{"total":{"value":58,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-11-27"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"165956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859d0de0aeabb9f9b9e893e22039d6e8f61432a9691d58560b2b057e84e5f10c5cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:59:34 - 10:05:03","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 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蔡崇義發布的新聞稿講得很清楚各縣市學校午餐自治條例等不同法律的規章缺乏全國一致性的做法以學校的午餐費用為例各縣市補助的一個午餐金額跟學生的餐費皆不相同"},{"start":224.224,"end":237.789,"text":"所以針對食材費用佔餐費的比例皆無強制的規範不但影響了學生用餐的品質亦造成各縣市的學生權益不平等的一個現象"},{"start":238.962,"end":254.233,"text":"所以现在学生对于营养午餐的满意度是低落的往往转以零食饮料来果腹国家投注的经费心力付诸流水"},{"start":255.208,"end":278.137,"text":"教育部應該要檢討改進必要跟大家報告這不是我說的這是監委的新聞稿是用國家投注資金費心力付諸流水這樣子的一個用字遣詞這麼的一個積極的去要求教育部應該要改善"},{"start":279.397,"end":296.978,"text":"我还是要再次强调教育部有努力我有看到但行政院呢行政院没有努力那教育部等于就是零你的努力完全都是没有看到任何进展所以今天为什么我们这么的审慎一定要来想办法学校营养午餐的专法今天有所开始"},{"start":297.864,"end":325.541,"text":"一方面感謝昭緯給行政院一點壓力給教育部一點壓力趕快出院班讓我們能夠真正的來討論要不然要再等一個六年嗎我們等了多久了我們希望大家都在看家長在看孩子在等還有呢這些營養師午餐秘書教職人員我們都希望趕快催生這一部專法以上"}]}},{"id":"165955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158596f46b43cab3e6141d6356a8ccaa37a42432a9691d58560b25483ce43c3d65a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:41:19 - 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謝謝喔 我延續剛剛陳培宇委員的一些問題因為我其實一直以來我重視的問題一直以來我質詢過很多次的問題其實跟剛剛陳培宇委員所提出來其實蠻類似的其實一個很重要的狀況就是在陳少共犯的時候他所引發的偵查割裂的問題這個是我們目前一個還沒有徹底解決的一個難題"},{"start":46.141,"end":64.169,"text":"我想我今天要談的三個議題是前端少婦會制度的漏接還有終端陳少共犯偵查的割裂還有後面矯正廚藥的無效這根本都跟不上目前詐欺犯罪結構的變化那我們先講啦雖然上一次法務部長跟我在那邊"},{"start":65.289,"end":85.006,"text":"在那邊講來講去說他不認為詐欺是民怨第一名但我這邊還是跟各位報告我後來回去再詳細的調查過詐欺確實現在是民怨第一名我這邊先說第一件事情那我剛剛講的那三個問題也是我們現在為什麼詐欺犯越打越多少年車手抓不完的一個真相"},{"start":86.067,"end":104.515,"text":"那這個呢 顯示我們前端的漏接然後終端制度被卡死了然後最後送到矯正機關也是去度假然後虛隱故事 浪費人民的納稅錢所以整個系統都在失靈才會導致現在有源源不絕的小朋友被當免洗筷來做犯罪的事情"},{"start":105.896,"end":128.968,"text":"今天警政署的報告我看到在少年犯罪中有將近三成是和成年人共犯所以我們單看少年詐欺犯罪像車手就有超過一半以上都是成年人在背後控制所以呢但是事實上我跟各位報告現實上絕對是更多有太多的黑數了所以如果我們今天沒有完整的一個偵查"},{"start":130.356,"end":159.517,"text":"你根本抓不到後面是誰在操控這些少年所以詐騙集團通常都是集團性的甚至有一些還躲在國外或是有完整的防火牆如果這個沒有處理好永遠這個詐欺打不完那我們現在呢會不會我們整個少年法院變成是詐欺集團好用的一個工具因為我國有超級完整的少年保護結果會不會被詐欺集團剛好利用來"},{"start":161.427,"end":186.772,"text":"來當作吸收少年的一個工具因為他都跟那些少年犯講沒關係你被抓到了 前科也會突銷那你去了那法官也會把你當作是學生一樣的照顧那你出來了也沒事也不會有前科登記然後所以這些詐欺集團就源源不絕地用小朋友那其實受害的是誰是小朋友耶一批換掉 再一批 再一批 再一批有更多不同的"},{"start":187.765,"end":202.276,"text":"那个生力军进去所以我担心的是这个问题就我们会不会在以为误以为我们在保障未成年人的同时使我们是害惨了更多未成年人这是我们对于我们现在制度一定要去讲一个很重要的点"},{"start":202.876,"end":227.805,"text":"那因為上一次我也問過法務部跟司法院啦因為我們之前對於陳少共犯的這個偵查的方式其實有嚴重的割裂所以一般第一線的偵查人員跟我抱怨最多的就是他抓到一個詐欺集團成年人歸地檢署然後少年歸少年法院就整個偵查割裂那當然啦剛剛廳長也有提到說我們會有很多模式啦我們會盡快問完然後讓檢方來去"},{"start":229.266,"end":247.326,"text":"来把这个少年拿去问证人笔录但是我跟两位报告现场有很多当过检察官的人我们都知道很多时候问笔录就是那一瞬间我们都在跟时间赛跑啊第二个有很多人在被问第一次笔录的时候暗中出供他在第一次笔录的时候最有可能讲出事实"},{"start":247.887,"end":265.985,"text":"但是在第一次比喻问完之后在做第二次比喻的中间他知道你要问什么他知道已经被你知道了什么所以他会开始在圆自己的谎开始在那边跟你兜圈子所以第二次新闻比喻第三次新闻比喻的时候如果你没有更新的证据提出来你比喻常常问不到东西"},{"start":266.502,"end":284.632,"text":"那這個就是我現在擔心的一個點去少年法庭法官在第一次問完之後他後面在檢察官在問的時候他講的都跟前面都不一樣都是圓過之後的謊甚至少年犯他在到少年法院的時候有成年人跟著那成年人會怎麼樣教他要之後要怎麼面對檢察官這個"},{"start":286.751,"end":302.86,"text":"少年法庭這邊沒有考量過還有一個任何犯罪的偵辦我們有時候醞釀了他自然就醞釀了三個月 五個月 八個月都有可能但是我們把資料交給少年法庭的法官的時候他就只是那瞬間看完之後他根本搞不清楚這個案子"},{"start":303.16,"end":332.052,"text":"他就開始問筆錄了他問完之後會不會把整個案子毀掉讓這個少年犯本來會講的到檢察官那邊就不講我跟你講這都是偵查第一線 實務絕對遇到我現在跟各位報告的就是偵查實務第一線會遇到那我就說現在現場好幾位檢察官我都認識大家都知道我在講什麼這部分要麻煩那個廳長這是很嚴重的事情麻煩廳長因為廳長畢竟院方不是走偵查出身的還是要多跟法務部這邊溝通一下好嗎"},{"start":334.985,"end":356.55,"text":"我想現在我必須要跟國人報告幾個點第一個點就是像北檢破惡的扎梯集團裡面有五個少年在裡面就是北檢在偵辦就有一個少年戶籍在花蓮一個在新竹就還要求他們要把少年犯送到戶籍所在地的法院剛剛廳長有提到"},{"start":359.331,"end":387.943,"text":"就是這個部分 廳長現在是不是所有的就是依據行為地來處理就好 統一由行為地那邊的上聯法院來處理報告委員確定而且這個如果是駁回抗告一定二審會支持沒問題 因為我剛好聽你在回答陳培宇委員的部分那這個問題應該解決了就是強制全國要一致共用 不能說法官在說我是獨立審判好不好 這部分再麻煩您這邊要確定第二個就是"},{"start":389.071,"end":403.465,"text":"少年犯抓到24小时要送少年法院那很多时候侦查我们很清楚很多人不懂侦查他听24小时这么长时间你还没时间问吗但事实上我们在第一线侦查过的人就知道24小时远远不够用"},{"start":404.125,"end":431.343,"text":"我們有非常多的證物要釐清我們要搜索我們有很多證人要問所以24小時常常是不夠用的所以變成很多時候重要的證人是少年的時候我們會變成是檢察官看得到碰不到我們很想問這個少年你的上游是誰車手頭是誰但是呢很多時候因為少年要送少年法院然後就線索就從此斷掉這部分是很麻煩的一個很大的問題啦"},{"start":432.961,"end":439.274,"text":"所以聽講黃金24小時這個時間差喔制度上面你們有沒有思考該怎麼辦 該跟檢方怎麼處理"},{"start":442.798,"end":467.599,"text":"是 報告委員剛剛我有說明了三點的處理方式那麼但是如果還是不符合偵查議題迅速一起來處理那實質上各地檢跟少年法庭還有司法警察有三個精進的作為第一個就是說司法警察他有初步的詢問他的詢問的共犯跟上游會"},{"start":468.94,"end":483.568,"text":"更緊密去做第二個就是少年法官已經有共識對這個進來有共患的那警察單位有提供一些意見後檢察官的指揮室有提供意見那法官也會就這個共患詳細的來問這個少年"},{"start":486.209,"end":492.855,"text":"那麼法官跟檢察官詢問的證人筆錄都有證據能力這個是在協商共同方面第三點就是要朝著這個方向來走將來如果大家有共識要跟國外一樣要在陳紹公案有一個所謂偵查主體檢察官全部來處理但只要符合CRC就可以我們覺得會支持這個一起來研議修法好 謝謝廷長但我還要講一個因為我看過大家的報告"},{"start":515.407,"end":538.584,"text":"我覺得這個建議檢察官把問題交給法官問都有證據能力沒有錯但是你們考量的只是證據能力你們沒有考量到偵查細節的部分整個偵查失誤的問題所以說有時候看到這個我會覺得這好像就是大家在象牙塔辦公室裡面想出來的解決方法啦這個在第一線完全不好用而且絕對會耽誤到整個刑事的偵查"},{"start":539.545,"end":562.91,"text":"你要知道檢察官警察調查官他發動一個搜索是好幾個月偵查的這醞釀才出來的我剛有跟各位報告但是你要去叫一個法官要馬上要能夠搞清楚這個案子在搞什麼案子的核心是什麼不可能啦我們那個券有時候疊起來比人還要高法官真的沒有時間能夠理解案子是什麼所以這個不是一個真正解決"},{"start":564.19,"end":592.847,"text":"那個問題的方法就有時候甚至把偵查當惡戲只是給全國人民一個樣板來看我們有做了這些好像有效其實真的效果真的不好而且檢察官還要等法官開完庭在法官開庭之前甚至碰不到這個重要的證人這個少年犯這個會讓檢察官很難處理這個案子所以你們堅持程序正義沒有錯但是堅持程序正義難道要在犧牲打擊犯罪的效率上面"},{"start":594.207,"end":611.874,"text":"這兩個東西一定要平衡而不是說為了成於爭議打擊犯罪這個一點都不在乎因為你這樣子會製造更多的未成年被利用的被害人所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們少事法雖然是保護但是不能溺愛"},{"start":613.462,"end":635.465,"text":"我是擔心邵氏法現在的狀況已經變成溺愛未成年人那我剛剛講的溺愛未成年人看起來好像我國法治很保障未成年人但是最後的結果是什麼詐欺集團或這些犯罪集團更喜歡用這些年輕人因為沒有什麼成本另外我再請問一個主要的還有一個問題"},{"start":638.427,"end":667.665,"text":"我很擔心黑幫在陳紹共犯的時候他一直把小朋友當免洗筷警政署的報告就已經說這個房子著火了結果手上握有滅火器的司法院還在程序優先這個就不好了好不好真的跟偵查上面要有要一個橫頻不能說程序保障無限的擴大然後對於犯罪的偵查到最後就搞不定了這個可能"},{"start":668.789,"end":697.542,"text":"還是司法院你們再思考一下看有什麼改善的方式因為現在小朋友都覺得說反正我去問警察也不能對我怎麼樣那法官只是念一念叫我回去乖乖聽爸媽的話請問一下這個以現在的小朋友這有效果嗎所以我們不能讓本來應該成為社會棟樑的這些小朋友以後長大變成社會的問題這部分我想麻煩你們要注意我們真的很恐懼這些小孩子在這種縱容的制度之下價值觀會崩壞"},{"start":698.382,"end":712.739,"text":"或者是說我們也恐懼說未來台灣會不會充斥的這種很多沒有法治觀念的人這個再麻煩你們能了解那個警政署我想請問一下這個少年割頭案其實這個少年在"},{"start":714.481,"end":740.289,"text":"加害行為的前一年111年的時候就已經有被查獲身上有帶有刀子啦但是好像也沒有什麼處理嘛那警政署是認為說這個他不是經常性的攜帶刀切他只被查獲一次所以呢他沒有啟動保護機制那我想請問一下你們這麼拘泥於這種法律文字是不是就錯失了司法及早介入輔導的機會小朋友帶刀上學就有問題啊"},{"start":742.008,"end":759.545,"text":"阿你們有沒有希望說修正一些相關的標準有沒有跟委員報告就是因為他是在學在學所以變成這個輔導由學校來那個如果他不是如果是輟學就是當然我們的哨會會來做開案接辦那有關是現在"},{"start":761.078,"end":779.915,"text":"少數法的規定就是處罰 偏差 復選這些其實都是疊加的啦那我們也是請照會一直從要求 從後來做結案因為這樣我這樣聽來聽去還是比較官方式的說法啦那我還是跟各位報告一下"},{"start":781.65,"end":797.609,"text":"这个小朋友带刀上学这其实是一件蛮严重的事情不能说我们拘泥于文字说非经常性所以我们就不启动一些司法的厨艺因为这会让其他的未成年人在学校上学的那些小朋友其实都是陷于危险"},{"start":798.65,"end":812.812,"text":"這部分我想麻煩你們稍微看看文字的部分有沒有辦法再加以修正到能夠讓保障能夠更周全最後我是想請法務部還有矯正署"},{"start":818.493,"end":827.125,"text":"好 那個防護部的矯正署 我要提一個數據監獄內 詐欺洗錢受刑人佔全體受刑人的20%那少年矯正學校"},{"start":829.673,"end":850.623,"text":"跟詐欺有關的這些學生佔26%也就是說成人監獄的五分之一少年矯正機關的四分之一都跟詐欺犯有關所以你們的但是你們的處遇策略只有最老掉牙的法治教育上課輔導你們就只有這個但是上課有效嗎很多上課無效因為"},{"start":851.784,"end":876.917,"text":"如果上课有效他在外面听老师讲就会很有效果了所以不能只拘泥在请他们坐在教室里面听还有就是说有时候我们说医疗上面对于没有病逝感的病人要怎么医治这是很多医生烦恼的事情那这些少年犯他们去ATM领钱他面对的一个机器把钱领出来他没有办法去感受到那些被害人"},{"start":877.95,"end":896.156,"text":"那个痛心疾首甚至自杀的那种痛苦他们感受不到嘛所以你今天叫他那边上课跟他一直讲然后他就在底下玩他的那我有去监所去视察那我们去的时候那矫正所去视察那老师在上面上课小朋友在后面做他自己的事情"},{"start":896.656,"end":911.226,"text":"所以效果不大 這個變成我們在騙納稅人而已我們在騙一般的民眾說我們有在做 事實上一點效果都沒有所以對小朋友來說 矯正機關是上上課 去度假中心去度個假 白吃白喝的 然後"},{"start":912.226,"end":929.345,"text":"度個假就出來又度金了他們的想法是這樣這樣是不會悔悟的他們也不懂得自己對社會傷害多大所以我希望法務部能夠在兩個月內提出詐欺犯圖譽的精進報告那內容必須包括第一個引入被害人NGO的保護團體進行衝擊式的輔導"},{"start":932.228,"end":958.683,"text":"因為我們在跟金管會接觸的時候金管會也是跟我們建議現在很多詐欺犯其實很多銀行他們認為說自己要盡到企業的社會責任他們願意提供一些服務提供一些對於這些詐欺未成年被告的幫助那你們是不是可以跟他們結合去運用社會的資源去把這些被害人這種保護的NGO團體我們能夠把他引入去協助"},{"start":959.943,"end":986.088,"text":"然後甚至呢我們讓被害人能夠對這些小朋友能夠現身處地的告訴他家庭因為這個詐欺案而怎麼樣分崩離析甚至有人去自殺我自己就驗過因為受詐欺而自殺的的死者啊我自己都驗過了那我也問過好幾個以前同事大家都都有驗類似的經驗有驗過那種因為受詐欺而去自殺的所以這不是一個社會少數的問題那還有"},{"start":988.894,"end":1005.467,"text":"请落实劳动工作矫正他们的金钱观要让他们知道一分耕耘一分收获而不是用骗的骗到的就是自己的那笑评不笑娼然后有钱就好不能让他们这样还有就是少年出所之后更生还有职业转弦"},{"start":1006.368,"end":1025.838,"text":"也要請那個司法院的少年保護官也要稍微落實一下啦因為我要強調法務部一定要知道矯正機關是司法最後一道防線你前面沒有處理好或是前面辦了然後丟給矯正機關就矯正機關也沒有處理好就大家就一團亂就我們現在其實有一點失控了啦這個不是說交交報告寫一寫就好"},{"start":1026.198,"end":1051.566,"text":"你要真的落實能夠解決他們問題的而且也請思考院不要在哪保護未成年人當做一切的藉口然後要整個讓犯罪偵查都無效最後10秒鐘今天有一份新聞就是有受刑人在抱怨說監所裡面他帶小朋友進去"},{"start":1052.586,"end":1080.301,"text":"受刑的时候结果小朋友的营养还不足他吃的东西根本小朋友吃这些东西营养会不够他已经出来抱怨了还有小朋友在哭的时候他只能把小朋友抱到走廊或抱到公用厕所里面去安抚还有监所里面过于闷热小朋友那些有的年纪很小一岁两岁受不了在那边哭闹这个不对耶今天父母犯错小孩子不能让他进去一起"},{"start":1081.328,"end":1104.198,"text":"一起這樣子啦你們是不是要改善有帶小朋友進去受刑的這些受刑人你是要改善一下他們的環境因為不是為了這個受刑人而是為了小孩好不好這小孩是無辜的就小孩子在裡面吃的東西營養也不足要接受醫療接受早療跟醫療協助也沒有機會然後小朋友"},{"start":1104.918,"end":1132.65,"text":"他說連需要活動一個禮拜只能安排三次每次十分鐘的戶外活動那你這小朋友的健康會受影響啊拜託去釐清這些事情是不是真的這個事情跟剛剛那些我都非常的重視我想今天主席一定非常重視帶未成年人進去受刑的結果小朋友一個禮拜只能三次每次十分鐘戶外活動你要這個運動量大的小朋友怎麼辦稍微說明一下因為這個報導有點"},{"start":1134.131,"end":1148.927,"text":"沒問題 我今天不用因為沒有時間了我只是說請你們釐清告訴我一下這個報導真實性以及如果他說的是真的改善的方式為何好不好好 這就是國家未來的棟樑啦好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳宗憲委員也謝謝兩位"}]}},{"id":"165954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859818b77f0402b2be3893e22039d6e8f61432a9691d58560b2a0f504e0321c6ed85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:57:14 - 09:59:28","影片長度":"00:02:14","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:57:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:59:28+08:00","duration":134,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.379718750000002,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.99971875,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":131.67284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.429,"end":28.371,"text":"OK那謝謝趙偉那其實剛才講了那麼久啊那不要說院版的提出的情況那其實這個案子來講的話其實從第九屆就討論到現在那當然我相信教育部的話本來就已經有教育部所朝理的法案也經過了許多的討論"},{"start":29.512,"end":49.299,"text":"其實今天在座的許多委員有提到才化法的部分其實這個並不是理由因為相信在座每一位委員都是關心我們這次食品養法就是我們學校公餐法的這一個委員所以在座每一位都是關心的但是才化法如果覺得有問題的話其實就實際上來討論"},{"start":51.94,"end":75.371,"text":"如果說今天來講4千億都可以直接在賴清德總統的直接宣示下就直接就可以來提供或是甚至1.25兆還都可以直接昨天講了他今天就要來送院那為什麼要犧牲這個我們學生的一個食品營養法或是公餐的相關的權益那裡面許多原則的部分其實大家都說每個都很重要"},{"start":75.931,"end":105.731,"text":"不管是透明還不管是營養師不管是程序上或者是包括在許多種種的就是採購流程或者是平台或者是相關的一個資訊揭露的部分那每位委員都覺得這個很重要教育部也覺得很重要所以今天的話就盡快來進行來討論應該是對全國的這個小朋友或是學生來講是最負責任的做法所以說這個市民安法我們今天來講這個學校公餐的部分他不應該是打假球啊"},{"start":105.871,"end":130.883,"text":"那所以在座的每一個委員其實我覺得才化法它不是原因了啦那其實包括1.25兆的話都可以直接來進行的話我覺得犧牲不應該是學生食品營養的一個權益啊所以我在想這個部分應該盡快的來進行討論應該才是最負責任的做法那同樣的也肯定在座的每一位委員一定都是關心學生還關心食品營養權益的委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859db8155ccc4498a5f893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422dee1bef8ca561aee985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:52:03 - 09:57:09","影片長度":"00:05:06","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:52:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:57:09+08:00","duration":306,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.35846875,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":63.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.12659375000001,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.29034375,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.07034375,"end":272.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.37659375000004,"end":278.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.00846875,"end":303.32534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.387,"end":26.874,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席我剛剛聽完前面許多的委員的共識其實我想大家都有高度共識啦都是希望我們應該要來討論所以我不太曉得葉元之委員是前面沒有來所以沒有聽到還是又扭曲了齁"},{"start":27.754,"end":56.633,"text":"我想剛剛都非常清楚的表達說大家都認為一兩五三法非常的重要從之前就已經有就已經有在討論了所以呢我想大家包含剛剛不管是國民黨的委員或也好或是民進黨的委員也好都認為說我們是在原則性上面來討論嘛而且呢我想待會可能教育部也可以說明一下因為據我所知我們今年都還是有跟地方政府在討論因為桃園市政府就有跟我講這件事情所以我想這個部分該闢謠的地方我們還是要說清楚啦"},{"start":57.393,"end":60.62,"text":"那再來接下來呢請你不要干擾我的發言齁主席請控制一下"},{"start":64.114,"end":88.659,"text":"再來就是說我想今天所有的委員的發言都認為我們的學校營養午餐小孩吃不吃得飽有沒有健康有沒有安全有沒有食安的問題其實都是非常重要的特別來說我也認為說對許多的弱勢家庭孩子來說午餐是孩子一天當中最完整最穩定的一餐"},{"start":89.219,"end":115.209,"text":"所以今天的修法我想大家都是謹慎的來看待特別是我也想提出一個問題就是說在我們現行的體制之下我們許多吃的人是學生他們最清楚菜色 份量 食材好不好可是許多的委員會他們是無法加入所以他們的聲音是無法被聽見的所以在我的版本裡面就把學生代表來把它納入了再來第二個問題也是"},{"start":117.185,"end":144.276,"text":"我們現在也有一些版本是有提到說高中生要把它納入但是我覺得大家也可以來思考一下現在許多的高中生其實有非常高度的自主性其實他們很希望自己決定自己來吃什麼如果我們把它放進去的時候會不會造成其實有非常多都最後變成的是廚餘那現在我們這個廚餘的處理的問題也會是一個很大的問題所以到底要不要把高中納入我覺得委員們可能還是要回"},{"start":145.356,"end":172.404,"text":"思考一下我們這個高中生的一個主體性跟一個自主性那再來第三個部分就是營養師的門檻也是大家一直在關注的我們到底這個比例要怎麼調我想也是這次說法非常關鍵的一個部分不過我也有看見就是在我們過去呢在教育部的努力之下呢其實我們已經有提供許多在地的食材不管是豬肉牛肉等等的我們都有落實學生衛生法的一個規定"},{"start":173.084,"end":200.138,"text":"那也有要求說供應膳食跟這個食材呢應該要優先採用中央農業主管機關所認定的在地優良農產產品然後如果沒有使用國產的部分呢肉類有相關的罰則那我也希望在這一點上面我們要做更延伸的一個飲食教育就呼應前面吳麗華委員講的我們應該讓孩子更了解每個食物到底從哪裡來的然後我們會更"},{"start":200.598,"end":222.539,"text":"藉由這個食物呢也去了解不管是營養的部分還有鄉土文化國家文化的部分那再來呢還有一個部分我想也是今天大家都非常非常的明確討論的就是為什麼行政院到現在還沒有提出一個完整明確的營養午餐本本其實就是像剛剛大家都一直不停的在強調就是才化法還"},{"start":223.1,"end":247.156,"text":"沒有完成事權的劃分中央跟地方到底是誰負責什麼經費誰出補助的比例要怎麼算那一旦沒有講清楚呢那我想營養午餐的一個制度就沒有辦法長期的被制度化那我覺得也會造成之後是一個不負責任的立法因為目前的模式呢是中央定標準地方跑流程學校負責執行"},{"start":248.217,"end":277.338,"text":"但是實際上常常大家都是卡來卡去的中央訂了要求地方說沒有錢地方想提升品質學校說沒有行政人力廠商出問題家長不知道找誰負責事權不一責任不清資源不到位就是現在最大的一個結構性的問題所以我也非常贊同我們需要法治化但是呢事權如果沒有先理清楚後面的經費人力採購集合會全部卡住"},{"start":279.079,"end":302.741,"text":"所以我想現在最重要的就是要把這些責任跟資源分配清楚我們才能夠做出一份真正落地孩子也能夠吃的一個安心的一個長期的制度所以我想還是呼應一下我希望我們今天就是回到一個原則性的立法那等到財化法比較明確之後呢我們再來把相關的一些預算分配把它落入在執法上面謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859d960229fa2cd0250bd93e540dfe0040e35840082273422de4a87e28e18c620705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:46:42 - 09:55:28","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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市場端我們針對相關的這些高風險的這些商店我們也會去採用聯合稽查特別是衛福部針對食品的部分也會去做稽查特別是一些比如說中國 越南或其他一些高風險區的商店他們有可能販售的一些豬肉產品的時候就會去做家常稽查"},{"start":122.481,"end":145.173,"text":"那當然另外豬場這次很大的原因是在於除於並沒有真正落實到真主的機制這個也會強力去要求地方政府來做到嗎對 我想我們後續會再跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通因為裁罰只是一個手段而已它應該是防範於未來就是說本身如果說還沒有"},{"start":146.671,"end":168.653,"text":"發生的第一時間就要抓到採訪是最後不得已手段但是一旦發生了就來不及所以是一定是要落實去做相關的工作比如說你的廚餘的有在用廚餘那些的烹煮是不是確實有落實到一個小時90度這個一定要落實去做嘛所以這個會農業部跟地方政府會持續的再去要求更多的這些作為嗎"},{"start":169.053,"end":191.406,"text":"我們中央應變中心每個禮拜都還在開會我們一直要求這個一定要要求落實下去這只要有幾個縣市沒有落實到或有幾個農場這個豬場沒有落實到的話就有可能會造成是個破口好不好這個請農業部跟地方政府要不斷的要求去做這件事情這個很嚴重的這一次主要的也就落在這個地方那當然"},{"start":191.946,"end":206.733,"text":"一旦如果發生了後面的控管這塊顯然當然當時台中市政府也有一些問題的這個部分也希望能夠納入到標準作業程序把這個釘釘清楚不要再有任何的機制上可能出現漏洞會 因為這一次"},{"start":207.373,"end":222.121,"text":"算是不幸中的大幸就是並沒有整個擴散出去那如果一旦擴散出去的話那恐怕台灣就很難再恢復到非議區而且對我們的豬肉的這個就造成相當重大影響所以我希望這件事情農業部一定要落實這幾個原則都要處理"},{"start":223.662,"end":239.681,"text":"會 我們會盡對他的努力那我問一下那如果全部都順利的維持在這樣的控制狀況的話三個月的時間我們可以提送去希望恢復到非疫區的部分嗎跟世界動物衛生組織來恢復成非疫區這預定大概什麼時間點"},{"start":240.542,"end":263.392,"text":"我想我們要向WOH去提出非預區的部分有幾個要件第一個就是說我們要證明說可能的來源我們都有有效的控管的部分這個部分可能牽涉到後面我們廚餘養豬的一些政策那如果都順利的話我們也希望說只要完備那個資料跟程序的話我們就會向WOH那最快什麼時候可以來提送"},{"start":265.089,"end":293.585,"text":"三個月是一個最快的如果三個月來看的話是2月21號是最快的時間最基本的時間但是要看我們的整個的來源的部分是不是有效的能夠掌握來說服WHO你說的是廚餘這個來源的部分嗎他所有的病毒的風險他都要我們那這樣子農業部有什麼樣的作為要來來做的我想大方向我們對廚餘養豬本身除了那個我之前說的山藥件就是那個珍珠要落實那個雞盒要落實還有一個"},{"start":294.625,"end":312.365,"text":"法令的完備另外地方政府同意以外那整個廚藝的料源的大方向我們是朝著禁用家戶廚餘然後同時也希望給廚藝養豬業者有一段緩衝期再來做一個落日那像剛剛部長講這些原則要多久時間可以完成"},{"start":314.241,"end":332.182,"text":"整個現在在這個裝色監視器的部分環境部正在處理那他們是大概是應該是在年底之前12月7號應該會有第一波的裝色完成的部分那後續可能會在年底之前要全部裝色完畢那其他的措施呢"},{"start":332.83,"end":345.641,"text":"那其他的措施現在我們的部分大概有一些轉型的措施我們都準備好了那相關的就是最主要是除以後端的這些再利用的處理量能是不是能夠那這個有辦法在三個月內完成嗎"},{"start":347.22,"end":366.08,"text":"應該可以啦所以我們的目標一樣是2月17號來2月21號來提出申請嘛是嗎對我們的文件的準備大概用三個月啦然後還要再持續的溝通因為送出去以後他不一定馬上合可能還有一些補充的啊但是我們送出的時間我們以2月21號來送出申請為非議區嘛2月21來申請嘛是嗎"},{"start":368.991,"end":387.262,"text":"大致上是這樣子好我們希望順利的到這個目標來完成那希望送出之後儘速的溝通儘速讓台灣恢復為肺疫區這對我們的豬肉對我們的這個產業都相當的重要啦好再要請教一下中國也傳出了有新的病毒齁這個包括他們的病史豬也流入市場"},{"start":387.942,"end":410.295,"text":"不只啦包括像河北啦它有個蓋塔病毒非洲豬瘟甚至於包括廣州福建江西河南四川等都有感染這個農業部有在注意這件事情嗎我們有注意所以說我們的風險越來越大甚至於前幾天韓國又爆發了非洲豬瘟所以我們鄰近的國家其實不斷的在就是"},{"start":411.255,"end":431.859,"text":"清除了以後再發生 清除了以後再發生那台灣一定不要類似這樣的行為所以我們現在持續是用高強度的防疫的一個管制所以我希望剛剛講到那些防制的要更加的強度啦現在連中國又傳出新的病毒還有另外一個新的病毒所以我們對豬肉的管制必須更加的強制才能確保台灣豬的安全是"},{"start":432.259,"end":454.65,"text":"好不好 這個請部長要落實那當然要加強宣導來重罰 其實剛剛提到的甚至於其實包括中港澳 韓國 越南 泰國都有最近時間都有違規的包裹這些事件甚至於快遞也都有那這個部分我還是希望能夠加強去查緝現在抽減是20%是不是提高20%提高20% 會再加高嗎"},{"start":456.751,"end":477.966,"text":"對 我們現在手檢區是100%經過X光啦 都是經過X光然後這個人工開箱的部分就提高了20%然後特別針對綠線的 綠線本來是不用查的我希望這一塊農業部再思考啦因為畢竟包裹進來是最沒有那個 因為不像隨行帶進來包裹的部分的話 隨時整個寄送的話 他不斷去測試你 不斷測試你那你有時候你罰也不見得罰得到"},{"start":480.828,"end":498.028,"text":"所以我是希望這件事情要再考慮加高特別是在中國的這個新的病毒又產生的時候這個要思考一下再包裹在郵件特別是有豬肉產品的要再加高它的抽檢的一個頻率我跟委員報告郵遞快遞也是百分之百特別是報關的部分喔快遞報關的部分它都要"},{"start":498.648,"end":523.855,"text":"加注他是從哪個國家來的這個部分我想我們會有風險這一塊要請務必要防堵因為我們認為很有可能這一次的台中的豬肉這個豬肉有可能也許就是從包國郵件進來的好不好 這個地方我希望農會部加嚴一個禮拜內給我你們的加重加嚴一些方案給我好不好我們把所有的那個邊境防堵的這些加重加嚴的方案給我參考好不好 把一分八萬給我參考好 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委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:47:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:51:56+08:00","duration":277,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.72909375,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.236593750000004,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.244093750000005,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.939718750000004,"end":56.