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已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開始開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上一次會議議事錄"},{"start":1765.973,"end":1792.738,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十一月二十日星期四上午九十二分至十二十九分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室主席委員黃國昌委員等十一人請假委員莊瑞雄委員一人列席委員楊瓊英委員等七人列席官員司法院副秘書長王美英等人主席翁昭吉委員小林報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項"},{"start":1795.738,"end":1818.751,"text":"審查委員翁曉琳等18人理據法院組織法第106條條文修正草案等4案本次會議由委員黃國昌等11人提出質詢決議一 報告及尋答完畢二 第一案至第四案均另定計繼續審查三 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1821.493,"end":1849.992,"text":"好因為在場人數尚不足三人我們稍後再行確定議事錄那接著我們先來介紹在場的委員看到審發會委員辛苦了那應邀的列席人員因為今天有非常多從總統府行政院立法院司法院考選部權序部教育部法務部經濟部衛福部人事行政總處跟警政署"},{"start":1851.601,"end":1868.935,"text":"以及海巡署還有法服基金會那因為人員眾多我們就大家可以來參照一下今天列席的名單非常謝謝大家今天來與會列席好 就不再逐一介紹那我們就列入公報記錄好 再次歡迎大家"},{"start":1871.869,"end":1882.095,"text":"好 本次的議程討論事項排定是審查人民請願案共計73案那處理前我們需要花一點時間請議事人員來進行宣讀"},{"start":1885.872,"end":1902.886,"text":"討論事項審查人民請願案共73案第一案至第二案為高某某均為建議修正外遺間條例至請願文書一份請查照審查等二案三至七為尼某某均為建議金融加息罪行遭刑事起起公訴後應急凍結扣押其名下各式財產"},{"start":1903.687,"end":1919.972,"text":"以防止脫產事之請願文書一份請查照審查等五案八至十四為張某某軍委修正行政程序法第33條條文是續提建議之請願文書一份請查照審查等七案三十五供紅某某軍委建議修正民事訴訟法第222條及刑事訴訟法第258條之一條文之請願"},{"start":1924.233,"end":1941.148,"text":"文書一份請查照審查十六 李某某君為刑事補償法有關少年時疑涉犯罪入獄後或判無罪得於成年後申請國家賠償室提出修法建議至請願文書一份請查照審查十七至十八為梁某某君等"},{"start":1942.79,"end":1953.283,"text":"為進促審查本院委員及黨團分別擬具公教人員保險法第48條條文修正草案等八案之請問書一份請查照審查等二案19到20為中華民國某會為建議修正專門職業及技術人員考試法條文請問書一份"},{"start":1958.969,"end":1980.807,"text":"請查照審查等二案二十一 由某某軍委累進處遇縮短刑期提出修法建議請問文書一份請查照審查二十二 附某某軍委有關立法委員嚴體法律修正案如立法限縮人民權利是否有違職務及應進行之行為建議修正立法院職權行使法規定之請問文書一份請查照審查"},{"start":1981.668,"end":2002.355,"text":"二十三至二十四為謝某某均為建議修正中央法規標準法條文請願文書一份請查照審查等二案二十五中某某均為建議修正中華民國刑法第七十七條第二項第二款條文請願文書一份請查照審查二十六李某某均為建議修正公務員承接法規例請願文書一份請查照審查二十七李某某均"},{"start":2003.495,"end":2024.986,"text":"為建議修正行事民事規定請願文書一份請查找審查28至29為周某某均為建議申訂民事訴訟法條文請願文書一份請查找審查等二案30周某某均為建請修法弱勢者應於民事訴訟時免繳裁判費及司法院予違法裁判予違法判決案應主動與被害人聯繫並複製"},{"start":2027.147,"end":2055.014,"text":"賠償自責請願文書一份請查照審查三十一李某某均為前請願之訴願法修正事經過委員會審查結果不成為疑案特訓名不符理由陳情重新審議自請願文書一份請查照審查三十二至三十五為李某某均等未請審查立法院組織法第二條規定本院職權事請願文書一份請查照審查等四案三十六蘇某某均為建議修正刑法相關規定事請願文書一份請查照審查三十七至三十九為"},{"start":2055.974,"end":2082.667,"text":"謝某某均為建議增訂民事訴訟並按推費規定請願文書一份請查找審查等三案四十之四十一為李某某均為目前法規過於寬鬆未規範中央民意代表應定期公開露面並向民眾匯報工作狀況請願文書一份請查找審查等二案四十二戴某某均為建議制定公益戒避及缺少者保護法請願文書一份請查找審查四十三郭某某均為建議立法"},{"start":2083.067,"end":2099.892,"text":"推動國會司法調查權請願文書一份請查到審查四十四 劉某某軍委建議修正立法院職權行使法請願文書一份請查到審查四十五 張某某軍委建議修正軍公教退休人員兌月退休金規定及立法院議事規則是請願文書一份請查到審查"},{"start":2101.112,"end":2122.024,"text":"46至51為鄭某某軍委建議修正刑事訴訟法第49條之一及103條條文請願文書一份請查到審查等六案52王某某軍委建議修正警察人員人事條例第35條條文內容及森林海巡署外勤人員使用危牢降臨退休相關規定請願文書一份請查到審查53至54為彭某某軍委建請"},{"start":2123.164,"end":2148.505,"text":"廢止憲法訴訟法是請願文書一份請查照審查等二案55至56為強迫某軍委建議修正憲法訴訟法第三章第三節第五章相關條文請願文書一份請查照審查等二案57某雜誌社會監警修正民事訴訟法第496條條文請願文書一份請查照審查58新北市某協會維救行政院與考試院會前修正公務人員協會法草案提供修法一件請願"},{"start":2149.606,"end":2172.497,"text":"文書一份請雜照審查59 全國某產業工會為建請修正教師待遇條例部分條文請願文書一份請雜照審查60 濫某某軍為建請修正貪污自罪條例依貪污所得價款計算刑期及中華民國刑法增列編刑刑法室請願文書一份請雜照審查61 台灣某未建議增訂刑事訴訟法第361條之一條文請願文書一份請雜照審查62 蔡某某軍為建請"},{"start":2177.779,"end":2205.412,"text":"修正中華民國刑法第246條條文請院文書一份請查照審查63至67為李某某軍委見請修正中華民國刑法第284條條文自列四組因未盡善盡管理責任之動物傷人者應負加重刑責請院文書一份請查照審查等五案68李某某軍委見請盡速修訂中華民國刑法第7至9條之一第五項規定是請院文書一份請查照審查69李某某軍委見請修正"},{"start":2206.753,"end":2224.472,"text":"民法相關條文針對孫子女及子女不孝順被繼承人具有具體施政者喪失其繼承權利是請問文書一份請查照審查70 蔡某某軍委建請修正律師法第23條之一條文請問文書一份請查照審查71 陳某某軍委建請刪除中華民國刑法第47條"},{"start":2225.433,"end":2253.795,"text":"及相關涉及累犯規定請問文書一份請查照審查七十二陳某某君為民法總則失蹤人死亡宣告制度規定與該法第1052條第1項第9款第1080條第7項第1款規定期間不一致恐之法律關係不安定見請尽速修正事請問文書一份請查照審查七十三社團法人臺灣經濟委員會為本院議事程序有關議案之修正及再修正動議應上網公開其日方得一決是"},{"start":2254.495,"end":2272.439,"text":"請願文書一份請查照審查 宣讀完畢好 討論事項所列請願案已宣讀完畢那現在在場人數已經超過三位委員我們是先行確認今天的議事錄好 有沒有問題好 議事錄確定"},{"start":2273.752,"end":2290.07,"text":"那有關於剛剛宣讀完畢的請願案那有關個案的相關處理過程請參閱今天的會議資料審查人民請願案的簡表厚厚一疊那一一立法院職權刑事法六十六條規定本次討論為程序審查"},{"start":2292.56,"end":2303.598,"text":"僅審查請願案應否成為議案委員進行審查時如果需要進一步的了解那處理經過相關的細節那委員可以自行詢問列席的權責機關的代表"},{"start":2305.7,"end":2330.142,"text":"那由於議程的討論事項所列請願案呢已經經過立法院職權行使法66條第一項的規定經函請各相關權責機關並查附請願人或入案留供本委員會參考所以這部分各委員會應當委員應該都沒有異議嗎那審查內容有沒有要什麼發言沒有"},{"start":2331.072,"end":2359.553,"text":"那我們現在進行處理請問各位委員討論事項所列各請願案一立法院職權行事法六十六條第一項審查以及經第六十七條第二項處理審查結果我們已並均決議不成為議案並續名理由及處理經過經送交程序委員會報請院會存查並通知請願人請問在場各位委員有無異議"},{"start":2361.63,"end":2383.732,"text":"好無異議那無異議通過討論事項所列各請願案審查結果均決議不成為議案立立法院職權行使法六十七條第二項規定來辦理好議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"165763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103f1c1cc5d0fdaab9c46adc14d631adda669bc65e346f37e4cc6a74b42f456a0955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:47:13 - 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接下來我想小局書會即將取代農民曆 成為全台灣家戶必須收藏的書籍"},{"start":14.628,"end":37.541,"text":"那我們今天安排這個專題報告最主要是因為最近普發這個全民國防手冊造成了不少的爭議包括第二倍金然後以及印上賴金澤總統的簽名還有普發工作造成很多基層的人員疲於奔命最重要的是說很多人都質疑說這本手冊在緊急狀況的時候它是否真的有它的實用性因此特別我們請國防部專報告還有備詢"},{"start":39.262,"end":56.291,"text":"希望你們也能夠將今天各位的意見呢能夠持續的來去做檢討跟精進以及後續的這相關政策也避免最重要是避免造成我們基層人員的困擾跟這個負擔那我想好那接下來我想要請劉思芳劉部長好謝謝韋陽謝謝董事長"},{"start":64.059,"end":90.744,"text":"部長首先要肯定內政部那在本席積極的協調下我們內政部行政院跟內政部我們同意把台東縣現有兩塊兩米比土地還給我們天后宮落實還地於民也守護了在地重要的信仰這個傳承這點我想要給我們內政部來感謝不過最近我們針對賴清德總統他公布的這個工地放領的這個政策本席有幾點想要跟你進一步來討論我想先請教部長"},{"start":91.764,"end":113.105,"text":"不然你還可以記錄我們今年六月份今年六月份本市在內政委員會就有跟部長來爭取說內政部應該以以南大南澳台州的土地公立放領為例持續推動全國的公立放領以我們台東縣特別是要以台東地區來優先來實施盡速跟我們地方來做研議推動我們公立放領的政策不然你還會記錄嗎"},{"start":114.786,"end":121.348,"text":"報告委員我有跟你答應過但是現在我跟委員講一下說我們現在進度是超前第一個就是宜蘭的大南澳台地本來叫市辦然後市辦的時候就是以台東縣這邊為主後來我們跟財政部一起清查過後跟獲得行政院的同意我們現在就是所有的這些部分只要清查出來"},{"start":139.232,"end":165.429,"text":"他具有這個我們規定上面所說的要65年以前然後有連續耕作那我們就按照原來的部分就全部要處理所以跟委員報告超前我們現在內政部已經成立這個審議委員會那今天我們就會發函請包括台東縣在內的縣政府要成立工作小組因為我記得當時是跟部長要求說一個月內要趕快回覆然後部長說"},{"start":167.37,"end":169.752,"text":"因為是財政部他在清查的時候因為台東縣最多啦所以我都不敢答應奇怪是內政部忘記跟我們立法院來報告為什麼我們還沒有收到消息的時候"},{"start":183.301,"end":208.166,"text":"總統就先公布了沒有沒有我們擔心的是這樣部長擔心的是第一個當然如果不管今天是怎樣這個政策如果重要的話當時部長都說要嚴厲的話那我們在不知情的情況下總統就公布我們擔心的是會不會這樣急救章的推出真的影響到其他農民的權利沒有我想委員你上次這個事情不能清拆委員你上次一定有聽我講過我們現在最大的重點在清查清查是最困難的OK"},{"start":209.306,"end":221.053,"text":"然後清查你要決定他是國有平地耕地還是國有山坡地耕地然後是不是符合國土保育原則那我也跟委員報告從17年前到現在有很多法律已經在修正譬如說有這個這個原住民的這個這個進法補償或者其他"},{"start":226.216,"end":255.536,"text":"這些可能要排除或者你要排除漁權要排除這個台大實驗林等等這些那都必須要跨部會協商那因為如果跨部會協商的話一定要到行政院以上的這些政務委員來做協調所以那時候並不是說沒有照這個進度而是我們超過這個進度在處理那所以呢這個總統在上個禮拜週末的時候他公布的時候是公布這個政策那政策公布之後我們內政部的地政單位可以處理的都已經先處理了"},{"start":258.538,"end":285.459,"text":"那不過部長就剛剛你提到說總統公佈的條件我們就來討論條件的部分他依據我們總統的提出的這個工地放檸條件第一個就是必須在1976年1976年就是9月25年進檢跟政府就訂定契約到現在這第一個嘛對不對第一個就是你要符合有國有耕地放檸實施辦法還有國有邊際養殖用地放檸實施辦法"},{"start":285.919,"end":313.557,"text":"就是這兩個條件 符合這兩個條件這個對很多農民聽起來說聽起來比較簡單 其實說起來比較簡單 聽起來比較複雜為什麼會這樣講部長你也知道台東縣的土地是複雜我們台東縣是山多 平原少然後公有地占了87%然後又涉及到的是財政部 國防部 農業部還有中央主管機關跟國營事業土地複雜的最多比其他縣市更高"},{"start":314.858,"end":338.658,"text":"因此台東縣 其實在本期上週回去台東的時候 很多農民都很擔心說我覺得反正現在的經濟空間在那裡吃不下不會啦 委員我幫你報告一下有什麼我會先告訴你 有什麼有三個問題 我們現在發現三個問題第一個就是說 以現在我們工地放領的這個是縣 國有的平地耕作跟養殖戶第一個 我們的三多平 平地這個部分就是一個限制"},{"start":339.338,"end":362.43,"text":"很多人 他可能耕作多人 他是在山區他是山丘地 山坡地 耕作地他第一個就被排除在外了嘛 這第一個問題嘛第二個 很多農民要擔心的是說工地放棄林子 縣什麼 自耕農有的農民 他做幾十年了 他耕不到他早期的主業早就找不到了然後第二個就是年紀大 他沒辦法再耕作然後所以他的土地 繼承權過戶給他的兒女的時候"},{"start":365.184,"end":392.023,"text":"他兒子死了可能他沒農報啊所以他沒辦法認定是根農嘛所以這個可能照他幾十年的等待就是一場空那第三個會擔心的是什麼台東很多農民早期是像退府會台塘甚至是台營土地租用啦租用這些土地這些人也都不符合恐怕都不符合在這一次工地放領的對象裡面所以我們根據你們內政部提供的這些簡報資料台東工地放領的面積達到了608公頃"},{"start":394.825,"end":413.51,"text":"全國最多我們隔壁的屏東縣比賽將近多了兩倍將近是大概兩倍但是台東縣符合這樣條件的人數只有752人這個人數大概是屏東縣的一半面積是台屏東縣的兩倍人口數是屏東的一半"},{"start":414.19,"end":440.062,"text":"那加上現在政策相對是模糊我們台東縣的境內的狀況又很特殊因此台東很多農民擔心說最後成功能夠申請到放寧的人他可能比你們預估的人數還要少所以我們想在這裡讓我們中央這個不要玩文字遊戲因為他們等了一輩子等了那麼久他們期待著這些事情不要好不容易有了希望結果到後來"},{"start":442.904,"end":465.119,"text":"所以本期今天會提出一個臨時提案也要求我們內政部在一個月以內邀集相關的部會還有我們地方政府來擬去這個工地放寧的清澈並針對我們台東縣的特殊狀況來做研議就像我們提到那個地形的關係然後還有就是從寬從速的推動我們工地放寧的政策讓這項德政能夠真的落實到民眾的"},{"start":465.759,"end":465.859,"text":"我會回應"},{"start":479.659,"end":504.219,"text":"那報告委員第一個我們根據現有的行政命令來處理所以並沒有所說的有模糊的空間第二個呢我剛講過有新的法令譬如說你牽涉到國土保安還有牽涉到信賴保護原則的部分狀況之下我們的所有原則都非常清楚三個原則兩個辦法然後你剛所提到台東跟屏東那是因為屏東的土地的比數"},{"start":504.739,"end":512.005,"text":"是台東的兩倍不是面積多寡 你又寡很多人然後再來有關於它是自耕農的這個只要有延續是跟財政部的國有財產署有訂約那我們會來請國有財產署來從寬認定因為我們內政部所處理是土地的清查那清查出來以後它這個清查土地的所有者有沒有跟國有財產署繼續去簽約"},{"start":529.801,"end":546.639,"text":"那就是由這個國有財產署來認定所以我剛剛才說我們今天會請縣市地方政府趕快成立工作小組因為國有財產署他手上就是所有的清單名冊都有但是他在對證譬如說有的人可能已經往生但是他是不是繼續跟國產署有訂定契約那應該就是沒有太大的問題但是這個是財政部認定"},{"start":552.665,"end":558.567,"text":"我都聽到委員的建議在處理啊 你在抄錢啊所以是不是跟我們上禮拜聽到的 其實不太簡單嘛 對不對不是不是 沒有沒有沒有第一個 站在我們的跟那個財政部一起來協辦的立場上面第一個 法律沒有改變第二個 信賴保護原則沒有改變第三個 國土保育是新增加的如果你那個地方是有堰塞湖的危險或那個地方有土石流 你現在放你出去"},{"start":581.576,"end":585.937,"text":"是害了他們所以這個部分要排除我們是臨時提案是委員的權益但是那個財政部的部分我們尊重財政部他們的處理的規範好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"165762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103d778c027dead9efb46adc14d631adda669bc65e346f37e4ca5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:39:31 - 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希望說這個就是那以後未來你們的做法會是什麼樣的做法"},{"start":229.761,"end":247.234,"text":"如果這個我們在發放以後我們事實上我們會做追蹤和管考如果這個效果很好如果這個在未來來講有需求那我們國防部會循正確的這個編列預算方式來做執行好 謝謝副部長那接下來我請劉施放部長"},{"start":251.207,"end":275.499,"text":"部長好我這個小局書裡面的內容本席有努力認真去研讀那裡面的APP我都有下載那當然在下載這些APP的時候我們有發現裡面兩個最希望大家去下載的APP一個是警政系統的APP另外一個是消防系統的APP那可是我們在看到的時候當然很多人在請教的就是說第一個"},{"start":276.341,"end":300.398,"text":"這樣警戰APP它是沒有離線地圖功能的那消防系統是有離線地圖功能的那當然在使用上會有大家認為有些好使用一些不好使用的一個部分可是我認為裡面資訊當然有一些正確與否或是兩個APP裡面的內容有關於避難收容人數不一致的一個部分我想是不是部長這邊有了解相關的情形那未來要如何來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":302.654,"end":319.721,"text":"好 謝謝 我想是不是請警察就像我剛剛這裡面有一個對 有一個是收容像我們立法院隔壁有一個收容處是可以收容1416人那另外一個APP裡面只有說可以收容645人那這樣的問題可是有一定的標準我是請他們很簡單跟委員會問一下好 請簡單說明一下"},{"start":324.919,"end":341.898,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個是我們警政APP他的一個防空避難的一個處所他裡面跟消防的這一個比如說那個在內部某一個地點他可能是消防組的他是用經緯度所以他就弄那邊"},{"start":342.682,"end":360.467,"text":"有兩個避難處所他可能同一個經緯度那就變成一個那我們是兩個避難處所所以這裡面統計出來的容納人數就會不一樣可是就我而言容納人數是應該是這個大樓他的面積能容納的人數好像跟經緯度我不知道關聯性在哪裡"},{"start":362.679,"end":379.583,"text":"那就是說 這個防空避難室的這個設置是依照建築技術規則設置而來所以建築技術規則在核准這個住宅裡面它的地下室可以容納多少人的時候它這個資料就會給我們這一個轄區的警察單位來列管它的防空避難室"},{"start":380.023,"end":399.29,"text":"那這個部分我簡單講實踐的關係那現在的差異數到底是要用警政還是用消防的報告委員我來回應一下好了就是警政跟消防系統他們所用的參數不一樣所以答案會不一樣一個不是用同一套標準一個有點位一個就是用那個地方的警政系統去做處理"},{"start":399.77,"end":425.478,"text":"那我跟委員報告如果真的碰到狀況的話呢你只要看到外面貼有那個防空避難的那個指引標誌就可以過去那人數的多寡的話我們會再做處理就是第一個因為我們可能是要收容外面的人裡面的譬如說住在內棟大樓沒有問題但是你那個大樓要對外開放那對外開放可以收容多少人這個部分呢需要再做一個比較詳細的評估所以這邊的答案是沒有錯誤的"},{"start":426.678,"end":445.209,"text":"沒有錯 人數不一致耶我剛講過了 因為他所引用的參數不一樣那我最後 因為剛剛謝謝部長 那部長特別有請到剛剛特別有提到 就是大樓地下室的收容人數那這邊喔 因為當時我們這個內政部也是請這個里長民政系統下去發放那我在想兩個問題 第一個是要請教說"},{"start":447.811,"end":462.147,"text":"未來這些大樓地下室的收容空間很多都是這個私人的大樓住宅這個部分會不會其實很多委員在提到會不會未來民眾要去避難的時候這些大樓是不開放的這些大樓在事前有沒有知道說他們"},{"start":462.848,"end":491.317,"text":"地下室是要給人家來避難收容的我們的地方警察機關去貼那個標示的時候呢大樓管委會員都知道而且如果有碰到空防警報發放的時候他們必須打開那這是根據我們民防法的規定好這是第一個問題所以部長這邊很明確指示未來這些大樓有被指示說是防空避難室的未來都一定要讓民眾進去避難嗎這是您的意思嗎不是"},{"start":492.219,"end":509.554,"text":"自己的大樓的民眾當然要往地下室避難但是外面如果有臨時過來的人的話呢那就是他在空房的時候呢就必須要對外開放在空房的時候才要對外開放好那好那最後我想要再請教部長的時候這個"},{"start":511.345,"end":533.016,"text":"我們現在所有的這個防災的問題我們有沒有因為我們說要請里長來協助嘛那未來有沒有希望說編一些預算給里長平時的做一些的防驗這個訓練的這個部分有報告委員我們有兩套一個就是防災協作中心的成立那另外一個呢就是防災式的訓練現在全台灣的村里長的防災式訓練已經達到三分之一以上"},{"start":533.576,"end":560.95,"text":"對 我說里長的防災是有取得資格那未來是不是有里內的一個整個防災的防災協作中心裡面就是會根據里的部分需要什麼樣子的一個應變準備物資放在鄉鎮公所或是區公所那如果里有需求的話呢我們會針對 因為我知道那個委員所說的可能是大里比較大的里那有需要協助的話呢我們會再跟縣市地方政府來做這個差異上面看怎麼樣處理比較好好 謝謝"},{"start":564.111,"end":564.132,"text":"好 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謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有國防部我們的伯父部長共同上台請內政部 國防部"},{"start":10.069,"end":15.431,"text":"委員早 部長早 副部長早我們今天要討論的是這個剛剛普發的這個台灣全民安全指引這一本書那我們很希望能夠了解它的目的過程以及效益好 那在這個過程當中我第一個想確認一下剛剛兩位都有上台報告所以在這一本安全指引的分工上面我是不是可以簡單認為這本書主要的編撰負責其實是國防部"},{"start":39.719,"end":44.002,"text":"但內政部其實是作為一個最重要的諮詢參考機關以及如何發送到全台灣各家各戶的手上我這樣認知的分工兩個部門這樣對嗎兩個部會我想委員講的正確包括憑證院跟國安會都有指導"},{"start":60.091,"end":64.714,"text":"好那在這樣簡單在這樣的過程當中我等一下的問題就會依照這樣的分工來請教兩位所以我先各請教一下請問副部長國防部我們博副部長這本書的目的你解答一下好不好委員我剛才報告非常清楚也就是說因應這個天然災害對天然災害在複合式災難發生的時候複合式災難尤其是比如說像花蓮艷澀湖事件都是一個在複合式災難裡面所"},{"start":89.753,"end":94.155,"text":"簡單講就是為了天災人禍的時候讓大家知道面對天災人禍人怎麼做好準備社會怎麼做好準備是這樣子的一個讓社會增加韌性這樣的狀況來部長請問一下劉部長請問一下那我們平常內政部過去有單獨的地震指引消防指引這樣子的狀況嗎也有嗎對不對我們以前大概都是透過這個網站上面來宣傳其實也都有對不對"},{"start":119.688,"end":137.804,"text":"但是我們覺得這個宣導性仍然會存在有數位落差沒有錯所以如果大家在數大家上網去看其實不管是在這個地震指引啊或者是防空指引或者是消防指引其實都有但這一本安全指引就是把它合而為一讓大家手上一本可以看到幾乎所有的天災人禍到底我們要怎麼面對所以這主要是這樣的一本書"},{"start":145.771,"end":169.603,"text":"我認為利益良善啊而且如果從剛剛兩位的報告當中從編轉加發送這樣全部的經費發送下來計算下來之後如果家戶都能夠拿到這樣一本合而為一的災難準備的安全指引守則其實一個家戶大概是6到7塊錢其實是很划算這樣的狀況如果大家能夠熟讀讓整個社會知道"},{"start":173.385,"end":186.8,"text":"面對災難你要怎麼做這其實一戶喔一家一戶六到七元我認為其實是划算的好 可是喔那我現在就伯父部長我想請教你的部分就是喔你這個在面對天災人禍的時候你還分成了平時就是災難還沒有來的時候和災難來了以後這樣子的狀況來做邊轉嘛"},{"start":195.509,"end":199.411,"text":"我認為這個相當不錯而且呢現在這本新版的守則裡面比起舊版的過去這條列式這樣非常教科書的狀況現在改成了插畫的漫畫式的這樣的圖式等等其實是讓大家比較好吸收你看左邊的是過去舊版的現在新版的這個部分其實是容易掌握很多好可是"},{"start":218.3,"end":219.341,"text":"我覺得啦天災人禍平時暫時你都分通的很好但你看這本書發送下來以後社會這次有在討論實質內容嗎比起2023年大家討論實質內容編轉的如何這次大家討論的是如何"},{"start":233.817,"end":250.221,"text":"其實我看到很多說法這次的說法最主要這本書發了以後是明年要打仗還是浪費公帑這個安全指引發送了就某程度宣布了台灣現在很危險準備要打仗了不投降 甚至還有一種說法是不投降從來都不是一個負責任的政府該做的甚至有人是拍下了照片說手冊已經是被當成廢紙丟到回收桶了"},{"start":262.08,"end":276.87,"text":"現在這本安全指引守則剛剛大家已經說了這是把過去所有的指引合而為一來面對天災人禍的總準備這樣的一本書可是現在坊間的說法是這樣請問國防部你對坊間現在這樣的輿論你有什麼回應你做了什麼報告員我想我們社會大眾對於我們這樣子守則的發放有很多的指教和批評"},{"start":289.554,"end":305.637,"text":"那我們國防部在意見中整上來講我們都會收整相關的意見作為下次的改進的一個參考那另外我必須要強調今天外面坊間所說的災難發生的時候或者是說你今天會有其他的"},{"start":306.502,"end":326.89,"text":"作战的这种想定的这种情况我想在我们今天面对一个强敌的一个情况之下我们任何的情况都必须要去做预先的推演那我们也是模仿现在俄乌战争以后在欧洲的这些国家他先进的国家也依照这个方法来制定他全民防卫手册的一个"},{"start":327.372,"end":335.238,"text":"全民防衛任性的一個要求所以我們比照這種精神和國際接軌也同時 副部長制定了這一本我尊重你的專業我也覺得你用心良苦利益良善編串這一本這本的內容我贊成但是我正是認為你的這本內容裡面少了你現在我質詢你的這個部分就是在平時面對錯假訊息你要怎麼處理什麼是錯假訊息我來看到縱觀全本守則裡面"},{"start":357.213,"end":370.986,"text":"其實這就只有19和20是在討論資訊的部分而且在平時對資訊的部分就只有第9頁啊這平時對資訊的部分你目前談的只有資安但沒有如何面對錯假訊息"},{"start":372.327,"end":376.648,"text":"而你現在第一步被面對的就是你這本指引出來就已經被攻擊成這是一本要宣誓作戰這是一本需要可以丟到回收桶這樣的狀況了這就是不正確的訊息嘛這跟剛剛我們上台在講這是一本教台灣人民面對天災人禍的時候最好的指引那你沒有回應啊部長 副部長對不起我們請讓劉部長上台一下"},{"start":399.704,"end":406.19,"text":"部長我知道內容不是你編轉的但是因為你平常比較常面對錯假訊息所以如果是您的話內政部來講的話當你做出一本這樣的指引卻有這麼多的錯假訊息出來的時候內政部假設如果是你負責的話你會怎麼做報告委員我相信提供這樣子的錯誤訊息的人可能不是在台灣出生長大"},{"start":420.403,"end":446.643,"text":"因为大家都知道台湾每一年的地震或者是天灾包括现在大家看到了这么多天灾的状况之下你要不要了解一下身处台湾这样子多灾多难的一个国家我们要不要看一下里面的内容所以我觉得提供这个讯息的要么就是公主病要么是王子病他可能是在无城市长大的所以无论怎么样所有台湾的人都不是公主也不是王子我希望先看一下内容再决定要不要丢到回收桶"},{"start":446.963,"end":450.465,"text":"好我們謝謝主席今天給我們這麼好的一個機會讓大家真正的來展示來了解一下這一本台灣全民安全指引裡面的內容到底在說什麼這是一本讓全國民眾了解天災人禍的時候你要怎麼做平時準備和災難來臨時的準備這不是一本宣告戰爭的書我認為國防部你作為一個主責單位"},{"start":474.139,"end":489.612,"text":"其實第一在內容裡面應該要增設台灣社會對錯假訊息的準備這是第一點第二即便在這個第一版反正你還會有好幾版嘛在這一版裡面如果沒有提到那你現在在態度上在行動上你就應該要來面對"},{"start":492.534,"end":509.387,"text":"當這本書發行之後的錯假訊息你要大大的公佈我期待今天的這個詢答的過程其實是你最好發揮的時候希望國防部內政部及相關單位能夠利用今天的詢答把這本安全指引到底目的是什麼報告全部台灣社會謝謝好 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請外交部吳政次來 吳次長請"},{"start":10.543,"end":39.655,"text":"好 次長早好 次長我們看到這個高市首相在上任後這一個月來不斷延續先前友台的立場那也承襲了過往這個安倍首相他的路線重振日本在印太戰略當中一個核心的地位那也提到更明確的一個政策立場來因應威權主義國家在區域當中日益增強的這個威脅還有影響力"},{"start":40.915,"end":54.182,"text":"近期備受關注的台灣有事說則是延續了安倍首相在2021年提出的相關的論述同樣的論述不但仍然符合區域的局勢"},{"start":56.704,"end":64.349,"text":"更看到中國表現出比先前更強烈的反應據報導指出中國駐聯合國代表傅聰已經在上週五致函給聯合國秘書長就相關的言論 闡明中國政府的立場"},{"start":76.796,"end":93.076,"text":"信中不但聲稱高市首相的言論嚴重違反國際法更表示必要的時候會行使聯合國的憲章和國際法賦予的自衛權和堅定的捍衛國家主權和領土的完整"},{"start":94.687,"end":111.205,"text":"但是在我們觀察到目前為止除了美國國務院對日本的聲援外國際社會至少比較少有反應或表態而次長您上週也到歐洲參加了柏林安全會議"},{"start":112.446,"end":130.481,"text":"就您所了解國際社會是否會理解並且認同高市首相的台灣有事說先前我們採取的是觀望和沉默的反應對台灣來說到底是利或是弊報告委員"},{"start":133.629,"end":157.739,"text":"高士首相講的這句話是11月7號啦我11月11號去歐洲去歐盟然後去柏林我覺得一般來講對於歐洲而言其實就如同剛才我提到就是說不是說幫助台灣或幫助誰啦台灣海峽的穩定現在是大家非常重要的利益"},{"start":159.138,"end":168.378,"text":"那裡面跑完就是說有太多的商船都要經過台灣海峽那歐洲外交上當然都不是火上加油"},{"start":169.69,"end":197.681,"text":"那所以我的感覺是怎樣一定要從其他方面去觀察各國的反應那我們就從G20最近高市去參加我們可以看到高市跟那義大利的手下Meloni非常熱烈的擁抱從這方面我們可以看到其實歐洲國家絕對是要降低可是降低那個風險可是對於中國的那個總領事在日本發言這麼激烈發言我想大家都是非常不以為然"},{"start":198.021,"end":214.254,"text":"所以我有提到一些私下談話有人講說像這樣情形是要立即召回可是立即召回也是會升高外交的那個那個對立嘛所以我們看到目前為止是沒有這樣的情形可是我覺得那個氣氛是怎樣台海的穩定絕對是最重要"},{"start":214.714,"end":236.679,"text":"目前在這個地方 極力擴張軍備的不是日本 而是中國所以我是感覺就是說 對我們來講遇到我們有越多的朋友 一定是越好日本 歐洲跟美國 我自己這樣的感覺對於台海穩定共同利益的力量是越來越強化"},{"start":237.839,"end":249.758,"text":"那這個利益正好就是我們台灣現在也要維護台海的安全穩定維護自由民主的利益是一致的所以在這方面我是看到一個全世界的一致性"},{"start":251.618,"end":268.64,"text":"那這次這個高市首相只是延續既定的一個立場反映地緣政治的現實就遭到中國這麼強烈的報復那基於台日之間的這個友誼我們理應有實際作為來支持日本像是在社群上"},{"start":269.321,"end":288.122,"text":"我們聲援鼓勵國人到日本旅遊或是支持水產等等但是我們對於所謂的台灣有事的事態是否有充分的理解和共識就如同我們外交部的業務報告當中指出實務上所謂台灣有事牽涉的範圍及"},{"start":290.004,"end":303.199,"text":"階段盛廣那日本會就實際的這個情況綜合來考量而我們因為和日本之間沒有制度性和同盟的這個關係也會基於我們國家安全的這個考量來做出相關的這個因應"},{"start":304.42,"end":319.683,"text":"那倘若接下來台灣和日本要從友好關係邁向安全同盟的關係對此我們外交部是否有實際的規劃或作為來增進台日之間對於台灣友事共同因應的基礎"},{"start":320.845,"end":336.548,"text":"報告委員 我以外交部的立場以及國際縣市來講實質跟盟邦跟日本來維護共同利益跟台灣海峽的穩定安全 我想是最重要的"},{"start":337.469,"end":342.735,"text":"一個安全條約的建立以目前中國的立場我覺得不見得是 我說簽一個正式的安全條約不見得是最好的方法我舉個例子 烏克蘭在1994年跟美國跟英國跟蘇聯 那個時候的蘇聯"},{"start":358.652,"end":361.655,"text":"簽訂了一個和平安全條約保障烏克蘭的安全因為那時候他們放棄了核武這是正式條約2004年跟中國也簽了一個維護和平的安全條約因為他們加入中國的一帶一路有世界四大強權的條約安全保障可是他自然被侵略了"},{"start":384.456,"end":397.622,"text":"實質進行跟其他盟邦的安全合作我想目前是比較務實的一個做法外交部在這方面我們也努力跟日本從這方面來做至於正式條約的簽訂我想目前我們並沒有這樣的一個做法"},{"start":404.665,"end":408.848,"text":"市長你還漏掉一個中國跟香港的50年不變對 沒有錯香港的民主本來是一個國際安全條約的保障是中國跟英國在1996年簽的但是因為世人認為香港是中國一部分你一旦被視為是中國的國內事務的家務事任何國際安全條約都保障不了所以我們外交部的做法是絕對避免"},{"start":433.226,"end":445.663,"text":"讓世界各國認為台灣是中國的國內事務或家務事務接下來我想以日本最西端也是最南端的與那國島來和市長做一個討論"},{"start":448.806,"end":475.075,"text":"在這個高市首相先生的這個談話當中他也曾經以這個與那國島只距離台灣的距離只有110公里為例那以此說明台灣有事必然會牽動到日本的一個相關的安全那這一座島嶼人口總共有1600多人在天氣晴朗的時候甚至從宜蘭的蘇澳就能用肉眼看得到"},{"start":476.115,"end":480.404,"text":"那日本去年因應這個台灣有事擬定針對沖繩12萬居民的這個撤離計畫與那國島同樣具有高度的這個戰略意涵"},{"start":486.943,"end":516.632,"text":"那日本自衛隊自從這個2016年進駐160人的這個沿岸監視隊後來又進駐了電戰部隊那未來還預計部署飛彈等等我們也看到這個防衛大臣這個小泉進次郎在昨天到這個與那國島視察同時試圖爭取地方的支持以推動後續的這個基地還有裝備的相關部署那我想請教次長就是從與那國島的這個位置來看"},{"start":517.173,"end":523.844,"text":"他對於美日台之間的這個安保有何重要性那我們是否應該建立常態的這個對話或協調的相關機制"},{"start":527.065,"end":556.11,"text":"我想日本是一個主權獨立的國家日本對於保護自己領土的安全有權利做他所要做的所有事情當然這個條件不能威脅到其他國家就這一點 雲納國島因為離台灣很近日本強化在上面的軍事設施我認為基本上是有幫助於維護台海的安全所以我們當然是對於這樣的事情我們覺得"},{"start":556.89,"end":585.832,"text":"是對我們的國家利益事實上是有幫忙的因為日本對台灣基本上是沒有領土的聲張跟敵意的那至於跟日本是否要進行這樣的對話我想跟日本各方面的對話一直在進行當中因為日本現在被我們視為是like-minded country就是理念相近國家那美國跟日本就台海的安全當然我們希望跟兩國有進行充分的合作"},{"start":586.512,"end":611.67,"text":"讓我們這個地區的自由和平民主可以繼續維持所以對話我們一定是有持續在進行的因為台灣和雲南國島之間我們有這個地緣性還有歷史因素的相關的情感那在2023年的時候我們當時游錫堃院長也曾經率同中央和地方的首長還有我們觀光及醫療業者前往雲南國島交流"},{"start":612.47,"end":635.706,"text":"希望能夠推動雙方觀光和直航的相關開放不過後續似乎沒有太大的進展除了島上的設施量能問題外似乎也和軍事部署有些關係我們從近期的新聞得知由於島上面臨沒有醫生進駐也缺乏藥劑師的醫療困境對於島民的日常需求可能相當不便"},{"start":636.286,"end":662.349,"text":"既然今年已經有基隆到石垣島的航班作為先例那我想請教次長我們是不是應該加強與宇納國島往來能否促進民生物資還有醫療物資的建立流通管道在觀光交流上順利推動直航有沒有可能我想我們樂觀其成你就四個字而已我們樂觀其成那你也太摘要了"},{"start":663.57,"end":686.142,"text":"希望我回答我可以再說明一下我想我們的在對於協助友好鄰國的有關人道還有各項的文化交流醫療我們覺得我們一定會這樣做我舉個例子我們太平島有沒有在其實離我們非常遠我們在那邊的許多設施都是在協助菲律賓跟越南可能會有困難的難民"},{"start":688.823,"end":699.438,"text":"所以台灣透過像這樣的一個人道醫療的協助來促進跟我們友好國家的關係我想這就是我們外交部我們政府一貫的政策 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.179,"text":"主席有請外交部次長以及國安局副局長兩位兩位請"},{"start":16.972,"end":33.628,"text":"两位首长好这个大家都承受了这个很大的压力面对国际动态局势的变化那么听取了今天双方啊有一些很深入的报告我这边提出一个建言第一个我们跟日方的沟通啊"},{"start":34.741,"end":51.714,"text":"不要用台湾有事用台海有事台海是一个怎么讲一个是泛战略性的议题就说台海有事是中共出招台湾有事对中共来讲是外力介入所以用台海有事台海的范畴没有明确的定义"},{"start":52.515,"end":73.516,"text":"但是台湾有事就变成属于管辖权主权问题就特别复杂了所以第一个用台海有事当台海有事的时候它会链接到南海东海甚至到朝鲜半岛台湾海峡每天通过的货柜运输量占全球的25%"},{"start":75.816,"end":80.506,"text":"那麼這個經濟的量在海線交通上佔全球的15%"},{"start":84.448,"end":110.786,"text":"台海有事 中国大陆也有事为什么呢中国大陆在长江外面的阳山港舟山群岛除了战略除油以外阳山港是全世界最大的货柜码头它一个阳山港的吞吐量超过美国所有港口的总和一年进出的货柜4730万个货柜"},{"start":113.092,"end":138.516,"text":"这个货柜又占了中国大陆吞吐量进口40%台海占全球25%这个25%里面有到台湾有到日本到韩国到中国大陆但中国大陆又占了进口的40%这个支持它的一带一路如果台海有事中国的一带一路也受损所以用这种方式来函结没有赢家"},{"start":139.929,"end":159.509,"text":"如果起冲突大家都是输家所以要维持区域性的和平对等跟友善的盟邦对话这是很重要的另外就是说我想两个单位除了看了这个中方的这个威责恐吓的言辞以外还有日本的论述以外"},{"start":161.124,"end":187.114,"text":"我们对对话过程还有中间谈话的过程除了文件内容以外请问两单位有没有对政治思想或者是心理学去判断他们谈话的心态我给您看一下这个照片国际谈判除了事后分析谈话的内容以外聚焦四个重点眼神方向 嘴部表情"},{"start":188.393,"end":215.132,"text":"脸部表情嘴角的示意肢体的距离你看左边上面这个习大大在看这个高市首相的时候我看你怎么说那高市首相是顾左右言他一个是用硬实力去压对方一个是说我有软实力你在看右下角这个图你看这个川普总统说我看你说什么那"},{"start":216.263,"end":229.615,"text":"这个高市首相是说你想听什么因为川普总统啊是说我用锐实力但是呢首相说我有韧实力所以在这种国际情势中间呢政治是在务虚"},{"start":230.839,"end":256.708,"text":"产业经济是要务实国家力量是靠整合最后是要发挥任实力今天这个谈提到了日本在日本政府在2022年修订了保安三文件安保三文件第一个国家安全保障战略它的英文版就是国家安全战略national security strategy然后国家防卫战略"},{"start":258.271,"end":285.203,"text":"防卫力量准备计划这三个跟美国实际上1986年的高尼法案是一样的美国有国家安全战略然后有国防战略美国在2017年把它的四年期国防总检取消了QD取消了改成四年发行一本国家安全战略然后军事战略我们国家我一直本席一直在强烈建议我们政府"},{"start":287.196,"end":300.67,"text":"国家安全法是反渗透防止别人对我们的内部破坏跟国家安全战略毫无关联国家安全战略最主要是整体国家利益做跨部会整合的"},{"start":301.567,"end":319.476,"text":"表述最主要是基于你的国家安全战略对于你的国家核心利益外国政府有一个明确的了解这个我们在任何场合都建议我们政府在这个任内一定要推出我们的国家安全战略那我们目前还在学习美国的QDR"},{"start":320.938,"end":343.569,"text":"从上一个版本43页对国家安全战略里面的言辞只有1.5页4年后今年出的版本变成59页了对国防讲了大概4页国防报告书也增加了从4页变6页但是这个相对跟我们的友邦友好国家跟日本比起来差太多了"},{"start":344.437,"end":363.371,"text":"日本有韩国有这个当然美国是原企英国澳洲都有所以我们这个方面一定要有一个发展出的战略不然呢就说跨部会的协商就会产生出弱点那我请教一下这个自由开放印太是哪一年开始的FOIP这没关系啊这个"},{"start":375.284,"end":384.204,"text":"習近平在2013年啟動了一個他的所謂的大戰略就是一帶一路原來叫OBOR後來叫BRI"},{"start":386.056,"end":413.392,"text":"那美国在川普总统在2017年就启动了自由开放印太作为对应但是这个FIP完了以后他觉得不够他又成立一个亚太经济机构就是IPAF那都是有对应性的东西那从这个结果我们去看下一张我们对所有的论述就是日方的立场日本的态度日方解义他的意涵"},{"start":414.366,"end":436.568,"text":"来看中国大陆他的立场他的态度他的行动这是分析的方法论我们通常都是写一篇报告就是有点像战斗文学但是没有结构性的分析那这个图你可以看到日国人的态度他认为国家存亡及经济发展的关键在台海安全"},{"start":437.449,"end":463.534,"text":"台海不要讲台湾那如果台湾的贸易经济受损是全世界都受伤因为你的晶圆进口输出料配件输出你的电力中断所以用台海取代台湾问题这是一个比较好的比较宽容的方法跟所有的友邦接那中国大陆至于呢他不容外界干涉了他这个讲话我们看看就好那再看下一张那"},{"start":465.097,"end":493.462,"text":"这个日向高市它的安保东西修正的东西这就是我刚刚提出的我们要建议我们的政府在这个任内一定要公布我们的国家安全战略那才有国防战略那要把QDR四年期总减改成国防战略最后才是你的军事战略那提升GDP我们每个国家的总和不一样那有自己的因素这里面有美方的反应有中方的反应"},{"start":496.038,"end":505.472,"text":"最后就是讲到第一岛链是拒止中共军事向外扩张的一个重要防线美日安保条约是必要的军事合作法规"},{"start":506.772,"end":534.529,"text":"我们中华民国在台湾是不能缺席的地缘战略的枢纽但是高市对这个话讲出来有什么影响呢比较加剧了中日之间的猜疑增添了美国大国竞争中的变数也牵动了台海和平稳定的复杂程度所以我们的一个回补修正的建议就是说不提台湾问题而用台海问题是比较容易解套的"},{"start":535.109,"end":562.719,"text":"另外一个就是说封锁台海是一个意识上的名词它并没有blockade zone的范围涵盖所以说它可能用的是cursive quarantine用微折的这个临检它不需要封锁因为现在每一条船根据这个IMO的你的这个要求都有你的国旗你的数码装载从哪到哪都可以知道所以在海上要拦检是很容易根本不需要"},{"start":563.519,"end":591.805,"text":"宣布的封锁所以我们的方法做到和平发展的国家目标以及国际社会的共同期待原则和平必战战备胜战而且要能战止战那做法就是国防民生合一维持两岸对话交流参与国际有盟的机遇我拿这些东西作为像这个次党跟副局长做一个建言我看看是不是请教一下这个次党您给我们一些回应"},{"start":598.436,"end":626.159,"text":"報告委員我想你的說法跟我其實是我的說法跟你都一直很類似的我去歐洲在談的我現在其實都不是談說幫忙台灣而是怎麼樣台海的和平穩定安全是大家共同的利益所以大家要盡力去維護台灣的共同利益因為就國際關係就外交上的現實他們為什麼要幫我們有時候也講說沒有那個理由所以共同維護台海利益就是符合那個委員講的我一直說"},{"start":627,"end":641.241,"text":"朝著發走謝謝委員的建議謝謝副局長這邊您謝謝委員那剛委員提的這個觀點很感謝委員提出來的指導事實上我們看到國際聲稱很多包括美國歐盟"},{"start":642.282,"end":667.824,"text":"日本相關的美盟國家都強調台海和平的穩定跟至關重要至關國際的一個重要所以呢這個部分是符合現在的一個趨勢也把台海穩定相對保障了我們台灣的安全所以這個部分後續我們會按照這樣的一個論述來去做密切的觀察國際情勢的變化謝謝委員指導謝謝大家共同努力謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"165759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781036ebe1add9aeb77da0652d1d50d7223a569bc65e346f37e4cdab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:07:37 - 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媒體上都有揭露說台灣 要台灣資助美軍在菲律賓的軍事基地的升級工程簡單來講就是因為菲律賓距離台灣很近那麼台灣出錢修他們的比如說跑道啦 其他的一些的設施這樣子的話要來幫忙台灣比較方便有沒有這回事"},{"start":50.051,"end":78.549,"text":"來 國安局副局長快點 來包委員 目前我們有接收到這樣的請訊沒有有沒有我們沒有接到這樣的請訊那個另外因為CC認為可以透過FMS就是對外的軍售計畫參與就台灣協助日本 西南諸島的一些類似這個 就工程上的建設有沒有這個東西"},{"start":81.192,"end":104.697,"text":"包委員一樣沒有介紹這樣的情訊那個外交部的吳次長要不要回答一下吳次長有沒有介紹這個東西是有這樣的一個政策建議有啊 怎麼沒有呢有討論啦但是政策建議很多事情是可以討論的我方便到目前並沒有要我請教你它的日本西南諸島有沒有包括真立最大的釣魚台 有沒有"},{"start":107.865,"end":115.674,"text":"日本的西南諸島西南諸島 當然有啊你就看啊日本的地圖西南下來就掉一台在上面了再過來台灣 再過來菲律賓所以那也就是說"},{"start":120.185,"end":142.578,"text":"就是說美國的國會會建議台灣出錢去幫忙美軍在這些地方的一些的軍事的一些的我們叫什麼叫做supporting的一些一些非軍事的啦但是比如跑道啦這些設施等等的這些軍事用地什麼之類的對吧"},{"start":146.574,"end":160.575,"text":"我的理解從我年輕念書到現在台灣或中華民國跟美國在各方面的合作一直是我們一貫的政策所以這個如果是有這樣的一個做法我想就是我們過去來一貫的政策"},{"start":160.936,"end":170.384,"text":"你不覺得我們現在已經被扒了好幾層皮欸台美關稅我們又被要求投資四千億美金然後又來這一條錢這錢多少錢你知道嗎也不知道多少錢然後就是要叫我們買單美國在國際上在國外的一些軍事基地的維修要台灣出錢這是哪一門的邏輯啊"},{"start":186.918,"end":190.661,"text":"這個邏輯會不會把台灣真的真的叛逆叛逆加三級難道不是這樣子嗎外交部有答應嗎"},{"start":196.245,"end":206.253,"text":"呃 剛才提到那是政策建議而已啊現在目前為止那我想我們跟美國的各方面的合作討論是有助於維護台灣海峽的一個安全市長啊 這個要說NO啦 不能這樣子啦台灣錢不是大風刮來的啦大家辛辛苦苦 納稅人一點一滴好 我們再看今天的主題啊日向 這個是高市長所說到的"},{"start":220.745,"end":226.847,"text":"我能不能解讀為他講的就是台灣有事 日本會出兵可不可以這樣解釋可不可以 市長我想這好像可不可以我想高市首相並沒有這樣直接解釋法所以我們也不用過度去白話文就是這樣或者講不排除出兵就這樣說 可以嗎"},{"start":244.161,"end":250.549,"text":"我想 任何一個主權國家都有權利都用他想要做的事情來維護他自己的國家安全他講了這個話 我知道很多人大家覺得說 兩個大國打起來對台灣很好可是我覺得大家要三思"},{"start":259.941,"end":274.202,"text":"多少專家我的經驗沒有任何一次我這次兩個禮拜沒有任何一個國說兩個大國打起來是很好的事情每一個國家包含聯合國發言人的回憶都是怎麼樣希望降低中國跟日本之間的緊張關係你認為兩個國家會不會打起來"},{"start":276.886,"end":296.874,"text":"我認為目前不會目前不會 未來也不會是不是因為大陸所要引用聯絡國憲章的敵國條款因為他們是戰敗國包括德國 義大利 日本戰敗國他如果有侵犯到別人的話可以直接動武不需要再經過安理會"},{"start":298.894,"end":322.8,"text":"這個能不能適用報告委員聯合國成立的時候簽署國並不是中華人民共和國而是我們中華民國所以我想他去引用我們中華民國簽的條約好像也不太適當但是這個條款在那裡沒有拿掉雖然沒有廢掉 還留著實質上大家認為沒有意義可是它還留在那裡所以你認為它什麼時候可以降溫兩國"},{"start":326.156,"end":344.107,"text":"什麼時候可以降溫報告委員 我想降溫真的是有賴於日本跟中國他們自己彼此的一個外交要做什麼 因為這個並不是跟我們中華民國不是跟我們中華民國直接的衝突所以我想這還是由日本跟美國來處理"},{"start":346.488,"end":360.866,"text":"各國都有在協助想辦法降低兩國的衝突因為真的這個地區的區域的區域和平安全是全世界的共同利益沒有一個國家有利益讓美國有介入嗎我說最後一句話美國有介入這個事情嗎"},{"start":364.147,"end":378.418,"text":"美國有表達對日本的支持我想國務院跟美國駐日大使是有表達對日本的支持那這兩個都是我們的盟邦可是老公還是不甩啊老公現在拼命在升級啊現在還在往上爬啊這個才令人擔心的最後一小點我覺得賴清德總統太不厚道了利用這一次兵荒馬亂啦這個呼嚕呼嚕沒有預警的開放"},{"start":396.145,"end":404.319,"text":"核輔導核災食品進來了欸沒有經過一定的程序就這樣子可以全面開放欸這個東西你不用回答我時間到了齁這個這個莫名其妙就噴了這叫渾水摸魚啊這是渾水摸魚的行為啊"}]}},{"id":"165758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781032cac9096fa2b6bbd408e1b0d34147d1469bc65e346f37e4c083d1f73e27fc1505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:02:11 - 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我們有請部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長保重今天我要請教的是越世界這個怎麼變成垃圾山的這個議題我看到這一家這個祐宏公司事實上他是有合法去登記在案的一個公司"},{"start":30.925,"end":55.955,"text":"但是我看到整個過程他是不是用合法來掩護他的非法這個我覺得是環境部你們要非常注意因為我去調出來之前這個地方政府裁罰他的紀錄事實上他過去違法的紀錄蠻多的甚至他有一塊空地他都在堆置這一些失業廢棄物或者是生活垃圾等等"},{"start":56.875,"end":79.253,"text":"但是這樣子的一個違法堆置其實地方政府通通都用42條來裁罰所以42條罰的很輕就是都不到3萬然後去上個課兩個小時為什麼違法堆置不是用比較重的這個廢清法46條而是用比較輕的42條"},{"start":81.375,"end":89.865,"text":"這是不是因為覺得他已經有合法登記了所以就重新處理這個事情你們有沒有去深入去探究"},{"start":91.554,"end":117.259,"text":"因為他是46條的第3款跟第10款的刑責其實他的你看他這個罰的這個費用都是十幾萬有幾萬到幾萬並不是只有6000塊啦所以其實是的確是他們都引用42條你回去看地方政府高雄市政府他罰的都是42條他沒有引用46條那之前的是用36條啦所以是6000到300萬不是不是之前這個"},{"start":118.679,"end":143.034,"text":"可能部長今天身體微恙齁我要跟你講 那個要不要署長來回答他整個齁 你自己去調出來你們到目前為止都沒有調出來我已經調出來他的整個裁罰紀錄裁罰紀錄裡面都是引用42條所以我就很納悶啊違法堆置 這很多的那個理由都是違法堆置那違法堆置為什麼是引用42條呢署長你說 為什麼報委員齁"},{"start":147.034,"end":174.131,"text":"那個 這裡我們的法對於4月7日會有6千到3百萬他會依照他的程度那各個案不一樣所以有不一樣的猜法不過現在發生的這一案是引用46條而且移送檢調偵辦我知道啊 那之前的我要告訴你之前他已經多次違反而且非法堆置非法堆置為什麼是42條你要告訴我"},{"start":175.692,"end":198.062,"text":"是地方政府引用錯誤 還是故意去用比較新的條文42條這個署長你要解釋啊報告委員 應該是不會說引用錯誤啦 他還是會經過那個因為他要用條文的時候 在縣市政府裡面都會有類似而且他已經是多次違反了 為什麼都是一直用42條"},{"start":199.162,"end":225.48,"text":"他會依照他堆置的量或地點犯罪的這個違法的程度我覺得高雄市政府其實就是重新來處理嘛我不知道他為什麼要重新處理照道理來講他不是第一次喔他是多次已經是個累犯結果你在懲罰上面如果不是今天爆發出這個完全已經揭露在媒體把越世界變垃圾山這麼嚴重的情況"},{"start":227.521,"end":249.951,"text":"還要繼續縱放他嗎 繼續輕放嗎繼續用這種微不足道的來上課兩個小時然後懲罰都沒有超過五萬塊這個是不痛不癢啊所以我要求這個環境部你們要去督導地方政府啊就是說你到底你是怎麼在管理的我現在很擔心是以幼紅這一個案例來講"},{"start":250.891,"end":279.189,"text":"他就是去申請一個 有啊 他有登記啊他有登記在案啊 他有一個牌照但是私底下又偷偷摸摸去勾結台南當地的這一些然後還 我覺得最離譜的是把台南的家戶的垃圾也都敢這樣子運到這個越世界然後直接大量的 十幾趟欸十幾趟的這個垃圾車 就這樣子違法侵盜這個真的是無法無天啊所以我覺得你們應該要好好去督導啊"},{"start":280.029,"end":300.484,"text":"地方政府怎麼是這樣子在管理的呢如果說他是出犯那沒有話講不是啊你們自己去調出來看啊很多次了非常多次結果竟然是引用42條我覺得這個大有問題啊好好去查一查吧另外一個我們來看一下"},{"start":302.298,"end":328.504,"text":"我們說中央要這個電子圍理 這個上次我也問過但是這一次你看他的手法他們自己一輛自駕車然後還可以去顧那個路口然後就可以這樣子違法的十幾趟的把這個垃圾堆到四五層樓高我們的公權力沒有辦法發現那我們的智慧圍理射到哪裡去了"},{"start":329.384,"end":351.352,"text":"完全沒有辦法監控而且他們更大膽的是他可以跨縣市的犯案怎麼可以從台南然後運到高雄去我們的政府通通都不知道他不是偷運了一趟是高達十幾趟結果我們的智慧圍籬完全沒有效果這要怎麼改善我上次其實就問過你們說可以沒有問題沒有問題這個就有問題馬上就爆發出來了"},{"start":358.888,"end":361.249,"text":"這個情況我們未來還要編列23億5298萬1千元繼續要加裝這個智慧為理"},{"start":368.866,"end":389.468,"text":"如果連這一個都抓不到那以後我們裝的那個真的有辦法去達到阻嚇這一些非法的業者然後這樣子胡亂破壞我們的環境 清刀垃圾的問題嗎保委員 現在就是因為我們自衛委理是從明年度預算開始執行所以是說現在做的不夠"},{"start":390.589,"end":404.879,"text":"現在我們其實裝的數量相當的少不過效果很好就是說在一些重點那你高雄現在有裝嗎高雄有裝幾隻啦我們全國其實那他現在辦案的這個地方你們有裝嗎沒有那個數量實在太少"},{"start":407.521,"end":423.518,"text":"所以我們剛才委員講的23億那個部分是全國會有2000點那目前大概都是十幾點而已我們在重點去裝而已所以我們期待我們大院能夠支持這次的維理計畫我想會改善相當的多以上"},{"start":424.485,"end":451.087,"text":"我覺得這個真的是太誇張了這個業者他根本就是公然在挑戰我們的公權力發生這種事情這個如果上了國際媒體對台灣的形象傷害真的很大可以把一個觀光景點變成垃圾山感覺我們好像是無政府狀態所以這件事情中央跟地方都有督導不周的責任特別是地方政府怎麼可以長期縱容這樣子的一個"},{"start":452.128,"end":476.393,"text":"他號稱是合法的環保業者還是當地的里長然後渾然不知讓他可以在這邊大肆的破壞高雄的這一個地貿環境這個真的是這個部長你今天身體不舒服你不用講很多話但是我希望你要知道這個是中央你對於地方政府如果有這樣一個情況我也很擔心不是只有一例"},{"start":477.173,"end":502.86,"text":"你知道嗎從一個個案裡面我剛一再強調的有沒有人用合法來掩護非法這樣的一個問題我覺得是你們要有很高的敏感度那我覺得這次地方政府對於長期這樣的現象的漠視他甚至不敢去重罰我覺得這個都要看到啊地方是不是盤根錯節這樣的關係該展現公權力的時候完全沒有大肆的去整頓"},{"start":503.74,"end":521.85,"text":"我覺得這個是你作為中央主管機關作為部長你要好好去整頓好不好那最後一個我要講的是那個CCPR2026指標我剛有聽到你在回覆這個委員當然你會覺得說他們的績效這個不公平但是我要提醒部長"},{"start":522.91,"end":540.717,"text":"事實上在2020年的時候你自己也承認了人均碳排太高你當時不是部長的時候你也承認了那你現在作為部長你更有責任要來改善這樣的一個情況所以與其去批評人家的國際指標說哎呀他不公平"},{"start":541.557,"end":557.062,"text":"畢竟人家也是做了17年了怎麼樣的不公平他們持續性的對於63個國家去做這樣子的一個評估我們還是要敬佩人家這樣的一個精神不是只有說我們成績不好就說人家不公平"},{"start":557.702,"end":581.188,"text":"基本上台湾的表现这几年都不好都在倒数五名不是倒数第五名就是倒数第四名都在这边徘徊而已所以它其实这样的一个指标还是有意义的它在提醒我们台湾我们追求经济发展的同时事实上我们减碳的速度的确是不够快的我们连台中火力发电厂燃煤机组要让它关掉"},{"start":582.929,"end":604.189,"text":"這個連中央政府都有意見如果是這樣子的情況我們火力排放的比例佔的這麼高人家說我們溫室氣體排放是表現是差的我們減排10%達不到我覺得他不是完全無所本這個真的是我們自己要好好思考的我們的能源政策就出了很大的問題"},{"start":605.47,"end":622.481,"text":"就是如果我們要一昧的我們根本做不到但我們高喊非核家園然後那個核能完全不用坦白講我們台灣能用的就很有限再生能源的發展坦白講也很有限我們地小人稠"},{"start":623.422,"end":645.601,"text":"所以我們不可能我們不是美國也不是中國大陸我們沒有大量的土地面積我們也沒有豐沛的水利資源所以再生能源本身我們就會受到一定的限制這個是我們要從能源政策好好的去盤點嘛所以這件事情呢我覺得與其去挑戰說人家國際17年的評比指標說有一些不公平"},{"start":646.181,"end":674.231,"text":"我們更需要做的其實是反省我們自己我們真的檢探的速度不夠快雖然有改善但是跟人家國際很多國家比較起來我們人均碳排真的就是高啊這個是你2020講過的這也是事實啊你當時講的這句話我覺得很好啊這是事實啊務實的面對我覺得比較重要所以我想這個部長你現在有權利就是如何檢探就是整個政府特別是"},{"start":675.071,"end":697.994,"text":"我覺得我們真的沒有不用核能的條件所以最近經濟部看起來好像有點醒了就是核三想要再研議了我覺得這是好的方向是晚了一點但是我們就承認在我們的天然能源結構條件不足的情況底下如果要減碳必須啟用部分的核能我覺得這是沒有辦法迴避的議題所以我希望這一題"},{"start":699.136,"end":706.45,"text":"這個部長 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我想請部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好最近應該您也有看到因為我看到您有對新聞進行一些回應也就是我們現在被這個氣候變遷績效指標CGPI評為非常低的一個等級不好意思 幫我按一下下一張"},{"start":29.608,"end":43.056,"text":"那我們在這個排名是第59啦那我知道您對他有一些疑慮因為你對評分標準你可不可以簡短的講一下你認為他的評比為什麼對台灣不太公平"},{"start":44.808,"end":63.243,"text":"第一個是說他對於這個每個國家的這個人均的這個排碳的比的目標台灣很嚴格所以我們其實他把我們跟韓國跟日本都打得特別低可是你看到像印度啊或是根本沒有在減碳的國家都在我們前面他的容許值就比較很高這第一個"},{"start":63.843,"end":92.558,"text":"第二個是像這個如果要評這些東西你的排單量一直持續的增加我們持續往下減可是在他的這個指標分數裡面完全表現不出來最重要的是說因為我參加過國際這種評審他等於是把每一個人的成績單這不是考試喔是因為每一個人的考試是很單一的可是這個NDC是很複雜的如果可以很NDC排名排出來的話全世界無法排名的所以他把這個很定性的把它變成定量化"},{"start":93.178,"end":109.054,"text":"其實這個都需要評審委員還有一個副審的機制因為我參與過國際的副審類似的工作我做過所以我認為他這樣做他在台灣只有找幾位NGO的人士來代表那我有點懷疑說他的副審的機制是不是那麼的完整報案下一張"},{"start":110.427,"end":134.711,"text":"當然之前我看2021年你們也曾經抗議過這件事但我覺得比較麻煩的是說很多國際組織所統計出來的報告對我們的評分其實我們的環境部從2021年然後至今像上次的這個IQ air等等公布我們空污是全球第54名我們都會認為有爭議啦那我們認為有爭議也有我們的對於他的算法所不同的看法"},{"start":135.811,"end":161.841,"text":"那這邊的話我是想跟你具體的比較討論因為我看了整份環境部的報告那我發現說環境部的報告一直糾結在他的評分標準啊然後他的排名啊但是你卻沒有跟我們全國人民分析說其實他的報告後面有一整段的英文的建議所以我今天主要是想跟你討論一一的討論他英文的建議還有環境部在其中扮演的角色下一張"},{"start":163.697,"end":187.418,"text":"好我們看他一開始就在講說你剛提到的碳排我們從2005一直到2024其實是下降9.6%這也是你剛講的數據可是在CCPI他的認定10%是他的弱減量所以我們對於弱減量的目標都可能沒有辦法達成的話你有沒有什麼具體覺得你可以改進的地方"},{"start":188.291,"end":212.45,"text":"包委這個他們的建議也是國內的那三位的環團的專家寫提出的建議並不是CCPI他整體的建議這個就是他的問題他不是一個國際的專家一個統整的那個內容而是說每個在地的NGO被他那個國家自己打了一個分數這個就是他最大的問題但他裡面也有四個國際組織一起在評分其中也不乏你一直滿想加入的一些國際組織嘛"},{"start":214.612,"end":221.701,"text":"所以你覺得這樣子9.6你很滿意了當然他的算法9.6要不要請我們署長來說明一下"},{"start":223.223,"end":246.909,"text":"跟委員報告他其實他的評比裡面他的數據的部分的話他的溫室氣體排放量他不是以我們的下降的趨勢他是設計的每一個國家他自己設了一個人均的排放量來作為評對他把我們台灣設成說我們到2030年的人均是2.26但是英國他又把他設成是4點多所以是"},{"start":248.129,"end":265.448,"text":"就是我们在跟CCPI在讨论它不合理的地方你们有做一些回文吗你们有做一些回复吗给CCPI吗每一年你们都有回复它好 那我们下一张再来它这个也是给我们一个建议它的意思是说"},{"start":266.249,"end":295.749,"text":"我們由燃煤大幅的擴張LNG那他認為說我們在持續擴張LNG的使用削弱了整體的氣候的野心那他也說我們的政府是把天然氣包裝為乾淨的過度的燃料這個敘事具有誤導性所以在現行的政策中他認為我們是缺乏法律明定燃煤退場的時程也缺乏明確的化石燃料的減量的策略這一點我知道您"},{"start":296.389,"end":316.65,"text":"可能沒有辦法具體的去參與這件事但是你有沒有考慮跟經濟部還有國發會一同來討論包委員 這個German Watch它就是一個不大的NGO啦因為我十幾年前就有去跟他們argue他們評比每年都很奇怪啦我當面都有指責過 你去上網查我以前有問他過 例如說有一年英國"},{"start":317.37,"end":332.45,"text":"全部啟動核能他把它變成第一名那我說是不是核能的因素我就直接問他他也答得很奇怪那你覺得他給我們的建議是對的嗎因為他覺得我們沒有明定燃煤的退場時程這不是他的建議也缺乏化石的燃料減量的策略"},{"start":333.112,"end":352.887,"text":"他是針對他是這個那是三位本地的專家給的建議啦那基本上國際上對於這個LNG他的確還是一個過渡型的他相對的排汰量比較低然後他的這個比較乾淨一點點所以其實還是屬於一個過渡型的這個這個這個點是沒有錯但是他有他的他的意思說我們沒有時程"},{"start":353.707,"end":377.405,"text":"我们没有实诚具体的实诚我们有实诚我们到2030 2035甚至2050年那个能源配比都有一个目标所以你也没有觉得他这样子说我们过度包装成干净的过度燃料你也觉得他这件事情讲的不对其实他这个就是个人说的这个是the experts某些专家说的就是国内那三位专家说的好那我们下一张"},{"start":378.553,"end":394.852,"text":"下一張的話前面你可能也必須要跟交通部去做一些溝通跟協調當然他對於我們全面的電動化運具公車啊汽機車等等好建物的碳中和執行的進度嚴重的落後並且除了主要都市以外呢公共運輸仍不發達這一點"},{"start":397.395,"end":424.963,"text":"我知道你也很努力你也很努力可是交通部也必須要跟上你的腳步那再來他就提到再生能源了他說再生能源很嚴重的是緩慢而且前後不一致我們本來2025年希望可以達到25%到目前只有達到15%他講出來他也我覺得他對我們的政府也有蠻深入的了解他覺得台灣其實舊根本是電網的基礎老舊整合能力不足所以限制了再生能源的發展再來土地的使用爭議還有生態衝擊"},{"start":427.063,"end":439.488,"text":"以及這些種種的貪瀆醜聞使得公共信任不足還有一些綠能廠商他退出台灣的時候也對國際媒體做一些投書這些他們都有去看所以這點你認為我們有改進的空間嗎這當然有改進的空間"},{"start":443.449,"end":459.124,"text":"過去我們的對於太陽光電不管是地方在蓋章的時候太多人可以蓋要蓋三十幾個章所以也給很多人上下其所的機會所以也造成一些弊案我們也看到了所以這個行政院也積極在處理這個事情那當然啦過去的光電的這個爭議或是風電的這個評估"},{"start":462.647,"end":488.31,"text":"這個大家都過去都有討論那我們也同意那我認為這個時候是一個重新建立一個信心的方式我們還是需要綠電因為這次的這個協定裡面還是呼應COVID-28的這個再生能源還是要成長的好那以上我總結因為你可能需要找國發會經濟部交通部內政部去做一個協調跟整合你認為你有辦法在三個月內做這件事情還是你覺得我們需要一起跟行政院院長做討論"},{"start":490.375,"end":508.232,"text":"報告委員你是針對CCPI給我們的建議我認為CCPI給我們的建議我們就看一看參考而已我們有自己的NDC的路徑聽到現在我覺得你對於他的再生能源你是願意採納的其他的你認為其實他的評比方法有失公允"},{"start":509.232,"end":522.679,"text":"有些他是我必須說就是有時候做事情的人跟倡議的人這是不一樣的層次那我會參考他我們哪裡做得不夠會去看他但是他的是不是都對的有待討論好 下一張"},{"start":524.269,"end":542.423,"text":"上個禮拜立法院有三讀通過嘛關於這個光電板環評地質法還有環評法觀光條例等等的那當然我們會這樣做是因為B案爆發的速度趕不上環境部修訂執法的速度啦那針對比如說山坡地"},{"start":543.443,"end":567.315,"text":"之前覺得太寬鬆或者是以前比較模糊地帶的水面型光電以及這個地質敏感區國家風景區等等一併納入環評的範圍所以我想先請教部長你對於整體修法的看法簡短說就可以了我是認可說能夠加嚴但是我比較遺憾的是說這個數字並沒有經過科學的討論或是公眾的參與決定這個多少MW要環評"},{"start":568.752,"end":584.814,"text":"好 那第二個問題 下一張第二個問題當然也是會有人民會有點擔心行政院跟環境部會不會對這次立法院的修法提出複議因為你剛有講你剛有講一些理由所以你覺得你會不會對這次的修法提出複議"},{"start":586.108,"end":607.487,"text":"這個部分我還要尊重行政院的最後的決定但是我覺得很可惜的是說因為黃國昌委員提那個案子的時候在大院質詢我的時候他覺得那個量可以來討論可是我們的所有的執法在規劃的空間的時候原來那個都在執法訂的那個執法其實可以有公聽的機會各界都可以來參與現在只有一方的能夠決定就決定了所以沒有公眾的參與"},{"start":607.847,"end":626.622,"text":"我剛剛大概有跟你講了一下因為這個執法從你們說要修一直到修修修修修拖了其實蠻久的然後你們沒有給出一個明確的時間那現在有一些人可能民團他也是出來講話他會怕說這個環評會塞車所以我也想在這邊幫他們問我想要在這邊幫他們問我想問你過去一年大概有幾個廣點的環評案你們有審你現在手上有數據嗎"},{"start":634.708,"end":658.087,"text":"光天有退回去幾個 但是也跟委員報告你們大概一年省幾個 這個是我們想知道的數據有些一定的量 因為之前是只有針對山坡地我們去年今年1月修改的那那個之前是適用於別的主管 目的地事業機關的規定例如說農業部還有這個水保署等等的相關的一個規定所以他都有他的一個規定 不是不見得每一個都要送到環評"},{"start":659.048,"end":670.863,"text":"他不是說沒有環評我的意思是說你的量能因為有些人會怕你們的量能不足對於未來的環評量能不足所以想知道你過去大概一年是幾個案子未來會不會"},{"start":672.421,"end":694.53,"text":"目前只有三個啦但是未來如果按照委員這樣的話我們也擔心我們的同仁會爆糧因為三個大家對比看一些光電閉暗的新聞當然會覺得你一年才還平三個似乎也是顯得比較少嘛所以當然我們這邊是積極要幫你爭取喔我們是希望你未來就增加你的量能增加你的人手增加你的預算我們也希望你好好去做還平嘛"},{"start":695.33,"end":710.711,"text":"另外在政黨協商的時候次長曾經有說到說這個地質敏感脆弱區等等名詞沒有明確的定義這邊我也想請部長來說明一下針對次長的這個疑慮你覺得有沒有辦法利用韓式來做一個解決"},{"start":713.699,"end":721.902,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個地質敏感地區最後在立法院三讀的再修正的動議裡面其實已經有做一個比較明確的一個定義了因為本來是比較不明確那之後後來通過的這個法案裡面他其實是有很明確的依照地質法的規定是只有限定在地質遺跡地質敏感區跟山崩地滑的地質敏感區"},{"start":736.946,"end":751.587,"text":"所以這個現在在執行上就比較沒有問題因為我看到其他的部門農業部海委會他們也一樣也都可以針對地質敏感區有一些定義部長我看你咳嗽所以最後一個只要很簡短的回答我們就好了"},{"start":752.588,"end":781.408,"text":"這個母法呢因為技術問題所以我們那一天並沒有把這個國家公園列入可是接下來因為你們會依照三讀的結果來修執法可是執法你們原本裡面有這個國家公園的條款所以也有很多環團擔心法律真空的議題比如說你們在連帶修執法的時候會把國家公園相關的條款就誤刪了那變成三不管地帶可能會是個巨大的災難這點我也想請部長講一下有沒有可能會有這樣子的事情發生"},{"start":782.609,"end":802.746,"text":"不會啦 這個國家公園任何一個開發是嚴到不行的所以這個 他們想太多了啦這個實質上食物不是這個樣子的對 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Code的方式你可以去在裡面去看那比如說舉例來講比如說防空避難設施那我們就把它放在這裡面那所以舊版和新版裡面是調整了很多的內容更加的豐富因為日本式的感覚"},{"start":112.223,"end":118.847,"text":"再加上我們總統的簽名您是好意 覺得總統也很關心台灣的安全現在讓大家公開 覺得沒有你們的用心在這個過程 我想要向保護部長說我們在這幾次的災害當中 為北省"},{"start":138.877,"end":141.759,"text":"來拍拚來互補維詢 數人感動啊在這也拜託回去 讓我們的國軍兄弟說聲謝謝他們 由他們整好謝謝委員的關心 是 謝謝委員在你剛才本席跟你說的時候 你有說"},{"start":157.63,"end":161.432,"text":"納入大家的意見在本席的看法上早上跟你們說的時候你們就第二半印好了在這裡 你有覺得說在第七天 說實在的很細膩的很細膩的因為你們今天要印這份是希望我們的事大 又看得很清楚"},{"start":185.68,"end":196.287,"text":"那結果說實在,伯父部長太小智了是,我自己老花眼我都看不清楚對啊,不知道你們的用心我感覺說,我們既然要讓四大人來看清楚的時候像你說的,你自己又看不清楚我也覺得,本席在這裡覺得,我們印這份出來"},{"start":213.626,"end":215.828,"text":"一定要有那個效果我覺得這很好讓北省了解說我們如何安全要做什麼的時候應該大家都看得到來 部長"},{"start":235.592,"end":239.253,"text":"部長,在這裡,本市要跟你談到做這份的選擇的用意就是要讓大家更清楚、更安全嘛在本市所了解,二十月開始分差不多分到每年一月左右但是本市在中央的時候,會感覺會比早期因為我們要分到到位"},{"start":264.262,"end":264.903,"text":"因為他們是依依依依依依依依依依"},{"start":287.895,"end":290.097,"text":"到他過的時候本土的政府都有本農民利我們可以作為給他們本的時候比較到位啦所以沒錯本縣要告訴你們喔我們不是說他們出來而已覺得要有那個效果啦"},{"start":313.871,"end":318.176,"text":"因為大家的社區都會做談會我們也會問我們的市長、我們的部長、當地的管理長"},{"start":328.046,"end":328.927,"text":"說一說這不錯我們社區座談會的時候可以站出來讓當地的理事也好理事長也好跟我們這裡的市長來講這樣好不好來"},{"start":344.428,"end":347.352,"text":"感謝委員的關心我們發放給他更清楚內政部是有邀請地方政府來開會他們說如果要補償更清楚我們會加一些手續費所以基本上地方政府跟發放的手續費我們是一分兩元"},{"start":362.092,"end":364.294,"text":"所以我們會按照這個方式,但是如果裡面有四角柴的地方,我們會按照這個委員的指導,我們再來改善然後我們20歲開始搬,20歲的高雄坡還沒運好啦,他高雄坡11個地方運好"},{"start":380.626,"end":384.628,"text":"五千分對啦 第一次的一次啦 我說的是說第一次第一次的五千分 那次我們十月開始分嘛本來的時候你會覺得說 有人覺得不錯 但是我們再來贏我們再來追加第二億一百千在台北的時候 我就是說"},{"start":402.878,"end":405.16,"text":"我們能夠改善就好了不是本地人如果農民利這裡是大人的會下去看現在農民利越做越大本就要讓大人看得清楚所以我們會變成硬大本的"},{"start":418.893,"end":421.856,"text":"對啦 我也覺得說我們會跟國防部說 會不會硬比較大粒 比較大份 才不會大家都流汗但是我們自己也要做啦 也不能硬得太大份啊我們也不能亂開啊 在這裡 部長本身要說"},{"start":439.611,"end":444.335,"text":"在這個消防的APP裡面本身有去看應該所有的動民都有看到中興大陸的立法院裡面裡面可以融入2284個"},{"start":460.219,"end":462.941,"text":"你不知道我們的中心大樓,樓梯這麼小跟我們的電梯,如果房災的時候,不能坐電梯嘛要早早早的時候,我們的樓梯這麼大"},{"start":477.79,"end":479.371,"text":"我們真的能夠融入2284個嗎報告委員 所以為什麼我們希望大家可以看這個APP在中興大樓以外 我們對面好好"},{"start":493.541,"end":509.613,"text":"我們有附近還有四個地方可以我們的消防署最好的地方就是說你所在地的附近五個地方都可以去不是只有一個地方那可能也會造成像那個委員所說的是不是會有擁擠這樣狀況所以我們才是一直強調說這些防空避難都需要做演習讓大家知道怎麼過去然後不要造成其他的"},{"start":518.579,"end":521.463,"text":"我們公家儀館要恩賜 東西清清的他都會照顧起來我最高興的就是大樓私人的 大家訂到一大堆這又不是我奉命去欠的"},{"start":536.28,"end":541.825,"text":"這是監察院今年七月七月的大樓你還等到這樣?跟你們說要去賣、要去帶賣我們東西賣不夠了,又有人來賣沒錯所以我問問說,這是安全的問題我們要去克服蘇聯的大樓"},{"start":560.286,"end":568.913,"text":"要處理 再來謝謝 不好意思 再給我一點點時間在這裏面 你有說到說我們要準備那個不是 那個收容的你怎麼知道 因為時間不夠我沒辦法來講很多在那個選修隊的裏面我們有說教員"},{"start":588.735,"end":590.036,"text":"準備防災的東西現在就是說 部長你們看看你們這個必然背包裡面在選修隊自己採購的裡面所有的 我們也要改進"},{"start":608.598,"end":617.622,"text":"我們現在還在做這個 自己叫選手隊來到三天來做的時候來賓不可以去做這個 不可以申請是不是保證你們未來要來這個避難背包的訴求要來納入不像那時候說的 叫佩穗準備跟人家很辛苦 要叫人準備 還不可以申請 不可以做"},{"start":638.131,"end":644.533,"text":"這樣是不是沒什麼對嗎是不是部長你要去研議一下我來研議好不好因為我也希望地方政府可以倒三天因為選秀隊大部分是以地方政府的地位來成立的我知道 搞不好是說部長不管是最好可以自己準備好因為他要放什麼東西比較重要對啦"},{"start":658.797,"end":661.359,"text":"我們要放什麼東西的時候 我的意思就是說最不基本的要放的東西 我們就叫白色要準備啊跟我們社區要準備沒辦法 申請錢 這也很奇怪好不好 去研議一下 因為我還有幾個條問題的時候 我要用書面"},{"start":683.353,"end":685.174,"text":"謝謝大家跟大家繼續拍拚我們不是要戰爭我們是要讓中華民國的台灣更好因為澎湃災害也很多所以大家互相加油互相幫忙謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781034e7e6888efabd4340652d1d50d7223a569bc65e346f37e4c4a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:56:43 - 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支持日本你認為日本議論怎麼看待這個事件你怎麼樣的一個看待"},{"start":73.612,"end":89.339,"text":"我看到的是日本語論對於高市的說法的支持度是增加的我講日本的語論我看到的數字是已經增加到80%以上具體回答說日本國民的反應"},{"start":91.753,"end":113.05,"text":"那你覺得賴總統吃日本的水產他這個態度是表達支持日本那你的看法呢中華民國台灣的國家利益有很重要一點是台海地區的和平穩定安全"},{"start":115.134,"end":144.643,"text":"中華民國台灣的一個很重要的國家利益其實這不是現在才開始我相信是從你針對回答我的問題對那我現在就是要回答委員的問題就是說跟日本保持友好這是我們1949年來一直就是這樣歷任總統我們跟日本都是是要維持友好的國家利益所以就像任何動作來維持跟日本的那個友好關係我想這都是必要的"},{"start":145.023,"end":169.015,"text":"我想我們兩個都要面向我們跟對岸一樣的態度友好的一些態度跟日本一樣友好的態度本來就應該要有這種態度嘛那日本外省 這個外務省有沒有經由任何管道表示感謝賴總統吃日本的水產台灣媒體報導回台灣這些不管是在這個"},{"start":172.096,"end":188.589,"text":"電車 公車 在日本的電車公車包含街頭曝光經由台灣媒體報導回台灣這些照片是我國刊登的嗎還是總統府出現 以及外交部出現 有沒有"},{"start":190.869,"end":202.238,"text":"再跟委員報告一次就是說外務省是否有表達我想這一點我並不清楚我現在就回答你了這個感覺上"},{"start":205.165,"end":221.494,"text":"好像出口變內銷的一個廣告那日本並沒有那麼熱烈啊是國內大內宣嘛大內宣總統吃日本水產的這樣的一個廣告嘛"},{"start":222.134,"end":234.787,"text":"所以我們講一個日本包含輿論媒體和政府對依賴總統是日本的水產的這件事情的反應也沒有那麼強烈嘛所以在有支持的聲音"},{"start":236.468,"end":260.814,"text":"主要還是中立表述其外交向生顯然賴政府這種這波操作在台灣內部的這個宣導效果比在日本更大那另外就是本席從賴總統的表演和政府的反應看來我們似乎很高興日本將台灣納入他的集體自衛權的範圍那自衛權包含個別和集體"},{"start":265.896,"end":266.68,"text":"雖然在聯合國憲章"},{"start":268.925,"end":295.67,"text":"第51條附議所有國家自然權利但是大多數國家行使集體自衛權還是要透過軍事同盟條約來確立義務關係行使條件和範圍請問一下次長既然高市首相表達台灣就是日本集體自衛權的行使範圍"},{"start":296.75,"end":310.922,"text":"那我國政府也樂見於此那外交部是否有意藉此機會向日本尋求軍事同盟簽訂同盟條約那駐日單位有沒有這個運作"},{"start":312.603,"end":328.861,"text":"你回答報告員 降低衝突仍然是最重要的最近有一位中國記者在聯合國詢問了聯合國發言人Stefan他的一個回應其實他只要重提2758號重提那樣的意見"},{"start":329.562,"end":353.176,"text":"他聯合國的回答也是說降低衝突是聯合國最重要的一個目的所以我想我們跟不管跟日本跟歐洲其實我這次去歐洲大家的反應就是要降低衝突所以剛才委員特別提到吃日本料理那我們台灣人百分之百喜歡吃日本料理既然日本沒有反應那我們就把它視為正常其實我們不必誇張"},{"start":354.025,"end":376.346,"text":"那目前台灣並沒有尋求跟日本簽訂正式的軍事同盟這樣的一個做法因為簽訂這樣的並不會有幫忙你們既然都熱見移植對高市這個首相的這樣的一個態勢跟態度我們是不是剛好藉此機會來尋求這個所謂的軍事同盟啊"},{"start":377.227,"end":384.258,"text":"或是簽訂同盟條約啊是不是那對於我們台灣國土多一份保障嘛"},{"start":385.437,"end":400.326,"text":"報告委員 我剛才其實有回答過尋求簽訂正式軍事同盟並不一定是保障安全最好的方法烏克蘭就是最好的例子它有四國 目前世界上最強大的四國美國 俄國既然我們都已經表達友好關係我想我們藉此機會跟日本來談這一些軍事同盟條約或是這些盟友條約嘛所以進一步對我們台海 台灣的保障嘛"},{"start":414.534,"end":435.139,"text":"所以這個就是你要回答就是對於國內既然我們樂見於此那是不是我們就可以藉此機會來尋求這樣的一個同盟條約嘛這是我的本席的建議好不好謝謝委員我們可以做這樣的那更進一步齁集體自衛權是涉及到是國家"},{"start":436.299,"end":452.218,"text":"但是日本首相在法理上是不承認我國的國家地位那外交部是否屆時機會在日本的法理上承認中華民國的國家地位有在進行這樣的一個想法嗎"},{"start":454.524,"end":468.037,"text":"報告委員長期而言尋求中華民國正常的國家地位廣泛為世界各國承認這絕對是外交部非常高的目標那以現在中國習近平主政下的中國我們現在反而是尋求中華民國的穩定安全和平民意位得以捍衛這是最重要的一個事情"},{"start":479.048,"end":506.061,"text":"當然很多目標是必須要時間的所以長期而言甚至中長期而言尋求我們的國家中華民國正常的國家地位被世界全面承認這絕對是我們全力以赴一定遵照委員的指示去做因為你們執政太久了但是進度如何我們大家國內都看得到所以你們要檢討跟努力另外就是以我們縱觀來看"},{"start":507.662,"end":529.803,"text":"我們以地緣政治和歷史的角度你認為中國大陸政府對於日本高市首相關於台灣有事構成日本存亡危機事態的說法反應是否過於激烈因為本席問題特別提到地緣政治和歷史角度主要是因為"},{"start":530.664,"end":557.878,"text":"整件事情之所以欣然踏脖那重點其實不是日本支持台灣而是高市首相的言論等同以直接表明日本將不受日本和平憲法的約束而是日本作為二戰的發起國及戰敗國這番言論牽動到這整個東南亞和平格局的改變"},{"start":558.718,"end":581.104,"text":"所以這個就是我們今天討論的重點我們以地緣政治和歷史的角度日本應該要有所言論上要有所保守不要刺激到兩岸之間跟我們台灣的台海的緊張的關係次長你回答這個問題董事長"},{"start":584.318,"end":597.103,"text":"我作為中華民國的外交部次長 我不宜去評論日本首相的一個言論只要沒有傷害到中華民國的外交關係"},{"start":598.703,"end":614.909,"text":"那我這次去再強調一遍就是說我這次去都是所謂的理念相應國家都是支持自由民主的那基本上我在歐洲得到的反應確實中國的反應過於激烈中國在於日本所說的所以你現在已經"},{"start":615.749,"end":634.709,"text":"承認日本的言論 高市的言論過於激烈嘛這是一個重點嘛我國內知道這樣的一個言論這樣的一個言論對我們國內的台海或是國內的情勢絕對不利的 好 以上好 謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"165751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f7810313e2f745fed9ec0c0652d1d50d7223a572a482d9327719e9608b7010f5f8dc8a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:34:07 - 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有請國安局張副局長副局長請你回應之後很忙喔副局長好 我先回答一下陳永康委員剛才所提到的FOIPFOIP是安倍首相在2016年的時候所提出來的地緣政治戰略的一個概念剛剛好像兩位都沒有回答"},{"start":30.113,"end":52.48,"text":"OK 好 我們回到今天的這個主題喔剛剛的報告呢對於這個日本借這個制定和平安全法制跟修改安保三文件持續提升這個這個嚇阻跟這個應處能力的整個時間序跟這個修正的過程呢是講得非常的這個清楚我們大約再來回顧一下2015年的時候呢這個"},{"start":57.008,"end":71.807,"text":"安倍首相他的內閣就提出了這個平和安全法制然後引進了純利危機事態的這個概念容許日本在極端情況之下行使集體的自衛權"},{"start":73.749,"end":81.193,"text":"2022年的時候安保三文件修訂了首次把台海和平寫進日本最高層級的戰略2023年到2025年一直到現在日本開始進行部署跟民防政策的調整這個部分可能後面我還會跟副局長來做一個討論"},{"start":92.319,"end":111.986,"text":"再來2025年10月高市內閣上台之後基於中國還有俄國跟北韓的軍事的壓力所以宣誓要強化防衛跟啟動安保三文件的改定而且這三文件的改定原先預定是在2027年完成它現在要提早的2026年就要來完成了"},{"start":113.146,"end":121.97,"text":"我們現在回到就是說剛剛在報告裡面一直有提到所謂台灣有事這件事情高市在11月7號的時候接受在野黨委員的答詢的時候有提到台灣有事的情境"},{"start":128.872,"end":157.607,"text":"那剛剛我有看到報告這是外交部所提到的他就說現在就是因為提到是個案的問題台灣有事就提到個案的問題其實我剛剛還蠻讚同陳永康委員所提到的如果用台海有事的話可能比較不會觸動中國的這個敏感的這個神經因為他特別提到這個個案所以中國整個人就跳起來了不過我們來看這個這個高市首相他提到的其實他並沒有"},{"start":158.547,"end":166.132,"text":"跳脫這個平和安全法治的這個所謂的這個存立危機事態的這個概念他其實就是說如果說因為這個台海發生了這個戰爭或者是說遭受到中國的武力的威脅然後呢進而構成日本的存亡危機事態日本是可以行使集體自衛權"},{"start":184.122,"end":191.746,"text":"是剛才我們所提到的2015年的時候其實就已經提出了這個概念所以他其實他整個言論其實並沒有脫離這個概念所以他講的這些的話其實做過民調日本的媒體曾經做過這個民調"},{"start":199.55,"end":220.456,"text":"高市的內閣現在支持他的這個有高達72%而且56%的受訪者對高市內閣對中國的態度是表示肯定的那當然中國是非常的跳腳甚至呢提出了斬首說那現在呢他利用這個透過旅遊啊輿論跟這個經貿等等都對日本提出了這個"},{"start":221.596,"end":226.717,"text":"強烈的這個抗議好那再來的話就是我想請問就是國安局像除了剛剛我們所提到的這個日本要強化這個防衛然後呢要提早推動這個安保三文件的這個所謂的他的這個修訂那另外我們還有特別留意就是說今年三月份日本政府呢他首度公佈一項計劃他說如果台海局勢發生衝突的時候呢"},{"start":251.104,"end":279.543,"text":"日本政府將動員包含了自衛隊海上保安廳船隻還有民間渡輪跟飛機在6天之內要撤離12萬沖繩仙島群島的居民跟觀光客前往九州及山口縣等地安置而且這個計畫預計會在明年的4月份來實施演練那再來日本政府他還會進一步"},{"start":281.664,"end":299.814,"text":"研議有關高齡長者住院病患的支援措施預計2026年制定基本的這個基本的這個要領等等那好那相較於日本的這麼的憂心我們如何看待這件事情他們好像連這個部分"},{"start":301.314,"end":327.964,"text":"對於我們不要說台灣有事好了對台海的這危機他們有做了這些的動作那我們國安局如何在評估就是說日本對於這個台海危機是不是非常的有心因為他們已經有了這些的部署的動作了是跟委員報告首先委員提到第一點就日本今年3月發布了這個"},{"start":329.793,"end":333.481,"text":"民防避難計畫就我們了解這是日本在"},{"start":335.427,"end":360.016,"text":"國家安全保障戰略裡面有明定的他明定就應該盡快制定沖繩群島跟仙島諸島那他的一個居民的避難計畫所以針對我想針對日本政府針對他國內的安全需要去明定這些計畫那這個我們表示尊重我們不在本局可能不合適去公開臆測日本政府的一個立場"},{"start":360.876,"end":374.541,"text":"那另外一個就是高市第二個問題委員提到就是說高市內閣上台以後呢多次強調要修改修訂這安保三文件那我們看到"},{"start":376.141,"end":405.276,"text":"高市内阁其实有强调是基于一些区域安全形势的变化包含中共包含俄国包含北韩的威侠加剧他们希望透过修改这些安保文件来提升他们防卫的能量我想这个防卫能量是基于在跟美国充分的协作还有跟美盟在印太美盟之间的加防协作来共同维护区域的安全我想是朝着这方面在做进行"},{"start":405.997,"end":406.018,"text":"那"},{"start":407.202,"end":435.069,"text":"至於委員第三個問題就是這次中日風波會不會造成灰色地帶的衝突加劇目前我們看到中共的反應目前是以幾個面向第一個就是外交面向包括透過外交部 國台辦 國防部等等陸續的發表東核言論以外主要還是透過經濟脅迫包括剛剛提到的"},{"start":437.474,"end":461.205,"text":"終止已經恢復日水產品的進口還有發布這個旅遊跟求學赴日旅遊求學的警示等等這些動作那救揮帶軍師的部分我們看到目前沒有明顯的一個增強的趨勢大概都還是在例行性的一個範圍裡面包括最近有所謂開設在"},{"start":464.386,"end":477.744,"text":"在那個江蘇北部開設兩個作戰管制區就是射擊管制區其實那是一個例行性的一個射擊的一個訓練並沒有特別的現象發生那"},{"start":479.787,"end":499.233,"text":"近期也在渤海那個地方大連西南開設一個禁航區那個禁航區事實上也是一個例行常態開設大概兩個禮拜會開設一次大巴是做武器租源的測試所以目前我們看來到目前為止沒有看到這些軍事也好或輝帶的"},{"start":500.653,"end":526.015,"text":"這些微破的一個具體的升級的趨勢但我們也不排除後續會有一些變化所以本局會持續的關注這些情勢的發展副局長跳得很快我本來先問第一題第二第三題結果你就自己把一二三題給回答了我本來想說第一題可以聽得更多可是國安局居然就說這個部分你們不便來做這個評論可是我們今天有看到一個報導"},{"start":527.176,"end":554.205,"text":"日本甚至要計劃在距離台灣最近的漁納國島要來設置飛彈部隊我想這種種的一切其實就像我剛才所提到的日本對於台海的衝突其實是未來可能會發生衝突這件事情應該是抱持著非常憂心的一個從它種種的部署我們可以看出一些他們有憂心的部分"},{"start":554.585,"end":569.658,"text":"那當然台海的這個核穩是我在想是應該是印太地區大家所期待的當然取決於這個中國的這個態度台灣人本身也是希望說台海能夠核穩能夠維護共同來維護我們區域的這個安全"},{"start":573.661,"end":578.025,"text":"剛剛副局長有提到到目前為止中日雖然發生了外交的風波可是還沒有跡象看到說有其他所謂軍事灰色地帶的衝突有震溫的現象看起來中國到目前為止可能是用經濟、用旅遊等等來做制裁"},{"start":596.759,"end":618.003,"text":"到目前為止都還沒有看到灰色地帶的衝突發生不過這個部分的話台灣基於第一島鏈的一個很重要的一議員來講的話我在想這部分也是我們中日的外交風波應該也是台灣要特別留意的一個地方謝謝國安局 謝謝副局長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103f4e2829381affebb485b48840d78e4d869bc65e346f37e4c7bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:53:39 - 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家長還有校長 還有主任相關的法律資源 社福資源 心福資源都可以完整的呈現在這個第三方專責機構裡頭以上 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培芸委員"},{"start":511.345,"end":520.642,"text":"好 接下来我再来介绍我们现在到场的新竹县教育产业工会无难宴理事长欢迎您 谢谢好 接下来我想"}]}},{"id":"165752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f7810302e492bd2c8cce84408e1b0d34147d1472a482d9327719e90065ea35054ffef05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:36:39 - 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我問了一整年都已經到年底了兒少的氣候調適措施還在盤點嗎"},{"start":251.861,"end":277.303,"text":"謝謝委員 因為他當天談的是那個兒童的我的遊戲場 那時候我在民間2016年就一直在琢磨這因為在美國ASTM他們在2011年就已經有一些標準在弄那台灣一直跟不上可是我的意思說 那你們在跟部會還在盤點嗎團體跟民眾會不會覺得環境部對這一題完全狀況外好像是第一次聽到這個題目"},{"start":279.004,"end":302.677,"text":"部長你要不要說明一下跟委員說明其實我們已經在11月跟部會已經把就是高溫尤其是在健康議題那需要採取中程跟短期的措施先列出來那現在最主要的問題是在於說必須要有優先順序那所以我們署長這個大概不是只有健康權而已為什麼我今天這樣提"},{"start":303.317,"end":325.845,"text":"的確熱浪來潮的時候如果因為氣候對老人跟兒童就嬰兒是嚴重比較影響可是如果社福議題的話可能會牽扯到身障和安置機構弱勢家庭也就是貧窮家庭跟無家者這個都是在我在質詢的時候都有提過的而且如果參照兒童權利公約為基礎的話"},{"start":327.709,"end":351.049,"text":"從社福到兒少族群的一些設定那一路我講到歐盟的做法都講了快一年了部長我想你很了解兒權公約跟26號意見書他在講的兒少的氣候權這一塊那我也想問說司署長都很熟嗎對兒權公約我說你們部內上次替官員辦兒權公約的賠利課程是什麼時候啊"},{"start":355.812,"end":377.396,"text":"因為各部會事上都要上課公務體系的人都要上課所有只要牽扯到有跟兒少有關係氣候權也是跟兒少有關係不知道有沒有上課我們有辦每年都會辦理然後是跟所有的人權都一起那包含主管嗎否則制定政策相關規劃的還是主管們"},{"start":378.775,"end":404.411,"text":"所以這是不是可以再麻煩能夠跟上謝謝委員的建議這個我們會來做事實上我們對於這個本來我們今年想要說年底有一個氣候變遷希望有一個兒少的這種氣候變遷大會來辦但是因為這個我們遇到災害很多啦所以就一直我知道你們這陣子大家也很忙可是我就講了一年兒少的這些相關議題是可以放進去而且尤其是我關心的社福所以"},{"start":405.672,"end":427.608,"text":"COPS30就是30已經落幕了德國看守協會剛有報告指出台灣成績非常差部長回應是我國仍然有進步的空間我相信環境部一定會從各方面去做檢討也會說明這個報告中指數本身的限制我想等下很多委員會問可是我比較關心的是接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":428.628,"end":447.107,"text":"現行的國家氣候變遷調適行動方案112年到115年那明年就要結束了那照現在核定本的話國家氣候調適投入了數千億元計劃內兒少跟社福族群幾乎完全沒被看見"},{"start":447.988,"end":469.285,"text":"只在延伸紙計畫內而且只用健康權的角度帶過文字只出現在第一頁我剛剛講不是只有健康權後面沒有細緻的討論實際執行方案也就是每年都會做的公財補助的無家者的寒冬送暖部長從整體的人權觀點來看兒少跟社福族群"},{"start":469.685,"end":486.71,"text":"他們本來在這個氣候變遷就會是一個弱勢如果你只有從健康權夠嗎只剩下物資發放嗎因為如果只有那個無家者的寒冬送暖那真的就只有物資發放他的生存權發展權跟參與權還有甚至遊戲場的休閒遊戲權"},{"start":491.012,"end":515.109,"text":"所以部長請你可不可以說明一下包委你這邊列的這個方案是衛福部那邊的那我們現在其實當然這個調試是環境部來主管的我們會其實我看到那個報告厚厚一本感覺錢很多但是他的整個計畫的目的跟國際上的調試以我的瞭解的確是跟國際上有落差所以我們其實真的我有跟我同仁在討論說如何把這個調試真的去"},{"start":515.649,"end":544.51,"text":"符合國際有沒有找一個好的一個做法能夠符合委員的期待來做但是目前這個所謂的兒少或是弱勢的部分的確我們我必須坦承說我們做的不多各個部會跨部會做得很不夠因為我覺得如果你說今天講衛福部國健所好了他們對健康可是重點是對於氣候的這一塊事實上還是掌握度比較高如果要對應說請衛福部去提出來一些東西他大概提不出來那甚至"},{"start":544.95,"end":555.917,"text":"今天我提的社福的安置機構甚至事實上是無家者甚至貧窮家庭他們越吹可能越熱越熱又要越吹的話事實上越貧窮這個課題之前都已經講過了所以"},{"start":560.32,"end":583.671,"text":"希望啦就是說部長這邊可能要先你出來你們自己對氣候的了解之後再去對應我們的衛福部所以我在民間的時候就一直講因為我剛剛講美國ASTM在2011年的時候就已經有對應的一些策略說那個遊戲場的高溫的一些對應策略那考量到今年夏天還有各種的天災你要救災優先"},{"start":584.551,"end":596.096,"text":"我沒有一直強求馬上要做可是現在看到是沒有上位的計畫的話各單位互踢皮球而是要跟社福族群的一些氣候調適包含遊戲場在內因為我們現在燙傷的比例越來越高所以美國為什麼他們在"},{"start":601.138,"end":623.887,"text":"STM的準則裡邊事實上加裝了一些要件可是台灣現在這邊遊戲場事實上是沒有跟上的所以如果你們只能一直在盤點的話我們就擔心新一期的行動方案一定要補這個結構性的缺口所以我要求環境部在新的方案當中是不是可以連結其他的部會用明確的章節把兒少跟社福族群"},{"start":624.347,"end":652.963,"text":"列為需要特殊對策的一個氣候脆弱族群重點是要有專款有清晰的分析行動計畫跟管考部長能不能做到委員這個其實我們有在討論這個事情包含了說我要說一個兒少的氣候變遷的會議就是把你說的要把它放進去那我也認同委員說是不是有一個專章來討論這個事情因為這個角度切法是不一樣的那我也覺得從未來從世代正義的角度委員你這樣的看法是對的我們可以來"},{"start":653.343,"end":673.831,"text":"他們說環境就是他們的生命所以應該也要讓他們來參與也要把他們列入在你的所以想問116年期的新一期的行動方案是否已經啟動擬定如果已經啟動擬定的話預計的一個啟動跟完成時程那你們什麼時候可以給我把這些我剛剛講的兒少跟社福納進去規劃好"},{"start":675.611,"end":694.709,"text":"包委員 這明年我們就會來開始做明年115年就要準備116年的新的計畫所以明年我們就會嘗試一些兒少的相關的一個討論然後把這個宗旨這個利害關係的人都把它找到我相信部長你的行動力非常強希望要記得兒少跟社福 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103abe190c7a3e7a793408e1b0d34147d1472a482d9327719e910110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:24:35 - 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就可行嗎就是說"},{"start":176.229,"end":203.515,"text":"其實這件事這個議題我在6月底有質詢過環境部但是那次您不在場是沈次長在場這是空污跟罹患失智症的關聯性所以今天我想要再跟部長再談一次在6月24號的記者會上有一屆一屆代表跟環團召開記者會他們引用的是國際醫學期刊叫Lancet叫士科博這個是大概排名前幾名的國際醫學期刊他們當中有指出空氣污染被確認為全球失智"},{"start":204.435,"end":223.067,"text":"的危險因子之一他們指出跟交通工具排放的廢棄有關的PM0.1的關聯性那沈司長當時也提到世界衛生組織在2021年的時候他的全球空氣品質指引他針對這個主要的空氣對人類健康影響部分他第一次提到了這個"},{"start":224.068,"end":237.946,"text":"就是超細 因為更細了 這PM0.1它會增加全身的發炎 呼吸道疾病還有心臟血管等等的風險所以我想要請問彭部長你認為國家環境計畫現在只把PM2.5放在KPI裡面這樣夠嗎"},{"start":240.311,"end":260.886,"text":"謝謝委員的建議這個當然是不夠啦但是這個PM0.1它是屬於一個新型態的那我前幾個月有遇到美國的EPA的專家也在討論這個問題那他們也在嘗試很多歐洲的國家在設那也跟委員報告我們明年會設三個站那我們先來量量那個到底我們北中南各設一個站"},{"start":261.346,"end":276.105,"text":"部長我瞭解你有開始要注意到你剛剛報告總共我算過你至少講了三次科學那我就跟你談科學PM2.5已經很小了可是PM2.5會進入它吸入以後會進入我們全身循環全身都會受到影響但是PM0.1是25倍小"},{"start":277.306,"end":291.242,"text":"那它是更細啊你知道我們的血液跟大腦有個屏障叫做血腦屏障就是說它會透過這個血腦屏障穿過去因為它太小了它會進到我們的大腦那大腦以後它又會碰到那個我們很重要的記憶跟認知的部分叫海馬回"},{"start":292.123,"end":308.953,"text":"那這個還蠻會破壞它的構造跟它的功能所以它會造成這個退化性的神經症還有很重要就是失智症那我要談的科學是這樣子這個台灣婦產科醫學秘書長他也引用了這個環境流行病學查治2025年最新發表論文的"},{"start":311.254,"end":337.602,"text":"蘇格蘭在1936年出生 572位長者他為研究對象 他發現七八十歲罹患失智症可以溯及母體胎兒的時候跟他這個幼兒期的空氣污染的這個因素很重要當然對於他們往後一生他們曝露的這個量也是有關所以失智的風險是跟這個PM0.1是關聯 這個是有科學報告的所以在這個情況下 所以剛剛你也提到你有開始考慮要把"},{"start":339.002,"end":363.537,"text":"PM0.1那到未來把關全國的空氣品質的一個指標是這樣嗎是這個也包圍因為我們在跟那個全球的包圍歐洲或是美國的專家在討論的時候他對於方法學0.1的方法學跟2.5是不一樣的所以我們現在明年會先設三個站北中南會先設一個站我們來真的來量看看然後來定出我們的國家的目標再出來逐步來定出來"},{"start":363.797,"end":384.234,"text":"那個10月底國家氣候變遷這個對策委員會有表示未來要加鹽加鹽交通燃油成分的標準來降低這個就是力狀污染物的這個問題那過去政府已經針對這個重型客車重型貨車還有輕型貨車大概已經就做了要求那請問部長你對於新車呢新車這個力狀污染物質的做法你有沒有打算也要納入裡面預計什麼時候會上路"},{"start":386.535,"end":414.089,"text":"其實這個部分還在研議當中我們希望明年可以來討論這個事情那您剛剛已經談到因為要監測嘛你要照片就要監測那你剛剛說是全國先三個三個當然是很不夠的不過就是說那你既然已經開始了那就是希望說能夠繼續因為這個科學證據是蠻多的部長還有一件事我今天一定要講上週五晚上台南烏樹林海軍的營區因為台南市環保局堆放大量的災後廢棄物"},{"start":415.129,"end":421.837,"text":"起火燃燒了我都不知道到現在為止到底這個火熄滅了沒有坦白說我一點都不意外但是我對行政機關毫無警示性這個感到生氣為什麼會生氣呢在10月7號的時候當地的農民跟前立委這個陳焦華有一起我們一起召開記者會"},{"start":431.568,"end":451.228,"text":"當天要求環境部跟台南市環保局都要出席可是台南市環保局缺席了可是農民對於廢棄物的堆置可能引起燃燒的憂慮我當時有要求環境部轉達台南市環保局後來第二次我在10月28號又召開了一次協調會也再度對環境部示警"},{"start":451.969,"end":478.226,"text":"但沒有人在意啊結果呢就出現了上禮拜五的這個火災啊起火燃燒啊我真的覺得這個有些官員對立委的協調會召開會那個聽聽就好就是根本不當一回事那這兩次會議我都清楚的告訴環境部那邊真的不適合堆放大量的易燃物的廢棄物不知道你知道為什麼嗎這是農民告訴我的你知道為什麼嗎他那個地方不適合放這個大量的易燃的廢棄物"},{"start":481.111,"end":496.895,"text":"因為是當地的居民告訴我的那些廢棄物木頭如果放得非常高 現在可能燒光了我不知道 很多次就燒光了跟我以前在談的那個防爆管器配件也是這樣它這個堆得很高 緊鄰圍牆所以外面的人很容易碰到它隨便丟一個菸蒂就燒起來了耶"},{"start":499.816,"end":525.876,"text":"所以這個政府機關我當時就告訴他們但他不聽也聽不進去那如果當地居民當然生氣啊當然會生氣啊所以我想請問部長一句話民間隨意焚燒廢棄物都會引起空污的話都會開罰喔那請問台南市環保局他這次這個臨時廢棄物的堆置場起火燃燒而且很嚴重聽說會燒很多天而且嚴重的空氣污染請問台南市環保局要不要對自己開罰"},{"start":526.776,"end":536.678,"text":"這件事要不要人負責 要不要人受到處罰我今天希望部長給我一個明確的答案這個開罰是他們要自己罰自己他會嗎 他會這樣做嗎 有人這樣做嗎他們應該會這樣做 他們應該 可是你是主管機關啊他們裁罰是屬於地方啦 那我們會要求他們說因為那天其實發生的時候我在國外我們的同仁有近視去處理 那我昨天"},{"start":552.262,"end":566.616,"text":"前兩天知道的情況下已經那個已經熄了但是還是有一些魚煙那也跟委員報告因為從7月開始喔那個台南的那個露宿倒塌了幾萬顆啦所以他們現在焚化爐的量還不夠對就是木頭嘛然後易燃物他們都會燒嘛"},{"start":567.697,"end":589.166,"text":"但是問題是我10月7號跟10月28號三個週然後也不過在一個年它就產生了已經告訴環境部 環境部聽耳不聞 聰耳不聞我們請他回去去督促台南市環保局我最在意的是他們不聽這麼清楚的這個點他們沒有不聽 根本不在意然後燃燒了所以你說他們會開罰自己嗎真的嗎 我要看開罰單"},{"start":590.166,"end":606.366,"text":"台南市環保局會開罰自己嗎這個按照我們過去的經歷是有這樣的例子那誰負責 誰會負責 他們要自己去那我要看到那個開罰單可以嗎這是市政府的一個層級啦環境部可以要得到 我叫你要啊 我不能看嗎我們明明就提出警示開了兩次 我花時間開記者會協調會結果就讓它發生了"},{"start":609.91,"end":625.726,"text":"不過我也跟委員報告 因為其實齁這個台南市的量能它焚化爐新的一個還在蓋 明年可以起來部長你齁 請不要說這麼多理由啦齁本來行政官員就是要做 我們就是要做監督嘛而且提醒了 還帶著當地居民提醒了結果事情還是讓它發生嘛這麼清楚的時間序嘛 他們大概都有記錄嘛因為他們到立法院來開會都有時間序嘛"},{"start":631.511,"end":642.556,"text":"所以我要看到您開發你剛剛講說藍綠白一樣不管顏色誰犯誰犯規誰都要處罰你剛剛講的很清楚別的事情那這件事我什麼時候可以看到開發單"},{"start":644.523,"end":663.015,"text":"已經都發生火災了 還沒有人要追究責任嗎是 包委員 那個如果有造成空氣汙染已經造成空氣汙染啦現在就是那個依空華來看還是要看他發生的原因啦他們調查發生的原因之後不是 原因就燒起來啦 他管的地區啊"},{"start":663.715,"end":687.065,"text":"也因為他們調查完之後 如果有...部長這樣不行 你現在給我胡說我也很尊重你剛剛對很多資料的掌握清楚但是這件事該做就要做我要看到開罰單可以嗎我們有權利看吧我們要知道政府做錯事要對人民負責民間做錯事要罰政府做錯事也要對人民負責也要有責任歸屬尤其我提醒了在10月提醒兩次因為我去看過 那實在太大了"},{"start":692.307,"end":710.534,"text":"那個大到整個台南倒掉的樹放阿固啊 你旁邊都沒說現在發生火災你就要推不行啦其實那個兩三個月我們要看開罰單 謝謝部長我們要看開罰單罰自己 自己做錯誰負責部長我要看到開罰單 可以嗎你答應我了嗎我來瞭解一下 看怎麼去處理我要看到開罰單 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"165753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103ade8dc7569ab5fc7485b48840d78e4d872a482d9327719e9b72548067dd757835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:44:45 - 09:53:34","影片長度":"00:08:49","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「解決教師荒—校事會議檢討及策進」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-24","start_time":"2025-11-24T09:44:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-24T09:53:34+08:00","duration":529,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":445.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.69971875000005,"end":493.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.79346875000005,"end":495.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.53159375,"end":495.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.90659375,"end":512.