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首先介紹專家 學者和出席委員和政府機關的代表張教授鳳甲大學謝謝"},{"start":1982.955,"end":2007.265,"text":"我們仁勇法律事務所劉律師國立政治大學江教授助理教授主任駐在服務商業同業工會全聯社的張理事"},{"start":2011.323,"end":2027.751,"text":"我們財產法人 崔媽媽基金會女執行長第八個 第六 台灣青年民主協會陳常務監事"},{"start":2035.58,"end":2055.587,"text":"中華民國主任住宅房東服務總會陳理事長奧爾斯都市改革組織秘書長彭秘書長我們官員麥正立委"},{"start":2065.919,"end":2090.899,"text":"跟牛喜婷立委我們主管單位有內政部董事董政務次長地政司林司長國土署吳署長行政院消防消費者保護處陳副處長"},{"start":2094.69,"end":2116.448,"text":"法務部謝參議謝參事司法院楊法官財政部複稅署吳專門委員行政院主計總署曹總專門委員"},{"start":2124.128,"end":2141.252,"text":"今天我們工廠的程序先請我們補回簡單的報告後我們跟請專家合作發言依主席簽到的順序委員會發言的時間配分成本院委員會發言請主席待定期"},{"start":2150.37,"end":2161.336,"text":"在兩位專家合作發言之後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言的時間為5分鐘最後我們要由我們的機關代表來回答"},{"start":2171.294,"end":2182.701,"text":"跟說明發言事情有定位的歧視我們到時間到的發言最早1分鐘前會安寧1聲發言時間結束後會安寧2聲現在我們請補回報告請內政部董事長報告"},{"start":2198.07,"end":2204.855,"text":"主席各位在場的委員先生女士大家好以及各位學界的代表"},{"start":2216.667,"end":2246.187,"text":"非常感謝各位委員以及各位學者專家對於本部住宅租賃業務的關心與支持也在此表達最大的感謝那麼今天貴委會召開如何健全住宅租賃市場及租賃雙方權益保障之修法公聽會本部應邀列席深感榮幸那麼以下將就今日公聽會所列的相關的討論提綱僅就本部的意見依序說明如下敬請各位委員及學者專家指教"},{"start":2247.027,"end":2272.203,"text":"首先针对住宅法第47条增订主管机关定期公布租赁市场不同物件形态屋龄之价格资讯对租金市场的影响本部表达相关的建议如下首先在为了推动租屋市场资讯透明化的状况之下本部在去识别化各自保护以及促进资金透明的原则之下"},{"start":2272.703,"end":2296.772,"text":"我們已經透過租金補貼的有效租約統計分析自去年8月開始陸陸續續公布三次全國各行政區實際租金統計資料那麼在今年7月最新公布的統計資料除了不同的租屋型態的租金總價四分位數之外也新增了不同租屋型態以及屋齡的租金統計資料"},{"start":2298.172,"end":2321.26,"text":"让租屋屋主可以作为租屋的依据条件租屋的条件作为了解实际租金价格分布的情形也可以作为判断合理租屋价格的参考同时改善租金资讯不对称的问题那么在未来本部将会持续每年定期公布两次统计资料逐步建构公开化透明之租金市场以落实租市场资讯透明化的目标"},{"start":2322.366,"end":2347.791,"text":"那么第二题有关于主管机关一住宅法以借由新办社会住宅提供租金补贴等多元方式提供民众租屋协助那如何进一步保障住宅租赁双方的权益那首先呢本部表示在目前我国租屋人数正众多那么弱势与青年租屋主普遍面临三大挑战第一个整体的租金负担沉重"},{"start":2348.591,"end":2371.41,"text":"第二取得不易以及租住品質與穩定性的不足所以住宅法在歷經106年110年以及112年的三次修法已經針對上述的困境逐步改善脆弱族群的基本居住權益那麼在執行面上本部也建構多層次的租屋支持系統在經濟上我們透過300億中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫來減輕租屋的負擔"},{"start":2374.913,"end":2402.674,"text":"那么在市场上呢我们也持续兴办我们的社会住宅之外我们也推动社宅包租贷款计划透过社宅包租贷款计划奖励辅导以及补助依照住宅法所设立之租屋服务事业成租民间住宅后再转租或者是媒合成租双方提供相关的管理服务并且规定至少40%以上的出租率给予经济或社会弱势者"},{"start":2403.314,"end":2431.053,"text":"以兼顾社会住宅的供应量以及社会的公平这样的制度有助于降低房东的管理负担同时也透过专业化的管理提升住宅的品质以及居住的稳定性整体而言本部希望透过补贴透过制度化的租屋服务以及租屋房源的供给逐步建构多元层次的一个租屋支持架构系统那么落实我们住宅法的立法精神"},{"start":2432.179,"end":2452.654,"text":"那麼第三在有關促進租屋市場朝向長期租賃關係發展協助租屋族穩定安居是否修法保障租賃住宅最短期租期同時規範續租租金漲幅對目前租屋市場可能帶來什麼樣的影響那本部做以下的說明"},{"start":2453.815,"end":2481.024,"text":"為了促進租屋市場的健全發展那麼本部在近年來制定及修正租賃市場租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例以下簡稱租賃條例以及住宅法等相關的規範那麼建構租屋市場管制法制並且陸續推動租金補貼社會住宅包租代管以及青年婚育租屋協助方案等多元租屋協助政策希望能夠透過這樣子的一個政策能夠長期穩定他的租賃關係去推動"},{"start":2483.205,"end":2502.611,"text":"能夠有效的協助我們的相關的政策達到更大的效益那麼考量目前的租屋市場多以一年期的短期租約為主所以為了保障租屋族的穩定安居避免在續租時房客遭到房東以不當的漲租或者是不合理的續租條件迫使其搬遷"},{"start":2503.491,"end":2522.28,"text":"或放棄合法租屋權利等等的形式的發生所以本部規劃朝向保障三年租期以及限制續租租金漲幅的方向呢來推動我們租賃條例的修法希望能夠透過這樣的方式呢能夠穩定租屋主他的生活的安居那"},{"start":2523.26,"end":2549.374,"text":"有關於社會輿論有部分的社會輿論以及我們的民間團體提供所可能降低房東出租的意願那減少市場的供應或者是影響租金水準等等相關的建議或者是見解那本部也是持續跟各方在溝通也收集各方的意見我們會審慎研議相關的配套措施以兼顧房東的財產權益以及租客的居住保障"},{"start":2550.427,"end":2577.879,"text":"那麼針對有關於如何強化房客租屋合法權益的保障避免受到不良房東的侵害那本部目前希望能夠推動在現行租賃定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項裡面我們有明定房東不得於契約中約定限制房客之合法權益那當然還是有部分的房東以契約以外的行為那迫使房客放棄申請租金補貼或是遷入戶籍"},{"start":2579.58,"end":2607.406,"text":"或是申報租金費用等等應有之權利那麼為了要嚇止這樣子指類不當的行為那麼本部規劃在修法的時候我們要明定房東不得以任何形式來禁止房客申請租金補貼 簽入戶籍或是申報租金費用等合法權益違反者其約定無效之外我們並將訂定罰則規定以確保房客租房之權益避免遭受不當之侵害"},{"start":2608.266,"end":2625.88,"text":"那对于不良房客恶意租屋的行为我们又要如何兼顾房东的正当权益保障那么在不良房客的租屋行为里面呢我们发现有多种的模式所以我们根据这样的相关的不同的形态本部规划修法增订以下的配套措施"},{"start":2626.4,"end":2653.038,"text":"包括增订不良房客下车条款也就是说我们为了防止恶意租屋骑行的发生如果有房客屡屡发生恶意欠缴房租或是从事吸毒或其他非法的活动甚至有老龄妨碍安宁秩序等等的情形房东得依法提前终止租约不受三年租期的保障限制同时我们也希望能够强化公正强制执行制度"},{"start":2657.281,"end":2673.898,"text":"以符合法定終止租約的這個案的條件但是他卻拒絕搬遷的這樣的情形我們要修法來明定經過公正之租約可以進一公正法申請法院強制執行以縮短訴訟的時程同時也減輕房東訴訟的負擔"},{"start":2676.46,"end":2700.908,"text":"所以重上所述本部会积极收集社会各界的意见那么在保障租屋稳定兼顾租赁双方的权益以及健全租赁市场的原则之下我们精进我们相关的法治的配套相关的法治以及配套的措施希望能够达到房客安心住房东安心租的目标以上的说明敬请各位委员及学者专家给我们指教谢谢"},{"start":2704.668,"end":2719.657,"text":"謝謝我們感謝董事的說明在這裡我們接下去請專家的學者看見我們這裡第一位張教授宏佳大學"},{"start":2734.99,"end":2764.078,"text":"主席各位委員專家學者還有關心這個議題的在現場的每一位大家好大家午安我是馮雅大學土木工程學系的張志源教授那從事社會住宅的這個議題產學投入也超過了10年那目前我自己也是包租代管的愛心房東所以其實今天也有一些切身的經驗可以來做分享那很榮幸有這個機會來到立法院藉由這一次的公聽會來發表跟分享一下自己在"},{"start":2764.761,"end":2792.132,"text":"健全这个租赁市场以及保障房东房客双方权益的修法的公听会见解那其实有五个议题那我们从第一个议题来看的话其实针对公布租赁市场不同物件形态跟这个屋龄价格资讯这些对市场的租金有没有影响这件事其实租金的这个公开透明让大家可以租的安心我觉得是一件值得去支持的事情"},{"start":2792.85,"end":2821.529,"text":"其实我们以前在买房子当还没有实价登录的时候其实我们经常在说根本不晓得价钱是多少都在玩真心话大考验的这样的游戏其实很不舒服的所以不透明的争议其实很多你看我们的消费里面到夜市去如果那个价格不标或者是说讲得不够清楚要么就买到很贵的水果要么就买到很贵的卤味所以让整个你看这个大家的信心就会去崩盘所以如果买房也都透明了"},{"start":2822.54,"end":2850.864,"text":"为什么租屋不能透明所以其实租赁的这个实价登录的这种讯息的揭露跟更详细的揭露这个我是非常支持的那大家都清楚我们现在在买车很简单那台车是多少钱那个上下range就是不大那我现在买房它又比较不容易了现在租房的判断又更不容易了所以其实在这种市场如果透明我觉得民众自然就会去选择可负担的成交价格"},{"start":2851.257,"end":2881.06,"text":"因為高的價格跟低的價格都有他自己的消費段所以其實你不用刻意的去擔心那民眾也不是傻瓜啦因為其實只要有客觀的參考標準跟依據自然他們就會去找到可負擔的房源那資訊如果越完整其實租金市場的哄抬就越不容易所以其實我自己也是參加包租貸款的愛心房東像我就覺得交給包租貸款其實我比較不用費心那再來我比較在意的是"},{"start":2881.61,"end":2905.207,"text":"续约率就是不要我一直在找房客其实我的租金是中断的如果它是稳定的这样一直租下去的话其实我的总收入才是比较多的总收入所以其实房东如果有千百种奇怪的想法要涨房租终归还是要到市场能不能接受所以资讯的透明那我觉得市场自己就会去判断所以其实我建议政府还是要"},{"start":2905.745,"end":2933.359,"text":"定期甚至更密集的去公布不同地區房型無零條件的相關的房價的實價登錄的訊息那當然沒有100分的方案如果租金市場短期內會有影響我認為是輕微跟短暫的所以這些相關推動的配套細節因為房價的實價登錄已經有很多經驗了租金這個部分我覺得也可以參考來優化所以這個議題上我覺得是這樣的一個表達那另外其實在"},{"start":2934.878,"end":2963.6,"text":"第二個議題我們主管機關依照這個住宅法新辦社會住宅提供租金補貼這些方案怎麼進一步的保障租賃雙方權益其實我們在支持百萬家庭租屋政府其實設了三支箭第一支箭就是興建社會住宅我們現在看到全國都在蓋那也很多都已經在進駐使用第二個就是租金補貼第三個就是比較像我們今天談好的議題是包住貸款包住貸款的部分那其實社會住宅已經供不應求了"},{"start":2964.102,"end":2989.703,"text":"所以其實大家都很清楚民眾很需要這個方向還是對的然後呢我們現在擴大租補已經超過87萬戶了申請戶數超過100萬戶所以政府其實也已經加惠很多這種支持很多租屋家庭那現在的包租貸款的契約當然已經超過有效契約超過10萬戶了那這整個慢慢的從法規跟很多的配套制度也開始在做法尊化推動的我覺得是還蠻好的"},{"start":2990.922,"end":3017.921,"text":"但是还是有一些租赁的争议问题很多,比如说租金、押金、修缮责任、契约条款。我自己其实我也很害怕遇到租霸或是恶房客,可恶的那个恶,恶房客。所以其实我认为找包租贷款来帮忙,其实是比较省事有保障。但是在这个经验里面我也发现,这个定型化的契约跟契约公正这两件事,对我们这种房东其实是很重要的。"},{"start":3018.365,"end":3043.91,"text":"所以其實我每一次我也都會去做這個契約公正那它就會過濾掉一些比較奇奇怪怪的問題那所以其實強化落實這個住宅租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項以及契約公正這件事情我覺得是相當相當的一個重要另外一個是租屋歧視的問題有很多人其實是租不到房子的不管是社會住宅還是說在我們一般的傳統市場"},{"start":3044.864,"end":3061.173,"text":"所以這個被歧視的這種人比如說獨居老人高齡長者小孩多的家庭外籍人士養寵物的租客這些慢慢這些被歧視的人未來怎麼去稍微保護他們所以這個部分其實也是值得探討的那另外就是說"},{"start":3063.588,"end":3092.601,"text":"長租三年跟限制租金漲幅這件事是第三個議題這個部分限制長租跟租金漲幅最直接我的感覺就是房東的反射動作就是先漲租金再說其實比如說我也是包租代管的參與房東我的長租的租金大概是市場的五折我租給人家然後短租的代管的租金因為有兩間一間包租一間代管短租大概在八折長租的投報率大概在一趴"},{"start":3093.069,"end":3117.782,"text":"比定存還差然後普遍市場大概是2%到3%國外大概是5%到10%那所以呢最近我也聽到這種要三年然後還要現漲房租我都已經租那麼便宜了還要再限制喔其實我也在想那我該不該也要漲房租啊我現在是壓抑自己的理性說就不要再漲房租啦就應該這樣去支持這些弱勢就好了可是我也很害怕這個法一下去"},{"start":3118.775,"end":3146.91,"text":"我不先漲我以後就我根本會越離越遠我會越虧越大所以其實自由市場其實不要去過度干預有喜歡他租的比較合理的租的比較低的他也可以很安心的去像我這樣子去把它租掉所以其實市場越透明越好那越不要限制越好那比如說我們說如果說用很多的政府統計數據然後就說我去做調整各位想一想我們經常在電視看到"},{"start":3148.132,"end":3177.397,"text":"所得不管叫4萬6萬很多人都說我根本沒有那個平均的4萬6萬比如說物價指數根本就不是很高可是大家都覺得物價已經漲很高了8分鐘嗎還有1分鐘好所以其實如果說真的要要這個試辦退萬步言如果如果如果真的要辦的話我建議小規模的試辦然後呢選區域就好了然後兩三年後看成效再說不要一次就大規模的辦我覺得"},{"start":3177.847,"end":3206.682,"text":"可能民眾還沒有為盟其利先深受其害第四跟第五個問題其實是相同的問題就是房東跟房客怎麼互相保障的問題兩個可能都是受害者我歸納了兩個落實五個建議第一個落實租賃住宅市場發展跟管理條例的法遵事項的稽查跟罰則第二個落實定型化契約跟契約公正這個部分很重要那五個推動呢第一個"},{"start":3207.594,"end":3216.307,"text":"建議推動租金時下登入更透明的機制第二個建議研擬給愛心房東更有感的長租鼓勵機制第三個"},{"start":3217.205,"end":3246.278,"text":"第三個是建議嚴禮受害房客緊急的安置機制房客不是房東受害房客緊急安置機制第四個是建議嚴禮受歧視租屋對象的界定那第五個最後就是二房東二房客的警示名單跟處置機制這個我覺得需要不要講黑名單啦不要講黑名單但是要掌握要有一些配套不要讓大家一直踩地雷"},{"start":3246.874,"end":3273.556,"text":"那以上的一些建議提供大家來參考感謝大家感謝張教授劉律師學者專家發言主席好主席各位長官這位前輩先進大家好今天很榮幸來這邊發言那我是劉其福律師"},{"start":3274.275,"end":3301.759,"text":"我最主要是在春花花基金會大概當了這個好幾年的義務服務律師所以對於租賃的法律有一些小小的了解那今天的五項裡面我大概就是只有針對第四跟第五啦前三項不是我的專門我就說明四跟五然後呢我會用因為我們租賃專法租賃住宅管理市場發展條例大概從100年7年6月7號成立公佈事情到現在大概將近八年的時間那我會用法院的判決角度來去"},{"start":3303.422,"end":3331.539,"text":"看看說我們的這個租賃的糾紛大概要去怎麼去處理看法院怎麼去看的這個是我們全方位基金會其實每一年都會做租賃的這些統計你可以看到聯邦滿目什麼都有人際關係都會有所以這個租賃的糾紛要處理真的是千瘡百孔所以我們就看看說那我們法院的判決大概會有什麼樣的解釋跟說明因為我們如果用租賃住宅管理市場的發展條例當關鍵字去搜尋法務部的這個判決裡面"},{"start":3333.141,"end":3353.681,"text":"從107年開始到今年的11月2號為止總共有400則的判決有牽涉到租賃專法當然有一半都是無錢戰友要去主張相當租賃不當得利真正有關的大概200則左右所以我會從這200則裡面去判斷跟分析說我們租賃條例有哪些可以再精進調整的方向"},{"start":3354.861,"end":3379.989,"text":"那其中第一個就是我個人覺得說我們的租賃法專法的體系有點稍微混亂因為我們早期我們的租賃專法一開始是有分成消費關係跟非消費關係有因約定跟因記載等等的那我們112年修完之後就變成了全面的就是推定是具有消費關係使用消保法那這樣感覺起來好像是有保護消費者可是問題是這個適用上就會有一些這個"},{"start":3381.94,"end":3410.918,"text":"不太好判斷的地方雖然我們法院的判決都已經在修法完之後都有去確定說即便是自然人那你去公居住使用就是視為消費關係那可是還是會有一些小小的問題像社會住宅社會住宅不適用租賃專法我就覺得很奇怪為什麼不適用難道政府做莊的這個當房東的就不適用租賃最主要是在第四條裡面有講到是由政府或其專責法人管理的部分是不適用"},{"start":3412.534,"end":3432.26,"text":"這個不是用租用專法的但是法院判決裡面比較少看到這一塊可能因為我們現在這個政府有很多招標出去給包租業者去做社會住宅包租貸款的這個會不會有適用這個可能我們未來在修法的時候要再考慮看看因為我們目前政府的政策就是"},{"start":3433.021,"end":3453.895,"text":"會用包租貸款去這個取代興建社會住宅所以那這個雖然有適用印記載跟不得記載是這樣但是其他的租賃專法有沒有辦法去適用這個也要再請斟酌一下那在現行的租賃專法裡面有哪些是其實是對房東比較不利的就是押金能不能抵租金這件事情"},{"start":3454.697,"end":3482.556,"text":"押金能不能抵租金其實最重要的就是說房客欠租金要欠到幾個月才能夠去這個中止訂相當期限吹告中止租約其實大家都認為說民法不是規定說就是欠租兩個月就可以嗎可是不是啊有些租屋張朗他就跑去找其告法院的時候他說不好意思我們有個土地法100條土地法100條是民法的特別法裡面講到說房客積欠租金要扣掉擔保金之後還打兩個月租金的時候"},{"start":3483.061,"end":3497.957,"text":"才可以去訂上期限最高宗旨所以變成2加2所以這個也是多數法院判決的境界像我們這裡可以看最高法院的這個判例啊等等的事實上都是目前在蘇聯法成立之前都是說如果有這個"},{"start":3498.789,"end":3523.048,"text":"房客有主張土地法100條的時候都會採行2加2的這個做法那我們實行完之後雖然我們的第三條第13項講到說什麼租賃專法的押金只擔保損害賠償行為跟處理遺留物責任看起來已經不擔保租金的起伏可是我們法院是這樣子採的嗎沒有請你看一下我們法院的多數的判決裡面"},{"start":3524.599,"end":3550.691,"text":"他都會認為說像這個理由一他說土地法呢是租賃專法的特別法明明租賃專法是比較新建怎麼會變土地法還是特別法他就說土地法要優先保護弱勢成租者所以還是可以抵還是2加2另外一個理由是這個可能這個他說押租金是擔保租金跟損害平常責任這可能還沒有去正確適用到我們新修正後的租賃專法"},{"start":3552.089,"end":3573.476,"text":"有少數見解這個我個人是比較贊同像高雄檢疫庭這個判決他就說租賃專法是在這個土地法之後而且是專門針對公居住使用的租賃住宅所以應該優先土地法可是問題是這樣子的判決在我們法院裡面還是少數這個是我們比較遺憾的所以我們認為說如果真的要定的話就要定什麼"},{"start":3574.136,"end":3598.219,"text":"定的像這樣子在第6條直接講說租金不受土地法97條上限的規定就把它明確寫清楚說清楚講明白讓我們的法院可以有一個明確的這個判決的基礎所以我們會希望說如果有要修正的話可以把租賃專法土地法跟消防法的適用關係明示他的優先順序還有沒有土地法的適用請也請一併說明那另外呢"},{"start":3600.085,"end":3622.354,"text":"這個我們還會有一個有一個比較有趣的叫做這個租賃專法第12條他這個條文裡面其實呢在立法理由裡面他是講說我們要為了讓在房客已經搬離的情況讓房東快速的拿回房子因為你知道我們這個打官司啊這個曠日廢時你看到要經過起訴啦叫裁判費一審二審還要去申請強制執行而且特別是什麼"},{"start":3623.135,"end":3642.352,"text":"現在法院 你去看官司 換他給你扣裁判費不是跟以前一樣 用公告訊息給你扣 不是喔現在都是什麼 實際上在路上 看你多少就扣多少兩千萬要出 要扣十八萬八千你說我出頭價用多少 我就要 都拿不出水了我就要扣十八萬八千 都扣喔 都扣 換他那邊扔咧這樣覺得 沒話說另外說 你想說在處刊的一件事 辦公室要你衝刊"},{"start":3650.466,"end":3674.291,"text":"他媽說有財政讓你強制執行是十八萬八千我看是困難 像弱豹子打狗所以說法院我們這個十二條當初就是要讓房東呢可以快速的拿回房子可以免去什麼訴訟費用的勞費啦然後時間的浪費可是問題是這個十二條訂得很好可是大家不敢用為什麼不敢用呢因為呢"},{"start":3675.936,"end":3692.77,"text":"你用了之後會不會有侵入住居罪會不會有強制罪會不會有竊盜罪的問題大家會怕會錯啦因為這是新的法律所以犯罪的破罪說實在也不太多我們內政部一百多百年有一個函式跟你說這是一些確認數量的程序喔 抱歉 這麼快喔"},{"start":3695.032,"end":3715.315,"text":"但是法院的判決就直接講說他就是只有限縮在房客未繼續居住的情況下才可以適用這個是法院的判決只有兩者而已所以就內政部提出來的方向我個人是蠻值得贊同因為很多的民意外面報章都說是房東對抗房客我覺得不是"},{"start":3715.765,"end":3731.953,"text":"我覺得應該是好房東對到壞壞房客好房客對壞壞房東像我們可以看到內政部最近有做什麼有做這個明年開始租金補貼只限合法建物我覺得很好淘汰一些不好的建物另外還有什麼他跟法律輔助基金會有也有這個做"},{"start":3732.533,"end":3749.066,"text":"弱勢豬民眾的這個法律輔助我覺得都是很不錯的措施最後我就講一個就是講說豬爸下車條款因為我們內政部有提一個方向說我要把期限拉到三年可是問題是三年裡面你的宿舍是辦公室要來充空"},{"start":3749.746,"end":3759.174,"text":"因為我們加速公路有工程 工程是什麼?租約到期後才能強制執行喔你選擇這個環境就是說 我要堅堅堅堅堅到三年以後或是說我要打官司 打官司要開期 要開時間啊不如我就等到三年 這樣對初途來講是一個不公平的現象啦喔所以說我剛出罷下車條款 我們在公正法第十三條那稍微專編一下 因為公正法現在就是說因為我們執行法院案件很多 都要書面 要程序審查"},{"start":3776.208,"end":3802.449,"text":"若是說我們把一些的糾紛都攬進去執行法院說實在很難處理所以我們可以考慮把一些可以書面審查的比方說欠兩個月的租金這個我們把它呢拉進去因為這個繳租金就是要匯款嘛匯款就匯款證明我們是不是可以透過公證人員來做公認證的文件的問題的這個行為呢然後把它送到執行法院讓我們的這個租霸可以有這個"},{"start":3803.873,"end":3822.846,"text":"受到這個豬爸下車條款的限制那另外我們也可以透過鼓勵有公正的房東可以用豬爸下車條款讓大家來公正讓大家讓我們的這個租賃的契約更透明讓我們房東房客都更有保障謝謝謝謝感謝劉律師現在請我們麥正委員OK"},{"start":3839.468,"end":3844.468,"text":"主席各位專家各位先進各位親愛的家人大家好"},{"start":3846.226,"end":3874.025,"text":"今天非常感谢大家来到立法院一起为台湾的租屋制度改革贡献宝贵的意见长期以来我们的租屋市场一直存在三大问题第一 资讯不透明房租 行情 要靠要有的用拆的 所以黑箱太多第二 法律保障不足"},{"start":3874.685,"end":3891.556,"text":"押金不退 臨時漲房租突然就被趕走 租屋主就無力的反抗第三 糾紛處理太慢不管是房客還是房東都求助無門"},{"start":3892.637,"end":3896.619,"text":"對於青年社會新鮮人基層勞工新住民家庭等的來說買不起房很辛苦但是已經是現實了但是大家最心痛的剛才我們的教授有說就是因為新住民他們也沒辦法去租連租屋都沒辦法安心"},{"start":3920.77,"end":3926.537,"text":"這不只是個人的困境就是台灣居住正義真正的斷層所以我們認為這次修法最關鍵的目的就是讓人家家的安心要做"},{"start":3937.908,"end":3962.727,"text":"放心這樣子那個八個字但是呢政府必須提出跟務實制度的改善第一讓租屋資訊透明化市場要有憑有據房東房科才能在公平的基礎上談就是互相怎麼去租"},{"start":3963.82,"end":3980.274,"text":"不要再靠硬去也不要再靠說看人的臉色第二讓租約關係更穩定要避免不合理的就是平房就是漲房租也要防止房客惡意"},{"start":3986.641,"end":4001.246,"text":"簽房租讓房東有保障房客能安心居住雙方都願意長期合作第三健全快速且公正的糾紛處理機制押金不退或者設備壞了誰來修租約爭議不能再拖幾個月後耗掉雙方的"},{"start":4015.944,"end":4038.437,"text":"時間與金錢一個公平有效的處理流程就是最實際對雙方的保障我們一直相信租屋市場不能靠口號更不能靠補貼撐著真正能解決問題是制度是透明是公平立法院不會"},{"start":4039.966,"end":4057.732,"text":"某一個人某一方來犧牲而是打造一個穩定合理可預期租賃環境當房東願意出租房客租得安心政府清楚掌握市場"},{"start":4058.832,"end":4082.001,"text":"才讓台灣主宰市場才會真正的健康有保障最後再次感謝所有專家學者與民間團體來參與因為有大家的聲音我們不分黨派改革才真正有力量"},{"start":4082.597,"end":4110.619,"text":"希望通過今天的討論讓大家住得安心跟住得孤單所以更實務有效的方法不要再只是理想或紙上談兵而讓我們能夠安居樂業過得安穩安心有家的感覺才能過更好的生活謝謝大家 歡迎大家感謝"},{"start":4112.278,"end":4117.799,"text":"謝謝我們感謝麥正委員我們家姜助理教授主席各位委員然後各位先進各位長官大家好我是政大地政系姜穎慧那今天的主題裡面我可能會比較針對就是租金的部分發表一下我的看法那大家都知道其實在教育健保這些相對來講住宅其實住宅是在最"},{"start":4141.904,"end":4168.873,"text":"就是市场化的一个对民众来讲的话那住宅又是大家的这个安身立命的一个基础那这几年其实在住宅法的这个慢慢慢慢这个住宅法通过之后整个的建立其实租赁的这些方向改善我相信对大家来讲对民众来讲应该都是好的所以回到第一题里面提到说住宅法第47条那目前呢有定期的针对这个租赁市场的不同物件去公布这样子的一个"},{"start":4169.335,"end":4198.744,"text":"租金的中位数的价格资讯我相信对民众来讲这是件好事它可以改善过去就是长期来讲其实租赁的这个资讯不太健全的这样的一个情况不过在现行的目前的公布方式我相信对民众来讲还是不够的过去我们会提到说有10灯你可以查10灯但是租金的资料其实10灯很少嘛那另外就是如果你查10灯也会回到说always都是拿我家旁边然后还拿最贵的来看"},{"start":4199.204,"end":4225.535,"text":"那現在有中位數公佈之後會產生另外一個狀況就是中位數公佈的大家會覺得說這跟我的情況又不太貼近因為它是一個行政區所以在這個部分我其實會建議就是不管對民眾來講又或者是對於政策接下來要逐步改進來講它都需要做更精細的分析所謂精細的分析其實是我們可以了解到如果這裡有就業需求"},{"start":4226.135,"end":4235.876,"text":"如果有就學的需求它就是一個租賃市場的熱區那在租賃市場的熱區的情況下你單純用中位數來公佈大家可能覺得"},{"start":4237.099,"end":4266.043,"text":"这个都不是我家的都不是我家的这个租金所以我觉得以目前的情况我们有定期公布可以让民众感受到政府就是现在很在意民众的需求所以他要持续公布这件事情不是有实价登录之后放上去你们自己看所以我觉得这件事情就是已经展现出我们对于这件事情的决心但是如果只停在这边可能大家就会觉得说好吧你就是做给我看但是我看不懂"},{"start":4266.423,"end":4292.292,"text":"我還是沒有辦法看所以我覺得在這部分的情況現在這個議題提到就是有公佈定期公佈對租金市場的影響我相信是一個正面一個好的效應告訴大家那但是呢再往下其實還要再往下更精細那另外其實如果扣到第三個問題提到說未來想要修法那這個修法其實是要保障租賃住宅的最短租期以及同時規範續約租金的漲幅"},{"start":4294.673,"end":4318.92,"text":"那這件事情就必須再更往下我剛剛提到的就是如果你現在只用一個中位數又或者是現在已經有提出是不是就要按照這個主計總署公佈的這個租金指數當做一個指標我相信這個其實都不夠清楚那為什麼還是不清楚其實就回到我們剛剛講的如果這附近未來有交通建設的改善那我相信這裡面的供給會變增加"},{"start":4319.5,"end":4344.128,"text":"你可能现在会觉得说有交通附近交通建设改善大家都往那边租但问题是有交通建设改善的地方其实供给也会往那边产生意思是未来可能会在那边盖更多房子其实会有新房东出现新房东出现按照目前的房地合一税还有囤房税实施下去其实房东他有这个需求"},{"start":4344.628,"end":4371.177,"text":"他会把房子放出来所以在这种情况下其实供给需求又改变了我相信这样子这些数据其实都要一起搭配着来看但是这个数据其实就变成是可能还要再花一点时间因为按照租赁专法其实之前大概是112年9月之后实价登录里面的栏位其实目前是比较贴近民众的就是他现在公布出来的这个租金的"},{"start":4371.597,"end":4386.025,"text":"这个资讯里面同时也公布了有不同的住宅形态包括套房和雅房我相信这些其实因为都是最近这几年开始改善的一下子可能要要求大家做出什么租金指数"},{"start":4386.865,"end":4403.114,"text":"可能也不太精確所以我覺得說這些事情我們要持續盯著就是主管機關要繼續改善但是是不是馬上改馬上明天就說來來來我們宣布明天我們就來做這件事情我相信會有一些可能副作用反而會產生"},{"start":4404.415,"end":4424.826,"text":"所以这也是回应到这个第三题提到目前我们其实有一些声浪就说未来接下来要修法保障这个最短周期我们可以看到这舆论上面其实两方就开始在对立了有人说好有人说不好那参考韩国的经验还有一些过去政府的经验就是过去我们也实施过这个"},{"start":4425.746,"end":4454.843,"text":"就是房屋税调税这件事情我们可以看到地方政府有些地方政府就是在一换市长的时候那个税基就马上掉下来了所以我们可以知道说一个政策好的政策其实是需要仔细的规划逐步的实施而不是今天很多人说赞成我们就来说好我们做这件事情而不顾它其实是会有副作用刚才张教授也有提到了其实从这个实际上"},{"start":4455.263,"end":4470.749,"text":"房東的經驗裡面一聽到你說你要規範我以後續約漲租金那我明天就漲我就躲避你的規範這不是張教授個人的經驗這是所有的文獻國外的經驗大家都給你"},{"start":4471.129,"end":4498.45,"text":"都跟你说那你说他是坏心人吗没有啊我今天长完之后我以后很多年我就不长书了我就又变爱心房东了我就是维持低价你怎么可以说我其实是坏人呢我觉得这件事情其实不是坏人那也会有其实我们早期为了要鼓励大家释出这个房子然后当房东所以我们会用爱心房东但现在慢慢这个名词我觉得也改变了因为"},{"start":4499.951,"end":4516.141,"text":"另外一步其實是要往下想說其實我們不能叫大家來比愛心其實我們應該要建立一個制度當房東租金高貨低有時候其實是跟租屋品質有關這件事情目前我們討論裡面就是健全住宅租賃市場這個議題我覺得比較少談的一點就是所謂的租屋品質這件事情"},{"start":4524.466,"end":4537.031,"text":"我們沒有像韓國這麼慘就是有很多人租房子是租在那個半地下室大家都看過那部電影我相信台灣真的沒有這麼糟但我們也沒有一個健全的制度規範說你當房東你是不是現在只有電費有規範了那其他其實"},{"start":4542.973,"end":4557.278,"text":"你如果是一個都沒有365天都見不得光的房間那它適合當作一個租屋的地方嗎譬如說我們接下來應該是頂加不能拿租金補貼但是我們也沒有說頂加"},{"start":4558.925,"end":4586.59,"text":"不能出租又或者是頂加在某些條件下其實才能出租那我的想法其實是在健全這個租賃市場的這一塊裡面我們關心租金另外一塊應該要關心租屋品質那租屋品質這件事情也會扣合到後面其實提到的這些租賃雙方之間的契約保障這些租賃雙方契約保障也不是只有規範的那個押金返還的二房東二房客其實還會有那個很"},{"start":4587.33,"end":4615.203,"text":"遭得租屋的那個空間那個空間也應該要透過法令制度再往下規範還有其實在租屋市場裡面這個Range很大有便宜的租金也有那個每個月可能是數十萬以上的那個租金那這種部分我們其實是不限制的未來可能都不需要仔細的規範 以上謝謝謝謝我們感謝江助理教授我們家張理事"},{"start":4622.59,"end":4647.64,"text":"大家好 我是中華民國駐定住宅服務商業同業工會全國聯合會的理事同時也是包租代管的業者 那我們呢我想今天能夠開這樣子的一個修法的會議我想首先要給我們立法院還有我們內政部一個很大的讚因為我覺得這是一個整個租屋市場往前走的一步非常重要的一步那這個時間點呢也契合的非常好因為昨天我們全聯會"},{"start":4648.584,"end":4656.119,"text":"在張榮發基金會辦了一個我們這一次一樣的我們的研討會那我們總共有200個位置各位知道嗎在48小時之內緊急關閉報名因為非常踴躍"},{"start":4661.283,"end":4687.292,"text":"全聯會所有的理事不得出席要把位置讓出來昨天司長還有科長還有專門委員都有來都知道所以我想要先探討一個事情就是我們租賃住宅的市場在哪裡七年前立法的時候我們全名叫做租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例在立法出來的時候台灣是沒有市場的因為都在桌子下面你要管什麼現在剛剛說法院所引用的這個"},{"start":4689.125,"end":4709.416,"text":"這個判例或者是引用的實價登錄這些實價登錄的資料是誰做出來的是我們業者做出來的是目前全國總共有2371家包租代管的業者登記上去的市場在這裡所以根據上面的實價登錄來做的所以你們說市場在這邊總共有多少 12萬"},{"start":4710.799,"end":4726.548,"text":"那根據內政部給的資料有100萬的租屋族其實我希望今天在立法院這邊我們只要講一件事情就好了如果台灣所有的房子都有人住那麼所有的人都有房子住現在的囤房已經來到了91萬戶"},{"start":4729.005,"end":4752.437,"text":"很可能在兩個月今年是有史以來發史照最多的時候所以很可能在明年一月我們請委員看一下可能我們囤房會超過一百五萬戶囤在那邊誰給的資料台電給的每年的六月十二月都會公佈你在六十度以下的代表什麼這個房子是好的有水有電但是你為什麼沒有六十度因為你連燈都沒有開你囤在那邊"},{"start":4754.015,"end":4777.167,"text":"囤在那裡各位我們的囤房數跟所有已經超過加戶數了所以今天目的是要在這邊好我們來講租金的漲幅我跟大家說全台北市目前我們在台北市全台北市的房東都是愛心房東為什麼沒有一個租金符合投資報酬率現在台北市的租金就拿最貴來說他投資報酬是負數的"},{"start":4779.465,"end":4807.259,"text":"都是負數的 好租金怎麼出來的今天買賣房子是從房價出來的房子越貴租金越高這個道理大家都知道你沒有限制房子買賣的價格的上限你過來限制租金的上限沒有道理他怎麼來的是高居房子來的好第二個房租怎麼來的現在剛剛說了實價登錄我告訴大家這個實價登錄都是我們業者做出來的所以你在管理這個市場嗎不對"},{"start":4809.358,"end":4834.883,"text":"內政部今天做的租金補貼310租金補貼我們是業者我也是社會住宅保護貸款的業者我自己公司就管理了三四千戶310租金補貼非常有用為什麼因為租客現在安定了搬家的次數變少了這是OK的但是租金怎麼來的今天你們有內政部有這麼多幾十萬戶的三十萬戶到五十萬戶的資料你為什麼不放到私家登錄區呢"},{"start":4837.349,"end":4861.136,"text":"然後現在的房東是怎麼去訂他的租金他的房租的是上591上樂屋網他在上面看到的價錢是什麼各位要知道你現在在591上面看到的價錢是沒有租出去的價格你租出去就不會在網路上了所以房東一直在參考租不出去的價格來制定他的房子的租金"},{"start":4862.296,"end":4879.023,"text":"所有的房東都認為他的房子是全宇宙最好的不是全台灣喔也不是全地球喔是全宇宙最好的所以他在591看到一個一萬一千塊租不出去的房子他會把他租金定在一萬兩千塊這就是租金上漲的的原因好"},{"start":4879.847,"end":4896.247,"text":"另外一個跟住宅一樣的來我們買賣市場的實價登錄做得非常的踏實因為他是管合約的是代書必須要登的所以現在所有的房仲是怎麼去定房子的價格是把實價登錄拿去給買方賣方看來你的房子現在就值這個錢"},{"start":4897.554,"end":4917.891,"text":"但是我們住宅法47條講得很清楚我們必須要怎麼樣政府必須要收集分析公佈住宅資訊你手上已經有幾十萬戶你為什麼不把它放到實價登錄去呢那我們業者是不是可以引用現在的實價登錄來告訴房東說你的房租現在應該要多少錢才是真的因為實價登錄是租出去的價格而不是只能拿591這租不出去的價格來跟房東議價對我們業者而言"},{"start":4926.01,"end":4942.536,"text":"事實上房租高跟低對我們一點關係都沒有因為我們的利潤是很單薄的我們只有10%的管理費我們希望的是什麼我們希望的是能夠長期的能夠去租所以今天內政部提出三年一約我想請問你問過租客嗎租客有需要到三年嗎你這個數據哪裡來的以我們現在做的社會住宅包租代管好了現在已經做了接近十萬戶有效合約"},{"start":4954.707,"end":4980.86,"text":"到底租超過三年的有多少趴來以我們自己家來說絕對不超過20%所以你三年怎麼來的租客有需要三年嗎好我們的地形化契約上面有得提前中止跟不得提前中止得提前中止提早一個月講沒有就不用扣押金對不對不用扣一個月如果你沒有提早講扣一個月的違約金好今天內政部你實行三年"},{"start":4982.059,"end":4989.544,"text":"他勾的叫做不得提前中止租約租了一年之後 租客要搬走 房東會說什麼請你把未來兩年的租金給我因為不得提前中止嘛所以這樣子是為什麼 你幫租客想其實你挖了一個很大的洞給租客跳他跳進去了 誰救他所有做租金上限的 訂這個的"},{"start":5006.994,"end":5032.122,"text":"通通都報在今年大家都一起修法所有幫租金加一個蓋子的全部創下有史以來最高的租金荷蘭做社會住宅150多年2025年今年是他有史以來租金漲幅最大的一年為什麼因為他在去年2024年的時候把他的租金加了一個蓋子他不相信市場反而他要市場怎麼樣相信政府這是不可能的我們是自由經濟的"},{"start":5033.379,"end":5061.499,"text":"所以應該要做什麼事情我認為應該是要把公正法第13條要把它做好剛剛劉綺夫有說得很好房租就是一兩萬塊錢的事情你怎麼去打官司所以現在大家往公正去公正最便宜三千塊四千塊就可以處理了但是13條告訴我們什麼要租約滿了你才能夠進行強制執行各位租房子是要先付錢才能住的是這樣的概念但是他欠租兩個月之後我們還要等他住滿"},{"start":5062.881,"end":5087.179,"text":"所以現在導致什麼兩押一租只出三個月他付三個月的租金他可以免費住九個月我們才能夠強制執行把他趕走所以你要怎麼橫貧對不對所有的房東都希望有租客能夠長期我們這邊續約的基本上不會再加價錢各位知道好房東難得好房客更難得啊我們在做報租代管我們管的是誰我們管的是房客"},{"start":5088.038,"end":5106.423,"text":"我們看到好房客的時候我們真的覺得 哇 很好台灣最美麗的風景是人光復鄉我們看得出來我們現在管的所有的房客99%都是好的房客你不用為了1%去加了這麼多的限制你讓這個市場沒有辦法透明沒有辦法發展才是我們最大的悲哀謝謝"},{"start":5113.373,"end":5124.668,"text":"謝謝 感謝張理事我們請委員 牛希廷發言謝謝主席這"},{"start":5127.099,"end":5145.251,"text":"今天談健全租賃市場跟租賃權益保障的修法公聽會這內政部今年在9月18號拋出租賃專法修法的這樣子的一個方向保障三年租期限制漲幅跟強化權益保障三大方向之後當然就引起了很多的關注甚至很多的爭議"},{"start":5146.175,"end":5162.604,"text":"昨天祝福全聯會也有SHOVA研討會加上今天的公聽會其實無非就是希望在這個制度的重大變革當中找到妥適的改革方向跟步調這我想不管是提高透明度租金市場透明稅制的改革釋出空屋"},{"start":5163.084,"end":5191.743,"text":"或者是租金涨幅跟保障的配套措施的设计我觉得今天大概学者专家很多都会琢磨在这个地方我就在这边就不再多赘述了但各位的这个发言的意见我们都会列为未来修法的一个参考今天我在这边丢出几个观点主要着重在这个其他的配套措施三个方向第一我觉得租赁专法如果要修正或者是相关的法令要修正的时候我们除了要考虑前面几个改革方向之外我们要考虑一下社区大楼成为现在都市的主流形态"},{"start":5192.25,"end":5216.549,"text":"因此社區管委會跟房客的關係我認為這件事情應該要被思考並行訴有效的政策方向租賃專法規範的是房東房客跟租業者三者的關係公寓大廈管理條例規範的是區分所有權人跟社區管委會之間的權利物關係房東在這個公寓大廈裡面他是區分所有權人房客缺乏他的主體性那中間衍生的爭議怎麼辦"},{"start":5218.01,"end":5243.033,"text":"管委會跟房客之間的關係成為租賃專法跟公寓大廈管理條例之中的三不管地帶我覺得這是一個很大的問題我們應該要思考一下曾經有管委會想要修改規約說什麼房客也要付這個保證金啊情人房客除了要付房東押金之外還要另外付給大廈管委會保證金成為另外一種負擔或者是租客有擾鈴的行為可是管委會沒有辦法制約因為這個人並不是區分所有權人"},{"start":5244.454,"end":5259.879,"text":"這個房東置之不理等等常常有這樣一大堆的漏洞租賃服務業者也常常要求啊管委會要在中間協調嘛管委會跟房東之間怎麼把事情給擺定喬好所以管委會跟房客的關係應該要在修法了之後一併考量相關的配套措施解決社區內部的衝突"},{"start":5261.291,"end":5280.505,"text":"第二要建立迅速有效的爭端解決機制房東最害怕遇到欠租遇到到期不辦理這是業界的常態房客最怕遇到苛扣押金或其他各種不合理的要求但只要任何大小租賃紛爭到最後只剩意圖叫法院解決剛剛我想很多學術專家都有提到這個話這個"},{"start":5282.94,"end":5305.041,"text":"進到法院訴訟大家也了解台灣的狀況耗時短則一年多則兩三年你那個爭議的權利金的大小搞不好你打官司的成本都遠遠超過這個細政的金額所以對於租賃雙方來講都是折磨也淪為雙數的局面所以如何透過修法的過程我們來建立訴訟外的紛爭解決機制其實是有其必要的"},{"start":5305.801,"end":5325.947,"text":"譬如說租賃關係、消費關係可以跟消保官申訴啊也可以調處啊也可以到調解委員會去調解可是問題啊目前現行制度的共通性都是你必須要在這個平台達成共識嘛所以我剛剛才在樓上參與黨團協商這個達成共識在當下的社會是一件非常困難的事情啊對不對所以沒有共識到最後你還是要進到訴訟嘛那進到訴訟就回到我們剛剛講了花了很長的時間解決雞毛蒜皮的事情"},{"start":5331.189,"end":5346.857,"text":"住宅租賃的糾紛叫做質輕量多金額很小 數量一堆其實某一種層面是變相司法資源的浪費所以我們是不是能夠思考比照比如說勞資爭議處理法有一個行政裁決的機制租賃市場等等這樣的一個爭議跟爭端"},{"start":5348.618,"end":5376.974,"text":"透過行政裁決的這樣的一個機制來做處理並且賦予一定的強制力讓法院的送援可以有效減少我覺得這也是可以既可以解決租賃雙方的爭議又可以減少司法資源的浪費我覺得這個乾脆要修我們就一併討論第三這剛剛我們張先生也有提到這個有關於公正的問題這也是本席非常關心的契約公正的時候其實有完整的程序公正人應該要了解請求人的爭議及真相並且清楚序名各式各樣的法律效果如果公正的內容"},{"start":5378.695,"end":5385.881,"text":"這個資訊不透明不明瞭不完備的時候都還要主動把話講清楚讓這個公正數據有絕對的公信力也才能夠讓租賃的雙方啊能夠清楚了解契約的內容並且保障租賃雙方的權益也有數據顯示啊經過公正後的租賃契約只有不到百分之二後面還是產生了這個"},{"start":5400.414,"end":5427.843,"text":"注定爭議嘛 注入這個契約糾紛所以我想契約的公正制度在預防紛爭上它也有很重要的角色那當然會衍生一定的公正費用能不能透過政府的政策來予以補貼或者是支持或者是推廣我覺得都可以討論那另外也要解決我想剛剛這個我們沒有套好但是剛剛張理事長也有提到了嘛有一個時間的問題嘛如果期限屆滿不交還你現在才可以走公正這個後續的程序嘛但提前中止租約卻沒辦法"},{"start":5428.783,"end":5455.836,"text":"所以我想在租賃專法修正的同時這個公證法的一些配套措施的一個修正讓公證的這樣的一個機制跟效果可以更穿透力這我想也是相關租賃專法在修正的時候一個重要的配套措施之一我想租賃雙方不應該是敵對關係應該是要合作關係修法除了要考量房東房客跟業者等等的核心角色之外請你顧慮到他們跟周遭利害關係人之間的互動關係我剛剛講了大廈管委會法院等等並且所以這個"},{"start":5456.916,"end":5467.767,"text":"有效的紛爭解決機制是很重要的希望這個在未來修法討論政策的時候可以一併納入討論以促進整體租賃住宅市場的健全發展 以上謝謝"},{"start":5490.447,"end":5506.745,"text":"主席以及各位委員以及在座各位前輩先進那今天就崔媽媽作為一個實務工作者以及長期關心那個租賃住宅的一個角色來跟大家做相關的一個分享好"},{"start":5509.164,"end":5534.921,"text":"那在整個國際的資料就是這個Global Property這個部分的話其實它的評比裡面整個跨國的部分台灣相較於歐陸的國家事實上早期是跟韓國一樣事實上是屬於比較像房東傾斜的這樣的一個制度那當然這個部分有待我們可能長期的改善跟調整"},{"start":5535.501,"end":5564.274,"text":"那大家也都知道就是說可能房客在租屋過程的幾個痛點跟房東的幾個痛點那房客的部分的話不外乎是租金的上漲然後租不到房子現在供需事實上有很大的問題然後他很有感的大家就沒辦法申請租補跟報稅以及糾紛沒辦法有效的處理那房客的部分很務實收不到房租沒有辦法順利拿回房子"},{"start":5564.694,"end":5590.356,"text":"那遇到猪爸的恶意行为怎么处理所以在这样的一个对策的话原来租金补贴是一个协助房客弥补租金上涨的一个工具但是在台湾的话会碰到房东不让你申请租金补贴这块没办法处理那在整个租不到房子的话因为屋源供需不平衡所以这块需要透过更多的"},{"start":5591.496,"end":5609.642,"text":"出租住宅的一個提供來解決那房東不讓你申請租補跟報稅的話這一塊事實上我們更重要的在長期來講是資訊的揭露跟透過稅制的改革來提高這樣的一個可能性跟誘因這樣"},{"start":5611.323,"end":5629.634,"text":"那屋源有些糾紛無法有效處理這一次我們的修法提到這個部分那當然針對三個房東的一個痛點的話那我們試圖用豬爸下車的幾個配套來做一個解決但是實際上可能不一定每個配套都有辦法實際的去執行"},{"start":5631.255,"end":5653.506,"text":"那我们这次的过程我们蛮肯定内政部在租赁市场的改革的一个企图但是必须说以目前的租赁市场的条件不成熟以及相关的配套还不足的情况之下整个修法可能还有精进的一些空间因为其实也如同刚前面几位先进所讲的"},{"start":5653.906,"end":5672.441,"text":"事實上如果你的配套不足的話可能會造成市場閉鎖或是房東就提前把出金提高或是轉嫁等等這樣的一個現象的產生所以單點式的修法的一個提案的話會有還蠻大的一個潛在的副作用的一個風險"},{"start":5677.83,"end":5699.987,"text":"好那就這次那個大綱裡面有幾個部分那我這邊大概就提供一些補充意見的說明第一個就是在住宅法47條對資訊的部分那我們這邊會提醒就是說如果沒有完整的一個配套那目前收集不到收集到了資訊"},{"start":5701.208,"end":5723.844,"text":"還不是一個有用的資訊可以做決策跟做整個市場管理的資訊這部分事實上剛剛江穎惠教授有給我們詳細的一個分析所以我們這邊就不多做贅述那第二個部分那個就是整個主管機關那個雖然已經提供了租補也達到了八十幾萬戶要往"},{"start":5725.245,"end":5754.026,"text":"百萬戶來貿易進但是我們知道就是說目前政府的補貼式的住宅政策其實因為高度的依賴在租屋市場特別是租補跟社會住宅包租貸款所以如果我們沒有解除對房東課稅的一個疑慮的話目前的住宅政策會四倍公辦因為你是壓在租屋市場上面那租屋市場的房東這個player如果不陪你玩的話事實上這個效果"},{"start":5755.547,"end":5771.265,"text":"會沒辦法進行所以除了資訊的公開透明我們對民團對稅的改革租賃稅的相關的改革這部分我們也就是抱以非常大的一個期待跟倡議的一個角度"},{"start":5773.828,"end":5787.107,"text":"至於這次所提的一些部裡所提的一些相關的一個修法的話我們覺得是利益甚佳但是必須說最後一理路事實上有些部分還沒"},{"start":5787.828,"end":5803.127,"text":"接通所以其實政策落地是有他的一個不確定性在這邊其實幾位前一些前輩先進有講除了一些那個就是租金條帳的一個風險跟副作用以外"},{"start":5803.727,"end":5826.38,"text":"然後相對的那個如果一些相對的租霸下車的一個條款除了藉由公證適同租期屆滿以外的話其他的租霸下車的條款也會有他的一個就是真的在尋求法律途徑的一個局限因為你真的碰到一個租霸他就是不下車的話"},{"start":5827.185,"end":5856.153,"text":"你最後還是得透過法院去訴訟的程序去來伸張你的一個正義但是法院訴訟的話就如同剛劉綺霧律師所講的以衍生的相關的一些成本跟那個就是法院的不確定性那個部分是我們目前都沒辦法掌握的這樣所以大概只有目前崔媽媽版當時提出的一個公正 適同 屆滿這個部分是一個操作上比較成熟"},{"start":5856.853,"end":5874.206,"text":"那此外三年的租約條款這邊因為時間的關係我們崔媽媽目前暫時有研擬就目前有研擬一個建議是可能可以供那個就官方以及立法單位來再做一個討論就是我們就是"},{"start":5875.447,"end":5901.942,"text":"基本上基於一個優先就好房客優先承租的一個概念就是他如果違反應記載不得記載的一個事項的話那我們讓他原條件承租那支線一次那這個機制基本上是由房東來發動的所以相對會比較有橫頻的一些空間但時間的關係我們今天不在這邊多做這樣的一個說明跟做這樣的一個討論這樣"},{"start":5903.263,"end":5920.544,"text":"好 最後的部分我還是會回到比較中長期的部分雖然我們這次內政部提的部分針對幾個社會現象提出了相關的一個問題以及看法但是這些的社會現象基本上是就點狀的部分來進行"},{"start":5921.525,"end":5950.647,"text":"但是整體來講因為沒有碰到整個結構跟中長期的部分其實它的效果會有限那我這邊引那個韓國金秀賢教授就是去年上個月28號來台灣的他的一個提醒對台灣的部分那以韓國來講他們走了30年才能慢慢的在租賃改革的部分達到平衡房東跟房客租賃權益的一個制度"},{"start":5951.327,"end":5975.354,"text":"而且他們的過程裡面是先建立透明跟信任再來講求強制跟課稅甚至課稅的部分事實上時間上跟透明是適時的在年份上做一些偷勾的是比較長期才開始講課稅的部分這樣那概念上是把房東當成是合作關係而不是一個對立的一個關係"},{"start":5976.614,"end":6004.323,"text":"所以在這樣的話雖然我們求短期的改革的時效但是不得不我們得用中醫的療法來做整體的思考就是我們還得去碰觸體質的改變特別是租屋市場整體的體質改變那當然不諱言就是租屋資訊的透明以及資訊的揭露以及多元的登錄機制以及與稅的課稅的部分脫鉤"},{"start":6005.743,"end":6021.69,"text":"那來達成就是房東的資訊願意公開透明那當然這個部分我們會對財政部多做苛責希望他積極的扮演更多協助內政部的一個角色那此外當然包括屋苑的供給的增加"},{"start":6022.29,"end":6041.935,"text":"因為目前就是供不應求才會就是說租金賬上去的房客還是得跟否則市場是供需的問題房東要賬你跟不上去還是基本上租金沒有辦法那樣拉高所以最後結束的話金教授他最後一個結語是"},{"start":6043.395,"end":6066.453,"text":"改革不是誰打倒誰是建立一個信任跟秩序透明是最重要的基本起點雖然這個透明雖然有困難度但是這條路還是得走穩定是一個目標當然我們追求改革最重要的最後還是要追求公平但是這個是一個需要時間然後需要完整配套去發展的一個過程以上 謝謝"},{"start":6068.698,"end":6074.5,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝李執行長我們家常務監事喂 有齁好 大家午安就是我是台灣青年民主協會的常務監事陳奕進那我今天就是主要就是針對學生的部分以及青年的部分那分享一些我們協會過去所接觸的個案以及我們"},{"start":6096.376,"end":6099,"text":"實際上所遇到的困境那其實剛剛的幾位先進或者說NGO的團體其實都已經講蠻清楚那我今天會著重的部分其實是在"},{"start":6105.959,"end":6130.631,"text":"青年然後跟學生的部分我們遇到的困境到底是什麼然後我們做多一點闡述那首先第一個其實最重要的其實我們要先強調一點其實就是學生的經濟弱勢與結構性的不平等但很有趣的事情是我們在這個過程當中我們其實不是法定的弱勢就是沒有一個弱勢說是學生可是我們確實是屬於弱勢那因為學生他並不是法定的弱勢所以他是典型的這個結構的困境"},{"start":6131.812,"end":6160.591,"text":"我們離鄉背井我們沒有收入那我們甚至要我們需要一年到四年的中長期的租屋那以我自己為例子的話我是從嘉義到台北來念大學的那如果那以大一來講我住的是八人的宿舍基本上這房型也沒有得選那到了大二之後就是宿舍名額不足你基本上就是被趕出來你就是被趕出來那你被趕出來之後呢你就只能在外面租屋因為你排學校也大概排不到因為學校就是很學校就是生"},{"start":6161.147,"end":6184.707,"text":"升多周少那根本不可能那這個其實這個情況其實不論是在台北不論是在台中不論是在高雄其實各大城市其實都非常的明顯那在這些高房價的城市其實學生的負擔就會更加的沉重那甚至要靠家裡的資源然後跟打工補助然後才可以去繳租那其實學生的問題學生租屋的問題其實長久以來都一直存在但是並沒有被重視也沒有被討論"},{"start":6186.869,"end":6192.151,"text":"那所以我這邊要強調的事情是學生並不是選擇租屋而是他是被迫的要進到這個市場裡面跟大家去競爭這些房子可是他相對來講他的溢價能力就會更低這個我們後面會再講那在都市化的壓力再加上宿舍的供給不足那甚至有人會住在相對危險低品質頂加或者是其他只為了完成學業那這些都是政策過去沒有看到的主體"},{"start":6212.148,"end":6235.036,"text":"那再來就是剛剛前面其實有提到張理事其實有提到類似的狀況其實是因為在修法裡面有一個三年的租期這件事情那這件事情我是覺得也可以再來思考的事情是因為對於學生來講有的時候其實他可能是在交換或者他來一段時間可是學校沒有辦法給他房子的狀況之下他可能就必須也是要進到租屋市場裡面那這個時候就會有一個"},{"start":6236.127,"end":6256.122,"text":"我們可能就會需要一個四到六個月像是我們很多有一些是交換來的人那他可能就會想說我只要四到六個月我不需要住到一年我不需要住到八個月那還有暑假他可能暑假有的時候可能需要到某個地方去實習那這個時候他可能也沒有房子他可能就被迫可能要去一些更昂貴溢價能力更低的像AMBNB我們有遇到很多的狀況是這個樣子然後"},{"start":6258.744,"end":6265.734,"text":"那你彈性解約也有可能就會遇到一些高違約租金的情況那這些其實這些其實就是學生會遇到的困境那再來就是有一個是這一次在有會提到的是這個租金市場租屋市場到底這個租金要怎麼樣"},{"start":6274.947,"end":6288.217,"text":"那租市場的不透明其實也讓學生成為很大的受害者那剛剛前面其實大家都有提到其實大家看到的狀況其實都是會上591這591基本上或者是說很多租屋網站東吳小租再不然就是大家口耳相傳"},{"start":6289.153,"end":6314.239,"text":"這和我相傳就是說這個房子大概是這個價錢那個房子大概是這個價錢然後大家就會有比較然後大家大概知道說那我這個地方大概是哪裡大概是多少以台北市來講士林然後東吳士林或者是中正區那可能價格就不一樣那你可能過個橋又是另外一個價格那我們沒有一個很統一的地方去告訴我們說這個大概在哪裡或者是說這個房子大概可以值多少錢"},{"start":6315.519,"end":6332.466,"text":"這是我們對於很多來到異鄉的時候會遇到的狀況那對於我自己而言我自己是比較幸運是我遇到了非常好的房東這樣子但是並不是大家都會並不是大家都這個樣子那再來還有一件事情是關於性別安全跟租屋的歧視這件事情"},{"start":6334.667,"end":6353.539,"text":"我們也常接到很多案例 包括我們理事長他其實常遇到的困境其實是房東或仲介會有一些騷擾的問題然後會有一些安全的疑慮像是不租給女生或者不租給男生或者是宵禁或者是禁止帶朋友回家然後有些性別的刻板印象這件事情其實在租屋上面也都是應該會被考量的再來還有我們提到剛剛前面講的資訊不足跟"},{"start":6357.601,"end":6375.49,"text":"溢價能力低落這件事情那學生其實不是不努力而是制度上面他們都是一直我們都一直在處於弱勢的狀況那特別是外地生啊弱勢家庭的學生外籍生跨縣市移動的學生這些東西其實這些人其實都是我們我們一直應該要去注意但是其實長久以來一直沒有注意到的"},{"start":6376.01,"end":6379.674,"text":"那過去其實我們就已經有在長期都有希望希望說那是不是社會住宅我們除了我們對於租屋市場的一些狀況之外其實對於社會住宅我們是不是有一些我們可以一起去努力的變的解套方式這樣子"},{"start":6392.426,"end":6411.764,"text":"那其實很多地方其實都只是需要一些簡單的一個可能單人的一個租屋的地方那政府的社會住宅是不是有機會可以有這個小坪數可工人單人的套房這樣子那最後我要講的事情是學生其實不是特權他是就是再強調一次就是他是政策被遺漏的群體"},{"start":6412.659,"end":6431.586,"text":"那這件事情就是在我自己我自己北上來的時候就是特別的有感覺就是我們的過程其實就是一直在這樣子那有的時候其實非常的看運氣就是你遇到好房東那你就什麼都好可是你遇到不好的房東那你就什麼都不好那我們當然也有遇過就是同學是不好的房客"},{"start":6432.648,"end":6454.7,"text":"就是像我自己的姐姐在高雄租屋然後她就常常說隔壁的房客真的是很吵但是房東也沒有辦法解決那這件事情我們到底要怎麼去思考是我們可以在一起努力的這樣那最重要的事情是如何提供學生如何提供青年一個制度性的保障是我覺得是我們眼下或者是對於協會來講我們在這個議題上面最應該會去討論的問題那以上 謝謝"},{"start":6462.11,"end":6466.893,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝張常務監事我們家陳理事長好 主席以及在座的各位的專家學者以及這個與會代表 大家好我是中華民國房東總會的理事長陳柏勳對於今天這個幾個議題本會有提出一些建議首先我們當然很肯定這個內政部這邊"},{"start":6491.417,"end":6496.261,"text":"在中華民國開國以來第一次重視房東的權益真的非常感謝內政部第一次重視到我們的房因為房東有了第二度房制但他們都往往被人家認為是惡房東其實待會兒我會提到其實並不是這樣子首先第一個議題是做我們這個攸關透明的部分"},{"start":6518.649,"end":6524.597,"text":"那現在目前很多的這些我們公布的這些數據資料對於真的要租房子的人真的有幫助嗎"},{"start":6525.509,"end":6552.266,"text":"其实我说实在的听过很多的这些要租房子的这些人其实帮助的并不大为什么因为租房子其实不管是地点还有设备跟等等之类其实是没有办法用这种中位数来去分析反而是误导了这些学生们或者租房子的人觉得说原来是这样但是怎么去都租不到这是一个问题那大家都在讲全面实价登录那实价登录到底成本其实现在目前看来"},{"start":6552.881,"end":6559.705,"text":"大家都決定說個案的實體的實名制的這些實價登錄確確實實能接受真實的租金那為什麼沒有辦法去全面做當然我們想問一些問題當你實價登錄有這些業者在實價登錄的時候沒有登錄的話是會有罰則的對不對但是這些只限定仲介業他們要去實價登錄而房東卻沒有實價登錄這個是一直以來大家都在討論這些問題"},{"start":6578.971,"end":6596.146,"text":"那當然有問題要怎麼去實施 可能要想一下那我個人是提出一些簡介 因為目前實價登錄其實最擔心是房東不願意去登錄甚至有可能登錄完了 登不齊全還被罰那房東覺得這個是饒命 他也不建議不OK"},{"start":6601.983,"end":6627.074,"text":"所以我個人覺得現在有定型化契約了應該鼓勵房東都使用合格的定型化契約然後第二個我們要鼓勵房東來實價登錄所以不要有罰則應該是以鼓勵為優先如果雙方他都不講的話你根本不知道他租房租掉了所以我們要鼓勵那怎麼鼓勵呢既然大家都站在稅制的上面的話其實應該是要他鼓勵他實價登錄以外要給他一點稅優要有誘因我覺得他才會做"},{"start":6630.755,"end":6653.265,"text":"那再來要辨明 要怎麼辨明呢這些房東們可能年紀比較大了沒辦法使用這個網路的方式或者他沒有什麼自然憑證等等之類那應該是要更辨明現在AI的這個狀況這麼的發達應該是我們要提供它你只要使用 鼓勵使用這個合格的契約呢它的欄位其實是固定的"},{"start":6654.162,"end":6658.464,"text":"你要的資訊也是固定的那透過這些什麼透過這些智能化的系統在哪裡呢在地政事務所在這個區公所讓他可以在進達他的合約只要進去掃描以後該有的欄位就進去了"},{"start":6668.154,"end":6689.58,"text":"那當輔導的這些藝工們就要看你這些資訊是不是正確正確他只要確認就好了甚至簽個名就好了不要讓他太多登錄這些很繁瑣的這些東西來在這合約裡面就可以展現出來了我覺得這樣才能有效去講說到底房東持家登錄成本在哪裡所以應該是要先解決不要罰錢"},{"start":6691.543,"end":6704.266,"text":"這個是他才會鼓勵的性質那當然已經規範了房仲業者要去做那房仲是專業的一個人士所以他們當然專業的部分出座率會比較低一點所以我覺得這樣才有辦法讓真正的大家在講的黑市或是透明化的資訊這樣才能更透明而且是每個地段都很清楚"},{"start":6714.963,"end":6742.295,"text":"那至於現有的這些社會財包住貸款的資料當然我們也希望那也可以把它倒進去然後也把它註明說這個是社會住宅事實上是比市價還稍微低一點點那這樣可以讓這個民眾很清楚的了解說到底這個是什麼狀況然後第二個呢我針對這個這個這個有修法的裡面其中一個就是我現行考量這個保障三年租期跟限制許約的"},{"start":6743.45,"end":6771.945,"text":"首先我必須站在房東總會的立場覺得這兩個部分其實過度干預了這個自由市場而且房東辛苦買個房子結果我買房子然後你來定價我買房子你來決定要續約什麼我個人覺得是有點管太多啦這個部分我覺得必須講那再者呢其實有兩個這個政策下面有一體兩面首先第一個是如果房東都把它開的不合理的租金我相信他也租不掉"},{"start":6773.09,"end":6784.375,"text":"住不掉當然他沒有租金收入他損失是更大我相信應該沒有房東會做這樣的事情那第二個呢原先很多好的房客居多的那些房東幾乎不太會賬他價錢反而你現在告訴我說這個政府規定我可以賬2% 3%"},{"start":6789.764,"end":6812.077,"text":"所以他就以前不造价的房东都觉得太好了房东那个政府叫我说要占然后我有条件跟他讲一定要占所以他就占了所以这样的情形是不是已经过度干预了自由的市场而且租房子里面其实很多的设备跟所有的地点其实本来就是应该有区隔的如果你都你租房你都觉得嫌贵其实台湾不是每一个角落都很贵"},{"start":6813.243,"end":6840.647,"text":"台灣不是每個角落都很貴你要住在捷運站旁邊當然便利性但租金就稍高一點你要住在可能下一站可能做公司可能就便宜一點點所以我們往往不要去想說都是這個租金的部分那再來如果強化房客的保障避免受到不防房東的侵害我覺得這有點嚴重說實在的我們常常講我也贊同前面幾位專家都為了一趴再來做這個事情"},{"start":6841.823,"end":6855.153,"text":"到底有多少二房東你們可以具體化一點都沒有具體都一開始打翻所有的房東都是二房東我們的房客都趕不走了我還能我叫他走他就走不太可能啊"},{"start":6856.112,"end":6861.894,"text":"所以我認為我覺得這個議題其實應該收集更多到底有多惡劣的房東我也曾經在記者會上提到沒關係我們把他揪出來我們輔導他不然我們就抵制他對不對但是問題是沒有我們大家在抽象的想法對他把我趕走為什麼要趕走都不知道只知道說我到齊了他要賬我租金他就把我趕走了"},{"start":6879.502,"end":6894.477,"text":"但是有沒有真的去分析這個問題就像我們常講的你知道我們要把房客趕走是多麼困難嗎趕走了以後裡面的垃圾多到你會嚇死人好好的一個房子整個的收入租金還不夠去清理垃圾這個問題大家都沒有想到這個問題我先去提一下"},{"start":6899.977,"end":6924.233,"text":"那最後呢我其實在這次修法裡面我比較著重的是整理下車條款真的需要拜託這個沒有的話其實房東其實都要透過打官司而且這些法官們其實他有自由行政所以這個麻煩一下既然已經提了開國以來才做這個事情我希望一定要把它做下去那再來呢公正制度真的要不然我們像社會上每個都有公正違約了也沒辦法處理我要等他他等我我不知道所以這個不能真的"},{"start":6931.963,"end":6943.972,"text":"這個懇請 這個我們的立委主管跟我們所有的這個政府真的 我覺得這個任何的修法我們都可以討論但是這兩個部分真的真的開國以來第一次真的 拜託一下好不好 謝謝我聽陳理事長這樣說覺得很無奈的感覺來 我們請彭秘書長謝謝喔"},{"start":6965.843,"end":6994.596,"text":"主席還有部長還有各位在場的先進大家好我是AURUS彭洋楷那我就因為剛剛其實非常多先進都講了所以我想說剛好我今天的報告裡面事實上比較換另外一個重點那我首先我的態度很清楚就是說我覺得目前我們把討論的重點都放在內政部 內政部太辛苦了"},{"start":6995.27,"end":7016.789,"text":"然後其實我的第一章就是台灣現在租屋市場搞成這麼糟糕最大的元兇是財政部再講一次台灣的市場搞成這樣最大的元兇是財政部很簡單嘛我們財政部把台灣的租屋市場搞成一個違規沒有任何成本守法的房東反而吃虧嘛"},{"start":7018.37,"end":7040.882,"text":"很清楚所有房東都知道這事然後因為這樣的地下化現在造成了所有問題就要內政部要地政司來解決什麼問題房客權益受損因為房東不想讓政府知道所以不讓你領租補不讓你登記不讓你幹嘛因為房東地下化說我沒有落實公正所以很多租屋的糾紛等等他也遇到餓的房客趕不走"},{"start":7042.743,"end":7049.569,"text":"政府的困境是什麼政府困境是我無法掌握資訊所以我很多住宅政策的部分上我無法有效的執行我按到什麼東西是不是好"},{"start":7064.677,"end":7085.215,"text":"我想現在改革這個改革方案我就不多說大家知道事實上各界都講了各式各樣的問題我覺得那個問題的關鍵是如果沒有改變現在地下化的結構這些操作的問題都會出現問題怎麼出現我覺得最簡單因為我們現在討論內政部處理的是我們要提出三大的改革方案"},{"start":7085.939,"end":7110.82,"text":"可是他有兩個前提要解決第一個是我技術上要如何管那就是我要看得到市場我要知道誰在租房子我才有辦法管到他第二個事實上剛剛也很多人提的我遇到了很多的反彈你要管租金管租期遇到很多反彈等等要怎麼解決我們有沒有一些方式來化解這些反彈我覺得現在這一些的籌碼工具又不在"},{"start":7112.558,"end":7126.254,"text":"財政部的手頭上所以我覺得這一波的改革財政部又再一次把改革的責任推得一乾二淨就是你製造出的問題那我們覺得要解決問題現在財政部還是不用出面解決這就是我第二個看法"},{"start":7127.12,"end":7152.414,"text":"所以我覺得最關鍵的是第一件事就要做什麼我們要先讓市長透明市長透明除了大家談登錄之外真正的關鍵是財政部你要用一個方大家都知道為什麼房東不想讓政府知道他租房子所以財政部一定要來去做租稅的解決我們講了很多年財政部每天就在講租稅正義可是我要問財政部你從中華民國到現在你哪一天收到房東的稅過就是收不到"},{"start":7154.955,"end":7184.573,"text":"大家要不要面對現實來解決這些事那也包括像房地合一稅這種反正就是說你會造成我講實話就是我願意來租房子我反而不能適用自住那我偷偷租房子的話我還可以享受房地合一稅的自住不然的話就我寧願把房子空在那裡我不要租我可以享受房地合一稅的稅負所以這些事情大家都知道就是財政部不要去面對所以我覺得這是第二個關鍵就是一定要去解決這件事"},{"start":7185.413,"end":7200.42,"text":"第二個事情就是我們要讓機制有緩衝就是說剛講過 如果政府要加強管理我們要先鼓勵市場有更多的房子出租如何鼓勵有更多的房子出租 關鍵還是財政部目前現在的狀況是 剛講過房地合一稅是個最嚴重的事情"},{"start":7207.503,"end":7222.314,"text":"我如果房東真的願意把房子拿出來出租我反而不能享受房地合一歲優惠這也解釋了為什麼台灣有這麼多空屋的我不是說唯一原因是一個非常重要的原因那也包括我們"},{"start":7223.249,"end":7248.337,"text":"前兩年財政部說要做囤房稅2.0我們就跟他說囤房稅2.0沒有效就不會減少空屋的部分所以我這邊大概不多說我們可以舉一個像德國的例子德國他們做了怎麼樣的方式鼓勵房東長期出租怎麼鼓勵民間來做更多的出租住宅所以他們的稅的部分上的優惠我真的覺得我們台灣的財政部應該看到"},{"start":7250.698,"end":7275.382,"text":"那另外一個我要特別講這是最近我看到財政部一個公開回到立法院的報告他說現在你們內政部那麼辛苦做很多包租貸款都是他說都是他的功勞啦因為他囤房稅2.0有助於讓你們包租貸款做這麼多可是人家問你說那為什麼空污率創新高等等他說那是內政部的責任請內政部回答啦"},{"start":7276.121,"end":7304.431,"text":"我覺得我們今天討論租屋市場的改革就一模一樣的事情啦就是所有的問題是你造成的可是要解決的方式都要內政部去解決啦所以我還是對於今天的方式我的講法就是這個樣子所以我覺得我們修法建議是我們支持內政部改革方向可是我覺得這一次的重點是一定要財政部在怎麼講鼓勵房東把房子拿出來出租鼓勵民間來做更多出租出來的部分"},{"start":7305.291,"end":7327.111,"text":"財政部不能夠再躲我覺得還在講財政部不能再躲財政部不能再躲你們是最大最大的問題所在來源如果這件事不解決的話我覺得我們修法通過我們會有非常高的管理成本而且是很難去被執行落實的這才是真正的關鍵"},{"start":7328.294,"end":7348.705,"text":"所以我最後一章大概講那個邏輯很簡單我就覺得用一個小孩子來比喻嘛一個人要先會學會站起來他才可以往前走那他有他有能力往前他還可以用跑嘛那我會覺得我們市場的讓我們台灣的租屋市場透明讓更多的租屋的供給就是先讓我們市場站起來"},{"start":7350.399,"end":7368.386,"text":"先讓我們市場可以穩定的往前走然後因為我們這些現在要做的相關的租賃權益租期保障租金管制的管控這個方向這個價值我們都同意可是這個對我的比喻就是他有點要跑起來所以如果你沒有下面這兩個基礎你怎麼做得到"},{"start":7370.167,"end":7392.842,"text":"可是這兩個基礎的關鍵的所有的工具手段就是在財政部這裡所以我還是覺得如果我們這次要談租屋改革事實上是要用一個這樣的方式來看我當然知道租賃專法是內政部所掌管的可是我還是要請大家講清楚台灣租屋市場的困境跟問題是由於多年來財政部造成的困難"},{"start":7393.602,"end":7416.432,"text":"所以我覺得這一次配合租賃專法裡面財政部一定要打破過去那種官僚跟蠻憨的思維要去面對問題而不是說所有的問題都是要內政部解決內政部提了管制改革的方案請財政部要配套提出鼓勵房東把房子拿出來出租鼓勵市場上願意"},{"start":7417.412,"end":7441.836,"text":"提供更多房子出租的相關的稅負改革那我覺得這樣的方式才能讓內政部想要推動的改革上他才不會避免非常多房東的反彈而且我們可以鼓勵更多的房東來做甚至讓我們的包租代管讓我們的租金補貼可以事半功倍我覺得這才是真正的關鍵所在好的 發言到這裡 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝彭秘書長"},{"start":7452.498,"end":7477.007,"text":"我們現在是不是最好今天那時的專家都說明了的意見也說到這裡我們是不是請內政部回應說明沒關係 說得清楚一人五分鐘給你三分鐘給你謝謝 謝謝教育"},{"start":7479.434,"end":7492.592,"text":"我知道 我知道 謝謝教育那也非常 所有的單位來沒關係 沒關係我看你會請市長 署長 次長 個別回答但是我先感謝一下因為今天我們要感謝 我們要轉告"},{"start":7494.734,"end":7508.747,"text":"我剛有特別提到我們今天非常感謝就是內政委員會尤其在大家都非常忙的狀況之下有召開這個公聽會那除了謝謝昭偉以外也要謝謝今天來發言的包括劉許廷委員跟蔓玉珍委員"},{"start":7509.588,"end":7522.391,"text":"那同時也非常謝謝包括這個張志源教授還有劉啟復律師還有這個江穎慧助理教授張勝剛理事呂秉儀催媽媽的執行長那還有陳奕進這個青年民主協會的常務監事那陳柏勳是這個房東服務總會的理事長還有彭永凱奧爾斯的秘書長"},{"start":7535.074,"end":7560.164,"text":"那我們剛聽到各位的聲音我們現在就是特別請司長署長跟次長來跟各位特別回應一下那因為我剛剛是不匯報所以沒有辦法及時來但是我的同仁都有告訴我說各位的發言的方向那當然剛剛有人在講說不會是只有內政部應該處理可是我跟大家報告一下這個租賃的這個條例還有住宅法無論怎麼樣內政部還是掛主管機關"},{"start":7561.344,"end":7585.424,"text":"所以不管怎麼樣跨出第一步內政部永遠會往前跨第一步那不管有什麼樣的意見我們今天這樣的公聽會是要來整合大家的意見那共識性最強的不管是要修法或是有預告執法或是未來要跟其他跨部會的協商的話我們會一起努力那我就先請這個司長然後再來署長跟次長跟大家回應一下剛剛幾個問題也順便回應立委的詢問"},{"start":7589.366,"end":7607.353,"text":"主席部長然後今天各位專家學者大家好那首先非常感謝各位專家學者給我們那麼多的意見因為在整個註定條例的修法的部分在過程中其實我們邀請很多的在座各位提供寶貴的意見那其實在修法的整個大方向有關於要健全這個市場"},{"start":7608.598,"end":7630.937,"text":"然後讓我們租屋族穩均然後也保障我們房東房客的權益其實也是我們這一次修法最大的一個方向那剛剛其實專家學者有提到幾個很重要的部分第一個如何兼顧到房東的權益包含公正法的這些部分那如何對於不良房客房東的一些處理機制其實我們都已經把它納到這一次條例的一個範疇裡面"},{"start":7632.378,"end":7651.48,"text":"那對於一個續約或者是一個租金的一個部分的話其實我們也聽到很多專家學者給我們的意見包含第一個是希望對於增加租屋的供給那這個是避免對於一個租屋市場的一個衝擊那這個部分其實在部長的指導下其實我們也在思考這個問題"},{"start":7652.401,"end":7676.874,"text":"如何結合一些稅優然後來讓租屋市場來提供供給避免對於租屋市場的影響那另外對於一個租金的一個統計的部分其實我們內政部也一直在推動這個部分包含到我們也一直在定期發布一個租金的一個統計資訊那剛剛江穎惠老師有特別提到希望我們在做精進的部分我們會持續下去那對於奧爾斯"},{"start":7678.635,"end":7702.499,"text":"彭明書長講的全面實價登錄的部分其實在實務上當然這個我們可能還是會思考到幾個問題第一個對於租約掌握的問題那會不會造成一個租屋市場的另外一個衝擊的問題因為會不會造成房東不願意反而不願意把房屋釋出的部分所以這個可能還是有一些層面必須要去做一個思考"},{"start":7702.979,"end":7724.096,"text":"那剛剛其實像劉律師有提到押金抵付租金抵付租金的部分在一些實務上面判決了一些問題其實在這一次修法裡面我們都有注意到也把它納進去那各位的建議我們會納入來做一個一個通盤的一個修法的參考那也要謝謝各位委員然後謝謝主席幫我們安排這一次會議謝謝謝謝我們現在國土署管理署署長 副署長來"},{"start":7733.352,"end":7760.873,"text":"感謝委員召開這個會議首先我也要感謝我們租賃協會還有房東總會老實說包租貸款這幾年的成功靠的不是只有政府我們自己單方訂一個包租貸款的制度其實都靠我們業界不斷的支持我們把更多的房東找出來那當然租補也是一個非常大的一個來源那所以過去這些年"},{"start":7762.045,"end":7790.207,"text":"我們其實是透過鼓勵的方式那透過減稅那還有跟財政部不斷的溝通然後讓房東一步一步願意把這個房子試租那我相信現在願意走到檯面上願意接受公益出租人的這樣一個其他都是非常好的優質房東當然因為每個人在租房子決定房子出租都有他的一些背景條件"},{"start":7790.908,"end":7815.861,"text":"甚至願意走到願意讓他被列進去的時候他還是有一些背景條件但我們也尊重說最什麼我們過去在做相關的這個租金租金的資料實價登錄資料的時候有些房東其實他是不願意他不願意並不表示他真的不想去公開這一個而是他也擔心會帶來一些負面的效果絕對不是只有說服這件事情"},{"start":7817.042,"end":7845.497,"text":"那所以我們在過程中都是尊重所以為什麼會去不斷的去透過我是採取呃提供一個中位數的概念或提供一個路段的概念其實他有他的一個背景原因啊那所以也有大家這樣不斷的房客端也有像呃像崔媽媽基因會還有奧爾斯還有很多團體給我們不斷的鞭策我們也不斷的在往前推進這樣的一些修正的理念啊那所以"},{"start":7846.021,"end":7872.55,"text":"我站在國土署的角度來講包租代管已經形成了一個很好的管理的制度出來即便現在還很難達成大家的理想但是我覺得現在的制度是不斷的往更好的方向來邁進那在這過程當中我也覺得慢慢可以往前走就是像這個包租代管這邊業者希望推出的這個所謂的友善房東那在我們來講我們是認為就是"},{"start":7873.84,"end":7895.025,"text":"這些都是算比較優質的房東其實他可以慢慢慢慢在某些制度上他可以被凸顯出來變成說未來很多的租客他其實可以朝向找這些房東開始去做一些連結現在就是說逐步去把這些優質房東的名單怎麼樣慢慢的浮現出來讓他可以變成好的租客的一個選擇"},{"start":7896.107,"end":7910.679,"text":"那當然我覺得在租客端這些也是慢慢要去建立一些名單讓兩邊都能夠兩邊的名單都能夠慢慢拉出來的話其實我覺得對租賃市場的健全化友善化我覺得這會是一個好的"},{"start":7911.189,"end":7939.67,"text":"那當然對於拉長租期這件事情 老實說我們也是認為說你今天有好鼓勵房東跟鼓勵房客這樣的一個制度 雙向制度都出來慢慢去拉長這個房東的這個租約的租長約的意願那去限制不要說是限制 而是他願意不漲租其實就像我們現在租補的狀態下其實超過90%的房東都是不漲租的其他都是不漲租的"},{"start":7940.233,"end":7966.574,"text":"那它有它的市場條件當然這個市場條件不代表所有的市場條件可是我們是希望願意把這個市場是這樣維持住它會比限制漲幅這件事來得更有意義那所以限制漲幅它會有一定的約制條件但是我們也會站在一個認同的角度說我們在這過程當中慢慢把現有維持住好的租約環境"},{"start":7968.07,"end":7978.708,"text":"讓他變成一個公開而且是一個透明的環境那甚至他是有穩定的環境這件事能夠被市場廣泛的接受那接續下來去處理到他的續約跟"},{"start":7981.061,"end":8006.644,"text":"租金漲幅這件事的話它的連結就會有一個正當性這會有這個正當性我想今天大家的建議我們都有聽到當然也包含了所建議的往去修正公正法這個方向那再結合租賃條例的還有這一個定型化契約的修正我覺得這方面我們站在鼠推動這個包租貸款跟租賃補貼的交流我想我們也會全力來協助跟配合說這樣一個補充 謝謝"},{"start":8010.338,"end":8011.159,"text":"謝謝 感謝吳署長"},{"start":8020.598,"end":8046.568,"text":"好謝謝主席跟今天出席的各位學者專家還有相關部會的同仁那麼我想今天這一場公聽會其實對於整個國家的住宅政策特別在租賃市場的發展上其實是頗具意義因為我們希望一方面希望能夠全面性的去了解我們在租賃市場上面大家對租賃市場上的需求那包括說在資訊的透明化"},{"start":8047.128,"end":8064.464,"text":"以及整個在租屋市場的包括租屋歧視跟房東房客之間的一些關係的重建這些都是我們期待要去解決的那我也非常感謝立法院我們召委跟許多的委員支持我們內政部進行相關條例的修正"},{"start":8064.964,"end":8090.704,"text":"事實上整個條例的修正的最關鍵議題也是剛剛各位所提到的我們首先是希望能夠建立將整個資訊的透明化的制度我們怎麼樣逐步逐步來完成落實那透過這樣的一個逐步的落實的過程裡面我們才能夠讓整個租賃市場它在尊重市場機制的狀況之下每個人都能夠有所清楚的選擇我想各位剛才其實也說得很清楚"},{"start":8091.204,"end":8113.215,"text":"在市場資訊不夠透明完整的狀況之下本來就是會容易造成大家在租屋選擇上的困難但是我也要強調租屋市場的資訊的完整的透明化的建構其實可能沒有辦法如各位所想像的那樣子那麼快速我們就直接就公佈因為在租賃市場上的最大的差異性跟住宅市場上的差異性就在於說"},{"start":8113.875,"end":8132.065,"text":"整個租賃市場上的多樣性實在是太多了包括房型地點然後它的整體的裝潢等等這些都是我們在租賃過程裡面我們所要面對的那包括剛才幾位也有提到什麼叫好房東什麼叫好房客事實上這些都會影響到我們對很多事情的判斷"},{"start":8132.825,"end":8153.211,"text":"所以我們一定會逐步的透過相關的資料的收集跟我們自己本身的資料的運作那讓這個公佈的過程裡面會更資訊更完整那第二個透過這樣的一個資訊的完整的運作之後我們下一步要建立的其實是大家比較有共識的部分就是怎麼樣子落實保障租賃雙方的平等的權益"},{"start":8154.051,"end":8173.733,"text":"透過租賃雙方平等權益的對等那麼事實上所謂的租賃黑市的問題其實也才能夠解決今天我們之所以認定會有所謂的租賃黑市是在於說我租賃雙方彼此之間對於彼此的契約或者如何落實契約之間事實上是有一定的爭議或者是不滿或者是誤解"},{"start":8174.99,"end":8190.07,"text":"包括說我們在整個條例要修正過程裡面奉部長指示我們其實都舉辦了多場的公聽會在這個公聽會的過程裡面我們特別有一場是邀請年輕朋友來跟我們座談在座談的過程裡面"},{"start":8191.371,"end":8217.203,"text":"才去發現到說其實所謂的在租賃市場上面的一些對房客造成的威脅有時候不是來自於房東而是來自於其他的房客那麼這些房客他基於不同性別的狀態他對整個租屋環境的認知也有所差別也就是說當我們在座作為一個生理男性在做租屋市場的過程裡面其實我們可能沒有辦法去考量到"},{"start":8217.583,"end":8236.58,"text":"許多森林女性在整個租屋市場上面的相對的更加的弱勢以及她所受到的壓迫跟歧視所以我們為什麼要去保障房東跟房客的權益特別是賦予房東一定的權益就是說他可以把一些房客趕走那趕走的形式他可能不單單僅僅只是說他沒有繳房租"},{"start":8237.16,"end":8258.047,"text":"還要包括說他其他的老齡的行為等等這也是建立在對於其他房客的保障跟保護所以這個部分我想我們今天的共識其實是比較高的就是說我們怎麼樣子能夠完成對於租戶裡面對住宅政策裡面租賃市場裡面租房東跟房客之間的完整權益的保障以及它相關的配套"},{"start":8258.587,"end":8272.496,"text":"那包括我們剛剛署長有特別提到的整個的還有剛剛各位學者專家都有提到我們怎麼樣跟司法院協商那我們也感謝司法院在今天所提出的相關的意見見解裡面對於整個公正制度如何強化"},{"start":8273.917,"end":8298.772,"text":"司法院願意尊重大院的決定那大家進一步來做討論那這部分我們會繼續跟司法院做溝通跟討論我們希望能夠在未來能夠持續去把這件事情做完成那麼我們也拜會了事實上我們在過去也拜會了財政部那在拜會財政部的過程裡面其實就如同各位所在意的租賃市場的另外一個最重要的關鍵其實是屋原穩定的提供"},{"start":8299.272,"end":8319.254,"text":"那在台灣面對已經有91萬餘戶的空餘屋的狀況之下我們如何透過稅制的改變那麼來給予稅優或者是相關的稅率的提升讓更多的空餘物能夠被釋出一方面它其實穩定了租屋市場那另外一方面也協助持有者在一定程度上"},{"start":8319.714,"end":8343.021,"text":"他去matching他未來可能的買主那更重要的事情是我們能夠有效的降低國家的整體在淨零政策方面的碳排的運作因為既然有這麼多空餘物的出現那我們還不斷的去新建新的房子事實上是對整體國家的整體碳排是造成很重要的影響那更重要的事情是造成我們在租賃市場上面的不公平跟不對等"},{"start":8343.721,"end":8365.179,"text":"那沒有辦法落實整體的租賃市場的完整性所以我想我們會在這幾個方面我們會積極去落實改善那也謝謝各位委員各位委員跟學者專家今天給我們許多的相關寶貴的意見我們在未來修法的過程裡面我們將會秉持這些意見以及我們在過去在公聽會上面所獲得到的許多的那個"},{"start":8366.079,"end":8384.692,"text":"沿逃會或者是公聽會上所獲得許多的重要的寶貴意見那持續跟相關的單位我們做溝通我們期望在可以的話我們盡量可以在這個會期我們把相關的法令提出來送大院審查那在這個過程裡面我們會做最完整更好的整理以上謝謝謝謝感謝董事在這裡剛才我們的學者專家有說在進步這個"},{"start":8395.231,"end":8406.011,"text":"負稅署有專門委員是不是剛才專家所講的有什麼意見跟所面後是不是請回答一下"},{"start":8421.414,"end":8437.91,"text":"不好意思喔因為我剛剛就是特別大家都有提到租稅的問題其實財政部沒有不管財政部很願意幫忙而且做了蠻多的事情那我不知道剛剛好像有AURUS的理事長對我們是不是有一些誤解"},{"start":8439.992,"end":8444.636,"text":"我們今天有書面報告你是不是可以參考我們現在就是針對在稅制稅證上面其實都為了我們健全我們的租賃市場我們提供了很多的努力在座有一位女執行長我十年前就認識她了我們從住宅法走到租賃專法我們也盡量的提供了租稅優惠減免那包括最近我們連我們自己的所得稅也做了"},{"start":8466.714,"end":8478.642,"text":"為了租賃市場也做了那個租金列舉扣除也做了努力那也提高了那個列舉扣除的額度那另外就是說我們在房地合一2.0我們也剛上路對不對我們也做了很多努力我們也結合說未來如果說你的房子出租你報了租金其實我們也也為了敦促你誠實納稅我們也給你比較低的房屋稅率"},{"start":8494.292,"end":8499.379,"text":"其實是做了很多事只是我們可能沒有行銷但是其實財政部願意幫忙也很努力幫忙那今天與會來賓的一些建議的話如果是說就是我們其實很跟內政部都密切的在"},{"start":8510.394,"end":8532.256,"text":"在討論剛剛次長也講也敗會我們了其實都有在演繹中不要對我們這麼敵意說我們沒有幫忙或者說我們置身事外這件事情那朱黑市的事情其實是大家努力我不知道在座剛剛張老師張教授有講他是公益出租人我也是"},{"start":8533.718,"end":8540.865,"text":"對 而且我對現在的租稅減免的範圍我非常的滿意 真的是以上補充說明這樣是不是我們的財政部會有這個說明請問各位專家 學者我們是否有需要在第二輪"},{"start":8556.687,"end":8583.507,"text":"好 來三文江 抱歉謝謝喔 那個秘書長有什麼問題 我們請你回答我簡短講那個不好意思我還是要回應就是說財政部沒有真正回答重點第一個重點是台灣為什麼租屋地下化為什麼其實大家這是常識所有台灣人知道所有房東都在逃漏稅而且是幾十年來都是這樣子"},{"start":8584.811,"end":8596.717,"text":"這件事情就造成了整個文化就變成了房東地下化是一個天經地義的他去認真去繳稅變成傻子去讓政府知道還要繳所得稅讓政府知道房屋買賣交易的時候房地合一稅沒有減免這目前的真實結構是這樣財政部要回答我這個問題"},{"start":8607.726,"end":8633.311,"text":"這才是真正要談的關鍵嘛那這個談的關鍵就是說造成台灣就兩個現象屋主呢要嘛就是房子寧願空著也不要租第二個就是我租了可是不要讓政府知道偽裝成還是自住嘛我講白話就是這樣子嘛然後再來是說財政部我們過去幾年跟他交手了他每次都講租稅正義可是我就問你嘛台灣這麼多年來你哪一天收到房東的稅過了"},{"start":8635.066,"end":8656.732,"text":"那我的意思是說他每次都說要加強查緝可是我的意思說這件事不能解決所以我們沒有在指望說有沒有可能換一個思維我們應該用租稅制度建立在說我們鼓勵只要房東如果願意長期承租法國就是這個做法長期承租德國這個做法我在交易稅給你減免"},{"start":8657.952,"end":8673.72,"text":"就是鼓勵你長期出租嘛其實就是要鼓勵這件事情來做啊然後第二個事情是鼓勵房東透明嘛那我們講說給他租稅大赦啊那因為只要房東透明只要房東願意透明他會不讓房客領租補嗎會不讓房客攝戶籍嗎會不讓房客"},{"start":8678.763,"end":8689.406,"text":"抵稅嗎現在所有問題來源就是他不想讓政府知道他在租房子嘛其實就是不想讓財政部知道他在租房子所以我覺得這才是結構性問題要解決好我的意見都道理謝謝謝謝我們感謝彭秘書長在這我們財政部的覺得還有回答一個"},{"start":8707.483,"end":8737.142,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":8737.482,"end":8752.726,"text":"那因為畢竟交易所得或資本利得跟相對應我們其他的勤勞所得來說他在公平性上面會有相對剝奪感那我們剛剛說的房地合一裡面的自住優惠我們是給一般的就是"},{"start":8754.858,"end":8774.14,"text":"可能是只有一間房屋賴以居住的我們給他一個租稅減免那我們政策上比較不是提供給有一屋以上有一間自己住另外還有多餘的房子可以出租的人那對他來講他是資本綠德如果說在房東端的租稅又會比"},{"start":8775.081,"end":8792.349,"text":"房客端的來的更優惠的時候會有相對的剝奪感是這個有難處啊所以但是但剛剛好像市長他們那邊我們會配合他們來研議好不好那不要對我們那麼誤解我們從沒有一直講租稅正義我記得我在那個會議上都沒有這樣講話對"},{"start":8795.765,"end":8801.509,"text":"沒關係,因為我覺得有問題跟他們說的這樣,我們要去說明清楚,跟我們做報告的,看要怎麼做。不然你看他們專家花一個時間,意見給你,再不了了之,這樣也不好,這樣也不行,我們說清楚。"},{"start":8817.859,"end":8828.526,"text":"好 謝謝在剛才我們的專家說到公正法是不是司法還是法務部要解釋一下來 司法好楊法官"},{"start":8844.264,"end":8873.604,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好我們這一次是因為會議之前沒有接獲主管機關提供的草案條文所以我們在報告裡面沒有提出具體的建議所以我們對於今天各項議題的回應是表示說這部分因為涉及政策決定以及立法形成的自由我們是尊重主責機關還有貴院的職權今天內政部還有與會先進有提到"},{"start":8874.344,"end":8893.604,"text":"以公正法的規定來保障租賃雙方的權益的部分那這個部分當然也是我們尊重主管機關的提出的法條那相關的法條就是提醒就是在公正法上面公證人只可以就當事人的陳述依照法律所定的方式來做成證書"},{"start":8894.665,"end":8910.74,"text":"他並沒有認定實體法律關係的權限那公證書也沒有確定實體法律關係的效力所以那主管機關在作成相關法條的時候必須可能是必須要注意到這一點那我們以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝在這我們的專家還有人要代理補充嗎"},{"start":8923.967,"end":8926.471,"text":"我們在這感謝各位專家提供的報告的意見"},{"start":8932.324,"end":8950.6,"text":"除了有出席人員的發言提供書面資料及高清素美委員所提出的書面資料除刊登公報以外 我們會另外製作公聽會報告"},{"start":8954.183,"end":8967.11,"text":"本與全體委員及所有列席人員做參考再次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天的共聽會到此結束現在我們散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17058","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed56bfc183e580b28d664606f6c0e3032285db5c09cad80ab7c49f45ba0c93acf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-20T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」，請審議案。(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」，請審議案。(三)本院委員賴士葆等27人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」，請審議案。(四)本院委員許宇甄等24人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-20T13:31:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-20T14:40:00+08:00","duration":4111,"影片長度":"01:08:31","委員發言時間":"13:31:29 - 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謝謝各位黨團的代表我們現在開始開會今天進行黨團協商台灣民眾黨黨團委員楊瓊英等26人委員賴世寶等27人及委員徐宇甄等24人分別擬聚的"},{"start":2184.452,"end":2208.56,"text":"公民投票法第23條條文修正草案 共濟四案軍經院會決定近乎二讀相關提案並且商由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商所以在本次的會議當中來進行黨團協商我們先介紹今天相關機關列席的代表法案的主管機關是中選會謝謝吳委員來參與"},{"start":2216.165,"end":2237.666,"text":"在進入黨團協商以前我們先請提案的黨團代表跟提案委員做提案說明再請主管機關看有什麼意見要回覆現在請問是台灣民眾黨黨團要先說還是牛委員是不是就麻煩先請台灣民眾黨的陳肇智委員"},{"start":2239.042,"end":2266.336,"text":"好 謝謝主席請給我幾分鐘的時間我覺得我們今天的協商我們不是在討論技術性的怎麼辦理公投這個涉及整個台灣的民主深耕的這個深化的根本問題究竟公投是人民的權利是可以真正去行使的還是一種只是被制度層層剝削甚至限制這個象徵而已所以我還是要問以公投起家的民進黨的朋友們"},{"start":2267.776,"end":2289.347,"text":"你們到底願不願意把公投還給人民從民進黨在野的時候在野第一次執政然後再在野然後第二次執政到現在其實你們對於鳥籠公投這件事情在野的時候是非常重要的議題打破鳥籠公投一直是民進黨最深根蒂固的一個訴求結果誰知道第二次執政以後"},{"start":2290.347,"end":2303.397,"text":"民進黨再次把公投制度關到鳥籠裡面所以這個也是支持超過民進黨20年的我你們每次都不讓我說不要再講了我就偏要講因為我的民主觀念就是民進黨的前輩早期前輩啟發的"},{"start":2305.879,"end":2321.007,"text":"好那趁著完全執政在2019年修法以行政便利我也把全國性公投鎖定在非常可笑的我現在到現在還覺得不可思議兩年一次還8月第四個星期六好跟美國在過很多節慶一樣8月第四個星期六"},{"start":2321.707,"end":2345.532,"text":"那結果變成什麼呢這個公投跟重大的公共政策脫節啦那細節我就不再講第二個就公投喪失即時性跟回應性因為這麼久才能一次然後整個制度門檻越拉越高參與的成本越來越重本來公民制 這個公投制度是人民監督政府的一個非常重要機制它不是要被一手主導國家政策的一種裝飾品"},{"start":2347.012,"end":2370.509,"text":"人民用選票決定人選 人民用公投來決定政策這個是非常基本觀念 也是民進黨的前輩教我的2025年和三一公投 我覺得提供了一個觀察公投制度一個非常直接的案例 我們看到現在的制度不是中性的而且直接會影響民意是否能夠被轉化為政策的一個力量看看同意票434萬票"},{"start":2373.522,"end":2400.742,"text":"幾近不同意的三倍代表整個社會對於能源的供應議題存在很大的焦慮竟然就是接受了這個太野黨的一個提案跟一個主張但是因為投票率門檻也未達所以政府又為此為由讓這個訊號有點要被消音但是這也反映了幾個問題第一個公投日被綁定投票成本被拉高還有嚴格的門檻那就出現了說實際的公投票"},{"start":2401.502,"end":2418.591,"text":"多數支持但是結果不生效像我去地方去告訴他們要出來投公投票很多人不知道有這一張嗎我們這一區有嗎因為之前被大罷免搞得一塌糊塗就是很多人不知道這天可以出來投票第二個公投制度越來越難啟動就是削弱"},{"start":2419.611,"end":2438.096,"text":"人民對重大政策的制衡力量我知道你們很害怕2018年那一次排隊過久選務超載的狀況這也是事實但是那個真正原因出在這個投開票所規劃不足 人力調度不足作業流程有問題我記得那天早上我投票的時候因為我爸爸90幾歲 他在排隊"},{"start":2439.076,"end":2464.075,"text":"他排隊了一個多小時我打電話給柯總知道他今天沒有出現我說有問題喔這個排隊的速度很慢很慢我認為到下午會有問題他說好我注意一下我還記得我打電話給柯總說有問題這個基本上就是一個整個作業的行政作業的問題他不是公投綁大選的制度問題那這個我記得2018年投票前朝野政黨立委都在立法院多次提醒中選會"},{"start":2465.714,"end":2494.382,"text":"要注意投票流程投票投開票的作業人力配置等等結果當時中學會據說是拍胸脯保證都準備好了沒問題好等到出了問題2019年修法把中學沒做好事你都歸咎到公投的時間點不好那你們選的時間點真好因為你們完全執政愛怎麼做就怎麼做請注意親歷的學者當董事長的優英榮教授的台灣民運基金會11月17日公布的民調非常清楚"},{"start":2495.302,"end":2498.183,"text":"58%贊成恢復公投綁大選28%不贊成 差了30%而且跨族群的穩定度連請聽好 請記得民進黨支持者都有近四成支持公投綁大選最重要這次不是一次性的民調"},{"start":2511.327,"end":2531.235,"text":"這是連續三次調查都維持58%左右的一個穩定主流民意這份數據說明了什麼呢恢復公投綁大選是跨世代跨黨派跨族群的共識只能不能再視而不見了所以我們覺得改革應該朝以下方向前進第二恢復公投綁大選提高投票率"},{"start":2531.835,"end":2537.52,"text":"降低參與的成本 第二 鬆綁過度僵化的固定公投日第三 重新檢討投票的門檻跟民意反應的一個落差我最後要強調說行政不能貪圖便利 民主正當性才是重點公投不是政府的選項 不是政府的選項 是人民的權利如果制度被設計越來越困難 越來越處理 間隔越來越長 跟大選越來越脫節"},{"start":2556.795,"end":2569.51,"text":"那麼這個公投就是名存實亡如果這樣的話我覺得台灣沒有資格在國際上口口聲聲一直說我們是民主國家以上發言"},{"start":2571.024,"end":2596.116,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭之委員那接下來是請中國國民黨黨團的代表 牛旭廷 牛委員謝謝主席 我們話講簡單一點啦這個公投綁大選之所以要推動大概幾個正當性啦第一個當然就是投票率的關係嘛這已經有幾次的事實可以證明如果是脫鉤選舉的話基本上會有一個投票率低落的問題賣得過門檻或賣不過門檻大家在執行方面心裡都會有所不服嘛"},{"start":2596.536,"end":2616.997,"text":"所以導致很多都是投身體健康投心酸的那讓公投的機制形同虛設我想對於民主政治來講不是一件特別好的事情綁大選它當然要多一點點的成本但是總體來講它的強度跟民意的這個效果顯然是比較好的所以我想提高投票率展現真正民意是我們當然希望恢復公投綁大選的一個重要的理由"},{"start":2617.958,"end":2640.971,"text":"那第二個當然是行政成本的節省如果每一年都投票看起來不符合社會的期待啦因為每一年大家已經慢慢已經習慣在過去幾次盡量把選舉都做整合之後大家都習慣有地方大選一輪中央大選一輪嘛越簡單越好那如果有一些重大的一個事項也許是地方的事項或者是中央的事項用公投來決定的時候其實跟著大選一起處理是節省行政成本的"},{"start":2641.491,"end":2668.849,"text":"或許有人會講說這個排隊排很久啊或者是有什麼樣的一些狀況但就是因為有那一次的經驗之後其實我想在選務的機關在操辦的時候其實就增加了人力跟票箱跟票櫃嘛也導致後面即便有很高的投票率這幾次的總統大選投票率都非常高但其實你都幾乎看不到排隊的現象這個關注原因其實是因為在18年的那一次十大公投之後其實在投票率的動線票櫃的安排上面都做了資源的補充嘛"},{"start":2669.329,"end":2696.718,"text":"所以現在的量能我認為即便有公投綁大選這樣的一個機制基本上應該是還可以負荷的我認為這個是技術問題是可以被克服的第三我要強調也是最重要的精神基本上我們都希望公投的投票如果具有民意的正當性已經被決定通過它必須是要被執行的當然事理上民意的展現是一環但關鍵這些政策能不能被執行還是要看人也就是政治人物政府機關願不願意配合來做處理"},{"start":2698.078,"end":2717.345,"text":"如果你單獨投然後大家各有政治權勢然後到最後該消極以對不處理那他也變成現在這個狀況那等於公投失去了他當初的一個精神綁大選的好處是基本上人跟勢是一次處理的讓公投的議題跟選舉政治人物的競選政見直接掛鉤"},{"start":2719.106,"end":2747.191,"text":"這樣子公投的投出來的結果會跟選舉選出來的結果高度的同質性也才比較能夠確保這樣子的一個結果能夠被這些政治人物所貫徹而沒有再重新詮釋然後再到處變卦的理由所以我想不管是從投票率跟直接民意的展現從行政成本的節省跟時間的節省跟人事合一共同決定的價值這三項重大的主張我想都足以支撐公投綁大選這樣制度的一個回復"},{"start":2747.751,"end":2775.541,"text":"所以我們希望 我覺得今天條文就一條而已大家做一下立場的表述如果能夠達成共識當然最好啊但不行的話 那就回到機制來做解決 以上好 謝謝那個中國國民黨黨團的代表劉綺緹 劉委員那民主進步黨這邊不曉得有哪一位代表發言官方主席的宣告是說提案單位講完了之後因為我們沒有提案所以要請沒有關係啊 我們還是按照本來寫上的慣例那個民主進步黨要由誰發言好來 請宗嘉斌委員"},{"start":2781.214,"end":2797.065,"text":"其實這個在我們內政委員會我們也討論過我們比較務實的就理論面來說公投的目的其實不是為了讓公投容易通過或他的投票率高"},{"start":2797.845,"end":2814.707,"text":"公投應該是要盡可能的精確反映人民的意志跟人民的想法讓人民的意志能夠展現清楚我覺得這個才是公投真正的目的那你說很多的技術性的問題那可以大家來討論"},{"start":2816.289,"end":2843.818,"text":"那再來也有學者啊我記得當時在公聽會有位叫舒子喬教授他也是這次民眾推薦的中選候議員他也在公聽會上講過了這三十就是最近的三十年全世界九十一個民主國家辦過全國性公投大概三分之二的國家公投跟大選是完全脫鉤的"},{"start":2846.41,"end":2865.503,"text":"世界的潮流是這樣子為什麼就是回到我剛說的公投是要精確的反映人民的意志讓人民能夠去思考這個公投的意義所以蘇教授他也說公投綁大選其實不是主流當然每個教授有他不同的看法但"},{"start":2866.864,"end":2881.761,"text":"我還是要重申公投就是要讓人民能夠去清楚的了解公投的題目是什麼然後去了解去思考那你公投綁大選有一個缺點就是剛剛大家講的這個技術上的問題會不會排隊的我覺得那個"},{"start":2882.97,"end":2905.244,"text":"還可以解決 但一個選人跟一個對勢的一個全國的民意把它混在一起 這容易混淆這其實在民主的精神上來講我覺得這個也是怪怪的啦尤其像這一次的很多位委員的提案"},{"start":2907.066,"end":2920.124,"text":"裡面寫了主管機關英語公民投票案公告成立後一個月起至六個月內舉行公民投票然後該期間內有全國性選舉時英語選舉同日舉行"},{"start":2923.448,"end":2937.525,"text":"我想請問大家一個月起那如果它的這個公投的時間跟這個全國性的公投中間只有差兩個月這個技術性要怎麼處理"},{"start":2939.096,"end":2959.945,"text":"你的技術性 你的選舉票櫃你的選務人員什麼你能夠在兩個月之內找到這些選舉人嗎這點大家也要思考一下你一個月起 六個月內如果剛好是剩下兩個月的時間真的能夠做到嗎我覺得這個很難這個大家要三思 要思考一下"},{"start":2962.372,"end":2990.863,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員我們各黨團的代表都發言完一輪了我們現在請那個法律的主管機關那個中選會那目前中選會我剛剛了解因為現在是屬於一個提名人還沒有送到立法院來的狀態但是那個吳榮輝吳委員也非常感謝就是現在他是居於代理主委嘛代理主委的身分那有請那個吳代理主委"},{"start":2993.793,"end":3010.059,"text":"主席還有我們各團團各位立法委員大家好那我想我站在中選會的立場我必須要表達我們的這一個看法那我想公投綁大選在這一個106年的時候"},{"start":3012.472,"end":3035.169,"text":"那時候的這個修正法令是跟現在我們準備要修的是一樣的那108年以後我們在修法的時候從114年開始就每兩年就這個舉行公投一次那這個大概當初修法連有那公統榜大選在我們中選會的立場第一個我們可能會造成我們的選務會複雜度會變高"},{"start":3038.578,"end":3060.375,"text":"這個在辦理選務的時候各位也許不曉得選務的這個辦理其實它細節非常多那如果公投綁大選的話會造成像107年那樣子有時候你還要邊投邊選還要邊開票那造成這個混亂這個大概各位都記憶猶新那另外一個"},{"start":3061.215,"end":3076.321,"text":"為什麼公投跟選舉要把它分開因為我們要讓公投的議題能夠充分讓民眾能夠有理性的討論空間如果太急促的話你綁在一起的時候選舉跟公投會互相干擾"},{"start":3077.401,"end":3100.967,"text":"那造成的結果可能會變成不一樣所以這個是我們為什麼講說我們的立場當然我們希望公投跟選舉是分開的那另外剛剛有特別有黨團也有人提到就有立委也提到說其實現在的歐美國家大概這個公投跟這個選舉分開的是比較多的也是一種主流"},{"start":3102.427,"end":3125.431,"text":"另外一個我們說公投綁大選的投票率一定會高嗎按照以往的幾次的公投綁大選跟現在分開選其實它的投票率未必因為會綁大選綁選期投票率就一定會高那也未必其實關鍵還是在於公投的議題被民眾關注的程度這是有關係的所以我們認為說像這個"},{"start":3130.034,"end":3153.967,"text":"18年107年選舉的時候造成那些亂象我們都不希望造成我們基層選務同仁因為工作的負荷量過高而影響到整個選舉的公正性跟公平性被民眾來質疑那這個也是我們非常審慎認為說公投跟這個選舉最好能夠脫鉤以上是我們的立場"},{"start":3155.29,"end":3171.83,"text":"好 謝謝吳代理主委的發言不曉得各個黨團今天與會的委員還有沒有要再補充意見我們是不是中委員先還是劉委員要先大家都相互禮讓我們就先請劉書斌委員好了"},{"start":3172.827,"end":3199.216,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天的主題是關於公投法公投綁大選 鬆綁的一個問題那剛才我聽到民進黨的張宏祿委員所提到的是公投最重要的意義是要展現民主清楚地展現民意這是非常重要的 我也都贊同尤其是公投在一般的國家當中它作為一個補充到"},{"start":3200.496,"end":3219.734,"text":"補充到代議政治為主的這個體制呢是有它的意義存在的當然要呈現出最大的民意的時候當然必須要應該要考慮到的是公投綁大選因為那才可以充分的去表示出民意出來那個時候大家在同樣的一個時間之內就把"},{"start":3220.555,"end":3239.263,"text":"重要的議題把它解決保險之民意出來你分開了像目前還特定到兩年的某個八月的情況根本跟這時事是挫折所以這個是不充分的一個理由根本就回應到沒有辦法回應到剛才張宏祿委員所說的要清楚的展現到民意第二點"},{"start":3240.223,"end":3254.92,"text":"是因為要去一個技術性的問題就是在於說要充分反映說有多少個國家這裡的呈現出來那更重要的是有一個意義要去展現現在那個效率的問題"},{"start":3256.081,"end":3275.525,"text":"就是因為目前在以過去在2018年所呈現的那個十大的公投綁大選這個問題但是行政的在配置票投票所還有他的流程序上面是有問題的這部分沒有辦法去呈現到不要用行政的效率去解決這個問題那第二個就是不要去影響到技術性的問題"},{"start":3280.126,"end":3299.801,"text":"好那更重要的是要呈現出來民進黨在本身就有個蔡同榮叫蔡公投一直是最當初是被認為是最能夠展現出直接民意的這個基礎的一個政黨那現在他們甚至在執政之後也同樣的把這個所謂的鳥籠公投把它打開了"},{"start":3301.062,"end":3316.575,"text":"現在當了執政黨之後就換了腦袋這樣的情況是不能夠再繼續的呈現尤其是沒有辦法就是用剛才所說那些理由把它呈現出來因此特別的是包括我剛剛想講的技術經驗一個月的問題我現在想起我重點在哪裡"},{"start":3317.296,"end":3333.91,"text":"就是說因為時間已經確定了就像現在今年已經知道明年的地方選舉的時間已經確定了對不對所以如果要提高大選的時候絕對不會是到11月明年的一個月兩個月才進行大家如果有重要的公投議題就會再開始這樣籌備了"},{"start":3335.971,"end":3346.94,"text":"這個部分絕對不會是用你的技術性的日期去決定的議題這是我們台灣對於政治是非常的熱衷甚至是一個重要的表達民意的機會就是會從這個反過來去進行到有透過這裡展現出最核心的"},{"start":3352.364,"end":3372.25,"text":"議題就是要中頭展現出直接民意出來所以剛才說的時間計數一個月的這樣的一個時間會被限制就沒辦法去保險這也絕對不是問題以上就說明了剛才民進黨張宏祿 趙薇所提出來的議題根本就不是一個重要的而且這都可以被好好的去解決的而且這才是合乎到政治現實的問題好 謝謝劉書斌委員接下來剛剛是不是鍾嘉斌委員有舉手來 請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":3380.558,"end":3399.499,"text":"好 謝謝那麼剛剛呢我們聽到了幾位黨團代表的意見還有包括主管機關的看法那我想對於公投綁大選俗稱就是公投跟大選投票日同日舉行的這個議題呢其實似乎有一個觀念上要先釐清"},{"start":3400.18,"end":3416.627,"text":"那非常謝謝張宏祿召委他提到的在去年的11月分別辦了兩場公聽會那這兩場公聽會是應該算上升中性公允的學者專家所提供的意見他首先拋出了一個問題"},{"start":3417.907,"end":3444.428,"text":"所謂公投的目的是什麼是為了要公投容易成案過關嗎這個同樣的問題我們會轉換說那麼罷免的設計是要讓罷免容易成立過關嗎我想任何法律制度的設計它應該是兩面均衡性的就是說在某個個案上有人希望罷免成功有人希望罷免不要成功但是法律是一體同仁它不會去促進讓罷免成功或讓罷免失敗"},{"start":3446.63,"end":3469.759,"text":"那公投的目的 它的設計 制度上的設計陳如剛所說的 舒子喬教授所說的是要去呈現民意 而不是說要讓這個案子能夠過關或是不過關我想這一點要先確定的 不然的話就會發生了當發生罷免發起的時候 為了避免罷免過關那刻意的重複修法 提高罷免的門檻要讓罷免不容易成案 讓罷免不容易過關"},{"start":3473,"end":3491.565,"text":"這個都是因事而去設變更制度這都不可取的但是為什麼公投法它對於投票日會有前後不一樣的設計呢的確 誠如剛剛吳代理主委所說的2018年那一次公投跟大選同日舉行讓台灣全社會"},{"start":3492.846,"end":3510.823,"text":"經歷了一個非常清楚的看到的就是選務的實踐到底公投這麼重大的事情跟大選同等重要的事情放在同一天同一個場所執行到底會發生什麼問題它已經是一個超大型的實驗了結果我這裡不用再贅述在那一天之前"},{"start":3512.404,"end":3527.713,"text":"2018年那一次的公投大選同日舉行之前台灣一共辦了16次的公民投票在那之後2019年公投法經過修改改成每兩年在每兩年的八月的第四個星期六進行"},{"start":3528.733,"end":3543.84,"text":"這新的制度一共實施了兩次五個案子分別是在2021年的12月有四個四大公投其中一個題目恰恰好就是要討論是不是要跟公投大選同日舉行"},{"start":3544.78,"end":3563.032,"text":"怎麼這麼巧2019才因為2018的慘痛經驗立法院多數修法把公投獨立來辦理結果第一次辦理的2021年的公投的題目當中有一案就是要把公投的辦理跟大選結合結果這樣的一個結合"},{"start":3567.032,"end":3584.592,"text":"當次的投票率如何呢當次的四個案子的投票率差不多都在四成左右而贊成跟反對的比例大概分別是反對大概是51到52贊成的大概是47到48不等四個案子都差不多好了等到了第二次試用"},{"start":3585.663,"end":3610.835,"text":"公投單獨投票也就是今年的8月23號也就是第21案有關於核電政策的部分那麼這次的投票率只有三成那麼當然贊成的比例拉高了反對的比例降低了這說明了什麼說明了其實每一次的公民投票公民所呈現出來的意志都是單獨獨立的"},{"start":3613.24,"end":3637.279,"text":"因素都很難判斷說什麼共通的因素如果說這個公投跟大選同日舉行比較能夠刺激投票率如果大家目的是認為說要讓投票率提高讓公投容易成案過關那我們看到2021年市場的投票率跟2018年之前幾次的公投案其實差別不大"},{"start":3638.564,"end":3664.543,"text":"那至於說贊成跟反對的比例其實也不一定說哪一個贊成或哪一個反對比較多那我還是要回歸到一個核心的問題我們設計制度的目的不是為了要讓某個案子容易過關或容易不過關就像以前中華民國男子服兵役要做勢力測驗如果我沒有記錯的話那時候裸試是要0.8"},{"start":3666.46,"end":3691.158,"text":"那如果超過0.8不到0.8那可能有另外的體檢去做判斷對不起我說的不是當兵是說投考軍事志願役的軍事校院那麼有人後來就要求說那這個報考軍校應該是公民一個職業選擇吧你裸視0.8目的是什麼呢後來有人提出說矯正後視力達1.0即可"},{"start":3693.564,"end":3710.584,"text":"那這個制度的設計我們要問勢力測驗對於你投考軍校的目的是要裸視探求你本來身體的狀況還是尋求你矯正後的勢力就可以通過那如果目的要讓更多人投考軍校那我們應該把勢力"},{"start":3712.224,"end":3730.665,"text":"測驗的標準降低啊如果真的各位委員黨團的提案是希望讓公投容易過關那很簡單嘛你修改公投法那個門檻就好了嘛目前是同意票大於不同意票而且同意票呢必須超過全體這個選舉人的四分之一那如果覺得"},{"start":3731.286,"end":3753.037,"text":"考量到要讓公投更容易過關那就直接降低投票同意的門檻就好啦所以要問的是說我們修法的目的是要探求公民的本意還是要讓案子通過或不通過反對 如果反之如果希望公投案盡量不要通過那就可以修法怎樣比照罷免把門檻提高提高到說同意票要超過30%以上"},{"start":3754.938,"end":3772.778,"text":"那這樣的修法純粹都是為了一黨一私的特定政治目的哪天立場反轉的時候又對於這個標準門檻要調高或調低了所以我們認為公投法的目的還是要回歸以蘇教授本身他也是這次民眾黨黨團推薦的中選會委員"},{"start":3775.16,"end":3795.536,"text":"他所說到的是希望探求民眾的本意而不是為了要讓公投案容易成案通過或不容易成案不容易通過如果真的要福音這個目的調整同意的門檻即可就像我們我們的勢力測驗到底要追求什麼裸視跟矯正勢力在"},{"start":3796.707,"end":3819.223,"text":"空軍飛行員他就沒有同意用矯正勢力甚至你的眼部動過手術去做矯正的也不允許因為他認為要適應高空的飛行的生理條件必須你天然本身的去因應透過矯正的他是不接受的所以以此來看去調整公投的投票日跟大選是不是同一日"},{"start":3820.303,"end":3833.008,"text":"這個其實在實務上在2021年的公民投票有試成的投票的情況之下還是反對的多於贊成的當然我們知道公投的效力兩年2023年投過之後2021、2023年12月之後立法院當然就可以透過"},{"start":3842.512,"end":3869.611,"text":"跟公投結果不一樣的修法原則所以的確目前已經超過2023現在是2025年了已經不受2023年該次公投法的拘束現在各黨團也可以提出對公投法有關於投票日的規定的改變這個是符合法律的沒有錯但是我們還是做一個問題要問提案的黨團或提案的委員你修改更變更公投的投票日的目的是為何"},{"start":3870.97,"end":3894.311,"text":"如果還是回到那個是要促成公投成案那麼這樣子顯然不是一般學者專家所認為的公民投票的目的是要探求民眾的爭議而跟該次的議題該次的當時的政治氛圍當時是否有跟其他選舉合併投票這個都不是我們的考慮在內以上說明"},{"start":3896.451,"end":3911,"text":"好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團鍾嘉賓委員接下來有請中國國民黨牛旭廷牛委員謝謝主席這個我覺得以大概兩點回應民進黨黨團的說法第一個剛剛我們張宏祿委員有提到說比如說世界的潮流它可能都不見得是公投綁大選"},{"start":3911.9,"end":3932.463,"text":"但是我想我們修正中華民國的法律總是要因地制宜我們在討論的是國內的政治生態跟現狀以政治實務上來講如果用脫鉤的方式來處理它本來就會造成投票率低落以至於民意難以探知的狀況一個投票率低落不管他是贊成大於反對還是反對大於贊成都難有絕對的表述的這個力量"},{"start":3933.044,"end":3954.937,"text":"所以投票率當然是一個很重要的指標所以我想還是要以國內的政治實務的生態來做考量那麼第二個回應剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講了非常多他講說我們修法的目的是為了要成案而成案其實不是這樣的嘛我們剛剛也講了啊是為了節省行政成本啊為了方便啊 對不對為了讓事跟人共同討論加大這件事情決策的拘束力嘛這些問題這些都是"},{"start":3956.238,"end":3970.725,"text":"支撐公投綁大選的一些主張嘛我要再次強調我想各位都是沙場老將都清楚在最近這幾次脫鉤的這個公投裡面普遍在民間傳遞的訊息是什麼倒這不好嘛公投無用論嘛"},{"start":3971.845,"end":3992.717,"text":"民進黨也曾經是非常希望實踐直接民主的看到政治實務上大家變成用公投無用論來詮釋公投然後來探知爭議這難道不是一件不太對的事情嗎我們之所以修正制度就是希望扭轉這樣的趨勢如果讓這樣的趨勢持續按照現行的法條你都兩年才能舉行一次你不及時而且效果不見得好"},{"start":3993.377,"end":4020.956,"text":"你只會讓公投無用論深植於台灣人民的心中請問這樣對於推動民主深化直接民主的價值是加分還是扣分嘛所以我想大家把方向拉高一點嘛我們當然希望回到直接民主的價值讓這個公投有價值有效果有拘束力嘛這個才是大家要修正制度要共同討論的目標所以我想這民進黨提出來的想法我們是比較沒有辦法接受的但沒關係嘛反正協商就是這樣各自表述立場我們就交給議事程序來做處理吧以上謝謝"},{"start":4022.881,"end":4044.606,"text":"好 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15:01:38","影片長度":"00:06:02","會議時間":"2025-11-20T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會「如何健全住宅租賃市場及租賃雙方權益保障」之修法公聽會","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-20","start_time":"2025-11-20T14:55:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-20T15:01:38+08:00","duration":362,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.337218750000005,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.88034375000001,"end":125.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.83409375000001,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.19846875000002,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.94096875,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.23159375,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.47784375,"end":187.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.37721875000003,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.69596875000002,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.36409375000002,"end":259.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.68659375000004,"end":338.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.77971875000003,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.54971875,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.09346875,"end":358.37159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.446,"end":27.236,"text":"謝謝主席這今天談健全租賃市場跟租賃權益保障的修法公聽會這內政部今年在9月18號拋出租賃專法修法的這樣子一個方向保障三年租期限制漲幅跟強化權益保障三大方向之後當然就引起了很多的關注甚至很多的爭議"},{"start":28.156,"end":42.473,"text":"昨天祝福全聯會也有修法的研討會加上今天的公聽會其實無非就是希望在這個制度的重大變革當中找到妥適的改革方向跟步調這我想不管是提高透明度 租金市場透明"},{"start":43.314,"end":60.934,"text":"稅制的改革釋出空屋或者是租金漲幅跟保障的配套措施的設計我覺得今天大概學者專家很多都會琢磨在這個地方我就在這邊就不再多贅述了但各位的這個發言的意見我們都會列為未來修法的一個參考今天我在這邊丟出幾個觀點主要著重在"},{"start":61.894,"end":73.559,"text":"這個其他的配套措施三個方向第一我覺得租賃專法如果要修正或者是相關的法令要修正的時候我們除了要考慮前面幾個改革方向之外我們要考慮一下社區大樓成為現在都市的主流型態"},{"start":74.229,"end":98.525,"text":"因此社區管委會跟房客的關係我認為這件事情應該要被思考並行訴有效的政策方向租賃專法規範的是房東房客跟租業者三者的關係公寓大廈管理條例規範的是區分所有權人跟社區管委會之間的權利物關係房東在這個公寓大廈裡面他是區分所有權人房客缺乏他的主體性那中間衍生的爭議怎麼辦"},{"start":100.006,"end":124.962,"text":"管委會跟房客之間的關係成為租賃專法跟公寓大廈管理條例之中的三不管地帶我覺得這是一個很大的問題我們應該要思考一下曾經有管委會想要修改規約說什麼房客也要付這個保證金啊情人房客除了要付房東押金之外還要另外付給大廈管委會保證金成為另外一種負擔或者是租客有擾鈴的行為可是管委會沒有辦法制約因為這個人並不是區分所有權人"},{"start":126.442,"end":141.872,"text":"這個房東置之不理等等常常有這樣一大堆的漏洞租賃服務業者也常常要求啊管委會要在中間協調嘛管委會跟房東之間怎麼把事情給擺定喬好所以管委會跟房客的關係應該要在修法了之後一併考量相關的配套措施解決社區內部的衝突"},{"start":143.271,"end":162.49,"text":"第二要建立迅速有效的爭端解決機制房東最害怕遇到欠租遇到到期不辦理這是業界的常態房客最怕遇到苛扣押金或其他各種不合理的要求但只要任何大小租賃紛爭到最後只剩一途叫法院解決剛剛我想很多學術專家都有提到這個話這個"},{"start":164.94,"end":187.101,"text":"這個進到法院訴訟啊大家也了解台灣的狀況嘛耗時短則一年多則兩三年你那個爭議的權利金的大小搞不好你打官司的成本都遠遠超過這個細政的金額啊所以對於租賃雙方來講都是折磨也淪為雙數的局面所以如何透過修法的過程我們來建立訴訟外的紛爭解決機制其實是有其必要的嘛"},{"start":187.801,"end":208.025,"text":"譬如說租賃關係 消費關係可以跟消保官申訴啊也可以調處啊 也可以到調解委員會去調解可是問題啊 目前現行制度的共通性都是你必須要在這個平台達成共識嘛我剛剛才在樓上參與黨團協商這個達成共識在當下的社會是一件非常困難的事情啊 對不對所以沒有共識到最後你還是要進到訴訟嘛那進到訴訟就回到我們剛剛講了花了很長的時間解決雞毛蒜皮的事情"},{"start":213.166,"end":228.728,"text":"住宅租賃的糾紛叫做質輕量多金額很小數量一堆其實某一種層面是變相司法資源的浪費所以我們是不是能夠思考比照比如說勞資爭議處理法有一個行政裁決的機制租賃市場等等這樣一個爭議跟爭端"},{"start":230.61,"end":258.972,"text":"透过行政裁决的这样一个机制来做处理并且赋予一定的强制力让法院的送远可以有效减少我觉得这也是可以既可以解决租赁双方的争议又可以减少司法资源的浪费我觉得这个干脆要修我们就一并讨论第三这刚刚我们张先生也有提到这个有关于公正的问题这也是本席非常关心的契约公正的时候其实有完整的程序公正人应该要了解请求人的争议及真相并且清楚序名各式各样的法律效果如果公正的内容"},{"start":260.694,"end":267.859,"text":"這個資訊不透明不明瞭不完備的時候都還要主動把話講清楚讓這個公正數據有絕對的公信力也才能夠讓租賃的雙方啊能夠清楚了解契約的內容並且保障租賃雙方的權益也有數據顯示啊經過公正後的租賃契約只有不到百分之二後面還是產生了這個"},{"start":282.53,"end":296.916,"text":"註定爭議嘛 註入了這個契約糾紛所以我想契約的公正制度在預防紛爭上 它也有很重要的角色那當然會衍生一定的公正費用能不能透過政府的政策來予以補貼或者是支持 或者是推廣我覺得都可以討論 那另外也要"},{"start":297.456,"end":322.652,"text":"解決我想剛剛這個我們沒有套好但是剛剛張理事長也有提到有一個時間的問題如果期限借滿不交還你現在才可以走公正這個後續的程序但提前中止租約卻沒辦法所以我想在租賃專法修正的同時這個公正法的一些配套措施的一個修正讓公正的這樣的一個機制跟效果可以更穿透力這我想也是相關租賃專法在修正的時候一個重要的配套措施之一"},{"start":323.112,"end":349.972,"text":"我想租赁双方不应该是敌对关系应该是要合作关系修法除了要考量房东房客跟业者等等的核心角色之外请顾虑到他们跟周遭利害关系人之间的互动关系我刚刚讲了大厦管委会法院等等并且所以有效的纷争解决机制是很重要的希望在未来修法讨论政策的时候可以一并纳入讨论以促进整体租赁住宅市场的健全发展以上谢谢"},{"start":353.399,"end":356.508,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝牛西田委員我們現在請李執行長"}]}},{"id":"165731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9138f60d1f40f888c61604e11f985e1c3c0de1d72409e433a80b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"14:34:12 - 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资讯不透明房租 行情 要靠 要弱用拆的所以黑箱太多第二 法律保障不足"},{"start":40.675,"end":57.544,"text":"押金不退 臨時漲房租突然就被趕走 租屋主就無力的反抗第三 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謝謝"},{"start":1853.049,"end":1867.245,"text":"好 那各團團都已經到場我們現在開會那本日會議協商主題是願會禁覆二讀委員羅志強等25人凝聚衛星廣播電視法第20條條文修正草案"},{"start":1868.186,"end":1891.479,"text":"那本案請前經本會期第八次院會決議 進覆二讀由國民黨黨團負責召集協商那我現在先介紹在場委員鍾嘉斌委員林國成委員林佩祥委員然後我們的列席官員我們列席官員有我們的"},{"start":1894.965,"end":1908.971,"text":"陳代理主委還有法務部的副司長林副司長然後我們的法律籌備處的林處長法律事務處的謝副處長"},{"start":1915.497,"end":1935.942,"text":"現在我們先請因為剛剛我們嘉賓兄是建議讓機關先講所以我就調整一下我就讓機關先講我們原來黨團代表每個人三分鐘這樣可以嗎可以我們就先請我們的國家通訊傳播委員會表示意見"},{"start":1938.672,"end":1962.837,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早安我這邊大概先表達NCC的基本的意見就是我們大概就建議不用修理由大概分成幾點第一點就必要性跟實用性而言因為深色 平淺 換照的最終的決定權是在NCC委員會議不是NCC委員會議前面的前一個程序諮詢會議"},{"start":1964.757,"end":1983.533,"text":"咨询会议本身它所做的会议的一些决定只是参考建议性质并不是行使公权令不宜把咨询会议的委员的发言甚至委员个人的名字都公布让它暴露在第一线上"},{"start":1985.514,"end":2002.061,"text":"如果是重大的個案也跟各位委員報告重大個案依據NCC組織法第10條第7項的規定是會舉行聽證會的聽證會本身也是公開也有直播所以這個東西我們是建議就不用處理如果況且如果"},{"start":2004.862,"end":2023.78,"text":"現在諮詢會議的資料在現行的體制下之前有相關的一些台北地院 台北高雄這兩個法院都有 判決書裡頭都有署名說這個諮詢會議的性質它並不是 它是純粹是諮詢性質如果它"},{"start":2029.625,"end":2056.586,"text":"公布了委員的個別意見跟他的名銜其實會無助於擴大公民參與跟廣納多元意見況且也跟各位報告實務上已經有相關的一些個案上我專家寫者為了公開有一些發言意見造成這個變成說是被人家騷擾跟騷也引起提起訴的"},{"start":2059.008,"end":2073.343,"text":"檢察官也對跟少數他人提起的起訴後續這種情況都有面臨輿論追殺或者一些外界人情壓力如果修正案通過的話這種情形恐怕會更加嚴重"},{"start":2075.385,"end":2093.839,"text":"第三點報告因為這個東西是牽涉也蠻多的我們會建議是說這個修正案的方向還是要多多聽外界的意見特別是業界的公協會的相關的意見以上先第一輪補充好 謝謝我們現在請各黨團代表發表意見要不要先請民進黨"},{"start":2105.353,"end":2123.751,"text":"好那麼對於剛剛NCC主管機關的說明我覺得可以需要更切合提案要旨因為我們看到主席就是本案的提案委員那麼剛剛的確NCC機關表達了所謂的諮詢委員聽起來有幾點諮詢委員本身"},{"start":2126.293,"end":2155.005,"text":"他不具有决策的能力资讯委员个人也不是受到监督的对象因此他们的意见纯属于公具有决策能力的委员做参考这种情况之下如果将资讯揭露是否会影响到资讯委员本身的参与意愿当然这样点听起来是言之成理但是我要回归到我们提案委员就是主席的提出"},{"start":2155.865,"end":2182.115,"text":"是说这个屡传咨询意见外泄于申请人以外之第三人申请人却无从知悉咨询会议之结论与评分之结果如果说咨询委员本身不具有决定的权利那这里怎么会有咨询会议的结论以及后面的评分结果呢这一点刚刚NCC好像没有说明因为这是提案委员的重点"},{"start":2183.215,"end":2201.638,"text":"这个说提案委员的重点是说咨询委员的会议的结论和评分的结果是有连带关系的因此才觉得不能够黑箱的来作业而且还泄露与申请人以外的第三人那就是更严重了所以说对于这两点前提第一"},{"start":2202.319,"end":2225.487,"text":"是不是有发生过咨询委员提供的意见那提供给非申请人以外的第三人而不是只有提供给NC的委员知道这一点其实我们应该要去就明第二个那到底这样的咨询会议的结论提供给委员NCC委员的内容是不是就是直接决定了评分的结果这个因果关系也要续明"},{"start":2226.147,"end":2241.842,"text":"不然的话这样的两个前提没有序名的情况之下难免人家会外界有对于NCC在一些审查作业上的黑箱作业的疑虑不过话说回来我们也觉得说我们的解放也可以来思考一下"},{"start":2242.543,"end":2259.12,"text":"因为没有办法确定没有办法确保资讯不会外泄就干脆把资讯都透明公开我想政府透明公开是减少贪腐减少弊端的最佳方法但是透明公开必须放在正确的地方"},{"start":2259.801,"end":2289.067,"text":"那如果说是因为没办法保密所以所有的秘密都不用保留那就通通公开好像也不是正确的做法应该要问的说如果这些内容是不应该有外泄的那应该是落实这些咨询过程当中的资讯应该只限定于相关人可以取得那至于不相干的人如果取得了应该是追究所以我就觉得NC刚刚的答复的第三点应该说明"},{"start":2289.767,"end":2314.907,"text":"那如果真有这些内容外泄的情况两个做法一个是干脆都公开通通透明不要管后果如何一种是怎么样落实不应该让这个资讯不当的给予不需要的人知道这一点的一个防弊的作为才是一个正办所以我们觉得这里面的这个公开咨询委员名单这里面让我们不禁联想到"},{"start":2316.389,"end":2335.644,"text":"以前民意机关行使投票权利的时候常常有亮票过去在一般的普通选举保持秘密投票是防止投票的人他被相关的人进行威胁也就是说你将投票的内容揭露于特定人"},{"start":2336.224,"end":2358.922,"text":"那是不是也有满足买票确认按照指示对价旅行的一个过程所以过去在普通选举为了杜绝买票是严禁亮票的但是民意机关内的投票反而是规定什么要记名那这为什么呢差别在于一般的民众他的投票是不需要接受外界监督的"},{"start":2359.582,"end":2366.411,"text":"那不需要接受外界监督我们要防止他被买票那就像咨询委员的意见如果说他"},{"start":2367.726,"end":2389.562,"text":"这个资讯他所提供的意见是可以被验证的那这个咨询委员他的意见是有影响到最后的审查的结果的那也可能造成了我们把审查委员的名单这个咨询委员的名单咨询委员的意见一股脑的介入那更容易让想要意图不法去影响的人有所介入的空间"},{"start":2390.782,"end":2410.454,"text":"我去要求諮詢委員做特定符合特定立場的一個建議結果我還可以確認說這個諮詢委員有沒有照我要求的不當的對價去進行這反而就會造成一般選民所謂的秘密投票他所要保障的公益被破壞也就是說諮詢委員本身"},{"start":2411.614,"end":2437.135,"text":"如果要求他的名單跟他的表達意見被揭露會被適得其反反而讓諮詢委員更容易受到外部力量的不當影響跟介入這一點我們要審慎的去考量因為諮詢委員的角色他畢竟不是委員他不能對最後的結果做影響那因此他又不是一個他如果是一個需要被監督的對象就像民意機關的代表一樣我們的投票行為是要受到選民監督的"},{"start":2437.515,"end":2460.983,"text":"那當然就要怎麼樣一律的公開透明但是如果諮詢委員本身他不是一個受大眾監督的對象那將他的意見提供給有權決定機關的意見揭露出來然後反而是不是造成了更多不法介入的空間我是覺得同樣的手段會引起兩種不同的結果這個要審慎的評估"},{"start":2461.963,"end":2470.051,"text":"那我還是再重申這個NCC剛剛並沒有對於說到底諮詢委員的意見是不是就等同於最後的評論的結果"},{"start":2472.352,"end":2498.437,"text":"第二个那过去是不是的确有不应该将咨询委员的审查提供的建议予以不当外泄的情况那应该如何防止这里面没有说明第三那咨询委员到底是不是一个他的性质角色是不是一个必须接受公众监督的对象那以至于他的名单跟他的咨询意见必须透明公开还是他仅是止于提供这些意见"},{"start":2498.957,"end":2528.497,"text":"那當然我還要再強調資訊委員不是說提供意見我們有責任因為未來的評分結果如果受到司法調查這些留存在案的都可能是未來檢調去判斷是否有受到不當利益影響操控的一個具體證據但是司法調查跟完全不保留的公開公社會來取悅這是不太一樣的因為司法權是事後權它是根據後面有弊案發生的發動的偵查跟"},{"start":2529.777,"end":2555.17,"text":"但是如果沒有這樣的情況就一旅公開會不會就剛好落入了剛剛說的反而讓有心人士透過不當的對價去介入去影響到諮詢委員的意見這一點我們是覺得應該要以釐清那如果能夠釐清我們當然整個立場上民進黨是支持政府施政各項決策英語透明公開接受社會的監督這是一個大原則"},{"start":2555.99,"end":2561.274,"text":"但是在配套的做法上怎麼樣達到我們要的目的這一點恐怕要慎著以上因為這個修正案是本席提出的所以我剛剛覺得嘉賓委員說得非常好所以我做一點法案的說明事實上"},{"start":2575.902,"end":2594.841,"text":"基本上他不是對外公開啦是針對這個頻道他的那個聲色的一些單位他們就申請了他還去申請他其實某部分就是有點武器隊的原則啦這第一個就是說當這些頻道他們"},{"start":2596.653,"end":2625.496,"text":"包括深色 評鑑 換照這些相關的一些諮詢會議那相關的內容他們發現他們並不知道到底是在什麼原因就是說因為它是最後NCC審查的前提他是看這些意見那NCC審查的東西出來是個結果所以這個結果過程當中他發現這個過程我剛剛裡面有講對他們而言他們認為有一些我直接講吧有些什麼帶風向或什麼一些狀況出來那又不需要"},{"start":2626.817,"end":2643.683,"text":"不讓他知道說到底發生什麼事情所以基本上他不是一個公開的他是針對申請人尤其是頻道的聲色人他們來去希望能夠調的這個諮詢會議的內容讓他們做一個參考這樣更知道誰諮詢委員的一個審查的邏輯"},{"start":2647.364,"end":2661.711,"text":"那另外當然如果今天我們從公開透明角度我確實也考慮過那直接就把它公開但我的習慣就是說我們至少先讓申請人能夠知道整個過程那如果說這個方式大家覺得不錯的話"},{"start":2662.651,"end":2678.584,"text":"那也可以考慮對全國公開因為我個人是認為你相關的諮詢委員其實要對自己的一些意見應該有信心可以讓社會大眾來去看但是也確實有剛剛NCC講的顧慮的話那我們就稍微限縮一點範圍"},{"start":2680.405,"end":2701.646,"text":"那第二就是說一般來講我們講所謂的秘密投票的部分的話第一個就是說時尚諮詢委員也不是投票了他只是提供諮詢所以他沒有投票的秘密性的這件事情那更何況秘密投票有時候他是對人投票的秘密投票的適用的比較多那他是對事的諮詢其實應該不算是秘密投票的一個"},{"start":2702.307,"end":2721.777,"text":"一個行為的太陽那我就以上針對嘉賓兄我稍微補充一下這個法律的修法的一個出發點那我們再請我們的那個國城委員我想我們嘉賓委員剛剛已經講得很詳細公開透明是大家所要追求的目標"},{"start":2722.748,"end":2740.196,"text":"其實因為我跟沛翔長期都在交通委員會交通委員會很多委員確確實實對於這些知行委員他的定位問題確確實實是有所要求的"},{"start":2742.077,"end":2765.176,"text":"那這個部分我特別要點出來給我們NCC的單位NCC確實過去給人家的感覺完完全全一不公開二不透明所以第一個這些執行委員雖然不是向NCC委員經由立法院公開去檢驗"},{"start":2766.917,"end":2782.152,"text":"那這些知行委員也就是39位到51位當中基本上完完全全NCC主委就可以聘任那這個聘任他表面上也不經過"},{"start":2784.283,"end":2806.971,"text":"行政機關聘任之後他的權力到底有多大第一個行政機關他聘任這51個當中當然各行各業都有他的專家但是開會只要有19個人要做這些任何議案的決定包括關台包括換照包括開華"},{"start":2808.231,"end":2818.15,"text":"其實真正的後面贏無者是這些19個委員就會決定這個案子到底"},{"start":2819.395,"end":2838.152,"text":"是否成案到底是否如何傾向所以它的重要性表面上看起來這是不公開的是一個知行的單位但是事實上它是掌握這件案子到底成不成立或者"},{"start":2840.634,"end":2856.353,"text":"開罰或者換照非常重要的也就是NCC裡面的執行委員他的 講快一點他的執行機關看起來是執行機關事實上他是掌握絕對有權利的人"},{"start":2857.054,"end":2875.725,"text":"所以我是 我們本黨是這樣啦看到今天主席提出這個案我認為公開透明既然三黨都有這種共識行政機關有什麼不能見不得人的事呢所以公開透明 那我明智本來我林國成在立法院本來就是執行啊"},{"start":2876.505,"end":2893.182,"text":"那這個林沛翔這個某某人這個林業群執行那我公開有什麼關係呢因為他認為他提供他的專業還有提供他的看法給行政機關來做決定那我不曉得"},{"start":2894.203,"end":2912.1,"text":"為什麼會議記錄不能公開為什麼他的名字不能公開其實這裡面問題修改這個20條的這個部分主要在這個部分把它公開透明有什麼關係最後他的意見建議還是要進入"},{"start":2914.742,"end":2940.087,"text":"進入委員會委員他們來做決定性的決定所以我是覺得這些東西公開透明是沒有問題的我是覺得這樣會議公開的會議記錄有什麼見不得人本來開會大家就有講這種話專家的意見留下記錄給大家看有什麼關係"},{"start":2941.263,"end":2957.464,"text":"那我的名字去開會我公開出來我有什麼關係那當然啦因為陳代主委啊還有我們嘉賓這個委員啊他所提的這個顧慮也就是個人安危的問題"},{"start":2958.735,"end":2977.742,"text":"那我說實在可以討論但是公開透明是有必要所以不要小看39個到51個執行委員不重要因為他把它公開透明之後這些委員就會依照他的專業提供給行政單位去"},{"start":2978.522,"end":2993.584,"text":"去做參佐所以我只要他講的是他的專業那有什麼不能公開有什麼不能讓人家知道他的名字所以我們本黨一向就是緩黑箱"},{"start":2994.685,"end":3019.914,"text":"公開 求公開還有透明化這是一個任何一個單位未來所要做的所以我是本黨支持這個執行委員的名單30天以後你們都已經做成裁定了做成決定了那公開以後再來把它公開出來就是讓人家公開透明讓人家檢驗"},{"start":3020.914,"end":3040.323,"text":"所以我認為這是合情合理的一個修法所以我認為本黨是支持20條去把這個明定化讓這些知情委員提供他的這個著見以及提供他的這種專業的看法所以我認為應該要公開 應該要透明"},{"start":3048.752,"end":3072.843,"text":"好謝謝主席我是支持林國成委員的看法原因很簡單去年我們六代交通委員會那去年也有關NCC的案件我們也實質上去審閱了案件但是我們對於說我們審閱到的資料非常的失望因為我們想要知道的內容全部不澎湃等於是說一個無字天書在我們的眼前"},{"start":3073.303,"end":3100.752,"text":"那对于说我们不只是说以公开透明也好还是想知道整个案件的来龙去脉也好其实没有任何的帮助所以这次的修法与其是说要不只是说要公开透明更重要是我们要知道说这些委员他们当初的态度这些委员是谁当初的态度为什么会做出这样的决定提出了什么样的建言他是以什么样的立场他是有什么样的专业背景他就用他专业背景之后提出什么样的话"},{"start":3101.632,"end":3120.865,"text":"這些都是對一個我們現在應該知道的事情上面很重要的佐證我們其實很簡單我們想知道真相如果說連一個國會議員都無法知道真相的時候我認為這些事情我們就應該拿出來好好的在這個制度上面做出一定程度的修改所以我認同林國生委員的想法"},{"start":3123.482,"end":3130.579,"text":"我們補充介紹那個那個林月琴委員跟林楚瑩委員那我們一輪發言好不好那先請那個"},{"start":3137.91,"end":3152.219,"text":"不好意思 因為為什麼本來沒有要把你今天來聽可是我想先澄清一下因為剛剛林國成委員講的39到51 那個是內容 諮詢"},{"start":3159.134,"end":3175.731,"text":"會邀了非常多的所以我覺得釐清因為20條講的是深色換照所以兩個你剛剛提的這個是不一樣所以我想釐清你20條要修的是這個你想要修其他條嗎否則的話那個是內容跟好"},{"start":3182.219,"end":3203.357,"text":"那我覺得也是不是也請我們的NCC解釋一下你們的聲色換照在諮詢的時候的整個討論樣態上最後形成的事實上是大家最後的一個內容的意見就你們整個的流程是讓大家了解還有一個委員去參與"},{"start":3205.319,"end":3226.45,"text":"我相信大家都本著希望能夠針對他們看到的甚至看到的一個現象甚至上一個電視台大概五六百頁的資料裡面要去看坦白講要花非常多的力氣要邀到委員"},{"start":3227.31,"end":3236.76,"text":"如果領2500的出席費坦白講不見得會願意有人可是如果要這樣的話那你們可能會面對到的會是什麼問題可不可以一併做說明好 我們現在請那個林楚瑩委員"},{"start":3243.908,"end":3256.446,"text":"謝謝主席 林楚瑩第一次發言我想大家都知道我是來自於媒體其實媒體現在是慘業很慘的慘 大家可能會認為說我們今天在討論這個所謂的"},{"start":3259.29,"end":3277.435,"text":"衛星廣播電視法大家的焦點都會集中在49到56 57這個新聞台但事實上這個衛星產業它所代表的這個產業裡面的這些所謂的工作者它不是只有新聞台它還有其他的台就是包括了大家看到的像"},{"start":3279.176,"end":3287.902,"text":"電影台然後這個娛樂台體育台然後甚至於還有其他的這些播映的包括別的國家的頻道來到台灣喔那麼這些其實他們都在這個所謂的衛星同業公會裡面"},{"start":3294.827,"end":3309.12,"text":"那麼現在其實我想要代表的其實除了我是立法委員之外我也想要為產業發聲那麼我想要念一下就是中華民國衛星廣播電視公會針對這一次的修法的一個意見書喔因為我認為朝野協商會有錄影嘛那麼我也希望能夠把他們的聲音發表出來也讓在場的委員以及還有我們NCC來了解一下目前他們對修法的看法喔"},{"start":3319.81,"end":3346.885,"text":"那麼呢就是有關於這個整本市的修法那麼他們的意見如下第一是修法對於實質來說整體來講並不顯著因為一般的狀況就是頻道評鑑換照申涉案件在進入諮詢委員會審議的階段的時候透過歷次補鑑甚至於到陳述是已經可以了解委員意見便加以回覆所以本案在修法上面實質是不顯著的"},{"start":3347.145,"end":3362.975,"text":"第二 爭議案件當事方是可以進行調閱權的那麼是否屬於產生爭議之頻道的評鑑換照申涉案件受處分業者可提起行政訴訟等救濟手段並行使調閱權即可調閱相關的紀錄"},{"start":3365.737,"end":3393.812,"text":"第三 評鑑生患作業涉及頻道經營表現與產業建前等多元衡量建請在修法之前能夠先對產業的衝擊來進行評估那麼其實我最在乎的就是第三點我知道這個所謂唸起來有點拗口我想用白話文的方式再來說明一下就是我剛剛就已經講了產業真的是很慘他們現在的廣告已經被網路媒體"},{"start":3394.873,"end":3417.407,"text":"整個大量的80%都已經挪過去了那為什麼我會講到有關於產業的部分是在不論是爭議案件 評鑑 換照的過程當中他們所提供的資料是商業機密所以這也是為什麼當時在訂定20條的時候認為要去識別化來提供我就"},{"start":3418.227,"end":3445.555,"text":"舉一個例子大家可能現在左眼的都是新聞台啦電視的爭議等等爭議新聞或等等但是事實上包括像一些國外的頻道他來到台灣或者是其他非新聞台體育台娛樂台他們在經營的時候有很多的營運包括股東包括製作成本包括我就舉一個例子他請一個主持人到底花多少錢合不合理"},{"start":3446.555,"end":3460.58,"text":"那這個都涉及到包括你說今天吳宗憲不是這個我們國民黨委員吳宗憲是眾議天王吳宗憲他在某一個頻道裡面他開這個節目他領多少錢"},{"start":3462.4,"end":3488.96,"text":"那到A的節目當中他領多少錢其實這個都是市社商業機密但是在審照換照的時候他會經過NCC委員的評鑑因為我們也知道有的時候娛樂新聞或是娛樂綜藝節目講話會稍微誇張一點或者是他會有一些所謂產品的置入我提醒大家這個可能NCC就要給罰單了來了罰單有爭議案件的時候大家就會繳交資料"},{"start":3489.842,"end":3493.358,"text":"那這些資料的過程當中現在大家如果"},{"start":3494.4,"end":3523.29,"text":"用所謂的新聞台去看的時候都會覺得說新聞有時候亂報啦確實是應該NCC要罰啦或是怎麼樣但是回歸到其他有更多產業跟商業的頻道的時候我個人認為如果把這些資訊公開這等同於就是把一家公司的機密讓大家免費看用力看如果今天大家要攻擊這個電視台或者是要挖角的時候這會造成一些產業上面真的會慘上加慘"},{"start":3524.21,"end":3549.711,"text":"所以這是為什麼我特別趕過來來做這樣的一個發言是我知道委員有委員的立場委員們都希望能夠做到監督但是請不要忘了雖然這是一個特許行業所以有NCC來做把關它是一個特許行業但是它是不是要這樣的被全裸的扒開我請大家站在大家回去看Cable台坦白說啦我現在家裡我都很少看Cable台了"},{"start":3550.572,"end":3578.576,"text":"我自己是媒體人出來我可能都看網路比較方便那麼他除了49到55之外其實還有那100多台他們的樣態也受到廣播衛星電視法的管轄所以我們在思考這個部分的時候要跳開現在大家所focus在的某一些台性可能要放大來看這個產業那這個是我今天發言的重點"},{"start":3586.976,"end":3613.907,"text":"這個機關代表先請NCC因為有些要請教你們回應我還是先再補充強調一件事情是提供給申請人就是那些頻道啦所以換言之它是對頻道的保障它不是對外公開是提供給申請人所以屬於因為我跟你的立場沒有不一致所以你剛剛講了很多東西頻道好可憐起碼提供給頻道它被執照被停了它被處分了"},{"start":3614.927,"end":3638.753,"text":"結果呢他不知道上游的原因是什麼就NCC一個處分給他不公平嘛我剛才講武器隊的原則嘛所以他是對頻道的保障那起碼讓這個資訊能夠讓申請人知道上面不是講是對公眾公司還是針對申請人那申請人如果不需要這頻道覺得無所謂我覺得那也可以你就不要申請就好啦所以這個是以上補充請NCC來回答"},{"start":3640.794,"end":3665.49,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊先主委剛才中委員這邊有提到說諮詢委員的性質其實他就是參考而已上委員會議的時候他的具體的形式大概呈現說他同意他聲色或同意他同意多少人不同多少人大概是這種格式但是諮詢委員會議的資料會附在當中附件來看這是第一點補充"},{"start":3667.352,"end":3687.887,"text":"另外刚刚主席提到只对业者的申请来提供因为过去有类似的情况说业者他去打行政诉讼之后他看到的资料他对外的论述有时候会跟事实有点落差这个也要考量说这个东西是否得益"},{"start":3688.647,"end":3713.116,"text":"另外林國昇委員這邊提到39、51那個是節目廣告資訊委員會議他處理是另外一軌但是林委員講說是舉例的部分確實他的資訊也是提供給NC委員會參考而已因為常常或者在伯仲之間比方說有6票"},{"start":3714.176,"end":3739.951,"text":"6票反對 5票同意的時候或怎麼樣其實最終決定權還是在NC委員會議另外我這邊也要補充如果純粹公開像我一開始跟主席也跟各位委員報告過的已經有個案發生說被騷擾然後也有一些委員他面臨到一些業界的壓力如果這個通過的話那會變成一種現象有可能發生一種現象"},{"start":3741.051,"end":3761.473,"text":"委員的發言大概大家都當好人或說什麼大概都是歐帕或者之類的或選擇不發言這個就失去了諮詢會議的目的另外剛剛林國聖委員又提到說他的決議性質其實就是剛剛我跟各位報告他其實沒有裁定權"},{"start":3763.015,"end":3790.026,"text":"最終的決定還是在委員會議另外林佩祥委員有提到說這個情況差不多就是重大個案不管是申涉或者換照的時候NCC會根據NCC組織法10條提降會組織聽證會這邊也是會有對外公開的程序這邊大概是會有這種處理的情況"},{"start":3790.966,"end":3818.74,"text":"联约新闻提到的部分最后的形成就是跟各位报告的是至于质询委员会的资料会继续会详细的附在NCE委员会审议时候的参考资料NCE委员审议的时候的参考主要是看他们最后质询委员会的总结意见来处理总结意见里头其实有点类似是说我们去看奥运体操比赛那种outlier或怎么样其实都会"},{"start":3820.22,"end":3844.726,"text":"不會被納入都取得多數的或共識絕的部分來處理NCE委員會主要參考是那一部分但是也會看個別委員的意見就對了剛剛林楚妍委員講到非常貼切就是說個別委員有時候確實會提到某家公司他的財務狀況或怎麼樣有些公司如果是他要上市或怎麼樣如果對外"},{"start":3845.526,"end":3872.76,"text":"對外接入的情況有兩種一種是主席講說業者申請我才給你問題是我們無法拘束業者他拿到資料之後他會不會又往外再流出去這種情況下會影響公司的營業就是營業秘密這一塊所以我們認為是應該要持保留態度以上補充其他機關有沒有補充意見如果沒有我看今天我們的會議沒共識了好不好"},{"start":3877.081,"end":3883.666,"text":"我再度提醒你當初委員會多數委員提出這個問題的時候只有我們NCC什麼都不給"},{"start":3897.625,"end":3913.464,"text":"另外一個就是公共工程委員會他的委員 他的會議記錄他當場主委就答應這沒有什麼秘密可言但是他在招委員的時候他們就要寫得很清楚"},{"start":3914.085,"end":3929.322,"text":"也就是你要當我的委員這個部分監督單位要我名單的時候你同意給那你才當委員這個就把問題沒有是修法的問題那今天所有他是第一個提案人是"},{"start":3930.423,"end":3956.49,"text":"陳情人也就是那個利害關係人他才可以申請一個有沒有必要我們去連我們調也調不到那利害關係人他總是可以調吧所以他其實修這個法的目的是這樣其他的部分委員會該做的權利知行委員該做的權利都不影響他只是在保障利害關係人的權利而已"},{"start":3957.35,"end":3972.811,"text":"所以主委 這個我要特別提見為什麼人家公共工程委員會到最後就可以用行政的那個決定但是你們硬的什麼都不能公開所以主委我告訴你"},{"start":3973.972,"end":3992.105,"text":"該公開公開透明沒有什麼了不起是案子決定以後不可能再開會要你們調資料是決定以後他只是吸資內容是什麼這個有什麼公開透明是有必要的我是建議這個法是要修的請宗嘉賓委員"},{"start":3997.554,"end":4025.376,"text":"作為本市參與非零性的委員還是講一下來 我大概分享一下我大概可以理解提案委員跟贊同委員的想法就是怕有弊端這我完全認同那其實揭弊這個事情在弊端的調查司法機關絕對有完整的權力去調閱所有相關的卷宗我想如果真的是法院檢調機關來要求看知情委員的會議內容包括名單這個一定是完全提供的"},{"start":4025.916,"end":4054.62,"text":"那我請大家想一下因為我在2014年之前我是擔任副縣長在屏東縣政府那屏東縣是少數有線電視有設費率委員會的那身為副縣長我是當然的主任委員但是我們跟這個很像我看這個法條很像喔9到11名然後呢主管機關2名頻道商屬性或公民團體3到4名學者專家3到4名重要的他這裡還多了一個我們過去在費率委員會沒有的"},{"start":4055.08,"end":4083.83,"text":"他有一个同业工会代表一名这个说明了什么事情因为费率是攸关每个业者而且我们在地方的有限电视费率审议的时候是相对的是这个没有让他参与因为这个是费率委员会是知识体大但是因为这个咨询委员你看有同业工会的代表参与一人你说委员名单是秘密吗不是每个委员的发言的取向是秘密吗不是"},{"start":4085.09,"end":4099.539,"text":"所以它其實上它的公開介入的程度已經因為有同業工會的代表一名參與它事實上已經提供了一個業者相關業者他要知道這個諮詢委員的內容意見的看法一個很好的管道"},{"start":4100.299,"end":4119.925,"text":"那反倒是我要強調一下我們在費率委員會我遇到什麼情況呢因為我們的費率委員也是一樣任期兩年然後可以連任一次然後就不能再連任了因為為什麼要這樣做我們在地方政府很擔心費率委員會被掌握我們的費率委員會如果說"},{"start":4121.141,"end":4135.934,"text":"对于费率的审议是攸关业者赤裸裸的他的利害关系所以我们对他的名单是不对外公开的因为这涉及到受费率委员会审议费率的企业界他的利润的影响"},{"start":4136.494,"end":4159.308,"text":"那因此我也很清楚我必須作為會議的對外公開的召集委員我就承擔了所有業者的質疑他們就是利用我們辦公的時間來登記要陳情那直接就只有我副縣長接見但是他不可能去接觸到其他的費率審議委員為什麼因為這涉及到業者的重大利益當然這些委員的名單不能對外公開委員還要限制連任我們是"},{"start":4160.689,"end":4187.668,"text":"半半交替一次換一半剩下一半的第一次是兩年第二次他就熟了又換了半批的另外一批一半的是那個新人我們用這個方式確保費率委員會的委員的審議是超然於業界利益操控之外的那因此我們看到這個資訊委員會呢他現在會出現什麼情況剛剛楚英委員講那個很重要的情況我在擔任那個費率委員會的主任委員的時候我得到一個很重要的資訊就是業者的財報"},{"start":4189.198,"end":4198.395,"text":"从业者的财报我会读到说他每一个有线电视的频道他的这个系统商他跟各家频道的进货价格"},{"start":4199.281,"end":4219.89,"text":"一個有限電視頻道是有上百個頻道商他付給每個頻道商多少的代理商的多少價格我們都看得到那個最對業者來講這反而是怎樣他反而不希望這些內容是屬於商業機密而且我們費率審議委員會我們一次是審議家他連他送來的財報我們都要求這個財報內容"},{"start":4221.511,"end":4251.091,"text":"我們會旅程委員看完之後要收回因為那涉及到被審議者他的商業秘密好了那現在我們來看這個諮詢委員這個諮詢委員他雖然沒有去處理費率他處理的除了聲色跟換照之外有一個很重要是業者會相互競爭的叫做評鑑今天等於是諮詢委員他拿到的資料呢有各家不同業者的打分數那你想想看這些打分數的資料每個委員有他的看法那這個打分數的資料如果流出去了"},{"start":4252.192,"end":4272.787,"text":"贫贱优势的他要打击贫贱劣势的频道或这些业者他就可以拿来做文章了虽然我们说提供给业者那不是刚好你在贫贱的时候那些被贫贱为优等生的他就把这个贫贱内容的资讯他就对外揭露让其他贫贱比较他之后的受到影响"},{"start":4273.487,"end":4299.933,"text":"我是覺得我們林淑英委員的議席化反而驚醒了讓我們有一個意識我們本來是從防備防止這些諮詢委員有對外的勾連怕他們有些不當行為不當被介入但是現在我發現反而是現在有限的有限業者他們將資料交給這些諮詢委員共同來提供意見給NC委員的時候他們交出來的都是各家公司的營業秘密"},{"start":4301.654,"end":4318.149,"text":"這個營業秘密他們可能也不太想讓其他業者知道那更何況這個諮詢委員會他們說的評鑑對外本來是公開一個結果可是如果你把這個結果相貴的形成評鑑的這些諮詢的內容這些內容都可以被各業者自由取用的話"},{"start":4319.181,"end":4344.405,"text":"哇 那還得了啊那個就是產生了一個業者彼此的什麼的一個殺伐所以我是覺得我們委員的起心動念都非常好但是可能我自己有限的參與類似的經驗我們要從實務操作上去理解這樣的結果可能導致的後面的連收反應可能跟我們原來所預期的不太一樣我們本來希望諮詢委員要對他的意見負責都要公開但是無意中卻讓這個諮詢委員參與的會議的資料"},{"start":4347.486,"end":4376.253,"text":"在不恰当的在不同的业者当中流传而且有些业者还可以把它刻意的对外的就揭露公开那因为一旦你这个会议就你也写嘛第一个咨询委员的名单跟咨询会议应该30日内提供你3元第一个咨询委员的名单根本没有意义他一任两年业界代表在其中这两年哪些咨询委员这名单有什么秘密可言的没有秘密可言啊再来他们的会议记录会议记录里面会写很多啊包括什么包括贫贱的大家的意见那这个贫贱的意见"},{"start":4377.693,"end":4402.065,"text":"評鑑不好的業者希望什麼外界不用太知道我這次評鑑的不好我有機會改進我要是考試不及格我很怕老師叫我回去給家長簽名那個考卷我整個覺得開玩笑意思說這個評鑑又涉及到不同的業者在這一次的一個討論當中他會排名他會有一些那我剛開玩笑說我要是考不及格的考卷回去要家長簽名我很擔心"},{"start":4402.765,"end":4425.716,"text":"那這種情況之下我們要注意到NCC應該就算是這個修法如提案人提案委員所說的通過我覺得這個大家點出來的這些流弊可能要想到預防譬如說避免讓業者的這些商業機密外流避免讓業者之間不當的去利用他們這個貧賤的這個諮詢意見去對外頭造成他們不公平的競爭"},{"start":4427.177,"end":4454.819,"text":"彼此去打擊對方的商譽或影響到對方的營運等等的我是覺得這個不得不防我不是說完全反對這個條文但是我們這個條文我們這樣定有自己的目標方向可是做下去之後可能會跑出意想不到的一個一些副作用出來這個不得不慎國民黨團看今天應該沒有達成共識那就我們的協商結論保留送院會處理"},{"start":4456.019,"end":4456.859,"text":"那我們就散會吧 謝謝"},{"start":4494.426,"end":4500.711,"text":"平衡表啦 平衡表會影響還好我以前有一點點經驗我知道這頁子的影響比較大坦白說不是隊委員 這頁子的影響大"},{"start":4519.368,"end":4533.573,"text":"委員做不做是一件事 業者嚇得要死了以前我在整那個有限電視系統來說那個財報我不知道要收回來他不覺得這個財報他不想給人家看不 應該可能你們的業務大概是我是誰"},{"start":4543.996,"end":4552.864,"text":"所以我們要讓委員看到因為這案子委員的目的他希望是讓我們公開讓委員認定我們人家危險事件一定要處理"},{"start":4560.278,"end":4560.558,"text":"不曉得"}]}},{"id":"165660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913260926da07af7e90558ea7a01fa7587926f9ed453590123bef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:47:38 - 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現在就是因為我是原住民的立委那我們原住民的勞工啊普遍都"},{"start":131.124,"end":154.987,"text":"这个在制造业或是营造业积多了那这样在其他的中小企业或是其他的这些产业就比较少所以如果也有的时候所以经济部这边能不能救这个有原住民的"},{"start":156.135,"end":182.863,"text":"企业也能够有相关这些重要的这些延展人才或是相关的训练企业自己办的训练的时候能够鼓励他们也能够将原住民的这些他们的职业能够纳入当然很重要的就是劳动部"},{"start":184.695,"end":211.883,"text":"勞動部你們在辦理的時候你的報告裡面有提到為加強人才韌性鼓勵勞工自主學習新知推動產業人才投資方案再指勞工參加經審查核定資物聯網大書記及人工智慧等實務課程所以你們在擠辦的時候就是能夠特別能夠"},{"start":214.455,"end":228.808,"text":"保障這個原住民的名額這個這樣的話無論是經濟部或是勞動部共同的去推動的時候原住民也能夠在這個"},{"start":230.287,"end":251.44,"text":"AI的这样的一个产业能够被纳入然后相关的他的就业他的薪资当然就会跟着增加劳动部可以先说明一下谢谢政委员的指教原住民朋友相应的所需我们一定会尽全力来加以协助那我们在"},{"start":252.062,"end":270.14,"text":"AI这一边其实政府各部会根据AI的使用开发跟研究不同的面向教育部经济部劳动部速发部国科会国发会通通都会一起来努力那就劳动部跟经济部而言"},{"start":270.72,"end":284.588,"text":"我們其實針對產業所需要的人才他們會透過iPath我們會透過iCAP去把AI所需要的部分透過智能基準的開發去做相應的處理原住民朋友過往在製造業"},{"start":287.009,"end":309.087,"text":"营造业现在又有一大部分在服务业那就劳动部的角度而言使用AI可以预防灾害降灾减灾在职安位上一定会有比较多的琢磨那这一部分会有助援助朋友的职场安全卫生那至于技能落差的部分不管是在企业内部的办讯"},{"start":310.454,"end":339.732,"text":"人力提升计划或者是说技能方面的衔接或者是相关的部分我们都会来提供必要的协助那如果将来在开班的课程上面我们也会鼓励原住民朋友来参加那个很重要的其实就是你在相关的这些简章的时候有特别明定的话才会有特别这样的一个相关的"},{"start":341.615,"end":356.973,"text":"比如说地方政府的劳工单位或是相关的你们的地方的你们的所属的在地方的这些机构他就会主动去"},{"start":358.158,"end":373.294,"text":"去邀請就會鼓勵他們參加這部分對原住民朋友因為我們如果匡列一定的名額有些時候如果原住民朋友剛好沒有這樣的需求就會變成名額浪子但是我們針對原住民朋友來參訊的時候我們會加分優先錄取"},{"start":376.357,"end":401.663,"text":"不是你可以寫優先 優先多少的比例如果沒有人報名當然就其他人那額外要更好啊那這個部長可以嗎我們方向也是像勞動部這樣來辦就是鼓勵啦 用鼓勵的形式但是要不要用硬性一定的比例這個我們再來研究看看"},{"start":402.787,"end":408.943,"text":"不是说一定要而是说你有列出这样的话这些"},{"start":410.083,"end":435.29,"text":"基层的或者是中小企业他就会主动去有没有就是有这种鼓励的一个性质所以这个部分在推动青年训练这些这方面尤其是尤其是你们这边也有提到那个这个失业的对不对你们的劳动部也有提到所以这个部分是不是往这方向去去推动的话"},{"start":436.05,"end":455.689,"text":"所以对于你们在推动青年的训练提升核心竞争力这方面尤其是即将就业的这些比如说15岁到29岁你一开始就有这方面的规划的时候自然"},{"start":458.16,"end":475.611,"text":"自然而然相關的企業或者是說尤其是地方政府你們的這個在各地區的就業服務機構他就會去主動因為有這樣的一個"},{"start":477.253,"end":505.127,"text":"一個名額的或者是優先的時候他當然就會往這方面如果都沒有寫的時候就會被忽略因為我們很多都是會原住民就是那個資訊就是傳達的時候都已經來不及了會有這種情形這部分我們來加強這個部分就請經濟部跟勞動部這個不會沒有說一定要怎麼樣就是不要影響到"},{"start":506.808,"end":514.495,"text":"原來的計畫但是能夠有優先的一個機會好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"165659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913017a3bb16b6d541b3be06babd869ba0a26f9ed453590123b3dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:43:03 - 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謝謝主席 我們請這個副秘書長好 請王副秘書長委員長好 副秘書長我先針對這個翁委員提的這個法院組織法第83條裡頭關於這一個不起訴處分書反起訴處分書的這一些公開這些事情不知道你們有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":36.482,"end":58.196,"text":"委員因為這個部分是屬於那個法務部的權責所以我們司法院來回覆嗎還是請法務部我們先尊重他們 法務部好 謝謝委員關於這個當然本部在報告裡面講到就是本部認為現行的法院組織法在第一審裁判後我們起訴處才跟著公開現行法是不需要修正的"},{"start":58.55,"end":83.05,"text":"那我是說這個不起訴處分書不起訴處分書我們也認為就是說不起訴處分書他跟環境署處分書即使在偵查終結的時候他有可能經過申請在意再發回又回復到原來的偵查狀態所以這個時候如果偵查終結就公開的話有可能會影響到後續檢察官的偵查或者是偵查不公開那如果不起訴處分書對方也沒有在意啊"},{"start":84.537,"end":113.536,"text":"那還是不能公開對 那因為不起訴處分基本上它是它會裡面有很多個人的隱私在裡面因為它畢竟不是一個有罪的沒有經過檢察官認定起訴的事實那更何況事實上法院在實務上非常多人利用訴訟程序進行相關的濫訴濫告如果所有的處分書都公開的話裡面有非常多足以辨識個人資料的個資可能會出現所以本部是這方面有些疑慮所以這是第一點"},{"start":114.076,"end":140.803,"text":"第二點就是說如果全面性的公開我們現在起訴書公開的話我們一年起訴書公開的話將近有27萬件如果未來還不起訴書公開的話我們一年終結的案件將近七八十萬件那未來這個會引起我們檢察機關行政上會非常大的一個負擔好 了解 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問那個什麼問題問這個會不會痛 把它圍起來就這些事情如果是即時的播出那這個可能會有後續的這些疑慮嘛那現在你剛也提到有些國家過去曾經也做過直播後來在今年的九月這個事情就沒有即時的來播那他們還是用延後播出嘛"},{"start":319.962,"end":346.969,"text":"我們在就是我們今天報告中提出的那個印度為什麼提印度因為那是一個最新的資訊那之前有委員也有把那個當作例子說這些國家都已經播了那我們剛好就是九月才剛剛的資訊他們就是因為產生了太多以前我們就是一些學者專家所想像的就是從法理上去想像說可能會有什麼問題那在印度就都發生了所以說他們在九月的時候呢就下令刑事案件就全部"},{"start":347.729,"end":376.038,"text":"暫停 就是暫停實施一個直播那現在延後播因為你們在第10條你們提出來的第10條在延後播的時候你們是說法院得依職權或程序參與人的請求對特定的範圍或內容的錄音錄影予以遮蔽聲音影像好 這個部分是當事人的請求那法院可不可以自己處理"},{"start":377.096,"end":403.03,"text":"我當事人都沒意見 就是說這個播出去沒意見可是法官審理或法院的這個過程他覺得說 哇 這個雖然當事人沒意見可是我們還是覺得這個不可以出去因為可能雙方當事人都覺得這個事情也沒有很嚴重那法院可不可以自己認為這個事情很嚴重就把那一段遮蔽或者直接把它剪掉"},{"start":404.451,"end":424.316,"text":"好那個謝謝委員那個垂詢齁其實這個規定它是在母法中就是在那個法院組織法90條的那個第三項就已經有那個規定齁那就是當時的規定就已經說是依申請或是依職權啦所以我們在那個授權的這個規定第10條裡面"},{"start":425.296,"end":454.405,"text":"也有很清楚的很明白的就是說法院可以依職權除了一當事除了依程序參與人請求之外法院是可以依職權就是為了這個公益就是把它那個變成對 那就變成你們的權利會變很大是應該說法官是會合理的合義務性的對 那這個就會出現爭議就是說法官認為這一段不應該"},{"start":455.663,"end":464.708,"text":"出去那這個當事人覺得說這一段怎麼被剪掉了這一段才是關鍵會不會有這種狀況那個幫委員齁這個他所規定的是變聲變音啊那我說影像有一段就不見了遮蔽影像"},{"start":479.195,"end":501.878,"text":"譬如說我舉一個例子譬如說這個當事人就講了一個人事實地務那就涉及了國家安全那當事人就講出去他不以為意然後兩兆都不以為意但是這個法官認為這個事情不能講那法院會不會說那我接下來的延後的播出我就把那一段剪掉"},{"start":503.001,"end":519.332,"text":"或者是說好 另外一個狀況是說你們也認為無所謂結果你們也沒剪 就出去了那出去之後啊 譬如說國安的單位說這一段怎麼可以播出來那到時候誰來決定哪一段可以被剪掉 哪一段不能被剪掉這個怎麼處理我讓廳長回說"},{"start":525.232,"end":547.751,"text":"謝謝委員 其實委員講到真的是一個問題但是因為公佈已經是立法院這個 貴院通過的條文所以我們只能盡可能的在辦法裡頭做一些規範來降低但是一旦法官做了公義的決定把某一部分做遮蔽 或者是甚至我們也有規定說如果遮得太多 已經都不完整了"},{"start":548.211,"end":565.894,"text":"那大家看到不完整的反而誤解了整個程序審判的內容這時候可能乾脆這個就不要播出了那這些東西 而後反對的人一定會有不同聲明就會產生爭議這一塊我沒有意見我另外一塊是說如果這一段就根本不能播"},{"start":567.062,"end":583.577,"text":"就是不能講 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有請外交部林部長請林部長"},{"start":12.518,"end":41.446,"text":"部長早 委員長是 部長今年我國跟歐洲民主夥伴的互動頻率是明顯的提升除了剛剛部長你所提到的就是說從2022年開始我們跟中東歐的民主夥伴比如說像捷克 斯洛伐克跟立陶宛等國家我們合作推動了很多項的雙邊的韌性計畫之外其實近期我們跟歐洲的互動是有很密集的交流"},{"start":42.307,"end":50.057,"text":"不單單我們來看看這幾個禮拜單單這幾個禮拜我們就有非常重大的一些外交的參與比如說我們看到我們的前副總統"},{"start":56.826,"end":59.428,"text":"陳建仁前副總統他也參與了教廷做科學院的國際研討會再來11月7號我們立法院的同仁黃捷委員前往德國參與世界青年領袖峰會而且還獲得了年度政治人物的大獎也是台灣第一位獲得殊榮的政治人物對我們來講這是一個非常大的榮耀"},{"start":81.727,"end":98.496,"text":"那11月8號我們的蕭美琴副總統在布魯塞爾出席了跨國議會民主聯盟就是IPAC的政策峰會那以副總統的身分發表了這個談話我想這部分的外交部應該盡了非常多的這個心力那再來還有隔了兩天11月10號我們的前總統蔡英文總統"},{"start":103.879,"end":117.708,"text":"這個受邀前往德國在柏林自由會議發表了公開的這個演說那11月12號也是一個很大的突破沈博洋委員當然說看你怎麼樣出國結果他就到了德國聯邦國會受到這個德國聯邦國會的這個邀請呢針對這個威權國家假訊息跟資訊操作"},{"start":124.512,"end":145.969,"text":"進行了專題的證詞給這些人一個大大的耳光好像這些都是一個非常重要的一些外交的突破對於這部分本席是給外交部一個很大的肯定可是本席要特別提到的就是蕭美琴副總統到歐洲議會去演講的這個部分我想當天"},{"start":153.474,"end":177.459,"text":"應該有很多人跟本席一樣一覺醒來副總統竟然站上了歐洲議會發表了這個演說應該很多人都非常的驚喜非常的這個驚訝像本席那時候也想跟國人來分享這個訊息所以我們也發了這個文在這個社群平台發了這個文來做這個分享結果文一發出去呢"},{"start":178.996,"end":200.86,"text":"就發現說哇好多人來留言喔那留什麼呢這個是可能是用這個花了81歐元有肯定的可是也有很多這種留言花了81歐元買來的那還有人在問說iPad這資金的運作台灣有否出資啊求解啊就說不要一直往自己臉上貼金啊這種情況應該算是什麼不好聽的一些言辭出現了那所以這個是很快他就進來"},{"start":209.822,"end":233.068,"text":"很快就進來了好像面對這種而且他有些是假帳號有些是真的這個帳號所以面對這種那當然應該有些是國人那我不曉得他是抱著一個怎麼樣的一個心態我們在外交上面有這麼大的突破大家居然是撥冷水然後用這種方式來給這個外交部來給我們國家的元首來做這個洗臉"},{"start":234.008,"end":255.416,"text":"那像面對這樣子的這個鋪天蓋地的假訊息這麼大的一個突破我們這些人用貶抑的這個方式來修理外交部修理我們台灣那像這種帶風向假訊息的話我們有怎麼樣的一個處罰嗎我知道說有些人之前有一個什麼到日本去旅遊的一個"},{"start":256.517,"end":265.944,"text":"一個年輕人他就造謠了然後入境的時候他有被就是被檢調單位帶走那帶走之後呢後續是怎麼樣的一個處罰方式呢有沒有罰則啊這個部分"},{"start":270.999,"end":285.117,"text":"是請問部長好 這有罰則 委員有關於這一個貼這個假訊息的人也已經現在就是被這個就是逮捕偵辦嘛"},{"start":286.98,"end":301.062,"text":"我們當然過去的經驗因為這種所謂的FIMI境外的資訊的操弄也就是涉及到這種假訊息的認知作戰我們一定要"},{"start":302.403,"end":318.513,"text":"在最快的時間很正確的而且很精短的回應這是我講台灣的經驗現在全世界都很重視包括222就是對於這種假訊息你在發現之後兩個小時內你要用兩張的圖卡"},{"start":320.694,"end":343.022,"text":"200字以內就要能夠清楚的去澄清因為這樣不然它擴散你就來不及啊所以呢這個有助於我們的人幫忙控制它的擴散避免造成不可復原的傷害那至於說違法的行為現在都在偵辦當中那當然有境外的力量我們也會去溯源因為這裡面有所謂的不管用AI或是真人或各種方法這個是台灣我想這幾年面對的所謂的這種"},{"start":350.812,"end":361.68,"text":"這個假訊息已經也演變出一套因應的機制包括公民社會包括專業的團體也包括政府部門大家都有一個協作的關係"},{"start":363.806,"end":379.682,"text":"那除了說外交部在第一時間呢我們用什麼土庫卡拉等等來做必要之外呢那法則呢這些人的法則是什麼因為我其實我有稍微看了一下可能就是只是會觸犯了這個社會法第63條第1項第5款"},{"start":382.465,"end":406.965,"text":"就是處三日以下拘留或新台幣三萬元以下的這個罰款因為他散佈謠言 注意影響公共治安寧者是不是 我們現在罰則就這麼輕嘛 是不是是 當然這只是社會秩序違法他可能違反其他的法令啦 包括反滲透法或其他這個都要針對具體的案例那在偵辦中 如果有這些違法的事實會根據相關的法源來辦理"},{"start":407.805,"end":433.18,"text":"所以就是要溯源 到底是說比如說我們剛才提到的像之前第一時間 第一個留言就是說這是用80億的歐元來買的甚至說 像有一個美國的一個什麼留美的一個學者 旅美的一個學者他甚至還提到說 哎呀 這只是借場地而已類似這個的話 我們就是要馬上去做澄清可是對於這些造謠者"},{"start":435.148,"end":460.059,"text":"我們的法則是不是真的太輕 當然可能如果除非他牽扯到說他是境外境外有涉入有這個國外境外的這個力量涉入的話才有說有違反了這個反滲透法什麼之類的可是如果沒有的話像目前的法則我們所知道他只是充其量只是觸犯了這個涉違法是一個非常非常輕的一個法則"},{"start":462.62,"end":484.812,"text":"所以這部分的話造成就是說大家嘴邊亂說看到什麼訊息亂傳好像也沒有很大的一個阻止的這個力量所以這部分我在想說這部分的話我們也不能夠讓外交部的辛苦的這個辛勞這些心血毀在這些人的謠言當中所以這部分我在想說罰則的部分是不是應該要來加重面對這個我想這應該也不是影響公共之安寧這也是影響到這個國家"},{"start":491.897,"end":509.76,"text":"國家的信譽 針對這個外交部來講 應該也是一個很大的傷害是 不少再來因為時間的關係 我想請教一下就是說我有看到明年 我們的歐洲外交的預算增加的幅度呢 比往年來的高"},{"start":510.16,"end":514.102,"text":"那像歐洲它有一個 歐洲市它有一個加強雙邊及多邊合作那在114年那編列的預算是3.64億那到了115年我們編列了12.97億總共增加了9點多億"},{"start":528.228,"end":542.647,"text":"那我們增加的幅度算是很高的我想請教一下未來的一年我們在歐洲外交上面是不是有一個比較特殊的計畫到底這個經費增加這麼高我們未來我們想要呈現一個怎麼樣的成果"},{"start":543.468,"end":566.023,"text":"報告委員因為單單歐盟就27個國家如果加英國還有未加入歐盟的那是30幾個國家這個預算一除其實一個國家很有限那我們在歐洲地區也有31個管處很多都變成兩人管說實在真的很難運作那現在全世界都想跟台灣來往這主要當然一方面談一下重要性越來越高"},{"start":566.863,"end":587.301,"text":"另外一個就是因為俄烏戰爭之後大家都知道這個大家理念相近的國家互相會來交流合作再來就是大家也發現中國的因素中國是俄羅斯背後可以說是一個贏武者或者是關鍵的推手那對台灣所面對到的這個"},{"start":589.124,"end":613.753,"text":"共的各種 不管是新常態啦 各種的混合戰大家都想要了解 包括像海瀾的破壞等等所以我們去對應他們的時候呢尤其現在 包括我們在推動總和外交 有12個領域尤其最近我們看到文化外交 科技外交 智庫外交跟國會外交這四大領域 因為歐洲是一個多元的社會 是一個自由民主的國家"},{"start":614.273,"end":641.865,"text":"所以他可以跟台灣交流合作的事項非常的多所以這個時候呢我們怎麼去把握這個時機我們就成立一個歐洲專案那也包括榮邦計畫那當包括剛剛提到的中東歐所謂的供應鏈韌性的計畫我們也把它擴散到2.0除了捷克斯洛伐克立陶宛又包括波蘭以及其他的周邊國家所以這個確實啊需要比較多的預算包括還有人事員額的增加另外我們要發揮總和外交就是要"},{"start":643.204,"end":658.28,"text":"區域性的 點線面的所謂區域聯防所以這一個預算如果分下去 比如邀訪我們邀訪歐洲的國會議員結果呢 可能一個館處邀請不到一兩次那就太可惜 國會外交我想委員們也非常的忙"},{"start":659.44,"end":663.601,"text":"不只是說出去他們來的時候你們也要接待所以這個我就希望同仁能夠給他們更多的支持包括重視程度以外人事的緣額還有預算都能夠增加那也要拜託大便的支持"},{"start":677.299,"end":691.418,"text":"是 這個部分呢 我們會做支持因為畢竟就是台灣走進國際走進歐洲一個很重要的一個突擊嘛你需要人 需要經費 需要互動所以說增加 但本其實認為說有增加的幅度這麼高"},{"start":692.319,"end":716.289,"text":"也許我們有一些過去我們沒有的一些計畫那希望就是說多一點了解那我也希望一時間的關係所以我是希望說這部分的話如果可以的話呢可以給我一個比較細節比較明細的一個書面的報告好不好OK我跟委員報告一下現在吳志忠正是正在這一個德國參加這一個歐洲安全論壇"},{"start":717.089,"end":729.713,"text":"而且上台演講他也進入到法國包括他們國會裡面跟友台小組會面所以這個都是很大的突破剛剛委員因為有個表裡面缺少了最新的所以我做點補充謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913984c20406738029a558ea7a01fa7587926f9ed453590123b0ee1a9492a26f8aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:21:54 - 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謝謝主席我是不是請一下經濟部跟國科會好 