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.422843750000006,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.75221875000001,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.64159375,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.44971875000002,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.02971875,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.43659375000001,"end":272.41034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.921,"end":43.001,"text":"今天我們討論那個營養午餐公餐法那看得出來這是藍綠白各個黨團各個委員都很期待這個法所以有非常多的委員都有提供版本所以這個事情該不該做呢當然該做如果大家覺得不該做的話呢就不會這麼踴躍提版本那我現在不知道說剛聽了很多委員的發言聽不太出來他們是希望趕快讓這個法通過還是不希望讓這個法通過"},{"start":44.065,"end":56.043,"text":"因為講得很抽象很模糊感覺好像設了種種的障礙跟困難說這個法好像不適合在現在通過那到底大家是希望它通過如果希望的話"},{"start":57.503,"end":81.877,"text":"我是覺得盡快啦幾件事情嘛 第一個大家希望小朋友吃得更健康 希望啊大家希望小朋友有一些食農教育 西式教育 希望啊大家希望在校園裡面的人力可以做一個調整 希望啊那既然是這樣的話那何不先把其他問題先擺一邊大家先把該做的事情討論一下那我的"},{"start":82.881,"end":110.02,"text":"我這邊是針對這個法的具體內容有幾個建議第一個針對小朋友營養的部分因為我們常常看到有一些學校因為沒有營養師的把關或許會讓小朋友吃的沒有那麼的營養可是我們現在對於專業營養師的設置現行的辦法是40班以上才要設一個營養師但實際上很多學校是沒有達到40班"},{"start":111.261,"end":126.931,"text":"換句話說他就沒有營養師那我覺得這個部分是需要去做調整的那第二學校的營養午餐總共分成三類一種叫做自立廚房就是公辦公營的這符合我剛剛講的40班以上但是有"},{"start":127.731,"end":150.771,"text":"公辦的廚房委託給民營辦理的這個部分就沒有強制要設營養師是得設營養師得的意思就是可設可不設就由委外的單位自行來設置營養師但這個問題就在於說委外單位自己的營養師那當然自己人好講話就不會比較站在學校的角度站在學生角度去談這個事情所以"},{"start":151.491,"end":166.381,"text":"無論你這個是廚房委外辦理當然學校自己也應該有自己的營養師那第三學校營養午餐很多是委託團散來辦理那團散業者同樣他會用自己的營養師學校也沒有營養師所以站在讓學生吃的"},{"start":167.262,"end":195.903,"text":"更營養的這個角度應該在營養午餐法裡面把營養師的設置規定清楚而且定定明白讓各校可以遵循讓小朋友可以吃得更營養更健康這是第一件事情第二個有關於午餐祕書因為現在很多學校也會設午餐祕書來處理營養午餐的問題但多半是由老師來兼任那現行的做法確實有讓老師可以有一些檢課的做法但問題是"},{"start":197.116,"end":211.508,"text":"伍密他實際有點像是學校的行政職但他並沒有辦法像其他的組長有行政津貼也沒有國旅卡等等就是他做了行政工作但純粹只有剪刻而已那有沒有辦法讓伍密可以"},{"start":212.609,"end":230.259,"text":"符合像行政人員的這些待遇然後讓更多人願意來做舞弊我覺得也可以把它規範在法律裡面所以總而言之我覺得如果大家認為這件事情應該做的話剛剛有比較資深的像柯政委員講說第九屆就開始討論了"},{"start":232.766,"end":249.453,"text":"如果今天不開始的話我相信會一直拖下去然後我們也希望說教育部可以快一點因為就我了解教育部上一次找地方政府討論營養午餐法是去年五月的事到現在已經一年半了等於這一年半沒有任何的作為"},{"start":250.513,"end":271.908,"text":"沒有任何作為的情況之下又跟大家講說這個要跟地方協調這個要幹嘛幹嘛你都沒有做那你只是 這個只是藉口啊所以政府想要做一件事情啊他要做的話有一百個理由啦不做的話有一千個藉口啦所以如果大家認為營養午餐要讓大家吃的營養的話現在就正是時候啦 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859a9a222867877b7af893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de08fafea6b25ef31e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:43:26 - 09:47:14","影片長度":"00:03:48","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:43:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:47:14+08:00","duration":228,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.927843750000001,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.81409375,"end":228.68721875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.303,"end":29.378,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁各位先進大家早今天我們討論的不是一部午餐的法而已而是一個希望能夠引領台灣未來十年二十年三十年飲食教育方向的全國性上位法"},{"start":29.958,"end":53.513,"text":"因此我期待未來的學校共餐及飲食教育法又或者說營養午餐法它不只是管理營養午餐的共餐方式更要肩負起這個時代賦予的使命在地食材 地產地銷 氣候變遷 循環經濟這些國際上最先進的理念都應該要納入到這部法的視野"},{"start":54.473,"end":77.065,"text":"讓它成為真正的全國性指導法規舉例來說 我們孩子吃的營養午餐常常都是吃到遠道而來 碳足跡更高與生活環境毫無連結的食物所以這不只是共餐的問題而是健康 文化 產業 永續全部被切割開的一個結果"},{"start":78.486,"end":102.523,"text":"當今天我們訂了營養午餐的專法我們要用什麼方式來回應營養教育或者還是跟以前一樣吃著遠道而來的食物忘記自己的土地原本長的是什麼我來自園鄉對我而言我最在乎的就是我們每一個部落都擁有最豐富的食材但是卻最難以進入學校"},{"start":103.143,"end":132.352,"text":"像小米 樹豆 芋頭各式的在地作物都在部落的土地上長得離孩子們最近這個是我一直強調的民族味覺所以我在今年也用計畫的形式推動全國國中小營養午餐吃小米我走訪各地的學校看到我們的孩子說小米好好吃甚至很多的孩子說是第一次吃到我就知道"},{"start":133.412,"end":155.782,"text":"才是我們想要的營養午餐因此在審查這個法案的時候一定要把更大的現實一起拉進來這部法涉及到的不是單一部會它會影響到未來飲食教育的走向營養師的人力配置除工與伍蜜的工作負擔中央與地方的經營費分配未來台灣的國際貿易跟農產品標準"},{"start":158.883,"end":184.671,"text":"那這些制度面 人力面 財政面 國際面缺一不可那一部全國性的上位法立法的目的越清楚未來跨部會的協作才有可能那我希望看到的是一部真正能夠解決問題能夠兼顧在地農業能夠讓原鄉食材進入校園能夠讓學校端不再疲於奔命能夠跟國際規範銜接的完整版本"},{"start":185.231,"end":207.123,"text":"而不是倉促急救章後續又要不斷修改的版本因此呢在此我要表達本席的立場這步伐我高度期待那很希望我們在行政院收攏跨部會意見之後由院版來正式提出那最後我要說營養午餐不只是營養午餐它關乎孩子的健康"},{"start":207.623,"end":222.087,"text":"在地文化的延續也是台灣下一代的飲食教育期待一步真正有高度有未來的營養午餐專法讓我國的學童可以把根扎生把夢做大謝謝大家請葉元芝委員發言"}]}},{"id":"165949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859bc8a172841d0ea1bbd93e540dfe0040e35840082273422dee704fec7cb43ff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:27:21 - 09:46:37","影片長度":"00:19:16","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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":"包括政府政權的更迭他們不放棄的願為原住民在山區居住的土地正義的捍衛透過立法透過成為行政機關今天漢民族在山區居住的事實跟山原住民是一樣的我再更講第二點"},{"start":81.96,"end":102.554,"text":"林務農業部跟國有財產組財政部的國有財產組兩個不同的部門反而是國有財產組重視到了山區居住世代的這個居住的土地正義而林務局你沒有你只看到樹沒有看到裡面有住人"},{"start":103.334,"end":112.72,"text":"所以本席所提案的剛才我很認真的聽幾個非本黨的不分藍綠的委員針對這個森林法第八條之一不分藍綠喔所提出來修法你到底有沒有聽進去啊我覺得你沒有包括你整個的報告我也很認真聽到最後我們在這個我們在這個森林的生態保育這當然本席支持啊"},{"start":131.813,"end":159.65,"text":"你都沒有講到人那你修什麼啊你修什麼 你還來跟我們溝通什麼藍綠的立委這邊陳冠廷委員這個提案 馬文君委員提案游皓委員提案 本席提案我還沒講到連署的人喔我們全部都給打臉了嘛所以你的法案你沒有聽到名義耶好 開始本席 林班弟還是家這本席直接點出重點了"},{"start":161.349,"end":180.47,"text":"來下一頁法律不能只屬森林有幾公頃也要交代山林有幾戶人家台灣山區的發展歷史悠久政權多次更迭地籍資料的缺漏土地登記制度長期不完善而使得我許多山區居住的居住"},{"start":181.25,"end":205.477,"text":"權益被侵蝕生活環境受到威脅土地使用權及其合法的權益面臨嚴峻的挑戰這些都明白的寫在本席跟其他提案委員你們反對的這個森林法增訂第8條之一說明當中爬梭歷史民國58年的時候政府為了穩定山區居民的生計以第一版的杭照圖認定既有佔"},{"start":207.377,"end":220.082,"text":"這個暫懇跟居住適時 排除地質的敏感地區 容許簽訂正式的租約或移交國有財産主 以建築用地跟榮木用地來簽約好 照了民國66年78年90前就辦了三次的補辦作業最後一次補辦 97年 看好這個數據民國97年的申報案件當中有6200多件最後只有684件通過"},{"start":233.908,"end":252.661,"text":"只有一成多的通過表示給你申辦當中有九成現在被認定為違法所以一直就一直這二三十年來一直就被讓你認定為違法所以包括你們的詞彙用的多可怕叫做濫墾地你認為他們叫做濫墾戶多可憐啊"},{"start":258.827,"end":283.936,"text":"國有財產署可以你為什麼不可以好代表絕大數實際居住的使用的戶數始終被排除在制度之外在同一塊土地在林務機關的電腦裡面被標示為林班地在居民的記憶當中叫做家這個矛盾如果不透過法律的補正山區居民會永遠被標記為違規占用戶今天本席宣示"},{"start":285.576,"end":298.662,"text":"森林法的第8條之一是在處理國家對山區居民長期牽扯的歷史帳不是替新違章開後門搞清楚"},{"start":300.089,"end":315.863,"text":"什麼叫做你看啊你們寫什麼你們的報告寫什麼這個呢對於這個呢還是你們寫說呢之前依法排除佔用者顯示橫貧在實務執行上衍生爭議呀"},{"start":318.085,"end":334.87,"text":"哇你們這個完全都沒有看到人耶我不知道你的存在是為了樹木還是為了人而存在好再來制度門一直在收窄居民始終被排除在外現行國有林地總面積161萬公頃山區內許多建物跟農田具有長期使用與歷史背景"},{"start":339.331,"end":357.527,"text":"卻因法律設計不完備被一律視為違規佔用生活受到影響所以把人民從佔用戶改名為陳租戶不是放水而是把國家欠下的帳補給回來所以本席我也沒多厲害我就比照國有財產法"},{"start":358.968,"end":377.021,"text":"一字不漏的超過來在森林法當中國有或公有土林地於民國8207月20日以前以實際居住使用並願繳清歷代歷年的使用補償金者則管理機關也就是你林務林務署林保署就可以給予出租"},{"start":377.481,"end":400.863,"text":"好那比照國有財產署的國有財產法的精神你必須提供這些喔戶籍涉及資料房屋稅水電證明建物權利的證明再加上我會用修正單位加起來這三個士林證明以及金法院判決確認佔用的事實金法院判決他是佔用表示他真的居住啊"},{"start":401.664,"end":423.551,"text":"然後或者是林保署列管的占用戶以及政府於820721日前設置的圖資等等剛才我的提案就是把國有財產署的這些的文件寫到森林法這邊來而已所以一國兩制嘛你們就是連這樣的事實連照抄國有財產署的都懶得抄"},{"start":424.591,"end":452.411,"text":"好也就是說對像是國有跟公有林地的歷史常住戶的10點明確鎖定在82721以前必須提出可檢視的客觀證據所以本席的提案包括其他委員的提案它是一套嚴格可集合財政補償基礎的歷史補正機制不是容等的特色跟全面合法化所以本席要求在本法通過之後"},{"start":453.832,"end":476.261,"text":"當然我還是尊重主席啦如果主席我也希望主席的要懇請主席您的才智要把我們這幾個立委提案的森林法增修第八條之一納入院版你院版要有態度啊你沒有的話那你幹嘛送出來什麼大家都一定不滿意嘛你也沒有解決民怨那你送出來幹嘛"},{"start":477.481,"end":495.033,"text":"好所以呢這個通過之後我也要求其實現在你們就要做了三個月內全國國有及公有土地府82721前已有實際居住使用的紀錄的疑似戶數的盤點而這個全國的盤點當中也請你依限識別使用樣態書面送交"},{"start":497.915,"end":517.011,"text":"本委員會並公開那包括你們也事先這個規劃好在這個本法通過之後的六個月內參考國有財產法的銜接方式提出森林法第八條之一的整體實施的計畫包括審查流程證明文件要讓人家提出申請"},{"start":518.052,"end":532.733,"text":"好再來我講這幾個個案這不是個案是一整個市在的山區居民耶西投莊家案嘉義山區暴憤起伏西投莊家案市區這個西投莊家案的莊家是什麼"},{"start":533.294,"end":556.371,"text":"他世世代代與你林務局照齡契約 最後還是走向拆屋還地南投西投的莊家從清代開始就在當地耕作日治時代與戰後初期都被視為地方的遠啃人物民國56年的時候更與台大石研林簽署了40年的照齡契約結果還是被你們片面的解約那這個"},{"start":558.152,"end":578.765,"text":"嘉義山區居民跪地求土地證與生存權這個我在這邊要表達對陳明文陳前立委的致敬他2023年的時候媒體報導嘉義縣山區居民應有國有林搬地林業用地國土保安用地等邊境長年面臨住了幾十年的家被說是違法"},{"start":579.525,"end":592.38,"text":"一翻修就處罰 不斷被移送法辦要求拆屋還地的處境包括奮起伏 你要翻修啊 要搬 要還柱啊就沒理由啦 林班地限制下的日常困境是什麼日常困境是什麼"},{"start":595.303,"end":616.636,"text":"為什麼2019年公司都正式的報導嘉義縣阿里山的奮起府地區原居民因住在這個林班地連最基本的整修房屋都寸步難行長年活在這棟房子到底算不算違法的非法電我舉這三個這是比較特別的案例我的高雄市我整個山區也是這個狀況啊六龜"},{"start":619.198,"end":629.556,"text":"從我本席當立委到現在25年了尤其六龜的山區常常都有這種林班地啊你們都說違法 人家是在那邊世代居住欸好 再來"},{"start":631.499,"end":650.35,"text":"好我們看這些事實是什麼西投莊西投莊家案在現行制度下補還居民4代主張4居多久在無法在現行的體制下證明為合法最後的結局都只有拆除跟驅離所以森林法第8條之一是要解決這個結構的問題"},{"start":652.091,"end":656.172,"text":"嘉義山區案居民在立委服務處陳明文陳立委的這個服務處像跪求欸你看到這個不會流淚嗎還要人民跪求欸你們的那個農業部在幹什麼你看到這個跪求你心裡不會淌血嗎"},{"start":670.418,"end":683.99,"text":"請求這個土地剩餘生存權的畫面 凸顯這不是單一個案而是整個山區治理結構的長期問題 奮起無暗好 這雖然是林班第四你們管人家來問國有財產署 人家國有財產署就講啦"},{"start":685.351,"end":696.987,"text":"不好意思我們這個國有財產署的辦理方法很簡單陳初步你領到租約之後只要依租約使用就可以繼續合法不會被拆除我們有明確的幾個文件你只要提出來就可以了"},{"start":703.12,"end":717.628,"text":"我只差說好國有財產署再做給你做指導你連聽都不聽啊所以這可以證明一件事情從一國我們國家政府一體的情況之下國有財產署做得到你林保署就做得到"},{"start":718.388,"end":746.601,"text":"證明一件事情 只要國家承認歷史使用的私事透過解編 懲諸主席不好意思喔 再兩分鐘等機制調整地目與權利居民就可以在不犧牲森林保育的前提下講好不犧牲森林保育的前提下可以取得穩定安全的居住環境所以森林法的第八條之一就是把這樣的個案協商的經驗制度化為可普遍適用的法律工具"},{"start":747.381,"end":751.376,"text":"那再来下一页好下一页"},{"start":753.59,"end":778.253,"text":"好 山區居民本席就要立即要求 既然現在在修法階段我提出三點 這個不是森林法第八條之一不是只上座而是真正落實 包括你院版現在正在進行所以第一個 立即暫緩強制拆除你的報告說什麼啊 說說你們還在針對爛肯定的清理機制還要分聯進行排除佔用 你給我即刻給我暫停"},{"start":780.134,"end":794.981,"text":"給我即刻暫停如果在森林法當包括你的院版當中沒有修法通過以及這個當中沒有納入第八條之一的執法修法完成之前餘率帳房強制拆除局刑事移送避免編修法"},{"start":795.881,"end":805.507,"text":"邊拆孵的荒謬情況如果這個剛才你講了你的院板都還在進行當中你還在修法的階段你還在拆孵這個不是很荒謬嗎好再來全國盤點跟資料公開在你們現在本席要求三個月內你盤點全國的國有跟公有林地的疑似符合的條件的住戶全部盤點"},{"start":817.814,"end":820.957,"text":"這樣而且要以圖資跟數據的方式公開送本院備查避免黑箱操作與選擇性執法以及從現在開始你們要準備在這個六個月內完成實習細則怎麼參考一下學習一下國有財產署他們怎麼讓人民來申辦的就學習他我讓你六個月去學習好最後我要呼籲的是下一頁"},{"start":843.922,"end":866.092,"text":"這個不好意思主席我停一下這個你們一直都不能動我一直不能按這個處理一下好嗎好同一個家庭是占用戶還是國民森林法第8條之一是讓國家承認一個簡單的事實在161萬公頃的國有林地不只有樹也有一代又一代住在那裡的人你的161萬公頃裡面的國有地沒有樹人嗎"},{"start":872.455,"end":888.162,"text":"有住的原住民我們支持他 我大力的支持住的閩南人 住的漢民族你就不把他當做人看啊而且連國有財產署都認定這樣的漢民族都可以住在那邊了你的農業部還忽視"},{"start":891.964,"end":916.03,"text":"還忽視說這161萬公頃當中沒有住的人你的土地正義捍衛的人權在哪裡憲法保障的人民的居住權在哪裡本席要求今天行政院跟主管機關正面回憶這個條文背後的歷史欠帳以具體行動讓山區居民在不犧牲環境保育的前提下終於能夠在國家法律內被當成有名字"},{"start":916.61,"end":926.278,"text":"有地址有權利的公民 同一個家庭在地級上可以被叫作占用府在國家記憶裡面 應該永遠被叫作國民謝謝主席那他的回應咧 到底他針對真理法第8條這些委員提案是忽視呢還是一樣 反正跟我沒關係而且"},{"start":941.391,"end":968.369,"text":"好 要跟委員溝通 溝通是朝向來跟我們有看重的這個人民的居住權還是不要土地正義 你剛才講得非常好 土地正義我們現在只要求它要有證明那航照圖的證明 您剛才講的清朝日本時代的時候 航照圖一定會出現所以現在我們處理的是 你航照圖沒有的時候那就是先讓肯的部分 那我們就會處理來 你現在只講一個本席提的那個法案 本席 不好意思"},{"start":972.214,"end":974.755,"text":"國產署跟我們農業部本身的處理的原則是不一樣 我們有清理 國產署沒有清理"},{"start":992.865,"end":1009.471,"text":"欸那個是你的列正說我叫你清理啊你終於講出重點了所以我說你三個月內要提出清理啊所以不能像國產署一樣一個時間點切下去就結束了喔對 我想你已經講到重點因為你沒有清理因為我們有清理"},{"start":1011.272,"end":1036.779,"text":"因為你沒清理 所以你的疑似戶數我叫你盤點然後你才依照這些戴華委員跟部長 因為時間已經所以你把我高雄市山區的居民放在哪裡我六龜 紅森林 甲仙我會跟委員再溝通你把我高雄市山區的居民東九區的居民放在哪裡我就講我高雄市就好了"},{"start":1037.979,"end":1054.228,"text":"你放在哪裡 你現在還在跟我騙說好我只有一項規則就可以了為什麼國有財產署可以多少我還針對可以六項的申請的要件水電證明也可以啊你只有一個航照圖"},{"start":1055.874,"end":1078.079,"text":"我們請部長針對我們目前一些土地的一些寬容的部分因為確實很多都是很早就已經在這一塊土地生長的他的一個權益所以因為過去可能我們老一輩的沒有資料那麼清楚而造成他自己的權益受損這也不公平"},{"start":1078.459,"end":1105.28,"text":"所以拜托大家就是拜托部长我们的署长这里我们了解一下状况因为不是在高雄而已台南 嘉义每个地方都有这个状况也确实林务局的相关土地林班地的部分比较多这个状况那台南署都已经有调整了那我们林班地要怎么调整那当然我们现在是用航测图可是航测图晚之后还是有一些"},{"start":1105.8,"end":1130.268,"text":"移株之憾 那這個部分怎麼補強怎麼補足 再拜託我們部長再做一個思考 再跟我們委員再做討論那個主席可不可以請你請他們 我不敢說要求啦 我已經很寬容了說請他們研議納入院版的版本 你沒有研議納入院版版本其實對我們這些委員長期以來 所以請他先把"},{"start":1130.948,"end":1154.476,"text":"我們的意見 然後收集起來溝通 因為目前院版還沒進來他的院版沒有 我很認真看他的簡報對 他的院版我看了簡報從頭 他不管他增訂的部分他的修正的第 你的簡報的第幾頁 第二頁所以我們還有一個修法的階段嘛 討論的階段就只有第二頁所以到時候再來做處理好 待會因為時間上 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859a585ff93005fbf4bbd93e540dfe0040ea0b20679a7fea94cf8672e411591f1865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:51:35 - 11:02:17","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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那現在有請我們陳部長我們請陳部長部長好部長好 我知道聽您的質詢 我聽了一句話 我覺得很莫名其妙說我們如果到中國大陸去看了 也是非洲豬人帶進來"},{"start":30.403,"end":45.118,"text":"顏色太重了 到日本有沒有到美國有沒有 到越南有沒有我跟委員報告齁 不要這樣舉例不是 你要聽我講一分鐘就好非洲豬瘟的傳播除了廚藝以外還有人員的接觸你如果到養豬場進去養豬場也有可能帶來我是指這個我跟你講啊"},{"start":51.504,"end":79.205,"text":"從其他非洲豬瘟 從其他非洲其他國家非洲豬瘟爆發也有非常多的人員的接觸你到中國大陸就會把非洲豬瘟帶進來我不知道你這個舉例怎麼樣因為你是學者之身的我們的理論要很中道也要有那個對 我就是跟您講說非洲豬瘟的傳遞除了廚藝還有很多很多的方式你頭腦的意識永遠在這個對立之中啊認知的一個問題啦"},{"start":81.192,"end":108.827,"text":"我們做事情 尤其是這個基地好像一個樹架大家都很注意好不好 抱持戒慎其他國家有非常多的就是因為人員的傳遞才造成非洲豬瘟的爆發保留 你要跟我去印尼移工嗎來 圖片出來好 你大概聽你說你大概沒有看過萬里長城也沒有做過但是我們萬里長沙"},{"start":111.937,"end":117.519,"text":"我希望你有機會 以前跟我去會館過 110年3月辦理會館現在東北季風就大量帶來風沙 連漁港的道路跟漁港都進出困難"},{"start":132.933,"end":157.001,"text":"再來這裡 最重要的風波的沙都催入民宅很嚴重的 我這個問題要把你拿過去那邊有來處理但是處理的效果不怎麼好當初我處理的方式是1月是協助清醫2月是同意重新檢定這個"},{"start":159.895,"end":162.781,"text":"稍微的標準就是加深"},{"start":164.352,"end":192.957,"text":"降挖一個深度啊 為2公尺壓到剩3公尺下去但是壓了這幾年的實驗啊那個風沙MO我們的港口情形啊沒有得到實質的改善啊我現在給你看這張照片現在的沙濱就這樣地啊應該你的防信步道都不能走路了整個都掩埋起來了所以對於總體的背景"},{"start":194.117,"end":209.038,"text":"跟從地移民就十分困擾但是裡面是有時候依照自己的方法來做所以在這裡面我們當地的移民給我建議說看你們在苑港、伊港北邊的養殖區"},{"start":211.487,"end":226.731,"text":"靠外面的淺灘先定沙南邊的堤防的飄沙就會減少再來栽植木馬房跟黃瓊室我常常想這個問題你剛才說的中國大陸我常常想"},{"start":229.392,"end":247.2,"text":"那中國大陸在沙漠立法已經做得非常成功人家大片的土地那個沙漠的地區已經立法很成功我們台灣要抗中保台我們感覺海邊的沙灘雨沙幾十年都沒辦法人家處理你也想一個泡沫出來去墊一個我們的港府"},{"start":251.673,"end":276.695,"text":"報告委員 你說往里長沙怎麼跑到抗中保台去那我想基本上我們會重視這個問題特別是您剛才講的漁港的北側本身你如果去做這些燃殺的話它是有限的但是林保署每一年它會持續做定殺這個動作那現在有一些地背現在開始逐漸的穩定那穩定了以後我們就會後面就會比較減少這個部分它不需要一點時間"},{"start":277.836,"end":287.71,"text":"我不知道有沒有穩定 但是沒有全部穩定刷又硬起來 沒有一定穩定以前有穩定都被刷粉跟煙埋過有跟委員用 要去看"},{"start":291.467,"end":308.547,"text":"我們現場來看嗎我們現場來會刊我們的林市長你應景又有能力這條看你的改革貼一條卸條來去你的港府人家中國大陸的沙漠立法都那麼成功了還不管從何時怎樣引進各種方式都要改進"},{"start":309.588,"end":332.233,"text":"不要自以為很滿足啊我們都要去學習人家的長度看他怎麼做但是這台機器人家有特別建議在縣議席的人去設沙場帶透過縣議席的潮汐把沙這樣打出來你知道他們的經驗很深科技考慮真的這一次要解決了"},{"start":332.873,"end":333.093,"text":"誰敢講這樣子"},{"start":349.355,"end":350.697,"text":"每一個都跟我反映"},{"start":365.322,"end":386.712,"text":"他認為我有解決這個問題的能力但是反映到現在就沒有改革所有臉上無光 整個部長 市長臉上無光沒有 這個部分要一步一步我想我們後續會來那個好 我來解釋一下時間那今天談到森林法林市長講過幾十年了 我從來沒有改進"},{"start":387.987,"end":412.329,"text":"我們森林法規定不管不論都市計畫中還是非都市計畫中的山坡地開發都須繳納回饋金都市計畫內 我現在跟你討論都市計畫內所以我這次要提出48條之一的修法希望"},{"start":413.598,"end":436.201,"text":"都市計畫中的山坡地不用繳納山坡地利用的開花回饋金這我講了幾年因為我那特別嚴重苗栗縣的山坡地佔了85%的責任您知道我們也爭論了好幾次我說啊照您並不是"},{"start":437.608,"end":454.782,"text":"都市計畫內山坡地持有者的責任造林是全民造林嗎啊你怎麼叫我們山坡地山坡地的都市計畫開發裡面就又受到了很多的限制尤其我們廟裡管池熱 池燃"},{"start":456.874,"end":472.086,"text":"厚隆 通宵宴旅 海邊的地方大概比較平其他的都山坡地 85%我們交情交到5萬名來來來你那個回饋金一年收了多少錢你們的小金庫你從來不放"},{"start":472.907,"end":476.111,"text":"我們有很多東西就會回到獎勵造齡的這些幾戶又回到給造齡者啊"},{"start":493.915,"end":519.923,"text":"回到哲教你們的大家的責任安裝我都市計畫的山坡地我要特別回饋我跟委員報告回饋金如果政府是議題的話我不是跟你討回饋金啦我感覺這樣對於都市計畫內的山坡地的開發者尤其對我們苗栗非常不公平啦師兄你講一下"},{"start":520.993,"end":542.142,"text":"你給我這樣討論幾年你這樣現在給我後悔後悔說都會改過因為這個山坡地它是山坡地回饋金它是減少破地抑制破地災害的發生所以用造林發生所以破地沒有分是都市計畫或者是非都市計畫基本上它是山坡地這個是當時立這個定這個的意旨你不能用這樣來講嘛造林是大家的責任嘛為什麼只有"},{"start":549.045,"end":575.803,"text":"都市計劃內山坡地的人要特別去繳這筆錢沒有 