊重地方政府的要求那在內政部包括我們的國土計畫或是包括我們的都市計畫甚至處理鄉規計畫我們都會來協助好 我希望就是說不論是中央或地方大家一起合作讓所有的民眾都能夠在當地安身立命而不是每次大雨或颱風來就非常的害怕可能家裡面的家當所有的財產就這樣流走了"},{"start":209.551,"end":213.153,"text":"好那謝謝部長那接下來我想請教那個農業部部長陳部長喂好"},{"start":227.233,"end":244.204,"text":"部長好部長我想請教就是說從那個非洲豬瘟發生到現在也將近快一個月的時間那這個一個多月的時間那你們這個廚餘禁養豬也差不多一個月的時間那我想請教部長你的意見就是說這個廚餘這個禁廚養豬"},{"start":249.887,"end":268.183,"text":"未來農業部是有什麼樣的計畫或者是因為我們看到現在多數的豬農認為這個廚餘不應該再來養豬因為萬一如果還有一個非洲豬瘟的話影響到的這個整個豬的產業鏈將近兩千億那我想請教部長你的意見"},{"start":269.332,"end":288.215,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是我之前也說過了就是初一本身如果落實真主他安全的時候初一養豬是沒問題的所以我們有三個前提就是說整個真主設備他一定要有及時的監控然後地方政府要落實稽查然後設備要相關的匹配"},{"start":289.036,"end":312.928,"text":"所以部長我要跟你講的就是說萬一所以我覺得中央政策應該要很明確既然說目前全台灣就是百分之八左右養豬場百分之八左右是用處於養豬那有可能這些百分之八如果萬一不小心然後又有這樣的一個非洲豬瘟產生"},{"start":314.268,"end":332.782,"text":"這個影響是全面的這個養豬業所以我想請教部長未來這個部分除於禁養豬這個部分是不是中央也要好好去思考要不然萬一如果還有一次我想謝謝委員的提醒其實我們跟行政院還有環境部這邊一直在討論那以農業部的本身當然"},{"start":333.723,"end":350.136,"text":"只要有廚餘就是一個風險但是廚餘本身是不是能夠有一個有效的去再利用或去化如果說我們一下子馬上進的時候那後面造成的環境的影響那更大所以我想我們會持續跟環境部在溝通"},{"start":350.896,"end":367.556,"text":"相關的中央的政策應該很快就會有一個比較完整的所以應該是後續的配套全部對 配套措施我們會出來目標就是處於進養豬是那後續的配套應該要去好好對 我們會盡快的提出來後面的轉型的一個輔導我們盡快會提出來是 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1d28587ad0a75d3cf7119a7747a4c5c6c9ed37f72173c5d099aee49d70c0691da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:21:18 - 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一個危險狀態那有423座橋樑其實是養護不足的這樣的一個情形那我請教一下工程會你如何去督促中央級地方來加強橋樑的這些養護來請說明一下橋樑的檢測跟維護當然是主管機關"},{"start":206.567,"end":235.01,"text":"工程會的角色是要去盤點要去了解各機關有沒有按時去檢測有沒有依檢測結果比方說U4 U3去進行改善那麼工程會都有持續去督導跟查核那對於如果機關未依這個規定來進行比方說可能有的要改建或者是要整修的工程會會單獨針對這些機關特別發函要求他們改善"},{"start":235.751,"end":238.671,"text":"好 那個陳元柏次長來簡單再補充說明一下"},{"start":239.386,"end":245.27,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關縣市的老舊橋樑在屬於交通部所要負責縣市裡頭跟委員報告一下所有的各縣市對於橋樑的檢測大概都有按照這種方式來做幾乎達到百分之百但是至於剛才這裡特別提到大於3、4要做修復的這部分我們是透過每一年的縣市的一個考核養護考核裡頭去看"},{"start":268.706,"end":282.231,"text":"那如果有這些橋樑要修復的部分沒有做我們會督促他做那另外有部裡頭公路局有相關的經費來補助他們每三年大概15億的這是很重要的一個環節相關的橋樑不管是必須立即性的補強維護或是一年內必須要加強維護的這些作為全國還有那麼多的橋樑這個對人民的生命財產保障是非常大的衝擊必須加緊相關的一個措施"},{"start":298.778,"end":323.016,"text":"我认为工程会应该跟交通部还有运营所以及各县市政府要加强合作我们必须要依照它的风险的一个程度构造的形式地理的位置甚至是交通的流量以及既有的结构等等来建立分级以及养护的一个制度来建立这种养护的履历来 陈彦博你简单说明一下目前的作为"},{"start":324.572,"end":349.392,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下工程費當然是整個人匯整那其實在橋樑下來主管機關包含交通部內政部等等的都有負責要去督導的縣市跟他所要督導的橋樑那這一部分剛才我也特別提到在對於尤其是對於U等於4的這個要立即要修復的部分我們會透過縣市的督導然後而且相關經費的補助請他盡速的完成"},{"start":352.955,"end":378.809,"text":"那至於U大於3的部分U等於3是要一年內修復那這個我們也會跟縣市政府來加強陳主委我一直認為工程會是必須要領頭來建立小組以及相關的審查程序你各單位各維護單位他要提供人力以及物力的相關的協助工程會都有在進行甚至最近也在研議關於檢測方法"},{"start":380.65,"end":408.326,"text":"不同的检测方法可能会导致不同的判断不同的检测我们还是要加强高科技的这些巡检的状况空拍机或者是AI影像的辨识技术或者是大数据的模型等等来提高巡检的一个效率就是比较接种一些设备好 那我们这个都会全力的支持也必须要积极的加强这些相关桥梁的维护来保障人民的生命财产安全"},{"start":409.721,"end":409.742,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1b43ac1333c9072460799e8a58cec5c3e45c75d439e1a44ece8601f8ea01c43fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:55:55 - 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那再做成案子 報到我們經濟部來我們經濟部也就會經過審查 然後再報到行政院去那行政院呢 他通常會交付給國發會做審查那國發會會再問相關部會 包括公共工程委員會他這樣的案子是不是合理那這樣的情況之下 