請兩位就很好"},{"start":28.974,"end":50.138,"text":"部長好這個國科會今天是副主委嗎部長這個我們今天主席排定的議程是要討論AI時代到底台灣如何贏得人才戰但我今天要跟您討論在討論人才戰之前不能動"},{"start":56.367,"end":69.175,"text":"在討論人才戰之前部長我想要讓您看一下紅色資本已經入侵台灣直接掐住了台灣半導體的物流命脈"},{"start":71.141,"end":94.057,"text":"部長這個我不曉得您跟國科會有沒有掌握這件事情在我們的南科跟竹科這兩個園區裡頭唯一的物流業者叫做科學城物流科學城物流現在的經營權掌握在誰的手裡掌握在家裡大榮物流這家公司"},{"start":94.963,"end":114.15,"text":"那這一家公司呢現在被發現這一家公司的董事長其實具有中國的政協背景我們很擔心所有園區內的高科技業的機密資料是不是會全都漏"},{"start":115.902,"end":136.076,"text":"部長讓你看一下科學城物流公司的這個經營權的轉移時間軸從2011年馬政府的時代我們核准台灣家裡投資去持有家裡大榮過半的股權一直到18年新竹物流去取得科學城物流55%的股權"},{"start":140.029,"end":167.162,"text":"2019年新竹物流把科學成物流的股權賣給了嘉里大榮2021年順豐控股收購了香港嘉里物流過半的股權到2023年郭氏集團也就是嘉里控股的董事長郭孔華跟郭惠光分別擔任北京跟上海的政協委員"},{"start":168.792,"end":182.707,"text":"這一張關係圖可以很清楚的讓部長跟國科會去了解我剛剛所談到的順豐控股跟家裡控股公司之間到底他們的關係鏈結是什麼"},{"start":186.038,"end":201.004,"text":"順豐控股是中國最大的物流集團它具有中國官方的背景跟中國政府的投資而順豐控股在2021年收購了香港家裡物流過半的股權之後"},{"start":201.844,"end":228.366,"text":"形成了一個非常清楚的控制鏈就是順豐控股然後接下來是嘉里控股接下來是KLN然後是嘉里大榮的台灣然後是科學城物流而科學城物流就是我們南科跟竹科唯一的倉儲科學城物流嘉里大榮現在持股佔有科學城物流60%以上的股份"},{"start":230.831,"end":258.536,"text":"為什麼說紅色集團入侵部長我讓您看一下郭孔華是家裡控股的董事長2023年開始他擔任北京的政協委員郭惠光也是郭孔華的姊姊2023年擔任上海市的政協委員我今天要提起要問請教兩位到底這個郭氏家族的政協角色"},{"start":260.154,"end":282.672,"text":"在我們政府的認定 它是否已經就是實質的中資當時我們認為港澳投資台灣是基於一國兩制高度自治的這樣的一個前提之下現在的時空背景已經轉換了2019年開始香港已經完全失去了自治中國全面掌控政治 人事 法律體制"},{"start":283.433,"end":312.127,"text":"也就是說現在的港資是否還是當初我們認定的那個時代的港資如果現在的港資已經不是當時認定的港資那現在的港資是否就等於中資如果是等於中資的話我們的經濟部我們的投審會甚至我們的國科會在對於科學園區的物流倉儲被紅色產業鏈全盤掌控的時候到底政府能做什麼你們會做什麼"},{"start":312.887,"end":333.528,"text":"你們有沒有發現這個問題來 部長報告委員因為我們跟中國的關係是兩岸關係條例那跟港澳是港澳條例它是兩個條例不一樣那這是不是港資就視為中資我想這個還要跟陸委會做討論"},{"start":335.868,"end":364.96,"text":"那至於您剛才提到的家裡大王這件事情事實上我們都有一直在關注那您剛才那個圖表面上看起來他好像是用家裡控股他去控台灣跟台灣跟香港是不一樣的但是是不是有實質控制權這個部分我們現在正在實質的調查這個部長我覺得你這個回答太過軟弱了他當然是有實質的控制權順豐控股都已經直接入主家裡家裡控股公司他掌握他的股權"},{"start":367.641,"end":385.214,"text":"如果是你這樣子的邏輯的話那你們過去投審會在處理港資跟中資的問題就不會是這個邏輯囉它不是投資家裡控股它是投資香港家裡表面上它是投資香港家裡它不是投資那個控股"},{"start":386.072,"end":412.667,"text":"家裡控股 一樣嘛 這個目前上來講的話是有一點不一樣 那我問你嘛 園區如果遇到這個狀況的話這算不算國安層級要去處理的 所以我們現在就是說這個還沒有釐清之前包括你們什麼時候可以釐清包括科協園區的物流或是藥品的送這個買賣物流的話我們就不讓他乘坐了"},{"start":414.076,"end":416.147,"text":"你什麼時候可以釐清 來 國客會"},{"start":417.844,"end":446.477,"text":"跟我們報告原區的廠商對於相關資訊的外流或者是營業秘密的保護有非常嚴謹的做法那對於物流公司在科學園區的廠商物流公司是一個自由市場那剛剛講的科學層物流是在園區裡面有租地所以對於他的資安的查核我們定期科學園區管理局會針對他的資安是否有外洩的進行查核所以這個部分園區會盡適當的能力來把它做好這一番有關營業秘密保護的事情"},{"start":446.917,"end":473.699,"text":"你們講的是後面的查核嘛很多的資訊流通是直接雲端上傳就回到中國嘛他能不能掌握台灣的產能波動能不能掌握台灣的產線壓力跟出貨的節奏能不能掌握園區裡面什麼時間什麼物料往哪邊送給誰送給哪一家廠商如果他能夠掌握這些東西的話那他其實就是掌握台灣半導體的實際駕動率啊他其實就是掌握台灣的這個國防供應鏈的實際的動力啊"},{"start":476.891,"end":488.819,"text":"那你告訴我你後面才去做查核他第一時間雲端就送回去啦你們有沒有去注意到這個問題很顯然的沒有嘛我覺得你還是消極的在做這件事情嘛國科會你有沒有做過風險評估有沒有你是後面做查核那你在前端這一個你現在如果發現這個問題你們應該早就發現這個問題了啦有沒有做過國安的風險評估那你的風險評估報告內容是什麼你覺得他沒有具他不具備國安的風險所以還是可以繼續讓這一家公司"},{"start":506.651,"end":530.407,"text":"持續地做那如果是這樣子衛福部他們為什麼要立刻停掉衛福部因為涉及到醫材的部分這個由衛福部來處理醫材很重要 對半導體的我們這些材料的物流難道不重要但是因為它的半導體是台灣的護國神山這些不重要是是這個部分因為整個半導體產業的能夠乘坐物流的公司有非常多"},{"start":531.147,"end":549.815,"text":"那所以這一家公司其實所佔有的比例它是不是能夠掌控到所有的資訊其實沒有辦法的整體的包含優比數包含所有的物流公司都可以乘坐園區的廠商主委 副主委你們國科會在掌握AIAI什麼東西都可以做得到是"},{"start":550.535,"end":574.63,"text":"物流業者每天在科學園區裡面這樣跑你覺得他掌握不到嗎你覺得他掌握不到嗎他如果把所有的公司串接起來你覺得他掌握不到嗎那你們我覺得政府的這個國安的警訊這個安全的警訊系統似乎失靈欸我是不是能夠請國科會請經濟部包括你們的投審會認真研究一下這件事情一個禮拜內"},{"start":581.601,"end":590.31,"text":"一個禮拜內可不可以有一個評估報告出來跟委員報告其實我們一直都有在關注這件事情"},{"start":592.119,"end":619.515,"text":"好如果你們有在關注的話可不可以給本席一個你們現在關注的這些進度報告這些安全報告如果是只有說你有在關注就沒有回答到委員的議題所以他希望你們一個禮拜將你們演繹的方向再跟委員順便說好嗎你現在有在關注你關注的內容是什麼你覺得你現在的對於國安層級的研判是什麼安全性的評估是什麼包括未來的投審會"},{"start":621.226,"end":639.873,"text":"對於港資是否等於中資對於他的整個投資 台灣的內容報告安全程度的危害是不是都能夠做一併的報告出來 可以嗎 部長我們現在手上有的內容 因為一個禮拜我們會整理給委員做"},{"start":642.95,"end":651.742,"text":"OK 好 謝謝好 那就承諾委員所說的一個禮拜將他所提問的議題跟委員來說明清楚謝謝來 接下來整理一下委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913ac0751170ff3d4d7f94607883e6102ae26f9ed453590123b1053a2c2ab28c8d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:22:51 - 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分散在各個地方變成地方都會非常小只淪為你用一個沒有人看到的網站或者是我剛剛在說的很多的宣傳很多告示老師的研討會很多告示老師的工作坊"},{"start":462.449,"end":483.106,"text":"这些东西数量非常的小而且成效都不是太好所以今天给我这一份要提升媒体避免不当的这样子的一个网站我说实在教育部非常的薄弱好 请教育部次长你先休息一下我们请出发部跟我们的这个NCC过来一下谢谢我们时间很快那我想请问一下谢谢主秘"},{"start":485.185,"end":512.298,"text":"谢谢两位主密啊那我还是想请问一下你们现在是有这个I win的受大家的检的检举目前的介绍到底是如何跨部会的机制成立这样部分来我们往往下看所以说呢目前为止对儿少生性伤害的比率抒发不可安息是实际封锁停止解析关闭或这样的部分比例的确有一些的进步的确有些进步无可否认但是还是不够而且下面"},{"start":513.962,"end":537.501,"text":"所有的申述案是翻倍的来成长结果呢你们告诉我们往下通常你们都是停留在通知业者改善通知业者改善做一些承载之后然后我们完全诉诸于业者来改善你觉得这样办法有有办法二指我们刚所说的爱运当初所设立跨部会最大的一个成效吗谁可以回答这个问题"},{"start":539.373,"end":561.564,"text":"跟委員報告因為從整個兒照法的規定來看的話通知他改善其實是自律啟動的第一個環節第二個環節是如果假設他設有違法比如說裡面比例多少比例多少而且目前來說有關於設計的部分都以情色問題為最多對不對你們都是shut 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没问题谢谢克珍委员咨询官员请回座接下来请万美玲委员咨询"}]}},{"id":"165652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913b08e9ee887ac1955558ea7a01fa7587926f9ed453590123b3dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:10:54 - 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好 我們現在請陳婷菲委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 謝謝國發會主委我想我現在希望跟你討論的就是我們一直在推動的大南方新矽谷計畫這是我們在AI十大建設推動範圍一個很重要在我們整個區塊鏈"},{"start":154.574,"end":178.259,"text":"一个结合那我们这大南方新矽谷计划里面包含了六大分享计划对不对有我们的沙伦人工智慧产业专区全区管理AI运算资料中心建置沙伦智慧健康产业大楼建置净零绿能示范场域AI创新应用及治安剂"},{"start":178.999,"end":201.799,"text":"智慧科技專區智慧雨林產業創生這幾個部分是我們這六大分享的一個計畫那我們現在是用大南方新矽谷推動委員會這樣的方式在跨部會召開協調對不對那這個部分未來是不是會慢慢導入我們科學園區的管理模式"},{"start":203.588,"end":220.086,"text":"在特定的一些科學園區的規劃的話我們是會往哪一個方向走的那這個部分我想問我們所有的先期規劃已經準備好了嗎這個部分我們那個先期規劃的好了嗎"},{"start":224.079,"end":236.452,"text":"对对对都好了吗这几个计划我们看到沙伦人工智慧产业专区先行规划计划是国科卫经济部114年度是编列3.62亿对不对"},{"start":239.178,"end":261.207,"text":"AI運算資料中心兼職國科會是編列1.8億淨零運能示範場域經濟部是編列3億智慧雨林產業創生經濟部 國科會 教育部 速發部是編列3.69億好 那我們要問這些現在進行的速度跟進度如何"},{"start":264.164,"end":288.422,"text":"这是114年对 这个部分的话因为整个公务预算有点delay是对 那有一点点落后但我们现在其实落后多少落后的话个别的细项我没有办法跟委员报告但我们是经由公共建设这个部分我们针对每一个部会有在今天的国防委会这是公建计划吗"},{"start":289.182,"end":317.085,"text":"有些是用公建计划有些是本预算对不对公建计划本预算然后相交去协助Support这个大南方新矽谷计划对但是我们到底整个进度控管如何我们还没办法掌握细部细部我是不是会后再给那个委员治疗因为这个每一个都是还蛮细部的一个治疗主委那我要问现在有delay了"},{"start":317.952,"end":346.653,"text":"那请问115年呢我们有在2026呢我们有请各部会尽赶快把那个落后的部分赶快补上来没有什么叫尽快补上对对对因为我们今天刚好何谓尽快补上我们现在已经要省明年度的预算对因为我们要省明年度预算就算它还没送进来可是我们必须说的这些计划是一年一年"},{"start":348.035,"end":374.674,"text":"不斷的堆成不斷的延續那我要問我們今年都delay了那明年怎麼辦那在下一年度怎麼辦根據今天早上因為我們今天早上國家發展委員會的委員會剛好有開會那我們也有針對那個公建預算落後的問題然後請還有那個大南方新矽谷這個計畫部分也有做一些檢討主委麻煩了"},{"start":375.885,"end":403.971,"text":"一個資料給我們到底現在落後多少我們怎麼去補足這個落後下一個年度又要怎麼辦因為這是大計畫你只要第一階段第一年delay了後面就會一直delay下去可能我們這個大南方新矽谷就會造成人民沒有辦法看到我們的期待跟未來這對於我們台南很重要"},{"start":404.725,"end":425.386,"text":"对所以委员关心的这个部分其实我们在今天早上那委员会就有特别提出来就是说请各部会就共建计划还有那个像比如说六大生活区域以及大南方信息股这个部分的话要进度上面要赶快你知道这总经费你们原本预定是315亿左右当然这是分了好几年"},{"start":426.267,"end":454.287,"text":"所以你在第一年没有执行第二年再执行又会往后所以你知道吗我们期待的因为在台南我们沙伦我们除了是人工智慧是绿能我们现在也把AI整个运算把它加进来这也牵扯到我们人力的问题人才的问题好那我要再强调一点去年公务预算有遭到大幅的删减"},{"start":455.359,"end":461.009,"text":"在大南方興溪谷計畫那這個部分會受到影響嗎我們要如何因應"},{"start":462.988,"end":490.321,"text":"這個部分假如是涉及到人事這個部分的話應該是沒問題啦沒有就整個對整個的話比較delay比較多的應該是所謂那個計劃型期沒錯他在整個公務預算我剛已經講了他就兩個部分一個是公務預算一個是公建預算所以我們如果公務預算有被刪掉了那你今天就看到已經明顯delay了那這個要怎麼補足"},{"start":491.542,"end":510.65,"text":"我想你的報告要盡快給我因為這個對台南的發展太為重要了因為我們希望能夠透過所有整個大南方矽谷計畫的一個延展性看到我們台南在科技的亮跟光因為"},{"start":511.89,"end":528.995,"text":"我們有台積電的南科這個已經是我們的護國神山我們如果可以加進我們的綠能我們的演算中心我們的AI我相信台南在整個科技的發展"},{"start":529.535,"end":547.032,"text":"还有AI的发展又会往外跳脱很大的一块而且它的幅度会吃高发展能量会非常的大所以主委再拜托而且针对串联大南方各园区我们要纳入九大配套措施"},{"start":547.873,"end":567.212,"text":"供水規劃供電規劃交通運輸物路網產業人口居住員工子女教育還有醫療資源淨零轉型人力及人才培育文化設施所以這個部分各單位都準備好了嗎都有入學兵進去了嗎"},{"start":569.114,"end":596.231,"text":"這個部分我們會跟那個國科會這邊去討論一些內部事項然後另外一個就是說我們從明年開始每一個月我們會追蹤那一個公建的計畫它那個進度那國科會有掌握所有的資訊嗎有嗎這個部分國科會有嗎有掌握所有的資訊嗎跟委員報告針對這個園區的發展的部分國科會有掌握進度而且"},{"start":597.168,"end":613.269,"text":"你的掌握 你是要把周邊周邊我們人民的這些土地納入到一起副都心的整理規劃不是跟你們一樣是你不能說你今天你做了之後要把人放在旁邊是"},{"start":613.769,"end":628.962,"text":"相關的園區發展對於周邊的考量我們會一併納入考量那這個部分你們計畫在哪裡再拜託整個完整性因為這九大配套太重要了而且你要配合台南市政府的都市計畫"},{"start":630.863,"end":649.892,"text":"如果你的方向沒有出來市政府沒有辦法配合會的 我們會一起整體來考量好 這個部分因為其實在台南我們已經開了很多次會議那這個部分的動向跟它的進度跟它的速度 效率我們要看到是再拜託 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91312570d20cb696fc13be06babd869ba0a26f9ed453590123b06b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:31:14 - 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謝謝主席 那有請司法院副秘書長"},{"start":15.636,"end":39.162,"text":"副秘書長剛剛有人要跟你深究關於法庭直播法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法他現在走掉了我們就來深究我們來看一下荒謬的修法可惡的修法沒有邏輯的修法然後結果司法院變成好人好事代表幫他們做這個很棒的實施辦法挽救了非常多的危機我們來看一下上一次呢"},{"start":45.066,"end":47.435,"text":"我的投影片 沒關係字都不見了沒關係我直接講給你聽喔"},{"start":49.775,"end":78.414,"text":"當時呢在這個法庭直播的時候呢吳宗憲召委召開了一個公聽會在公聽會上呢有非常多專家學者提出三大重點沒關係我直接講給你聽第一個大家擔心法院變成秀場就如同剛剛有很愛作秀的委員第二個有人擔心影響司法的審判影響法官還有影響國民法官的心證還有很擔心如果現場的直播所有的法庭陳述會變成全民公審還有有非常多學者專家擔心"},{"start":79.835,"end":100.431,"text":"濫用處理機制也就是說現場直播的東西會不會被惡意的剪接惡意的操控輿論甚至造就地下賭盤製造輿論風向而且沒有辦法確認訴訟參與者的個資會在什麼時候在什麼地點會用什麼方法被不當的揭露而法院淪為秀場更是荒謬更很有可能變成"},{"start":101.272,"end":129.102,"text":"被告或者是律師的步道大會甚至檢察官跟法官會想要透過一些案件確認自己的歷史定位而且呢如果在法院的庭上可能原本的簡便雙方訴諸對象會從法官變成全國人民這些所有荒謬修法的專家學者給予的理由呢很感謝你們你們在你們的公開播送實施辦法裡面呢做了非常多的調整跟修正我們來往下看"},{"start":130.751,"end":145.708,"text":"之前還有檢察官協會提出質疑他們說民眾黨提出來的草案內容文藝不清例如說法庭直播定義不明公開播送的範圍跟定義也不明雖然提升司法透明度是國人的共識"},{"start":146.829,"end":166.389,"text":"可是当时他们指出不管是国民党或是民众党的草案内容都有非常多亟待商榷之处也就是说大家都在意公平正义大家在意社会秩序大家都更在意当事人权益也在意司法透明但是修法不是这样乱修不是这样以为自己修的都是对的"},{"start":167.29,"end":186.35,"text":"所以呢我要说当时在进复二读之际就有非常多的民间团体站出来呼吁除了不在委员会实施讨论之外进复二读程序也非常荒谬甚至到了党团协商的时候我们看到当时的国民党副书记长而且是首席的副书记长罗志强在协商的时候也说"},{"start":187.071,"end":212.544,"text":"大家可以把這部法案當作提振司法公信力的契機而他自己也解釋了可能是當時被罵太兇他們自己知道轉彎他們就說公開播送有兩種方法第一種叫做直播第二種叫做延遲直播哎呀希望大家不要把人民視為蒙古啦好像看到法庭運作現況就會造成審判不公羅志強說他要為台灣人民報區"},{"start":213.985,"end":240.583,"text":"我才要為台灣人民報區荒謬的修法現在司法院好不容易弄出一個版本來處理所有剛剛學者專家跟人民的疑慮結果還有委員嗆聲說他不滿意你們的版本他要代替你們操作一個更好的版本我實在是難以想像我們接下來立法院會看到什麼公開實施辦法是由國民黨跟民眾黨團公開訂定的非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":243.174,"end":271.706,"text":"我沒有想到他敢跟你講這個事情我覺得他都不願意面對自己的困境好剛剛是民眾黨的總召他所說的我們來看一下當時民眾黨的立法說明裡面他們怎麼說他們說至於所謂的適當方法要看該案件實際需求而定不限於將錄音錄影的內容即時公開播送也可以選擇延遲公開播送"},{"start":272.847,"end":293.695,"text":"我不確定國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員是不是忘記自己說過的話了明明說過公開播送的方法有兩種羅志強說了民眾黨在自己的立法說明也說了可以延遲公開播送而這一切都是他們自己曾經說過的話他們可能已經忘記我們再次提醒他們所以我要再度感謝司法院提出這個"},{"start":294.875,"end":321.935,"text":"法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法裡面做了非常多的調整來協助挽救他們修法的荒謬我來跟大家報告包含第三條提到錄影的時候要單一鏡頭定向定焦拍攝不得特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官我覺得這個非常重要到了第四條我們就說可以用適當的方法實施公開播送好中間呢我們再看一下大家擔心的還有什麼到了第七條"},{"start":324.211,"end":341.464,"text":"當法院審理涉及重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件的時候要審酌有沒有妨害國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或者對程序參與人以及他人的生命身體隱私營業秘密或是其他權益造成損害的疑慮的時候"},{"start":343.345,"end":370.256,"text":"而且不會妨礙審判程序的公平性的這些我們就可以依照這些來去公開播送謝謝你們排除了所有大家會擔心的事情可是回到當事人本身他可不可以主張我的權益我要自己保護所以他對於相關錄音錄影公開播送的裁定得為抗告所以我們也確保了當事人的權益再來你們還提了一個非常重要的事情"},{"start":371.096,"end":391.716,"text":"如果有當事者或者是訴訟的程序參與者提出說請幫我變身變相或者是讓我的樣子不要被別人第一時間看出來才去做公開播送這個應該也是經過非常多討論對不對不管是變身變相或者是去識別化不要讓人家第一臉就認出是我到第11條"},{"start":393.317,"end":418.496,"text":"你們還說當法院裁定准許公開播送之後如果認為有不得或不宜公開播送的情形法院可以依照職權裁定不宜公開播送所以一樣留一個退路給法院這邊還有相關的言辭辯論錄音錄影要在案件裁判宣示或公告後播出相關的時間點你們也寫得非常非常清楚了好最後一個最重要"},{"start":419.176,"end":428.388,"text":"第13條 依照本法所為的公開播送要在司法院指定的網站或平台為之好 所以你們開始準備這個平台或網站了嗎開始準備了"},{"start":431.22,"end":449.664,"text":"不好意思我講這麼多都沒有跟你講話因為我要說的是非常荒謬的修法國民黨跟民眾黨不願意承認專家學者提出質疑那現在司法院幫忙捕破網提出這個好的公開播送實施辦法確保人權確保所有的疑慮不要發生但很荒謬很可惜的是繼續聽到民眾黨的委員繼續大聲的怒吼說這個版本"},{"start":454.525,"end":480.938,"text":"他們不滿意他們不喜歡他們想要把手伸進司法院在公開播送實施辦法我不知道之後我們會看到什麼樣的播送辦法我要問的是所有剛剛我所說的事情侵害人權的部分判決後公開播送用適當的方法你們花了多少時間討論然後最後討論出這樣的結果可不可以最後讓副秘書長來說一下第一個謝謝委員幫司法院所提的這個辦法做了一個非常完整的說明"},{"start":482.299,"end":510.624,"text":"那再來就是說委員所垂詢的這個部分呢因為當時就是這個法律在立法院通過之後呢只有三個月的上路期那所以那個時間真的非常短相較於其他的重要政策通過之後的那個準備期那所以我們非常那個密集的就是一通過之後呢就是我們司法院的一級主管就是由我召集我們就把所有相關的這一些可能的就是不管是在"},{"start":511.124,"end":528.17,"text":"技術面或者是說在怎麼個可以讓讓他那個一個減低最低衝擊就是可以確保這些當事人的那個權利跟審判的這個公正性方面朝這個方向去做了一個修法然後之後就是這個"},{"start":531.411,"end":554.913,"text":"主責的那個私刑廳呢就依我們所討論的這一些那個方向你的一個草案然後之後分別在8月26跟9月5號的時候呢去會就是司法院內的個廳那還有相關的這些法院像那個最高法院最高刑或者是那個懲戒法院讓他們表示意見那他們也非常周延的回饋了我們很多豐富的那個資料"},{"start":555.734,"end":584.411,"text":"那我們就是在做了一個修正之後呢提出了一個版本在9月24號預告那預告各界沒有意見我們內部又再做了一次討論之後才那個訂稿那我稍微花一點時間補充就是說因為有那個委員關心說為什麼我們沒有提出那個院會那我想說明的是因為依那個司法院會司法院的那個會議規則第4條就是議決事項他並沒有包括就是這個行政命令"},{"start":585.231,"end":601.29,"text":"這是不經過院會的那司法院的這樣子的一個規定呢他也不是獨特的他是像行政院跟監察院他們也是採取一樣的那個規定那最後我要強調的是就是說我覺得立法權跟那個司法權呢"},{"start":602.031,"end":629.284,"text":"我覺得是彼此那個尊重然後就是在憲政底下我們這個辦法呢它絕對是依照母法的那個授權規定那個底下就是來做一個規定雖然司法院當時在政策面我們是才反對那但是立法院一通過之後呢我們絕對是尊重那但是前提就是最終判決跟司法行政呢司法院要付最終的結果所以我們是為了一個最妥適的結果所做的這樣一個辦法以上"},{"start":629.864,"end":650.609,"text":"好 謝謝副秘書長的說明我時間到了但是我想我就用一句話做結論這一屆立法院一直以來都是藍白在製造問題而民進黨團跟所有的行政機關都在努力解決問題如同剛剛副秘書長您所說的兩院應該要互相尊重但很可惜的是有的立法委員以為自己很大"},{"start":651.94,"end":673.99,"text":"而且比司法院更大所以他認為你們的行政命令在母法授權可以的允許的情況下他們還是要動手改相關實施辦法我不確定之後這樣的程序主席您要怎麼處理不過我希望我還是要再度呼籲所有的藍白立法委員對於這個行政命令如果有任何的意見或者是你們認為這個版本不是你們原本所要的那我認為應該"},{"start":675.711,"end":693.664,"text":"當時在修法的時候就應該要好好討論我們絕對贊成陽光照進法庭我們絕對贊成更多司法透明但絕對不是用荒謬粗糙而且沒有邏輯的修法現在甚至還要伸手干預行政命令的方法來維護所謂的司法透明以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913119fbf703b7c7cb33be06babd869ba0a26f9ed453590123b76b3930739f4ced85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:19:06 - 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麻煩有請司法院副秘書長委員早副秘書長早 延續上一次承諾質詢的主題 你們答應我"},{"start":18.757,"end":44.633,"text":"要把你們比對的結果要提供給我因為之前說尊照辦理黃委員真的不好意思先請稍待一下因為剛剛又是我的疏失那麼我還要再宣告今天委員的詢答時間本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長然後上午10點30分截止發言登記那就請黃委員先開始 謝謝"},{"start":46.354,"end":49.605,"text":"沒有關係延續上一次質詢的主題因為"},{"start":51.007,"end":79.691,"text":"之前問你115年施政計畫綱要跟114年施政計畫綱要我要你們回去比對你跟我說遵照辦理上一次講了一堆理由為什麼會大量的重複但是就拒絕提供比對的結果我們上次詢答的時候最後浪費了非常多的時間在這件事情上我今天不想再浪費任何時間了我只有一個問題比對的結果願不願意提供"},{"start":82.608,"end":107.49,"text":"那個報告委員在那個委員10月22號質詢就是本院的那個施政計畫兩個年度有沒有高度重疊之後呢那本院也以那個教育部的那個成功文章相似度比對系統來協助那個檢驗文本那那個檢驗的結果呢因為就是這個系統他是供那個學術使用的他是在偵測論文有沒有抄襲他事實上在講的是一個"},{"start":108.13,"end":134.499,"text":"對不起啊 我只問你比對的結果有沒有要提供我不要浪費時間在這件事上比對結果已經在那個十月底的之後已經有提供給委員了你講的是我貼出來這個嗎是的就講一堆官話就是沒有要比對沒有關係啦 你的態度很清楚了我也知道今天我沒有要在這件事情上面浪費時間啊因為你們不提供也沒有關係啊我就自己做比對嘛一模一樣的東西"},{"start":136.978,"end":159.565,"text":"這麼簡單不用複雜的電腦軟體啦左邊右邊兩個相對一模一樣的字句用螢光筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標長得一模一樣嘛這不是封面啦這是內文啦這是內文啦請你們提供答應要提供不提供沒有關係"},{"start":161.431,"end":188.451,"text":"司法院院會之前我說院會的紀錄願不願意公開你們跟我說願意公開最後也公開了我覺得非常好為什麼我覺得非常好司法透明嘛公眾才可以檢驗嘛那真的公布了以後大家也才知道司法院的會議沒有按照司法院會議規則每個月開一次嘛"},{"start":189.454,"end":217.429,"text":"原則上每個月開一次必要時可以加開過去三年每一年開四次大概一季開一次那每一次會怎麼開的我其實非常有興趣所以我就進去看了2024年施政計畫綱要司法院的會議會議的時間八分鐘八分鐘那天只有一個會議主題就是討論2024年司法院施政計畫綱要"},{"start":219.312,"end":236.238,"text":"那可能是會前的準備啊非常的充分大家藉由歷次的會前會各廳式的討論已經充分的溝通交換意見了所以那一次8月16號禮拜三上午10點司法院201次會議紀錄裡面開會的時間到10點8分就散會了"},{"start":242.915,"end":270.011,"text":"2024年的施政計畫綱要是透過8分鐘的時間討論通過的那我就很好奇啊好奇這個施政計畫綱要因為我如果比對2024 2025兩者之間相似的比例啊高達九成以上那我又再看了一下你們2023跟2024就再往前一年嘛施政計畫的綱要我看到了一模一樣又跟前面一樣繼續抄"},{"start":272.792,"end":285.164,"text":"繼續抄這個比對一點都不複雜既然是用抄的跟我上次質詢的時候所提出來的事情一樣沒有什麼好懷疑的因為是用抄的用8分鐘的時間討論剛剛好而已今天"},{"start":289.315,"end":307.703,"text":"我們的主席啊針對有關於憲法訴訟法相關的條文提出修正討論條文的時候我們再來討論我第一個問題是憲法訴訟法第17條說憲法法院應將申請書送達相對人請問這條規範的意思是什麼這個我請那個廳長回覆好嗎好可以來請廳長這條規範的意思是什麼"},{"start":317.974,"end":343.239,"text":"有關於那個憲法訴訟法第17條的規範議旨是在給予相對人就是知悉申請人所提出的意見那為什麼要用宋達的因為這個我知道那個您廳長嘛我知道廳長應該程序法學訴訟法學造詞都非常的深"},{"start":344.617,"end":371.05,"text":"第一個是我們在討論有關於程序基本權的時候程序基本權收受送達的權利就是要讓他知道裡面的內容嘛這個是程序基本權所當然當事者權的核心啊當事者權的核心跟在場見證權還有見證越覽權共同成為當事者權核心當中的核心啊這個收受送達的權利啊憲法法院"},{"start":372.318,"end":387.723,"text":"有按照這個法條在進行嗎依照該規定的話憲法法庭是應將申請訴訟如果沒有送達呢如果沒有送達會產生什麼樣法律的效果"},{"start":391.301,"end":416.835,"text":"這個部分的那個法律效果在個案上面在個案上面或許會需要是個案的情形而定就很簡單嘛今天有人申請嘛申請人的申請書應該送給相對人嘛相對人說我沒有收到啊到開庭的時候開延遲辯論的時候相對人還是說我沒有收到啊那這個時候憲法法庭該怎麼辦"},{"start":418.851,"end":444.499,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個部分的效果那會大法官這個部分會依照他們審議的職權去判斷對不起 這個是空話啦這個真的是空話我們訴訟法上面如果有規範程序上面所應該進行的程序那程序如果沒有遵行的時候那應該要怎麼做這個是我的問題啊"},{"start":446.363,"end":466.946,"text":"在訴訟法上面一定有訴訟法的效果啊如果沒有訴訟法的效果憲法訴訟法17條不就成為拒文了嗎請問訴訟法的效果是什麼個案判斷如果委員在這個地方提到訴訟法上面的部分的話那我們現在在討論的不就是憲法訴訟法嗎"},{"start":468.374,"end":494.281,"text":"是 在訴訟法上面如果說相對人已經可能可以知悉就是申請人的申請意旨的話那或許在這個部分可以作為補正來來來 17條 應將申請訴訟達給相對人這是法院在踐行給相對人程序基本權的保障跟落實的時候的核心條文"},{"start":496.013,"end":521.116,"text":"收受申請文書的送達我才知道他申請了什麼我才知道我防禦的對象防禦的範圍不管在刑事訴訟 民事訴訟 憲法訴訟 道理一模一樣當然為什麼今天特別提這件事去年舉行憲法訴訟的時候我是代表立法院的相對人"},{"start":522.489,"end":549.714,"text":"我跟審判長表示啊我根本沒有收到申請書啊審判長說你可以上網去看啊可以上網去看上網上面有公告公告你可以自己去看啊那我的問題來啦我學訴訟法學這麼久啊原來我們對當事人收受送達通知的權利變成的是自己要上網去看我完全聽不懂"},{"start":551.924,"end":578.903,"text":"這個是我們憲法法庭所表現出來在落實程序基本權的態度嗎委員該部分在該案中審判長已經有所指示是那書記聽這邊作為一個補助單位我們不宜再做多對阿但是他的指示阿就是一個最錯誤的示範他的指示就是一個最錯誤的示範一個要捍衛憲法價值的憲法法庭"},{"start":581.595,"end":605.914,"text":"連憲法訴訟法都不遵守這就是我提出質疑的地方為什麼這件事情跟翁委員今天所提出來修正的草案有關係因為他要我上網去看嘛我的確有上網去看啊但上網去看的時候沒有復建沒有復建 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有請劉次長請劉次長委員好"},{"start":6.795,"end":30.676,"text":"市長早您過去在明星科大任內最引以為傲的就是推動所謂的半導體產學專班被視為私校生存的模範生但是今天您換個角色成為了主管機關面對現在失控的學工亂象甚至有外籍生因為公安意外而喪命像是黎明技術學院的案子請問一下您怎麼看"},{"start":32.711,"end":61.817,"text":"第一个我过去当校长的时候在推动在招生的时候我们都会要求不管是系所还有我们的实习的厂家一定第一个要签约第二个我们要确保学生的去实习的资格我们一定我们而且连他们的实习的条件跟我们的学校都应该而且要必须去了解是否合乎我们的这个安全的措施那"},{"start":62.797,"end":90.248,"text":"是不是有我们大学端比较少有学工的部分所以我们觉得我不同意是说有沦为学工的疑虑因为其实老实讲您的成功案例反而某个程度上变成教育部纵容的借口那您也曾经在明星科大上面说过说大学就是人才培育的场域强调说入学及就业"},{"start":90.928,"end":108.693,"text":"但是監察院報告現在指出大量後段私校畫虎不成反內犬勾結仲介讓外籍生悲哉來台每週公讀超過40個小時把學生變成廉價的非典型勞工其具體說明要如何修正實習課程的審核標準"},{"start":112.074,"end":134.63,"text":"跟委員報告事實上在來我教育部之前我自己當校長也被教育部所督導事實上我們教育部都有在實地去訪試去做教育品質查核那我們一再強調任何的學生你要有工作證才能出去實習跟打工不管是實習或打工總時數絕對不能超過我再強調絕對不能超過40"},{"start":137.412,"end":153.167,"text":"也不能做大夜班的加班然后如果有查到我们一定会列入专府所以你认为现在的审核标准不需要修正吗什么现在的实习课程的审核标准是不需要任何程度的修正您是这样认为的吗"},{"start":153.962,"end":177.906,"text":"现在如果已经实习之后除非有哪些偏颇的地方您是说不要超过40小时吗应该是这样讲是否能承诺未来所有的产学专班的实习合约必须笔照劳基法建立薪资直接入户尤其对外居生境界重建精手而且实习场域安全个别评估的强制机制呢"},{"start":178.342,"end":198.726,"text":"有,我们找现在目前已经在有了,我们也要求各大学在招生的时候不得藉由任何的仲介,然后甚至在寻找实习场下的时候也不得任何的仲介,然后在学生要出去实习之前,学校不管系所院校都要有实习,"},{"start":199.547,"end":213.656,"text":"那个都有标准的模式而且委员您确确最关心的是是不是有合乎劳动部所要的安全职安法职安安全我们都已经列入在里面而且事后我们也会去到如果学校"},{"start":214.136,"end":232.928,"text":"因為其實這些都是我希望不是通案因為我們知道我們缺工很厲害但是個案一直發生的時候就難免讓人家懷疑未來會不會是一種通案如果學校再發生學工剝削教育部除了扣減招生名額這種不痛不癢的處分之外有沒有什麼具體的退場機制"},{"start":234.11,"end":256.795,"text":"有的我们马上列入专案辅导的学校那个是对任何一个学校包括私立学校是非常严重的事情因为一旦列入专府就不能招外籍学生然后即便脱离了专府学校还有好几年不能招外籍学生对一般的私立学校是一个很严重的打击"},{"start":257.654,"end":277.481,"text":"好 另外一個議題教育部雖然在2025年雖然更新了所謂的AI指引但大多數還是停留在理論上的宣導您是電機博士很清楚大型語言模型本質上是在機率預測而非知識庫目前教育部的AI素養教育很多只是在教學生怎麼下指令"},{"start":278.081,"end":303.717,"text":"老實講這只是在培養被AI取代的人請問教育部在114學年度的課維調或計畫中有沒有具體的預算科目是來教導學生來逆向解析演算法的邏輯是否從你的專業跟經驗出發要求各級學校的資安跟媒體課程必須加入所謂的辨識演算法錯誤跟對抗成癮機制的實作測驗"},{"start":305.739,"end":324.393,"text":"謝謝委員那我能回答部分因為高中以下的私底生以我們強調是AI的應用我們不要取代老師跟學生的教學現場那我們是希望是提供AI的一些工具讓老師教的好讓學生學的好這樣"},{"start":325.194,"end":350.839,"text":"那以举个例子我们最近公告了一个RightAI就是帮助高中老师的批改国文作文那你刚才讲逆向式的AI的coding那应该比较适合大学的一些研究的单位那我们在高教室这边还有技职师我们技职科师也有一些专案的这就是我们现在会遇到的状况因为现在AI工具太好用"},{"start":351.559,"end":374.629,"text":"很容易上手變成是說很多還沒有心智還沒有完整的學生就直接使用AI工具去做出一些成品出來可是相對比較起來是剝奪他們的本身的知識跟創作權那我想請教請說明教育部要如何從教學生用工具轉型成為教學生駕馭演算法呢"},{"start":376.778,"end":394.941,"text":"是,跟委員報告,其實我們教育部是跟聯合國的教科文組織一樣,13歲以下小孩子的心智還沒有成熟,所以我們鼓勵的是用教育部所開發的專為教育用的深層式AI教育工具來幫助學生學習。"},{"start":396.682,"end":423.937,"text":"我們也強調我們也跟老師講如果老師要用其他的這種商業用的特別到高中要特別注意不會有學習替代的狀況所以我們目前也在辦有關於老師的這種AI怎麼融進去教學來增加學生的學習而不是讓學生的學習取代這一個方面的一個研習如同委員講的這一個事情非常重要所以我們"},{"start":424.477,"end":441.146,"text":"教育部從去年我們就開始去做這些事情我們這個部分我們會持續去努力有關於演算法 教學法因為以這個演算法的部分我們有高中的多元選修的AI課程因為這個部分"},{"start":442.086,"end":469.509,"text":"技术比较难但是辨识的这个部分我们会从素养教育就是我们希望不好意思你想要演算法就是我刚刚想要问的最后一个问题就是教育部如果在我们刚刚讲到只是AI工具的演算法针对我们现在拥有的东西但是如果请问教育部在114年的课纲或教材里面有没有具体的章节是教导学生解析短影音平台的演算法"},{"start":470.99,"end":493.406,"text":"坦白说就是教孩子如何看穿平台是如何利用变动奖励机制来设计成瘾回路如果连最基本的演算法试读都没有我们如何期待孩子能够对抗演算法的成瘾陷阱一句话叫道高一尺魔高一丈但是道总是要做些事情不能一天到晚只是说我们做不到对吧"},{"start":494.364,"end":516.072,"text":"跟委員報告我們課綱的話是108年那時候就是審定的到114年其實在整個AI或是整個數位的發展已經有很大的發展我們會透過教學指引引導老師"},{"start":517.432,"end":540.332,"text":"而在教学上也可以融入然后把演算法程式设计人工智慧的概念能够带入教学老实说我蛮担心的因为现在这个现在的世界重点不是你看到什么而是你如何去试读不管是我们现在看到的媒体试读还是未来的解析法演算法试读如果这一块教育部没有放在心上的话"},{"start":540.632,"end":557.056,"text":"未來我們的學子很容易會被牽著走我相信你們會跟我講我們當然有我們當然有但是我剛講過那句話道高一尺魔高一丈尤其是現在13歲的小孩基本上來講他對於AI的抵抗力是越來越弱對APP各方面的抵抗力"},{"start":557.056,"end":576.562,"text":"抵抗力是不是越来越弱我希望教育部能够把不只是单纯的媒体试读或者演算法试读很多不同的东西很多都不同的东西现在在资讯爆炸的年代如何去教孩子第一时间去试读是不带bias不带偏见的去试读这点会是教育部未来在怎么样教育小朋友的时候很重要的一块"},{"start":577.743,"end":595.697,"text":"謝謝委員的指教事實上我們從過去到現在我們都一直在辦理我們的資訊科技教師在職進修第二專長你不是教資訊的你過來上一些學分班這個課程裡面包含演算法程式設計跟人工智慧從106年就開始做"},{"start":597.839,"end":620.312,"text":"到113年已经办了46班一共有969人那我们会持续去办理那我们也会持续的跟进更新我们的课程的内容就是委员讲的道高于尺 谋高于仗科技一直在进步我们会把相当科技一直在希望老师在培育因为老师是教学现场指导引学生的最主要的养"},{"start":620.592,"end":647.614,"text":"我們今天是在討論說有關這個演算法試讀之類的事情而且討論這些議題因為現在老師越來越難找老師講你們大家都知道今天我們不是討論這個議題但是如果說老師越來越難找的時候那未來AI的使用期率越來越高那我只能說請求教育部在這邊好好討好好研討說如何在教材上面在課程上面在內容上面做出做出長足的長足的置入不然的話"},{"start":648.374,"end":667.303,"text":"對於未來的學子或對於下一個世代AI不見得是完全是幫助是一體兩面刃所以如何在這邊教導他們或是引導他們在下一個世代能夠好好做事是很重要的一塊謝謝林沛翔委員質詢 觀眾請回座接下來請"}]}},{"id":"165675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9134c38c6f303c366b33be06babd869ba0a43079a982cb9ebe06df76adf96966f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:39:53 - 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少年犯一些犯罪其實它分兩大部分我想複密應該非常的理解這一塊就有關少年事件 少年保護事件還有少年的刑事案件這兩個不一樣嘛"},{"start":83.854,"end":110.879,"text":"那五年以上的案件其實他會被送到檢察官那邊他等於是一個逆送的狀況跟那個一般少年犯輕罪其實是不一樣他的走的流程整個狀況是不一樣我想複密應該非常的了解那這個部分我就不多說但是因為我還是必須要讓大家知道如果少年犯的是五年以上的重罪的時候那這個時候會有檢察官出來來主導整個偵查"},{"start":112.119,"end":140.047,"text":"但是如果是一般少年犯輕罪那這個時候我們以一個保護優先的概念我們會讓法院來管理這個事情走向保護處分然後他所做的是一些比較非對抗的跨專業的合作的法官比較職權介入的方式然後避免這個小孩子因為犯輕罪而被貼標籤這個是我國目前的法治是這樣但是對於比較重大的案件"},{"start":141.027,"end":149.865,"text":"那這時候呢 甲官介入就是一個比較國家公權力的強制去介入但是我們剛剛講的小朋友犯罪有這兩種輕跟重這兩個狀況但是呢"},{"start":154.383,"end":172.79,"text":"犯罪之後前科的突銷多久能突銷本來也應該不一樣啊但是在我國的目前突銷的標準卻一模一樣所以都是走三年觀察期啦是單一一個標準也就是說如果今天這個小朋友進去家裡面偷東西竊盜罪五年以下走三年保護"},{"start":173.47,"end":188.82,"text":"但是他如果在偷的時候被屋主發現他變成是強盜施以暴力的時候變成5年以上這時候又會轉由檢察官來處理所以面對這兩種案子一個是走向保護管束另外一個是檢察官介入調查"},{"start":189.801,"end":204.06,"text":"但是呢 他們突銷卻一模一樣這個時候請問一下 複密你們是不是忽略了惡性極端重大的案子這個少年前科的突銷制度要有所不一樣怎麼可以用同一套標準 請問複密"},{"start":205.68,"end":222.562,"text":"好那個謝謝委員垂詢因為就是有關於那個少年的那個不管是保護事件或者是那個刑事前科呢他的那個塗銷雖然兩個性質不一樣可是他們相同的立法意旨都是為了讓他們復歸啊就是讓那個可以"},{"start":224.844,"end":248.072,"text":"所以我剛跟您提到 我也猜到你會這樣回答就為了保護少年 要讓他回歸社會我們這個出發點沒有錯但是呢 這兩個東西如果混為一談沒有一個差異化的話其實你們是不是忽略掉了一個很重要的觀念就是一個社會防衛的責任是不是我們忽略到社會防衛責任"},{"start":248.792,"end":270.468,"text":"所以從新北戈侯案這個案子我就看到了一個點我們似乎好像對於未成年的保護就是保護到極致保護到爆炸保護到完全沒什麼好談就是保護到底但是我們卻忘了去忽略掉有一些人有一些特殊的狀況雖然未成年人大部分其實都不會去犯重罪但是極端少數的那些人"},{"start":271.269,"end":296.739,"text":"犯了重罪但是我們對於他的觀察期一模一樣的話會不會反而讓社會上面其他的小朋友或其他的人反而因此而活在恐懼中像譬如我小孩還小那他之後要去上小學的時候我也會擔心啊他們班會不會有一個類似這樣的人但是因為我們要給這種犯罪的人保護就我不知道我小孩子可能跟一個有犯過重罪的人兩個在同一個班級上課"},{"start":297.885,"end":325.087,"text":"那老師也不知道就到最後沒有人知道要先去預防一些事情新北哥侯案就是這樣發生這麼悲劇發生之後我們卻沒有注意到有什麼要改變那我再請教你一個問題我們剛剛講的竊盜強盜這個也是有的是產案犯罪有的是輕罪有的是重罪那我請問一下殺人的話如果這個小朋友殺了人"},{"start":326.26,"end":332.166,"text":"那為什麼他跟竊盜的輕罪一樣都是三年歸零呢我請教你"},{"start":332.679,"end":355.387,"text":"那個包委員那個委員垂詢的這個其實就是一個形式政策的一個選擇就是說我們是把它擺在就是跟您剛剛的解釋一樣就是幫少年能夠復歸保護少年形式政策對不對但是我再重申一次我們這個邏輯是忽略掉社會防衛的這個責任所以"},{"start":357.128,"end":381.588,"text":"新北哥和那個同班同學目睹他殺了十幾刀的這個人把人殺死一刀殺死那我們關切的是對於這種動不動把這個小朋友是別個小朋友的生命於無物的時候那我們對他的觀察期卻跟偷個東西的觀察期是一樣的這樣合理嗎你對於其他小朋友"},{"start":383.133,"end":406.415,"text":"乖乖的小朋友或者是一般的爸媽你對他們公平嗎這是我要提出來請司法院一定要去注意到這個感覺否則人民的感覺會是什麼你在跟我唱高空講大道理我一點都不在乎你今天跟我講什麼我只要我的小孩平平安安的出門平平安安的回家來陪我平平安安長大陪著我我說真的我只在乎這個啦"},{"start":407.833,"end":424.019,"text":"人民會這樣跟你講所以司法院請不要拿行事政策或拿什麼復歸這種大道理來告訴人民這個人民不會買單的好 然後再來你說的這個三年如果觀察期都一樣那我告訴你你反而害慘了小孩子"},{"start":424.699,"end":446.229,"text":"因為我以前走刑事案件偵查我走了那麼多年我走了20年的刑事偵查我看到了一個點很多黑幫會用這些小孩子他就告訴小孩子反正你犯罪也不會被怎麼樣然後觀察期也才三年反而這些黑幫更喜歡把這些小孩子當作免洗塊來用反正這個小孩出事了換下一批小孩"},{"start":446.989,"end":454.867,"text":"有更多小孩子他未來可以無限的使用我叫小孩子去開槍開完槍之後打死人了反正沒差嘛"},{"start":456.002,"end":483.568,"text":"判沒有多久而且三年後突銷所以我們可以這樣做嗎我們這樣子做以為維持社會正義以為保障小孩子會不會反而害了更多的小孩子我覺得我們要面對的是司法的實務社會的現實而不是在象牙塔裡面講原理原則講理論因為我們是司法第一線實務的人我們不是大學教授所以當我看到司法實務有這個狀況發生的時候"},{"start":485.808,"end":492.76,"text":"我想您一定要特別注意這個點成少共犯以及成年人把小朋友當作免洗塊的這個問題"},{"start":494.901,"end":515.553,"text":"法官在處理案件是就個案所以法官有時候他鑒數不鑒你沒辦法但是您是司法院的高層你必須站在高空看地面你不能跟著第一線的司法判案人員就站在地面看地面你必須站在300公尺高空你必須要鑒零不是只能鑒數"},{"start":517.054,"end":540.006,"text":"對不對 你不是見數不見零的人啊所以要麻煩你們同時思考小朋友的保護以及善良小朋友的保護 必須要橫平所以我個人在這邊建議 塗銷的觀察期絕對不能一致麻煩你們能夠去審慎思考這個點因為社會安全防衛的底線 我們要堅守住"},{"start":541.041,"end":564.307,"text":"我今天看到的就是不停的保障這些犯罪者我們國家的司法制度整天告訴我被告的權益要保障但是我想告訴你的一件事我更在乎善良百姓以及被害人的權益要保障但是我今天看到是一堆人每天都在喊被告的權利我們是不是忘了被害人的權利一樣對小朋友也是你跟我說"},{"start":565.41,"end":572.639,"text":"要讓他復歸社會你跟我說要保護未成年人但是我想到的是那那些善良的小朋友們呢誰來保護所以"},{"start":575.202,"end":602.822,"text":"我希望師父因為你們這次提出來的版本還是一模一樣所以你今天不提一個修正版本你至少要回應我的書面質詢至少要告訴我你們的想法是什麼該怎麼辦如何兼顧社會防衛跟刑法正義的治安需求你必須要告訴我這個點我要在這邊跟您強調不管是犯罪的或者是其他小朋友每一個人都是家裡面的寶我會說我看我兒子"},{"start":603.883,"end":626.462,"text":"我兒子我跟你講 我為他我有99條命 我願意為他死100次都可以每一個家長都是這樣在看待小孩所以麻煩你們要特別注意就是當小朋友不停地在踐踏司法底線的時候其實我們就應該終止法律對這個小朋友的寬容了因為我的訴求對好人更好 對壞人更壞"},{"start":627.883,"end":654.045,"text":"好 最後就是30秒兒少證人的保護 請你們注意這件事情你們不能放任各個法院對於證人的保護讓各個法官去決定因為我到北院去看 新北地院去看那個走廊很小結果我們那個新北哥河案證人來 竟然跟被告兩個人就在那邊隔一公尺多互看然後結果這個證人回去被人家騷擾"},{"start":655.376,"end":675.497,"text":"我覺得你們要用制度來處理這件事情你不能讓各個法院各自為政好不好我跟你講啦只有能夠補動的是制度我們不能永遠靠運氣好過往證人開完庭之後出去被殺的好幾件又有桃園又有律師開完庭出去被被告殺死所以我們不能每個案子"},{"start":676.218,"end":695.629,"text":"都靠運氣 請全國一致搞一個制度來處理所以三個月內呢 給我一個兒少正能保護要點動線分流還有候審隔離的基準要有那個動線分流獨立等候區或候審隔離區或者是有沒有人陪同等待 這個麻煩給我一個這個要點"},{"start":697.61,"end":715.85,"text":"你們要完成這個要點好不好然後要給我一下然後還有一個開庭前進庭中退庭後保護的SOP而且要列入法院的評鑑我不希望還有民眾因為開庭然後出法院之後被殺死前陣子那什麼殺死加包案件殺死小姨子就是這樣好不好好 謝謝複密"}]}},{"id":"165674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9131498d0eecef4c0b0558ea7a01fa7587943079a982cb9ebe007496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:36:56 - 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是不是請國安會葉主委然後經濟部龔部長好 謝謝邱委員宣達 來請國安會蘇副主委請三位 來請 謝謝其實我相對不是很溫和但是我很堅定的有毅力切而不捨這個想請教三位就是三位對於台積電2奈米這個事件"},{"start":39.161,"end":46.448,"text":"那這個如何避免類似的狀況再再度發生 有沒有做過討論請問部長 請問主委 請問這個次長 有沒有做過相關討論"},{"start":53.303,"end":70.272,"text":"對 那因為那個法的位階我們已經提高了嘛原來是營業秘密法現在提高到國安法嘛這個發生當然對我們先進製程會有很大的衝擊影響評估你們也要去了解一下先進製程的部分那如果避免類似的狀況再發生"},{"start":71.732,"end":98.115,"text":"一定要夸不为那个叶主委你的微笑也对叶主委因为就看了一下资料其实第一个跟委员报告就是说那个跑去Intel那部分我有朋友在台积电工作那他是说其实台积电他们内部对于退休的人员其实在退的一两年他就会把他调到一个跟不会去接触到很密"},{"start":99.156,"end":108.157,"text":"你也是台積電的董事是所以他其實在一年多前已經被調到不會接觸到很核心的不是內控的問題"},{"start":109.491,"end":138.775,"text":"是個人的問題不是內控的問題是他個人的問題對基本上就是說他是不是有copy這件事情的話就是讓那個台積電或者是剪掉自己去查對於我們的那個技術外洩這一塊的話我想大家應該對台積電還蠻有信心的不會因為一個人一個人就會影響到台積電對先進製程的衝擊應該沒有那麼大對那這個1.4奈米1.4奈米我長期都希望說能夠在高雄"},{"start":139.275,"end":167.44,"text":"那高雄有兩個點 南市產業園區跟這個白浦產業園區那我當然希望說能夠分散就是說這兩個地方距離不遠那白浦的交通更方便那有五個廠已經在南市產業園區希望再有一個廠在這個白浦產業園區我想這個包括廣布長 包括葉主委 包括蘇市長你們對這個事情都很了解目前的可能性如何各位有沒有跟台積電提出建議"},{"start":169.299,"end":195.893,"text":"因為我都詢問過我都請教你們三位你們說好你們會跟台積電建議到底有沒有建議呢未來可能性如何我們是還沒有放棄我們還繼續爭取有沒有這個可能性第一個就白府那邊的話那個震動可能會有一些問題就是說它土壤的那個部分好像比較鬆軟一些那這個部分可能要請廠商自己去做一些評估這樣子那個是誰做出的調查這個"},{"start":198.275,"end":215.674,"text":"是誰做的 是國客會嗎像廠商對於所有每一塊基地是不是適合他的所有的廠房跟機械設備的承載他會做適當的評估這個部分其實百普一直有跟這個相關需求的廠商來做建議看能不能納入確實也在評估"},{"start":217.336,"end":237.886,"text":"所以白埔也是平估的这个场子之一继续讨论这个AI人才培育这个国外会你们预估2028有35万你们报告我看经济部报告说已经培养了10万人才"},{"start":238.905,"end":254.462,"text":"那人才有包括研究包括開發也包括這個應用人才所以這個缺口你確定這個可以在2028把它補足嗎而且這個人才35萬會不會會不會太少一點"},{"start":255.595,"end":283.002,"text":"那個主委因為我們其實預估2040年是50啦那2028年缺口35那35其實有分兩個部分一個就是說智慧應用這個部分那另外一個就是關鍵技術那根據那個速發部的調查在那個下面那個那個叫做數位記憶盤這個部分來講的話每一年大概會需求大概3000到4000左右所以整個加起來的話在那個智慧應用這邊的話我們"},{"start":284.142,"end":300.893,"text":"預估粗略的預估大概需要15萬那中間的那一個關鍵技術這一塊的話也是大概15萬左右各單位包括這個國會包括經濟部包括這個國會包括這個速發部各單位都提出這個人才培育的這個相關政策"},{"start":301.775,"end":316.734,"text":"要整合的應該是國發會而且整合出來之後你對各部會在執行的狀況你要有一定的管考包括會不會真的機械需求跟你培養出的人才沒有辦法match這是一個問題"},{"start":318.605,"end":339.826,"text":"这个我们都有持续的在做管考那同时我们也会依照那个速发部给予的那个AI人才数字是很漂亮但是是不是符合产业界的需求这个我们也会跟对我们也会跟工协会讨论另外那个高阶的AI人才啊这个招募的问题"},{"start":340.702,"end":367.336,"text":"你看你們國會的報告裡面包括未來三年重點人才調查跟推估還有數位經濟的服務產業報告這些你看看政府相關的這些AI的發展這個能力已經到了很吃緊那你未來高階的AI人才怎麼樣對產業界的核心需求能夠對應"},{"start":369.778,"end":391.118,"text":"這個國會有那麼更具體的說明一下就這個部分來講的話我們分兩塊一個是國內跟國外那國內這一塊的話我們會希望就是說利用教育部的系統尤其是在那一個大學這一塊那我們希望大學這一塊的話能夠提供一些比如說像AI跨域的人才這個部分"},{"start":391.678,"end":413.069,"text":"那在那個國外纜柴這一個部分的話其實我們也跟很多部會在做協助譬如說像教育部教育部他自己本身就有一個您提到國外纜柴我就繼續問你這個外國專業人才6000人當然今年是達到多少達到5700那你另外協助這個對接計畫這對接計畫你們要有1000人的這個目標結果一個都沒有"},{"start":420.607,"end":445.824,"text":"對接計畫這個部分的話我們113年的話有跟那一個部分國外的那個專業人士聘僱許可一個都沒有掛零目標是要一個協助國際人員對接我國產業跟實習計畫1000人的目標所以國際人才沒有辦法進來因為你是零我們這一部分還是有提供一些相關的一些服務為什麼會掛零對接產業的需求"},{"start":446.992,"end":466.043,"text":"對啊 你目標一千人不可能說一個都沒有啊一個都沒有原因到底是是因為我們這個工項的計畫經費有被刪減不過我們還是有在天然台灣這邊對於產業的一個需求我們有提供相關的服務如果他們需要人才我們會協助來延攬"},{"start":469.144,"end":497.328,"text":"好另外這個比較中小微企業要怎麼樣做這個數位轉型我這個一定要提供足夠的誘因那補助當然政府要協助補助那這個目前預算編列21是編列在中企署是編列在三發署是中企署還是三發署好請我們有個別的個別的經費三發署也有這個中企署也有"},{"start":498.158,"end":522.747,"text":"我大概統計了一下 整體的經費大概是20億是不是20億 是總和那目標是2萬家 那當然受理的狀況不錯大概有1萬7千多家那明年呢 明年這個計畫是不是會再持續下去會持續 會持續 事實上我們也利用了那個特別預算的部分 事實上也會有加碼"},{"start":524.079,"end":550.342,"text":"你看到這個傳統產業或中小型企業這個數位的轉型跟AI的這個人才培育很重要你看這個股票市場到三萬 將近三萬點那一半的指數都是這個AI跟半導體貢獻的那個傳產包括石化鋼鐵 扣件等等這個都比過去一萬二的時候這個股價還要更低"},{"start":551.919,"end":565.069,"text":"所以比方說你這個產業發展是失衡的所以如果萬一發生有人說的什麼AI泡沫化或半導體需求這個過硬太多造成我們競爭力這樣沒有關係了我很快"},{"start":571.306,"end":597.481,"text":"這個怎麼樣把這個中小微企業跟這個傳統產業的AI跟這個數位轉型能夠做好這很重要否則他們因為停滯在過去的那種競爭力根本沒有辦法提升嘛是 這就是我們政策推動的最主要的主軸我看不出有那個強力的資源跟協助或者預算的協助有啦 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先請述發部胡竹敏好 請胡竹敏委員好我先來說一下最近有一則新聞家長們很關心丹麥政府宣布將禁止15歲以下的兒童使用社群媒體不過有社群家長如果在特定的評估之後13歲以上的兒童可以使用社群媒體"},{"start":40.492,"end":57.277,"text":"科學的研究我們人類的大腦在20到25歲才算成熟所以醫界一直在提醒說15歲以前的大腦不應該被演算法來綁架這是非常危險的那會有什麼危險在我們負責情緒調節自我控制的"},{"start":57.677,"end":86.588,"text":"这个前额叶皮脂还没有成熟之前我们的孩子可能因为这些过度的刺激他会情绪过度敏感他会有焦虑恐慌会造成可能社交的焦虑注意力下降难以专注然后大脑可能会被这些短音影音训练成这个快感抑郁所以没有耐心对学习会有造成障碍这种种的这个严重的影响其实医界学界都一直在提醒但是丹麦也说他们不是禁止社群"},{"start":87.108,"end":110.176,"text":"是在保護我們孩子大腦的發展主秘密今天排的這一個專報主要是針對如何防範不當的短影音尤其是像抖音這一類的來影響我們對我們青少年的影響所以這邊我這邊先跟說法部這邊討論一下國際版的抖音這個問題首先我想請先了解一下"},{"start":110.836,"end":132.529,"text":"目前國際版的抖音在台灣設法律代表的問題根據我們的詐欺犯罪妨礙條例第29條第一項的規定在台無營業所或住所或沒有設立分公司者要指定法律代表那目前為止請問國際版的抖音設置法律代表的進度如何"},{"start":134.306,"end":151.208,"text":"如果是TikTok的这件事情那他们有来申请法律代表那相关部会正在审查当中所以已经有来申请了也正在审查那这个我们会不会有一个时间的限制我们现在正在审查包括陆委会经济部等等单位都在审查当中"},{"start":151.288,"end":164.569,"text":"所以他已經送進來的審查就是我們這邊要接手的程序了以對這個國際版的抖音來講他已經有提出這樣的申請了那目前我們速發部跟國際版的抖音這個溝通的窗口是什麼"},{"start":165.609,"end":187.67,"text":"目前有窗口吗他们其实在申请的时候有一个台湾的法律代表在帮忙那会透过他们来讨论台湾这个法律的代表是台湾在台代表还是他们自己的员工在台湾的法律代表是在台湾的法律代表那我们目前运作跟配合的方式是什么如果我们有一些管理的需要有相关的程序我们是直接请他转达还是他可以"},{"start":188.25,"end":215.657,"text":"做初步的处理他就是接受一些法律的部分就跟防诈条例打诈条例相关的东西他们可以协助那他只是接了我们的我们相关的文件还是说只接受相关的文件而已那目前国际版的抖音在国际间还是有存在这个所谓言论审查跟用户资料收集这个疑虑所以目前我们台湾的使用者的这个数据或是内容有没有需要做相关言论的审查吗"},{"start":216.337,"end":232.989,"text":"我們台灣的人使用這個國際版的抖音我們的內容會不會就需要做這個言論審查的這個程序嗎有聽說就是我們台灣的內容是送到中國的深圳這邊進行內容審查那你們有掌握這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":234.671,"end":252.126,"text":"目前我们在审查是针对他的不是我们的审查是我们的用户我们发表的言录我们相关的资料一般都是没有在看的没有在看他们的事前的东西就像刚才那个NCC在讲这个属于言论自由的范围我们大概都没有积极在看不是我们"},{"start":253.052,"end":280.383,"text":"我是说我们的人我们台湾人我们自己国人使用这个国际版的这个抖音的时候我们自己相关的言论相关的发表是不是会被抖音公司做言论审查这些相关的数据相关的言论是被收集这个你们有没有掌握我讲的是一个是TikTok一个是抖音如果是抖音的话我们非常的确定他会送回去中国大陆那边那如果是TikTok的部分这个就是我们正在研究的"},{"start":280.503,"end":309.742,"text":"所以你有确定就是说我刚刚问的是说国际版的抖音也是会送回去中国大陆深圳这边做审查所以你没有掌握这个状况那好现在也有声音说是希望国际版的抖音要落地纳管那述法部这边你们对国际版的抖音落地纳管你们有什么想法或者你们觉得应该要怎么正好就是我们陆委会跟经济部正在就相关的事项做审查就是它的落地审查这样子"},{"start":311.163,"end":335.291,"text":"好那這邊我要提醒一下書發部就是說針對這個代表的審查這個法律代表審查應該要加速來進行因為我們如果有相關的一些責任才能依法問責那也希望說對於像詐騙不當以及兒童兒少的內容我們要進行相關的管理那這個所以法律代表的設置是非常重要的一步"},{"start":335.851,"end":352.151,"text":"那目前也有传闻说目前台湾的这个TikTok是由日本来做管理也有说是澳洲管理那日本的这个国际版的影音的高层的这个主管呢有来台湾也听说跟述发部这边有一些互动"},{"start":352.631,"end":377.376,"text":"那這個部分呢我想我還是要提醒書發部其實我們跟TikTok這邊互動我們要注意這個分際畢竟這是我們一直非常需要去防範的一個部分所以對於這個TikTok它的中資背景是我們要很謹慎面對我想這個書發部本身也有自己的這樣的一個想法在那這邊呢我再請次長您也過來"},{"start":380.529,"end":406.235,"text":"在这边我想先询问两位两位认为这个抖音TikTok这个内容对青少年的影响大吗次长你先说如果它影响的内容部分的内容如果影响到青少年的身心发展那就应该把那个内容所定制署名的您觉得呢你觉得目前我们孩子在使用抖音这方面你觉得对我们青少年影响大不大"},{"start":408.15,"end":430.63,"text":"基本上我們是技術的主管機關那我們都會跟衛福部或者是比如說遊戲業者我們會跟消防官那些做一些討論那我想請教你們覺得兩位覺得現在的管理對於這個兒少內容的管控是不是有效的或者說你回答我覺得做得夠不夠有沒有要加強的"},{"start":432.025,"end":450.265,"text":"跟委員報告教育委員永遠不是不夠的因為我們都很希望說我們做任何的措施不管是素養教育或者是在學術網路上的一些措施其實都是希望降低小孩子被騙被引導但是你說有沒有效"},{"start":451.633,"end":476.602,"text":"有沒有笑見仁見智但是我們都是要保護我們的孩子我們希望說不管是詐騙或者是被錯誤引導這個部分都是我們非常要小心防範的所以為什麼我要強調為什麼對抖音的控管我這麼的堅持因為它有中資背景有資料審查的疑慮還有出現不當內容甚至對衍生法的衍生的抖音的挑戰就是我之前也在委員會質詢過的"},{"start":478.983,"end":500.692,"text":"衍生這種抖音挑戰對孩子他們的生命安全是造成很大的影響的這都是我們非常的憂心那再來我想兩位看一下這個圖片網路上現在有盛傳2025必看教大家怎麼下載大陸抖音還說可以幫助你快速融入這個操控的平台那其實我們的青少年就是這樣你教他不要下載他反而更好奇"},{"start":501.617,"end":522.994,"text":"那現在呢他們也非常容易的可以下載到這個大陸版的抖音喔那如果跟國際版跟大陸版這兩個不同版本的抖音其實我們都無法有效的管理的話我們都無法去管理到它的內容對青少年的影響那我們是不是乾脆就下架嘛你就乾脆不要讓他用啊這個部分次長您的想法是什麼呃"},{"start":528.03,"end":549.23,"text":"這個網址的管理當然其實不在教育部啊我在強調如果不管什麼網址網站如果違反了資料我們會經過iWIN的機制如果是有違反兒少法的規定我們一定會希望他們能通知業者下架如果業者不下架我們製客室這邊也會讓他下架是這樣"},{"start":552.738,"end":576.795,"text":"這個部分呢我想因為在時間有限我在這邊就不多跟你們討論但是會後我會找我們辦公室正會找你們來再討論一下這個部分段你們的想法態度跟大概大家怎麼做那主秘先請回我再問一下次長近日呢那個澳洲跟紐西蘭有傳出校園裡面公兒童遊戲使用這個中國遊戲殺他還有這個一級致癌物失眠"},{"start":577.996,"end":602.272,"text":"導致紐西蘭澳洲有數百間的學校僅值檢查並且有120間的學校暫時是關閉進行全面的清消那後續當然他們監管機構雖然表示說沒有檢測出來這種可吸入的這個纖維因此這個相關風險是有比較低的但是也沒有排除這個安全的疑慮那這邊想請教次長有沒有了解目前台灣的校園有沒有使用到這種這個種類的這個遊戲傻"},{"start":605.537,"end":627.796,"text":"跟委員報告這個謝謝你關切我們教育部已經主動去要求所有的幼兒園的教材教具跟玩具是否目前是有的但是我們會持續提醒而且是要求宣導未來的採購任何的教具教材玩具都要合乎這個表達所以是有查到也是有學校是使用這個牌子這個種類的遊戲商國內目前沒有"},{"start":629.958,"end":650.01,"text":"目前没有那其实因为其实中国制的产品价格是比较低的很多学校在成本的考量上可能会使用但是这样子作为教学使用作为游戏使用对孩子的健康是有疑惑的时候我希望说我们教育部跟各县市的教育处教育局也要讨论说像这样的我们如何来防范"},{"start":650.81,"end":661.161,"text":"避免说有安全疑虑的物品进入到校园影响到孩子的健康一定会的那就请我们一定要跟教育局处全力的来监督谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9132fccbf377ed2fdc43be06babd869ba0a43079a982cb9ebe0be04807aac789fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:25:12 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我們想今天主要是針對本席所提出來的憲法訴訟法的條文來進行討論當然我也看了司法院的報告在這邊我有幾個意見我想要跟王富明這裡討論首先雖然說在你的報告裡面還有包含剛剛的檔案局的主命也都說了"},{"start":37.575,"end":57.505,"text":"目前機關共同性檔案保存年限基準裡面其實已經有做了備註我剛剛仔細聽了原來它並不是修正而是說特別是就死刑品一部的部分它是做一個備註說那個部分可以永久保存但是我想請教就是機關共同性檔案保存年限基準它的法律性質是什麼它是法律嗎"},{"start":64.059,"end":79.19,"text":"還是它是一個行政規則這是一個職權命令不是法律對嘛 它基本上就是一個行政規則嘛是 對不對那麼既然是行政規則的話那原則上就是這個機關 行政機關它想要改的時候它隨時它就可以改啊"},{"start":80.114,"end":98.034,"text":"他不需要經過二立法院的同意對不對所以今天我們講說是這死刑評議部現在他是用備註方式永久保存說不定這也不是或許有可能他以後他死刑評議部他說不需要永久保存保存20年就好了"},{"start":98.795,"end":113.443,"text":"有沒有這個可能性所以報告委員就是結論上的話就是修這個在法組法修106條這個司法院也完全沒有意見也沒有意見嘛 只是說我知道你們的意思是說目前的行政目的是有做到"},{"start":113.903,"end":133.194,"text":"只是說那本行當然是更早的時候就提出來希望能夠把這個事情明文化然後定在法律裡面那這樣就那這樣的話就更能夠就彰顯就是說對它的明確性那麼同時呢也符合大法官現判字的這個意旨就是未來的死刑的部分"},{"start":134.235,"end":148.432,"text":"就是要了解當時法官所做的議決的這個情況所以我想這樣的一個修法當然沒有什麼太大的問題最後就看我們立法院這裡要怎麼做那麼接下來還有一個部分就是"},{"start":150.24,"end":167.578,"text":"對於這個書狀類的要公開那麼我剛剛在提案說明的時候我其實已經有講了就是為什麼當時認為說司法院的這個書狀類要公開那也是因為這個篇幅的限制基本上很不合理"},{"start":167.958,"end":173.625,"text":"而這也是屬於就憲法法庭自己內部的一個行政規則就做了這樣的限制那但是在你們的說明裡面說你們認為說整個書狀公開資訊會過於龐雜無益於憲法議題的思辨的立法目的達成坦白說我針對這句話我是有意見的"},{"start":188.501,"end":214.744,"text":"資訊越多越公開它其實可以滿足各個不同人民對於資訊的這樣的一個需求跟渴望你不能夠說用你們自己的憲法法庭的角度去認定哪一個憲法議題是對人民的思辨有利哪些議題是對人民的思辨是不必要的我覺得這樣的論斷是不是過於快了"},{"start":217.806,"end":237.438,"text":"那個要說明嗎好是第一個先向那個委員報告的時候其實世界上就是有設憲法法院的那個國家我們去看了一下他那個立法例大部分是歐洲像那個德國或是奧地利比利時跟那個我們查了"},{"start":239.559,"end":252.603,"text":"韓國韓國跟我們相近的韓國就是他們的書狀都不需要公開的那當時我們在修限數法的時候事實上已經有擴大了那擴大了就是說選重要的像那個申請狀這個答辯狀這一類的那"},{"start":256.764,"end":282.666,"text":"好 了解 就是說當然其他國家的國情可能不見得是不一樣不見得他們有像我們憲法法庭有做了一些奇奇怪怪的一些規定那麼我要講就是說如果說從資訊公開的角度來看然後更何況現在技術不是問題所有的現在的書類的各式各樣的檔案它上傳到整個系統上面不會有所謂的空間不足的問題"},{"start":283.945,"end":311.329,"text":"所以资讯公开这件事情很容易做到书状类公开也很容易做到它不会说是会影响到增加多少宪法法庭的负担而这样子的一个书状的公开我觉得真的是可以帮助更多的人民那么他可以更了解宪法法庭的运作以及在这个审理的过程当中大家不同方的一个思辨一个辩论的过程"},{"start":313.028,"end":328.658,"text":"那麼本席認為說這個部分的話是有必要的啦而且也不會有所謂耗費審判行政人力的時間成本的問題這個我們可能從司法行政的端有不一樣的觀察因為現在目前"},{"start":329.358,"end":355.561,"text":"就是只是那個裁判書公開他為了就是說這些個資的那個遮影事實上就耗掉我們非常非常大的司法行政成本因為必須把那個相關的那個個資就是把他那個遮影才能夠對外那個公開啊那這個個資有時候事實上他不是只是出現譬如說像王梅英這樣一個名字他事實上是有上下就是那個脈絡沒有出現名字但是從上下那個比對可以知道說這個個資是誰吼那所以"},{"start":357.322,"end":367.871,"text":"就是說光是裁判書公開這樣一個事情就耗掉我們那個就是書記官這一端不過就是憲法法庭的案件也沒有像一般的法院的案件這麼多但是這個是書狀那所以說書狀這些內容非常非常那個多"},{"start":373.556,"end":400.634,"text":"所以就是司法這部分的話就是你們在整個的這個系統的精進還有怎麼樣能夠讓剛剛講的像這個資訊要去識別化你們可能要想一個更好的方法然後去做認定去改善那樣的一個作業程序可是你不能講說因為我的行政的作業程序很複雜那這下我很多的負擔所以呢我有些東西我就選擇性的哪些書狀要公開哪些書狀就不公開那同樣的問題我想接下來請的黃市長"},{"start":403.116,"end":410.76,"text":"在檢察官的書類的部分同樣的問題就是對於檢查書類的公開的部分你們今天認為說如果說檢查書狀的公開可能會違反無罪推定原則偵查不公開"},{"start":423.528,"end":444.394,"text":"等等這些原則那本席要講就是偵查不公開跟無罪推定這個就是刑事訴訟法的基本原則那本席也這個認為這樣的原則很重要應該要維護可是這些原則也不是可以無限上綱對你們現在這個地檢署不是常常也會在一個重大案件偵查終結起訴之後你們也會公開相關透過新聞稿的方式去公開起訴書的內容不是嗎那這個就沒有違反"},{"start":452.876,"end":481.036,"text":"偵查不公開嗎就沒有違反無罪推定嗎對 各位報告 偵查不公開他要權衡很多的法例啦這案件的進行還有這個無罪推定還有整個訴訟關係人的民意隱私安全他所作出一個折衝的規定所以偵查不公開辦法裡面有的原則又例外 例外又再例外相關規定來折衝相關的法例的權衡所以我應該講沒有錯他有例外 但是他又必須要有個特殊的考量法律要特別明文規定 基於公義上的目的"},{"start":481.596,"end":509.231,"text":"他才可以做一個特別處理但是我們現在是我們現在的草案是全面性的公開是 為什麼要全面性的公開因為其實本席已經常常聽到有律師事務界的朋友或者說有些老百姓就會質疑為什麼看起來是同樣類似的犯罪事實的案子那麼但是呢最後檢察官會卻做了不同的的一個判斷可能有些是起訴有些是不起訴或是緩起訴"},{"start":510.211,"end":524.114,"text":"但是會大家會很confused不知道為什麼檢察官今天會對於類似案件非常相近的這個應該是說他事實非常相近的案子有些卻做了起訴有些卻做了不起訴"},{"start":525.39,"end":547.319,"text":"那我想檢察官的起訴書也應該是要可受這個公平可受大家去監督的就算是說你們自己講說你們內部有經過什麼復譯啊還有一個內部的一個審查的機制可是這也還是存在於你們內部啊外界也並不知道他到底檢察官今天有沒有可能有包庇有持案等等這些狀況"},{"start":548.399,"end":574.908,"text":"各位報告 如果起訴的話當然經過法院review的機制去審核不起訴或緩起訴事實上我們除了內控機制之外告訴人他也可以申請准許提起自訴透過一個外部法院監督立案來監控假官的不起訴處分書所以在制度選擇上不是只有內控的機制他有外控的機制來監督假官的這個不起訴處分的結果另外本期要講的就是因為我們現在講的是偵查終結嘛"},{"start":576.268,"end":600.235,"text":"終結之後然後才將一些偵查書類公開既然是偵查終結就是代表在這個段落在這樣子的一個情況下他現在已經這個偵查告一段落了所以他應該把他現在目前偵查的這個狀況然後公開這個部分的話這個會跟之後的你們說又會有後面的什麼要追究什麼"},{"start":602.196,"end":625.233,"text":"因為偵查終結檢察官做的不起訴處分之後告訴人他是可以對不起訴處分或緩起訴提起救濟的這個一旦救濟的話他高檢署甚至法院他有可能會不支持檢察官做的不起訴或緩起訴他會發回來我們地檢署重新再行偵查又回復到偵查程序當中這時候又要有偵查不公開的限制了不過就是說我們從整個的這個"},{"start":629.756,"end":645.223,"text":"這個偵查書類公開的角度來看的話其實就是這個部分最重要的就是希望能夠讓老百姓知道檢察官在相關案子裡面他們的作為是如何"},{"start":646.528,"end":660.422,"text":"對 那麼這當然任何一個政策一個法律的修正它都有利弊得失的考量那現在的問題就是人民對於司法就太不信任了總覺得很多的案子是不是檢察官可能就一手遮天"},{"start":661.483,"end":680.226,"text":"那明明該起訴的 但他不起訴對 那麼這個問題我覺得很嚴重那麼更何況我們現在講了就是你現在法院組織法第80條83條第一項 第二項對法院的裁判書有公開而且已經有講了如果說法律有除外規定有去識別化等等這些另外規定的話這些都是可以做的"},{"start":680.746,"end":697.732,"text":"這不是不能做當然就像剛剛王複密說的這可能會增加行政成本可是我想增加這個行政成本如果他是有利於讓人民更了解司法讓司法資訊更為透明那我認為這樣子的一個付出一個負擔其實是有必要的"},{"start":698.312,"end":724.412,"text":"對 跟委員報告 要監督檢察官是否起訴適當或不起訴是否適當其實訴訟法上它就有它的相關的監督機制啦如果透過公開疏內的方式它其實不是一個最好的方式更何況它會有剛剛講很多法律的權衡的結果其實不見得 剛剛委員提到很多人想公開搞不好有更多的訴訟關係的人他是不願意被公開的如果我們全面性的公開揭露的話是不是對這些人的權益會產生很大的影響呢"},{"start":725.029,"end":732.997,"text":"不過就是說一般的法院判決這個做成之後他也是都全面公開嘛就是說這些你剛講的一些訴訟的利害關係他可能也是會呈現在的判決書中他當然透過去識別化等等的一些做法還是可以達到所以現在法院判決書都這麼做請訴書也是在一審判決之後他也會公開"},{"start":748.632,"end":764.147,"text":"對 所以我們認為維持現狀其實是比較妥適的是 好 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我沒想到你關車這麼大為國防部的職位跟行政院的秘書長跟經濟部長那些人 柳濤濤啊 理事專家這種問題都沒有辦法解決國家的大政計畫你能做什麼我們後龍的部分我們會把它做好因為我們已經 後龍的部分後龍ok了對對對對 這個我要感謝你再來竹蘭的"},{"start":389.635,"end":403.61,"text":"如果你當過國化會主席的前政院秘書長如果齁由國科會擔任主管機關你們委託苗栗縣政府來開發可以不可以我就可以想出來 你們想不出來"},{"start":409.945,"end":425.714,"text":"科學園區的開發確實是由國科會擔任主管機關但是那整塊地要是科學園區所有都需要的土地目前的竹南科的擴大的範圍因為有許多的是私地也有一些夾雜的公有土地"},{"start":426.514,"end":454.695,"text":"整塊裡面出來了之後能夠做科學園區的部分其實只有一部分那這一部分要等完全開發完之後完成區段徵收或者是室地重劃或者是其他開發方式以後所取得可以供科學園區使用的土地你不要挨罵你跟我講我們都算好在等你你不要用這種理由我們專程來討論好不好我國外的主委來這個可以跟委員一起再來討論"},{"start":455.936,"end":480.373,"text":"你自己說你買不回來 你走整個龍河林啦我們也不一定啊 你到時候來拜託我們啦是不然我怎麼說話啦 本來南部的你什麼都答應沒有沒有 因為這個部分在桃竹苗大細股裡面本來就有匡列那時候在苗栗所需求的所需求匡列進來 行政院合定你要把它推翻合定嗎對 那南部的部分是整塊的部分我會整塊給你 剛剛也有談過了"},{"start":483.28,"end":508.579,"text":"你委由苗栗縣政府你們要多少跟我們講嘛所以我們有跟苗栗縣政府一直跟他拜託說這個具體的範圍要能夠劃出來之後我們會劃出來嘛還沒做你給我們同意當主管機關我們才有辦法劃才有辦法進行計劃嘛是那整塊範圍裡面因為只有一部分是產業用地莎伯給我多一點時間我這些事情沒說過請扯愛人好不好"},{"start":512.296,"end":535.071,"text":"我再跟委員報告這裡面的產業用地只有占一部分也許占到百分之二十但是其他的百分之八十也許有一些部分要做公共設施有一些部分要做其他的用地那這整塊裡面我三百公頃我們剩下台灣的肉地八百公頃出來你說你不要靠海邊的我給你靠路邊的"},{"start":537.059,"end":565.72,"text":"不是叫你們開始 開發費用的時候你們要的土地你們再來嘛那我們出了困難就用這樣來撒沒有 明明就是那些南部岸我困難一下子你們就同歸了南部的範圍 南部的範圍是300公尺全部都是科學園區那假設這300公尺裡面只有180是科學園區要看這180在哪裡我們才有辦法繼續後續的可行性你讓我問出來是"},{"start":566.801,"end":579.515,"text":"你讓我外出來讓你們自由選擇這樣算不算但是你們的主管機關部你這個條文裡面我們還可以再談你們要多少寫出來你們要什麼樣的土地寫出來"},{"start":580.799,"end":609.062,"text":"不然我們哪去動去都要用但是這個涉及到這個300公頃裡面所有的開發的設施不是只有國科會的未來可以做科學園區的部分所以它其實是一個整體的都市計畫的開發都市土地的開發我跟你講我們自己縣政府留有多少的土地開發出來的時候留有公共的土地給你們嘛民間的我們不動嘛你來談就把這個條件寫上嘛"},{"start":611.833,"end":623.982,"text":"與這個主管機關的部分科學園區當然是國科會做主管機關你委託給他 大家講清楚 不同說大家要做的 我不行 那個也不行是依法的問題什麼依法的問題"},{"start":627.296,"end":637.925,"text":"各級的法令我們一條一條研究你唯有給他兩個跟縣政府條件談好就可以了所以我們就是拜託管政府把整體的範圍用出來之後循都市計畫或國土計畫的方式來做開發這個是沒有問題的已經也有很多案例是這樣來處理的"},{"start":651.664,"end":671.887,"text":"不然我們管政府說很困難 你們自己說不像去做主管習慣你現在要叫我第一步怎麼做 跟我講清楚是為了範圍出來範圍確定出來之後 做可行性評估包含土地所有全人願不願意參加驅散偵測或試地重發的開發方式願意 願意 你們都不知道怎樣行"},{"start":673.356,"end":695.964,"text":"哎呦 你們害怕就對了你小時候來拜託我因為在科學園我說要拜託我可以簽了75%我才答應替你們推動一個月裡面超過75%是同意安全 現在人家不要做事了你們都不了解而且國有土地一大片在那一邊"},{"start":697.321,"end":716.073,"text":"空著浪費 你自己想想你的立場不想整體發展的一個立場好不好 這個我一定 你要沒我來找你葉子惠 如果我要改變方式的時候你要報給省政院 那港部長會請你幫忙不要變有藍色啦"},{"start":717.236,"end":743.989,"text":"南部的立委跟你講 你就笑嘻嘻的 我跟你要求你好像苦瓜蓮一樣 我心裡寒耶沒有 後龍我們會做好好不好 一起努力啦這個核定的計畫是你當執委時候送出來的嘛你當國防部執委送出來的 國科委啊 勇於承擔 勇於認識不過做行政官的一個資格啦"},{"start":744.554,"end":763.499,"text":"會啦 我們都一直很勇於承擔啦 但是還是要依法來進行那好 下來關於AI司法部的 我一下子就好我把AI你目前遭遇的困難補充啊 主委啊副主委 要給我擔當 要讓我來做啊不然你調體啊 只能說得很好聽啊還有經濟部啊"},{"start":774.266,"end":802.255,"text":"那AI新十大建設啊是AI政策裡面最重要的現在有四個部位抱歉啦 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注意一下啦不要一個產業的應用"},{"start":982.629,"end":1002.988,"text":"一個白宮白地落地的運用 我覺得這很合得來還能提升我們的一個經濟部這邊會有密切的合作啦因為我們從上游的大型模型錄下來你們都講會密切的合作 我看起來是各行其事啦"},{"start":1003.748,"end":1018.683,"text":"就聽聽就好啦看我們的表現國家花了那麼多的錢我希望能做出效益出來好 謝謝啊謝謝自己講的太久好 謝謝陳昌明委員我也請主管機關單位因為這個都是國家很重要的產業方針跟這個"},{"start":1022.167,"end":1039.629,"text":"藍圖必須要去執行所以在答覆的時候也請尊重所有的委員剛剛陳昌明委員說的是希望他的大細股到底要哪一個單位可以去當主席辦單位但是部長您回答 經理部長回答說我喉嚨我會做好"},{"start":1040.169,"end":1060.951,"text":"他喉嚨就已經ING進行式了本來就一定要做好的跟剛剛陳昌明委員所提問的是不相關另外一個議題所以我還是在這邊主席台在這邊因為我們經濟委員會非常的溫和而且是針對於國家的重大政策以及執行大家用心的來做詢問"},{"start":1063.353,"end":1072.318,"text":"因為這裡都有錄影錄影我不希望說答覆的部分跟委員的提問它是不相關的就要拜託大家一起為產業加油 謝謝接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"165688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913e204ab29446880afc4841f031bc0ad0afa443352b7318b89a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:51:13 - 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它會在我們台日漁業協定的作業範圍內作業所以說這個部分的話目前會不會讓外界會認為說我們其實好像國際認為說我們已經放棄了這個釣魚台的主權因為中國跟日本都在那邊聲稱他們有主權的這個"},{"start":388.41,"end":408.282,"text":"不會那這樣可以保證我們漁民的安全嗎是可以所以這個部分可能我想我們最重視的就是我們海上漁民的這個作業安全跟他們的一個撈權那當然在這邊最後想要請教一下這個主委的就是我們的海巡弟兄上次我們在10月16號的這個會議當中你們有提到說針對海巡人員因為當然除了你們在報告裡有講要調整"},{"start":418.604,"end":446.413,"text":"雷超的勤務加緊還有增加深夜圍牢勤務的這個補津貼之外呢也希望能夠在各機關的船舶海上職務加緊能夠修正調整是我們在努力對然後也希望能依此激勵同仁的士氣跟劉健的發展的一個意願那也希望說能夠在您的最後的結語希望說財政跟人力需持續的補足那請問一下主委您對於合理的"},{"start":446.909,"end":476.052,"text":"这个舰船人才的津贴的修正建议的具体的调幅大概是多少跟委员报告就是说我们现在海上勤务加急已经36年没有调了对那所以你们具体的这个增加的幅度大概是多少舰队目前有一个数字我会后再给委员我怕说了以后那可能就是要我想要知道你们因为事实上上次您记不记得我在这个质询的时候有跟你提到"},{"start":476.468,"end":495.022,"text":"其實海巡人員是不夠的那當時你們當時主委的回答是說啊這只有在七八月份不夠因為學生畢業之後還在分發還在收訓所以人手不足所以收訓受訓完的時候分發下來就不會不足可是今天以你的報告事實上海巡的人才是不足的"},{"start":495.422,"end":514.973,"text":"所以你才知道說必須要財政跟人力的這個需求的補給所以說現在我想海巡人才是不是已經持續的流失了那尤其報告裡提到4艘4000噸級的這個巡防艦已經全數交船那這樣會不會有這個導致這個我們這國艦國造的新船會沒有人開呢"},{"start":515.778,"end":521.343,"text":"各位委員報告我們會有一段期間人足夠但是還沒辦法讓大家充裕我們一定要夠你不夠不能出海所以我剛講就說人才若不夠該補的就要補"},{"start":534.232,"end":555.263,"text":"像今年警專他只給我們培訓120個我們明年希望160個那像這個水警系警察大學的水警系過去給我們20個現在我們要求40個那我們本來就希望更多嘛但是他這個學校有學校在這邊也是幫我們的海巡弟兄請命啦"},{"start":555.683,"end":557.307,"text":"因為其實基層的海軍弟兄真的非常辛苦那人力不足該補就要補好嗎是好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913dfcdbded40b32784c4841f031bc0ad0afa443352b7318b89a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:43:08 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有請管主委跟張署長請到管主委 張署長林委員好謝謝主委 我改變一下我原本要質詢的順序其實從"},{"start":29.332,"end":48.77,"text":"不要說從從今年4月我們軍職的調整之後啦那延續剛剛上一個問題那還有包含我們這個警察同仁的外勤的0到6點的100每個小時100塊的這個勤務的加急來講其實那個時候行政院的人事總處長就有講了一句話"},{"start":51.166,"end":68.184,"text":"這個警察的內外情以及海巡弟兄們的0點到6點的內外情牽涉到不只警職牽涉到軍職等等一併的考量由立法單位監督單位來提升"},{"start":68.72,"end":91.586,"text":"某一个家籍的话很容易就造成失衡我想这个就是刚刚管主委你的最想要表达的事情是这个所以主委其实是想要提升但是要提升必须要兼顾到所有包含我们海巡人员 军职 警职还有其他义务役同仁等等的这些待遇共同来看"},{"start":92.106,"end":103.324,"text":"大家的這個工作的強度共同來看大家工作的危險性那一併做一個考量由行政單位一起來做一個提出來一起來做一個提升"},{"start":103.752,"end":126.423,"text":"我覺得這個是主委剛剛想要表達的意思那個結果才會有可行性那也才會有利於組織的發展那如果沒有可行性那我覺得對同仁來講你也沒有照顧到他你只是讓他只是說立法院這邊想要做人情給某個然後他會從升高的期望這樣反而變成不公平嘛他會從升高的期望到交"},{"start":128.824,"end":151.824,"text":"焦慮或者是失望我觉得这个过程对他们来讲我也很不舍所以其实重点是在我们会支持行政单位跟人事总书这边提出来的怎么样提高而且是公平性的提高所有的人的这些待遇而不是说我今天提高这个发现这里不公平我再来提高这个请问"},{"start":152.865,"end":162.997,"text":"我們身為監督機關沒有辦法那麼堅固希望海委會跟人事行政總署跟行政院這邊可以提出一個比較完整的版本讓我們來共同來支持"},{"start":164.212,"end":189.41,"text":"好 谢谢主委我们会反映那有关其他家籍的部分我们有一直都在检讨那跟委员报告就是说四月份的那一波其实处理下来士气就大振我们就君子的同仁就受到很大很大的激励那也有助于我们的招募那四月份的那一波也是很大幅度四月份的那一波"},{"start":189.97,"end":215.829,"text":"总统也做了非常大幅度的一个调整对这个我们表示支持之外其实另外一件让我们士气大振的事情我们明年也增加了17亿的预算在人事费很好我们去年度其实在省预算的时候非常的辛苦包含这些设备交流等等的费用其实也非常辛苦一度还造成两艘舰艇可能今年无法达成让我们比较振奋的事情在我们任性特别预算里面"},{"start":216.394,"end":234.274,"text":"那海巡署也得到相關的149億的預算這個是讓我覺得很振奮的事情在去年度很辛苦的狀況下那今年度我們的任性特別條例裡面包含對於海空無人載具這個我覺得因為連續三艘的這個艦艇的下水以及"},{"start":236.4,"end":245.269,"text":"總統副總統都有來甚至在這個月的時候賴總統還來為這個希拉雅號就是我們高緯度的遠洋巡護艦來命名"},{"start":246.84,"end":274.205,"text":"那当天也是4000吨级的救难舰台北舰下水其实在海巡单位海委会每一次的这个下水典礼里面那也让我们看到的这些无人载具然后还有包含海巡监测系统的这些建制让我们对于这些海巡人员我相信有了这些设备之后他们会更有士气啦是这个149亿请问主委这个在今年度可以完成执行吗"},{"start":275.414,"end":293.661,"text":"我们现在好几个项目都已经公开上网在寻求商情那也换句话说就是说明年的预算我们现在就一步一步在走采购的程序对 因为我们其实看到这些无人载具的时候我们看到这数量不够多"},{"start":294.221,"end":312.883,"text":"那有这个任性特别条例有通过这些预算我们相信对于海巡的弟兄我们非常感谢不是只有待遇提高会提振他们的士气我觉得这些设备也是真正可以提高他们的士气包括人力包括人力的缓解也有帮助好谢谢来我请张淑"},{"start":313.559,"end":338.412,"text":"我請張署長今年的紅太58號你剛有說這個在國際上會是一個可以被參考的案例所以立法院這邊包含行政院這邊也在研議相關的這些修法包含傳播法包含傳播法第8條第10條對於這些自動識別系統以及航海日誌這些對於海巡的這些執法的同仁有沒有具體的幫助"},{"start":340.763,"end":357.549,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告那早期是就是沒有開AIS或者是變更或者是這些變造部分我們是沒有罰則的所以它航經我們的水利的時候它沒有開那我們沒有罰則最多最多我們是把它驅離那現在如果有罰則以後對我們未來的資保是非常有幫助的"},{"start":358.149,"end":385.465,"text":"那他也比較不會進來因為罰則罰得很重所以他們也比較不會進來對 剛剛張宏陸委員也有講那遇到這些相關可疑的船隻你們已經有記錄在案的我也支持我們直接執法就把它驅離那最近的事情有一個軍事迷他在研究這些航道有一艘蒙古級的貨輪那他也是權宜輪那我們海巡監控的過程可以請署長來說明一下"},{"start":386.635,"end":410.775,"text":"特別跟委員報告那其實所有的船舶只要航經在我國的水域那第一時間我們會通報航港單位也就是我們的航政組織機關去做必要的這個廣播驅離那在廣播驅離不行以後會通知我們海巡組的艦船你會去做實體的驅離跟登檢那這一艘的過程你跟了多久"},{"start":412.072,"end":434.045,"text":"這艘蒙古籍的這個權益輪特別跟尾巴 這艘我們是從頭到尾都有關注的從頭到尾 他一共在那裡停留了多久你認為他的目的是什麼他主要目的是 特別跟尾巴我們現在周邊有比較多的這些像權益輪 那像喪後輪那他們主要用意是停泊在那裡第一個除了避風以外 第二個部分是"},{"start":434.565,"end":450.555,"text":"因為他也算是一種貨輪也是路邊攤一樣就是說他等急貨那晚了以後再進港這個一個月就有點可疑了可是跟委員報告這種的現象是很普遍的因為他急貨急完貨以後他進港"},{"start":451.215,"end":478.348,"text":"那這些船都有進港紀錄也表示說它是經過我們的航港單位檢驗是沒有問題的只是說它停泊時間比較久那這個部分我們會全程用雷達監控那有違常的時候我們會派船去登檢然後如果真的有違規我們就把它代案好 謝謝那我們支持海巡所有的這些設備那也支持這些海巡弟兄的整體的這些服務性質看怎麼樣去做一個適當的考量的調整 謝謝好 謝偉謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91330fdc5766d860875c4841f031bc0ad0afa443352b7318b89d511c68266aedb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:30:27 - 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管主委有請現在管主委你委員好主委早安最近這附近的局勢不是太穩定美國駐日大使格拉斯最近有講美國堅定對日本有防衛的承諾包含尖閣諸島也就是我們所稱的釣魚台"},{"start":25.683,"end":43.792,"text":"那當然啦 這個中日之間的一個衝突當然會造成區域局勢的不穩定那當然就會觸碰到釣魚台的敏感神經那 按照我們的憲法等等這些規定而且歷來我想不分藍綠在執政的時候都有共同宣示嘛釣魚台當然是屬於中華民國主權的領土範圍 對不對主委同意這句話對不對"},{"start":45.397,"end":73.563,"text":"我不但就是說在不久前我也公開在媒體說主權是我們的這個沒有退讓我最近所發表的政策白皮書也都宣示這個中華民國的主權無益那我要問大概遇到這樣子的一個不穩定的狀況大概有兩種兩種做法啦也分別在我們不同時期前總統都有實踐過這個2005年的時候我們陳水扁前總統就有到彭佳瑜然後去接紀念碑的這個揭牌儀式"},{"start":74.063,"end":88.4,"text":"當然就是宣示 順勢就宣示說我們政府對釣魚台的立場並沒有改變這是一種態度的展現 這是一種做法那麼馬英九前總統的時候則是講說用一個比較寬的心態 用一個合作為基礎的心態"},{"start":89.921,"end":111.136,"text":"他拋出了所謂的東海和平倡議後來催生了所謂的台日漁業協定那都是某一種層面都是面對這個問題然後宣示這個問題的一種方式那請問主委你有沒有跟行政院的平台等等或者甚至到總統等等針對最近這段時間我們打算因應這樣子的一個這個問題找上門來了嘛我們打算是用哪一種方式處理呢"},{"start":111.616,"end":131.341,"text":"我們是打算比如說像陳前總統一樣也做出在某一些時刻某一些場合做出一些強力的宣示或者是說我們按照馬英九前總統過去講的所謂的和平倡議呼籲說大家把局勢穩定下來然後大家按照國際制度協議的方式來做處理現在我們政府比較傾向走哪一個方向各位委員報告我們穩定海域的這個局勢這個是我們堅持"},{"start":138.871,"end":166.896,"text":"那在這個部分我們有透過我們所及的外交的行動來表達我們的期望那另外我們的最主要的工作就是護魚跟執法那護魚跟執法的話我們今天下午也會開會在這個部分呢我們就是要很謹慎的來做好這件事情一定要保護我們的漁民在這個緊張的局勢之中我們要做好護魚的工作"},{"start":167.496,"end":185.143,"text":"讓我們有派一艘大艦在東北的海域這個絕對不會打折扣那至於說國家要不要以政府的立場去做主權的宣示這就不是海巡署他要去觸及的領域了我們就是做好我們的本分"},{"start":185.643,"end":204.231,"text":"那其他的部分我們依照國安指示來處理本席是希望在藉這個機會喊喊話這當然本席是建議當然是按照馬前總統的宣誓來走本來我們就是希望局勢穩定和平過去也有和平的倡議跟相關的協議"},{"start":205.592,"end":228.579,"text":"照著協議來走讓局勢降下來恐怕是一個比較適合的角色啦這樣我想也不失中華民國的立場主權當然是我們可以稍作宣示但是和平更重要嘛我覺得這些事情是可以適時宣示但沒關係我也尊重主委的回答因為你今天不是總統對不對所以沒有關係但你有提到說護愚的部分絕對不打折扣這一點是很好的主權的部分我剛剛也已經宣示了一次好那我們就進入另外一個題目就是說"},{"start":229.219,"end":248.988,"text":"這政治的問題處理跟宣示是一種層面但是實際上包含你海巡執行業務的時候我們還是要討論到政策的核心也就是人員徵補的問題稍早我有聽張志倫委員跟你的質詢我也是問相關的問題因為審計部的審計報告裡面其實有講就是說海巡人力的徵補作業雖然你把希望的緣額拉得很高但是實際上徵補進來的狀況這個"},{"start":252.674,"end":281.051,"text":"好像是比較有限比如說111年度及112年度的軍職人力並沒有辦法彌補流失是淨減少的狀況113年到10月截止審計報告的結果就是說稍微有增補但是離你的計畫目標還有很大的一段差距那麼這個軍職短缺的總體缺口從109年底的47人擴大到113年10月底的867人也就是說我們都知道大家都希望海巡的人越來越多但實際上補不了這麼多人"},{"start":281.651,"end":309.371,"text":"這個人力缺口並沒有辦法有效的來補適啊這個 這個 主委啊我們軍人待遇條例修正之後啊這海巡署有沒有幫軍人加薪 有沒有邊境預算跟委員報告 預算的問題我想大家都知道答案了我也知道委員很包容我們在這個部分 我的立場委員也知道那人力的部分的話我們今年到年底會縮短那個差距"},{"start":310.491,"end":339.155,"text":"會縮短到792人就是說我們會縮短到792人以外這個是我們招募的部分然後另外EWE會撥補所以會大幅的縮小我現在就擔心的就是說你如果要把這個數字的缺口彌補起來你當然從EWE裡面去增補一些人力當然也是你可以講這是沒有辦法中的辦法嘛但是其實我們當然希望海巡現在的角色其實是最吃重的嘛對不對又要護魚然後局勢又不是那麼的穩定"},{"start":339.995,"end":358.338,"text":"所以其實壓力很大嘛對不對所以最正本清源的方式還是從專業的君子人力去彌補嘛還有科技我們明年科技倒入以後人力會受到我覺得最重要的還是人力的增補因為你回復審計部你是這樣說的你說我的人力成長第一要多元管道經用這大家都知道"},{"start":358.658,"end":382.737,"text":"第二你要講人人都是招募員其實就跟一般這個志願役弟兄在募兵的時候大家都要協助招募的概念是一樣的但最近唯一能夠有效提升招募優先的其實就是軍人待遇條例的落實總統在四月份的那一波加薪已經有相當程度四月一號已經有 但顯然你的額度還差很多嘛你如果說這一波的加薪有效果的話"},{"start":383.137,"end":410.992,"text":"你不會要調151的人去補缺口我最近在算一個數字就是說如果軍人加薪到我們三獨通過的版本的話那我們警職要加多少 文職要加多少這是我待會要跟你討論的問題那警職呢 警職如果沒有加的話我們海上更辛苦沒錯 這就是但是海上待遇卻我們一段一段來解決問題啦我想主委也不會反對當然這個一樣 跟剛剛那一題一樣我覺得是需要配套我覺得是一定要人事行政專業"},{"start":412.052,"end":424.838,"text":"一起協商去把配套全部處理好目前這樣真的是僵局我就直接問主委一個問題直接幫軍人加薪有沒有助於招募的效果有沒有 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會不會有這個問題我舉一個例子好不好"},{"start":496.215,"end":499.717,"text":"如果以三讀通過來講的話哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼哼"},{"start":515.507,"end":543.906,"text":"警職人員要上庭做的事情其實跟軍人強度其實是差不多的嘛但是制度上的設計讓他有不同的角色不一樣職法的素養很深我問你的是工作的強度嘛職法的性質當然不一樣大家都知道目前當然不是跟國軍的軍職比以海巡來講警職的強度非常的高警職的強度非常高甚至跟軍職都接近或甚至一樣對不對有這個狀況對不對甚至於比軍職高還更高講得真好"},{"start":545.54,"end":567.546,"text":"主委你站不站著我們來修正相關的法令幫警職也一起加薪委員真的導入人事行政的專業行政立法一定要透過協商來解決這個問題我不反對透過協商來解決這個問題啊但是都沒有處理的時候行政權就只能夠依賴憲法的解釋先來解套我們今天在這邊討論海巡內部的軍職跟警職是不是有同工不同酬的狀況的時候"},{"start":573.587,"end":590.383,"text":"不就是在討論在協商嗎修法以後非常嚴重對不對那所以看起來修法以後失衡非常嚴重主委你應該贊成海巡內部的軍警的待遇警察對不對而且低階的薪水比高階的還要高就差很多嘛有私人狀那支持不支持警察也同步調整"},{"start":591.104,"end":608.632,"text":"我們現在要因為你海巡總體面對人力缺口的問題嘛我支持的不是再去單獨然後就沒有人事行政專業導入的情況之下再修出一個又有問題的法這個我不支持我絕對不支持一定無論如何要有人事行政專業導入這個非常重要人力有一個總體缺口你的招募出現了困難甚至你要到你軍警你要人身都是招募員現在我們二等兵"},{"start":618.857,"end":645.499,"text":"第一年的薪水跟講師的薪水一樣你把話聽完主席你總要讓他把問題聽完我會給他時間回答啦好不好我們時間也剩不多我們要收個尾現在面對人力征服的問題對不對你講人人都是招募員表示壓力很大你在警職的人力缺口你甚至要去找警大跟警專去調人所以表示客觀的結構來講你海巡有人力缺口的問題加薪是一個可以解決這個問題的方法"},{"start":647.622,"end":669.711,"text":"你應該不會反對這件事然後我剛剛還問了是不是有同工不同酬的問題你也講有嘛那大家就來討論請提升待遇你同同意這個方向嘛這非常的堅持這一點我真的非常堅持一定要有人事行政專業我覺得一定要有人事行政專業導入的情況之下才能夠有可行性"},{"start":672.312,"end":692.15,"text":"我從不反對你從政府的角度包含考量你的人事行政專業去提一個版本所以4月1號的那一波要不要4月1號的那一波就是有人事行政考量要不要幫警察警職人員海軍裡面的警職人員既然他工作強度都超過軍人要不要幫他們加薪嘛警職人員的加薪我們都正在做我們從他們的海上"},{"start":695.053,"end":704.125,"text":"這個海上加擠我們要求海上加擠不能夠三十幾年沒有調我們現在正在處理現在正在那你一開始就講這個事就好了嘛警察的待遇不夠高有失衡所以我要調整對不對那個不是透過修法"},{"start":710.433,"end":735.385,"text":"沒關係 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陳瑩委員還有張雅玲委員我們一起開了一個人傳碰壁的公聽會"},{"start":30.45,"end":52.646,"text":"那時候我們邀請了海巡署其實也有到現場那有自由潛水協會非常多在潛水的夥伴也都在現場提出非常好的建議那當時我們的結論是說希望我們海委會可以回去研議一個人船碰壁的相關的指引那你們指引出來之後才能讓交通部那邊去訂更細則的人船碰壁的規則"},{"start":56.349,"end":59.33,"text":"那所以我在這邊想要請教的是從9月底到現在你們有沒有新的進度預計什麼時候可以把這個指引定出來呢跟委員報告草案已經出來了草案出來以後當然回歸業務主管機關他們要去做"},{"start":72.774,"end":88.517,"text":"所以我們會跟醫護主管機關部門跨部會跟他們協商但是我們其實呢各個行動都同步在進行指引歸指引現在有進度但是未來的行動"},{"start":89.398,"end":94.161,"text":"行動方案更快行動方案現在確定了也謝謝委員關心那委員的記者會也讓全國都非常的關心這件事情因為長期都關心自有潛水我知道我們現在就是決定說"},{"start":106.027,"end":114.409,"text":"每一年的熱計譬如說三個月份的熱計那我們出錢沒關係雖然我們不是業務主管部門但是我們來出錢沒關係我們出錢呢跟漁會來合作那漁會呢就在這三個月的時候隨時在海上做勸導跟戒護安全"},{"start":124.412,"end":139.919,"text":"OK是那这个会会很有效那指引的话就是最主要就是说你要如何走这个申请的程序啊然后如何在防范这个必碰这个必碰如何的防范"},{"start":141.099,"end":158.352,"text":"那個部分的指引草案都做好了謝謝委員的提出那我當然希望這個指引可以盡快出來那也很感謝我們行動優先啦因為這是最重要的因為我們當初九月會開這個記者會這個座談會是因為今年五月到七月其實發生了三起的死傷"},{"start":159.813,"end":175.018,"text":"那這其實蠻令人震驚的因為其實我們海洋是大家共用的那但是呢當漁船跟這一些在潛水的人潛水員之間如果發生意外其實是大家很容易有一些摩擦所以海上的交通規則確實蠻重要的"},{"start":176.818,"end":198.05,"text":"本來我們是希望更早本來我們是希望更早說海委會出來協調啦但是觀光署說沒問題他們自己就會先來協調那所以就讓觀光署也先做協調但是最後的話我看時間也不能拖所以最後我們還會出來我們處長想到這個方法我覺得很好也給處長一個肯定就是說他用這個行動方案我覺得有效"},{"start":206.115,"end":227.706,"text":"好太棒了好謝謝我們還有會優先處理這個部分因為我還是要講我希望到時候的指引是包括因為其實國際上已經有很多參考的案例我們先把草案給委員好啊沒問題草案可以先給我參考包括說這個潛水旗的規範就是說你去潛水至少要有潛水旗嘛然後一定的大小一定的規範就是讓漁船都看得到"},{"start":228.306,"end":250.348,"text":"然后渔船靠近的时候距离几海里还有那个海域的标示要出来没错没错然后要放慢多少速度然后在多少的范围里面就要拉多近的时候就要放慢这个一定都要放进去这个我们刚好都有好对因为其实自由潜水协会给我们非常多的建议我都觉得国际上都做得到了台湾一定也做得到我们是一个海洋国家"},{"start":251.288,"end":272.774,"text":"從那個什麼時候開始我都還記得就是從那個保險開始是的沒錯沒錯好謝謝主委那再來第二個我想要對我們署長也在這裡這個就是因為其實最近日本首相高市長苗有提到他在預算委員會答詢的時候有說如果台灣有事可能也會構成日本行使集體自衛權的成立危機事態那當然我覺得這個其實跟台灣也非常有關係因為他們是願意為了台灣挺身而出嘛那"},{"start":279.796,"end":297.183,"text":"其實我們跟日本之間一直都有關於這個海難救助的聯合演訓我知道包括跟菲律賓也都有都是這樣單編的所以我在這邊想要請教兩個問題一個是我知道說今年六月在日本鹿兒島跟有一個美日飛的"},{"start":298.503,"end":324.266,"text":"聯合演訓也就是說他們是一個更多邊的所以第一個有沒有機會擴大聯合演訓的對象把美日非跟台灣大家進行一個更大型的聯合演訓這是第一個問題第二個有沒有機會擴大聯合演訓的項目因為我們現在都還是做海難救助嘛那我希望有沒有機會把海纜的防範一起納進去因為我們知道說現在海纜是"},{"start":326.027,"end":352.596,"text":"重中之重啊因為包括說最近美國其實也出了一份報告說如果台灣24條海欄都被受到中國影響的話那我們每天經濟的損失是17.3億然後呢我們政府會完全的癱瘓軍事也會受到影響這是非常非常嚴重的警告所以海欄現在我們在修海欄七法那相關的演訓我認為也是一個必要的項目"},{"start":353.669,"end":377.272,"text":"我這邊特別跟委託回答委員第一個問題就是有關這個聯合演訓的部分那我們現在跟日本 菲律賓 還有美國我們現在是在海上是有做相關的類似的這個聯合的演練但比較是單邊嘛對 但是在實兵部分我們這次也在推就是說希望能夠3加1實兵直接上去做好 太棒了那這是我們現在的目標啦"},{"start":378.693,"end":396.673,"text":"這個要做的部分那第二個部分就是有關剛剛委員提示的部分就是有關海嵐合作那其實我們跟周邊國家對於海嵐這個案件都有互相做聯繫跟做必要的這些情質的交往但是跟特別跟委員報告我們在處理鴻泰58的時候這個案例是在全球"},{"start":397.313,"end":422.996,"text":"非常經典成功的案例那我們也到其他國家去做宣導那我們現在也有很多國家到我們這邊來取經就是我們取締這個案件成功的案例扣船扣人罰款然後都就是人也可以逮到嘛這是我們可以目前做到非常強力的執法那我也希望海蘭七法通過之後我們就有強而有力的法律工具去處理這些人跟船"},{"start":423.516,"end":437.202,"text":"是那聯合演訓的部分拜託每日飛如果可以做到多邊演習我們現在正積極在推啦但因為各方有各方的考量但我們這是我們的目標好太好了謝謝署長的說明那最後一個我們想要請海保署"},{"start":439.281,"end":456.369,"text":"好那一點時間我在這邊直接快速的講就是金屯展演的部分因為其實最近有一個在有一個很有名的一個網路的網紅在拍法國海洋一個廢棄的海洋公園裡面一個虎鯨的影片就是當然借這個例子我是要講說我們台灣現在"},{"start":458.03,"end":480.126,"text":"其實都有努力的要輔導轉型說讓金屯的展演盡量朝向是如果可以避免就不要那如果是要展演的話希望是生態導向這個是我們目前的目標但是就我所知現在我們的耶溜海洋世界跟遠雄海洋公園其實都還是有相關的展演然後最近他們都還在申請展演的許可證"},{"start":481.047,"end":504.322,"text":"的展演以及新一季的那這就是我要問的接下來如果我們還保守持續的許可這一些海洋公園讓金屯繼續做這些展演的話我們是不是應該加言呢讓他們朝向說讓金屯展演的時候不要是那麼娛樂性的那麼傷害這些動物本身的可以更注重動物倫理的"},{"start":505.8,"end":514.015,"text":"報告委員那我們現在整個台灣有三個單位有景屯就包括剛才前面兩個提到的跟我們的海生館"},{"start":515.325,"end":541.681,"text":"那海生館現在也有三組當然海生館沒有這種比較娛樂的表演但是我們海保署最近這幾年有推了怎麼樣讓他們轉型那我們自己也有同仁會在平常的時候到這個展場去當秘密課就是監督他們是不是有違反這些動物圈或是他們在展演的部分因為我們也有在這兩年也有針對這些鯨豚的部分圈養的部分"},{"start":542.461,"end":563.992,"text":"是不是能夠野放或是是不是能夠讓他們不要去展演這些相關的動物圈的保護跟金輪保育的部分我們有在努力的推然後也希望各個像是有商業行為的這些專業能夠慢慢的轉型到以保育或是未來他們能夠回到大海裡面"},{"start":564.639,"end":582.37,"text":"好 謝謝那當然這是長期的目標那短期內因為這個野柳跟遠雄他們的許可證的展現已經迫在眉睫了啦所以我希望如果你們當然主管機關是地方審查嘛那可是目前看起來新北市政府花蓮縣政府都有意願讓他們繼續這樣做"},{"start":583.951,"end":598.141,"text":"所以我要講的是如果到時候中央有發現包括你們秘密課去巡查的時候發現這個狀態還是不行有違動物倫理有違這個鯨豚的保育那你們第一時間就把他們這個許可證收回吧各位有報告喔 就說"},{"start":602.873,"end":627.727,"text":"这些曾经被用来不当的使用作展演的这些保育动物或者是金吞目前没有办法也放回大海因此他们有需要持续被照顾但是我们希望就是照顾那么照顾的时候就需要资源"},{"start":628.966,"end":653.423,"text":"因此我們沒有辦法馬上關掉他們因為馬上關掉他們的時候直接會影響到這些金屯怎麼辦因此我們就是輔導他們轉型目前那一些我們認為不當的展演方式都已經改掉我們希望他目前的展演是以"},{"start":654.244,"end":668.223,"text":"保育為基礎之下以教育為目的的一種展演的形式但是我不是365天我都看著你所以我就要求說那你們也一定要有秘密課去所以我目前是建立這個機制"},{"start":669.605,"end":697.307,"text":"所以這個執照你沒辦法不給他為了鯨豚但你給他的時候你如何的確保他沒有來這個不當的讓他們做違背這個動物自然習性的這個表演的這個部分我們就是用這樣的機制可以啦這個方向我可以接受無論如何鯨豚自己我們可以確實的保育這些鯨豚是最重要的好謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"165684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913f6d05f75622baf87c4841f031bc0ad0afa443352b7318b8977988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:02:40 - 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有請我們的主委 管主委請到主委外委員好"},{"start":25.674,"end":53.562,"text":"主委好我們海巡兄弟真的很辛苦除了要抓偷渡的抓走私的還有查毒品還要應對就是業界的捕魚 護魚對岸灰色地帶的挑釁的行為這些工作量幾乎是就是一直累積一直紮在一起請教我們的主委"},{"start":55.036,"end":81.433,"text":"這幾年就是美國啊中國新加坡還有很多國家都用無人船還有運用海巡的任務上我們在台灣也在14年6月8月做過就是無人船的測試但是到現在我們看不到明確部署的方向還有海巡人員的工作範圍越來越廣但是"},{"start":84.555,"end":96.22,"text":"又人力不足無人機載具的無人就是無人載具的應該最直接的解方之一請問我們的海委會有沒有把這個無人載具的納入中長城的計畫目前海巡署對無人載具的規劃是怎麼樣有沒有"},{"start":109.386,"end":115.583,"text":"就是設定具體的時程因為我們今天沒有看到報告裡面也沒有說"},{"start":116.547,"end":140.868,"text":"好 謝謝麥委員關心這確實是未來發展一個非常重要的面向我們一定要趕上這個新的時代所以我們有新的計畫那也非常謝謝大院的支持委員也都有同意讓我們的預算有通過那委員會看到說我們目前還沒有部署的原因"},{"start":141.528,"end":154.833,"text":"是因為預算是編在明年開始明年我們就會有大幅度的部署包括無人機跟無人艇明年才要因為我們看到你們有測試所以我們都還沒有看到"},{"start":157.714,"end":162.48,"text":"所以說好如果是明年明年的話我們就要無人機的話都在訓練了都在訓練 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我要講這個問題的選擇"},{"start":404.042,"end":406.684,"text":"後來我們再去選的時候有一個改變因為我覺得每一個地方都需要去考驗嘛大家現在生活都變大人過去都沒有我特別要求要有要今天有"},{"start":423.633,"end":426.636,"text":"你這樣不可以讓人 我也覺得很奇怪因為教育的你不給他 環保的你不給他你登記都沒有嘛 你登記都沒有的時候第一年有 你對他那麼嚴 那就沒道理了啦因為我覺得錢不能給別人 我也知道醫生有限啦"},{"start":448.577,"end":451.579,"text":"有提起的時候,如果沒有提起,我都很糊塗,好不好?主委,我再跟你講一下,剛才我們有董事說到,我們的臨時案,臨時,不好意思,主席,"},{"start":465.549,"end":474.214,"text":"再一個時間給我,這個臨時案的時候,我們審計部說我們的每一個村裡面的臨時案,都差不多沒九人啦,都中間九成的村裡面都沒九人啦,雖然村裡面有"},{"start":486.122,"end":488.564,"text":"你如果了解看看,有大世代嘛有的世代只有六個人而已,大台有三十五個那大世代當然有差,那時候沒有人有危險耶對,因為我就是說衝刺,衝刺是一種啦但是你要有救是一種啦我要讓你很衝刺的,這我也真的很抱歉,要再做不夠"},{"start":512.982,"end":518.889,"text":"因為我們在那間店 要在那間店四年我們要在那間店兩年 還要靠國家的科技 貴 才有辦法現在台北可以退婚 因為有的有高生 都年齡不夠"},{"start":535.086,"end":537.089,"text":"我們這裡要去了解雖然是科技像現在我有聽到妳的解說但是我們要如何去突破我現在每年每年都有拜託太豪你沒辦法幫我們請教因為時間"},{"start":552.466,"end":556.167,"text":"關於我跟主委說的是,我們這個月十五日,剛才你說我們的靈魂一早來我們家,早上來我們家為了人的安全,無論他怎麼樣,我們當局的心在灰色地帶,我們都一定要救啦,但是在美國的智庫裡面,因為發覺說,他們的兩爸幾隻孫子"},{"start":578.132,"end":581.857,"text":"都會去改變去讓人不知道的時候你們認為在過去那陣子是有問題還是沒有問題你們知道嗎來 主委你回答一下議員報告我們有主流好感情"},{"start":595.794,"end":596.094,"text":"因為主委也在業務報告說"},{"start":612.401,"end":616.163,"text":"我們有看過有標準的改變因為以前我們就是說道沙你剛才的報告和你學完的報告裡面說我們都沒有查到也沒有發這就是有嚇阻的作用啦道沙之前有發再來現在就沒有這個行為嘛所以我們不去處理嘛"},{"start":640.014,"end":651.236,"text":"那是抽砂 抽砂 抽砂 抽砂那他就沒來啊 他想對 發作黨的嘛所以我們想就是發作黨的你看他現在不敢來因為我們要靠 又要發展所以他就不用來啊所以在這裡的規定裡面主委我也知道你們大家很辛苦 很勇敢的因為這個"},{"start":669.04,"end":675.183,"text":"我們一年以上的藝術就是不可以讓你變乖所以那個黨發下去 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主委有個問題我們這個海洋三法我們現在海域管理法我們的進度不知道如何跟委員報告委員一直很關心這件事情也一直叮嚀我們我們目前有一個進度就是說海陸分治之下它的大綱我們大綱討論完畢我是希望說你大綱討論完畢"},{"start":48.405,"end":70.166,"text":"然後要化為文字的這個過程呢我們就先來做跨部會的整合不要等到文字出來了才去做跨部會整合所以我們大綱確定的時候已經開過會大綱目前確定方向也確定然後要來開始進行就這個大綱就是未來的大架構要來做跨部會整合"},{"start":70.606,"end":89.461,"text":"因为这一部法律只要一制定,涉及其他部会必须要同步连带修订的法律非常的多,有好几十部法律都要来修订那其中当然最重要的修订最多的是内政部的国土计划法"},{"start":91.743,"end":106.723,"text":"當然啦也不只國土計畫法啦我覺得跨部會啊這個農業部啊什麼的這些都要啦我們要把這個海域變成一個立體的管理這個其實要耗費相當大的功夫不過"},{"start":108.334,"end":128.085,"text":"為什麼會一直想說這個法律剛剛聽到主委有進度我覺得是好的啦不然其實現在有很多山不管地帶可能管也管不到也沒辦法處理對不對像剛剛蘇委員在質詢的你們要自己去出錢對不對"},{"start":131.306,"end":158.083,"text":"這個就是變成我們一直在講要怎麼做怎麼做確實實際上是還沒有做到我覺得這個如果可以加快就加快另外現在有很多的中國的船隻他們是不是有很多他們關掉AIS系統當闖入這種情況現在是不是很多 署長"},{"start":159.066,"end":187.135,"text":"一直都有我請署長來詳細說明郭委員報這個情況我們是有查過過的是有的有沒有很多目前看起來這一個沒有很多沒有很多是就是至少在我們的水域裡面是沒有很多的在我們的水域裡面沒有很多啦但還是有嘛有好我們發現這個我們是採取何項措施"},{"start":187.735,"end":207.354,"text":"跟委員報告那因為在我們水運裡面我們除了透過我們自己的聯合清真真手段以外那我們也透過友軍提供不明船隻的這個動態然後我們會以我們的船去做辨識那另外特別跟委員報告我們有很多的這些暗船的偵測系統那我們可以充分的掌握這些船舶的動態"},{"start":209.902,"end":235.407,"text":"現在立法院也很多的立委在關注這個海嵐七法什麼的對不對那像這種關掉這個AIS的這種有一部分有可能它就是來破壞我們的海底電纜有沒有這個可能有可能有可能嘛 對啊所以我才會問你說我們發現了我們採取何種措施"},{"start":236.201,"end":264.463,"text":"跟委員報告那我們如果發現類似的船舶那我們現在主要的關注船舶是根據航港局提供的東京備温有97艘具有中資背景的這些權威輪那只要這些權威輪進到我們的水域我們會有一定的監控那只要是長期可疑的我們都會派船去做必要的登檢對嘛 你現在就是監控跟登檢嘛 是啊 有沒有想過一件事情我們的這個海嵐七法大家這樣很認真"},{"start":265.908,"end":284.842,"text":"下次他換鐵殼漁船來破壞你的海底電纜有沒有這個可能有可能跟委員報告根據這個不管是各類船舶只要有類似狀況我們都是查阻的標準都是一致的那我們現在海岸企劃裡面在船舶法裡面就有特別規範關閉AS他是有罰則的"},{"start":285.803,"end":308.192,"text":"我知道這個都有發生我現在就是提醒說狀態很多大海那麼大其實你們也很辛苦我覺得身為一個主權國家還是要有一點點強力的措施我覺得如果只有跟監看到情況不對才登檢"},{"start":309.072,"end":332.001,"text":"我覺得啦,對一個主權國家我覺得好像有點不夠,不知道署長你的看法跟委員報告,那其實對於可疑傳播,如果是違反相關規範我們是有權可以扣押,然後代盤偵辦的報警整頓,然後代盤偵辦那有可能你也發現了一些事實才有嘛,對不對那有可能這一個"},{"start":333.411,"end":346.361,"text":"嫌疑人了 有可能是嫌疑傳了是我們不能驅離 不能什麼嗎呃 根本沒辦法 如果還這個還能七法 修法通過以後就可以處理了現在不行嗎現在沒有罰則 現在沒有罰則"},{"start":349.532,"end":374.604,"text":"現在沒有法,但他關掉AIS的這種也不能驅離嗎沒有法則沒有法則啦,按能不能驅離啊可以啊,當然可以,我們可以驅離,沒有問題所以我的意思是說,像我發現這種的也不用跟進,也不用什麼啦我們是一個主權國家,就把它驅離啦各位朋友,其實對於可疑傳播我們會採取的第一個就是強勢的登檢如果真的很可疑,我們是會登檢的"},{"start":376.041,"end":380.597,"text":"那第二個部分就是我們會把它做驅離對啦我的意思是說"},{"start":383.186,"end":411.329,"text":"海巡兄弟也很辛苦啦但相對於這一種的政府要有一個強力的措施啦這一個措施我為什麼講第一個我剛剛強調的主權國家之外你讓在我們在海上的我國的漁船我國的漁民也會有安心的作用只要你有做這些漁民都會講他們就會安心我覺得我們海巡還有一個很重要的就是讓我們的漁民安心"},{"start":412.61,"end":431.159,"text":"這個是非常重要的就像在路上看到警察我就安心了對不對我在海上看到海巡的船然後有座位漁民就安心我覺得我們花了這麼多錢然後我們也要造艇什麼我們都支持這個就是要一個很重要讓漁民安心"},{"start":432.199,"end":457.618,"text":"尤其是像現在這個像我們東北角捕花蟹啊捕什麼的這個大陸的漁船 中國的漁船跑來這邊漁民是很氣啊 對不對他是跟他搶啊 對不對那我們如果有你只要有一點點作為有具體的作為我跟你講漁民啊大家就會去船了啦"},{"start":459.359,"end":478.229,"text":"護魚的部分我們做得很好那魚米也很依賴我們所以如果大陸的漁船進到我們的水域來我們就是一概驅離就算是你有開AIS你進來了我還是趕你走那沒有開AIS的部分如果說海蘭七法進來以後有罰則我相信那個嚇阻性會出來"},{"start":479.208,"end":500.584,"text":"我知道你們現在有驅離有做所以我才會說你們只要有做漁民就會說啦漁民自己會去傳啦然後漁民自己就會說這就是讓漁民安心有時候他們還來送我們罐頭這樣子對所以我說我也有聽到漁會你們有做什麼所以我才會說你們有做漁民就安心但我要強調的是說"},{"start":503.526,"end":520.036,"text":"該做的還是有的要強力一點啦不要一定要等到他到哪裡海域啦你明明知道這個灌飯了你這一艘船還沒進到我們可以的我們就先把他趕走了嘛這漁民會給你更大的掌聲啦好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9133f718deda737667450d730950bdd7c8afa443352b7318b89b6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:07:37 - 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主席有請部長"},{"start":10.134,"end":23.717,"text":"我也好部長好我想再延續剛剛有關於日本高四早苗這個說到的台灣有事就是日本有事的部分剛剛前面兩位委員都已經問到了但是我比較想實際的從合作的角度因為就像您剛剛講的希望我們都能夠展現就是日本挺台灣那台灣也要挺日本當然我知道現在很多的這些媒體上那麼很多具有影響力的這個網紅等等他們都講了"},{"start":39.34,"end":65.217,"text":"這個反正剛好領了一萬大家可以到日本去消費這個中國 這個要這個中國的人民不要去日本旅遊那台灣人民呢 就去買包日本 採包日本但是除此之外 我認為啦更多的合作可以從政府的角度出發包括其實這一次高市早苗在APEC跟林心儀代表見面的時候也說到了就是希望台日在人工智慧又或者是數位貿易當中可以有機會合作"},{"start":67.478,"end":89.675,"text":"那當然我們知道人工智慧可能包括這個貿易的部分可能是經濟部或者是數位部但是我特別研究了一下就是其實我們也有這所謂國際合作的發展的這個所謂國和會那麼國和會裡頭包括呢它其實是有所謂基金的投融資的部分言下之意這個部分它其實我有請這個國和會列出了"},{"start":90.396,"end":105.832,"text":"今年也就是115年度要執行的計畫當然有一些海外志工團的服務啦那麼有友好國家的醫事人員的訓練啊 等等但是在這個部分裡頭也有另外一個部分是有關於基金投融資的部分"},{"start":106.172,"end":125.745,"text":"包括我們透過這個方式來做國際的合作因為我們都知道中國的所謂一帶一路在他面對所謂的這個經濟合作所謂的合作但是其實上是經濟的入侵或者是建設的入侵的時候他可以掌控這個國家的"},{"start":126.485,"end":141.27,"text":"相關的政治從經濟去轉化成政治的影響力那在這個部分當然我們不可能跟中國在比金錢遊戲我們從來也不玩這一套但是正向的合作跟發展的部分我覺得還是可以思考因為我知道"},{"start":142.21,"end":166.187,"text":"在國和會的這個相關的合作當中我們當然是站在一種已開發的國家對於其他國家的經濟援助或者是產業上面的合作或者是農業 經貿甚至於醫療上面的合作但是有沒有可能在我們國和會的基金投融資的部分我們有機會跟日本像這樣子對我們友善的國家來做其他的合作那麼有沒有這方面的思考"},{"start":166.927,"end":194.887,"text":"有 我們跟日本有將近100個合作的備忘錄跟協議那我們12月初啊台日也會召開年度性的經貿會議另外就是第三國市場委員會比如說我們現在有所謂台飛經濟走廊要對接呂宋經濟走廊呂宋經濟走廊就是美日飛啊 三邊他們的元首宣布的一個計畫所以怎麼樣到第三地去合作那日本你剛剛提到"},{"start":195.907,"end":215.955,"text":"這個高知早苗首相也談到了包括不管是人工智慧半導體、能源、太空或其他的這些跟數位有關的合作我們都有在做進一步的研究能夠跟他找到合作的項目那我們台日之間也有經過"},{"start":218.836,"end":234.267,"text":"對方也做了很多調查知道我們哪些企業是可以做他的夥伴一起到新南向國家那有關於台日的合作我們的榮邦計畫也包括那榮邦計畫有三個支柱科技 資金跟人才科技就找出台日可以合作或互補"},{"start":234.927,"end":256.698,"text":"甚至到第三地資金就是您提到的包括國和會未來的這一個我們除了過去援外以外以投資的角度跟日本的JECA來對接再來就是人才尤其是這個能力建構這樣的一些人才的培育也是其中要去執行非常重要那是不是我請我們國和會秘書長簡單說一下他去過日本那最近我們在亞營歐營很多國家也跟他們都有很多合作的項目"},{"start":263.541,"end":276.441,"text":"我覺得這個報告很重要 攸關說我們接下來115年當中的預算當中我們是不是有機會跟日本做更進一步的合作因為我都認為 合作 投資其實那個關係才是緊密的"},{"start":276.994,"end":293.639,"text":"感謝委員 目前我們跟日本的JICA在菲律賓已經有合作計畫我們在加勒比海還有一些地方也有對接那是哪一部分的合作 可以說的如果是商業機密不要說沒關係"},{"start":294.699,"end":309.853,"text":"目前是屬於雙邊的合作但是一加一等於二就是說兩國合作到第三國這一部分我們也持續在溝通協調之中那事實上我們多年來已經進行了很多的多邊"},{"start":310.854,"end":332.868,"text":"的合作計畫那是透過歐銀透過美洲銀行透過咖啡那目前也在跟亞銀在延伸多邊的這個合作那透過多邊的合作我們的用途其實很廣泛有社會融資包括婦女父權我們也有環境融資包括high impact"},{"start":333.388,"end":353.965,"text":"基金的投入 那我們有傳統的基礎建設像港口 像道路機場那我們也有新型態的基礎建設包括AI Data Center這個目前有評估的計畫在進行之中所以跟日本的JICA還有甚至於我也訪問過"},{"start":355.906,"end":374.018,"text":"德國法國還有美國跟他們這些多邊機構的這個合作目前我們都是在展開在協調因為本席對於就是在這一個國和會基金當中對於援助當然我們身為這個被認為是已開發國家有能力"},{"start":374.338,"end":384.329,"text":"去協助其他的國家這是一件好事但是透過這個所謂基金投融資讓這個基金能夠更活化我知道過去你們的基金只有115億嘛那麼現在已經營運到154億我認為這個就是一個績效讓這個基金做大"},{"start":389.335,"end":406.24,"text":"然後讓他的base再增加的時候就能夠進行更大的建設因為我們知道其實很多的投資的建設這個基金成本是非常重要的所以本席在這邊是給予支持跟肯定但是還是希望在這些合作當中能夠感受到的是"},{"start":407.02,"end":426.771,"text":"友邦挺我們而我們給予友邦因為包括像現在的所謂AI半導體等等這些部分的產業鏈的合作我相信其他國家對於台灣的需要絕對不是只是在所謂地緣政治上面經濟上也是很重要的那因為時間有限我也要來到就是說另外這個部分我要請農業部的次長對"},{"start":432.405,"end":446.79,"text":"次長這個有關於非洲豬瘟這一仗打得辛苦了那麼我們還是終於可以成功的手下非洲豬瘟但是我們也知道這個過去有這個因為口蹄疫那麼我們痛失了國際的市場那麼好不容易呢在2020年"},{"start":448.03,"end":455.897,"text":"我們被認證為口蹄疫的非疫區那麼希望銷售菲律賓 新加坡但是現在又因為非洲豬瘟整體來講從過去當年1996年的27.6萬噸到口蹄疫爆發之後現在在慢慢回復當中我想要問的就是說在這樣的過程當中現在我們怎麼來看國際的市場"},{"start":470.707,"end":499.062,"text":"應該是說台灣的獸醫服務體系跟台灣的養豬體系在過去確實是我不能講百煉成鋼真的是很慘痛的經驗但是確實是有很好的基礎所以未來其實我們的養豬產業的輔導這是農業部要做的以國內為主因為90%的國內市場都是我們的台灣豬肉那至於外銷的部分我們當然就盡量來做第一個當然是恢復成非洲豬恩德非裔國才有機會再出口"},{"start":500.551,"end":526.819,"text":"對 那麼我的意思是那麼對於這個部分農業部現在這裡對於就是輔導然後以及現在的所謂回復的過程當中是有信心的嗎這一定要做的因為其實台灣有這個水準也做得到但是真的是需要包括我們的養豬農民包括我們各縣市辛苦的動物防疫人員還有全民因為真的防疫是全民的責任每個人都把自己的部分做好其實國家才會安全"},{"start":527.099,"end":533.005,"text":"好 我覺得對於台灣的豬農來講不只是台灣人民擔心沒有豬肉其實對於豬農來講其實這樣的一些農產品的外銷對於台灣來說也是非常重要的好 謝謝那我要請部長就是我知道其實台灣的續產的技術對於友邦是非常重要的也是我們非常大的利器就像我們看到這個"},{"start":548.78,"end":553.384,"text":"在EPIC上面喔 這個BTS的RM可以上去演講他就是用所謂的過去呢韓國是用外交來帶動KPOP現在是反過來透過KPOP來帶動外交從BTS的RM到聯合國到美國現在在EPIC上面發表演說好像變成是所有的娛樂產業就要看韓國"},{"start":571.42,"end":592.789,"text":"但是我對台灣有信心的是包括剛剛我特別質詢到的是台灣有關於農業技術又或者是剛剛這個林靜儀次長也特別提到的我們的醫療技術都是全球第一那麼在這個部分其實都是需要外交的協助一起跨部會的整合所以在這個部分我也期許部長在這個外交的部分讓我們的這個農產技術或是醫療技術成為外交的神隊友"},{"start":598.652,"end":622.141,"text":"那在這個部分 也需要外交部跟另外兩個部會能夠多多的來溝通跟協調對啦 我要為台灣豬講幾句好話因為這個確實是我們外交的神隊友除了台灣豬啦 真的是很好吃我們出口 包括食品加工那我們其實現在跟菲律賓 巴拉圭我在推動榮邦計畫我們投資考察團 大家都很有興趣"},{"start":622.721,"end":627.263,"text":"菲律賓他一年需要1200萬頭的豬他自己可以供給大概不到900萬頭所以他的豬價如果要降 造福人民的話養豬業很重要所以我們八大農幫計畫的旗艦計畫裡面有一個智慧新農業我們用智慧解決方案 輸出落地對我們台灣的青農 甚至我們這一些農業設施還有人才"},{"start":646.489,"end":652.474,"text":"那其實可以建立一個台飛經濟走廊裡面很好的項目巴拉圭是一個畜牧業很發展那他的這個所謂的這些"},{"start":656.93,"end":680.06,"text":"飼料什麼的 這個可以說是很豐富啦他們種植的不管是大豆啦或其他的這些玉米等等那我覺得這個都是他們的競爭力台灣跟他們一結合之後可以擴展那個國內跟國際的市場所以這個是我認為台灣豬不只是我們把豬肉輸出去我們把好的這一個我們的人才可以有一個未來有用武之地"},{"start":680.62,"end":688.426,"text":"他可以到新的地方對我們台灣的農民尤其是青年的農民他們這些都是做新農業的智慧農業也會找到發展的一個很好的一個未來的一個舞台"},{"start":696.471,"end":710.978,"text":"部長我特別提到為什麼說是農業外交這個部分就是因為這一次日本受到中國所謂的在這個主權上面或者是挑戰的時候他們的經濟大臣蕭業廷也特別講了就是雞蛋不要放在同樣一個籃子裡"},{"start":711.818,"end":715.86,"text":"可是事實上從過去民進黨執政就一直在強調這一點所以呢我也期許啦外交搭配我們的農業醫療或其他的產業我們也不要只就是在面對比如說中國又臨時宣布哪一個產業哪一個農產品不能進去的時候那麼讓這些農民受損我認為其實外交帶著走到外面去闖天下其實這會更安全也更可以達到這個外交的實質效果好我們會推動努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913577d3e7ae68890c93be06babd869ba0afa443352b7318b89a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:59:48 - 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請王富密也請我們黃次長好 請王富密跟王次長委員早大家辛苦了我想立法院該審不審今天來自食惡果而司法院負責任的善後補救卻是在這裡要被為難要被究責"},{"start":43.786,"end":69.778,"text":"我呼籲藍白的委員 在野的委員們暴衝式的立法 修法發生在法庭直播的法院組織法上切莫不要再次的二度惡修把修法當兒戲這是我今天的破題喔 下一頁進入法庭直播的部分之前呢今天同樣也有汪小林委員提的法院組織法83條修正案"},{"start":70.698,"end":73.504,"text":"也就是偵查終結公開起訴書的書類公開範圍呢它要擴及不起訴處分書擴及還起訴處分書等等"},{"start":81.411,"end":100.578,"text":"我想當然提案的委員他可能認為就是要擴大司法的透明公開但是任何的透明公開資訊的揭露也都要適度為之不要讓司法人權在這些修法有失周延的思慮之下是為謀其利先受其害的"},{"start":101.238,"end":126.569,"text":"所以說我終整讀了你們兩個部會單位司法院跟法務部的資訊你們對於法院組織法83條修正案也是持保留的態度對不對違反了無罪推定的原則恐怕會妨礙後續的犯罪偵查甚至也可能會觸犯到偵查不公開的原則司法法治委員會不是最重視偵查不公開嗎現在卻要惡修法律"},{"start":130.951,"end":159.891,"text":"自己去違反偵查不公開真的要三思而後行當然最重要的是捍衛司法人權我們在公開的範圍呢一定要考量訴訟程序參與者的名譽隱私權之保障我所說的這四大理由是不是都是司法院跟法務部對於這個修法持保留意見的主要的幾個部分是嗎有沒有補充的部分"},{"start":160.493,"end":181.004,"text":"就八十三條部分我們是幾個疑慮點如同委員剛才所說明的好 謝謝次長的說明那我們下一頁所以說司法人權要捍衛透明公開有其界限透明公開真的不要適得其反立法院更要反求諸己立法院不要雙標"},{"start":182.805,"end":208.617,"text":"我們看看立法院自己有做到透明公開嗎還是立法院自己在修法的過程一再的黑箱呢自己在違反透明公開啊下一頁我不得不說這一屆的立法院惡例變成慣例了程序正義完全被踐踏這是我整理出來的這一會期喔這一屆應該我講這一屆期"},{"start":211.838,"end":238.976,"text":"光用禁覆二讀的方式快速的跳過委員會零討論就表決的法案有這麼多我要強調我從國會助理到現在國會的工作也真的是二十餘年了禁覆二讀是議事規則授權的議事策略沒有錯但禁覆二讀有其前提就是第一個朝野有共識的議案"},{"start":239.861,"end":255.359,"text":"第二個有急迫性的議案而不是腐爛的在朝野沒有共識的議案每一個都透過表決 淨富二讀而淨富二讀也需要有配套因為委員會已經沒有討論了你後面的"},{"start":256.119,"end":274.057,"text":"韓院長 立法院院長主持的最終表決前的那個最終的條文寫上就成為最重要也是唯一的討論條文的場域他必須逐條討論必須負責的審議必須理性的對話這是進覆二讀的當然的配套"},{"start":275.069,"end":303.156,"text":"可是這一屆立法院都沒有 腐爛的進覆二讀然後協商當天直接表決換言之 等一下就表決現在協商是什麼 就過水啊韓國瑜院長主持的潮雨協商是沒有實質討論的是零討論 只是過水而已所以這些惡果惡力都發生在法院組織法的法庭直播上更甚者 表決前又送出再修正動議"},{"start":304.856,"end":326.002,"text":"所以這一次法院組織法 法庭直播我在表決前看到的條文又被改了黑箱版本又被改了跟當初我們試圖理解的法案又不一樣了換言之這是二上加二既附二讀 協商過水表決前是黑箱版本造成今天法庭直播這個法院組織法的"},{"start":329.268,"end":355.022,"text":"為得其利 先受其害 而司法院努力的在撥跨榜今天在這裡還要被在野黨的委員責難成這樣所以這是一個萬惡之源如果法院組織法當時尋程序在委員會好好最專業的司法法制委員會來討論重大的司法制度的變革我想你們也不用這麼麻煩後面去改那個直播辦法大家傷透腦筋如何撥跨榜"},{"start":356.229,"end":380.371,"text":"所以下一頁我們就來看看立法院雙標在哪裡啊立法院該審查的其實是法案議案行政部門依據法案議案去制定的相關的執法辦法事實上原則上是受立院被查當然也可以改審查但是重點立法院該審查的是法案"},{"start":381.897,"end":401.222,"text":"而不是像法院組織法 法庭直播的部分直接禁負二讀直接快速的不協商就三讀表決碾壓還強制規定你們三個月內要上路當初國民法官法我們上路的準備期是多久兩年半"},{"start":409.99,"end":428.454,"text":"2020年的7月通過我們上路是2023年的1月1號兩年半的時間涉及重大司法制度的變革他要有充分的時間來研議制度的配套但是立法院審查快轉爆充修法協商過水"},{"start":430.427,"end":456.104,"text":"然後表決黑箱強制通過了之後要你們三個月內趕快上路為快而快爆衝的立法院要司法院來承擔後果啊那我們來看看反啦 這是反啦該審的法案不審現在呢 立法院反而要來針對你們送出來的配套辦法要來改審查"},{"start":457.253,"end":482.229,"text":"這不就是完全亂了套嗎該審的不審然後現在來為難你們的實施辦法太過分了立法院自己的程序不正義自己踐踏了委員會的實質討論然後把受害者想方設法去補救的司法院現在下一頁還放話"},{"start":484.093,"end":500.58,"text":"不合倡議就威脅再來煽動司法院的預算嗎黃國昌委員說你們法庭直播的部分他不滿意你們現在波帕王的這個實施辦法他又再一次放話嗆聲要威脅凍結刪減你們的預算來反制"},{"start":505.748,"end":534.426,"text":"今天黃國昌委員就是法庭直播的始作俑者被社會踏法成這樣他不思悔改今天還在嗆說要把你們的這個辦法退回司法院然後他還要再修法院組織法這立法院真是怪了才化法不是這樣嗎自己為快而快爆衝的修法才化法然後呢出了包然後上會期修的才化法這會期再修一次"},{"start":535.629,"end":543.654,"text":"然後黃國昌現在一樣啊 上會期修的法院組織法自己粗糙暴衝 現在又要再回來這不是把修法當兒戲嗎"},{"start":546.627,"end":568.025,"text":"所以依據立法院職權實施法62條的規定如果相關的行政命令執法有違反抵觸法律確實立法院可以要求或廢止要求更正或廢止但是你們所送出來負責任的研議了三個多月的這個辦法有違逆法律嗎我們現在來檢視下一頁"},{"start":570.626,"end":584.235,"text":"到底Life跟Delay Life誰在抵觸法律呢藍白的委員自己說法反覆自己打臉自己啊這個是黃國昌委員626的黨團協商跟627的朝野協商他都說同樣的話"},{"start":585.714,"end":602.305,"text":"公開播送什麼時候是要Live沒有Live啊你也可以用Delay Live的方式去處理啊這種方式在外國實踐的例子還蠻多的這是黃國昌說的他當時自己同意Delay 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有請我們經濟部鞏部長 國客會副主委還有我們教育部朱長士我們請三位 謝謝區議員好"},{"start":19.833,"end":33.811,"text":"部長 副主委 次長好我想這個我們行政院也正式宣布了這個大南方的大南方新矽谷的一個S廊帶那當然南高坪是重中之重的一個發展重點"},{"start":34.612,"end":51.685,"text":"那我們這個行政院主委院長這個圖面上我們包含廣布長當時擔任行政院秘書長的時候有來屏東參加台積電半導體供應鏈進駐屏東科學園區的一個活動那我想這個屏東不管是水電土地"},{"start":52.425,"end":72.255,"text":"这些相关的资源都非常的丰沛那我想也是未来能够发展这个高科技产业很重要的一个现实那这个部分我想这个部分我们会努力来加强但是也需要我们中央部会的大力支持那首先我们先请教我们副主委我们目前屏东科学园区招商的状况目前进度到哪里"},{"start":73.075,"end":97.049,"text":"目前屏東科學園區所有公共城的部分都在如期的進行當中那廠商的部分進駐也有好幾家廠商已經核准進駐那目前剛剛委員所提到的這個供應鏈的這個也已經有三家廠商已經在進行申請入區的程序或者已經獲核准後面還有好幾家那所以目前的進度應該都是照整個原來科學園區發展的進度在進行 以上"},{"start":97.717,"end":114.302,"text":"我想我們這個南高屏的這個發展的一個生活模式也好產業發展模式也好是緊密相連所以在這個整個未來包含小港機場這個能夠擴大包含我們未來有高鐵要南沿屏東我們有高屏二塊的動工跟我們"},{"start":116.322,"end":132.014,"text":"我們的那個平台快速道路的陸續的一個進度我想未來交通的建設改善之後我們也希望引進更多的一個高科技產業那尤其我們希望我們在地的子弟能夠在地就業在地學習那除了這個之外"},{"start":133.054,"end":152.528,"text":"我們當然知道目前我們這個南科的產值已經超越中科跟主科那除了這個屏東科學園區之外我們也期待屏中就是我們在這個未來南周堪頂我們有很多的台塘土地有沒有計劃能夠再做第二座的科學園區的一個規劃跟我們報告在"},{"start":153.749,"end":164.913,"text":"不管是在大南方信息股或者是桃竹苗信息股裡面都有相關的潛在的產業用地在做適當的一個準備但是最後還是要回歸所有科學人去回歸到產業的需求我們會做適當的評估"},{"start":166.822,"end":188.064,"text":"副主任我想沒有先規劃就來不及部署我想現在很多我們的很多廠商也都在找地你不給他適合的用地他當然不可能會進駐屏東我們應該有做這樣的一個超前部署的一個打算那除了這個產業的規劃之外更重要就是一個高科技人才的一個培育那目前我知道教育部跟國科會"},{"start":188.824,"end":211.842,"text":"有核定了这个争取包含阳明交通成大台北科技大学跟冯甲大学有做一个相关的一个太空工程的一个研究所那我们最近我们国科会也同意在我们屏东的九鹏我们要为了要设立一个太空中心那我们品科大是一个很好的一个发展的一个大学院校教育部门能不能提前来规划做这样的人才的培育"},{"start":213.548,"end":230.203,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們已經有連結平哥大跟屏東大學那透過大手吸小手的方式希望跟在地的高中跟普高跟技高一起建立一些科普基地甚至我們可以針對我們重要的像AI"},{"start":230.959,"end":252.276,"text":"或是像我们机器人智慧制造这个部分来做一些课程跟人才培育的规划自然我想这个还是必须要从小扎根那所以我们期待从这个国小开始就是有一些AI教育的一个融合是帮我们自己的老师也要精进然后把相关的设备到位还有我们一些科学"},{"start":253.016,"end":275.926,"text":"科展競賽的一個推動我想要讓小孩子從小接觸這樣的環境讓他們知道說這個我們未來屏東有這樣的一個產業發展我想這是一個很好的一個契機這可不可以繼續來努力這一塊好 謝謝委員長我們現在就是希望說先以在地的高中作為基地向下系連結國中小向上是由大學這個部分投注"},{"start":276.623,"end":298.509,"text":"實作的一些場域跟師資一起來帶動謝謝韋芝 我們會朝這方向來努力好 我想最後請教我們龔部長部長 我們在野黨上個禮拜強行通過了這個關鍵的一個修法那我們國內六大環團發表了一個聯合聲明對於未來這樣的一個家園管制恐怕扼殺了所有一個綠能發展的一個進度"},{"start":299.089,"end":327.039,"text":"那我们过去有提到2050年我们的能源配比再生能源的比例要达到60到70%部长这个目标会不会受到影响短期间看起来是会受到影响就是那个时程上原来我们是希望就是再生能源发电占我们比例可以在明年11月达到20%那因为通常一个环境影响评估大概都是会到至少会一年到一到五年"},{"start":327.939,"end":348.635,"text":"最快的情況之下那顯然應該會受到多少會受到一些影響部長我想這是一個很嚴重的問題綠電不應該被污名化那我們當然支持對於不法的業者檢調應該要嚴辦但是對於合法業者的一個保障我想我們政府部門也應該要有這樣的一個態度不然未來什麼人敢來搗亂大家現在都吊車在那"},{"start":351.057,"end":366.086,"text":"看不到未來啦真的啦以後未來包含高科技產業你需要水需要電我們根本都跟不上這些進度未來怎麼辦部長能不能有一個比較SOP比較一個強制的一個合理的一個做法讓所有業者有所規範"},{"start":367.358,"end":396.702,"text":"是对因为现在法通过我们当然要按依法行政但是我们还是会希望把这个做一些分级如果看环平的这个程序我们会跟那个环境部来沟通一下是比较简易的不止环境部应该包含农业部包含农店渔店都应该要有一个相关的SOP让业者有所遵循那你们也应该要严格监督不能让不法业者对对对不法的部分我们现在跟法务部已经有一个平台"},{"start":397.042,"end":397.823,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢問"}]}},{"id":"165691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913f908cf1071d70a40f94607883e6102aefa443352b7318b89739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:52:19 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有請教育部劉次長跟抒發部胡祖蜜請劉次長 胡祖蜜"},{"start":18.803,"end":46.391,"text":"台灣是民主國家那每位公民只要不要傷害別人理所當然他要獲得最大限度的自由那政府也無權干涉可是這並不等同於我們眼睜睜看著下一代暴露在危險的情境中然後毫無作為也就是說我們並不會讓民眾即將要把巨款匯給詐騙集團的時候我們還在旁邊說風涼的話說匯款是民眾的自由"},{"start":47.831,"end":74.721,"text":"好 那國際特赦組織對這個TikTok發布的兩份報告看起來毛骨悚然第一份報告是說TikTok為了吸引住使用者透過演算法不斷地做出一些毫無把關的推薦個人化的推薦 無論內容有多麼的離經叛道他都會直接透過手機的螢幕推送到我們孩子的面前"},{"start":75.521,"end":103.93,"text":"那在國際特殊這個研究中他有顯現出如果一個孩子他好奇自己的心理狀態喔那又或者他對身心這個健康問題有興趣那Ttalk他就會灌輸許多有害的資訊給他例如說他會鼓勵自殘或者自殺的影片換句話說Ttalk已經不是不只是網路成癮的問題他是對我們下一代赤裸裸的惡意"},{"start":104.932,"end":105.374,"text":"那我"},{"start":106.465,"end":135.244,"text":"我要跟次長討論是說那目前我們在教育現場你是否會發現有相關的這種危害的事件那目前我們根據這個兒少全法第四六條或者是第四六條它其實有防止兒少就是接觸有害身心發展網路內容的規範那同一條就是在兒少全法裡面的第94條它也有對網路平台有科有罰則"},{"start":136.585,"end":162.161,"text":"那要討論就是說那教育部如何要精進現有的措施再進一步落實我們兒少全法第四六條規定的精神那我們是不是也同時要在教育家庭裡面家庭教育裡面去強調這個教育網路不當內容的影響市長謝謝委員持續關心這件事情我們也很真正關心不過再強調"},{"start":163.703,"end":176.011,"text":"在以Tunnel為主的我們是不會裝這個就是因為在Tunnel是因為我們的資通安全法我們不能裝置大陸製的軟硬"},{"start":177.714,"end":201.185,"text":"包括抖音跟小紅書是這是因為是這樣那至於個人載具個人手機手的ADSL那個第一個他要裝什麼所以我們有一個叫做數位工具包我們也有一些數位學習給家長的指引我們都是希望家長能在家庭裡面能設法的去"},{"start":202.526,"end":229.066,"text":"装置一些过滤的机制三大业者也都有这个服务如果他愿意去装的话我们都一起服务的那委员也关键家庭教育我们的终身其实我们也做了很多的家庭教育的一些课程跟宣导以及活动那我们这个媒体宿养跟网路数位宿养等相当课程都已经在那里面"},{"start":230.207,"end":259.234,"text":"说实在已经很多了但是听不听是一回事因为人身自由您刚才提到人身自由但是我们教育就是永远不够我们会持续推动我们会加强推动刚才也讲了有关于一些网路的祷告与什么我们只要收集到任何的新的跟有害跟您写的有关于就是儿少有关有任何的关系不单单是被动或主动的我们知道"},{"start":259.794,"end":282.692,"text":"我們都會經過iWIN的機制那iWIN如果認為這是有害會通知業者下架如果不下架我們教育部會自動下架而且是只在學術網路裡面下架所以因為我們教育部主管的只是在學術網路跟教學現場擁有的那家庭的這部分我們還是持續跟家長做溝通"},{"start":283.032,"end":305.029,"text":"我们也跟我们的家长团体持续的对话希望人都了解多利用我们的数位工具包当然委员会说我们数位工具包够不够我们会持续充实会加强因为其实TikTok有一个另外一个问题它这个问题是比其他的社群平台更严重许多就是因为它来自独裁的中国"},{"start":306.089,"end":321.669,"text":"那中國這個國家我想是無法被完全信任因為他這個政府他可以肢一妄為去侵害人民的權益所以他透過這個TikTok那台灣的孩子他就是有會有大量的個人資訊被"},{"start":322.93,"end":337.983,"text":"中國這個國家所掌握那我們會有大量的這個兒少的隱私 暴露在中國那國際特色組織又有一個報告顯示說TikTok它經營的這個是一個高度剝削的商業模式"},{"start":339.184,"end":364.665,"text":"他其實不僅大量在收集用戶的在平台上的個人數據那他某些地區甚至在就連用戶在現實生活中的資訊也會被收集所以國際特色組織他形容說陷入TikTok的這個監視網路當中那會給青少年帶來很多隱私權遭曝光的恐懼感"},{"start":365.626,"end":387.795,"text":"那所以再來就要請教這個速發部胡竹蜜而少乃至於全體國人他這個個人資訊噗噗在這個中國的掌控之中會有怎麼樣的風險那速發部又有怎麼樣的應變策略因為監察院他的報告有指出說像美國啊歐盟啊或英國他們都有一些"},{"start":388.915,"end":412.256,"text":"法令像說美國還有保護美國人免受外國對手應用程式的侵害法那像那個歐盟有數位服務法那英國有那個線上安全法等的立法那我們台灣會不會朝立法的管制去模式去應對胡竹蜜謝謝委員的資訊那有關那個個資外洩的部分那過去其實"},{"start":413.91,"end":429.099,"text":"各自外線就會衍生相關的詐騙的東西就會進來所以如果小朋友資料也都在外面暴露的話事實上增加很多的受騙的危險所以這個部分其實我們各自法已經有相關的規範或者是我們那個打詐的相關的條例已經針對這個"},{"start":430.74,"end":460.192,"text":"不当的广告事实上也要求这些Meta这些来下架这样子是有相关的来处理所以你说就透过各支法目前各支法已经有在针对这些业者他如果让我们的资料外泄的话那这些业者就要负担起一定的责任这样子这是针对平台的部分那如果是平台的部分他如果有一些诈骗的广告等等他事实上也要在限期内要下架不然他也会有相关的责任要负担这样子"},{"start":461.229,"end":488.938,"text":"那想再來再跟胡祖密討論的是說像根據這個有一個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則還有行政院秘書長在2020年他的發函我們公務用的這個自通產品包括軟體硬體我們都不能使用中國的品牌那這些行政規則都已經有要求行政院所屬全國的各公務機關"},{"start":490.899,"end":500.863,"text":"照理立法院也要比照辦理啊那請教一下立法委員利用TikTok進行公務的宣傳那影響民眾視聽這算不算違反這個這項規定啊"},{"start":503.082,"end":523.588,"text":"先跟委员报告一下就是抖音跟TikTok我们目前是切割处理抖音就很明确的就是录制的所以一定是不能使用所以我们已经也有发函立法院在公务上面一定不能来运用这个抖音这样子的一个APP那至于TikTok我们刚才另外在讨论因为打仗的条例我们有邀请他来"},{"start":525.448,"end":547.193,"text":"設立法律代表人不過這個東西正在討論當中不過非常明確的抖音是所有的公務部門都不可以來使用這個抖音的那立法院這個部分委員本身或者是行政人員當然行政人員一定是公務員他的公務員的這個資格一定不能來使用這些那至於委員本身可能他就是公職人員有另外的進行公務宣傳"},{"start":548.853,"end":574.44,"text":"這個可能就是另外中國就是符合這個 他是反中國嘛 這個國家是符合我們反滲透法第二條規定 就是敵外境外敵對勢力那立委可以考察國防機密那也可以參與機密預算所以他可以獲取很多國家各式各樣的資訊所以結果手機裡安裝資安"},{"start":576.46,"end":587.167,"text":"有問題的中國軟體那這難道不是很荒謬的資安破口嗎那所以針對這樣的資安破口我們未來要怎麼樣的管制對不對"},{"start":588.627,"end":609.201,"text":"当然如果依照我们危害国家自动安全的相关的规定的话那如果他有安装使用的话那一定安装抖音对安装使用抖音的话就会受到相关治安法的规定那如果有一些情节的状况的话就可以惩戒或惩处这样子这个是治安法的规定对"},{"start":611.512,"end":636.116,"text":"時間的關係我想再透過三十秒來跟次長討論一下AI教育因為現在AI教育越來越發達教育部當然有針對中小學制定一些深層式人工智慧注意事項當然也有針對一些家長有一些所謂的數位學習職能指引對中小學的教學有一些職能"},{"start":636.756,"end":663.405,"text":"那剛剛也有推出所謂中小學這個這個數位教學指引的3.0版不過我覺得除了這些以外我覺得我們還是要回過頭來解釋一下老師家長跟學生有沒有跟得上AI的腳步啦齁那根據黃坤惠教育基金會他調查8月到10月間針對現職的國小 國中 高中老師進行AI數量調查那這個3600份的回收的調查問卷"},{"start":664.925,"end":680.156,"text":"結果顯示大部分的老師他覺得自己對於AI基礎跟應用或AI的倫理或AI的人本思維他覺得他是具有素養的可是在AI的這個教學法或AI的專業發展他覺得這兩項他覺得還有所不及"},{"start":681.336,"end":701.193,"text":"另外我們也發現說年資越長的老師們自認具備AI的素養不及之前的老師我想教育部針對教師的AI素養有在舉辦很多的研習課程有一些基礎的培訓也都已經有做一些很完整的"},{"start":703.114,"end":728.25,"text":"進階的課程也在持續推動所以我想我們另外也有看到本席也有在看到教育部在明年的預算書也有持續要辦理AI應用我在教學跟學習那也有升級這個教育雲一站式的服務要開發這個在地化的教育用可信賴的這個所謂的大型人工智慧對話引擎就是所謂的Tide模型"},{"start":729.17,"end":749.524,"text":"我要請教的是說我們教育用的這個態度現在開發的進度不曉得到哪裡那還有一種就是我們行政減量喊了那麼久那身於這個理工背景的你你是不是有更多的想像就是說用AI技術怎麼樣輔助在行政減量上 簡單回答"},{"start":749.824,"end":770.544,"text":"好,您问的问题是非常深奥,但是也是切实的。有关于那个老师AI的智能,我们事实上已经A1、A2已经百分之百完成,现在所谓的A3的智能已经在百分之十,每年的百分之十。另外,未来也会推动到我们所谓的B3选修课程。"},{"start":771.064,"end":786.289,"text":"如果哪些老師是針對深層式AI融入教學的工作坊如果特定的老師或哪些老師需要我們會加強去學習那另外剛才您講過針對所謂的某一些階段的老師或者是比較"},{"start":787.742,"end":806.652,"text":"我不能說他年長就是比較通常這是調查報告出來的年資較深的會比年資較淺的對AI這個東西比較不熟悉那我也算比較資深但是我們還有一個機制叫做手把手手把手的機制我們會推薦那個"},{"start":807.452,"end":829.19,"text":"对AI教学有经验的老师或大学的教授会入校去协助只要有退休需求我们透过各式各样的管道县市政府也好我们各地方有DOC我们有数位学习中心等等我们都会愿意协助特定的老师在这方面好那太"},{"start":830.271,"end":853.354,"text":"AI Tide上面我们已经跨部会我刚刚已经讲过举个例子我们最近有推一个Write AI就是基于这个Education Tide系统帮助我们高中老师而且这个还是民间的机构来捐赠的帮助高中老师去改国文的作文这是一个多么困难"},{"start":854.315,"end":880.04,"text":"兼生的問題聽他們說如果用人工改一個作文跟他花個十到十五分鐘那經過這個可以縮短到幾分鐘之內所以而且這也可以應用到學生自己自學日後啦那也就是說我們教育部的立場是我們一定要教老師我們不是要取代老師我在強調取代老師也不要取代學生學習這一塊當然當然我們是要利用AI去協助"},{"start":880.7,"end":906.099,"text":"老师如何教得好教得满我们也是希望学生能具有AI不要沉溺在AI不要overuse AI而是利用AI如何去让他们学得最大的帮手像我们的酷英网我们的学生利用即在你在偏乡利用酷英网我们根据我们的调查如果经过酷英网你只要四个小时以上它进步是15%以上那新生减量呢"},{"start":906.579,"end":935.156,"text":"行政减量一样我们现在我们也在推动那个Try AITry AI我们那个我们也是在学习说如何比如说写公文比如学写写什么样的文字对对对我们要教导他们所有行政我们教育部也是开始做起如何去去应用他们应用AI得到最大的帮忙对对对我们是要希望能减少教学第一线的老师的行政减量好我们朝这个方向去走好谢谢次长谢谢主席"},{"start":936.077,"end":936.984,"text":"谢谢林一金委员"}]}},{"id":"165690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913082a10e9ec55104e50d730950bdd7c8afa443352b7318b89739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:55:43 - 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房屋補貼 健保 兒女的教育我覺得這個我們國家要全力來支持以外就是原額"},{"start":318.503,"end":345.14,"text":"那元額像歐洲專案我們就有一個整體的一個政策那也感謝這個行政院的支持先給我們的30個元額因為外交人員的這個入局他是要去訓練然後最後再外派他需要花至少一兩年的時間所以我們先有這樣子然後後面我們也都用政策性的比如要推動農幫計畫像現在以歐洲來講幾乎每個國家都想要跟我們發展"},{"start":346.281,"end":353.443,"text":"包括這個經濟外交當然文化外交還有非常多所以這方面確實會影響我們台灣我們外管的能量那我也在重新規劃打區域聯防避免各自為政強化落實館長制然後我們總和外交就是各部會我們也有派外人員加強整合"},{"start":368.327,"end":395.116,"text":"然後發揮綜合的這個外交的戰力這個是屬於組織調整跟改革但是真的你如果沒人沒錢那也沒有辦法去做這些事情所以說委員是說我們是希望委員會能夠支持就是預算的增加那我們也會把人人編制也增加我們一定會打造一個就是能夠來落實總和外交跟榮邦計畫的外交團隊"},{"start":396.156,"end":414.678,"text":"對 因為我覺得就是畢竟本鳳等等之類有時候是定死的像剛剛提到家籍啦我跟委員報告補充抱歉比如說那個物價一直上升像在美國或是歐洲甚至像新港那個租金很貴他那個住不起在那個都市中心他就往郊外住"},{"start":415.219,"end":441.506,"text":"然後為了通勤上下有些是女性像紐約他安全也會有顧慮搭地鐵我覺得說當然美國有一個叫做Foreign Service Act因為像我們國防部我們軍方是有相關的人事法令其實我也是覺得我們立法院也可以來研議是不是針對外交人員有一個專法讓他可以充分的來發揮吸收更多的人才願意來當台灣的外交官"},{"start":443.487,"end":458.657,"text":"因為如果說現在來考試的外交官的質量相對於我們可能幾十年前也許大陸那個時候都想要外交報廓可是現在社會的吸引力太多薪水啦單單會語言或有外交的這個能力的人才企業都"},{"start":459.477,"end":486.145,"text":"都真的要所以我們要留住這些人才不能靠他的熱情也要讓他有好的工作環境這個建議不錯啦所以這個法律的部分我們或許來可以一起來共同思考一下如果有願望我們這邊也來思考一下因為我覺得我們總是要想一個策略讓人才可以進來是那接下來我想問一下就是說這個我先跳過好了我想問一下因為今天剛好這一個衛福部也在嘛就是因為WHA就是說我們現在你看我們這個醫療團隊"},{"start":488.726,"end":503.924,"text":"我們已經獲頒這一次的這個頒獎典禮裡面在國際的我們獲頒四項大獎也就是說我們的這個人才你看這是11月的事情而已我們這個人才真的是非常的多那當然這個明年就是一樣這個打壓一定還會繼續存在"},{"start":505.265,"end":532.874,"text":"那我覺得我們提早做好準備一定是好事所以有沒有什麼現在目前來講有沒有什麼樣的方案就我們過往一定有一些事情要做吧對不對有沒有什麼額外的然後能夠讓我們明年看能不能再拼一次這個WHA好 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委員這順到吳清明吳清明這順到的時候我們休訓五分鐘謝謝好 召委我們各一位同仁請我們海洋委員會我們的管主委請管主委"},{"start":24.682,"end":43.622,"text":"各位好主委好主委辛苦了謝謝尤其我們現在我看很多人在關心尤其我們可以說在這幾年在主委大年不管說我們海上的我們的船艦以及我們整個生態的保育"},{"start":44.382,"end":70.857,"text":"主委都是非常用心,這點本職是先把妳勸頂謝謝但是現在我最近在高雅分推出我們的全民國防措施為了強化我們全民的安全意識涵蓋天災以及戰災的內容但是我看裡面很多海巡是站在我們全民的第一線尤其我們的海洋的,巡邏海洋的"},{"start":72.638,"end":82.244,"text":"但是它的執行單位有國防部、教育部、經濟部、機關該有的機關都有,唯獨我們海洋委員會的機關沒有內陸在裡面作為執行的對象這是不是在這個部分請指揮來做說明"},{"start":91.637,"end":108.328,"text":"可能那個重點是放在陸域的避難就是在陸上,在陸域,災害,戰爭的時期主要防空避難,主要是陸域但是,如果跟海有關係,海河,海上的它有把我們一一巴掌上去,那最重要就是你如果海要求救,你要一一巴掌"},{"start":118.994,"end":131.543,"text":"那有在內地啦 那有在內地嘛那有在內地 我想說出行單位怎麼沒有海洋委員會有求救118有在內地 我們的專線好 這樣這點 這樣好 部分是了解這點是重點尤其我們海洋委員會推出海洋無障礙計畫可以說很多 我們的無障礙就是要一天我們不管說身心障礙也好 一天"},{"start":144.672,"end":153.775,"text":"我們的社團、經濟、學校的學生可以說大家都親近海洋這是非常好的情形希望說在這種好的情形我們一定要去推廣包含說以後我們台灣四面環海我們要說"},{"start":163.547,"end":176.691,"text":"讓我們的民眾大家都接近海洋因為我們台灣的海洋在這幾年說真的海洋因為不管保育也好海洋環境的維護也好真的是很用心這點我們想要再次傾聽"},{"start":178.672,"end":193.235,"text":"感謝 感謝 感謝委員好的情情 我們就要去推動了是啦 委員 以後我們南美尼 今年最後一天就週末辦事 因為天氣比較冷南美尼 我們陸陸續續有相關的活動 也歡迎委員來那一天 那個行程 我都很感動因為坐輪椅不便 但是我確實有辦法去晃 去剃頭這大家都很感動 很高興 是"},{"start":208.519,"end":218.929,"text":"因為這個有障礙我們就是要讓這些行動不方便的如果說在這位老闆阿郎也用得到這位若是可是不是說將對這些弱勢或是身心有問題的團體我們是不是可以經過來照顧甚至"},{"start":227.123,"end":237.593,"text":"但補助 因為車馬費會OK啦這樣才可以落實說 我們既然說有好的情形我們就要給全民大家來貢獻這是本身的看法我們現場的服務我們可以幫忙車賣費可能比較要看這個租界租界單位 看我們可不可以補車賣費這點可能我們就要問租界的轉押"},{"start":251.474,"end":262.182,"text":"因為你請到很多學校、學生尤其是國小的學生他們有文化卷現在就是我們聯同這個文化部把我們害的活動也放在文化卷上可以用謝謝委員你替我提請我現在想到這點我快要了解了解看有放在裡面文化卷都有補助"},{"start":278.254,"end":299.988,"text":"那些文化券可以用在我們家他們來這裡就一定有補助的意思因為我們小朋友他們說出籌款他們要自己去負擔對他們學生是很負擔我們學生的部分我們就很容易跟他們說我還想過我們也來做海洋消費券但是跟我說沒錢對,這就漸漸就沒辦法了今天你說海洋消費券其實你說"},{"start":307.333,"end":312.936,"text":"未來要推動我學校吧,我學校,對,對,對小朋友大家來接近海洋,我們的海洋推動做得那麼好當然是要讓他們了解,這是我們的責任"},{"start":323.14,"end":341.378,"text":"好,我們繼續來關心這一點是啊,我說到最後,到最後我做招委,我去辦公室的配合啊我看我們的珊瑚啊,我們的海洋的生態啊,都做得很好的啊大家都在求救,我們都在搶救珊瑚好不好好,謝謝委員關心,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913214b43c77ddf8c72c4841f031bc0ad0a8603fab3ff6def27f8672e411591f1865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:13:20 - 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那你們現在有在執行的有跟這個馬來西亞 新加坡等國就浮船的造船記憶還有王船信仰跟造船工具這個面向已經有一些交流那本席肯定這樣一個方向謝謝那也對台灣的整個造船記憶可以跟國際的海洋文化來透過海洋文化的平台來交流那這是我覺得很正確的一個方向是"},{"start":88.88,"end":107.623,"text":"那但是在這個部分想進一步請教主委也就是本席關心的這個南島文化那我們知道南島文化過去本來就是在海域這個部分其實是跟我們現在對於陸域的想像有很大的不同所以其實可以透過南島文化去做一個更深的連結那本席私下也都跟您做一些討論"},{"start":108.564,"end":122.987,"text":"那麼原住民或南島的諸國在海海星象還有海流這個部分還有海洋洋流等等有很長久的一個知識跟記憶那麼這邊本席想要跟"},{"start":123.968,"end":150.318,"text":"主委這邊請教我們有沒有可能將原住民仿古造船的記憶那也納入官方的這個海洋文化的主軸然後來跟原民會文化部甚至您這邊其實在私下也有跟本席針對技術的這個部分像經濟部這邊本席這邊有跟他們做一些交流我們可不可以將這樣一個計畫納入海洋文化力的主軸然後來推動國家級的南島造船記憶的附贈計畫"},{"start":152.719,"end":170.704,"text":"這是這個部分這是第一個部分第二個部分是西班牙其實在2011年來過台灣他的古船來過台灣那他的安達魯奇亞號是很成功的這個案例本席這邊希望台灣能夠走出去用原住民的仿古船來進行國際文化交流"},{"start":171.044,"end":186.101,"text":"那當然很重要如果能夠在國內我們先有這樣一個主題性的我們真的造出來在現代可以航行的這個船那我想應該是海委會應該在我們對海洋致敬是算有一個很聚焦的一個主軸"},{"start":187.142,"end":207.747,"text":"所以西班牙都這樣子做過他們曾經來過台灣在2011年這個上海世博2010年上海世博的時候透過這樣子的方式來呈現大安海時代的文化甚至在基隆港還有宜蘭這邊都待過我相信我們絕對有能力這樣子做那本席請教主委"},{"start":208.627,"end":225.606,"text":"你們是不是可以支持這個打造台灣南島文化防古船的這樣一個計畫然後積極來協助各部會像原民會我們剛才講的經濟部也感謝船舶中心這邊的一個支持還有部落的工匠來推廣南島航線的文化旅程"},{"start":226.427,"end":254.712,"text":"非常謝謝委員委員的遠見而且有一個國際的世界觀那剛好我在上個禮拜跟柯文初開會的時候我也有提到說如果我們能夠在好幾個國家那委員您特別提到南島這些國家那剛剛也提到了之外的西班牙因為大航海時代西班牙 荷蘭然後如果有防鼓船到台灣來我們就可以做海洋大閱兵"},{"start":255.732,"end":282.242,"text":"那在這個部分我們的資產很雄厚我們有剛剛委員說的竹筏我們還有蘭嶼達烏族的拼板舟那我希望阿美族的這個帆船也有機會是是是所以目前我們是在國內推造船記憶的傳承跟復興那這一兩年下來有一些成果那也非常謝謝委員關心都到現場去給他們加油打氣"},{"start":284.503,"end":313.612,"text":"那委員的這個構想我們來推動那明年的話可能如果籌備來不及我們一兩年為期來籌備這樣一個大計畫我想這個對國際交流是非常非常好的一件事情謝謝主委那我知道我們的昭緯其實也是那個南島文化國際交流的這個主席所以我也希望大家這個計畫未來可以一起來推動那我相信一定做得成的我們一定會得到很大的加持有兩位委員還有昭緯"},{"start":315.552,"end":340.181,"text":"謝謝 謝謝那接下來我很短的講一下那個上個禮拜我們知道主委這邊去了彌陀的這個就是那個碼頭的建制那其實地方都有在講啦所以那時候正好也是在附近然後他們剛參加活動就跟我們說那個無障礙空間至少現在在高雄彌陀的第一個國家級的海委會幫忙推動的那當然在地也都一起合作來推動的"},{"start":341.021,"end":369.875,"text":"那麼剛才有委員提到就是這個所謂的資障身障的無障礙空間我想海委會這個部分大概全國也就仰賴你們一起來做那當然很重要一點就是說事實上現在我們在近海的這個部分大家還是有一些法規上的限制啊或者是有大部分人都願意去近海但是呢整個我們海岸線的設施的建置其實還蠻匱乏的所以讓很多想要近海的人其實不是那麼的通暢所以"},{"start":370.976,"end":391.685,"text":"本席這邊來做一個提醒啦齁當然硬體的改善是很重要的啊那個每一個地方的這個沙灘或碎石灘的地形齁那不是只有針對身障齁那一般人都已經有點困難了更何況是身障所以你們有這樣彌陀一個經驗齁那是不是我們可以來加速全國呃整個我不曉得你們在目前齁的整個呃"},{"start":393.807,"end":398.272,"text":"盤點上進行到什麼樣一個階段我們目前的盤點就是說第一個以場域來講我們就是無障礙那除了這個步道以外我們其實還是希望他們的洗手間更衣室等等這個下個階段也要無障礙那以彌陀來講他們明年就要進行這個計畫"},{"start":412.987,"end":431.033,"text":"那无障碍是一个重点以外我们还有一个是我们的蓝旗海岸计划对蓝旗海岸计划呢我们希望用国际的标准虽然我们不一定会得到国际的认证但是我们用国际的标准希望我们的海洋是绿色永续"},{"start":431.633,"end":448.932,"text":"那另外就是安全我们会盘点的是他的安全的设施那安全的设施我们从告示牌也好我们从GoOcean的应用也好我们甚至于从我们也在做AI的模拟我们要模拟溺水的状态"},{"start":449.853,"end":477.198,"text":"那我们希望用无人机导入AI来防止溺水希望零溺壁那至于委员说的所有的海滩的动线那个部分我们目前没有盘点到那里您是建议这边可能做一个盘点因为要做之前其实一个基础的资讯是重要的那当然你这边对于安全这个部分委员关注的是哪一些项目的盘点"},{"start":477.558,"end":486.401,"text":"你們應該有一個青海無障礙躍升計劃無障礙有無障礙我們現在盤點八個地方我們第一階段八個地方有盤點出來那整個也納入深藏整個的情境但是本席這邊是關心在整個海岸空間或海岸的沙灘等等你們是不是有針對這個部分它的差異性做一些盤點但這個部分很重要就是跟地方政府的一個合作跟了解"},{"start":505.928,"end":520.08,"text":"因為地方政府相對會比較有更深的一個了解每一個地方的一個差異十個地方的沙灘目前才十個本席這邊因為前幾個禮拜您也知道本席去參加雲林三條輪正面比賽"},{"start":522.802,"end":540.632,"text":"很好的一個場地 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為了AI要給普及化 專民化你要怎麼有競爭力呢 不管小紅書 不管什麼 我跟你說 我都鼓勵孩子進入但是你說這個東西來著 美國金也金沒得 靠你給金的 想辦法 處敵 了解 最好靠我做爸爸的"},{"start":86.977,"end":113.922,"text":"我們為什麼沒有自己的抖音呢?我們為什麼台灣沒有研發自己的媒體、自己的社群呢?你要讓孩子有這個自由創意,這是我們的優點我們台灣的孩子跟台中的孩子不一樣,就是我們的屬性自由啊!我們的自由就太誇張了!你吃金吃金,吃金吃金我不知道你以前在哪裡,我聽過一句話"},{"start":116.499,"end":116.879,"text":"你幾年出的?"},{"start":116.879,"end":117.499,"text":"五三五三喔?"},{"start":117.499,"end":120.561,"text":"你看我差不多就講世代了以前我們都會看世本的有沒有?老鼠們都給我們禁嘛 這麼禁 那禁 這禁那禁 那禁 那禁 越禁我越想要 感覺?可能?"},{"start":120.561,"end":121.161,"text":"可能喔?那叫做鹽瓜腐出韭菜鹽白腐就出阿里布達"},{"start":145.299,"end":160.671,"text":"沒辦法啊,你每天都在謹記,我們是用正常健康的接觸我們要跟孩子說這是健康,這是不健康,這是對,這是不對現在的孩子的世界,進入網絡後的他的世界不是我們所想的那個世界啊只有謹記、怒吼,你知不知道最近網絡、抖音裡面最紅的是什麼"},{"start":169.13,"end":181.375,"text":"一些網紅 很多啦 但是譬如說 說抖音啦 好啦 說的最紅的什麼 你知道嗎 真人各位你不瞭解嘛 你要怎麼去約束教育制度 說叫孩子去瞭解什麼我告訴你這中小學的學生 真人各位最紅的什麼 你不知道王世堅所有的學校 你知道嗎"},{"start":197.423,"end":213.97,"text":"小朋友叫我拿王世堅的橡皮說你能不能幫我讓他簽名我去找 因為我找王委員 我說拜託 簽一下我問那孩子 我說阿閑啊有沒有啊 我們班就是這樣啊 大家都會唱啊這現在的世代 但是你說他會很久嗎 不會啦一波一波啊 一波一波啊"},{"start":228.3,"end":234.006,"text":"所以我們既然合成AI的內閣,我們要對各行、各業、各戰促去發展我們的競爭力,對不對?你全部都用金的角度,我認為沒辦法達到我們的目的,我不知道你的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":252.452,"end":278.479,"text":"各位報告我們事實上是依法行政我們是依據我們今年通過的九月份的資通安全管理辦法是各級機關尤其是教育部所屬的學校都不能採購跟裝備中國大陸製造的軟硬體自然就包含了抖音跟小手機那沒問題啦那是APP應用軟體"},{"start":281.758,"end":298.095,"text":"在制度上 形式上 依法沒問題啦但是在教育上是我的嘛你說家庭的關係 因為這樣就跟我配合你 全部都跟孩子一起我告訴你 如果家庭就要結婚這樣你有沒有了解就這一點"},{"start":301.775,"end":311.849,"text":"我們了解請主席講 這也不行 那也不行 那也不行啊我回去去搞好 我去辦他也行 他也行 他也行 只有我不行媽媽 這樣是要怎樣家長跟孩子 時間要怎樣去面對"},{"start":318.479,"end":338.068,"text":"搞不好是不是要扶著孩子 尋找扶著家長我們有輔導家長 我們有那個工具包 對不對有有有 那個工具包我是跟你建議啦不要有意識形態的置入啦 沒有沒有台灣的油店就是醋油 因為我們就是醋油我們的蘇省醋油造成我們今天的孩子 鼻子比較活潑"},{"start":339.972,"end":351.219,"text":"所以我們的競爭在遊玩還在如果連最重要的競爭和自由度都比A3這對我們教育來說是絕對絕對的負面我不知道你怎麼看"},{"start":354.116,"end":382.812,"text":"自由我必須尊重 但是在教育的現場如果有些網址網站的內容 我在講內容違反到違法 我知道嘛 我現在在跟你講的我必須要去禁止 我在跟你討論不是你以法所則改去禁的東西嘛 對不對就是說你在年高新高的過程中對這個孩子在使用這所有的平台 使用3C的產品包括未來他要進入AI的世界你敢不敢"},{"start":383.803,"end":391.287,"text":"我們結合但是所以侷限在我們的教學以及學習上面我們其他的並沒有解決並沒有撲破這就是太過單純本身建議"},{"start":407.665,"end":431.682,"text":"因為孩子出社會後,他就進入三夾界,包括我們現在傳統三夾面臨到關水的挑戰經濟不只說產業要轉型,要怎麼轉型?我做很嚴謹的這位三萬人,現在轉世界的薪水越來越多,大家都在提升如果你懂得AI,進入AI,把AI當成工具"},{"start":432.83,"end":448.448,"text":"那個時候全民都會蛻變啦,是不是這樣?並不是說因為AI的發展,你的工作機會就去到百十幾啊,那這樣是不是要對學校的教育就要開始啊?要讓他們有這種的概念,是不是這樣?"},{"start":450.385,"end":472.011,"text":"你們有做這種的結合嗎?有,我們有那個AI的各式各樣的AI教育,教育AI但是你教他要讓他會不會善用啊?