委員你應該記得前幾天農委會也曾經幫忙過縮減了苗栗縣的那個山坡地的範圍沒有沒有 其實有很多山坡地你告訴我你知不知道我怎麼不知道那個就是客觀沒有辦法沒有 我很羞嘛不然你拿你的方案出來你拿你跟我收掉他這個就是依據山坡地的範圍內跟我苗栗縣都市計劃內的山坡地收了多少你跟我講"},{"start":577.113,"end":595.16,"text":"我每次都相信你 你會改進啦但是你這樣都迷迷糊糊這樣給我扶著就過了現在我真的要認真的檢討我們會很清楚的跟您報告過去這幾年這個之前我們都有跟您報告過你有報告過 對但是就不怕 大家就這樣啊我剛才就說他不是依據"},{"start":595.86,"end":621.267,"text":"非都或都市計畫的山坡地它山坡地是一體 它是為了要防災啊你別這樣啦 照領全民的責任嘛這個是當時例子的法律不然你平地也要拿 山坡地給他撿嘛平地也要拿 照領市山坡地的人的責任嘛這個是意志破地災你別這樣說 我不承認這一點照領市全民的責任我們在 最後再跟委員溝通啦 好不好我跟妳說 不然溝通這次我提出來我願意給你修到合理一點"},{"start":625.543,"end":638.793,"text":"你不可以這樣忽略一年 再過一年我一直覺得你們很實在結果我發覺都很不實在感覺我跟老師 你就要跟我那樣這樣忽略就過了不會啦 我們不會這樣想啦我看起來都差不多這樣啦好嗎 這點要好好做 謝謝謝謝陳朝明委員"}]}},{"id":"165968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859e773efa2a21466e3bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b2a3a65f0a64d6ccd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:42:29 - 10:51:31","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝主席我想請陳部長請陳部長委員好"},{"start":19.824,"end":36.393,"text":"部長早安非洲豬瘟到現在已經超過一個月了但是我們看到昨天韓國也爆發了今年第六起的非洲豬瘟的疫情他們將全國禁應48小時我必須告訴部長這真的非常嚴重我們從"},{"start":41.696,"end":66.086,"text":"10月22號起這個活豬禁運禁載然後同時禁止廚餘餵豬那這個疫調結果也顯示為落實這個廚餘真主就養豬用廚餘養豬這件事情是疫情爆發的主要原因這個您同意嗎 對不對對 我們疫調結果是這樣子對 那我想要請問一下禁止廚餘養豬這個措施目前有要調整嗎"},{"start":67.362,"end":89.006,"text":"我想第一個部分就是大方向我先講大方向因為我們大概後面還有很多細節要處理第一個部分就是我們在禁止以後如果要重新開放我已經說過要符合落實證書及時監控跟法令以外地方政府要同意然後大方向的料源的部分我們會先針對家戶處理做禁止"},{"start":89.226,"end":99.075,"text":"那為什麼剛剛媒體都在報導說農業部打算在12月初開始有新的廚餘政策要開放事業廚餘呢我說的是禁用家戶廚餘然後因為"},{"start":106.499,"end":118.979,"text":"廚藝養豬必須要有一個過渡期所以你現在是在告訴我說事業廚餘裡面應該是不會有非洲豬瘟我覺得所有的防疫都是用風險的角度齁然後家務廚餘的風險是最高的你現在是在幫"},{"start":120.527,"end":135.925,"text":"事業廚餘背書說他不可能是破口嗎我跟委員說明你不要用這種方式去影射沒有我想要你正面說明啊我強調就是說我禁用家戶廚餘然後第二個部分就是你禁用家戶廚餘但是我還沒有講完我還沒有講完我還沒有講完可不可以讓我講完好你講"},{"start":140.831,"end":160.538,"text":"你講第一個部分在過渡期的話我們會禁用加護廚因為廚藝養豬轉型需要一點時間然後最後我們會有個落日期就是全面禁用加護廚那預計什麼時候全面禁用因為預計禁用的部分可能跟後面的這些廚藝的再利用的部分我們再跟環境部正在討 正在處理部長"},{"start":161.198,"end":172.71,"text":"我必須要提醒您您是農業部的部長保障保護這些豬農才是你的第一要務為什麼你要把環境部的責任全部攬在你身上呢環境部怎麼樣處理廚餘是他的問題怎麼會你要幫他處理呢如果照委員這樣講農業部的立場之前就非常清楚了是原則禁止"},{"start":184.949,"end":210.15,"text":"然後你有落實徵主的條件的時候由地方政府發許可所以所有的開放廚餘是由地方政府去核發的你的意思是說那現在你說這些事業廚餘那要怎麼辦呢你現在是說你要開放事業廚餘是嗎我是說禁用家戶廚餘那你要開放事業廚餘嗎在過渡期的話它是可以使用要落實徵主"},{"start":211.661,"end":218.883,"text":"所以你就是要開放廚餘養豬的意思嗎我先問你一個問題過渡期是多久過渡期是多久我們還在討論可以有一個大方向嗎我們大方向已經有了現在就是說在處理這個時間點這個在時間點我們必須再跟環境部我們還會再跟縣市政府的首長去做溝通我先舉一個例子好不好 部長"},{"start":238.427,"end":250.392,"text":"假設我想要請問一下 事業廚餘是有包括餐廳嗎餐廳跟那個團散的部分都是屬於事業廚餘"},{"start":251.408,"end":265.019,"text":"所以餐廳好了 假設我這餐廳的廚餘桶好 廚餘桶放在外面然後我隔壁鄰居把他的家戶廚餘拿來倒你有辦法分辨嗎你沒有辦法分辨嘛這個源頭分類就沒有辦法100%監控嘛我現在就告訴你說 假設我們還會有落實真主的即時監控"},{"start":275.467,"end":280.49,"text":"那你現在是在因為你知道嗎因為這8%的廚餘養豬不全面禁止的話就是其他的92%的飼料養豬戶都要一起承擔這非洲豬瘟的風險"},{"start":290.675,"end":296.637,"text":"是2000億產值的整個產業鏈欸你現在是要讓我們做半套的意思嗎就你說交互廚餘禁止然後你要開放事業廚餘你怎麼有辦法保證我說過了我們在過渡期是這樣處理過渡期是多久嘛過渡期的過渡的時間還要看後面的交互是多久嘛你至少給我們三年嗎 十年嗎"},{"start":317.345,"end":336.34,"text":"我們明確了以後就會對外說明那是什麼時候會明確嘛因為你今天都已經接受記者訪問了今天我們本身我就講個大方向一個就是加護廚藥禁用第二個我們會有弱智條款就是這樣子弱智條款所以那我想要請問說是不是假設這個事業廚餘真的去養豬了然後再發生非洲豬瘟誰要負責"},{"start":342.369,"end":357.823,"text":"我們所有的 你沒有要負責嘛對不對我告訴你你也沒有要負責啊你也覺得跟你沒有關係啊難道農民的死活是他們家的事啊所有的廚餘再利用是由地方政府核發的我們會跟桃園市政府溝通我們會跟新北市政府溝通"},{"start":358.868,"end":361.37,"text":"對他們本身所以你的意思是說你要開放然後他們也開放如果假設開放如果有破口有這個非洲豬瘟在產生你現在在告訴我說跟你農業部沒有關係是不是"},{"start":374.161,"end":386.964,"text":"我從來沒有講這句話那否則誰要負責假設 假設 假設 假設再爆發我問你 假設再爆發你要不要下台負責你今天如果同意你今天如果同意說再爆發你願意下台負責那我也沒有話說我也沒有話說如果你是願意負責的我沒有話說但是你願意負責嗎我們不會讓它發生"},{"start":399.417,"end":406.462,"text":"你現在是在跟我掛保證嗎我沒有 我不會讓它發生你不會讓它發生是 你說這些事業廚餘不會變成破口 假設變成破口再發生誰要負責 你現在告訴我我告訴你 防疫是中央跟地方一起的責任對啊 那跟你沒有關係嗎當然有關係啊是不是你政策 你要先做出政策啊我政策講得非常清楚啦你的政策就是要開放"},{"start":425.876,"end":431.161,"text":"事業廚餘嘛我現在要求你說你如果可以保證說這不會是破口的話如果是破口如果假設廚藝養豬又發生非洲豬瘟爆發你要負責嗎你願意負責嗎沒有我知道是負責我問你嘛你願意負責嗎你可以下台嗎你下台也救不了這些豬農"},{"start":451.417,"end":460.146,"text":"你知道你做的這個決定 影響多少人嗎我跟委員說明齁 防疫是中央政府一起努力的是 可是你願意 你願意允許 允許事業廚餘這是在防疫嗎 這是在防疫嗎我跟你講 非都豬瘟的你現在告訴我說 事業廚餘不會是破口"},{"start":473.72,"end":480.223,"text":"你聽一聽你自己相信嗎我現在就告訴你說你自己相信嗎他是零風險嗎風險有高有低沒有零的那他是高還是低我告訴你加物除以是低的加物除以是高的事業除以是低的"},{"start":490.247,"end":504.156,"text":"但他也是有風險啊我現在就問你說假設這個是破口假設他變成破口你要不要負責如果委員今天到中國去或是其他地方到養殖場再進來的話也有可能傳播所以你在講什麼東西我在跟你講什麼東西"},{"start":506.477,"end":515.164,"text":"你再跟我講什麼東西你頭腦清楚好好想一想說這個非洲豬瘟會影響多少人的生計會有多少人的死活因為你開放事業廚餘被影響我現在就告訴你你要記得就是你的責任如果有人因為非洲豬瘟爆發家破人亡就是你的責任中央跟地方政府的防疫是要一起的"},{"start":536.403,"end":537.266,"text":"謝謝 謝謝我們現在請陳昌明委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"165967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859dae333115c56c2f1d6356a8ccaa37a42432a9691d58560b24aa7cc099e138eec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:35:42 - 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謝謝主席我請一下我們法務部次長還有我們衛福部次長請徐次長還有李次長委員好"},{"start":21.683,"end":37.874,"text":"兩位次長好先謝謝我們今天我們的召委排的專案報告非常重要但是我想今天也趁著兩位次長都在的時候有另外一個我自己身為女性非常關心的議題"},{"start":38.795,"end":62.874,"text":"因為就在前兩天我們包含我們有一些婦女團體以及醫療工會有做一個要求這個要求就是這一陣子其實頻頻傳出也就是所謂的狼醫這個其實我知道衛福部也非常的重視那麼我們有這種而且是民醫那麼"},{"start":65.416,"end":90.245,"text":"這一陣子出現了他沒有受懲戒而且繼續的去看診而且在我們很多的醫界也出現了很多的性平違規的事件我在這邊舉出來的123456這些其實有包含他對護理師的強制猥褻而且是判刑確定但是現在仍然在任職"},{"start":91.425,"end":115.257,"text":"那還有呢就是對護理師的性騷行為他也判刑確定但是沒有見到公開的資訊那還有新北的陳姓醫師醫生的他誘導病患發生性行為遭到懲戒而且現在呢仍然任主管職務那還有高雄珍信醫師也是一樣對於通信軟體的業者病患"},{"start":116.697,"end":143.983,"text":"這個性騷那麼也是一樣經過懲處那他被停業但是呢他也付出了還有桃園的高興醫生也有性侵病患那現在呢進敘的他是被懲戒但是沒有定業他照常職業中還有台中的陳姓醫生他也是這個多次假借看診之名來性騷病患而且確認他有違規行為可是沒有任何的懲戒"},{"start":145.663,"end":166.27,"text":"所以就是說在我們的醫界太多這些的狼醫所以現在呢我剛才講在前兩天我們有一些婦團還有醫療公會要求要求我們能夠去揭露這些"},{"start":167.59,"end":188.991,"text":"這些狼醫如果他已經經懲戒他已經經懲戒有的當然還有要經過法院的判決我剛剛講的一些例子法院判決判決之後他繼續在執業他繼續在執業在我們的資訊平台是找不到這些相關的資訊的找不到這些相關資訊所以"},{"start":192.014,"end":211.844,"text":"所以我們現在就說剛才講這些副團跟這些民團呢希望的是能夠比照律師法我們法務部律師法如果被懲戒的話就要公開所以呢所有的民眾可以透過這些資訊平台"},{"start":212.964,"end":233.776,"text":"能夠找得到比如說我今天我是婦女我要看哪一個婦科的醫生那我可不可以從這些資訊平台去找到他有沒有違反性平或者他有沒有性騷他有沒有甚至有沒有性侵的相關懲戒及司法的判決的這個記錄"},{"start":236.778,"end":256.6,"text":"所以我想請問一下先請我們衛福部能不能就是呂次長可以告訴我們因為我知道你們現在說要建置平台也有在揭露可是揭露的是不夠的揭露不夠所以在這個部分可不可以更能夠保障我們的這個婦女的就醫就醫的權益"},{"start":259.002,"end":273.569,"text":"然後最主要的是這些醫生這些已經有違反性平甚至被懲戒被被判決確定的案子即便他在職業中但是能夠在這些資訊平台裡面被揭露"},{"start":274.406,"end":287.564,"text":"是非常感謝王宏偉委員對於這個問題的關心我想這個不光是整個這個女性我想是整個全台灣對這個部分我覺得是非常重要那其實醫師跟很多專業人員一樣他穿上白袍本身就應該有這個專業倫理"},{"start":289.326,"end":309.02,"text":"那現在問題我想委員還有很多很多民眾都非常關心現在就是說有沒有揭露的機制對 揭露 揭露資訊要公開的部分我們本部的醫事司其實已經有一個醫事人員涉性平事件的查詢平台那現在問題在於就是說他現在目前有上這個平台是必須有確定就是說違反刑法我們現在目前會上"},{"start":310.001,"end":325.373,"text":"就是一定要司法判決嘛你們現在是一定要司法判決那我知道委員現在跟民眾現在目前就是說應該不只這樣現在就是說你只要有行政處分對 你有被懲戒你有被懲戒的紀錄因為你要被懲戒說實在也不容易啊對不對"},{"start":326.013,"end":349.995,"text":"報告委員現在目前是這樣我們現在目前有關懲戒的部分其實現在目前醫師是現在目前在研擬有一個很重要的一個重點在於就是說整個各個縣市他們那邊都有那個所謂醫師的那個專業自律就是醫師公會啦這個部分我們現在目前醫師是正在跟醫師公會那邊在緊密就是說就整個這一個尺度上面來說我們是不是應該在哪個程度應該也要來來羅利這個部分我們會趕快來進行相關的"},{"start":352.517,"end":373.317,"text":"那我想請問你們本來說明年1月份你們會再做更新然後全面更新懲戒案件那你們明年1月份的更新還是以司法判決為依據嗎包委我們到目前為止是這樣那就誠如剛剛我回答回覆委員所說就是說我們也知道民眾可能對這個還不滿意而且還覺得不夠放心"},{"start":375.939,"end":390.689,"text":"所以你現在目前就那個尺度上面來說因為有時候司法判決其實那個路很長啊那這在這個中間有的你看我剛剛講的例子是他是多次他不是一次而已是沒錯所以可不可以以就是能夠比照律師法"},{"start":391.79,"end":412.667,"text":"我待會提出來我會修法應該要提跟比照律師法如果律師有這樣的嚴格的限制那請問一下我去就醫我難道不應該有同樣的權益嗎其實報告委員我們現在目前確實有一個有一個方式我們也會研擬那個就類似律師法類似就你只要有這一個律師他們的工會那邊的一個相關的懲戒"},{"start":414.088,"end":433.846,"text":"所以你的意思是說 因為律師被懲戒是被律師公會懲戒嘛 對不對這樣揭露嘛所以你的意思就是說你們也可以跟各地方縣市政府的醫師公會如果你被醫師公會懲戒我們常常都還說一一相護了對不對如果一一都護不了你這代表你確實這個行為也是"},{"start":436.869,"end":458.506,"text":"代表這個也沒有辦法一一相互所以 視望如果是醫師公會懲戒也應該放到你們這個資訊揭露平台嗎包委我們現在目前正在嚴嶺正在朝這個就是說在朝這個方向我們正在嚴嶺啦所以是朝這個方向好那另外你們有一個就是說醫生不同意還不用掛網是這樣嗎若醫師不同意你們就不能夠去揭露他"},{"start":464.318,"end":465.219,"text":"包圍應該...這應該是那個...應該不會這樣吧"},{"start":470.802,"end":484.773,"text":"所以那你覺得這種如果有這樣因為這個我所得到的資料是你們不但是以依司法判決做唯一揭露的這個標準而且一是若不同意你們還可以不用掛網這個是不是我想應該不會這樣不過是不是容我們回去我們跟144那邊確認之後那個會後好那我在這邊我在這邊做具體的要求第一個就是剛才你所講的方向第一個不能以司法判決做唯一的這個標準"},{"start":500.405,"end":518.636,"text":"他應該經過懲戒之後就應該資訊揭露可以不可以我們會朝這個方向好不好第二個不能因為醫師不同意你們就不掛網揭露可以不可以因為如果說醫師不同意就不給他掛網我覺得也不合理啊是不是"},{"start":520.334,"end":544.454,"text":"包委員 這個我們會朝這方向不過這個因為牽涉到整個揭露的比例原則我想這個應該不可能就是說醫師你犯了這個錯可是現在問題有一個現在就是說他到底查到什麼程度才能來揭露就是牽涉到比例原則的部分這個部分是不是可以容許因為老實說我在這邊直接也具體的講因為我準備提案就修改我們的這個醫師法"},{"start":546.155,"end":564.662,"text":"那這一施法就是比照律師法那這也是我們的這些民團在談到就說應該就說像醫改會的這個就提出來因為台灣的律師的揭露就比較有制度就有制度應該去比照律師法"},{"start":565.362,"end":577.216,"text":"比照律師法去做一個比較透明的揭露所以我在這邊也會提出修正我希望我這個修正能夠得到包含衛福部還有法務部的支持好不好"},{"start":582.093,"end":603.763,"text":"就是剛才你講的朝那個方向好不好好謝謝我們先謝謝呂部長時間暫停你可以請回最後一點點時間我請教一下我們的徐次長就是我們現在普發現金一萬塊其實很多民眾都拿到了不管他是用登記的或者在用ATM的方式"},{"start":604.463,"end":620.811,"text":"那麼都拿到了但是呢也確實出現了很多的詐騙那而且其實對於一些被詐騙的民眾來講啊我覺得實在是很淒慘啊他不過就要領一萬塊然後他就被騙一百萬這實在是不符合比例原則"},{"start":621.771,"end":649.378,"text":"所以在這個普發現金的這個詐騙的部分你們還有沒有什麼樣的精進的方式不要因為我們這個本來是德政我們就是希望來幫助人民就沒想到反而他因此而被詐騙損失慘重所以在這個普發現金詐騙的部分你們現在還有沒有什麼精進的比如說要跟包含跟這個警政署或者是跟這個訴發部等等還有沒有些什麼要精進的措施"},{"start":650.151,"end":667.84,"text":"好 謝謝委員那台高檢在14年9月17號就已經邀集邀集的地檢還有刑事警察局還有調查局我們有召開一個防治及查緝詐欺集團普發現金詐騙研商會議那台高檢跟調查局都也通令所有的檢查調查機關"},{"start":668.98,"end":687.176,"text":"加強查緝我想在查緝面的話我們是不管是司法警察或者是地檢署的檢察官之權員都動起來只要有線索我們會馬上盡速的來查辦那我們在官網裡面也有做專區來有一個QA就回答民眾的一個查詢那這個"},{"start":688.716,"end":694.521,"text":"委員也都知道這個詐騙集團就是這樣它一直變形一直變形我們不斷的宣導你剛剛講9月17號這個是還沒發那時候還因為我們是11月7號才開始所以也就是說即便我們早兩個月大家開會在這個做成會議記錄但是到了民眾他還是會被騙還是會被這些假的檢警假的這些釣魚訊息在詐騙他"},{"start":715.18,"end":728.426,"text":"所以我們在這一部分可能就是說他尤其地方像我自己當議員的時候我都盡量會去參加我們的這些李玲的工作彙報警察一定比如說警察一定會比如說我這陣子有什麼方案比如說你到了這個快要過年一定有那個春安嘛然後你這個普發現金我一定早早就告訴你"},{"start":738.25,"end":755.434,"text":"這普發現金只有這兩種途徑你千萬不要再多拿錢出來一定是就是警察是很辛苦啦我知道警察每次在那邊宣導我也陪他們拍照片啊拿宣傳單等等之類的但是我覺得我們還是不希望說變成我們一個普發現金變成這個詐騙這些集團有上下其手的可能性啦好不好"},{"start":762.116,"end":768.893,"text":"我們也希望是這樣好不好這部分我們打詐是永遠的永遠是不能夠不能夠懈怠的好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好"}]}},{"id":"165966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859e76545cf679b49f7bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b213c5f764d90b48005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:33:11 - 10:42:24","影片長度":"00:09:13","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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今年3月本席曾經問過農業部因為從110年3月就開始將生態系服務價值納入租金裡面的一部分可是因為沒有法律的依據所以當時農業部承諾6月底之前要完成法制化的一個動作請問一下部長現在進度如何"},{"start":48.627,"end":72.782,"text":"我們現在正在做法治的程序因為就像委員所說的就是生態服務本身就是一個有償的價值所以我們把生態服務會分成不同的樣態的部分包括這些給付的這些動作那這個動作一定要有法源是啊 當時說到6月底要完成現在已經到11月了11月底了 已經延了5個月好像還沒出農業部"},{"start":74.636,"end":103.187,"text":"部長可不可以解釋一下為什麼我跟委員說明其實當初在做這個法制化的時候有牽涉到那個國土法有沒有4月實施因為配合國土法本身的不同的樣態的話我們的生態給物就可以去搭配變成堆疊式的那後來因為國土法實施的延後的部分那因為延後了以後後續的各地方政府在在劃設這個不同區位的時候你所套上去的生態的給物是可能會不一樣的"},{"start":103.587,"end":129.223,"text":"部長我理解不過因為既然說多了一個生態系服務價值要把它變成租金的一部分行政部門它只要是收稅收費基本上都要有一個非常明確的法律依據部長這是基本部長也同意那現在從110年3月開始的時候你們已經開始收生態系服務價值變成租金的一部分顯然已經沒有按照"},{"start":130.123,"end":151.31,"text":"法規在執行這樣的一個收費的一個標準所以本席並沒有反對我們要做的事情只是希望說能夠盡快的把它完成法制化否則你多了一個生態系服務價值的時候比原本的租金多了兩三倍那現在這四年多繳了這樣子的錢的那個成租人的時候那他們這樣情何以堪"},{"start":151.89,"end":162.443,"text":"你於法無據去收了這樣的一個費用那部長也覺得應該要把他給法治化那本席也支持希望盡快把這樣子的一個瑕疵補起來好不好"},{"start":164.895,"end":186.532,"text":"了解我現在真的您講的這個部分是針對礦業本身我們收的這個租金然後這個部分我想我們跟礦務局這邊已經在一起我想我們會盡快啦盡快大概什麼時間給我一個時間好不好我們11月底會先找礦業者去做溝通跟說明接下來接下來就多久多久比如說我們今年年底可以完成"},{"start":187.208,"end":203.344,"text":"今年年底就今年12月底之前嘛好不好好那這個部分我們希望政府所有要收的費用都能夠依法有據我覺得這是很重要的一個原則不要讓公務人員於法無據去"},{"start":204.345,"end":224.318,"text":"進行一個不當的收費的狀態那麼我接下來想請教一下因為行政院曾經核定新興族產業發展計畫新興族產業發展計畫這個部分其實也已經進行了很多年農業部這邊有建立一個台灣零產品生產追溯系統"},{"start":225.259,"end":240.084,"text":"那我想請問一下部長到目前為止就是主產業的部分一直沒有辦法納入我們零產品生產追溯系統當中為什麼可請部長回應一下我可不可以請林保署署長說明"},{"start":242.418,"end":255.917,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經修訂了這個零產品生產追溯管理作業規範那在接下來明年1月1號就可以來實施了就會納入 明年1月1號開始實施那因為在這個"},{"start":259.571,"end":277.897,"text":"在這個新興族產業發展計畫綱要裡面就是有特別提到說112年度林業試驗所他要成立一個族財資源及財源及料源的一個資訊平台而且弄了1400萬到目前為止執行了沒"},{"start":282.97,"end":310.548,"text":"署長部長知不知道應該是有執行有執行嗎這個容我會後再了解這個112年部分我再提供給委員好因為這個很具體然後我們看到目前為止這個資訊平台那個署長說有其實我是沒有看到所以部長這邊會後再給本席辦公室一個很清楚的狀態因為這個部分我們很清楚的需要知道的是既然這個112年計畫到目前為止"},{"start":313.05,"end":337.406,"text":"那如果沒有完成它原因在哪裡那我們如何在這個平台還沒有建立之前的時候然後我們能夠對於整個台灣那個竹產業有更好的一個保障對消費者也有保障因為大家對竹筷子的安全性都會有很多很多的質疑目前網路上也很多會提到竹筷子的問題那我們希望這個部分能夠有效的來解決好不好 部長"},{"start":338.146,"end":363.704,"text":"可以好那接下來我想問一下就是毒蛋的問題因為蛋這個問題其實從六年前的時候我就開始提到了那芬普尼這件事情的時候那陸續就會一直有不定期就會爆發出來說可能會有含芬普尼這個蛋那我們對於這個部分的時候可不可以請部長"},{"start":365.526,"end":390.318,"text":"很清楚的跟我們說明一下 為什麼芬普尼已經禁用了 也禁用了六年了 可是他還是不定期的就會爆發出來 有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼 而且其實坦白說 政府都沒有辦法有效的把它追蹤回來 因為蛋一下就被吃掉了 對國人的健康來說是一個很大的危害 可不可以請部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":391.398,"end":420.594,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明就是蜂母泥是一個環境用藥它是一個殺蟲劑所以當你的禽社如果說你的環境比較差的時候或者是你的整個敘舍比較不好的時候你就有機會用到它去做這些環境的清理所以我們從農業部從過去幾年來我們一直提供這個敘舍的改建禽社的改建但是禽社的改建的部分因為現在地方政府要重新同意"},{"start":421.114,"end":439.387,"text":"然後大家都擔心林壁設施都這個改建的速度非常慢就是說即使他希望改建可是人家會認為他可能會擴建所以造成很多的困擾部長沒問題因為分譜你是環境用藥其實本席知道那植樹它不能用在畜牧上面"},{"start":439.807,"end":467.965,"text":"那也推了六年了可是目前還是不定期就會碰到毒彈的一個問題那本席認為環境部這邊有沒有去追蹤因為環境部有提出了幾種的一個合法合規的一個用藥對不對只是說因為這個用藥的成本顯然是比分普尼高了非常的多而且可能是十倍二十倍劑那以這種狀態來說我們農業部有沒有更具體的一個做法能夠改善這樣的一個情況讓毒彈"},{"start":469.306,"end":486.887,"text":"不会一而再再而三的出现我觉得第一个就农业部来讲就是续型场域的环境的改善这个我想我们会加强那第二个部分其实就是后市场跟我们生产端本身的联合集合这个也是非常重要的因为我们所有的鸡蛋都有溯源码嘛"},{"start":487.407,"end":510.172,"text":"那溯源碼不是等到吃到肚子才去溯源碼是部長你講得很好因為有集合的狀態的時候基本上來講我們只要按照他們比方說有多少的一個機織要用多少的一個相關的一個合法的一個藥我們就可以算出來如果說有養雞場他們用的合法用藥量不夠的時候我們是很容易把它稽查出來的"},{"start":510.732,"end":533.306,"text":"所以本席希望這個部分我們能夠更有效的一個稽查然後對於現在的一個法則會不會太輕或者是對於比方說我們合法用藥的部分的時候比用分普尼可能高達10倍20倍的狀態我們會不會有另外的一個補助希望能夠提高違法的一個成本然後提高合法的一個補助然後用更完整的一個稽查來解決這個問題部長可不可以"},{"start":535.047,"end":554.451,"text":"我想可以就是第一个扩大我们的联合稽查所抽取的样本数然后根据它的风险有的情色可能风险比较高那我们的稽查强度就会比较强用这种方式去二组然后情色的改进也会持续的来努力来协助OK 好 谢谢部长谢谢曾振前委员"}]}},{"id":"165965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158599323d900e1a72e3cd6356a8ccaa37a42432a9691d58560b2bfd08b43458302aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:23:23 - 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矯正他的性格這是少事法本身的宗旨跟目標那檢察 對檢察官來講"},{"start":176.258,"end":193.083,"text":"這個偵查犯罪這個才是他的重要目標所以會導致像剛剛有不同委員就認為說你們少年法院法官你們偵查技巧你們根本就無法發現真實無法把犯罪偵破大概是這個意思他講的白話就是說"},{"start":193.843,"end":209.671,"text":"你們這個少年法院你們的法官沒有我們檢察官在偵查犯罪事實你們沒有那個技巧啦所以常常導致暗中出共的結果結果你們問過了之後我們再過來再到檢察官來的時候我們已經問不出來了等等諸多這樣子的講法但是當回頭來問說那要怎麼解決"},{"start":215.942,"end":232.088,"text":"其實在現有的架構除非你去修改少年事件處理法否則在現有的架構就是這樣子啊你說少年 只要是少年犯罪你就必須要移送少年法庭啊不能說我少年事件不移送少年法庭先讓檢察官徵詢徵詢完了之後再移送少年法庭不行嘛現有體制裡面不行啊"},{"start":233.154,"end":260.742,"text":"那過去確實但在實務上確實是是造成一些問題造成這個檢察官也好司法警察也好對於這個這個這個整個在在偵辦過程中必須要依照少年事件處理法來先移送少年法庭這件事情認為造成了蠻多實務上面的問題那這些問題剛才我聽到廳長在這個回答陳培育文的時候也講得非常清楚幾個問題你們都事實上這在最近都建立了"},{"start":261.562,"end":280.609,"text":"相關的因應的機制希望能夠解決這個問題那我覺得這個就是說你在現有的體制之下你在現有的架構之下你不可能去變更現有的架構之下我們要來做調整來解決現在目前我們這個檢察官我們司法警察的實務上面"},{"start":281.82,"end":300.151,"text":"大家的這些困境就是建立一些機制來解決至於這個機制能不能完美的解決讓檢察官覺得說以後我辦案我就不會碰到這個問題或者是能不能這樣完美的解決 還不知道對不對 市長你剛剛講的是說你也對這個機制是不是能夠"},{"start":301.249,"end":317.5,"text":"能夠順利的解決這些問題你其實也沒有把握對不對對 因為這畢竟是法官的核心的審判工作所以我們是持續關注我們也會把我們觀察所得就會提供給司法院這邊來做參考對 我覺得"},{"start":320.742,"end":337.774,"text":"關鍵就在於說雙方我們法院這邊要理解現在檢察官在偵查犯罪的時候遇到的困難這些困難就是說我們在現在建立的這幾個機制之下我們要能夠理解"},{"start":338.715,"end":358.34,"text":"司法偵查他在目前需要的這些目前遇到的困境他需要解決的部分在實際上我們現在建立新的機制的運作裡面我們要盡快的我們要去檢視然後要定期化的去看還有什麼問題需要進一步的解決這個我認為說這個沒有辦法這個在現有的"},{"start":361.101,"end":382.41,"text":"邵氏法的體制之下就是就是必須要這樣子院檢必須要這樣子的來配合這個這沒辦法這個我們在這邊在開實質的專案會議還是一樣因為法治體制就是這樣子但是實際上我們所現在新建立這些機制希望能夠順利運行能夠讓降低現在目前偵查犯罪中間所因為邵氏法相關的規定所遇到的困境"},{"start":383.814,"end":399.44,"text":"好不好 這個這部分我 我覺得但是齁其實啦齁今天要講這個這個少年司法案件其實偵查跟審判只是最最前端的一個部分而已啦齁這個這個當然說現在說成少共犯的部分我們這個關心的"},{"start":400.94,"end":428.633,"text":"剛剛講的這一大堆都是偵查跟審判那其實還有後面幾個階段後面幾個階段那就更牽涉到那就不只是司法院法務部了你再來有矯正跟教輔矯正跟教輔他就有這個這個簽了教輔小組 