行政院才會核定"},{"start":434.238,"end":450.272,"text":"所以當初是有這樣子一個流程的是不是所以當初你們並沒有發現有福報嗎所以最主要是在中油裡面還是在經濟部"},{"start":452.762,"end":475.089,"text":"是不是委員我做進一步說明好你說那麼剛剛部長所報告呢是針對計劃本身整體計劃的部分那會有經過部啦到國發會啦到院去核定這整體的計劃那至於這個計劃要實施以後對於各項的工程那麼所需要編列的預算去公告招標"},{"start":475.939,"end":495.438,"text":"那這個部分的話是審核就在公司的董事會核定並沒有報到部裡面去了那剛剛部長也提到就是說講得很清楚因為這個工程它是牽涉到很專業所以對我們公司來講必須要委託專業公司來做這個海事工程的一個評估給我們報價"},{"start":496.579,"end":520.922,"text":"那这个过程中会经过公开阅览经过厂商询价最后所定出来的提供给我们是253亿的一个预算公司这边接到253亿以后当然会去复核会去审核这里面所编列的项目的合理性那我们审核的结果是认为是合理的所以经过董事会之后才进行后续的采购"},{"start":521.837,"end":540.447,"text":"好現在民眾最質疑的不是當初你們認為是不是合理的而是到底整體的採購這個發包案到底在成本的合理性上面是不是能夠受公平是不是能夠更有效率的我希望"},{"start":541.087,"end":560.789,"text":"不管是公共工程委員會還是經濟部應該要責成行政院對於所有工程成本的合理性要進行你們要也許成立一個新的單位或是相關的就是跨部會的小組一定要對這個我認為鞏部長你可以提出的"},{"start":562.309,"end":585.799,"text":"因为公共工程委员会它本来就有一个什么项目什么样的工程什么样的成本它有一个range让大家可以依循跟参考那你如果超过这个价格显然那会不会是range go我是说应该你们要有一个成本合理性行政部会要有一个成本合理性的一个公共工程成本合理性的这样子一个组织啊"},{"start":586.559,"end":607.035,"text":"你才能告訴民眾啊不然你們現在根本大家都在懷疑啊不是公眾會就是這個單位啊扮演這樣的角色我知道我是說他們要召開要來說明啊還有我還有第二個問題就是在挪威人這個事件上面那我想請問一下"},{"start":609.272,"end":623.62,"text":"所涉及的因為我們在2022年有修了國家安全法對於商業間諜以及營業秘密外洩有相當就是說程度的規範這個是國家核心關鍵技術項目清單裡面有32項我想要請問部長"},{"start":633.583,"end":659.956,"text":"羅為仁如果把兩奈米以下的排氣墊的技術帶到英特爾去那這涉及到哪一個技術就是技術清單裡面哪一個項目報告委員就是說的確這些清單它的這些項目是我們經濟部來擬定的那當然經過相關的程序是確定下來"},{"start":662.474,"end":677.032,"text":"但是罗一仁拿走什么样的技术这个应该由台积电来认定我们也会配合高检署的调查来做说明他拿走的相关技术是不是符合"},{"start":677.873,"end":703.899,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這個清單裡面如果符合這個國家核心關鍵技術的項目清單的話那他就就是違反了國家安全法是不是有這樣的疑慮對是不是有這樣的疑慮那還是由司法單位來最後的判定那如果他違反了國家安全法的時候我們就要怎麼樣你們會不會要"},{"start":706.744,"end":729.809,"text":"起訴你們要 這個由司法單位才有辦法做決定對我是說你們是不是要去要要要提出 檢調單位跟司法單位才有辦法做那現在司法單位有做進一步的調查嗎 高檢署有開始在調查所以高檢署進行調查 對對對那台積電還沒確定這個我們就不知道因為這是偵查如果需要我們配合的話我們當然就會配合"},{"start":730.009,"end":755.864,"text":"所以你們目前還不瞭解台積電確認這個核心技術外洩的部分是到什麼樣的程度你們不瞭解這個要由公司來說明比較好那你有瞭解他們評估的進度是如何的嗎什麼進度就是他們要查明這個外洩的進度是說高檢署還是台積電"},{"start":758.756,"end":785.227,"text":"因为什么样的秘密泄露出去这个也是属于秘密这个我们还是要尊重台积电对可是我认为你们还是要去了解因为涉及到国家安全的国家安全法的相关规定还有这涉及到现在我们整个就是说半导体要移到美国去的这样子的相关的问题"},{"start":785.887,"end":807.523,"text":"那民眾對於這個相關的到底關鍵技術有沒有外洩以及能不能留下N-1最核心的技術在台灣這都是我們目前民眾所關心的問題我們請部長回去好好跟台積電溝通了解可以嗎可以可以可以好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":814.332,"end":817.819,"text":"接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d148cc023c6088a0837119a7747a4c5c6c9ed37f72173c5d09adbe9fa3377f5b155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:52:18 - 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那我請石部長請石部長還有我們中拼長蘇聯好還有國務部的張司長拼長跟司長請"},{"start":22.544,"end":45.951,"text":"部長 我今天這麼聽下去我們衛福部好像不是這個法的主責單位我看你們都是做末段而已啊前面發生 發生問題啊 有人傷亡啊 站起來啊你們也死不勝利啊所以你們都是後段 我不是在善後部長"},{"start":48.772,"end":76.601,"text":"當然不是跟後段其實從前段我們就開始努力了對於這種家暴意識的宣導通報機制的建立還有後段社工如何介入協助然後到保護令發生之後的陪伴這些我們都是涉獵在其中我們看就在我們東港發生的家暴叫做暴案"},{"start":77.501,"end":98.018,"text":"不然檢查就來了後來之後就做筆錄筆錄之後做錯了或是去派出所做了之後他就上地檢署上地檢署有的是韓送有的是南東州阿企現在去到地檢署可能檢察官問問之後檢察事務官問了檢察官附訊有可能就上訪問訪之後法官要保護你們要出來"},{"start":105.615,"end":116.418,"text":"好 保護令出來了沒有 保護令不要緊出來了保護令出來了 這個保護令是交給誰去執行我們 廳長 