是的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會"},{"start":474.812,"end":488.142,"text":"整個社會都是這種環境這樣好不好好你把你們對著這個孩子這部分的教育的設計跟辦法你一分輸給他們分析可以嗎可以好 感謝你謝謝謝永介委員質詢 官員請回座"}]}},{"id":"165705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9130bed951f5c16a22450d730950bdd7c8afa443352b7318b89f91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:40:39 - 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我們不管我們駐日本的我們的代表處或者是跟他們的外務省之間都有對這個事情有交換意見那在這個意見上面的交換我們雙方是有做出什麼樣的一個表達或者是在這個互信互動上面有什麼樣的一個態度能夠跟我們現在大眾來做一個進一步的說明"},{"start":76.589,"end":96.212,"text":"陳儒高市早苗首相他講他言所當言那他講了也不會收回但是因為講了這個話可能有一些引起的反應這個也要好好去因應嘛尤其是中共的反應那這一點當然我們作為理念相近國家之間也都會溝通"},{"start":97.093,"end":111.148,"text":"所以是日方這裡的這個代表向台灣方面有談到就是說呢即便這句話不會收回但他們對於中國大陸這邊呢還是會去再向他們做進一步的溝通是這個意思嗎是 所以"},{"start":112.409,"end":134.977,"text":"日本政府他們外務省也派了代表有到北京 但目前看起來並不是很順利的狀況之下但是這個行動本身就代表一個善意嘛對 派人去了嘛 要去跟他溝通不想讓這個事情因為誤會或失控所以說在這個部分上面日方跟台灣這邊也有進行一些互動他們當然也會讓我們知道我們當然也呼籲把中共要克制"},{"start":139.7,"end":162.22,"text":"那另外就是說除了這個高市早苗他的聲明之外那我們雙邊還會不會有一些比較積極的作為我舉個例子來說那先前他講的是如果台灣有事那就是日本有事那現在開始看起來這個中國大陸他們是把這個目標對準了這個日本不管在經濟上的或是軍事演習上的"},{"start":162.62,"end":171.225,"text":"那請問在台灣同樣的角度來說那我們會也採取這個日本有事台灣有事這樣子的一個說法嗎因為中共就是說軍事的擴張是針對台灣跟第一島鏈所有國家"},{"start":181.031,"end":199.073,"text":"對 但他這一次的主要的方向就是針對日本嘛因為每一次可能不一樣他當然他的這個引爆點是因為他講到的台灣這個兩岸之間的關係但問題是他這一次主要針對的對象呢就是不管在經濟上的打擊或者是他在這個演習上的方面都是針對日本"},{"start":200.094,"end":210.813,"text":"那我要問的是當高市早苗首相他說台灣有事日本有事的時候那我們的態度請問會說出日本有事就是台灣有事這樣子的說法嗎"},{"start":211.397,"end":230.007,"text":"因為中共如果要找事的話大家都會有事啊因為他就是對台灣平常就這樣其實就在現在他雖然在這個黃海軍演啦他的基建也都是不斷的侵入我們的所以我要問的事情是說我們會配合日方採取同等的軍事行動嗎"},{"start":233.129,"end":251.539,"text":"沒有 他那個邏輯是因為有日美安保條約對啊而美國跟台灣又有台灣關係法某種準同盟的關係好了所以這個當中共對台灣有軍事行動會影響到周邊國家包括日本菲律賓那美國怎麼反應會牽動日本的反應"},{"start":253.5,"end":259.022,"text":"它的架構是這樣子所以前半段說台灣有事就是日本有事其他下半段就是日美安保有事它有日美安保條約日美安保條約之後下一個就是台灣跟美國還有台灣跟日本之間的關係它是分成好幾段然後呢這個間接的串聯在一起的我們都知道"},{"start":273.846,"end":294.861,"text":"那我今天要問的事情是說安保法的危機事件有三種樣態第三種就是一些類似台灣有事日本有事其他還有包括可能日中之間直接有事啊可能美國跟中國之間也發生了一些有事啊所以這個當然台灣都會受影響不要講說純粹的軍事經濟安全各方面都會影響我先問軍事等一下會問你經濟嘛因為它是一層一層來的嘛"},{"start":301.246,"end":315.375,"text":"所以我的意思就是說如果今天中日雙方的衝突升高到軍事的層級的話那台灣這裡從外交的角度來說您會建議採取同等的軍事行動手段嗎"},{"start":316.489,"end":328.898,"text":"這不一樣的我們當然基於台灣的國家的安全的考量去做因應那當然因為第一島鏈都是彼此連動的啦連動歸連動但是比如說我跟委員講台灣的北邊就是宮古海峽那南邊就是巴西海峽我舉個另外一個例子來講以釣魚台來說那中日台三方我們的意見就不一樣"},{"start":339.286,"end":358.235,"text":"所以並不是說只要在第一島鏈上面所有的意見都是一致的很難講像是比如說我們在這個南海或東海來講的話其實也不見得大家的想法是一致的是既合作那又有競爭的關係這個其實是比較正確的說法嘛那只是說兩岸之間的關係尤為特殊對不對"},{"start":359.916,"end":371.624,"text":"所以我剛聽懂您的意思了另外就是我們會透過外交的方式與包含日本形成一個聯盟來共同對抗中國大陸嗎我們並沒有所謂的條約或集體安全的這個架構目前我知道沒有這個架構未來會不會有這樣的規劃"},{"start":383.888,"end":393.651,"text":"目前就是大家因為第一島鏈某種程度是一個戰場啦只要哪個地方發生軍事的衝突都會連帶影響周邊的國家那我們必須按在我們台灣的立場我們國家利益去做因應"},{"start":401.234,"end":423.43,"text":"我們第一個當然就是我們跟美國有台灣關係法六項保證這個是一種比較準同盟的關係至於我們跟日本跟菲律賓是沒有這樣的一個制度的安排所以我要問的問題就是這個就是說我們因為高市早苗首相的這一番話也掀起了中日的風波在這個突發的事件之後"},{"start":424.491,"end":441.34,"text":"台日之間有沒有可能會組成另外的一個聯盟那採取對抗中國大陸無論是從經濟或外交的手段上面那去進一步的聯合作戰這樣子的一個情況 目前沒有這樣的一個制度性的安排"},{"start":442,"end":459.647,"text":"我只是說因為很多的關係會連動但是也不是零和的就是說我們現在其實我跟委員報告日本跟中國日本跟台灣的關係也可以是平行也可以是有互相交集美國跟中國美國跟台灣的關係也可以平行也可以有一些連動的交集所以這個是很複雜又涉及到我們在印太的第一島鏈沒有集體安全的條約"},{"start":466.41,"end":482.634,"text":"就看雙邊的條約如果有的話我就不需要問這個問題就是因為沒有然後又發生了這個事件所以我才會問說那未來台日之間會不會有形成一個更明確的同盟關係或者是就是維持目前的現狀而已比剛才柯爺這個在問高知早苗的時候更假設性我一定會問一些假設性的問題因為這個scenario"},{"start":495.777,"end":523.286,"text":"這不是假設性的問題是因為如果我們有這樣的規劃的話那台日雙方那一定會先有一個粗淺的互動那有確認雙邊有意願之後才進一步的往前走嘛那所以它不是一個假設性的問題它是看到了這個中日之間的衝突升高而且與台灣有關之後那台日之間有沒有打算或者我方這裡有沒有可能向日本提議組成新一步的同盟"},{"start":523.806,"end":527.13,"text":"我們目前並沒有這樣的制度性的統統的關係這都是惡鬼對話或者是像自民黨內他有2加2的這個對話這樣我就非常了解您的意思了那最後想要請教一個問題喔就是不曉得您有沒有看到在這個週刊最近呢經常喔提到就您跟這個吳釗燮這個國安委會秘書長的關係"},{"start":545.589,"end":547.751,"text":"那坦白說我不知道為什麼這個媒體要不斷的用這樣子的方式然後呢寫這麼多的新聞然後來討論這些事情而且呢其實很多都是比如說放話社外人士說許思簡沒有辦法去美國是林佳龍在擋啊有些國安會議把林佳龍擋在門外啊然後呢這個刻意篩選什麼簡報啊等等細節我不想講因為這都叫做放話"},{"start":574.913,"end":592.352,"text":"我對於這種放話的新聞坦白說我是非常不屑的但為什麼今天要來這裡詢問您就是因為希望讓您有一個說明跟澄清的機會因為這已經是連續好幾次都有這樣子的新聞那我覺得既然我們一直在講台灣要團結中華民國要團結"},{"start":594.835,"end":621.533,"text":"如果今天連我們自己在國安會還有外交部都被內部的新聞人士或者是放話的人做成是像這樣子的內容的話對於我們一致對外絕對會是不利的所以是不是給我們部長一點點時間說明一下就是說到底您覺得為什麼會有這種情況那以及你覺得有什麼方式去改善或者是您的一些看法跟意見"},{"start":622.882,"end":644.159,"text":"報告委員我作為外交部長我很知道外交部的權責那我就是全力把它做好那至於有些媒體的報導有不實我們就澄清那也呼籲因為有一些是真的是與事實很大的出入啦可不可以我們講一下就是說但是標題下得很聳動對 標題很聳動可不可以在這個時間點稍微幫我們講一下說"},{"start":650.564,"end":655.026,"text":"在您看到這些裡面有哪一些與事實不符的因為我今天是希望給外交部一個很好的澄清的機會因為我覺得這些報導對我們的外交對我們的國家並不是好事好不好我跟委員報告就是根據我們的憲法還有我們包括外交部的組織法"},{"start":670.911,"end":692.782,"text":"那我的權責 那我要向立法院負責的我們的預算也是要立法院通過所以我是秉持這樣的原則我找外交部讓他發揮最大的功能至於別人或是其他或各種方式有不一樣的想法或是報導那我們就去說明那就是讓他在一個制度性的軌道上去讓"},{"start":694.423,"end":707.607,"text":"我講的就是壯大外交部就是壯大台灣我們外交也是國安的一部分我知道 因為我時間不夠我是要讓你說明說裡面到底有哪些地方寫是錯誤的嘛那你現在講哪一點比較具體比如說什麼徐思簡沒有辦法派出美國是你在黨"},{"start":722.643,"end":735.426,"text":"這一點來講就是我們外交部都沒有啟動對駐美代表人士的調整嘛這是事實所以我們就盡量的說明事實國安會有一些會議會把你擋在外面說實在弄得我頭很大因為我搞不太清楚他們在講的事情他說呢這個不知道不知會部長室直接通知外交部的單位把你呢擋在門外國安會的會議不讓你參加我覺得這個報導都太過"},{"start":753.271,"end":779.934,"text":"好像有一個天眼或是什麼擋在門外這怎麼可能的事情好然後呢這個台美的高層重要的特殊對話安全議題的平台2023年24年會議都是國安會秘書長跟外交部長一同赴美那今年外交部卻一度差點掉隊然後呢是您極力爭取次長陳明琦才能夠一同前往美國"},{"start":781.255,"end":789.777,"text":"有這件事嗎因為那時候我跟美國的一個溝通對話的管道都很暢通所以說謝謝您把這幾個內容大概就是這樣子然後是做了一個我也覺得很奇怪的報導啦那我也希望如果未來週刊它持續提出這樣子的放話而且不實的消息外交部要考慮除了澄清之外要考慮提高"},{"start":808.86,"end":825.986,"text":"我有抗議你有抗議因為我敢抗議就是代表我自己很清楚它有一些跟事實不合的地方會造成傷害我一定要說明這算是第二次了如果還有第三次跟第四次那您都認為與事實不符除了抗議之外我建議您要"},{"start":827.446,"end":853.821,"text":"更有勇氣去提告因為如果長此以往下去那對於台灣看我們包含我們自己人看外交部國安會以及那你說中國大陸他看外交部跟國安會世界各國看我們外交部跟國安會他看到都是錯誤資訊的時候對我們的國家形象一定是不利的所以這一點我想我支持部長繼續那為對的事情努力好不好謝謝好一起來努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9131a2a31cad6f6a754558ea7a01fa75879fa443352b7318b89c3fce4b81f0d65c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:42:54 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謝謝邱組長 國科會副組委請國科會副組委 蘇副組委 謝謝好 組長"},{"start":42.096,"end":58.955,"text":"署長我根據是前幾天的報導經濟日報經濟部規劃要在2025年到2028年要投入29億元那要推動所謂矽光子的國家隊那結合學研單位跟國內的一些廠商"},{"start":59.554,"end":87.577,"text":"那會聚焦在光晶片跟這個共封裝的光學元件CPU那我們也知道矽光紙大概現在產業界非常的夯因為從AI的所需要的一個晶片那現在都朝向就是複合式堆疊的包括我們現在說的CoreOS啦CorePass啦甚至叫做益智整合這樣的一些技術的一些研發但是看起來台灣在這方面"},{"start":88.217,"end":107.17,"text":"人才的培育是不足的这一点是对的吧是不是经济部先说明一下细光子部分就是比较熟悉我是不是请郭市长这边来回应你熟悉的直接上来谢谢委员的指教那有关细光子我想"},{"start":108.889,"end":135.371,"text":"希望是一個把電轉為光的過程然後用光來傳輸會比較快對就是光傳導嘛是那光老實講在以往在台灣或是說在世界是還沒有用這樣的方式來傳輸當然這是人才要培育是必須的那也是因為所以它就是一個嶄新的技術嘛就是過去是用電嘛過去所謂的半導體就是用電然後去做整個的運算"},{"start":135.791,"end":150.378,"text":"那現在就加入了光那如何要把這個光傳導然後再整合在晶片的兩塊晶片把它堆疊的時候用光傳導去加速它的運算所以就我的理解啦這裡面除了說"},{"start":151.398,"end":172.101,"text":"涉及到了傳統的一個物理之外它的材料學也很重要甚至它對光學的理解電學的理解都很重要所以它等於是一個嶄新的一個技術那這個技術裡面當然就需要這樣類似的一個人才了對 那你們現在人才端你們的計畫是怎樣如果以這樣的一個矽光子的國家對"},{"start":172.981,"end":194.679,"text":"那跟委員報告在目前我們剛剛委員提到29億這樣的一個4年的計畫那目前是由這個國客會這邊會來處理這有關他有的人才的專才的部分這邊提到是200名那另外在我們產業端的部分我們有工研院等等的單位在工業電光所這邊有投入這一塊"},{"start":195.579,"end":209.866,"text":"那這個是比較跟產業接觸的那這個部分我們也同時跟不管是跟業者的一個一起投入還有是跟也看學校這邊有什麼需求我們都有配合所以你們也是鼓勵這一些大學端"},{"start":210.566,"end":229.082,"text":"研究端那來加入這樣一個團隊未來來成立就是說你們矽光子國家隊你們現在預計至少要有200個專才嘛對不對要有200個專才那我直接跟你講一個好消息啦我們嘉義啦中正大學啦"},{"start":229.562,"end":256.765,"text":"事實上也是看準了這樣的一個因為未來台積電所謂COWAS的一個封裝廠他大概是以嘉義來做他未來的佈局所以大概中央大學目前非常的積極他甚至去找了你們所成立的矽光子聯盟去跟聯盟的一些策略長都有已經有初步的交換意見那甚至也去拜訪了這個北科大台科大的這個教授"},{"start":257.485,"end":280.977,"text":"大概就是說未來我們中正大學可能會在矽光子的研發上我們可能會先從微學程未來會到學位學程等於是說他就要朝向這裏來推進那是不是如果大學端中正大學已經有這樣的看準了現在未來國家需要矽光子國家隊的人才"},{"start":282.438,"end":288.808,"text":"那他願意來走出這一步那我想是不是站在國科會或跟經濟部應該是要予以他們更大的協助"},{"start":290.539,"end":310.933,"text":"這個非常重要 因為在嘉義這邊 如果是與發展矽光子這樣的一個產業就是等於封裝的半導體的部分的投入 那人才一定是非常重要的那所以這個部分我們 因為矽光子當然不只有製程 比如說台積電這一方還有一個設備 剛剛委員提到的材料的部分"},{"start":311.934,"end":337.381,"text":"那这个是一个整合性的所以我们先前有跟那个在结合这个跟中正大学的理工学院理院长还有一个干副院长对副院长所以你们已经有接洽了嘛对来谈这一些第一个就是说有关于这个我们学程怎么样来安排那怎么样去跟教育部来争取那个内容上什么课那我们要请什么样的师资跟什么业者一起来"},{"start":337.861,"end":348.086,"text":"就是說我們未來這個大學端都應該要變成一個產業很重要 工廠寬學產業很重要所以應該就是產業出題"},{"start":350.978,"end":376.941,"text":"產業出考題學術端訓練學生來答題應該就是常常這樣所以中文大學也是朝這樣的一個方向正在努力中就是說他可能會跟更多的產業包括目前銳益半導體他也很樂意在這一塊可以提供更多甚至我們也未來希望我們可以在中研院這邊也可以給我們更多的一個方向"},{"start":377.381,"end":394.329,"text":"那我覺得嘉義大學要成立所謂矽光子的這樣的一個學程我們站在我們現在推動這個產業的需求我們應該要全力來協助好不好是那第二個是說我看到這個這個產業的困境除了人才端"},{"start":395.309,"end":416.742,"text":"事實上也有說包括代工平台封測設備的能量不足那以及有缺少這個產品的驗測中心那所以這樣的一連串的這樣的一個問題目前你們這邊是怎麼計劃怎麼樣解決你們說到的目前困境您的方向是怎樣"},{"start":417.338,"end":444.507,"text":"現在目前電晶片 矽光紙大概要有幾個部分第一個是電晶片的部分 這個是沒有問題我們聯發科已經投入然後再來是光晶片那確實是由公務院這邊在協助業者一起來建立這樣的能力因為是先前沒有做這個部分那雷射的部分也有我們國內有些化合物半導體這部分是沒有問題是把整個封裝因為那要變成整個通道蠻多的通道 光線通道出去封裝要能夠 良率要能夠高的話這個也不一定是由公務院跟業者一起在"},{"start":445.127,"end":463.568,"text":"在準備中那也是在因為目前這樣的一個技術台積電是規劃2029年要量產所以我們2028年一定要完全完成這樣的相關的一個研發開發工作所以台積電希望2029量產嘛對不對好所以我們可能在你說好2028你要準備好這一些平台"},{"start":464.048,"end":483.524,"text":"好那所以這就是我現在一個疑問啦就是說好那我回到剛剛中央大學說他們一旦想要進入舊矽光子的一個學程那如果他們需要這樣的後端的一些平台啦驗檢的一個設備啦那他們應該要怎麼跟我們這邊國科會這邊來對接"},{"start":486.701,"end":507.902,"text":"在其實在半導體在國科會跟經濟部都有相關的那個製程平台我講可能是比如說我們這邊有一些半導體8吋跟12吋晶圓廠然後有一些封測有一些檢驗等等這個我們在尤其在供應院這邊裡面都有設置那我們也歡迎這個我們也正在跟中正大學在談說怎麼樣去做"},{"start":509.003,"end":535.609,"text":"除了在課堂上的講說之外那怎麼樣來做實務的這些實作那這個都是在我們的規劃以內對 因為他們有課程嘛他們還是需要有一些實作的一些場域啊所以可能未來 我覺得說中央大學現在這個他要把這樣的一個學位學程要把它推動出去的話我感覺可能也不是只有師資跟課程而已啦可能後邊後端他也需要更多設備的投入"},{"start":536.469,"end":560.682,"text":"所以可能未來都沒有人會這麼多 不過我覺得既然有學校要跳出來 要來承擔這個制定還是一樣啦 我們公部門盡量去協助大學 讓他把所謂的矽光子國家隊 然後在學位的學的這部分趕快把它落實 然後讓他不管是在師資啦 設備啦所以他未來所需要的一些經費 我們都應該予以協助 好不好好 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謝謝主席 我們請教育部次長請留次長好 次長 我知道教育部很努力這個在學校裡頭想辦法禁掉抖音小紅書這是台灣孩子的東西你們做得不錯這個方向是對的要繼續加油謝謝委員這些小紅書給我通過抖音不管叫抖音 叫TikTok"},{"start":33.07,"end":46.097,"text":"這都會害死台灣孩子啦這你一定要顧到第二個現在市長有沒有把握現在高中 國中 國小在校園裡面沒有人在看抖音我只能保證說我們的學術網路裡面沒有抖音跟小紅書好 那學生如果中間有機會用到手機他有沒有機會在學校裡頭拿抖音給同學看"},{"start":62.682,"end":71.877,"text":"是有可能的是有可能要不要禁掉教育部不是禁這個的主管機關機禁不禁得掉"},{"start":73.187,"end":99.307,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果是校園裡面的手機學生要使用手機是學習的用途所以如果不是學習的用途就是學校裡面是不會讓學生使用手機的學習的用途可不可以學習抖音跟委員報告這個部分應該是說這一些應該我們都有在宣導所以這個應該都是我們是會禁止的學校校園裡頭"},{"start":102.545,"end":121.972,"text":"這個投螢幕出來 電視裡頭出來會不會有抖音的影片應該不會因為如果他用的是學術網路是看的好 那手機有機會手機如果他連的是我們的學術網路是沒有機會的那如果連的是自己的 現在孩子都吃到飽了那算不算學校網路啦"},{"start":122.581,"end":143.396,"text":"对啊,如果学生用抖音的方式教的作业,如果要老师批阅的话,一样啊,他还是没有办法用,因为学校的本身没有这个机会。好,那学校的老师认不认为用抖音生小红书是不对的?"},{"start":144.281,"end":168.048,"text":"我們在教在我們的學士老師的在職技修上面我們都一再的一再的宣導而且是希望他們不要不要用再強調如果在校內使用抖音學術網路上是絕對好那學校老師有沒有反彈到目前我們還沒有收到任何的反彈確定"},{"start":173.617,"end":175.483,"text":"所以學校老師也不會反對"},{"start":177.206,"end":205.563,"text":"這個校園的學術網路上課的時候不用抖音對吧我當老師的時候我也不希望你當老師你是大學老師不一樣啊我現在講的是國中小老師啦我們的在老師的教學在媒體素養的培訓上面我們都要求因為老師很重要這個次長你在學校教書教學生教報告教他教PDF他就要教PDF教他教獲得他就要教獲得"},{"start":206.363,"end":232.637,"text":"對吧格式不對你就不會收嘛所以中小學的老師啊如果叫學生交作業交作業喔有一種作業叫比如暑假作業拍跟父母出去玩的影音圖文小朋友交抖音來如果學校老師說交抖音我不收交TikTok我不收他就回去跟家長講說我們老師說不可以我們老師只收什麼的這個比較快啦"},{"start":235.006,"end":262.08,"text":"是的没错吧是的在技术上面如果老师可以改作业是在学校环境里面那应该跟委员报告一样我们的学术网络上面并没有抖音这个APP所以学生即便教了这个他也没办法批阅所以势必老师会要求学生用IG或其他的形式来教教其实也达到刚才委员的方式好很好"},{"start":262.74,"end":270.129,"text":"希望教育部繼續努力把海獅、台灣鷹、抖音、TikTok、小紅書都刮刮出去它出去以後,要怎麼用家庭的東西,我們沒辦法管"},{"start":278.078,"end":297.928,"text":"阿公阿嬤也在看這個 我們無法處理在學校裡頭 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我要說我幫你下去啦我來替你找啦"},{"start":440.589,"end":449.413,"text":"現在其實每一個補費都在做你一個月的時間給我嘛然後我來替你推動這個社群我收集我之前聽到的這個庶民他們說我想要進入AI的世界我沒辦法你只要說三頁真真正正這個庶民要專門進入AI"},{"start":466.738,"end":492.514,"text":"我稍等要回來交給委員會 我要講 包括交給部今天交給部 我們有代表在這裡那可是真真正正 能讓台灣脫胎換骨鳳姐 我跟你講 只有我們這個電子銀行的高單價我幫你保證 完全沒有競爭力 感謝你跟委員報告 我們那個國發會其實有人才躍升計畫那個方案 有 裡面都有寫說怎麼樣去做啦我們會齁 會給那個法案 好不好"},{"start":496.136,"end":497.783,"text":"謝謝洪建委員 主委請回"}]}},{"id":"165701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913adb36aa45ff6236ff94607883e6102aefa443352b7318b89c5430e83854d74935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:28:38 - 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有請次長請劉次長好 次長好"},{"start":19.881,"end":46.012,"text":"我們今天在討論這個影音對這個孩子的影響但教育部的今日我們看到報告裡面有很多是引用國外的研究對吧但是在台灣我認為我們自己的孩子實際的使用狀況是什麼還有影響又是什麼目前的資料我覺得相對的不夠清楚我就提出幾個數據大家一起來探討BBC中文"},{"start":47.065,"end":61.979,"text":"有講出這份報導在台灣小紅書的活躍用戶大概300萬但是IG他擁有的這個使用國高中以下的用戶有89%有在使用IG82%使用FB"},{"start":67.495,"end":92.688,"text":"小紅書相對在國高中的使用用戶大概在30%左右所以我要說的是台灣的孩子到底怎麼用短影音怎麼去受到這些內容影響的狀況使用多久的短影音的內容去瀏覽甚至這些影響會造成什麼樣的一個變化目前看起來我覺得國內的資料相對不足也不夠系統化"},{"start":94.295,"end":109.933,"text":"那我也要問一下你看喔我們用這個國外的資料研究來推估孩子台灣的孩子的狀況我覺得有一定的差距為什麼作息的時間不同"},{"start":111.448,"end":124.037,"text":"因为我们的课程就不一样嘛孩子在学校待的时间就不一样嘛对不对我们是出了名的在亚洲地区我们出了名的是小朋友学习时间太长了好 课后的补习"},{"start":125.031,"end":153.557,"text":"基本上小朋友都要課後補習還有回家功課的模式也不一樣家庭陪伴的型態居住的環境跟國外都差的蠻多的所以國內的實證資料我覺得非常關鍵那想請問一下教育部目前有沒有做過完整的全國調查來掌握台灣學生目前對於整個短影音影片的使用狀況各位報告沒有那我請國教院補充說明"},{"start":154.926,"end":177.521,"text":"各位報告目前我們沒有針對有關短影音的部分來做相關的研究所以我們市長我剛剛講了說為什麼要用還有實際的差別你覺得重不重要重要重要我們要不要調查應該那您覺得多久可以調查完一年內希望可以再快一點"},{"start":179.505,"end":199.668,"text":"加油好不好因為你拖了一年的時候不要說你拖啦你執行了一年以後我們才知道狀況怎麼去下這個藥來對症下藥嘛對不對那就晚了一年了對於孩子的這個媒體識讀很重要你知不知道有一群民眾"},{"start":201.603,"end":225.32,"text":"國人是非常希望恢復禮義廉恥的你知不知道我知道那你知不知道現在21世紀AI世代媒體嗜讀就是很重要的品德教育之一對吧是的也是屬於為什麼他們想要著重於禮義廉恥就是希望品德教育嘛那現在的AI世代現在的媒體嗜讀就是"},{"start":226.221,"end":243.602,"text":"把這個部分做好品德教育就會做得好所以我認為半年可不可以剛剛我說的數據資料調查包委我認為這一個是全面性的研究跟調查半年可能"},{"start":244.557,"end":265.551,"text":"有點敢但是我再問你一次你覺得這個數據重不重要重要但是半年可以初步的報告這樣就好了因為我知道你不敢隨便答應啊半年你怕做不到啦但你知道很重要我們半年會給你初步的調查的調查至少你要有初步執行然後一年把它完整的調查出來可不可以可以可以可以我覺得了解台灣的孩子"},{"start":266.391,"end":295.285,"text":"才能夠對症下藥不然真的我們再拿到這個整個都是國外的研究不是說你們不認真我認為有一定的差距好不好國小國中高中各個年齡層大學他的短影音的使用量還有每天看什麼平台對不對剛剛我講的89在IG82%在FB小紅書才主要是30%當然他沒有提到TikTok但是我認為TikTok也蠻多的"},{"start":295.965,"end":324.265,"text":"有多多喔 我舉一個案例就好了我們在國小前幾年吧當你走進去 你對著小朋友經過他旁邊喔 你說愛你孤身走暗巷他馬上會回一句愛你不畏的模樣當你跟他走過去 你會說這是 為什麼就是短影音他們流行的歌曲嘛"},{"start":325.756,"end":353.837,"text":"你就知道他們在流行什麼嘛所以他只是一首歌但是他的傳播力我想最近大家都知道嘛那個王世堅委員匆匆忙忙游刃有餘嘛也是非常非常的爆紅但是我要再跟您說明的一件事情今天也有很多委員跟你在講不是我們要幫Ttalk講話小紅書講話我們沒有要幫他們講話而是我們要知道整個使用用戶到底他的習慣在哪裡就講一個最白的就好了"},{"start":354.864,"end":368.552,"text":"今天你是一個網紅你在TikTok拍的影片你會不會希望直接也搬到FB直接就上架會嘛會不會直接就在IG就上架"},{"start":370.289,"end":387.052,"text":"會嘛因為他好不容易拍出這個影片了嘛他在TikTok看到有流量他會不會直接希望在FB也有流量會嘛所以不是只是封TikTok就好了今天如果你把他封了我們的媒體勢度能夠救上來我一定支持但是我們發現就是"},{"start":387.933,"end":402.967,"text":"所有的這些直播主也好網紅也好他一定會將所謂的短影片直接搬家在不同的平台上架所以會影響到我們的孩子的絕對是影片的內容而不是單一平台"},{"start":404.384,"end":433.443,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠了解那再來我要跟你講的就是說更重要的是孩子滑多久滑完之後有什麼改變我們要去了解因為在教育現場直接就可以看到怎麼說小朋友滑很久上課注意力一定會下降睡眠不足情緒起伏比較大模仿不良行為所以這些甚至有容貌焦慮影響到學習的一個生態教育部有沒有對這些現象做過調查追蹤"},{"start":434.324,"end":448.217,"text":"我認為應該都是沒有的啦所以我希望一定要做我們有看到教育部有委託陽明教大在112年台灣中小學學生網路使用的行為調查報告"},{"start":450.171,"end":463.923,"text":"這份資料有啊這份資料很重要啊大家主要是中小學生啊而且觀察的是整體網路使用狀況並不是專門針對短影片啊也沒有看到高中跟大學所以有做有潛力只是不夠紮實啊"},{"start":465.802,"end":494.699,"text":"短影片現在的影響力是最高的變化最快的最推進學生的日常媒介所以為什麼需要更精準數據所以今天你承諾你一定會做是嗎好我想這個東西只有補齊了不管是對我們家長教育現場甚至教育部未來的一些政策衛福部也好抒發部也好我覺得有一個很重要的一個政策能夠指引所以我希望加油好嗎好的謝謝第二個我要說的是"},{"start":495.82,"end":523.104,"text":"你們在書面報告有提供到現在有這個數位工具包的成效我們看到很多都是校園端能夠做的防護措施包括封鎖不當的平台平板的管理校園過濾網路的過濾以及提供家長的守護兒少的數位工具包這都是校園端可以做的這我真的要講別再幫學校老師增加工作了"},{"start":523.484,"end":533.412,"text":"那老师真的很辛苦老板就是拜托你相关的这些补贴给他们多一点但是有一个实质的问题我们不能忽视"},{"start":534.901,"end":558.198,"text":"小朋友使用短影音最大宗的時間九成以上都在校園外放學假日睡前補習的路上等校車的路上這些都是教育不管不到的啊所以真正累積的一個影響最後回到了影響到學校我要幫學校講話"},{"start":560.185,"end":582.247,"text":"所以教育部要怎麼樣跨部位再來想辦法努力學校外的事情處理校外的風險教育部在今年5月14召開記者會宣布四大方案之一就是一個家長兒少的工具包啊但是你們那個時候我要問當時說到9月9月後還有嗎還有還有到現在都有對"},{"start":583.541,"end":606.488,"text":"一直都會有一直都會有好那問題我們繼續講現在過了大約半年時間工具包相關的懶人包啊操作手冊教學影片我只能說很認真準備但是沒有人要看所以早上已經有人說了嘛你們這實際的瀏覽數實際的下載量你們有相關的數據嗎下載量有多少"},{"start":608.769,"end":633.528,"text":"我們現在瀏覽量目前六月到現在有一萬五千人瀏覽六月到現在一萬五對一萬五早上不是有委員說三百多那個是YouTube的影片我們而且會即時更新所以他在那個影片會有六...我要講的是說還是很少啦有Google的有iOS的有Microsoft的但是"},{"start":634.289,"end":650.715,"text":"整個看到素材整理的很用心但是怎麼樣能夠推廣出去你配合四大業者三大業者那你覺得他真的會落實嗎有沒有誘因這些畢竟是他們是商業模式啊"},{"start":652.452,"end":676.551,"text":"難道你有辦法告訴他每一個在修理手機買手機的都會主動推銷要下載我們的工具包嗎有沒有誘因我認為沒有誘因沒有誘因你要怎麼樣讓他們能夠在推廣這個工具包更落實剛剛我們在講的活躍用戶小紅書30%你知道FB的下載量是多少嗎你知道IG多少嗎"},{"start":682.588,"end":704.931,"text":"一定很少為什麼因為手機一買直接就在裡面了啦他是內建程式我們的工具包有辦法做到內建嗎不可能嘛但是有沒有辦法再跟業者好好的溝通增加誘因讓業者在第一線的這些工作人員願意推廣羊毛豬在羊身上啊我們持續溝通"},{"start":706.199,"end":721.05,"text":"這雖然不是你單一的責任但是我們講很現實的你要利用三大業者這樣的方向本席一定認同但是你要怎麼用到淋漓盡致不是我有用了結果沒有推廣出去不是你的問題不是啊"},{"start":721.75,"end":747.005,"text":"你們整理這麼好的素材還做了懶人包沒有人要下載有什麼用呢真正能夠幫助這些工具包我覺得希望能夠更加的落實不是透過iWIN而已iWIN很好但是iWIN是被動接受檢舉嘛能不能主動出擊這個部分我希望能夠再加強推動半年了目前為止我認為這樣的使用數據跟效果真的有待加強而且弱勢家長"},{"start":748.527,"end":771.655,"text":"他們對於這樣子的一個使用能力去看到懶人包甚至他覺得用到一半他就不會想去用了啊透過業者幫忙主動教學嗎我覺得很難啊所以我要講的是這樣的做法有了初步的方向但是怎麼落實很重要請你加油好 慧德謝謝羅廷維委員質詢 官員請回答"}]}},{"id":"165700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913a694d27f5de0144b50d730950bdd7c8afa443352b7318b89b165d9c3a9e3ea845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:27:15 - 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我們請部長好 謝謝 請林部長"},{"start":11.963,"end":39.919,"text":"部長早 委員好部長今天我要特別針對台日關係跟你就教幾個問題那特別是我們最近有看到這個高市總理針對台灣有事的發言那他在他的這個問答答辯中他有提到說台灣有事可能會構成日本安全保障法中的存亡危機事態那日本可能可以得以行使集體的自衛權那我個人是肯定這樣的立場"},{"start":40.859,"end":59.874,"text":"但是我們有持續感受到中方他有在把他上升就是把這個情勢上升情勢上升成武力介入情勢上升成彩虹線那而且有強力抗議那我們當然是在整個東亞地區印太地區我們都不想要看到情勢的上升那就你的理解"},{"start":60.655,"end":81.585,"text":"台灣有事 日本有事 其中的存款危機事態怎麼樣可以用積極正面的方式來去了解它而不是上升情勢的方式來去理解它這個可不可以請部長來說明一下你的看法我們如果詳細去看高屍爪毛首相的談話"},{"start":85.498,"end":114.21,"text":"其實他是很一致而且是符合日本包括安保法的規定這個政策也是行之有年從安倍晉三前首相就開始我想只是說那他把講的舉例說明的時候中共想要去制止這樣的事情繼續發展所以想要升高衝突然後也想針對高市早苗政策畫一條紅線"},{"start":115.821,"end":137.956,"text":"然後要 就是其實在進行一個複合式的戰爭是包括文攻武嚇 經濟脅迫也包括就是把觀光旅遊跟所有的貿易這些關係都武器化那這個對台灣都用過 有沒有效"},{"start":138.917,"end":154.384,"text":"有時候反而反效果但是中共也有他可能不得不他想要升高衝突去達到的目標可是也會有反效果因為就像用民族主義去動員社會這個是兩面的刃"},{"start":155.74,"end":181.392,"text":"那會不會失控我們當然就密切觀察跟因應所以呢他講的跟做的我們也必須要很就是說掌握他的實況不要變成他這個操作認知作戰或宣傳戰的一部分這個是我是說我們政府官員當然我們對於高次早苗的談話我們這個是認為他是一項的政策那台灣"},{"start":182.572,"end":195.431,"text":"在這點上是支持的立場可是怎麼樣以具體行動大家來表達支持這個就是我想委員關心的我想台日之間的友好發生任何的天災地變"},{"start":196.701,"end":224.936,"text":"大家都是發自內心去不管是去捐款救災或是用什麼方式去表達可能去買自由的鳳梨等所以我覺得台灣人我們要以行動來支持高市早苗 首相這樣的一個印太戰略尤其在第一島鏈的政策這涉及到日本 台灣還有所有包括周邊國家的共同的利益"},{"start":226.517,"end":249.918,"text":"也因此我們現在因為中共也有一個失言甚至我認為是失態 失控就是他們的駐大阪的總領事薛健所以這個其實火上加油那也因為這個是完全違反外交的這個基本的原則涉及到這一種"},{"start":251.82,"end":265.218,"text":"非常粗暴而且甚至是有鼓勵犯罪所謂的斬首論這種話所以這個也是必須要被檢驗的所以我是覺得這件事情怎麼樣去"},{"start":266.533,"end":284.945,"text":"把局面穩定下來我們也要呼籲中共方面也要克制那我們跟日本還有各個理念相近國家尤其是鄰近國家共同來處理好中共可能的反應那避免影響了整個包括台海的和平穩定以及第一島鏈的這個情勢"},{"start":288.103,"end":307.111,"text":"不知道其實我們簡單來講那是符合日本政府大概一貫的對他們安全的這個方向大概是不變的那我們也希望藉著這個場域來說明說我們是希望維持現狀我們希望預防衝突那任何預防衝突的可能性我們必須當然就是要透過這樣子的合作"},{"start":307.731,"end":327.822,"text":"那這一次從他們提到日本有事之後我們也看到中方把他們的觀光客武器化把他們的貿易武器化包含他們要禁止這個日本的水產品來進入他們的市場等等我想這就是要提醒我們所有的民眾那中方會用各種的用經濟的手段來去干預"},{"start":329.002,"end":350.498,"text":"一些國家的內政也會用經濟的手段來去影響這些國家如果不站照他們的框架去走如果不按照他們的意識跟政見去走的話可能就會受到傷害所以為了要維持我們的經濟安全那我們可能跟日方甚至包含跟韓國來共同來去思考有什麼樣的安全保障的架構特別先從經濟安全上面來講"},{"start":351.258,"end":373.601,"text":"因為我們不能夠把所有的貨品產品聚焦在單一國家如果聚焦在單一國家的話如果他們把它貿易武器化的話我們就看到類似的狀況出現包含稀土也是 包含農水產品也是包含觀光客也是這些我想因為我們現在是總和外交我們當然要跟各個不同的部門一起來統合這部分我也必須要"},{"start":374.879,"end":400.425,"text":"談到在這個總和外交裡面農業上面的政策上面的交換是非常重要的那最近這幾次我們去訪日的時候也有跟農業相關的這一些官員們或者是這一些國會議員們都有交換意見特別是針對我們最近的一些非洲豬瘟跟這種大型的傳染病等等那他們在怎麼樣把這個他們的蓄產業全面性的用飼料來去餵養的這種做法"},{"start":401.625,"end":421.05,"text":"這種經驗傳承跟分享我認為這就是很適合我們的農業部來去做意見交換的也就是說未來台日之間的外交不僅僅是在安全我知道安全上面的議題大家很願意去談戰略上面的議題大家很願意去談但其實他們在一些細部上面的政策層次上面的應用比方說他們基本上他們的豬隻的這一個飼養"},{"start":424.291,"end":443.597,"text":"96%是用這個飼料94%是用飼料6%也是用飼料不過是用過去那種再生Echo的這種資源回收的方式得到的好的飼料來提供給這些畜牧產業我們透過這些以議題為導向的交換意見那我們在各個層次的交流就會更密切所以我們不要"},{"start":444.477,"end":473.309,"text":"就外交禮儀談外交我們不用只用價值談外交我們要在全面性的在經濟上面在農業上面在環境上面包含在觀光旅行上面它沒有什麼長處我們都可以來去做應用我想這些都是有幫助的最後我要提醒剛才我們提到這些台日關係我們之間的關係是很密切的那是人跟人之間的友情也好人跟人之間的關係也是有利害關係在那我們是希望說台日關係是要有自己的坐標它不用因為反中而傾談"},{"start":474.409,"end":497.996,"text":"也不會因為友中而疏遠台灣我們外交部在對陸政策上面是以台灣為主體的長期利益跟民主價值為歸一我們不必去操作他們的反中或者我們不去希望那些日本的這些親中的人來去反對我們不用 我們有自己的坐標 我們用自己的坐標來去努力所以我特別提到 這個青年的留學計畫我們先從年輕的一代 新的世代開始"},{"start":499.016,"end":513.962,"text":"那日本的台灣教育協會從2017年起除了疫情期間他們有招募台灣高中生參與這個SGH計畫就是Super Global High School的計畫前往日本留學一年培養知日友台的未來人才"},{"start":514.542,"end":539.98,"text":"那我認為他們願意把資源送台灣的孩子來到他們的國家來去學習來去跟他們建立關係那是一個長期的關係他們在培育的是未來一個世代兩個世代對台注重的這一個世代所以我認為我們台灣自己也應該用外交跟七年百億就是我們賴總統推動的七年百億台灣圓夢計畫的基礎我們來思考一下怎麼樣是"},{"start":541.181,"end":566.663,"text":"重點的你不要把資源都放在台北台中高雄這種都會區包含我們嘉義包含雲林包含鄰近的南投都可以這些偏鄉的這些高中生能夠有機會從他們高中時期這個都是一輩子難忘的經驗就可以建立起這樣的管道我自己在日本留學的時候我也是去他們的參議員的辦公室去實習也是一年到現在我們還是有這樣持續的關係在存在這是長期的投資"},{"start":567.404,"end":589.907,"text":"那我認為這就是以台灣為自己的座標來去精進台日之間的關係是以青年為座標我們投資的是這一代下一代跟下下一個世代上下就可以30年到40年那這樣子的投資是有效益的有長遠的計畫的包含我們主席高中他們從311之後就跟東日本大震災之後的這些受災的一些高中們有建立聯誼的關係"},{"start":591.608,"end":612.122,"text":"如果說未來我們真的是很希望說有更多的資源包含外交部的資源教育部的資源能夠讓我們這一些偏鄉的高中的同學至少有一年有一次也好那不見得可能日本台灣教育協會他是有這個留學一年我們不見得要那麼長期短期的計劃特別針對非都市型的高中"},{"start":613.413,"end":637.325,"text":"中張頭 雲嘉南這些縣市中南部的這些縣市能夠有機會把這些過去集中所在都市的資源給我們讓我們能夠去這樣的交流那包含我們族群高中有類似的這樣的案例我們希望說新港高中 協同高中等等各個不同的高級中學都有這樣的機會那這部分是不是外交部能夠給我們一些協助"},{"start":637.645,"end":651.705,"text":"能夠擴大一些專案讓我們這些高中的朋友們能夠來去爭取那我們去也可以日方來也可以各位部長簡單的回應一下我非常認同委員的這個主張事實上我過去"},{"start":653.327,"end":666.292,"text":"擔任這個國安會諮詢委員那時候二十幾年前我們就是在推動這個高校生休業旅行現在也看到開發結果一年都超過五萬人以上那獎學金的話這個留學生雙向怎麼樣再增加更多的預算跟員額我在當交通部長的時候我那時候還鼓勵就是說大家"},{"start":676.235,"end":701.363,"text":"日本人來的這些年輕的所謂的畢業旅行或是他們講的休業旅行能夠往中南部那我們也跟高鐵所謂的假期的那種票結合因為有一些不是尖峰時間然後把時速郵購型整合讓他可以往台灣的南部走這個也曾經我們在推動那現在在外交部就是我們有非常多"},{"start":702.263,"end":731.121,"text":"這一個人才的交流包括青年大使 農業大使等等這一個其實在跟日本方面現在也是有在增加這一個整個我們的計畫的能量所以委員提到的沒有錯台灣不是只有台北然後因為他們考慮到到南部去可能交通的費用我們怎麼樣來減少他的負擔另外就是讓台灣的社團像四大社團 像福倫社他們都是很國際性的也可能扮演一些接待家庭"},{"start":731.981,"end":745.267,"text":"這個整體配合起來之後一個年輕人他到了一個國家他影響他一輩子他的家人親友他的同事都會對台灣開始了解產生了後續非常豐富可能他對他一生對社會的一個很好的成果"},{"start":752.998,"end":774.511,"text":"非常感謝部長最後一小點補充一下跟農業有相關的那包含我們在新港的一個文教基金會那其實日方有來也來體驗我們的田間文化就直接下田去或者是做採果這樣子的方式那他們的這些年輕的同學們進來也可以體會到我們的農業那我認為這個東西就是總和外交的一部分我們過去可能在"},{"start":775.772,"end":788.826,"text":"這種質詢的範圍上面都是偏傳統外交或者是價值外交那已經遠遠沒有辦法面對21世紀的挑戰那圖用價值它沒有辦法驅動一切那由商業為導向那總和外交為導向我覺得還是一個比較好的方向謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913f8db4718a46b85153be06babd869ba0afa443352b7318b8910110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:21:58 - 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謝謝主席 我先請我們司法院副秘書長好 請王副秘"},{"start":15.467,"end":37.477,"text":"委員好好 副秘書長好跟你討論一個判決案子這個在台灣社會對於打假球不管是棒球或者是籃球大家都深惡痛絕那非常不幸的在SBL在2023年的時候進行第二十屆的賽程"},{"start":43.42,"end":66.074,"text":"爆發了打假球的事件這個案子當然該辦就辦但是最近這個案子判決結果出來多名SBL的假球案他的判決基本上是可以看到他其實還有牽涉到很多的球員"},{"start":67.935,"end":82.487,"text":"但其中柯敏豪他是MVP球員他是犯罪佐得178,000元判刑7年 他是判的最重另外有一位吳季穎"},{"start":84.028,"end":102.086,"text":"他的犯罪所得一百二十九万缓刑五年他是在这个案子里面拿到钱犯罪所得最高的另外像陈品权他的犯罪所得七千元他拿最少但是他被判四年四个月"},{"start":103.067,"end":123.693,"text":"然後有一位邱繼偉這個邱繼偉呢其實呢他是最有問題因為他是組頭他是地下組頭他的犯罪所得三萬五千元也被判緩刑好這個案子出爐之後在運動圈呢引起了很多的討論大家覺得"},{"start":126.844,"end":144.815,"text":"這是判刑的標準是什麼這個案子的判刑標準據說是因為其中有兩位他們當污點證人咬出其他的人所以他們被判緩刑但是"},{"start":147.689,"end":164.447,"text":"這個邱繼偉他本身呢是主頭而且呢這個這個吳季穎他又是犯罪所得最高的也許是他們兩個人去咬出其他人所以他們都被判這個"},{"start":166.486,"end":195.151,"text":"緩刑那所以像這種在這個社會在運動圈矚目的案件那其他的其他的球員他們不管他們拿到的金額是多少大概也都沒有判緩刑而且呢都判到4年起碼有的是大概3年到4年左右所以我想請問一下副秘書長像我們在整個的"},{"start":197.391,"end":221.296,"text":"這個良刑的時候如果單單只就說您有沒有去咬出其他的人但是主頭是罪有問題的罪有問題就被判緩刑那這代表什麼他以後再去搞一攤這一攤搞完了然後骨頭乾年後這個風聲比較鬆了然後他再去搞一攤"},{"start":222.762,"end":252.198,"text":"反正他去被判緩刑所以這樣的案件會不會有爭議性請問一下副秘書長保護委員那個本院是執司司法行政就是我們沒有審審這個案那所以說這個案件裡面他的那個卷證跟裡面的這些事證到底呈現了什麼那個資料我們並不是陳審法官所以我們無從置諱就是這個我們要尊重那個審判核心我們我們並不那個就並不清楚裡面的"},{"start":252.398,"end":263.598,"text":"每一次问你们相关的案子你们都说这是个案要尊重成审法官就是因为个案你们不清楚但是我们在这边每一次指出来的"},{"start":264.304,"end":292.55,"text":"人民對於司法良心合不合理對於司法能不能夠信任其實就是在這些個案一一累積出來的所以我覺得在我們一直在講說當然司法改革現在聽起來像笑話司法改革震天架響喊了這麼多年我們也沒有看到司法有改革司法也沒有再貼近人民那甚至司法還被那個政治干預但是這個案子我要特別提醒司法院"},{"start":293.87,"end":321.846,"text":"這個是在他不是政治性案子但是對於台灣社會大家對於打假球案件這麼生物痛絕的狀況之下主頭判緩刑大家會覺得怎麼主頭還可以被判緩刑那請問以後是不是是放縱還是包庇這些打假球案呢所以這一點是那個要特別提出來好時間暫停一下我再請我們的保護部次長"},{"start":326.011,"end":346.73,"text":"等一下 鳳鳴長 劉卜接下來要跟你們就教的這個在昨天其實在我們未還委員會有討論但是我覺得它蠻重要昨天未還委員會主要是要修法因為前一陣子在新北市有一個違反家暴令的男子"},{"start":347.651,"end":375.694,"text":"他被釋放之後立刻當街殺了他的太太跟他的小姨子那引起社會的嘩然所以怎麼可以就是違反保護令然後立刻去殺人但是呢這個案子引起大家比較高度的關注但是就在那個時間非常接近的時候其實台北市還有一個案子就是這個女公關她被割喉慘死"},{"start":376.995,"end":402.662,"text":"大家後來也才發現說她也是一樣她也是被家暴而且呢施暴者施暴者其實也是違反保護令然後回來就把那個女公關給當街割喉慘死所以我們就要去討論這個違反保護令的問題在昨天我們在委員會都有提到也就是"},{"start":403.562,"end":432.043,"text":"家暴的申請羈押率以及被羈押率都非常非常的低羈押率我記得大概就是5%上下而已那當然 當時呢 我們檢察司司長是說因為家暴案件啊 他的探向非常非常多他的母數很大好 但是我現在要跟兩位討論的違反保護令 違反保護令那個 鳳鳴長 保護令是司法院發的吧"},{"start":433.055,"end":462.134,"text":"所以一般被家暴的人比如說夫妻吵架怎麼樣啪啪被打兩個耳光或怎麼樣你可能也拿不到保護令這種不容易吧對不對你保護令拿到保護令也是要有一定的標準比如說你要去驗傷然後他有一定的暴力行為或者還有一定長時間的施暴所以法院才會發給他保護令限制他的一些這個施暴者的行為"},{"start":463.195,"end":489.44,"text":"但是我剛才指的這個兩個例子是比較老實說他是比較極端例子他違反保護令之後還去殺人但是事實上在社會有很多的狀況是違反保護令之後繼續去騷擾違反保護令之後繼續去施暴違反保護令之後呢一再的違反保護令恃若無睹所以我要講"},{"start":490.663,"end":514.778,"text":"我們可不可以往一個方向去做討論如果違反保護令就應該構成羈押的條件否則的話它的成本很低嘛它速度違反保護令也無所謂啊它可能一直要等到說它真的有可能再去做什麼樣的暴力那種"},{"start":515.898,"end":535.775,"text":"違反到真的是很可能造成這個當事人受害者的這個他的什麼生命財產的安全所以我的意思就是說以我們現在我們希望能夠在保護保護這些富有然後要降低家暴而且要讓家暴者付出一定的代價"},{"start":536.576,"end":559.484,"text":"可是我們看到從2021年到2024年違反保護令的案件事實上是增加的而且增加的件數是非常多的所以我在想請問我們檢查系統我們的法院系統在違反保護令我認為刑度都過低啦你看連續發生這兩個悲劇"},{"start":562.385,"end":581.555,"text":"是不是可以在違反保護力的狀況之下他就構成羈押條件你讓他押一下讓他付出代價阿伯每次都說你要考慮到他的心理啊他很容易暴怒啊他更容易什麼傷害啊你讓他羈押違反保護力你讓他羈押"},{"start":582.874,"end":601.599,"text":"讓他cool down讓他知道你違反保護令你要付出這樣的代價否則的話 很多好幾次 一而再 再而三呢市法院保護令為無誤所以我想先請教市長這個部分有沒有可能我們經過什麼樣的方式去給他精進"},{"start":602.587,"end":629.649,"text":"各位報告我們羈押在刑訴法當然有特別的羈押的要件但是家暴法它為了保護這個保護令的這個有效性所以它家暴法對羈押要件它做了一個特別的處理它跟我們刑訴法不一樣所以換句話說你違反家暴法的保護法的令的話它基本上你反覆實施進一個防衛的狀態犯罪性重大它就創造一個新的一個羈押室友事實上家暴法在30條之一它是有做特別的處理的"},{"start":630.089,"end":655.166,"text":"就羈押要建議他做一個稍微鬆綁於刑訴法上的規範他其實是有做特別的規範所以你認為說如果我剛才講的就是說讓這個違反保護令讓他就應該構成羈押條件對 他犯罪嫌疑重大有反覆讓他沒有機會讓他一再的違反要 你的意思說就要去修這個家暴法不用修 家暴法30條之一現在就有特別的規範了他有不同刑訴的規範"},{"start":656.167,"end":661.251,"text":"他只要犯罪嚴重的反覆那如果說不用修法 那就是你們第一線嘛檢察官也好 或者法院也好那為什麼我們可以看到 一再違反家暴令呢一再違反家暴令 也沒有壓他 然後就讓他放回去放回去之後呢 他就開始去騷擾有的是怎麼敲門 踹門 破門而入怎麼去騷擾 跟騷等等之類的 或者再繼續施暴那嚴重的就是我講的"},{"start":684.409,"end":692.304,"text":"這都是今年的案例 都是今年案例直接當街殺人不是一宗 而是連續兩宗的事件"},{"start":693.911,"end":719.191,"text":"所以那個市長你還是覺得你們在檢查系統沒有什麼精進的辦法當然委員提到要不要羈押當然要個案他去決定我是說在法治工具上他是齊備的法治工具不會欠缺在個案上檢察官他去判斷我們就沒有辦法智慧但法律工具他是應該沒有問題的那請問一下副秘書長呢副秘書長看法如何"},{"start":721.339,"end":734.076,"text":"同意那個次長的意見次長沒有意見啦老家我講半天為什麼要請你講 你們兩個都這樣講我認為違反加爆令就應該羈押啦我直接說 你加爆令是隨便發的嗎"},{"start":735.458,"end":761.518,"text":"家暴令不是不能随便发不是吗报告委员因为现在在那个有关于那个积压那个要件确实在那个家暴防治法里头他已经有一个做一个那个特别规定了那这个当然就是实务上怎么做的问题可是就是说一律如果说完全不留下这种裁量那个空间违反那个家暴令就积压的话他可能对于本来给你们裁量空间但是呢"},{"start":762.219,"end":780.746,"text":"但是留財糧空間的結果就發生像這樣的案例因為家暴的太陽太多了就是有些他可能那個侵害法益真的沒那麼重沒有錯因為檢察官的意思說家暴我剛才就講嘛有時候你可能什麼夫妻吵架或短暫性或什麼"},{"start":781.526,"end":803.426,"text":"你還不容易拿到這個保護令因為拿到保護令它是有門檻的保護令是有門檻的我現在不是說你違反就是你家暴你就應該羈押而是你違反了保護令你違反保護令有給你一些這個限制然後這是法院發的保護令然後你還違反"},{"start":804.807,"end":832.025,"text":"就應該進行羈押我是這樣認為啊我不想再看到這樣的這種悲劇再發生啦是不是希望檢查系統也好或者法院系統也好看到我們違反保護令的案件節節升高那就代表是不是根本我們在司法上面沒有這個遏止的一個效果好不好"},{"start":832.947,"end":839.136,"text":"好希望我希望在法務部跟那個司法院能夠去做一些研擬好不好好謝謝好謝謝王委員"}]}},{"id":"165698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913cad2cd6a72e70f8a558ea7a01fa75879fa443352b7318b899c2ab639a50d16805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:27:32 - 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抒發部衛福部其實都有牽涉到我想就先一起出來好了謝謝衛福部"},{"start":16.765,"end":33.88,"text":"有速發部有國家通訊傳播委員會還有網際網路傳播辦公室那是還有教育部對都可以都一起來都到嗎那就請有次長請胡竹蜜請黃竹蜜還有檢認視察李嘉玲都到"},{"start":38.944,"end":55.773,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為今天委員會安排的主題是如何防範不當的短影音跟社群平台的兒少內容那希望怎麼來加強數位跟媒體的素養那我這邊有看到一個中研院它的一個針對2023年資料庫所做的調查"},{"start":58.875,"end":81.863,"text":"那其中呢就是来使用这个TikTok的比例18岁以下国小4乘3国中5乘7高中5乘那其实这个是最保守的调查统计例如像家福的话国中是7乘所以我们在这个地方就可以看到其实孩子们会去使用"},{"start":82.603,"end":109.579,"text":"这个影音媒体其实并不意外因为孩子青少年他就会基于社交因素为了要交朋友为了要跟上流行的话题所以他会去下载使用那么在立法院的法治局其实多年来也一直很关心这样的一个议题像是他引用英国非盈利组织反数位仇恨中心的一个调查报告"},{"start":110.279,"end":131.349,"text":"這個TikTok每2.6分鐘推送自殺內容每8分鐘推送飲食失調內容每39秒推薦負面身心健康影片所以這樣的一個狀況像2022年的數據他說平均每天TikTok使用107分鐘遠遠是YouTube的兩倍"},{"start":135.251,"end":153.257,"text":"那到現在2025年我想這個數據是更驚人所以我們其實看到很多手法啦我舉個例子像我們是原住民那南島語族到底起源中國福建還是起源南島那他可以透過這個TikTok舉個例子毛利人來自中國嗎這個對年輕人來講"},{"start":155.458,"end":178.119,"text":"很吸引他宇宙生命的起源他要追寻自我的时候这些话题都很吸引他他就跳进去看又或者是说像现在很流行就是用AI来配音你要什么歌他都生给你假人 假曲 假音他就会去制造一些没人没有说过的话"},{"start":178.74,"end":191.151,"text":"像我們的年輕人假設很崇拜林木一郎那他就冒用林木一郎沒有說過的話去吸引你又或者說像之前這個總統大家就是三人成虎就說叫老人家去爬那每個人就會說我們賴總統叫老人家去爬屋頂然後就仇恨自己的國家元首"},{"start":201.661,"end":215.727,"text":"又或者是說像現在的孩子看多了因此他開始喜歡用支那語用支語那像是很多的語言視頻他就不講影片了公車他就講成公交車諸如此類我們的土豆其實是他們的馬鈴薯所以搞得我們也不知道他到底在講什麼"},{"start":224.83,"end":252.949,"text":"那他的作文呢全篇也覺得這是流行他也覺得很酷很炫那很多這個認知的部分就是已經學生他們都問他要不要打仗他們都喜歡統一就不戰自敗也都不用打仗了用這種溫水煮的方式甚至是用網紅他看起來是知識頻道其實他在裡面偷渡了很多意識形態的東西那又或者是說他們這個整個產業鏈呢"},{"start":254.75,"end":272.307,"text":"其实也都是一条龙流水线的方式从哪里出来它有一个中央厨房然后有一个脸书的内容农场然后转到哪里特定媒体渲染之后平面媒体等等就这样扩散开来用这种反串嫁祸不生美举啦"},{"start":273.447,"end":293.179,"text":"甚至自相AI的影片其實大家也都看到就是比過去的假訊息這種反串嫁禍其實還要發揮的淋漓盡致那回到我們教育我們在12年國教課剛有看到資訊教育這裡頭呢資訊科技的使用態度也強調習慣態度還有資訊的倫理等等"},{"start":297.441,"end":323.193,"text":"但是我們翻遍所有的版本所有的教科書發現只有國中的公民他有教媒體試讀然後我們的國小翻遍綜合健康發現根本沒有相關的內容所以我們最需要預防的應該是我們的國小"},{"start":324.461,"end":341.827,"text":"結果我們發現漏接那這個部分是學生所以我想先請教一下我們的次長教育部次長就是我們已經進入到一個後真相時代就是我們知道哎呀也有真也有假那我乾脆就全部都不相信好了"},{"start":343.007,"end":370.678,"text":"那這個部分現在媒體試讀它其實會變成是很重要的一個素養但是我們的課本所教的內容已經不敷所需或甚至根本沒有所以請教一下市長你是不是認同像我們的國小中高年級甚至是從低年級開始我們是不是應該要重新去檢視我們這些綜合健康等等領域"},{"start":371.758,"end":381.81,"text":"那這些是不是應該要有教授如何辨識這些媒體呀或者是對這些身心健康有害的內容需不需要"},{"start":383.39,"end":404.138,"text":"当然需要那有做吗有现在我们在12年国民教育的课纲里面的综合活动领域在国小第三学期阶段的时候就纳入了所谓的那个媒体试读的学习的内容那有相当多有各式媒体资源的分析判读"},{"start":405.398,"end":431.249,"text":"要老師帶領然後還有媒體對平常生活的影響然後還有各式各樣的解決資源那不管是康軒或者是南一或者是漢林他們都有相對的一些課程我們事後會再把一些說明給委員看是都有啦那這些內容老師他是怎麼樣的進行教學"},{"start":432.199,"end":457.5,"text":"我們在 我剛才有講過就是說我們現在所有的中小學老師我們都有給他們的AI或者數位媒體的課程那是進修對 進修 在職進修都已經說 已經百分之百了那相信所有老師都應該知道怎麼去運用它利用融入式的教學引導這些學生知道這件事情但是如果還有 我剛才講如果還有更進一步的學習"},{"start":457.5,"end":468.028,"text":"如果要針對AI的部分我們資格司也會推動所謂的對深層式AI如何在教學上如何使用那請教一下次長其實你們應該也要去做一個調查統計"},{"start":474.472,"end":501.47,"text":"因为很多的老师他可能自己本身他这个媒体试读或者是AI辨识的能力其实也是很差为什么呢因为我们也可以听到很多人也很容易受诈骗很多人他也很容易意识形态被渗透因为我们从群主当中从大家转发的内容我们都可以很了解这个情形非常的严重"},{"start":502.17,"end":523.975,"text":"那我們到底怎麼辦我們來看一下我們的師培課程像我們的中等師培課程它有一門叫閱讀暨資訊素養教育就兩學分而且是選修那來看小學的師培一樣有閱讀暨資訊素養教育而且也是兩學分也是選修那次長您覺得這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":526.833,"end":553.715,"text":"事实上我们教育部也看到这一点我们部长也要求一定要加强那已经以1130年度我们在教育专业课程里面就有开设媒体素养的教育现在已经有相关的课程已经有47校288个系所开设了915个课程现在已经有15700多个的师资生那市长"},{"start":555.296,"end":579.918,"text":"我其實只是要提醒就是希望教育部可以重視那麼要定期的去做調查去做一個檢視然後做政策的檢討然後要求我們的課綱也好課程內容也好或者是進修內容也好我希望這個部分其實今天委員會排這個主題蠻重要的因為我們正在深受其害"},{"start":580.899,"end":597.798,"text":"所以我是希望说我们的老师要跟得上而且要比学生有更强的试读辨别的能力那我们面对这个TikTok对世界的影响啊它配合手机直视然后呢减短一分钟"},{"start":598.779,"end":626.167,"text":"連我們的YouTube也改了呢他也在學抖音變直視一分鐘呢那我們的IG的reels也是都在跟著TikTok在改變那這個當中我覺得學校很可怕因為學生他只有什麼呢output在學看這些一分鐘重點在要的東西但是他完全沒有input他沒有足夠的能力去輸出他影響我們的學校教育 坐不住"},{"start":626.807,"end":647.799,"text":"沒辦法好好上課因為他只能忍受一分鐘他也沒有辦法處理大量的訊息課本的這些內容手機的這些知識內容他沒有辦法快速的處理所以這個影響到我們未來的教育所以我是希望說這個部分希望能夠有這樣的一個回應讓我們知道而且可能"},{"start":648.839,"end":663.415,"text":"調查的速度要很快那我在這個地方更擔心的是安全的部分因為我們看到太多的影音軟體它為了追求流行它要模仿 它要拍 它要上傳結果呢 危害到兒少的一個安全"},{"start":664.276,"end":682.662,"text":"像爆頭的敲門快寶或者是冷凍後加熱等等所以在這個地方請教一下因為我們的兒少福法第46條之一有提到說任何人不得與網路散佈傳送有害兒童及少年身心健康的內容也提到46條"},{"start":684.002,"end":713.342,"text":"这个是由通讯传播主管机关主管机关来去造几个目的事业主管机关所以我们国内除了儿少权法我们对青少年短影音好像也没什么其他的具体的管制措施所以这个部分我看到公共政策平台要求强化抖音资通管理全民数位媒体的有60几个提案表示名气可用所以我不太晓得说NCC也好"},{"start":714.282,"end":739.12,"text":"速發部 衛福部 教育部像有的國家他們其實是像印度2020年起全面禁止所有人民使用這套還有多項的中國APP那美國猶他州也有家長什麼宵禁 極點使用禁止演算法等等 很多的國家都有那我是在想說我們的國家有沒有在著手這一步"},{"start":742.848,"end":760.501,"text":"跟委員報告在資安的部分的話可能要請那個數位部這邊來跟因為資安的問題其實涉及到所有平台其實都有同樣的問題就資安的部分那以及各自的部分可能涉及到各個委會至少兒少法說是由通訊傳播主管機關召集各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":761.161,"end":780.647,"text":"因為那個依照46條的規定的話目前我們也召集相關機關我們成立了iWIN這樣的一個第三方的機構來幫我們推動在兒少法46條第一項裡面的七大任務其中有一部分委員剛才提到的那畫面如果說假設它是一種仇恨性的或者是一種"},{"start":782.708,"end":801.27,"text":"一種自殺性毀滅性的這些內容的話目前我們安慰已經有召集所有相關的東方利害關係人我們有個歷史框架透過這個歷史框架我們的聯絡剛才在報告裡面也有提到我們跟四大平台包含像YouTube"},{"start":802.231,"end":822.847,"text":"IG啊TikTok這些總共四大平台我們都有一個綠色管道通過我們歷史框架如果假設它的內容是違反我們的歷史框架的那我們會通知我們希望能夠早日感受到啦演算法啦時間控管啦平台責任啦家長協作監督機制啦我們可以希望盡快感受到我們現在是感受不到很緊張"},{"start":827.77,"end":850.783,"text":"那最後一個就是可能這是速發部就是現在有一個困擾就是在遊戲裡面它會有廣告然後你也無法跳過因為它就是遊戲裡面的廣告不是遊戲之外的廣告因為它逼你看完之後這些新三色的東西就可以復活就可以抽獎就可以得到bonus這些"},{"start":851.684,"end":880.118,"text":"那因為遊戲內容復活我看今天的夜報也有就是遊戲軟體分級管理辦法有但是對於這種管不到遊戲裡面的廣告那這個部分就形成法律的一個真空所以我們是希望說遊戲軟體分級管理辦法因為他會管到軟體的內容也會管到軟體的廣告但是管不到遊戲裡面的廣告所以這個部分是不是會納入"},{"start":882.153,"end":903.565,"text":"报告委员游戏软体里面的广告我们相信还是可以用这个儿少权法来做处理只要他有违反儿少的管制的措施的话那边是那边可是你的是管理办法对我们的游戏管理办法母法也是在儿少权法那您会配合修进去纳入吗在我们的办法里面吗"},{"start":904.245,"end":919.115,"text":"對啊OK 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因為我揭發完了以後洪祈昌發聲明罵我說我不實指控新潮流的大佬很厲害"},{"start":147.273,"end":167.639,"text":"造假驗收還發聲明罵我說我不實指控既然有人說我不實指控那我當然要請教治安院治安院證實兩次驗收繳的都是舊的還拿新品證明書要蒙混過關我接下來發現讓我更覺得離譜的事情來請市長看一下這個公文"},{"start":177.996,"end":202.437,"text":"這個是你們的公文裡面講因為12月31號確認東西是舊的還拿假的新品證明書要求廠商1月6號前完成改正現在的問題是12月31號發文出去要求廠商1月6號前完成改正你知不知道廠商有可能在1月6號前完成改正嗎警司長"},{"start":210.066,"end":229.531,"text":"我個人真的不知道他們能不能夠完成改正你覺得治安院知不知道訴發部知不知道我認為訴發部應該不知道我今天質詢的重點就是要跟次長報告訴發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道"},{"start":230.694,"end":254.551,"text":"我再說一次速發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道不可能在1月6號完成改正市長你現在露出了困惑的表情說我怎麼敢這麼斬釘截鐵的說速發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道請看下一張一樣國家自通安全研究院在12月31號同一天喔"},{"start":256.61,"end":285.584,"text":"上一個函是說1月6號要完成改正嘛同一天發函給蘇發布發函給蘇發布啊說什麼說啊我們要辦經費的保留因為上一個年度的經費沒有用完要繼續挪到下一個年度要辦保留嘛在保留函裡面就已經講了說要到3月31號東西才交得出來"},{"start":288.467,"end":311.635,"text":"主下角這個是公文公文上面寫得很清楚要3月31號東西才交得出來代表什麼書發布的人早就知道1月6號前是不可能改正完成的資通安全研究院的人也知道不可能1月6號改正完成最快也要3月31號"},{"start":313.291,"end":326.634,"text":"因為沒有賀嘛他要3月31號東西才交得出來嘛所以我說速發布的人3月31早就知道3月31號東西才交得出來理由是在公文裡面白紙黑字就已經這樣寫了膽大妄為膽大妄為從頭到尾上下交鄉賊明明知道不可能"},{"start":342.113,"end":371.422,"text":"在那個時間完成還在裝忙啊裝忙啊設假的daylight你要補正完成喔早就知道他絕對沒辦法補正完成但沒有關係我們提供很貼心的服務什麼貼心的服務我早就知道你沒有辦法補正完成了我早就知道這個廠商在胡搞瞎搞了但是啊"},{"start":372.546,"end":398.601,"text":"國家資通安全研究院還很貼心的趕快跟他申請跟速發部說經費要保留市長你現在聽懂了嗎是你聽懂了嗎好我現在的問題來了上一次部長跟我說該怎麼辦法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦"},{"start":400.404,"end":429.213,"text":"法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦結果你們回給我喊的內容我現在看到的是第一個沒有懲處啊為什麼不懲處因為現在廠商在外面放話講得很大聲啊我們從頭到尾這樣子搞國家資通安全研究院的人都知道啊他們從頭到尾都知道我們要這樣搞啊都喬好了啦大家配合演一場戲啊"},{"start":431.121,"end":457.342,"text":"大家配合演一場戲啊結果沒有想到會被揭發這樣要怎麼懲處大家都講好了啊第二個也沒有解約第三個也沒有停權第四個也沒有移眾法辦我們的訴發部到底怎麼了我們的訴發部到底怎麼了"},{"start":459.653,"end":487.453,"text":"面對這個違法的事情只差沒有跪下去而已啊只差沒有跪下去而已啊結果我們的部長在國會殿堂給我的承諾說依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦到目前為止我們有看到啊跟委員報告我們內部確實已經在進行調查那也在進行這個簽辦的程序當中還要多久"},{"start":489.955,"end":517.442,"text":"還要多久違法事證如此明確在國會殿堂被尋的時候都承認了沒關係還要多久我繼續等下去我們應該在12月初的時候12月初12月初結果會出來好第二個主席張愛玲我尊重時間請以書面回覆我為什麼"},{"start":518.732,"end":539.685,"text":"明明就知道沒有東西了明明就知道1月6號不可能完成補正了還上下交鄉賊啊裝說我們叫他1月6號以前完成改正啊在同一天就知道他不可能完成改正還跟數八部發公函一樣保留款"},{"start":544.187,"end":550.34,"text":"請你們書面回覆我 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200接近到300多的人然後我們有給一個5年的計畫希望說海巡的人員可以越來越多可是我們看到"},{"start":73.838,"end":88.73,"text":"現在我們的從108年到114年的時候其實我們的預算緣額應該要增加1000多個人可是現在不僅沒有增加還一路下滑缺額非常的多從108年缺79個到現在已經缺了1391個人那更讓本席覺得納悶的點就是說現在114年的實際緣額是11504人比108年我們預算要給"},{"start":103.641,"end":126.23,"text":"你們的員額11726人還少所以意思就是說這五年的計畫不僅失敗而且還倒退那我想要請教主委就是說我們人民給了人民跟國家給了政府給了你們海委會預算也給了職缺可是為什麼人還是補不起是不是我們內部的一些管理文化還是執勤壓力還是流財機制出了大問題"},{"start":127.33,"end":153.029,"text":"那是不是請主委解釋一下好 謝謝委員委員長期關心這個題目叮嚀我很多次是那到委員的辦公室也都這樣頭卡卡的頂著是感謝委員啦啊 委員報告就是說這個統計數字表面看起來會讓委員有這個印象好像我們越來越嚴重但是事實上這個數字是隨著我們源而不斷的擴編然後來的一個動態我知道 可是主委我剛好特別給你報告啊所以今年是最好的狀況"},{"start":153.709,"end":171.944,"text":"今年最好今年的元額比108年的預算還少我們今年是限職人員最多的一年最多是多少我們限職元額是一萬一千五百零四比去年還少比去年少了一百五十二個人"},{"start":172.885,"end":184.375,"text":"跟委員報告我們的預算原額不是我說實際原額 實際原額預算原額是每年都在增加我說實際原額實際原額是有在減少當中嗎我們的數字是11948對 這個數字比較精確是11948 不是1150幾好"},{"start":189.779,"end":206.162,"text":"那到年底到年底我们的缺额会降到792人然后国防部因为会给我们400个义务役现在因为有义务役了他每一年会给我们400的义务役那他是逐步的拨布"},{"start":207.082,"end":227.775,"text":"所以撥補到位主委就是時間的關係所以要拜託你趕快把人補給還有委員剛剛講的那幾個要項我們都會努力去做因為這邊本席有接到從這個我們基層海巡的人員的一個請託他說我們海巡暗巡隊友的這個裝的換裝俗稱2.5代的克拉克手槍他認為這個槍林"},{"start":232.594,"end":247.294,"text":"超過20年了不知道是不是從別的單位所替換我轉述他的話還是新採購的如果是新採購他認為水很深那這個我們基層的人員他們的一個心聲所以我要想請教的就是說其實我們"},{"start":247.854,"end":274.892,"text":"後來不問不知道一問才嚇一跳才知道說我們基層人員很多的時候他們所使用現場的一個手槍的部分很多是這個槍齡已經超過36年這是超過40年的非常嚴重那當然我想要請主委這邊趕快來協助就是說你們現在的處理方式是什麼就是海巡很多相關的執勤人員來跟我反映說他們手上拿的這個手槍這個槍齡超過40年"},{"start":278.187,"end":306.757,"text":"謝謝委員支持 我們有錢了 任性預算那你如何去更換 全面太舊換新其實我有收到你們給我的資料我請署長來說明細節好不好拜託 簡單回覆主席還有委員好那我們在115到1146我們變了1.8億那我們這次換的是把所有的手槍跟步槍所有的手槍是如何來更換全部汰換我沒有全部汰換喔我收到的資料沒有全部汰換我們是分兩年啦"},{"start":307.017,"end":335.035,"text":"因為因為這一個因為我們我們這一個槍子是國造的所以我組長我跟你請教我們問的是說那你們現在到底是三四十年的手槍會汰換還是全部的手槍全部汰換全部手槍都汰換連二十年以上都汰換嗎全部汰換好確定因為我這邊收到的資料是說你們大概是汰換四千多支的槍支可是只針對使用期限逾三十六年以上的才來汰換所以這我想是這是基層人員"},{"start":335.655,"end":360.257,"text":"他不能接受的一個部分因為我拿到你們的資料因為當時你們接受這批手槍是從國安局來的那這批手槍已經二十幾年了所以他才會認為基層的執行人才會認為說為什麼換的手槍還是二十幾年以上的結果你們現在要換的是超過三十六年以上的才有汰換不是全數汰換所以這邊你們其實署長你們還是要好好去檢討到底是否全數汰換好嗎"},{"start":361.243,"end":387.726,"text":"跟委員報告我們是全部汰換但是要分兩年交啦就中間會有一年是重疊新舊會有重疊所以全部汰換好那會後再把資料給我因為我收到資料只有汰換36年以上的手槍那20幾年的手槍到底有沒有汰換如果我不在這次質詢的時候請教吳表這些手槍還要再等多久才能汰換所以拜託署長這邊幫忙好不好好那最後一個問題我要想要請教說說"},{"start":388.707,"end":405.632,"text":"這也是預算中心來請教的就是現在我們海委會海巡這邊使用了大量的採購了大量的無人機可是從過去從112年以來其實無人機的執行的這個執行率的效果非常的差我們從112年編了5000萬113年編了1億200萬114年編了1億5000萬可是執行率都只有不到10%"},{"start":415.816,"end":444.875,"text":"那我知道最近的特別預算我們還編了40億來採購無人機等等的這些做法那我想要請教編了這麼多的預算而且之前我也問過主委我們最貴的一台建載機還高達9000多萬那請問你們這麼多龐大的預算從過去以來一直都執行不利那請教主委你們有沒有一個方法把從112年的預算沒有執行好的未來要如何來去做跟委員報告就是說我們已經準備要上網"},{"start":447.117,"end":467.278,"text":"已经上网你们到底是要从112年的不到10%公文报告海巡是整个政府机关最早用无人机可是质询率不到10%所以他采购无人机然后使用的经验是在最前端因此有一些尝试错误的部分"},{"start":467.779,"end":486.657,"text":"但是第二波的这一波的采购我们呢就野心比较大所以我们要求客制化那来标的国内的业者呢我们也希望国产化嘛他就说好我做得到结果最后那个客制化的要求超过他的能力是出了这个问题"},{"start":487.717,"end":514.768,"text":"因為已經三年都沒有辦法達成那現在我們又重新上網那我們希望這一次因為到現在的時候我們國內其實都已經蠻成熟了已經有比較成熟的這個能力跟商品了所以我們這一次應該就可以圓滿的來完成採購好那我最後再給主席再給我30秒時間那今年準備要使用特別預算3億多來採購無人機目前的進度到如何"},{"start":516.336,"end":523.969,"text":"我們目前是第一階段在上網徵求商情了有沒有機會達成任務 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諸位如果你去浮潛的時候遇到海龜"},{"start":61.172,"end":64.353,"text":"你會誰會先退人一定要先退我們會要求人一定要先退而且絕對不能觸摸所以理論上現在浮潛的人"},{"start":81.841,"end":101.178,"text":"理論上現在浮潛的人去遇到海龜人一定會先退因為現在人都知道要是我碰到海龜不管是海龜碰到我還是我碰到他只要碰到就30萬所以這就是捷寶法很清楚的規定了之後人會做出決定好那主委我想問那如果浮潛的人遇到船"},{"start":102.579,"end":110.387,"text":"誰會先退跟委員報告非常感謝委員關心誰會先退啊主委你要先回答我啊你覺得誰會先退在什麼狀況下會退最困難的是你有沒有那個時間去迴避的問題那就表示他很靠近囉那我為什麼不能規定他到一定的距離的時候船其實應該要先退或者人如果有辦法那麼遠看到船人也應該先退有時候船也不一定來得及看得到"},{"start":128.163,"end":148.722,"text":"所以跟委员报告那人要不要有一个标志委员很关心也都找我们去开会对那跟委员报告一个好消息我们现在呢已经决定了第一个除了我们有指引以外我们现在也决定了每一年我们会至少有三个月在那个海域的游戏活动的热计的这三个月呢"},{"start":149.246,"end":171.83,"text":"我們會出錢然後呢會補助民間的團體譬如說漁會是他們替我們戒護勸導所以等於是和漁會一起合作來守護來運用整體海洋的資源把漁會一起納入這個範疇之中是委員很關心我們也都有照著做那目前有這樣的一個制度有被建立起來"},{"start":172.39,"end":187.724,"text":"那我们海事处处长也都开过很多的会本来我们就说我们还会跳出来赶快协调整合但是观光署说我们先来整合看看最后还是我们还会有出来整合大家以后有了这样的一个决定那钱我们出"},{"start":188.264,"end":207.558,"text":"雖然我們不是目的事業主管機關但是錢我們出沒關係那我們就補助以後讓民力一起就在這個周邊的海域等於是戒護安全勸導來避免就是讓漁會也不只是它自己的漁產業之外它變成是它也成為觀光的一部分所以"},{"start":207.938,"end":213.121,"text":"漁業和觀光就不會比較不會有那麼大的衝突你的設計出發點是這樣嗎好沒關係主委我很高興聽到你至少有想辦法要解決這個問題不過這樣看起來其實你看這就是我今天要質詢的部分嘛我們是遇到一個單一的個案以後我們就想出一套解決的方式甚至又設立了新的行政命令這樣的規則好"},{"start":231.531,"end":236.194,"text":"我們現在對海洋的運用我剛剛在說的所有運用海洋資源的人和設備其實因為沒有一個統籌規範的方式所以每次都是發生案件我們就去處理發生案件就訂一個行政規則目前的狀態就是這樣所以在貴會海委會自己這邊出的海洋白皮書裡面其實你們也有提到啊我國海上交通安全法制"},{"start":256.107,"end":263.151,"text":"有待完善也就是說路上大家都很習慣我們要有交通安全規則那海上呢是不是也應該要有呢你看我們陸地和海洋的法規體系從基本法設備管理號誌管理行業管理執法依據通通都一樣都有法可是在行為管理的部分陸地很清楚海洋是沒有的嘛"},{"start":279.699,"end":291.927,"text":"那這個會衍生什麼呢除了剛剛是我們在使用的人這是正常使用的人彼此有衝突的時候怎麼來處理之外其實我就請海巡署來說海巡署這個我們其實大家在講這個中國的這個灰色衝突的部分那其實我們剛剛主委報告的時候也特別講到了紅太58號紅太58號在被發現是惡意割斷電纜之前其實他的行為是什麼狀態"},{"start":307.077,"end":334.547,"text":"他一定是圍牆滯留嘛那我想請問現在我國的法規裡面對於我發現他的圍牆滯留是有罰則的嗎我們現在草案送在大院就是海濫棄法海濫棄法就有非常有效而強力管制的措施如果我們認為你在海上是一個不當的令人感覺到對於航岸也好"},{"start":335.049,"end":349.577,"text":"或者是在這個海域的安全的部分有威脅性那我們就可以要求你要移動到特定的地方或者我們就希望你離開這就是我們要涉海嵐七法吧如果不聽我們就有罰則"},{"start":353.26,"end":370.755,"text":"所以這一樣 又再是 對不起 諸位我知道我們每一個問題我們都非常認真的在解決其實我剛剛的PPT我們不然跳第一頁好了其實第一頁我對於海委會守護海洋不遺餘力我覺得你們做了非常多事情而且做了很努力只是因為質詢的時間有就這麼短所以我一定要直接進入我的問題我今天的問題是你看我們的問題有這麼多那每一個問題出來我們都做了一個處置"},{"start":380.323,"end":401.077,"text":"甚至是設立了法律也好行政命令也好做法規的處理但對於通則的部分其實並沒有達到這樣的狀態啊比如說剛剛我們是因為有發生了像紅太七號同太五十八號這樣子的問題所以我們來做海底七法的建制好可是那我如果問如果是觀光的香蕉船"},{"start":402.578,"end":423.026,"text":"香蕉船如果是在好像蛇行那他跟浮潛的人那這樣怎麼辦我們昨天也才剛開完一個由政委協調整合的會議那事實上波特船或者是無極的小船他們的問題海委會是多年前就一次又一次的開會然後我們甚至我們有委員會嘛海委會有委員會就像陸委會有委員會嘛"},{"start":425.467,"end":442.948,"text":"那我们会找跨部会一起来开会那我就任以后的两次的委员会都有非常非常具体的裁示那跟着这个裁示下去做的时候呢交通部的航管部门也已经都已经有草案出来但是在这一次海揽七法里面因为我们主要是"},{"start":443.67,"end":463.179,"text":"专属是在处理海揽的问题所以这部分还没有进来可是下一波的船舶法的修法会进来那我们昨天也才开了一个跨部会的一个政委所主持的协调会议那我相信政委出来了比我管碧玲出来还要有力量了所以我希望会快一点"},{"start":464.059,"end":481.61,"text":"主委在這裡就是讓您回答包括您對我現在在講的一個通則海上交通安全通則的部分從白皮書從您現在備詢的態度其實都是海巡署海委會都是表示支持而且盡力在做那我也希望能夠跨部會的協調把海上的這一步行為規範可以讓它建制完成其實對海巡的弟兄我覺得執法也會容易許多對台灣的海洋資源運用也會安全許多"},{"start":492.737,"end":521.657,"text":"這是我今天這樣所以期待如果您可以的話是不是把這個相關的這個期程就是相關的草案也好還有這個建制期程麻煩送一份資料到辦公室專法的部分我們是主張立專法就是海上交通安全法但是呢主管部會認為說目前分散在不同的法律這個法效也夠那我們就尊重他們那就把這種分權式的立法也把它做到最好那我們就加強執法"},{"start":522.879,"end":527.932,"text":"最主要是草案送到大院來希望大院能夠支持好 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信任委員請我想要請工部長還有葉主委謝謝 葉主委"},{"start":23.834,"end":47.307,"text":"我先就教你們 你們兩個昨天很硬對不對在那個政大金融演訓院你們說怎樣 沒有台灣病是不是經濟學人 你們剛經濟學人嘛 對不對你們兩個說沒有台灣病啊 是不是我是說台灣的經濟發展不錯 他應該是一個模範生"},{"start":49.411,"end":75.689,"text":"台灣的經濟沒有生病所以你否認你延遲批判經濟學人指稱我們有台灣Disease對不對 沒有這個東西台灣Disease沒有台灣沒有病沒有病那他提到的是我們的匯率長期的被就是低估他認為我們應該要升值嗎 你覺得"},{"start":80.475,"end":91.247,"text":"他的意思好像是這樣子但是我不曉得他真正的意思他的意思是這樣所以你認為台灣的產業現在還是以出口為導向"},{"start":93.53,"end":119.669,"text":"還是我們應該要發展內需型的產業以台灣的市場有沒有辦法發展內需型的產業出口為導向是對的所以未來台灣還是要走出口為導向的這樣子一個國際市場為主沒有錯啊國際市場為主對不對所以你認為台幣合理的匯率區間是什麼"},{"start":120.851,"end":132.4,"text":"我沒有辦法認定 這個是市場來決定的你現在是經濟部長啊國防組委站在你旁邊 你們兩個怎麼那麼硬你們現在就講啊台灣以出口為導向合理的匯率區間是什麼我們沒有操縱匯率嘛但是你以經濟部長的身份而言你要講啊"},{"start":149.109,"end":162.106,"text":"匯率不好啦 因為央行的組織 我不好在這邊沒有 這跟他沒有關係你講你的 他講他的你講的他也不一定會照做啊 是不是"},{"start":163.167,"end":179.043,"text":"你為什麼不講因為匯率來講的話事實上從過去到現在台灣的匯率說實在話相對於其他國家你現在是經濟部長喔你知道嗎你不是國發會主委喔等一下國發會主委要講他的喔你經濟部長要講經濟部長的喔"},{"start":182.436,"end":202.613,"text":"對我是說以匯率來講的話台灣相對於其他國家相對是比較穩定的那其他國家事實上有上上下下的確是這樣但是也沒有因為其他國家上上下下影響到說台灣在國際間這個出口事實上表現很好的這個情形所以"},{"start":203.524,"end":226.546,"text":"事實上顯然匯率它不是單一因素可以主導這個出口的好壞就好像我們今天是出口好是因為AI這個情形但是對於傳產而言匯率事實上關係不對你說的是AI嘛半導體他們不會受到就是說第一個啦他們公司大啦他們甚至於海外的避險多啦那"},{"start":227.006,"end":255.362,"text":"但是對於傳產中小企業而言匯率對於他們來講就非常的重要所以這一直是傳產以及我們中小企業長期以來對於我們匯率這是經濟部長要去對央行提出的要求嘛 對不對所以我在央行理監事會我是希望我一直要求就是說要維持匯率的穩定因為你波動太大的話它報價都沒有辦法報"},{"start":257.051,"end":280.903,"text":"一下子漲太多一下跌下來那這樣的話報價沒有辦法報這個生意也沒有辦法造尤其是以中小為企業以製造業為主的話這樣是不好那七大工業國他們也說就是說基本上政府是不應該干預匯率的但是如果因為匯率波動太大的情況之下這是排除的這是可以介入的"},{"start":282.253,"end":297.955,"text":"可以介入我也表達我也表達好那我們問一下葉主委啊葉主委你在你有參加央行理事會嗎我沒有你沒有是不是所以你對匯率你昨天不是說了嗎台灣沒有沒有那個沒有經濟學所說的那個"},{"start":299.417,"end":328.364,"text":"因为其实经济学人有一个很大的一个他可能没有考虑到就是说其实我们的出口的那个结构在三四十年前跟现在的出口结构其实完全不一样那你假如说拿三四十年前的那个论点要适用到现在其实有一点点不是那么合适啦我的感觉是不是那么合适那现在我们的整个出口的那一个那个品项啊产品啊其实是比较属于特殊性比较高的就是说其他国家生产不出来的"},{"start":328.854,"end":347.606,"text":"那傳產裡面也有特殊性高的這個部分嗎我是說你不能夠以半導體來講那傳產中小企業它並沒有所謂的特殊性的問題尤其是我們目前的這個機械以及就是我們現在的這些傳產的這個裡面"},{"start":350.288,"end":369.014,"text":"怎麼樣子紡織業而言你怎麼樣子有就是說就是除了匯率以外還有其他的替代性因為跟委員報告我們台灣在三四年前其實大部分集中在傳產那經由這三四年之後的話我們其實半導體相對的比重比傳產多一些"},{"start":369.474,"end":386.068,"text":"那即使是在传产的话也有一些产业其实它有在经过一些产业升级比如说像纺织纺织的话它有一些就开始去用一些环保的素材像以前比如说像在FIFA的时候的话他们那些运动服其实都是我们做的"},{"start":386.428,"end":401.131,"text":"所以其實類似這樣一個獨特性的產品其實不會因為匯率的差異性而會影響到它的出口同時很多跨國的企業其實它本身都有在做避險所以另外一個就是說在結構上面來講的話你講的會不會是大型"},{"start":402.216,"end":426.534,"text":"第一個就是我們的外匯市場裡面的結構裡面的Prayer其實成分都已經跟三四十年不一樣了也就是說廠商拿到錢不見得直接馬上換成台幣他有可能存在國外的戶頭或者是說他直接去買美債去做避險所以你可以看到說最近這幾年那個台幣通常持穩在一部分的一個區間有一部分原因是因為這樣子"},{"start":427.395,"end":449.906,"text":"那你再去看我们那个整个外汇市场的那个player的话其实你去看真的是从贸易方面去去去为主进入到那个汇率市场的话其实比率相当的比较少一些大部分都是国际的资金的流动所以那个部分其实对于我们的汇率的影响是比较大一点但假如说"},{"start":451.161,"end":476.9,"text":"经济学人认为是我们出口然后是因为汇率然后导致出口这个连结关系相对的比较没那么明显我的意思这样子你是认为说汇率所导致的应该不是因为说我们的出口会成长你认为不是因为汇率的关系所以是因为我们产品的这个关系尤其是像AI这一块因为它其实别人没有办法生产那就只有我能提供的话那你汇率高低对我来讲没有"},{"start":476.94,"end":503.337,"text":"那我对啊你都还是回到半导体啊你们两个都还是在半导体啊你们还是要关注传产但那个传产这个部分其实有啦因为有一些传产在最近其实都已经在做一些AI的一些转型那我再来这也是你们两个的议题啊就是说今年六月的时候我们所谓的就是要培育AI的人才就是在国内的大学或硕士毕业生是一加二嘛"},{"start":503.817,"end":526.626,"text":"那東南亞的那個外籍生是2加4嗎那這個部分是不是你們還會繼續做2加4那個部分我們會跟教育部合作變成2加22加2新型障礙者專班還會持續做就是橋外生的部分是2加2"},{"start":528.663,"end":541.47,"text":"對 僑外生來 2加2沒有錯對 外籍生嘛然後東南亞的外籍生是2加2是不是對 一樣是2加2然後那個1加2的方案的話就不做了是不是1加2是我們國內的對 國內的部分也會持續推動"},{"start":545.812,"end":559.944,"text":"所以都會持續推動嗎所以未來這個就是我們的一家沒有因為換部長所以怎樣那個國發會就人在培訓還是會持續只是說資源稍微做一個整合就是說"},{"start":561.566,"end":579.78,"text":"原來是2加4好像經營部要自己做那現在我們就是2加4經營部要自己做我們現在變成2加2事實上跟教育部事實上是合作那是有什麼樣的改變你能不能說明一下部長2加2就是說"},{"start":582.224,"end":609.519,"text":"這個學生在國外他念了兩年書以後到台灣來再念兩年書那我們給他一些獎學金然後給生活費但是他要在我們台灣工作兩年那一加二呢會做什麼改變嗎一加二是台灣的學生畢業以後受訓一年那一樣是會留在那個單位兩年這樣子"},{"start":610.29,"end":622.85,"text":"就是那那個企業要先給他錢嗎當初好像是說企業先給他錢現在呢是我們政府會付這一個部分我們政府先給他錢然後企業後付是不是對對對"},{"start":624.696,"end":646.232,"text":"是不是 所以這個部分也會維持好 謝謝那我想要請問這是剛才好多位委員也有提到的就是我們現在就是速發部所講的我們的這個AI人才面臨的就是數量不足跟需求不符就是"},{"start":647.092,"end":673.272,"text":"現在他們要的就是馬上可以上手的這個AI人才但是我們目前到底我們計畫在推動多久以後才能給予這樣子產業所需求的人才其實我也有去看過我們產發署以及技術師他們所導入的就是經濟部所導入的AI的那個就是供應的那個生產鏈AI導入的生產鏈"},{"start":674.033,"end":696.042,"text":"但是我發現他非常高的強度仰賴就是說你要去一直給予這個AI的這個電腦要在資料庫Beta DES裡面一直要給予他們不同產業別的數據當然汽車零組件的有汽車零組件的數據那工具機的有工具機的"},{"start":698.123,"end":716.921,"text":"紡織業有紡織業的數據那這一種數據的就是培養需要一段期間那你們到底什麼時候我們的資料庫才能夠建就是說整建完畢然後整個可以協助企業因為現在企業人才已經進到這裡了"},{"start":718.342,"end":738.608,"text":"可是我們其實需要的是一個怎麼樣子把這個Database可以建立然後對於這個中小企業你真的能夠給予協助還有傳產能夠給予協助那這個人才以及這個資料庫才有辦法回到企業這個東西需要多久"},{"start":739.642,"end":754.691,"text":"包委員因為不同的企業或不同的產業事實上它對AI的需求有些不太一樣有些企業它事實上它AI本身AI程度已經很高了所以我們培訓它或者是給它協助的就會比較中高階的"},{"start":755.451,"end":778.546,"text":"但是有一些企业基本上还没有导入AI那我们给他就是一些初级的那他们的人员授训也是比较初阶的那这个部分等到满足如果有下一步的需要的时候他要进阶到中阶或高阶那我们会给他额外再加码再做训练是一步一脚印的这样的情况那所以我就说了你们现在这个iPad到底"},{"start":779.656,"end":805.927,"text":"有什麼作用你們發揮的作用如何IPS基本上是給數位發展部來就是說給一個什麼專業的人才認證但是到了這些專業人才認證到了跨產業的這個領域裡面的時候到底有沒有發揮作用是IPS基本上大概是一個訓考用一個三者合一的一個平台"},{"start":807.448,"end":834.007,"text":"除了我们经济部之外教育部也有参加劳动部也有参加就是说透过训练完以后一个认证机制这个认证机制怎么样跟产业界做结合甚至于这个班要开出来的时候我们都会去问这个产业工协会他们觉得有需要这样的这些AI的规划师设计师以后我们来开这个班然后说过减定的机制通过以后那他们也愿意训练如果在职的甚至于他还给奖励金"},{"start":834.727,"end":846.817,"text":"而且甚至可以加加薪就是鼓勵他們員工來受這樣的一個訓練所以它就是一個訓考用結合起來的一個機制我最後還有一個問題"},{"start":848.666,"end":869.458,"text":"我覺得就是這個是我們看到這是英國獨立媒體他所發布的全球的AI國力的排行裡面我想請問為什麼我們又你看新加坡是第三名為什麼我們又是21名工部長"},{"start":875.181,"end":890.028,"text":"我們的半導體我們的出口比新加坡強這麼多為什麼我們的AI排名新加坡是第三名我們竟然是21名因為我們是生產AI的server還有半導體是非常強"},{"start":891.311,"end":908.745,"text":"但是這個算力的建造還有這個應用我們就是要加強現在我們AI新時代就是在做這樣的事情不是是你為什麼我們在這個軟體的應用上面會這麼差就是希望經濟部國發會還有國科會等等"},{"start":912.728,"end":933.266,"text":"你們共同來協助產業導入嘛不能說我們只有半導體強他們需要政府的協助低我們就給予他們協助低但是其實我們忽略了AI未來要應用AI不會泡沫化最重要的原因是在應用嘛 是不是"},{"start":935.198,"end":954.419,"text":"是在應用嘛 那你的應用一定要導入所有的傳產所有的機械業所有的中小微企業裡面啊 是不是對 現在就是在做這樣的事情所以我希望政府能夠在不同的產業別都能夠導入"},{"start":956.141,"end":974.208,"text":"不要讓我們的AI 我們竟然是半導體為主而且我們AI的生產是全世界冠軍那甚至現在連川普總統都認為我們就是囊括了所有的這個晶片的產量"},{"start":974.648,"end":1002.284,"text":"那既然我們有這麼強的時候我們竟然沒有辦法讓我們的傳產我們的中小微企業都能夠享受到我們在AI發展的這個優勢那這個紅利現在沒有外溢到我們中小企業沒有外溢到我們的傳產裡面是不是所以我們現在就是要努力什麼時候可以你預計啊 目標啊什麼時候超越新加坡"},{"start":1005.643,"end":1033.264,"text":"主席 什麼時候我們只能說我們加油 我們努力這個會錄音喔 什麼時候超越新加坡你要有信心啊 葉主委有信心你講葉主委你講 你們倆昨天很硬啊 快點講這個真的需要努力啦什麼時候超越新加坡還是努力什麼時候啊 目標盡量縮短"},{"start":1034.427,"end":1060.521,"text":"縮短什麼時候 一年一年好不好一年有沒有辦法很難啊 加油請我們的這個官員不要在上面嬉笑好 兩年可以嗎兩年可以嗎 超越新加坡可不可以朝這個方向趕快去努力好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913186adb2f8f4a86d13be06babd869ba0afa443352b7318b89d60c73881cc9b1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:52:00 - 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藏弊管轄昨天我們委員會本席提案那委員會通過了一個提案譴責"},{"start":42.17,"end":59.33,"text":"中國這一種蠻橫的野蠻的行為那也聲援這一些被中國無理打壓的人那就中國做這個事情我們外交部對國際的發聲以及像我們昨天外交國防委員會通過這個決議外交部有什麼態度"},{"start":61.682,"end":76.137,"text":"我們外交部當然就因為中共是沒有管轄權而且他現在講的所謂透過這個國際刑警組織啊或所謂這些其實大家一定都了解有些事是他不是他一廂情願可以做的"},{"start":76.778,"end":92.476,"text":"可是作為外交部我們一定要了解就是說所有涉及到的國際條約或是跟中國簽的這些包括發表的聲明還有他過去有沒有這樣的案例以及我們去交涉的時候因為這裡面涉及到"},{"start":93.157,"end":119.499,"text":"有一些國家可能不是這麼法治民主那種情形之下怎麼處理所以我們外管也啟動跟當地國家的交涉希望預防這個是我待會要問的我現在指的是說我們這事情政府有個態度嘛那個基本態度是中國管對台灣沒有死法管轄權你這種政治動作連interpol的審查都不會過那我們應該向國際發聲表達我們外交部不容許任何一個個人喔不管這個個人是誰"},{"start":121.32,"end":143.356,"text":"都不能用這種政治的理由來進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓這是我們外交部的太空管的中共連外太空他也都要管的管到地心他也要管的他的境外管轄無所不在嘛這個說實在真的是讓世界有時候覺得說看笑話啦我是不好這樣講但是委員講的我也覺得很有道理所以昨天我們當然我是比較遺憾"},{"start":145.738,"end":161.365,"text":"國會應該是一個保護民主的地方那面對我們的國人不管是國軍或者是國會議員面對這種無理蠻橫的打壓照理說國會應該要通過譴責案應該要聲援那我們的國會現狀沒有通過那還好我們外交國防委員會有通過"},{"start":162.065,"end":187.865,"text":"我希望外交部可以把這個我們通過的決議善加運用不管是對國際發聲或者讓我們的國際友盟知道我們國會還是有態度的至少在委員會有態度那另外剛才你提到的就是說因為各國的狀況不一樣有的國家獨裁有的國家民主有的國家遵守國際法有的國家不遵守所以的旅行安全是一個相當複雜的行為所以中國要透過"},{"start":188.665,"end":203.36,"text":"國際行行組織發布的黃色或紅色的相關的通告當然國際行行組織有他的決策過程那因為我們不是會員國我們其實沒有把握還是要透過有盟國家那對於相關國家的旅行什麼目前外交部"},{"start":205.382,"end":226.138,"text":"會採取默契作為或正面表列或負面表列因為我擔心的其實不是沈伯陽他算知名人士我擔心是那些我們不認識名字的資通電軍國軍弟兄沒有人知道他他如果訊息不清楚到了某一個國家旅遊不見了"},{"start":227.981,"end":250.826,"text":"那真的是叫天不應中國對我們沒有管轄權但是某一些中國的附庸國他不管國際法的他也不文明所以我真的是希望我們外交部可以思考這一種我們一般旅遊安全警示通常是對當地的政治經濟局勢發布不同顏色的警戒但這個很特別這是中國用政治的理由"},{"start":251.866,"end":280.492,"text":"在找台灣人民的麻煩我們一些一貫到的到親到中國旅遊就被抓起來了到現在還沒放回來那中國他在國內這樣搞他在國際上那我以為我到這國旅遊了我搭哪一國的航空他有浮動主權的問題要不要注意我到哪一國過境有沒有需要注意或者我在哪一些國旅遊沒有問題所以我請教部長你們的態度是我們就一個一個溝通默契上處理但默契上處理可能只會幫助到"},{"start":282.013,"end":307.032,"text":"知名人士那要不要通案的正面表列或負面表列我們外交部的態度是什麼陳盧委員講中港澳一定是有風險的嘛中共直接可以控制的到那有一些他周邊國家基於一些他這個他們中共的影響力這一些我們也會提醒那另外就是所謂沒有風險比如說這一次沈伯陽委員到了這個德國"},{"start":308.933,"end":328.266,"text":"外面是說這是比較低度風險我就說沒有風險我開玩笑講我們應該集資讓他各國去跑然後跑完打完卡的都是安全的綠色名單所以我們內部作業當然都會因為我們有111個外館有外館的地方我們就有可以協助的一個不是 我這一題我簡單收尾收尾就是說"},{"start":329.187,"end":344.584,"text":"外交部會不會傾向一個正面表列這些地方沒問題或者一個負面表列這些國家不要去還是我們不會做這兩個工作我是會建議用原則啦我們內部當然是有個案因為這裡面有一些在很微妙的地方"},{"start":345.728,"end":360.589,"text":"那有一些沒有風險我們就講沒有風險那這一題本席要要求外交部跟跨部會如果你沒有所謂的正面或負面的表列對於這些人不管是國軍或者是個人"},{"start":361.63,"end":375.96,"text":"有涉及這樣子的風險的你們要個別通知到位因為我再講一次知名人士也許沒有風險但是對於那些辛苦捍衛國家的國軍其實我很遺憾我們立法院沒有通過那個決議"},{"start":377.819,"end":402.036,"text":"最先三波被發布通緝的是我們國軍弟兄欸那應該要告知他們說哪些地方去沒有問題哪些地方去要小心哪些航空不能搭以及發生問題怎麼尋求協助我們外交部做不做得到如果你們不公開正面負面表列的話那你要掌握這些人然後告知他風險能不能做到這件事情我們來跟國防部會一下意見因為相關人不見得只有國防部"},{"start":402.316,"end":424.353,"text":"對 或者是國安單位 或者是涉及有一些這個能不能盡快做到被中國點名的 我們不要被他恐嚇到但對個別人身的安全 我們身為政府應該要照顧這點我拜託部長 儘速通知相關人那我剛才開玩笑講的就是 沈伯陽現在是一個"},{"start":425.754,"end":446.534,"text":"也不能叫地標啦就是說我們如果極致讓他他出現在西班牙出現在布魯塞爾出現在哪裡那個國家大概他都很安全那我們大概都沒問題他是一個旅行安全指標啦那我接下來要請教另外一個議題我們把我們的目光移到洪都拉斯"},{"start":447.54,"end":476.86,"text":"洪都拉斯在下個禮拜吧一個多禮拜要投票了11月30號他們的總統大選目前主要的候選人當中有兩位呢公開表達他說如果他們當選要跟台灣重新建交那背景當然有他內政的因素啦他要跟執政黨做政治市場區隔也是原因之一另外爭持的因素是來自於經濟因為2023年以來洪都拉斯"},{"start":477.72,"end":491.981,"text":"坦白講見利忘義那到底誰得了利我們也不知道但他們國家的蝦農真的黑黑黑 迷迷茂茂那產生經濟重大衝擊所以對他們來講發現跟中國建交之後答應的沒兌現"},{"start":493.447,"end":509.885,"text":"白蝦出口銳減 倒閉60%而中國的廉價品大量的傾銷造成了洪都拉斯在地的中小型企業垮的垮 倒的倒所以他們其實是面對這個問題事實上中國的一帶一路國家都有類似的症狀"},{"start":511.786,"end":533.204,"text":"我要請教的是宏都阿斯的主要的在野黨已經有這樣的表達意願我第一個請教部長宏國畢竟長期跟我們中華民國是有邦交關係我們在當地的人脈網絡人際關係還在不在在還在嗎訊息的掌握應該還算是"},{"start":534.409,"end":561.712,"text":"還算是可以因為有一定的認識的人脈不管是橋頂啊平常就有可能會互動的嘛對對對所以其實消息管道都還在而這些消息管道是bilateral是雙方的他們也知道在那裡我們也知道在那裡我請教目前外交部這個紅國的這兩位主要的總統候選人有沒有透過相關的人際網絡訊息管道跟我方進行聯繫"},{"start":563.069,"end":587.475,"text":"因為他們兩個都公開講啦不管是NASOLA或是ASPURA他們這兩位領先第一名第二名都有對外講他們如果當選總統要跟台灣恢復邦交嘛那我們也都聽到了至於說其他的有沒有什麼其他的我們就不方便講因為這兩位現在民調蠻高的耶民調是蠻高的不過他們也算是接近啦但是我從美方那邊"},{"start":589.11,"end":612.811,"text":"部分朋友聽到的是 怕他們是連選舉可能都會有被沒收的危險所以現在國際官選團都有到啊對 很注意這次選舉的公平性是他們國家內政 是自由民主國家所關切但是他們如常進行選舉之後兩位主要的 甚至於現在民調名列前茅的候選人公開宣稱要跟台灣恢復邦交 那他"},{"start":613.692,"end":633.541,"text":"公開講我們聽到了那私下有沒有透過特定的管道跟我們聯繫你剛才部長表達不便在這邊談論我尊重但是我覺得外交部要做好因應因為11月30號要到了這個因應包含了什麼樣的狀況發生我們有什麼樣的備案劇本那部長你們應該有準備幾套劇本"},{"start":634.622,"end":651.19,"text":"當然外交部平常做的就是這個事啊就是要準備好我們期待啦好不好那我們尊重紅國人民民主的選擇他們選擇之後我們再來看後續那我接下來請教高市早苗的部分最後一題幾個幾分鐘高市早苗"},{"start":652.17,"end":670.348,"text":"他是在日本其實是最重要的委員會日本國會的預算委員會是日本國會議員最重視的這個委員會NHK實況轉播這個委員會國會議員要提問不像我們這樣急問急答喔是要先把問題提出來內閣交給各"},{"start":673.33,"end":694.085,"text":"各這個內閣的部門的常任事務官擬達之後由內閣首相或者相關的官員審視之後才來這邊回答所以日本的國會議員最重視的其實是就是這個預算委員會那高市早苗在這裡面對的所謂的安全事態的詢問"},{"start":695.606,"end":720.623,"text":"那高市早苗回答的是台灣如果面對中國的武力侵犯包含了可能的這個封鎖等等那最差的狀況有可能會影響他講的是有可能影響到日本的純利事態也是我們講的存亡那接下來他就會根據他們的憲法他的主詞是用日本跟自衛隊跟安倍講不一樣安倍的主詞是美國"},{"start":721.744,"end":739.277,"text":"跟日本他這個主持是日本跟日本自衛隊呢這個有權號發動集體自衛權那這個是他的大概比較完整的論述那這個論述呢坊間討論很多我就不贅述了目前為止日本因為對台灣安全的重視"},{"start":740.834,"end":767.894,"text":"那引起了中國的文攻武嚇加經濟制裁你知道我看到中國現在對日本做的事情我差點以為中國要逼日本承認他是中國的一部分就是我不買你的這個我黃海演習然後怎麼樣子好像要逼日本承認他是中國一部分中國的羅馬布就是這樣你身為我們國家的外交部長對於日本國這件事情我們國家對高市內閣的態度是什麼"},{"start":769.042,"end":788.992,"text":"我想高市早苗首相他自己說到他言所當言那當然他的身份一定是要遵守他們的法律的規定他也講了一些情境之下所以他並沒有要收回那當然至於說有人不高興那怎麼去處理"},{"start":790.573,"end":814.929,"text":"避免身高衝突那這個是另外一件事情那我們台灣對日本的支持這又是另外一個事情我們事實上日本是基於自己的國家的利益尤其是安全他去思考跟對外去說包括不管是政策法令或者是聲明裡面提到台灣有事就是日本有事也就是日美安保有事"},{"start":815.569,"end":841.142,"text":"所以這裡面涉及到一個美國的角色不是日本單方面的行為那中國對台灣一再的霸凌你講的文攻武嚇 經濟脅迫 無所不用其極嘛然後前一陣子用在菲律賓嘛也一樣啊 也是官方課程 什麼都不行現在用在日本嘛 所以問題在中國嘛所以是不是誰有事沒事 是中國在找事啊那他找事就找理由那我們要好好的去管理中國"},{"start":842.142,"end":868.572,"text":"我們跟美日非理念相近國家要好好的管理避免中國擦槍走火我們是當作一個危機預防至於他在很多的行動上我們也要了解實況是如何你對日方政府有沒有什麼樣的代表我國政府因為外交部就是國家的發言人我們是支持高斯坦首相他的政策他的印太政策"},{"start":869.484,"end":872.356,"text":"這個戰略以及他對於這個我們"},{"start":875.302,"end":894.79,"text":"第一島鏈 包括台海 東海 南海他相關的這個立場那至於說中共他想要升高衝突因為今年是他所謂三個八十年嘛他想要動員民族主義那是不是要轉移到內部的焦點或藉此來怎麼樣去擴張那我們就必須要去釐清然後這些我們必須大家台灣 日本 美國周邊的國家要一起好好來manage"},{"start":902.333,"end":917.86,"text":"去管理中共的製造事端造成可能的威脅或是失控的狀況中國對日本家租的不管是黃海軍演現在延長八天對於他的旅遊的禁制令還有現在的水產的禁制令我國態度是什麼"},{"start":918.12,"end":945.997,"text":"我跟委員講他那個演習是平常都在做規模很小可是他透過央視把它誇大他離日韓很遠這其實在黃海在中共的這個岸邊啦但是日本就很清楚嘛因為他們從地圖看可是台灣的媒體就把它擴大就變成這個一再的在操作嘛被運用啦這也是認識作戰啊我們必須要了解事情的實況然後也不要要很"},{"start":948.298,"end":970.385,"text":"關心這個事但不要去過度反應那剛好讓中共可以操弄他的認知作戰那透過這樣的方式啊旅遊跟經濟的部分呢旅遊跟經濟中共齁什麼東西都武器化所以跟中共來往要小心要去風險化甚至現在美中是根本就是所謂的脫鉤了嘛在稀土在這些新興科技上"},{"start":971.505,"end":986.975,"text":"可以赴日旅遊啦 或者台日我覺得日本在這個時候最需要台灣人表示對他的一個支持當年中國莫名其妙糟蹋我們關廟的鳳梨我們現在第一大輸出國就是日本"},{"start":987.995,"end":1014.182,"text":"所以我也是請台灣人我們能夠以行動來表示對於高市早苗首相跟他政策的支持多到日本去觀光旅遊現在呢應該是好季節我最後一句話就是其實當中國莫名其妙選擇228連續假期我印象2019突然間宣布把我們剛開始要出產的鳳梨"},{"start":1016.104,"end":1034.854,"text":"就找一個隨便的理由就不讓他出口了想要傷害我們的農民當時是日本 澳洲讓我們的水果往那邊銷售對所以有自由的鳳梨啦這些都跑出來當時的川普的國務卿也吃鳳梨酥啊等等那後來澳洲"},{"start":1035.799,"end":1056.893,"text":"因為得罪中國 他的葡萄啦 紅酒那台灣 我們也產生同樣態度去買紅酒所以這一次 中國這種蠻恨流氓的行徑我覺得我們身為好朋友 而且人家怎麼對我們人給我們一口 我們贏人一刀啦這是我們台灣人的天性所以我請我們國人啊"},{"start":1058.795,"end":1065.246,"text":"多去日本旅遊 然後多購買日本的產品來表示我們台日的友好"}]}},{"id":"165712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913b686c44626985019c4841f031bc0ad0a8603fab3ff6def27c89ebdc37aa605965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:52:08 - 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我們請管主委請管主委主委好今天本席首先想要針對海廢海洋廢棄物的部分來跟您請教"},{"start":35.949,"end":64.781,"text":"我想在你们的报告中也有特别讲特别提到海废的治理跟海废的处理可能你们觉得做得还不错应该重视吧因为海废的处理它影响我们整个的环境首先我想了解一下我们好像是中央跟地方"},{"start":65.902,"end":81.945,"text":"联合一起处理吗我们补助地方让政府地方来执行你们中央没有吗不是有全责吗没有吗我们的经费下去但是必须是地方政府来协助执行所以没有"},{"start":82.95,"end":111.946,"text":"分海域哪些给地方政府哪些是给中央没有所以中央自己没有海洋废棄物的清理跟海洋污染的应变不一样海洋污染的应变的话我是指海洋废棄物海洋废棄物的清理的话我们最主要就是需要因为它横跨在全国非常广大的海域所以它的执行我们有请地方政府或者是民间的团体来协助对"},{"start":112.587,"end":112.848,"text":"那這樣民間的團體"},{"start":118.504,"end":146.625,"text":"是不是应该主委主委是不是有一些还是是你们我们是应变啦应变属于我们啦应变是你们那我现在请教我这边拿到的了解资料是你三海里以内是不是是地方三海里以外的是不是你们中央海上主要群职是海上那我现在说海底下海底下三海里以内也都还是地方嘛"},{"start":147.868,"end":164.25,"text":"對地方那你們知道地方有些困難嗎譬如說你有經費委託地方是那但是地方政府對於譬如說你15公尺或30公尺以下的這個是誰"},{"start":167.274,"end":183.428,"text":"每一年我们有一个我们有平台所以我们补助下去的时候你可不可以先救我的问题因为我时间也不多啦你现在海底废弃物超过15公尺或30公尺更深的你也是给地方吗"},{"start":185.643,"end":209.56,"text":"我们基本上地方还是第一线来替我们执行好那主委我看你可能完全不了解我们这里要委托下去清除我们委托前海战将系统下去清除也是必须是前海战将系统来协助我们清除那海委会的同仁不可能自己下去清除我的意思是说"},{"start":210.58,"end":234.756,"text":"地方他也是委外嘛他也是委托但有一些可能是我们的一些渔民就是包括叫做什么环保前海战将这些对还有环保舰队对对对前海战将环保舰队就是渔民还有一些潜水业者或热爱潜水的民众那现在主委我要讲一个重点"},{"start":235.703,"end":246.236,"text":"我們發現在深海超過15公尺甚至30公尺以下很多的魚礁有很多的流刺網他整個都這個"},{"start":248.57,"end":270.465,"text":"覆盖在鱼礁上那个部分是最困难的对最困难的地方他也没办法你给的经费他也没办法结果长期这个海底一堆的这些流刺网我们很多长期下来很多的鱼类他们都被这些流刺网刺死了"},{"start":271.617,"end":295.918,"text":"這個情況已經好幾年了我們中央都沒有辦法處理然後地方他們沒有辦法因為你太深了這一塊想辦法跟委員報告這也是為什麼我一直期待我們的海保署要有一個大幅度的體質的改變你體質改變是說你們自己有專業團隊嗎"},{"start":297.259,"end":312.659,"text":"你要培养自己的吗我们一定要赋能一定要强化我们连预算一年的预算整个海保署只有8亿我就请教你你的意思是你们要自己有专业的人员专业的团队吗你回答一下我们正在做主改是不是"},{"start":313.12,"end":330.075,"text":"你是不是朝向这方面基本上海委会自己本身还帮助自己本身组团队下去处理这些事情你现在就觉得钱不够但是我们海底的这种情况已经很多年而且地方跟我们反映"},{"start":330.495,"end":346.668,"text":"她一直反應就是沒有人重視我們現在連海廢地圖都沒有做到全面所以海廢地圖的部分我們要用水下的滑翔液我們先用水下的滑翔液下去做調查每年捐助北美環境教育協會"},{"start":348.61,"end":361.111,"text":"也是就是針對一些這個近海大聯盟等於是你每年花120萬請問那個效益是什麼我請我請副署長說明副署長是不是好來"},{"start":363.888,"end":379.065,"text":"报告委员刚刚讲的那个北美的那个部分是针对YIC的部分那是补助我们去做就是请各个国家对嘛你去请他们提一些好的方案但是已经连续做了很多年这些方案有"},{"start":379.825,"end":403.839,"text":"有了好的方案你们有去用吗有因为这样改善我们台湾的海域相关的情况吗再跟委员说明一下就是因为我们的那些方案都会请这些得奖的人员都会来做分享然后我们会从中启发有一些比较好的一些车你现在讲的话都没有针对我的问题我知道你们办了很多年"},{"start":404.079,"end":420.034,"text":"但是最後主委主委主委您要知道你這個錢花下去它有沒有效益還有我們地方的漁民每年每年反映他們都知道深海那些漁礁都那個流刺網都沒有人去清啊這個問題"},{"start":422.817,"end":451.937,"text":"主委你可不可以跟我保證你未來這一年因為我們馬上也要審預算了你明年度你這一塊你要不要我們海底漁網跟委員報告我們海底漁網清多少噸這個數字是獨立起來的那以今年吧今年來講到目前為止是清了17.85公噸所以非常感謝委員委員以後就給我們督促這個數字有沒有在成長"},{"start":452.797,"end":479.554,"text":"对这个数字是独立起来的数字成长是一个但是我们看着我们的海洋生态还有我们那么多各式各样的鱼类它都因为这个部分它等于是很多鱼就因为这样都被刺死了我们大概顺序上我们顺序上我也期许他们说经费啦你们每年这个经费总经费多少海费的清理每年总经费多少"},{"start":480.39,"end":488.919,"text":"我是不滿意啦一億八全國嘛然後你補助各縣市政府還有你們自己是不是也有"},{"start":490.679,"end":514.769,"text":"還有一個就是我們現在目前有一個海費清除網就是針對剛剛委員講的這樣子的情況如果說比較傷害就是針對比較深一點的我們就會自己下去請專業的人下去清那這個部分呢我主要就是你們可不可以了解有些地方他這個哀哀叫然後你們都不伸出援手這樣不行啊"},{"start":518.953,"end":535.169,"text":"那麻煩新竹縣外海那個我去年好像也有質詢那到今年都沒有人去清15公尺30公尺以下的那還一直都在那主席不好意思最後我再講一題"},{"start":536.758,"end":559.153,"text":"那這一塊我們希望明年能夠看到改善那最後再來一個就是說海域管理法至今懸而未決原因是什麼這個法非常的複雜我們曾經完成過草案然後也送到行政院過但是它涉及的就是說你中央的權限"},{"start":560.154,"end":584.585,"text":"要不要全面把地方的權限收回涉及這個爭議所以到最後我們過去所做的草案的這個路線我們全部就重新盤點那重新盤點以後把各種權限的合理安排做了一個新的架構那跟委員報告我們最新的進度就是這個大綱架構出來了草案出來了"},{"start":585.385,"end":609.133,"text":"那我要求說你大綱架構出來不要直接下去寫條文你從大綱架構就開始做跨部會員商還有做跟民間的溝通那你有沒有期程預計什麼時候出來我們希望明年會有非常具體的成果因為現在我們離岸風電開發模式都是業者先圈海政府被動審查"},{"start":610.353,"end":634.216,"text":"那我们希望我们海域的整个的使用它能够是基于国安还有我们的生态还有各方面整体利益一起来考量所以这个我们的海域管理法我们希望我们希望明年会非常明确能够有这样的一个法出来现在大纲出来了加油加油谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9131f18d7d475cf2ffcc4841f031bc0ad0a8603fab3ff6def2707c68077156111bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:45:21 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經過之後他把軍艦訊號關掉然後改成商船的訊號"},{"start":54.622,"end":83.924,"text":"然後我們這邊都沒有發現是中共的那邊來驅趕之後呢我們這邊才發現然後後來呢過去還協調了幾個小時好幾個小時然後才處理然後媒體當然就有下一個標就是吊旗打個問號然後國人也會擔心那這個主要來問主委的原因是因為當然你會說那個是軍方事情可是我記得最近你們也有提說希望能夠修海染7法嘛那其中有一個是傳播法部分"},{"start":84.332,"end":113.109,"text":"就是說如果有不明的船隻經過它沒有打開訊號的話呢你不是可以驅逐它的就是增加台海這方面的安全的保護那如果出現類似的狀況我剛剛講的那個狀況就是它是軍艦它經過了它其實是有開訊號的但是它開的是商船訊號可是軍方也不知道然後海巡這邊也不知道然後反而是對岸驅逐才發生那類似這個狀況您的了解是為什麼會發生"},{"start":114.096,"end":143.317,"text":"各位委員報告有關於這個報導還有有關於軍艦的監控確實不屬於海巡的業務範圍那這不是推卸責任而是包括我們的雷達我們的監測的體系我們有在我們業務範圍監測的相關相對應的設備裝設備是相對應的裝設備因此在中線是現在大家對於海巡的期待不是這樣啦因為之前海巡"},{"start":144.558,"end":151.945,"text":"還好海軍沒辦法監控軍艦因為那時候大家海軍編了很多預算嘛有增加很多船艦啊什麼的"},{"start":154.068,"end":175.241,"text":"當時執政黨也是民進黨就說海軍現在要轉向第二海軍這種類似這種聲音應該都聽過了所以我們覺得說當然海巡如果是以國家安全的狀況的話軍方海巡只要是海上的大家都應該要協力如果說軍方漏掉的話那他因為把商船的訊號打開了"},{"start":176.499,"end":203.14,"text":"基本上如果海巡能夠補這個洞大家加強聯繫對我們台灣的安全一定是比較有幫助的我們有情報的交流跟交換但這一案就剛講那個就Lost掉了第二個就是因為美國國會啊薛瑞福啊這個消息你應該有看到嘛昨天參議院昨天美國國會有一個叫美中經濟暨安全檢討委員會的副主席叫薛瑞福他也做過"},{"start":204.161,"end":224.297,"text":"就是前美國國防部的印太司令部的助理部長他講他當然是主題是在講說如果共軍要包圍台灣要封鎖的話很快就會完成我們會反應不急那其中就有提到為什麼呢因為他們現在像海軍海警海上民兵"},{"start":225.442,"end":240.366,"text":"實際上都對我們實施大量的灰色戰略然後所以這方面海警海上民兵的轉換是很快的那很快就會讓我們預警時間很慢那我不知道說這個有關於向對岸海警"},{"start":241.007,"end":269.59,"text":"或者是民兵这一块那海巡有因应的策略吗我们在管辖的海域里面我们全面监控只要是进入我们进限制水域的海警跟公务船我们绝对是强制的区域我知道我知道你现在讲的是一个原则嘛你讲的是原则说每一个个案我们都处理没有放过任何一个个案我是觉得因为这也是美国的算是国会的报告"},{"start":270.742,"end":298.202,"text":"應該不會是隨便亂講的那他特別指出來就是有把海警跟民兵特別列出來所以我們對民兵船也有掌握問題是如果以我們現在掌握當然我們願意相信海巡的狀況但我只是覺得提醒就是說如果現在連美國都講得那麼詳細的話那你有沒有針對這方面可能會有些狀況"},{"start":299.273,"end":322.019,"text":"提出一些因應的策略不是說只是說他有監控我們都有監控來了我們就會驅趕我覺得這講得太空了這些狀況我們最重要的我們會做很多的桌推很多的兵推還有跟鄰近國家我們會做很多的聯演甚至於鄰近國家他們的聯演我們也都去觀摩"},{"start":322.959,"end":341.273,"text":"所以台海不是台灣自己的事情大家知道只要是巴士海峽的封鎖或公國海峽等等這些封鎖它影響的是全世界它影響的是90%的日本人 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陽勤發言 邀請主委請管主委"},{"start":27.384,"end":55.652,"text":"兩位也好 各位好我們看到報紙報導10月30號海洋委員會主辦的我們海洋素養創新教學競賽吸引了全國大概有30所學校來展示它探究的成果我也要歡喜的是在特優的部分我們的大到國中優等的部分有我們系統國小"},{"start":56.332,"end":72.332,"text":"這個我等一下要講要謝謝委員大安國中還有佳作是大甲國中你不用謝謝我因為這是我們共同的理念我們希望好好的驅動委員我還是要說大家都不知道委員關心以後台中參與這個計畫的學校"},{"start":75.456,"end":96.418,"text":"站很前面現在已經有13個非常感謝所以我們看到因為我們的理念一致也希望能夠海洋是全民共享的這個概念所以在目前為止我們還是停留在示範學校的校園那你接下來要怎麼做呢"},{"start":97.165,"end":114.161,"text":"委員我就是來多少做多少所以現在最重要的就是說學校要願意參加不是來多少做多少也不是學校要願意老師要願意而是我們自己本身我們的作為是怎麼樣要怎麼宣導要怎麼媒合這非常重要而且我今年培訓了400個種子教師"},{"start":121.488,"end":137.988,"text":"好 就您讲的这个问题我们继续来讨论因为你要鼓励人家来共同参与因为有的人他还没有这个概念而且他不是那么了解所以本下是希望你们要多有趣媒介因为有一个好的成果开始必须去努力我们不但全部免费补助"},{"start":138.889,"end":155.268,"text":"我们还给他教具的费用这个你现在说还是有很多人不知道所以你必须要去宣导去媒介这是本席给你鼓励的但是目前我们有系统性的一个机制你将竞赛跟种子教师的成果"},{"start":157.41,"end":168.877,"text":"那本席也是希望就是說你在未來能夠將這些還沒有參與的學校我們要怎麼樣去宣導 去媒介讓他們有誘因可以來這是第一個"},{"start":172.359,"end":200.386,"text":"那所以未來的這個四年當中你要怎麼樣特別針對於偏鄉偏鄉的學校建立指標跟補強的這個方案因為本期希望的也就是說海洋教育它不是少數的一個示範而是希望一開頭本期所說的是一個全民皆有海教機會而且是海洋是全民共享"},{"start":200.826,"end":223.015,"text":"因為台灣是寺廟華海尤其楊偉遠一定知道就是說這一套教學方法太棒了他不是老師教他是老師帶著學生自己去發現問題 啟發問題你自己去做實驗 你自己去實證這個就是啟發性教學 就是科學教育我們不只訓練李海洋素雅還在訓練未來的科學家"},{"start":223.735,"end":236.901,"text":"我覺得這套教法真的太好了你就是要怎麼樣在下一步他不只是停留在示範學校區而是要擴大怎麼樣的讓人家了解可以廣泛的讓大家全民共享我們更有效的來宣導跟媒合我們都補助每一個老師五萬塊"},{"start":248.686,"end":275.288,"text":"接下來本席要跟您請教的也就是海洋無障礙本席認為這一點非常的重要那你從彌陀漁港的這個全國首座無障礙的入水平台那這樣子的一個情況從地方到學校這已經在做青海的一個體驗而且是全民要達這個海洋全民共享尤其因為本席呢也經常在帶著孩子"},{"start":275.788,"end":303.297,"text":"那身障的朋友告訴了我一句話他說我真的很想飛上天我也很想潛入海裡這個讓我很感動所以我們開始帶著孩子怎麼樣飛上天去坐輕航機等等我們也帶著孩子到青海的這些的活動甚至我們帶他去抓個蛤蜊他摸到水"},{"start":304.297,"end":321.508,"text":"踏到這個海灘的時候那一種感動跟觸動跟它的一個體驗讓我非常的希望能夠再擴大去做所以也就是海洋無障礙的部分台中有補助一個案有那個體育大學"},{"start":322.288,"end":327.914,"text":"海洋 是是是但是我認為還不夠對 你自己都說太少了我們一起繼續來努力推動海洋無障礙但是在海洋無障礙的先決條件我們很多的樣態也就是上次本席跟您提出的在潛水活動跟漁船作業的這個衝擊"},{"start":342.209,"end":359.954,"text":"當然這要跨部會你也答應本席說在年底的時候會提出有進度了我也希望在年底的時候能夠真正的去降低潛水員跟漁船間的一個風險一定大幅改善所以一定要大幅改善那我們也"},{"start":361.154,"end":383.306,"text":"能夠在年底的時候告訴這個社會大眾最後一個議題也就是我們針對於現在國家管轄範圍以外區域海洋生物多數性的一個保育跟永續利用的協定那全世界預估現在大概有60個國家批准那麼預估是在明年的115年1月17號要生效"},{"start":386.508,"end":405.651,"text":"那這個協定包括了四大專章包括了海洋基因資源海洋保護區在內的以區域為基礎的管理工具還有海洋環境影響評估以及能力建構與海洋技術的一個移轉當然它涉及到整個經濟"},{"start":406.852,"end":408.893,"text":"農業以及交通這各部會的一個業務所以它的影響層面是非常的廣泛所以在考量協議已經要在明年115年1月17號要生效了那當然我們針對於這樣的四大專章的議題相對的是刻不容緩"},{"start":426.818,"end":435.604,"text":"必須要去準備所以在這樣迫切的生效時程當中海委會我們目前您定準備好了嗎我們的相關對策怎麼樣的跟國際來接軌確保我國海洋的一個權益跟委員報告我們有兩個計畫"},{"start":444.991,"end":469.115,"text":"就这件事情我们有两个很坚强的团队学术界两个很坚强的团队这几年已经一路都帮着我们一路在监测这个过程然后设法去参与因为它是联合国相关我们没有办法正式参与但是我们就是辗转迂回能够参与到里面去希望能够不要过度的损害我们的利益"},{"start":469.675,"end":496.954,"text":"這個是最重要的所以我們有兩個很堅強的團隊持續的我們都請他們一路在做相關的計畫好 那也就是已經要執行之了所以迫切需要那維護我國海洋的權利呢我相信這是您跟我跟我們全民都希望一定要維護那你們所準備的相對的這個對策您也請書面資料一份給本席謝謝"},{"start":499.155,"end":499.305,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"165708","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165708","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9133f8f8f90c028158ec4841f031bc0ad0a8603fab3ff6def27f8672e411591f1865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:23:09 - 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豐濱鄉那邊還有呢台東有嗎"},{"start":286.257,"end":313.706,"text":"台台東市台東市他們現在提出的計畫有包括要結合結合陸域的一些這些文化那所以這部分也還在審議審議當中好這個所以你們有一些相關的資料再提供給我好我們接下來這個雖然直接上跟海委會"},{"start":315.083,"end":344.088,"text":"没有直接的关系但是跟你的海巡署海巡署有军有警军警军警的比在海巡署比例多高军职的比例高对军职的比例大概8000多那警职的比例大概3000我的建议是这样因为现在主委很清楚现在"},{"start":346.648,"end":371.554,"text":"這個115年度的中央政府的總預算就卡在這個軍人的待遇條例跟這個警察的人員人事條例都就是要請這個主委要跟院長這個報告或是請託軍人待遇條例左院長已經附屬了有沒有"},{"start":372.492,"end":400.426,"text":"左院長有附屬才會公布施行然後因為按照憲法徵求條文的話就是沒有知愛難行才會去附屬然後公布對不對沒有知愛難行才會去附屬才會公布所以還是回到憲政像這個這個警察人員人事條例警察人員人事條例也經過"},{"start":403.165,"end":429.88,"text":"一憲法徵修條文提復議復議的結果也出來了復議時如今前提立法為二分之一以上決議維持延案行政院院長應即接受該決議所以就是回到憲政遵守憲法所以這個部分要請我們共同的去努力"},{"start":431.991,"end":451.8,"text":"讓這個115年度的總預算趕快執行趕快審查所以這個部分也請這個主委跟院長報告這個預算看怎麼補編追加都可以加油好啦"}]}},{"id":"165665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91312bb8b8e707dcbbd3be06babd869ba0a43079a982cb9ebe0d6b39e882d62cf0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:54:47 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社長好委員好本期今天要針對未成年性犯罪被告來延長追訴權的問題來跟您就教這個有關於兒少保護還有涉嫌涉及重大制度面的部分未成年性犯罪被害人追訴時效的問題"},{"start":38.735,"end":62.674,"text":"本席覺得有一些制度面還需要再進一步討論的本席先說明對這個部分的一個看法我覺得是有一點點缺陷我們的刑法第八十條追溯期間的一個制度沒有考量未成年被害人在心智發展保護意識跟自我認知上的一個弱勢"},{"start":64.676,"end":83.467,"text":"舉個例啦高雄的國小體操的性侵案件那麼有許多被害者他追溯期已經過了結果沒有辦法就責然後在前幾年2023年又有知名的藝術家性侵未成年少女的案件同樣也是因為追溯期"},{"start":85.228,"end":103.681,"text":"要到了 檢方就沒有起訴甚至有很多兒少的被害人到成年以後才發現自己 才理解自己被性侵害但是法律卻要求他們在當幼年時就要能夠勇於發聲這個是今天本席要討論的一個主軸"},{"start":105.383,"end":125.845,"text":"這讓人家感覺是一種法律上的殘酷把未成年的被害人要求的跟成年人一樣有所謂的性自主認知或有維護能力有社會支持系統的這個能力其實是有點社會的不正義許多性侵害的一個加害者常常都是被害者的一個親屬"},{"start":126.966,"end":143.187,"text":"那麼一個孩子如何能夠在追溯期間鼓起勇氣或者是追溯期到了那國家就只能放過這個加害者那這個是在法律上有點不合理那本席就針對法務部目前的一些相關草案有一些看法然後來救教您"},{"start":144.088,"end":165.576,"text":"那個法務部的版本是在第80條這邊以不記錄期間作為一個處理那本席看來很像追溯時效的制度上的一個時效停止所列的一個障礙是由那既然刑法的83條已經有時效停止的一個制度那麼本席請教法務部是不是認為"},{"start":167.216,"end":195.37,"text":"應該將未成年人沒有辦法有效行使權利的期間也明顯納入該法條然後讓合法體系一致那麼第二個部分是法務部的版本僅涵蓋了刑法中屬於性侵害犯罪的罪名但是兒童及少年性剝削防治條例中強制性交強制猥褻的犯刑同樣涉及很嚴重的一個性侵害"},{"start":196.15,"end":222.164,"text":"本席在這邊請教為這個部分為什麼沒有跟衛福部來會商來一併研議是不是延長追訴時效那麼次長法務部是不是可以支持把兒少性剝削條例中的性交與猥褻犯罪猥褻犯罪納入追訴期延長的範圍把罪犯與刑法性侵害本質完全相同"},{"start":222.884,"end":238.173,"text":"的東西一起納入 本席認為這個修法可以一步到位 那您的看法呢好 謝謝委員的這個質詢 關於這個本部當然也贊成這個未成年他被性侵的話他的追訴權要做特別的處理"},{"start":238.593,"end":259.234,"text":"在他的渠道上就如同有兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說我們本部所提出的草案就是說他在未成年在未滿20歲之前我們不開始計算他的追溯權換句話說從20年才開始計算我們80條的追溯權失效這當然是第一種方式這也是本部目前送到行政院的版本所採取的方式"},{"start":259.794,"end":273.601,"text":"剛剛委員所提到的就用這個追溯學院實教這個停止的觀念可不可以本部也評估過因為停止它是一個非常複雜的在說實體法非常複雜的一個計算的方式它停止之後一段時間還有消滅的問題它會又繼續再接回來計算的問題"},{"start":278.283,"end":301.601,"text":"那其實對這個未成年人的保護其實不見得比較周圍所以我們現在在經過政策上評估之後送到行政院行政院基本上我們省局的條文基本上會從他滿20歲之後之前都不計算從20歲之後才開始計算我們刑法上所有的追訴權其實這也是參照外國的立法力外國有立法力也是這樣子計算的那這個部分你們有跟衛福部討論過嗎有請他們一起針對這個部分來做一些意見的陳述嗎"},{"start":308.187,"end":326.281,"text":"這個在行政院的討論的時候倒是沒有啦但是這整個修法過程當中我們也有對外公告那我們有發布相關新聞稿其實那個衛福他們應該會知道如果相關建議會會來跟我們我想在過程當中如果他們能夠參與或許他會比較真正的pay attention"},{"start":326.801,"end":351.116,"text":"那委員你提到的其實是我第二個要回答的問題啦就是說為什麼特別條 可不可以有關特別法 性剝缺防治條例裡面要不要做特別的規範為什麼我們刑法只規範我們刑法本身沒有去規範性剝缺防治條例的時效的計算這就涉及到衛福部他本身他要在自己的 而主管法規裡面性剝缺防治條例裡面去訂他的追訴權時效"},{"start":352.91,"end":375.067,"text":"那你們在過程當中其實可以讓他知道你們針對這個這個主法的一個概念然後他要訂定的時候知道你們這樣一個修法的精神沒問題 跟我們報告 政委 我們在新幹線審查的時候政委已經也有指示要跟衛福部溝通衛福部也 其實他本身也訂掉了要在他自己所主管的法規這個性差異波解條例裡面去訂他的"},{"start":375.267,"end":404.522,"text":"但是我是覺得在過程當中你們如果可以在這一段先有一些溝通那彼此會知道你們在法條上的一個解釋概念限制然後跟可以做的一些空間公務員是知道他們也應允要在他自己的主管法規裡面去訂自己的追溯檢視效但是這就有點這個各行其道啦就是說如果在前面大家可以多一些溝通那可能在訂定的時候不管你是這個母法或者是他們去訂定的行政命令那可以知道這樣一個立法或修法的一個原則"},{"start":405.502,"end":422.417,"text":"比較符合這個法本身的一個想法跟精神所以比較少在行政命令上你會覺得說好像母法跟行政 對不起所以相關的這個法規裡面跟我們原有的意旨會有比較大的一個差距這是本席的一個最主要的一個想法"},{"start":422.777,"end":427.72,"text":"對 應該是不會這樣因為他們已經充分知道而且他也要在自己的法律上請你們後續來跟本席談一下你們剛才考量有關於停止跟消滅的這個部分是在這裡面你們是怎麼考量的然後本席講的這樣一個概念我想要聽一下這個相關的一個你們當時的一個考量好 沒問題那就主要因為那個兒少被害人其實他需要一些時間但是現在感覺上有一些期限的一個追趕"},{"start":451.135,"end":479.9,"text":"那麼制度最大的責任是不要讓這個被害人在時間或加害人在時間之後在時間後面會躲避責任我們要把真正的兒少權益放在第一位所以本席這邊提出來就是他們其實在當時不見得知道或許是後續如果沒有一些可能性或者被教導他們其實不盡然知道那兒童時期發生的事情可能是對他們本身是有影響的"},{"start":481.02,"end":509.537,"text":"那接下來這個部分就請你們後續這邊跟我做一個解釋好不好那對於已發生的跟追溯時效尚未完成的這個案件那到底對於應該適用新法或舊法那你們的草案在刑法施行法的第八之一條適用對行為人最有利的原則那本席這邊的理解就算新法是為了保護兒少但是如果舊法對加害人比較有利就用舊法"},{"start":510.077,"end":532.345,"text":"那這樣子的設計是不是會違反修法的一個目的我們對於這個兒少受性侵的時候可能不懂那是侵害然後也有因為還未成年那不是太成熟的情況下可能會擔心家庭壓力或者是情緒會有一些威脅那要到很久以後那才會真正知道他的創傷那這個是本席剛剛在80條一直討論的"},{"start":534.066,"end":559.421,"text":"那麼這個修法如果新增未成年時間不列入追溯時效的一個制度那希望能夠讓被害人真正能夠追溯到加害者但是你們的版本有可能導致以下幾個情況如果案件發生了很多年那時效已經進行了一段時間那時效尚未完成卻因為對行為人最有利的原則那被害人不能適用新法"},{"start":559.761,"end":577.681,"text":"那這不就是很多爭取兒少正義的案件依舊被舊法來卡死嗎這是不是有點違背所以本席請教兩個問題第一個法務部為何認為適用舊法而不優先考慮這次時效改革最核心精神的保護弱勢被害人這樣一個考量"},{"start":578.061,"end":593.191,"text":"那第二個部分是本席認為追溯時效在新法施行尚未完成就應該適用修正後的新法那這是最能夠落實你們這次修法的目的也不會出現的被害人基本上可以讓被害人勇於發聲但是他發聲了之後結果就法的時效也讓他求助無門那這個是本席這邊的兩個部分請你回應一下跟委員報告"},{"start":605.839,"end":631.915,"text":"那原來我們公布的草案當然是用行為實法這是法律上一個蠻重要的原則就是說用行為實的法律去適用但是送到刑事政經院之後我們也廣納各界的意見現在我們整個定調的版本就如同剛剛委員所提的我們未來在這個施行法則的過橋條款我們採委員剛剛所建議的完全採用行為就修法後的新法來適用這個追訴權時效"},{"start":632.836,"end":654.885,"text":"完全跟委員剛報告一模一樣就是未來只要延長了我們也適用新法而不是我們原來所提出來的公告的草案適用行為司法我們是要適用這個新法來處理我們剛剛委員所提的相關的問題所以跟委員剛剛 我們已經修正了相關的條文現在修正的這個部分是跟我剛才講的意旨是比較接近的"},{"start":655.305,"end":682.552,"text":"一模一樣 就是是用行為時的而且是用新法是用新法本市只要確定在這個這個實行的這個時間上是同步的對 就是說我們未來我們對這個被害人成年後才計算他的時效的話未來就直接是用新法了不是用舊法不是用那個行為時那個法律所以本市只要確認我這個疑慮你們是不是在修法的過程當中有處理了有處理了"},{"start":684.273,"end":691.58,"text":"最後一個 本席過去也提到過也就是西門檢查辦公大樓所引發的一些爭議你們現在想要選擇的地址是在西門町的黃金地段"},{"start":699.888,"end":720.499,"text":"還有 你們知道這件事情吧知道你們說是檢查園區但是我相信你們未來也不可能整體開放隨時開放讓大家在那邊有你們想像的園區跟在地居民想像的一個公共觀光的空間最重要的是你們選擇的地方是以前我們成長記憶當中的國軍"},{"start":722.66,"end":727.264,"text":"文藝中心這邊因為我們過去常常在中山堂那邊演出然後國軍藝文館也是我們常常走的這個動線所以在中華路而且緊鄰西門町那你們也知道西門町目前的一個空間地景的一個想像跟它的調性但是很重要的是你們在國軍文藝中心然後三軍軍官俱樂部福利站之所在"},{"start":745.258,"end":759.164,"text":"這個不僅是很多人舊時的記憶也離現在年輕人觀光客很密集的地方很近居民認為這樣的規劃是沒有考慮到地方的發展但是很重要的是說你們在2017年國防部在舉辦光這個園地它是用台北國防文教專區民間參與的"},{"start":768.008,"end":781.98,"text":"興建移轉案當時的一個公聽會也承諾要將藝文廣場還有購屋商場跟便民的一些措施措施在這邊來興建但是到了2022年他們突然被通知這邊成為檢查大樓"},{"start":784.382,"end":797.952,"text":"雖然美其名為檢察園區可是應該如剛才本席這邊所想的你們不可能常常是開放的然後變成一個又要辦公然後又要有一些觀光氛圍的一個空間所以本席這邊要談的是你們在都會的這個核心地帶"},{"start":801.534,"end":818.553,"text":"設置高密度的一個司法設施那經過很完整的評估嗎經過跟在地的這個考量嗎那如果未來因為大規模的陳抗如果發生那或某一些移送案引發社會的一些這個舉措那造成交通的問題還有民眾的恐慌怎麼辦"},{"start":821.836,"end":838.635,"text":"第二個部分是你們這邊跟在地到底有多少溝通在地的居民本席在去年應該先前也應該問過這個問題當地的居民的陳情已經百人了九月之後你們還有沒有公聽會有沒有相關的一些替代方案你們是不是應該要"},{"start":839.676,"end":854.617,"text":"有更完整的評估那在你們縝密的這個維安或靜置區怎麼規劃然後這個空間如何在保有過去地景的一個記憶跟現在空間的一個調性那這個是本席是不是可以給本席一個回應"},{"start":855.197,"end":883.842,"text":"跟委員報告那因為檢察署北檢跟台高檢他提出的設置他必須要在整個我們司法園區這一塊裡面做相關的運作他不可能離法院太遠在整個台北司法園區他可以選擇的地點實在是非常有限至於這個山關營區事實上在這個跟委員報告在整個過程當中當然大院非常多委員也關心民意代表關心這個事情那整個評估的過程跟現在甚至到這個月上個月"},{"start":884.522,"end":913.558,"text":"台北地檢署都還不斷地有跟在地的民意代表或者是里長有一些共識的取得嗎當然他有進行相關的溝通共識的取得當然我們需要台北地檢署更多的努力當然民眾他有講的那些問題也有可能發生成抗事件的話但是未來北檢在整個設計上他要怎麼去避免他整個設計上他要去做相關的規劃這個北檢他都充分知道了剛剛委員所提的相關問題"},{"start":914.651,"end":931.921,"text":"我們只希望這邊不要變成土城看守所的一個前置那很重要一點就如本席剛才所講的這邊的調性跟這個所謂的檢查園區有很大的一個差異那我想在地居民的一個恐慌跟疑慮是必然的然後最重要的是"},{"start":932.321,"end":955.172,"text":"最黃金的公共空間應該有符合最大的公共使用性這點應該是我們在行政作為上要注意的我們常常可能因為變異形勢或者是就近對我們來講這樣子一個交通便捷的地點可能辦公方便但是很重要的是交通便捷的地點這種公共設施其實很重要的是要符合"},{"start":955.672,"end":963.889,"text":"民眾使用的最大公共性那這點我還是在這邊呼籲啦把它考量進去 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是你的想法"},{"start":141.608,"end":160.06,"text":"有什麼樣的進度或是碰到什麼樣的困難台灣跟關島之間還有很大發展的空間因為美軍的駐軍增加然後在地緣政治上台灣跟關島的關係也在加強"},{"start":162.13,"end":179.042,"text":"我們就是要交流一定要有飛機不管客運或貨運所以我們先協調了華航做了三個月的在這個今年初的包機直航然後我們也協調當然包括就是像新宇他們如果再增加一班的話"},{"start":180.303,"end":197.944,"text":"還是有可能這個可以在比較夜間的時間另外就是當然美國的航空公司啊他們如果有商機他們當然也會飛而這裡面有一個很重要除了觀光客之外就是醫療轉整台灣有龐大的醫療資源啦我們如果能夠為太平洋導國啊"},{"start":199.085,"end":219.302,"text":"都來台灣接受最好的治療 物美價廉我們照顧他們的國家的領導人 或者是人民的時候他也會感謝我們 這個對邦交會有幫助至於說如果投資 因為現在投資美國 關稅的問題關島也是可以到美國也是算美國的領土所以怎麼樣去鼓勵台商投資關島"},{"start":221.043,"end":242.719,"text":"這個都可以算進去 台灣投資美國退所以現在最重要的就是直航的班機為什麼 交通便携是所有交流的一個基礎那第二個 現在關島及西的就是剛剛你所提的就是醫療轉整的這個部分第二 現在他們及西是農業跟水產業這一次我們參訪 我帶著這個"},{"start":246.321,"end":272.855,"text":"當然那個時候是因為我本來帶隊因為我們宴會裡面的一個大會所以我就不能去當然有外交部這一些工作人員的安排之下他們到了關島的時候他受惠了非常的多了解了整個關島的整個地形地物地貌包含地方的投資的環境那後來古雷路總督希望能夠第一個就是能夠把直航的這些班機"},{"start":273.735,"end":288.524,"text":"是不是趕快跟我們中央航空因為現在是美國航空在做一個一個星期才一班那是因為疫情的因素過去裡面所發生的但是在2019年的時候"},{"start":290.445,"end":317.615,"text":"去那邊關島旅遊的將近兩萬九千多個疫情以後去年的十一月開始有直飛那這個直飛裡面就已經呈現成長的過程所以今天要突破的是第一個我們中華航空是不是有可以珍惜直航直飛那第二個就是在投資的企業的意願會增加"},{"start":319.055,"end":347.242,"text":"這也是國內路來到我們拜訪總統之後那總統也對著關島對他們的訴求也非常的重視所以在你的執政今天的外交部長能夠會有這樣的一個看法就等於是對於整個全球的原民外交的重視這一點我予以肯定部長我補充一下其實台灣去投資關島是很有商機"},{"start":348.482,"end":376.308,"text":"他除了未來駐軍增加的需求以外其實在農業方面尤其是垂直農場包括水耕因為他需要大量的糧食包括軍隊包括觀光客養殖業也是再來就是說他在美國他也免稅嘛所以這個工業區的開發另外就是觀光業其實已經有投資好幾家可是有一些法令涉及到他們美國本土有一些"},{"start":377.989,"end":399.942,"text":"這個所謂的比較稀有或微動物的保護可是那個在關島很多啦就是某種青蛙所以這個很多的開發遇到困難因為環評啦所以我也跟古蓮霍總督講他說沒有問題因為他很清楚這個問題所以他一定要幫忙解決所以現在突破直航的問題好 直航就是我們來協調航空公司因為這幾年航"},{"start":402.003,"end":430.677,"text":"我們的航空公司都想飛不能飛就是因為飛機不夠因為整個疫情期間還有過去採購的延緩交貨然後另外就是要新訂的大家很競爭那其他的航線也會有這個取代性所以我去協調就是說在既有的時間就是說我們的這個所謂的Time slot這個時間裡面還有沒有空打可以再多飛一班那有航空公司有表示"},{"start":431.417,"end":447.785,"text":"是可以的他們鋼天的最後一班還可以再加飛到關島就像紫航的這些觀光客到那個地方已經明顯的成長了所以這個顯見出來的所以我請部長來積極我跟委員再補充其實客運往往不會賺但是貨運會賺"},{"start":449.346,"end":473.086,"text":"所以這一架飛機它有客貨運那確實也有要做可是現在這飛機供不應求但是我們在協調我也會請北美斯回去再跟我們已經有協調過的航空公司看能不能趕快來補這個空缺因為上半年是比較多但是有一些像華航它一寄之後就沒有辦法再續飛了我們希望有其他航空公司也可以跟進"},{"start":473.646,"end":489.148,"text":"好因為實驗因素那我想說再提出一個一些想法是推動南投共同體的以原名外交是本席給自己一個任務跟旗行所以也希望在我們國際上有更多的一個推展的空間藉著原住民"},{"start":490.65,"end":512.944,"text":"這個南島語系的國家連結達到低調 突圍以關島的往來只是一個理念的第一步一個起點 不敢說成果豐碩那至少探索出一個可嘗試的一個路線當然我也是替外交部敲敲門敲敲門 這個路線可不可以走"},{"start":513.504,"end":541.46,"text":"那我想這一次我必須要講就是我們具有了解我們園民會明年計畫組團到出訪到巴拉圭那就是要在以園民外交上有所貢獻那根據統計巴拉圭國民中原住民人口也有14萬人口左右且國民有百分之具有90%難道與系族的血統上個月巴拉圭眾議院"},{"start":542.561,"end":562.463,"text":"拉多連議長來訪到立法院的時候本席也和議長及訪團貴賓交叛不少的原民議題的議題來看法讓本席驚訝的是巴拉圭的原住民雖然不是主流人口但官方以嚴重且使用當地的原住民語音"},{"start":563.605,"end":578.222,"text":"瓜拉尼主流的非原住民且广泛使用非原住民人口的原住民渔可见原住民让遗体让巴拉圭获得重视的程度所以这一次因为我想"},{"start":578.943,"end":602.625,"text":"建議我們外交部希望可能圓明會的想法出訪到巴拉圭在資源上能夠多以益助我想他們在這一次的出訪也就是以圓明外交統合外交包含龍幫計畫的外交我想這是一個好事能夠促成能夠讓圓明會出訪成功但經費有限 請部長"},{"start":603.266,"end":622.638,"text":"多支持這樣的想法是 因為總和外交有12個重點其中原住民外交就是指以它除了南島 嶼西 海洋的國家陸地的國家其實全世界包括加拿大 澳洲 紐西蘭他們的原住民外交都非常重要而且包括他們經濟社會的權利包括這一些各種的文化"},{"start":623.819,"end":647.538,"text":"這個語言的保存跟怎麼去發揚所以台灣有非常好的經驗那我們會再跟原民會有雙部長會議最近就會召開那針對這個項目我們會找出來怎麼樣整合啊兩個部會的力量一起來推動原住民外交我想這個太好了我想剛剛我們陳永康委員特別提出來我們現在我們現在的優勢AI的優勢包含晶片的優勢這樣的一個注入到在各個一個"},{"start":651.22,"end":670.789,"text":"這樣的以嚴明外交包含聯繫南東以西的民主裡面來講的話是一個讓我們國內能夠走出去展現我們國際的一些亮能跟包含我們的一個亮度好不好好 謝謝委員也謝謝兩位無論所大使也是原住民的大使 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我想先請一下我們國發會主委好 我們請國發會主委 謝謝"},{"start":18.749,"end":47.825,"text":"委員長主委早因為今天主席安排的一個題目其實非常的切合現在台灣那個需求有關台灣未來競爭力支持AI時代台灣如何贏得新的人才戰那我想說因為跟人才有關的議題其實非常的多因為人才的部分包括我們台灣自己培養也包括從國外那個去延攬去搶人才那我想說所以今天我們來的單位非常多除了國發會之外還包括我們"},{"start":49.105,"end":77.298,"text":"經濟部、國科會、教育部、勞動部等等那我想說我一開始的時候先來講一下整個國際纜財的一個問題因為經濟部這邊直接講 之前曾經講過說未來四年的時候台灣要有20萬個AI人才那這樣一個工作人員投入那這量非常的大 其實台灣的教育體系完全沒辦法直接培養出來這麼多的人那事實上說過去這幾年因為"},{"start":78.089,"end":79.755,"text":"整個美中貿易戰爭的一個"},{"start":83.406,"end":110.271,"text":"再加上長期以來就是一些華裔研發人員台裔研發人員在美國這個環境當中會經常碰到一個隱形玻璃天花板的一個問題所以說從2018年開始的時候其實很多很多的美國的一個高階的研發人員開始回流中國大陸跟其他的地方那事實上在光是2023年一年就有"},{"start":111.212,"end":127.727,"text":"超過4000名高科技研發人員回到大陸去那我想說台灣在這一波AI的一個全球競爭過程當中也扮演非常重要的一個角色那我之前曾經問過一個有關於那個Talent Taiwan的問題就是"},{"start":128.867,"end":147.015,"text":"國發會這邊有一個國際纜財的一個平台可是這平台非常的被動它就是弄成一個網站之後讓大家自己來點選那我想請教一下國發會主委我們國發會在這邊有沒有更積極的一些動作在做國際在搶奪人才在爭取人才到台灣來"},{"start":148.155,"end":176.814,"text":"可不可以請主委做一個具體的說明謝謝委員這個部分的話跟委員報告就是說像Talent Taiwan這個部分的那個網站其實我們已經有在做更進一步的一個優化譬如說原本都只有英文跟日文那其實我有跟同仁講說其實這個還不夠就是說你要有比較多的語言在裡面譬如說假如說我們除了AI人才之外有一些譬如說像中階的一些工作的話我們可能會從那個"},{"start":178.676,"end":205.197,"text":"新南向这边进来即使是AI的话我们也会锁定在那个印度这边所以相对来讲的话我们这个Talent Taiwan的这个部分的网站的话其实我已经要求同仁在这边这个就是我上次讲的部分我们这个Talent Taiwan的部分就是被动的等着大家来点选我说我们有没有更积极的去争取比方说我们在矽谷在Boston这边会不会有一些相关的一些"},{"start":206.758,"end":228.809,"text":"招攬人才的單位去獵頭讓更多的人願意到台灣來來壯大台灣的一個AI生態系有跟委員報告其實我們也有透過那個Linting這樣的一個網站那這網站裡面儲存了大概是億筆的那個全球的那個人才那我們在這網站裡面我們可以經由我們所"},{"start":229.829,"end":245.702,"text":"鎖定的一些領域那去點選完了之後的話這個網站就會跟我們講說在哪一個區域裡面這一類的人才是比較多的那就AI人才這個部分來講的話我們發現就是說美國跟印度比較多那美國這個部分其實我們也有鎖定"},{"start":246.142,"end":261.583,"text":"那我們在那個美國矽谷其實有一個Startup Island Taiwan這樣的一個據點那我們也充分利用這個據點去延攬譬如說像喬二代啦或者是像海外的一些校友那其實都有在做一些連結以及辦一些活動那把台灣"},{"start":262.704,"end":290.463,"text":"需要的一些AI的人才都僅有這樣的一個機會好 謝謝主委你剛剛特別提到喬二代這個部分我也特別關心因為台灣其實坦白說有很多優秀的小留學生他們很小就出國去可是當他們到了一個職場的一個就入職場年紀會碰到一個兵役的問題所以在這邊的時候我想請教國發會我們是不是有評估評議過兵役的問題還有一些他們的配偶跟子女的入境"},{"start":292.744,"end":319.947,"text":"還有就學的一個問題對我們在纜財當中可能會碰到一些阻礙那我們這邊有沒有針對一個部分做一個跨部會的一個整合來試圖解決這樣的問題讓更多可能是我們的小留學生到國外去或者是一些國外的一些人才讓他們能夠更順暢的到台灣來否則的話很多比方說他們如果說是國外的人到台灣來如果他們有另外的一半配偶的時候那"},{"start":320.953,"end":333.81,"text":"如果他們不是高科技的人士他們可能在台灣是找不到工作的我們會不會有一些相關的一些配套來讓這些AI的高科技人才能夠更友善的到台灣來壯大台灣的生態系"},{"start":336.013,"end":352.98,"text":"就这部分跟委员报告我们在Talent Taiwan的这样的一个网站其实我们会提供一站式的服务也就是说只要我们接到案件的话我们会询问就是说你对于在台湾居留你发生什么样问题比如说我们比较常收到的一个状况就是说他在金融"},{"start":353.723,"end":383.033,"text":"在銀行要開戶的時候他要怎麼開那這個部分的話其實我們都有後續的一些設計就是說只要進來那我們就可以協助他去在銀行開戶主委這個部分不只是發掘問題因為這邊現在台灣有一些是因為制度上的不夠友善讓很多人走不進來我剛剛提到兵役就是其中的一個環節那我們怎麼樣的方式能夠透過國發會的角色做一個跨部會的部分讓台灣在這個部分能夠更為友善"},{"start":383.991,"end":399.843,"text":"因為這個病疫問題涉及到 再舉這個例子啦那我剛剛包括講說配偶的一個工作的問題 路徑的問題小朋友的一個就學的問題等等甚至包括有些外籍人士他們如果到台灣來的時候小朋友都要再做一個相關的一個"},{"start":400.896,"end":425.247,"text":"學員的一個證明確定他是一個確定是他的一個子女等等的一個動作那我們會不會有一些跨部會的方式做更友善的一個制度上的一個改變而不是只是發現問題而已有就是說這個部分我們Talent Taiwan不是只有我們國發會在做其他的一些部會假如說有碰到一些問題或什麼話都可以透過這個Talent Taiwan跟我們反映譬如說像在"},{"start":426.667,"end":454.486,"text":"徵求一些國外人才的部分的話我們也跟外交部配合那外交部現在就是說外面的那個要申請進來的譬如說像數位郵募這一塊的話原本是要用資本的那我們現在已經跟外交部合作說他是不是可以由線上直接申請那就委員提到那個配偶的問題的話我們在今年8月通過那個攬財專法裡面有針對特賺的配偶這個部分的工作的話其實是有放寬的OK"},{"start":455.106,"end":470.266,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我接下來我要特別提到一個跟教育部跟我們速發部這邊可能有點關係的部分就是台班怎麼樣去培養就是既有的一個人才那事實上從那個"},{"start":471.528,"end":499.836,"text":"NVIDIA其實在台灣要落腳的時候他們已經開出年薪550萬在搶人才所以竹科這邊也出現很多人才移動的一個潛在的一個因子那事實上就是台灣這邊的一些人才AI人才其實顯然是不夠的那就很多的數據都提出來那我這邊要特別提到就是說人才不夠的部分還包括教師荒的問題那我們要怎麼樣透過AI來補足教師荒不足的部分尤其像理科的一個教師人才"},{"start":500.476,"end":518.145,"text":"那有人提到說那可能就是用那個提高薪資的方式可是坦白說你不可能只提高理科老師的一個薪資其實問題是一個很全面的所以我在這邊同時提到幾個問題一個就是整個人才培育的問題那我在教育部這邊有一個接下來有一個四年的一個AI教育計畫"},{"start":519.246,"end":537.55,"text":"那我理解這個狀態可是我要特別提到的一個點就是說在整個我們AI教育當中的時候可能會出現有一些AI的一個資訊的一個不正確的問題所以說事實上包括BBC他們之前就曾經做過一個研究報告就是說你用"},{"start":538.07,"end":560.875,"text":"AI生成出來的新聞資料當中的時候有45%是有問題的是不正確的就有AI資訊錯誤的一個問題然後事實上在美國這邊的時候歐洲這邊也出現了很多的一個AI的一個跟生成式對話語言的時候呢會導致他們出現一些心理上面一些問題所以自殺的問題變得非常非常的嚴重"},{"start":563.495,"end":591.876,"text":"然後再加上最近在台灣有很多AI生成式AI自動生成的一些醫療網站然後出現很多的醫療詐騙的一個問題AI詐騙的一個問題那我想這些問題都是我們在做整個AI生態系在人才提供的過程當中我們要讓整個AI生態系更完整的過程當中都會碰到的部分那我想針對這部分先請教育部這邊簡單回應一下剛剛有兩個部分都跟教育部這邊有關"},{"start":594.2,"end":620.295,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想在中小學的部分我們現在針對於課程教學學習的評量以及在作業的使用生成式AI其實已經都有相關的注意事項提醒老師跟學生要注意一些重要的原則另外我們在今年年底12月的時候我們也會有中小學使用AI的一個應用手冊會納入更多一個實際的範例來讓老師跟學生在"},{"start":620.996,"end":649.39,"text":"學習過程教學過程中會有更好的一些參考依循因為AI它能夠模仿能夠關心可是它沒有辦法真正理解情緒啦它可能可以陪伴它可能會產生一些誤導的一個狀態就像BBC他們研究整個新聞甚至是AI出現的狀態有45%的一個錯誤所以AI教導孩子可能會有一些知識的部分可以提供給他們可是可能也會模糊他們對判斷還有現實的感知尤其是現實感知的問題我覺得這非常的重要"},{"start":649.75,"end":665.909,"text":"所以也希望說我們教育部在整個推動我們AI教育當中的時候對這個部分能夠特別的去重視因為這是一個很長期的一個問題而且如果發生了之後它是一輩子的問題好不好 針對這部分我們都特別去那針對那個"},{"start":667.21,"end":689.657,"text":"整個AI詐騙的部分我剛剛特別提到有關於比方說醫療網站詐騙因為很多視頻一出來都是百萬人點選那很多老人家可能就很容易被詐騙那目前我知道數位部這邊的時候他們可能有一些相關的一些計畫在培訓老人家可是量遠遠的不夠這部分可不可以簡單做個回應"},{"start":689.957,"end":709.847,"text":"是 謝謝委員就這個部分我們其實從今就是已經在做的是一個叫數位鬥陣去的一個計畫那到各個城鄉去持續性幾乎每週的辦活動那我們未來明年也會擴大跟更大型的活動合辦另外也跟在地的也希望跟在地的這個民間組織"},{"start":711.128,"end":739.424,"text":"包括各式各样的民间组织甚至像是老人安养中心然后庙宇这些去推动让老人家能够更有机会去了解这些风险我们目前的不论是教材或是比较亲民的游戏这些方式其实都已经洗背了明年会用更大规模的更和民间合作的方式去推动这件事情谢谢因为那个"},{"start":740.725,"end":754.618,"text":"詐騙是現在台灣所有人民心中最不爽的一個部分所以我們希望這麼多AI生成式的詐騙的部分我們數位部這邊能夠扮演更激烈角色來防詐騙這個部分好不好 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9134b825b41d3523a77f94607883e6102ae26f9ed453590123b9dbd41b275635fa55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:45:10 - 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教育部政事請劉次長"},{"start":11.951,"end":36.723,"text":"好 次長好今天我們討論這個議題是非常重要都希望說兒少有一個安全的環境來使用當然也必須要去避免到過度的管制而且要避免到用禁止來去代替教育所以今天的內容是在於說不當的內容那因此就首先要問的是教育部這一部分如何去判定不當的內容"},{"start":37.563,"end":46.439,"text":"那這個目前教育部是不是在管理內容啊是不是用學校裡面的iWIN跟不當資訊系統來做防護 是不是"},{"start":47.943,"end":66.51,"text":"首先分開兩個再強調如果是APPAPP的話在我們學術網路上是不能裝置抖音跟小紅書的因為它是大陸製的轉硬體的對你們是用它的平台或是它的APP對不對APP那是不能裝的這清楚了我現在說的是不當內容如果不當內容的網站"},{"start":69.011,"end":92.789,"text":"的內容透過iWIN或透過iWIN的機制我們會那剛才有講可是內在學術網路當中出現的嘛對不對在學校在學校裡面的話他剛才已經有提到的如果他自己有這些的使用的網路他根本就不要受到這個影響那我們繼續往下看今天最重要的事要講的是不當那這個不當的標準是什麼我們看到你在說的有"},{"start":93.59,"end":106.646,"text":"包括色情、暴力、恐怖、血腥、危險的內容跟有害行為的部分呢通通都是要做進行那特別你們還做了一個蒐集到黑名單嘛 對吧那這個黑名單當中呢 目前有哪些名單啊"},{"start":111.25,"end":135.172,"text":"跟會員報告 這個黑名單其實是非常多不只是我們教育部主動發現如果一般的民眾 老師 學生有做這樣的通報但是對 很好 你這些名單但是 重要的是如果有被黑名單的話是不是要有經過一個機制實際上是重點的就是透過iWIN透過iWIN 但是iWIN的標準是什麼我們繼續往下看這邊裡面呢 我說如果一部短影片當中我今天等一下繼續問到它裡面的內容"},{"start":136.573,"end":147.716,"text":"如果一個短影片裡面有持槍射擊伴隨的不雅詞彙因為還有這算不算不當內容我們就來看一看喔這是這些你們的標準在這裡可是因為很含糊其實沒有辦法去做我們現在看它裡面的內容"},{"start":148.763,"end":153.705,"text":"好 这次我们继续再往下看这个地方设计到的枪支操作跟设计爆裂就次长你来看这是不是属于不当的内容"},{"start":178.354,"end":202.809,"text":"各位報告事實上任何的經過檢舉的網址或網站透過iWIN它會有一個審查機制審查機制那還有情節的重大輕重所以你們就等一下跟他講每天有三千萬隻在網路平台上面你們要花多少的能量去做這些事情這就是效率的問題你們針對的目標事實上都不明的問題我們繼續再往下看一個很好笑的"},{"start":204.81,"end":222.322,"text":"你們拿大槍 我們拿小槍所以這樣的話算你陣亡好 你就先下去唉唷 這樣子囉蛤 原來小手槍還可以這樣子用喔這是人們很喜歡看的小孩子都很喜歡看欸 我拿小槍 你們拿大槍你們陣亡媽啦 這麼遠算喔不要跟他計較他也只是個孩子"},{"start":223.363,"end":238.915,"text":"你們幹嘛我拿小槍我最大你們拿大槍你看這樣的行為這樣的行為我們繼續往下看到就停一下這算不算不當的內容"},{"start":242.489,"end":270.574,"text":"無法進來你現在馬上回答不出來這其實就是你看剛剛對我那個涉及的情況是那都還會造成受傷的情形我們繼續看那到底誰來判定呢教育部剛剛你說IWIN對不對IWIN這些部分還有AI防不勝防3000萬支一天耶在所有的這樣的平台當中我們繼續往下看另外我們看到的是教育部長在10月份的時候有被立委問到他說呢抖音這些有這種不當的訊息傳播"},{"start":271.954,"end":278.441,"text":"也有不當的性別障礙 但是最重要的是有許多跟學習比較無關的內容也會從這邊拿去做相關的設計但請問一下 連學習無關也要當作是一個要不就禁的內容嗎"},{"start":284.807,"end":302.494,"text":"這是部的立場還是個人部長的立場我想委員部長講的是針對我們教育部的學術網路他那部分對一般的網站並沒有這樣子所以你剛才呈現到教育部只能在學校裡面的使用用Tenet來去進行影響對不對"},{"start":304.375,"end":327.213,"text":"排除掉 但是在一般的人們當中都沒有嘛這就是非常重要的問題 你們就是防不勝防一直做了無效的動作啊 可是等一下當然最重要就是在媒體素養的部分啦 我就跟大家講 包括 等一下想 剛剛在說學校那在家長層面你們有數位工具包 那就要下載去進行那請問推廣的成效如何 下載數如何 使用率又怎麼樣現在有評估了嗎"},{"start":329.161,"end":338.667,"text":"那個我們 我剛才有看到一個數據我們數回報一天有一萬多看一下一天有一萬多啊 這麼熱門嗎這數據要經過認證的喔暫時間暫停一下"},{"start":344.235,"end":360.925,"text":"現在目前我累積的喔來了那個是這樣那個數位包上面到六月份到現在已經有一萬五千人瀏覽了一萬五千人然後我們也在有沒有下載瀏覽跟下載是一回事吧你沒有下載你怎麼去處理啊"},{"start":361.645,"end":377.806,"text":"不好意思委員我補充一下我們的數位工具包它是一個操作手冊那就是提供家長有那個iPhone的手機或是其他Android的手機怎麼用手機有的那一種家長防護親子帳號的功能去做這樣的一個"},{"start":378.407,"end":394.057,"text":"但是你沒有辦法 你是他有瀏覽但是沒有辦法認定說他的使用率會如何對不對你們有做後面的後續嗎是 委員這方面我們會盡力去好 這就涉及到你的預算了你們有沒有效果 事實上這部分是應該要打大找舌扣的當然這個分級的部分 請一下速發部的主秘"},{"start":402.574,"end":413.899,"text":"是 委員好請問一下你們有提到說今年年底的時候要提出建立的這個APP的分級制度有這個危害兒少的疑慮的部分那請問現在的進度如何"},{"start":418.822,"end":436.364,"text":"這個APP的分級制度如果是我們部長之前有提到的那我們就會在年底以前就把這個東西妳好像很不熟悉是嗎我們現在是有在盤點這個相關遊戲的年底現在不到一個半月了耶有有有那我們現在其實主要是透過兩種方式啦一個是"},{"start":437.945,"end":461.363,"text":"危害這個國安的部分來處理另外是遊戲分級的主要的部分來處理這樣子主要是從這兩個面上那你們分級會大概分成幾類就分成這兩類嗎大概是好 這一部分喔應該時間到了所以這邊你們應該其實應該很快要有這個報告出現給北本席那當然就是剛才那三個部分的話這三支我現在只放兩片而已啦請問這算不算不當內容"},{"start":463.536,"end":482.728,"text":"這個要有專業的判斷對就是因為今天是不當內容就是可以都可以去做沒有人判斷的沒有人做一個標準判斷的話就形成會過度的去限制尤其是剛才所說的一個創意的這個內容上面其實我剛才還問一下教育部或是現在問一下速發部這邊如果是真的學習有害的部分"},{"start":483.388,"end":504.03,"text":"像我們在看到的K-POP他們這種很多創意的那種他跟學可能學習無關這部分很多被禁掉啦所以請兩個部說三個部會通通要最最他是不是哪些是真正叫不當內容必須要提出來真正的一個標準出來這部分進度哪邊在哪個項目我們繼續往下看這不剛才說的每天有三千部的"},{"start":504.671,"end":534.031,"text":"三千萬隻的影印在這裡請教育部跟速發部這邊都要清楚怎麼去編啊怎麼去管啊 實在是沒有效的啊那我們繼續再往下看所以請教育部跟速發部要提供著這個書面報告給本席明確的定義跟清楚的規劃速發部這邊可以嗎可以啊好 在今年年底之前有新的APP的情形執行那我們再繼續再往下看的是說屬於教育部的次長請由次長到這邊來謝謝 謝謝速發部的主秘"},{"start":536.024,"end":548.223,"text":"很重要的 剛才所提到的講到了媒體素養 科技資訊等等這跟數位素養都是一樣的嗎定義是一樣的嗎 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employee在地的男性我们要有经费做出一些在地工作协调上复合上的帮忙我想我提出这个建言我请部长您做一些回应我们看看如何将来继续整合"},{"start":355.609,"end":383.225,"text":"好 謝謝委員很敬佩我想你可以把我們的總和外交跟龍邦計畫濃縮在一張圖表裡面我請我們同仁特別是顏社會我們稍微借用一下然後重新去整理我覺得這樣子非常清楚然後這個方法論的指導非常感謝那事實上在龍邦計畫上面有一個總和外交那是在"},{"start":384.125,"end":407.25,"text":"如果它是這個羅盤的話 總和外交 那三鏈戰略就是指針然後它去對接我們的對象國家所以您剛剛提到不管是台 美 中 這最重要的三角或是擴大到包括日本 歐洲 甚至全球南方我們就有一個戰略的一個架構 來指導外交"},{"start":408.13,"end":436.67,"text":"外交也是整個戰略的一部分那接下來就是說我們的總和外交因為量的增加當然很重要包括人啦預算可是值的提升也很重要所以我們希望整合協作所以部部都是外交部人人都是外交官由此公私協力啊讓台灣走向世界那這個時候呢我們講的三鏈戰略就是去練解看對方國家跟我們哪裡有交集這不是我們去拜託他是他國家也想做的"},{"start":437.29,"end":455.744,"text":"那這個樣子比如說援助變成投資的夥伴關係那不是援助的這種開發中國家屬於比較進步的國家我們什麼跟他鏈結呢台灣是位於所謂印太第一島鏈這個是安全跟同盟的這種外交台灣也是非紅供應鏈"},{"start":457.253,"end":473.104,"text":"的最重要我們的晶片AI等等這一個第三個台灣也是全球民主價值鏈對抗歐亞大陸的這個入權國家要做海權的擴張的時候我們台灣可以說是一個這個"},{"start":475.586,"end":492.191,"text":"法馬會決定包括美中抗衡的結果所以在這種情況之下我們台灣有什麼好東西可以跟人家分享而也帶來我們的能夠走向國際去更跟大家結合在一起越結合任性就越強所以這裡面有八大龍幫計畫"},{"start":493.872,"end":497.813,"text":"是反映在三鏈戰略裡面去鏈接它比如半導體供應的韌性那麼這個可信賴網路跟數位治理還有包括新人員跟探權以及我們的智慧科技園區這種解決方案再包括智慧醫療跟健康產業智慧新農業當然也包括這個主權AI另外就是永續觀光"},{"start":517.239,"end":523.202,"text":"所以整個我們可以找出對方的交集所以很多的國家現在看到台灣都當作一個可以幫他國家發展比如說我們現在美國優先在工業化要投資那美國要偉大台灣也可以跟著偉大雙贏的事情我們趕快來做雙輸的事情不要做他贏我輸我們盡量慢慢來做他輸我贏我們不要我們可以慢慢可以私下的做"},{"start":546.275,"end":566.952,"text":"所以這一個跟日本也是一樣也是要三鏈去鏈結跟歐洲尤其空間最大因為歐洲有三個因素台灣的重要性越來越重要是可以對他們的再工業化再武裝歐洲有幫助另外就是說俄羅斯的威脅不管戰爭結果如何持續都在而背後是中國所以台灣的經驗以及台灣怎麼樣跟他們戰略上可以合縱連橫這個雖然地理很遠"},{"start":574.687,"end":591.133,"text":"可是現實上就是互相影響現在全球可以說是同一盤棋那台灣不要是把台海問題看作一個只是兩岸關係或區域的問題它是一個全球性都關注的焦點那以這樣的一個"},{"start":592.193,"end":618.122,"text":"架構然後根據剛剛委員所提到的再來充實你們的內容因為戰略的話是要有目標你也要有策略而更要有能夠支持去實現目標策略的資源所以我們的能力多少我們才能夠達到目標不然目標高遠但是我們沒有足夠的緣額編制還有各種的整合那事實上目標也要跟著修正因為"},{"start":618.942,"end":634.142,"text":"不可能是變成一廂情願所以這個東西來來往往就構成了我們外交的戰略 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杨球英发言 邀请国发会国发会委员长"},{"start":21.114,"end":48.874,"text":"主委早我們政府全力的在推動AI指導但是算力的基礎設施背後的能源成本似乎被刻意的來淡化但是據我們媒體報導在5月30號的時候國家高速網路與計算中心的三部超級電腦一年電費要多少主委你注意到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":51.19,"end":71.307,"text":"主委你在推動AI指導你是很重要的推手你怎麼連媒體在5月30號所報導的這個訊息你都不知道那你怎麼樣能夠去預估呢"},{"start":72.495,"end":91.433,"text":"就部件呢本期告诉你据媒体的报道他是说这三部超级电脑一年的电费要破亿元再以台积电的用电来看2023年是230亿度那么预估在2030年的时候要330亿度"},{"start":92.274,"end":112.93,"text":"單一個企業幾乎要佔據了消耗了全國11%的電力隨著企業大規模的導入AI的訓練跟運算需求我們的國力 電力 綠電 水資源的缺口也正在擴大甚至出現綠電被大廠買光"},{"start":119.797,"end":135.728,"text":"綁了買光的一個壟斷現象但是政府到現在你沒有提出算力能源的評估標準也沒有跨部會的去協調能源的預算所以導致"},{"start":137.422,"end":162.862,"text":"這個面向也就是產業盡力努力去衝但是能源不夠用那AI的戰力可能會從國家的戰略變成是能源的黑洞所以本期首先要請教我們政府要全面的推動整個算力作為國家級的一個基礎建設那麼國防會你現在面對面對這樣子的超級電腦"},{"start":166.405,"end":179.861,"text":"AI的訓練中心跟先進製程的一個極速拉高電力的需求的情況你認為整個的能源總量的控管你要做怎麼樣的"},{"start":182.437,"end":207.237,"text":"預估 評估 佈建 請說說跟委員報告就是說其實經濟部在對於中長期的用電已經有把這個部分納入考量所以就是說預估來講的話未來十年納入考量你連我們國家最重要的國家高速網路與計算中心的三倍超過這個三部超級電腦一年要增加多少你知道要增加多少嗎"},{"start":210.1,"end":232.806,"text":"這個經濟部的資料裡面他有考慮他們預估每一年大概會增加1.7%的用電的成長但是告訴國發會主委既然你的主責要推動AI指導你要怎麼樣去提出明確的能源總量管控以及配套你們會不會提出啊"},{"start":233.616,"end":260.502,"text":"這個部分我們會跟經濟部跟國你什麼時候要提出我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候請告訴我們因為產業一直在前面衝但是他很害怕到底我的電力夠不夠算力超級電腦請做說明你們預估什麼時候會提出這個部分我必須要跟那個經濟部跟你說的很快是什麼時候你告訴我一個時間點嗎"},{"start":261.542,"end":275.23,"text":"因為我要跟那個經濟部這邊所以你的頭腦所謂的很快是隨便答一答你沒有時間點嘛 是不是不會是什麼時間點我也沒有辦法給委員很明確因為我必須要跟那個經濟部這邊沒有辦法給本席嘛你也沒有明確的時間點嘛好 那我們請經濟部長來我們一起"},{"start":287.909,"end":302.253,"text":"我們前一段時間本席跟廖院長 中研院院長討論過電要從哪裡來而且我們看到2030年是2800億度 2050年是5000億度而且廖院長說還不止 大概是2050年大概6000億度"},{"start":309.655,"end":324.164,"text":"但是他認為這個數字是沒有加入剛剛本席跟國防會主委在討論的算力以及超級電腦的這個部分喔是沒有喔所以本席也請問了廖院長你知不知詞"},{"start":325.104,"end":352.596,"text":"合二合三重啟的這個立場他是支持的他明確的說支持而且他說台灣不只台灣的技術還有國際的技術我們是有能力的這是廖院長在教育委員會的時候回答本席的議題因為我們知道加入了算力加入了這個超級電腦我們的電力務必跟原先的一個規劃是不一樣的"},{"start":353.416,"end":370.123,"text":"它是增加的 它是增加的所以為了不讓我們的產業在前面衝怕能源這些電力是不夠的所以本席來請教請教那麼部長重啟核二核三您的立場呢"},{"start":372.187,"end":388.254,"text":"行政部門是依法行政您的立場呢合法已經修了嘛讓我們可以有這個依法對 而且送到你這邊啊送到行政院啊 合下來的沒有他說這個禮拜要合啊 上次你答覆本席的啊"},{"start":389.154,"end":395.017,"text":"對不對 你們台電送給你們你們要給這個行政院嘛你告訴本席 上個禮拜告訴本席說這個禮拜行政院要簽 準跟不準嘛簽了嗎 今天禮拜四勒簽了嗎 12月初啦"},{"start":407.583,"end":411.628,"text":"你說下個禮拜怎麼可能12月數到代對不對為什麼會這樣子呢在這邊都有錄音錄影我們希望好好的給你們力量去協助民眾發展我們的產業又來了一個盡快剛剛國發會主委告訴我"},{"start":426.426,"end":452.876,"text":"儘快我問了 最後他說他沒有辦法告訴我時間那現在你又來一個儘快那在你的立場因為廖院長已經正式的在教育委員會答覆本席那請問您的立場您是不支持朝這個方 依法行政當然所以我們也改了這個法律嘛那所以本席再一次的請教你您的立場 因為我們需求量很大"},{"start":454.016,"end":482.595,"text":"而且政府也說採開放式的態度去看待核電再重啟以及核電的新技術對不對對那你的立場支不支持核二核三在安全無力的範圍之內呢那麼重啟核二跟核三來增加電力對 巴委員您剛才講說安全無意所以我們現在就在12月初之前我們就看看那個如果安全無意可以大致上可以完成我們就會簽核然後就會開始啟動"},{"start":483.676,"end":500.143,"text":"好 所以方向是一致的也就是依法 那你們會行政院你要趕快去追啊因為他追了之後你還要後續要檢查我們還是要安全啊那如果在安全無慮的這個情況之下"},{"start":500.563,"end":516.715,"text":"您經濟部長的立場是同意合二合三來做這個重啟增加我們的定力三個原則就是合安合肺跟共識嘛那我們現在就是把合安真的趕快做好好那剛剛這個我們有共識那請教剛剛國防衛主委"},{"start":520.638,"end":535.933,"text":"您說要問經濟部那麼這個算力超級電腦我們增加這個你當政府就一定要超前來部署那什麼時候可以將你們預估的這個電量管控評估"},{"start":537.355,"end":554.275,"text":"請告訴社會大眾 給本席我們2032年之前也做了一些估算那當然 呃 國會他們剛剛本席已經告訴你那沒有加入沒有加入超級電腦也沒有加入算力啊國會主委在你身邊啊他說他要問你 你要讓他問啊我知道"},{"start":555.977,"end":582.83,"text":"你知道要什麼時候嗎我們都會滾動檢討你請告訴我們一個時間點因為產業很急一個月一個月內告訴本席你們的這個怎麼樣去計算怎麼樣去佈建一個月內告訴本席接下來本席要請教我們的速發部速發部跟經濟部請留下速發部謝謝"},{"start":587.686,"end":604.445,"text":"數法部AI人才的培育是國家數位轉型非常重要以及產業升級的關鍵命脈那政府當然責無旁貸必須要去帶頭推動但是我們現在AI的人才在國家級的檢定經濟部是IPAS"},{"start":605.026,"end":629.117,"text":"IPAS的部分剛剛部長也說了今年度你們一萬四千人一萬四千人去報名然後有六千五百人通過那初期的部分上個禮拜本席也跟部長在討論也就是你們將初期的部分初期來考試考為中高級所以你在初期的公布通過的認證是38%"},{"start":631.818,"end":647.405,"text":"那其實這個部分是希望能夠全面的去推動抒發布我們這個部分是不是台灣既然要成為AI人才島那我們更應該全面去推進嗎是不是 抒發布"},{"start":648.445,"end":663.301,"text":"是跟委員報告其實除了經濟部他們就是經濟部處理的這個iPath這個認證之外本席請問你我們既然認為是AI的人才培育是國家數位轉型跟產業發展的關鍵命脈"},{"start":665.043,"end":681.078,"text":"那我们是不是各部会因为你现在没有一个统筹单位嘛各部会散布在各部会你让他们去做嘛但是我们要看他的成效啊所以这个原则是不是应该全面全民去推动是不是是是完全是嘛所以"},{"start":682.259,"end":697.191,"text":"他們現在要繳4000到6000元的學費那考試的部分大概1300塊但是我們看到你的認證的部分大家認為教學的品質以及過時的教材這個部分是不是應該要去精進方案"},{"start":707.108,"end":726.269,"text":"跟委員報告 這個部分因為是經濟部這邊處理的不是經濟部處理 是施策會現在本席所說的是施策會你是抒發部啊 你怎麼會就推到經濟部呢我們單位主管敬請各位各盡本職既然你要散落在各部會你就應該要負責啊是是"},{"start":728.291,"end":749.252,"text":"是不是 所以針對你的這個教材針對教學品質 本席具體要求你書發布要好好的去精進好 精進方案給本席那部長 上次本席告訴你說你考試要公布答案呢你現在公布了嗎 什麼時候要公布"},{"start":750.626,"end":776.61,"text":"就是考完以後就會公布你沒有公布啊 你到現在還沒公布啊大家都在等啊一個禮拜 一個禮拜為什麼可以這樣亂答呢本席上次就跟你討論這個問題我們既然要全面的推動你也答覆本席說要公布到現在還在那邊牽扯還在那邊牽扯 還不公布跟你答的跟做的完全不一樣你怎麼樣取信於人民呢"},{"start":778.593,"end":804.318,"text":"AI的認證這麼樣的重要 為什麼要胡亂打連你在現場答覆說要公佈答案到現在還沒公佈 什麼時候要公佈一個禮拜以內現在開始的一個禮拜還是上個禮拜的一個禮拜現在現在開始 好 我們有錄音錄音我希望你盡快公佈齁 還有公版的教材因為你剛開始 部長"},{"start":806.772,"end":815.8,"text":"你剛開始 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謝謝主席有請教育部劉國偉次長請次長"},{"start":32.881,"end":43.538,"text":"好 謝謝主席 