矯正學校那這個再來還有你在這個矯正跟教輔之後他還有一個轉弦的復歸的一個機制這些都是事實上也都是很重要而且我覺得其實也都蠻有一些檢討的空間"},{"start":430.39,"end":454.507,"text":"那這個這個剛才偵查的部分我講我們已經討論了那我接下來就就這個矯正跟教輔的實行的這個部分這個部分這個事實上我這邊引述的是你們自己的矯正期刊裡面的文章在第44節第二期裡面的一篇一個一個這個這個矯正學校的警衛隊長所寫的一篇文章認為目前這個這個"},{"start":458.075,"end":484.223,"text":"少年矯正學校教育小組實施的困難他列舉了七大項包括學生法治觀念不足家庭功能異常 多風險家庭這個我列在簡報上面這部分我們是不是能夠研議我相信他所列舉的這些困難這個都是實際存在的因為他是第一線的這個矯正學校的工作同仁"},{"start":485.543,"end":494.196,"text":"那這些東西我們是不是能夠嚴厲來調整我們目前包括這個這個教輔小組的人力的配置行政降載的機制那另外"},{"start":495.476,"end":517.245,"text":"關於學生法治教育不足的這個問題這部分我覺得我們法務部要負擔其一部分的責任因為畢竟雖然這些腳上學校他的課程設計的內容是由教育部來負責你由教育部來負責他就不可能把法治教育這部分做得完善有成效是 這個部分我們都有加強這個部分要加強那這個"},{"start":519.593,"end":527.208,"text":"這個我在這邊提一下就是說希望說我們這個有關這個矯正跟教輔的這個目前實行的困境我們法務部能夠面對"},{"start":529.441,"end":555.504,"text":"最後一點時間我要特別來談這個可能是這個司法院這邊因為少事法是由我們這個司法院這邊來做主管機關就是說我要談這個最後的這個轉弦機制跟這個復歸的問題我們這個在矯正端教育端我們這些社政端大家都反映其實不管怎麼樣在矯正之後矯正結束之後一出社會他馬上"},{"start":556.687,"end":576.734,"text":"就又同樣面對這種高風險的環境了這個一樣要這個因為這一出來一結束就馬上就缺乏這個支持的空窗期這個馬上就會出問題了那這個事實上在我們的我國的這個少年的這個司法制度裡面"},{"start":578.021,"end":600.674,"text":"其實所謂需保護性需要保護的需要保護需保護性它一定是一個核心的概念它是一個核心的概念但是在我們現在的少數法我們現在的這個少年司法的這個核心裡面我們的這個需保護性其實我們目前的法令法制體系裡面這個需保護性我們是缺乏可以操作的法律規範跟明確標準其實沒有在我們的法制體系裡面"},{"start":601.474,"end":629.536,"text":"我們是抽象的抽象的以個別的這個個案來談或這個個案少年他的狀況各方的狀況綜合評量他到底是不是具有這個這個需要保護性所以他其實就是因為沒有這個可操作的這個法律規範跟明確的標準所以導致你會常常會變得難以形成一致性那這部分我們要參我個人是參考日本日本他們的少年法治裡面他是把明確的把這個這個"},{"start":631.878,"end":653.779,"text":"這個虛保護性他把他整個系統性的評估整個做成一個可操作的一個可以一定具有法律約束性而且他可以預測的一個標準日本法是在把這個虛保護性做非常明確可操作的方式這部分我覺得司法院在"},{"start":654.48,"end":670.535,"text":"就我們的這個少年事件的這個處理法裡面我是希望說在這個法治體系裡面能夠把這個需保護性你要能夠有一個這個系統性的評估包括把它一些的變相它實際上"},{"start":671.836,"end":690.802,"text":"來作為他的評估的一些準則包括他是不是有這個家庭的知識他的情緒認知的發展落差包括他這個個案跟社區的連結包括他跟這個同儕學校同學的互動等等這些指標都應該要具體在法治化裡面具體的納入法治化裡面讓他變成"},{"start":692.523,"end":711.092,"text":"而且在法治上面不只是要描述他背景而已你就是因為用這些因素來作為他處遇未來的這些處遇的一些關鍵的依據就是按照我剛所講的這些指標這部分我覺得我們應該要納入法治化這部分如果到目前為止我們我國的法治在這個部分其實是抽象的"},{"start":712.031,"end":730.347,"text":"是沒有具有可操作性的這部分我希望司法院能夠在這個我們這個有關這個少年司法的這些相關的體制裡面能夠把這個虛保護性能夠把它具體化讓它變成具有法律的約束而且讓它具有可預測性好不好"}]}},{"id":"165964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585965b99e35e35d5f33bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b24cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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委員長謝謝召委今天擺這個節目因為我看你們兩個人在講話我們想要都委託公務員出來先抱歉抱歉說對方配合到的問題我從這個法務部的這個報告我請這個廳長"},{"start":45.133,"end":66.045,"text":"你來討論一條法務部的報告啦他說他面臨的三大困境第一個 管轄權你剛才有解說這一定改過了嘛對次長這比較重要嘛是是這沒問題嘛那第二個困境是強制處分執行步調的歧異這廳長你有什麼看法"},{"start":67.246,"end":90.762,"text":"報告委員 這個目前我們在推動下已經解決那我報告如下 就每一個縣市的少年法庭 檢察官 警政單位 警察單位定期召開這樣解決這個問題的會議用三個方式解決 第一 成立一個專案的一個聯繫窗口"},{"start":92.003,"end":120.525,"text":"第二我們所有的法官都有受理窗口馬上受理不延誤第三配合檢察官要速度徵收第四就是有關情資共用跟這個證據共用只剩最後一個就是訓問這個通行強制處分的少年檢察官能不能先問的法律問題這樣子那有沒有發生過檢察官啊次長有沒有發生過檢察官啊"},{"start":121.286,"end":128.949,"text":"說那個年輕人 要把他收容 不能讓他回去那法官 法院 看過後說這沒什麼問題這讓他回去 哪有什麼問題你們肉發生過這個 有爭執過嗎"},{"start":136.806,"end":153.281,"text":"報告委員這的確是實務上發生的事情因為少年法庭的法官他的看點他是以輔導跟保護少年我們這邊是犯罪偵查是想要溯源再去找到成年人所以觀念上是不一樣的"},{"start":154.082,"end":174.024,"text":"那可能少年法庭的法官會認為這個少年就像大家講的免洗塊他本身還好可能因為家境清寒等等他想說這個回去就好了可是這個就會影響到後面偵查的作為他一去可能又被成年人拉走了或被恐嚇了叫他不能講話"},{"start":175.205,"end":194.203,"text":"他可能一回去之後在法院門口接他了是詐騙集團的律師 對對吧 對所以我們其實也是在保護他我們希望說暫時不要讓他在外面遊蕩又被這些成人又帶走了好 那所以我請問一下廳長在實務上"},{"start":196.863,"end":205.99,"text":"如果這個檢測官他通知這個法官說那個你不要幫他那如果幫一整天他馬上再詐騙集團再叫他回去問說阿葛多阿問你什麼問你什麼問你什麼這個時候實務上這個時候我們的法官一般會做什麼歡迎"},{"start":220.302,"end":238.439,"text":"雖然法官個案決定說不收容是審判核心但現在我們經過這樣的一個聯繫會議跟我們開的研討會跟促進目前用三個方案法官其實有很多資料可以收容保護性收容少年也就是說警察加強"},{"start":239.84,"end":249.525,"text":"續名載名這個他加入這個共患的詐團檢察官又聲明他有篡證以及去維護那這個時候第三個我們知道這些詐團家車手的孩子很少回家後住在旅館所以即以這樣我們照事法26條絕對符合收容那個叫保護性收容還篡 篡證收容"},{"start":264.873,"end":283.312,"text":"以及再回到詐團的收容所以現在的比例比較高有收容起來那這個需要大家一起合作如果這個資料不太夠法官會用保護性比較多的就把它釋放就是說所謂責護所以目前有這樣的促進我們"},{"start":285.614,"end":304.102,"text":"邵家廷在法官的在職研習我們都親自到場開課去對這些蒐集資料分析促進法官那檢察官也有善意的回應我們得到了很多紀錄他們就這個部分也會加強請法官去考慮孩子篡證回到詐團很好謝謝廷長你告訴我這個社會都有聽到詐團也有聽到"},{"start":313.404,"end":321.766,"text":"這很關鍵喔 集團也聽到了就是說這個年輕人 現在我們這個少年法庭這裡的法官要不要收容他你跟我說的一點最重要的就是這個年輕人有沒有固定的住所就是說他可能離家出走 很久了家人可能也要隔代教養阿公阿嬤也不知道這個年輕人他們孫子跑去哪裡"},{"start":342.729,"end":358.74,"text":"還可以帶中部跑去跑來台北 帶東部跑去台北 帶南部跑去台北要創這些詐騙集團嘛所以這個時候法官在實務上他就有可能把他收容了就是說現在有這樣的一個機制好 那我請問一下這個次長 聽長這樣講"},{"start":364.028,"end":381.993,"text":"你有沒有更放心 或是你也了解說開始有這個改變是 的確 司法院聽長這邊是非常非常的支持我們這一項的一個協商的會議的運作但是這個部分我們認為 老實講 我們還要觀察"},{"start":384.614,"end":406.712,"text":"因為真的是 這是少年法庭法官的核心的工作有時候有些法官可能會跟我們的希望有一點落差但是我們會持續的溝通跟這些法院的來聯繫啦希望能夠得到最好的結果是啦 因為也怕說這樣以後這裡的法官回到這裡我看都把他收容這樣也不對有時候想說這個"},{"start":413.873,"end":419.717,"text":"把他綁起來 到時候檢測官又不高興 怎麼又有一些糾紛的所以我會說 啊 過去跟收容啦 也有可能會過頭去所以這樣的一個機制 您定期有在檢討那剛剛提到這個 我覺得這個少年 相關的人啊他們被詢問啦 叫來問 還是這個"},{"start":438.59,"end":442.198,"text":"時間點啦 就是說上新盟 上澳表這時間點 現在還沒有一個好的共識就對了"},{"start":447.13,"end":474.526,"text":"是不是要說 就是你們的法務部你們說你們有第三個困境嘛這個共犯取證的時機的機制嘛對 因為現在規定就是我們檢察官不能碰就是說這個案子在警察問完以後就要在24小時之內護送到少年法庭檢察官是不能碰所以我們要透過一個協商可能筆錄我們 筆錄啦或者是一些資訊 共享警察問你要筆錄給他們嗎"},{"start":477.028,"end":491.126,"text":"警察的筆錄我們可以拿到即時拿到 對即時拿到 然後同步就到法院去了法院問完以後我們希望能夠同時就取得在少年法庭的筆錄這台法院現在有什麼問題嗎沒有問題"},{"start":495.035,"end":509.728,"text":"報告委員沒有問題因為成立了兩邊的一個緊急聯繫窗口至少都紀錄科長隨時都on call那所以這個筆錄完法官馬上核定可以先傳真密封再補正式的公文都沒有問題因為剛才這個吳宗憲"},{"start":513.892,"end":522.958,"text":"檢察官啦 不是 委員啦 他才做檢察官嘛他說有時候是這個偵查的技巧啦 細節部分喔他意思是說 發光到不發動盲唇 檢測光想要盲的那個味覺啦這 廳長 你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":535.13,"end":547.846,"text":"確實在偵查實務上有一個指揮檢察官他就所有可能的情資他掌握的非常詳細那這些詳細資料都是密封的在檢察官那邊那我們"},{"start":549.748,"end":554.329,"text":"少年法官是依據現場收證的資料來去問但是我們現在都會去注意這個共患 詐團共患所以會讓少年再多我們再多問他就在這個共患裡面他做什麼 什麼角色所以才會有很多地檢"},{"start":569.434,"end":587.179,"text":"跟法院聯合起來說檢察官如果你有更細部要我們問的你可以密封送過來或傳真過來那我們的窗口拿到我們的法官願意在這個即時合法性詢問的程序跟實體詢問一起詢問接著筆錄送給你但那個剛剛大委員吳委員是說"},{"start":593.262,"end":601.594,"text":"檢察官的去找出溯源跟法官不太一樣他是有這樣的說明所以現在這個機制也有啦就是說檢察官希望這個法官倒蒙什麼問題這個機制現在也有嘛 次長"},{"start":608.371,"end":631.029,"text":"我們已經有這個機制我們也在持續的觀察說是不是推行的很順利我們在持續關注所以你們這個定期檢討的這個機制就繼續推下去年輕人有他們的管理還有這個有時候就是兩邊大家多溝通多協調才能這個案子辦下去會比較順利好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158592f27637b05d15df7bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b2d6c50673e5555f625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:18:51 - 10:24:22","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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谢谢主席我想要请陈部长我们请陈部长"},{"start":20.169,"end":38.647,"text":"我想要请问因为现在已经到了就是农收的时期了那我知道说你们今年度有开放就是增加农业移工8000人那你们现在农业部的资格和定寒平均发放的时程是几天"},{"start":40.312,"end":59.988,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的移工從去年的一萬兩千人到現在變成兩萬人左右那整個移工的申請一部分是我們去確認他的資格最重要的是勞動部那邊要審核那過往勞動部那邊的審核的時間會比較長一點我們已經有寫他已經加速了那只要他那邊核定的話我們這邊就會來處理"},{"start":61.289,"end":78.463,"text":"所以大概一個月我們大概一個月一個月是不是那這個東西你們已經協調好了嗎因為畢竟你知道採收是有一個期效性那你如果在申請時期有延誤的話那對農民來講你增加人數根本沒有用嗎"},{"start":78.883,"end":102.886,"text":"你要減少那個資格認定函的這個時間嘛就是說這個流程的時間那你們現在目前已經跟農業部有什麼樣的窗口謝謝委員的提醒我們跟勞動部已經有一個聯繫窗口而且針對這個如何加速這個從申請到核發的這個時間點那這個部分我想他們已經快很多了啦"},{"start":103.226,"end":131.592,"text":"好 那而且你們也降低申請的門檻嘛對不對就是使用孤訓的門檻已經降低到0.1公頃以上我們是放寬啦不要說降低 放寬啦對啦 放寬啦因為畢竟現在你知道現在缺工的問題很重嘛因為我們雖然即便說你也是很致力在推廣就是智慧農業但是智慧農業的導入目前還沒有辦法很快速嘛"},{"start":131.912,"end":144.758,"text":"對不對因為這也有賴於農民共同的一些合作跟推動那也希望說這個部分我們繼續推動那智慧農業的推動的確就可以減少我們人力的需求的這個問題但是在這個過程當中這個"},{"start":150.542,"end":171.341,"text":"调整的过程当中我们还是需要有一些因应的措施短期之间我们这样子一个农业移工的开放我想要确定因为很多中小型的农户也面临到缺工的问题所以我才问你说你是不是有放宽0.1公顷以下的使用估讯"},{"start":171.961,"end":193.764,"text":"以及水到育苗放寬到兩公頃我想詳細的那個幾公頃但是我那時候已經有處理就是說那個因為小農戶的部分他基本上包括養菇的部分我們都有往下降放寬他的一個門檻那那個門檻的詳細資料我再提供0.1分地吧"},{"start":194.545,"end":219.745,"text":"估訊是0.1分地對那蔬菜果樹呢你要不要就是說有一些其他的項目你是不是也可以你們不知道也可以對不起我可不可以事後再提供給您對因為是不是說對於其他品項的是不是也能夠放寬因為我們知道說現在不管是用盡什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":220.806,"end":244.078,"text":"的方法即便我們一直致力在推廣智慧農業上面那但是在人力的需求上面目前農村的人力需求人口的凋零然後老化的程度那我們的確需要一些這些移工的需求那你是不是能夠就是說開放多一點項目來確保這些小型的那個家庭農場"},{"start":245.458,"end":270.354,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那這個部分我想我們第一個就是我們年度都會滾動的檢討那剛才針對您所提到的一些部分我想我們也會專案的方式特別是剛才您提到的水稻的育苗的部分本來是要3公頃現在已經降到2公頃了那菇類的部分本來是0.5公頃那現在已經有降下來到0.1公頃那這個部分我想我們會一定會因為農民的需要而做一些調整"},{"start":270.774,"end":295.123,"text":"好那其他項目再麻煩你喔就是說一併的考量那再來就是是不是你們你跟農業部有沒有辦法協調出一個就是說一條龍的申請跟審查的機制就是不要讓農民看在哪一個單位申請或者是怎麼樣就是不要讓農民必須要兩頭跑啊這有沒有辦法"},{"start":295.988,"end":323.758,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是針對資格的部分然後勞動部那邊是針對一些他本身申請過來的移工的相關的這些這些人力跟他的條件的部分那現在我們已經有專門的聯繫窗口那您說的要一條龍單一的服務窗口我想農業部本身願意去協助我們的農民然後去追這個案子"},{"start":324.198,"end":329.824,"text":"好好用去協調的案子來處理好再麻煩部長好不好是謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"165961","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165961","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859c04b42b1138594f4bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b2f1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:06:38 - 10:18:45","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝"},{"start":33.32,"end":51.649,"text":"我一開始執行的題目啊 跟台南的陳亭輝 高雄的林黛樺是一樣的我自己就是三區的鄉親 包括最近中天民間特徵主義都來投訴說的問題就是他們世世代代住在山區"},{"start":53.263,"end":81.333,"text":"結果啊 已經墾戶 現在變成爛墾戶了政府強拆他們的房子 要他們還地還逼出了人命 逼死了這個人命剛才伯弟說要看禁錮 我給你看他們站的禁錮來看上一張 上一張上一張這是清朝啊 光是年間的這個資料阿公的阿公那時候他們就在這邊開墾了政府 清朝的政府"},{"start":82.701,"end":105.545,"text":"發了證明給他們 你看 這是民眾給的 那個下一張在上一張那個 剛才看的是清朝對不對 嘉慶軍由台灣嘉慶軍五年的時候 開墾的時候 更借的那個地址 那個文件 他們都拿出來看啊再下來 日據時代明治35年啊這資料都有在啊"},{"start":108.137,"end":133.153,"text":"你剛講去看杭仗圖當然當然也是一個我更要進一步的跟部長跟署長提醒以前的政府怎麼處理這件事你看看啊變成總統的時候他不只沒有拆沒有去拆房子耶沒有要你還地耶他是接見嚴肯戶在陳水扁當總統的時候馬英九當總統的時候都沒有這些事情喔"},{"start":134.349,"end":158.488,"text":"包括剛才在說的 到管政府在管這個事情的時候 也沒問題啊後來移交到了農業部 遺憾的事情就發生了剛委員會再提醒 財政部的國有財產署 他的認定標準都比你還寬鬆所以齊凱 今天是我們的山區的一些鄉親 他用血淚在控訴 都逼出人命了"},{"start":159.793,"end":171.922,"text":"所以齊凱今天很沉重的提了幾個很明確的這個呼應來我們看我們的建議現在很嚴重的就是有些房子被拆了房子被拆 能不能先暫緩停拆"},{"start":174.434,"end":191.032,"text":"另外呢 要制度性去解決問題 都去補了跟內政部 你跟對岸政府要成立一個跨部會的小組趕快把它共同處理 我剛才說的人家歷史的文件都拿出來了把它做個整理 分類去管理另外做一個嚴懇部的一個調查的一個清澈另外給一個很強烈的建議"},{"start":192.473,"end":219.743,"text":"歷史的事情要有時間來處理阿旁邊這台北市那一尊違建的問題很嚴重啊所以那時候建立了一個制度民國83年以前的列管以後就緩拆了到現在都沒拆全國用的都是這個標準那個林署長我特別請你上來你算是我看過的文官裡面比較有溫度的比較文化的在處理這個事情的時候不要只有看到林保"},{"start":221.314,"end":249.942,"text":"人命是人命關天特別是一個文明的社會就是對弱勢者對年長者的照顧要越好這些人真的是非常弱勢我以前都沒讀書啊我們爸爸阿公的師弟他們都沒讀書連水電都沒有啊所以要用更柔軟的心去幫他們好不好這個我就做了四點建議好不好部長我們就先這個要給你們時間我知道因為今天要審這個森林法而且這個事情人命關天最明確的我是要求"},{"start":250.922,"end":275.942,"text":"先不要拆 要去整體去處理另外我提一個點也很重要你現在行照圖去看你會發現有些地方可能跟原來不一樣所以你就去拆它嘛可是你們出了一個很大問題喔它說有徵件那你全部怎麼 房子全部都拆掉咧你要拆頂多拆那個徵件的部分喔而且你如果徵件的是那房子那麼古老 古早期的那一齣它有時候是為了安全耶"},{"start":277.381,"end":303.183,"text":"好不好 從寬去認定 好不好這個事情我都做了監理 請去幫他們好不好 保證給我處理好 接下來問一個很重要的事情一樣是土地生意的就是工地放領那總統啊 這幾天說到說工地啊 要開始要放領這個事情可能要進一步去推動了我先注意到一個點非常奇怪"},{"start":304.329,"end":329.915,"text":"我先問你 我們的榮保是什麼時候開始事辦什麼時候開始正式的實施78年你看右邊 那你總統怎麼這樣說總統說他做行進一年時間推動改革啊只要是切實從事榮作不管是擁有農地或者是租的就可以參加榮保"},{"start":333.143,"end":349.622,"text":"對 我們那時候 現在就是說過去農保一定要有農地那現在只要是實際耕作者他如果被證明是有實際耕作者 有租地的話也可以成為農保對嘛 這72年七月一號正式實施嘛 對不對啊我們的中度當期當中107啊蛤"},{"start":353.584,"end":377.752,"text":"民國七十八年七月一號就開始實施了嘛那是農保那是農保對嘛我們總統快點說他在行政年限去推動這個農保那個是實際耕作的以前的農保是要有耕地要有土地那在一百零七年的時候我們就開放了民國七十八年的七月一號"},{"start":379.452,"end":405.741,"text":"農保在74年的10月24號事辦嘛對不對78年7月要正式實施開辦的時候是什麼就包括租地的人就可以辦農保委員你這邊可能資訊有誤喔我剛才說的78年開辦農保是一定要有土地然後107年的時候我們是說只要是口頭約只要租地是實耕者就可以加入農保那是後來放寬的部分是在107年這是我在問過"},{"start":409.458,"end":414.422,"text":"農保應該問農業部會比較清楚問農業部應該會比較清楚我剛才說的嘛主管計劃是我們開放的口頭約只要你有實際耕作者也可以稱它農保是107年"},{"start":428.334,"end":435.537,"text":"我另外問一件問題 第一牽扯到農民的福利 第二個最近總統是不是常講錯話沒有啊 這個沒有啊 這個沒有講錯話因為107年 講到2527年跟兩年後"},{"start":443.697,"end":473.077,"text":"北京政府當局就要完成武統台灣引起天然大波他自己昨天在總統府的新聞稿裡面還在進一步去改我說這個是不是也是一個口誤呢我們的農民包括如果是用租的在民國78年7月1號107年好沒關係我去問老保那邊主管機關是農業部農業部我們承辦的時候107年所以你的意思是總統當行政院長的時候推動的嗎"},{"start":474.157,"end":499.446,"text":"口頭約是總統當選人推動的啊 沒有錯啊對啊 可是也不是他任內受的啊第一個78年 這個把它查清楚啦第一個是不是他講錯話 把它進一步查清楚我就很負責任的講說是107年 我們沒有講錯話所以我說你的資訊是有誤的啊好 是不是78年就開始有 這個我們要進一步來追了好不好78年是農保開辦 107年是開放口頭約就是實耕者可以"},{"start":500.509,"end":523.983,"text":"然後租房租的像工地放領現在在租了這個租的部分租的部分就是107年啊好 這個我們進一步去追啦因為我從勞保局那邊我們的同仁去追的是這個好不好沒關係啦接下來我要問一個很重要的啦工地放領很多民眾應該是贊成的可是不要又變成幫光設置光電開了一個後門所以我具體做幾個呼籲齁做幾個建議來我們看我們的這個建議"},{"start":530.046,"end":547.14,"text":"工地放零是土地的正義可是不要變成是光電開貨門他一定要有一個嚴格的限制就是你工地放零到後來應該漏死他是農地農業所以請農業部要很注意這個事情因為總統講完之後內政部已經開始在作業了嘛所以部長這段時間"},{"start":550.387,"end":563.637,"text":"包括漁電共生我跟委員報告工地放領跟漁電共生是兩件事情我們絕對不會說為了光電而去搞這個工地放領"},{"start":565.658,"end":588.725,"text":"因為工地放領事本來就有的政策然後透過這些政策可以讓有一些已經成豬的部分能夠有機會擁有自己的土地這個是我想是您說的這土地正義嘛但是不要把它直接連結到光電因為光電是兩件事情這段時間非常多的媒體啊跟那個社團已經出來呼籲了不要變成開貨門既然你也保證說不會開貨門就是要請你明確的去規範好不好這個"},{"start":594.243,"end":622.039,"text":"這沒有什麼好規範的啦工地放領之後又沒開了貨門民眾馬上就會看得到因為漁電共生有漁電共生本身的政策跟他的實施的申請的要件跟審查的機制嘛這兩件事情是不一樣的啊不是只有漁電共生啦就是你的工地放領以後這個農地以後是不是一定是農地農用我們贊成農地農用嘛可是不要弄成上面又去潑了光電板你要做防範嘛不是不是那你說不會部長你說不會我們就等著看"},{"start":622.379,"end":639.16,"text":"我說這是兩件事情喔我說這是兩件事情因為工地放年以後它變成私有財產的時候它如果符合光電的設置要點它這樣可以申請啊這是兩件事情喔跟現在目前所有的光電政策它不能把它攪在一起啊"},{"start":639.98,"end":664.031,"text":"那麼多的寫者專家已經是在提醒你就是說現在你工地換零是為了農地農用嘛對不對對啊那你就一定要弱死農地農用如果弄到後來很多去開了貨門一定是農地農用我們絕對不會因為 人民就會譴責你是我今天很明確的要求保定注意不要工地換零以後變成是弄到後來弄了很多光電板人民會注目而且真的這樣做的話會被譴責來最後問一個最簡單的因為謝玉鳳在趕時間啦那個廚藝的那個問題齁"},{"start":670.583,"end":674.368,"text":"除以養豬到底要會不會禁止 你在25號說本週要確定對不對 26號又說下個禮拜"},{"start":678.51,"end":705.888,"text":"到底要不要禁止我想這個禮拜的部分我們大原則大概已經確定大概因為防疫的關係我們大概會先禁用家戶廚餘但是廚藝養豬必須要有一個過渡所以我們也大方向我們會有一個落日但是這個落日要怎麼去讓這個豬農有時間去做一個轉型那這個部分因為牽扯到很多食物的執行細節所以家用的會禁止就對了"},{"start":707.289,"end":722.998,"text":"對 家用的廚藝是風險最高的是風險最高的餐廳的事業廚藝可能一段時間會引起 可是會有訂個購置就對了對 我們會有一個如果大方向是這樣子的那我們還會跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通OK 好 這是很重要的決定OK 好 謝謝謝謝謝謝張親愛委員長"}]}},{"id":"165960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859a8ae6326c00eafa6893e22039d6e8f61432a9691d58560b2d1d510c8f51747fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:08:39 - 10:14:35","影片長度":"00:05:56","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T10:08:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T10:14:35+08:00","duration":356,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.117843750000002,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.77159375000001,"end":200.