廳長你來回答一下"},{"start":123.421,"end":139.289,"text":"這跟衛福部沒有關係要怎麼執行是警察執行還是你們法務部的人執行保護令合法以後我們要24小時內立即送達給警察機關的加防官同時送達給當地的保護的家庭暴力防治中心"},{"start":142.19,"end":168.876,"text":"那保護令的執行在加法21條有好幾種方案那其中如果涉及財產什麼的當然是由我們的執行處去執行那如果是要帶同進去取物品的也是警察機關進去這有幾個但是保護人命最重要的是給加防官就是警察機關接著要不要做庇護單位的相關庇護的是所以你是交到"},{"start":169.696,"end":186.308,"text":"各個分局去了警察分局去了警察分局裡面分局還是派出所因為夠 夠 夠交房官設在分局設在分局那人力配置是夠嗎第一個第二個"},{"start":187.689,"end":209.084,"text":"我這次修法是希望用電子絞料啦 手銬啦你給它含這個大堆 它跑出去你就要有警示警示就有一個科控中心 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法務部來"},{"start":73.564,"end":95.195,"text":"那跟委員報告就是委員的這個數據有關那個案件數的部分那它其實是包含一般的函送案件跟現行犯移送的案件所以那大部分現行犯移送案件它是比較嚴重的案件所以說我們的那個申請羈押會在這個現行犯的案件移送的時候來做進行那目前呢那個本部"},{"start":95.755,"end":125.135,"text":"经过统计在这个今年跟去年来比较去年一整年的我们的针对违反家暴法的羁押的件数是274件去年那今年的1到9月已经到344件所以其实是有逐步的提升那针对相关的检察官的教育训练还有就是我们跟这个相关部会之间资讯的这个连结我们也都来强化以这个把这个事证收集的更完整之后然后作为检察官他办案的一个参考依据以上报告"},{"start":126.676,"end":140.107,"text":"這個申請羈押的比例過低我覺得其實就是檢察官他們的意識不足而且他也輕忽這一個違反保護令他對於這個被害人的這樣的一個傷害跟心理的恐懼"},{"start":141.168,"end":169.753,"text":"我們來看一下今年的這個土城的案件發生在土城的這個案件我覺得我們中華民國的政府應該不允許有這樣子的情況出現已經拿到保護令的被害人竟然會在街頭就是被這個加害人持刀行兇刺死我們的法律我們的政府機關我們的公權力我們保護不了一個拿著保護令的被害人"},{"start":170.553,"end":186.113,"text":"這個真的是要好好徹底的檢討這一連串的從警政機關移送到這個檢察官之後檢察官竟然是無保請回這個人已經是違反了保護令"},{"start":187.475,"end":212.754,"text":"那為什麼你們在審理這樣的案件的時候檢察官沒有任何的這樣的一個意識或者是想要深入去理解檢察官不能去調閱就是之前的這個人到底有沒有違反的紀錄嗎不能去調閱相關的這一些社工在處獄的這一些報告嗎有沒有參採是不是太輕率太草率了這個案件你們沒有去好好的檢討有嗎"},{"start":216.361,"end":236.127,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個案件發生之後那我們內部有做一些相關檢討也跟這個衛福部這邊都有參與相關的會議那主要就是說有關這個資訊的收集的部分那可能當時有一些落差那導致蔣官他在在這個詢問被告的時候他沒有完整充分有關這個加害人"},{"start":237.107,"end":259.84,"text":"過去的這個違反家暴令的一些相關的記錄資料所以是太草率嘛我覺得檢察官在承辦這類的案件他們可能覺得不是很重要的案件他手上很多他沒有把這個市委是重要要去辦的案件嘛那這樣子就很容易因為他的不夠積極的辦案他就疏忽了很多的證據啊應該羈押而沒有羈押而導致這個悲劇發生嘛"},{"start":261.641,"end":276.76,"text":"那個時間就是7月6號他無保請回 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怎麼做"},{"start":398.693,"end":425.558,"text":"這個我們要再研究一下看這個怎麼處理這個因為這都有涉及到人生的自由行動跟隱私的問題所以就不處理嗎所以就不用做嗎我們會來研議看怎麼做我必須講我們現在所有的政府機關今天委員為什麼紛紛提出修法就是你現在保護令不足而且悲劇都已經發生了那你們還可以緩如牛布的修法說半年以後再提版本"},{"start":427.057,"end":451.695,"text":"這個就是沒有把它當一回事嘛有在重視這件事情嗎如果有在重視這件事情怎麼需要半年的時間才可以提出修法的方案呢趕快部會 趕快互相去開會這件事情今天才發生嘛 已經質詢多久了今天是召委才排這個案子你們知道土城那個悲劇已經多久了當時大家說 這個方向很好我們也覺得可以往這個方向做"},{"start":452.555,"end":474.777,"text":"結果呢 今天各部會報告各寫各的沒有人要單起來做這件事情就是推來推去啊這件事情到底誰該負責 誰主責這個修法的工作 部長是你嗎 還是法務部我們會來主責這個修法啦那就加快 這個半年絕對沒有辦法接受啦你可以加多快 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因為我時間有限齁"},{"start":275.492,"end":297.745,"text":"部長剛才這樣子應該你很聰明啦你應該都聽懂他們什麼意思了讓中科院提供提供所謂的管制名單已經是被拒網戶囉已經被停權了三年然後提供給國防部照樣他這是三軍啊通通都在得標啊請問一下這樣的採購程序有沒有問題啊"},{"start":299.393,"end":326.311,"text":"跟委員報告大概分三點第一點就是說有關那個已經在他每個月提供以後那麼已經在旅業中的案件的話他就要強化旅業文件的查證增加房廠督檢的品質還有落實交貨驗收查驗來確保交貨的品質跟產力來源無疑這個是在旅業中的部分那麼有關這個招標的這個部分呢如果他是屬於最有利標的方式的話他就會被納入這一個"},{"start":327.051,"end":333.496,"text":"有關這個等於是負面的這個記錄所以就會提交委員就把它列入這個所以這家公司真的超級好那第三個已經有被拘謊戶然後你們還用最有利標"},{"start":342.982,"end":370.377,"text":"最有利標它就不能得標就最有利標它不能得標那現在委員問的就是說這些有得標的它是屬於最低標的那這個涉及到一個法律問題就是說中科院它不是它是屬於自辦採購案所以它不是屬於政府採購法規範的提前廠商所以現在有一個法律上的爭議就是說這些不屬於政府採購法的提前廠商那如果我們辦的案子城南國防部的這些所屬的標案假設是在"},{"start":371.377,"end":378.321,"text":"最低標的這個方式的話而不是才最有利標最有利標他沒有拿到那屬於最低標的這個方式的話他還沒有來投標的一個資格那如果他有投標的一個資格他得標了以後我們針對他履歷中的購案我們為了防範他違反企業我們就要相關單位持續要來落實我剛剛講的這些項目來確保交貨的品質幹啥所以現在有關"},{"start":396.853,"end":420.312,"text":"有沒有問題中科院都給他停權我跟委員報告就是說我們現在對於廠商的投標的資格我們現在會來跟工程會做一個探討就是說它屬於中科院自辦的這個部分而不是屬於被停權的這個部分我們可不可以在我們另外國防部的這個部分的招標文件限制這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":422.753,"end":438.42,"text":"來進行投標然後讓他的資格標你們會被要求限制嗎你們會被要求限制所以我們要跟工程會來其實還有另外一個喔這個是你剛剛講他是中科院的黑名單另外一個已經被起訴的案子在10月份繼續讓他得標這個有沒有問題一個被起訴的案件"},{"start":443.809,"end":463.255,"text":"這也是瘋疫公司 