市長早安不曉得您在青少年的時期有沒有讀過少年維特的煩惱沒有那您有沒有煩惱少年時期"},{"start":44.924,"end":70.547,"text":"應該很多 我不記得是嘛 大家都有煩惱那這本書我跟您介紹一下這個作者是戈德在25歲那一年寫出這本《世界名著》描寫青年的戀愛的苦澀跟情懷這個日記體的小說出版以後造成了全球轟動青少年更爭相模仿他的服裝最後主角在故事裡面寫了一封決別信告別這個世界市長"},{"start":71.388,"end":98.599,"text":"今天教育部的書面報告提到特定短影音平台推送智商影片傳達負面訊息這些有負面訊息的媒介都要在校園裡面禁止那教育部要不要禁止學生閱讀少年維特的煩惱還是說少年還是維特在台灣都不能有煩惱了只能正面積極陽光充滿愛啊是這樣嗎是還是不是只要有人檢舉我們就會去進入iWIN去討論哇"},{"start":102.458,"end":116.313,"text":"至少我再給你一個機會啊如果有人檢舉少年維特的煩惱有問題你們要去討論要不要進這本書啊我再給你一個機會喔你真的要這樣做嗎你確定嗎"},{"start":118.851,"end":143.322,"text":"你確定嗎我們教育部沒有在禁止書籍的這部電影對嘛 什麼東西啊我們剛剛講的是這本書啊好 老實說啦這本書被翻譯成20國語言也有電影啦好啦 所以只要有人檢舉就要禁少年維特的煩惱這部電影是不是電影也不是教育部管的對嘛 那你講的好像哇 所以怎麼樣短影音就是你管的嗎"},{"start":144.81,"end":165.044,"text":"也不是對嘛所以我想我這一點市長我覺得您的回應我很緊張但是我先給您肯定您剛剛有一句話我很認同抖音 短音能不能禁不能禁嘛禁不了嘛用禁止來限制青少年去理解這個世界是完全無效的"},{"start":165.484,"end":183.404,"text":"作為一個負責任的大人我們要教導他認知訊息哪個不能聽 哪個不能看用這種方法去限制是可恥的那我們看到教育部呢你們是怎麼樣說什麼行動應用APP行動應用APP是你們管的嗎"},{"start":185.071,"end":204.962,"text":"是你們管的嗎那沒關係那我們還看到這速發部還講什麼很危險老實說啦真的是不要把目標拿來亂槍打鳥啦這些大的APP的平台都有對資安做管理不要見紅就閃好像很害怕"},{"start":206.149,"end":233.467,"text":"事實上我們要看其實一個曾經發文要挺戒嚴的執政黨被罵爆以後現在要妄想透過限制跟禁止下載APP來阻止學生獲得多元的訊息真的是民眾會合理懷疑這個政府是不是就是挺戒嚴但是現在怎麼樣只能做不能說又要讓校園裡面有這種戒嚴的感受跟恐怖為什麼"},{"start":234.991,"end":249.656,"text":"我報告次長啊這件事情我們真的是非常難過也非常憤怒啊你們還有可能啊不只要控制學生的思想認知還要控制學生的限制學生的人生自由啊"},{"start":250.276,"end":276.414,"text":"近期教育部啊發文給各大學要求學校必須與學生赴中國大陸交流一個月前上平台登錄並於活動完成一個月後進行事後登錄回報活動概況是怎麼樣啊連系學會社團交流都包含在內這份公文我告訴你還有第二頁更扯"},{"start":277.932,"end":295.769,"text":"更扯 在右邊下面那個框框市長你自己看一下學校因強化自我檢核本部將不定時檢查填報情形列入行政紀錄以及強補助款之參據"},{"start":297.711,"end":318.951,"text":"哪一個法條哪一個法條讓你們這樣做的請教次長教育部要求學生赴大陸交流必須自我檢核要求學校通報參考赴陸的行程法源依據是什麼你現在就回答學生喔學生喔"},{"start":321.769,"end":341.124,"text":"首先第一個我們不是要求學生填報我們是要求的是學校來填報而不是學生市長你仔細看清楚喔社團也算喔阿什麼樣學生去學生不用跟學校講喔那學校填報學生不用寫東西學校是怎麼填報搞清楚喔"},{"start":349.145,"end":370.023,"text":"知不知道市長你們的教育部在做什麼事情啊還要回報活動概況系學會社團交流都在內就是這樣啊報告委員我們這個規定的話是因為在過去的話我問的是法源我不要問你什麼需求"},{"start":371.516,"end":395.181,"text":"法源依據是什麼政府要不要依法行政 法源當然要 我們那個自我檢核表的話它上面的一些項目的話第一個規定的話 不好意思我問您的是法源依據是什麼我們也跟你要自我檢核表裡面不給啊你現在要不要提出來給本席你不用花時間在這邊唸啊"},{"start":397.383,"end":425.405,"text":"我們依據那個兩岸關係條例33條還有33之一裡面有提到學生要自我檢核嗎裡面有提到學生要填表嗎我報告 市長您看清楚學校辦理學生附入交流活動學生參加附入交流活動以及學校協助公關應落實至平台填報你有主持嗎你有說學校填嗎學校叫學生填學生讓學校來填這有什麼差別嗎"},{"start":426.863,"end":451.25,"text":"學生又不是公務人員 校方有什麼義務要通報學生賦錄的行程啊學生有什麼義務要進行自我檢核啊這不是綠色恐怖 什麼是綠色恐怖還是說教育部要推給陸委會 已經在推了嘛還是陸委會又來我們教育部就照轉啊現在教育部到底是教育部還是陸委會的下級機關啊 講清楚好不好"},{"start":452.683,"end":474.292,"text":"說實在我再強調我們不會要求學生填寫我們是希望提醒學生學校去有沒有在那些表格裡面有沒有違反到我們兩岸人民條例的三十三條跟三十五條的規定我們是提醒有沒有自我檢核提醒自我檢核就不叫自我檢核啦是這個意思市長"},{"start":474.992,"end":485.594,"text":"我們是理工背井的 不要玩文字遊戲啊我直接就告訴你啊 為什麼我們在此如此憤怒我是代表學校 代表學生有學生向本席辦公室反映"},{"start":486.761,"end":513.481,"text":"直接就被要求啊進行自我檢核啊學生說不清楚如何向教育部通報大家都很困擾所以這個繁瑣的行政流程是由各系辦公室負責學生向系上說明行程規劃再由系辦公室處理後續通報行程這跟學生無關嗎這跟學校無關嗎這只是提醒嗎"},{"start":514.813,"end":537.63,"text":"哇 這強調 如果學生個案上面有困擾我們國際司一定會提供協助這什麼又是個案 這是公文發到全部的學校啊是的 如果各級學校 如果大學有意見學校有意見 來 個別找教育部這不是審查 什麼是審查啊這不是檢核 什麼是檢核啊我們並沒有審查 我們也沒有阻止他們不過去"},{"start":539.853,"end":562.758,"text":"那就看哪一個學校要來找教一步啦是不是這個意思剛剛就這個意思嘛有意見的人來找我們這不是檢核這是什麼通案就是通案我們在立法院問的是通案你們弄了一個根本沒有法源依據的東西然後叫什麼有意見的學校來找我們有意見的個案學生來找我們"},{"start":563.897,"end":592.009,"text":"這什麼年代啊我們現在在2025年啊不要想要去對這種什麼思想審查一紙公文大學雞飛狗跳教育部什麼時候才能做有點幫助的事檢核表能不能給我們我們要了不願意給啊怎麼回事啊我們有沒有要過嘛我們有沒有要過有嘛搞不清楚了我們要過你們不給"},{"start":593.365,"end":610.252,"text":"提出來 今天會後就提出來好嗎好的 那次長我們之前就已經提過了有很多老師是不需要去提出這個機關同意的你們也去做這些事情整體來講我覺得真的會讓人家"},{"start":611.587,"end":632.409,"text":"有一種疑惑啦 到底你們教育部是在搞教育還是在搞大陸交流的限制啊 市長我先對您深感遺憾 我剛剛真的是替學生學校我捍衛學生的自由 這一點我們一定是要盡力的您是不是盡力 捍衛學生的自由 您是不是盡力"},{"start":633.448,"end":646.188,"text":"會的對嘛所以我希望您可以理解我們的憤怒與遺憾教育部認為我國的大學生會因為短短幾天的互動就愉悅堅守的原則讓國家失去尊嚴會有這種事嗎"},{"start":648.806,"end":677.788,"text":"如果沒有 我們有自信為什麼要害怕學生跟對岸自由來往市長 本席堅信自由的土壤才能孕育出豐富的文化最近有一個文化逆襲的案例就是本院的王世堅委員啊這個變成對岸最紅的迷因啊人人開口都是匆匆容容 有刃有餘啊本席認為應該更加強這樣的交流最後一定是我們的文化在對岸發揚光大市長 您對台灣的教育有沒有信心"},{"start":678.547,"end":707.836,"text":"有的有信心我們教育部拿出應有的態度勇敢的告訴陸委會兩岸的學術交流往來不要被綁手綁腳對大家有信心好不好那接下來我其實還有一點時間我想因為您是理工背景的對您深有期待跟您關心一下數位平權的議題聯合報這個進行大學生使用AI習慣的專題報導這個一二三類組的學生八成以上認為使用AI工具能提升學習效率"},{"start":708.556,"end":725.709,"text":"那學生常在使用上使用AI輔助啊那次長您來自電機系嘛這個二類組的科系次長平常有沒有在用AI工具啊有那都使用哪些AI工具CheckGPT那之前在課堂上會鼓勵學生使用AI工具"},{"start":726.755,"end":743.454,"text":"并不鼓励并不鼓励那这些学生都违反了老师的规则了吗没有好 没关系我们尊重每一位老师的想法但是根据联合报的调查就是八成以上在用那八成以上这些学生使用呢您用的就是最主流的CHAT GPT 95.3%"},{"start":745.356,"end":764.297,"text":"我也在用我最近那個AI實習生寶博也串了OpenAI啦那其次Gemini佔了48%另外Microsoft CopilotCanva和Notebook都有市長您CheckGPT有付費嗎沒有那您知道CheckGPT目前的定價多少嗎"},{"start":766.206,"end":782.579,"text":"不好意思這個主席我暫一點時間因為這很重要這學生的學藝我覺得一個月20塊美金吧很好PLUS方案一個月20塊美金您知道有沒有更貴的有有嗎有有完整功能的PRO方案啊200塊美金一個月告訴市長這還不是最貴的"},{"start":783.576,"end":794.659,"text":"這還不是最貴的Gemini的Google AI Ultra最近有新版確實評價不錯但我們不做任何推薦一個月的訂閱費是台幣8150塊學生常用的Canva個人訂閱年費3600塊"},{"start":799.861,"end":824.573,"text":"次長前面的調查你也看到了只要訂閱一種以上的AI工具學生都在用每個月光是AI的支出隨便超過一千塊因此多數的學生可能會使用免費版我想跟次長一樣但是家境好的學生可能訂閱一個以上的AI工具完整版進階版Plus版Pro版Expert版Enterprise版"},{"start":825.473,"end":847.472,"text":"造成數位落差數位的不平等目前各部會我們也是支持我們也真的是給予肯定文化部發文化幣給青年事後調查確定能夠促進青少年接觸藝文產業達到文化平權本席要在此呼籲教育部您又是理工方面的專業您應該知道數位平權科技很重要"},{"start":847.992,"end":849.592,"text":"具體做法可不可以研議一下"},{"start":867.89,"end":884.48,"text":"如果是屬於全民使用就不在我們教育部的權責我們講青少年啦教育部管的 學校的啦我們會去研議具體說法請教育部邀請各部會討論後兩個月內書面報告提供的本席可以嗎"},{"start":886.052,"end":915.088,"text":"可以好 謝謝次長我想今天次長的答覆我們還是要勤勉捍衛教育的專業師生的尊嚴與自由那多位教育議題發生不要把時間資源浪費在政治操作去畫紅線阻礙學術交流我們民主要有自信我們的個人的自主的權利也要受到保護應該多多針對教育有關的政策我們剛剛就給你一個很好的題目希望教育部放眼全球不要把目光只集中在對岸好嗎"},{"start":916.363,"end":919.729,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝市長好 謝謝葛如"}]}},{"id":"165668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9138c816088669017733be06babd869ba0a43079a982cb9ebe09b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:11:03 - 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今年的4月16你們把這個基準表你們做了修正你們用一個黨證字114001476號函把這個基準表做了修正你們經過你們這次修正之後"},{"start":98.119,"end":114.825,"text":"現在目前的這個判處死刑的這個評議部現在的保存年限是多久因為原來是10年嘛那我們特別在備註欄有講到是如果刑法判處死刑的那個評議部要永久保存要永久保存 也就是說"},{"start":115.831,"end":133.833,"text":"今天假設沒有修法但是按照你們的這個基準這個規則事實上從現在開始判處死刑的這個評議部就應該要依照你們的規定就要永久保存了對不對是是是好 謝謝 謝謝主席我們先請那個司法院好 請王副秘書長"},{"start":142.727,"end":149.296,"text":"剛才我們跟檔案局去了解其實按照現在我們用這個"},{"start":150.987,"end":172.776,"text":"以這個國發會他的這個檔案管理局他的這個機關共通性檔案的保存年限基準依這個行政規則事實上現在的這個判決實行的評議部現在是必須要永久保存所以你們我看你們的書面資料你們認為依照這個就夠了我們這個法院組織法第106條其實"},{"start":177.797,"end":196.678,"text":"你們沒有說不應該修正 你們說請大院再予以斟酌意思是說拜託你們考慮一下 應該是不用訂 是不是這個意思因為從結果上來看的話 目前不修的話也是達到相同的行政目的"},{"start":197.319,"end":221.333,"text":"所以如果我們修 你們反對嗎也不反對 尊重立法院的職權看起來是好像沒什麼差別但是其實是有差別的啦如果真的沒有永久保存在法律上面你的救濟的方式就不一樣了你違反一個行政規則跟違反"},{"start":226.056,"end":252.929,"text":"違反這個法院組織法的規定那個是救濟的方式是完全不一樣對不對所以這個部分我個人是其實是不反對這個修法我認為說雖然說現在已經有這個這樣的這個檔案局的規定但是我認為說這樣修法事實上也是一種保障這個部分不曉得這個副名長競表同意OK 好"},{"start":254.4,"end":273.207,"text":"那這個法院組長就比較單純那接下來 副院長請回主席在講電話我們這時間可以稍微幫我暫停一下主席 不好意思那我現在副院長請回我請法務部 請次長請法務部委員好"},{"start":278.471,"end":297.379,"text":"次長好接下來這一條我們今天總共我看有三個法律條文有一個實施辦法這三個法律條文裡面我個人對於法院組織法第83條的這個條文修正這部分我個人認為最嚴重最大條這個事關重大所以我今天就請這個次長上來"},{"start":305.368,"end":326.1,"text":"這個 按照現行條文 我看到今天的修正案法院組織法第83條的修正條文 修正案它跟現行的條文 大概最大的有兩個差異第一個就是起訴書公布的時間點原本現行的規定是在第一審裁判書公開之後"},{"start":327.625,"end":352.352,"text":"才公開嘛那按照這個修正條文是在偵查終結後就公開也就是說在偵查終結你偵查終結之後審判還沒有開始還沒開始審判你就要先公開這個起訴書的內容這是第一個很大的差異第二個就是所謂不起訴處分不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書"},{"start":354.733,"end":370.542,"text":"依照目前規定是不用公開現在這個修正案變成不起訴署分書跟緩起訴署分書也要公開 對不對我覺得這兩件事情知識體大知識體大 這個值得我們真的要好好的來考慮跟討論"},{"start":373.345,"end":396.152,"text":"首先就是起訴書的起訴時點的部分這個部分這個是不是先請次長表示一下如果我們起訴書公布起訴書的這個時點從現在事實上在一審裁判這個一審的裁判書公開之後才公開那如果依照修正如果我們萬一立法院我們司法委員會通過這個法律修正把它提早到偵查終結那會有什麼影響"},{"start":396.912,"end":424.542,"text":"各位報告那這個現行法他定在一審裁判後才公開起訴書其實他也是一個法律權衡後的結果啦其實按照無罪推定理論上確定前都應該是無罪推定都不應該公開但是涉及到人民知的權利跟資訊公開所以當時現行法他當時做一個權衡法律的權衡所以他定在經過法院的審理相關事實已經經過一個公開審理程序之後法院也下了判決之後我們起訴書才"},{"start":425.362,"end":436.957,"text":"跟著公開將來權衡民眾知的權利知性公開跟無罪推定原則相互的平衡所以我們認為我們修法把他提早到審判前會有什麼樣的影響如果沒有影響有什麼關係就修吧"},{"start":441.283,"end":464.377,"text":"因為就是說等於起訴還沒有經過一個審理的程序就已經把他的犯罪事實揭露了嘛不是犯罪事實是我們檢察官檢察機關所認定的犯罪事實他不是最終的最後可能無罪所以他可能是違反無罪推定原則的他可能是無罪啊這審判結果是無罪但是我在整個起訴書你們檢察官認為你們的證據就掌握你們覺得可以"},{"start":466.678,"end":487.826,"text":"但是最後審判是無罪所以現行法的83條第三項做這樣子權衡的規定是有它的道理這個就第一個當然是這個會違反這個所謂無罪推定原則這個是你剛剛講的嘛除了無罪推定原則以外這個還有更嚴重的啦這是對於發現真實其實它是有影響的"},{"start":488.823,"end":506.863,"text":"就是現在有一些犯罪我現在偵查終結起訴並不是整個案件全部都偵查完畢了他可能是這個部分尤其是現在這種組織化這個組織化複雜的這種犯罪當中有的我是這個部分我先偵查先偵查終結先做一部分就一部分的事實跟這個當事人先進行起訴"},{"start":510.467,"end":527.883,"text":"其實案件還在繼續進行但是你如果在這個時候就把這個起訴書公開包括你所有偵查內容你掌握的證據證人包括你的所有這些過程事實上就公開了你可能還有同案這個相關案件仍然在偵查當中會影響到這個發現真實的機會對不對對 這點我們完全贊同"},{"start":533.547,"end":560.585,"text":"更嚴重的 我們現在有國民法官的審判會造成預斷的問題對啦 這個國民法官案件你這個起訴書這樣公開預斷這就是為什麼所謂起訴書一本起訴書一本主義就是避免國民法官預斷避免他預斷 但是我們現在如果說我們修法 法院主法修法之後你只要偵查中檢起訴書就必須公開那所有這些國民法官他在進入審判程序的時候他就已經有所預斷了 對不對"},{"start":563.021,"end":586.728,"text":"是不是這樣 沒有錯 對所以我認為說這個修法要審慎這個要把看起來只是一個時間點的提早就是把起訴書從一審判決一審判決起訴書公開以後才公開提早到審查終結就公開我認為這個影響事關重大這部分我覺得說我們法務部要很清楚的論述讓這個本委員會的委員來了解這第一個 謝謝委員"},{"start":587.608,"end":611.042,"text":"第二個我認為是更嚴重的就是所謂不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書的公開這個不起訴處分受不起訴處分的意思當然是說我們現在經過這個檢察官偵查之後認為現在掌握的證據不足以證明你為犯罪但是事實上在法律上面你就是無罪的人你就是一個無罪的人不是嗎所以我才不起訴結果一個"},{"start":614.209,"end":625.623,"text":"我偵查過程中 可能針對你的交友狀況 針對你的財務 針對你的很多的隱私 經過調查但是調查結果 欸 你是不用起訴的結果把這些東西全部公開"},{"start":626.977,"end":650.334,"text":"公開說所以我不起訴你但是所有的這些我的這個過程本來我最後我是無辜的人啊我是無辜的人所以我受不起訴處分但這整個過程調查過程中的這些證據這些你的交友關係你的財務流向你的金流都在不起訴書裡面被公開那為什麼無辜的人要受到這樣子的待遇"},{"start":651.537,"end":680.073,"text":"這是第一個啦第二個是所謂還起訴的處分還起訴的處分它的設計它原本也就是說是有利於你復歸啦所謂復歸就是說你的這個橫著按照這個刑事重法253條之二你這個檢察官你按照刑法57條的刑的酌量你這些條件還有甚至是公共利益的考量所以予以你還起訴就是希望你能夠有一個自新自新跟復歸的一個機會"},{"start":682.23,"end":703.75,"text":"但是如果你已經我這個檢察官我經過這諸多的考量這個按照刑法第57條這些刑的佐量跟這個社會公共利益之後我認為應該給你還起訴但是我又把你的這個我整個偵查過程的這個還起訴書把你公開 把它公開讓所有人知道"},{"start":704.631,"end":722.1,"text":"那這個對於你的戶規跟你的我不曉得他這樣子公開他的在促進什麼樣的法義他在這個是不是請市長講一下這點也是市長報告提的啦如果在這個偵查終結就公開被告的緩起訴處分書的話"},{"start":723.621,"end":749.704,"text":"其實真正的會跟我們緩起訴處分書緩起訴處分這項訴訟制度所制定的立法目的是相違背的緩起訴他現在雖然犯罪了但檢察官基於公益上的考量跟個人的社會富貴的考量特別預防的考量所以這個考量所以給他緩起訴其實是為了他再社會化一個轉向政策如果我們這個時候再把他的相關的各自相關的事實公開其實是不利於這個立法目的的達成"},{"start":751.386,"end":769.503,"text":"這部分我們是完全贊同剛剛委員所提的這些不起訴書 緩起訴書裡面他可能會跟當事人 甚至當事人以外的相關人員一些交友 家庭 職場 財務 健康 醫療 甚至性傾向等等這些東西可能都在不起訴書 緩起訴書中被揭露這個被揭露"},{"start":775.014,"end":789.179,"text":"你這樣等於說不管是不起訴還是還起訴不起訴還是還起訴都是說我們認定你是一個不需要經過審判的人不需要接受審判的人結果你一個不需要接受審判的人因為這樣的公開而使你接受了輿論的審判"},{"start":790.956,"end":817.983,"text":"這是我們最擔心的啦所以我認為說這個制度的設計真的要三思你們在整個整個這個我們未來進入真正的這個條件討論的時候我希望法務部能夠把這些這些疑慮跟這個這個社會法益的這些相關的這些考量能夠跟我們本會委員說明清楚好不好好 謝謝委員那當然另外還有這個憲法訴訟法這個法庭直播這個我就未來在主條討論的時候我們再來討論好了以上 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165667","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165667","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91371baeca421aeec83558ea7a01fa7587943079a982cb9ebe0a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:09:15 - 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讓一般人民知道就有可能你使用的這些中置的AI的話有可能會產生裡面的包括隱私的問題甚至你的個資被洩漏"},{"start":205.569,"end":228.069,"text":"被收集甚至於你的使用權限被逾越了但甚至有可能你會被取得更多不應該被取得一些資訊因為它並不是一個安全的一個狀況這個部分我希望書發部要定期的發布定期的提醒因為唯有不斷的提醒的時候所有的企業所有的國人才會更謹慎小心使用這些那我再次請問一下那你們會認為會建議"},{"start":230.991,"end":249.218,"text":"國人來使用這些的生成式AMR中國這些生成式AMR以速發部的立場當然會認為說這是有一些疑慮的但是對於實際上業界他們因為應用場景的不一樣其實狀況可能會不太一樣"},{"start":249.978,"end":273.386,"text":"那我会认为说比如说是在教育领域可能就是完全必须要完全避免因为使用者的对象也比较就是可能比较没有判断力那但是在某一些产业的应用场景它可能不涉及这些价值判断那另外它可能不是用这一种网路上或是APP的模型而是用开源模型的状况底下呢"},{"start":274.507,"end":287.722,"text":"業界他可能會在他們需要的這個成本效益的考量底下他們會去做他們得要自己去做判斷我希望市長剛剛講這些東西因為因應不同的有不同的需要特別在教育系統他有可能被"},{"start":288.763,"end":310.471,"text":"甚至作戰 甚至洗腦的話 那對於會產生影響那類似像這樣的 當然就有的企業上是不一樣我希望美季的部分 至少速發布能不能定期的就你們所掌握到的資訊發布給國人跟企業知道好不好 就是再不斷的提醒因為這樣的事情 當我們在第一線 面臨到第一線的這個這些威脅的時候 甚至於整個滲透的時候 那"},{"start":311.071,"end":332.99,"text":"政府部門也必須扮演一個很重要的角色至少在公部門當然不能用但是在民間的部分在國人部門要不斷地示警他們讓他們知道這件事情可能嚴重而不是等到了事情發生了以後然後他們的重要的個資被洩漏甚至於他們被整個所有的一些被掌控了之後然後才發現政府為什麼從來都沒有提醒過我們"},{"start":333.41,"end":362.166,"text":"好不好 我希望美季能夠定期來提供就你們所掌握到的資訊提供給7N國人那再來我請教一下其實世界各國其實都有注意到了這個中置AI的一些風險那有些甚至於是全面的禁止使用甚至於或者是提出包括像美國 德國 義大利 荷蘭他們對於這種中置的AI的這個有發出一些有的是禁用的 是避免使用的部分那台灣的態度呢我們的態度呢"},{"start":364.065,"end":371.419,"text":"我們會考慮未來朝向如果對於確實有產生很重大的治安危機 國安危機的部分會考慮有禁用的考量嗎"},{"start":372.445,"end":399.267,"text":"在某一些特定的狀況底下在法律授權的範圍內我覺得這是可以被考慮的好 我希望這個部分將來要審慎的思考進去然後就有些很明顯的它是具有的統戰任務或具有的認知作戰任務的它是很明確的那個部分其實應該因為我們是第一線我們是第一線的被攻擊被攻擊的對象的時候甚至於被滲透的對象的時候我們應該要有更強的防衛機制這個要不然其他世界民主國家覺得你台灣為什麼"},{"start":399.987,"end":415.829,"text":"對這一塊似乎沒有進行你該有的防禦當其他國家都在防禦的時候你卻沒有我們看到很多啦有些很明顯的包括他的這個政治立場甚至於他可能做出來這個台灣不存在啦或者是台灣屬於中國的一部分啦或者是"},{"start":416.571,"end":431.077,"text":"台灣不是一個國家啦或者是六四天安門這個字眼是不可以出現顯然他很多是具有很多的被政治篩選過的他只要你看到他要的東西而已他並不是全面的甚至於他會刻意去篩給你"},{"start":432.077,"end":448.997,"text":"他想要給你看到的東西我認為這個都是會影響到我們整體的整個運作的我希望甚至於更嚴重的是未來如果他滲透成功他甚至有可能發出網路的攻擊在關鍵的時刻他發動網路攻擊他掌握到你更多的一些資訊的這些的時候"},{"start":452.567,"end":470.755,"text":"輕的是發動攻擊戰抹黑戰重則直接進行更大的網路性的攻擊而這個都是我們應該在速發部在政府部門要必須要做的防衛機制我希望這一塊未來都要不斷把它訂定出來甚至於提醒國人注意我們會更積極在就是用所有的資源去"},{"start":471.275,"end":490.325,"text":"我希望這件事情一方面我們在發展我們的AI但是一方面我們也要去保護我們自己的這個國家的安全好不好這個我希望每季能夠看到你們有你們該提出來的一些東西出來我們再看一下中國政治AI的這個檢測你看這個這麼多的紅點全部都是不合格的項目所以我想這個你們"},{"start":491.405,"end":508.61,"text":"也是你們有所擁有的資料啦也是國安這邊有資料全部都是都是充滿了很多的問題所以我覺得以這樣的狀況來看是必須要很認真面對中置的這個AI的問題好不好我希望每季能夠看到你們的一些要求"},{"start":509.17,"end":525.35,"text":"好 再來我想一下因為台灣其實在我們AI的一些評比上面其實表現是中上的啦其實大家也都認為那我們很關鍵在於優勢在於我們的一些基礎建設或者整備等等都做得不錯但是我們的法令的部分跟我們相關的這些反倒是比較慢的"},{"start":525.911,"end":540.528,"text":"那包括我們的創新技術也有所一些退步那現在因為我們有一個人工智慧基本法現在也在院裡面要審這些部分如果我先問一下次長預定什麼時候可以來通過你們期待什麼時候通過"},{"start":542.335,"end":571.859,"text":"我希望委員支持也能夠盡快盡快嘛對不對現在已經在月裡了我們也希望朝野也支持這個對於整個未來人工智慧基本法它的發展重要特別現在是全世界都在發展AI的時候這是一個很重要的法那我們希望盡快通過那同時間我也希望通過之後剛剛幾個重要的那些的我也希望未來軟硬體的部分都能夠更持續來加大讓我們的在AI這一塊是有更強的一個國力的那現在普遍大家也能看好台灣是具有這樣的能量的"},{"start":572.5,"end":578.474,"text":"那我们希望事务发布跟各部会继续加油希望我们台湾在这一块能有更好的一个成果好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91349ab382b9dbbb0d2f94607883e6102ae43079a982cb9ebe0083d1f73e27fc1505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:58:28 - 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猜一下市長你猜一下"},{"start":147.864,"end":164.369,"text":"應該數萬件吧昨天的萃我查了六千四百六十六件這個就是警政署的打炸儀錶板啊結果你弄一個小紅書專區說他炸變嚴重啊四百二十三件結果萃六千四百六十六件沒專區"},{"start":166.552,"end":192.363,"text":"我覺得教育部那個標準相當奇怪相當奇怪所以如果你是要以詐騙假訊息這種角度禁止或者是提供試讀能力的話那我不知道這個只針對小紅書或者是抖音是不是政治考量啊並沒有我們真的沒有那為什麼你看以詐騙來講的話光一天一天就六千四百六六件你卻沒有成立專區"},{"start":193.891,"end":205.209,"text":"我們事後會專程...事後?所以沒有來質詢就沒有?就很奇怪嘛這個標準很怪嘛很怪嘛然後第二個喔"},{"start":206.201,"end":231.056,"text":"你剛剛是講說因為會有治安問題嘛所以特別要禁抖音跟小紅書那我問一下主要是因為抖音跟小紅書是中國大陸那邊的嘛對吧覺得會有治安問題嘛那如果以後這兩家社群忽然間不屬於中國大陸的話那就不禁了嗎基本上是的所以因為現在Ttalk確定會變美國抖音"},{"start":232.301,"end":255.196,"text":"所以只要在TikTok變成美國抖音的那一刻TikTok就解禁了教育部的立場是這樣我們的立場是依據我們今年九月通過的治安法上面是說不能裝置或錄製中國大陸製的資通訊所以沒關係我就確認一下嘛所以這個抖音變美國抖音就解禁"},{"start":256.934,"end":284.277,"text":"所以換句話說今天教育部去禁抖音跟小紅書其實你們比較重視的是治安的問題啦對於你們報告裡面寫一大堆什麼假消息啊詐騙啊什麼那個小朋友看了訊息之後看了訊息會進入一個兔子洞然後因為社群會不斷推播他有興趣的東西他會一直看下去嘛其實這個東西在所有的社群都是這樣這是演算法的問題所以你們比較重視的治安但至於說其他部分主要是要透過試讀來解決"},{"start":286.438,"end":315.302,"text":"我事實上還根據兒少法我們也在乎他有沒有一些內容違反到法律是不禁止的啦我說法律禁止都不行嘛法律禁止都不行我是說在法律禁止之外你們比如針對成癮或者是其他的部分你們是透過試讀嗎叫他們不要一直看嘛沒有那個OK OK那除了社群之外現在教育部留著NCC可不可以上來一下NCC也上來一下"},{"start":317.548,"end":342.961,"text":"這個我認為啦你們如果要推廣嗜讀現在嗜讀其實社群只是一個部分啦電視新聞還有各種網 廣告都一樣我來跟NCE跟教育部請教一下這是在前一段時間網路上非常紅的一個影片那時候宣傳罷免這個爸爸叫小朋友趕快去做功課小朋友說國家亂七八糟我讀書有什麼用啊"},{"start":344.203,"end":365.826,"text":"那時候讓大家發現文革時代的那種思想出來了天大地大沒有毛主席大讀書算什麼救國才重要所以要搞罷免請問一下站在教育部的立場次長你贊同這樣的觀點嗎就是爸爸叫小朋友讀書然後小朋友說讀什麼書啊我要去搞罷免啊你站教育的角度你贊成這樣的觀點嗎"},{"start":366.843,"end":382.425,"text":"我教育的人 我是教育的人我不對這件事情有個人的comment不是 我問你贊不贊成不comment 你在質詢欸你來背詢欸 可以不comment喔這個你怕得罪那些罷免方喔"},{"start":383.9,"end":412.279,"text":"不是啦 這個跟教學無關學校老師在叫學生讀書學生說我不要做功課了因為我要有政治活動我要去從事政治活動各位有沒有老師要從事任何的政治活動我們尊重個人的行為所以教育部連說家長叫小朋友做功課小朋友說我不要做功課 我不要讀書了國家亂七八糟 念書也沒有教育部都覺得OK"},{"start":413.48,"end":435.957,"text":"站在教育部次長的角度覺得這樣是OK的我尊重教育部啦這就是我們的教育部嘛就是大家可受公平嘛因為這是你的價值觀嘛這是你的價值觀這是你的價值觀你的價值觀就覺得這樣的事情你是可以允許的嘛沒有關係啦我不知道為什麼你這麼害怕得罪罷免方啦如果是我我就會覺得可以這樣子嗎做出超級錯誤的示範"},{"start":437.498,"end":459.465,"text":"如果一百個小朋友裡面大家全部出來 爸媽叫小朋友做功課小朋友都說 不要啦 我有什麼事情啦比做功課還重要啦或什麼 我要去搞罷免啦你覺得OK的 次長是覺得OK的這種示範作用 次長是覺得OK的這就是我們的教育部啦我沒有說OK啊那你覺得可不可以我沒有說OK你覺得沒有不OK 也沒有覺得OK"},{"start":460.487,"end":483.791,"text":"你只是不敢表達意見市長啊你是教育部欸如果你今天是民進黨發言人的話你不表達意見我沒有意見啦你是教育部教育部面對這樣的事情你都可以說我沒有意見那你在那邊講什麼嗜讀啦如果牽涉到所有價值判斷都在講說我沒意見那你幹嘛講嗜讀你就說尊重大家的判斷就好了啊"},{"start":484.938,"end":511.315,"text":"沒有 我還是承諾這跟教學有沒有關係如果與教學學習無關的那我們就不應該請問家庭教育跟教學有沒有關係難道老師在學校教學生不希望家長也可以配合嗎做功課 如果說小朋友不做功課不希望教小朋友把功課做好嗎這怎麼會跟教育沒關係不要越講越誇張啦再來接下來 我來問一下這個NCC啦跟教育文化委員會有關的"},{"start":512.691,"end":531.588,"text":"我們 我相信召委雖然跟我不同黨啦但是大家很清楚啦有的時候有一些委員因為選區有一些學校可能設備真的很不OK會排考察去看一下那個選區的學校找教育部官員去了解一下這個在我們委員會應該很正常吧民進黨的召委也有幫民進黨的立委排過"},{"start":532.759,"end":551.777,"text":"很正常吧結果有名嘴或節目主持人在講說怎麼會去考察呢那個時候我去國中考察結果他說怎麼可能會我去國小考察怎麼會去國小呢要也是去國中啊然後這個講一大堆然後還有名嘴繼續講說什麼這個下一頁"},{"start":556.274,"end":582.339,"text":"他說很掉漆啊去什麼地方單位都沒來明明地方縣市教育局都有來但是直接在電視上說沒來然後說好奇怪喔如果真的是考察的話國民黨議員怎麼都沒來我問一下那個 趙偉趙偉我可以問一下我們委員會的主秘嗎主秘上次我們有去現場有沒有地方的官員有沒有"},{"start":584.09,"end":606.588,"text":"有吧 詢問一下 會議詢問一下 有沒有我記得應該有啊有嘛 那他說沒有議員我們委員會考察會通知議員嗎這個不會啊不會通知嘛然後他說考察小學都是議員層級做的事情那所以我們教育文化委員會一堆委員去考察小學大家都在做議員喔"},{"start":609.638,"end":633.375,"text":"這擺明是假消息啊擺明假消息那請問一下祖密這個要怎麼試讀啊我看過那個教育部的報告他講說我們要讓小朋友知道他們為什麼要這樣子報導為什麼要做這件事情那我不知道這一家媒體綠媒就用假消息他是為什麼要做這些假消息啊祖密"},{"start":635.049,"end":657.094,"text":"就是這麼明顯的事情不求證那這個在NCC的角度是要怎麼處理啊我們要兩個嘛一個是事後開罰一個是事前預防然後再來針對小朋友做試讀嘛事前預防大概沒辦法做沒有辦法那你要不要跟教育部討論一下因為我們覺得如果有些社群媒體委員你剛才在說的是那個假消息這件事情因為是那個"},{"start":658.234,"end":674.515,"text":"就是違反事實查證的這個義務我們今天因為我們現在針對小朋友嘛那個市長市長來一下小朋友看到這個報導啊會覺得對一個立委怎麼來學校幫助我們爭取預算呢這不是議員該做的事嗎"},{"start":676.133,"end":696.91,"text":"然後就開始覺得好像下次有立法委員去考察的時候呢小朋友就用很異樣眼光欸你來幹嘛其實立委去都是幫忙爭取預算嘛沒錯吧結果他就說你來幹嘛完全錯誤的觀念那這個部分要不要試讀加強試讀一下所以我們希望我們的老師能引導同學共同討論"},{"start":697.651,"end":720.057,"text":"共同討論是不是對 是的那你是不是覺得這個試讀也很重要有一些特定媒體做特定的假消息政治攻擊是的是的後面很多案例啦這個跟我個人有關的去投票當天說我姍姍來遲請問一下祖密投票時間是幾點到幾點投票你投票時間是幾點到幾點"},{"start":723.94,"end":750.854,"text":"8點到4點,你沒有投過票喔?8點到4點嘛,你是不是什麼時候去投都可以?10點半去,然後當天投票說直接說遲到,三三來遲這樣子有沒有違反什麼NCC的原則?我們現在就是未報告27條有所謂的違反事實查證違反事實查證,然後也沒辦法事先預防嘛因為這個就直播,就播出去了啊"},{"start":752.816,"end":762.865,"text":"市長是不是也要加強一下試讀特定媒體的試讀好 再來後面還有啦這個民進黨立委吳佩奕啊說我潑他水啊直接造謠啊後來"},{"start":765.939,"end":793.718,"text":"後來直接另外一個三立的電視台把畫面還原我沒有潑他水結果有一家媒體他覺得這樣子攻擊不到我打電話給我偷錄音偷錄音之後然後說我說是另外一個立委潑的水偷錄音主委你問一下記者偷錄音這個有沒有違反什麼還是沒有如果假設是那個在公開場合的話大概沒有不是公開打電話"},{"start":795.831,"end":817.61,"text":"打電話的話目前這塊是你打電話沒有規範但是有沒有需要所以新聞記者是可以隨便打給人家就就沒有採訪就直接偷錄音的可以然後偷錄音之後還自己亂講那個要跟不同層次來談一個是是不是有刑事責任跟我現在講一下因為趙偉站起來很久我也不好意思"},{"start":818.939,"end":847.982,"text":"今天一連串下來大家在討論的是怎麼樣不要讓小朋友接受到錯誤訊息假訊息影響到他獨立判斷精神所以我們要識讀嘛識讀就是要了解這個媒體他為什麼有什麼動機要這樣子做然後真相是如何嘛各方面要破除虛妄了解真相嘛獨立判斷獨立思考不要被影響嘛這是識讀主要的目的嘛社群媒體可能會有假消息可能會有詐騙可能會有治安問題同樣的主流新聞媒體假消息也一大堆啦"},{"start":849.195,"end":855.671,"text":"教育部不用重視嗎不用讓小朋友了解為什麼特地媒體老是喜歡散發跟政治有關的假消息"},{"start":856.704,"end":886.033,"text":"然後第二個事後防閉事後防閉教育部現在的做法是屏蔽校園網路那NCC的做法是事後裁罰你們是這樣嘛但你們有事先的機制嗎現在這些新聞自律委員會都不用討論都連偷錄音然後亂講假消息不用查證新聞他們都沒有自律委員會嗎NCC目前啊他們各個新聞台其實都有自律委員會啊那為什麼還會這樣子然後NCC跟好像都不存在一樣"},{"start":887.546,"end":902.218,"text":"前一段時間假消息一大堆都不存在一樣NCE都不存在一樣只要有任何的檢舉我們都會依照程序來處理啊所以你們就是有人檢舉你們才會處理嘛是但是假消息沒人檢舉就讓他在台灣社會散佈嘛"},{"start":903.53,"end":930.981,"text":"那如果是按照你這種消息態度教育部也不用媒體試讀了啦所以我們包括事先防弊還有閱聽人自己的試讀以及事後的裁罰都要併重嘛媒體試讀NCC加油好不好好 謝謝然後教育部針對新聞做那麼多假消息也希望你排同樣重要的試讀的課程可以嗎我們以後努力以後努力那現在不努力喔謝謝"},{"start":934.426,"end":936.917,"text":"谢谢谢谢议员支援执行官员请回座"}]}},{"id":"165716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913a162592d34069a4b3be06babd869ba0a8603fab3ff6def27b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:36:30 - 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謝謝主席是不是請我們王副秘書長還有這個次長請王副秘書長還有次長委員好副秘 早安 午安"},{"start":21.551,"end":31.327,"text":"因為我要諮詢的還沒開始聽到王委員剛才諮詢我突然想到加暴防治法第31條跟刑事訴訟法第114條兩個法的運用怎麼競合"},{"start":37.679,"end":63.368,"text":"你剛剛講的家暴防治法有得為羈押如有必要羈押得為羈押可是遇到刑事訴訟法114條如果他申請拒保三年以下的刑期他申請拒保一定要給他交保這個是霸王條款所以當31條的家暴防治法31條遇到刑事訴訟法的第114條怎麼競合"},{"start":67.384,"end":80.288,"text":"這是因為剛才聽到你們的質詢我特別問的如果有加爆法的狀況它又符合訴法114條的要件它還是不能夠擠壓還是有114條的適用"},{"start":84.566,"end":107.076,"text":"對啊 所以我跟你講真正的問題是卡在罷網條款是114條而我昨天在未還委員會就質詢過了這個治本的方法必須要把家暴防治法的這個違反保護違反家暴法的刑責要提高到5年以下才能夠解決刑事訴訟法114條的問題"},{"start":110.817,"end":137.987,"text":"而為什麼他必須要提高到五年以下是因為第一個家暴的這個犯罪人他已經是違了法律所禁止的事了第二次人家告訴你合法家暴保護令的時候是第二次告訴你而你還是無視於法律的存在你還繼續家暴所以這個普通傷害罪都五年以下了"},{"start":139.047,"end":156.536,"text":"這個違法一次違法兩次到第三次你還三年以下而三年以下會碰到刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法的這個三年以下如果被告申請拒保你們非給他交保不可不是嗎"},{"start":159.353,"end":174.067,"text":"原則上是 它如果單純違反交暴法是但是我們交暴法它常伴隨著其他附隨的犯罪我知道啦 其他犯罪它就不是三零下的犯罪我知道啦 但如果單純的呢單純的呢 現在我跟你講現在被押的剛才王委員質詢幾千件為什麼只有兩百多個被押因為那些人就是刑事訴訟法第114條裡面的但書的符合的"},{"start":182.856,"end":196.94,"text":"就是累犯有犯罪習慣等等的如果沒有的話其實是無法押的所以我再說一次土城當街殺人的信義計劃區馬上殺人的違反保護令罪馬上殺人的都是第一次其實要押完全不可能押不是檢察官的問題而已也不是法官的問題是我們法律的工具不夠的問題"},{"start":211.044,"end":214.846,"text":"責任在我們的法律出了問題好嗎好市長請回我不是要問你抱歉喔我今天不是要問這個題目我想我已經問三遍國民法官審判的事情了今天終於找了一個聽說找了一個業務懲判單位的法官來了"},{"start":232.174,"end":255.99,"text":"上個禮拜呢上個禮拜我問你副秘書長昨天我問刑事庭庭長我問說你舉個例子告訴我什麼是什麼樣的案件案情是符合國民法官法第六條第一項第四款所說的被告認罪了經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行國民參審的為適當的情形來"},{"start":262.074,"end":267.588,"text":"再說一次今天有貝爾來了上一個上個禮拜你旁邊那個法官姓什麼"},{"start":268.527,"end":298.227,"text":"我又忘了你上次的呂法官上來然後我說這個例外可以不行這個國民法官參審的例外你舉個例子給我聽他說有涉及到生命法益的案子上個禮拜副秘書長還有你的呂法官這樣子回答我根本就是在胡說八道我再問你的是不適用國民法官的情形他回答我的是"},{"start":299.647,"end":324.017,"text":"故意犯罪因而發生死亡結果要適用國民法官法這個是答非所問所以我再問一次你們昨天刑事廳廳長我再問他第二遍他回答我說被告認罪對於刑度及證據調查沒有意見檢察官及辯護人員都認為不用國民法官為適當"},{"start":326.158,"end":350.632,"text":"這種說法有回答跟沒有回答是一樣的所以在這種狀況裡面根本就是把條文的內容再簡單的講一遍而已你們司法院自己把條文定的這樣子看起來高深莫測沒有人可以解讀的出來你們到底是在講什麼你們法官也不用所以要你們舉例你們一個例子從上個禮拜的你到昨天的廳長"},{"start":352.253,"end":358.016,"text":"一個例子都舉不出來昨天給我的書面你們下班以前給了我一份書面好像六頁還是幾頁 六頁這個書面裡面也沒有回答出什麼條件 什麼例子是適用第六條第一項第四款的通通都沒有所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":378.174,"end":389.563,"text":"你可不可以再有備而來的第三次了質詢第三次了再講一次第六條第一項第四款所講的大概例子是什麼樣子可不可以再講一遍好來啊"},{"start":392.94,"end":417.148,"text":"報告委員 針對實務上有關第六條第一項第四款的相關適用情形因為我們現在有在做行銷評估其實只要轉軌的話都有進行相關裁定書的公告我們透過海撈所有的裁定書之後進行分析大致上分析出有兩種類型一種類型是說原則上被告認罪被害人的家屬這邊也同意給被告清醒的機會大家也同意轉軌這種情況下會所謂的大家也同意轉軌大家是誰"},{"start":422.029,"end":448.086,"text":"大家指的意思是說檢察官沒意見通常被告辯護人會申請要轉軌檢察官沒有意見這個情況下通常有可能會轉軌但是還有另外一種類型他們認為考量到是國民法官法基本上是要實現所謂的公共利益也就是說所謂的反映國民的法感情有量刑上的考量所以即便是在有這樣一個情形下他還是覺得說還是要讓國民法官來量刑你講的第二種狀況等於這個法條這一款可以廢掉"},{"start":452.729,"end":474.321,"text":"你講的這個狀況第四款可以廢掉了因為實務上分析兩種的運作情形是這樣子我叫你舉例子不是叫你說你去海撈一下你這個講的很像是說未來的試用基準要這樣子定不是不是這個委員因為我們這個部分是分析全國裁定的結果所以你的第一種是"},{"start":475.462,"end":500.998,"text":"是講可以不適用嘛 第二種是講不能適用嘛 因為目前就是有寬延兩種標準那因為抗告的情形比較少 所以說還不知道說這個高院這邊的對於這種一個適用基準的看法好啦 現在我不再講這個 由此可知從第一次上個禮拜 第二次昨天的廳長 到現在第三次你們到立法院來 叫你們舉一個例子你現在跟我講說你去海拉的所有的裁定以後發現有這幾種現象"},{"start":502.719,"end":531.342,"text":"但我現在問你說你舉一個你們定這個條文定成這個樣子你們想像的到底是什麼這個跟既有的已經做成才定的不一樣的兩件事喔你們定這個條文條文是你們定的然後呢你舉一個例子來跟我說你們認為要適用這一款的例子是什麼案情是什麼條件是才會符合你的條文所說的你們到現在第三次了講不出來"},{"start":532.583,"end":552.657,"text":"昨天你們給我的書面資料第四頁說成效評估委員會也建議你們要新增裁定不行國民法官的適用基準你連什麼樣的案子的類型可能是符合這第四款的你三次講不出來然後你們的成效評估委員會要你們訂基準我看你們也根本訂不出來因為連例子都說不出來能夠訂什麼基準"},{"start":561.619,"end":572.122,"text":"其實在這個國民法官法第六條立法理由就講得很清楚說原則上要對量刑沒有重大爭議只不過對於量刑有沒有重大爭議這件事情到底要到什麼樣的認定量刑有沒有爭議是要結果以後了要結果以後現在是在講還沒有審判以前我要申請不是用國民法官參審一個是審判之前就要符合資格可以不審判你現在回答我說量刑是審判以後"},{"start":589.367,"end":600.995,"text":"因為有關於這個量刑的部分當然是最後一個法院認定的結果可是在準備程序的時候呢在所謂的國民法官制度下呢有人上檢察官跟辯護人員檢察官會這邊會有進行求刑的動作所以會針對這個部分來進行相關的檢察官求刑跟量刑結果傷害國民要符合國民感情這是兩個程序不同的階段耶"},{"start":610.939,"end":629.136,"text":"然後現在講跟你講第六條第一項第四款舉一個例子告訴我你們想像的這個符合可以例外的條款的案子舉不出來到現在舉不出來然後屢屢到這裡來都胡說八道上一次的呂法官昨天的廳長好 算了我現在再問你喔"},{"start":630.057,"end":656.194,"text":"我舉一個例子 你們都沒有看見這個問題這麼嚴重嗎當初做改革的時候 國民法官法通過的時候我們以為是高舉著進步的這個高期大期可是這樣運作下來我就告訴你們 語重心長是要提醒你們真的有很多制度面執行下來有很多缺失和問題而你們都不願意承認 不願意看到那我再舉一個例子好了"},{"start":657.219,"end":680.638,"text":"前一陣子有一個發生 清潔隊員侵占電鍋被起訴貪污的罪這種案子的類型很多出犯的條文都是貪污治罪條例第四條第一項第一款侵占公有物罪實際上事實上侵占 清潔隊員侵占一個人沒有愛的電鍋但是法定刑期多少"},{"start":683.156,"end":693.115,"text":"10年以上 罪很重這些被告通通就認罪了這時候要不要適用國民法官法 明年起明年起是需要的"},{"start":694.745,"end":702.81,"text":"認罪了依照國民法官法第五條的規定原則上適用我現在在提醒你是適用國民法官法但是這些清潔隊隊員都是社會經濟的弱者他們不懂法律一犯罪就犯了十年以上有期徒刑的罪而且他們就會立刻認罪輿論甚至認為不應該起訴的"},{"start":720.259,"end":747.317,"text":"你要講國民感情國民感情甚至會認為不應該起訴的結果呢明年起要適用了要適用國民法官法冗長的程序審理你們自己法官都受不了國民法官反省的程序所以才會對辦理國民參審的法官減分案結果你們減分案當事人程序冗長飽受折磨"},{"start":750.619,"end":770.411,"text":"當事人都認罪了你們他剛剛講的或許第六條第一項第四款他講的第一個條件人家受害者家屬也願意原諒他了受害者家屬也認為說不要再國民參審了可是你們都還要堅持要人家陪你們玩下去玩一出國民參審的法庭大戲不可要人民怎麼信賴你們司法"},{"start":775.458,"end":801.612,"text":"蛤 這個未來怎麼辦 十年以上他也是適用國民法官法的 這一種 到現在你們都還是認為說 一定要陪你們審到完嗎報告委員 這當然是原則上依照國民法第五條的規定符合相關的規定 故意犯罪致人於死或第二階段十年以上有囚刑當然就是原則上要適用 但是當然個案情況下有可能會依照第六條的 依照案件的情況第六條哪一款"},{"start":802.674,"end":824.361,"text":"第二 如果是非常複雜的情形的話當然有可能是有第三款的反查性條款第四款可不可以第四款的部分呢尤其涉及到是有依照立法理由要必須量刑沒有爭議那在目前的實務上的話他量刑會有爭議嗎清潔隊隊員欠佔一個破電鍋人家國民的感情是希望你連起訴都不要啦"},{"start":826.758,"end":842.383,"text":"委員我想補充一下因為委員舉的這個例子他不是國民法官他出問題不是在國民法官這邊的設計而是說對於那個貪污自罪條例對於這些那個財務非常輕微的我們的司法刑事政策要怎麼處理"},{"start":843.263,"end":869.511,"text":"那這個部分法務部事實上他們也都一直很加緊的就是在做了很多的到現在沒有改變以前你不要跟我講法務部不要再講為稅不起訴你不要跟我講這個到現在沒有100%剔除以前不要講這個事實上我現在就是在跟你講國民法官法你明年起十年以上的重罪通通都要改國民法官審理"},{"start":871.111,"end":893.272,"text":"現在清潔隊侵占一個電鍋就是10年以上貪污的罪好 我現在再跟你講另外一個問題昨天你們廳長在這裡答詢他說怎麼可以讓被告有選擇要不要適用國民法官的權利被告沒有選擇權現在我要講了"},{"start":897.028,"end":912.675,"text":"看就是說第六條第一項第四款喔是我們決定的啦不是你被告可以申請的啦你們不斷高舉著刑事訴訟是以被告為主體才改良適當事人進行主義同時還要發現真實在這種狀況裡面啦"},{"start":917.638,"end":927.704,"text":"為什麼作為刑事訴訟的主體對於要適用什麼樣的程序會沒有選擇權你們廳長的言論代表你們司法院嗎你們說"},{"start":931.843,"end":949.661,"text":"刑事訴訟的主體是這個被告當然是主體刑事訴訟制度要分成兩部分用一般程序的就說被告是訴訟主體用國民法官法的就說被告不是訴訟主體那被告不是訴訟主體難道是客體嗎是讓你們任你們隨便"},{"start":951.021,"end":980.128,"text":"予取予求任你們宰割的課題嗎你們自己都不會覺得矛盾嗎一下子說被告是訴訟的主體然後昨天聽長說被告沒有選擇程序的權利你們這樣子搞他是代表你們司法院嗎這樣子有辦法讓人民信服你們一下子這樣子 一下子那樣子 到底被告是不是訴訟的主體昨天聽長這樣講他沒有選擇進行什麼樣程序的權利"},{"start":981.943,"end":1003.645,"text":"他是代表你們司法院嗎那報告委因為這個部分基本上被告有沒有選擇權這個事情基本上在國民法官法立法過程中就已經有討論過很多了那後來決定沒有選擇權的原因是因為考量在目前有採取所謂這個選擇權的國家對國民參審的一個部分其實案件都非常的少"},{"start":1004.085,"end":1023.39,"text":"那其實就會失去了那你第六條第一項第四款是什麼一回事第六條的例外條款是什麼一回事第六條的一個情況呢基本上是原則上適用國民法官法的前提下呢謹慎的適用判處條款所以假如適用國民法不請國民法官審判的門開得很小耶"},{"start":1026.345,"end":1046.57,"text":"他的門開得很小 就第六條第一項的幾個條件而已咧那我也沒有叫你打開耶我也沒有反對國民法官訴訟的審理耶我現在講的是說你訂了第六條第一項的可以例外的條款而你們的門人家法律明明法律所許可你們這個門就給他關起來"},{"start":1049.332,"end":1066.39,"text":"然後他跟人家講說你沒有選擇的權利就第六條第一項可以例外許可的狀況當事人有沒有選擇的權利有沒有蛤 有沒有報告委員依照目前第六條的一個設計呢基本上被告是沒有選擇權的"},{"start":1068.516,"end":1075.899,"text":"我在講例外的條款例外的條款那所以你們整個刑事審判的體系是分成兩個架構喔"},{"start":1081.778,"end":1104.209,"text":"所以怎麼樣國民法官法就剝奪了他的訴訟主體的位置報告委員那個有關於被告是不是訴訟主體現在你們今天在這裡答詢的昨天講一個樣子今天講一個樣子明天還會再講一個樣子所以今天為什麼人家對你們司法制度上連制度上都沒有辦法信賴因為你在這裡學不出來嘛好我現在在講增進人民對司法的信賴"},{"start":1105.492,"end":1128.652,"text":"你要人家的對你們信賴方法很多啦你們法官要做出正確的判斷啦法官要像個法官啦不要幫助人犯脫逃啦一個中文治安兩個高院的法官一個還是庭長啊庭長欸到現在都多久了你們司法院給我們什麼交代嗯"},{"start":1132.422,"end":1146.769,"text":"我沒有在講這個很認真我現在跟你講說要推國民法官法你們就要把制度弄好要好好的弄弄好所以你們為什麼人家就那麼討厭你我舉一個例子"},{"start":1149.11,"end":1175.798,"text":"我以前質詢過我們在講說為什麼曾經我們在曾經我們辦公室因為工作需要上網查詢了一件判決書要查詢台北地方法院行政訴訟有關飲水法事件的判決判決日期在111年結果查不到在你們判決系統查不到我們去詢問司法院司法院了解的結果是當時系統沒有上傳成功"},{"start":1176.938,"end":1198.105,"text":"所以裁判書的重要是在於透過裁判書的公開的機制要來監督法官的裁判是否公正和妥適要保障人民的權利確保法院是不是有公平審判除了兒少啦 性侵啦 國家機密制裁法其實所有全部都會在裁判書系統上公開吧 對吧好"},{"start":1200.987,"end":1218.946,"text":"可是我們查詢這件無關乎不能公開的也非屬裁判書遮隱原則的在海量的判決當中就是剛好撈到沒有上傳的怎麼會這麼巧呢怎麼會這麼巧呢我就發現一個個案抱歉在我的手機上我會拿出來看一下"},{"start":1223.629,"end":1238.574,"text":"好 再請林委員掌握時間 我們已經按鈴六次了因為您的這個質詢問題很重要所以就是最後 麻煩對 也是希望最後可以在兩分鐘之內結束 謝謝好 來 媒體報導這個前幾天的報導"},{"start":1246.881,"end":1263.958,"text":"25年11月12號 17年前姐弟戀談分手 勒死他這次女友想分手 再勒斃他恐怖情人收押結果就有人來告訴我們了17年前的當事人的案件"},{"start":1265.492,"end":1282.137,"text":"他判刑18年但很多人想說這累犯耶而且顯然他的行為相當人格上有異常人家要跟他分手就勒逼他兩次了而且現在假釋期間還未滿就再勒逼另外一個女朋友然後我們就想說當事人"},{"start":1283.977,"end":1299.765,"text":"我們就告訴我們說 你知道這個18年前判決這一個理性男子18年的法官是誰 你知道嗎這個完全沒有涉及 不能公開喔這一個法官叫什麼名字 你知道嗎查詢不到"},{"start":1304.13,"end":1333.536,"text":"我們查詢了 查詢不到當事人有來陳情告訴我們18年前的案件查詢不到這個案件 你知道為什麼嗎因為這個法官現在是司法院的高官我就不要講了 昨天有在現場的司法院的高官啊怕人家查詢到這樣的案子名譽不好所以就讓我們查詢不到"},{"start":1336.55,"end":1362.141,"text":"你知道嗎我現在其實不是要講這個個案啦我現在是要告訴你們你們從這裡這個就是為什麼司法失去人民信任的主要核心你們還可以利用權力為高官把他的判決書不名譽的不符合國民感情的不符合社會期待的遮掩起來"},{"start":1363.743,"end":1371.369,"text":"違法的遮掩起來司法院的高官你自己回去看我剛剛跟你講了什麼案件日期報導媒體報導的我現在再問你喔"},{"start":1376.565,"end":1387.056,"text":"我想那個原因應該是有一些誤解司法院絕對不可能 因為就是說沒有誤解當事人的朋友來陳情然後他們就說是某個高官判決現在我們去查詢 查詢不到"},{"start":1396.525,"end":1406.391,"text":"本辦公室去查詢查詢不到好這不是我今天要質詢的主題我是說司法的官真敗壞就是這樣子我現在問你國民法官案件的證據調查你們書面報告給我的書面報告第二頁說有簡便雙方向法官說明證據的證明力我問你"},{"start":1415.857,"end":1420.439,"text":"在說明這個證據證明力的時候不就是會講到證據的內容嗎沒有講到證據的內容是要怎麼跟法官說明這個證據需要調查不講內容法官說沒有調查必要性就不調查了嗎講了內容請問法官不就預斷了嗎所以你父子妻女啊你如果怎麼做都不對啊"},{"start":1442.391,"end":1466.193,"text":"講內容也不行 不講內容也不行司法院這樣子父子妻離你都不覺得這個制度有問題嗎準備程序證據調查的申請由陳審的法官去負責要不要受理這個證據調查決定要不要證據調查不講內容跟講內容都不對啊我再問你 這樣子行嗎你說要回答讓你回答"},{"start":1467.7,"end":1491.131,"text":"來 你來講委員其實您提示這個就是一個證據開示的那個制度那它就是這樣子運作的這個不是只有在怎麼這樣子運作 你昨天沒有來國民法由陳審的法官去負責國民法官的證據調查方式如果是號稱事先不知悉案件內容的法官去負責"},{"start":1492.768,"end":1504.101,"text":"完全都不知道 那人家來請你做證據調查你簡直叫法官 這個法官他都不知道案情也不知道證據的關聯性 也不知道內容的話要嘛摸黑審理 要嘛瞎子摸象"},{"start":1506.123,"end":1521.859,"text":"要嘛就是法官已經預斷他看了他就是要預斷嘛要嘛他就什麼都搞不清楚不管他是產生預斷或者是什麼都搞不清楚因此而做成的證據要調查或不調查你們不覺得這樣子的制度設計有問題嗎"},{"start":1527.124,"end":1533.13,"text":"為什麼國民法官法第44條可以規定關於羈押的決定是由另一組法官處理而證據調查的決定卻不能夠比照辦理呢你們司法院都會講法律講求證據結果你們法官法的案件對於證據的調查要嘛太嚴格要嘛又太寬鬆寬鬆就算了如果採一個嚴格的標準"},{"start":1551.846,"end":1564.624,"text":"如果不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不符然後上訴之後還不能改判現在你知道法官都不知道案情內容那申請證據調查他怎麼判斷"},{"start":1567.368,"end":1572.772,"text":"所以這個證據是篩選過的呈現給國民法官看的證據麻煩一位委員可以再更簡短因為我們今天給你很多時間了好 謝謝 抱歉我講一下因為這個案件真的比較複雜呈現給國民法官看我們還有再一次的機會麻煩一分鐘呈現給國民法官看的證據是篩選過的由號稱不知案情的陳審法官決定的"},{"start":1590.026,"end":1618.879,"text":"而這樣的證據是篩選過的給國民法官看判決會公平嗎而且一審的判決到二審上訴之後法官不能改判欸不能改判欸然後你們不准人家救濟不准 如果你法官證據調查下不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴以後還不能改判這樣子的司法制度不是草菅人命嗎而且"},{"start":1619.819,"end":1624.724,"text":"國民法官審的都是重罪重罪 這個問題這麼多你們不覺得這個問題有問題嗎"},{"start":1630.288,"end":1650.805,"text":"報告委員 這邊簡單的回應一下委員的意見 回應一下委員的問題第一個有關於證據裁定的問題 基本上你說要照昨天給我的書面資料來回答就不用了不是這樣 原則上應該說在準備程序的時候為了要申請調查證據 本身並不會去朗讀相關的證據的內容給對方 你不要再這麼亂講了基本上只會依照他想要申請調查的證據所要預證明的那個代證事實跟"},{"start":1657.671,"end":1658.632,"text":"這個證據的證明沒有講內容法官怎麼知道要他的必要性"},{"start":1664.062,"end":1688.144,"text":"在哪裡講的內容以後不產生預斷嗎但我再問你什麼叫行政違卷行政違卷是稍微你有聽過行政違卷嗎我我我最後一題而已最後一個我兩分鐘抱歉不是我們已經行政違卷安排沒有人我只有兩分鐘我們今天已經真的時間稍微真的求求你我只有兩分鐘我最後"},{"start":1688.464,"end":1699.97,"text":"行政委卷 最後一個行政委員去趕快回答行政委卷 昭緯我想你也沒聽過他在國民法官法施行細則第136條第4項意思是法院去函查 函調回來的資料這個資料要編入行政委卷連副秘書長都沒有聽過為什麼這樣設計一定是因為說不要讓法官產生預斷這個叫做掩耳盜鈴啦"},{"start":1715.299,"end":1738.708,"text":"法院去含查 含調回來的資料送到法院法官第一個看到法官看到以後才會批示這個資料要編入行政委卷你們掩耳盜鈴你們法官明明看到了故意講一個名詞叫做行政委卷然後再欺騙人民說法官沒有看到喔"},{"start":1739.528,"end":1749.482,"text":"你們在說什麼 這樣子能夠增進國民對司法的信賴嗎你們說國民法官的案件 法官都沒有看到 不會預斷誰相信"},{"start":1753.047,"end":1761.074,"text":"報告委員有關行政委卷那相關於審判卷中那審判卷中這有編入審判卷中法官才會看那行政委卷的話我們會把它密封起來行政委卷就是交付到法官桌上然後要交付他交付到行政委卷法官你可以用道德約束法官不會翻開看如果行政委卷的資料只有一頁一頁就看光光如果是一堆他說我不敢翻開看你知道他有沒有翻開看有沒有翻開看 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林士欣 林副主任公眾外交協調會 蕭光偉 蕭執行長非政府組織國際事務會 江振偉 江執行長台灣日本關係協會 張仁久 張秘書長理事事務局 鄭振勇 鄭局長國際合作發展基金會 黃玉琳 秘書長"},{"start":1993.618,"end":2018.066,"text":"以及農業部 杜文貞 杜長賜國際事務司 蕭中瓊 蕭司長畜牧師 檢任記政 周文林 周記政農糧署 黃昭新 黃副署長漁業署 林鼎榮 林副署長"},{"start":2021.241,"end":2044.995,"text":"動植物防疫檢疫署翁伊茲翁組長還有衛生福利部林靜儀林政務次長國際合作組施金水施主任資訊處游子佳游分析師中央健康保險署企劃組游慧珍游組長"},{"start":2047.682,"end":2051.945,"text":"食品藥物管理署企科組鄭維智鄭組長現在補充介紹羅美玲羅委員請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2069.827,"end":2083.212,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部農業部衛生福利部報告整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展策略與進展並被質詢首先邀請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":2091.499,"end":2116.121,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安感謝貴委員會邀請本部前來就整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展策略與進展進行專題報告並被質詢本能警則要向各委員口頭說明那相關的細節敬請參考本部完整的書面報告"},{"start":2117.373,"end":2126.721,"text":"我要感謝同仁這一次的報告整理得很完整最主要是應貴委員會希望更加了解我們也希望能夠尋求委員的支持能夠一起來推動我們的國際合作的發展"},{"start":2135.127,"end":2155.723,"text":"首先,我國推動國際合作發展的核心信念是發揚Taiwan Can Help的人道精神,回饋國際社會並履行國際責任,深化與友邦與友好國家的關係。歷經逾60年的努力,我國已由受援國轉型為具有良好國際聲譽的援助者。"},{"start":2156.423,"end":2174.238,"text":"那我國援外成果涵蓋的領域非常的寡包括比較早期從農林、畜產、教育、文化那今年更延伸到公衛醫療、中小企業、婦女父權、環境保護、數位轉型、資通訊及半導體等關鍵領域"},{"start":2176.32,"end":2183.242,"text":"外交部近年來推動總和外交與融幫計畫秉持的價值外交以及經濟日部落國的願景根據賴總統的施政方針整合跨部會及公司資源結合科技與經濟外交來邁向所謂的加值的外交來創造更高的附加價值能夠促成善的循環而持續擴大與夥伴國的交往關係"},{"start":2203.939,"end":2231.734,"text":"那麼我國援外工作形成相當獨特的台灣模式強到受人以魚不如受人以魚那善用我國優勢產業技術由夥伴國提出需求共同量身擬定計畫並派遣專業人員赴當地執行強化能力建構落實以人為本的價值特別是在中國推動一帶一路數位思路那透過援外"},{"start":2235.237,"end":2252.629,"text":"對國際的一個重要的基礎建設甚至他們國家的資產的控制台灣剛好形成了另外一個可以對比的模式提供給國際做比較跟選擇那麼我國援外的專責機構特別是財團法人國際合作發展基金會於民國85年成立"},{"start":2259.839,"end":2274.111,"text":"這個是承接之前的海和會的任務以及他的基金淨值116億元而海和會原金行政院合併基金總額是新台幣300億元目前政府實際挹注約124億元 上游175億元左右 有待撥補"},{"start":2281.041,"end":2304.224,"text":"那麼我們也會逐年的來進行撥補尋求立法院的支持那民國99年公布了國際合作發展法及六項執法這奠定了法制的基礎那外交部是以國家對的概念統籌協調各部會以及公司部門的資源將國際合作的工作提升至總和外交的層次"},{"start":2305.365,"end":2332.439,"text":"那麼我國國際合作發展策略以鞏固邦誼的核心並深化與理念相近國家的合作外交部規劃榮邦計畫及基於五大信賴產業的八大旗艦計畫透過智慧解決方案輸出我國的優勢產業那麼助人也立即協助廠商佈局全球也提升我國對國際合作發展的貢獻"},{"start":2333.815,"end":2363.295,"text":"本部依照執行的時機有限的資源和國際趨勢的發展整合台灣的產業優勢透過跨部會的合作特別是聚焦在公衛醫療數位轉型產業升級氣候變遷能力建構以及發展金融等六大核心領域以發揮最大的忠孝在執行層面上考量國際開發實務常需要結合公共與民間的資本所以參考美國的"},{"start":2363.915,"end":2389.093,"text":"DFC日本的JECA等做法未來將強化國和會投資的能量增加以投資方式來推動國際合作發展的影響力這個也是包括川普總統還有包括歐盟日本當前在推動所謂的經濟外交或所謂的商業的外交那麼用投資來建構一個更緊密的夥伴關係而不是單純的一個援外的一個行動"},{"start":2392.736,"end":2403.492,"text":"本部也已經建立了跨部會協作的機制先後曾經與環境部、衛福部、農業部、教育部、國科會及勞動部等成立雙部長的會議"},{"start":2405.57,"end":2428.459,"text":"並且透過行政院的經濟外交工作小組進行跨部會的協調也包括雙部長會議裡面特別比如說我們跟衛福部有建構一個醫療衛生外交諮詢小組有效運用國家優勢的產業包括之前所謂一國一中心推動智慧醫療跟健康的產業來落實台灣成為經濟日不落國的願景"},{"start":2431.32,"end":2455.085,"text":"那麼在整合優勢來執行國際合作發展的進展跟時機方面那麼我國的國際合作發展資源有效貢獻了聯合國永續發展目標作為一個這個發展的一個重點尤其是在消除飢餓健康福祉及氣候變遷等領域成效著重而國會目前在全球21國"},{"start":2457.765,"end":2475.403,"text":"包括國際組織設置了22個駐外的技術團隊常駐的專家顧問 技術人員計畫經濟及華語教師約130人近5年來每年平均執行逾百項的雙邊技術合作計畫近年來更拓展到多邊的合作"},{"start":2476.164,"end":2492.856,"text":"那長期透過獎學金專業研習班國際志工及外交替代役培育具備技術能力與領導潛力的新世代人才外交替代役也已經成為援外體系不可或缺的重要能力與外交資產本部將持續爭取辦理"},{"start":2494.577,"end":2520.022,"text":"那麼六大核心優勢領域的時機與案例請參閱報告附錄一有詳細的說明那麼我國持續推動國際合作發展轉型擴大與國際夥伴合作運用雙邊與多邊的機制強化援助能量與能見度首先在策略性區域合作方面優先對邦交國分配資源滿足民生需求並搭配龍幫計畫強化經貿能力"},{"start":2522.682,"end":2548.996,"text":"深化新南向的政策推動數位新南向我方促成台飛經濟走廊對接美日飛的旅送經濟走廊的布局菲律賓今年放寬官員與我互動的限制菲律賓與問來並公告我國護照免簽14日有助於深化經貿投資及觀光交流那麼在深化與理念相近國家方面我們在推動的就是一個所謂小多邊的合作"},{"start":2549.676,"end":2558.721,"text":"那麼把雙邊的關係拓展到三方甚至是區域性的一個合作那首先在台美合作方面透過在第三國合作"},{"start":2559.707,"end":2582.352,"text":"以及全球合作暨訓練架構就是GCTF並擴大納入日澳 加英等夥伴迄今舉辦了90場的國際合作有超過1萬人次參與展現台灣在全球合作中的積極角色特別是美國在川普總統第一任期的時候推動成立的EPPD經濟繁榮夥伴"},{"start":2586.713,"end":2592.677,"text":"的架構是到第三國去合作這個在美國的國務卿Marco Rubio也特別在拜訪包括瓜地馬拉等國的時候也特別強調肯定他們跟台灣維持邦交的關係另外當然包括貝里斯 巴拉圭 帛琉等國都是美國非常重視的盟邦透過這樣的一個台美合作到第三國"},{"start":2611.668,"end":2626.777,"text":"去發展我們的經濟外交那也推動 援外以外也進行了我們台商的全球佈局那麼在台歐合作方面 自2022年起呢台灣就跟捷克 斯洛伐克以及立陶宛等民主夥伴推動"},{"start":2628.035,"end":2645.645,"text":"所謂的民主供應鏈的韌性計畫特別是台歐半導體人才培育計畫協助我國廠商布局歐洲供應鏈並厚植民主供應鏈的人脈近期我們又特別擴大到波蘭以及其他未來中東歐新興市場的國家"},{"start":2646.645,"end":2662.836,"text":"在強化與國際組織的多邊合作方面我們善用科技優勢來爭取參與例如在今年WHA期間舉辦智慧醫療說明會推廣醫療公衛外交台灣隊在APEC的年會以數位健康為重點"},{"start":2663.757,"end":2676.533,"text":"提案成立這個跨國的基金那也協助會員能力的建構另外也透過卡貝就是跟這個EBRD就是有關於"},{"start":2678.223,"end":2701.438,"text":"中美洲和歐洲的這些雙邊的基金每年挹注資助技術合作的計畫例如2025年已經資助10項計畫以落實經濟外交在公司跟政府與民間之間的合作夥伴關係方面本部運用所謂的4P就是Public Private People Partnership的策略鼓勵企業NGO"},{"start":2703.339,"end":2726.132,"text":"共同投入國核發展計畫並積極籌設 INGO 中心國際非政府組織的中心在台灣打造台灣成為印太國際非政府組織的運作中心我國持續推動國際合作發展工作的轉型擴大與國際夥伴的合作運用雙邊與多邊的機制強化援助能量提升我們的能見度"},{"start":2726.812,"end":2744.945,"text":"那麼最後呢我國跟國際的ODA在執行的現況上那麼的合作情形以及未來的展望本部已經在112年底公布了新版的國際合作發展政策白皮書將原外更新為國際合作發展而以本部的統計我國113年度ODA約4億350億美元4億350"},{"start":2755.47,"end":2778.09,"text":"的這個美元 佔我們GNI的比例是0.049%這遠低於聯合國建議的0.7%以及德日韓等國的水準 今年援外預算為明顯增加而我國的國民生產毛額持續成長導致比例不增反減 那為提高整體援外能量"},{"start":2779.076,"end":2791.282,"text":"本部本年已增加編列國和發展相關預算包含預祝新台幣30億元次國和會的基金並規劃逐年編列以達成原合定300億元的規模那麼結語台灣以自身發展實力與韌性經濟和各國來分享已經廣獲國際的迴響展現善循環的正向能量"},{"start":2801.167,"end":2823.161,"text":"未來外交部將持續擴大國際合作發展工作的深度與廣度運用雙邊合作累積的能量拓展多邊參與的空間而面對疫後資源落差與威權主義的挑戰台灣將持續深化優勢領域的國際合作全力推動總和外交以民主和平與繁榮深化台灣國際鏈結展現台灣是負責任肯奉獻的可信賴夥伴"},{"start":2826.863,"end":2842.417,"text":"最後感謝委員會對本部業務的支持跟指導也請各位委員繼續這個知道未來國家國際合作發展事項來推動台灣成為一個國際良善的力量謝謝謝謝接下來請農業部"},{"start":2860.923,"end":2883.481,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位女士先生早今天本人很榮幸代表農業部列席國防及外交委員會的會議以下緊究整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作的發展策略與進展做報告詳細如書面資料以下緊究重點略敘如第一個我國現在的國際農業合作現況截至11月止我國總計與18個國家簽署有農業合作的協定或備忘錄"},{"start":2890.567,"end":2901.908,"text":"18個國家如書面那在這些合作架構之下是不定期的召開農業合作會議農業合作討論的主題有三項第一個是農業政策的交流第二個是貿易的促進以及技術的合作"},{"start":2903.413,"end":2921.595,"text":"除此之外本部也配合外交部及國和會的規劃提供必要的技術資源及專家輔導包括道米原外技術團的技術交流以及外交部最近推動的榮邦計畫那透過雙邊及多邊的管道拓展農業發展的契機並強化公司協力的合作夥伴關係"},{"start":2922.856,"end":2938.01,"text":"跟海外的農業供應鏈做連結舉辦國際組織的農業活動為糧食安全與永續農業提出創新的政策跟貢獻以下緊究國際合作的三個面向包括政策交流 貿易促進以及技術合作做說明"},{"start":2938.63,"end":2957.704,"text":"在政策交流的部分一個是在永續農業的生產體系那永續農業其實已經是全球的一個議題因為面對的氣候變遷以及生態環境的影響所以如何提升農業韌性及維護生態平衡是一個全球重要的策略也是為了提供農業農產品的食品安全以及"},{"start":2958.784,"end":2985.172,"text":"一些相關標章的整合所以我們強化了農產品的溯源管理提高國內糧食自給率本部從106年開始推動化學農藥的風險十年減半計畫如今也有許多成果包括生物有害生物的綜合管理IPM的耕作模式建立生物防治資材的開發與供應鏈的建立並透過IPM的獎勵鼓勵友善資材的使用以及生態的一些維護所以現在的有機"},{"start":2986.936,"end":3010.003,"text":"驗證面積及友善環境耕作面積一共有27,012公頃是我國耕地面積的3.47%除此之外持續推動資源循環在利用降低溫室效應的排放以及有更多的消費者買到更安全的農產品也是我國在推動永續農業的重要經驗與成就也具有高度的參考價值可以供國際借鏡"},{"start":3011.523,"end":3024.819,"text":"第二個是在氣候韌性跟災害管理台灣因為地處於颱風的路徑跟板塊交界的地震熱區具有波抖 流擊 降雨劇烈的特性也是全球少數"},{"start":3026.661,"end":3043.888,"text":"把這個高風險環境都集中在一個國家裡面的一個少數特殊案例所以也因此我們長期建立了土石流的觀測 雨量監測地表變位的偵測 山崩潛勢分析BIG GIS跨域整合的完整坡地災害管理體系"},{"start":3044.688,"end":3059.686,"text":"极具有国际合作的潜力也跟美国 日本 越南 菲律宾泰国跟捷克等国有持续的在交流在台湾办理国际天然灾害防治研讨会也有超过16个国家的100多位官员及学者参加"},{"start":3060.467,"end":3085.624,"text":"那第三個政策交流的面向是在農村與社區發展農村與社區的永續發展是非常重要的那台灣的農村具有社區組織完整文化多元社造能力強的這個特色並且有農村再生條例作為法治基礎那我們推動農村金牌農村綠色照顧農村社企青年回流等完整的支持體系更輔導休閒農業禮山倡議等"},{"start":3088.886,"end":3111.001,"text":"代表性的案例打造了宜居宜業宜遊的新農村本部農村發展及水土保持署已經成功輔導國內有12個案例獲得聯合國禮山倡議國際夥伴關係認可的一個成功的案例也刊登在ISPI的相關網站上"},{"start":3111.981,"end":3137.523,"text":"在農業治理體系與制度的建立台灣農業治理的制度是非常完備的特別是透過農會體系的組織運作農村金融的服務 農業保險等具有高度的整合與制度的韌性這也是國際間非常難能可貴的案例在制度化的農民參與跟政策協調平台有效提升政策的落實的效率以及也確保我們所有的農民的福祉"},{"start":3138.203,"end":3151.053,"text":"所以這樣的模式在國際間也具有可借鏡的治理經驗表示在整個在農村的發展上面農業的制度推動上其實在國際政策的交流與合作也有很好的基石"},{"start":3152.386,"end":3169.818,"text":"那第二個是在貿易的促進那本部透過不管是在資商談判或者是在雙邊多邊的管道積極輔導我們的外銷業者以及農民拓展優良農產品到歐美日韓等高所得高消費的新興市場強化我們的海外佈局"},{"start":3170.518,"end":3199.357,"text":"那近年開放新的市場的成果包括在去年113年我國鳳梨獲准出口到紐西蘭在6月紅肉種的紅龍果也准許輸出到日本10月也有新加坡同意我們的生鮮豬肉出口11月我們的龍虎斑也准許到日本那這四項都陸續有出口的時機那在今年我們的豬皮與豬內臟獲得菲律賓開放可以輸入另外歐盟也准我們的芒果跟番石榴"},{"start":3200.137,"end":3221.695,"text":"那雖然不幸在日前發生了國內發生非洲豬瘟案例但是經過15天的高強度的防疫策略我們目前並沒有發現其他的案例一場所以我們會持續強化防疫工作那也因為其他各國也有認可我們的整個獸醫服務體系所以經過積極爭取我們的加熱豬肉目前還是可以出口到日本跟新加坡"},{"start":3222.615,"end":3239.787,"text":"至於漁業合作及漁產品的市場供應部分遠洋漁業近五年的平均的年產量大概都是49萬公噸年產值大概有323億台幣所以作為作業船隻目前維持大概有1000艘我們是遍及三大海洋的"},{"start":3243.691,"end":3257.527,"text":"漁業強國所以我們的漁船為了維護我們的漁船在各大洋區的作業權益我們積極參與各區域性的漁業管理組織也積極參與國際的一些相關合作事務特別透過APEC我們做計畫的共同提案人"},{"start":3258.803,"end":3280.141,"text":"提供漁業資料以及分享管理現況我們也積極參加我們沿海國的一些入漁或租漁的漁業合作這為我們的漁船擴大作業的空間同時也為沿海國帶來經濟效益所以也可以鞏固我們跟拓展跟邦漁也有一些十分正面的效果所以114年我國援揚漁船與19個國家的449艘次有漁業合作關係"},{"start":3286.306,"end":3304.711,"text":"那第三個在技術合作的部分近年來是透過智慧農業的部分智慧農業的物聯網農業物聯網計畫雲世代的數位轉型跟晶片創新等四個計畫對於農業的智慧化及數位化轉型也有一些投入科研跟相當成果"},{"start":3305.231,"end":3326.922,"text":"所以跟經濟部 數位發展部合作整合我們國家的晶片 三電跟資訊服務等產業的優勢並與在地地方政府做協力目前已經完成194項的技術轉移有88家的企業登陸智慧農業科技服務體系也有衍生8個新創公司並且建立480個智慧農業場域有超過4000處導入應用"},{"start":3330.504,"end":3349.451,"text":"所以依據我們目前調查的結果我們智慧農業的普及率達到24.5%那為了加速我國智慧農業的落地普及那除了解決我們在地的需求之外其實我們也鼓勵我們智慧農業相關的軟體硬體相關設備廠到國外發展那在國外發展的策略大概分兩項一個是"},{"start":3351.499,"end":3380.595,"text":"针对研发能量较弱但是对智慧农业需求高的比方说像东南亚及南亚那我们这个部分是鼓励业者到国外去发展那我们统合我们自己的试验改良场所及农业科学研究院的相关技术与国和会像亚苏还是国际稻米组织这些国际组织一起合作在双边交流管道提供整合性的跨领域全方位的解决方案希望建立共创共融的营运模式"},{"start":3381.195,"end":3397.384,"text":"那第二個是針對那些本身就研發能力強但是需要智慧農業技術合作夥伴的比方說像日本跟韓國那因為其實在智慧農業的發展很多需要是智慧農機的協力收集田間數據那我們是鼓勵我們國內的智農廠商"},{"start":3402.347,"end":3419.464,"text":"打造打造農民用得起的智慧農機那基本上是推動零組件規格化跟共通化提高規模化的機會那降低購置智慧農機的成本並與鄰近的日本韓國合作共同使用相同規格的零組件共同創造農業智慧農業的未來"},{"start":3423.047,"end":3445.209,"text":"所以我國在農業治理的制度疫情的防控氣候的韌性農村永續發展以及永續農業的推動其實已經有很好的基礎跟成果那除了長期可以穩定我們國內的農業發展之外其實也有很多可以供國際來借鏡所以掌握市場趨勢除了積極推動新市場之外也要強化我們國家的農業國際競爭力"},{"start":3446.991,"end":3457.476,"text":"在技術合作方面不管是在智慧農業或是數位轉型其實都具有相當的優勢可作為國際合作的一些推動標的以上報告敬請各位不吝指教謝謝好 謝謝接下來請衛生福利部報告好"},{"start":3473.553,"end":3490.614,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天逢大院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸自就整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展策略與進展提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":3491.335,"end":3518.624,"text":"我国医疗卫生成就备受国际肯定多年来本部配合外交部整体援外策略在邦交国及友好国家执行医疗卫生合作计划分享台湾先进的医疗卫生专业技术以及经验在新冠肺炎期间我们以具体行动与各国合作展现台湾can help and Taiwan is helping的精神后疫情时代本部仍然持续拓展国际交流相关的策略与进展以下报告"},{"start":3519.304,"end":3532.871,"text":"在國際組織方面本部積極參與亞太經濟合作APEC衛生工作小組並與衛生工作小組領導數位健康刺激工作小組在2025年部長率團赴韓國出席APEC衛生與經濟高階會議分享台灣的經驗並且與多國經濟體進行雙邊會談除了參與APEC每年例行的衛生相關會議之外"},{"start":3542.876,"end":3559.228,"text":"本部也持續申請APEC經費並且主辦國際研討會以提升我國專業能見度與貢獻度本部食品藥物管理署也積極參與國際組織會議及活動推動我國藥品、醫療器材及化妝品法規與國際調合跟接軌並且已經成為多個國際組織的成員"},{"start":3565.373,"end":3582.457,"text":"本部亦持續以過重要國家及國際組織就雙方關切之衛生議題透過簽署合作備忘錄舉辦會議或互訪等方式進行交流合作此外本部自2005年起與外交部共同辦理台灣全球健康福祉論壇每年邀請國內外官員與專家探討國際關注的議題"},{"start":3587.458,"end":3601.429,"text":"今年以台灣健保三十共創永續未來為主題從健康平權高齡化挑戰與健保創新等面向展現台灣的政策成果在人才與設備協助方面本部台灣國際醫療衛生人員訓練中心已經協助85國與2000名醫衛人員來台受訓"},{"start":3608.735,"end":3625.713,"text":"醫療器材援助平台計畫募集國內醫療院所太舊但堪用的儀器已經捐贈超過8000件到39國強化他們的醫療量能以及台灣跟他們的合作另外本部接受外交部委辦太平洋友邦醫療合作計畫提供"},{"start":3627.059,"end":3640.737,"text":"合作國永續經營的一味協助一味新南向政策前兩期以興建與新南向國家的雙向合作基礎第三期將以公私協力推動產業永續發展為原則擴大合作的深度與廣度"},{"start":3642.099,"end":3657.112,"text":"在科技应用方面本部成立三大AI中心且与多国交流并洽谈合作同时推动三大平台三大标准具领先性也吸引国外政府单位跟厂商洽谈合作的机会"},{"start":3658.331,"end":3684.819,"text":"在全球面臨人口老化與醫療科技發展的挑戰之際台灣累積30年全民健保發展經驗以及具備的智慧醫療資通訊跟健康資料管理領域的優勢能為其他國家提供可借鏡的解決方案本部將透過與會議專業交流結合學術產業界的力量推動台灣技術與產品強化我國在全球衛生體系的角色"},{"start":3686.021,"end":3714.444,"text":"未来本部亦将持续与外交部以及其他部会密切合作参与国际医疗卫生合作跟人道援助强化与友邦及理念相近国家的伙伴关系同时结合民间力量拓展国际人脉争取更多国际支持深化我国在全球卫生治理中的参与增进台湾与全球人民的健康与福祉本部呈大院各委员指导及监督在此尽致谢诚并其各位委员继续予以支持"},{"start":3720.37,"end":3737.239,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請外交部林部長請林部長"},{"start":3756.477,"end":3785.408,"text":"部長早委員長是 部長今年我國跟歐洲民主夥伴的互動頻率是明顯的提升除了剛剛部長你所提到的就是說從2022年開始我們跟中東歐的民主夥伴比如說像捷克 斯洛伐克跟立陶宛等國家我們合作推動了很多項的雙邊的韌性進化之外其實近期我們跟歐洲的互動是有很密集的交流"},{"start":3786.269,"end":3793.477,"text":"不單單我們來看看這幾個禮拜單單這幾個禮拜我們就有非常重大的一些外交的參與比如說我們看到我們的前副總統"},{"start":3800.985,"end":3824.168,"text":"陳建仁前副總統他也參與了教廷做科學院的國際研討會再來11月7號我們立法院的同仁黃捷委員前往德國參與世界青年領袖峰會而且還獲得了年度政治人物的大獎也是台灣第一位獲得殊榮的政治人物對我們來講這是一個非常大的榮耀"},{"start":3825.589,"end":3827.632,"text":"11月8號我們的蕭美琴副總統在布魯塞爾出席了跨國議會民主聯盟就是IPAC的政策峰會以副總統的身分發表了這個談話我想這部分外交部應該盡了非常多的心力"},{"start":3841.292,"end":3867.471,"text":"那再來還有隔了兩天11月10號我們的前總統蔡英文總統呢這個受邀前往德國在柏林自由會議呢發表了公開的這個演說那11月12號也是一個很大的突破沈博洋委員當然說看你怎麼樣出國結果呢他就到了德國聯邦國會受到這個德國聯邦國會的這個邀請呢針對這個威權國家假訊息跟資訊操作呢"},{"start":3868.451,"end":3890.235,"text":"進行了專題的證詞給這些人一個大大的耳光好像這些都是一個非常重要的一些外交的突破對於這部分本席是給外交部一個很大的肯定可是本席要特別提到的就是蕭美琴副總統到歐洲議會去演講的這個部分我想當天"},{"start":3897.436,"end":3921.428,"text":"應該有很多人跟本席一樣一覺醒來副總統竟然站上了歐洲議會發表了這個演說應該很多人都非常的驚喜非常的驚訝像本席那時候也想跟國人來分享這個訊息所以我們也發了這個文在這個社群平台發了這個文來做這個分享結果文一發出去呢"},{"start":3922.952,"end":3944.799,"text":"就發現說 哇 好多人來留言喔那留什麼呢這個是可能是用這個花了81歐元有肯定的 可是也有很多這種留言花了81歐元買來的那還有人在問說iPad這資金的運作台灣又有否出資啊 求解啊就說不要一直往自己臉上貼金啊這種情況應該算是什麼不好聽的一些言辭出現了那所以 這個是很快他就進來"},{"start":3953.761,"end":3977.03,"text":"很快就進來了好像面對這種而且他有些是假帳號有些是真的這個帳號所以面對這種那當然應該有些是國人那我不曉得他是抱著一個怎麼樣的一個心態我們在外交上面有這麼大的突破大家居然是撥冷水然後用這種方式來給這個外交部來給我們國家的元首來做這個洗臉"},{"start":3977.95,"end":4004.238,"text":"那像面對這樣子的這個鋪天蓋地的假訊息這麼大的一個突破我們這些人用貶抑的這個方式來修理外交部修理我們台灣那像這種帶風向假訊息的話我們有怎麼樣的一個處罰嗎我知道說有些人之前有一個什麼到日本去旅遊的一個年輕人他就造謠了然後入境的時候他有被"},{"start":4004.918,"end":4029.077,"text":"就是被檢調單位帶走那帶走之後呢後續是怎麼樣的一個處罰方式呢有沒有罰則啊 這個部分是請問部長好 這有罰則 委員有關於這一個貼這個假訊息的人也已經現在就是被這個就是逮捕偵辦嘛"},{"start":4030.938,"end":4045.005,"text":"我們當然過去的經驗因為這種所謂的FIMI境外的資訊的操弄也就是涉及到這種假訊息的認知作戰我們一定要"},{"start":4046.345,"end":4073.224,"text":"在最快的時間很正確的而且很精短的回應這是我想台灣的經驗現在全世界都很重視包括222就是對於這種假訊息你在發現之後兩個小時內你要用兩張的圖卡200字以內就要能夠清楚的去澄清因為這樣不然它擴散你就來不及所以這個有助於我們的人幫忙控制它的擴散"},{"start":4074.205,"end":4089.184,"text":"避免造成不可復原的傷害至於說違法的行為現在都在偵辦當中當然有境外的力量我們也會去溯源因為這裡面有所謂的不管用AI或是真人或各種方法這個是台灣我想這幾年面對的所謂的這種"},{"start":4094.751,"end":4105.624,"text":"這個假訊息已經也演變出一套因應的機制包括公民社會包括專業的團體也包括政府部門大家都有一個協作的關係"},{"start":4107.768,"end":4123.622,"text":"那除了說外交部在第一時間呢我們用什麼圖卡啦等等來做必要之外呢那法則呢這些人的法則是什麼因為我其實我有稍微看了一下可能就是只是會觸犯了這個社會法第63條第1項第5款"},{"start":4126.424,"end":4150.918,"text":"就是處三日以下拘留或新台幣三萬元以下的這個法環因為他散佈謠言 助影響公共治安寧者是不是 我們現在做法則就這麼輕嘛 是不是是 當然這只是社會秩序違法他可能違反其他的法令啦包括反滲透法或其他這個都要針對具體的案例那在偵辦中 如果有這些違法的事實會根據相關的法源來辦理"},{"start":4151.758,"end":4177.126,"text":"所以就是要去溯源 到底是說比如說我們剛才提到的像之前第一時間第一個留言就是說這是用80億的歐元來買的甚至說像有一個美國的一個什麼留美的一個學者是旅美的一個學者他甚至還提到說這只是借場地而已類似這個的話我們就是要馬上去做澄清可是對於這些造謠者"},{"start":4179.11,"end":4204.018,"text":"我們的法則是不是真的太輕當然可能如果除非牠牽扯到說牠是境外境外有涉入有這個國外境外的這個力量涉入的話才有說有違反了這個反滲透法什麼之類的可是如果沒有的話像目前的法則我們所知道牠只是充其量只是觸犯了這個涉違法是一個非常非常輕的一個法則"},{"start":4206.579,"end":4234.069,"text":"所以這部分的話造成就是說大家隨便亂說看到什麼訊息亂傳好像也沒有很大的一個阻止的這個力量所以這部分我在想說這部分的話我們也不能夠讓外交部的辛苦的這個辛勞這些心血毀在這些人的謠言當中所以這部分我在想說罰則的部分是不是應該要來加重我面對這個我想這應該也不是影響公共之安寧這也是影響到這個國家"},{"start":4235.849,"end":4253.702,"text":"國家的信譽 針對外交部來講應該也是一個很大的傷害是 部長再來因為時間的關係我想請教一下就是說我有看到明年我們的歐洲外交的預算增加的幅度比往年來的高"},{"start":4254.262,"end":4257.123,"text":"像歐洲它有一個加強雙邊及多邊合作在114年編列的預算是3.64億到了115年我們編列了12.97億總共增加了9點多億"},{"start":4272.188,"end":4286.606,"text":"那我們增加的幅度算是很高的我想請教一下未來的一年我們在歐洲外交上面是不是有一個比較特殊的計畫到底這個經費增加這麼高我們未來我們想要呈現一個怎麼樣的成果"},{"start":4287.427,"end":4309.982,"text":"報告委員因為單單歐盟就27個國家如果加英國還有未加入歐盟的那是30幾個國家這個預算一除其實一個國家很有限那我們在歐洲地區也有31個管處很多都變成兩人管說實在真的很難運作那現在全世界都想跟台灣來往這主要當然一方面談一下重要性越來越高"},{"start":4310.822,"end":4331.243,"text":"另外一個就是因為俄烏戰爭之後大家都知道大家理念相近的國家互相會來交流合作再來就是大家也發現中國的因素中國是俄羅斯背後可以說是一個贏武者或者是關鍵的推手那對台灣所面對到的這個"},{"start":4333.066,"end":4357.697,"text":"共的各種 不管是新常態 各種的混合戰大家都想要了解包括像海瀾的破壞等等所以我們去對應他們的時候尤其現在包括我們在推動總和外交有12個領域尤其最近我們看到文化外交 科技外交 智庫外交跟國會外交這四大領域因為歐洲是一個多元的社會是一個自由民主的國家"},{"start":4358.217,"end":4385.807,"text":"所以他可以跟台灣交流合作的事項非常的多所以這個時候呢我們怎麼去把握這個時機我們就成立一個歐洲專案那也包括榮邦計畫那當包括剛剛提到的中東歐所謂的供應鏈韌性的計畫我們也把它擴增到2.0除了捷克 斯洛伐克 立陶宛又包括波蘭以及其他的周邊國家所以這個確實啊需要比較多的預算包括還有人事緣額的增加另外我們要發揮總和外交就是要"},{"start":4387.166,"end":4402.224,"text":"區域性的 點線面的所謂區域聯防所以這一個預算如果分下去 比如邀訪我們邀訪歐洲的國會議員結果呢 可能一個館處邀請不到一兩次那就太可惜 國會外交我想委員們也非常的忙"},{"start":4403.405,"end":4420.462,"text":"不只是說出去他們來的時候你們也要接待所以這個我就希望同仁啊能夠給他們更多的這個支持包括重視程度以外人事的緣額還有預算都能夠增加那也要拜託這個大便的支持"},{"start":4421.258,"end":4435.328,"text":"是 這個部分我們會做支持因為畢竟這是台灣走進國際走進歐洲一個很重要的一個途徑你需要人 需要經費 需要互動所以說增加 但本其實認為說有增加的幅度這麼高"},{"start":4436.269,"end":4455.964,"text":"也許我們有一些過去我們沒有的一些計畫那希望就是說多一點了解那我也希望一時間的關係所以我是希望說這部分的話如果可以的話呢可以給我一個比較細節比較明細的一個書面的報告好不好OK我跟委員報告一下現在吳之中正是正在這個德國參加這個歐洲安全論壇"},{"start":4461.028,"end":4474.373,"text":"而且上台演講他也進入到法國包括他們國會裡面跟友台小組會面所以這個都是很大的突破剛剛委員因為有個表裡面缺少了最新的所以我做點補充謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4499.84,"end":4502.729,"text":"主席有請林部長部長"},{"start":4509.022,"end":4532.265,"text":"部长您早刚才听取部长的报告我们站在整体国家的利益的角度来看我们很多地方要大力支持但也有些现象我们发现可能我力有所不在或经费所不足或者人才尚不够这个要大家共同努力一起来精进我先把这个话题带回到2013年"},{"start":4534.406,"end":4551.02,"text":"為什麼美中的這個角力競合實際上是2013年的一帶一路啟動一開始叫One Belt One RoadOBOR後來改稱BRI他利用這個計畫是他的一個大戰略他把整個從"},{"start":4552.501,"end":4566.671,"text":"中亞到中東到部分歐洲甚至到非洲的市場他希望主導他主導的市場那就掌握了地緣經濟不只是這個銷售量政治影響力地緣經濟 地緣戰略"},{"start":4568.925,"end":4590.282,"text":"通通都想抓到手上那么他也借着他的产品产业制造规格规范再加上他的铁路公路桥梁一路出去他的工人全部出去在地制造他的影响力那川普总统的第一任在2017年他看到了这个问题了"},{"start":4591.022,"end":4614.147,"text":"所以他启动了自由开放印太的战略那光有一个战略不足于是他又启动了一个自由印太经济框架IPF所以从2013年到2017年到川普这一次的回任第二任总统他一上来4月2号他讲了这个对等关税啊"},{"start":4615.151,"end":4636.133,"text":"并不只是经济的问题它是国安问题因为是国安的问题它就把谈判过程中实际上也就是把地缘经济地缘政治地缘战略都纠结在一起了所以我们外交部的同仁在国外的工作其实你的范畴是涵盖了这三个领域"},{"start":4637.096,"end":4656.916,"text":"那么我很支持所谓的这个融帮计划总和计划这种构想那诚如刚才我向您提出的建议就是除了我们在预算要增加但是要有效的运用就像刚才您讲的在外站许多的点站只有两人三人"},{"start":4657.737,"end":4672.304,"text":"那實際上是忙不過來的那我可以從一個數字來給您回報就是我們的韓院長在這邊不到兩年的時間因為我們外交部同仁的努力他已經接待了超過4000餘位來訪的"},{"start":4675.345,"end":4697.6,"text":"包括国会的 学者的 智库的那相对前面在游锡坤院长的四年才三千多个也就是说韩院长接见外宾的数字反映出我们外交部同仁努力的成果但是呢显然还是有人力不足啦预算不足啦那因为听到了您刚才这个报告我们下张图啊"},{"start":4698.3,"end":4720.614,"text":"就是根据您的这个内容我昨天晚上把它整理一下消化一下我们现在面临的挑战是我们台美经贸谈判跟北京对我们政治持续施压那么如何强化国际社会的交流合作降低国家承受政经冲击的风险这是挑战我们有"},{"start":4721.69,"end":4750.149,"text":"策略有目的有方法我们有手段我们把它decompose要善用既有的优势基础所以我们不是纯粹只谈地缘经济或地缘政治包括布局的地缘战略跟产业链跟民主优势我们强化跟美国的伙伴关系当然我们对自己内部来讲我们还是要有一些谈判的筹码落实旗舰计划的产业尤其是高端半导体"},{"start":4751.499,"end":4765.717,"text":"网络数位的治理新能源智慧医疗新农业主权AI永续观光的核心聚焦台湾科技发展能力跟专业专长的输出那么持续经济繁荣的愿景"},{"start":4767.028,"end":4783.543,"text":"强化经贸科技医疗农业输出与国家的合作提升台湾作为全球经济民主发展不可缺席的伙伴那我们最后要做出两个建议我们所谓的外交实际上就是内政的延伸而农业"},{"start":4784.644,"end":4811.311,"text":"與衛福是我們內政的基礎我們政府的各部會縱向指導 橫向協調這個要強化因為我們還是沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略就是說政策指導從上到下是很明確但是橫向協調受限於很多的因素那麼外交的作戰在這個作業上正顯示出一個重要的平台跨領域 跨部會尤其是對外"},{"start":4812.051,"end":4829.994,"text":"那这个是作为加值外交的坚强后盾那面对国际局势冲击的风险编例预算只是因应的方法之一我们最主要就是希望我们外交的人才外管人才还要扩大因为接触越多你的业务负荷越重"},{"start":4830.615,"end":4856.991,"text":"那加上我们外馆有些很多的杰出的都是女性非常杰出但也有在作业女性也有不方便的地方所以可能在local employee在地的男性我们要有经费做出一些在地工作协调上复合上的帮忙那我想我提出这个建言我请这个部长您做一些回应我们看看如何将来继续整合"},{"start":4858.431,"end":4885.201,"text":"謝謝委員 很敬佩我想你可以把我們的總和外交跟龍邦計畫濃縮在一張圖表裡面我請我們同仁 特別是顏社會我們稍微借用一下然後重新去整理我覺得這樣是非常清楚然後這個方法論的指導非常感謝那事實上在龍邦計畫上面有一個總和外交那是在"},{"start":4886.101,"end":4909.212,"text":"如果它是這個羅盤的話 總和外交 那三鏈戰略就是指針然後它去對接我們的對象國家所以您剛剛提到不管是台美中 這最重要的三角或是擴大到包括日本歐洲 甚至全球南方我們就有一個戰略的一個架構來指導外交"},{"start":4910.092,"end":4938.652,"text":"外交也是整個戰略的一部分那接下來就是說我們的總和外交因為量的增加當然很重要包括人啦預算可是值的提升也很重要所以我們希望整合協作所以部部都是外交部人人都是外交官由此公私協力啊讓台灣走向世界那這個時候呢我們講的三鏈戰略就是去鏈結看對方國家跟我們哪裡有交集這不是我們去拜託他是他國家也想做的"},{"start":4939.272,"end":4957.712,"text":"那這個樣子比如說援助變成投資的夥伴關係那不是援助的這種開發中國家屬於比較進步的國家我們什麼跟他鏈接呢台灣是位於所謂印太第一島鏈這個是安全跟同盟的這種外交台灣也是非紅供應鏈"},{"start":4959.212,"end":4975.087,"text":"的最重要我們的晶片AI等等這一個第三個台灣也是全球民主價值鏈對抗歐亞大陸的這個入權國家要做海權的擴張的時候我們台灣可以說是一個這個"},{"start":4978.749,"end":4994.154,"text":"砝碼會決定包括美中抗衡的結果所以在這種情況之下我們台灣有什麼好東西可以跟人家分享而也帶來我們的能夠走向國際去更跟大家結合在一起越結合任性就越強所以這裡面有八大龍幫計畫"},{"start":4995.834,"end":4999.778,"text":"是反映在三鏈戰略裡面去鏈接它比如半導體供應的韌性那麼這個可信賴網路跟數位治理還有包括新能源跟探權以及我們的智慧科技園區這種解決方案再包括智慧醫療跟健康產業智慧新農業當然也包括這個主權AI另外就是永續觀光"},{"start":5019.218,"end":5025.181,"text":"所以整個我們可以找出對方的交集所以很多的國家現在看到台灣都當作一個可以幫他國家發展比如說我們現在美國優先在工業化要投資那美國要偉大台灣也可以跟著偉大雙贏的事情我們趕快來做雙輸的事情不要做他贏我輸我們盡量慢慢來做他輸我贏我們不要我們可以慢慢可以私下的做"},{"start":5048.851,"end":5073.236,"text":"所以這個跟日本也是一樣也是要三鏈去鏈結跟歐洲尤其空間最大因為歐洲有三個因素台灣的重要性越來越重要是可以對他們的再工業化再武裝歐洲有幫助另外就是說俄羅斯的威脅不管戰爭結果如何持續都在而背後是中國所以台灣的經驗以及台灣怎麼樣跟他們戰略上可以合縱連橫這個雖然地理很遠"},{"start":5076.63,"end":5093.096,"text":"可是現實上就是互相影響現在全球可以說是同一盤棋那台灣不要是把台海問題看作一個只是兩岸關係或區域的問題它是一個全球性都關注的焦點那以這樣的一個"},{"start":5094.156,"end":5120.085,"text":"架構然後根據剛剛委員所提到的再來充實你們的內容因為戰略的話是要有目標你也要有策略而更要有能夠支持去實現目標策略的資源所以我們的能力多少我們才能夠達到目標不然目標高遠但是我們沒有足夠的緣額編制還有各種的整合那事實上目標也要跟著修正因為"},{"start":5120.925,"end":5136.104,"text":"不可能是變成一廂情願所以這個東西來來往往就構成了我們外交的戰略 謝謝我最後再提一個簡單的建議就是目前與我們還維持有邦交的南太平洋島國的國家因為他們的科技發展比較"},{"start":5137.185,"end":5152.149,"text":"落后我想这个部分外交部能够协助在AI的技术因为我们跟他通讯除了卫星以外几乎是海岚就沉入你刚才讲的在这几个面向上我们要跟这几个维持友邦的关系要持续加强合作"},{"start":5152.834,"end":5181.234,"text":"對 我覺得這些國家也想彎道超車也想後來居上因為我們的解決方案包括AI包括大數據比如說遠距的醫療AI的精準的醫療這些其實都可以讓他們國家國人的健康得到照顧而對我們來講也可以走向世界有更多的這一個商機因為這個成功的模式就可以未來複製到其他的海洋島國好 謝謝部長我們大家共同努力 謝謝"},{"start":5186.24,"end":5189.165,"text":"謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長請林部長"},{"start":5208.939,"end":5227.013,"text":"部長在你接任部長之後推動的龍幫外交包含統合外交已經呈現出有所績效那當然這一次本席首先要感謝外交部對於原民外交的重視"},{"start":5228.394,"end":5245.59,"text":"所以今年六月本席在首次赴我们的关岛以关岛总督部落领袖包含市长及议长关岛大学教授及侨胞就政治文化与侨界进行交流为了回应"},{"start":5247.429,"end":5274.283,"text":"古雷路總督的熱情邀請再於上週協調國內約十幾家的企業訪問關島當然這個也是感謝我們的外交部的安排尋找投資的一個機會以建立台關之間的互利的專營這當中外交部的鼎力相助在居中協調功不可沒"},{"start":5275.523,"end":5289.59,"text":"那經過這兩側的交流本席發現古雷路總督特別關心的是什麼就是反覆提起其中的一個議題就是關於台北至關島的直飛航班"},{"start":5290.771,"end":5320.511,"text":"那這個議題在今年五月古雷路總督訪台的時候他也向賴總統提出由關島提供激勵措施及優惠價格吸引台灣的航空公司建立飛往關島的固定航班的想法那本期在六月十九號外交國防委員會執行時問外交部對於台關執航的想法當時部長也給了一個正面的一個回應那表示"},{"start":5321.061,"end":5335.646,"text":"基於觀光旅遊及醫療轉診的需要會協調國內的航空公司希望能夠有定期的航班飛往來回關島之間部長 是你的想法"},{"start":5337.587,"end":5356.058,"text":"有什麼樣的進度或是碰到什麼樣的困難台灣跟關島之間還有很大發展的空間因為美軍的駐軍增加然後在地緣政治上台灣跟關島的關係也在加強"},{"start":5358.123,"end":5375.04,"text":"我們就是要交流一定要有飛機不管客運或貨運所以我們先協調了華航做了三個月的在這個今年初的包機直航然後我們也協調當然包括就是像新宇他們如果再增加一班的話"},{"start":5376.281,"end":5393.833,"text":"還是有可能這個可以在比較夜間的時間另外就是當然美國的航空公司他們如果有商機他們當然也會飛而這裡面有一個很重要除了觀光客之外就是醫療轉整台灣有龐大的醫療資源我們如果能夠為太平洋導國"},{"start":5395.074,"end":5415.292,"text":"都來台灣接受最好的治療物美價廉我們照顧他們的國家的領導人或者是人民的時候他也會感謝我們這個對邦交會有幫助至於說如果投資因為現在投資美國關稅的問題關島也是可以到美國也是算美國的領土所以怎麼去鼓勵台商投資關島"},{"start":5417.013,"end":5439.931,"text":"這個都可以算進去台灣投資美國退反之所以現在就是最重要的就是直航的班級為什麼交通便携是所有交流的一個基礎那第二個現在關島及西的就是剛剛你所提的就是醫療轉整的這個部分第二現在他們及西是農業跟水產業這一次我們參訪我帶著這個"},{"start":5442.293,"end":5470.698,"text":"當然那個時候是因為我本來帶隊因為我們宴會裡面的一個大會所以我就不能去當然有外交部這一些工作人員的安排之下他們到了關島的時候他受惠了非常的多了解了整個關島的整個地形地物地貌包含地方的投資的環境那後來古雷路總督希望能夠第一個就是能夠把直航的這些班機是不是趕快"},{"start":5471.238,"end":5484.113,"text":"跟我們中華航空因為現在是美國航空在做一個一個星期才一班那是因為疫情的因素過去裡面都發生了但是在2019年的時候"},{"start":5486.415,"end":5513.604,"text":"去那邊關島旅遊的將近兩萬九千多個疫情以後去年的十一月開始有直飛那這個直飛裡面就已經呈現成長的過程所以今天要突破的是第一個我們中華航空是不是有可以珍惜直航直飛那第二個就是在投資的企業的意願會增加"},{"start":5515.044,"end":5543.231,"text":"這也是骨雷路來到我們拜訪總統之後那總統也對著關島對他們的訴求也非常的重視所以在你的執政今天的外交部長能夠會有這樣的一個看法就等於是對於整個全球的原民外交的重視這一點我予以肯定部長我補充一下其實台灣去投資關島是很有商機"},{"start":5544.471,"end":5572.298,"text":"他除了未來駐軍增加的需求以外其實在農業方面就是尤其是那種垂直農場包括水耕因為他需要大量的糧食包括軍隊包括觀光客養殖業也是然後再來就是說他在美國他也免稅嘛所以這個工業區的開發另外就是觀光業其實已經有投資好幾家可是有一些法令涉及到他們美國本土有一些"},{"start":5572.978,"end":5576.96,"text":"這個所謂的比較稀有或為動物的保護可是那個在關島很多啦就是某種青蛙所以這個很多的開發遇到困難因為環評啦所以我也跟古蓮霍總督講他說沒有問題因為他很清楚這個問題所以他一定要幫忙解決"},{"start":5591.246,"end":5611.139,"text":"所以現在突破直航的問題直航就是我們來協調航空公司因為這幾年我們的航空公司都想飛不能飛就是因為飛機不夠因為整個疫情期間還有過去採購的延緩交貨然後另外就是要新訂的大家很競爭那其他的航線也"},{"start":5611.959,"end":5636.653,"text":"會有這個取代性所以我去協調就是說在既有的時間就是說我們的這個所謂的Time slot這個時間裡面還有沒有空檔可以再多飛一班那有航空公司有表示是可以的他們剛天的最後一班還可以再加飛到關島我想紫航的這一些觀光客到那個地方已經明顯的成長了所以這個顯見出來的所以我請部長來積極"},{"start":5641.155,"end":5669.076,"text":"我跟委員在補充其實客運往往不會賺但是貨運會賺所以這一架飛機它有客貨運那確實也有要做可是現在這飛機供不應求但是我們在協調我也會請北美斯回去再跟我們已經有協調過的航空公司看能不能趕快來補這個空缺因為上半年是比較多但是有一些像華航它一季之後就沒有辦法再續飛了我們希望有其他航空公司也可以跟進"},{"start":5669.616,"end":5685.105,"text":"好 因為實驗因素那我想說再提出一個一些想法是推動南投共同體的以原名外交是本席給自己一個任務跟旗行所以也希望在我們國際上有更多的一個推展的空間藉著原住民"},{"start":5686.646,"end":5708.934,"text":"這個南島語系的國家連結達到低調 突圍以關島的往來只是一個理念的第一步一個起點不敢說成果豐碩那至少探索出一個可嘗試的一個路線當然我也是替外交部敲敲門敲敲門這個路線可不可以走"},{"start":5709.494,"end":5737.432,"text":"那我想這一次我必須要講就是我們具有了解我們園民會明年計畫組團到出訪到巴拉圭那就是要在以園民外交上有所貢獻那根據統計巴拉圭國民中原住民人口也有14萬人口左右且國民有百分之 具有90%難道與系族的血統上個月巴拉圭眾議院"},{"start":5738.553,"end":5758.455,"text":"拉多連議長來訪的到立法院的時候本席也和議長及訪團訪團貴賓交換不少的這個言明議題的議題來看法讓本席驚訝的是巴拉圭的原住民雖然不是主流人口但官方言衷且使用當地的原住民語音"},{"start":5759.577,"end":5774.192,"text":"瓜拉尼主流的非原住民且廣泛使用非原住民人口的原住民漁可見原住民讓遺體讓巴拉圭獲得重視的程度所以這一次因為我想"},{"start":5774.933,"end":5798.594,"text":"建議我們外交部希望可能圓明會的想法出訪到巴拉圭在資源上能夠多以益助我想他們在這一次的出訪也就是以圓明外交統合外交包含龍幫計畫的外交我想這是一個好事能夠促成能夠讓圓明會出訪成功但經費有限請部長"},{"start":5799.255,"end":5818.631,"text":"多支持這樣的想法是 因為總和外交有12個重點其中原住民外交就是指以它除了南島 嶼西 海洋的國家陸地的國家其實全世界包括加拿大 澳洲 紐西蘭他們的原住民外交都非常重要而且包括他們經濟社會的權利包括這一些各種的文化"},{"start":5819.791,"end":5843.505,"text":"這個語言的保存跟怎麼去發揚所以台灣有非常好的經驗那我們會再跟原民會有雙部長會議最近就會召開那針對這個項目我們會找出來怎麼樣整合兩個部會的力量一起來推動原住民外交我想這個太好了我想剛剛我們陳永康委員特別提出來我們現在的優勢AI的優勢包含晶片的優勢這樣的一個注入到在各個一個"},{"start":5847.207,"end":5867.251,"text":"這樣的以嚴明外交包含聯繫南東以西的民主裡面來講的話是一個讓我們國內能夠走出去展現我們國際的一些亮能跟包含我們的一個亮度好不好好 謝謝委員也謝謝兩位無論所大使也是任志明的大使 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳冠宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5877.112,"end":5879.795,"text":"陳俊宇 不好意思 不好意思 抱歉 陳俊宇委員好 謝謝召委 我們有請加農部長請林部長部長早"},{"start":5898.539,"end":5921.284,"text":"部長 我們因應地緣政治的變局跟挑戰我們需要更多元的面向來拓展我們的外交工作除了外交部持續在推動總和外交及融方計畫如何能結合台灣的優勢深化國際合作的發展對我們來說也是非常重要"},{"start":5921.98,"end":5947.354,"text":"若能透過各領域的一個合作協助我們邦交國或是友好的這些國家發展更能夠發揮人人都是外交官的這個精神來強化我們跟友邦之間的一個實質關係接續我想跟部長您來做一個討論就是外交這個替代役的這個制度實施的部分今年已經邁入第25屆"},{"start":5948.578,"end":5978.381,"text":"那包括我們這個疾管署這個羅益君署長他也是第一屆的這個外交替代役那也是他成為這個防疫醫師的一個非常好的契機那我們這些藝男在服役的服勤的這個期間他除了需要發揮自身的一個專長專業之外同時也代表著我們台灣的青年去進行交流對國家來說也是培育涉外人才的一個重要的一個管道"},{"start":5979.551,"end":5990.998,"text":"我想請教部長就是外交替代役在實施這麼多年來我們如何來評估它的成效其中有多少藝男在退伍之後投入到外交工作的這個領域當中"},{"start":5992.758,"end":6013.654,"text":"好 報告委員確實台灣的青年外交讓青年走出去也讓我們的邦交或友好國家的青年走進台灣其實對長期來講的外交是很重要因為年輕人他有未來他有個國際經驗的時候他所有的家人親友甚至他事業的夥伴未來會對台灣會變成他會變一個橋樑那我們在外交替代役現在遇到一個問題"},{"start":6019.838,"end":6034.478,"text":"也就是我們的兵役又恢復到從四個月變一年之後那本來是因為兵役後來說短成四個月所以他再加六個月可以做外交替代役可是現在如果說可以選擇很多人都要選擇外交替代役那另外就是體位的問題"},{"start":6035.319,"end":6057.448,"text":"不要說變成好像是體位比較差的才去他志在這個天下的時候醫療 農業 還有知通訊這三樣是我看過對我們現在的農幫計畫可以說最大的幫助那青年人他當兵我們這個相對來講我們的薪資也是就負擔比較輕而他人生的投資未來"},{"start":6058.608,"end":6077.548,"text":"這一個現在有幾個計畫我在整合包括獎學金制度學人的這個制度以外也包括國際青年大使農業青年大使外交小兼兵另外就是國會會的志工再加上外交替代"},{"start":6078.169,"end":6095.022,"text":"那外交替代一出去之後比如說我去巴拉圭看到我們建立了醫療資訊系統就是我們的這一些有醫學背景的人去幫忙那這個HIS這個系統建立之後對他智慧醫療就是一個基礎建設很重要那同樣的那一些農漁業我們的技術團我們的年輕人在那邊都好健康"},{"start":6099.625,"end":6126.701,"text":"有些還都決定繼續留下來所以續簽外交替代役後來續簽我們國會的專案或者是我們的聘僱人員很多這個比例如果總共加起來應該有將近五成之多那現在遇到這個問題說我有跟總統報告請示也得到行政院支持現在包括內政部國防部正在跟外交部研究怎麼樣讓外交替代役不但不會停止而且還可以擴大"},{"start":6128.223,"end":6135.549,"text":"這個就是我們現在總和外交的一部分那人才的培養是雙向的所以我們現在總統有一個叫青年海外圓夢計畫百億的計畫我們在挑選台灣的青年走向國際的時候我們也給我們12個友邦國家的年輕人也可以給他們圓夢來台灣另外也可以有些專案性的比如說我們剛剛講八大籠幫計畫裡面有一些他們國家人才的培訓可以透過這個專案的申請"},{"start":6156.826,"end":6169.99,"text":"那也可跨國一起來橫向的還有之間跟台灣的這個交流合作所以我就覺得他的這個所謂的CP值是很高那我認為這個計畫我們會加強再推動最近包括國會包括我們的NGO事務會包括相關國經師各個地域師我們現在在北中南"},{"start":6178.993,"end":6203.093,"text":"也在培訓台灣有志於走向國際的年輕人才因為他要出去也是要具備一些基本能力那有志於國際外交的年輕人他不一定來考外交官那事實上很多外交替代後來來考我們外交部的外交官是我們很重要人才的來源那就算沒有的話他人生裡面階段有個一年或多久想要去國外服務我舉個例子"},{"start":6204.144,"end":6228.747,"text":"我們在聖克里斯多福尼維斯有十個名額給台灣在總理辦公室一位外交部長那邊有三位其他就是他政府裡面的各部會甚至他的國際組織所以我們台灣透過邦交國走向國際組織這個台灣因為不能參加聯合國跟很多的國際組織所以這個就變成了另外一個我們不只是說跟他之間雙向的關係而透過他代表"},{"start":6229.887,"end":6242.795,"text":"這個走向國際這個也是另辟蹊徑我們發現這個效果是異常的好部長您回答得非常的詳細對於這個我們替代役的部分另外一個問題就是說"},{"start":6244.555,"end":6259.91,"text":"剛剛部長您也大概說明了一下我們因為現在疫情的關係一直在這個做調整那未來如果我們這個替代役的這個藝男他因為人數的源耳問題還有他疫情縮短的話那甚至"},{"start":6262.349,"end":6284.583,"text":"這個會不會影響到我們未來整個外交關係我們這個替代役沒辦法去加入這些人員來幫忙跟委員報告我們已經跟跨部會協調大家都支持就是如果現在兵役一年他還是可以有外交替代役現在那個體位我們希望不要是就是好像是"},{"start":6285.757,"end":6304.436,"text":"剩下的才可以啦我自己一定比例是他有這個志願我們就可以出去所以我們今年當然29個嘛還在那因為兵役是一年還需要一個時間去轉換那這個部分我們也在思考除了一年以外有沒有再可以加幾個月"},{"start":6306.478,"end":6320.53,"text":"這樣子的話增加 因為你培養的人才結果出國只有幾個月 馬上就結束 也很可惜讓他可以有選擇 比如說可以變一年六個月他再加這六個月之後 可能效果會更好但怎麼樣去設計這個 我們正在跟內政部 兵役司 還有國防部因為他涉及兵源的來源 來做討論"},{"start":6330.399,"end":6357.072,"text":"那另外剛剛部長您也提到這個國和會的部分我們現在目前這個國和會在海外服務工作也行之有年那其中在國內大專院校合作推動的這個大專青年海外技術協助服務的計畫在今年則是進入第七年而今年這個報名錄取的人數似乎是創新高那錄取人數從19位增加到30位而且還看到這個"},{"start":6358.572,"end":6375.14,"text":"實習生 志工 還有華語的老師37名目前陸陸續續都已經加入我們海外的這個服務那我想請教部長 這項實習計畫是因為我們有幫國家所提出的這個人才需求增加還是我們這邊主動擴大我們要戶外服務的人數"},{"start":6376.127,"end":6393.017,"text":"我們有主動跟他們討論來擴大事實上我們也在思考除了邦交國非邦交國跟我們理念相近我們過去是比較少比如像菲律賓這麼重要一個很大的國家像中東歐這些國家其實都可以再擴大這個員額那是不是我請國會會秘書長跟大家說明一下這個最新的一個數字相關的"},{"start":6401.421,"end":6430.202,"text":"不管是外交替代役或者是這些志工好 請黃秘書長謝謝委員我們最近名額的增加是兩方面剛剛部長有解釋過是一個是邦交國的需求的增加另外是我們主動有提出一些協調那目前的計畫我們在執行上我們是希望說將來這種實習生的實習的期間還可以再更加的延長"},{"start":6432.651,"end":6452.393,"text":"延長之後我們希望可以達到像我們外交替代役目前的成果外交替代役已經形成了我們國會外派人員將近三分之一的人力而且我們的主管包括團長跟計劃經理團長占三分之一是這個外交替代役的背景"},{"start":6453.513,"end":6479.921,"text":"計劃經理也有四分之一這些主管所以我們如果在期間上面可以加以延長培養一些人才不只在國和會事實上他們很多人之後都考進外交部經濟部還有我們現在的農業部也是進到政府來服務所以我們希望可以延長他們的期間另外我們會形成一個比較大的平台"},{"start":6481.201,"end":6487.876,"text":"把這些人把它聚集在一起有一個繼續學習的一個平台好 謝謝米蘇"},{"start":6488.935,"end":6514.388,"text":"不管是我們台灣的青年或是海外進行交流的相關服務未來有機會培養出更多的這些色外的工作人才或是友邦的這些青年能夠回到家鄉去貢獻他們所學在台灣所感受到的情感未來能夠作為促進我們跟其他國家雙邊關係的一個"},{"start":6517.742,"end":6530.79,"text":"那我想這是我們未來在推動相關外交工作上的一個重點也請我們外交部跟相關單位能夠持續的來為我們這部分注入更多的心力好 謝謝部長"},{"start":6546.906,"end":6560.595,"text":"我們下一位質詢請馬文君委員馬文君請謝謝主席麻煩請林部長好謝謝"},{"start":6568.174,"end":6584.788,"text":"委員好部長早部長今天我們相關的議題不過大家還是看到現在整個國際局勢尤其我們的外交面向也非常的廣我們看到上個月上旬美國參議院有通過年度大法"},{"start":6585.308,"end":6594.077,"text":"就是國防授權法案那在法案的內容對於我們的支持當然也有很多的部分那外交部我想請教部長有掌握哪些部分因為在裡面有強烈建議美國國防部長在適當的情況之下要邀請台灣海軍參與環太平洋軍演甚至要求如果"},{"start":6607.972,"end":6628.455,"text":"美國國防部長不邀請也必須要說明其中的理由基於參眾兩院都有這樣的強烈支持的情況之下現在就只剩下美國政府的態度國軍參與由美軍主導的環太平洋軍演"},{"start":6628.955,"end":6633.517,"text":"其實一直是國人的期待因為我們除了自製的武器裝備以外多數其實都是美製的所以如果說可以再強化國軍的一些鏈結然後在台灣海峽周遭國家武裝部隊之間的聯合作戰增加我們的國防實力當然也是我們最大的期待那就這一次我們駐美的外館對這個事情持續發展有沒有掌握有"},{"start":6658.928,"end":6684.219,"text":"目前目前當然因為美國的印太司令部啦實際上跟我們印太第一島鏈的各國都有很多包括軍事的條約或像台灣關係法這些制度那當然因為一旦有什麼事情包括人道救援或是有一些可能的戰爭那這個平常很多都要去做一些演練那台灣當然希望跟這個能夠有一些"},{"start":6685.679,"end":6689.443,"text":"部長 時間的關係因為我們想要知道的是過去參加環太平洋軍演其實我們一直希望可以參與不過這一次因為剛好參眾兩院已經講得比較強烈他們甚至要求說如果沒有邀請我們去參與他必須要說明理由我們想要知道"},{"start":6707.318,"end":6716.943,"text":"我們的駐美的這個管處他掌握到什麼程度或者更簡單的可以請教部長國軍可以獲得美軍邀請的機率有多少這樣比較快"},{"start":6718.519,"end":6739.139,"text":"這是當然你問我認為他邀我的機率我們當然希望他按照通過了這個參議院的這個就是我們講的這個國防授權法案的參眾兩院通過的國防授權法案的決議自己怎麼做比較好因為這個也涉及到他們行政部門"},{"start":6740.18,"end":6749.308,"text":"我們當然是希望能夠有機會參加在正式參加之前也有很多怎麼樣去大家能夠有交流合作的機會能夠開始"},{"start":6751.65,"end":6755.512,"text":"部長我們為什麼會這麼問是因為特別因為我們每次都一直在美化說國防授權法對我們非常好然後在不管武器裝備的出售就是同意多少軍售尤其像這一次就是環太平洋軍演的這個部分我們如果說我們一直都說我們的關係一直有進展我們都非常好"},{"start":6775.2,"end":6802.47,"text":"然後甚至我們也邀請非常多的國會議員也都到台灣來其實他們到現在在台灣的那個機率也非常高可是我們要的是實質的因為外交有很多我們付出了所有相關的這些努力以後我們希望要實質對我們有幫助的不會像是那個我們駐美的大使余大磊其實我們現在整個國防支出不斷地在增加當中"},{"start":6803.75,"end":6817.405,"text":"駐美大使余大磊曾經對媒體說台灣為了展現抵禦侵略的決心花多少錢都不是問題這是外交部授權給余大使對外說的嗎說花多少錢都不是問題這是授權給他說的嗎"},{"start":6820.031,"end":6832.195,"text":"因為他有前後文我有詳細去看過他前後文是什麼可以這麼說台灣要展現自我防衛的能力即使展現自我防衛的能力你要的也是要有效的一個武器裝備所以不是說幾趴幾趴的問題而是說我們怎麼樣能夠有防衛台灣的能力需要的軍購這樣來談而不是所謂一定要是幾趴幾趴的問題"},{"start":6844.175,"end":6869.309,"text":"不是幾%對我們都非常重要今天如果我是說我的理解他的講法不是說我們不能理解他的想法因為他對外的任何一句話或者他要用到我們國內所有相關的資源其實他都必須要做深切的考量因為他不是一般人他是駐美代表所以這一句話由他講出來他必須要負擔這樣的責任今天如果說我們環太平洋軍演"},{"start":6870.37,"end":6873.772,"text":"參眾兩院都已經這麼高度的支持我們也沒有辦法讓美國的行政單位可以美國政府可以做這樣的邀請那他的效益其實沒有實質的幫助所以不是你說我們花多少錢都沒有問題我想要請教部長如果我們不斷的增加我們國防預算甚至如果我們高達一兆以上現在已經是囉我們明年9500億的預算再加上"},{"start":6896.826,"end":6918.397,"text":"一千多億的特別預算已經高達一兆一千多億如果這樣的預算已經在我們總預算三塊錢就一塊錢花在國防上這樣子的部分你必須犧牲掉的是什麼我們今天未還也在這裡我們的農業也在這裡我們有很多包括我們的社會福利包括我們的醫療包括我們的基礎建設這些我們的"},{"start":6920.658,"end":6928.301,"text":"能夠相對的支出越來越少的情況之下我請教部長如果我們的軍費增加到這麼高以後外交部的預算把它減下來可不可以不可以為什麼你們大家每個都說不可以衛福不可以嗎我們所有的醫療我們所有的衛生我們所有的相關的這些福利我們可以減少我們的預算嗎"},{"start":6944.483,"end":6966.826,"text":"因為我們太多重要的民生業務也不可以農業部剛剛在現在去哪裡農業部我們台灣也是一個農業非常發達的國家我們有很多農民要照顧我們有很多農業政策如果我們刪減我們的農業預算你覺得可以嗎委員最支持台灣農業了所以應該不會刪減"},{"start":6968.027,"end":6973.789,"text":"不會嗎好 在座的三個大部會你們都不願意刪減那我們的餅就這麼大然後你不斷地把國防的支出不斷地放大我們不知道它到底是否符合我們的需求能不能做我們安全防衛最有效最到位的這樣的支出你們都不願意減少那減什麼啊那你要刪哪一個預算三塊就有一塊要放到國防預算裡面"},{"start":6996.932,"end":7013.141,"text":"所以大使這樣的講話是對的嗎今天兩位請回所以我們現在要講的是這個部分我們希望你今天在尤其在美國你可以隨便這樣講話請余大使他以後對官邸的花費要節減一點就好了這應該是比較快的"},{"start":7016.284,"end":7035.886,"text":"在這裡剛剛部長你也沒有辦法提到說我們環太平洋軍演即使美國這麼高度支持都已經通過國防授權法案然後參眾兩院也這麼支持的情況之下我們都還是飄渺未定所以我想在接下來請教就是CPTPP現在是我們最大的期待"},{"start":7037.187,"end":7040.788,"text":"因為面對美國對於像現在整個關稅戰的問題那其他國家大部分也都陸續解決大概也都有一個初步的框架或結果那可是我們看到我們台灣到目前為止我們大概都不知道不是大概我們完全不知道我們的進展到底是怎麼樣我們先談CPTPP在11月20應該就今天吧對"},{"start":7066.252,"end":7084.657,"text":"會有主席國澳洲在墨爾本他會舉行第九屆這個部長級的執委會其實我們會很快就知道哪一個申請國的入會工作小組會被統一成立我想請教我們台灣會嗎我們在爭取中今天已經會知道結果那機會有多大"},{"start":7085.885,"end":7111.333,"text":"我們就極力爭取因為我們派了三個我們派了次長到了澳洲日本跟英國去溝通在今年那另外我們也透過友好國家幫我們能夠說話另外也有一些提案可能來增加我們成立工作小組的機會那至於說他這個基於什麼樣的考量會有哪些國家放進來成立工作小組是一個還是同時多個這個我想他們會在大會裡面做個決定"},{"start":7114.934,"end":7137.372,"text":"那如果說有多個那台灣還沒有被排入部長怎麼看那我們當然也會有建議他們應該要有一些積極的作為因為台灣是符合所謂奧克蘭三原則這裡面最重要高標準沒有不良記錄之後再來就共識決我相信這些我們都符合不贊成某國參加的成立工作小組要續名理由啊"},{"start":7137.972,"end":7154.549,"text":"因為現在是說大家怕有壓力嘛因為大家都知道中國的態度所以這個時候要解除這些國家的壓力就是說他反對反對要寫理由的那要接受檢驗所以我們希望從這個角度有國家能夠提出說明來增加台灣成立工作小組的機會"},{"start":7155.43,"end":7171.243,"text":"如果對於中華民國不管在國際外交上面其實我相信國人都一致的支持所以剛剛您提到了兩個重點第一個就是其實國際現實因為如果不同意其實要寫理由可是以台灣目前的條件其實我們都達到這樣的一個條件門檻而且甚至我們標準是算是高的"},{"start":7177.248,"end":7186.415,"text":"可是我們如果還沒有被排入其實有很大的因素就是政治的影響力那這就是國際現實這是第一個我們也知道我們外交部在外面拓展的時候會面臨到這些相關的問題這個我們一定會全力支持可是不要只有內宣因為我們要的是你實質強力的訴求我們讓其他的成員國知道我們的條件優勢在哪裡可是我們也必須要扮演好外交的角色"},{"start":7205.751,"end":7209.134,"text":"所以外交的角色你不是只會對著一個國家喊那其他的國家對我們不夠好的時候我們完全不敢講話也不敢爭取這個對我們來說傷害才是最大的所以我們這一次看到今年比較特別的是在日本的主導之下CPTPP它成員國江惠和東協還有在紐西蘭跟加拿大的主導之下甚至跟歐盟也一起展開這樣第一次的合作對話會商討以後如何合作"},{"start":7235.515,"end":7238.684,"text":"也就是說東協跟歐盟這一次都會被邀請與會"},{"start":7240.755,"end":7264.653,"text":"東協、歐盟包括很多其他的這些國家其實都陸續在參與即使美國展開這個關稅戰大家都在尋找新的出路台灣最可怕的或最可悲的或讓大家最擔心的是我們可能會成為這樣的孤兒因為我們到目前為止沒有跟任何一個國家"},{"start":7265.674,"end":7267.736,"text":"簽訂比較完整的FAT所以這是最大的問題我們面對美國我們已經付出相當多的我們比任何國家我們付出的都還要多不管國防支出也好不管我們的原來的規定"},{"start":7281.112,"end":7290.255,"text":"要跟著去做調整然後還有我們付出的投資還有甚至我們的產業鏈都要移出這些在在還有包括我們的農產品農業其實都會受到很多的傷害跟影響這些我們都付出以後我們到底得到什麼這才是我們最大的擔心這個部分也是外交部應該要扮演更好的角色而不是只有在內部或者我們"},{"start":7306.119,"end":7325.377,"text":"編了預算可是都說有什麼樣的阻力尤其來自中國大陸的阻力這個從過去到現在都有可是我們現在面臨的困境會越來越深我們希望大家可以更熟悉我們的地緣政治還有我們的整個國際的發展這個部分部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":7325.977,"end":7350.138,"text":"我們先放開所謂的政治因素或中國的可能阻力其實我們做了一個調查報告台灣加入CPTPP對CPTPP國家的貢獻度這個最實在因為對他們有利結果他們又不讓台灣參加他們也會面對民意的檢驗另外我們也在成立這個所謂的工作小組的前期諮商因為在加拿大當這個主席國的時候已經有允許"},{"start":7350.618,"end":7370.376,"text":"台灣跟個別國家之間之商那上次委員問我嘛有一個那我們也在增加中另外參加了英國剛參加而英國也是大國所以我們認為從大國裡面有大概12個國家有一半像日本 英國 加拿大這些國家如果聲量大一點因為他們佔這個CPTPP裡面的所謂的經濟體的比例它是比較高的"},{"start":7375.762,"end":7390.504,"text":"這不能夠變成少數再否決多數而且傷害他們所有人的利益所以我們把這些資料都做了報告那也去溝通那也在希望能夠有多元的軌道能夠讓台灣可以成立工作小組才能展開實質的智商"},{"start":7391.291,"end":7400.785,"text":"部長我們都知道因為你剛剛講的這些另外委員報告還有獨安條款因為中共想參加但是其實加拿大跟墨西哥我讓你講很長的時間我意思是說中國想參加是很難的"},{"start":7406.534,"end":7411.855,"text":"但是他參加不了也不讓我們參加這是我們困難的地方但是我們要想辦法去解決陳如委員說說我們希望的就是你必須要去解決目前的這個問題那現在我們最後一個用一點時間不好意思我們過去跟美國在2023年1月在談判21世紀貿易倡議的時候美國的貿易代表署還特別安排了很多國會幕僚到台北來"},{"start":7431.94,"end":7435.421,"text":"那時候就是為了讓他們近距離可以第一手了解到談判的進程以利於後來他們會爭取他們就是國會的支持另外在貿易代表署裡面也在台北會晤了很多相關的利害關係人為什麼提到這個事情因為我們現在即使我們跟美國簽訂了保密協定可是民進黨政府在用這個保密協定來拒絕國會的監督"},{"start":7461.212,"end":7476.905,"text":"跟過去我們跟美國談判這個談判其實跟21世紀貿易倡議其實是完全不同的而且它涉及的是影響更大 層面更廣然後對我們整體的國安或者國家的發展其實是"},{"start":7478.106,"end":7483.791,"text":"更巨大的這一次他面臨到包括市場開放關稅降為零以及調整我們的規定去配合美國的規定甚至國防預算大幅增加等等其實這些重大的事項可是我們可以受到影響的這些產業他們有曾經被徵詢過嗎我們問起來完全沒有"},{"start":7499.605,"end":7525.295,"text":"我們看到對於像這樣子的一個狀況到現在都還是採取這樣子拒絕監督的狀態這個可能後座力會很強我們也不認為如果對台灣造成太大的傷害我們必須要全部吞下去這個部分我們今天特別提出來也希望外交部在這個部分也應該要扮演自己最好的角色因為我們看到好像都是國安的"},{"start":7526.816,"end":7540.759,"text":"這些相關的人員他們在進行談判這是不對的所以這個部分我們還是後續有相關的這些進展還是希望外交部掌握以後可以隨時做報告謝謝好 謝謝謝謝馬委員部長你喝口水好了休息一下"},{"start":7556.499,"end":7577.711,"text":"好 請王定宇委員發言 質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長有請林部長部長聊到來沒關係部長好 謝謝"},{"start":7585.91,"end":7610.158,"text":"在我開始今天題目之前我要提一件事情中國對台灣的國軍支通電軍軍情局 征戰局 新戰大隊以及我們的國會議員如沈博洋用他們政治的理由用他們中國的法令進行跨境鎮壓 藏弊管轄昨天我們委員會本席提案那委員會通過了一個提案譴責"},{"start":7612.139,"end":7629.286,"text":"中國這一種蠻橫的野蠻的行為那也聲援這一些被中國無理打壓的人那就中國做這個事情我們外交部對國際的發聲以及像我們昨天外交國防委員會通過這個決議外交部有什麼態度"},{"start":7631.65,"end":7646.086,"text":"我們外交部當然就因為中共是沒有管轄權而且他現在講的所謂透過這個國際刑警組織啊或所謂這些其實大家一定都了解有些事是他不是他一廂情願可以做的"},{"start":7646.747,"end":7662.442,"text":"可是作為外交部我們一定要了解就是說所有涉及到的國際條約或是跟中國簽的這些包括發表的聲明還有他過去有沒有這樣的案例以及我們去交涉的時候因為這裡面涉及到"},{"start":7663.123,"end":7689.465,"text":"有一些國家可能不是這麼法治 民主那種情形之下怎麼處理所以我們外管也啟動跟當地國家的交涉希望預防這個是我待會要問的我現在指的是說我們這事情政府有個態度嘛那個基本態度是中國管對台灣沒有司法管轄權你這種政治動作連interpol的審查都不會過那我們應該向國際發聲表達我們外交部不容許任何一個個人喔不管這個個人是誰"},{"start":7691.286,"end":7713.522,"text":"都不能用這種政治的理由來進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓這是我們外交部的太空管轄管到地心他也要管的他的境外管轄無所不在嘛這個說實在真的是讓世界有時候覺得說看笑話啦我是不好這樣講但是委員講的我也覺得很有道理所以昨天我們當然我是比較遺憾"},{"start":7715.704,"end":7731.314,"text":"國會應該是一個保護民主的地方那面對我們的國人不管是國軍或者是國會議員面對這種無理蠻橫的打壓照理說國會應該要通過譴責案應該要聲援那我們的國會現狀沒有通過那還好我們外交國防委員會有通過"},{"start":7732.034,"end":7757.814,"text":"我希望外交部可以把這個我們通過的決議善加運用不管是對國際發聲或者讓我們的國際友盟知道我們國會還是有態度的至少在委員會有態度那另外剛才你提到的就是說因為各國的狀況不一樣有的國家獨裁有的國家民主有的國家遵守國際法有的國家不遵守所以的旅行安全是一個相當複雜的行為所以中國要透過"},{"start":7758.614,"end":7773.308,"text":"國際行行組織發布的黃色或紅色的相關的通告當然國際行行組織有他的決策過程那因為我們不是會員國我們其實沒有把握還是要透過有盟國家那對於相關國家的旅行什麼目前外交部"},{"start":7775.33,"end":7796.104,"text":"會採取默契作為或正面表列或負面表列因為我擔心的其實不是沈伯陽他算知名人士我擔心是那些我們不認識名字的資通電軍國軍弟兄沒有人知道他他如果訊息不清楚到了某一個國家旅遊不見了"},{"start":7797.95,"end":7820.795,"text":"那真的是叫天不應中國對我們沒有管轄權但是某一些中國的附庸國他不管國際法的他也不文明所以我真的是希望我們外交部可以思考這一種我們一般旅遊安全警示通常是對當地的政治經濟局勢發布不同顏色的警戒但這個很特別這是中國用政治的理由"},{"start":7821.815,"end":7850.458,"text":"在找台灣人民的麻煩我們一些一貫到的到親到中國旅遊就被抓起來了到現在還沒放回來那中國他在國內這樣搞他在國際上那我以為我到這國旅遊了我搭哪一國的航空他有浮動主權的問題要不要注意我到哪一國過境有沒有需要注意或者我在哪一些國旅遊沒有問題所以我請教部長你們的態度是我們就一個一個溝通默契上處理但默契上處理可能只會幫助到"},{"start":7851.978,"end":7877.656,"text":"知名人士那要不要通案的正面表列或負面表列我們外交部的態度是什麼陳副委員講中港澳一定是有風險的嘛中共直接可以控制的到那有一些他周邊國家基於一些他這個他們中共的影響力這一些我們也會提醒那另外就是所謂沒有風險比如說這一次沈伯陽委員到了這個德國"},{"start":7878.877,"end":7883.186,"text":"外媒說這是比較低度風險我就說沒有風險我開玩笑講我們應該席之讓他各國去跑然後跑完打完卡的都是安全的綠色名單"},{"start":7888.655,"end":7914.546,"text":"所以我們內部作業當然都會因為我們有111個外管有外管的地方我們就有可以協助的一個不是 我這一題我簡單收尾收尾就是說外交部會不會傾向一個正面表列這些地方沒問題或者一個負面表列這些國家不要去還是我們不會做這兩個動作我是會建議用原則啦我們內部當然是有個案因為這裡面有一些在很微妙的地方"},{"start":7916.363,"end":7930.538,"text":"有一些沒有風險我們就講沒有風險那這一題本席要要求外交部跟跨部會如果你沒有所謂的正面或負面的表列對於這些人不管是國軍或者是個人"},{"start":7931.599,"end":7945.909,"text":"有涉及這樣子的風險的你們要個別通知到位因為我再講一次知名人士也許沒有風險但是對於那些辛苦捍衛國家的國軍其實我很遺憾我們立法院沒有通過那個決議"},{"start":7947.785,"end":7972.632,"text":"最先三波被發布通緝的是我們國軍弟兄欸那應該要告知他們說哪些地方去沒有問題哪些地方去要小心哪些航空不能搭以及發生問題怎麼尋求協助我們外交部做不做得到如果你們不公開正面負面表列的話那你要掌握這些人然後告知他風險能不能做到這件事情我們來跟國防部會一下意見因為相關人不見得只有國防部對 或者是國安部"},{"start":7973.372,"end":7994.32,"text":"或者是涉及有一些被中國點名的我們不要被他恐嚇到但對個別人身的安全我們身為政府應該要照顧這點我拜託部長 儘速通知相關人我剛才開玩笑講的就是沈伯陽現在是一個"},{"start":7995.72,"end":8016.47,"text":"也不能叫地標啦就是說我們如果極致讓他他出現在西班牙出現在布魯塞爾出現在哪裡那個國家大概他都很安全那我們大概都沒問題他是一個旅行安全指標啦那我接下來要請教另外一個議題我們把我們的目光移到洪都拉斯"},{"start":8017.489,"end":8046.809,"text":"洪都拉斯在下個禮拜吧一個多禮拜要投票了11月30號他們的總統大選目前主要的候選人當中有兩位呢公開表達他說如果他們當選要跟台灣重新建交那背景當然有他內政的因素啦他要跟執政黨做政治市場區隔也是原因之一另外爭持的因素是來自於經濟因為2023年以來洪都拉斯"},{"start":8047.669,"end":8061.927,"text":"坦白講見利忘義那到底誰得了利我們也不知道但他們國家的蝦農真的黑黑黑 迷迷茂茂那產生經濟重大衝擊所以對他們來講發現跟中國建交之後答應的沒兌現"},{"start":8063.393,"end":8082.374,"text":"白蝦出口銳減 倒閉60%而中國的廉價品大量的傾銷造成了這個宏都拉斯在地的中小型企業垮的垮 倒的倒所以他們其實是面對這個問題事實上中國的一帶一路國家都有類似的症狀那我要請教的是"},{"start":8082.898,"end":8103.148,"text":"宏都阿斯的主要的在野黨已經有這樣的表達意願我第一個請教部長宏國畢竟長期跟我們中華民國是有邦交關係我們在當地的人脈網絡人際關係還在不在是在還在嗎訊息的掌握應該還算是"},{"start":8104.378,"end":8131.678,"text":"還算是可以因為有一定的認識的人脈不管是橋嶺啊平常就有可能會互動的嘛所以其實消息管道都還在而這些消息管道是bilateral是雙方的他們也知道在那裡我們也知道在那裡我請教目前外交部這個紅國的這兩位主要的總統候選人有沒有透過相關的人際網絡訊息管道跟我方進行聯繫"},{"start":8133.035,"end":8151.84,"text":"因為他們兩個都公開講啦不管是拿斯拉拉或是阿斯普拉他們這兩位領先第一名第二名都有對外講他們如果當選總統要跟台灣恢復邦交嘛那我們也都聽到了至於說其他的有沒有什麼其他的我們就不方便講因為這兩位現在民調蠻高的耶是啊民調是蠻高的不過他們也算是接近但是我從美方那邊"},{"start":8159.076,"end":8182.757,"text":"部分朋友聽到的是 怕他們是連選舉可能都會有被沒收的危險所以現在國際官選團都有到啊對 很注意這次選舉的公平性是他們國家內政 是自由民主國家所關切但是他們如常進行選舉之後兩位主要的 甚至於現在民調名列前茅的候選人公開宣稱要跟台灣恢復邦交 那他"},{"start":8183.638,"end":8203.516,"text":"公開講我們聽到了那私下有沒有透過特定的管道跟我們聯繫你剛才部長表達不便在這邊談論我尊重但是我覺得外交部要做好因應因為11月30號要到了這個因應包含了什麼樣的狀況發生我們有什麼樣的備案劇本那部長你們應該有準備幾套劇本"},{"start":8204.471,"end":8221.167,"text":"當然外交部平常做的就是這個事就是要準備好我們期待啦好不好我們尊重紅國人民民主的選擇他們選擇之後我們再來看後續那我接下來要請教高市早苗的部分最後一題 借個幾分鐘高市早苗"},{"start":8222.128,"end":8240.293,"text":"他是在日本其實是最重要的委員會日本國會的預算委員會是日本國會議員最重視的這個委員會NHK實況轉播這個委員會國會議員要提問不像我們這樣急問急答喔是要先把問題提出來內閣交給各"},{"start":8243.294,"end":8264.051,"text":"各這個內閣的部門的常任事務官擬達之後由內閣首相或者相關的官員審視之後才來這邊回答所以日本的國會議員最重視的其實是就是這個預算委員會那高市早苗在這裡面對的所謂的安全事態的詢問"},{"start":8265.572,"end":8290.609,"text":"那高市早苗回答的是台灣如果面對中國的武力侵犯包含了可能的這個封鎖等等那最差的狀況有可能會影響他講的是有可能影響到日本的純利事態也是我們講的存亡那接下來他就會根據他們的憲法他的主詞是用日本跟自衛隊跟安倍講不一樣安倍的主詞是美國"},{"start":8291.71,"end":8309.243,"text":"跟日本他這個主持是日本跟日本自衛隊呢這個有權號發動集體自衛權那這個是他的大概比較完整的一個論述那這個論述呢坊間討論很多我就不贅述了目前為止日本因為對台灣安全的重視"},{"start":8310.802,"end":8337.84,"text":"那引起了中國的文攻武嚇加經濟制裁你知道我看到中國現在對日本做的事情我差點以為中國要逼日本承認它是中國的一部分就是我不買你的這個我黃海演習然後怎麼樣子好像要逼日本承認它是中國一部分中國的羅馬布就是這樣你身為我們國家的外交部長對於日本國這件事情我們國家對高市內閣的態度是什麼"},{"start":8338.991,"end":8358.959,"text":"我想高市爪苗首相他自己說到他言所當言那當然他的身份一定是要遵守他們的法律的規定他也講了一些情境之下所以他並沒有要收回那當然至於說有人不高興那怎麼去處理"},{"start":8360.539,"end":8384.875,"text":"避免身高衝突那這個是另外一件事情那我們台灣對日本的支持這又是另外一個事情我們事實上日本是基於自己的國家的利益尤其是安全他去思考跟對外去說包括不管是政策法令或者是聲明裡面提到台灣有事就是日本有事也就是日美安保有事"},{"start":8385.535,"end":8411.11,"text":"所以這裡面涉及到一個美國的角色不是日本單方面的行為其實是這個區域的安全網絡啦那中國對台灣一再的霸凌你講的文攻武嚇經濟脅迫無所不用其極嘛然後前一陣子用在菲律賓嘛也一樣啊也是官方課程學生什麼都不行現在用在日本嘛所以問題在中國嘛所以是不是誰有事沒事是中國在找事啊那找事就找理由那我們要好好的去管理中國"},{"start":8412.091,"end":8437.589,"text":"我們跟美日非理念相近國家要好好的管理避免中國擦槍走火我們是當作一個危機預防至於他在很多的行動上我們也要了解實況是如何你對日方政府有沒有什麼樣的代表我國政府因為外交部就是國家的發言人我們是支持高斯坦首相他的政策他的印太戰略"},{"start":8439.997,"end":8442.325,"text":"以及他對於這個我們"},{"start":8445.267,"end":8465.516,"text":"第一島鏈 包括台海 東海 南海它相關的這個立場那至於說中共它想要升高衝突因為今年是它所謂三個八十年嘛它想要動員民族主義那是不是要轉移到內部的焦點或藉此來怎麼樣去擴張那我們就必須要去釐清然後這些我們必須大家台灣 日本 美國周邊的國家要一起好好來manage"},{"start":8472.279,"end":8487.829,"text":"去管理中共的製造事端造成可能的威脅或是失控的狀況中國對日本家族的不管是黃海軍演現在延長八天對於他的旅遊的禁制令還有現在的水產的禁制令我國態度是什麼"},{"start":8488.089,"end":8501.253,"text":"我跟委員講他那個演習是平常都在做規模很小可是他透過央視把它誇大他離日韓很遠這其實在黃海在中共的這個岸邊但是日本就很清楚因為他們從地圖看可是台灣的媒體就把它擴大就變成這個一再的在操作被運用這也是認識作戰我們必須要了解事情的實況然後也不要要很"},{"start":8518.269,"end":8539.404,"text":"關心這個事但不要去過度反應那剛好讓中共可以操弄他的任職作戰那透過這樣的方式那旅遊跟經濟的部分呢旅遊跟經濟中共什麼東西都武器化所以跟中共來往要小心要去風險化甚至現在美中是根本就是所謂的脫鉤了嘛那你現在要不要鼓勵一下國人"},{"start":8541.465,"end":8556.943,"text":"可以赴日旅遊啦 我覺得日本在這個時候最需要台灣人表示對他的一個支持當年中國莫名其妙糟蹋我們關廟的鳳梨我們現在第一大輸出國就是日本"},{"start":8557.963,"end":8584.151,"text":"所以我也是請台灣人我們能夠以行動來表示對於高市早苗首相跟他政策的支持多到日本去觀光旅遊現在呢應該是好季節我最後一句話就是其實當中國莫名其妙選擇228連續假期我印象2019突然間宣布把我們剛開始要出產的鳳梨"},{"start":8586.072,"end":8604.817,"text":"就找一個隨便的理由就不讓他出口了想要傷害我們的農民當時是日本 澳洲讓我們的水果往那邊銷售對所以有自由的鳳梨啦這些都跑出來當時的川普的國務卿也吃鳳梨酥啊等等那後來澳洲"},{"start":8605.757,"end":8627.557,"text":"因為因為得罪中國他的葡萄啦紅酒那台灣我們也產生同樣態度去買紅酒所以這一次中國這種蠻恨流氓的行徑我覺得我們身為好朋友而且人家怎麼對我們人家給我們一口我們贏人一刀啦這是我們台灣人的天性所以我請我們國人啊"},{"start":8628.751,"end":8637.039,"text":"多去日本旅遊 然後多購買日本的產品來表示我們台日的友好好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝我們待會兒在林楚英委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":8663.628,"end":8690.878,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長謝謝請部長部長好委員好因為最近剛好比較多時事剛好王委員其實也有問到就是說好像是今天你在受訪的時候就有提到就是現在中國去禁止日本的這一些水產品等等之類的你說我們在外交上面會有一些支持是不是可以再次說明一下是"},{"start":8691.826,"end":8717.92,"text":"因為日本現在對應該講說中國現在對日本的行為都過去發生在對台灣嘛包括文攻武嚇經濟脅迫各種霸凌的行為那現在也發生在我們的邻邦先是菲律賓現在又是日本所以中共就是麻煩製造者他想要藉由一些事情啊來去不管建軍備戰或轉移國內的焦點或是能夠跟未來"},{"start":8719.2,"end":8741.02,"text":"美國這個討價還價那這個時候當然政府該做政府的那我也呼籲我們的國人可以以行動來支持日本特別是高斯藻苗首相因為他的印太戰略或他的這個所謂的台灣有事就是日本有事就是日美安保有事這個是持續性的"},{"start":8742.121,"end":8765.419,"text":"他在那個內容講話其實也是很周延只是說當然有人會斷章取義那我覺得所謂他說的不對的話他說的誠實的話他也沒有要收回所以我想這個事情也不是中共單方面可以無限上綱的他想要藉由這個事情去找事情"},{"start":8766.56,"end":8794.671,"text":"那我們要共同來管理因為稍微不慎他因為他現在是今年是所謂的三個八十年嘛抗日成功八十年然後這個二戰結束成立聯合國八十年然後所謂光復台灣的八十年所以他今年就是民族主義年他就是要動員愛國主義所以這個時候呢我們要很小心的去因應但是也不用太過去被他做認知作戰比如說所謂一開始就是演習在黃海"},{"start":8795.771,"end":8807.177,"text":"如果地圖上你去看那個就是它的岸邊那規模很小 例行性的可是他就把它放大那我們的媒體或國人要了解要正確地進行試讀避免被它運用了這個也是我們在處理危機的時候也不要這個反應過度了要適當"},{"start":8816.142,"end":8840.817,"text":"確實要小心就是說現在在今年其實像高市的這個發言跟以前的發言其實並沒有什麼太大的差別但他就是故意說這個就是他的挑釁就是他去frame說高市的言論影響到他們的感情我最近剛剛也有提到其實他們在做這個操作的時候最近不管是在Facebook還是在Threads上面其實有大量的帳號其實都是在詆毀日本"},{"start":8841.557,"end":8868.339,"text":"那這個詆毀日本呢當然在我們的國民我們大家自有公斷但是在外交上面我們特別要注意就是說如果我們也發現了有這樣的一個社群的操作其實外交是可以出來講話的這是第一個那第二個就是剛剛講的因為農業部在嘛對不對就是說我們今天跟農業部不管是怎麼協調怎麼跟國人呼籲就是說他們如果今天有這個被中國禁止出口的這個事情的時候台灣我們要怎麼去支持我覺得這個外交上面這個"},{"start":8869.6,"end":8893.813,"text":"之前我們在不管是在災害發生的時候我們所給予的這個能量跟支持其實這都是人民跟之間這個感情的互動如果在這一次也有這樣的相類似的行動的話我相信對於台日之間的這個感情一定會更好我接下來想問一下就是說我本來還想繼續往下問但我突然想到一件事情就是說因為去年這個外交部的這個預算其實是被刪減跟凍結不少"},{"start":8896.275,"end":8912.455,"text":"我想知道就是說當然第一個今年我們還是要想辦法要守護好我們這個外交的預算因為我們說真的外交的預算本來就已經不太夠了中國的打壓就像剛剛部長提到的中國的打壓今年是特別的多在特別多的時候結果我們這邊的預算還沒有辦法執行那一定是問題"},{"start":8913.796,"end":8939.547,"text":"但是我想問人員的部分就是說我們現在在這個海外這些駐外的這個使館就是人員是不是有不足夠的問題有時候我們預缺會不會沒有辦法補上就是說我們現在在軍隊有這個問題但外交人員外交人員一直以來都會有被挖角因為外交人員非常優秀外面的企業都想要挖角挖角之後呢因為畢竟在外面遇到中國的打壓他們有時候工時真的很長"},{"start":8940.587,"end":8954.483,"text":"工時長然後這個薪水又沒有一直辦法往上提升的時候其實有時候也會影響到士氣現在有沒有什麼規劃可以讓我們這個在這個海外就是我們現在預缺然後是希望能夠補上人力這件事情目前有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":8956.104,"end":8979.174,"text":"報告委員我們當然公寓善其事必先利其器那外交人員在第一線是打仗嘛那我們怎麼給他最好的環境這個我當外交部長我用很多精神在這方面所以除了預算增加然後他們的一些像比如說地域加急啦房屋補貼啦 健保啦 兒女的教育我覺得這個我們國家要全力來支持以外就是員額"},{"start":8980.474,"end":9007.104,"text":"那原額像歐洲專案我們就有一個整體的一個政策那也感謝這個行政院的支持先給我們的30個原額因為外交人員的這個入局他是要去訓練然後最後再外派他需要花至少一兩年的時間所以我們先有這樣子然後後面我們也都用政策性的比如要推動農幫計畫像現在以歐洲來講幾乎每個國家都想要跟我們發展"},{"start":9008.244,"end":9012.829,"text":"包括這個經濟外交當然文化外交還有非常多所以這方面確實會影響我們台灣我們外管的能量那我也在重新規劃打區域聯防避免各自為政強化落實館長制然後我們總和外交就是各部會我們也有派外人員加強整合"},{"start":9030.306,"end":9057.095,"text":"然後發揮綜合的這個外交的戰力這個是屬於組織調整跟改革但是真的你如果沒人沒錢那也沒有辦法去做這些事情所以委員是說我們是希望委員會能夠支持就是預算的增加那我們也會把人人編制也增加我們一定會打造一個就是能夠來落實總和外交跟榮邦計畫的外交團隊"},{"start":9058.135,"end":9076.622,"text":"對 因為我覺得就是畢竟本鳳等等之類有時候是定死的像剛剛提到家籍啦我跟委員報告補充抱歉比如說那個物價一直上升像在美國或是歐洲甚至像新疆那個租金很貴他那個住不起在這個都市中心他就往郊外住"},{"start":9077.202,"end":9103.569,"text":"然後為了通勤上下有些是女性像紐約他安全也會有顧慮搭地鐵我覺得說當然美國有一個叫做Foreign Service Act因為像我們國防部我們軍方是有相關的人事法令其實我也是覺得我們立法院也可以來研議是不是針對外交人員有一個專法讓他可以充分的來發揮吸收更多的人才願意來當台灣的外交官"},{"start":9105.45,"end":9120.617,"text":"因為如果說現在來考試的外交官的質量相對於我們可能幾十年前也許大生那個時候都想要外交報廓可是現在社會的吸引力太多薪水啦大概會語言或有外交的這個能力的人才企業都"},{"start":9121.457,"end":9148.106,"text":"都真的要所以我們要留住這些人才不能靠他的熱情也要讓他有好的工作環境這個建議不錯啦所以這個法律的部分我們或許來可以一起來共同思考一下如果院辦我們這邊也來思考一下因為我覺得我們總是要想一個策略讓人才可以進來那接下來我想問一下就是說這個我先跳過好了我想問一下因為今天剛好這一個衛福部也在嘛就是因為WHA就是說我們現在你看我們這個醫療團隊"},{"start":9150.708,"end":9165.143,"text":"我們已經獲頒這一次的這個頒獎典禮裡面在國際的我們獲頒四項大獎也就是說我們的這個人才你看這是11月的事情而已我們這個人才真的是非常的多那當然這個明年就是一樣這個打壓一定還會繼續存在"},{"start":9167.245,"end":9194.836,"text":"那我覺得我們提早做好準備一定是好事所以有沒有什麼現在目前來講有沒有什麼樣的方案就我們過往一定有一些事情要做吧對不對有沒有什麼額外的然後能夠讓我們明年看能不能再拚一次這個WHA好 謝謝委員垂訊那這個部分當然第一個我們也謝謝外交部長期以來不論是WHA或者是相關的這些國際的活動我們都跟外交部一起努力那謝謝在前線不論是駐館或者是專案的同仁幫我們去做一些溝通協調"},{"start":9195.856,"end":9219.053,"text":"那當然因為WHA的這些特定的情勢還有包含美國退出WHO所以說當然在跟過去的一些策略我們要重新來思考那這幾年以來我們在WHA的這一些倡議都有很多友邦還有理念相近國家來為我們做倡議我相信這個部分我們也持續在跟外交部一起來請我們的各外館來協助我們跟各國來做他們代表的遊說"},{"start":9219.893,"end":9241.23,"text":"那另外的話我們這幾年都做雙邊跟多邊的論壇雙邊多邊論壇其實都是建立我們跟各國之間實質的醫藥衛生合作的這個部分那所以明年我們當然希望說在WHA的期間我們這些多邊跟雙邊論壇的合作如果說有進一步的成果會在這邊再跟這些相關的國家或者是團體再做後續的"},{"start":9241.69,"end":9267.758,"text":"持續的討論那當然這邊台灣的這些醫療量能我們其實因為當然都聚於外面所以我們都會在沒有辦法進到正式的會場可是我們會在會場外面去做一些相關對 我們的這些side eventside event包含多邊 雙邊那另外的話我們都會主辦我們自己的一些討論像今年度我們是在以AI的部分去做一些分享那來的這些相關的國家還有團體都非常的多那明年我們一樣會去討論我們要用什麼樣的議題來跟著"},{"start":9270.579,"end":9291.248,"text":"目前因為WHA明年可能主要是以癌症防治為主先跟委員報告台灣應該是明年我們會來提出我們根除吸肝的報告這個是比WHO的進度還要快我們希望當然我們目標上是希望能夠送進WHO但是如果他們不接的話我們至少希望能夠在明年的會場外面至少也凸顯這件事"},{"start":9292.328,"end":9313.427,"text":"對 癌症防治還有我們在相關的吸肝等等還有現在國際社會關注的是Mental Health的部分那這一塊我們在過去的合作經驗裡面發現世界各國都很喜歡我們的經驗我們會想辦法在Site Event這邊做更多的宣傳讓世界上更多的國家跟友邦了解我們其實有做了更多他們應該其實可以在WHO裡面跟大家分享合作的案子"},{"start":9313.987,"end":9329.577,"text":"謝謝市長因為這個友邦的遊說當然很重要他們的發聲很重要然後再接下來就是我們周邊這些NGO的幫忙但最後我們專業的突出是最重要的因為只有這個樣子他們才會有那個立即說好那我們必須要讓台灣進來那再拜託就是彼此合作我們也希望能夠明年能夠還有這個機會"},{"start":9330.818,"end":9354.421,"text":"謝謝委員 我們當然也再補充一下就是說其實我們有很多國際的專業團體不論是國際的護理師的學會或者是醫師公會 牙醫師公會甚至我們的醫學生的相關的協會他們也都積極的參與這些國際的專業組織這是另外一個在專業立場上面讓各個專業組織了解台灣其實應該是我們講的台灣可以幫助跟台灣可以幫助很重要的另外一個途徑"},{"start":9355.693,"end":9366.362,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝市長有一些問題我就下次再問謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":9386.092,"end":9399.236,"text":"我也好部長好我想再延續剛剛有關於日本高四早苗這個說到的台灣有事就是日本有事的部分剛剛前面兩位委員都已經問到了但是我比較想實際的從合作的角度因為就像您剛剛講的希望我們都能夠展現就是日本挺台灣那台灣也要挺日本當然我知道現在很多的這些媒體上那麼很多具有影響力的這個網紅等等他們都講了"},{"start":9415.281,"end":9441.152,"text":"這個反正剛好領了一萬大家可以到日本去消費這個中國這個要這個中國的人民不要去日本旅遊那台灣人民呢就去買包日本 採包日本但是除此之外我認為啦更多的合作可以從政府的角度出發包括其實這一次高市早苗在APEC跟林心儀代表見面的時候也說到了就是希望台日在人工智慧又或者是數位貿易當中可以有機會合作"},{"start":9443.433,"end":9465.633,"text":"那當然我們知道人工智慧可能包括這個貿易的部分可能是經濟部或者是數位部但是我特別研究了一下就是其實我們也有這所謂國際合作的發展的這個所謂國和會那麼國和會裡頭包括呢它其實是有所謂基金的投融資的部分言下之意這個部分它其實我有請這個國和會列出了"},{"start":9466.354,"end":9481.785,"text":"今年也就是115年度要執行的計畫當然有一些海外志工團的服務啦那麼有友好國家的醫事人員的訓練啊等等但是在這個部分裡頭也有另外一個部分是有關於基金投融資的部分"},{"start":9482.145,"end":9501.698,"text":"包括我們透過這個方式來做國際的合作因為我們都知道中國的所謂一帶一路在他面對所謂的這個經濟合作所謂的合作但是其實上是經濟的入侵或者是建設的入侵的時候他可以掌控這個國家的"},{"start":9502.438,"end":9517.226,"text":"相關的政治從經濟去轉化成政治的影響力那在這個部分當然我們不可能跟中國在比金錢遊戲我們從來也不玩這一套但是正向的合作跟發展的部分我覺得還是可以思考因為我知道"},{"start":9518.146,"end":9542.139,"text":"在國和會的這個相關的合作當中我們當然是站在一種已開發的國家對於其他國家的經濟援助或者是產業上面的合作或者是農業 經貿甚至於醫療上面的合作但是有沒有可能在我們國和會的基金投融資的部分我們有機會跟日本像這樣子對我們友善的國家來做其他的合作那麼有沒有這方面的思考"},{"start":9542.879,"end":9570.805,"text":"有 我們跟日本有將近100個合作的備忘錄跟協議那我們12月初台日也會召開年度性的經貿會議另外就是第三國市場委員會比如說我們現在有所謂台飛經濟走廊要對接旅送經濟走廊旅送經濟走廊就是美日飛三邊他們的元首宣布的一個計畫所以怎麼樣到第三地去合作那日本你剛剛提到"},{"start":9571.866,"end":9591.725,"text":"這個高斯藻苗首相也談到了包括不管是人工智慧半導體 能源 太空或其他的這些跟數位有關的合作我們都有在做進一步的研究能夠跟他找到合作的項目那我們台日之間也有經過"},{"start":9594.788,"end":9610.214,"text":"對方也做了很多調查知道我們哪些企業是可以做他的夥伴一起到新南向國家那有關於台日的合作我們的榮邦計畫也包括那榮邦計畫有三個支柱科技 資金跟人才科技就找出台日可以合作或互補"},{"start":9610.894,"end":9639.38,"text":"甚至到第三地資金就是您提到的包括國和會未來的這一個我們除了過去援外以外以投資的角度跟日本的JECA來對接再來就是人才尤其是這個能力建構這樣的一些人才的培育也是其中要去執行非常重要那是不是我請我們國和會秘書長簡單說一下他去過日本那最近我們在亞營歐營很多國家也跟他們都有很多合作的項目"},{"start":9639.48,"end":9652.397,"text":"我覺得這個報告很重要有關說我們接下來115年當中的預算當中我們是不是有機會跟日本做更進一步的合作因為我都認為合作投資其實那個關係才是緊密的"},{"start":9652.95,"end":9669.598,"text":"感謝委員 目前我們跟日本的JICA在菲律賓已經有合作計畫我們在加勒比海還有一些地方也有對接那是哪一部分的合作 可以說的如果是商業機密不要說沒關係"},{"start":9670.638,"end":9685.791,"text":"目前是屬於雙邊的合作但是一加一等於二就是說兩國合作到第三國這一部分我們也持續在溝通協調之中那事實上我們多年來已經進行了很多的多邊"},{"start":9686.812,"end":9708.804,"text":"的合作計畫那是透過歐銀透過美洲銀行透過咖啡那目前也在跟亞銀在延伸多邊的這個合作那透過多邊的合作我們的用途其實很廣泛有社會融資包括婦女父權我們也有環境融資包括high impact"},{"start":9709.324,"end":9730.461,"text":"基金的投入那我们有传统的基础建设像港口像道路机场那我们也有新形态的基础建设包括AI Data Center这个目前有评估的计划在进行之中所以跟日本的JICA还有甚至于我也访问过"},{"start":9731.862,"end":9747.132,"text":"德國 法國 還有美國跟他們這些多邊機構的合作目前我們都是在展開在協調因為本席對於就是在這一個國和會基金當中對於援助當然我們身為被認為是已開發國家"},{"start":9749.454,"end":9760.267,"text":"有能力去協助其他的國家這是一件好事但是透過這個所謂基金投融資讓這個基金能夠更活化我知道過去你們的基金只有115億嘛那麼現在已經營運到154億我認為這個就是一個績效讓這個基金做大"},{"start":9765.273,"end":9782.198,"text":"然後讓他的base再增加的時候就能夠進行更大的建設因為我們知道其實很多的投資的建設這個基金成本是非常重要的所以本席在這邊是給予支持跟肯定但是還是希望在這些合作當中能夠感受到的是"},{"start":9782.958,"end":9802.81,"text":"友邦挺我們而我們給予友邦因為包括像現在的所謂AI半導體等等這些部分的產業鏈的合作我相信其他國家對於台灣的需要絕對不是只是在所謂地緣政治上面經濟上也是很重要的那因為時間有限我也要來到就是說另外這個部分我要請農業部的次長"},{"start":9808.36,"end":9822.546,"text":"次長這個有關於非洲豬瘟這一仗打得辛苦了那麼我們還是終於可以成功的手下非洲豬瘟但是我們也知道這個過去因為口蹄疫那麼我們痛失了國際的市場那麼好不容易在2020年"},{"start":9823.986,"end":9831.852,"text":"我們被認證為口蹄疫的非疫區那麼希望銷售菲律賓 新加坡但是現在又因為非洲豬瘟整體來講從過去當年1996年的27.6萬噸到口蹄疫爆發之後現在在慢慢回復當中我想要問的就是說在這樣的過程當中現在我們怎麼來看國際的市場"},{"start":9846.663,"end":9875.02,"text":"應該是說台灣的獸醫服務體系跟台灣的養豬體系在過去確實是我不能講百煉成鋼真的是很慘痛的經驗但是確實是有很好的基礎所以未來其實我們的養豬產業的輔導這是農業部要做的以國內為主因為90%的國內市場都是我們的台灣豬肉那至於外銷的部分我們當然就盡量來做第一個當然是恢復成非洲豬恩德非裔國才有機會再出口"},{"start":9876.507,"end":9888.694,"text":"對 那麼我的意思是那麼對於這個部分農業部現在這裡對於就是福島然後以及現在的所謂回復的過程當中是有信心的嗎這一定要做的因為其實台灣"},{"start":9890.106,"end":9903.941,"text":"有這個水準也做得到但是真的是需要包括我們的養豬農民包括我們各縣市辛苦的動物防疫人員還有全民因為真的防疫是全民的責任每個人都把自己的部分做好其實國家才會安全好 我覺得對於台灣的豬農來講不只是台灣人民"},{"start":9906.564,"end":9911.526,"text":"擔心沒有豬肉其實對於豬農來講其實這樣的一些農產品的外銷對於台灣來說也是非常重要的喔好謝謝那我要請部長就是我知道其實喔台灣的續產的技術對於友邦是非常重要的也是我們非常大的利器就像我們看到齁這個在EPIC上面喔這個BTS的RM可以上去演講他就是用所謂的過去呢韓國是用外交來帶動K-POP"},{"start":9934.373,"end":9938.977,"text":"現在是反過來 透過K-POP來帶動外交從BTS的RM 到聯合國 到美國現在在EPIC上面發表演說好像變成是所有的娛樂產業就要看韓國但是我對台灣有信心的是包括剛剛我特別質詢到的是台灣有關於農業技術又或者是剛剛這個林靜儀次長也特別提到的我們的醫療技術都是全球第一"},{"start":9959.793,"end":9979.742,"text":"那麼在這個部分其實都是需要外交的協助一起跨部會的整合所以在這個部分我也期許部長在這個外交的部分讓我們的這個農產技術或是醫療技術成為外交的神隊友那在這個部分也需要外交部跟另外兩個部會能夠多多的來溝通跟協調好"},{"start":9980.942,"end":10003.477,"text":"對啦 我要為台灣豬講幾句好話因為這個確實是我們外交的神隊友除了台灣豬啦 真的是很好吃我們出口包括食品加工那我們其實現在跟菲律賓 巴拉圭我在推動榮邦計畫我們投資考察團 大家都很有興趣菲律賓他一年需要1200萬頭的豬他自己可以供給大概不到900萬頭"},{"start":10004.978,"end":10029.569,"text":"所以它的租價如果要降 造福人民的話養豬業很重要所以我們八大農幫計畫的旗艦計畫裡面有一個智慧新農業我們用智慧解決方案 輸出落地對我們台灣的青農甚至我們這一些農業設施還有人才那其實可以建立一個台非經濟走廊裡面很好的項目巴拉圭是一個畜牧業很發展那它的這個所謂的這一些"},{"start":10032.888,"end":10056.013,"text":"飼料什麼的 這個可以說是很豐富啦他們種植的不管是大豆啦或其他的這些玉米等等那我覺得這個都是他們的競爭力台灣跟他們一結合之後可以擴展那個國內跟國際的市場所以這個是我認為台灣豬不只是我們把豬肉輸出去我們把好的這一個我們的人才可以有一個未來有用武之地"},{"start":10056.573,"end":10064.38,"text":"他可以到新的地方對我們台灣的農民尤其是青年的農民他們這些都是做新農業的智慧農業也會找到發展的一個很好的一個未來的一個舞台"},{"start":10072.427,"end":10086.941,"text":"部長我特別提到為什麼說是農業外交這個部分就是因為這一次日本受到中國所謂的在這個主權上面或者是挑戰的時候他們的經濟大臣蕭業廷也特別講了就是雞蛋不要放在同樣一個籃子裡"},{"start":10087.762,"end":10091.845,"text":"可是事實上從過去民進黨執政就一直在強調這一點所以呢我也期許啦外交搭配我們的農業醫療或其他的產業我們也不要只就是在面對比如說中國又臨時宣布哪一個產業哪一個農產品不能進去的時候那麼讓這些農民受損我認為其實外交帶著走到外面去闖天下其實這會更安全也更可以達到這個外交的實質效果好 我們會推動努力 謝謝"},{"start":10120.271,"end":10121.938,"text":"現在休息五分鐘 五分鐘後繼續詢答"},{"start":10535.27,"end":10539.574,"text":"我們繼續開會 接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好 我們請部長好 謝謝 請林部長"},{"start":10565.939,"end":10593.875,"text":"部長長我也好部長今天我要特別針對台日關係跟你就交幾個問題特別是我們最近有看到高市總理針對台灣有事的發言他在他的問答答辯中他有提到說台灣有事可能會構成日本安全保障法中的存亡危機事態日本可能可以得以行使集體的自衛權我個人是肯定這樣的立場"},{"start":10594.835,"end":10613.87,"text":"但是我們有持續感受到中方它有在把它上升就是把這個情勢上升情勢上升成武力介入情勢上升成彩虹線而且有強烈抗議那我們當然是在整個東亞地區印太地區我們都不想要看到情勢的上升就你的理解"},{"start":10614.631,"end":10635.584,"text":"台灣有事 日本有事 其中的存款危機事態怎麼樣可以用積極正面的方式來去了解它而不是上升情勢的方式來去理解它這個可不可以請部長來說明一下你的看法我們如果詳細去看高屍早毛首相的談話"},{"start":10639.474,"end":10668.191,"text":"其實他是很一致而且是符合日本包括安保法的規定這個政策也是行之有年從安倍晉三前首相就開始我想只是說那他把講的舉例說明的時候中共想要去制止這樣的事情繼續發展所以想要升高衝突然後也想針對高市早苗政策畫一條紅線"},{"start":10669.794,"end":10691.949,"text":"然後要 就是其實在進行一個複合式的戰爭是包括文攻武嚇 經濟脅迫也包括就是把觀光旅遊跟所有的貿易這些關係都武器化那這個對台灣都用過 有沒有效"},{"start":10692.89,"end":10708.386,"text":"有時候反而反效果但是中共也有他可能不得不他想要升高衝突去達到的目標可是也會有反效果因為就像用民族主義去動員社會這個是兩面的刃"},{"start":10709.734,"end":10735.37,"text":"那會不會失控我們當然就密切觀察跟因應所以呢他講的跟做的我們也必須要很就是說掌握他的實況不要變成他這個操作認知作戰或宣傳戰的一部分這個是我是說我們政府官員當然我們對於高次早苗的談話我們這個是認為他是一項的政策那台灣"},{"start":10736.551,"end":10749.41,"text":"在這點上是支持的立場可是怎麼樣以具體行動大家來表達支持這個就是我想委員關心的我想台日之間的友好發生任何的天災地變"},{"start":10750.697,"end":10778.932,"text":"大家都是發自內心去不管是去捐款救災或是用什麼方式去表達可能去買自由的鳳梨等所以我覺得台灣人我們要以行動來支持高市早苗 首相這樣的一個印太戰略尤其在第一島鏈的政策這涉及到日本 台灣還有所有包括周邊國家的共同的利益"},{"start":10780.493,"end":10803.894,"text":"也因此我們現在因為中共也有一個失言甚至我認為是失態 失控就是他們的駐大阪的總領事薛健所以這個其實火上加油那也因為這個是完全違反外交的這個基本的原則涉及到這一種"},{"start":10805.796,"end":10819.197,"text":"非常粗暴而且甚至是有鼓勵犯罪所謂的斬首論這種話所以這個也是必須要被檢驗的所以我是覺得這件事情怎麼樣去"},{"start":10820.509,"end":10838.941,"text":"把局面穩定下來我們也要呼籲中共方面也要克制那我們跟日本還有各個理念相近國家尤其是鄰近國家共同來處理好中共可能的反應避免影響了整個包括台海的和平穩定以及第一島鏈的這個情勢"},{"start":10842.079,"end":10861.084,"text":"不知道其實我們簡單來講那是符合日本政府大概一貫的對他們安全的這個方向大概是不變的那我們也希望藉著這個場域來說明說我們是希望維持現狀我們希望預防衝突那任何預防衝突的可能性我們必須當然就是要透過這樣子的合作"},{"start":10861.884,"end":10877.809,"text":"這一次從他們提到日本有事之後我們也看到中方把他們的觀光客武器化把他們的貿易武器化包含他們要禁止日本的水產品來進入他們的市場等等我想這些都是要提醒我們所有的民眾中方會用"},{"start":10879.289,"end":10896.961,"text":"各種的用經濟的手段來去干預一些國家的內政那也會用經濟的手段來去影響這些國家如果不站照他們的框架去走如果不按照他們的意識跟政見去走的話可能就會受到傷害所以為了要維持我們的經濟安全"},{"start":10897.441,"end":10925.014,"text":"我們可能跟日方甚至包含跟韓國來共同來去思考有什麼樣的安全保障的架構特別先從經濟安全上面來講因為我們不能夠把所有的貨品產品聚焦在單一國家如果聚焦在單一國家的話如果他們把它貿易武器化的話我們就看到類似的狀況出現包含稀土也是包含農水產品也是包含觀光客也是這些我想因為我們現在是總和外交我們當然要跟各個不同的部門一起來統合"},{"start":10926.254,"end":10954.433,"text":"這部分我也必須要談到在這個總和外交裡面農業上面的政策上面的交換是非常重要的最近這幾次我們去訪日的時候也有跟農業相關的這一些官員們或者是這一些國會議員們都有交換意見特別是針對我們最近的一些非洲豬瘟跟這種大型的傳染病等等他們在怎麼樣把他們的蓄產業全面性的用飼料來去餵養的這種做法"},{"start":10955.594,"end":10975.027,"text":"這種經驗傳承跟分享我認為這就是很適合我們的農業部來去做意見交換的也就是說未來台日之間的外交不僅僅是在安全我知道安全上面的議題大家很願意去談戰略上面的議題大家很願意去談但其實他們在一些細部上面的政策層次上面的應用比方說他們基本上他們的組織的這一個飼養"},{"start":10978.268,"end":10997.673,"text":"96%是用這一個飼料 94%是用飼料6%也是用飼料不過是用過去那種再生Echo的這種資源回收的方式得到的好的飼料來提供給這些畜牧產業我們透過這些以議題為導向的交換意見那我們在各個層次的交流就會更密切所以我們不要"},{"start":10998.453,"end":11027.285,"text":"就外交領域談外交我們不用只用價值談外交我們要在全面性的在經濟上面 在農業上面在環境上面包含在觀光旅行上面它沒有什麼長處我們都可以來去做應用我想這些都是有幫助的最後我要提醒剛才我們提到這些台日關係我們之間的關係是很密切的那是人跟人之間的友情也好人跟人之間的關係也是有利害關係在那我們是希望說台日關係是要有自己的坐標它不用因為反中而傾談"},{"start":11028.385,"end":11045.906,"text":"也不會因為有中而疏遠台灣我們外交部在對陸政策上面是以台灣為主體的長期利益跟民主價值為歸一我們不必去操作他們的反中或者我們不去希望那些日本的這些親中的人來去反對我們 不用我們有自己的坐標我們用自己的坐標來去努力"},{"start":11046.286,"end":11067.939,"text":"所以我特別提到 這個青年的留學計畫我們先從年輕的一代 新的世代開始日本的台灣教育協會從2017年起 除了疫情期間他們有招募台灣高中生參與這個SGH計畫就是Super Global High School的計畫前往日本留學一年 培養知日友台的未來人才"},{"start":11068.519,"end":11093.956,"text":"那我認為他們願意把資源送台灣的孩子來到他們的國家來去學習來去跟他們建立關係那是一個長期的關係他們在培育的是未來一個世代兩個世代對台注重的這一個世代所以我認為我們台灣自己也應該用外交跟七年百億就是我們賴總統推動的七年百億台灣圓夢計畫的基礎我們來思考一下怎麼樣是"},{"start":11095.157,"end":11120.637,"text":"重點的你不要把資源都放在台北台中高雄這種都會區包含我們嘉義包含雲林包含鄰近的南投都可以這些偏鄉的這些高中生能夠有機會從他們高中時期這個都是一輩子難忘的經驗就可以建立起這樣的管道我自己在日本留學的時候我也是去他們的參議員的辦公室去實習也是一年到現在我們還是有這樣持續的關係在存在這是長期的投資"},{"start":11121.377,"end":11143.879,"text":"那我認為這就是以台灣為自己的座標來去精進台日之間的關係是以青年為座標我們投資的是這一代下一代跟下下一個世代上下就可以30年到40年那這樣子的投資是有效益的有長遠的計畫的包括我們竹崎高中他們從311之後就跟東日本大震災之後的這些受災的一些高中們有建立聯誼的關係"},{"start":11145.581,"end":11166.118,"text":"如果說未來我們真的是很希望說有更多的資源包含外交部的資源教育部的資源能夠讓我們這一些偏鄉的高中的同學至少有一年有一次也好那不見得可能日本台灣教育協會他是有這個留學一年我們不見得要那麼長期短期的計劃特別針對非都市型的高中"},{"start":11167.409,"end":11191.298,"text":"中張頭 雲嘉南這些縣市中南部的這些縣市能夠有機會把這些過去集中所在都市的資源給我們讓我們能夠去這樣的交流那包含我們族群高中有類似的這樣的案例我們希望說新港高中 協同高中等等各個不同的高級中學都有這樣的機會那這部分是不是外交部能夠給我們一些協助"},{"start":11191.638,"end":11205.671,"text":"能夠擴大一些專案讓我們這些高中的朋友們能夠來去爭取那我們去也可以 日方來也可以會不會部長簡單的回應一下我非常認同委員的這個主張事實上我過去"},{"start":11207.296,"end":11220.202,"text":"擔任這個國安會諮詢委員那時候二十幾年前我們就是在推動這個高校生休業旅行現在也看到開發結果一年都超過五萬人以上那獎學金的話這個留學生雙向怎麼樣再增加更多的預算跟原額我在當交通部長的時候我那時候還鼓勵就是說大家"},{"start":11230.206,"end":11255.351,"text":"日本人來的這些年輕的所謂的畢業旅行或者是他們講的休業旅行能夠往中南部那我們也跟高鐵所謂的假期的那種票結合因為有一些不是尖峰時間然後把時速郵購型整合讓他可以往台灣的南部走這個也曾經我們在推動那現在在外交部就是我們有非常多"},{"start":11256.252,"end":11266.924,"text":"這一個人才的交流包括青年大使 農業大使等等這一個其實在跟日本方面現在也是有在增加這一個整個我們的計畫"},{"start":11269.144,"end":11285.281,"text":"的能量所以委員提到的沒有錯台灣不是只有台北然後因為他們考慮到到南部去可能交通的費用我們怎麼樣來減少他的負擔另外就是讓台灣的這個社團像四大社團像福倫社他們都是很國際性的也可能扮演一些接待家庭這個整體配合起來之後"},{"start":11287.483,"end":11298.209,"text":"一個年輕人他到了一個國家他影響他一輩子他的家人親友他的同事都會對台灣開始了解產生了後續非常豐富可能他對他一生對社會的一個很好的成果"},{"start":11306.994,"end":11328.479,"text":"非常感謝部長最後一小點補充一下跟農業有相關的那包含我們在新港的一個文教基金會那其實日方有來也來體驗我們的田間文化就直接下田去或者是做採果這樣子的方式那他們的這些年輕的同學們進來也可以體會到我們的農業那我認為這個東西就是總和外交的一部分我們過去可能在"},{"start":11329.76,"end":11343.49,"text":"這種質詢的範圍上面都是偏傳統外交或者是價值外交那已經遠遠沒有辦法面對21世紀的挑戰那圖用價值它沒有辦法驅動一切那由商業為導向那總和外交為導向我覺得還是一個比較好的方向 謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":11359.071,"end":11360.479,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請林佳龍林部長請林部長"},{"start":11369.674,"end":11389.208,"text":"部長早 今天基本上大家都非常關注日本首相高市早苗關於台灣有事 日本也有事的說法我想要問一下 日本他們在首相發言之後因為也引發了中日之間的一些外交上面的衝突"},{"start":11389.668,"end":11406.102,"text":"那當然這個當事人之一是我們台灣嘛因為畢竟這個是談到了台灣之後才出現了這個中日的這個衝突的升溫那我想要問的是日方有沒有針對這件事情那有向台灣這邊的外交部好像您這裡來做溝通"},{"start":11407.871,"end":11432.973,"text":"有 我們不管我們駐日本的我們的代表處或者是跟他們的外務省之間都有對這個事情有交換意見那在這個意見上面的交換我們雙方是有做出什麼樣的一個表達或者是在這個互信互動上面有什麼樣的一個態度能夠跟我們現在大眾來做一個進一步的說明"},{"start":11434.575,"end":11454.18,"text":"陳儒高市早苗首相他講他言所當言那他講了也不會收回但是因為講了這個話可能有一些引起的反應這個也要好好去因應嘛尤其是中共的反應那這一點當然我們作為理念相近國家之間也都會溝通"},{"start":11455.08,"end":11469.135,"text":"所以是日方這裡的這個代表向台灣方面有談到就是說呢即便這句話不會收回但他們對於中國大陸這邊呢還是會去再向他們做進一步的溝通是這個意思嗎是 