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.72721875,"end":516.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.2322187500001,"end":531.27284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":22.043,"text":"那我想今天主席特别召开这个会议无非就是希望能够解决现在青师之间的一个问题那无可否认的我们现在因为有非常多的关卡所以让我们很多的老师在面临这个士气还有要认为说这个校师会议里面对于他们很多的这个士气的一个打击受到一个非常大的影响"},{"start":22.563,"end":42.759,"text":"那我想我个人今天站在这个地方不是只有一个立法委员我本身是26年来从事狮子培育的教育工作者很多的学生都是第一线站上去当老师或者是校长但同样的我也是两个孩子的母亲一路陪孩子的成长过程里面我也看到孩子的同学"},{"start":43.459,"end":72.072,"text":"其实也受到老师一些真的是让他心灵受伤的一些的一个待遇而这个过程当中家长也不晓得该怎么办那这个孩子更是不晓得该怎么办所以说呢介于这个家长跟老师之间我觉得这是一个非常难解的一个问题那我认为教育部今天所提出来这个校事会议我想请部长还有国教署长很清楚知道你们有心要解决可是呢我从我第九届立委到现在第十一届的立委"},{"start":72.692,"end":99.727,"text":"怎么还是在讨论这个问题很显然校园里面当中留不住老师也让家长一股气所以这个问题到底是透过制度的问题已经做了这么多的精进但是呢很显然真的是亲事问题有因此得到一些缓解吗显然是没有所以到底是制度的问题还是是人的问题我觉得今天我们应该透过这个机会大家好好的平心契合的来好好来思考一下"},{"start":100.367,"end":118.03,"text":"有关校师会议所造成老师的一些心理的负担特别是一些烂书的这个层层的问题还有造成很多时候教师荒也无非也是这样除了这个诱因不够之外受到学校里面太多太多事情以前我们说严师出高徒"},{"start":118.47,"end":136.524,"text":"现在呢严师面对高徒敢不敢去给他训练可能要看看这位高徒他到底有没有这个韧性或看看这个家长有没有办法让孩子能够信任老师所以太多过去我们所想的事情完全没有办法在现在的教育体制上面特别是媒体来做发言我刚刚"},{"start":136.924,"end":159.102,"text":"一路过来都是听到老师的声音可能等一下会有更多家长团体的一个声音那我们就先来看看目前所教育部所成立的这个看出来这个法案当中我们先提出了几点当然教育部特别提到了一个所谓的匿名但是呢匿名或许是可以减少一些所谓滥诉的问题但是呢匿名不代表"},{"start":160.043,"end":179.395,"text":"如果说你匿名的话不代表这个事实不存在有很多人你可能从很多的网络或等等之间目前教育部是不受理但是这些可能也基于一些事实的一个因素那如果说即使是匿名对不起很多的家长被匿名的他还是担心他是不是还是会曝露出来"},{"start":179.855,"end":207.554,"text":"所以他这整个的配套有没有办法让这个检举的家长他得到充分的一个保障我觉得台湾真的是就像立法院也没有什么党团之间也没有什么所谓这个可以隐藏住的秘密我相信在学校也不会所以到底他这个配套有没有办法让这个即使匿名的有这么安全的可以讲出所有的事实我觉得这个部分是一定要提出更严谨的这样子的一个程序第二个我觉得还是有点"},{"start":208.234,"end":225.791,"text":"我真的觉得看了我就觉得非常的有点想可笑啊报告第二页建立亲师沟通的防务机制然后上面写着基于教育专业跟辅导巡堂观客亲师沟通行政务坛跟其他有效的方法部长啊这个叫做可以营造亲师沟通我50年前开车就是这样啊好不好"},{"start":227.893,"end":253.36,"text":"怎麼到現在你認為這就是有辦法達到親師溝通嗎我去尋堂一下幹嘛一下我就幫我打上公公嗎這個我現在二三頁真的要重新寫了這個部分裡面完全沒有辦法建立這樣子的一個親師溝通預防的機制你要不要親自示範一下這樣就有辦法解決嗎哪有這麼辦法容易有這辦法解決現在就不會大家坐在這個地方了所以這個部分裡面還有有關於增進增烈輔佐人"},{"start":253.88,"end":270.777,"text":"再先收证再确定是否受理这也很矛盾你这个辅佐人士告诉我们说有很多当事人因为不按一些法规所以你需要一个类似像家长或是校外或是律师的辅佐人那重点来了那你这个可以请辅佐人来以例调查"},{"start":271.357,"end":285.349,"text":"輔助人這樣部分你不是先蒐證再確定是否已經受理了嗎那你已經在蒐證就已經進去調查程序了不是嗎所以說這個東西有沒有代表受理這有很重要嗎這個程序到底怎麼樣我也看了也覺得一頭霧水啊"},{"start":286.79,"end":304.858,"text":"所以说已经有两个问题我也觉得很奇怪了然后再来呢你说你要界定清楚当初是因为教评会你们认为是官官相护师师相护所以才会造成需要一个校事会议那校事会议里面调查成员里面目前来说是校外校外部分当中"},{"start":305.658,"end":330.517,"text":"有没有接受一个专业的这个所谓的处理那你这个专业到什么样的一个程度那通常这个调查小组进到我们教室会议之后呢以过去的来说的话很多人就很难去反驳那当然就有非常多的老师他觉得他在被调查的时候他很多时候他没有收到去这个去化的这样子的调查的说明以至于他进入那个现场的时候他是非常忐忑不安的"},{"start":331.798,"end":352.512,"text":"所以呢具体的做法是你有没有办法一开始在受理的时候就分流很多时候不需要走程序你就可以在第一关就可以把它删掉这样去真正进入到这个程序的时候是要非常严重的那在这个运送的时候呢我们就要特别了解你这整个过程当中让进去的当事人有没有办法事先了解"},{"start":352.912,"end":369.658,"text":"他是基於什麼樣的理由然後呢我們這些所謂的調查小組是專業部分裡面有沒有辦法更可以廣納不同的方式的以在教師的教評來說我們是有三個校外人員可是進到我們教師教評會的時候因為大學老師比較會大鳴大發"},{"start":370.618,"end":397.009,"text":"所以呢很多时候他接受了这样的调查结果完之后他可以说出他的想法然后甚至这个调查规则只是一个参考我们还有很多必须意见的处理可是在中小学的校事会议可能基于文化的关系很多时候调查小组的决定可能就会在校事会你们就变成最后的决定那这个决定当中所谓的调查人员里面的专业还有没有纳入更多家长或是老师的意见"},{"start":397.509,"end":426.949,"text":"这个部分有没有办法在未来修法当中可以,所以你要进去,我具体的提出来的分流的程序一定要弄好,不需要做程序的就自动在第一关弄掉,当然如果要进入程序的时候,可不可以让当事人可以怀抱一个他知道今天要去受死的理由到底是什么,他可以得到什么样的协助,他可以怎么样让他自己的权益受到一个大的保障,如果这些东西让他符合的,我说实在的已经确证确凿了,老师真正要受到这个部分里面,"},{"start":427.589,"end":444.914,"text":"他或许在那个程序上情绪上或者是真的已经是让他觉得我没有什么好说了那也起码让人家得到死的安心吧所以我个人还是一句话站在这边语重心长从过去不要说是第九教到第十一届从当家长开始走当"},{"start":445.854,"end":469.208,"text":"学校老师的学生开老师学生当老师我是他的老师开始这个问题亲事问题2025年了怎么还在讨论这个问题所以教育部这样子的一个不管你是精进的像是会一点2.0或是3.0如果没有办法解决这样的问题的话到6.0我都觉得还是非常失望所以大家今天"},{"start":469.688,"end":494.708,"text":"希望在最后的时候不管是国教署长或是教育部长能够收集意见能够给我们一个彼此之间都还能够接受的否则呢说实在的我们外委员考不好可以当到第14届第5届你考不好那个时候呢你还是要坐在这地方再来解决亲事之间的问题那我们这时候到底在干嘛好不好我孩子都已经30岁的我怎么还在讨论亲事之间该怎么解决非常的感慨"},{"start":498.902,"end":516.665,"text":"好 谢谢柯之恩委员那接下来我们稍等一下我们有一位专家学者又到场了我们欢迎桃园市教育产业工会吴明玉理事长谢谢你好 那接下来我们有请陈培宇委员发言"},{"start":521.274,"end":530.572,"text":"好 謝謝主席我非常開心看到今天舉辦這個公聽會但是在今天公聽會關於這個命題之前我想要針對今天公聽會的命題提出一個更正"}]}},{"id":"165775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103d4ea19e7952d646346adc14d631adda669bc65e346f37e4c5298a28bd9a4829e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:24:38 - 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明年1月5日要發完整個時程明確的規定緊迫性在哪裡不可意見在哪裡這筆經費為什麼不能提早在年度預算編列呢"},{"start":267.894,"end":285.632,"text":"鮑威您指導非常好可是我要跟您報告這個事實上來講我們可以看到映射服事件是一個很嚴重的事件對全國都造成很大的震撼那我們之所以有急迫性為什麼要分這個區塊在這麼短的時間就是希望這本手冊盡早到我們全民的手上"},{"start":286.092,"end":288.454,"text":"所以剛才你說因為這件事情這本手冊很有用嘛對不對所以我看到這本手冊就變成宣傳手冊了不像是生存指南整個手冊你看啊這宣傳就是拼湊在一起的沒有明確的章節也沒有"},{"start":308.932,"end":314.795,"text":"SOP也沒有深入講解防災緊急應變都是講得很籠統更多偏扶在就是精神還有理念請教這樣子的內容實際上的指南意義在危機來臨的時候民眾翻開手冊真的知道怎麼做嗎報告員我跟您報告這個是這一頁最緊急的在哪裡"},{"start":334.861,"end":340.525,"text":"報告委員我要跟您報告這裡面手冊先是一個指引的大綱那所有的內容我們都用QR Code因為它的內容太大太廣所以少QR Code比如說我剛才舉例來講避難設施全國的避難設施非常的多那我不可能一列在這裡面好所以你說這樣子我們要一列在裡面內容設計跟得蠻荒謬的"},{"start":361.399,"end":373.968,"text":"緊急通報電話在夜內誰要去翻再來就是庇護的所查的方式就是設計就給誰看的還有誰在炸彈掉下來的時候還慢慢翻嗎沒有目錄啊整本沒有目錄更誇張的你說要下載下載呢我們還要緊急的怎麼去下載下載裡面還要找"},{"start":390.979,"end":393.401,"text":"地圖在哪裡不是下載就馬上看到了還要下載還要寫很多像我們長輩你叫他說下載他都不會了還要下載很困難還有沒有緊急看到的避難的地圖手冊裡面還有"},{"start":407.053,"end":408.954,"text":"請我們的民眾呢要寫下三個跟家人約定緊急會合的地點在手冊裡面寫還要想請問你你平常跟你的家人聯絡"},{"start":422.864,"end":439.321,"text":"都写在手册里面吗现在科技化了对不对所以呢所以这个就是应酬的嘛我们看到手册里面就是防灾用的不是消耗预算用的我们没有看到的效果但是你说的效果我们就是没有看到啊"},{"start":440.302,"end":444.443,"text":"平常就要準備所以這個為什麼說做一個平常的指引如果說沒有一個正確的概念如何在災變來臨的時候去做正確的防範另外我們所謂的不管緊急設施也好緊急聯絡也好都是一種方式為所做的任何的建議"},{"start":458.667,"end":467.631,"text":"我認為都可以作為我們日後參考但是這本手冊的利益就是希望全民安全全民能夠有準備才安全我想這是我們今天在急迫性上來講也是結合了全球的這種複合式災難發生必須要做的事情我想這是一個很好的一個全民的一個大家認識一個防災的概念方式安全在哪裡要貼在這裡安全貼在這裡安全貼在這裡你每天拿這一本出門"},{"start":486.798,"end":490.859,"text":"報告委員 這個就是平常要教育所以你說平常教育這一本手冊教育你們也說長輩沒辦法下載平常教育 但是誰拿這一本剛才我們委員說自大一點自大一點 拿一個包包很大的放下去 把它拿出來所以再說你們的多元版本還有離線的工具裡面你們說怕長輩不會上網"},{"start":516.465,"end":540.1,"text":"沒有比這本手冊更有用的東西嗎還有我們全國現在新住民還有外籍人士在台灣超過百萬人但是為什麼裡面只有印尼版沒有其他版本這兩百萬人的生命不重要嗎什麼時候上線還有我們在手冊裡面在看到的就是"},{"start":541.601,"end":557.89,"text":"兒少的防護第24頁裡面家長和孩子討論戰爭結果完全叫家長怎麼樣保護孩子都沒有只講的是戰爭時發生的怎麼樣逃跑也沒有"},{"start":558.43,"end":560.411,"text":"怎麼避難的 也沒有 怎麼備藥 結果整個章程裡面都是討論侵落 還有到底防疫交易怎麼樣 只有意識形態請問一下這段的內容的 水省的 審查人員有沒有消防或者醫療緊急的急救的 或者是資訊供電水電的專業來去審查"},{"start":586.9,"end":588.381,"text":"還有說官員你們就是走個形式就好不是不是不是如果有的話你們就是要把這些的名單誰的意見誰審的誰簽核的誰負責的內容給我們報告這個絕對不是"},{"start":602.386,"end":605.888,"text":"今天國安部單獨做出來的而是經過專家學者跨部會的大家長時間的討論做出來的但是我們沒有看到緊迫性還有持久性沒有達到我們真的想要的社會對我們指教我們也聽到了如果說有不足的地方我們會在未來如果大家的需求是這麼的強烈就跟委員所講的那麼強烈那我們希望下一個版本馬上就出來"},{"start":627.6,"end":632.881,"text":"因為這個的確是一個非常好的如果私商就是我們國防部這麼說在說因為時間有限我再強調我們支持防災備戰但是我們反對的是花錢卻用不上派不上用場還有沒有花錢花在刀口上這本花了六千多萬台灣全民安全指引內容就是"},{"start":656.943,"end":658.843,"text":"就是拼湊還有資訊殘缺還有混亂的就是還有混雜的一些什麼政治口號防空避難地點要民眾自己花自己看重點電話藏在裡面要自己寫集合地點"},{"start":676.908,"end":681.971,"text":"這樣到底是哪一年的做法 更離譜的是因為經費裡面還要動用第二一倍金 我們質疑就是拆帳就是沒有讓我們去查 這非常不合理所以我有幾點要求 政府要做提升全民防衛任性 但任性不是靠這本書而已而是人民在危難時刻"},{"start":704.042,"end":720.329,"text":"避難的時候能行動資訊要夠還有方向要明確所以現在這本我們沒有看到所以我們希望剛才我們的副部長說你們要重新再用所以我再要求兩個三個手冊裡面要"},{"start":724.865,"end":738.67,"text":"編列 預算 動資的審查制度 第一個第二個 手冊的存在必要性與修正的措施第三 未來所有全民防衛的交易的專業審核標準"},{"start":740.851,"end":745.855,"text":"於公開程序 人民需要的是可以救命的資訊而不是浪費六千萬的政治文宣請國防部一必在就是一週內向我們的國會還有我們的人民提出最負責最有效的手冊 可以嗎"},{"start":761.329,"end":777.577,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個手冊事實上它就是非常有用絕對沒有說浪費公帑也絕對會發在刀口上我希望大家能夠重視這個手冊就跟委員重視拿這本手冊再來發經驗委員也是重視所以才可以跟我們說經驗告訴我們真的我們看到真的是來源謝謝 希望你在一周內提出是 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"165770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781035f41b3968d156ab80652d1d50d7223a569bc65e346f37e4cec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:29:19 - 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次長請"},{"start":10.474,"end":34.802,"text":"市長好 大家都非常關心這個日本首相高市早苗的這個包含台灣有事說跟安保三文件的修正對區域安全可能產生的一個影響喔那我們現在觀察到的是呢中日衝突喔那想要問一下外交部的看法您覺得它會是一個短期化的一個衝突還是說它會演變成長期化的中日衝突"},{"start":38.786,"end":51.45,"text":"看怎麼定義衝突日本跟中國現在的國家利益不同這個是我們客觀看得出來但衝突不必然代表戰爭對 沒有 我沒有講戰爭我說的是衝突對 就是說有不同的對國家利益不同看法我想在國際關係是非常常見的尤其現在中國對區域產生一個非常具侵略性的各種動作比如說在我們的每年"},{"start":67.048,"end":70.253,"text":"去年派了接近4000架飛機對我們進行騷擾這也不是只有對我們對中國也是一樣再來是快速增加他們的國防能力你剛剛是講錯國家"},{"start":83.142,"end":108.744,"text":"對中國對整個區域的進行騷擾你剛剛講說對日本也是一樣對日本也是一樣沒錯啊對釣魚台中國也是進行很多的軍事騷擾到時候你回去可以重看一下剛剛因為我有聽到主席有講到說這個主持用法應該要精確一點那請您在回答的時候也特別注意一下好不好你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":109.484,"end":131.589,"text":"中國確實對日本進行軍事騷擾嗎對 您剛講的是中國對日本進行軍事騷擾但因為您剛回答的時候您講成了說對中國也進行了軍事騷擾是這樣子的好 請您繼續抱歉所以目前看到的是中國快速增加他的國防軍備也引起世界各國對這樣的一個情形有非常擔憂"},{"start":132.369,"end":150.311,"text":"是那個因為我剛剛問的是說這樣子目前中日的衝突我們評估他是會長期持續化還是說他是會短期之內那有多解決那想問您喔您剛剛的這個說法是比較偏向說會長期的產生這樣子的一個矛盾是嗎"},{"start":150.851,"end":157.375,"text":"以目前中國在習近平的主政之下確實我看不出這個衝突會有減低的一個趨勢那這個前首相石破茂他提到真正該討論的是避免台灣如何會沒有事就是說要避免台灣有事的情況發生"},{"start":170.123,"end":182.576,"text":"那我想問一下針對前首相時破帽的說法呢外交部除了認同高市早苗首相之外對前首相時破帽的說法外交部也是認同的嗎還是有不同的意見"},{"start":184.273,"end":211.705,"text":"我基本上我覺得石破茂現在已經不是首相了他可以表達他個人的意見他也是一個意見領袖嘛那我想要問一下因為在等於說在日本政壇裡面那有像高市早苗首相這樣子的說法那當然前首相他的說法是說認為應該要討論的是如何避免台灣有事針對這樣子的一個就是發言的取向跟他的整體的這個想法跟邏輯我想知道的是外交部是同時認同雙方"},{"start":213.266,"end":228.336,"text":"還是只認同高市早苗還是說有什麼樣的一個評論或是評估以目前我問更清楚一點就是說該不該要去討論的是如何避免台灣有事"},{"start":229.13,"end":257.609,"text":"如何避免台灣有事也不是要一切都順從中國的要求沒有人剛這樣講石破茂也沒有這樣講我問的是石破茂的言論所以你不能單就這句話我問的是石破茂的說法他說在日本來講除了這個高市早苗講的台灣有事日本有事之外要討論如何來避免台灣有事所以您的言下之意是認為說這是石破茂單方面的說法外交部並不認同 是嗎"},{"start":260.251,"end":273.377,"text":"我想石破茂講的是跟法律無關 我要講的是怎麼樣任何一個首相都有 我想高市早苗主要是要捍衛日本的安全那對一個國家領導人我想這是正常的"},{"start":274.763,"end":288.038,"text":"對 我知道你剛剛支持高市早苗的言論在前面很多的委員在質詢的時候都已經講了嘛對但他們沒有問到的是前首相石破茂的這個看法跟論點外交部是否認同我問的很簡單就是這個事情啊對於石破茂提到"},{"start":294.877,"end":320.41,"text":"就維護那個台海地區安全這點當然是這是對的那至於以什麼樣方法來做因為我們外交部不需要先去評論一個已經不是外交已經不是首相的一個說法我認為原則上精神上是對的那至於要用什麼樣方法來做如果今天前首相安倍晉三他有對台灣做出非常清楚的發言的話我不認為外交部這時候會告訴我說因為他是前首相所以就不予討論了"},{"start":323.852,"end":346.394,"text":"因為他仍然對在日本來說是有影響力的重要人物所以我只是想要詢問就是說呢當日本你不要講石破茂好了在日本裡面有一些人他認為除了高市早苗的說法之外也應該要討論如何避免台灣有事這樣子的說法外交部繞了這麼多圈圈所以是並不是這麼認同"},{"start":348.147,"end":358.459,"text":"報告委員對於台灣安全有說法的意見領袖會非常多我們外交部其實沒有必要對於每一個都做出回答的提問你這樣講我就清楚了就是不想要回應石破茂那再來我要講的是說我們也需要更多的盟友支持台灣"},{"start":368.229,"end":389.864,"text":"那前一次的質詢在林佳龍部長來的時候我才詢問過CPTPP的事情那當時就講到說在12月的時候其實11月現在就已經就已經開始了那當時這個我們林佳龍部長他也很有信心的提到我們有在跟這些國家他說有跟一個國家來做討論"},{"start":391.385,"end":418.466,"text":"那這個呢CPTPP的部長級的會議後的這個報告宣布了烏拉圭阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼符合奧克蘭原則並且先啟動了烏拉圭的入會程序那其他的三國也就是阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼會視情況於明年進行過程當中完全沒有提到台灣我想問一下外交部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":421.439,"end":429.605,"text":"我們確實是已經符合奧克蘭三原則這是事實對啊 不要提到我們的這次是在澳洲主辦嘛根本不給人報告外交的場合不是說符合什麼就一定會獲得什麼"},{"start":438.032,"end":443.538,"text":"就像我們中華民國我們中華民國符合主權獨立國家但也不是每一個國家都承認我們我們符合奧克蘭三原則我們確實遇到阻礙這個阻礙就是來自於中國所以這一次CPTPP我們認為沒有公正審查我國的申請案是因為你們認為在這一次的"},{"start":462.496,"end":476.929,"text":"CPTPP的討論當中也一樣受到了中國大陸他們的打壓所以在澳洲這一次的CPTPP的部長會議才沒有讓台灣能夠成立入會小組是這個意思嗎"},{"start":479.918,"end":490.45,"text":"確實我想這是我們可以很清楚的去理解到我們之所以沒辦法受到公平對待絕對是中國的這一次也是是嗎在澳洲在澳洲舉辦的這一次也是嗎應該是我請那個我們那個司長又回答一下"},{"start":499.96,"end":502.422,"text":"請問在會議當中有哪一些國家有幫我們提案說要把成立台灣入會小組放進這個討論議程裡面"},{"start":523.241,"end":539.286,"text":"跟委員報告這個是會員國之間他們內部的審查如果沒有在內部我們是不會了解情節所以我們不清楚有哪一些國家願意支持我們哪一些國家你認為是中共介入所以說跟著中共一起來反對我們是這樣嗎"},{"start":540.117,"end":564.664,"text":"沒有 我可以很清楚知道日本會支持我們英國會支持我們那他們有提出 你們有所了解說他們有在CPTPP的這個會議裡面提出要把台灣列入入會小組放進議程裡嗎我們沒有參與討論所以我們對內部他們如果討論那你們有向日本了解以及建議或者是希望拜託他們做這樣的請求而對方表達了同意嗎"},{"start":565.612,"end":569.505,"text":"我們確實有跟日本提出這樣的請求對方有表達同意嗎"},{"start":570.744,"end":597.17,"text":"日本有明確表達是會對我們繼續表達支持但是日本也是一票英國也是一票啊當然啊我是說他們在會議當中有提出要把台灣入會小組放進討論議程這件事情是日本有告訴台灣說他們有做這樣子的舉措還是只是說我們跟他提出建議的時候他們會說好我們會來幫忙就是兩件不同的事情一個是說態度上面的友好一個是實際上面"},{"start":598.73,"end":603.631,"text":"告訴我們我們已經在CPTPP的議程裡面提出建議要把台灣入會小組放入議程不是表決一票喔是放入議程喔您要聽清楚我的問題我知道在許多場合日本確實會替我們捍衛但我剛才提到說這個並不引然代表整個大會就會通過我沒有問通過的問題因為沒有通過這已經是事實了我詢問的是說您剛講的國家"},{"start":627.978,"end":644.237,"text":"他們到底有沒有如實的就像我們的請求在CPTPP的這個會議裡面不是說投票通過是說把台灣成立入會小組這件事情放入議程討論因為我時間不夠有關係是不是可以簡短回答就好"},{"start":644.877,"end":665.44,"text":"報告委員我認為應該是有因為我前陣子有去日本有帶一個船去日本我們有討論過一些就這邊救貨交換知事方給我們回答說他們會在各項場合各項場合有包含這個CPTPP他們給我回答是有嘛當然不在現場我沒辦法跟你講有是沒有但是他們跟我講是有"},{"start":666.181,"end":692.216,"text":"那我希望就是說呢關於CPTPP這件事情我們持續來努力一定會 謝謝委員既然 既然今天日本提出了包含高市早苗等提出了對台灣要有所支持那我們希望是能夠有實際的表現而這些表現我們不能只因為說他們是在內部會議所以我們就不知情那我們也應該要透過我們跟日方的管道了解是否確實有在會議當中協助我們來提案"},{"start":694.677,"end":695.379,"text":"而不是說他簡單跟我們這樣談話表達口頭上的支持我們希望能夠看到更實質的表現謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781035f0fde94e555f4d5408e1b0d34147d1469bc65e346f37e4cf2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:24:10 - 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先說回了40個小時再回到台灣而且在這段時間參加那麼多的會議除了COP30以外還跑去巴拉圭進行一趟非常成功的一個兩國之間相關的一些協議跟討論很多重要的事情"},{"start":37.068,"end":63.857,"text":"非常感謝部長的心腦我們也瞭解像今天在部長的報告裡面針對於這個非洲豬瘟的防疫工作所做的努力也看到有良好的成果不過我想還是有兩個部分再跟部長做請教一個就是處理化的這些政策完整規劃目前的進度跟未來的走向另外就是如果精進寬頻制度之下的具體策略"},{"start":65.037,"end":91.67,"text":"那有關於廚餘巨化政策完整的規劃的部分我們知道其實廚餘如何減量跟如何再利用就是未來一定會走的方向那在這一次的這個非洲豬瘟相關的應變作為裡面呢如何能夠讓這個源頭減量跟高質化的利用的具體目標跟配套的措施的確我們也看到很多"},{"start":93.031,"end":119.068,"text":"在我書面報告裡面有在講到目前的這個禁用期間各縣市的除了維持既有的廚餘的處理方式以外那必要的時候就變成需要焚化跟掩埋的方式來做輔助處理目前看起來好像是主要是從這個部分在做相關的因應那如果將來廚餘禁養政策變成是長期的方向的話呢"},{"start":119.568,"end":142.547,"text":"那如何能夠去把這個每天多出來495噸的這些廚餘能夠做有效的處置這個是未來大家非常關心的部分那不知道到目前為止剛剛部長提到說最近會再跟行政院各個部會來做相關的檢討那有沒有比較可以再說明的地方"},{"start":143.187,"end":157.617,"text":"報告委員因為我們也統計了各個縣市他對於這個的態度那也呈現了很不一樣的結果例如說有的縣市認為是全面禁用廚餘但是他的廚餘的怎麼去處理他沒有特別去關注"},{"start":158.237,"end":176.566,"text":"那有些縣市呢其實是希望有珍珠場共同珍珠場那有些縣市呢可以說是有條件的例如說可不可以讓他把這個生殖能的或是堆肥的部分能夠啟動之後再來花一年或一年半時間把它禁掉所以目前呢我們一個縣市一個縣市在溝通因為這些縣市都是地方政府"},{"start":177.086,"end":200.441,"text":"要來積極處理這個事情的但是我們中央也必須要有政策所以我們預計呢希望是這個禮拜能夠跨部會還有跟地方政府完全協商之後會正式提出一個政策出來是 記得上一次跟部長在我們這個委員會討論的時候如何把線性經濟轉變成為循環經濟這個是部長一直在提倡的觀念那也希望我們能夠往這個方向來執行"},{"start":201.782,"end":223.167,"text":"我們可以看一下其實日本他們這20年來真的非常用心的如何讓這個廚餘相關的這些政策能夠得到很好的改善尤其他們是希望能夠控制不管是非洲豬瘟或者是狂牛症帶來的這種影響川島教授他其實今年在聯合國農糧組織裡面"},{"start":224.767,"end":244.266,"text":"有報告了日本他們努力的方向從這個原來大量生產大量消費跟大量處置的單向社會裡面轉向我們所期待的循環型的社會那這部分他們為了要做這些事情制定了相當多的法令"},{"start":244.947,"end":266.82,"text":"法規包括建立循環型的社會基本法這是在2000年他們就已經制定好後來又陸續制定了廢棄物的處理跟公共清潔法還有食品資源的回收等等那從他們的法令規定裡面就直接要求第一步最重要的就是要做這個抑制食品的廢棄就是發生廢棄"},{"start":269.702,"end":296.34,"text":"那其次呢才去做相關的這個廚餘尤其是在生廚餘的部分呢在還沒有到進到餐桌之前要去讓他有機會變成飼料化或肥料化這個是他們在做的一個模式展現出減量再利用跟安全三軸並行的方案在執行目前日本有關於這個廚餘減量或者是再利用的部分"},{"start":296.9,"end":317.938,"text":"那這部分也剛好上個禮拜部長有提到我也參加了相關的這個行程跟農業部還有環境部的同仁一起去了解他們日本目前執行的狀況如何能夠讓這個大家共同的來努力把這個發生的意志就是減量的部分可以確定的來執行"},{"start":319.139,"end":338.938,"text":"他們在因應這個過程裡面就發明也發揮了他們的創意提出一個叫EcoFit這樣的環保飼料的名詞讓大家都能夠知道因為透過EcoFit就可以讓廚餘得到很好的一個再利用的方式"},{"start":339.578,"end":366.856,"text":"他們這個再利用同時可以減少在日本準備相關的飼料防小育的這些成本事實上就可以適度的降低所以未來在規劃的部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是針對於日本的這樣的做法可以提供給國人做參考或者是未來在制定政策的方向可以給大家一些更多的了解"},{"start":368.025,"end":395.946,"text":"對 謝謝委員的建議因為日本的這個概念非常好因為我們上禮拜我們有同仁也跟著委員去看去日本看了那基本上呢跟我之前收集到的資料也都一樣例如說家戶的廚餘或是小吃的廚餘因為裡面的很複雜就不要進到這個養豬的這個內容裡面那其他的部分如果是餐廳或是說一些比較好的這個事業處理造成的這個食品的廢棄物的話他就可以或許就可以照日本的這樣在走"},{"start":396.406,"end":424.66,"text":"所以目前日本我們跟農業部因為這個部分是農業部在主政我們跟農業部一起來配合來協助所以目前的確日本的廚餘的處理方法是我們的選項的重要參考指標之一其實上個禮拜我們去桃園考察桃園的生殖能中心也有相關那個非常好的一些技術可以把廚餘轉化成為飼料或者飼料營養液甚至是有機肥料包括對於一些土地土壤的改善"},{"start":425.06,"end":450.309,"text":"事實上都有幫助我們上次去看縱圖的時候其實是很期待往這個方向來做一個研議這個部分就麻煩部長持續的用心好 謝謝好 那再過來就是有關環評法跟環評制度總檢討這個部分我們環評上路已經三十年了可是只做了四次的小幅的修正那去年底委託這個環境法律人協會來辦理一個環評的總體檢"},{"start":454.79,"end":484.083,"text":"那到了今年呢我們看到這個檢討的報告這個檢討報告目前針對執法還有修法的具體策略不知道部長這邊有沒有掌握有 我們預計呢這個現在其實這兩個月都有找各個利害團體來進行一些討論 公聽那目前我們預計年底就會提出環境影響評估的制度的精進的措施就是今年會年底會提出一個措施我們希望如果要法令要修改的話明年可以來做這個事情"},{"start":484.543,"end":502.85,"text":"但是我也發現就是說大家對於環評想像的很不一樣有些人希望越嚴越好有些人希望越快越好那有些人希望說這個不要拖了時間太久造成整個經濟發展等於是這個出現了很大的分歧我們希望能夠透過這次的這個精進的檢討能夠來解決這個問題"},{"start":504.742,"end":522.957,"text":"是 其實部長講到一個重點就是大家認為環評是聯合遊戲那結果其實不應該是這個樣子我們希望有更好的思維模式那在這個報告裡面其實有提到目前事業主管機關在環評程序上的角色可能有點弱化"},{"start":523.698,"end":549.825,"text":"就是好像所有重責單全部都是環境部其他的單位的配合或者是相關的一些處置會相對比較不足那如果是這個風險評估的這個權責措置或者是跨部會的環境議題全部由來環境部來承擔實權的話似乎我們期待有不同的方式來做相關的考量那這個部分部長可不可以有什麼更好的一些想法"},{"start":550.806,"end":574.045,"text":"最近我們也在嘗試有一些案例就是說有些可能未來會有爭議的我們希望說他們在前緣就可以有更好的協作平臺來溝通把這個利害關係者在前面先溝通完成那這個其實國外有一些例如說以生態為主的一個方案我們已經在嘗試當中那我們希望那個可以成功那目前的確委員提到的就是重點所有的壓力全部在我們身上因為我們有否決權"},{"start":575.086,"end":597.432,"text":"所以全部都在我們的身上那這個呢對於很多的目的事業主管機關單位他可能就直接丟到我們這邊反正壞人我們來做所以就造成很大的衝擊我們希望說因為很多的國家不是像臺灣這樣的制度所以我們也希望說未來可以經由大家的討論找出來一個臺灣可以稍微再更好的一個方式在在走現在目前還沒有答案但是我覺得現在的問題是蠻大的"},{"start":598.991,"end":612.838,"text":"是 我們希望Ecosystems是應該從源頭就開始不是到最後的才透過環境部來做最後處理這樣其實是不是理想的一種方式來因應這個社會的或者是環境的變遷"},{"start":614.159,"end":640.997,"text":"最後就再請教一下部長關於應應這個氣候變遷如何遵循國際相關的這個標準跟落實跨國的合作那剛剛好多人也提到您早上提到了這個相關CCPI在評比上的一些問題不過還是要請教就是說未來如何在這個COP30之後呢有關於國際合作還有國內跨部會之間如何共同來因應這種氣候變遷帶來的問題"},{"start":645.28,"end":660.771,"text":"謝謝委員因為這次其實我也跟很多的友邦還有非友邦也進行了一些面對面的雙邊的一個會議其實大家都很肯定我們台灣過去在制定NDC的一個做法特別是過去這一年多很不一樣的企圖心"},{"start":662.012,"end":691.174,"text":"那未來呢我是覺得有一個深水區就是說因為巴黎氣候協定這個COP裡面的實際上政府的談判是很重要的那可是呢我們並沒有在那個裡面所以我未來呢我們跟雙邊的合作能夠了解國際的甚至一起去我們的檢探也可以跟國際的檢探去做連結這個部分是我們要突破的所以這個也就是說為什麼要到巴拉圭花三天時間跟他們好好細談建立一種連結的關係甚至我們的友邦貝里斯等等我們都會積極在做"},{"start":692.662,"end":718.681,"text":"好所以不管是針對人民健康糧食安全或者是生態永續這個的確除了需要跨國合作以外那我們自己政府這個跨部門的合作也非常非常的重要那期待如果部長有在這個合作或者是在這些處理過程裡面有一些會議的記錄報告的話可不可以提供給我們做參考好可以可以那就麻煩部長好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103e7cb10843dd6c3a9408e1b0d34147d1469bc65e346f37e4c232082a5edcaf1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:14:06 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一樣請彭部長有請彭部長委員好 部長還好啦坐四十幾個小時飛機啦可能被傳染 有點感冒資訊沒問題嗎沒有問題 備訓沒問題"},{"start":25.836,"end":42.225,"text":"那我請問一下這個部長剛剛還是一樣就是CCPI的問題那排名台灣排名是59名屬於全球性這個非常差的等級那這是評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放營能源結構那"},{"start":44.557,"end":56.912,"text":"前两年 那两年我们的核能还在运转再生能源也比前一年多一点也就是说就算有核电撑着再生能源勉强前进一点点我们依然只有59名"},{"start":58.615,"end":77.154,"text":"部長沒錯吧對 沒錯對啊 我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠這個石化燃料主要跟燃氣跟燃煤那到現在是現在有時候是火力全開火力發電全開那CCPI給台灣的評分理會很清楚天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源"},{"start":77.774,"end":92.668,"text":"那能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進這個減排速度太慢再生能源進度落後 風電延宕那2025年核電正式退出火力必須補上"},{"start":94.309,"end":112.236,"text":"那包含燃氣燃煤通通要往上拉這是你們政府的能源你們現在的能源規劃那部長我現在請問你一句非常簡單的問題那有核電的時候我們都是排到59名那明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下你認為CCPI的排名會進步嗎還是會退步"},{"start":113.576,"end":139.627,"text":"包委員因為CCPI它的評比有定向又有定性也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起所以基本上它的這個分數評比明智怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議那另外一個是你們是 你當然啦你是認為說它用人均排放不合理嘛對不對因為委員你講到核能像韓國它排在我們後面它的核能也佔了快要20%那我再問你那我現在意思就是說我們在未來這個部分有機會上升嗎"},{"start":141.271,"end":167.39,"text":"你有信心嗎我認為委員這個它並不是一個我說我等於是有人願意做這個評比我們都歡迎但是它如果是一個很有規模很有公信力它評比很正常的機構因為我只看到你在質疑就是說它用人均這個人均排放來評比不太公平那其他的你們表示說你們是默認還是怎麼樣"},{"start":168.602,"end":183.529,"text":"基本上這個就是一個NGO提出一些建議一些報告而已因為台灣把燃氣包裝成這個潔淨橋樑的燃料把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源這是誤導性的做法嘛等於是直接打臉我們政府民進黨政府的能源政策"},{"start":184.169,"end":200.234,"text":"報告委員因為他有些專家會這樣認為但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量還有它的污染的確都比較低所以我們現在選擇的就是說講我們好的那種專家我們才是比較認為他是專家那這種的專家就不是專家了"},{"start":201.314,"end":227.512,"text":"就是不一樣的看法嘛但是整個國際上像我舉例 例如說新加坡沒有在裡面新加坡的這個燃氣大概占了95%所以基本上因為每個國家的地點條件因為全球暖化問題當然不會只有看這個碳排大國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%因為甲烷的洩漏就比藍莓更髒 更暖化那甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍"},{"start":229.093,"end":247.752,"text":"那液化天然氣從開採壓縮液化運輸載到氣化每一段都會洩漏啊所以不管是IPCC這個1.5C的模型全球這個減排路徑全部都把甲烷算進去風險這部分你們可能不知道啊"},{"start":248.753,"end":270.528,"text":"那個甲烷我們是我們台灣不是甲烷的出口這個進口我們是使用國那開採造成的碳排是屬於那個國家他造成的物質造業但是有需求就有開採他自己就要算算在他自己的那我們是算說這個甲烷它本身的排量量多少所以他這樣的這個說法有一點跟實際上的減碳的這個算法是不大一樣的"},{"start":270.788,"end":296.603,"text":"那我再問一下就是說在這個淨零碳排的議題上我們環境部應該是要主導的嘛怎麼感覺我們都是配合經濟部沒有啊我們其實這個都是整個減碳的報告是經濟部是負責能源的部分那我們是負責整個匯整各個部會因為這個部分會不會影響環境我覺得你們要更清楚一點這是你們的業務嘛不要被經濟部牽著走不要被經濟部牽著走"},{"start":298.935,"end":318.041,"text":"沒有啊 這個我們都是彼此在公平公正的在討論這個事情那風電 因為光風電帶給我們人的影響之間我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少這個機會提升那我們未來有沒有能力降低這個燃氣的發電量還是只能往上衝"},{"start":318.883,"end":343.911,"text":"基本上燃氣現在規劃到2030 2035大概都不會超過50都40幾%那希望再生能源能夠順利能夠拉起來所以我們的確在國家的NDC3.0裡面就有制定一些能源的一個結構所以其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右那希望燃煤可以降到大概20%以上好啦部長你再看 你再注意這個議題啦好不好不要被又被排到最後一名去了"},{"start":344.571,"end":358.985,"text":"不會不會不會這個我再請教一下光除暗場要不要做環評光除暗場目前是應該是不用吧因為他是屬於在這個一些的設施者下面"},{"start":360.081,"end":388.9,"text":"不一定喔 有些是在社區旁邊跟委員報告 目前我們的環評相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施去要求說要辦理環評因為儲能設施因為我看到就是說很多地方都在反對啦我都在反對這個問題也不是說今天才發生的一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續看到民眾在抗爭那有些抗爭強一點的他就停下來的沒有抗爭的就繼續做所以我覺得這個部分你們有沒有想過要有一個規範"},{"start":390.802,"end":402.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前有收到有一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮那在我們修訂環評的認定標準的時候我們可以一起來把它做一個討論然後再看是不是把它納入我們的現在規定"},{"start":404.187,"end":423.175,"text":"居民不了解嘛我不敢說他一定會影響旁邊但是我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來讓業者或者民眾也比較懂這個要不然他隨時要設那民眾就恐慌而且他沒有經過環評也沒有說明會沒有說明沒有經過環評就沒有說明會沒有說明會"},{"start":425.892,"end":445.658,"text":"這個老百姓就會不懂不懂的話如果有人講什麼他們當然就會擔心因為這個部分因為離電池在旁邊第一會不會造成身體的影響第二會不會造成這個有風險就是萬一失火我們消防的設施的規範是怎麼樣這些都是要納入考量的"},{"start":448.212,"end":474.104,"text":"這個我們會來討論那其實委員這個有一些再生能源或是新型態的或許是需要大家多一點了解不是說每一個都對我有害不然的話我們現在電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑那是不是會有害所以基本上這個社會的溝通認知這個不一樣啦車子當然你汽油也會爆炸你不能這樣講啦 對不對所以你不能把這個鋰電池把它裝成這個跟除冷廠我這是兩件事"},{"start":475.224,"end":490.28,"text":"這是兩件事情 不要把它混為一堂那問題這個是固定的如果它有危險它是固定的在我住的旁邊是長期在那裡的車子我有開才有上路才會有比較危險啊對不對 你不能這樣比較啊對不對"},{"start":492.216,"end":519.309,"text":"然後我們是希望你們把這個東西規範寫出來讓業者也好讓我們的老百姓也好都能夠比較清楚那最後一個就是光電三法三讀後我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發增加成本所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場這個光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見那你們之前態度也一直"},{"start":520.109,"end":535.912,"text":"不是要寫死要先觀察慢慢研議那現在已經我們國民黨民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面你們反而不用去當壞人照理講環境部應該鬆一口氣那現在越來越反彈環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":537.558,"end":559.251,"text":"其實我們都有規劃在我們的執法裡面要訂而且我們的執法如果一公告然後就要來做公聽本來就是這兩個月要做的事情那我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我說他要修改的時候他說那個數額可以來討論可是我覺得這一次修改因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外不好意思沒有參與到但是我是認為是在這個到底多少的量"},{"start":559.898,"end":578.824,"text":"要環評的部分的話沒有經過一個科學的討論就直接表決就過了我覺得這是我比較遺憾的地方那個可以討論那你會當這個環境永續的守門人嗎我們當然是守門人阿你不要遇到壓力等下要開後門給人家走了喔不會不會 因為那個法已經在母法在那邊我們要"},{"start":579.625,"end":593.326,"text":"環境部要改也是很困難我們也只能遵照大院的一個指示但是守護環境能夠不要破壞環境的一個情況下讓公眾能夠多了解什麼是環評然後多少要環評衝擊是什麼這個也是很重要的好 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副部長那我請劉部長"},{"start":341.777,"end":370.146,"text":"謝謝部長我只有一個問題針對有國民黨的委員說大陸不是外國請問劉部長的看法大陸不是外國就非常訝異因為我們拿的我們拿的中華民國的不管是身份證或者是護照或者是其他的跟這個官方單位有關的都沒有包含中華人應該要反問這個國民黨的委員大陸不是外國請問中華民國是外國嗎那如果"},{"start":371.052,"end":398.322,"text":"大陸不是外國中華人民共和國跟中華民國怎麼如果大陸地區不叫外國的話那等於是變相的承認台灣是中國的一部分因為現在全世界都認知到中國是指中華人民共和國我想其實為了選舉那有國民黨的委員包含民眾黨的委員可能會做出這個提案其實他們只是想要拿到這些選票但是他們忘了"},{"start":398.703,"end":423.522,"text":"最重要的忘了中華民國忘了大陸是我們的敵對勢力忘了大陸一天到晚都想要整病吞我們是我們的國家現在就是中華民國所以我們無論怎麼樣要保全中華民國的最大利益包括主權主權不能讓渡也不能被解釋為是中國的一部分所以在這邊我要請部長對於國際法這一段我們要堅決捍衛是好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781039ca041a3dac5654446adc14d631adda669bc65e346f37e4c5298a28bd9a4829e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:37:56 - 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先請國防部啦 因為先問手冊內容伯父 這個 伍安好這個 我想請教一下 這個最新的普發版本跟我手上這本這本是之前送到我們辦公室的 應該算舊的版本嘛 差異在哪裡"},{"start":25.639,"end":38.473,"text":"這驗色壺的事件嘛加了一個驗色壺還有加了總統的簽名這是新版的新版嘛 問你新舊的差異嘛除了驗色壺之外就是加了總統簽名就這樣嗎我請我們那個"},{"start":44.492,"end":70.169,"text":"包委員普發版跟9月16號初步公佈的這版本最大的差異有幾個地方首先是在序言的地方增加總統的簽名第二個部分是內容增加了眼色湖的這個可能異流或潰壩的部分的一個指引那其次的話在二三個QR code裡面呢"},{"start":70.829,"end":92.418,"text":"我們把這QR code的這個盡量變成短版的QR code便於民眾查詢好謝謝這個本席先給這個國防部一個建議啦因為稍早張志倫我也有提你們這個報告裡面寫的東西聽我覺得有點噁心啦說淺顯易懂的方式編寫視覺吸睛的射鏡風格深獲各界正面肯定或迴響"},{"start":93.584,"end":108.392,"text":"希望索取或授權印製等等所以要補發我跟你講這些東西其實大可不必為什麼還有總統的簽名我當然不是說總統簽名不好但我請教一下國防部部長你們講副部長你們之前參佐了世界各國的版本他們都有總統簽名嗎恐怕不見得吧我這個我沒有太注意不過因為"},{"start":113.281,"end":119.523,"text":"總統也非常重視這件事情啦我知道總統很重視這件事情這個也是全國的事情我想這個總統來簽名我想對於我們國防部來講也是一種鼓舞也是肯定我們這份手冊從你的國防部的本位來講它是一種鼓舞本來就是鼓舞對我們工作同仁來講是一個鼓舞對這是從你工作同仁的角度但你想想看從社會大眾的角度總統是選舉產生這幾年台灣的政治不是特別安定彼此之間或有仇視的狀況"},{"start":139.389,"end":148.917,"text":"那麼當你加了簽名然後加上馬上就要普發的時候他當然就會被政治化解讀嘛我今天要談的是這個事情報偉總統是三軍統帥我們所有國防排批書以後QRQDR全部都是總統簽名沒關係你如果今天要很堅持我也沒有打算說服你但我要跟你討論一下這件事情不管是你的國防業務裡面提的民防等等"},{"start":163.228,"end":184.238,"text":"其實我們都希望政策可以順利的來推動 以便大家政黨不一樣但就是因為政黨不一樣 所以我要提醒 你要聽一聽不同的聲音我們的社會因為政治氛圍不太好 這都是現實所以越多政治相關的符碼在裡面的時候它反而會對你的宣傳 穩定等等效果造成負面影響這我想 你應該只可以理解這樣建議的初衷啦 對不對"},{"start":187.359,"end":199.317,"text":"我們都不要用政治的角度來談這件事情不會 絕對不會用政治角度因為你剛好做了這樣的事然後剛好又加碼普發那當然就會或多或少一些狀況我本身就是要善盡在黨的角色我們要做一些提醒的角色希望可以做一些處理那這個"},{"start":201.232,"end":221.831,"text":"有一些東西因為你們在談這樣子的一個手冊的認定的時候你們講的參酌了很多國家的判斷那當然這一陣年頭啊因應這個各式各樣的地緣風險的一個上升啊大家就會談說假訊息跟資訊識讀的裡面是很重要的這一點本席百分之百贊成但是裡面的一些內容上本席是認為有或有精進之處"},{"start":222.572,"end":239.877,"text":"比如說我們拿瑞典的這個一樣他們的國防安全手冊來談的話他們去談假訊息的試讀的時候其實是非常明顯的是寫得很清楚的也就是說在核實訊息的時候應該避免依賴單一社群平台作為資訊來源應該要有多方查證的這樣的義務那相對來講我們在談資訊的時候卻寫說如果焦慮的話就不要看太多新聞跟網路資訊"},{"start":245.279,"end":251.102,"text":"我覺得這個內容上或有可以精進之處啦是 謝謝委員長副部長你有沒有收到一些相關這樣子的一些我們當然有各方的聲音我們都聽到了我想這個手冊之所以會有這麼多聲音就是大家對它期待希望它更好那我覺得這次就是我們在製作這個手冊的初衷我們希望這個手冊能夠讓大家接受"},{"start":264.449,"end":279.857,"text":"能夠讓大家平常的時候都有準備我想這是最重要的概念這個本席並不反對啊本來就是這個不管是防災或國防的意識的普及這是大家都會贊成的這樣一個價值所以本席才要善盡提醒有關訊息的部分其實他是越客觀然後接受性"},{"start":280.217,"end":307.289,"text":"越低越沒有針對性越沒有政治駙馬他其實效果就會好因為不管是誰執政不管是什麼樣的狀況大家接到訊息都是一樣的所以他才具備有客觀然後大家會願意互相相信互相信賴瑞典的這個手冊裡面有講啊你不只是要看這本手冊的內容你也要跟你身邊的人建立強而有力的社群連結嘛守望相助這樣子的一個概念這觀念都正確但是台灣現在最大的問題就是因為政治大家彼此之間對立太嚴重"},{"start":307.802,"end":322.554,"text":"所以大家要面對這個事情來做合理的處理本席的建議就是在寫這些相關的內容的時候政治的色彩越淡越好他視頻報導他很無聊都沒有關係因為這樣反而比較好的穿透效果這是本席給國防部的建議報告員我可以容我講一句話可以沒問題"},{"start":325.437,"end":334.142,"text":"災變這個事情是沒有政黨的對沒錯嘛災變這個事情是我們全民大家都要能夠祈求自己家庭平安我想在這種色彩上來講我們國防部本來就是聰明我們做這個手冊你看我們注意救災的時候我們也沒有分政黨啊當然我們當時第一時間就出動所以這個手冊希望大家是一個"},{"start":347.19,"end":370.071,"text":"平常心來看一個災難的防災的一個應變希望全民都安全我們花了五分多鐘的時間討論就是因為遇到了這樣的事嘛我們一起來解決這件事 好不好 這是本期的建議那希望國防部可以採納雅言 好不好好 我最後一點點時間我要請教內政部因為同樣啊 我們談一下防災的部分你也沒有談 我其實之前我印象中我在內政委員會我就有質詢過相關的題目啦"},{"start":372.087,"end":393.548,"text":"你剛剛稍早工作報告的時候我還特別去載APP看了防空避難空間我們現在遇到這個狀況馬上就有防空避難的需求但是細節這本期還是要善盡提醒的責任本期舉個例子本期過去在龜山的租屋處我以前做議員的時候租的房子它的地下室每一棟大樓的地下室都是你理所當然的防災避難空間"},{"start":394.502,"end":407.227,"text":"理論上是對不對但我那個大樓地下是什麼呢是那個立體停車塔就它不是人 它是沒有人的通道的它就是一個立體停車塔然後它用操作車子升上去降下來欸 那個防空避難處聲稱可以容納300多人"},{"start":409.471,"end":437.79,"text":"那我就常常想如果真的我如果還住在這個地方真的遇到了空襲警報我們是當然要一起進去然後還有人幫我們操作幫我們送下去嗎好像不太對所以本期在講你在做了很多的通路跟渠道跟宣傳這都很好但是詳細的盤點我還是要請內政部請警政系統這邊要做一下把控啦也就是說哪一些是真正人流可以順利出入的這樣子的一個防空避難處所哪一些狀況只是當初可能是為了要趕快交作業不見得精細的地方要趕快讓它完整"},{"start":439.09,"end":460.827,"text":"這樣子你公布的不管是在手冊上的APP上面的等等到時候真的發生災變的時候它才是一個可以去的地方是 謝謝委員我們會來檢討改進那理論上在地方政府的警政跟消防系統他們都要定時去看一下狀況沒錯 沒錯 沒錯那如果需要修正的話會根據我們的參數來做修正對啊 偶爾會有一些這樣子的特例那你也不要太苛責但是要求一下我們會來做一下盤點 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明定受理程序新增輕師溝通預防機制這個是在第二條的內容上面覺得也是好的一個情形因為本身你就必須要我先跟大家講因為大學裡面我是在高等教育出身就是可以看到"},{"start":92.179,"end":118.113,"text":"一般的老師他是優良的一般老師就是算是正常的普通的他本身就是應該夠格的那我們現在都還有師奪獎是那個優良教師他本身就應該不是說給他加獎 技獎這個部分等等的技工等等的那有一些部分的像這次的一個不適任的部分等等的就本來就有一些考核的跟教評會的這個機制是沒有錯但是大部分的老師中規中矩的都沒有問題"},{"start":119.573,"end":139.665,"text":"這個可是因為消失會議的一個場所謂不適任就基本上把大家當中可能只要有被檢舉就把它放進來因此在這個過程當中呢最重要的要先把這種不適任的就說有可能的不是因為他一時的一個情緒或者是他本身是經驗不足而導致的這種情形要把它排除掉"},{"start":140.645,"end":167.87,"text":"那這部分的話消失婚姻當中因此要先針對有這個親師溝通的預防機制是很重要的這個部分就讓他先如果他本身就屬於排除掉那些特性的因素他根本不是屬於不適任的在這個第二條件做了這個了解之後甚至是做更客等等的他就進入到輔導機制去進行那就有可能就回復到他原來的部分他就避免的這樣子的一個被"},{"start":168.53,"end":197.057,"text":"甚至我覺得是被臨時調查的這種情形那第二個我們後來也看到是說他呢這邊也包括說有一個在如果這邊接受到調查的情況他有這個輔佐人的機制這個也是好的事情你現在的是他自己可以選任在家長的老師們在給他支持在他熟悉的環境當中去面對這樣一個調查東東都是好事情那至於說包括後面的如果有這個檢舉的結果不受理的話他也必須要跟"},{"start":198.457,"end":218.858,"text":"跟這個檢舉人或是陳情人去公告就是讓他通知這都是讓他知道我們已經處理完這樣的事情尤其是現在的這個調查受理的過程當中呢已經把原來的這個消失會議當中的這些也有外聘的委員等等的都放進來本身就可以派避到過去所謂被吃爛的部分那我現在最重要的是要講這邊的因為"},{"start":222.59,"end":247.465,"text":"國中高小學裡面沒有高校裡面的評鑑機制但是大學裡面講的評鑑機制當中他們都還有教學資源中心這種輔導機制可是因為國中高小學不適合做評鑑這個部分我特別要強調這種輔導機制的落實是很重要的那這輔導機制呢這個當中就是必須要給在"},{"start":248.465,"end":262.753,"text":"尤其是我覺得我剛才提出來就是說教育部有這個方向的草案出來了好事但是我覺得因為他本身還是在他的名字叫做什麼這個法的名字叫做高級中等以下學校教師解聘"},{"start":263.553,"end":282.768,"text":"不續聘停聘或支險辦法他本身如果落入到這個機制當中就是要往向那個目標去做這是非常不適合的因此加上因為這次的修改的內容當中有加上輔導機制預防溝通的預防機制還有輔助人機制有這個本身在原來的國民教育法或者是"},{"start":284.469,"end":310.818,"text":"教師法當中 他就算是有一些這樣的機制當中給他寄 他說因為申誡給他寄過等等的 可是還是沒有輔導機制啊剛好補足了這一個部分 我因此會建議我強烈的建議喔 這個法呢又是要提到是高級中等 就加入輔導兩個字 輔導兩個字 把他變成說高級中等以下學校 教師輔導 解聘 不續聘 停聘或支遣辦法"},{"start":311.818,"end":324.686,"text":"因為這樣子才能夠讓 表示我們老師當然也不是人非完人也不是萬事失表這種情況 但是他會有需要輔導的機制 當然要補足在高校裡面的教學資源中心的輔導的內涵在"},{"start":327.128,"end":355.234,"text":"包括這一部分當然還可以再充實如果把它變成這樣做就可以知道教育部的立場是在輔導支持我們的教師而不是依照著這樣一個比較這個現在因為民意高漲啊或是這個教師家長或學生的意識比較高就會變成說一介紹什麼陳菊姐姐現在已經改變了但是過去的這種情況絕對要做很大的改變回報原來是屬於教學校就是一個教學溝通輔導"},{"start":358.266,"end":377.073,"text":"甚至去養成 再重生養成的這樣子的一個本身自己不只對學校學生 甚至對老師對我在所謂的在教育的老師都還可以在精進的這樣一個方法 甚至我覺得啦精進輔導我覺得都是一個好的想法因此我在這邊就是要"},{"start":378.413,"end":388.459,"text":"強烈的建議教育部在會後事實上往這個方式去思考才能夠提振我們現在在一個低迷的教師士氣當中還騎乘教師荒的這樣的一種情況好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781038f550cb9d3268e200652d1d50d7223a569bc65e346f37e4cff9dbc3ffde695e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:41:27 - 10:53:45","影片長度":"00:12:18","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「日本首相高市早苗『台灣有事說』及『安保三文件修正』對區域安全及台海穩定的情勢研析」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-24","start_time":"2025-11-24T10:41:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-24T10:53:45+08:00","duration":738,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-4-35-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.754718750000002,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.75534375,"end":86.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.73471875,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.61784375000002,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.10284375,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.27471875,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.61159375,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.23971875,"end":167.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.95409375,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.44221875000002,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.39159375000003,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.77846875,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.42784375000002,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.68096875,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.97471875000002,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.47909375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.12096875000003,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.47534375000004,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.55971875,"end":315.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.59346875,"end":315.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.62721875,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.18409375000005,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.11159375,"end":325.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.33034375,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.63721875000005,"end":342.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.57659375000003,"end":401.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.74034375,"end":418.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.56034375,"end":420.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.60659375,"end":427.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.33971875000003,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.44471875000005,"end":430.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.08596875,"end":431.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.05596875000003,"end":434.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.39346875,"end":436.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.62971875000005,"end":434.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.11909375000005,"end":452.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.16284375000004,"end":459.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.06971875000005,"end":455.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.17034375000003,"end":464.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.52034375000005,"end":459.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.17409375000005,"end":463.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.90346875,"end":466.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.29159375,"end":473.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.93596875000003,"end":475.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.94409375000004,"end":478.40346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.75784375,"end":491.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.37659375000004,"end":496.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.13909375000003,"end":497.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.69159375000004,"end":501.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.86034375,"end":498.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.86846875000003,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.79221875,"end":505.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.82096875,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.6340937499999,"end":517.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.5534687500001,"end":518.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.1228437500001,"end":548.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.97471875,"end":573.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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麻煩請國安局副局長還有我們外交部次長兩位請國安好"},{"start":13.656,"end":28.46,"text":"我想今天大家關注的可能就是高市早苗首相他之前的談論那現在目前可能也引發中日之間比較緊張的關係那其實就很多國家來說其實並沒有很明確的表態包括美國"},{"start":35.882,"end":51.265,"text":"所以我們就這個部分來看因為高市首相我想其實他很重要的一個目的還是為了日本本身因為就安保三文件跟非核三原則其實他們一直希望可以做修正尤其是現在在地緣政治上面有不斷的一些緊張的情勢在升溫還有整個國際局勢的情況之下我想他很重要的是希望他的軍隊可以正常化"},{"start":62.708,"end":80.462,"text":"因為就目前來看他的軍隊的年齡其實是可能都是偏高只有自衛隊的這樣子的功能那另外就是他武器可以輸出可以做出售這個可能也是他們的一個方向另外一個就是非核三原則他們也希望可以改變這個因為這一次在美韓的關稅談判裡面韓國其實他都已經可以"},{"start":86.986,"end":97.571,"text":"得到美國的同意幫他們可能可以製造核潛艦的部分所以我想這個可能是日本很重要的一個自己在整體的軍事發展或者在他的很多的國家防衛的上面其實他想要達到的一個目的"},{"start":104.734,"end":124.885,"text":"所以就這個部分因為當然我們在區域維持穩定和平這是大家共同想要去努力的一個方向可是當我們看到很多其他周邊國家也好或者世界在對這個部分都不是這麼強力的去做評論的時候我想我們應該也要兼顧我們自己的國家整體安全這樣對不對是 貓委員"},{"start":134.472,"end":138.649,"text":"剛剛委員的分析其實非常精闢事實上我們看到是"},{"start":141.328,"end":167.009,"text":"高市首相會提出這樣的一個修改安保三文件主要考量還是在於面對到區域環境安全環境的改變包括中共的一個威脅的迫近還有俄羅斯跟北韓這些傳統日本非常關切的區域的安全威脅那有建議跟美盟跟美國要加強日本日美的一個"},{"start":169.099,"end":195.632,"text":"合作那另外要推動區域的相關美盟在印太區域的有盟的合作他著眼於這樣的強化自衛隊的能量所以去進行這樣的修改但後面他修改的內容我們會持續關注剛剛提到包括配合三原則這個部分事實上內部他們還沒有達到一個共識我們會持續密註這個他們在這方面調整後勤的發展畢竟"},{"start":196.692,"end":221.625,"text":"這個會影響到整個我們印太地區尤其亞太地區區域安全的一個發展那所以這個部分我們本局會持續來關注所以就整個情勢來看因為我想這個可能還會持續一段時間吧就我們剛剛提到的一些相關的判斷所以我們也希望其實在整體的發展上面因為我們也要考量到台灣本身的安全"},{"start":222.465,"end":228.186,"text":"這個才是最大的一個目標方向因為我們看到近期烏克蘭俄烏戰爭已經進行三年九個月那最近其實包括川普總統提出來的和平計畫其實對烏克蘭傷害是很大的所以對於澤倫斯基在做選擇的時候其實也是一個非常艱難的一個抉擇"},{"start":245.85,"end":268.995,"text":"就這個狀況所以我們才說其實台灣的安全還有區域的和平才是我們應該要強化的而不是我們在現階段我們可能就有很多的行為動作會去引起不必要的紛爭這個跟示弱或者妥協根本是無關的而是我們要整體的考量就是我們的區域安全還有台灣本身自己"},{"start":269.475,"end":275.6,"text":"在和平在整個這個牽動上面應該要扮演什麼角色這個真的是非常重要所以就這些部分我想今天還有一個我想要請教的因為剛剛還包括外交部剛剛也提到很多可是我們除了這些以外我們今天金融時報有特別提到我們看到他們發布的大概我們在美台的關稅談判裡面"},{"start":297.596,"end":314.575,"text":"這樣子的一個貿易協定可能已經快要在近期就會宣布那就你們的掌握不管是國安單位也好或者外交部也好就這個部分投資4000億美元這個的目前的一個態勢是怎麼樣就你們掌握的一個方向這個"},{"start":316.52,"end":331.101,"text":"這個部分我想應該是我們行政院經貿團隊他們在談判所以這個部分我們要尊重談判團隊他們的一個這個已經不是尊重談判團隊因為這個牽涉非常龐大的這甚至動搖國本"},{"start":332.694,"end":350.272,"text":"的投資金額還有我們的採購金額因為過去還有包括就是我們國防的支出要高達GDP的5%以上日本韓國或其他周邊國家或者甚至其他區域的國家其實都還沒有增加到這麼高的額度所以我們看到說這個4千億"},{"start":351.493,"end":355.596,"text":"這個不是只有尊重因為我們看到一路以來其實是黑箱過去在服貿的時候包括鄭麗君副院長他那時候也是反服貿黑箱非常大力在反對的所以他今天必須要堅持這樣的理念讓所有的國人知道因為今天不是小金額今天也不是一般的談判這個牽涉到我們整體的投資還有我們所有的產業鏈最重要的產業鏈的外移"},{"start":381.733,"end":383.934,"text":"還有我們投資的金額這麼龐大因為我們看到日本承諾5500億美元他佔GDP大概14%韓國承諾的是3500億美元佔GDP的20%假設台灣同意4000億美元的投資我們的佔比高達49.5%幾乎一半"},{"start":401.818,"end":404.6,"text":"這個12兆的金額是我們4年的總預算的金額所以對我們來說是非常影響非常深遠而且對後續的發展也影響非常大所以我想這個不是尊重談判辦公室而已這一個國安單位有什麼看法"},{"start":420.88,"end":424.123,"text":"包委員就是因為這個談判過程經過很多輪的談判我想我們的談判團隊 副局長沒關係談判的過程因為現在是沒有沒有揭露沒有公開因為我們也不認同可是如果是4千億"},{"start":437.973,"end":442.335,"text":"美元這樣子的一個投資的金額你們在國安的團隊角色上面的看法是什麼我剛剛講了大家的GDP的占比日本也好 韓國也好 台灣是非常高的這因為還在談判過程當中 那如果是呢這個假設性問題我想 這個不是假設性喔因為接連就會公布了如果真的發生的時候是大家"},{"start":465.026,"end":476.172,"text":"在這個談判的過程當中談判團隊是依據我們國家利益跟產業利益去跟美方去交涉的可以告訴我們可以得到什麼利益嗎可能要由談判團隊專業來評估來說明"},{"start":479.02,"end":495.611,"text":"這個不是談判團隊談判團隊談的是過程我現在說國安團隊對於這個部分其實他所做的平息他的延期如果我們高達GDP快要50%了確定結果我們才能夠比較更精確來做這樣的一個評估他會不會影響就你們的看法會造成什麼影響會造成什麼影響如果這麼高額的這樣的一個投資金額"},{"start":506.857,"end":524.302,"text":"我想這個還是就這樣的一個過程因為細節內容就要綜合來看所以光看一個金額或什麼我們如果綜合來看更可悲因為除了投資金額非常大以外我們的國防預算要承諾高達"},{"start":525.362,"end":528.985,"text":"GDP的5%然後我們還有農產品的採購高達100億的美元然後還有我們開放整個市場他可能是零關稅而且是依照美國的一個規定跟標準然後我們還有其他之前相關的談判沒有一個對我們台灣是比較有利的"},{"start":549.188,"end":554.172,"text":"結果我們如果談出來還是跟美國日本一樣都是15%頂多不疊加那我們到底得到什麼這樣是合理的嗎國安團隊今天我想我們就這個部分請國安局在後續針對這個部分因為已經快要可能要公佈了嘛這個部分請國安團隊再去做一些評析跟考量然後提供給我們委員會好不好好 委員會來做評估"},{"start":575.228,"end":595.808,"text":"那另外先請回那就請外交部就剛剛吳院好市長好那就剛剛我們提到的就是如果說我們的條約締結法如果牽涉到現在談判的結果大家不能接受或者我們立法院審議不通過的時候會造成什麼影響"},{"start":598.657,"end":613.936,"text":"基本上條例締結法一定要立法院通過我不曉得委員是指哪一項因為我們剛剛提到的有很多的條件如果他真的呈現出來是我們所質疑的或者我們現在不能接受的因為像這樣子投資4千億那個嗎對 投資4千億"},{"start":616.72,"end":624.286,"text":"關於投資我想在理念相近國家互相投資這是正常現象比如說輝達現在世界上最大公司也決定來台灣投資Amazon Google Meta都來台灣投資你把這種商業的投資跟我們現在的關稅談判並在一起談這是不恰當的我們現在講的因為他是為了他的商業利益他會做這樣的選擇他並不是因為在談判的過程當中他說"},{"start":644.262,"end":649.065,"text":"互蒙其利所以來台灣投資 並不是所以我們現在要講的是如果就這個部分它會對台灣造成很大的影響我剛剛講的沒有一個對台灣是明顯有利的我們的關稅甚至也只是跟美國所以這是屬於互相投資因為台積電也不是只有政府可以我們沒有辦法叫台積電去那邊投資台積電是個私人公司我們政府是其中一部分我說的是4000億包括台積電台積電政府其實是可以"},{"start":673.097,"end":677.298,"text":"可以不要同意事實上是可以因為牽涉到國安不是台積電不要同意是政府如果認為牽涉到對整個國家發展安全都有影響的時候政府是可以有角色政府是可以有態度的可是我們現在看到的目前不是這樣所以就這個部分外交部在條約締結法上面因為我們過去在"},{"start":699.224,"end":702.685,"text":"在談判的過程當中不管是服貿也好因為之前蕭美琴召委她現在是我們的副總統其實她那時候在委員會她也明確的表態如果我們的人民不同意或者對國家造成太大的影響其實甚至立法院都可以叫她退回重新談判這個部分我們也希望如果對我們影響太大的時候我們應該要有什麼樣的態度外交部跟國安"},{"start":725.494,"end":732.049,"text":"國安局其實必須要事先做有一些相關的因應作為好不好是的 我們絕對照憲法來走憲法 我們有條約締結法你就用條約締結法就好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781031aea80614f4f7346485b48840d78e4d869bc65e346f37e4c9c2ab639a50d16805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:26:22 - 10:34:31","影片長度":"00:08:09","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「解決教師荒—校事會議檢討及策進」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-24","start_time":"2025-11-24T10:26:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-24T10:34:31+08:00","duration":489,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.12096875,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.35971875,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.92534375,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.42721875,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.71221875,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.87659375,"end":255.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.78846875000002,"end":301.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.19471875,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.48096875000005,"end":368.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.27284375000005,"end":395.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.98596875000004,"end":406.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.24159375000005,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.49846875000003,"end":413.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.02534375000005,"end":426.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.64346875,"end":433.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.51159375000003,"end":463.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.48159375,"end":477.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.35284375000003,"end":483.34784375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.599,"text":"作词曲 李宗盛"},{"start":8.24,"end":34.722,"text":"謝謝我們主席我們外媒營委員謝謝跟所有的今天出席的專家學者們還有參與的夥伴們 大家好那麼感謝召委這一次這一個有關於校事會議的這個公聽會來召開那我們知道整個少子化台灣的少子化讓整個教育現場承受前所未有的壓力然後班級數變少學生數也變少教師跟代理教師也變少"},{"start":35.702,"end":57.879,"text":"這樣一個結構性挑戰讓學校疲於奔命但是在教育第一線的老師又必須面對另一層的心理壓力也就是來自校士會議制度所衍生的濫訴與鬥爭這讓整個教師荒 雪上加霜校士會議原本的設計是為了讓學校有一個處理爭議與申訴的機制"},{"start":60.02,"end":82.405,"text":"然後也需要兼顧學生的權益跟教室的工作權但是這幾年尤其是剛才我們聽到幾位學者還有專家提到的尤其是在這近八九年間整個食物運作上卻逐漸偏離了初中變成一個介於行政調查懲戒與人際鬥爭之間的灰色平台"},{"start":83.465,"end":92.177,"text":"整個事件是當案子被舉發之後沒有明確的一個受理門檻也沒有嚴謹的程序規範導致變成匿名檢舉氾濫輕易的啟動了調查之後又讓被檢舉的老師陷入長期的冗長的程序跟巨大的心理壓力"},{"start":101.849,"end":131.037,"text":"那我們從教育現場聽到很多的實例比如說匿名性一個模糊的指控就讓老師進入很久很久的一個調查程序那被檢舉的老師又要自我證明有的時候他根本不知道或者是他也沒有做一些事情然後自己要舉證然後還要接受很多查訪那等待結論的時間又很久即便最後清白了整個心理的創傷也是非常的大那這樣的制度真的符合教育部當時你們所要強調的"},{"start":131.657,"end":148.192,"text":"的保障學生受教跟教師工作權嗎整個教師法的第29條規範了教師的解聘不續聘代聘或支遣的程序是中央主管機關機關被授權訂定的一個範圍和教師法第14條到第16條當中"},{"start":150.994,"end":165.39,"text":"並沒有要求學校一定要透過設置校事會議作為中介調查的機關許多老師也認為這樣的制度設計已經架空了整個原有的機制像教師評審委員會或教師成績考核會的"},{"start":166.531,"end":190.867,"text":"相关的一个职权甚至会形成一些太上皇室的重叠体系让教师原本的程序保障受到侵蚀那在现行的制度底下呢学校已经有很多个机制例如教评会或教师考核会性评会学生申诉评议会那也负责不同领域的申诉跟审议又叠加了一个校师会议也形成了"},{"start":191.587,"end":208.027,"text":"跌床架屋更讓校園的爭議陷入一些交叉處理責任不明的困境很嚴重的就是一旦校事會議被誤用為政治鬥爭或人際報復的工具最終受害的不僅是教師而是整個教育體制的信任跟穩定"},{"start":209.068,"end":229.605,"text":"那麼教育部呢表示我們要精進這個流程嘛但是這個要回歸最主要當時是要處理不適合教師的一個制度初衷但是這個修補也沒有能夠解決制度失衡的問題反倒越來越失衡那也沒有辦法改變組織全能的諜床架屋的問題也沒有"},{"start":230.966,"end":255.007,"text":"辦法來挽回教師的尊嚴所以我們真正該問的是當時的教師法教評會跟校內的其他機制是不是可以涵蓋教師行為的檢核校事會議是不是有存在的必要這是我們要考量的原先的一些初衷究竟有沒有經過這一段時間的實施而處理了問題還是增加了更多的問題"},{"start":256.028,"end":285.436,"text":"本席沒有否定外部的監核機制但是很重要就是說我們要強化制度的比例原則跟正當程序對教師而言申訴跟調查應該有明確的門檻避免所謂的零成本的檢舉那麼對學生而言權益的保護也要有制度的保障而不是讓整個案件來陷入程序反覆像剛才我們聽到一些專家談到就是這個程序上一直來來回回的那沒有人"},{"start":285.876,"end":301.129,"text":"真的能夠處理這樣的問題那麼教育現場的鬥爭文化因此而持續蔓延那受傷的也不是只有教師包括學生 家長 校園整個校園的信任關係都被破壞我這邊提出三點建議"},{"start":302.31,"end":328.009,"text":"我們是不是第一應該重新來檢視校事會議既有的機制跟學校原有的制度性的會議平台是不是有功能重疊那如果需要再強化的部分應該明確界定各組織的職權那第二個部分是強化程序的門檻跟教師的保障要求具名檢舉或複具事證撤回檢舉應及終止調查"},{"start":330.771,"end":359.789,"text":"那麼校士會議的人才庫我想這是進入了一個應該檢視的階段那另外剛才有專家提到第三方公正機制那這個機制假設有所謂的培訓制度在教師的專業跟法制的專業上那還要有一些時間跟個案的一些理解那這個部分要避免外面的行政對不起外行干預教師的專業這個是很重要的我想"},{"start":361.111,"end":367.688,"text":"這幾年應該也面對這樣子的問題有誰真正能夠來評斷這一些每一個個案它所有的細節"},{"start":369.329,"end":394.886,"text":"好 那第三個部分是我們應該落實回歸以教師評審委員會為核心的審議架構確保依法審查 依法保障然後外部委員或許可以討論看看是不是在這幾個平台裡面去增設或者是什麼樣子的機制來做一個調整讓教師能夠在制度內獲得公正的處理不要因為被校長或某一些人的會議主導而被困住"},{"start":396.167,"end":412.679,"text":"那我們知道很確定的教師荒是台灣實質的問題教師跟代理教師荒這也是目前正在上演的全球教師報告這是聯合國教科文組織所提的報告"},{"start":414.113,"end":425.929,"text":"全球教師地位報告跟教學與學習國際調查報告這是OEDC所提的報告都提到教師短缺是全世界包括台灣"},{"start":428.014,"end":442.948,"text":"現存的一個很大的問題這是很大的隱憂在我們目前的環境下教師最需要的是信任跟支持而不是被制度給綁住本席請教育部誠實面對這個長期困擾基層的問題跟教師團體來好好檢視一個問題"},{"start":447.833,"end":477.153,"text":"那麼你們的態度跟所謂剛才有一位專家談到知所節制但是在行政上應該可以積極認識不要讓程序一直來回那我們要的不是一個鬥爭性的制度而是真正能夠解決問題的一個制度請讓我們把良善回歸校園並且透過制度的積極調整跟改變來解決目前真的全世界包括台灣都有的教師及代理教師黃"},{"start":478.395,"end":483.089,"text":"谢谢谢谢林倩琪委员那我们现在休息五分钟五分钟之后我们再继续开会"}]}},{"id":"165783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f7810344d316acb64c73d046adc14d631adda6ce48de7d8cd95b0db22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:59:56 - 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清楚我要公开呼吁希望在野党就此停住不要提出这个荒谬的修法好谢谢谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781030302deb9654bbbdf408e1b0d34147d1469bc65e346f37e4cf61d29bd310f8b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:36:24 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我們請部長"},{"start":14.665,"end":36.213,"text":"部長好部長我今天想要請教就是我們那個資源回收的這個區塊那我們知道就是說在前一陣子因為非洲豬瘟的關係所以我們那個廚餘回收生廚餘或熟廚餘可能就沒辦法養豬那其實一般的民眾他對於"},{"start":36.913,"end":65.393,"text":"到底这个果皮到底是生厨余或者熟厨余其实有的会搞不清楚那另外就是说有的县市他也不收这个果皮那有的县市收果皮所以我觉得说环境部针对这一部分你们是不是要制定一个标准让地方政府可以依循所以部长我想请教就是说像你如果你有吃香蕉的话那这个香蕉皮"},{"start":66.715,"end":75.387,"text":"這個香蕉皮是廚餘是可以丟到這個生廚餘裡這個桶子裡面或者是直接丟到垃圾桶是"},{"start":76.704,"end":97.299,"text":"保委員因為各縣市他處女生熟處女有的是以前是養豬有的豬他是不吃一些果皮的所以這些果皮會跑到堆肥裡面可是有一些地方他可能是堆肥的又不夠"},{"start":98.18,"end":117.395,"text":"或者是各个设施不一样所以他们在对于清洁队员在收的时候就会指导这些民众你应该把它放在什么地方依照各地方设施的不同所以是依照各地方设施不同然后它到底是身处于或者是垃圾或者是"},{"start":118.977,"end":141.278,"text":"這到底可不可以回收就是按照地方政府的規定原則上中央有一個定定有一個指導原則像三十王振旭這個委員你有提到那帳號到底是什麼是一件事情說我們確實有一張不過執行面確實有時候在地方政府我們"},{"start":141.978,"end":156.229,"text":"可以再跟他們多多宣導還是依照我們那一張去做那他們最主要考慮的是他們的這個設施的能量跟他的類別所以他會有小小的一個差異但是差異不大"},{"start":157.054,"end":183.534,"text":"差異不大那我想請教就是剛剛講的這個香蕉皮那它到底是這個廚餘還是垃圾一般是做堆肥去的堆肥所以是生廚餘對生廚餘那我想請教就是這個西瓜皮然後橘子皮柚子皮這種軟果皮它到底是這個也會去堆肥因為豬不喜歡吃酸的東西像這些鳳梨或橘子皮這類的"},{"start":184.395,"end":212.326,"text":"好那有的縣市他根本這種果皮他根本也都不收嘛就像基隆他就只有收熟廚餘嘛那其他生廚餘他是不收的因為他沒有那個處理的這個堆肥的量所以他直接焚燒好那像那個椰子殼啊然後那個榴蓮殼有的縣市是收有那個台北市新北市高雄市他是另外包的話他是收喔"},{"start":213.533,"end":228.291,"text":"所以我都覺得說這個應該環境部針對生廚餘熟廚餘或者是這些果皮到底可不可以回收我覺得應該也要有一個統一的標準吧"},{"start":229.931,"end":252.066,"text":"那如果說這個縣市它的設備不足是不是可以協調各縣市政府也許他可以做成堆肥就像剛剛署長講的可以做成堆肥那如果說它的設施不足的話是不是應該也要去協調地方政府這個我們看到資源回收車都說這個回收這個就是資源"},{"start":253.107,"end":282.084,"text":"對啊那個垃圾可以回收就是資源啊回收車都是這樣說的所以我是不是可以建議就是環境部針對這一部分應該要有更讓民眾可以知道就是說那這個這些軟的果皮是不是可以做成堆肥或者是就是可以回收那有時候這個現實是這樣子另外一個現實又不一樣好像真的還蠻混亂的所以我是不是可以建議環境部針對這一部分是不是應該要做一個統一"},{"start":283.527,"end":297.746,"text":"是 謝謝委員建議我們來做一個指引跟一個統一不過剛才特別提到的真的確實都是會產生爭議的譬如說椰子殼等等之類的"},{"start":298.567,"end":319.196,"text":"那這種個別的我們對個別鄉市政跟縣市政府再來做了解他不收的原因確實是什麼有一些是快速堆肥有一些是傳統堆肥一般傳統堆肥還好快速堆肥的話有一些料他們就會選那是不是在縣府裡面做一個統一的調度這個我們來"},{"start":320.917,"end":340.393,"text":"來做協調是好那我再請教就是說從非洲豬瘟爆發到現在我們現在是廚餘禁止養豬那現在大部分縣市的這個廚餘都怎麼去化大概每個縣市不一樣那像我們目前統計出來大概48%是進到焚化爐"},{"start":342.677,"end":370.169,"text":"就直接進到焚化爐那你現在還是廚餘進養豬那直接進到焚化爐這個所有的收廚餘那湯湯水水全部都進到焚化爐那這個焚化爐的壽命就會減短因為他那個我們現在都鼓勵要瀝乾就是湯湯水水少一些所以基本上現在你看那個廚餘的量我們統計現在1000大概1700噸左右之前是平均是2100所以少了很多因為這是湯湯水水"},{"start":371.289,"end":386.674,"text":"如果要進這個焚化爐他一定要把這個水能夠瀝乾才能夠進去不是說直接把那個一桶的收水直接倒進去所以我是不是在這邊也要請部長就是說我在上禮拜在這個經濟委員會的時候我有問這個"},{"start":388.414,"end":411.093,"text":"那個農業部的陳部長就是說我們現在目前是廚餘禁止養豬那所有的這個養豬協會他們是希望就是說廚餘就不要再養豬了那全台灣目前還有差不多8%左右就是這個養豬場他是用廚餘養豬那是不是可以"},{"start":411.713,"end":431.311,"text":"因為廚餘的這個去化的部分就是在環境部那到底要不要養豬是農業部的責任那如果說未來真的廚餘禁止養豬的話後續廚餘要怎麼去處理就回到這個環境部這邊要來處理要來傷腦筋了所以我是不是可以請教部長雖然這個前一陣子我們這個署長這邊也有在"},{"start":435.554,"end":452.923,"text":"各北中南各開就是讓所有的養豬場知道就是說如果你是用廚餘養豬的話政府會補助就是真主的一些設備真主的那個監控的這個設備那是不是可以建議就未來"},{"start":454.103,"end":473.694,"text":"因為既然這些養豬協會有這樣的建議就是廚餘不要再養豬因為像我們這一次單一個案的一個廠家就影響到整個全台灣15天淨運淨載也影響到跟豬肉有關的所有的行業所有的產業這個產業大約有2000億的產值"},{"start":478.217,"end":506.358,"text":"所以我既然就是說這個養豬協會有這樣的一個建議那這個農業部的部長也有說要跟環境部這邊再來討論溝通那我想請教部長如果未來當然我們知道現在目前廚餘是直接進到這個焚化爐那這個也不是一個永久之計那未來我們廚餘如果禁止養豬的話如果溝通完之後這個未來的目標是廚餘禁止養豬"},{"start":507.179,"end":535.002,"text":"那你們環境部要怎麼去處理去化這些廚藥包委員那個當然如果說現在全面禁用的話對於我們環境的設施的處理會是一個非常大的壓力但是目前我們也特別也找過專家諮詢會等於焚化爐大概可以接受10%的這個廚藥在裡面如果瀝乾的話日本也是這樣在做的所以理論上10%是可以目前我們如果全面禁用可能很辛苦可能也有一些爭議可能也可以過得了"},{"start":535.402,"end":558.681,"text":"那第二個是有人建議說是不是有點落日可能一年或是一年半那這個就等我們環保設施的量能夠起來這是最好那也有人說家戶廚餘不要進去只事業廚餘進去就好了所以現在其實大概有五六種方案在那邊那這個部分可能要行政院跨部會協調才能夠來解決我們希望盡早在這個禮拜可不可以對外說明有一個結果"},{"start":559.702,"end":575.619,"text":"我希望就是說盡快因為從10月中一直到現在其實一個多月的時間那你除以如果全部都進到這個焚化爐其實造成焚化爐未來可能會有一個很大的傷害所以我希望就是說"},{"start":576.459,"end":598.666,"text":"環境部跟農業部這邊應該要儘速趕快去溝通未來廚餘的去化問題那如果目標未來的目標短程目標或者是遠程目標最終就是廚餘要禁止養豬的話那你們應該也要再去想一下這些廚餘要怎麼去化不要再造成這個像台中市一樣直接把廚餘直接倒到這個坑"},{"start":600.367,"end":614.635,"text":"這個坑裡面去其實這個都造成這個環境二度的一個傷害所以我希望就是說環境部應該要未雨綢繆趕快去想一下未來廚餘要怎麼去化我們現在都在一直在進行兩部在協商當中好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f7810304bb67d1b7a8c298485b48840d78e4d869bc65e346f37e4c19e861c81d6c028e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:40:07 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所以我想要我認為我們現在應該要有一個明確的機制就是說重複的 惡意的這些檢舉只要他今天完成了就是這個重複的檢舉已經確定前面已經不成案了或是調查已經完成了就不要再重啟調查了如果這個形式上面都已經完成了就不要再重複的調查"},{"start":244.537,"end":272.228,"text":"那再來就是說如果我們明知道他的檢舉是缺乏依據可是他還提出來的我們應該要有一個機制應該有一個機制因為現在等於是反正我怎麼樣檢舉都沒有成本那我覺得這個也是不合理的地方那我認為這樣子的我們應該本來就要基於檢舉應有合理基礎的預期才能夠去有效的去減少無理重複惡意的一個檢舉"},{"start":274.313,"end":295.705,"text":"第三個部分 我也要說 被檢舉方老師們在調查程序中應該享有完整的權益保障他有權在 有權陳述他的意見 查看相關證據只要在最後的認定是沒有事實 或者是說不成案的"},{"start":296.866,"end":314.106,"text":"我們應該有個補償機制那這個其實我跟部長也說過了幾次就是說行政應對的費用不管是律師啦交通費訴訟的一些應對支持還有我們不應該只有還給本縫我們應該其他的因為他這段時間停止教學其實他是被迫與無奈所以這個地方也應該要來"},{"start":316.168,"end":341.806,"text":"應該要來回補啦補償他的這個損失然後我們是不是有一個名譽恢復的程序不然就是一個老師在很多這個調查過程之中不僅是面對這個家長面對這些指控這些俄語會口耳相傳那這些名譽的恢復其實是需要來建立的那最後一個是心理諮商的支援"},{"start":344.088,"end":360.302,"text":"其實我想今天這些主張並不是只是應該說今天這些主張其實都是要來去思考說我們如何去創造一個大家都能夠適應適用的一個體制從公平程序正義還有保護教職員的合法權益"},{"start":361.263,"end":375.983,"text":"并且有效的去防范制度被滥用的角度来出发所以一个合理的检举制度一个有利的保障机制一个适当的补偿机制三者相辅相成"},{"start":376.463,"end":400.683,"text":"我们才能够真正打造一个真正有公平有信任有专业的学校治理环境那最后一个小小的补充是我们在学校校师会议的人才资料库这件事情长期以来都有被诟病所以这个部分是不是要怎么样的来去增进加强我们一些不管是儿少表义学儿少权利相关的一些训练"},{"start":401.804,"end":414.232,"text":"我想這個是需要與時俱進而且並且實時更新的才能夠去確保我們找來的一些調查的一些來參與的代表的確有他的專業性跟合理性 謝謝"},{"start":416.923,"end":445.083,"text":"好 我们谢谢张亚林委员那我想我在这边特别谢谢一下我们那个刘淑彬召委那因为本席在这一次的会席当中有把教师荒还有校师会议带到大院然后在总咨询当中来咨询了我们的行政院院长还有部长所以呢这次要开这个我们的公听会非常谢谢我们的刘淑彬委员把这个公听会的时间让我来做安排那现在我们就有请我们刘淑彬召委发言"},{"start":453.772,"end":457.501,"text":"好 謝謝主席那各位官員還有在場的"}]}},{"id":"165766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781030d4abb2997c64aab0652d1d50d7223a569bc65e346f37e4c536dac32b4bbbdb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:14:50 - 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請吳次長及張副局長兩位早我們來立法院備詢如果不在權責範圍內的政策不知道就是不知道 不用硬講"},{"start":24.232,"end":39.148,"text":"如果應該要捍衛國家跟政府的真實的事實該說要距離以真這是我期待我們內閣閣員每一位官員應該做的事情我剛才聽到的哪有開放核實"},{"start":41.468,"end":66.053,"text":"那個是經過幾十萬次檢驗 按照之前的所有的流程然後確認沒有問題 每一件都抽 改成十件抽一 百件抽一到最後採取一般的管理流程 那個不叫開放 那是一個管理的進程如果連這個都沒有辦法當下回應的話 我會覺得非常遺憾請教兩位 第一個高市首相到底做了什麼事情"},{"start":67.455,"end":92.038,"text":"高市首相其實在他們國家非常重要的預算委員會因應因為他們是內閣制在預算委員會的尋討我相信台立之前應該很清楚那個是他們最重要的委員會他們的國會議員要提問是要先送你的提問的提綱給常任官你好搞所以是政府的常任文官你好搞讓官員在那邊回答"},{"start":93.168,"end":114.673,"text":"他回答的是如果中國武力侵犯台灣是否會影響日本的純利事態他們認為中國軍事犯台所以台灣在這邊是當事人我們是受害者那日本認為會影響到他們其實最近的例子就有嘛裴若曦那一次射了11顆導彈有5顆落在日本的經濟水域啊"},{"start":115.453,"end":138.54,"text":"任何一個國家應該對自己的安全進行review就是審視還有因應所以他們認為這適用他們憲法的集體自衛權他講這個話對錯日本人跟日本政府可以去審視至少到目前為止日本的在野黨全部都支持高市早苗不用收回今天早上最新的消息是維新會也支持不收回那他們就過半了喔"},{"start":140.249,"end":152.745,"text":"國會他們是過半支持高設說法而且維新會在關西地區跟年輕世代是很高的支持度那為什麼中國會跳腳到文攻武嚇加經濟脅迫外交部認為為什麼為什麼中國對這件事情"},{"start":156.052,"end":167.798,"text":"安倍當年說過 當然安倍說的時候不是首相啦現在高士說的是一個首相意見並不是內閣一致性意見 這兩個有點不一樣這是首相的政策啦齁你們詮釋他為什麼會這樣跳腳因為"},{"start":172.04,"end":201.096,"text":"中國現在對台灣是有野心的嘛在我們看到現在中國他極力擴張他的軍備他現在的海軍艦艇達到400艘遠遠超過美國的300艘他這一次幾乎經濟利益也不顧了他們尋求外交和緩也不顧了為什麼在這個點上他們要用文攻武嚇那個台灣都承受過了加經濟脅迫你們的判斷是什麼"},{"start":201.618,"end":223.448,"text":"因為我剛才提到說中國對台灣確實是有野心的不過這樣的野心現在經過我們中華民國外交部的努力跟我們政府的努力其實已經越來越不能被世界接受我剛剛講委員你在Facebook上有分享那個聯合國Stefan de la Riviere那個發言人中國記者一直要問他要他重申2758號決議裡面那個台灣屬於中國"},{"start":228.931,"end":251.298,"text":"根本沒有寫到台灣的部分對 沒有錯但我要跟委員報告你去找那一篇那位發言人事實上在過去對台灣的發言人是非常不友善的從過去不友善到今天那個發言人以往其實對我們沒有好眼色過可是他這次他就不願意但是你沒有回答問題我還是照順序來來 國安局你們的分析評估為什麼中國這一次會極力的要去阻止這個點是"},{"start":253.559,"end":277.457,"text":"包委員因為中國一直把台灣當成他核心利益中的利益所以他對於有關於台海的這個發言的話格外的重視所以這個部分等於是他們會認為觸犯他的紅線其實他的紅線是什麼剛才之前我聽吳次長的答詢你其實有講過答案對中國來講他希望把台灣變成內部"},{"start":279.698,"end":296.53,"text":"內部事務圍起來打外界都不要干涉因為他們視台灣為內部事務你剛才講就像香港一旦成為中國的內部事務外人就難以插手一旦外人難以插手加上日本"},{"start":297.27,"end":314.208,"text":"以他集體自衛權表達介入的可能性歷次的兵推日本光開放機場跟幫助美軍加油中國在兵推對盟軍最嚴格的條件對中國最寬鬆的條件兵推中國沒有贏過半次"},{"start":315.899,"end":339.833,"text":"中國武力犯台要欺負台灣要糟蹋我們的國家在歷次的兵推不管你看美國CSIS的或者是在日本的前兩年的兵推用最對盟軍最嚴格的條件比方說規定他的這個某些飛彈不能攻擊艦艇比如說台灣的部隊都沒有動作用最嚴格的條件日方只提供加油"},{"start":342.135,"end":366.415,"text":"共軍其實犯台在兵退裡面是沒有贏過的所以在這兩個前提下中國當然要跳腳他希望阻止台灣成為國際利益的核心他希望阻止各國民主盟友對台海發生軍事衝突展現積極的態度對他來講他等於是失去武力犯台的機會對台灣來講你們認為這是安全的提升還是安全的下降"},{"start":367.912,"end":393.452,"text":"包委員 針對日本等於是高盛內閣這次提的安保的一個要提升它的一個自衛能量那因為這本於就是美日同盟的一個概念他們是有安保條例的所以其實從這個角度來看有助於美盟在印太地區區域的能力的提升這個區域的穩定"},{"start":393.912,"end":420.505,"text":"和平式提升 因為大家談這個問題我特別很遺憾 我看到我們國內有些人講日本講這個話 無視深坡無視深坡的是中國中國用他的軍事力量呈現在第一島鏈從菲律賓去撞人家的海巡艇到台海天天惹事 到東海 到黃海甚至於到紐澳的外海在今年二月實彈演習是中國的軍力投射"},{"start":421.755,"end":439.043,"text":"aggressive他這種挑釁的外擴視的一種侵略行為對整個區域造成不穩定所以這個叫做rebalance如果有各國重視這邊讓他再平衡當然對區域安全有提升幫助很多人"},{"start":440.043,"end":463.097,"text":"不敢公開講說自己是站在中共那一邊就講說日本這個是惹事他忘了如果有一個鄰居一天到晚拿棍子要打你的家人這時候有社區巡守隊有好鄰居有警察出來說不可以這樣子喔這樣的話影響到我們的安寧我們要出來介入的時候你竟然去罵那個巡守隊去罵那個警察罵那個鄰居不敢去譴責那個惡霸區域惡霸"},{"start":467.245,"end":492.252,"text":"這已經不是偽善了 這叫為虎作倉你們贊不贊成這種說法我們對於有助於英泰的一個區域安全穩定和平 這我們都非常樂見所以我回到外交部剛有聽到一些問題 我還是很遺憾就是說國內有些像馬英九這樣的人竟然說台灣跟中國是自己的內部的事 外人不要插手這是陷台灣於險境"},{"start":494.417,"end":509.686,"text":"一旦中國達成這個指標全世界都不要插手了反而是最容易引戰的時候台灣反而最危險而且對後代子孫是非常的不公平不正義台灣是國際的一份子台灣被"},{"start":510.566,"end":538.734,"text":"攻擊也好被中國這樣的武力霸凌也好會影響國際利益加上我們提升自我防衛能量這才是真正的和平之道嘛所以我要請教市長剛才有提說哎呀這一次賴清德總統吃這個壽司吃個壽司我看那個也就是旋轉壽司那個意見一堆有好朋友說了對安全提升的話不管他是有意或者是出於日本自己國家利益作為鄰居"},{"start":540.325,"end":568.508,"text":"我們發聲做正面的回應日本人我看了所有的主流媒體NHK 讀麥 美日新聞 產經新聞共同社日本電視台 富士電視台 全部都報導啊那一則的瀏覽量有兩千萬啊剛剛有一題你沒有回答 你們有下廣告嗎是你用外宣的嗎我們已經沒有錢做外宣了根本就沒有錢做外宣了嘛我剛才聽到有委員在那邊問你們是不是花錢他忘了錢是被他們自己刪掉的"},{"start":570.066,"end":599.407,"text":"外宣的錢都沒有了 竟然還在質疑說你們花錢買媒體 外銷轉內銷一個鄰國為了台灣安全正被中國霸凌完全站在中國的角度說台灣不要出聲音 我們不要跟著惹事這樣以後誰要幫你然後呢 明明日本的主流媒體報導兩千多萬次的這個瀏覽還要說我們這個是外銷轉內銷沒有吧 你們沒有任何宣傳費用了啊"},{"start":600.342,"end":626.871,"text":"我們現在沒有在做這方面宣傳因為國際自動就會站在我們這邊不要說自動啦 我剛才其實台日協可以站出來幫忙講就幫忙講日本的主流媒體都有報導日本民眾的關注度很高啊然後還要再用二戰的戰敗國幫中國去羞辱日本幫中國主張武力可以直接打他 恐嚇日本中國這麼做我不意外"},{"start":627.793,"end":650.618,"text":"我們在台灣該採取這個立場嗎何況當時聯合國創立一開始過渡時期是這一些發起戰爭國如果再重啟侵略戰爭常任國可以直接軍事發動軍事攻擊不用經過安理會授權後來在50 60年代這些二戰的戰敗國都成為聯合國會員國之後這個過渡條款基本上不用了"},{"start":651.158,"end":679.133,"text":"在1995年聯合國大會當時中國也投贊成票認為這一個條款所謂的可以直接制裁的條款已經過時並不適用我印象當年的表決是第50條第52條這個條款已經作廢不用了那現在中國還拿出來拿出來他也曉得不好意思後來有下架換小粉紅去弄我希望我們台灣的政界不要成為小粉紅去幫忙引用這一條人家在"},{"start":680.39,"end":698.599,"text":"日本有權利去檢視他的安全事務而他檢視過程當中如果剛好對我們有利 給予好鄰居我們發個聲幫忙 理所當然我們沒有要介入任何糾紛任何認為是台灣或日本引起糾紛的都忘了一個核心命題 那就是"},{"start":699.861,"end":723.062,"text":"中國才是這整個區域不安的麻煩製造者他才是源頭他不要去軍事想要打台灣想要弄菲律賓想要去弄日本哪有集體自衛權大家那個國防預算的GDP佔比都可以再降一點啦問題是他每一年7%的成長超過8兆的投資對周邊國家形成壓力源頭不檢討檢討受害者"},{"start":725.438,"end":750.396,"text":"我相信在歐盟 我最近看歐盟的會議都在講檢討受害者其實是幫獨裁者擦脂抹粉我時間到 我提醒外交部跟國安局研究兩個事情 三個事情這一次高市期真正重要的是在2026年開始啟動對話2026年年底要完成三個安保文件的修正從2015年安倍修改他們的安保法"},{"start":753.601,"end":768.99,"text":"這個限於防衛開始採取主動積極那這一次高市早苗啟動的修正有三個方向我們要去思考第一個他要建構一個區域的安全防衛網絡那台灣跟這個網絡其實是核心命題"},{"start":770.03,"end":794.598,"text":"卻因為外交關係我們不容易在這裡面有角色我們既是核心命題又陷於地緣政治的局限台灣怎麼樣跟這一個安全網絡建構這牽涉到第一島鏈到第二島鏈第二個事情高市有要檢討所謂的放寬防衛軍備的這個出口以及防衛軍備的合作"},{"start":795.646,"end":813.924,"text":"那台灣在他旁邊我們長期民間就有工業合作甚至有些軍民通的就是商業跟軍用共用的一些技術日本跟台灣的工業界都有在合作那怎麼樣在這個軍備合作或軍備輸出的情形上"},{"start":814.785,"end":832.053,"text":"對台灣尋求最大利益最後一個是C2的一體化也就是指管系統一體化日本已經要跟美國指管系統一體化那台灣要不要指管系統一體化情報分享即時化這個是由印太司令部"},{"start":833.201,"end":843.418,"text":"還有日本還有韓國都有提出來這對台灣國安局跟外交部外交部也許不管指管但國安局應該要跟國防部進行研究以上三個建議給各位 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謝謝部長的說明其實部長說的已經非常非常清楚了國籍法裡面的精神就是說如果你持有外國國籍就是代表你效忠的是他國嘛那在台灣來說要效忠中華民國台灣當然就是要有我國的國籍並且不可以同時擁有他國的國籍"},{"start":171.676,"end":185.511,"text":"更何況你扶的是台灣的公職對台灣當然要有效忠的義務認為這個精神是非常非常清楚的我也不希望說到時候立法院修出一個讓特定的國家的國民擁有特權在台灣可以擔任公職這樣的結果"},{"start":189.435,"end":212.149,"text":"那所以我在這邊想要建議其實地制法76條裡面有提到說如果縣市政府辦理的自治事項違背憲法法律或是基於法律授權的法規那我們中央的主管機關可以來撤銷變更或廢止其執行所以我希望的是如果到時候繼續用這樣的方式走下去我們內政部就用地制法76條的方式來處理讓它予以解職"},{"start":215.911,"end":227.981,"text":"在這邊建議我們內政部直接可以這樣處理是謝謝委員的指教我們會來嚴厲辦理好謝謝部長那再來我們部長請留著那我們也請伯父"},{"start":229.178,"end":253.545,"text":"那再來提到這個安全指引這個小局書我認為你們現在用普發的方式是非常好的光是讓大家看到知道什麼是小局書有討論度讓全民就有更深層的意識我覺得這就是一個很大的進步那當然在這個過程當中也有很多民間的指教包括說有一些委員說印這個手冊是浪費錢然後還說印手冊比國軍加薪重要嗎甚至有"},{"start":258.567,"end":287.75,"text":"有人说是不是你们印这个只是让大家当成废纸我们伯父在这边可不可以再跟大家讲一下为什么印这个普发的手册这么重要甚至我们也不断的提醒说民间的声音是要更广泛的来发放是谢谢委员的指导我想安全指引的手册在全球来讲是一个趋势尤其是我们现在看到全球富二世灾难不管是地震海啸或是这个台风"},{"start":288.494,"end":295.963,"text":"這個天災的意外頻傳所以在這種情況下全球也是在推展這樣子的一個小冊子讓所有全民"},{"start":296.465,"end":322.615,"text":"在平常時間就知道如何避難那有所準備才有安全那在這種情況下呢更加的凸顯台灣在這個手冊上的重要性因為我們可以看到近期我們國家不管是南部的水災或者是花蓮的驗射服事件那這個都代表極端氣候下平常我們就應該要有這樣子避難的一個準備工作所以這個小冊子就是要提醒"},{"start":323.295,"end":331.079,"text":"全民能夠自己保障自己的安全知道如何的去避難我想這是一個非常好的方式好 