這就是委員講的瘋疫就瘋疫啊 是的 是的 瘋疫是啊 所以有沒有問題 所以你們現在 你現在是怎樣 就是我們而且在去年 去年我們都有媒體披露委員開記者會 委員質詢 然後你們說會管制 管制成這個樣子"},{"start":464.54,"end":483.943,"text":"所以跟委員報告我想我會請你們立刻防堵好嗎立刻檢討可不可以我現在就是在檢討這個案子然後相關的資格標有沒有構成他不能夠連資格標都不能夠來有符合這個資格根本的"},{"start":484.784,"end":493.291,"text":"不能夠來進行投標你的意思是說中科院跟你國防部不是一家的啦中科院都已經是據網的名單然後你們國防部還覺得把三軍都包給他相關的其他機關如果是屬於採購法所訂定的然後已經被納入停權廠商的這個部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":504.039,"end":507.283,"text":"現在的問題是中科院他並不是按照採購法那這沒有按照採購法的這個部分我們除了就呂業忠案件還有有關最有利標的都把它納入他不能夠決標的不能夠來DROP這個標案也對呂業忠案件加強督促以外關於其他的最低標的這個部分他能不能是"},{"start":524.862,"end":530.646,"text":"進入這個資格都沒有我會盡速的來進行這個檢討我很少看到你一直跳針這也代表你自己也覺得這個程序是怪怪的啦很奇怪所以請你們盡速的把這個漏洞給補起來好不好所以我們來跟工程會來確認不要再發生這樣的事情這樣子很扯啦大家會覺得這個瘋疫後台到底是有多大好不好"},{"start":553.209,"end":562.349,"text":"我想應該沒有沒有對我們來講沒有這樣的困擾那怎麼可以漏洞可以可以鑽那麼多然後還可以得那麼多的案子呢好不好我們盡數立刻檢討好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1d68b01cfc2e39e967119a7747a4c5c6c45c75d439e1a44ec14d49caf4f3f18ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:28:14 - 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請石部長請中廳長然後法務部檢察司張司長還有李副署長部長辛苦了有一句話說亂世用重點亂世用重點下一句是什麼"},{"start":27.666,"end":43.579,"text":"我已經寫在上面了攻心才是上策亂世用重點是不是有絕對的效益我剛剛正從司法法治委員會氣喘吁吁的趕來因為司法法治委員會今天有個主題"},{"start":44.58,"end":69.9,"text":"就是防治詐騙其實是全民共識甚至詐騙的犯罪是全球的公敵全球都在面對這個嚴峻的司法案件的挑戰我們要有效的去前端預防跟後端的懲治但是如果用邊形啊今天司法法治委員會的主題是說要不要學新加坡把詐騙也納入邊形"},{"start":72.923,"end":100.942,"text":"來執行我剛剛秀了一個PVT新加坡用邊形現在是要擴大把詐騙納入邊形台灣是不是要學是今天有立委的倡議但是我們來看新加坡這個國家他用邊形很久邊形這個制度從英國殖民時期留下來或者是一些回教國家他們有他們宗教的因素他們持續沿用現在的先進國家是很少在使用因為他違反了國際的人權公約"},{"start":102.023,"end":129.796,"text":"但是如果說邊形是有用的話其實新加坡在國際的治安安全數安全評比裡頭其實台灣的成績是優於新加坡的台灣第四新加坡全球第十所以我說亂世用重點有用嗎或是甚至因此在要趕快懲罰犯罪的前提之下就去亂世用亂點我認為讓人權走回頭路這是不應該的"},{"start":131.056,"end":145.601,"text":"所以我從司法法治委員會這個時空跳到這裡來當然我們今天在衛華委員會討論的是科技設備的監控要不要擴大用在防治家暴的案例我認為當然都有同樣的面向我們要一起去思考"},{"start":146.341,"end":161.368,"text":"乱世用重点有效吗公心才是上策有效的诊断犯罪者的心理有效的在前端预防才是我们讨论政策更严谨更系统性的一个切入点本期是这样认为下一页"},{"start":162.268,"end":177.035,"text":"所以說我們來看看大家都防治家暴家暴法到今年應該是27年嗎所以呢你們前陣子也開了一個擴大的跨部會會議希望能夠更精進相關的作為那防治家暴"},{"start":177.975,"end":193.673,"text":"我在司法法治委員會也提過很多次事前的防範應當優於事後的重罰或者是兩者要並重不能夠簡化為某一端比較重要天平要保持平衡甚至我認為前端的預防更為重要"},{"start":194.554,"end":212.791,"text":"那我們以保護令這件事情我們對不起我們先來講這個家暴案類法務部或是司法院在這裡家暴這10年的案件的統計裁定人數如果我有誤你們可以糾正有罪判決是68%"},{"start":215.473,"end":235.044,"text":"而有罪判決當中是判拘役就是相對比較輕的是佔了41%左右6個月以下刑期16%6個月以上比較重的是8.83%另外還有無罪跟不受理不受理還高達27%換言之以這個具體的統計數字告訴我們"},{"start":241.528,"end":266.763,"text":"家暴大家深厚誤覺但是以判決的結果告訴我們他多數不會是到很重很重很危險的重要重大的傷害所以這是用判刑的結果來說當然有極端個案也就是我們今天大家討論土城的個案那真的是讓大家非常的痛心疾首我們的保護令就差那個最後一步"},{"start":267.683,"end":295.702,"text":"但是我們在看待所有的案件都還是要回到憲法的比例原則我們還是要符合罪行相當的原則我們還不還是不能去預約了適當性的原則這個目的跟手段之間我們是人權國家所以說極端個案給了我們很多的警訊警示但是也不要因為極端個案去採取了限缺周延討論的"},{"start":298.444,"end":306.591,"text":"執法的的這些approach這些方式所以說下一頁我們來看看保護令"},{"start":307.645,"end":334.457,"text":"保護令非萬能就以土城這個案例他真的不是萬能就差那最後一步但是就實際的執行保護令是相對有效的我以這位王佩玲教授也是他的這個報告是衛福部到現在你們在討論所有的保護令參採的最大宗的一個實證的研究因為他是規模比較