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.12784375,"end":354.67596875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":2.211,"text":"好 OK 好請問現在有限時嗎"},{"start":13.26,"end":39.28,"text":"沒有現實 謝謝主席謝謝主席剛剛保留給我這個登記發言的機會我想我們辦公室從2023年地補進入立法院之後我們辦公室最關心的議題其實就是營養午餐法剛剛有非常多委員有提到日本跟韓國都已經有立法了可是我要拜託大家我們在參考其他國家的立法例的時候要把不同國家的社會環境跟民情背景一律考慮進去"},{"start":40.421,"end":64.404,"text":"不能認為其他國家有立法或是其他國家的立法樣態是怎麼做我們就全板照抄 這個會有問題怎麼說呢例如說日本是在30年前就已經立法所以他們對於國內食材的重視還有廚工 營養師 學校教師 家長各自的分工其實在當時的時空背景跟現在台灣的困境截然不同"},{"start":64.844,"end":92.925,"text":"因此我也希望在後續的主條討論當中我們不要把日本跟韓國的東西拿來全本照抄尤其是台灣現在跟其他亞洲國家一樣都面臨人工不足的困境所以如果人工不足的問題反映在團餐料理孩子們營養午餐的現場或者是反映在營養教育的現場甚至是反映在學校食農教育的現場我們都會有發現不同的"},{"start":93.986,"end":116.347,"text":"人力的困境好这是第一个那第二个因为办公室长期持续关注营养午餐议题所以我们跟营养午餐相关的团体不管是大家所熟悉的所谓团善业者或者是在做食农教育跟营养教育的民间好朋友民间团体或者是相关的学者专家还有更重要的是家长团体"},{"start":116.927,"end":132.513,"text":"當然最最最重要其實是每天在吃這些營養午餐的孩子們所以相關兒少團體我們也都有很多的討論喔在這些討論當中大家對於台灣即將要有一個營養午餐專法都表認同而且大家都樂見期待"},{"start":133.553,"end":152.297,"text":"只是在這些期待值當中每一個人會就自己的專業位置和所面臨的困境提出各自的建議跟見解例如說營養師的角色例如說午餐秘書的角色例如說食農教育教師的角色跟學校裡頭其他老師如何分工"},{"start":152.697,"end":176.017,"text":"因此我期待在後續的很多主條討論當中我們可以很務實的看見學校現在所面臨的困境第三個我要再一次提出強調跟呼籲目前在營養午餐當中我們所看到三張EQ用國產食材的補助這件事情目前是中央協助出資進行三張EQ的補助"},{"start":176.677,"end":199.868,"text":"所以讓台灣的孩子們可以在日常生活當中吃到滿滿的國產食材但是在去年12月20號通過荒謬的藍白版本才化法之後我們看見中央跟地方的財務困境可能就會展現在後續的營養午餐法討論當中到底國產食材這件事情如何在相關"},{"start":201.99,"end":216.238,"text":"大家都认同这件事情是正确前提之下往下推进但关键是钱要谁来出这个非常非常重要我希望我们可以进入实质讨论还有就是无密的费用或者是营养师的费用或者是"},{"start":217.219,"end":235.1,"text":"各式各样政策推进的费用我认为也会在后续的修法中进行讨论可能也是会有争议的地方我都希望大家可以实施讨论另外我要呼吁也提醒大家目前全台湾有十个县市的学校营养午餐是免收费免收费的意思是"},{"start":235.64,"end":259.71,"text":"不管是有地方政府還是有中央政府來承擔孩子們的餐費但總之家長跟孩子就是不用付費可是在過去不用付費的很多案例當中我們看到有優點也有缺點而後續對於營養午餐收費基準跟各地方的標準如何有一個大家的共識我認為也是之後討論營養午餐可能會有蠻多爭議的地方"},{"start":260.47,"end":276.112,"text":"還有就是也要謝謝前行政院長蘇院長在位的時候他提及協助偏鄉午餐的部分所以我們有看到設置了相關的廚房或者是相關的食材登錄平台我們希望透過偏鄉食材的補助"},{"start":276.873,"end":291.964,"text":"相關運費 經費的補助可以讓偏鄉的孩子們不要在營養午餐這件事情上有相對剝奪感可是我們看到後續平台的維運或者是相關偏鄉經費的補助要如何中央跟地方分工我認為也是後續我們在討論的時候非常重要的議題"},{"start":294.526,"end":322,"text":"還有現在不管是團善業者或者是學校的公辦公營到底如何在這些不同提供營養午餐的形式跟樣態當中讓每一個人或者是每一個被服務的人都有相關的角色跟位置並且負起相關的責任我認為也很重要還有在這次修法當中也看到有人提及在餐食當中如何納入多元文化這件事情也很重要也就是說我希望在"},{"start":323.081,"end":349.404,"text":"非常樂見相關排案修法逐條討論但是我也希望在後續的討論當中我們可以真的逐條逐條找到不管是執政黨或是在野黨之間最大的共識而不要只是貿然都保留然後送出如果我們真的可以在每一條每一條細緻的討論找到對於中央地方政府或者是對於我剛剛所說的每一個相關人都最好的立場我認為是最好"},{"start":349.945,"end":353.953,"text":"畢竟現在都已經有在野黨提案要延會到1月底以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158593fb8e7e64054bf34d6356a8ccaa37a42432a9691d58560b2d1d510c8f51747fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:00:33 - 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請中廳長 徐次長還有蕭副局長委員長我現在先請教次長炸期嚴重嗎情況蠻嚴重的我們目前打炸的司法人力足夠嗎"},{"start":37.008,"end":62.589,"text":"不能用足夠來講就是說我們的業務負擔很重好 業務負擔很重那我們來看看我們現在這個人力的分配跟工作分配上到底出了什麼問題我看到這個高等台灣高等法院這個月13號的一宗刑事判決有一個長年旅居國外的成性女子被控在回台灣的時候在區公所外拿走一把傘"},{"start":64.014,"end":83.442,"text":"結果遭檢方依竊盜罪起訴 纏送一年半法院一審判定監視器畫質太糊 根本看不清竊賊的臉而且成女所提出的手機記錄跟社會局列印資料的時間點"},{"start":85.223,"end":109.714,"text":"證明竊賊偷閃的同時他人根本還在區公所內所以或判無罪那我想請教市長你知道檢方接下來採取的行動是什麼嗎我們尊重檢察官檢方還是上訴二審啦還是上訴啦結果高院在何怡婷判決裡她再次詳細說明成女應該判無罪的理由"},{"start":110.677,"end":132.197,"text":"但也大篇幅的抨擊檢警追訴犯罪是違反比例原則在這個案子上Eason已經跟你講不可能是陳女士竊賊但Eason的公訴檢察官沒有再積極舉證他的竊盜犯行用例行公事的心態來提出上訴他也特別指出啊"},{"start":133.328,"end":154.557,"text":"就算檢察官認為有足夠的犯罪嫌疑立法者仍然賦予檢察官違罪不舉或還起訴處分的裁量權那這個案件根本違反比例原則而且還損及無辜民眾對於各自的保護你知道這位陳姓女子她要面對什麼樣的一個司法的一個爛訴的糾纏跟消耗嗎 請問市長"},{"start":159.296,"end":182.411,"text":"這個案件會拖這麼久 中間應該就是有大概就是否認那否認的話就是我告訴你連續被兩個省級法院電你導致他要在一省二省偵查不斷的委請律師光律師費幾百把傘都可以買了更何況人家還說根本沒有證據"},{"start":189.295,"end":218.912,"text":"我想點這個事情上次我在質詢我們的部長的時候我講另外一個例子給大家聽清潔隊員撿到一個廢棄的電鍋殘值32元他看到一個拾荒老婦覺得很可憐就把電鍋送給拾荒老婦請問次長這位清潔隊員最後的下場是什麼下場是什麼"},{"start":222.054,"end":242.179,"text":"被以貪污治罪條例起訴啦這個構成要件就是貪污治罪條例喔來了喔我還是要特別講啊32元的電鍋沒關係啊你要講構成要件你們的部長還講說這個他不合理啊他要再修法啦是我們有在修12條我們有這個修法計畫你知道我今天質詢問你第一個問題是什麼我知道就詐騙詐騙的人力的問題對啊"},{"start":252.793,"end":267.642,"text":"我覺得今天司法官很辛苦警察很辛苦連法官都很辛苦檢察官都很辛苦台灣詐騙爆天亮你光打詐都已經是沒有力氣了"},{"start":269.482,"end":298.67,"text":"但是我看到你們今天花很多功夫在一些我直接講我真的覺得很奇怪的案子上面在消耗司法能力啊那些法官還要進來去判這些無聊的一把傘的案子連證據都收集不齊全就隨便送到法院去一審二審都打臉還是一樣啊因為引理如意要上訴啊就一把屈公所愛的傘啊法院還說根本就不是他啊"},{"start":300.077,"end":328.659,"text":"結果人家偵查一審二審要跑來跑去 我想請問市長律師費誰出 你出嗎不是吧沒有沒有 這個律師費誰出嘛來 我想請問我們的廳長請問這個當事人律師費是誰出的當然是當事人出對啊除非我們有月券除非是他這個中低收入付一審一審就十萬塊啦去申請法兩審就二十萬啦"},{"start":330.063,"end":359.461,"text":"侦查阶段是不是要请律师出庭几十万就没了啦一把伞多少钱啊7-11买60块新伞啊可以买多少把伞要不要算一算我为什么要讲这个事情我再来讲下一件事来就像上次我质询的来请教次长太子集团什么时候进到台湾的"},{"start":361.241,"end":388.711,"text":"進來台灣多久了如果是情資的話應該是一百零八吧我直接講啦 我告訴你啦 進來台灣九年啦警管會通報你們有六年啦調查局說開始辦有四年啦辦到最後美國開始十月八號動作之後我們開始搜索 對不對約談抓人啦 對不對"},{"start":389.887,"end":408.946,"text":"在那之前 有沒有搜索 沒有有沒有約談證人 沒有有沒有今天分案調查 沒有可是我要講 45億是小錢嗎 請問次長不是嘛 這麼大的違法金流在台灣串了九年"},{"start":410.188,"end":431.033,"text":"通報就六年調查就四年包括司法警察是有掌握相關的線索掌握真好啊掌握真好既沒搜索也沒約談對不對那我前置犯罪的但是你們交保還蠻大方的抓到八成都交保那個是比例的是在這個警察裡面我跟你們講那個特助啊十五萬交保還抓到我們院長震怒咧我們院長不是震怒"},{"start":439.534,"end":465.996,"text":"打擊詐欺人員士氣但他批的是法院但結果是什麼地方法院還發新聞稿說那是訓後交保那跟法院沒有關係這都後話我要回頭講的重點在哪裡我們今天看到你今天為什麼今天整個的所謂的打詐人力的不足"},{"start":468.052,"end":494.259,"text":"我光看今天檢察官 我們的司法系統 我們檢察官剪掉我都覺得你們的 有時候辦的效率也是很好啊我印象很深刻啊有一個民眾在網路上貼了一個綠色的雞蛋說是黑心臭雞蛋 他也沒說這雞蛋是什麼喔 哪裡來的喔他也只是說他買來的喔結果呢 八個小時被約談 被抓起來他速度也很快啊"},{"start":496.158,"end":523.906,"text":"然後有貼檢察官照片對不對也是一樣啊火速啊幾個小時就抓到人啊你這些點點滴滴看起來那麼有效率的事情在這種事情上那我們看到詐欺9年無動於衷貼個綠色雞蛋8小時抓到人啊9年無動於衷你叫人民怎麼看啊"},{"start":525.097,"end":547.654,"text":"我上一次質詢我對部長光跟一個民怨第一名這句話吳宗憲講的跟他吵架吵個三分鐘我就不懂了到底為什麼我再問一次嘛TBS最新民調多少人認為台灣炸氣很嚴重百分之多少你知道嗎 次長報告委員 這個資料我沒有拿到92%你知道多少人認為不嚴重多少人 4%"},{"start":554.566,"end":583.044,"text":"幾乎全民共憤啊 全民公憤啊詐欺的言重是全民的公憤啊就為了一個民怨第一名在那邊吵架吵半天我還是拉回到今天你就看到了啊 那個捐電鍋的貪污起訴啊 捐鍋者誅詐欺者喉 太子集團九年開開心心"},{"start":584.554,"end":609.857,"text":"然後呢沒偷閃者豬因為那個陳姓女子根本沒偷然後呢詐欺者逍遙爽九年還在爭執民怨是不是第一名我們立法院到現在為止我相信次長你知道打詐的預算我們都非常支持的包括我們主席也很支持都很支持"},{"start":611.82,"end":640.818,"text":"可是今天我們看到的打詐的成效辦案的心態你關那麼多的重大詐欺案件我到現在不能理解啊就像我上次質詢我講啊如果今天說實在話如果說今天他來台三個月九個月一年喔你因為要埋線要去調查要去收證喔你說沒有關係啦那個大案子嘛"},{"start":642.162,"end":669.15,"text":"不是啊 我也問過金管會啊他事實無疑是非常大的金流耶這麼大金流串來串去 台灣串來串去至少串六年 你們知道以後串六年他進來九年 但是被我不算前面金管會通報之前那三年通報你們就六年那請問你 今天我們看到為什麼講下一代很慘啊"},{"start":670.123,"end":697.477,"text":"現在炸雞集團 抱歉啦已經在摧毀我們國家未來主人翁啦是不是啊 我們請教育部的我這樣講沒錯吧整個炸雞 包括車手炸雞集團侵入校園的問題越來越嚴重嘛 對不對對啊你今天如果沒有把炸雞車主根絕國家下一代陪在上面講得這麼沉重喔"},{"start":698.53,"end":706.788,"text":"就希望我們的政府部門真的真的拜託啦把人力精神好好用在打詐上面謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585926da813a930224d7893e22039d6e8f61432a9691d58560b2b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:05:10 - 10:08:34","影片長度":"00:03:24","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T10:05:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T10:08:34+08:00","duration":204,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.68034375,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.07346875,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.54846875000001,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.92284375000001,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.52659375000002,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":204.97784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.54,"end":26.913,"text":"非常感谢赵伟今天的安排营养午餐法在我们立法院讨论了将近六年的时间刚才罗定位委员其实说明得非常清楚无论是临近的韩国跟日本早就已经有营养午餐法"},{"start":27.634,"end":48.069,"text":"我们都知道我们台湾不比欧美国家比亚洲邻近几个国家我们台湾的孩子在营养不良的比例上事实上无论是过胖或过瘦都属营养不良我们的平均值事实上近几年都输给韩国跟日本"},{"start":48.789,"end":71.114,"text":"我们孩子几乎是有一天有将近一半以上的时间都是在校园里面生活所以无论是中午这一餐其实对于孩子来说非常的重要那也根据儿福过去的这个调查我们现在的孩子在学校吃营养午餐他给营养午餐的平均分数只有51.3分"},{"start":73.814,"end":97.054,"text":"高温之后如果不是在学校里面马上做的热食经过高温焖了之后很多菜原本热的好吃经过焖了之后就不好吃孩子不爱吃所以包括很多学校也说教职员还要兼聘很多针对于学校在安排营养菜色的部分的考核所以营养午餐法"},{"start":97.995,"end":121.772,"text":"我觉得在现阶段我们应该尽速的让学校的教职员回到学校教职的本职我们更应该要有专职的人员来去做把关怎么样去把营养午餐做得更好所以在这一块我们除了对于营养午餐法的内容之外我们更希望加入更多的食农的教育让孩子知道即便小黄瓜"},{"start":122.812,"end":148.71,"text":"红萝卜不爱吃但是我们缺乏什么我们一定要补充最重要的原因我再一次感谢教育部在这边已经有布板我想这也都是我们平常跟家长团体在互动过程沟通过程当中很多人的期待所以刚才我也听到大家说因为才化法的关系所以没有办法送那我就会认为非常遗憾才化法的部分无论是中央跟地方的事权"},{"start":149.651,"end":169.708,"text":"可以随着时间的调整我们立即去做沟通协商但是绝对不要等才化法如果所有东西都要等才化法的话那所有的事情都不用做了比如之前的儿虐发生的时候我们也是立即修地质法中央跟地方沟通把专责医师的责任"},{"start":170.589,"end":199.054,"text":"部分挪给地方去处理所以我觉得不要因为财务法的关系而是这个营养午餐法如果是各政党的共识的话我们非常期待今天就有机会把这个版本大家有共识尽速的送出去经过后续的朝野协商冷冻期的时间哪些地方需要再调整我们可以去做维护的调整我觉得更重要的是大家看在孩子吃的健康营养这才是更重要的以上"},{"start":203.963,"end":204.716,"text":"请陈培余"}]}},{"id":"165957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158597f574bb584b1d596bd93e540dfe0040e432a9691d58560b29eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:55:37 - 10:05:11","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:39:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:43:21+08:00","duration":218,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.392218750000001,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.86159375000001,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.01909375000001,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.60596875,"end":215.08596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.421,"end":31.114,"text":"好 早委跟我們各位關心這個營養午餐法的委員大家好我想就是從2020年就是我上一屆擔任立委的時候就非常重視這個學校公餐法或者營養午餐法那我自己的版本是在我一上任的時候2020年就提出那2021年我還跟民間團體"},{"start":32.836,"end":52.436,"text":"還有跟賴評委員我們共同提出民間版所以我想我自己對這個法是非常的重視我非常了解到我們一定要根本解決校園午餐的營養師人力不足還有食材品質參差不齊跟行政人員目前他們的人力負擔過重的這些結構性的問題"},{"start":54.858,"end":56.819,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":85.198,"end":102.429,"text":"但是今天我们还有一个新的议题就是上一届并没有这个才化法的冲击现在我们面对到的新的现实挑战是目前我们在场有十多个版本会整个版本中对于学校应设置的人力"},{"start":103.529,"end":126.255,"text":"設施設備等等都有不同的主張那有些版本的算起來財政負擔是更重的可是才化法我們也知道行政院的版本目前還卡關中那到底我們無法中我們應該要強行寫定中央跟地方的經費負擔比例人事標準還是"},{"start":127.659,"end":153.323,"text":"把它放在執法中那如果現在就強制寫定的話我個人是覺得有些不負責任那到底就是地方執行上是不是有可能性而且我們也知道目前的裁劃法對某些縣市地方非常的不公平那除了待會我們希望聽到教育部目前的想法之外我個人是覺得我們今天的審查"},{"start":154.504,"end":177.94,"text":"應該要達成高度共識就是只做比較原則性的立法那關於財政的部分當然它非常的重要那應該放在執法中等中央主管機關跟地方政府會商後更務實的推動所以我希望我們今天就是針對大家有共識的部分就是用一個原則性的部分來討論"},{"start":179.281,"end":198.894,"text":"那財政的部分那我主張是放在執法中而不是強制規定就是說是全部由中央或者全部由地方那如果以現在就是藍白多數通過的裁判那我就覺得應該都要是地方啊可是又對某些縣市不公平還有偏鄉的部分我們當然站在全國的教育"},{"start":199.534,"end":214.466,"text":"公平優質的角度來講又會希望中央能夠協助那這個部分我想立委是來自不同的地方縣市還有我們全國的不分區我們應該要務實的討論今天的修法的內容以上 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委員真的是點出我們目前遇到的困境那我們現在目前以現有的法令的制度之下我們只能透過各地檢署跟他們少年法庭這邊來做一個協商那可能會有筆錄共 就是說 分享 筆錄分享還有一些 就是說"},{"start":214.435,"end":238.441,"text":"或者是機器打電話溝通對不對對 然後或者是說他問完了以後我們有機會在少年法庭外面可以以證人身份在傳這些少年來作證目前怎樣就是說甚至有些法院可能他會要求把一些詢問要點然後呢我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官來做參考那當然我們剛才刑事警察局副局長也講得很清楚我們希望在移送署裡面就"},{"start":239.301,"end":258.835,"text":"他跟成年的關係要寫清楚寫得很清楚為什麼我們需要他留下來或者是跟我們合作把他寫清楚讓少年法庭的法官是有機會可以看到可能把他收容的一個必要性我想這個都是我們努力的地方但是目前法定就是這樣所以我們在努力的部分在這裡"},{"start":259.415,"end":273.236,"text":"我花這麼多時間講出這麼多困境也留一些時間給您回應就是因為我們看見這件事情一到底要不要修法你們的討論會議當中有沒有提到要不要修法第二個我們也很好奇現在相關"},{"start":274.778,"end":297.372,"text":"協助偵辦的司法警察他們的困境他們到底要聽誰的第一時間他們到底要聽誰的如果兩邊都各自有一些堅持跟看法他們其實非常非常的為難或者是我們其實在你們的報告裡面也擔心串證的問題所以我真的認為對於後續的偵辦其實是很大的困境那來下一張所以如果有這些困境來看的話"},{"start":298.473,"end":314.763,"text":"因為少事法的規定是法官就是少年法這邊如果最後要往下再追查必須要把案件移送回檢察署那對於檢察署的檢察官來說他們會不會有一個新證說既然法官都已經又移回來給我那是不是我還是要接下來處理"},{"start":315.603,"end":344.111,"text":"那難道我要去證明法官的認定是不對的嗎我要否定他嗎這個我認為對檢察官也會造成壓力所以我們辦公室研究了很久之後發現哇這個真的困境很大對第一線的警察來說是困境對檢察官來說也是甚至對法官來說也是所以因為在你們的報告裡面我全都看完了我其實還是沒有看到比較具體的後續推進建議所以可不可以再給兩位一些時間告訴我你們後續推進到底你們想要往哪裡去一"},{"start":344.491,"end":355.314,"text":"你們要不要立法院支持修法二你們在實際推動跟兩邊的合作跨部會討論當中你們目前如何協助第一線檢察官司法警察還有少年法官"},{"start":356.949,"end":375.906,"text":"我想我只就一部分跟委員報告齁我們當然希望少年齁在少年法官接手以前有機會有時間讓檢察官能夠問得到這是你的期望嘛對對對但是在於少年世界法因為主管機關是司法院對啊對啊對啊所以我就說你看你的期待跟他的現行的法規就不一樣啦來來來這邊"},{"start":377.483,"end":403.445,"text":"報告委員第一個部分我想迅速的跟委員報告三個問題都解決了那癥結點在哪裡我一定會報告那第一所謂的這個成少共患申請強制處分這個各少年法庭有不同見解的部分已經統一了全部適用少事法普通審判權的一個管轄14條"},{"start":405.046,"end":428.425,"text":"少年所在地 犯罪地都一定要受理 不可以再移轉這個不會讓檢警奔波 第一個解決了那第二個 全國各少年法庭跟檢警都定期召開解決成少共患問題的這個會議其中有一個我們兩個部分少年法庭都已經解決了 第一"},{"start":429.125,"end":441.039,"text":"成立專責收案的少年法官立即收案 立即裁定那這個時候檢察官在偵搜這個偵查這個檢警 這個共犯他"},{"start":444.442,"end":472.023,"text":"認為什麼時候要出去搜手要去逮捕那只要我們有聯繫窗口兩邊的紀錄科長是聯繫窗口甚至也可以跟法官直接連接法官依照所有下去裁定不會影響所謂的偵查就擺在那邊不會的我們都在督考這個速度這是第二點第三點也已經成立了解決方案就是所謂的證據跟情搜資料共用"},{"start":472.603,"end":483.655,"text":"那已經成立但是為什麼第三點有點困難呢因為當訊問完有溯源上面的資料那麼檢察官有沒有什麼需要這個檢察官跟法官要主動互相聯繫那都透過窗口這個有點慢最後一點我要跟委員報告就是所謂的證人訊問問題"},{"start":493.686,"end":508.037,"text":"那政人宣問問題我國在兒童人權上就最早已經被指證到113年才實施移送權程序要經上來法官審查強制處分這個是被CRC指證第40條第三項明定"},{"start":509.958,"end":514.422,"text":"還有他的這個兩個解釋這個就是所謂24號第37點跟90點說陳少共患他必須設有另外的程序去處理偵查中的兒童就18歲以下或者審理中的兒童18歲以下那現在如果要修法要訂定這個世界各國都有陳少共患的偵查檢察官偵查可以但有訂定這個CRC跟"},{"start":539.08,"end":541.422,"text":"就是要遵守CRC的這些原則 對 這些規定以上 我們現在協助三個事項憲法第八條 二十四小時還有兒前公會事實條 二十四小時強制處分居體到法庭那麼 宣問完畢 程序沒有違法我們立即可以跟檢方合作"},{"start":559.852,"end":573.755,"text":"傳票來帶去詢問這可以這個是要依照那個刑事罰款的證人程序第二我們如果收容立即開演劇讓他詢問可以第三如果收容了他馬上要借題可以這個都有一個共識那實務操作我們會去監督這以上報告至於修法確實各國我們已經開了專家"},{"start":581.738,"end":603.892,"text":"諮詢會議 各國的制度確實是檢察官為偵查主體 陳少公案都是但他是合併偵查或分開偵查都有一套這個符合兒權公約40條的特別兒童保護程序 以上說明好 謝謝你說得非常清楚我覺得你說得比報告寫得還要好耶我覺得你說得比較清楚"},{"start":604.997,"end":621.318,"text":"意思就是說我們承認困境我們看見困境承認困境然後我們確實透過跨部會會議去討論跟解決那對於還沒有辦法解決的部分要後續怎麼透過修法或是更加緊密的溝通我相信聽得出來兩位長官都說得非常清楚那我們後續也會再追蹤好不好"},{"start":621.818,"end":642.374,"text":"那我覺得今天大家共同看見這個困境代表後續大家要共同努力好那接下來我還是要快速問一下主席不好意思又花一段時間我要問一下關於邵氏法其實你們司法院也提出修法關於邵氏法的修法行政院這邊提出來了83-1修法增加三年內不再犯的門檻才可以徒消前科的規定其實我還是持續關心啦"},{"start":643.014,"end":659.059,"text":"當然塗銷前科這件事情確實是現在社會大眾對於少年犯的想像跟對於行政機關的期待因為我們希望少年犯不要淪為大人犯罪的工具人所以我們希望把這個門檻加高但是對於很多在"},{"start":660.419,"end":679.386,"text":"可能觸及犯罪第一線真實生活樣態中的兒少來說可能這件事情他們還是會繼續被他們的老大蒙騙啊被這些大人拐騙我想後續更多的宣導跟持續進入第一線讓更多的兒少知道一我們台灣已經要修法這個事情不能再被這些老大這樣亂搞第二個"},{"start":681.187,"end":702.963,"text":"對於他們來說提高這個門檻其實不是要擋住他們而是希望保護他們我認為相關的論述或者是持續的社會溝通都還是要必須拜託兩個部會持續跟教育部還有衛福部這邊持續協助好不好是好謝謝那這兩位先請回拜託我想要請一下呂健德次長我要快速跟您講一下關於出法少年的相關安置謝謝"},{"start":706.348,"end":735.721,"text":"委員早安好 次長很開心在司法法室看見你因為在司法法室就會有其他相關而少的問題第一個我們其實之前跟您討論過端安於第一線的安置機構人員他們發現人力跟資源都很不足因為現在是1比6可是我們根據統計發現現在所有的安置機構裡面被認定為難治兒的其實全台灣將近有4000多位而這個困境我相信您是知道之前我們在討論的時候有說現在的照顧人力比是1比6你之前建議我說到要1比4"},{"start":737.582,"end":753.797,"text":"我們回頭去問安置機構如果降成1比4有一個很大的問題根本沒有那麼多人要去現場工作這是第一個問題會有人力匱乏還有如果沒有分級分類其實難治而繼續塞入安置機構依然是困境如果沒有分級分類所以我之前是跟次長請教"},{"start":754.958,"end":772.912,"text":"我們可不可以在現行1比6的情況下我們加入非常自信的獎勵計劃讓願意把人力從1比6提到1比4或是做更多精進的安置機構我們給予獎勵這個部分有沒有機會包委 可以 沒問題我那個非常非常同意啦這你阿莎莉喔沒有啦 這孩子喔孩子媽要比較謹記啦你若沒有比較謹記我覺得這個國家和社會的困難我會覺得這個國家投再多錢都值得所以我覺得這一定要不僅要做而且馬上做啦"},{"start":785.561,"end":802.125,"text":"我們現在兩個重點 白天剛才說的分級分類男子兒的部分 我們現在要投入資源不是只一比四而已我們現在針對最困難的那個部分我們一方面也要給民間比較多的一個誘因另外第二個就是說整個社工這邊的加成"},{"start":804.266,"end":832.752,"text":"我們這邊我們來我想細節我們都還可以再討論那第二個問題其實我們看我們辦公室開始研究相關數字例如說澳洲以澳洲為例安置一個小孩的晚上成本大概是2572到4227台幣加拿大一個晚上至少是8737我其實沒有要跟你計較錢因為你很有誠意而且衛福部確實對兒少照顧一直很努力我只是想問我們台灣有沒有自己的精算結果有沒有機會六個月內給我相關照顧一個兒少的成本精算結果包委你這樣好不好我們現在趕快來"},{"start":834.332,"end":857.157,"text":"看你用委託研究的方式或怎麼樣或者先用示範啦或者先用示範的方式我們先踹出一個一個model出來因為台灣也會有城鄉差距的問題嘛像我們的主席服務台東其實偏鄉的小孩收容成本不見得比都會地區的小孩收容成本還要低而這個收容成本如果都讓民間安置機構去負擔他們的募款也相對很辛苦"},{"start":857.677,"end":880.557,"text":"好 謝謝次長的承諾第二個相關研究我們來推進再來最後是工作人員的養成跟待遇其實工作人員他們在學校修的都是教育類 幼教類 社工可是實際知道進到兒少安置機構才發現有非常多現場的食物困境是過去的養成課程裡面所沒有學的我知道你們衛福部有開設專業課程可是很多第一線的人告訴我們"},{"start":881.218,"end":902.79,"text":"相關專業課程可能對於現場的銜接不夠我想我們後續來檢討相關課程到底還可以怎麼協助衛福部來精進怎麼把更多民間所需的聲音甚至是我們看到現在民間也有很多機構開始自己安排課程在訓練安置人員對不對像萬八計畫他們這樣所以我想後續的安置機構課程我們也一起來做精進跟討論跟報告好不好"},{"start":904.111,"end":924.725,"text":"我們辦公室會再跟你留言我們社福社工過去這一塊的養成包括失職我覺得都不太夠那我覺得這一塊可以跟整個民間現在目前都在做安置的這個部分我們共同攜手趕快來把一些更PREDICAL的一個TRAINING PROGRAM趕快把它弄出來好 那我們辦公室就三個議題會再跟次長衛福部來約好 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委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:34:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:39:37+08:00","duration":287,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.734718750000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":284.67846875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.297,"end":0.317,"text":"發言"},{"start":5.745,"end":35.605,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天要在這個地方審查這個營養午餐法的草案之前其實跟大家先從一個脈絡開始講起我想財化法修正之後其實中央跟地方的權限還有財源的一個分工重新分工對這件事情在營養午餐的一個政策其實還是有它必要的一些重要的影響過去其實中央在補助這個地方有許多的項目其實都已經透過這個財化法把一些財源都已經交到地方的手上了"},{"start":35.945,"end":58.84,"text":"那回到營養午餐的這個例子那中央從106年開始我們每年投入約38億來鼓勵這個使用國產的三張EQ的一個食材讓我們的國產的這個比例能夠提升到99%以上那我想這項的政策其實也非常的成功的確也讓我們的農民還有讓我們的孩子都有受惠"},{"start":59.44,"end":80.089,"text":"那我想財化法修法之前其實營養午餐的部分呢其實是屬於所謂的地方自治的一個事項那理應應該是由這個縣市政府他們用自由的財源來優先編列這個預算喔那中央是透過這個一般性的補助款給予我們的這個地方的政府來做所謂的這樣子的一個加強補強的一個工作喔"},{"start":80.669,"end":97.215,"text":"因此在115年如果由地方編列預算來支應的話照理來講應該地方也要承擔一些重要的一些事權這並不是代表說中央不買單而是我們的政策就是不要讓他更不是政策的一個退縮應該這麼講"},{"start":98.795,"end":125.523,"text":"那現在剛剛也有特別有有委員有提到已經有10個縣市已經在自行補助了這個我們的營養午餐那證明這個地方在這個營養午餐的一個政策上面的確他是有能力那麼也有資源那同時也有彈性喔那這10個縣市包含像是桃園市那麼宜蘭那另外新竹縣市那包含彰化還有南投花蓮縣澎湖縣跟金門跟連江喔"},{"start":127.096,"end":144.101,"text":"那既然講到這個財源已經下放所以這個營養午餐就不應該變成是中央再一次的背利框架不然就變成這個中央把錢已經給了地方那現在專法又要要求這個中央再補一次其實就會變成所謂的雙重補償"},{"start":145.242,"end":159.723,"text":"那這個責任全責的部分也可能會錯置這絕對不是採劃法的應該有的一個精神所以這個我們的中央跟地方的角色應該要更加的清晰那當然中央負責定原則定標準"},{"start":160.123,"end":189.293,"text":"那麼在食安或者是在我們的資訊的揭露還有食材的一個教育的一個目標這是屬於全國一致性的這毋庸置疑這個是中央的責任那中央在集合資源的一個補貼那麼包含我們要照顧的就是像是弱勢偏鄉還有原民地區這些是非常需要來被大家關注的地方這才符合這個正義公平的一個投入啦才能夠把真正的資源有效的"},{"start":190.634,"end":207.408,"text":"這個放在對的一個地方喔那如果只是為了要這樣子再立一個框架讓我們的資源平均灑其實我們反而會忽略掉會弱化這些需要在就是中央補助的這樣子的一個照顧的孩子身上喔"},{"start":207.828,"end":227.864,"text":"那我想著也應該要因地制宜在專法裡頭其實應該要把所謂的這個不管是地方跟中央的一個選擇我們也要劃分清楚來決定就是讓地方擁有的這個財源他們來決定他們是不是要來提高這個營養午餐他們的品質然後或者是說要不要再來加碼補助"},{"start":229.065,"end":251.33,"text":"那我想前一陣子也有一些輿論我相信這些是比較不負責任的一種說法就是在講說營養午餐是不是會斷催啦那這種不負責任去脈絡化的一個誤導其實會讓大家有一些不安那再次重申其實這個政策沒有改變營養午餐不會斷催那只是說財源改變了"},{"start":251.91,"end":279.566,"text":"中央跟地方的權責是不是應該要更加的清楚當然中央還是一樣它有它重要的一個角色跟責任的存在包含跨部會的協作另外資訊的透明 食安的一個標準我們要針對弱勢的學生 弱勢的地區來給予適當的一個補助這個是絕對的所以我非常支持專法我們必須要保持彈性我們的資源要投對地方"},{"start":280.067,"end":284.484,"text":"這也應該是我們政策才應該要前進的一個方向以上"}]}},{"id":"165945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158592501ffe1e0e02494893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de9c2ab639a50d16805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:32:03 - 09:34:44","影片長度":"00:02:41","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:32:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:34:44+08:00","duration":161,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.56534375,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.619718750000004,"end":39.720968750000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":6.084,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":9.605,"end":28.33,"text":"好謝謝主席我認為營養午餐訂定專法有其必要那麼我看了過去的記錄雖然上街我不在立法院但是營養午餐專法最早提出來的時候當時的蔡培會委員他說他常舉一個例子就是三色豆的例子他說三色豆就是很便利也容易保存也有營養價值問題是"},{"start":30.41,"end":53.872,"text":"不只是孩子連大人也不想每天都吃三色豆所以呢過去我們教育部在推動營養午餐的改革其實有一定的進展例如說三張EQ我們的國產食材就是讓我們的孩子我們學生能夠吃到台灣自己的農產品那這一部分的推廣其實也有一定的成效很多地方政府也都很肯定所以今天這個專法的立法"},{"start":55.413,"end":83.542,"text":"其實就是要進一步的來討論我們營養午餐的改革下一步下一個階段應該要來怎麼做那我自己也有提案版本我大概看了一下今天的版本非常多大概有30到40個版本我的建議是說因為我看了教育部的建議文字其實很多也相當的具體例如就在我自己版本第13條我是支持像營養師學校學生的人數如果在550人以上而且是自辦營養午餐的話那麼就要設置一名營養師"},{"start":84.842,"end":107.581,"text":"這個部分在教育部的建議文字裡面這也是有具體的提出的所以我的建議是說如果今天真的要來進行討論的話是不是就以教育部的建議文字來當一個底板那我們可以開始來進行討論那麼剛剛也有委員也有提到說這個母法定下去了還是要給他彈性我也相當的支持所以我比較認為說我們這一個營養午餐專法的訂定"},{"start":111.924,"end":126.614,"text":"應當是一個原則性的例如說過去我們教育部在補助地方政府的營養午餐這個我們是補助全國的弱勢國中小是21億但是地方縣市政府其實已經有10個縣市是全面的免費的營養午餐了"},{"start":126.994,"end":152.014,"text":"所以那其他的縣市狀況跟這十個縣市的狀況所需要的補助就會不大一樣例如說過去我們中央在這個偏鄉營養午餐補助15億針對偏鄉的儲供另外再補助4.2億那偏鄉跟都會區的需求也都會不一樣所以我是支持要給予一個彈性那我認為今天的這個立法應該要討論是比較原則性的方向那這樣其中就是很具體的"},{"start":152.554,"end":159.849,"text":"各個縣市因為大家狀況不大一樣究竟要怎麼樣來訂定其實可以放下一個階段的執法裡面來進行討論以上是我的意見 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585964b237c4c5143013893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de0fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:26:13 - 09:31:57","影片長度":"00:05:44","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:26:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:31:57+08:00","duration":344,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.578468750000001,"end":97.