所以"},{"start":11470.396,"end":11492.824,"text":"日本政府 他們外務省也派了代表有到北京但目前看起來並不是很順利的狀況之下但是這個行動本身就代表一個善意嘛對 派人去了嘛 要去跟他溝通不想讓這個事情因為誤會或失控是 所以說在這個部分上面日方跟台灣這邊也有進行一些互動他們當然也會讓我們知道我們當然也呼籲吧 中共要克制"},{"start":11497.706,"end":11520.203,"text":"那另外就是說除了這個高市早苗他的聲明之外那我們雙邊還會不會有一些比較積極的作為我舉個例子來說那先前他講的是如果台灣有事那就是日本有事那現在看起來這個中國大陸他們是把這個目標對準了這個日本不管在經濟上的或是軍事演習上的"},{"start":11520.623,"end":11534.894,"text":"那請問在台灣同樣的角度來說那我們會也採取這個日本有事台灣有事這樣子的一個說法嗎因為中共就是說軍事的擴張是針對台灣跟第一島鏈所有國家"},{"start":11539.037,"end":11557.06,"text":"對 但他這一次的主要的方向就是針對日本嘛因為每一次可能不一樣他當然他的起這個引爆點是因為他講到了台灣這個兩岸之間的關係但問題是他這一次主要針對的對象呢就是不管在經濟上的打擊或者是他在這個演習上的方面都是針對日本"},{"start":11558.081,"end":11568.8,"text":"那我要問的是當高市早苗首相他說台灣有事日本有事的時候那我們的態度請問會說出日本有事就是台灣有事這樣子的說法嗎"},{"start":11569.383,"end":11590.252,"text":"因為中共如果要找事的話大家都會有事因為他就是對台灣平常就這樣其實就在現在他雖然在這個黃海軍演他的基建也都是不斷的侵入我們的所以我要問的事情是說我們會配合日方採取同等的軍事行動嗎"},{"start":11591.112,"end":11610.826,"text":"沒有 他那個邏輯是因為有日美安保條約而美國跟台灣又有台灣關係法某種準同盟的關係好了所以這個當中共對台灣有軍事行動會影響到周邊國家包括日本菲律賓那美國怎麼反應會牽動日本的反應"},{"start":11611.606,"end":11631.332,"text":"他的架構是這樣子所以前半段說台灣有事就是日本有事其他下半段就是日美安保有事日美安保條約之後下一個就是台灣跟美國還有台灣跟日本之間的關係他是分成好幾段然後呢這個間接的串聯在一起的我們都知道"},{"start":11631.832,"end":11652.847,"text":"那我今天要問的事情是說安保法的危機事件有三種樣態第三種就是一些類似台灣有事日本有事其他還有包括可能日中之間直接有事啊可能美國跟中國之間也發生了一些有事啊所以這個當然台灣都會受影響不要講說純粹的軍事經濟安全各方面都會影響我先問軍事等一下會問你經濟嘛因為它是一層一層來的嘛"},{"start":11659.232,"end":11673.382,"text":"所以我的意思就是說如果今天中日雙方的衝突升高到軍事的層級的話那台灣這裡從外交的角度來說您會建議採取同等的軍事行動手段嗎"},{"start":11674.475,"end":11686.883,"text":"這不一樣的我們當然基於台灣的國家的安全的考量去做因應那當然因為第一島鏈都是彼此連動的啦連動歸連動但是比如說我跟委員講台灣的北邊就是宮古海峽那南邊就是巴西海峽我舉個另外一個例子來講以釣魚台來說那中日台三方我們的意見就不一樣"},{"start":11697.29,"end":11710.994,"text":"所以並不是說只要在第一島鏈上面所有的意見都是一致的很難講像是比如說我們在南海或東海來講的話其實也不見得大家的想法是一致的是既合作又有競爭的關係這個其實是比較正確的說法只是說兩岸之間的關係尤為特殊對不對"},{"start":11717.897,"end":11729.947,"text":"所以我剛聽懂您的意思了另外就是我們會透過外交的方式與包含日本形成一個聯盟來共同對抗中國大陸嗎我們並沒有所謂的條約或集體安全的這個架構目前我知道沒有這個架構未來會不會有這樣的規劃"},{"start":11741.874,"end":11757.96,"text":"目前就是大家因為第一島鏈某種程度是一個戰場只要哪個地方發生軍事的衝突都會連帶影響周邊的國家連帶影響跟有沒有要出來協助是兩回事我們國家利益去做因應"},{"start":11759.22,"end":11781.434,"text":"我們第一個當然就是我們跟美國有台灣關係法六項保證這個是一種比較準同盟的關係至於我們跟日本跟菲律賓是沒有這樣的一個制度的安排所以我要問的問題就是這個就是說我們因為高市早苗首相的這一番話那也掀起了中日的風波在這個突發的事件之後"},{"start":11782.475,"end":11799.327,"text":"台日之間有沒有可能會組成另外的一個聯盟採取對抗中國大陸無論是從經濟或外交的手段上面去進一步的聯合作戰這樣子的一個情況目前沒有這樣的一個制度性的安排"},{"start":11799.987,"end":11817.663,"text":"我只是說因為很多的關係會連動但是也不是零和的就是說我們現在其實我跟委員報告日本跟中國日本跟台灣的關係也可以是平行也可以是有互相交集美國跟中國美國跟台灣的關係也可以平行也可以有一些連動的交集所以這個是很複雜又涉及到我們在印太的第一島鏈沒有集體安全的條約"},{"start":11824.388,"end":11849.962,"text":"就看雙邊的條約對嘛如果有的話我就不需要問這個問題就是因為沒有然後又發生了這個事件所以我才會問說那未來台日之間會不會有形成一個更明確的同盟關係或者是就是維持目前的現狀而已比剛才柯爺這個在問高知早苗的時候更假設性我一定會問一些假設性的問題因為這個scenario"},{"start":11853.204,"end":11881.273,"text":"沒有 這不是假設性的問題是因為如果我們有這樣的規劃的話那台日雙方那一定會先有一個粗淺的互動那有確認雙邊有意願之後才進一步的往前走嘛那所以它不是一個假設性的問題它是看到了這個中日之間的衝突升高而且與台灣有關之後那台日之間有沒有打算或者我方這裡有沒有可能向日本提議組成新一步的同盟"},{"start":11881.813,"end":11885.117,"text":"我們目前並沒有這樣的制度性的同盟的關係最多是惡鬼對話或者是像自民黨內它有2加2的這個對話這樣我就會非常了解您的意思了那最後想要請教一個問題就是不曉得您有沒有看到在這個週刊最近經常提到您跟這個吳釗燮這個國安委會秘書長的關係"},{"start":11903.575,"end":11905.737,"text":"那坦白說我不知道為什麼這個媒體要不斷的用這樣子的方式然後呢寫這麼多的新聞然後來討論這些事情而且呢其實很多都是比如說放話涉外人士說許思簡沒有辦法去美國是林佳龍在擋啊有些國安會議把林佳龍擋在門外啊然後呢這個刻意篩選什麼簡報啊等等細節我不想講因為這都叫做放話"},{"start":11932.916,"end":11950.321,"text":"我對於這種放話的新聞坦白說我是非常不屑的但為什麼今天要來這裡詢問您就是因為希望讓您有一個說明跟澄清的機會因為這已經是連續好幾次都有這樣子的新聞那我覺得既然我們一直在講台灣要團結中華民國要團結"},{"start":11952.822,"end":11979.519,"text":"如果今天連我們自己在國安會還有外交部都被內部的新聞人士或者是放話的人做成是像這樣子的內容的話對於我們一致對外絕對會是不利的所以是不是給我們部長一點點時間說明一下就是說到底您覺得為什麼會有這種情況那以及你覺得有什麼方式去改善或者是您的一些看法跟意見"},{"start":11980.869,"end":12002.148,"text":"報告委員我作為外交部長我很知道外交部的權責我就是全力把它做好至於有些媒體的報導有不實我們就澄清也呼籲因為有一些是真的是與事實很大的出入可不可以我們講一下但是標題下得很聳動對 標題很聳動可不可以在這個時間點稍微幫我們講一下說"},{"start":12008.553,"end":12019.164,"text":"在您看到這些裡面有哪一些與事實不符的因為我今天是希望給外交部一個很好的澄清的機會因為我覺得這些報導對我們的外交對我們的國家並不是好事好不好我跟委員報告就是根據我們的憲法還有我們包括外交部的組織法"},{"start":12028.914,"end":12054.5,"text":"那我的權責 那我要向立法院負責的我們的預算也是要立法院通過所以我就秉持這樣的原則我找外交部讓他發揮最大的功能至於別人或是其他或各種方式有不一樣的想法或是報導那我們就去說明那就是讓他在一個制度性的軌道上去讓 我講的就是壯大外交部就是壯大台灣"},{"start":12056.26,"end":12065.606,"text":"我們外交也是國安的一部分我知道 因為我時間不夠我是要讓你說明說裡面到底有哪些地方寫是錯誤的嘛那你現在講哪一點比較具體一點比如說什麼徐思簡沒有辦法派出美國是你在黨"},{"start":12080.626,"end":12106.44,"text":"這一點來講就是我們外交部都沒有啟動對駐美代表人士的調整這是事實所以我們就盡量的說明事實國安會有一些會議會把你擋在外面後來又被推翻說實在弄得我頭很大因為我搞不太清楚他們在講的是什麼不知會部長是直接通知外交部的單位把你擋在門外國安會的會議不讓你參加我覺得這個報導都太過"},{"start":12111.257,"end":12137.924,"text":"好像有一個天眼或是什麼擋在門外這怎麼可能的事情然後台美的高層重要的特殊對話安全議題的平台2023年、2024年會議都是國安會秘書長跟外交部長一同赴美今年外交部卻一度差點掉隊然後是您極力爭取次長陳明綺才能夠一同前往美國"},{"start":12139.244,"end":12145.128,"text":"有這件事嗎因為我跟美國的一個溝通對話的管道都很暢通所以說謝謝您把這幾個內容大概就是這樣子然後是做了一個我也覺得很奇怪的報導我也希望如果未來週刊它持續提出這樣子的放話而且不實的消息外交部要考慮除了澄清之外要考慮提高"},{"start":12166.843,"end":12184.59,"text":"我有抗議你有抗議因為我敢抗議就是代表我自己很清楚它有一些跟事實不合的地方會造成傷害我一定要說明這算是第二次了如果還有第三次跟第四次那您都認為與事實不符除了抗議之外我建議您要"},{"start":12185.45,"end":12212.067,"text":"更有勇氣去提高因為如果長此以往下去那對於台灣看我們包含我們自己人看外交部國安會以及那你說中國大陸他看外交部跟國安會世界各國看我們外交部跟國安會他看到的都是錯誤資訊的時候對我們的國家形象一定是不利的所以這一點我想我支持部長繼續那為對的事情努力好不好 謝謝好 一起來努力 謝謝好 謝謝因為有些"},{"start":12215.638,"end":12226.08,"text":"有些國人說造謠的時候都是羈押所以這個很重要這影響國際接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請部長請部長各位好"},{"start":12245.103,"end":12261.401,"text":"部長好 我們今天來討論整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展的策略跟推展因為我們台灣有很多公認的優勢的這個產業跟制度比如說我們的醫療健保體系"},{"start":12262.102,"end":12288.398,"text":"我們的這個農業科技以及數位治理這都是我們可以輸出跟我們的友邦跟新興市場來做合作的軟實力但是我們看到過去的國會似乎都散落在專案補助這第一個第二個點狀的這個計畫第三個就是整個缺乏一個整體性的一個戰略規劃"},{"start":12289.318,"end":12307.233,"text":"所以本期要請教到目前為止我們有沒有一個跨部會來做整合的國家優勢輸出的策略這樣子的一個主軸跟路線圖然後依照這個方向大方向的一個戰略那這些到底是哪一些"},{"start":12308.153,"end":12333.525,"text":"我們可以依照我們自己規劃的KPI績效的一個評估機制來做有效哪一方面是適合的哪一方面是有效的再依照這樣子來鎖定你的目標也就是鎖定哪些國家哪一些的產業這樣子是不是才能夠真正的有效能的退出因為我們不管剛剛所說的醫療保健"},{"start":12334.165,"end":12352.978,"text":"我們的農業科技這些都是我們非常有利的一個軟實力請做說明好 謝謝委員確實我們在推動總和外交的三連戰略其中一個經濟外交就反映在農幫計畫有八大旗艦可是為了要推動這個我們有在行政院成立一個經濟外交工作小組"},{"start":12353.738,"end":12382.252,"text":"有十個部位大家一起來討論比如說您提到的醫療農業跟數位治理像醫療我們除了這個醫護人員包括這一些醫診我們總要去建構他的智慧醫療的系統包括HEAST也就是醫療資訊系統因為有這個大數據AI分析遠距的應用那我們比如說在巴拉圭它有1300家的這個公立所屬的醫院裡面有1000家以上我們都已經建置HEAST"},{"start":12383.172,"end":12401.466,"text":"這個是不得了的大數據加上AI分析以後透過雲端那這個就是他們會變成Taiwan can helpParaguay can lead它會 巴拉圭成為在拉丁美洲最可以說彎道超車這個智慧醫療跟健康產業的魔漢神同樣的農業"},{"start":12403.067,"end":12419.554,"text":"我們過去可能去幫忙他做一些技術團等等可是怎麼樣去把智慧新農業我們的一些智慧解決方案包括人才的培訓以外我們的設備然後可以幫他做出來他可以輸出到他周邊國家比如他的種苗"},{"start":12420.274,"end":12442.141,"text":"比如他的雞蛋 比如他的魚這個就是另外一種農幫計畫數位治理尤其是因為不要講說資安現在的數據經濟跟平台經濟之下他的政府的入口網站他所有的電子化這一些都是大數據所以我們在幫一些加勒比海國家建立他們自己有些在做數位身份證所以他會變成一個就是所謂的數位治理的模範生"},{"start":12448.163,"end":12472.058,"text":"所以這個 部長你現在回答到這裡 這三項就是以往我們以專案補助 以典狀的一個計畫所以本席希望 我們必須 就正如你剛剛所說的這個跨部會要怎麼樣去執行 這才是能夠有效能我再補充一下 比如說我們有雙部長會議我們必須要有績效的一個評估"},{"start":12472.918,"end":12494.769,"text":"到底我們做了之後我們的評估我們的KPI指數有沒有達到那我們才可以來做滾動式的一個檢討這是非常重要的接下來本校要請問台美談判總統先生之前說了一句話他說就差鄰門一角這個鄰門一角到底是哪一角請教"},{"start":12496.972,"end":12522.928,"text":"應該說台美的有關於關稅談判在技術性的磋商都已經有結果了有結果了那什麼時候會公佈呢有一個版本了有一個版本還沒有簽但是因為美國它涉及到還有232這個條款因為我們台灣的半導體直通訊跟美國之間的關係所以總統先生所說的只差你們一腳到底是差哪一腳請說說明"},{"start":12524.485,"end":12525.31,"text":"就是川普總統的決定"},{"start":12528.018,"end":12556.451,"text":"就是因為他很多事情要到他那邊去他做最後的決定不然我們跟這個USTR跟這個商務部財政部他們的部長首長都談了大家都很滿意他們對台灣的方案基本上是支持的因為外交部是執行外交政策的一個大總管因為總統先生也這麼說了只差你們一腳那你剛剛回答是說這個一腳就是川普他點頭跟不點頭是不是如此"},{"start":12558.272,"end":12583.905,"text":"所以他會在這個既有的方案上會不會做什麼加減目前因為大家一直期待到底我們談的內容是什麼到底方向是什麼民眾還不知所以在這樣的情況之下您剛才回答是說目前我們跟美方談的大概都已經抵定就等川普這一些的計畫都已經抵定就等川普點頭不點頭有沒有拍板定案是不是如此"},{"start":12584.685,"end":12590.011,"text":"本席的解讀可以如此嗎最後我們談判的內容是不是已經有一個方向了有確定這個方向而就待川普決定不決定是不是如此獨統委員講就在這個階段就在這個階段請教"},{"start":12606.188,"end":12615.234,"text":"這個美國媒體也暴露喔台美的關稅貿易談判台灣要仿效喔韓國跟日本喔3500億到5500億喔不管是KPI還是人口數我們的比例跟他們差倍有兩倍至五倍那如果真的成如美國的媒體所說的那本席要請教部長是真的嗎你剛才說已經確認喔是真的嗎是我們要投資美方的3500億到"},{"start":12635.988,"end":12641.092,"text":"這個5500億日韓的這個部分是不是不是這個意思我是說有一個方案台美的這個技術性的磋商在這個部分已經 部長不要再扭到旁邊去我請問因為你是外交部長是很重要的在這一次談判當中請問部長是不是美方要求我們在日韓3500億到5500億的美元的一個對美投資我們就是在這個中間我們有沒有這個方向有沒有這個答應"},{"start":12666.243,"end":12690.882,"text":"因為主談者是鄭麗君副院長然後是行政院經貿談判辦公室我們外交部是談與其間但這個還是要由他們來對外發言你是主管外交啊你是主管外交你剛剛信誓旦旦告訴本席說你的方向都已經確認就待川普同不同意拍不拍板定案本席要告訴你因為外交部長的角色太重要了"},{"start":12691.562,"end":12703.733,"text":"美國想要利用關稅讓台灣付出用交易的這個邏輯來談判這個是非常明顯的所以本席才會請教你是不是就在這個數字當中要求我們台灣必須要這樣投資美國是不是"},{"start":12710.466,"end":12728.823,"text":"因為我們有談判的團隊站在外交部就是怎麼樣把台美關係能夠發展的好就是美國優先 台灣也優先美國偉大 台灣也偉大創造雙贏就是我外交部的角色至於說投資不是絕對修正怎麼樣投資美國可以壯大台灣對"},{"start":12732.026,"end":12736.467,"text":"就是說你這一句就重點了喔因為你是外交部長喔因為目前大家看到是以教育式的邏輯來做談判所以堅持我們不能當PANA我們也不能只有當提款機怎麼樣鞏固台灣的這個立場產業食安我們不能把我們的產業把我們的食安的風險來作為談判的籌碼這你應該"},{"start":12759.193,"end":12784.125,"text":"會認同嗎 這個總統還有談判團隊都有講包括一些優先的原則所以本期還是要建議我們一定要堅持在自主跟對等的情況上讓台灣的立場是站得住的而且是維護台灣的產業維護台灣的安全 維護人民的食安是 這也是我們共同的目標 我們來努力"},{"start":12787.746,"end":12791.188,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴世保委員上台諮詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的林部長請林部長委員好部長你好"},{"start":12816.75,"end":12820.092,"text":"這個看這兩天美國參議院 國會他們說通過了一個叫做台灣保證實施法案等著川普的簽署這個法案中的內容就是把我們要去華府的官員的層級原來有些限制都把它拿掉了是不是這個意思就是我請教你在這個之前"},{"start":12846.075,"end":12851.139,"text":"外交部長 我們的外交部長 國防部長是不是基本上不能到華府當然院長根本不用講 院長根本不用講行政院長根本不用講就是外交部長 國防部長行政院長幾乎都沒去啊告訴我哪一院去了 沒有啊對不對 沒有嘛那現在這個法通過以後是不是可以去了如果"},{"start":12874.861,"end":12893.068,"text":"我該去的時候我就會去所以現在你都不該去是不是你當然要突破啊有一些外交的事情我也不方便在這裡講太細你當然要突破啊對你來講的話你涉及到雙邊的關係你應該抓住這個機會要去啊你有沒有想去嘛 我就問你嘛當然站在我們就是有機會當然是應該要去啊還沒開始規劃現在飛機很方便啊好 那我再進一步問了"},{"start":12904.286,"end":12906.087,"text":"船舶會簽署嗎這個參眾兩院都通過理應啦應該是會尊重參眾兩院但是沒有到簽署確定我們也不能代言啊對 那我問你大概什麼時候可以簽署還有一個時間啊國會法案那個北美事查一下 幾天10天不包括週日"},{"start":12933.733,"end":12943.976,"text":"10天喔 所以從昨天開始算10天不包括周日那就在11月底 渴望川普是簽署他有沒有什麼理由可以不簽署 有沒有這個歷史上都有啊有嘛 涉及到否決權或是其他的程序他還是可以不簽署嘛他現在拼命要巴結習近平啦他會不會簽署還不知道喔 打一個問號喔那這個順帶一會比較重要的是 請問"},{"start":12960.723,"end":12984.253,"text":"今年底之前賴總統你有沒有可能安排賴總統過境外交有沒有這個可能我們台美關係都是建立在這個就是說我們的過境訪問都是有過去的慣例啦一些原則可以參考那今年就沒有了嗎確定沒有了嗎今年今年還沒有結束啊"},{"start":12985.209,"end":12997.599,"text":"一個多月而已啊但是我也不是說今年會有沒有我是說其實元首出訪或過境是外交部的重點工作那有關相關的安排對外的說明會有總統府他們對外來做說明但是安排是你安排的啊安排是你安排的嘛對不對你現在都沒有啟動任何安排我想沒有說什麼啟動不啟動我們隨時都在安排中這樣今年賴總統都沒有去美國咧"},{"start":13015.964,"end":13017.366,"text":"這樣你外交部長失職喔他這麼重要的事情他要過境美國啊這對我們總統來講很重要啊是不是這樣是人手出訪或過境是很重要的過境啊 對啊這是你的事情啊結果這樣子"},{"start":13033.848,"end":13038.571,"text":"我們外交部都會參與期間但是總統府他有一套機制包括對外的說明或者是來 我們看到啊這個這兩天吵了很大的題目就日本的首相高市長苗他的願望化之後啊我看到你的好朋友啊就蹭這個聲量啊吳釗燮啊 你的好朋友啊你要不要也蹭一下這個聲量你要不要講幾句"},{"start":13062.868,"end":13070.291,"text":"我們第一時間就有發表聲明啦我沒有看到林佳龍點兩點沒有這個啊外交部啊 部長就是林佳龍啊那你再講一下吧你要講的比要override吳釗燮啊你的好朋友啊 你override他啊我們都代表國家外交部代表我們國家的外交嘛吳釗燮的講話他吳釗燮對外這樣子去罵老共他是代表國安會還是代表個人啊"},{"start":13092.563,"end":13099.15,"text":"請問你是問我外交部還問我國安會他不是問你吳釗燮講話是代表國安會還是代表他個人這你應該問他"},{"start":13103.786,"end":13109.287,"text":"我只能夠代表外交部啊我做球給你你都不敢講話你的好朋友這樣子吃你豆腐你都不敢講話對不對照理講國安會它是一個幕僚單位啊要講話是外交部講話怎麼是國安會講話你看我做球給你你看我對你都好給你發揮你不要發揮不敢發揮你怕他喔我跟他很熟啦我們都有在LINE來LINE去的好朋友 你跟他是好朋友"},{"start":13134.429,"end":13143.211,"text":"這三四十年 學者從政我們過去都有時候職務換來換去我也在國安會待過他也在外交部待過我們兩個都在總統府待過副秘書長跟秘書長可能像我們兩個職務這樣子從田那麼大的多的也很少你對外說你們兩個是好朋友就不太相信了在座誰會舉手十個裡面沒有一個舉手"},{"start":13158.194,"end":13171.745,"text":"大家都不相信啊公務跟私語要分開啊公務要就事論事啊所以你們是有你們是有私語不錯啊公務不好就這樣沒有啦就事論事其實很多事情都是為了國家嘛對啦私語有私語但是公這個公務不好你的解讀就是這樣對不對我們合作完成了很多事情現在人家在講你啊說人家一直要你的位子啊說把你點名叫你去選桃園市長啊"},{"start":13188.342,"end":13194.466,"text":"對不對 這個謊話的人是誰人家要你位子啊 你要小心你的位子啊你要不要說什麼說要去討論選市長的事情要不要講一點我現在的角色 外交部長我們把外交部長 為國家盡最大的力量這個選舉的事 外面報導來報導去你有沒有辦法每件事情都去回應啊"},{"start":13215.06,"end":13225.094,"text":"我現在就已經給你機會回應了啊人家要你選桃園市長你覺得怎麼樣啊也不錯啊這個能打下來如果你能打下來那也不錯啊"},{"start":13226.311,"end":13232.134,"text":"我就是把外交部長的角色做好可見的你覺得外交部長做的比選桃園市長容易桃園市長不容易了詹先生做這麼好你居然當炮灰了對不對 站在這樣子有好朋友立場我也勸你不要去啦你會害啦 你要去會害啦中了人家的劑啦對不對 拼拼點頭 謝謝謝謝委員的關心好 謝謝"},{"start":13253.564,"end":13256.906,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請外交部長還有衛福部次長請林部長還有衛福部次長"},{"start":13287.745,"end":13293.107,"text":"部長次長這個星期在台北的國際會議中心有一場2025年台灣全球健康福祉的論壇活動與世界各國的官方專家學者一起在探討國際關注的健康還有社會福利的議題"},{"start":13305.673,"end":13320.526,"text":"這是論壇從2005年創立到每年定期在台灣是由衛福部和外交部共同主辦的論壇請問一下這整個活動的邀請是由哪一個部會主導和安排還是你們都有怎麼樣的如何分工我們兩個部會會討論完之後再進行邀請"},{"start":13327.141,"end":13330.944,"text":"據了解說今年我看了這個整個論壇是吸引了13個國家13個國家來參與然後還有多位的國際重量級的學者到訪並分享了交流就是全球衛生社福領域的實踐的經驗確實是將台灣的健保還有醫療的優勢推向國際舞台和國際接軌的重要的平台"},{"start":13347.518,"end":13376.284,"text":"那請問你們這次邀請的總共有多少國家還有有沒有被邀請沒有來出席的國家有沒有進一步了解為什麼他們不願意出席還是這些國家根本沒有參加的意願跟委員報告第一個事情其實我們這個論壇就像您剛剛所說從2005年辦到現在那當然我們除了原來就有的一些友邦國家在台灣的代表之外那包含他們自己本身譬如說這次海地的這個衛生部長也有來就是我們的"},{"start":13376.864,"end":13402.552,"text":"這一些友邦國家他們自己的衛生主管官員那另外今年很重要的事情是因為今年是我們健保30年那台灣的這個健保的finance他的這個整個保險制度在整個面臨到高齡少子化的挑戰全世界都有面對這樣的問題或很多的國家我們的可能沒有邦交但是我們有類似狀況的國家遇到這樣的問題所以這一次我們今年事實上是由我們健保署這邊也出面來邀請很多在"},{"start":13403.312,"end":13422.457,"text":"不論是公共衛生或者是在醫療專業還有包含就是在整個醫療財政方面的這些專家一起來那其實其中包含很多都是國際級的專家那這裡面當然有一些會沒有辦法來比方說他本身他的時間就有困難或者是他在他的哪些國家沒有辦法來呢"},{"start":13423.437,"end":13437.529,"text":"這我沒有辦法在這邊算給委員因為可能比方說我們可能找了一個專家是美國的可能找了好幾位美國的專家可能有幾位有來有幾位沒有來那沒關係而且像也跟委員報告譬如說有一位專家他是美國籍"},{"start":13438.45,"end":13459.682,"text":"可是他代表的是歐盟那邊的這一個健康包含我們講的健康還有財務上的分析反而他還自嘲說他在他自己美國那邊他們在健康財務上面投資不如台灣等等所以這個狀況當然沒有辦法讓我先講一下就是這一次的論壇其實當然是為了營造我國政府的官員和其他國家的官員檯面和私下的交流"},{"start":13460.442,"end":13471.613,"text":"但是我這樣來看參與的政府官員大概有13個國家我國的邦交國有12個國家所以本席這樣仔細的整個核對之後根本是高度的重疊所以這個論壇看起來就像是當然上面是寫國際接軌的國際論壇但實際上是根本就是邦交國在取卵"},{"start":13480.32,"end":13506.415,"text":"其實我們這一次除了我們邦交國這一邊第一個事情我們還是要這樣強調邦交國這一些衛生部長跟衛生官員在WHO給我們非常多的支持他們幫我們做辯護他們幫我們做遊說這一些我們邦交國的這些部長衛生部長我們不可以說自以取暖我們非常感謝他們而且我們跟他們有非常多的這些公共衛生跟醫療的援助跟合作就像剛剛林部長提到的我們幫忙他們建置很多智慧的醫療系統"},{"start":13507.335,"end":13533.04,"text":"已经十年了我们要一直的突破不是一直在那边跟邦交国而已再跟您报告今年我们其他非邦交国包含有美国英国德国法国比利时波兰瑞士日本韩国我们总共有十个国家四十位国际专家而且这里面的专家包含了都是高阶的社福官员包含公共卫生领域这些非常顶级的教授或者是热带医学跟美国公共卫生协会的执行长"},{"start":13533.84,"end":13555.637,"text":"所以其實這樣講我們在這個論壇最重要的事情不是只有政治上面或國際外交上面最重要的一個精神是我們一直強調進WHO或相關的這些國際組織就是摒除國際社會在政治上對台灣的孤立而能夠在專業領域跟各國的專家在專業的立場上面分享我們的政策跟各國之間的困境"},{"start":13556.858,"end":13560.802,"text":"每年邀請的這些國家和外國的官員與會這樣我們除了會議交流之外有沒有什麼具體的雙邊的多邊的依偎上面的合作計畫呢就例如有沒有在簽署多少份MOU還是這些MOU的執行的進度和成效是怎麼樣報告委員我們簽署MOU這個部分其實MOU是簽我們有合作計畫"},{"start":13576.92,"end":13591.356,"text":"有合作的意願我想您了解那有這個意願之後最重要的事情是我們能不能落實後續的合作但是我們每年是不是都要多多突破呢我們不可能永遠都是在這些"},{"start":13592.317,"end":13615.405,"text":"我們不是只有在全球健康論壇這裡我們包含我們提到了我們在WHA的會議期間因為讓各國的這些官員都在那裡所以我們在WHA的會議期間我們也有雙邊跟多邊MOU的簽署或者是後續的一些多邊的合作計劃那再來有些事情不是在這個論壇上簽而已他平常就在做的那我再問一下次長"},{"start":13616.405,"end":13619.947,"text":"照你這樣講的話這次美國 日本 歐洲這些有參與我們有針對一些特定的問題一起來分享像健保的經驗還是醫療的照護還有醫藥的創新科技但是我這樣一看如果既然我們都是這樣想要跟國際接軌那日本這次也有參加然後日本也開放了緊急病藥在轉類上只是用藥讓民眾可以直接的取得而且讓民眾可以選擇生育自足"},{"start":13645.04,"end":13671.806,"text":"那結果台灣為什麼還不願意跟國際接軌呢跟委員這邊報告其實像這樣子的一場論壇裡面我們都會發現各個國家不論是他原來的各種法規或者是他國家裡面的醫療可進性還有醫療服務的模式跟相關的法規事實上都是不同的所以您所提到沒有錯日本可能有這樣子的一個制度在規劃台灣在您的推動之下我們也不斷的在跟相關的利害關係人以及相關的學術因為你這個可能要盡快因為已經88個世界"},{"start":13674.087,"end":13679.389,"text":"88個國家都已經通過了每個國家在相關的法規有不同的立場而且每個國家包含醫療可進性還有他們對於特定的專業領域之間的規範是不同的那我先問一下有沒有進展這邊我們持續還在溝通我想委員您也清楚這裡面在相關的我們講State Holder裡面學協會對於他的安全性還有在運用上面都有很多不同的意見"},{"start":13698.115,"end":13712.754,"text":"那這裡面因為各法規的不同所以我想我們這邊還在討論而且事實上就像您所關注到的指示用藥跟我們的處方藥不只是我們講的這個事後避孕這個案子事實上還有很多指示用藥跟我們的處方藥的政策我們也都一併在做檢討"},{"start":13713.755,"end":13718.437,"text":"好那我再問一個問題次長這個論壇是不是有特別強調與WHO關注的議題的連結還有為什麼台灣到現在還是沒有辦法正式參與WHA現在特別是請問一下衛福部還有那個外交部你們怎麼樣評估這一個這個論壇對爭取WHO和WHA的觀察員的身份到底有沒有幫助這是第一個問題第二個問題就是剛才沈伯陽委員也有詢問到"},{"start":13739.164,"end":13752.707,"text":"台灣是不是還可以再拚一次加入WHO那你認為台灣還有沒有機會再重返呢如果兩岸關係都一直無解的話我們要如何重返呢我覺得我想我這邊先報告就是說我們一再強調台灣在醫療專業上不論是在COVID-19期間或者是各式各樣的公共衛生跟我們的醫療服務的專業"},{"start":13761.149,"end":13782.967,"text":"我們在透過這麼多次不斷每一年的全球論壇或者是相關的學協會合作讓全球的專家都清楚知道台灣的專業跟能力那大家也越來越清楚讓台灣無法進到WHO這個重要的國際組織裡面協助全球的重要公共衛生業務事實上最大的阻撓是中共用政治的方式來影響全球得到好的公共衛生跟專業照顧"},{"start":13784.348,"end":13792.71,"text":"有沒有在努力呢所以我們不斷在努力可是當全球這麼多的國家在整個政治上面被中國在這邊的干預的時候我想大家很清楚問題出在中國而不是出在台灣因為我剛才有聽到次長在講說像這些大家都有在努力啦譬如醫生啊護理師公會都有努力啊但是我想是否可以納入藥師呢讓醫藥一心呢一同來努力因為總不可能說都沒有機會"},{"start":13809.394,"end":13814.099,"text":"在好幾年前在利用立法院的身份去參加我們WHA的勢導的時候事實上當時藥師團體也有在我們每一年第一個事情跟委員報告全球這個我們在衛生福利部這一邊當然是以官方還有我們的一些團體的方式出去可是各團體"},{"start":13829.975,"end":13837.321,"text":"包含醫師公會藥師公會全聯會護理師公會全聯會牙醫師公會全聯會還有醫學生甚至包含我們醫學生的組織他們還曾經在國際社會組織裡面國際組織裡面爭取到擔任他們學協會的秘書長跟主席"},{"start":13844.787,"end":13864.82,"text":"所以這邊我們事實上也非常借重各位在專業領域的角色因為各位在專業團體內部不論是重要的國際會議或者是國際參與我們非常希望能夠來協助跟支持大家如果我們所有的這些學協會都在相關的國際學協會裡面都是秘書長 都是常務理事 都是理事長"},{"start":13865.68,"end":13892.322,"text":"那事實上我們實質在這些重要會議裡面我們都可以進入正式的會議去參加所以我現在也是要注意就是說其實大家都是一起想要為國家努力包括藥師盡量不要排除在外面我們絕對不會排除而且拜託您您現在是理事長所以也非常歡迎您明年可以帶著藥師團體一起去參加好那我再問一個問題就是說金本席了解現在國和會每年都有招募海外服務的工作團有一個招募的簡章這樣但是"},{"start":13893.343,"end":13898.425,"text":"沒有明確的列出臨床藥師或藥學專業的需求那部長我想請問一下就是說為什麼沒有名列藥師的專業或者藥學專家的需求在這個簡章上面但是我又偏偏的留意到國和會的發表的電子報裡面附合作團的團隊中都有藥師參與在其中這些是怎麼招募來的還有例如巴拉圭還有圖瓦魯的醫療團請問一下這些醫療團的藥師是從哪裡來的"},{"start":13921.013,"end":13926.124,"text":"而且也沒有明確的列出需求那我想知道一下就是說這些藥師是怎麼樣知道這些資訊的好 我請次長跟我秘書來回應"},{"start":13931.321,"end":13958.469,"text":"跟委員先報告因為我自己就是國和會曾經支持的圖瓦魯醫療團的成員之一好那先跟委員報告就是等一下外交部可能可以補充我們在這些重要的邦交國的醫療援助服務裡面國和會給我們很多的支持那我們在各私立醫療院所協會有協調各相關的私立醫院或公立醫院去支援跟back up很多我們友邦國家的醫療服務那比方說像我們當時出去的時候我們自己醫院派出去的團一定會有藥師陪同"},{"start":13958.849,"end":13973.245,"text":"但是藥師陪同的角色事實上是協助當地醫療院所的藥師或當地的藥師增加他們的醫療能力增加他們的專業知能重點是培育他們的人協助他們的專業能力那就我們過去的經驗事實上是這個樣子以上先跟委員補充"},{"start":13974.086,"end":13978.848,"text":"那個主席再給我一分鐘一下還有一個就是說我們醫療團的團員還是志工不能用海外替代役取代嗎就是說也不是取代是他可以一起加入這樣因為國和會在外交替代役裡面在申請資格的專長中有關醫療的專長方面只有列醫學護理公共衛生還有醫療資訊還有營養這樣就是沒有藥學的專長"},{"start":13998.996,"end":14020.57,"text":"那之前你們有來解釋說這是因為他們國家沒有提出藥學的需求所以不需要藥學專長的外交替代役那我本身是建議外交部是不是要跟內政部討論一下爭取一下海外替代役是不是要增列整個藥學的專長呢好 我們把他納入這一波對於外交替代役的改革裡面來做評估我們盡量來促成好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":14028.8,"end":14033.142,"text":"我們接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢主席好麻煩請外交部長請林部長"},{"start":14055.795,"end":14069.561,"text":"部長好這個有一個新聞是說美國台積電亞利桑那廠他的第三季的獲利只剩下4100萬元跟上一季42.32億來比剩下1%部長你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":14074.4,"end":14102.159,"text":"我還沒看到他主要的原因是因為美國的這個廠的營運成本節節上升所以吃掉他的利潤那我有幾件事情想要跟部長請問請教一下雖然說您是不是外就是台美關稅談判的主要的負責但是外交部也是扮演很重要的角色第一個我覺得川普對於台灣的晶片一直抱有一種歧視的感覺他最近在接受媒體訪問的時候他又講"},{"start":14103.16,"end":14129.383,"text":"他說全部的晶片生意都被台灣搶走很可恥當然他講的是之前的美國政府他認為以前的美國政府怎麼會把晶片這種東西拿給台灣來做但我覺得他怎麼會這樣講台灣晶片能夠做出來是靠台灣的人才跟努力那個晶片換一個國家做不見得做得出來所以川普這樣講的意思好像完全我覺得完全抹煞了台灣的努力以及台灣的成就"},{"start":14130.534,"end":14152.384,"text":"然後他就把說讓台積電去美國投資這個事情視為是理所當然因為他認為這很簡單只是他不要做給台灣他現在要把它搶回去我覺得身為外交部長應該要對這個事情講幾句話我常常看到外交部在發言但是對於這種歧視台灣晶片成就的都沒有看到外交部來說兩句話可不可以幫台灣產業講兩句話 部長"},{"start":14154.946,"end":14175.239,"text":"台灣的產業對世界的貢獻就是我們的價值嘛所以以台積電來講大家都知道它是台灣的台積電也是世界的台積電它竟然在這個半導體的分工裡面它的製造力然後它整個工業鏈沒有 不能不要講大家都知道的事情請你用外交部長的身分當其他國家的總統"},{"start":14176.56,"end":14193.732,"text":"講出這種好像對於我們晶片我覺得帶有這種歧視的意味因為他的講法 如同委員講他講說這個是很丟臉的事是講他們自己對 但是他這樣講意思就是也抹煞我們的成就嘛我們對於比如說我們對海吉也會覺得希望他爭氣一點嘛"},{"start":14195.061,"end":14211.281,"text":"他不是那個意思部長你如果你解讀川普的話是這麼的是這樣解讀我就很擔心我們的外交啦全世界都知道外交部其實常常在發聲明其他的國家的媒體講了什麼或者是其他國家的誰講了什麼外交部常常會發聲明唯獨對川普都假裝看不到"},{"start":14215.353,"end":14237.724,"text":"就是人家覺得逢美必亂我覺得然後你的解讀居然是說那跟我們也沒關他是在恨鐵不成鋼我覺得部長你現在是不是有點做得異性藍衫是不是跟剛剛賴思寶委員問說要去選舉有關不會啦我覺得台灣的價值不是啦 該硬的時候該硬要你講一句話台灣產業會很甘心而且你的位置講最適合"},{"start":14239.132,"end":14259.301,"text":"我們台灣是加持外交為世界創造更大的附加價值所以不是川普講的如果台灣那麼好去取代那大家就是兄弟爬山各自努力有機會跟那個美國那邊講一下我們是我們很努力才有今天成就他今天就算沒有給我們做他也不見得做得起來啦"},{"start":14259.801,"end":14288.124,"text":"就像亞利桑那州為什麼會為什麼亞利桑那州會虧成這樣成本沒有虧就是獲利跳水就是因為這個原因那我想問因為現在台美關稅那時候我記得我也在這邊質詢過部長部長那時候就是信心滿滿就覺得我們很快就會有結果然後後來又變成暫時性然後我上次也有問你暫時多久從8月初又暫時到了11月快底了那現在看起來應該這個暫時快結束了吧"},{"start":14289.346,"end":14290.889,"text":"現在就剩下幾個國家還沒有定案對 我當然知道台灣 印度 巴西等等那還要暫時多久"},{"start":14298.172,"end":14315.338,"text":"現在就是談判要到一個階段實質的內容方案已經有一些磋商了現在就是說這個方案可不可以不要每次都不針對問題回答我們現在是覺得到底什麼叫暫時因為我們都做好準備也都談判到一個階段了那現在的問題是這樣韓國跟美國談完之後是說要去投資3500億對吧那他們的做法"},{"start":14324.341,"end":14336.756,"text":"他們的做法是會成立一個投資委員會而且他們也有在考慮說送到國會來做一個備查跟討論我想問我們政府到時候談的一個結果會送到國會來"},{"start":14338.013,"end":14365.592,"text":"該送到國會的人應該都會進程序會成立投資委員會嗎這不是我在這邊講的你可以講沒有 這個配套怎麼樣這是涉及台美的談判你可以參考一下韓國的做法因為我覺得韓國因為他很善用在野黨或者是國內的輿論其實對於他們對外談判有一個支撐大家是一起合作在對外談判那你現在政府談完了如果國內大家反彈很大那也來不及了"},{"start":14366.272,"end":14370.222,"text":"所以你應該要委員寶貴的意見我想我們都會納入對 然後"},{"start":14372.492,"end":14400.789,"text":"再來就是像政府一直告訴我們說我們現在有台灣模式雖然我們投資金額可能會很大之前傳說是介於日本跟韓國之間但是我們有台灣模式可是實際上台灣模式如果仿照什麼GDP在美國成立科學園區光一個台積電我剛剛就講了營運成本節節上升那它會延待影響的大家的擔憂就是會不會掏空台灣會不會造成產能以及勞動力的外流我覺得這一些"},{"start":14401.806,"end":14408.836,"text":"都到時候可能都要來處理啦大家都要深入討論啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":14434.668,"end":14437.27,"text":"請林部長我昨天大概跟"},{"start":14451.246,"end":14473.451,"text":"八位這個維新會的國務委員有見面對台日雙邊關係做一些討論那當然台灣有事日本有事高市首相在國會的答詢基本上他們也都認為他們都支持就台灣有事日本有事台灣沒事日本沒事"},{"start":14474.975,"end":14491.005,"text":"這種概念在他們政治圈在國會基本上已經形成一個共識了所以代表說日台關係非常的密切不管是民間 經濟 或者是政治"},{"start":14492.778,"end":14513.351,"text":"從這邊來看這個未來這個台日的雙邊的這個政務間的交流包括國會的交流政務間的這個交流能不能可能再提升的空間比如說這個台灣保證實施法案在美國通過眾議院大概五月六月就通過了"},{"start":14514.966,"end":14542.848,"text":"那這個參議院也通過就等川普總統簽署就生效所以他是打破過去的紅線未來更高層級的這個台美雙邊的官員互動會變成常態化那這個也確保說這個雙方的台美關係不會受到影響不會受到停滯對華管道也很通暢台日之間有沒有可能"},{"start":14545.05,"end":14566.028,"text":"我們來努力看看 我覺得我們跟大臣大概有困難那你這個層級可以直接見到美國的部長嗎現在 如果這個法案通過之後是說美國還是日本美國啦 美國 這通過之後 川普總統簽署之後你能不能直接見到美國相關的部長"},{"start":14568.329,"end":14592.243,"text":"這個應該是大家努力的方向應該沒有問題 因為有這個法案作為支撐那你現在去日本是沒有辦法接到大臣的很多都老朋友 該見面都會見面有些是涉及到公開或私下各種不同的互動關係台北不一樣 台北可以到公開"},{"start":14593.533,"end":14611.167,"text":"那我們去要見大臣 雖然他也是國會議員我們見大臣 也有 目前有一些的限制不成文的規定 默契了但是如果不公開也許可以那以前我記得大概可是日本也有在討論要制定台灣旅行法或是台灣關係法有在討論嗎"},{"start":14612.228,"end":14626.373,"text":"有啊 這個也是那個所以我期待說他們很多國會議員在努力的方向台日雙邊的互動的官方互動可以跟美國一樣因為美國跟日本是台灣最重要的友邦這個日本在地緣政治 地緣經濟是命運共同體所以才會有所謂這個台灣有事 日本有事這不是一個口號 這實際上的狀況"},{"start":14642.748,"end":14664.784,"text":"所以 我是跟委員講其實我們不要被中共制約嘛就是說他有邦交我們沒邦交為什麼沒邦交的國家政府不能正常的往來就像在打仗的國家也都可以談判一樣啊所以我認為那是過去中共他的一個就是說不斷造成的一個可以說"},{"start":14666.124,"end":14690.391,"text":"有它在所謂一中的政策之下就不能怎麼樣你講的我都同意我們要努力就是說在現有的框架之下打破來強化廣化跟日本官方的交流地方政府沒有問題我說中央層級大層 副大層我們目前去私底下可能可以見到但公開他們也覺得有過去的默契"},{"start":14691.383,"end":14715.643,"text":"那未來這個台日雙邊關係只有更深化還是要更深化所以我大概兩三個月就會拜訪國會這個各主要的這個黨派對台日雙邊關係做一些的討論那之前我在這邊也請教過部長就是說小多邊的概念你也提出來在你的報告裡面"},{"start":14716.857,"end":14726.964,"text":"對謝謝委員這安全上面是美日韓非呀這未來是不是有可能他們在軍演什麼或者是在聯合演習"},{"start":14728.407,"end":14754.197,"text":"台灣要努力成為觀察員那種多邊的這個架構裡面台灣好像在哪一個多邊架構有一個觀察員我說這個安全演習的部分未來台灣這個台海最重要的幾個夥伴就是美國日本跟韓國加上這個在東南亞的這個菲律賓所以這部分美日韓非怎麼樣讓這個小多邊能夠更加強化這個安全議題上面"},{"start":14754.963,"end":14771.965,"text":"另外台美 台灣 韓國跟日本更能夠三邊關係我覺得是一個命運共同體的概念如果南韓未來有一天說南韓有事 台灣有事就是南韓有事"},{"start":14773.99,"end":14788.042,"text":"這個可能發生啊這已經列入現在川普跟李在寧總統的聲明裡面了認為那個就是fact sheet那個事實文件裡面台海的問題不可能不影響到南韓嘛"},{"start":14788.973,"end":14818.059,"text":"但是他們也知道這個事實但沒有辦法從他們的首相或者他們領導人這個嘴巴裡面說出來所以像台灣有事 日本有事這個是大家都朗朗上口這個日本政績大家都有默契跟共識那民間也是這樣認為那南韓不敢講他們認為說這個講出來可能會顧及到中國的因素這是我們要努力的方向"},{"start":14819.648,"end":14842.245,"text":"所以台日韓三邊關係啊三國的互動非常密切那上次我請教過你這2加2台韓的2加2戰略對話目前有沒有進度呢是亞太斯亞太斯有沒有進度那您來我辦公室也開過好幾次會我下個月還會再去看一下這個也開過好幾次會到底有沒有進度啦"},{"start":14847.594,"end":14873.82,"text":"這個目前還沒有具體的進展啦應該這樣但是不管雙邊的2加2或小多邊的2加2去編織一個網格狀的安全架構那就是部分就是您講的小多邊因為我們目前大概跟美國都有雙邊的關係可是呢美國也企圖啦把它連結起來變成多邊是由好幾組雙邊所組成的這叫網格狀的一個安全架構台韓在加強"},{"start":14876.4,"end":14902.99,"text":"有點線面 把它串起來因為第一島鏈也是一個單一戰場很多大概都認識但是我覺得在這個外交部這個日晚代表處也要強化有一些惡鬼外交 你也知道包括國會議員在開始進行的或者是說1.5軌或是不是可以到1軌我想這個都是在國家的利益但我也要特別提到其實他們也是據他們國家的利益"},{"start":14903.57,"end":14921.061,"text":"不能夠沒有台灣啦因為台灣如果變缺口的話整個印太戰略就垮掉了嘛第一島鏈就變成中共可以啊到太平洋嘛我們守我們的位置他們也知道我們的重要性有些東西只能做不能說部長你講的我都同意我的結論很簡單有交流"},{"start":14923.863,"end":14946.264,"text":"才有對話有對話才有可能有合作的機會對不對對才有理念這個分享或者是價值觀的分享或者是這個這些這個戰略或者戰術的對話等等所以我說的是我自然在努力國會有國會努力的方向跟目標但是行政部門外交部也要責成諸行代表署要加強把這個2加2"},{"start":14948.803,"end":14977.325,"text":"把這個戰略對話整個架構把它建立起來那我們這邊來助攻你們這邊來規劃我們一起努力好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請徐富奎 徐富奎 徐富奎委員不在請蔡易宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":14989.938,"end":14995.38,"text":"謝謝主席那是不是有請我們外交部我們林部長請林部長部長好部長現在台灣大概是從台積電在整個不管是美國或者是歐洲 德國大概台積電的一個布局都在這邊設立所謂半導體廠"},{"start":15017.54,"end":15031.143,"text":"那基本上要在這些不同的文化的地方然後再做半導體的像台積電這樣高階的一些晶片的一些研發或者是製作"},{"start":15032.372,"end":15050.744,"text":"教育端也是很重要所以我想要請教部長就是說既然台積電有在德國設廠那我們跟歐盟或者德國他們如何去做他們自己的人才訓練呢還是說在人才訓練上他會跟台灣的教育單位有合作有 我們台灣現在有這個"},{"start":15056.368,"end":15069.312,"text":"半導體的所謂創新的學院在至少有六個大學都有設所以這裡面的人才培訓那我們外交部也有針對比如說中東歐這個民主供應鏈這個任性計畫"},{"start":15071.613,"end":15090.632,"text":"那我前一陣子也才頒發這個結業證書給將近十個國家來這邊培訓的人才那美國也有晶片法案它這個包括亞利桑那州立大學然後跟我們現在的陽明交大也有合作另外當然這個對於台積電來講最重要的就是人才"},{"start":15091.112,"end":15106.3,"text":"那人才是雙向的就怎麼樣去形成尤其像在德國如果你觀察得到的話除了在德士登這個晶圓廠之外他在慕尼黑也設晶片設計研發的中心那也需要大量的人才"},{"start":15106.8,"end":15109.281,"text":"我想美日歐都從人才的培養開始這個是新興科技產業的特色類似這樣一些人才的交流培養跟訓練跟怎麼樣去是這一些他們的人要過來過來我們台灣的大學體制來訓練還是變成說我們台灣是單方向的輸出這部分"},{"start":15132.891,"end":15154.352,"text":"這個人才只會越來越多因為有些是必須在地取材當然也必須要就是說比如說在亞利桑那州他們現在我們台美有教育倡議我們就會把這個半導體跟AI放進來那去提供更多的獎學金或者是補助讓這一個人才的質量可以快速的外國在接受這樣半導體的訓練的時候中文是他們的學習項目嗎"},{"start":15157.885,"end":15177.064,"text":"有一些我們會把語言項目也納入但是大部分我想都英文的教育做基礎英文教育因為事實上台灣事實上很多半導體業啦我跟他們在聊的時候他們都認為說外國的如果有半導體的專業但是如果中文不行的話基本上台灣的產業不好用"},{"start":15177.805,"end":15191.783,"text":"因為我們還是需要以中文在台灣還是要以中文尤其是在管理階層還是要以中文為主所以如果是外國的人才他們在中文的這一塊如果不足的話變成台灣這一端就不好用囉"},{"start":15193.758,"end":15220.198,"text":"其實很國際化的像台積電它當然我們自己人會用中文不過你跟外國人來往對他們來講這也是很基本的那些人才其實我們到了美國當然要用英文中文還是很重要的因為中文普通的交往可以但是你要到能夠用於真正很精準這種比較高階的心上是"},{"start":15221.235,"end":15249.407,"text":"短時間內是不容易的高階的一定是英文只是說生活上可能在這一塊所以我是覺得我的建議就是說在交流的部分事實上我們還是希望可以讓他們的人才可以來台灣受訓讓台灣的學校可以多可以有機會去接觸到像這些歐洲的他們的人才來台灣受訓然後來台灣這邊未來也可能在直接在台灣讓我們所用"},{"start":15250.967,"end":15272.198,"text":"沒有錯 我們最近也發生這個現象像我在幾個月前有一個100個海外人才各國派來的那有一些他除了在他們比如他如果在美國 日本 德國可能會留在那邊有台積電的廠另外有一些也會到台灣的廠所以人才的流動是雙向的你知道像菲律賓我們的這個封裝測試雖然是比較這個下游的"},{"start":15278.736,"end":15296.252,"text":"有一家半導體的工業用了一萬人這是個對於我們台飛經濟走廊未來我們要去發展半導體供應鏈在菲律賓就很重要我那天去拜訪北科大基本上他們現在很多學生不是菲律賓 泰國或印尼反而他們的半導體我們台灣的半導體以及這一些科技的學院因為三班制"},{"start":15301.997,"end":15307.861,"text":"對 現在印尼的學生是很多的就是說未來這一些雖然是在東南亞可是他也是我們未來半導體業的主要的一些人才人才嘛 都客家的人未來會支撐沒有錯 因為三班制真的有一些業班還需要真的這個比較刻苦耐勞每一些國家他們的民族性不同嘛你可能沒有辦法期待歐美那麼國家可以承擔半導體這麼辛苦的工作但是東南亞的學生就可以啊"},{"start":15330.034,"end":15347.767,"text":"所以這些人未來又是我們整個半導體要持續發展很關鍵的人員所以我才是說我們應該要想辦法當然這個不只外交部的工作教育部 經濟部都是應該台灣在半導體業我們未來就是應該在人才的方面讓他可以集中"},{"start":15348.047,"end":15375.904,"text":"我跟委員講我們在菲律賓台北經濟總監有一個就是半導體人才的菁英計畫就是其實未來這個供應鏈因為台灣有涉及到我們的土地水電人力也是相對會受到限制所以我們準備要跟菲律賓建構一個半導體供應鏈就是從人才計畫開始我們會來加強推動也跟委員我們再報告一下您幫我們再來指導一下好 謝謝部長感謝"},{"start":15380.083,"end":15380.824,"text":"好 謝謝今天已登記諮詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有徐富奎委員"},{"start":15394.349,"end":15422.656,"text":"提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有約定期限者從其鎖定另外因為今天CPTPP的成員國在澳洲的墨爾本開會也會決定哪些申請國可以成立加入工作小組那如果沒有台灣的話我們請外交部一定要積極的考量"},{"start":15424.116,"end":15427.818,"text":"如何繼續推案國家優勢的輸出以及各項國際合作那也是我們外交可能要突破的一個重點之一要如何轉化為台灣跟其他貿易夥伴共同制定相關的規則避免台灣在國際經貿協定上面被邊緣化就這個議題我們請外交部提供一些我們提供書面資料讓委員會去深入的了解那今天"},{"start":15455.015,"end":15456.618,"text":"會議到此結束 謝謝大家 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謝謝"},{"start":1799.332,"end":1799.392,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":1823.359,"end":1833.424,"text":"本席提出了有三項法案的修正分別是法院組織法的第106條法院組織法的第83條以及憲法訴訟法第18條的條文修正草案"},{"start":1840.666,"end":1866.226,"text":"那麼本席之所以會提出這三個重要的條文修正案主要是有鑒於就是公權力應該要受到監督以及公平而我想這不只是針對行政權同樣的也要針對司法權而這正是現代法治國家的重要的核心原則那麼司法權作為國家權力重要一環它的運作以及過程應該要受"},{"start":1868.208,"end":1897.355,"text":"到最大程度向公眾開放那麼以接受全民的檢驗資訊越是公開透明那麼公眾監督就越能到位而司法的公信力才能夠真正提升那根據近年來多項的民意調查顯示其實國人對於司法體系的信任度長期都處於低點到現在好像還沒有看過司法的信任度有超過50%的那麼這種信任危機我想不僅是源於個案的爭議"},{"start":1898.055,"end":1921.054,"text":"更在於司法運作缺乏足夠的透明度以及可解釋性那麼讓人民對於法院以及檢察官的決策過程感到隔閡以及不確定那司法是無法獲得人民的信任將動搖國家根本阻礙社會的和諧所以呢今天排審這三部法案的修正草案最主要的核心的精神"},{"start":1921.474,"end":1942.202,"text":"正視司法資訊公開這不僅是我個人長期高度關注的議題更是捍衛人民知的權利那麼這是民主憲政的基石在法治面上面必須完成的佈局所以本席這次提出的三條法律修正案目標就是要從三個關鍵層面"},{"start":1943.542,"end":1971.899,"text":"全面的強化司法資訊的公開性與可追溯性憲法審查的公開論辯偵查程序的及時監督以及重刑案件的歷史追溯那麼透過這個系統性的修法我們將會有效的將可以有效的保障人民的權利並且為提升國民對司法體系的公信力與信賴奠定堅實的基礎那麼首先本席提出要修改憲法訴訟法的第18條的規定"},{"start":1973.44,"end":1993.789,"text":"司法院 憲法法庭現在所做成的憲法判決其實是對於國家的信任秩序以及人民權利義務影響深遠由於目前的實務上對於憲法法庭的公開的書類範圍仍然有限制那導致當事人以及各界所提交的各種重要的書類包括像申請書 意見書 答辯書等等"},{"start":1994.449,"end":2013.397,"text":"可能都因為行政規定或是篇幅的限制而不予公開或是部分的公開還記得在去年國會改革事件案的時候憲法法庭當時就限制了專家意見書只能夠公開20頁那明明專家可能寫了30頁但是最後只公開了前20頁"},{"start":2014.557,"end":2036.719,"text":"那麼在這樣的一個情況之下當然當時也引起了社會輿論嘩然那麼我想在沒有技術困難的情況之下這種限制已經是嚴重侵害了人民的知的權利所以本次修正草案是強調憲法法庭應該要在受理案件之後就要在官方網站公開各類的書狀全文"},{"start":2037.579,"end":2064.392,"text":"這項修正案最重要目的就是希望能夠將各種重要的論辯依據能夠透明化供全民檢驗好 那麼第二個部分呢是本席提出了法院組織法第83條的修正那檢查機關它作為廣義的司法機關代表國家行使公權力行使偵查與追溯的權利對人民的權益影響很大但是現行制度呢卻僅規定在第一審裁判公開之後呢才可以公開"},{"start":2066.053,"end":2084.99,"text":"在第一审裁判书公开后才可以公开起诉书这使得公众监督长期存在的时间的落差所以本次的修正草案的重点就在于说侦查终结后已经没有侦查不公开的限制我们明确增订高等检察署以下的各级检察署"},{"start":2085.47,"end":2107.931,"text":"应该要在案件的侦查终结后要及时公开起诉书申请检疫的判决处刑书不起诉处分书以及还起诉处分书等等这些所有关键的检查书类提早公开这些书类直接是有助于社会公众可以及时的去检视检察官是否忠实履行他的法定以及客观的义务"},{"start":2109.349,"end":2129.495,"text":"那么第三点本席提出的是法院组织法第106条我们知道从大法官113年宪判制第8号判决要求死刑一致决之后法官平易的内容的严谨性以及可追溯性变成是更为重要更为关键然而在现行的规定里面法院的平易部"},{"start":2130.015,"end":2148.159,"text":"只需要保存10年就可能會被銷毀那麼如果評議部的蔑視將導致我們無法確認死刑案件的審判過程譬如說是不是一致決等等這可能會嚴重損害司法透明性以及審判程序的正當性因此本次本席提出的修正草案"},{"start":2148.479,"end":2165.605,"text":"就是徵定經處死刑的評議部應該要永久保存那麼總之我想就上面的這個三項的修正案它的核心就是以司法權它上面三項的修正案它涵蓋了司法權最重要的"},{"start":2166.205,"end":2182.42,"text":"這三個最重要的核心的三個面向我們希望透過這些法律制度的努力可以建構一個更為全面更為嚴謹的司法體系那麼讓人民的知的權利可以得到充分的保障好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁委員好 謝謝"},{"start":2199.761,"end":2206.176,"text":"那麼接著請機關代表來報告每位發言時間三分鐘那首先先請司法院的王副秘書長"},{"start":2215.229,"end":2229.102,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安本院奉邀前來貴委員會本人僅代表司法院就本日議題向貴委員會提出口頭報告深感榮幸敬請指教"},{"start":2230.163,"end":2249.03,"text":"有關於法院組織法第106條部分那修法的內容呢是競表贊同但是要考慮機關共同性檔案保存年限基準已經在114年4月16日修正了那將此行評議部的規定呢永久保存因此"},{"start":2249.83,"end":2268.861,"text":"法組法是否還有再修正的必要也見請再酌法院組織法第83條的部分尊重全責機關法務部的意見以及貴院審議之結果關於憲法訴訟法第18條的部分修正草案擴大了公開事項"},{"start":2269.981,"end":2292.141,"text":"但是要考慮憲法法庭網站的書狀內容資訊龐雜 充斥過多和案件無關的內容另外處理公開還有限制公開遮掩的事項它將嚴重厚損大量審判行政資源影響憲法法庭審理運作效能且無異於民眾知的權利 時宜慎酌這個部分建請在於審酌"},{"start":2296.625,"end":2317.256,"text":"關於法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法的部分本院依據貴院修正的法院組織法第九十條第九項之授權針對法庭公佈的適當方式訂定了本辦法那本辦法在預告期間呢各界並無不同意見公佈後亦或朝也"},{"start":2317.816,"end":2338.029,"text":"多所肯定本院考量不論直播或者是延後播出都可以達到便利民眾了解法庭活動的目的但是直播方式不能夠進行後製也無法保障程序參與人要求變聲變相的權利和無法抵觸"},{"start":2340.236,"end":2367.446,"text":"有委員於協商過程中也一再強調提案條文使用的公開播送跟直播不同所以本辦法規定延後播出為公播的適當方式是符合立法目的的考量多數法律專家對於法庭播出提出疑議均未獲解決另外參考外國的經驗例如印度採取法庭直播但是因為直播影像遭到濫用"},{"start":2368.706,"end":2393.213,"text":"剛剛才在今年的九月呢下令暫停所有的刑事案件直播因此本院認為公播制度俯實行上路應先採取最穩健安全的宣示判決後播出的方式待制度運行相當時日後可視實務運作情形滾動式調整公播時程以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位"},{"start":2396.762,"end":2398.809,"text":"好 謝謝王副秘書長那接下來我們請訪問部的黃次長"},{"start":2406.998,"end":2429.185,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會就法院組織法等修正草案請代表本部列席報告並備諮詢報告如下第一有關處史刑評議部因永久保存的部分剛剛如同司法院代表所報告的因為機關共通性檔案保存基準已經有新增項目"},{"start":2430.105,"end":2455.187,"text":"關於這個判決死刑這評議部應永久保存所以就這個是否有修正是必要本部尊重司法院及貴院的審查結果第二有關於這一個高等檢察署以下各檢察分署及檢察署要在偵查終結後公開起訴書及申請檢辦決處刑書不起訴處分書及緩起訴處分部分本部認為"},{"start":2456.668,"end":2478.258,"text":"這不宜修正仍以維持現行規定為宜理由如下第一第一審公開判決起訴書已經足以發揮監督檢察官的功能並且兼顧無罪推定及當審權益的維護第二如果將書類公開的時間點提早至偵查終結前恐怕跟無罪推定的原則有違第三點"},{"start":2479.518,"end":2499.86,"text":"偵查終結就公開書類可能會妨害後續偵查案件的偵查第四點如果把書類公開的範圍擴及到不起訴處分書還起訴處分書應該考慮到這是不是會跟偵查不公開原則有違而且會考慮到影響整個犯罪的起訴跟追訴"},{"start":2500.801,"end":2528.395,"text":"第五 如果把書類公開範圍擴及到不起訴處分書還不起訴處分書應該要考量對訴訟參與者的名義隱私安全所產生的影響另外有關於這個訴訟法有關修正提交於憲法法庭的各類書類都應該要公佈所有的書類及全文的部分此部分涉及到司法院的審判實務職權本部尊重司法院及大院的審議結果"},{"start":2529.555,"end":2538.541,"text":"至於有關於這個法庭錄影公開播送的辦法這部分也是涉及到司法運營業務本部競表尊重以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在就開始進行詢答那首先先請第一位登記發言的黃國昌委員發言喔 抱歉抱歉我剛剛還少了一段"},{"start":2559.697,"end":2585.014,"text":"抱歉因為我剛剛機關代表報告之後我還要再詢問就是說請問現場的其他機關還有沒有要做口頭報告或是普通說明的因為有些機關已經有提出書面報告了如果沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告完畢之後就相當把相關書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2589.758,"end":2604.754,"text":"那麼提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢了我們現在就開始進行詢答那麼首先先請第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝對還有就是上午10點30分截止發言登記好請好謝謝主席麻煩有請司法院副秘書長"},{"start":2618.198,"end":2625.687,"text":"委員早副秘書長早延續上一次承諾質詢的主題你們答應我"},{"start":2626.707,"end":2652.705,"text":"要把你們比對的結果要提供給我因為之前說尊照辦理黃委員真的不好意思先請稍待一下因為剛剛又是我的疏失那麼我還要再宣告今天委員的詢答時間本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長然後上午10點30分截止發言登記那就請黃委員先開始 謝謝"},{"start":2654.306,"end":2657.558,"text":"沒有關係延續上一次質詢的主題因為"},{"start":2658.959,"end":2687.626,"text":"之前問你115年施政計畫綱要跟114年施政計畫綱要我要你們回去比對你跟我說遵照辦理上一次講了一堆理由為什麼會大量的重複但是就拒絕提供比對的結果我們上次詢答的時候最後浪費了非常多的時間在這件事情上我今天不想再浪費任何時間了我只有一個問題比對的結果願不願意提供"},{"start":2690.543,"end":2715.442,"text":"那個報委員在那個委員10月22號質詢就是本院的那個施政計畫兩個年度有沒有高度重疊之後呢那本院也以那個教育部的那個成功文章相似度比對系統來協助那個檢驗文本那那個檢驗的結果呢因為就是這個系統他是供那個學術使用的他是在偵測論文有沒有抄襲他事實上在講的是一個"},{"start":2716.082,"end":2740.152,"text":"對不起啊 我只問你比對的結果有沒有要提供我不要浪費時間在這件事上比對結果已經在那個十月底的之後已經有提供給委員了你講的是我貼出來這個嗎是的就講一堆官話就是沒有要比對沒有關係啦 你的態度很清楚了我也知道今天我沒有要在這件事情上面浪費時間啊因為你們不提供也沒有關係啊我就自己做比對嘛"},{"start":2742.11,"end":2767.517,"text":"一模一樣的東西這麼簡單不用複雜的電腦軟體啦左邊右邊兩個相對一模一樣的字句用螢光筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標長得一模一樣嘛這不是封面啦這是內文啦這是內文啦請你們提供答應要提供不提供沒有關係"},{"start":2769.386,"end":2796.4,"text":"司法院院會之前我說院會的紀錄願不願意公開你們跟我說願意公開最後也公開了我覺得非常好為什麼我覺得非常好司法透明嘛公眾才可以檢驗嘛那真的公布了以後大家也才知道司法院的會議沒有按照司法院會議規則每個月開一次嘛"},{"start":2797.406,"end":2825.381,"text":"原則上每個月開一次必要時可以加開過去三年每一年開四次大概一季開一次那每一次會怎麼開的我其實非常有興趣所以我就進去看了2024年施政計畫綱要司法院的會議會議的時間八分鐘八分鐘那天只有一個會議主題就是討論2024年司法院施政計畫綱要"},{"start":2827.404,"end":2844.191,"text":"可能是會前的準備非常的充分大家藉由歷次的會前會 個廳式的討論已經充分的溝通交換意見了所以那一次8月16號禮拜三上午10點司法院201次會議紀錄裡面開會的時間到10點8分就散會了"},{"start":2850.867,"end":2878.017,"text":"2024年的施政計畫綱要是透過8分鐘的時間討論通過的那我就很好奇啊好奇這個施政計畫綱要因為我如果比對2024 2025兩者之間相似的比例啊高達九成以上那我又再看了一下你們2023跟2024就再往前一年嘛施政計畫的綱要我看到了一模一樣又跟前面一樣繼續抄"},{"start":2880.744,"end":2893.121,"text":"繼續抄這個比對一點都不複雜既然是用抄的跟我上次質詢的時候所提出來的事情一樣沒有什麼好懷疑的因為是用抄的用8分鐘的時間討論剛剛好而已今天"},{"start":2897.267,"end":2915.655,"text":"我們的主席針對有關於憲法訴訟法相關的條文提出修正討論條文的時候我們再來討論我第一個問題是憲法訴訟法第17條說憲法法院應將申請書送達相對人請問這條規範的意思是什麼這個我請那個廳長回覆好嗎好 可以來請廳長這條規範的意思是什麼"},{"start":2925.943,"end":2951.192,"text":"有關於那個憲法訴訟法第17條的規範議旨是在給予相對人就是知悉申請人所提出的意見那為什麼要用宋達的因為這個 我知道那個您廳長嘛是對 我知道廳長應該程序法學訴訟法學造詞都非常的深"},{"start":2952.569,"end":2979.002,"text":"第一個是我們在討論有關於程序基本權的時候程序基本權收受送法的權利就是要讓他知道裡面的內容這個是程序基本權所當然當事者權的核心當事者權的核心跟在場見證權還有見證閱覽權共同成為當事者權核心當中的核心這個收受送法的權利憲法法院"},{"start":2980.27,"end":2995.655,"text":"有按照這個法條在進行嗎依照該規定的話憲法法庭是應將申請訴訟如果沒有送達呢如果沒有送達會產生什麼樣法律的效果"},{"start":2999.253,"end":3024.79,"text":"這個部分的那個法律效果在個案上面在個案上面或許會需要是個案的情形而定就很簡單嘛今天有人申請嘛申請人的申請書應該送給相對人嘛相對人說我沒有收到啊到開庭的時候開延遲辯論的時候相對人還是說我沒有收到啊那這個時候憲法法庭該怎麼辦"},{"start":3026.803,"end":3052.391,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個部分的效果那會大法官這個部分會依照他們審議的職權去判斷對不起 這個是空話啦這個真的是空話我們訴訟法上面如果有規範程序上面所應該進行的程序那程序如果沒有遵行的時候那應該要怎麼做這個是我的問題"},{"start":3054.315,"end":3074.898,"text":"在訴訟法上面一定有訴訟法的效果啊如果沒有訴訟法的效果憲法訴訟法17條不就成為拒文了嗎請問訴訟法的效果是什麼個案判斷如果委員在這個地方提到訴訟法上面的部分的話那我們現在在討論的不就是憲法訴訟法嗎"},{"start":3076.326,"end":3102.233,"text":"是 在訴訟法上面如果說相對人已經可能可以知悉就是申請人的申請意旨的話那或許在這個部分可以作為補正但是來來來 17條 應將申請訴訟達給相對人這是法院在踐行給相對人程序基本權的保障跟落實的時候的核心條文"},{"start":3103.965,"end":3129.275,"text":"收受申請文書的送達 我才知道他申請了什麼我才知道我防禦的對象 防禦的範圍不管在刑事訴訟 民事訴訟 憲法訴訟 道理一模一樣當然為什麼今天特別提這件事去年舉行憲法訴訟的時候我是代表立法院的相對人"},{"start":3130.441,"end":3157.666,"text":"我跟審判長表示我根本沒有收到申請書審判長說你可以上網去看可以上網去看上網上面有公告公告你可以自己去看那我的問題來了我學訴訟法學這麼久原來我們對當事人收受送達通知的權利變成的是自己要上網去看我完全聽不懂"},{"start":3159.876,"end":3186.855,"text":"這個是我們憲法法庭所表現出來在落實程序基本權的態度嗎委員該部分在該案中審判長已經有所指示是那書記聽這邊作為一個補助單位我們不宜再做多對呀但是他的指示就是一個最錯誤的示範他的指示就是一個最錯誤的示範一個要捍衛憲法價值的憲法法庭"},{"start":3189.547,"end":3213.869,"text":"連憲法訴訟法都不遵守這就是我提出質疑的地方為什麼這件事情跟翁委員今天所提出來修正的草案有關係因為他要我上網去看嘛我的確有上網去看啊但上網去看的時候沒有復建沒有復建 完全沒有復建"},{"start":3215.253,"end":3237.827,"text":"而重點中的重點是什麼申請人申請的標的也就是憲法訴訟的訴訟標的在申請書裡面根本沒載明在申請書裡面他說這次訴訟的標的請看附件然後附件又沒有上網作為一個相對人"},{"start":3240.506,"end":3262.196,"text":"不要說一般法院開庭一般法院開庭去開庭以前訴訟標的是什麼都還沒有特定就已經夠誇張了更何況是憲法訴訟憲法法庭先違反他應該要送達的規定自己踐踏憲法上面所應該要保障的程序基本權"},{"start":3264.003,"end":3286.889,"text":"說你可以自己上網去看那上網去看訴訟標的特定在申請書裡面也沒有寫完全規定在附件當中我完全不知道原來我國的憲法法庭進行的是如此的鬆散對於所謂程序基本權的保障跟尊重是如此的落後讓人非常的遺憾"},{"start":3289.249,"end":3317.008,"text":"實際間的關係剩下包括今天法庭直播的部分為什麼台灣民眾黨團要求退回我也可以先預告我們還有配套修正的法案在接下來有關於法院組織法裡面司法院的規則制定權司法院的規則制定權回到像聯邦最高法院一樣Rule Enabling Act"},{"start":3318.37,"end":3344.369,"text":"國會不應該只有退回的權利我們下一次直接討論條文的時候再來申請好 謝謝黃委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言好 謝謝主席那有請司法院副秘書長"},{"start":3349.592,"end":3373.138,"text":"副秘書長剛剛有人要跟你深究關於法庭直播法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法那他現在走掉了我們就來深究我們來看一下荒謬的修法可惡的修法沒有邏輯的修法然後結果司法院變成好人好事代表幫他們做這個很棒的實施辦法挽救了非常多的危機我們來看一下上一次呢"},{"start":3379.042,"end":3381.369,"text":"我的投影片 沒關係字都不見了沒關係我直接講給你聽"},{"start":3384.035,"end":3412.373,"text":"當時在這個法庭直播的時候吳宗憲召委召開了一個公聽會在公聽會上有非常多專家學者提出三大重點沒關係我直接講給你聽第一個大家擔心法院變成秀場就如同剛剛有很愛作秀的委員第二個有人擔心影響司法的審判影響法官還有影響國民法官的心證還有很擔心如果現場的直播所有的法庭陳述會變成全民公審還有有非常多學者專家擔心"},{"start":3413.794,"end":3442.265,"text":"濫用處理機制也就是說現場直播的東西會不會被惡意的剪接惡意的操控輿論甚至造就地下賭盤製造輿論風向而且沒有辦法確認訴訟參與者的個資會在什麼時候在什麼地點會用什麼方法被不當的揭露而法院淪為秀場更是荒謬更很有可能變成被告或者是律師的步道大會甚至檢察官跟法官會想要透過一些案件確認自己的歷史定位"},{"start":3442.785,"end":3463.087,"text":"而且呢如果在法院的庭上可能原本的簡便雙方訴諸對象會從法官變成全國人民這些所有荒謬修法的專家學者給予的理由呢很感謝你們你們在你們的公開播送實施辦法裡面呢做了非常多的調整跟修正我們來往下看"},{"start":3464.71,"end":3479.67,"text":"之前還有檢察官協會提出質疑他們說民眾黨提出來的草案內容文藝不清例如說法庭直播定義不明公開播送的範圍跟定義也不明雖然提升司法透明度是國人的共識"},{"start":3480.791,"end":3500.106,"text":"可是當時他們指出不管是國民黨或是民眾黨的草案內容都有非常多亟待商榷之處也就是說大家都在意公平正義大家在意社會秩序大家都更在意當事人權益也在意司法透明但是修法不是這樣亂修不是這樣以為自己修的都是對的"},{"start":3501.247,"end":3518.607,"text":"所以我要說當時在禁覆二讀之際就有非常多的民間團體站出來呼籲除了不在委員會實質討論之外禁覆二讀程序也非常荒謬甚至到了黨團協商的時候我們看到當時的國民黨副書記長而且是首席的副書記長羅志強在協商的時候也說"},{"start":3521.03,"end":3546.5,"text":"大家可以把這部法案當作提振司法公信力的契機而他自己也解釋了可能是當時被罵太兇他們自己知道轉彎他們就說公開播送有兩種方法第一種叫做直播第二種叫做延遲直播希望大家不要把人民視為蒙古好像看到法庭運作現況就會造成審判不公羅志強說他要為台灣人民報區"},{"start":3547.961,"end":3574.528,"text":"我才要為台灣人民報區荒謬的修法現在司法院好不容易弄出一個版本來處理所有剛剛學者專家跟人民的疑慮結果還有委員嗆聲說他不滿意你們的版本他要代替你們操作一個更好的版本我實在是難以想像我們接下來立法院會看到什麼公開實施辦法是由國民黨跟民眾黨團公開訂定的非常非常的荒謬"},{"start":3577.15,"end":3605.691,"text":"我沒有想到他敢跟你講這個事情我覺得他都不願意面對自己的困境好剛剛是民眾黨的總召他所說的我們來看一下當時民眾黨的立法說明裡面他們怎麼說他們說至於所謂的適當方法要看該案件實際需求而定不限於將錄音錄影的內容即時公開播送也可以選擇延遲公開播送"},{"start":3606.826,"end":3627.675,"text":"我不確定國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員是不是忘記自己說過的話了明明說過公開播送的方法有兩種羅志強說了民眾黨在自己的立法說明也說了可以延遲公開播送而這一切都是他們自己曾經說過的話他們可能已經忘記我們再次提醒他們所以我要再度感謝司法院提出這個"},{"start":3628.835,"end":3655.891,"text":"法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法裡面做了非常多的調整來協助挽救他們修法的荒謬我來跟大家報告包含第三條提到錄影的時候要單一鏡頭定向定焦拍攝不得特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官我覺得這個非常重要到了第四條我們就說可以用適當的方法實施公開播送好中間呢我們再看一下大家擔心的還有什麼到了第七條"},{"start":3658.187,"end":3676.3,"text":"當法院審理涉及重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件的時候要審酌有沒有妨害國家安全公共秩序 善良風俗或者對程序參與人以及他人的生命 身體 隱私 營業秘密或是其他權益造成損害的疑慮的時候"},{"start":3677.321,"end":3704.235,"text":"而且不會妨礙審判程序的公平性的這些我們就可以依照這些來去公開播送謝謝你們排除了所有大家會擔心的事情可是回到當事人本身他可不可以主張我的權益我要自己保護所以他對於相關錄音錄影公開播送的裁定得為抗告所以我們也確保了當事人的權益再來你們還提了一個非常重要的事情"},{"start":3705.055,"end":3725.677,"text":"如果有當事者或者是訴訟的程序參與者提出說請幫我變身變相或者是讓我的樣子不要被別人第一時間看出來才去做公開播送這個應該也是經過非常多討論對不對不管是變身變相或者是去識別化不要讓人家第一臉就認出是我到第11條"},{"start":3727.279,"end":3752.47,"text":"你們還說當法院裁定准許公開播送之後如果認為有不得或不宜公開播送的情形法院可以依照職權裁定不宜公開播送所以一樣留一個退路給法院這邊還有相關的言辭辯論錄音錄影要在案件裁判宣示或公告後播出相關的時間點你們也寫得非常非常清楚了最後一個最重要"},{"start":3753.15,"end":3762.346,"text":"第13條 依照本法所為的公開播送要在司法院指定的網站或平台為之好 所以你們開始準備這個平台或網站了嗎開始準備了"},{"start":3765.196,"end":3783.621,"text":"不好意思我講這麼多都沒有跟你講話因為我要說的是非常荒謬的修法國民黨跟民眾黨不願意承認專家學者提出質疑那現在司法院幫忙捕破網提出這個好的公開播送實施辦法確保人權確保所有的疑慮不要發生但很荒謬很可惜的是繼續聽到民眾黨的委員繼續大聲的怒吼說這個版本"},{"start":3788.482,"end":3815.441,"text":"他們不滿意他們不喜歡他們想要把手伸進司法院在公開播送實施辦法我不知道之後我們會看到什麼樣的播送辦法我要問的是所有剛剛我所說的事情侵害人權的部分判決後公開播送用適當的方法你們花了多少時間討論然後最後討論出這樣的結果可不可以最後讓複密署長來說一下好 那個第一個謝謝委員幫那個司法院所提的這個辦法做了一個非常完整的一個說明"},{"start":3816.261,"end":3842.714,"text":"那再來就是說委員所垂詢的這個部分呢因為當時就是這個法律在立法院通過之後呢只有三個月的上路期那所以那個時間真的非常短相較於其他的重要政策通過之後的那個準備期那所以我們非常那個密集的就是一通過之後呢就是我們司法院的一級主管就是由我召集我們就把所有相關的這一些"},{"start":3843.314,"end":3862.139,"text":"可能的就是不管是在技術面或者是說在怎麼個可以讓他那個一個減低最低衝擊就是可以確保這些當事人的那個權利跟審判的這個公正性方面朝這個方向去做了一個修法然後之後就是這個"},{"start":3864.786,"end":3888.369,"text":"主責的私情廳就依我們所討論的這一些方向擬了一個草案然後之後分別在8月26跟9月5號的時候去會司法院內的個廳還有相關的這些法院像最高法院 最高刑或者是懲戒法院讓他們表示意見他們也非常周延的回饋了我們很多豐富的資料"},{"start":3889.69,"end":3918.391,"text":"那我們就是在做了一個修正之後呢提出了一個版本在9月24號預告那預告各界沒有意見我們內部又再做了一次討論之後才那個訂稿那我稍微花一點時間補充就是說因為有那個委員關心說為什麼我們沒有提出那個院會那我想說明的是因為依那個司法院會司法院的那個會議規則第四條就是議決事項它並沒有包括就是這個行政命令"},{"start":3919.211,"end":3935.25,"text":"這個是不經過院會的那司法院的這樣子的一個規定呢它也不是獨特的它事實上像行政院跟監察院他們也是採取一樣的那個規定那最後我要強調的是就是說我覺得立法權跟那個司法權呢"},{"start":3936.011,"end":3963.266,"text":"我覺得是彼此那個尊重然後就是在憲政底下我們這個辦法呢它絕對是依照母法的那個授權規定那個底下就是來做一個規定雖然司法院當時在政策面我們是才反對那但是立法院一通過之後呢我們絕對是尊重那但是前提就是最終判決跟司法行政呢司法院要付最終的結果所以我們是為了一個最妥適的結果所做的這樣一個辦法以上"},{"start":3963.826,"end":3984.586,"text":"好 謝謝副秘書長的說明我時間到了但是我想我就用一句話做結論這一屆立法院一直以來都是藍白在製造問題而民進黨團跟所有的行政機關都在努力解決問題如同剛剛副秘書長您所說的兩院應該要互相尊重但很可惜的是有的立法委員以為自己很大"},{"start":3985.899,"end":4007.949,"text":"而且比司法院更大所以他認為你們的行政命令在母法授權可以的允許的情況下他們還是要動手改相關實施辦法我不確定之後這樣的程序主席您要怎麼處理不過我希望我還是要再度呼籲所有的藍白立法委員對於這個行政命令如果有任何的意見或者是你們認為這個版本不是你們原本所要的那我認為應該"},{"start":4009.67,"end":4029.343,"text":"當時在修法的時候就應該要好好討論我們絕對贊成陽光照進法庭我們絕對贊成更多司法透明但絕對不是用荒謬粗糙而且沒有邏輯的修法現在甚至還要伸手干預行政命令的方法來維護所謂的司法透明以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 接下來我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":4051.963,"end":4056.125,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請這個副秘書長好 請王副秘書長委員長好 副秘書長我先針對這個翁委員提的這個法院組織法第83條裡頭關於這一個不起訴處分書反起訴處分書的這一些公開這些事情不知道你們有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":4080.475,"end":4102.175,"text":"委員因為這個部分是屬於法務部的權責所以我們司法院來回覆嗎還是請法務部我們先尊重他們 法務部好 謝謝委員關於這個當然本部在報告裡面講到就是本部認為現行的法院組織法在第一審裁判後我們起訴處才跟著公開現行法是不需要修正的"},{"start":4102.523,"end":4127.026,"text":"那我是說這個不起訴處分書不起訴處分書我們也認為就是說不起訴處分書他跟環境處處分書即使在偵查終結的時候他有可能經過申請在意再發回又回復到原來的偵查狀態所以這個時候如果偵查終結就公開的話有可能會影響到後續檢察官的偵查或者是偵查不公開那如果不起訴處分書對方也沒有在意啊"},{"start":4128.51,"end":4157.498,"text":"那還是不能公開對 那因為不起訴處分基本上它是它會裡面有很多個人的隱私在裡面因為它畢竟不是一個有罪的沒有經過檢察官認定起訴的事實那更何況事實上法院在實務上非常多人利用訴訟程序進行相關的濫訴濫告如果所有的處分書都公開的話裡面有非常多足以辨識個人資料的個資可能會出現所以本部是這方面有些疑慮所以這是第一點"},{"start":4158.058,"end":4184.796,"text":"第二點就是說如果全面性的公開我們現在起訴書公開的話我們一年起訴書公開的話將近有27萬件如果未來含不起訴書公開的話我們一年終結的案件將近七八十萬件那未來這個會引起我們檢察機關行政上會非常大的一個負擔好 了解 謝謝你那接下來關於這個所謂的法庭直播我再請這個複密跟我們的庭長"},{"start":4187.943,"end":4211.88,"text":"因為我看到你們有提了一個相關的辦法那最主要是希望這個公開播放這件事情未必要即時的直播那裡面裡頭也提到因為它可能會涉及到譬如說這個相關的答辯過程中可能搞不好涉及到國家的安全相關的事情"},{"start":4213.011,"end":4236.766,"text":"直播出去就不會有了或者是說裡面有一些涉及這個相關的隱私說出去也不會有了那這個部分哪一些事情是你們現在認為如果直播出去就慘了就這個事情可能跟本案有關對不對然後也許這個相關的人就講了"},{"start":4237.796,"end":4245.408,"text":"那講了之後法官來不及阻止可是全部都出去了有哪些事情是你們現在最擔心的"},{"start":4247.816,"end":4274.975,"text":"其實委員剛才就已經列舉了非常豐富的資訊了那另外我覺得就是還有一個場景就是說因為現在不只是台灣全世界那個自媒體都非常發達那我們的審理我們並不是一天就會結束的我們是會延續一段期間那如果說你一邊播一邊這些自媒體他們就開始做各種評論了或者是把這些證人的這些講的話就全部交叉比對就是去做什麼什麼的話那這一個"},{"start":4277.256,"end":4298.488,"text":"或者是這個資訊還經過剪接他事實上不是真實資訊因為事實上只有少數人會進到法庭嘛那所以就是說就是這樣子的一個互動過程呢他事實上對於審判的這個干擾某程度就是某程度事實上是會衝擊到所以有可能就是"},{"start":4299.741,"end":4307.113,"text":"就直接互動然後就直接公審在外面就直接公審這個法官你問那個什麼問題"},{"start":4309.756,"end":4332.442,"text":"你這個檢察官問那個什麼問題你這個辯護律師講那個什麼話你這個證人亂講話 對不對這些都有可能在外面馬上進行評論嘛是 那可能第一個證人來了之後下一庭的第二個證人也許嚇得根本就不敢進到法院來然後呢 這個評論完之後搞不好就直接誤導了大家是的然後呢 可能法院都會被包圍是"},{"start":4334.068,"end":4362.566,"text":"就說那花刮 問那什麼問題問這個會不會痛 把它圍起來就這些事情如果是即時的播出那這個可能會有後續的這些疑慮那現在你剛也提到有些國家過去曾經也做過直播後來在今年的九月這個事情就沒有即時的來播那他們還是用延後播出嗎"},{"start":4363.955,"end":4389.034,"text":"我們在就是我們今天報告中提出的那個印度為什麼提印度因為那是一個最新的資訊那之前有委員也有把那個當作例子說這些國家都已經播了那我們剛好就是九月才剛剛的資訊他們就是因為產生了太多以前我們就是一些學者專家所想像的就是從法理上去想像說可能會有什麼問題那在印度就都發生了所以說他們在九月的時候就下令"},{"start":4389.815,"end":4414.3,"text":"刑事案件就全部暫停 就是暫停實施直播那現在延後播因為你們在第十條你們提出來的第十條在延後播的時候你們是說法院得依職權或程序參與人的請求對特定的範圍或內容的錄音錄影予以遮蔽聲音影像"},{"start":4416.171,"end":4434.593,"text":"這個部分是當事人的請求那法院可不可以自己處理我當事人都沒意見就是說這個播出去沒意見可是法官審理或法院的這個過程他覺得說這個雖然當事人沒意見可是我們還是覺得這個不可以出去"},{"start":4436.044,"end":4447.022,"text":"因为可能双方当事人都觉得这个事情也没有很严重那法院可不可以自己认为这个事情很严重就把那一段遮蔽或者直接把它剪掉"},{"start":4449.207,"end":4467.272,"text":"謝謝委員那個垂詢其實這個規定它是在母法中就是在那個法院組織法90條的那個第三項就已經有那個規定那就是當時的規定就已經說是依申請或是依職權所以我們在那個授權的這個規定第10條裡面"},{"start":4469.292,"end":4498.416,"text":"也有很清楚的很明白的就是說法院可以依職權除了一當事除了依程序參與人請求之外法院是可以依職權就是為了這個公義就是把它那個變成對 那就變成你們的權力會變很大是 應該說法官是會合理的合義務性的採訪對 那這個就會出現爭議就是說法官認為這一段不應該"},{"start":4499.659,"end":4519.168,"text":"出去那這個當事人覺得說這一段怎麼被剪掉了這一段才是關鍵會不會有這種狀況那個保護委員這個他所規定的是變聲變音那我說影像有一段就不見了遮蔽影像"},{"start":4523.188,"end":4545.854,"text":"譬如說我舉一個例子譬如說這個當事人就講了一個人事實地務那就涉及了國家安全那當事人就講出去他不以為意然後兩兆都不以為意但是這個法官認為這個事情不能講那法院會不會說那我接下來的延後的撥出我就把那一段剪掉"},{"start":4546.994,"end":4563.103,"text":"或者是說好 另外一個狀況是說你們也認為無所謂結果你們也沒剪 就出去了那出去之後 譬如說國安的單位說這一段怎麼可以播出來那到時候誰來決定哪一段可以被剪掉 哪一段不能被剪掉這個怎麼處理我讓廳長回覆"},{"start":4569.228,"end":4591.748,"text":"謝謝委員 其實委員講到真的是一個問題但是因為公佈已經是立法院這個貴院通過的條文所以我們只能盡可能的在辦法裡頭做一些規範來降低但是一旦法官做了公益的決定把某一部分做遮蔽或者是甚至我們也有規定說如果遮的太多已經都不完整了"},{"start":4592.208,"end":4609.596,"text":"那大家看到不完整的反而誤解了整個程序審判的內容這時候可能乾脆這個就不要播出了那這些東西而後反對的人一定會有不同聲音就會產生爭議這一塊我沒有意見我另外一塊是說如果這一段就根本不能播"},{"start":4611.058,"end":4627.573,"text":"就是不能講 不能播那大家都不以為意就真的播出去了接下來會有什麼樣的機制說這個事情以後不准再撿這種東西出來給大家看第一個就是說如果真的播出去了當然我們要有立即的一個補救措施譬如說下架"},{"start":4628.374,"end":4648.548,"text":"但是如果已經造成損害的時候但是要有一個機制嘛就是說要有一個機制說這種情形不要有一個平易的機制說這種情形以後不可以再然後我們這個委員會就做成一個決定說以後這種的不能再播了就是說這個機制如果沒有減多了 減少了"},{"start":4649.537,"end":4671.765,"text":"都會出事嘛就是說這個法官也覺得無所謂法院也覺得無所謂可是外界假設國安單位說這個不行講啦你們怎麼都覺得這個可以播出去假設這樣就是不可以播出去可是你們都不以為意那你們也都把它播出去了嘛那後面應該要建立一個這種相關的機制"},{"start":4672.785,"end":4688.046,"text":"提醒或者是規定就是說他可能會被送一個評議說這種袋子以後涉及到這一塊的記得這一塊要剪掉否則會直接出去這個我是接受後續如果有這樣的討論你們要把這一塊"},{"start":4690.851,"end":4710.484,"text":"多檢的大家會有意見 多檢的就不完整你就過去不要公開就好了 每次你來我們就看不到了那第二種是大家都覺得這個可以出去可是會有一些單位就覺得這個不可以出去啊這個出去會出事啊那這件事情是不是要有另外一個機制"},{"start":4711.468,"end":4735.445,"text":"就是要去我們我們這個以前就NCC會有那個新聞的評議的機制嘛這一段可以不可以可是法院後續是也要這樣的一個機制把可以跟不可以啊用比較這個合理的方式然後呢也許做一個規範這樣子這個你們再回去就後續如果有相關的討論的時候把它納進去討論好不好謝謝你們 謝謝"},{"start":4744.687,"end":4746.909,"text":"好 接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們翁昭偉我們先請一下我們法務部次長好 請黃次長"},{"start":4764.895,"end":4785.101,"text":"好 次長好 本席今天要針對未成年性犯罪被告來延長追訴權的這個問題來跟您就教這個有關於兒少保護還有涉嫌涉及重大制度面的這個部分這個未成年性犯罪被害人追訴時效的這個問題"},{"start":4786.721,"end":4810.66,"text":"本席覺得有一些制度面還需要再進一步討論的本席先說明對這個部分的一個看法我覺得是有一點點缺陷我們的刑法第八十條追溯期間的一個制度沒有考量未成年被害人在心智發展保護意識跟自我認知上的一個弱勢"},{"start":4812.642,"end":4831.453,"text":"舉個例子高雄的國小體操的性侵案件有許多被害者追溯期已經過了結果沒有辦法就責然後在前幾年2023年又有知名的藝術家性侵未成年少女的案件同樣也是因為追溯期"},{"start":4833.214,"end":4851.671,"text":"要到了檢方就沒有起訴甚至有很多兒少的被害人到成年以後才發現自己才理解自己被性侵害但是法律卻要求他們在當幼年時就要能夠勇於發聲這個是今天本席要討論的一個主軸"},{"start":4853.373,"end":4873.826,"text":"這讓人家感覺是一種法律上的殘酷把未成年的被害人要求的跟成年人一樣有所謂的性自主認知或有維護能力有社會支持系統的這個能力其實是有點社會的不正義許多性侵害的一個加害者常常都是被害者的一個親屬"},{"start":4874.947,"end":4891.187,"text":"那麼一個孩子如何能夠在追溯期間鼓起勇氣或者是追溯期到了那國家就只能放過這個加害者那這個是在法律上有點不合理那本席就針對法務部目前的一些相關草案有一些看法然後來救教您"},{"start":4892.068,"end":4920.19,"text":"那個法務部的版本是在第80條這邊以不記錄期間作為一個處理那本席看來很像追溯時效的制度上的一個時效停止所列的一個障礙是由那既然刑法的83條已經有時效停止的一個制度那麼本席請教法務部是不是認為應該將未成年人沒有辦法有效行使權利的期間也明顯納入"},{"start":4922.572,"end":4944.589,"text":"這個該法條然後讓這個合法體系一致那麼第二個部分是法務部的版本僅涵蓋了刑法中屬於性侵害犯罪的罪名但是兒童及少年性剝削防治條例中強制性交強制猥褻的犯刑同樣涉及很嚴重的一個性侵害那本席在這邊請教"},{"start":4946.39,"end":4970.153,"text":"這個部分為什麼沒有跟衛福部來會商來一併研議是不是延長追訴時效那麼次長 法務部是不是可以支持把兒少性剝削條例中的性交與猥褻犯罪納入追訴期延長的範圍把罪犯與刑法性侵害本質完全相同"},{"start":4970.874,"end":4985.959,"text":"的東西一起納入那本席認為這個修法可以一步到位那您的看法呢好 謝謝委員的這個質詢關於這個本部當然也贊成這個未成年他被性侵的話他的追訴權要做特別的處理"},{"start":4986.579,"end":4998.993,"text":"在他的渠道上就如同有兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說我們本部所提出的草案就是說他在未成年在未滿20歲之前我們不開始計算他的追溯權換句話說從20年才開始計算我們80條的追溯權時效這當然是第一種方式"},{"start":5004.219,"end":5021.207,"text":"這也是本部目前送到行政院的版本所採取的方式剛剛委員所提到的就用這個追逐權時效停止的觀念可不可以本部也評估過因為停止它是一個非常複雜的在實體法上非常複雜的一個計算的方式它停止之後一段時間還有消滅的問題它會又繼續再接回來計算的問題"},{"start":5026.269,"end":5049.627,"text":"那其實對這個未成年人的保護其實不見得比較周圍所以我們現在在經過政策上評估之後送到行政院行政院基本上我們審訊的條文基本上會從他滿20歲之後之前都不計算從20歲之後才開始計算我們刑法上所有的追訴權其實這也是參照外國的立法力外國有立法力也是這樣子計算的那這個部分你們有跟衛福部討論過嗎有請他們一起針對這個部分來做一些意見的陳述嗎"},{"start":5056.172,"end":5074.264,"text":"在行政院的討論的時候倒是沒有但是這整個修法過程當中我們也有對外公告我們有發布相關新聞稿其實衛福他們應該會知道如果相關建議會回答我們的問題我想在過程當中如果他們能夠參與或許他會比較真正的Pay attention"},{"start":5074.784,"end":5099.105,"text":"那委員你提到的其實是我第二個要回答的問題啦就是說為什麼特別條 可不可以有關特別法或性剝契防制條例裡面要不要做特別的規範為什麼我們刑法只規範我們刑法本身沒有去規範性剝契防制條例的時效的計算這就涉及到衛福部他本身他要在自己的 而主管法規裡面性剝契防制條例裡面去訂他的追訴權時效"},{"start":5100.896,"end":5123.051,"text":"那你們在過程當中其實可以讓他知道你們針對這個主法的一個概念然後他要訂定的時候知道你們這樣一個修法的精神沒問題 跟我們報告 政委 我們在新院審查的時候政委已經也有指示要跟衛福部溝通 衛福部其實他本身也訂掉了要在他自己所主管的法規這個性差異波解條例裡面去訂他的"},{"start":5123.251,"end":5152.508,"text":"但是我是覺得在過程當中你們如果可以在這一段先有一些溝通那彼此會知道你們在法條上的一個解釋概念 限制然後跟可以做的一些空間公務員是知道他們也應允要在他自己的主管法規裡面去訂自己的追溯檢視效但是這就有點這個各行其道啦就是說如果在前面大家可以多一些溝通那可能在訂定的時候不管你是這個母法或者是他們去訂定的行政命令那可以知道這樣一個立法或修法的一個原則"},{"start":5153.488,"end":5170.4,"text":"比較符合這個法本身的一個想法跟精神所以比較少在行政命令上你會覺得說好像母法跟行政 對不起所以相關的這個法規裡面跟我們原有的意旨會有比較大的一個差距這是本席的一個最主要一個想法"},{"start":5170.76,"end":5175.704,"text":"對 應該是不會這樣因為他們已經充分知道而且他也要在自己的法律裡面請你們後續來跟本席談一下你們剛才考量有關於停止跟消滅的這個部分是在這裡面你們是怎麼考量的然後本席講的這樣一個概念我想要聽一下這個相關的一個你們當時的一個考量好 沒問題那最主要因為那個兒少被害人其實他需要一些時間但是現在感覺上有一些期限的一個追趕"},{"start":5199.122,"end":5227.904,"text":"那麼制度最大的責任是不要讓這個被害人在時間或加害人在時間之後在時間後面會躲避責任我們要把真正的兒少權益放在第一位所以本席這邊提出來就是他們其實在當時不見得知道或許是後續如果沒有一些可能性或者被教導他們其實不盡然知道那兒童時期發生的事情可能是對他們本身是有影響的"},{"start":5229.024,"end":5257.524,"text":"那接下來這個部分就請你們後續這邊給我做一個解釋好不好那對於已發生的跟追溯時效尚未完成的這個案件那到底對於應該適用新法或舊法那你們的草案在刑法施行法的第八之一條適用對行為人最有利的原則那本席這邊的理解就算新法是為了保護兒少但是如果舊法對加害人比較有利就用舊法"},{"start":5258.524,"end":5280.332,"text":"這樣子的設計是不是會違反修法的一個目的我們對於兒少受性侵的時候可能不懂那是侵害然後也有因為還未成年不是太成熟的情況下可能會擔心家庭壓力或者是情緒會有一些威脅那要到很久以後才會真正知道他的創傷這個是本席剛剛在80條一直討論的"},{"start":5282.052,"end":5307.411,"text":"那麼這個修法如果新增未成年時間不列入追溯時效的一個制度希望能夠讓被害人真正能夠追溯到加害者但是你們的版本有可能導致以下幾個情況如果案件發生了很多年時效已經進行了一段時間時效尚未完成卻因為對行為人最有利的原則被害人不能適用新法"},{"start":5307.751,"end":5325.667,"text":"那這不就是很多爭取兒少正義的案件依舊被舊法來卡死嗎這是不是有點違背所以本席請教兩個問題第一個法務部為何認為適用舊法而不優先考慮這次時效改革最核心精神的保護弱勢被害人這樣一個考量"},{"start":5326.207,"end":5341.177,"text":"第二個部分是本席認為追溯時效在新法施行尚未完成就應該適用修正後的新法這是最能夠落實你們這次修法的目的也不會出現被害人基本上可以讓被害人勇於發聲但是他發聲了之後結果就法的時效也讓他求助無門這個是本席這邊的兩個部分請你回應一下跟委員報告"},{"start":5353.826,"end":5379.881,"text":"那原來我們公布的草案當然是用行為實法這是法律上一個蠻重要的原則就是說用行為實的法律去適用但是送到刑事政經院之後我們也廣納各界的意見現在我們整個定調的版本就如同剛剛委員所提的我們未來在這個施行法則的過橋條款我們採委員剛剛所建議的完全採用行為就修法後的新法來適用這個追訴權時效"},{"start":5380.822,"end":5402.871,"text":"完全跟委員剛剛報告一模一樣就是未來只要延長了我們也適用新法而不是我們原來所提出來的公告的草案適用行為司法我們是要適用這個新法來處理我們剛剛委員所提的相關的問題所以跟委員剛剛我們已經修正了相關的條文現在修正的這個部分是跟我剛才講的意旨是比較接近的"},{"start":5403.291,"end":5430.118,"text":"一模一樣 就是是用行為時的而且是用新法是用新法本市只要確定在這個實行的這個時間上是同步的對 就是說我們未來我們對這個被害人成年後才計算他的時效的話未來就直接是用新法了不是用舊法不是用那個行為時那個法律所以本市只要確認我這個疑慮你們是不是在修法的過程當中有點有處理了好"},{"start":5432.279,"end":5440.446,"text":"最後一個 本席過去也提到過也就是西門檢查辦公大樓所引發的一些爭議你們現在想要選擇的地址是在西門町的黃金地段"},{"start":5447.872,"end":5468.482,"text":"還有 您知道這件事情吧知道你們說是檢查園區但是我相信你們未來也不可能整體開放隨時開放讓大家在那邊有你們想像的園區跟在地居民想像的一個公共觀光的空間最重要的是你們選擇的地方是以前我們成長記憶當中的國軍"},{"start":5470.663,"end":5492.328,"text":"文藝中心這邊因為我們過去常常在中山堂那邊演出然後國軍藝文館也是我們常常走的這個動線所以在中華路而且緊鄰西門町你們也知道西門町目前的一個空間地景的一個想像跟它的調性但是很重要的是你在國軍文藝中心然後三軍軍官俱樂部福利站之所在"},{"start":5493.248,"end":5505.853,"text":"這個不僅是很多人舊時的記憶也離現在年輕人觀光客很密集的地方很近居民認為這樣的規劃是沒有考慮到地方的發展但是很重要的是說你們在2017年國防部在舉辦光這個園地它是用台北國防文教專區民間參與的"},{"start":5515.977,"end":5529.907,"text":"興建移轉案當時的一個公聽會也承諾要將藝文廣場還有購屋商場跟便民的一些措施在這邊來興建但是到了2022年他們突然被通知這邊成為檢查大樓"},{"start":5532.368,"end":5536.331,"text":"雖然美其名為檢察園區可是應該如剛才本席這邊所想的你們不可能常常是開放的然後變成一個又要辦公然後又要有一些觀光氛圍的一個空間所以本席這邊要談的是你們在都會的這個核心地帶"},{"start":5549.521,"end":5566.539,"text":"設置高密度的司法設施經過很完整的評估嗎經過跟在地的考量嗎如果未來因為大規模的陳抗如果發生或某一些移送案引發社會的一些舉措造成交通的問題還有民眾的恐慌怎麼辦"},{"start":5569.822,"end":5586.621,"text":"第二個部分是你們這邊跟在地到底有多少溝通在地的居民本席在去年應該先前也應該問過這個問題當地的居民的陳情已經百人了9月之後你們還有沒有公聽會有沒有相關的一些替代方案你們是不是應該要"},{"start":5587.662,"end":5602.604,"text":"有更完整的評估那在你們縝密的這個維安或靜置區怎麼規劃然後這個空間如何在保有過去地景的一個記憶跟現在空間的一個調性那這個是本席是不是可以給本席一個回應"},{"start":5603.184,"end":5631.841,"text":"跟委員報告那因為檢察署北檢跟台高檢他提出的設置他必須要在整個我們司法園區這一塊裡面做相關的運作他不可能離法院太遠在整個台北司法園區他可以選擇的地點實在是非常有限至於這個山關營區事實上在這個跟委員報告在整個過程當中當然大院非常多委員也關心民意代表關心這個事情那整個評估的過程跟現在甚至到這個月上個月"},{"start":5632.501,"end":5661.527,"text":"台北地檢署都還不斷的有跟在地的民意代表或者是里長有一些共識的取得嗎當然他有進行相關的溝通共識的取得當然我們需要台北地檢署更多的努力當然民眾他有講的那些問題也有可能發生成抗事件的話但是未來北檢在整個設計上他要怎麼去避免他整個聽色設計上他要去做相關的規劃北檢他都充分知道了剛剛委員所提的相關問題"},{"start":5662.617,"end":5681.75,"text":"我們只希望這邊不要變成土城看守所的一個前置很重要一點就是吳本席剛才所講的這邊的調性跟這個所謂的檢查園區有很大的一個差異我想在地居民的一個恐慌跟疑慮是必然的最重要的是最黃金的公共空間"},{"start":5683.051,"end":5703.158,"text":"應該有符合最大的公共使用性這點應該是我們在行政作為上要注意的我們常常可能因為便宜形勢或者是就近然後對我們來講說這樣子一個交通便捷的地點可能辦公方便但是很重要的是交通便捷的地點這種公共設施其實很重要的是要符合"},{"start":5703.658,"end":5712.731,"text":"民眾使用的最大公共性那這點我還是在這邊呼籲啦把它考量進去 好嗎好 其實我們會把這意見轉給台考檢跟北檢好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":5732.863,"end":5748.566,"text":"主席我是不是先請我們這個國家發展委員會我們的檔案管理局檔案管理局楊祖密是不是先請請楊曉雯祖密是祖密好這個根據我看到這個司法院的報告書面報告"},{"start":5759.659,"end":5774.183,"text":"我們這個國家發展委員會的檔案管理局我們是不是在有一個有關於這個機關共同性檔案保存年限的基準這樣的相關規定在什麼時候民國幾年的時候制定的"},{"start":5775.222,"end":5796.138,"text":"我們其實相關的這個基準表是陸陸續續在制定所以我們的依據就是其實我們依據的是檔案法第12條它有授權我們訂定這個我看到的是民國94年民國94年4月1號你們訂定的這個機關共同性檔案的保存年限基準這個94年制定之後你們在114年"},{"start":5797.859,"end":5821.035,"text":"这个114年就是今年嘛对不对对今年的4月16你们把这个基准表你们做了修正是对不对你们用一个党增制114001476号函把这个基准表做了个修正是你们经过你们这次修正之后"},{"start":5822.095,"end":5838.821,"text":"現在目前的這個判處死刑的這個評議部現在的保存年限是多久因為原來是10年嘛那我們特別在備註欄有講到是如果刑法判處死刑的那個評議部要永久保存要永久保存 也就是說"},{"start":5839.824,"end":5857.81,"text":"今天假設沒有修法但是按照你們的這個基準這個規則事實上從現在開始判處死刑的這個評議部就應該要依照你們的規定就要永久保存了對不對是對好謝謝主席我們先請那個司法院請王副秘書長"},{"start":5863.575,"end":5865.117,"text":"剛剛我們跟檔案局去了解其實按照現在我們用這個"},{"start":5874.963,"end":5896.761,"text":"以這個國發會他的這個檔案管理局他的這個機關共通性檔案的保存年限基準依這個行政規則事實上現在的這個判決實行的評議部現在是必須要永久保存所以你們我看你們的書面資料你們認為依照這個就夠了我們這個法院組織法第106條其實"},{"start":5901.793,"end":5923.106,"text":"你們沒有說不應該修正你們說請大院再予以斟酌意思是說拜託你們考慮一下應該是不用訂是不是這個意思因為從結果上來看的話就是目前不修的話也是達到相同的行政目的所以如果我們修你們反對嗎"},{"start":5924.187,"end":5945.306,"text":"也不反對尊重立法院的職權聽起來看起來是好像沒什麼差別但是其實是有差別的如果真的沒有永久保存在法律上面你的救濟的方式就不一樣你違反一個行政規則跟違反"},{"start":5950.05,"end":5977.34,"text":"違反這個法院處置法的規定那個是救濟的方式是完全不一樣對不對是對所以這個部分我個人是其實是不反對這個修法我認為說雖然說現在已經有這個這樣的這個檔案局的這樣規定但是我認為說這樣修法事實上也是一種保障這個部分不曉得這個副名長競表同意我對OK好"},{"start":5978.396,"end":5997.161,"text":"那這個法院組長這比較單純那接下來副院長請回主席在講電話我們這時間可以稍微幫我暫停一下主席 不好意思那我現在副院長請回我請法務部 請次長請法務部委員好"},{"start":6002.464,"end":6022.077,"text":"次長好接下來這一條我們今天總共我看有三個法律條文有一個實施辦法這三個法律條文裡面我個人對於法院組織法第83條的這個條文修正這部分我個人認為事關最嚴重最大條這個事關重大所以我今天就請這個次長上來"},{"start":6029.363,"end":6050.071,"text":"這個按照現行條我看到今天這個修正案法院組法第83條的這個修正條文修正案他跟這個現行的條文大概最大的有兩個差異最大的兩個差異第一個就是起訴書公布的時間點原本現行的規定是在第一審裁判書公開之後"},{"start":6051.618,"end":6076.348,"text":"才公開嘛那按照這個修正條文是在偵查終結後就公開也就是說在偵查終結你偵查終結之後審判還沒有開始還沒開始審判你就要先公開這個起訴書的內容這是第一個很大的差異第二個就是所謂不起訴處分不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書"},{"start":6078.729,"end":6094.541,"text":"依照目前規定是不用公開現在這個修正案變成不起訴署分書跟還起訴署分書也要公開對不對我覺得這兩件事情知識體大知識體大這個值得我們真的要好好的來考慮跟討論"},{"start":6097.318,"end":6120.128,"text":"首先就是起訴書的起訴時點的部分這個部分這個是不是先請次長表示一下如果我們起訴書公佈起訴書的這個時點從現在事實上在一審裁判這個第一審的裁判書公開之後才公開那如果依照修正如果我們萬一立法院我們司法委員會通過這個法律修正把它提早到偵查終結那會有什麼影響"},{"start":6120.908,"end":6148.548,"text":"各位報告那這個現行法它定在一審裁判後才公開起訴書其實它也是一個法律權衡後的結果其實按照無罪推定理論上確定前都應該是無罪推定都不應該公開但是涉及到人民知的權利跟資訊公開所以當時現行法它當時做一個權衡法律的權衡所以它定在經過法院的審理相關事實已經經過一個公開審理程序之後法院也下了判決之後我們起訴書才"},{"start":6149.349,"end":6158.375,"text":"跟著公開將來權衡民眾知的權利知性公開跟無罪推定原則相互的平衡所以我們認為我們修法把它提早到審判前會有什麼樣的影響那就是跟我們有影響有什麼關係就修吧"},{"start":6165.279,"end":6190.072,"text":"因為就是說等於起訴還沒有經過一個審理的程序就已經把他的犯罪事實揭露了不是犯罪事實是我們檢察官檢察機關所認定的犯罪事實他不是最終的最後可能無罪所以他可能是違反無罪推定原則的他可能是無罪啊這審判結果是無罪但是我在整個起訴書你們檢察官認為你們的證據就掌握你們覺得可以"},{"start":6190.672,"end":6211.702,"text":"但是最後審判是無罪所以現行法的83條第三項做這樣子權衡的規定是有它的道理這個就第一個當然是這個會違反這個所謂無罪推定原則這個是你剛剛講的除了無罪推定原則以外這個還有更嚴重的就是對於發現真實其實它是有影響的"},{"start":6212.816,"end":6229.897,"text":"就是現在有一些犯罪我現在偵查終結起訴並不是整個案件全部都偵查完畢了他可能是這個部分尤其是現在這種組織化這個組織化複雜的這種犯罪當中有的我是這個部分我先偵查先偵查終結先做一部分就一部分的事實跟這個"},{"start":6232.52,"end":6251.956,"text":"這個當事人先進行起訴其實案件還在繼續進行但是你如果在這個時候就把這個起訴書公開包括你所有偵查內容你掌握的證據證人包括你的所有這些過程事實上就公開了你可能還有同案這個相關案件仍然在偵查當中會影響到這個發現真實的機會對不對對 這點我們完全贊同"},{"start":6257.52,"end":6284.582,"text":"更嚴重的我們現在有國民審判有國民法官的審判會造成預斷的問題對啦 這個國民法官案件你這個起訴書這樣公開預斷這就是為什麼所謂起訴書一本起訴書一本主義就是避免國民法官預斷避免他預斷但是我們現在如果說我們修法反正主法修法之後你只要偵查中檢起訴書就必須公開那所有這些國民法官他在進入審判程序的時候他就已經有所預斷了對不對"},{"start":6287.017,"end":6310.784,"text":"是不是這樣 沒有錯 對所以我認為說這個修法要審慎這個要把看起來只是一個時間點的提早就是把起訴書從一審判決一審判決起訴書公開以後才公開提早到審查終結就公開我認為這個影響事關重大這部分我覺得說我們法務部要很清楚的論述讓這個本委員會的委員來了解這第一個 謝謝委員"},{"start":6311.584,"end":6335.038,"text":"第二個我認為更嚴重的就是所謂不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書的公開這個不起訴處分受不起訴處分的意思當然是說我們現在經過這個檢察官偵查之後認為現在掌握的證據不足以證明你為犯罪但是事實上在法律上面你就是無罪的人你就是一個無罪的人不是嗎所以我才不起訴結果一個"},{"start":6338.206,"end":6353.807,"text":"我偵查過程中可能針對你的交友狀況針對你的財務針對你的很多的隱私經過調查但是調查結果你是不用起訴的結果把這些東西全部公開公開說所以我不起訴你但是所有的這些我的這個過程"},{"start":6355.188,"end":6374.33,"text":"本來我最後我是無辜的人啊我是無辜的人所以我受不起訴處分但這整個過程調查過程中的這些證據這些你的交友關係你的財務流向你的金流都在不起訴書裡面被公開了那為什麼無辜的人要受到這樣子的待遇"},{"start":6375.51,"end":6404.048,"text":"這是第一個啦第二個是所謂還起訴的處分還起訴的處分它的設計它原本也就是說是有利於你復歸啦所謂復歸就是說你的這個橫著按照這個刑事重法253條之二你這個檢察官你按照刑法57條的刑的酌量你這些條件還有甚至是公共利益的考量所以予以你還起訴就是希望你能夠有一個自新自新跟復歸的一個機會"},{"start":6406.206,"end":6427.723,"text":"但是如果你已經我這個檢察官我經過這諸多的考量這個按照刑法第57條這些刑的佐量跟這個社會公共利益之後我認為應該給你還起訴但是我又把你的這個我整個偵查過程的這個還起訴書把你公開把它公開讓所有人知道"},{"start":6428.624,"end":6446.676,"text":"那這個對於你的戶規跟你的我不曉得他這樣子公開他的在促進什麼樣的法益他在這個是不是請次長講一下這點也是咱們報告提的啦如果在這個偵查終結就公開被告的緩起訴處分書的話"},{"start":6447.617,"end":6474.001,"text":"其實真正的會跟我們緩起訴處分書緩起訴處分這樣訴訟制度所制定的立法目的是相違背的緩起訴他現在雖然犯罪了但檢察官基於公益上的考量跟個人的社會富貴的考量特別預防的考量所以這個考量所以給他緩起訴其實是為了他再社會化一個轉向政策如果我們這個時候再把他的相關的個資相關的事實公開其實是不利於這個立法目的的達成"},{"start":6475.042,"end":6493.275,"text":"所以這部分我們是完全贊同剛剛委員所提的這些不起訴書 緩起訴書裡面他可能會跟當事人甚至當事人以外的相關人員一些交友 家庭 職場 財務健康 醫療 甚至性傾向等等這些東西可能都在不起訴書 緩起訴書中被揭露這個被揭露"},{"start":6499.008,"end":6513.161,"text":"你這樣等於說不管是不起訴還是傳起訴不起訴還是傳起訴都是說我們認定你是一個不需要經過審判的人不需要接受審判的人結果你一個不需要接受審判的人因為這樣的公開而使你接受了輿論的審判"},{"start":6514.95,"end":6541.991,"text":"這是我們最擔心的所以我認為說這個制度的設計真的要三思你們在整個整個這個我們未來進入真正的這個條件討論的時候我希望法務部能夠把這些這些疑慮跟這個這個社會法益的這些相關的這些考量能夠跟我們本會委員說明清楚好不好好 謝謝委員那當然另外還有這個憲法訴訟法這個法庭直播這個我就未來在逐條討論的時候我們再來討論好了以上 謝謝委員"},{"start":6571.383,"end":6573.869,"text":"我們接下來請翁曉琳委員翁朝偉謝謝 那麼我想首先先請司法院王蜂蜜"},{"start":6586.902,"end":6609.098,"text":"王富明早安我們想今天主要是針對本席所提出來的憲法訴訟法的條文來進行討論當然我也看到了司法院的報告在這邊我有幾個意見我想要跟王富明這裡討論首先雖然說在你的報告裡面還有包含剛剛的檔案局的主命也都說了"},{"start":6609.578,"end":6629.485,"text":"目前機關共同性檔案保存年限基準裡面其實已經有做了備註我剛剛仔細聽了原來它並不是修正而是說特別是就死刑品一部的部分它是做一個備註說那個部分可以永久保存但是我想請教就是機關共同性檔案保存年限基準它的法律性質是什麼它是法律嗎"},{"start":6636.038,"end":6650.988,"text":"還是它是一個行政規則這是一個職權命令不是法律對 它基本上就是一個行政規則是 對不對那麼既然是行政規則的話那原則上就是這個機關 行政機關它想要改的時候隨時它就可以改"},{"start":6652.11,"end":6670.013,"text":"他不需要經過立法院的同意 對不對所以今天我們講說是這死刑評議部現在他是用備註方式永久保存說不定這也不是或許有可能他以後他死刑評議部他說不需要永久保存保存20年就好了"},{"start":6670.794,"end":6685.439,"text":"有沒有這個可能性所以報告委員就是結論上的話就是修這個100在法組法修106條這個司法院也完全沒有意見也沒有意見嘛只是說當然我知道你們的意思是說目前的行政目的是有做到"},{"start":6685.879,"end":6705.171,"text":"只是說那本行當然是更早的時候就提出來希望能夠把這個事情明文化然後定在法律裡面那這樣就那這樣的話就更能夠就彰顯就是說對他的明確性那麼同時呢也符合大法官現判字的這個意旨就是未來的死刑的部分"},{"start":6706.232,"end":6720.412,"text":"就是要了解當時法官所做的議決的這個情況所以我想這樣的一個修法當然沒有什麼太大的問題最後就看我們立法院這裡要怎麼做那麼接下來還有一個部分就是"},{"start":6722.236,"end":6739.552,"text":"對於書狀類的要公開那麼我剛剛在提案說明的時候我其實已經有講了就是為什麼當時認為說司法院的書狀類要公開那也是因為這個篇幅的限制基本上很不合理"},{"start":6739.952,"end":6745.614,"text":"而這也是屬於憲法法庭自己內部的一個行政規則就做了這樣的限制但是在你們的說明裡面說你們認為說整個書狀公開資訊會過於龐雜無益於憲法議題的思辨的立法目的達成坦白說我針對這句話我是有意見的"},{"start":6760.5,"end":6786.743,"text":"資訊越多越公開它其實可以滿足各個不同人民對於資訊的這樣的一個需求跟渴望你不能夠說用你們自己的憲法法庭的角度去認定哪一個憲法議題是對人民的思辨有利哪些議題是對人民的思辨是不必要的我覺得這樣的論斷是不是過於快了"},{"start":6791.546,"end":6809.417,"text":"要說明嗎好 是第一個先向委員報告是其實世界上就是有設憲法法院的國家我們去看了一下它那個立法例大部分是歐洲像德國或是奧地利比利時跟我們查了"},{"start":6810.737,"end":6823.821,"text":"韓國跟我們鄉親的韓國就是他們的書狀都不需要公開的當時我們在修限數法的時候事實上已經有擴大了擴大了就是說選重要的像申請狀 答辯狀這一類的"},{"start":6828.742,"end":6854.627,"text":"好 了解就是說當然其他國家的國情可能不見得是不一樣不見得他們有像我們憲法法庭有做了一些奇奇怪怪的一些規定那麼我要講就是說如果說從資訊公開的角度來看然後更何況現在技術不是問題所有的現在的書類的各式各樣的檔案它上傳到整個系統上面不會有所謂的空間不足的問題"},{"start":6855.925,"end":6882.632,"text":"所以資訊公開這件事情很容易做到書狀類公開也很容易做到它不會說是會影響到增加多少憲法法庭的負擔而這樣子的一個書狀的公開我覺得真的是可以幫助更多的人民那麼他可以更了解憲法法庭的運作以及在審理的過程當中大家不同方的一個思辨一個辯論的過程"},{"start":6885.007,"end":6900.637,"text":"那麼本席認為說這個部分的話是有必要的而且也不會有所謂耗費審判行政人力的時間成本的問題這個我們可能從司法行政的端有不一樣的觀察因為現在目前"},{"start":6901.337,"end":6927.057,"text":"就是只是那個裁判書公開他為了就是說這些個資的遮影事實上就耗掉我們非常大的司法行政成本因為必須把相關的個資就是把他那個遮影才能夠對外公開這個個資有時候事實上他不是只是出現譬如說像王梅英這樣一個名字他事實上是有上下就是那個脈絡沒有出現名字但是從上下那個比對可以知道說這個個資是誰所以"},{"start":6929.319,"end":6940.01,"text":"就是說光是裁判書公開這樣一個事情就耗掉我們書記官這一端不過憲法法庭的案件也沒有像一般法院的案件這麼多更何況這個是書狀所以說書狀這些內容非常非常多"},{"start":6945.535,"end":6972.571,"text":"所以就是司法這部分的話就是你們在整個的這個系統的精進還有怎麼樣能夠讓剛剛講的像這個資訊要去識別化你們可能要想一個更好的方法然後去做認定去改善那樣的一個作業程序可是一不能講說因為我的行政的作業程序很複雜那這樣我很多的負擔所以我有些東西我就選擇性的哪些書狀要公開哪些書狀就不公開那同樣的問題我想接下來請黃次長"},{"start":6975.113,"end":6982.738,"text":"在檢察官的書類的部分同樣的問題就是對於檢查書類的公開的部分你們今天認為說如果說檢查書狀的公開可能會違反無罪推定原則偵查不公開"},{"start":6995.668,"end":7016.373,"text":"等等這些原則那本席要講就是偵查不公開跟無罪推定這個就是刑事訴訟法的基本原則那本席也認為這樣的原則很重要應該要維護可是這些原則也不是可以無限上綱對你們現在這個地檢署不是常常也會在一個重大案件偵查終結起訴之後你們也會公開相關透過新聞稿的方式去公開起訴書的內容不是嗎那這個就沒有違反"},{"start":7024.855,"end":7053.01,"text":"偵查不公開嗎就沒有違反無罪推定嗎對 各位報告偵查不公開他要權衡很多的法律這案件的進行還有無罪推定還有整個訴訟關係人的民意隱私安全他所做的一個折衝的規定所以偵查不公開辦法裡面有的原則又例外 例外又再例外相關規定來折衝相關的法律的權衡所以我應該講沒有錯他有例外但是他又必須要有一個特殊的考量法律要特別明文規定及公義上的目的"},{"start":7053.57,"end":7082.743,"text":"他才可以做一个特别处理但是我们现在是我们现在的草案是全面性的公开是为什么要全面性的公开因为其实本席已经常常听到有律师事务界的朋友或者说有些老百姓就会质疑为什么看起来是同样类似的犯罪事实的案子那么但是呢最后检察官会却做了不同的的一个判断可能有些是起诉有些是不起诉或是还起诉但是会大家"},{"start":7083.463,"end":7096.294,"text":"会很 confuse不知道为什么检察官今天会对于类似案件非常相近的这个应该是说他事实非常相近的案子有些却做了起诉有些却做了不起诉"},{"start":7097.369,"end":7119.319,"text":"那我想檢察官的起訴書也應該是要可受這個公平可受大家去監督的就算是說你們自己講說你們內部有經過什麼附議還有一個內部的一個審查的機制可是這也還是存在於你們內部外界也並不知道他到底檢察官今天有沒有可能有包庇有持案等等這些狀況"},{"start":7120.379,"end":7146.588,"text":"各位報告 如果起訴的話當然經過法院review的機制去審核不起訴或緩起訴事實上我們除了內控機制之外告訴人他也可以申請准許提起自訴透過一個外部法院監督立案來監控檢察官的不起訴處分書所以在制度選擇上不是只有內控的機制他有外控的機制來監督檢察官的不起訴處分的結果另外本期要講的就是因為我們現在講的是偵查終結"},{"start":7148.248,"end":7172.235,"text":"終結之後然後才將一些偵查書類公開既然是偵查終結就是代表在這個段落在這樣子的一個情況下他現在已經這個偵查告一段落了所以他應該把他現在目前偵查的這個狀況然後公開這個部分的話這個會跟之後的你們說又會有後面的什麼要追究什麼"},{"start":7173.335,"end":7198.373,"text":"因为侦查终结检察官做的不起诉处分之后告诉人他是可以对不起诉处分或还起诉提起救济的一旦救济的话高检署甚至法院他有可能会不支持检察官做的不起诉或还起诉他会发回来我们地检署重新再行侦查又回复到侦查程序当中这时候又要有侦查不公开的限制了是啦 不过就是说我们从整个的这个"},{"start":7201.755,"end":7217.225,"text":"這個偵查書類公開的角度來看的話其實就是這個部分最重要的就是希望能夠讓老百姓知道檢察官在相關案子裡面他們的作為是如何"},{"start":7218.325,"end":7232.421,"text":"对 那么这当然任何一个政策一个法律的修正它都有利弊得失的考量那现在的问题就是人民对于司法就太不信任了总觉得很多的案子是不是检察官可能就一手遮天"},{"start":7233.462,"end":7252.203,"text":"那明明該起訴的但他不起訴對 那麼這個問題我覺得很嚴重那麼更何況我們現在講了就是你現在法院組織法第80條83條第一項第二項對法院的裁判書有公開而且已經有講了如果說法律有除外規定有去識別化等等這些另外規定的話這些都是可以做的"},{"start":7252.743,"end":7269.709,"text":"這不是不能做當然就像剛剛王富密說的這可能會增加了行政成本可是我想增加這個行政成本如果它是有利於讓人民更了解司法讓司法資訊更為透明那我認為這樣子的一個付出一個負擔其實是有必要的"},{"start":7270.289,"end":7296.251,"text":"對 跟委員報告要監督檢察官是否起訴適當或不起訴是否適當其實訴訟法上它就有它的相關的監督機制啦如果透過公開書類的方式它其實不是個最好的一個方式更何況它會有剛剛講很多法律的權衡的結果其實不見得剛剛委員提到很多人想公開搞不好有更多的訴訟關係的人他是不願意被公開的如果我們全面性的公開揭露的話是不是對這些人的權益會產生很大的影響呢"},{"start":7297.088,"end":7304.976,"text":"不過就是說一般的法院判決這個做成之後他也是都全面公開嘛就是說這些你剛剛講的一些訴狀的利害關係他可能也是會呈現在判決書狀裡面那當然透過去識別化等等的一些做法還是可以達到所以現在法院判決書都這麼做因為他畢竟請訴書也是在一審判決之後他也會公開"},{"start":7319.97,"end":7324.616,"text":"所以我們認為維持現狀其實是比較妥適的最後還有一點點時間謝謝王次長我再請教王富密我們知道其實在今年的11月初有一位最高法院的法官前庭長周銀文法官"},{"start":7338.473,"end":7364.714,"text":"那麼因為這個懷疑是高血壓引發腦出血送醫急救這當然就是又引起了本席對於就是司法官人力的一個問題的關心那麼長期來說就是過去都認為法官過勞那麼在之前也曾經有司法院有在推動是不是一個法官一助理那麼目前為止有經做到所謂一法官一助理嗎"},{"start":7366.42,"end":7387.4,"text":"謝謝委員關心就是我們那個法官權益的部分目前一個法官一個助理這個是有的是有的幾乎全面性都已經做到了除了就是說比較技術性的問題譬如說像那個庭長他沒有辦全部跟法官一樣多的案件所以說庭長跟審判長大概是三個人配一個"},{"start":7388.842,"end":7411.898,"text":"好 那麼這個司法人力配置還有它結構的問題本席認為很重要那麼我希望就是說你們可以再提供給本席就是近五年來全國各級法官的聘用合約用的法官助理人數的佔比法官助理的流動率等等那麼另外其實本席有聽到有接獲一些訊息就是像是"},{"start":7413.079,"end":7434.919,"text":"這個有些少家庭的法官他們負擔非常非常沉重那麼是不是也可以你們請你們也提供相關的數據給我就是目前這個法院裡面有少家庭的有涉事少家庭那麼法官的人數以及在這個整個法院裡面的人數的比例好不好 請給我一份相關的數據好 謝謝委員會提供"},{"start":7452.25,"end":7477.27,"text":"接下來有請吳宗憲委員發言好 麻煩複密複密 我想說因為時間的關係我就速度進快一點我想一個很簡單的就是新北歌喉的那個案子我想已經有一段時間過去了那搞不好社會大家都已經慢慢的忘記那個事情但是我覺得新北歌喉案那個楊爸爸他"},{"start":7478.231,"end":7505.417,"text":"的一些後面跟我們的一些接觸其實一直讓我忘記不了那個案子我也希望說藉由那個案子能夠讓我們國家對於未成年的保護以及未成年犯罪加以重視然後一些有問題的法案趕快修改好然後能夠保障我們很多年輕人以及我們很多年輕人在學校或是在社會上面的安全反正我是上個星期四審少事法的時候就要來請教你雖然跟今天的議題有點不太一樣因為剛好上個星期四那個鳳凰颱風"},{"start":7507.148,"end":7528.517,"text":"的問題所以我就留在宜蘭去勘栽所以那天沒辦法過來本來那天我就要跟你請教這個問題那我想說今天我還是利用這個機會跟你討論一下我想我們看一下從那個少年事件處理的流程我們看這個圖片其實少年事件 少年犯一些犯罪其實它分兩大部分我想"},{"start":7529.358,"end":7542.377,"text":"父母應該非常的理解這一塊就有關少年事件少年保護事件還有少年的刑事案件這兩個不一樣那五年以上的案件其實他會被送到檢察官那邊他等於是一個逆送的狀況跟那個"},{"start":7544.44,"end":7564.891,"text":"一般少年犯輕罪其實是不一樣他的走的流程整個狀況是不一樣我想傅敏應該非常的了解那這個部分我就不多說但是因為我還是必須要讓大家知道如果少年犯的是五年以上的重罪的時候那這個時候會有檢察官出來來主導整個偵查"},{"start":7566.112,"end":7594.043,"text":"但是如果是一般少年犯輕罪那這時候我們以一個保護優先的概念我們會讓法院來管理這個事情走向保護處分然後他所做的是一些比較非對抗的跨專業的合作的法官比較職權介入的方式然後避免這個小孩子因為犯輕罪而被貼標籤這個是我國目前的法制是這樣但是對於比較重大的案件"},{"start":7595.023,"end":7605.187,"text":"那這時候甲官介入就是一個比較國家公權力的強制去介入但是我們剛剛講的小朋友犯罪有這兩種輕跟重這兩個狀況但是呢"},{"start":7608.359,"end":7626.8,"text":"犯罪之後前科的突銷多久能突銷本來也應該不一樣但是在我國的目前突銷的標準卻一模一樣所以都是走三年觀察期是單一一個標準也就是說如果今天這個小朋友進去家裡面偷東西竊盜罪五年以下走三年保護"},{"start":7627.461,"end":7643.156,"text":"但是他如果在偷的時候被屋主發現他變成是強盜施以暴力的時候變成5年以上這時候又會轉由檢察官來處理所以面對這兩種案子一個是走向保護管束另外一個是檢察官介入調查"},{"start":7643.777,"end":7658.054,"text":"但是他們突銷卻一模一樣這個時候請問一下 複密你們是不是忽略了惡性極端重大的案子這個少年前科的突銷制度要有所不一樣怎麼可以用同一套標準 請問複密"},{"start":7659.673,"end":7674.853,"text":"好 那個謝謝委員垂詢因為就是有關於那個少年的那個不管是保護事件或者是那個刑事前科他的那個塗銷雖然兩個性質不一樣可是他們相同的立法意旨都是為了讓他們復歸就是讓那個可以"},{"start":7678.837,"end":7702.308,"text":"所以我刚跟您提到我知道你也其实我也猜到你会这样回答就为了保护少年要让他回归社会我们这个出发点没有错但是这两个东西如果混为一谈没有一个差异化的话其实你们是不是忽略掉了一个很重要的观念就是一个社会防卫的责任是不是我们忽略到社会防卫责任"},{"start":7702.768,"end":7724.462,"text":"所以從新北戈侯案這個案子我就看到了一個點我們似乎好像對於未成年的保護就是保護到極致保護到爆炸保護到完全沒什麼好談就是保護到底但是我們卻忘了去忽略掉有一些人有一些特殊的狀況雖然未成年人大部分其實都不會去犯重罪但是極端少數的那些人"},{"start":7725.262,"end":7750.736,"text":"犯了重罪但是我們對於他的觀察期一模一樣的話會不會反而讓社會上面其他的小朋友或其他的人反而因此而活在恐懼中像譬如我小孩還小那他之後要去上小學的時候我也會擔心他們班會不會有一個類似這樣的人但是因為我們要給這種犯罪的人保護就我不知道我小孩子可能跟一個有犯過重罪的人兩個在同一個班級上課"},{"start":7751.878,"end":7779.044,"text":"那老師也不知道就到最後沒有人知道要先去預防一些事情新北哥侯案就是這樣發生這麼悲劇發生之後我們卻沒有注意到有什麼要改變好 那我再請教您一個問題我們剛剛講的竊盜 強盜這個也是有的是產案犯罪有的是輕罪 有的是重罪那我請問一下殺人的話如果這個小朋友殺了人"},{"start":7780.256,"end":7786.17,"text":"那為什麼他跟竊盜的輕罪一樣都是三年歸零呢我請教你"},{"start":7786.673,"end":7809.158,"text":"那個包委員那個委員垂詢的這個其實就是一個形式政策的一個選擇就是說我們是把它擺在就是跟您剛剛的解釋一樣就是幫少年能夠復歸保護少年形式政策對不對但是我再重申一次我們這個邏輯是忽略掉社會防衛的這個責任所以"},{"start":7811.118,"end":7835.567,"text":"新北哥和那個同班同學目睹他殺了十幾刀的這個人把人殺死一刀殺死那我們關切的是對於這種動不動把這個小朋友是別個小朋友的生命於無物的時候那我們對他的觀察期卻跟偷個東西的觀察期是一樣的這樣合理嗎你對於其他小朋友"},{"start":7837.127,"end":7860.372,"text":"乖乖的小朋友或者是一般的爸媽你對他們公平嗎這是我要提出來請司法院一定要去注意到這個感覺否則人民的感覺會是什麼你在跟我唱高空講大道理我一點都不在乎你今天跟我講什麼我只要我的小孩平平安安的出門平平安安的回家來陪我平平安安長大陪著我我說真的我只在乎這個啦"},{"start":7861.826,"end":7878.012,"text":"人民會這樣跟你講所以司法院請不要拿刑事政策或拿什麼富貴這種大道理來告訴人民這個人民不會買單的好 然後再來你說的這個三年如果觀察期都一樣那我告訴你你反而害慘了小孩子"},{"start":7878.692,"end":7900.202,"text":"因為我以前走刑事案件偵查我走了那麼多年我走了20年的刑事偵查我看到了一個點很多黑幫會用這些小孩子他就告訴小孩子反正你犯罪也不會被怎麼樣然後觀察期也才三年反而這些黑幫更喜歡把這些小孩子當作免洗塊來用反正這個小孩出事了換下一批小孩"},{"start":7900.982,"end":7908.86,"text":"有更多小孩子他未來可以無限的使用我叫小孩子去開槍開完槍之後打死人了反正沒差嘛"},{"start":7909.995,"end":7937.561,"text":"判沒有多久而且三年後突銷所以我們可以這樣做嗎我們這樣子做以為維持社會正義以為保障小孩子會不會反而害了更多的小孩子我覺得我們要面對的是司法的實務社會的現實而不是在象牙塔裡面講原理原則講理論因為我們是司法第一線實務的人我們不是大學教授所以當我看到司法實務有這個狀況發生的時候"},{"start":7939.801,"end":7946.758,"text":"我想您一定要特別注意這個點成少共犯以及成年人把小朋友當作免洗塊的這個問題"},{"start":7948.874,"end":7969.547,"text":"法官在處理案件是就個案所以法官有時候他鑒數不見你沒辦法但是您是司法院的高層你必須站在高空看地面你不能跟著第一線的司法判案人員就站在地面看地面你必須站在300公尺高空你必須站在你必須要鑒零不是只能鑒數"},{"start":7971.048,"end":7994.002,"text":"對不對 你不是見數不見零的人啊所以要麻煩你們同時思考小朋友的保護以及善良小朋友的保護必須要橫平所以我個人在這邊建議 塗銷的觀察期絕對不能一致麻煩你們能夠去審慎思考這個點因為社會安全防衛的底線我們要堅守住"},{"start":7995.034,"end":8002.349,"text":"我今天看到的就是不停的保障這些犯罪者我們國家的司法制度整天告訴我被告的權益要保障"},{"start":8003.735,"end":8026.633,"text":"但是我想告訴你的一件事我更在乎善良百姓以及被害人的權益要保障但是我今天看到是一堆人每天都在喊被告的權利我們是不是忘了被害人的權利一樣對小朋友也是你跟我說要讓他復歸社會你跟我說要保護未成年人但是我想到的是那那些善良的小朋友們呢誰來保護所以"},{"start":8029.192,"end":8056.799,"text":"我希望師父因為你們這次提出來的版本還是一模一樣所以你今天不提一個修正版本你至少要回應我的書面質詢至少要告訴我你們的想法是什麼該怎麼辦如何兼顧社會防衛跟刑法正義的治安需求你必須要告訴我這個點我要在這邊跟您強調不管是犯罪的或者是其他小朋友每一個人都是家裡面的寶我會說我看我兒子"},{"start":8057.879,"end":8080.459,"text":"我兒子我跟你講 我為他我有99條命我願意為他死100次都可以每一個家長都是這樣在看待小孩所以麻煩你們要特別注意就是當小朋友不停的在踐踏司法底線的時候其實我們就應該終止法律對這個小朋友的寬容了因為我的訴求對好人更好 對壞人更壞"},{"start":8081.44,"end":8108.035,"text":"那好 最後就是30秒兒少證人的保護請你們注意這件事情你們不能放任各個法院對於證人的保護讓各個法官去決定因為我到北院去看新北地院去看那個走廊很小結果我們那個新北那隔壁案證人來竟然跟被告兩個人就在那邊隔一公尺多互看然後結果這個證人回去被人家騷擾"},{"start":8109.369,"end":8129.49,"text":"我覺得你們要用制度來處理這件事情你不能讓各個法院各自為政好不好我跟你講只有能夠補動的是制度我們不能永遠靠運氣好過往證人開完庭之後出去被殺的好幾件又有桃園又有律師開完庭出去被被告殺死所以我們不能每個案子"},{"start":8130.191,"end":8149.602,"text":"都靠運氣請全國一致搞一個制度來處理所以三個月內呢給我一個兒少正能保護要點動線分流還有候審隔離的基準要有那個動線分流獨立等候區或候審隔離區或者是有沒有人陪同等待這個麻煩給我一個這個要點"},{"start":8151.603,"end":8179.466,"text":"你們要完成這個要點 好不好然後要給我一下然後還有一個開庭前進庭中退庭後保護的SOP而且要列入法院的評鑑我不希望還有民眾因為開庭然後出法院之後被殺死前陣子那什麼殺死加包案件殺死小姨子就是這樣 好不好好 謝謝複密是 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我先做會議程序的報告待會在吳思堯委員群黨完畢之後我們休息五分鐘好 接著請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":8183.34,"end":8207.161,"text":"司法院王蜂蜜署長請王蜂蜜蜂蜜好 今年三讀通過修正法院組織法90條它其實司法透明的一個重要里程碑但是我知道司法院多次都表達不太贊成我想請問蜂蜜署長三讀之後司法院的態度是什麼"},{"start":8210.201,"end":8224.998,"text":"因為立法院和司法院都是憲政機關所以說我們雖然當時在立法過程中我們有表達了我們的意見但是立法院通過之後我們就是尊重在這個底下來制定那個執法"},{"start":8226.01,"end":8247.677,"text":"这我们基本态度对非常好我就是要你这个答案就是说基本上当然每一届政策的主张都各有利弊那既然立法院从宪政架构来看的话三读通过的法律实际上司法院就必须尊重那但是我再问下一个问题就是说"},{"start":8248.629,"end":8269.772,"text":"我看到你们的所谓的法庭录音录影公开播送的实施办法那这当然是根据我们修正的法院组织法第90条的末项法庭录音录影公开播送相关事项之办法由司法院定制那我想请问一下"},{"start":8271.033,"end":8296.532,"text":"你刚也讲要尊重立法院嘛那既然法律已经通过了虽然立法院授权让你们来定定办法那要不要尊重立法院当时的修法意旨这个我们绝对尊重绝对尊重有吗有绝对尊重吗我们来看看你们的这个所谓的实施办法第12条是怎么规定的"},{"start":8301.134,"end":8323.308,"text":"手上那个条文第12条就是依本法公开播送之言词辩论录音录影应于该案件裁判宣誓或公告后播出我想请问这是当时我们三读通过的法律意旨吗"},{"start":8324.537,"end":8344.094,"text":"一律要等到裁判宣誓後才播出這是當時我們通過法院組織法的立法意旨嗎那個跟委員報告因為這個母法它是有在這個母法它是規定的我把這個條文打開"},{"start":8349.364,"end":8368.43,"text":"在那個最高法院這邊就是全部一律要公開然後在那個40審那個部分他說有關於這一個法庭所謂的錄音錄影依當事人的申請或是依職權以適當的那個方式實施公開播送"},{"start":8369.23,"end":8394.213,"text":"那什麼是適當的方式這是授權我們司法院來處理當時在立法過程中就是依立法意旨委員也講了公開播送有兩種一種是Live還有一種是Delay Live他說我們所講的公開播送什麼時候要用Live的沒有Live他說你們可以用Delay Live這個不只一個委員"},{"start":8394.873,"end":8422.23,"text":"然後另外就是說90條母法的90條第6項申請參與者程序參與者他可以申請把錄音錄影變聲變相或者是其他的去識別化那既然要把這些就是說你要去把它變聲變影還有去識別化那他都不可能是在直播的當時做他一定是要去事後做的"},{"start":8423.17,"end":8442.43,"text":"對 那我們另外也考量了就是說當時在那個公聽會的時候大家所提出的這一些那個疑慮那所以認為說在我們的那個裁量的權限底下認為說剛上路的時候我們應該要先那個穩健以上"},{"start":8443.231,"end":8465.124,"text":"好那我念一下立法例子給你聽好不好是我們在第90條的立法的說明裡面有講為推動公開透明之司法總統府司改國是會106年作成以下決議大法官憲法法庭最高法院以及最高行政法院召開延遲辯論英語直播"},{"start":8467.586,"end":8474.076,"text":"他其实很特别强调直播的这件事情我要先来回来我先回到刚刚那个傅敏俊讲的"},{"start":8475.023,"end":8503.061,"text":"基本上本来就有所谓的直播延迟直播还有包括说今天要有些特殊的案件是要排除在公开播送之外这连我们在所谓的法律定定的时候都也讲到有妨害国家安全公共秩序善良风俗造成个人生命身体隐私或营业秘密之重大损害之余者得以裁定不予公开播送"},{"start":8503.949,"end":8533.089,"text":"這也是在立法的過程當中其實有考量到你剛剛講的種種的情況但你知道我今天質詢的重點在什麼在立法議址上你除了一些排除狀況之外他其實還是希望你能夠用所謂的直播的方式來去處理我支持有些狀況是用延遲直播我甚至支持有些狀況是不應該公開播送的可是你知道你們的辦法定的是一律"},{"start":8534.51,"end":8547.712,"text":"全部都是一定是要嘛按照裡面的不公開播送的部分那就不公開播送但是呢裡面沒有含色的所謂的不可以公開播送的這些所謂的"},{"start":8548.732,"end":8571.964,"text":"那個法庭的狀況事實上按照立法意旨的話你應該要包含去區別有的是應該是採取直播那有的你要採取延遲直播或是要做其他的包括你要變音變影或是有一些保護的做法那都已經含設在法律裡面的例外規定裡面了所以當你今天你的辦法裡面你直接就跟大家講說"},{"start":8573.505,"end":8596.831,"text":"通通都是一律是延遲在播送的話五天延遲播送那你需要什麼作業時間但實際上不是啊不是其他有些國家也是有所謂的法庭上的直播也是有啊那別人難道就沒有考量這些問題嗎所以在這種過程當中我還是要希望今天我們的司法院你前面都講要尊重立法"},{"start":8597.771,"end":8620.033,"text":"但是你在定辦法的過程當中我覺得你是放大了今天立法院給你授權制定辦法的空間你沒有回到我們立法議職裡面不管怎麼樣講我要先特別強調一件事情今天我們法院組織法今天為什麼這樣修訂實際上我覺得就是公開透明的非常重要的一步"},{"start":8621.038,"end":8648.482,"text":"那我觉得既然走出这一步我觉得司法院过去反对现在接受但是我觉得你做我不敢讲半套可能你做了60分70分可是实际上有些部分你还是可以再往前走一部分不用那么画地制限可不可以请司法院再好好斟酌一下好吗好谢谢委员指教OK谢谢您谢谢好谢谢罗委员那接下来我们请吴思瑶委员发言"},{"start":8663.919,"end":8692.506,"text":"謝謝主席請王富密也請我們黃次長請王富密跟王次長委員長大家辛苦了我想立法院該審不審今天來自食惡果而司法院負責任的善後補救卻是在這裡要被為難要被究責"},{"start":8693.769,"end":8719.766,"text":"我呼籲藍白的委員 在野的委員們暴衝式的立法 修法發生在法庭直播的法院組織法上切莫不要再次的二度惡修把修法當兒戲這是我今天的破題喔 下一頁進入法庭直播的部分之前呢今天同樣也有汪小林委員提的法院組織法83條修正案"},{"start":8720.686,"end":8723.471,"text":"也就是偵查終結公開起訴書的書類公開範圍他要擴及不起訴處分書擴及還起訴處分書等等"},{"start":8731.394,"end":8750.577,"text":"我想當然提案的委員他可能認為就是要擴大司法的透明公開但是任何的透明公開資訊的揭露也都要適度為之不要讓司法人權在這些修法有失周延的思慮之下是為謀其利 鮮受其害的"},{"start":8751.218,"end":8776.557,"text":"所以說我終整讀了你們兩個部會單位司法院跟法務部的資訊你們對於法院組織法83條修正案也是持保留的態度對不對違反了無罪推定的原則恐怕會妨礙後續的犯罪偵查甚至也可能會觸犯到偵查不公開的原則司法法治委員會不是最重視偵查不公開嗎現在卻要惡修法律"},{"start":8780.92,"end":8809.877,"text":"自己去違反偵查不公開真的要三思而後行當然最重要的是捍衛司法人權我們在公開的範圍呢一定要考量訴訟程序參與者的名譽隱私權之保障我所說的這四大理由是不是都是司法院跟法務部對於這個修法持保留意見的主要的幾個部分是嗎有沒有要補充的部分"},{"start":8810.456,"end":8830.987,"text":"就83條部分我們是幾個疑慮點如同委員剛才所說明的好 謝謝次長的說明那我們下一頁所以說司法人權要捍衛透明公開有其界限透明公開真的不要適得其反立法院更要反求諸己立法院不要雙標"},{"start":8832.788,"end":8858.622,"text":"我們看看立法院自己有做到透明公開嗎還是立法院自己在修法的過程一再的黑箱呢自己在違反透明公開啊下一頁我不得不說這一屆的立法院惡例變成慣例了程序正義完全被踐踏這是我整理出來的這一會期喔這一屆應該我講這一屆期"},{"start":8861.824,"end":8888.962,"text":"光用禁覆二讀的方式快速的跳過委員會零討論就表決的法案有這麼多我要強調我從國會助理到現在國會的工作也真的是20餘年了禁覆二讀是議事規則授權的議事策略沒有錯但禁覆二讀有其前提就是第一個朝野有共識的議案"},{"start":8889.827,"end":8902.897,"text":"第二個有急迫性的議案而不是腐爛的在朝野沒有共識的議案每一個都透過表決 淨富二讀而淨富二讀也需要有配套因為委員會已經沒有討論了你後面的"},{"start":8906.079,"end":8924.024,"text":"韓院長啊立法院院長主持的最終表決前的那個最終的朝野協商就成為最重要也是唯一的討論條文的場域他必須逐條討論必須負責的審議必須理性的對話這是進覆二讀的當然的配套"},{"start":8925.051,"end":8953.141,"text":"可是這一屆立法院都沒有腐爛的進復二讀然後協商當天直接表決換言之等一下就表決現在協商是什麼就過水啊韓國瑜院長主持的潮語協商是沒有實質討論的是零討論只是過水而已所以這些惡果惡力都發生在法院組織法的法庭直播上更甚者表決前又送出再修正動議"},{"start":8954.822,"end":8976.003,"text":"所以這一次法院組織法法庭直播我在表決前看到的條文又被改了黑箱版本又被改了跟當初我們試圖理解的法案又不一樣了換言之這是二上加二既附二讀協商過水表決前是黑箱版本造成今天法庭直播這個法院組織法的"},{"start":8979.251,"end":9003.941,"text":"為得其利 先受其害而司法院努力的在撥胯網今天在這裡還要被在野黨的委員責難成這樣所以這是一個萬惡之源如果法院組織法當時尋程序在委員會好好最專業的司法法制委員會來討論重大的司法制度的變革我想你們也不用這麼麻煩後面去改那個直播辦法大家傷透腦筋如何撥胯網"},{"start":9006.212,"end":9030.349,"text":"所以下一頁我們就來看看立法院雙標在哪裡啊立法院該審查的其實是法案議案行政部門依據法案議案去制定的相關的執法辦法事實上原則上是受立院被查當然也可以改審查但是重點立法院該審查的是法案"},{"start":9031.86,"end":9051.219,"text":"而不是向法院組織法 法庭直播的部分直接禁負二讀直接快速的不協商就三讀表決碾壓還強制規定你們三個月內要上路當初國民法官法我們上路的準備期是多久兩年半"},{"start":9059.973,"end":9078.439,"text":"2020年的7月通過我們上路是2023年的1月1號兩年半的時間涉及重大司法制度的變革他要有充分的時間來研議制度的配套但是立法院審查快轉爆沖修法協商過水"},{"start":9080.41,"end":9106.084,"text":"然後表決黑箱強制通過了之後要你們三個月內趕快上路為快而快爆衝的立法院要司法院來承擔後果啊那我們來看看反拉這是反拉該審的法案不審現在呢立法院反而要來針對你們送出來的配套辦法要來改審查"},{"start":9107.256,"end":9132.215,"text":"這不就是完全亂了套嗎該審的不審然後現在來為難你們的實施辦法太過分了立法院自己的程序不正義自己踐踏了委員會的實質討論然後把受害者想方設法去補救的司法院現在下一頁還放話"},{"start":9134.079,"end":9150.504,"text":"不合倡議就威脅再來煽動司法院的預算嗎黃國昌委員說你們法庭直播的部分他不滿意你們現在波帕王的這個實施辦法他又再一次放話嗆聲要威脅凍結刪減你們的預算來反制"},{"start":9155.714,"end":9184.417,"text":"今天黃國昌委員就是法庭直播的始作俑者被社會踏法成這樣他不思悔改今天還在嗆說要把你們的這個辦法退回司法院然後他還要再修法院組織法這立法院真是怪了才化法不是這樣嗎自己為快而快爆衝的修法才化法然後呢出了包然後上會期修的才化法這會期再修一次"},{"start":9185.592,"end":9193.624,"text":"然後黃國昌現在一樣啊上會期修的法院組織法自己粗糙暴衝現在又要再回來這不是把修法當兒戲嗎"},{"start":9196.59,"end":9217.995,"text":"所以依據立法院職權實施法62條的規定如果相關的行政命令執法有違反抵觸法律確實立法院可以要求或廢止要求更正或廢止但是你們所送出來負責任的研議了三個多月的這個辦法有違逆法律嗎我們現在來檢視下一頁"},{"start":9220.609,"end":9234.226,"text":"到底Life跟Delay Life誰在抵觸法律呢藍白的委員自己說法反覆自己打臉自己啊這個是黃國昌委員626的黨團協商跟627的朝野協商他都說同樣的話"},{"start":9235.697,"end":9252.065,"text":"公開播送什麼時候是要Live沒有Live你也可以用Delay Live的方式去處理這種方式在外國實踐的例子還蠻多的這是黃國昌說的他當時自己同意Delay Live是直播的定義的方式之一"},{"start":9253.497,"end":9277.051,"text":"羅志強委員朝野協商他也說公開播送的直播還是有不太一樣的地方喔直播也算公開播送但是延遲直播也是一種透明公開的播送兩位委員的說法打臉自己請問你們的實施辦法哪裡有抵觸了立法院修法的母法呢並沒有啊在我看來所以下一頁"},{"start":9279.045,"end":9295.296,"text":"這是我們當初要撥破網的地方因為爆充式的法院組織法禁敷二讀違反了各司法的保障不利於事實的調查有違無罪推定的原則也會因為輿論的公審來影響相關訴訟當事人尤其是裁判者"},{"start":9295.856,"end":9320.492,"text":"的新政這都是我們司法院在制定實施辦法要撥破網的核心嘛對不對也是民間團體一直在說不可以這樣不可以這樣的時候你們是負責任在善後嘛下一頁所以我們來看條文喔你們的實施辦法裡面有針對禁止特寫保護案件當相關人的權益這何錯之有藍白的委員要反對嗎"},{"start":9322.25,"end":9333.835,"text":"還是他們認為要直播要放大再放大把每一個人的特徵拍得清清楚楚讓每一個人訴訟當事人都可能受到社會的肉搜"},{"start":9335.507,"end":9359.072,"text":"藍白的委員要反對什麼你們是保護案件相關人的權益所以才應該以單一鏡頭定向定焦拍攝不得特寫不得而且不應當拍攝國民法官對不對這是我們的原意合錯之有下一個我們也明定當事人對於法庭直播有抗告權就是為了捍衛司法人權尊重當事人的意願合錯之有"},{"start":9360.188,"end":9380.225,"text":"對不對 我們第八條修訂就是這個原理嘛再下一個可能這是在外黨委員說要退回的一個重要的條文喔就是對於LIFE或是DELAY LIFE我們撥帕邦是為了避免訴訟中的直接撥送來導致輿論的公審我們就法條論法條"},{"start":9382.318,"end":9410.777,"text":"你們12條是依據法院組織法所修正第90條來補充的對不對立法院修正的法院組織法自己就寫了最高法院大法庭等等等等等應以適當方式實施公開播送適當方式實施公開播送你們的實施辦法的第12條就是適當方式嘛何錯之有呢為什麼要為反對而反對呢最後一個"},{"start":9413.171,"end":9438.806,"text":"這個問題現在還沒有辦法解決雖然我們指定了播送的平台但是任意的剪輯還是很難去防範變造或剪輯而二中之二是立法院通過的90條他加了一項所謂的公開播送是錄音錄影不受90條之次的限制也就是他授權任何人都可以散佈都可以來做非目的性非正當目的性的"},{"start":9439.346,"end":9461.811,"text":"使用 這是惡中之惡 我們在保護他人是不是所以我支持你們我不知道這個實施辦法最終可能被退回吧可是我花了一點時間逐條去檢視我們的實施辦法我們是負責任的在保護司法人權再去彌補粗糙暴衝沒有配套的法庭直播造成的對於訴訟當事人的權利的損害"},{"start":9464.232,"end":9479.098,"text":"可能會被退回吧我想因為已經委員嗆聲放話要砍你們的預算要全部退回要再修法院組織法但是我們為所當為捍衛司法人權不分顏色最後一頁"},{"start":9480.322,"end":9508.659,"text":"我要再次來放鬆這一頁提案的黃國昌委員不折不扣的雙標當媒體對著他拍在他採訪的時候他說我討論我討厭有人拿著手機對我一直拍他是立法委員他反對有人拿著手機對他拍當有人對於他的孩子做出一些可能他認為是在肉搜的行為但事實上基於公共利益你的申報要誠實"},{"start":9510.029,"end":9530.203,"text":"對於他家人的一些質疑他反而就雙標的說你們不可以對我家人這樣他要保護他家人的隱私我都同意每個人要保護彼此的隱私但是呢黃國昌強推法庭直播逼迫受害者的隱私全部被揭露標準何在"},{"start":9531.794,"end":9550.38,"text":"標準何在立法院不能雙標我支持你們為所當為捍衛司法人權不分顏色我們要堅持下去好嗎也辛苦你們了你們的這個直播辦法是討論了三個多月一程序在公告然後再"},{"start":9551.673,"end":9579.024,"text":"比起立法院粗糙的禁覆二讀協商過水黑箱條文的表決你們在程序的正義上在條文的嚴謹度上都是立法院應當向你們學習的對象才對但是今天加害者譴責受害人善後的人要被立法院究責為難成這樣我呼籲現在的中央政府總預算還被delay沒辦法審查"},{"start":9580.905,"end":9602.654,"text":"如果未來能夠審查又要再一次像去年一樣二刪二砍司法預算就是要進行司法的報復我要再次譴責我們不應當重蹈覆轍大家加油謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳委員那我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9974.673,"end":9979.856,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續進行會議那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我先請我們司法院副秘書長好 請王副秘"},{"start":9995.45,"end":10017.457,"text":"委員好好 副秘書長好跟你討論一個判決案子這個在台灣社會對於打假球不管是棒球或者是籃球大家都深惡痛絕那非常不幸的在SBL在2023年的時候進行第二十屆的賽程"},{"start":10023.4,"end":10046.057,"text":"爆發了打假球的事件這個案子當然該辦就辦但是最近這個案子判決結果出來多名SBL的假球案它的判決基本上是可以看到它其實還有牽涉到很多的球員"},{"start":10047.918,"end":10073.505,"text":"但其中柯敏豪他是MVP球員他是犯罪所得178,000元判刑7年 他是判的最重另外有一位吳季穎他的犯罪所得129萬 緩刑5年他是在這個案子裡面拿到錢犯罪所得最高的"},{"start":10074.105,"end":10097.662,"text":"另外像陳品權他的犯罪所得7000元他拿最少但是他被判4年4個月然後有一位邱繼偉這個邱繼偉其實他是最有問題因為他是主頭他是地下主頭他的犯罪所得35000元也被判緩刑"},{"start":10098.922,"end":10124.792,"text":"這個案子出爐之後在運動圈引起了很多的討論大家覺得判刑的標準是什麼這個案子的判刑標準據說是因為其中有兩位他們當污點證人咬出其他的人所以他們被判緩刑但是"},{"start":10127.673,"end":10144.444,"text":"這個邱繼偉他本身呢是主頭而且呢這個這個吳季穎他又是犯罪所得最高的也許是他們兩個人去咬出其他人所以他們都被判這個"},{"start":10146.469,"end":10175.134,"text":"緩刑那所以像這種在這個社會在運動圈矚目的案件那其他的其他的球員他們不管他們拿到的金額是多少大概也都沒有判緩刑而且呢都判到4年起碼有的是大概3年到4年左右所以我想請問一下副秘書長像我們在整個的"},{"start":10177.374,"end":10201.279,"text":"這個良刑的時候如果單單只就說您有沒有去咬出其他的人但是主頭是罪有問題的罪有問題就被判緩刑那這代表什麼他以後再去搞一攤這一攤搞完了然後骨肉乾黏後這個風聲比較鬆了然後他再去搞一攤"},{"start":10202.745,"end":10228.959,"text":"反正他去被判緩刑所以這樣的案件會不會有爭議性請問一下副秘書長保護委員那個本院是執司司法行政就是我們沒有審審這個案那所以說這個案件裡面他的那個卷證跟裡面的這些事證到底呈現了什麼那個資料我們並不是審審法官所以我們無從置諱就是這個我們要尊重那個審判核心我們並不清楚裡面的"},{"start":10232.381,"end":10243.581,"text":"每一次问你们相关的案子你们都说这是个案要尊重成审法官就是因为个案你们不清楚但是我们在这边每一次指出来的"},{"start":10244.286,"end":10272.569,"text":"人民對於司法良心合不合理對於司法能不能夠信任其實就是在這些個案一一累積出來的所以我覺得在我們一直在講說當然司法改革現在聽起來像笑話司法改革震天架響喊了這麼多年我們也沒有看到司法有改革司法也沒有再貼近人民那甚至司法還被那個政治干預但是這個案子我要特別提醒司法院"},{"start":10273.85,"end":10301.849,"text":"這個是在 他不是政治性案子但是對於台灣社會大家對於打假球案件這麼深惡痛絕的狀況之下主頭判緩刑大家會覺得怎麼主頭還可以被判緩刑請問以後是不是是放縱還是包庇這些打假球案呢所以這一點是要特別提出來時間暫停一下我再請我們的保養部次長"},{"start":10305.994,"end":10326.713,"text":"等一下 鳳鳴長 劉卜委員好接下來要跟你們就教的這個在昨天其實在我們未還委員會有討論但是我覺得它蠻重要昨天未還委員會主要是要修法因為前一陣子在新北市有一個違反家暴令的男子"},{"start":10327.634,"end":10356.035,"text":"他被釋放之後立刻當街殺了他的太太跟他的小姨子那引起社會的嘩然所以怎麼可以就是違反保護令然後立刻去殺人但是呢這個案子引起大家比較高度的關注但是就在那個時間非常接近的時候其實台北市還有一個案子就是這個女公關她被割喉慘死"},{"start":10356.995,"end":10382.644,"text":"大家後來也才發現說她也是一樣她也是被家暴而且施暴者施暴者其實也是違反保護令然後回來就把那個女公關給當街割喉慘死所以我們就要去討論這個違反保護令的問題在昨天我們在委員會都有提到也就是"},{"start":10383.544,"end":10404.438,"text":"家暴的申請羈押率以及被羈押率都非常非常的低羈押率我記得大概就是5%上下而已那當然當時我們檢察司司長是說因為家暴案件他的探向非常非常多他的母數很大但是我現在要跟兩位討論的違反保護令那個鳳鳴爽保護令是法院發的吧"},{"start":10413.038,"end":10442.117,"text":"所以一般被家暴的人比如說夫妻吵架怎麼樣啪啪被打兩個耳光或怎麼樣你可能也拿不到保護令這種不容易對不對你保護令拿到保護令也是要有一定的標準比如說你要去驗傷然後他有一定的暴力行為或者還有一定長時間的施暴所以法院才會發給他保護令限制他的一些施暴者的行為"},{"start":10443.178,"end":10469.426,"text":"但是我剛才指的這個兩個例子是比較老實說它是比較極端例子它違反保護令之後還去殺人但是事實上在社會有很多的狀況是違反保護令之後繼續去騷擾違反保護令之後繼續去施暴違反保護令之後呢一再的違反保護令恃若無睹所以我要講"},{"start":10470.646,"end":10494.76,"text":"我們可不可以往一個方向去做討論如果違反保護令就應該構成羈押的條件否則的話它的成本很低嘛它速度違反保護令也無所謂啊它可能一直要等到說它真的有可能再去做什麼樣的暴力那種"},{"start":10495.64,"end":10515.945,"text":"违反到真的是很可能造成这个当事人受害者的这个他的什么生命财产的安全所以我的意思就是说以我们现在我们希望能够在保护保护这些富佑然后要降低家暴而且要让家暴者付出一定的代价"},{"start":10516.565,"end":10539.486,"text":"可是我們看到從2021年到2024年違反保護令的案件事實上是增加的而且增加的件數是非常多的所以我在想請問我們檢查系統我們的法院系統在違反保護令我認為刑度都過低了你看連續發生這兩個悲劇"},{"start":10542.368,"end":10561.551,"text":"是不是可以在違反保護力的狀況之下他就構成羈押條件你讓他押一下讓他付出代價阿伯每次都說你要考慮到他的心理他很容易暴怒他更容易什麼傷害你讓他羈押違反保護力你讓他羈押"},{"start":10562.857,"end":10581.582,"text":"讓他cool down讓他知道你違反保護令你要付出這樣的代價否則的話很多好幾次一而再 再而三的事法院保護令為無誤所以我想先請教市長這個部分有沒有可能我們經過什麼樣的方式去給他精進"},{"start":10582.57,"end":10609.634,"text":"各位報告我們羈押在刑訴法當然有特別的羈押的要件但是家暴法它為了保護這個保護令的這個有效性所以它家暴法對羈押要件它做了一個特別的處理它跟我們刑訴法不一樣所以換句話說你違反家暴法的保護法的令的話它基本上你反覆實施進一個反胃的狀態犯罪性重大它就創造一個新的一個羈押室友事實上家暴法在30條之一它是有做特別的處理的"},{"start":10610.074,"end":10635.147,"text":"就羈押要建議它做一個稍微鬆綁於刑訴法上的規範它其實是有做特別的規範所以你認為說如果我剛才講的就是說讓這個違反保護令讓它就應該構成羈押條件對 它犯罪嫌疑重大有反覆讓它沒有機會讓它一再的違反你的意思說就要去修這個家暴法不用修 家暴法30條之一現在就有特別的規範了它有不同刑訴的規範"},{"start":10636.147,"end":10654.77,"text":"他只要犯罪件重大反覆那如果說不用修法那就是你們第一線嘛檢察官也好或者法院也好那為什麼我們可以看到一再違反家暴令呢一再違反家暴令也沒有壓他然後就讓他放回去放回去之後呢他就開始去騷擾有的是怎麼敲門踹門破門而入怎麼去騷擾跟騷等等之類的或者再繼續施暴那嚴重的就是我講的"},{"start":10664.392,"end":10672.31,"text":"這都是今年的案例 直接當街殺人不是一宗 而是連續兩宗的事件"},{"start":10673.894,"end":10699.174,"text":"所以那個市長你還是覺得你們在檢查系統沒有什麼精進的辦法當然委員提到要不要羈押當然要個案他去決定我就說在法治工具上他是齊備的法治工具不會欠缺在個案上當然檢察官他去判斷我們就沒有辦法智慧但法律工具他是應該沒有問題的那請問一下副秘書長呢副秘書長看法如何"},{"start":10701.319,"end":10714.056,"text":"同意那個次長的意見次長沒有意見啦老家我講半天為什麼要請你講你們兩個都這樣講我認為違反加爆令就應該羈押啦我直接說你加爆令是隨便發的嗎"},{"start":10715.438,"end":10741.521,"text":"家暴令不是不能隨便發不是嗎報告委員因為現在在那個有關於那個羈押那個要件確實在那個家暴防治法裡頭他已經有做一個那個特別規定了那這個當然就是實務上怎麼做的問題可是就是說一律如果說完全不留下這種裁量那個空間違反那個家暴令就羈押的話他可能對於本來給你們裁量空間但是呢"},{"start":10742.202,"end":10760.729,"text":"但是留財糧空間的結果就發生像這樣的案例因為家暴的太陽太多了就是有些他可能那個侵害法益真的沒那麼重沒有錯因為檢察官的意思說家暴 我剛才就講嘛有的時候你可能怎麼夫妻吵架或短暫性或什麼"},{"start":10761.289,"end":10783.416,"text":"你還不容易拿到這個保護令因為拿到保護令它是有門檻的保護令是有門檻的我現在不是說你違反就是你家暴你就應該羈押而是你違反了保護令你違反保護令有給你一些這個限制然後這是法院發的保護令然後你還違反"},{"start":10784.795,"end":10812.011,"text":"就應該進行羈押我是這樣認為我不想再看到這樣的這種悲劇再發生是不是希望檢查系統也好或者法院系統也好看到我們違反保護令的案件節節升高那就代表是不是根本我們在司法上面沒有這個遏止的一個效果好不好"},{"start":10812.93,"end":10841.329,"text":"好希望我希望在法國部跟那個司法院能夠去做一些研擬好不好好謝謝好謝謝王委員那接下來是鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":10842.217,"end":10851.199,"text":"陳冠廷委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那接下來我們請林淑芬委員發言好 謝謝主席是不是請我們王副秘書長還有這個次長請王副秘還有次長委員好副秘早安 午安"},{"start":10871.52,"end":10881.292,"text":"因為我要諮詢的還沒開始聽到王委員剛才諮詢我突然想到加爆防治法第31條跟刑事訴訟法第114條兩個法的運用怎麼競合"},{"start":10887.625,"end":10913.354,"text":"你剛剛講的家暴防治法有得為羈押如果有必要羈押得為羈押可是遇到刑事訴訟法114條如果他申請拒保三年以下的刑期他申請拒保一定要給他交保這個是霸王條款所以當31條的家暴防治法31條遇到刑事訴訟法的第114條怎麼競合"},{"start":10917.35,"end":10930.234,"text":"這是因為剛才聽到你們的質詢我特別問的如果有加爆法的狀況它又符合修法114條的要件它還是不能夠擠壓還是有114條的適用"},{"start":10934.535,"end":10957.025,"text":"對啊 所以我跟你講真正的問題是卡在罷網條款是114條而我昨天在未還委員會就質詢過了這個治本的方法必須要把家暴房治法的這個違反保護違反家暴法的刑責要提高到5年以下才能夠解決刑事訴訟法114條的問題"},{"start":10960.766,"end":10987.95,"text":"而為什麼他必須要提高到五年以下是因為第一個家暴的這個犯罪人他已經是違了法律所禁止的事了第二次人家告訴你合法家暴保護令的時候是第二次告訴你而你還是無視於法律的存在你還繼續家暴所以這個普通傷害罪都五年以下了"},{"start":10989.011,"end":11006.505,"text":"這個違法一次違法兩次到第三次你還三年以下而三年以下會碰到刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法的這個三年以下如果被告申請拒保你們非給他交保不可不是嗎"},{"start":11009.32,"end":11035.29,"text":"原則上是他如果單純違反交暴法是但是我們交暴法他常伴隨著其他附隨的犯罪他違反交暴法其他犯罪他就不是三零下的罪但如果單純的呢單純的話就是委員現在我跟你講現在被押的剛才王委員質詢幾千件為什麼只有兩百多個被押因為那些人就是刑事訴訟法第114條裡面的但書的符合的就是累犯有犯罪習慣等等的"},{"start":11036.07,"end":11045.332,"text":"如果沒有的話其實是無法押的所以我再說一次土城當街殺人的信義計劃區馬上殺人的違反保護令罪馬上殺人的都是第一次其實要押完全不可能押不是檢察官的問題而已也不是法官的問題是我們法律的工具不夠的問題"},{"start":11060.996,"end":11064.821,"text":"責任在我們的法律出了問題好嗎 好市長請回我不是要問你抱歉喔我今天不是要問這個題目我想我已經問三遍國民法官審判的事情了今天終於找了一個聽說找了一個業務懲判單位的法官來了"},{"start":11082.125,"end":11105.815,"text":"上個禮拜呢上個禮拜我問你副秘書長昨天我問刑事庭庭長我問說你舉個例子告訴我什麼是什麼樣的案件案情是符合國民法官法第六條第一項第四款所說的被告認罪了經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行國民參審的為適當的情形來"},{"start":11112.017,"end":11117.534,"text":"再說一次今天有貝爾來了上一個上個禮拜你旁邊那個法官姓什麼"},{"start":11118.476,"end":11148.196,"text":"我又忘了你上次的呂法官上來然後我說這個例外可以不行這個國民法官參審的例外你舉個例子給我聽他說有涉及到生命法益的案子上個禮拜副秘書長還有你的呂法官這樣子回答我根本就是在胡說八道我再問你的是不適用國民法官的情形他回答我的是"},{"start":11149.616,"end":11174.646,"text":"故意犯罪因而发生死亡结果要适用国民法官法这个是答非所问所以我再问一次你们昨天刑事厅厅长我再问他第二遍他回答我说被告认罪对于刑度及证据调查没有意见检察官及辩护人都认为不用国民法官为适当"},{"start":11176.126,"end":11203.439,"text":"這種說法有回答跟沒有回答是一樣的所以在這種狀況裡面根本就是把條文的內容再簡單的講一遍而已你們司法院自己把條文訂的這樣子看起來高深莫測沒有人可以解讀得出來你們到底是在講什麼你們法官也不用所以要你們舉例你們一個例子從上個禮拜的你到昨天的廳長一個例子都舉不出來"},{"start":11204.219,"end":11207.981,"text":"昨天給我的書面你們下班以前給了我一份書面好像六頁還是幾頁 六頁這個書面裡面也沒有回答出什麼條件 什麼例子是適用第六條第一項第四款的通通都沒有所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":11228.123,"end":11239.669,"text":"你可不可以再有備而來的第三次了質詢第三次了再講一次第六條第一項第四款所講的大概例子是什麼樣子可不可以再講一遍好來啊"},{"start":11242.886,"end":11249.928,"text":"報告委員 針對實務上有關第六條第一項第四款的相關適用情形因為我們現在有在做行銷評估其實只要轉軌的話都有進行相關裁定書的公告我們透過海撈所有的裁定書之後進行分析大致上分析出有兩種類型一種類型是說原則上被告認罪被害人的家屬這邊也同意給被告清醒的機會大家也同意轉軌這種情況下會所謂的大家也同意轉軌大家是誰"},{"start":11271.992,"end":11298.67,"text":"大家指的意思是說檢察官沒意見通常被告辯護人會申請要轉軌檢察官沒有意見這個情況下通常有可能會轉軌但是還有另外一種類型他們認為考量到說是國民法官法基本上是要實現所謂的公共利益也就是說所謂的反映國民的法感情有量刑上的考量所以即便是在有這樣一個情形下他還是覺得說還是要讓國民法官來量刑你講的第二種狀況等於這個法條這一款可以廢掉"},{"start":11302.453,"end":11321.07,"text":"你講的這個狀況第四款可以廢掉了因為大概像實務上分析大概兩種運作情形是這樣子我叫你舉例子不是叫你說你去海撈一下你這個講的很像是說未來的試用基準要這樣子定不是不是這個委員因為我們這個部分是分析全國裁定的結果"},{"start":11321.75,"end":11335.195,"text":"所以說是能夠實施反應現況的所以你的第一種是是講可以不適用嘛第二種是講不能適用嘛因為目前就是有寬延兩種標準因為抗告的情形比較少所以說還不知道說這個高院這邊的對於這樣一個適用基準的看法"},{"start":11337.356,"end":11358.317,"text":"現在我不再講這個由此可知從第一次上個禮拜第二次昨天的廳長到現在第三次你們到立法院來叫你們舉一個例子你現在跟我講說你去海拉的所有的裁定以後發現有這幾種現象但我現在問你說你舉一個你們定這個條文定成這個樣子你們想像的到底是什麼這個跟"},{"start":11360.058,"end":11381.288,"text":"既有的已經做成才訂的不一樣的兩件事喔你們訂這個條文條文是你們訂的然後呢你舉一個例子來跟我說你們認為要適用這一款的例子是什麼案情是什麼條件事才會符合你的條文所說的你們到現在第三次了講不出來"},{"start":11382.529,"end":11402.605,"text":"昨天你們給我的書面資料第四頁說成效評估委員會也建議你們要新增裁定不行國民法官的適用基準你連什麼樣的案子的類型可能是符合這第四款的你三次講不出來然後你們的成效評估委員會要你們訂基準我看你們也根本訂不出來因為連例子都說不出來能夠訂什麼基準"},{"start":11411.565,"end":11422.089,"text":"其實在國民法官法第六條立法理由就講得很清楚說原則上要對量刑沒有重大爭議只不過對於量刑有沒有重大爭議這件事情到底要到什麼樣的量刑有沒有爭議是要結果以後了要結果以後現在是在講還沒有審判以前我要申請不是用國民法官參審一個是審判之前就要符合資格可以不審判你現在回答我說量刑是審判以後"},{"start":11438.775,"end":11452.705,"text":"所以你現在是在說什麼因為有關於這個量刑的部分當然是最後一個法院認定的結果可是在準備程序的時候呢在所謂的國民法官制度下呢原則上檢察官跟辯護人員檢察官這邊會有進行求刑的動作所以會針對這個部分來進行相關的討論檢察官求刑跟量刑結果傷害國民要符合國民感情這是兩個程序不同的階段耶"},{"start":11460.888,"end":11479.082,"text":"然後現在講跟你講第六條第一項第四款舉一個例子告訴我你們想像的這個符合可以例外的條款的案子舉不出來到現在舉不出來然後屢屢到這裡來都胡說八道上一次的呂法官昨天的廳長好 算了我現在再問你喔"},{"start":11480.023,"end":11506.152,"text":"我舉一個例子你們都沒有看見這個問題這麼嚴重嗎當初做改革的時候國民法官法通過的時候我們以為是高舉著進步的這個高期大期可是這樣運作下來我就告訴你們宇宙新廠是要提醒你們真的有很多制度面執行下來有很多缺失和問題而你們都不願意承認不願意看到那我再舉一個例子好了"},{"start":11507.168,"end":11530.604,"text":"前一陣子有一個發生清潔隊員侵占電鍋被起訴貪污的罪這種案子的類型很多出犯的條文都是貪污治罪條例第四條第一項第一款侵占公有物罪實際上事實上侵占清潔隊員侵占一個人沒有他的電鍋但是法定刑期多少"},{"start":11533.125,"end":11543.058,"text":"10年以上 罪很重這些被告通通就認罪了這時候要不要適用國民法官法 明年起明年起是需要的"},{"start":11544.714,"end":11565.646,"text":"認罪了親戰的東西這麼小依照國民法官法第五條的規定原則上適用好 你不要講我現在再提醒你是適用國民法官法但是這些清潔隊隊員都是社會經濟的弱者他們不懂法律一犯罪就犯了十年以上有期徒刑的罪而且他們就會立刻認罪輿論甚至認為不應該起訴的"},{"start":11570.208,"end":11597.266,"text":"你要講國民感情國民感情甚至會認為不應該起訴的結果呢明年起要適用了要適用國民法官法冗長的程序審理你們自己法官都受不了國民法官反省的程序所以才會對辦理國民參審的法官減分案結果你們減分案當事人程序冗長飽受折磨"},{"start":11600.568,"end":11620.362,"text":"當事人都認罪了你們他剛剛講的或許第六條第一項第四款他講的第一個條件人家受害者家屬也願意原諒他了受害者家屬也認為說不要再國民參審了可是你們都還要堅持要人家陪你們玩下去玩一出國民參審的法庭大戲不可要人民怎麼信賴你們司法"},{"start":11626.637,"end":11651.575,"text":"這個未來怎麼辦 十年以上 他也是適用國民法官法的這一種 到現在 你們都還是認為說 一定要陪你們審到完嗎報告委員 這當然是原則上依照國民法第五條的規定符合相關的規定 故意犯罪致人於死 或第二階段十年以上有徒刑當然就是原則上要適用 但是當然 個案情況下有可能會依照第六條的依照案件的情況 第六條哪一款"},{"start":11652.902,"end":11674.33,"text":"如果是非常複雜的情形的話當然有可能是有第三款的繁雜性條款第四款可不可以第四款的部分尤其涉及到是有依照立法理由要必須量刑沒有爭議那在目前的實務上的話它量刑會有爭議嗎清潔隊隊員欠佔一個破電鍋人家國民的感情是希望你連起訴都不要啦"},{"start":11676.704,"end":11692.336,"text":"委員我想補充一下因為委員舉的這個例子他不是國民法官他出問題不是在國民法官這邊的設計而是說對於貪污自罪條例對於這些財務非常輕微的我們的司法刑事政策要怎麼處理"},{"start":11693.197,"end":11719.476,"text":"那這個部分法務部事實上他們也都一直很加緊的就是在做了很多的到現在沒有改變以前你不要跟我講法務部不要再講為稅不起訴你不要跟我講這個到現在沒有100%剔除以前不要講這個事實上我現在就是在跟你講國民法官法你明年起十年以上的重罪通通都要改國民法官審理"},{"start":11721.077,"end":11743.226,"text":"現在清潔隊侵占一個電鍋就是十年以上貪污的罪好 我現在再跟你講另外一個問題昨天你們廳長在這裡答詢他說怎麼可以讓被告有選擇要不要適用國民法官的權利被告沒有選擇權現在我要講了"},{"start":11746.974,"end":11762.632,"text":"看就是說第六條第一項第四款喔是我們決定的啦不是你被告可以申請的啦你們不斷高舉著刑事訴訟是以被告為主體才改良適當事人進行主義同時還要發現真實在這種狀況裡面啦"},{"start":11767.603,"end":11777.7,"text":"為什麼作為刑事訴訟的主體對於要適用什麼樣的程序會沒有選擇權你們廳長的言論代表你們司法院嗎你們說"},{"start":11781.809,"end":11797.987,"text":"刑事訴訟的主體是這個被告當然是主體刑事訴訟制度要分成兩部分用一般程序的就說被告是訴訟主體用國民法官法的就說被告不是訴訟主體那被告不是訴訟主體難道是客體嗎是讓你們任你們隨便"},{"start":11800.97,"end":11822.327,"text":"予取予求任你們宰割的課題嗎你們自己都不會覺得矛盾嗎一下子說被告是訴訟的主體然後昨天廳長說被告沒有選擇程序的權利你們這樣子搞他是代表你們司法院嗎這樣子有辦法讓人民信服你們一下子這樣子 一下子那樣子到底被告是不是訴訟的主體昨天廳長這樣講他沒有選擇進行什麼樣程序的權利"},{"start":11831.909,"end":11853.591,"text":"他是代表你們司法院嗎那報告委因為這個部分基本上被告有沒有選擇權這個事情基本上在國民法官法立法過程中就已經有討論過很多了那後來決定沒有選擇權的原因是因為考量在目前有採取所謂這個選擇權的國家對於國民參審的一個部分其實案件都非常的少"},{"start":11854.051,"end":11873.338,"text":"那其實就會失去了那你第六條第一項第四款是什麼一回事你就是要反映國民法第六條的例外條款是什麼一回事第六條的一個情況呢基本上是原則上適用國民法官法的前提下呢謹慎的所以假如適用國民法不請國民法官審判的門開得很小耶"},{"start":11876.294,"end":11896.523,"text":"他的門開得很小就第六條第一項的幾個條件而已那我也沒有叫你打開我也沒有反對國民法官訴訟的審理我現在講的是說你訂了第六條第一項的可以例外的條款而你們的門人家法律明明法律所許可你們這個門就給他關起來"},{"start":11899.278,"end":11916.356,"text":"然後他跟人家講說你沒有選擇的權利就第六條第一項可以例外許可的狀況當事人有沒有選擇的權利有沒有蛤 有沒有報告委員 依照目前第六條的一個設計呢基本上被告是沒有選擇權的"},{"start":11918.482,"end":11924.187,"text":"我在講例外的條款例外的條款所以你們整個刑事審判的體系是分成兩個架構"},{"start":11931.724,"end":11954.175,"text":"所以怎麼樣國民法官法就剝奪了他的訴訟主體的位置了報告委員那個有關於被告是不是訴訟主體現在你們今天在這裡答詢的昨天講一個樣子今天講一個樣子明天還會再講一個樣子所以今天為什麼人家對你們司法制度上連制度上都沒有辦法信賴因為你們在這裡亂說嘛好我現在在講增進人民對司法的信賴"},{"start":11955.458,"end":11978.42,"text":"你要人家的對你們信賴方法很多你們法官要做出正確的判斷法官要像個法官不要幫助人犯脫逃一個中文治安兩個高院的法官一個還是庭長庭長到現在都多久了你們司法院給我們什麼交代"},{"start":11982.371,"end":11996.718,"text":"我沒有在講這個很認真我現在跟你講說要推國民法官法你們就要把制度弄好要好好的弄弄好所以你們為什麼人家就那麼討厭你我舉一個例子"},{"start":11998.018,"end":12025.744,"text":"我以前質詢過我們在講說為什麼曾經我們在曾經我們辦公室因為工作需要上網查詢了一件判決書要查詢台北地方法院行政訴訟有關飲水法事件的判決判決日期在111年結果查不到在你們判決系統查不到我們去詢問司法院司法院了解的結果是當時系統沒有上傳成功"},{"start":12026.904,"end":12048.069,"text":"所以裁判書的重要是在於透過裁判書的公開的機制要來監督法官的裁判是否公正和妥適要保障人民的權利確保法院是不是有公平審判除了兒少 性侵 國家機密制裁法其實所有全部都會在裁判書系統上公開 對吧好"},{"start":12050.953,"end":12069.93,"text":"可是我們查詢這件無關乎不能公開的也非屬裁判書遮隱原則的在海量的判決當中就是剛好撈到沒有上傳的怎麼會這麼巧呢怎麼會這麼巧呢我就發現一個個案抱歉在我的手機上我會拿出來看一下"},{"start":12073.595,"end":12088.546,"text":"好再請林委員要掌握時間我們已經按鈴六次了因為您的這個質詢問題很重要所以就是最後我是最後一個對也是希望最後可以在兩分鐘之內結束謝謝好來媒體報導這個前幾天的報導"},{"start":12096.83,"end":12113.924,"text":"25年11月12號17年前姐弟戀談分手 勒死他這次女友想分手 再勒斃他恐怖情人收押結果就有人來告訴我們了17年前的當事人的案件"},{"start":12115.441,"end":12132.101,"text":"他判刑18年但很多人想說 欸 這累犯欸而且顯然他的行為相當人格上有異常人家要跟他分手就勒避他兩次了而且現在假釋期間還未滿就再勒避另外一個女朋友然後我們就想說 當事人"},{"start":12133.923,"end":12149.732,"text":"我們就告訴我們說你知道這個18年前判決這一個理性男子18年的法官是誰你知道嗎這個完全沒有涉及不能公開喔這一個法官叫什麼名字你知道嗎查詢不到"},{"start":12154.099,"end":12171.155,"text":"我們查詢了 查詢不到當事人有來陳情告訴我們18年前的案件查詢不到這個案件 你知道為什麼嗎因為這個法官現在是司法院的高官我就不要講了 昨天有在現場的司法院的高官"},{"start":12175.39,"end":12184.274,"text":"怕人家查詢到這樣的案子名譽不好所以就讓我們查詢不到你知道嗎我現在其實不是要講這個個案啦我現在是要告訴你們"},{"start":12193.174,"end":12212.084,"text":"你們從這裡這個就是為什麼司法失去人民信任的主要核心你們還可以利用權力為高官把他的判決書不名譽的不符合國民感情的不符合社會期待的遮掩起來"},{"start":12213.691,"end":12221.057,"text":"違法的遮掩起來司法院的高官你自己回去看我剛剛跟你講了什麼案件日期報導媒體報導的我現在再問你"},{"start":12226.531,"end":12236.441,"text":"我想那個原因應該是有一些誤解司法院絕對不可能沒有誤解當事人的朋友來陳情然後他們就說是某個高官判決現在我們去查詢 