大"},{"start":335.077,"end":359.945,"text":"追蹤的時間比較長但我要提醒石部長這是2010年的報告啊到現在為止我們需要更新的更全面的實證研究來support我們對於家暴案類的一些政策的考量這個實在太久了啦但是以目前大家參採的這個主要的報告告訴我們施暴者整體違反保護令的比例是四成"},{"start":360.865,"end":372.204,"text":"而違反保護令當中又發生了肢體暴力的比例是19%這跟國際是差不多的換言之我的解讀保護令相對有效"},{"start":373.444,"end":391.26,"text":"但是極端個案當然要慎防但是這個報告更有效的告訴我們的資訊是對於那些高風險的施暴者要強化配套這才是重中之重土城這個案例就是高風險的施暴者就是他有犯罪前科他有精神疾病"},{"start":392.06,"end":407.382,"text":"對於被害人他施以曾經是性暴力脅迫控制跟跟蹤等等這些高風險的這些人你相對可以更精準的去鎖定他這才是我們該去下手的地方下一頁時間到了所以我"},{"start":408.163,"end":423.492,"text":"最後給石部長統合回應也就是我對於啟動科技設備的監控從過去我們是犯罪保全證據保全的那一個方法要擴大到前端的保護加害者我認為權衡上還是要慎重"},{"start":426.914,"end":448.477,"text":"保護加害者絕對要擴大但是我認為的方法是剛剛我說的實證以及研究告訴我們鎖定這些高風險的再次施暴者才是最重要的防範的核心所以不要輕易的去讓人權走回頭路因為不只是"},{"start":449.867,"end":466.189,"text":"防範加害者再次施暴更要保護受害者他的隱私跟他的自由權限至於其他的執行要有相關的法律要件的限制執行層面到底是衛福部可以做還是警政署來當家還是法務部還是司法院"},{"start":466.75,"end":484.652,"text":"到現在末中已是所以我很謝謝主席我聽說應當會有公聽會在周延的討論那我請部長統和的回應一下我剛剛的評論我們對於高風險者的管控如何有效的精準的target這些人"},{"start":485.693,"end":511.773,"text":"跟委員這個很謝謝委員的指教那確實在這個我們為什麼需要點時間再來這個這個立法因為這個立法的過程一定要考慮到比例原則他的必要性適當性跟橫平性原則一定要遵守而且還要考量到實務上的執行性可行性怎麼樣所以我們在後續的這個修法的過程當中都會秉持這個原則來審慎的研議"},{"start":513.454,"end":531.909,"text":"特別是涉及到影響到人民權益那我剛剛講的高風險的這一群人的有效的防範是你們現在就能做而且應該優先做的我們現在針對的也是這樣我們現在在做的就是先針對在評估的時候那個高風險的評估要讓他能夠更精確更準確的可以"},{"start":532.609,"end":558.305,"text":"及早的去辨識出那個高風險的個案然後去針對這些去強化不論是強化暫時性保護就是不漏接辨識出這些人存在於哪裡他的行動然後有效的保護加害人我認為這樣問題釐清下來相對執行面就有比較清楚的方向好時間有限那我非常期待後續的公聽會我也會踴躍的參加謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了謝謝吳世耀我有發言"},{"start":561.965,"end":561.985,"text":"有請"}]}},{"id":"165605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1fd5e54b5c6334e870799e8a58cec5c3e45c75d439e1a44ec4cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:16:28 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謝謝主席喔那先請我們石部長還有我們警政署副署長請石部長跟李副署長"},{"start":24.335,"end":51.887,"text":"土葛委員好好 謝謝部長那我先請問一下我們警政署我們李副署長我們警察是我們家暴防治法裡面的裡面的算是執法防治人員嗎是的那我請問一下那如果像我們執行家暴的這些防治人員如果沒有在24小時之內通報當地主管機關那這樣是不是有處分的問題"},{"start":53.275,"end":67.398,"text":"跟委員報告 警政署對於家暴案件的處理都定有相關的SOP如果沒有在實現內通知相關的單位的話那依照規定是有處罰的 處分 要處分"},{"start":68.695,"end":90.906,"text":"據我了解好像是會罰款就是6000元以上3萬元以下那我們看一下我們在110年我們看一下這個圖在110年到113年這段時間你看我們從民國87年開始實施到現在已經有27年那我們看了一下"},{"start":94.067,"end":117.22,"text":"110年到113年這一段期間有8件沒有在24小時之內通報這8件裡面就有5件是我們警察在知悉有疑似家暴事件可是並沒有在24小時之內提出那這一部分我們是不是警政署這一部分沒有再加強因為"},{"start":118.2,"end":145.863,"text":"我們要知道如果這個延誤通報萬一發生家暴事件讓我們這些受害人受到身體受到傷害甚至生命受到影響那這一部分警政署有沒有什麼方式說讓這個事情能夠降低那有發生這樣子的問題如果真的因為你延誤通報那讓我們受害者遭受到這些迫害那警政署要怎麼負責"},{"start":147.303,"end":163.769,"text":"剛剛委員報告警政署針對這個發生的個案一定會做個案的案例那這些案例呢都會透過我們的長訓或者各種有關婦幼相關的訓練會做這個案例的檢討另外呢就是除了"},{"start":164.889,"end":190.985,"text":"處理的同仁他除了接受行政的罰款以外他還要另外接受行政處分那所以在整個通報的這個紀律的部分警政署都是持續在做要求那也可以從這些案件來看我們目前統計的趨勢是每年都在下降也就是說這個受理報案的員警他們有依規定通報的部分我們都有相關的統計資料也在做改進當中"},{"start":191.445,"end":218.127,"text":"所以希望警政署也去了解一下為什麼實施二十幾年居然還是這個事情還是會有那你因為你延誤通報造成這些受害者萬一真的發生身體受到傷害或者生命送到危險這不是警政署去罰錢就能夠解決的問題所以我希望還是要加強來宣導來輔導然後告知我們這些執法人員是的 沒問題 這個我們會持續加強"},{"start":218.587,"end":242.655,"text":"好 那也請問一下部長那剛剛我們有提到你看87年時事到現在我們這三年有八件然後我們發現這八件裡面有五件都在高雄那你們有瞭解說為什麼高雄這部分的比例是比較偏高而且據我們瞭解他罰六千到三萬元當然我們知道這個"},{"start":244.255,"end":263.528,"text":"這個處罰罰錢它只是一個手段並不是我們的目的那我們看高雄每次都罰六千結果罰六千它這個層出不窮結果彰化一次罰兩萬多塊結果發生以後就沒有再發生這是不是跟處罰太輕是不是有關係"},{"start":266.162,"end":281.91,"text":"跟委員報告我們會再進一步的了解這高雄市他在這個執行上的一些考量是什麼那我們會來強化這個跨縣市之間對於這種違反規定的裁罰的一致性來做一個共識這樣"},{"start":283.27,"end":305.457,"text":"對 