謝謝伯父所以我在這邊想要請你們多宣導的是既然你們發了就要去發揮它的正面價值要不斷的去宣導說為什麼要用紙本為什麼要發放這個小冊子而不是讓這些網路上的假訊息這一些謠言甚至質疑的聲音越來越大這個非常非常重要"},{"start":352.048,"end":377.494,"text":"因為更有準備本來就是對國民是大家互相加強能力讓大家自己變強甚至是讓大家更有韌性的一個非常好的方式怎麼想都是正面的效果才對怎麼會有這一些莫名其妙的質疑而是全球當全世界所有國家幾乎所有國家都在努力的加強自己的防衛意識的時候偏偏我國有人在唱衰自己"},{"start":378.314,"end":393.882,"text":"我不希望這樣的事情繼續發生那所以呢這本小冊子裡面我想要比較要這邊要提醒的幾個事情喔第一個就是說這個裡面其實也有提到說這些假訊息到底要怎麼防護但是我認為提供的這些資訊還不夠"},{"start":395.103,"end":407.988,"text":"所以我在這邊要建議的就是說接下來啊不管像我們花蓮這個顏色湖發生事情的時候或是所有的天災人禍然後或者是未來遇到一些戰時的準備其實這些假訊息都會非常氾濫那他們都會透過特定的一些APP例如說抖音啊這種小紅書上面的這種氾濫的訊息更多尤其多尤其是他就是來自境外敵對勢力的平台"},{"start":421.374,"end":429.718,"text":"所以像這樣子的平台你們到底如果到時候不管災時還是戰時發生這些問題然後假訊息在這些平台氾濫的時候你們有什麼準備所以委員這個是我們平常在錯假峻襲防範上來講或是認知作戰我們國防部在這方面有專制單位來負責"},{"start":440.543,"end":445.706,"text":"那至於說委員的建議就是說未來的錯假訊息或是認知貨站是否納入到全民的安全指引手冊呢這都是納入到我們後續在製作新版的時候下一個版本的時候我們會收集很多意見像比如自小我們都會在這方面來去去的來求教所有"},{"start":459.515,"end":462.836,"text":"給我們所有做的好的建議好 謝謝伯父那最後兩個小問題請教我們內政部劉部長因為其實手冊裡面有提到說如果網路或是通訊中斷的時候呢我們可以用廣播來獲得資訊可是其實我收到非常多的民眾陳情說因為我們現在很多廣播是空屏導致說很容易被尤其中國很近他們的會干擾"},{"start":483.482,"end":506.019,"text":"所以很常聽到的是中國來的一些廣播的聲音所以像這個空瓶被干擾或者是被取代這樣的狀況是不是你們有一些研究以及預防才不會說明明更關鍵的時刻是透過廣播來接受資訊可是卻因為空瓶然後早就已經被中國的這個蓋瓶的方式早就蓋瓶過去了報告委員這個部分我們大概有意識到這樣的狀況"},{"start":507.6,"end":530.323,"text":"所以我們才會說用這個發放紙本的方式讓大家知道說真正的頻道我們在這裡面都有寫是以這個警察廣播電台或者是我們國家的一個公用頻道為主然後才有正確的訊息尤其是如果手機離線的狀態之下所以其實提供正確的資訊管道非常非常重要不要到時候這些連我們的廣播都被干擾"},{"start":531.164,"end":540.299,"text":"好那以上這個當然我希望你們要不斷的推廣這本書讓大家知道保護自己的安全守護自己的國家守護自己的社區非常重要謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17064","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eafc2a62a6cd662d9e22ccee7bee9a5a1385db5c09cad80ab762cc4351b305e31d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、國防部部長就「普發新版臺灣全民安全指引如何提升全民安全意識之政策效益評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請行政院主計總處派員列席備詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-24T08:35:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-24T11:27:00+08:00","duration":10319,"影片長度":"02:51:59","委員發言時間":"08:35:01 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請主任秘書報告初期人數現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1893.533,"end":1909.174,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期內政委員會第十一次全體委員會議事錄時間一百十四年十一月二十日星期四上午九時至十二時四分地點紅樓二零二會議室初席委員蘇巧慧委員等十三人列席委員葉元之委員等九人"},{"start":1909.714,"end":1925.74,"text":"请下委员黄建斌委员一人列席官员海洋委员会主任委员管并临继相关人员主席王昭吉委员委员美会报告事项一宣读上次会议实录决定确定二邀请海洋委员会主任委员率同所属列席报告业务概况并被质询"},{"start":1926.38,"end":1951.44,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲報告委員蘇巧慧等16人質詢分別由海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲及相關人員答覆說明決定一登記發言委員除不在場則外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員高金素梅黃建斌徐副委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1953.537,"end":1979.714,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏無錯誤議事錄確定那現在繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請內政部部長國防部部長就普發新版台灣全民安全指引如何提升全民安全意識之政策效益評估進行專題報告並被質詢另請行政院主計總處派員列席備詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1981.857,"end":2003.2,"text":"好現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員來為介紹我們的王美惠召委蘇巧惠委員黃婕黃婕委員出去啊那個張志文委員"},{"start":2008.976,"end":2036.814,"text":"那現在介紹列席的官員有內政部部長劉思芳劉部長民政司司長鄭英宏行政區化科科長嚴信吉議政司司長沈哲芳警政署副署長廖訓成首長劉安傑"},{"start":2040.545,"end":2069.67,"text":"組長陳炯志消防署副署長馮俊毅國防部經政副部長柏宏輝組織局處長陳偉炎陳慧婷全民防衛動員署副署長兼執行長林淳梅"},{"start":2075.287,"end":2077.589,"text":"物力動員處處長沈威智後備責務部參謀長薛淵全行政組紀總處專務委員吳明修那現在進現在請我們內政部劉世芳部長報告"},{"start":2113.367,"end":2140.22,"text":"周圍各位委員大家早感謝各位委員對於全民防衛任性工作的重視與支持今天內政部就普發新版台灣全民安全指引如何提升全民安全意識議題向各位委員進行專題報告以下為簡單的口頭報告第一強化社會整體任性提升全民面對危機的應變能力是國家安全的基石"},{"start":2140.94,"end":2160.094,"text":"本次將原來國防部的全民國防手冊改版為台灣全民安全指引目的就是在於針對天災疫病極端氣候乃至敵人侵略等挑戰提供民眾平時的準備與災時的應變資訊達到有準備更安全的政策目標"},{"start":2161.075,"end":2181.62,"text":"那參考捷克瑞典等國的經驗普發實體紙本這是因為考量國內部分高齡民眾並不熟悉線上下載而且災時可能面臨斷網停電等極端情況普發紙本是確保資訊的普及性降低數位落差的必要作為第二"},{"start":2182.08,"end":2197.595,"text":"指引內容與推廣的重點一災害應變與自救互助方面針對地震颱風包括晏曬湖等常見的災害安全指引內部內提供應變資訊與緊急避難包準備的清單"},{"start":2198.756,"end":2221.242,"text":"那內政部的消防署將持續利用多元社群媒體發布應變圖卡與懶人包並且在消防防災一點通APP中納入安全指引那內政部也規劃在明年115年度在該APP增列離線下載的功能確保民眾在斷網情況之下仍然能夠獲取關鍵的資訊"},{"start":2223.342,"end":2248.072,"text":"第二警報識別與防空避難為了確保極端狀況來臨時能夠迅速避難安全指引內明確說明了警報特徵並且協助民眾區分防空警報與海嘯警報的差異並且依照各式災害說明民眾在平時以及危機時的建議行動並且鼓勵民眾平時及做好準備防患未然"},{"start":2248.712,"end":2271.434,"text":"安全指引內也提供了警政服務APP及消防防災一點通APP的QR code平時可先行下載APP 熟悉周邊避難處所並且在手機儲存離線地圖以備不時之需當民眾收到國家級警報簡訊的時候點擊網址即可自動定位並且顯示附近的避難處所"},{"start":2272.455,"end":2289.83,"text":"另外 安全指引中也提示地下優於地上 室內優於室外的避難原則第三 守護家園需要你和我安全指引中續名了義警 義交 民防等的加入管道鼓勵民眾積極投入相關民防工作"},{"start":2290.35,"end":2309.022,"text":"另外替代役是災害防救體系當中的重要人力的資源備役役男將按其專長納入勤務編組我們規劃辦理初級救護員也就是EMT-1的繼續教育治安維護組訓練等等在持續強化其防救災的專業能力"},{"start":2310.723,"end":2336.602,"text":"第三 普發作業與經費行政院在114年10月23日核定國防部114年台灣全民安全指引普發計畫由國防部負責印製內政部則協助配合將安全指引送達至各家戶安全指引已從114年11月19日開始發送預計在明年也就是115年1月5日完成"},{"start":2337.102,"end":2346.934,"text":"若有民眾未能領取可向公所或村里長反映補發本次補發計畫之發送作業費及分擔費用共計21717800元由本部的預算來支應有關結語的部分"},{"start":2352.74,"end":2379.397,"text":"本次普發工作是政府強化社會整體韌性落實全民防衛的重要環節安全指引系參考捷克瑞典芬蘭等國家的做法其能有效提升民眾在緊急或極端危機下的判斷力與自救互助能力以上簡單報告那同時呢因為有委員希望我們可以把這個警政跟消防的APP把它放出來我想我們在內政委員會的這個"},{"start":2382.799,"end":2410.41,"text":"網路裡面把它用一個非常簡單的方式跟大家明示一下請幫我放一下好嗎可不可以轉換一下請各位看一下這是非常簡單的部分就是我們用頁面的方式來處理就是進入警政服務APP會點選防空避難專區那如果各位的手機裡面有GPS的功能的話就會把附近的幾個防空避難設施的點設計出來"},{"start":2411.69,"end":2420.355,"text":"所以根據一進入警政服務APP點選防空避難專區然後二點選防空避難設施三這會顯示避難設施的資訊包括他的路線規劃然後可以開始導航這是警政的部分那第二個呢消防防災一點通也是一樣他首頁裡面的點擊進去地圖以後他就會把旁邊的這個防災圖台把它顯示出來然後根據這個防災圖台用這個AR導"},{"start":2439.827,"end":2467.198,"text":"消防防災一點通的AR導航就可以知道目前手機也就是人所持的所在地附近的一個可以收容安置或是撤離疏散的地點那因為這個是屬於這個內政委員會的報告那沒有辦法用實體的操作那我們就用這樣的方式簡單的跟委員做一個簡單的報告以上的報告請各位委員多多指教謝謝好謝謝劉部長接下來我們請國防部博副部長洪輝報告"},{"start":2474.182,"end":2501.291,"text":"趙偉 各位委員先進感謝大院委員會對於台灣全民安全指引普發作業的關心與指導國防部於日前9月16號發布新版的全民國防手冊也就是當危機來臨時台灣全民安全的指引為主軸我們的主軸是有準備更安全的行動理念其內容是希望能夠達到"},{"start":2503.937,"end":2521.06,"text":"淺顯易懂的方式來編寫那我們主要普發的目的有以下幾個說明第一強化全民的安全意識這次我們是首次來推出紙本的實體的普發那普及率我們希望能夠達到全民"},{"start":2522.078,"end":2551.111,"text":"能够都拥有一侧能够做参考那第二项是有关于积极收整社会的回馈意见我们对于所普发的效果还有未来的回馈意见呢我们都采取普发和并行的方式来进行我们希望能够在所谓的安全指引降低数位落差的确保极端情况下都能够立即的发挥我们全部"},{"start":2551.903,"end":2555.133,"text":"國防安全手冊的這個效益第三個我們是強調是與國際來接軌現在我們"},{"start":2559.347,"end":2586.013,"text":"包括捷克法國瑞典芬蘭愛沙尼亞以及立陶宛等國家呢都已經規劃了類似於我們國家的全民安全手冊的指引那麼其目的也就是希望能夠藉由這個方式能夠提醒在所有全民不管是在災變或是有任何的危難緊急情況發生的時候全民有一個方式來做一個避難或是一個"},{"start":2589.858,"end":2609.367,"text":"指引的方式那这都是一个要提升全社会防疫任性的一个最基本的一个要件补发的规划至于说印刷的数量我想大家都非常清楚也就是一万一千万本包含了十万五千本的英语版那另外在"},{"start":2610.214,"end":2626.089,"text":"印制费用来讲的话我们是依照国防法的预算法的第70条申请第二预备金因为我们过去原来在9月份的时候我们希望普发5000但是呢在规模上来讲我们提升到1100万本的时候呢"},{"start":2628.615,"end":2656.074,"text":"我們發現到這個經費遠遠不足所以我們申請依照預算法第七條我們申請第二預備金來支應總計是新台幣4279萬餘元那安全指引的效益評估呢就本身來講我們希望強化全面安全意識提升國家的韌性另外剛才所提到與國際來接軌那這些都是我們在未來在普發以後希望"},{"start":2656.764,"end":2677.88,"text":"能夠藉由這種追蹤所有的效果能不能達到他的充分準備那我想這一份手冊是一個長期且必要的公共投資那普發計畫將確保每一個家戶都能夠得到安全的指引提供民眾危機應變的資訊進而提升全民國防安全及防災的意識以強化社會的防衛人性以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2688.903,"end":2705.474,"text":"謝謝博副部長現在進行詢答那委員質詢前原力做幾點宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本委員會委員五分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員五分鐘那早上10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2715.748,"end":2744.094,"text":"第二今天的臨時提案截止提出時間是10點30分與本會委員會答詢完畢後處理請各位委員有沒有意見那現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇喬會委員發言"},{"start":2756.311,"end":2764.65,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長還有國防部我們的伯父部長 共同上台請內政部 國防部"},{"start":2766.044,"end":2791.053,"text":"委員早部長早 副部長早我們今天要討論的是這個剛剛普發的這個台灣全民安全指引這一本書那我們很希望能夠了解它的目的 過程以及效益好 那在這個過程當中我第一個想確認一下剛剛兩位都有上台報告所以在這一本安全指引的分工上面我是不是可以簡單認為這本書主要的編撰負責其實是國防部"},{"start":2795.675,"end":2799.057,"text":"但內政部其實是作為一個最重要的諮詢參考機關以及如何發送到全台灣各家各戶的手上我這樣認知的分工兩個部門這樣對嗎兩個部會我想委員講的正確包括行政院跟國安會都有指導"},{"start":2816.064,"end":2819.467,"text":"好那在這樣簡單在這樣的過程當中我等一下的問題就會依照這樣的分工來請教兩位所以我先各請教一下請問副部長國防部我們博副部長這本書的目的你檢答一下好不好委員我剛才非常清楚也就是說因應這個天然災害對天然災害複合式災難發生的時候複合式災難尤其是比如說像花蓮艷澀湖事件都是一個在複合式災難裡面所"},{"start":2845.708,"end":2850.11,"text":"簡單講就是為了天災人禍的時候讓大家知道面對天災人禍人怎麼做好準備社會怎麼做好準備是這樣子的一個讓社會增加韌性這樣的狀況來 部長請問一下劉部長請問一下我們平常內政部過去有單獨的地震指引消防指引這樣子的狀況嗎也有對不對我們以前大概都是透過這個網站上面來宣傳其實也都有對不對"},{"start":2875.663,"end":2896.245,"text":"但是我們覺得這個宣導性仍然會存在有數位落差沒有錯所以如果大家在數大家上網去看其實不管是在這個地震指引啊或者是防空指引或者是消防指引其實都有但這一本安全指引就是把它合而為一讓大家手上一本可以看到幾乎所有的天災人禍"},{"start":2898.087,"end":2905.134,"text":"到底我們要怎麼面對所以這主要是這樣的一本書我認為利益良善啊而且如果從剛剛兩位的報告當中從編轉加發送這樣全部的經費發送下來計算下來之後"},{"start":2913.562,"end":2925.917,"text":"如果家戶都能夠拿到這樣一本合而為一的災難準備的安全指引守則其實一個家戶大概是六到七塊錢其實是很划算這樣的狀況如果大家能夠熟讀讓整個社會知道"},{"start":2929.341,"end":2941.613,"text":"面對災難你要怎麼做這其實一戶一家一戶六到七元我認為其實是划算的好 可是那我現在就伯父部長我想請教你的部分就是你這個在面對天災人禍的時候你還分成了平時就是災難還沒有來的時候和災難來了以後這樣子的狀況來做邊轉"},{"start":2951.462,"end":2955.284,"text":"我認為這個相當不錯 而且呢現在這本新版的守則裡面比起舊版的過去這個條列式這樣非常教科書的狀況現在改成了插畫的漫畫式的這樣的圖式等等其實是讓大家比較好吸收你看左邊的是過去舊版的現在新版的這個部分其實是容易掌握很多可是"},{"start":2974.312,"end":2976.274,"text":"我覺得天災人禍平時暫時你都分通得很好但你看這本書發送下來以後社會這次有在討論實質內容嗎比起2023年大家討論實質內容編轉得如何這次大家討論的是如何"},{"start":2989.79,"end":3006.196,"text":"其實我看到很多說法這次的說法最主要這本書發了以後是明年要打仗還是浪費公帑這個安全指引發送了就某程度宣布了台灣現在很危險準備要打仗了不投降 甚至還有一種說法是不投降從來都不是一個負責任的政府該做的甚至有人是拍下了照片說手冊已經是被當成廢紙丟到回收桶了"},{"start":3017.775,"end":3033.124,"text":"現在這本安全指引守則剛剛大家已經說了這是把過去所有的指引合而為一來面對天災人禍的總準備這樣的一本書可是現在坊間的說法是這樣請問國防部你對坊間現在這樣的輿論你有什麼回應你做了什麼報告員我想我們社會大眾對於我們這樣子守則的發放有很多的指教和批評那我們國防部在"},{"start":3047.222,"end":3061.57,"text":"意見中整上來講我們都會收整相關的意見作為下次的改進的一個參考那另外我必須要強調今天外面坊間所說的災難發生的時候或者是說你今天會有其他的"},{"start":3062.455,"end":3082.846,"text":"作战的这种想定的这种情况我想在我们今天面对一个强敌的一个情况之下我们任何的情况都必须要去做预先的推演那我们也是模仿现在俄乌战争以后在欧洲的这些国家他先进的国家也依照这个方法来制定他全民防卫手册的一个"},{"start":3083.345,"end":3089.35,"text":"全民防衛任性的一個要求所以我們比照這種精神和國際接軌也同時製定了這一本我尊重你的專業我也覺得你用心良苦利益良善編串這一本這本的內容我贊成但是我正是認為你的這本內容裡面少了你現在我質詢你的這個部分就是在平時面對錯假訊息你要怎麼處理什麼是錯假訊息我來看到縱觀全本守則裡面"},{"start":3113.189,"end":3127.142,"text":"其實這就只有19和20是在討論資訊的部分而且在平時對資訊的部分就只有第9頁啊這平時對資訊的部分你目前談的只有資安但沒有如何面對錯假訊息"},{"start":3128.303,"end":3132.627,"text":"而你現在第一步被面對的就是你這本指引出來就已經被攻擊成這是一本要宣誓作戰這是一本需要可以丟到回收桶這樣的狀況了這就是不正確的訊息嘛這跟剛剛我們上台在講這是一本教台灣人民面對天災人禍的時候最好的指引那你沒有回應啊部長 副部長對不起我們請讓劉部長上台一下"},{"start":3155.68,"end":3161.003,"text":"部長我知道內容不是你編轉的但是因為你平常比較常面對錯假訊息所以如果是您的話內政部來講的話當你做出一本這樣的指引卻有這麼多的錯假訊息出來的時候內政部假設如果是你負責的話你會怎麼做報告委員我相信提供這樣子的錯誤訊息的人可能不是在台灣出生長大"},{"start":3176.372,"end":3202.615,"text":"因為大家都知道台灣每一年的地震或者是天災包括現在大家看到了這麼多天災的狀況之下你要不要了解一下身處台灣這樣子多災多難的一個國家我們要不要看一下裡面的內容所以我覺得提供這個訊息的要不要就是公主病要不要王子病他可能是在無城市長大的所以無論怎麼樣所有台灣的人都不是公主也不是王子我希望先看一下內容再決定要不要丟到回收桶"},{"start":3202.935,"end":3206.498,"text":"好 我們謝謝主席今天給我們這麼好的一個機會讓大家真正的來展示來了解一下這一本台灣全民安全指引裡面的內容到底在說什麼這是一本讓全國民眾了解天災人禍的時候你要怎麼做平時準備和災難來臨時的準備這不是一本宣告戰爭的書我認為國防部你作為一個主責單位"},{"start":3230.094,"end":3233.055,"text":"其實第一 在內容裡面應該要增設台灣社會對錯假訊息的準備這是第一點第二 即便在這個第一版反正你還會有好幾版嘛在這一版裡面如果沒有提到那你現在在態度上 在行動上你就應該要來面對當這本書發行之後的錯假訊息你要大大的公佈啊"},{"start":3252.56,"end":3265.986,"text":"我期待今天的這個詢答的過程其實是你最好發揮的時候希望國防部內政部及相關單位能夠利用今天的詢答把這本安全指引到底目的是什麼報告全部台灣社會謝謝好謝謝蘇巧慧委員的詢詢接下來請張志榮委員發言"},{"start":3280.814,"end":3303.389,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請由內政部劉四方部長以及國防部的博副部長請劉部長及博副部長張委員早好 我先請教博部長部長早 今天我們大家討論的是這本最近很紅的這個"},{"start":3305,"end":3323.421,"text":"小局書喔來討論這個當危機來臨時喔台灣全民安全指引那我想要先請教的一個部分喔就這一本喔我裡面所拿到的是好像是第一版的內容喔裡面沒有這個賴總統的簽名那在第一版的部分喔"},{"start":3323.837,"end":3349.683,"text":"他是發行的5000份那今天討論的是這個第二版的部分就是國防部用了4279萬元然後印製了1100萬本決定要發到各家各戶我想要請教為什麼會有兩個不同的版本那為什麼第一版的時候當時賴清德總統沒有簽名那第二版的時候後來賴總統才想說要簽名要多印這麼多份"},{"start":3351.026,"end":3365.495,"text":"關於我們在九月份的時候我們印製五千本的時候這個時候我們在所有跨部會在討論的時候大家就建議因為我們總統有成立在去年全社會防疫任期的委員會"},{"start":3366.601,"end":3395.007,"text":"那在裡面呢大家也提到全民國防這個手冊那為什麼第一版的時候當時是忘記簽名還是忘記印了嗎因為我們當時的時候我們討論目前是我們國防部由行政院下售給我們來做指導然後來做那後來我們在九月份以後大家發現這個忘記簽名了不是獲得大家的好評好我幫你唸一下其實這個副部長你這邊有寫他說因為你們"},{"start":3395.738,"end":3424.601,"text":"覺得內容淺顯易懂的方式來編寫並搭配視覺吸睛的設計風格深獲各界的正面肯定與迴響希望索取或授權印製紙本這是你們內部寫的所以我認為這就是國防部的馬屁文化所以我希望說這種馬屁文化大可不必我們推出這本小局書的主要目的就像剛剛劉思芳部長講的我們是為了防災讓全民在受到災難"},{"start":3425.543,"end":3437.499,"text":"或是未來可能的戰爭風險的時候必須要有充足的準備所以我需要說未來要發這本冊子的時候可以一次性的整體的把內容都給確定之後"},{"start":3438.018,"end":3458.195,"text":"再來做發放那第二個我也要請教在第一次發放的時候是五千多份第二次我們花了這個人民的納稅錢六千四百五十萬來發放這樣的資料那用動用的是第二預備金那動用第二預備金我相信不管是很多的委員或是大家很狐疑的是為什麼要動用第二預備金不能難道"},{"start":3459.807,"end":3484.062,"text":"我們的發放不僅是簽名忘了簽連預算都忘了編嗎為什麼不用我們的一般的預算來去做發放要用第二預備金因為大家都知道說第二預備金是在有些臨時的情況或者是災難發生的時候才會用第二預備金那一般預算也好經過立法院來審查用第二預備金的時候很多時候立法院是無法審查的是不是可以請部長回答"},{"start":3485.224,"end":3508.901,"text":"因為我們第一次在印製5000本的時候事實上來講那個時候我們有編列預算來做印製那後來我們要決定這個效果非常好的時候我們要增加的時候我們發現到我們自己本身在年度預算不足所以我們才依照預算法第70條我們來申請第二餘倍金好 希望說這個就是那以後未來你們的做法會是什麼樣的做法"},{"start":3509.707,"end":3527.185,"text":"如果這個我們在發放以後我們事實上我們會做追蹤和管考如果這個效果很好如果這個在未來來講有需求那我們國防部會循正確的這個編列預算方式來做執行好 謝謝副部長那接下來我請劉施放部長"},{"start":3531.155,"end":3555.465,"text":"部長好我這個小局書裡面的內容本席有努力認真去研讀那裡面的APP我都有下載那當然在下載這些APP的時候我們有發現裡面兩個最希望大家去下載的APP一個是警政系統的APP另外一個是消防系統的APP可是我們在看到的時候當然很多人在請教的就是說第一個"},{"start":3556.289,"end":3580.36,"text":"這樣警政APP它是沒有離線地圖功能的那消防系統是有離線地圖功能的那當然在使用上會有大家認為有些好使用一些不好使用的一個部分可是我認為裡面資訊當然有一些正確與否或是兩個APP裡面內容有關於避難收容人數不一致的一個部分我想是不是部長這邊有了解相關的情形那未來要如何來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":3581.943,"end":3599.697,"text":"好謝謝我想是不是請警察就像我剛剛這裡面有一個對有一個是收容像我們立法院隔壁有一個收容處是可以收容1416人那另外一個APP裡面只有說可以收容645人那這樣的問題可是有一定的標準我是請他們很簡單跟委員會問一下好請簡單說明一下"},{"start":3604.868,"end":3626.011,"text":"跟委員報告一下 這個是我們警政APP它的一個防空避難的一個處所 它裡面跟消防的這一個比如說那個在內部某一個地點 它可能是消防組的它是用經緯度所以它會弄 那邊有兩個避難處所 它可能同一個經緯度 它就變成一個"},{"start":3626.704,"end":3640.421,"text":"那我們是兩個避難處所所以這裡面統計出來的容納人數就會不一樣可是就我而言容納人數是應該是這個大樓他的面積能容納的人數好像跟經緯度我不知道關聯性在哪裡"},{"start":3642.625,"end":3659.512,"text":"那就是說這個防空避難室的這個設置是依照建築技術規則設置而來所以建築技術規則在核准這個住宅裡面它的地下室可以容納多少人的時候它這個資料就會給我們這一個轄區的警察單位來列管它的防空避難室"},{"start":3659.972,"end":3679.241,"text":"那這個部分我簡單講實際的關係那現在的差異數到底是要用警政還是用消防的不管委員我來回應一下好了就是警政跟消防系統他們所用的參數不一樣所以答案會不一樣一個不是用同一套標準一個有點位一個就是用那個地方的警政系統去做處理"},{"start":3679.901,"end":3705.427,"text":"我跟委員報告如果真的碰到狀況的話呢你只要看到外面貼有那個防空避難的那個指引標誌就可以過去那人數的多寡的話我們會再做處理就是第一個因為我們可能是要收容外面的人裡面的譬如說住在那棟大樓沒有問題但是你那個大樓要對外開放那對外開放可以收容多少人這個部分呢需要再做一個比較詳細的評估所以這邊的答案是沒有錯誤的"},{"start":3706.636,"end":3718.348,"text":"沒有錯人數不一致耶我剛講過了因為他說影音樓參數不一樣那我最後地方警察去謝謝部長那部長特別有請到特別有提到就是大樓地下室的收容人數那"},{"start":3720.438,"end":3741.432,"text":"這邊因為當時我們這個內政部也是請這個里長民政系統下去發放那我在想兩個問題第一個是要請教說未來這些大樓地下室的收容空間很多都是這個私人的大樓住宅這個部分會不會其實很多委員在提到會不會未來民眾要去避難的時候這些大樓是不開放的這些大樓在事前有沒有知道說"},{"start":3742.072,"end":3771.277,"text":"他們地下室是要給人家來避難收容的我們的地方警察機關去貼那個標示的時候呢大樓管委會員都知道而且如果有碰到空防警報發放的時候他們必須打開那這是根據我們民防法的規定好這是第一個問題所以部長這邊很明確指示未來這些大樓有被指示說是防空避難室的未來都一定要讓民眾進去避難嗎這是您的意思嗎不是"},{"start":3772.188,"end":3789.518,"text":"自己的大樓的民眾當然要往地下室避難但是外面如果有臨時過來的人的話呢那就是他在空房的時候呢就必須要對外開放在空房的時候才要對外開放好那好那最後我想要再請教部長的時候這個"},{"start":3791.314,"end":3812.962,"text":"我們現在所有的這個防災的問題我們有沒有因為我們說要請里長來協助嘛那未來有沒有希望說編一些預算給里長平時的做一些的防驗這個訓練的這個部分有報告委員我們有兩套一個就是防災協作中心的成立那另外一個呢就是防災式的訓練現在全台灣的村里長的防災式訓練已經達到三分之一以上"},{"start":3813.542,"end":3840.718,"text":"對我說里長的房災市是有取得資格那未來是不是有里內的一個整個房災的房災協作中心裡面就是會根據里的部分需要什麼樣子的一個應變準備物資放在鄉鎮公所或是區公所那如果里有需求的話呢我們會針對因為我知道那個委員所說的可能是大里比較大的里那有需要協助的話呢我們會再跟縣市地方政府來做這個差異上面看怎麼樣處理比較好好謝謝"},{"start":3844.039,"end":3863.351,"text":"好謝謝張志榮委員的質詢接下來我們請張宏祿發言我請劉部長跟伯父部長劉部長跟伯父部長張委員好"},{"start":3869.941,"end":3889.769,"text":"我想先請伯父部長我想請問一下這個從1978年開始我們台灣就都有辦這個叫萬安演習對不對那它的目的是什麼萬安演習就是防空演習也就是民眾如果有遇到"},{"start":3890.461,"end":3918.906,"text":"像空襲的這種情況的話可以就地掩蔽和避難好 那我們現在是不是有城鎮韌性對不對 掩襲就叫民安掩襲民安掩襲對不對 是這可能很多人都還不知道也搞不清楚是不是伯父部長你可以解釋一下所謂外安掩襲我們是所謂的防空避難民安掩襲的話是屬於人力和物力的動員的樣子"},{"start":3920.491,"end":3930.018,"text":"這樣支援我們社會在這個遇到災變的時候我們所有社會的這個有名利和物質的這樣子正用的方式來做演習"},{"start":3931.192,"end":3958.272,"text":"所以城镇任性这个民安演习那个其实是现在我们政府积极在推动国家任性等等的一个很重要的一个演习项目是的每一年都有必要做的是必要做的但很多人其实还不知道你去问你去路上问城镇任性演习民安演习是什么可能大家不大清楚是"},{"start":3959.833,"end":3986.941,"text":"副部長再給你幾秒鐘的時間再大聲跟全國人說一下什麼是民安演習民安演習目前我們國安部每一年在做演習的時候民安演習是必須實施的項目那這個項目裡面是有關於人力物力的動員的資源來維護社會的這樣子一個運作的方式所以這是一個非常嚴重的重要演習"},{"start":3987.813,"end":4009.864,"text":"沒有錯所以我們今天國防部做這一本冊子其實跟以前的防空演習是不一樣的概念那我們是要成正任性民安演習其實這一本冊子裡面很多的內容其實可以跟民安演習是可以扣在一起的吧是不是這樣是的委員講一點都沒錯但是我們的範圍是擴大了"},{"start":4011.658,"end":4018.283,"text":"是把所有過去沒有的這樣子的比如說像今年的彥聖湖事件就是一個很特殊的一個天災那我們針對這個是把所有的演習的狀況集中在這裡面來做一個全民的一個教育和宣導沒有錯啊花了一筆錢當然多宣導多宣傳一些是好事啊對不對但他的基本精神他的價值應該就是配合民安演習吧"},{"start":4041.266,"end":4057.627,"text":"我特別這樣說委員你可以這麼說但是問題是這裡面所包含的範圍更廣泛更廣泛沒有錯我剛剛就說更廣泛我們當然是啊做好充足的準備啊怕敵之不來而已啊有以待之啊但"},{"start":4058.408,"end":4075.422,"text":"這一本冊子我如果可以這樣講這個其實是民安演習裡面一個非常重要的一個宣導然後讓大家知道這個陳正任性民安演習對未來的重要性這裡面當然包括天災當然包括什麼我們是不是可以這樣子說"},{"start":4076.863,"end":4100.319,"text":"委員就廣義的上來講是可以這樣子可以這樣子說當然你們還有一些比較細節但現在很多人在講發這本冊子在幹什麼的其實我們要讓人民知道民眾知道這個就是我們現在推的陳正任信我們的明蘭演習你要讓人民知道那人民這個"},{"start":4101.992,"end":4117.163,"text":"觀念一灌輸裡面他就知道這本冊子是要幹什麼的啊是的這也是一個很重要的理念是不是應該是可以這樣子說可以這麼說可以這麼說嘛好嘛那你這樣跟全國講大家就知道了嘛不然我看今天會有很多質詢會私交這個是我今天請教你的問題是謝謝委員長"},{"start":4122.467,"end":4146.867,"text":"那刘部长那个副部长等一下我也觉得这个非常好非常好但大家刚刚有我看应该报章杂志上也有很多不一样的说法什么的我觉得这本册子非常好不错不过这个刘部长他们他们现在诈骗什么的我们的建议之后他们做得非常好"},{"start":4148.442,"end":4168.071,"text":"部長跟副部長你們有沒有想過在鄉下的人這一本書很好不過叫他看那麼多他也可能沒有辦法看那麼多而且有的人都老花眼了你知道嗎你要叫他這樣子其實有點困難"},{"start":4169.332,"end":4171.834,"text":"有沒有想跟國防部說這個這麼好我們是不是也可以拍一些小短片30秒的然後分重點然後可以去宣導我不知道這個委員的建議很好我們馬上來處理看怎麼樣比較好"},{"start":4186.544,"end":4209.237,"text":"因為你也提到我們這次是解決數位落差跟資訊落差那如果有的人覺得這個字太小或者是字數太多我們當然是希望他就放在客廳裡面有事情的話就翻閱一下而不是看完就丟那剛剛也有委員提到說這本叫小局書我想這本小局書一定比小紅書更有這個資訊的參考性質那我們會來多多宣傳"},{"start":4210.642,"end":4237.289,"text":"對啦 我的意思是說我跟你講這個是我們的民安演習陳正任性的這個我覺得這個他平常都用得到但是你如果要叫七八十歲九十歲的人每天看這個我也有看了一下這個大家年紀都有一點點了也不年輕了我也很年輕啦不不 我們看久了都有點吃力"},{"start":4239.976,"end":4258.023,"text":"這個有的你還要消化然後有的字有的什麼的其實對他們來講對長輩來講我真的覺得字對他們來講有點吃力這點可能是我們我們來多做宣傳還有多語的宣傳也是一個重點對 多管道因為你們現在的詐騙用實例用什麼這樣很多人都看得懂了"},{"start":4264.406,"end":4272.133,"text":"那可以跟國防部啊溝通一下然後呢拍一些小影片或什麼的我覺得反而啊更容易讓大家知道這樣可以吧那個國務部長你覺得勒委員 建議非常好我們回去會比照辦理是"},{"start":4284.364,"end":4300.932,"text":"對啊你看我們軍中我們有非常好的這個弟兄們什麼的請他們出來拍或什麼或配合那個義警義消等等的我覺得是個非常好的宣傳方式啦好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請黃建斌召委謝謝"},{"start":4315.099,"end":4319.696,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們有請先請國防部我博副部長"},{"start":4325.666,"end":4350.331,"text":"部長好部長接下來我想我們的小局書會即將取代農民曆成為全台灣家戶必須收藏的書籍我們今天安排這個專題報告最主要是因為最近普發全民國防手冊造成了不少的爭議包括第二倍金然後以及印上賴金的總統簽名還有普發工作造成很多基層的"},{"start":4351.091,"end":4375.538,"text":"人員疲於奔命最重要的是說很多人都質疑說這本手的車在緊急狀況的時候它是否真的有它的實用性那因此特別我們請國防部專案報告還有備詢希望你們也能夠將今天各位的意見能夠持續的來去做檢討跟精進以及後續的這相關政策也避免最重要是避免造成我們基層人員的困擾跟這個負擔那我想好那接下來我想要請劉事長 劉部長謝謝韋陽"},{"start":4386.019,"end":4412.706,"text":"部長首先要肯定內政部那在本席積極的協調下我們內政部行政院跟內政部我們同意把台東縣現有兩塊兩位屁股體力還給我們天后宮落實還地於民也守護了在地重要的信仰這個傳承這點我想要給我們內政部來感謝不過最近我們針對賴清德總統他公布的這個工地放零的這個政策本席有幾點想要跟你進一步來討論我想先請教部長"},{"start":4413.726,"end":4435.052,"text":"不然你還可以記錄我們今年六月份今年六月份本席在內政委員會就有跟部長來爭取說內政部應該以以南大南澳台州的土地公立放領為例持續推動全國的公立放領以我們台東縣特別是要以台東地區來優先來實施盡速跟我們地方來做研議推動我們公立放領的政策不然你還記錄嗎"},{"start":4436.752,"end":4443.154,"text":"報告委員我有跟你答應過但是現在我跟委員講一下說我們現在進度是超前第一個就是宜蘭的大南澳台地本來叫市辦然後市辦的時候就是以台東縣這邊為主後來我們跟財政部一起清查過後跟獲得行政院的同意我們現在就是所有的這些部分只要清查出來"},{"start":4461.178,"end":4481.192,"text":"他具有這個我們規定上面所說的要65年以前然後連續耕作那我們就按照原來的部分就全部要處理所以跟委員報告超前我們現在內政部已經成立這個審議委員會那今天我們就會發函請包括台東縣在內的縣政府要成立工作小組"},{"start":4482.452,"end":4491.977,"text":"因為我記得當時是跟部長要求說一個月內要趕快回覆然後部長說前次的事情必須要多一點時間因為是財政部他在清查的時候因為台東縣最多所以我都不敢答應奇怪是內政部忘記跟我們立法院來報告為什麼我們還沒有收到消息的時候總統就先公佈了"},{"start":4506.523,"end":4530.129,"text":"沒有沒有我們擔心的是這樣部長擔心的是說第一個當然說如果不管今天是怎樣這個政策如果重要的話當時部長都說要嚴厲的話那我們在不知情的情況下總統就公佈我們擔心的是會不會這樣急救章的推出真的影響到其他農民的權利沒有我想委員你上次這個事情不能清拆委員你上次一定有聽我講過我們現在最大的重點在清查清查是最困難的OK"},{"start":4531.269,"end":4543.436,"text":"然後清查你要決定他是國有平地耕地還是國有山坡地耕地然後是不是符合國土保育原則那我也跟委員報告從17年前到現在有很多法律已經在修正譬如說有這個這個原住民的這個這個進法補償或者其他"},{"start":4548.158,"end":4577.498,"text":"這些可能要排除或者你要排除漁權要排除這個台大實驗林等等這些那都必須要跨部會協商那因為如果跨部會協商的話一定要到行政院以上的這些政務委員來做協調所以那時候並不是說沒有照這個進度而是我們超過這個進度在處理那所以呢這個總統在上個禮拜週末的時候他公布的時候是公布這個政策那政策公布之後我們內政部的地政單位可以處理的都已經先處理了"},{"start":4578.419,"end":4579.862,"text":"那不過部長就剛剛你提到說總統公佈的這些條件我們就在討論條件的部分"},{"start":4586.229,"end":4608.344,"text":"他依據我們總統的提出的這個工地放寧條件第一個就是必須在1976年民國1976年就是9月25年65年進行跟政府就訂定契約到現在這第一個嘛對不對第一個就是你要符合有國有工國有耕地放寧實施辦法還有國有邊際養殖用地放寧實施辦法就是這兩個條件符合這兩個條件這個對很多農民聽起來聽起來比較簡單"},{"start":4614.247,"end":4640.404,"text":"說起來比較簡單 聽起來比較複雜為什麼會這樣講部長你也知道台東縣的土地是複雜我們台東縣是山多平原少然後公有地占了87%然後又涉及到的是財政部 國防部 農業部還有中央主管機關跟國營事業土地複雜得最多比其他縣市更加寬因此台東縣其實在本期上週回去台東的時候很多農民都很擔心說"},{"start":4641.064,"end":4642.846,"text":"現在我們工地放領的這個是現在國有的平地耕作跟養殖戶第一個我們的三多平平地這個部分就是一個限制"},{"start":4661.287,"end":4684.337,"text":"很多人 他可能耕作多人 他是在山區他是山丘地 山坡地 耕作地他第一個就被排除在外了嘛 這第一個問題嘛第二個很多農民要擔心的是說公地放年只限什麼 自耕農有的農民他做幾十米之後 他耕不到他早期的主業早就找不到了然後第二個就是年紀大 他沒辦法再耕作然後所以他的土地 繼承權過戶給他的兒女的時候"},{"start":4687.127,"end":4714.735,"text":"他兒子死了可能他沒農報啊所以他沒辦法贖人家是根農嘛所以這個可能照他幾十年的等待就是一場空那第三個會擔心的是什麼台東很多農民早期是像退府會台塘甚至是台營土地租用租用這些土地這些人也都不符合恐怕都不符合在這一次公立放領的對象裡面所以我們根據你們內政部提供的這些簡報資料台東公立放領的面積達到了608公頃"},{"start":4716.776,"end":4735.492,"text":"全國最多 這個跟我們隔壁的屏東縣比起來將近多了兩倍 將近是大概兩倍啦但是台東縣符合這樣條件的人數只有752人這個人數大概是屏東縣的一半面積是台東縣的兩倍 人口數是屏東的一半"},{"start":4736.152,"end":4762.027,"text":"那這樣現在政策相對是模糊我們台東縣的境內的狀況又很特殊因此台東很多農民擔心說最後能夠成功申請到放寧的人他可能比你們預估的人數還要少所以我們想在這裡讓我們中央這個不要玩文字遊戲因為他們等了一輩子等了那麼久他們期待著這些事情不要好不容易有了希望結果到後來"},{"start":4764.849,"end":4787.085,"text":"所以本期今天會提出一個臨時提案也要求我們內政部在一個月以內邀集相關的部會還有我們地方政府來擬去這個工地放寧的清澈並針對我們台東縣的特殊狀況來做研議就像我們提到那個地形的關係然後還有就是重寬重塑的推動我們工地放寧的政策讓這項德政能夠真的落實到民眾的"},{"start":4787.705,"end":4787.825,"text":"我會回應"},{"start":4801.621,"end":4827.748,"text":"那報告委員第一個我們根據現有的行政命令來處理所以並沒有所說的有模糊的空間第二個呢我剛講過有新的法令譬如說你牽涉到國土保安還有牽涉到信賴保護原則的部分狀況之下我們的所有原則都非常清楚三個原則兩個辦法然後你剛所提到台東跟屏東那是因為屏東的土地的比數是台東的兩倍"},{"start":4828.528,"end":4834.072,"text":"不是面積多寡 你又寡很多人然後再來有關於它是自耕農的這個只要有延續是跟財政部的國有財產署有訂約那我們會來請國有財產署來從寬認定因為我們內政部所處理是土地的清查那清查出來以後它這個清查土地的所有者有沒有跟國有財產署繼續去簽那個契約"},{"start":4851.764,"end":4868.589,"text":"那就是由這個國有財產署來認定所以我剛剛才說我們今天會請縣市地方政府趕快成立工作小組因為國有財產署他手上就是所有的清單名冊都有但是他在對證譬如說有的人可能已經往生但是他是不是繼續跟國產署有訂定契約那應該就是沒有太大的問題但是這個是財政部認定"},{"start":4874.631,"end":4880.533,"text":"我都聽到委員的建議在處理啊 你在抄錢啊所以是不是跟我們上禮拜聽到的 其實不太簡單嘛 對不對不是不是 沒有沒有沒有第一個 站在我們的跟那個財政部一起來協辦的立場上面第一個 法律沒有改變第二個 信賴保護原則沒有改變第三個 國土保育是新增加的如果你那個地方是有艷澀湖的危險或那個地方有土石流 你現在放你出去"},{"start":4903.542,"end":4910.284,"text":"是害了他們所以這個部分要排除我們是臨時提案是委員的權益但是那個財政部的部分我們尊重財政部他們的處理的規範好不好好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請王美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":4943.22,"end":4950.502,"text":"主席 在這裏我們博長 還有博副部長好 請劉部長還有博副部長議員好 博長 教授在這裏本市要跟你們先探討一個問題今天要說不發新版的台灣專民的安全指引"},{"start":4968.117,"end":4978.784,"text":"在這個過程當中你們差不多在十五個月我們開始發放發放第一半的跟你們的心態是覺得說這不錯所以我們才有第二半的是這樣是不是再來在你們發第二半的時候在本席看起來第一半的跟第二半的都沒有差別跟差這個"},{"start":4997.912,"end":5001.614,"text":"就是最近發生花蓮那個禮物要給大家買了你們的用心是什麼來請回答一下喂我跟您報告這個舊版和新版事實上來講我們也是結合了現況來做調整現況所以你可以把花蓮這個災害這個禮物把它放進去那至於說裡面內容我們也依照第一版很多"},{"start":5027.694,"end":5051.599,"text":"大家的建議啊把很多像比如說很多像影音版的這個很大的這樣數據的我們是用這個QR Code的方式你可以去在裡面去看那比如說舉例來講比如說防空避難設施那我們就把它放在這裡面那所以舊版和新版裡面是調整了很多的內容更加的豐富因為在本社的感覺"},{"start":5054.599,"end":5060.822,"text":"再加上我們總統的簽名您是好意 總統也很關心台灣的安全現在讓大家公開 覺得沒有你們的用心在這個過程 我想要向保護部長說我們在這幾次的災害當中 為百姓"},{"start":5080.353,"end":5082.234,"text":"來拍拚來服務維新是人感動啊在這也拜託回去讓我們的國軍兄弟說聲謝謝他們有他們真好謝謝委員的關心在你剛才本席跟你說的時候你有說"},{"start":5099.626,"end":5104.53,"text":"納入大家的意見在本席的看法上早上跟你們說的時候你們就第二半印好了在這裡 你有覺得說在第七天 說實在很厲害 很厲害因為你們今天要印這份是希望我們的事大 看得很清楚我再說實在"},{"start":5129.758,"end":5138.145,"text":"伯父部長 太小智了是 鮑威我自己老花眼我都看不清楚 我覺得要改進不在你們的用心 我覺得我們既然要讓大人來看清楚的時候像你說的 你自己又看不清楚我也覺得 本席在這裡覺得 我們印這份出來"},{"start":5155.606,"end":5166.99,"text":"一定要有那個效果我覺得這很好讓北省了解說我們如何安全要做什麼的時候應該大家都看得到是的 謝謝委員長來 部長"},{"start":5178.717,"end":5181.259,"text":"在這裡 本市要跟你談到做這份的選擇的用意就是要讓大家更清楚、更安全嘛在本市所了解 你們10月開始分差不多分到每年1月左右但是本市在等候的時候會感覺會比較期待因為我們要分到到位"},{"start":5206.258,"end":5206.899,"text":"因為他們是依依依依依依依依依依"},{"start":5229.895,"end":5232.077,"text":"到一月的時候 本地的政府都有本農民利我們可以作為給他們本的時候 比較夠到位所以 本市要跟你們說 我們不是說他們出來而已我們也要有那個效果"},{"start":5255.848,"end":5257.589,"text":"因為大家社區都會做談會我們也願意讓我們的市長、我們的部長、當地的管理長"},{"start":5270.043,"end":5270.924,"text":"說一說這不錯我們社區座談會的時候可以站出來讓當地的理事也好理事長也好跟我們這裡的市長來講這樣好不好來"},{"start":5286.817,"end":5291.839,"text":"感謝委員的關心我們發放給他更清楚內政部是有邀請地方政府開會他們說如果要補償更清楚的時候我們會掛一些手續費所以基本上地方政府跟發放的手續費我們是一分兩元"},{"start":5304.085,"end":5307.388,"text":"所以我們要按照這個方式但是如果裡面有四角柴的地方我們要按照這個委員的指導我們才來改善然後我們不是十月開始搬啦十月那個國防部還沒印好啦國防部11月底才印好那是五千分"},{"start":5322.603,"end":5325.446,"text":"五千分的本對啦 第一屆的一屆啦我講的是說第一屆啦第一屆的五千分 那一屆我們十月開始本嘛本來的時候你會覺得說 有人覺得不錯我們再來贏 我們再來追加第二億一百千在裡面的時候"},{"start":5343.837,"end":5347.24,"text":"我就是說 我們可以再改善就好了不是本來 農民力這裡是大人的現代化現在農民力越做越大份就要讓大人看得清楚所以我們日本要硬得大份對啦 我也覺得說硬得大力硬得大份對對對我告訴你 日本要硬得大力大份不然大家都老花眼不過我們錢也要省"},{"start":5372.759,"end":5374.92,"text":"也不能飲料太大份啊我們也不能亂開啊在這裡 部長本來要說在消防的APP裡面本來有去看應該所有的動民都有看到中興大陸我們立法院裡面裡面可以融入2,284個"},{"start":5402.216,"end":5405.159,"text":"不然 你知道我們的中心大樓 樓梯這麼小跟我們的電梯 如果放債的時候 不可以坐電梯嘛要早早早的時候 我們的樓梯這麼黑 又這麼難走"},{"start":5423.037,"end":5431.02,"text":"我們真的能夠融入2284個嗎報告委員 所以為什麼我們希望大家可以看這個APP在中興大樓以外 我們對面好好有 我知道 我們有附近還有4個地方可以我們的消防署最好的地方就是你所在地的附近5個地方都可以去"},{"start":5444.485,"end":5461.16,"text":"不是只有一個地方那可能也會造成像那個委員所說的是不是會有擁擠這樣狀況所以我們才是一直強調說這些防空避難都需要做演習讓大家知道怎麼過去然後不要造成其他的演習我們說自己要演習東西清清的"},{"start":5466.244,"end":5481.272,"text":"他都會照顧起來我最高興的就是大樓私人的大家訂到一大堆這又不是我阿彌陀佛去賣的這是監察院今年七月賣的大樓咧跟你們說訂到這樣跟你們說要去買 要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說要去買東西跟你們說"},{"start":5494.392,"end":5498.774,"text":"所以我希望說這是安全的問題我們要去克服樹林的大樓要處理再來謝謝 不好意思 再給我一點點時間在這裡面 你們說到說我們要準備那個"},{"start":5516.664,"end":5524.827,"text":"不是 那個收容的 你們知道嗎 因為時間不夠 我沒辦法來講很多在那個選修隊裡面 我們有說過要準備防災的東西"},{"start":5534.52,"end":5536.501,"text":"現在就是說 普通人 我也要 你這個必然背包裡面在選修隊自己採購的 裡面所有的 我們也要改進"},{"start":5550.595,"end":5558.338,"text":"我們現在還在做這個 跟你叫選手隊的來到三天來做的時候來賓不能去做這個 不能申請是不是保證你們未來要來這個避難背包的訴求 要來納入不像說的 叫佩穗準備跟人家很辛苦 要叫人準備 還不能申請 不能做"},{"start":5580.128,"end":5586.534,"text":"這樣是不是沒什麼對嗎是不是補充你要去研議一下我來研議好不好因為我也希望地方政府可以倒三天因為順序對大部分是以地方政府的提案來成立的我知道 剛才我是說補充不管是最好可以自己準備好因為他要放什麼東西比較重要對啦"},{"start":5600.908,"end":5604.489,"text":"要放什麼東西的時候 我的意思就是說最不基本的要放的東西我們叫白色的要準備啊 跟我們社區要準備沒辦法 申請錢 這也很奇怪好不好 去研議一下 因為我還有幾個條問題的時候 我要用書面"},{"start":5625.79,"end":5641.855,"text":"謝謝大家跟大家繼續努力我們不是要戰爭我們是要讓中華民國的台灣更好因為風災災害也很多所以大家互相加油互相幫忙謝謝謝謝王美惠委員的質詢接下來請黃婕維發言"},{"start":5660.879,"end":5663.601,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請先請劉部長請劉部長好部長早在進入今天這個安全指引的主題之前想要先請教這個中配的問題喔因為其實最近的這個花蓮的案例那我知道說現在我們內政部因為他們這個花蓮縣政府自己用溯源的方式那讓他"},{"start":5689.835,"end":5705.588,"text":"撤銷了那你們現在也移送監察院那我想問的是除了這樣子移送監察院之外有沒有其他的處理方式所以想要先請教部長你怎麼看國民黨說要修國籍法讓中配不用放棄中國籍就可以任我們台灣的公職呢甚至他們還提到說是不是用遷竊結束的方式就可以當作來放棄中國籍的一個證明"},{"start":5717.257,"end":5726.682,"text":"報告委員內政部主管的國籍法尤其是20條裡面寫得非常的清楚要擔任台灣尤其是中華民國的公職的話"},{"start":5727.298,"end":5753.965,"text":"他對台灣的中華民國負有國家忠誠的義務如果他擁有中華民國以外的國籍的話那這個忠誠義務可能大打折扣甚至對於他是對於我們敵對的國家來講會讓人覺得說不管忠誠有問題甚至是造成國安或者是滲透方面的問題我們是其其不以為可那有些網路上面的人會說那中華人民共和國的國籍"},{"start":5754.665,"end":5774.839,"text":"算是外國國籍嗎對的在112年的行政院秘書長韓的時候就有特別提到中國大陸人民不具有我國的國籍就不是屬於我國的國民所以內政部依照這個112年行政院秘書長韓在多次要求北北桃"},{"start":5778.687,"end":5783.633,"text":"花這幾個有這個所謂的這個村里長資格的總共五個其實都有發函多次請他們按照國籍法的方式要解職那這一次呢這個花蓮縣政府呢他的訴願裡面呢他也提到說叫我們另為釋法之處分"},{"start":5797.97,"end":5810.226,"text":"那我請我們的這個同仁下去了解之後無論怎麼樣如果這一位中配仍然回復他村長的資格的時候我們仍然會依法請他解除村長的職務"},{"start":5811.448,"end":5833.736,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明其實部長說得已經非常非常清楚了國籍法裡面的精神就是說如果你持有外國國籍就是代表你效忠的是他國嘛那在台灣來說要效忠中華民國台灣當然就是要有我國的國籍並且不可以同時擁有他國的國籍更何況你服的是台灣的公職"},{"start":5834.836,"end":5851.529,"text":"對台灣當然要有效忠的義務認為這個精神是非常非常清楚的我也不希望說到時候立法院修出一個讓特定的國家的國民擁有特權在台灣可以擔任公職這樣的結果那所以我在這邊想要建議其實地質法76條裡面有提到說"},{"start":5854.031,"end":5878.313,"text":"如果縣市政府辦理的自治事項違背憲法法律或是基於法律授權的法規那我們中央的主管機關可以來撤銷變更或廢止其執行所以我希望的是如果到時候繼續用這樣的方式走下去我們內政部就用地制法76條的方式來處理讓它予以解職在這邊建議我們內政部直接可以這樣處理喔"},{"start":5879.736,"end":5887.963,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我們會來研議辦理好謝謝部長那再來我們部長請留著那我們也請伯父"},{"start":5889.161,"end":5913.528,"text":"那再來提到這個安全指引這個小局書我認為你們現在用普發的方式是非常好的光是讓大家看到知道什麼是小局書有討論度讓全民就有更深層的意識我覺得這就是一個很大的進步那當然在這個過程當中也有很多民間的指教包括說有一些委員說印這個手冊是浪費錢然後還說印手冊比國軍加薪重要嗎甚至有"},{"start":5918.55,"end":5947.732,"text":"有人说是不是你们印这个只是让大家当成废纸我们伯父在这边可不可以再跟大家讲一下为什么印这个普发的手册这么重要甚至我们也不断的提醒说民间的声音是要更广泛的来发放是谢谢委员的指导我想安全指引的手册在全球来讲是一个趋势尤其是我们现在看到全球富二世灾难不管是地震海啸或是这个台风"},{"start":5948.477,"end":5955.946,"text":"這個天災的意外頻傳所以在這種情況下全球也是在推展這樣子的一個小冊子讓所有全民"},{"start":5956.448,"end":5982.601,"text":"在平常時間就知道如何避難那有所準備才有安全那在這種情況下呢更加的凸顯台灣在這個手冊上的重要性因為我們可以看到近期我們國家不管是南部的水災或者是花蓮的驗射服事件那這個都代表極端氣候下平常我們就應該要有這樣子避難的一個準備工作所以這個小冊子就是要提醒"},{"start":5983.286,"end":5991.072,"text":"全民能夠自己保障自己的安全知道如何的去避難我想這是一個非常好的方式好 謝謝伯父所以我在這邊想要請你們多宣導的是既然你們發了就要去發揮它的正面價值要不斷的去宣導說為什麼要用紙本為什麼要發放這個小冊子而不是讓這些網路上的假訊息這一些謠言甚至質疑的聲音越來越大這個非常非常重要"},{"start":6012.028,"end":6037.474,"text":"因為更有準備本來就是對國民是大家互相加強能力讓大家自己變強甚至是讓大家更有韌性的一個非常好的方式怎麼想都是正面的效果才對怎麼會有這一些莫名其妙的質疑而是全球當全世界所有國家幾乎所有國家都在努力的加強自己的防衛意識的時候偏偏我國有人在唱衰自己"},{"start":6038.294,"end":6053.862,"text":"我不希望這樣的事情繼續發生那所以呢這本小冊子裡面我想要比較要這邊要提醒的幾個事情喔第一個就是說這個裡面其實也有提到說這些假訊息到底要怎麼防護但是我認為提供的這些資訊還不夠"},{"start":6055.083,"end":6067.756,"text":"所以我在這邊要建議的就是說接下來啊不管像我們花蓮這個顏色湖發生事情的時候或是所有的天災人禍然後或者是未來遇到一些戰時的準備其實這些假訊息都會非常氾濫那他們都會透過特定的一些APP例如說抖音啊這種小紅書上面的這種氾濫的訊息更多尤其多尤其是他就是來自"},{"start":6078.887,"end":6087.895,"text":"境外敵對勢力的平台所以像這樣子的平台你們到底如果到時候不管災時還是戰時發生這些問題然後假訊息在這些平台氾濫的時候你們有什麼準備所以委員這個是我們平常在錯假訊息防範上來講或是認知作戰我們國防部在這方面有專制單位來負責"},{"start":6100.743,"end":6105.027,"text":"至於說委員的建議就是說未來的錯假訊息或是認知作戰是否納入到全民的安全執行手冊呢這都是納入到我們後續在製作新版的時候下一個版本的時候我們會收集很多意見像比如自小我們都會在這方面來去去的來求教所有"},{"start":6119.498,"end":6122.819,"text":"給我們所有做的好的建議謝謝伯父那最後兩個小問題請教我們內政部劉部長因為其實手冊裡面有提到說如果網路或是通訊中斷的時候呢我們可以用廣播來獲得資訊可是其實我收到非常多的民眾陳情說因為我們現在很多廣播是空屏導致說很容易被尤其中國很近他們的會干擾"},{"start":6143.464,"end":6162.979,"text":"所以很常聽到的是中國來的一些廣播的聲音所以像這個空瓶被干擾或者是被取代這樣的狀況是不是你們有一些研究以及預防才不會說明明更關鍵的時刻是透過廣播來接受資訊可是卻因為空瓶然後早就已經被中國的這個蓋瓶的方式早就蓋瓶過去了報告委員這個部分我們大概有意識到這樣的狀況"},{"start":6167.583,"end":6190.306,"text":"所以我們才會說用這個發放紙本的方式讓大家知道說真正的頻道我們在這裡面都有寫是以這個警察廣播電台或者是我們國家的一個公用頻道為主然後才有正確的訊息尤其是如果手機離線的狀態之下所以其實提供正確的資訊管道非常非常重要不要到時候這些連我們的廣播都被干擾"},{"start":6191.127,"end":6201.175,"text":"好那以上這個當然我希望你們要不斷的推廣這本書讓大家知道保護自己的安全守護自己的國家守護自己的社區非常重要謝謝好謝謝黃街委員的質詢我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":6547.639,"end":6554.24,"text":"好我們現在繼續開始繼續尋找接下來請麥玉珍委員發言主席好有請國防部還有主機總署請國防部還有主機總署"},{"start":6576.352,"end":6591.203,"text":"副部長還有那個請教一下我們就是國防部這一次印了1100萬本的台灣全民安全指引總經費是6447萬其中印製的費用是4279萬是動資"},{"start":6602.612,"end":6629.522,"text":"第二预备金要资本的普发明年1月5日前发到每一户可是我们要先请教的第二预备金依法应该是急迫或不可意见的支出而这本手册多数内容就是把各部会多年的宣传资料拼在一起"},{"start":6630.783,"end":6647.047,"text":"還加上許多口號與宣示花了6000多萬卻不見得能在危急的時間用上場這個才是我們重點質疑的所以這個全民安全指引補發計畫是不是在10月23日已經通過行政院核定"},{"start":6653.666,"end":6680.232,"text":"但是現在呢你都知道事先規劃的可預見的政策為什麼還要用動用不可預見的急迫需要的第二預備金這個是我們質疑的報委員我想我們事實上在前面在做的時候發五千本的時候呢那個時候我們發現到這個發完以後事實上很多的像"},{"start":6682.455,"end":6698.329,"text":"風災 艷澀湖事件都發生了那我們就感覺到說在這個急迫性上來講尤其是我們可以看到這一次花蓮事件如果說我們有這個全民安全手冊的話那事實上來講在平時多做準備比如說他知道如何去疏散"},{"start":6698.789,"end":6719.1,"text":"或避難或者是聽廣播或者是說他能夠接受到這樣子的一個資訊的話我想這都是我們在先前印5000本以後我們發現到不足的地方所以我們用急迫性在年度預算不可以支應的情況下依照預算法第70條我們來申請第二預備金來支應"},{"start":6722.438,"end":6733.272,"text":"急迫性很有用是這樣子嗎所以你們很好用不用監督很好用對是的所以呢這一次就是總費用明明超過6千萬卻拆分成3塊印製"},{"start":6740.455,"end":6746.818,"text":"4000多萬印製的4000多萬地方的作業的話就1900多萬還有就是郵寄就是180多萬所以剛好每一塊很好用所以呢就落在5000萬被查的門檻下所以請教這樣子的分折是不是刻意"},{"start":6765.207,"end":6792.297,"text":"規避就是我們的就是立法院的監督所以我們才要想要請教的部分因為依規定第二一杯精動之超過五千萬因送立院被查這樣的切割處理真的符合監督精神嗎還是從國庫直接到黨庫就可以你們隨便用"},{"start":6793.724,"end":6797.468,"text":"我們想要了解的完全不是您所講的這樣子說什麼黨我們還在預算法第70條來編列預算對啊你們編列預算就是在五千萬以下讓我們沒辦法去查因為這個政策從9月16號就公佈了"},{"start":6814.025,"end":6816.207,"text":"11月開始發送 明年1月5日要發完整個時程明確的規定緊迫性在哪裡不可意見在哪裡這筆經費為什麼不能提早在年度預算編列呢"},{"start":6833.726,"end":6851.599,"text":"包委員您指導非常好可是我要跟您報告這個事實上來講我們可以看到映射服事件是一個很嚴重的事件對全國都造成很大的震撼那我們之所以有急迫性為什麼要分這個區塊在這麼短時間就是希望這本手冊盡早到我們全民的手上"},{"start":6852.039,"end":6854.44,"text":"剛才你說因為這件事情這本手冊很有用所以我看到這本手冊就變成宣傳手冊不像是生存指南整個手冊你看在宣傳就是拼湊在一起的沒有明確的章節也沒有"},{"start":6874.907,"end":6880.91,"text":"SOP也沒有深入講解防災緊急應變都是講得很籠統更多偏扶在就是精神還有理念請教這樣子的內容實際上的指南意義在危機來臨的時候民眾翻開手冊真的知道怎麼做嗎報告委員我跟您報告這個是這一頁最緊急的在哪裡"},{"start":6900.834,"end":6906.519,"text":"報告委員我要跟您報告這裡面手冊先是一個指引的大綱那所有的內容我們都用QR Code因為它的內容太大太廣所以少QR Code比如說我剛剛舉例來講避難設施全國的避難設施非常的多那我不可能一列在這裡面好所以你說這樣子沒有一列在裡面內容設計跟得蠻荒謬的"},{"start":6927.379,"end":6928.861,"text":"緊急通報電話在夜內誰要去翻再來就是庇護的所查的方式就是設計就給誰看的還有誰在"},{"start":6940.973,"end":6953.388,"text":"炸彈掉下來的時候還慢慢翻嗎沒有目錄啊 整本沒有目錄更誇張的你說要下載下載呢我們還要緊急的怎麼去下載下載裡面還要找"},{"start":6956.952,"end":6959.373,"text":"地圖在哪裡不是下載就馬上看到了還要下載還要寫很多像我們長輩你叫他說下載他都不會了還要下載很困難還有沒有緊急看到的避難的地圖手冊裡面還有"},{"start":6973.02,"end":6974.701,"text":"請我們的民眾呢要寫下三個跟家人約定緊急會合的地點在手冊裡面寫還要想請問你你平常跟你的家人聯絡"},{"start":6988.837,"end":6992.981,"text":"都寫在手冊裡面嗎現在科技化了對不對所以呢所以這個就是應酬的嘛我們看到手冊裡面就是防災用的不是消耗預算用的我們沒有看到的效果啦但是你說的效果我們就是沒有看到啊"},{"start":7007.335,"end":7023.94,"text":"平常就要準備所以這個是為什麼說做一個平常的指引如果說沒有一個正確的概念如何在災變來臨的時候去做正確的防範另外我們所謂的不管緊急設施也好緊急聯絡也好都是一種方式為所做的任何的建議"},{"start":7024.64,"end":7033.604,"text":"我認為都可以作為我們日後參考但是這本手冊的利益就是希望全民安全全民能夠有準備才安全我想這是我們今天在急迫性上來講也是結合了全球的這種複合式災難發生必須要做的事情我想這是一個很好的一個全民的一個大家認識一個防災的概念方式安全在哪裡要貼在這裡安全貼在這裡安全貼在這裡你每天拿這一本出門"},{"start":7052.771,"end":7056.692,"text":"報告委員 這個就是平常要教育平常要教育平常教育這本手冊教育你們也說長輩沒辦法下載平常教育但是誰拿這本剛才我們委員說自大一點自大一點 拿一個包包很大的放下去給他拿出來所以再說你們的多元版本還有離線的工具裡面你們說怕長輩不會上網"},{"start":7082.421,"end":7106.068,"text":"沒有比這本手冊更有用的東西嗎還有我們全國現在新住民還有外籍人士在台灣超過百萬人但是為什麼裡面只有印尼版沒有其他版本這兩百萬人的生命不重要嗎什麼時候上線還有我們在手冊裡面在看到的就是"},{"start":7107.569,"end":7123.883,"text":"兒少的防護第24頁裡面家長和孩子討論戰爭結果完全叫家長怎麼樣保護孩子都沒有只講的是戰爭時發生的怎麼樣逃跑也沒有"},{"start":7124.403,"end":7126.904,"text":"怎麼避難的 也沒有 怎麼備藥 結果呢整個章程裡面都是討論侵落 還有呢到底防疫交易怎麼樣只有意識形態請問一下這段的內容的水省的審查人員有沒有消防或者醫療緊急的急救的或者是資訊供電水電的專業來去審查"},{"start":7152.879,"end":7154.341,"text":"還有說官員你們就是走個形式就好不是不是不是如果有的話你們就是要把這些的名單誰的意見誰審的誰簽核的誰負責的內容給我們報告這個絕對不是"},{"start":7168.362,"end":7171.864,"text":"今天國安部單獨做出來的而是經過專家學者跨部會的大家長時間的討論做出來的但是我們沒有看到緊迫性還有需求性沒有達到我們真的想要的社會對我們指教我們也聽到了如果說有不足的地方我們會在未來如果大家的需求是這麼的強烈就跟委員所講的那麼強烈那我們希望下一個版本馬上就出來"},{"start":7193.576,"end":7198.857,"text":"因為這個的確是一個非常好的如果私商就是我們國防部這麼說在說因為時間有限我再強調我們支持防災備戰但是我們反對的是花錢卻用不上派不上用場還有沒有花錢花在刀口上這本花了六千多萬台灣全民安全指引內容就是"},{"start":7222.915,"end":7225.056,"text":"就是拼湊還有資訊殘缺還有混亂的就是還有混雜的一些什麼政治口號防空避難地點要民眾自己花自己看重點電話藏在裡面要自己寫集合地點"},{"start":7242.886,"end":7247.949,"text":"這樣到底是哪一年的做法 更離譜的是因為經費裡面還要動用第二一倍金 我們質疑就是拆帳就是沒有讓我們去查 就非常不合理所以我有幾點要求 政府要做提升全民防衛任性 但任性不是靠這本書而已而是人民在危難時刻"},{"start":7270.021,"end":7286.29,"text":"避難的時候能行動資訊要夠還有方向要明確所以現在這本我們沒有看到所以我們希望剛才我們的副部長說你們要重新再用所以我再要求兩個三個手冊裡面要"},{"start":7290.852,"end":7304.648,"text":"編列 預算 動資的審查制度 第一個第二個 手冊的存在必要性與修正的措施第三 未來所有全民防衛的交易的專業審核標準"},{"start":7306.83,"end":7310.292,"text":"於公開程序人民需要的是可以救命的資訊而不是浪費六千萬的政治文宣請國防部一必在就是一週內向我們的國會還有我們的人民提出最負責最有效的手冊可以嗎"},{"start":7327.282,"end":7346.346,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個手冊事實上它就是非常有用絕對沒有說浪費公堂也絕對會發在刀口上我希望大家能夠重視這個手冊就跟委員重視拿這本手冊再來發經驗委員也是重視所以才可以跟我們這麼多經驗告訴我們真的我們看到真的是傻眼謝謝 希望你在一周內提出是 謝謝委員謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言接下來請牛許廷文發言"},{"start":7361.52,"end":7368.064,"text":"謝主席內政部還有國防部有請請內政部部長還有國防部伯父部長先請國防部啦因為先問手冊內容伯父這個午安喔這個我想請教一下這個最新的普發版本跟我手上這本這本是之前送到我們辦公室的應該算舊的舊的版本嘛差異在哪裡"},{"start":7389.598,"end":7402.583,"text":"這驗色壺的事件加了一個驗色壺還有加了總統的簽名這是新版的問你新舊的差異除了驗色壺之外就是加了總統簽名就這樣嗎我們還有那個我請我們那個"},{"start":7408.471,"end":7434.119,"text":"包委員普發版跟9月16號初步公佈的這版本最大差異有幾個地方首先是在序言的地方增加總統的簽名第二個部分是內容增加了眼色湖的這個可能異流或潰壩的部分的一個指引那其次的話在二三個QR code裡面呢"},{"start":7434.799,"end":7456.4,"text":"我們把這QR Code的這個盡量變成短版的QR Code便於民眾查詢好 謝謝這個本席先給這個國防部一個建議啦因為稍早張志倫我也有提你們這個報告裡面寫的東西聽我覺得有點噁心啦說淺顯易懂的方式編寫視覺吸睛的設計風格深獲各界正面肯定或迴響"},{"start":7457.543,"end":7472.351,"text":"希望索取或授權印製等等所以要補發我跟你講這些東西其實大可不必為什麼還有總統的簽名我當然不是說總統簽名不好但我請教一下國防部部長你們講副部長你們之前參佐了世界各國的版本他們都有總統簽名嗎恐怕不見得吧我這個我沒有太注意不過因為"},{"start":7476.92,"end":7481.164,"text":"總統也非常重視這件事情這個也是全國的事情我想這個總統來簽名我想對於我們國防部來講也是一種鼓舞也是肯定我們這份手冊從你的國防部的本位來講它是一種鼓舞對我們工作同仁來講是一個鼓舞對這是從你工作同仁的角度但你想想看從社會大眾的角度總統是選舉產生這幾年台灣的政治不是特別安定彼此之間或有仇視的狀況"},{"start":7503.343,"end":7514.125,"text":"那麼當你加了簽名然後加上馬上就要普發的時候他當然就會被政治化解讀嘛我們總統是三軍統帥我們所有國防排批書以後QDR全部都是總統簽名沒關係你如果今天要很堅持我也沒有打算說服你但我要跟你討論一下這件事情不管是你的國防業務裡面提的民防等等"},{"start":7527.208,"end":7550.598,"text":"其實我們都希望政策可以順利的來推動謝謝委員指導請大家政黨不一樣謝謝委員指導但就是因為政黨不一樣所以我要提醒你要聽一聽不同的聲音是當然當然我們的社會因為政治氛圍不太好這都是現實所以越多政治相關的駙馬在裡面的時候他反而會對你的宣傳穩定等等向我造成負面影響謝謝委員指教這我想你應該只可以理解這樣建議的初衷啦對不對"},{"start":7551.338,"end":7563.206,"text":"我們都不要用政治的角度來談這件事情不會 絕對不會用政治角度因為你剛好做了這樣的事然後剛好又加碼普發那當然就會或多或少一些狀況我本身就是要善盡在黨的角色我們要做一些提醒的角色希望可以做一些處理那這個"},{"start":7565.208,"end":7585.794,"text":"有一些東西因為你們在談這樣子的一個手冊的認定的時候你們講的參酌了很多國家的判斷那當然這年頭因應各式各樣的地緣風險的一個上升大家就會談說假訊息跟資訊試讀的裡面是很重要的這點本席百分之百贊成但是裡面的一些內容上本席是認為有或有精進之處"},{"start":7586.534,"end":7603.852,"text":"比如說我們拿瑞典的這個一樣他們的國防安全手冊來談的話他們去談假訊息的試讀的時候其實是非常明顯的是寫得很清楚的也就是說在核實訊息的時候應該避免依賴單一社群平台作為資訊來源應該要有多方查證的這樣的義務那相對來講我們在談資訊的時候卻寫說如果焦慮的話就不要看太多新聞跟網路資訊"},{"start":7609.238,"end":7616.18,"text":"我覺得這個內容上或有可以精進之處這副部長你有沒有收到一些相關這樣子的一些我們當然有各方的聲音我們都聽到了我想這個手冊之所以會有這麼多聲音就是大家對它期待希望它更好那我覺得這次就是我們在製作這個手冊的初衷我們希望這個手冊能夠讓大家接受能夠讓大家平常的時候都有準備我想這是最重要的概念這個本席並不反對啊本來就是這個"},{"start":7634.244,"end":7659.562,"text":"不管是防災或國防的意識的普及這是大家都會贊成的這樣一個價值所以本期才要善盡提醒有關訊息的部分其實它是越客觀然後接受性越低越沒有針對性越沒有政治駙馬它其實效果就會好因為不管是誰執政不管是什麼樣的狀況大家接到訊息都是一樣的所以它才具備有客觀然後大家會願意互相相信互相信賴瑞典的這個手冊裡面也有講啊你不只是要看這本手冊的內容"},{"start":7660.362,"end":7686.594,"text":"你也要跟你身邊的人建立強而有力的社群連結嘛守望相助這樣子的一個概念這觀念都正確但是台灣現在最大的問題就是因為政治大家彼此之間對立太嚴重所以大家要面對這個事情來做合理的處理本席的建議就是在寫這些相關的內容的時候政治的色彩越淡越好他視頻報導他很無聊都沒有關係因為這樣反而比較好的穿透效果這是本席給國防部的建議報告員我可以容我講一句話可以沒問題是"},{"start":7689.396,"end":7698.101,"text":"災變這個事情是沒有政黨的對沒錯嘛災變這個事情是我們全民大家都要能夠祈求自己家庭平安我想在這種色彩上來講我們國防部本來就是聰明我們做這個手冊你看我們去救災的時候我們也沒有分政黨啊當然我們當時第一時間有出動所以這個手冊希望大家是一個"},{"start":7711.149,"end":7734.82,"text":"平常心來看一個災難的防災的一個應變希望全民都安全我們花了五分多鐘的時間討論就是因為遇到了這樣的事嘛我們一起來解決這本期的建議那希望國防部可以採納一下好最後一點點時間我要請教內政部因為同樣啊我們談一下防災的部分你也沒有談我其實之前我印象中我在內政委員會我就有質詢過相關的題目啦"},{"start":7736.062,"end":7757.488,"text":"你剛剛稍早工作報告的時候我還特別去載APP看了防空避難空間我們現在遇到這個狀況馬上就有防空避難的需求但是細節這本期還是要善盡提醒的責任本期舉個例子過去在龜山的租屋處我以前做議員的時候租的房子它的地下室每一棟大樓的地下室都是你理所當然的防災避難空間"},{"start":7758.459,"end":7781.286,"text":"理論上是對不對但我那個大樓地下是什麼呢是那個立體停車塔就他不是人他是沒有人的通道的他就是一個立體停車塔然後他用操作車子升上去降下來那個防空避難處聲稱可以容納300多人那我就常常想如果真的我如果還住在這個地方真的遇到空襲警報我們是當然要一起進去還有人幫我們操作幫我們送下去嗎好像不太對"},{"start":7782.136,"end":7801.886,"text":"所以本期在講你在做了很多的通路跟渠道跟宣傳這都很好但是詳細的盤點我還是要請內政部請警政系統這邊要做一下把控啦也就是說哪一些是真正人流可以順利出入的這樣子的一個防空避難處所哪一些狀況只是當初可能是為了要趕快交作業不見得精細的地方要趕快讓它完整"},{"start":7803.046,"end":7824.043,"text":"這樣子你公布的不管是在手冊上的APP上面的等等到時候真的發生災變的時候它才是一個可以去的地方是 謝謝委員我們會來檢討改進那理論上在地方政府的警政跟消防系統他們都要定時去看一下狀況沒錯 沒錯 沒錯那如果需要修正的話會根據我們的參數來做修正對啊 偶爾會有一些這樣子的特例那你也不要太苛責但是稍微要求一下我們會來檢討改進做一下盤點才能夠把"},{"start":7826.044,"end":7834.23,"text":"不管從內容上也好或者是實質上的細節也好把這政策內容做好我想這就是不分藍綠大家都期待的事好不好好謝謝兩位辛苦了謝謝林宏旭庭委員的發言接下來我們請李博義委員發言謝謝我有請國防部博副博副部長請國防部副部長劉部長先稍等"},{"start":7857.608,"end":7880.494,"text":"我也好部長我先感謝昭緯今天安排這個小局書的檢討報告當危機來臨時其實讀了第一頁其實真的所有的問題都沒想過當沒有網路的時候當停電的時候當你們家要怎麼樣來"},{"start":7884.608,"end":7911.799,"text":"面對這個問題的時候我想現在很多家庭都沒有想過那我想國防部做了這個手冊我想要問國防部的一個問題一個問題就好了請問我們對解放軍對中華人民共和國解放軍的認識有多少解放軍裡面有沒有針對這個網路攻擊部門的這個解放軍當然有當然有對不對好"},{"start":7914.059,"end":7940.645,"text":"我講一些歐洲的狀況給國防部參考歐洲各國對俄羅斯的這個認知作戰其實態度越來越一致那也就是為什麼現在歐洲各國對於台灣會有這麼多關注的原因之一大家說俄羅斯無二戰爭等等其實最重要的是他們也感同身受那最感同身受的是哪幾個國家我給你參考一下"},{"start":7943.087,"end":7968.955,"text":"愛沙尼亞拉脫維亞立陶宛波蘭這幾個國家其實是受害最深那你認為台灣台灣面對這個中國還有我剛講的這幾個國家面對俄羅斯哪一個受害會比較深哪一個感受會比較深抱怨你剛好問到我我這幾個國家都訪問過是那這幾個國家之所以會請我去訪問的原因是因為他們邀請你去訪問對"},{"start":7970.492,"end":7974.958,"text":"特別是以中華民國國防部部長的身份去訪問我在立陶宛跟NATO的軍官有500個我做演講對NATO是整個NATO沒有就是他的會議就是他的那個治安會另外一個最近你也可以看到在某個國家"},{"start":7987.887,"end":8003.395,"text":"我也在智庫裡面對所有的智庫哪一個國家你可以講出來嗎愛沙尼亞你看那個智庫裡面所有的就是被俄羅斯的假訊息被俄羅斯的網軍攻擊最嚴重的一個國家我演講的內容其實是結合了這個區域的假訊息你演講的重點是什麼我演講的重點是今天的這個地緣政治不分在這個俄羅斯的這種前緣像波羅地亞三個國家"},{"start":8018.254,"end":8024.698,"text":"台灣也是面對了中國大陸所以他們在討論的時候他們有發現到今天立陶宛這些國家或是波蘭 芬蘭這些國家他們所面對的問題跟我們面對是一樣的他的在資安上的共通性事實上來講也有相同的所以在這個區塊上來講事實上來講為什麼現在歐洲他很多的團體到我們這邊來我們很多團體去那個地方"},{"start":8042.668,"end":8061.62,"text":"那其實原因就是因為俄羅斯和中國大陸的威脅是跟地緣政治是齊息相關所以這一點我覺得是我們事實上必須要認真去看我們的未來其實我們去走了一趟歐洲之後我們也發現其實就算不是面對第一線的國家像瑞士"},{"start":8062.864,"end":8088.37,"text":"他們也對這個訊息他們也對這個他們也開始考慮到這些開始非常重視那所以包含很多歐洲的國家都希望幾乎所有都是面對這個問題好 重點來了他們是面對一個俄羅斯我們現在好現在日本的這個狀況出來了至少我們現在有日本跟我們一起原本我們是台灣獨自面對這個請問一下"},{"start":8089.929,"end":8101.977,"text":"副部長這本夠嗎你剛剛講到這些是不是第一頁我們建議對於這些認知作戰對於剛剛劉部長有講到這個長輩們的這些資訊落差數位落差等等的我們要先教導他們是 報告委員您所講的這些事情事實上來講一本冊子大家期待這麼高有這麼多意見就代表這個冊子非常重要"},{"start":8116.345,"end":8143.167,"text":"那至於說是要戰爭了嗎不是啊我現在要這樣講歐洲要戰爭嗎沒有啊可是但是要不要注意要注意歐洲他本身來講他的很多的像我舉例來講很多玻利海國家他每天都知道他告訴我們說其實敵人就在家門口了對所以他在任何的作戰上面來講一本小冊子所代表的是提醒民眾要能夠注意自己的安全這是第一個對"},{"start":8144.008,"end":8152.534,"text":"第二個要能夠解決自己周邊人的安全這是第二個好 副部長我再請問你一個問題有人在癥結我已經聽到兩個國民黨委員這樣講了為什麼總統簽名要討論總統防衛全台灣總統會全台灣提醒台灣人民要注意這些問題為什麼要討論什麼政治色彩這沒有政治色彩因為總統是三軍統帥他基本上來講我們國防部任何一個都是總統簽名"},{"start":8174.388,"end":8186.432,"text":"那我们基本上来讲这是全社会防卫任性那总统更应该要签名因为是全社会防卫任性不是只有说国防部好谢谢副部长那我请刘部长谢谢部长我只有一个问题针对有国民党的委员说大陆不是外国请问刘部长的看法"},{"start":8198.956,"end":8223.779,"text":"大陸不是外國就非常訝異因為我們拿的中華民國的不管是身份證或者是護照或者是其他的跟官方單位有關的都沒有包含中華人民共和國應該要反問國民黨的委員大陸不是外國請問中華民國是外國嗎那如果大陸不是外國中華人民共和國跟中華民國怎麼"},{"start":8224.298,"end":8250.838,"text":"如果大陸地區不叫外國的話那等於是變相的承認台灣是中國的一部分因為現在全世界都認知到中國是指中華人民共和國我想其實為了選舉那有國民黨的委員包含民眾黨的委員可能會做出這個提案其實他們只是想要拿到這些選票但是他們忘了最重要的忘了中華民國忘了"},{"start":8251.465,"end":8273.502,"text":"大陸是我們的敵對勢力忘了大陸一天到晚都想要整病吞我們是我們的國家現在就是中華民國所以我們無論怎麼樣要保全中華民國的最大利益包括主權主權不能讓渡也不能被解釋為是中國的一部分所以在這邊我要請部長對於國際法這一段我們要堅決捍衛是好謝謝"},{"start":8277.477,"end":8288.503,"text":"好謝謝李博弈委員的發言那跟委員會報告後待會我們吳祺銘委員諮詢詢答完之後我們來處理臨時提案那現在我們請吳祺銘委員發言好 下一位一位同仁請我們國防部副部長請國防部副部長"},{"start":8309.741,"end":8321.759,"text":"我也好 副部長好 是今天看大家都在整理全民國防的手冊就是動用第二億北京那本期是沒有什麼意見那因為我們是"},{"start":8322.828,"end":8347.504,"text":"讓我們全民大家都了解 任何災害都是要動用的單位這是對我們的國防的先導 都是一個非常好因為成本也不高一本做起來3.8 就是包含運送也不到6塊其實本席這邊是看了一下這一本其實我們現在全民都不知道怎樣"},{"start":8348.413,"end":8376.251,"text":"都是在怎樣來防詐騙因為我們詐騙是已經過成了整個全民大家的恐慌那其實要做這個應該是結合各單位來做思考因為詐騙順便要怎樣來預防這個反詐騙包含現在的詐騙手法越來越歡心讓我們全民大家都知道說有這個手冊"},{"start":8377.492,"end":8405.46,"text":"有空他也會翻來看啊所以這一點就是我們國防部真的要去研究要去改善不然你整個這個多多每一都很好啊但是還有不足的就是我們要再去檢討的地方副部長這個謝謝委員指教了我想大家對這本手冊這麼關心很多意見加進來那我想這些都是都是在我們後續在新版本的時候做一個調節和調整"},{"start":8407.543,"end":8436.569,"text":"可見全民對這個期待是很高的那我必須要強調今天我們花不管是花多少錢其實生命是無價的所以你今天花這個錢重點是什麼重點是保護人民的生命的財產的安全我想這個是無價的我們如果一直用這樣子的一個方式說要花多少錢浪費工廠倒不如說如果我們從中理念我們的人民可以看到說"},{"start":8437.931,"end":8444.917,"text":"國家在做這個事情的時候能夠確保我自己安全那我想這都是值得那另外一個我們要強調我們今天國軍救災在任何的區域裡面我們也希望他知道國軍要去救災的時候他怎麼先去配合國軍的所有的做救災的行動我想這都是我們今天全民的防衛任性是非常重要的一環這一點呢我必須要向委員報告"},{"start":8462.59,"end":8468.197,"text":"任何的意見我們都虛心接受在未來來講我們希望這個全民的這樣手冊能夠喚起大家對這樣危機意識的這樣重視我想就達到我們的目的了謝謝韋爺好 謝謝我們副部長因為這讓我們全民大家都來知道這是本行"},{"start":8481.749,"end":8495.294,"text":"我剛才都講我本來我也是很支持的只是說我們裡面還有不足的地方是未來還是要我們會改進是加強把它改進是好不好是謝委員好謝謝副部長是請我們內政部部長好謝謝"},{"start":8501.53,"end":8530.175,"text":"法務委員你好 博長你好因為上禮拜我們的考察因為本席在這裡也要再次感謝因為我們的社會住宅一些成效大家都可以看得到在新北市都已經突破了兩萬戶那在土城我們那天去看了有一千兩百戶那個頂補安基那個蓋起來的整個環境也都大大改善"},{"start":8530.775,"end":8552.854,"text":"早期大家都想說社會主宰基地 應用到他們的房價 應用到他們的地段 應用到他們的生活品質但是現在所有的民眾接受了 完全的改觀所以在我們人行道不足的地方 我在這裡建議一下因為校園 我們還有去看那些學校 樂麗國小"},{"start":8554.295,"end":8572.244,"text":"他校園的人行道小朋友行走的安全在這部分 次長也有引諾我也拜託部長在這部分 在經費部分人行道安全 尤其是學校周遭我們都會優先來處理那希望學校可以配合"},{"start":8573.044,"end":8590.779,"text":"好好的部分都是優先處理因為學童的安全很重要小朋友出入 都是要有很好的人行道很平的人行道在這個部分 本省也拜託補充好不好好 感謝委員的支持好 感謝就這樣 謝謝"},{"start":8597.002,"end":8624.918,"text":"謝謝吳清明委員的質詢接下來我們處理臨時提案共議案請宣讀為扶持我國農業發展政府依據憲法第143條第4項國家對於土地之分配與整理應以扶植自耕農及自行使用土地人為原則之基本國策於37年起辦理工地放齡將公有土地放齡給成豬農民該政策不僅提高我國農民收入更奠定台灣經濟發展的基礎"},{"start":8625.538,"end":8646.642,"text":"然應90年間桃枝颱風災害以及國土保育問題行政院於96年9月6日陳水扁總統任期時宣布停止工地放嶺經歷17年後在本席及朝野委員不斷呼籲下賴清德總統終於在114年11月21日宣布重啟工地放嶺為彌補17年來農民的苦苦等待"},{"start":8647.642,"end":8674.942,"text":"要求內政部於三個月內邀集相關部會地方政府進行盤點及研議並考量台東縣境內工地放領之特殊性重塑重寬推動工地放領政策守護台東農民權益提案人委員黃建斌等六人宣讀完畢各位官員臨時提案各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們照案通過接下來請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":8684.93,"end":8686.314,"text":"謝謝主席那有請內政部部長謝謝請內政部劉部長"},{"start":8692.165,"end":8719.317,"text":"陳委員好部長好我想要跟部長報告我這個手冊其實是在我家的信箱拿到的所以我看到根據這個今天的說明說我們已經透過加護系統開始發放了對不對對好那我先幫我的社區好朋友問因為我們其實有還蠻多朋友就住在附近可是不知道是因為林里長發送的速度不一樣還是說發生了什麼事情在我們那個附近有人有拿到有人沒拿到那後續我們如何協助民眾都可以全面的拿到這個手冊"},{"start":8720.497,"end":8741.092,"text":"報告委員現在是這樣子印製的部分是由國防部來負責然後他會發送到地方政府那地方政府我們自己內政部已經邀集所有的地方政府來那希望透過民政系統也就是說村里幹事來幫忙發放那現在就是按照每個區域來處理那其實我們真正開始發放是11月"},{"start":8743.054,"end":8749.737,"text":"20號左右那就是希望在明年1月5號之前全部完成發放那為什麼我要在這個時間發放其實大家也都非常清楚這個時候可能剛好是訊期中間我們希望在訊期前能夠趕快發放結束大家都知道台灣如果訊期來的時候不管是水災天災或者是地震等等這些基本的訊息如果從這樣子一個紙本裡面得到的話會很快可以知道怎麼處理比較好"},{"start":8771.289,"end":8789.197,"text":"所以我其实也想要公开呼吁大家有拿到的我都觉得每一个人要在那个背包里面就先放了这一本我觉得这个非常重要因为这里面有提醒我们其实可以开始准备背包啊什么的对不对好然后在最后一页把它剪下来也可以对对对我们都已经开始研究怎么用了这样因为这确实非常的重要"},{"start":8789.637,"end":8806.767,"text":"所以我要說我要給予內政部跟國防部還有相關跨部會不管是從內容編轉到印製到發放我們也會因此動用到非常多第一線的工作人員我想要在這邊公開感謝他們大家一起幫忙那再來我也想要問一下部長有關於這個在野黨委員說要修國籍法這件事情然後甚至不同在野黨的總召他們還說要請部長其實要從兩岸人民關係條例來看可是我自己的看法是認為我們應該一視同仁什麼意思呢"},{"start":8819.534,"end":8844.111,"text":"只要你原來的國籍不是中華民國國籍你是外國國籍進到台灣來不管是透過婚配系統進來然後你有意願從政或是你有意願擔任公職我們就回到國籍法來看相關規定我個人認為這樣才是合乎法理制的我想要問一下部長你這邊今天早上所收到各式各樣對您的質疑或是對這個法律條文適用的質疑你怎麼看"},{"start":8845.212,"end":8859.357,"text":"可能我自己個人的並不是說的很清楚但是在我們內政部所主管的這個國籍法20條裡面的每一個字都非常的清楚就是如果他已經擔任公職在一年內的話都要放棄中華民國以外的外國國籍"},{"start":8860.097,"end":8875.911,"text":"沒錯那我們根據行政院112年告訴我們說中華人民共和國的國籍其實就是外國國籍那所以內政部根據這樣的指示非常清楚跟兩岸人民關係條例或者甚至無限上綱到憲法的話其實我覺得大可不必"},{"start":8876.771,"end":8896.233,"text":"這裡面呢第一個我們並沒有藍綠之分大家都知道如果你要修國籍法的話呢只為了陸配來修國籍法但是這個國籍法是針對中華民國以外的任何國國籍不管是日本美國甚至是像蘇聯或對不對俄羅斯或是其他的國家你本來就是要有效忠的問題"},{"start":8897.034,"end":8906.94,"text":"我們對國家效忠只有一個不會只有兩個那如果你針對陸配的部分的話反而會更落入說是屬於政黨之間對於政治上面的解讀不同我覺得希望不要從這個角度來解讀更何況我們的公務員他們都依法行政這個部分包括我們在前一年"},{"start":8917.126,"end":8927.769,"text":"處理這個南投縣的議員叫石雪燕她當時也按照我們台灣的這個行政的這個訴訟或者是訴願的在打這個官司我們也都尊重只不過她當時訴願的結果是被打回對不對被駁回的不太一樣那所以呢我覺得說特別不要針對陸配呢有這種歧視性的對待我們沒有歧視性的對待我們只是認為說中華民國跟中華人民共和國是分屬於兩個不同的國籍"},{"start":8946.613,"end":8962.74,"text":"而且台灣的中華民國的主權呢完全不可以在這個地方做任何的讓渡那我個人想要再補充一個比較簡單可能一般人民會更聽得懂的如果我們開了這個特別的大門而且是只針對單一國家而且這單一國家是中國而且"},{"start":8963.16,"end":8984.122,"text":"每天對著台灣叫囂不管是飛彈 飛機甚至破壞相關各式各樣的海欄設備讓國人處於這種不安的焦慮的狀況下我認為這樣的修法是在降低中國對台灣滲透統戰的成本而這樣的修法竟然是領著中華民國納稅人薪水的在野黨立法委員提出我認為更加的荒謬"},{"start":8984.702,"end":8989.204,"text":"所以我非常支持部長剛說的非常的清楚同時我也想要補充也想請部長幫我確認我們除了對待中國是這樣其實對待其他的外國國家我們一樣一視同仁用一樣的規定對嗎沒有錯其實我們有一些包括曾經擔任過立法委員譬如說我們的蕭美琴副總統她也是根據這樣子在一年內放棄她的其他國的國籍"},{"start":9010.191,"end":9038.565,"text":"那還有更早以前有一位立法委員叫李慶安他也是因為美國國籍不管是因為立法院做的決議等等這些我們都是按照這樣的程序來辦理所以其實我們對於中華民國以外的外國國籍並沒有特別的歧視說只歧視中華人民共和國只要是外國國籍你要到台灣來而且你是擔任公職你要對我們的憲法或是對我們的國籍做宣誓效忠的時候你不可能有兩個國籍一起效忠"},{"start":9039.165,"end":9052.362,"text":"對沒錯好謝謝部長我想我說的非常的清楚我要公開呼籲希望在野黨就此停住不要提出這個荒謬的修法好謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員的發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":9072.166,"end":9101.224,"text":"主席有請部長還有國防部副部長好這個今天談這個台灣全民安全指引大家會有一些這個考量就需要就是因為我們雖然你們的報告都寫得很清楚"},{"start":9103.769,"end":9122.062,"text":"這主要就是緊急動用第二一倍金行政院的第二一倍金非常緊急的動用第二一倍金這個國防部而且是國防部來印製所以4279萬元然後這個內政部花了2171萬元總共"},{"start":9134.397,"end":9156.568,"text":"6450萬元所以大家才會是不是要打仗了就會有這樣的疑慮而且是國防部緊急編印所以這個部分這個印了就印了但是很重要的既然隨時要打仗隨時要打仗這是事實"},{"start":9162.479,"end":9190.627,"text":"這裡面防空避難設施這個誰的業務 防空避難設施是內政部還是國防部那個我們的準備工作是放在警政跟消防看天災或者是人禍的部分那現在防空避難設施的這個安排到底有沒有很周全你講的安排是什麼意思是不是每個村裡都有"},{"start":9192.153,"end":9221.279,"text":"是不是每個村裡都有 我是不是請警政跟消防跟您回應一下好 請說好 委員跟委員報告一下所有的防空避難的一個設施它可以分成兩個單位第一個是監管機關跟警察機關沒有 我只是問你是不是每個村裡都有基本上一定是每一個村裡應該都有完全錯誤我們看這個我們就擠瑞穗香就好了我就從透過你的指引"},{"start":9222.25,"end":9249.486,"text":"透過你的指引去查了以瑞穗鄉來講就這幾個啊就這幾個主要是在這個四七啦有那個地下室的啦對嘛那我們沒有地下室的村裡怎麼辦呢對不對那些防空避難設施以前的防空洞要不要重啟啊"},{"start":9251.175,"end":9276.842,"text":"對不對 要不要重啟 好不好所以這個我希望你們重啟嘛防空洞啊 不然我們沒有地下室的那個村裡怎麼辦呢基本上是就近了那剛剛委員說提的防空以前的防空洞的部分我們再來研議 好不好那就請那個國防部副部長也請回座那個我們劉部長我們談另外一個議題"},{"start":9284.485,"end":9311.999,"text":"這剛剛也做了決議國有財長法第46條這個法例一直沒有修正也沒有廢除國有耕地得提供為放租放領之用然後由內政部會商財政部擬定報請行政院核定之包括第二項也是一樣這個國有耕地放領實施辦法也一直都沒有廢止"},{"start":9313.715,"end":9341.228,"text":"也都一直有效的一个办法这里面规定的很清楚国有耕地放领对象为中华民国65年9月24日以前已承租该国有耕地自本办法发布时仍继续承租使用之农民依法换曰承租使用之农民或由其继承人"},{"start":9342.263,"end":9368.511,"text":"繼承成豬使用之農民事實上過去內政部在民國九十幾年的時候的內政部一再的跟行政院要求必須依法行政要繼續辦理但是你看當時的行政院這個當時的行政院並沒有這樣做最主要就是說在"},{"start":9369.656,"end":9399.092,"text":"民國96年的時候民國96年的時候行政院停止違法停止辦理這個工地放年這是整個原由是這樣所以絕對應該要依法行政而且是要符合憲法的相關的這些規定"},{"start":9400.782,"end":9429.91,"text":"然後呢這是土地法第25條我們就想地方政府的現有土地或私有土地直轄市或縣市政府對於其所管公有土地非經該管區內民意機關同意並經行政院核准這個程序這是地方自治最基本的原則公有現有的土地"},{"start":9431.901,"end":9446.551,"text":"現有的土地或是直轄市有的土地他經過民意機關同意報給你內政部內政部應該要趕快報行政院來核准我們看這個台東台東縣政府在今年的11月11號"},{"start":9460.926,"end":9486.62,"text":"提出了這個台東市新年段79地號無比非公有的現有土地現有非公用耕地現有非公用耕地11月11號報行報行政院當然是先交給內政部內政部什麼時候可以送行政院來核准部長"},{"start":9489.415,"end":9504.97,"text":"報告委員這個是屬於個案的部分我再回去查查一下但是也跟委員報告委員非常清楚這個所謂工地放領那目前我們就是工地放領原來有的這個行政辦法我們沒有更改"},{"start":9505.49,"end":9515.182,"text":"所以才會有65年以前的原則或者是跟養殖用地相關那中間有停辦三次都是因為天災1999年921地震2004年桃枝颱風2008年是莫拉克颱風"},{"start":9522.39,"end":9541.441,"text":"所以國有耕地裡面如果現在是山坡地跟國土保安有關係的話大概就不會在這一次的工地放你的範圍那剛剛我在回應其他委員關心的時候是以國有平地耕地以及養殖用地為主部長你提到了96年之所以這個停辦停止辦理當初啊"},{"start":9545.592,"end":9573.62,"text":"是依這個國土富裕策略方案及行政計畫它是一個行政規則這第一個 第二個當初的考量我們正在制定國土富裕條例草案但是這個草案而言而且這個草案後來就決定不定了把這個國土富裕的這些規定全部一列到國土計畫法"},{"start":9575.219,"end":9604.8,"text":"都移类到国土计划法了所以现行的法例规定人民不能取得私有的土地只有两个法例一个是土地法14条另外一个法例是另外一个法例是这个水利法83条寻常洪水位的土地才可以不得私有所以"},{"start":9605.646,"end":9634.541,"text":"部長我們要依法行政只要是符合國有財產法以及相關的這些法律尤其是憲法的規定所以我要請部長趕快把這個這是現有的工地現有的耕地所以請部長趕快這個函報給行政院來核准可以嗎"},{"start":9635.59,"end":9661.008,"text":"報告委員我們現在已經會要求包括台東縣政府在內不一樣這是縣你剛講的我有聽了那個你答覆那個黃昭偉的質詢我有聽了你講你能管的是國有的國有的耕地你才要按照那個程序屬於縣有地方所有的部分你就要按照地方"},{"start":9662.252,"end":9691.265,"text":"只要只有土地法25條啊只有土地法25條你就依土地法25條來處理好不好土地法25條我剛跟委員講過這個個案的部分我們要研議後再辦理好嗎就依法辦理好謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員的發言接下來我們請羅美玲委員發言"},{"start":9698.291,"end":9703.401,"text":"謝謝主席有請國防部副部長請國防部副部長羅雲好"},{"start":9708.172,"end":9734.945,"text":"副部長好首先本席要肯定國防部跟相關的部會合作製作了這本《台灣全民安全指引》這個手冊其實也獲得了我們歐洲勇盟的肯定內容有涵蓋的天然災害敵情威脅還有民防避難的資訊雖然說我們有網路版跟數位版可是有考量到部分高齡長者不熟悉線上下載的資料再加上危機來臨的時候可能也會斷電"},{"start":9736.726,"end":9759.719,"text":"斷網等等所以覺得說普發這個紙本的手冊其實有它的這個必要性所以本席在這領域肯定可是我們還是有忽略了一些弱勢族群例如說行動不便者臥床者視障人士還有天障人士還有需要這些需要特別協助的這些照顧族群我發現在這個手冊裡面我們沒有看到說"},{"start":9760.559,"end":9769.147,"text":"要教導一般的民眾在災害的時候如何協助這些弱勢者因為我有發現就是說其實我們這個諮詢的機構單位其實有內政部教育部經濟部農業部還有衛福部"},{"start":9777.034,"end":9792.604,"text":"環境部跟抒發部等等我也不曉得當初那時候衛福部針對這個手冊怎麼沒有給予這方面的這個這個建議那為什麼本席會特別留意這個部分因為我有發現像日本日本最近呢他正在演繹一項計畫就是說在這個暫時如果要處理因應這個長期避難或者是疏散的時候呢"},{"start":9801.289,"end":9829.589,"text":"他有特別就是留意到像高齡者住院患者等等的支援的措施而且日本的計畫預計是要在2026年的時候就要制定基本的藥齡所以我是在手冊裡面並沒有看到這個部分所以請問副部長當初我們在制定手冊的時候是不是說有一些部分我們還沒有比較周詳的部分這以後有沒有辦法來做一個精進"},{"start":9830.79,"end":9848.018,"text":"報告委員謝謝您的指導我想當時在考量因素的時候上衛福部有提出來像有些年長者長照的或醫院的這樣子的一個情境那我們想說這一次是先普發來看大家意見為什麼因為"},{"start":9849.248,"end":9868.878,"text":"各方的意見都很多專家學有很多意見那最後檢討是說如何把這個意見中整起來比如說放在QR code去掃這個QR code那這些東西都是什麼都是在我們日後在各方意見發下去以後不足的地方我們要來彌補也謝謝委員提醒像這些我們也考慮到比如說這些弱勢團體比如說他"},{"start":9872.833,"end":9885.962,"text":"眼睛看不太好的需要這個長者看不清楚的這些等等我們都聽到意見了那如何去改善那我想這都是日後我們要精進的地方對像有些譬如說聽障者好了你也許有這個警報警報也許他聽不清楚像這個的話我們如何來做協助"},{"start":9895.568,"end":9922.385,"text":"這部分我在這個冊子裡面我是沒看到這個部分也許就像副部長所提到的可能還在收集一些意見可是我在想竟然要發當初應該要設想的這個周全尤其是針對這些弱勢族群的話我是覺得真的很需要民眾而且不是他如何協助自己而是一般民眾如果發現這種狀況的話我們是要如何協助這些弱勢族群我想這個部分應該也要"},{"start":9923.285,"end":9947.839,"text":"列进这个手册里面这个我们未来会考量对 因为本席也看到日本其实也在拧定相关的这个计划所以我想这个部分应该有台湾可以借进的这个地方所以也希望就是说国防部未来在制定相关的这个手册的时候应该要多一些考量这部分的话 请副部长请回再来我要邀请的是内政部刘士芳部长"},{"start":9955.824,"end":9977.205,"text":"接下來我要提到的就是有關你這個消防警報像過去的話在疫情期間彰化橋友大樓發生了這個火警的警報可是第一時間大家都不覺得說這個是真的發生火災大家都覺得說這可能是一個測試一個testing所以到那時候就發生了一些讓人家遺憾的一些傷亡事件"},{"start":9977.825,"end":9992.545,"text":"那後來後續也是你看我們2023年2024年陸陸續續都有發生就是說大樓的這火警的警報響了可是大家就是有些網友說啊天啊怎麼都沒有看到有人在逃好像大家對於這個消防警報呢"},{"start":9993.325,"end":10001.372,"text":"沒有一個說我立即就要逃的這種反射動作對 那以後遇到空襲警報也好 海嘯警報是不是民眾也都會認為說這其實就是一個測試沒有那麼立即性的這個危險那也許因為這種想法會造成一些讓人家遺憾的這個後果"},{"start":10012.941,"end":10019.565,"text":"所以像這個的部分我們要如何提升這個一般民眾對於這個消防警報的謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分呢為什麼我們發放這個手冊就是告訴大家說那個意識要提升啦不是說大家跑你再跟著跑而是你要先跑那這個意識的提升呢我相信我們未來消防安全的教育上面一定會再加強那同時呢我們大概會有這個你剛講到海嘯的部分第一個海嘯的話我們中央氣象署也會發"},{"start":10041.539,"end":10047.027,"text":"然後警察的系統也會發那還有如果時間來得及的話我們搭配地方的警察會用廣播車的方式像這次艷澀湖因為這個村里長辦公室的廣播系統壞掉那警察同仁趕快用他們手上的麥克風去處理這一塊"},{"start":10057.242,"end":10084.36,"text":"那這個部分未來在消防演習的時候我們會把這個所謂的消防警報的警鈴是不是不要造成所謂的狼來了這樣的效應會在做意識上提升的教育對 所以目前看到的就是說也許空襲警報 海嘯警報這個部分的話當然是同跟這個消防警報雖然是同一個議題可是消防警報可能是大家接觸的最頻繁的"},{"start":10085.941,"end":10101.431,"text":"一個議題可是我們發現說現在有很多的民眾都會覺得像部長剛才覺得說狼來了狼來了所以每次遇到消防警報大家都覺得說這可能又是一個測試這可能不是真的有火警發聲所以這個部分我想這部分應該要來做加強"},{"start":10102.231,"end":10115.881,"text":"那這部分的話因為我們在公共場所裡面的火災警報他們的火警送運總機接收到信號就會產生這樣的一個警報那對於這一個各個場所的一個管理權人怎麼樣來加強他對這個設備的"},{"start":10118.603,"end":10133.593,"text":"維護 同時能夠來反應萬一有警靈真的響的時候他要第一時間啟動他的智慧消防編組來引導他的客人趕快的往這個安全梯往外來疏散我們會來持續的加強宣導我們確實都有一些SOP可是我們就發現現在就是民眾的這個心態這個如何要提高他們這個警惕我覺得消防署的同仁"},{"start":10144.241,"end":10158.393,"text":"他們都會盡到我們的這個責任去做宣導但是如果大樓的管理委員會他們的主管或者是大樓管理委員會裡面的管理人員也搭配他們的一個廣播系統會更有效因為"},{"start":10160.375,"end":10187.39,"text":"聽剛剛副署長跟我講說也許有的警鈴可能是漏電或幹嘛的會有出現這個狀況但是無論怎麼樣要提升全民的這樣危機意識你只要聽到警報響無論怎麼樣先逃生比較重要這個部分我們未來會來加強就是重點就是部長後面所提到的就是提高民眾的警覺性提高他們就是說我聽到這個警鈴其實我第一個想法是"},{"start":10188.03,"end":10201.599,"text":"真的可能有火警要發聲我要先逃而不是覺得說我遇到的這可能是測試目前現在很多大家都覺得說這是測試所以都沒有在逃就發生了危害的狀況好這部分的話還是要再加強了OK好以上謝謝"},{"start":10205.767,"end":10224.092,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員的發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在接下來我們請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":10225.332,"end":10240.26,"text":"賴世保委員賴世保委員不在請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷不在請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在"},{"start":10243.021,"end":10267.788,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢答詢結 詢答結束委員丁學中 高靜淑美 鍾嘉斌所提書面質詢列入紀錄攤登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關部相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並資 複資本會本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":10318.499,"end":10318.98,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"}]}},{"id":"165793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103f3b3e2fcba1be2fb408e1b0d34147d14d262ea90fa57e994eabdaf21c288ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:01:57 - 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可以可以既然你們在這個整個災害應變的時候是"},{"start":348.059,"end":375.538,"text":"協調所裡面有記作分工但是人民不清楚所以裡面趕快記協調就是委員我再報告一下就是說在協調所的當中我們那個指揮官紀連城指揮官有在跟我們協調例如說在光復掩埋場飄出來的垃圾到農田附近那這個就是農業部主政然後如果土砂把這個農田掩蓋的大概600公頃剛剛那個大概10公頃另外一個600公頃把那個農田蓋住的話"},{"start":376.319,"end":385.638,"text":"這兩個都是農業部在主政好 那個趕快去協調 好不好可以 好 謝謝好 謝謝政委 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"165792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103c9c9bdf93185c3e2408e1b0d34147d14d262ea90fa57e994e7f89b699d3b680b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:54:26 - 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你知道就點頭 不知道就搖頭很長喔 對不對那其他委員會為什麼這麼精簡經濟部 國發會在隸屬經濟委員會 就經濟兩個字 對不對那交通部也瞎管很多嘛 就叫交通委員會"},{"start":45.547,"end":64.887,"text":"然後司法法制多兩個字教育文化多兩個字除此之外財政這樣那為什麼我們這委會的這個整個證明這麼長你知道主要原因嗎 不知道那主席是不知道 不知道"},{"start":67.269,"end":91.95,"text":"他的全名叫做社會福利基於衛生環境委員會那我必須要特別跟部長講說台灣就是要打造一個社會福利一個多樣然後非常非常興盛的一個福利國家我想這是一個打造的目標但是我們把打造的目標放在最前面後面最重要最重要的強化的這樣的一個重中之重還是在環境"},{"start":93.502,"end":112.833,"text":"所以當環境好了環境好了 很多事情可以迎刃而解環境不好了 衛生醫療的支出會增加社會福利就會遭受到排擠所以我是用這樣來詮釋我覺得環境部是在整個這個未緩委員會來講是重中之重"},{"start":113.953,"end":136.531,"text":"然後看到部長這麼積極的因應相關的一些作為參與在其他的國家這樣的一個代表台灣爭取很多的這樣的一個訊息的流通還有國家的整個地位的這樣的一個提升然後打造這個整個全世界的對環境保護的這樣的議題的這樣的一個"},{"start":138.432,"end":161.329,"text":"一個展現我想這個對台灣都是一個非常正向的幫助但是我們要在國外講的非常理直氣壯那在台灣的環境保護就真的要做到實質的有一定程度的這樣的一個進步跟進展我想這是無庸置疑的那我現在回歸到我今天要特別強調的主題請部長看一下頭影片"},{"start":163.528,"end":188.56,"text":"這個蘇丹隆 一個蘇丹隆 尤其是紅色真的很恐怖陰影籠罩全台 史丹魯環真的是名存實亡為什麼要這麼講 兩年 這兩年台灣民眾持續籠罩在蘇丹隆的恐懼之下去年是辣椒粉用吃的 今年是連化妝品都有 用抹的當初因為平安的事件 所以行政院提出了史丹魯環的構想並在105年成立了讀畫局"},{"start":189.72,"end":199.353,"text":"作為食安環的第一環112年更改制為環境部化學物質管理署同時也制定毒性及關注化學物質管理法"},{"start":200.407,"end":229.787,"text":"那這一切就是要落實源頭的管控嘛這個法律當時琢磨很深的除了主席之外還有我然後我們至今你有沒有自己貪白了我們如今這個蘇丹瓦的原料不斷從國外被進口並且用在食品化粧品上每次都是食藥署查驗到這也很奇怪那環境部在這個地方的功能是發生什麼事情這是第一件事情"},{"start":230.747,"end":257.248,"text":"那這次出問題的是紅色護髮原料紅色護髮原料是從新加坡進口那進口商現場超過5批5批中就有3批驗出大量的這個蘇灘紅的這個紅色素 蘇灘紅色素分別是在今年1月 2月 10月然後這些原料提供給我們台灣的14家業者12家的化妝品業者製成產品在台灣販售"},{"start":259.913,"end":274.398,"text":"環境部的化學水質是源頭的管理無庸置疑但是在蘇灘紅的辣椒粉還是這次試驗中我覺得化學水質的源頭管理似乎已經把只有 似乎只有是把蘇灘紅列為毒化物"},{"start":276.352,"end":299.3,"text":"那就這樣而已就沒有其他具體的作為單純進口的蘇丹農或列管的化學物質、毒化物流向是很好追蹤去管控的嘛 對不對但是齁 但是這是基本功啊你目前的蘇丹農、辣椒農或是這次富豪的原料在國外已經混合調製好的產品輸入國內等於是毫無監管 毫無門檻"},{"start":301.745,"end":320.165,"text":"這是很奇怪一件事情嘛然後 去年蘇丹農是有人檢舉喔沒有人檢舉也不知道要讓民眾吃多久那這次是因為國際間傳出有化妝品參入蘇丹農的這色素原料的訊息才促使食藥署動起來才發現這個蘇丹農化妝品已經在台灣內部販售了是這個樣子喔"},{"start":324.673,"end":348.266,"text":"所以我這邊就要提醒說環境部必須要面對這樣的一個課題如果在邊境就可以發現這些劣管的化學或毒化物的原料甚至於這個是護方的部分只要有 