查詢不到"},{"start":12246.491,"end":12257.044,"text":"本辦公室去查詢 查詢不到好 這不是我今天要質詢的主題我是說司法的官真敗壞就是這樣子我現在問你國民法官案件的證據調查你們書面報告給我的書面報告第二頁說有簡便雙方向法官說明證據的證明力我問你"},{"start":12265.815,"end":12270.699,"text":"在說明這個證據證明力的時候不就是會講到證據的內容嗎沒有講到證據的內容是要怎麼跟法官說明這個證據需要調查不講內容法官說沒有調查必要性就不調查了嗎講了內容請問法官不就預斷了嗎所以你父子妻女啊你如果怎麼做都不對啊"},{"start":12292.357,"end":12316.158,"text":"講內容也不行 不講內容也不行司法院這樣子父子妻離你都不覺得這個制度有問題嗎準備程序證據調查的申請由陳審的法官去負責要不要受理這個證據調查決定要不要證據調查不講內容跟講內容都不對啊我再問你 這樣子行嗎你說要回答 讓你回答"},{"start":12317.666,"end":12341.102,"text":"來 你來講委員 其實您提示的這個就是一個證據開示的那個制度那它就是這樣子運作的這個不是只有在怎麼這樣子運作 你昨天沒有來國民法由陳審的法官去負責國民法官的證據調查方式如果是號稱事先不知悉案件內容的法官去負責"},{"start":12342.717,"end":12354.05,"text":"完全都不知道 那人家來請你做證據調查你簡直叫法官 這個法官他都不知道案情也不知道證據的關聯性 也不知道內容的話要嘛摸黑審理 要嘛瞎子摸象"},{"start":12356.072,"end":12371.806,"text":"要嘛就是法官已經預斷他看了他就是要預斷嘛要嘛他就什麼都搞不清楚不管他是產生預斷或者是什麼都搞不清楚因此而做成的證據要調查或不調查你們都不覺得這樣子的制度設計有問題嗎"},{"start":12377.07,"end":12383.071,"text":"為什麼國民法官法第44條可以規定關於羈押的決定是由另一組法官處理而證據調查的決定卻不能夠比照辦理呢你們司法院都會講法律講求證據結果你們法官法的案件對於證據的調查要嘛太嚴格要嘛又太寬鬆寬鬆就算了如果採一個嚴格的標準"},{"start":12401.815,"end":12412.71,"text":"如果不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴之後還不能改判現在你知道法官都不知道案情內容那申請證據調查他怎麼判斷"},{"start":12417.316,"end":12422.52,"text":"所以這個證據是篩選過的呈現給國民法官看的證據可以再更簡短 對 因為我們已經給你很多時間了好 謝謝 抱歉 我講一下因為這個案件真的比較複雜呈現給國民法官看我們還有下一次的機會 麻煩一分鐘呈現給國民法官看的證據是篩選過的由號稱不知案情的陳審法官決定的"},{"start":12439.972,"end":12468.828,"text":"而這樣的證據是篩選過的給國民法官看判決會公平嗎而且一審的判決到二審上訴之後法官不能改判耶不能改判耶然後你們不准人家救濟不准 如果你法官證據調查下不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴以後還不能改判這樣子的司法制度不是草菅人命嗎而且"},{"start":12469.769,"end":12474.701,"text":"國民法官審的都是重罪重罪 這個問題這麼多你們不覺得這個問題有問題嗎"},{"start":12480.254,"end":12500.738,"text":"報告委員 這邊簡單的回應一下委員的意見回應一下委員的問題第一個有關於證據裁定的問題基本上你說要照昨天給我的書面資料來回答就不用了不是這樣 原則上應該說在準備程序的時候為了要申請調查證據本身並不會去朗讀相關的證據的內容給對方你不要再這麼亂講了基本上只會依照他想要申請調查的證據所要預證明的那個代證事實跟"},{"start":12507.619,"end":12508.683,"text":"這個證據的證明沒有講內容法官怎麼知道要他的必要性"},{"start":12514.028,"end":12538.093,"text":"在哪裡講的內容以後不產生預斷嗎但我再問你什麼叫行政違卷行政違卷是稍微你有聽過行政違卷嗎我我我最後一題而已最後一個我兩分鐘抱歉不是我們今天已經行政違卷因為我們還會安排可是後面沒有人我只有兩分鐘沒有我們今天已經真的時間稍微真的求求你我只有兩分鐘我最後"},{"start":12538.413,"end":12550.381,"text":"行政委卷最後一個行政委員趕快回答行政委卷 昭緯我想你也沒聽過他在國民法官法施行細則第136條第4項意思是法院去函查 函調回來的資料這個資料要編入行政委卷連副秘書長都沒有聽過為什麼這樣設計一定是因為說不要讓法官產生預斷這個叫做掩耳盜鈴"},{"start":12565.251,"end":12588.66,"text":"法院去含查 含調回來的資料送到法院法官第一個看到法官看到以後才會批示這個資料要編入行政委卷你們掩耳盜鈴你們法官明明看到了故意講一個名詞叫做行政委卷然後再欺騙人民說法官沒有看到喔"},{"start":12589.48,"end":12599.426,"text":"你們在說什麼 這樣子能夠增進國民對司法的信賴嗎你們說國民法官的案件法官都沒有看到 不會預斷誰相信"},{"start":12602.995,"end":12630.115,"text":"報告委員有關行政委卷那相關於審判卷中喔那審判卷中只有編入審判卷中法官才會看那行政委卷的話我們會把它命中起來行政委卷就是交付到法官桌上然後要交付他交付到行政委卷法官你可以用道德約束法官不會翻開看如果行政委卷的資料只有一頁一頁就看光光如果是一堆他說我不敢翻開看你知道他有沒有翻開看有沒有翻開看不知道"},{"start":12631.056,"end":12649.306,"text":"行政委員函查回來資料就寄到法院就是送到法官的桌上去批示放到行政委員我看過真正的卷中我想對今天這個林委員其實提的很多的意見都非常重要我請司法院回去要好好的言行"},{"start":12649.446,"end":12665.85,"text":"但是副秘書長都沒有講半句話我現在在語重心長這樣講要推國民法官法你就把制度好好的設計理論面利益良善但執行起來存在這麼多的問題你們如果毫無反應還是本位主義你們都不願意思考和檢討犧牲當事人的權利"},{"start":12668.191,"end":12685.787,"text":"再度破壞人民對司法的信任啦好謝謝林委員因為這個我想這個部分的話就之後再講了因為國民法官法的第六條的部分正好本席其實也提出了相關的修正案那麼很快大家就可以看到本席修正案就完全就是他也不只是第六條啦對還有很多的問題但是確實在第六條的部分的話"},{"start":12691.551,"end":12712.884,"text":"這個明明國民法官法的目的就是希望能夠對於重要的案子能夠召開國民法庭可是事實上在執行起來的時候變得很多都是不執行這的確是很多的問題所以也謝謝林委員今天的指教很多是在破壞國民法官的基本精神沒錯你們這個換一組法官來處理程序問題受理證據調查的決定與否"},{"start":12718.587,"end":12747.686,"text":"那個不成審的法官可以完整的看到卷宗他可以知道因果他可以知道這個到底要不要准他調查你們卻讓一個什麼都不知情的法官成審的法官去處理這個問題這樣子對嗎然後你們在羈押的時候就換另一組法官了為什麼在證據調查上面不用換一組法官呢好 謝謝李委員我想這個問題真的很大那麼我們之後我們市委會會再安排相關的國民法官的專題報告"},{"start":12748.727,"end":12760.446,"text":"副秘書長謝謝今天這個秘書長不要這樣子強害現在正在進行國民法官程序審判的這些當事人的權利好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":12764.954,"end":12785.852,"text":"接下来蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员不在那么我们今天所有登记发言的委员都已经发言完毕了询答结束那委员执行时候要求的提供相关资料或已书面答复者就请相关机关尽速送交个别委员以及本会好那么我们今天的这个询答以及报告都已经完毕了那么"},{"start":12788.167,"end":12802.035,"text":"就是議程討論事項第一到第四案報告及詢答完畢那我們決議就是要另定期繼續審查那本次會議就進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":12814.686,"end":12820.832,"text":"好好"}]}},{"id":"165713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91375a79d478cf7e11f50d730950bdd7c8a8603fab3ff6def273cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:55:15 - 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比如說我們有雙部長會議我們必須要有績效的一個評估"},{"start":238.942,"end":260.007,"text":"到底我們做了之後我們的評估我們的KPI指數有沒有達到那我們才可以來做滾動式的一個檢討這是非常重要的接下來本校請問台美談判總統先生之前說了一句話他說就差鄰門一角這個鄰門一角到底是哪一角請教"},{"start":262.996,"end":288.872,"text":"應該說台美的有關於關稅談判在技術性的磋商都已經有結果了那因為這個涉及到有結果了那什麼時候會公佈呢有一個版本了有一個版本還沒有簽但是因為美國它涉及到還有232這個條款因為我們台灣的半導體直通訊跟美國之間的關係所以總統先生所說的只差你們一腳到底是差哪一腳 請說說明"},{"start":290.512,"end":292.323,"text":"就是川普總統的決定啊"},{"start":294.042,"end":322.458,"text":"就是因為他很多事情要到他那邊去他做最後的決定不然我們跟這個USTR跟這個商務部財政部他們的部長首長都談了大家都很滿意他們對台灣的方案基本上是支持的因為外交部是執行外交政策的一個大總管因為總統先生也這麼說了只差你們一腳那你剛剛回答是說這個一腳就是川普他點頭跟不點頭是不是如此"},{"start":324.299,"end":349.929,"text":"所以他會在這個既有的方案上會不會做什麼加減目前因為大家一直期待到底我們談的內容是什麼到底方向是什麼民眾還不知所以在這樣的情況之下您剛才回答是說目前我們跟美方談的大概都已經抵定就等川普這一些的計畫都已經抵定就等川普點頭不點頭有沒有拍板定案是不是如此"},{"start":350.709,"end":356.292,"text":"本席的解讀可以如此嗎最後我們談判的內容是不是已經有一個方向了有確定這個方向而就待川普決定不決定是不是如此獨統委員講就在這個階段就在這個階段請教"},{"start":372.212,"end":381.259,"text":"這個美國媒體也暴露喔台美的關稅貿易談判台灣要仿效喔韓國跟日本喔3500億到5500億喔不管是KPI還是人口數我們的比例跟他們差倍有兩倍至五倍那如果真的成如美國的媒體所說的那本席要請教部長是真的嗎你剛才說已經確認喔是真的嗎是我們要投資美方的3500億到"},{"start":402.014,"end":407.118,"text":"這個5500億日韓的這個部分是不是不是這個意思我是說有一個方案台美的這個技術性的磋商在這個部長不要叫你到旁邊去我請問因為你是外交部長是很重要的在這一次談判當中請問部長是不是美方要求我們在日韓3500億到5500億的美元的一個對美投資我們就是在這個中間我們有沒有這個方向有沒有這個答應"},{"start":432.247,"end":456.886,"text":"因為主談者是鄭麗君副院長然後是行政院經貿談判辦公室我們外交部是參與期間 但這個還是要由他們來對外發言你是主管外交 你剛剛信誓旦旦告訴本席說你的方向都已經確認就待川普同不同意拍不拍板定案本席要告訴你 因為外交部長的角色太重要了"},{"start":457.566,"end":469.737,"text":"美國想要利用關稅讓台灣付出用交易的這個邏輯來談判這個是非常明顯的所以本席才會請教你是不是就在這個數字當中要求我們台灣必須要這樣投資美國是不是"},{"start":476.489,"end":494.847,"text":"因為我們有談判的團隊 站在外交部就是怎麼樣把台美關係能夠發展的好就是美國優先 台灣也優先美國偉大 台灣也偉大創造雙贏 就是我外交部的角色至於說投資不是絕對數據怎麼樣投資美國可以壯大台灣對"},{"start":498.05,"end":502.472,"text":"就是說你這一句就重點了喔因為你是外交部長喔因為目前大家看到是以教育式的邏輯來做談判所以堅持我們不能當PANA我們也不能只有當提款機怎麼樣鞏固台灣的這個立場產業食安我們不能把我們的產業把我們的食安的風險來作為談判的籌碼這你應該"},{"start":525.2,"end":550.163,"text":"會認同嗎 這個總統還有談判團隊都有講包括一些優先的原則所以本期還是要建議我們一定要堅持在自主跟對等的情況上讓台灣的立場是站得住的而且是維護台灣的產業維護台灣的安全 維護人民的食安是 這也是我們共同的目標 我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"165720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913fed9f8ed476e10a4f94607883e6102ae8603fab3ff6def2710497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:12:31 - 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智障午安是對 午安我想要跟你談一下關於今天的議題我們辦公室一直在這個議題上做的研究其實是從閱讀面切入我們來看一下其實已經有非常多專家學者提出來說當我們用越多的網路而我們的腦神經就會越習慣網路破碎的 然後片斷的甚至是影音動態的但是靜態閱讀它其實是需要安靜的穩定的神經迴路所以其實差別非常非常大"},{"start":33.823,"end":54.444,"text":"很多的老師、專家、學者甚至像黃哲斌他是在網路上長期的新聞觀察者、評論家他一直在提醒很多的家長要注意這個事情那對於家長來說當然他們有責任然後孩子們也需要在家長的協助底下開始學習閱讀但是我們在教育部這邊我們到底還能夠做哪些事情我們其實想要跟教育部這邊來持續討論"},{"start":55.825,"end":79.261,"text":"再来那接下来有另外一个研究其实是台师大接受我们国家的委托长时间针对三到五岁的小孩使用3C的习惯来做调查跟研究结果发现现在在2022年他们的公告数字说台湾的小孩在三到五岁每一天用3C的时间已经来到两个小时这是2022年的数字我相信如果现在去看2024或是2023"},{"start":85.905,"end":109.247,"text":"回應我剛剛說的當我們網路用的越長資訊越片段然後越動態我們越難安靜的閱讀而孩子不能安靜的閱讀進到校園會發生什麼情況呢就是沒有辦法進入學術性科目的學習對不對我們沒有辦法反過來要求老師說你每一堂課國英術色字全部都用影片全部都用動畫全部都講笑話來教小孩"},{"start":109.707,"end":130.694,"text":"从来都不是这样所以对于现场的老师来说他们感觉到的困境是孩子们越来越难安静孩子们越来越学不会稳定所以也导致很多师生的冲突课堂经营的困难所以我们一直拜托教育部用阅读对抗3C这件事情下一张所以我在总咨询的时候也拜托过院长拜托过教育部长"},{"start":131.57,"end":151.762,"text":"我知道你們做了很多事情讓我把這邊講完我們要感謝教育部在我們辦公室極力的呼籲也很多專家學者提出呼籲教育部已經先到學前階段你們做了努力我要先公開感謝你們你們說在114年到117學年度我們要在學前教育階段推出有系統的閱讀計畫"},{"start":153.423,"end":167.9,"text":"協助現場的幼教老師家長跟孩子我們從閱讀切入看起來不是直接對抗3C但是我們培養另外一個正向的能力這個真的非常非常非常感謝教育部那我們看到你們的"},{"start":168.16,"end":168.18,"text":"好"},{"start":189.589,"end":200.342,"text":"因为看起来钱给了可是现场我认为很多幼教老师在看到这些钱他们可能不知道怎么选书或者是有了书不知道怎么跟孩子做阅读的课程计划"},{"start":204.586,"end":232.953,"text":"謝謝你們我們當時提了幼教法的修法其實我分三個階段第11條我要談的是目標我們在幼教法裡面我希望加入建立幼兒閱讀興趣第12條的版本我說持續提供圖書跟閱讀的相關資源第32條我希望我們在空間上也給予幼兒園支持這個是我自己的修法版本當然希望後續委員會有機會討論也希望教育部也許在修法未完成之前我們可以政策先行好不好"},{"start":234.054,"end":259.916,"text":"好 時間有限 我自己說 不好意思啦好 再來國中小的部分我們因為跟樂推老師有非常多的合作全台灣有非常多樂推老師之前我們辦公室辦了全台灣的公開座談非常感謝教育部你們以前都是一年一年計畫你們後來因應樂推老師的需求改成兩年計畫真的很棒 謝謝你們現在有老師問說對於表現優良的閱讀學校跟樂推老師可不可以給予三年計畫然後去排除掉一些你們"},{"start":260.396,"end":286.97,"text":"要擔心的防避機制這個我們再來討論好不好好 市長你都說好好 我們再來討論我們會再持續演繹我們會再跟你們討論好 最後一趟月推老師其實很多學校越來越多人發現月推老師原來真的會教閱讀而且那個教的閱讀是真的讓小孩可以學會閱讀然後就會變得比較安靜變得比較穩定學術性科目也會變好那也感謝地方政府跟中央政府你們一直都有在這邊努力喔"},{"start":287.27,"end":308.922,"text":"可是很可惜我們現在看到國小有月推的比例大概不到30%國中比較多快要到50%可是總計來看其實不到30%我們真的希望未來才化法剛剛院長才開完記者會才化法新版才化法之後我們希望中央跟地方各自承擔月推老師的工作這個非常重要對不對次長跟你說一下是的"},{"start":311.092,"end":340.661,"text":"我剛講的閱推啊幼兒教育啊或者是國中小的購書計畫其實非常多都是希望用這麼多滿滿的閱讀資源對全國家長跟全國老師宣示說我們教育部在閱讀對抗3C這件事情我們有更多的決心我們一起努力所以最後投影片好你們可以把這張拍回去那我們辦公室也會再繼續跟你們開會喔就是第一個相關閱讀推動方案的計畫還有就是學權閱讀還有就是閱推老師的計畫還有最後才化法我們在教育部跟地方政府如何分工"},{"start":341.061,"end":344.31,"text":"積極推進閱讀資源這樣好不好好 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謝謝昭偉 我們有請劉次長請劉次長好 次長午安在這個數位時代兒少接觸短影音社群媒體還有深層式的AI時間越來越長媒體素養已非一個學習的選項而是生活必備的能力"},{"start":35.021,"end":50.988,"text":"透過教育積極培育的基本素養教育部在2023年發布的最新版本它是數位時代媒體素養教育白皮書建置了媒體素養教育的資源網中"},{"start":53.129,"end":77.366,"text":"在網站中也有許多資源可以利用但是仍有幾個問題我想在此請教一下次長報告中對這個在職研習的這個描述非常的完整但對於這個師資培育端著墨較少那這個師培課程過去很少處理這個媒體素養再加上這個學科的這個界線模糊"},{"start":78.146,"end":106.171,"text":"怎麼教 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國會他們說通過了一個叫做台灣保證實施法案等於是川普的簽署這個法案中的內容就是把我們要去華府的官員的層級原來有些限制都把它拿掉了是不是這個意思就是我請教你在這個之前"},{"start":44.113,"end":70.407,"text":"外交部長 我們的外交部長 國防部長是不是基本上不能到華府當然院長更不用講了 院長更不用講了行政院長更不用講了就是外交部長 國防部長行政院長幾乎都沒去啊告訴我哪一院去了 沒有啊對不對 沒有嘛那現在這個法通過以後是不是可以去了如果"},{"start":72.895,"end":91.108,"text":"我該去的時候我就會去所以現在你都不該去是不是啊你當然要突破啊有一些外交的事情我也不方便在這裡講你當然要突破啊對你來講的話你涉及到雙邊的關係啊你應該抓住這個機會要去啊你有沒有想去嘛我就問你嘛當然站在我們就是有機會當然是應該要去啊還沒開始規劃現在飛機很方便啊好那我再進一步問了"},{"start":102.304,"end":104.045,"text":"川普會簽署嗎這個參眾兩院都通過理應啦 應該是會尊重參眾兩院但是沒有到簽署 確定我們也不能代言啊對 那我問你大概什麼時候可以簽署還有一個時間 國會法案那個北美事查一下好幾天"},{"start":128.849,"end":142.015,"text":"10天 不包括週日10天喔 所以從昨天開始算10天不包括週日那就在11月底 渴望川普是簽署他有沒有什麼理由可以不簽署 有沒有這個歷史上都有啊 有嘛這個涉及到否決權或是其他的程序 他還是可以不簽署嘛他現在拼命要巴結習近平啦他會不會簽署還不知道喔 打一個問號喔那這個順帶一回比較重要的是 請問"},{"start":158.757,"end":182.291,"text":"今年底之前賴總統你有沒有可能安排賴總統過境外交有沒有這個可能我們這個台美關係都是建立在這個就是說我們的過境訪問都是有過去的慣例啦一些原則可以參考那今年就沒有了嗎確定沒有了嗎今年今年還沒有結束啊"},{"start":185.598,"end":195.56,"text":"但是我也不是說今年會有沒有我是說其實元首出訪或過境是外交部的重點工作那有關相關的安排對外的說明會有總統府他們對外來做說明安排是你安排的嘛對不對你現在都沒有啟動任何安排我想沒有說什麼啟動不啟動我們隨時都在安排中這樣今年賴總統都沒有去美國咧"},{"start":214.002,"end":215.403,"text":"這樣你外交部長失職喔他這麼重要的事情他要過境美國啊這對我們總統來講很重要啊是不是這樣是人手出訪或過境是很重要過境啊對啊這是你的事情啊結果這樣子"},{"start":232.487,"end":246.989,"text":"我們外交部都會參與期間但是總統府他有一套機制包括對外的說明或是我們看到啊這個這兩天吵了很大的題目就日本的首相"},{"start":248.05,"end":254.353,"text":"要高市長苗 他的願望化之後啊我看到你的好朋友啊 就趁這個聲量啊吳釗燮啊 你的好朋友啊你要不要也趁一下這個聲量 你要不要講幾句我們第一時間就有發表聲明啦我沒有看到林佳龍點兩點沒有這個啊外交部啊 部長就是林佳龍啊那你再講一下吧 你要講一下你講吧你要講得比要override吳釗燮啊"},{"start":277.836,"end":287.421,"text":"我們都代表國家 外交部代表我們國家的外交嘛吳釗燮的講話他 吳釗燮對外這樣子去罵老共他是代表國安會還是代表個人啊請問你啊你是問我外交部還問我國安會他問你吳釗燮講話是代表國安會還是代表他個人這你應該問他"},{"start":301.823,"end":307.304,"text":"我只能夠代表外交部啊我做球給你你都不敢講話你的好朋友這樣子吃你豆腐你都不敢講話對不對照理講國安會它是一個幕僚單位啊要講話是外交部講話怎麼是國安會講話你看我做球給你你看我對你都好給你發揮你也不要發揮不敢發揮你怕他喔我跟他很熟啦我們都有在賴來賴去的好朋友 你跟他是好朋友"},{"start":332.466,"end":341.89,"text":"這三四十年啊 學者從政啊我們過去都 有時候職務換來換去我也在國安會待過 他也在外交部待過我們兩個都在總統府待過副秘書長跟秘書長可能像我們兩個職務這樣子重疊那麼大的 多的也很少你對話說你們兩個是好朋友的不那麼相信啦在座誰會舉手 十個裡面沒有一個舉手"},{"start":356.235,"end":369.784,"text":"大家都不相信啊公務跟私語要分開啊公務要就事論事啊所以你們是有你們是有私語不錯啊公務不好就這樣意思就是這樣沒有啦就事論事其實很多事情都是為了國家嘛對啦私語有私語但是公這個公務不好你的解讀就是這樣對吧我們合作完成了很多事情現在人家在講你啊說人家一直要你的位子啊說把你點名叫你去選桃園市長啊"},{"start":386.34,"end":388.181,"text":"對不對 這個謊話的人是誰人家要你位子啊 你要小心你的位子啊你要不要說什麼 說要去討厭選市長的事情要不要講一點我現在的角色外交部長 我把外交部長為國家盡最大的力量這個選舉的事 外面報道來報道去你有沒有辦法每件事情都去回應啊"},{"start":413.118,"end":423.131,"text":"我現在就已經給你機會回應了啊你今天要你選桃園市長 你覺得怎麼樣啊也不錯啊 這個能打下來如果你能打下來 那也不錯啊"},{"start":424.366,"end":431.434,"text":"我就是把外交部長的角色做好可見的你覺得外交部長做的比選桃園市長容易啦桃園市長不容易啦詹先生做這麼好對不對 你居然當炮灰啦對不對 站在這樣子有好朋友立場 我也勸你不要去啦你會害啦 你要去會害啦中了人家的計啦 對不對 拼拼點頭 謝謝謝謝委員的關心好 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我們請國發會主委好 我們請國發會主委 謝謝"},{"start":26.502,"end":49.031,"text":"主委好這個我先想用這個惠達執行長黃仁勳他不斷強調的一個概念就是主權AI他不斷的警告說如果一個國家沒有他自己的主權AI他沒有辦法掌握自己的數據沒有辦法掌握自己的文化解釋權那他就會陷入智慧的進口依賴那你說他智慧的進口依賴就是我們必須在各個公部門"},{"start":49.591,"end":74.82,"text":"現在它不可以把我們想要在公部門的資訊放到ChurchGPT嘛理論上是不行的嘛儘管它是美國的但是因為它跟我國畢竟還是有主權上面的這個不同那在資訊管理上面或者是在資安管理上面我們不方便把它丟到ChurchGPT或者不方便把它丟到相關的這樣子的智慧模型語言大型語言的模型裡面我這樣講是對還錯是對嘛應該是這樣子所以這對台灣人來說是一個"},{"start":78.601,"end":95.754,"text":"我認為說是一個警訊首先我們沒有辦法效率化的使用這樣子的數位工具如果沒有辦法效率化的使用數位工具的話我們跟民間的差距就會越來越大因為現在在民間的不管是跟資訊相關的公司也好或者是一般的你可能是做貿易相關的公司也好它"},{"start":96.354,"end":123.396,"text":"越来越依赖这样子的这种大型的圆模型那生产的效率会随着这样子的时间的推进那gap会越来越大我想这应该是很明显的所以这对台湾来说是很大的警讯我们生产了全球90%的这个重要的硬体晶片我们拥有最强的细钝但是在软离层面我们缺乏自己的制钝所以我看到经济部可能经济部的师长也麻烦也可以一起来去回应"},{"start":124.036,"end":147.517,"text":"我們看到經濟部他在回覆沈博洋委員的書面詞詢他裡面有明確的提到要結合法人運用台灣產業特有的資料打造台灣自主的AI核心技術那國科會有推動你們的可信任的台灣的大型語言模型但是目前的架構我認為有幾個結構性的問題"},{"start":149.238,"end":156.429,"text":"第一個部分 這一個大學的語言模型的預算大概是多少錢可不可以簡單的回應一下TED台德 台德這一個"},{"start":164.292,"end":191.965,"text":"我們確認一下我講一下那個數據你們跟我們核實是不是這樣大概預算是1億多新台幣大概是這個規模應該沒有錯嗎如果我們的查證沒有錯的話過去的投入年度的預算大概是1億多這個新台幣那法國的我們可以相應的這個機構它成立大概兩年多那今年9月的預估值是140億美元也就是4300多億台幣"},{"start":194.198,"end":223.958,"text":"那法國人口數大概數倍於我們但是也僅是數倍不會差4300倍所以雙方的落差是超過千倍那這樣子的千倍的落差我們受限於我們這是一個學研機構我們受限於它的薪資結構我們根本搶不贏其他重要的這些大型的這種企業大型的公司不要說台積電Google或者是頂級的海外的這些架構式來回流嘛"},{"start":224.698,"end":249.815,"text":"所以我覺得幾個方案第一個就是產業化的路徑可以透過主權基金的投資讓我們的這種可信任的人工智慧對話引擎能夠成為一個民營的新創它有辦法在這個市場上面存活下去但同時也是我國的自主的主權的AI想請教一下市長或者是主委你認為我們有沒有辦法參考這些相關的模式來去"},{"start":251.092,"end":269.172,"text":"不要引用輔助的思維我們可以透過國發經濟來去點火用股權投資的方式把它作為這種衍生新創的方式來去擴大讓它成為一個具備市場競爭力的這樣能夠開出年薪非常多的這樣子來去延攬頂級人才的國家隊"},{"start":271.762,"end":294.029,"text":"報告委員 就主權基金這個部分因為還在收集資料演講當中的話這個主權基金這個部分我比較沒辦法回答但是國發基金這邊的話其實我們有跟速發部跟國客會這邊都有合作那我們會有一個叫做百億的主題式的投資那這個部分的話倒是可以去幫助一些新創"},{"start":295.709,"end":318.498,"text":"所以我們現在的這一個我們台德這一個本身它是採用哪一種模式台德應該不是國發基金的還是用傳統我們用補助大概每年有年度預算這樣但是台德可能就是我們最主要的國家主權的AI可以這麼講嗎那這樣子的資金的投入夠嗎這才是我比較擔心的問題"},{"start":319.397,"end":348.835,"text":"台德只是其中的一部分我们现在国网中心有成立一个台湾AI Rep成立一个联盟那对于有意愿投入不管是大圆模型或小圆模型或者是相关个别应用的公司我们都可以来做协助或开发相关的平台那刚刚讲的AI的这个百亿的基金它也可以持续的挹注这些新的新创公司那甚至是结合经济部跟国科会既有的一些新创的机制都可以来协助这些AI新创公司的一个发展以上OK"},{"start":349.335,"end":376.013,"text":"非常感谢那我还是在强调一下我们刚才提到的规模上面的差别这个估值4300多亿台币跟这样子的年度预算它可能是没有办法做匹配的那当然如果说有白亿的资金进入那让各种不同的新创企业能够从中得到资源有朝一日可以去扩大到这种程度的话我们也是乐见其成的但是还是要强调"},{"start":376.693,"end":378.054,"text":"好 谢谢那么我们登记发言"}]}},{"id":"165715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91308922e267e3e0138f94607883e6102ae8603fab3ff6def27d2e2cafc87676f955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:55:21 - 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謝謝速發部胡竹蜜跟教育部劉次長好 我想剛剛那個謝委員我想他應該是蠻吃素的啦為什麼紅的是王世堅不是他這樣子"},{"start":21.46,"end":38.847,"text":"那不過我想因為接續剛剛的題目我可能也會再重複再問一次就是有關於說這個抖音的部分我們看到速發部有一些做法但是我也要強調一件事情就是說今天為什麼這個這麼的嚴重就是說我們在很多的國際研究顯示了"},{"start":39.807,"end":53.464,"text":"他們用模擬的方式用模擬一個13歲的孩子在加入了這樣子的平台之後大概幾個小時之後這個TikTok會推播給他超過一半的內容都是攸關"},{"start":55.186,"end":73.314,"text":"自殺 自傷自殘的一些相關的資訊所以為什麼TikTok它是一個非常危險的一個平台那特別是說呢現在有九 根據這個台灣傳播調查資料庫最新的資料台灣九到十二歲的孩子都在使用TikTok"},{"start":74.232,"end":100.549,"text":"所以我个人是非常支持我们要去禁因为这个禁是跟孩子的生命息息相关了那所以我想问一下就是说现在出发部有说我们要来禁可是呢做法说是要遮蔽中小学的WiFi连线忘记拿帮我按好了忘记拿那个遥控了不好意思帮我按要遮蔽中小学的WiFi连线限制儿校透过校园网络连线到TikTok"},{"start":101.169,"end":118.924,"text":"所以我們也有要提出不適合15歲以下青少年使用的APP清單目前學校的管控技術是透過行動裝置管理技術進行管控例如它可能在使用平板的時候都是用MDAM來管控個人的載具也需要申請核准"},{"start":120.206,"end":142.888,"text":"那好像有一些做法但是呢其實家長的意見不一因為大家會認為其實是無法全面防範的特別是說也有學生來表示說我們都有自己的門號吃到飽啊進不進根本就沒有差所以校長也有講同樣的意思就是防不勝防甚至我們現在已經看到了已經有網站來教他如何破解"},{"start":145.792,"end":161.318,"text":"如何來去破解這件事情如何越獄所以我想請速發部跟教育部都來說明一下我們到底還有什麼更積極的做法來因應這樣子現在已經發現的這個破解之道可不可以請教育部先說明然後再請速發部補充"},{"start":164.281,"end":191.628,"text":"跟委員報告是我們還是強調我們是有關於這些抖音跟小紅書的因為它是大陸製的軟體我們沒有辦法就是就在我們的沒有辦法在我們的所謂的深深有平板斑斑有平板深深用平板的載具上面去下載這些東西這是確定的那我們的學術網路上也是不會有擁有的所以在學校的"},{"start":192.908,"end":217.434,"text":"學習環境裡面是無法使用抖音跟小紅書的至於他要不要利用自己的手機跟用ADSL來使用那就是可能是書發部要有進一步的除非他已經他去的一些網站他內容上已經違反了所謂的兒少法的規定我們會透過iWIN的機制去叫"},{"start":218.975,"end":243.784,"text":"業者下架如果業者不下架我們教育部才會接著就下架至於其他這個我們就請出發部好了好 芝克斯是 跟會員報告就是目前我們教育部所管的那個所有的載具不會有這樣的狀況有 我知道剛剛自打電說明了有新的資訊嗎對 應該是這樣講因為我們是整個都會列管所以它只要"},{"start":244.844,"end":272.166,"text":"就是越獄了我們就會知道有一台不在我們的管轄裡面還有它的使用量所以這個目前不會有這個不會發生就對了對 我們會密切注意這個議題謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們請說八部網路當然是就是透過Wi-Fi它內的或者是我們教育部會去處理啦那那個App一定應該是不能裝嘛是不是"},{"start":274.466,"end":289.213,"text":"我想我刚刚讲的是说今天其实是你只有屏蔽附近的网络学生其实用自己的方式其实是还是可以使用的所以我们才问说这样子的一个做法我们有没有什么样因应的方案还是发布现在完全没想法"},{"start":289.653,"end":312.86,"text":"应该是说我们现在是正在盘点相关的比如说儿少有害的这些APP对然后我们也期待在跟卫福部或者是跟教育部共同讨论一下比如说我们在游戏的里面应该要怎么样去做一些我想问一下因为你新闻里面书发部有讲到会延你12岁以下孩童不能设T-talk我想知道到实务上面你要如何来执行这件事情"},{"start":313.382,"end":328.215,"text":"其实现在很多的像脸书也好会有一些这种社群媒体他们自己有一些自律可是有时候是家长帮他装的所以这个部分可能家长的沟通也是非常重要所以我们像这个其他平台他们事实上都有一些自律机制"},{"start":329.016,"end":352.071,"text":"他们就要求说几岁以下的小朋友对 但是问题是每个平台的约束就是我虽然有一些自制 我有一些控制但是我像今天大家在讲的这个Ttalk相对于其他平台还是更弱的而且并不是那么的明确不然我们的9到12岁小孩如果他讲了12岁以下他们会去内控的话那我们怎么会有超过一半的小孩都在使用呢这就显示了他这个内控机制是有问题的"},{"start":354.593,"end":370.49,"text":"對 委員指正的是不過這個部分我們後續真的會再跟衛福部還有教育部來共同討論那速發部可以技術上面提供必要的支持 謝謝好 我是希望還可以有更積極的去做法啦不然我覺得這樣子其實只有靠平台自治其實是沒有辦法解決的這個問題因為對他來說"},{"start":372.652,"end":390.262,"text":"並沒有什麼壞處啊 大家多使用TikTok 多使用小紅書對他來說反而是一件好事嘛 對不對好 那我想問一下就是說我們現在其實在許多的國家呢都有一個非常積極的做法我不曉得說蘇巴布知不知道說這個澳洲其實已經禁了大概是九個吧"},{"start":392.643,"end":404.969,"text":"九哥的這個APP那我們是不是對於澳洲的一個做法因為據說我收到的消息是法國也要跟進了那我不曉得我們對於澳洲的做法他怎麼做的我們有沒有清楚的了解"},{"start":407.634,"end":427.975,"text":"這個部分有沒有禁止兒少來使用這些社群媒體的部分剛才講其實我們相關的法規的主管機關還是在衛福部或者是教育現場這樣子所以這個必須要跨部會來一起了解然後一起去做必要的處置這樣子對但是因為是你們自己的報告裡面有寫啊"},{"start":429.593,"end":450.225,"text":"對啊這是一個研究不過他還是需要跨部會就主管機關來就法律上面看怎麼處理這樣子所以這樣聽起來你們沒有了解還是靠其他的部會是嗎技術上面我們可以處理沒有問題技術上面我知道政策上面應該要怎麼樣定調怎麼樣去進那所以我們了解他們怎麼去做這個年齡驗證的技術"},{"start":451.918,"end":476.581,"text":"其实年龄验证有时候是去买手机的时候就可以去做必要的控管那这个很多技术面我们真的还可以再讨论好 了解 谢谢那接下来我们再请回来教育部就是说我其实一直都非常关注这个议题那也因为这个儿少使用这些社交平台里面会衍生到后续的不管是儿少诈骗"},{"start":477.262,"end":500.773,"text":"或者是這個兒少性剝削影像的一個流出那其實甚至還有人會因此因為洩漏了太多的上面跟孩子要了太多的個資或者是兒童自己不小心沒有意識因為大概有超過一半的孩子其實都沒有意識到他傳遞的這一些個資之後可能會造成後患無窮的問題那我想問一下就是說我們這個數位素養"},{"start":502.754,"end":522.187,"text":"好我們現在的一些宣導跟教案的部分呢根據我從老師還有家長的回應是說我們都非常的簡單非常的直接就是跟著小朋友說不要不要不要不要而是我們其實沒有提供太多的一個情境讓孩子知道說可能犯罪者會如何的犯罪這樣小孩才有意識到說啊這好像是一種犯罪的情境"},{"start":523.673,"end":546.36,"text":"因為我也要跟教育部要求就是說因為這些壞人其實都非常了解孩子在青少年時期跟家長的關係可能沒那麼好學校有很多的同儕壓力他都太了解了所以如果我們沒有在這些劇本裡我們不了解這個犯罪情境我們沒有呈現給孩子孩子真的不知道他已經掉入陷阱了所以我們在這些相關的教案上面我們還有精進的空間嗎"},{"start":547.918,"end":566.613,"text":"有的有的有的我们事实上每年都有请老师的在职在职训练有关于不管是媒体素养跟数位媒体素养那我们也会请那个刚才我有报告过我们会请有经验的教学的老师跟专家学者入校手把手的"},{"start":567.533,"end":592.081,"text":"教学协助还有教材的设计我们会及时的将一些案例放入里面的学训如果委员有一些新的或更好的资源我们教育部都会愿意放到我们及时更新的教材只有不断的更新老师的培训才会积极的带领学生去试诈了解不要被骗这样子"},{"start":592.438,"end":607.549,"text":"好 那因為我時間已經到了我再簡單要一個資料就是說我們目前呢針對於這些數位教養 數位素養對於學生的部分我們有幾個版本然後我們更新的頻率然後還有我們現在在學校裡面是不是有要求有多少的時數"},{"start":608.91,"end":625.746,"text":"那这个资料是不是可以提供给我那同时我们对于家长的一些要求又是什么或是有没有一些相关的指引这个东西也是非常重要的因为有蛮多的家长其实小孩子的个资是因为家长而泄露出去的好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b913cd013f0f3d72aafa558ea7a01fa758798603fab3ff6def273cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:52:31 - 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日本有事高市首相在國會的答詢基本上他們也都認為他們都支持就台灣有事 日本有事 台灣沒事 日本沒事這種概念在他們政治圈在國會基本上已經形成一個共識了"},{"start":48.76,"end":57.054,"text":"所以代表說日台關係非常的密切不管是民間 經濟 或者是政治"},{"start":58.836,"end":79.389,"text":"從這邊來看這個未來這個台日的雙邊的這個政務間的交流包括國會的交流政務間的這個交流能不能可能再提升的空間比如說這個台灣保證實施法案在美國通過眾議院大概五月六月就通過了"},{"start":81.004,"end":108.886,"text":"那這個參議院也通過就等川普總統簽署就生效所以他是打破過去的紅線未來更高層級的這個台美雙邊的官員互動會變成常態化那這個也確保說這個雙方的台美關係不會受到影響不會受到停滯對話管道也通暢台日之間有沒有可能"},{"start":111.094,"end":132.063,"text":"我們來努力看看我覺得我們跟大臣大概有困難那你這個層級可以直接見到美國的部長嗎現在 如果這個法案通過之後是說美國還是日本美國啦 美國 通過之後川普總統簽署之後你能不能直接見到美國相關的部長"},{"start":134.371,"end":158.292,"text":"這個應該是大家努力的方向應該沒有問題 因為有這個法案作為支撐那你現在去日本是沒有辦法接到大臣的很多都老朋友 該見面都會見面有些是涉及到公開或私下各種不同的互動關係台北不一樣 台北是可以到公開"},{"start":159.574,"end":188.652,"text":"那我們去要見大臣啦雖然他也是國會議員我們見大臣也有目前有一些的限制不成文的規定默契啦但是如果不公開也許可以啦那以前我覺得日本也有在討論要制定台灣旅行法或是台灣關係法有在討論嗎有啊這個也是那個所以我期待說他們很多國會議員在努力的方向台日雙邊的互動的官方互動可以跟美國一樣"},{"start":189.392,"end":206.479,"text":"因為美國跟日本是台灣最重要的友邦這個日本在地緣政治地緣經濟是命運共同體所以才會有所謂這個台灣有事日本有事這不是一個口號這是實際上的狀況"},{"start":208.789,"end":230.822,"text":"所以 我跟委員講 其實我們不要被中共制約嘛就是說他有邦交我們沒邦交 為什麼沒邦交的國家政府不能正常的往來就像在打仗的國家也都可以談判一樣啊所以我認為那是過去中共喔 他的一個就是說不斷造成的一個 可以說"},{"start":232.165,"end":256.452,"text":"有他在所謂一中的政策之下就不能怎麼樣你講的我都同意啦我們要努力就是說在現有的框架之下打破來強化廣化跟日本官方的交流啦地方政府沒有問題我說中央層級大層副大層我們目前去私底下可能可以見到但公開他們也覺得有過去的默契"},{"start":257.423,"end":281.664,"text":"那未來這個台日雙邊關係只有更深化還是要更深化所以我大概兩三個月就會拜訪國會這個各主要的這個黨派對台日雙邊關係做一些的討論那之前我在這邊也請教過部長就是說小多邊的概念你也提出來在你的報告裡面"},{"start":282.898,"end":293.003,"text":"謝謝委員 安全上面是美日韓非呀這未來是不是有可能他們在軍演什麼或者是在聯合演習"},{"start":294.448,"end":320.26,"text":"台灣要努力成為觀察員那種多邊的這個架構裡面台灣好像在哪一個多邊架構有一個觀察員我說這個安全演習的部分未來台灣這個台海最重要的幾個夥伴就是美國日本跟韓國加上這個在東南亞的這個菲律賓所以這部分美日韓非怎麼樣讓這個小多邊能夠更加強化這個安全議題上面"},{"start":321.004,"end":338.008,"text":"另外台美 台灣 韓國跟日本更能夠三邊關係我覺得是一個命運共同體的概念如果南韓未來有一天說南韓有事 台灣有事就是南韓有事"},{"start":340.031,"end":354.08,"text":"這個可能發生啊這已經列入現在川普跟李在寧總統的聲明裡面了認為那個就是fact sheet那個事實文件裡面台海的問題不可能不影響到南韓嘛"},{"start":355.014,"end":384.117,"text":"但是他們也知道這個事實但沒有辦法從他們的首相或者他們領導人這個嘴巴裡面說出來所以像台灣有事 日本有事這個是大家都朗朗上口這個日本政績大家都有默契跟共識那民間也是這樣認為那南韓不敢講他們認為說這個講出來可能會顧及到中國的因素這是我們要努力的方向"},{"start":385.689,"end":408.282,"text":"所以台日韓三邊關係啊三國的互動非常密切那上次我請教過你這2加2台韓的2加2戰略的話目前有沒有進度呢是亞太斯亞太斯有沒有進度那您來我辦公室也開過好幾次會我下個月還會再去看一下這個也開過好幾次會到底有沒有進度啦"},{"start":413.636,"end":439.853,"text":"這個目前還沒有具體的進展應該這樣但是不管雙邊的2加2或小多邊的2加2去編織一個網格狀的安全架構那就是部分就是您講的小多邊因為我們目前大概跟美國都有雙邊的關係可是呢美國也企圖啦把它連結起來變成我打三年的話多邊是由好幾組雙邊所組成的這叫網格狀的一個安全架構台韓在加強"},{"start":442.435,"end":469.051,"text":"有點線面啦 把它串起來因為第一島鏈也是一個單一戰場很多大概都有這個認識但是我覺得在這個外交部這個作案代表處也要強化有一些惡鬼外交 您也知道包括國會議員在開始進行的或者是說1.5軌或是不是可以到1軌我想這個都是在國家的利益那我也要特別提到其實他們也是據他們國家的利益"},{"start":469.611,"end":486.2,"text":"不能夠沒有台灣啦因為台灣如果變缺口的話整個印太戰略就垮掉了嘛第一島鏈就變成中共可以啊到太平洋嘛我們守我們的位置他們也知道我們的重要性有些東西只能做不能說部長你講的我都同意我的結論很簡單"},{"start":488.661,"end":512.527,"text":"有交流才有對話有對話才有可能有合作的機會對不對對才有理念這個分享或者是價值觀的分享或者是這個這些這個戰略或戰術對話等等所以我說的是我自然在努力國會有國會努力的方向跟目標但是行政部門外交部也要責成諸行代表署要加強把這個2加2"},{"start":514.844,"end":522.517,"text":"把這個戰略對話整個架構把它建立起來那我們這邊來助攻你們這邊來規劃我們一起努力好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9135c19431302300f81f94607883e6102ae8603fab3ff6def27fd2c8cf5242c617a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:33:08 - 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谢谢我们主席陈昭伟我这边请教育部的次长刘次长和这个述发部今天是司长是吗对不起主秘抱歉主秘谢谢"},{"start":22.79,"end":48.758,"text":"好 謝謝今天我們來針對防範不當AI的生成的兒少的內容如何來加強數位跟媒體的素養來做一個討論本席今天先從日本發生的一個案例來談這件事情京都的警方日前破獲了一件AI性剝削的案件主要是一個16歲的少年把自己喜歡的同學的照片"},{"start":49.858,"end":70.652,"text":"讓網友來製造生成AI製作成一個性化短影音並在那個Discord的社群裡面來散發群組裡面有數千人這個是一個很嚴重的偽造性私密影片然後的一個剝削事件但是最可怕的是加害者竟然是同學"},{"start":71.072,"end":84.176,"text":"那他的動機竟然是因為喜歡這個同學喜歡他把人家製造私密影像的這個同學那這個案子有三個狀況本席這邊來凸顯這三個狀況"},{"start":86.877,"end":115.766,"text":"第一個就是深層式的AI已經讓未成年人能夠輕易的製造高擬幀的色情影片第二個部分是社群群組像Discord或Line已經成為散佈的場域而且是相對難以追蹤也沒有辦法及時下架的第三個部分是受害者多半不知道自己被性剝削了因為這個影像基本上是偽造的台灣面臨的孩子面臨的這個問題也不會比日本少"},{"start":116.406,"end":142.354,"text":"我們各部會在整個校園AI身為性影像剝削有沒有比較完善的跨部會防堵機制就成為如何處理跟解決這樣子事件的關鍵所以本席在這邊指出AI生成的相關犯罪已經是新的犯罪太陽但是現行制度有一些漏洞第一個是平台的責任不明確所以Discord跟Telegram等"},{"start":142.814,"end":159.105,"text":"是海外企業那封閉式的群組難以要求下架那第二個部分是AI技術的日新月異那使兒少難以具備足夠因應的科技倫理那也沒有辦法未成年人常常認為這只是開玩笑只是群組"},{"start":160.086,"end":184.453,"text":"分享但事實上他已經影響到很多人而且構成了犯罪第三個部分是AI生成的工具也很容易取得那很多的都是免費又免登錄匿名就可以做出來本席想要請教教育部跟速發部那我們是不是有完善的跨部會的防堵機制而且是不是夠及時那第二個部分是教育部在校園端是不是有足提供"},{"start":184.873,"end":206.689,"text":"足夠的AI使用跟倫理教育的內容我們現行的課綱是不是有讓學生教導學生如何使用生成式AI運用不但有可能會傷害其他人甚至犯罪本席認為教育部應該將AI身為的更多的額外風險納入校園的性平教育或數位素養的內容是不是請"},{"start":209.143,"end":224.772,"text":"市長這邊來先做一個回應好是的謝謝委員的關切首先那個這個涉及的這件事情那如果校園的任何一個人包括學生碰到這件事情如果反映到教育部我們會轉請衛福部的信"},{"start":225.666,"end":254.287,"text":"所以又转来转去本席刚刚一直强调一个概念就是这个及时性那个我们会立刻请卫福部的性影像处理中心去处理要求他们下架我们校方也会马上进行学生的辅导那至于养成教育这个一定是老师要在媒体那本席要问的是说教育部你们有没有在这个部分更强力的让数位素养跟"},{"start":255.387,"end":283.818,"text":"這個科技倫理把它放置在你們教學各項的教學內容上而且能夠因應現在即時性的科技的演算速力跟速度有 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包还有家长老师学生的使用守则我们的希望藉由教育的方式引导家长跟学校"},{"start":234.758,"end":250.416,"text":"这个是我们的希望跟愿景但是本席告诉你一个数据所以你必须要应对政策也就俄国人们针对6000多个国中高中的学生来进行问卷调查在2025年里头台湾儿少网络安全的调查"},{"start":250.876,"end":276.408,"text":"你顯示了青少年對於社群媒體的依賴度是很高的這是目前我們逃離不了的而且必須要去應對的那每天使用的比例高達84.6%有部分的青少年已經陷入沉迷的狀態那調查也發現11.6%的表示自己或同學曾經收到同學朋友的性影像是有11.6%比較於2023年的9.7%他是增加的"},{"start":279.97,"end":300.737,"text":"在外流方面自己或者是同學曾經外流個人的性影像的部分是高達8.7比2023年5.2還要增加所以你的數字已經告訴你你必須要有一個對策同時青少年每增加一個年級自己外流性影像的機率它是升到19.6%"},{"start":303.678,"end":332.029,"text":"那我們也看到青少年如果沉迷在社群那性影像外流的機會他是大增的所以市長社群媒體已經成為生活不管是學生大人也好他是不可或缺的一部分我們要如何的能夠讓孩子在正確的學習讓他能夠健康的去使用社群媒體這非常的重要所以你們的應對機制要怎麼去做呢"},{"start":332.529,"end":360.987,"text":"我們還是要跟家長溝通還有引導我們給家長一些指導一些手工具包是希望市長目前你所做的答案出來是不斷的在負面的這個數字增加所以本席要請你還要去研議因為這個關係到整個家庭的關係以及親子的管教方面都是息息相關尤其本席最注重的"},{"start":361.627,"end":384.577,"text":"青少年兒童的心理問題這是非常的重要所以在這樣的情況下你也認定這個議題我們必須要去嚴厲應對那你把你嚴厲的方向給本席我再給你一個數字給你我們看到深層式的AI進入到青少年的日常生活58.4%的青少年每週至少使用一次"},{"start":385.837,"end":406.704,"text":"20.9是每一天都會使用一次那大部分使用都在查資料或者是寫報告翻譯資料摘要製作圖卡所以兩個議題本席也說了我們現在看到有12.7%的學生是照抄AI所提供的這個答案來替代作業"},{"start":408.645,"end":431.8,"text":"這個數據告訴我們所以也有28.2%是運用這個方面來用於情緒的一個支持尤其在青少年的使用AI的比例更高所以這個議題是很嚴肅的議題我們必須要好好的去面對但是我們看到在媒體素養的方面會查證AI資訊是否正確的是不到40%"},{"start":433.241,"end":461.706,"text":"所以我们除了以前本席跟教育部讨论老师要怎么样培训能够去辨别这个是AI的答案还是孩子的答案你们说刚刚我听到你们的回答是说你们从今年开始开始在培训这个非常的重要非常的重要第二个就是因为你如果是正确的使用AI它是有助于帮助于学习这一点很重要所以"},{"start":462.726,"end":488.178,"text":"具體要求要讓我們的教育部呢針對於學生適當的使用數位工具怎麼樣去能夠去對的健康的方向因為唯有如此才能夠增加我們的人才的一個競爭力嘛所以目前的數字告訴你是不及格的那你要怎麼樣協助這些孩子協助國人能夠有正確的使用AI的這個方式"},{"start":489.96,"end":499.916,"text":"您說呢持續努力持續努力你持續努力之餘你要去應對現在的樣態提出方案嘛好不好提出方案給本席謝謝楊瓊英委員質詢 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後面兩位你不要干擾次長備詢"},{"start":225.246,"end":241.981,"text":"你這樣很干擾市長喔莫非你現在是要先請大家先熟悉 先瞭解 先宣傳說來來來 大家先來我們士科斯的官網再從官網裡面告訴他說 你們再來看那我們怎麼去宣導大家要來怎麼做網路的防護跟管理"},{"start":242.721,"end":262.265,"text":"這多此一舉啊所以你自己官網上面啊其實瀏覽的人次這個成績是很不理想的那你又怎麼去宣導呢所以呢我今天要跟您提的是說我們如果今天要去提供家長這樣的東西我恐怕你不是只有單靠資科斯這一點要必須跟您提然後呢我們再來討論到剛才講得沸沸揚揚的"},{"start":265.166,"end":281.861,"text":"我包括這本剛才我看次長您剛剛是照這本來念的嘛對嗎我感覺您念的蠻吃力的然後也蠻辛苦的好那這裡面不管是你看到來第一項我們說我們要來管理喔那這個管理呢就像剛剛講的我們就說"},{"start":283.422,"end":300.979,"text":"不得安裝但是沒有針對如果今天孩子的手機上他有吃到飽你要怎麼去做管理你只有說不得安裝然後再來往後去看我們剛剛的工具包看來這個工具包現在還沒有去普及那我們再看到第二項的部分培養校園師生素養"},{"start":303.962,"end":327.663,"text":"要幹嘛 辦理教師真能研習 講師培訓然後再往下我們建置中小學數位的教育資源網要叫老師也再來研習然後再往下看我們還要定期辦理資訊素養自我評量的網路活動誰來處理 老師要來幫忙然後我們再來看到我們把這個相關的素養放到12年國教的核心素養"},{"start":328.243,"end":345.332,"text":"我相信如果在12年國教的這個核心素養裡面也是我們老師在第一線那最後剛才還提到說本席很認真看你的報告上面還寫說我們要來做這個媒體素養基地學校現在有幾所了有五所有五所 哪五所"},{"start":347.655,"end":369.512,"text":"我背不出來你背不出來 好吧 那來救一下市長吧有分別是師大附中竹南高中中興大學附農還有上化高中以及新化高中那為什麼只有五所他們是種子學校那什麼時候這個種子要把它分產出去"},{"start":370.148,"end":398.181,"text":"他們每年都在做他們依據他地區然後把附近的學校一起進來這個效果做到現在好嗎114年今年才開始做的現在才開始做的剛才我們看到整個相關的預算經費大概高達了72億那您剛有說就是分散在很多地方本席聽到以後其實也蠻擔憂的分散在很多地方會產生幾個問題第一個就是每一個部"},{"start":398.561,"end":418.016,"text":"一個單位我不知道你分散在哪裡大家都要共同來沾一點沾一點這一件事情然後呢再來呢大家怎麼分工然後又怎麼樣去做一個就合作我覺得我都沒有看到所以這個在預算的時候呢我們可能要再來討論一下不是說你把72億然後分散在每個地方這裡一點那裡一點"},{"start":418.516,"end":446.008,"text":"那成效會好嗎那再者我認為大家都知道現在我們的老師其實工作壓力已經非常非常的大了如果按照你剛剛講的我請教你一下現在你針對抖音抖音再問你一次進得了嗎我在想到抖音不是我在進的不是教育部在進的我現在問您您覺得進得了嗎因為教育現場最了解如果你告訴我教育現場不了解這題我就不問了"},{"start":447.386,"end":468.717,"text":"我直接是說進不了進不了嘛對抖音進不了那如果今天抖音進不了我們要用什麼方式讓孩子去學學習他怎麼去做一個自我管理我只講啦其實我們身為大人你說叫大家說不要去看抖音不要去看小紅書我都不好意思問大家說今天在現場的完全沒有看過小紅書的請舉手"},{"start":471.2,"end":486.233,"text":"我剛才說我都沒有要問啦結果你們就舉手了你們真的很自動自翻喔完全沒有看過小紅書的喔我說實在話啦 我也是不太相信啦因為現在小紅書真的很多人在看那好 那剛剛沒有舉手的那是怎麼樣"},{"start":488.158,"end":500.404,"text":"也會看到嘛 所以你要怎麼禁我覺得這個要去思考一下當啊 政策下來 要教育部啊去對這麼多的老師 對這麼多的教職人員對這麼多的學生 你說我們要禁"},{"start":501.482,"end":531.082,"text":"我觉得如果是没有办法去禁的时候你教育部应该是要提出一套你的看法而不是完全接收人家要你这么做你就硬着头皮预算编下去就开始弄其实收不到成果的所以今天以上其实本来还有很多其实大家可以来讨论的我只有一个结论如果说我们一个政策下来今天是为孩子好不管是他要看抖音看小红书看脸书等等很多我们希望他不要受到伤害我们希望他不要受到诈骗"},{"start":531.842,"end":560.441,"text":"这个是对我们的初衷而不是只针对哪一个APP哪一个平台来做我觉得这样就偏颇了所以我们要开大门走大路来为孩子去着想那不只是抖音不只是小红书其实脸书也有发生过这样的事情所以脸书其实更大众在使用那到底要怎么做我建议教育部好好回去想一想今天速发部也好NCC也好他们有这样的想法执行在谁在教育部耶"},{"start":561.101,"end":586.234,"text":"在教育部你不要上面這個政策下來你做不好底下下去這些老師對你會怨聲載道所以我希望教育部回去以後好好思考一下這些預算告訴我們一下你到底準備怎麼用才可以讓孩子達到可以有自我去管理怎麼樣去運用在網路使用上面不要去受到傷害所以這個會後希望在預算審查之前給我們一個報告好不好會的謝謝"},{"start":588.823,"end":590.254,"text":"谢谢外媒领委员质询"}]}},{"id":"165728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b91397b0db08dace96e650d730950bdd7c8a8603fab3ff6def27d5dcb3123ad56a9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:41:09 - 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那既然台積電有在德國設廠那我們跟歐盟或者德國他們如何去做他們自己的人才訓練呢還是說在人才訓練上他會跟台灣的教育單位有合作有 我們台灣的現在有這個"},{"start":68.382,"end":85.835,"text":"半導體的所謂創新的學院在至少有六個大學都有設所以這裡面的人才培訓那我們外交部也有針對比如說中東歐這個民主供應鏈這個任性計畫那我前一陣子也才頒發這個結業證書給將近十個國家來這邊培訓的人才"},{"start":90.658,"end":118.194,"text":"那美國也有晶片法案他這個包括亞利桑那州立大學然後跟我們現在的陽明交大也有合作另外當然這個對於台積電來講最重要的就是人才那人才是雙向的就怎麼樣去形成尤其像在德國如果你觀察的到的話除了在德士登這個晶圓廠之外他在慕尼黑也設晶片設計研發的中心那也需要大量的人才"},{"start":118.814,"end":121.295,"text":"那在我想那個美日歐啦都從人才的這個培養開始這個是新興科技產業的特色那類似這樣一些人才的一些交流嘛對不對培養跟訓練跟怎麼樣去是這一些他們的人要過來我們台灣的大學體制來訓練還是說變成說我們台灣是單方向的輸出這部分"},{"start":144.905,"end":167.887,"text":"這個人才只會越來越多因為有些是必須在地取材當然也必須要就是說比如說在亞利桑那州他們現在我們台美有教育倡議我們就會把這個半導體跟AI放進來那去提供更多的獎學金或者是補助讓這一個人才的質量可以快速的外國在接受這樣半導體的訓練的時候中文是他們的學習項目嗎"},{"start":169.899,"end":180.089,"text":"有一些我們會把語言項目也納入但是大部分我想都英文的教育做基礎因為事實上台灣是要很多半導體業啦我跟他們在聊的時候他們都認為說"},{"start":181.638,"end":204.078,"text":"外國的 如果有半導體的專業喔但是如果中文不行的話 基本上台灣的產業不好用因為我們還是需要以中文 在台灣還是要以中文尤其是在管理階層 還是要以中文為主所以如果是外國的人才 他們在中文的這一塊如果不足的話 變成台灣這一端就不好用了喔"},{"start":205.771,"end":232.207,"text":"其實很國際化的像台積電他當然我們自己人會用中文不過你跟外國人來往對他們來講這也是很基本的那些人才其實我們到了美國當然要用英文中文還是很重要的因為中文這個普通的交往可以但是你要到這個能夠用於真正很精準這種比較高階的心上是"},{"start":233.928,"end":257.8,"text":"時間內是不容易的啦高階的一定是英文嘛只是說生活上可能在這一塊所以我是覺得我的建議啦就是說在交流的部分事實上我們還是希望可以讓他們的人才可以來台灣受訓讓台灣的學校可以多可以有機會去接觸到像這些歐洲的他們的人才來台灣受訓然後來台灣這邊未來也可能在直接在台灣讓我們所用啊"},{"start":262.981,"end":284.432,"text":"沒有錯 我們最近也發生這個現象像我在幾個月前有一個100個海外人才各國派來的那有一些他除了在他們比如他如果在美國 日本 德國可能會留在那邊有台積電的廠另外有一些也會到台灣的廠所以人才的流動是雙向的你知道像菲律賓我們的這個封裝測試雖然是比較這個下游的"},{"start":290.75,"end":313.551,"text":"有一家半導體的工業用了一萬人這是個對於我們台飛經濟走廊未來我們要去發展半導體供應鏈在菲律賓就很重要我那天去拜訪北科大基本上他們現在很多學生不是菲律賓 泰國或印尼反而他們的半導體我們台灣的半導體以及這一些科技的學院因為三班制"},{"start":314.011,"end":319.875,"text":"對 現在印尼的學生是很多的就是說未來這一些雖然是在東南亞可是他也是我們未來半導體業的主要的一些人才人才嘛 都客家人未來會支撐沒有錯 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就是獲利跳水就是因為這個原因嘛那我想問喔因為現在台美關稅那時候我記得我也在這邊質詢過部長部長那時候就是信心滿滿啦就覺得我們很快就會有結果然後後來又變成暫時性嘛然後我上次也有問你暫時多久啦從8月初又暫時到了11月快底了啦那現在看起來應該這個暫時快結束了吧"},{"start":245.39,"end":252.161,"text":"現在就剩下幾個國家還沒有定案嘛對我當然知道台灣啊印度啊巴西啊等等嘛那還要暫時多久"},{"start":254.196,"end":271.282,"text":"現在就是談判到一個階段嘛實質的內容方案已經有一些磋商了嘛現在就是說這個方案可不可以不要每次都不針對問題回答我們現在是覺得到底什麼叫暫時因為我們都做好準備也都談判到一個階段了那現在的問題是這樣韓國跟美國談完之後是說要去投資3500億對吧那他們的做法"},{"start":280.365,"end":292.774,"text":"他們的做法是會成立一個投資委員會而且他們也有在考慮說送到國會來做一個備查跟討論我想問我們政府到時候談的一個結果會送到國會來"},{"start":294.02,"end":321.776,"text":"該送到國會的應該都會循程會成立投資委員會嗎這不是我在這邊講的你可以講沒有 這個配套怎麼樣這是涉及台美的談判你可以參考一下韓國的做法啦因為我覺得韓國因為他很善用在野黨或者是國內的輿論其實對於他們對外談判有一個支撐大家是一起合作在對外談判那你現在政府談完了如果國內大家反彈很大那也來不及了啊"},{"start":322.296,"end":326.226,"text":"所以你應該要委員寶貴的意見我想我們都會納入對 然後"},{"start":328.496,"end":356.813,"text":"再來就是像政府一直告訴我們說我們現在有台灣模式雖然我們投資金額可能會很大之前傳說是介於日本跟韓國之間但是我們有台灣模式可是實際上台灣模式如果仿照什麼GDP在美國成立科學園區光一個台積電我剛剛就講了嘛營運成本節節上升那它會延待影響的大家的擔憂就是會不會掏空台灣啊會不會造成產能以及勞動力的外流我覺得這一些"},{"start":357.83,"end":364.198,"text":"都 到時候可能都要來處理啦大家都要深入討論啦 好不好好 好 好 謝謝謝謝好好 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外交部共同主辦的論壇請問一下這整個活動的邀請是由哪一個部會主導和安排還是你們都有怎麼樣的如何分工我們兩個部會會討論完之後再進行邀請"},{"start":58.752,"end":62.977,"text":"那據了解說今年我看了這個整個論壇是吸引了13個國家嘛13個國家來參與然後還有多位的國際重量級的學者到訪並分享了交流就是全球衛生社福領域的實踐的經驗確實是將台灣的健保還有醫療的優勢推向國際舞台和國際接軌的重要的平台"},{"start":79.554,"end":108.323,"text":"那請問你們這次邀請的總共有多少國家還有沒有被邀請沒有來出席的國家有沒有進一步了解為什麼他們不願意出席還是這些國家根本沒有參加的意願跟委員報告第一個事情其實我們這個論壇就像您剛所說從2005年辦到現在那當然我們除了原來就有的一些友邦國家在台灣的代表之外那包含他們自己本身譬如說這是海地的這個衛生部長又來好就是我們的"},{"start":108.903,"end":129.36,"text":"這一些友邦國家他們自己的衛生主管官員那另外今年很重要的事情是因為今年是我們健保30年那台灣的這個健保的finance他的這個整個保險制度在整個面臨到高齡少子化的挑戰全世界都有面對這樣的問題或很多的國家我們的可能沒有邦交但是我們有類似狀況的國家遇到這樣的問題"},{"start":129.98,"end":158.847,"text":"所以這一次我們今年事實上是由我們健保署這邊也出面來邀請很多在不論是公共衛生或者是在醫療專業還有包含就是在整個醫療財政方面的這些專家一起來那其實其中包含很多都是國際級的專家那這裡面當然有一些會沒有辦法來比方說他本身他的時間就有困難或者是他在他的哪些國家沒有辦法來呢這我沒有辦法我沒有辦法在這邊算給我因為可能比方說"},{"start":159.727,"end":182.749,"text":"比方說我們可能找了一個專家是美國的可能找了好幾位美國的專家可能有幾位有來有幾位沒有來好那沒關係而且像也跟委員報告譬如說有一位專家他是美國籍可是他代表的是歐盟那邊的這一個健康包含我們講的健康還有財務上的分析反而他還自嘲說他在他自己美國那邊他們在健康財務上面投資不如台灣等等所以這"},{"start":183.349,"end":203.35,"text":"這個狀況當然沒有辦法讓我先講一下就是這次的論壇其實當然是為了營造我國政府的官員和其他國家的官員檯面和私下的交流但是我這樣來看參與的政府官員大概有13個國家我國的邦交國有12個國家所以本席這樣仔細的整個核對之後根本是高度的重疊所以這個論壇看起來就像是"},{"start":205.812,"end":227.517,"text":"當然上面是寫國際接軌的國際論壇但實際上是根本就是邦交國在取亂其實我們這一次除了我們邦交國這一邊第一個事情我們還是要這樣強調邦交國這一些衛生部長跟衛生官員在WHO給我們非常多的支持他們幫我們做辯護他們幫我們做遊說這一些我們邦交國的這些部長我們衛生部長我們不可以說"},{"start":227.917,"end":230.779,"text":"當然啦在外交上面我們需要積極的突破啊而且我們跟他們有非常多的這些公共衛生跟醫療的援助跟合作就像剛剛林部長提到的我們幫忙他們建置很多智慧的醫療系統我們這個已經十年了我們要一直的突破不是一直在那邊跟邦交國"},{"start":245.13,"end":265.09,"text":"在跟您报告今年我们其他非邦交国包含有美国英国德国法国比利时波兰瑞士日本韩国我们总共有十个国家四十位国际专家这里面的专家包含了都是高阶的社福官员包含公共卫生领域这些非常顶级的教授或者是热带医学跟美国公共卫生协会的执行长"},{"start":265.871,"end":287.768,"text":"所以其實這樣講我們在這個論壇最重要的事情不是只有政治上面或國際外交上面最重要的一個精神是我們一直強調進WHO或相關的這些國際組織就是摒除國際社會在政治上對台灣的孤立而能夠在專業領域跟各國的專家在專業的立場上面分享我們的政策跟各國之間的困境"},{"start":288.889,"end":292.833,"text":"每年邀請的這些國家和外國的官員與會這樣我們除了會議交流之外有沒有什麼具體的雙邊的多邊的依偎上面的合作計劃呢就例如有沒有在簽署多少份MOU還是這些MOU的執行的進度和成效是怎麼樣報告委員我們簽署MOU這個部分其實MOU是簽我們有合作計劃"},{"start":308.971,"end":323.127,"text":"有合作的意願我想您了解那有這個意願之後最重要的事情是我們能不能落實後續的合作是啊但是我們每年是不是都要多多突破呢我們不可能永遠都是在這些"},{"start":324.348,"end":347.436,"text":"我們不是只有在全球健康論壇這裡我們包含我們提到了我們在WHA的會議期間因為讓各國的這些官員都在那裡所以我們在WHA的會議期間我們也有雙邊跟多邊MOU的簽署或者是後續的一些多邊的合作計劃那再來有些事情不是在這個論壇上簽而已他平常就在做的那我再問一下次長"},{"start":348.416,"end":351.978,"text":"照你這樣講的話這次美國日本歐洲這些有參與我沒有針對一些特定的問題一起來分享像健保的經驗還是醫療的照護還有醫藥的創新科技但是我這樣一看如果既然我們都是這樣想要跟國際接軌那日本這次也有參加然後日本也開放了緊急病藥在轉類上只是用藥讓民眾可以直接的取得而且讓民眾可以選擇生育自足"},{"start":377.088,"end":403.843,"text":"那結果台灣為什麼還不願意跟國際接軌呢跟委員這邊報告其實像這樣子的一場論壇裡面我們都會發現各個國家不論是它原來的各種法規或者是它國家裡面的醫療可進性還有醫療服務的模式跟相關的法規事實上都是不同的所以您所提到沒有錯日本可能有這樣子的一個制度在規劃台灣在您的推動之下我們也不斷的在跟相關的利害關係人以及相關的學協會在做討論因為你這個可能要盡快因為已經88個事件"},{"start":406.084,"end":411.546,"text":"88個國家都已經通過了每一個國家在相關的法規有不同的立場而且每個國家包含醫療可進性還有他們對於特定的專業領域之間的規範是不同的那我先問一下有沒有進展這邊我們持續還在溝通我想委員您也清楚這裡面在相關的我們講State Holder裡面學協會對於他的安全性還有在運用上面都有很多不同的意見"},{"start":430.154,"end":444.784,"text":"那這裡面因為各法規的不同所以我想我們這邊還在討論而且事實上就像您所關注到的指示用藥跟我們的處方藥不只是我們講的這個事後避孕這個案子事實上還有很多指示用藥跟我們的處方藥的政策我們也都一併在做檢討"},{"start":445.805,"end":450.486,"text":"好那我再問一個問題次長這個論壇是不是有特別強調與WHO關注的議題的連結還有為什麼台灣到現在還是沒有辦法正式參與WHA現在特別是請問一下衛福部還有那個外交部你們怎麼樣評估這一個這個論壇對爭取WHO和WHA的觀察員的身份到底有沒有幫助這是第一個問題第二個問題就是剛才沈伯陽委員也有詢問到"},{"start":471.212,"end":484.715,"text":"台灣是不是還可以再拚一次加入WHO那你認為台灣還有沒有機會再重返呢如果兩岸關係都一直無解的話我們要如何重返呢我覺得我想我這邊先報告就是說我們一再強調台灣在醫療專業上不論是在COVID-19期間或者是各式各樣的公共衛生跟我們的醫療服務的專業"},{"start":493.197,"end":515,"text":"我們在透過這麼多次不斷每一年的全球論壇或者是相關的學協會合作讓全球的專家都清楚知道台灣的專業跟能力那大家也越來越清楚讓台灣無法進到WHO這個重要的國際組織裡面協助全球的重要公共衛生業務事實上最大的阻撓是中共用政治的方式來影響全球得到好的公共衛生跟專業照顧"},{"start":516.381,"end":524.468,"text":"有沒有在努力呢所以我們不斷在努力可是當全球這麼多的國家在整個政治上面被中國在這邊的干預的時候我想大家很清楚問題出在中國而不是出在台灣因為我剛才有聽到次長在講說像這些大家都有在努力啦譬如醫生啊護理師公會都有努力啊但是我想是否可以納入藥師呢讓醫藥一心呢一同來努力因為怎麼不可能說都沒有機會"},{"start":541.442,"end":545.867,"text":"在好幾年前在立法院身份去參加我們WHA的視導的時候事實上當時藥師團體也有在我們每一年第一個事情跟委員報告全球這個我們在衛生福利部這一邊當然是以官方還有我們的一些團體的方式出去可是各團體"},{"start":562.006,"end":569.355,"text":"包含醫師公會、藥師公會全聯會護理師公會全聯會、牙醫師公會全聯會還有醫學生甚至包含我們醫學生的組織他們還曾經在國際社會組織裡面國際組織裡面爭取到擔任他們學協會的秘書長跟主席"},{"start":576.783,"end":596.851,"text":"所以這邊我們事實上也非常借重各位在專業領域的角色因為各位在專業團體內部不論是重要的國際會議或者是國際參與我們非常希望能夠來協助跟支持大家如果我們所有的這些學協會都在相關的國際學協會裡面都是秘書長都是常務理事都是理事長"},{"start":597.711,"end":624.345,"text":"那事實上我們實質在這些重要會議裡面我們都可以進入正式的會議去參加所以我現在也是要注意就是說其實大家都是一起想要為國家努力包括藥師啦盡量不要排除在外面報告委員我們絕對不會排除而且拜託您您現在是理事長所以也非常歡迎您明年可以帶著藥師團體一起去參加好那我再問一個問題就是說金本席了解現在國和會每年都有招募海外服務的工作團嘛有一個招募的簡章這樣但是"},{"start":625.365,"end":630.429,"text":"沒有明確的列出臨床藥師或藥學專業的需求那部長我想請問一下就是說為什麼沒有名列藥師的專業或者藥學專家的需求在這個簡章上面但是我又偏偏的留意到國和會的發表的電子報裡面附合作團的團隊中都有藥師參與在其中這些是怎麼招募來的還有例如巴拉圭還有圖瓦魯的醫療團請問一下這些醫療團的藥師是從哪裡來的"},{"start":653.067,"end":657.976,"text":"而且也沒有明確的列出需求那我想知道一下就是說這些藥師是怎麼樣知道這些資訊的好 我請次長跟我密算回應"},{"start":663.148,"end":689.756,"text":"跟委員先報告因為我自己就是國和會曾經支持的圖瓦魯醫療團的成員之一好那先跟委員報告就是等一下外交部可能可以補充我們在這些重要的邦交國的醫療援助服務裡面國和會給我們很多的支持那我們在各私立醫療院所協會有協調各相關的私立醫院或公立醫院去支援跟back up很多我們友邦國家的醫療服務那比方說像我們當時出去的時候我們自己醫院派出去的團一定會有藥師陪同"},{"start":690.876,"end":705.048,"text":"但是藥師陪同的角色事實上是協助當地醫療院所的藥師或當地的藥師增加他們的醫療能力增加他們的專業知能重點是培育他們的人協助他們的專業能力那就我們過去的經驗事實上是這個樣子以上先跟會員補充"},{"start":706.129,"end":710.892,"text":"那個主席再給我一分鐘一下還有一個就是說我們醫療團的團員還是志工不能用海外替代役取代嗎就是說也不是取代是他可以一起加入這樣因為國和會在外交替代役裡面在申請資格的專長中有關醫療的專長方面只有列醫學護理公共衛生還有醫療資訊還有營養這樣就是沒有藥學的專長"},{"start":731.024,"end":746.095,"text":"那之前你們有來解釋說這是因為他們國家沒有提出藥學的需求所以不需要藥學專長的外交替代役那我本身是建議外交部是不是要跟內政部討論一下爭取一下海外替代役是不是要增列整個藥學的專長呢好我們把他納入這一波對於外交替代役的改革裡面來做評估我們盡量來促成好謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"165721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9137b202f7bed51d9e7f94607883e6102ae8603fab3ff6def273e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:18:37 - 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谢谢主席 那我们是不是有请教育部次长先生次长喂好次长好"},{"start":12.85,"end":30.407,"text":"市長 我們現在行政院有一個框架叫做AI新十大建設所謂針對人才培育的方面就是認為說在2025年到2027年大概平均每年至少要增加3000到4000的AI的數位人才"},{"start":33.01,"end":62.155,"text":"那這個人才培育當然就是未來台灣的整個AI跟生活的一個落實在教育面當然是優先要的那我們教育部現在到底要怎麼來啟動我們不管是中小學他們如何去做AI的這樣的一個對學生的教育呢那是不是有請次長說明一下有關於您關鍵的人才培育是我們教育部很重要的政策以及發展"},{"start":63.291,"end":83.679,"text":"那在大学段这边如果只要是跟AIAI跟资通上面的有人才需求的科系那只要是他的生死笔在合乎条件的状况之下我们都愿意增加他的招生的名额然后详细的我请高教师说明"},{"start":84.327,"end":100.57,"text":"这是高教师我现在想要问的是我们怎么落实在中小学这一块那是不是请是跟我有没有报告就是我们教育部基本上我们就是国中跟国小是在建立学生AI的基础"},{"start":101.05,"end":127.489,"text":"那我們教育部推的讓他們知道使用AI嘛對 有兩大主軸對一個是透過AI來學習一個是學習AI所以透過AI來學習我們有開發教育用的AI工具然後同時讓他們用在各科的學習學習AI方面我們非常強調的是AI的使用要合理 正用 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跟委员报告就是我们刚才讲的其实老师的培训我们在今年年初的时候就已经开始在做所以这一个部分陆陆续续我们就是开始在"},{"start":237.92,"end":261.984,"text":"這個我想老師學習是很快啦因為老師馬上他只要有教材他就是知道要怎麼去教導學生那學生在學AI相對也是快因為他只要會用手機會用電腦基本上就知道怎麼去用AI但是AI所帶來的就是說包括剛剛講的倫理的問題包括怎麼去做深層式AI的訓練就是怎麼下這個指令"},{"start":266.145,"end":293.152,"text":"这个可能就是学生需要去学的这一块那我还有一个比较忧心的就是说因为我们现在AI大概就是说在学校端就是叫做我们有叫做数位前导学校那是这样的一个数位的一个前导学校在偏乡地区尤其是学生人数比较少的偏乡的学校有可能会让他导入AI的你们的数位前导的一个学校吗"},{"start":294.363,"end":312.47,"text":"偏鄉地區的還是會有機會他是前導學校他就有責任就是把他所發展的教材跟老師的教學經驗分享給其他的學校所以前導學校會先來訓練然後再分享到其他的學校"},{"start":313.29,"end":341.446,"text":"就是说我比较担心教育部应该去注意就是说未来整个AI的一些课程它如果过于变得说集中在比较都会区的学校的话是不是会造成更大的在教学上的城乡差距那这样的话我想对偏乡的小孩子他在学习AI上他可以得到的资源相对的少这个我觉得教育部是要注意的我们会特别注意我们会特别特别注意好谢谢好谢谢次长"},{"start":342.684,"end":346.236,"text":"謝謝蔡易瑜委員質詢 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針對兒少法權宜所規定的保障為了防止兒童與新少年接觸有害身心發展的網際網路內容"},{"start":1764.366,"end":1787.517,"text":"我们的相关的电信业者应配合我们在各部会所组成的网络内容防护机制iWIN上建立的防止儿少接触有害身心内容的机制针对防护机制不足的网站教育部在我们的TANET也就是我们的台湾学术网络会主导"},{"start":1788.8,"end":1802.467,"text":"我們的相關的載具這些網址目前已經阻擋了抖音跟小紅書相關短影音的網上網址包含抖音76筆 小紅書25筆等"},{"start":1808.085,"end":1831.71,"text":"最后教育部也提供了相关的数位工具包与三大业者合作我们提供了我们的家长在他们可以设定他们小孩子的手机过滤内容以及使用时间的管理机制来协助他们的子女避免接触到不当的网站的内容"},{"start":1832.87,"end":1861.741,"text":"第三点就培养我们校园的私生数位素养方面我们全国196,000个中小学老师均已通过A1、A2的数位学习工作坊目前已经有10%的老师已经通过了A3的真能课程这个真能课程包含数位教育"},{"start":1867.793,"end":1893.99,"text":"以及内容试读等演习教育部也建立了中小学数位素养教育网站里面有短音试读站抖音与小红书的专区提供私生有关网络沉迷试读以及辨识假讯息等的目前平均每天有13000人次在使用"},{"start":1894.89,"end":1920.791,"text":"我們教育部也定期的舉辦我們的資訊素養自我評量活動到今年為止已經有30萬人的私生參與那各地方所攀演的親子活場所我們也舉辦了許多短影音的宣傳活動那每年大概有一萬兩千人次的參加在我們的十二年國教課堂裡面已經將"},{"start":1922.853,"end":1929.059,"text":"科技與媒體素養列為核心素養透過課程的引導"},{"start":1930.647,"end":1952.123,"text":"引导学生分辨是非以分辨辨识养成正式的使用网络的能力那我们也透过了我们国民教育中央辅导团协助各地方的科技领域分团办理资讯伦理素养的教师研习团加强老师在资讯的安全的资能"},{"start":1954.226,"end":1979.029,"text":"我們會持續在這裡辦理第四點就培養我們校園的師生媒體素養教育部在112年發布了數位時代媒體素養教育排批書就是我手上這個已經分別提出三個三大方向分別包括是生化學校教育"},{"start":1979.75,"end":2000.951,"text":"拓展終身教育充實資源體制並推動忠誠計畫其中有7項策略、30個行動方案其中也持續收集短影音造假、侵權、假訊息的偏撥案例製作相關教材、引導老師在課程上使用"},{"start":2002.052,"end":2022.502,"text":"我們高中以下的教科書都依課綱編列裡面也包含了媒體素養等內容老師可以應用教科書及補充教材教學學生好好利用科技能力及辨識分析的能力"},{"start":2023.982,"end":2038.348,"text":"另外我们也协助老师规划课程推动教学引导从禁用分析创造反思行动等五面向适用在不同的年级的课程上"},{"start":2039.264,"end":2054.562,"text":"那我们教育部也每年办理中小学媒体素养研习营包含了如何辨识假讯息短音试行等议题以今年为例已经有一千多位老师已经受到这个参与我们会持续再继续办理"},{"start":2055.629,"end":2082.671,"text":"最后教育部委每年补助地方政府办理精进教学计划以将媒体素养列为课程113委立已经办了86场有将近4000位的老师参加今年已经规划了10场线上以提升教师教学能力另外在台湾北中南分别补助了五所高中"},{"start":2083.371,"end":2105.491,"text":"成立了媒體素養基地 協助就近的老師開發課程以設計教材分享他的教學經驗最後跟各位報告我們後續的精進作為我們會持續推動現有的計畫在防護方面將深化與iWIN的合作"},{"start":2106.452,"end":2128.508,"text":"配合调整台湾学术网络防护机制也就是我们的TANET我们在教育宣传上我们透过中小学媒体素养基地的计划刚才我提到就是有五个高中成立了教师专业学习社群来提高老师的教学能力以及辨识能力"},{"start":2129.709,"end":2151.176,"text":"我們也會跟各地方政府跟家庭家長團體共同合作宣導我們家長使用我們教育部提供的數位工具包提升家長與學生的數位素養強化學生在校外外的上網的安全防護"},{"start":2152.156,"end":2167.539,"text":"最後教育部希望感謝我們委員對我們校園安全網路安全及學生身心發展上面的關注我們會持續積極推動我們的校園防護以及數位媒體素養的教育"},{"start":2168.18,"end":2191.836,"text":"为了还是一样最后就要防止不当的媒体内容以及平台希望能导入我们学生正确的使用数位资源那以上报告谢谢我们各位委员给我们教育部的支持与指导谢谢谢谢刘次长的报告接下来请数位发展部湖北地主秘时间三分钟"},{"start":2195.708,"end":2217.426,"text":"主席各位委员今天受邀针对如何防范不当短影音及社群平台而上内容加强数位及媒体素养进行报告并就此向各位委员请意请各位委员不吝赐教书法部针对这个议题主要的做法有三项第一项是市井中置的APP存在高度的资安风险"},{"start":2218.499,"end":2235.704,"text":"那国安局法务部调查局跟内政部警政署刑事警察局依据本部发布的这个行动APP基本的资安检测基准已经针对这个抖音小红书微博微信及百度云盘等五款的中置APP进行检测"},{"start":2237.001,"end":2255.936,"text":"发现有包括搜集敏感资讯读取存储空间或者是逾越APP使用功能权限等六大的面向显示这个五款中置的APP在资安防护上有重大的疑虑所以我们会建议教育部加强宣导学生慎选使用"},{"start":2256.796,"end":2275.735,"text":"强化个人资安的防护第二个重点是游戏的分级管理那本部的素产署基于这个网络连线游戏的目的事业主管机关呢那我们有依据儿童及少年福利与权益保障法授权定定的游戏软体分级的管理办法"},{"start":2276.596,"end":2291.247,"text":"我们明定线上的游戏应该依照它的内容分为普及保护级-12-15限制级等5级要求这个业者要去做标识所以我们也要求大家要把这个分级的"},{"start":2292.568,"end":2319.39,"text":"資訊登錄在這個數位娛樂軟體分級查詢網可以供民眾來查詢各遊戲的分級那我們每年也會邀請這個小寶單位等等去針對這些市售的人們遊戲進行內容分級的視切性的審查那另外為了避免兒少接觸這些不適齡的遊戲內容那我們已經盤點一些限制級的遊戲軟體清單然後會跟教育部衛福部共同來"},{"start":2320.351,"end":2330.286,"text":"討論怎麼樣去加強管理同時針對好的遊戲我們也會透過資訊音樂台北電玩展等等相關的活動去辦理相關的宣導好的遊戲網站"},{"start":2332.318,"end":2354.73,"text":"最後一個是有關阻擋兒少性剝削的違法網站的部分那針對這些性影像的網站呢速發部已經建立跟跨部會合作的快速攔截攔阻的機制依照這個兒少性剝削的防治條例速發部運用DNS RPZ自律機制停止解析違法網站的處理參考程序"},{"start":2356.091,"end":2376.873,"text":"一旦经过法院判决或者卫福部等主管机关认定违法并通知限制接取出发部督管的TWNIC台湾网络资讯中心就会立即启动DSRPG的自律机制协调这些网际网络的接取服务提供者ISP停止截息该网域让民众没有办法连上这些网站"},{"start":2377.293,"end":2395.494,"text":"截至今年的10月底止已经成功拦阻了232件的违法网域这些供各位参考以上报告敬请指教谢谢谢谢苏发布的主密报告接下来请国家通讯传播委员会黄文哲主密报告时间三分钟"},{"start":2401.656,"end":2428.764,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生本會應邀列席本次委員會議僅代表本會提出報告如下本會作為通信傳播主管機關依《兒少法》46條規定為防止兒童及少年接觸有害其身心發展的網際網路內容召集各部地事業主管機關委託民間團體成立iWIN網路防護機構辦理兒少46條鎖定防護兒少網路安全七大事項包含申訴機制 過濾軟體"},{"start":2431.005,"end":2454.141,"text":"兒童及少年上網安全宣導等IWIN受理涉及違反兒少法制六條規定之網路內容申訴依據多方利害關係人所訂定之網路有害兒少身心健康內容防護層級歷史框架通知網路平台業者透過資歷機制來移除或為必要之處置"},{"start":2455.527,"end":2473.123,"text":"iWIN並且已經跟Meta、Google、TikTok、Line等大型平台業者我們也有建立綠色通道以其快速能夠自律由其自律處理而造不一致網路內容如果相關內容也涉及了違反相關法律的話iWIN也會將"},{"start":2474.444,"end":2497.471,"text":"這些違法的內容轉交法令權的機關處理如違反歷史框架的內容是在國外的話我們司法不是我屬於我國司法管轄權的範圍那我們也會將他的網址交由中華電信以及教育學術單位也就是他那個他他Net列為兒少不宜不宜接取名單之參考那IWIN持續"},{"start":2499.764,"end":2528.113,"text":"針對兒少網路安全辦理預防性宣導包含了每一年深入各縣市的國小國中對於學生教師辦理網路安全教育宣導並且在全國北中南東辦理大型宣導活動以及透過各類型數位宣導管道針對網路重要議題傳達兒少因如何自我保護留意網路陷阱熟悉各種求助方式及管道等訊息面對網路內容"},{"start":2529.173,"end":2555.629,"text":"可能帶來的危害提升國人數位素養仍然是根本之道本會也積極地提升就素養賠利方面的積極辦理從辦理比如宣導活動培養網路實用的還有媒體 嗜讀增進網路平台業者之法尊義士強化民眾對法令之認知推廣互相尊重之網路文化進而強化整體社會之網路傳播素養"},{"start":2556.309,"end":2575.477,"text":"又為了使家長及教師熟悉各社群平台之防護與隱私保護本會114年3月4號也召開延商網路平台兒少防護設定之宣告活動會議邀集教育部衛福部文化部數位部與內政署警政署等單位iWIN以及兒少"},{"start":2576.317,"end":2595.675,"text":"最常使用之MetaGoogleTikTok Line等網路平台業者共同提供意見整理前階四大平台之安全防護設定製作懶人包進行推廣與宣導我們將在114年也就是在今年年底前製作完成並透過本會的官網粉專及iWIN管道宣導"},{"start":2596.716,"end":2625.577,"text":"本會除了督導iWIN召集多方聯繫關係員會議外研議推動年齡驗證機制的做法之外也會透過公司協力促進平台業者完善自立規範鼓勵業者選擇最符合其服務特性且能夠有效避免兒少接觸不適齡內容的方式來建立兒少防護機制自源頭把關以上報告敬請指教 謝謝謝謝黃文哲主秘報告我們介紹一下在現場的委員柯之恩委員"},{"start":2627.537,"end":2638.216,"text":"外媒林委員 劉書斌召委那我們確定一下上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有 那議事錄確定"},{"start":2644.178,"end":2651.225,"text":"好 那我們現在進行詢答每位初期委員質詢時間6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘登記發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10時30分前提出並與本會委員"},{"start":2664.84,"end":2675.588,"text":"謝龍介委員質詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯之恩委員質詢謝謝趙貝爾我們現在請次長 劉次長請劉次長"},{"start":2688.968,"end":2708.978,"text":"次长好我想这是你第一次接受备询吗是的好 很紧张吗还好努力OK 好来 我们就直接来问这个问题因为针对今天的主题教育部的报告里面特别提到目前为止不管是小红或是TikTok大概是很多的学生最喜欢的那你教育部的立场是怎么样而且你们特别提到了"},{"start":2709.378,"end":2731.98,"text":"其實有包括一些減肥包括一些非常多自傷的行為其實會對孩子的身心特別對青少年造成一些的影響這是你們特別指出來這是不是國家的問題這是幾乎是世界的安全的問題我想請問你教育部的立場是什麼好的 謝謝委員關心教育部的立場剛才我口頭報告有講首先"},{"start":2733.135,"end":2749.826,"text":"快點 來 次長APP的話在校園學術網路是不能裝置的好 那次長對不起你不能裝置的話現在目前的孩子有非常多的都是吃到飽他可以不用教學校的網站但是他可以直接連到外面的網站所以你今天不能裝置他的手機還是可以照樣使用你這點你怎麼辦"},{"start":2750.746,"end":2771.912,"text":"这个就要另外一个问题就是说如果他有一些危害儿少法的一些网址我们就会透过iWin我知道但是我是说你说TikTok小红书小孩可以用他吃到饱然后外连着其他的一个Wi-Fi他还是有办法接收这些讯息所以你禁得了吗"},{"start":2773.014,"end":2794.801,"text":"第一个进不了但是我们会透过我们的素养教育刚才提过素养教育你刚刚有提到非常多不同的一个方法所以你现在是说在这个教育的现场就像我们像公务的现场里面我们没办法连到这些网站但是我的手机如果有吃到饱我自己的网路上我还是可以连得到这一点没有公务部门或是学习的场域都是没有办法进是的"},{"start":2794.981,"end":2822.892,"text":"那你教育部即使他们认为说对他们的申请可能会造成一些影响教育部的立场目前只是告诉你用不同的方法来宣导但是你也进不了是的你目前就是进不了也不打算全面进这个进不进的不是在教育部所以你目前立场就是宣导对不对好 那我们就看看你宣导到底可不可以你刚才也报告了有非常多的一些网站不好意思小红书小红书我今天美丽吗名字非常的好但是你从2024年开始到现在"},{"start":2824.213,"end":2850.354,"text":"现在我刚刚去看973应该加两个了因为我跟我助理上去看现在应该是975个人看了然后呢学士缴消息也是要使用小红书要预防诈骗目前为止呢大概是588以上的流量你怎么样来让大家可以由这个地方来去做这样的处理我只是随便举两个你当然有很多其他不一样的这个大概这个小红书的流量你后面要加好几个零吧"},{"start":2852.25,"end":2876.702,"text":"第一个我没有用我没有使用小红书啦我个人我知道我只告诉你的宣传管道而且你们到时候弄了你刚刚特别提到了有一些的告诉老师要做一些的宣导然后告诉老师有些研讨会我告诉你你在做这个研讨会的时候如何来辨识假讯息或是不要让孩子去上小红书等等之类的下面的老师可能每个人都在看小红书你不觉得这很讽刺吗"},{"start":2878.186,"end":2897.408,"text":"你可能上面在讲的是如何来区别然后下面每个人都是用TikTok每个人都在看小红书这个就是一个反差所以还是一句话网络成瘾或是大家喜欢看这种短移已经是非常困难如果你现实的人比不上网络里面的讯息我们根本一点办法都没有"},{"start":2897.748,"end":2924.453,"text":"家長一天到晚來告訴我們我們的孩子沉迷於網路那家長每次問的孩子都是你功課考幾分你今天如何這麼不有趣的大人你怎麼你怎麼抵得上這個我們網路裡面那麼瘋狂的一個世界不是嗎所以你們所提出這些方法到底有沒有用次長你有沒有想過我們全力我們身為教育單位我們教育主管機關我們應該是盡全力的去輔導引導老師跟家長你覺得你們現在能耐有辦法引導跟輔導嗎我們盡力而為"},{"start":2929.037,"end":2949.966,"text":"來我們來看一下那我們就用數據來說話謝謝來我們來看一下所以你們經歷來說話你們包括很多的素養的問題嘛對不對你的必修的時數啊等等之類的那我想請問次長你了解目前的成效到底是如何嗎你做了這麼多到底是你是融入還是融化掉啊我們都是課程的融入化是融入還是融化你覺得你有績效嗎"},{"start":2952.176,"end":2980.623,"text":"我们都是融入课程的我知道了我的融化是说因为你的融入是你们的目标但是你们达不到任何的基哨所以整个部分就变融化掉了好不好然后呢目前我们来看看这些我们很希望透过这些素养能够分配这些讯息但是呢很多人告诉你说很多的部分里面在课程的设计上面你是零散的融入因为零散的融入里面有一个主轴所以你的成效几乎是看不太到为什么看不到到数字告诉你来我们往下来看"},{"start":2981.303,"end":3008.823,"text":"你看你要告诉我们分辨一些讯息目前说2016是8632024的时候2000多增加了三倍然后我想请问一下次长你如果要透过这些媒体素养让孩子不要去受骗的话你知道他们的样态是怎么样受骗的样态是什么吗应该是很多元的像什么老人家是投资啊那青少年是什么就一些有关于影响到身心比如说自杀啊"},{"start":3009.537,"end":3028.283,"text":"不是這是受騙自殺不是受騙自殺是被訊息所感染會自傷自殺減肥現在是受騙因為你這邊有很大一塊是希望能夠分辨假訊息不要受騙我們現在回落在受騙你知道他的受騙的樣態是什麼嗎應該很多元吧我知道多元的什麼東西"},{"start":3029.98,"end":3043.939,"text":"比如說假的減肥啊青少年不會去買減肥藥好不好只有大人才會買瘦瘦症那個都不是受騙那是真正甘心被騙好不好所以我告訴你他的樣態"},{"start":3044.98,"end":3069.614,"text":"其实就是包括上网去买玩具上网去买游戏卡上网去买这些购物的时候他会被骗而且他这个受害的比率是非常的高的这是次长你一定要去了解你才知道媒体素养怎么弄我们再往上往下去看而且在这个地方里面你刚也提到了要强调你们教育部有一个媒体素养的白皮书五大核心能力七大策略三十个行动方案"},{"start":3070.214,"end":3084.969,"text":"说实在你也没有任何的成效指标所以我个人认为目前为止你可能只剩下一个口号这是提供次长做参考我的时间非常有限而且呢最主要的是因为你没有组织的科目你没有课时你没有教材你没有专任老师"},{"start":3085.609,"end":3108.484,"text":"所以这个部分里面来说的话你很难让这个部分里面看得到成果而且你对于数位落差这个部分你完全没有办法处理所以说你只停留在宣传宣传就是我刚刚所说的台上讲一回事台下就在做你宣传需要避免的事这才是一个政策跟实务上最大的一个落差然后呢媒体素养的政策到底每年变多少预算媒体素养的部分"},{"start":3115.185,"end":3133.5,"text":"告訴114年資訊及科技教育預算裡面72億市長你知道這個部分嗎那72億裡面有關於媒體裡面已經打散在不同的地方我們都到底放到什麼地方我們現在沒有辦法從你的項目科別裡面看得出來市長你可以告訴我嗎我馬上審預算了"},{"start":3134.96,"end":3149.841,"text":"我们应该分散在各个是 分散在各个地方变成地方都会非常小只沦为你用一个没有人看到的网站或者是我刚刚在说的很多的宣传很多告示老师的研讨会很多告示老师的工作坊"},{"start":3150.402,"end":3171.058,"text":"这些东西数量非常的小而且成效都不是太好所以今天给我这一份要提升媒体避免不当的这样子的一个网站我说实在教育部非常的薄弱好 请教育部次长你先休息一下我们请速发部跟我们的这个NCC过来一下谢谢我们时间很快那我想请问一下谢谢主秘"},{"start":3173.157,"end":3200.251,"text":"谢谢两位主密啊那我还是想请问一下你们现在是有这个iWIN的受大家的检举目前的介绍到底是如何跨部会的机制成立这样的部分来我们往下看所以说呢目前为止对儿少生性伤害的比率抒发波跟NCC实际封锁停止解析关闭或这样的部分比例的确有一些的进步的确有些进步无可否认但是还是不够而且下面"},{"start":3201.894,"end":3225.451,"text":"所有的申述案是翻倍的来成长结果你们告诉我们往下通常你们都是停留在通知业者改善通知业者改善做一些承载之后然后我们完全诉诸于业者来改善你觉得这样办法有办法二指我们刚所说的iWIN当初所设立跨部会最大的一个成效吗谁可以回答这个问题"},{"start":3226.445,"end":3249.696,"text":"那个跟委员报告因为从整个儿少法的规定来看的话通知他改善其实是自律启动的第一个环节第二个环节是如果假设他设有违法比如说里面比例多少比例多少而且呢目前来说呢有关于设计的部分都以情色问题为最多嘛对不对你们都是shut down的都是以情色问题占七成以上是"},{"start":3250.336,"end":3277.157,"text":"对不对青少年都是以情色问题占七成以上所以你们现在做法的部分里面就是交给业者来改善然后呢如果还是没有办法改善的话呢所以这个部分嘛民众解决爱问受理通知业者少部分放黑名单个案闹大像创意私房这些部分里面你们才做额外的处理但是以近三年有四成的案件当中没有主动的处置都是通知业者改善period结束"},{"start":3278.398,"end":3295.851,"text":"這叫保護兒少嗎七成的這樣子情色的這個網站當中最後除非是你被鬧得很大否則你們就是用這個方法來處理跟委員報告因為裡面有一些內容如果假設是兒少本身自己就是行為人的話這部分也必須要以保護兒少作為前提"},{"start":3296.531,"end":3317.83,"text":"所以除非是已经就是委员您说的已经是重大了涉及到整体的我们才会往后去送交警察或者是要送交警察你觉得这样办法有办法达到保护儿少的目标跟方向吗我说实在的我们不管对于数位部iWIN这种跨外我们都没有问题预算全部在支援是"},{"start":3318.45,"end":3345.603,"text":"但是到底有没有这样的一个成效我个人觉得在对境外平台到底开了几次行政该的行政指导多少的改善然后呢如果你没有做好你实际被划好那比率是多少还有我说实在的目前有没有更强制的一个做法比如广告限制业务限制部分功能停止如果没有的话平台的责任只是停留在一个非常浅薄的一个方向而已那我们怎么办"},{"start":3346.443,"end":3372.676,"text":"那個委員你剛才在說的其實就是它是整體的防護的機制的一環不過還不管怎麼樣還是以保護兒少作為前提後面的這些對於它的營運模式的這些限制那必須有其他的主秘我真的必須要說速發部我們願意給予更多的機會跟支持但是詐騙如果沒有任何的一個成效兒少在沒有辦法保護的話你看我們給予你們的經費當中2023年的估算保護這部分50億"},{"start":3373.937,"end":3399.362,"text":"国家通讯数5亿而且防护机构IWIN我们给2亿这些钱我们都会投入但是我们这样子问我们不希望到最后的结果只停留在我们就是通知业者然后后面还要接续这么多当你全部处理完的时候我们儿少的身心已经没有办法等待那么多这是在整个流程的快速的层面部分里面我们一定要请你们再继续跟委员报告因为在"},{"start":3400.302,"end":3413.632,"text":"金額估算部分可能稍微有點超過了不過確實是我覺得是在iWIN或者是兒照防護機制這邊的預算確實是要再提高不過確實不是我們可以提高但是你們基礎是不是也可以提高是 沒問題謝謝客徵委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":3432.23,"end":3459.291,"text":"好 謝謝召委我們有請劉次長請劉次長次長早我看到教育部的報告我整個看過一次那這其中你有指出說短影音跟社群平台的內容與演算法對於未成年的學生的身體健康跟資訊素養構成嚴峻的威脅並直指就是抖音跟小紅書 對嗎"},{"start":3461.325,"end":3480.593,"text":"好 那除了抖音有短影音之外其他的這些包括YouTube、IG或者FB、Chat上面也都有短影音為什麼我們沒有去注意到還有其他這些APP裡面這些社群平台我們完全沒有要去管理我們只針對抖音跟小紅書 為什麼"},{"start":3481.755,"end":3496.203,"text":"我們只是舉例事實上只要違反兒少法的但你沒寫啊次長回答 謝謝這個我們會事後相關研究"},{"start":3497.203,"end":3517.601,"text":"我們的參考文件上面有寫所以這個我是要提醒次長就是說你如果讓大家覺得你的針對性很強或者是教育部的態度認為只有小紅書跟抖音裡面的內容會有傷害到兒童身心的兒少身心其他都不會我想應該不是這樣的態度對不對不是"},{"start":3519.763,"end":3536.668,"text":"剛剛有特別講教育部你的態度你剛剛有講抖音的東西進不進不在教育部剛剛本席把你記下來進不進不在教育部但是第一個你的立場很重要次長我請教你你今天代表教育部來備詢進不進抖音這件事情你的立場到底是進還是不進"},{"start":3539.312,"end":3563.331,"text":"我們在學術網路上學術網路上是不行的學術網路上是不是用的因為我們教育部也只能管到這一部分好這個是你的立場接下來我們就要談到怎麼去管理這件事情你說我們要禁對孩子有身心傷害的相關的這些APP抖音等等不是針對單音那你想想看你要管理的有這麼多非常的多"},{"start":3564.292,"end":3592.441,"text":"我们看到教育部的报告当中有提到说我们要提供家长因为呢等一下我们来谈谈看老师你要知道啊你的一个态度或者你的一个立场你知道要盲翻了我们基层所有的教师啊要盲翻我们基层所有的教师啊但我们先来看家长的这一块你说报告上提及说家长我们会提供他免费的网络管理跟防护之数位工具包嘛对不对那这个呢你把它放在哪里啊"},{"start":3593.055,"end":3616.708,"text":"我們是結合了我們三大你把它放在哪裡啊這工具包放在哪裡可以看到我們部裡的官網而且我們也結合了三大電信業者我們希望他們家長也可以去那邊來你現在的工具包目前告訴我們說你放在教育部的資科室的官網嘛對不對好次長自己上去看過了嗎沒有沒有為什麼不看我會去看"},{"start":3618.412,"end":3633.986,"text":"要去看我們看一下我覺得有點慘不忍睹你看到我們資科斯本身的官網我隨便舉說我們之前在資科斯官網上面有三支教學影片我們就看那三支教學影片觀看的次數人次367次最多的1900人次然後424次"},{"start":3640.712,"end":3664.867,"text":"你看人次數這麼少喔莫非啊你還先要對不起喔後面兩位你不要干擾次長悲尋喔你這樣很干擾次長喔那個莫非你現在是要先請大家先熟悉先了解先宣傳說來來來大家先來我們資科室的官網再從官網裡面告訴他說你們再來看那我們怎麼去宣導大家要來怎麼做網路的防護跟管理"},{"start":3665.627,"end":3685.167,"text":"這多此一舉啊所以你自己官網上面其實瀏覽的人次這個成績是很不理想的那你又怎麼去宣導呢所以我今天要跟您提的是說我們如果今天要去提供家長這樣的東西我恐怕你不是只有單靠資科斯這一點必須跟您提然後我們再來討論到剛才講得沸沸揚揚的"},{"start":3688.05,"end":3704.544,"text":"我包括這本剛才我看次長您剛剛是照這本來念的嘛對嗎我感覺您念的蠻吃力的然後也蠻辛苦的好那這裡面不管是你看到來第一項我們說我們要來管理那這個管理就像剛剛講的我們就說"},{"start":3706.305,"end":3723.863,"text":"不得安裝但是沒有針對如果今天孩子的手機上他有吃到飽你要怎麼去做管理你只有說不得安裝然後再來往後去看我們剛剛的工具包看來這個工具包現在還沒有去普及那我們再看到第二項的部分培養校園師生素養"},{"start":3726.846,"end":3750.532,"text":"要幹嘛 辦理教師真能研習 講師培訓然後再往下我們建制中小學數位的教育資源網要叫老師也再來研習然後再往下看我們還要定期辦理資訊素養自我評量的網路活動誰來處理 老師要來幫忙然後我們再來看到我們把這個相關的素養放到12年國教的核心素養"},{"start":3751.132,"end":3768.219,"text":"我相信如果在12年國教的這個核心素養裡面也是我們老師在第一線那最後剛才還提到說本席很認真看你的報告上面還寫說我們要來做這個媒體素養基地學校現在有幾所了有五所有五所 哪五所"},{"start":3770.376,"end":3792.393,"text":"我背不出來你背不出來好吧 那來救一下市長吧有分別是師大附中竹南高中中興大學附農還有上化高中以及新化高中那為什麼只有五所他們是種子學校那什麼時候這個種子要把它分產出去"},{"start":3793.032,"end":3821.068,"text":"他每年都在做他依據他地區然後把附近的學校一起進來這個效果做到現在好嗎114年今年才開始做的現在才開始做的剛才我們看到整個相關的預算經費大概高達了72億那您剛有說就是分散在很多地方本席聽到以後其實也蠻擔憂的分散在很多地方會產生幾個問題第一個就是每一個部"},{"start":3821.428,"end":3840.9,"text":"一個單位我不知道你分散在哪裡大家都要共同來沾一點沾一點這一件事情然後呢再來呢大家怎麼分工然後又怎麼樣去做一個就合作我覺得我都沒有看到所以這個在預算的時候呢我們可能要再來討論一下不是說你把72億然後分散在每個地方這裡一點那裡一點"},{"start":3841.4,"end":3868.892,"text":"那成效會好嗎那再者我認為大家都知道現在我們的老師其實工作壓力已經非常非常的大了如果按照你剛剛講的我請教你一下現在你針對抖音抖音再問你一次進得了嗎我在想到抖音不是我在進的不是教育部在進的我現在問您您覺得進得了嗎因為教育現場最了解如果你告訴我教育現場不了解這題我就不問了"},{"start":3870.27,"end":3891.379,"text":"我的確是說進不了進不了嘛對抖音進不了那如果今天抖音進不了我們要用什麼方式讓孩子去學學習他怎麼去做一個自我管理我只是講啦其實我們身為大人你說叫大家說不要去看抖音不要去看小紅書我都不好意思問大家說今天在現場的完全沒有看過小紅書的請舉手"},{"start":3894.084,"end":3909.117,"text":"我剛才說我都沒有要問啦結果你們就舉手了你們真的很自動自翻喔完全沒有看過小紅書的喔我說實在話啦 我也是不太相信啦因為現在小紅書真的很多人在看那好 那剛剛沒有舉手的那是怎麼樣"},{"start":3911.043,"end":3923.304,"text":"也會看到所以你要怎麼禁我覺得這個要去思考一下當政策下來要教育部去對這麼多的老師對這麼多的教職人員對這麼多的學生你說我們要禁"},{"start":3924.346,"end":3950.655,"text":"我覺得如果是沒有辦法去禁的時候你教育部應該是要提出一套你的看法而不是完全接收人家要你這麼做你就硬著頭皮預算編下去就開始弄其實收不到成果的所以今天以上其實本來還有很多其實大家可以要討論的我只有一個結論如果說我們一個政策下來今天是為孩子好不管是他要看抖音看小紅書看臉書等等很多"},{"start":3951.055,"end":3966.396,"text":"我們希望他不要受到傷害我們希望他不要受到詐騙這個是對我們的初衷而不是只針對哪一個APP哪一個平台來做我覺得這樣就偏頗了所以我們要開大門走大路來為孩子去著想"},{"start":3967.037,"end":3983.142,"text":"不只是抖音不只是小紅書其實臉書也有發生過這樣的事情所以臉書其實更大眾在使用那到底要怎麼做我建議教育部好好回去想一想今天速發部也好NCC也好他們有這樣的想法執行在誰在教育部"},{"start":3984.002,"end":4009.118,"text":"在教育部你不要上面這個政策下來你做不好底下下去這些老師對你會怨聲載道所以我希望教育部回去以後好好思考一下這些預算告訴我們一下你到底準備怎麼用才可以讓孩子達到可以有自我去管理怎麼樣去運用在網路使用上面不要去受到傷害所以這個會後希望在預算審查之前給我們一個報告好不好會的謝謝"},{"start":4012.287,"end":4031.317,"text":"謝謝萬美齡委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請劉書斌召委質詢有請政事 教育部政事請劉次長"},{"start":4037.941,"end":4062.553,"text":"好 次長好今天我們討論這個議題是非常重要都希望說兒少有一個安全的環境來使用當然也必須要去避免到過度的管制而且要避免到用禁止來去代替教育所以今天的內容是在於說不當的內容那因此就首先要問的是教育部這一部分如何去判定不當的內容"},{"start":4063.553,"end":4072.431,"text":"那這個目前教育部是不是在管理內容啊是不是用學校裡面的iWIN跟不當資訊系統來做防護是不是"},{"start":4073.933,"end":4092.482,"text":"首先分開兩個再強調如果是APPAPP的話在我們學術網路上是不能裝置抖音跟小紅書的因為它是大陸製的轉硬體對 你們是用它的平台或是它的APP對不對APP那是不能裝的這清楚了我現在說的是不當內容如果不當內容的網站"},{"start":4095.003,"end":4118.761,"text":"的內容透過iWIN或透過iWIN的機制我們會那剛才有講可是內在學術網路當中出現的嘛對不對在學校在學校裡面的話他剛才已經有提到的如果他自己有這些的使用的網路他根本就不要受到這個影響那我們繼續往下看今天最重要的事要講的是不當那這個不當的標準是什麼我們看到你在說的有"},{"start":4119.562,"end":4132.799,"text":"包括色情 暴力 恐怖 血腥 危險的內容跟有害行為的部分呢通通都是要做進行那特別你們還做了一個收集到黑名單嘛 對吧那這個黑名單當中呢 目前有哪些名單啊"},{"start":4137.22,"end":4161.162,"text":"跟會員報告 這個黑名單其實是非常多不只是我們教育部主動發現如果一般的民眾 老師 學生有做這樣的同胞但是對 很好你這些名單但是 重要的是如果有被黑名單的話是不是要有經過一個機制實在是重點的就是透過iWIN透過iWIN但是iWIN的標準是什麼我們繼續往下看這邊裡面呢 我說如果一部短影片當中我等一下繼續問到它裡面的內容"},{"start":4162.563,"end":4173.693,"text":"如果一個短影片裡面有持槍射擊伴隨著不雅詞彙因為還有這算不算不當內容我們就來看一看這是這些你們的標準在這裡可是因為很含糊其實沒有辦法去做我們現在看它裡面的內容"},{"start":4174.773,"end":4177.775,"text":"好 這時候我們繼續再往下看這個地方設計到的槍支操作跟設計爆裂就次長你來看這是不是屬於不當的內容"},{"start":4204.344,"end":4228.793,"text":"各位報告事實上任何的經過檢舉的網址或網站透過iWIN它會有一個審查機制審查機制那還有情節的重大輕重所以你們就等一下跟他講每一天有三千萬隻在網路平台上面你們要花多少的能量去做這些事情這就是效率的問題你們針對的目標事實上都不明的問題我們繼續再往下看一個很好笑的"},{"start":4230.794,"end":4248.292,"text":"你拿大槍 我拿小槍所以這樣的話算你陣亡好 你就先下去唉唷 這樣子囉蛤 原來小手槍還可以這樣子用喔這是人們很喜歡看的小孩子都很喜歡看欸 我拿小槍 你們拿大槍你們陣亡媽啦 這麼遠算喔不要跟他計較他也只是個孩子"},{"start":4249.338,"end":4264.887,"text":"你們幹嘛我拿小槍我最大你們拿大槍你看這樣的行為我們繼續往下看就停一下這算不算不當的內容"},{"start":4268.462,"end":4296.547,"text":"無法進來現在馬上回答不出來這其實就是你看剛剛對我那個涉及的情況是那都還會造成受傷的情形我們繼續看那到底誰來判定呢教育部剛剛你說IWIN對不對IWIN這些部分還有AI防不勝防三千萬支一天在所有的這樣的平台當中我們繼續往下看另外我們看到教育部長在10月份的時候有被立委問到他說抖音這些有這種不當的訊息傳播"},{"start":4297.947,"end":4308.716,"text":"也有不當的性別障礙 但是最重要是有許多跟學習比較無關的內容也會從這邊拿去做相關的設計但請問一下 連學習無關也要當作是一個要不就禁的內容嗎"},{"start":4310.8,"end":4328.472,"text":"這是部的立場還是個人部長的立場我想委員部長講的是針對我們教育部的學術網路他那部分對一般的網站並沒有這樣子所以你剛才呈現到教育部只能在學校裡面的使用用Tenet來去進行影響對不對"},{"start":4330.373,"end":4353.183,"text":"排除掉 但是在一般的人們當中都沒有嘛這就是非常招人問你 你們就是防不勝防一直做了無效的動作啊 可是等一下當然最重要就是在媒體素養的部分啦 我就跟大家講包括 等一下想 剛剛在說學校那在家長層面你們有數位工具包那就讓下載去進行 那請問推廣的成效如何 下載數如何 使用率又怎麼樣現在有評估了嗎"},{"start":4355.151,"end":4364.657,"text":"那個我們我剛才有看到一個數據我們數回包一天有一萬多看一下一天有一萬多啊這麼熱門嗎這數據要經過認證的喔暫時間暫停一下"},{"start":4370.208,"end":4386.901,"text":"現在目前我累積的那個是這樣那個數位包上面到6月份到現在已經有1萬5千人瀏覽了1萬5千人有沒有下載 瀏覽跟下載是一回事吧你沒有下載你怎麼去處理啊"},{"start":4387.621,"end":4403.796,"text":"不好意思委員我補充一下我們的數位工具包它是一個操作手冊那就是提供家長有那個iPhone的手機或是其他Android的手機怎麼用手機有的那一種家長防護親子帳號的功能去做這樣的一個"},{"start":4404.397,"end":4420.026,"text":"但是你沒有辦法 你是他有瀏覽但是沒有辦法認定說他的使用率會足夠對不對你沒有做後面的後續嗎是 委員這方面我們會盡力去好 這就涉及到你的預算了你有沒有效果 事實上這部分是應該要打大找舌扣的大家這個分級的部分 那請一下速發部的主秘"},{"start":4428.567,"end":4439.872,"text":"是 委員好請問一下你們有提到說今年年底的時候要提出建立的這個APP的分級制度有這個危害兒少的疑慮的部分那請問現在的進度如何"},{"start":4445.111,"end":4462.338,"text":"這個APP的分級制度如果是我們部長之前有提到的那我們就會在年底以前就把這個東西妳好像很不熟悉不是嗎我們現在是有在盤點這個相關遊戲的年底現在不到一個半月了耶有有有那我們現在其實主要是透過兩種方式啦一個是"},{"start":4464.219,"end":4487.877,"text":"危害这个国安的部分来处理另外是游戏分级的主要的部分来处理这样子主要是从这两个面上那你们分级会大概分成几类就分成这两类吗大概是好 这一部分应该时间到了所以这边你们应该其实应该很快要有这个报告出现给北本席那当然就是刚才那三个部分的话这三支我们现在只放两片而已啦请问这算不算不当内容"},{"start":4489.648,"end":4509.411,"text":"這個要有專業的判斷對就是因為今天是不當內容就是可以都可以去做沒有人判斷的沒有人做一個標準判斷的話就形成會過度的去限制尤其是剛才所說的一個創意的這個內容上面其實我剛才還問一下教育部或是現在問一下速發部這邊如果是真的學習有害的部分像"},{"start":4509.972,"end":4530.006,"text":"我們再看到的K-POP他們這種很多創意的那種它跟學習可能學習無關這部分可能都被禁掉了所以請兩個部說三個部會通通要對它是不是哪些是真正叫不當內容必須要提出來真正的一個標準出來這部分進度哪裡編在哪個項目我們繼續往下看這不剛才說的每天有三千部的"},{"start":4530.646,"end":4560.007,"text":"三千萬隻的影印在這裡請教育部跟速發部這邊都要清楚怎麼去編啊怎麼去管啊 實在是沒有效的啊那我們繼續再往下看所以請教育部跟速發部要提供的這個書面報告給本席明確的定義跟清楚的規劃速發部這邊可以嗎可以啊好 在今年年底之前有新的APP的情形執行那我們再繼續再往下看的是說屬於教育部的次長請由次長到這邊來謝謝 謝謝速發部的主秘"},{"start":4561.994,"end":4574.318,"text":"很重要的剛才所提到的講到了媒體素養 科技資訊等等這跟數位素養都是一樣的嗎定義是一樣的嗎 不一樣吧那你可以說出來一個嗎科技素養跟媒體素養 差異性"},{"start":4576.391,"end":4603.103,"text":"科技素養是代表全面性的科技資訊素養屬於數位學習跟AI那一部分那媒體素養不是 我是資訊素養對 那我覺得那媒體素養媒體素養就是讓師生多了解還有家長多了解所謂的是變成什麼是假訊息還有一些對 所以如果市長我問一個非常重要的問題在我們108課當當中有一個科技資訊與媒體素養"},{"start":4606.524,"end":4632.824,"text":"這裡面當中其實啊你剛才所說的科技啊還包括的是數位啊這些部分最重要其實就是在媒體的素養就是它的視讀能力對不對但是你們在編預算的時候我們往下看啦這邊已經講到的師大林玉鵬教授說呢導致的因為定義不清楚這是媒體的素養這部分不清楚而且形成了這樣很多的額外的負擔容不上各個教育領域是分散的更重要的是因為它定位不明"},{"start":4633.524,"end":4656.952,"text":"你們剛才說的四個 其實媒體只有十七種 可是最重要是在媒體的部分教育現場是無所適從啊 還更重要的是有沒有看到把他的預算拿出來看的時候啊就以你們這麼多頁的這個 付的一百一十五年就是我們等一下就要審的部分就可以看到用媒體素養下去看的時候才零欸以這個預算才零欸 可是事實上你們可能編在三部在各個地方 那請問一下一一五年到底你們編的多少"},{"start":4661.052,"end":4681.682,"text":"跟委員報告我們媒體素養部分在115年化是將近4000萬的部分在做推動那是有個專門的地方呈現出來嗎不好意思因為它這個經費化是在各個市處的部分這部分確實要請要做報告出來不然你們預算的時候這是看不到你又是剛剛您說的這麼重要的媒體素養才是試圖能力才是重要的嘛"},{"start":4682.242,"end":4703.801,"text":"好 这部分我们继续往下看的是如果这边的把请教育部一定要注意到媒体素养那个相关这个独立的项目必须要把它独立出来特别就是你要做个加注不然是没办法去认识出来的那这边呢我们又看到的是现在可能真的看到的是媒体素养已经变成一个附属的概念包括是怎么样的一个成效测证时数跟学习减和指标"},{"start":4704.742,"end":4719.288,"text":"應該要提出來是在預算的時候一定要做出來一定要補上來目前或說現在有沒有有沒有這樣的一個這些時數跟課程減和指標我們是應該都有我們都有都有課程的都有相關的課程那你學期減和指標有嗎"},{"start":4724.996,"end":4740.009,"text":"沒辦法進行所以就是沒有嘛既然的媒體素養這麼大 識別這麼重要才是最後把關的部分應該把這邊的檢核指標呈現出來不然是沒有效的包括現在所講的 識讀才是重要的關鍵那我們最後希望是說"},{"start":4740.99,"end":4769.21,"text":"包括了這些課程當中這個去年是100112年有94場113年有86場次數都還比較少場次比較少這個對於教師的培育也是不夠的數量不增房減這是事實喔這部分也要去知道這個效果那最後就是剛才效果已經知道這個包括這些部分的數值指標教育基地學校你剛才說好像只有4所如果我這樣看的話我幫你找出來了事實上有這麼多所114年有46所這邊都是需要這樣加強的最後就是"},{"start":4770.991,"end":4785.303,"text":"我要最後做一個結論再來說支持兒少的對於他們保護在網路上面的不能把它寫成禁止跟屏蔽你定義一定要做清楚啊制度一定要這樣完整沒有效的三千萬隻怎麼會問你們現在用的禁止平台"},{"start":4786.184,"end":4809.27,"text":"家學校能夠管可是其他他還有很多地方家裡甚至他自己用手機就可以培養執行你要有效要有績效的部分教育也要到位特別的老師的部分課程的部分通通要讓他以教育回到你最大的本位好嗎是的好這邊是不是能夠給這個部分是不是在12月中旬給一個報告是會的會的好OK好謝謝大家一起加油謝謝劉淑斌詹委之詢官員請回座"},{"start":4814.758,"end":4836.757,"text":"接下来请叶元之委员咨询主席好 麻烦请那个次长教育部次长委员好"},{"start":4838.407,"end":4854.095,"text":"那個次長好今天大家討論那個題目教育部的報告裡面是講說抖音小紅說很恐怖所以要兩個方法一個方法就是學術網路要禁第二個方法是加強有關於相關的試讀能力對吧"},{"start":4855.373,"end":4868.54,"text":"大概是這樣吧是的那我接下來要跟你討論一下如果說講到社群媒體可能會對小朋友的影響應該是不同的媒體都會有吧對不對是的那特別但是我不知道為什麼教育部第一個"},{"start":4870.097,"end":4899.294,"text":"在上個月特別針對小紅書發了一個叫做不迷小紅書青春不迷返的一個專區就是只有針對小紅書做專區那我有看到上面你們列了一大堆其中很大一部分都在講說小紅書裡面有很多詐騙行為市長知道這個事嗎是的 有知道那麼這樣讓我的感覺是怎樣就是好像小紅書只有詐騙其他社群都沒有詐騙我們事實上也對其他的但是沒有專區啊"},{"start":4900.646,"end":4913.86,"text":"沒有專區啊所以你今天只宣布你今天只在這個地方成立專區那大家會產生一個錯覺啊覺得他詐騙特別嚴重然後其他好像就還好大家就有這個錯覺啊其他怎麼沒專區"},{"start":4914.813,"end":4932.9,"text":"我們在臉書跟IG都有相關的什麼有專區喔其實跟委員報告就是如果針對短影音的這個教育或是社群平台的教育社群平台教育我們也有那個臉書IG的專區沒有啊你們也沒有特別宣傳啊我也都查不到啊是"},{"start":4933.5,"end":4947.874,"text":"委員這個部分我們主要是以那翠有沒有專區如果委員建議這個我們回去可以再加強你們現在說小紅書的詐騙很嚴重嘛400多件嘛你知道翠的詐騙幾件嗎"},{"start":4949.434,"end":4970.527,"text":"你看這個是你們特別發文給各個學校啦然後有學校在網路上把它貼出來啦就說因為根據警政署165打詐疑標板縣市案例列有423件使用小紅書遭詐騙的案例423件 知道萃幾件嗎你知道昨天萃有幾件嗎猜一下 市長你猜一下"},{"start":4971.84,"end":4988.345,"text":"應該數萬件吧昨天的萃我查了六千四百六十六件這個就是警政署的打炸儀錶板結果你弄一個小紅書專區說他炸變嚴重四百二十三件結果萃六千四百六十六件沒專區"},{"start":4990.049,"end":5012.917,"text":"我覺得教育部那個標準相當奇怪所以如果你是要以詐騙假訊息這種角度禁止或者是提供試讀能力的話我不知道這個只針對小紅書或者是抖音是不是政治考量啊並沒有 我們真的沒有那為什麼你看以詐騙來講的話光一天就6466件你卻沒有陳寗專區"},{"start":5017.867,"end":5029.185,"text":"我們事後會專程...事後?所以沒有來質詢就沒有?就很奇怪嘛這個標準很怪嘛很怪嘛然後第二個喔"},{"start":5030.177,"end":5055.032,"text":"你剛剛是講說因為會有資安問題所以特別要禁抖音跟小紅書那我問一下主要是因為抖音跟小紅書是中國大陸那邊的對吧覺得會有資安問題那如果以後這兩家社群忽然間不屬於中國大陸的話那就不禁了嗎基本上是的是是不是所以因為現在Ttalk確定會變美國抖音"},{"start":5056.257,"end":5079.175,"text":"所以只要在TikTok變成美國抖音的那一刻TikTok就解禁了教育部的立場是這樣我們的立場是依據我們今年九月通過的治安法上面是說不能裝置或錄製中國大陸製的資通訊軟件沒關係 我就確認一下嘛所以這個抖音變美國抖音就解禁"},{"start":5080.91,"end":5108.25,"text":"所以換句話說今天教育部去禁抖音跟小紅書其實你們比較重視的是治安的問題啦對於你們報告裡面寫一大堆什麼假消息啊 詐騙啊什麼那個小朋友看了訊息之後看了訊息會進入一個兔子洞然後因為社群會不斷推播他有興趣的東西他會一直看下去嘛其實這個東西在所有的社群都是這樣這是演算法的問題所以你們比較重視的治安但至於說其他部分主要是要透過試讀來解決"},{"start":5110.411,"end":5139.295,"text":"我事實上還根據兒少法我們也在乎他有沒有一些內容違反到法律是不禁止的啦我說法律禁止都不行嘛法律禁止都不行我是說在法律禁止之外你們比如針對成癮或者是其他的部分你們是透過試讀嗎叫他們不要一直看嘛沒有那個OK OK那除了社群之外現在教育部留著NCC可不可以上來一下NCC也上來一下"},{"start":5141.524,"end":5166.931,"text":"這個我認為啦你們如果要推廣嗜讀現在嗜讀其實社群其實只是一個部分啦電視新聞還有各種廣告都一樣我來跟NCE跟教育部請教一下這是在前一段時間網路上非常紅的一個影片那時候宣傳罷免這個爸爸叫小朋友趕快去做功課小朋友說國家亂七八糟我讀書有什麼用啊"},{"start":5168.179,"end":5189.786,"text":"那時候讓大家發現文革時代的那種思想出來了天大地大沒有毛主席大讀書算什麼救國才重要所以要搞罷免請問一下站在教育部的立場次長你贊同這樣的觀點嗎就是爸爸叫小朋友讀書然後小朋友說讀什麼書啊我要去搞罷免啦你站教育的角度你贊成這樣的觀點嗎"},{"start":5190.819,"end":5206.398,"text":"我教育的人 我是教育的人我不對這件事情有個人的comment不是 我問你贊不贊成不comment 你在質詢耶你來背詢耶 可以不comment喔這個你怕得罪那些罷免方喔"},{"start":5207.876,"end":5236.255,"text":"不是啦 這跟教學無關學校老師在叫學生讀書學生說我不要做功課了因為我要有政治活動我要去從事政治活動各位有沒有老師要從事任何的政治活動我們尊重個人的行為所以教育部連說家長叫小朋友做功課小朋友說我不要做功課 我不要讀書了國家亂七八糟 念書也沒有教育部都覺得OK"},{"start":5237.456,"end":5259.933,"text":"站在教育部次長的角度覺得這樣是OK的我尊重教育部啦這就是我們的教育部嘛就是大家可受公平嘛因為這是你的價值觀嘛這是你的價值觀你的價值觀就覺得這樣子的事情你是可以允許的嘛沒有關係啦我不知道為什麼你這麼害怕得罪罷免方啦如果是我我就會覺得可以這樣子嗎做出超級錯誤的示範"},{"start":5261.474,"end":5283.457,"text":"如果一百個小朋友裡面大家全部出來爸媽叫小朋友做功課小朋友都說不要啦 我有什麼事情啦比做功課還重要啦或什麼 我要去搞罷免啦你覺得OK的 次長是覺得OK的這種示範作用 次長是覺得OK的這就是我們的教育部啦我沒有說OK啊那你覺得可不可以我沒有說OK你覺得沒有不OK 也沒有覺得OK"},{"start":5284.463,"end":5307.767,"text":"你只是不敢表達意見市長啊你是教育部欸如果你今天是民進黨發言人的話你不表達意見我沒有意見啦你是教育部教育部面對這樣的事情你都可以說我沒有意見那你在那邊講什麼嗜讀啦如果牽涉到所有價值判斷都在講說我沒意見那你幹嘛講嗜讀你就說尊重大家的判斷就好了啊"},{"start":5308.157,"end":5335.285,"text":"沒有 我還是承諾這跟教學有沒有關係如果與教學學習無關的那我們就不應該請問家庭教育跟教學有沒有關係難道老師在學校教學生不希望家長也可以配合嗎做功課 如果說小朋友不做功課不希望教小朋友把功課做好嗎這怎麼會跟教育沒關係不要越講越誇張啦再來接下來 我來問一下這個NCC啦跟教育文化委員會有關的"},{"start":5336.667,"end":5355.564,"text":"我們 我相信召委雖然跟我不同黨啦但是大家很清楚啦有的時候有一些委員因為選區有一些學校可能設備真的很不OK會排考察去看一下那個選區的學校找教育部官員去了解一下這個在我們委員會應該很正常吧民進黨的召委也有幫民進黨的立委排過"},{"start":5356.735,"end":5375.742,"text":"很正常吧結果有名嘴或節目主持人在講說怎麼會去考察呢那個時候我去國中考察結果他說怎麼可能會我去國小考察怎麼會去國小呢要也是去國中啊然後這個講一大堆然後還有名嘴繼續講說什麼這個下一頁"},{"start":5380.247,"end":5406.318,"text":"他說很掉漆啊去什麼地方單位都沒來明明地方縣市教育局都有來但是直接在電視上說沒來然後說好奇怪喔如果真的是考察的話國民黨議員怎麼都沒來我問一下那個 趙偉趙偉我可以問一下我們委員會的主秘嗎主秘上次我們有去現場有沒有地方的官員有沒有"},{"start":5408.069,"end":5430.57,"text":"有吧 詢問一下 會議詢問一下 有沒有我記得應該有啊有嘛 那他說沒有議員我們委員會考察會通知議員嗎這個不會啊不會通知嘛然後他說考察小學都是議員層級做的事情那所以我們教育文化委員會一堆委員去考察小學大家都在做議員喔"},{"start":5433.614,"end":5457.351,"text":"這擺明是假消息啊擺明假消息那請問一下祖密這個要怎麼試讀啊我看過那個教育部的那個報告他講說我們要讓小朋友知道他們為什麼要這樣子報導為什麼要做這件事情那我不知道這一家媒體綠媒就用假消息他是為什麼要做這些假消息啊祖密"},{"start":5459.025,"end":5481.073,"text":"就是那麼明顯的事情不求證那這個在NCC的角度是要怎麼處理我們要兩個嘛一個是事後開罰一個是事前預防然後再來針對小朋友做試讀嘛事前預防大概沒辦法做沒有辦法那你要不要跟教育部討論一下因為我們覺得如果有些社群媒體委員你剛才在說的是那個假消息這件事情因為是那個"},{"start":5482.193,"end":5497.77,"text":"就是違反事實查證的這個義務我們現在針對小朋友嘛那個 次郎來一下小朋友看到這個報導啊會覺得對一個立委怎麼來學校幫助我們爭取預算呢這不是議員該做的事嗎"},{"start":5499.929,"end":5520.881,"text":"然後就開始覺得 好像下次有立法委員去考察的時候呢小朋友就用很異樣眼光 欸你來幹嘛其實立委去都是幫忙爭取預算嘛 沒錯吧結果他問你來幹嘛 完全錯誤的觀念那這個部分要不要試讀 加強試讀一下所以我們希望我們的老師能引導同學共同討論"},{"start":5521.621,"end":5544.026,"text":"共同討論是不是對 是的那你是不是覺得這個試讀也很重要有一些特定媒體做特定的假消息政治攻擊是的是的後面很多案例啦這個跟我個人有關的去投票當天說我姍姍來遲請問一下祖密投票時間是幾點到幾點投票你投票時間是幾點到幾點"},{"start":5547.916,"end":5575.754,"text":"8點到4點你沒有投過票喔?有有8點到4點嘛你是不是什麼時候去投都可以10點半去然後當天投票說直接說遲到 三三來遲這樣子有沒有違反違反什麼NCC的原則沒有 我們現在就是未報告27條有所謂的違反事實查證違反事實查證然後咧 也沒辦法事先預防嘛因為這個就直播就播出去了啊所以"},{"start":5576.792,"end":5586.824,"text":"市長是不是也要加強一下試讀特定媒體的試讀好 再來後面還有啦這個民進黨立委吳佩奕啊說我潑他水啊直接造謠啊後來"},{"start":5589.915,"end":5617.694,"text":"後來直接另外一個三立的電視台把畫面還原我沒有潑他水結果有一家媒體他覺得這樣子攻擊不到我打電話給我偷錄音偷錄音之後然後說我說是另外一個立委潑的水偷錄音主委你問一下記者偷錄音這個有沒有違反什麼還是沒有如果假設是那個在公開場合的話大概沒有不是公開打電話"},{"start":5619.807,"end":5641.553,"text":"打電話的話目前這塊是你打電話沒有規範但是有沒有需要所以新聞記者是可以隨便打給人家就沒有採訪就直接偷錄音的可以然後偷錄音之後還自己亂講那個要跟不同層次來談一個是是不是有刑事責任跟我現在講一下因為趙偉站起來很久我也不好意思"},{"start":5642.915,"end":5671.778,"text":"今天一連串下來大家在討論的是怎麼樣不要讓小朋友接受到錯誤訊息假訊息影響到他獨立判斷精神所以我們要識讀識讀就是要了解這個媒體他為什麼有什麼動機要這樣子做然後真相是如何各方面要破除虛妄了解真相獨立判斷獨立思考不要被影響這是識讀主要的目的社群媒體可能會有假消息可能會有詐騙可能會有治安問題同樣的主流新聞媒體假消息也一大堆"},{"start":5673.171,"end":5679.653,"text":"教育部不用重視嗎不用讓小朋友了解為什麼特地媒體老是喜歡散發跟政治有關的假消息"},{"start":5680.68,"end":5710.015,"text":"然後第二個事後防閉事後防閉教育部現在的做法是屏蔽校園網路那NCC的做法是事後裁罰你們是這樣嘛但你們有事先的機制嗎現在這些新聞自律委員會都不用討論都連偷錄音然後亂講假消息不用查證新聞他們都沒有自律委員會嗎NCC目前他們各個新聞台其實都有自律委員會那為什麼還會這樣子然後NCC跟好像都不存在一樣"},{"start":5711.523,"end":5726.194,"text":"前一段時間假消息一大堆都不存在一樣NCE都不存在一樣有任何的檢舉我們都會依照程序來處理啊所以你們就是有人檢舉你們才會處理嘛是但是假消息沒人檢舉就讓他在台灣社會散佈嘛"},{"start":5727.509,"end":5754.962,"text":"那剩下的話可能就是了那如果是按照你這種消息態度教育部也不用媒體試讀了啦所以我們包括事先防備還有閱聽人自己的試讀以及事後的裁罰都要並重嘛媒體試讀NCC加油好不好好 謝謝然後教育部針對新聞做那麼多假消息也希望你排同樣重要的試讀的課程可以嗎我們以後努力以後努力那現在不努力喔謝謝"},{"start":5759.323,"end":5781.595,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請葛如君委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請教育部劉國偉次長請次長"},{"start":5799.245,"end":5809.489,"text":"市長好 謝謝主席市長早安不曉得您在青少年的時期有沒有讀過少年維特的煩惱沒有那您有沒有煩惱少年時期"},{"start":5810.9,"end":5836.507,"text":"應該很多 我不記得是嘛 大家都有煩惱那這本書我跟您介紹一下這個作者是戈德在25歲那一年寫出這本《世界名著》描寫青年的戀愛的苦澀跟情懷這個日記體的小說出版以後造成了全球轟動青少年更爭相模仿他的服裝最後主角在故事裡面寫了一封決別信告別這個世界次長"},{"start":5837.347,"end":5864.578,"text":"今天教育部的書面報告提到特定短影音平台推送智商影片傳達負面訊息這些有負面訊息的媒介都要在校園裡面禁止那教育部要不要禁止學生閱讀少年維特的煩惱還是說少年還是維特在台灣都不能有煩惱了只能正面積極陽光充滿愛啊是這樣嗎是還是不是只要有人檢舉我們就會去進入iWIN去討論哇"},{"start":5868.413,"end":5882.286,"text":"市長我再給你一個機會啊如果有人檢舉少年維特的煩惱有問題你們要去討論要不要進這本書啊我再給你一個機會喔你真的要這樣做嗎你確定嗎"},{"start":5884.824,"end":5909.298,"text":"你確定嗎我們教育部沒有在禁止書籍的這部電影對嘛 什麼東西啊我們剛剛講的是這本書好 老實說啦這本書被翻譯成20國語言也有電影啦好啦 所以只有有人檢舉叫《靜少年維特的煩惱》這部電影是不是電影也不是教育部管的對嘛 那你講的好像所以怎麼樣短影音就是你管的嗎"},{"start":5910.765,"end":5938.758,"text":"也不是對嘛所以我想我這一點市長我覺得您的回應我很緊張但是我先給您肯定您剛剛有一句話我很認同抖音 短音能不能進不能進嘛 進不了嘛用禁止來限制青少年去理解這個世界是完全無效的作為一個負責任的大人我們要教導他認知訊息哪個不能聽 哪個不能看用這種方法"},{"start":5939.218,"end":5956.184,"text":"去限制是可恥的那我們看到教育部呢你們是怎麼樣說什麼行動應用APP行動應用APP是你們管的嗎是你們管的嗎那沒關係那我們還看到這速發部還講什麼很危險"},{"start":5957.867,"end":5970.915,"text":"老實說啦真的是不要把目標拿來亂槍打鳥啦這些大的APP的平台都有對資安做管理不要見紅就閃好像很害怕"},{"start":5972.105,"end":5999.44,"text":"事實上我們要看其實一個曾經發文要挺戒嚴的執政黨被罵爆以後現在要妄想透過限制跟禁止下載APP來阻止學生獲得多元的訊息真的是民眾會合理懷疑這個政府是不是就是挺戒嚴但是現在怎麼樣只能做不能說又要讓校園裡面有這種戒嚴的感受跟恐怖為什麼"},{"start":6000.964,"end":6015.432,"text":"我報告次長這件事情我們真的是非常難過也非常憤怒你們還有可能不只要控制學生的思想 認知還要控制學生的限制學生的人生自由"},{"start":6016.232,"end":6042.37,"text":"近期教育部發文給各大學要求學校必須與學生赴中國大陸交流一個月前上平台登錄並於活動完成一個月後進行事後登錄回報活動概況是怎麼樣啊連系學會社團交流都包含在內這份公文我告訴你還有第二頁更扯"},{"start":6043.905,"end":6061.744,"text":"更扯在右邊下面那個框框市長你自己看一下學校因強化自我檢核本部將不定時檢查填報情形列入行政紀錄以及獎補助款是參據"},{"start":6063.683,"end":6084.906,"text":"哪一個法條哪一個法條讓你們這樣做的請教次長教育部要求學生赴大陸交流必須自我檢核要求學校通報參考赴陸的行程法源依據是什麼你現在就回答學生喔學生喔"},{"start":6087.725,"end":6110.86,"text":"首先第一個我們不是要求學生填報我們是要求的是學校來填報而不是學生市長你仔細看清楚喔社團也算喔阿什麼樣學生去學生不用跟學校講喔那學校填報學生不用寫東西學校是怎麼填報搞清楚喔"},{"start":6115.097,"end":6135.995,"text":"市長你知不知道你們的教育部在做什麼事情啊還要回報活動概況系學會社團交流都在內就是這樣啊報告委員我們這個規定的話是因為在過去的話我問的是法源我不要問你什麼需求"},{"start":6137.489,"end":6161.534,"text":"法源依據是什麼政府要不要依法行政法源當然要我們那個自我檢核表的話它上面的一些項目的話第一個規定的話不好意思我問您的是法源依據是什麼我們也跟你要自我檢核表裡面不給啊你現在要不要提出來給本席你不用花時間在這邊唸啊"},{"start":6163.356,"end":6191.362,"text":"我們依據那個兩岸關係條例33條還有33之一裡面有提到學生要自我檢核嗎不是裡面有提到學生要填表嗎我是說這些項目我報告 市長您看清楚學校辦理學生附入交流活動學生參加附入交流活動以及學校協助應落實至平台填報你有主持嗎你有說學校填嗎學校叫學生填學生讓學校來填這有什麼差別嗎"},{"start":6192.833,"end":6217.222,"text":"學生又不是公務人員校方有什麼義務要通報學生賦錄的行程啊學生有什麼義務要進行自我檢核啊這不是綠色恐怖什麼是綠色恐怖還是說教育部要推給陸委會已經在推了嘛還是陸委會又來我們教育部就照轉啊現在教育部到底是教育部還是陸委會的下級機關啊講清楚好不好"},{"start":6218.656,"end":6240.265,"text":"說實在我再強調我們不會要求學生填寫我們是希望提醒學生學校去有沒有在那些表格裡面有沒有違反到我們兩岸人民條例的三十三條跟三十五條的規定我們是提醒有沒有自我檢核提醒自我檢核就不叫自我檢核啦是這個意思市長"},{"start":6240.965,"end":6251.567,"text":"我們是理工背井的不要玩文字遊戲啦我直接就告訴你啦為什麼我們在此如此憤怒我是代表學校代表學生有學生向本席辦公室反映"},{"start":6252.717,"end":6279.454,"text":"直接就被要求進行自我檢核學生說不清楚如何向教育部通報大家都很困擾所以這個繁瑣的行政流程是由各系辦公室負責學生向系上說明行程規劃再由系辦公室處理後續通報行程這跟學生無關嗎這跟學校無關嗎這只是提醒嗎"},{"start":6280.786,"end":6303.583,"text":"哇 這強調如果學生個案上面有困擾我們國際司一定會提供協助這什麼又是個案這是公文發到全部的學校啊是的 如果各級學校學校有意見來 個別找教育部這不是審查 什麼是審查啊這不是檢核 什麼是檢核啊我們並沒有審查我們也沒有阻止他們不過去"},{"start":6305.826,"end":6328.711,"text":"那就看哪一個學校要來找教育部啦是不是這個意思剛剛就這個意思嘛有意見的人來找我們這不是檢核這是什麼通案就是通案我們在立法院問的是通案你們弄了一個根本沒有法源依據的東西然後叫什麼有意見的學校來找我們有意見的個案學生來找我們"},{"start":6329.873,"end":6357.987,"text":"這什麼年代啊我們現在在2025年啊不要想要去對這種什麼思想審查一紙公文大學雞飛狗跳教育部什麼時候才能做有點幫助的事檢核表能不能給我們我們要了不願意給啊怎麼回事啊我們有沒有要過嘛我們有沒有要過有嘛搞不清楚了我們要過你們不給"},{"start":6359.321,"end":6376.23,"text":"提出來今天會後就提出來好嗎好的那次長我們之前就已經提過了有很多老師是不需要去提出這個這個機關同意的你們也去做這些事情整體來講我覺得真的會讓人家"},{"start":6377.54,"end":6398.379,"text":"有一種疑惑啦到底你們教育部是在搞教育還是在搞大陸交流的限制啊市長我先對您深感遺憾我剛剛真的是替學生學校我捍衛學生的自由這一點我們一定是要盡力的您是不是盡力捍衛學生的自由您是不是盡力"},{"start":6399.421,"end":6412.159,"text":"會的對嘛所以我希望您可以理解我們的憤怒與遺憾教育部認為我國的大學生會因為短短幾天的互動就愉悅堅守的原則讓國家失去尊嚴會有這種事嗎"},{"start":6414.778,"end":6443.755,"text":"如果沒有 我們有自信為什麼要害怕學生跟對岸自由來往市長 本席堅信自由的土壤才能孕育出豐富的文化最近有一個文化逆襲的案例就是本院的王世堅委員啊這個變成對岸最紅的迷因啊人人開口都是匆匆容容 有刃有餘啊本席認為應該更加強這樣的交流最後一定是我們的文化在對岸發揚光大市長 您對台灣的教育有沒有信心"},{"start":6444.5,"end":6473.811,"text":"有的有信心我們教育部拿出應有的態度勇敢的告訴陸委會兩岸的學術交流往來不要被綁手綁腳對大家有信心好不好那接下來我其實還有一點時間我想因為您是理工背景的對您深有期待我跟您關心一下數位平權的議題聯合報這個進行大學生使用AI習慣的專題報導這個一二三類組的學生八成以上認為使用AI工具能提升學習效率"},{"start":6474.531,"end":6491.682,"text":"那學生常在使用上使用AI輔助啊那次長您來自電機系嘛這個二類組的科系次長平常有沒有在用AI工具啊有那都使用哪些AI工具CheckGPT那之前在課堂上會鼓勵學生使用AI工具"},{"start":6492.711,"end":6509.728,"text":"并不鼓励并不鼓励那这些学生都违反了老师的规则了吗没有好 没关系我们尊重每一位老师的想法但是根据联合报的调查就是八成以上在用那八成以上这些学生使用呢您用的就是最主流的CHAT GPT 95.3%"},{"start":6511.309,"end":6530.25,"text":"我也在用我最近AI實習生寶博也串了OpenAI其次Gemini佔了48%另外Microsoft CopilotCanva和Notebook都有市長您CheckGPT有付費嗎沒有那您知道CheckGPT目前的定價多少嗎"},{"start":6532.182,"end":6548.552,"text":"不好意思這個主席我暫一點時間因為這很重要這學生的選意我覺得一個月20塊美金吧很好PLUS方案一個月20塊美金您知道有沒有更貴的有有嗎有有完整功能的PRO方案200塊美金一個月告訴市長這還不是最貴的"},{"start":6549.552,"end":6560.647,"text":"這還不是最貴的Gemini的Google AI Ultra最近有新版確實評價不錯但我們不做任何推薦一個月的訂閱費是台幣8150塊學生常用的Canva個人訂閱年費3600塊"},{"start":6565.814,"end":6590.525,"text":"次長前面的調查你也看到了只要訂閱一種以上的AI工具學生都在用每個月光是AI的支出隨便超過一千塊因此多數的學生可能會使用免費版我想跟次長一樣但是家境好的學生可能訂閱一個以上的AI工具完整版進階版Plus版Pro版Expert版Enterprise版"},{"start":6591.445,"end":6613.445,"text":"造成數位落差數位的不平等目前各部會我們也是支持我們也真的是給予肯定文化部發文化幣給青年事後調查確定能夠促進青少年接觸藝文產業達到文化平權本席要再次呼籲教育部您又是理工方面的專業您應該知道數位平權科技很重要"},{"start":6613.965,"end":6615.565,"text":"具體做法可不可以研議一下"},{"start":6634.724,"end":6650.453,"text":"如果是屬於全民使用就不在我們教育部的權責我們講青少年 教育部管的 學校的我們會去研議具體說法請教育部邀請各部會討論後兩個月內書面報告提供的本席可以嗎"},{"start":6652.025,"end":6681.061,"text":"可以好 謝謝次長我想今天次長的答覆我們還是要勤勉捍衛教育的專業師生的尊嚴與自由那多位教育議題發生不要把時間資源浪費在政治操作去畫紅線阻礙學術交流我們民主要有自信我們的個人的自主的權利也要受到保護應該多多針對教育有關的政策我們剛剛就給你一個很好的題目希望教育部放眼全球不要把目光只集中在對岸好嗎"},{"start":6682.335,"end":6690.982,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝市長好 謝謝葛如君委員我們再來請陳秀寶召委諮詢謝謝主席先請速發部胡竹敏好 請胡竹敏"},{"start":6716.646,"end":6731.563,"text":"我先來說一下最近有一則新聞家長們很關心丹麥政府宣布將禁止15歲以下的兒童使用社群媒體不過有授權家長如果在特定的評估之後13歲以上的兒童可以使用社群媒體"},{"start":6732.455,"end":6749.242,"text":"科學的研究我們人類的大腦在20到25歲才算成熟所以醫界一直在提醒說15歲以前的大腦不應該被演算法來綁架這是非常危險的那會有什麼危險在我們負責情緒調節自我控制的"},{"start":6749.962,"end":6778.585,"text":"這個前額葉皮脂還沒有成熟之前我們的孩子可能因為這些過度的刺激他會情緒過度敏感他會有焦慮恐慌會造成可能社交的焦慮注意力下降難以專注然後大腦可能會被這些短隱音訓練成這個快感疑慮所以沒有耐心對學習會有造成障礙這種種的這個嚴重的影響其實醫界學界都一直在提醒但是丹麥也說他們不是禁止社群"},{"start":6779.085,"end":6791.319,"text":"是在保護我們孩子大腦的發展竹敏今天排的這一個專報主要是針對如何防範不當的短影音尤其是像抖音這一類的來影響對我們青少年的影響"},{"start":6794.042,"end":6818.457,"text":"所以我這邊先跟說法部討論一下國際版的抖音這個問題首先我想請先了解一下目前國際版的抖音在台灣設法律代表的問題根據我們的詐欺犯罪妨礙條例第29條第一項的規定在台無營業所或住所或沒有設立分公司者要指定法律代表"},{"start":6818.897,"end":6842.691,"text":"那目前為止請問國際版的抖音設置法律代表的進度如何如果是TikTok的這件事情那他們有來申請法律代表那相關部會正在審查當中所以已經有來申請了也正在審查那這個我們會不會有一個時間的限制我們現在正在審查包括陸委會經濟部等等單位都在審查當中"},{"start":6843.251,"end":6856.532,"text":"所以他已經送進來的審查就是我們這邊要接手的程序了以對這個國際版的抖音來講他已經有提出這樣的申請了那目前我們速發部跟國際版的抖音這個溝通的窗口是什麼"},{"start":6857.571,"end":6879.632,"text":"目前有窗口吗他们其实在申请的时候有一个台湾的法律代表在帮忙那会透过他们来讨论台湾这个法律的代表是台湾在台代表还是他们自己的员工在台湾的法律代表是在台湾的法律代表那我们目前运作跟配合的方式是什么如果我们有一些管理的需要有一些相关的程序我们是直接请他转达还是他可以"},{"start":6880.212,"end":6907.02,"text":"做初步的處理他就是接受一些法律的部分就跟防詐條例打詐條例相關的東西他們可以協助那他只是接了我們的我們相關的文件還是說對 只接受相關的文件而已那目前國際版的抖音在國際間還是有存在這個所謂言論審查跟用戶資料蒐集這個疑慮所以目前我們台灣的使用者的這個數據或是內容有沒有需要做相關言論的審查嗎"},{"start":6908.3,"end":6924.948,"text":"我們台灣的人使用這個國際版的抖音我們的內容會不會就需要做這個言論審查的這個程序嗎有聽說就是我們台灣的內容是送到中國的深圳這邊進行內容審查那你們有掌握這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":6926.65,"end":6944.43,"text":"目前我们在审查是针对他的不是我们的审查是我们的用户我们发表的言录我们相关的资料一般都是没有在看的没有在看他们的事前的东西就像刚才那个NCC在讲这个属于言论自由的范围我们大概都没有积极在看不是我们对"},{"start":6945.017,"end":6972.349,"text":"我是说我们的人我们台湾人我们自己国人使用这个国际版的这个抖音的时候我们自己相关的言论相关的发表是不是会被抖音公司做言论审查这些相关的数据相关的言论是被收集这个你们有没有掌握我跟你讲一个是TikTok一个是抖音如果是抖音的话我们非常的确定它会送回去中国大陆那边那如果是TikTok的部分这个就是我们正在研究的"},{"start":6972.449,"end":7001.709,"text":"所以你有確定就是說我剛剛問的是說國際版的抖音也是會送回去中國大陸深圳這邊做審查所以你沒有掌握這個狀況那好現在也有聲音說是希望國際版的抖音要落地納管那訴法部這邊你們對國際版的抖音落地納管你們有什麼想法或是你們覺得應該要怎麼正好就是我們陸委會跟經濟部正在就相關的事項做審查就是它的落地審查這樣子"},{"start":7003.11,"end":7027.273,"text":"好那這邊我要提醒一下書發部就是說針對這個代表的審查這個法律代表審查應該要加速來進行因為我們如果有相關的一些責任才能依法問責那也希望說對於像詐騙不當以及兒童兒少的內容我們要進行相關的管理那這個所以法律代表的設置是非常重要的一步"},{"start":7027.813,"end":7043.776,"text":"那目前也有傳聞說目前台灣的這個TikTok是由日本來做管理也有說是澳洲管理那日本的這個國際版的影音的高層的這個主管呢有來台灣喔也聽說跟速發部這邊有一些互動"},{"start":7044.577,"end":7069.32,"text":"那這個部分呢我想我還是要提醒書發部其實我們跟TikTok這邊互動我們要注意這個分際畢竟這是我們一直非常需要去防範的一個部分所以對於這個TikTok它的中資背景是我們要很謹慎面對我想這個書發部本身也有自己的這樣的一個想法在那這邊呢我再請次長您也過來"},{"start":7072.492,"end":7098.215,"text":"在这边我想先询问两位两位认为这个抖音TikTok这个内容对青少年的影响大吗次长你先说如果它是影响的内容部分的内容如果影响到青少年的身心发展那就应该把那个内容所定制署名的您觉得呢您觉得目前我们孩子在使用抖音这方面你觉得对我们青少年影响大不大"},{"start":7100.112,"end":7122.593,"text":"基本上我們是技術的主管機關那我們都會跟衛福部或者是比如說遊戲業者我們會跟消防官那些做一些討論那我想請教你們覺得兩位覺得現在的管理對於這個兒少內容的管控是不是有效的或者說你回答我覺得做得夠不夠有沒有要加強的"},{"start":7123.991,"end":7142.228,"text":"跟委員報告教育永遠不是不夠的因為我們都很希望說我們做任何的措施不管是素養教育或者是在學術網路上的一些措施其實都是希望降低小孩子被騙被引導但是你說有沒有效"},{"start":7143.595,"end":7168.564,"text":"有沒有效見仁見智但是有沒有夠不夠永遠不夠我們都是要保護我們的孩子我們希望說不管是詐騙或者是被錯誤引導這個部分都是我們非常要小心防範的所以為什麼我要強調為什麼對抖音的控管我這麼的堅持因為它有中資背景有資料審查的疑慮還有出現不當內容甚至對衍生法的衍生的抖音的挑戰就是我之前也在委員會質詢過的"},{"start":7170.945,"end":7192.672,"text":"衍生這種抖音挑戰對孩子他們的生命安全是造成很大的影響的這都是我們非常的憂心那再來我想兩位看一下這個圖片網路上現在有盛傳2025必看教大家怎麼下載大陸抖音還說可以幫助你快速融入這個操控的平台那其實我們的青少年就是這樣你教他不要下載他反而更好奇"},{"start":7193.151,"end":7214.965,"text":"那現在他們也非常容易的可以下載到這個大陸版的抖音那如果跟國際版跟大陸版這兩個不同版本的抖音其實我們都無法有效的管理的話我們都無法去管理到它的內容對青少年的影響那我們是不是乾脆就下架嘛你就乾脆不要讓它用啊這個部分次長您的想法是什麼"},{"start":7219.991,"end":7241.196,"text":"這個網址的管理當然其實不在教育部我在強調如果不管什麼網址網站如果違反了資料我們會經過iWIN的機制如果是有違反兒少法的規定我們一定會希望他們能通知業者下架如果業者不下架我們製客室這邊也會讓他下架是這樣"},{"start":7244.721,"end":7268.754,"text":"這個部分我想因為時間有限我在這邊就不多跟你們討論但是會後我會找我們辦公室正會找你們來再討論一下這個部分段你們的想法態度跟大概大家怎麼做主秘你先請回我再問一下次長近日澳洲跟紐西蘭有傳出校園裡面供兒童遊戲使用中國遊戲殺它含有一級致癌物失眠"},{"start":7269.955,"end":7294.235,"text":"導致紐西蘭、澳洲有數百間的學校緊急檢查並且有120間的學校暫時是關閉進行全面的清消後續當然他們監管機構雖然表示說沒有檢測出來這種可吸入的纖維因此相關風險是有比較低的但是也沒有排除安全的疑慮這邊想請教次長有沒有瞭解目前台灣的校園有沒有使用到這種種類的遊戲傻"},{"start":7297.499,"end":7319.756,"text":"跟委員報告這個謝謝您關切我們教育部已經主動去要求所有的幼兒園的教材教具跟玩具是否目前是有的但是我們會持續提醒而且去要求宣導未來的採購任何的教具教材玩具都要合乎這個標準所以是有查到也是有學校是使用這個牌子這個種類的遊戲商國內目前沒有"},{"start":7321.917,"end":7341.732,"text":"目前沒有那其實因為其實中國製的產品價格是比較低的很多學校在成本的考量上可能會使用但是這樣子作為教學使用作為遊戲使用對孩子的健康是有疑慮的時候我希望說我們教育部跟各縣市的這個教育處教育局也要討論說像這樣的我們如何來防範"},{"start":7342.772,"end":7355.857,"text":"避免說有安全疑慮的這個物品進入到校園影響到孩子的健康一定會的好 那就請我們這個一定要跟教育局處全力的來監督好 謝謝 想謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶召委次長請回"},{"start":7369.151,"end":7381.656,"text":"我們在醫警委員質詢後會休息5分鐘接下來請林沛翔委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請劉次長請劉次長"},{"start":7385.882,"end":7410.643,"text":"喂 安桃市長早您過去在明星科大任內最因應為傲的就是推動所謂的半導體產學專班被視為私校生存的模範生但是今天您換個角色成為了主管機關面對現在失控的學工亂象甚至有外籍生因為公安意外而喪命像是黎明技術學院的案子請問一下您怎麼看"},{"start":7412.657,"end":7441.783,"text":"第一个我过去当校长的时候在推动在招生的时候我们都会要求不管是系所还有我们的实习的厂家一定第一个要签约第二个我们要确保学生的去实习的资格我们一定而且连他们的实习的条件我们都学校都应该而且要必须去了解是否合乎我们的安全的措施那"},{"start":7442.763,"end":7470.216,"text":"是不是有我们大学端比较少有学工的部分所以我们觉得我不同意是说有沦为学工的疑虑因为其实老实讲您的成功案例反而某个程度上变成教育部纵容的借口那您也曾经在明星科大上面说过说大学就是人才培育的场域强调说入学及就业"},{"start":7470.876,"end":7488.977,"text":"但是監察院報告現在指出大量後段私校畫虎不成反內犬勾結仲介讓外籍生悲哉來台每週公讀超過40個小時把學生變成廉價的非典型勞工其具體說明要如何修正實習課程的審核標準"},{"start":7492.04,"end":7514.576,"text":"跟委員報告事實上在來我教育部之前我自己當校長也被教育部所督導事實上我們教育部都有在實地去訪試去做教育品質查核那我們一再強調任何的學生你要有工作證才能出去實習跟打工不管是實習或打工總時數絕對不能超過我再強調絕對不能超過40"},{"start":7517.378,"end":7533.13,"text":"也不能做大夜班的加班然后如果有查到我们一定会列入专府所以你认为现在的审核标准不需要修正吗什么现在的实习课程的审核标准是不需要任何程度的修正您是这样认为的吗"},{"start":7533.928,"end":7557.871,"text":"现在如果已经实习之后除非有哪些偏颇的地方您是说不要超过40小时吗应该是这样讲是否能承诺未来所有的产学专班的实习合约必须笔照劳基法建立薪资直接入户尤其对外居生境界重建精手而且实习场域安全个别评估的强制机制呢"},{"start":7558.308,"end":7578.496,"text":"有 我們現在目前已經在有了我們也要求各大學在招生的時候不得藉由任何的仲介然後甚至在尋找實習場所的時候也不得任何的仲介然後在學生要出去實習之前學校不管是所縣校都要有實習核"},{"start":7579.516,"end":7593.602,"text":"那個都有標準的模式而且委員您確確最關心的是不是是不是有核武勞動部所要的安全職安法職安安全我們都已經列入在裡面而且事後我們也會去如果學校"},{"start":7594.102,"end":7612.894,"text":"因為其實這些都是我希望不是通案因為我們知道我們缺工很厲害但是個案一直發生的時候就難免讓人家懷疑未來會不會是一種通案如果學校在發生學工剝削教育部除了扣減招生名額這種不痛不癢的處分之外有沒有什麼具體的退場機制"},{"start":7614.079,"end":7636.524,"text":"有的我們馬上列入專輔的專案輔導的學校那個是對任何一個學校包括私立學校是非常嚴重的事情因為一旦列入專輔就不能招外籍學生然後即便脫離了專輔學校還有好幾年不能招外籍學生對一般的私立學校是一個很嚴重的打擊"},{"start":7637.619,"end":7657.444,"text":"好 另外一個議題教育部雖然在2025年雖然更新了所謂的AI指引但大多數還是停留在理論上的宣導您是電機博士很清楚大型語言模型本質上是在機率預測而非知識庫目前教育部的AI素養教育很多只是在教學生怎麼下指令"},{"start":7658.044,"end":7683.676,"text":"老實講這只是在培養被AI取代的人請問教育部在114學年度的課維調或計畫中有沒有具體的預算科目是來教導學生來逆向解析演算法的邏輯是否從你的專業跟經驗出發要求各級學校的資安跟媒體課程必須加入所謂的辨識演算法錯誤跟對抗成癮機制的實作測驗"},{"start":7685.696,"end":7704.343,"text":"謝謝委員那我能回答部分因為高中以下的私底生以我們強調是AI的應用我們不要取代老師跟學生的教學現場那我們是希望是提供AI的一些工具讓老師教得好讓學生學得好這樣"},{"start":7705.163,"end":7730.824,"text":"那以举个例子我们最近公告了一个Right AI就是帮助高中老师的批改国文作文那你刚才讲逆向式的AI的coding那应该比较适合大学的一些研究的单位那我们在高教室这边还有技职师我们技职科师也有一些专案的这就是我们现在会遇到的状况因为现在AI工具太好用"},{"start":7731.525,"end":7754.598,"text":"很容易上手變成是說很多還沒有心晟還沒有完整的學生就直接使用AI工具去做出一些成品出來可是相對比較起來是剝奪他們的本身的知識跟創作權那我想請教請說明教育部要如何從教學生用工具轉型成為教學生駕馭演算法呢"},{"start":7756.744,"end":7774.907,"text":"是 跟我們報告其實我們教育部是跟聯合國的教科文組織一樣13歲以下小孩子的心智還沒有成熟所以我們鼓勵的是用教育部所開發的專為教育用的深層式AI教育工具來幫助學生學習"},{"start":7776.629,"end":7803.906,"text":"我們也強調我們也跟老師講如果老師要用其他的這種商業用的特別到高中要特別注意不會有學習替代的狀況所以我們目前也在辦有關於老師的這種AI怎麼融進去教學來增加學生的學習而不是讓學生的學習取代這一個方面的一個研習如同委員講的這一個事情非常重要所以我們"},{"start":7804.426,"end":7829.21,"text":"教育部從去年我們就開始去做這些事情那我們這個部分我們會持續去努力那有關於演算法教學法因為我們因為以這個演算法的部分我們有高中的多元選修的AI課程那因為這個部分技術比較難但是辨識的這個部分我們會從素養教育就是我們希望"},{"start":7829.91,"end":7849.459,"text":"不好意思你想要演算法就是我剛剛想要問的最後一個問題就是教育部如果在我們剛剛講到只是AI工具的演算法針對我們現在擁有的東西但是如果請問教育部在114年的課綱或教材裡面有沒有具體的章節是教導學生解析短影音平台的演算法"},{"start":7850.376,"end":7873.375,"text":"就是坦白说就是教孩子如何看穿平台是如何利用变动奖励机制来设计成瘾回路如果连最基本的演算法试读都没有我们如何期待孩子能够对抗演算法的成瘾陷阱一句话叫道高一尺魔高一丈但是道总是要做些事情不能一天到晚只是说我们做不到对吧"},{"start":7874.329,"end":7896.038,"text":"跟委員報告我們課綱的話是108年那時候就是審定的到114年其實在整個AI或是整個數位的發展已經有很大的發展我們會透過教學指引引導老師"},{"start":7897.398,"end":7904.212,"text":"而在教学上也可以融入然后把演算法程式设计人工智慧的概念能够带入教学"},{"start":7905.441,"end":7935.161,"text":"老实说我蛮担心的,因为现在的世界,重点不是你看到什么,而是你如何去试读,不管是我们现在看到的媒体试读,还是未来的写习法试读,也算法试读,如果这一块教育部没有放在心上的话,未来我们的学子很容易会被牵着走,我相信你们会跟我讲,我们当然有,但是我刚刚讲过那句话,道高一尺,魔高一丈,尤其是现在13岁的小孩,基本上来讲,他对于AI的抵抗力是越来越弱,"},{"start":7935.561,"end":7956.531,"text":"对APP各方面的抵抗力是不是越来越弱我希望教育部能够把不只是单纯的媒体试读或者演算法试读很多不同的东西很多都不同的东西现在在资讯爆炸的年代如何去教孩子第一时间去试读是不带bias不带偏见的去试读这点会是教育部未来在怎么样教育小朋友的时候很重要的一块"},{"start":7957.709,"end":7975.203,"text":"謝謝委員的指教事實上我們從過去到現在我們都一直在辦理我們的資訊科技教師在職進修第二專長你不是教資訊的你過來上一些學分班這個課程裡面包含演算法程式設計跟人工智慧從106年就開始做"},{"start":7977.805,"end":8000.278,"text":"到113年已经办了46班一共有969人那我们会持续去办理那我们也会持续的跟进更新我们的课程的内容就是委员讲的道高于尺 魔高于丈科技一直在进步我们会把相当科技一直在希望老师在培育因为老师是教学现场指导引学生的最主要的养"},{"start":8000.558,"end":8027.72,"text":"我们今天是在讨论说有关这个演算法试读之类的事情而且讨论这些议题因为现在老师越来越难找老师讲你们大家都知道今天我们不是讨论这个议题但是如果说老师越来越难找的时候那未来AI的使用期率越来越高那我只能说请求教育部在这边好好讨论好好研讨说如何在教材上面在课程上面在内容上面做出做出长足的制度不然的话"},{"start":8028.34,"end":8051.674,"text":"對於未來的學子或對於下一個世代AI不見得是完全是幫助是一體兩面刃所以如何在這邊教導他們或是引導他們在下一個世代能夠好好做事是很重要的一塊謝謝林佩祥委員質詢 觀眾請回座接下來請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":8059.236,"end":8065.95,"text":"謝主席有請教育部劉次長跟抒發部胡竹蜜請劉次長 胡竹蜜"},{"start":8072.779,"end":8100.355,"text":"台灣是民主國家那每位公民只要不要傷害別人理所當然他要獲得最大限度的自由那政府也無權干涉可是這並不等同於我們眼睜睜的看著下一代暴露在危險的情境中然後毫無作為也就是說我們並不會讓民眾即將要把巨款匯給詐騙集團的時候我們還在旁邊說風涼的話說匯款是民眾的自由"},{"start":8101.796,"end":8128.703,"text":"好 那國際特赦組織對這個TikTok發布的兩份報告看起來毛骨悚然第一份報告是說TikTok為了吸引住使用者透過演算法不斷地做出一些毫無把關的推薦個人化的推薦無論內容有多麼的離經叛道它都會直接透過手機的螢幕推送到我們孩子的面前"},{"start":8129.483,"end":8157.889,"text":"那在國際特殊組織這個研究中它有顯現出如果一個孩子他好奇自己的心理狀態又或者他對身心這個健康問題有興趣那TikTok它就會灌輸許多有害的資訊給他例如說他會鼓勵自殘或者自殺的影片換句話說TikTok已經不是不只是網路成癮的問題它是對我們下一代赤裸裸的惡意"},{"start":8158.911,"end":8159.333,"text":"那我"},{"start":8160.421,"end":8189.2,"text":"我要跟次長討論是說那目前我們在教育現場你是否會發現有相關的這種危害的事件那目前我們根據這個兒少權法第四六條或者是第四六條它其實有防止兒少就是接觸有害身心發展網路內容的規範那同一條就是在兒少權法裡面的第94條它也有對網路平台有科有罰則"},{"start":8190.561,"end":8216.109,"text":"那要討論就是說那教育部如何要精進現有的措施再進一步落實我們兒少全法第46條規定的精神那我們是不是也同時要在教育家庭裡面家庭教育裡面去強調這個教育網路當內容的影響市長謝謝委員持續關心這件事情我們也很真正關心不過再強調"},{"start":8217.679,"end":8230.001,"text":"在以Tunnel為主的我們是不會裝這個就是因為在Tunnel是因為我們的資通安全法我們不能裝置大陸製的軟硬"},{"start":8231.69,"end":8255.142,"text":"包括抖音跟小紅書是這是因為是這樣那至於個人載具個人手機手機手的ADSL那個第一個他要裝什麼所以我們有一個叫做數位工具包我們也有一些數位學習給家長的指引我們都是希望家長能在家庭裡面能設法的去"},{"start":8256.503,"end":8283.012,"text":"装置一些过滤的机制三大业者也都有这个服务如果他愿意去装的话我们都一起服务的那到委员也关键家庭教育我们终身是我们也做了很多的家庭教育的一些课程跟宣导以及活动那我们这个媒体宿养跟网路数位宿养等相当课程都已经在那里面"},{"start":8284.173,"end":8313.207,"text":"说实在已经很多了但是听不听是一回事因为人身自由您刚才提到人身自由但是我们教育就是永远不够我们会持续推动我们会加强推动刚才也讲了有关于一些网路的祷告仪指摸告仪上我们只要收集到任何的新的跟有害跟您写的有关于就是儿少有关有任何的关系不单单是被动或主动的我们知道"},{"start":8313.767,"end":8336.651,"text":"我們都會經過iWIN的機制那iWIN如果認為這是有用的話會通知業者下架如果不下架我們教育部會自動下架而且是只在學術網路裡面下架所以因為我們教育部主管的只是在學術網路跟教學現場擁有的那家庭的這部分我們還是持續跟家長做溝通"},{"start":8337.191,"end":8358.745,"text":"我們也跟我們的家長團體持續的對話希望人都了解多利用我們的數位工具包當然委員會說我們數位工具包夠不夠我們會持續充實會加強好 因為其實TikTok有一個另外一個問題它這個問題是比其他的社群平台更嚴重許多就是因為它來自獨裁的中國"},{"start":8360.049,"end":8375.642,"text":"那中國這個國家我想是無法被完全信任因為他這個政府他可以肢一妄為去侵害人民的權益所以他透過這個TikTok那台灣的孩子他就是有會有大量的個人資訊被"},{"start":8376.903,"end":8392.66,"text":"中國這個國家所掌握那我們會有大量的這個兒少的隱私喔暴露在中國那國際特色組織又有一個報告顯示說TikTok它經營的這個是一個高度剝削的商業模式那它"},{"start":8393.16,"end":8418.639,"text":"他其實不僅大量在收集用戶的在平台上的個人數據那他某些地區甚至在就連用戶在現實生活中的資訊也會被收集所以國際特色組織他形容說陷入TikTok的這個監視網路當中那會給青少年帶來很多隱私權遭曝光的恐懼感"},{"start":8419.6,"end":8441.771,"text":"那所以再來就要請教這個速發部胡竹蜜而少乃至於全體國人他這個個人資訊瀑布在這個中國的掌控之中會有怎麼樣的風險那速發部又有怎麼樣的應變策略因為監察院他的報告有指出說像美國 歐盟或英國他們都有一些"},{"start":8442.891,"end":8466.219,"text":"法令像說美國還有保護美國人免受外國對手應用程式的侵害法像歐盟有數位服務法英國有線上安全法等的立法我們台灣會不會朝立法的管制模式去應對胡竹蜜謝謝委員的質詢有關個資外洩的部分過去其實"},{"start":8467.866,"end":8483.058,"text":"各自外線就會衍生相關的詐騙的東西就會進來所以如果小朋友資料也都在外面暴露的話事實上增加很多的受騙的危險所以這個部分其實我們各自法已經有相關的規範或者是我們那個打詐的相關的條例已經針對這個"},{"start":8484.719,"end":8514.151,"text":"不當的廣告事實上也要求這些Meta這些來下架這樣子是有相關的來處理啦所以妳說就是透過個資法對 目前個資法已經有在針對這些業者他如果讓我們的資料外洩的話那這些業者就要負擔起一定的責任這樣子這是針對平台的部分那如果是平台的部分他如果有一些詐騙的廣告等等他事實上也要在限期內要下架不然他也會有相關的責任要負擔這樣子"},{"start":8515.205,"end":8542.894,"text":"那想再來再跟胡祖密討論的是說像根據這個有一個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則還有行政院秘書長在2020年他的發函我們公務用的這個自通產品包括軟體硬體我們都不能使用中國的品牌那這些行政規則都已經有要求行政院所屬全國的各公務機關"},{"start":8544.875,"end":8554.819,"text":"照理立法院也要比照辦理啊那請教一下立法委員利用TikTok進行公務的宣傳那影響民眾視聽這算不算違反這個這項規定啊"},{"start":8557.061,"end":8577.547,"text":"先跟委员报告一下就是抖音跟TikTok我们目前是切割处理抖音就很明确的就是录制的所以一定是不能使用所以我们已经也有发函立法院在公务上面一定不能来运用这个抖音这样子的一个APP那至于TikTok我们刚才另外在讨论因为打仗的条例我们有邀请他来"},{"start":8579.428,"end":8603.229,"text":"設立法律代表人不過這個東西正在討論當中不過非常明確的抖音是所有的公務部門都不可以來使用這個抖音的那立法院這個部分委員本身或者是行政人員當然行政人員一定是公務員他的公務員的這個資格一定不能來使用這些那至於委員本身可能他就是公職人員有另外的進行公務宣傳這個可能就是"},{"start":8604.029,"end":8628.415,"text":"因為另外中國就是符合這個中國這個國家是符合我們反滲透法第二條規定就是敵外境外敵對勢力那立委可以考察國防機密那也可以參與機密預算所以他可以獲取很多國家各式各樣的資訊所以結果手機裡安裝資安"},{"start":8630.436,"end":8641.148,"text":"有問題的中國軟體那這難道不是很荒謬的資安破口嗎那所以針對這樣的資安破口我們未來要怎麼樣的管制對不對"},{"start":8642.583,"end":8663.176,"text":"当然如果依照我们危害国家自动安全的相关的规定的话那如果他有安装使用的话那一定安装抖音对安装使用抖音的话就会受到相关治安法的规定那如果有一些情节的状况的话就可以惩戒或惩处这样子这个是治安法的规定对"},{"start":8665.488,"end":8681.794,"text":"時間的關係我想再透過三十秒來跟那個次長討論一下AI教育因為現在AI教育就越來越發達那教育部當然有針對中小學制定一些生成式人工智慧注意事項那當然也有針對一些家長"},{"start":8682.834,"end":8703.565,"text":"有一些所謂的這個數位學習知能的指引對中小學的教學有一些知能那剛剛也有推出所謂中小學這個數位教學指引的3.0版不過我覺得除了這些以外我覺得我們還是要回過頭來解釋一下老師家長跟學生有沒有跟得上AI的腳步"},{"start":8704.525,"end":8734.125,"text":"那根據黃坤惠教育基金會他調查8月到10月間針對現職的國小、國中、高中老師進行AI素養調查那這個3600份的回收的調查問卷結果顯示大部分的老師他覺得自己對於AI基礎跟應用或AI的倫理或AI的人本思維他覺得他是具有素養的可是在AI的這個教學法或AI的專業發展他覺得這兩項他覺得還有所不及"},{"start":8735.305,"end":8755.15,"text":"另外我們也發現說年資越長的老師們自認具備AI的素養不及之前的老師我想教育部針對教師的AI素養有在舉辦很多的研習課程有一些基礎的培訓也都已經有做一些很完整的"},{"start":8757.09,"end":8782.218,"text":"進階的課程也在持續推動所以我想我們另外也有看到本席也有在看到教育部在明年的預算書也有持續要辦理AI應用我在教學跟學習那又升級這個教育雲一站式的服務要開發這個在地化的教育用可信賴的這個所謂的大型人工智慧對話引擎就是所謂的Tide模型"},{"start":8783.138,"end":8803.5,"text":"我要請教的是說我們教育用的這個態度現在開發的進度不曉得到哪裡那還有一種就是我們行政減量喊了那麼久那身於這個理工背景的你你是不是有更多的想像就是說用AI技術怎麼樣輔助在行政減量上簡單回答"},{"start":8803.8,"end":8823.722,"text":"好,您問的問題是非常深奧,但是也是切實的。有關於老師AI的資能,我們事實上A1、A2已經100%完成,現在所謂的A3的真能已經在10%,每年的10%。另外,未來也會推廣到我們所謂的B3選修課程,"},{"start":8825.043,"end":8840.268,"text":"如果哪些老師是針對深層式AI融入教學的工作坊如果特定的老師或哪些老師需要我們會加強去學習那另外剛剛您講過針對所謂的某一些階段的老師或者是比較"},{"start":8841.718,"end":8860.608,"text":"我不能說他年長就是比較通常這是調查報告出來的年資較深的會比年資較淺的對AI這個東西比較不熟悉那我也算比較資深但是我們還有一個機制叫做手把手手把手機制我們會推薦那個"},{"start":8861.688,"end":8881.212,"text":"對AI教學有經驗的老師或大學的教授會入校去協助只要有退休需求透過各式各樣的管道縣市政府也好我們各地方有DOC我們有數位學習中心等等我們都會願意協助特定的老師在這方面好"},{"start":8884.253,"end":8907.3,"text":"AI态德上面我们已经跨部会我刚刚已经讲过举个例子我们最近有推一个WriteAI就是基于这个Education态德系统帮助我们高中老师而且这个还是民间的机构来捐赠的帮助高中老师去改国文的作文这是一个多么困难"},{"start":8908.297,"end":8934.04,"text":"兼生的問題 聽他們說如果用人工改一個作文大概要花個十到十五分鐘那經過這個可以縮短到幾分鐘之內而且這也可以應用到學生自己自學日後啦那也就是說我們教育部的立場是我們一定要教老師我們不是要取代老師我在強調取代老師也不要取代學生學習這一塊當然當然我們是要利用AI去協助"},{"start":8934.68,"end":8959.812,"text":"老師如何教得好 教得滿我們也是希望學生能藉由AI不要沉溺在AI 不要over build AI而是利用AI如何去讓他們學的最大的幫手像我們的酷英網我們的學生利用即在你在偏鄉利用酷英網我們根據我們的調查如果你經過酷英網你只要4個小時以上它進步是15%以上那行政減量呢"},{"start":8960.552,"end":8989.134,"text":"行政減量很像我們現在我們也在推動那個Try AITry AI我們那個我們也是在學習說如何比如說寫公文比如說寫什麼樣的文字我們要教導他們所有行政我們教育部也是開始做起如果去應用他們應用AI得到最大的幫忙對我們是要希望能減少教學第一線的老師的行政減量我們朝這個方向去走好謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":8990.055,"end":8993.557,"text":"谢谢林经委员质询官员请回座我们现在休息五分钟"},{"start":9013.167,"end":9030.038,"text":"這就是我們知道的,就是這個藝術,這個藝術,這就是我們知道的,就是這個藝術,"},{"start":9040.765,"end":9045.047,"text":"不要到時候就說完再三分鐘吧"},{"start":9075.16,"end":9077.52,"text":"這張圖是新的一張圖。這張圖是新的一張圖"},{"start":9090.745,"end":9111.306,"text":"那時候我們在學校的時候,我年紀很大,也有兩個學校,不知道什麼,我也走在那裡。那個學校不太有學術,那個學校是自己來學的。那時候我們不能自己接受,不用跟小朋友講話。"},{"start":9114.108,"end":9122.096,"text":"對,然後再補貨。對,然後再補貨。對,然後再補貨。對,然後再補貨。對,然後再補貨。"