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.04096875,"end":342.34034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.616,"end":24.21,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉我想我們今天還是要肯定昭偉把這個案子排進來但是我想我今天站在這個地方因為我是從第九屆就開始當立委所以很多的歷史 很多的責任我想我還是要這邊做一個澄清來釐清這個責任從第九屆就開始討論第十屆的進度是零"},{"start":25.091,"end":42.563,"text":"然後第11屆就是各位就是我們這一屆前教育部剩次林明玉表示專法最快就會在新會期就會送進立法院還說名稱就是高級中等以下學校午餐級飲食教育條例重點包括非常的多然後呢"},{"start":43.283,"end":60.168,"text":"期间立法院也开了公听会进行了询答给教育部这么容偿的时间若不是赵伟今天排案我不知道拖到什么时候所以说院版难产的原因为什么没有院版只有建议版本我们要审吗当然我必须要说这不能怪"},{"start":60.908,"end":87.06,"text":"部长这个东西呢已经有些东西送到院对不对部长没错吧送到院了但是院一直没有核定下来以至于这个部分但是至于有些委员的不但说这是因为才化法的关系不好意思我还是要厘清一下113年5月本席召开学校午餐法治化公听会的时候那时候的教育部的林明玉次长有出席那时候有才化法吗没有"},{"start":87.78,"end":108.116,"text":"還有呢113年又過了8個月也就在今年3月張廖次長被詢學校營養午餐專法我還是沒有看到教育部的版本行政院的版本為什麼行政院不將院版送過來所以說呢那個時候也沒有所謂的才化法但是還是導不出來而且呢教育部第9屆的時候在108年歷史夠久了4月3號公告草案"},{"start":113.2,"end":139.245,"text":"而且呢同年8月将草案送到政院退回来之后的修订为就是学校午餐及饮食教育条例那今天又改成中等高中高级中学以下变过来变过去然后第十届四年当中没有才化法但是营养午餐的专法也还是没有送过来所以这绝对不是才化法的问题113年3月又送进了行政院来做审议也一年多了"},{"start":139.685,"end":168.525,"text":"行政院督导的政委对不起换了又换已经从零万一换到史哲又换到爸谁去了有才化法吗仍然没有所以呢我非常支持营养午餐赶快的立法但是呢每一次都要说才化法说实在的如果部长才化法最新的版本只要对我们各县市有利绝对全员支持我都愿意背书但是就诚如刚刚所提到的没有数字如果有数字的话请方便来做讨论"},{"start":169.045,"end":189.427,"text":"数字非常的重要因为各县市所分担的比例不一样我们怎么知道我们所讨论的中央要多少钱地方多少钱今天讨论了老半天到时候地方不认账怎么办所以地方的给财化法新版财化法的数字一定要出来我们才有办法那现在行政院已经提出了新版了"},{"start":189.747,"end":212.224,"text":"表示已经有数字在手上了释放出来给我们看否则我们今天讨论白饭对不对把数字释放出来给我们看我们才有办法知道怎么全责怎么样做一个分配而且说实在的要让午餐品质好一定要有专业人员来提供专业的管理这点我们完全相信我们都知道天下没有白吃的午餐但是政府愿意投入多少的资源"},{"start":213.004,"end":230.371,"text":"我知道我还是不断提及你们都已经淡忘的黎明运次长他特别提到了每年补助学校大概273位营养师1131名雏公我都还记得很清楚225条生熟食运输路线还有提高偏乡午餐达到62元的强化措施"},{"start":232.592,"end":242.755,"text":"所以說呢才化粉的數字一出來到底一年補助我們地方有關的午餐到底有多少然後呢將來實施之後中央跟地方的權責分配會怎麼樣我們地方還沒有辦法拿到錢一句話數字拿出來還有呢包括本這個委員的一個版本當中的營養師廚工等等"},{"start":252.697,"end":280.951,"text":"我们党下足条都会看出来但是呢我还是强调很多时候你把法规定的非常的严谨但是呢总有一些的弹性像一些偏远地区啊有很多学生他们自己本身就已经有非常重视食农教育供应给孩子的都是他们旁边无毒的这个农田所种的那这样符合中央所设定的一个法规吗像美农的农度国小还有一些虽然不是太偏远但是他们有他们弹性的说法"},{"start":281.391,"end":306.309,"text":"万一你这个专法定完之后有没有给予这些有更多特色的地方有没有办法让这些偏远愿意自设厨房的学校来做这个公餐的计划还是这样的法规一进来之后反而打乱所以我还是最后强调对于有能力自办重视食农教育的办得很好的学校政府给的奖励不足然后绝不能反而让这些表现的好学校处于不利的状况"},{"start":306.829,"end":328.9,"text":"总而言之今天我还是认为周围能够把它排进来我们开工但是呢可以慢慢审因为太多的状况我们可以再慢慢等到这个院板进来之后再来但是呢如果说文字没有超越太多我们可以用这个审查的方法但是呢还是责请第九届到第十一届的我不想到的"},{"start":329.56,"end":342.116,"text":"很多人到第12届第3届的还要讨论这个营养午餐法那这样真的是我们太对不起针对于这件事情大家真的希望能够把这个午餐法制化的这一群关心的一个朋友以上"}]}},{"id":"165943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859256c7e1eeeb4ba0c893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de0d8c7324e0a01dc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:25:35 - 09:26:07","影片長度":"00:00:32","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:25:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:26:07+08:00","duration":32,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":31.772843750000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":22.138,"text":"加重罰則而且還設置了豬肉儀表板確保校園肉品的安全學校飲食的訂定需要針對不同的地區及學校教育的狀況來訂定及考量本次的午餐專法有很多地方是需要中央教育部跟地方討論的事項目前並沒有很完整充分的討論"},{"start":22.938,"end":30.348,"text":"所以希望可以讓教育部跟地方政府有完全溝通完善溝通的時間跟機會取得了共識之後我們再來討論 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158592e146ee345aec966893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de9b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:20:54 - 09:25:29","影片長度":"00:04:35","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:20:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:25:29+08:00","duration":275,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.91659375,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.15034375,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.67159375000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.86096875000001,"end":165.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.65909375,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.13846875000002,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.38721875000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.69846875000002,"end":276.27471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.265,"end":33.439,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我想今天來審這個營養午餐法那本席首先還是要強調就是說培養國民從小有這個良好的飲食習慣珍惜食物的概念認識台灣在地的飲食文化這絕對是國家有必要要積極投資的重要的教育的方針尤其是要讓學生吃得飽要吃得好要吃得健康"},{"start":34.499,"end":63.642,"text":"這對成長期的孩子也是非常重要再加上前陣子經歷非洲豬瘟的危機積極教育孩子減少剩食剩下的食物更為重要回到最根本的裁員問題在野黨把裁劃法修得亂七八糟原本教育部有補助地方辦理營養午餐的業務裁劃法一修中央很多錢劃分到地方去這一次營養午餐專法很多版本"},{"start":63.942,"end":83.331,"text":"都要求更多的細節要中央去補助那這制定下去恐怕會讓中央加碼這個本來約74億的甚至還要更多那況且上次修正財化法後來又算出說某些在黨執政的縣市錢會拿的比之前更少"},{"start":84.071,"end":111.739,"text":"那所以現在還要再修啦那我想又有南部縣市的裁員又大幅的減少那行政院提出的版本又讓各縣市的這個款項又要相對提高那前兩天又被藍白封殺總的來說這個裁劃法的修正案都還沒有一個正確的方向明確的方向那中央跟地方未來的分工也這個不明白狀況不明的情況之下"},{"start":112.739,"end":141.453,"text":"我覺得現在要來審查這個跟中央補助經費高度相關的法案實在是很難有很細緻很完整的討論所以我想我們教文委員會真的是八個委員會最認真的委會我敢這樣講那我們的審查法案都非常的細心不粗糙所以我們請各位教文的同事我們要審慎來思考營養午餐法是不分朝野都很希望去推動的"},{"start":142.253,"end":170.018,"text":"那跟學生又是息息相關的法案喔那草野的委員也都有提案那我覺得也不需要在這裡爭工搶勞所以本席還是希望這個專法能夠專注在討論原則性的規範那如果條文中有涉及名列各項補助或者是中央地方財務跟事權這個劃分的那我覺得就要留待才化法有個定案之後我們再來處理這件事情以上"},{"start":177.767,"end":178.769,"text":"好請陳秀寶委員發言"},{"start":184.055,"end":210.306,"text":"謝謝主席今天關於這個營養午餐法首先我們要表達我們都非常的關心學生在校用餐的這個品質營養以及食材的來源本期從上一屆就提出本期的版本學校飲食法所以也請不要曲解民進黨委員對提升學校飲食品質的這個決心但是本次的午餐專法呢最重要涉及的經費以及地方自治的事項目前又因為才化法的問題"},{"start":211.186,"end":227.478,"text":"中央及地方的裁員分配目前未定導致每年應該要協助補助的這個經費及事權還沒有很明確那五川專法呢又跟經費的補助事項是息息相關的評估這出來新增的這個相關的經費呢都應該要讓"},{"start":228.499,"end":252.862,"text":"教育部跟地方政府能够重新讨论能够很慎重的去讨论这个相关事权的分配避免修法的设计与财政分配制度脱节另外依据地方自治弹性的架构来看我们对于专法中名列的各项补助或地方财政的分担这个也缺乏共识如果我们强硬的将各项补助"},{"start":253.803,"end":276.046,"text":"经费以人员的这个分配明定路法将会使地方政府在地方自治中失去分配及调整的这个弹性这也不尊重不同县市的实际的需求目前在共产的食物中我们透过午餐契约的方式要求厂商必须提供国产在地具三张EQ的产品那也明定了相关的法则"}]}},{"id":"165941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585907e8bab4f3eef868893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de49826321c0b4a3205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:14:23 - 09:20:48","影片長度":"00:06:25","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:14:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:20:48+08:00","duration":385,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.76471875,"end":383.22846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.991,"end":22.432,"text":"謝謝趙偉還有部長還有與會所有的同仁今天先謝謝趙偉排審學校營養午餐專法這部專法其實是對於我們整個學校對我們的孩子的營養午餐家長老師都高度關注的一部法事實上因為我第十屆才進來"},{"start":23.473,"end":48.911,"text":"从第十届到十一届现在我们都非常关注但后来我从柯子珍口中知道其实第九届就已经开始了甚至于会不会更早我不知道但是总之这是一步大家认为应该要赶快来把这个学校这个学校午餐专法这个部分赶快来处理起来所以谢谢我们召委今天排不过对于到现在为止我们行政院的版本还没有送进立法院"},{"start":49.451,"end":71.44,"text":"我想我們本席是予以嚴厲的譴責因為這不是去年前年大家才開始關注了這麼長的時間教育部從108年就承諾要提出營養午餐專法那此後每一年大家都有提但這個承諾看起來是年年跳票而且這個年年跳票不只是教育部年年跳票我看這麼多個部長"},{"start":72.981,"end":98.824,"text":"大家好像也沒人很認真的趕快把這個專法提出來本身認為行政院版如果沒有提出來會導致今天我們如果進行逐條審查就是只能以教育部的建議條做為基準我們如果以教育部的建議條我們事實上就是教育部昨天也來溝通就是說是草案但我必須要講這個草案還真草率到昨天其實都還沒有完成"},{"start":99.304,"end":117.477,"text":"然後呢今天呢就要把這個草案拿出來我們要用這個草案來當這個基準來審查那這樣的一個審查其實有很大的部分其實我想這個就是張耀堅次長也在他也非常清楚這是會涉及地方縣市政府的這個權責還有我們財政相關的條文那這些都沒有辦法進行實質的討論例如"},{"start":120.359,"end":137.746,"text":"本席提案的第7條第11條教育部建議條文在第13條14條涉及各學校營養師聘任的人數以及教師兼任執密這個相關的獎勵啦儲工或儲物人員的聘用等等這些人事上的經費到底應該誰來負責中央負責還是地方負責又應該要怎麼去分工"},{"start":142.048,"end":162.563,"text":"那如果完全今天要縣市來負責各縣市的這個財政能力都相當嗎顯然是不一所以應該怎麼去分配我們沒有一個很明確在裡面那當然剛才還提到那本席提案的第7條第11條那其實也是這個教育部現在看到13條14條那我也在想今天"},{"start":163.543,"end":178.612,"text":"三十幾個本本這麼多條文到底要怎麼去整合那再來本市認為進入足條審查之前必須要請教育部先說明從108年開始到現在到底我們有沒有開始跟縣市政府針對午餐專法開過會"},{"start":179.713,"end":198.27,"text":"如果有开过开过多少次那所涉及刚刚提到的相关权责条文还有经费负担执行的状况等等哦各县市的想法是什么那有共同数的也就变罢但是今天有这个想法不一的时候那一些点我们现在应该要怎么去调整哦除非啊哦"},{"start":198.61,"end":213.693,"text":"除非其實教育部假設今天承諾說我們審查完畢後所有產生可能的經費通通都是中央負擔那當然就不會有中央跟地方的問題也不會有地方有一些限制個別自然難行的狀況那此外還有一個非常重要的點"},{"start":214.634,"end":229.374,"text":"今天教育部提出的建議法案名稱是高級中等以下學校午餐級飲食教育條例那我想要請教教育部等一下也要在審查之前也必須說清楚教育部的立場是要把高中也納入午餐專法規範嗎"},{"start":231.397,"end":249.845,"text":"那根据教育部的建议条文第七条第二项又特别提到高级中等学校供应学生午餐德经学校午餐供应会或相关会议决议改由其他方式办理其实这就等于是在说高中的营养午餐要怎么做"},{"start":250.365,"end":279.084,"text":"各校都可以自行来决定那我想前阵子也有一些高中对于营养午餐这个做法看法不一引起很大的争执我想我们也必须要纳入今天的考虑那如果是这样的话为什么我们的法条名称还要用高级中等以下学校那就是部长如果我们的法案的名称就是扩及到高中我们也要用一样的专法去做一个规范的话恐怕全部的高中生部长"},{"start":279.784,"end":295.315,"text":"不是只有在928教室要去抗議學生可能都要去抗議這裡要考量進去這是本席替教育部去想到這個地方所以再來最重要一點了今天我們如果要依照教育部建議的文字來進入主條討論所謂的草案"},{"start":297.196,"end":327.039,"text":"那当然如果说最后一定要这样那我们待会大家再来讨论可是呢教育部是不是能够明确的承诺今天教育部提出的建议条文就是未来行政院不会有任何的意见也跟行政院的院版会是一致的那要不然今天我们在这里花很多的时间下去讨论那最后呢布板送到院版去院版其实有意见或者是我们今天讨论的这个共识以后结果行政院的版本出来是不一的那请教一下这个行政院的意见"},{"start":327.059,"end":328.26,"text":"第一个营养五层专法裁员经费哦"},{"start":346.912,"end":372.347,"text":"那是否由中央全部買單那如果是要地方政府來負擔或分擔那到底溝通了沒有那怎麼負擔怎麼分擔我覺得必須說清楚第二個就是非常重要的高中以下的學校營養午餐尤其高中這塊是不是納入涵蓋在我們這次營養午餐專法內那最後一定要請這個部裡面要說清楚講明白今天布版的草案因為行政院的院版還沒有出來"},{"start":372.927,"end":382.623,"text":"到時候是會一致嗎不要我們大家在這審完以後呢院版出來如果有很大的不同那麼這個時候我們今天的審查其實流於心事沒有必要以上 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政院也是拍板定案說四年預計投入76億的在預防二哨犯罪方案裡面我相信警政署作為方案的幕僚機關那我認為副局長應該非常清楚知道整個方案的具體的措施跟行動策略"},{"start":220.97,"end":235.229,"text":"可是在一二級的預防目標下就有規劃行動方案是針對於幫派組織吸收少年的具體措施但我非常好奇的是既然有這樣的工具那到底足不足夠是否可以請我們的副局長"},{"start":236.15,"end":265.149,"text":"跟警政署这边提供我目前这些具体的实际成效因为我现在目前没有看到你们部县的调查成效是什么明策略管的情形是怎么样组织犯罪的一个防治的条例定罪的状况是什么还有追踪辅导成效再麻烦把这些相关数据提供给我为什么要这样子提呢就是想来请教副局长就是什么是虚保护性如何调查跟评估"},{"start":266.671,"end":291.971,"text":"區域保護站在對兒少的保護這一部分這是司法的一個宗旨那站在警察是在執法尤其在打詐這一部分警察的主責是在試詐所以最近你可以從電視來看到警察非常多的一個宣導那也有一定的成效那對兒少的保護這一部分我們是這時候也是跟"},{"start":293.112,"end":313.842,"text":"教育部跟各級的學校共同來努力部長我這樣問我不是在考試或說教只是針對少年輔導的處遇的問題恐怕都來自我們的少事法的第三條第二項的條文大家是不是對這個條文的理解跟判斷落差而來"},{"start":314.864,"end":327.891,"text":"為什麼這樣提因為上週五出爐的監察院的報告明確指出正因為檢警方跟少府會過度拘泥於曝險行為的一個定義的法條文字因為這邊有寫一個無證當理由經常"},{"start":331.273,"end":345.663,"text":"因為這個經常這個兩者是少府會認為這是單一事件他沒有調閱其他的資料的時候就會覺得沒有經常所以就不認為是需要保護性因為他的第二項很明確的講是說你看到這一項裡邊的"},{"start":346.944,"end":369.749,"text":"第二款的提出來的這些相關的那要依少年的性格跟成長經驗那你就要去各方去調閱相關比如需要各個單位來提供這樣的資料所以就很容易忽略那因為這樣子忽略他的高風險的徵兆就會錯失我覺得及早介入輔導的一個機會那我就來續問為什麼這樣談因為這個"},{"start":375.697,"end":394.184,"text":"這張圖我已經拿來問第三次了每次警政署的說法都不同第一次拿出來的時候我順便問了少府會的人力是否充足那署長說不夠可是當天的專案報告的書面報告是寫充足的第二次拿出來的時候強調缺乏公案合作的機率"},{"start":395.365,"end":410.624,"text":"我當時也以持有微量三、四級毒品的行為當成案例希望檢證署能夠能夠延商跟相關機關能夠延商修正可是這次就沒有收到任何的回覆的資料給我了"},{"start":411.38,"end":430.918,"text":"那這次剛好我們的監察院調查報告又出來指出警方缺乏對曝險行為的統一收案標準也欠缺需保護性的評估標準我認為這就是關鍵除了會直接影響思安網的服務轉弦的系統外同樣也是今天陳紹公案偵辦"},{"start":432.219,"end":453.847,"text":"困境的核心所在所以在這邊我要提出三點請我覺得警政署這邊要來處理的是那請警政署提供預防少年兒少犯罪方案的具體措施的成效並與法務部共同來針對幫派吸收少年犯罪的防治機制來研擬更積極的策略這次不要"},{"start":455.069,"end":471.548,"text":"今天講了然後我們後來沒有收到這相關的資料第二警警政署競速建立少婦會我們希望要有個標準化的風險評估工具才可以跟其他的相關單位去收整你要的東西否則就很容易不被認為經常"},{"start":472.649,"end":502.232,"text":"所以单一事件而错失了及早介入的所以同一个案的服务流程跟资料共享机制这个希望你们要建立来加强教育训练跟我们的服务敏感度来充实我们的辅导量能跟专业性最后就是请警政署能够重新的检讨少五会的组织的工作内容以及其他网络单位共案的合作方式那我不知道副局长这个在两周内可以提出书面回复吗"},{"start":503.057,"end":503.664,"text":"可以好 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Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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廳長在這裡喔你們也循程序花了三個月的時間也循公告施行然後也送到立法院就是黃國昌近乎二讀立法院零討論直接表決的法院組織法"},{"start":205.012,"end":229.027,"text":"立法院應當在委員會好好審查有任何意見修入法裡面而不是立法院不討論直接坐直升機坐特快車還逼你們三個月上路然後你們之後依法律的授權來訂定實施辦法他現在反而要來審查實施辦法了我說這就是該審的不審不該審的"},{"start":231.553,"end":243.455,"text":"不只要審而且還要鉅細靡遺的為難你們廷長你有看過這種狀況嗎司法行政被凌駕成這樣就這個部分你們有什麼防範"},{"start":247.919,"end":272.561,"text":"報告委員是就是說因為修正法律是立法院的職權所以在法院組織法有關公開播送的這個條文修正通過那當然司法院必須要遵照這個法律來做後續的這個執行的程序所以有關執行的程序的部分因為我們有預見到其實很多的法律專家都提出說一旦"},{"start":273.502,"end":299.733,"text":"法庭公開播送之後會有一些影響到審判公正的疑慮還有人權的疑慮包括訴訟參與者的隱私權的一些相關的疑慮所以我們也在法律院組織法的一個授權的範圍內要去訂立一個適當的公播方式可以來避免這樣子一個疑慮讓這個公播能夠順利的上路達到他原本希望達到的"},{"start":299.773,"end":321.603,"text":"公播達到透明公開的效用而不是造成輿論攻省的負面效益嘛你們在做的就是這個播放嘛是的所以我們會在才會定義這個實施辦法那這個辦法裡頭有關公播的時程也是認為說因為公播剛上路加上國外有一些國家我們都參照國際的經驗嘛避免特寫對不對然後國民法官不准拍對不對好關鍵在下一頁下一頁喔在下一頁"},{"start":329.775,"end":348.825,"text":"有關法庭直播的Live或是Delay Live哪裡有抵犯法律呢在朝野協商的時候黃國昌兩度一次在黨團協商一次在朝野協商他都說公開播送可以用Live也有Delay Live啊 他自己說的"},{"start":350.001,"end":370.815,"text":"羅志祥委員代表國民黨團在協商的時候他也說啊延遲直播delay 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life嘛所以現在轄院報復牽怒於你們不過是他們自己自己打臉自己然後"},{"start":401.485,"end":422.011,"text":"拉不下臉下不了台所以說呢夏業這是我們上週討論的主題也就是說法院組織法草率的禁服惡毒通過立法院該審而不審那現在要把手伸到這個實施辦法要退回要求更正那他下一步要做的事情是什麼呢夏業"},{"start":423.467,"end":443.877,"text":"非常嚴重緊急事態我也跟朝委報告現在民眾黨提出來的司法院組織法17條修正還有增訂17條之一就是公然把立法院的審查權政治的黑手伸到司法院的院會裡面去了"},{"start":446.155,"end":463.115,"text":"17條是把組織的部分完全用政治力來把持17條之一的增訂是把所有你們司法院院會會議規則審定的行政命令強制要求送到立法院可以進行變更也就是立法院要來審司法院的內規簡單講"},{"start":465.23,"end":486.887,"text":"太可怕了立法院可以大到這樣嗎今天把手伸到司法院的院會明天就把手伸到行政院的院會今天把手要求司法院院會的組成要達到國民黨對不起這是民眾黨要的雖然國民黨民眾黨是一個黨了啦"},{"start":488.616,"end":506.988,"text":"達到這種藍白要的透過組織惡意的修法還要讓這些獨立審判的法官被迫要承擔政治責任因為把首長制改成合一制然後把這些法官變成這個司法院院會的當然成員這太可怕了"},{"start":510.58,"end":535.189,"text":"今天他立法院這樣對於司法院要求司法院院會的組成明天就要求行政院院會的組成今天要求司法院院會通過的所有的法律你們的執法相關的規範一定要強制送立法院來審查明天就要求行政院院會卓院長通過的任何議案都要先送立法院否則你行政院院會不能開或是開不成"},{"start":536.517,"end":557.51,"text":"這太可怕了所以針對司法院組織法第17條以立法權侵害行政權又是違憲了侵犯權力分立的原則跟制衡而且把首長制改成合一制就侵犯了司法院院長的權責以及他要求增加法官代表成為司法院院會的當然成員"},{"start":559.531,"end":570.419,"text":"让受监督者享有司法的行政权法官某种程度也被迫要承担政治决策的责任针对这17条来听一下你觉得是不是紧急事态"},{"start":572.303,"end":598.645,"text":"謝謝委員因為司法院確實因為院長是總統提名立法院同意的所以他是一個首長制他必須要對司法院的政治來負責政策的成敗負責對要負政策政治責任是院長我們看到這次的提案確實是有就等同是把司法院的院會變成一個合議機關那由合議的方式來做成司法院的一些重要的政策那本來司法院院會只是一個諮詢機關而已那變成合議機關"},{"start":601.175,"end":627.193,"text":"以後他新天來指名要法官代表成為院會成員哪一天他可能又加碼變成說這些法官代表成為司法院院會列席人員成員必須受立法院同意搞不好也會這樣對不對因為我們現在法官的職責憲法上的權利做審判那並不是對國家的政策承擔負責而且法官是終身子也不能夠因為政治的懲罰而下台"},{"start":627.853,"end":643.025,"text":"沒有錯所以說司法院組織法17條他要破壞司法院院會的組成又危險政治的黑手不演了深入司法行政而下一個要跟您探討的是17條之一的修正"},{"start":644.273,"end":668.465,"text":"這就是法庭直播黃國昌自己在委員會快轉然後草率通過之後現在呢又把守該審的法案不審現在要審你們的實事辦法那他現在實隨之謂 