它被我們滅滾了只要它被我們關注的這個相關的化學物品基本上哪怕它是護方 比例多少我們都應該列為追蹤"},{"start":350.592,"end":378.802,"text":"不然這件事情會層出不窮所以我是希望我們要確保這些不會再流到所謂的食品廠或是藥裝廠甚至會不會有另外什麼樣的產業我都不清楚所以我在本週三有特別在這個變更議程再加一個有關於此次蘇丹農化專品的專案報告我要請環境部當天一定要提出如何強化源頭管理的監導報告"},{"start":379.98,"end":388.371,"text":"可以吧 可以啦齁好 署長你要不要 署長啦 署長 你是部長部長你請坐 我不請你起來 你說你會說兩句嗎你會說的話我才說 我時間要夠"},{"start":393.615,"end":414.696,"text":"你講不好我就告訴你兩句而已來第一句謝謝 謝謝委員那這個部分我們禮拜三會跟大家來做報告那簡單跟各位報告一下基本上化學物質的管理在我們台灣市各個部門依照各自的法律去管理所以像比如說這上面講的這個蘇丹紅4號"},{"start":417.299,"end":438.136,"text":"目前是依化妝品衛生管理法去做後面的一個監督跟管理這個是大家分工合作去進行的對 大家分工合作去進行但是我剛剛提到的問題基本上好像他這個副方進來的時候你們也沒有辦法去掌握也沒有辦法去管控也不曉得他的流向"},{"start":441.212,"end":449.81,"text":"這個源頭管理是不是有很大的盲點還是當時我們在修電網的過程裡面有遺漏什麼地方是不是要牽涉到神安火的修正了"},{"start":450.951,"end":469.729,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟食藥署來做討論目前在化學署這邊的規定就是1ppm以上比如以這個來講它今天檢測出來的只有1.3ppm它的濃度其實是低於我們在獨管法你剛剛講1ppm 現在講1.3ppm不是 我說1%1%"},{"start":472.551,"end":497.763,"text":"我們管的是1%化妝品這一邊的現在檢測出來是1.3ppm遠低於我們現在在獨管法裡面所管的那個濃度所以目前的整個在安健護的權責裡面是由食藥署依照化妝品衛生管理法的規定要去做後面的追蹤但是這個直接從邊境進口進來的時候"},{"start":501.522,"end":521.596,"text":"食藥署就必須要去做檢測進來的時候財政部海關這邊跟食藥署這邊就要去做一些申報勾結的一個這一些的一個管理這次的資料都會在化學雲端裡面看得到目前是這樣化學雲端就是在這一個範圍裡面沒有功能"},{"start":522.802,"end":534.225,"text":"沒有 沒有任何的分配上的責任這件事目前的情形是在食藥署那如果高於1%以上那我們這邊就會要求"},{"start":536.512,"end":551.758,"text":"進口或者是輸入的或者使用的都要去取得核可還要申報相關的資料這些資料我們都可以進行相關的勾結但是現在到這裡有個問題嘛你說一定要高於1%你們才會就是連結到你們對不對"},{"start":553.979,"end":568.786,"text":"這個業者他可能要進口業者他之前會規避這樣的一個比例嘛他如果每次這樣規避比例他永遠就是沒有辦法被你們所查緝到嘛可是他可以依照目前食藥署可以依照化妝品管理法"},{"start":569.426,"end":589.131,"text":"的規定去做後面的勾肌跟後面的追蹤所以你現在提醒我就是說食藥署從頭到尾就是沒有很積極的然後很認真的然後去做勾肌然後去接到這樣子的訊息的時候他才願意主動去查驗才有辦法去把這些抓出來是不是這樣 呃其實沒有沒有你那天 禮拜三的時候你就必須要這樣講清楚喔嘿"},{"start":590.311,"end":615.381,"text":"我不是要叫你們活熊吐槽啦因為食安團太重要了每一個部位有一定的功能那原種管理基本上我一直會認定是在我們環境部嘛那但是剛剛聽署長這麼講還是有這樣的一個一個任期上的一個分門別列的責任的歸屬嘛這個我要尊重啊 對不對那我們是要討論這樣的一個制度是不是有檢討的空間還是我要討論說這個制度定在這個地方那是有執行單位"},{"start":617.522,"end":633.836,"text":"況持他的職務才導致每每都要接收到檢舉還是什麼訊息他們才有辦法在邊境裡面去查緝大法這不對啊 這我們當時七年修了八次的食安法那顯然在立法上就有很大的疏失啊我們也必須要檢討啊"},{"start":636.497,"end":660.747,"text":"對不對跟委員報告齁那個食藥署是依照產品的後端去做整個一個查驗是 它是產品後端 對他們查驗到化妝品裡面有這一些蘇丹紅4號所以後面就啟動了相關的預防性的下架的這樣的一個措施對 它是成品之後他去查驗嘛他是接到這樣的國際間的訊息嘛他才去做這個動作嘛"},{"start":661.727,"end":680.08,"text":"那我現在強調的是這些東西這些原料進口商把這些有檢出蘇丹農4號的紅色防原料進口進來在邊境進來的時候到底誰應該負起更大的責任嗎我要強調是這樣啊是你環境部還是你食藥署"},{"start":682.699,"end":696.758,"text":"市長現在沒辦法打呼我沒關係我們星期三請你把相關的一些應應作為跟檢討報告你就提出來我們好好來討論好不好好謝謝因為時間到了請回部長你還是坐著我再講一下主席給我一點時間因為我請長都給你很久時間"},{"start":700.342,"end":720.135,"text":"在部長任內 臺灣連續兩年被這個看守德國公佈嘛這個氣候變遷表現指標CCPI的為後端班我知道部長很不服氣啦剛剛在詢詢答覆的相關的這些委員的時候都有特別提到那本起來是要還是要請部長看一下這一個看守德國的數據他是會說話的"},{"start":722.937,"end":739.365,"text":"2024、2025到至今2026我們台灣是從61名又上升到59名嘛 對不對表示台灣仍然在進步只是這個進步齁 有一點比較不如預期嘛 好但是台灣的民視緩慢在進步同時還有一個數據 也請部長看一下2024是36.94、2025是34.89、2026"},{"start":745.157,"end":761.898,"text":"會不會來到這個33.64這個媽媽氣候行動聯盟這個徐理事長特別提出平衡方式跟過去一樣但多數國家的分數都在下降這會不會顯示整體全球對氣候變遷因應的動力正在減弱"},{"start":763.263,"end":784.038,"text":"這是一件事情那這些數據其實真正正在發出警訊全球對抗氣候變遷的態度意思是不是正在隨著政治環境的改變有鬆懈或是緩慢腳步台灣是不是也如此那本期預測明年看守德國給出來的平穩及民智可能都會更差"},{"start":785.222,"end":799.479,"text":"那部長知道 知道什麼原因嗎我在這邊提供 今天有很多委員特別追尋你啦上上週 這個兩個禮拜前啦 就14日我們立法院已經通過 三讀通過針對太陽能的環評法在沒有經過本委員會的一個討論下"},{"start":800.66,"end":817.417,"text":"也沒有公聽會 那草案直接近乎二讀那在野黨當然也能數啦 這個優勢就通過了嘛這個現有國有地 大致上就這樣太安人的新環評法 國有地 公有地不論規模皆需環評 大致上這樣嘛山坡水面型 5公頃以上 100萬盒以上需環評 不分地別"},{"start":818.418,"end":841.217,"text":"這應該是40公尺或是40百萬瓦以上灰屋頂光電皆需環屏應該是沒有錯然後報導就出來了嘛葉哲祈禱工協會陳棟喊出台灣能源轉型大挫敗更有葉哲表示大大大大我就不需要再講了產業如為政治鬥爭下的這樣的如同棄嬰嘛但是我現在"},{"start":843.098,"end":869.676,"text":"在部長這個國家氣候變遷對策委員會中的一個報告積極設定減碳性目標這不定不可嘛如果依照目前這個狀況環境部明年要如果跟看守德國解釋台灣正朝向這個綠能轉型我們可以逐步在2030 2035達成減煤20% 9%同時再生能源分別可以提高到30至36%"},{"start":871.807,"end":897.848,"text":"這你寫的嗎 這你報告的嗎這都沒辦法我們跟經濟部有討論 我跟人員所討論有一個版我很擔心因為這個法過了之後整個再生能源的產業會重挫然後這個目標很有可能都會達不到所以委員你提到的明年的優先真的是我們現在的優先"},{"start":899.4,"end":922.474,"text":"再看兩則新聞 不只如此 我們要跟國際建軍部長才剛剛從巴拉圭回來而已嘛 韓國綠電佔比以橫耍台灣業者講什麼話就不再講了啦他們的日照時數都沒有比我們台灣多咧他們現在的佔比橫耍台灣 這是很衝突跟矛盾的啦另外一個是他們的總統 李在民總統確實百日 藍藍人員路線轉向綠電"},{"start":925.716,"end":953.541,"text":"總統有意 他們李總統有意暫緩新核電廠能源交由環境部掌管 大致上是這樣講強調 他們強調這個能源政策應集中在同一部位以加快解決問題的速度另外一個 透過再生能源 再生能源滿足陸域增長的電力需求是唯一可行的解決方案這個我大致上截取重點 這是他們這個新任的李總統特別明確的 公開的這樣做這個表達"},{"start":954.701,"end":970.99,"text":"那我現在要請教部長目前問題已經不是在看走德國的公佈數據到底公不公平是本席本來就希望能迎頭趕上韓國這樣能源轉型的先進國家我們台灣現在人用超車是不是未來連車尾燈都看不到"},{"start":972.171,"end":985.664,"text":"還有 面對這樣的狀況 環境部要如何因應新法的產業衝擊是要用環評法的程序 還是你要降低暗場的環評壓力還是有相關的配套措施"},{"start":988.63,"end":1004.938,"text":"繼續來努力這個綠能然後台積電他未來可能還有很多很多產業未來面對的綠能的這些情況的這樣的一個占比這樣的檢探這個很多面向都必須要再做討論還有經濟部現在已經規劃要加強屋頂太陽能那環境部"},{"start":1008.88,"end":1025.946,"text":"修法已經過了一週多了我現在沒有看到我們環境部有實質的一個處理的方向不曉得要不要簡單的說明一下我們現在其實經濟部有要求說要跟我們來討論說因應這樣的一個新的修法我們的衝擊有多大是不是要提出一些想法出來那目前我們還在研商當中"},{"start":1026.966,"end":1040.145,"text":"那我是認為是依照目前的這樣的做法的確對再生能源的一個發展會對臺灣造成很大的影響那這個就影響到我們未來的產業他在淨零的目標裡面達不到國家的要求這個後面的影響是非常大的"},{"start":1041.257,"end":1055.536,"text":"好 我還是希望部長盡快做相關的一些然後具體的書面資料就給我們做參考最後 我在為什麼這次在總質詢我選擇經濟委員會我特別跟卓院長講對不起 把他降級了卓院長講 廚餘"},{"start":1059.401,"end":1088.248,"text":"處理的事情不能再拖了一個台塑從原有幫原先政府10噸拉到30噸都可以做了台灣沒有任何的理由 中央政府更沒有任何的藉口在講說最後的這些處理養豬的方式不能解決中央承擔起這樣的責任啦要快速的因應啦擴大可以處理量能轉化為有機質的回料的地方"},{"start":1089.315,"end":1110.491,"text":"一瞬間一個步驟然後快速的趕快的去做溝通去做積極的怎樣的一個資源到位就可以馬上解決掉了我們不能再花生一次我們中央也責無旁貸啊不能再拖了 拜託部長 謝謝我們這個禮拜 這禮拜會希望有一個結果謝謝 謝謝謝謝部長 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造船等戰略領域的產業發展與技術研發"},{"start":1906.445,"end":1934.459,"text":"高士首相也高度重視台海議題就任其今持續公開重申台海和平穩定的重要性不過高士首相在本月7號在日本國會答辯就台灣有事之事態認定做出較明確的陳述結果引發中國強烈的反彈中國以戰狼外交等激烈反制"},{"start":1935.521,"end":1964.537,"text":"日本在立場與務實求取平衡來對應針對高市首相在國會的答辯中國駐大阪總領事薛健率先發難中國外交部也發表聲明抨擊另外召見日本駐中國大使金山憲至強烈抗議中國也同時發動一系列的經濟脅迫的措施"},{"start":1966.564,"end":1991.599,"text":"包含呼籲中國公民在近期避免赴日本旅遊以及留學宣布停止進口日本水產等等措施面對中國強硬作為日方則召見中國駐日大使吳江浩就薛某不當言論表達強烈抗議要求中國必須妥適應處"},{"start":1994.396,"end":2021.171,"text":"並強調高市首相答詢內容系基於日方的一貫立場另外指派外務省亞大局局長金錦正章前往北京與中國外交部亞洲司司長劉進松會議協商不過事後因為中國官媒以流氓插手褲帶訓示金錦局長等照片進行大內宣激怒了日本輿論"},{"start":2022.85,"end":2050.885,"text":"日中關係緊張到現在都沒有趨緩本部的觀察與檢析高市首相在國會針對純利危機事態進行答辯基本上仍然遵循日本政府既定的立場答詢為第一點以首相身份在國會殿堂並就第二點所謂台灣有事之事態做出較明確的陳述"},{"start":2052.045,"end":2080.129,"text":"引發部分輿論質疑高市首相發言似乎逾越了歷代政府的見解並引起中國的強烈反彈然而本次中國一連串舉動擴大了衝突致使日中關係陷入僵局加以目前第二軌議員外交管道的萎縮壓縮了戰略的迴旋空間"},{"start":2081.428,"end":2108.988,"text":"短期內僵局可能會持續下去日本政府迄今對於所謂台灣有事是否構成純利危機事態一律以必須依個別情況綜合判斷而定難以一概而論來進行說明並未明確回應實務上所謂台灣有事牽涉的情形甚廣如果台海發生衝突"},{"start":2110.248,"end":2119.899,"text":"日本政府決策除了涉及高度政治判斷外也將受美國態度及日本社會與疫情等諸多因素影響"},{"start":2121.343,"end":2140.665,"text":"另外一方面 當前日本輿論普遍的對台灣友好重視台海的和平穩定以及促進台灣與日本友好的交流已經是日本政界普遍共識高市政權內閣閣員多為長期與我們台灣互動密切的政要"},{"start":2142.045,"end":2160.219,"text":"今後我方亦善用高市內閣友台的力量推升台日關係同時持續多方佈局強化經營國會各黨派的人脈確保日本有我的力量得以持續穩定推動我們台日關係的發展"},{"start":2163.817,"end":2173.23,"text":"結與日中關係緊張已經引起國際社會的關注美國國務院首席副發言人皮格特 也聲援本案"},{"start":2174.295,"end":2199.762,"text":"台美日共享自由民主人權及法治等基本價值觀面臨共同的傳統與非傳統安全挑戰今後我國將以總和外交為羅盤三略戰略為指針推展多邊全面夥伴關係謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝吳次長接下來進行報告的是由國安局張副局長"},{"start":2212.338,"end":2230.899,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席今日日本首相高市早苗台灣有事說及安保三文件修正對區域安全及台海穩定之情勢延期專案報告"},{"start":2232.148,"end":2254.896,"text":"高市早苗今年11月7日在國會答詢稱台海有事可能構成日本存亡危機事態後引發中共強烈反應本局緊究日本高市內閣立場情勢發展及影響評估向大院各委員報告如此一日本高市內閣立場"},{"start":2256.741,"end":2279.529,"text":"首相首次纏民台灣有事11月7日在野立憲民主黨眾議員岡田克也在國會質詢台灣有事議題提問假如台海遭中共封鎖情況是否符合日本安保法中得以行使集體自衛權之存亡危機事態高市首相表示"},{"start":2280.589,"end":2298.801,"text":"若中共動用軍艦伴隨使用武力以及透過武力阻止美軍解除台海封鎖均可能構成存亡危機事態屆時日本政府將綜合考量所有資訊做出判斷依法定程序啟動集體自衛權運用武力支援"},{"start":2301.755,"end":2329.882,"text":"二 推動修正安保三文件日本原定二零二七年檢討修訂國家安全保障戰略國家防衛戰略防衛力整備計畫然因應安全形勢變化尤其中共 俄國 北韓安全威脅加劇高市主張提前於明年完成修訂戰略文件必加速防衛體制轉型強化防衛裝備延產"},{"start":2331.522,"end":2343.58,"text":"放寬防衛裝備輸出規範並達成防衛經費佔比GDP-2目標二 情勢發展中共運用複合式有限度手段施壓"},{"start":2344.81,"end":2373.471,"text":"外交方面 中共外交部 國台辦國防部等部門發表恫嚇言論並取消原定11月下旬日韓中文化部長會議輿論方面 透過官媒操作日本間諜竊密 琉球地位未定論等敘事經貿方面 發布赴日旅遊 遊學警示暫緩民間藝文交流活動以及終止重啟日本水產品進口"},{"start":2374.485,"end":2401.172,"text":"在揮袋及軍事方面渲染中共海警船在釣魚台12海里內例行活動以及在黃海岸際小型火炮射擊火炮射擊的位置跟時間詳如次頁圖配合徵訊的操作企圖透過複合式有限度脅迫手段施壓日本撤回言論與讓步二 日本堅定立場違反緩和局勢"},{"start":2403.55,"end":2421.116,"text":"日本已宣布不會撤回首相涉台言論強調此系秉持嚴所當嚴立場重申台海核穩對日本及國際社會穩定至關重要一半判以和平方式解決台海失誤日方並要求中共"},{"start":2423.387,"end":2447.403,"text":"託處駐大阪總領事薛健恫嚇言論同時透過內閣官房長官外務大臣說明首相言論無關日本政策調整且不涉及主權問題另外 日本外務省派遣亞大局局長訪中呼籲避免讓特定事件損及雙邊關係三 美盟強調共維台海和平穩定"},{"start":2448.942,"end":2458.726,"text":"七大工業國集團G7外長11月12日發表聯合聲明強調台海核穩重要性反對片面改變現狀企圖"},{"start":2460.492,"end":2488.991,"text":"美國國務院11月20日表示對美日同盟的承諾堅定不移無論在台海、東海、南海美國均堅決反對片面改變現狀企圖包括使用武力或脅迫手段美國駐日本大使格拉斯除批評中共對日本經濟脅迫外亦速度強調美日同盟穩固將續與日方共為台海及區域核穩"},{"start":2489.932,"end":2516.003,"text":"美軍11月17日更與自衛隊在東海及沖繩周邊空域舉行連線美日派遣F-35A戰機及B-1B轟炸機等先進軍機近30架規模較以往擴大展現美日同盟聯合作戰及嚇阻能量三 影響評估一 日中矛盾 短期難調和"},{"start":2517.543,"end":2545.422,"text":"日中關係陷入各數立場僵局雙方對立氛圍明顯短期不易轉圜日本雖不願爭端擴大然亦不願屈從霸權可能蓄踩堅定立場尋求溝通原則應對中共或持續操作經貿脅迫 輿論操作揮帶襲擾等作為並拉攏日本在野製造內部分化"},{"start":2546.857,"end":2550.252,"text":"以及以上B官對高市內閣進行施壓"},{"start":2551.601,"end":2579.197,"text":"二 高市安保改革强化嚇阻能量高市内阁强化安保能量致重于与美国安全协作一方面加强第一岛链防卫部署推进自卫队与驻日美军指管作战整合扩大在南西诸岛周边军事存在另一方面以美日同盟为主轴加大与南韩 菲律宾 澳大利亚协同行动"},{"start":2580.518,"end":2594.594,"text":"與東南亞國家協建海事能量以及推進與歐盟北約協作推展區域友盟集體防衛網絡強化嚇阻能力三 國際體認台海核穩重要性"},{"start":2596.038,"end":2619.043,"text":"中共不滿日本首相國會答詢內容展開複合式施壓並形塑日本外交官在北京俯首聽訊形象 引發國際關注中共對外脅迫行徑 凸顯台灣有事並非僅為日中雙邊爭議 實以牽動 因害區域安全及國際秩序穩定"},{"start":2619.983,"end":2645.418,"text":"国际社会已更加警觉中共扩权威胁民主友盟亦持续公开宣誓确保台海和平稳定维护自由开放印太之重要性至结语中共以军事 亏待 经济及外交胁迫手段企图片面挑战区域现状破坏区域和平与稳定我国更需参与国际友盟网络"},{"start":2646.398,"end":2653.465,"text":"強化戰略溝通及合作共為印太及台海安全秩序本局將續掌收"},{"start":2654.929,"end":2681.323,"text":"印太安全情勢及日中關係動向根據緊密與國際友盟情報交流合作機先掌握情勢變化以相助政府決策及應變整備提升我國我國家安全韌性及能量以上報告敬請大會大院委員先進不定指導並持續對本局工作給予大力支持謝謝謝謝副局長請回"},{"start":2682.857,"end":2702.526,"text":"我們接下來開始進行詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記那如果本會同仁有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出我們在11點左右是會議的情況來進行處理首先進行詢答委員是陳穩康委員"},{"start":2713.004,"end":2718.008,"text":"主席 有請外交部次長以及國安局副局長兩位來 兩位請"},{"start":2728.929,"end":2745.414,"text":"两位首长好这个大家都承受了这个很大的压力面对国际动态局势的变化那么听取了今天双方有一些很深入的报告我这边提出一个建言第一个我们跟日方的沟通"},{"start":2746.721,"end":2763.696,"text":"不要用台湾有势用台海有势台海是一个怎么讲一个是泛战略性的议题就说台海有势是中共出招台湾有势对中共来讲是外力介入所以用台海有势台海的范畴没有明确的定义"},{"start":2764.477,"end":2785.463,"text":"但是台湾有事就变成属于管辖权主权问题就特别复杂了所以第一个用台海有事当台海有事的时候它会链接到南海东海甚至到朝鲜半岛台湾海峡每天通过的货柜运输量占全球的25%"},{"start":2787.799,"end":2792.474,"text":"那么这个经济的量在海线交通上占全球的15%"},{"start":2796.428,"end":2822.763,"text":"台海有事 中国大陆也有事为什么呢中国大陆在长江外面的阳山港舟山群岛除了战略除油以外阳山港是全世界最大的货柜码头它一个阳山港的吞吐量超过美国所有港口的总和一年进出的货柜4730万个货柜"},{"start":2825.074,"end":2850.496,"text":"这个货柜又占了中国大陆吞吐量进口40%台海占全球25%这个25%里面有到台湾有到日本到韩国到中国大陆但中国大陆又占了进口的40%这个支持它的一带一路如果台海有事中国的一带一路也受损所以用这种方式来函结没有赢家"},{"start":2851.909,"end":2871.489,"text":"如果起冲突大家都是输家所以要维持区域性的和平对等跟友善的盟邦对话这是很重要的另外就是说我想两个单位除了看了中方的威责恐吓的言辞以外还有日本的论述以外"},{"start":2873.086,"end":2899.073,"text":"我们对这个对话过程还有中间谈话的过程除了文件内容以外请问两单位有没有对这个政治思想或者是心理学去判断他们谈话的心态我给您看一下这个照片国际谈判除了事后分析这个谈话的内容以外聚焦四个重点眼神方向 嘴部表情"},{"start":2900.373,"end":2927.114,"text":"脸部表情嘴角的示意肢体的距离你看左边上面这个习大大在看这个高市首相的时候我看你怎么说那高市首相是顾左右言他一个是用硬实力去压对方一个是说我有软实力你在看右下角这个图你看这个川普总统说我看你说什么那"},{"start":2928.944,"end":2941.255,"text":"這個高市首相是說你想聽什麼因為川普總統是說我用銳實力但是首相說我有韌實力所以在這種國際情勢中間政治是在務虛"},{"start":2942.819,"end":2968.687,"text":"产业经济是要务实国家力量是靠整合最后是要发挥任实力今天这个谈提到了日本在日本政府在2022年修订了保安三文件安保三文件第一个国家安全保障战略它的英文版就是国家安全战略national security strategy然后国家防卫战略"},{"start":2970.253,"end":2997.186,"text":"防卫力量准备计划这三个跟美国实际上1986年的高尼法案是一样的美国有国家安全战略然后有国防战略美国在2017年把它的四年期国防总检取消了QDR取消了改成四年发行一本国家安全战略然后军事战略我们国家我一直本席一直在强烈建议我们政府"},{"start":2999.175,"end":3012.649,"text":"国家安全法是反渗透防止别人对我们的内部破坏跟国家安全战略毫无关联国家安全战略最主要是整体国家利益做跨部会整合的"},{"start":3013.55,"end":3031.456,"text":"表述最主要是基于你的国家安全战略对于你的国家核心利益外国政府有一个明确的了解这个我们在任何场合都建议我们政府在这个任内一定要推出我们的国家安全战略那我们目前还在学习美国的QDR"},{"start":3032.917,"end":3055.532,"text":"从上一个版本43页对国家安全战略里面的言辞只有1.5页4年后今年出的版本变成59页了对国防讲了大概4页国防报告书也增加了从4页变6页但是这个相对跟我们的友邦友好国家跟日本比起来差太多了"},{"start":3056.417,"end":3075.331,"text":"日本有韩国有这个当然美国是原企英国澳洲都有所以我们这个方面一定要有一个发展出的战略不然呢就说跨部会的协商就会产现出弱点那我请教一下这个自由开放印太是哪一年开始的FOIP这没关系啊这个"},{"start":3087.102,"end":3096.181,"text":"习近平在2013年启动了一个他的所谓的大战略就是一带一路原来叫OBOR后来叫BRI"},{"start":3098.036,"end":3125.372,"text":"那美国在川普总统在2017年就启动了自由开放印太作为对应但是这个FIP完了以后他觉得不够他又成立一个亚太经济机构就是IPAF那都是有对应性的东西那从这个结果我们去看下一张我们对所有的论述就是日方的立场日本的态度日方解义他的意涵"},{"start":3126.345,"end":3148.532,"text":"来看中国大陆它的立场 它的态度 它的行动这是分析的方法论我们通常都是写一篇报告就是有点像战斗文学但是没有结构性的分析这个图你可以看到日国人的态度他认为国家存亡及经济发展的关键在台海安全"},{"start":3149.412,"end":3174.833,"text":"台海不要讲台湾如果台湾的贸易经济受损是全世界都受伤因为你的晶圆进口输出料配件输出你的电力中断所以用台海取代台湾问题这是一个比较好的比较宽容的方法跟所有的友邦接触中国大陆至于他不容外界干涉他这个讲话我们看看就好再看下一张"},{"start":3177.059,"end":3205.461,"text":"这个日向高市它的安保东西修正的东西这就是我刚刚提出的我们要建议我们的政府在这个任内一定要公布我们的国家安全战略那才有国防战略那要把QDR四年期总减改成国防战略最后才是你的军事战略那提升GDP我们每个国家的总和不一样那有自己的因素这里面有美方的反应有中方的反应"},{"start":3208.018,"end":3217.447,"text":"最后就是讲到第一岛链是拒止中共军事向外扩张的一个重要防线美日安保条约是必要的军事合作法规"},{"start":3218.735,"end":3246.488,"text":"我們中華民國在台灣是不能缺席的地緣戰略的樞紐但是高市對這個話講出來有什麼影響比較加劇了中日之間的猜疑增添了美國大國競爭中的變數也牽動了台海和平穩定的複雜程度所以我們的一個回補修正的建議就是說不提台灣問題而用台海問題是比較容易解套的"},{"start":3247.088,"end":3274.698,"text":"另外一个就是说封锁台海是一个意识上的名词它并没有blockade zone的范围涵盖所以说它可能用的是cursive quarantine用微折的这个临检它不需要封锁了因为现在每一条船根据这个IMO的你的这个要求都有你的国旗你的数码装载从哪到哪都可以知道所以在海上要拦检是很容易根本不需要"},{"start":3275.498,"end":3303.787,"text":"宣布的封锁所以我们的方法做到和平发展的国家目标以及国际社会的共同期待原则和平必战战备胜战而且要能战止战那做法就是国防民生合一维持两岸对话交流参与国际有盟的机遇我拿这些东西作为像这个次长跟副局长做一个建言我看看是不是请教一下这个次长您给我们一些回应"},{"start":3310.416,"end":3338.122,"text":"報告委員我想你的說法跟我其實是我的說法跟你都一直很類似的我去歐洲在談的我現在其實都不是談說幫忙台灣而是怎麼樣台海的和平穩定安全是大家共同的利益所以大家要盡力去維護台灣的共同利益因為就國際關係就外交上的現實他們為什麼要幫我們有時候也講說沒有那個理由所以共同維護台海利益就是符合那個委員講的我一直說"},{"start":3338.962,"end":3361.438,"text":"朝著方走謝謝委員的建議謝謝副局長這邊您謝謝委員那剛委員提的這個觀點很感謝委員提出來的指導事實上我們看到國際聲稱很多包括美國歐盟日本相關的美盟國家都強調台海和平的穩定跟至關重要至關國際的一個重要"},{"start":3361.918,"end":3384.33,"text":"所以這個部分是符合現在的一個趨勢也把台海穩定相對保障了我們台灣的安全所以這個部分後續我們會按照這樣的一個論述來去做密切的觀察國際情勢的變化 謝謝委員指導謝謝 大家共同努力 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳漢委員請回 兩位請回接下來進行巡禮委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":3394.579,"end":3407.958,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局張副局長好 副局長請你回應之後很忙喔好 歡迎"},{"start":3409.112,"end":3426.573,"text":"副局長好 我先回答一下陳永康委員剛才所提到的FOIPFOIP是安倍首相在2016年的時候所提出來的地緣政治戰略的一個概念剛剛好像兩位都沒有回答OK 好 我們回到今天的主題"},{"start":3428.275,"end":3446.868,"text":"剛剛的報告對於日本借制定和平安全法制跟修改安保三文件持續提升鶴族跟應酬能力的整個時間序跟修正的過程是講得非常的清楚我們大約再來回顧一下2015年的時候"},{"start":3450.97,"end":3475.236,"text":"安倍首相他的內閣就提出了平和安全法制然後引進了純利為基事態的概念容許日本在極端情況之下行使集體的自衛權2022年的時候安保三文件修訂了首次把台海和平寫進日本最高層級的戰略2023年到2025年一直到現在日本開始進行部署跟民防"},{"start":3480.457,"end":3505.33,"text":"民防政策的調整這個部分可能後面我還會跟副局長來做一個討論再來2025年10月高市內閣上台之後基於中國還有俄國跟北韓的軍事壓力所以宣誓要強化防衛跟啟動安保三文件的改定而且這三文件的改定原先預定是在2027年完成它現在要提早的2026年就要來完成了"},{"start":3507.092,"end":3522.228,"text":"我們現在回到剛剛在報告裡面一直有提到所謂台灣有事這件事情高市在11月7號的時候接受在野黨委員的答詢的時候有提到台灣有事的情境"},{"start":3522.828,"end":3551.568,"text":"那剛剛我有看到報告這是外交部所提到的他就說現在就是因為提到是個案的問題台灣有事就提到個案的問題其實我剛剛還蠻讚同陳永康委員所提到的如果用台海有事的話可能比較不會觸動中國的這個敏感的這個神經因為他特別提到這個個案所以中國整個人就跳起來了不過我們來看這個這個高市首相他提到的其實他並沒有"},{"start":3552.509,"end":3557.657,"text":"跳脫這個平和安全法治的這個所謂的這個純利危機事態的這個概念他其實就是說如果說因為這個台海發生了這個"},{"start":3568.472,"end":3575.818,"text":"戰爭或者是說遭受到中國的武力的威脅然後呢進而構成日本的存亡危機事態日本是可以行使集體自衛權是剛才我們所提到的2015年的時候其實就已經提出了這個概念所以他其實他整個言論其實並沒有脫離這個概念所以他講的這些的話其實做過民調日本的媒體曾經做過這個民調"},{"start":3593.512,"end":3614.428,"text":"高市的內閣現在支持他的這個有高達72%而且56%的受訪者對高市內閣對中國的態度是表示肯定的那當然中國是非常的跳腳甚至呢提出了斬首說那現在呢他利用這個透過旅遊啊輿論跟這個經貿等等都對日本提出了這個"},{"start":3615.769,"end":3620.774,"text":"强烈的抗议再来的话我想请问国安局像除了刚刚我们所提到的日本要强化防卫然后要提早推动安保三文件的修订另外我们还有特别留意今年三月份"},{"start":3637.489,"end":3647.256,"text":"日本政府他首度公布一項計劃他說如果台海局勢發生衝突的時候日本政府將動員包含了自衛隊 海上保安廳船隻還有民間渡輪跟飛機在6天之內要撤離12萬沖繩仙島群島的居民跟觀光客"},{"start":3661.426,"end":3673.484,"text":"前往九州及山口縣等地安置而且這個計畫預計會在明年的四月份來實施演練再來日本政府他還會進一步"},{"start":3675.632,"end":3693.792,"text":"研議有關高齡長者住院病患的支援措施預計2026年制定基本的這個基本的這個要領等等那好那相較於日本的這麼的憂心我們如何看待這件事情他們好像連這個部分"},{"start":3695.273,"end":3721.925,"text":"對於我們不要說台灣有事好了對台海的這危機他們有做了這些的動作那我們國安局如何在評估就是說日本對於這個台海危機是不是非常的有心因為他們已經有了這些的部署的動作了是跟委員報告首先委員提到第一點就日本今年3月發布了這個"},{"start":3723.752,"end":3727.446,"text":"民防避難計畫就我們了解這是日本在"},{"start":3729.366,"end":3753.973,"text":"國家安全保障戰略裡面有明定的它有明定就應該盡快制定沖繩群島跟仙島諸島它的一個居民的避難計畫所以我想針對日本政府針對它國內的安全需要去明定這些計畫這個我們表示尊重我們不在本局可能不合適去公開臆測日本政府的一個立場"},{"start":3754.833,"end":3768.509,"text":"那另外一個就是高市第二個問題委員提到就是說高市內閣上台以後呢多次強調要修改修訂這個安保三文件那我們看到"},{"start":3770.1,"end":3799.232,"text":"高斯内阁其实有强调是基于一些区域安全形势的变化包含中共包含俄国包含北韩的威侠加剧他们希望透过修改这些安保文件来提升他们防卫的能量我想这个防卫能量是基于在跟美国充分的协作还有跟美盟在印太美盟之间的加防协作来共同维护区域的安全我想是朝着这方面在做进行"},{"start":3799.953,"end":3799.973,"text":"那"},{"start":3801.161,"end":3829.044,"text":"至於委員第三個問題就是這次中日風波會不會造成灰色地帶的衝突加劇目前我們看到中共的反應目前是以幾個面向第一個就是外交面向包括透過外交部 國台辦 國防部等等陸續的發表東核言論以外主要還是透過經濟脅迫包括剛剛提到的"},{"start":3831.436,"end":3855.168,"text":"終止已經恢復日水產品的進口還有發布旅遊跟求學赴日旅遊求學的警示等等這些動作救揮帶軍師的部分我們看到目前沒有明顯的一個增強的趨勢大概都還是在例行性的一個範圍裡面包括最近有所謂開設在"},{"start":3858.345,"end":3867.84,"text":"在江蘇北部開設兩個作戰管制區就是射擊管制區其實那是一個例行性的射擊訓練並沒有特別的現象發生"},{"start":3873.749,"end":3888.574,"text":"近期也在渤海那個地方大連西南開設一個禁航區那個禁航區事實上也是一個例行常態開設大概兩個禮拜會開設一次大巴是做武器租源的測試所以目前我們看來"},{"start":3889.674,"end":3904.2,"text":"到目前為止沒有看到這些軍事也好或輝帶的這些微破的一個具體的升級的趨勢但我們也不排除後續會有一些變化所以本局會持續的關注這些情勢的發展"},{"start":3905.103,"end":3919.96,"text":"OK 副局長跳得很快我本來先問第一題 第二 第三題結果你就自己把一 二 三題給回答了我本來想說第一題可以聽得更多可是國安局居然就說這個部分你們不便來做這個評論可是我們今天有看到一個報導"},{"start":3921.141,"end":3948.167,"text":"日本甚至要計畫在距離台灣最近的漁納國島要來設置飛彈部隊我想這種種的一切其實就像我剛才所提到的日本對於台海的衝突其實是未來可能會發生衝突這件事情應該是抱持著非常憂心的一個從它種種的部署我們可以看出一些他們有憂心的部分"},{"start":3948.547,"end":3963.625,"text":"那當然台海的這個核穩是,我在想是應該是印太地區大家所期待的,當然取決於這個中國的這個態度。台灣人本身也是希望說台海能夠核穩,能夠維護,共同來維護我們區域的這個安全。"},{"start":3968.73,"end":3979.315,"text":"剛剛副局長有提到到目前為止中日雖然發生了外交的風波可是還沒有跡象看到說有其他所謂軍事灰色地帶的衝突有增溫的現象看起來中國到目前為止可能是用經濟、用旅遊等等來做一個制裁"},{"start":3990.721,"end":4018.658,"text":"到目前為止都還沒有看到灰色地帶的衝突發生不過這個部分的話台灣基於第一島鏈的一個很重要的一議員來講的話我在想這部分也是我們中日的外交風波應該也是要台灣要特別留意的一個地方謝謝國安局 謝謝副局長 謝謝羅美玲委員 請回接下來進行巡達委員 陳俊宇委員"},{"start":4032.15,"end":4036.109,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 我們有請外交部吳政次來 吳次長請"},{"start":4042.506,"end":4071.621,"text":"好 次長早好 次長我們看到這個高市首相在上任後這一個月來不斷延續先前友台的立場那也承襲了過往這個安倍首相他的路線重振日本在印太戰略當中一個核心的地位那也提到更明確的一個政策立場來因應威權主義國家在區域當中日益增強的這個威脅還有影響力"},{"start":4072.861,"end":4086.45,"text":"近期備受關注的台灣有事說則是延續了安倍首相在2021年提出的相關的論述同樣的論述不但仍然符合區域的局勢"},{"start":4088.666,"end":4107.753,"text":"更看到中國表現出比先前更強烈的一個反應據報導指出中國的駐聯合國代表傅聰已經在上週五致函給聯合國的秘書長就相關的言論闡明中國政府的一個立場"},{"start":4108.753,"end":4125.028,"text":"信中不但聲稱高市首相的言論嚴重違反國際法更表示必要的時候會行使聯合國的憲章和國際法賦予的自衛權和堅定的捍衛國家主權和領土的完整"},{"start":4126.633,"end":4143.151,"text":"但是在我們觀察到目前為止除了美國國務院對日本的聲援外國際社會至少比較少有反應或表態而次長您上週也到歐洲參加了柏林安全會議"},{"start":4144.392,"end":4162.443,"text":"就您所了解國際社會是否會理解並且認同高市首相的台灣有事說先前我們採取的是觀望和沉默的反應對台灣來說到底是利或是弊報告委員"},{"start":4165.575,"end":4189.687,"text":"高市首相講的就是11月7號啦我11月11號去歐洲去歐盟然後去柏林我覺得一般來講對於歐洲而言其實就如同剛才我提到就是說不是說幫助台灣或幫助誰啦台灣海峽的穩定現在是大家非常重要的利益"},{"start":4191.104,"end":4200.324,"text":"那裡面跑完就是說有太多的商船都要經過台灣海峽那歐洲外交上當然都不是火上加油"},{"start":4201.633,"end":4229.637,"text":"那所以我的感覺是怎樣一定要從其他方面去觀察各國的反應那我們就從G20最近高市去參加我們可以看到高市跟那義大利的手下Meloni非常熱烈的擁抱從這方面我們可以看到其實歐洲國家絕對是要降低可是降低那個風險可是對於中國的那個總領事在日本發言這麼激烈發言我想大家都是非常不以為然"},{"start":4229.977,"end":4246.182,"text":"所以我有提到一些私下談話有人講說像這樣情形是要立即召回可是立即召回也是會升高外交的那個那個對立嘛所以我們看到目前為止是沒有這樣的情形可是我覺得那個氣氛是怎樣台海的穩定絕對是最重要"},{"start":4246.662,"end":4268.703,"text":"目前在這個地方 極力擴張軍備的不是日本 而是中國所以我是感覺就是說對我們來講 遇到我們有越多的朋友一定是越好日本 歐洲跟美國 我自己這樣的感覺對於台海穩定這個共同力的力量是越來越強化"},{"start":4269.804,"end":4281.701,"text":"那這個利益正好就是我們台灣現在也要維護台海的安全穩定維護自由民主的利益是一致的所以在這方面我是看到一個全世界的一致性"},{"start":4283.564,"end":4300.585,"text":"那這次這個高市首相只是延續既定的一個立場反映地緣政治的現實就遭到中國這麼強烈的報復那基於台日之間的這個友誼我們理應有實際作為來支持日本像是在社群上"},{"start":4301.266,"end":4320.064,"text":"我們聲援鼓勵國人到日本旅遊或是支持水產等等但是我們對於所謂台灣有事的事態是否有充分的理解和共識就如同我們外交部的業務報告當中指出實務上所謂台灣有事牽涉的範圍及"},{"start":4321.966,"end":4335.422,"text":"階段盛廣那日本會就實際的這個情況中和來考量而我們因為和日本之間沒有制度性和同盟的這個關係也會基於我們國家安全的這個考量來做出相關的這個因應"},{"start":4336.363,"end":4351.362,"text":"那倘若接下來台灣和日本要從友好關係邁向安全同盟的關係對此我們外交部是否有實際的規劃或作為來增進台日之間對於台灣友事共同因應的基礎"},{"start":4352.791,"end":4368.494,"text":"報告委員我以外交部的立場以及國際縣市來講實質跟盟邦跟日本來維護共同的利益共同利益跟台灣海峽的穩定安全我想是最重要的"},{"start":4369.435,"end":4374.661,"text":"一個安全條約的建立以目前中國的立場我覺得不見得是 我說簽一個正式的安全條約不見得是最好的方法我舉個例子 烏克蘭在1994年跟美國跟英國跟蘇聯 那個時候蘇聯"},{"start":4390.578,"end":4393.599,"text":"簽訂了一個和平安全條約保障烏克蘭的安全因為那時候他們放棄了核武這是正式條約2004年跟中國也簽了一個維護和平的安全條約因為他們加入中國的一帶一路有世界四大強權的條約安全保障可是他仍然被侵略了"},{"start":4416.405,"end":4429.592,"text":"實質進行跟其他盟邦的安全合作我想目前是比較務實的一個做法外交部在這方面我們也努力跟日本求這方面來做至於正式條約的簽訂我想目前我們並沒有這樣的一個做法"},{"start":4436.636,"end":4440.797,"text":"市長你還漏掉一個中國跟香港的50年不變對 沒有錯香港的民主本來是一個國際安全條約的保障是中國跟英國在1996年簽的但是因為世人認為香港是中國一部分你一旦被視為是中國的國內事務的家務事任何國際安全條約都保障不了所以我們外交部的做法是絕對避免"},{"start":4465.181,"end":4479.812,"text":"讓世界各國認為台灣是中國的國內事務或家務事務接下來我想以日本最西端也是最南端的與那國島來和市長您做一個討論"},{"start":4480.768,"end":4507.038,"text":"在這個高市首相先生的這個談話當中他也曾經以這個與那國島只距離台灣的距離只有110公里為例那以此說明台灣有事必然會牽動到日本的一個相關的安全那這一座島與人口總共有1600多人在天氣晴朗的時候甚至從宜蘭的蘇澳就能用肉眼看得到"},{"start":4508.478,"end":4512.16,"text":"日本去年因應台灣有事擬定針對沖繩12萬居民的撤離計畫與國島同樣具有高度的戰略意涵"},{"start":4519.045,"end":4547.053,"text":"日本自衛隊自從2016年進駐160人的沿岸監視隊後來又進駐了電戰部隊未來還預計部署飛彈等等我們也看到防衛大臣小泉進次郎在昨天到與那國島視察同時試圖爭取地方的支持以推動後續的基地還有裝備的相關部署我想請教次長就是從與那國島的位置來看"},{"start":4549.115,"end":4555.79,"text":"它對於美日台之間的安保有何重要性那我們是否應該建立常態的對話或協調的相關機制"},{"start":4559.008,"end":4588.087,"text":"我想日本是個主權獨立的國家日本對於保護自己領土的安全有權利做他所要做的所有事情當然這個條件不能威脅到其他國家就這一點 雲納國島因為離台灣很近日本強化在上面的軍事設施我認為基本上是有幫助於維護台海的安全所以我們當然是對於這樣的事情 我們覺得"},{"start":4588.847,"end":4609.882,"text":"是對我們的國家利益事實上是有幫忙的因為日本對台灣基本上是沒有領土的聲張跟敵意的那對於跟日本是否要進行這樣的對話我想跟日本各方面的對話一直在進行當中因為日本現在被我們視為是like-minded country就是理念相近國家"},{"start":4610.742,"end":4623.372,"text":"那美國跟日本就台海的安全當然我們希望跟兩國要進行充分的合作讓我們這個地區的自由和平民主可以繼續維持所以對話我們一定是有持續在進行的"},{"start":4625.205,"end":4643.615,"text":"因為台灣和雲南國島之間我們有這個地緣性還有歷史因素的相關的情感那在2023年的時候我們當時游錫堃院長也曾經率同中央和地方的首長還有我們觀光及醫療業者前往雲南國島交流"},{"start":4644.255,"end":4667.648,"text":"那希望能夠推動雙方觀光和直航的相關開放不過後續似乎沒有太大的進展那除了島上的這個設施量能問題外似乎也和軍事部署有些關係我們從近期的這個新聞得知由於島上面臨沒有醫生進駐也缺乏藥劑師的這個醫療困境那對於島民的日常需求可能相當不便"},{"start":4668.248,"end":4694.275,"text":"既然今年已經有基隆到石垣島的航班作為先例那我想請教次長我們是不是應該加強和與那國島往來能否促進民生物資還有醫療物資的建立流通管道在觀光交流上順利推動直航有沒有可能我想我們樂觀其成你就四個字而已我們樂觀其成那你也太摘要了"},{"start":4695.535,"end":4718.108,"text":"希望我回答我可以再說明一下我想我們的在對於協助友好鄰國的有關人道還有各項的文化交流醫療我們覺得我們一定會這樣做我舉個例子我們太平島有沒有在其實離我們非常遠我們在那邊的許多設施都是在協助菲律賓跟越南可能會有困難的難民"},{"start":4720.729,"end":4737.775,"text":"所以台灣透過像這樣的一個人道醫療的協助來促進跟我們友好國家的關係我想這就是我們外交部我們政府一貫的政策 謝謝好 以上 謝謝陳俊宇委員 次長請回好 接下來進行詢問的委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席 有請次長"},{"start":4750.367,"end":4751.148,"text":"市長請委員好市長好現在就是有關於我們"},{"start":4763.45,"end":4786.182,"text":"日本的高市首相目前的言論造成國際的紛擾及國內的不安我想請教一下有關於台灣有事構成日本的存亡危機事態的說法涉及到日本在台海的問題上可以行使集體的自衛權"},{"start":4788.666,"end":4804.993,"text":"的條約和時機高市首相的說法不只是針對中國大陸直接對台動武要擴大到中國大陸以戰爭目的封鎖台灣日本也不排除行使集體的自衛權那次"},{"start":4810.199,"end":4819.831,"text":"賴總統以吃日本隨常表達支持日本你認為日本議論怎麼看待這個事件你怎麼樣的一個看待"},{"start":4823.595,"end":4839.34,"text":"我看到的是日本語論對於高市的說法的支持度是增加的我講日本 日本的語論我看到的數字是已經增加到80%以上具體回答說日本國民的反應"},{"start":4841.736,"end":4863.039,"text":"那你覺得賴總統吃這個日本的水產他這個態度是表達支持日本那你的看法呢中華民國台灣的國家利益有很重要一點是台海地區的和平穩定安全"},{"start":4864.008,"end":4886.468,"text":"那中華民國台灣的一個很重要的國家利益其實這不是現在才開始我相信是從你針對回答我的問題對那我現在就是要回答委員的問題就是說跟日本保持友好這是我們1949年來一直就是這樣歷任總統我們跟日本都是要維持友好的國家利益"},{"start":4887.348,"end":4914.482,"text":"所以這下任何動作來維持跟日本的友好關係我想這都是必要的我想我們兩個都要面向我們跟對岸一樣的態度友好的態度跟日本一樣友好的態度本來就應該要有這種態度那日本外務省有沒有經由任何管道表示感謝賴總統吃日本的水產台灣媒體報導回台灣"},{"start":4917.609,"end":4938.583,"text":"這些不管是在電車 公車在日本的電車公車包含街頭曝光經由台灣媒體報導回台灣這些照片是我國刊登的嗎還是總統府出現以及外交部出現 有沒有"},{"start":4940.851,"end":4952.276,"text":"再跟委員報告一次就是說外務省是否有表達我想這一點我並不清楚我現在就回答你了這個感覺上"},{"start":4955.148,"end":4971.474,"text":"好像出口變什麼內銷的一個廣告那日本並沒有那麼熱烈啊是國內大內宣嘛大內宣總統吃日本水產的這樣的一個廣告嘛"},{"start":4972.114,"end":4984.776,"text":"所以我們講一個日本包含輿論媒體和政府對依賴總統吃日本的水產的這件事情的反應也沒有那麼強烈嘛所以在有支持的聲音"},{"start":4986.451,"end":5014.751,"text":"主要還是中立表述其外交向生顯然賴政府這種這波操作在台灣內部的這個宣導效果比在日本更大那另外就是本席從賴總統的表演和政府的反應看來我們似乎很高興日本將台灣納入他的集體自衛權的範圍那自衛權包含個別和集體"},{"start":5015.892,"end":5040.718,"text":"雖然在聯合國憲章在第51條赋予所有國家自然權利但是大多數國家行使集體自衛權還是要透過軍事同盟條約來確立義務關係行使條件和範圍請問一下次長 既然高市首相表達"},{"start":5041.698,"end":5060.908,"text":"台灣就是日本集體自衛權的行使範圍我國政府也樂見於此外交部是否有意藉此機會向日本尋求軍事同盟簽訂同盟條約駐日單位有沒有應作"},{"start":5062.589,"end":5078.862,"text":"你回答報告員 降低衝突仍然是最重要的最近有一位中國記者在聯合國詢問了聯合國發言人Stefan他的一個回應其實他只要重提2758號重提那樣的意見"},{"start":5080.042,"end":5103.158,"text":"聯合國的回答也是說降低衝突是聯合國最重要的一個目的所以我想我們不管跟日本跟歐洲其實我這次去歐洲大家的反應就是要降低衝突所以剛才委員特別提到吃日本料理我們台灣人百分之百喜歡吃日本料理既然日本沒有反應那我們就把它視為正常其實我們不必誇張"},{"start":5104.028,"end":5126.326,"text":"那目前台灣並沒有尋求跟日本簽訂正式的軍事同盟這樣的一個做法因為簽訂這樣的不一定會有幫忙你們既然都熱見移植對高市這個首相的這樣的一個態勢跟態度我們是不是剛好藉此機會來尋求這個所謂的軍事同盟啊"},{"start":5127.206,"end":5154.004,"text":"或是簽訂同盟條約啊是不是那對於我們台灣國土多一份保障嘛報告委員我剛才其實有回答過尋求簽訂正式軍事同盟並不一定是保障安全最好的方法烏克蘭就是最好的例子他有四國目前世界上最強大的四國美國 俄國既然我們都已經表達友好關係我想我們藉此機會跟日本來談"},{"start":5155.324,"end":5177.521,"text":"這些軍事同盟條約或者是這些盟友條約嘛所以進一步對我們台海 台灣的保障嘛所以這個就是你要回答就是對於國內既然我們樂見於此那是不是我們就可以藉此機會來尋求這樣的一個同盟條約嘛這是我的本席的建議"},{"start":5178.021,"end":5202.212,"text":"好不好 謝謝委員 我們可以做這樣的那更進一步齁 集體自衛權是涉及到是國家那但是日本首相在法理上是不承認我國的國家 國家地位那外交部是否藉此機會尋求在日本的法理上承認中華民國的國家地位有在進行這樣的一個想法嗎"},{"start":5204.524,"end":5218.028,"text":"報告委員長期而言尋求中華民國正常的國家地位廣泛為世界各國承認這絕對是外交部非常高的目標那以現在中國習近平主政下的中國我們現在反而是尋求中華民國的穩定安全和平 民衛得以捍衛這是最重要的一個事情"},{"start":5229.031,"end":5256.044,"text":"當然很多目標是必須要時間的所以長期而言甚至中長期而言尋求我們的國家中華民國正常的國家地位被世界全面承認這絕對是我們全力以赴一定遵照委員的指示去做因為你們執政太久了但是進度如何我們大家國內都看得到所以你們要檢討跟努力另外就是以我們縱觀來看"},{"start":5257.665,"end":5278.577,"text":"我們以地緣政治和歷史的角度你認為中國大陸政府對於日本高市首相關於台灣有事構成日本存亡危機事態的說法反應是否過於激烈因為本席問題特別提到地緣政治和歷史角度"},{"start":5279.117,"end":5294.481,"text":"主要是因為整件事情之所以先然踏脫那重點其實不是日本支持台灣而是高市首相的言論等同於直接表明日本將不受"},{"start":5295.001,"end":5316.12,"text":"日本和平宪法的耶稣而是日本作为二战的发起国及战败国这番言论牵动到整个东南亚和平格局的改变所以这个就是我们今天讨论的重点我们以地缘政治和历史的角度"},{"start":5317.165,"end":5330.653,"text":"日本應該要有所言論上要有所保守不要刺激到兩岸之間跟我們台灣的台海的緊張的關係次長你回答這個問題"},{"start":5332.199,"end":5347.089,"text":"國安委員我作為中華民國的外交部次長我不宜去評論日本首相的一個言論只要沒有傷害到中華民國的外交關係"},{"start":5348.703,"end":5372.937,"text":"那我這次去再強調一遍就是說我這次去都是所謂的理念相近國家都是支持自由民主的那基本上我在歐洲得到的反應確實中國的反應過於激烈中國在於日本所說的所以你現在已經承認日本的言論 高市的言論過於激烈嘛這是一個重點吧沒有沒有 我剛才沒有講過我說讓國內知道這樣的一個言論這樣的一個言論對我們國內的"},{"start":5378.28,"end":5398.466,"text":"好 台海或是國內的情勢 絕對不利的 好 以上好 謝謝市長 你剛才講的是日本嗎我剛才講的是日本 就是那個對於中國啦中國的反應過於激烈 主持要講清楚對 抱歉 外交部如果態度講不清楚是是是 請回 好 謝謝好 來 請在社保委員進行詢答"},{"start":5404.717,"end":5413.404,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的吳次長以及國安局的張副局長兩位長官一起來 兩位請我的時間很短主席要控制很嚴格請兩位長官盡量的一個要簡短的回答"},{"start":5424.878,"end":5452.836,"text":"美國國會底下的USCC有透露 媒體上都有揭露說台灣 要台灣資助美軍在菲律賓的軍事基地的升級工程簡單來講就是因為菲律賓距離台灣很近那麼台灣出錢修他們的比如說跑道 其他的一些的設施這樣子的話要來幫忙台灣比較方便有沒有這回事"},{"start":5454.191,"end":5482.182,"text":"來 國安局副局長快點 來包委員 目前我們有接受到這樣的情訊沒有有沒有我們沒有接到這樣的情訊另外 UACC 認為可以透過FMS就是對外的軍售計畫參與就台灣協助日本 西南諸島的一些類似這個 就工程上的建設有沒有這個東西"},{"start":5485.185,"end":5508.686,"text":"包委員 一樣沒有介紹這樣的情訊那個外交部的吳次長要不要回答一下吳次長 有沒有介紹這個東西是有這樣的一個政策建議有啊 怎麼沒有呢有討論啦但是政策建議很多事情是可以討論的我方便到目前並沒有要我請教你它的日本西南諸島有沒有包括真立最大的釣魚台 有沒有"},{"start":5511.861,"end":5522.808,"text":"日本的西南諸島西南諸島 當然有啊你就看日本的地圖西南下來就掉一條在上面再過來台灣 再過來菲律賓所以那也就是說"},{"start":5524.181,"end":5546.563,"text":"就是說美國的國會會建議台灣出錢去幫忙美軍在這些地方的一些的軍事的一些的我們叫什麼叫做supporting的一些一些非軍事的啦但是比如跑道啦這些設施等等的這些軍事用地什麼之類的對吧"},{"start":5550.567,"end":5564.568,"text":"我的理解從我年輕念書到現在台灣或中華民國跟美國在各方面合作一直是我們一貫的政策所以這個如果是有這樣的一個做法我想就是我們過去來一貫的政策"},{"start":5564.909,"end":5574.317,"text":"你不覺得我們現在已經被扒了好幾層皮台美關稅我們被要求投資四千億美金然後又來這一條錢這次多少錢你知道嗎也不知道多少錢然後就是要叫我們買單美國在國際上在國外的一些軍事基地的維修要台灣出錢這是哪一門的邏輯"},{"start":5590.931,"end":5598.356,"text":"這個邏輯會不會把台灣真的真的叛逆叛逆加三級難道不是這樣子嗎外交部有答應嗎"},{"start":5600.218,"end":5610.224,"text":"剛才提到那是政策建議而已目前為止我想我們跟美國的各方面的合作討論是有助於維護台灣海峽的一個安全市長 這個要說NO啦 不能這樣子啦台灣錢不是大風刮來的啦大家辛辛苦苦 納稅人一點一滴好 我們再看今天的主題像這個是高市長所說到的"},{"start":5624.741,"end":5642.587,"text":"我能不能解讀為他講的就是台灣有事日本會出兵可不可以這樣解釋可不可以市長我想這好像可不可以我想高市首相並沒有這樣直接解釋法所以我們也不用過度去白話文就是這樣或者講不排除出兵這樣說可以嗎"},{"start":5648.137,"end":5654.345,"text":"我想 任何一個主權國家都有權利都用他想要做的事情來維護他自己的國家安全我只能這樣說他講的這個話 我知道很多人這個大家覺得說 喔 這樣兩個大國打起來對台灣很好可是我覺得大家要三思"},{"start":5663.937,"end":5678.194,"text":"多少專家我的經驗沒有任何一次我這次兩個禮拜沒有任何一個國說兩個大國打起來是很好的事情每一個國家包含聯合國發言人的回憶都是怎麼樣希望降低中國跟日本之間的緊張關係你認為兩個國家會不會打起來"},{"start":5680.862,"end":5700.863,"text":"我認為目前不會目前不會 未來也不會是不是因為大陸說要引用聯合國憲章的敵國條款因為他們是戰敗國包括德國 義大利 日本戰敗國他如果有侵犯到別人的話可以直接洞府不需要再經過安理會"},{"start":5702.889,"end":5727.585,"text":"這個能不能適用報告委員聯合國成立的時候簽署國並不是中華人民共和國而是我們中華民國所以我想他去引用我們中華民國簽的條約好像也不太適當但是這個條款在那裡沒有拿掉雖然沒有廢掉 還留著實質上大家認為沒有意義可是它還留在那裡所以你認為它什麼時候可以降溫兩國什麼時候可以降溫"},{"start":5733.178,"end":5748.098,"text":"報告委員 我想降溫真的是有賴於日本跟中國他們自己彼此的一個外交要做什麼樣的政策因為這個並不是跟我們中華民國不是跟我們中華民國直接的衝突所以我想這還是由日本跟美國來處理"},{"start":5750.481,"end":5764.847,"text":"各國都有在協助想辦法降低兩國的衝突因為真的這個地區的區域和平安全是全世界的共同利益沒有一個國家有利益美國有介入嗎我說最後一句話美國有介入這個事情嗎"},{"start":5768.12,"end":5786.786,"text":"美國有表達對日本的支持我想國務院跟美國駐日大使是有表達對日本的支持那這兩個都是我們的盟邦可是老公還是不甩啊老公現在拼命在升級啊現在還在往上爬啊這個才令人擔心的最後一小點我覺得賴清德總統太不厚道了利用這一次兵彎馬亂啦這個呼嚕呼嚕沒有預警的開放"},{"start":5798.536,"end":5822.29,"text":"核輔導核災食品進來了欸沒有經過一定的程序就這樣子可以全面開放欸這個東西你不用回答我時間到了齁這個這個莫名其妙就噴了這叫渾水摸魚啊這是渾水摸魚的行為啊好 謝謝賴世保委員的質詢市長您先請為好 接續我們邀請王定宇召委質詢我回去嘛齁"},{"start":5837.339,"end":5858.935,"text":"請外交部吳次長還有國安局副局長好 請吳次長及張副局長委員好兩位早我們來立法院備詢如果不在權責範圍內的政策不知道就是不知道 不用硬講"},{"start":5860.222,"end":5875.14,"text":"如果應該要捍衛國家跟政府的真實的事實該說要據理以真這是我期待我們內閣閣員每一位官員應該做的事情我剛才聽到的哪有開放核實"},{"start":5877.458,"end":5902.059,"text":"那個是經過幾十萬次檢驗按照之前的所有的流程然後確認沒有問題每一件都抽改成十件抽一百件抽一到最後採取一般的管理流程那個不叫開放那是一個管理的進程如果連這個都沒辦法當下回應的話我會覺得非常遺憾請教兩位第一個高市首相到底做了什麼事情"},{"start":5903.444,"end":5928.016,"text":"高市首相其實在他們國家非常重要的預算委員會因應因為他們是內閣制在預算委員會的尋答我相信台日前應該很清楚那個是他們最重要的委員會他們的國會議員要提問是要先送你的提問的提綱給常任官你好搞所以是政府的常任文官你好搞讓官員在那邊回答"},{"start":5929.158,"end":5950.483,"text":"他回答的是如果中國武力侵犯台灣是否會影響日本的存立事態他們認為中國軍事犯台所以台灣在這邊是當事人我們是受害者那日本認為會影響到他們其實最近的例子就有培洛西那一次射了11顆導彈有5顆落在日本的經濟水域"},{"start":5951.423,"end":5974.373,"text":"任何一個國家應該對自己的安全進行review就是審視還有因應所以他們認為這適用他們憲法的集體自衛權他講這個話對錯日本人跟日本政府可以去審視至少到目前為止日本的在野黨全部都支持高市早苗不用收回今天早上最新的消息是維新會也支持不收回那他們就過半了喔"},{"start":5976.242,"end":6003.412,"text":"國會他們是過半支持高市的說法而且維新會在關西地區跟年輕時代是很高的支持度那為什麼中國會跳腳到文攻武嚇加經濟脅迫外交部認為為什麼為什麼中國對這件事情安倍當年說過當然安倍說的時候不是首相現在高市說的是一個首相意見並不是內閣一致性意見這兩個有點不一樣這是首相的政策你們權勢為什麼會這樣跳腳"},{"start":6006.619,"end":6016.825,"text":"因為中國現在對台灣是有野心的嘛在我們看到現在中國他極力擴張他的軍備他現在的海軍艦艇達到400艘遠遠超過美國的300艘他這一次幾乎經濟利益也不顧了他們尋求外交和緩也不顧了為什麼在這個點上"},{"start":6031.584,"end":6052.957,"text":"他們要用文攻武嚇那個台灣都承受過了加經濟脅迫你們的判斷是什麼因為我剛才提到說中國對台灣確實是有野心的不過這樣的野心現在經過我們中華民國外交部的努力跟我們政府的努力其實已經越來越不能被世界接受我剛剛講委員你在Facebook上有分享"},{"start":6053.797,"end":6059.622,"text":"聯合國Stefan de la Riviere那個發言人中國記者一直要問他要他重申2758號決議裡面那個台灣屬於中國裡面什麼根本沒有寫到台灣的部分對 沒有錯但我要跟委員報告你去找那一篇那位發言人事實上在過去對台灣的發言人是非常不友善的"},{"start":6073.977,"end":6087.249,"text":"從過去不友善到今天那個發言人以往其實對我們沒有好眼色可是他這次他就不願意你沒有回答問題我還是照順序來來 國安局你們的分析評估為什麼中國這一次會極力的要去阻止這個點是"},{"start":6089.551,"end":6113.447,"text":"包委員因為中國一直把台灣當成他核心利益中的利益所以他對於有關於台海的這個發言的話格外的重視所以這個部分等於是他們會認為觸犯他的紅線其實他的紅線是什麼剛才之前我聽吳次長的答詢你其實有講過答案對中國來講他希望把台灣變成內部"},{"start":6115.668,"end":6143.684,"text":"內部事務圍起來打外界都不要干涉因為他們視台灣為內部事務你剛才講就像香港一旦成為中國的內部事務外人就難以插手一旦外人難以插手加上日本以他集體自衛權表達介入的可能性歷次的兵推日本光開放機場跟幫助美軍加油中國在兵推"},{"start":6144.484,"end":6153.809,"text":"對盟軍最嚴格的條件對中國最寬鬆的條件並推中國沒有贏過半次中國武力犯台 要欺負台灣"},{"start":6155.031,"end":6175.829,"text":"要糟蹋我們的國家在歷次的兵推不管你看美國CSIS的或者是在日本的前兩年的兵推用最對盟軍最嚴格的條件比方說規定他的這個某些飛彈不能攻擊艦艇比如說台灣的部隊都沒有動作用最嚴格的條件日方只提供加油"},{"start":6177.17,"end":6202.388,"text":"協助共軍其實犯台在兵退裡面是沒有贏過的所以在這兩個前提下中國當然要跳腳他希望阻止台灣成為國際利益的核心他希望阻止各國民主盟友對台海發生軍事衝突展現積極的態度對他來講他等於是失去武力犯台的機會對台灣來講你們認為這是安全的提升是安全的下降"},{"start":6203.902,"end":6229.418,"text":"包括針對日本等於是高盛內閣這次提的安保的一個要提升他的自衛能量那因為這本於就是美日同盟的一個概念他們是有安保條例的所以其實從這個角度來看有助於美盟在印太地區區域的能力的提升這個區域的穩定"},{"start":6229.898,"end":6256.486,"text":"和平式提升因為大家談這個問題我特別很遺憾我看到我們國內有些人講日本講這個話無視深坡無視深坡的是中國中國用他的軍事力量呈現在第一島鏈從菲律賓去撞人家的海巡艇到台海天天惹事到東海到黃海甚至於到紐澳的外海在今年二月實彈演習是中國的軍力投射"},{"start":6257.748,"end":6275.036,"text":"aggressive他這種挑釁的外擴視的一種侵略行為對整個區域造成不穩定所以這個叫做rebalance如果有各國重視這邊讓他再平衡當然對區域安全有提升幫助很多人"},{"start":6276.036,"end":6300.825,"text":"不敢公開講說自己是站在中共那一邊就講說日本這個是惹事他忘了如果有一個鄰居一天到晚拿棍子要打你的家人這時候有社區巡守隊有好鄰居有警察出來說不可以這樣子喔這樣的話影響到我們的安寧我們要出來介入的時候你竟然去罵那個巡守隊去罵那個警察罵那個鄰居不敢去譴責那一個惡霸區域惡霸"},{"start":6303.237,"end":6328.255,"text":"這已經不是偽善了 這叫為虎作倉你們贊不贊成這種說法我們對於有助於英泰的一個區域安全穩定和平 這我們都非常樂見所以我回到外交部剛有聽到一些問題 我還是很遺憾就是說國內有些像馬英九這樣的人竟然說台灣跟中國是自己的內部的事 外人不要插手這是限台灣於險境"},{"start":6330.407,"end":6345.155,"text":"一旦中國達成這個指標全世界都不要插手了反而是最容易引戰的時候台灣反而最危險而且對後代子孫是非常的不公平不正義台灣是國際的一份子台灣被"},{"start":6346.556,"end":6374.701,"text":"攻擊也好被中國這樣的武力霸凌也好會影響國際利益加上我們提升自我防衛能量這才是真正的和平之道所以我要請教市長剛才有提說這一次賴清德總統吃這個壽司吃個壽司我看那個也就是旋轉壽司那個意見一堆有好朋友說了對安全提升的話不管他是有意或者是出於日本自己國家利益作為鄰居"},{"start":6376.314,"end":6404.478,"text":"我們發聲做正面的回應日本人我看了所有的主流媒體NHK 讀麥 美日新聞 產經新聞共同社日本電視台 富士電視台 全部都報導啊那一則的瀏覽量有兩千萬啊剛剛有一題你沒有回答你們有下廣告嗎是你們用外宣的嗎我們已經沒有錢做外宣了根本就沒有錢做外宣了嘛我剛才聽到有委員在那邊問你們是不是花錢他忘了錢是被他們自己刪掉的"},{"start":6406.035,"end":6435.396,"text":"外宣的錢都沒有了竟然還在質疑說這是你們花錢買媒體外銷轉內銷一個鄰國為了台灣安全正被中國霸凌完全站在中國的角度說台灣不要出聲音我們不要跟著惹事這樣以後誰要幫你然後呢明明日本的主流媒體報導兩千多萬次的這個瀏覽還要說我們這個是外銷轉內銷沒有吧你們沒有任何宣傳費用了啊"},{"start":6436.331,"end":6462.843,"text":"我們現在沒有在做這方面宣傳因為國際自動就會站在我們這邊不要說自動啦我剛才其實台日協可以站出來幫忙講就幫忙講日本的主流媒體都有報導日本民眾的關注度很高啊然後還要再用二戰的戰敗國幫中國去羞辱日本幫中國主張武力可以直接打他恐嚇日本中國這麼做我不意外"},{"start":6463.786,"end":6486.63,"text":"我們在台灣該採取這個立場嗎何況當時聯合國創立一開始過渡時期是這一些發起戰爭國如果再重啟侵略戰爭常任國可以直接軍事發動軍事攻擊不用經過安理會授權後來在50 60年代這些二戰的戰敗國都成為聯合國會員國之後這個過渡條款基本上不用了"},{"start":6487.13,"end":6515.12,"text":"在1995年聯合國大會當時中國也投贊成表認為這一個條款所謂的可以直接制裁的條款已經過時並不適用我印象當年的表決是第50條第52條這個條款已經作廢不用了那現在中國還拿出來拿出來他也曉得不好意思後來有下架換小粉紅去弄我希望我們台灣的政界不要成為小粉紅去幫忙引用這一條人家在"},{"start":6516.38,"end":6534.574,"text":"日本有權利去檢視他的安全事務而他檢視過程當中如果剛好對我們有利 給予好鄰居我們發個聲幫忙理所當然我們沒有要介入任何糾紛任何認為是台灣或日本引起糾紛的都忘了一個核心命題那就是"},{"start":6535.851,"end":6559.048,"text":"中國才是這整個區域不安的麻煩製造者他才是源頭他不要去軍事想要打台灣想要弄菲律賓想要去弄日本哪有集體自衛權大家那個國防預算的GDP佔比都可以再降一點問題是他每一年7%的成長超過8兆的投資對周邊國家形成壓力源頭不檢討檢討受害者"},{"start":6561.428,"end":6586.386,"text":"我相信在歐盟 我最近看歐盟的會議都在講檢討受害者其實是幫獨裁者擦脂抹粉我時間到我提醒外交部跟國安局研究兩個事情 三個事情這一次高士奇真正重要的是在2026年開始啟動對話2026年年底要完成三個安保文件的修正從2015年安倍修改他們的安保法"},{"start":6589.592,"end":6604.993,"text":"這個限於防衛開始採取主動積極那這一次高市早苗啟動的修正有三個方向我們要去思考第一個他要建構一個區域的安全防衛網絡那台灣跟這個網絡其實是核心命題"},{"start":6606.014,"end":6630.588,"text":"卻因為外交關係我們不容易在這裡面有角色我們既是核心命題又陷於地緣政治的局限台灣怎麼樣跟這一個安全網絡建構這牽涉到第一島鏈到第二島鏈第二個事情高市有要檢討所謂的放寬防衛軍備的這個出口以及防衛軍備的合作"},{"start":6631.638,"end":6656.314,"text":"那台灣在他旁邊我們長期民間就有工業合作甚至有些軍民通的就是商業跟軍用共用的一些技術日本跟台灣的工業界都有在合作那怎麼樣在這個軍備合作或軍備輸出的情形上對台灣尋求最大利益最後一個是C2的一體化也就是指管系統一體化"},{"start":6657.415,"end":6683.237,"text":"日本已經要跟美國指管系統一體化那台灣要不要指管系統一體化情報分享即時化這個是由印太司令部還有日本還有韓國都有提出來這對台灣國安局跟外交部外交部也許不管指管但國安局應該要跟國防部進行研究以上三個建議給各位 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃定宇召委的諮詢那先請回"},{"start":6692.902,"end":6695.203,"text":"好謝謝接下來進行詢問委員徐曉清委員謝謝主席我們有請外交部吳次長來次長請"},{"start":6716.429,"end":6740.754,"text":"市長好 大家都非常關心這個日本首相高市早苗的這個包含台灣有事說跟安保三文件的修正對區域安全可能產生的一個影響那我們現在觀察到的是中日衝突那想要問一下外交部的看法您覺得它會是一個短期化的一個衝突還是說它會演變成長期化的中日衝突"},{"start":6744.741,"end":6757.405,"text":"看指紋定義衝突日本跟中國現在的國家利益不同這個是我們客觀看得出來但衝突不必然代表戰爭對 沒有 我沒有講戰爭我說的是衝突對 就是說有不同的對國家利益不同看法我想在國際關係是非常常見的尤其現在中國對區域產生一個非常具侵略性的各種動作比如說在我們的每年"},{"start":6773.01,"end":6776.154,"text":"去年派了接近4000架飛機對我們進行騷擾這也不是只有對我們對中國也是一樣再來是快速增加他們的國防能力比如說4000你剛剛是講錯國家"},{"start":6789.118,"end":6814.7,"text":"對中國對於整個區域進行騷擾你剛剛講說對日本也是一樣對日本也是一樣沒錯啊對釣魚台中國也是進行很多的軍事騷擾到時候你回去可以重看一下剛剛因為我有聽到主席有講到說這個主持用法應該要精確一點那請您在回答的時候也特別注意一下好不好你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":6815.8,"end":6837.545,"text":"中國確實對日本進行軍事騷擾對 您剛講的是中國對日本進行軍事騷擾但因為您剛回答的時候您講成了說對中國也進行了軍事騷擾是這樣子的好 請您繼續抱歉所以目前看到的是中國快速增加他的國防軍備也引起世界各國對這樣的一個情形有非常擔憂"},{"start":6838.305,"end":6856.267,"text":"是那個因為我剛剛問的是說這樣子目前中日的衝突我們評估他是會長期持續化還是說他是會短期之內那有所解決那想問您喔您剛剛的這個說法是比較偏向說會長期的產生這樣子的一個矛盾是嗎"},{"start":6856.807,"end":6863.731,"text":"以目前中國在習近平的主政之下確實我看不出這個衝突會有減低的一個趨勢那這個前首相石破茂他提到真正該討論的是避免台灣如何會沒有事就是說要避免台灣有事的情況發生那我想問一下"},{"start":6877.819,"end":6888.538,"text":"針對前首相識破帽的說法呢而外交部除了認同高市早苗首相之外對前首相識破帽的說法外交部也是認同的嗎還是有不同的意見"},{"start":6890.229,"end":6917.656,"text":"我基本上我覺得石破茂現在已經不是首相了他可以表達他個人的意見他也是一個意見領袖嘛那我想要問一下因為在等於說在日本政壇裡面那有像高市早苗首相這樣子的說法那當然前首相他的說法是說認為應該要討論的是如何避免台灣有事針對這樣子的一個就是發言的取向跟他的整體的這個想法跟邏輯我想知道的是外交部是同時認同雙方"},{"start":6919.216,"end":6934.306,"text":"還是只認同高市早苗還是說有什麼樣的一個評論或是評估以目前我問更清楚一點就是說該不該要去討論的是如何避免台灣有事"},{"start":6935.086,"end":6942.768,"text":"如何避免台灣有事也不是要一切都順從中國的要求沒有人剛這樣講石破茂也沒有這樣講我問的是石破茂的言論所以你不能單就這句話我問的是石破茂的說法他說在日本來講除了高市早苗講的台灣有事日本有事之外要討論如何來避免台灣有事"},{"start":6958.613,"end":6979.273,"text":"所以您的言下之意是認為說這是石破茂單方面的說法外交部並不認同 是嗎我想石破茂講的是跟法律無關我要講的是怎麼樣 任何一個首相都有權我想高市長講的是要他主要是要捍衛日本的安全那對一個國家領導人我想這是正常的"},{"start":6980.519,"end":6993.99,"text":"對 我知道你剛剛支持高市早苗的言論在前面很多的委員在質詢的時候都已經講了嘛但他們沒有問到的是前首相石破茂的這個看法跟論點外交部是否認同我問的很簡單就是這個事情啊對於石破茂提到"},{"start":7000.833,"end":7026.305,"text":"就維護那個台海地區安全這點當然是這是對的那至於以什麼樣方法來做因為我們外交部不需要先去評論一個已經不是外交已經不是首相的一個說法我認為原則上精神上是對的那至於要用什麼樣方法來做如果今天前首相安倍晉三他有對台灣做出非常清楚的發言的話我不認為外交部這時候會告訴我說因為他是前首相所以就不予討論了"},{"start":7029.807,"end":7051.874,"text":"因為他仍然對在日本來說是有影響力的重要人物所以我只是想要詢問就是說呢當日本你不要講石破茂好了在日本裡面有一些人他認為除了高市早苗的說法之外也應該要討論如何避免台灣有事這樣子的說法外交部繞了這麼多圈圈所以是並不是這麼認同"},{"start":7054.099,"end":7069.043,"text":"報告委員對於台灣安全有說法的意見領袖會非常多我們外交部其實沒有必要對於每一個都做出回答的評論你這樣講我就清楚了就是不想要回應石破茂再來我要講的是說我們也需要更多的盟友支持台灣前一次的質詢在林佳旺部長來的時候我才詢問過CPTPP的事情"},{"start":7080.846,"end":7095.82,"text":"那當時就講到說在12月的時候其實11月現在就已經就已經開始了那當時呢這個我們林佳龍部長他也很有信心的提到呢我們呢有在跟這些國家他說有跟一個國家來做討論"},{"start":7097.341,"end":7124.421,"text":"那這個呢CPTPP的部長級的會議後的這個報告宣布了烏拉圭阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼符合奧克蘭原則並且先啟動了烏拉圭的入會程序那其他的三國也就是阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼會視情況於明年進行過程當中完全沒有提到台灣我想問一下外交部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":7127.394,"end":7136.826,"text":"我們確實是符合奧克蘭三原則這是事實對啊不要提到我們的這次是在澳洲主辦嗎跟不遠報告一下這個外交的場合不是說符合什麼就一定會獲得什麼"},{"start":7144.134,"end":7150.421,"text":"就像我們中華民國我們中華民國符合主權獨立國家但也不是每一個國家要承認我們我們符合奧克蘭三原則我們確實遇到阻礙這個阻礙就是來自於中國所以這一次CPTPP我們認為沒有公正審查我國的申請案是因為你們認為在這一次的"},{"start":7168.458,"end":7182.89,"text":"CPTPP的討論當中也一樣受到了中國大陸他們的打壓所以在澳洲這一次的CPTPP的部長會議才沒有讓台灣能夠成立入會小組是這個意思嗎"},{"start":7185.874,"end":7196.404,"text":"確實我想這是我們可以很清楚的去理解到我們之所以沒辦法受到公平的對待絕對是中國的這一次也是是嗎在澳洲在澳洲舉辦的這一次也是嗎應該是我請那個我們那個司長又回答一下"},{"start":7205.993,"end":7226.479,"text":"報告委員因為是共識決的部分所以我們外交部也一直在呼籲各國應該是要用公正有效率的方式根據各個國家客觀的條件來予以公正的審查那請問在會議當中有哪一些國家有幫我們提案說要把成立台灣入會小組放進這個討論議程裡面"},{"start":7229.201,"end":7245.26,"text":"跟委員報告這個是會員國之間他們內部的審查如果沒有在內部我們是不會了解情節所以我們不清楚有哪一些國家願意支持我們哪一些國家你認為是中共介入所以說跟著中共一起來反對我們是這樣嗎"},{"start":7246.081,"end":7270.642,"text":"沒有 我可以很清楚知道日本會支持我們英國會支持我們那他們有提出你們有所了解說他們有在CPTPP的這個會議裡面提出要把台灣列入入會小組放進議程裡嗎我們沒有參與討論所以我們對內部他們如果討論如果支持那你們有向日本了解以及建議或者是希望拜託他們做這樣的請求而對方表達了同意嗎"},{"start":7271.567,"end":7275.454,"text":"我們確實有跟日本提出這樣的請求對方有表達同意嗎"},{"start":7276.697,"end":7303.219,"text":"日本有明確表達是會對我們繼續表達支持但是日本也是一票英國也是一票啊當然啊我是說他們在會議當中有提出要把台灣入會小組放進討論議程這件事情是日本有告訴台灣說他們有做這樣子的舉措還是只是說我們跟他提出建議的時候他們會說好我們會來幫忙就這是兩件不同的事情一個是說態度上面的友好一個是實際上面"},{"start":7304.68,"end":7309.583,"text":"告訴我們我們已經在CPTPP的議程裡面提出建議要把台灣入會小組放入議程不是表決一票喔是放入議程喔您要聽清楚我的問題我知道在許多場合日本確實會替我們捍衛但我剛才提到說這個並不引然代表整個大會就會通過我沒有問通過的問題因為沒有通過這已經是事實了我詢問的是說您剛講的國家"},{"start":7333.919,"end":7350.189,"text":"他們到底有沒有如實的就像我們的請求在CPTPP的這個會議裡面不是說投票通過是說把台灣成立入會小組這件事情放入議程討論因為我時間不夠有關係是不是可以簡短回答就好"},{"start":7350.829,"end":7371.696,"text":"報告委員我認為應該是有因為我前陣子有去日本有帶一個船去日本我們有討論過一些就這邊救貨交換知事方給我們回答說他們會在各項場合各項場合有包含這個CPTPP他們給我回答是有但我不在現場我沒辦法跟你講有是沒有但是他們跟我講是有"},{"start":7372.136,"end":7400.135,"text":"那我希望就是說呢關於CPTPP這件事情我們持續來努力一定會 謝謝委員既然 既然今天日本提出了包含高市早苗等提出了對台灣要有所支持那我們希望是能夠有實際的表現而這些表現我們不能只因為說他們是在內部會議所以我們就不知情那我們也應該要透過我們跟日方的管道了解是否確實有在會議當中協助我們來提案"},{"start":7400.615,"end":7421.932,"text":"而不是說他簡單跟我們這樣談話表達口頭上的支持我們希望能夠看到更實質的表現喔 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝來 各位請回接下來進行勳答委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在黃婕委員 黃婕委員 黃婕委員不在接下來勳答委員是馬文君委員"},{"start":7425.39,"end":7439.315,"text":"那個馬文君委員那個詢答結束後我們剛好到11點左右會處理臨時提案謝謝主席麻煩請國安局副局長還有我們外交部次長兩位請委員好"},{"start":7447.652,"end":7461.656,"text":"我想今天大家關注的可能就是高市早苗首相他之前的談論現在目前可能也引發中日之間比較緊張的關係其實就很多國家來說並沒有很明確的表態包括美國"},{"start":7469.858,"end":7485.243,"text":"所以我們就這個部分來看因為高市首相我想其實他很重要的一個目的還是為了日本本身因為就安保三文件跟非核三原則其實他們一直希望可以做修正尤其是現在在地緣政治上面有不斷的一些緊張的情勢在升溫還有整個國際局勢的情況之下我想他很重要的是希望他的軍隊可以正常化"},{"start":7496.647,"end":7514.441,"text":"因為就目前來看他的軍隊的年齡其實是可能都是偏高只有自衛隊的這樣子的功能另外就是他武器可以輸出可以做出售這個可能也是他們的一個方向另外一個就是非核三原則他們也希望可以改變這個因為這一次在美韓的關稅談判裡面韓國其實他都已經可以"},{"start":7520.966,"end":7531.378,"text":"得到美國的同意幫他們可能可以製造核潛艦的部分所以我想這個可能是日本很重要的一個自己在整體的軍事發展或者在他的很多的國家防衛的上面其實他想要達到的一個目的"},{"start":7538.647,"end":7543.17,"text":"所以就這個部分因為當然我們在區域維持穩定和平這是大家共同想要去努力的一個方向可是當我們看到很多其他周邊國家也好或者世界在對這個部分都不是這麼強力的去做評論的時候我想我們應該也要兼顧我們自己的國家層體安全這樣對不對是 孟委員"},{"start":7568.466,"end":7572.61,"text":"剛剛委員的分析其實非常精闢事實上我們看到是"},{"start":7575.305,"end":7600.981,"text":"高市首相會提出這樣的一個修改安保三文件主要考量還是在於面對到區域環境安全環境的改變包括中共的一個威脅的迫近還有俄羅斯跟北韓這些傳統日本非常關切的區域的安全的威脅那有建議跟美盟跟美國要加強日本日美的一個"},{"start":7603.074,"end":7629.603,"text":"合作那另外要推動區域的相關美盟在印太區域的有盟的合作他著眼於這樣的強化自衛隊的能量所以去進行這樣的修改但後面他修改的內容我們會持續關注剛剛提到包括配合三原則這個部分事實上內部他們還沒有達到有共識我們會持續密註這個他們在這方面調整後勤的發展畢竟"},{"start":7630.683,"end":7655.61,"text":"這個會影響到整個我們印太地區尤其亞太地區區域安全的一個發展所以這個部分我們本局會持續來關注所以就整個情勢來看因為我想這個可能還會持續一段時間吧就我們剛剛提到的一些相關的判斷所以我們也希望其實在整體的發展上面因為我們也要考量到台灣本身的安全"},{"start":7656.45,"end":7662.354,"text":"這個才是最大的一個目標方向因為我們看到近期烏克蘭俄烏戰爭已經進行三年九個月那最近其實包括川普總統提出來的和平計畫其實對烏克蘭傷害是很大的所以對於澤倫斯基在做選擇的時候其實也是一個非常艱難的一個抉擇"},{"start":7679.826,"end":7702.974,"text":"就這個狀況所以我們才說其實台灣的安全還有區域的和平才是我們應該要強化的而不是我們在現階段我們可能就有很多的行為動作會去引起不必要的紛爭這個跟示弱或者妥協根本是無關的而是我們要整體的考量就是我們的區域安全還有台灣本身自己"},{"start":7703.454,"end":7712.478,"text":"在和平在整個這個牽動上面應該要扮演什麼角色這個真的是非常重要所以就這些部分我想今天還有一個我想要請教的因為剛剛還包括外交部剛剛也提到很多可是我們除了這些以外我們今天金融時報有特別提到我們看到他們發布的大概我們在美台的關稅談判裡面"},{"start":7731.586,"end":7748.566,"text":"這樣子的一個貿易協定可能已經快要在近期就會宣布那就你們的掌握不管是國安單位也好或者外交部也好就這個部分投資4000億美元這個的目前的一個態勢是怎麼樣就你們掌握的一個方向這個"},{"start":7750.496,"end":7765.077,"text":"這個部分我想應該是我們行政院經貿團隊他們在談判所以這個部分我們要尊重談判團隊他們的一個這個已經不是尊重談判團隊因為這個牽涉非常龐大的甚至動搖國本"},{"start":7766.67,"end":7781.729,"text":"的投資金額還有我們的採購金額因為過去還有包括就是我們國防的支出要高達GDP的5%以上日本 韓國或其他周邊國家或者甚至其他區域的國家其實都還沒有增加到這麼高的額度"},{"start":7783.09,"end":7790.261,"text":"所以我們看到說這個四千億這個不是只有尊重因為我們看到一路以來其實是黑箱過去在服貿的時候包括鄭麗君副院長她那時候也是反服貿黑箱非常大力在反對的"},{"start":7798.993,"end":7805.054,"text":"所以他今天必須要堅持這樣的理念讓所有的國人知道因為今天不是小金額今天也不是一般的談判這個牽涉到我們整體的投資還有我們所有的產業鏈最重要的產業鏈的外移還有我們投資的金額這麼龐大因為我們看到日本承諾5500億美元他佔GDP大概14%"},{"start":7823.078,"end":7826.26,"text":"韓國承諾的是3500億美元佔GDP的20%假設台灣同意4000億美元的投資我們的佔比高達49.5%幾乎一半這個12兆的金額是我們4年的總預算的金額所以對我們來說是非常影響非常深遠而且對後續的發展也影響非常大所以我想這個不是尊重談判辦公室而已這個國安單位有什麼看法"},{"start":7854.859,"end":7858.38,"text":"包委員就是因為這個談判過程經過很多輪的談判我想我們的談判團隊副局長沒關係談判的過程因為現在是沒有沒有揭露沒有公開因為我們也不認同可是如果是4000億"},{"start":7871.946,"end":7897.701,"text":"美元這樣子的一個投資的金額你們在國安的團隊角色上面的看法是什麼我剛剛講了大家的GDP的占比日本也好 韓國也好 台灣是非常高的這因為還在談判過程當中我們了解到談判團隊包委員 這個假設性問題我想這不是假設性喔因為接連就會公布了如果真的發生的時候是大家"},{"start":7899.002,"end":7910.168,"text":"在這個談判的過程當中談判團隊是依據我們國家的利益跟產業利益去跟美方去交涉的可以告訴我們可以得到什麼利益嗎可能要由談判團隊專業來評估來說明"},{"start":7913.013,"end":7930.228,"text":"這個不是談判團隊談判團隊談的是過程我現在說國安團隊對於這個部分其實他所做的平息他的延期如果我們高達GDP快要50%了我們可能要等到這個確定結果我們才能夠比較更精確來做這樣的一個評估他會不會影響就你們的看法會造成什麼影響會造成什麼影響如果這麼高額的這樣的一個投資金額"},{"start":7940.834,"end":7958.291,"text":"我想這個還是就這樣的一個過程因為細節內容就要綜合來看所以光看一個金額或什麼我們如果綜合來看更可悲因為除了投資金額非常大以外我們的國防預算要承諾高達"},{"start":7959.352,"end":7963.353,"text":"GDP的5%然後我們還有農產品的採購高達100億的美元然後還有我們開放整個市場它可能是零關稅而且是依照美國的一個規定跟標準然後我們還有其他之前相關的談判沒有一個對我們台灣是比較有利的"},{"start":7983.164,"end":7988.148,"text":"結果我們如果談出來還是跟美國日本一樣都是15%頂多不疊加那我們到底得到什麼這樣是合理的嗎國安團隊今天我想我們就這個部分請國安局在後續針對這個部分因為已經快要可能要公佈了嘛這個部分請國安團隊再去做一些評析跟考量然後提供給我們委員會好不好好 委員會來做評估"},{"start":8009.204,"end":8029.805,"text":"那另外先請回那就請外交部就剛剛吳院好市長好那就剛剛我們提到的就是如果說我們的條約締結法如果牽涉到現在談判的結果大家不能接受或者我們立法院審議不通過的時候會造成什麼影響"},{"start":8032.629,"end":8047.137,"text":"基本上條例締結法一定要立法院通過我不曉得委員是指哪一項因為我們剛剛提到的有很多的條件如果它真的呈現出來是我們所質疑的或者我們現在不能接受的因為像這樣子投資4千億那個嗎對 投資4千億"},{"start":8049.878,"end":8066.923,"text":"報告委員 關於投資我想在理念相近國家互相投資這是正常現象比如說輝達現在世界上最大公司也決定來台灣投資Amazon Google Meta都來台灣投資你把這種商業的投資跟我們現在的關稅談判並在一起談這是不恰當的我們現在講的因為他是為了他的商業利益他會做這樣的選擇他並不是因為在談判的過程當中他說"},{"start":8078.247,"end":8083.048,"text":"互蒙其利所以來台灣投資並不是所以我們現在要講的是如果就這個部分它會對台灣造成很大的影響我剛剛講的沒有一個對台灣是明顯有利的我們的關稅甚至也只是跟美國所以這是屬於互相投資因為台積電也不是只有政府可以我們沒有辦法叫台積電去那邊投資台積電是個私人公司我們政府是其中一部分我說的是4000億包括台積電台積電政府其實是可以"},{"start":8107.093,"end":8111.274,"text":"可以不要同意事實上是可以因為牽涉到國安不是台積電不要同意是政府如果認為牽涉到對整個國家發展安全都有影響的時候政府是可以有角色政府是可以有態度的可是我們現在看到的目前不是這樣所以就這個部分外交部在條約締結法上面因為我們過去在"},{"start":8133.2,"end":8137.041,"text":"在談判的過程當中不管是服貿也好因為之前蕭美琴召委她現在是我們的副總統其實她那時候在委員會她也明確的表態如果我們的人民不同意或者對國家造成太大的影響其實甚至立法院都可以叫她退回重新談判這個部分我們也希望如果對我們影響太大的時候我們應該要有什麼樣的態度外交部跟國安"},{"start":8159.469,"end":8182.741,"text":"國安局其實必須要事先做有一些相關的因應作為好不好是的 我們絕對照憲法來走憲法 我們有條約締結法你就用條約締結法就好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 請回 這個不用到憲法了來 請坐好 我們現在處理臨時提案請宣讀第一個提案"},{"start":8183.513,"end":8205.486,"text":"第一案 鑒於中國進行宣布通緝我國現役資資通電軍 新戰大隊等維護國家安全之重要軍方人員此舉構成對我國國家主權的嚴重侵犯與挑釁我國國軍肩負保家衛國 捍衛台灣民主憲政之神聖職責且中國對台灣從不具有任何司法管轄權"},{"start":8206.807,"end":8228.749,"text":"絕不容許中國以其國內法進行長臂管轄中國此惡劣行徑再次證明其為區域安全穩定的麻煩製造者本委員會原對此表達最強烈的譴責並聲援被中國非法通緝之我國人民特此提案提案人委員王定宇 盧美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":8231.129,"end":8242.255,"text":"好 謝謝 本席做提案的說明然後待會看各位同仁有沒有意見中國以不合法 不合國際慣例的方式進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓"},{"start":8244.864,"end":8260.336,"text":"在過去這段時間大家只看到我們同樣身為國會議員的沈博洋面對這樣的壓力其實在沈博洋之前就有我們的國軍不管是資通電軍軍情局這個政戰局的新戰大隊"},{"start":8261.056,"end":8279.489,"text":"面臨同樣的情形那中國對台灣完全沒有管轄權中國用他們自己的政治判斷自己的國內法對我國國民進行這樣的跨境鎮壓是不合法的惡霸的行徑那本先遺憾我們立法院的"},{"start":8280.51,"end":8298.737,"text":"韓院長可能看到沈博洋是基於黨派的關係都沒有發出聲援那我們今天在上禮拜通過對沈博洋委員的聲援以及譴責中國案之後我們今天提出對我們的國軍被中國這樣子的跨境鎮壓"},{"start":8299.717,"end":8323.366,"text":"提出聲援對於中國的惡劣行徑給予嚴厲的譴責而且聲援的對象其實是指我們所有的國人任何一個台灣的人民不管有什麼主張不管是什麼行業中國無權管轄這個與政治立場背景無關與我們國家自己的主權獨立相關以上的提案說明在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8326.038,"end":8348.484,"text":"沒有意見的話我們就照案通過來請宣讀第二案臨時提案第二案鑒於中國長期扭曲1971年10月25日聯合國大會通過的第2758號決議錯誤聲稱該決議支持其所謂一中原則並藉此阻撓台灣參與聯合國及其他國際組織不僅侵害我國人民之國際參與權益"},{"start":8349.964,"end":8375.578,"text":"亦破壞台海和平穩定現狀為明確駁斥中國錯誤主張並重申我國立場原件請作成以下決議聯合國大會第2758號決議僅處理中國在聯合國的代表權問題權文並未提及台灣與我國無色該決議並未認定台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分更未授權中華人民共和國可在聯合國代表台灣"},{"start":8376.358,"end":8392.788,"text":"亦不等同中國所主張之一中原則此為無可辯駁之事實中華民國臺灣系主權獨立國家與中華人民共和國互不隸屬唯有臺灣的民選政府才能在聯合國等國際組織中代表臺灣人民針對美國政府與國會及州議會澳大利亞"},{"start":8399.192,"end":8410.836,"text":"參議院及新南威爾斯州議會荷蘭眾議院加拿大眾議院英國夏議院捷克參議院及眾議院外委會比利時聯邦眾議院瓜地馬拉國會馬紹爾群島國會貝里斯參眾議院及波蘭國會波台"},{"start":8417.538,"end":8427.43,"text":"波台國會小組等民主國家中央或地方議會先後以公開聲明或決議明確指出聯大地2758號決議未設台灣地位並駁斥中國之錯誤詮釋表達支持台灣國際參與除教廷力不恰之外"},{"start":8435.659,"end":8460.34,"text":"其與我國右邦政府亦在聯合國大會、世界衛生大會等多邊場合明確支持台灣獲納入聯合國體系以及歐洲議會、歐盟執委會、對中政策跨國議會聯盟及全美議會交流協會、理事會等國際民主力量所展現之堅定支持立法院外交及國防委員會僅代表台灣人民致以誠摯感謝"},{"start":8461.781,"end":8473.634,"text":"提案人委員王定宇 羅美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢好 謝謝我們本席做提案的說明這是一個早就該處理的案子"},{"start":8474.98,"end":8489.937,"text":"全世界各主要的民主國家從澳洲到歐盟到北美洲甚至於連美國各州的很多州議會都通過2758號決議文無赦台灣而我們遲至今日我們的院會遲遲不願處理"},{"start":8492.259,"end":8514.597,"text":"甚至於在討論剛才聲援國軍譴責中國以及現在2758號決議文本席也很遺憾的在野黨國民黨民眾黨的委員似乎是不願或者不敢都沒有在現場那也都離開我們的這個會議的現場那2758號決議文大家去google維基百科就好了不用看我們寫的內容"},{"start":8516.352,"end":8526.566,"text":"裡面的文字沒有一句話處理台灣我們所有的人民的代表權它是處理中華人民共和國在中國的代表權問題這是2758號決議文在民國60年代當時通過的"},{"start":8532.847,"end":8546.362,"text":"可是長期以來中國錯誤扭曲的運用2758號決議文創造了一個所謂一中原則或一中政策然後排除了台灣人民參加世界衛生大會世界衛生組織 國際行政組織"},{"start":8549.209,"end":8568.197,"text":"各項的國際組織都是扭曲錯誤引用的2758號決議文而2758號決議文從澳洲參議院開始各國通過的就是2758號決議文無赦台灣這是台灣國際參與很重要的法理基礎身為人民選出來的國會"},{"start":8569.625,"end":8598.097,"text":"各國的國會站在真實跟正義那一邊而我們的國會持至今日還沒有通過這個國會的這個大會的決議文所以今天我們在國防外交委員會如同義大利的外交委員會一樣我們提出了這個臨時提案那事實上從開羅宣言波斯坦宣言到2758號決議文台灣的政治歸屬主權歸屬從來就沒有被處理沒有被代表而經過民主化之後從李登輝總統"},{"start":8599.558,"end":8628.292,"text":"陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到賴清德總統九任的總統台灣人民一票一票直選做出的選擇證明了一件事情主權在民主權在中華民國的人民主權在台灣的人民身上所以主權是我們自己的所以2758號決議文與台灣無色所以本席基於以上理由提出本臨時提案請問在場同仁有沒有意見或要補充說明"},{"start":8629.619,"end":8644.511,"text":"沒有的話我們照案通過 謝謝好 接下來進行詢答的委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在謝龍介委員請進行詢答"},{"start":8661.128,"end":8685.614,"text":"主席我請外交部來 請吳次長國安局副局長副局長是委員好處長你好委員好關於這個你知道我們台灣喔跟日本的民間的往來是非常平凡"},{"start":8691.052,"end":8696.778,"text":"所以說台灣的鄉親對日本的印象普遍不錯日本的過去等級跟我們關係也不錯但是李志輝我剛才有聽到你的答案就是說今天你狀況不太好我主席三長兩我給你求情"},{"start":8713.556,"end":8725.719,"text":"他剛才對澳洲回來有失差 讓他體諒一下 抱歉這樣好 這樣剛好需要休息一下沒有 很好 情人很好 抱歉 剛才說錯了 真抱歉這個 卡蘇一般若是國旗首相 在表達他的意思的時候"},{"start":8741.616,"end":8748.029,"text":"如果沒有以台灣有事情做前提 你看中日期間會不會有這樣的衝突我想"},{"start":8754.178,"end":8754.658,"text":"這就是這樣啦"},{"start":8776.297,"end":8802.328,"text":"因為在特朗普總統跟中國大陸一般的談判過程中的狗狗現在並沒有踏破面所以造成整個黨阿阿台所有的見解 大家都猜出比較保留那麼你不知道 記得在兩年前 老總統曾經有說過 要聯合"},{"start":8805.393,"end":8809.315,"text":"幽默的民主國家,他就是在說美國跟日本三星對著中國大陸軍事的威脅力,你覺得還會記嗎?會記嗎?會記的嘛,如果是這樣,日本的思想對著配合我們老總統"},{"start":8826.859,"end":8836.964,"text":"會現行所以今天來說台灣有事情跟日本有事情不管他在論述的過程中包含什麼如果這樣我們今天可以遞書讀書"},{"start":8840.64,"end":8847.564,"text":"我剛才講過現在世界其實不只有日本世界都覺得不可以有戰爭爆發現在一定有烏克蘭還有以色列我知道世界不是日本我告訴你但是日本現在出這個狀況他現在為了要天然他要跟我們社廷說這些話那麼這些話的前提就是老總統曾經有邀請日本"},{"start":8866.816,"end":8875.904,"text":"結果日本來做溝通 要對付中國大陸 兩年前就是這種意思今天日本跳下來 甚至強調比老總統更加透清我們身為日本的好朋友 你覺得我們有需要在這個方面做強硬的表達嗎"},{"start":8888.41,"end":8901.294,"text":"我相信 是不是我們做好的朋友 我們也是一份做好的朋友所以這一份的公判 我覺得他的抽象 再說一次就是他對台海的安全來 我請那個國安局客人比較了解在內部國安會討論裡面 總統有指示針對這個部分 我們要採取必要的共和的言論 入場包委員"},{"start":8918.716,"end":8940.645,"text":"這個部分 前面我參與的沒有接過這樣的一個訊息但我們通常也會關心日本情勢的一個發展畢竟這樣一個情勢發展 起因於中共 俄羅斯跟北韓這樣區域安全的威脅所以老總統現在就是要求台灣要保持企業的中間就對了"},{"start":8942.197,"end":8943.918,"text":"接下來進行詢問的委員是林益君委員"},{"start":8987.867,"end":8997.545,"text":"謝謝主席有請國安局副局長副局長請委員好"},{"start":8998.621,"end":9018.937,"text":"副局長好想必你應該非常的清楚美國的美中經濟暨安全檢討的委員會USCC是美國政府的一個獨立機關這個美中經濟安全委員會每年都會發布報告都是美國政府和立法機關重要的施政的參考就在上個禮拜他們發布了年度的報告"},{"start":9019.777,"end":9030.36,"text":"內容多達了733頁其中光是提到台灣的次數不包含目錄的就已經高達1223次現在還在報告的第11章中專門寫了一篇討論台灣問題的專章那針對USCC的年度報告的第4章裡面標題是競爭的實質入口中國與東南亞"},{"start":9043.203,"end":9063.964,"text":"其中第239頁的建議有提到要加強菲律賓與四方安全對話的合作所以要求指示國務院建立了四方對話的機制這個建議非常的明確就是要讓菲律賓實際參與四方安全對話的運作還有資訊上面的共享"},{"start":9064.705,"end":9069.708,"text":"那副局長你認為我們台灣同樣面對了來自中國的各種脅迫還有軍事的威脅台灣的壓力應該沒有比菲律賓小吧所以為什麼台灣從來沒有實際參與到釋放安全對話的這項安全機制的實際的運作甚至USCC這份報告裡面也完全都沒有提到"},{"start":9085.999,"end":9097.771,"text":"那富吉爾你認為台灣一直都被排除在外的原因到底是什麼我們和美國現在的關係不是史上最好的時刻嗎我們和美國不是最好的友好同盟嗎那你認為台灣是不是也應該主動爭取實際參與事方安全的對話的運作或至少是成員國的資訊分享呢"},{"start":9105.448,"end":9134.528,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們跟國際友盟有很多合作的管道未必就是某某的一個譬如說是四方對話那也很多國家沒有加入但我們政府之間其實跟各國友盟其實都有密切的一個聯繫以情報機關來講我們也有合作管道所以事實上那個合作力度並不亞於這樣的一個合作力度事實上重點在於彼此能夠建立一個協作"},{"start":9136.309,"end":9163.602,"text":"區域聯防的一個概念所以這個部分事實上是有另外的方式我們會從這方面來著手進行所以你的意思是說台灣是不會主動爭取實際參與這個釋放安全的運作當然就是有這樣的機會但是還要看其他國際的情勢還有各國的一個觀點所以就我們角度來講其實我們是用務實的角度去推這樣的一個合作"},{"start":9165.205,"end":9172.73,"text":"那在針對USCC的這份報告第11章裡面有專門討論台灣的問題在針對政策建議上面都是有提到建議美國國會應該指示國務院啟動一項非武器支援服務的對外軍售的項目用以加強美國在台灣周邊的嚇阻的能力然後建議上面有一些具體的作為是要加強美國現在所有的"},{"start":9188.981,"end":9192.343,"text":"整個舉措和機制尤其是美國和菲律賓簽署的加強國防合作協議那美國應該要求台灣要提供資金那請問副局長你認為台灣應該為美國在日本和菲律賓的軍事資產提供資金嗎還有你認不認同台灣應該為美國與菲律賓在呂宋島北方的軍事資產付錢"},{"start":9213.317,"end":9228.011,"text":"然後就你的軍事專業來看報告裡面建議美國要啟動所謂的非武器資源服務的軍售的項目這些指的又是哪些項目呢對台灣我們有缺乏哪些非武器性的軍事資產呢"},{"start":9230.434,"end":9258.055,"text":"我想這個是對國有這個建議我們其實台灣有很多包括民間產業還有相關有跟這些產業鏈均衡產業鏈的相關的合作這些都可能是一些可以未來可以施作的一個方向那這個這樣的建議我想我們應該會做另外有權責單位會去做審慎的評估去進行推動"},{"start":9259.341,"end":9286.529,"text":"所以你認為台灣應該為美國在日本和菲律賓的軍事資產提供資金嗎這個要專業評估啦事實上有很多管道包括我們的企業產業這些也都可以接軌剛剛之前有提到民主產業鏈嘛或飛鴻供應鏈這些都可以整個來整體考量所以報告裡面的就是要啟動所謂的非武器資源服務的軍售項目那指的是又是哪些項目呢"},{"start":9293.648,"end":9316.9,"text":"包委員因為這個部分我目前沒有非常深入了解所以後續了解以後再跟委員報告那請問像這一個裡面有提到很多跟台灣有關的內容都是基於中國的威脅那其實美國對USCC的其實對台灣的問題是非常重視的那請問副局長你們國安局到底對美國這份報告的內容有沒有掌握"},{"start":9326.815,"end":9335.801,"text":"還是你們根本就是沒有掌握如果你們沒有掌握的話這樣起報工作的人力真是令人很憂心"},{"start":9339.66,"end":9361.798,"text":"沒關係 那還是請副局長回去的時候再好好的來看一下研讀一下美國USCC的這份報告因為台灣的專章的結論裡面有一段有提醒我們說要維繫兩岸和平的重要性不然就是會危及台灣的經濟貿易的所以我想說請副局長回去的時候再研讀一下"},{"start":9365.021,"end":9391.363,"text":"這個部分我們同仁是有掌握到但這部分的話我們回去會進一步了解接下來我針對中日衝突的問題再請教一下副局長就是說近期的東亞情勢非常的動盪所以依照國安局最近的情勢分析和判斷你認為目前中日的緊張情況有沒有緩解的趨勢然後是否還在持續的升高中呢雙方爆發軍事衝突的可能性有多高"},{"start":9392.284,"end":9407.826,"text":"目前雙方短期之間的關係可能很難緩解目前但是就日本政府的態度他們是立場是堅定也表示不會收回這個首相的言論"},{"start":9408.747,"end":9422.604,"text":"那也表示政策沒有改變但是他們會尋求溝通現在就看中共在這方面的一個回應目前看起來還是透過外交還有經濟手段持續在做一些恫嚇所以後續我們還要觀察這個情勢的一個發展"},{"start":9426.584,"end":9449.962,"text":"因為近年來我們談論東亞戰略情勢的時候其實常常會提到上海的聯動就是黃海、東海、台海的情勢互相的牽動甚至現在已經加入了南海變成四海聯動也就是發生任何一個地區的事件都很容易直接影響到其他區域的國家如果中日真的爆發了軍事的衝突台灣絕對不可能被置身事外的"},{"start":9450.302,"end":9461.588,"text":"根據以往的經驗過去國際間軍事衝突的爆發都是在大家無法預料的情況下發生的那目前國安相關單位有沒有針對這種極端的狀況做一些推演呢我們"},{"start":9466.451,"end":9493.838,"text":"國安團隊我們會配合像政府有一些復安專案相關的一個整體的兵推事實上會把這些情緒情勢的發展都會納入考量那就我們國安局角度來講也會密駐這些情勢的發展然後提供給我們相關權責部門來應處所以是有的是不是對 就是會將這些情勢納入這些整體兵推的一個考量"},{"start":9494.963,"end":9518.377,"text":"好,那我再延續剛才相同的問題啦,反過來說,日本近年來的建軍都是台海可能發生衝突的方向做準備,所以日本明年預計在修正一個安保三文件,同時也會針對防衛裝備移轉三原則進行放寬,甚至也可能會放寬了無核三原則,也就是不擁有、不生產,還有不引進核武器。"