今天會提出就是希望我們要如何去督促畢竟這個已經14 20幾年了那雖然好像是有下降可是我覺得這24小時內通報是應該做得到的並沒有什麼技術上面的困難可能是宣導不夠還是我們執行人員對這一方面的"},{"start":307.237,"end":318.381,"text":"對這方面的重視因為你一定要知道可能其中一件延後通報造成一個不可挽回的事情這都不是我們願意見到的好 這我們強化這個溝通"},{"start":320.919,"end":343.203,"text":"好 那我再請問一下 這可能要請我們司法院我們在法官或檢察官要求完成加害人處遇計畫可是他卻拒絕報到我們根據衛福部有統計這三年有高達2231個家暴的加害人"},{"start":343.964,"end":351.8,"text":"他拒絕完成儲育計畫那針對這部分如果加害人拒絕完成有沒有什麼處分"},{"start":355.835,"end":384.91,"text":"報告委員 花了保護令以後那這個效率是等同不依規定去執行這個處理計畫是違反保護令罪就是屬於要移送檢察官偵辦那可是據衛福部統計有2231個家暴 加害人他拒絕報到那我們真正事實上有起訴的有多少"},{"start":392.181,"end":416.725,"text":"就我們事務上了解的確有一些是這個違反保護令之後移送然後要做起訴那在這個偵查階段還有審判階段法官或檢察官認為說在執行的程序行事程序上面還有一些瑕疵也就是說那你的送達以及他知不知道這些部分好像還有一些可以補足所以因此他沒有"},{"start":417.585,"end":438.007,"text":"進行所謂的裁定或者是做處分我想這個部分的確在溝通上面有時候將來整個配套上面可以再來做精進所以當然我們知道可能法院在審理這些案件它有它很多面向的考量當然它可能主觀認為說它可能不是故意的"},{"start":438.547,"end":467.006,"text":"但是我們現在重點就是說我們儲育計畫目的就是要讓加害人接受輔導接受治療那可是你看這三年居然就有兩千多個那我們衛福部主管單位有沒有想過怎麼樣去怎麼樣子去降低這一部分為什麼加害人拒絕接受儲育計畫這個比例人數這麼的多是不是衛福部還有司法單位有沒有什麼方法"},{"start":467.446,"end":489.68,"text":"怎麼樣來去降低我們這個部分有打算每年我們都有一個研討會 個案研討會那在個案研討會上面我們把這個議題當作一個主要的議題找相關網絡大家來做一些討論包括我們執行保護令的加寒處理計畫的縣市政府"},{"start":490.28,"end":519.014,"text":"還有這些機構還有我們的司法院以及加防中心我們整體來做一些討論看看有沒有一些精進的方式包括執行的方式有沒有做一些調整對啊 雖然說這2000多個很多他未必起訴違反保護令但是我們真的一定要想辦法怎麼樣去降低他為什麼會去拒絕做這個儲育計畫我們應該要提出一個實際怎麼樣去精進改善的方式"},{"start":521.075,"end":547.73,"text":"我們再來跟我們整個網絡討論一下提出更精進的方法我希望後面我們衛福部能夠針對這部分提出一些改善的計畫好我們來協調大家一起來好那我再請問一下部長在113年家暴事件通報案件你看多達22萬多件那受庇護協助的人數有8000多人那隨行子女有600多人那"},{"start":548.81,"end":573.209,"text":"據我們了解我們看到這個縣市政府應該要提供庇護宅但是我們看衛福部這些資料目前我們22個縣市只有14個縣市有中長期的庇護宅那也就是說有8個縣市是完全沒有的那這一部分我們有沒有改善計畫預計多久能夠完成部件全台"},{"start":573.909,"end":602.23,"text":"跟委員說明有緊急的庇護所這大概都比較充足啦緊急的這個是短期的那至於中長期的確實不是每個縣市都有所以我們已經有請這個各縣市政府來協助那麼增加這個中長期的庇護所的這個因為這個不夠普及的話就會造成執行上要離家不方便等等這些會來改善"},{"start":603.368,"end":617.202,"text":"对啊我们希望说我们卫福部还是提出个计划你至少在每个县市都要有一个中长期的屁股好这部分我们请卫福部尽快来演绎看怎么去加强改善好谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1151f90ff844c3c567e24dce8f91e16ee45c75d439e1a44ecb63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:52:26 - 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對不起 金融 對 金管會那我們銀行局的局長有在嗎童局長好 請局長"},{"start":87.049,"end":113.471,"text":"好 謝謝 同學好 謝謝本席最近 我想您這邊應該也都有收到一些訊息啦 最近因為普發一萬 那麼也有一個方式就是讓民眾來利用銀行的帳戶來取 領取喔但是呢 又引發了一個越演越累的銀行帳戶無預警會那個凍結喔 那許多民眾因此就產生了一些問題 那"},{"start":115.952,"end":135.678,"text":"這個問題請你們多加注意因為其實很多民眾其實沒有設詐但是因為銀行導入了AI的風險控制模型過於敏感結果被列為預防性凍結的對象結果導致不能提款不能轉帳然後生活會因此而完全停擺結果呢銀行又常常把這樣的風險的責任丟給民眾那把負擔也丟給民眾"},{"start":140.86,"end":166.286,"text":"這樣子的制度是不是走偏也應該開始做一些處理跟調整本席這邊舉幾個例子有個行業叫外送員那麼他常常因為多筆的這個小額的收入結果竟然遭凍結結果兩週不能提款結果為了付房租差點去借高利貸你們雖然聽起來很離譜可是小市民的生活就是這樣很多時候那個時間是不容一點點差異那個毫秒的差異"},{"start":168.886,"end":175.467,"text":"另外還有一些民眾跟朋友聚餐在分帳然後社團的小額的匯款總額不到五萬塊結果也被當成疑似人頭帳戶有一些長者領取敬老金而開戶因為半年前沒有動用存款結果又被郵局來凍結有一些家屬繼承了五百萬帳戶遭凍結了八個月結果又導致醫藥費 