},{"start":9141.518,"end":9142.279,"text":"臺北市長"},{"start":9298.479,"end":9322.617,"text":"我們繼續開會 接下來請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席因為今天的內容其實好像教育部 抒發部衛福部其實都有牽涉到我想就先一起出來好了謝謝衛福部"},{"start":9324.749,"end":9341.862,"text":"有速發部有國家通訊傳播委員會還有網際網路傳播辦公室那是還有教育部對都可以都一起來都到嗎那就請有次長請胡主秘請黃主秘還有檢認視察李嘉玲都到"},{"start":9347.066,"end":9363.619,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為今天委員會安排的主題是如何防範不當的短影音跟社群平台的兒少內容那希望怎麼來加強數位跟媒體的素養那我這邊有看到一個中研院它的一個針對2023年資料庫所做的調查"},{"start":9366.861,"end":9389.846,"text":"那其中呢就是來使用這個TikTok的比例18歲以下國小4乘3國中5乘7高中5乘那其實這個是最保守的調查統計例如像家福的話國中是7乘所以我們在這個地方就可以看到其實孩子們會去使用"},{"start":9391.046,"end":9417.347,"text":"這個影音媒體其實並不意外因為孩子 青少年他就會基於社交因素為了要交朋友為了要跟上流行的話題所以他會去下載使用那麼在立法院的法治局其實多年來也一直很關心這樣的一個議題像是他引用英國非營利組織反數位仇恨中心的一個調查報告"},{"start":9418.308,"end":9439.156,"text":"這個TikTok每2.6分鐘推送自殺內容每8分鐘推送飲食失調內容每39秒推薦負面身心健康影片所以這樣的一個狀況像2022年的數據他說平均每天TikTok使用107分鐘遠遠是YouTube的兩倍"},{"start":9443.217,"end":9461.243,"text":"那到現在2025年我想這個數據是更驚人所以我們其實看到很多手法我舉個例子像我們是原住民那南島語族到底起源中國福建還是起源南島那它可以透過這個TikTok舉個例子毛利人來自中國嗎這個對年輕人來講"},{"start":9463.444,"end":9485.31,"text":"很吸引他宇宙生命的起源他是要追尋自我的時候這一些話題都很吸引他他就跳進去看啦又或者是說像現在很流行就是用AI來配音你要什麼歌他都生給你假人 假曲 假音他就會去製造一些沒人沒有說過的話"},{"start":9486.73,"end":9509.088,"text":"像我們的年輕人假設很崇拜林木一郎那他就冒用林木一郎沒有說過的話去吸引你又或者說像之前這個總統大家就是三人成虎就說叫老人家去爬那每個人就會說我們賴總統叫老人家去爬屋頂然後就仇恨自己的國家元首"},{"start":9509.648,"end":9531.699,"text":"又或者是說像現在的孩子看多了因此他開始喜歡用支那語用支語像是很多的語言視頻他就不講影片了公車他就講成公交車諸如此類我們的土豆其實是他們的馬鈴薯所以搞得我們也不知道他到底在講什麼"},{"start":9532.799,"end":9560.938,"text":"那他的作文呢全篇也覺得這是流行他也覺得很酷很炫那很多這個認知的部分就是已經學生他們都問他要不要打仗他們都喜歡統一就不戰自敗也都不用打仗了用這種溫水煮的方式甚至是用網紅他看起來是知識頻道其實他在裡面偷渡了很多意識形態的東西那又或者是說他們這個整個產業鏈呢"},{"start":9562.739,"end":9576.23,"text":"其實也都是一條龍流水線的方式從哪裡出來它有一個中央廚房然後有一個臉書的內容農場然後轉到哪裡特定媒體渲染之後平面媒體等等就這樣擴散開來用這種反串嫁禍不爭美舉"},{"start":9581.455,"end":9604.816,"text":"甚至自相AI的影片其实大家也都看到就是比过去的假讯息这种反串嫁祸其实还要发挥的淋漓尽致那回到我们教育我们在12年国教课刚有看到资讯教育这里头呢资讯科技的使用态度也强调习惯态度还有资讯的伦理等等"},{"start":9605.416,"end":9631.179,"text":"但是我們翻遍所有的版本所有的教科書發現只有國中的公民他有教媒體試讀然後我們的國小翻遍綜合健康發現根本沒有相關的內容所以我們最需要預防的應該是我們的國小"},{"start":9632.447,"end":9649.815,"text":"結果我們發現漏接那這個部分是學生所以我想先請教一下我們的次長教育部次長就是我們已經進入到一個後真相時代就是我們知道哎呀也有真也有假那我乾脆就全部都不相信好了"},{"start":9650.996,"end":9678.671,"text":"那這個部分現在媒體試讀它其實會變成是很重要的一個素養但是我們的課本所教的內容已經不敷所需或甚至根本沒有所以請教一下市長你是不是認同像我們的國小中高年級甚至是從低年級開始我們是不是應該要重新去檢視我們這些綜合健康等等領域"},{"start":9679.751,"end":9689.779,"text":"那這些是不是應該要有教授如何辨識這些媒體呀或者是對這些身心健康有害的內容需不需要"},{"start":9691.377,"end":9712.127,"text":"当然需要那有做吗有现在我们在12年国民教育的课纲里面的综合活动领域在国小第三学期阶段的时候就纳入了所谓的那个媒体试读的学习的内容那有相当多有各式媒体资源的分析判读"},{"start":9713.387,"end":9739.238,"text":"要老師帶領然後還有媒體對平常生活的影響然後還有各式各樣的解決資源那不管是康軒或者是南一或者是漢林他們都有相對的一些課程我們事後會再把一些說明給委員看是都有啦那這些內容老師他是怎麼樣的進行教學"},{"start":9740.185,"end":9767.359,"text":"我們在 我剛才有講過就是說我們現在所有的中小學老師我們都有給他們的AI或者數位媒體的課程那是進修對 進修 在職進修都已經說 已經百分之百了那相信所有老師都應該知道怎麼去運用它利用融入式的教學引導這些學生知道這些事情但是如果 還有我剛才講的如果還有更進一步的需求如果要針對AI的部分"},{"start":9767.739,"end":9780.454,"text":"我們資格司也會推動所謂的對深層式AI如何在教學上如何使用那請教一下次長其實你們應該也要去做一個調查統計"},{"start":9782.637,"end":9809.459,"text":"因为很多的老师他可能自己本身他这个媒体试读或者是AI辨识的能力其实也是很差为什么呢因为我们也可以听到很多人也很容易受诈骗很多人他也很容易意识形态被渗透因为我们从群组当中从大家转发的内容我们都可以很了解这个情形非常的严重"},{"start":9810.14,"end":9831.958,"text":"那我們到底怎麼辦我們來看一下我們的師培課程像我們的中等師培課程它有一門叫閱讀暨資訊素養教育就兩學分而且是選修那來看小學的師培一樣有閱讀暨資訊素養教育而且也是兩學分也是選修那次長您覺得這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":9834.819,"end":9861.702,"text":"事实上我们教育部也看到这一点部长也要求一定要加强那已经以1130年度我们在教育专业课程里面就有开设媒体素养的教育现在已经有相关的课程已经有47校288个系所开设了915个课程现在已经有15700多个的师资生那市长"},{"start":9863.283,"end":9887.907,"text":"我其實只是要提醒就是希望教育部可以重視那麼要定期的去做調查去做一個檢視然後做政策的檢討然後要求我們的課綱也好課程內容也好或者是進修內容也好我希望這個部分其實今天委員會排這個主題蠻重要的因為我們正在深受其害"},{"start":9888.887,"end":9905.564,"text":"所以我是希望說我們的老師要跟得上而且要比學生有更強的識讀辨別的能力我們面對這個TikTok對世界的影響它配合手機直視然後呢 簡短一分鐘"},{"start":9906.765,"end":9921.666,"text":"連我們的YouTube也改了呢它也在學抖音變直視一分鐘呢那我們的IG的reels也是都在跟著TikTok在改變那這個當中我覺得學校很可怕因為學生"},{"start":9922.287,"end":9937.294,"text":"他只有什麼呢output在學看這些一分鐘重點在要的東西但是他完全沒有input他沒有足夠的能力去輸出他影響我們的學校教育坐不住沒辦法好好上課因為他只能忍受一分鐘"},{"start":9938.334,"end":9955.782,"text":"他也沒有辦法處理大量的訊息課本的這些內容手機的這些知識內容他沒有辦法快速的處理所以這個影響到我們未來的教育所以我是希望說這個部分希望能夠有這樣的一個回應讓我們知道而且可能"},{"start":9956.822,"end":9981.71,"text":"調查的速度要很快那我在這個地方更擔心的是安全的部分因為我們看到太多的影音軟體它為了追求流行它要模仿 它要拍 它要上傳結果呢 危害到兒少的一個安全像抱頭的啊 敲門快寶或者是冷凍後加熱等等所以在這個地方請教一下因為我們的兒少福法第46條之一"},{"start":9983.351,"end":10001.571,"text":"有提到說任何人不得與網路散佈傳送有害兒童及少年身心健康的內容也提到46條這個是由通訊傳播主管機關來去造極各目的事業主管機關所以我們國內除了兒少全法"},{"start":10002.512,"end":10021.329,"text":"我們對青少年短影音好像也沒什麼其他的具體的管制措施所以這個部分我看到公共政策平台要求強化抖音資通管理全民數位媒體的有60幾個提案表示名氣可用所以我不太曉得說NCC也好"},{"start":10022.27,"end":10047.106,"text":"速發部 衛福部 教育部像有的國家他們其實是像印度2020年起全面禁止所有人民使用TikTok還有多項的中國App美國猶他州也有家長什麼宵禁 極點使用禁止演算法等等很多的國家都有我是在想說我們的國家有沒有在著手這一步"},{"start":10050.835,"end":10068.487,"text":"跟委員報告在資安的部分的話可能要請那個消費部這邊來跟因為資安的問題其實涉及到所有的平台其實都有同樣的問題就資安的部分那以及各自的部分可能涉及到各個委會至少兒少法說是由通訊傳播主管機關召集各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":10069.147,"end":10088.654,"text":"因為那個依照46條的規定的話目前我們也召集相關機關我們成立了iWIN這樣的一個第三方的機構來幫我們推動在兒少法46條第一項裡面的七大任務其中有一部分委員剛才提到的那畫面如果說假設它是一種仇恨性的或者是一種"},{"start":10090.935,"end":10109.243,"text":"一種自殺性毀滅性的這些內容的話目前我們安慰已經有召集所有相關的這些多方利害關係人我們有個歷史框架透過這個歷史框架我們的聯絡剛才在報告裡面也有提到我們跟四大平台包含像YouTube"},{"start":10110.223,"end":10119.169,"text":"IG Tiktok這些總共四大平台我們都有一個綠色管道通過我們歷史框架如果假設它的內容是違反我們的歷史框架的那我們會通知我們希望能夠早日感受到演算法時間控管平台責任家長協作監督機制我們可以希望儘快感受到我們現在是感受不到很緊張"},{"start":10135.759,"end":10158.773,"text":"那最後一個就是可能這是速發部就是現在有一個困擾就是在遊戲裡面它會有廣告然後你也無法跳過因為它就是遊戲裡面的廣告不是遊戲之外的廣告因為它逼你看完之後這些新三色的東西就可以復活就可以抽獎就可以得到bonus這些"},{"start":10159.673,"end":10188.104,"text":"那因為遊戲內容復活我看今天的夜報也有就是遊戲軟體分級管理辦法有但是對於這種管不到遊戲裡面的廣告那這個部分就形成法律的一個真空所以我們是希望說遊戲軟體分級管理辦法因為它會管到軟體的內容也會管到軟體的廣告但是管不到遊戲裡面的廣告所以這個部分是不是會納入"},{"start":10190.139,"end":10211.551,"text":"报告委员游戏软体里面的广告我们相信还是可以用这个儿少权法来做处理只要他有违反儿少的管制的措施的话那边是那边可是你的是管理办法对我们的游戏管理办法母法也是在儿少权法那您会配合修进去纳入吗在我们的办法里面吗"},{"start":10212.231,"end":10235.3,"text":"對啊OK 這個可以把它你不能說母法有你辦法就不要OK 我們再來演繹因為這個目前是漏接的好嗎好那希望就是兩週內可以給我一個說明好 我們回去演繹OK 好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝吳立華委員質詢官員請回座接下來請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":10245.708,"end":10252.861,"text":"謝主席 有請次長請劉次長好 次長好"},{"start":10253.854,"end":10279.988,"text":"我們今天在討論這個影音對這個孩子的影響但教育部的今日我們看到報告裡面有很多是引用國外的研究對吧但是在台灣我認為我們自己的孩子實際的使用狀況是什麼還有影響又是什麼目前的資料我覺得相對的不夠清楚我就提出幾個數據大家一起來探討BBC中文"},{"start":10281.041,"end":10295.949,"text":"有講出這份報導在台灣小紅書的活躍用戶大概300萬但是IG他擁有的這個使用國高中以下的用戶有89%有在使用IG82%使用FB"},{"start":10301.471,"end":10326.665,"text":"小红书相对在国高中的使用用户大概在30%左右所以我要说的是台湾的孩子到底怎么用短影音怎么去受到这些内容影响的状况使用多久的短影音的内容去浏览甚至这些影响会造成什么样的一个变化目前看起来我觉得国内的资料相对不足也不够系统化"},{"start":10328.288,"end":10343.906,"text":"那我也要問一下你看喔我們用這個國外的資料研究來推估孩子台灣的孩子的狀況我覺得有一定的差距為什麼作息的時間不同"},{"start":10345.424,"end":10357.694,"text":"因為我們的課程就不一樣嘛孩子在學校待的時間就不一樣嘛對不對我們是出了名的在亞洲地區我們出了名的是小朋友學習時間太長了好 課後的補習"},{"start":10359.028,"end":10387.533,"text":"基本上小朋友都要課後補習還有回家功課的模式也不一樣家庭陪伴的型態居住的環境跟國外都差的蠻多的所以國內的實證資料我覺得非常關鍵那想請問一下教育部目前有沒有做過完整的全國調查來掌握台灣學生目前對於整個短影音影片的使用狀況各位報告沒有那我請國教院補充說明"},{"start":10388.902,"end":10411.497,"text":"各位委員報告目前我們沒有針對有關短影音的部分來做相關的研究所以我們市長我剛剛講了說為什麼要用還有實際的差別你覺得重不重要重要重要我們要不要調查應該那您覺得多久可以調查完一年內希望可以再快一點"},{"start":10413.482,"end":10433.628,"text":"加油好不好因為你拖了一年的時候不要說你拖啦你執行了一年以後我們才知道狀況怎麼去下這個藥來對症下藥嘛對不對那就晚了一年了對於孩子的這個媒體識讀很重要你知不知道有一群民眾"},{"start":10435.579,"end":10454.733,"text":"國人是非常希望恢復禮義廉恥的你知不知道我知道那你知不知道現在21世紀AI世代媒體嗜讀就是很重要的品德教育之一對吧是的也是屬於為什麼他們想要著重於禮義廉恥就是希望品德教育嘛"},{"start":10455.293,"end":10477.535,"text":"那現在的AI世代現在的媒體世獨就是把這個部分做好品德教育就會做得好所以我認為半年可不可以剛剛我說的數據資料調查包委我認為這一個是全面性的研究跟調查半年可能"},{"start":10478.533,"end":10499.527,"text":"有點趕但是我再問你一次你覺得這個數據重不重要重要但是半年可以初步的報告這樣就好了因為我知道你不敢隨便答應半年你怕做不到但是你知道很重要我們半年會給你初步的調查至少你要有初步執行然後一年把它完整的調查出來可不可以可以我覺得了解台灣的孩子"},{"start":10500.367,"end":10529.261,"text":"才能夠對症下藥不然真的我們再拿到這個整個都是國外的研究不是說你們不認真我認為有一定的差距好不好國小國中高中各個年齡層大學他的短影音的使用量還有每天看什麼平台對不對剛剛我講的89在IG82%在FB小紅書才主要是30%當然他沒有提到TikTok但是我認為TikTok也蠻多的"},{"start":10529.941,"end":10558.261,"text":"有多多 我舉一個案例就好了我們在國小前幾年吧當你走進去 你對著小朋友經過他旁邊喔 你說愛你孤身走暗巷他馬上會回一句愛你不畏的模樣當你跟他走過去 你會說這是為什麼就是短影音他們流行的歌曲嘛"},{"start":10559.732,"end":10577.022,"text":"你就知道他們在流行什麼嘛所以他只是一首歌但是他的傳播力我想最近大家都知道嘛那個王世堅委員匆匆忙忙游刃有餘嘛也是非常非常的爆紅但是我要再跟您說明的一件事情今天也有很多委員跟你在講"},{"start":10578.359,"end":10602.526,"text":"不是我們要幫Ttalk講話小紅書講話我們沒有要幫他們講話而是我們要知道整個使用用戶到底他的習慣在哪裡就講一個最白的就好了今天你是一個網紅你在Ttalk拍的影片你會不會希望直接也搬到FB直接就上架會嗎會不會直接就在IG就上架"},{"start":10604.265,"end":10621.025,"text":"會嘛因為他好不容易拍出這個影片了嘛他在TikTok看到有流量他會不會直接希望在FB也有流量會嘛所以不是只是封TikTok就好了今天如果你把它封了我們的媒體識讀能夠救上來我一定支持但是我們發現就是"},{"start":10621.926,"end":10636.94,"text":"所有的這些直播主也好網紅也好他一定會將所謂的短影片直接搬家在不同的平台上架所以會影響到我們的孩子的絕對是影片的內容而不是單一平台"},{"start":10638.38,"end":10667.419,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠了解那再來我要跟你講就是說更重要的是孩子滑多久滑完之後有什麼改變我們要去了解因為在教育現場直接就可以看到怎麼說小朋友滑很久上課注意力一定會下降睡眠不足情緒起伏比較大模仿不良行為所以這些甚至有容貌焦慮影響到學習的一個生態教育部有沒有對這些現象做過調查追蹤"},{"start":10668.3,"end":10682.193,"text":"我認為應該都是沒有的啦所以我希望一定要做我們有看到教育部有委託陽明教大在112年台灣中小學學生網路使用的行為調查報告"},{"start":10684.148,"end":10697.909,"text":"這份資料有啊這份資料很重要啊大家主要是中小學生啊而且觀察的是整體網路使用狀況並不是專門針對短影片啊也沒有看到高中跟大學所以有做有潛力只是不夠紮實啊"},{"start":10699.778,"end":10728.665,"text":"短影片現在的影響力是最高的變化最快的最推進學生的日常媒介所以為什麼需要更精準數據所以今天你承諾你一定會做是嗎好我想這個東西只有補齊了不管是對我們家長教育現場甚至教育部未來的一些政策衛福部也好抒發部也好我覺得有一個很重要的一個政策能夠指引所以我希望加油好嗎好的謝謝第二個我要說的是"},{"start":10729.785,"end":10757.101,"text":"你們在書面報告有提供到現在有這個數位工具包的成效我們看到很多都是校園端能夠做的防護措施包括封鎖不當的平台平板的管理校園過濾網路的過濾以及提供家長的守護兒少的數位工具包這都是校園端可以做的這我真的要講別再幫學校老師增加工作了"},{"start":10757.481,"end":10767.586,"text":"那老師真的很辛苦啊老闆就是拜託你相關的這些補貼給他們多一點但是有一個實質的問題我們不能忽視啊"},{"start":10768.877,"end":10792.174,"text":"小朋友使用短影音最大宗的時間九成以上都在校園外放學假日睡前補習的路上等校車的路上這些都是教育不管不到的啊所以真正累積的一個影響最後回到了影響到學校我要幫學校講話"},{"start":10794.161,"end":10816.224,"text":"所以教育部要怎麼樣跨部位再來想辦法努力學校外的事情處理校外的風險教育部在今年5月14召開記者會宣布四大方案之一就是一個家長兒少的工具包啊但是你們那個時候我要問當時說到9月啊9月後還有嗎還有還有到現在都有對"},{"start":10817.537,"end":10840.49,"text":"一直都會有一直都會有好那問題我們繼續講現在過了大約半年時間工具包相關的懶人包啊操作手冊教學影片我只能說很認真準備但是沒有人要看所以早上已經有人說了嘛你們這個實際的瀏覽數實際的下載量你們有相關的數據嗎下載量有多少"},{"start":10842.762,"end":10867.505,"text":"我們現在瀏覽量目前六月到現在有一萬五千人瀏覽六月到現在一萬五早上不是有委員說三百多那個是YouTube的影片而且會即時更新所以他在那一個影片會有六...我要講的是說還是很少啦有Google的有iOS的有Microsoft的但是"},{"start":10868.266,"end":10884.691,"text":"整個看到素材整理的很用心但是怎麼樣能夠推廣出去你配合四大業者三大業者那你覺得他真的會落實嗎有沒有誘因這些畢竟是他們是商業模式啊"},{"start":10886.448,"end":10910.524,"text":"難道你有辦法告訴他每一個在修理手機買手機的都會主動推銷要下載我們的工具包嗎有沒有誘因我認為沒有誘因沒有誘因你要怎麼樣讓他們能夠在推廣這個工具包更落實剛剛我們在講的活躍用戶小紅書30%你知道FB的下載量是多少嗎你知道IG多少嗎"},{"start":10916.564,"end":10938.387,"text":"一定很少為什麼因為手機一買直接就在裡面了啦它是內建程式我們的工具包有辦法做到內建嗎不可能嘛但是有沒有辦法再跟業者好好的溝通增加誘因讓業者在第一線的這些工作人員願意推廣羊毛豬在羊身上啊我們持續溝通"},{"start":10940.175,"end":10955.026,"text":"這雖然不是你單一的責任但是我們講很現實的你要利用三大業者這樣的方向本席一定認同但是你要怎麼用到淋漓盡致不是我有用了結果沒有推廣出去不是你的問題不是啊"},{"start":10955.726,"end":10980.978,"text":"你們整理這麼好的素材還做了懶人包沒有人要下載有什麼用呢真正能夠幫助這些工具包我覺得希望能夠更加的落實不是透過iWIN而已iWIN很好但是iWIN是被動接受檢舉嘛能不能主動出擊這個部分我希望能夠再加強推動半年了目前為止我認為這樣的使用數據跟效果真的有待加強而且弱勢家長"},{"start":10982.52,"end":11006.455,"text":"他們對於這樣子的一個使用能力去看到懶人包甚至他覺得用到一半他就不會想去用了啊透過業者幫忙主動教學嗎我覺得很難啊所以我要講的是這樣的做法有了初步的方向但是怎麼落實很重要請你加油好 惠德謝謝羅廷維委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請王逸川委員質詢"},{"start":11011.833,"end":11022.307,"text":"執行時間4分鐘好 謝謝主席 我們請教育部次長請劉次長"},{"start":11027.691,"end":11053.618,"text":"好 次長我知道教育部很努力啊這個在學校裡頭啊想辦法禁掉抖音小紅書這害死台灣孩子的東西啊你們做得不錯這個方向是對的要繼續加油謝謝委員這些小紅書叫中國的抖音啊不管叫抖音叫TikTok啦這都害死台灣孩子啦這你們一定要顧住第二個"},{"start":11054.967,"end":11081.321,"text":"現在市長有沒有把握現在高中 國中 國小在校園裡面沒有人在看抖音我只能保證說我們的學術網路裡面沒有抖音跟小紅書那學生如果中間有機會用到手機他有沒有機會在學校裡頭拿抖音給同學看是有可能的是有可能要不要禁掉"},{"start":11083.737,"end":11085.382,"text":"教育部不是進這個的主管機關機進不進得掉"},{"start":11089.16,"end":11115.283,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果是校園裡面的手機學生要使用手機是學習的用途所以如果不是學習的用途就是學校裡面是不會讓學生使用手機的學習的用途可不可以學習抖音跟委員報告這個部分應該是說這一些應該我們都有在宣導所以這個應該都是我們是會禁止的學校校園裡頭"},{"start":11118.518,"end":11137.805,"text":"這個投螢幕出來 電視裡頭出來會不會有抖音的影片應該不會因為如果他用的是學術網路是看的好 那手機有機會手機如果他連的是我們的學術網路是沒有機會的那如果連的是自己的現在孩子都吃到飽了那什麼人家學校網路"},{"start":11138.673,"end":11159.045,"text":"對啊 如果學生用抖音的方式教的作業如果要老師批閱的話 一樣他還是沒有辦法用因為學校的本身沒有這個機制那學校的老師認不認為用抖音升小學生是不對的"},{"start":11160.256,"end":11184.036,"text":"我們在教在我們的學士老師的在職技修上面我們都一再的一再的宣導而且是希望他們不要不要用再強調如果在校內使用抖音學術網路上是絕對學校老師有沒有反彈到目前我們還沒有收到任何的反彈確定"},{"start":11189.572,"end":11191.463,"text":"所以學校老師也不會反對"},{"start":11193.179,"end":11221.816,"text":"這個校園的學術網路上課的時候不用抖音對吧我當老師的時候我也不希望你當老師你是大學老師不一樣啊我現在講的是國中小老師啦我們的在老師的教學在在媒體素養的培訓上面我們都要求因為老師很重要這個次長你在學校教書教學生教報告教他教PDF他就要教PDF教他教我的他就要教我的"},{"start":11222.336,"end":11248.604,"text":"對吧格式不對你就不會收嘛所以中小學的老師啊如果叫學生交作業交作業喔有一種作業叫比如暑假作業拍跟父母出去玩的影音圖文小朋友交抖音來如果學校老師說交抖音我不收交TikTok我不收他就回去跟家長講說我們老師說不可以我們老師只收什麼的這個比較快啦"},{"start":11250.976,"end":11278.067,"text":"是的 没错吧是的 在技术上面如果老师可以改作业是在学校环境里面那应该跟委员报告一样我们的学术网络上面并没有抖音这个APP所以学生即便教了这个他也没办法批阅所以势必老师会要求学生用IG或其他的形式来教教其实也达到刚才委员的方式好 很好"},{"start":11278.707,"end":11286.73,"text":"希望教育部繼續努力把海獅、台灣鷹、抖音、TikTok、小紅書都刮刮出去它出去以後要怎麼用家庭的東西我們沒辦法管"},{"start":11294.053,"end":11313.909,"text":"阿公阿嬤也在看這個 我們沒辦法處理在學校裡頭 包括學校的老師這一關就要守住不然這些的台灣孩子去給中國這些的東西害死對我們台灣是不利的教育部繼續加油 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝王逸川委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請謝榮介委員質詢"},{"start":11335.453,"end":11338.194,"text":"主席我請教報請劉市長喂好出場你好好講好有問題聽得懂聽得懂聽得懂聽得懂聽得懂這個"},{"start":11362.418,"end":11366.519,"text":"抖音要把它禁掉你哪有這個思維的各位報告 我們不是要盡量 而是我們的美國大陸的瞭解盡力的不夠辦法打敗他他很小時候我們現在叫做AI內閣"},{"start":11391.704,"end":11395.766,"text":"我當時在經濟委員會 為了AI 要給普及化 專民化你要怎麼有競爭力呢不管小紅書 不管什麼 我跟你說 我都鼓勵孩子進入但是你說這個東西裡面 美國金也金沒得 靠靠你們金的最好辦法 處理 了解 最好靠我做爸爸的"},{"start":11418.939,"end":11445.895,"text":"我們為什麼沒辦法沒自己的抖音呢?我們為什麼台灣沒辦法研發自己的平台、自己的社群呢?你要讓孩子有這個自由創意,這是我們的優點咧!我們台灣的孩子跟台中的孩子不一樣,就是我們的所創自由啊!我們的自由就太誇張了!你吃金吃金、吃金吃金!我不知道你以前讀書還聽過一句話嗎?"},{"start":11448.462,"end":11449.522,"text":"你幾年出的?"},{"start":11449.522,"end":11452.524,"text":"五三五三喔 你看我差不多講世代了以前我們都看世本的有沒有老鼠們都給我們禁嘛 這麼禁那禁 這樣不可以 那不可以越禁 我越想要感情可能?"},{"start":11452.524,"end":11453.104,"text":"可能喔那叫做鹽瓜腹出九七鹽白腹就出阿里不達"},{"start":11477.262,"end":11492.633,"text":"沒辦法啊,你每天都在謹記,我們是用正常健康的接觸我們要跟孩子說這是健康、這是不健康、這是對、這是不對現在的孩子的世界,真的網絡了他的世界,不是我們所想的那個世界啊只有謹記、怒吼,你知道最近網絡、抖音裡面最紅的是什麼嗎?"},{"start":11501.209,"end":11513.337,"text":"一些網紅 很多啦 但是譬如說 說抖音啦 好啦 說的最紅的什麼 你知道嗎 這兩個各位你不瞭解嘛 你要怎麼去約束教育制度 說叫孩子去瞭解什麼我告訴你這中小學的學生 這兩個各位最紅的什麼 你不知道王世堅所有的學校 你知道嗎"},{"start":11529.386,"end":11545.938,"text":"小朋友叫我拿王世堅的橡皮說你能不能幫我讓他簽名我去找 因為我找王委員 我說拜託 簽一下我問那孩子 我說阿翔有沒有 我們班就是這樣 大家都會唱啊這現在的世代 但是你說他會很久嗎 不會啦一波一波啊 一波一波啊"},{"start":11560.262,"end":11565.968,"text":"所以,我們既然合成AI的內閣,我們要對各行、各業、各戰促去發展我們的競爭力,對不對?你全部都用金的角度,我認為,沒辦法達到我們的目的,我不知道你的看法是什麼?"},{"start":11584.414,"end":11610.544,"text":"各位報告我們事實上是依法行政我們是依據我們今年通過的九月份的資通安全管理辦法是各級機關尤其是教育部所屬的學校都不能採購跟裝備中國大陸製造的軟硬體自然就包含了抖音跟小手機那沒問題啦那是APP應用軟體"},{"start":11613.72,"end":11630.048,"text":"在制度上 形式上 依法沒問題啦但是在教育上是我的嘛你說家庭只有因為這樣就被我配合人家全部都跟孩子一起我告訴你 如果家庭就要結盟這樣你有沒有了解到這一點"},{"start":11633.717,"end":11643.611,"text":"我們了解 像現在這個也不行 那也不行 那也不行我回去去更好 我去辦他也行 他也行 他也行 只有我不行媽媽這樣是要怎樣 家長跟孩子一間 要怎樣去面對"},{"start":11650.441,"end":11670.454,"text":"搞不好是不是要扶著孩子 尋找扶著家長我們有輔導家長 我們有那個工具包 對不對有有有 那個工具包我是跟你建議啦不要有意識形態的置入啦 沒有沒有台灣的油店就是煮油 因為我們就是煮油我們的輸送煮油造成我們今天的孩子 鼻子比較活潑"},{"start":11671.934,"end":11683.224,"text":"所以我們的競爭在右邊還在裡面如果連最重要的競爭在家主右邊都比A3這對我們教育來說是絕對絕對的負面我不知道你怎麼看"},{"start":11686.078,"end":11714.519,"text":"自由我們必須尊重但是在教育的現場如果有些網址網站的內容有這樣的內容違反到違法我現在在跟你說的我必須要去禁止我在跟你討論不是你以法所則改去禁的東西嘛對不對就是說你在年高新高的過程中對這個孩子在使用這些所有的平台使用3C的產品包括未來他要進入AI的世界你敢不敢"},{"start":11716.345,"end":11722.409,"text":"我們結合但是所以侷限在我們的教學以及學習上面我們其他的並沒有進去並沒有撲破"},{"start":11739.628,"end":11763.647,"text":"因為孩子出社會後,他就進入三夾界,包括我們現在傳統三夾面臨到關水的挑戰經濟部只說你產業要轉型,要怎麼轉型?我做很嚴謹的,一個月三萬,現在轉世界的薪水越來越多,大家都在提升如果你懂得AI,進入AI,把AI當成工具"},{"start":11764.793,"end":11780.405,"text":"那個時候全民都會蛻變啦,是不是這樣?並不是說因為AI的發展,你的工作機會就去到百十幾啊,那這樣是不是要對學校的教育就要開始啊?要讓他們有這種的概念,是不是這樣?"},{"start":11782.347,"end":11803.897,"text":"你們有做這種的結合嗎?有,我們有各式各樣的AI教育,教育AI但是你教育他,要讓他會善用啊是的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,會的,"},{"start":11806.778,"end":11820.382,"text":"整個社會都是這種環境這樣好不好好你把你們對著這個孩子這部分的教育的設計跟辦法你一分輸給他們分析可以嗎可以好 感謝你謝謝謝榮介委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請張雅琳委員質詢"},{"start":11837.554,"end":11842.419,"text":"好 那我們請述發部跟教育部 謝謝述發部胡竹蜜跟教育部劉次長好 我想剛剛那個謝委員我想他應該是蠻吃素的啦為什麼紅的是王世堅不是他這樣子"},{"start":11859.455,"end":11876.853,"text":"那不過我想因為接續剛剛的題目我可能也會再重複再問一次就是有關於說這個抖音的部分我們看到速發部有一些做法但是我也要強調一件事情就是說今天為什麼這個這麼的嚴重就是說我們在很多的國際研究顯示了"},{"start":11877.794,"end":11891.453,"text":"他們用模擬的方式用模擬一個13歲的孩子在加入了這樣子的平台之後大概幾個小時之後這個TikTok會推播給他超過一半的內容都是攸關"},{"start":11893.175,"end":11911.316,"text":"自殺自傷自殘的一些相關的資訊所以為什麼TikTok它是一個非常危險的一個平台那特別是說呢現在有九根據這個台灣傳播調查資料庫最新的資料台灣九到十二歲的孩子都在使用TikTok"},{"start":11912.199,"end":11938.516,"text":"所以我個人是非常支持我們要去禁因為這個禁是跟孩子的生命息息相關了所以我想問一下就是說現在出發部有說我們要來禁可是做法說是要遮蔽中小學的Wi-Fi連線忘記拿幫我按好了忘記拿那個遙控了不好意思 幫我按要遮蔽中小學的Wi-Fi連線限制兒校透過校園網路連線到TikTok"},{"start":11939.176,"end":11956.91,"text":"所以我們也有要提出這個不適合15歲以下青少年使用的APP清單那目前學校的管控技術是透過這個行動裝置管理技術進行管控例如他可能在使用平板的時候都是用MVM來管控個人的載具也需要申請核准"},{"start":11958.192,"end":11980.891,"text":"那好像有一些做法但是呢其實家長的意見不一因為大家會認為其實是無法全面防範的特別是說也有學生來表示說我們都有自己的門號吃到飽啊進不進根本就沒有差所以校長也有講同樣的意思就是防不勝防甚至我們現在已經看到了已經有網站來教他如何破解"},{"start":11983.598,"end":11998.824,"text":"好如何來去破解這件事情如何越獄所以我想請抒發部跟教育部都來說明一下我們到底還有什麼更積極的做法來因應這樣子現在已經發現的這個破解之道可不可以請教育部先說明然後再請抒發部補充"},{"start":12002.267,"end":12029.614,"text":"跟委員報告是我們還是強調我們是有關於這些抖音跟小紅書的因為它是大陸製的軟體我們沒有辦法就是就在我們的沒有辦法在我們的所謂的深深有平板斑斑有平板深深用平板的載具上面去下載這些東西這是確定的那我們的學術網路上也是不會有擁有的所以在學校的"},{"start":12030.894,"end":12055.421,"text":"學習環境裡面是無法使用抖音跟小紅書的至於他要不要利用自己的手機跟用ADSL來使用那就是可能是書發部要有進一步的除非他已經他去的一些網站他內容上已經違反了所謂的兒少法的規定我們會透過iWIN的機制去叫"},{"start":12056.958,"end":12081.771,"text":"業者下架如果業者不下架我們教育部才會接著就下架至於其他這個我們就請蘇巴布好了好 茲克斯是跟委員報告就是目前我們教育部所管的所有的載具不會有這樣的狀況我知道剛剛次長已經說明了有新的資訊嗎對 應該是這樣講因為我們是整個都會列管所以它只要"},{"start":12082.831,"end":12110.148,"text":"就是越獄了我們就會知道有一台不在我們的管轄裡面還有它的使用量所以這個目前不會有這個是不會發生的就對了對 我們會密切注意這個議題謝謝委員好 謝謝 那我們請蘇巴布網路當然是透過Wi-Fi它內的或者是我們教育部會去處理它那個APP一定應該是不能裝 是不是"},{"start":12112.467,"end":12127.202,"text":"我想我剛剛講的是說今天其實是你只有屏蔽附近的網路學生其實用自己的方式其實是還是可以使用的所以我們才問說這樣子的一個做法我們有沒有什麼樣因應的方案還是發布現在完全沒想法"},{"start":12127.642,"end":12150.849,"text":"应该是说我们现在是正在盘点相关的比如说儿少有害的这些APP对然后我们也期待再跟卫福部或者是跟教育部共同讨论一下比如说我们在游戏的里面应该要怎么样去做一些我想问一下因为你新闻里面书发部有讲到会延你12岁以下孩童不能设T-talk我想知道到实务上面你要如何来执行这件事情"},{"start":12151.365,"end":12165.999,"text":"其實現在很多的像臉書也好會有一些這種社群媒體他們自己有一些自律可是有時候是家長幫他裝的所以這個部分可能家長的溝通也是非常重要所以我們像其他平台他們事實上都有一些自律機制"},{"start":12167.02,"end":12189.636,"text":"他們就要求說幾歲以下的小朋友對 但是問題是每個平台的約束就是我雖然有一些自制 我有一些控制但是我像今天大家在講的這個Ttalk相對於其他平台還是更弱的而且並不是那麼的明確不然我們的9到12歲小孩如果他講了12歲以下他們會去內控的話那我們怎麼會有超過一半的小孩都在使用呢這就顯示了他這個內控機制是有問題的"},{"start":12192.579,"end":12208.476,"text":"對委員指正的是不過這個部分我們後續真的會再跟衛福部還有教育部來共同討論那速發部可以技術上面提供必要的支持謝謝好我是希望還可以有更積極的去做法不然我覺得這樣子其實只有靠平台自治其實是沒有辦法解決的這個問題因為對他來說"},{"start":12210.658,"end":12228.378,"text":"並沒有什麼壞處啊大家多使用TikTok多使用小紅書對他來說反而是一件好事嘛對不對好那我想問一下就是說我們現在其實在許多的國家呢都有一個非常積極的做法我不曉得說蘇巴布知不知道說這個澳洲其實已經禁了大概是九個吧"},{"start":12230.64,"end":12242.978,"text":"九哥的這個app那我們是不是對於澳洲的一個做法因為據說我收到的消息是法國也要跟進了那我不曉得我們對於澳洲的做法他怎麼做的我們有沒有清楚的了解"},{"start":12245.343,"end":12265.962,"text":"这个部分有没有禁止儿少来使用这些社群媒体的部分刚才讲其实我们相关的法规的主管机关还是在卫福部或者是教育现场这样子所以这个必须要跨部会来一起了解然后一起去做必要的处置对但是因为是你们自己的报告里面有写啊"},{"start":12267.576,"end":12287.828,"text":"對啊這是一個研究不過它還是需要跨部會就主管機關來就法律上面看怎麼處理這樣子所以這樣聽起來你們沒有了解還是靠其他的部會是嗎技術上面我們可以處理沒有問題技術上面我知道政策上面應該要怎麼樣定調怎麼樣去進行那所以我們了解他們怎麼去做這個年齡驗證的技術"},{"start":12289.905,"end":12314.567,"text":"其实年龄验证有时候是去买手机的时候就可以去做必要的控管那这个很多技术面我们真的还可以再讨论好 了解 谢谢那接下来我们再请回来教育部就是说我其实一直都非常关注这个议题那也因为这个儿少使用这些社交平台里面会衍生到后续的不管是儿少诈骗"},{"start":12315.248,"end":12339.8,"text":"或者是這個兒少性剝削影像的一個流出那其實甚至還有人會因此因為洩漏了太多的在上面跟孩子要了太多的個資或者是兒童自己不小心沒有意識因為大概有超過一半的孩子其實都沒有意識到他傳遞的這一些個資之後可能會造成後患無窮的問題那我想問一下就是說我們這個數位素養"},{"start":12340.74,"end":12360.196,"text":"好 我們現在的一些宣導跟教案的部分呢根據我從老師還有家長的回應是說我們都非常的簡單 非常的直接就是跟那小朋友說不要…而是我們其實沒有提供太多的一個情境讓孩子知道說可能犯罪者會如何的犯罪這樣小孩才有意識到說這好像是一種犯罪的情境"},{"start":12361.656,"end":12384.366,"text":"因為我也要跟教育部要求就是說因為這些壞人其實都非常了解孩子在青少年時期跟家長的關係可能沒那麼好學校有很多的同儕壓力他都太了解了所以如果我們沒有在這些劇本裡我們不了解這個犯罪情境我們沒有呈現給孩子孩子真的不知道他已經掉入陷阱了所以我們在這些相關的教案上面我們還有精進的空間嗎"},{"start":12385.905,"end":12404.599,"text":"有的有的有的我們事實上每年都有請老師的在職在職訓練有關於不管是媒體素養跟數位媒體素養那我們也會請那個剛才我有報告過我們會請有資音院的教學的老師跟專家學者入校手把手的"},{"start":12405.519,"end":12430.082,"text":"教学协助还有教材的设计我们会及时的将一些案例放入里面的学习如果委员有一些新的或更好的资源我们教育部都会愿意放到我们及时更新的教材只有不断的更新老师的培训才会积极的带领学生去试诈了解不要被骗这样子"},{"start":12430.704,"end":12445.535,"text":"因為我時間已經到了我再簡單要一個資料就是說我們目前針對於這些數位素養對於學生的部分我們有幾個版本然後我們更新的頻率還有我們現在在學校裡面是不是有要求有多少的時數"},{"start":12446.916,"end":12466.86,"text":"那這個資料是不是可以提供給我那同時我們對於家長的一些要求又是什麼或是有沒有一些相關的指引這個東西也是非常重要的因為有蠻多的家長其實小孩子的個資是因為家長而洩露出去的好 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請陳俊宇委員質詢時間四分鐘"},{"start":12484.755,"end":12509.43,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 我們有請劉次長請劉次長好 次長午安在這個數位時代兒少接觸短影音社群媒體還有深層式的AI時間越來越長媒體素養已非一個學習的選項而是生活必備的能力一向"},{"start":12511.01,"end":12535.936,"text":"透過教育積極培育的基本素養教育部在2023年發布的最新版本它是數位時代媒體素養教育白皮書建置了媒體素養教育的資源網在網站中也有許多資源可以利用但是仍有幾個問題我想在此請教一下次長"},{"start":12536.736,"end":12553.378,"text":"報告中對在職研習的描述非常完整但對於師資培育端著墨較少師培課程過去很少處理媒體素養再加上學科的界線模糊"},{"start":12554.139,"end":12582.16,"text":"怎麼教 誰來教會變成第一線老師共同的一個困惑雖然白皮書中明確提起鼓勵各師資在培育大學踴躍開設相關的課程並定期於這個課程發展平台來檢核開課的這個學分與時數但是教育部目前所掌握有多少這個校系是以這個獨立課程方式來開設媒體素養或是相關的主題"},{"start":12583.081,"end":12606.782,"text":"而有多少是以各科融入為主這部分是請次長簡要說明一下好 謝謝委員關切我們實質培育未來的老師如何因應未來的AI的素養目前我們的資料下面是以獨立課程開設媒體素養的還有相關主題的課一共有38校38校一共開設了116門課"},{"start":12609.304,"end":12621.667,"text":"共有1938人次的研習第二個就是如果以各科融入式的媒體素養教育相關課程一共有44校這個detail資料會再給委員44校並開設了799門課相當多然後一共有13805名"},{"start":12632.61,"end":12658.363,"text":"這師師生已經開始上課了所以我們會持續辦理所以在這方面我們算是課程蠻豐富的我們會持續辦理另外在課程發展平台檢核的時候除了有沒有開課時數之外教育部同時會不會去關注課程內容是否真正處理到兒少目前常見的媒體議題而不是形式化的一個課程"},{"start":12659.722,"end":12685.807,"text":"事实上我们在独立的课程里面事实上就已经要提到说课程内容有关于媒体批判还有媒体的专题还有媒体试读还有媒体伦理还有等等这些都已经在含挂在课程里面那有关各科的内容也是类似所以其实在他们快要变成老师的时候我们就已经能够在里面了"},{"start":12687.355,"end":12715.308,"text":"在還沒有變成老師之前好那在職的這個老師也有多元的這個研習管道我們在夜報中呈現了許多這個研習的場次還有人次例如這個媒體素養的研習還有精進教學計畫短影音的防護課程等等那我想進一步了解教育部是否掌握這些研習管道的實際參與情形那研習結束後教育部是否會提供後續的這個"},{"start":12716.648,"end":12743.525,"text":"延伸支持來協助我們老師在這個班級中實際來試行這個研習的內容而不是只停留在一次性的這個聽講首先謝謝委員在持續關切我們在職老師的進修在112年到114年之間我們補助師資培育的大學辦理教師在職進修所謂的真能學復班真能"},{"start":12744.045,"end":12767.013,"text":"他原來不是資訊的他來學分班一共7個班次那我們也估也辦理了29場次的中小學主任校長培訓班還有在職班 培留班等等一共3256人次那我們也鼓勵大學透過高等教育媒體素養發展的課程計畫培養種子老師在109到103一共培養156"},{"start":12773.415,"end":12794.04,"text":"這些從事老師剛才我已經有報告我們有一個叫手把手的計畫就是我們會邀請有經驗的教學的老師跟一些教授到各校如果各校對這個方面有需求我們會入校去手把手去精進然後我們在定期我們定期也會對"},{"start":12795.36,"end":12817.863,"text":"中小学的老师做真能的演习我也在书面上面报告你说在基本款A1 A2的已经百分之百19万6千名的老师已经完成了那现在进阶版的真能级是A3的课程现在已经有10%的老师会在那明年还会增加深层式的AI如何在经济在教学上面的课程"},{"start":12819.317,"end":12845.15,"text":"好 那最關鍵的我希望說老師在這個整個過程一定要是教得出來而且能夠讓我們的孩子能夠真的學得到因此也希望說教育部在既有的這個基礎上進一步強化我們之前與這個執教老師的這個相關支持讓我們媒體素養不只是政策上的一個願景而是讓我們孩子在上課的過程裡面"},{"start":12845.59,"end":12869.597,"text":"真正具備有他們想要學習的這個能力會的 我們會與時機際的去增加他的教材這樣子好 以上謝謝次長好 謝謝謝謝陳菊委員諮詢官員請回座接下來請陳培宇委員諮詢好 謝謝主席那有請教育部次長請劉次長喂好"},{"start":12874.687,"end":12901.429,"text":"好 智障午安是對 午安我想要跟你談一下關於今天的議題我們辦公室一直在這個議題上做的研究其實是從閱讀面切入我們來看一下其實已經有非常多專家學者提出來說當我們用越多的網路而我們的腦神經就會越習慣網路破碎的 然後片斷的甚至是影音動態的但是靜態閱讀它其實是需要安靜的穩定的神經迴路所以其實差別非常非常大"},{"start":12901.789,"end":12922.479,"text":"很多的老師、專家、學者甚至像黃哲斌他是在網路上長期的新聞觀察者和評論家他一直在提醒很多的家長要注意這個事情那對於家長來說當然他們有責任然後孩子們也需要在家長的協助底下開始學習閱讀但是我們在教育部這邊我們到底還能夠做哪些事情我們其實想要跟教育部這邊來持續討論再來"},{"start":12924.56,"end":12950.938,"text":"接下來有另外一個研究其實是台師大接受我們國家的委託長時間針對3到5歲的小孩使用3C的習慣來做調查跟研究結果發現現在在2022年他們的公告數字說台灣的小孩在3到5歲每一天用3C的時間已經來到兩個小時這是2022年的數字我相信如果現在去看2024或是20233到5歲的小孩用3C的時間絕對超過這個時間"},{"start":12953.86,"end":12977.219,"text":"回應我剛剛說的當我們網路用的越長資訊越片段然後越動態我們越難安靜的閱讀而孩子不能安靜的閱讀進到校園會發生什麼情況呢就是沒有辦法進入學術性科目的學習對不對我們沒有辦法反過來要求老師說你每一堂課國英術色字全部都用影片全部都用動畫全部都講笑話來教小孩"},{"start":12977.659,"end":12998.669,"text":"从来都不是这样所以对于现场的老师来说他们感觉到是困境是孩子们越来越难安静孩子们越来越学不会稳定所以也导致很多师生的冲突课堂经营的困难所以我们一直拜托教育部用阅读对抗3C这件事情下一张所以我在总咨询的时候也拜托过院长拜托过教育部长"},{"start":12999.52,"end":13019.731,"text":"我知道你們做了很多事情讓我把這邊講完那我們要感謝教育部在我們辦公室極力的呼籲也很多專家學者提出呼籲教育部已經先到學前階段你們做了努力我要先公開感謝你們你們說在114年到117學年度我們要在學前教育階段推出有系統的閱讀計畫"},{"start":13021.392,"end":13035.869,"text":"協助現場的幼教老師家長跟孩子我們從閱讀切入看起來不是直接對抗3C但是我們培養另外一個正向的能力這個真的非常非常非常感謝教育部那我們看到你們的"},{"start":13036.429,"end":13056.281,"text":"裡面相關計畫開始執行只是我現在發現另外一個困境我們有了錢但是你們給幼兒園的選書原則說到明年4月才會提供我猜想可能是在委託專家學者的時候有困難還是說組成研究團隊有困難這個部分因為我時間有限你們可不可以會後到我們辦公室來跟我們討論"},{"start":13057.542,"end":13071.478,"text":"因為看起來錢給了嘛可是現場我認為很多幼教老師在看到這些錢他們可能不知道怎麼選書或者是有了書不知道怎麼跟孩子做閱讀的課程計畫這個部分我們再來討論好不好好再來呢"},{"start":13072.219,"end":13100.92,"text":"谢谢你们我们当时提了幼教法的修法其实我分三个阶段第11条我要谈的是目标我们在幼教法里面我希望加入建立幼儿阅读兴趣第12条的版本我说持续提供图书跟阅读的相关资源第32条我希望我们在空间上也给予幼儿园支持这个是我自己的修法版本当然希望后续委员会有机会讨论也希望教育部也许在修法未完成之前我们可以政策先行好不好"},{"start":13102.02,"end":13127.868,"text":"好 時間有限我自己說 不好意思啦好 再來國中小的部分我們因為跟樂推老師有非常多的合作全台灣有非常多樂推老師之前我們辦公室辦了全台灣的公開座談非常感謝教育部你們以前都是一年一年計畫你們後來因應樂推老師的需求改成兩年計畫真的很棒 謝謝你們現在有老師問說對於表現優良的閱讀學校跟樂推老師可不可以給予三年計畫然後去排除掉一些你們"},{"start":13128.368,"end":13154.922,"text":"要擔心的防弊機制這個我們再來討論好不好好 次長你都說好好 我們再來討論我們會再持續演繹我們會再跟你們討論好 最後一趴樂推老師其實很多學校越來越多人發現樂推老師原來真的會教閱讀而且那個教的閱讀是真的讓小孩可以學會閱讀然後就會變得比較安靜變得比較穩定學術性科目也會變好那也感謝地方政府跟中央政府你們一直都有在這邊努力喔"},{"start":13155.222,"end":13176.888,"text":"可是很可惜我們現在看到國小有月推的比例大概不到30%國中比較多快要到50%可是總計來看其實不到30%我們真的希望未來才化法剛剛院長才開完記者會才化法新版才化法之後我們希望中央跟地方各自承擔月推老師的工作這個非常重要對不對次長跟你講一下是的"},{"start":13179.042,"end":13208.633,"text":"我剛講的閱推啊幼兒教育啊或者是國中小的購書計畫其實非常多都是希望用這麼多滿滿的閱讀資源對全國家長跟全國老師宣示說我們教育部在閱讀對抗3C這件事情我們有更多的決心我們一起努力所以最後投影片好你們可以把這張拍回去那我們辦公室也會再繼續跟你們開會喔就是第一個相關閱讀推動方案的計畫還有就是學權閱讀還有就是閱推老師的計畫還有最後才化法我們在教育部跟地方政府如何分工"},{"start":13209.453,"end":13228.241,"text":"積極推進閱讀資源這樣好不好好 次長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝裴育委員質詢謝謝次長其實這個對閱讀的推廣這個習慣的培養我也覺得非常非常的重要我非常支持裴育您所說的接下來請蔡奕宇委員質詢"},{"start":13236.138,"end":13240.807,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請教育部次長慶雄次長喂好次長好"},{"start":13246.811,"end":13264.347,"text":"市長我們現在行政院有一個框架叫做AI新十大建設所謂針對人才培育的方面就是認為說在2025年到2027年大概平均每年至少要增加3000到4000的AI的數位人才"},{"start":13266.969,"end":13296.117,"text":"那這個人才培育當然就是未來台灣的整個AI跟生活的一個落實那在教育面當然是優先要的那我們教育部現在到底要怎麼來啟動我們不管是中小學他們如何去做AI的這樣的一個對學生的教育呢那是不是有請次長說明一下有關於您關鍵的人才培育是我們教育部很重要的政策以及發展"},{"start":13297.267,"end":13324.702,"text":"那在大學端這邊如果只要是跟AIAI跟資通上面的有人才需求的科系那只要是他的生思比在合乎條件的狀況之下我們都願意增加他的招生的名額然後詳細的我請高教師說明這是高教師我現在想要問的是我們怎麼落實在中小學這一塊那是不是請"},{"start":13325.658,"end":13341.185,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是我們教育部基本上我們就是國中跟國小是在建立學生AI的基礎那我們教育部推的他們知道使用AI嘛對 有兩大主軸對一個是透過AI來學習"},{"start":13342.426,"end":13360.287,"text":"一個是學習AI所以透過AI來學習我們有開發教育用的AI工具然後同時讓他們用在各科的學習學習AI方面我們非常強調的是AI的使用要合理 正用 危害避免還有一些倫理議題我們從小就開始"},{"start":13362.469,"end":13389.879,"text":"然後到高中我們除了這個之外我們延續到高中我們有多元的AI的這種課程的一個選修然後除了這個部分之外我們開始讓高中生接觸到不同的AI應用比如說怎麼用AI來做探究或是問題解決然後再做不斷的持續深化然後再到大學就會是接到我們大學的一個專業人才還有"},{"start":13391.019,"end":13418.958,"text":"产育跟业界所需要的人才来做这样的一个培育所以在小学端的部分当然第一个就是说他们学习用AI以及怎么用AI作为他们学习的辅助工具那如果这一端的话是不是也是需要要有对应的一些老师所以老师也要有他的叫做AI的教材那我们还是把它叫做补充教材那目前的补充教材是由谁来规划的"},{"start":13420.458,"end":13445.457,"text":"跟委员报告这个部分我们是由国教署跟智科师这一边我们会合作来规划所谓的委员提到的所谓的AI素养的教材那如果是老师怎么用AI在学科的教学比如说我怎么样用AI来教数学这些就是国教署跟智科师这边我们有发展出研习的内容"},{"start":13447.134,"end":13470.899,"text":"對 所以現在已經都出來了嗎是因為你們2026年就叫做AI教育的四年計畫就是明年就要上路了其實跟委員報告所以應該都要有教材對 跟委員報告就是我們剛才講的其實老師的培訓我們在今年年初的時候就已經開始在做對所以這一個部分陸陸續續我們就是開始在"},{"start":13471.879,"end":13495.943,"text":"這個我想老師學習是很快因為老師馬上他只要有教材他就是知道要怎麼去教導學生那學生在學AI相對也是快因為他只要會用手機 會用電腦基本上就知道怎麼去用AI但是AI所帶來的就是說包括剛剛講的倫理的問題包括怎麼去做深層式AI的訓練就是怎麼下這個指令"},{"start":13500.424,"end":13526.891,"text":"這個可能就是學生需要去學的這一塊那我還有一個比較憂心的就是說因為我們現在AI大概就是說在學校端就是叫做我們有叫做數位前導學校那是這樣的一個數位的一個前導學校在偏鄉地區尤其是學生人數比較少的偏鄉的學校有可能會讓他導入AI的你們的數位前導的一個學校嗎"},{"start":13528.322,"end":13546.445,"text":"偏鄉地區的還是會有機會他是前導學校他就有責任就是把他所發展的教材跟老師的教學經驗分享給其他的學校所以前導學校會先來訓練然後再分享到其他的學校"},{"start":13547.246,"end":13573.011,"text":"就是說我比較擔心教育部應該去注意就是說未來整個AI的一些課程他如果過於變得說集中在比較都會區的學校的話是不是會造成更大的在教學上的城鄉差距那這樣的話我想對偏鄉的小孩子他在學習AI上他可以得到的資源相對的少這個我覺得教育部是要注意的我們會特別注意好謝謝好謝謝次長"},{"start":13576.642,"end":13594.084,"text":"謝謝蔡易瑜委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請教育部次長請留次長"},{"start":13599.711,"end":13626.501,"text":"市長好我們來討論首先討論短影音的議題短影音現在席捲了全球然後不只是要佔這一波的流量紅利各大社群短影音主要的特色它就是很簡潔而且在很有限的時間之內能夠創發出爆發力跟創造力傳達訊息跟故事"},{"start":13627.541,"end":13649.926,"text":"但是在這樣有看似很輕鬆的一個娛樂形式的背後它卻有一些擔憂就是你會不會不知不覺的這個光開當中一直循環演算法不斷的去散播用戶他感覺他有興趣的內容他演算法出來他會針對你有興趣他跳出來"},{"start":13650.986,"end":13669.162,"text":"所以會使人一刷再刷而且難以停手他不斷地在刷進一步會影響到專注力跟時間的管理特別本期要跟你討論的是兒童跟青少年他如果成癮的這個問題我們要怎麼樣去應對"},{"start":13672.225,"end":13693.172,"text":"因為我們看到丹麥有宣布這樣的方向將要禁止15歲以下的兒童使用社群媒體同時也有提案說要授權給13歲以上的孩子授權給父母來決定是不是同業孩子來使用社媒"},{"start":13694.193,"end":13708.525,"text":"這樣的一個協議方向也得到丹麥很多的政黨的支持但是國家在保護兒少的行為也從現實面去引申到整個網路的世界丹麥 法國"},{"start":13710.487,"end":13733.882,"text":"澳洲那都有這樣的方向那換句話說AI的生活是離開不了人類而且是每一天都非常的密切但是我們要反映出如果說這個兒童因為線上成癮跟有害導致他的心理的部分呢那麼部長你認為你要怎麼樣的"},{"start":13736.264,"end":13747.44,"text":"這個代表部長來的次長你認為要怎麼樣的加強兒商的這個部分使用社群媒體的這個行為呢請就說明教育部"},{"start":13751.138,"end":13763.709,"text":"回答的是在校園内还是一样是因为我们将通过九月份通过的知通管理办法我们在学术网路上学校各有学术网路上就不得"},{"start":13766.142,"end":13790.451,"text":"裝設或安裝有中國製的所製的所謂的軟硬體這個單案包括了所謂特定的一些這個是針對限制這個部分區塊的APP本席請教的也就是說整體性你的教育不是只有在學校內你的家庭教育社會教育他都touch得到而且你的APP你到底要不要分級"},{"start":13791.852,"end":13806.165,"text":"你要怎麼樣能夠避免兒童去接觸到這個不適當的內容嗎除了你要怎麼樣管控不影響他的身心身心以及時間的管控第二個你的APP有沒有要分機請做說明"},{"start":13807.427,"end":13824.327,"text":"APP如何分局我想請蘇發布回答我們在校園內跟家長之間我們有素養教育我們也有數位工具包還有家長老師學生的使用守則我們的希望藉由教育的方式引導家長跟學校"},{"start":13824.947,"end":13840.099,"text":"這個是我們的希望跟願景但是本席告訴你一個數據所以你必須要應對政策也就俄羅斯人們針對6000多個國中高中的學生來進行問卷調查在2025年裡頭台灣兒少網路安全的調查"},{"start":13840.859,"end":13864.988,"text":"你顯示了青少年對於社群媒體的依賴度是很高的這是目前我們逃離不了的而且必須要去應對的那每天使用的比例高達84.6%有部分的青少年已經陷入沉迷的狀態那調查也發現11.6%的表示自己或同學曾經受到同學朋友的性影像是有11.6%比較於2023年的9.7%它是增加的"},{"start":13869.93,"end":13890.722,"text":"在外流方面自己或者是同學曾經外流個人的性影像的部分是高達8.7比2023年5.2還要增加所以你的數字已經告訴你你必須要有一個對策同時青少年每增加一個年級自己外流性影像的機率是升到19.6%"},{"start":13893.644,"end":13921.995,"text":"那我們也看到青少年如果沉迷在社群上那吸引向外流的機會他是大增的所以次長社群媒體已經成為生活不管是學生大人也好他是不可或缺的一部分我們要如何的能夠讓孩子在正確的學習讓他能夠正康健康的去使用社群媒體這非常的重要所以你們的應對機制要怎麼去做呢"},{"start":13922.495,"end":13950.956,"text":"我們還是要跟家長溝通還有引導我們也給家長一些指導一些手工具包是希望市長目前你所做的答案出來是不斷地在負面的這個數字增加所以本席要請你還要去研議因為這個關係到整個家庭的關係以及親子的管教方面都是息息相關尤其本席最注重的"},{"start":13951.596,"end":13980.382,"text":"青少年兒童的心理問題這是非常的重要所以在這樣的情況下你也認定這個議題我們必須要去嚴厲應對那你把你嚴厲的方向給本席我再給你一個數字給你我們看到深層式的AI進入到青少年的日常生活58.4%的青少年每週至少使用一次20.9%是每一天都會使用一次那大部分使用都在查資料"},{"start":13981.442,"end":13996.669,"text":"不只是寫報告翻譯資料摘要製作圖卡所以兩個議題本席也說了我們現在看到有12.7%的學生是照抄AI所提供的答案來替代作業"},{"start":13998.61,"end":14021.763,"text":"這個數據告訴我們所以也有28.2%是運用這個方面來用於情緒的一個支持尤其在青少年的使用AI的比例更高所以這個議題是很嚴肅的議題我們必須要好好的去面對但是我們看到在媒體素養的方面會查證AI資訊是否正確的是不到40%"},{"start":14023.204,"end":14051.672,"text":"所以我们除了以前本席跟教育部讨论老师要怎么样培训能够去辨别这个是AI的答案还是孩子的答案你们说刚刚我听到你们的回答是说你们从今年开始开始在培训这个非常的重要非常的重要第二个就是因为你如果是正确的使用AI它是有助于帮助于学习这一点很重要所以"},{"start":14052.712,"end":14078.167,"text":"具體要求要讓我們的教育部呢針對於學生適當的使用數位工具怎麼樣去能夠去對的健康的方向因為唯有如此才能夠增加我們的人才的一個競爭力所以目前的數字告訴你是不及格的那你要怎麼樣協助這些孩子協助國人能夠有正確的使用AI的這個方式"},{"start":14079.946,"end":14092.816,"text":"您說呢 持續努力持續努力 你持續努力之餘 你要去應對現在的樣態 提出方案好不好 提出方案給本席謝謝楊瓊英委員質詢 官員請回座接下來請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":14108.888,"end":14120.948,"text":"好謝謝我們主席陳昭偉我這邊請教育部的次長劉次長和這個速發部今天是司長是嗎對不起主秘抱歉主秘謝謝"},{"start":14126.766,"end":14152.734,"text":"好 謝謝今天我們來針對防範不當AI的生成的兒少的內容如何來加強數位跟媒體的素養來做一個討論本席今天先從日本發生的一個案例來談這件事情京都的警方日前破獲了一件AI性剝削的案件主要是一個16歲的少年把自己喜歡的同學的照片"},{"start":14153.834,"end":14174.629,"text":"讓網友來製造生成AI製作成一個性化短影音並在那個Discord的社群裡面來散發群組裡面有數千人這個是一個很嚴重的偽造性私密影片然後的一個剝削事件但是最可怕的是加害者竟然是同學"},{"start":14175.049,"end":14188.135,"text":"那他的動機竟然是因為喜歡這個同學喜歡他把人家製造私密影像的這個同學那這個案子有三個狀況本席這邊來凸顯這三個狀況"},{"start":14190.856,"end":14219.759,"text":"第一個就是深層式的AI已經讓未成年人能夠輕易地製造高擬幀的色情影片第二個部分是社群群組像Discord或Line已經成為散佈的場域而且是相對難以追蹤也沒有辦法及時下架的第三個部分是受害者多半不知道自己被性剝削了因為這個影像基本上是偽造的台灣面臨的孩子面臨的這個問題也不會比日本少"},{"start":14220.379,"end":14246.33,"text":"我們各部會在整個校園AI身為性影像剝削有沒有比較完善的跨部會防堵機制就成為如何處理跟解決這樣子事件的關鍵所以本席在這邊指出AI生成的相關犯罪已經是新的犯罪太陽但是現行制度有一些漏洞第一個是平台的責任不明確所以Discord跟Telegram等"},{"start":14246.79,"end":14263.084,"text":"是海外企業那封閉式的群組難以要求下架那第二個部分是AI技術的日新月異那使兒少難以具備足夠因應的科技倫理那也沒有辦法未成年人常常認為這只是開玩笑只是群組"},{"start":14264.065,"end":14288.449,"text":"分享但事實上他已經影響到很多人而且構成了犯罪第三個部分是AI生成的工具也很容易取得那很多的都是免費又免登錄匿名就可以做出來本席想要請教教育部跟速發部那我們是不是有完善的跨部會的防堵機制而且是不是夠及時那第二個部分是教育部在校園端是不是有足提供"},{"start":14288.849,"end":14313.761,"text":"足夠的AI使用跟倫理教育的內容我們現行的課綱是不是有讓學生教導學生如何使用生成式AI運用不但有可能會傷害其他人甚至犯罪本席認為教育部應該將AI身為的更多的額外風險納入校園的性平教育或數位素養的內容是不是請次長這邊來先做一個回應"},{"start":14314.329,"end":14337.369,"text":"好是的謝謝委員的關切首先這個涉及的這件事情那如果校園的任何一個人包括學生碰到這件事情如果反映到教育部我們會轉請衛福部的信引因所以又轉來轉去本席剛才一直強調一個概念就是這個即時性我們會立刻請衛福部的信引向"},{"start":14338.767,"end":14358.246,"text":"處理中心去處理去要求他們下架我們校方也會馬上進行學生的輔導那至於養成教育這個一定是老師要在數位在媒體那本席要問的是說教育部你們有沒有在這個部分更強力的讓數位素養跟"},{"start":14359.346,"end":14387.794,"text":"這個科技倫理把它放置在你們教學各項的教學內容上而且能夠因應現在即時性的科技的演算速力跟速度有 我們所有老師都有受到我們的數位學習的一個真能的基本款都已經上完課現在我們都鼓勵老師在做真能可能速度要再快一點因為我們要追上AI的速度會增加生成性AI對教學的影響跟"},{"start":14388.174,"end":14409.625,"text":"是不是那速度真的要快一點好不好然後目前本席這邊來請教一下速發部那麼平台演算法跟加速擴散AI內容的這個部分你們的監理機制那速發部我們是不是有研擬這個修法的方向可以參照歐盟DSA要求大型平台也負起社群內監管的一定責任"},{"start":14410.245,"end":14435.82,"text":"那例如說那個平台是不是該揭露未成年使用的風險評估來建立違法影像快速下架快速下架的一個程序因為快速一點那受害者可以減少在這裡面被他也完全都沒這等於是被別人這樣子加害他也不知道的這個狀況那是不是可以簡單說明你們目前政策法規沿你的方向"},{"start":14438.026,"end":14466.092,"text":"就是有关这个内容的部分可能NCC可以来回答不过就是针对现在AI基本法正在讨论就是有送到立法院这边来我们会提醒相关的AI的风险然后会跟跨部会一起来合作相关的作用法怎么样规范这些AI的运用的时候的课题那当然比较直接的就是比如说我们针对游戏有相关的分类相关的APP它会分不同的级别那至于游戏的APP之外还有没有什么样的"},{"start":14466.932,"end":14496.457,"text":"APP是需要被分級管理的這個部分我們也會跟衛福部然後跟教育部一起來共同討論這樣子謝謝竹蜜這邊的一個回應那本席這邊就是面對政策法規那你們在這個過程內其實也要去注意到你們說那個跨部會等到我們跨部會真的跨起來的時候可能時間上都有點來不及那剛才你的回應也有一些內容上沒有辦法那麼縝密的那是不是可以在會後提供相關的書面報告給本席那也盡快那本席還是那個"},{"start":14497.457,"end":14519.361,"text":"要提醒因為數位時代那個速度很多時候都是來不及的所以被害者常常在無形間就被加害者來侵犯那這個部分其實是刻不容緩的所以在內容過程中當你們要所謂跨部會的那個即時性應該要成為主要考量的一個核心關鍵謝謝謝謝林倩琦委員質詢關羽請回座"},{"start":14526.263,"end":14540.255,"text":"接下来请林月琴委员咨询主席麻烦教育部的刘次长跟抒发部的胡主密请刘次长跟胡主委"},{"start":14546.747,"end":14569.043,"text":"市長早市長你知道今天是世界兒童人權日嗎可是諷刺的是昨天有在網路上的公益網紅竟然跑到學校在未成年人同意的情況下開直播請問一下次長你不覺得很好笑嗎為我們竟然在兒童人權日的前一天"},{"start":14569.663,"end":14581.735,"text":"發生這樣的事情校園是可以這樣子被所謂的網紅開直播賺流量的嗎連一個網紅都不知道這樣的行為是犯法的話一般人知道會知道嗎會不會有更多人模仿"},{"start":14584.696,"end":14603.022,"text":"針對這件事情是不是請教育部一個月內提供給我報告告訴我怎麼讓這樣的事情不再發生因為我覺得這蠻嚴重的等到有人投訴校長才出面做制止可是孩子已經上了直播台被訪問了總共有兩個孩子"},{"start":14603.842,"end":14624.557,"text":"怎麼會一個魔術師竟然可以夾帶閒雜人等進入到學校裡面去那就要麻煩教育部針對於台中市的學校能夠去做處理接著要問的是就是校園霸凌的網路延伸的問題如果霸凌行為發生在校園主管"},{"start":14625.577,"end":14640.269,"text":"機關自然是教育部可是當霸凌影像被上傳到網路上的時候我們的兒少全法第69條沒有本來就明白的規範網路上足以辨識孩子的身份跟"},{"start":14641.229,"end":14658.38,"text":"侵害其人格的資訊主管機關必須依虛實對應原則來負責通報如果講虛實對應的話那就還是是在教育部來請求下架跟後續處理所以請問市長只要網路上有足以辨識受害學生的霸凌照片或"},{"start":14658.9,"end":14685.878,"text":"影片依照現行規定是不是教育部應該負起責任是的我們會包括剛才您提學群台中的事情那個我們都會列為校案通報是那必須有一個通報然後再加上這個如果任何的影音是違反了兒少法的規定那市長在我上到這個諮詢台的前一刻我都還看到就是說為什麼此時此刻網路上依然可以輕易看到校園霸凌影片"},{"start":14687.379,"end":14700.162,"text":"那除了通報機制以外有沒有主動監測甚至目前教育部在網路霸凌的影像的通報下架監測追蹤這四個程序到底有沒有制度有沒有SOP有沒有執行"},{"start":14700.97,"end":14721.77,"text":"我們目前那時候必須要有人通報結局之後我們還是要送到IWIN去審核然後審核之後他們會要求下架如果真的也不能下架我們教育部才會有時候如果你講說要送IWIN我想問要多少天時間兩天嗎 三天嗎到底你們現在控制的時間到底多久的"},{"start":14723.772,"end":14743.902,"text":"應該很快跟委員報告其實艾運的處理速度是蠻快的只要很明確的網速可是這時候就有可能事實上是下載然後留存在然後再轉傳到時候又再另外一次的對這個耳哨去做霸凌所以這樣我覺得還是要去主動去了解到這個狀況來 謝謝我們的教育部接下來主"},{"start":14749.025,"end":14763.476,"text":"主B這邊你平常有在用社群軟體嗎有在用翠嗎為什麼這樣子問呢因為上次我總質詢的時候問院長而是到網路安全到底誰負責院長回答事實上是速發部要負起責任"},{"start":14764.517,"end":14781.006,"text":"那可是作為 如果既然這樣子作為社群平台的主管機關的話應該很了解大眾在用什麼樣子的一個平台那我們就要來問的是我自己也有用催可是在我使用催之後呢那我就發現催往往"},{"start":14782.106,"end":14802.989,"text":"會是訊息來源最新的地方有什麼影片 相片都會一手資訊都在粹裡面甚至在熱門影片下還是有看到很多記者來問說可不可以來使用你的影片那顯示粹的那個普及性可是我前陣子在粹上面接獲陳情是說有隨機砍小孩的影片在事發當天不斷的被分享"},{"start":14803.51,"end":14813.268,"text":"那直到今天早上我打開推都還是找到這個無碼砍人的影片而且事實上是小孩被傷害的影片請問一下你們知道嗎 有掌握嗎"},{"start":14816.777,"end":14837.898,"text":"這個內容的部分那個NCC那你們怎麼處理呢如果剛剛那個講的iWi的平台那個部分是現在大家都會把相關的資料訊息往那邊去檢舉然後那邊就會去處理啦可是如果都要有人檢舉的話那影片是不是就會像這則一直到現在還是留存在因為大家看了五感"},{"start":14838.939,"end":14862.887,"text":"否則就是我們的民眾都一直覺得反正砍小孩的影片反正就一直在讓大家可以去觀閱那我覺得這是否恰當當然是不恰當的所以我覺得速發部是不是應該要來做這個如果你們事實上是平台的主管機關那我覺得是不是應該要主動來協助各部會去即時對應之後去處理這件事情才不會讓"},{"start":14864.327,"end":14886.614,"text":"孩子受到傷害的影片還目前到現在還有更重要的是是不是也可以要求平台的自律原則所以請抒發部這部分可以進步趕快來做處理這個平台的管理抒發部會跟相關的主管部會所以請一個月內可不可以提供就是你們怎麼去做處理這件事情提供報告"},{"start":14888.274,"end":14912.027,"text":"會服務NCC一起來這樣子謝謝月琴委員質詢我這邊要跟主命說一下其實月琴委員質詢跟倩琪委員質詢他們有提到當有不當影片侵害到額上的權益的時候我們有沒有快速將影片下架的這個機制我們要如何做到更好更快來保護我們受到傷害的孩子我想這個是剛才一直提到但是你沒有正面回答的"},{"start":14912.307,"end":14926.92,"text":"那我也希望說這個部分我們不管是家長不管是我們關心孩子的各民眾都非常的擔憂我也希望說你們針對這個部分你們有更精進的做法然後這個報告你就要交給我們月勤委員還有倩琪委員好 謝謝"},{"start":14931.178,"end":14952.669,"text":"接下來請黃婕委員質詢黃婕 黃婕委員不在接下來請鄭天才委員質詢鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請邱志偉委員質詢邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在"},{"start":14953.149,"end":14974.248,"text":"请陈冠廷委员质询陈冠廷陈冠廷委员不在请林楚英委员质询林楚英林楚英委员不在请郑振前委员质询郑振前郑振前委员不在请李坤成委员质询李坤成李坤成委员不在"},{"start":14975.129,"end":14989.282,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有吳佩奕委員 林楚英委員黃婕委員 李昆城委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":14990.163,"end":15005.492,"text":"委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"165730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9132324b0a4a0a3939af94607883e6102ae8603fab3ff6def2743ecd620c67a78185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:44:49 - 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教育部政事請劉次長"},{"start":20.995,"end":45.624,"text":"好 次長好今天我們討論這個議題是非常重要都希望說兒少有一個安全的環境來使用當然也必須要去避免到過度的管制而且要避免到用禁止來去代替教育所以今天的內容是在於說不當的內容那因此就首先要問的是教育部這一部分如何去判定不當的內容"},{"start":46.624,"end":55.503,"text":"那這個目前教育部是不是在管理內容啊是不是用學校裡面的iWIN跟不當資訊系統來做防護 是不是"},{"start":57.004,"end":75.837,"text":"首先分開兩個再強調如果是APPAPP的話在我們學術網路上是不能裝置抖音跟小紅書的因為它是大陸製的轉印體的對你們是用它的平台或是它的APP對不對APP那是不能裝的這清楚了我現在說的是不當內容如果不當內容的網站"},{"start":78.058,"end":101.814,"text":"的內容透過iWIN或透過iWIN的機制我們會那剛才有講可是內在學術網路當中出現的嘛對不對在學校在學校裡面的話他剛才已經有提到的如果他自己有這些的使用的網路他根本就不要受到這個影響那我們繼續往下看今天最重要的事要談到的是不當那這個不當的標準是什麼我們看到你在說的有"},{"start":102.634,"end":115.871,"text":"包括色情、暴力、恐怖、血腥、危險的內容跟有害行為的部分呢通通都是要做進行那特別你們還做了一個蒐集到黑名單嘛 對吧那這個黑名單當中呢 目前有哪些名單啊"},{"start":120.294,"end":133.927,"text":"跟會員報告 這個黑名單其實是非常多不只是我們教育部主動發現如果一般的民眾 老師 學生有做這樣的通報對 很好 你這位名單但是 重要的是如果有被黑名單的話是不是要有經過一個機制"},{"start":135.228,"end":156.742,"text":"這才是重點的 透過iWIN但是iWIN的標準是什麼 我們繼續往下看這邊裡面呢 我說如果一部短影片當中我等一下繼續問到它裡面的內容如果一個短影片裡面有持槍射擊伴隨著不雅詞彙還有這算不算不當內容 我們就來看一看這是這些你們的標準在這裡可是因為很含糊 其實沒有辦法去做我們現在看它裡面的內容"},{"start":157.807,"end":161.048,"text":"好 这次我们继续再往下看这个地方涉及到的枪支操作跟射击爆裂就次长你来看这是不是属于不当的内容"},{"start":187.415,"end":211.858,"text":"跟委員報告事實上任何的經過檢舉的網址或網站透過iWIN它會有一個審查機制審查機制那還有情節的重大輕重所以你們就等一下跟他講每天有三千萬隻在網路平台上面你們要花多少的能量去做這些事情這就是效率的問題你們針對的目標事實上都不明的問題我們繼續再往下看一個很好笑的"},{"start":213.86,"end":232.201,"text":"你拿大槍我拿小槍所以這樣的話算你陣亡好 你就先下去唉唷 這樣子囉蛤 原來小手槍還可以這樣子用喔這是人們很喜歡看的小孩子都很喜歡看欸 我拿小槍 你們拿大槍你們陣亡媽啦 這麼遠算喔不要跟他計較他也只是個孩子喔喔"},{"start":236.396,"end":247.972,"text":"你們幹嘛我拿小槍我最大你們拿大槍你看這樣的行為我們繼續往下看就停一下這算不算不當的內容"},{"start":251.533,"end":279.819,"text":"無法進來你現在馬上回答不出來這其實就是你看剛剛對我那個涉及的情況事實上都還會造成受傷的情形我們繼續看那到底誰來判定呢教育部剛剛你說IWIN對不對IWIN這些部分還有AI防不勝防3000萬支一天耶在所有的這樣的平台當中我們繼續往下看另外我們看到的是教育部長在10月份的時候有被立委問到他說呢抖音這些有這種不當的訊息傳播"},{"start":280.999,"end":291.791,"text":"也有不當的性別障礙 但是最重要是有許多跟學習比較無關的內容也會從這邊拿去做相關的設計但請問一下 連學習無關也要當作是一個要不就禁的內容嗎"},{"start":293.852,"end":311.664,"text":"這是部的立場還是個人部長的立場我想委員部長講的是針對我們教育部的學術網路他那部分對一般的網站並沒有對所以你剛才呈現到教育部只能在學校裡面的使用用Tenet來去進行影響對不對"},{"start":313.425,"end":336.266,"text":"排除掉 但是在一般的人們當中都沒有嘛這就是非常重要的問題 你們就是防不勝防一直做了無效的動作啊 可是等一下當然最重要就是在媒體素養的部分啦 我就跟大家講 包括 等一下想剛剛在說學校什麼 那家長層面你們有數位工具包那就讓下載去進行 那請問推廣的成效如何 下載數如何 使用率又怎麼樣現在有評估了嗎"},{"start":338.206,"end":349.712,"text":"那個我們 我剛才有看到一個數據我們數回包一天有一萬多看一下一天有一萬多啊 這麼熱門嗎這數據要經過認證的喔時間要不要暫停一下"},{"start":353.28,"end":369.973,"text":"現在目前我累積的喔來了那個是這樣那個數位包上面到6月份到現在已經有15000人瀏覽了15000人然後我們也在有沒有下載瀏覽跟下載是一回事吧你沒有下載你怎麼去處理啊"},{"start":370.673,"end":386.851,"text":"不好意思委員我補充一下我們的數位工具包它是一個操作手冊那就是提供家長有那個iPhone的手機或是其他Android的手機怎麼用手機有的那一種家長防護親子帳號的功能去做這樣的一個"},{"start":387.452,"end":403.104,"text":"但是你沒有辦法 你是他有瀏覽但是沒有辦法認定說他的使用率會如何對不對你們有做後面的後續嗎是 委員這方面我們會盡力去好 這就涉及到你們的預算了你們有沒有效果 事實上這部分是應該要打大找舌扣的當然這個分期的部分 請一下速發部的主秘"},{"start":411.621,"end":422.958,"text":"是 委員好好 請問一下你們有提到說今年年底的時候要提出建立的這個APP的分級制度有這個危害兒少的疑慮的部分那請問現在的進度如何"},{"start":427.867,"end":445.409,"text":"這個APP的分級制度如果是我們部長之前有提到的那我們就會在年底以前就把這個東西妳好像很不熟悉不是嗎我們現在是有在盤點這個相關遊戲的年底現在不到一個半月了耶有有有那我們現在其實主要是透過兩種方式啦一個是"},{"start":446.99,"end":470.645,"text":"危害這個國安的部分來處理另外是遊戲分級的主要的部分來處理這樣子主要是從這兩個面上那你們分級會大概分成幾類就分成這兩類嗎大概是好 這一部分應該時間到了所以這邊你們應該其實應該很快要有這個報告出現給北本席那當然就是剛才那三個部分的話這三支我現在只放兩片而已啦請問這算不算不當內容"},{"start":472.6,"end":492.483,"text":"這個要有專業的判斷對就是因為今天是不當內容就是可以都可以去做沒有人判斷的沒有人做一個標準判斷的話就形成會過度的去限制尤其是剛才所說的一個創意的這個內容上面其實我剛才還問一下教育部或是現在問一下速發部這邊如果是對學習有害的部分像"},{"start":493.064,"end":513.055,"text":"我們在看到的K-POP他們這種很多創意的那種他跟學可能學習無關這部分可能都被禁掉啦所以請兩個部說三個部會通通要最最他是不是哪些是真正叫不當內容必須要提出來真正的一個標準出來這部分進度哪裡編在哪個項目我們繼續往下看這不剛才說的每天有三千部的"},{"start":514.675,"end":543.064,"text":"3000萬支的影印在這裡請教育部跟速發部這邊都要清楚怎麼去編啊怎麼去管啊 實在是沒有效的啊那我們繼續再往下看所以請教育部跟速發部要提供的這個書面報告給本席明確的定義跟清楚的規劃速發部這邊可以嗎可以啊好 在今年年底之前有新的APP的情形執行那我們再繼續再往下看的是說屬於教育部的次長請由次長到這邊來謝謝 謝謝速發部的主秘"},{"start":545.069,"end":557.27,"text":"很重要的 剛才所提到的講到了媒體素養 科技資訊等等這跟數位素養都是一樣的嗎定義是一樣的嗎 不一樣吧那你可以說出來一個嗎科技素養跟媒體素養的差異性"},{"start":559.462,"end":587.874,"text":"科技素養是代表全面性的科技資訊素養屬於數位學習跟AI那一部分那媒體素養我是資訊素養那媒體素養讓師生多了解還有家長多了解所謂的是變成什麼是假訊息還有一些對所以如果事實上我問一個非常重要的問題在我們108課當當中有一個科技資訊媒體素養"},{"start":589.595,"end":615.876,"text":"這裡面當中其實你看所說的科技還包括的是數位這些部分最重要其實就是在媒體的素養就是它的試讀能力對不對但是你們在編預算的時候我們往下看這邊已經講到的師大的林玉鵬教授說導致的因為定義不清楚這是媒體的素養這部分不清楚而且形成了這樣很多的額外的負擔容不上各個教育平台是分散的更重要的是因為它定位不明"},{"start":616.576,"end":640.023,"text":"你們剛才說的四個 其實媒體只有十七種 可是最重要是在媒體的部分教育現場是無所適從啊 還更重要的事物看到了把他的預算拿出來看的時候啊就以你們這麼多頁的這個部的一百一十五年就是我們等一下就要審的部分就可以看到用媒體素養下去看的時候才零欸以這個預算才零欸 可是事實上你們可能編在三部在各地方 那請問一下一一五年到底能編的多少"},{"start":644.124,"end":664.753,"text":"跟委員報告我們媒體素養部分在15年化是將近4千萬的部分在做推動那是有個專門的地方呈現出來嗎不好意思因為它這個經費的話是在各個市處的部分這部分確實要請要做報告出來不然你們預算的時候這是看不到你又是剛剛您說的這麼重要的媒體素養才是適度能力才是重要的嘛"},{"start":665.313,"end":686.873,"text":"好 这部分我们继续往下看的是如果这边的把它教育部一定要注意到媒体素养那个相关这个独立的项目必须要把它独立出来特别是你要做个加注不然是没办法去认识出来的那这边呢我们就看到的是现在可能真的看到的是媒体素养已经变成一个附属的概念包括是怎么样的一个成效测证时数跟学习减和指标"},{"start":687.814,"end":702.36,"text":"應該要提出來 是在預算的時候一定要做出來一定要補上來 現在有沒有這樣的一個這些時數跟課程減核指標我們是應該都有 我們都有都有相關的課程那你學期減核指標有嗎"},{"start":708.068,"end":726.534,"text":"沒辦法進行所以就是沒有嘛既然的媒體素養這麼大 識別這麼重要才是最後把關的部分應該把這邊的檢核指標呈現出來不然是沒有效的包括現在所講的 識讀才是重要的關鍵那我們最後希望是說包括了這些課程當中這個去年100 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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1619.008,"end":1625.252,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在正式開會請進行報告事項請宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1635.731,"end":1660.26,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員 經濟部部長 數位發展部首長國家科學及技術委員會首長 教育部首長及勞動部首長就攸關台灣未來的競爭力 支持AI時代 台灣如何贏得新人才戰進行報告並備質詢 宣導完畢好 我們現在介紹現場官員以及我們的委員賴世鮑委員"},{"start":1662.891,"end":1690.483,"text":"謝謝我們國發會主委葉主委 謝謝接下來國家發展基金管委會的執行秘書 汪執行秘書 謝謝經濟部工部長 謝謝書發部侯正志 謝謝接下來國家科學及技術委員會書務主委 謝謝教育部朱長士"},{"start":1693.494,"end":1716.241,"text":"謝謝 勞動部洪部長謝謝好 那麼我們本日議程排定有關台灣未來的競爭力那指使AI時代台灣如何贏得新人才戰進行報告並被質詢那首先我們請國發會主委葉主委做報告 謝謝"},{"start":1724.066,"end":1747.379,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請本會列席就攸關台灣未來的競爭力 支持AI時代台灣如何贏得新人才戰 進行報告以下緊究部分重點進行口頭報告 敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1748.439,"end":1776.909,"text":"那依據速發部調查2025到2027年我國AI應用服務業產業專業人才需求平均每年增加約3000到4000人那對勞動市場帶來挑戰與機會為因應AI轉型過程中勞動市場結構的變化政府積極推動AI相關培育及培訓措施那致力於"},{"start":1778.362,"end":1792.972,"text":"致力於提升AI產業人才量能協助企業人才佈局促使勞動市場順利轉型那AI新十大建設的數位基"},{"start":1794.655,"end":1820.686,"text":"数位基盘是实现AI在各行各业落地的坚实后盾其中针对AI人才行政团队将透过培育新世代人才还有培训产业实作人才及延揽专业人士三大资助建构从基础AI素养到高阶创新应用的全方位人才发展策略实现我国AI人才生命链的循环共融"},{"start":1821.586,"end":1838.619,"text":"教育部也在積極的推動AI教育向下扎根從國小階段起強化師資AI的融入教學能力導入AI學習夥伴並辦理相關競賽高中階段則持續推廣AI多元選修課程與"},{"start":1839.46,"end":1854.629,"text":"科技創新應用大專院校階段則透過多元學習路徑培育學生成為具備跨域的人才教育部也透過與地方政府的合作然後與終身學習機構一起辦理AI的學習"},{"start":1858.371,"end":1886.658,"text":"那希望能够迈向全民终身学习的AI新时代那在经济部也陆续的在推动中小企业服务业还有制造业等AI的应用以及AI新秀AI市产线的计划那书发部也发布了AI产业人才指引认定指引以公司协力促成民间机构办理AI技术技能认定与培训那劳动部也协助企业员工及失业者培训"},{"start":1888.338,"end":1906.332,"text":"產業所需的數位技能本會參考新加坡 日本 英國的做法推動了外國專業人才延攬及僱傭法的修正全面優化國際人才工作 居留以及社會保障"},{"start":1907.593,"end":1930.731,"text":"为了让国际人才进得来留得住并且可以快速适应我国生活本会议也成立了Talent Taiwan国际人才服务及延揽中心提供了一站式的来台申请程序及后续在台的服务最后面对全球AI的浪潮政府将持续投入资源强化教育与产业的链接"},{"start":1931.571,"end":1956.198,"text":"那积极育成AI人才成为产业创新及升级注入长远的动能那同时推动AI融入日常生活工作让智慧科技普及普惠全民仍能具备AI运用那以上报告尽情只这样谢谢好谢谢谢谢主委来接下来我们请经济部工部长请做报告谢谢"},{"start":1961.645,"end":1990.277,"text":"主席各位委員大家好首先感謝貴委員會讓本部有機會就AI時代台灣如何贏得新人才戰的議題進行經濟部推動事項的專案報告請各位委員不吝指教以下僅就經濟部針對人才培訓佈局的策略向各委員來做一些說明首先在國內推動產業人才培訓的部分對於AI的初學者"},{"start":1991.176,"end":2018.156,"text":"本部中企署有针对中小企业网络大学校以及产发署的AI线上学习平台来提供针对在职的员工来讲的话包括我们的产发署还有商发署还有中企署还有技术师都有不同的计划在推动AI的人才培养第二大项有关于延览国际专业人才的部分"},{"start":2019.009,"end":2030.235,"text":"经济部有Contact Taiwan另外也有透过来台设立研发中心吸引高阶的人才来台湾另外我们也跟教育部配合"},{"start":2030.731,"end":2053.545,"text":"推动新形态的这个专班的一些相关计划那第三个是建立有关于产业人才鉴定的基础所谓的IPaaS那目前IPaaS有六大领域19项的人才的鉴定那目前来讲的话已经有超过4万个人取得这个证照那有关于AI经济部"},{"start":2054.161,"end":2070.759,"text":"人才的这个阶段性成果简要的跟各位说明一下有关于整体的培训规模到11月17号来讲基金部透过多元的AI培训的课程已经累积大概参与的人数大概有10万名那"},{"start":2071.687,"end":2100.368,"text":"第二个就是说有关于透过iPath产业人才的鉴定的部分那iPath的这个AI应用的规划是在114年首次的开办四个提示总共吸引了1.4万人来考那已经通过检定的大概有6500位合格的AI的专业人才那第四项我们也设置了线上的学习平台总共有170门线上课程提供"},{"start":2101.448,"end":2128.903,"text":"這個學習最後AI是驅動整個新一輪產業革命的關鍵引擎中小企業普遍面臨資源有限技術門檻高人才不足的挑戰AI專業人才已經成為產業升級的關鍵因素本部將持續發揮跨部位人才鏈結以及資源串聯的中效協助中小企業跨越這個轉型的門檻以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2132.95,"end":2157.063,"text":"好 我們謝謝經濟部部長 工部長那麼有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告我們也請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答委員詢答前我們依照慣例主席來做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本委員會6分鐘必要時間加2分非本委員會5分鐘上午10點半"},{"start":2157.563,"end":2182.02,"text":"截止發言登記那首先我們請第一位陳婷菲委員請做詢答陳婷菲委員謝謝主席我們請國防會主委我們請國防會主委那個主席等一下我們的那個PowerPoint還沒對"},{"start":2226.948,"end":2226.968,"text":"好"},{"start":2306.482,"end":2316.049,"text":"好 我們現在請資訊事務人員來做協助再測試看看早上是有測試過然後現在再請醫事組人員來處理"},{"start":2325.066,"end":2346.656,"text":"要測試 好 OK好 我們現在請陳婷菲委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 謝謝國發會主委我想我現在希望跟你討論的就是我們一直在推動的大南方新矽谷計畫這也是我們在AI十大建設推動範圍一個很重要在我們整個區塊鏈"},{"start":2348.513,"end":2372.227,"text":"一个结合那我们这大南方新矽谷计划里面包含了六大分享计划对不对有我们的沙伦人工智慧产业专区全区管理AI运算资料中心建置沙伦智慧健康产业大楼建置近邻绿能示范场域AI创新应用及治安剂"},{"start":2372.947,"end":2395.758,"text":"智慧科技专区智慧雨林产业创生这几个部分是我们这六大分项的一个计划那我们现在是用大南方新矽谷推动委员会这样的方式在跨部会召开协调对不对那这个部分未来是不是会慢慢导入我们科学园区的管理模式"},{"start":2397.53,"end":2416.698,"text":"在特定的一些科學園區的規劃的話我們是會往那個方向走的那這個部分我想問我們所有的先期規劃已經準備好了嗎這個部分我們那個先期規劃的好了嗎"},{"start":2418.035,"end":2431.652,"text":"对对对都好了吗这几个计划我们看到沙伦人工智慧产业专区先行规划计划是国科卫经济部114年度是编列3.62亿对不对"},{"start":2433.137,"end":2455.198,"text":"AI運算資料中心兼職國科會是編列1.8億淨零綠能示範場域經濟部是編列3億智慧雨林產業創生經濟部國科會教育部抒發部是編列3.69億好 那我們要問這些現在進行的速度跟進度如何"},{"start":2458.263,"end":2481.932,"text":"這是114年喔對 這個部分的話因為整個公務預算有一點delay啦是對 那有一點點落後但我們現在其實落後多少落後的話 個別的細項我沒有辦法跟委員報告但我們是經由公共建設這個部分讓我們針對每一個部會有在今天的國防委員會這是公建計畫嗎"},{"start":2483.132,"end":2511.024,"text":"有些是用公建计划有些是本预算对不对公建计划本预算然后相交去协助Support这个大南方新矽谷计划对但是我们到底整个进度控管如何我们还没办法掌握细部细部我是不是会后再给那个委员治疗因为这个每一个都是还蛮细部的一个治疗主委那我要问现在有delay了"},{"start":2511.912,"end":2540.609,"text":"那请问115年呢我们有在2026呢我们有请各部会尽赶快把那个落后的部分赶快补上来没有什么叫尽快补上对对对因为我们今天刚好何谓尽快补上我们现在已经要省明年度的预算对因为我们要省明年度预算就算它还没送进来可是我们必须说的这些计划是一年一年"},{"start":2541.991,"end":2568.547,"text":"不斷地堆成不斷地延續那我要問我們今年都delay了那明年怎麼辦那在下一年度怎麼辦根據今天早上因為我們今天早上國家發展委員會的委員會剛好有開會那我們也有針對那個公建預算落後的問題然後請對還有那個大南方新矽谷這個計畫部分對對也有做一些檢討主委麻煩了"},{"start":2569.847,"end":2597.933,"text":"一个资料给我们到底现在落后多少我们怎么去补足这个落后下一个年度又要怎么办因为这是大计划你只要第一阶段第一年delay了后面就会一直delay下去可能我们这个大南方新矽谷就会造成人民没有办法看到我们的期待跟未来这对于我们台南很重要"},{"start":2598.684,"end":2619.34,"text":"对所以委员关心的这个部分其实我们在今天早上那委员会就有特别提出来就是说请各部会就公建计划还有那个像比如说六大生活区域以及大南方信息股这个部分的话要进度上面要赶快你知道这总经费你们原本预定是315亿左右当然这是分了好几年"},{"start":2620.205,"end":2648.232,"text":"所以你在第一年没有执行第二年再执行又会往后所以你知道吗我们期待的因为在台南我们沙伦我们除了是人工智慧是绿能我们现在也把AI整个运算把它加进来对这也牵扯到我们人力的问题人才的问题好那我要再强调一点去年公务预算有遭到大幅的删减"},{"start":2649.318,"end":2654.971,"text":"在大南方興溪谷計畫那這個部分會受到影響嗎我們要如何因應"},{"start":2656.687,"end":2684.701,"text":"这个部分假如是涉及到人事这个部分的话应该是没问题啦没有就整个对整个的话比较delay比较多的应该是所谓那个计划型期没错它在整个公务预算我刚刚已经讲了它就两个部分一个是公务预算一个是公建预算所以我们如果公务预算有被删掉了那你今天就看到已经明显delay了那这个要怎么补足"},{"start":2685.501,"end":2706.193,"text":"我想你的報告要盡快給我因為這個對台南的發展太為重要了因為我們希望能夠透過所有整個大南方矽谷計畫的一個延展性看到我們台南在科技的亮跟光因為我們有"},{"start":2707.254,"end":2722.974,"text":"台积电的南科这个已经是我们的护国神山我们如果可以加进我们的绿能我们的演算中心我们的AI我相信台南在整个科技的发展"},{"start":2723.494,"end":2740.991,"text":"还有AI的发展又会往外跳脱很大的一块而且它的幅度会吃高发展能量会非常的大所以主委再拜托而且针对串联大南方各园区我们要纳入九大配套措施"},{"start":2741.832,"end":2761.312,"text":"供水规划 供电规划交通运输物路网产业人口居住员工子女教育还有医疗资源近邻转型人力及人才培育文化设施所以这个部分各单位都准备好了吗都有入学兵进去了吗"},{"start":2763.074,"end":2778.972,"text":"這個部分我們會跟那個國科會這邊去討論一些內部事項然後另外一個就是說我們從明年開始每一個月我們會追蹤那一個公建的計畫他那個進度那國科會有掌握所有的資訊嗎有嗎這個部分有嗎"},{"start":2784.212,"end":2802.146,"text":"有掌握所有的資訊嗎是 跟委員報告針對這個園區的發展的部分國科會有掌握進度而且 你的掌握你是要把周邊周邊我們人民的這些土地納入到一起副都心的整體規劃不是只有你而已是"},{"start":2803.507,"end":2822.916,"text":"你不能說你今天做好之後 把人放在旁邊相關的園區發展對於周邊的考量我們會一併納入考量那這個部分你們計畫在哪裡再拜託整個完整性因為這九大配套太重要了而且你要配合台南市政府的都市計畫"},{"start":2824.822,"end":2850.17,"text":"如果你的方向沒有出來市政府沒有辦法配合會的 我們會一起整體來考量好 這個部分因為其實在台南我們已經開了很多次會議那這個部分的動向跟它的進度跟它的速度 效率我們要看到是好 再拜託 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請邱議員委員請做詢答"},{"start":2866.67,"end":2894.618,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下經濟部跟國科會好 請兩位主委好部長好這個國科會今天是副主委嘛是部長 這個我們今天主席排定的議程是要討論AI時代到底台灣如何贏得人才戰"},{"start":2895.851,"end":2921.137,"text":"但我今天要跟您討論在討論人才戰之前在討論人才戰之前部長我想要讓您看一下紅色資本已經入侵台灣直接掐住了台灣半導體的物流命脈"},{"start":2923.1,"end":2946.019,"text":"部長這個我不曉得您跟國科會有沒有掌握這件事情在我們的南科跟竹科這兩個園區裡頭唯一的物流業者叫做科學城物流科學城物流現在的經營權掌握在誰的手裡掌握在家裡大榮物流這家公司"},{"start":2946.926,"end":2966.113,"text":"那這一家公司呢現在被發現這一家公司的董事長其實具有中國的政協背景我們很擔心所有園區內的高科技業的機密資料是不是會全都漏"},{"start":2967.864,"end":2988.024,"text":"部長讓你看一下科學城物流公司的這個經營權的轉移時間軸從2011年馬政府的時代我們核准台灣家裡投資去持有家裡大榮過半的股權一直到18年新竹物流去取得科學城物流55%的股權"},{"start":2991.988,"end":3019.118,"text":"2019年新竹物流把科學城物流的股權賣給了嘉里大榮2021年順豐控股收購了香港嘉里物流過半的股權到2023年郭氏集團也就是嘉里控股的董事長郭孔華跟郭惠光分別擔任北京跟上海的政協委員"},{"start":3020.755,"end":3034.674,"text":"這一張關係圖可以很清楚的讓部長跟國科會去了解我剛剛所談到的順豐控股跟家裡控股公司之間到底他們的關係鏈結是什麼"},{"start":3038,"end":3052.969,"text":"順豐控股是中國最大的物流集團它具有中國官方的背景跟中國政府的投資而順豐控股在2021年收購了香港家裡物流過半的股權之後"},{"start":3053.809,"end":3080.328,"text":"形成了一個非常清楚的控制鏈就是順豐控股然後接下來是嘉里控股接下來是KLN然後是嘉里大榮的台灣然後是科學城物流而科學城物流就是我們南科跟竹科唯一的倉儲科學城物流嘉里大榮現在持股佔有科學城物流60%以上的股份"},{"start":3082.814,"end":3110.518,"text":"為什麼說紅色集團入侵部長我讓您看一下郭孔華是家裡控股的董事長2023年開始他擔任北京的政協委員郭惠光也是郭孔華的姊姊2023年擔任上海市的政協委員我今天要提起要問請教兩位到底這個郭氏家族的政協角色"},{"start":3112.113,"end":3134.635,"text":"在我們政府的認定它是否已經就是實質的中資當時我們認為港澳投資台灣是基於一國兩制高度自治的這樣的一個前提之下現在的時空背景已經轉換了2019年開始香港已經完全失去了自治中國全面掌控政治人事法律體制"},{"start":3135.396,"end":3164.09,"text":"也就是說現在的港資是否還是當初我們認定的那個時代的港資如果現在的港資已經不是當時認定的港資那現在的港資是否就等於中資如果是等於中資的話我們的經濟部我們的投審會甚至我們的國科會在對於科學園區的物流倉儲被紅色產業鏈全盤掌控的時候到底政府能做什麼你們會做什麼"},{"start":3164.85,"end":3185.49,"text":"你們有沒有發現這個問題來 部長報告委員因為我們跟中國的關係是兩岸關係條例那跟港澳是港澳條例它是兩個條例不一樣那這是不是港資就視為中資我想這個還要跟陸委會做討論"},{"start":3187.83,"end":3216.925,"text":"那至於您剛才提到家裡大王這件事情事實上我們都有一直在關注那您剛才那個圖表面上看起來他好像是用家裡控股他去控台灣跟台灣跟香港是不一樣的但是是不是有實質控制權這個部分我們現在正在實質的調查這個部長我覺得你這個回答太過軟弱了他當然是有實質的控制權順豐控股都已經直接入主家裡家裡控股公司他掌握他的股權"},{"start":3219.606,"end":3237.179,"text":"如果是你這樣子的邏輯的話那你們過去投審會在處理港資跟中資的問題就不會是這個邏輯囉它不是投資家裡控股它是投資香港家裡表面上它是投資香港家裡它不是投資控股"},{"start":3238.035,"end":3264.649,"text":"家裡控股一樣嘛這個目前上來講的話是有一點不一樣那我問你嘛但是園區如果遇到這個狀況的話這算不算國安層級要去處理的所以我們現在就是說這個還沒有釐清之前包括你們什麼時候可以釐清包括科學園區的物流或是藥品的送這個買賣物流的話我們就不讓他乘坐了"},{"start":3266.038,"end":3268.109,"text":"你什麼時候可以釐清 來 國客會"},{"start":3269.807,"end":3298.44,"text":"跟委員報告 園區的廠商對於相關資訊的外流或者是營業秘密的保護有非常嚴謹的做法那對於物流公司在科學園區的廠商物流公司是一個自由市場那剛剛講的科學層物流是在園區裡面有租地所以對於它的資安的查核我們定期科學園區管理局會針對它的資安是否有外洩的進行查核所以這個部分園區會盡適當的能力來把它做好這一番有關營業秘密保護的事情"},{"start":3298.88,"end":3325.648,"text":"你們講的是後面的查核嘛很多的資訊流通是直接雲端上傳就回到中國嘛他能不能掌握台灣的產能波動能不能掌握台灣的產線壓力跟出貨的節奏能不能掌握原區裡面什麼時間什麼物料往哪邊送給誰送給哪一家廠商如果他能夠掌握這些東西的話那他其實就是掌握台灣半導體的實際駕動率啊他其實就是掌握台灣的這個國防供應鏈的實際的動力啊"},{"start":3328.873,"end":3340.781,"text":"那你告訴我你後面才去做查核他第一時間雲端就送回去啦你們有沒有去注意到這個問題很顯然的沒有嘛我覺得你還是消極的在做這件事情嘛國科會你有沒有做過風險評估有沒有你是後面做查核那你在前端這一個你現在如果發現這個問題你們應該早就發現這個問題了啦有沒有做過國安的風險評估那你的風險評估報告內容是什麼你覺得他沒有具他不具備國安的風險所以還是可以繼續讓這一家公司"},{"start":3358.613,"end":3382.389,"text":"持續的持續的做那如果是這樣子衛福部他們為什麼要立刻停掉衛福部因為涉及到醫材的部分這個由衛福部來處理醫材很重要對半導體的我們這些材料的物流難道不重要但是因為他半導體是台灣的護國神山這些不重要是是這個部分因為整個半導體產業的能夠乘坐物流的公司有非常多"},{"start":3383.109,"end":3401.778,"text":"那所以這一家公司其實所佔有的比例它是不是能夠掌控到所有的資訊其實沒有辦法的整體的包含優比數包含所有的物流公司都可以乘坐園區的廠商主委 副主委你們國科會在掌握AIAI什麼東西都可以做得到是"},{"start":3402.498,"end":3426.589,"text":"物流業者每天在科學園區裡面這樣跑你覺得他掌握不到嗎你覺得他掌握不到嗎他如果把所有的公司串接起來你覺得他掌握不到嗎那你們我覺得政府的這個國安的警訊這個安全的警訊系統似乎失靈耶我是不是能夠請國科會請經濟部包括你們的投審會認真研究一下這件事情一個禮拜內"},{"start":3433.564,"end":3442.278,"text":"一個禮拜內可不可以有一個評估報告出來跟委員報告其實我們一直都有在關注這件事情"},{"start":3444.085,"end":3471.962,"text":"好如果你们有在关注的话可不可以给本席一个你们现在关注的这些进度报告这些安全报告如果是只有说你有在关注就没有回答到委员的议题是啊所以他希望你们一个礼拜将你们演绎的方向再跟委员顺便说好吗你现在有在关注你关注的内容是什么你觉得你现在的对于国安层级的研判是什么安全性的评估是什么包括未来的投审会"},{"start":3473.188,"end":3491.84,"text":"對於港資是否等於中資對於他的整個投資台灣的內容報告安全程度的危害是不是都能夠做一併的報告出來可以嗎 部長我們現在手上有的內容因為一個禮拜我們會整理給委員做"},{"start":3494.912,"end":3503.717,"text":"OK 好 謝謝好 那就陳柔委員所說的一個禮拜將她所提問的議題跟委員來說明清楚謝謝來 接下來陳理事長委員 謝謝接下來我們請楊瓊英召委諮詢"},{"start":3525.99,"end":3527.852,"text":"謝謝主席 楊秀英發言 邀請國發會國發會委員長"},{"start":3537.103,"end":3565.508,"text":"主委早我们政府全力的在推动AI指导但是算力的基础设施背后的能源成本似乎被刻意的来淡化但是据我们媒体报道在5月30号的时候国家高速网路与计算中心的三部超级电脑一年电费要多少主委你注意到这个新闻吗"},{"start":3567.163,"end":3587.294,"text":"主委你在推動AI指導你是很重要的推手你怎麼連媒體在5月30號所報導的這個訊息你都不知道那你怎麼樣能夠去預估呢"},{"start":3588.484,"end":3605.809,"text":"就部件呢本集告诉你据媒体的报道他是说这三部超级电脑一年的电费要破亿元再以台积电的用电来看2023年是230亿度那么预估在2030年的时候要330亿度"},{"start":3608.27,"end":3628.921,"text":"單一個企業幾乎要佔據了消耗了全國11%的電力隨著企業大規模的導入AI的訓練跟運算需求我們的國力 電力 綠電 水資源的缺口也正在擴大甚至出現綠電被大廠買光"},{"start":3635.786,"end":3651.72,"text":"綁了買光的一個壟斷現象但是政府到現在你沒有提出算力能源的評估標準也沒有跨部會的去協調能源的預算所以導致"},{"start":3653.412,"end":3680.934,"text":"這個面向也就是產業盡力努力去衝但是能源不夠用那AI的戰力可能會從國家的戰略變成是能源的黑洞所以本期首先要請教我們政府要全面的推動整個算力作為國家級的一個基礎建設那麼國防會你現在面對面對這樣子的超級電腦"},{"start":3682.515,"end":3695.828,"text":"AI的訓練中心跟先進製程的一個極速拉高電力的需求的情況你認為整個的能源總量的控管你要做怎麼樣的"},{"start":3697.489,"end":3723.369,"text":"预估 评估 布建 请说说跟委员报告就是说其实经济部在对于中长期的用电已经有把这个部分纳入考量那所以就是说预估来讲的话未来十年纳入考量你连我们国家最重要的国家高速网路与计算中心的三倍超过这个三部超级电脑一年要增加多少你知道要增加多少吗"},{"start":3726.089,"end":3748.795,"text":"這個經濟部的資料裡面他有考慮他們預估每一年大概會增加1.7%的用電的成長本期告訴國發會主委既然你的主責要推動AI指導你要怎麼樣去提出明確的能源總量管控以及配套你們會不會提出啊"},{"start":3749.606,"end":3776.492,"text":"這個部分我們會跟經濟部跟國科你什麼時候要提出我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候請告訴我們因為產業一直在前面衝但是他很害怕到底我的電力夠不夠算力超級電腦請做說明你們預估什麼時候會提出這個部分我必須要跟經濟部跟你說的很快是什麼時候你告訴我一個時間點"},{"start":3777.532,"end":3797.017,"text":"因為我要跟那個經濟部這邊所以你的頭腦所謂的很快是隨便答一答你沒有時間點嘛 是不是不會是什麼時間點我也沒有辦法給委員很明確因為我必須要跟那個經濟部這邊沒有辦法給本席嘛你也沒有明確的時間點嘛好 那我們請經濟部長來 我們一起"},{"start":3803.899,"end":3823.184,"text":"我们前一段时间本席跟廖院长中心院院长讨论过电要从哪里来而且我们看到2030年是2800亿度2050年是5000亿度而且廖院长说还不止大概是2050年大概6000亿度"},{"start":3825.625,"end":3840.434,"text":"但是他認為這個數字是沒有加入剛剛本席跟國防會主委在討論的算力以及超級電腦的這個部分喔是沒有喔所以本席也請問了廖院長你支不支持"},{"start":3841.094,"end":3870.309,"text":"核二核三重启的这个立场他是支持的他明确的说支持而且他说台湾不止台湾的技术还有国际的技术我们是有能力的这是廖院长在教育委员会的时候回答本席的议题因为我们知道加入了算力加入了这个超级电脑我们的电力务必跟原先的一个规划是不一样的它是增加的"},{"start":3870.629,"end":3886.099,"text":"它是增加的所以為了不讓我們的產業在前面衝怕能源這些電力是不夠的所以本席來請教請教那麼部長重啟核二核三您的立場呢"},{"start":3888.179,"end":3904.224,"text":"行政部门是依法行政您的立场呢核管法已经修了嘛让我们可以有这个依法对而且送到你这边啊送到行政院啊合下来了没有他说这个礼拜要合啊上次你答复本席的啊"},{"start":3905.144,"end":3911.007,"text":"對不對 你們台電送給你們你們要給這個行政院嘛你告訴本席 上個禮拜告訴本席說這個禮拜行政院要簽準跟不準嘛 簽了嗎今天禮拜四耶 簽了嗎12月初啦"},{"start":3923.553,"end":3938.23,"text":"你说下个礼拜怎么可能12月初到贷对不对为什么会这样子呢在这边都有录音录影我们希望好好的给你们力量去协助民众发展我们的产业"},{"start":3938.55,"end":3956.5,"text":"又來了一個盡快剛剛國發會主委告訴我盡快我問了最後他說他沒有辦法告訴我時間那現在你又來一個盡快那在你的立場因為廖院長已經正式的在教育委員會答覆本席那請問您的立場"},{"start":3958.041,"end":3976.932,"text":"您不支持朝這個方 依法行政當然所以我們也改了這個法律嘛那所以本席再一次的請教你您的立場 因為我們需求量很大而且政府也說採開放式的態度去看待核電再重啟以及核電的新技術 對不對"},{"start":3979.053,"end":3998.522,"text":"對 那你的立場支不支持核二核三在安全無力的範圍之內呢那麼重啟核二跟核三來增加電力對 包委員您剛才講說安全無意所以我們現在就在12月初之前我們就看看那個如果安全無意可以大致上可以完成我們就會簽核然後就會開始啟動"},{"start":3999.662,"end":4027.569,"text":"好所以方向是一致的也就是依法那你們會行政院你要趕快去追啊因為他追了之後你還要後續要檢查我們還是要安全啊那如果在安全無慮的這個情況之下您經濟部長的立場是同意合二合三來做這個重啟增加我們的定力三個原則就是合安合肺跟共識嘛"},{"start":4028.989,"end":4051.921,"text":"现在就是把核安真的赶快做好好那刚刚这个我们有共识那请教刚刚国防卫主委您说要问经济部那么这个算力超级电脑我们增加这个理当政府就一定要超前来部署那什么时候可以将你们预估的这个电量管控评估"},{"start":4053.341,"end":4070.247,"text":"請告訴社會大眾 給本席我們2032年之前也做了一些估算那當然國會他們也有一些規劃剛剛本席已經告訴你那沒有加入沒有加入超級電腦也沒有加入算力啊國會主委在你身邊啊他說他要問你你要讓他問啊我知道"},{"start":4071.987,"end":4099.663,"text":"你知道要什么时候吗我们都会滚动检讨你请告诉我们一个时间点因为产业很急一个月一个月内告诉本席你们的怎么样去计算怎么样去布建一个月内告诉本席接下来本席要请教我们的速发部速发部跟经济部请留下速发部谢谢"},{"start":4103.536,"end":4120.435,"text":"速發部AI人才的培育是國家數位轉型非常重要以及產業升級的關鍵命脈政府當然責無旁貸必須要去帶頭推動但是我們現在AI的人才在國家級的檢定經濟部是IPAS"},{"start":4121.016,"end":4145.027,"text":"IPAS的部分剛剛部長也說了今年度你們一萬四千人一位部長一萬四千人去報名然後有六千五百人通過那初期的部分上個禮拜本席也跟部長在討論也就是你們將初期的部分初期來考試考為中高級所以你在初期的公布通過的認證是38%"},{"start":4147.808,"end":4163.395,"text":"那其實這個部分是希望能夠全面的去推動抒發部我們這個部分是不是台灣既然要成為AI人才島那我們更應該全面去推進嗎是不是 抒發部"},{"start":4164.435,"end":4179.291,"text":"是跟委員報告其實除了經濟部他們就是經濟部處理的這個iPath這個認證之外本席請問你我們既然認為是AI的人才培育是國家數位轉型跟產業發展的關鍵命脈"},{"start":4181.033,"end":4197.068,"text":"那我们是不是各部会因为你现在没有一个统筹单位嘛各部会散布在各部会你让他们去做嘛但是我们要看他的成效啊所以这个原则是不是应该全面全民去推动是不是是是完全是嘛所以"},{"start":4198.249,"end":4213.154,"text":"他們現在要繳4000到6000元的學費那考試的部分大概1300塊但是我們看到你的認證的部分大家認為教學的品質以及過時的教材這個部分是不是應該要去精進方案"},{"start":4223.1,"end":4242.128,"text":"跟委員報告 這個部分因為是經濟部這邊處理的不是經濟部處理 是職策會現在本席所說的是職策會你是抒發部啊 你怎麼會就推到經濟部呢我們單位主管敬請各位各盡本職既然你要散落在各部會 你就應該要負責啊"},{"start":4243.668,"end":4265.05,"text":"是不是 所以針對你的這個教材針對教學品質 本席具體要求你書發布要好好的去精進好 精進方案給本席那部長 上次本席告訴你說你考試要公佈答案呢你現在公佈了嗎 什麼時候要公佈"},{"start":4266.613,"end":4292.583,"text":"就是考完以後就會公布你沒有公布啊 你到現在還沒公布啊大家都在等啊一個禮拜 一個禮拜為什麼可以這樣亂答呢本席上次就跟你討論這個問題我們既然要全面的推動你也答覆本席說要公布到現在還在那邊牽扯還在那邊牽扯 還不公布跟你答的跟做的完全不一樣你怎麼樣取信於人民呢"},{"start":4294.58,"end":4321.485,"text":"AI的認證這麼樣的重要為什麼要胡亂打連你在現場答覆說要公佈答案到現在還沒公佈什麼時候要公佈一個禮拜以內現在開始的一個禮拜還是上個禮拜的一個禮拜現在現在開始好我們有錄音錄音我希望你盡快公佈還有公版的教材因為你剛開始部長"},{"start":4322.765,"end":4329.595,"text":"你剛開始你要公本的教材你給社會大眾大家一起來學習這才是我們要的嘛 是不是"},{"start":4330.973,"end":4357.495,"text":"是不是蘇發部部長 經濟部部長為什麼各部會 既然政府現在還沒有辦法去統一那你應該各部會你必須將你的材料 你的教材你考試完公佈答案你不公佈答案我怎麼知道你給我通過跟不通過是真的還假的為什麼政府要做這樣 連這個都要詐騙不可以如此嘛"},{"start":4358.838,"end":4386.175,"text":"經濟部長 您說一個禮拜內公布嘛因為你中期的快要公布了希望 本期希望你公布答案啊這本來就應該公布的嘛讓大家有所學習嘛 對不對教材的部分我請一定要去精進讓大家全民推動我們才是一個真正的AI之島嘛請照剛剛所說的時間點據此作出 謝謝"},{"start":4397.024,"end":4400.587,"text":"謝謝 我們現在請鄭天才委員請鄭委員選擇召委 有請經濟部長還有勞動部的代表好 我們請兩位 謝謝鄭委員早好"},{"start":4425.165,"end":4436.35,"text":"好 今天我就先引用這個國發會的報告國會的報告裡面特別提到這個國發會這個要會同"},{"start":4441.421,"end":4466.137,"text":"會同協調國科會還有經濟部、速發部、教育部、勞動部等相關部會共同推動AI新十大建設而從智慧運用關鍵技術與數位基礎三大面向最重要的就是加速產業升級以創新轉型擴大產值創造高薪就業的機會"},{"start":4469.062,"end":4494.425,"text":"所以這樣的一個AI新時代建設就是要培育新世代人才培育產業始作人才當然這邊有提到延展專業人才所以很重要就是經濟部跟勞動部當然跟教育部也有關係也有很大的關係"},{"start":4497.216,"end":4525.669,"text":"那經濟部當然很多除了中小企業還有更大型的企業服務業 製造業等AI運用及AI新秀AI市產線計畫吸索產業 蓄積人才實力現在都在做了 現在就是當然因為我是原住民的立委那我們原住民的勞工普遍都"},{"start":4527.113,"end":4550.968,"text":"这个在制造业或是营造业积多了那这样在其他的中小企业或是其他的这些产业就比较少所以如果也有的时候所以经济部这边能不能救这个有原住民的"},{"start":4552.125,"end":4578.378,"text":"企業也能夠有相關這些重要的這些延展人才或是相關的訓練企業自己辦的訓練的時候能夠鼓勵他們也能夠將原住民的這些他們的職業能夠納入當然很重要的就是勞動部"},{"start":4580.665,"end":4607.879,"text":"勞動部你們在辦理的時候你的報告裡面有提到為加強人才韌性鼓勵勞工自主學習新知推動產業人才投資方案再指勞工參加經審查核定資物聯網大書記及人工智慧等實務課程所以你們在擠辦的時候就是能夠特別能夠"},{"start":4610.445,"end":4624.797,"text":"保障這個原住民的名額這個這樣的話無論是經濟部或是勞動部共同的去推動的時候原住民也能夠在這個"},{"start":4626.26,"end":4647.425,"text":"AI的这样的一个产业能够被纳入然后相关的他的就业他的薪资当然就会跟着增加劳动部可以先说明一下谢谢政委员的指教原住民朋友相应的所需我们一定会尽全力来加以协助那我们在"},{"start":4648.195,"end":4666.136,"text":"AI這一邊其實政府各部會根據AI的使用開發跟研究不同的面向教育部、經濟部、勞動部、速發部、國科會、國發會通通都會一起來努力那就勞動部跟經濟部而言"},{"start":4666.696,"end":4680.563,"text":"我們其實針對產業所需要的人才他們會透過iPath我們會透過iCAP去把AI所需要的部分透過智能基準的開發去做相應的處理原住民朋友過往在製造業"},{"start":4683.004,"end":4705.08,"text":"营造业现在又有一大部分在服务业那就劳动部的角度而言使用AI可以预防灾害降灾减灾在职安位上一定会有比较多的琢磨那这一部分会有助于援助朋友的职场安全卫生那至于技能落差的部分不管是在企业内部的办讯"},{"start":4706.444,"end":4735.722,"text":"人力提升计划或者是说技能方面的衔接或者是相关的部分我们都会来提供必要的协助那如果将来在开班的课程上面我们也会鼓励原住民朋友来参加那个很重要的其实就是你在相关的这些简章的时候有特别明定的话才会有特别这样的一个相关的"},{"start":4737.604,"end":4752.645,"text":"譬如說地方政府的勞工單位或是相關的你們的地方的你們所屬的地方的這些機構他就會主動去"},{"start":4754.549,"end":4769.407,"text":"去邀請就會鼓勵他們參加這部分對原住民朋友因為我們如果匡列一定的名額有些時候如果原住民朋友剛好沒有這樣的需求就會變成名額浪子但是我們針對原住民朋友來參訓的時候我們會加分優先錄取"},{"start":4772.33,"end":4797.672,"text":"不是 你可以寫優先 優先多少的比例如果沒有人報名 當然就其他人那額外要更好啊那這個部長可以嗎我們方向也是像勞動部這樣來辦就是鼓勵啦 用鼓勵的形式啦但是要不要用硬性一定的比例 這個我們再來研究看看"},{"start":4798.776,"end":4821.497,"text":"不是保不是說一定要而是說你有列出這樣的話這些基層的或者是中小企業他就會主動去有沒有就是有這種鼓勵的一個性質所以這個部分在推動青年訓練這方面尤其是你們這邊也有提到那個"},{"start":4822.498,"end":4851.667,"text":"这个失业的对不对你们的劳动部也有提到所以这个部分是不是往这方向去去推动的话所以对于这个你们在推动青年的训练提升核心竞争力这方面尤其是这个即将就业的这些比如说15岁到29岁你一开始就有这方面的规划的时候自然"},{"start":4854.143,"end":4871.763,"text":"自然而然相关的企业或者是说尤其是地方政府你们的这个在各地区的就业服务机构他就会去主动因为有这样的一个"},{"start":4873.242,"end":4901.403,"text":"一个名额的或者是说优先的时候他当然就会往这方面如果都没有写的时候就会被忽略因为我们很多都是会原住民就是那个资讯就是传达的时候都已经来不及了会有这种情形甚至我们来加强这个部分就请经济部跟劳动部这个不会没有说一定要怎么样就是不要影响到"},{"start":4902.784,"end":4929.286,"text":"原來的計畫但是能夠有優先的一個機會好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請也是鄭委員曾振權委員請做詢問謝謝主席我想先請一下那個我們國發會主委"},{"start":4930.912,"end":4932.043,"text":"好 我們請郭芳蔚主委 謝謝"},{"start":4936.718,"end":4965.8,"text":"委員長主委早因為今天主席安排的一個題目其實非常的切合現在台灣那個需求有關台灣未來競爭力支持AI時代台灣如何贏得新的人才戰那我想說因為跟人才有關的議題其實非常的多因為人才的部分包括我們台灣自己培養也包括從國外那個去延攬去搶人才那我想說所以今天我們來的單位非常多除了國發會之外還包括我們"},{"start":4967.071,"end":4995.285,"text":"經濟部 國科會 教育部 勞動部等等那我想說我一開始的時候 先來講一下整個國際纜財的一個問題因為經濟部這邊直接講 之前曾經講過說未來4年的時候 台灣要有20萬個AI人才那這樣工作人員投入那這量非常的大 其實台灣的教育體系完全沒辦法直接培養出來這麼多的人那事實上說過去這幾年因為"},{"start":4996.046,"end":4997.715,"text":"整個美中貿易戰爭的一個"},{"start":5000.495,"end":5028.252,"text":"問題喔再加上長期以來就是一些華裔研發人員台裔研發人員在美國這個環境當中會經常碰到一個隱形玻璃天花板的一個問題喔所以說從2018年開始的時候其實很多很多的美國的一個高階的研發人員開始回流中國大陸跟其他的地方那事實上在光是2023年一年就有"},{"start":5029.184,"end":5036.813,"text":"超過4000名高科技研發人員回到大陸去那我想說台灣在這一波AI的一個全球"},{"start":5038.316,"end":5061.236,"text":"競爭過程當中也扮演非常重要的一個角色那我之前曾經問過一個有關於那個Tarantai One的問題就是國發會這邊有一個國際纜財的一個平台可是這平台非常的被動他就是弄成一個網站之後讓大家自己來點選那我想請教一下國發會主委我們國發會在這邊有沒有更積極的一些動作在做國際在搶奪人才"},{"start":5063.738,"end":5088.622,"text":"在爭取人才到台灣來可不可以請主委做一個具體的說明謝謝委員這個部分的話跟委員報告就是說像Talent Taiwan這個部分的那個網站其實我們已經有在做更進一步的一個優化譬如說原本都只有英文跟日文那其實我有跟同仁講說其實這個還不夠就是說你要有比較多的語言在裡面譬如說假如說我們"},{"start":5089.342,"end":5112.567,"text":"除了AI人才之外有一些譬如說像中階的一些工作的話我們可能會從那個新南向這一邊進來即使是AI的話我們也會鎖定在那個印度這一邊所以相對來講的話我們這個Talent Taiwan的這個部這個部分的網站的話其實我已經要求同仁這個就是我上次講的部分我們這個Talent Taiwan的部分就是"},{"start":5113.807,"end":5129.095,"text":"被動的等著大家來點選我說我們有沒有更積極的去爭取比方說我們在矽谷 在Boston這邊會不會有一些相關的一些招攬人才的單位去獵頭讓更多的人願意到台灣來"},{"start":5130.655,"end":5156.207,"text":"來壯大台灣的一個AI生態系有 跟委員報告其實我們也有透過那個Lindit這樣的一個網站那這個網站裡面儲存了大概10億筆的那個全球的人才那我們在這個網站裡面我們可以經由我們鎖定的一些領域那去點選完了之後的話這個網站就會跟我們講說在哪一個區域裡面這一類的人才是比較多的"},{"start":5156.647,"end":5179.553,"text":"那就AI人才這個部分來講的話我們發現就是說美國跟印度比較多那美國這個部分其實我們也有鎖定那我們在那個美國矽谷其實有一個StartupIsland Taiwan這樣的一個據點那我們也充分利用這個據點去延攬譬如說像喬二代啦或者是像海外的一些校友那其實都有在做一些連結以及辦一些活動那把台灣"},{"start":5180.673,"end":5209.533,"text":"需要的一些AI的人才都僅有這樣的一個機會好 謝謝主委你剛剛特別提到喬二代這個部分我也特別關心因為台灣其實坦白說有很多優秀的小留學生他們很小就出國去可是當他們到了一個職場的一個就入職場年紀會碰到一個兵役的問題所以在這邊的時候我想請教國發會我們是不是有評估評議過兵役的問題還有一些他們的配偶跟子女的入境居留就業"},{"start":5210.713,"end":5237.934,"text":"還有就學的一個問題對我們在纜財當中可能會碰到一些阻礙那我們這邊有沒有針對一個部分做一個跨部會的一個整合來試圖解決這樣的問題讓更多可能是我們的小留學生到國外去或者是一些國外的一些人才讓他們能夠更順暢的到台灣來否則的話很多比方說他們如果說是國外的人到台灣來如果他們有另外的一半配偶的時候那"},{"start":5238.925,"end":5251.782,"text":"如果他們不是高科技的人士他們可能在台灣是找不到工作的我們會不會有一些相關的一些配套來讓這些AI的高科技人才能夠更友善的到台灣來壯大台灣的生態系"},{"start":5253.985,"end":5270.949,"text":"就這部分跟委員報告我們在Talent Taiwan這樣的一個網站其實我們會提供一站式的服務也就是說只要我們接到案件的話我們會詢問就是說你對於在台灣居留你發生什麼樣的問題比如說我們比較常收到的一個狀況就是說他在金融"},{"start":5271.69,"end":5300.996,"text":"在銀行要開戶的時候他要怎麼開那這個部分的話其實我們都有後續的一些設計就是說只要進來那我們就可以協助他去在銀行開戶主委這個部分不只是發掘問題因為這邊現在台灣有一些是因為制度上的不夠友善讓很多人走不進來我剛剛提到兵役就是其中的一個環節那我們怎麼樣的方式能夠透過國發會的角色做一個跨部會的部分讓台灣在這個部分能夠更為友善"},{"start":5301.96,"end":5317.815,"text":"因為病疫問題涉及到舉這個例子啦那我剛剛包括講說配偶的一個工作的問題 路徑的問題小朋友的一個就學的問題等等甚至包括有些外籍人士他們如果到台灣來說小朋友都要再做一個相關的一個"},{"start":5318.863,"end":5343.216,"text":"學員的一個證明確定他是一個確定是他的一個子女等等的一個動作那我們會不會有一些跨部會的方式做更友善的一個制度上的一個改變而不是只是發現問題而已有就是說這一個部分我們Talent Taiwan不是只有我們國發會在做其他的一些部會假如說有碰到一些問題或什麼都可以透過這個Talent Taiwan跟我們反映譬如說像在"},{"start":5344.636,"end":5372.455,"text":"徵求一些國外人才的部分的話我們也跟外交部配合那外交部現在就是說外面的那個要申請進來的譬如說像數位有目這一塊的話原本是要用資本的那我們現在已經跟外交部合作說他是不是可以由線上直接申請那就委員提到那個配偶的問題的話我們在今年8月通過那個攬財專法裡面有針對特賺的配偶這個部分的工作的話其實是有放寬的OK"},{"start":5373.075,"end":5388.234,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我接下來我要特別提到一個跟教育部跟我們速發部這邊可能有點關係的部分就是台班怎麼樣去培養就是既有的一個人才那事實上從那個"},{"start":5389.485,"end":5417.822,"text":"NVIDIA其實在台灣要落腳的時候他們已經開出年薪550萬在搶人才所以竹科這邊也出現很多人才移動的一個潛在的一個因子那事實上就是台灣這邊的一些人才AI人才其實顯然是不夠的那就很多的數據都提出來那我這邊要特別提到就是說人才不夠的部分還包括教師荒的問題那我們要怎麼樣透過AI來補足教師荒不足的部分尤其像理科的一個教師人才"},{"start":5418.442,"end":5436.118,"text":"那有人提到說那可能就是用那個提高薪資的方式可是坦白說你不可能只提高理科老師的一個薪資所以這問題是一個很全面的所以我在這邊同時提到幾個問題一個就是整個人才培育的問題那我知道教育部這邊有一個接下來有一個四年的一個AI教育計畫"},{"start":5437.219,"end":5454.873,"text":"那我理解這個狀態可是我要特別提到的一個點就是說在整個我們AI教育當中的時候可能會出現有一些AI的一個資訊的一個不正確的問題所以說事實上包括BBC他們之前就曾經做過一個研究報告就說"},{"start":5456.038,"end":5474.424,"text":"AI生成出來的新聞資料當中的時候有45%是有問題的是不正確的就有AI資訊錯誤的一個問題然後事實上在美國這邊的時候歐洲這邊也出現了很多的一個AI的一個跟生成式對話語言的時候呢"},{"start":5475.425,"end":5488.065,"text":"會導致他們出現一些心理上面一些問題所以自殺的問題變得非常非常的嚴重然後再加上最近在台灣有很多AI生成式AI自動生成的一些醫療網站"},{"start":5490.097,"end":5509.803,"text":"然後出現很多的醫療詐騙的一個問題AI詐騙的一個問題那我想這些問題都是我們在做整個AI生態系在人才提供的過程當中我們要讓整個AI生態系更完整的過程當中都會碰到的部分那我想針對這部分先請教育部這邊簡單回應一下剛剛有兩個部分都跟教育部這邊有關"},{"start":5512.172,"end":5538.264,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想在中小學的部分我們現在針對於課程教學學習的評量以及在作業的使用生成式AI其實已經都有相關的注意事項提醒老師跟學生要注意一些重要的原則另外我們在今年年底12月的時候我們也會有中小學使用AI的一個應用手冊會納入更多一個實際的範例來讓老師跟學生在"},{"start":5538.806,"end":5541.832,"text":"学习过程教学过程中会有更好的一些参考依循"},{"start":5543.055,"end":5569.114,"text":"因為AI它能夠模仿 能夠關心可是它沒有辦法真正理解情緒啦它可能可以陪伴它可能會產生一些誤導的一個狀態就像BBC他們研究整個新聞甚至是AI出現的狀態有45%的一個錯誤所以AI教導孩子可能會有一些知識的部分可以提供給他們可是可能也會模糊他們對判斷還有現實的感知尤其是現實感知的問題我覺得這非常的重要所以也希望說我們教育部在"},{"start":5569.614,"end":5583.86,"text":"整個推動我們AI教育當中的時候對這個部分能夠特別的去重視因為這是一個很長期的一個問題而且如果發生了之後他是一輩子的問題好不好 針對這部分我們都特別去那針對那個"},{"start":5585.18,"end":5607.627,"text":"整個AI詐騙的部分我剛剛特別提到有關於比方說醫療網站詐騙因為很多視頻一出來都是百萬人點選那很多老人家可能就很容易被詐騙那目前我知道數位部這邊的時候他們可能有一些相關的一些計畫在培訓老人家可是量遠遠的不夠這部分可不可以簡單做個回應"},{"start":5607.927,"end":5627.814,"text":"是 謝謝委員就這個部分我們其實從今就是已經在做的是一個叫數位鬥陣區的一個計畫那到各個城鄉去持續性幾乎每週的辦活動那我們未來明年也會擴大跟更大型的活動合辦另外也跟在地的也希望跟在地的這個民間組織"},{"start":5629.094,"end":5656.009,"text":"包括各式各樣的民間組織甚至像是老人安養中心然後廟宇這些那去推動讓老人家能夠更有機會去了解這些風險那我們目前的這個不論是教材或是比較親民的這個遊戲這些方式其實都已經洗背了那明年會用更大規模的就是更和民間合作的方式去推動這件事情OK 謝謝因為那個"},{"start":5658.69,"end":5672.476,"text":"詐騙是現在台灣所有人民心中最不爽的一個部分所以我們希望這麼多AI生成式的詐騙的部分我們數位部這邊能夠扮演更激烈角色來防詐騙這個部分好不好謝謝"},{"start":5686.508,"end":5690.989,"text":"好來接下來謝謝我們請賴立仁委員請做詢問謝謝好謝謝召委我請速發部的侯正志請速發部好市長好我先請教一下其實總統在昨天有提到了就是說"},{"start":5714.98,"end":5742.716,"text":"因為中國對於台灣始終做滲透啦那當然他希望能夠來這個滲透台灣甚至達到他想要的一個政治上的目的那所以當他這麼做他又是一個威權專制的國家的時候所以他所製作出來的一個深層式的AI就會存在包括有強迫同意不合理的一個隱私條款包括過度的收集個資還有逾越使用權限的一個等等資安的風險"},{"start":5743.777,"end":5751.477,"text":"這個部分束縛部有沒有掌握到我們是知道的那你們掌握到什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":5753.316,"end":5779.012,"text":"我们其实已经有提出这个就是我们在资安方面还有在这个AI的评测方面都已经定了就是测试的面向和一些测试的框架那在这一个从提供各个行政部门单位去做根据他们的职长可以去做验测那在这一个目前委员秀出来的这一个这个"},{"start":5780.252,"end":5805.483,"text":"其实是国安单位根据我们这边的这个验测框架去验测的一个结果所以中国大陆这五款这五款的部分都是有涉及到这个问题是不是是的但我可以特别再跟委员说其实因为中国的这个生成式AI模型他们必须要符合中国的相关法律所以他其实在"},{"start":5806.723,"end":5828.354,"text":"實際上撤之前你大概就可以預期他會有這樣子的狀況因為他有國家要賦予他的責任嘛所以他一定是要接受他才有可能國家才有可能要這樣發展因為在大陸那邊他其實有很晚就是會要求要那這樣的話我們要怎麼樣去讓他不會對我們造成這些資安上的影響"},{"start":5829.231,"end":5853.642,"text":"第一個我們在這個就是公務機關這邊就是已經很明確的禁止所以公務機關是禁止使用這五個中國大陸的AI生成式的就是關於中國製的這個模型我們是禁止使用的中國製的全部都禁止公務機關全部禁止那其他的部分呢其他的就企業跟一般人民的部分"},{"start":5854.142,"end":5881.67,"text":"怎么样去让他们更清楚的了解这里的风险就企业跟一般人民这个当然检测这部分的事情我觉得是非常需要那我们在未来推动上也会持续性的其实我们会做相关的这个验测的发布目前这个AIEC这边也有做验测的发布那另外像是对于就是业者的这个还有使用者这边的提醒我们也会持续"},{"start":5882.97,"end":5909.797,"text":"去處理書包部可能要更積極的不斷去示警讓企業 讓一般人民知道就有可能你使用的這些中置的AI的話有可能會產生裡面的包括隱私的問題甚至你的個資被洩漏被蒐集甚至於你的使用權限被逾越了但甚至有可能你會被取得更多不應該被取得一些資訊因為它並不是一個安全的一個狀況"},{"start":5910.957,"end":5934.783,"text":"這個部分我希望速發部要定期的發布定期的提醒因為唯有不斷的提醒的時候所有的企業所有的國人才會更謹慎小心使用這些那我再次請問一下那你們會認為會建議國人來使用這些的這個生成式AIM嗎中國這些生成式AIM嗎以速發部的立場當然會認為說這是有一些疑慮的"},{"start":5937.024,"end":5941.287,"text":"但是对于实际上业界他们因为应用场景的不一样"},{"start":5965.703,"end":5981.713,"text":"开源模型的状况底下呢业界它可能会在他们需要的这个成本效益的考量底下他们会去做他们得要自己去做判断我希望市长刚刚讲这些东西因为因应不同的有不同的需要特别在教育系统它有可能被"},{"start":5982.854,"end":6004.467,"text":"認知作戰甚至洗腦的話那對於會產生影響那類似像這樣的當然就有的企業上是不一樣我希望美季的部分至少速發布能不能定期的就你們所掌握到的資訊發布給國人跟企業知道好不好就是再不斷的提醒因為這樣的事情當我們在第一線面臨到第一線的這個這些威脅的時候甚至於整個滲透的時候那"},{"start":6005.067,"end":6026.986,"text":"政府部門也必須扮演一個很重要的角色那至少在公部門當然不能用但是在民間的部分在國人部門要不斷地示警他們讓他們知道這件事情可能嚴重而不是等到了事情發生了以後然後他們的重要的個資被洩漏甚至於他們被整個所有的一些被掌控了之後然後才發現政府為什麼從來都沒有提醒過我們"},{"start":6027.406,"end":6056.156,"text":"好不好 我希望美季能夠定期來提供就你們所掌握到的資訊提供給7N國人那再來我請教一下其實世界各國其實都有注意到了這個中置AI的一些風險那有些甚至於是全面的禁止使用甚至於或者是提出包括像美國 德國 義大利 荷蘭他們對於這種中置的AI的這個有發出一些有的是禁用的 是避免使用的部分那台灣的態度呢我們的態度呢"},{"start":6058.058,"end":6065.412,"text":"我們會考慮未來朝向如果對於確實有產生很重大的治安危機國安危機的部分會考慮有禁用的考量嗎"},{"start":6066.438,"end":6093.26,"text":"在某一些特定的狀況底下在法律授權的範圍內我覺得這是可以被考慮的好 我希望這個部分將來要審慎的思考進去然後就有些很明顯的它是具有的統戰任務或具有的認知作戰任務的它是很明確的那個部分其實應該因為我們是第一線我們是第一線的被攻擊被攻擊的對象的時候甚至於被滲透的對象的時候我們應該要有更強的防衛機制這個要不然其他世界民主國家覺得你台灣為什麼"},{"start":6093.98,"end":6109.823,"text":"對這一塊似乎沒有進行你該有的防禦當其他國家都在防禦的時候你卻沒有我們看到很多啦有些很明顯的包括他的這個政治立場甚至於他可能做出來這個台灣不存在啦或者是台灣屬於中國的一部分啦或者是"},{"start":6110.564,"end":6125.071,"text":"台灣不是一個國家啦或者是六四天安門這個字眼是不可以出現顯然他很多是具有很多的被政治篩選過的他只要你看到他要的東西而已他並不是全面的甚至於他會刻意去篩給你"},{"start":6126.091,"end":6142.975,"text":"他想要給你看到的東西我認為這個都是會影響到我們整體的整個運作的我希望甚至於更嚴重的是未來如果他滲透成功他甚至有可能發出網路的攻擊在關鍵的時刻他發動網路攻擊他掌握到你更多的一些資訊的這些的時候"},{"start":6146.56,"end":6164.748,"text":"輕的是發動攻擊戰抹黑戰重則直接進行更大的網路性的攻擊而這個都是我們應該在速發部在政府部門要必須要做的防衛機制我希望這一塊未來都要不斷把它訂定出來甚至於提醒國人注意我們會更積極在就是用所有的資源去"},{"start":6165.248,"end":6183.437,"text":"我希望這件事情一方面我們在發展我們的AI但是一方面我們也要去保護我們自己的這個國家的安全好不好這個我希望每季能夠看到你們有你們該提出來的一些東西出來我們再看一下中國政治AI的這個檢測你看這個這麼多的紅點全部都是不合格的項目"},{"start":6184.097,"end":6198.487,"text":"我想這個你們也是你們有所擁有的資料啦也是國安這邊有資料全部都是都是充滿了很多的問題所以我覺得以這樣的狀況來看是必須要很認真面對中智的這個AI的問題"},{"start":6199.607,"end":6219.344,"text":"好不好我希望每季能夠看到你們的一些要求再來我想一下因為台灣其實在我們AI的一些評比上面其實表現是中上的其實大家也都認為那我們很關鍵在於優勢在於我們的一些基礎建設或者整備等等都做得不錯但是我們的法令的部分跟我們相關的這些反倒是比較慢的"},{"start":6219.904,"end":6234.522,"text":"那包括我們的創新技術也有所一些退步那現在因為我們有一個人工智慧基本法現在也在院裡面要審這些部分如果我先問一下次長預定什麼時候可以來通過你們期待什麼時候通過"},{"start":6236.288,"end":6265.849,"text":"我希望委員支持也能夠盡快盡快嘛對不對現在已經在月裡了我們也希望朝野也支持這個對於整個未來人工智慧基本法它的發展重要特別現在是全世界都在發展AI的時候這是一個很重要的法那我們希望盡快通過那同時間我也希望通過之後剛剛幾個重要的那些的我也希望未來軟硬體的部分都能夠更持續來加大讓我們的在AI這一塊是有更強的一個國力的那現在普遍大家也能看好台灣是具有這樣的能量的"},{"start":6266.249,"end":6280.601,"text":"好不好那我们希望速发部跟各部会继续加油希望我们台湾在这一块能有更好的一个成果好谢谢谢谢委员指教我们更积极谢谢好谢谢接下来我们请陈超明委员请做询答"},{"start":6291.778,"end":6316.666,"text":"謝謝主席首先有請國科會師傅職委還有我們經濟部管部長還有國華會我們的葉執委我請國科會的師傅職委站中間來回答我很少用 PowerPoint 在委員會執行"},{"start":6318.41,"end":6343.089,"text":"但今天我逮到了一個機會剛好三個人碰在一起我要好好的討論這個問題也希望你們真正解決這個問題但是我的感受很深剛剛我聽到陳田惠委員在執行南部大溪谷計畫的時候我們執委都帶著微笑是是是我會全力推動"},{"start":6344.489,"end":6372.403,"text":"但是說到陶瓷廟大溪谷計畫在苗栗的時候你們都愁眉苦臉今天師傅指委我的標題很清楚陶瓷廟大溪谷計畫請國科會要勇於擔當勇於認識在這我一定港部長當經濟部長又當行政院秘書長我拜託也沒有一個的缺點"},{"start":6373.743,"end":6400.129,"text":"夏洛我跟你講過幾十遍了不要忘記我你要忘記我你就曉得我期待在哪裡那我們的葉執委你的劉全執委他卸任以前早上7點鐘給我一個night說感謝我支持國安會但是他跟我很抱歉一件事情就是職燃科學M7第二期的推展計畫他沒有協調成功"},{"start":6401.804,"end":6416.226,"text":"你一上任我也請你來幫這個忙好 你說好 好到時候看不到人影只看到綠色的委員你就是看到藍色的委員就好像都搖頭不是啊我們心態要改這是國家中大的建設計畫"},{"start":6418.291,"end":6437.507,"text":"那四十位行政院在113年9月正式核定陶瓷苗大矽谷计划最积极最认真最努力就是我们苗栗县我们中东景县长就开始发动一直发动都准备好了在那边"},{"start":6438.53,"end":6454.548,"text":"因为苗栗县是创建西部科技走廊的一个关键它可以接连台中可以接连了新竹科学研究你非常的清楚这个是一个快保定所以我们一直在推展地方投资苗栗也是最好"},{"start":6455.609,"end":6471.317,"text":"現在廟宇管有三個土地厚隆科技產業園區那經濟部 郭次長承諾而且答應了 會再實現擔任主管機關是為目的的主管機關"},{"start":6473.339,"end":6499.773,"text":"第二塊在自然科學研究以東的產業研究那日現在都是計劃通盤檢討已經在進行之中再來就第三塊自然科學研究擴大案就是自然科的第二期目前仍然沒有主管機關這個交工是國科會要做但是我跟師傅指揮其實"},{"start":6503.246,"end":6520.477,"text":"新竹科学园区开发 职丸科学园区开发我都有参与过阳文科 县长在当土地子执掌的时候我就参与过 他了解这整个情形我现在要叫你们国科会担任主管机关你们不敢答应"},{"start":6521.488,"end":6548.543,"text":"尤其你新職課的一個留職長你的要不然做就推出去 推出去真沒辦法做事情去內政部請一個專家來給你指導怎麼做你不要只帶著我一下我不喜歡笑我喜歡真的實際的解決問題你們都沒想到辦法要怎麼來改革我提出了一個方案請國科會有擔當你們不來做也沒關係你們沒有那個領域也沒關係"},{"start":6550.765,"end":6570.369,"text":"你們是科技人才 您說這個地方我不熟 也不要請那我請國科會擔任主管機關你們可不可以苗栗縣政府來開挖這個是一種方式啊不要一碰到問題不想辦 只想要拿國家的土地台南的土地來做科學運區亂來勒"},{"start":6573.314,"end":6601.067,"text":"對的困難就沒什麼改觀所以你國科會只跟大學那些聯絡計畫領導在做什麼科學研究室大家打拼出來也不是你國科會的你要推展一個大的計畫要大的氣泡要想辦法解決一個困難第二個不然我們改由經濟部擔任主管機關由美國立憲政府開發轉由國科會來給你們使用那你辦法也不會讓人家去想"},{"start":6602.327,"end":6624.484,"text":"你們困難就知道 你們要怎麼做有各種方法來不然剛才這樣說 我說沒辦法做 我要怎麼一直排進我的希望啊 職客人要留職長換掉不做事情 做那個位置啊 你要給我回答嗎我給你提倡人工方法"},{"start":6626.141,"end":6654.29,"text":"你要不要回去考慮那個葉子緯這個計畫裡面第二點如果改的時候你要轉給行政院啊 港部長我是千拜託萬拜託拜託你沒法 我沒想過你關車那麼大為國防衛職委跟行政院秘書長跟經濟部長那些人扭頭頭啊 理事專家這種問題都沒有辦法解決國家的大政計畫你能做什麼"},{"start":6656.525,"end":6681.579,"text":"我們後龍的部分我們會把它做好因為我們已經後龍的部分後龍OK了我們對我們對對對這個我要感謝你再來竹蘭的如果你當過國科國化會主席的前政院秘書長如果有國科會擔任主管機關你們委託苗栗縣政府來開發可以不可以我可以想出來你不想不出來"},{"start":6684.972,"end":6710.641,"text":"你正在那邊 公務員報告科學園區的開發確實是由國科會擔任主管機關但是那整塊地要是科學園區所有都需要的土地目前的竹南科的擴大的範圍因為有許多的是私地也有一些夾雜的公有土地整塊裡面出來了之後能夠做科學園區的部分其實只有一部分"},{"start":6711.301,"end":6738.904,"text":"那這一部分要等完全開發完之後完成區段徵收或者是勢力重劃或者是其他開發方式以後所取得可以供科學人去使用你們要不然你跟我說是我們都想好在等你你不要用這種理由我們專程來討論是好不好我國安會主席會來這個可以跟委員一起再來討論我跟你說你們自己說你們要不然你們走整個浪花林我們也不一定你到時候來拜託我們是"},{"start":6740.595,"end":6757.902,"text":"不像我這樣講話啦 碰到南部的 你什麼都答應沒有沒有 因為這個部分在桃竹苗大細股裡面本來就有匡列那時候在苗栗所需求的所需求匡列進來 行政院核定你要把它推翻核定嗎對 那南部的不會是整塊的部分我會整塊給你 剛剛也有談過了"},{"start":6761.249,"end":6787.106,"text":"你委义乎苗栗县政府你们要多少跟我们讲嘛所以我们有跟苗栗县政府一直跟他拜托说这个具体的范围要能够划出来之后我们会划出来嘛还没做你给我们同意当主管机关我们才有办法划才有办法进行计划嘛是那整块范围里面因为只有一部分是产业用地赵伯给我多一点时间我这事情没说清楚好不好"},{"start":6790.266,"end":6813.02,"text":"我再跟委員報告這裡面的產業用地只有占一部分也許占到百分之二十但是其他的百分之八十也許有一些部分要做公共設施有一些部分要做其他的用地那這整塊裡面我三百公頃我們剩下台灣的肉地八百公頃出來你說你不要靠海邊的我給你靠路邊的"},{"start":6815.129,"end":6844.05,"text":"不是叫你們開始 開發費用的時候你們要的土地你們再來嘛哪有出了困難就用這樣來撒沒有 明明就是那些南部我困難一下子你們就通過了南部的範圍 南部的範圍是300公尺全部都是科學園區那假設這300公尺裡面只有180是科學園區要看這180在哪裡我們才有辦法繼續後續的可行性你讓我問出來是"},{"start":6844.77,"end":6846.813,"text":"你們要多少寫出來你們要什麼樣的土地寫出來"},{"start":6858.769,"end":6887.028,"text":"不然我們哪裡動去都要用但是這個涉及到這個300公頃裡面所有的開發的設施不是只有國科會的未來可以做科學園區的部分所以它其實是一個整體的都市計畫的開發都市土地的開發我跟你講我們自己縣政府留有多少的土地開發出來的時候留有公共的土地給你們嘛民間的我們不動嘛你來談就把這個條件寫上嘛"},{"start":6889.785,"end":6904.013,"text":"與這個主管機關的部分科學園區當然是國科會做主管機關你委託給他 大家講清楚 不同說大家要做的 我不行 那個也不行是依法的問題什麼依法的問題"},{"start":6905.266,"end":6910.951,"text":"各級的法令我們一條一條研究你唯有給他兩個跟縣政府條件談好就可以了所以我們就是拜託管政府把整體的範圍用出來之後循都市計畫或國土計畫的方式來做開發這個是沒有問題的已經也有很多案例是這樣來處理的"},{"start":6929.633,"end":6958.335,"text":"不然我們管政府說很困難你們自己說不像去做使館習慣不困難 譬如說目前你現在要叫我第一步怎麼做 跟我講清楚是為了範圍出來範圍確定出來之後做可行性評估包含土地所有全人願不願意參加驅散徵收或試地重發的開發方式願意 願意 你們都不知道要怎樣行唉呦 你們弄嚇到我你小時候來拜託我因為在科學學院我說要拜託我可以"},{"start":6959.438,"end":6973.931,"text":"簽了75%我才答應替你們推動一個月裡面超過75%寫同意現在人家要做什麼了你們都不了解而且國有土地一大片在那一邊"},{"start":6975.29,"end":6994.072,"text":"空著浪費 你自己想想你的立場不想整體發展的一個立場好不好 這個我一定 你要沒我來找你葉子惠 如果我要改變方式的時候你要報給行政院 那港部長會請你幫忙不要變有藍色啦"},{"start":6995.205,"end":7021.961,"text":"南部的立委跟你講 你就笑嘻嘻的 我跟你要求你好像苦瓜蓮一樣 我心裡寒耶沒有 後龍我們會做好好不好 一起努力啦這個核定的計畫是你當執委的時候送出來的嘛你當國防部執委送出來的 國科委啊 勇於承擔 勇於認識不過做行政官的一個資格啦"},{"start":7022.523,"end":7042.068,"text":"會啦 我們都一直很勇於承擔啦但是還是要依法來進行那好 下來關於AI司法部的我一下子就好我把AI你們目前遭遇的困難保證啊 主委啊副主委 要給我擔當啊要給我來做啊 不然這樣丟地啊跟他講得很好聽啊還有經濟部啊"},{"start":7052.236,"end":7080.225,"text":"那AI新十大建設是AI政策裡面最重要的現在有四個部位抱歉 因為戴耳機我一直覺得很懷疑一點"},{"start":7082.096,"end":7108.844,"text":"你们事发部是产业应用那由事发部来主导那经济部是百工百业落地的应用到底是什么两只车子啊一个是产业应用跟百工百业的落地应用我要怎么来选择什么叫做产业应用什么叫做百工百业落地应用你跟我清楚嘛"},{"start":7112.072,"end":7132.655,"text":"跟委員報告 書發部這邊主責的是AI數位的產業登峰我們會聚焦在關於軟體支付業這邊的能量的提升你那邊屬於軟體的 是 支付軟體業經濟部的白宮白院是屬於什麼的"},{"start":7133.353,"end":7147.049,"text":"就是AI應用在這個百工百業裡面比如說製造業或服務業所以你們這叫做站在分店沒了解產業沒地方去做過不然去企業裡面去模擬去找找過你們這樣感覺說噢 漂亮"},{"start":7150.566,"end":7166.053,"text":"这里面很重要目前台湾里面关于开发导致使用AI有三种人才那技术开发台湾有什么问题懂得使用AI的人会不会现在里面困难在哪里"},{"start":7167.173,"end":7193.571,"text":"就是懂得AI的人不懂得产业完全同意是所以你这AI要行你的软体要成要跟产业的技术一个结合你才有办法落地生根是所以你现在两个部门这样在我不晓得谁在负责大家抢经费抢得很厉害市会部的产业抢了很多钱拿了很多钱软体的运用来"},{"start":7194.412,"end":7220.9,"text":"你去做AI最重要它在那個深度的學習所以你要懂得AI也要懂得產業技術的人才有辦法讓AI落地生根你現在曉得嗎經濟部誰對這個那樣現在要懂得AI又懂得產業的技術你只要去到工廠他怕把這個技術外流出去"},{"start":7222.665,"end":7244.116,"text":"所以會遭遇到很大的一個問題技術外流第二個我如果AI機械人會了你不請我了所以都保留起來都套上保底這是我們要面臨的問題那經濟部尤其技術師跟產業發展史這個地方你們要琢磨深一點"},{"start":7245.339,"end":7261.304,"text":"我不曉得世衛部在軟體裡面到底你軟體出來 你要怎麼去應用要怎麼讓機械人能深度的學習好像人的這樣懷念好不好 注意一下啦不要一個產業的應用一個白宮 白地 陸地的應用我感覺這甲就很壞 甲能做好事啦 甲能提升"},{"start":7270.046,"end":7297.917,"text":"对 就是我们跟经济部这边会有密切的合作因为我们从上游的这个大型模型录下来这样子我看起来是构想其事就听听就好看我们的表现国家花了那么多的钱我希望能做出效益出来谢谢 谢谢主席讲得太久好 谢谢陈超明委员我也请主管机关单位因为这个都是国家很重要的产业方针跟这个"},{"start":7300.139,"end":7311.472,"text":"藍圖必須要去執行所以在答覆的時候也請尊重所有的委員委員剛剛陳昌明委員說的是希望他的大細股到底要哪一個單位可以去當主席辦單位"},{"start":7314.255,"end":7339.464,"text":"但是部長您回答經理部長回答說我喉嚨我會做好他喉嚨就已經ING進行式了本來就一定要做好的跟剛剛陳昌明委員所提問的是不相關另外一個議題所以我還是在這邊主席台在這邊因為我們經濟委員會非常的溫和而且是針對於國家的重大政策以及執行大家用心的來做詢問"},{"start":7341.325,"end":7353.501,"text":"因為這裡都有錄音錄影我不希望說答覆的部分跟委員的提問它是不相關的就要拜託大家一起為產業加油謝謝接下來我們請邱志維委員請做答詢"},{"start":7365.36,"end":7375.982,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請國安會葉主委然後經濟部龔部長好 謝謝邱委員選擇 來請國科會書副主委請三位 來請 謝謝其實我相對不是很溫和但是我很堅定的有毅力切而不捨這個想請教三位就是三位對台積電2奈米這個事件"},{"start":7393.137,"end":7400.843,"text":"那這個如何避免類似的狀況再度發生 有沒有做過討論請問部長 請問主委 請問這個次長 有沒有做過相關的討論"},{"start":7407.279,"end":7429.008,"text":"對 那因為那個法的位階我們已經提高了嘛原來是營業秘密法現在提高到國安法嘛這個發生當然對我們先進製程會有很大的衝擊影響評估你們也要去了解一下先進製程的部分那如果避免類似的狀況再發生一定要跨部位 那個葉主委你的微笑一對 葉主委"},{"start":7430.528,"end":7455.627,"text":"因為就看了一下資料其實第一個跟委員報告就是說跑去Intel那部分我有朋友在台積電工作他是說其實台積電他們內部對於退休的人員其實在退的一兩年他就會把他調到一個跟不會去接觸到很密你也是台積電的董事是"},{"start":7456.628,"end":7462.114,"text":"所以他其實在一年多前已經被調到不會接觸到很核心的感覺那是內控的問題是不是"},{"start":7463.49,"end":7492.751,"text":"是個人的問題不是內控的問題是他個人的問題對基本上就是說他是不是有copy這件事情的話就是讓那個台積電或者是剪掉自己去查對於我們的那個技術外洩這一塊的話我想大家應該對台積電還蠻有信心的不會因為一個人一個人就會影響到台積電對先進製程的衝擊應該沒有那麼大對那這個1.4奈米1.4奈米我長期都希望說能夠在高雄"},{"start":7493.251,"end":7521.433,"text":"那高雄有兩個點 南市產業園區跟這個白浦產業園區那我當然希望說能夠分散就是說這兩個地方距離不遠那白浦的交通更方便那有五個廠已經在南市產業園區希望再有一個廠在這個白浦產業園區我想這個包括廣布長 包括葉主委 包括蘇市長你們對這個事情都很了解目前的可能性如何各位有沒有跟台積電提出建議"},{"start":7523.292,"end":7549.86,"text":"因為我都詢問過我都請教你們三位你們說好你們會跟台積電建議到底有沒有建議呢未來可能性如何我們是還沒有放棄我們還繼續爭取有沒有這個可能性第一個就白府那邊的話那個震動可能會有一些問題就是說它土壤的那一個部分好像比較鬆軟一些那這個部分可能要請廠商自己去做一些評估這樣子那個是誰做出的調查這個"},{"start":7552.542,"end":7569.794,"text":"是國客位嗎廠商對於所有每一塊基地是不是適合他的所有的廠房跟機械設備的承載他會做適當的評估這個部分其實百普一直有跟這個相關需求的廠商來做建議看能不能納入確實也在評估"},{"start":7571.315,"end":7591.899,"text":"所以白虎也是平估的这个场子之一继续讨论这个AI人才培育这个国家会你们预估2028有35万对不对你们报告我看经济部报告说已经培养了10万人才"},{"start":7592.881,"end":7608.461,"text":"那人才有包括研究包括開發也包括這個應用人才所以這個缺口你確定這個可以在2028把它補足嗎而且這個人才35萬會不會太少了一點"},{"start":7609.571,"end":7636.978,"text":"那個主委因為我們其實預估2040年是50啦那2028年缺口35那35其實有分兩個部分一個就是說智慧應用這個部分那另外一個就是關鍵技術那根據那個速發部的調查在那個下面那一個那個叫做數位記憶盤這個部分來講的話每一年大概會需求大概3000到4000左右所以整個加起來的話在那個智慧應用這邊的話我們"},{"start":7637.898,"end":7654.877,"text":"预估 粗略的预估大概需要15万那中间的那一个关键技术这一块的话也是大概15万左右各单位包括这个国贸也包括经济部包括这个国贸也包括这个速发部各单位都提出这个人才培育的这个相关政策"},{"start":7655.751,"end":7670.71,"text":"要整合的應該是國發會而且整合出來之後你對各部會在執行的狀況你要有一定的管考包括會不會真的機械需求跟你培養出的人才沒有辦法match這是一個問題"},{"start":7672.577,"end":7693.788,"text":"这个我们都有持续的在做管考那同时我们也会依照那个速发部给予的那个AI人才数字是很漂亮但是是不是符合产业界的需求这个我们也会跟对我们也会跟工协会讨论另外那个高阶的AI人才这个招募的问题"},{"start":7694.678,"end":7721.312,"text":"你看這個你們的國會的報告裡面跟這個包括未來三年重點人才調查跟推估還有數位經濟的這個服務產業報告這些你看看這個政府相關的這些AI的發展這個能力已經到了很吃緊那你未來這個高階的AI人才這個怎麼樣對產業界的核心需求能夠對應"},{"start":7723.033,"end":7739.898,"text":"這個國會有那麼更具體的說明一下就這個部分來講的話我們分兩塊一個是國內跟國外那國內這一塊的話我們會希望就是說利用教育部的系統尤其是在那一個大學這一塊那我們希望大學這一塊的話能夠"},{"start":7740.959,"end":7761.078,"text":"能够提供一些比如说像AI跨域的人才这个部分那在那个国外揽财这一个部分的话其实我们也跟很多部会在做协作比如说像教育部教育部他自己本身就有一个您提到国外揽财我就继续问你这个外国专业人才6000人当然今年是"},{"start":7762.94,"end":7782.712,"text":"達到多少 達到5700那你另外協助這個對接計畫這對接計畫你們要有1000人的這個目標就一個都沒有對接計畫這個部分的話我們113年的話有跟那一個部分國外的那個專業人士聘僱許可一個都沒有掛鈴"},{"start":7785.509,"end":7797.493,"text":"你目標是要一個協助國際人才對接我國產業跟實習計畫1000人的目標所以國際人才沒有辦法進來你看你是零我們這一部分還是有提供一些相關的一些服務為什麼會掛零我對接產業的需求"},{"start":7800.968,"end":7820.017,"text":"對啊 你目標一千人不可能說一個都沒有一個都沒有原因到底是是因為我們這個工項的計畫經費有被刪減不過我們還是有在天然台灣這邊對於產業的一個需求我們有提供相關的服務如果他們需要人才我們會協助來延攬"},{"start":7823.12,"end":7846.696,"text":"好 另外這個比較中小微企業要怎麼樣做這個數位轉型我這個一定要提供足夠的誘因那補助 當然政府要協助補助那這個目前預算編列21是編列在中企署是編列在三發署是中企署還是三發署好 請我們有個別的經費"},{"start":7848.667,"end":7876.946,"text":"三发署也有中信署也有我大概统计了一下整体的经费大概是20亿是不是20亿是总和那是总和对那目标是2万家那当然受理的状况不错大概有1万7千多家那明年呢明年这个计划是不是会再持续下去会持续事实上我们也利用了那个特别预算的部分事实上也会有加码"},{"start":7877.932,"end":7903.171,"text":"你看到這個傳統產業或中小型企業這個數位的轉型跟AI的這個人才培育很重要你看這個股票市場到三萬將近三萬點那一半的指數都是這個AI跟半導體貢獻的那個傳產包括石化鋼鐵 扣件等等這個都比過去一萬二的時候這個股價還要更低"},{"start":7905.535,"end":7918.565,"text":"所以比方說你這個產業發展是失衡的所以如果萬一發生有人說的什麼AI泡沫化或半導體需求這個過硬太多造成我們競爭力這樣沒有關係了我很快"},{"start":7925.283,"end":7951.463,"text":"這個怎麼樣把這個中小微企業跟這個傳統產業的AI跟這個數位轉型能夠做好這很重要是否則他們永遠停滯在過去的那種競爭力根本沒有辦法提升嘛是 這就是我們政策推動的最主要的主軸我看不出有那個強力的資源跟協助或者預算的協助有啦 如果"},{"start":7952.744,"end":7975.102,"text":"如果是个别厂商他的升级转型的话他只要提出一些看法我们甚至以后如果加上他买新的一些AI相关的设备的话其实我觉得执行面你们来做预算面你们来编但是整个国家战略计划怎么样中小微或者传统产业再生计划这应该是国会会来主政"},{"start":7975.815,"end":7999.229,"text":"提出一个比较全面的思维然后你在下达各个战术给各部会教育部 科技部执行我们是会执行落实的一定要重视这个问题是谢谢谢谢接下来我们请谢一峰委员请做询答"},{"start":8001.727,"end":8019.151,"text":"所以我說我們經濟文化很溫和的來 信任委員請我想要請工部長還有葉主委葉主委"},{"start":8023.803,"end":8047.248,"text":"我先就教你們 你們兩個昨天很硬對不對在那個政大金融演訓院你們說怎樣 沒有台灣病是不是經濟學人 你們剛經濟學人嘛 對不對你們兩個說沒有台灣病啊 是不是我是說台灣的經濟發展不錯 他應該是一個模範生"},{"start":8049.359,"end":8075.655,"text":"台灣的經濟沒有生病所以你否認你延遲批判經濟學人指稱我們有台灣Disease對不對沒有這個東西台灣Disease沒有台灣沒有病沒有病那他提到的是我們的匯率長期的被就是低估他認為我們應該要升值嗎你覺得"},{"start":8080.441,"end":8091.595,"text":"他的意思好像是這樣子但是我不曉得他真正的意思他的意思是這樣所以你認為台灣的產業現在還是以出口為導向"},{"start":8093.476,"end":8119.637,"text":"還是我們應該要發展內需型的產業以台灣的市場有沒有辦法發展內需型的產業出口為導向是對的所以未來台灣還是要走出口為導向的這樣子一個國際市場為主沒有錯國際市場為主對不對所以你認為台幣合理的匯率區間是什麼"},{"start":8120.799,"end":8132.348,"text":"我沒有辦法認定 這個是市場來決定的你現在是經濟部長啊國防組委站在你旁邊 你們兩個怎麼那麼硬你們現在就講啊台灣以出口為導向合理的匯率區間是什麼我們沒有操縱匯率嘛但是你以經濟部長的身份而言你要講啊"},{"start":8148.918,"end":8162.055,"text":"匯率匯率不好啦那個因為央行的組織我不好在這邊沒有這跟他沒有關係你講你的他講他的你講的他也不一定會照做啊是不是"},{"start":8163.116,"end":8178.992,"text":"你為什麼不講因為匯率來講的話事實上從過去到現在台灣的匯率說實在話相對於其他國家你現在是經濟部長喔你知道嗎你不是國發會主委喔等一下國發會主委要講他的喔你經濟部長要講經濟部長的喔"},{"start":8182.385,"end":8202.562,"text":"對 我是說以匯率來講的話台灣相對於其他國家相對是比較穩定的那其他國家事實上有上上下下的確是這樣但是也沒有因為其他國家上上下下影響到說台灣在國際間這個出口事實上表現很好的這個情形對 所以"},{"start":8203.473,"end":8225.816,"text":"事實上顯然匯率它不是單一因素可以主導這個出口的好壞就好像我們今天是出口好是因為AI這個情勢大但是對於傳產而言匯率事實上關係不大你說的是AI 半導體他們不會受到就是說第一個他們公司大他們甚至於海外的避險多"},{"start":8226.957,"end":8255.326,"text":"但是對於傳產中小企業而言匯率對於他們來講就非常的重要所以這一直是傳產以及我們中小企業長期以來對於我們匯率這是經濟部長要去對央行提出的要求嘛 對不對所以我在央行理監事會我是希望我一直要求就是說要維持匯率的穩定因為你波動太大的話它報價都沒有辦法報"},{"start":8257.017,"end":8280.869,"text":"一下子漲太多一下子跌下來那這樣的話報價沒有辦法報這個生意也沒有辦法造尤其是以中小為企業以製造業為主的話這樣是不好那七大工業國他們也說就是說基本上政府是不應該干預匯率的但是如果因為匯率波動太大的情況之下這是排除的這是可以介入的"},{"start":8282.202,"end":8299.306,"text":"那我也表達對我也表達好那我們問一下葉主委啊葉主委你在你有參加央行理事會嗎我沒有你沒有是不是所以你對匯率欸你昨天不是說了嗎台灣沒有沒有那個啊沒有經濟學所說的那個Taiwanese disease"},{"start":8299.366,"end":8328.313,"text":"因为其实经济学人有一个很大的一个他可能没有考虑到就是说其实我们的出口的那个结构在三四十年前跟现在的出口结构其实完全不一样那你假如说拿三四十年前的那个论点要适用到现在其实有一点点不是那么合适啦我的感觉是不是那么合适那现在我们的整个出口的那一个那个品项啊产品啊其实是比较属于特殊性比较高的就是说其他国家生产不出来的"},{"start":8328.803,"end":8347.052,"text":"那傳產裡面也有特殊性高的這個部分嗎我是說你不能夠以半導體來講那傳產中小企業它並沒有所謂的特殊性的問題尤其是我們目前的這個機械以及就是我們現在的這些傳產的這個裡面"},{"start":8350.254,"end":8368.966,"text":"怎麼樣子紡織業而言你怎麼樣子有就是說就是除了匯率以外還有其他的替代性因為跟委員報告我們台灣在三四年前其實大部分集中在傳產那經由這三四年之後的話我們其實半導體相對的比重比傳產多一些"},{"start":8369.426,"end":8386.02,"text":"那即使是在傳產的話也有一些產業其實它有在經過一些產業升級譬如說像紡織紡織的話它有一些就開始去用一些環保的素材像以前譬如說像在FIFA的時候的話他們那些運動服其實都是我們做的"},{"start":8386.38,"end":8401.08,"text":"所以其實類似這樣一個獨特性的產品其實不會因為匯率的差異性而會影響到它的出口同時很多跨國的企業其實它本身都有在做避險所以另外一個就是說在結構上面來講的話你講的會不會是大型"},{"start":8402.162,"end":8426.467,"text":"第一個就是我們的外匯市場裡面的結構裡面的Player其實成分都已經跟三四十年不一樣也就是說廠商拿到錢不見得直接把它換成台幣它有可能存在國外的戶頭或者是說他直接去買美元買美債去做避險所以你可以看到說最近這幾年那個台幣通常持穩在一部分的一個區間有一部分原因是因為這樣子"},{"start":8427.347,"end":8449.855,"text":"那你再去看我们那个整个外汇市场的那个player的话其实你去看真的是从贸易方面去为主进入到那个汇率市场的话其实比率相当的比较少一些大部分都是国际的资金的流动所以那个部分其实对于我们的汇率的影响是比较大一点但假如说"},{"start":8451.107,"end":8476.403,"text":"經濟學人認為是我們出口然後是因為匯率然後導致出口這個連結關係相對比較沒那麼明顯我的意思這樣子你是認為說匯率所導致的應該不是因為說我們的出口會成長這你認為不是因為匯率的關係是所以是因為我們產品的這個有關係尤其是像AI這一塊因為他其實別人沒有辦法生產那就只有我能提供的話那你匯率高低對我來講沒有"},{"start":8476.903,"end":8503.28,"text":"那我 对啊 你都还是回到半导体啊你们两个都还是在半导体啊你们还是要关注传产但那个传产这个部分其实有啦因为有一些传产在最近其实都已经在做一些AI的一些转型好 那我再来这也是你们两个的议题啦就是说今年六月的时候我们所谓的就是要培育AI的人才就是在国内的大学或硕士毕业生是一加二嘛"},{"start":8503.76,"end":8526.575,"text":"那東南亞的那個外籍生是2加4嘛那這個部分是不是你們還會繼續做2加4那個部分我們會跟教育部合作變成2加22加2新型障礙專班還會持續做就是橋外生的部分是2加2"},{"start":8528.612,"end":8541.417,"text":"對 僑外生來 2加2沒有錯對 外籍生嘛然後東南亞的外籍生是2加2是不是對 一樣是2加2然後那個1加2的方案的話就不做了是不是1加2是我們國內的對 國內的部分的我們還會持續推動也會持續推動"},{"start":8545.758,"end":8564.728,"text":"所以都會持續推動嗎所以未來這個就是我們的一家沒有因為換部長所以怎樣那個國發會就人在培訓還是會持續只是說資源稍微做一個整合就是說原來是2加4好像進一步要自己做那現在我們就是"},{"start":8565.388,"end":8579.72,"text":"用2加4是經營部要自己做我們現在變成2加2事實上跟教育部事實上是合作那是有什麼樣的改變你能不能說明一下部長2加2就是說"},{"start":8581.95,"end":8609.891,"text":"这个学生在国外他念了两年书以后到台湾来再念两年书那我们给他一些奖学金然后给生活费但是他要在我们台湾工作两年工作两年对好那一加二呢会做什么改变吗一加二是台湾的学生那个毕业以后受训一年那一样是会留在那个单位两年这样子"},{"start":8610.239,"end":8622.793,"text":"就是那那個企業要先給他錢嗎當初好像是說企業先給他錢現在呢是我們政府會付這一個部分我們政府先給他錢然後企業後付是不是對對對"},{"start":8624.645,"end":8646.198,"text":"是不是所以所以這個部分也會維持好謝謝那我想要請問這是剛才好多位委員也有提到的就是我們現在就是速發部所講的我們的這個AI人才面臨的就是數量不足跟需求不符就是"},{"start":8647.058,"end":8673.241,"text":"現在他們要的就是馬上可以上手的這個AI人才但是我們目前到底我們計畫在推動多久以後才能給予這樣子產業所需求的人才其實我也有去看過我們產發署以及技術師他們所導入的就是經濟部所導入的AI的那個就是供應的那個生產鏈AI導入的生產鏈"},{"start":8673.982,"end":8695.348,"text":"但是我發現它非常高的強度仰賴就是說你要去一直給予AI的電腦要在資料庫Beta DES裡面一直要給予他們不同產業別的數據當然汽車零組件的有汽車零組件的數據工具機的有工具機的"},{"start":8698.068,"end":8716.994,"text":"紡織業有紡織業的數據那這種數據的培養需要一段期間那你們到底什麼時候我們的資料庫才能夠建就是說整建完畢然後整個可以協助企業因為現在企業人才已經進到這裡了"},{"start":8718.274,"end":8738.562,"text":"可是我們其實需要的是一個怎麼樣子把這個Database可以建立然後對於這個中小企業你真的能夠給予協助還有傳產能夠給予協助那這個人才以及這個資料庫才有辦法回到企業這個東西需要多久"},{"start":8740.048,"end":8754.96,"text":"因为不同的企业或不同的产业实际上它对AI的需求有些不太一样有些企业它事实上它本身AI程度已经很高了所以我们培训它或者是给它协助的就会比较中高阶的"},{"start":8755.42,"end":8778.495,"text":"但是有一些企业基本上还没有导入AI那我们给他就是一些初级的那他们的人员授训也是比较初阶的那这个部分等到满足如果有下一步的需要的时候他要进阶到中阶或高阶那我们会给他额外的再加码再做训练是一步一脚印的这样的情况那所以我就说了你们现在这个iPad到底"},{"start":8779.605,"end":8806.622,"text":"有什麼作用你們發揮的作用如何IPS基本上是是給數位發展部來就是說給一個什麼專業的人才認證但是到了這些專業人才認證到了跨產業的這個領域裡面的時候到底有沒有發揮作用是IPS基本上它是一個訓考用一個三者合一的一個平台那"},{"start":8807.402,"end":8833.959,"text":"除了我们经济部之外教育部也有参加劳动部也有参加就是说通过训练完以后一个认证机制这个认证机制怎么样跟产业界做结合甚至于这个班要开出来的时候我们都会去问这个产业工协会他们觉得有需要这样的这些AI的规划师设计师以后我们来开这个班然后说过减定的机制通过以后那他们也愿意训练如果在职的甚至于他还给奖励金"},{"start":8834.679,"end":8846.764,"text":"而且甚至可以加加薪就是鼓勵他們員工來受這樣的一個訓練所以它就是一個訓考用結合起來的一個機制我最後還有一個問題"},{"start":8848.615,"end":8869.399,"text":"我覺得就是這個是我們看到這是英國獨立媒體他所發布的全球的AI國力的排行裡面我想請問為什麼我們又你看新加坡是第三名為什麼我們又是21名工部長"},{"start":8875.131,"end":8889.99,"text":"我們的半導體我們的出口比新加坡強這麼多為什麼我們的AI排名新加坡是第三名我們竟然是21名因為我們是生產AI的伺服器還有半導體是非常強"},{"start":8891.272,"end":8908.708,"text":"但是這個算力的建造還有這個應用我們就是要加強現在我們AI新時代就是在做這樣的事情不是 是你為什麼我們在這個軟體的應用上面會這麼差就是希望經濟部 國發會還有國科會等等"},{"start":8912.691,"end":8933.234,"text":"你們共同來協助產業導入嘛不能說我們只有半導體強他們需要政府的協助低我們就給予他們協助低但是其實我們忽略了AI未來要應用AI不會泡沫化最重要的原因是在應用嘛 是不是"},{"start":8935.147,"end":8954.366,"text":"是在應用嘛那你的應用一定要導入所有的傳產所有的機械業所有的中小微企業裡面啊 是不是對 現在就是在做這樣的事情所以我希望政府能夠在不同的產業別都能夠導入那"},{"start":8956.087,"end":8974.154,"text":"不要讓我們的AI 我們竟然是半導體為主而且我們AI的生產是全世界冠軍那甚至現在連川普總統都認為我們就是囊括了所有的這個晶片的產量"},{"start":8974.614,"end":9002.233,"text":"那既然我們有這麼強的時候我們竟然沒有辦法讓我們的傳產我們的中小微企業都能夠享受到我們在AI發展的這個優勢那這個紅利現在沒有外溢到我們中小企業沒有外溢到我們的傳產裡面是不是所以我們現在就是要努力什麼時候可以你預計啊 目標啊什麼時候超越新加坡"},{"start":9005.592,"end":9033.231,"text":"主席 什麼時候我們只能說我們加油 我們努力這個會錄音喔 什麼時候超越新加坡你要有信心啊 葉主委有信心你講葉主委你講 你們兩個主委很硬啊快點講這個真的需要努力啦什麼時候超越新加坡還是努力什麼時候啊 目標盡量縮短"},{"start":9034.376,"end":9060.489,"text":"縮短什麼時候 一年一年好不好一年有沒有辦法很難啊好 加油請我們的這個官員不要在上面嬉笑好 兩年可以嗎兩年可以嗎 超越新加坡可不可以朝這個方向趕快去努力好 謝謝"},{"start":9067.54,"end":9090.22,"text":"好 接下来我们请局副委员谢谢五分钟 谢谢谢谢主席有请我们经济部龚部长国客会副组委还有我们教育部朱长士我们请三位 谢谢许万豪"},{"start":9091.775,"end":9105.773,"text":"部長副主委 次長好我想這個我們行政院也正式宣布了這個大南方的大南方新矽谷的一個S狼帶那當然南高坪是重中之重的一個發展重點"},{"start":9106.574,"end":9123.628,"text":"那我們這個行政院主委院長這個圖面上我們包含鞏部長當時擔任行政院秘書長的時候有來屏東參加台積電半導體供應鏈進駐屏東科學園區的一個活動那我想這個屏東不管是水電土地"},{"start":9124.488,"end":9144.081,"text":"這些相關的資源都非常的豐沛那我想也是未來能夠發展這個高科技產業很重要的一個縣市那這個部分我想這個部分我們會努力來加強但是也需要我們中央部會的大力支持那首先我們請教我們副主委我們目前屏東科學園區招商的狀況目前進度到哪裡"},{"start":9145.021,"end":9168.995,"text":"目前屏東科學園區所有公共城的部分都在如期的進行當中那廠商的部分進駐也有好幾家廠商已經核准進駐那目前剛剛委員所提到的這個供應鏈的這個也已經有三家廠商已經在進行申請入區的程序或者已經獲核准後面還有好幾家那所以目前的進度應該都是照整個原來科學園區發展的進度在進行 以上"},{"start":9169.682,"end":9186.268,"text":"我想我們這個南高屏的這個發展的一個生活模式也好產業發展模式也好是緊密相連所以在這個整個未來包含小港機場這個能夠擴大包含我們未來有高鐵要南沿屏東我們有高屏二塊的動工跟我們"},{"start":9188.268,"end":9203.976,"text":"我們的那個平南快速道路的陸續的一個進度我想未來交通的建設改善之後我們也希望引進更多的一個高科技產業那尤其我們希望我們在地的子弟能夠在地就業在地學習那除了這個之外"},{"start":9204.996,"end":9223.951,"text":"我們當然知道目前我們這個南科的產值已經超越中科跟主科那除了這個屏東科學園園區之外我們也期待屏中就是我們在這個未來南周勘定我們有很多的台塘土地有沒有計有沒有計劃能夠再做第二座的科學園區的一個規劃跟我們報告在"},{"start":9225.697,"end":9236.875,"text":"不管是在大南方信息股或者是桃竹苗信息股裡面都有相關的潛在的產業用地在做適當的一個準備但是最後還是要回歸所有科學人去回歸到產業的需求我們會做適當的評估"},{"start":9238.767,"end":9259.556,"text":"副主任我想沒有先規劃就來不及部署我想現在很多我們的很多廠商也都在找地你不給他適合的用地他當然不可能會進駐屏東我們應該有做這樣的一個超前部署的一個打算那除了這個產業的規劃之外更重要就是一個高科技人才的一個培育那目前我知道教育部跟國科會"},{"start":9260.789,"end":9283.793,"text":"有核定了这个争取包含阳明交通成大台北科技大学跟冯甲大学有做一个相关的一个太空工程的一个研究所那我们最近我们国科会也同意在我们屏东的九鹏我们要为了要设立一个太空中心那我们品科大是一个很好的一个发展的一个大学院校教育部门能不能提前来规划做这样的人才的培育"},{"start":9285.514,"end":9308.844,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們已經有連結平哥大跟屏東大學透過大手吸小手的方式希望跟在地的高中跟普高跟技高一起建立一些科普基地甚至我們可以針對我們重要的像AI或是像我們機器人智慧製造這個部分來做一些課程跟人才培育的規劃"},{"start":9310.649,"end":9337.572,"text":"次長我想這個還是必須要從小扎根所以我們期待從這個國小開始就是有一些AI教育的一個融合是幫我們自己的老師也要精進然後包含相關的設備到位還有我們一些科展競賽的一個推動我想要讓小孩子從小接觸這樣的環境讓他們知道說這個我們未來屏東有這樣的一個產業發展我想這是一個很好的一個契機這可不可以繼續來努力這一塊好"},{"start":9338.272,"end":9347.877,"text":"謝謝委員指導我們現在就是希望說先以在地的高中作為基地那向下去連結國中小那向上是由大學這個部分投注"},{"start":9348.385,"end":9370.466,"text":"实作的一些场域跟师资一起来带动谢谢韦子我们会朝这方向来努力好我想最后请教我们龚部长部长我们在野党上个礼拜强行通过了这个光点的一个修法那我们国内六大环团发表了一个联合声明对于未来这样的一个加盐管制恐怕扼杀了所有一个绿能发展的一个进度"},{"start":9371.038,"end":9399.005,"text":"那我们过去有提到2050年我们的能源配比再生能源的比例要达到60到70%部长这个目标会不会受到影响短期间看起来是会受到影响就是那个时程上原来我们是希望就是再生能源发电占我们比例可以在明年11月达到20%那因为通常一个环境影响评估大概都是会到至少会一年到一到五年"},{"start":9399.905,"end":9421.819,"text":"最快的情况之下那显然应该会受到多少会受到一些影响部长我想这是一个很严重的问题绿电不应该被污名化那我们当然支持对于不法的业者减掉应该要严办但是对于合法业者的一个保障我想我们政府部门也应该要有这样的一个态度要不然未来什么人敢来到处大家现在都丢车在那里"},{"start":9422.999,"end":9438.05,"text":"看不到未來啦真的啦以後未來包含高科技產業你需要水需要電我們根本都跟不上這些進度未來怎麼辦部長能不能有一個比較SOP比較一個強制的一個合理的一個做法讓所有業者有所規範"},{"start":9439.301,"end":9460.292,"text":"是对因为现在法通过我们当然要按依法行政但是我们还是会希望把这个做一些分级如果看环平的这个程序我们会跟那个环境部来沟通一下是比较简易的不止环境部应该包含农业部包含农店渔店都应该要有一个相关的SOP让业者有所遵循"},{"start":9460.652,"end":9480.626,"text":"那你們也應該要嚴格監督不能讓不法業者有所不法的部分我們現在跟法務部已經有一個平臺合法的業者你應該要呼得緊合合盤嘛未來我們才有綠電可以用嘛好一起來努力好不好好謝謝好非常謝謝接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢答"},{"start":9493.726,"end":9496.681,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請速發部我們請速發部"},{"start":9510.655,"end":9526.095,"text":"市長之前在質詢的時候我揭發了我們的速發部全額補助給我們的國家自動安全研究院為了醫療攻防演練OT場域建置的標案裡面有違法的履約有不實的驗收"},{"start":9528.108,"end":9551.38,"text":"這個補助的經費來源 雖然上一次被選的時候 部長一直請國家自動安全研究院的院長代答我也都尊重都讓院長答但是部長應該要對這件事情有所了解 特別是這件事情非常非常的嚴重因為前是你們速發部從台灣資安卓越深耕"},{"start":9552.419,"end":9571.177,"text":"這個前瞻基礎建設計畫裡面編6.5億裡面的經費來的這不是資安院自己處理就可以了我上次在尋答的過程當中面對部長也好面對院長也好我把整個履約不實的過程我把它全部都談出來了12月25號辦驗收的時候"},{"start":9574.673,"end":9602.511,"text":"那個時候簽程裡面的內容就記載不實了東西是舊的但是拿假的新品證明書出來東西是舊的拿納稅的錢結果履約的時候拿舊的東西結果拿假的新品證明書出來這件事情上次質詢的時候全部都質詢完了我那時候覺得很狐疑因為東西是舊的"},{"start":9605.041,"end":9632.074,"text":"卻有新品證明書那個是用眼睛看就知道了 不用鑑定一看就知道這東西是古的啦卻有假的新品證明書好 再往下看那天院長我質詢的時候 因為啊我揭發完了以後啊洪祈昌啊發聲明罵我說我不實指控新潮流的大佬很厲害"},{"start":9635.205,"end":9663.454,"text":"造假驗收還發聲明罵我說我不實指控既然有人說我不實指控啊那我當然要請教治安院治安院證實兩次驗收繳的都是舊的還拿新品證明書要蒙混過關我接下來發生到發現讓我更覺得離譜的事情來請請市長看一下這個公文"},{"start":9665.948,"end":9690.337,"text":"這是你們的公文裡面講因為12月31號確認東西是舊的還拿假的新品證明書要求廠商1月6號前完成改正現在的問題是12月31號發文出去要求廠商1月6號前完成改正你知不知道廠商有可能在1月6號前完成改正嗎警司長"},{"start":9698.018,"end":9717.484,"text":"我個人真的不知道他們能不能夠完成改正你覺得治安院知不知道訴發部知不知道我認為訴發部應該不知道我今天質詢的重點就是要跟次長報告訴發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道"},{"start":9718.666,"end":9742.504,"text":"我再說一次速發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道不可能在1月6號完成改正次長你現在露出了困惑的表情說我怎麼敢這麼斬釘截鐵的說速發部的同仁從頭到尾都知道請看下一張一樣國家資通安全研究院在12月31號同一天喔"},{"start":9744.582,"end":9773.536,"text":"上一個函是說1月6號要完成改正嘛同一天發函給速發部發函給速發部啊 說什麼說啊我們要辦經費的保留因為上一個年度的經費沒有用完要繼續挪到下一個年度 要辦保留嘛在保留函裡面就已經講了說要到3月31號東西才交得出來"},{"start":9776.417,"end":9799.606,"text":"左下角這個是公文公文上面寫得很清楚要3月31號東西才交得出來代表什麼書發布的人早就知道1月6號前是不可能改正完成的資通安全研究院的人也知道不可能1月6號改正完成最快也要3月31號"},{"start":9801.243,"end":9814.594,"text":"因為沒有貨嘛他要3月31號東西才交得出來嘛所以我說速發布的人3月31早就知道3月31號東西才交得出來理由是在公文裡面白紙黑字就已經這樣寫了膽大妄為膽大妄為從頭到尾上下交相賊明明知道不可能"},{"start":9830.066,"end":9859.371,"text":"在那個時間完成還在裝忙啊裝忙啊設假的daylight你要補正完成喔早就知道他絕對沒辦法補正完成但沒有關係我們提供很貼心的服務什麼貼心的服務我早就知道你沒有辦法補正完成了我早就知道這個廠商在胡搞瞎搞了但是啊"},{"start":9860.479,"end":9886.553,"text":"國家資通安全研究院還很貼心的趕快跟他申請跟速發部說經費要保留市長你現在聽懂了嗎是你聽懂了嗎好我現在的問題來了上一次部長跟我說該怎麼辦法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦"},{"start":9888.376,"end":9917.048,"text":"法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦結果你們回給我喊的內容我現在看到的是第一個沒有懲處為什麼不懲處因為現在廠商在外面放話講得很大聲我們從頭到尾這樣子搞國家資通安全研究院的人都知道他們從頭到尾都知道我們要這樣搞都喬好了啦大家配合演一場戲"},{"start":9919.073,"end":9945.294,"text":"大家配合演一場戲啊結果沒有想到會被揭發這樣要怎麼懲處大家都講好了啊第二個也沒有解約第三個也沒有停權第四個也沒有移眾法辦我們的訴發部到底怎麼了我們的訴發部到底怎麼了"},{"start":9947.625,"end":9975.425,"text":"面對這個違法的事情只差沒有跪下去而已啊只差沒有跪下去而已啊結果我們的部長在國會殿堂給我的承諾說依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦到目前為止我們有看到啊跟委員報告我們內部確實已經在進行調查那也在進行這個簽辦的程序當中還要多久"},{"start":9977.907,"end":10005.424,"text":"還要多久違法事證如此明確在國會殿堂備詢的時候都承認了沒關係 還要多久我繼續等下去我們應該在12月初的時候12月初12月初結果會出來第二個主席在案例 我尊重時間請以書面回覆我為什麼"},{"start":10006.704,"end":10027.637,"text":"明明就知道沒有東西了明明就知道1月6號不可能完成補正了還上下交鄉賊啊裝說我們叫他1月6號以前完成改正啊在同一天就知道他不可能完成改正還跟速發部發公函一樣保留款"},{"start":10031.758,"end":10045.386,"text":"請你們書面回覆我 好好解釋 好好解釋這是什麼情況 可以嗎可以喔 好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員 次長請回座我們接下來請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":10057.674,"end":10086.776,"text":"好謝謝主席有請國發會還有竹科等一下國科會副主委謝謝還有國發會請國發會葉主委然後請國科會蘇副主委謝謝好兩位時間我時間有限我就先快速說一下雖然大家今天談AI人才但我其實想要拜託兩位長官一起看見當我們在發展半導體跟科技大導的同時"},{"start":10087.637,"end":10105.172,"text":"我們在地方上所看見的困境那跟國發會有關主要是因為其實國發會主導台灣的地方創生業務非常多年那未來我相信你們也會有相關計畫所以我等一下講的要拜託國發會一起承擔那當然其實主要的業務是在國科會的管理局科學園區管理局怎麼說呢"},{"start":10106.513,"end":10133.835,"text":"今年新的國科會主委上任的時候他就承諾說園區未來會朝向地密度開發同時我們要兼顧生態文化社區跟教育我認為主委真的非常明白在現在的科學園區可能已經產生了困境我相信主席你也非常清楚也就是當科技走在前面可是當地方的一二級產業萎縮在地的文化傳承斷層甚至有教育醫療交通的公共服務不足"},{"start":10134.435,"end":10153.962,"text":"導致於鄉村人口外移貧富差距擴大也就是大家認為當科技狂奔但是非常多地方的事情就停留在原地沒有積極前進我知道竹科管理局或者是國發會一直都希望透過地方創生或是連結地方團體我們協助更多年輕人他回到家鄉回到新竹我們以新竹為例"},{"start":10154.582,"end":10168.976,"text":"他不見得要投入科技產業對嗎他可以回到農村他可以做文化創生他可以做更多創新的服務在園區裡頭那所以呢我今天其實想要請教目前我們看到其實在以竹科為例"},{"start":10169.817,"end":10182.364,"text":"在管理局的協助底下你們跟清華大學還有同業工會合作你們已經促進了30多家企業發展了70多項ESG專案這個事情我要非常感謝你們也要給你們鼓勵謝謝你們協助這些園區的產業負起社會責任協助在地的產業也好文化團隊或者是相關教育團隊地方創生團隊尤其是國發會這邊"},{"start":10194.651,"end":10222.405,"text":"所以我想要問未來我們有沒有更完整的計畫因為現在的這些專案都是有一點單一有一點破碎但是沒有一個整體的政策視野積極的協助地方更容易串接到地方的科技產業然後其實國發會這邊因為你們在協助地方創生那過去呢前面幾任主委都非常要求所謂的產值那假設在要求產值的政策視野底下我們現在如何做一個調整"},{"start":10223.385,"end":10231.53,"text":"因為我認為我們以幾個成功的地方創生為例關鍵不是產值而是當所有中央的資源沒有辦法第一時間"},{"start":10233.625,"end":10257.347,"text":"嚇到地方的時候其實地方自己產生的韌性自己產生的能量自己營運了一些可能性在你們前期在國發會前期的協助底下所以合起來講我今天不舉特別案例但是我相信主委跟管理局這邊都非常清楚我在說有哪些成功的案例所以未來我是不是可以持續拜託國發會這邊或者是管理局這邊積極協助我們就以大新竹地區為例"},{"start":10258.388,"end":10281.043,"text":"当一个典范当一个楷模我们来发展一个平台如何透过大学然后大学的左边可能是企业大学的右边是地方地方我刚刚讲各式各样的团队各式各样的小型企业或者是农民然后嫁接到园区这边那以大学为一个平台去发展各式各样的辅导专案也好然后大家就对接起来"},{"start":10281.223,"end":10296.08,"text":"让整个园区科学园区的发展不会只重科技而忽略地方产业忽略地方文化可不可以请你们简单回应一下对谢谢委员就这个部分来讲的话我们会也会往这个方向走就是说以大学为一个平台然后"},{"start":10297.36,"end":10318.388,"text":"嘗試去平衡產業跟那個生態然後未來我們也會慢慢調整就是說我們產值可能會是一個參考啦不會是一個對因為以產值為參考的狀況確實在這幾年看起來其實會讓地方的地方創生團隊會有一點辛苦啦當然細節我們可以再聊我們可以再來討論那園區管理局這邊要不要簡單回應一下"},{"start":10319.568,"end":10344.809,"text":"是 謝謝委員知道那國科會所下的三個園區管理局在很多的縣市都有相關的園區那剛剛所提到的包含結合廠商的ESG或者是大學的USR 企業的CSR這些我們都會一起結合來共同的來發展那包含透過園區工會透過園區管理局的產學合作機制這個都我們會持續來進行那讓地方的產業能夠發揮價值"},{"start":10345.99,"end":10367.912,"text":"好因为这边我希望是更有系统性的那因为今天时间有限了后续我们办公室也会来拜托国发会这边我们协助把地方创生团队的声音放进来然后在大学跟产业界的合作然后透过管理局这边我们形塑一个好的role model因为我要讲新的园区正在形成当中如果新竹园区可以变成一个好的role model我认为对于"},{"start":10368.613,"end":10389.173,"text":"想要回到鄉村裡面 做更多自己在意的事情 自己喜歡的事情不管是文化面 教育面 農業面 產業面它都可以讓這個園區的生態是更完整的 更平衡的 好不好好 謝謝兩位 謝謝 也謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員主委請回 謝謝我們接下來請葉元之委員"},{"start":10400.522,"end":10407.946,"text":"主席麻煩請經濟部請經濟部秋球會署長謝謝那個國發會請國發會葉主委謝謝國科會一小請國科會的蘇副主委謝謝"},{"start":10424.298,"end":10443.753,"text":"好那個我們都知道說AI現在如果要投入那種鮮豔的成本其實需要非常多的資金那今天我們主題是在講人才其實人才跟資金是非常息息相關如果新創公司或研究AI公司不到沒有資金的話根本沒辦法留住人才這三位應該都同意嘛對不對但我現在"},{"start":10444.654,"end":10462.327,"text":"有蠻多研究AI的公司跟我反映一件事情他說現在有出現那種顧問顧問會去找他們跟他們說政府其實有很多有關於AI的補助可以去申請第一個他是因為顧問來找他他們才知道"},{"start":10463.257,"end":10483.665,"text":"然後顧問跟他們講之後他們開始去查相關的計畫結果有的計畫比如說要嘛就是申請的期限快來不及了因為他必須要做一個計畫書才能夠符合那個補助的標準然後要嘛就是他們覺得那個計畫的內容比較不符合業界的需求我現在想請教一下我們現在針對這一種"},{"start":10485.146,"end":10494.117,"text":"AI公司的補助是到底是哪一個單位還是說每一個部會都有大家經濟部有嗎有相關的補助嗎是什麼樣的補助"},{"start":10496.172,"end":10514.394,"text":"補助企業如果說要導入AI或數位的轉型那我們就可以給他做一個是企業導入而已對 直接補助就既有的公司如果他針對某一個環節他要導入的話你可以補助對 比如說他要生產的或者說要客戶服務的然後導入AI那我們就可以來補助那國發會有嗎"},{"start":10516.309,"end":10526.496,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實前瞻計畫裡面會有我說國發會變在國發會裡面預算有沒有特定計畫的補助有嗎有有有是哪一種就是一個計畫型的補助計畫型的補助對對對針對哪一類的"},{"start":10531.176,"end":10546.207,"text":"應該是公務對 公務預算我不是說公務預算特別預算我講的是比如說像經濟部他說他針對企業裡面如果有特定業務導入AI他有補助那你們是補助哪一種類型"},{"start":10547.248,"end":10572.532,"text":"我們是補助跨部會的跨部對 跨部會還有你又是第一次答非所問沒關係那國科會國科會是補助研究案國科會主要針對科研的補助科研的部分但是對於廠商或新商那我請教一下如果是那一種就是自己公司投入很多研發經費然後要去發展AI的那種先驗計畫的就是他要做很多嘗試這一種的現在聽起來是沒有補助嘛"},{"start":10573.762,"end":10593.841,"text":"有 經濟部有補助是經濟部嗎 你剛剛就沒有講嘛你剛剛講的是說特定企業要導入AI對所以你看我現在把三個機關叫上來大家都講得支支吾吾的你們都講得支支吾吾那請問一般民間怎麼知道有這方面的補助所以可不可以請你們回去好好的這個想想看你的這個計畫怎麼推廣好不好"},{"start":10595.854,"end":10623.095,"text":"對不對 因為我剛剛舉的例子其實他是國內蠻大的我就不講哪一家啦其實是蠻有名的公司他們都不曉得欸所以等於是你們自己本身沒有去接觸人家嘛還是透過那種顧問我也不知道顧問是什麼顧問啦民間的顧問去跟他們講他們才知道這個你鎖定幾家對台灣發展AI有幫助的企業主動跟他們說我們這邊政府可以協助你們什麼應該不難吧"},{"start":10624.417,"end":10643.666,"text":"那個委員我再次強調啦藉這個機會宣導一下就是經濟部我們針對這個企業去做AI的技術的研發還有技術的導入我們都會提供補助那我們都知道有補助但是就不知道那個細節也不知道相關辦法所以很多企業都不曉得嘛我現在是請你們去宣導這個事情"},{"start":10646.201,"end":10667.391,"text":"至少比較大間的或者是比較前瞻或什麼你們也可以辦座談會或幹嘛的嘛多多的推廣嘛否則你政府的美意就這樣子很多人都用不到啊對台灣產業也是一種損失啊好再來還有一個我想請教一下這個看哪一位可以回答因為現在很多AI他們現在最怕就是處罰嘛"},{"start":10669.732,"end":10693.417,"text":"他要做那個模擬的訓練然後前一段時間不是才發生有新創公司因為他用了法學資料庫的資料所以就被告了那可是重刑耶被判4年啊7年這會造成寒蟬效應大家會不知所措啦請問一下政府單位對於就是模型訓練資料的使用的相關的學習規範什麼時候會出來啊這是屬於國科會的嗎"},{"start":10696.86,"end":10723.317,"text":"速發部的 速發部請問什麼時候會出來我們現在AI是在跟全世界賽跑我們主權語料庫現在已經在跟各部會協作當中那12月就會有第一版的發表你現在講的是你的主權語料庫嗎我講的是說它如果是用其他的資料庫它只是做訓練"},{"start":10725.127,"end":10739.636,"text":"訓練的部分其實要仰賴智慧財產權法的修法那你們現在有在跟相關機關推動這一塊嗎這個目前所以就擺爛啊這個就是很多業界擔心啊因為他們要去做訓練就很怕觸法嘛"},{"start":10741.344,"end":10759.743,"text":"我刚刚讲的案例是今年五月的事情委员这一部分因为是智慧财产局那边主管的法规不是啦今天主管AI当然是有一个主要的权责机关他发现这个是一个重要问题他就要去找智慧财产局跟他讲说这会影响到AI的发展"},{"start":10760.143,"end":10787.874,"text":"就共同推動而不是說問你們說那是他們他們就是他們大家推來推去那我們還說什麼AI那個就騙人的嗎這個趕快去處理委員這部分我們有跟制裁局那邊跟各專家也有在做推動什麼時候會有一個規範出來牛年馬月嗎大約是冬季嗎什麼時候我們在這個推動的這個方向應該在明年初會有一個明年初方向會出來好謝謝"},{"start":10791.777,"end":10800.321,"text":"謝謝葉雲芝委員主席請回我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在我們接下來請黃婕委員黃婕委員不在我們接下來請謝榮介委員"},{"start":10820.064,"end":10826.57,"text":"主席我請國發會請國發會葉主委委員好你好辛苦了 經濟沒中沒低主委我請教你你認為我們這個"},{"start":10847.336,"end":10858.847,"text":"AI 內閣這一年半以來到底是AI還是AI的AI啊AI喔不是不是 AI AI AI是AI喔台灣的AI經濟AI的內閣競爭力我請教你喔就是說"},{"start":10874.793,"end":10903.562,"text":"坦白說 我們九十輪輸了我們的靈魂政策跟我們的電的成本會影響到我們AI的競爭力會嘛這是一個很嚴肅的課題我講一個訴苦給你聽就是說 越南嘛 越南相信在這方面可能比我們差一點"},{"start":10905.421,"end":10913.865,"text":"我們剛好意很多華南的生產 他的競爭力他賺是從大陸買的 你知道嗎?