轄院報復再加一以後所有的司法院所有的命令規章你們的權利立法院都要越組帶跑了"},{"start":670.714,"end":693.762,"text":"然後就立法院職權行使法62條的規範如果任何單位的執法有抵觸母法才可以退回才可以要求你們更正但不是立法院自己來改所以說該審的不審法案不審委員會不開會不討論然後現在要連你們的行政命令都要管來就這個17條之一的增修"},{"start":699.366,"end":705.964,"text":"以後你們真的我真的不知道這個緊急事態怎麼解決喊話一下吧 廳長"},{"start":707.913,"end":732.726,"text":"其實司法院會通過很多細節性的 一般性的一些不管是職權命令 或者是經由國會授權的授權命令那這些命令都是比較一般性 而且有時候是有時有時效性的那如果說這些授權命令全部要送立法院 進行更正目前是要由立法院被查被查改審查 而且退回便直接改"},{"start":733.186,"end":760.116,"text":"那如果立法院进行把内容变更的话那就会变成说是由立法院替司法院定立法规命令但是由这个司法院来做执行那这可能会造成全责不分的情况那我们认为这是违反宪法的权利分立而且立法院该审的不审自己法案委员会不审直接表决然后来管这些执法法律授权的执法实施办法的规定"},{"start":761.056,"end":776.199,"text":"這真的是全套鬼揍海料料而且全部本末倒置啊所以你們現在針對這個惡法因為剛排入這個議程你們要全力的去遊說除了要遊說我們各黨的委員我還是相信啊"},{"start":777.185,"end":805.97,"text":"在野的委員應該還是有部分有良知的吧難道大家都要被黃國昌這樣子來出賣這樣子來操弄作為黃國昌轄院報復司法的棋子嗎你們要強力來遊說所有不分黨派的立委因為捍衛憲法不是只有執政黨的事是所有跨黨派委員的事以及你們也要向法界發聲向社會發聲司法院不能再被霸凌了"},{"start":806.83,"end":829.539,"text":"司法院不能再這樣 以後司法院院會 立法院來管如果司法院低頭了未來十帥之位 行政院院會就是下一個考試院院會就是下一個立法院再大 也不能比憲法大真的而且我要批判 立法院該審的不審不該審的要拿來審"},{"start":831.44,"end":847.71,"text":"為什麼要禁賦二讀我也很擔心司法院組織法就像當初法庭直播的法院組織法一樣禁賦二讀委員會沒有辦法討論我們這麼專業的召委莊瑞雄法律專家他沒有辦法來發表他的意見因為從法案提出到最後做特快車只有表決意圖"},{"start":849.833,"end":872.729,"text":"執政黨少數黨連發聲論述的機會都沒有所以趕快向社會發聲尋求法界所有人員的力量來遊說這些讓立法院能夠三思後行來您補充謝謝委員 事實上包括這次提案的理由裡頭有提到美國的這個US code他完全複解了"},{"start":874.25,"end":898.72,"text":"对对因为我们有去检索美国的制度而且美国国会也没有权利去直接修改最高法院所定义规则的内容对他充其量也只能将他退回而不能够进行修改所以这部分的可能是误解了这个国外的规定所以我们司法法制委会很天才有留学德国的汪小林委员但是却把德国的制度乱讲一通有留学德国的"},{"start":900.433,"end":908.783,"text":"黃國昌主席 對不起有留學美國的黃國昌主席卻對美國的憲政運作國會運作這麼的狀況外"},{"start":913.493,"end":929.178,"text":"然後 還拿 我也看了他的修法理由把美國國會只有否決權 而且那是延遲宣告的權利不是可以直接拿來立法院 來審司法院的內規真的是流選美國 流到哪裡去了 美國的制度都不懂"},{"start":935.754,"end":952.267,"text":"所以我再一次今天我緊急事態來做這個質詢我也相信我們召委會全力來協助我們一起來捍衛立法院不要再霸凌其他的憲政機關了立法院再大也不能讓黃國昌這樣惡搞不好意思超過時間謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"165940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158597f1aa436386b55acbd93e540dfe0040e35840082273422dea5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:16:12 - 09:18:31","影片長度":"00:02:19","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝主席我想這幾年大家都非常清楚的知道說我們其實越來越多青山的活動不管是登山健行或者是露營其實都已經是很多人週末或者是休憩的一個重要的選擇其實在鼓勵大家參與自然活動的時候我們也必須要去思考一下到底開放的程度要多少"},{"start":31.4,"end":57.07,"text":"不應該是一刀切開放或不開放而是我們應該有個更科學化的方式來去評量說到底這個地方的承載量到底是多少所以呢因為有了這個承載量的制度之後我們的主管機關才能夠依法去公告人流或車流的上限必要的時候可以劃設管制區避免生態應過度的使用而無法恢復讓開放不是破壞而是永續"},{"start":57.85,"end":73.531,"text":"所以在這次的修法裡面我提出了第一點就是把這個制度納入那第二個還有就是不當行為我想大家也都有看過一些影片有人會在這些地區森林的地區去修器的時候也餵食了野生動物"},{"start":74.292,"end":89.249,"text":"也喂食了游荡犬猫那其实呢这些都会改变这个这些动物的觅食习性那一旦动物习惯人为喂食的时候呢也会造成族群的异常疾病的传播"},{"start":90.37,"end":119.236,"text":"那所以呢这个游荡犬猫呢甚至也会因为族群扩张过快而捕食或是这个捕猎这个野生动物那也破坏了棲地危害了整体的生态环境所以这一次的修法里面呢我们也明定了禁止喂食野生动物和游荡犬猫会提供让这个大家在执法的时候呢提供一个更清楚的执法依据所以我要强调是说我们希望民众青山但是我们还是要去考量到"},{"start":119.936,"end":136.768,"text":"10年後20年後我們的森林依然是如此的美麗然後我們的生態多樣性依然是存在在我們的森林裡所以我希望大家可以來支持就是乘載量管制以及加上我們禁止餵食遊蕩犬貓跟野生動物讓我們的森林開放跟永續可以並行謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165939","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165939","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859a54971c29b50d08dbd93e540dfe0040e35840082273422deb36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:14:25 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(僅詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:14:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:16:08+08:00","duration":103,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.41221875000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":104.48721875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.409,"end":24.691,"text":"好 山區油氣的活動近年來快速的成長常出現植被被踐踏土壤沖石 垃圾遺留違規的露營還有露宿這一個部分的亂停車等情形造成森林生態的整個破壞與環境的品質下降"},{"start":25.291,"end":42.18,"text":"部分地區甚至出現難以回復的環境退化跡象已影響了公共利益還有長期的一個保育目標現行的制度主要針對了自然保護區森林遊樂區定有較完整的管理規範但對於其他外呢"},{"start":42.7,"end":70.23,"text":"公有国有的林地油气压力等行为的一个管制尚缺明确的一个法源以及工具我们形成了一个管理的一个疏失跟落差因此本草案最主要的目的是建立更完整的森林油气的管理架构管理聚在这一次森林法第二条第17条之二第56条及第三条的条文修正草案除配合行政院的组织改造将森林"},{"start":71.522,"end":96.328,"text":"法的一個中央主管機關名稱由我們的修正為農業部之外呢另一方面新增了強化對國有公有的林地不當油氣的一個行為還有管制的一個法則以維護森林生態的一個環境兼顧民眾青山的權益謝謝趙偉在今天排審森林法的一個草案"},{"start":97.088,"end":102.505,"text":"希望可以早日完成健全我國的森林保育以及油氣的管理法則以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165938","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165938","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158594e712107fe8a0313bd93e540dfe0040e35840082273422ded1d510c8f51747fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:12:06 - 09:14:22","影片長度":"00:02:16","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： 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大家早安我在這邊本席針對這次森林法的修法做提案說明森林是我國非常重要的自然資產"},{"start":27.455,"end":44.28,"text":"也是許多民眾親近山林體驗自然的重要公共空間但是隨著我們的山林解禁跟戶外活動的興盛部分的國有與公有鄰居尤其行為太集中"},{"start":45.08,"end":71.845,"text":"已出現明顯的生態壓力研究也證實過度油氣將降低植坯覆蓋加劇土壤的硬化及充實讓自然環境面臨退化甚至不可逆的傷害那本席也處理過很多的油氣入山衝突像是大武哈油溪丹大林道等等為了讓民眾能夠永續的親近山林"},{"start":72.406,"end":79.486,"text":"让森林生态得以持续健康本席修法增订森林法第17条之二"},{"start":79.949,"end":104.498,"text":"及修正第56條之三主要的目的是在於回應近年國有公有林地因為油氣活動的快速成長所造成的環境衝擊有必要在法律層級明確的授權主管機關得採取管制措施以維護森林永續所以本席在森林法中新增了第17條之二"},{"start":104.998,"end":123.739,"text":"明定主管機關得基於保護森林生態及環境的目的就森林區域內特定地點公告為管制地點並得採行成載量管理人員入出管制車輛使用限制以及宿營地點限定"},{"start":124.139,"end":144.377,"text":"指定或禁止等措施避免因為油氣活動過度集中而造成森林的退化另外配合新增的管制機制修正第56條之3在第1項第4款增列未經管理機關許可進入第17條之2所公告之管制地點為處罰行為"},{"start":147.479,"end":164.151,"text":"並新增第1項第5款對於違反主管機關1第17條之2所公告之各項管制事項者予以處罰來提升法治的完整性並確保管制效果透過本次修法建立"},{"start":165.032,"end":193.681,"text":"制度的管制跟明确的法源将有助于主管机关林业署于必要时采取适当的管理措施兼顾民众青山的需求跟森林生态永续的发展避免环境不可回复的损害而本席所提的版本呢农业部 法务部 财政部 内政部 人民会 交通部 退府会皆无意见表示支持那以上修正敬请委员们支持谢谢"},{"start":194.402,"end":200.862,"text":"谢谢 谢谢吴丽华委员的说明谢谢 我们现在请尤浩委员说明"}]}},{"id":"165936","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165936","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859e42d36f518c6847e893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de7a56b3449513e4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:10:48 - 09:11:08","影片長度":"00:00:20","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:10:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:11:08+08:00","duration":20,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.52659375,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.809093750000002,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":18.72846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":16.307,"text":"經濟之進步價值以促進學生健康飲食及健全學生生息發展原理據高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐公餐法草案敬請今天討論公決 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165935","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165935","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859136e21cc37f9add5893e22039d6e8f6135840082273422de03e613f7b702dda25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:07:29 - 09:09:36","影片長度":"00:02:07","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-27","start_time":"2025-11-27T09:07:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T09:09:36+08:00","duration":127,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-4-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.43659375,"end":125.32784375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":20.96,"text":"不足以因應當前多元的公餐與層出不窮的食安問題尤其是在縣市層級運作的當中責任分散還有涉及的部會局處也眾多營養的人力不足食材的來源不透明成了一個制度性的缺口"},{"start":22.1,"end":46.608,"text":"本席所提的這個條例即是以法律位階來整合現行的規範讓中央 地方 學校三個層級都有明確的責任與配套這個草案共分7章27節重點包括了第一個部分是建立中央與地方雙軌推動的體系由教育部來設置學校午餐及飲食教育促進委員會那麼地方來設置推動會"},{"start":47.668,"end":73.47,"text":"定期來召開會議確保政策滾動的檢討透明 公開第二個部分是強化專業人力的配置調整的門檻以更多學校設置更多營養師與校廚為主並確立了培訓制度跟健康檢查的機制以確保膳食品質與衛生安全第三個部分是推動在地食材與食農教育鼓勵學校"},{"start":74.67,"end":103.169,"text":"來採用國產的食材發展地方飲食特色同時將飲食教育納入課程培養學生的營養素養與息食觀念第4個部分是建立校園食材採購與登錄平台由農業部與教育部共同管理簡化採購流程落實資訊揭露防止食安漏洞那麼本條例的制定將學校午餐政策有一套完整的母法依據"},{"start":104.51,"end":124.582,"text":"那麼從公餐品質到食安監督和營養教育都有法治的保障那這個是兒少健康權與食安國策的一個基礎建設那麼懇請各位委員支持本案讓營養安全教育並行的午餐制度成為守護下一代健康的重要基石以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17078","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17078","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db66a25cdaa7df4ae823404d76460a293a85db5c09cad80ab77074d80392d74c6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (僅詢答)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-27T08:35:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T12:34:00+08:00","duration":14338,"影片長度":"03:58:58","委員發言時間":"08:35:02 - 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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1463.656,"end":1463.737,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1715.468,"end":1726.726,"text":"請築密報告出席人數報告委員會出席人數出席委員10人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1727.95,"end":1757.244,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議事錄時間114年11月19日星期三9時至11時54分114年11月20日星期四9時1分至12時12分地點紅樓101會議室初期委員林黛化等12人請教委員2人列席委員柯之恩等22人列席人員114年11月19日星期三經濟部部長龔明新行政院公共工程委員會副主任委員陳威祥等"},{"start":1758.842,"end":1776.712,"text":"114年11月20日星期四 國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢經濟部部長龔明勳 數位發展部政務次長侯怡秀國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛 教育部常務次長朱俊璋勞動部部長洪森翰等主席 楊朝濟委員瓊英"},{"start":1779.846,"end":1804.443,"text":"114年11月19日星期三 報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄 決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份有限公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程款項爭議進行報告並被質詢經濟部部長龔明鑫及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長方振仁報告後委員林大化等16人提出質詢進而經濟部部長龔明鑫"},{"start":1806.724,"end":1824.126,"text":"及行政院公共工程委員會副主任委員陳薇祥等即席答覆決定1.登記發言委員處不在場者外 其餘經營發言完畢 訊答結束2.委員員瓊玉玲及邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄 看任公報3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於週內書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1826.605,"end":1842.045,"text":"114年11月20日星期四 八號事項邀請國家發展委員會主任委員 經濟部部長 數位發展部首長國家科學及技術委員會首長教育部首長及勞動部首長就攸關台灣未來的競爭力 直指AI時代 台灣如何贏得新人才戰"},{"start":1842.906,"end":1864.257,"text":"進行報告並備諮詢國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢及經濟部部長龔明勳報告後委員陳婷菲等17人提出諮詢經由國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛經濟部部長龔明勳數學發展部政務次長侯怡秀勞動部常務次長陳明仁教育部常務次長朱進章等及其答覆決定"},{"start":1864.497,"end":1866.159,"text":"我们现在先继续进行讨论事项请宣读"},{"start":1887.168,"end":1913.076,"text":"審查1本院委員賴銳榮等17人委員蔡毅等17人委員陳婷菲等16人委員張雅琳等19人分別擬據申請法部分條文修正草案等5案2本院委員陳冠廷等18人委員馬文君等19人委員游浩等25人委員林黛嬅等16人分別擬據申請法增訂第8條之1條文修正草案等4案"},{"start":1916.503,"end":1942.057,"text":"3.本院委員鄭天才等18人委員楊瓊英等26人分別擬據申請法第二條及第15條條文修正草案等二案4.本院委員吳立華等17人擬據申請法第17條之二及第56條之三條文修正草案5.本院委員盧憲一等16人擬據申請法第9條之一及第15條條文修正草案"},{"start":1944.762,"end":1958.554,"text":"6 本院委員黃人等29人擬拒 申請法第15條條文修正草案7 本院委員羅廷偉等16人擬拒 申請法第二條第17條之二及第56條之三條修正草案先斷筆"},{"start":1961.82,"end":1970.173,"text":"謝謝 那我們現在就介紹我們在場的官員我想我們就不浪費時間多介紹大家都認識了感謝部長 草原相關單位還有戴華委員那我們現在"},{"start":1976.499,"end":2003.921,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項為森林法部分條文修正草案那本日只有進行詢答那這部分我們也會等因為森林法現在目前行政院的版本已經在院會裡面已經通過也要等待送到立法院來那這個部分我們到時候會併案再去做討論那我們今天進行詢答那我們現在請伍麗華委員做提案說明"},{"start":2018.919,"end":2030.348,"text":"謝謝主席大家早安我在這邊本席針對這次森林法的修法做提案說明森林是我國非常重要的自然資產"},{"start":2031.414,"end":2048.255,"text":"也是許多民眾親近山林體驗自然的重要公共空間但是隨著我們的山林解禁跟戶外活動的興盛部分的國有與公有鄰居由其行為太集中"},{"start":2049.056,"end":2075.829,"text":"以出現明顯的生態壓力研究也證實過度油氣將降低植坯覆蓋加劇土壤的硬化及充實讓自然環境面臨退化甚至不可逆的傷害那本席也處理過很多的油氣入山衝突像是大武哈油溪丹大林道等等為了讓民眾能夠永續的親近山林"},{"start":2076.385,"end":2083.443,"text":"让森林生态得以持续健康本席修法增订森林法第17条之二"},{"start":2083.908,"end":2108.475,"text":"及修正第56條之三主要的目的是在於回應近年國有公有林地因為油氣活動的快速成長所造成的環境衝擊有必要在法律層級明確的授權主管機關得採取管制措施以維護森林永續所以本席在森林法中新增了第17條之二"},{"start":2108.955,"end":2127.681,"text":"明定主管機關得基於保護森林生態及環境的目的就森林區域內特定地點公告為管制地點並得採行成載量管理人員入出管制車輛使用限制以及宿營地點限定"},{"start":2128.101,"end":2150.18,"text":"指定或禁止等措施避免因为油气活动过度集中而造成森林的退化另外配合新增的管制机制修正第56条之三在第一项第四款增列未经管理机关许可进入第17条之二所公告之管制地点为处罚行为"},{"start":2151.441,"end":2168.108,"text":"並新增第1項第5款對於違反主管機關1第17條之2所公告之各項管制事項者予以處罰來提升法治的完整性並確保管制效果透過本次修法建立"},{"start":2169.008,"end":2197.668,"text":"制度的管制跟明确的法源将有助于主管机关林业署于必要时采取适当的管理措施兼顾民众青山的需求跟森林生态永续的发展避免环境不可回复的损害而本席所提的版本呢农业部 法务部 财政部 内政部 人民会 交通部 退府会皆无意见表示支持那以上修正敬请委员们支持谢谢"},{"start":2198.365,"end":2204.821,"text":"谢谢 谢谢吴丽华委员的说明谢谢 我们现在请尤浩委员说明"},{"start":2213.923,"end":2242.282,"text":"OK 謝謝趙偉 謝謝部長跟在座各位委員 各位官員那在今天的話本席提出的森林法第八條之一那因為在南投縣其實不管是南投縣跟許多的一些台灣各縣市的地方那常常有許多的這種土地的爭議國有或公有林地的爭議那其實在這個部分他們常常農民都會遇到許多後面在補償的一些問題"},{"start":2243.343,"end":2263.895,"text":"那其實當許多的每次的在山區或是在包括在許多遠鄉的包括國人他們那時候在討論到還每次的選舉不管是藍綠都喊著還地於民還可是實際上到底是不是真的在法制上還讓這個還地於民來落實啊那這些"},{"start":2264.495,"end":2285.559,"text":"除了國人或是農民他們在栽種的時候遇到的這些土地爭議導致他們在任何風災受損的時候他們血本無歸但是卻在任何的補償來講總是吃虧那其實在這樣子的一個這個制度上一直以來都有一個82721的一個解決方案但是其實在"},{"start":2286.259,"end":2302.851,"text":"他們在遇到問題的時候許諾的機關常常互踢皮球所以森林法增進第八條之一的部分它是為了讓現有的耕作者生計他能夠在這樣子82721的實際使用或是啃用的部分還來做一個法制化讓他們具體能夠"},{"start":2303.692,"end":2323.17,"text":"解決機關護體啤酒的問題那同時他們也要繳清歷年使用的補償金還在後面在能夠讓機關實際上能夠來進行出租才能夠達到還地漁民保障農民的一個正確做法所以在出租辦法也希望未來是由管理機關來訂定那所以"},{"start":2323.931,"end":2351.967,"text":"提出的第8條之一那是能夠改善解決山區遇到的農民問題尤其是國有或公有林地的這個部分那希望說這個提案還許多的委員跟機關也能夠支持讓我們常常在遇到這農民的問題我們有法治的部分來進行實際上的解決還在這裡也拜託各位謝謝我們現在請羅廷輝委員提案說明謝謝"},{"start":2360.029,"end":2376.625,"text":"好 山區油氣的活動近年來快速的成長常出現植被被踐踏土壤沖蝕 