商場費也領不出來"},{"start":198.032,"end":214.325,"text":"那麼銀行的櫃台也常常出現民眾會錢給小孩的學費結果因此也會顯示異常那這樣子的金融體系為了防弊結果搞了半天民眾便利成為這樣子的一個成本這樣子是不是有點矯枉過正"},{"start":215.766,"end":230.972,"text":"所以目前銀行導入的一些AI模型將快進快出或者是多比的小額視為高風險但是有一些職業像外送員網拍或短租的一些弱勢族群的典型的金流就導致"},{"start":231.932,"end":250.925,"text":"人民生活的一個困難所以有一些警戒人士其實也警告那個銀行如果管太嚴那這些弱勢族群就被迫要去跟地下金融機構來借錢反而助長了高利貸的一個的事業那也有一些洗錢的疑慮因此本席在這邊要談的是那麼銀行房價是不是過度嚴苛"},{"start":254.808,"end":269.287,"text":"結果產生了一種新的風險那本席要請教你們是不是有盤點金管會是不是有盤點各家銀行目前導入AI風險的模型那你們有沒有來要求銀行來調整一下預防性凍結的一個標準"},{"start":270.709,"end":294.714,"text":"然後將賬戶限制處分的範圍更聚焦在真正可能的詐騙犯而不是日常金融往來的民眾目前每家銀行的標準差異也很大民眾沒有辦法知道金管委員你們是認為這樣合理嗎第二個部分是民眾如果要解鎖賬戶因為已經造成大家生活的麻煩結果銀行端還要求提供金流的來源"},{"start":295.194,"end":301.756,"text":"那從生活費到聚餐到社團的贊助都要舉證那麼經管會你們是不是認為這樣舉證其實對民眾來講有過度負擔變成銀行將打詐的責任轉嫁給民眾所以第三個是那目前相關銀行凍結了民眾的這個帳戶"},{"start":316.181,"end":330.227,"text":"那救濟的機制是怎麼樣呢那最後一個是那你們是不是要要求銀行來重新評估那麼AI模型對於弱勢族群的一個歧視那目前的交易模式推斷打擊其實有點過廣"},{"start":331.107,"end":355.863,"text":"那我们刚才讲到的外送员长者小商家只是金融体系的一般使用者他们不是诈团成员也相对弱势打诈是必要但是打错对象就会变成伤害那助长其他类型的犯罪目前银行的AI不是智慧侦测看起来像是全面扫射结果防诈变成了防民风险控管结果变成了老民"},{"start":356.844,"end":379.074,"text":"那您的看法謝謝委員關心這個議題那這個案件最主要的背景是因為銀行的警示賬戶一直不斷的飆升從111年開始每一個月大概平均增加的警示賬戶大概有2000到3000戶所以從今年開始我們有加強要求銀行必須要去正視這個問題那也提出了相關的一個指導方式那當然部分"},{"start":379.534,"end":400.595,"text":"所以你們有針對剛才本席那個部分有啟動一些機制嗎?還是這是因為幾年來一直有這樣的情況所以你們要求他們要針對這些帳戶去做一些警示而產生了這些老民的狀況呢?各位委員包括最主要是因為警示帳戶飆升的這個議題所以我們在今年有要求金融機構必須要去強化它的風險控管"},{"start":401.616,"end":428.663,"text":"那因為有少部分的銀行他本身的警示賬戶數是比較高所以他為了要趕快降低他的這個警示賬戶數結果看起來是你們要求一些績效結果他們就趕快為了要符合這個績效結果搞得很老民應該不是說績效我們最主要是要強化銀行在偵測警示賬戶這邊的一個能力風險偵測的能力所以有少部分的銀行所以導致這樣子的狀況你們是不是可以"},{"start":429.683,"end":449.771,"text":"趕快做個處理尤其是最近普發現金這個問題才又爆出來嘛對不對就很大量的爆出來是 各位委員報告就是說我們先前有了解有少數的銀行它的確導入AI它把相關的風景的參數就是預警的參數它設的比較嚴比較敏感所以導致一些民眾的部分它就被設為預控"},{"start":451.272,"end":470.943,"text":"好的 那謝謝時間關係我這邊趕快做一個建議然後你們也趕快提出一些相關報告好不好因為現在正在發生很多被普發現金一萬塊的目前卡住了然後這個卡住不是只有卡住那一萬塊會卡住整個戶頭所以是不是這個部分能夠趕快了解做個處理第二個部分你們有沒有做一個全面的檢討你們為了解決那個警示帳戶的問題結果現在產生這個新的問題而且目前很大量然後常常衝擊的都是比較弱勢"},{"start":477.546,"end":505.352,"text":"相對弱勢的族群所以你們是不是可以在一個月內提出相關的檢討給本席我們會有書面報告給委員但是我先跟委員報告一萬塊的部分我們已經通令銀行清查沒有去涉到這一萬塊所以一定要就是如果有今天民眾因為他是這個時候我們都看到了相關的報導而且相關的反應所以這個部分如果有就麻煩你們即刻處理那不要因為這樣一個項目而導致全面的被凍結"},{"start":506.072,"end":529.16,"text":"好不好 這個我們有清查過謝謝 謝謝 本席因為時間的關係就是個案請你們趕快處理然後相關的全面性的你們為了因應的那個警示帳戶的問題而導致的其他問題也請你們做一個整體的檢討 好不好我們已經有召開會議 銀行都有採取相關的措施好 謝謝 那接下來本席 請速發部 調查局 警政署 打詐指揮中心指揮官的代表"},{"start":534.656,"end":562.926,"text":"接下來本席要談的是這個AI生成的詐騙廣告現在非常的泛亂然後以假亂真的取材已經成為新型的國安問題我想各位應該都同意吧那麼目前我們你們經常拿這個各單位經常拿出相關的統計數據然後看起來好像是做得OK但事實上民眾感受不到然後就如同剛才本席所講的今天我們會站在這邊質詢是民意代表的職責"},{"start":564.286,"end":581.579,"text":"雖然你們可以拿一些數據來做佐證但是最重要的是民眾個案的切身感受其實是最大的一個影響所以根據165的儀表版的統計10月份平均每天要受理441件的詐騙案那麼財損大概接近2億"},{"start":585.802,"end":599.748,"text":"但是詐騙手法這其實本席在之前就知道了但是現在非常嚴重詐騙的手法已經全面跟AI技術結合那刑事局這邊也公佈四大類的假名人詐騙手法包括假名人證書"},{"start":601.149,"end":629.988,"text":"假名人賣保險品假名人投資群組那本席認為的很重要的而且很嚴重的是AI生成的偽造名人短影音那我在這邊提醒Glock的整個生成式的影片還有AI語音模型的發展已經讓詐騙廣告的擬真其實讓民眾是沒有辦法辨別的這個情況不是只有很像本人而是事實上真的像本人"},{"start":630.868,"end":656.027,"text":"所以本席其實有看過黃國昌委員館長等名人的AI身為訪談內容被作為推廣加密貨幣的平台去年陳建仁院長在受質詢的時候本席也看到有委員做的AI擬真他也幾乎都被騙過了這個就在你我身邊都可能發生我們自己都有可能碰到"},{"start":656.607,"end":684.625,"text":"好所以呢那最近呢這些東西都還在那個Thread或者是網友截取會做一些流傳那看起來也是本人聲音也是本人沒有辦法查證一下機率我們會誤信的機率非常的高所以連作家吳淡如都表示他應該是被速發目前列為全台最容易被仿冒的名人之一那我想對他來講也是不勝其老所以本席要請教各位"},{"start":685.586,"end":709.833,"text":"各部會 那請問對於AI偽造名人的這個廣告那第一個部分 速發部目前你們的措施是如何啦那目前在平台的一個強制下的機制運作的一個狀況跟跨國族群的企業合作的狀況是不是有比較暢通那還有現在詐騙的短音影音都放在Facebook我們常用嘛然後Instagram還有Straight YouTube x