華南伯伯你知不知道他從大陸買的 賺了多少錢?對 這要問經濟部寒碎啦 經濟部我們不知道 實在可憐"},{"start":10931.465,"end":10954.453,"text":"寒水齁 我人家買的電一套給我們台北 兩顆粒啊 兩顆粒我請教他們的時候 那麼發電太陽能 熱能 台灣人沒人反對的我的故鄉也沒人反對啊 但是沒到高雄搞起來的時候 我請問經濟的保障到"},{"start":10956.741,"end":10976.548,"text":"平時他跟我說 你要發展太陽能 你要給他們聽世界太陽能的介紹 身份多少你知不知道?主委你知不知道?世界太陽能的身份 多少?每個國家的介紹都不敢不敢嗎?像整個日本 兩顆七 一顆美國 一顆是一顆八"},{"start":10984.226,"end":11005.173,"text":"美國非核家園一套太陽能是2.1元印度一套是9元澳大利亞一套是1.4元巴西一套是1.4元沙烏地阿拉伯可能更嚴重一套是4.5元中國大陸一套是7.5元全世界平均一套電太陽能是1.4元"},{"start":11013.37,"end":11018.955,"text":"我們台灣 你知不知道幾人?四個多吧四個白痴 五個苦力我問你要怎麼AI?發電 發電 發電得完的人員所以林文靜是 我相信老總統他準備要調整了"},{"start":11038.308,"end":11049.876,"text":"AI 大家說 會去影響傳統商業來經濟部說什麼這次有關稅 說你企業要轉型啊我請教你AI 的發展包括機器人 包括大數據的計算起來包括超級電腦 這是不是要用大電是所以我們的競爭力減少不久啊尤其傳統商業面臨關稅的挑戰"},{"start":11068.186,"end":11093.653,"text":"你站在這個位置很重要你可以提供經濟部很多建議啊但是經濟部協議經濟部協議他們有算過說在二孔三孔年進展期是沒欠電啦他在說白痴你給我騙你五公堆去賠沒沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦他在說我騙你也在跟你騙啊那有受理啦有受理啦委員啊沒有來啦沒欠電那一堆多少啦你是說對不對這是身份嘛"},{"start":11099.372,"end":11110.581,"text":"所以所有的傳統三業 很多人說我小時候 我旁財 我跑外賣我中來是不是會叫AI出台 會不會你看是在一種行業 你如果說有做生計的時候我告訴你 都不會台灣的基金 薪水這麼多 三萬五百一大堆"},{"start":11127.059,"end":11156.366,"text":"坦白說AI就是全部台灣三業都完全升級的開始要專託包括國發會議員 經濟部所有政府各部門包括管理政府都要動起來讓我們的三業 傳統三業包括總業員 包括所有的人都接受AI接受AI的新科技"},{"start":11157.602,"end":11167.891,"text":"不用走AI 進入AI的世界你來利用AI做工具我跟你說 台灣就能擺脫假心碎的世界你有認同嗎 有啊 有有具體的做法嗎"},{"start":11174.98,"end":11188.717,"text":"古特的作法就是像我們經濟部現在有在發展說百工百業那種智慧化還有那個國科會也有在推廣所謂的全民智慧你問經濟部是保釋的啦 我沒騙你啦"},{"start":11190.427,"end":11211.937,"text":"國務卿 我要拜託你 你的演技是真的能夠讓我們國航 國機 百工百業甚至到最基層的變本社的情景園隆重也要善用AI的機器 善用AI的工具我告訴你 台灣比較有辦法褪變我們現在面臨的國際的挑戰是有夠嚴峻的所以這一點 本市長一定會跟你們談到的就是你沒辦法提出一個"},{"start":11219.898,"end":11227.36,"text":"就像剛才我講的國科會可以提出一個甘育的報告後續你們要怎麼做 會給予本社會是國科會委員我是國發會國發會啦國發會啦報告喔國發會啦因為你們是公認出來下面國保會就可以依存這個公認 我要說我幫你下去啦我來替你找啦"},{"start":11250.555,"end":11259.241,"text":"現在其實每一個報復都在做你一個月的時間給我嘛然後我來替你推動這個社群我收集我之前聽到的這個庶民他們說我想要進入AI的世界我沒辦法你只要說三項真真正正這個庶民要專門進入AI"},{"start":11276.721,"end":11302.497,"text":"我稍等要過來交給委員會 我要講 包括交給部今天交給部 我們有代表在這裡那可是真真正正 能讓台灣脫胎換骨鳳姐 我跟你講 只有我們這個電子的高端機我幫你保證 完全沒有競爭力謝謝你跟委員報告 我們那個國防會其實有人才躍升計畫那個方案 有 裡面都有寫說怎麼樣去做啦我們會齁 會給那個 給我嘛 好不好"},{"start":11306.257,"end":11310.378,"text":"謝鴻介委員 主委請回我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員謝謝主席我們是不是有請經濟部部長"},{"start":11336.55,"end":11340.652,"text":"請邱組長代理謝謝邱組長邱組長國科會副組委請國科會副組委蘇副組委謝謝好組長組長我根據是前幾天的報導經濟日報經濟部規劃要在2025年到2028年要投入29億元"},{"start":11364.485,"end":11370.898,"text":"那要推動所謂矽光子的國家隊那結合學研單位跟國內的一些廠商"},{"start":11371.516,"end":11399.54,"text":"那會聚焦在光晶片跟這個共封裝的光學元件CPU那我們知道矽光紙大概現在產業界非常的夯因為從AI的所需要的一個晶片那現在都朝向就是複合式堆疊的包括我們現在要說的CoreOS啦CorePass啦甚至叫做益智整合這樣的一些技術的一些研發但是看起來台灣在這方面"},{"start":11400.16,"end":11419.14,"text":"人才的培育是不足的这一点是对的吧是不是经济部先说明一下细光子部分就是比较熟悉我是不是请郭市长这边来回应你熟悉的直接上来谢谢委员的指教那有关细光子的部分我想"},{"start":11420.952,"end":11447.311,"text":"矽光是一個把電轉為光的過程然後用光來傳輸會比較快對就是光傳導嘛是那光老實講在以往在台灣或說在世界是還沒有用這樣的方式來傳輸當然這是人才要培育是必須的那也是因為所以它就是一個嶄新的技術嘛就是過去是用電嘛過去所謂的半導體就是用電然後去做整個的運算"},{"start":11447.751,"end":11462.34,"text":"那現在就加入了光那如何要把這個光傳導然後再整合在晶片的兩塊晶片把它堆疊的時候用光傳導去加速它的運算所以就我的理解啦這裡面除了說"},{"start":11463.36,"end":11484.045,"text":"涉及到了傳統的一個物理之外它的材料學也很重要甚至它對光學的理解電學的理解都很重要所以它等於是一個嶄新的一個技術那這個技術裡面當然就需要這樣類似的一個人才了對 那你們現在人才端你們的計畫是怎樣如果以這樣的一個矽光子的國家 對"},{"start":11484.926,"end":11513.015,"text":"那跟委員報告在目前我們剛剛委員提到29億這樣的一個4年的計畫那目前是由這個國客會這邊會來處理這有關他有的人才的專才的部分這邊提到是200名那另外在我們產業端的部分我們有工研院等等的單位在工業電光所這邊有投入這一塊那這個是比較接跟產業接觸那這個部分我們也同時跟不管是跟業者"},{"start":11513.695,"end":11541.031,"text":"的一個一起投入還有是跟也看學校這邊有什麼需求我們都有配合所以你們也是鼓勵這一些大學端研究端那來加入這樣一個團隊未來來成立就是說你們矽光子國家隊你們現在預計至少要有200個專才嘛對不對要有200個專才那我直接跟你講一個好消息啦我們嘉義啦中正大學啦"},{"start":11541.511,"end":11563.702,"text":"事實上也是看準了這樣的一個因為未來台積電所謂COWAS的一個封裝廠他大概是以嘉義來做他未來的佈局所以大概中央大學目前非常的積極他甚至去找了你們所成立的矽光子聯盟去跟聯盟的一些策略長都有已經有初步的交換意見那甚至也去拜訪了這個"},{"start":11565.763,"end":11592.922,"text":"北科大台科大的教授大概就是說未來我們中正大學可能會在矽光子的研發上我們可能會先從微學程未來會到學位學程等於是說他就要朝向這裡來推進那是不是如果大學端中正大學已經有這樣的看準了現在未來國家需要矽光子國家隊的人才"},{"start":11594.383,"end":11612.97,"text":"那他願意來走出這一步那我想是不是站在國科會或跟經濟部應該是要予以他們更大的協助這個非常重要因為在嘉義這邊如果是與發展矽光子這樣的一個產業就是等於封裝的半導體部分的投入那人才一定是非常重要的"},{"start":11613.57,"end":11633.707,"text":"那所以當這個部分我們因為矽光子當然不只有這個製程比如說台積電這一方還有一個設備剛剛委員提到的材料材料的部分那這個是一個整合性的所以我們先前有跟那個在結合這個跟中正大學的理工學院理院長還有一個幹副院長對副院長對"},{"start":11636.51,"end":11659.648,"text":"所以你們已經有接洽了嘛第一個就是說有關這個我們學程怎麼樣來安排那怎麼樣去跟教育部來爭取那個內容上什麼課那我們要請什麼樣的師製跟什麼業者一起來就是應該齁就是說我們未來這個大學端齁都應該要變成一個啦產業很重要能工廠寬學產業很重要所以應該就是產業出題"},{"start":11662.923,"end":11688.901,"text":"產業出考題學術端訓練學生來答題應該就是常常這樣所以中文大學也是朝這樣的一個方向正在努力中就是說他可能會跟更多的產業包括目前銳益半導體他也很樂意在這一塊可以提供更多甚至我們也未來希望我們可以在中研院這邊也可以給我們更多的一個方向"},{"start":11689.341,"end":11706.278,"text":"那我覺得嘉義大學要成立所謂矽光子的這樣的一個學程我們站在我們現在推動這個產業的需求我們應該要全力來協助好不好是那第二個啦是說我看到這個這個產業的困境除了人才端"},{"start":11707.259,"end":11728.687,"text":"事實上也有說包括代工平台封測設備的能量不足那以及有缺少這個產品的驗測中心那所以這樣的一連串的這樣的一個問題目前你們這邊是怎麼計劃怎麼樣解決你們說到的目前困境您的方向是怎樣"},{"start":11729.281,"end":11756.449,"text":"現在目前電晶片 矽光紙大概要有幾個部分第一個是電晶片的部分 這個是沒有問題我們聯發科已經投入然後再來是光晶片那確實是由公務院這邊在協助業者一起來建立這樣的能力因為是先前沒有做這個部分那雷射的部分也有我們國內有些化合物半導體這部分是沒有問題是把整個封裝起來因為那要變成整個通道蠻多的通道 光線通道出去封裝要能夠 良率要能夠高的話這個部分也是由公務院跟業者一起在"},{"start":11757.069,"end":11775.514,"text":"在準備中那也是在因為目前這樣的一個技術台積電是規劃2029年要量產所以我們2028年一定要完全完成這樣的相關的一個研發開發工作所以台積電希望2029量產嘛對不對好所以我們可能在你說好2028你要準備好這一些平台"},{"start":11775.994,"end":11791.826,"text":"好那這就是我現在一個疑問啦就是說好那我回到剛剛中央大學說他們一旦想要進入舊矽光子的一個學程那如果他們需要這樣的後端的一些平台啦驗檢的一個設備啦那他們應該要怎麼跟我們這邊國科會這邊來對接"},{"start":11799.128,"end":11819.867,"text":"其實在半導體在國科會跟經濟部都有相關的那個製程平台我講可能是比如說我們這邊有一些半導體8吋跟12吋晶圓廠然後有一些封測有一些檢驗等等這個我們在尤其在供應院這邊裡面都有設置那我們也歡迎這個我們也正在跟中正大學正在談說怎麼樣去做"},{"start":11820.968,"end":11840.03,"text":"除了在課堂上的講說之外那怎麼樣來做實務的這些實作那這個都是在我們的規劃以內對 因為他們有課程嘛他們還是需要有一些實作的一些場域啊所以可能未來 我覺得說中央大學現在這個他要把這樣的一個學位學程要把它推動出去的話"},{"start":11840.811,"end":11858.499,"text":"我感覺可能也不是只有師資跟課程而已啦一顆零後邊後端他也需要更多設備的投入所以可能未來都沒有人會這麼多但我覺得既然有學校要跳出來要來承擔這個精靈還是一樣啦我們公部門盡量去協助大學讓他把"},{"start":11859.239,"end":11872.534,"text":"所謂的矽光子國家隊然後在學位的學的這部分趕快把它落實然後讓他不管是在施肢啦設備啦所以他未來所需要的一些經費我們都應該予以協助好不好好謝謝"},{"start":11877.166,"end":11898.476,"text":"謝謝蔡易瑜委員然後署長、市長、副主委請回我們中午不休息然後延長開會時間至議程處理完畢再休息謝謝我們接下來請張家俊委員抱歉抱歉抱歉吳立華委員吳立華委員吳立華委員不在抱歉請張家俊委員"},{"start":11904.054,"end":11921.812,"text":"主席我想請國發會葉主委請國發會葉主委主委午安我想藉這個機會請教於您關於AI十大建設國發會推動這個計畫這個總投資的規模是多少呢"},{"start":11929.807,"end":11945.861,"text":"好 主委不知道明年的預算是300多億是 他的總投資規模高達1.78兆元喔目標是打造AI護國群山應該你要比我了解吧怎麼感覺好像我在講這件事你不是那麼理解"},{"start":11946.582,"end":11966.253,"text":"委員你那個1.78兆元是屬於152項那個建設就配套那一個部分但我們還有另外一個是是在AI新十大建設另外一塊另外一塊你說那一塊是多少錢所以要在1.78兆之內再加上那個嗎還是這是額外的另外你們明年編多少300多億"},{"start":11966.953,"end":11979.242,"text":"300多億那不是一個小數字欸是真的是一個蠻大的數字喔那你們的目標是據我所知是讓台灣成為全球AI前五強那這個是正確嗎"},{"start":11982.543,"end":12005.236,"text":"是的那是我們的目標是你們的目標吧那我想針對這個AI呢其實真的是繼半導體之後帶動國家成長的一個新引擎也是面對少子化缺工產業升級時非常重要的契機不過主委我想了解目前整體的推動重點是不是還集中在台北呢"},{"start":12005.984,"end":12032.042,"text":"不會 因為我們會均衡的去發展譬如說北部的話就是桃豬苗大系股然後南部的話就是會有南方新系股那中間的話 那是哪裡南方新系股是哪裡包括嘉義 台南 高雄 還有屏東那為什麼就跳過了雲林呢你台北有 南部有 然後我們雲林就沒有我不能理解 這是均衡嗎沒有 有"},{"start":12033.903,"end":12062.757,"text":"中部有啦中部有就是所以你幾乎整排西部都有就只有跳過雲林的意思囉是不是我想提醒主委如果AI的成果都只是在都會區開花的話勢必會擴大數位落差而且產業落差讓我們中部的產業難以受惠那AI的成功不能只是技術的成功更應該是與陸軍戰全民共享的成功 主委你同意嗎"},{"start":12063.497,"end":12088.402,"text":"跟委員報告其實在雲林這邊其實我們有規劃全民智慧生活圈還有中部精密智慧智慧新核心其實都有內容是什麼可以提供給本席辦公室嗎中部精密智慧新核心的話包括農漁業導入智慧科技還有發展那個智慧養殖並拓展到食品的加工那這個編了多少錢呢這個部分的話"},{"start":12090.086,"end":12118.671,"text":"我那個是不是會後提供給委員會後給我書面資料好不好那我舉雲林為例交通跟能源都兼備中科湖北園區如果未來從湖北一直串聯到土庫串聯到寶中 串聯到東勢整體可達1600公頃的這個腹地而且它是單一地主全部都是台塘土地足以容納半導體跟AI產業上下游"},{"start":12119.551,"end":12139.022,"text":"建廠放眼50年我猜喔都不用再擔心土地的問題請問主委國發會能不能率先在雲林規劃一個AI應用的示範據點產業的示範據點讓所有全國都能夠看到AI帶來的實質成果呢"},{"start":12139.842,"end":12149.385,"text":"報告委員其實我們在台中已經有設類似的那至於是不是在雲林是不是我們再評估一下認真評估一下好不好認真評估一下我們有水有電還有土地耶你要看其他的縣市幾乎都已經沒有這個條件了剛剛蔡易餘委員問的她問了很多有關於他們台積電的事情他們的台積電還是跟我們借水的耶你知道嗎"},{"start":12168.843,"end":12180.015,"text":"所以為什麼我們有水有地有電我們不能夠發展產業我們的水還要借給別人用你覺得這合理嗎站在國家發展的角度之上你覺得這樣合理嗎我"},{"start":12182.984,"end":12205.607,"text":"不合理 你就說不合理啊區域均衡的問題因為水的問題其實比如說像新竹的話有一些水也是從苗栗送啦所以其實是每一個地方政府都互相在你說哪裡的水是從苗栗送應該是苗栗的水往新竹送吧"},{"start":12206.348,"end":12230.418,"text":"我現在是在跟你說雲林的水往嘉義送我知道所以我跟委員分享是說其實區域治理其實要地方政府一起來做我現在就在告訴你說我們既然有這個條件我們既然有這個條件國發會就要重視這才是你的工作不是說這裡已經發展就這裡繼續發展就好了那這樣子我們的城鄉差距就會越來越大"},{"start":12231.977,"end":12237.839,"text":"你不同意嗎我同意但是就每一個區域你同意就好了他要有他的特色啦就每一個區域要有一個特色啦不然的話整個台灣全部都半導體其實也不好那你針對雲林的規劃是什麼"},{"start":12247.939,"end":12269.725,"text":"雲林的規劃其實是放在我們那個中部的精密精密那個你對雲林的規劃是什麼不要告訴我你只是想要規劃雲林繼續種田是嗎沒有沒有沒有就跟委員分享就是說我們這邊也有規劃全民智慧生活圈你剛剛講的漁業農業對那是一支現在是第二個然後第二個是什麼"},{"start":12270.265,"end":12285.477,"text":"第二個就是我剛剛跟委員分享就是全民智慧生活圈裡面有包括智慧健康智慧健康是什麼智慧健康這個就是委員你比較重視的就是所謂的長照醫院所以我們就只能有醫院有農業有漁業我們沒有辦法發展產業還有那個運輸中心你是這個意思嗎我覺得你給我這個傳遞的訊息讓我有點擔憂"},{"start":12299.367,"end":12313.377,"text":"而且是不只是有點擔憂是非常擔憂就會覺得說你這樣子的話等於是你內心已經有抵定說反正你就是要重點發展哪幾個地方然後剩下的就其他地方沒辦法走你就直接走沒有啦就是我們會依照每個地方的特色主委我誠摯的邀請你到雲林來走一走"},{"start":12321.303,"end":12332.293,"text":"然後雲林來走一走你才知道你想像的東西你想像的雲林也許跟你看到的不一樣好不好那我接下來想要問那個樹發部的侯次長侯次長"},{"start":12336.997,"end":12357.013,"text":"我們今天提到AI科技的未來藍圖其實我是一則以喜一則以憂看好一面說AI發展會帶動整個產業的新高峰促進經濟成長但是相對應也讓一個犯罪行為更為容易次長你知道我說指的是什麼嗎"},{"start":12359.164,"end":12366.008,"text":"是我不太確定委員詐騙對我想我前兩天也看到林部長接受媒體專訪喔就是大談這個打詐的心得包括要求Meta Google Line揭露這個廣告出資者24小時內下架詐騙廣告"},{"start":12379.176,"end":12396.006,"text":"那我想要知道說美國官員來台參訪的時候速發部有沒有提出說跟Facebook詐騙相關的議題他們有給我們什麼正面的回應嗎有 他們有提出就是未來一起合作那除了這個有什麼具體的嗎"},{"start":12397.935,"end":12422.883,"text":"具體的部分應該還在雙方協商當中我在這裡提醒次長速發部應該加大對Meta或者是美國官方要加大你們關切的力度原因很簡單依照速發部自己的統計資料我不曉得次長有沒有掌握目前網路平台中最主要的詐騙廣告詐騙管道是什麼"},{"start":12426.951,"end":12450.867,"text":"應該是社群平台吧就是Meta就是MetaMeta佔了86.9%是第一名所以呢如果假設假設速發布覺得詐騙打詐是你們重要的一環的話那你們應該跟Meta溝通啊你知道這個路透社表示喔2024年24年"},{"start":12454.709,"end":12458.353,"text":"平均每日向用戶展現150億則高風險的詐騙廣告然後有10.1%的年度營收是來自於違反平台標準的廣告其中詐騙廣告一年為他們創造70億美元2168億的年營收"},{"start":12477.21,"end":12491.79,"text":"那我不曉得次長有沒有掌握這個數字啊可以說是是吧那你們應該要知道說Meta假設你們可以讓Meta跟你們合作該下架的都要下架你現在知道Meta他下架的標準是什麼嗎他"},{"start":12494.353,"end":12511.584,"text":"高達95%他覺得說這應該是詐騙廣告他才會下假設93%他不下他只是跟業主說你多付一點廣告費我繼續幫你登這個部分跟委員報告我們通報他的他都會下架所以只要你通報他都會下架那你們通報的這個"},{"start":12513.985,"end":12541.954,"text":"是怎麼樣 你們是人工通報嗎還是AI通報我們是會有 我們已經有一個就是完整的機制那會接到舉報之後會給各個主管機關那我再給你看 我再給你看這個黃仁勳的你看這兩個這兩個都用黃仁勳結果呢 一個說已經被移除了一個說疑似詐騙你可以告訴我這兩個有什麼不一樣嗎"},{"start":12544.192,"end":12563.48,"text":"你可以告訴我有什麼不一樣嗎沒辦法嘛所以我覺得說我覺得說你們真的要積極一點積極一點否則我們有多少民眾有多少辛苦賺了一輩子錢的搞不好他真的要退休全部錢都被騙光光"},{"start":12564.64,"end":12569.824,"text":"這怎麼辦呢這真的是要靠你們耶否則你們現在感覺好像事不關己你要速發部打架這麼久結果那個太子集團的詐騙案還是美國要通知我們我們才知道所以呢我在這裡建議啊打架不只是要在抓這個個案這些末端的事情而且往上啊往源頭啊否則速發部的存在是做什麼"},{"start":12591.778,"end":12609.462,"text":"跟委員報告 這個打架其實是很多部會大家一起合作好 我知道 但是現在都是如果說電話的打架當然都不歸你們管啊那這些網路的打架難道不歸你們管嗎是不是然後另外經濟部說主責AI的百工百業那速發部也主責AI的應用那到底這現在是誰做主"},{"start":12618.639,"end":12644.63,"text":"我们会有跟经济部一起协作那抒发部这部分是针对这个技术的提供还有支付业者的部分去做资源投入所以是谁做主在不同的场域里面应该是会有不同的就不会来做所以就你跟经济部是谁做主我们在那个如果是AI新时代建设的话AI数位产业登峰这一支计划是我们主责好 加油谢谢"},{"start":12648.322,"end":12669.377,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員主委請回 謝謝接下來請賴世寶委員賴世寶委員不在接下來請高金素梅委員高金素梅委員高金素梅委員不在接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在接下來請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12684.844,"end":12688.112,"text":"你好 我們請國防會主委好 我們請國防會主委 謝謝"},{"start":12692.807,"end":12717.018,"text":"委員好主委好對這個我先想用這個惠達執行長黃仁勳他不斷強調的一個概念就是主權AI他不斷的警告說如果一個國家沒有他自己的主權AI他沒有辦法掌握自己的數據沒有辦法掌握自己的文化解釋權那他就會陷入智慧的進口依賴那你說他智慧的進口依賴就是我們必須在各個公部門"},{"start":12717.578,"end":12742.808,"text":"現在他不可以把我們想要在公部門的資訊放到ChurchGPT嘛理論上是不行的嘛儘管他是美國的但是因為他跟我國畢竟還是有主權上面的這個不同那在資訊管理上面或者是在資安管理上面我們不方便把它丟到ChurchGPT或者不方便把它丟到相關的這樣子的智慧模型語言大型語言的模型裡面我這樣講是對還錯是對嘛應該是這樣子所以這對台灣人來說是一個"},{"start":12746.59,"end":12763.744,"text":"我認為說是一個警訊首先我們沒有辦法效率化的使用這樣子的數位工具如果沒有辦法效率化的使用數位工具的話我們跟民間的差距就會越來越大因為現在在民間的不管是跟資訊相關的公司也好或者是一般的你可能是做貿易相關的公司也好它"},{"start":12764.344,"end":12791.245,"text":"越來越依賴這樣子的這種大型的語言模型那生產的效率會隨著這樣子的時間的推進那gap會越來越大我想這應該是很明顯的所以這對台灣來說是很大的警訊我們生產了全球90%的這個重要的硬體晶片我們擁有最強的細鈍但是在軟體層面我們缺乏自己的質鈍所以我看到經濟部可能經濟部的司長也麻煩也可以一起來去回應"},{"start":12792.026,"end":12815.504,"text":"我們看到經濟部他在回覆沈博洋委員的書面質詢他裡面有明確的提到要結合法人運用台灣產業特有的資料打造台灣自主的AI核心技術那國科會有推動你們的可信任的台灣的大型語言模型但是目前的架構我認為有幾個結構性的問題"},{"start":12817.225,"end":12828.364,"text":"第一個部分這個大學的語言模型的預算大概是多少錢可不可以簡單的回應一下TED台德台德這一個"},{"start":12832.278,"end":12860.131,"text":"我們確認一下我講一下那個數據你們跟我們核實是不是這樣大概預算是1億多新台幣大概是這個規模應該沒有錯嗎如果我們的查證沒有錯的話應該是過去的投入過去的投入大概是年度的預算大概是1億多這個新台幣那法國的我們可以相應的這個機構它成立大概兩年多那今年9月的預估值是140億美元也就是4300多億台幣"},{"start":12862.185,"end":12891.925,"text":"那法國人口數大概數倍於我們但是也僅是數倍不會差4300倍所以雙方的落差是超過千倍那這樣子的千倍的落差我們受限於我們的這是一個學研機構我們受限於他的薪資結構我們根本搶不贏其他重要的這些大型的這種企業大型的公司不要說台積電Google或者是頂級的海外的這些架構式來回流嘛"},{"start":12892.685,"end":12917.798,"text":"所以我覺得幾個方案第一個就是產業化的路徑可以透過主權基金的投資讓我們的這種可信任的人工智慧對話引擎能夠成為一個民營的新創它有辦法在這個市場上面存活下去但同時也是我國的自主的主權的AI想請教一下市長或者是主委你認為我們有沒有辦法參考這些相關的模式來去"},{"start":12919.059,"end":12937.159,"text":"不要引用輔助的思維我們可以透過頭髮這個國發基金來去點火用股權投資的方式把它作為這種衍生新創的方式來去擴大讓它成為一個具備市場競爭力的這樣能夠開出年薪非常多的這樣子來去延攬頂級人才的國家隊"},{"start":12939.748,"end":12962.016,"text":"報告委員 就主權基金這個部分因為還在收集資料演講當中的話這個主權基金這個部分我比較沒辦法回答但是國發基金這邊的話其實我們有跟速發部跟國客會這邊都有合作那我們會有一個叫做百億的主題式的投資那這個部分的話倒是可以去幫助一些新創"},{"start":12963.696,"end":12986.487,"text":"所以我們現在的這一個我們台德這一個本身它是採用哪一種模式台德應該不是國發基金的還是用傳統我們用補助大概每年有年度預算這樣但是台德可能就是我們最主要的國家主權的AI可以這麼講嗎那這樣子的資金的投入夠嗎這才是我比較擔心的問題"},{"start":12987.383,"end":13016.613,"text":"台德只是其中的一部分我們現在國網中心有成立一個台灣AI Rep成立一個聯盟那對於有意願投入不管是大圓模型或小圓模型或者是相關個別應用的公司我們都可以來做協助或開發相關的平台那剛剛講的AI的這個百億的基金它也可以持續地挹注這些新的新創公司那甚至是結合經濟部跟國科會既有的一些新創的機制都可以來協助這些AI新創公司的一個發展以上"},{"start":13017.313,"end":13046.392,"text":"非常感謝那我還是再強調一下我們剛才提到的規模上面的差別這個估值4300多億台幣跟這樣子的年度預算他可能是沒有辦法做匹配的那當然如果說有白億的這個資金進入那讓各種不同的新創企業能夠從中得到資源來去有朝一日可以去擴大到這種程度的話我們也是樂見其成的但是還是要強調規模可能要稍微提高"},{"start":13046.812,"end":13060.53,"text":"那時間可能要稍微加快一下不然我們公務部門會跟私營的企業它之間的數位的鴻溝會越來越大那對很多公務員來講的話也會很可惜好 謝謝"},{"start":13066.926,"end":13095.175,"text":"好 謝謝那麼我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員有林黛嬅委員 呂玉玲委員黃婕委員所提書面資料列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會那本日所列的議程處理完畢謝謝我們所有的議事主任也謝謝媒體朋友謝謝我們行政部門"},{"start":13096.696,"end":13097.739,"text":"謝謝大家現在散會 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列席委員賴世寶委員等23人列席官員11月12日 大陸委員會主任委員邱垂正暨相關人員 財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長吳豐山暨相關人員11月13日 內政部常務次長吳太安暨相關人員財政部國庫署副署長林秀燕 數位發展部數位政府司司長王承明暨相關人員金融監督管理委員會銀行局副局長王允忠中華郵政股份有限公司副總經理陳棟良主席黃昭吉委員建斌"},{"start":1499.814,"end":1524.665,"text":"十一月十二日報告事項 一 宣讀上次會議之路決定確定 二 邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務該況並被質詢大陸委員會主任委員邱垂政及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長吳豐山及相關人員報告委員張宏祿等十七人質詢 由大陸委員會主任委員邱垂政及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長吳豐山及相關人員答覆說明"},{"start":1526.126,"end":1539.923,"text":"決定一登記發言委員逐步在場 則外其餘均與發言完畢詢答協書二委員 丁薛忠 黃潔 林楚英王 洪威及高金 宿美等五人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關與一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1541.304,"end":1570.596,"text":"11月13日報告事項邀請內政部財政部數位發展部金融監督管理委員會交通部就普發現金1萬元之跨部會防詐其查緝作為進行專題報告並備質詢內政部常務次長吳唐安報告委員李博義等19人質詢分別由內政部常務次長吳唐安及相關人員數位發展部數位政府司司長王承明及相關人員中華郵政股份有限公司副總經理陳棟良金融監督管理委員會銀行局副局長王允忠財政部國庫署副署長林秀燕答覆說明"},{"start":1571.176,"end":1573.557,"text":"請問各位委員 今天會議議事錄有什麼錯誤的或是遺漏的嗎沒有請議事錄確定"},{"start":1602.36,"end":1613.144,"text":"繼續經營分裂議程報告的署行者先讀邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況並備質詢 宣讀完畢現在我們來介紹在庭的委員和列席的官員第一位委員張志倫委員"},{"start":1631.84,"end":1659.218,"text":"南海洋委員會管組委綜合規劃處郭處長海域安全處洪處長科技文教處林處長國際發展處李處長海洋資源處吳處長"},{"start":1662.557,"end":1690.503,"text":"秘書是江主任資訊是邱主任人事處黃處長主計處黃處長政風處蔡副處長海洋保育署李副署長"},{"start":1696.325,"end":1720.547,"text":"另外一位師傅署長國家海洋研究院張副院長海巡署北部分署廖分署長中部分署王分署長"},{"start":1724.878,"end":1752.752,"text":"南部分署 鳳分署長東部分署 蔡分署長金馬盆分署長 陳分署長東南沙分署 張分署長建隊分署 黃分署長"},{"start":1755.031,"end":1780.956,"text":"曾煌昆署黃昆署長教育訓練測考中心方主任我們海洋委員會張務副主任委員江海巡署張署長"},{"start":1787.168,"end":1799.032,"text":"我們現在來補充剛才禮拜的委員第一位蘇巧慧委員再來黃潔委員現在就來我們這海洋委員會管組委報告的業務"},{"start":1821.779,"end":1836.417,"text":"各位委員 各位先生 各位媒體的朋友 大家好今天非常榮幸來台北報告 委員回來報告 主管也不提出報告並比之前非常榮幸 希望委員能夠致告"},{"start":1838.659,"end":1844.703,"text":"為應對不斷變動的行業局勢、文化以及相關的部份共同的努力之下就國家行業政策白皮書進行編輯以順著相關國際的三安事態施政的主軸對國土的安全、海域的啟發以及科技的轉型和環境的保護文化的教育一直到國際的連結這部分都進行多方面的報告"},{"start":1865.677,"end":1876.468,"text":"來鼓勵保育白皮書裡面的安全 應屬以及就共贏這樣現代很有潤性的體力的體系感謝各位委員的指導及支持以下我就請本會緊急重要的委員會推動及未來施政的重點來質疑 來提出來報告"},{"start":1885.377,"end":1898.765,"text":"第一是有關捍衛我們的海域環境和我們國家安全的部分為了維護海域的環境今年我們水埠專屬的經濟海域總共有782個行處東山有97個行處南山有10個行處公海水埠有3個行處咱們距離外界的路線總共有773個手處"},{"start":1913.314,"end":1915.195,"text":"考慮有17宗 法患有612萬 夢境有13宗因為今年我們沒有落選外界的賭卒就是把我們投入賭卒的這種情緒所以今年這是零"},{"start":1930.762,"end":1938.426,"text":"為了影響中國在海峽的累積、離空與瓦礙的延年我們當晚有17.3天、86天我們很溫暖來接觸到我們自己的海洋、修復自由的方向所以東部、共同港的時候,我們就都有抓到"},{"start":1952.052,"end":1973.089,"text":"在滾燕時修補票的途徑每次滾燕時都有修補票的途徑所以我們全臺以赴修復國安另外我們在海濫的部分大家都很關心修飾的風險埠裡面我們有一個監控的系統跟巡邏的重點其中看依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依"},{"start":1979.754,"end":1988.22,"text":"那陣子也已經拍賣了我們絕對沒有用我們說用以外的名義在破壞我們的國安這是第一點第二點是它在海洋的地質的部分我們有強化整備的量能"},{"start":1995.685,"end":2006.574,"text":"我們農莊抓到國際的毒品抓到現在 今年還沒到年底 還要再增加今年還沒到年底 我們已經超過過去幾年我們已經抓到毒品13,630.3公斤青雞是52雞 蛋要是7、89粒"},{"start":2016.522,"end":2018.843,"text":"匯發出入口的案件都有62人農事業的特產品都有42766公斤租金是396万9千4百塊一包基礎對1百塊前年開始我們要維度非洲的資源"},{"start":2038.932,"end":2051.536,"text":"運營依賴我們海巡在邊境管理面我們立即處理都在海漂的北市都在179案例還有委員報告就是說我們寫好這個報告之後在早上還增加一個案例所以都在180個案例我們在修這個邊境我們是修得很徹底的"},{"start":2061.199,"end":2075.213,"text":"所以這方面請委員提告第三就是攸關加強海域安全確保我們提供在海上的油氣平安的部分我們用公司兩個名列和政府的兩共同在優化海域的油氣安全的時候"},{"start":2081.158,"end":2090.561,"text":"我們當中有13個熱點,就是13個海洋油氣的熱點我們有設立救生衣,就是救生衣的救養站,可以免費去救生衣我們也有修訂海洋油氣活動的整個跟管理的基因在這個管理基因裡面,我們要求這個衛生安全應該要有的SOP"},{"start":2104.546,"end":2121.908,"text":"還有提供一個叫做GoOcean App 跟委員報告這個GoOcean App 很好用的啦我們是很希望說可以選擇給他來 更多人來用因為我們如果是要去海岸玩你去遊泳也好 你要去衝浪也好或是你要去滑獨木舟也好"},{"start":2122.629,"end":2131.339,"text":"我們都有鑑識這個鑑識都會跟你說你這個時候可以去或不要去這個時候的海洋是多嚴重在這個海洋之下可能要專家才可以去你如果不是專家你就不要去所以這個救護船的APP是真的很好學我們的國海院"},{"start":2141.23,"end":2158.587,"text":"開放這個料 跟各位報告就是說我們的路透 路透社還有改 還有改應用 還有改直播所以這個東西很好用的我們一定要有國家用戶來推廣要去海邊 去投 要去海上 外地的人都可以來使用這一點特別要向大家報告"},{"start":2162.39,"end":2177.039,"text":"另外我們今年執行的救生救人 總共278人我們總共救544人 剛才當然媒體很關心就是說中國人剛剛在給我們滾燕 剛剛在給我們戰備警訊為什麼我們還要去救他們 沒錯前幾天就是說 中國人在給我們戰備警訊的時候有一代中國人 他在我們的海洋外也不是在我們的海洋內"},{"start":2190.627,"end":2198.591,"text":"在我們的海洋上去燃燒船這個燃燒船燃燒得很嚴重雖然說海洋不好但是我們的船馬上出去馬上出去我們如果不去泡沫他們人就沒辦法救了所以我們直接去泡沫讓他們人可以救回來"},{"start":2209.055,"end":2222.325,"text":"當然有人說 中國對我們人生要求我在這裡也要拜託委員 拜託所有鄉親支持我們 人都 全人都中國在對付我們 我們是氣到要死 恨得癢癢的 都很傷心的很希望你做國際社會一個文明的國家 你不能違反黑人的共犯在對付我們 我們很痛苦 也很傷心 很憤怒"},{"start":2236.135,"end":2249.61,"text":"但是他們的背景是在海上受到這件事所以你去救的事情發生的時候為了人道你說叫我不要去救我也做不了所以希望說大家可以接納我們的價值觀我們在海上"},{"start":2252.373,"end":2258.839,"text":"就像醫生在救人 他也不分你什麼東排所以這個方面 我希望大家可以支持我們這方面我們基地都算救到現在是544人這次就是污染 污染部分我們也很注重所以國內的準 都算有475台 我們有去檢查"},{"start":2279.916,"end":2287.338,"text":"剛靠溫差不多有2千137百有的硬幣183元有的風太陽來有的硬幣很嚴重如果平常有時候要準備去購錢有的東西都會去硬幣今年有183件預祝期輪大家只要關心壓力現在也已經蓋過了"},{"start":2304.003,"end":2312.288,"text":"我們有一個準備就是以後的部分我們現在比較久但是如果是化學品會怎麼樣化學品如果複雜化學品如果汙染化學品很複雜每一種化學品它會如何汙染會如何傷害人都不一樣"},{"start":2321.773,"end":2338.928,"text":"這我們都派人 當年我們派人去法國 派人去新加坡 派人去日本 都派去訓練這派不是只有派我們自己的人 中央地方政府 民間跟企業界 都做團這三個國家我們都去合作 現在就有成立這個化學災害國家隊這個部份也是我們今年的成就"},{"start":2344.813,"end":2357.843,"text":"我們在檢測海水的水質海水的水質很重要有時候它也會傷害我們的身體明天有時候會昏眩 硬硬的我們都做檢測是125個地方海水的水質我們都 還有人為之跟大家報告就是說我們的檢測出來還有人為之是都合法都符合我們的標準這樣第二個在海水的地理部分我們完成10個地方"},{"start":2373.276,"end":2377.221,"text":"海洋廢棄物的密度調查還有30億的河川出口也有進行檢測"},{"start":2383.132,"end":2389.634,"text":"我們稻埸港這條事件全部的艦隊有6,507台前海戰將有5,841人近海前哨戰有45艘程度的海域是2,675公噸內陣都有71個企業加入海肺再生聯盟就是把海膩"},{"start":2409.919,"end":2429.145,"text":"撈上來的這個海洋廢棄物我們把它再生再利用這個再利用甚至這個紅機電腦的鍵盤也有用到這個海廢所以這個部分我們都有在推動我們也在推動一個友善海洋標章的認證制度現在如火如荼在推動希望能夠讓大家來開發"},{"start":2430.625,"end":2444.93,"text":"海洋廢棄物再利用或者是不要傷害海洋對海洋友善的產品那我們有這個認證的制度第二就是生態保護生態保護今年我們救援這個擱淺的基因群總共是97隻海骨有263隻深澤出入案你這個輸出入有時候保養的東西不能輸出入你輸出入我們就要給你抓"},{"start":2458.414,"end":2470.377,"text":"都處理了一百四十四個案子這個疾管海鮮大家都很關心我們在培養的疾管海鮮和冬沙冬沙和培養今年疾管海鮮都四萬多隻這會吃酸藕酸藕會吃死了所以這不可以所以疾管海鮮我也很認真處理"},{"start":2480.801,"end":2501.801,"text":"其他的部分有很多 比如說酸藥 第一第五項的部分 酸藥我們很注重的所以酸藥的保育 骸骨的保育 精吞的觀察我們都做很多 這才給委員參考另外就是在地的骸硬的活化 第一這個部分特別報告就是我們今年有一個新的政策"},{"start":2503.615,"end":2524.871,"text":"但是要讓我們兩千三百萬人不管你是否自己有能力來接近疫苗如果你自己比較不方便接近疫苗有的可能是腋下比較大有的可能就是有慢性疾病、坐輪椅的症狀你如果沒辦法接近疫苗的時候我們有一個肺炎病患、肺炎病犬"},{"start":2526.512,"end":2532.057,"text":"親海無礙的政策 現在推動得不錯已經有四個政府 基隆 福林 台東 和高雄有四個政府 我們都已經補助了兩年來辦了很多活動 現在也制度已經起來了像高雄的密度 南寮的漁港現在也已經做好無障礙的通道"},{"start":2547.151,"end":2558.658,"text":"讓我們身障者跟行動不便的人已經有辦法在我們輔助的幫忙之下已經可以去害的地方這是我們第一點在台北提出來跟大家報告另外就是我們今年在海淫的發生的部分還有藍炭、藍銅的淨零的部分我們也做很多"},{"start":2572.647,"end":2576.81,"text":"今年海洋保護法60項的諸法都已經完成現在就要開始準備來實施海洋科技應援中心設置的條例也很感謝大家支持已經三頭通過了我們現在也如火如荼地在投幣"},{"start":2589.258,"end":2607.755,"text":"那憨永的政策白皮書我們可以發表都算有提出未來我們的憨永的政策有66項的策略250項的措施這都已經夠國保法要引用國保法你引用回來了你一定要做 行政會自己管這是我們今年以來可以說"},{"start":2609.957,"end":2618.579,"text":"在發財的發展的部分是很重要的一年也可以說是風修的一年請委員來指導其他就是為了這段時間有關科技的研究有關漢語的教育漢語的受用有關漢語的文化以及國際的交流請委員參考給我們指導總是委員也很關心在做的"},{"start":2638.803,"end":2642.826,"text":"因為我們都很關心海巡的動員 他們的福利 他們的執法的環境 執業的環境在這部分最好跟大家報告的是 我們也是很認真所以我們今年有去調查雷超手的勤務價格"},{"start":2658.677,"end":2667.319,"text":"也增加青年危老的增長委員會也很關心有辦專案的報告我們已經有完成當然在很辛苦的部分也已經有給他們加給剛才大家也很關心我們的編制編制有增加77人"},{"start":2681.783,"end":2697.292,"text":"用人的貪生有盡加 這些都是照顧海巡的下地 寺門很重要的地方另外就是未來的事情當然很重要 有幾項第一 汗油保有發過 現在省財委員會在做"},{"start":2700.154,"end":2712.381,"text":"做起來之後 這是一件很重要的事這一定要好好做好 未來這幾年很重要另外就是法人已經在投幣 今年要成立這也是很吃重 很抽筒的事情當然我們很有情情的白皮書 已經寫出來每年都要有每年的成績"},{"start":2725.569,"end":2727.131,"text":"這是未來三項最大的挑戰在這裡也向委員報告非常感謝最近這幾年來可以說我們內政委員會對韓友委員會有積極"},{"start":2746.849,"end":2762.833,"text":"但是在這次有很多的包容有很多的指導也感謝我們這次兩位教委還有所有的委員對我們的指導和感動讓我們有很多的包容在這裡請大家辛苦的感謝謝謝大家謝謝我們感謝管主委的進步報告我們現在來進行這項委員這項前"},{"start":2775.697,"end":2777.698,"text":"人類做幾點宣告每一個委員發言的時間分為委員5分鐘必要的時間延長2分鐘分為委員5分鐘可以10點30分"},{"start":2794.975,"end":2798.097,"text":"請管主委還有張署長請管主委張署長"},{"start":2827.122,"end":2847.459,"text":"主委好我們新北市有126公里的海岸線28座漁港有非常非常豐富的海洋資源這麼豐富的狀況下我們對於產業 觀光 教育這種種跟海洋資源有關的事物我們都覺得應該要好好的運用"},{"start":2848.22,"end":2852.762,"text":"可是在這個運用的過程當中還有保護的過程當中就對於使用海洋的人和設備彼此怎麼互動其實我覺得並沒有真的完全有明確的規範我舉個例子來講現在網路上面大家也常常在流行講這個例子"},{"start":2865.306,"end":2884.354,"text":"你去浮潛你去浮潛可能會碰到很多事情來 主委如果你去浮潛的時候遇到海龜誰會先退浮潛的人遇到了海龜人和海龜誰會先退我們會要求人一定要先退而且絕對不能觸摸絕對不能觸摸所以理論上一碰就罰30萬所以理論上現在浮潛的人因為"},{"start":2893.818,"end":2913.474,"text":"理論上現在浮潛的人去遇到海龜人一定會先退因為現在人都知道要是我碰到海龜不管是海龜碰到我還是我碰到他只要碰到就30萬所以這就是捷寶法很清楚的規定了之後人會做出決定好 那主委我想問那如果浮潛的人遇到船"},{"start":2914.555,"end":2921.957,"text":"誰會先退跟委員報告非常感謝委員關心誰會先退主委妳要先回答我妳覺得誰會先退在什麼狀況下會退最困難的是妳有沒有那個時間去迴避的問題那就表示他很靠近囉那我為什麼不能規定他到一定的距離的時候船其實應該要先退或者人如果有辦法那麼遠看到船人也應該先退不一定來得及看得到"},{"start":2940.16,"end":2958.279,"text":"所以跟委員報告那人要不要有一個標誌委員很關心也都找我們去開會那跟委員報告一個好消息我們現在呢已經決定了第一個除了我們有指引以外我們現在也決定了每一年我們會至少有三個月在那個海域的遊戲活動的熱計的這三個月呢"},{"start":2961.243,"end":2983.801,"text":"我們會出錢然後呢會補助民間的團體譬如說漁會他們替我們介護 勸導所以等於是和漁會一起合作來守護 來運用整體海洋的資源把漁會一起納入這個範疇之中是 我也很關心我們也都有照著做那目前有這樣的一個制度有被建立起來"},{"start":2984.381,"end":2999.459,"text":"那我們海事處處長也都開過很多的會本來我們就說我們還會跳出來趕快協調整合但是觀光署說我們先來整合看看但是最後還是我們還會有出來整合大家以後有了這樣的一個決定那前我們出"},{"start":3000.26,"end":3004.382,"text":"雖然我們不是目的事業主管機關但是錢我們出沒關係那我們就補助以後讓民力一起就在這個周邊的海域等於是戒護安全勸導來避免就是讓漁會也不只是它自己的漁產業之外它變成是它也成為觀光的一部分"},{"start":3019.369,"end":3025.114,"text":"所以漁業和觀光就不會比較不會有那麼大的衝突你的設計出發點是這樣嘛好沒關係主委我很高興聽到你至少有想辦法要解決這個問題不過這樣看起來其實你看這就是我今天要質詢的部分嘛我們是遇到一個單一的個案以後我們就想出一套解決的方式甚至又設立了新的行政命令這樣的規則好"},{"start":3043.53,"end":3058.684,"text":"我們現在對海洋的運用我剛剛在說的所有運用海洋資源的人和設備其實因為沒有一個統籌規範的方式所以每次都是發生案件我們就去處理發生案件就訂一個行政規則目前的狀態就是這樣所以在櫃會海委會自己這邊出的海洋白皮書裡面其實你們也有提到啊我國海上交通安全法制"},{"start":3068.092,"end":3074.978,"text":"有待完善也就是說路上大家都很習慣我們要有交通安全規則那海上呢是不是也應該要有呢你看我們陸地和海洋的法規體系從基本法 設備管理 耗資管理行業管理 執法依據通通都一樣都有法可是在行為管理的部分陸地很清楚海洋是沒有的嘛"},{"start":3091.693,"end":3113.989,"text":"那這個會衍生什麼呢除了剛剛是我們在使用的人這是正常使用的人彼此有衝突的時候怎麼來處理之外其實我就請海巡署來說海巡署這個我們其實大家在講這個中國的這個灰色衝突的部分那其實我們剛剛主委報告的時候也特別講到了鴻泰58號鴻泰58號在被發現是惡意割斷電纜之前其實他的行為是什麼狀態"},{"start":3119.053,"end":3146.549,"text":"它一定是圍牆滯留嘛那我想請問現在我國的法規裡面對於我發現它的圍牆滯留是有罰則的嗎如果有嗎 蘇貞有嗎我們現在草案送在大院就是海覽七法海覽七法就有非常有效而強力管制的措施如果我們認為你在海上是一個不當的令人感覺到對於航岸也好"},{"start":3147.028,"end":3162.538,"text":"或者是在這個海域的安全的部分有威脅性那我們就可以要求你要移動到特定的地方或者我們就希望你離開這就是我們要涉海濫七法吧如果不聽我們就有罰則"},{"start":3165.239,"end":3182.732,"text":"所以這一樣 又再次對不起 主委我知道我們每一個問題我們都非常認真的在解決其實我剛剛的PPT我們不然跳第一頁好了其實第一頁我對於海委會守護海洋不遺餘力我覺得你們做了非常多事情而且做了很努力只是因為質詢的時間有就這麼短所以我一定要直接進入我的問題我今天的問題是你看我們的問題有這麼多那每一個問題出來我們都做了一個處置"},{"start":3192.319,"end":3213.076,"text":"甚至是設立了法律也好行政命令也好做法規的處理但對於通則的部分其實並沒有達到這樣的狀態啊比如說剛剛我們是因為有發生了像紅太七號 紅太五十八號這樣子的問題所以我們來做海底七法的建制好 可是那我如果問如果是觀光的香蕉船"},{"start":3214.557,"end":3235.005,"text":"香蕉船如果是在海上蛇行那他跟浮潛的人那這樣怎麼辦我們昨天也才剛開完一個由政委協調整合的會議那事實上波特船或者是無極的小船他們的問題海委會是多年前就一次又一次的開會然後我們甚至我們有委員會嘛海委會有委員會就像陸委會有委員會嘛"},{"start":3237.446,"end":3254.942,"text":"那我们会找跨部会一起来开会那我就任以后的两次的委员会都有非常非常具体的裁示那跟着这个裁示下去做的时候呢交通部的航管部门也已经都已经有草案出来但是在这一次海揽七法里面因为我们主要是"},{"start":3255.67,"end":3275.884,"text":"专属是在处理海揽的问题所以这部分还没有进来可是下一波的船舶法的修法会进来那我们昨天也才开了一个跨部会的一个政委所主持的协调会议那我相信政委出来了比我管碧玲出来还要有力量了所以我希望进度会快一点"},{"start":3276.304,"end":3293.59,"text":"主委在這裡就是讓您回答包括您對我現在在講的一個通則海上交通安全通則的部分從白皮書從您現在備詢的態度其實都是海巡署海委會都是表示支持而且盡力在做那我也希望能夠跨部會的協調把海上的這一步行為規範可以讓它建制完成其實對海巡的弟兄我覺得執法也會容易許多對台灣的海洋資源運用也會安全許多"},{"start":3304.734,"end":3333.52,"text":"這是我今天這樣所以期待如果您可以的話是不是把這個相關的這個期程就是相關的草案也好還有這個建制期程麻煩送一份資料到辦公室專法的部分我們是主張立專法就是海上交通安全法但是呢主管部會認為說目前分散在不同的法律這個法效也夠那我們就尊重他們那就把這種分權式的立法也把它做到最好那我們就加強執法"},{"start":3334.537,"end":3347.867,"text":"好那最主要是草案送到大院來希望大院能夠支持好謝謝主委謝謝謝謝我們感謝蘇僑輝委員質詢我們請張志倫委員質詢好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早安有請管碧玲管主委請主委"},{"start":3367.177,"end":3396.297,"text":"主委早好主委今天我們有看到今天是我們這個海委會的專業務報告那我們有看到第39頁有提到這個海委會有爭取這個幫基層調整福利待遇這點本席非常肯定但是今天本席也要請教你有關於這個我們海巡人員的人力缺口越來越擴大的這樣的情形來跟你就請教根據立法院的預算中心的報告就主委你可以看一下我們這張"},{"start":3397.337,"end":3420.755,"text":"給你這樣圖表其實這個海巡署這個工作越來越繁雜所以中央也是很支持我們大家在這個努力做事所以人力每年有多增編大概是100 200接近到300多的人然後我們有給一個5年的計畫希望說海巡的人員可以越來越多可是我們看到"},{"start":3421.807,"end":3436.679,"text":"現在我們的從108年到114年的時候其實我們的預算緣額應該要增加1000多個人可是現在不僅沒有增加還一路下滑缺額非常的多從108年缺79個到現在已經缺了1391個人那這讓本席覺得納悶的點就是說現在114年的實際緣額是11504人比108年我們預算要給"},{"start":3451.59,"end":3474.199,"text":"你們的員額11726人還少所以意思就是說這五年的計畫不僅失敗而且還倒退那我想要請教主委就是說我們人民給了人民跟國家給了政府給了你們海委會預算也給了職缺可是為什麼人還是補不起是不是我們內部的一些管理文化還是執勤壓力還是流財機制出了大問題"},{"start":3475.299,"end":3501.001,"text":"那是不是請主委解釋一下好 謝謝委員委員長期關心這個題目叮嚀我很多次是那到委員的辦公室也都這樣頭卡卡的頂著是感謝委員了 給委員報告就是說這個統計數字表面看起來會讓委員有這個印象好像我們越來越嚴重但是事實上這個數字是隨著我們源而不斷的擴編然後來的一個動態不是 主委我剛好特別跟你報告所以今年是最好的狀況"},{"start":3501.681,"end":3520.075,"text":"今年最好 今年的元額比108年的預算還少我們今年是限職人員最多的一年最多是多少我們限職元額是一萬一千五百零四比去年還少 比去年少了一百五十二個人"},{"start":3520.855,"end":3537.288,"text":"跟委员报告我们的预算原额不是我说实际原额是每年都在增加我说实际原额实际原额是有在减少当中我们的数字是11948对这个数字比较精确是11948不是1150几好那"},{"start":3538.409,"end":3542.934,"text":"到年底我們的缺額會降到792人然後國防部因為會給我們400個義務役現在因為有義務役了它每一年會給我們400個義務役那它是逐步的撥補"},{"start":3555.048,"end":3583.804,"text":"所以撥補到位主委就是時間的關係所以要拜託你趕快把人補給還有委員剛剛講的那幾個要項我們都會努力去做因為這邊本席有接到從我們基層海巡的人員的一個請託他說我們海巡暗巡隊友的換裝俗稱2.5代的克拉克手槍他認為這個槍林超過20年了不知道是不是從別的單位所替換"},{"start":3584.779,"end":3613.194,"text":"我轉述他的話還是新採購的如果是新採購他認為水很深那這個我們基層的人員他們的一個心聲所以我要想請教的就是說其實我們後來不問不知道一問才嚇一跳才知道說我們基層人員很多的時候他們所使用現場的一個手槍的部分很多是這個槍頂已經超過36年甚至超過40年的非常嚴重那當然我想要請主委這邊"},{"start":3614.054,"end":3622.843,"text":"趕快來協助就是說你們現在的處理方式是什麼就是海巡很多相關的執勤人員來跟我反映說他們手上拿的這個手槍這個槍鈴超過40年"},{"start":3626.136,"end":3654.323,"text":"謝謝委員支持我們有錢了任性預算那你如何去更換全面太舊換新其實我有收到你們給我的資料我請署長來說明細節好不好拜託簡單回覆主席還有委員好那我們在115到1146我們變了1.8億那我們這次換的是把所有的手槍跟步槍所有的手槍是如何來更換全部汰換我沒有全部汰換喔我收到的資料沒有全部汰換我們是分兩年啦"},{"start":3654.983,"end":3682.616,"text":"因為我們這一個槍子是國造的所以組長我跟您請教我們問的是說那你們現在到底是三四十年的手槍會汰換還是全部的手槍全部汰換全部手槍都汰換連二十年以上都汰換嗎全部汰換好確定因為我這邊收到的資料是說你們大概是汰換四千多支的槍支可是只針對使用期限逾三十六年以上的才來汰換所以我想這是基層人員"},{"start":3683.629,"end":3708.292,"text":"他不能接受的一個部分因為我拿到你們的資料因為當時你們接受的這批手槍是從國安局來的那這批手槍已經20幾年了所以他才會認為基層的執行人員才會認為說為什麼換的手槍還是20幾年以上的結果你們現在要換的是超過36年以上的才有汰換不是全數汰換所以這邊你們其實署長你們還是要好好去檢討到底是否全數汰換好嗎"},{"start":3709.212,"end":3735.693,"text":"跟委員報告我們是全部汰換但是要分兩年交啦就中間會有一年是重疊新舊會有重疊所以全部汰換好那會後再把資料給我因為我收到資料只有汰換36年以上的手槍那20幾年的手槍到底有沒有汰換如果我不在這次質詢的時候請教吳表這些手槍還要再等多久才能汰換所以拜託署長這邊幫忙好不好好那最後一個問題我要想要請教說說"},{"start":3736.667,"end":3753.598,"text":"這也是預算中心來請教的就是現在我們海委會海巡這邊使用了大量的採購了大量的無人機可是從過去從112年以來其實無人機的執行的這個執行率的效果非常的差我們從112年編了5000萬113年編了1億200萬114年編了1億5000萬可是執行率都只有不到10%"},{"start":3763.786,"end":3770.863,"text":"那我知道最近的特別預算我們還編了40億來採購無人機等等的這些做法那我想要請教編了這麼多的預算"},{"start":3772.267,"end":3792.815,"text":"而且之前我也問過主委我們最貴的一台建載機還高達9000多萬那請問你們這麼多龐大的預算從過去以來一直都執行不利那請教主委你們有沒有一個方法把從112年的預算沒有執行好的未來要如何來去做跟委員報告就是說我們已經準備要上網"},{"start":3794.256,"end":3798.458,"text":"海巡是整個政府機關最早用無人機所以他採購無人機然後使用的經驗是在最前端因此有一些嘗試錯誤的部分"},{"start":3815.748,"end":3834.598,"text":"但是第二波的这一波的采购我们呢就野心比较大所以我们要求客制化那来标的国内的业者呢我们也希望国产化嘛他就说好我做得到结果最后那个客制化的的要求超过他的能力是出了这个问题"},{"start":3835.679,"end":3862.737,"text":"因為已經三年都沒有辦法達成那現在我們又重新上網那我們希望這一次因為到現在的時候我們國內其實都已經蠻成熟了已經有比較成熟的這個能力跟商品了所以我們這一次應該就可以圓滿的來完成採購好 那我最後再給主席再給我30秒時間那今年準備要使用特別預算3億多來採購無人機目前的進度到如何"},{"start":3864.306,"end":3871.918,"text":"我們目前是第一階段在上網徵求商請了有沒有機會達成任務 3億多的預算"},{"start":3875.518,"end":3893.11,"text":"這個部分海巡一直告訴我沒有問題好 那我本席會繼續來監督我是希望說主委我們國家投入很多預算也給了援額所以人員缺乏以及對基層人員的照顧以及第三個我們台灣無人機尤其海巡方面的無人機希望主委這邊再跟我們所有同仁一起努力謝謝"},{"start":3900.606,"end":3904.008,"text":"謝謝 感謝張志倫委員執行我們請張鴻祿委員執行我請主委跟署長請主委跟署長署長張委員好"},{"start":3926.632,"end":3937.041,"text":"來 主委有個問題啦我們這個海洋三法那我們現在海域管理法我們的進度不知道如何"},{"start":3937.985,"end":3963.653,"text":"跟委員報告委員一直很關心這件事情也一直叮嚀我們那麼目前有一個進度就是說海陸分治之下那他的大綱我們大綱討論完畢那我是希望說你大綱討論完畢然後要化為文字的這個過程呢我們就先來做跨部會的整合不要等到文字出來了才去做跨部會整合"},{"start":3964.173,"end":3985.259,"text":"所以我們大綱確定的時候已經開過會大綱目前確定方向也確定然後要來開始進行就這個大綱就是未來的大架構要來做跨部會整合因為這一部法律只要一制定涉及其他部會必須要同步連帶修訂的法律非常的多"},{"start":3985.839,"end":4012.657,"text":"好幾十部法律都要來修訂那其中當然最重要的修訂最多的是內政部的國土計劃法當然啦也不只國土計劃法啦我覺得跨部會啊這個農業部啊什麼的這些都要啦我們要把這個海域變成一個立體的管理這個其實要耗費相當大的功夫不過"},{"start":4014.29,"end":4034.113,"text":"為什麼會一直想說這個法律剛聽到主委有進度我覺得是好的啦不然其實現在有很多山不管地帶可能管也管不到也沒辦法處理對不對像剛剛蘇委員在質詢的你們要自己去出錢對不對"},{"start":4037.256,"end":4064.036,"text":"這個就是變成我們一直在講要怎麼做怎麼做確實實際上是還沒有做到我覺得這個如果可以加快就加快另外現在有很多的中國的船隻他們是不是有很多他們關掉AIS系統當闖入這種情況現在是不是很多 署長"},{"start":4065.021,"end":4093.088,"text":"一直都有我請署長來詳細說明公委報告這個情況我們是有查過過的是有的有沒有很多目前看起來這一個沒有很多沒有很多是就是至少在我們的水域裡面是沒有很多的在我們的水域裡面沒有很多啦但還是有嘛有好我們發現這個我們是採取合向措施"},{"start":4093.69,"end":4113.31,"text":"跟委員報告那因為在我們水運那邊我們除了透過我們自己的聯合清真真手段以外那我們也透過友軍提供不明船隻的這個動態然後我們會以我們的船去做辨識那另外特別跟委員報告我們有很多的這些暗船的偵測系統那我們可以充分的掌握這些船舶的動態"},{"start":4115.858,"end":4141.38,"text":"現在立法院也很多的立委在關注這個海嵐七法什麼的對不對那像這種關掉這個AIS的這種有一部分有可能它就是要破壞我們的海底電纜有沒有這個可能有可能有可能嘛 對啊所以我才會問你說我們發現了我們採取何種措施"},{"start":4142.153,"end":4170.41,"text":"跟委員報告那我們如果發現類似的船舶那我們現在主要的關注船舶是根據航港局提供的東京備翁有97艘具有中資背景的這些潛移輪那只要這些潛移輪進到我們的水域我們會有一定的監控那只要是長期可疑的我們都會派船去做必要的登檢對嘛 你現在就是監控跟登檢嘛是有沒有想過一件事情我們這個海嵐七法大家這樣很認真"},{"start":4171.883,"end":4190.796,"text":"下次他換鐵殼漁船來破壞你的海底電纜有沒有這個可能有可能跟委員報告那根據這個不管是各類船舶只要有類似狀況我們都是查組的標準都是一致的那我們現在海岸企劃裡面在船舶法裡面就有特別規範關閉AS他是有罰則的"},{"start":4191.641,"end":4214.163,"text":"我知道這個都有發生我現在就是提醒說狀態很多大海那麼大其實你們也很辛苦我覺得身為一個主權國家還是要有一點點強力的措施我覺得如果只有跟監看到情況不對才登檢"},{"start":4215.044,"end":4237.951,"text":"我覺得對一個主權國家我覺得好像有點不夠不知道署長你的看法跟委員報告那其實對於可疑傳播如果是違反相關規範我們是有權可以扣押然後代盤偵辦的報警檢查官代盤偵辦那有可能你也發現了一些事實才有對不對那有可能這一個"},{"start":4239.366,"end":4250.528,"text":"嫌疑人了 有可能是嫌疑傳了是我們不能驅離 不能什麼嗎根本沒辦法 如果這個還能修法通過以後就可以處理了"},{"start":4251.469,"end":4270.903,"text":"現在不行嗎現在沒有罰則現在沒有罰則但他關掉AIS的這一種也不能驅離嗎沒有罰則沒有罰則啦 暗能不能驅離啊可以啊 當然可以我們可以驅離 沒有問題所以我的意思是說像我發現這一種的也不用跟進 也不用什麼啦"},{"start":4271.463,"end":4286.557,"text":"我們是一個主權國家就把它驅離了啊各位網友其實對於可疑傳播我們會採取的第一個就是強勢的登檢如果真的很可疑我們是會登檢的那第二個部分就是我們會把它做驅離對啦 我的意思是說"},{"start":4289.161,"end":4317.268,"text":"海巡兄弟也很辛苦啦但相對於這一種的政府要有一個強力的措施啦這個措施為什麼第一個我剛剛強調的主權國家之外你讓在我們在海上的我國的漁船我國的漁民也會有安心的作用只要你有做這些漁民都會講他們就會安心我覺得我們海巡還有一個很重要的就是讓我們的漁民安心"},{"start":4318.571,"end":4337.111,"text":"這個是非常重要的就像在路上看到警察我就安心了對不對我在海上看到海巡的船然後有座位漁民就安心我覺得我們花了這麼多錢然後我們也要造艇什麼我們都支持這個就是要一個很重要讓漁民安心"},{"start":4338.152,"end":4363.571,"text":"尤其是像現在這個像我們東北角捕花蟹啊捕什麼的這個大陸的漁船 中國的漁船跑來這邊漁民是很氣啊 對不對他是跟他搶啊 對不對那我們如果有你只要有一點點作為有具體的作為我跟你講漁民啊大家就會去船了啦"},{"start":4365.312,"end":4384.207,"text":"護魚的部分我們做得很好那魚米也很依賴我們所以如果大陸的漁船進到我們的水域來我們就是一概驅離就算是你有開AIS你進來了我還是趕你走那沒有開AIS的部分如果說海蘭七法進來以後有罰則我相信那個嚇阻性會出來"},{"start":4385.163,"end":4406.543,"text":"我知道你們現在有驅離有做所以我才會說你們只要有做漁民就會說啦漁民自己會去傳啦然後漁民自己就會說這就是讓漁民安心有時候他們還來送我們罐頭這樣子對所以我說我也有聽到漁會你們有做什麼所以我才會說你們有做漁民就安心但我要強調的是說"},{"start":4409.481,"end":4426.507,"text":"該做的還是有的要強力一點啦不要一定要等到他到哪裡海域啦你明明知道這個灌飯了你這艘船還沒進到我們可以的我們就先把他趕走了嘛這漁民會給你更大的掌聲啦好謝謝好謝謝張宏路委員那我們再來請王美惠召委"},{"start":4441.451,"end":4466.125,"text":"主席 我們請管主委跟署長好 請管主委 張署長 謝謝委員好主委 在你擔任這個職務的時候我常常說我們家裡有保育教育的活動在這個過程"},{"start":4468.171,"end":4480.064,"text":"我們的審判單位都說地方的政府沒有申請因為一年去跟他們溝通看能不能申請因為自己沒有旁邊沒有海"},{"start":4485.919,"end":4493.706,"text":"大家都有權利去了解我們海洋的國家要做什麼要維護什麼要保育什麼東西這是每一個在台灣中外民國生活的百姓都應該要讓他們知道"},{"start":4505.716,"end":4527.771,"text":"在這個過程當中 主委 您也說自己沒有提議但是在我了解 自己 您跟他溝通了後他也認真去提議結尾主委 您知道嗎?一百十五年的規劃裡面 自己有提過的結尾案您現在在規劃裡面請回答一下"},{"start":4534.395,"end":4542.939,"text":"跟委員報告,我們都一直跟他們說因為我看,如果有一個官司領,如果沒有提案,我們就沒辦法跟他們報告所以一直跟他們溝通,現在每年他們都提出來主委,每年提出來的時候,你可不可以讓他們給錢給他給錢給他委員報告,因為財化法的結果"},{"start":4562.269,"end":4574.68,"text":"補助地方政府的補分每年稍微大幅就這樣刪減所以我們每年現在一定的已經給他我們農村莊園每年莊園的幾百五分之一給他了五分之一多少錢 全港喔全港的種種五分之一多少錢我如果說出來是他他拿他整案 跟你們准他整案我叫我們那裡的副主長來說明好不好"},{"start":4591.946,"end":4608.278,"text":"因為嘉義縣 嘉義市 他們提了三案他們提了三案 三案 跟你合作整案我們准了一案 因為有非常多的縣市 跟准議案的時候准議案是對一個單位要做的 文化局"},{"start":4610.458,"end":4618.207,"text":"文化局 是那你為什麼有兩萬兩案的時候沒有確診的有什麼問題因為這是開會當中大家的關係關係是 因為是大家官司都有來申請"},{"start":4627.117,"end":4637.201,"text":"我知道啦 我就是拜託主委說我們多協助有時啊 審判單位或是上班的人認為說跟我們一起去又沒用 自己跟人家想真正的主觀不好所以我們這是要教育的資訊嘛跟你說 帶兩個你沒學到他不知道"},{"start":4653.208,"end":4659.792,"text":"我現在來問你,你待兩天沒去準備啦你不知道我在說啦,因為都說要教育要做啦他有一個嘉義市實施國民中學的探索營裡面的水域計畫"},{"start":4679.373,"end":4689.879,"text":"這是全嘉義市的國中小孩子都會去那裡他申請多少?申請六十八萬他要負擔十二萬他叫你們給他領再來另外一位嘉義市的海洋保育教育推廣計畫他也申請"},{"start":4708.397,"end":4719.286,"text":"也沒有 也沒有 給你給他一個文化教育他這裏面都是教育教育 教官報教育 你都沒有給他給你合遵他文化教育"},{"start":4727.958,"end":4731.801,"text":"我們會覺得很奇怪嗎教育 我就來瞭解另外就是今年雖然補助電信會經費縮減主委 我知道補助經費影響很大 我知道但是我覺得每一個對海洋保育"},{"start":4751.857,"end":4757.759,"text":"會教育非常重要結果我們在這時候因為我都想說我們一直跟人家說我們林委我們是那些人下手那些人那我認為教育是我的故鄉我的願望我的教育不管大人小人都對海洋的保護"},{"start":4778.084,"end":4781.306,"text":"是非常了解 我在想 有一項很好的叫做漢遊受用教育這漢遊受用教育是下去學校教學生一套美國發展出來的漢遊教育的內容那有發達好培養科學家我來想辦法 來找學校對學校下去 不要對政府入面因為這是對學校下去的"},{"start":4805.783,"end":4807.884,"text":"像這種的價位對學校樂器 自己來提供如果有老師願意用這套教材來教我們全家來支持主委在這裏說 老師不敢這樣做"},{"start":4821.809,"end":4823.47,"text":"有喔 全國 全國 很多人對啦 因為自己的心都想說希望跟他們的教育 家人來合作可以做到更好我們會跟他們合作所以說 這老師跟所以說 我要說這個問題的心也希望"},{"start":4840.014,"end":4842.636,"text":"後來我們再去選的時候有一個改變因為我覺得每一個地方都需要去考慮嘛大家現在生活都變大人過去都沒有我不會要求要有要今天有"},{"start":4859.611,"end":4862.593,"text":"你這樣不可以讓人 我也覺得很奇怪因為教育的你沒有給他 環保的你沒有給他你登記都沒有嘛 你登記都沒有的時候第一年有 你對他那麼嚴 那就沒道理了啦因為我覺得錢不能亂花 我也知道他生意有限啦"},{"start":4884.529,"end":4890.135,"text":"有提起的時候,如果沒有提起,我都很糊塗,好不好主委,在這裡我再跟你講一下,剛才我們有同事說到,我們的臨時案,臨時,不好意思,主席"},{"start":4900.384,"end":4904.066,"text":"這個臨時委員會我們審計部說我們每一個層裡面的臨時委員都差不多沒有人都中間九成的層裡面都沒有人雖然層裡面有"},{"start":4922.094,"end":4923.616,"text":"你如果了解看看,有大世代嘛有的世代只有六個人而已大台有三十五個那大世代當然有差那時候沒有人有危險對,因為我就是說"},{"start":4938.894,"end":4940.956,"text":"充足是一種啦但是你要有夠是一種啦我要讓你很充足的這我也真的很抱歉要再做不夠因為我們在那陣子我們在那陣子他要托車要托四年有的要托兩年我要托國家國家要托錢貴 才有辦法"},{"start":4961.434,"end":4966.377,"text":"現在台北可以退婚可以退婚 因為有些人都年齡不夠我們這裡要去了解雖然是科技現在我有聽到妳的解說但是我們要如何去突破有啦 我現在每年每年都有拜託才好妳不然怎麼會把我們請假因為是這樣的關係我跟主委說"},{"start":4991.289,"end":4993.611,"text":"這個月十五號剛才你說 我們的靈魂一早來我們家 早上來我們家為了人的安全 不論他怎麼樣 我們當局的心地 灰色地帶我們都一定要救 但是在美國的智庫裡面 因為發覺說"},{"start":5011.906,"end":5017.829,"text":"他們的200多年都會去改變去讓人不知道的時候你們認為在過去那幾年是有問題還是沒有問題你們知道嗎來 主委你回答一下議員報告我們有資料好檢測因為是沒有開AIS的時候"},{"start":5034.618,"end":5035.179,"text":"因為主委也在業務報告說我們有看過有標準的改變因為以前我們就是說"},{"start":5053.66,"end":5054.88,"text":"你的道沙 你剛才的報告跟你們學校的報告夾在裡面我們都沒有查到 也沒有發這就是有嚇阻的作用道沙之前有發 再來現在沒有這個行為所以我們不去處理"},{"start":5075.97,"end":5089.394,"text":"那是抽刷 抽刷 抽刷 抽刷 抽刷那他就沒來啊 他是發作黨的對 發作黨的嘛所以我們以前就是發作黨的你看他現在不敢來因為我們要靠 又要發展所以他就不敢來啊所以在這裡的規定裡面主委我也知道你們大家很辛苦 很勇敢的議員 你要注意道理書"},{"start":5105.019,"end":5109.141,"text":"我們一年以上的藝術就是不可以讓你變乖所以那個黨發下去發到幾千萬 黨發下去之後現在都你...香港主委在這裡我要跟你說我們的綠燈一八十四年沒有淘汰一八十五年"},{"start":5122.97,"end":5130.32,"text":"我們有本九億七千九百六十萬有二十五個綠燈要示範我告訴你們因為這類醫生是國土論性的特別預算因為我這次的時間這麼久了"},{"start":5140.543,"end":5151.672,"text":"麻煩你所有二十五號的房子的幾位要怎麼做麻煩你給我分析 以上如果沒有機密的部分 一定都...當然喔 因為有機密的 為了國家的安全我不會要求討債 是 我要看你們的所作所為因為開 申請限制 也能夠申請 以上"},{"start":5169.704,"end":5173.346,"text":"好謝謝王美惠召委好再來我們請麥玉珍委員主席好有請我們的主委管主委請到主委"},{"start":5200.424,"end":5229.586,"text":"外委員好主委好我們海巡送遞真的很辛苦除了要抓偷渡的 抓走私的還有查毒品還要應對業界的捕魚 護魚對岸灰色地帶的挑釁行為這些工作量幾乎是一直累積 一直紮在一起請教我們的主委"},{"start":5230.63,"end":5254.104,"text":"这几年美国、中国、新加坡还有很多国家都用无人船还有运用海巡的任务上我们在台湾也在2014年6月8月做过无人船的测试但是到现在我们看不到明确部署的方向"},{"start":5255.404,"end":5282.142,"text":"還有海巡人員的工作範圍越來越廣但是又人力不足無人機載具的無人就是無人載具的應該最直接的解方之一請問我們的海委會有沒有把這個無人載具的納入中長城的計畫目前海巡署對無人載具的規劃是怎麼樣有沒有"},{"start":5285.365,"end":5291.539,"text":"就是設定具體的時程因為我們今天沒有看到報告裡面也沒有說"},{"start":5292.5,"end":5316.844,"text":"好 謝謝麥委員關心這確實是未來發展一個非常重要的面向我們一定要趕上這個新的時代所以我們有新的計畫那也非常謝謝大院的支持委員也都有同意讓我們的預算有通過那委員會看到說我們目前還沒有部署的原因"},{"start":5317.504,"end":5330.741,"text":"是因為預算是編在明年開始那明年我們就會有大幅度的部署包括無人機跟無人艇明年才要因為我們看到你們有測試所以我們都還沒有看到"},{"start":5333.664,"end":5341.046,"text":"所以說好如果是明年明年的話我們就要 無人機的話都在訓練了明年的話我們想要請教一下說無人船的打算是國造還是說委託民間團體來合作目前因為沒有看到說進行的"},{"start":5355.917,"end":5382.452,"text":"技术评估或者测试报告因为你说有测试我们没有看到所以测试的结果到底如何我们传承聚含力还有影像的输出还有就是眼端操作的稳定性有没有达到我们要的标准这些都有测试各位委员报告那个测试是民间办"},{"start":5383.032,"end":5387.755,"text":"民間辦所以就是委任民間嘛沒有 跟我們無關他們自己要展示他們的商品給我們看這樣子所以商品是你們委任他們去做不是 國內的造船廠他自己也要研發他自己也要跟上世界的腳步所以他們自己就都有去研發了那他們研發的東西不見得符合我們的需要他們要去改"},{"start":5411.387,"end":5426.155,"text":"所以他們研發了以後到可以展現給大家看的時候他們自己辦的測試跟我們無關所以我們剛才你說我們的那個已經在用明年的預算現在就是別人的"},{"start":5427.656,"end":5430.879,"text":"沒有委員這是兩回事就是您看到的那個測試是國內的無人艇的測試那我們明年要買的時候我們會開國際標就是全世界還有包括國內他們都可以來標我們看到你們是在6月8月的時候就有做測試啊"},{"start":5448.331,"end":5453.757,"text":"不是我們做的測試不是你們做的測試民間所以船是民間買的你的預算是船是民間造的是造船廠造船廠做測試測試給我們看把他們做出來的成果測試給大家看我們有派人去看到處都有派人去看"},{"start":5469.315,"end":5481.593,"text":"所以說我們到現在我們都沒有再用這樣子的工具來去我們現在因為我剛才講的無人船沒有無人機有無人船這樣子的話那麼現在就是"},{"start":5484.978,"end":5489.122,"text":"無人船 我們現在沒有 還沒有剛才我問的是測試測試的是無人船無人船測試也是他們在做 不是我們所以我們也沒有說要去做這件事情我們當然也很希望各家都去測試給我們看"},{"start":5509.522,"end":5515.304,"text":"包括國外的都來測試給我們看但是現在很多國家都要用無人船來去做我們帶巡海或者是海防的能力的轉型因為現在我們的敵情變化那麼快所以我們無人載具的不只是輔助委員有看到關鍵是 我們要做我們"},{"start":5535.69,"end":5556.23,"text":"我們不能就是就是輔助而已我們希望的是說更減少人力的封卸這樣才是我們要的工具我們不只是去抗而已我們希望真的是落實因為現在現在沒有落實我們真的海巡送地很"},{"start":5556.83,"end":5570.073,"text":"很辛苦又很危險公務員報告無人機的部分都在訓練飛手無人船 我說的無人船無人機的是無人機還有無人船我們要問的是無人船我們也要弄很厲害的無人機對 我知道但是我們現在無人船的要沒有就是具體的你說測試但是我們沒有看到"},{"start":5581.595,"end":5591.18,"text":"說你們測試是別人 就是這些廠商在測試給你們看但是你們也要真正的落實我們要買嘛 我們是買家嘛他們要秀給我們看嘛對啊 但是秀那麼久了嘛 我的意思是說秀那麼久了 我們這邊有沒有什麼就是說 知道這樣子的我們要的一個具體的一個數據啦 不是只有去看"},{"start":5607.049,"end":5607.63,"text":"所以你們車的過程沒有任何的一個"},{"start":5623.005,"end":5635.591,"text":"考量或者是說數據啊什麼都沒有民間有民間的數據啦所以你們就我們都有收集我們有收集我們都收集回來研究收集回來研究還有第二個就是說我們現在就是寒流來一波又一波我們是陪海岸東北角還有就是龜山島"},{"start":5648.897,"end":5653.36,"text":"還有澎渣嶼的這些地方我們有受到很多的懲罰所以因為現在寒流越來越多就是有八九度隨著就是風雨還有就是海象的惡劣但是我們海巡送堤就是無論是多冷多風還是多危險他們都要出海對不對所以但是呢我們很多懲罰是說"},{"start":5677.173,"end":5699.356,"text":"他們的防寒外套還有防寒褲還有雨衣還有手套就只是一套而已而且就是好幾年的就是很舊的裝備有的破了落水的還有保暖不夠很多兄弟他們自己還要去買一些羽毛衣所以我們想要"},{"start":5700.777,"end":5717.738,"text":"我們主委這邊這樣子說得過去嗎?對他們公平嗎?不會喔 委員我們那個遇寒喔 那些都泡泡很高的我理導有那種很保暖的大衣給他們我給書長 還是給書長給委員報告好不好"},{"start":5720.04,"end":5743.471,"text":"因為我們有收到陳情跟委員報告我們現在分兩個段就是第一次同仁報到的時候我們就會發給他一套海巡外套其實他是很厚的另外針對外離島的部分我們會再加發一件海巡的大衣他是長的比較保暖的部分另外這些東西還包括防環帽還有包括手套"},{"start":5744.671,"end":5771.001,"text":"防寒衣裡面的那件防寒衣都是有的那所以基本上它是夠的那在第二次像剛剛委員講說就很久沒有發我們第二次發的時候就變成選項的項目就是說我們有多少經費那你去點選我今年是要買換我的外套換了那我就選我要這一年要撥補的是外套那我的如果是裡面的置物壞掉我就選它但是我們一定的價格因為它是變預算的關係"},{"start":5771.821,"end":5790.301,"text":"讓他自己去點選所以在基本上在防寒的部分我們對通常照顧是非常多的那像明年開始我們就編了包括外地阿波我們就編了7600件的那個大衣給他們所以每一個人都會有一件很好的防寒大衣好 我們希望就是一次性你們有沒有做一次性的全國盤點全國的盤點"},{"start":5793.82,"end":5812.18,"text":"因为现在这群孩子在外面就是在海边还有风吹什么的冒着就是生命危险来守护我们的国家所以我们希望说他们要有保暖我们要做得到所以希望就是说我们组委这边"},{"start":5814.344,"end":5839.198,"text":"針對就是我們外島有哪一單位最缺的或者你掌握清楚嗎所以我們希望你要做這個盤點我們就說有但是還有人跟我們陳情就表示你們就沒有盤點沒有給足跟委員報告就是鬼人現在照片看的是我們的大衣而是那個外套海巡的防航外套我們另外還有一件是防航大衣所以不一樣的"},{"start":5841.68,"end":5856.951,"text":"我們知道因為他跟我們澄清跟我們說的很清楚所以我們希望的就是說防寒衣物到底有配就是分配有多少委員關心的外離島 麻煩委員回答他"},{"start":5858.332,"end":5879.532,"text":"關心的外離島的重磅防寒大衣100%每個人都有所以我們希望說這個要給我們全國的盤點如果是說我們有但是說有想誰要你就給沒有要就沒給這樣子的話是真的是不公平我們希望的是說你們要全國"},{"start":5880.886,"end":5904.609,"text":"全国要去盘点那个是第二次啦对我们是知道但是我们看到里面的预算里面没有写到说就是防寒衣你们是有有筹备装备要去采购但是没有没有明确啦所以我们希望的是说全国就是要盘点还有所有的外套防寒裤啊衣服啊手套这一些"},{"start":5905.49,"end":5906.511,"text":"庫存狀況或者是說立即採購優先補足就是我們的北海岸東北角就是外"},{"start":5915.734,"end":5938.103,"text":"外島的就是缺口還有就是跨部會議看要怎麼協調就是因為剛才都有講到預算所以我們必要就是說採購的部分要讓我們大家穿得暖不是名牌他們要穿得暖我們本來服裝費一個人六千七被刪到剩下三千了"},{"start":5939.563,"end":5960.668,"text":"對啦 這個我來想辦法啦 好不好所以這兩個 兩件事情因為時間有限 不好意思一個人六千 七改成一個人三千這個不夠啦 這個不行啦 拜託委員支持這不是不夠不行的問題 現在你就扯到是這個預算我們要說你全國盤點"},{"start":5962.568,"end":5967.81,"text":"天國盤點的問題 還有我們看到預函絕對百分之百我們一定都給還有第一次我們絕對百分之百強制給時間有關係主委因為不管是說你有沒有說編列預算如果沒有編預算可能就是要跟行政院怎麼樣去徵詐預算因為是有人跟我們反應跟我們陳情我們才要"},{"start":5990.66,"end":6018.662,"text":"要求所以我就時間關係就是兩個重點第一個就是今天就是兩個問題一個就是科技升級就是我們的就是無人船就是要載具要清楚我們明年嘛明年不能只是看要有一個數據要有哪一個廠商對我們最好的哪一個我們採購這個要有嗎不是我們都有去看明年就買進來了就是第一"},{"start":6019.082,"end":6036.569,"text":"还有第二个就是人员的照顾无人载具要导入是海防就是转型的关键现在所以我们这装备要补足还有就是第一线的送递要能撑到就是基本的保障"},{"start":6037.049,"end":6040.01,"text":"這兩項的話你可以說要怎麼樣去幫忙去保證比較落實所以我們希望就是在一個月內可以提出就是你有期看無人床他們的測試什麼的因為我們要的是"},{"start":6055.575,"end":6059.397,"text":"要購買要花錢花在刀口上對不對要完整給我們因為我們是海防不只是防線是跟的重要的是信任還有希望我們的海巡送地他們就是有科技可以用現在都科技了還有溫度的衣服讓他們可以防暖這事情要有安全最好就是科技安全人員安全對不對"},{"start":6085.029,"end":6105.342,"text":"这样子的话我们真正的才是说我们的海巡我们国防的任性这样子才达到就是我们要的花钱花在刀口上嘛对不对这样子对我们国家是更好啦我们要的是这样子就是让我们宋帝安心照顾好让他们出海"},{"start":6106.723,"end":6129.477,"text":"還沒刮到 大家晚上要去做工作 還沒刮還要洗我們在裡面可以穿暖 又有暖氣 他們出去不一樣所以他們的反應是這樣所以希望我們主委就是全國盤點的需求 好嗎 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝麥正委員質詢 我們現在要黃姐委員質詢"},{"start":6138.91,"end":6141.918,"text":"謝謝主席我們請管主委加管主委"},{"start":6143.035,"end":6170.16,"text":"然後時間寶貴啦大家的時間也要稍微控制一下好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝管主委我今天有三個題目要請教第一個是我們在九月底的時候我跟張瑞雄委員 陳瑩委員還有張雅玲委員我們一起開了一個人船碰壁的公聽會那時候我們邀請了海巡署其實也有到現場那有自由潛水協會非常多在潛水的夥伴"},{"start":6170.62,"end":6199.054,"text":"也都在現場提出非常好的建議那當時我們的結論是說希望我們海委會可以回去研議一個人傳碰壁的相關的指引那你們指引出來之後才能讓交通部那邊去訂更細則的人傳碰壁的規則那所以我在這邊想要請教的是從9月底到現在你們有沒有新的進度預計什麼時候可以把這個指引訂出來呢各位委員報告草案已經出來了"},{"start":6200.054,"end":6220.487,"text":"那草案出來以後當然回歸業務主管機關他們要去做所以我們會跟業務主管機關部門跨部會跟他們協商但是我們其實呢各個行動都同步在進行指引歸指引現在有進度但是未來的行動"},{"start":6221.367,"end":6226.149,"text":"行動方案更快行動方案現在確定了也謝謝委員關心那委員的記者會也讓全國都非常的關心這件事情因為長期都關心自有潛水我知道我們現在就是決定說"},{"start":6237.992,"end":6246.381,"text":"每一年的熱季譬如說三個月份的熱季那我們出錢沒關係雖然我們不是業務主管部門但是我們來出錢沒關係我們出錢呢跟漁會來合作那漁會呢就在這三個月的時候隨時在海上做勸導跟戒護安全"},{"start":6256.491,"end":6271.604,"text":"OK 是那這個會很有效那指引的話就是最主要就是說你要如何走這個申請的程序啊然後如何在防範這個避碰這個避碰如何的防範"},{"start":6273.065,"end":6290.317,"text":"那個部分的指引草案都做好了謝謝委員的提出那我當然希望這個指引可以盡快出來那也很感謝我們行動優先啦因為這是最重要的因為我們當初九月會開這個記者會這個座談會是因為今年五月到七月其實發生了三起的死傷"},{"start":6291.798,"end":6306.995,"text":"那這其實蠻令人震驚的喔因為其實我們海洋是大家共用的那但是呢當漁船跟這一些在潛水的人潛水員之間如果發生意外其實是大家很容易有一些摩擦所以海上的交通規則確實蠻重要的"},{"start":6308.777,"end":6330.008,"text":"本來我們是希望保障本來我們是希望更早時候海委會出來協調啦但是觀光署說沒問題他們自己就會先來協調那所以就讓觀光署也先做協調但是最後的話我看時間也不能拖所以最後我們還會出來我們處長想到這個方法我覺得很好也給處長一個肯定就是說他用這個行動方案我覺得有效"},{"start":6338.092,"end":6359.668,"text":"好太棒了好謝謝我們海委會優先處理這個部分因為我還是要講我希望到時候的指引是包括因為其實國際上已經有很多參考的案例我們先把草案給委員好啊沒問題草案可以先給我參考包括說這個潛水旗的規範就是說你去潛水至少要有潛水旗嘛然後一定的大小一定的規範就是讓漁船都看得到"},{"start":6360.268,"end":6373.356,"text":"然後漁船靠近的時候距離幾海里還有那個海域的標示要出來沒錯 沒錯然後要放慢多少速度然後在多少的範圍裡面就要拉多近的時候就要放慢這個一定都要放進去這個我們剛好都有好 對因為其實自由潛水協會給我們非常多的建議我都覺得國際上都做的"},{"start":6379.36,"end":6397.423,"text":"做得到了台灣一定也做得到我們是一個海洋國家從那個什麼時候開始我都還記得就是從那個保險開始是的沒錯沒錯好謝謝主委那再來第二個我想要對我們署長也在這裡這個就是因為其實最近日本首相高市長苗有提到他在預算委員會答詢的時候"},{"start":6398.704,"end":6426.887,"text":"有時候如果台灣有事可能也會構成日本行使集體自衛權的成立危機事態那當然我覺得這個其實跟台灣也非常有關係因為他們是願意為了台灣挺身而出嘛那其實我們跟日本之間一直都有關於這個海難救助的聯合演訓我知道包括跟菲律賓也都有都是這樣單邊的所以我在這邊想要請教兩個問題一個是我知道說今年六月在日本鹿兒島跟"},{"start":6428.208,"end":6456.247,"text":"有一個美日飛的聯合演訓也就是說他們是一個更多邊的所以第一個有沒有機會擴大聯合演訓的對象把美日飛跟台灣大家進行一個更大型的聯合演訓這是第一個問題第二個有沒有機會擴大聯合演訓的項目因為我們現在都還是做海難救助嘛那我希望有沒有機會把海纜的防範一起納進去因為我們知道說現在海纜是"},{"start":6458.008,"end":6484.381,"text":"重中之重啊因為包括說最近美國其實也出了一份報告說如果台灣24條海欄都被受到中國影響的話那我們每天經濟的損失是17.3億然後呢我們政府會完全的癱瘓軍事也會受到影響這是非常非常嚴重的警告所以海欄現在我們在修海欄七法那相關的演訓我認為也是一個必要的項目"},{"start":6486.189,"end":6510.116,"text":"這邊特別跟委託回答委員第一個問題就是有關這個聯合演訓的部分那我們現在跟日本 菲律賓 還有美國我們現在是在海上是有做相關的類似的這個聯合演訓但比較是單邊嘛對 但是在實兵部分我們這次也在推就是說希望能夠3加1實兵直接上去做好 太棒了那這是我們現在的目標啦這是要"},{"start":6510.636,"end":6536.366,"text":"這個要做的部分那第二個部分就是有關剛剛委員提示的部分就是有關海嵐合作那其實我們跟周邊國家對於海嵐這個案件都有互相做聯繫跟做必要的這些情質的交往但是跟特別跟委員報告我們在處理鴻泰58的時候這個案例是在全球非常經典成功的案例那我們也到其他國家去做宣導那我們現在也有很多國家到我們這邊來取經就是我們"},{"start":6538.707,"end":6564.312,"text":"取締這個案件成功的案例扣船扣人罰款然後都就是人也可以逮到嘛這是我們可以目前做到非常強力的執法那我也希望海蘭七法通過之後我們就有強而有力的法律工具去處理這些人跟船那聯合演訓的部分拜託美日非如果可以做到多邊演習我們現在正積極在推啦因為各方有各方的考量但我們這是我們的目標"},{"start":6565.072,"end":6589.19,"text":"好太好了謝謝署長的說明那最後一個我們想要請海保署好那一點時間我在這邊直接快速的講就是金屯展演的部分因為其實最近有一個在有一個很有名的一個網路的網紅在拍法國海洋一個廢棄的海洋公園裡面一個虎鯨的影片就是當然借這個例子我是要講說我們台灣現在"},{"start":6589.99,"end":6612.089,"text":"其實都有努力的要輔導轉型說讓金屯的展演盡量朝向是如果可以避免就不要那如果是要展演的話希望是生態導向這個是我們目前的目標但是就我所知現在我們的耶溜海洋世界跟遠雄海洋公園其實都還是有相關的展演然後最近他們都還在申請展演的許可證"},{"start":6613.01,"end":6636.287,"text":"的展演以及新一季的那這就是我要問的接下來如果我們還保守持續的許可這一些海洋公園讓金屯繼續做這些展演的話我們是不是應該加嚴呢讓他們朝向說讓金屯展演的時候不要是那麼娛樂性的那麼傷害這些動物本身的可以更注重動物倫理的"},{"start":6637.763,"end":6654.285,"text":"報告委員我們現在整個台灣有三個單位有景屯就包括剛才前面兩個提到的跟我們的海生館海生館現在也有三組當然海生館沒有這種比較娛樂的表演但是我們海保署最近這幾年有推了怎麼樣讓他們轉型"},{"start":6656.147,"end":6673.645,"text":"那我們自己也有同仁會在平常的時候到這個展場去當秘密課就是監督他們是不是有違反這些動物圈或是他們在展演的部分因為我們也有在這兩年也有針對這些鯨豚的部分圈養的部分"},{"start":6674.426,"end":6695.957,"text":"是不是能夠野放或是是不是能夠讓他們這個不要去展演這些相關的這個動物圈的保護跟金輪保育的部分我們有在努力的推然後也希望各個像是這個有商業行為的這些專業能夠慢慢的轉型到以保育或是未來他們能夠回到大海裡面"},{"start":6696.601,"end":6714.33,"text":"好 謝謝那當然這是長期的目標那短期內因為這個野柳跟遠雄他們的許可證的展現已經迫在眉睫了啦所以我希望如果你們當然主管機關是地方審查嘛那可是目前看起來新北市政府花蓮縣政府都有意願讓他們繼續這樣做"},{"start":6715.931,"end":6732.686,"text":"所以我要講的是如果到時候中央有發現包括你們秘密課去巡查的時候發現這個狀態還是不行有違動物倫理有違這個鯨豚的保育那你們第一時間就把他們這個許可證收回吧各位有報告就說"},{"start":6734.835,"end":6759.713,"text":"这些曾经被用来不当的使用作展演的这些保育动物或者是金吞目前没有办法也放回大海因此他们有需要持续被照顾但是我们希望就是照顾那么照顾的时候就需要资源"},{"start":6760.928,"end":6788.158,"text":"因此我們沒有辦法馬上關掉它們因為馬上關掉它們的時候直接會影響到這些金屯怎麼辦因此我們就是輔導它們轉型目前那一些我們認為不當的展演方式都已經改掉我們希望它目前的展演是以保育為基礎之下"},{"start":6788.858,"end":6806.064,"text":"以教育為目的的一種展演的形式但是我不是365天我都看著你啊所以我就要求說那你們也一定要有秘密課去所以我目前是建立這個機制所以這個執照你沒辦法不給他為了金屯"},{"start":6806.784,"end":6829.285,"text":"但是你給牠的時候你如何的確保牠沒有來這個不當的讓牠們做違背這個動物自然習性的這個表演的這個部分我們就是用這樣的機制在監督這個方向我可以接受無論如何鯨豚自己我們可以確實的保育這些鯨豚是最重要的好 謝謝主委"},{"start":6833.231,"end":6839.075,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃姐的委員接受我們家牛西庭委員質詢謝謝主席 管主委有請家管主委牛委員好主委早安最近這附近的局勢不是太穩定那美國駐日大使格拉斯最近有講這個"},{"start":6861.909,"end":6885.758,"text":"美國堅定對日本有防衛的承諾包含尖閣諸島也就是我們所稱的釣魚台那當然啦這個中日之間的一個衝突當然會造成區域局勢的不穩定那當然就會觸碰到釣魚台的敏感神經那按照我們的憲法等等這些規定而且歷來我想不分藍綠在執政的時候都有共同宣誓嘛釣魚台當然是屬於中華民國主權的領土範圍對不對主委同意這句話對不對"},{"start":6887.376,"end":6915.548,"text":"我不但就是說在不久前我也公開在媒體說主權是我們的這個沒有退讓我最近所發表的政策白皮書也都宣示這個中華民國的主權無益那我要問大概遇到這樣子的一個不穩定的狀況大概有兩種做法也分別在我們不同時期前總統都有實踐過這個2005年的時候我們陳水扁前總統就有到彭佳瑜然後去接紀念碑的這個揭牌儀式"},{"start":6916.042,"end":6930.44,"text":"當然就是宣誓嘛 順勢就宣誓說我們政府對釣魚台的立場並沒有改變嘛這是一種態度的一種展現嘛這是一種做法那麼馬英九前總統的時候則是講說用一個比較寬的心態用一個合作為基礎的這樣的心態"},{"start":6931.901,"end":6959.661,"text":"他拋出了所謂的東海和平倡議後來催生了所謂的台日漁業協定那都是某一種層面都是面對這個問題然後宣示這個問題的一種方式那請問主委你有沒有跟行政院的平台等等或者甚至到總統等等針對最近這段時間我們打算因應這樣子的一個這個問題找上門來了嘛我們打算是用哪一種方式處理呢我們是打算比如說像陳先生總統一樣也做出在某一些時刻某一些場合做出一些強力的宣示"},{"start":6960.161,"end":6972.114,"text":"或者是說我們按照馬英九前總統過去講的所謂的和平倡議呼籲說大家把局勢穩定下來然後大家按照國際制度協議的方式來做處理現在我們政府比較傾向走哪一個方向跟委員報告我們穩定海域的局勢這個是我們堅持"},{"start":6980.851,"end":7008.895,"text":"那在這個部分我們有透過我們所急的外交的行動來表達我們的期望那另外我們的最主要的工作就是護魚跟執法那護魚跟執法的話我們今天下午也會開會在這個部分呢我們就是要很謹慎的來做好這件事情一定要保護我們的漁民在這個緊張的局勢之中我們要做好護魚的工作"},{"start":7009.495,"end":7031.272,"text":"讓我們有派一艘大艦在東北的海域這個絕對不會打折扣那至於說國家要不要以政府的立場去做主權的宣示這就不是海巡署他要去觸及的領域了我們就是做好我們的本分那其他的部分我們依照國安指示"},{"start":7033.614,"end":7046.751,"text":"來處理本席是希望在藉這個機會喊喊話這當然本席是建議當然是按照馬前總統的宣誓來走本來我們就是希望局勢穩定和平過去也有和平的倡議跟相關的協議"},{"start":7047.572,"end":7070.502,"text":"照著協議來走讓局勢降下來恐怕是一個比較適合的角色這樣我想也不失中華民國立場主權當然是我們可以稍作宣示但是和平更重要我覺得這些事情是可以適時宣示但沒關係我也尊重主委的回答因為你今天不是總統對不對所以沒有關係但你有提到說護愚的部分絕對不打折扣這一點是很好的主權的部分我剛剛也已經宣示了一次那我們就進入另外一個題目就是說"},{"start":7071.202,"end":7090.97,"text":"這政治的問題處理跟宣示是一種層面但是實際上包含你海巡執行業務的時候我們還是要討論到政策的核心也就是人員徵補的問題稍早我有聽張志倫委員跟你的質詢我也是問相關的問題因為審計部的審計報告裡面其實有講就是說海巡人力的徵補作業雖然你把希望的緣額拉得很高但是實際上徵補進來的狀況這個"},{"start":7094.653,"end":7123.033,"text":"好像是比較有限比如說111年度及112年度的均值人力並沒有辦法彌補流失是淨減少的狀況113年到10月截止審計報告的結果就是說稍微有增補但是離你的計畫目標還有很大的一段差距那麼這個均值短缺的總體缺口從109年底的47人擴大到113年10月底的867人也就是說我們都知道大家都希望海巡的人越來越多但實際上補不了這麼多人"},{"start":7123.633,"end":7151.603,"text":"這個人力缺口並沒有辦法有效的來補食啊這個這個主委啊我們軍人待遇條例修正之後啊這海軍署有沒有幫軍人加薪有沒有邊境預算跟委員報告預算的問題我想大家都知道答案我也知道委員很包容我們在這個部分我的立場委員也知道那人力的部分的話我們今年到年底會縮短那個差距"},{"start":7152.483,"end":7181.035,"text":"會縮短到792人不過聽到你有講說EWE有撥一部分人進來就是說我們會縮短到792人以外這個是我們招募的部分然後另外EWE會撥補所以會大幅的縮小我現在就擔心的就是說你如果要把這個數字的缺口彌補起來你當然從EWE裡面去增補一些人力當然也是你可以講這是沒有辦法中的辦法但是其實我們當然希望海巡現在的角色其實是最吃重的對不對又要護魚然後局勢又不是那麼的穩定"},{"start":7181.975,"end":7200.3,"text":"所以其實壓力很大嘛對不對所以最正本清源的方式還是從專業的君子人力去彌補嘛還有科技我們明年科技導入以後人力會受到我覺得最重要的還是人力的增補因為你回覆審計部你是這樣說的你說我的人力成長第一要多元管道經用這大家都知道"},{"start":7200.64,"end":7224.717,"text":"第二你要講人人都是招募員其實就跟一般這個志願役弟兄在募兵的時候大家都要協助招募的概念是一樣的但最近唯一能夠有效提升招募優先的其實就是軍人待遇條例的落實總統在四月份的那一波加薪已經有相當程度四月一號已經有但顯然你的額度還差很多你如果說這一波的加薪有效果的話"},{"start":7225.117,"end":7239.658,"text":"你不會要調151的人去補缺口我最近在算一個數字就是說如果軍人加薪到我們三獨通過的版本的話那我們警職要加多少文職要加多少這是我待會要跟你討論的問題那警職呢警職如果沒有加的話"},{"start":7240.399,"end":7252.148,"text":"我們海上更辛苦沒錯這就是但是海上待遇卻我們一段一段來解決問題我想主委也不會反對當然這個一樣跟剛剛那一題一樣我覺得是需要配套不是你能做主的題目我覺得是一定要人事行政專業一起協商但是去把配套全部處理好沒錯但是目前這樣真的是僵局你可以我就直接問主委一個問題直接幫軍人加薪有沒有助於"},{"start":7264.497,"end":7266.821,"text":"招募的效果嗎你覺得有沒有幫助委員4月份的那個部分4月份的那個部分給予軍人的士氣很大的提升那也穩住了我們軍警文這種機構之間的橫向的平衡"},{"start":7280.598,"end":7309.12,"text":"那現在就是說出現了橫向不平衡是一個新的問題好 橫向不平衡那我就順著這個問題往下講所以這個僵局我非常希望來這個僵局我非常希望應該要本於專業然後用協商來解決好 那我們現在就是靜待視線這樣靜待視線 好嘛反正我講你沒辦法做主就是這個原因嘛沒關係 我也不為難你艦隊分署有講啦就是人力缺口的部分艦隊分署上庭了我們都一直在演繹我們都一直在演繹"},{"start":7310.44,"end":7336.854,"text":"艦隊的人力確保其實有一個合理性在裡面是警職嘛艦隊是不是警職 上庭是不是警職我現在有點擔心因為其實理論上大家認知海巡的工作上庭其實等於是海巡各項工作裡面最辛苦壓力最大的嘛 對不對然後他是警職 所以就會出現這個組委是否同意會有點同工不同酬的狀態也就是說警職人員去做幾乎是軍職的工作但是待遇不一樣 會不會有這個問題我舉一個例子好不好"},{"start":7338.171,"end":7356.724,"text":"如果以三讀通過來講的話喔哨位剛考進來第一年他的薪水比在海上十年還要高對 所以警職也要這個失衡齁好 沒關係這個失衡需要專業需要人事行政的專業導入不是 你先回答我的問題嘛是不是"},{"start":7357.484,"end":7385.87,"text":"警職人員要上庭做的事情其實跟軍人強度其實是差不多的嘛但是制度上的設計讓他有不同的角色不一樣職法的素養很深我問你的是工作的強度嘛職法的性質當然不一樣這大家都知道啊目前當然不是跟國軍的軍職比以海巡來講警職的強度非常的高警職的強度非常高甚至跟軍職都接近或甚至一樣對不對有這個狀況對不對甚至於比軍職高還更高講得真好"},{"start":7387.52,"end":7409.538,"text":"主委你站不站著我們來修正相關的法令幫警職也一起加薪委員真的導入人事行政的專業行政立法一定要透過協商來解決這個問題我不反對透過協商來解決這個問題但是都沒有處理的時候行政權就只能夠依賴憲法的解釋先來解套我們今天在這邊討論海巡內部的軍職跟警職是不是有同工不同酬的狀況的時候"},{"start":7415.563,"end":7432.363,"text":"不就是在討論在協商嗎修法以後非常嚴重對不對那所以看起來修法以後失衡非常嚴重主委你應該贊成海巡內部的軍警的待遇緊急症對不對而且低階的薪水比高階的還要高就差很多嘛有私人狀況那支持不支持警察也同步調整"},{"start":7433.084,"end":7441.027,"text":"我們現在要因為你海巡總體面對人力缺口的問題嘛我支持的不是再去單獨然後就沒有人事行政專業導入的情況之下再修出一個又有問題的法這個我不支持我絕對不支持一定無論如何要有人事行政專業導入這個非常重要人力有一個總體缺口你的招募出現了困難甚至你要到你軍警你要人身都是招募員現在我們二等兵"},{"start":7460.896,"end":7487.483,"text":"第一年的薪水跟講師的薪水一樣你把話聽完主席你總要讓他把問題聽完我會給他時間回答啦好不好我們時間也剩不多我們要收個尾現在面對人力征服的問題對不對你講人人都是招募員表示壓力很大你在警職的人力缺口你甚至要去找警大跟警專去調人所以表示客觀的結構來講你海巡有人力缺口的問題加薪是一個可以解決這個問題的方法"},{"start":7489.622,"end":7511.696,"text":"你應該不會反對這件事然後我剛剛還問了是不是有同工不同酬的問題要以人事行政專業的考量之下去考量行之結構的問題這非常的堅持這一點我真的非常堅持你可以堅持但你要不要提出一個版本呢一定要有人事行政專業我覺得一定要有人事行政專業導入的情況之下才能夠有可行性"},{"start":7514.298,"end":7535.871,"text":"我從不反對你從政府的角度包含考量你的人事行政專業去提一個版本所以4月1號的那一波4月1號的那一波就是有人事行政考量要不要幫警察警職人員海軍裡面的警職人員既然他工作強度都超過軍人要不要幫他們加薪警職人員的加薪我們都正在做我們從他們的海上"},{"start":7537.012,"end":7546.106,"text":"這個海上加擠我們要求海上加擠不能夠三十幾年沒有調我們現在正在處理現在正在那你一開始就講這個事就好了嘛警察的待遇不夠高有適合所以我要調整對不對那個不是透過修法"},{"start":7552.415,"end":7575.021,"text":"沒關係 你把相關的資料你把相關的資料來做提供因為我們今天討論 花這麼多時間討論辯論就是要解決人力缺口我希望透過改善待遇的方式來處理好不好 你把你的軍警文啊分工薪酬狀況困境通通你一個報告來 大家好好來討論這個事嘛好不好 我不反對用協商的方式處理"},{"start":7575.581,"end":7594.371,"text":"但是我反對我們海上職務佳績有在出現沒關係你把工作分工薪酬的失衡跟問題跟可能目前你解決方法跟進度通通你報告讓內政委員會了解這樣我們就了解了啊委員我會跟你報告好可以沒有問題好不好謝謝感謝牛西庭委員質詢人家李博義委員質詢"},{"start":7613.117,"end":7619.34,"text":"謝謝有請管主委跟張署長加管主委張署長李委員好謝謝主委我改變一下我原本要質詢的順序啦其實從不要說從今年4月我們軍職的調整之後啦那延續剛剛上一個問題那還有包含我們這個"},{"start":7640.453,"end":7668.856,"text":"警察同仁的外勤的0到6点的每个小时100块的这个勤务的加急来讲其实那个时候行政院的人事总处长就有讲了一句话就是这个警察的内外勤以及海巡弟兄们的0点到6点的内外勤他牵涉到不止警职那牵涉到军职等等一并的考量由立法单位监督单位"},{"start":7669.766,"end":7693.551,"text":"來提升某一個這個家籍的話很容易就造成失衡我想這這個就是剛剛管主委你的最想要表達的事情是這一個所以主委其實是想要提升但是要提升必須要兼顧到所有包含我們海巡人員軍職警職還有其他義務役同仁等等的這一些待遇共同來看"},{"start":7694.051,"end":7709.303,"text":"大家的工作的強度共同來看大家工作的危險性一併做一個考量由行政單位一起來做一個提出來一起來做一個提升我覺得這個是主委剛剛想要表達的意思那個結果才會有可行性"},{"start":7710.043,"end":7728.385,"text":"那也才會有利於組織的發展那如果沒有可行性那我覺得對同仁來講你也沒有照顧到他你只是讓他只是說立法院這邊想要做人情給某個然後他會從升高的期望這樣反而變成不公平嘛他會從升高的期望到交"},{"start":7730.767,"end":7734.092,"text":"焦慮或者是失望我覺得這個過程對他們來講我也很不捨所以其實重點是在我們會支持行政單位跟人事總署這邊提出來的"},{"start":7744.474,"end":7764.945,"text":"怎麼樣提高而且是公平性的提高所有的人的這些待遇而不是說我今天提高這個發現這裡不公平我再來提高這個請問我們身為監督機關沒有辦法那麼兼顧希望海委會跟人事行政總署跟行政院這邊可以提出一個比較完整的版本讓我們來共同來支持"},{"start":7766.158,"end":7791.373,"text":"好謝謝主委我們會反映那有關其他家籍的部分我們有一直都在檢討那跟委員報告就是說四月份的那一波其實處理下來士氣就大增我們就就就君子的同仁就受到很大很大的激勵那也有助於我們的招募那四月份的那一波也是很大幅度四月份的那一波"},{"start":7791.913,"end":7817.792,"text":"总统也做了非常大幅度的一个调整对这个我们表示支持之外其实另外一件让我们士气大振的事情我们明年也增加了17亿的预算在人事费很好我们去年度其实在省预算的时候非常的辛苦包含这些设备交流等等的费用其实也非常辛苦一度还造成两艘舰艇可能今年无法达成让我们比较振奋的事情在我们任性特别预算里面"},{"start":7818.359,"end":7832.692,"text":"那海巡署也得到相關的149億的預算這個是讓我覺得很振奮的事情在去年度很辛苦的狀況下那今年度我們的任性特別條例裡面包含對於海空無人載具這個我覺得因為"},{"start":7833.842,"end":7857.171,"text":"連續三艘的這個艦艇的下水以及總統副總統都有來甚至在這個月的時候賴總統還來為這個希拉雅號就是我們高緯度的遠洋巡護艦來命名那當天也是4000噸級的救難艦台北艦下水其實在海巡單位海委會每一次的這個下水典禮裡面"},{"start":7857.984,"end":7875.813,"text":"那也讓我們看到的這些無人載具然後還有包含海巡監測系統的這些建制讓我們對於這些海巡人員我相信有了這些設備之後他們會更有士氣啦是這個149億請問主委這個在今年度可以完成執行嗎"},{"start":7877.379,"end":7895.604,"text":"我們現在好幾個項目都已經公開上網在尋求商情換句話說就是說明年的預算我們現在就一步一步在走採購的程序對 因為我們其實看到這些無人載具的時候我們看到這個數量不夠多"},{"start":7896.184,"end":7913.499,"text":"那有這個任性特別條例有通過這些預算我們相信對於海巡的弟兄我們非常感謝不是只有待遇提高會提振他們的士氣啦我覺得這些設備也是真正可以提高他們的士氣對 包括人力包括人力的緩解也有幫助好 謝謝來 我請張淑"},{"start":7915.502,"end":7940.355,"text":"我請這個張署長今年的鴻泰58號你剛有說這個在國際上會是一個可以被參考的案例那所以立法院這邊包含行政院這邊也在研議相關的這些修法包含傳播法包含傳播法第8條第10條對於這些自動識別系統以及航海日誌這些對於海巡的這些執法的同仁有沒有具體的幫助"},{"start":7942.725,"end":7959.511,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告那早期是就是沒有開AIS或者是變更或者是這些變造部分我們是沒有罰則的所以它航經我們的水利的時候它沒有開那我們沒有罰則最多最多我們是把它驅離那現在如果有罰則以後對我們未來的資保是非常有幫助的"},{"start":7960.111,"end":7987.433,"text":"那他也比較不會進來因為罰則罰得很重所以他們也比較不會進來對 剛剛張宏陸委員也有講那遇到這些相關可疑的船隻你們已經有記錄在案的我也支持我們直接執法就把它驅離那最近的事情有一個軍事迷他研究這些航道有一艘蒙古級的貨輪那他也是權宜輪那我們海巡監控的過程可以請署長來說明一下"},{"start":7988.577,"end":8012.738,"text":"特別跟委員報告那其實所有的船舶只要航經在我國的水域那第一時間我們會通報航港單位也就是我們的航政主管機關去做必要的這個廣播驅離那在廣播驅離不行以後會通知我們海巡組的艦船你會去做實體的驅離跟登檢那這一艘的過程你跟了多久"},{"start":8014.037,"end":8036,"text":"這艘蒙古籍的這個權益輪特別跟尾巴這艘我們是從頭到尾都有關注的他一共在那裡停留了多久你認為他的目的是什麼他主要目的是特別跟尾巴我們現在周邊有比較多的這些像權益輪那像喪後輪那他們主要用意是停泊在那裡第一個除了避風以外第二個部分是"},{"start":8036.52,"end":8052.519,"text":"因為他也算是一種貨輪也是路邊攤一樣就是說他等急貨那晚了以後再進港這個一個月就有點可疑了可是跟委員報告這種的現象是很普遍的因為他急貨急完貨以後他進港"},{"start":8053.18,"end":8069.205,"text":"那這些船都有進港紀錄也表示說它是經過我們的航港單位檢驗是沒有問題的只是說它停泊時間比較久那這個部分我們會全程用雷達監控那有違常的時候我們會派船去登檢然後如果真的有違規我們就把它代案"},{"start":8069.875,"end":8088.228,"text":"好 謝謝我們支持海巡所有的這些設備那也支持這些海巡弟兄的整體的這些服務性質看怎麼樣去做一個適當的考量的調整謝謝好 謝偉謝謝我們感謝李博裕委員我們家徐毅臻委員接受謝謝主席我們請管主委跟張署長"},{"start":8098.856,"end":8100.101,"text":"請主委署長"},{"start":8103.897,"end":8131.025,"text":"徐委員好管主委好管主委剛剛您在報告我們有關海委會在過去一個這一年來的一個報告本席也非常肯定您所率領的各單位為我們不管是在海域的執法或是海費的治理跟各項的業務其實都非常的用心謝謝委員當然我想您的報告中也有提出就是說我們現在是依據賴總統的國家希望工程"},{"start":8131.525,"end":8159.193,"text":"跟三安四法為市政的主軸那目標是要因應這個安全永續共榮的現代海洋的韌性治理那當然您在最後您也有提出來你們所面臨的四大挑戰尤其是願景跟資源的落差還有地緣政治的一個結構性的威脅所以在這邊本席要特別的請教您就是您的報告中有提到就是我們成功的應對了中國大陸的海峽雷艇2025A軍演"},{"start":8161.478,"end":8187.311,"text":"動員了17艘的艦艇3艘的船跟86艘艇而且也拒止了中國大陸民用船舶進入我國淨線制海域的做法但是這個數字的背後本席有深切的疑慮想要跟您探討一下就是在報告指出我們本年度驅離越界中國大陸的船舶高達773艘次扣留的17艘發還612萬 沒入13艘"},{"start":8190.937,"end":8204.822,"text":"請問一下主委我們目前扣留的17艘船現在如何處置都回去了我們扣留了以後然後我們就依法因為檢察官就罰他們是嗎是 然後依法那該罰還的罰還如果有刑責的該判處的會判處那你現在沒入的13艘是什麼我們目前也沒有滯留也沒有扣人我們也沒有扣人"},{"start":8219.547,"end":8237.8,"text":"譬如說最近的一艘我們罰兩百二十幾萬我們罰兩百二十幾萬那就讓他回去那如果說是依法我們要落入的我們就要拍賣請問主委我們的罰金六百一十二萬元實際上有收到多少"},{"start":8239.229,"end":8263.564,"text":"我們沒有收到錢不會讓他回去所以說就是這612萬實際上都有收到那所以說基本上我們其實就是針對這樣的越界的我們應該是該罰的就要罰嘛讓他們就是來了解不可以越界我們也有好好的照顧他們我們也有嚴格的依法處理要不然的話說實在我們每次都要動用大量的人力物力去驅離"},{"start":8264.551,"end":8293.63,"text":"那在海上這樣你追我趕變成一種消耗戰那其實呢現在的驅離扣留跟罰環的執法手段其實針對這個部分主委您知道嗎這對於越界船舶的嚇阻效果到底有多高我們某種程度來說就是說如果它越界的船來多我直接問就是說驅離之後他們再次重複越界的時間大概間隔多久"},{"start":8295.313,"end":8297.237,"text":"重複樂界的部分我們比較"},{"start":8301.598,"end":8326.672,"text":"她如果她如果去了又來去了又來的兩次的我們就帶了啦那這樣大概比例有多少就是全國13艘裡面今年13艘裡面有這種情形嗎我統計一下好不好我先請署長回答如果需要我請署長看看會後再給我資料因為我想知道最重要是如何嚇阻啦"},{"start":8327.272,"end":8354.618,"text":"因為要不然的話我們一直在海上上演這個你追我跑這樣驅趕那事實上並沒有這樣的效果他們還是一直不斷的來多元報告還是有效像我們東沙就很有效那如果有效的我們當然就要嚴格執法但是如果只是這樣子在這邊大家你追我趕的話我覺得這個我們一定要有比較嚴格的手段那當然近期因為這個日本首相高士早苗的一個言論所以現在針對釣魚台的主權聲索再次被推上台"},{"start":8356.181,"end":8371.22,"text":"台面上那現在11月16號中共的海警1307艦隊編隊進入釣魚台臨海內巡航那四艘船其中兩艘有配備機炮並聲稱是依法開展維權的巡航那請問一下主委釣魚台是誰的"},{"start":8372.165,"end":8400.033,"text":"钓鱼台是属中华民国的主权我们在政策白皮书里面说得很清楚钓鱼台是属于中华民国那它的行政管辖权是隶属于哪个地方执法的部分我们用暂定执法线因为即使是以联合国海洋法公约而言那请问一下因为现在中国跟日本三方跟我们台湾都在进行主权申索那也涉及当然最重要就是"},{"start":8400.613,"end":8422.577,"text":"漁民的作業安全所以現在有做這個護漁的動作嗎我們東北海域有一艘大艦長泰有一艘大艦那有進入到這個海域的護漁進入到釣魚台周邊12里或是有其他的群體的巡護嗎我們依依暫定執法線所以目前是有進到這個釣魚台周邊嗎去做護漁的動作嗎"},{"start":8426.858,"end":8433.462,"text":"漁船借物周邊會依照我請分署長說明我們目前賦予的任務都是依照我們漁船約署所提供漁船作業的位置所以有進入到釣魚台周邊12里嗎"},{"start":8449.361,"end":8473.216,"text":"漁船在哪裡我們就會去哪裡所以你們現在是針對我們的漁船在哪裡而並不見得是在釣魚台附近是嗎對 它會在我們台日漁業協定的作業範圍內作業所以說這個部分的話目前會不會讓外界會認為說我們其實好像國際認為說我們已經放棄了這個釣魚台的主權因為中國跟日本都在那邊聲稱他們有主權的這個"},{"start":8476.38,"end":8503.736,"text":"不會那這樣可以保證我們漁民的安全嗎是可以所以這個部分可能我想我們最重視的就是我們海上漁民的這個作業安全跟他們的一個撈權那當然在這邊最後想要請教一下這個主委的就是我們的海巡弟兄上次我們在10月16號的這個會議當中你們有提到說針對海巡人員因為當然除了你們在報告裡有講要調整"},{"start":8506.59,"end":8534.382,"text":"雷超的勤務加緊還有增加深夜圍牢勤務的這個補津貼之外呢也希望能夠在各機關的船舶海上職務加緊能夠修正調整是我們在努力對然後也希望能依此激勵同仁的士氣跟劉健的發展的一個意願那也希望說能夠在您的最後的結語希望說財政跟人力需持續的補足那請問一下主委您對於合理的"},{"start":8534.878,"end":8564.038,"text":"这个舰船人才的津贴的修正建议的具体的调幅大概是多少跟委员报告就是说我们现在海上勤务加急已经36年没有调了对那所以你们具体的这个增加的幅度大概是多少舰队目前有一个数字我会后再给委员我怕说了以后那可能就是要我想要知道你们因为事实上上次您记不记得我在这个质询的时候有跟你提到"},{"start":8564.454,"end":8583.011,"text":"其實海巡人員是不夠的那當時你們當時主委的回答是說只有在七八月份不夠因為學生畢業之後還在分發還在收訓所以人手不足所以收訓完了之後分發下來就不會不足可是今天以你的報告事實上海巡的人才是不足的"},{"start":8583.391,"end":8602.937,"text":"所以你才知道說必須要財政跟人力的這個需求的補給所以說現在我想海巡人才是不是已經持續的流失那尤其報告裡提到4艘4千噸級的這個巡防艦已經全數交船那現在會不會有這個導致這個我們這個國艦國造的新船會沒有人開呢"},{"start":8603.747,"end":8609.832,"text":"各位委員報告我們會有一段期間人足夠但是還沒辦法讓大家充裕我們一定要夠你不夠不能出海所以我剛講就是說人才若不夠該補的就要補"},{"start":8621.681,"end":8626.284,"text":"像今年警專他只給我們培訓120個我們明年希望160個那像這個水警系警察大學的水警系過去給我們20個現在我們要求40個那我們本來就希望更多嘛但是他這個學校因為我在這邊也是幫我們的海巡弟兄請命啦"},{"start":8643.653,"end":8652.46,"text":"因為其實基層的海巡弟兄真的非常辛苦那人力不足 該補就要補 好嗎是 好 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝市議長這順我們請吳清明委員這順跟吳清明這順之後的時針我們休訓五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8672.338,"end":8678.562,"text":"好啊召委我们各一位同仁请我们海洋委员会我们的管组委"},{"start":8684.648,"end":8693.655,"text":"各位好 主委好 主委辛苦了 尤其現在我看很多人在關心尤其我們可以說在這幾年 在主委大年 不管說海上的船艦 以及整個生態的保育"},{"start":8704.347,"end":8730.812,"text":"主委都是非常用心這點本職是先給妳勸頂謝謝但是現在我最近在高雅分推出我們的全民國防措施為了強化我們全民的安全意識涵蓋天災以及戰災的內容但是我看裡面很多海巡是站在我們全民的第一線尤其我們的海洋的巡邏海洋的"},{"start":8731.572,"end":8742.196,"text":"會除備但是它的執行單位有國防部教育部經濟部機關該有的機關都有唯獨我們海洋委員會的機關沒有內陸在裡面作為執行的對象這是不是在這個部分請指揮來做說明"},{"start":8751.603,"end":8778.56,"text":"可能它的重點是放在陸域的避難就是在陸上在陸域 災害 戰爭的時候主要防空避難主要是陸域但是跟海有關的海河 海上的它有把我們的翼翼巴射進去那最重要就是你如果海要求救 你要翼翼巴"},{"start":8778.96,"end":8792.047,"text":"那有在內地啦那有在內地嘛那有在內地我是問那出行單位怎麼沒有海洋委員會有求救118有在內地我們的專線好 這樣這點這樣分析了解這點是重點尤其我們海洋委員會推出海洋無障礙計畫可以說很多我們的無障礙就是要給一間我們不管說身心障礙也好一間我們的社團很多學校的學生"},{"start":8807.735,"end":8813.742,"text":"可以說大家都親近海洋這是非常好的情形希望說在這種好的情形我們一定要去推廣包含說以後台灣四面環海我們要說"},{"start":8823.496,"end":8836.395,"text":"讓我們的民眾大家都接近海洋因為我們台灣的海洋在這幾年說真的海洋因為不管保育也好海洋環境的維護也好真的是很用心這點我們想要再次傾聽"},{"start":8838.638,"end":8844.562,"text":"感謝 感謝 感謝委員好的情情 我們就要去推動了是啦 委員 以後我們南美尼今年最後一天就週末辦事因為天氣比較冷南美尼 我們六六小小有相關的活動也歡迎委員來那天 那個行程 我都很感動因為坐輪椅不便但是我確實有辦法去晃 去剃頭這大家都很感動 很高興"},{"start":8868.018,"end":8871.639,"text":"因為這有障礙我們就是要讓這些行動不方便如果說在這位這位若是可是不是說針對這些弱勢或是身心有問題的團體我們是不是可以經過來照顧甚至"},{"start":8887.089,"end":8897.559,"text":"但補助 因為車馬費會OK啦這樣才可以落實說 我們既然說有好的情形我們就要給全民大家來貢獻這是本省的看法我們現場的服務我們可以幫忙車賣費可能比較要看這個租界租界單位 看我們能不能補車賣費這點可能我們就要問租界的轉押"},{"start":8911.431,"end":8920.374,"text":"因為很多學校在學生 尤其是國小的學生他們有文化卷 現在就是我們聯絡文化部把我們害的活動也放入文化卷可以用 剛才委員你幫我提倡我現在想到這點我快要了解了解看有放入要不要"},{"start":8935.619,"end":8948.091,"text":"文化圈都有補助嘛那些文化圈如果可以用在我們家他們來這裡就一定有補助的意思因為我們小朋友他們說出籌款他們要自己去負擔"},{"start":8950.823,"end":8971.711,"text":"學生是很負擔我們學生的部分我們就很容易拿出來說我也想過我們也來做海洋消費券但是跟我說沒有錢對 這就沒有辦法了其實你說海洋消費券其實你如果說未來要推動我學校 我有學校 對這委員我們說得很對小朋友大家來接見海洋我們的海洋推做得那麼好當然是要讓他們了解"},{"start":8980.614,"end":8993.237,"text":"這是我們的責任我們繼續來關心這一點是 我說到最後我去辦公室的配合我看我們的珊瑚 我們海洋的生態都做得很好的大家都在求救 我們都在搶救珊瑚好不好好 謝謝委員關心 謝謝"},{"start":9005.333,"end":9007.494,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝吳祁銘在場接受我們休息五分鐘再繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":9036.971,"end":9037.352,"text":"沒有切過來嗎?還是要"},{"start":9411.92,"end":9415.261,"text":"謝謝我們主席王昭偉我們請海委會管主委"},{"start":9433.438,"end":9457.607,"text":"主委好本席今天針對兩個議題來跟您就教也做一下討論第一個是有關於復正航海文化我們去年其實有在台東也看到這個復正航海文化的一個成果我們也有參加很關心我們想說在這個部分再更進一步所以我也想說做一個討論那是不是可以將原住民的這個房股"},{"start":9458.107,"end":9475.817,"text":"鼓傳的這個造船的記憶來透過跟國際這個部分的一個附贈然後能夠跟國際做一個交流那我們知道您在附贈航海文化力這個部分當然有些推動了但是原住民的這個部分我們希望能夠成為一個海洋文化策略核心的這個議題很重要 對"},{"start":9478.599,"end":9501.818,"text":"對 那你們現在有在執行的有跟這個馬來西亞 新加坡等國就浮船的造船記憶還有王船信仰跟造船工具這個面向已經有一些交流那本席肯定這樣一個方向那也對台灣的整個造船記憶可以跟國際的海洋文化來透過海洋文化的平台來交流那這是很我覺得很正確的一個方向"},{"start":9503.259,"end":9521.566,"text":"但是在這個部分我想進一步請教主委也就是本席關心的這個南島文化那我們知道南島文化過去本來就是在海域這個部分其實是跟我們現在對於陸域的想像有很大的不同所以其實是可以透過南島文化去做一個更深的連結那本席私下也都跟您做一些討論"},{"start":9523.948,"end":9536.966,"text":"原住民河南島的諸國在海海 星象還有海流這個部分還有海洋 洋流等等有很長久的一個知識跟記憶這邊本席想要跟"},{"start":9537.927,"end":9555.96,"text":"主委這邊請教我們有沒有可能將原住民仿古造船的記憶那也納入官方的這個海洋文化的主軸然後來跟原民會文化部甚至您這邊其實在私下也有跟本席針對技術的這個部分像經濟部這邊本席這邊也有跟他們做一些交流"},{"start":9556.42,"end":9584.68,"text":"我們可不可以將這樣一個計畫納入海洋文化力的主軸然後來推動國家級的南島造船記憶的附贈計畫這是這個部分這是第一個部分第二個部分是西班牙其實在2011年來過台灣他的古船來過台灣他的安達魯奇亞號是很成功的案例本席這邊希望台灣能夠走出去用原住民的仿古船來進行國際文化交流"},{"start":9585.02,"end":9600.057,"text":"那當然很重要如果能夠在國內我們先有這樣一個主題性的我們真的造出來在現代可以航行的這個船那我想應該是海委會應該在我們對海洋致敬是算有一個很聚焦的主軸"},{"start":9601.118,"end":9621.703,"text":"所以西班牙都這樣子做過他們曾經來過台灣在2011年這個上海世博2010年上海世博的時候透過這樣子的方式來呈現大航海時代的文化甚至在基隆港還有宜蘭這邊都待過我相信我們絕對有能力這樣子做那本席請教主委"},{"start":9622.603,"end":9639.565,"text":"你們是不是可以支持這個打造台灣南島文化防古船的這樣一個計畫然後積極來協助各部會像原民會我們剛才講的經濟部也感謝船舶中心這邊的一個支持還有部落的工匠來推廣南島航線的文化旅程"},{"start":9640.386,"end":9668.974,"text":"非常謝謝委員委員的遠見而且有一個國際的世界觀剛好我在上個禮拜跟柯文初開會的時候我也有提到說如果我們能夠在好幾個國家委員您特別提到南島這些國家剛剛也提到了之外的西班牙因為大航海時代西班牙 荷蘭然後如果有防鼓船到台灣來我們就可以做海洋大閱兵"},{"start":9669.694,"end":9697.528,"text":"那在這個部分我們的資產很雄厚我們有剛剛委員說的竹筏我們還有蘭嶼達烏族的拼板舟是 那我希望阿美族的這個帆船也有機會是 所以目前我們是在國內推造船記憶的傳承跟復興那這一兩年下來有一些成果那也非常謝謝委員關心都到現場去給他們加油打氣"},{"start":9698.468,"end":9715.064,"text":"那委員的這個構想我們來推動那明年的話可能如果籌備來不及我們一兩年為期來籌備這樣一個大計畫我想這個對國際交流是非常非常好的一件事情謝謝主委我知道我們的召委"},{"start":9715.524,"end":9734.745,"text":"其實也是那個南島文化國際交流的這個主席所以我也希望大家這個計畫未來可以一起來推動那我相信一定做得成的西班牙都過得來我們一定會得到很大的加持有兩位委員還有趙薇謝謝接下來我很短的講一下那個上個禮拜你知道主委這邊去了彌陀的這個"},{"start":9736.166,"end":9754.139,"text":"就是那個碼頭的建制那其實地方都有在講啦所以那時候我正好也是在附近然後他們剛參加活動就跟我們說那個無障礙空間至少現在在高雄彌陀的第一個國家級的海外會幫忙推動的那當然在地也都一起合作來推動的"},{"start":9754.98,"end":9783.892,"text":"那麼剛才有委員提到就是這個所謂的支障 伸障的無障礙空間我想海委會這個部分大概全國也就仰賴你們一起來做那當然很重要一點就是說事實上現在我們在禁海的這個部分大家還是有一些法規上的限制或者是有大部分的人都願意去禁海但是整個我們海岸線的設施的建置其實還蠻匱乏的所以讓很多想要禁海的人其實不是那麼的通暢所以"},{"start":9784.952,"end":9805.647,"text":"本席這邊來做一個提醒當然硬體的改善是很重要的那個每一個地方的這個沙灘或碎石灘的地形那不是只有針對身障那一般人都已經有點困難了更何況是身障所以你們有這樣彌陀一個經驗那是不是我們可以來加速全國整個我不曉得你們在目前的整個"},{"start":9807.789,"end":9825.645,"text":"盤點上進行到什麼樣一個階段我們目前的盤點就是說第一個以場域來講我們就是無障礙那除了這個步道以外我們其實還是希望他們的洗手間更衣室等等這個下個階段也要無障礙那以米陀來講他們明年就要進行這個計畫"},{"start":9826.946,"end":9829.927,"text":"無障礙是一個重點以外我們還有一個是藍旗海岸計畫藍旗海岸計畫我們希望用國際的標準雖然我們不一定會得到國際的認證但是我們用國際的標準希望我們的海洋是綠色永續"},{"start":9845.732,"end":9862.168,"text":"另外就是安全 我們會盤點的是它的安全的設施安全的設施 我們從告示牌也好 我們從GoOcean的應用也好我們甚至於從 我們也在做AI的模擬我們要模擬溺水的狀態"},{"start":9863.829,"end":9891.014,"text":"我們希望用無人機導入AI來防止溺水希望零溺斃至於委員說的所有的海灘的動線那個部分我們目前沒有盤點到那裡比較是建議主管期間 您是建議這邊可能做一個盤點因為要做之前其實一個基礎的資訊是重要的當然你這邊對於安全這個部分委員關注的是哪一些項目的盤點"},{"start":9891.514,"end":9900.377,"text":"你們應該有一個青海無障礙躍升計畫無障礙有 無障礙我們現在盤點八個地方我們第一階段八個地方有盤點出來那整個也納入深藏整個的情境但是本席這邊是關心在整個海岸空間或海岸的沙灘等等你們是不是有針對這個部分它的差異性做一些盤點但這個部分很重要就是跟地方政府的一個合作跟了解"},{"start":9919.904,"end":9930.755,"text":"因為地方政府相對會比較有更深的一個了解每一個地方的一個差異十個地方的沙灘目前才十個本席這邊 因為前幾個禮拜您也知道本席去參加雲林三條輪正面比賽"},{"start":9936.781,"end":9954.591,"text":"很好的一個場地全國目前只剩下這邊還有風浪 風箏衝浪跟風譽對 那這個部分我們希望經費上也是繼續支持那另外就是說本席也要為園鄉來請命因為園鄉所有的設施所有的條件相對都比較就是不足"},{"start":9955.211,"end":9982.392,"text":"那像東岸的這個部分也請這個主委這邊能夠多加關注那因為在一般性的這個碼頭一般性的設施都也很匱乏那更何況深藏或支藏山原灣 山原灣東岸在山原灣我們有納入好的 那大概整個您說山原台東市區外圍然後還有成功鎮等等這些地方那也希望在海線上能夠幫忙多一些這個設施上的支持好嗎好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9988.166,"end":10004.253,"text":"謝謝我們感謝林憲竹委員這項我們家鄭振全鄭振全 鄭振全委員部在這我們家鄭天才委員這項好 召委 有請廣主委"},{"start":10017.952,"end":10046.908,"text":"加管主委政委員好 主委好在今天這個海委會的報告裡面特別提到這個重塑海岸肌肉兼容保育油氣第一個是建置共治平台扶植肌肉產業第二個是共創海岸肌肉新動力因為台灣"},{"start":10048.137,"end":10073.03,"text":"的海岸那跟原住民有這個密切關係的從屏東的這個滿洲鄉牡丹鄉一直到整個台東縣的海岸然後花蓮縣的海岸再到這個宜蘭縣南澳鄉"},{"start":10074.671,"end":10102.999,"text":"都有我們原住民的這個原鄉部落如果談到渡費期的話當然在基隆宜蘭這個也都有這個相關的這些新的記錄所以這個有這樣的一個重塑海岸記錄兼容保育油氣是不是請主委能夠說明一下這個整個的一個"},{"start":10103.806,"end":10116.624,"text":"目前的規劃推動的一個方向或者是有沒有比較具體的一個作為各位原報告有關於海岸聚落"},{"start":10117.39,"end":10138.72,"text":"這一方面的在地創生的產業扶植的部分要跟委員致歉的是說我們所做的並不是說一個全知全能的全國盤點我們還沒有做到這個地步我們目前做的是由下而上由地方提案來給我們"},{"start":10139.941,"end":10160.978,"text":"那如果地方提案來給我們輔導審議以後我們來給予他們支持所以這個部分的作業是由下而上的因此他還沒有做到這一點我們還沒有做到系統性的全國海岸聚落的產業的扶植然後都有很好的成績"},{"start":10162.179,"end":10188.727,"text":"因為產業要扶持在地的團隊也很重要所以他一定是需要有在地的團隊然後他們有發想那我們來給予他們支持所以這一點主要是以這樣的操作的方式跟委員回報所以你們現在有怎麼樣的推動的計劃因為需要有相關的計劃之後地方才可以提報依這個計劃來提報"},{"start":10192.711,"end":10219.424,"text":"是 所以我們就有加入國發會的在地創生3.0的計畫所以我們很希望就是說如果地方政府他能夠比我們更接近在現地或者是說委員如果知道說有什麼樣的聚落的資產聚落的文化元素或者是產業的潛力在地又有團隊"},{"start":10220.504,"end":10238.813,"text":"我们也很希望能够征求到好的案子让我们来扶植他们所以是国发会的那个地方创生的台东花莲有基隆有对那现在有已经在执行的吗"},{"start":10239.86,"end":10266.354,"text":"有 已经有在执行花莲详细的个案我请处长来介绍一下好吗是 包委员那在我们地方创生方面在海岸聚落我们聚焦在花莲的部分有他们的跟我们提一个有关于海女的这样的一个传统的海女有关这个花莲的部分的海女的这样的一个海女"},{"start":10267.742,"end":10284.026,"text":"他們去採集這些海菜這些貝類的知道是在哪一個哪個鄉在花蓮不好意思 花蓮在港口部落附近那裡那就是豐濱鄉對 豐濱鄉那邊還有呢台東有嗎"},{"start":10291.416,"end":10317.586,"text":"台東市他們現在提出的計畫有包括要結合陸域的一些這些文化那所以這部分也還在審議當中這個所以你們有一些相關的資料再提供給我好我們接下來這個雖然直接上跟海委會"},{"start":10319.062,"end":10348.059,"text":"没有直接的关系但是跟你的海巡署海巡署有军有警军警军警的比在海巡署比例多高军职的比例高对军职的比例大概8000多那警职的比例大概3000我的建议是这样因为现在主委很清楚现在"},{"start":10350.608,"end":10373.695,"text":"這個115年度的中央政府的總預算就卡在這個軍人的待遇條例跟這個警察的人員人事條例都就是要請這個主委要跟院長這個報告或是請託軍人待遇條例 左院長已經附屬了"},{"start":10376.448,"end":10404.405,"text":"左院長有附屬才會公布施行然後因為按照憲法徵求條文的話就是沒有知愛難行才會去附屬然後公布對不對 沒有知愛難行才會去附屬才會公布所以還是回到憲政像這個這個警察人員人事條例警察人員人事條例也經過"},{"start":10407.124,"end":10433.862,"text":"一宪法征修条文提复议复议的结果也出来了复议时如今前提立法为二分之一以上结议维持延案行政院院长应急接受该结议所以就是回到宪政遵守宪法所以这个部分要请我们共同的去努力"},{"start":10435.953,"end":10460.167,"text":"讓這個115年度的總預算趕快執行趕快審查啦所以這個部分也請這個主委這個跟院長報告這個預算看怎麼就補編嘛追加嘛都可以好 加油好啦 足足啦"},{"start":10463.465,"end":10478.928,"text":"好 感謝 感謝鄭天才委員這時候我們請楊瓊英委員因為說到醫生我們都希望好的 會建設好的醫生都支持不分什麼牌 謝謝謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請主委"},{"start":10491.991,"end":10493.213,"text":"現在要關主委兩位也好 主委好我們看到報紙報導10月30號海洋委員會主辦的我們海洋素養創新教學競賽"},{"start":10509.44,"end":10525.638,"text":"吸引了全國大概有30所學校來展示它探究的成果我也要歡喜的是在特優的部分我們的大道國中優等的部分有我們西屯國小"},{"start":10526.278,"end":10542.293,"text":"這個我等一下要講要謝謝委員大安國中還有佳作是大甲國中你不用謝謝我因為這是我們共同的理念我們希望好好的驅動委員我還是要說大家都不知道委員關心以後台中參與這個計畫的學校"},{"start":10545.416,"end":10566.361,"text":"站很前面現在已經有13個學校所以我們看到因為我們的理念一致也希望能夠海洋是全民共享的這個概念所以在目前為止我們還是停留在示範學校的校園那你接下來要怎麼做呢"},{"start":10567.13,"end":10584.447,"text":"委員 我就是來多少 做多少所以現在最重要的就是說 學校要願意參加不是來多少 做多少 也不是學校要願意 老師要願意而是我們自己本身 我們自己也都下去媒合要怎麼宣導 要怎麼媒合 這非常重要而且我今年培訓了400個種子教師"},{"start":10591.474,"end":10607.714,"text":"好 就您講的這個問題我們繼續來討論因為你要鼓勵人家來共同參與因為有的人他還沒有這個概念而且他不是那麼了解所以本期還是希望你們要多有趣媒介因為有一個好的成果開始必須去努力我們不但全部免費補助"},{"start":10608.855,"end":10625.221,"text":"我们还给他教具的费用这个你现在说还是有很多人不知道所以你必须要去宣导去媒介这是本席给你鼓励的但是目前我们有系统性的一个机制你将竞赛跟种子教师的成果"},{"start":10628.002,"end":10648.717,"text":"本席也是希望就是說你在未來能夠將這些還沒有參與的學校我們要怎麼樣去宣導去媒介讓他們有誘因可以來這是第一個那所以未來的這個四年當中你要怎麼樣特別針對於偏鄉"},{"start":10651.059,"end":10670.369,"text":"偏鄉的學校建立指標跟補強的這個方案我們本期希望的也就是說海洋教育它不是少數的一個示範而是希望一開頭本期所說的是一個全民皆有海教機會而且是海洋是全民共享"},{"start":10670.809,"end":10693.001,"text":"因為台灣是四面華海是 尤其楊偉遠一定知道就是說這一套教學方法太棒了它不是老師教它是老師帶著學生自己去發現問題 啟發問題你自己去做實驗 你自己去實證這個就是啟發性教學 就是科學教育我們不只訓練你海洋素養還在訓練未來的科學家"},{"start":10693.701,"end":10713.758,"text":"我覺得這套教法真的太好了真的太好你就是要怎麼樣在下一步它不只是停留在示範學校區而是要擴大怎麼樣的讓人家了解可以廣泛的讓大家全民共享我們更有效的來宣導跟媒合我們都補助每一個老師五萬塊"},{"start":10718.662,"end":10745.251,"text":"接下來本席要跟你請教的也就是海洋無障礙本席認為這一點非常的重要那你從彌陀漁港的這個全國首座無障礙的入水平台那這樣子的一個情況從地方到學校這已經在做青海的一個體驗而且是全民要達海洋全民共享尤其因為本席也經常在帶著孩子"},{"start":10745.771,"end":10773.26,"text":"那身障的朋友告訴了我一句話他說我真的很想飛上天我也很想潛入海裡這個讓我很感動所以我們開始帶著孩子怎麼樣飛上天去坐輕航機等等我們也帶著孩子到青海的這些的活動甚至我們帶他去抓個蛤蜊他摸到水"},{"start":10774.26,"end":10791.533,"text":"踏到這個海灘的時候那一種感動跟觸動跟它的一個體驗讓我非常的希望能夠再擴大去做所以也就是海洋無障礙的部分海中有補助一個案有那個體育大學"},{"start":10792.253,"end":10799.336,"text":"他們有來申請但是太少了對 你自己都說太少了我們一起繼續來努力推動海洋無障礙但是在海洋無障礙的先決條件我們很多的樣態也就是上次本席跟您提出的在潛水活動跟漁船作業的衝擊當然這要跨部會你也答應本席說在年底的時候會提出我們有進度了"},{"start":10817.563,"end":10842.02,"text":"有進度了我也希望在年底的時候能夠真正的去降低潛水員跟漁船間的一個風險一定大幅改善所以一定要大幅改善那我們也能夠在年底的時候告訴這個社會大眾最後一個議題也就是我們針對於現在國家管轄範圍以外區域海洋生物"},{"start":10842.76,"end":10861.665,"text":"多數性的一個保育跟永續利用的協定那全世界預估現在大概有60個國家批准那麼預估是在明年的115年1月17號要生效那這個協定包括了四大專章包括了海洋基因資源"},{"start":10862.225,"end":10875.6,"text":"海洋保護區在內的以區域為基礎的管理工具還有海洋環境影響評估以及能力建構與海洋技術的一個移轉當然它涉及到整個經濟農業"},{"start":10877.722,"end":10882.587,"text":"以及交通這各部會的一個業務所以它的影響層面是非常的廣泛所以在考量協議已經要在明年115年1月17號要生效了那當然我們針對於這樣的四大專章的議題相對的是刻不容緩"},{"start":10896.781,"end":10906.011,"text":"必須要去準備所以在這樣迫切的生效時程當中海委會我們目前您定準備好了嗎我們的相關對策怎麼樣的跟國際來接軌確保我國海洋的一個權益跟委員報告我們有兩個計畫"},{"start":10914.96,"end":10939.081,"text":"就这件事情我们有两个很坚强的团队学术界两个很坚强的团队这几年已经一路都帮着我们一路在监测这个过程然后设法去参与因为他是联合国相关我们没有办法正式参与但是我们就是辗转迂回能够参与到里面去希望能够不要过度的损害我们的利益"},{"start":10939.641,"end":10967.6,"text":"這個是最重要的所以我們有兩個很堅強的團隊持續的我們都請他們一路在做相關的計畫好 那也就是已經要執行之了所以迫切需要那維護我國海洋的權利呢我相信這是您跟我跟我們全民都希望一定要維護那你們所準備的相對的這個對策您也請書面資料一份給貝希好的 謝謝"},{"start":10973.002,"end":10977.243,"text":"謝謝我們感謝楊瓊瑩委員質詢我們請葉延之委員質詢主席請主委謝謝請管主委主委好我們現在關心一下我們那個國家安全的問題因為"},{"start":10999.051,"end":11021.827,"text":"11月中的時候有一個媒體報導他是報導11月初紐西蘭的軍艦他經過大概是經過那個台灣海峽 台海嘛然後結果那個媒體的報導當然如果說媒體報導跟事實不符你也可以澄清就是說我們的這個軍方都沒有發現他是一個軍艦然後後來他把軍艦過來之後他把軍這個"},{"start":11025.246,"end":11052.163,"text":"主委聽一下不然你不知道我要問什麼就是說他經過之後他把軍艦訊號關掉然後改成商船的訊號然後我們這邊都沒有發現是中共的那邊來驅趕之後呢我們這邊才發現然後後來呢過去還協調了幾個小時好幾個小時然後才處理然後媒體當然就有下一個標就是吊旗打個問號然後國人也會擔心那這個主要來問主委的原因是因為"},{"start":11052.881,"end":11071.702,"text":"當然你會說那個是軍方事情可是我記得最近你們也有提說希望能夠修海染7法那其中有一個是船舶法部分就是說如果有不明的船隻經過他沒有打開訊號的話你不是可以驅逐他的就是增加台海這方面的安全的保護"},{"start":11072.523,"end":11090.96,"text":"那如果出現類似的狀況我剛剛講的那個狀況就是它是軍艦它經過了它其實是有開訊號的但是它開的是商船訊號可是軍方也不知道然後海巡這邊也不知道然後反而是對岸驅逐才發生那類似這個狀況您的了解是為什麼會發生"},{"start":11092.066,"end":11121.233,"text":"各位委員報告有關於這個報導還有有關於軍艦的監控確實不屬於海巡的業務範圍那這不是推卸責任而是包括我們的雷達我們的監測的體系我們有在我們業務範圍監測的相關相對應的設備裝設備是相對應的裝設備因此在中線是現在大家對於海巡的期待不是這樣啦因為之前海巡"},{"start":11121.973,"end":11130.744,"text":"還好海軍沒辦法監控軍艦因為那時候大家海軍編了很多預算嘛有增加很多船艦啊什麼的然後"},{"start":11132.017,"end":11159.555,"text":"當時執政黨也是民進黨就說海軍現在要轉向第二海軍這種類似這種聲音應該都聽過了所以我們覺得說當然海巡如果是以國家安全的狀況的話軍方海巡只要是海上的大家都應該要協力如果說軍方漏掉的話那他因為把商船的訊號打開了那基本上如果海巡能夠補這個洞大家加強聯繫對我們台灣的安全"},{"start":11160.091,"end":11185.002,"text":"一定是比較有幫助的我們有情報的交流跟交換但這一案就剛講那個就Lost掉了嘛第二個就是因為美國國會啊薛瑞福啊這個消息你應該有看到嘛昨天參議院昨天美國國會有一個叫美中經濟暨安全檢討委員會的副主席叫薛瑞福他也做過就是前美國國防部的印太司令部的"},{"start":11185.956,"end":11213.984,"text":"助理部長他講他當然是主題是在講說如果共軍要包圍台灣要封鎖的話很快就會完成我們會反應不及那其中就有提到為什麼呢因為他們現在像海軍海警海上民兵實際上都對我們實施大量的灰色戰略然後所以這方面海警海上民兵的轉換是很快的那很快就會讓我們預警時間很慢"},{"start":11214.824,"end":11218.298,"text":"那我不知道說這個有關於向對岸海景"},{"start":11218.979,"end":11241.457,"text":"或者是民兵這一塊那海巡有因應的策略嗎我們在管轄的海域裡面我們全面監控只要是進入我們禁限制水域的海警跟公務船我們絕對是強制的我知道 你現在講的是一個原則你講的是原則說每一個個案我們都處理沒有放過任何一個個案我是覺得因為這也是美國的算是國會的報告"},{"start":11248.694,"end":11276.154,"text":"應該不會是隨便亂講的那他特別就指出來就是有把海警跟民兵特別列出來所以我們對民兵船也有掌握問題是如果以我們現在掌握當然我們願意相信海巡的狀況但我只是覺得提醒就是說如果現在連美國都講得那麼詳細的話那你有沒有針對這方面可能會有些狀況"},{"start":11277.243,"end":11285.025,"text":"提出一些因應的策略不是說只是說他有監控我們都有監控來了我們就會驅趕我覺得這講的太空了"},{"start":11285.393,"end":11313.843,"text":"这些状况我们最重要的应该模拟很多不同的我们会做很多的桌推很多的兵推还有跟邻近国家我们会做很多的连演那甚至于邻近国家他们的连演我们也都去观摩所以台海不是台湾自己的事情大家知道只要是巴士海峡的封锁或公国海峡等等这些封锁它影响的是全世界"},{"start":11314.603,"end":11327.707,"text":"他影響的是百分之九十的日本人 主委非常有信心有信心是好事好謝謝謝謝我們感謝葉延之委員接受我們請張學忠委員接受感謝蔣委好請我們的主委請管主委"},{"start":11347.533,"end":11364.608,"text":"各位好根據報告海巡君子人力缺口在一零九年的四十七年行政院在一一一年核定海巡人力關聯調整計畫理論上這幾年應該要變人力要變多了應該是這樣吧"},{"start":11373.692,"end":11389.409,"text":"是 我們的人力都一直隨著造建計畫 隨著業務有在彈性的調整當然我們看到數據 僅僅人力不增反減111年少了159人 112年少了60人"},{"start":11396.104,"end":11410.533,"text":"連續兩年的副城長雖然暗巡與鑑停能力都嚴重不足到了去年10月雖然新增60個人但距離計畫目標還少111人整體精子的缺口為809年49人5年以來"},{"start":11423.121,"end":11435.756,"text":"快速增加到一百十三年過一百六十七年最後那麼多人力軍都一直保護北京我們還一直在增加"},{"start":11437.781,"end":11460.407,"text":"教育委員報告的增加人 有一部分是害羞因為我們的害羞做新人所以我們一定要增加人這增加的人 為什麼那些人持續一直越走越多我們今年是正成長 因為今年的受益最好不會出來像這個報告的時候 跟我們現在受益又不一樣今年是正成長 有縮短那個缺額"},{"start":11461.347,"end":11470.552,"text":"我們一直會有缺額我想無論是在各行各業少子化是既定的一個原因當然我們盡力盡力要來補足人員要來增加訓練人員救護人員的人所要增加這個部分都有在做所以今年我們好不容易今年有正成長我們年底我們縮短到差不多七百多人"},{"start":11490.222,"end":11498.265,"text":"為我們這個海軍整體的人力和船艦來看是啦 嫂子的話喔 四個都欠勞不輸也欠勞 輸也欠現在國情喔 總共是海巡的艦艇有重金 高牆 沒達到"},{"start":11508.735,"end":11526.108,"text":"跟專業的人力中心的基準但是我們符合安全性所需要跟準確的操作性所需要這是我們絕對要符合所以它是有救但是沒辦法讓他們很充足我們的編制有讓他們更充足我們沒辦法達到讓他們充足的地步但是我們是達到一定要有救的地步"},{"start":11534.754,"end":11539.32,"text":"我們現在海巡在這裡真的很辛苦我們這麼多時間在這裡看到一些越界的漁村人或是一些艦艇的隊子"},{"start":11548.8,"end":11551.681,"text":"這對我們海巡協定他們第一次面對這個國家跟國家有可能的窮犯的問題我相信他們非常勇敢站在第一層來守護這個國家的尊嚴你這樣幾句話跟他們提起他們都很感謝我很感謝我代表他們很感謝我均心的都很溫柔提起"},{"start":11578.525,"end":11584.954,"text":"好 這樣 現在我們現在零環繞室問題已經是我們委任固定的像剛才我們主委有在說一定會逐一來診家"},{"start":11593.291,"end":11608.599,"text":"要很加速 一定要加速來懲戒因為我們的尊教我們尊教也不能無人但是我看到一個問題我們海委會有想要透過法規及建制的修改來懲戒我們這個領域嗎有嗎 剛剛有建制的修改"},{"start":11621.995,"end":11627.46,"text":"編制表編制表要修我跟委員報告鑑定編制表是這樣"},{"start":11631.977,"end":11638.782,"text":"我們很多的幹部 我覺得很感激 很感謝像我們書長 他本來是警察 警官結果他做書長 他變成文官 薪水減了 薪水減很多我們幹隊的幹長 什麼大副輪級長 一樣喔你現在要做幹長 你警察的身份要變成文官"},{"start":11660.603,"end":11666.266,"text":"做鑑定 做大副 做論議長更辛苦 結果你的薪水變少你警察的身份沒得起這不行 我要改 現在改過來了所以我們說的編制表的修編是要解決這個問題"},{"start":11678.772,"end":11688.044,"text":"我們要讓他...我們要讓他遺棄說他是警察的身分不是說我們要把警察...直接要求他們調去我們海巡不是...不是這樣啦是...是...這樣就好了感謝..."},{"start":11693.19,"end":11697.252,"text":"我們主委一直對著我們這個海洋會非常認真來對著我們修好我們第一項我繼續努力是照顧辛苦你了好 謝謝"},{"start":11713.147,"end":11735.222,"text":"謝謝,我們感謝鄧學忠委員質詢,我們家鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌不在,我們家陳冠廷委員陳冠廷,陳冠廷,陳冠廷不在我們家蔡依儀委員"},{"start":11736.623,"end":11742.505,"text":"蔡毅蔡毅不在我們請委員結束好謝謝主席我們請這個館主委館主委"},{"start":11766.853,"end":11786.715,"text":"主委好今天本席首先想要針對海廢海洋廢棄物的部分來跟您請教我想在你們的報告中也有特別講特別提到海廢的治理跟海廢的處理"},{"start":11788.823,"end":11808.739,"text":"那可能你们觉得做的还不错还不错那应该重视吧应该重视要更努力了对海费的处理它影响我们整个的环境对那首先我想了解一下我们好像是中央跟地方"},{"start":11809.861,"end":11825.897,"text":"良合一起處理我們補助地方讓政府地方來執行你們我們中央沒有嗎不是有權責嗎沒有嗎我們的經費下去但是必須是地方政府來協助執行所以沒有"},{"start":11826.912,"end":11855.891,"text":"分海域哪些给地方政府哪些是给中央没有所以中央自己没有海洋废棄物的清理跟海洋污染的应变不一样海洋污染的应变的话我是指海洋废棄物海洋废棄物的清理的话我们最主要就是需要因为它横跨在全国非常广大的海域所以它的执行我们有请地方政府或者是民间的团体来协助对"},{"start":11856.572,"end":11856.792,"text":"那這樣民間的團體"},{"start":11862.443,"end":11890.584,"text":"是不是应该主委主委是不是有一些还是是你们我们是应变啦应变属于我们啦应变是你们那我现在请教我这边拿到的了解所以紧急的部分你三海里以内是不是是地方三海里以外的是不是你们中央海上主要群职是我们那我现在说海底下海底下三海里以内也都还是地方嘛"},{"start":11891.827,"end":11908.182,"text":"對 那你們知道地方有些困難嗎譬如說你有經費委託地方但是地方政府對於譬如說你15公尺或30公尺以下的這個是誰"},{"start":11911.229,"end":11927.209,"text":"每一年我們有一個我們有平台所以我們補助下去的時候你可不可以先救我的問題因為我時間也不多啦你現在海底廢棄物超過15公尺或30公尺更深的你也是給地方嗎"},{"start":11929.605,"end":11953.276,"text":"我們基本上地方還是第一線來替我們執行好 那主委我看你可能完全不了解我們這裡要委託下去清除我們委託前海戰將系統下去清除也是必須是前海戰將系統來協助我們清除那海委會的同仁不可能自己下去清除我的意思是說"},{"start":11954.536,"end":11969.624,"text":"地方它也是委外 它也是委託當然有一些可能是我們的一些漁民就是包括叫做什麼環保前海戰將這些對 還有環保艦隊對 前海戰將環保艦隊就是漁民還有一些潛水業者或熱愛潛水的民眾那現在主委我要講一個重點"},{"start":11979.662,"end":11990.192,"text":"我們發現在深海超過15公尺甚至30公尺以下很多的魚礁有很多的流刺網它整個都"},{"start":11992.529,"end":12014.415,"text":"覆蓋在魚礁上那個部分是最困難的對 最困難的地方他也沒辦法你給的經費他也沒辦法結果長期這個海底一堆的這些流刺網我們很多長期下來很多的魚類他們都被這些流刺網刺死了"},{"start":12015.556,"end":12039.877,"text":"這個情況已經好幾年了我們中央都沒有辦法處理然後地方他們沒有辦法因為你太深了這一塊想辦法跟委員報告這也是為什麼我一直期待我們的海報署要有一個大幅度的體質的改變你體質改變是說你們自己有專業團隊嗎"},{"start":12041.198,"end":12056.638,"text":"你要培养自己的吗我们一定要赋能一定要强化我们连预算一年的预算整个海保署只有8亿我就请教你你的意思是你们要自己有专业的人员专业的团队吗你回答一下我们正在做主改是不是"},{"start":12057.079,"end":12074.034,"text":"你是不是朝向這方面基本上海委會自己本身海保署自己本身組團隊下去處理這些事情比較不是朝向這一區規劃但是我們海底的這種情況已經很多年而且地方跟我們反映"},{"start":12074.454,"end":12090.627,"text":"它一直反映就是沒有人重視我們現在連海廢地圖都沒有做到全面所以海廢地圖的部分我們要用水下的滑翔液我們先用水下的滑翔液下去做調查每年捐助北美環境教育協會"},{"start":12092.569,"end":12106.149,"text":"也是就是针对一些这个近海大联盟等于是你每年花120万请问那个效益是什么我请我请副署长说明副署长是不是好来"},{"start":12107.827,"end":12126.102,"text":"报告委员刚刚讲的那个北美的那个部分是针对YIC的部分那是补助我们去做就是请各个国家对嘛你去请他们提一些好的方案但是已经连续做了很多年这些方案有了好的方案你们有去用吗"},{"start":12126.622,"end":12147.781,"text":"有因为这样改善我们台湾的海域相关的情况吗再跟委员说明一下就是因为我们的那些方案都会请这些得奖的人员都会来做分享然后我们会从中启发有一些比较好的一些车你现在讲的话都没有针对我的问题我知道你们办了很多年"},{"start":12148.021,"end":12163.774,"text":"但是最後主委主委主委您要知道你這個錢花下去它有沒有效益還有我們地方的漁民每年每年反映他們都知道深海那些漁礁都是那個流刺網都沒有人去清這個問題"},{"start":12166.756,"end":12195.876,"text":"主委你可不可以跟我保證你未來這一年因為我們馬上也要審預算了你明年度你這一塊你要不要我們海底漁網跟委員報告我們海底漁網清多少噸這個數字是獨立起來的那以今年吧今年來講到目前為止是清了17.85公噸所以非常感謝委員委員以後就給我們督促這個數字有沒有在成長"},{"start":12197.257,"end":12223.519,"text":"對 這個數字是獨立起來的數字成長是一個但是我們看著我們的海洋生態還有我們那麼多各式各樣的魚類它都因為這個部分它等於是很多魚就因為這樣都被刺死了我們大概順序上我們順序上我也期許他們說經費啦 你們每年這個經費總經費多少海肺的清理每年總經費多少"},{"start":12224.352,"end":12232.883,"text":"我是不滿意啦一億八全國嘛然後你補助各縣市政府還有你們自己是不是也有"},{"start":12234.638,"end":12258.528,"text":"還有一個就是我們現在目前有一個海費清除網就是針對剛剛委員講的這樣子的情況如果說比較傷害就是針對比較深一點的我們就會自己下去請專業的人下去清那這個部分呢我主要就是你們可不可以了解有些地方他這個哀哀叫然後你們都不伸出援手這樣不行"},{"start":12259.549,"end":12279.325,"text":"不可能這個最近我們才跟他們做討論那麻煩新竹縣外海那個我去年好像也有質詢那到今年都沒有人去清15公尺30公尺以下的這個部分我們有去清我們有去清那還一直都在那主席不好意思最後我再講一題"},{"start":12280.706,"end":12298.083,"text":"那這一塊我們希望明年能夠看到改善那最後再來一個就是說海域管理法至今懸而未決原因是什麼這個法非常的複雜我們曾經完成過草案然後也送到行政院過"},{"start":12299.404,"end":12328.544,"text":"但是它涉及的就是說你中央的權限要不要全面把地方的權限收回涉及這個爭議所以到最後我們過去所做的草案的這個路線我們全部就重新盤點那重新盤點以後把各種權限的合理安排做了一個新的架構那跟委員報告我們最新的進度就是這個大綱架構出來了草案出來了"},{"start":12329.344,"end":12353.077,"text":"那我要求說你大綱架構出來不要直接下去寫條文你從大綱架構就開始做跨部會員商還有做跟民間的溝通那你有沒有期程預計什麼時候要出來我們希望明年會有非常具體的成果因為現在我們離岸風電開發模式都是業者先圈海政府被動審查"},{"start":12354.298,"end":12376.884,"text":"那我們希望我們海域的整個的使用它能夠是基於國安還有我們的生態還有各方面整體利益一起來考量所以這個我們的海域管理法我們希望我們希望明年會非常明確能夠有這樣的一個法出來是 現在大綱出來了好 加油 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還有知通訊這三樣是我看過對我們現在的農幫計畫可以說最大的幫助那青年人他當兵我們這個相對來講我們的薪資也是就負擔比較輕而他人生的投資未來"},{"start":169.717,"end":188.655,"text":"這一個現在有幾個計畫我在整合包括獎學金制度學人的這個制度以外也包括國際青年大使農業青年大使外交小兼兵另外就是國會會的志工再加上外交替代"},{"start":189.275,"end":206.13,"text":"那外交替代一出去之後比如說我去巴拉圭看到我們建立了醫療資訊系統就是我們的這一些有醫學背景的人去幫忙那這個HIS這個系統建立之後對他智慧醫療就是一個基礎建設很重要那同樣的那一些農漁業我們的技術團我們的年輕人在那邊都好健康"},{"start":210.734,"end":237.914,"text":"有些還都決定繼續留下來所以續簽外交替代役後來續簽我們國會的專案或者是我們的聘僱人員很多這個比例啊如果總共加起來應該有將近五成之多那現在遇到這個問題說我有跟總統報告請示也得到行政院支持現在包括內政部國防部正在跟外交部研究怎麼樣讓外交替代役不但不會停止而且還可以擴大"},{"start":239.335,"end":246.641,"text":"這個就是我們現在總和外交的一部分那人才的培養是雙向的所以我們現在總統有一個叫青年海外圓夢計畫百億的計畫我們在挑選台灣的青年走向國際的時候我們也給我們12個友邦國家的年輕人也可以給他們圓夢來台灣另外也可以有些專案性的比如說我們剛剛講八大籠幫計畫裡面有一些他們國家人才的培訓可以透過這個專案的申請"},{"start":267.936,"end":275.043,"text":"那也可跨國一起來橫向的還有之間跟台灣的這個交流合作所以我就覺得他的這個所謂的CP值是很高那我認為這個計畫我們會加強再推動最近包括國會包括我們的NGO事務會包括相關國經師啦各個地域師我們現在在北中南"},{"start":290.097,"end":313.745,"text":"也在培訓台灣有志於走向國際的年輕人才因為他要出去也是要具備一些基本能力讓有志於國際外交的年輕人他不一定來考外交官那事實上很多外交替代後來來考我們外交部的外交官是我們很重要人才的來源那就算沒有的話他人生裡面階段有個一年或多久想要去國外服務我舉個例子"},{"start":315.233,"end":339.856,"text":"我們在聖克里斯多福尼維斯有十個名額給台灣在總理辦公室一位外交部長那邊有三位其他就是他政府裡面的各部會甚至他的國際組織所以我們台灣透過邦交國走向國際組織這個台灣因為不能參加聯合國跟很多的國際組織所以這個就變成了另外一個我們不只是說跟他之間雙向的關係而透過他代表"},{"start":340.997,"end":353.916,"text":"這個走向國際這個也是另辟蹊徑我們發現這個效果是異常的好部長您回答得非常的詳細對於這個我們替代役的部分另外一個問題就是說"},{"start":355.663,"end":371.024,"text":"剛剛部長您也大概說明了一下我們因為現在疫情的關係一直在這個做調整那未來如果我們這個替代役的這個藝男他因為人數的源耳問題還有他疫情縮短的話那甚至"},{"start":373.458,"end":395.69,"text":"這個會不會影響到我們未來整個外交關係我們這個替代役沒辦法去加入這些人員來幫忙跟委員報告我們已經跟跨部會協調大家都支持就是如果現在兵役一年他還是可以有外交替代役現在那個體位我們希望不要是就是好像是"},{"start":396.866,"end":415.536,"text":"剩下的才可以啦我自己一定比例是他有這個志願我們就可以出去所以我們今年當然29個嘛還在那因為兵役是一年還需要一個時間去轉換那這個部分我們也在思考除了一年以外有沒有再可以加幾個月"},{"start":417.577,"end":431.642,"text":"這樣子的話增加 因為你培養的人才結果出國只有幾個月 馬上就結束也很可惜 讓他可以有選擇比如說可以變一年六個月他再加這六個月之後 可能效果會更好但怎麼樣去設計這個我們正在跟內政部 兵役司 還有國防部因為他涉及兵源的來源 來做討論"},{"start":441.505,"end":461.63,"text":"那另外剛剛部長您也提到這個國和會的部分我們現在目前這個國和會在海外服務工作也行之有年那其中在國內大專院校合作推動的這個大專青年海外技術協助服務的計畫在今年則是進入第七年而今年這個報名錄取的人數"},{"start":462.49,"end":486.246,"text":"似乎是創新高那入取人數從19位增加到30位而且還看到這個實習生志工還有華語的老師37名目前陸陸續續都已經加入我們海外的這個服務那我想請教部長這項實習計畫是因為我們有幫國家所提出的這個人才需求增加還是我們這邊主動擴大我們要戶外服務的人數"},{"start":487.236,"end":504.126,"text":"我們有主動跟他們討論來擴大事實上我們也在思考除了邦交國非邦交國跟我們理念相近我們過去是比較少比如像菲律賓這麼重要一個很大的國家像中東歐這些國家其實都可以再擴大這個員額那是不是我請國會會秘書長跟大家說明一下這個最新的一個數字相關的"},{"start":512.53,"end":541.306,"text":"不管是外交替代役或者是這些志工好 請黃秘書長謝謝委員我們最近名額的增加是兩方面剛剛部長有解釋過是一個是邦交國的需求的增加另外是我們主動有提出一些協調那目前的計畫我們在執行上我們是希望說將來這種實習生的實習的期間還可以再更加的延長"},{"start":543.764,"end":563.487,"text":"延長之後我們希望可以達到像我們外交替代役目前的成果外交替代役已經形成了我們國會外派人員將近三分之一的人力而且我們的主管包括團長跟計劃經理團長占三分之一是這個外交替代役的背景"},{"start":564.608,"end":591.049,"text":"計劃經理也有四分之一這些主管所以我們如果在期間上面可以加以延長培養一些人才不只在國和會事實上他們很多人之後都考進外交部經濟部還有我們現在的農業部也是進到政府來服務所以我們希望可以延長他們的期間另外我們會形成一個比較大的平台"},{"start":592.29,"end":598.985,"text":"把這些人把它聚集在一起有一個繼續學習的一個平台好 謝謝米蘇"},{"start":600.044,"end":625.502,"text":"不管是我們台灣的青年或是海外進行交流的相關服務未來有機會培養出更多的這些色外的工作人才或是友邦的這些青年能夠回到家鄉去貢獻他們所學在台灣所感受到的情感未來能夠作為促進我們跟其他國家雙邊關係的一個"},{"start":628.852,"end":641.054,"text":"那我想這是我們未來在推動相關外交工作上的一個重點也請我們外交部跟相關單位能夠持續的來為我們這部分注入更多的心力好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"165671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9138667ea6a1b7acb4e50d730950bdd7c8a43079a982cb9ebe0632dec9194285a125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:20:40 - 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我們大概都不知道不是大概我們完全不知道我們的進展到底是怎麼樣我們先談CPTPP在11月20應該就今天吧對"},{"start":515.382,"end":533.824,"text":"會有主席國澳洲在墨爾本他會舉行第九屆這個部長級的執委會其實我們會很快就知道哪一個申請國的入會工作小組會被統一成立我想請教我們台灣會嗎我們在爭取中今天已經會知道結果那機會有多大"},{"start":535.031,"end":559.922,"text":"我們就極力爭取因為我們派了三個我們派了次長到了澳洲日本跟英國去溝通在今年那另外我們也透過友好國家幫我們能夠說話另外也有一些提案可能來增加我們成立工作小組的機會那至於說他這個基於什麼樣的考量會有哪些國家放進來成立工作是一個還是同時多個這個我想他們會在大會裡面做個決定"},{"start":564.064,"end":586.502,"text":"那如果說有多個那台灣還沒有被排入部長怎麼看那我們當然也會有建議他們應該要有一些積極的作為因為台灣是符合所謂奧克蘭三原則這裡面最重要高標準沒有不良記錄之後再來就共識決我相信這些我們都符合不贊成某國參加的成立工作小組要續名理由啊"},{"start":587.102,"end":603.679,"text":"因為現在是說大家怕有壓力嘛因為大家都知道中國的態度所以這個時候要解除這些國家的壓力就是說他反對反對要寫理由的那要接受檢驗所以我們希望從這個角度有國家能夠提出說明來增加台灣成立工作小組的機會"},{"start":604.58,"end":620.367,"text":"如果對於中華民國不管在國際外交上面其實我相信國人都一致的支持所以剛剛您提到了兩個重點第一個就是其實國際現實因為如果不同意其實要寫理由可是以台灣目前的條件其實我們都達到這樣的一個條件門檻而且甚至我們標準是算是高的"},{"start":626.389,"end":635.557,"text":"可是我們如果還沒有被排入其實有很大的因素就是政治的影響力那這就是國際現實這是第一個我們也知道我們外交部在外面拓展的時候會面臨到這些相關的問題這個我們一定會全力支持可是不要只有內宣因為我們要的是你實質強力的訴求我們讓其他的成員國知道我們的條件優勢在哪裡可是我們也必須要扮演好外交的角色"},{"start":654.933,"end":658.275,"text":"所以外交的角色你不是只會對著一個國家喊那其他的國家對我們不夠好的時候我們完全不敢講話也不敢爭取這個對我們來說傷害才是最大的所以我們這一次看到今年比較特別的是在日本的主導之下CPTPP它成員國將會和東協還有在紐西蘭跟加拿大的主導之下甚至跟歐盟也一起展開這樣第一次的合作對話會商討以後如何合作"},{"start":684.655,"end":685.298,"text":"也就是說東協跟歐盟這一次都會被邀請與會"},{"start":689.905,"end":713.783,"text":"東協、歐盟包括很多其他的這些國家其實都陸續在參與即使美國展開這個關稅戰大家都在尋找新的出路台灣最可怕的或最可悲的或讓大家最擔心的是我們可能會成為這樣的孤兒因為我們到目前為止沒有跟任何一個國家"},{"start":714.804,"end":716.885,"text":"簽訂比較完整的FAT所以這是最大的問題我們面對美國我們已經付出相當多的我們比任何國家我們付出的都還要多不管國防支出也好不管我們的原來的規定"},{"start":730.25,"end":754.7,"text":"要跟著去做調整然後還有我們付出的投資還有甚至我們的產業鏈都要移出這些在在還有包括我們的農產品農業其實都會受到很多的傷害跟影響這些我們都付出以後我們到底得到什麼這才是我們最大的擔心這個部分也是外交部應該要扮演更好的角色而不是只有在內部或者我們編了預算可是"},{"start":756.781,"end":773.843,"text":"都說有什麼樣的阻力尤其來自中國大陸的阻力這個從過去到現在都有可是我們現在面臨的困境會越來越深我們希望大家可以更熟悉我們的地緣政治還有我們的整個國際的發展這個部分部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":775.104,"end":799.265,"text":"我們先放開所謂的政治因素或中國的可能阻力其實我們做了一個調查報告台灣加入CPTPP對CPTPP國家的貢獻度這個最實在因為對他們有利結果他們又不讓台灣參加他們也會面對民意的檢驗另外我們也在成立這個所謂的工作小組的前期諮商因為在加拿大當這個主席國的時候已經有允許"},{"start":799.745,"end":819.501,"text":"台灣跟個別國家之間之商那上次委員問我嘛有一個那我們也在增加中另外參加了英國剛參加而英國也是大國所以我們認為從大國裡面有大概12個國家有一半像日本 英國 加拿大這些國家如果聲量大一點因為他們佔這個CPTPP裡面的所謂的經濟體的比例它是比較高的"},{"start":824.705,"end":838.587,"text":"所以不能夠變成少數再否決多數而且傷害他們所有人的利益所以我們把這些資料都做了報告那也去溝通那也在希望能夠有多元的軌道能夠讓台灣可以成立工作小組才能展開實質的諮商"},{"start":840.421,"end":849.915,"text":"部長我們都知道因為你剛剛講的這些我們台灣的優勢還有獨安條款因為中共想參加但是其實加拿大跟墨西哥我讓你講很長的時間我意思是說中國想參加是很難的"},{"start":855.663,"end":858.384,"text":"但是他參加不來也不讓我們參加這是我們困難的地方但是我們要想辦法去解決陳律委員所說所以我們希望的就是你必須要去解決目前的這個問題那現在最後一個 用一點時間 不好意思我們過去跟美國在2023年1月在談判21世紀貿易倡議的時候美國的貿易代表署還特別安排了很多國會幕僚到台北來"},{"start":881.076,"end":884.557,"text":"那時候就是為了讓他們近距離可以第一手了解到談判的進程以利於後來他們會爭取他們就是國會的支持另外在貿易代表署裡面也在台北會晤了很多相關的利害關係人為什麼提到這個事情因為我們現在即使我們跟美國簽訂了保密協定可是民進黨政府在用這個保密協定來拒絕國會的監督"},{"start":910.342,"end":926.035,"text":"跟過去我們跟美國談判這個談判其實跟21世紀貿易倡議其實是完全不同的而且它涉及的是影響更大 層面更廣然後對我們整體的國安或者國家的發展其實是"},{"start":927.236,"end":933,"text":"更巨大的這一次他面臨到包括市場開放關稅降為0以及調整我們的規定去配合美國的規定甚至國防預算大幅增加等等其實這些重大的事項可是我們可以受到影響的這些產業他們有曾經被徵詢過嗎我們問起來完全沒有"},{"start":948.732,"end":974.424,"text":"我們看到對於像這樣子的一個狀況到現在都還是採取這樣子拒絕監督的狀態這個可能後座力會很強我們也不認為如果對台灣造成太大的傷害我們必須要全部吞下去這個部分我們今天特別提出來也希望外交部在這個部分也應該要扮演自己最好的角色因為我們看到好像都是國安的"},{"start":975.965,"end":983.215,"text":"這些相關的人員他們在進行談判這是不對的所以這個部分我們還是後續有相關的這些進展還是希望外交部掌握以後可以隨時做報告謝謝好 謝謝謝謝馬委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}