},{"start":9518.837,"end":9524.158,"text":"但是這一段時間看來已經有好幾個跡象了暗示日本未來可能會引進核動力潛艦在10月31號日本那個官房的長官也向媒體證實海上自衛隊已經在評估引進核動力潛艦那請問副局長日本如果把無核三原則的不引進拿掉未來日本有沒有可能引進核動力潛艦的技術甚至到美國和日本部署核彈呢"},{"start":9545.983,"end":9569.697,"text":"請問有無評估這對印太地區政治局勢的影響目前就我們了解日本政府內部還在討論還沒有定案因為看到是南韓已經在跟川普總統討論的時候引取的建造核檢見的一個方案所以"},{"start":9571.098,"end":9582.775,"text":"我們後續也要觀察日本在這方面是不是就非核三原則的調整還有包括它安保三文件的調整狀況我們會來進一步來觀察"},{"start":9585.174,"end":9588.377,"text":"還有一個有關日本修改防衛裝備移轉三原則的部分就是要廢除限制防衛裝備品的出口可是也就是未來日本可能會擴大軍事裝備的出口實際上日本近年來的裝備出口已經有擴大的趨勢了"},{"start":9602.532,"end":9627.456,"text":"那今年7月日本軍售了6艘退役驅逐艦給菲律賓8月獲得澳洲11艘最上級的防艦的訂單所以我這樣看來日本一方面逐漸在放荒法律的授權另一方面也開始加速軍事裝備的出口那請問副局長從目前的區域政治的整個的發展來看未來台灣向日本進口軍事裝備的可能性有多大"},{"start":9627.996,"end":9654.495,"text":"這我想應該是我們國防部專業部門會來做評估但事實上就日本這個輸出裝備我們看到有支援像菲律賓 越南等等國家最主要目的是也是在區域的安全的一個聯防所以共同遏止中共在軍力擴張到東海 南海 台海等等所以這個部分我們會持續來做觀察"},{"start":9655.103,"end":9657.425,"text":"因為有一個問題就是台灣未來有計畫可能要繼續徵購愛國者飛彈但是美國因為軍援烏克蘭的關係導致了內部的庫存都不夠了加上美國可能產能也有限現在連美國自己都已經開始向日本購買愛國者飛彈了"},{"start":9670.999,"end":9696.748,"text":"所以我在想說這個是不是有可能以後直接向日本採購呢是不是給縮短供應鏈的時間比較不容易發生交易延宕的問題呢因為我想對外軍購總是會涉及到國際關係和政治上面的判斷所以國安局是不是要協助國防部讓國防部更能知道該什麼時候向哪一個國家提出軍購需求那國防部跟國安局有沒有這樣存在的溝通機制呢"},{"start":9697.433,"end":9717.139,"text":"我們跟國防部的溝通管道非常暢通經常也會有一些業務聯繫相關的情訊委員關切的部分我們只要掌握的話我們也會分享給國防部做參考好 謝謝林運勳委員 各位請回接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9738.271,"end":9747.08,"text":"你好 我們先請次長來 次長請委員好"},{"start":9747.901,"end":9770.395,"text":"市長好 市長我先針對歐洲的議題來跟你請教因為現在我們看到最新的有關28點和平方案那在烏克蘭被侵略的一方儘管在遭受這麼多的這種攻擊之後那現在提出來的這個被討論的方案看起來是對烏克蘭不是很有利的一個草案"},{"start":9771.095,"end":9793.354,"text":"我先想要請教一下因為這兩天有關於這個文件的訊息很混亂那有些參議員說這是國務卿盧比歐私下有向他們表示說這28點方案是俄羅斯的願望清單那但是主流的媒體CNN BBC等等基本上大家都提出來大概在前面都會說是川普的28條和平方案"},{"start":9794.295,"end":9810.358,"text":"那外交部是否已經有透過駐美代表處或者是其他的管道向美方查證到底這28點的這個清單是不是這一個美方提出來的方案還是有我們提出來這個剛才講到的這些新聞上面有提到的可能是俄羅斯的願望清單"},{"start":9812.25,"end":9836.882,"text":"我想第一點這現在只是一個提議而已並不是結論第二點歐洲國家在於反對俄羅斯就發動戰場戰爭的立場真的是非常強烈然後沒有人在歐洲基本上除了非常少數之外跟我們一樣沒有人希望是給予俄羅斯他們是戰勝國的這樣的一個感覺"},{"start":9838.323,"end":9850.856,"text":"所以反對大國侵略小國這樣的一個感覺是非常清楚的所以引帶而言他們對於第一個他們當然也不希望我們亞太區有戰爭發生那基本上我也感受到非常強烈對台灣的一個支持"},{"start":9859.202,"end":9877.97,"text":"我這麼說好了這28條的和平方案裡面我們仔細再去閱覽之後那是對烏克蘭是不利的他其實基本上是在獎勵基本上在獎勵侵略者我也看到最近有一些評論者在台灣的他們似乎是有一種幸災樂禍的感覺"},{"start":9878.57,"end":9901.843,"text":"他們認為說這個烏克蘭早就該接受這樣子的和平方案他們認為說美國沒有辦法好好的去提供這個安全保護然後反而去指責烏克蘭以及歐洲國家他們沒有辦法自主的提供烏克蘭更好的防衛那我在這邊還是要強調烏克蘭其實是在替他不是一個歐洲戰爭而已"},{"start":9902.563,"end":9923.61,"text":"它是已經跨州的戰爭包含北朝鮮跟中國的直接或者是間接的接入伊朗的直接跟間接的接入它基本上是跟所有的國家都是有關聯性的所以台灣沒有任何的立場在這邊好像跟我們沒關係一樣跟我們當然是會有關係中國正在仔細的審視"},{"start":9925.37,"end":9940.329,"text":"歐洲國家跟美國的每一步那我們作為台灣作為一個民主國家作為一個也面臨到一個世界強國的這種可能會侵略的國家我們當然是要表態我們當然是要支持烏克蘭我們當然是要在我們可以的範圍內"},{"start":9941.55,"end":9962.944,"text":"包含所有的這個資源不是說未來的重建像現在能夠提供什麼樣的安全上面的資源就必須要提供現在要怎麼樣避免說我們的產品輸入到俄羅斯讓他們成為戰爭機器就要全力去避免包含說我們之前還有一些什麼清油等等這些我們都必須要好好的審視因為中國正在看"},{"start":9963.664,"end":9984.586,"text":"如果說我們28條這種和平協議這就是他們的和平協議這種和平協議是把他們的主權國家的領土獎勵給侵略國我想這個是全民都要很清楚的了解如果說烏克蘭必須要接受假設啦假設是這一個和平方案我相信他還會在變動因為有很多歐洲國家他勇敢的站出來"},{"start":9985.306,"end":9999.638,"text":"願意來替烏克蘭做更多那當然這個隨著他們的參與那這樣子的和平的方案當然就是會比較有利烏克蘭但是我們必須要顯示一下自己我們必須要好好的思考說現在台灣能夠做什麼因為如果"},{"start":10000.399,"end":10024.866,"text":"局部的勝利他們把這個烏克蘭的從東邊的這幾個州他們局部的勝利沒有辦法拿到基輔就可以換取這樣子的和平方案能讓他們得到法理上面擁有這一些他們的戰旅區我覺得這是很令人擔心的中國會從中得到一些啟示他們會認為說那我下次可以"},{"start":10025.871,"end":10031.446,"text":"不用就算是爆發全面的這個台海戰爭他只要取得部分戰果國際也會容許啊"},{"start":10032.679,"end":10057.321,"text":"市長你覺得台灣現在在這個狀況之下是不是要扮演起更大的責任跟角色報告委員我上禮拜就在柏林安全會議做了一個專題演講其實裡面提到就是說現在歐洲跟我們印太地區其實已經完全連結在一起了彼此之間的安全已經是必須互相"},{"start":10058.141,"end":10065.465,"text":"重視的那歐洲關心烏克蘭也非常清楚我在法國的時候就正好看到Zelensky正好來法國訪問他們大概是在談烏克蘭戰爭的議題所以台灣當然要表現出對於烏克蘭的支持"},{"start":10073.989,"end":10077.53,"text":"目前台灣表現出來基本上都是透過像捷克 斯洛伐克 波蘭 立陶宛波羅的國家希望可以給烏克蘭更大的援助我們這樣的提議就我們全力參與然後把烏克蘭戰爭也當作是我們國家安全的一個很重要的部分我想都普遍受到歐洲國家的歡迎這是我這次去歐洲的一個感受"},{"start":10102.618,"end":10123.404,"text":"市長我還是再講一下不要只有在人家勝利的時候才支持對方我看到我們這個支持的力道隨著烏克蘭的戰況有些時候是成反比的在人家集結勝利的時候天天都在推特上面或者是在X上面天天PO文現在面臨到這種28條和平方案的時候在比較劣勢的時候"},{"start":10124.524,"end":10138.472,"text":"我們的聲量有跟之前一樣嗎我當然知道次長是關心歐洲的但是我必須還是要提醒包含外交包含國防包含國安這個時候在困難的時候更要展現出我們願意協助的這種狀況"},{"start":10139.833,"end":10163.611,"text":"我還是強調一下2022年開始包含日本都提供烏克蘭的飛武器資源他們的五種類型都可以提供救難 運輸警戒 監視 掃海這些都是可以提供的如果日本可以這樣做的話我們必須也要這樣做他是在替我們做台海戰爭的防衛如果不是因為烏克蘭的話中國會更大膽 會更冒進會更願意採用各種方式來去挑戰台海的和平"},{"start":10164.071,"end":10189.048,"text":"所以我看在第一集在戰略上面它是某種層面是戰略赫茲這些其他國家在印太的這些早進如果我們現在不扮演一些角色的話那下次當我們遇到困難的狀況的時候整個印太地區大家就仿效現在這種28條方案那我們該怎麼辦而且我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有什麼幾週幾週可以割讓給俄羅斯"},{"start":10192.17,"end":10214.009,"text":"我們也沒有克里米亞我們沒有第二次機會我們只有一次機會所以現在我們本來就應該要扮演更重要的角色我這邊還是希望次長能夠如果再跟國安單位有會談的時候來去看一下日本的防衛裝備移轉的方式從中來去思考說我們現在可以做什麼"},{"start":10214.89,"end":10238.713,"text":"在這幾年的烏克蘭戰爭之中俄羅斯包含中國跟北朝鮮他們從中得到了很多學習到很多現代武器包含無人機裝備包含這個反無人機等等的這些技巧戰技我們基本上是沒有學習到任何地方的我們沒有任何的這個我們不但沒有這個派駐我們的這一些相關的人員在那邊觀察"},{"start":10240.194,"end":10256.02,"text":"像中國都有朝鮮都有這些人就在累積他們的經驗朝鮮還派兵所以這些人跟這一些軍事上面的經驗都已經活化在他們未來的戰爭的準則上面或者是這個操作的準則上面我們現在是空白的狀態"},{"start":10256.94,"end":10279.656,"text":"因為我們甚至最近我們不是還在開記者會嗎我們台灣竟然還有在賣一些資源給俄羅斯啊所以我們到底有沒有跟國安單位一起來整合一下有哪一些領主艦也好重要的資源也好我們現在還是在跟俄羅斯在交易的有沒有這些都是我們必須要思考的有沒有在跟朝鮮有沒有在跟俄羅斯我們怎麼可以再資助有可能會傷害我們的國家呢所以"},{"start":10281.348,"end":10298.935,"text":"有很多事情要做當然這不是外交部一個單位要做的剛好跟經濟部然後一起來討論我有時候看到說我們我還是再強調一次這個不要在別人勝利的時候才支持別人然後現在面臨逆風的時候"},{"start":10299.855,"end":10326.138,"text":"更要展現出我們作為民主國家的意願我們不是說我們有價值外交嗎那我們要展現我們的價值我知道次長至少在歐洲的方面參加的各個會談裡面都有表現出我們對烏克蘭的支持我今天講這些東西是因為我在上禮拜我就已經跟包含烏克蘭的國會議員還有巴爾幹半島以及波羅的海相關的這些國會議員我們基本上都有在做一些"},{"start":10328.559,"end":10353.586,"text":"討論 那我們有討論到28條的方案那每一個人 每一位國會議員都會在他們自己的家鄉來替歐洲做努力那他們也提到這不是歐洲失誤了這再也不是歐洲失誤了會發生在烏克蘭的我們要避免它發生在台灣那所以我們必須要讓戰士在烏克蘭就被嚇住住所以我們能做什麼參考一下日本的這個轉北一轉三原則那我們多"},{"start":10354.406,"end":10382.473,"text":"提供就多提供多制裁俄羅斯就多制裁好不好是的我們會照委員的指示去做請委員放心謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員各位請回接下來進行尋答的委員葉元之委員麻煩請那個外交部次長來吳次長請"},{"start":10390.029,"end":10403.954,"text":"委員好市長好 跟你請教一下那個川普所提出來的五五二十八點和平計畫因為您也有提到說歐洲反彈非常激烈啦所以現在這個是不是定案應該不是啦他們還要再繼續的對談嗎跟協商嘛"},{"start":10406.434,"end":10426.284,"text":"我有看到歐洲有三個國家也提出一個對應版英國 法國 德國提出一個對應版代表說這28點最後是長什麼樣子還不知道是的這28點川普剛提出來的時候您自己的感覺怎麼樣你覺得這個是站在烏克蘭的立場它是一個合理的清單嗎計畫嗎"},{"start":10428.143,"end":10455.078,"text":"我在柏林安全會議演講的時候特別提到就是烏克蘭戰爭歐洲發生的問題安全問題現在跟亞洲已經完全連結了我想在場數百人都對這樣的一個看法是抱以熱烈的掌聲所以我自己認為目前的28點提議我剛才已經提了很多次就是歐洲國家基本上是有非常大的疑慮的我是說問你個人的看法"},{"start":10456.221,"end":10485.421,"text":"我自己當然個人看法是我對這個也是有很大的疑慮因為我不能讓歐洲不能讓美國其實我是想要引導另外一個問題這個代表什麼呢這代表說美國所提出來的很多看法那個都是在他們自己國家的角度對其他國家不見得是有利的但是當你其他的國家提出適當的對應版或者是適當的不同意見的時候這個部分是可以協商的那我是希望說台灣其實也應該站在這樣子一個立場跟角度"},{"start":10486.101,"end":10501.809,"text":"譬如說最近新聞有報外媒報導說美國政府有個報告說希望台灣可以出錢去升級菲律賓的軍事基地讓美國來用這個事情是新聞有報導這個是應該你有聽說嗎有我想問市長態度我們政府的立場是照單全收還是會跟歐洲一樣會提出我們自己的看法"},{"start":10513.956,"end":10528.841,"text":"我跟委員報告一下國際關係理論有一個burden sharing共同負擔像NATO 像各種集體安全條約其實要維護安全各國都必須應濟的責任這個就是要回答剛才菲律賓 美國跟日本跟我們都是like-minded country雖然我們沒有正式的協防條約在這個地區我們共享很多共同利益"},{"start":10541.766,"end":10556.824,"text":"因為我的時間比較有限所以你的意思是說我們會照單全收這樣的看法就對了沒有 那也是個提議我現在只把這個理論這背後的philosophy講出來所以我們的態度是什麼我們有對應版嗎我們一定要跟菲律賓跟日本跟美國"},{"start":10557.344,"end":10573.932,"text":"共同負擔不是啦 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請回"},{"start":10655.289,"end":10682.842,"text":"今天已登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林楚瑩委員沈伯陽委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定各位辛苦今天會議到此結束散會"}]}},{"id":"165784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103fbe0b1469a2c619246adc14d631adda6ce48de7d8cd95b0db22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:06:23 - 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好不好那就請那個國防部副部長也請回座那個我們劉部長我們談另外一個議題"},{"start":212.502,"end":240.032,"text":"這剛剛也做了決議了國有財長法第46條這個法例一直沒有修正也沒有廢除國有耕地得提供為放租放領之用然後由內政部會商財政部擬定報請行政院核定之包括第二項也是一樣這個國有耕地放領實施辦法也一直都沒有廢止"},{"start":241.772,"end":269.265,"text":"也都一直有效的一个办法这里面规定的很清楚国有耕地放领对象为中华民国65年9月24日以前已承租该国有耕地自本办法发布时仍继续承租使用之农民依法换曰承租使用之农民或由其继承人"},{"start":270.32,"end":296.569,"text":"繼承成豬使用之農民事實上過去內政部在民國九十幾年的時候的內政部一再的跟行政院要求必須依法行政要繼續辦理但是你看當時的行政院這個當時的行政院並沒有這樣做最主要就是在"},{"start":297.714,"end":327.127,"text":"民國96年的時候民國96年的時候行政院停止違法停止辦理這個工地放年這是整個原由是這樣所以要就絕對應該要依法行政而且是要符合憲法的相關的這些規定"},{"start":328.837,"end":357.965,"text":"然後呢這是土地法第25條我們就想地方政府的現有土地或私有土地直轄市或縣市政府對於其所管公有土地非經該管區內民意機關同意並經行政院核准這個程序這是地方自治最基本的原則公有現有的土地"},{"start":359.956,"end":374.606,"text":"現有的土地或是直轄市有的土地他經過民意機關同意報給你內政部內政部應該要趕快報行政院來核准我們看這個台東台東縣政府在今年的11月11號"},{"start":388.963,"end":414.657,"text":"提出了這個台東市新延段79地號無比非公有的現有土地現有非公用耕地現有非公用耕地11月11號報行報行政院當然是先交給內政部內政部什麼時候可以送行政院來核准部長"},{"start":417.472,"end":433.024,"text":"報告委員這個是屬於個案的部分我再回去查查一下但是也跟委員報告委員非常清楚這個所謂工地放領那目前我們就是工地放領原來有的這個行政辦法我們沒有更改"},{"start":433.524,"end":443.248,"text":"所以才會有65年以前的原則或者是跟養殖用地相關那中間有停辦三次都是因為天災1999年921地震2004年桃枝颱風2008年是莫拉克颱風"},{"start":450.45,"end":477.756,"text":"所以國有耕地裡面如果現在是山坡地跟國土保安有關係的話大概就不會在這一次的工地放你的範圍那剛剛我在回應其他委員關心的時候是以國有平地耕地以及養殖用地為主部長你提到了96年之所以這個停辦停止辦理當初是依這個國土富裕策略方案及行政計畫"},{"start":479.144,"end":507.242,"text":"它是一個行政規則這第一個 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烏樹林這個廠是颱風之後集中的一個廠那其實它是暫時的一個廠在整個台南的計畫裡面它也有提特別條例也有預算準備把它清除那不幸的在這段期間它發生不過我們初步雖然在這個火災調查不過最可能的一些原因樹木堆積多了確實它在這個"},{"start":304.86,"end":332.628,"text":"熟化的過程會產生一些木質的一些氣體出來那是比較容易燃燒的可能是這個原因在烏樹林的這個場剛開始的時候但是署長你可以確定裡面沒有其他的有毒物質在燃燒嗎因為我說真的啦你們現在只講常常只講說這個空瓶預警啊只有講PM2.5或PM10的這些常見的指標那請問有沒有其他的有毒物那住在附近的這些居民怎麼辦"},{"start":333.368,"end":361.116,"text":"你們有沒有什麼相關的配套所以現在就兩個問題嘛你要怎麼去檢討精進第一個你的戰事場出現之後你要怎麼去管理他不會發生這樣的事情第二個當發生這樣的事情的時候你們的公布的這些指標還有沒有其他的有毒物質的去鑑定對不對第三個現在常常的短期戰事場都變成永久戰事啊他可以申請再延長申請再延長你到底什麼時候可以把它處理完"},{"start":367.841,"end":391.22,"text":"跟委員報告其實這塊地是先跟國防部借的一塊地台南跟國防部也有在討論它的區劃國防部希望他趕快把它處理掉所以實際上他到今年12月開始他就要啟動他的減量往外運的一個過程他的進度大概是這個樣子"},{"start":391.86,"end":410.755,"text":"沒有署長我要跟你說這是一個事件而已但是最近發生的事件太多了這只是你只是解釋這個事件我要講的事情是你結構性系統性管理上面制度上面你到底要怎麼精進今天發生這個大火你們說要燒多久之前是不是說要燒七天一個禮拜還是要多少時間"},{"start":411.741,"end":433.174,"text":"目前火勢已經控制下來了那現在門燒之後呢會不會又再燒起來呢應該不會現在的消防跟環保單位的人都在現場看不過委員的建議我覺得很好就是說天災的後續這個戰事場的管理上面我們確實可以再精進例如"},{"start":434.074,"end":460.898,"text":"引進跟一般掩埋場一樣的這些設施譬如說紅外線的感應如果溫度有增加的話那這部分可以做一些應該是要要求暫置的時候就要趕快把這個相關的管理上放上去因為你要預防這樣的事情發生嘛你發生之後你去公佈這些數據然後你要再去檢測有毒物對附近的居民是都已經是很大的傷害謝謝委員的建議這個我們真的可以來"},{"start":461.538,"end":490.598,"text":"對再來就是你們越世界的垃圾我也想要請問一下其實當時這個11月5號本席也在委員會執行行政執行行政院核定的112年到117年你們預防環保犯罪暨智慧環保打造綠色幸福家園計劃你們說提報終止那另外要提一個強化全國廢棄物流向的遠端數位管理智慧決策計劃那舊的計劃被你們終止新的計劃現在行政院還沒有核定對不對部長"},{"start":491.878,"end":515.592,"text":"那個預算已經有了但是行政院還沒有核定對嘛行政院還沒有核定嘛那個明年的預算已經編進去但我真的是比較想要請問一下這兩個計畫到底有什麼差別哪一個新的計畫真的比較厲害嗎剛剛你沒有講到有關於所謂智慧維理的系統喔這些這兩個計畫之間到底為什麼你要廢掉原本的然後要用新的是技術更新還是你更有把握可以追蹤的好"},{"start":516.618,"end":537.056,"text":"是 原計劃我們把它精進成後來非法去資源端監控計劃那這計劃可以包含前計劃所以我們就把前計劃經費不要重複 不要跌闖價值我們就把它處理掉那這個智慧維理計劃目前我們預算有匡列"},{"start":538.277,"end":559.242,"text":"希望大院來支持剛剛署長你是有說現在已經有一些智慧維理的使用對不對是 我們先做先導型的示範計畫從我們自己的業務會裡面去做處理所以其實目前你們示範覺得效果很好很好那越世界這個事情是沒有放到智慧維理因為點數不夠所以沒放在那個地方"},{"start":560.162,"end":583.582,"text":"對 所以我就想問嘛發生這種事情誰會想到會有人把它倒在觀光景點那你們這樣未來要佈置點的時候這種地方你要怎麼涵蓋到會 會把它涵蓋到會把它涵蓋進去全國有兩千點所以未來兩千點你會把它全部的佈建進去是 依照我們分析的那個情道的熱點跟可能的區域去做佈設"},{"start":585.278,"end":605.857,"text":"甚至也跟委員報告未來的所有的CCTV監視器經過如果我們的廢清法修正之後我們也會跟警政單位借接所以以後這些東西都跑不掉所以你確定以後用這樣子的管理方式就不會再有人亂倒垃圾都可以掌握得到因為現在其實要的確有一點時間差那未來的話這個時間差可以降到最少"},{"start":606.617,"end":626.651,"text":"部長我覺得這個真的是很嚴重的問題最近好幾次環境部我想這都是現在大家很關注的議題到處有這種所謂的廢棄屋亂清道的部分我要請本席要請你們趕快不要再等了因為你也說過任何一個破壞環境都是罪嘛好不好好再來我想要再問"},{"start":629.016,"end":642.544,"text":"就是有關於光電環評修法的部分因為其實上個禮拜前個禮拜大院已經通過修法了嘛對不對可是我今天看到你們的報告你們寫的"},{"start":643.925,"end":669.361,"text":"好像跟修法的內容是不一樣的今天委員會發的資料你們說山坡地這個裝置容量兩萬千瓦以上或面積15公頃以上者均需實施環評這是代表你們不想要認大院修過的法嗎部長我手上我手上這一本啊今天委員會發的報告你們的環境部的報告第18頁第18頁"},{"start":673.28,"end":685.844,"text":"這是代表還是你們的報告沒有更新是超到還是說你們不想要認是這個意思嗎第18頁今天的報告第18頁上面第二行"},{"start":691.801,"end":704.216,"text":"可能版本不一樣我們我們應該是我們會遵照大院來進行會遵照大院因為你們你們今天這個印出來的報告可能你們後來是還有更新還是怎麼樣所以舊的報告是沒有寫到是不是"},{"start":709.861,"end":731.975,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在報告是有更新在17月我們已經有把大院通過11月14號三讀通過的內容放進去我今天這份 我這個報告是我早上來委員會的時候拿的可是我們手上的是有更新過的我們確實已經把我來簽到的時候拿到這個好 所以你們有改你們會遵照大院的這個修法對不對是好 OK 因為我要告訴部長其實這真的"},{"start":733.664,"end":748.332,"text":"讓民怨四起啊本席在民間的時候大家也聽到說什麼山野光電板水野光電板海野光電板都覺得說環境部到底在做什麼我知道你前面有講過你們希望討論所以但是本席要告訴你們的意思就是說在"},{"start":748.812,"end":768.047,"text":"能源轉型的過程當中就是發生一大堆的弊案重生而且過去環境部多次的說要修研要去重新檢討環評的標準才導致現在我們要去不得不透過修法在母法上面給你們這樣子的一個更上位的法令要求你們嚴格去執行"},{"start":769.068,"end":784.308,"text":"所以部長這個部分希望你們可以尊重大院的決議不過我也期待就是說大院在決定那個量子的時候因為委員我們40幾個在執法裡面現在全部落到母法之後這變成一個很特別的一個特例"},{"start":784.748,"end":812.996,"text":"那黃國昌召委他其實在大院的時候也說那個數值可以來大家來討論可是我很遺憾的那個沒有經過太多的討論部長因為你們研議研議又再研議研議了非常的久本席在這裡聽到多次的質詢你們在研議的過程中就開始有很多的業者不斷的要增大加大他的開發這不得不逼著大院必須要儘速的修法要求環境部好好的落實不要再破壞我們的國土尤其在敏感區域"},{"start":813.578,"end":814.405,"text":"谢谢部长谢谢"}]}},{"id":"165781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781035cf77e15a5f06ec50652d1d50d7223a5ce48de7d8cd95b0df1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:07:20 - 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那還是請副局長回去的時候再好好的來看一下研讀一下美國USCC的這份報告因為台灣的專章的結論裡面有一段有提醒我們說要維繫兩岸和平的重要性不然就是會危及台灣的經濟貿易的所以我想說請副局長回去的時候再研讀一下"},{"start":376.89,"end":405.374,"text":"OK嗎 謝謝委員這個部分我們同仁是有掌握到但這部分的話我們回去會進一步了解接下來我針對中日衝突的問題再請教一下副局長就是說近期的東亞情勢非常的動盪所以依照國安局最近的情勢分析和判斷你認為目前中日的緊張情況有沒有緩解的趨勢然後是否還在持續的升高中呢雙方爆發軍事衝突的可能性有多高"},{"start":406.311,"end":421.833,"text":"目前雙方短期之間的關係可能很難緩解目前但是就日本政府的態度他們是立場是堅定也表示不會收回這個首相的言論"},{"start":422.754,"end":439.515,"text":"那也表示政策沒有改變但是他們會尋求溝通現在就看中共在這方面的一個回應目前看起來還是透過外交還有經濟手段持續在做一些恫嚇所以後續我們還要觀察這個情勢的一個發展"},{"start":440.612,"end":463.992,"text":"因為近年來我們談論東亞戰略情勢的時候其實常常會提到上海的聯動就是黃海、東海、台海的情勢互相的牽動甚至現在已經加入了南海變成四海聯動也就是發生任何一個地區的事件都很容易直接影響到其他區域的國家如果中日真的爆發了軍事的衝突台灣絕對不可能被置身事外的"},{"start":464.332,"end":475.597,"text":"根據以往的經驗過去國際間軍事衝突的爆發都是在大家無法預料的情況下發生的那目前國安相關單位有沒有針對這種極端的狀況做一些推演呢我們"},{"start":480.461,"end":507.866,"text":"國安團隊我們會配合像政府有一些復安專案相關的一個整體的兵推事實上會把這些情緒 情勢的發展都會納入考量那就我們國安局角度來講也會密駐這些情勢的發展然後提供給我們相關全職部門來應酬所以是有的是不是對 就是會將這些情勢納入這些整體兵推的一個考量"},{"start":508.971,"end":530.664,"text":"好那我再延續剛才相同的問題啦反過來說日本近年來的建軍都是台海可能發生衝突的方向做準備所以日本明年預計在修正一個安保三文件同時也會針對防衛裝備移轉三原則進行放寬甚至也可能會放寬的無核三原則也就是不擁有不生產還有不引進核武器"},{"start":532.865,"end":538.187,"text":"但是這一段時間看來已經有好幾個跡象了暗示日本未來可能會引進核動力潛艦在10月31號日本那個官房的長官也向媒體證實海上自衛隊已經在評估引進核動力潛艦那請問副局長日本如果把無核三原則的不引進拿掉未來日本有沒有可能引進核動力潛艦的技術甚至到美國和日本部署核彈呢"},{"start":559.997,"end":583.706,"text":"請問有無評估這對印太地區政治局勢的影響目前就我們了解日本政府內部還在討論還沒有定案因為看到是南韓已經在跟川普總統討論的時候已經取得建造核檢見的一個方案所以"},{"start":585.106,"end":594.641,"text":"我們後續也要觀察日本在這方面是不是就非核三原則的調整還有包括它安保三文件的調整狀況我們會來進一步來觀察"},{"start":599.204,"end":600.926,"text":"還有一個有關日本修改防衛裝備移轉三原則的這個部分就是要廢除限制防衛裝備品的出口可是也就是未來日本可能會擴大軍事裝備的出口實際上日本近年來的裝備出口已經有擴大的趨勢了"},{"start":616.562,"end":641.466,"text":"那今年7月日本軍售了6艘退役驅逐艦給菲律賓8月獲得澳洲11艘最上級的巡防艦的訂單所以我這樣看來日本一方面逐漸在放荒法律的授權另一方面也開始加速軍事裝備的出口那請問副局長從目前的區域政治的整個的發展來看未來台灣向日本進口軍事裝備的可能性有多大"},{"start":642.026,"end":668.494,"text":"這我想應該是我們國防部專業部門會來做評估但事實上就日本輸出裝備我們看到有支援像菲律賓、越南等等國家最主要目的是也是在區域的安全的一個聯防所以共同遏止中共在軍力擴張到東海、南海、台海等等所以這個部分我們會持續來做觀察"},{"start":669.113,"end":671.396,"text":"因為有一個問題就是台灣未來有計畫可能要繼續徵購愛國者飛彈但是美國因為軍援烏克蘭的關係導致了內部的庫存都不夠了加上美國可能產能也有限現在連美國自己都已經開始向日本購買愛國者飛彈了"},{"start":685.03,"end":710.775,"text":"所以我在想說這個是不是有可能以後直接向日本採購呢是不是給收檔供應鏈的時間比較不容易發生交易延宕的問題呢因為我想對外軍購總是會涉及到國際關係和政治上面的判斷所以國安局是不是要協助國防部讓國防部更能知道該什麼時候向哪一個國家提出軍購需求那國防部跟國安局有沒有這樣存在的溝通機制呢"},{"start":711.461,"end":727.222,"text":"我們跟國防部的溝通管道非常暢通經常也會有一些業務聯繫相關的情訊委員關切的部分我們只要掌握的話我們也會分享給國防部做參考好 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吳次長請委員好次長好 跟請教一下川普所提出來的五五二十八點和平計畫因為您也有提到說歐洲反彈非常激烈所以現在這個是不是定案 應該不是啦他們還要再繼續的對談嗎 跟協商嗎"},{"start":26.751,"end":46.307,"text":"我有看到歐洲有三個國家也提出一個對應版英國 法國 德國提出一個對應版代表說這28點最後是長什麼樣子還不知道是的這28點川普剛提出來的時候您自己的感覺怎麼樣你覺得這個是站在烏克蘭的立場它是一個合理的清單嗎 計畫嗎"},{"start":48.16,"end":75.095,"text":"我在柏林安全會議演講的時候特別提到就是烏克蘭戰爭歐洲發生的問題安全問題現在跟亞洲已經完全連結了我想在場數百人都對這樣的一個看法是抱以熱烈的掌聲所以我自己認為目前的28點提議我剛才已經提了很多次就是歐洲國家基本上是有非常大的疑慮的我是說問你個人的看法"},{"start":76.238,"end":105.613,"text":"我自己當然個人看法是我對這個也是有很大的疑慮因為我不能讓歐洲不能讓美國其實我是想要引導另外一個問題啦這個代表什麼呢這代表說美國所提出來的很多看法那個都是在他們自己國家的角度對其他國家不見得是有利的但是當你其他的國家提出適當的對應版或者是適當的不同意見的時候這個部分是可以協商的那我是希望說台灣其實也應該站在這樣的一個立場跟角度啦"},{"start":106.113,"end":133.023,"text":"譬如說啦 最近新聞有報啦 外媒報導說美國政府有個報告說希望台灣可以出錢去升級菲律賓的軍事基地讓美國來用 這個事情是新聞有報導 這個是應該 你有聽說嗎有喔 那這個我想問市長態度我們政府的立場是照單全收呢還是會跟歐洲一樣 會提出我們自己的看法"},{"start":133.973,"end":139.357,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 國際關係理論有一個burden sharing 共同負擔像NATO 像各種集體安全條約 其實要維護安全各國都必須應記責任這個就是要回答剛才 菲律賓 美國跟日本 跟我們都是like-minded country雖然我們沒有正式的協防條約 但這個地區我們共享很多共同利益"},{"start":161.772,"end":173.058,"text":"因為我的時間比較有限所以你的意思是說我們會照單全收這樣的看法就對了沒有 那也是個提議我現在是把這個理論這背後的philosophy講出來所以我們的態度是什麼我們有對應版嗎我們一定要跟菲律賓跟日本跟美國"},{"start":177.341,"end":194.329,"text":"共同負擔不是啦我是覺得要第一個你還是要去談啦不是美國要我們幹嘛就幹嘛因為很多人會覺得這很不合理嘛我們跟菲律賓我們去花錢去建他們軍事基地我們跟他還有一些衝突勒"},{"start":195.009,"end":224.509,"text":"美國也有對我們直接援助啊譬如說像太平島的事情我們跟菲律賓就有主權爭議啊然後再來就是我們跟菲律賓目前沒有邦交我們去建立他們的軍事基地那你想辦法去跟他建交嘛沒有 他是我們那個共享我們共同理念的嘛我覺得與其是這樣反正我看美國官員的說法是說這個有助於台灣達到國防預算到GDP5%那與其這樣我們既然要花錢不如叫美國多賣一點我們有用的武器嘛"},{"start":225.149,"end":238.865,"text":"或者你說再怎麼樣其實意思一樣錢就是直接給美國嘛當時台美在關稅談判的時候美國有一個經濟顧問就說有四種方式可以讓台灣的關稅下降其中有一項就是直接捐錢給美國這意思已經差不多了"},{"start":239.816,"end":260.229,"text":"這其實就差不多只是用一些技術性的方式好像看起來不是直接捐錢給美國但其實就是因為那個軍事基地本來是美軍要自己花錢建的嘛但現在要台灣花錢建所以不就等於我們把錢拿給美國是一樣的意思嗎我覺得在談這個事情的時候因為大家有很多疑慮啦不要讓台灣好像被當成盤子啦"},{"start":261.044,"end":272.383,"text":"就叫我們去幫其他國家升級軍事設備跟基地我覺得大家聽起來會覺得好像真的有點被予取予求啦這個部分我覺得要很謹慎好 謝謝是 謝謝委員 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BBC等等基本上大家都提出來大概在前面都會說是川普的28條和平方案"},{"start":56.306,"end":72.381,"text":"那外交部是否已經有透過駐美代表書或者是其他的管道向美方查證到底這28點的這個清單是不是這一個美方提出來的方案還是有我們提出來這個剛才講到的這些新聞上面有提到的可能是俄羅斯的願望清單"},{"start":74.264,"end":98.893,"text":"我想第一點這現在只是一個提議而已並不是結論第二點歐洲國家在於反對俄羅斯就發動戰場戰爭的立場真的是非常強烈然後沒有人在歐洲基本上除了非常少數之外跟我們一樣沒有人希望是給予俄羅斯他們是戰勝國的這樣的一個感覺"},{"start":100.333,"end":104.358,"text":"所以反對大國侵略小國這樣的一個感覺是非常清楚的所以引帶而言他們對於第一個他們當然也不希望我們亞太區有戰爭發生那基本上我也感受到非常強烈對台灣的一個支持"},{"start":121.216,"end":139.983,"text":"我這麼說好了這28條的和平方案裡面我們仔細在去閱覽之後那是對烏克蘭是不利的基本上是在獎勵侵略者我看到最近有一些評論者在台灣的他們似乎是有一種幸災樂禍的感覺"},{"start":140.583,"end":163.874,"text":"他們認為說這個烏克蘭早就該接受這樣子的和平方案他們認為說美國沒有辦法好好的去提供這個安全保護然後反而去指責烏克蘭以及歐洲國家他們沒有辦法自主的提供烏克蘭更好的防衛那我在這邊還是要強調烏克蘭其實是在替他不是一個歐洲戰爭而已"},{"start":164.594,"end":185.801,"text":"它是已經跨州的戰爭,包含北朝鮮跟這個中國的直接或者是間接的接入,伊朗的直接跟間接的接入,它基本上是跟所有的國家都是有關聯性的。所以台灣沒有任何的立場在這邊好像跟我們沒關係一樣,跟我們當然是會有關係,中國正在仔細的審視。"},{"start":187.381,"end":202.342,"text":"歐洲國家跟美國的每一步那我們作為台灣作為一個民主國家作為一個也面臨到一個世界強國的這種可能會侵略的國家我們當然是要表態我們當然是要支持烏克蘭我們當然是要在我們可以的範圍內"},{"start":203.584,"end":224.975,"text":"包含所有的這個資源不是說未來的重建像現在能夠提供什麼樣的安全上面的資源就必須要提供現在要怎麼樣避免說我們的產品輸入到俄羅斯讓他們成為戰爭機器就要全力去避免包含說我們之前還有一些什麼清油等等這些我們都必須要好好的審視因為中國正在看"},{"start":225.675,"end":246.596,"text":"如果說我們28條這種和平協議這就是他們的和平協議這種和平協議是把他們的主權國家的領土獎勵給侵略國我想這個是全民都要很清楚的了解如果說烏克蘭必須要接受假設啦假設是這一個和平方案我相信他還會再變動因為有很多歐洲國家他勇敢的站出來"},{"start":247.316,"end":261.648,"text":"願意來替烏克蘭做更多那當然這個隨著他們的參與那這樣子的和平的方案當然就是會比較有利烏克蘭但是我們必須要請示一下自己我們必須要好好的思考說現在台灣能夠做什麼因為如果"},{"start":262.429,"end":286.885,"text":"局部的勝利喔 局部的勝利喔他們把這個烏克蘭的這個從這個東邊的這幾個州他們局部的勝利局部的勝利沒有辦法拿到基輔就可以換取這樣子的和平方案能讓他們得到法理上面擁有這一些他們的戰旅區我覺得這是很令人擔心的中國會從中得到一些啟示他們會認為說那我下次可以"},{"start":287.901,"end":315.544,"text":"不用就算是爆發全面的這個台海戰爭他只要取得部分戰果國際也會容許啊市長你覺得台灣現在在這個狀況之下是不是要扮演起更大的責任跟角色報告委員我上禮拜就在柏林安全會議做了一個專題演講其實裡面提到就是說現在歐洲跟我們印太地區其實已經完全連結在一起了"},{"start":316.244,"end":327.494,"text":"彼此之間的安全已經是必須互相重視的那歐洲關心烏克蘭也非常清楚我在法國的時候就正好看到Zelensky正好來法國訪問他們當然是在談烏克蘭戰爭的議題所以台灣當然要表現出對於烏克蘭的支持"},{"start":336.002,"end":339.545,"text":"目前台灣表現出來基本上都是透過像捷克、斯洛伐克、波蘭、立陶宛、波羅的亞國家希望可以給烏克蘭更大的援助我們這樣的提議就我們全力參與然後把烏克蘭戰爭也當作是我們國家安全的一個很重要的部分我想都普遍受到歐洲國家的歡迎這是我這次去歐洲的一個感受"},{"start":364.523,"end":385.019,"text":"市長我還是再講一下不要只有在人家勝利的時候才支持對方我看到我們這個支持的力道隨著烏克蘭的戰況有些時候是成反比的在人家集結勝利的時候天天都在推特上面或者是在X上面天天PO文現在面臨到這種28條和平方案的時候在比較劣勢的時候"},{"start":386.54,"end":400.521,"text":"我們的聲量有跟之前一樣嗎我當然知道次長是關心歐洲的但是我必須還是要提醒包含外交包含國防包含國安這個時候在困難的時候更要展現出我們願意協助的這種狀況"},{"start":401.843,"end":425.621,"text":"我還是強調一下2022年開始 包含日本都提供烏克蘭的飛武器資源他們的五種類型都可以提供救難 運輸 警戒 監視 掃海這些都是可以提供的如果日本可以這樣做的話 我們必須也要這樣做他是在替我們做台海戰爭的防衛如果不是因為烏克蘭的話 中國會更大膽 會更冒進會更願意採用各種方式來去挑戰台海的和平"},{"start":426.101,"end":451.062,"text":"所以我看在第一集在戰略上面它是某種層面是戰略赫茲這些其他國家在印太的這些藻井如果我們現在不扮演一些角色的話那下次當我們遇到困難的狀況的時候整個印太地區大家就仿效現在這種28條方案那我們該怎麼辦而且我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有什麼幾週幾週可以割讓給俄羅斯"},{"start":454.204,"end":476.042,"text":"我們也沒有克里米亞我們沒有第二次機會我們只有一次機會所以現在我們本來就應該要扮演更重要的角色我這邊還是希望次長能夠如果再跟國安單位有會談的時候來去看一下日本的防衛裝備移轉的方式從中來去思考說我們現在可以做什麼"},{"start":476.923,"end":500.708,"text":"在這幾年的烏克蘭戰爭之中俄羅斯包含中國跟北朝鮮他們從中得到了很多學習到很多現代武器包含無人機裝備包含這個反無人機等等的這些技巧戰技我們基本上是沒有學習到任何地方的我們沒有任何的這個我們不但沒有這個派駐我們的這一些相關的人員在那邊觀察"},{"start":502.208,"end":518.05,"text":"像中國都有朝鮮都有這些人就在累積他們的經驗朝鮮還派兵所以這些人跟這些軍事上面的經驗都已經活化在他們未來的戰爭的準則上面或者是這個操作的準則上面我們現在是空白的狀態"},{"start":518.951,"end":541.567,"text":"因為我們甚至 最近我們不是還在開記者會嗎我們台灣竟然還有在賣一些資源給俄羅斯啊所以我們到底有沒有跟國安單位一起來整合一下有哪一些零組件也好 重要的資源也好我們現在還是在跟俄羅斯在交易的 有沒有這是我們必須要思考的 有沒有在跟朝鮮 有沒有在跟俄羅斯我們怎麼可以再資助 有可能會傷害我們的國家呢"},{"start":543.382,"end":560.965,"text":"有很多事情要做那當然這不是外交部一個單位要做的剛剛有跟經濟部然後一起來討論我有時候看到說我們我還是再強調一次這個不要在別人勝利的時候才支持別人然後現在面臨逆風的時候"},{"start":561.866,"end":588.149,"text":"更要展現出我們作為民主國家的意願我們不是說我們有價值外交嗎那我們要展現我們的價值那我知道次長至少在歐洲的方面參加的各個會談裡面都有表現出我們對烏克蘭的支持那我今天講這些東西是因為我在上禮拜我就已經跟包含烏克蘭的國會議員還有巴爾幹半島以及波羅的海相關的這些國會議員我們基本上都有在做一些"},{"start":590.17,"end":613.359,"text":"討論啊那我們有討論到28條的方案那每一個人每一位國會議員都會在他們自己的家鄉來替歐洲做努力那他們也提到這不是歐洲失誤了這再也不是歐洲失誤了會發生在烏克蘭的我們要避免他發生在台灣那所以我們必須要讓戰士在烏克蘭就被嚇住所以我們能做什麼參考一下日本的這個專備遺傳三原則那我們多"},{"start":616.44,"end":623.371,"text":"提供就多提供多制裁俄羅斯就多制裁好不好是的我們會照委員的指示去做請委員放心謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781039cdeafa5ccd7a50146adc14d631adda6ce48de7d8cd95b0db22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:16:50 - 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请副部长请回再来我要邀请的是内政部刘士芳部长"},{"start":255.813,"end":279.453,"text":"部長好部長接下來我要提到的就是有關你這個消防警報像過去的話在疫情期間彰化橋友大樓發生了這個火警的警報可是第一時間大家都不覺得說這個是真的發生火災大家都覺得說這可能是一個測試一個testing所以到那時候就發生了一些讓人家遺憾的一些傷亡事件"},{"start":279.873,"end":294.59,"text":"那後來後續也是你看我們2023年2024年陸陸續續都有發生就是說大樓的這火警的警報響了可是大家就是有些網友說啊天啊怎麼都沒有看到有人在逃好像大家對於這個消防警報呢"},{"start":295.373,"end":303.699,"text":"沒有一個說我立即就要逃的這種反射動作那以後遇到空襲警報也好 海嘯警報是不是民眾也都會認為說這其實就是一個測試沒有那麼立即性的危險也許因為這種想法會造成一些讓人家遺憾的後果"},{"start":314.986,"end":334.803,"text":"所以像這個的部分我們要如何提升這個一般民眾對於這個消防警報的警戒心謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分呢為什麼我們發放這個手冊就是告訴大家說那個意識要提升啦不是說大家跑你再跟著跑而是你要先跑那這個意識的提升呢我相信我們未來消防安全的教育上面一定會再加強那同時呢我們大概會有這個你剛剛講到海嘯的部分第一個海嘯的話我們中央氣象署也會發"},{"start":343.59,"end":351.94,"text":"然後警察的系統也會發那還有如果時間來得及的話我們搭配地方的警察會用廣播車的方式像這次驗射壺因為這個村里長辦公室的廣播系統壞掉那警察同仁趕快用他們手上的麥克風去處理這一塊"},{"start":359.269,"end":386.409,"text":"那這個部分呢未來在消防演習的時候我們會把這個所謂的消防警報的警鈴是不是不要造成所謂的狼來了這樣的效應呢會在做意識上提升的教育對所以目前看到的就是說也許空襲警報海嘯警報這個部分的話這是當然是同跟這個消防警報雖然是同一個議題可是消防警報可能是大家接觸的最頻繁的"},{"start":387.991,"end":403.485,"text":"一個議題 可是我們發現說現在有很多的民眾都會覺得 像部長剛才覺得說 欸 狼來了 狼來了所以每次遇到消防警報 大家都覺得說 欸 這可能又是一個測試這可能不是真的有火警發生 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15 16 18條這些重大案件因為這跟學生的權益都有關聯性"},{"start":83.907,"end":101.417,"text":"外界當然就是講說那個爛數可是科學依據數據是會說話的討論制度不能只談只講恐慌的感覺要看事實第一個是案件量事實上是沒有暴增我們國家人權委員會委託研究顯示在消失會議"},{"start":102.518,"end":130.419,"text":"制度修法前的106到108年学年度每年启动调查案件平均量事实上是每年事实上是900件修法后109年到111年学年度一年平均大约750件这表示修法前后每年真正启动调查的案件量大部分事实上是还蛮平均反而是修法后反而还稍微低一点所以家长团体大家也共同指出说"},{"start":130.979,"end":149.133,"text":"並沒有因納入私對深霸凌而出現了幾倍的暴增更談不上全面的爛數那另外一個就是嚴重懲處比例事實上是極低真正的被停聘解聘的案件並不是這麼樣的多因為從最新數據來看的話那從2024年的4月17到2025年的5月30號消失會議總投訴案件數事實上1372件"},{"start":160.681,"end":185.564,"text":"那其中受理了1124件可是在所有投訴当中最终仅26件达到停聘解聘程度这仅占总体的投诉案件量的1.9%而已所以真的说不上是人人自为是的一个我们的滥诉风暴那如果对比右教的数据的话我觉得校师会议大概也"},{"start":186.684,"end":207.869,"text":"并没有爆量为什么这样提呢在2024年的全年我们的幼教的接获量大概事实上是780件相较于高中以下学校一年的1372件的投诉总量的话这两者的量并不会有差异太多甚至幼教的反而事实上还比较高一点所以整体来看"},{"start":209.369,"end":236.099,"text":"爛數不是制度的問題而是前端分流不夠精準那到底要怎麼去做所以要往對的方向去改才能夠減少小案大辦所以我支持教育部的修法方向也就是匿名檢舉原則不受理因為匿名檢舉真的會造成案件量偏高然後所以我支持刪除然後匿名檢舉原則就是不受理而且不過要特別強調的是不應該把"},{"start":238.76,"end":260.754,"text":"要保護這一個檢舉的人的身份他的個資一定要做到一個好的保護所以為了解決根本解決小案大辦跟一送級調查的慣性我建議強化前端的受理分流跟審查的一個門檻因為前端受理應該比照右照法的違法"},{"start":261.254,"end":290.491,"text":"事件調查模式由教育局委託一個審議小組來決定是否受理通報這樣子就可以做到分流所以關鍵是受理分流的責任不應該落在學校身上那就增加學校非常多的行政成本這樣的案件是否受理的爭議就會要在前端就解決不會全部都送到校事會議來最後當然就是要公正就要更獨立所以"},{"start":291.328,"end":319.411,"text":"第三方的機制一定要強化未來的制度必須要更透明專業避免多數的委員多數的認定委員都是教師身份變成都是自己人在審自己人所以調查跟審議我認為都應該由外部的第三方來做主導跟幼教的違法事件調查處理流程一樣要訂出認定委員會的專業背景跟比例那第二個就是跟幼教不當對待一樣一起建立全國的共同的專業人才庫特別是兒童權益"},{"start":320.572,"end":344.524,"text":"特教性平这些领域要有更明确的最后判准才能够兼顾专业特性跟保障学生的权益最后我想说的是教育部要去做到不是让制度变多而是要让制度变好校师会议根本就是要处理重大案件不是什么都抓什么都审那这样子的话当然会让老师"},{"start":345.685,"end":355.444,"text":"進入寒蟬甚至老師根本就不想進入到教育現場以上 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召委我請一下彭部長來 請部長楊維好 部長好 部長我們這次非洲豬瘟引起很多關於廚餘去化的討論 那很多很多縣市可能將來也都會禁止廚餘養豬避免有一些傳染的風險"},{"start":36.758,"end":58.926,"text":"台灣每天的廚餘大概有超過六成是靠餵養組織來處理是 現在 對那經過這一次的事情以後呢可能有一大部分都是直接進入焚化爐可是呢這個不只會對焚化爐的設備造成影響也會產生到外"},{"start":60.836,"end":89.601,"text":"戴奧鑫等等的空污的問題所以有幾個問題請教部長就是在這一次的事件中有專家提出日本相關的處理廚餘養豬的方式是比較先進的那他們也沒有非洲豬瘟的問題主要是因為先將廚餘區域集中處理而且乾燥飼料化我們未來有沒有可能"},{"start":90.791,"end":93.636,"text":"考慮統一由中央政府集中處"},{"start":95.956,"end":121.557,"text":"全程來管理珍珠中心避免個別業者違規的情形謝謝委員的這個問題其實這個部分我們其實跟農業部一直不斷的在討論這個問題那至於說這個珍珠中心的共同珍珠這個是農業部在主政那當然我們在溝通過程當中因為上禮拜有一群委員跟我們的團隊也有到日本去看"},{"start":122.017,"end":147.7,"text":"那非常贊同委員你說的這個意見那共同爭主中心是有它的必要性存在但是那個農業部他們有特別提到說台灣的這個國情都覺得說自己組的會比較好別人組的呢可能到我這邊是不是可以到一個認證所以這個部分呢我們有聽到多方的意見都在辯論當中所以現在呢我們希望這個禮拜可以有一個更完整的一個答案出來"},{"start":149.112,"end":169.635,"text":"對 當然沒有一個政策是可以十全十美不過假如說個別徵組就是有的時候多數的手法合規的業者有時候會被受到波及個別徵組的部分個別徵組我之前也有講過就是要怎麼去徵"},{"start":170.617,"end":180.238,"text":"要怎麼去監控這個也是有問題所以假如說全國統一處理的珍珠中心可能"},{"start":182.791,"end":211.171,"text":"環境部跟農業部有一個共同的政策方向甄主中心是屬於農業部在主政那我們是處理這個廚餘委員你剛才說到的現在如果完全禁的話那當然大概有將近50%的廚餘會進到焚化爐那的確會造成我們現在很大的壓力那我們是希望是不是有一個落日有一個時間點然後把各個縣市的這個廚餘的處理量能夠拉起來所以這個部分方案還在討論當中"},{"start":212.812,"end":232.389,"text":"都需要有一個落日的時間所以在這段時間裡面呢環境部這邊要怎麼降低需要燃燒的廚餘看是先乾燥處理還是怎麼樣減少空氣汙染"},{"start":235.891,"end":247.425,"text":"對我們現在只能說第一個是一定要瀝水把水瀝掉瀝乾然後他在燒的時候然後那個焚化爐的操作他一定要溫度不能降低所以他有一定的操作的一個流程"},{"start":247.947,"end":270.843,"text":"那目前我們看那個各個焚化爐操作是沒有什麼太大問題而且我們也找過專家還有焚化爐專家去討論大概可以10%的廚餘在焚化爐運作都沒有不會產生大躍興的問題但是我們還是會未來這一個月會叫他們再額外再測一次大躍興可是假如只有一層可以進入焚化爐那其他的呢"},{"start":271.663,"end":299.831,"text":"我現在大概有四成八進到焚化爐其他的話可能是堆肥或是生殖能等等反正就是必須要在就是假如說廚餘的部分要進入焚化爐先前的把關還是很重要這個環境部可能要去落實這樣子的一個政策方向"},{"start":301.972,"end":324.533,"text":"碳費的繳納呢明年就要上路我想要請問一下部長看看環境部這邊到底準備好了沒有因為我們大概明年5月就要就要實質繳納對不對對嘛那依照今年的排放量申請"},{"start":326.462,"end":332.53,"text":"來申報繳納碳費呢大概環境部這邊規範的收費對象有有280億間公司500個工廠他們申報了嘛"},{"start":341.927,"end":366.602,"text":"報告委員現在最新的數字是465個廠252家公司然後大概現在已經有430個廠提出自主減量計畫也就是說他不想要繳300塊他只要繳50或100那剩下大概35個廠他可能就在那個邊緣他只要繳一點點錢而已所以基本上目前我們來看的話因為他自己要提自主減量計畫他就要符合我們國家減碳的目標"},{"start":367.323,"end":370.673,"text":"所以我是覺得碳費的制度在這次來說的話因為這樣的誘因反而是蠻不錯的一個結果"},{"start":373.971,"end":398.808,"text":"部長我先說因為你來環境部也一年半了其實我對你的政策落實的能力是很肯定的所以也希望我們就是因為碳費的繳納就是已經要實施了嘛所以有一些相關的問題可以先行做規劃的要規劃出來"},{"start":403.231,"end":425.181,"text":"大概第一年預估可以收入多少大概40億左右 40億好 那40億呢有40億的收入那這一些呢 就是這一些錢必須要挹注在溫室氣體管理的基金對不對 對然後專款專用 對你們現在有沒有"},{"start":426.221,"end":442.758,"text":"有沒有就是以後收入要支出的方向有那部長就利用這個機會把他詳細的說一下大概有20億是最主要是要集中在減碳例如說有些減碳的技術或是說各個"},{"start":444.139,"end":467.012,"text":"不管任何的單位不管是中央地方的單位假設提出一個可以有效的減碳的量我們就可以直接來補助給他研發的計畫大概20億左右雖然不多但是很有用那第二個呢是有一些綠色的這個項目可以一些銀行的融資我們可以補貼這個利息大概有幾億的附近那條市呢我們也編列了大概3到5億左右"},{"start":467.932,"end":481.02,"text":"調適 因為氣候變略調適會越來越嚴重那目前這個部分會由我們這邊主動來編列那其他的部分呢包含了這個國際合作還有甚至我們環境部氣候署他本身的運作所以大概呢total大概是40億左右的預算"},{"start":482.939,"end":503.142,"text":"所以就是大概是用來補助綠色融資然後地方政府的相關的就是他一定要提出一個實際上可以減碳的量那我們可以來卓越給他補助地方政府提還是一般的企業也可以"},{"start":505.164,"end":518.892,"text":"我們還是以事業為主就是公司行號我們是鼓勵那個例如說他要減碳的 他要繳的碳費他如果要減的更多 我們就鼓勵補助給他一些希望他更積極的去減"},{"start":520.332,"end":540.199,"text":"那這個的審核跟把關一定要很小心因為畢竟不是假如是給地方政府有的時候比較不會有產生很多問題那直接補助給民間企業的話這個部分可能相關的機制"},{"start":541.328,"end":565.424,"text":"也要趕快去做一定的規劃我還是希望我們碳費收了還是可以用在減碳的部分剛剛部長的說明我覺得大概就是這樣子的方向應該是很不錯的好 謝謝部長 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請吳次長國安局副局長副局長是委員好處長你好委員好關於這個你知道我們台灣喔 跟日本的民間的往來是非常繽紛"},{"start":31.087,"end":36.812,"text":"所以說台灣的鄉親對日本的印象普遍不錯日本的過去登記跟我們關係也不錯但是李志輝我剛才聽你在談話說今天你狀況不太好我主席三長兩我給你求情"},{"start":53.59,"end":65.752,"text":"他剛才對澳洲回來有失差 讓他體諒一下 抱歉這樣好 這樣剛好需要休息一下沒有沒有 很好很好 抱歉剛才說錯了 真抱歉這個 卡蘇一般若是國旗首相在表達他的意思的時候"},{"start":81.65,"end":88.063,"text":"如果沒有以台灣有事情做前提 你看中日之間 會不會有這樣的衝突我想"},{"start":94.212,"end":94.692,"text":"這就是這樣啦"},{"start":116.331,"end":142.379,"text":"因為在特朗普總統跟中國大陸一般的談判過程中的狗狗現在並沒有聽話面所以造成整個黨阿阿台所有的見解 大家都猜出比較保留那麼你不知道 記得在兩年前 老總統曾經有說過 要聯合"},{"start":145.427,"end":149.35,"text":"幽默的民主國家,他就是在說美國跟日本三星對著中國大陸軍事的威脅力,你覺得還會繼續?會繼續如果是這樣,日本的雙雙威脅配合我們老總統"},{"start":166.893,"end":176.998,"text":"會現行所以今天來說台灣有事情跟日本有事情不管他在輪述的過程中包含什麼如果這樣我們今天可以遞順"},{"start":180.694,"end":187.597,"text":"我相信絕對不會 我剛才講過現在世界其實不只有日本世界都覺得不可以有戰爭爆發我們現在一定有烏克蘭還有以色列我知道世界不是日本 我跟你講但是日本現在出這個狀況他現在為了要天然他要跟我們社廷說這些話那麼這些話的前提就是老總統曾經有邀請日本"},{"start":206.85,"end":215.938,"text":"結果日本來做溝通 要對付中國大陸 兩年前就是這種意思今天日本跳下來 甚至強調比老總統更加透清我們身為日本的好朋友 你覺得我們有需要在這個方面做強硬的表達嗎"},{"start":228.444,"end":240.071,"text":"我相信 是不是我們做好的朋友 我們也是一份做好的朋友所以這一份的公判 我覺得他的抽象 再說一次就是他對台海的安全來 我請那個國安局客人比較了解在內部國安會討論裡面 總統有指示 針對這個部分我們要採取必要的 共和的言論 入場包委員"},{"start":258.75,"end":280.69,"text":"這個部分 起碼我參與的沒有接過這樣的一個訊息但我們通常也會關心日本情勢的一個發展畢竟這樣的情勢發展 起因於中共 俄羅斯跟北韓這樣區域安全的威脅所以老總統現在就是要求台灣要保持企業的中間就對了"},{"start":282.893,"end":302.642,"text":"我沒有辦法記那個臆測總統的一個言論啊所以說我們國家安全的角度我們會注意到區域安全情勢的發展這是必然的我認同阿蒙 請你交到國安委秘書了解一下好 謝謝謝謝委員 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審查委員分別擬具勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案計30案2 審查委員黨團分別擬具就業服務法部分條文修正草案計12案本日會議討論思想採綜合詢答"},{"start":1780.482,"end":1804.091,"text":"經委員林國成 王育敏 蘇清泉 林建啟 徐欣盈 屠權吉及陳昭芝代表臺灣民眾黨黨團說明提案指去由勞動部部長說明後 委員林月琴等22人提出質詢均經勞動部部長 行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員黃厚吉及財政部國庫署主任秘書羅信榮及各相關主管等即席答覆"},{"start":1804.871,"end":1822.547,"text":"決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆後請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等三十案及就業服務法部分條文修正草案等十二案均另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1825.762,"end":1852.33,"text":"好請問委員會上市議事錄有錯誤或疑慮之處沒有謝謝那我們就議事錄確定那本會議議程為第一邀請環境部部長列起報告業務概況並備質詢第二邀請環境部長就聯合國第三世界氣候峰會之後臺灣氣候治理方向與如何提升臺灣氣候變遷績效指標名次落實二零五零近年"},{"start":1853.8,"end":1869.33,"text":"排放路徑策略進行專題報告並備諮詢那以上業務報告及專題報告採綜合詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭之城委員第二位是王振旭王委員"},{"start":1873.27,"end":1889.916,"text":"環境部長 彭啟明氣候變遷署署長 蔡玲怡資源循環署署長 賴盈盈化學物質管理署署長 蔡孟玉環境管理署署長 顏旭明"},{"start":1892.509,"end":1903.554,"text":"國家環境研究院副院長 吳月春綜合規劃師 師長 洪淑慶環境保護師 副師長 呂雅文大氣環境師 師長 黃偉明水質保護師 師長 王玉斌環境資訊科技師 師長 張順興人事處 處長 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海沒有啦但是整個量能在國內的任何的議題都有我們的事所以我們的目標是希望以科學為基礎推動淨零轉型跟資源循環打造健康安全永續的臺灣而且我們現在做這些事情不是只有臺灣做也必須跟國際接軌我們希望跟全球共做"},{"start":1987.25,"end":2005.727,"text":"落實這些的目標但是我們要做這些事其實在過去幾個月從7月開始我們就不斷的遇到極端的天氣事件的影響包含丹納斯颱風這個有史以來最強的風造成嘉義布袋的衝擊然後完了之後就是近乎莫拉克等級的雨量"},{"start":2006.167,"end":2024.363,"text":"然後再下來這個華家沙颱風造成這個馬家安這個煙澀湖的一個事件所以也對造成說我們環境的議題就過去這幾個月本部的所有同仁都在忙在處理光電板處理這個實棉還有廢棄物的處理還有馬灘安的在後的環境復原那目前這幾個呢"},{"start":2026.324,"end":2048.459,"text":"馬太安的這個事情呢我們先說其實目前呢這個已經佔置了大概70幾萬噸未來我們預期會有100萬噸那目前呢我們會朝比較去化來處理因為這個量基本上是比很多的目前的掩埋廠到大上很多那第二個呢運用非洲豬瘟呢因為各位國人很關心的目前呢這個我們現在先以這個廚餘的應變清理順暢為最主要的目標來宣"},{"start":2052.522,"end":2069.132,"text":"鼓勵我們的國人能夠源頭減量特別是說如何要利水的部分我們過去一年平均是2100噸一天有2100噸這疫情期間大概降到1700多萬噸等於是說1700多噸所以效果是非常的好那另外一個是目前各個縣市的廚餘的"},{"start":2073.784,"end":2090.405,"text":"除以這個量能的處理目前來看的話我們目前大概48%是來做焚燒但是我們也經過我們的專家去做詢問了也評估會議大概有10%以下的"},{"start":2091.386,"end":2106.742,"text":"一般焚化爐它的量能如果是10%以下燒這個廚餘是沒有問題的但是我們會加強這個代澳新的這個衝擊還有實際上的一個操作那目前整個量能我們希望能夠盡快可以趕快起來的確現在大概還有一點點落差"},{"start":2107.242,"end":2135.632,"text":"那目前呢本部呢也派員去參與日本的廚餘的考察日本呢當然這個是我們可以參考的目標包含了他的家戶小吃呢他主要是以焚化為主然後他也會有生殖能跟肥料那其他的部分呢如果團散跟餐廳他的確是可以飼料化鍋肥料化的方式來進行這個都是我們現在在參考的我們期待呢這個這個禮拜政府跨部會的協調包含行政院來協調我們應該會對外界有一個正式的一個一個做法會出來"},{"start":2136.172,"end":2151.027,"text":"要不要落日或是說要不要禁這個因為這個涉及到很多的部會很多的單位還甚至廚餘的去化這不是一個單一部會可以解決的問題目前來說的話我們希望這個禮拜可以有更好的一個解決再進行對外宣布那其他的部分呢包含了這個"},{"start":2152.498,"end":2174,"text":"資源循環的轉型目前我們現在有兩個一個上次我報告過的稀有貴金屬留置國內塑造綠色台灣的品牌然後我們目前的這個法的部分還有環保技術研發都在進行當中而且我們現在有一個產業在推動那關於法的這個部分目前行政院正在審定當中我們希望最快的時間趕快送到大院來"},{"start":2174.6,"end":2189.987,"text":"我們最主要的是資源循環推動法是希望最大化的循環然後廢棄物心理法目標就是最小化的這個廢棄這個包含大家最關心的廢棄物的處理這個都在這個裡面我們希望能夠嚴懲不罰甚至從源頭的一個管理來做這些事情"},{"start":2190.487,"end":2211.022,"text":"那第二個是氣候變遷的這個NDC 3.0我們過去這一年多最大的努力就是把新的NDC往上提升因為過去是24加減1現在是28加減2而且我們現在目前這個目標還是僅次於日本雖然韓國也最近提出來了看起來很像比我們野心強一點但是韓國他的過去的"},{"start":2212.443,"end":2232.966,"text":"碳排還是持續在成長當中的我們目前過去這三年我們的減碳已經到了2024年去年的最新的數據是減量了6.7跟2005年相比所以我們按照這個速度今年2025的減碳目標我們預估會有9%到10%左右所以目前我們還是朝向減碳的一個目標其實在前進"},{"start":2233.667,"end":2249.634,"text":"那我们的这个很努力的在进行跨部会的调升这个气候的韧性包含了说我们对于热浪其实我们今年推动的热浪的这个影响那未来呢我们会推动更多的一个项目我们希望以科学治理在地行动还包含了教育跟青年一起来推动"},{"start":2250.214,"end":2277.701,"text":"那此外我們本部也協助政府機關有一個永續長聯盟所以我們現在正在積極的推動綠色採購那個綠色採購到去年為底為止公部門跟民間部門大概總共是891億台幣左右我們現在訂了一些指標在推動我們希望2030年可以到達10%也就是說到1650億當然這個因為公部門的預算有限的可是民間部門的採購是很大的"},{"start":2278.041,"end":2297.04,"text":"所以我們現在也在擴大綠色產品的認定我們希望透過政府來帶頭加上民間可以把這個我們的綠色的商品能夠帶動起來這個包含了國發會 國工程會還有金管會也一起在合作那本部也積極的透過公私協議的辦法來推動這個政府的永續政府的領航"},{"start":2297.68,"end":2318.522,"text":"除了这个政府的永续长联盟之外还包含了绿色成长联盟这个是台湾大的排探员一起去进行碳交易还有抗高温的对策因应高温的调试还有资源循环的联盟还有建立绿生活的大联盟一起来推动这个事情那此外呢本部呢也对于这个绿领人才我记得我们去年在这个时候在立法院的时候很多委员问我们说"},{"start":2319.022,"end":2341.863,"text":"很多民間的一個人課要30萬其實很多詐騙的行為目前這個大概都已經消失殆盡了我們本部積極的來推動綠領人才而且不是本部做 跟32所大學合作目前在初步上已經得到一個績效現在大概已經有2000多人受到訓練未來我們會以一年3500人作為一個目標另外一個空品的部分"},{"start":2342.523,"end":2368.016,"text":"我們今年特別推動了跨部會啟動校園空瓶的4層的一個防護網針對這個靠近工業區的學校然後它等於是常常會被告發的等等的我們會工業區的學校附近的總體檢還有第二個我們鼓勵各個縣市來推動校園的空瓶維護區然後讓污染的交通不要進去那第三個就是針對校園的污染的通報能夠特別給它加強"},{"start":2368.776,"end":2392.909,"text":"還有一個就是校園空品的一個管理那目前我們本部跟衛福部也啟動了一個雙次長的會議的平台也就是我們共同來召集來討論健康跟空氣的相關的研討會所以各位熟悉的空品或空污的專家都在這個裡面特別是很多重量級的學者我們希望找出來說到底我們的台灣的為什麼我們的肺癌率有全球八十幾個國家"},{"start":2394.589,"end":2417.758,"text":"這個致死率都是第一名我們台灣也是其中之一我們有沒有辦法找出來有一些除了空污之外有沒有一些生活上還有很多原因我們努力希望能夠從專家的角度科學精準的來做治療這個部分我們會跟衛福部會持續的來合作那在水的部分我們有一個透明淡水的計畫在這個禮拜會開始展開我們就希望透過流域透明的治理"},{"start":2418.138,"end":2436.978,"text":"的示範來推動希望來精準推出各類的污染的防治讓水質更可以穩定而且我們希望這個資訊可以公開讓民眾可以來參與我們初期會以淡水河作為一個目標來推動因為這個淡水河過去累積起來花了幾千億來整治那它當然有一定的成效但是還可以做得更好"},{"start":2437.838,"end":2460.6,"text":"此外我們對於檢警環的檢調的環保犯罪是毫不鬆手的像前幾天發生的越視界的影響對我來說破壞環境就是一種罪不分藍綠白只要有犯罪我們就移送法辦所以目前過去這一年多我們的犯罪所得大概總共有41億元掌握了很多人但是土石方的廢棄的問題"},{"start":2461.701,"end":2483.443,"text":"還是要妥善的解決因為這個如果沒有量能可以找到去化的話還是會偷到所以我們跟跨部會也積極的拓增去化的量能統一管理的強度而且智慧圍籬這個都在今年的預算還希望大院可以給我們支持智慧圍籬的這個計畫那修法的作業我們也在持續的進行當中此外呢因為我們國人呢對於這種所謂的"},{"start":2485.084,"end":2510.9,"text":"臭味特別是養豬養牛的臭味是影響很大所以本部呢在今年呢跟嘉義大學跟平哥大合作因為這兩個大學都是我們的農業的這個重點的一個學校我們在那個地方會跟他們合作希望能夠拼出這種所謂的生殖零廢棄物的處理的體系讓那個地方有一個帶頭的作用真的把它推動起來此外呢本部將會和那個運動部合作來推動運動永續因為這個運動呢是國人很喜歡的這個"},{"start":2514.762,"end":2542.425,"text":"各種的這個活動那如果運動的當中可以把永續把它帶進去其實對我們來說都是一個很有效的做法我們過去已經跟職棒聯盟一起合作了職棒球團合作了但是我們未來希望跟運動部擴展到各式各樣的活動此外呢本部也跟這個德國有一個密切的合作包含碳定價的基礎設施今年已經開始簽訂了我們希望現在今年開始碳費明年開始收明年下半年我們就有一個這個碳交易的平台的這個試營運"},{"start":2543.766,"end":2560.861,"text":"能夠來進行甚至呢綠色科技的報告我們也會跟德國密切的合作那跟巴拉圭的合作呢就是我前幾天在巴拉圭跟他們密切談到很多的地方總共有12項因為這個巴拉圭呢他本身的土地非常大他就我們簡單來說的話是一個很有效的一個做法"},{"start":2561.241,"end":2585.903,"text":"当然我必须说还是以台湾的减碳为优先但是有一些的国际上我们大型的企业如果需要国际的碳权的部分它可以透过巴拉圭台巴的合作我们不希望台湾有一些企业透过票率的手法来获得减碳而是有一个政府可以认可的可以合可的比较公平公正公开的方式来进行我们总共有12项的工作计划在明年会开始逐步的探讨当中"},{"start":2586.543,"end":2613.024,"text":"我們跟日本也有一些密切的合作就是包含了資源循環還有PFAS還有有機化學物的管理我們都積極在進行當中本部其實在今年終於在上個月獲得行政院的通過我們把過去三十幾年的監製師正式調整為環境資訊科技師原來的監測的工作會由大氣師來做一個整合的工作這樣的主要就是一個環境治理的AI化"},{"start":2613.484,"end":2630.411,"text":"那我們希望未來我們在本部的這個對內的行政行政效能的透明度可以提升另外一個對於對外回應的這個幅度可以更快這個就是本部最主要的目的這是我第一份報告那第二份報告要跟各位報告COVID-30的這個計畫"},{"start":2634.066,"end":2656.512,"text":"這個COP30前幾天有延了一天在巴西的貝倫舉行11月10號到21號召開那這個這次因為是NDC新一輪的NDC就是國家的簡單貢獻到2035的目標現在有120個國家都有提出了那目前這次的主要工作最主要的一個很大的標語就是全球工作"},{"start":2656.972,"end":2680.715,"text":"就是Global Mutual这个计划那这次这个会议大概跟往年相比小了一点点大概5万人左右因为那个交通不便然后旅馆又非常的贵那这次主要的结论其实我到早上都还一直在看他们的结论我觉得这次结论是比较松散一点点没有什么太大的让大家很惊讶的一个内容"},{"start":2681.135,"end":2700.175,"text":"例如说大家期待说森林的砍伐是不是可以更明确虽然巴西是一个雨林国家可是他对这样的一个部分并没有说的太多不过最重要的就是说因为巴黎气候协定10年来的如何去把这个速度把它落实可以把它明确化这个是他最主要的核心这里还是有很多的内容"},{"start":2700.835,"end":2725.166,"text":"例如说巴黎协定的6.2 6.4其实这个跟台湾未来都有关的这次都有一些持续上的进展那另外一个是巴黎协定的政策循环开始启动就是说2035年的减碳的量大概是多少全球都会来检视还有一个就是国际的合作因为这次其实很多谈到很多的调试调试其实的资金过去是一年要1200亿他们把它2035年要调高到"},{"start":2727.087,"end":2742.976,"text":"3000億 3000億其實這個量增加了很大可是這是許願池每個國家是不是有辦法拿那麼多錢到國際社會裡面來幫助其他的國家來做調適基金這個有待商榷那我國呢是很自主的務實的雖然我們不是UFCCC的會員國可是我們"},{"start":2743.516,"end":2765.835,"text":"自主的所有的做法都是跟联合国一样的一个标准我们呢提出了NDC 3.0而且我们也提出了两年期的透明度报告还有排放清测完全是跟国际接轨在做这个事情而且呢这次的会议呢我们国内的国人包含的NGO等等大概有百位的人参加大概参与了三十多场的这个周边的一个活动那我们除了这个之外"},{"start":2766.255,"end":2776.587,"text":"還有我們跟友邦的雙邊的對談友邦的外交的活動等等都持續在進行當中我們本部也持續的在進行"},{"start":2778.85,"end":2802.142,"text":"為了協助國人的這個能夠了解COVID本部呢在從去年開始就成立了COVID-30戰型中心很及時的讓我們國人縱使沒有去COVID也可以了解COVID的行為所以我們也設置了一個參與國際氣候行動的專區那我們這次呢提出的NDC 3.0最主要就是說我們剛剛講的減碳的目標其實目前呢因為我們提出這個減碳目標的時候也說到"},{"start":2805.207,"end":2828.055,"text":"國際很大的一個檢視那因為我們提出的這個NDC 3.0在網路上都有公佈總共有10個面向那大家都還目前我們收到的好評是非常的多那我也會主動這個寫信寄給這種相關的重要機構讓他們來能夠了解台灣雖然我們沒有辦法送到聯合國的公約裡面那目前我們國家的溫室氣體排放是持續的下降這裡面我們現在減了6.7%左右跟2005年相比"},{"start":2830.996,"end":2848.448,"text":"那我们我刚才说过2025年我们有机会是9%到10%这个呢如果有一个很大的变数就是再生能源的推量的速度如果再生能源如果太慢的话我个人是非常忧心因为这个会影响到我们减碳的一个幅度特别是电力排放系数能够是不是可以显度的一个降低"},{"start":2849.248,"end":2875.772,"text":"目前大家最關注的就是CCPI 看守德國這個評比目前因為這個評比我們過去它從2005年開始有這個評比下來我們台灣本來常常都是在末段班當中其實這個我們也瞭解的非常的多我在明天開始就瞭解很多不過這次有幾個數據包含了UAEP的排放差距的報告全球的排放還是持續在成長2.3可是我們台灣早就每年都在穩定的往下降"},{"start":2876.252,"end":2898.505,"text":"然後那個JRC的這個EDGAR的報告裡面台灣也是出現整量減量的方式而且在全球碳預算的這個國際的報告裡面台灣是35個經濟成長與碳排放脫鉤的國家之一所以我們會覺得這個報告它的評比結果其實無法反映這個真相那我自己因為過去常常參與在民間的時候就參與很多國際級的一個評審"},{"start":2900.406,"end":2916.893,"text":"我自己在2021年也曾經寫過一篇文章這個指出說這個評比不公正因為他在第一次我參加COVAX十幾年前我就有關注到他們的評比的方式很怪很不合理例如說各位可以看到這個這個是我看環境引用環境資訊他們整理的結果"},{"start":2917.333,"end":2939.788,"text":"你看我們亞洲日本韓國跟台灣這三個國家大概都是後段班那韓國呢其實他過去幾年那麼努力你看他還63名所以韓國的其實前幾年那個韓國的媒體對於他們這個評比在現場都引發很大的一個震端那他這裡面呢還有一些國家例如說他明明都在排放的很多沒有什麼簡單的機制可是他名次都在我們很前面"},{"start":2940.288,"end":2963.27,"text":"所以這個就其實出現了說這次的評比它到底是定性跟定量如何去計算是不是有一些問題所以我個人提出了五個評比方法論的正義它的目標設定我們台灣的它用這個人均的排放量來算是基本上對台灣是很不公平的第二個呢它忽略了實質減量的趨勢那第三個呢是評比評分機制的差異因為這裡面呢有很多主觀性的評比第四個呢是"},{"start":2964.091,"end":2983.121,"text":"我參與過國際的評比尤其是NDC要把它大家平在一起你一定要有一些複審的機制不是說一個人在台灣隨便找幾個人他說了算是要有一個複審的機制我在國際上評比不管評哪一個國家都是這樣那還有一個呢是國際間的共同質疑所以其實這個看守德國這個CCPI在國際上報導的評"},{"start":2984.702,"end":3002.662,"text":"這個量並沒有很多因為大家都知道它有它先進上的缺陷就是讓我們能夠鼓勵讓我們知道說我們還有進步的空間這個部分我們還是給予很大的肯定但是它的確有一些問題存在那我們未來呢我們不管是國際評比如何我們還是要往前走所以我們"},{"start":3003.503,"end":3029.717,"text":"有六大的創新的制度還有行動的計畫20項行動計畫還有配合的國家希望工程的這個策略我們能夠台灣未來可以綠色成長跟205年進行轉型目前呢今年的10月行政院已經全數核定我們在過去一年提出來各個部會的20項的檢探旗艦計畫這個都完全已經核定不過這個經費上呢我覺得還有還希望大院可以給我們很多的一個支持"},{"start":3030.157,"end":3057.996,"text":"那至於說跟巴拉圭的合作呢我們在10月的時候跟巴拉圭有簽訂一個在巴黎協定下的合作的備忘錄這個就是因為在國際上在國際的探權大概可以有5%可以由境外來獲得但是我不是說又花了這個5%去國外買而是說台灣的減碳的各種的技術可以到巴拉圭能夠來合作甚至巴拉圭有可以我們可以透過巴拉圭這樣的關係可以獲得台灣在減碳的部分的更大的一個成效"},{"start":3058.416,"end":3079.687,"text":"所以目前我在前幾天也在巴拉圭跟他們部長有三天的時間有密切的談包含了這個氣候治理循環經濟跟環境治理我們都開始建立這個環境的工作群組我們也會盤點未來我們會跟巴拉圭展開密切的交流一個合作那其他的部分我們本部也會強化氣候邊線的調適包含了未來的調適的這個新一輪的調適行動計畫從明年116年開始展開"},{"start":3084.91,"end":3112.263,"text":"這個部分我們會來預作準備也期待能夠在調試的部分因為減碳的部分因為按照目前這次COPE的這個機會的話我們2011年溫度會從現在的已經升為1.5可能會到2.5到2.8所以我們現在的減碳的這個雖然是很努力在減可是全球並沒有在這個趨勢上面所以我們的調試面對這個未來越熱的一個環境我們勢必要多做一些準備所以最後這次我們這個"},{"start":3114.359,"end":3143.224,"text":"COP30大會公布的備輪的政治套案跟全球共作其實跟我們的氣候治理我們的過去做的事情是一致的甚至我們提出我們的減碳目標都是經過大概4000多人次的一個公聽來完成所以我們會持續的來進行那未來面對氣候變遷還是要以科學為基礎然後要全球的共同行動那我們雖然提出NDCC 3.0這是一個未來的規劃如何落地落實這個就是我們很重要的目標我們本部會積極的率同各個部會一起來推動這個事情"},{"start":3143.644,"end":3170.312,"text":"以上所有報告 謝謝好 謝謝部長部長10分鐘我給你23分鐘但是很認真啦 也很積極相關的因應速度都很快我相信各位拜託這個部長 聆聽部長的報告不管是這個業務報告還是專題報告都非常的詳細加油啦 謝謝部長那接下來"},{"start":3172.233,"end":3197.535,"text":"本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始做詢打做一下宣告本會委員詢打時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於3月前提出預期不受理那暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理歷史提案10點半截止收案那現在請第一位委員陳昭芝來發言"},{"start":3202.024,"end":3222.12,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請部長這位好剛剛您確實是清楚掌握報告快速謝謝部長那部長環境部去年8月的時候有討論這個國家環境保護計畫修正草案當時有一些環團他們批評的是說你移除了這個自然保育章節"},{"start":3223.342,"end":3237.602,"text":"包括這個山災的這個山區的治山防災管理還有陸域的 陸域生態保育還有海洋保育等等那我請問部長這個環團在存勤之後是否環境部有將這些項目再移回新計畫中呢"},{"start":3238.79,"end":3259.484,"text":"有的 這個我們其實這次很多人有肯定因為原來這個是最早寫是以環織布當年的環織布的架構可是後來變成環境布所以這些有一回在這個草案中我們師長要不要再說明一下沒關係 我們其實是清楚我要講的就是說其實後來協調會也做了一些說明其實環境布有做的是要讓大家知道"},{"start":3260.124,"end":3287.577,"text":"其實這是我們肯定有作效讓大家知道那因為外界不知情他們也不知道去哪裡查這個資料所以我下來就是要跟部長建議本席認為涉及凡是認為涉及國家整體發展計畫的部分都可以參考部長可以參考國土計畫專案中公開資訊的他的一個做法像是這個國土署還會在官方網站網站上設立這個計畫專區然後清楚告訴國人說這一次他們整個研議的時間有多久那分別召開了幾次這個諮詢會議"},{"start":3289.338,"end":3303.094,"text":"然後有多少次的部會的協商那也跟大家說明說大概召開了幾次說明會議說明會那並且他在最後每一次會議上面會附上當年出席的人那個會議的簡報還有這個會議紀錄等等這個做法就是請這個部長來參考"},{"start":3308.32,"end":3322.433,"text":"就是有做的事就因為現在的趨勢就是這樣部會在做很多事就像國人有個清楚他可以查閱查詢的地方那請問部長為了環境部這個有關國家環境保護計畫是否可以比照剛剛我談的這個模式呢因為目前你們還沒有做"},{"start":3323.324,"end":3342.381,"text":"這個我們會來研究一下收集一下因為我們很多會議都已經比照做得比他還公開了環保團隊剛剛我提到的那個地方沒有加入他們還是非常關心那是不是可以知道大概多久可以上架這個計畫專案讓大家了解整個進度我們一個月內完成可以照委員的建議"},{"start":3346.184,"end":3372.728,"text":"部長113年公開的國家環境保護計畫修正草案版本當中第六章大規環境有提到就是達到了這個所謂的全國空氣品質就是AQI降低了這個紅色警示的次數那另外一面就說也提到說PM2.5的改善成果是有效的但是我想請教部長空氣品質的管理目標現在指定在PM2.5這樣就夠了嗎 就可行嗎就是說"},{"start":3374.215,"end":3401.497,"text":"其實這件事 這個議題我在6月底有質詢過環境部但是那次您不在場是省次長在場就是空污跟罹患失智症的關聯性所以今天我想要再跟部長再談一次在6月24號的記者會上有一屆一屆代表跟環團召開記者會他們引用的是國際醫學期刊叫Lancet 叫士科博這個是大概排名前幾名的國際醫學期刊他們當中有指出空氣污染被確認為全球失智"},{"start":3402.418,"end":3421.073,"text":"的危險因子之一他們指出跟交通工具排放的廢棄有關的PM0.1的關聯性那沈次長當時也提到世界衛生組織在2021年的時候他的全球空氣品質指引他針對這個主要的空氣溫暖對人類健康影響部分他第一次提到了這個"},{"start":3422.074,"end":3435.955,"text":"就是超細 因為更細了叫PM0.1他會增加全身的發炎呼吸道疾病還有這個心臟血管等等的風險所以我想要請問彭部長你認為國家環境計畫現在只把PM2.5放在KPI裡面這樣夠嗎"},{"start":3438.3,"end":3458.872,"text":"謝謝委員的建議這個當然是不夠啦但是這個PM0.1它是屬於一個新型態的那我前幾個月有遇到美國的EPA的專家也在討論這個問題那他們也在嘗試很多歐洲的國家在設那也跟委員報告我們明年會設三個站那我們先來量量那個到底我們北中南各設一個站"},{"start":3459.352,"end":3474.228,"text":"部長我瞭解你有開始要注意到你剛剛報告總共我算過你至少講了三次科學那我就跟你談科學PM2.5已經很小了可是PM2.5會進入它吸入以後會進入我們全身循環全身都會受到影響但是PM0.1是25倍小啊"},{"start":3475.288,"end":3489.218,"text":"那它是更細啊那你知道我們血液跟大腦有個屏障叫做血腦屏障就是它會透過這個血腦屏障穿過去因為它太小了它會進到我們的大腦那大腦以後它又會碰到那個我們很重要的記憶跟認知的部分叫海馬回"},{"start":3490.098,"end":3498.784,"text":"那這個還蠻會破壞它的構造跟它的功能所以它會造成這個退化性的神經症還有很重要就是失智症那我要談的科學是這樣子這個台灣婦產科醫學秘書長他也引用了這個環境流行病學查治2025年最新發表論文的論文"},{"start":3509.251,"end":3536.005,"text":"蘇格蘭在1936年出生 572位長者他為研究對象 他發現七八十歲罹患失智症可以溯及母體胎兒的時候跟他這個幼兒期的空氣污染的這個因素很重要當然對於他們往後一生他們曝露的這個量也是有關所以失智的風險是跟這個PM0.1是關聯這個是有科學報告的所以在這個情況下所以剛剛你也提到你有開始考慮要把"},{"start":3536.985,"end":3561.541,"text":"PM0.1那到未來把關全國的空氣品質的一個指標是這樣嗎是這個也包圍因為我們在跟那個全球的包圍歐洲或是美國的專家在討論的時候他對於方法學0.1的方法學跟2.5是不一樣的所以我們現在明年會先設三個站北中南會先設一個站我們來真的來量看看然後來定出我們的國家的目標再出來逐步來定出來"},{"start":3561.801,"end":3582.218,"text":"那個10月底國家氣候變遷這個對策委員會有表示未來要加鹽加鹽 交通燃油成分的標準來降低這個就是力狀污染物的這個問題那過去政府已經針對這個重型客車重型貨車還有輕型貨車大概已經就做了要求那請問部長你對於新車呢新車這個力狀污染物質的做法你有沒有打算也要納入裡面預計什麼時候會上路"},{"start":3584.519,"end":3612.218,"text":"其實這個部分還在研議當中我們希望明年可以來就是這個明年可以來討論這個事情那您剛剛已經談到因為要監測嘛你要照片就要監測那你剛剛說是全國先三個三個當然是很不夠的不過就是說那你既然已經開始了那就是希望說能夠繼續因為這個科學證據是蠻多的部長還有一件事我今天一定要講上週五晚上台南烏樹林海軍的營區因為台南市環保局堆放大量的災後廢棄物"},{"start":3613.118,"end":3621.547,"text":"起火燃燒了我都不知道到現在為止到底這個火熄滅了沒有坦白說我一點都不意外但是我對行政機關毫無警示性這個感到生氣為什麼會生氣呢在10月7號的時候當地的農民跟前立委這個陳焦華有一起我們一起召開記者會"},{"start":3629.555,"end":3649.209,"text":"當天要求環境部跟台南市環保局都要出席可是台南市環保局缺席了可是農民對於廢棄物的堆置可能引起燃燒的憂慮我當時有要求環境部轉達台南市環保局後來第二次我在10月28號又召開了一次協調會也再度對環境部示警"},{"start":3649.969,"end":3676.229,"text":"但沒有人在意啊結果呢就出現了上禮拜五的這個火災啊起火燃燒啊我真的覺得這個有些官員對立委的協調會召開會那個聽聽就好就是根本不當一回事那這兩次會議我都清楚的告訴環境部那邊真的不適合堆放大量的易燃物的廢棄物不知道你知道為什麼嗎這是農民告訴我的你知道為什麼嗎他那個地方不適合放這個大量的易燃的廢棄物對"},{"start":3679.099,"end":3695.039,"text":"因為是當地的居民告訴我的那些廢棄物木頭如果放得非常高 現在可能燒光了我不知道 很多次就燒光了跟我以前在談的那個防爆管器配件也是這樣它這個堆得很高 緊鄰圍牆所以外面的人很容易碰到它隨便丟一個煙蒂就燒起來了耶"},{"start":3697.802,"end":3723.539,"text":"所以這個政府機關我當時就告訴他們但他不聽也聽不進去那如果當地居民當然生氣啊當然會生氣啊所以我想請問部長一句話民間隨意焚燒廢棄物都會引起空污的話都會開罰那請問台南市環保局他這次這個臨時廢棄物的堆置場起火燃燒而且很嚴重聽說會燒很多天而且嚴重的空氣污染請問台南市環保局要不要對自己開罰"},{"start":3724.76,"end":3749.546,"text":"這件事要不要人負責 要不要人受到處罰我今天希望部長給我一個明確的答案這個開罰是他們要自己罰自己他會嗎 他會這樣做嗎 有人這樣做嗎他們應該會這樣做 然後那也包圍啊可是你是主管機關啊他們裁罰是屬於地方啦那我們會要求他們說盡量因為那天其實發生的時候我在國外我們的同仁有近視去處理 那我昨天"},{"start":3750.246,"end":3764.582,"text":"前兩天知道的情況下已經那個已經熄了但是還是有一些魚煙那也跟委員報告因為從7月開始喔那個台南的那個露宿倒塌了幾萬顆啦所以他們現在焚化爐的量還不夠對就是木頭嘛然後易燃物他們都會燒嘛"},{"start":3765.683,"end":3787.175,"text":"但是但是我也提示我10月7號跟10月18號三個週然後也不過在一個年他就就產生了已經告訴環境部環境部聽耳不聞啊 聰耳不聞啊我們請他回去去督促台南市環保局啊我等一下我最在意的是他們不聽啊這麼清楚的這個點啊他們沒有不聽根本不在意啊然後燃燒了所以你說他們會開罰自己嗎真的嗎我要看開罰單"},{"start":3788.155,"end":3804.271,"text":"台南市環保局會開罰自己嗎這個按照我們過去的經歷是有這樣的例子那誰負責 誰會負責他們要自己去那我要看到那個開罰單可以嗎這是市政府的一個層級啦環境部可以要得到 我像你要啊我不能看嗎我們明明就提出警示開了兩次我花時間開記者會協調會結果就讓它發生了"},{"start":3807.894,"end":3823.023,"text":"不過我也跟委員報告因為其實這個台南市的量能它焚化爐新的一個還在蓋明年可以起來部長你請別說這是理由本來行政官員就是要做我們就是要做監督而且提醒了還帶著當地居民提醒了結果事情還是讓它發生這麼清楚的時間序他們大概都有記錄因為他們到立法院來開會都有時間序"},{"start":3829.506,"end":3845.78,"text":"所以我要看到您開發你剛剛講說藍綠白一樣不管顏色誰犯誰犯規誰都要處罰你剛剛講得很清楚別的事情那這件事我什麼時候可以看到開發單已經都發生火災了還沒有人要追究責任嗎"},{"start":3846.3,"end":3873.009,"text":"是 包委員那個如果有造成空氣污染已經造成空氣污染啦現在就是那個移空法來看還是要看它發生的原因啦他們調查發生的原因之後不是 原因就燒起來啦他管的地區啊原因他們調查完之後部長這樣不行你現在給他糊弄我跟你說我真的我也很尊重你剛剛對很多資料的這個掌握清楚但是這件事該做就要做我要看到開罰單"},{"start":3874.309,"end":3877.033,"text":"可以嗎我們要知道政府做錯事要對人民負責民間做錯事要政府做事也要對人民負責也要有責任歸屬尤其我提醒了在10月提醒兩次因為我去看過那實在太大了"},{"start":3890.31,"end":3909.962,"text":"那個大到整個台南倒掉的樹放阿固 你怕人家都不講 現在發生火災你就要推不行啦其實那個兩三個月我們要看開罰單 謝謝部長我們要看開罰單罰自己 自己做錯誰負責部長 我要看到開罰單 可以嗎你答應我了嗎我來瞭解一下 看怎麼去處理我要看到開罰單 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 接下來請林月琴委員來做選擇"},{"start":3926.176,"end":3928.998,"text":"主席有請彭部長部長早上周宜蘭縣議會質詢縣府的時候指出近幾年環境稽查的次數砍半今年又突然激增"},{"start":3948.727,"end":3977.418,"text":"但平均罰還金額連年偏低醫院認為是縣府沒有認真查違規者根本罰不怕就敢亂盜才會讓環境蟑螂集團在宜蘭亂盜廢棄物我今天會在這裡問你是因為宜蘭的環保局回應媒體說主要是整體的執法模式是因中央的法令調整而改變還點名是空污法影響最大"},{"start":3978.158,"end":3986.444,"text":"你主責中央的環保的法令現在地方點名是中央修法造成請問部長你的回應是什麼好"},{"start":3994.01,"end":4016.469,"text":"他最主要是针对车辆的排气检验的部分因为空服法在修法的时候把原来使用中的三个字删除所以他的开法简单字上是法软偏低是因为你们的法规改变吗或是什么吗为什么他讲说是因为你空服法影响到他的论述可能有点问题所以你要不要澄清一下呢"},{"start":4017.304,"end":4043.489,"text":"好 我們來澄清因為它最主要是罰如果是你的那個沒有訂檢的話第一次就罰500元所以這個不需要所謂的稽查不用再去查它使用中因為它等於沒有被我們車牌辨識查到以後就直接罰500元對 所以我覺得你們要掌握評估不過地方政府裁罰的那個奏檢的時候和空法的法令調整之間的關聯是什麼"},{"start":4044.045,"end":4055.056,"text":"否則地方這樣講然後民眾也誤以為是這樣我覺得會有一些因為過去宜蘭從過去的陳定南現場就立下了環境治理的優良傳統先從議員的資料看"},{"start":4057.94,"end":4081.569,"text":"這牽扯廢棄物管理跟各種污染所以要請部長把情況弄清楚然後宜蘭是個案還是通案否則的話如果哪一個地方又這樣子講的話到底是什麼實際狀況如何所以再向我們辦公室來做說明再麻煩環境部這邊那部長我是一個長期關注社福跟兒少的立委所以這一年多來"},{"start":4082.293,"end":4111.325,"text":"只要環境部來為環委員會我幾乎都會再問社福族群跟兒少的環境跟氣候調適的議題從上一個會期一開始我就要求環境部用兒權公約來檢視你們的政策也要求在氣候調適的工作裡要從兒少跟社福的角度切入包括抗高溫的策略要多元的併進還要找更多部會來做合作才能對準兒少跟社福弱勢族群"},{"start":4113.165,"end":4134.652,"text":"更重要的是要有兒少實質的參與然後我也找到額蒙的資料請你們在辦法跟法規上參照並修正確保這些弱勢族群在氣候調適當中不會被遺漏的確我覺得部長大概你們也做了尤其事實上是兒少空屋的議題上你們也有給我明確的回應"},{"start":4135.572,"end":4159.933,"text":"那長者的這部分的獨居長者你們在台南也有事辦計畫這是好的可是說了這麼多上週氣候變遷署署長就是蔡玲署長面對民間團體到環境部去陳情兒少跟氣候調適的議題的時候只是說明說相關規劃跟思考必須因地制宜需要先跟部會盤點有哪些措施接下來再"},{"start":4160.914,"end":4170.354,"text":"找地方政府來談所以我想問 我問了一整年都已經到年底了而照的氣候調適措施還在盤點嗎"},{"start":4173.827,"end":4202.043,"text":"謝謝委員因為他當天談的是那個兒童的我的遊戲場那時候我在民間2016年就一直在琢磨著因為在美國ASTM他們在2011年就已經有一些標準在弄那台灣一直跟不上可是我的意思說那你們在跟部會還在盤點嗎團體跟民眾會不會覺得環境部對這一題完全狀況外好像是第一次聽到這個題目部長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":4203.884,"end":4224.639,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們已經在11月跟部會已經把就是高溫尤其是在健康議題那需要採取中程跟短期的措施先列出來那現在最主要的問題是在於說必須要有優先順序那所以我們署長這個大概不是只有健康權而已為什麼我今天這樣提"},{"start":4225.279,"end":4248.188,"text":"的確熱浪來潮的時候如果因為氣候對老人跟兒童就嬰兒是嚴重比較影響可是如果社福議題的話可能會牽扯到身障和安置機構弱勢家庭也就是貧窮家庭跟無家者這個都是我在質詢的時候都有提過的而且如果參照兒童權利公約為基礎的話"},{"start":4249.671,"end":4273.35,"text":"從社福到兒少族群的一些設定那一路我講到歐盟的做法都講了快一年了部長我想你很了解兒權公約跟26號意見書他在講的兒少的氣候權這一塊那我也想問說司署長都很熟嗎對兒權公約我說你們部內上次替官員辦兒權公約的賠利課程是什麼時候啊"},{"start":4277.754,"end":4299.338,"text":"因為各部會事上都要上課公務體系的人都要上課所有只要牽扯到有跟兒少有關係氣候權也是跟兒少有關係不知道有沒有上課我們有辦每年都會辦理然後是跟所有的人權都那包含主管嗎否則制定政策相關規劃的還是主管嗎"},{"start":4300.737,"end":4326.586,"text":"所以這是不是可以再麻煩能夠跟上 謝謝委員的建議這個我們會來做 事實上我們對於這個本來我們今年想要說年底有一個氣候變遷希望有一個兒少的這種氣候變遷大會來辦但是因為這個我們遇到災害很多啦所以就一直 我知道你們這陣子大家也很忙可是我就講了一年兒少的這些相關議題是不是可以放進去而且尤其是我關心的社福所以部長"},{"start":4327.606,"end":4349.556,"text":"Cops30就是30已經落幕了德國看守協會剛有報告指出台灣成績非常差部長回應是我國仍然有進步的空間我相信環境部一定會從各方面去做檢討也會說明這個報告中指數本身的限制我想等下很多委員會問可是我比較關心的是接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":4350.596,"end":4369.075,"text":"現行的國家氣候變遷調適行動方案112年到115年那明年就要結束了那照現在核定本的話國家氣候調適投入了數千億元計劃內兒少跟社福族群幾乎完全沒被看見"},{"start":4369.956,"end":4384.588,"text":"只在延伸紙計畫內而且只用健康權的角度帶過文字只出現在第一頁我剛剛講不是只有健康權後面沒有細緻的討論實際執行方案也就是每一年都會做的公財補助的無家者的"},{"start":4385.208,"end":4411.133,"text":"寒冬送暖部长从整体的人权观点来看儿少跟社福族群他们本来在这个气候变迁就会是一个弱势如果你只有从健康权够吗只剩下物资发放吗因为如果只有那个无家者的寒冬送暖那真的就只有物资发放他的生存权发展权跟参与权还有甚至游戏场的休闲游戏权"},{"start":4412.974,"end":4437.075,"text":"所以部長請你可不可以說明一下包委你這邊列的這個方案是衛福部那邊的那我們現在其實當然這個調試是環境部來主管的我們會其實我看到那個報告厚厚一本感覺錢很多但是他的整個計畫的目的跟國際上的調試以我的瞭解的確是跟國際上有落差所以我們其實真的我有跟我同仁在討論說如何把這個調試真的去"},{"start":4437.595,"end":4466.475,"text":"符合國際有沒有一個找一個好的一個做法能夠符合委員的期待來做但是目前這個所謂的兒少或是弱勢的部分的確我們我必須坦承說我們做的不多各個部會跨部會做的很不夠因為我覺得如果你說今天講衛福部國健所好了他們對健康可是重點是對於氣候的這一塊事實上還是掌握度比較高如果要對應說請衛福部去提出來一些東西他大概提不出來那甚至"},{"start":4466.895,"end":4477.841,"text":"今天我提的社福的安置機構甚至事實上是無家者甚至貧窮家庭他們越吹可能越熱越熱又要越吹的話事實上越貧窮這個課題之前都已經講過了所以"},{"start":4482.283,"end":4505.637,"text":"希望就是說部長這邊可能要先你出來你們自己對氣候的了解之後再去對應我們的衛福部所以我在民間的時候就一直講因為我剛剛講美國ASTM在2011年的時候就已經有對應的一些策略說那個遊戲場的高溫的一些對應策略那考量到今年夏天還有各種的天災你要救災優先"},{"start":4506.517,"end":4522.205,"text":"我沒有一直強求馬上要做可是現在看到是沒有上位的計畫的話各單位互踢皮球而是要跟社福族群的一些氣候調適發遊戲場在內因為我們現在燙傷的比例越來越高所以美國為什麼他們在"},{"start":4522.905,"end":4545.838,"text":"ASTM的準則裡邊事實上加裝了一些要件可是台灣現在這邊遊戲廠事實上是沒有跟上的所以如果你們只能一直在盤點的話我們就擔心新一期的行動方案一定要補這個結構性的缺口所以我要求環境部在新的方案當中是不是可以連結其他的部會用明確的章節把兒少跟社福族群"},{"start":4546.298,"end":4574.917,"text":"列為需要特殊對策的一個氣候脆弱族群重點是要有專款有清晰的分析行動計畫跟管考部長能不能做到委員這個其實我們有在討論這個事情包含了說我要說一個兒少的氣候變遷的會議就是把你說的要把它放進去那我也認同委員說是不是有一個專章來討論這個事情因為這個角度切法是不一樣的那我也覺得從未來從世代正義的角度委員你這樣的看法是對的我們可以"},{"start":4575.297,"end":4595.229,"text":"對 他們說環境就是他們的生命所以應該也要讓他們來參與也要把他們列入在你的所以想問116年期的新一期的行動方案是否已經啟動擬定如果已經啟動擬定的話預計的一個啟動跟完成時程那你們什麼時候可以給我把這些我剛剛講的兒少跟社福納進去規劃"},{"start":4597.57,"end":4620.324,"text":"報告委員 這明年我們就會來開始做明年115年就要準備116年的新的計畫所以明年我們就會嘗試一些兒少的相關的一個討論然後把這個宗旨這個利害關係的人都把它找到我相信部長你的行動力非常強希望要記得兒少跟社福 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員接下來請陳慶威委員來做懸答"},{"start":4633.531,"end":4656.222,"text":"謝謝主席我想請部長來請部長陳委員好部長好最近應該您也有看到因為我看到你有對新聞進行一些回應也就是我們現在被這個氣候變遷績效指標CPI評為非常低的一個等級不好意思幫我按一下下一張"},{"start":4657.577,"end":4671.023,"text":"那我們在這個排名是第59啦那我知道您對他有一些疑慮因為你對評分標準你可不可以簡短的講一下你認為他的評比為什麼對台灣不太公平"},{"start":4672.761,"end":4701.206,"text":"第一個是說它對於這個每個國家的人均的排碳比的目標台灣很嚴格所以我們其實它把我們跟韓國跟日本都打得特別低可是你看到像印度或是根本沒有在減碳的國家都在我們前面它的容許值就比較很高這第一個第二個是像這個如果要平這些東西你的排碳量一直持續的增加我們持續往下減可是在它的這個指標分數裡面完全表現不出來"},{"start":4702.046,"end":4727.835,"text":"最重要的是說因為我參加過國際這種評審他等於是把每一個人的成績單這不是考試喔是因為每一個人的考試是很單一的可是這個NDC是很複雜的如果可以很NDC排名排出來的話全世界無法排名的所以他把這個很定性的把它變成定量化其實這個都需要評審委員還有一個副審的機制因為我參與過國際的副審類似的工作我做過所以我認為他這樣做"},{"start":4729.355,"end":4737.001,"text":"他在臺灣只有找幾位NGO的人士來代表那我有點懷疑說他的副省的機制是不是那麼的完整報案下一張"},{"start":4738.397,"end":4762.678,"text":"當然之前我看2021年你們也曾經抗議過這件事但我覺得比較麻煩的是說很多國際組織所統計出來的報告對我們的評分其實我們的環境部從2021年然後至今像上次的這個IQ air等等公佈我們空污是全球第54名我們都會認為有爭議啦那我們認為有爭議也有我們的對於他的算法所不同的看法"},{"start":4764.219,"end":4789.813,"text":"那這邊的話我是想跟你具體的比較討論因為我看了整份環境部的報告那我發現說環境部的報告一直糾結在他的評分標準啊然後他的排名啊但是你卻沒有跟我們全國人民分析說其實他的報告後面有一整段的英文的建議所以我今天主要是想跟你討論一一的討論他英文的建議還有環境部在其中扮演的角色下一張"},{"start":4791.667,"end":4794.89,"text":"好我們看他一開始就在講說你剛提到的碳排我們從2005一直到2024其實是下降9.6%這也是你剛講的數據可是在CCPI他的認定10%是他的弱減量所以我們對於弱減量的目標都可能沒有辦法達成的話你有沒有什麼具體覺得你可以改進的地方"},{"start":4816.26,"end":4840.436,"text":"包委這個他們的建議也是國內的那三位的環團的專家寫提出的建議並不是CCPI他整體的建議這個就是他的問題他不是一個國際的專家一個統整的那個內容而是說每個在地的NGO被他那個國家自己打了一個分數這個就是他最大的問題但他裡面也有四個國際組織一起在評分其中也不乏你一直滿想加入的一些國際組織嘛"},{"start":4842.584,"end":4849.671,"text":"對所以你覺得這樣子9.6你很滿意了當然他的算法9.6要不要請我們署長來說明一下"},{"start":4851.195,"end":4874.861,"text":"跟委員報告他其實他的評比裡面他的數據的部分的話他的溫室氣體排放量他不是以我們的下降的趨勢他是設計的每一個國家他自己設了一個人均的排放量來作為評對他把我們台灣設成說我們到2030年的人均是2.26但是英國他又把他設成是4點多所以是"},{"start":4876.101,"end":4893.217,"text":"就是我們在跟CCPI在討論它不合理的地方你們有做一些回文嗎你們有做一些回覆嗎給CCPI嗎在過去幾年已經每一年你們都有回覆它好那我們下一張再來他這個也是給我們一個建議啦他的意思是說"},{"start":4894.218,"end":4922.177,"text":"我們由燃煤大幅的擴張LNG那他認為說我們在持續擴張LNG的使用削弱了整體的氣候的野心那他也說我們的政府是把天然氣包裝為乾淨的過度的燃料這個敘事具有誤導性所以在現行的政策中他認為我們是缺乏法律明定燃煤退場的時程也缺乏明確的化石燃料的減量的策略"},{"start":4924.358,"end":4951.303,"text":"可能沒有辦法具體的去參與這件事但是你有沒有考慮跟經濟部還有國發會一同來討論包委員這個German Watch它就是一個不大的NGO因為我十幾年前就有去跟他們argue他們評比每年都很奇怪我當面都有指責過你去上網查我以前有問他過例如說有一年英國全部啟動核能他把它變成第一名那我說是不是核能的因素我就直接問他他也答得很奇怪"},{"start":4951.604,"end":4960.424,"text":"那你覺得他給我們的建議是對的嗎因為他覺得我們沒有明定燃煤的退場時程這不是他的建議也缺乏化石的燃料減量的策略"},{"start":4961.082,"end":4980.83,"text":"他是針對他是這個那是三位本地的專家給的建議啦那基本上國際上對於這個LNG他的確還是一個過渡型的他相對的排汰量比較低然後他的這個比較乾淨一點點所以其實還是屬於一個過渡型的這個這個點是沒有錯但是他有他的看法可是他的意思是說我們沒有時程"},{"start":4981.67,"end":5003.555,"text":"我們沒有實成 具體的實成我們有實成我們到2030 2035甚至2050年那個能源配比都有一個目標所以你也沒有覺得他這樣子說我們過度包裝成乾淨的過度燃料你也覺得他這件事情講的不對其實他這個就是個人說的這個是expert某些專家說的就是國內那三位專家說的"},{"start":5004.383,"end":5022.804,"text":"好那我們下一張下一張的話前面你可能也必須要跟交通部去做一些溝通跟協調當然他對於我們全面的電動化運具公車啊汽機車等等好建物的碳中和執行的進度嚴重的落後並且除了主要都市以外呢公共運輸仍不發達這一點"},{"start":5025.347,"end":5052.942,"text":"我知道你也很努力你也很努力可是交通部也必須要跟上你的腳步那再來他就提到再生能源了他說再生能源很嚴重的是緩慢而且前後不一致我們本來2025年希望可以達到25%到目前只有達到15%他講出來他也我覺得他對我們的政府也有蠻深入的了解他覺得台灣其實舊根本是電網的基礎老舊整合能力不足所以限制了再生能源的發展再來土地的使用爭議還有生態衝擊"},{"start":5055.043,"end":5068.556,"text":"以及這些種種的貪瀆醜聞使得公共信任不足還有一些綠能廠商他退出台灣的時候也對國際媒體做一些投書這些他們都有去看所以這點你認為我們有改進的空間嗎這當然有改進的空間"},{"start":5071.418,"end":5087.093,"text":"過去我們的對於太陽光電不管是地方在蓋章的時候太多人可以蓋要蓋三十幾個章所以也給很多人上下其所的機會所以也造成一些弊案我們也看到了所以這個行政院也積極在處理這個事情那當然啦過去的光電的這個爭議或是風電的這個評估"},{"start":5090.616,"end":5116.263,"text":"這個大家都過去都有討論那我們也同意那我認為這個時候是一個重新建立一個信心的方式我們還是需要綠電因為這次的這個協定裡面還是呼應COVID-28的這個再生能源還是要成長的好那以上我總結因為你可能需要找國發會經濟部交通部內政部去做一個協調跟整合你認為你有辦法在三個月內做這件事情還是你覺得我們需要一起跟行政院院長做討論"},{"start":5118.344,"end":5136.183,"text":"報告委員你是針對CCPI給我們的建議我認為CCPI給我們的建議我們就看一看參考而已我們有自己的NDC的路徑聽到現在我覺得你對於他的再生能源你是願意採納的其他的你認為其實他的評比方法有失公允"},{"start":5137.205,"end":5150.886,"text":"有些他是我必须说就是有时候做事情的人跟倡议的人这是不一样的层次那我会参考他我们哪里做的不够会去看他但是他的是不是都对的有待讨论下一张"},{"start":5152.239,"end":5170.394,"text":"上個禮拜立法院有三讀通過嘛關於這個光電板環評地質法還有環評法觀光條例等等的那當然我們會這樣做是因為B案爆發的速度趕不上環境部修訂執法的速度啦那針對比如說山坡地"},{"start":5171.415,"end":5190.425,"text":"之前覺得太寬鬆或者是以前比較模糊地帶的水面型光電以及這個地質敏感區國家風景區等等一併納入環評的範圍所以我想先請教部長你對於整體修法的看法簡短說就可以了我是認可說能夠加嚴但是我比較遺憾的是說這個數字並沒有經過科學的討論或是公眾的參與決定這個多少MW要環評"},{"start":5196.721,"end":5212.767,"text":"好 那第二個問題 下一張第二個問題當然也是會有人民會有點擔心行政院跟環境部會不會對這次立法院的修法提出復議因為你剛有講你剛有講一些理由所以你覺得你會不會對這次的修法提出復議"},{"start":5214.08,"end":5235.456,"text":"這個部分我還要尊重行政院的最後的決定但是我覺得很可惜的是說因為黃國昌委員提那個案子的時候在大院質詢我的時候他覺得那個量可以來討論可是我們的所有的執法在規劃的空間的時候原來那個都在執法訂的那個執法其實可以有公聽的機會各界都可以來參與現在只有一方的能夠決定就決定了所以沒有公眾的參與"},{"start":5235.816,"end":5252.911,"text":"我剛剛大概有跟你講了一下因為這個執法從你們說要修一直到修修修修修拖了其實蠻久的然後你們沒有給出一個明確的時間那現在有一些人可能民團他也是出來講話他會怕說這個環評會塞車所以我也想在這邊幫他們問我想要在這邊幫他們問我想問你過去一年大概有幾個廣點的環評案你們有審你現在手上有數據嗎"},{"start":5262.66,"end":5286.059,"text":"光天有退回去幾個 但是也跟委員報告大概一年省幾個 這個是我們想知道的數據有些一定的量 因為之前是只有針對山坡地我們去年今年1月修改的那個之前是適用於別的主管 木地事業局管理局的規定例如說農業部還有水保署等等的相關的一個規定所以它都有它的一個規定不是不見得每一個都要送到環評"},{"start":5287.02,"end":5298.84,"text":"他不是說沒有環評我的意思是說你的量能因為有些人會怕你們的量能不足對於未來的環評量能不足所以想知道你過去大概一年是幾個案子未來會不會"},{"start":5300.373,"end":5322.406,"text":"目前只有三個啦但是未來如果按照委員這樣的話我們也擔心我們的同仁會爆糧因為三個大家對比看一些光電閉暗的新聞當然會覺得你一年才還平三個似乎也是顯得比較少嘛所以當然我們這邊是積極要幫你爭取喔我們是希望你未來就增加你的量能增加你的人手增加你的預算我們也希望你好好去做還平嘛"},{"start":5323.306,"end":5338.683,"text":"另外在政黨協商的時候次長曾經有說到說這個地質敏感脆弱區等等名詞沒有明確的定義這邊我也想請部長來說明一下針對次長的這個疑慮你覺得有沒有辦法利用韓式來做一個解決"},{"start":5341.651,"end":5349.979,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個地質敏感地區最後在立法院三讀的再修正的動議裡面其實已經有做一個比較明確的一個定義了因為本來是比較不明確那之後後來通過的這個法案裡面他其實是有很明確的依照地質法的規定是只有限定在地質遺跡地質敏感區跟山崩地滑的地質敏感區"},{"start":5364.912,"end":5379.553,"text":"所以這個應該在執行上就比較沒有問題因為我看到其他的部門農業部海委會他們也一樣也都可以針對地質敏感區有一些定義部長我看你咳嗽所以最後一個只要很簡短的回答我們就好了"},{"start":5380.554,"end":5409.634,"text":"這個母法呢因為技術問題所以我們那一天並沒有把這個國家公園列入可是接下來因為你們會依照三讀的結果來修執法可是執法你們原本裡面有這個國家公園的條款所以也有很多環團擔心法律真空的議題比如說你們在連帶修執法的時候會把國家公園相關的條款就誤刪了那變成三不管地帶可能會是個巨大的災難這點我也想請部長講一下有沒有可能會有這樣子的事情發生"},{"start":5410.575,"end":5430.735,"text":"不會啦 這個國家公園任何一個開發是嚴到不行的所以這個他們想太多了啦這個實質上實務不是這個樣子的對 所以它之後還會保留在你們的紙紡當中這個本來就在我們裡面都會有啦但是我們也跟委員報告因為那個討論這個到底光電環評等於是多少的量要多少我們現在變成全世界最嚴格的"},{"start":5431.693,"end":5449.232,"text":"其實我們是給你一個權利讓你去管轄因為之前你的權利偏少你這一整年來奔波你想想有多少都是因為環境的議題好 那我也希望我們未來可以合作祝你早日康復謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請王韻明委員發言"},{"start":5460.132,"end":5463.114,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長保重謝謝今天我要請教的是越世界這個怎麼變成垃圾山的這個議題我看到這一家這個祐宏公司事實上他是有合法去登記在案的一個公司"},{"start":5484.913,"end":5509.945,"text":"但是我看到整個過程他是不是用合法來掩護他的非法這個我覺得是環境部你們要非常注意的因為我去調出來之前這個地方政府裁罰他的紀錄事實上他過去違法的紀錄蠻多的甚至他有一塊空地他都在堆置這一些失業廢棄物或者是生活垃圾等等"},{"start":5510.865,"end":5533.243,"text":"但是這樣子的一個違法堆置其實地方政府通通都用42條來裁罰所以42條罰得很輕就是都不到三萬然後去上個課兩個小時為什麼違法堆置不是用比較重的這個廢清法46條而是用比較輕的42條"},{"start":5535.365,"end":5543.857,"text":"這是不是因為覺得他已經有合法登記了所以就重新處理這個事情你們有沒有去深入去探究"},{"start":5545.53,"end":5571.262,"text":"因為他是46條的第3款跟第10款的刑責其實他的你看他這個罰的這個費用都是十幾萬有幾萬到幾萬並不是只有6000塊啦所以其實是的確是他們都引用42條你回去看地方政府高雄市政府他罰的都是42條他沒有引用46條那之前的是用36條啦所以是6000到300萬不是不是之前這個"},{"start":5572.663,"end":5597.012,"text":"可能部長今天身體微恙我要跟你講那個要不要署長來回答他整個你自己去調出來你們到目前為止都沒有調出來我已經調出來他的整個裁罰紀錄裁罰紀錄裡面都是引用42條所以我就很納悶違法堆置這很多的那個理由都是違法堆置那違法堆置為什麼是引用42條呢署長你說那個"},{"start":5603.543,"end":5628.708,"text":"這裡我們的法案對於事業廢棄物會有6000到300萬他會依照他的程度那各個案不一樣所以有不一樣的裁判不過現在發生的這一案是引用46條而且移送檢調偵辦我知道啊 那之前的我要告訴你之前他已經多次違反而且非法堆置非法堆置為什麼是42條你要告訴我"},{"start":5629.688,"end":5652.055,"text":"是地方政府引用錯誤還是故意去用比較新的條文42條這個署長你要解釋啊保保委員應該是不會說引用錯誤啦他還是會經過那個因為他要用條文的時候在縣市政府裡面都會有類似而且他已經是多次違反了為什麼都是一直用42條"},{"start":5653.155,"end":5679.573,"text":"他會依照他堆置的量或地點犯罪的這個我覺得高雄市政府其實就是重新來處理嘛我不知道他為什麼要重新處理照道理來講他不是第一次喔他是多次已經是個累犯結果你在懲罰上面如果不是今天爆發出這個完全已經揭露在媒體把越世界變垃圾山這麼嚴重的情況"},{"start":5681.514,"end":5703.924,"text":"還要繼續縱放他嗎 繼續輕放嗎繼續用這種微不足道的來上課兩個小時然後懲罰都沒有超過五萬塊這個是不痛不癢啊所以我要求這個環境部你們要去督導地方政府啊就是說你到底你是怎麼在管理的我現在很擔心是以幼紅這一個案例來講"},{"start":5704.864,"end":5733.189,"text":"他就是去申請一個有啊他有登記啊他有登記在案啊他有一個牌照但是私底下又偷偷摸摸去勾結台南當地的這一些然後還我覺得最離譜的是把台南的家戶的垃圾也都敢這樣子運到這個越世界然後直接大量的十幾趟欸十幾趟的這個垃圾車就這樣子違法侵盜這個真的是無法無天啊所以我覺得你們應該要好好去督導啊"},{"start":5734.009,"end":5754.474,"text":"地方政府怎麼是這樣子在管理的呢如果說他是出犯 那沒有話講不是啊 你們自己去調出來看啊很多次了 非常多次了結果竟然是引用42條我覺得這個大有問題啊 好好去查一查吧另外一個我們來看一下"},{"start":5756.291,"end":5782.497,"text":"我們說中央要這個電子圍籬這個上次我也問過但是這一次你看他的手法他們自己一輛自駕車然後還可以去顧那個路口然後就可以這樣子違法的十幾趟的把這個垃圾堆到四五層樓高我們的公權力沒有辦法發現那我們的智慧圍籬射到哪裡去了"},{"start":5783.377,"end":5805.342,"text":"完全沒有辦法監控而且他們更大膽的是他可以跨縣市的犯案怎麼可以從台南然後運到高雄去我們的政府通通都不知道他不是偷運了一趟是高達十幾趟結果我們的智慧圍籬完全沒有效果這要怎麼改善我上次其實就問過你們說可以沒有問題沒有問題這個就有問題馬上就爆發出來了"},{"start":5812.881,"end":5815.245,"text":"這個情況我們未來還要編列23億5298萬1千元繼續要加裝這個智慧為理"},{"start":5822.859,"end":5843.461,"text":"如果連這一個都抓不到那以後我們裝的那個真的有辦法去達到阻嚇這一些非法的業者然後這樣子胡亂破壞我們的環境 青稻垃圾的問題嗎保委員 現在就是因為我們自衛委理是從明年度預算開始執行所以是說現在做的不夠"},{"start":5844.582,"end":5858.867,"text":"現在我們其實裝的數量相當的少不過效果很好就是說在一些重點那你高雄現在有裝嗎高雄有裝幾隻啦我們全國其實那他現在辦案的這個地方你們有裝嗎沒有那個數量實在太少"},{"start":5861.508,"end":5877.488,"text":"所以我們剛才委員講的23億那個部分是全國會有2000點那目前大概都是十幾點而已我們在重點繼續裝而已所以我們期待我們大院能夠支持這次的維理計畫我想會改善相當的多以上"},{"start":5878.479,"end":5905.08,"text":"我覺得這個真的是太誇張了這個業者他根本就是公然在挑戰我們的公權力發生這種事情這個如果上了國際媒體對台灣的形象傷害真的很大可以把一個觀光景點變成垃圾山感覺我們好像是無政府狀態所以這件事情中央跟地方都有督導不周的責任特別是地方政府怎麼可以長期縱容這樣子的一個"},{"start":5906.121,"end":5930.387,"text":"他號稱是合法的環保業者還是當地的里長然後渾然不知讓他可以在這邊大肆的破壞高雄的這個地貿環境這個真的是這個部長你今天身體不舒服你不用講很多話但是我希望你要知道這個是中央你對於地方政府如果有這樣的一個情況我也很擔心不是只有一例"},{"start":5931.147,"end":5956.857,"text":"你知道嗎從一個個案裡面我剛一再強調的有沒有人用合法來掩護非法這樣的一個問題我覺得是你們要有很高的敏感度那我覺得這次地方政府對於長期這樣的現象的漠視他甚至不敢去重罰我覺得這個都要看到啊地方是不是盤根錯節這樣的關係該展現公權力的時候完全沒有大肆的去整頓"},{"start":5957.717,"end":5975.843,"text":"我覺得這個是你作為中央主管機關作為部長你要好好去整頓好不好那最後一個我要講的是那個CCPR2026指標我剛好聽到你在回覆這個委員當然你會覺得說他們的績效這個不公平但是我要提醒部長"},{"start":5976.903,"end":5994.713,"text":"事實上在2020年的時候你自己也承認了人均碳排太高你當時不是部長的時候你也承認了那你現在作為部長你更有責任要來改善這樣的一個情況所以與其去批評人家的國際指標說哎呀他不公平"},{"start":5995.553,"end":6011.021,"text":"畢竟人家也是做了17年了怎麼樣的不公平他們持續性的對於63個國家去做這樣子的一個評估我們還是要敬佩人家這樣的一個精神不是只有說我們成績不好就說人家不公平"},{"start":6011.701,"end":6033.039,"text":"基本上台灣的表現 這幾年都不好都在倒數五名啊 不是倒數第五名就是倒數第四名 都在這邊徘徊而已所以它其實 這樣的一個指標還是有意義的它在提醒我們台灣 我們追求經濟發展的同時事實上我們減碳的速度 