Twitter"},{"start":710.373,"end":737.141,"text":"TikTok那我們是不是已經跟Meta或者是Google還有TikTok這些海外的企業簽訂對偽造名人影音內容的一個合作協定蘇發布謝謝委員的質詢有關於這個就是說名人偽造的這個部分呢其實事實上我們在我們列館的這個四大業者跟七大平台裡面我們大概都已經有就是做好這樣子的一個聯繫"},{"start":738.055,"end":754.387,"text":"那並且呢就是針對這個剛剛提到這個微影音的這樣子一個部分因為如果是用AI生成的這個依照照圍條例的相關的規定其實事實上是必須要做揭露的那當然其實剛剛委員有提到說有很多他可能其實他也不大清楚"},{"start":754.807,"end":768.919,"text":"那可以透過我們的網站通報查詢網可以去做一個通報我們一旦確認以後我們就會立刻去進行下降這個問題其實真的還蠻嚴重的你知道一些長者要經過這些步驟其實也真的是還有一段距離"},{"start":770.96,"end":786.168,"text":"好 那另外我想請教一下這個調查局還有警政署目前對於這個假名人的AI詐騙有沒有專案的一個偵辦那麼它其實是一種混合型的新型態那你們有沒有針對這個部分成立這個相關的專案小組"},{"start":787.349,"end":802.405,"text":"有 我們刑事局有成立專案小組對這個部分我會主動去做搜尋那其實有人剛剛講的很有道理就是說這個都是在詐欺之前的那個源頭在廣告平台裡面的這個狀況嘛所以這個應該是所有詐騙裡面是最重要的"},{"start":802.885,"end":817.189,"text":"那每一個最新型的這些的相關的這個詐騙的AI生成的這個模式我們第一時間大概就掌握那會去做搜尋搜尋完之後會做下架停止解析那這些廣告平台如果沒有依照規定來做我們還是會移給蘇發部來做採訪"},{"start":821.65,"end":837.54,"text":"其實最終還是在這個整個的一個網路廣告平台的這個自主的這個管理他們的這個部分是最重要的每次碰到這種問題那各部會就說就是警政署負責的那很多東西就都你們負責的你們在第一線其實很辛苦但是本期今天也要提的我們其實打詐是整個團隊那我們當然是會主動有專門小組會再去做這樣所以剛剛這個委員所提的這裡面的證書那個健保假名人的這些廣告或是這些生成的這些影片"},{"start":850.669,"end":874.241,"text":"感覺他們生存的這個速度都趕不上你們去查核然後下架的速度怎麼辦我們當然就是說就是像這些有一些都是跨境的投放的這個狀況那當然最重要就是網路廣告平台的這一些的業者他們要去做這一些本身的自製跟集合那有一些是今天下架完之後明天再變成一個不同的"},{"start":874.821,"end":893.75,"text":"已經是一個還蠻無法自治跟自律的一個所以你可以看到就像比如講像我可以公開講那個Meta的這個或者是這些那個FB的這些狀況是最嚴重的所以其實現在速度那麼快我們如果還停留在這個平台要自治然後民眾自己要小心那這個已經有詐謗條例可以去做規範跟處罰"},{"start":894.89,"end":910.145,"text":"對我們來講都是法然後都是條例但對民眾來講就是生活我們怎麼樣過得簡單一點在我們當有這麼多技術這麼多科技這麼多平台協助的情況下還有這麼多部會的參與結果大家生活得越來越辛苦好了我們知道警政署是很辛苦"},{"start":911.466,"end":927.539,"text":"各部會 跟這些主題 其實跟大家都有關不管是前段 中段 後段 我想在你們的經驗裡面 應該都有很多處理的經驗在這個經驗裡面 我認為應該有更積極的一些作為我們知道警政署很辛苦 本席問的很多的問題"},{"start":928.3,"end":952.126,"text":"到最後要馬衛福部負責要馬警政署負責那不好意思法務部相關的你們應該有一些經驗所以在跨平台處理的時候我覺得應該要整體連通然後速度跑得比犯罪快一點這樣我們就不會一直在後面追趕好謝謝警政署啦我最後講一下就是這個基本上就是司法院跟那個法務部謝謝那個沒有相關的就請回"},{"start":953.257,"end":969.704,"text":"那我接下來談的是詐騙案的這個爆量然後跟第一線人員的這個問題那很快那麻煩各位請回那司法院法務部我們請相關的代表這邊還是來提一下本席關心很久了每一次都提就是司法院第一線人員的處境"},{"start":971.144,"end":976.405,"text":"我們也知道大家現在面臨最多的就是詐騙案整個司法體系已經超載了不僅是承辦人員的人力不足制度面本身也很難去因應這樣結構性的問題本席也提出一些建議你們可不可以在程序上做一些調整比如說減輕司法人員的負擔有沒有可能 例如"},{"start":994.99,"end":1009.941,"text":"擴大認罪協商制度的適用範圍可以減少除外的範圍擴大可協商的範圍這個部分是不是就可以制度性的或結構性的減輕第一線人員的一些負擔"},{"start":1011.523,"end":1032.123,"text":"因為詐騙案每年都超過數十數萬 十數萬件對司法的能量其實蠻耗費的所以目前整體的刑案量就是詐騙的刑案量非常大第一線檢察官 書記官 法官都過勞但是我們目前沒有辦法直接處理這些很快的處理這些問題"},{"start":1033.164,"end":1062.077,"text":"所以有沒有可能本席這邊建議啦對於放寬認罪協商的一個程序可以用程序改革來減輕司法的一個負擔然後來減輕第一線人員我們知道我們常常在增聘人員但是是不是可以研議看看讓這個證據明確而且犯罪樣態非常清楚的犯罪可以更彈性來運用本席上面所講的一些程序檢疫處理的這個方法呢你們是不是可以研議呢"},{"start":1065.517,"end":1080.2,"text":"現在委員關心這個議題我關於司法人員的負擔部分我們非常非常的沉重本席每一次都會提這個那今天就提出這樣一個可能的方式在法制上我們就像關於詐欺案件的部分我們就擴大所謂的獨任審判的範圍把原先需要合議的案件把它減少讓獨任的審判案件把它擴大到所有的詐欺案件都可以獨任審判"},{"start":1090.163,"end":1111.1,"text":"那這部分我們也經過法務部這邊也有同意那邊我們新的那個詐毀條例已經有做類似的修正那把人解放出來 把何義廷原先綁三個法官來審理之後 變成獨任法官就要審理至於協商的部分 我們也有在注意到這個是原先他有做一個除外規定就是死刑無期徒刑三年以上有期徒刑把他除外我們希望人"},{"start":1112.381,"end":1127.049,"text":"底線 門檻的部分把它變成最重本稅最新本期改成五年以上的話可以擴大協商的範圍這是時間關係啦你們是把相關報告送到本期的辦公室那本期也是要檢視一下我們對整個國際的趨勢在你們這些方法上有沒有符合一個國際這個比較相對彈性而且對於人權也是有一些關注跟保護的一個方向好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":1143.621,"end":1143.802,"text":"謝謝林委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}