的確是不夠快的我們連台中火力發電廠燃煤機組要讓它關掉"},{"start":6036.922,"end":6058.162,"text":"這個連中央政府都有意見如果是這樣子的情況我們火力排放的比例佔的這麼高人家說我們溫室氣體排放表現是差的我們減排10%達不到我覺得它不是完全無所本這個真的是我們自己要好好思考的我們的能源政策就出了很大的問題"},{"start":6059.443,"end":6076.477,"text":"就是如果我們要一昧的我們根本做不到但我們高喊非核家園然後那個核能完全不用坦白講我們台灣能用的就很有限再生能源的發展坦白講也很有限我們地小人稠"},{"start":6077.418,"end":6091.806,"text":"所以我們不可能我們不是美國也不是中國大陸我們沒有大量的土地面積我們也沒有豐沛的水利資源所以再生能源本身我們就會受到一定的限制這個是我們要從能源政策好好的去盤點嘛"},{"start":6093.007,"end":6112.436,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得與其去挑戰說人家國際17年的評比指標說有一些不公平我們更需要做的其實是反省我們自己我們真的減碳的速度不夠快雖然有改善但是跟人家國際很多國家比較起來我們人均碳排真的就是高這個是你2020講過的"},{"start":6113.837,"end":6128.225,"text":"這也是事實啊你當時講的這句話我覺得很好啊這是事實啊務實的面對我覺得比較重要了所以我想這個部長你現在有權利就是如何檢探就是整個政府特別是"},{"start":6129.065,"end":6151.974,"text":"我覺得我們真的沒有不用核能的條件所以最近經濟部看起來好像有點醒了就是核三想要再研議了我覺得這是好的方向是晚了一點但是我們就承認在我們的天然能源結構條件不足的情況底下如果要減碳必須啟用部分的核能我覺得這是沒有辦法迴避的議題所以我希望這一題"},{"start":6153.114,"end":6166.318,"text":"這個部長 這個你現在有權利好好的把檢探工作做好 好不好好 謝謝委員好 祝你早日康復 謝謝接下來請邱政軍委員發言主席好 要請彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":6181.283,"end":6210.12,"text":"委員好 部長還好啦就坐四十幾個小時飛機啦可能被傳染 有點感冒質詢沒問題吧沒有問題沒有問題 備詢沒問題啦那我請問一下這個部長剛剛還是一樣就是CCPI的問題那排名 台灣排名是59名屬於全球性這個非常差的等級啦那這是評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放營能源結構"},{"start":6211.241,"end":6224.898,"text":"那前两年那两年我们的核能还在运转再生能源也比前一年多一点也就是说就算有核电撑着再生能源勉强前进一点点我们依然只有59名"},{"start":6226.584,"end":6255.143,"text":"部長沒錯吧對 沒錯對啊 我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠這個石化燃料主要跟燃氣跟燃煤那到現在是現在有時候是火力全開火力發電全開那CCPI給台灣的評分理由很清楚天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源那能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進這個減排速度太慢再生能源進度落後"},{"start":6256.284,"end":6280.224,"text":"風電延宕那2025年核電正式退出火力必須補上那包含燃氣燃煤通通要往上拉這是你們政府的能源你們現在的能源規劃那部長我現在請問你一句非常簡單的問題那有核電的時候我們都是排到59名那明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下你認為CCPI的排名會進步嗎還是會退步"},{"start":6281.545,"end":6307.6,"text":"包委員因為CCPI它的評比有定向又有定性也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起所以基本上它的這個分數評比明智怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議那另外一個是你們是 你當然啦你是認為說它用人均排放不合理嘛對不對因為委員你講到核能像韓國它排在我們後面它的核能也佔了快要20%那我再問你那我現在意思就是說我們在未來這個部分有機會上升嗎"},{"start":6309.26,"end":6335.362,"text":"你有信心嗎我認為委員這個它並不是一個我說我等於是有人願意做這個評比我們都歡迎但是它如果是一個很有規模很有公信力它評比很正常的機構因為我只看到你在質疑就是說它用人均這個人均排放來評比不太公平那其他的你們表示說你們是默認還是怎麼樣"},{"start":6336.768,"end":6351.498,"text":"基本上這個就是一個NGO提出一些建議一些報告而已因為台灣把燃氣包裝成這個潔淨橋樑的燃料把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源這是誤導性的做法嘛等於是直接打臉我們政府民進黨政府的能源政策"},{"start":6352.158,"end":6368.215,"text":"報告委員因為他有些專家會這樣認為但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量還有它的污染的確都比較低所以我們現在選擇的就是說講我們好的那種專家我們才是比較認為他是專家那這種的專家就不是專家了"},{"start":6369.286,"end":6395.479,"text":"就是不一樣的看法嘛但是整個國際上 對 所以我們要聽誰的像我舉例 例如說新加坡沒有在裡面新加坡的這個燃氣大概占了95%所以基本上因為每個國家的地理條件因為全球暖化問題當然不會只有看這個碳排大國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%因為甲烷的洩漏就比藍莓更髒 更暖化那甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍"},{"start":6397.06,"end":6415.561,"text":"那液化天然氣從開採壓縮液化運輸再到氣化每一段都會洩漏所以不管是IPCC這個1.5C的模型全球這個檢排路徑全部都把甲烷算進去風險這部分你們可能不知道"},{"start":6416.722,"end":6438.52,"text":"那个甲烷我们是我们台湾不是甲烷的出口这个进口我们是使用国那开采造成的碳排是属于那个国家但是有需求就有开采他自己就要算算在他自己的那我们是算说这个甲烷它本身的排量量多少所以他这样的这个说法有一点跟实际上的减碳的这个算法是不大一样的"},{"start":6438.76,"end":6464.572,"text":"那我再問一下就是說在這個淨零碳排的議題上我們環境部應該是要主導的怎麼感覺我們都是配合經濟部沒有 我們其實這個都是整個減碳的報告是經濟部是負責能源的部分那我們是負責整個匯整各個部會因為這個部分會不會影響環境我覺得你們要更清楚一點這是你們的業務不要被經濟部牽著走不要被經濟部牽著走"},{"start":6466.884,"end":6486.01,"text":"沒有 這個我們都是彼此在公平公正的在討論這個事情那風電因為光風電帶給我們人的影響之間我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少這個機會提升那我們未來有沒有能力降低這個燃氣的發電量還是只能往上衝"},{"start":6486.853,"end":6511.881,"text":"基本上燃氣現在規劃到2030 2035大概都不會超過50都40幾%那希望再生能源能夠順利能夠拉起來所以我們的確在國家的NDC3.0裡面就有制定一些能源的一個結構所以其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右那消燃煤可以降到大概20%以上部長你在看 你在注意這個議題啦好不好不要被又被排到最後一名去了"},{"start":6512.541,"end":6526.952,"text":"不會 這個我再請教一下光除暗場要不要做環評光除暗場目前是應該是不用吧因為它是屬於在這個一些的設施的下面"},{"start":6528.048,"end":6556.867,"text":"不一定喔 有些是在社區旁邊跟委員報告 目前我們的還品相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施去要求說要辦理還品因為儲能設施因為我看到就是說很多地方都在反對啦我都在反對這個問題也不是說今天才發生的一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續看到民眾在抗爭那有些抗爭強一點的他就停下來了沒有抗爭的就繼續做所以我覺得這個部分你們有沒有想過要有一個規範"},{"start":6558.769,"end":6575.458,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前有收到有一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮那在我們修訂環評的認定標準的時候我們可以一起來把它做一個討論然後再看是不是把它納入我們的現在規定因為居民不了解我不敢說他一定會影響旁邊但是"},{"start":6576.138,"end":6591.632,"text":"我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來讓業者或者民眾也比較懂這個要不然他隨時要設那民眾就恐慌而且他沒有經過環評也沒有說明會沒有說明沒有經過環評就沒有說明會沒有說明會這個老百姓就會"},{"start":6595.543,"end":6613.631,"text":"就會不懂不懂的話如果有人講什麼他們當然就會擔心因為這個部分因為離電池在旁邊第一會不會造成身體的影響第二會不會造成這個有風險就是萬一失火萬一失火這個我們消防的設施的規範是怎麼樣這些都是要納入考量的"},{"start":6615.602,"end":6642.07,"text":"這個我們會來討論那其實委員這個有一些再生能源或是新型態的或許是需要大家多一點瞭解不是說每一個都對我有害不然的話我們現在電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑那是不是會有害所以基本上這個社會的溝通認知這個不一樣 車子當然你汽油也會爆炸你不能這樣講 對不對所以你不能把這個鋰電池把它裝成這個跟儲能廠我這是兩件事"},{"start":6643.19,"end":6657.737,"text":"這是兩件事情不要把它混為一堂問題這個是固定的如果它有危險它是固定的在我住的旁邊是長期在那裡的車子我有開才有上路才會有比較危險對不對 你不能這樣比較對不對"},{"start":6660.185,"end":6687.298,"text":"然後我們是希望你們把這個東西規範寫出來讓業者也好讓我們的老百姓也好都能夠比較清楚那最後一個就是說光電三法三讀後我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發增加成本所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場這個光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見那你們之前態度也一直"},{"start":6688.078,"end":6703.881,"text":"不是要寫死要先觀察慢慢研議那現在已經我們國民黨民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面你們反而不用去當壞人照理講環境部應該鬆一口氣那現在越來越反彈環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":6704.523,"end":6727.242,"text":"包委員 這個其實我們都有規劃在我們的執法裡面要訂而且我們的執法如果一公告然後就要來做公聽本來就是這兩個月要做的事情那我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我說他要修改的時候他說那個數額可以來討論可是我覺得這一次修改因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外不好意思沒有參與到但是我是認為是在這個到底多少的量"},{"start":6728.102,"end":6746.79,"text":"要環評的部分的話沒有經過一個科學的討論就直接表決就過了我覺得這是我比較遺憾的地方那個可以討論那你會當這個環境永續的守門人嗎我們當然是守門人啊你不要遇到壓力等下要開後門給人家走了我不會因為那個法已經在母法在那邊我們要"},{"start":6747.61,"end":6772.269,"text":"環境部要改也是很困難我們也只能遵照大院的一個指示但是守護環境能夠不要破壞環境的一個情況下讓公眾能夠多了解什麼是環評然後多少要環評 衝擊是什麼這個也是很重要的好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請王振旭委員來做詢問"},{"start":6774.807,"end":6784.626,"text":"那王委員宣導結束之後我們就休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席那還是要麻煩彭部長部長"},{"start":6788.701,"end":6808.591,"text":"王委員好部長辛苦 飛了40個小時再回到臺灣而且在這段時間參加那麼多的會議除了COP30以外還跑去巴拉圭進行一趟非常成功的一個兩國之間相關的一些協議跟討論很多重要的事情"},{"start":6809.031,"end":6835.82,"text":"非常感謝部長的辛勞我們也瞭解像今天在部長的報告裡面針對於這個非洲豬瘟的防疫工作所做的努力也看到有良好的成果不過我想還是有兩個部分再跟部長做請教一個就是出於化的這些政策完整規劃目前的進度跟未來的走向另外就是如果精進環評制度之下的具體策略"},{"start":6837,"end":6863.632,"text":"那有關於廚餘巨化政策完整的規劃的部分我們知道其實廚餘如何減量跟如何再利用就是未來一定會走的方向那在這一次的這個非洲豬瘟相關的應變作為裡面呢如何能夠讓這個源頭減量跟高質化的利用的具體目標跟配套的措施的確我們也看到很多"},{"start":6864.992,"end":6891.028,"text":"在我書面報告裡面有在講到目前的這個禁用期間各縣市的除了維持既有的處理的處理方式以外那必要的時候就變成需要焚化跟掩埋的方式來做輔助處理目前看起來好像是主要是從這個部分在做相關的因應那如果將來處於禁養政策變成是長期的方向的話呢"},{"start":6891.528,"end":6914.523,"text":"那如何能夠去把這個每天多出來495噸的這些廚藝能夠做有效的處置這個是未來大家非常關心的部分那不知道到目前為止剛剛部長提到說最近會再跟行政院各個部會來做相關的檢討那有沒有比較可以再說明的地方"},{"start":6915.143,"end":6929.597,"text":"報告委員因為我們也統計了各個縣市他對於這個的態度那也呈現了很不一樣的結果例如說有的縣市認為是全面禁用廚餘但是他的廚餘的怎麼去處理他沒有特別去關注"},{"start":6930.197,"end":6948.528,"text":"那有些縣市呢其實是希望有珍珠場共同珍珠場那有些縣市呢可以說是有條件的例如說可不可以讓他把這個生殖能的或是堆肥的部分能夠啟動之後再來花一年或一年半時間把它禁掉所以目前呢我們一個縣市一個縣市在溝通因為這些縣市都是地方政府"},{"start":6949.048,"end":6972.403,"text":"要來積極處理這個事情的但是我們中央也必須要有政策所以我們預計呢希望是這個禮拜能夠跨部會還有跟地方政府完全協商之後會正式提出一個政策出來是那記得上一次跟部長在我們這個委員會討論的時候如何把線性經濟轉變成為循環經濟這個是部長一直在提倡的觀念那也希望我們能夠往這個方向來執行"},{"start":6973.744,"end":6995.13,"text":"我們可以看一下其實日本他們這20年來真的非常用心的如何讓廚餘相關的這些政策能夠得到很好的改善尤其他們是希望能夠控制不管是非洲豬瘟或者是狂牛症帶來的這種影響川島教授他其實今年在聯合國農糧組織裡面"},{"start":6996.73,"end":7015.448,"text":"有報告了日本他們努力的方向從這個原來大量生產大量消費跟大量處置的單向社會裡面轉向我們所期待的循環型的社會那這部分他們為了要做這些事情制定了相當多的法"},{"start":7016.91,"end":7039.903,"text":"法規包括建立循環型的社會基本法這是在2000年他們就已經制定好後來又陸續制定了廢棄物的處理跟公共清潔法還有食品資源的回收等等那從他們的法令規定裡面就直接要求第一步最重要的就是要做這個抑制食品的廢棄就是發生廢棄"},{"start":7041.684,"end":7068.303,"text":"那其次呢才去做相關的這個廚餘尤其是在生廚餘的部分呢在還沒有到進到餐桌之前要去讓它有機會變成飼料化或肥料化這個是他們在做的一個模式展現出減量再利用跟安全三軸並行的方案在執行目前日本有關於這個廚餘減量或者是再利用的部分"},{"start":7068.863,"end":7089.904,"text":"那這部分也剛好上個禮拜部長有提到我也參加了相關的這個行程跟農業部還有環境部的同仁一起去了解他們日本目前執行的狀況如何能夠讓這個大家共同的來努力把這個發生的意志就是減量的部分可以確定的來執行"},{"start":7091.105,"end":7110.9,"text":"他們在因應這個過程裡面就發明也發揮了他們的創意提出一個叫EcoFit這樣的環保飼料的名詞讓大家都能夠知道因為透過EcoFit就可以讓廚餘得到很好的一個再利用的方式"},{"start":7111.56,"end":7138.805,"text":"他們這個再利用同時可以減少在日本準備相關的飼料防小育的這些成本事實上就可以適度的降低所以未來在規劃的部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是針對於日本的這樣的做法可以提供給國人做參考或者是未來在制定政策的方向可以給大家一些更多的了解"},{"start":7139.987,"end":7167.906,"text":"對 謝謝委員的建議因為日本的這個概念非常好因為我們上禮拜我們有同仁也跟著委員去看去日本看了那基本上呢跟我之前收集到的資料也都一樣例如說家戶的廚餘或是小吃的廚餘因為裡面的很複雜就不要進到這個養豬的這個內容裡面那其他的部分如果是餐廳或是說一些比較好的這個事業處理的造成的這個食品的廢棄物的話他就可以或許就可以照日本的這樣在走"},{"start":7168.366,"end":7196.62,"text":"所以目前日本我們跟農業部因為這個部分是農業部在主政我們跟農業部一起來配合來協助所以目前的確日本的廚餘的處理方法是我們的選項的重要參考指標之一其實上個禮拜我們去桃園考察桃園的生殖能中心也有相關非常好的一些技術可以把廚餘轉化成為飼料或者飼料營養液甚至是有機肥料包括對於一些土地土壤的改善"},{"start":7197.04,"end":7222.271,"text":"事實上都有幫助我們上次去看縱圖的時候其實是很期待往這個方向來做一個研議這個部分就麻煩部長持續的用心好 謝謝好 那再過來就是有關環評法跟環評制度總檢討這個部分我們環評上路已經三十年了可是只做了四次的小幅的修正那去年底委託這個環境法律人協會來辦理一個環評的總體檢"},{"start":7226.933,"end":7256.068,"text":"到了今年我們看到檢討的報告檢討報告目前針對執法還有修法的具體策略不知道部長這邊有沒有掌握有 我們預計其實這兩個月都有找各個利害團體來進行一些討論 公聽目前我們預計年底就會提出環境影響評估的制度的精進的措施就是今年會年底會提出一個措施我們希望如果法令要修改的話明年可以來做這個事情"},{"start":7256.488,"end":7274.828,"text":"但是我也發現就是說大家對於環評想像的很不一樣有些人希望越嚴越好有些人希望越快越好那有些人希望說這個不要拖了時間太久造成整個經濟發展等於是這個出現了很大的分歧我們希望能夠透過這次的這個精進的檢討能夠來解決這個問題"},{"start":7276.69,"end":7294.918,"text":"是 其實部長講到一個重點就是大家認為環評是聯合遊戲那結果其實不應該是這個樣子我們希望有更好的思維模式那在這個報告裡面其實有提到目前事業主管機關在環評程序上的角色可能有點弱化"},{"start":7295.658,"end":7321.808,"text":"就是好像所有重責單全部都是環境部其他的單位的配合或者是相關的一些處置會相對比較不足那如果是這個風險評估的這個權責措置或者是跨部會的環境議題全部由來環境部來承擔實權的話似乎我們期待有不同的方式來做相關的考量那這個部分部長可不可以有什麼更好的一些想法"},{"start":7322.769,"end":7346.01,"text":"最近我們也在嘗試有一些案例就是說有些可能未來會有爭議的我們希望說他們在前緣就可以有更好的協作平臺來溝通把這個利害關係者在前面先溝通完成那這個其實國外有一些例如說以生態為主的一個方案我們已經在嘗試當中那我們希望那個可以成功那目前的確委員提到的就是重點所有的壓力全部在我們身上因為我們有否決權"},{"start":7347.051,"end":7369.408,"text":"所以全部都在我們的身上那這個呢對於很多的目的事業主管機關單位他可能就直接丟到我們這邊反正壞人我們來做所以就造成很大的衝擊我們希望說因為很多的國家不是像臺灣這樣的制度所以我們也希望說未來可以經由大家的討論找出來一個臺灣可以稍微再更好的一個方式再走現在目前還沒有答案但是我覺得現在的問題是蠻大的"},{"start":7370.973,"end":7384.806,"text":"是 我們希望Ecosystems應該從源頭就開始不是到最後的才透過環境部來做最後處理這樣其實是不是理想的一種方式來因應這個社會的或者是環境的變遷"},{"start":7386.127,"end":7413.766,"text":"最後就再請教一下部長有關因應這個氣候變遷如何遵循國際相關的這個標準跟落實跨國的合作那剛剛好多人也提到您早上提到了這個相關CCPI在評比上的一些問題不過還是要請教就是說未來如何在這個COP30之後呢有關於國際合作還有國內跨部會之間如何共同來因應這種氣候變遷帶來的問題"},{"start":7417.247,"end":7436.772,"text":"謝謝委員因為這次其實我也跟很多的友邦都有還有非友邦也進行一些面對面的這個雙邊的一個會議其實大家都很肯定我們台灣過去在制定NDC的一個做法特別是過去這一年多很不一樣的這個企圖心那未來呢我是覺得有一個深水區就是說因為"},{"start":7437.492,"end":7463.117,"text":"巴黎氣候協定這個COP裡面的實際上政府的談判是很重要的那可是我們並沒有在那個裡面所以我未來我們跟雙邊的合作能夠瞭解國際的甚至一起去我們的檢探也可以跟國際的檢探去做連結這個部分是我們要突破的所以這個也就是說為什麼要到巴拉圭花三天時間跟他們好好細談建立一種連結的關係甚至我們的友邦貝里斯等等我們都會積極在做"},{"start":7464.625,"end":7490.65,"text":"好所以不管是針對人民健康糧食安全或者是生態永續這個的確除了需要跨國合作以外那我們自己政府這個跨部門的合作也非常非常的重要那期待如果部長有在這個合作或者是在這些處理過程裡面有一些會議的記錄報告的話可不可以提供給我們做參考好可以可以那就麻煩部長好謝謝"},{"start":7494.229,"end":7505.001,"text":"好 謝謝王偉 謝謝部長重新公告黃雄偉 訓導結束後再休息十分鐘謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請部長"},{"start":7520.62,"end":7542.035,"text":"部長好部長我今天想要請教就是我們那個資源回收的這個區塊那我們知道就是說在前一陣子因為非洲豬瘟的關係所以我們那個廚餘回收生廚餘或熟廚餘可能就沒辦法養豬那其實一般的民眾他對於"},{"start":7542.875,"end":7571.349,"text":"到底这个果皮到底是生厨余或者熟厨余其实有的会搞不清楚那另外就是说有的县市他也不收这个果皮那有的县市收果皮所以我觉得说环境部针对这一部分你们是不是要制定一个标准让地方政府可以依循所以部长我想请教就是说像你如果你有吃香蕉的话那这个香蕉皮"},{"start":7572.67,"end":7581.342,"text":"這個香蕉皮是廚餘是可以丟到這個生廚餘裡這個桶子裡面或者是直接丟到垃圾桶是"},{"start":7582.659,"end":7603.255,"text":"保委員因為各縣市他處女生熟處女有的是以前是養豬有的豬他是不吃一些果皮的所以這些果皮會跑到堆肥裡面可是有一些地方他可能是堆肥的又不夠"},{"start":7604.136,"end":7623.354,"text":"或者是各个设施不一样所以他们在对清洁队员在收的时候就会指导这些民众你应该把它放在什么地方依照各地方设施的不同所以是依照各地方设施不同然后它到底是身处于或者是垃圾或者是"},{"start":7624.935,"end":7640.661,"text":"這到底可不可以回收就是按照地方政府的規定原則上中央有一個定定有一個指導原則像三十王振旭這個委員你有提到那帳號到底是什麼這件事情"},{"start":7641.101,"end":7662.204,"text":"所以我們確實有一張不過執行面確實有時候在地方政府我們可以再跟他們多多宣導還是依照我們那一張去做那他們最主要考慮的是他們的這個設施的能量跟他的類別所以他會有小小的一個差異但是差異不大"},{"start":7663.01,"end":7689.487,"text":"差異不大那我想請教就是剛剛講的這個香蕉皮那它到底是這個廚餘還是垃圾一般是做堆肥去的堆肥所以是生廚餘對生廚餘那我想請教就是這個西瓜皮然後橘子皮柚子皮這種軟果皮它到底是這個也會去堆肥因為豬不喜歡吃酸的東西像這些鳳梨或橘子皮這類的"},{"start":7690.347,"end":7718.282,"text":"好 那有的縣市它根本這種果皮它根本也都不收嘛就像基隆它就只有收熟廚餘嘛那其他生廚餘它是不收的因為它沒有那個處理的這個堆肥的量所以它直接焚燒好 那像那個椰子殼啊然後那個榴槤殼有的縣市是收有那個台北市 新北市 高雄市它是另外包的話它是收喔"},{"start":7719.488,"end":7734.264,"text":"所以我都覺得說應該環境部針對生廚餘 熟廚餘或者是這些果皮到底可不可以回收我覺得應該也要有一個統一的標準吧"},{"start":7735.906,"end":7758.222,"text":"那如果说这个县市它的设备不足是不是可以协调各县市政府也许它可以做成堆肥嘛就像刚刚署长讲的可以做成堆肥那如果说它的设施不足的话是不是应该也要去协调地方政府这个我们看到资源回收车都说这个回收这个就是资源嘛"},{"start":7759.062,"end":7788.037,"text":"對啊那個垃圾可以回收就是資源回收車都是這樣說的所以我是不是可以建議就是環境部針對這一部分應該要有更讓民眾可以知道就是說那這些軟的果皮是不是可以做成堆肥或者是就是可以回收那有時候這個現實是這樣子另外一個現實又不一樣好像真的還蠻混亂的所以我是不是可以建議環境部針對這一部分是不是應該要做一個統一"},{"start":7789.465,"end":7803.685,"text":"是 謝謝委員建議我們來做一個指引跟一個統一不過剛才特別提到的真的確實都是會產生爭議的譬如說椰子殼等等之類的"},{"start":7804.522,"end":7825.028,"text":"那這種個別的我們對個別鄉市政跟縣市政府再來做了解他不收的原因確實是什麼有一些是快速堆肥有一些是傳統堆肥一般傳統堆肥還好快速堆肥的話有一些料他們就會選那是不是在縣府裡面做一個統一的調度這個我們來"},{"start":7826.869,"end":7846.368,"text":"來做協調是好那我再請教就是說從非洲豬瘟爆發到現在我們現在是廚餘禁止養豬那現在大部分縣市的這個廚餘都怎麼去化大概每個縣市不一樣那像我們目前統計出來大概48%是進到焚化爐"},{"start":7848.632,"end":7860.883,"text":"就直接進到焚化爐那你現在還是除於禁養豬那直接進到焚化爐這個所有的收除魚那湯湯水水全部都進到焚化爐那這個焚化爐的壽命就會減短"},{"start":7862.604,"end":7885.141,"text":"因為他那個我們現在說鼓勵要瀝乾就是湯湯水水少一些所以基本上現在你看那個廚藝的量我們統計現在1000大概1700噸左右之前是平均是2100所以少了很多因為就是湯湯水水那如果要進這個焚化爐他一定要把這個水能夠瀝乾才能夠進去不是說直接把那個一桶的收水直接倒進去不是這樣的"},{"start":7885.841,"end":7910.658,"text":"所以我是不是在這邊也要請部長就是說我在上禮拜在經濟委員會的時候我有問農業部的陳部長就是說我們現在目前是除以禁止養豬所有的養豬協會他們是希望除以就不要再養豬了全台灣目前還有差不多8%左右"},{"start":7914.401,"end":7927.555,"text":"這個養豬場他是用廚餘養豬那是不是可以因為廚餘的這個去化的部分就是在環境部那到底要不要養豬是農業部的責任那如果說未來真的廚餘禁止養豬的話後續"},{"start":7929.556,"end":7944.543,"text":"廚餘要怎麼去處理就回到這個環境部這邊要來處理要來傷腦筋了所以我是不是可以請教部長雖然這個前一陣子我們這個署長這邊也有在各北中南各開就是讓所有的養豬場"},{"start":7946.483,"end":7971.135,"text":"如果你是用廚餘養豬的話政府會補助就是真主的一些設備真主的監控的設備那是不是可以建議未來因為既然這些養豬協會有這樣的建議就是廚餘不要再養豬因為像我們這一次單一個案的一個廠家就影響到整個全台灣15天淨運淨載"},{"start":7974.096,"end":8000.366,"text":"那也影響到各這個跟豬肉有關的所有的行業所有的產業那這個產業大約有2000億的這個產值所以我既然就是說這個養豬協會有這樣的一個建議那這個農業部的部長也有說要跟環境部這邊再來討論溝通那我想請教部長如果未來當然我們知道現在目前廚餘是直接進到這個焚化爐"},{"start":8001.707,"end":8015.849,"text":"那這個也不是一個永久之計那未來我們廚餘如果禁止養豬的話如果溝通完之後這個未來的目標是廚餘禁止養豬那你們環境部要怎麼去處理去化這些廚餘"},{"start":8016.978,"end":8044.328,"text":"包委員那個當然如果說現在全面禁用的話對於我們環境的設施的處理會是一個非常大的壓力但是目前我們也特別也找過專家諮詢會等於焚化爐大概可以接受10%的這個廚餘在裡面如果立竿的話日本也是這樣在做的所以理論上10%是可以目前我們如果全面禁用可能很辛苦可能也有一些爭議可能也可以過得了那第二個是有人建議說是不是有點落日"},{"start":8044.728,"end":8064.63,"text":"可能一年或是一年半那這個就等我們環保設施的量能夠起來這是最好那也有人說家戶廚餘不要進去只事業廚餘進去就好了所以現在其實大概有五六種方案在那邊那這個部分可能要行政院跨部會協調才能夠來解決我們希望盡早在這個禮拜可不可以對外說明有一個結果"},{"start":8065.652,"end":8081.594,"text":"我希望就是說儘快因為從10月中一直到現在其實一個多月的時間那你廚餘如果全部都進到這個焚化爐其實造成焚化爐未來可能會有一個很大的傷害所以我希望就是說"},{"start":8082.414,"end":8104.622,"text":"環境部跟農業部這邊應該要儘速趕快去溝通未來廚餘的去化問題那如果目標未來的目標短程目標或者是遠程目標最終就是廚餘要禁止養豬的話那你們應該也要再去想一下這些廚餘要怎麼去化不要再造成這個像台中市一樣直接把廚餘直接倒到這個坑"},{"start":8106.323,"end":8121.257,"text":"這個坑裡面去其實這個都造成這個環境二度的一個傷害所以我希望就是說環境部應該要未雨綢繆趕快去想一下未來廚餘要怎麼去化有 我們現在都在一直在進行兩部在協商當中好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝部長我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8206.937,"end":8208.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8944.622,"end":8966.453,"text":"好 接下來請蘇青園召委來做詢問主席辛苦了 謝謝主席那我請部長 然後我們請原署長原署長辛苦了蘇委員好"},{"start":8970.444,"end":8994.615,"text":"部長 我今天來問你比較實際的比較Practical的問題你剛剛早上報 說這幾年來沒有啦 這半年來啦 古年的山左右颱風近年又風頹風頹 雲加南被淡若溼 洋流 一個接一個然後這個都是非常嚴重"},{"start":8995.996,"end":9019.035,"text":"好 下一張那我們有去考察我們嘉義的那幾個滯洪池啊新莊農場啊等等來 你看這個這就是現場用碎的機器搞一搞之後就上車就走了旁邊看到的全部都是各位看到這樣"},{"start":9025.728,"end":9030.45,"text":"這樣不會大馬路旁邊這樣不會造成污染嗎那再來這些能源公司像我們去看的那個溫啊那個自容池六十幾公頃到現在來 下一張你看這個這今天已經有人搬過了到十一月十八"},{"start":9054.878,"end":9065.183,"text":"光電辦公室還泡在水裡不然你很辛苦啦 袁世榮你也很辛苦 大家都很辛苦但是我看你是不會這樣善後啦 不會這樣切磋創業啦這個地方 這個地方 一開始開發的公司什麼雲啦 什麼報啦 什麼泰商啦 連那個泰國的"},{"start":9079.912,"end":9103.656,"text":"什麼MP Energy這是一個做糖的公司做糖業的公司居然再來台灣做人家的二包我們的A廠商去套地去跟銀行拿錢搬錢出來開始蓋蓋完之後就把這個金銀就丟給B然後A就拍拍屁股 獲利了結就走人了"},{"start":9104.568,"end":9131.179,"text":"然後這個也不是你環境部的事情嘛你也沒有辦法固定什麼現在這個美公司 它死了 輸到訪台了這就訪台了 迷迷茫茫這公司一間一間有交叉持股沒什麼 幾大堆啦 原金啦 泰商啦美國的外國的 英商 貝萊德啦 朝陽啦好 骨肉骨粟的幾大堆這裡都在轉來轉去那現在"},{"start":9135.941,"end":9146.433,"text":"颱風吹了 這些騙子亂七八糟 到現在你給他花了三百萬 三百萬 三百萬他敢不敢他敢不敢 我就不省了"},{"start":9149.966,"end":9171.629,"text":"保護委員我們總共實際上才罰了五次總共九百萬那另外環保局那邊也罰了一次一百萬所以有一千萬這一個他繳交的狀況是他們現在還在讓他這一個什麼那個訴願期間所以後續還是會要求"},{"start":9172.351,"end":9196.279,"text":"他還可以掃蕩 掃蕩之後還可以行政訴訟要替你報告的是 屏東那裡 古泥山作颱風古泥很多事情 山作颱風之後有幾個地方 光電板也壞掉了壞掉之後呢 他就要行政部署嘛行政部署 那產險公司 差不多大約都要賠一半"},{"start":9197.754,"end":9204.848,"text":"賠一半 另外一半他就要再貸款確實是他就要自己心底想清楚嘛現在這理工師他現在站到"},{"start":9209.656,"end":9227.928,"text":"把台電拿到的錢就是差不多去納銀行的平均利息償還 差不多二十年嘛像我自己這剛好三年而已三年後你現在一大片受傷那麼慘重他要再去銀行貸第二次款請問會有銀行貸給他嗎銀行是不是在笑啊不然你還要付錢啊"},{"start":9234.134,"end":9253.234,"text":"這不是我的事這不是我的事你說我給你賠我給你賠輸 來 不會沒剩我的 沒有我的嘛這年輕人 大家都孤兒要第二屆要貸款給你不可能嘛所以你說屏東那些地方一地方都要繳多少千萬萬千萬萬的這個他只要一半自己拿下去"},{"start":9256.768,"end":9280.483,"text":"這個B公司A公司就賺掉了我們也賺掉了 獲利掉了現在這個B公司就是客家維持我們四個現在出這個大方胎之後銀行如果還小小的在地上貸款還在建資之後也是恢復到以前繼續發展對不對 沒錯這樣對不對對 這營運模式是這樣如果再一個方胎來現在方胎要來賺什麼現在這集團企業像你說的一年這麼多年"},{"start":9285.922,"end":9300.17,"text":"整個環境部都在疲於奔命啊 我看原署長好可憐的呢去一個出國團隊出來 我命還要死啊現在回來之後 每天就睡在房間 每天就在房間灰頭土臉 這樣命到臉黏臉 這樣 這樣也會被罵啊這 你們這做得這樣 太辛苦了"},{"start":9308.398,"end":9319.826,"text":"這個公司他如果要貸款 現在的銀行會貸給他 我說我來賺啦如果貸給他 銀行有價值 再一屆風災來 又叫掃損我們就再貸三屆 那不可能的事情嘛所以就在擺爛 就在拼的那裡你突然間在那裡回到現場 不斷地說 如果沒有人來請"},{"start":9332.091,"end":9348.476,"text":"人家說戴匯球場 你不要再整個戴匯球場了 糟糕糟糕擺我們撤退 搞不好就丟在那邊搞什麼 搞什麼 我們大家在全民買單這個是很糟糕的事情耶 北京 這要怎麼 你想要怎麼"},{"start":9350.687,"end":9364.976,"text":"這個善後的解決是他們一定要按照法規來處理那目前的那個我知道有幾家那個圓心永興是那個他們想要想要這個再重新開始但是這個還要還慢慢長路"},{"start":9366.042,"end":9380.95,"text":"對啊 你只要說他們要第二天來認證擔保評 重複也比較有可能所以我看我自己單獨自己在做套路的人很失勢不是在親差公共上上槓不然你行政會開發基金再開啟什麼沒可能"},{"start":9384.844,"end":9399.183,"text":"所以這一定要我們探視好 我問你33個案場這33個案場是幾個要復原幾個要放棄了你知不知道那應該不是你的事啦這是能源署的事能源署 能源署今天到來"},{"start":9399.844,"end":9422.836,"text":"沒有沒有 今天是我的業務報告不是能源署這不是能源署的事 你看這三十三個地方後面還有一個風災來 又多三十三個地方整個台灣都沒有了所以我們這種極端氣候下我們台灣這種這樣子脆弱的地形地貌我們有辦法承受這種嗎那這一次也是一個很大的教訓啊衛德都回來 將你們的COP 13"},{"start":9427.998,"end":9444.33,"text":"結論是什麼 結論就是漸漸的減少使用石化燃料然後再生能源要含有核能 很清楚的 妥協也好我看好像會場聽了一個半小時 一個半小時在說結論"},{"start":9447.574,"end":9454.877,"text":"我們台灣現在 我們也不及格 你訓練一些歷齡的人 現在要來輔導你現在說實話 我們台灣現在歷齡的人 訓練一堆人這些人的訓練 我看三萬多個 你是要請幾個"},{"start":9468.058,"end":9487.217,"text":"沒有啦沒有啦 委員那個是平均啦我們比平均薪資還多個5%左右啦對啦 有比較高啦不是4萬他那個藥咖在公聽會啦說什麼請不請戴克老師請不人要做老師啦正當我老師還在找忙頭腦現在不然要做戴克老師薪水太多嘛你一天要發7萬大家就要來了啦 對不對"},{"start":9491.297,"end":9499.246,"text":"我們總統常常都在說我們的首都多關 都多關台府那裡假的這才是條件啊你把他弄多關 要不然這些孩子啊讓你上課 衝衝而已喔現在去到工廠我是希望像那個"},{"start":9509.318,"end":9533.356,"text":"消防的 顧問公司來給我們來給我們 給大家公司做輔導跟他們說你做什麼 做什麼 做什麼這要有種性質啦 跟你說要怎麼輔導不是說一間公司要請一個 公司要怎麼請得上去不然我講話有理嗎有啊 有啊行政要幫忙提高啊 行政六七八萬這樣就 大家這麼的孩子什麼 什麼"},{"start":9537.691,"end":9544.517,"text":"CVAM 叫Carbon嘛Carbon這一類的那這個是國內實際的那將來你這個打算怎麼做訓練了多少人了"},{"start":9550.9,"end":9571.258,"text":"現在的需求的人就是兩萬多人但是需求這是現在在上面要的你分年幾個我們一年大概明年開今年大概會到兩千多人那明年會到三千五百人另外三千還是多了一千多人多了 額外額外所以是兩千多到三千多對你不知道五六年就沒了沒有 這個需求量應該還會更大還會更大"},{"start":9577.421,"end":9590.769,"text":"這如果訓練所有給每間公司的減碳、碳稅、碳費什麼的,整個都可以,現在兩個國家都不可以支持,一個是美國,一個是中國大陸,這全世界都在想什麼,這兩個國家,像川普說的那些笑的,說的那些都笑的,就做笑話這麼講的,你跟歐盟在那裡說,有沒有好?"},{"start":9602.597,"end":9618.392,"text":"現在美國的美國是短暫的啦是那個一些可能是暫時的美國短暫 美國我看它還會浮浪很久它還要久很久現在石化 岳岩油什麼都在浪啊"},{"start":9619.229,"end":9637.539,"text":"我跟美國的Google跟很多ICT的公司有基民他們都很堅定的支持這些事情聯邦政府是比較沒有但是ICT產業都是很支持的所以我們這個路這樣走是對的是是沒問題啦沒問題訓練這些人將來有出路有可以輔導我們的工程有有謝謝有啦好謝謝謝謝有啦好"},{"start":9648.706,"end":9651.79,"text":"好 接下來請廖偉雄 趙偉來做詢問謝謝趙偉 請彭部長來 部長"},{"start":9667.561,"end":9687.505,"text":"廖委員好部長好 辛苦了坐了這麼久的飛機然後有感冒那部長我先第一個要問前幾天這個台南後壁的烏樹林的廢棄物的站置場起火燃燒首先我想問到現在是不是還在燜燒現在火已經停了但是還是有一些燜燒的煙會跑出來所以還是有燜燒的狀況對不對對"},{"start":9690.846,"end":9709.916,"text":"去年其實我也就講過垃圾戰事場垃圾山遍佈全台的議題你當時是說2026解決全台的戰事垃圾山但是這個台南的這個戰事場發生火災請問部長除了監控全台的戰事場的量這個增加之外要怎麼"},{"start":9711.156,"end":9727.829,"text":"預防這種因為附近沒有監視器所以容易發生不明原因的大火的這種戰事場的狀況好 謝謝委員因為這個是屬於台南發生丹納斯的風災大量的露宿還有家庭的廢棄物出來他們找到一個附近他們當然多了三四個點"},{"start":9728.69,"end":9753.627,"text":"在放這個這些東西啦那他們其實在我們這個丹納市的特別條例預算裡面都有編定一個預算如何去去化這些事情所以這個是一個短暫的過程但是我們預估這個去化也要需要到明年才能夠完成所以這個是一個過程當中發生這個事件我們也感到很遺憾部長這兩個點還是一樣這個災後廢棄屋到底怎麼處理而且要多久時間處理這是一回事另外"},{"start":9754.528,"end":9768.921,"text":"你說因為這個風災然後戰事之後發生這件事情如果當時現場有任何一條人命或任何公安意外怎麼辦這是不是一個很嚴重的問題怎麼聽起來好像有一個理由就"},{"start":9769.702,"end":9793.337,"text":"就讓人覺得好像就可以帶過去一樣沒有沒有 這個其實因為它是一個戰制的過程然後它必須還是因為這個大多數是可燃的我們燒的地方還是樹木為主樹木的素質部長等一下我再進一步問到底有哪些狀況因為這個其實也很特別因為針對這個氣象署的足量的雨量資料11月份台南間車站有降雨4天"},{"start":9794.218,"end":9810.368,"text":"那有總共譬如說永康監測站下了6天的雨那這個火災的原因到底是什麼這個現在還要等到他們消防單位來鑑定是會有人為的狀況嗎還是他純粹是有這個高熱物質在裡面悶燒這個現在還不知道"},{"start":9811.468,"end":9825.378,"text":"因為本席其實曾經掉月2019年到2023年全國49處的垃圾站置場5年間就發生了72起火災那其實以台南這個仁德掩埋場之前發生火災也只用空污法才罰了5000元"},{"start":9827.279,"end":9855.431,"text":"我覺得根本不痛不癢那這個部分到底要怎麼處理啊那另外去年我在問的時候你也部長也被詢說要答應要偵射移動式的滅火水塔偵射也沒有新的進度這樣子面對這樣子的狀況要怎麼處理包委員這個是屬於新的這個是新的戰制我知道就是因為風災後可是我的意思一樣有很多這樣子的戰制場那你要到底要怎麼管理才不會再發生這樣子的問題"},{"start":9856.913,"end":9869.76,"text":"我們舊的是有啦但是新的部分的話我們會再跟同仁來討論說跟環保局再確認說不是因為你新設的時候你當時就應該要要求他們是不是就要做管理這是不是代表流程上管理上都有疏忽"},{"start":9872.35,"end":9885.962,"text":"因為你說這個量體非常大那我想要進一步說的就是這樣子看起來長期的監管失靈會不會導致我們現在很多面對這樣的事情只重視文件的審查而不是實體的管控"},{"start":9886.963,"end":9907.624,"text":"甚至在第一線的時候這些管理是不是也只是簡單的去對這些相關的數字那像這樣子新的戰車場出現的時候究竟有什麼樣的SOP因為我要進一步的指出喔當發生這樣的火災現在目前為止請問你們只有公布說PM2.5 PM10的指標是不是"},{"start":9909.652,"end":9929.265,"text":"對嗎可是裡面究竟有沒有其他相關的有毒物質包含著這個戴奧辛啊或者是膚男啊或者是氯化氫這些這些有沒有去檢測難道燒的時候你說真的只有樹木嗎不會有一些塑膠嗎不會有一些其他的有毒的這個廢棄物在裡面燃燒嗎"},{"start":9931.839,"end":9959.352,"text":"更有報告 烏樹林這個場是颱風之後集中的一個場那其實它是暫時的一個場在整個台南的計畫裡面它也有提特別條例也有預算準備把它清除那不幸的在這段期間它發生不過我們初步雖然在這個火災調查不過最可能的一些原因樹木堆積多了確實它在這個"},{"start":9960.852,"end":9988.618,"text":"熟化的過程會產生一些木質的一些氣體出來那是比較容易燃燒的可能是這個原因在烏樹林的這個場剛開始但是署長你可以確定裡面沒有其他的有毒物質在燃燒嗎因為我說真的啦你們現在只講常常只講說這個空品預警只有講PM2.5或PM10的這些常見的指標那請問有沒有其他的有毒物那住在附近的這些居民怎麼辦"},{"start":9989.338,"end":10017.112,"text":"你們有沒有什麼相關的配套所以現在就兩個問題嘛你要怎麼去檢討精進第一個你的戰事場出現之後你要怎麼去管理他不會發生這樣的事情第二個當發生這樣的事情的時候你們的公布的這些指標還有沒有其他的有毒物質的去鑑定對不對第三個現在常常的短期戰事場都變成永久戰事啊他可以申請再延長申請再延長你到底什麼時候可以把它處理完"},{"start":10023.814,"end":10047.213,"text":"跟委員報告其實這塊地是先跟國防部借的一塊地台南跟國防部也有在討論它的去化國防部希望他趕快把它處理掉所以實際上他到今年12月開始他就要啟動他的減量往外運的一個過程他的進度大概是這個樣子"},{"start":10047.833,"end":10066.728,"text":"沒有署長我要跟你說這是一個事件而已但是最近發生的事件太多了這只是你只是解釋這個事件我要講的事情是你結構性系統性管理上面制度上面你到底要怎麼精進今天發生這個大火你們說要燒多久之前是不是說要燒七天一個禮拜還是要多少時間"},{"start":10067.714,"end":10089.147,"text":"目前火勢已經控制下來了那現在門燒之後呢會不會又再燒起來呢應該不會現在的消防跟環保單位的人都在現場看不過委員的建議我覺得很好就是說天災的後續這個戰事場的管理上面我們確實可以再精進例如"},{"start":10090.027,"end":10116.865,"text":"引進跟一般掩埋場一樣的這些設施譬如說紅外線的感應如果溫度有增加的話那這部分可以做一些應該是要要求暫置的時候就要趕快把這個相關的管理上放上去因為你要預防這樣的事情發生嘛你發生之後你去公佈這些數據然後你要再去檢測有毒物對附近的居民是都已經是很大的傷害謝謝委員的建議這個我們真的可以來"},{"start":10117.505,"end":10146.585,"text":"對再來就是你們越世界的垃圾我也想要請問一下其實當時這個11月5號本席也在委員會執行行政執行行政院核定的112年到117年你們預防環保犯罪暨智慧環保打造綠色幸福家園計劃你們說提報終止那另外要提一個強化全國廢棄物流向的遠端數位管理智慧決策計劃那舊的計劃被你們終止新的計劃現在行政院還沒有核定對不對部長"},{"start":10147.866,"end":10171.562,"text":"那個預算已經有了但是行政院還沒有核定對嘛行政院還沒有核定嘛那個明年的預算已經編進去但我真的是比較想要請問一下這兩個計畫到底有什麼差別哪一個新的計畫真的比較厲害嗎剛剛你們有講到有關於所謂智慧維尼的系統喔這些這兩個計畫之間到底為什麼你要廢掉原本的然後要用新的是技術更新還是你更有把握可以追蹤的好"},{"start":10172.574,"end":10193.246,"text":"是原計劃我們把它精進成後來非法去資源端監控計劃那這計劃可以包含前計劃所以我們就把前計劃經費不要重複不要跌闖價值我們就把它處理掉那這個自衛委理計劃目前我們預算有匡列"},{"start":10194.247,"end":10215.195,"text":"希望大院來執行剛剛署長你是有說現在已經有一些智慧維理的使用對不對是 我們先做先導型的示範計畫從我們自己的業務會裡面去做處理所以其實目前你們示範覺得效果很好很好那因為世界這個事情是等一下沒有放到智慧維理因為點數不夠所以沒放在那個地方"},{"start":10216.135,"end":10239.541,"text":"對 所以我就想問嘛發生這種事情誰會想到會有人把它倒在這個觀光景點那你們這樣未來要佈置點的時候這種地方你要怎麼涵蓋到會 會把它涵蓋到會把它涵蓋進去全國有2000點所以未來2000點你會把它全部的佈建進去是 依照我們分析的那個情道的熱點跟可能的區域去做佈設"},{"start":10241.251,"end":10261.826,"text":"甚至也跟委員報告未來的所有的CCTV監視器經過如果我們的廢清法修正之後我們也會跟警政單位借接所以以後這些東西都跑不掉所以你確定以後用這樣子的管理方式就不會再有人亂倒垃圾都可以掌握得到因為現在其實要的確有一點時間差那未來的話這個時間差可以降到最少"},{"start":10262.586,"end":10282.626,"text":"部長我覺得這個真的是很嚴重的問題最近好幾次環境部我想這都是現在大家很關注的議題到處有這種所謂的廢棄屋亂清道的部分我要請本席要請你們趕快不要再等了因為你也說過任何一個破壞環境都是罪嘛好不好好再來我想要再問"},{"start":10284.989,"end":10298.517,"text":"就是有關於光電環評修法的部分因為其實上個禮拜前個禮拜大院已經通過修法了嘛對不對可是我今天看到你們的報告你們寫的"},{"start":10299.898,"end":10325.271,"text":"好像跟修法的內容是不一樣的今天委員會發的資料你們說山坡地這個裝置容量兩萬千瓦以上或面積15公頃以上者均需實施環評這是代表你們不想要認大院修過的法嗎部長我手上我手上這一本啊今天委員會發的報告你們的環境部的報告第18頁第18頁"},{"start":10329.253,"end":10346.298,"text":"這是代表還是你們的報告沒有更新是超到還是說你們不想要認是這個意思嗎第18頁今天的報告是18頁上面第二行好像版本不一樣"},{"start":10347.772,"end":10360.177,"text":"可能版本不一樣我們我們應該是我們會遵照大院來進行會遵照大院因為你們你們今天這個印出來的報告可能你們後來是還有更新還是怎麼樣所以舊的報告是沒有寫到是不是"},{"start":10365.851,"end":10387.95,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在報告是有更新在17月我們已經有把大院通過11月14號三讀通過的內容放進去我今天這份 我這個報告是我早上來委員會的時候拿的可是我們手上的是有更新過的我們確實已經把我來簽到的時候拿到這個好 所以你們有改你們會遵照大院的這個修法對不對是好 OK 因為我要告訴部長其實這真的"},{"start":10389.637,"end":10404.336,"text":"讓民怨四起啊本席在民間的時候大家也聽到說什麼山野光電板水野光電板海野光電板都覺得說環境部到底在做什麼我知道你前面有講過你們希望討論所以但是本席要告訴你們的意思就是說在"},{"start":10404.776,"end":10424.001,"text":"能源轉型的過程當中就是發生一大堆的弊案重生而且過去環境部多次的說要修研要去重新檢討環評的標準才導致現在我們要去不得不透過修法在母法上面給你們這樣子的一個更上位的法令要求你們嚴格去執行"},{"start":10425.041,"end":10447.797,"text":"所以部長這部分希望你們可以尊重大院的決議我也期待就是說大院在決定那個量子的時候因為委員我們40幾個在執法裡面現在全部拉到母法之後這變成一個很特別的一個特例那黃國昌召委他其實在大院的時候也說那個數值可以來大家來討論可是我很遺憾的那個沒有經過太多的討論"},{"start":10448.277,"end":10469.103,"text":"部長因為你們研議研議又再研議研議了非常的久本席在這裡聽到多次的質詢你們在研議的過程中就開始有很多的業者不斷的要增大加大他的開發這不得不逼著大院必須要儘速的修法要求環境部好好的落實不要再破壞我們的國土尤其在敏感區域謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":10474.642,"end":10491.674,"text":"有請趙偉還有部長接下來請楊耀委員來做詢問謝謝趙偉 趙偉我請一下彭部長來請部長"},{"start":10495.579,"end":10512.484,"text":"我們這次非洲豬瘟引起很多關於處於去化的討論很多縣市可能將來也都會禁止處於養豬避免有一些傳染的風險"},{"start":10516.705,"end":10538.878,"text":"台灣每天的廚餘大概有超過六成是靠餵養組織來處理是 現在 對那經過這一次的事情以後呢可能有一大部分都是直接進入焚化爐可是呢這個不只會對焚化爐的設備造成影響也會產生到外"},{"start":10540.802,"end":10569.552,"text":"戴奧鑫等等的空污的問題所以有幾個問題請教部長就是在這一次的事件中有專家提出日本相關的處理廚餘養豬的方式是比較先進的那他們也沒有非洲豬瘟的問題主要是因為先將廚餘區域集中處理而且乾燥飼料化我們未來有沒有可能"},{"start":10570.744,"end":10573.599,"text":"考慮統一由中央政府集中處"},{"start":10575.925,"end":10601.503,"text":"全程來管理珍珠中心避免個別業者違規的情形謝謝委員的這個問題其實這個部分我們其實跟農業部一直不斷的在討論這個問題至於說這個珍珠中心的共同珍珠這個是農業部在主政當然我們在溝通過程當中因為上禮拜有一群委員跟我們的團隊也有到日本去看"},{"start":10601.983,"end":10627.655,"text":"那非常贊同委員你說的這個意見那共同珍珠中心是有它的必要性存在但是那個農業部他們有特別提到說臺灣的這個國情都覺得說自己組的會比較好別人組的可能到我這邊是不是可以得到一個認證所以這個部分我們有聽到多方的意見都在辯論當中所以現在我們希望這個禮拜可以有一個更完整的一個答案出來"},{"start":10629.057,"end":10649.57,"text":"對 當然沒有一個政策是可以十全十美不過假如說個別徵組就是有的時候多數的守法合規的業者有時候會被受到波及個別徵組的部分個別徵組我之前也有講過就是要怎麼去徵"},{"start":10650.57,"end":10660.178,"text":"要怎麼去監控這個也是有問題所以假如說全國統一處理的珍珠中心可能"},{"start":10662.743,"end":10691.12,"text":"環境部跟農業部有一個共同的政策方向甄主中心是屬於農業部在主政我們是處理這個廚餘委員你剛才說到的現在如果完全禁的話當然大概有將近50%的廚餘會進到焚化爐的確會造成我們現在很大的壓力我們是希望是不是有一個落日有一個時間點然後把各個縣市的廚餘的處理量能夠拉起來所以這個部分方案還在討論當中"},{"start":10692.766,"end":10712.336,"text":"都需要有一個落日的時間所以在這段時間裡面呢環境部這邊要怎麼降低需要燃燒的廚餘看是先乾燥處理還是怎麼樣減少空氣汙染"},{"start":10715.837,"end":10727.391,"text":"對我們現在只能說第一個是一定要瀝水把水瀝掉瀝乾然後他在燒的時候然後那個焚化爐的操作他一定要溫度不能降低所以他有一定的操作的一個流程"},{"start":10727.895,"end":10750.791,"text":"那目前我們看那個各個焚化爐操作是沒有什麼太大問題而且我們也找過專家還有焚化爐專家去討論大概可以10%的廚餘在焚化爐運作都沒有不會產生大躍興的問題但是我們還是會未來這一個月會叫他們再額外再測一次大躍興可是假如只有一層可以進入焚化爐那其他的呢"},{"start":10751.611,"end":10766.444,"text":"我現在大概有四成八進到焚化爐其他的話可能是堆肥或是生殖能等等反正就是必須要再就是假如說"},{"start":10768.865,"end":10792.271,"text":"廚餘的部分要進入焚化爐先前的把關還是很重要環境部可能要去落實這樣子的一個政策方向碳費的繳納明年就要上路我想要請問一下部長看看環境部這邊到底準備好了沒有因為我們"},{"start":10792.911,"end":10821.011,"text":"大概明年五月就要實質繳納對不對對嘛那依照今年的排放量申請來申報繳納攤費呢大概環境部這邊規範的收費對象有有兩百八十一間公司五百個工廠他們申報了嘛"},{"start":10821.876,"end":10842.404,"text":"報告委員現在最新的數字是465個廠252家公司然後大概現在已經有430個廠提出自主減量計畫也就是說他不想要繳300塊他只要繳50或100那剩下大概35個廠他可能就在那個邊緣他只要繳一點點錢而已所以基本上呢目前我們來看的話"},{"start":10843.164,"end":10871.681,"text":"因為他自己要提自主減碳計畫他就要符合我們國家減碳的目標所以我是覺得碳費的制度在這次來說的話因為這樣的誘因反而是蠻不錯的一個結果部長我先說因為你來環境部也一年半了其實我對你的政策落實的能力是很肯定的所以也希望我們就是因為碳費的繳納"},{"start":10873.202,"end":10902.082,"text":"就是已經要實施了嘛所以有一些相關的問題可以先行做規劃的要規劃出來那大概第一年預估可以收入多少大概40億左右40億好那40億呢有40億的收入那這一些呢就是這一些錢必須要挹注在溫室氣體管理的基金對不對對然後專款專用"},{"start":10903.102,"end":10922.692,"text":"你們現在有沒有就是以後收入要支出的方向有部長就利用這個機會把它詳細的說一下大概有20億是最主要是要集中在減碳例如說有些減碳的技術或是說各個"},{"start":10924.093,"end":10946.975,"text":"不管任何的單位不管是中央地方的單位假設提出一個可以有效的減碳的量我們就可以直接來補助給他研發的計畫大概20億左右雖然不多但是很有用那第二個是有一些綠色的這個項目可以一些銀行的融資我們可以補貼這個利息大概有幾億的附近那調適我們也編列了大概3到5億左右"},{"start":10947.875,"end":10960.985,"text":"調適因為氣候變態調適會越來越嚴重那目前這個部分會由我們這邊主動來編列那其他的部分呢包含了這個國際合作還有甚至我們環境部氣候署他本身的運作所以大概呢total大概是40億左右的預算"},{"start":10962.745,"end":10989.801,"text":"所以就是大概是用來補助綠色融資然後地方政府的相關的就是他一定要提出一個實際上可以減碳的量那我們可以來卓越給他補助地方政府提還是一般的企業也可以我們還是以事業為主以事業為主 就是公司行號"},{"start":10991.022,"end":11020.442,"text":"是不是鼓勵那個例如說他要減碳的他要繳的碳費他如果要減得更多我們就鼓勵補助給他一些希望他更積極的去減那這個的審核跟把關一定要很小心因為畢竟不是假如是給地方政府有的時候比較不會有產生很多問題那直接補助給民間企業的話這個部分可能相關的機制"},{"start":11021.277,"end":11045.636,"text":"也要趕快去做一定的規劃我還是希望我們碳費收了還是可以用在減碳的部分剛剛部長的說明我覺得大概就是這樣子的方向應該是很不錯的謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11062.797,"end":11089.837,"text":"請劉建國委員發言部長你先休息 先坐一下你辛苦了 又感冒所以聽我講幾句好不好讓你緩衝一下我沒有像其他委員都沒有這樣處理尤其楊委員都是這個樣子你知道立法院有八個委員會那我們這個委員會正確名稱叫什麼嗎"},{"start":11092.827,"end":11117.841,"text":"你不用回答我 你知道就點頭 不知道就搖頭很長喔 對不對那其他委員會為什麼這麼精簡經濟部 國發會在隸屬經濟委員會就經濟兩個字 對不對那交通部也轄管很多嘛 就叫交通委員會然後司法法制多兩個字交易文化多兩個字除此之外 財政這樣那為什麼我們這個委員會"},{"start":11119.782,"end":11133.548,"text":"的這個整個證明這麼長你知道主要原因嗎 不知道那主席是不知道 不知道他的簽名叫做社會福利基於衛生環境委員會"},{"start":11134.648,"end":11155.926,"text":"那我必須要特別跟部長講說台灣就是要打造一個社會福利一個多樣然後非常非常興盛的一個福利國家我想這是一個打造的目標但是我們把打造的目標放在最前面後面最重要最重要的強化的這樣的一個重中之重還是在環境"},{"start":11157.478,"end":11176.812,"text":"所以當環境好了環境好了 很多事情可以迎刃而解環境不好了 衛生醫療的支出會增加社會福利就會遭受到排擠所以我是用這樣來詮釋我覺得環境部是在整個這個未緩委員會來講是重中之重"},{"start":11177.912,"end":11200.507,"text":"然後看到部長這麼積極的因應了相關的一些作為參與在其他的國家這樣的一個代表台灣爭取很多的這樣的一個訊息的流通還有國家的整個地位的這樣的一個提升然後打造這個整個全世界的對環境保護的這樣的議題的這樣的一個"},{"start":11202.408,"end":11225.297,"text":"一個展現我想這個對台灣都是一個非常正向的幫助但是我們要在國外講的非常理直氣壯那在台灣的環境保護就真的要做到實質的有一定程度的這樣的一個進步跟進展我想這是無庸置疑的那我現在回歸到我今天要特別強調的主題請部長看一下頭影片"},{"start":11227.505,"end":11252.536,"text":"這個蘇丹隆 一個蘇丹隆 尤其是紅色真的很恐怖陰影籠罩全台 史丹魯環真的是名存實亡為什麼要這麼講 兩年 這兩年台灣民眾持續籠罩在蘇丹隆的恐懼之下去年是辣椒粉用吃的 今年是連化妝品都有 用抹的當初因為平安的事件 所以行政院提出了史丹魯環的構想並在105年成立了讀畫局"},{"start":11253.696,"end":11263.327,"text":"作為食安環的第一環112年更改制為環境部化學物質管理署同時也制定毒性及關注化學物質管理法"},{"start":11264.383,"end":11293.763,"text":"那這一切就是要落實源頭的管控這個法律當時琢磨很深的除了主席之外還有我然後我們至今你有沒有自己貪白我們如今這個蘇丹瓦的原料不斷從國外被進口並且用在食品化妝品上每次都是食藥署查驗到這也很奇怪那環境部在這個地方的功能是發生什麼事情這是第一件事情"},{"start":11294.723,"end":11321.224,"text":"那這一次出問題的是紅色護方原料紅色護方原料是從新加坡進口那進口商現場超過5批 5批中就有3批驗出大量的這個蘇灘紅的這個紅色素 蘇灘紅色素分別是在今年1月 2月 10月然後這些原料提供給我們台灣的14家業者12家的化妝品業者 次成產品在台灣販售"},{"start":11323.889,"end":11338.386,"text":"環境部的化學水質是源頭的管理無庸置疑但是在蘇灘紅的辣椒粉還是這次試驗中我覺得化學水的源頭管理似乎已經把只有 似乎只有是把蘇灘紅列為毒化物"},{"start":11340.322,"end":11363.299,"text":"那就這樣而已 今天沒有其他具體的作為單純進口的蘇丹農或列管的化學物質 毒化物流向是很好追蹤 去管控的嘛 對不對但是齁 但是這是基本功啊你目前的蘇丹農 辣椒農 或是這次付放的原料在國外已經混合調製好的產品 輸入國內等於是毫無監管 毫無門檻"},{"start":11365.721,"end":11384.43,"text":"這是很奇怪一件事情嘛然後 去年蘇丹農是有人檢舉喔沒有人檢舉也不知道要讓民眾吃多久那這次是因為國際間傳出有化妝品參入蘇丹農的這色素原料的訊息才促使食藥署動起來才發現這個蘇丹農化妝品已經在台灣內部販售了是這個樣子喔"},{"start":11388.649,"end":11412.228,"text":"所以我這邊就要提醒說環境部必須要面對這樣的一個課題如果在邊境就可以發現這些劣管的化學或毒化物的原料甚至於這個是複方的部分只要有它被我們劣管了只要它被我們關注的這個相關的化學物品基本上哪怕它是複方比例多少我們都應該列為追蹤"},{"start":11414.568,"end":11442.789,"text":"不然這件事情會層出不窮所以我是希望我們要確保這些不會再流到所謂的食品廠或是藥裝廠甚至會不會有另外什麼樣的產業我都不清楚所以我在本週三有特別在這個變更議程再加一個有關於此次蘇丹農化專品的專案報告我要請環境部當天一定要提出如何強化源頭管理的監導報告"},{"start":11443.956,"end":11451.189,"text":"可以吧 可以啦齁好 署長你要不要 署長啦 署長 你是部長部長你請坐 我沒請你起來你 署長你要講兩句嗎你講好才講 時間要夠"},{"start":11457.611,"end":11478.664,"text":"你講不好 我就告訴你兩句而已來 第一句謝謝 謝謝委員那這個部分我們禮拜三會跟大家來做報告那簡單跟各位報告一下基本上化學物質的管理在我們台灣市各個部門依照各自的法令去管理所以像比如說這上面講的這個蘇丹紅4號"},{"start":11481.266,"end":11502.092,"text":"目前是依化妝品衛生管理法去做後面的一個監督跟管理這個是大家分工合作去進行的對 大家分工合作去進行但是我剛剛提到的問題基本上好像他這個副方進來的時候你們也沒有辦法去掌握也沒有辦法去管控也不曉得他的流向"},{"start":11505.188,"end":11513.786,"text":"這個源頭管理是不是有很大的盲點還是當時我們在修電網的過程裡面有遺漏什麼地方是不是要牽涉到神安火的修正了"},{"start":11514.927,"end":11533.699,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟食藥署來做討論目前在化學署這邊的規定就是1ppm以上比如以這個來講它今天檢測出來的只有1.3ppm它的濃度其實是低於我們在讀管法你剛剛講1ppm 現在講1.3ppm不是 我說1%1%"},{"start":11536.541,"end":11561.739,"text":"我們管的是1%化妝品這一邊的現在檢測出來是1.3ppm遠低於我們現在在獨管法裡面所管的那個濃度所以目前的整個在安健護的權責裡面是由食藥署依照化妝品衛生管理法的規定要去做後面的追蹤但是這個直接從邊境進口進來的時候"},{"start":11565.498,"end":11585.569,"text":"食藥署就必須要去做檢測進來的時候財政部海關這邊跟食藥署這邊就要去做一些申報勾結的一個這一些的一個管理這個資料都會在化學雲端裡面看得到目前是這樣化學雲端就是在這一個範圍裡面沒有功能"},{"start":11587.046,"end":11598.204,"text":"沒有任何的分配上的責任這件事目前的情形是在食藥署那如果高於1%以上那我們這邊就會要求"},{"start":11600.489,"end":11615.247,"text":"進口或者是輸入的或者使用的都要去取得核可還要申報相關的資料這些資料我們都可以進行相關的勾結但是現在到這裡有個問題嘛你說一定要高於1%你們才會就是連結到你們對不對"},{"start":11617.95,"end":11632.767,"text":"這個業者他可能要進口業者他之前會規避這樣的一個比例嘛他如果每次這樣規避比例他永遠就是沒有辦法被你們所查緝到嘛可是他可以依照目前食藥署可以依照化妝品管理法"},{"start":11633.408,"end":11648.651,"text":"的規定去做後面的勾擊跟後面的追蹤所以你現在提醒我就是說食藥署從頭到尾就是沒有很積極的然後很認真的然後去做勾擊然後去接到這樣的訊息的時候他才願意主動去查驗才有辦法去把這些抓出來是不是這樣"},{"start":11649.251,"end":11670.298,"text":"其實 你那天 禮拜三的時候你就必須要這樣講清楚喔我不是要叫你們活熊吐槽啦因為食安團太重要了每一個部位有一定的功能那原種管理基本上我一直會認定是在我們環境部嘛那但是剛剛聽署長這麼講還是有這樣的一個一個任期上的一個分門別列的責任的歸屬嘛"},{"start":11671.238,"end":11697.75,"text":"這個我要尊重啊 對不對那我們是要討論這樣的一個制度是不是有檢討的空間還是我要討論說這個制度定在這個地方那是有執行單位況持他的職務才導致每每都要接收到檢舉還是什麼訊息他們才有辦法在邊境裡面去查緝大法這不對啊 這我們當時七年修了八次的食安法那顯然在立法上就有很大的疏失啊我們也必須要檢討啊"},{"start":11700.473,"end":11724.723,"text":"對不對跟委員報告那個食藥署是依照產品的後端去做整個一個查驗結果查驗到化妝品裡面有這一些蘇丹紅4號所以後面就啟動了相關的預防性的下架的這樣的一個措施對 他是成品之後他去查驗嘛他是接到這樣的國際間的訊息嘛他才去做這個動作嘛"},{"start":11725.703,"end":11744.057,"text":"那我現在強調的是這些東西這些原料進口商把這些有檢出蘇蘭榮4號的紅色方原料進口進來在邊境進來的時候到底誰應該負起更大的責任嗎我要強調是這樣啊是你環境部還是你食藥署"},{"start":11746.676,"end":11760.714,"text":"雖然現在沒辦法打呼我沒關係我們星期三請你把相關的一些因應作為跟其他報告就提出來我們好好來討論好不好好謝謝因為時間到了請回不然你還是坐著我再講一下主席給我一點時間因為我請長都給你很久時間"},{"start":11764.318,"end":11784.111,"text":"在部長任內 台灣連續兩年被這個看守德國公佈嘛這個氣候變遷表現指標CCPI的為後端班我知道部長很不服氣啦剛剛在詢詢答覆的相關的這些委員的時候都有特別提到那本來是要還是要請部長看一下這一個看守德國的數據他是會說話的"},{"start":11786.913,"end":11801.943,"text":"2024、2025到至今2026我們台灣是從61名又上升到59名嘛 對不對表示台灣仍然在進步只是這個進步齁 有一點比較不如預期嘛 好但是台灣的民視緩慢在進步同時還有一個數據 也請部長看一下2024是36.94 2025是34.892026會不會來到這個33.64"},{"start":11813.955,"end":11825.871,"text":"這個媽媽氣候行動聯盟的徐理事長特別提出平衡方式跟過去一樣但多數國家的分數都在下降這會不會顯示整體全球對氣候變遷因應的動力正在減弱"},{"start":11827.239,"end":11848.019,"text":"這是一件事情那這些數據其實真正正在發出警訊全球對抗氣候變遷的態度意思是不是正在隨著政治環境的改變有鬆懈或是緩慢腳步台灣是不是也如此那本期預測明年看守德國給出來的平穩及民智可能都會更差"},{"start":11849.198,"end":11863.459,"text":"那部長知道 知道什麼原因嗎我在這邊提供 今天有很多委員特別追尋你啦上上週 這個兩個禮拜前啦 就14日我們立法院已經通過 三讀通過針對太陽能的環評法在沒有經過本委員會的一個討論下"},{"start":11864.64,"end":11881.391,"text":"也沒有公聽會 那草案直接近乎二讀那在野黨當然也人數啦 優勢就通過了嘛這個現有國有地 大致上就這樣太安人的新環評法 國有地公有地不論規模皆需環評 大致上這樣嘛山坡水面型 5公頃以上100萬人以上需環評 不分地別"},{"start":11882.552,"end":11905.192,"text":"這應該是40公尺或是40百萬瓦以上灰屋頂光電皆需環屏應該是沒有錯然後報導就出來了嘛葉哲替代工協會陳棟喊出台灣能源轉型大挫敗更由葉哲表示我就不需要再講了產業如為政治鬥爭下的這樣的如同棄嬰但是我現在"},{"start":11907.074,"end":11933.639,"text":"在部長這個國家氣候變遷對策委員會中的一個報告積極設定減碳性目標這不定不可嘛如果依照目前這個狀況環境部明年要如果跟看守德國解釋台灣正朝向這個綠能轉型我們可以逐步在2030 2035達成減煤20% 9%同時再生能源分別可以提高到30至36%"},{"start":11935.783,"end":11961.821,"text":"這你寫的嗎 這你報告的嗎這都沒辦法我們也跟經濟部討論 我跟人員所討論有一個版我很擔心因為這個法過了之後整個再生能源的產業會重挫然後這個目標很有可能都會達不到所以委員你提到的明年的優先真的是我們現在的優先"},{"start":11963.376,"end":11979.213,"text":"再看兩則新聞 不只如此我們要跟國際進行啊部長剛剛從巴拉圭回來而已嘛韓國綠電佔比以橫耍台灣業者講什麼話就不再講了啦他們的日照時數都沒有比我們台灣多咧他們現在的佔比橫耍台灣"},{"start":11980.334,"end":12009.204,"text":"這是很衝突跟矛盾的啦齁另外一個是他們的總統齁李在民總統確實百日燃燃能源路線轉向綠電總統有意他們李總統有意暫緩新核電廠能源交由環境部掌管齁啊大致上是這樣講強調他們強調這個能源政策啦應集中在同一部位以加快解決問題的速度啦齁另外一個透過再生能源再生能源滿足路易增長的電力需求是唯一可行的解決方案"},{"start":12010.124,"end":12034.986,"text":"這個我大致上截取重點這是他們這個新任的李總統特別明確的公開的這樣做這個表達那我現在要請教部長目前問題已經不是在看走德國的公佈數據到底公不公平是本席本來就希望能迎頭趕上韓國這樣人員轉型的先進國家我們台灣現在人用超車是不是未來連車尾燈都看不到"},{"start":12036.147,"end":12049.64,"text":"還有 面對這樣的狀況 環境部要如何因應新法的產業衝擊是要用環評法的程序 還是你要降低暗場的環評壓力還是有相關的配套措施"},{"start":12052.606,"end":12068.915,"text":"繼續來努力這個綠能然後台積電他未來可能還有很多很多產業未來面對的綠能的這些情況的這樣的一個占比這樣的檢探這個很多面向都必須要再做討論還有經濟部現在已經規劃要加強屋頂太陽能那環境部"},{"start":12072.837,"end":12089.922,"text":"修法已經過了一週多了我現在沒有看到我們環境部有實質的一個處理方向要不要簡單說明一下我們現在其實經濟部有要求說要跟我們來討論說因應這樣的一個新的修法我們的衝擊有多大是不是要提出一些想法出來那目前我們還在研商當中"},{"start":12090.962,"end":12104.121,"text":"那我是認為是依照目前的這樣的做法的確對再生能源的一個發展會對臺灣造成很大的影響那這個就影響到我們未來的產業他在淨零的目標裡面達不到國家的要求這個後面的影響是非常大的"},{"start":12105.233,"end":12119.512,"text":"好 我還是希望部長盡快做相關的一些然後具體的書面資料就給我們做參考最後 我在為什麼這次在總質詢我選擇經濟委員會我特別跟卓院長講對不起 把他降級了卓院長講 廚餘"},{"start":12123.237,"end":12152.24,"text":"處理的事情不能再拖了一個台塑從原有幫於縣政府10噸拉到30噸都可以做了台灣沒有任何的理由中央政府更沒有任何的藉口在講說最後的這些處理養豬的方式不能解決中央承擔起這樣的責任啦要快速的因應啦擴大可以處理量能轉化為有機質的回料的地方"},{"start":12153.291,"end":12174.457,"text":"一瞬間一個步驟然後快速的趕快的去做溝通去做積極的怎樣的一個資源到位就可以馬上解決掉了我們不能再花生一次我們中央也責無旁貸啊是不能再拖了拜託部長 謝謝我們這個禮拜 這禮拜會希望有一個結果謝謝 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝劉建國委員"},{"start":12185.427,"end":12186.609,"text":"請盧縣議委員發言主席有請彭部長委員好"},{"start":12201.67,"end":12226.429,"text":"我們先看一下這次我們的排名剛剛趙委有提到不過還是要再講一下我們目前是在66個排名裡面的第59也就是說倒數我們只不過贏了幾個國家我們的分數確實是很低有大概幾個面向就是說碳排放 資源再利用還有能源使用的方式還有政策面我一直在想部長你有沒有想過要如何前進"},{"start":12228.406,"end":12256.097,"text":"包委我們有自己前進的目標啦但是這個評估的這個方法他是就三個本地的這個專家委員我沒有批評他們但是就是說其實整個制度設計如果更好的話我們應該不是這樣的分數那我再 下幾個質詢就是他針對這些分數可以增加的部分我希望你能夠放在心裡面因為我覺得這個報告裡面25頁真正提到原住民的部分那是在第18頁的其中的只有"},{"start":12257.317,"end":12280.777,"text":"一行而已所以我总觉得国家很像对原住民都不够重视那我们就看我们之前说希望能够建立参与机制这些那我们目前都没有看到这个部分那我们就来看看公正转型然后就是我们的温室气体管理基金这个部分希望我们有一个代表在里面可是看了这个专家学者或者说民间团体"},{"start":12281.477,"end":12301.352,"text":"或多沒有看到 反而看到一些你們對人權 兒福青年這些就是注重他們的一些諮詢可是關於原住民族的代表裡面一個都沒有那我希望說如果現在是還沒有的話是不是有可能在近幾年裡面設置我們的管理基金裡面能夠有原住民族代表"},{"start":12302.589,"end":12318.267,"text":"包委 這個原住民代表是在我們公正轉型裡面那我們的未來的溫室氣體管理基金呢的確有一塊我們會跟國發會合作因為公正轉型是國發會在負責的我們會把這個原住民的意見把它納入更多那我們現在都看到你們在辦企業就是說在"},{"start":12319.768,"end":12348.728,"text":"算是说它的多少的碳税或什么可是我们没有看到你们看到原住民的土地可以帮忙吸收多少税那我一直在看原住民55个乡你看哪个部落的气候脆弱度最高土石流的风险最大其实这些在制定碳费分配比例的前置作业我觉得应该要多努力不然我们想把分数提前的话我们刚刚看到一个政策面的一个执行其实这个其实都是在一个评比里面所以我就在想"},{"start":12349.769,"end":12361.93,"text":"有沒有可能看到原住民主土地自然碳會盤點的相關報告我們需要知道涉及原住民主土地可以貢獻多少碳會我覺得這個部分有沒有在進行"},{"start":12362.421,"end":12391.4,"text":"有 我們這個跟那個園民會還有跟農業部有在盤點這些的量有多少正在進行當中OK 那我之前有看到7月8號的我們的溫室氣體基金的那個管理的那個會議記錄看到那個未來的45億就是大概有40億是你說11.6是在政策18億是在縣市的一些減碳的一個計畫4億大概在調適2億在公正轉型那5分的話是在企業的一些融資或者是利息的一些補貼"},{"start":12392.801,"end":12409.709,"text":"可是你知道這次的COP30他們在熱帶森林基金這個部分他明確指定20%是要提供給原住民的一個基金的使用就是回饋他們對真正對森林的一些貢獻度所以我希望這個"},{"start":12410.749,"end":12428.165,"text":"以後問世氣體基金你看這個剛才我們所講的這些大概五個項目裡面完全沒有針對原住民部分的一個所謂的貢獻度所以為什麼我們一直強調說我們的這個管理基金裡面應該要有原住民然後我們的環評委員應該要有原住民因為我們"},{"start":12429.318,"end":12458.027,"text":"我們整個在看台灣的這個地圖裡面我們的森林還有我們原住民居住的範圍確確實實是佔了我們國土的比例非常大可是你的報告裡面25頁只提到一行然後你們在做這些基金的會議的時候預測的時候完全沒有這些考量在裡面我是希望你身為部長應該要把這些我們國際已經在重視的這個方向應該要把它放在裡面"},{"start":12458.902,"end":12467.803,"text":"好 謝謝委員 委員你的建議很好那我們會例如說你剛才講到森林攤會跟原民的部分我們會跟農業部跟原民會我們有一個平臺啦我們會來解決這個問題"},{"start":12468.717,"end":12494.631,"text":"对了 为了确保公正转型跟落实科学的治理本席还是希望环境不能够补齐的基础数据优先完成原住民土地生态服务价值跟冲击的评估在完成上述评估跟建立利益共享机制之前针对涉及原住民主土地的自主减量计划我觉得应该要暂缓核定以避免不可逆的权益损害"},{"start":12498.848,"end":12509.328,"text":"這個委員我們來研究一下但是我們認為是說在公正轉型裡面把原住民的權益放進去這個我們會把它放進去而且我們有便利一部分的經費來做這個事情"},{"start":12510.387,"end":12531.352,"text":"我另外一個少部分的時間跟你說上次我們有去過我們獅子鄉的西瓜園的種植還是在證明說我們屏東對環境的一些污染的一些落差第一次在你剛就任的時候我有提到馬家鄉的倉營的問題就是隔壁的畜牧場"},{"start":12532.112,"end":12546.417,"text":"那現在是種植西瓜園的部分也都是以蒼蠅為伍的這個環境那我是覺得到目前為止還沒有看到屏東縣政府很正向的去處理這個問題明明我們看到60%以上的那個"},{"start":12547.837,"end":12570.416,"text":"種植面積是非法種植的也就是說真正合理有租約權的是大概30幾%而已那我是覺得如果說縣政府遲遲不對這些事情來解決的話我覺得中央是不是應該適度的去關心或是說為什麼這個進度這麼慢因為民眾已經跟倡議維護60年了他們說他們能不能有一個喘息的空間"},{"start":12571.817,"end":12598.835,"text":"如果說他們30幾%是合法的那至少這個60幾%停止種植的話至少這個蒼蠅的數量會大大減少很多好 這個我們再來跟那個屏東縣環保局再來討論對 那我也希望說我們之前追在追的那個馬家鄉的這個法灣村的還有現在返山溪 豐港溪這個部分部落族人的生活的範圍裡面所受到的這些"},{"start":12599.755,"end":12625.796,"text":"蒼蠅的衝擊我是覺得身為部長你看看我們現在一直在說我們國家很進步然後現在的我們的很像是可以讓世人去挖墓像看的可是如果你讓一個遊客或者觀光客外國的人去那邊的話你會真的會你會覺得說這個這個環境根本就不像在台灣很像在菲律賓或是在印尼好 這個委員我會來加油我會來再盯緊好 那我們就繼續追蹤這些以上的問題謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":12630.033,"end":12631.715,"text":"謝謝盧縣議委員接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":12682.493,"end":12699.384,"text":"主席有請部長部長好這次這個花蓮縣馬太安溪淹社福這個因為潰壩一流造成"},{"start":12700.761,"end":12719.936,"text":"光復鄉鳳林鎮還有萬隆鄉的很多的一個社區部落嚴重的災情不僅僅是社區部落還包括包含很多的這個農田而這個跟環境部有關的部分以我們這個光復鄉的這個清潔隊也是這個損毀包含這個"},{"start":12728.595,"end":12753.717,"text":"它的垃圾場也都被沖毀被沖了之後當然就到這個相關的這些家屋或者是這些農田所以家屋的部分很多的志工這個去把它挖走了那現在留在的留在那個比較後面的這些比較"},{"start":12755.117,"end":12766.005,"text":"燕买比较多的这些房子或者是农田所以都是废弃物都是很多的废弃物我们看这个房子"},{"start":12767.847,"end":12784.181,"text":"很多的國軍或是志工或是相關的單位包括你們的環保單位把它清除了但是還留了很多的這些廢土而廢土裡面都有廢棄物所以這個部分就是這樣所以"},{"start":12787.355,"end":12813.572,"text":"这个按照废弃物清理法第八条的规定一因为天然灾害这个的情势自有自现有废弃物储存回收清除处理设施相关的这些污染环境就绝对会有污染环境相关的这些人体健康也都会有产生危害质疑中央主管机关应会同"},{"start":12814.412,"end":12833.418,"text":"中央墓地事業主管機關及有關機關來去處理當然中央主管機關廢棄物清理法的主管機關是環境部那中央墓地事業主管機關那可能就會涉及到以現在的這些廢土廢棄物的話大概"},{"start":12834.454,"end":12859.734,"text":"大部分在家屋附近或者是農田所以可能會跟農業部也有關係所以這個部分要請環境部要積極的處理我們剛看的這個照片是現在還存在的鄉親一直在問什麼時候挖走 什麼時候挖走"},{"start":12860.99,"end":12875.131,"text":"是這樣的一個情形所以這個部分這個環境部有什麼樣的報告委員那個我簡單回顧一下我們環境部是負責整個光復箱或是其他鳳林箱幾個這個廢棄物跟這個泥土"},{"start":12876.532,"end":12901.775,"text":"這個挖起來之後到這個站置場那個地方那這是我們在處理那如果這個垃圾這個掩埋場垃圾飄到農田上面那目前我們在這個前進指揮所協調所裡面規劃是農業部在主政那還有一個呢一些砂石掩蓋的這個農田也是農業部在主政的那我們分工是很明確那這個部分是由農業部來協助來清除完成這個部分我還是要回到這個條文"},{"start":12903.737,"end":12927.948,"text":"所以你們要去中央主管機關要去會同中央目的事業主管機關所以是不是能夠趕快協調他們趕快把他移走啊因為這個網路一直在傳啊什麼時候清掉啊什麼時候清掉什麼時候挖走啊是不是因為還沒有經費他如果是在農田上面的話那這個農業部在主政"},{"start":12929.154,"end":12949.886,"text":"農業部那如果說是一般的這樣算不算農田所以變成推來推去沒有推沒有推這個應該就是在農田如果是廢就是說房屋旁邊光復鄉野埋場飄出去農田的附近的那個田上面都是農田因為法律是說你要會同所以你們去協調好不好有協調好了因為"},{"start":12952.959,"end":12965.227,"text":"這個打錯了 就你們的經費啊特別預算裡面的辦理災後沙土混雜廢棄物辦理沙土混雜廢棄物所以這個部分"},{"start":12967.011,"end":12986.262,"text":"對所以他畢竟還是留到布加歐附近或者是這個農田這按照法律的話是你們要要去會同嗎所以趕快去協調可以嗎可以可以既然你們在這個整個災害應變的時候是"},{"start":12988.025,"end":13015.487,"text":"協調所裡面有去做分工但是人民不清楚所以裡面趕快去協調就是委員我再報告一下就是說在協調所的當中我們那個指揮官紀連城指揮官有在跟我們協調例如說在光復掩埋場飄出來的垃圾到農田附近那這個就是農業部主政然後如果土砂把這個農田掩蓋的大概600公頃剛剛那個大概10公頃另外一個是600公頃把那個農田蓋住的話"},{"start":13016.267,"end":13028.161,"text":"這兩個都是農業部在主政好 那個趕快去協調 好不好可以 好 謝謝好 謝謝政委 謝謝部長接下來請謝榮介委員來做詢問"},{"start":13044.73,"end":13046.051,"text":"你看這個影片喔這是兩個小時以前大概10點鐘的時候現場的影片台南市"},{"start":13070.546,"end":13092.151,"text":"那當時颱風來的時候這已經燒了幾天了那剛剛你們署長說全部控制住了早上在台南市議會消防局長說還要三天那你認為我們是應該再犧牲三天的空屋"},{"start":13094.205,"end":13114.85,"text":"還是現在把它撲滅那為什麼說要不要撲滅因為撲滅以後燃燒不完全還要再一次清潤早上市政府給議員的答覆是說原本的估計的清潤費用大概3到5億那現在把它燒光就省下了3到5億"},{"start":13116.314,"end":13140.657,"text":"你的看法如何不可能 這個是不可以用燒的這個是違反空污法的 不可以的你知道這裡面有混雜一些當時因為颱風破不得已也有一些石棉瓦有一些阿魯米有一些塑膠天花板還有營建廢棄物加上一些木頭廢棄就是樹木倒塌的全部都堆置在這裡"},{"start":13142.233,"end":13167.146,"text":"那以你的角度 中央的角度 如何來看待這 我跟你講 這是任何一個縣市都可能包括花蓮堆置的 都有可能會發生喔台南市是說 他們有請保全喔 在現場顧啦而且這個里長就之前一個多月前就已經有燒過 沒穩起來所以大家在懷疑 是不是調桿要燒的"},{"start":13169.315,"end":13187.034,"text":"你的看法如何 包委員不會啦這個這個燒東西這個影響到這個空污是不允許的絕對不可能是政府故意燒的那你認為現在就是只測到剩下消防隊只剩下一組就繼續有文他說這個深層"},{"start":13189.841,"end":13204.669,"text":"很深層啊繼續溫大概還要溫三天我也不要因為你剛才說的我有去這個廠看過他們環保局有分例如說實棉區然後這個營建的區然後樹木區都有分一重一重的"},{"start":13205.129,"end":13229.597,"text":"那我所了解的這燒的這塊是樹木因為台南的這個樹所以樹木可以燒不可以燒啊也不可以燒這個我相信可能是那你認為要不要建議台南市現在即刻把它撲滅那剩下該清運的還是清運該進紅化爐還是進紅化爐有沒有這種建議這個目前我們有編定這個特別條例的預算裡面他們大概有"},{"start":13230.377,"end":13256.25,"text":"3到5億左右 就是處理這一塊我知道嘛 所以現在3到5億省下來了嘛不可能省下來了 不可能燒成灰也要處理啊燒成灰那量就沒那麼多嘛不可能 這個還是要去處理好 那你建議是讓它繼續完全燃燒不可以 這個會影響到因為最近的這個天氣沒有下雨那是不是部長要做個建議啦"},{"start":13257.27,"end":13267.857,"text":"因為剛剛也台南市議會也剛執行結束嘛這是現場的影片這就是兩個小時以前的影片你如何建議"},{"start":13271.343,"end":13290.437,"text":"報告委員 台南為了撲滅這顆火已經協調自來水公司裝設臨時的消防水準所以它的效率變比較高我們正式建議它要把它撲滅正式建議所以是現在正式建議從開始我們態度就是應該儘速把它撲滅"},{"start":13296.681,"end":13302.944,"text":"所以市政府是不聽你的建議這很認真 因為這個量實在是十幾萬噸我知道十幾萬噸 可以撲滅不撲滅的話因為為什麼鄉親會這樣質疑因為不是第一次"},{"start":13312.563,"end":13330.78,"text":"那在這邊大家有提出警告好大家都很認真現在的現況就是這樣現在的現況就是這樣所以部長還是建議即刻撲滅要撲滅剩下我們再來善後處理你的補助款不會減少"},{"start":13332.609,"end":13343.977,"text":"不會吧不會 看因為已經燒掉60%了所以扣掉60%的補助款後面還是有灰還有各種的 不會全額還是按照原本的3到5億補助款"},{"start":13345.796,"end":13372.09,"text":"是不是我們還是依照那個實際花包的數額所以就不是這個3到5億的就是以到時候清運的實際金額這個不會影響到台南的財政等等之類的這個跟財政無所謂我們要的是一個態度那環境部現在正式建議台南市政府應該要即刻強力的"},{"start":13372.87,"end":13385.805,"text":"把這個火源撲滅 是不是是好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來請圖權紀委做詢問"},{"start":13398.602,"end":13426.413,"text":"好 謝謝主席請我們彭部長部長辛苦了部長好彭部長辛苦了感冒還要接受那麼多質詢部長 請問一下我們經濟部有說因為現在綠能的發展沒有達標那現在又因為他認為沒有達標的原因他要來修這個環評法"},{"start":13428.277,"end":13443.889,"text":"那我們來了解一下我們現在根據經濟部統計再生能源發電的結構我們看從105年到今年生殖能及廢棄物它的發電從28.3%降到12%可是當然太陽光電從8.7%增加到41.7%風力發電也從11.4%增加到28.8%"},{"start":13456.698,"end":13472.854,"text":"那從這個數據來看我們看起來再生能源發電的結構是不平衡的那當然就是針對光電跟風電它是一直在成長可是我們不了解說為什麼生殖能"},{"start":13473.795,"end":13495.015,"text":"廢棄物發電這個部分它是降低的那而且在行政院在2017年就有推出多元化垃圾處理計畫那當初也有規劃剩餘生殖能發電它那時候有講最少要有三座生殖能的發電廠可是目前喔"},{"start":13496.161,"end":13506.25,"text":"我們看到只有台中跟桃園兩座所以針對這部分應該再生能源發電應該針對生殖能電廠這部分是不是應該要來加強"},{"start":13507.893,"end":13530.986,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個其實這次的這個無溫的這個廚餘的處理就是我們其實一直要鼓勵這個生殖能但是我們所知道像桃園桃園那個案子他們把這個焚化爐弄在一起而且是用一個中心的方式讓大家可以理解其實這個生殖能的中心因為附近的居民很容易把它變成一個零幣設施所以推動起來很好但是就會常常遇到一些阻礙"},{"start":13532.734,"end":13541.689,"text":"可是照這樣來看其實生食能處理中心你看它又可以處理垃圾然後桃園這個又可以處理"},{"start":13542.583,"end":13571.031,"text":"熟廚魚熟廚魚他又因為用豔陽處理還可以發電那所以針對這部分應該炒著這部分我們行政院當初就有規劃多元化垃圾處理這一部分那目標應該要去達到應該像這個又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚魚然後又可以發電我們應該要炒這一方面去發展才對報告委員因為目前我所知道的是南投他已經有招標了然後另外一個是"},{"start":13571.912,"end":13578.283,"text":"台南也願意要蓋 高雄也願意要蓋所以其實目前很多的縣市他願意來蓋這些東西來解決廚藝的問題所以我們是鼓勵的"},{"start":13579.958,"end":13605.307,"text":"對啊 所以因為我們看我們今天提這個意思是說經濟部針對這個發電的部分因為他現在要修這個環評法我覺得說重點應該不能只通通放在光電跟風電上面那再生能源發電有很多的方式像我們剛剛提的生殖能源中心就是一個很好處理垃圾處理魚又可以發電那這部分"},{"start":13606.027,"end":13620.6,"text":"因為環評法的主管單位是環境部所以部長是不是應該有什麼建議其實這一次如果光電修的話我是覺得如果這個能夠在討論的過程當中有一些科學的討論甚至在本委員會"},{"start":13621.781,"end":13647.143,"text":"很好的辯論會更好但是這樣提了之後就會造成說整個再生能源因為我們現在變成全世界再生能源環評最嚴格的一個國家這個到底是不是很好的一個做法會不會影響到後續再生能源的發展這個都要觀察那我們等待這個經濟部能源署他們去算出來因為他們有口頭跟我說他們這個淨零的目標2030 2035恐怕都達不到他們有特別提醒我"},{"start":13647.603,"end":13672.618,"text":"那我還沒有接到他們的報告所以未來我們會跟他們再討論所以如果因應這個修法之後的衝擊我認為在再生能源以太陽能來說的話一定會非常大的所以我說今天提出這個部分就是說希望說我們再生能源真的不是只有光電只有風電像我們提這個生殖能中心發電廠就是一個非常好的方式而且加上"},{"start":13673.298,"end":13696.578,"text":"現在剛好有非洲豬瘟的問題那它又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚餘所以這個我覺得環境部也可以朝著這一方面提出一個好的建議我們其實為了因應豬瘟的廚餘未來有可能會不為豬我們要整個去化的能量要把它拉起來所以的確是有很多的縣市有告訴我們說他們有這個需求那也在這個規劃當中了"},{"start":13698.399,"end":13726.488,"text":"好 因為這個我們上個禮拜就是為了這個部分去考察我們桃園觀音生殖能處理中心那還有一個就是我們虹橋科技因為虹橋科技我才發現它是得過我們經濟部國家產業創新獎而且它好像是我們唯一能夠把這個廚餘完整回收處理它液體的部分處理完以後可以做豬的飼料"},{"start":13727.228,"end":13748.553,"text":"固體的部分可以做成我們有機肥料而且等於說廚餘它可以百分之百的做這循環經濟 百分之百的處理這部分部長了解嗎了解 我們很鼓勵這樣的堆肥廠能夠興建不過其實這個有些縣市想要蓋但是也會遇到附近居民的抗爭所以這個溝通還是一個大問題對 可是我們發現"},{"start":13752.134,"end":13767.249,"text":"它占地小 處理量能大你看我們那去我們才了解那齊大立委說怎麼有這麼好的技術它才800平方公尺一天可以處理100噸以上的廚餘甚至他說其實可以處理更多"},{"start":13768.15,"end":13787.02,"text":"所以像这么好的技术我们也发现连很多其他的国外的业者通通都来台湾来这边来考察所以我说奇怪台湾自己有这么好的技术怎么不去好好推广可以完善的把这个厨艺全部完整的处理"},{"start":13787.935,"end":13816.485,"text":"有 這個部分很多的縣市都願意來興建這樣的措施已經在進行當中了那我們是希望他們一兩年內可以把這個量能夠起來不是只有靠焚化而已好 所以我是建議不要到時候台灣的技術結果國外的推廣做得比我們好結果我們台灣好的技術都沒有好好去把它好好的去發揮尤其剛好我說現在剛好這個非洲是非洲豬瘟的問題應該可以好好的來研議可以 這個我們會來做"},{"start":13818.188,"end":13845.496,"text":"好 那還有現在針對我們IMO的部分那據我們了解我們收取碳費的中央政府機關是環境部那在規定氣候變遷因應法中也有規定那我們國際海事組織IMO現在早就有計畫要收碳費那我們想說IMO這個通過之後"},{"start":13846.932,"end":13874.68,"text":"收取碳費 我們交通部 航港局預計也有要跟進那以後這個費用是交通部收還是環境部來收報告委員 這個還沒有研議因為IMO我知道川普是公開反對的所以這個因為美國是最大的航運的一個進出口的國家所以這件事情還沒有我們部會還沒有開始在討論當中我們會看未來的進展"},{"start":13875.909,"end":13880.59,"text":"對啊 因為據我們了解這個碳費收取是環境部"},{"start":13882.219,"end":13910.588,"text":"沒有 這是歐盟的碳稅歐盟的CBAN 歐盟的碳關稅所以這個制度還沒有像CBAN這麼的完善所以都還在討論當中還沒有這個結果我們會留下注意所以針對目前我們當然我們碳費收取還是環境部所以IMO的部分還沒有做實際的討論還沒有 還沒有到那個階段那如果它這個通過的話到底如果這個通過會有可能是交通部來收這個錢嗎"},{"start":13912.122,"end":13934.411,"text":"這個還沒有討論例如說好無舉例船到臺灣他也會排放空污在臺灣海峽那我們是不是以後要收空污費這個我們也在討論這個話題當中或是說他進到這個我們的港他用到我們的岸電那我們是要收他一些費用所以這個部分都還在我們會看這個IMO他未來的發展他的這個法規法制化的這個程度而定"},{"start":13935.151,"end":13959.42,"text":"因為我們看這個船舶它是屬於碳排高的部分所以到時候它是高碳排的部分可能對於我們整個空污也會很大的影響那當然就像部長講的你說因為現在還不確定所以還沒有進入討論還沒有 好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請林淑雯委員來做詢問"},{"start":13967.055,"end":13991.56,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請我們這個彭部長部長今天很多的立委質詢到關於台南後壁丹拉斯風災之後的這個烏樹林戰事場的火災這種狀況戰事場無人看守然後你們的那個廢木堆這個廢木材啦還有"},{"start":13992.643,"end":14017.159,"text":"還有這個什麼還有土石還有垃圾垃圾還有石棉瓦石棉瓦還有營建廢棄物對四種四種堆積如山現在大火燒了幾座山來來土石不會燒嘛垃圾那邊燒起來了還有廢木材也燒起來了石棉瓦也燒起來了石棉瓦不會燒石棉瓦不會燒好"},{"start":14018.888,"end":14033.086,"text":"那你們剛剛這樣子一直聽下來大家講說火災的原因歸咎於早氣自然天氣乾燥還有其他原因嗎應該就是這些原因"},{"start":14033.977,"end":14057.495,"text":"講了這些好像是不可抗力的自然現象但是我今天要跟你講這個就是從科學的角度跟我一直跟你講過的災害廢棄物佔置場管理的問題來講從科學的角度來看這完全不是不可抗力的自然現象這絕對是政府管理失當的結果"},{"start":14059.689,"end":14077.711,"text":"災後大家都知道災後的災害廢棄物這個佔滯特別是風災之後的斷肢殘業受潮加劇的堆製大家都知道這樣的堆製最後一定會有劇烈的微生物作用台灣目前的做法你們的做法"},{"start":14078.251,"end":14097.205,"text":"就是沒有任何的管理我跟你質詢很久講災後廢棄物嘛你們說你們要去討論嗎可是到現在你們也沒有任何的作業的指導出來你們現在都政府都中央沒有任何的指導指引然後地方政府沒有任何的管理就是盡量堆"},{"start":14097.865,"end":14117.01,"text":"堆得越高越好因為平面空間有限找得到的容納場地太少所以盡量堆 堆到盡量塞 盡量滿可是你們完全忽略了物理跟化學的極限這簡直是在各個地方堆置大型的生化炸彈為什麼呢"},{"start":14118.61,"end":14142.989,"text":"你們就一直堆可是你知道耗氧發酵跟豔氧發酵並存你上面的堆製在表層是耗氧這個分解產生熱量可是在底層的因為缺氧進行了豔氧分解一定勢必會產生早氣再來講蓄熱效應當堆製的高度過高你們這個堆製最高幾米這個應該有到十幾米左右"},{"start":14146.986,"end":14164.845,"text":"20米 20米所以在這裡是堆到四層樓 五層 六層樓 七層樓高堆那麼高 它內部的熱量無法散發溫度會持續飆升 蓄熱效應第三 自然點"},{"start":14166.426,"end":14190.034,"text":"當內部的溫度超過80度C甚至更高而且甲烷的濃度達高到爆炸的下陷一旦接觸到空氣或因為塌陷產生火花就會瞬間的引爆就一定勢必會燒起來所以我們你會覺得說就是這樣子堆啊保庭有感覺就是這樣就這樣子堆嗎 是嗎"},{"start":14192.867,"end":14206.917,"text":"這個包委員我有去看過一些國家的最近去看的其實他們都有一定的處理的做法而且我也觀察到不會臭不會臭然後而且他復土的程序都做得很完整我知道災禍廢棄物是很臨時的"},{"start":14209.259,"end":14225.931,"text":"但是我們從制度面整個政府從過去到現在從來沒有在災害的基礎上學到教訓不斷的累積教訓然後得到一套指引和方法我現在跟你講日本環境省發布的災害廢棄物的對策指引我也跟你講過了"},{"start":14227.092,"end":14237.639,"text":"災害廢棄物的對策指針針對臨時堆置場人家制定了非常細緻的技術規範這個指引的核心精神像在這個災害廢棄物他就講不是怎麼堆而他的核心精神就是要防止它怎麼防止它燒起來"},{"start":14248.425,"end":14267.693,"text":"所以也只去研究日本環境省的技術文件台灣 你們都沒有去研究台灣政府 我跟你們講了幾個月了也沒有去看 也沒有研究阿蘇丁你有看嗎 你有研究嗎台灣跟日本避開我們缺少的三大關鍵管理技術是什麼"},{"start":14269.4,"end":14294.185,"text":"你有去看那份指引嗎 你就不知道 不知道我就跟你講啊在這個指引上就跟你講啊 叫你去看 要看嗎委員我們現在有內部在座討論討論了什麼就是我們會訂定我們的災害護照我現在說台灣缺少的跟日本這個管理指引缺少了三大關鍵的管理技術是什麼 你有沒有想法"},{"start":14297.037,"end":14320.971,"text":"呃 請委員指導你都沒有啦 你說太多就沒記住了委員你上次跟我說了之後 我有交代他們我們要開始去研議這個東西如果有去研議這麼長久了不看就不看啊我告訴你 我直接告訴你日本的指引明確的指出為了防止火災 佔置場的堆置必須遵守物理極限不能夠因為垃圾多就無限的堆高"},{"start":14321.972,"end":14347.566,"text":"他們的精神就是怎麼防止它燒起來那你就要去檢視第一個高度的限制日本可燃性廢棄物的堆置高度嚴格限制在幾公尺以下 你知道嗎蘇丁你知道嗎 柏丁不知道這是藍面的蘇丁你知道日本嚴格限制在堆置幾公尺以下嗎我們一般的堆置是在五公尺日本就是說五公尺"},{"start":14348.208,"end":14371.4,"text":"如果沒有經過破碎的修繭樹枝甚至建議要低到3公尺理想值是2公尺科學的理由是因為超過5公尺堆體內部會發熱速度將大於表面的散熱速度導致熱量急劇的升高累積蓄熱那台灣的現況你們這個烏樹林占智場"},{"start":14374.901,"end":14391.527,"text":"20米20公尺六七層樓高新峰也埋藏的堆積也是在這種高度的熱力學上注定必然一定會發生自然這個不是意外不是不可抗拒的不是是必然的"},{"start":14393.267,"end":14406.696,"text":"這是管理的問題啊第二個這個物理的極限第二個面積跟體積的極限日本規範單一一塊區塊的底面積不得超過200平方公尺大概60幾平"},{"start":14408.357,"end":14429.746,"text":"而且單一堆體的體積要控制在2000立方公尺以內原因是因為限制燃燒的量體確保火災萬一真的發生了消防的水柱要可以立刻噴灑到堆體的中心而且怪手可以在短時間內將火源挖出你看你們這幾天剛才洩露的那些硬品觸目驚心"},{"start":14436.704,"end":14462.178,"text":"台灣的現象就是整片連綿不斷的垃圾長城一旦燒起來根本沒有辦法斷絕火路沒有 你們毫無規範這個絕對不是不可抗拒的自然現象這個是人為不當的管理因為政府毫無管理的機制 毫無管理"},{"start":14463.078,"end":14469.723,"text":"第三 這個在物理的極限裡面還有一個叫距離原則日本規範一堆和一堆之間要保留兩公尺以上的防火區隔理由就是防止輻射熱導致火勢跳燒並作為緊急時重機具的作業通道和消防車的行進路線而台灣呢 你看這個台南火災堆置 堆置那麼滿"},{"start":14490.339,"end":14506.231,"text":"消防車只能在遠遠的噴水也噴不到中心 堆點的中心然後那麼高也噴不到下面怪手也沒辦法進去開闢防火巷這個完全缺乏隔離距離的這個後果所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":14508.719,"end":14515.663,"text":"這個還是物理上的限制日本還怎麼做主動式的監測和排氣的機制戰智場喔平平都是災害廢棄物的戰智場而已喔他們在氣體排放在早氣的監測和排放他們怎麼規定呢日本規定在堆體的中間要先預埋塞多孔管像瓦斯透氣管"},{"start":14534.774,"end":14543.132,"text":"讓內部的甲烷和發酵的熱氣能夠導出避免累積達到這個爆炸的下限我們都沒辦法 什麼沒辦法"},{"start":14546.581,"end":14575.78,"text":"因為沒有規範中央沒有指引地方也不用做溫度的監測日本必須在管理單位必須定期測量堆體深層的溫度他的指引特別提到堆體深層的溫度往往比氣溫滯後一兩個月才達到高峰所以他會到10月才會反映到8月的熱度他會往後遞延"},{"start":14576.821,"end":14600.051,"text":"所以必須要長期監測如果測得到一氧化碳的濃度超過10ppmv就視為是內部悶燒的危險訊號我們台灣做什麼 什麼都沒做然後等到冒煙燒起來 聞到臭味然後再來處理所以台灣這個方法有弄好嗎完全 完全落後太多"},{"start":14601.178,"end":14627.685,"text":"那他們日本在於這個預防火災的熱跟氣上面他還有第三個做法他們一旦監測到溫度異常的升高就馬上要出動重機具去翻堆將內部熱料翻出散熱而且他們指引建議數個禮拜至少要翻堆一次不可以長期靜置你這個地方要靜置多久你剛剛講明年才會解決對吧"},{"start":14630.426,"end":14640.998,"text":"這樣子也沒有翻堆你對照日本就知道說我們真的是落後太多更不要講我上一次的質詢已經講過的他們這個指引是在未以籌謀防範還沒發生的時候各個地方就要預先選址"},{"start":14649.628,"end":14674.065,"text":"日本要求市挺村在平時就必須依照這個災害廢棄物的處理計畫選定候選的用地包括要遠離住宅區 地址要穩固具備防止地下水污染設施蛤 蛤 阿爛咧 咱現在只有具備防止污染地下水設施的設備嗎有布設防水布嗎 有沒有"},{"start":14679.068,"end":14695.772,"text":"前端要分類 進入戰制場以前必須區分成金屬 電氣 電池 瓦斯罐和可燃廢氣物這種都要分開因為你電池 瓦斯罐 廢氣的電氣可能都會引燃周邊的木材或塑膠"},{"start":14697.253,"end":14722.685,"text":"我們其實都混在一起啦雖然你們說這個石棉一堆廢棄土石方一堆這比較容易看得到但垃圾廢棄樹枝尤其是垃圾垃圾上面有沒有電池有沒有不知道有沒有分類沒有所以把這種潛在的火種電池啦打火機啦跟燃料枯枝啦泡棉啦垃圾打包在一起風險就是這麼高"},{"start":14724.252,"end":14748.658,"text":"所以我們在這裡我真的是語重心長全台灣一共有幾處的災害廢棄物佔據場正在運作部長大概災害廢棄物災害廢棄物現在台南有幾座幾座台南有三座吧三座蘇町自己都不知道 寶町真的不知道花蓮有兩座"},{"start":14751.747,"end":14752.889,"text":"這一年來風災後 新啟用的戰製廠有幾處"},{"start":14758.137,"end":14767.019,"text":"也不知道 你看什麼都不知道那個您說的其實上次前兩次質詢我都有聽在這個裡面我問這個最簡單 你書長要知道戰智場有幾位你也不知道災害廢棄物現在戰智正在運作的有幾個場子你不知道書長你很漏氣這關書長有夠急嗎我好像很不講話 還沒也沒好"},{"start":14784.093,"end":14801.929,"text":"目前對製的物品品的類別比例怎麼用就是說純風災的這個倒木還是有多少民生垃圾還是有多少的營建土石方的廢棄物比例是怎麼樣每一個站置場比例是怎麼樣比例要怎麼樣才能知道說這個整個預防火燒起來啊"},{"start":14811.227,"end":14830.72,"text":"有多少場子具備了防止地下水污染的阻隔設施有沒有 全部都沒有 完全都沒有 是不是全部都沒有有多少場子有這個溫度監測的機制全部都沒有 完全都沒有 暫置的都沒有不是暫置的就有嗎"},{"start":14835.122,"end":14856.677,"text":"那現在日本環境省明確規定規範高度戰制的高度5公尺間隔2公尺你有沒有辦法好這樣講好了有沒有辦法在最短的時間裡面你們可以制定出一個台灣版的災害廢棄物戰制場的防災安全指引有沒有可能一個月"},{"start":14863.976,"end":14893.539,"text":"包委員 那個因為我們是進行中我們是不是兩個月之內把它訂出來好 災害廢棄物 戰事場 防災安全指引那要把下列的項目列為強制查核項目第一堆置高度的上限5公尺強制防火間隔距離2公尺定期每週深層溫度監測如果地方政府違反指引導致火災中央是否有相對應的懲處或補助扣減的機制也要去研議 可以嗎"},{"start":14894.445,"end":14922.247,"text":"可以好 接下來跟部長講說因為你說我諮詢了你們去看看了以後沒有訂出來也是不好所以災害廢棄物我們的處理絕對不能夠繼續抱著且戰且走的心態應該要去積極的參考日本的災害廢棄物的對策指引而且長期要研議要去擬定災害廢棄物戰制設置和管理的技術規範"},{"start":14923.908,"end":14940.382,"text":"不能夠再這樣子永遠萬年的以不變應萬變就讓它稍稍的就剛好先廢棄不用處理不用再進焚化爐直接入不用再勞煩焚化爐了啦直接入天焚燒啦我也懷疑說你是不是天天要這樣讓它稍稍的都不用再改變是不是這樣比較方便是不是這樣"},{"start":14948.903,"end":14955.875,"text":"把廢棄物 堆置到這個等排隊進焚化爐還要花一年的時間這張來修 修一半以上都不用進焚化爐這樣是不是比較方便"},{"start":14960.694,"end":14970.282,"text":"不會啦 不會這樣做我哪有這種感覺的感覺沒有啦沒有啦希望沒有啦我們會來改進啦好 我說的長期災害廢棄物戰車場設置和管理技術規格半年內你出來兩個月內災害廢棄物戰車場的防災安全指引兩個月內訂出來"},{"start":14981.511,"end":15004.953,"text":"因為我知道日本常常遇到大型的例如說地震的災害廢棄物的處理我們會再來評估說實際上去了解說他們到底怎麼做的因為有時候日本寫的跟他們不是只有地震型的他們也有很多複合式的他們複合式的而我們剛好恰巧今年未來極端氣候下未來不知道"},{"start":15005.794,"end":15027.685,"text":"就剛好這麼嚴重這麼多然後需要這麼多的戰智場而我們的戰智場連一個防水這個不要污染地下水的這個基本設施都沒有更不要講其他的這個災害還為了戰智引起其他更大的環境災害這樣子是不對的所以兩個月跟六個月啊好 謝謝接下來請武力法院來做詢問"},{"start":15043.443,"end":15063.54,"text":"謝謝主席 再次有請部長部長去年您上任以來我透過您的臉書實際上我也有跟過你一起去關心我們原鄉的資源回收廠"},{"start":15065.321,"end":15081.248,"text":"其中在1月12號也就是今年的年初因為我自己是來自馬家鄉因為我們鄉公所我們從這個照片中您也有親自去您可以看得到他們有幾個問題第一個就是"},{"start":15082.208,"end":15104.551,"text":"他們的這些資源回收的垃圾爆量那您當天有看到 有兩層樓那麼高那另外呢 這個也是原鄉普遍的一個現象就是我們要等資源回收車很久原因是什麼 因為幅員遼闊所以經常收收收 哇 滿了"},{"start":15106.172,"end":15129.039,"text":"他又要再回去再過來所以也變成大家在等候這個垃圾車的時間就是不確定性很高因為我們有很獨特的一個地理環境的一些劣勢所以很多的原鄉都很期待能夠有垃圾車能夠有資源回收車"},{"start":15130.279,"end":15147.144,"text":"可是部長我當然也要謝謝您因為我上個月10月27號我才剛去台東的鹽坪鄉因為當時前幾年他們有爭取想要有個好的資源回收場但是它的規模我們都說是環保園區因為會給他們作業廠房"},{"start":15150.865,"end":15154.566,"text":"然後呢也會有洗車台設備的機房有地棒天車吊車等等他們非常的高興我想很多的原鄉應該都很需要那在這裡可是我看到我特別來所知110年到114年原鄉申請垃圾車跟核定的狀況您看看"},{"start":15175.25,"end":15203.816,"text":"僅核定率是39% 4成不到如果以今年來看的話他的核定率更是一成不到7%我之所以會來這個地方質詢是因為地方有陳情那我之所以又來這個地方質詢是因為他們的陳情一直看不到結果好的結果所以我想請教一下部長您的看法"},{"start":15207.028,"end":15228.858,"text":"包委員 我們垃圾車確實需求的比較多我們的經費比較少一點所以它有一定的條件譬如說它要15年以上然後20萬公里等等之類的要求這些會優先把它做太亂這個就是重點了"},{"start":15232.399,"end":15248.565,"text":"為什麼 我剛剛一直強調原鄉有它獨特的地理環境條件不一樣服務員遼闊 那個車子要跑我以前諮詢有講過 很陡有時候那個廚餘桶還會流支出來"},{"start":15250.211,"end":15263.505,"text":"所以我才會講說要針對原鄉不同的環境去訂定不同的條件讓我們原鄉的這個垃圾的問題可以被解決所以到底有沒有這樣的思維我們應該要有這樣的思維啊"},{"start":15266.485,"end":15284.395,"text":"報告委員 這一個原鄉車子消磨也很恐怖對 原鄉跟濱海地區我們另訂有比較宽的規定就是說它如果是相當陡的或者是濱海地區易腐蝕的這個部分可以縮短它的年限那什麼時候可以看到這個"},{"start":15285.49,"end":15308.587,"text":"不過這個我們如果有這種狀況我們會去現場請同仁看一下是不是他操作或保養的狀況我們去輔導如果真的這車子不能再使用我們會給他們做一個補助署長110年到114年核定率39%今年度核定率7%所以我不希望一拖再拖"},{"start":15310.089,"end":15328.232,"text":"這個問題要正視 因為我們是為國家 我們是為地球我希望 如果這是政府很重要的政策目標不夠錢就編錢啊博巴委員 因為那個明年財化法過後這個我們的 明年的這個預算幾乎是零了"},{"start":15329.108,"end":15355.112,"text":"所以部長要把我們的困難要講出來我們要請我們的行政院支持那這個部分其實是人民會成為我們的底氣我們背後支持的力量我希望我們很快的可以看到那我也希望大概兩週後可以給我回覆意見好不好因為這今年的大概就原來的量比較少"},{"start":15355.532,"end":15374.067,"text":"那明年的這個財化法過後這個垃圾的處理都是屬於地方的事務所以我們在這個編列預算裡面明年真的沒有這樣的預算了我們就是要想辦法啊因為很重要啊我們的政府如果因為很重要的一件事就說沒有錢"},{"start":15376.128,"end":15402.095,"text":"這個老百姓聽不下去所以我還是希望我們可以來檢討可以來討論也給我一個回覆好嗎那不好意思主席我其實有兩題另外一個問題就關於廚餘那因為時間的關係我也快速的來問當然我們知道廚餘禁止養豬的政策我們不知道會不會成為長期的方向那我其實是很想聽聽看你可不可以簡單的回答"},{"start":15402.735,"end":15426.523,"text":"現在我們這個禮拜我們跟農業部已經溝通好一個意見大概有好幾個方案這個禮拜會內部再協商然後在行政院的部分再協商如果我們希望趕快看這禮拜或下禮拜趕快對外宣布因為有太多的不一樣的利害團體給我們一些想法例如說雖然說大家覺得說禁養廚藝是一個趨勢可是也有一些黑豬的業者說"},{"start":15427.583,"end":15444.729,"text":"一定要有然後因為是從戰略的考量因為廚餘畢竟它是一個資源循環那有的可以有共同徵組那有的是覺得說是不是還有一些更好的方式能夠來處理所以現在每個縣市都不一樣所以我們現在正在彙整當中那我其實"},{"start":15446.48,"end":15473.838,"text":"覺得無論如何從源頭減量絕對是重要的所以呢我們也看到有兩個養豬大縣雲林屏東他們地方政府是有在補助那個廚餘機啦但是我想講的是說你看這個雲林補助上限兩成屏東補助上限四成我常常覺得被詬病政府就是補助的思維就是很喜歡說補助幾成幾成"},{"start":15476.34,"end":15501.328,"text":"可是你這樣子補助的時候一點意義都沒有因為只有中產階級他才會去做這件事他沒有辦法被普遍的接受其實很多人很想但是你這樣的補助模式他就做不到那況且我們說如果中央可以來全面的來協助這個很重要為什麼因為非洲豬瘟的發生他不是那個豬場啊"},{"start":15502.828,"end":15526.318,"text":"我們是大家一同的都是受災戶啊這個對我們整個國家的整體的影響是很嚴重的我們並不是說在哪一個縣哪一個豬場發生所以我覺得這個中央來做我是今天是希望部長因為時間的關係我是很希望啦如果有一些事情真的是攸關全國人民的"},{"start":15526.778,"end":15530.001,"text":"經濟也好 安全也好我覺得就應該要提出這樣的一個政策思維我們怎麼樣全民來落實另外我們最近原鄉那個糞尿的那個造成那個什麼西瓜蚊子滿天飛所以我特別想要請教就是現在大家都在幫忙找方法"},{"start":15548.298,"end":15569.727,"text":"過去改變人類世界蜜蜂農業產寶寶人類的紡織業現在說黑水盟也會改變我們未來的世界所以我相信部長您一定在這個方面應該了解很多而且可以成為一個循環經濟那它也可以讓我們可以養雞 養蛋"},{"start":15572.788,"end":15591.275,"text":"我知道的是你們很支持但是我都沒有看到相關的預算而且這個黑水盟他被使用的管署才其他裡面的1.9%所以黑水盟竟然已經成為主要的政策目標方向我不知道你們未來有沒有想要提出積極的計畫"},{"start":15592.615,"end":15600.579,"text":"我們目前有一個計畫在整合支持當中那部長我為我原鄉爭取一個啦我是希望說我們原鄉給我們有沒有可能給我們一個事辦計畫我們原鄉很適合養雞呀也很適合需要這樣的一個廚餘的那個處理方式可不可以選定一個地方給我們原鄉一個事辦計畫嘛以後全國可以來觀摩"},{"start":15616.246,"end":15633.046,"text":"OK 好 我們請我們徐安署來規劃一下這樣的內容好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請陳培委員陳培委員陳培委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請戴思寶委員戴思寶委員戴思寶委員不在請葉圓芝委員"},{"start":15645.051,"end":15672.082,"text":"主席好 麻煩請環境部長來 部長葉維好部長好 我們先來關心一下高雄垃圾山事情因為那一個廠商原本是民進黨里長後來被開除黨籍就是連民進黨都覺得他做了一些很違反黨域的事情那他是4年有13次違規的堆置然後他堆置的廢棄物還引發兩次火災但是他卻可以一直營業"},{"start":15673.146,"end":15685.231,"text":"然後他被裁罰了總共六七萬居然十萬塊錢賴皮不繳我問一下當然部長你會說這是高雄市政府的事情但是你作為一個最高的環境的主管機關你覺得看到這樣的事情你覺得會不會很離譜"},{"start":15686.612,"end":15714.563,"text":"這當然離譜啊這個但是我們還是要依法行政啦然後我會再了解一下他為什麼不叫你覺得很離譜嘛然後依法行政就代表說現在的法好像已經沒有辦法符合現狀了嘛那中央就應該從制度性的做一些改變啦我們有要修廢清法好那現在喔這一個案件大家覺得誇張的是他的模式是這樣啦就是他租了一個鐵皮屋廠房嘛然後當作垃圾的站置區然後趁大家不注意的時候又把垃圾偷盜到越視界嘛是這樣嘛"},{"start":15715.373,"end":15726.957,"text":"那這其實也凸顯一個管理上的問題其實這應該是全國性的問題就是說他們去申請那個執照很容易然後申請執照然後這個不換的違規又說沒有關係可以繼續的營業"},{"start":15728.959,"end":15756.634,"text":"然後罰單案可以不繳然後所以還可以隨便找什麼轉運站然後隨便找一個轉運站就可以堆置垃圾然後再找機會去偷盜然後他去挑全國各縣市哪個縣市管理比較鬆當然你會說那高雄管理比較鬆這不是中央的問題那高雄鬆不鬆那就是高雄的問題但是在制度上一定是可以改變否則的話為什麼會出現這個情況所以您說要修廢清法修了之後就可以改善嗎"},{"start":15757.154,"end":15782.868,"text":"第一個是加重刑責第二個是我們會透過智慧維力的方式明年開始會啟動像這樣的話會抓得更快現在等於是說要有一個時間差要去看那對於這種那對於這個清運業者 清除業者因為他申請執照很容易嘛然後他到底這些垃圾去哪裡感覺上好像一開始沒有辦法防避嘛你現在都是事後嘛就是他偷盜之後嘛我現在講的是在事先的管理面"},{"start":15783.744,"end":15797.903,"text":"管裡面的話當然就要對這些清除業者要加強他的這個管控那你剛才講過他的罰則並沒有很好的不是罰則 罰則是事後啦我是講說因為其實本來制度上就有一些事前的管制比如說GPS啊或者是各種"},{"start":15798.993,"end":15822.66,"text":"做法但現在看起來看起來沒有用所以我覺得環境部是不是可以討論一下就這些清除業者的管制上不能讓他這樣子隨便偷到因為現在包含了最近的廚餘也需要已清的業者來清理那當然已清的業者只有清除業者我們必須也要再重新一些思考能夠能不能更有效的管理這個是第一個問題就是我覺得不能都推給高雄"},{"start":15823.4,"end":15849.924,"text":"因為當然高雄最近問題很多這不是我們今天在立法院要講啦但是中央應該是要站在一個制度面看看跟地方討論一下說現在的管理到底出了什麼問題明明機制在那邊就是會有那麼多不但漏洞不過還是就是想做壞事的人他就偷雞摸狗做這些事情這是我們一定要但是我剛舉的那個案例你都覺得很誇張啊十三次違規然後兩次火災然後還可以繼續營業這真的很奇怪啦"},{"start":15850.504,"end":15878.632,"text":"那第二就是台南現在垃圾山火災的事情相信部長你也都很清楚嘛剛剛很多人在問那我首先我有兩個問題第一個這個事情因為火災的地方是一個原本的軍營嘛是環保局借來非製風災的佔置物然後引發火災那事後裁罰的話如果找不到到底是誰縱火的話搞不好自燃還是怎麼樣我不知道你有掌握火災發生原因嗎目前這還在調查中那到時候如果"},{"start":15880.848,"end":15910.405,"text":"找不到調查找不到火災的發生原因的話他就是處罰行為就是處罰就是可以規則的行為人就是台南市環保局啊環保局要自己開罰自己那求援兼裁判那這個部分環境部要怎麼去監督呢這個以前有太多這樣的案例了要自己罰自己那自己罰自己當然就罰最輕啊因為台南市那個環保局以前在110年的時候也發生類似的案子啊後來就罰幾千塊啊那環境部都沒有角色"},{"start":15911.975,"end":15935.829,"text":"這個是屬於罰者完全沒有角色當然我們自己罰自己罰個最輕然後還累犯然後這個環境部都也不關心然後也沒有角色不會啦報告委員這個是一個意外啦意外發生我們當然不希望他可以發生那所以我們未來會對於這種所謂的這種戰志的這個場我們是不是來做一個通盤的檢討要不要更好的規範這是我們未來要做的那現在總共類似這種戰志場多少"},{"start":15938.269,"end":15947.803,"text":"這個有一個叫野埋場那這個戰智場台南我記得這次是風災後特殊的意外有三個全國多少那嘉義的應該清掉了你有沒有回答"},{"start":15949.453,"end":15971.767,"text":"因為這個戰智場有的就是我們的規劃說都是放在掩埋場裡面戰智所以如果真的是放在外面我們這裡的資料大概是七個七個因為風災之後去戰智七個台南這是其中一個台南本身就有三個那你們對於戰智場管理是怎麼樣"},{"start":15972.862,"end":15987.857,"text":"目前因為他站置的時間原來規劃的不是太長那所以就是怕去化太慢了嗎就是有一些警衛在那裡看這個環境部也要有一個監督的機制不然放在那邊如果不是發生火災搞不好"},{"start":15988.562,"end":16008.36,"text":"就在那邊堆在那邊天荒地老所以這個管理的問題啦好不好再加強一下好像部長是太辛苦了所以感冒是不是我最後一個問因為我看到這個台南的火災事件之後附近的居民很憂心啊就問一個問題就是說裡面有沒有被丟石棉瓦"},{"start":16009.857,"end":16030.778,"text":"那個我剛剛他們那個有查證明是沒有石棉瓦沒有石棉瓦其他的有啦所以網友可以那石棉瓦就是風災這個有很多屋頂啊什麼被摧毀了你石棉瓦你分離是不是你把石棉瓦拿到另外一個地方去堆置是不是石棉瓦有特別堆置的不是你們有做這個分離的動作是不是有有有"},{"start":16032.519,"end":16057.228,"text":"沒有 那網友比較放心但是實棉網大家會特別問是因為實棉它實棉網完整是沒問題但是它如果破裂的話就會引發大家可以看到就是很多癌症的問題實棉纖維嘛吸進去然後實棉其實它你們在處理這個也有一個我覺得有一個問題跟剛剛我們討論差不多就是它現在你沒辦法焚化嘛對不對你現在是要用什麼方式去去化"},{"start":16057.988,"end":16081.69,"text":"他首先第一個是要把它破碎固化掩埋啦要把它固化掩埋只能夠掩埋那掩埋是最終處理方式嗎請問一下我們現在有幾個實棉的最終處理的掩埋廠有三個廠因為我們可以看一下現在環境部要做這個事情的時候我覺得他"},{"start":16082.928,"end":16103.697,"text":"因為風災的關係 像譬如說以台南來講的話它就有54709棟當然不是每一個都有遇到風災 有破損啦但是它產生的量一定會增加嘛一定會增加 全台灣是24萬棟那有一個數據 其實看得非常清楚就是之前環境部說要解決失眠這個問題的時候因為那時候沒有發生風災 112年所以處理的量就是少"},{"start":16107.88,"end":16129.577,"text":"113年開始就開始變多114年因為這個數據統計到七月底所以比較少我相信如果統計到今年底的話因為有遇到七月以後的風災一定大量可是大家現在就會懷疑說我們到底有沒有足夠的量可以去處理這些失眠像您剛剛講有三個掩埋場那個量夠嗎"},{"start":16131.406,"end":16158.358,"text":"因為第一個我們現在50萬噸50萬噸是沒有壞的然後現在這次大概壞了一兩萬噸左右那一兩萬噸去處理這個是沒有問題然後每年有一個固定去化的量我們預估是沒有問題你確定沒有問題沒有問題那我們現在正在研發這種所謂的熱處理的方式把它化學把它的體積變小所以目前也正在研發當中我們希望未來沒有問題那你在追蹤處理之前你也是用站置對不對"},{"start":16159.919,"end":16183.079,"text":"呃他在十年戰志嗎十秒站好那請問一下十年專屬於十年戰志場全國有幾個呃現在大量的就是在晨曦然後大多數大概幾個請請這個十年的處理的最終場會直接發生了後他馬上就運走所以其實有一個流程在那邊好那那如果是戰志的話會不會出現台南火燒垃圾山的狀況呃十年就是"},{"start":16184.111,"end":16208.381,"text":"隔熱不可燃防火啊所以才那麼大家會喜歡用或者是說其他的對環境破壞的方式會不會不會不會他其實就用太空包包在那個地方然後就有侵略者來把他運走好那因為因為實名大家很關心啊所以我覺得不會不會好謝謝好謝謝接下來請張雅玲委員張雅玲委員張雅玲委員不在請陳議員來做選擇"},{"start":16220.922,"end":16221.644,"text":"麻煩請彭部長委員好"},{"start":16229.338,"end":16250.704,"text":"部長好多保重我們今天針對環境部的業務報告有發現你們這次的報告呢有減少使用了專業比較減少使用很多的這個專業術語跟這個冷冰冰的科學數據那因此要給你們肯定"},{"start":16251.465,"end":16272.636,"text":"然後因為我們來未還委員會是要溝通的而不是說要讓你們來這裡賣弄專業然後講一大堆專有名詞去粉飾一些問題那我們在這邊透過討論都是為了共同讓台灣有更好的環境資源跟永續發展我相信部長應該很認同這一點對 謝謝"},{"start":16274.666,"end":16280.436,"text":"針對這次的報告唯一比較晚提供的是巴西貝倫舉行的聯合國氣候變化大會"},{"start":16286.343,"end":16309.537,"text":"那這次大會被外界解讀幾乎是原住民的文化博覽會許多自然資源豐沛族群多元的國家都選擇以這個我們原住民文化作為展館的亮點那會場當中呢我們可以看到許多穿著各式傳統服飾的與會者穿梭往來"},{"start":16310.638,"end":16318.907,"text":"整個大會彷彿是一個化身的另類的世界博覽會為什麼會這個樣子本來在巴黎協定604"},{"start":16325.871,"end":16352.427,"text":"调的这个产生的这个巴黎协定碳权机制的额度机制让拥有良好自然资源的这些国家呢可以借由交易碳权来抵消碳排放但是呢真正的碳权绝对不是只有靠盘点土地跟森林面积关键在于全球最重要的这些自然"},{"start":16353.328,"end":16380.82,"text":"碳會的儲量幾乎都是和我們原住民族的這個傳統領域高度重疊的地方那這些土地跟自然資源的治理原住民族與在地的這些社群在文化土地權利跟治理所扮演的角色才是所有自然碳會的專業到底能不能成立的基礎我想不知道部長認不認同這樣的一個論述"},{"start":16383.927,"end":16410.53,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我蠻認同的因為我也觀察到這次在巴西里那個貝倫有大量的原住民其實那個非常的多他幾乎是在整個站館裡面有一半全部是原住民在那邊讓我很訝異那我們其實過去我們很少特別去提到說我們的碳匯跟原住民的關聯有部分提到但是沒有具體的去實施所以這次剛好我們有派出一個青年圓夢計畫有一個年輕朋友他就是原住民"},{"start":16411.53,"end":16422.498,"text":"我有跟他講說這個部分未來是不是可以有一些更好的論述從國外好的經驗帶回來臺灣也可以參考來做因為我們過去臺灣這個部分有倡議但是沒有落地"},{"start":16423.887,"end":16444.121,"text":"我想只跟一個原住民的年輕人講也是不夠的在這次的大會最具存在感的國家我想應該就是印尼印尼在這次COP30的淡黃區他們一口氣展示了40個原住民有關的探專案的攤位"},{"start":16446.663,"end":16468.81,"text":"如果全數都取得認證的話他們就可以產生超過9000萬個的碳權這是相當驚人的數據那印尼的目標在這個COP30期間促成高達10億美元的碳權交易把自己定位在亞洲氣候金融和綠色投資的重要樞紐就是連"},{"start":16471.572,"end":16483.41,"text":"這個主辦國巴西也都強調原住民在他們國家環境資源的治理所扮演的角色那這些訊息我想請教一下部長你們的戰情中心有沒有收集回來"},{"start":16486.823,"end":16511.208,"text":"這個比較個別在國家管的這些訊息的話我們現在還陸續在整理當中所以現在在網站上確實還沒有放進來是沒有放進來還是沒有收集到有收集到但他們在整理當中那我很期待看到你們整理好之後的成果那我在去年的這個COVID-19已經有提醒過環境部了我們可以看一下"},{"start":16512.729,"end":16540.531,"text":"幫大家看一下簡報幫大家回憶一下我們台灣有16個原住民族那本席當然也是以身為原住民的立委為榮我們對於這個土地資源的使用跟維護當然傳承了我們祖先非常多的智慧而且是我們文化當中不可或缺的支柱我們非常樂意在共創多贏的這個前提下"},{"start":16541.212,"end":16549.038,"text":"一一起來參與自然資源的維護貢獻我們原住民族的力量哦那呃在"},{"start":16550.474,"end":16571.605,"text":"为了为这个台湾的在未来的这个PNCM的这个碳权交易的制度可以争取更多的扣抵碳排的费用那么只要环境部呢可以关注到这样的一个重点台湾原住民的这个土地参与与治理都会成为我们台湾的骄傲"},{"start":16573.835,"end":16593.074,"text":"因此本席具體建議我們也可以比照COP30辦理這個全國性原住民文化的這個碳排的研討但是我想我會希望說我們在辦理這樣的研討之前你們可以規劃一下到原鄉到"},{"start":16593.695,"end":16613.409,"text":"比較多的部落到各個部落去說明讓族人更了解才會有更多的參與不僅中央與地方政府也邀請對於碳費需求的廠商一起來投入資源發展原住民的土地資源維護的計畫"},{"start":16614.77,"end":16639.979,"text":"然後我們把這樣的成果呢分享到國際也可以賺取我們台灣這個探權交易的額度不曉得部長同不同意本席的建議好謝謝委員這個其實我有接觸到巴西有一些州政府然後甚至這個巴拉圭然後甚至像印尼他們其實都有類似的原住民跟這個森林碳會的合結合的合作那委員提到的部分我們會來參考因為台灣部"},{"start":16641.58,"end":16649.569,"text":"可能我們土地小所以我們的經濟優異沒有像那些國家這麼的大但是我覺得臺灣還是有機會的那委員提的建議很好我們會請氣候署來做規劃然後來辦相關的研討會"},{"start":16652.602,"end":16667.466,"text":"然後跟原民的部落來對談我們會來做我剛剛有一個提醒重要提醒就是說在我們辦理這樣子的一個研討之前這樣的一個計畫之前我會希望說你們可以這個點廣一點"},{"start":16671.187,"end":16694.506,"text":"去宣傳宣導這樣子的一件有意義的事情因為我當然我也不希望說對於我們未來要推動這樣的一件事情好像變成只有少數人在參與在把持那我希望是可以全面性的參與做這樣特別的提醒可以 這個我們來做到時候委員給我們指導"},{"start":16696.581,"end":16712.282,"text":"好那我最後要用兩張圖片來表達環境部綠色飲食的看法你們在報告第5頁說我們每天有495公噸的這個廚餘處理的切口那我們人口數扣除這個"},{"start":16715.145,"end":16734.457,"text":"喝奶品的這個嬰幼兒我們用這個2000萬的人口來計算的話每人每天呢只要減少除以25公克其實就可以達標了不是很困難你們去統計一下喔其實這個原住民"},{"start":16735.157,"end":16759.591,"text":"比人口比较高的这个比例比较高的县市啊例如说花东地区那是不是我们厨余的这个人均的产生量是最少的我只是推估啦那这个应该是一个有趣的我们计算跟研究大家可以去看一下假如是的话"},{"start":16760.592,"end":16789.495,"text":"那麼在這個我們原住民美食或者是烹煮的方式或許也可以提供給大家去參考就是說減少廚餘的這個部分但我覺得就是說當然烹煮方式不是唯一的參考的一個方式其實在原住民的整個飲食文化跟習慣我們從準備這個備料開始我們的餐具"},{"start":16790.546,"end":16805.789,"text":"跟我們食物的原料的備料的採集其實我們很重要的一個重點就是我們大概吃多少"},{"start":16806.75,"end":16829.92,"text":"就補多少沒有像很多就是過多過多的這種準備我想這個是這樣的一個習慣是很重要的我也相信沒有過度油膩的這些食材是比較容易消化跟下肚的這個部分我覺得大家"},{"start":16831.02,"end":16858.336,"text":"環境部這邊可以作為一個減少廚餘的一個參考依據那建議你們去研究推廣大概就是說讓大家去我們原鄉到原住民的部落也可以多多的去學習品嘗這些美食跟烹調的方式跟我們的飲食文化的習慣謝謝 也不知道委員那個因為我們為了要減少廚餘有準備跟農業部跟"},{"start":16859.981,"end":16874.278,"text":"還有這個教育部有一個重新實農跟實質教育的結合那現在正在規劃當中到時候也請委員來給我們一些指導看如何針對這個原民部落或是大家跟原民部落學習這樣的一個做法好 了解 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族群多元的國家都選擇以我們原住民文化作為展館的亮點"},{"start":88.26,"end":108.194,"text":"那會場當中呢我們可以看到許多穿著各式傳統服飾的與會者穿梭往來整個大會呢彷彿是一個化身的另類的世界博覽會為什麼會這個樣子本來在巴黎協定"},{"start":111.892,"end":138.451,"text":"调的这个产生呢产生的这个巴黎协定碳权机制的额度机制让拥有良好自然资源的这些国家呢可以借由交易碳权来抵消碳排放但是呢真正的碳权绝对不是只有靠盘点土地跟森林面积关键在于全球最重要的这些自然"},{"start":139.352,"end":166.821,"text":"碳會的儲量幾乎都是和我們原住民族的這個傳統領域高度重疊的地方那這些土地跟自然資源的治理原住民族與在地的這些社群呢在文化土地權利跟治理所扮演的角色呢才是所有自然碳會的專業到底能不能成立的基礎我想不知道部長認不認同這樣的一個論述"},{"start":169.95,"end":196.568,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我蠻認同的因為我也觀察到這次在巴西里那個貝倫有大量的原住民其實那個非常的多他幾乎是在整個站館裡面有一半全部是原住民在那邊讓我很訝異那我們其實過去我們很少特別去提到說我們的碳匯跟原住民的關聯有部分提到但是沒有具體的去實施所以這次剛好我們有派出一個青年圓夢計畫有一個年輕朋友他就是原住民"},{"start":197.569,"end":208.545,"text":"我有跟他講說這個部分未來是不是可以有一些更好的論述從國外好的經驗帶回來 臺灣也可以參考來做因為我們過去臺灣這個部分有倡議但是沒有落地"},{"start":209.928,"end":231.268,"text":"我想只跟一個原住民的年輕人講也是不夠的在這次的大會最具存在感的國家我想應該就是印尼印尼在這次COP30的淡黃區他們一口氣展示了40個原住民有關的探專案的攤位"},{"start":232.689,"end":254.681,"text":"如果全數都取得認證的話他們就可以產生超過9000萬個的碳權這是相當驚人的數據那印尼的目標在這個COP30期間促成高達10億美元的碳權交易把自己定位在亞洲氣候金融和綠色投資的重要樞紐"},{"start":255.902,"end":269.436,"text":"就是連這個主辦國巴西也都強調原住民在他們國家環境資源的治理所扮演的角色那這些訊息我想請教一下部長你們的戰情中心有沒有收集回來"},{"start":271.724,"end":297.252,"text":"中國人報告這個比較個別在國家管的這些訊息的話我們現在還陸續在整理當中所以現在在網站上確實還沒有放進來是沒有放進來還是沒有收集到有收集到但他們在整理當中好那我很期待看到你們整理好之後的成果那我在去年的這個COVID-19已經有提醒過環境部了我們可以看一下"},{"start":298.752,"end":317.244,"text":"幫大家看一下簡報幫大家回憶一下我們台灣有16個原住民族那本席當然也是以身為原住民的立委為榮我們對於這個土地資源的使用跟維護當然傳承了我們祖先非常多的智慧"},{"start":317.924,"end":331.936,"text":"而且是我們文化當中不可或缺的支柱我們非常樂意在共創多贏的這個前提下一起來參與自然資源的維護貢獻我們原住民族的力量"},{"start":335.051,"end":357.652,"text":"在为了为这个台湾的在未来的这个PNCM的这个碳权交易的制度可以争取更多的扣抵碳排的费用那么只要环境部呢可以关注到这样的一个重点台湾原住民的这个土地参与与治理都会成为我们台湾的骄傲"},{"start":359.876,"end":379.097,"text":"因此本席具體建議我們也可以比照COP30辦理這個全國性原住民文化的這個碳排的研討但是我想我會希望說我們在辦理這樣的研討之前呢你們可以規劃一下到原鄉到"},{"start":379.737,"end":399.45,"text":"比較多的部落到各個部落去說明讓族人更了解才會有更多的參與不僅中央與地方政府也邀請對於碳費需求的廠商一起來投入資源發展原住民的土地資源維護的計畫"},{"start":400.811,"end":423.591,"text":"然後我們把這樣的成果呢分享到國際也可以賺取我們台灣這個碳權交易的額度不曉得部長同不同意本席的建議好 謝謝委員 這個其實我有接觸到巴西有一些州政府然後甚至這個巴拉圭然後甚至像印尼他們其實都有類似的原住民跟這個森林碳會的結合的合作"},{"start":424.051,"end":440.316,"text":"那委員提到的部分我們會來參考因為臺灣可能我們土地小所以我們的經濟優異沒有像那些國家這麼的大但是我覺得臺灣還是有機會的那委員提的建議很好我們會請氣候署來做規劃然後來辦相關的研討會然後跟這個原民的部落來對談"},{"start":441.576,"end":453.607,"text":"我們會來做我剛剛有一個提醒重要提醒就是說在我們辦理這樣子的一個研討之前這樣的一個計畫之前我會希望說你們可以這個點廣一點"},{"start":457.23,"end":482.029,"text":"去宣傳宣導這樣子的一件有意義的事情因為我當然我也不希望說對於我們未來要推動這樣的一件事情好像變成只有少數人在參與在把持那我希望是可以全面性的參與做這樣特別的提醒可以我這個我們來做到時候委員給我們指導"},{"start":482.605,"end":498.293,"text":"好那我最後要用兩張圖片來表達環境部綠色飲食的看法你們在報告第5頁說我們每天有495公噸的這個廚餘處理的切口那我們人口數扣除這個"},{"start":501.176,"end":520.494,"text":"喝奶品的这个婴幼儿我们用这个2000万的人口来计算的话每人每天只要减少除以25公克其实就可以达标了不是很困难你们去统计一下其实这个原住民"},{"start":521.195,"end":545.615,"text":"比人口比较高的这个比例比较高的县市啊例如说花东地区那是不是我们厨余的这个人均的产生量是最少的我只是推估啦那这个应该是一个有趣的我们计算跟研究大家可以去看一下假如是的话"},{"start":546.616,"end":575.503,"text":"那麼在這個我們原住民美食或者是烹煮的方式或許也可以提供給大家去參考就是說減少廚餘的這個部分但我覺得就是說當然烹煮方式不是唯一的參考的一個方式其實在原住民的整個飲食文化跟習慣我們從準備這個備料開始我們的餐具"},{"start":576.59,"end":591.81,"text":"跟我們這個食物的原料的這個備料的一個採集其實我們很重要的一個重點就是我們大概就是吃多少"},{"start":592.791,"end":618.124,"text":"就補多少沒有像很多就是過多過多的這種準備那我想這個是這樣的一個習慣是很重要的那我也相信沒有過度油膩的這些食材是比較容易消化跟下肚的那這個部分我覺得大家環境部這邊可以"},{"start":618.724,"end":645.3,"text":"作为一个减少厨余的一个参考依据那建议你们去研究推广大概就是说让大家去我们原乡到原住民的部落也可以多多的去学习品尝这些美食跟烹调的方式跟我们的饮食文化的习惯谢谢 也不知道我也那个因为我们为了要减少厨余有准备跟农业部跟"},{"start":646.002,"end":660.308,"text":"還有這個教育部有一個重新實農跟實質教育的結合那現在正在規劃當中到時候也請委員來給我們一些指導看如何針對這個原民部落或是大家跟原民部落學習這樣的一個做法好 了解 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103ca5b2205c133d19a408e1b0d34147d14c138493249f8885807ad918d6d5f52c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:51:52 - 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麻煩請環境部長"},{"start":16.796,"end":41.789,"text":"我們現在關心一下高雄垃圾山事情因為那一個廠商原本是民進黨里長後來被開除黨籍就是民進黨都覺得他做一些很違反黨域的事情那他是四年有13次違規的堆置然後他堆置廢棄物還引發兩次火災但是他卻可以一直營業然後他被裁罰了總共六七萬居然十萬塊錢賴皮不繳"},{"start":43.268,"end":51.288,"text":"我問一下 這個當然部長你會說這是高雄市政府的事情啦但是你作為一個最高的環境的主管機關你覺得看到這樣的事情你覺得會不會很離譜"},{"start":52.653,"end":80.403,"text":"這當然很離譜啊這個但是我們還是要依法行政啦然後我會再了解一下他為什麼不叫你覺得很離譜嘛然後依法行政就代表說現在的法好像已經沒有辦法符合現狀了嘛那中央就應該從制度性的做一些改變啦我們有要修廢清法好那現在喔這一個案件大家覺得誇張的是他的模式是這樣啦就是他租了一個鐵皮屋廠房嘛然後當作垃圾的站置區然後趁大家不注意的時候又把垃圾偷盜到越視界嘛是這樣嘛"},{"start":81.423,"end":95.815,"text":"那這其實也凸顯一個管理上的問題啦其實這應該是全國性的問題就是說他們去申請那個執照很容易然後申請執照然後這個不換的違規又說沒有關係可以繼續的營業然後罰單可以不繳然後"},{"start":98.309,"end":122.675,"text":"所以還可以隨便找什麼轉運站然後隨便找一個轉運站就可以堆置垃圾然後再找機會去偷盜然後他去挑全國各縣市哪個縣市管理比較鬆嘛當然你會說那高雄管理比較鬆這不是中央的問題那高雄鬆不鬆那就是高雄的問題但是在制度上一定是可以改變啊否則的話為什麼會會出現這個情況呢所以您說要修廢清法修了之後就可以改善嗎"},{"start":123.195,"end":148.909,"text":"第一個是加重刑責第二個是我們會透過自由智慧維力的方式明年開始會啟動像這樣的話會抓得更快會抓得更快現在等於是說要有一個時間差要去看那對於這種那對於這個清運業者 清除業者因為他申請執照很容易嘛然後他到底這些垃圾去哪裡感覺上好像一開始沒有辦法防避嘛你現在都是事後嘛就是他偷盜之後嘛我現在講的是在事先的管理面"},{"start":149.788,"end":166.167,"text":"管裡面的話當然就要對這些清除業者要加強他的這個管控那你剛才講過他的罰則並沒有很好的不是罰則 罰則是事後啦我是講說因為其實本來制度上就有一些事前的管制譬如說GPS啊或者是各種做法但現在看起來"},{"start":167.307,"end":195.539,"text":"看起來沒有用嘛所以我覺得環境部是不是可以討論一下就這些清除業者的管制上不能讓他這樣子隨便偷盜這個因為現在包含了最近的廚餘也需要已清的業者來清理那當然已清的業者只有清除業者我們必須也要再重新一些思考能夠能不能更有效的管理這個是第一個第一個問題就是我覺得不能都推給高雄啦因為當然高雄最近問題很多這也不是我們今天在立法院要講啦但是中央應該是要"},{"start":196.92,"end":222.308,"text":"站在一個制度面看看就跟地方討論一下說現在的管理到底出了什麼問題明明機制在那邊就是會有那麼多不但漏洞不過還是就是想做壞事的人他就偷雞摸狗做這些事情這是我們一定要但是我剛舉的那個案例你都覺得很誇張啊13次違規然後兩次火災然後還可以繼續營業這真的很奇怪啦齁那第二就是台南現在垃圾山火災的事情相信部長你也都很清楚嘛剛剛很多人在問啦齁"},{"start":223.41,"end":245.033,"text":"那我首先我有兩個問題第一個喔這個事情因為火災的地方是一個原本的軍營嘛是環保局借來非製風災的佔置物然後引發火災那事後裁罰的話如果找不到到底是誰中火的話搞不好自燃還是怎麼樣我不知道你有掌握火災發生原因嗎目前這還在調查當中那到時候如果"},{"start":246.889,"end":276.435,"text":"找不到調查找不到火災的發生原因的話他就是處罰行為就是處罰就是可以規則的行為人就是台南市環保局啊環保局要自己開罰自己那求援兼裁判那這個部分要環境部要怎麼去監督呢這個以前有太多這樣的案例了要自己罰自己那自己罰自己當然就罰最輕啊因為台南市那個環保局以前在110年的時候也發生類似案子案子啊後來就罰幾千塊那環境部都沒有角色"},{"start":278.016,"end":301.867,"text":"這個是屬於罰者完全沒有角色當然我們自己罰自己罰個最輕然後還累犯然後這個環境部都也不關心然後也沒有角色不會啦報告委員這個是一個意外啦意外意外發生我們當然不希望他可以發生那所以我們未來會對於這種所謂的這種戰志的這個場我們是不是來做一個通盤的檢討要不要更好的規範這是我們未來要做的那現在總共類似這種戰志場多少"},{"start":304.327,"end":313.839,"text":"這個有一個叫野埋場那這個戰智場台南我記得這次是風災後特殊的意外有三個全國多少那嘉義的應該清掉了你有沒有回答"},{"start":315.494,"end":336.727,"text":"因為這個佔滯場有的就是我們的規劃說都是放在掩埋場裡面佔滯所以如果真的是放在外面我們這裡的資料大概是七個七個因為風災之後去佔滯七個台南這是其中一個台南本身就有三個那你們對於佔滯場管理是怎麼樣"},{"start":338.923,"end":353.905,"text":"目前因為他站置的時間原來規劃的不是太長那所以就是怕去化太慢了嗎就是有一些警衛在那裡看這個環境部也要有一個監督的機制不然放在那邊如果不是發生火災搞不好"},{"start":354.606,"end":374.404,"text":"就在那邊 堆在那邊天荒地老啊所以這個管理的問題啦 好不好 再加強一下好像部長是太辛苦了 所以感冒是不是我最後一個問 因為我看到這個台南的火災事件之後附近的居民很憂心啊 就問一個問題就是說裡面有沒有被丟石棉瓦"},{"start":375.914,"end":396.799,"text":"那個我剛剛他們那個有查證明是沒有石棉瓦沒有石棉瓦 其他的有啦所以網友可以那石棉瓦就是風災那個有很多屋頂啊什麼被摧毀了你石棉瓦你分離是不是你把石棉瓦拿到另外一個地方去堆置是不是石棉瓦有特別堆置的沒有做這個分離的動作是不是 有有有"},{"start":398.56,"end":423.269,"text":"沒有 那網友比較放心但是 石棉網大家會特別問 是因為石棉它石棉網完整是沒問題但是它如果破裂的話就會引發剛剛可以看到就是很多癌症的問題石棉纖維嘛 吸進去然後石棉其實它你們在處理這個也有一個我覺得也有一個問題跟剛剛我們討論差不多就是它現在你沒辦法焚化嘛對不對你現在是要用什麼方式去去化"},{"start":424.029,"end":447.714,"text":"呃他首先第一個是要把他破碎固化掩埋啦要把他固化掩埋固化掩埋只能夠掩埋那掩埋是最終處理方式嗎請問一下我們現在有幾個實棉的最終處理的掩埋場有三個場三個場好那三個場因為我們可以看一下現在環境部要做這個事情的時候我覺得他"},{"start":448.749,"end":472.64,"text":"因為風災的關係喔 像比如說以台南來講的話它就有54709棟當然不是每一個都有遇到風災有破損啦但是它產生的量一定會增加嘛一定會增加 全台灣是24萬棟那有一個數據 其實看得非常清楚就是之前環境部說要解決失眠這個問題的時候因為沒有風 那時候沒有風災 112年所以處理的量就是少"},{"start":473.921,"end":495.623,"text":"113年開始就開始變多114年因為這個數據統計到七月底所以比較少我相信如果統計到今年底的話因為有遇到七月以後的風災一定大量可是大家現在就會懷疑說我們到底有沒有足夠的量可以去處理這些失眠像你剛剛講有三個掩埋場那個量夠嗎"},{"start":497.447,"end":524.398,"text":"因為第一個我們現在50萬噸50萬噸是沒有壞的然後現在這次大概壞了一兩萬噸左右那一兩萬噸去處理這個是沒有問題然後每年有一個固定去化的量我們預估是沒有問題你確定沒有問題沒有問題那我們現在正在研發這種所謂的熱處理的方式把它化學把它的體積變小所以目前也正在研發當中我們希望未來沒有問題那你在追蹤處理之前你也是用站置對不對"},{"start":525.942,"end":554.927,"text":"呃 他暫時 實面是暫製嘛實面有暫製好 那請問一下實面專屬於實面暫製廠全國有幾個呃現在大量的就是在晨曦然後大多數 大概幾個 直接請請這個實面的處理的最終廠會直接發生的時候他馬上就運走所以其實有一個流程在那邊好 那 那如果是暫製的話會不會出現台南火燒垃圾山的狀況呃 實面就是隔熱不可燃防火啊對 還那麼大家會喜歡或者是說其他的"},{"start":556.097,"end":566.185,"text":"對 環境破壞的方式會不會不會不會他其實就用太空包包在那個地方然後就有侵略者來把他運走好 那因為實名大家很關心啦所以我覺得不會不會好 謝謝好 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我們開始進行今天的公聽會首先我來談一下今天公聽會最重要的是因為我們看到這一年來近年來我們教師黃真的非常的嚴重而且是日益的嚴重所以我們各級的學校都面臨了正式的教師招不滿然後臨時的教師找不到的一個困境"},{"start":1711.833,"end":1737.045,"text":"當然這個困境除了包含108課綱實施之後教師的備課壓力劇增行政減量沒有辦法落實以及薪資調整跟不上物價通膨比不上其他的行業那麼再加上我們今天也要談到的校式會議的制度實施以後所衍生的相關問題恐怕都讓我們所有基層的老師其實是非常的辛苦"},{"start":1738.526,"end":1764.927,"text":"教育部其實已經承諾要在今年年底之前提出校事會議相關的修正辦法來遏止我們校園爛宿的一個問題為了要讓我們的教師跟我們的家長團體在預告期間內各方意見都能夠讓教育部來做一個參酌以達到修正能夠更圓滿所以我們在教育部正式提出教師"},{"start":1766.049,"end":1775.343,"text":"校事会议精进方案之前我们今天来办这个公听会希望教育部可以纳入今天我们各专家学者的一个意见"},{"start":1776.67,"end":1805.438,"text":"那我想在这个今天的这个各界宝贵的意见跟这个相互交流讨论就可以作为日后我们教师法相关条文这个修正跟这个教育部修正高级中等以下学校教师解聘跟不续聘停聘或者资遣办法的一个参考那我们今天相关的讨论提纲因为我有附在大家应该这个资料上都有我想是不是就请大家来参着今天相关的讨论提纲"},{"start":1806.926,"end":1830.529,"text":"那现在我来为大家介绍我们与会的委员还有我们专家学者跟我们的官员那我们的委员现在还没有进来然后我先来介绍我们的专家学者好我们第一位是我们欢迎全国教师工会总联合会杨亦菲副秘书长欢迎您"},{"start":1832.199,"end":1859.927,"text":"第二位是我們桃園市教師會陳俊鈺理事長歡迎您第三位是傳勝律師事務所呂丹琪律師歡迎您第四位是全國教師工會總聯合會也是台南市教育產業工會我們陳偉雲理事長也歡迎您第五位是益謙法律事務所翁國彥律師歡迎您"},{"start":1861.451,"end":1886.604,"text":"第六位是台湾EDU教育协会陈颖嘉常务监事欢迎您第七位是人本教育基金会冯乔兰执行长也欢迎您第八位是全国教师会李亚文理事欢迎您第九位是全国教育产业总工会陈元峰副秘书长"},{"start":1887.817,"end":1913.282,"text":"歡迎您第十位是屏東縣教育產業工會郭偉珍理事長現場到的我都有介紹到了嗎因為我們都已經有簽到登記嗎好接下來我再為大家介紹我們今天與會列席的官員首先我們介紹的是我們教育部鄭英耀部長"},{"start":1915.331,"end":1941.139,"text":"謝謝部長我們國教署彭副原署長以及我們國教署曾瓊惠人事主任陳俊廷科長好 謝謝接下來我們今天也有幾位我們的旁聽人員我也介紹一下首先是我們台灣EDU教育協會的理事長蔡祺燁"},{"start":1945.958,"end":1962.585,"text":"還有我們全國中小學校長協會的理事長陳清義理事長請坐接下來是我們桃園市教育教師會的政策部主任張瓊芳老師謝謝"},{"start":1973.648,"end":1998.374,"text":"主席這裡報告我們為了能夠讓大家都能夠順利的表達意見所以我們做如下的處理今天每一位的發言時間為7分鐘然後我們在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲來提醒在第7分鐘結束的時候就會有一個結束的鈴聲了我們專家學者的發言是以我們今天簽名先後順序為準"},{"start":1999.034,"end":2020.091,"text":"那現場發言跟書面的資料立法院會做成記錄刊登公報在場的委員等一下來我想在10點之前來登記我們會在會議當中跟我們今天專家學者做一個穿插然後如果待會委員來的時候發言在主席才登記以後主席會做一個處理好"},{"start":2020.811,"end":2046.657,"text":"那現在我們開始我們先請教育部的曾英耀部長就現行的規定還有我們執行的狀況相關的問題提出一些說明那報告時間五分鐘主席各位委員各位我們關心台灣教育的所有的教育界的好朋友大家早安大家好"},{"start":2047.708,"end":2068.309,"text":"那本次受邀列席我们教委教文会这个公听会仅就这一个校师会议的一个检讨跟测证提出报告我想我们大家都知道从108年教师法修订的意旨就是用来增进老师的教学品质维护学生的权益为核心的目标"},{"start":2069.19,"end":2082.875,"text":"所以也因此這個解聘辦法是依據這個教師法的第29條授權來訂定作為落實兒少權益保障以確保教學品質的基石那解聘辦法從113年4月17號全文來修正"},{"start":2087.217,"end":2099.211,"text":"確實我在從去年520以後當然有許多的教師團體校長團體跟校長團體有分別這一年半來聽了許多有關校園的一些相關的一些"},{"start":2101.607,"end":2127.744,"text":"校事的一些處理那當然我們也知道這一年辦來裡邊也有非常大的一些來自於校園的聲音來自於學校的一個治理來自於家長或者關心台灣教育的一個團體對學校裡邊怎麼樣我們提供一個更友善的一個校園能夠支持老師專心教學能夠這一個信任校長的一個辦學以及"},{"start":2128.644,"end":2154.317,"text":"青师生能够有一个更好的合作提供我们新世代的一个学生有更好的一个受教的一个品质跟环境我想我们针对许多来自于不同团体跟座谈的一些声音提出了这个解聘办法的一个修正重点第一 建立青师生沟通预防机制我们相信学校台湾的一个教育这些年来表现亮丽"},{"start":2155.322,"end":2178.157,"text":"那是因為我們老師基於專業我們的校長的辦學基於專業來進行專業的領導跟校務的治理但是不容否認我們在許多難免學校的一個事件裡面也有一些老師需要給予這一個指證給予這一個對不適任教師沒有維護兒少權益的我們"},{"start":2179.258,"end":2201.428,"text":"还是要让他能够离开学校我们要建立这个机制可是在建立这个机制里边我们必须要首先要建立亲师生的沟通预防机制也就是说学校要基于教育专业跟辅导支持的理念得以亲师生沟通行政务谈等方式了解教师教学与沟通的状况"},{"start":2202.208,"end":2221.565,"text":"借此建立正向互动与支持机制以营造友善的效应第二个我们在新的一个办法在这一个已经上行政院公报执行网的一个法规预告的这个消失会议里边我们也具体做了一个删除匿名检举的一个弹数规定"},{"start":2222.645,"end":2248.997,"text":"也就是說考量解聘案件均為大多數的具名檢舉因此而造成學校的一些彼此的師生親師真的不信任而造成不必要的一些困擾我想我們首先建議刪除匿名檢舉規定以減少不實檢舉的一個案件第三是校士會以懲處案件脫鉤處理為避免耗費行政資源校士會議僅省議"},{"start":2250.658,"end":2279.414,"text":"教师设有教师法不适任情形的案件避免校师会议频繁召开第四个是增订辅佐人的一个机制也就是考量我们老师企图当事人不熟悉调查的程序为保障权益以实时协助明定当事人接受访谈时得请学校老师家长或其他校内外的人协助担任这个辅佐人一例调查进行本部已完成"},{"start":2280.174,"end":2308.453,"text":"解聘办法的一个修正场合案那么今天除了在这个网路上公布公告以外也欢迎我们各界的一个关心台湾的教育的朋友能够给这个法令有一个更高的更多的一些这个指导跟指教我想教育部在这个公告法案的这个14天里边我们在广收各界的一些意见我们总是希望"},{"start":2309.173,"end":2325.894,"text":"能够大家共同努力让学校恢复到一个正常的教学校长本于专业领导进行校务治理老师也本于专业指导好我们每一位学生也让家长能够放心谢谢大家 谢谢 以上"},{"start":2331.294,"end":2358.465,"text":"好 谢谢部长的这个报告那在这里其实我也要谢谢一下部长今天其实本来有行政院很重要的会议那但是我们今天的公听会交易部也非常的重视那也要在这个预告之后正式去把这个校事会议这个颁布前那部长要亲自在这里来听听看大家的意见作为采纳要非常感谢那第二个呢我想也跟会议报告那也谢谢我们刘淑冰召委那今天呢"},{"start":2359.505,"end":2374.995,"text":"把这个时间让我们在这个地方来开这个校区会议的一个公听会也谢谢刘树斌召委那接下来我补充介绍一下我们今天的专家学者到场是国教行动联盟我们张文昌常务理事谢谢 欢迎您请坐"},{"start":2379.585,"end":2392.297,"text":"好 现在我们接下来就要由签名顺序第一位的专家学者开始我们先有请我们全国教师工会总联合会的杨亦菲副秘书长时间7分钟"},{"start":2397.851,"end":2412.985,"text":"部長委員跟各位教育先生大家好那我代表全國教師公會來發表關於今天對於校師會工程委的意見我想上個週末從禮拜五晚上開始現場教師其實進入一種非常哀傷的情緒因為我們在"},{"start":2413.806,"end":2437.118,"text":"週五的時候聽聞到新竹有位老師他墜樓的案件那這個案件本身可能也跟學校的一些調查程序有相關在事情還沒清楚之前我們其實也都非常的擔心跟哀傷但其實緊接不久我們就從哀傷轉為一種絕望因為其實本來大家對於校職會議的意見想要在這邊做一個表達"},{"start":2438.058,"end":2465.185,"text":"可是教育部卻在禮拜五的時候就已經直接公告了他們的版本那我們其實非常懷疑說那如果公聽會都還沒召開完教育部就已經推出了自己版本要說是很傾聽基層的心聲我們其實是非常絕望的那在看完他的版本之後我們其實從絕望轉為憤怒因為其實整個修法的這個版本裡面其實並沒有解決現場的任何一個問題反而是製造更多的問題"},{"start":2466.425,"end":2487.835,"text":"但現在這個本來校式會議就是為了要解決現場的一些紛擾那今天的提綱其實也提到了校式會議到底是不是有沒有背離初衷我們一開始就會說校式會議其實已經背離初衷在教育的現場校式會議已經成為一種仇失的代名詞大家都知道不管任何的它的程序是複雜先不管程序的問題"},{"start":2488.635,"end":2505.52,"text":"他所設計的這個系統已經讓所有的老師是唯恐避之不及那在新修法的這個版本裡面他其實有幾個我們隨便檢視就可以看到一個很大的問題那首先這個是在他新修的第二之一條裡面其實提到了"},{"start":2506.54,"end":2521.933,"text":"学校基于教育专业与辅导支持的理念得以寻堂观客亲自沉沟通行政务谈或其他合理有效方式来了解教师教学及沟通状况促进校园正向营造友善校园环境必要使得做成记录这一条"},{"start":2522.854,"end":2544.027,"text":"陳如剛部長所報告其實我們校職會議是為了要處理有涉及解聘行為的教師但我們不太理解這一條放在處理不適合教師的一個辦法裡面它的目的是什麼這個其實就是一般校園的日常今天寫在這裡可能會發生一個狀況就是本來我們就是為了教學會不會產生一種"},{"start":2544.847,"end":2564.957,"text":"我寫在這裡了我更有法律依據我更可以讓惡意的人依照這一條時不時就進去讓看老師進去做官課進去做報告所以新增這一條的意義到底是什麼它跟解聘有什麼關係是不是教育部覺得這個法條的條文太少所以想要再多寫一點"},{"start":2566.818,"end":2589.886,"text":"更有趣的是我們來看到第9條第9條裡面原本我們其實會期待新的版本推出來可以解決所謂的不受理事項確實的拒絕這件事情但在新增版本的第9條裡面他明定了如果我今天受理之後校長可以邀請調查人才庫裡面的各代表委員來進行討論討論之後如果"},{"start":2594.972,"end":2613.043,"text":"大家表決過半覺得這案不符合校士會議覺得這案它有符合校士會議拒絕受理的情形才得以受理我們完全不了解就是如果你已經規定是不予受理的情況為什麼還要再經過表決來做處理"},{"start":2615.604,"end":2640.372,"text":"如果照這個邏輯下來未來是不是就表決怎麼來審判教師所以這個事我們其實不太明白為什麼要再多一道這樣的程序接下來要談的是在修法法裡面又有提到了經過大眾媒體檢舉的這個案件學校得視為公開檢舉也必須受理原本的版本就是邀請學校受理"},{"start":2641.132,"end":2668.428,"text":"那在這個版本裡面新增了由學校來聯繫那我們也很問號我們該怎麼去聯繫這個媒體公開的這個對象那如果今天是他個人用IG用退用FB公開自行投書這個學校是否要視為成立呢那像我今天如果可能在這邊公開檢舉教育部這個校數會議的辦法有問題教育部是不是也應該公開受理那第三"},{"start":2671.218,"end":2693.904,"text":"新修改的版本裡面把考核辦法的程序跟校士回憶扣在一起它其實是兩個不同的概念那現在把這兩個程序疊團交加在一起舉例來說原本老師今天他可能遲到遲到之後其實遲到就是一個事實了那遲到幾次之後你就是依考核辦法直接處理就可以了那在新修的版本裡面說考核程序的辦法"},{"start":2696.145,"end":2715.541,"text":"如果有人投訴你遲到照這個邏輯來講就是校長應該先找校事會議的人來先看看是不是有需要做調查如果不需要調查就直接派員派員就是本來五個變三個派完之後還是要寫調查報告調查報告完之後再送到考核會去做處理這不就是很明顯的跌床駕屋嗎"},{"start":2716.662,"end":2741.171,"text":"我們在現場都知道所謂的簡易調查報告一點都不簡易現今沒有人敢寫所謂的簡易調查報告它簡易調查報告的等級全部都等同正式的報告在這樣子的狀況底下你變成考核辦法跟所謂的消息會議的整個不適應系統勾在一起會有嚴重的競合問題在法治體力上真的叫做跌床駕屋最後我想我要提的是"},{"start":2742.071,"end":2758.066,"text":"我們其實當初就會反對無成本的爛訴當然教育部也先優先刪除了利民檢舉的這部分但我們其實也不太清楚教育部在這陣子是用什麼樣的心態找了誰來逐筆來修改這樣的一個法令但我想我們必須想顯然是沒有搞清楚問題的所在"},{"start":2759.807,"end":2787.458,"text":"因為整個這個所謂校師會議的系統它就是預設了老師要被監視它就預設了老師要被審判它其實是一種踐踏教育專業的存在所有的老師都必須要擔心兢兢業業的所以這樣一個預設老師有系統的校師會議我們其實主張應該要做廢除否則任你法條再怎麼細修它還是預設老師有問題還是預設老師要審判那以上意見就教謝謝大家"},{"start":2791.574,"end":2794.31,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們有請陳俊逸理事長"},{"start":2807.205,"end":2830.746,"text":"委員部長以及在場所有教育以及媒體先進 大家好我是桃園市教師會暨桃園市各級學校產業工會理事長陳君毓最近我們有一個老師他在翠上面寫上這句話我們跟那些墜落的老師只差一張公文這句話夠震撼吧但是這個也非常的寫實這個不是情緒 這個是現場"},{"start":2832.788,"end":2858.851,"text":"今天我們能夠站在講台上繼續任教的老師不一定比較堅強也不一定比較優秀而是我們還沒有被校士會議凌遲這個是全台教師的真實狀況包含我本人在內我也是擔心校士會議我們的每天工作其實都像在刀口上工作只要是被投訴 一紙公文你就可能改變你的教學生涯"},{"start":2859.81,"end":2880.165,"text":"那現在的教育環境已經變成投訴大於對話的空間家長跟學生只要動動手指就能夠啟動一整套針對老師的調查程序可是你真正站在第一線承受壓力的老師被賦予的管教措施呢少之又少甚至很可憐"},{"start":2881.526,"end":2894.813,"text":"結果卻是投訴的力量無限放大教師的安全感被壓到最低很多本來認真負責有原則的老師被迫在堅守教育原則以及避免惹禍上升之間掙扎"},{"start":2896.494,"end":2917.719,"text":"教育的現場權力結構徹底翻轉以前我們是怕小孩子被威權壓迫現在老師隨時都會被民粹吞沒有些自稱關心孩子的團體往往在缺乏施政之前就急著貼標籤把老師推向輿論的風頭浪尖真正忽視的反而是教育的專業判斷"},{"start":2919.352,"end":2944.086,"text":"那我要問教育一個最基本的問題一個都沒有辦法沒有安全感的老師怎麼教得出有安全感懂尊重能夠承擔責任的孩子我們以為是保護小孩其實是讓小孩子認為說只要我受傷全世界都要負責任喔這樣的錯誤訊號不只讓小孩子失去成長的機會也逼死那些真正想要把孩子教好的老師"},{"start":2945.467,"end":2964.676,"text":"好那麼回到數據面上個禮拜11月19號國家行動聯盟跟全國家長團體聯盟發表的聯合聲明中有引用教育部的資料從去年4月17號解聘辦法實施以來到今年5月30號為止全國校師會議投訴案件1372件那其中1124件受理"},{"start":2967.017,"end":2994.844,"text":"真正成立而且需要懲處的只有311件而最嚴重的停聘解聘只有26件佔全部投訴案件的1.9%進一步推論得到的這個兩會的推論是什麼呢全國19萬名中小學老師一年內真正被解聘的只有萬分之1.4顯示我們所謂這個爛訴風暴人人自為根本不存在各位真的不存在嗎"},{"start":2995.484,"end":3015.219,"text":"超級好笑這張統計數據另外一面是77.3%的冤案也就是爛訴多少老師被白白折磨公審他們被投訴被調查被貼標籤被公審被寫報告最後證明清白了但是精神耗損免疫破碎身心崩潰"},{"start":3016.448,"end":3024.953,"text":"停聘期間接受調查的薪水還只剩一半這多麼的不公平但是這個就是目前校士會議造成的系統性傷害這樣算爛數嗎"},{"start":3029.062,"end":3053.573,"text":"那現行制度存在哪些結構性問題呢第一個很多主筆者他可能不見得有教育專業那他不熟悉教育現場的教育脈絡教學脈絡第二個調查員你隱身幕後調查報告可以左右教評會以及考核會的決定第三個非常多的調查員頻繁接案形成調查的產業鏈第四個"},{"start":3054.353,"end":3081.476,"text":"調查員最重要的他覺得他用他自己的心證去證明這件事情到底是有還是沒有甚至他用刑法去定罪再來第五個校長甚至可以藉由這個程序去整肅與他意見不合的人第六個即便老師被證明清白之後根本沒有補償他的薪水也沒有辦法回復如果這些問題都做不到改革請問一下校師會議到底存在的價值是什麼"},{"start":3082.597,"end":3105.033,"text":"好那比對教育部上個禮拜的預告草案那我們剛剛也有提到這些結構性問題到底有沒有修正根本都沒有不僅是程序加倍更是行政卸責還說是改革比較像是這個整個文革式的操作手法先指控再找證據情緒大於程序聲量大於專業"},{"start":3105.914,"end":3121.322,"text":"越多人說你有錯你就越難洗清這些特徵我們校師會議完完全全的具備在這個邏輯之下老師不需要犯錯啊老師只要被說說你有錯你就準備被送進去這台審判的機器裡面臨時"},{"start":3123.283,"end":3147.87,"text":"那我們最該問的是什麼原本制度裡面的教評會考核會還有我們剛剛部長發言提到的那個不適應教師目前已經有專審會在處理請問一下這些會議是橡皮圖章嗎如果不是為什麼不落實他們的功能本來就已經在落實啦已經在做啦那為什麼一直跌床架屋你除非要把老師逼到精神崩潰了"},{"start":3148.69,"end":3164.457,"text":"教育部還一直在講增訂程序做不到透明做不到負責做不到補償做不到專業做不到制衡做不到保護身為我們的主管機關教育部你坦白承認校士會議已經失能校士會議已經對老師造成嚴重的傷害校士會議就應該被廢除"},{"start":3166.698,"end":3194.27,"text":"最後請教育部及早停損讓教育回到專業台灣不會因為有更多的表單更長的程序更複雜的流程而進步教育只會因為專業被尊重老師有安全感制度有救濟調查有界限學校跟老師能夠對話而真正的被拯救那些墜落老師帶給我們的是沉痛的呼籲呼籲教育部你要廢除校事會議以上"},{"start":3201.294,"end":3224.429,"text":"好 接下来我们下一位有请我先来介绍一下我们又有两位专家选择到场第一位我介绍桃园市家长会长协会荣誉理事长吕朝福理事长欢迎您以及我们全国家长会长联盟黄正明荣誉理事长谢谢请坐欢迎您好 那我们接下来就有请吕丹琪律师发言"},{"start":3244.608,"end":3268.21,"text":"主席各位教育先進好不好意思因為我剛剛看發言順序我以為前面還有立法委員所以沒有沒有沒有及時的跑過來耽誤大家一點點的時間好那我是一個家長我擔任過家長會長那我現在目前的也是教育部人才庫同時也是教育部的"},{"start":3269.031,"end":3289.154,"text":"培訓講師那接到今天的公聽會其實我還蠻開心的那我是一位律師其實坦白說我不大敢接老師的委任案件因為那個陪伴老師的過程是非常的煎熬我會覺得除了提供法律專業之外"},{"start":3290.799,"end":3318.661,"text":"要安撫老師面對這一長串的調查程序對一個律師來說都相對是困難因為畢竟我不是心理師那禮拜五教育部已經有把草案很快的公佈我想應該就是為了要讓我們今天的公聽會更聚焦那以我自己的調查經驗坦白說學校要不要保留校事會議"},{"start":3320.586,"end":3346.108,"text":"其實以我個人我是覺得有必要保留因為畢竟在教育現場我們不敢說所有的老師都是OK的但是並不是不OK的老師我們就要讓他進到這麼繁瑣的調查程序我覺得重點是我們怎麼定位校式會議也就是校式會議在學校的功能到底是什麼"},{"start":3346.989,"end":3368.372,"text":"依目前現在看起來只要有任何的檢舉案就是啟動校師會議這個流程對老師是非常的煎熬所以我從幾個方向來討論這個校師會議的制度到底可能有哪些地方是可以到達比較完善讓老師不用那麼擔心面對校師會議第一個是啟動"},{"start":3369.913,"end":3385.722,"text":"什麼樣的條件是可以啟動第二個 什麼樣的條件是可以受理第三個是老師面對調查的程序有哪一些程序保障因為老師面對調查他不知道他接下去"},{"start":3386.522,"end":3405.464,"text":"要面臨什麼所以老師會害怕會擔心所以從這幾個方面我提出我個人的想法跟意見目前的草案第一個啟動的階段就是在第五條那啟動呢第一個很明確的檢舉有書面而且具名具體事實這個當然是沒有問題"},{"start":3407.446,"end":3431.628,"text":"第二個是學校經過大眾媒體或是警政、社政單位的通知而窒息那我這邊有一個很大的疑問社會大眾媒體現在的媒體太多了到底什麼樣的披露叫做學校因為社會大眾媒體的窒息而且學校還要主動去依照第八條學校要主動去查詢怎麼查詢"},{"start":3434.17,"end":3449.306,"text":"那如果社會大眾媒體都已經披露了學校敢不查嗎所以社會大眾媒體報導學校知悉到底這個啟動的權責要交給學校還是要移給"},{"start":3450.527,"end":3478.672,"text":"教育主管機關由教育局去篩選所以這個部分其實就會對應到這一次修法的草案九條之二教育主管機關決定受理或不受理我個人的建議如果是社會大眾媒體的披露其實教育主管機關應該主動的來查而不是把這個啟動的權責交給學校學校是要教學的"},{"start":3479.532,"end":3501.457,"text":"這是第一個再來以學校目前來說除了檢舉 除了媒體或者是教育局的來函還有一些是我們非常關心教育的基金會還有非常關心教育的民意代表打電話到學校來校長怎麼辦這個要不要試做啟動"},{"start":3504.33,"end":3530.415,"text":"這次其實沒有規範但是在學校普遍存在這樣子的案件學校不敢不查再來第二個部分受理階段以現在目前的草案看起來第九條學校只要案件進來校長就從校師會議找三個這三個這次的修法是有就專家學者是要有人才庫"},{"start":3531.175,"end":3547.417,"text":"但是第12條校士會議的成員並沒有修那個專家學者沒有把它修成必須是人才庫所以我的疑問就會校長找這三個到底是校士會議的人嗎因為校士會議的專家學者並沒有說是要人才庫"},{"start":3548.158,"end":3568.659,"text":"是不是要一并修那再来就是这三个人要决定受理或不受理他的专业度要非常的够因为依照不受理的条件看来往后只有第一款也就是非属体罚霸凌不当管教这三个人专业度如果不够没有办法做很精确的"},{"start":3569.46,"end":3593.377,"text":"判斷可能會有很大的問題再來就是如果是屬於人才庫我也建議必須要是外聘不要是學校內部的人因為學校也有人去參與培訓他也是人才庫再者第九條之一有規定如果是屬於考核事項"},{"start":3594.986,"end":3616.403,"text":"校士會議是做不受理然後去依照考核辦法這次考核辦法第六條之一也修了也就是做二分法但是這裡會有一個問題如果學校一旦做不受理一旦做了不受理家長就可以依照第十條去教育局澄清可是學校有處理學校是依照考核辦法所以我的建議是"},{"start":3618.064,"end":3644.56,"text":"做三分法受理進校室受理進考核完全都不符合的話不受理因為受理進考核家長就不會再去教育局陳情啦學校有處理過啦只是他認為情節沒有那麼嚴重那再來關於主管機關九條之二主管機關現在目前的草案是如果主管機關已經篩選過他認為不符合受理的室友"},{"start":3645.612,"end":3668.019,"text":"一律不符合不受理的事由就是叫學校處理他的規定是處理喔不是受理那我想要問主管機關已經決定不受理了還要讓學校再走第八條第九條那不是行政重疊嗎而且主管機關叫學校不管他再怎麼通知學校敢不受理嗎好那因為時間到了"},{"start":3671.971,"end":3692.713,"text":"那謝謝主席我再用一點點時間我還想要講的就是程序保障的問題因為現在目前大部分的老師在接受訪談的時候他都不知道我被告了什麼因為學校的行政不敢告訴他他說我有保密的責任所以通常老師到訪談他都是不知道"},{"start":3693.314,"end":3708.765,"text":"從頭到尾都是不知道即使律師坐在旁邊也是聽聽完之後回來補充非常的到位所以我覺得在調查程序要給老師相當的程序保障包括被檢舉的事項是什麼"},{"start":3710.302,"end":3731.749,"text":"要讓老師知道這個是必要的程序保障再來在調查程序其實學校蠻擔心老師去影響相關人也就是受訪談人我覺得這個也必須要明文避免接觸或是影響調查然後再來就是調查完之後校社會議一旦決議的調查報告"},{"start":3733.274,"end":3756.322,"text":"我個人認為在進到教評會或是考核會之前應該主動提供調查報告去識別化的調查報告要不然老師真的不知道我進去考核進去教評會我要面對什麼而不是調查報告只讓老師申請了才可以傳閱那以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們謝謝呂丹琪律師"},{"start":3760.95,"end":3767.27,"text":"下一位我們有請全國教師工會總聯合會的陳偉雲理事"},{"start":3776.56,"end":3805.66,"text":"主席还有部长还有我们现场与会的先进大家早安大家好我是全国教师工会总统联合会的理事以及台南市教育产业工会的理事长陈卫云那今天来到这边参加这个解决教师荒校师会议检讨以及策进公听会我想代表我们全教总还有我们各地方工会老师的心声跟大家做一些报告那我们全教的立场很简单就是废除校师会议制度就是废除校师会议制度为什么呢"},{"start":3806.841,"end":3833.283,"text":"因為我們認為在目前現場上關於這個校事會議已經讓現場老師普遍非常的反彈有非常非常高的不安全感老師甚至連不是只有投訴連鼓勵學生都會害怕我們學校老師跟我說他想要鼓勵學生去參加台語的一個比賽因為他覺得學生的台語講得非常好閩南語講得非常好結果學生告訴他老師你強迫我我就告你"},{"start":3834.69,"end":3851.463,"text":"老師你強迫我去那你可以啊你就買個iPhone 17 Plus給我請問一下老師怎麼幹呢現在不是只有管教是連鼓勵學生都有困難再來我們就程序跟教師法考核辦法已經重複而且衝突"},{"start":3852.183,"end":3875.801,"text":"再來因為調查門檻太低一個投訴就要開始啟動所有調查再來大量增加學校的行政量大家如果看到最近屏東一個老師他在家裡過世等一下我們屏東的理事長可能也會稍微講一下所以還有包含很多的案件都沒有事實基礎再來正因為這樣所以還到今天的問題解決教師荒沒有優秀人才要進入教育現場請問怎麼辦"},{"start":3879.344,"end":3893.307,"text":"其實我想講的是我們非常強烈譴責教育部這一次的修法上個星期五公布了草案成為我們剛才桃園的夥伴說的公告之後真的是造成大家更大的絕望今天"},{"start":3894.557,"end":3920.499,"text":"立委幫我們召開這個公聽會其實是非常想要收集大家的意見可是教育部在上禮拜公佈根本讓我們覺得沒有尊重今天的公聽會正在收集意見就還可以公佈這個草案再來我們認為這樣子的草案根本沒有辦法解決困境會有小案大辦甚至情緒性的爛訴而且老師現在好像面臨雙軌包含考核的辦法部分搞不好都要接受到更多的調查"},{"start":3921.159,"end":3945.048,"text":"所以根本沒有辦法給老師更多的補償跟強化正當的程序所以我們認為這次的草案會讓現場更加重負擔跌床駕屋而且造成教師法裡面的考核辦法這些兩套程序不斷的同時在進行當中現場不只行政還有老師的雙重審查負擔會越來越重越來越重"},{"start":3946.929,"end":3973.352,"text":"我們認為教育部告訴我們說大小案都要進入校事會議他認為要解決這個問題可是我們在草案當中並沒有看到提高受理的門檻還有校事會裡面這五個人裡面還要再找三個人從五人當中找三個人來受理其實根本沒有做任何的改變只是形式上的更動還有在實質效果上並沒有解決到惡意檢舉這些問題等一下我們會一併的跟大家提供"},{"start":3974.912,"end":4004.472,"text":"因此我們認為這個草案沒有補強老師因為無辜受害的補償機制對於被濫訴的老師被無辜受害老師大家都說我們走一個程序調查完老師就沒事了可是真的是這樣嗎老師身心的煎熬誰可以來補償他老師設置這中間受傷的部分有辦法補償嗎沒有再來沒有辦法遏止無成本的一個匿名檢舉網路公審還有社群輿論的放大現在大家在網路上看到東西看到媒體上的公"},{"start":4005.172,"end":4033.528,"text":"新聞就會開始來檢舉然後開始來投訴開始來調查來整政策方向也偏離了改善教師房所要的穩定環境因此我們認為這一次的修法不是改善是加深混亂加速老師退場如果這個草案強行通過受害的不只是老師更是孩子的未來因此我們呼籲教育部要重新檢視這個制度提高門檻改善流程還有要建立一個補償機制"},{"start":4034.268,"end":4052.42,"text":"那再回過頭來講因為今天立委幫我們召開這個公聽會讓各界的聲音希望可以進來所以我們再一次強調我們的立場就是要廢除消失會議因為目前最大狀況就是小案大辦民粹至上以及無差別的受理因此我們認為所有的截屏程序既然"},{"start":4053.56,"end":4080.418,"text":"校士會議是要處理停聘解聘不需聘的老師那麼我們就應該回歸到教師法授權的還有專業審查剛剛有先進提到教評考核還有現在的專審會這些機制就夠用了為什麼還要一直有校士會議出來另外前置的協調明確的授理你們看這一些才有辦法避免爛數那麼今天的提剛有提到我們要怎麼樣去處理這些問題那我想還是要針對目前的問題去提出一些診斷"},{"start":4081.579,"end":4100.965,"text":"剛剛有提到小安大辦順從民粹學校被迫受理要轉函受理不成比例匿名檢舉氾濫這些等等的都是目前現階段所有的問題那我們的提綱有一個提到如果要沒有退俗消失會要如何精進以上是以下是一些建議第一個當然就是加強協調我們的親師溝通"},{"start":4104.059,"end":4124.862,"text":"要很明確受理只有教師法14條到16條還有18條非性平事件的停聘解聘案件禁止匿名檢舉還要明確受理由學校來判斷不要由消息會議判斷禁止主管機關轉函特別是很多縣市教育主管機關都喜歡轉函到學校去要求調查這是嘉義縣的一個公文"},{"start":4125.702,"end":4145.175,"text":"這個是在網路上新聞媒體上看到來自新聞的一個報導所以他們就開始要求學校轉函這個很明確在最近發給學校的直接要求學校召開校事會議直接要求學校你要把簽到表檢核表所有的佐證記錄都要送來這很明顯就是教育主管機關直接指導學校調查"},{"start":4145.775,"end":4168.212,"text":"另外還有更誇張的學校已經調查完了校事會議已經確定完了結果教育局處說我不受理請你重新開會所以根本就是教育局管計官不斷地在要求學校辦案這是非常嚴重的那還有我們台南的案例非常非常的多連一個很簡單的小事情都有時候調查兩年以上做到兩年以上"},{"start":4168.932,"end":4196.762,"text":"調查兩年最後還是只有一個很小很小甚至可以連不用懲處所以為什麼要讓老師身心煎熬我們真的覺得一定要廢除校事會議那最後一點點時間我要說的是教育部真的要好好認真檢視這個問題不要再當各個部會的一個宣傳部好好的面對教師旺的問題好好的解決校事會議再不解決校事會議接下來下一步我們就要好好面對教育部的所有問題了謝謝大家"},{"start":4198.8,"end":4222.029,"text":"好 我們謝謝我們陳韋芸理事那當然主席在這邊來說明跟報告一下其實那個教育部他所公告的其實是一個預告的草案那今天的公聽會其實非常的重要因為我們希望教育部在今天的公聽會之後我們在各個面向的專家學者還有我們的韋芸的發言教育部回去以後可以去思考"},{"start":4222.529,"end":4247.5,"text":"到底校事會議是存是廢而且如果要修正的話是就可以更細緻更完善所以在之前那個是就是預告草案今天我們這個公聽完畢以後我相信教育部應該會有一份更完整的資料出來所以這邊跟大家做說明好 接下來因為我們柯之恩委員跟陳培瑞委員都到現場來了我們就先有請柯之恩委員發言"},{"start":4254.017,"end":4273.026,"text":"谢谢主席今天召开这样一场会议我刚也很高兴听到主席特别提到就是说只是一个草案所以透过今天很多的意见的一个汇流可能还可以做出一些的修正那我想今天主席特别召开这个会议无非就是希望能够解决现在亲师之间的一个问题"},{"start":4273.686,"end":4288.022,"text":"那无可否认的我们现在因为有非常多的关卡所以让我们很多的老师在面临这个士气还有认为说这个校师会议里面对于他们很多的这个士气的一个打击受到一个非常大的影响"},{"start":4288.663,"end":4308.732,"text":"我想我个人今天站在这个地方不是只有一个立法委员我本身是26年来从事狮子培育的教育工作者很多的学生都是第一线站上去当老师或者是校长但同样的我也是两个孩子的母亲一路陪孩子的成长过程里面我也看到孩子的同学"},{"start":4309.452,"end":4338.042,"text":"其实也受到老师一些真的是让他心灵受伤的一些的一个待遇而这个过程当中家长也不晓得该怎么办那这个孩子更是不晓得该怎么办所以说呢介于这个家长跟老师之间我觉得这是一个非常难解的一个问题那我认为教育部今天所提出来这个校事会议我想请部长还有国教署长很清楚知道你们有心要解决可是呢我从我第九届立委到现在第十一届的立委"},{"start":4338.662,"end":4365.717,"text":"怎么还是在讨论这个问题很显然校园里面当中留不住老师也让家长一股气所以这个问题到底是透过制度的问题已经做了这么多的精进但是呢很显然真的是亲事问题有因此得到一些缓解吗显然是没有所以到底是制度的问题还是是人的问题我觉得今天我们应该透过这个机会大家好好的平心契合的来好好来思考一下"},{"start":4366.357,"end":4384.805,"text":"有关校师会议所造成老师的一些心理的负担特别是一些烂书的这个层层的问题还有造成很多时候教师荒也无非也是这样除了这个诱因不够之外受到学校里面太多太多事情以前我们说严师出高徒现在呢"},{"start":4385.225,"end":4402.494,"text":"严师面对高徒敢不敢去给他训练可能要看看这位高徒他到底有没有这个韧性或看看这个家长有没有办法让孩子能够信任老师所以太多过去我们所想的事情完全没有办法在现在的教育体制上面特别是媒体来做发言我刚刚"},{"start":4402.914,"end":4425.092,"text":"一路过来都是听到老师的声音可能等一下会有更多家长团体的一个声音那我们就先来看看目前教育部所成立的看出来这个法案当中我们先提出了几点当然教育部特别提到了一个所谓的匿名但是呢匿名或许是可以减少一些所谓滥诉的问题但是呢匿名不代表"},{"start":4426.013,"end":4445.385,"text":"如果说你匿名的话不代表这个事实不存在有很多人你可能从很多的网络或等等之间目前教育部是不受理但是呢这些可能也基于一些事实的一个因素那如果说即使是匿名对不起很多的家长被匿名呢他还是担心他是不是还是会曝露出来"},{"start":4445.865,"end":4473.524,"text":"所以它这整个的配套有没有办法让这个检举的家长他得到充分的一个保障我觉得台湾真的是就像立法院也没有什么党团之间也没有什么所谓这个可以隐藏住的秘密我相信在学校也不会所以到底它这个配套有没有办法让这个即使匿名的有这么安全的可以讲出所有的事实我觉得这个部分是一定要提出更严谨的这样子的一个程序第二个我觉得还是有点"},{"start":4474.204,"end":4492.302,"text":"我真的觉得看了我就觉得非常的有点想可笑啊报告第二页建立亲师沟通的防务机制然后上面写着基于教育专业跟辅导巡堂观客亲师沟通行政务坛跟其他有效的方法部长啊这个叫做可以营造亲师沟通我五十年前讨车就是这样啊好不好"},{"start":4493.863,"end":4519.344,"text":"怎么到现在你认为这就是有办法达到亲事沟通吗我去巡堂一下干嘛一下我就有办法达到公共吗这个我现在一二三页真的要重新写了这个部分里面完全没有办法建立这样子的一个亲事沟通预防的机制你要不要亲自示范一下这样就有办法解决了吗哪有这么办法容易有这办法解决现在就不会大家坐在这个地方了所以这个部分里面还有有关于增进增烈辅佐人"},{"start":4519.864,"end":4535.549,"text":"再先收證再確定是否受理這也很矛盾你這個輔助人士告訴我們說有很多當事人因為不按一些法規所以你需要一個類似像家長或是校外或是律師的輔助人那重點來了那你這個可以請輔助人來以利調查"},{"start":4537.33,"end":4551.344,"text":"輔助人這樣部分你不是先蒐證再確定是否已經受理了嗎那你已經在蒐證就已經進去調查程序了不是嗎所以說這個東西有沒有代表受理這有很重要嗎這個程序到底怎麼樣我也看了也覺得一頭霧水啊"},{"start":4552.765,"end":4570.85,"text":"所以说已经有两个问题我也觉得很奇怪了然后再来呢你说你要界定清楚当初是因为教评会你们认为是官官相护师师相护所以才会造成需要一个校事会议那校事会议里面调查成员里面目前来说是校外校外部分当中"},{"start":4571.63,"end":4596.507,"text":"有没有接受一个专业的这个所谓的处理那你这个专业到什么样的一个程度那通常这个调查小组进到我们教室会议之后呢以过去的来说的话很多人就很难去反驳那当然就有非常多的老师他觉得他在被调查的时候他很多时候他没有收到去这个去话的这样子的调查的说明以至于他进入那个现场的时候他是非常忐忑不安的"},{"start":4597.788,"end":4618.485,"text":"所以呢具体的做法是你有没有办法一开始在受理的时候就分流很多时候不需要走程序你就可以在第一关就可以把它删掉这样去真正进入到这个程序的时候是要非常严重的那在这个运送的时候呢我们就要特别了解你这整个过程当中让进去的当事人有没有办法事先了解"},{"start":4618.885,"end":4633.432,"text":"它是基於什麼樣的理由然後呢我們這些所謂的調查小組是專業部分裡面有沒有辦法更可以廣納不同的方式的以在教師的教評來說我們是有三個校外人員可是進到我們教評會的時候因為大學老師比較會大鳴大發"},{"start":4636.613,"end":4662.982,"text":"所以呢很多时候他接受了这样的调查结果完之后他可以说出他的想法然后甚至这个调查规则只是一个参考我们还有很多必须意见的处理可是在中小学的校事会议可能基于文化的关系很多时候调查小组的决定可能就会在校事会你们就变成最后的决定那这个决定当中所谓的调查人员里面的专业还有没有纳入更多家长或是老师的意见"},{"start":4663.482,"end":4692.942,"text":"这个部分有没有办法在未来修法当中可以所以你要进去我具体的提出来的分流的程序一定要弄好不需要走程序的就自动在第一关弄掉当然如果要进入程序的时候可不可以让当事人可以怀抱一个他知道今天要去受死的理由到底是什么他可以得到什么样的协助他可以怎么样得到让他自己的权益受到一个大的保障如果这些东西让他符合的我说实在的已经确证确凿了老师真正要受到这个部分里面"},{"start":4693.562,"end":4709.066,"text":"他或許在那個程序上情緒上或者是真正已經是讓他覺得我沒有什麼好說了那也起碼讓人家得到死的安心吧所以我個人還是一句話站在這邊語重心長從過去不要說是第九教到第十一屆從當家長開始走當"},{"start":4711.847,"end":4735.18,"text":"学校家那个老师的学生开老师学生当老师我是他的老师开始这个问题亲事问题2025年了怎么还在讨论这个问题所以教育部这样子的一个不管你是精进的消息会一点2.0或是3.0如果没有办法解决这样的问题的话到6.0我都觉得还是非常失望所以大家今天"},{"start":4735.68,"end":4761.421,"text":"希望在最后的时候不管是国教署长或是教育部长能够收集意见能够给我们一个彼此之间都还能够接受的否则呢说实在的我们外委员考不好可以当到第十四届第五届你考不好那个时候呢你还是要坐在这个地方再来解决亲事之间的问题那我们这个时候到底在干嘛好不好我孩子都已经三十岁的我怎么还在讨论亲事之间该怎么解决非常的感慨各位"},{"start":4764.892,"end":4782.618,"text":"好 谢谢柯之恩委员那接下来我们稍等一下我们有一位专家学者又到场了我们欢迎桃园市教育产业工会吴明玉理事长谢谢你好 那接下来我们有请陈培宇委员发言"},{"start":4787.244,"end":4807.168,"text":"好謝謝主席那我非常開心看到今天舉辦這個公聽會但是在今天公聽會關於這個命題之前我想要針對今天公聽會的命題提出一個更正現場一直說教師荒教師荒現場也有非常多在現場執教的老師們我相信你們看見教師荒其實是代理教師荒"},{"start":4807.888,"end":4835.502,"text":"根據我們跟國教署還有教育部要的統計資料不管是台北市新北市大家覺得生活成本比較高的地方好像都沒有人要去應聘正式教師嗎事實上不是的到最近一個新的年度其實相關報考人數還有錄取人數我想要以新北市為例國小的部分報名人數有5000多位而開缺只有700多位而正式錄取也才500多位國中的"},{"start":4835.942,"end":4857.353,"text":"部分甚至來到2000多位想要報考而開卻只有231到高中的部分是4000多開卻只有110各縣市我就不再唸了所以我想要拜託大家當我們在談教師荒的時候請證明為代理教師荒但為什麼會有代理教師荒我認為各位現場老師應該也都很清楚"},{"start":4857.793,"end":4886.218,"text":"不管是因為代理教師他們認為他們可能只有一年一聘或者是很多人認為代理教師工作沒有那麼有保障甚至他們用的是所謂的勞保不是工保甚至是有一些縣市在開代理教師缺的時候沒有告訴人家要兼任行政而等到人家上任之後才讓人家兼任行政所以我想所有現場的代理教師也好正式教師也好或者是教育部未來要開放所謂的夜師我相信大家都非常清楚其實"},{"start":4887.338,"end":4903.49,"text":"關鍵是代理教師荒但因為我們今天主題不是代理教師所以我就不再多說可是如果回到所謂的教師荒我當然知道有某一些特別的科目或是某一些學校確實在正式教師應聘的時候還是有一些困難"},{"start":4904.17,"end":4922.228,"text":"但大部分的困難其實落在代理教師我要拜託大家再次澄清那我想其實教育現場的困境不會只有校事會議如同剛剛柯委員所說的過去這麼多年來我們看到其實有薪資的問題有行政超量的問題甚至很多單位都把學校老師當成"},{"start":4923.069,"end":4944.253,"text":"要幫忙發布公文的地方例如說農業部來一個什麼公文國防部內政部各個部會都覺得學校老師有責任有義務要幫忙傳達相關政令這當然未來需要靠教育部多加協調不要讓各個部會都覺得學校老師有義務有責任要幫忙宣達這些事情那甚至還有薪資的部分"},{"start":4944.713,"end":4958.248,"text":"不過目前聽到教育部聽說在年底的時候可能會宣布導師加級主管職務加級還有終點費都會調整我們也樂於見到後續教育部有相關的規劃但我想這些事情確實我們要必須共同積極面對"},{"start":4959.81,"end":4981.654,"text":"第二個我想要回到第二個就是今天的主題談校事會議我們看到教育部公布相關草案跟辦法我們看到幾個重要的修正內容第一個建立親師生溝通機制第二個修訂學校可以受理或不受理的處理程序第三個校事會議納入教師代表跟家長代表我要說其實大方向看起來可能"},{"start":4982.034,"end":5006.554,"text":"這個修正解決了現在的某些困境但我認為不管是以老師或是家長或是學生都會很想問其實剛剛柯委員也在問了所謂受理跟不受理是誰來決定程序又是什麼而校式會議的教師代表如何真的可以滿足所有教師的期待家長代表會不會最後放進去的是恐龍家長反而讓老師更害怕"},{"start":5006.994,"end":5020.751,"text":"这些都是非常细致的问题我认为教育部要花时间处理真的非常的不容易所以我也想要试着提出一个可能性也是家庭教育的问题目前我们看到校园里面有非常多亲师冲突或者是"},{"start":5024.055,"end":5049.376,"text":"私生衝突 親師衝突或是親師生衝突常常來自很大的困境是因為家庭教育的匱乏我從上任的第一天就一直拜託教育部在家庭教育這件事情上要趕快加緊腳步過去我們認為孩子的教育好像放到學校裡面學學術性的科目是老師的責任好像在家裡就全部都是家長的責任但是這幾年"},{"start":5050.377,"end":5073.284,"text":"這近十年二十年有越來越多家長大聲疾呼告訴教育部告訴政府說我們開始面對數位原生世代的孩子我們真的不知道該怎麼辦我們希望政府給予我們更多的支持給予我們更多的資源來協助我們成為一個夠好的父母而當我們可以成為夠好的父母我們就有機會教出還不錯的孩子"},{"start":5073.784,"end":5097.166,"text":"進到校園裡面開始學習所謂學術型科目的時候開始跟著老師學習的時候不會有過度的親師生衝突但非常可惜在家庭教育這一塊過去我們委託地方家庭教育中心我們已經有了家庭教育法但很可惜相關預算相關資源跟相關政策視野真的都還跟不上現在的家長的需求"},{"start":5098.587,"end":5113.965,"text":"甚至在多年前台灣很重要的親子天下雜誌我記得在我的小孩還非常非常小的時候就已經提出所謂的直升機家長恐龍家長對於學校老師現場所造成的迫害我認為這件事情教育部真的不要再"},{"start":5115.896,"end":5134.362,"text":"遲緩了家庭教育的部分真的要拜託教育部用更多的資源讓行政院長讓總統知道在教育端我們的家庭教育真的非常的匱乏那同時我也要說校師會議裡面我們看到另外一個非常務實的困境在教育現場會欺負老師的其實不是只有家長"},{"start":5135.282,"end":5164.582,"text":"有的時候是老師會欺負老師有的時候是校長會欺負老師有的時候是主任會欺負老師我也想要舉相關的案例在上個禮拜新竹縣某一個國中有一個老師在學校輕生而他在輕生之前他才剛提出職場霸凌的申訴霸凌他的就是他的同事他的主管在更前一陣子屏東有一個國中的代理教師他去幫另外一個過勞死的代理教師出庭作證"},{"start":5166.063,"end":5181.279,"text":"結果被校方算賬而這個案件目前經過屏東縣政府認定是校長的職場霸凌所以校師會議裡面我們現在看見的好像只有輕師的困境但我要講"},{"start":5182.08,"end":5208.337,"text":"校園裡面常常很多時候為難老師的是現場的老師是現場的主任現場的校長我並沒有想要指責任何人因為所有還願意停留在第一線為孩子們付出跟家長共同工作的所有老師所有行政人員都值得尊敬但是我們的制度可不可以保障大家有更好的工作環境所以我今天想要持續對教育部呼籲家庭教育的部分"},{"start":5208.757,"end":5237.276,"text":"拜託持續另外我也想要試著提出一個全新的解方也想要拜託大家一併納入考慮跟討論我們有沒有機會成立一個第三方的專責機構不要讓學校單位最後變成一個司法審判單位因為也有很多老師來告訴我們他們在相關法律的調解跟相關專業建議底下確實有些事情他就可以走得還蠻順的可是我們甚至在校事會議這個"},{"start":5239.017,"end":5255.265,"text":"制度剛開始的時候我們還看到有校長現場的校長給我們看一個截圖非常荒謬有一群受過訓練的受過那個校事會議委外專業人才庫訓練的司法專業人員法律專業人員他們甚至組成一個外包承攬團"},{"start":5256.445,"end":5278.62,"text":"去跟很多校長說我就可以直接幫你組成這一團然後幫你們進學校處理這個事情而這樣的外包成懶團我們在第一時間就反映給教育部跟國教署我不確定現場現在還有沒有這樣的荒謬的狀況所以意思就是說當學校變成像法院我們只會調查處理案件但相關調查卻可能造成現場更多的撕裂跟傷害"},{"start":5279.1,"end":5280.041,"text":"所以我也想要勇敢"},{"start":5309.56,"end":5332.631,"text":"好 谢谢陈培云委员好 接下来我再来介绍我们现在到场的新竹县教育产业工会无难宴理事长欢迎您 谢谢好 接下来我想一样说明一下今天我们的公听会我们的这个大标完全没有错误我想解决教师慌是现在刻不容缓的议题"},{"start":5333.331,"end":5357.72,"text":"那教師荒當然呈如剛才以上我們這麼多專家學者跟委員所說的問題點很多包括待遇的問題退休制度的問題包括專業不受重視的問題包括行政無法減量甚至於沒有管教權這些都是造成我們的教師荒但是校師會議有可能是造成教師荒壓垮我們教師這個最後一個稻草"},{"start":5358.2,"end":5376.963,"text":"所以今天的這個標是完全沒有問題的而且我們要知道如果正式老師不慌我們何來代理教師慌所以我想這個都是要把它一體我們來做一個討論所以以上做一個說明那接下來我們有請翁國業律師來發言主席在座先進 大家好"},{"start":5385.641,"end":5400.878,"text":"今天來參加這個公聽會其實我本來在想我是以什麼樣的身份來參與的那麼有沒有我們議事裡面幫忙一下"},{"start":5406.682,"end":5429.39,"text":"時間先暫停一下可以嗎可以可以沒問題好那我們繼續我個人並不是校園事件專業調查人才庫裡面的人那我自己也從來沒有參與過調查案件不過我曾接了蠻多的校園事件在後面進入法律救濟爭議的這個程序那我沒有仔細數過不過應該超過30件以上我在觀察這些案件裡面其實在目前的校園事件這套制度在施行之前"},{"start":5430.21,"end":5448.801,"text":"109年这个校职会议政治制度实行之前其实教育部原本就有一个类似的制度在运作这个法规名称叫做处理高中以下学校不适应教师阴形注意事项其实这个注意事项里面它的运作方式跟目前的校园事件制度其实蛮像的但问题就来了为什么这一套制度之前109年之前其实已经运作了十几年了"},{"start":5449.461,"end":5467.112,"text":"我们甚至也看过很多的制度也完成一个调校报告有认定这个教师可能有不适任教学不利体罚最后给予教评会移送成处或是移送考核会成属其实都有但这套制度过去运作的十几年好像并没有引起像现在这几年校园事件引起这么大的一个反弹到底原因是什么"},{"start":5468.427,"end":5495.957,"text":"我认为校园事件这套制度从109年正式立法到现在为止其实它是把一个本来比较用柔性去处理的一个方式不管是用地方的政府的教育局或是学校校内行政组织去处理一个方式全部用校园事件一个正式的法律救济的途径来取代它的这个调查程序因为是正式的法律程序而且调查报告调查结果出炉之后是有拘束力的导致学校不得不一定要走这条路去走它必须要把程序走完"},{"start":5496.637,"end":5514.533,"text":"那包括剛才陳理事也有提到如果說不把程序走完不把老師移送成署的話可能地方政府教育局還會退回要求說學校你怎麼沒有把這個當事人移送成署呢所以這樣的程序導致他一定要走下去他引發了很大很大的一個成本而且這個成本可能已經超過原本這套制度所要去實現的目的"},{"start":5515.934,"end":5544.978,"text":"这一次国教署在上个月10月1号做成一个韩式我想在座各位可能都知道这个韩式大幅的减缩目前校师会议制度主要适用了这个范围其实这个办法本身它就是只是针对有严重程度的解聘这样的一个教师如果程度没有到解聘的时候其实并不需要移送校师会议处理没有到这样程度的案件其实不需要召开校师会议的话为什么现在绝大部分的学校都还是乖乖的召开校师会议为什么还是那么的配合"},{"start":5546.26,"end":5566.193,"text":"我個人認為有一個關鍵的原因可能是在主管機關身上這裡的主管機關不是只有地方政府教育局也包括中央也包括教育部這個也是剛才陳理事所提到的其實包括從中央的教育部到地方政府的教育局長時間都在操作一個叫做退回的機制他會要求學校必須要照著主管機關的意思來完成調查不管是受理或不受理"},{"start":5566.633,"end":5592.454,"text":"不管是调查报告写完之后结论满不满意不管是考核会的决议教评会的决议主管机关都有一个退回的权限这个权限的行使的方式让学校的行政基端行政端形成了一个寒蝉的效应他会担心如果我不照着主管机关的意见来走的话后续学校的行政人员特别是校长他可能会被惩处一旦这个寒蝉效应引起来学校的行政端特别是校长他势必要"},{"start":5593.295,"end":5613.312,"text":"選擇啟動校士會議因為不走校士會議背後會有主管機關來追究我的責任那就只好啟動校士會議但這樣子所犧牲的代價其實就是老師老師就是必須要被丟進這個校士會議的程序裡面去走我個人代理很多的這個學校教師的爭議其實很多的老師都會提到他們不管是被選為教評委員不管是考核委員"},{"start":5613.952,"end":5637.284,"text":"即使在座的委員認為說這個案件好像沒有必要照調查報告歷件來懲處或是這個案件的嚴重程度應該沒有到解聘可是在座其實人事主人幾乎都會代為轉達局端教育局這邊或是主管機關這邊立場的時候局端認為你就是要懲處各位委員你們今天如果沒有通過懲處決議的話我們一定會被局端特委大家會一直開開開開開到下去開到通過懲處為止而且局端還會來追究各位委員的責任"},{"start":5638.504,"end":5658.38,"text":"這個是在學校教評會考核會現場經常出現的一個對話的過程這個案件是我目前正在處理的案件可能字面會很大各位可以看到這個案件裡面其實這是一個台南的案件這個老師在校職會議調查完畢之後移送考核會考核會全部一共開了六次會議決議不懲處被台南市教育局也退回六次比賽誰的氣比較長就對了"},{"start":5660.081,"end":5676.846,"text":"基本上走到第七次開會的時候委員已經妥協了因為他們沒有力氣再開下去他們只好把老師移送懲處這是一個台南市的案件這是我目前手上正在進行中的一個案件這個字可能比較小這是一個新北市的案件這個案件裡面家長對於老師提出檢舉之後"},{"start":5678.396,"end":5693.544,"text":"學校不想要受理可是新北市教育局要求學校一定要受理於是新北市教育局派了一位科員到學校來召開會議這個會議裡面這位主席就是這個教育局的科員他直接就說這個局段處理不當管教案件比較實際中肯的處理方式就是召開校師會議"},{"start":5694.885,"end":5718.551,"text":"那家長也接受說對那就要召開校室會議主席就是這位教育局的客人也說現階段來講開校室會議是最公正的所以校長最後就決定開校室會議對校長來講他認為最公正的方式其實就是開校室會議因為這樣子局端不會有意見家長也不會有意見那老師有沒有意見這個不在校長的考量範圍之內所以導致地方政府包括教育局包括校長會認為說我們要安撫家長"},{"start":5720.931,"end":5745.82,"text":"安撫檢舉者安撫投訴者最好的方式就是開校職會議就算不啟動調查不啟動校職會議我也怕會被教育局給退回所以導致我們剛才一再講爛訴就是這樣形成的大案小案全部丟進這台絞肉機裡面大家全部進去絞看起來似乎是中立客觀實際上它會引發一個非常非常巨大的行政成本也就是爛訴也就是目前第一線的教師感到恐慌的一個主要的原因"},{"start":5747.369,"end":5763.221,"text":"我個人對於校式會議到底要怎麼去修正其實我想在座各位先進剛才已經提出很多的意見我比較想要強調主管機關這邊的立場我認為校式會議制度在修正上面一定要關注到主管機關的立場我再強調一次這裡的主管機關不是只有地方政府教育局還包括教育部自己"},{"start":5763.661,"end":5781.514,"text":"因為很多的學校是直屬於教育部教育部自己也長期以來在使用退回這個機制那我認為如果沒有打打解聘這個程度的案例的時候其實主管機關必須要知所節制要慎用這個退回機制要尊重校內主管包括剛剛大家一再提到了包括專審會包括教評會包括考核會的這個流程"},{"start":5782.415,"end":5799.677,"text":"第二点如果是大家最担心的学校会去包庇这个行为人的话其实目前的解冰办法的后半段已经有一个审议会这个机制这个是可以处理的但我认为审议会这个机制必须要再更公开更透明包括让各界知道说审议会委员到底是谁他们怎么去运作也要让当事人有去陈述意见的机会"},{"start":5800.357,"end":5819.275,"text":"最後一點是國調署建制的這個校士會議人才庫其實相關的案例其實有一些進入行政就緝程序之後有一些爭議的案例我們這邊也建議國調署應該要整理相關的案例讓大家了解說校士會議運作上面哪些程序跟實體上面可能發生錯誤的地方讓更多的這些行政主管跟校士會議的人才可以知道如何去調整謝謝好 謝謝翁國燕律師"},{"start":5824.553,"end":5831.228,"text":"接下來我們有請我們台灣EDU教育協會陳映嘉常務監事"},{"start":5837.782,"end":5855.051,"text":"朝偉各位與會先進還有各位關心教育的朋友們大家好我是台灣EDL教育協會的常務監事陳英佳EDUS是一個由大學生與高中生組成的學生團體對我們來說如何在讓學生的聲音在教育現場被聽到是我們在意"},{"start":5856.131,"end":5882.029,"text":"并且最核心的诉求因为如此我想首先要来谈教育部日前的新闻稿主要的修法方向不受理匿名检举对此教育部部长强调不应该躲在看不见的地方五地方我不否认现在的制度下其实匿名检举是造成部分恶意投诉的检举管道因此有限度的限缩"},{"start":5886.671,"end":5914.98,"text":"但我們擔憂不少在其他制度下的申訴管道其實曾經有發生過多起校方要求地方教育局處應該要提供檢舉人的姓名或者是可視別的個人資訊進而這些檢舉人的個人資料被外流的事件在檢舉人的隱私還有安全沒有辦法被有效保護的情形下"},{"start":5915.9,"end":5944.507,"text":"誠如剛才柯志恩委員提到的匿名不代表不實倘若這些學生轉而向民意代表或者是民間的GEO媒體管道協助而不依循原先設計的管道來檢舉的話教育現場真的樂見看到這樣的情形嗎因此我們主張此次修法應該要考量到師生特別的權勢關係的特殊性那涉及霸凌性品提拔等案件且附有"},{"start":5945.407,"end":5968.753,"text":"證據者應該有限度的保留匿名檢舉的管道那在近期校士會議的討論中其實校士的行政檢量其實也是各界關注的焦點之一我們完全認同這樣的討論的方向因此針對就是受理的機制校士會議原本明定的應該是受理案件才要召開但因為"},{"start":5970.113,"end":5997.597,"text":"多数的委员其实都不具法治的专业背景所以基于外界压力大多都会直接受理也就会导致现在承担率不到4%的现象我们主张校区会应该要改由地方教育局处并聆聘三位代表不同专业的民间团体或是外部委员来组成调查的委员会那访谈相关的人士撰写调查报告并厘清案情"},{"start":5998.217,"end":6012.469,"text":"那對此其實教育部部長也有表示過校區會議涉及教學專業應該要教會給學校來處理但我們認為就是案件的受理機制其實不應該因校而異所以教有地方教育"},{"start":6013.635,"end":6036.818,"text":"局處來主責的話可以保持受理的門檻是一致的也能有效的減輕各校的行政人員負擔並讓案件的處理不受校內人為因素的干預而在上週我們有看到教育部有預告解聘辦法的草案其實不少教師跟教育團體都有分表示異因"},{"start":6037.378,"end":6054.505,"text":"那顯見利害關係人其實對修法其實沒有高度的共識那因此我們也主張在14日的預告期間結束以後國教署應該要收攏今日就是公聽會大家表達的意見再次召開研商的會議那邀集教師團體向團體兒少代表民間團體出席"},{"start":6057.787,"end":6074.622,"text":"來改善校式會議的制度那此外針對此次的修法歷程我們認為教育部的檢討態度其實相對消極因為早在五月底的時候其實就立法委員在教委委會來公開質詢"},{"start":6076.143,"end":6100.901,"text":"教育团体这样的团体其实也在开学以后九月纷纷召开多场的记者会但据我们所知国教署迟至十月的上旬才来召开草案的演唱会议而且也没有纳入学生或者是儿少团体的代表我们呼吁教育部的演唱会议或者是像今天的场合的立法院的公听会应该要符合儿童权利公约的儿少表意精神来广大儿少的参与"},{"start":6101.881,"end":6123.379,"text":"接著也不只是今天討論的校區會議教育部近期的幾項決策包含行動載具管理班班有先如校園愛心球第七節課成為教育部由上而下的行程政策的方向引發教育現場大力反彈以後再回應暫緩實施顯著政策的形成其實缺乏足夠的溝通"},{"start":6124.059,"end":6141.295,"text":"那我想教育部應該要加強跟教師團體、教養團體、兒少團體的溝通管道特別是在政策研擬階段應該要納入中央跟地方兒少代表還有國教署清教師的意見那避免等到民間團體召開記者會立法委員諮詢圖爭教育現場紛擾以後才對外界改口說或審慎研議檢討改進"},{"start":6150.183,"end":6173.841,"text":"那最後我想校士會議的設置初衷其實是為了要淘汰在校園現場的不適任教師那在檢討制度以前我們主張就是不應該要急於一時的貿然廢除這個制度但如果利益良好的制度已經干擾到教育現場簡建共創更透明更公開的制度其實是當務之急"},{"start":6174.321,"end":6196.244,"text":"那其他教育部在未來修法或是改革前能聽見更多來自教育現場不管是教師家長或是學生的聲音提出更保障師生權益的修法草案我想這也能回應我們今年教育部的教師節記者會的訴求教師優老師優教育一定優那以上發言謝謝大家"},{"start":6198.766,"end":6221.651,"text":"好 謝謝我們陳映嘉常務監事我們接下來要有請馮橋蘭好 沒關係我們接下來是先請馮橋蘭執行長下一位我們有請林倩琦委員 好不好然後倩琦委員結束以後我們先休息五分鐘好 我們有請我們馮橋蘭執行長"},{"start":6227.855,"end":6250.869,"text":"主席還有我們與會的先進朋友大家好我是人本基金會的喬蘭關於今天要討論的題目就是校事會議的相關修正的問題也就是不適合老師的淘汰的制度問題那我們是先提出四個方向這是也是面對最近大家一些討論一些心情跟一些思考我們在想說一個制度的修正到底要有怎樣的方向感"},{"start":6251.309,"end":6277.78,"text":"所以我們就提出了公正透明倫理跟保障這四個方向感那公正的部分就包括說一定是調查要公正嘛以及調查必須要確實然後它的結果呢也必須要有相當的合理性那透明的部分就包括說整個制度的過程當中它是要能夠清楚透明那能夠拿到調查報告的人都應該要拿到調查報告能夠知道相關的狀況然後包括像剛剛所提到的教育局要退回這個決議或是"},{"start":6281.101,"end":6309.507,"text":"這個考核會做出不懲處的決議等等的相關的依據跟理由是否有機會透明而可以被檢視而可以被瞭解那包括這個透明要關心到如何可以苛責這個問題另外制度的部分要能夠讓我們可以建立教師專業倫理那這也是牽扯到說事實上我們在處理不勝教師的過程當中也在讓大家看到我們這個教育界裡頭教育體制裡頭對於教師的專業倫理的門檻在哪裡比如說在2014年修法教師法修法明定"},{"start":6309.927,"end":6337.015,"text":"性侵的老師必須要解聘那是因為在2014年之前非常多性侵學生的老師透過教評會之後沒有解聘只有停聘或是要求請假在這個狀況下修法明定說至少我們教育界我們教師界我們這個教育這個校園我們是不會隨便容許性侵的老師繼續在學校的這個部分的對於專業人員一定非常的重要包括在2019年的修法把體罰明確的放進來說體罰會解聘喔這很重要"},{"start":6337.515,"end":6366.895,"text":"让大家知道说教育界教师的专业伦理里头是不允许体罚的事件存在的所以淘汰不慎老师的其中一个隐含在文化当中的就是我们在专业伦理上的建立是什么而这个会保障教师的专业的尊严同时这个保障里头要保障老师跟学生双方的权益在制度当中是否可以办到这是我们要检视我们制度的修正发展方向一个重要的几个方向这是我们想提出来跟大家讨论的从这个状况下来看"},{"start":6369.619,"end":6378.233,"text":"他不會動那我就按喔好好好OK了解好"},{"start":6379.065,"end":6403.773,"text":"所以接著我們就來看在整個淘汰卜生老師的相關制度當當有些變化剛剛幾位先進也提到說之前是有教評會跟專審會的處理那確實也因為引發很多關於師生相互的問題或者是有校長運用這個機制來強害老師的問題等等的所以說大家在這個制度上有一個新的討論就是我們在2019年列了一個校史會議那校史會議它有某種狀況上"},{"start":6404.913,"end":6428.244,"text":"似乎也解決了一些問題比如說還有外部調查委員比如說校士會的組成當中會要求說有怎樣的組成的相關的人士但是呢也有他有所不足的地方那包括就是說在調查報告的取得的部分只有在做出解聘補續聘停聘的時候家長才可以拿到調查報告在這狀況下他的相關的陳情機制就沒有辦法充分"},{"start":6429.935,"end":6455.073,"text":"那所以呢在對於這個校士會議的下一步的修正呢基本上目前教育部所提的草案呢有蠻多可以參酌之處啦就包括就是說匿名的檢舉也必須要被處理那但是它當中還有一些可以更進一步思考的事情就是校士會議的委員的組成我們是否可以進一步思考說不要只有身份代表因為事實上在校士會碰到的狀況是"},{"start":6456.551,"end":6482.321,"text":"當你是校事會議你的組成單位是放在學校我們全國這麼多所學校都要組成校事會議然後都要有相關的人能夠了解相關的程序有相關的人可以抓緊相關的行政要怎麼處理其實對學校來講是一個很大的負擔我們校事會議的委員當中假使有比較了解相關狀況的人譬如他是調查人才庫的人他對於整個學校的進行就會有相當的協助另外一個在校事會議的修訂的方向"},{"start":6482.921,"end":6506.489,"text":"我們也支持家長團體以及剛剛學生團體有提出來的就是我們是不是要考慮相關的分流機制要放到縣市政府也就是縣市政府要擔負怎樣的身份跟角色跟責任這件事情是要被納進來思考的那同時調查報告的處理在目前的這個公共部的法案當中還沒有充分的完整那這也是我們進一步應該要相關處理的部分"},{"start":6508.12,"end":6524.646,"text":"但另外一個我們想在這個表格當中先提出來的就是長期而言長期思考來說我們是有覺得也許我們要考慮用第三方公正機制來處理我們相關的爭議跟不順教室處理的問題也就是說不要只放在學校的責任"},{"start":6525.546,"end":6548.988,"text":"而是把它拉出來成為不管是在局處縣市政府或者我們中央成立一個單位而它是一個第三方處理的機制它可以有從兒少全法的角度來思考的或目前幼教法的模式的或國家兒童權利機構的或是由縣市政府直接來處理一個調查的處理的機制的專職的機構都可以但這是一個進步我們可以思考的事情要長久來思考的話"},{"start":6550.129,"end":6576.154,"text":"那同時這是剛剛所提到的在這個法律上面我們覺得調查報告需要處理的問題因為制度應該要保證雙方都能夠獲得調查報告以及相關的救濟那另外我這邊也要對教育部跟教育局提出一些呼籲我有覺得在這一次整個討論消失會議跟爛輸的問題教育局跟教育部的態度太過消極太過不充分太過不積極因為事實上以目前國教署所拿出來的數據來說消失會議一年是1100多件"},{"start":6577.754,"end":6606.047,"text":"那在這個比例上來說它並不是一個召開頻率非常高的一個制度但為什麼會形成爛數的感覺或爛數的現象這是一個教育部跟教育局必須要說明的事情那在這個狀況之下教育部跟教育局在很多事情上並沒有明確的表達態度包括在高雄市教育局其實高雄市的教師團體提出說這個在高雄的這個校士會的數據它用國教署一整年全國的數據來說成是高雄市的數據"},{"start":6606.707,"end":6632.256,"text":"在這個狀況之下 高雄市教育局並沒有提出任何的說明跟反駁這一定會形成大家對事情不瞭解在視義未明 理義未清的狀況之下有很多的問題會發生那另外呢 有很多沒有解片的案件呢它其實是關鍵到我們的標準的合不合理性包括高雄青年國中 它用去棍球 球桿打了五個學生社政已經開罰了 但是他學校認定輕微 這有審解士林的學校也是發生這個狀況"},{"start":6633.376,"end":6659.168,"text":"他傷害罪起訴了但是情節輕微不處分那蘆洲的這個學校的這個小孩他心肌住院了但他只有考核處分這些標準到底要放在哪裡國際上的學者他的標準是提到說我們不應該以他是否構成暴力殘忍我們應該要不是有他的程度來要求他是否受到傷害而是你看以他的行為是否構成暴力殘忍有入人格為標準那這些是我們在後續修法上要參考的"},{"start":6659.488,"end":6684.079,"text":"同時考核會 我在一分鐘同時考核會的調查呢它的相關處理也需要有相關的公正的保障包括說考核會的結果一旦出來之後呢家長是否可以拿到調查報告是否可以有所澄清要有澄清的機會就澄清的機會應該同時都保障另外體罰是體罰不要讓它跟教學不利混在一起教學不利的定義當中不應該包含體罰同時在犯的老師我們應該要有所處理"},{"start":6684.699,"end":6708.775,"text":"在我們相關文件有提到一位老師他已經這14年來都等於是被教育體制包庇而他這一次被開罰是13個兒少侵犯的案件被開罰這14年來他被開罰了13件兒少的侵犯但是他仍然只有解聘一年喔這個狀況下是否合理那另外呢這邊我要花一點點時間談我覺得教師的保障很重要我們有主張說應該要給老師一個支援系統"},{"start":6709.695,"end":6731.189,"text":"這個細元系統除了平常的教學之外重要的是在這個整個程序當中其實我覺得輔佐人的概念可能只放在一個辦案的思考裡頭但老師需要的不只是輔佐人的角色老師對於整個制度的不了解他碰到這個被申訴的時候心情的那個緊張跟害怕然後包括就算他這個事情有所解決了案子也算水落石出了可是他也許還需要一個修復式正義的過程"},{"start":6731.989,"end":6761.289,"text":"那这个过程当中我们到底整个教育体制提供怎样的行政资源系统给我们老师这非常的重要那在第三方处理制度的部分我们在文件上有相关不同的方式的说明也请各位参考也就是说长久来说我们可以考虑第三方的公正的处理机制但是现行的状况我们先把校事会议的处理能够做一个好的制度的修正以上 谢谢好 谢谢我们冯执行长那接下来我们有请林倩琪委员"},{"start":6772.245,"end":6783.11,"text":"謝謝我們主席 外媒林委員謝謝跟所有今天出席的專家學者們還有參與的夥伴們 大家好那麼感謝趙偉這一次有關於校事會議的這個公聽會來召開"},{"start":6787.913,"end":6816.189,"text":"我們知道整個台灣的少子化讓整個教育現場承受前所有的壓力然後班級數變少 學生數也變少教師跟代理教師也變少這樣一個結構性挑戰讓學校疲於奔命但是在教育第一線的老師又必須面對另一層的心理壓力也就是來自校士會議制度所衍生的濫訴與鬥爭這讓整個教師荒 雪上加霜"},{"start":6817.069,"end":6846.389,"text":"校士會原本的設計是為了讓學校有一個處理爭議與申訴的機制然後也需要兼顧學生的權益跟教室的工作權但是這幾年尤其是剛才我們聽到幾位學者還有專家提到的尤其是在這近八九年間整個實務運作上卻逐漸偏離了初中變成一個介於行政調查懲戒與人際鬥爭之間的灰色平台"},{"start":6847.449,"end":6865.205,"text":"整个事件是当案子被举发之后没有明确的一个受理门槛也没有严谨的程序规范导致变成匿名检举泛滥轻易的启动了调查之后又让被检举的老师陷入长情的冗长的程序跟巨大的心理压力"},{"start":6865.845,"end":6894.95,"text":"那我們從教育現場聽到很多的實例比如說匿名性一個模糊的指控就讓老師進入很久很久的一個調查程序那被檢舉的老師又要自我證明有的時候他根本不知道或者是他也沒有做一些事情然後自己要舉證然後還要接受很多查訪那等待結論的時間又很久即便最後清白了整個心理的創傷也是非常的大那這樣的制度真的符合教育部當時你們所要強調"},{"start":6895.63,"end":6912.167,"text":"的保障學生受教跟教師工作權嗎整個教師法的第29條規範了教師的解聘不續聘代聘或支遣的程序是中央主管機關機關被授權訂定的一個範圍和教師法第14條到第16條當中"},{"start":6914.97,"end":6929.386,"text":"並沒有要求學校一定要透過設置校事會議作為中介調查的機關那許多老師也認為這樣的制度設計已經架空了整個原有的機制像教師評審委員會或教師成績考核會的"},{"start":6930.507,"end":6954.846,"text":"相关的一个职权甚至会形成一些太上皇室的重叠体系让教师原本的程序保障受到侵蚀那在现行的制度底下呢学校已经有很多个机制例如教评会或教师考核会性评会学生申诉评议会那也负责不同领域的申诉跟审议又叠加了一个校师会议也形成了"},{"start":6955.566,"end":6972.003,"text":"跌床架屋更讓校園的爭議陷入一些交叉處理責任不明的困境很嚴重的就是一旦校事會議被誤用為政治鬥爭或人際報復的工具最終受害的不僅是教師而是整個教育體制的信任跟穩定"},{"start":6973.044,"end":6993.601,"text":"那麼教育部呢表示我們要精進這個流程嘛但是這個要回歸最主要當時是要處理不適人教師的一個制度初衷但是這個修補也沒有能夠解決制度失衡的問題反倒越來越失衡那也沒有辦法改變組織全能的諜床架屋的問題也沒有"},{"start":6994.942,"end":7018.975,"text":"辦法來挽回教師的尊嚴所以我們真正該問的是當時的教師法教評會跟校內的其他機制是不是可以涵蓋教師行為的檢核校事會議是不是有存在的必要這是我們要考量的原先的一些初衷究竟有沒有經過這一段時間的實施而處理了問題還是增加了更多的問題"},{"start":7020.015,"end":7049.433,"text":"本席沒有否定外部的監核機制但是很重要就是說我們要強化制度的比例原則跟正當程序對教師而言申訴跟調查應該有明確的門檻避免所謂的零成本的檢舉那麼對學生而言權益的保護也要有制度的保障而不是讓整個案件來陷入程序反覆像剛才我們聽到一些專家談到就是這個程序上一直來來回回的那沒有人"},{"start":7049.853,"end":7065.105,"text":"真的能夠處理這樣子的問題那麼教育現場的鬥爭文化因此而持續蔓延那受傷的也不是只有教師包括學生 家長 校園整個校園的信任關係都被破壞我這邊提出三點建議"},{"start":7066.306,"end":7091.862,"text":"我們是不是第一應該重新來檢視校事會議既有的機制跟學校原有的制度性的會議平台是不是有功能重疊那如果需要再強化的部分應該明確界定各組織的職權那第二個部分是強化程序的門檻跟教師的保障要求具名檢舉或複具事證撤回檢舉應及終止調查"},{"start":7094.764,"end":7123.785,"text":"那麼校士會議的人才庫我想這是進入了一個應該檢視的階段那另外剛才有專家提到第三方公正機制那這個機制假設有所謂的培訓制度在教師的專業跟法制的專業上那還要有一些時間跟個案的一些理解那這個部分要避免外面的行政對不起外行干預教師的專業這個是很重要的我想"},{"start":7125.085,"end":7131.649,"text":"這幾年應該也面對這樣子的問題有誰真正能夠來評斷這一些每一個個案它所有的細節"},{"start":7133.322,"end":7159.179,"text":"好 那第三個部分是我們應該落實回歸以教師評審委員會為核心的審議架構確保依法審查 依法保障然後外部委員或許可以討論看看是不是在這幾個平台裡面去增設或者是什麼樣子的機制來做一個調整讓教師能夠在制度內獲得公正的處理不要因為被校長或某一些人的會議主導而被困住"},{"start":7160.16,"end":7176.674,"text":"那我們知道很確定的教師荒是台灣實質的問題教師跟代理教師荒這也是目前正在上演的全球教師報告這是聯合國教科文組織所提的報告"},{"start":7178.109,"end":7189.905,"text":"全球教師地位報告跟教學與學習國際調查報告這是OEDC所提的報告都提到教師短缺是全世界包括台灣"},{"start":7191.99,"end":7206.944,"text":"現存的一個很大的問題這是很大的隱憂在我們目前的環境下教師最需要的是信任跟支持而不是被制度給綁住本席請教育部誠實面對這個長期困擾基層的問題跟教師團體來好好檢視一個問題"},{"start":7211.809,"end":7241.329,"text":"那麼你們的態度跟所謂剛才有一位專家談到知所節制但是在行政上應該可以積極認識不要讓程序一直來回那我們要的不是一個鬥爭性的制度而是真正能夠解決問題的一個制度請讓我們把良善回歸校園並且透過制度的積極調整跟改變來解決目前真的全世界包括台灣都有的教師及代理教師荒"},{"start":7242.972,"end":7246.521,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝林倩琪委員那我們現在休息五分鐘五分鐘之後我們再繼續開會"},{"start":7576.741,"end":7580.487,"text":"好 謝謝我們繼續開會喔那接下來我們有請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":7586.503,"end":7606.471,"text":"謝謝主席那我想也非常感謝主席今天召開了這樣子的一個公聽會讓我們可以來聽見不同的聲音因為我想今天我剛剛坐在這邊聽了一些不管是學生或是家長的或者是教師團體大家其實都有一個共同的想法其實是有共識的就是認為這個校式會議有調整的必要"},{"start":7607.771,"end":7632.387,"text":"但我想我也要勉勵我們的教育部就是說這的確難度真的非常高因為學生家長跟老師呢都有一些些歧異的地方這還要如何的去思考如何的去再做精進那我這個真的是一個不容易的工作啦但我希望教育部還是要積極的來去傾聽然後積極的來去思考怎麼樣找出一個比較合適的一個解決之道"},{"start":7633.027,"end":7648.884,"text":"好 那我想我這邊還是要再重申一下因為我自己過去是教養會長所以我也是教室會議的學校代表那我自己在現場所看見的就是說有很多的例子是要來支撐我下面要講我們必須要修正的地方"},{"start":7649.878,"end":7678.405,"text":"第一個我有收到許多老師被重複的申訴重複的申訴可能就是我們已經調查過霸凌案或是各種案件都不成立之後因為政治力的介入可能是有人打到1999或是有明帶關心之後各縣市的教育局就再把這個案子丟回去了這個流程裡面讓一個老師反覆的被折磨這是事實上我自己都有看過的例子"},{"start":7679.864,"end":7706.81,"text":"那再來也有第二個就是說有些的申訴有些的檢舉其實完全沒有任何的事實可能是基於個人的恩怨等等這也是在調查之後最後老師成功的洗刷冤情可是名譽受損這也是事實那第三個我也有看過就是有些的孩子真的是被嚴重的欺負侵害"},{"start":7707.95,"end":7729.079,"text":"但是校士會議做出的一些陳詞最後到教評會又被輕輕綁下所以我要講的是說我們現在在這個制度上面的確我知道大家的意見都有在我自己都誠心親身的看過所以我接下來想要再針對我剛剛講的這個例子提出一些我自己的建議"},{"start":7730.765,"end":7746.418,"text":"就是說以我們現在實務上面教師或者一些行政同仁因為許多的檢舉沒有成案或者是沒有一些重大疏失可是因為現在的流程裡面全部都丟進去了那變成是說這個老師就是"},{"start":7746.778,"end":7773.473,"text":"不管怎麼樣他都必須面對這個調查機制就會有一個程序壓力還有名譽受損以及他教學就越來越被動的一個問題那我常常都會跟我認識的家長會長也好或是我認識的家長也好我都會告訴他們老師好學生才會好所以家長應該要怎麼樣的來去跟教師做一個比較良善的互動有些問題真的不要動到教師回憶去討論"},{"start":7774.494,"end":7792.764,"text":"有些事情其實我們就是用寫聯絡簿嘛是不是跟老師約個時間來溝通都可以不要什麼事情都丟進去那再加上有很多的報導都是這個教師被匿名檢舉重複投訴所以就變成我們其實行政工作已經非常多了"},{"start":7793.854,"end":7806.631,"text":"可是我們現在還要再做這件事情的時候就會讓教職員投入過多的時間跟精力在應對這個程序就沒有辦法好好的去教學那其實最後受害的還是孩子"},{"start":7808.618,"end":7832.853,"text":"再來呢 所以我想要認為我認為我們現在應該要有一個明確的機制就是說重複的 惡意的這些檢舉只要他今天完成了就是這個重複的檢舉已經確定前面已經不成案了或是調查已經完成了就不要再重啟調查了如果這個形式上面都已經完成了就不要再重複的調查"},{"start":7834.506,"end":7862.194,"text":"那再來就是說如果我們明知道他的檢舉是缺乏依據可是他還提出來的我們應該要有一個機制應該有個機制因為現在等於是反正我怎麼樣檢舉都沒有成本那我覺得這個也是不合理的地方那我認為這樣子的我們應該本來就要基於檢舉應有合理基礎的預期才能夠去有效的去減少無理重複惡意的一個檢舉"},{"start":7864.119,"end":7881.176,"text":"那第三個部分我也要說被檢舉方老師們在調查程序中應該享有完整的權益保障他有權在有權陳述他的意見查看相關證據然後只要在最後的認定是"},{"start":7882.317,"end":7904.072,"text":"沒有事實或者是說不成案的我們應該有個補償機制那這個其實我跟部長也說過了幾次就是說行政應對的費用不管是律師啦交通費訴訟的一些應對支持還有我們不應該只有還給本縫我們應該其他的因為他這段時間停止教學其實他是被迫與無奈所以這個地方也應該要來"},{"start":7906.133,"end":7931.765,"text":"應該要來回補啦補償他的這個損失然後我們是不是有一個名譽恢復的程序不然就是一個老師在很多這個調查過程之中不僅是面對這個家長面對這些指控這些俄語會口耳相傳那這些名譽的恢復其實是需要來建立的那最後一個是心理諮商的支援"},{"start":7934.056,"end":7950.268,"text":"其實我想今天這些主張並不是只是應該說今天這些主張其實都是要來去思考說我們如何去創造一個大家都能夠適應適用的一個體制從公平程序正義還有保護教職員的合法權益"},{"start":7951.509,"end":7965.963,"text":"並且有效的去防範制度被濫用的角度來出發所以一個合理的檢舉制度一個有利的保障機制一個適當的補償機制三者相輔相成"},{"start":7966.423,"end":7990.13,"text":"我們才能夠真正打造一個真正有公平有信任有專業的學校治理環境那最後一個小小的補充是我們在學校校事會的人才資料庫這件事情長期以來都有被詬病所以這個部分是不是要怎麼樣的來去增進加強我們一些不管是兒少表一學兒少權利相關的一些訓練"},{"start":7991.79,"end":8004.2,"text":"我想這個是需要與時俱進而且並且實時更新的才能夠去確保我們找來的一些調查的一些來參與的代表的確有他的專業性跟合理性 謝謝"},{"start":8006.889,"end":8035.049,"text":"好 我们谢谢张亚林委员那我想我在这边特别谢谢一下我们那个刘淑彬召委那因为本席在这一次的会席当中有把教师荒还有校师会议带到大院然后在总咨询当中来咨询了我们的行政院院长还有部长所以呢这次要开这个我们的公听会非常谢谢我们的刘淑彬委员把这个公听会的时间让我来做安排那现在我们就有请我们刘淑彬召委发言"},{"start":8043.717,"end":8059.386,"text":"好 謝謝主席那各位官員還有在場的委員大家早安今天對於這個校式會議改革制度上面我要說教育部部長在這裡我要說教育部終於在這個改革方向做對了一步"},{"start":8060.55,"end":8079.016,"text":"為什麼因為從去年的資料到現在來看的話一百一千多件當中呢只有六件老師就是被淘汰那這樣的一個比例大概只有到二點多就是你做了一件事情卻是它的影響就非常小因為本來就可以達到這個效果"},{"start":8079.756,"end":8105.108,"text":"那尤其是教育學校學校做一個教育機構最重要的就是一個溝通 了解 互動 輔導這樣子的一個場域在過去的校士會議的調查的機制這樣進來之後造成了變成說學校就變成一個調查的場域的那影響到學生最重要是影響到老師他在從開始接受理到後來的"},{"start":8106.569,"end":8128.682,"text":"結束不管他有沒有被只要這個結果還沒有結束之前他都惶惶恐恐甚至就引發更多的人就不想進入到這裡面來那這個部分呢教育部當中有一個非常重要的一個機制就在於是說改革方向我覺得很重要的是在於把這個機制上面做了很大的改變就是說對於"},{"start":8129.582,"end":8152.252,"text":"不具名的無具理事證的就把他排除這非常重要因為不需要花這麼多的成本去做這些事情第二個 明定受理程序新增輕師溝通預防機制這個是在第二條的內容上面覺得也是好的一個情形因為本身你就必須要我先跟大家講因為大學裡面我是在高等教育出身"},{"start":8153.012,"end":8180.111,"text":"就是可以看到一般的老師他是優良的一般老師就是算是正常的普通的他本身就是應該夠格的那我們現在都還有師奪獎是那個優良教師他本身就應該不是說給他加獎 技獎這個部分等等的技工等等的那有一些部分的像這次的一個不適任的部分等等的就本來就有一些考核的跟教評會的這個機制是沒有錯但是大部分的老師中規中矩的都沒有問題"},{"start":8181.572,"end":8201.662,"text":"這個可是因為校事會議的一個場所謂不適任就基本上把大家當作可能只要有被檢舉就把他放進來因此在這個過程當中呢最重要的要先把這種不適任的就是說有可能的不是因為他一時的一個情緒或者是他本身是經驗不足而導致的這種情形要把他排除掉"},{"start":8202.623,"end":8218.523,"text":"那這部分的話消失會議當中因此要先針對有這個親師溝通的預防機制是很重要的這個部分就讓他先如果他本身就屬於排除掉那些特性的因素他根本不是屬於不適任的"},{"start":8219.224,"end":8243.691,"text":"這個第二條片做了這個了解之後呢甚至是做更客等等的他就進入到輔導機制去進行那就有可能就回復到他原來的部分他就避免了這樣子的一個被甚至我覺得是被臨時調查的這種情形那第二個我們後來也看到是說他呢這邊也包括說有一個在如果這邊接受到調查的情況呢他有這個輔佐人的機制這個也是好的事情很多人就說"},{"start":8244.611,"end":8259.071,"text":"比現在的是他自己可以選任在家長老師們在給他支持在他熟悉的環境當中去面對這樣一個調查通通都是好事情那至於說包括後面的如果有這個檢舉的結果不受理的話他也必須要跟"},{"start":8260.433,"end":8280.838,"text":"跟這個檢舉人或是陳情人去公告就是讓他通知這都是讓他知道我們已經處理完這樣的事情尤其是現在的這個調查受理的過程當中已經把原來的這個消失會議當中的這些也有外聘的委員等等的都放進來本身就可以派遍到過去所謂被吃爛的部分那我現在最重要的是要講這邊的因為"},{"start":8284.586,"end":8309.461,"text":"國中高小學裡面沒有高校裡面的評鑑機制但是大學裡面講的評鑑機制當中他們都還有教學資源中心這種輔導機制可是因為國中高小學不適合做評鑑這個部分我特別要強調這種輔導機制的落實是很重要的那這輔導機制這個當中就是必須要給在"},{"start":8310.462,"end":8324.749,"text":"尤其是我覺得我剛才提出來就是說教育部有這個方向的草案出來了好事但是我覺得因為它本身還是在它的名字叫做什麼這個法的名字叫做高級中等以下學校教師解聘"},{"start":8325.549,"end":8344.767,"text":"不續聘 停聘或支遣辦法它本身如果落入到這個機制當中就是要往向那個目標去做這是非常不適合的因此加上因為這次的修改的內容當中有加上輔導機制預防溝通的預防機制還有輔助人機制有這個本身在原來的國民教育法或者是"},{"start":8346.468,"end":8372.831,"text":"教師法當中他就算是有一些這樣的機制當中給他寄他說因為申誡給他寄過等等的可是還是沒有輔導機制剛好補足了這一個部分我因此會建議我強烈的建議這個法又是要提到是高級中等就加入輔導兩個字輔導兩個字把它變成說高級中等以下學校教師輔導解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法"},{"start":8373.812,"end":8387.244,"text":"因為這樣子才能夠讓表示我們老師當然也不是人非完人也不是萬事失表這種情況但是他會有需要輔導有這個機制那當然補足了在高校裡面的這樣所謂教學資源中心的輔導的這個內涵在那"},{"start":8389.105,"end":8417.213,"text":"包括這一部分當然還可以再充實如果把它變成這樣做就可以知道教育部的立場是在輔導支持我們的教師而不是依照著這個比較這個現在因為民意高漲啊或是這個教師家長或學生的意識比較高就會變成說一介紹什麼陳菊姐 現在已經改變了但是過去的這種情況絕對要做很大的改變回報原來是屬於教學校就是一個教學溝通輔導"},{"start":8420.242,"end":8439.073,"text":"甚至就是養成再去再重生養成的這樣子的一個本身自己不只對學校學生甚至對老師對我在所謂的在教育的就是老師都還可以在精進的這樣一個方案甚至我覺得啦你生前還跑到精進輔導我覺得都是一個好的想方法因此我在這邊就是要"},{"start":8440.414,"end":8464.074,"text":"強烈的建議教育部在會後往這個方式去思考才能夠提振我們現在在一個低迷的教師世紀當中還騎乘教師荒的這樣的一種情況好 謝謝謝謝劉書斌召委接下來我們有請全國教師會李雅文理事"},{"start":8467.602,"end":8495.203,"text":"主席你好還有預備的來賓以及今天來盤聽的所有關心這一個議題的教育界的夥伴大家早安我是全國教師會的理事也是高雄市教師會的副理事長李雅雯今天我是帶著我們現場教師的心聲我們走訪過幾百間學校不斷地踏查探訪所有的老師跟校長們去了解現場的因為消失會議的一些問題而造成的困擾來發表他們的相關的心聲讓大家了解但是在開始"},{"start":8495.603,"end":8516.898,"text":"之前我要先譴責一下教育部裡面有依教師法的第51條的規定先邀請我們全國教師組織代表來參與訂定結果就在這個本宮聽會的前一個工作日直接同時就發布了高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘獲之前辦法以及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法的修法草案我不曉得是有多少位在"},{"start":8517.418,"end":8542.958,"text":"三個禮拜五已經按照公聽會的規定將所有的資料都已經送到了這邊了還有我們準備了一些簡報的內容都已經準備好了結果因為這個草案在傍晚的時候突然發佈的關係混淆了我們現在公聽會的討論方向我們到底要不要針對這個草案內容進行一些討論呢這個也讓立法院陷於不易我相信有很多人都來不及整理今天應該要更新的內容在109年解聘辦法訂定開始到現在已經五年了"},{"start":8543.298,"end":8552.223,"text":"其實老師們再也受不了動輒得救的教育現場所以我們跟全教會我們堅持還是一樣要廢除教師會議我們在記者會還有我們也看到民間自己發起的這一個提點值的廢除教師會議都提出來了那麼為什麼我們應該廢除教師會議大家可以看到右邊這一張由教育部調查的一些數據是從去年4月7號到現在的今年5月30號的相關數據"},{"start":8567.932,"end":8587.935,"text":"根據右表顯示我們會發現投訴案件當中真正符合校士會議要處理的停解聘案件只有3.3%那麼其中調查最後不成立也就是無辜的老師而且浪費了教育資源讓無辜老師白白受罪的比例則高達49.7%其中剩下的有懲處或沒有懲處的案件的小案大辦的比例則高達47%"},{"start":8589.216,"end":8612.534,"text":"這可以表示說教師會議它的高誤殺率跟高耗損力它們讓我們浪費了非常多的資源耗損了很多教師的熱忱結果只處理了3.3%的不適合教師所以為什麼我們應該廢除教師會議呢第一個它讓我們學校的教育現場非常的拮据浪費掉的這些行政能力調查費用全部都來自學校的校務基金排擠了學校的經費也嚴重增加了行政的風險和負擔"},{"start":8615.216,"end":8637.788,"text":"他可能告完老師 又告成辦的教學組長 生教組長生教組長告完 又去告學務主任 就是每一人大家都被告過一遍甚至因為這樣子 連廁所都沒有前修 那老師痛苦我就無辜接受調查 被想像大半的96.7%的老師他會被貼上 疑似不適合教師標籤不要說什麼保密 你只要沒有來學校 大家就會開始議論紛紛"},{"start":8640.049,"end":8651.042,"text":"而且在這段期間調查期間還會被要求要請自付代課費的試駕或者是五星的試駕調離限職接受長達數個月的調查身心備受折磨和熱情也消滅了而這讓訴者卻無視這些呢投訴者"},{"start":8654.926,"end":8675.622,"text":"完全不用負擔一毛錢也不用負任何法律責任連學生都知道可以用投訴來向老師嗆聲那所以為了處理不到4%的不適合教師誤殺96%一般教師的制度難道不該廢除嗎我們要廢除的是校士會議而不是不處理不適合教師那校士會議其實它已經很明確的偏離了設置目的及原因為什麼呢"},{"start":8675.922,"end":8701.979,"text":"因为校师会议它是为了处理教师法第29条解聘不需聘停聘获之前的不适任教师而设置的程序然而它现在已经沦为处理教师遭投诉案件的机制它不但大量插手原本应该属于教师成绩考核位的惩处案件而且在实务执行时它的调查报告的建议惩处的效力甚至会凌驾考核会之决议我们主管机关一直退回来叫你要遵守调查报告的建议"},{"start":8702.059,"end":8726.522,"text":"我真不曉得為什麼我們一定要遵守調查報告的建議因為考核會的職者才是要決定那個老師的懲處那這個是僅3.3%的比例是在處理設置目的的案件為了處理這個不適合教師而設置的校師會早已偏離設置目的及原意造成教育現場的一個獵巫的風氣浪費了大量的行政資源使學校辦學變辦案嚴重打擊了整體教育人員的士氣"},{"start":8727.082,"end":8749.102,"text":"那麼校食會議高誣殺率跟高耗損率的問題到底是來自哪裡呢其實魔鬼是藏在細節裡的我們來看一下依據前述教育部的調查數據投訴總案件書1372件 1124件受理佔81.9%的案件受理而受理的案件當中只有3.3%是真正校食會議要處理的停解平安這個其實就很明顯的存在爛輸問題"},{"start":8750.583,"end":8772.772,"text":"精準的處理受理這個投訴案件其實它才是解決濫訴的一大關鍵所以我們的教育部長一再強調落實匿名不受理機制就可以有效的解決濫訴那我們在上週五發布的草案也將不具名受理的單數上訴但事實真的是如此簡單嗎我們來看一下匿名不受理或許可以減少一部分因為不敢具名的投訴者的"},{"start":8772.972,"end":8799.863,"text":"投訴行為可是在教育部的這一個函式當中曾經寫到說透過校師會議之處理機制以調查離心教師所設的疑似不適應情勢是否真實或其情節是否已達不適應之程度學校應主動發現資料查詢受理投訴收受通知或經由媒體報導等途徑而知悉有相同情形時學校即應召開校師會議調查確認翻成白話文的意思就是說"},{"start":8800.563,"end":8826.661,"text":"不管有沒有匿名 勤檢是輕重任何方式 甚至我都不需要特定人員檢舉只要學校有各種管道知道了就算是一點小事你只要沾上了一點點的體罰霸凌不當管教或其他違法處罰教學不立不適任的十一個樣態的邊邊的你就要啟動校師會議調查是不是真有這件事還有你的勤檢是不是已經達到了不適任的程度我可以明確的說 至少高雄市教育局他就是這麼認為的"},{"start":8827.822,"end":8841.981,"text":"不管你的情節到底是多重它就是一定要啟動任何人都不需要證據只要寫一篇符合上開樣態的文字投訴為了證明被投訴的老師情節沒有達到不適合程度就要啟動調查然後我就要為了自爭清白而受折磨90% 6%的烏紗及小案大罵比例就是如此來的"},{"start":8845.305,"end":8862.023,"text":"我們來看一下 這個也是去年修法之後說跨組的考核會規定的檢要調查報告的內容其實跟一般的調查小組的報告內容是幾乎是一樣的所以學校還是要找人才庫委員才能寫報告我們用一張圖來說明一下為何光啟動調查就可以折磨行政人員"},{"start":8862.483,"end":8884.178,"text":"我們看下召開校師會議啟動調查之後無期限的情況之下我們就要找到委員召開第一次調查會議接下來最長四個月的時間完成調查報告然後調查報告再送校師會考核會審議不成立的話就結案了那承辦人員在這段期間要有各式各樣的承辦的工作還要準備錄音器材有時候還會被額外要求要阻止稿而且沒有加班費或賺稿費"},{"start":8884.978,"end":8896.856,"text":"還要不斷的跟家長學生老師教育局官員甚至是媒體跟委員一起溝通還要調整老師的職務課表找待課老師那被調查的老師呢在保密原則完全搞不清楚情況的狀況下要準備各種陳述還要調整彈性調整再給我一分鐘"},{"start":8900.802,"end":8920.34,"text":"客戶可能會面臨最嚴重的是停聘停發半數本封就算你後來本薪就算你後來清白了那你還是只能拿回本薪有將近一半薪水的學士研究費直接消失就算你是清白的那被要求要支付代課費或扣薪的請示價或是改接其他班級或改接行政工作不調整的很少"},{"start":8920.64,"end":8948.4,"text":"那任教授班級跟師生他就會發現老師突然不見了一直換老師變成帶課老師來上課老師明明在學校可是不教我們班的換老師清白老師就沒有受傷了嗎這個都是我們可以發現校師會議他其實都有很嚴重的濫用的案例包含了那個嘉義富小的案件跟琉球國中的這一個案件那對投訴進入校師會議調查老師也是這樣子的好那所以我們在校師會議廢除之前其實應該要很精準的去處理這一些相關的案件以上謝謝"},{"start":8950.285,"end":8956.936,"text":"好 谢谢李亚文理事的发言那下一位我们有请全教产的陈元峰副秘书长"},{"start":8967.642,"end":8991.049,"text":"主席各位來賓大家早安我是全國教育產業總工會簡稱全教長的陳元鋒副秘書長好我今天針對這個校師會這議題呢好我做一下簡單的說明好我覺得鄭部長跟彭書長呢受到一點厭屈因為校師會跟專程會並不是教育部推動的是全教總推動的"},{"start":8993.178,"end":9020.552,"text":"是全教總推動的他在一百零四年的時候呢他開了記者會要求推動專審會而在這裡面呢他提了一個教師法第十四條第一項第十二款及第十三款處理辦法的草案就是現在的解聘提名不續聘辦法這裡面要處理的在學校端他組一個小組就類似現在校師會議是體罰霸凌跟行為違反香港法規所以我覺得教育部"},{"start":9022.546,"end":9046.741,"text":"有點受了有點冤屈啊但是我覺得教育部沒有扛起應該有的作為我覺得也是令人詬病的地方所以我們要講清楚來校士會議跟專審會是全教總推動的為什麼呢有些人誤解了校士會議跟專審會只有在高級中等以下才有這個制度大專院校是沒有的"},{"start":9047.845,"end":9076.252,"text":"為什麼呢因為當時全教總推動這個是要取代教師專業發展評鑑還要解決事事相互的問題所以呢在第一級高級中等以下學校的校園裡面處理不適應教師機制就是現在校師會議但是在主管機關有沒有就是全教總推動的專省會議這是連貫性的好再來我們全教廠的主張就是廢除校師會議以下是我們的理由"},{"start":9079.008,"end":9095.378,"text":"因為全教總他推動的專審會跟校師會這個目的解決校師會事事相容的問題有效解決了嗎跟各位報告校師會呢就像流失網一樣好壞老師一網打盡"},{"start":9097.482,"end":9124.63,"text":"一網打盡用這個最簡單的話例子來講就是一網打盡好老師真正爛老師也一樣處理進來好校士會讓校園形成什麼老師對因為在教師法裡面學生輔導與管教是老師的義務那為什麼在國外的這個PAR這個制度呢他沒有處理這一塊因為國外老師不負責輔導與管教"},{"start":9126.252,"end":9152.909,"text":"所以你在國外怎麼會有什麼體罰所以很多制度搬進來要看到國內的國情是什麼國內的校園制度是什麼這樣子呢因為這個校師會讓老師在教育現場動輒得救膽戰心驚他不在於是家長檢舉濫輸喔還有校園內的鬥爭而退休老師呢以前都是恭喜你容退沒有了我們都說恭喜你安全下莊"},{"start":9155.052,"end":9176.33,"text":"你看多悲慘啊我們廢除的第一個理由這一個校師會在學校是太上皇的任務型委員會為什麼因為這個校師會的委員他是由校長指派的他可以掌控再來這些人員有專業能力嗎有專業的辨識能力嗎第二個"},{"start":9182.537,"end":9210.558,"text":"他讓學校原本有處理老師行為問題這個不是任何問題的教評會跟考會形同橡皮圖章為什麼校士會的調查事實認定即使有錯有問題到教評會跟考會教育部的說明是你不可以推翻你不能推翻只有校士會跟主管機關可以推翻就重查"},{"start":9211.718,"end":9238.677,"text":"那請問教評會跟考核會要做什麼他只能懲處啊這是莫名其妙的制度嘛那你乾脆就把教評會跟考核會廢掉就好了不是嗎廢除第三體理由是最誇張的這才是問題的真點三天就可以成為只培訓三天就可以當調查員跟輔導員請問一下各位一個醫師培訓三天就可以當醫師你敢給他動手術嗎"},{"start":9241.065,"end":9262.846,"text":"這樣的調查員只培訓三天就有專業嚴謹的查訪跟輔導能力嗎是誰在見他這個教師專業我覺得教育部難死其咎怎麼三天就可以當調查員還有全教總因為早期是全教總協助培訓的現在還有全教總的法務部的主任也在當講師"},{"start":9265.575,"end":9291.093,"text":"我覺得這是最糟糕的地方這個制度是要提升教師專業卻不是因為任何人都可以講專業這個不是很奇怪嗎再來公益檢舉跟居民檢舉就不會爛輸嗎是這樣嗎我用別人名詞去檢舉可不可以我在外面就是找記者亂講一通學校要不要處理主管要不要處理但是他是真實的嗎"},{"start":9293.186,"end":9322.205,"text":"就說這前陣子這個親身的老師你們看到的是表象但是我們知道事情是不是這樣所以就是以而傳而好再來廢除第一個理由第五個理由我們一旦送到考核會我們拿不到調查報告請問我要去為我為我辯解什麼我要為我辯解什麼這莫名其妙的制度嘛所以全教堂在這裡呼籲"},{"start":9324.011,"end":9349.736,"text":"回歸健全的教師法賦予教評會處理的機制我為什麼這樣子說因為在教師法第9條已經對處理體罰霸凌性平行為違反相關法規的這樣的老師進入教評會的時候裡面的未經行政老師不能過半不能過半就是減輕私事相応的問題嘛第二個"},{"start":9351.277,"end":9375.413,"text":"既然有教職成績考核辦法請問平時的觀考有沒有落實有沒有落實送到考核位每個人都可以加等那加等的依據是什麼還是任何人都可以加等所以我現在在這邊講是誰推動的制度現在變成自由事主你們自己要應該是你們要跟全國老師道歉以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":9378.39,"end":9403.798,"text":"好謝謝陳元豐副民主黨接下來我們有請屏東縣教育產業工會郭偉珍理事長好主席各位與會來賓大家好我是屏東縣教育產業工會理事長郭偉珍今天針對這個公聽會就是發表一下我們的立場"},{"start":9406.513,"end":9421.889,"text":"好那這個部分我們全教總一致都是支持廢除校士會議制度對剛剛其實講到的也是有部分的聲音那"},{"start":9423.948,"end":9451.588,"text":"應該是這麼說我們國家任何的制度在一開始創立或者是設計出來的時候利益一定都是良善的不然我們不會去成立這些東西但是這個制度如果在實行了這麼久之後然後被玩爛了大白話講就是這樣那我們當然支持就是要廢除校事會議所以這也是我們全教總一致上下全部一致的立場"},{"start":9453.319,"end":9480.594,"text":"好 那當然就是一開始的時候還是要稍微表達一下我們的遺憾就是針對教育部在星期五那天就是已經先發表一個草案那當然剛剛我們主席有說那這個只是草案的部分對 但是因為我們還是要針對就是這個草案的內容去稍微做一下了解跟它到底這個草案實施到我們現場的時候會不會造成另外的什麼影響"},{"start":9481.494,"end":9503.251,"text":"所以其實這部分我們會覺得說這有點逾越到我們今天的立法院的公聽會好然後再來就是校事會議的問題是什麼我相信剛剛很多就是代表都有上來發言其實校事會議的問題大概前面都有講到第一個是高受理其實現在在教育現場裡面頻繁的都在"},{"start":9504.292,"end":9528.126,"text":"接這一些案子那這個案子也不是說一天兩天他就會結束的所以其實老師們身心俱疲這一點我相信不管你們在任何的新聞文宣或者任何報導裡面其實都有看到對然後再來是高啟動基本上只要有人投訴那就進到這裡面那陳儒剛剛有一些代表他們有講到的可能是因為迫於一些壓力"},{"start":9530.068,"end":9556.584,"text":"可能是主管機關的或者是一些家長的壓力所以導致這個幾乎就是一投訴就啟動然後再來就是高成本剛剛也有一些代表分析過我們啟動一件這樣子的案件需要花費多少的人力跟多少的一些教育經費其實我們都覺得這非常可惜可是大家可以稍微看一下它的達成率其實達成有效率最終"},{"start":9557.344,"end":9576.841,"text":"不到4%其實是3.3%這樣子而已只有這樣子的案件會達成停聘或者解聘所以其實96.7%的案件根本就沒有到達這樣的程度好那我要稍微講一下其實目前現場老師真的是人人自為風聲鶴唳"},{"start":9579.584,"end":9606.942,"text":"剛剛有提到包括校士會議他的可能委員訓練或者是說擔任委員像我之前就曾經被誤認為我是校士會議的委員結果就受到重砲轟擊可是我想要詢問大家的是今天如果有站在教師立場的人擔任調查委員對老師不是一件好事嗎那當然因為我沒有所以這個部分"},{"start":9608.022,"end":9629.43,"text":"我們可以去反思的一點是為什麼現在只要提到校事會議甚至你有可能跟校事會議的委員沾到一點邊老師們就會把你當成劍靶為什麼會這麼可怕因為現在我們的教育現場真的是對這個校事會議感到非常的恐慌"},{"start":9630.31,"end":9654.939,"text":"不知道各位有沒有曾經在兩三應該是這樣問在兩三點的時候請問各位都在忙些什麼可能當然因為今天要開公聽會所以昨天兩三點也許還在準備資料但是我們工會的常態就是兩三點的時候我們還會接到電話甚至要陪著那位老師聽著他顫抖的聲音然後陪著他哭然後告訴他幫他分析他的案情他可以怎麼去應對這樣子的校事會議"},{"start":9656.099,"end":9680.28,"text":"怎麼樣去提出一些有力的證據去證明一些自己沒有做的事情那不管他們是到現場或者是我們這樣徹夜的陪伴他對於這些老師來講是實質上面的幫助嗎其實也沒有他還是即將一個人去面對這一些好然後再來就是除了這一些進入校試會議的老師之外還有的就是造成的行政量"},{"start":9681.181,"end":9695.217,"text":"太大了所以我們也可以看到現場其實有一些悲劇他們那些老師並不是任何就是可能受到懲處或者是可能遭遇到校事會議的老師但是就因為他們巨量的行政"},{"start":9697.238,"end":9722.007,"text":"業務所以導致他們身心靈都受到很嚴重的創傷我們有認識很多老師他們其實長期都有在服用身心科的藥就是因為他們其實受不了這種壓力但是你說這些老師對教育是沒有熱忱的嗎他們有只是他們被迫要去做這樣子的事情好 所以因為時間也不多所以我原本有針對教育部提出的草案這五點稍微主向"},{"start":9722.927,"end":9738.093,"text":"去就是表達意見但是這邊其實我想要回歸到因為我們今天公聽會主要是在講教師荒然後在講一些校事會議的問題我希望不管日後有任何的可能修正甚至廢除那是我們最樂見的"},{"start":9739.554,"end":9764.654,"text":"都還是要回扣到目前我們教育現在最需要的是什麼我覺得我們現在教育最需要的是一個友善的空間而不是大家唇槍舌戰每次針對足智足據然後去不斷的在那邊針對這些足智足據在那邊修改或者是爭吵其實我們應該要團結起來這才是最重要的"},{"start":9765.714,"end":9789.989,"text":"所以其實我們目前可以看得到的像小案大辦在我們的草案裡面包括那些爛訴的問題其實我們都覺得沒有辦法得到改善所以最後我呼籲其實應該要廢除校事會議其實要停止內耗就是要讓老師回歸教室這個才是我們學生的幸福才是我們教育現場最急迫需要的以上 謝謝"},{"start":9793.052,"end":9803.094,"text":"好 谢谢郭理事长我真的觉得你后面那个友善空间讲得非常的好好 我们接下来我们有请国教行动联盟张文昌常务理事"},{"start":9805.134,"end":9832.795,"text":"主席在座部長署長在座各位教育先進大家早安大家好我是國教行動聯盟常務理事張文昌大家看到這個畫面就是一群老師在教育部前面抗議所以這個議題已經引起了我們校園老師的一個心理上的壓力跟威脅感我們就來看一下我們從國教行動聯盟的一個立場"},{"start":9833.596,"end":9861.292,"text":"好 那我們怎麼樣來看這個問題好 這是我嘛我身分很特殊跟在座很多人都有重疊我是國家教師團團理師我是松山家商的退休老師我是20年教師組織的經驗以前當過台北市教師會理事長跟全國教師會 全國教師公會許多的很多幹部然後我有6年家長團體的經驗我是學校民族實驗國中的現任的家長會長"},{"start":9863.075,"end":9872.391,"text":"這個身份是應該蠻特別剛好都是跟在座很多都有交集我們來看一下幾個問題第一個爭議何在第二個怎麼解決第三個我們的訴求是什麼"},{"start":9874.652,"end":9900.674,"text":"我們古代一句話叫做思言而後道尊它的意思就是老師受到尊重我們的學生我們的教育才可學生才會認真學習你所教的東西才會被重視簡單講就是這樣所以我們可以看到現在教這位那現在大家都在講一個問題叫做爛數其實爛數所謂的爛數它真正的問題是不成案的比例過高依照我們這個"},{"start":9902.976,"end":9928.739,"text":"國教行動有沒有參與台北大學的一個焦點座談的資料來看根據台北大學一個調查在修法前的不成案的比例是46.931277案不成案修法後是50%1125案5件不成案所以你可以看到然後在他的統計中每年大概是700到900件的案件那你看到不成案的比例大概是一半左右"},{"start":9929.54,"end":9947.963,"text":"可以看到這樣的問題另外一個部分來看依據教育部的統計在一年13個多月的時間來講總共是受理1,124件受理率是82以我們一般的了解來看這樣的受理率是很明顯太高"},{"start":9949.389,"end":9964.907,"text":"受理案件中有769件已經完成調查有一半是不成立所以就呼應前面的大概是一半一半是不成立的就是最後是不成立的沒有成立的這個比例也是相當的高"},{"start":9965.808,"end":9988.451,"text":"那在現場的就有共361件成立所以就是呼應前面幾位都有講到這個只有26案達到挺並解兵的程度占完成調查案件的3.3%大家應該知道在學校裡面當老師是很在乎觀感的大家覺得這個老師是一個好老師他是一個怎麼樣的老師"},{"start":9989.292,"end":10017.431,"text":"因為在學校裡面是一個非常平凡跟人際的關係我跟學生有很多互動我跟家長很多互動我跟學校其他老師我是很在乎別人怎麼看我的就要給人家打聽的這個是很重要的所以這樣的一個現象會造成一旦我只要進入被投訴了被檢舉了我進入校資會議的程序中啟動之後"},{"start":10018.712,"end":10034.791,"text":"我可能名聲就傳出去了你就是不是的老師疑似那兩個字常常是省略的就是你這個老師就是不是老師大家開始在裡面傳那我怎麼在學校教下去呢我的心理壓力有多大不管最後有可能不成立嘛"},{"start":10035.131,"end":10057.181,"text":"可能一半的機會不成立可是我在這個過程中幾個月的過程中真的是煎熬對絕大多數的老師來講這樣的過程真的是煎熬那不成案理由哪些呢證據不足未達法律構成要件管教問題輕微問題溝通問題然後我們肯定校師會議確實有助於淘汰不私任教師我們認為這樣的機制要保留"},{"start":10057.401,"end":10073.274,"text":"不然的話你就是要弄另外一個比現在更好的機子看起來還沒有所以這個部分我們保留可是他確實他的受理的那個門檻太低然後不成案的比例過高這個是非常明顯的那實際案量相對於20萬老師來講一年來講"},{"start":10075.796,"end":10101.095,"text":"如果一年或一年多1124件其實不到千分之六所以比例上事實上是相低相對是低的所以它並不是一個普遍的老師都會被投訴而是一旦我被投訴我可能不知道誰檢舉我那我就被投訴了那啟動以後我那個過程非常煎熬而且我這個煎熬的過程可能學校周圍很多老師都會知道會造成一個心理上的一種恐慌跟壓力這個是很現實的問題"},{"start":10102.256,"end":10129.545,"text":"那時候你們肯定所以老師很不喜歡被調查這個是現實那我們來看一下濫訴我們認為所謂的濫訴他如果解釋是有很多老師被投訴他是不成立的不成立的可是實際上的問題是什麼是小案大辦校師會議是用來處理不適任教師的一個程序一個法律程序為什麼這麼容易被啟動這個就是真正的問題我們俗話叫做殺雞焉用牛刀對不對"},{"start":10130.245,"end":10146.485,"text":"校智慧就是像牛刀那我們現在的輕易啟動都會造成了這樣的一個問題那怎麼解決呢我舉一個很快舉一個例子最近在學校中有一個班級反應家長反應英文老師上課孩子聽不懂那後來"},{"start":10148.764,"end":10169.13,"text":"我覺得關鍵在哪?關鍵是導師為什麼呢?班上的任科老師跟誰有接觸有比較熟悉是導師跟家長誰比較互動比較多是導師跟孩子跟班上的學生誰互動最多導師所以這個班級的導師非常有經驗所以他扮演一個重要的角色"},{"start":10170.21,"end":10196.741,"text":"他去坐在班上英文課做了兩節課三節課坐在後面聽然後他私底下抽了幾個同學來問上課的狀況他就了解問題了原來這個老師新來的因為班上有幾個同學英文對答如流他誤以為這個班的程度很好再加上開學禮拜一放了三次九月放兩次十月初又放一次他的課被放掉禮拜一有兩節英文課都被放掉他課"},{"start":10197.441,"end":10217.031,"text":"比別老師少很多他開始趕進度所以造成後半段的孩子都聽不懂所以問題就清楚了清楚以後跟老師充分溝通以後老師就調整上課方式問題就解決了不然如果沒有這樣的導師很可能這個老師就被認為是不適任老師所以大家這樣一個例子"},{"start":10218.492,"end":10237.407,"text":"孩子上課聽不懂是需要溝通的不是說孩子上課聽不懂這個老師就是不是那個老師不能這樣子推好 最後我要講的是第一個是強化導師溝通的角色然後把關受理跟那個好 那我們的訴求就是不要讓校長裡外不是人"},{"start":10238.227,"end":10252.426,"text":"現在校長你要他召集他找一個人才庫找一個教室代表找一個家長代表來結果校長自己不能投票那請問最後的決議受不受理校長要不要負責校長還是要概括承受"},{"start":10253.554,"end":10273.791,"text":"所以他受理得罪老師怎麼樣不受理得罪家長校長要召集不能投票這是限校長於不義所以結果不滿意還是罵校長校長很可憐教育主管機關要把責任扛起來所以我們強烈建議要由縣市教育主管機關來把關負責受理跟分流才能根本解決問題謝謝"},{"start":10276.837,"end":10283.365,"text":"好 谢谢张文昌常务理事接下来我们有请桃园市家长会长协会吕朝福荣誉理事长"},{"start":10309.09,"end":10333.502,"text":"好 個人首先我們肯定我們萬美人委員舉辦這個很有意義的公聽會那在此我們也是肯定所有的老師在教學地線對我們學子的貢獻那個人我是覺得我們合理的校試會制度尤其客觀的功能性的存在"},{"start":10334.122,"end":10352.381,"text":"因為我在擔任我個人也是桃園市我們的專程委員在期間我個人的感受我覺得說我發現少數一些問題很嚴重的老師不斷的在影響到孩子受教權"},{"start":10353.919,"end":10371.156,"text":"很嚴重但是一直沒被處理所以直到校士會制度出來以後才有被處理那我們感覺到這個制度是非常好就像我們在企業界少數的不適合員工把他調職或者把他敗入掉這個就不錯"},{"start":10373.178,"end":10387.992,"text":"那個員工跟產業更加有欣欣向榮更加團結我覺得是非常好所以我個人是我們教長會長協會在桃園我們會員五六百位都是歷任的學校的會長"},{"start":10389.013,"end":10410.878,"text":"所以我們大部分都是贊成那個人我覺得說以我們桃園來講桃園市這個校審會制度我覺得應該是模範你看我們組成我參加的時候組成教育局有兩個專業律師有一個心理學家有一個專家學者有一個校長有一個家長團體包括在那兩個老師有七個"},{"start":10412.158,"end":10433.643,"text":"我們每次都是會詳閱調查人的資料很客觀公正多元我看這個可能要看兩個小時仔細看可能要四個小時非常非常多調查有老師還有當事者還有我們的孩子還有家長我覺得說非常客觀公正每次我們投票"},{"start":10434.423,"end":10458.281,"text":"老是有七位你看我們都很有共識包括剛剛陳軍理事還是委員你看我們每次投票很少有8比7的都是15比1 15比2所以進入那個輔導期這個大部分都很有共識所以我覺得說這個制度有其公正性所以我們也不會造成很激烈的攻防那我們在這個期間我們會寄來給我們這個資料我們都先閱讀"},{"start":10463.324,"end":10481.175,"text":"在專人期間也會聽取調查者的報告我們再提問我們再匯報我們再充分的討論再來進入表決表決我們大部分都進入輔導期只要三年部寵物犯一樣的錯的話應該都OK我在擔任兩年的時候"},{"start":10484.577,"end":10511.49,"text":"有大概有十幾位進入輔導級其中有兩個他不願意進入輔導級他自願退休我覺得這樣也很好我覺得說這個充分的討論以後我們來充分的討論以後給大家有共識我覺得說這個是保障我們多數的老師跟我們的孩子的什麼他們的受教權跟孩子跟家長的權益所以我覺得說這個有它的必要性"},{"start":10512.15,"end":10531.871,"text":"那我個人我們想說在這期間我們就是我走過擔任很多的家長會長走過期間我發覺說我們親師生行政都很和諧很少說有很激烈的以我桃園市來講所以我覺得說我們桃園算在這個制度我們是非常支持這個提案還感謝我們委員"},{"start":10533.753,"end":10557.874,"text":"在我們桃園擔任議員跟立委期間都是我們孩子的守護神對老師很尊重對我們家長也非常的尊重對我們的教育非常支持所以我們桃園市應該是模範在此因為時間不多我就講我們非常支持這個制度但是我個人是希望說這個也是要不要太有那個就是我們個人是建議說不能匿名"},{"start":10558.454,"end":10576.439,"text":"因為匿名會有濫訴的嫌疑所以我們個人是贊成說要急步的修正就是要具名檢舉但是具名檢舉剛剛我也聽到那個委員說具名檢舉是不是要再做一個制度條款因為具名可能很多人會怕你知道不敢"},{"start":10577.119,"end":10594.429,"text":"像我假設沒有匿名的話我怕說會被出貨算帳也有可能或者孩子被點名所以是不是說我們再弄一個請教育部這邊也要弄一個什麼的條款記名的時候有記名的它的那個保障條款防止那個什麼人名被洩漏匿名是"},{"start":10598.231,"end":10613.942,"text":"有它的優點也有缺點就是說怕爛樹爛樹就是有一些小事件我也發覺有少出一兩個那個什麼爛樹的嫌疑就是說那個根本就是雞麻蒜皮小事或者寵物一直檢舉這個對學校也是動盪不安"},{"start":10614.542,"end":10637.274,"text":"那我再來就是也要講假設真的是有成案的時候也要什麼減輕行政負擔減輕行政負擔不要寫太多的報告報告會造成老師他也沒有辦法很專心專業在教導我們孩子讓我們行政院更加的不要負擔過重好不好以上是我們簡單的建議好不好謝謝 謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝呂超福理事長接下來我們有請林月琴委員"},{"start":10652.755,"end":10667.871,"text":"大家好我想今天公聽會剛剛前面已經很多教師團體也在提這件事情的確教育的現場老師真的是辛苦了可是也要問的是說當初會設這個校師會議一定是要解決什麼事"},{"start":10668.371,"end":10689.981,"text":"一些事情所以今天讨论主题是高级中等以下的学校校师会议到底要不要留要怎么改我想校师会议应该是目前没有其他更好的制度的时候当然就是不能废可是一定要修而且要修得更独立更专业更有效率为什么不能废因为它事实上是"},{"start":10691.641,"end":10705.951,"text":"老師跟學生的權益都要做一個平衡被保障而且這個是它保障學生權益的最後一道防線如果今天校事會議被廢掉的話那未來學校裡邊發生的不當管教或違法"},{"start":10706.291,"end":10733.782,"text":"的一個行為或是失對生的霸凌可能就沒有行政調查流程可以來處理我想家長團體的立場也很明確那我一直在做的事實上是兒少工作當然也期待說在沒有更完整更獨立的制度前不要把這道關卡是拿掉的那當然我絕對是支持我們校事會議先聚焦處理教師法的14 15 16 18條這些重大案件因為這跟學生的權益都有關聯性"},{"start":10735.883,"end":10753.416,"text":"外界當然就是想說那個爛數可是科學依據數據是會說話的討論制度不能只談只講恐慌的感覺要看事實第一個是案件量事實上是沒有暴增我們國家人權委員會委託研究顯示在消失會議"},{"start":10754.497,"end":10782.16,"text":"制度修法前的106到108年學年度那每年啟動調查案件平均量事實上是每年事實上是900件那修法後109年到111年學年度一年平均大約750件這表示修法前後每年真正啟動調查的案件量大部分事實上是還滿平均反而是修法後反而還稍微低一點那所以家長團體大家也共同指出說"},{"start":10782.961,"end":10801.45,"text":"並沒有因納入屍對身 霸凌而出現了幾倍的暴增 更談不上全面的濫訴那另外一個就是嚴重懲處比例事實上是極低真正的被停聘解聘的案件並不是這麼樣的多 因為從最新數據來看的話那從2024年的4月17到2025年的5月30號消失會議總投訴案件數字上1372人"},{"start":10812.676,"end":10824.77,"text":"那其中受理了1124件可是在所有投訴當中最終僅26件達到停聘解聘程度這僅佔總體的投訴案件量的1.9%而已"},{"start":10827.213,"end":10842.664,"text":"所以真的說不上是人人自為是的一個我們的爛樹風暴那如果對比幼教的數據的話我覺得校師會議大概也並沒有爆量為什麼這樣提呢在2024年的全年我們的"},{"start":10843.544,"end":10859.486,"text":"幼教的接獲量大概事實上是780件相較於高中以下學校一年的1372件的投訴總量的話這兩者的量並不會有差別太多甚至幼教的反而事實上還比較高一點所以整體來看"},{"start":10860.907,"end":10888.926,"text":"烂数不是制度的问题而是前端分流不够精准那到底要怎么去做所以要往对的方向去改才能够减少小案大办所以我支持教育部的修法方向也就是匿名检举原则不受理因为匿名检举真的会造成案件量偏高然后所以我支持删除然后匿名检举原则上就是不受理而且不过要特别强调的是"},{"start":10890.747,"end":10912.734,"text":"要保護這一個檢舉的人的身份他的個資一定要做到一個好的保護所以為了解決根本解決小案大辦跟一送級調查的慣性我建議強化前端的受理分流跟審查的一個門檻因為前端受理應該比照右照法的違法"},{"start":10914.615,"end":10942.471,"text":"有交易局委託一個審議小組來決定是否受理通報這樣子就可以做到分流所以關鍵是受理分流的責任不應該落在學校身上那就增加學校非常多的行政成本這樣的案件是否受理的爭議就會要在前端就解決不會全部都送到校事會議來最後當然就是要公正就要更獨立所以"},{"start":10943.308,"end":10971.405,"text":"第三方的機制一定要強化未來的制度必須要更透明專業避免多數的委員多數的認定委員都是教師身份變成都是自己人在審自己人所以調查跟審議我認為都應該由外部的第三方來做主導跟幼教的違法事件調查處理流程一樣要訂出認定委員會的專業背景跟比例第二個就是跟幼教不當對待一樣一起建立全國的共同的專業人才庫特別是兒童權益"},{"start":10972.546,"end":11002.246,"text":"特教性平这些领域要有更明确的最后判准才能够兼顾专业特性跟保障学生的权益最后我想说的是教育部要去做到不要不是让制度变多而是要让制度变好校师会议根本就是要处理重大案件不是什么都抓什么都审那这样子的话当然会让老师进入寒暂甚至老师根本就不想进入到教育现场以上谢谢"},{"start":11004.35,"end":11010.404,"text":"好 谢谢林月琴委员接下来我们有请全国家长会长联盟黄振明荣誉理事长"},{"start":11019.895,"end":11042.481,"text":"那謝主席還有我們各位委員以及各位就是教育先進還有我們教育部的官員大家好我是前兩年榮譽理事長黃正明針對於就是校事會議的存費我今天不只要談家長的焦慮我帶來的是書記我們主張為了校園的安全校事會議絕對不能廢"},{"start":11045.243,"end":11051.594,"text":"為了教育的現場其實我們認為程序必須立即分流跟優化"},{"start":11054.397,"end":11075.283,"text":"我們整個來講 我們核心的價值為什麼說我們堅持就是消失會議不能廢除因為這目前來講就是大家的先進也提到它目前是一個外部一個監制唯一就是一個這個委員會可能是一個外部一個調查機構可能是外部一個監督的一個機構"},{"start":11076.994,"end":11104.561,"text":"那救治的時候其實也有就是處理不適任教師可是他大部分都是校內的調查那可能會讓人家過上就是求嚴兼裁判 私私相惠那新治這一次的優點我覺得我們肯定教育部他是引入了外部的委員然後打破沉默的螺旋那所以說我們堅持學生的安全是最後的防線這是受害學生可能他"},{"start":11105.501,"end":11119.935,"text":"我們在受到霸凌跟體罰 尋求正義的唯一的管道那我們的立場就是消失會議消失廢除消失會議就等於就是讓校園重圍就是黑箱的時代所以我們絕對"},{"start":11122.867,"end":11146.828,"text":"接不接受就是用學生孩子的安全來換為交換行政的方便那在這裡就是說為什麼我們家長會那麼害怕就是說校是會處呢因為在過去的時候這個制度它遇到不適任教師學校往往就是礙於人情的壓力其實在這裡我也很想表達我自己"},{"start":11147.885,"end":11176.803,"text":"好朋友的哥哥他也被可能停聘了或解聘了可是我那一天打電話給我同學我們已經52歲了他也滿了30年的教師的生涯可是他跟我講了如果今天如果沒有外部委員進來他是一個專業運動教練然後他可能以前就有這個習慣了他可能以前就會拿著禮棒打"},{"start":11177.805,"end":11207.225,"text":"小孩然後拿了錢斗就K下去了因為這個是上一代的傳承可是我們現在我們新的智慧我們還要這樣嗎所以這個是我今天為什麼說我一定要站出來跟大家講說教育部這一次的堅持然後以及肯定是獲得我們家長在上個禮拜五我們五個家長團體都站出來就是說校事會議我們支持分流但是不能匯除"},{"start":11209.502,"end":11227.216,"text":"那再來來講我今天帶來的數字就是我們希望為什麼要把它分流掉呢因為我們希望就是說今天消失會議的存在的爭議今天我們不是只有談我們還是就是程序上立即必須分流以及"},{"start":11229.044,"end":11247.262,"text":"那數字上面會說因為各位的所有的教師團體都知道解聘只有3.3%停聘也只有這邊可是我要反思來告訴各位難道這3.3%不適任的教師我們要繼續放在校園嗎"},{"start":11249.196,"end":11272.316,"text":"這一點是我們很難過的那受理率只有81.9%門檻過低所以我們一起來討論我們也希望能夠支持去把它分成像醫療院所一樣去分為輕重及重度的方式來處理可能時間我們希望教育部這邊如果能修法的話"},{"start":11273.581,"end":11289.928,"text":"我們是不是給就是消失婚姻更大的權利然後可以就是親政的時候直接結案還給老師一個就是很快速的一個月內就解決不要這些的困擾可是這一點我們又很擔心為什麼"},{"start":11290.788,"end":11310.922,"text":"如同我們的看法一樣本來我們想說應該會落在主管機關來做這一個裁決學校把案件送到了主管機關去之後可是現在來講去認定的這些又回到了哪裡又回到了校長校長真的是如果真的來講他本身沒有投票權他這個老師"},{"start":11314.764,"end":11330.242,"text":"家長 那人才資料庫那我們在想說人才資料庫到底是不是外聘的委員還是學校自己認定這又是另外一個問題所以我們在想說問題不是在制度本身而是在切法這個過濾網"},{"start":11331.804,"end":11346.191,"text":"我們需要的是篩選區而不是就是今天這麼好的制度我們就把它拆掉這個房子所以我各位來講說我們這一組的數字錢教總說消失會議的成案率只有3.38但是各位委員們"},{"start":11347.271,"end":11371.117,"text":"關注的這3.38這是真正的體罰霸凌學生的不適任教師違反教師法第十四十五十六十八條的教師如果我們覺得說調查那96%很麻煩我們就把這個制度廢掉那33%就會被漏完掉了繼續來傷害我們的孩子那受理率高達百分之八十一點九八證明了這個門檻"},{"start":11372.737,"end":11386.651,"text":"太低那所以我們的解決方案很科學你要裝到我們的過濾網那這個過濾網就是請這個消失會議的組織更能夠能夠見錢那把這百分之"},{"start":11388.504,"end":11403.017,"text":"96的溝通誤會就篩掉那集中火力來處理這3.3%那因為整個來講在於就是受理跟不受理現在又回到了學校所以我們也很替校長擔憂"},{"start":11404.905,"end":11430.51,"text":"所以我們這邊的呼籲的口號就是說要優化不能匯除要分流不能通殺要專業不要黑箱懇請立委及教育部站在孩子這一邊支持制度的精進守護校園安全的最後一道防線最後前長年在這邊再次的呼籲保障學生的權益校士會議不能匯除校士會議就是給補試任教師一張"},{"start":11434.071,"end":11455.54,"text":"承續免死的金牌所以我們願意支持修化提高門檻支持分流減量但我們絕不退讓守護孩子的底線謝謝大家好 謝謝黃正明理事長接下來我們有請桃園市教育產業工會吳明玉理事長發言"},{"start":11466.344,"end":11495.203,"text":"感謝各位委員還有在座的先進那我這邊代替桃園市教育產業公會那我是理事長那因為我們在基層最容易第一線遇到老師們被投訴的時候身心受創然後呢非常的無助來找我們的會務幹部做協助所以我們真的還是希望在保障家長跟學生的權益的同時是不是也能夠聽聽老師的心聲一個制度如果是讓大部分老師灰心讓大部分老師失去熱忱那這個制度一定要檢討甚至要廢除"},{"start":11498.005,"end":11522.272,"text":"好那現在呢我們看一下只休不費那雖然刪除了匿名檢舉但是其實在檢舉的部分還是保障很多透過大眾媒體等等的甚至於我們還是沒有看到家長必須要去簽竊解甚至於繳納保證金簡單來講我們目前的檢舉制度裡面家長依然是沒有任何責任的那他如何去我們如何去降低到投訴零成本的這個問題"},{"start":11523.925,"end":11543.521,"text":"那再來校長的權利還是很大我們從來我們在這裡看到校長雖然沒有投票權但是校長依然人員也是他找的再來調查人員的部分我們也完全沒有看到任何要修改這個調查人員的培訓制度調查人員是不是有重塑的機會這個部分我們都沒有看到"},{"start":11544.932,"end":11560.471,"text":"再來制度的四大隱憂那校長權利集中這個部分剛才我已經提過了那我們看一下調查品質的不一到底調查報告由誰來審核難道只有老師懂工會懂的時候幫老師檢舉那請問主管機關都沒有一個審核的標準嗎"},{"start":11562.52,"end":11584.574,"text":"另外像這一次我們爭了一個這個關克的其實關克這個在10月8號的這個教育部的諮詢會裡面其實我就有表達其實關克現在是一個互助老師們之間互相成長的一個機制尋堂也本來就已經在我們的教學現場就有了可是現在卻成為校事會議前端的一個"},{"start":11585.775,"end":11601.423,"text":"過程那我想這個過程中到底有沒有任何的保障我們看不到時間看不到要不要通知當事人理由也沒有看到目的是什麼也沒有看到次數所以我們很擔心的是像本市國小就曾經發生一個老師"},{"start":11602.483,"end":11620.996,"text":"他被投訴老師也不知道結果這個老師被裝監視器被入班關課長達三個月結果還是被開了校師會議所以這三個月老師根本不懂為什麼這麼多人要來看我的課可是沒有一個人跟他講所以你現在加入了這一個簡單來講你又"},{"start":11622.617,"end":11646.71,"text":"多了一個等於綁架老師讓老師在課堂上非常不穩定的一個狀態甚至小朋友看到後面有人關課奇怪為什麼關我們的課然後往後回頭看造成這個關課現場可能教學品質也會低落的問題所以拜託一下這一個部分是不是可以回歸到現在我們舊有的巡堂跟關課的制度不要再成為一個校師會議蒐證調查監控老師的一個錯誤的一個法條"},{"start":11649.898,"end":11677.55,"text":"再來第5條第5項裡面那當然大眾傳播媒體報導可視同檢舉這件事情可是問題來了你要如何去跟這個機關去做確認再來我的意思是說如果今天媒體他就是渲染式的那其實他等同於又強迫學校收到這樣的一種又是另外一種的匿名檢舉然後呢就要重啟調查就要開啟調查然後呢憲老師於不義所以"},{"start":11678.53,"end":11703.665,"text":"如果你又用了大眾傳播媒體這一塊的話更容易毀損老師的名譽而且零成本檢舉的風險更高那再來如果今天最後老師是不成立的請問一下相關機制有沒有要求大眾媒體要跟老師道歉呢如果你納入這個你應該相對來主管機關有沒有這個要求來保護老師在事後有所謂的名譽的回補再來條文第8條的部分"},{"start":11716.226,"end":11742.884,"text":"這個部分他說草案允許學校要當事人檢舉人或其他相關人員出席說明或陳述意見那這個很特別在於這個會議室有誰主持有誰召開有沒有會議記錄有沒有輔佐人的機制所以這個部分我們就認為說你如果再讓學校又有一個要求當事人然後這種叫做法律不明確的一個不確定的法律概念其實只是讓校事會議進入"},{"start":11745.986,"end":11759.712,"text":"進入一個讓更多學校可以用這些方法來整治老師的部分其實校師會議的最大的問題就在於當校長今天只要是好的校長我相信家長爛宿也不會有問題"},{"start":11760.952,"end":11783.461,"text":"今天問題就在於沒有辦法落實讓不好的校長退場的機制這是最大的問題所以當這樣的權力這樣的制度在校長的手上的時候我只能講老師們就是準備被整肅如果你平常就是意見多的你平常就是學校的教師團體的教師組織的領袖那你就很有可能在這樣的制度下被"},{"start":11784.361,"end":11810.925,"text":"凌虐被殘害你的身心讓你以後最好少講一點話好再來消失回憶那當然現在說校長沒有表決權但是問題裡面的人都是要他邀請的所以你要怎麼說校長沒有表決權那再來現在的問題在於調查小組人員還是沒有說是由誰來決定目前為止實務上調查小組人員就是校長挑的"},{"start":11811.673,"end":11831.618,"text":"你不能說是主任挑主任挑其實就是校長挑的那再來還有提到一個檢舉人撤回那我在這裡還是強調既然檢舉人都撤回了代表他跟老師之間已經做到一定的了解是不是就應該讓學校就停止調查而不是像現在的法規還是認為學校依職權繼續調查處理"},{"start":11834.159,"end":11850.647,"text":"再來調查人才庫的問題當然培訓時間過短前面已經有人講了少數人長期壟斷可能跟早期培育的人培育的單位有關那再來調查品質稱之不齊缺乏退場和監督機制我認為你要有好的調查人員政府就是要砸錢"},{"start":11851.947,"end":11864.379,"text":"讓這些人至少有像20全分班他必須要一年的時間六日去上相關的課程我覺得這樣子培訓出來的人至少他不是因為為了賺快錢今天去當這個調查委員"},{"start":11865.947,"end":11889.866,"text":"好再來目前為止我們還是沒有看到教師法關於這個停聘然後學術研究加給等等的薪資回補的部分都沒有做出修改我還是認為老師如果今天他真的沒有錯今天就因為教評會或者是什麼樣的制度讓他停聘了因為我相信第一線的老師不一定都那麼清楚所以一定要補償"},{"start":11891.567,"end":11918.222,"text":"那再來這部分我們還是最後強調調查報告在考核會前我們看不到老師看不到再來投訴老師 老師在上課 老師在被調查前他也不知道自己被投訴什麼好那我們的主張我今天就快速的給大家看一下最後謝謝大家希望我們有一個安全專業的教師環境 謝謝"},{"start":11920.458,"end":11939.406,"text":"好 謝謝吳明玉理事長接下來我們有請葉元之委員發言謝謝大家其實我們今天討論校師會議最主要目的是為了要解決老師慌"},{"start":11940.359,"end":11964.798,"text":"我記得大概八月初的時候當時在立法院質詢教育部長我們在討論教師荒的時候其實部長比較focus在比如說老師的待遇這方面後來我們有提到教師會議教師會議主要是讓老師覺得現在教學環境沒有那麼友善主要是這個問題讓老師感覺到不尊重而且在管教的時候動輒得救"},{"start":11965.629,"end":11988.745,"text":"那其實這樣的一個結果我覺得不是只有影響到老師那其實也有影響到其他想要讀書的學生那在老師的部分最近因為我有收到非常多來自全國的老師跟我反映他的狀況有的我看到真的是覺得難過比如說在幾天前我就收到他說他是某一個公立高中的學務人力那他看到學生"},{"start":11990.286,"end":12007.292,"text":"不乖然後他要去制止的時候被學生毆打他問我怎麼辦當然我跟他講說你可以提告啊因為任何人被打都可以提出傷害的告訴但這個老師說在這樣的環境下他怕他提告之後會可能就沒有這個工作了所以他選擇要隱忍"},{"start":12008.712,"end":12030.153,"text":"那我相信這一個老師應該不會是單一的事件他應該很多老師都會有這樣的一個想法就是當他在這個學校的環境裡面也許是學生反過來霸凌他可是他不敢為他自己發聲因為他怕因為這樣就得到這個校方比如說校長或者是行政人員不適當"},{"start":12031.451,"end":12052.983,"text":"你的對待這絕對不會只是冰山一角那我看了覺得非常難過然後另外我有聽到很多我當老師的朋友跟我講現在他們看到不良學生有的也不敢管例如說像有一個人就跟我說他們學校有個老師看到學生在抽菸然後"},{"start":12054.212,"end":12073.921,"text":"看到之後沒有過去制止反而在看到學生前一個樓梯就往下走了為什麼因為那個學生有可能是背後有幫派然後也有可能那個學生被管教之後投訴投訴之後老師就會在一個不知道什麼情況之下就會要去校職會議報告那這樣的一個管教權的上司"},{"start":12075.337,"end":12093.36,"text":"實際上我是覺得會連帶到學生的管教那其他善良的同學又怎麼辦呢我覺得這也是要一個要審視的問題我在網路上也有人傳給我一個我認為是一個正面的案例就是有一個老師看到學生玩"},{"start":12094.451,"end":12123.119,"text":"蝴蝶刀他去制止學生學生跟那個老師說這個只是一個沒有開封的金屬他是為了練習耍帥但老師覺得不能夠接受學生這樣說法就是有大聲的呵斥請他去校安人員叫請校安人員來處理後來這個老師就被輾轉告知說某某老師說要對你不利因為你實在太兇結果那個老師覺得非常有勇氣就說請他家長來"},{"start":12124.119,"end":12141.842,"text":"然後那家長來以後其實非常明理有去制止他的孩子而且跟孩子講說對老師的態度不可以這麼差那這個老師就在網路上講說其實老師適時的發出這種底氣有底氣的管教"},{"start":12142.803,"end":12164.918,"text":"是會有效的但我想要問在現今的環境底下有多少老師敢這樣有多少老師實際上是想息事寧人或有多少老師覺得多一次不如少一次那大家想想看這個傷害的是只有老師嗎其實傷害的是整個校園環境以及傷害了很多想讀書的學生的受教權"},{"start":12165.678,"end":12194.87,"text":"所以我講到這麼多我覺得我們要回過頭來講一個問題今天大家討論校士會議的改革當然是非常好這個我也有肯定過教育部長那時候八月的時候有到我的選區去跟國小座談然後接下來針對校士會議做改革當然方向怎麼樣細節怎麼樣今天透過討論很多專家學者給出意見我相信這個部分會越修越到可能可以符合比較接近教育學現場大家的需求"},{"start":12195.45,"end":12199.077,"text":"可是我們還要解決的問題就是那為什麼今天"},{"start":12200.285,"end":12224.532,"text":"不管是教改之後或者是在民國115年中華民國的今天老師這個職業老師變成在學校這麼的弱勢這個問題我覺得才是最嚴重的所以我之前在委員會質詢的時候就不斷的提出各種角度希望教育部可以好好的來協助來處理譬如說我們現在非常過度的保護"},{"start":12225.765,"end":12241.039,"text":"那些會影響其他同學上課的學生他可能也不想讀書然後在學校裡面然後調皮搗蛋然後影響老師對老師不禮貌三字經 五字經然後其他同學要讀書然後也干擾"},{"start":12242.02,"end":12267.002,"text":"然後這些人被寄大過也無所謂因為也不會退學也不用轉學甚至於成為勳章但是他在學校裡面就是會影響別人讀書那這些學生怎麼辦他不是只有影響學生他當然影響老師的教學你想想看一個班級裡面有一個這樣的同學老師到底要怎麼管教這個班級而且這個會產生模仿的作用當一個學生可以這樣那其他學生不會覺得說反正老師也不會管所以我們都這樣無所謂"},{"start":12268.763,"end":12288.673,"text":"然後如果老師去管的學生也許管教的方式讓學生覺得是不是有可能可以解釋成體罰的空間或者是稍微兇了一點哇 那接下來校職會議就來啦那這樣的惡性循環我們的校園環境怎麼會好呢所以我會希望說大家可以及時廣益針對我剛剛講這個狀況"},{"start":12292.515,"end":12319.664,"text":"要怎麼來處理當然我個人是有提出一個解方也跟 甚至上次跟行政院長跟部長都有提過就是我們來想辦法來成立一個中介學校如果有的學生真的每天在學校調皮搗蛋干擾到整個老師同學的上課讓大家無法好好的受教育的時候應該要有個強制機制讓這些學生到一個專屬於他們的適合的教育機構來做輔導"},{"start":12321.485,"end":12339.701,"text":"那我個人是推薦人本教育基金會因為他們都用愛的教育嘛感化這些學生我非常推薦而且我覺得這個部長希望你能夠往這個方向去然後校事會議的話這個我們之前也提過有的老師被通知要去校事會議根本不知道發生什麼事情到了才發現"},{"start":12341.782,"end":12369.289,"text":"其實這是屬於一個資訊很不對等的狀態現在的修改版本是說可以找一個輔佐員陪同我不知道律師可不可以還有就是教育部能不能編預算讓每一個縣市或者甚至學校有一個類似公社辯護人的角色幫助老師可以去協助面對校事會議這個要懂校事會議的人常常在處理的才了解否則一般的律師他沒有接觸這個他也不知道所以"},{"start":12370.049,"end":12387.702,"text":"一個建議是希望大家可以及時廣義讓我們一起解決這個教師荒讓老師回到有尊嚴然後讓我們的校園可以變得安全然後讓學生可以好好學習 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員接下來我們有請新竹縣教育產業工會吳南彥理事長主席"},{"start":12397.661,"end":12412.435,"text":"主席各位教育先進大家好剛剛聽了很多先進的發言那有部分大家講過的我就不再講了那所以有些地方我就會講得比較仔細那有些地方我就直接跳過了那"},{"start":12413.636,"end":12431.395,"text":"我要先說一句話就是我自己本身是學教育政策的所以對我來說校式會議它就是教育政策的一環那我在考慮校式會議的時候我考慮的點就是校式會議它能不能夠提升我們的教育品質"},{"start":12432.376,"end":12448.505,"text":"校士會議它能不能夠去落實我們的國家教育方針可是我們發現當校士會議實施之後第一個受災戶叫做各處市因為學校的各處市它變成辦案的衙門"},{"start":12449.938,"end":12466.566,"text":"我們已經不斷的說要行政減量結果我們卻給他更多的負荷所以行政大逃亡是很正常的然後行政應該要支援教學現在變成行政支援校事會議"},{"start":12469.329,"end":12498.536,"text":"好 那我現在要講這個部分匿名受理的陷阱我就講一個實例匿名的陷阱就是它只要事由明確我不知道各位知不知道現在的檢舉函已經可以進化到它完全可以讓老師達到消極資格的地步但是我們在調查之後卻發現全部都是不成立的"},{"start":12500.584,"end":12529.232,"text":"這是非常可怕的一件事情我為什麼知道他達到消極資格因為調查員是教育主管機關給名單的那事實上我們在看那個內容他的確都符合消極資格我們就一一的查下去的時候居然發現全部我要講喔全部不成立有沒有恐怖好那我們再講具名的部分其實具名沒有什麼效果"},{"start":12530.322,"end":12557.087,"text":"他還是有很大的空間為什麼第一個他具名他可以冒名他絕對可以冒名為什麼因為我們有查過那個案件他是具名啊就後來那個承辦單位就要找他問他要不要來接受訪談啊結果呢完全找不到人耶找不到人那也有他真的具名的一樣"},{"start":12558.396,"end":12583.277,"text":"全部不成立达到消极资格的投诉可是全部不成立这是非常可怕的一件事情可是就算是这样老师还是要面对结果老师为了要准备调查我几乎去访谈过的老师近来都是拿着满满的一叠他自己的教学记录他自己的那种学生的"},{"start":12584.317,"end":12602.508,"text":"聯絡部的拍照所有的line的截圖群組的截圖就是為了要證明他是無辜的請問老師是孩子的資源當老師把他的大部分的時間都在處理這個準備資料那麼損失的是誰是不是教育呢然後更可怕的是什麼"},{"start":12607.765,"end":12633.064,"text":"如果今天剛好被投訴的是在學校大家津津樂道的好老師全校老師精若寒蟬他會認為說天啊像他那樣的老師居然都被投訴那我們到底應該怎麼辦那接下來為什麼老師會那麼害怕調查因為有罪推定"},{"start":12634.571,"end":12653.16,"text":"很多的委員很多的調查員他們是有罪推定舉例來說他們會說如果你沒做這件事情別人為什麼要檢舉你你說你有沒有霸凌學生如果你說你有我才要繼續問下去如果你說你沒有我就不用問了"},{"start":12655.526,"end":12674.673,"text":"然後這些資料還不是空穴來風我跟各位分享我們是有調查員被送進校事會議他就說天啊好我自己去走一輪我跟他說帶個律師去那個律師本身也是有調查員資格結果進去叫做三個調查員對兩個調查員"},{"start":12677.659,"end":12691.628,"text":"我就說好 那你很好啊那他有什麼問題回來告訴我那這些都是他們告訴我的事情那我自己也當過輔佐人然後呢 那個老師還帶一個律師那個律師本身也有調查員資格所以進去變成三比三所以一切看得清清楚楚來 然後就算他們過了也造成了一個難以彌補的傷害"},{"start":12704.994,"end":12729.622,"text":"於是校事會議就會變成什麼?它造成了什麼?資深的老師,資深好老師他選擇離職然後比較之前無法退休的他也選擇離職我要跟各位說這是非常可惜的一件事情因為大概教學一個老師教學他大概到五年開始他的教學的整個的技術整個的技巧都開始成熟"},{"start":12730.302,"end":12747.577,"text":"他到了十多年的時候他會非常的游刃有餘如果一個老師他在五年之後在十多年這個時間他的體力上技巧上全部都很OK居然他選擇離職他是學生的損失他是教育的損失"},{"start":12749.67,"end":12764.832,"text":"然後呢留下來的呢認真的老師被告我可以跟各位在座的分享我自己調查的很多的案件許多被投訴的老師都是認真的老師他們進來受訪真的讓人很心疼"},{"start":12770.037,"end":12783.096,"text":"所以我们要做一个政策反思我们的教育基本法是为我们教育基本法的目标是提升教育品质培养优质国民那我们的校事会议呢它是不是已经本末倒置"},{"start":12784.458,"end":12798.961,"text":"來 我來探討一下調查員的部分他的調查的部分嚴重不足這是一個很大的問題然後我也跟各位分享我本身我是生平委員我是一個看案子非常細的人我必須要也要向全國昭告"},{"start":12800.066,"end":12826.452,"text":"你看調查報告是不夠的因為魔鬼藏在調查的細節裡所以一定要看調查的逐字稿因為我就真的看過調查報告的內容是逐字稿裡面完全沒有的而且完全顛倒好 那我最後我最後再講一下我一定要破解一個迷思師師相護"},{"start":12828.126,"end":12843.391,"text":"我自己任教這麼多年第一個我沒有私事相護但是我必須要講很多時候是沒有案子送進來的沒有案子請問怎麼護有的縣市專審會一年一個案子兩個案子都沒有案子進來他要怎麼護"},{"start":12844.671,"end":12861.213,"text":"我觉得我们为了教育专业把关是重要的那最后我很快地讲一下我觉得还是要顾本培元为什么我觉得教育不应该好地去思考为什么原本的制度会失灵那李学长最后30秒好不好最后30秒"},{"start":12862.314,"end":12886.331,"text":"為什麼我們的制度會失靈為什麼我們要不斷的外加進去這就好像一個人他的臟器不好好 我就跟你外加一個什麼呼吸器外加一個什麼東西然後我們不去思考要怎麼樣讓他的臟器變得正常讓他變成一個健康的人以上是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝吳理事長那接下來我們有請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":12899.834,"end":12927.105,"text":"謝謝主席部會的各位官員現場所有來自全國各地的團體的代表人以及所有的教育夥伴先進大家早安我是伍麗華我也曾經在教育界待過27年但是呢在我離開之後才有修訂這個辦法有了校事會議"},{"start":12928.547,"end":12949.434,"text":"不過我來到立法院我確實接受過很多教師的陳情有一些處境真的令我感到非常的不捨所以也感謝大家一同的來發聲希望我們的校事會議能夠更精進"},{"start":12950.814,"end":12957.524,"text":"那其實我知道的是教育部之前也做了幾次的研商會議邀請各個團體"},{"start":12960.066,"end":12988.164,"text":"但是上週五的預告讓我們終於可以看到明確的文字所以今天的這場公聽會很有意義因為大家就預告出來的文字呢再來去做一些執政所以我希望教育部今天所有人的發言應該都會成為我們在這個預告期當中可以"},{"start":12989.304,"end":13007.571,"text":"來精進的部分那我自己呢其實在上個會期五月份的時候在這邊質詢教育部我提到就是要處理匿名檢舉另外我請教育部要兩週內給我提供校事會議案件的樣態跟數據"},{"start":13009.841,"end":13029.612,"text":"那麼我拿到的結果呢確實我們看到有八成的案件會送入消失會議但是有一半是不成立而且成立的當中又只有一半是寄申戒這證明了什麼爛訴兩字不假"},{"start":13033.82,"end":13054.761,"text":"因為很浪費時間 因為有很多竟然是考核辦法就可以處理的那怎麼會用這麼大的時間流程進入到校事會議這個就偏離了我們原先校事會議設置的一個初衷"},{"start":13056.345,"end":13072.398,"text":"我在這邊我也得要說今天的主題叫做解決教師荒對 很多的老師可能會因為校事會議讓他覺得對現在的教育生態環境感到挫折而離開"},{"start":13073.539,"end":13086.281,"text":"但是也不可否認當年有很多的聲音也是因為我們的學校出現了一些不適任的教師當然也有不適任主任不適任校長"},{"start":13087.842,"end":13110.659,"text":"結果教育局處解決不了我們的校長也解決不了我要掉校我也覺得我對教育很失望對校長失望對教育局處失望所以才會有了這樣的一個修法動作那現在怎麼辦呢我們只知道這幾年推動校事會議偏離了它原來設置的目的"},{"start":13111.44,"end":13126.137,"text":"我們原意是為了審查不適任教師來保障學生的受教權結果沒有想到大量的案件進入門檻又低匿名的檢舉又氾濫形成了老師的恐懼與壓力"},{"start":13127.899,"end":13149.85,"text":"所以到底校事會議有沒有必要我覺得核心問題應該是在精進怎麼樣去精進來強化老師對這個制度的信任所以在諸多次的質詢跟陪伴像是全校總公聽會我們也有參加我們也參加過好幾個場次的討論"},{"start":13153.732,"end":13163.986,"text":"我們是希望說應該要設置一個檢舉的門檻能溝通的在前期就溝通再來就是分流"},{"start":13165.436,"end":13185.859,"text":"進入到考核的就進入到考核最後真的不得已確實有需要用校事會議來檢視那這個部分我們才進入那另外就是到底大家對於這個人才庫是極不相信的那這個人才庫到底要怎麼處理"},{"start":13187.284,"end":13214.101,"text":"那我们的这一些老师如果调查结果不成立他的名誉如何补偿当然这个是大家说名誉到底要怎么补偿是很困难的但是至少这个非常不合理的薪资是不是应该要全数的还给他甚至应不应该提供家长救济的管道因为你不给他提供管道他找名单"},{"start":13214.961,"end":13240.524,"text":"他找媒體結果形成一個惡性的循環反而解決不了問題所以在這邊我也已經提出了教師法第25條的修法版本教師待遇條例第19條的修法版本都把本心跟學術研究佳績把學術研究佳績把它補回去"},{"start":13241.892,"end":13259.855,"text":"可能人事單位會說因為他沒有上班不能領但是很抱歉學術研究跟到底有沒有上班是無關的更何況他是被迫不能夠上班那甚至是像高中以下學校教師解聘不續聘提聘或資遣辦法"},{"start":13260.636,"end":13287.567,"text":"關於人才庫的回訊關於不適任人才庫的淘汰機制關於利益迴避機制這個辦法我們都要求教育部要重新的來檢討那這個部分呢其實我最後也想說提供一些國際的案例我覺得陪伴在教育裡面很重要當孩子們學生遇到性別的問題"},{"start":13289.144,"end":13316.565,"text":"我們本來就應該要陪伴學生陪他走過而不是讓他獨自面對當老師遇到了問題我們不應該放任老師獨自面對我覺得要去陪伴所以呢我們也看到像日本很多地方的教育部門他們設有法治人員或者是設置第三方的專責機構我覺得這個部分都是可以提供教育部來"},{"start":13317.666,"end":13333.099,"text":"了解 來去試行看看來聽聽看大家的意見那最後我就是只有一句話我覺得老師想要離開教育現場的原因很多校事會議是其中一個"},{"start":13334.434,"end":13350.381,"text":"那我們不能認為哪一個是只是其中一個就不重視它不解決它我覺得所有想要讓老師離開教育現場的原因包括不適任教師包括濫訴的校試會議帶給我們恐慌的各種制度枷鎖"},{"start":13352,"end":13374.933,"text":"站在教育主管立場我覺得教育部我們一定要站在教師的一方畢竟有快樂的教師我們才會有快樂的孩子我們才會有快樂的國家在這邊謝謝大家好 謝謝吳麗華委員接下來我們有請全國中小學校長協會陳清逸理事長"},{"start":13396.843,"end":13407.278,"text":"委員好 部長 各位教育部長官 還有在座與會的各位的教育夥伴 大家午安謝謝給校長協會有機會表達意見那麼"},{"start":13411.926,"end":13427.326,"text":"在這個校士會議這件事情上面校長的角色非常的三難不只兩難校長是執行主管機關的議制的人他必須要來執行這樣的一個法規"},{"start":13428.627,"end":13449.837,"text":"那麼校長在還沒有當校長之前也是老師他也是有可能會被投訴校師會議的人當了校長之後還會可能被投訴不適任校長的人但他仍然要來執行這個事情在整個事件上面我們剛剛聆聽各位先進的一些說明可以發現"},{"start":13451.517,"end":13477.158,"text":"這個事情不管校長有沒有參與在其中只要你受理了老師就會罵你是整肅老師只要你不受理家長就會罵你是包庇老師最後就算調查結果都結束了送到教育主管機關教育主管機關還會退回六次說你校長是辦事不力所以校長在這個角色裡面真的是三方都為難"},{"start":13478.669,"end":13497.735,"text":"不過校長畢竟還是得要處理校務必須要中理校務所以我們提出三個建議在修法上面第一個在這個機制的啟動上面希望能夠是專業而且是謹慎的不要讓他隨隨便便就能夠啟動"},{"start":13500.455,"end":13518.876,"text":"那麼在判斷上面要專業誰來判斷如果只是學校裡的教師代表家長代表跟加上一位人才庫的人員他們是不是有足夠的專業原來我們提出來是希望由教育局處能夠"},{"start":13520.457,"end":13541.73,"text":"設立一個長治的單位或是委員會那麼這些人他長期在判斷這件事情是不是能夠比較專業能夠比較謹慎這是第一個就是啟動希望能專業能夠謹慎第二個程序要能夠公平能夠公正對檢舉者應該要透明的資訊不應該匿名"},{"start":13548.139,"end":13566.965,"text":"對於檢舉不實而造成老師的損害應該給予老師補償那麼讓這個程序有公平有正義第三個權責要相符就像剛剛也有夥伴說就算校長不參與投票校長還是權力過大"},{"start":13567.984,"end":13596.863,"text":"那麼校長都已經不投票仍然是權力過大也就是說校長到底有沒有權要不要負這個責如果是必須負這個責那他就應該有這個權如果他完全不需要負這個責那他就不需要有這個權最後為什麼會有不適合教師需要校事會議來處理是不是要考慮從教師禁用的源頭就來"},{"start":13598.356,"end":13623.641,"text":"把關教評會有沒有實質的可以審查聘任教師的權利目前幾乎是沒有那麼在校長主持教評會在教師的禁用沒有實質權利可以審查教師真正能不能試任能不能進入這個職場最後面要處理校事會議要讓校長"},{"start":13624.963,"end":13636.699,"text":"沒有權有責要處理不適合的老師這個頭跟尾看起來都怪怪的是不是從源頭就可以開始處理以上 謝謝"},{"start":13639.761,"end":13660.932,"text":"好 谢谢陈清一理事长这个校长好可惜你的时间没有用完好今天我们所有在现场的专家学者还有我们登记发言的委员均已发言完毕然后我们现在有范云委员提出书面的意见我想做一个简单的结论第一个"},{"start":13661.852,"end":13688.632,"text":"今天很高兴我相信部长在这个地方很辛苦也做了一个早上不过应该也是收获满满因为我们有教师代表家长代表校长代表团体代表甚至我们有律师委员也到教育部不管是部长国教署长都到所以我觉得今天的公听会所提出来的意见其实非常有参考性但我要提醒一点也是我们大家今天所担心的我们不希望预告的草案"},{"start":13689.692,"end":13717.626,"text":"後來變成一模一樣的公告的定案所以我們今天有這麼多的寶貴意見所以一定要帶回去仔細的研究去斟酌到底純廢與否那如果我們之間是要調整那到底應該怎麼做可以更細緻更完善那當然我相信我以及在座的所有的人包括部長我們其實都是有多重身份的我們可能是教師我們也可能是官員我們可能是委員但我們也有可能是家長所以我們在看校師會議這件事情的時候"},{"start":13719.144,"end":13739.186,"text":"要從多面向去看那今天哪一位發言我有一點忘記了其實我們應該是要想一想請部裡面也要去考量一下到底我們在談這些法案在談這些規則固然重要可是呢追根究底應該怎麼樣去營造一個非常友善互相相愛然後互相尊重"},{"start":13739.747,"end":13768.207,"text":"互相理解的一个教育环境我觉得这个是最重要的所以呢我们怎么样去捍卫教师的专业那我们怎么样去建立这个学习这个校园的伦理因为我们怎么样让亲师生以及民意代表之间呢有一个很好的互动我想这个都是今天我提出来让这个部长特别参考的当然今天有几个重点第一个重点就是说我们在整个校师会议的执行上面是不是一个都是"},{"start":13768.887,"end":13792.097,"text":"淪為一個必須一定要走流程或走過場那過於不急這個都不好就像剛才我們今天的校長唯一的這個校長代表其實我聽他講的好像也蠻心酸的這個三方夾擊不過現在我們學校裡面還是非常需要這個校長在學校hold住的那當然針對我們的草案當中提出來的可能要把這個匿名把它剔除掉"},{"start":13792.877,"end":13812.83,"text":"但是全部的剔除還是要有條件的剔除這個可能部長也要去思考再者我們所謂的具名或公開的檢舉我們就受理但是今天與會有很多人提到到底什麼叫做公開如果是媒體的話公開那又要怎麼去跟媒體做聯繫最後一個也是今天大家有一個聚焦的在講"},{"start":13813.61,"end":13837.831,"text":"我们今天被调查这个陈岸或陈楚其实到后来真的是很少数可是在这个过程当中被调查的老师以及这个老师周遭他的同侪其实大家都人人自为压力也非常的大那一旦呢其实经调查所谓的还他清白之后他的薪资他的名誉我们应该要怎么样去给他回复我觉得这也是今天的整个重点所以呢我想"},{"start":13838.311,"end":13864.094,"text":"最後的一個結論就是千萬不要讓預告草案經過這個公聽會以後完完整整的還是以預告草案作為一個公告的一個定案那今天的公聽會其實這些意見其實就白開了所以以上做一個簡短的這個說明那謝謝大家的參與那現在我想我們留一個時間讓我們的部長來做一個回應我沒有限制您時間您可以盡情的來說我相信大家都很願意來聽謝謝"},{"start":13869.582,"end":13896.354,"text":"我們主席所有關心台灣的教育所有的夥伴大家辛苦了剛才其實我非常喜歡主席剛才所做的一個結論我想我們的想法都一致了今天在這裡都是關心台灣教育希望台灣的教育更好希望校園更友善希望老師的專業能夠真正的被這個捍衛同時"},{"start":13900.643,"end":13927.008,"text":"儿少的一个学生的学习权益也能够被保障我想确实这一年半来我在看到许多的在地方到许多的团体的反应的建议我其实忽然笑了一跳为什么我们校园本来亲师生是共同合作的家长 校长"},{"start":13928.26,"end":13952.125,"text":"老師一定要合作老師好 學生才可能好那麼怎麼我們變成校園多了一份彼此的不信任我想這絕對不是台灣長期教育發展支撐我們優質教育的一個力量"},{"start":13952.967,"end":13961.959,"text":"所以我其實也一直期待為什麼這一次的一個校士會禮兵我想怎麼樣去確保我們的專業本來剛才也有一些"},{"start":13964.454,"end":13992.927,"text":"这个教师代表也提到我们老师的这个校长或者老师或者行政的一个巡堂或者老师可能因为班级经营的一句话而可能不小心伤到学生但是他事实上过去一路走来他其实是很称职的老师我们不应该因为一个小小的一句话而被扩散所以这个东西我们其实在第一个开宗明义就希望学校"},{"start":13994.911,"end":14010.34,"text":"校長行政人員或者老師彼此互相提醒有一個常態性的比較是一個彼此從專業輔導的一個角度來支持而不是什麼事情都直接進入到校務智慧"},{"start":14011.189,"end":14024.495,"text":"第二個我們也看到從這樣一個統計數據裡邊我們也希望說本來一些輕微的行為他就是只要規劃一句提醒彼此互相提醒就解決了"},{"start":14025.939,"end":14052.896,"text":"如果有一些稍微在需要有一些協助輔導的但是這裡邊又不是我們原來當時校事會議的初衷他應該在這個程序裡面就直接分流就用這個等於說老師有一些行為他確實也必須要被規勸或者被進入到考核就直接到考核因為他真的不能全部到"},{"start":14054.113,"end":14070.333,"text":"这一个不续聘这一个解聘的一个阶段那我们也看到了刚才其实委员所关心的我也不需要坦白重宽我们内部的讨论譬如说有居民的市政好像很具体"},{"start":14071.516,"end":14089.667,"text":"可是在整個這個流程其實我們能不能確認像委員所講的雖然他有具名有電話可是你電話名字打過去你聯絡不上或者他根本沒有提出這一個那這就是匿名我想我們的匿名是除了不具名以外"},{"start":14090.507,"end":14114.095,"text":"即使他有具名他的事證好像講的都是似乎都是真的但是當我們在確認我們在這個流程裡邊其實都有做了一些討論我想我們也希望民主社會裡邊我希望委員所關心的或者我們代表許多團體所關心的我們確實是希望是這樣的"},{"start":14115.655,"end":14141.785,"text":"所有具名具實指控的他必須要有一個機制來確保他的個資不會被外泄我們事實上在這個預告裡邊我們只要如果這個學校違反這個個資他事實上是需要被這個溢出的我想這些東西我們事實上也都做了一些考量那另外"},{"start":14143.732,"end":14159.562,"text":"刚才我看我们有更多的一些委员来自不同的想法事实上我们当时的一个考量就希望学校本来是一个专业的团体所组成老师都是来自于各个领域学科专家"},{"start":14160.402,"end":14183.429,"text":"剛才校長協會的陳理事長也特別提到他原來也是在當校長之前他還是老師他還是一個專業的老師隨著專業的一個發展隨著行政當然歷練被學校的老師所肯定然後獲領選為校長我想我們都希望本營專業的出發然後有"},{"start":14184.469,"end":14205.34,"text":"為什麼當時會想到說校長跟老師代表是因為這個學校的家長會長也好或者家長委員或者老師代表他們終是最了解學校的生態最了解學校的這一個狀況然後再有一個社會公正人士這裡邊我們就可以很快速的把那些"},{"start":14206.32,"end":14225.71,"text":"不需要的不是不需要進入到這一個校士會的這個調查小組的我們就把它分流掉我想這一個部分也是我們當時的一個想法那當然譬如說剛才有許多這個不同團體特別包含我們提到是不是有地方"},{"start":14226.81,"end":14250.968,"text":"这个全职单位或者由地方教育局处来承担这个先分流的这个制度我想我们当然也可以来再来斟酌我们来跟地方县市教育局处我想我们可以再来讨论因为事实上我这一年多来我们其实一些某种比例或者大部分的老师他们其实"},{"start":14251.969,"end":14274.023,"text":"是对由地方教育局处因为经常会教很多的这个下去然后学校就一定要处理所以造成了许多的行政上的一些挑战跟困难我们总是希望回到专业但是我也非常理解我们刚才许多的教师团体特别提到"},{"start":14275,"end":14299.85,"text":"要把它毁掉但是如果我们的教评会我们学校的考核能够正常的一个运作我相信当时就不会有另外的一个希望有更多的一些公正团体或者社会的一个公正人士能够进来对学校的许多的案例上的一个推我相信有一部分是来自于学校的也需要"},{"start":14300.97,"end":14310.737,"text":"部分來自於家長也希望有一些更客觀的團體那終究我想我們走過紛擾我們總是希望回到專業"},{"start":14312.708,"end":14339.48,"text":"我相信不管來自於民間關心台灣教育發展的團體不管家長團體不管校長團體不管老師團體大家都是希望我們學校是友善的老師能夠本一專業指導我們的學生對家長來講他最在意的是他的小孩子能不能安心的學習而且免於恐懼或者免於霸凌我想這都是我們共同努力的目標"},{"start":14340.14,"end":14355.399,"text":"那刚才也有委员包含主席刚才也提到我们有一些委员也提到比如说我的老师受到不实的指控结果事后查了他被停止了查了"},{"start":14357.014,"end":14386.597,"text":"也發現是受到不死的指控這時候他的權益如何被回復他的名義如何被這一個能夠保護我想這一個部分我們確實在內部也做了許多的討論那當然屬於人事法規這一個部分我想我們會繼續來努力來跨部會來溝通我想我們也總是希望今天請各位"},{"start":14388.696,"end":14415.632,"text":"不管你來自於哪裡我們的心情是一樣的我們希望台灣的教育品質是好的台灣沒有太多的天然資源我們靠的今天我們靠的就是我們培養的人才我們的產業能夠為世界所用我們的人才能夠被世界看到我們的貢獻絕對是因為我們在教育這一個場域我們大家大多數的老師是堅守崗位"},{"start":14417.493,"end":14438.571,"text":"盡心的用專業在培養我們人才所以我想也利用這個機會辛苦大家我想我們一起來努力台灣的教育我們期待它只能更好我們也不會希望有任何的一個不良老師他是留在學校我想這不是一個負責任的一個教育行政"},{"start":14439.532,"end":14450.084,"text":"該有的作為再次感謝大家耽誤大家的時間謝謝大家也謝謝我們主席用心的安排這個公聽會我們受益良多謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝部長"},{"start":14454.935,"end":14475.601,"text":"主席報告依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考"},{"start":14476.741,"end":14505.278,"text":"我們會把各位的發言意見跟所有的書面資料綜合歸納會邊陳冊送交本院全體委員及所有出席的與會貴賓今天非常的感謝所有的關心教育的夥伴們出席今天的公聽會那你們所提的所有的寶貴意見我想不管是我們在教育文化委員會在教育部我們都會審慎考量來作為未來來這個教育部提供修法的依據再次的謝謝大家會議到這裡結束謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f7810386976b5f5434ed4b485b48840d78e4d8d262ea90fa57e994b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:08:31 - 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這個會影響到因為最近的這個天氣沒有下雨那是不是部長要做個建議啦"},{"start":223.288,"end":233.881,"text":"因為剛剛也台南市議會也剛執行結束嘛這是現場的影片這就是兩個小時以前的影片你如何建議"},{"start":237.367,"end":261.667,"text":"報告委員那個台南為了撲滅這個火已經協調自來水公司裝設臨時的消防水有啦但是現在效率變比較高那我們正式建議他要把它撲滅正式建議對對對好所以是現在現在正式建議我從開始我們就是態度就是應該儘速把它撲滅"},{"start":262.708,"end":270.096,"text":"所以市政府是不聽你的建議這很認真 因為這個量實在是十幾萬噸我知道十幾萬噸 那可以撲滅不撲滅的話因為為什麼鄉親會這樣質疑因為不是第一次"},{"start":278.562,"end":296.801,"text":"那在這邊大家有提出警告好大家都很認真現在的現況就是這樣現在的現況就是這樣所以部長還是建議即刻撲滅剩下我們再來善後處理你的補助款不會減少"},{"start":298.616,"end":326.444,"text":"不會吧不會看因為已經燒掉百分之六十了所以扣掉百分之六十的補助款後面還是有灰還有各種 不會不會全額還是按照原本的三到五億補助款是不是我們還是依照那個實際花包的數額所以就不是這個三到五億就是以到時候清運的實際金額這個對不會影響到台南的財政等等之類的"},{"start":327.924,"end":350.039,"text":"這個跟財政無所謂 我們要的是一個態度那環境部現在正式建議台南市政府應該要即刻強力的把這個火源撲滅 是不是是好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員 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再次有請部長部長 去年您上任以來我透過您的臉書實際上我也有跟過你一起去關心我們原鄉的資源回收廠"},{"start":29.328,"end":45.278,"text":"其中在1月12號也就是今年的年初因為我自己是來自馬家鄉因為我們鄉公所我們從這個照片中您也有親自去您可以看得到他們有幾個問題第一個就是"},{"start":46.218,"end":68.543,"text":"他們的這些資源回收的垃圾爆量那您當天有看到有兩層樓那麼高那另外呢這個也是原鄉普遍的一個現象就是我們要等資源回收車很久原因是什麼因為幅員遼闊所以經常收收收 哇 滿了"},{"start":70.183,"end":93.049,"text":"他又要再回去再過來所以也變成大家在等候這個垃圾車的時間就是不確定性很高因為我們有很獨特的一個地理環境的一些劣勢所以很多的原鄉都很期待能夠有垃圾車能夠有資源回收車"},{"start":94.289,"end":99.891,"text":"可是部長我當然也要謝謝您因為我上個月10月27號我才剛去台東的鹽坪鄉因為當時前幾年他們有爭取想要有個好的資源會收場但是他的規模我們都說是環保園區因為會給他們作業廠房"},{"start":114.878,"end":118.582,"text":"然後呢也會有洗車台設備的機房有地棒天車吊車等等喔他們非常的高興我想很多的原鄉應該都很需要那在這裡可是我看到齁我特別來所知110年到114年原鄉申請垃圾車跟核定的狀況您看看"},{"start":139.26,"end":167.843,"text":"僅核定率是39% 4成不到如果以今年來看的話他的核定率更是一成不到7%我之所以會來這個地方質詢是因為地方有陳情那我之所以又來這個地方質詢是因為他們的陳情一直看不到結果好的結果所以我想請教一下部長您的看法"},{"start":171.038,"end":195.189,"text":"包委員 我們垃圾車確實需求的比較多我們的經費比較少一點所以它有一定的條件譬如說它要15年以上然後20萬公里等等之類的要求這些會優先把它做太亂那這個就是重點了"},{"start":196.409,"end":212.589,"text":"為什麼 我剛剛一直強調原鄉有它獨特的地理環境條件不一樣啊服務員遼闊 那個車子要跑我以前諮詢有講過 很陡欸有時候那個廚餘桶還會流支出來餒"},{"start":214.221,"end":229.778,"text":"所以我才會講說要針對原鄉不同的環境去訂定不同的條件讓我們原鄉的這個垃圾的問題可以被解決所以到底有沒有這樣的思維我們應該要有這樣的思維啊"},{"start":230.495,"end":248.418,"text":"報告委員這一個原鄉車子消磨也很恐怖對原鄉跟濱海地區我們另訂有比較放寬的規定就是說它如果是相當陡的或者是濱海地區易腐蝕的這個部分可以縮短它的年限那什麼時候可以看到這個"},{"start":249.501,"end":272.615,"text":"不過這個我們如果有這種狀況我們會去現場請同仁看一下是不是他操作或保養的狀況我們去輔導如果真的這車子不能再使用我們會給他們做一個補助署長 110年到114年核定率39%今年度核定率7%所以我不希望一拖再拖"},{"start":274.096,"end":292.251,"text":"這個問題要正視 因為我們是為國家 我們是為地球我希望如果這是政府很重要的政策目標不夠錢就編錢啊博報委員 因為那個明年財化法過後這個我們的 明年的這個預算幾乎是零了"},{"start":293.115,"end":320.833,"text":"所以部長要把我們的困難要講出來我們要請我們的行政院支持那這個部分其實是人民會成為我們的底氣我們背後支持的力量我希望我們很快的可以看到那我也希望大概兩週後可以給我回覆意見好不好因為這今年的大概就原來的量比較少那明年的這個財化法過後"},{"start":322.194,"end":338.096,"text":"這個垃圾的處理都是屬於地方的事務所以我們在這個編列預算裡面明年真的沒有這樣的預算我們就是要想辦法啊因為很重要啊我們的政府如果因為很重要的一件事就說沒有錢"},{"start":340.138,"end":366.105,"text":"這個老百姓聽不下去所以我還是希望我們可以來檢討可以來討論也給我一個回覆好嗎那不好意思主席我其實有兩題另外一個問題就關於廚餘啦那因為時間的關係我也快速的來問當然我們知道廚餘禁止養豬的政策我們不知道會不會成為長期的方向啦那我其實是很想聽聽看你可不可以簡單的回答"},{"start":366.745,"end":390.558,"text":"現在我們這個禮拜我們跟農業部已經溝通好一個意見大概有好幾個方案那這個禮拜會內部再協商然後在行政院的部分再協商如果我們希望趕快看這禮拜或下禮拜趕快對外宣布因為有太多的不一樣的利害團體給我們一些想法例如說雖然說大家覺得說禁養廚藝是一個趨勢可是也有一些黑豬的業者說"},{"start":391.599,"end":408.748,"text":"一定要有一定要有然後因為是從戰略的考量因為廚餘畢竟它是一個資源循環那有的呢可以有共同徵組那有的呢是覺得說是不是還有一些更好的方式能夠來處理所以現在每個縣市都不一樣所以我們現在正在會診當中那我其實"},{"start":410.49,"end":438.969,"text":"覺得無論如何從源頭減量絕對是重要的所以呢我們也看到有兩個養豬大縣雲林屏東他們地方政府是有在補助那個廚餘機啦但是我想講的是說你看這個雲林補助上限兩成屏東補助上限四成我常常覺得被詬病政府就是補助的思維就是很喜歡說補助幾成幾成"},{"start":440.35,"end":465.338,"text":"可是你這樣子補助的時候一點意義都沒有因為只有中產階級他才會去做這件事他沒有辦法被普遍的接受其實很多人很想但是你這樣的補助模式他就做不到那況且我們說如果中央可以來全面的來協助這個很重要為什麼因為非洲豬瘟的發生他不是那個豬場啊"},{"start":466.838,"end":490.348,"text":"我們是大家一同的都是受災戶啊這個對我們整個國家的整體的影響是很嚴重的我們並不是說在哪一個縣哪一個豬場發生所以我覺得這個中央來做我是今天是希望部長因為時間的關係我是很希望啦如果有一些事情真的是攸關全國人民的"},{"start":491.148,"end":510.922,"text":"經濟也好 安全也好我覺得就應該要提出這樣的一個政策思維我們怎麼樣全民來落實另外我們最近原鄉那個糞尿的那個造成那個什麼西瓜蚊子滿天飛所以我特別想要請教就是現在大家都在幫忙找方法"},{"start":512.308,"end":533.237,"text":"過去改變人類世界蜜蜂農業產寶寶人類的紡織業現在說黑水盟也會改變我們未來的世界所以我相信部長您一定在這個方面應該了解很多啦而且可以成為一個循環經濟啦那他也可以呢讓我們可以養雞那個養蛋"},{"start":536.798,"end":555.225,"text":"我知道的是你們很支持但是我都沒有看到相關的預算而且這個黑水盟他被使用的管署才其他裡面的1.9%所以黑水盟竟然已經成為主要的政策目標方向我不知道你們未來有沒有想要提出積極的計畫"},{"start":556.625,"end":564.588,"text":"我們目前有一個計畫在整合支持當中那部長我為我原鄉爭取一個啦我是希望說我們原鄉給我們有沒有可能給我們一個事辦計畫我們原鄉很適合養雞呀也很適合需要這樣的一個廚餘的那個處理方式可不可以選定一個地方給我們原鄉一個事辦計畫嘛以後全國可以來觀摩"},{"start":580.273,"end":582.759,"text":"OK 好 我們請我們學安署來規劃一下這樣的內容好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f78103b9f6490915ae2309408e1b0d34147d14d262ea90fa57e9948ee19690b6fa94555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:24:01 - 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堆到盡量塞 盡量滿可是你們完全忽略了物理跟化學的極限這簡直是在各個地方堆置大型的生化炸彈啊為什麼呢"},{"start":154.634,"end":178.991,"text":"你們就一直堆可是你知道耗氧發酵跟豔氧發酵並存你上面的堆製在表層的是耗氧這個分解產生熱量可是在底層的因為缺氧進行了豔氧分解一定勢必會產生早氣再來講蓄熱效應當堆製的高度過高你們這個堆製最高幾米這個應該有到十幾米左右"},{"start":183.01,"end":200.869,"text":"20米 20米所以在這裡是堆到四層樓 五層 六層樓 七層樓高堆那麼高 它內部的熱量無法散發溫度會持續飆升 蓄熱效應第三 自然點"},{"start":202.43,"end":224.797,"text":"當內部的溫度超過80度C甚至更高而且夾碗的濃度達高到爆炸的下陷一旦接觸到空氣或因為塌陷產生火花就會瞬間的引爆就一定勢必會燒起來所以我們你會覺得說就是這樣子堆啊保庭有感覺就是這樣堆嗎 是嗎"},{"start":228.894,"end":242.922,"text":"這個包括我有去看過一些國家的最近去看的其實他們都有一定的處理的做法而且我也觀察到不會臭不會臭然後而且他復土的程序都做得很完整我知道災禍廢棄物是很臨時的"},{"start":245.283,"end":261.897,"text":"但是我們從制度面整個政府從過去到現在從來沒有在災害的基礎上學到教訓不斷的累積教訓然後得到一套指引和方法我現在跟你講日本環境省發布的災害廢棄物的對策指引我也跟你講過了"},{"start":263.118,"end":274.384,"text":"災害廢棄物的對策指針針對臨時堆置場人家制定了非常細緻的技術規範這個指引的核心精神像在這個災害廢棄物他就講不是怎麼堆而他的核心精神就是要防止他怎麼防止他燒起來"},{"start":284.429,"end":303.717,"text":"所以也只去研究日本環境省的技術文件台灣 你們都沒有去研究台灣政府 我跟你們講了幾個月了也沒有去看 也沒有研究阿蘇丁你有看嗎 你有研究嗎台灣跟日本避開我們缺少的三大關鍵管理技術是什麼"},{"start":305.407,"end":330.212,"text":"你有沒有去看那份執行 你就不知道 我就跟你說了在這個執行上就跟你說了 叫你去看有沒有看過委員我們現在有內部在座討論討論了什麼就是我們會訂定我們的災害護照我現在說台灣缺少的跟日本這個管理執行缺少了三大關鍵的管理技術是什麼 你有沒有想法"},{"start":333.041,"end":356.997,"text":"呃 請委員指導你都沒有啦 你說話中間都沒有記住因為你上次跟我說了之後 我有交代他們我們要開始去研議這個東西如果有去研議這麼長久了 臉看都沒看啊 我跟你講 我直接跟你講日本的指引明確的指出 為了防止火災佔置場的堆置必須遵守物理極限不能夠因為垃圾多就無限的堆高"},{"start":357.978,"end":383.573,"text":"他們的精神就是怎麼防止它燒起來嘛那你就要去檢視第一個高度的限制日本可燃性廢棄物的堆置高度嚴格限制在幾公尺以下 你知道嗎蘇丁你知道嗎 保定不知道這是藍面的蘇丁你知道日本嚴格限制在堆置幾公尺以下嗎我們一般的堆置是在五公尺日本就是說五公尺"},{"start":384.232,"end":407.149,"text":"如果沒有經過破碎的修繭樹枝甚至建議要低到3公尺理想值是2公尺科學的理由是因為超過5公尺堆體內部會發熱速度將大於表面的散熱速度導致熱量急劇的升高累積蓄熱那台灣的現況你們這個烏樹林占智場"},{"start":410.912,"end":428.548,"text":"20米20公尺六七層樓高新峰也埋藏的堆積也是在這種高度的熱力學上注定必然一定會發生自然這個不是意外不是不可抗拒的不是是必然的 必然的"},{"start":429.288,"end":442.722,"text":"這是管理的問題啊第二個這個物理的極限第二個面積跟體積的極限日本規範單一一塊區塊的底面積不得超過200平方公尺大概60幾平"},{"start":444.364,"end":465.753,"text":"而且單一堆體的體積要控制在2000立方公尺以內原因是因為限制燃燒的量體確保火災萬一真的發生了消防的水柱要可以立刻噴灑到堆體的中心而且怪手可以在短時間內將火源挖出你看你們這幾天剛才洩露的那些硬品觸目驚心"},{"start":472.711,"end":498.185,"text":"台灣的現象就是整片連綿不斷的垃圾長城一旦燒起來根本沒有辦法斷絕火路沒有 你們毫無規範這個絕對不是不可抗拒的自然現象這個是人為不當的管理因為政府毫無管理的機制 毫無管理"},{"start":499.105,"end":505.709,"text":"第三這個在物理的極限裡面還有一個叫距離原則日本規範一堆和一堆之間要保留兩公尺以上的防火區隔理由就是防止輻射熱導致火勢跳燒並作為緊急時重機具的作業通道和消防車的行進路線而台灣呢你看這個台南火災堆置堆置那麼滿"},{"start":526.36,"end":542.252,"text":"消防車只能在遠遠的噴水也噴不到中心 堆點的中心然後那麼高也噴不到下面怪手也沒辦法進去開闢防火巷這個完全缺乏隔離距離的這個後果所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":544.726,"end":549.149,"text":"這個還是物理上的限制日本還怎麼做主動式的監測和排氣的機制佔自償喔平平都是災害廢棄物的佔自償而已喔他們在氣體排放在早氣的監測和排放他們怎麼規定呢日本規定在堆體的中間要先預埋塞多孔管像瓦斯透氣管"},{"start":570.802,"end":579.159,"text":"讓內部的甲烷和發酵的熱氣能夠導出避免累積達到這個爆炸的下限我們都沒辦法 什麼沒辦法"},{"start":582.605,"end":611.804,"text":"因為沒有規範中央沒有指引地方也不用做溫度的監測日本必須在管理單位必須定期測量堆體深層的溫度他的指引特別提到堆體深層的溫度往往比氣溫滯後一兩個月才達到高峰所以他會到10月才會反映到8月的熱度他會往後遞延"},{"start":612.825,"end":636.061,"text":"所以必須要長期監測 如果測得到一氧化碳的濃度超過10ppmv就視為是內部悶燒的危險訊號我們台灣做什麼 什麼都沒做然後等到冒煙燒起來 聞到臭味 然後再來處理所以台灣這個方法有弄好嗎 完全落後太多"},{"start":637.202,"end":663.711,"text":"那他們日本在於這個預防火災的熱跟氣上面他還有第三個做法他們一旦監測到溫度異常的升高就馬上要出動重機具去翻堆將內部熱料翻出散熱而且他們指引建議一個數個禮拜至少要翻堆一次不可以長期靜置你這個地方要靜置多久你剛剛講明年才會解決對吧"},{"start":666.432,"end":684.238,"text":"這樣子也沒有翻堆對照日本就知道說我們真的是落後太多更不要講我上一次的質詢已經講過的他們這個指引是在未以籌謀防範還沒發生的時候各個地方就要預先選址"},{"start":685.658,"end":710.193,"text":"日本要求市挺村在平時就必須依照這個災害廢棄物的處理計畫選定候選的用地包括要遠離住宅區 地址要穩固具備防止地下水污染設施蛤 蛤 阿爛咧 咱現在只有具備防止污染地下水設施會設備嗎 有不設防水布嗎 有沒有"},{"start":712.13,"end":731.789,"text":"這個沒有然後他講前端要分類進入戰制場以前必須區分隔成金屬電氣電池瓦斯罐和可燃廢氣物這種都要分開因為你電池瓦斯罐廢氣的電氣可能都會引燃周邊的木材或塑膠"},{"start":733.277,"end":758.569,"text":"我們其實都混在一起啦雖然你們說這個石棉一堆廢棄土石方一堆這比較容易看得到但垃圾廢棄樹枝尤其是垃圾垃圾上面有沒有電池有沒有不知道有沒有分類沒有所以把這種潛在的火種電池啦打火機啦跟燃料枯枝啦泡棉啦垃圾打包在一起風險就是這麼高"},{"start":760.259,"end":784.32,"text":"所以我們在這裡我真的是語重心長全台灣一共有幾處的災害廢棄物佔據場正在運作 部長大概災害廢棄物災害廢棄物現在台南有幾座幾座台南有三座吧三座蘇町自己都不知道 寶町真的不知道花蓮有兩座"},{"start":787.752,"end":788.615,"text":"這一年來風災後新啟用的戰製廠有幾處"},{"start":794.161,"end":804.026,"text":"也不知道 你看什麼都不知道那個您說的其實上次前兩次質詢我都有聽在這個裡面我問這個最簡單 你書長要知道戰智場有幾位你也不知道災害廢棄物現在戰智正在運作的有幾個場子你不知道書長你很漏氣 這篇書竟然不及格 我覺得很不該說的 還沒還沒好"},{"start":820.1,"end":837.933,"text":"目前對製的物品品的類別比例怎麼用就是說純風災的這個倒木還是有多少民生垃圾還是有多少的營建土石方的廢棄物比例是怎麼樣每一個站置場比例是怎麼樣比例要怎麼樣才能知道說這個整個預防火源火燒起來啊"},{"start":847.231,"end":866.747,"text":"有多少廠子具備了防止地下水污染的阻隔設施有沒有 全部都沒有喔 完全都沒有喔是不是 全部都沒有有多少廠子有這個溫度監測的機制全部都沒有 完全都沒有 站制的都沒有不是站制的就有嗎"},{"start":871.126,"end":892.703,"text":"那現在日本環境省明確規定規範高度戰制的高度5公尺間隔2公尺你有沒有辦法好這樣講好了有沒有辦法在最短的時間裡面你們可以制定出一個台灣版的災害廢棄物戰制場的防災安全指引有沒有可能一個月"},{"start":900.003,"end":929.543,"text":"包委員 那個因為我們是進行中我們是不是兩個月之內把它訂出來好 災害廢棄物 戰事場 防災安全指引那要把下列的項目列為強制查核項目第一堆置高度的上限5公尺強制防火間隔距離2公尺定期每週深層溫度監測如果地方政府違反指引導致火災中央是否有相對應的懲處或補助扣減的機制也要去研議 可以嗎"},{"start":930.472,"end":958.274,"text":"可以好 那我接下來跟部長講說因為你說我質詢了你們去看看了以後沒有訂出來 也是不好所以災害廢棄物我們的處理絕對不能夠繼續抱著且戰且走的心態應該要去積極的參考日本的災害廢棄物的對策指引而且長期要研議 要去擬定災害廢棄物戰制設置和管理的技術規範"},{"start":959.935,"end":980.402,"text":"不能夠再這樣子永遠萬年的以不變應萬變就讓它稍稍的就剛好先廢棄 不用處理不用再進焚化爐直接入不用再勞煩焚化爐了啦直接入天焚燒啦 我也懷疑說你是不是跳槓要這樣讓它稍稍的都不用再改過是不是這樣比較方便是不是這樣"},{"start":983.888,"end":991.882,"text":"不是啦把廢棄物堆置到這個等排隊進焚化爐還要花一年的時間啊這張來燒一燒就燒一半以上啊都不用進焚化爐啊這樣是不是比較方便"},{"start":996.701,"end":1007.091,"text":"不會啦 不會這樣做我哪有這種感覺的感覺沒有啦沒有啦希望沒有啦我們會來改進啦好 我說的長期災害廢棄物戰車場設置案管理技術規格半年內你出來兩個月內災害廢棄物戰車場的防災安全指引兩個月內訂出來"},{"start":1017.54,"end":1040.977,"text":"因為我知道日本常遇到大型地震災害廢棄物的處理我們會再來評估說實際上去了解他們到底怎麼做的因為有時候日本寫的跟他們不是只有地震型的他們也有很多複合式的他們複合式的而我們剛好恰巧今年未來極端氣候下未來不知道"},{"start":1041.798,"end":1063.395,"text":"就刚好这么严重这么多然后需要这么多的战志场而我们的战志场连一个防水这个不要污染地下水的这个基本设施都没有更不要讲其他的这个灾害还为了战志引起其他更大的环境灾害是这样子是不对的是所以两个月跟六个月啊好可以谢谢来接下来"}]}},{"id":"165796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f813cb5f76f781036ec39b9f793623f7408e1b0d34147d14d262ea90fa57e99411b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"12:14:27 - 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謝謝主席 請我們彭部長部長好彭部長辛苦了那個感冒還要接受那麼多質詢部長 請問一下我們經濟部有說因為現在綠能的發展沒有達標那現在又因為他認為沒有達標的原因他要來修這個環評法"},{"start":38.294,"end":53.887,"text":"那我們來了解一下我們現在根據經濟部統計再生能源發電的結構我們看從105年到今年生殖能及廢棄物它的發電從28.3%降到12%可是當然太陽光電從8.7%增加到41.7%風力發電也從11.4%增加到28.8%"},{"start":66.698,"end":82.851,"text":"那從這個數據來看我們看起來再生能源發電的結構是不平衡的那當然就是針對光電跟風電它是一直在成長可是我們不了解說為什麼生殖能"},{"start":83.811,"end":104.844,"text":"廢棄物發電這個部分它是降低的而且行政院在2017年就有推出多元化垃圾處理計畫當初也有規劃剩餘生殖能發電它那時候有講最少要有三座生殖能的發電廠可是目前"},{"start":106.161,"end":116.248,"text":"我們看到只有台中跟桃園兩座所以針對這部分應該再生能源發電應該針對生殖能電廠這部分是不是應該要來加強"},{"start":117.89,"end":140.985,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個其實這次的這個無溫的這個廚餘的處理就是我們其實一直要鼓勵這個生殖能但是我們所知道像桃園桃園那個案子他們把這個焚化爐弄在一起而且是用一個中心的方式讓大家可以理解其實這個生殖能的中心因為附近的居民很容易把它變成一個零幣設施所以推動起來很好但是就會常常遇到一些阻礙"},{"start":142.754,"end":151.686,"text":"可是照這樣來看其實生食能處理中心你看它又可以處理垃圾然後桃園這個又可以處理"},{"start":152.583,"end":181.062,"text":"熟廚魚熟廚魚他又因為用豔陽處理還可以發電那所以針對這部分應該炒著這部分我們行政院當初就有規劃多元化垃圾處理這一部分那目標應該要去達到應該像這個又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚魚然後又可以發電我們應該要炒這一方面去發展才對報告委員因為目前我所知道的是南投他已經有招標了然後另外一個是"},{"start":181.923,"end":188.302,"text":"台南也願意要蓋 高雄也願意要蓋所以其實目前很多的縣市他願意來蓋這些東西來解決廚藝的問題 所以我們是鼓勵的"},{"start":189.978,"end":215.307,"text":"對啊 所以因為我們看我們今天提這個意思是說經濟部針對這個發電的部分因為他現在要修這個環評法我覺得說重點應該不能只通通放在光電跟風電上面那再生能源發電有很多的方式像我們剛剛提的生殖能源中心就是一個很好處理垃圾處理魚又可以發電那這部分"},{"start":216.027,"end":230.615,"text":"因為環評法的主管單位是環境部所以部長是不是應該有什麼建議其實這次如果光電修的話我是覺得如果這個能夠在討論的過程當中有一些科學的討論甚至在本委員會"},{"start":231.796,"end":257.161,"text":"很好的辯論會更好但是這樣提了之後就會造成說整個再生能源因為我們現在變成全世界再生能源環評最嚴格的一個國家這個到底是不是很好的一個做法會不會影響到後續再生能源的發展這個都要觀察那我們等待這個經濟部能源署他們去算出來因為他們有口頭跟我說他們這個淨零的目標2030 2035恐怕都達不到他們有特別提醒我"},{"start":257.621,"end":281.497,"text":"那我還沒有接到他們的報告所以未來我們會跟他們再討論所以如果因應這個修法之後的衝擊我認為在再生能源以太陽能來說的話一定會非常大的所以我說今天提出這個部分就是說希望說我們再生能源真的不是只有光電只有風電像我們提這個生殖能中心發電廠就是一個非常好的方式"},{"start":281.997,"end":306.915,"text":"而且加上現在剛好有非洲豬瘟的問題那它又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚餘所以這個我覺得環境部也可以朝著這一方面提出一個好的建議我們其實為了因應豬瘟的廚餘未來有可能會不為豬我們要整個去化的能量要把它拉起來所以的確是有很多的縣市有告訴我們說他們有這個需求那也在這個規劃當中了"},{"start":308.997,"end":329.575,"text":"因为这个我们上个礼拜就是为了这个部分去考察我们桃园观音生殖能处理中心那还有一个就是我们虹桥科技因为虹桥科技我才发现它是得过我们经济部国家产业创新奖而且它好像是我们唯一能够把这个厨余"},{"start":330.276,"end":343.605,"text":"完整回收處理它液體的部分處理完以後可以做豬的飼料固體的部分可以做成我們的有機肥料而且等於說廚餘它可以百分之百的"},{"start":344.33,"end":359.089,"text":"做這循環經濟百分之百的處理這部分 部長瞭解嗎瞭解 我們很鼓勵這樣的堆肥廠能夠興建不過其實這個有些縣市想要蓋但是也會遇到附近居民的抗爭所以這個溝通還是一個大問題可是我們發現"},{"start":362.133,"end":377.266,"text":"它占地小 處理量能大你看我們那去我們才了解那其他立委說怎麼有這麼好的技術它才800平方公尺一天可以處理100噸以上的廚餘甚至他說其實可以處理更多"},{"start":378.167,"end":397.04,"text":"所以像这么好的技术我们也发现连很多其他的国外的业者通通都来台湾来这边来考察所以我说奇怪台湾自己有这么好的技术怎么不去好好推广可以完善的把这个厨艺全部完整的处理"},{"start":397.952,"end":422.898,"text":"有 這個部分很多的縣市都願意來興建這樣的措施已經在進行當中了那我們是希望他們一兩年內可以把這個量能夠起來不是只有靠焚化而已好 所以我是建議不要到時候台灣的技術只有國外的推廣做得比我們好結果我們台灣好的技術都沒有好好去把它好好的去發揮尤其剛好我說現在剛好這個非洲豬瘟的問題應該可以好好的來研議可以 這個我們會來做"},{"start":428.186,"end":455.496,"text":"好 那還有現在針對我們IMO的部分那據我們了解我們收取碳費的中央政府機關是環境部那在規定氣候變遷因應法中也有規定那我們國際海事組織IMO現在早就有計畫要收碳費那我們想說IMO這個通過之後"},{"start":456.949,"end":484.686,"text":"收取碳費 我們交通部 航港局預計也有要跟進那以後這個費用是交通部收還是環境部來收報告委員 這個還沒有研議因為IMO我知道川普是公開反對的所以這個因為美國是最大的航運的一個進出口的國家所以這件事情還沒有我們部會還沒有開始在討論當中我們會看未來的進展"},{"start":485.902,"end":490.588,"text":"對啊 因為據我們了解這個碳費收取是環境部"},{"start":492.219,"end":520.588,"text":"沒有 這是歐盟的碳稅歐盟的CBAN 歐盟的碳關稅所以這個制度還沒有像CBAN這麼的完善所以都還在討論當中 還沒有這個結果我們會有一切注意所以針對目前我們當然碳費收取還是環境部所以IMO的部分還沒有做實際的討論還沒有 還沒有到那個階段那如果它這個通過的話到底如果這個通過會有可能是交通部來收這個錢嗎"},{"start":522.139,"end":544.431,"text":"這個還沒有討論例如說好無舉例船到臺灣他也會排放空污在臺灣海峽那我們是不是以後要收空污費這個我們也在討論這個話題當中或是說他進到這個我們的港他用到我們的岸電那我們是要收他一些費用所以這個部分都還在我們會看這個IMO他未來的發展他的這個法規法制化的這個程度而定"},{"start":545.171,"end":560.722,"text":"因為我們看這個船舶它是屬於碳排高的部分所以到時候它是高碳排的部分可能對於我們整個空污也會很大的影響那當然就像部長講的你說因為現在還不確定所以還沒有進入討論還沒有好 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