垃圾遺留違規的露營還有露宿這一個部分的亂停車等情形造成森林生態的整個破壞與環境的品質下降"},{"start":2377.245,"end":2394.142,"text":"部分地區甚至出現難以回復的環境退化跡象已影響了公共利益還有長期的一個保育目標現行的制度主要針對了自然保護區森林遊樂區定有較完整的管理規範但對於其他外呢"},{"start":2394.662,"end":2422.192,"text":"公有国有的林地油气压力等行为的一个管制尚缺明确的一个法源以及工具我们形成了一个管理的一个疏失跟落差因此本草案最主要的目的是建立更完整的森林油气的管理架构管理据在这一次森林法第二条第17条之二第56条及第三条的条文修正草案除配合行政院的组织改造将森林"},{"start":2423.484,"end":2448.293,"text":"法的一个中央主管机关名称由我们的修正为农业部之外呢另一方面新增了强化对国有公有的林地不当油气的一个行为还有管制的一个法则以维护森林生态的一个环境兼顾民众青山的权益谢谢赵伟在今天排审森林法的一个草案"},{"start":2449.033,"end":2460.724,"text":"希望可以早日完成健全我国的森林保育以及油气的管理法则以上谢谢谢谢提案说明我们请张亚林提案说明"},{"start":2470.009,"end":2490.583,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想這幾年大家都非常清楚的知道說我們其實越來越多青山的活動不管是登山健行或者是露營那其實都已經是很多人週末或者是休憩的一個重要的選擇那其實在鼓勵大家參與自然活動的時候我們也必須要去思考一下到底開放的程度要多少"},{"start":2491.383,"end":2517.073,"text":"不應該是一刀切開放或不開放而是我們應該有個更科學化的方式來去評量說到底這個地方的承載量到底是多少所以呢因為有了這個承載量的制度之後我們的主管機關才能夠依法去公告人流或車流的上限必要的時候可以劃設管制區避免生態應過度的使用而無法恢復讓開放不是破壞而是永續"},{"start":2517.833,"end":2533.511,"text":"所以在這次的修法裡面我提出了第一點就是把這個制度納入那第二個還有就是不當行為我想大家也都有看過一些影片有人會在這些地區森林的地區去修器的時候也餵食了野生動物"},{"start":2534.272,"end":2549.232,"text":"也喂食了游荡犬猫那其实呢这些都会改变这个这些动物的觅食习性那一旦动物习惯人为喂食的时候呢也会造成族群的异常疾病的传播"},{"start":2550.353,"end":2579.222,"text":"那所以呢這個遊蕩犬貓呢甚至也會因為族群擴張過快而捕食或是這個捕獵這個野生動物那也破壞了棲地危害了整體的生態環境所以這一次的修法裡面呢我們也明定了禁止餵食野生動物和遊蕩犬貓會提供讓這個大家在執法的時候呢提供一個更清楚的執法依據所以我要強調是說我們希望民眾青山但是我們還是要去考量到"},{"start":2579.922,"end":2605.987,"text":"10年後20年後我們的山林依然是如此的美麗然後我們的生態多樣性依然是存在在我們的森林裡所以我希望大家可以來支持就是乘載量管制以及加上我們禁止餵食遊蕩犬貓跟野生動物讓我們的山林開放跟永續可以並行謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的提案說明那我們現在請陳俊晉部長就委員提案進行報告"},{"start":2616.241,"end":2635.889,"text":"主席各位委員那今天封邀到立法院經濟委員會第12次的全體委員會議來審查森林法部分條文修正案以下緊究森林法部分行政院版的部分跟委員版的部分做一些說明那第一個部分是整個森林法"},{"start":2636.889,"end":2657.478,"text":"其實農業部有自己的版本那農業部的版本現在已經在院已經審查完畢了然後只要代院會通過以後就會納入我們這一次的一個審查並按去處理那行政院版的部分主要的修正目標是開放森林並適度管理兼顧森林永續生態的一個保護資源那修法大概有三個重點"},{"start":2658.238,"end":2683.28,"text":"那第一個重點就成如剛才很多委員所說的就是因山林的開放造成一些山林地區的一個生態的壓力所以我們在修法的裡面就是只要從事休息活動或是影響森林生態的部分可以由主管機關來公告管制範圍跟管制事項那第二個修正重點是針對這些重要的國內的重要尊貴的"},{"start":2684.541,"end":2708.961,"text":"貴重的木材還有就是國外非法進來的木材我們可以限制或禁止這些輸出路以保護杜絕這樣的一個爛財那修正的第三個重點就是加重人為活動造成的森林火災的一個刑責那過去我想有幾次也是因為人為火災造成一些不可收拾的這些災情所以我們在這次修法特別加重及刑罰下一頁"},{"start":2715.509,"end":2729.958,"text":"那接下來就是我們做了一些比較就是針對立法院立法委員所提的版本大概有14個案子那14個案子我們根據相關的這些條我們做了一些歸納那其中有"},{"start":2731.716,"end":2751.992,"text":"三個版本是針對修正第二條的部分是將原來行政院農業委員會改制為農業部調整主管機關的名稱那這個部分我們尊重委員的提案那第二個部分是針對國有公有林在82721前實施居住讓墾值的部分可以淨於出租的部分那這個部分因為"},{"start":2753.012,"end":2770.917,"text":"現在目前本部正在處理爛墾地的一個租放的事項那相關的這些租用的部分有不同的樣態所以我們建議不納入本市的修正那第三個部分是增訂第九條之一項對原住民地區的森林的部分在施工的時候必須"},{"start":2772.837,"end":2794.422,"text":"辦理原住民基本法第21條的諮商同意或參與那由於整個森林地區其實它含有一些部分的私有的林地的所有人的權益那如果說樣樣全部都要經過諮商同意的部分會造成很多緩不濟急特別是在緊急施工的時候所以我們也建議不納入本市的一個修正下一頁"},{"start":2795.242,"end":2815.382,"text":"那有部分的委員版本有提到修正第15條就是針對原住民地區可以依傳統文化祭祀或致用墓的部分針對漂流墓的部分可以不受這個註記的一個規定那在這邊我也特別說明就是當自然災害來臨的時候"},{"start":2816.943,"end":2841.153,"text":"山林的一些飄零木下來我們必須第一時間去做標記而且那段時間是一個比較危險的時間如果說沒有這樣的一個規定的時候貿然的這樣開放的話反而會對於原住民在減食的這些人員然後造成一些可能身體的一些受傷或其他的部分所以我們也建議不納入這次的一個修法的一個增訂那"},{"start":2841.853,"end":2869.719,"text":"接下來是增訂第17支2條對於休憩活動影響生態管理的部分那這個部分是跟我們現在報請行政院審查的一個方案大致相同的我們尊重委員的提案那接下來有一些委員是針對中央儲管機關的管制零產品的輸出及輸入那這個部分與我們報行政院版本的草案是大致相同的我們也尊重委員的提案那"},{"start":2871.078,"end":2898.357,"text":"修正第48支一條的部分有兩個版本那是增列地方主管機關為獎勵長期照領的一個對象那在這邊也特別說明因為地方政府也是執行獎勵照領的一個執行的單位那相關的都是政府單位的時候做照領其實是本分不應該用照領的方式再去領這個獎勵所以我們也建議不納入本市的一個修正"},{"start":2899.025,"end":2911.744,"text":"那接下來是針對三個版本有提到的就是加重人為活動造成放火失火的一個刑責的部分那在這邊有一部分就是跟我們"},{"start":2913.345,"end":2942.697,"text":"抱怨的版本大致相同我們尊重委員的一個提案但是針對森林燒毀後的回復原狀的執行那有他的一個困難度因為如果大面積的燒毀的時候要這些燒毀的人去做一個原樣的復原有他的有他的一個困難度那同樣的部分我想我們可以用其他的刑罰的部分或裁罰的部分去處理所以這個部分我們是建議不納入本市的一個修正那下一條"},{"start":2943.277,"end":2969.286,"text":"那另外那個有版本是提到放火及失火行為主動通報的一個義務的罰則那相關現在的規定就是你如果主動通報的時候就可以減免它的就是拙減它的一個量刑的部分那如果說我們把它強制變成它的義務的時候那有時候我們內部評估是有時候反而會造成人家不敢"},{"start":2970.39,"end":2994.521,"text":"不敢通報反而造成一些後續沒辦法處理因為在森林裡面很少人會看到的時候會造成一些所以建議不納入本市的一個修正那接下來是修正版本是修正第56條之一的部分那是違反第45條之一的罰則那我們尊重委員的提案這跟相關的罰則是一致的那另外修正第56條之三的部分"},{"start":2995.241,"end":3023.459,"text":"也是增訂相關的法則特別是在生理娛樂區或自然保護區的餵食的一個動物的法則那這個部分我想我們也尊重委員的提案那另外有版本是提到修正第58條的部分那是訂定就是第45之一跟第56條之一的實施日期那這個部分我想我們等到法律過了以後我想我們也會尊重委員的一個提案那整個的"},{"start":3025.205,"end":3052.312,"text":"一個森林法的修正其實是為了森林的永續的一個經營跟生態的維持那也非常感謝所有的委員提這樣的一個版本那部分的版本雖然說並沒有納入我們現在這次送院的一個版本但是我們也絕對尊重委員在委員會這邊提的一個版本我們也絕對一個尊重以上報告謝謝部長部長你們現在這個已經到院裡面了嗎你們的現在"},{"start":3054.758,"end":3070.391,"text":"通過完就會到立法院那我要拜託一下因為剛剛你在報告的時候只有很多部分你們不予修正那我相信你們要去說服這些委員你們到底現在已經有機制在你的機制在哪裡"},{"start":3071.092,"end":3098.539,"text":"好你要去說服我覺得這才是希望趕快讓森林法通過否則我們沒有辦法去讓這所謂的森林大我們去預指這些動作就是趕快用法來讓你們有武器好拜託一下謝謝謝謝部長我們現在先來確定上次會議思路有沒有問題沒有的話我們先確定會議思路好那我們現在這個"},{"start":3101.977,"end":3129.109,"text":"本次我们会议各部会所提的书面报告请委员自行参阅并刊登公报那本日议程讨论事项合并询答委员咨询前依照往例做以下宣告每位委员发言时间五分钟本会委员五分钟必要时延长两分钟非本会委员四分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记我们请第一位登记的林黛华委员发言"},{"start":3132.062,"end":3142.01,"text":"有请部长请部长国务院好"},{"start":3143.369,"end":3167.47,"text":"剛才主席說請你要跟各位提案委員溝通從你的報告當中只要立法院跟你意見不同的你都完全叫做不予納入跟你行政院版的你叫納入我不知道你要溝通什麼第二個今天本席站在這邊就是要捍衛在山區四代居住居民的土地正義"},{"start":3168.57,"end":3184.449,"text":"今天在山區當中為什麼原住民可以漢民族不可以我是大力支持原住民當中尤其我很敬佩我們不分藍綠的原住民立委他們這樣子"},{"start":3185.771,"end":3208.183,"text":"每一屆每一屆包括政府政權的更迭他們不放棄的願為原住民在山區居住的土地正義的捍衛透過立法透過成為行政機關今天漢民族在山區居住的事實跟山原住民是一樣的我再更講第二點"},{"start":3209.929,"end":3230.523,"text":"林務 農業部跟國有財產署財政部的國有財產署兩個不同的部門反而是國有財產署重視到了山區居住世代的這個居住的土地正義而林務局你沒有 你只看到樹沒有看到裡面有住人"},{"start":3231.303,"end":3240.688,"text":"所以本席所提案的剛才我很認真的聽幾個非本黨的不分藍綠的委員針對這個森林法第8條之一不分藍綠喔所提出來修法你到底有沒有聽進去啊 我覺得你沒有包括你整個的報告我也很認真聽到最後我們在這個森林的生態保育這當然本席支持啊"},{"start":3259.799,"end":3287.641,"text":"你都沒有講到人那你修什麼啊你修什麼 你還來跟我們溝通什麼藍綠的立委這邊陳冠廷委員這個提案 馬文君委員提案游皓委員提案 本席提案我還沒講到連署的人喔我們全部都給你打臉了嘛所以你的法案你沒有聽到名義耶好 開始本席 林班弟還是家這本席直接點出重點了"},{"start":3289.322,"end":3289.567,"text":"來下一頁"},{"start":3291.109,"end":3320.629,"text":"法律不能只屬森林有幾公頃也要交代山林有幾戶人家台灣山區的發展歷史悠久政權多次更迭地籍資料的缺漏土地登記制度長期不完善而使得我許多山區居住的居住權益被侵蝕生活環境受到威脅土地使用權及其合法的權益面臨嚴峻的挑戰這些都明白的寫在本席跟其他提案委員"},{"start":3321.529,"end":3346.333,"text":"你們反對的這個森林法增訂第8條之一說明當中爬梳歷史民國58年的時候政府為了穩定山區居民的生計以第一版的杭照圖認定既有佔肯跟居住事實排除地質的敏感地區容許簽訂正式的租約或移交國有財產主以建築用地跟榮木用地來簽約好 到了民國66年78年90年就辦了三次的補辦作業"},{"start":3350.294,"end":3352.315,"text":"最後一次補辦97年看好這個數據民國97年的申報案件當中有6200多件最後只有684件通過只有一成多的通過表示給你申辦當中有九成現在被認定為違法"},{"start":3370.166,"end":3380.63,"text":"所以一直就一直這二三十年來一直就被讓你認定為違法所以包括你們的詞彙用的多可怕叫做濫墾地你認為他們叫做濫墾戶多可憐啊"},{"start":3386.793,"end":3411.904,"text":"國有財產署可以你為什麼不可以好代表絕大數實際居住的使用的戶數始終被排除在制度之外在同一塊土地在林務機關的電腦裡面被標示為林班地在居民的記憶當中叫做家這個矛盾如果不透過法律的補正山區居民會永遠被標記為違規占用戶今天本席宣示"},{"start":3413.565,"end":3426.631,"text":"森林法的第8條之一是在處理國家對山區居民長期牽扯的歷史帳不是替新違章開後門搞清楚"},{"start":3428.058,"end":3443.673,"text":"什麼叫做 你看啊你們寫什麼 你們的報告寫什麼這個呢 對於這個呢 還是你們寫說呢之前依法排除佔用者顯示橫貧在實務執行上衍生爭議"},{"start":3445.775,"end":3462.668,"text":"哇 你們這個完全都沒有看到人耶我不知道你的存在是為了樹木還是為了人而存在好 再來制度門一直在收窄居民始終被排除在外現行國有林地總面積161萬公頃山區內許多建物跟農田具有長期使用與歷史背景"},{"start":3467.291,"end":3485.477,"text":"卻因法律設計不完備被一律視為違規佔用生活受到影響所以把人民從佔用戶改名為陳租戶不是放水而是把國家欠下的帳補給回來所以本席我也沒多厲害我就比照國有財產法"},{"start":3486.937,"end":3504.727,"text":"一字不漏的超過來在森林法當中國有或公有土林地於民國82年7月20號以前以實際居住使用並願繳清歷代歷年的使用補償金則則管理機關也就是你林務署林保署就可以給予出租"},{"start":3505.447,"end":3528.85,"text":"好那比照國有財產署的國有財產法的精神你必須提供這些喔戶籍涉及資料房屋稅水電證明建物權利的證明再加上我會用修正單位加起來這三個士林證明以及經法院判決確認佔用的事實經法院判決他是佔用表示他真的居住啊"},{"start":3529.631,"end":3551.538,"text":"然後或者是林保署列管的占用戶以及政府於820721日前設置的圖資等等剛才我的提案就是把國有財產署的這些的文件寫到森林法這邊來而已所以一國兩制嘛你們就是連這樣的事實連照抄國有財產署的都懶得抄"},{"start":3552.558,"end":3580.452,"text":"好也就是說對像是國有跟公有林地的歷史常住戶10點明確鎖定在82721以前必須提出可檢視的客觀證據所以本席的提案包括其他委員的提案他是一套嚴格可集合財政補償基礎的歷史普證機制不是榮等的特色跟全面合法化所以本席要求在本法通過之後"},{"start":3581.793,"end":3604.169,"text":"當然我還是尊重主席啦如果主席我也希望主席的要懇請主席您的才智要把我們這幾個立委提案的森林法徵修第八條之一納入院版你院版要有態度啊你沒有的話那你幹嘛送出來什麼大家都一定不滿意嘛你也沒有解決民怨那你送出來幹嘛"},{"start":3605.45,"end":3618.159,"text":"好所以呢這個通過之後我也要求其實現在你們就要做了三個月內全國國有及公有土地府82721前已有實際居住使用的紀錄的疑似戶數的盤點而這個全國的盤點當中也請你依限識別使用樣態書面送交"},{"start":3625.884,"end":3644.98,"text":"本委員會並公開那包括你們也事先這個規劃好在這個本法通過之後的六個月內參考國有財產法的銜接方式提出森林法第八條之一的整體實施的計畫包括審查流程證明文件要讓人家提出申請"},{"start":3646.021,"end":3655.171,"text":"好再來我講這幾個個案這不是個案是一整個市在的山區居民耶西頭莊家案嘉義山區暴憤起伏西頭莊家案市區這個西頭莊家案的莊家是什麼"},{"start":3661.258,"end":3685.137,"text":"他世世代代與你林務局造林契約 最後還是走向拆屋還地南投西投的專家從清代開始就在當地耕作日治時代與戰後初期都被視為地方的遠啃人物民國56年的時候更與台大石研林簽署了40年的造林契約結果還是被你們片面的解約那這個"},{"start":3686.138,"end":3706.694,"text":"嘉義山區居民跪地求土地證與生存權這個我在這邊要表達對陳明文陳前立委的致敬他2023年的時候媒體報導嘉義縣山區居民應有國有林搬地林業用地國土保安用地等辯定長年面臨住了幾十年的家被說是違法"},{"start":3707.515,"end":3720.37,"text":"一翻修就處罰 不斷被移送法辦要求拆屋還地的處境包括奮起伏 你要翻修 要還房子就沒理由了 林班地限制下的日常困境是什麼日常困境是什麼"},{"start":3723.272,"end":3744.602,"text":"為什麼2019年公司都正式的報導嘉義縣阿里山的奮吉湖地區原居民因住在這個林班地連最基本的整修房屋都寸步難行長年活在這棟房子到底算不算維護好的非法店我舉這三個這是比較特別的案例我的高雄市我整個山區也是這個狀況啊六龜"},{"start":3747.164,"end":3757.522,"text":"從我本席當立委到現在25年了尤其六龜的山區常常都有這種林班地啊你們都說違法 人家是在那邊世代居住欸好 再來"},{"start":3759.468,"end":3778.242,"text":"好我們看這些事實是什麼西投莊西投莊家案在現行制度下不管居民世代主張4G多久在無法在現行的體制下證明為合法最後的結局都只有拆除跟驅離所以森林法第8條之一是要解決這個結構的問題"},{"start":3780.063,"end":3784.148,"text":"嘉義山區案居民在立委服務處陳明文陳立委的這個服務處這樣跪求欸你看到這個不會流淚嗎還要人民跪求欸你們的那個農業部在幹什麼你看到這個跪求你心裡不會淌血嗎"},{"start":3798.384,"end":3811.977,"text":"請求這個土地證與生存權的畫面 凸顯這不是單一個案而是整個山區治理結構的長期問題 奮起無案好 這雖然是林班第四你們管人家來問國有財產署 人家國有財產署就講啦"},{"start":3813.338,"end":3824.969,"text":"不好意思我們這個國有財產署的辦理方法很簡單陳初步你領到租約之後只要依租約使用就可以繼續合法不會被拆除我們有明確的幾個文件你只要提出來就可以了"},{"start":3831.109,"end":3845.598,"text":"我只差說好國有財產署在做跟你做指導你連聽都不聽啊所以呢這可以證明一件事情從一國我們國家政府一體的情況之下國有財產署做得到你零保署就做得到"},{"start":3846.358,"end":3874.567,"text":"證明一件事情只要國家承認歷史使用的私資透過解編 懲諸主席不好意思再兩分鐘等機制調整地目與權利居民就可以在不犧牲森林保育的前提下講好不犧牲森林保育的前提下可以取得穩定安全的居住環境所以森林法的第八條之一就是把這樣的個案協商的經驗制度化為可普遍適用的法律工具"},{"start":3875.347,"end":3880.647,"text":"那再来下一页好下一页好下一页"},{"start":3881.539,"end":3906.1,"text":"好 山區居民本席就要立即要求 既然現在在修法階段我提出三點 這個不是森林法第八條之一不是只上座而是真正落實 包括你院版現在正在進行所以第一個 立即暫緩強制拆除你的報告說什麼啊 說說你們還在針對爛肯定的清理機制還要分聯進行排除佔用 你給我即刻給我暫停"},{"start":3908.124,"end":3922.959,"text":"給我即刻暫停如果在森林法當包括你的院版當中沒有修法通過以及這個當中沒有納入第8條之一的執法修法完成之前逾率上訪強制拆除局刑事移送避免編修法"},{"start":3923.859,"end":3949.716,"text":"編拆敷的荒謬情況 如果這個剛才你講了你的院版都還在進行當中 你還在修法的階段你還在拆敷 這個不是很荒謬嗎好 再來全國盤點跟資料公開在你們現在本席要求三個月內你盤點全國的國有跟公有林地的疑似符合的條件的住戶全部盤點這樣而且要以圖資跟數據的方式公開 送本院備查"},{"start":3950.216,"end":3958.52,"text":"避免黑箱操作與選擇性執法以及從現在開始你們要準備在這個六個月內完成實習細則怎麼參考一下學習一下國有財產署他們怎麼讓人民來申辦的就學習他我讓你六個月去學習好最後我要呼籲的是夏業"},{"start":3971.911,"end":3994.061,"text":"這個不好意思主席我停一下這個你們一直都不能動我一直不能按這個處理一下好嗎好同一個家庭是占用戶還是國民森林法第8條之一是讓國家承認一個簡單的事實在161萬公頃的國有林地不只有樹也有一代又一代住在那裡的人你的161萬公頃裡面的國有地沒有樹人嗎"},{"start":4000.424,"end":4016.132,"text":"有住的原住民我們支持他 我大力的支持住的閩南人 住的漢民族你就不把他當做人看啊而且連國有財產署都認定這樣的漢民族都可以住在那邊了你的農業部還忽視"},{"start":4019.934,"end":4044,"text":"還忽視說這161萬公頃當中沒有住的人你的土地正義捍衛的人權在哪裡憲法保障的人民的居住權在哪裡本席要求今天行政院跟主管機關正面回憶這個條文背後的歷史欠帳以具體行動讓山區居民在不犧牲環境保育的前提下終於能夠在國家法律內被當成有名字"},{"start":4044.58,"end":4059.414,"text":"有地址有權利的公民 同一個家庭在地級上可以被叫作戰用戶在國家記憶裡面 應該永遠被叫作國民謝謝主席 那他的回應咧 到底他針對真理法第8條 這些委員提案是忽視呢還是一樣 反正跟我沒關係我們要跟委員溝通"},{"start":4069.364,"end":4096.333,"text":"好 會跟委員溝通溝通是朝向來跟我們有看重的這個人民的居住權還是不要土地正義你剛才講得非常好土地正義我們現在只要求他要有證明那航照圖的證明你剛才講的清朝日本時代的時候航照圖一定會出現所以現在我們處理的是你航照圖沒有的時候那就是先讓肯的部分那我們就會處理來 你再只講一個本席提的那個法案不好意思"},{"start":4098.763,"end":4103.529,"text":"國產署跟我們農業部本身的處理的原則是不一樣 我們有清理 國產署沒有清理"},{"start":4120.834,"end":4137.456,"text":"那個是你的列正 所以我叫你清理啊你終於講出重點了所以我說你三個月內要提出清理啊因為有清理 所以不能像國產署一樣一個時間點切下去就結束了喔 對 我想你已經講到重點因為你沒有清理因為我們有清理"},{"start":4139.238,"end":4164.765,"text":"因為你沒清理所以你的疑似或是我叫你盤點然後你才依照這些那個戴華偉跟部長因為時間已經所以你把我高雄市山區的居民放在哪裡我六龜 紅森林 甲仙我會跟委員再溝通你把我高雄市山區的居民東九區的居民放在哪裡我就講我高雄市就好了"},{"start":4165.945,"end":4182.219,"text":"你放在哪裡 你現在還在跟我騙說好我只有一項規則就可以了為什麼國有財產署可以多少我還針對可以六項的申請的要件水電證明也可以啊你只有一個航照圖"},{"start":4183.84,"end":4206.048,"text":"我們請部長針對我們目前一些土地的一些寬容的部分因為確實很多都是很早就已經在這一塊土地生長的他的一個權益所以因為過去可能我們老一輩的沒有資料那麼清楚而造成他自己的權益受損這也不公平"},{"start":4206.468,"end":4233.249,"text":"所以拜托大家 就是拜托部长我们的署长这里我们了解一下状况因为不是在高雄而已台南 嘉义每个地方都有这个状况也确实林务局的相关土地林班地的部分比较多这个状况那台南署都已经有调整了那我们林班地要怎么调整那当然我们现在是用航测图可是航测图完之后还是有一些"},{"start":4233.989,"end":4258.264,"text":"遺珠之憾那這個部分怎麼補強怎麼補足再拜託我們部長再做一個思考再跟我們委員再做討論那個主席可不可以請你請他們我不敢說要求啦我已經很寬容了說請他們研議納入院版的版本你沒有研議納入院版版本其實對我們這些委員長期以來所以請他先把"},{"start":4258.924,"end":4284.232,"text":"我们的意见然后收集起来沟通因为目前院版还没进来他的院版没有我很认真看他的简报对他的院版我看了简报从他不管他增订的部分他的修正的地你的简报的地第几页第二页所以我们还有一个修法的阶段讨论的阶段就只有第二页到时候再来做处理好待会因为时间上谢谢主席谢谢"},{"start":4286.414,"end":4288.235,"text":"謝謝我們戴華委員的質詢謝謝部長謝謝我們請賴瑞榮委員質詢謝謝主席請陳部長謝謝"},{"start":4311.543,"end":4338.131,"text":"部長我先請教一下那個台中豬瘟10月份的時候發生台中豬瘟那現在整個就農業部的看法是已經控制住了嗎以現在看起來應該全國應該沒有其他的那個潛在的這些病例所以控制住了那從這一次的這個經驗裡面的話有哪些需要再做更多的加強的從海關到市場甚至到豬場的一些控制有哪些認為應該再做加強"},{"start":4339.531,"end":4367.199,"text":"我很快的跟委員說明就是我們的肺肉豬分防疫大概三個關卡第一個部分是邊境管制邊境管制本身我們也增加了一些效率然後後市場的稽查現在也在做了最重要的是最後的那道防線的部分那相關的規定我們在有可是各縣市本身的執行的強度可能有稱之不齊所以這個部分我想我們後續會跟縣市政府的查核的部分我想我們會再有一個"},{"start":4367.779,"end":4391.461,"text":"我一個一個對一下啦所以在海關的部分有加強在做吧持續加強嘛對不對那郵件郵包的部分呢相關的郵件郵包的部分也增加大概20%的抽檢率抽檢率啦希望能夠防堵有任何的這些的疫區的國家的豬肉進來啦其實不只疫區我們全部都不准進來的那另外在市場端的部分有持續來加強嘛對不對"},{"start":4392.922,"end":4411.345,"text":"對 市場端我們針對相關的這些高風險的這些商店我們也會去採用聯合稽查特別是衛福部針對食品的部分也會去做稽查特別是一些比如說中國 越南或其他一些高風險區的商店他們有可能販售的一些豬肉產品的時候就會去做家常稽查"},{"start":4412.446,"end":4435.132,"text":"那當然另外 豬場這一次很大的原因是在於廚餘並沒有真正落實到真主的機制這個也會強力去要求地方政府來做到嗎對 我想我們後續會再跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通因為裁罰只是一個手段而已它應該是防範於未來就是說本身如果說還沒有"},{"start":4436.634,"end":4458.602,"text":"發生的第一時間就要抓到才法是最後不得已說但是一旦發生了就來不及所以是一定是要落實去做相關的工作比如說你的廚餘的有在用廚餘那些的烹煮是不是確實有落實到一個小時90度這個一定要落實去做嘛所以這個會農業部跟地方政府會持續的再去要求更多的這些作為嗎"},{"start":4459.022,"end":4484.489,"text":"我們中央應變中心每個禮拜都還在開會我們一直要求這個一定要要求落實下去這只要有幾個縣市沒有落實到或有幾個農場這個豬場沒有落實到的話就有可能會造成是個破口好不好這個請農業部跟地方政府要不斷的要求去做這件事情這個很嚴重的這一次主要的點就落在這個地方嘛那當然一旦如果發生了後面的控管這一塊"},{"start":4485.65,"end":4512.089,"text":"顯然當時台中市政府也有一些問題的這個部分也希望能夠納入到標準作業程序把這個訂定清楚不要再有任何的機制上可能出現漏洞因為這一次算是不幸中的大幸就是並沒有整個擴散出去那如果一旦擴散出去的話那恐怕台灣就很難再恢復到非議區而且對我們的豬肉的這個就造成相當重大影響所以我希望這件事情農業部一定要落實這幾個原則都要處理"},{"start":4513.61,"end":4529.646,"text":"會 我們會盡對他的努力那我問一下那如果全部都順利的維持在這樣的控制狀況的話三個月的時間我們可以提送去希望恢復到非疫區的部分嗎跟世界動物衛生組織來恢復成非疫區這預定待什麼時間點"},{"start":4530.507,"end":4553.34,"text":"我想我們要向WOH去提出非疫區的部分有幾個要件第一個就是說我們要證明說可能的來源我們都有有效的控管的部分這個部分可能牽涉到後面我們廚餘養豬的一些政策那如果都順利的話我們也希望說只要完備那個資料跟程序的話我們就會向WOH那最快什麼時候可以來提送"},{"start":4555.054,"end":4583.553,"text":"三個月是一個最快的如果三個月來看的話是2月21號是最快的時間最基本的時間但是要看我們的整個的來源的部分是不是有效的能夠掌握來說服WHO你說的是廚餘這個來源的部分嗎對 它所有的病毒的風險它都要我們那這樣子農業部有什麼樣的作為要來做的我想大方向我們對廚餘養豬本身除了那個我之前說的山藥件就是那個珍珠要落實那個雞盒要落實還有一個"},{"start":4584.594,"end":4602.334,"text":"法令的完備另外地方政府同意以外那整個廚藝的料源的大方向我們是朝著禁用家戶廚餘然後同時也希望給廚藝養豬業者有一段緩衝期再來做一個落日那像剛剛部長講這些原則要多久時間可以完成"},{"start":4604.19,"end":4622.128,"text":"整個現在在這個裝色監視器的部分環境部正在處理那他們是大概是應該是在年底之前12月7號應該會有第一波的裝色完成的部分那後續可能會在年底之前要全部裝色完畢那其他的措施呢"},{"start":4622.779,"end":4635.592,"text":"那其他的措施現在我們的部分大概有一些轉型的措施我們都準備好了那相關的就是最主要是除以後端的這些再利用的處理量能是不是能夠那這個有辦法在三個月內完成嗎"},{"start":4637.186,"end":4656.371,"text":"應該可以啦可以啦所以我們的目標一樣是2月17號來2月21號來提出申請嘛是嗎對我們的文件的準備大概用三個月啦然後還要再持續的溝通因為送出去以後他不一定馬上合可能還有一些補充的啊但是我們送出的時間我們以2月21號來送出申請為非議區嘛2月21來申請嘛是嗎"},{"start":4658.939,"end":4677.208,"text":"大致上是這樣子好我們希望順利的到這個目標來完成那希望送出之後儘速的溝通儘速讓台灣恢復為肺疫區這對我們的豬肉對我們的這個產業都相當的重要好再來請教一下中國也傳出了有新的病毒這個包括他們的病史豬也流入市場"},{"start":4677.908,"end":4700.243,"text":"不只啦 包括像河北它有個蓋塔病毒非洲豬瘟甚至於包括廣州 福建 江西 河南 四川等都有感染這個農業部有在注意這件事情嗎我們有注意所以說我們的風險越來越大甚至於前幾天韓國又爆發了非洲豬瘟所以我們鄰近的國家其實不斷地在就是"},{"start":4701.224,"end":4721.805,"text":"清除了以後再發生清除了以後再發生那台灣一定不要類似這樣的行為所以我們現在持續是用高強度的防疫的一個管制所以我希望剛剛講到那些防治的要更加的強度啦現在連中國又傳出新的病毒還有另外一個新的病毒所以我們對豬肉的管制必須更加的強制才能確保台灣豬的安全是"},{"start":4722.225,"end":4744.619,"text":"好不好 這個請部長要落實那當然要加強宣導來重罰其實剛剛提到的甚至於其實包括中港澳 韓國 越南 泰國都有最近時間都有違規的包裹這些事件甚至於快遞也都有那這個部分我還是希望能夠加強去查緝現在抽檢是20%是不是提高20%提高20% 會再加高嗎"},{"start":4746.7,"end":4767.872,"text":"對 我們現在首檢區是100%經過X光啦 都是經過X光然後這個人工開箱的部分就提高了20%然後特別針對綠線的 綠線本來是不用查的我希望這一塊農業部再思考啦因為畢竟包裹進來是最沒有那個 因為不像隨行帶進來包裹的部分的話 隨時整個寄送的話 他不斷去測試你 不斷測試你那你有時候你罰也不見得罰得到"},{"start":4770.794,"end":4787.994,"text":"所以我是希望這件事情要再考慮加高特別是在中國的這個新的病毒又產生的時候這個要思考一下再包裹在郵件特別是有豬肉產品的要再加高它的抽檢的一個頻率我跟委員報告郵遞快遞也是百分之百特別是報關的部分喔快遞報關的部分它都要"},{"start":4788.594,"end":4813.829,"text":"家住他是從哪個國家來的這個部分我想我們會有風險這一塊要請務必要防堵因為我們認為很有可能這一次的台中的豬肉這個豬肉有可能也許就是從包國郵件進來的好不好 這個地方我希望農會部加嚴一個禮拜內給我你們的加重加嚴一些方案給我好不好好 我們把所有的那個邊境防堵的這些加重加嚴的方案給我參考好不好 把一份報告給我參考好 謝謝部長"},{"start":4821.665,"end":4823.486,"text":"我們有請陳聽飛陳委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請陳部長委員好"},{"start":4840.221,"end":4859.494,"text":"部長為什麼我們大家會這麼重視我們森林法而且為什麼大家會希望能夠保有我們一些先民甚至一代一代傳承然後到現在他的土地基本上他的生活範圍都在這裡可是因為很多人"},{"start":4860.492,"end":4876.549,"text":"他过去他的所谓的学识或是他的一些想法甚至他的一些识字的能力都没有像现在所以过去并没有保留那么多的资料"},{"start":4877.33,"end":4892.74,"text":"那導致現在會有一些爭議所以這是我們在地方的所有民代現在遇到的一個問題我們也常常開協調會沒有錯在我們有航測圖航測圖是一個非常直接的一個科技"},{"start":4893.601,"end":4913.821,"text":"我們的一個延續因為它有好幾個階段行冊有好幾個階段日據時代之前或明清時代之前或是在這當中我們大概都是在日據時代那個時候以那個為準則如果在最早一批那時候我們可以行冊讀的最早的日期是什麼時候"},{"start":4915.342,"end":4923.533,"text":"65到71年65年最早的一批65到71这段时间65到71嘛所以我们大概所有的一个"},{"start":4925.461,"end":4944.851,"text":"化分點分水嶺都是在75年因為如果在75年到71年我們能拿到航測圖大概我們都認定說你可能在之前在早期我們的先民祖先就在這裡了然後一代一代傳承到現在可是現在我們有一些問題是"},{"start":4946.431,"end":4970.128,"text":"他不一定会拍得那么清楚过去的科技跟现在科技是不一样的现在的科技可能会比较清楚一点可是在65年到71年那时候的航测图未必那么清楚我们还有人证物证你都可以举证可是人证物证你说65年前那些棋老到现在未必都存在"},{"start":4971.331,"end":4991.774,"text":"那你說有一些人證 物證 物證的部分你如果沒有 當時候也沒水電啊沒水沒電 你要怎麼拿到這裡住所以其實現在很多的問題是在這個關卡可是事實上周邊的人都可以證明一炸就住在這裡"},{"start":4993.09,"end":5017.946,"text":"這樣這邊怎麼辦就是說他可以知道里長可以證明嗎或是說很多周邊的一些人事物可以證明嗎這是現在最大的問題那很多公務人員就說不行啊我們的政府規定就是這樣你沒有認證不證可是當人證物證都不在的時候那他怎麼辦可是他現階段"},{"start":5018.959,"end":5043.04,"text":"有一些地方的人士可以证明确实他爸爸他阿公他什么人住在家那他可以保有他这样的一个权利吗其实我们在谈的是在这个部分那因为国有财产署确实因为有六个他的一个权衡那我们"},{"start":5043.496,"end":5071.628,"text":"林務局這邊是沒有林務局這邊是沒有的所以常常會有這些憾個所以這個也是我們希望說透過這次森林法有些我們能夠幫忙的而且確實當然如果他早就不住在這裡不可能因為我們不可能叫公務人員去違法這非常清楚我們是說有一些證據或是一些資料是真的可以證明"},{"start":5073.004,"end":5094.918,"text":"可以證明 那我們是不是應該更寬鬆要不然他整台人都住在這裡這樣的話 因為他的資料 因為東西可能我們在這個65年的資料並沒有照得很清楚因為以前的科技跟現在不一樣所以這個部分再拜託我們的部長稍微再去"},{"start":5096.679,"end":5115.897,"text":"斟酌一下该怎么样去协助他们这可能是比较重要的谢谢委员还有包括刚才那个戴华委员所提的我想我们内部会再去检讨比较务实面的部分以我的态度就是说只要能够证明不要让我们同仁在执法上造成一些违法的行为当然"},{"start":5116.798,"end":5132.866,"text":"我一定会尽可能的去做这样的一个处理我们的前提就是不会让我们公务人员违法对 我知道所以我想我们会更积极的去做一些沟通看看委员有没有什么比较好的意见然后我们再纳入相关的指标对 你就去沟通那这样的话就会比较好一点因为既然我们今天在做这个森林法的修法"},{"start":5133.746,"end":5160.863,"text":"那么我们是不是可以借着这个机会有一些能够帮忙民众的地方但是前提就是不让我们公务人员违法这个前提非常重要第二个部分就是说我们在台南说真的它也是我们森林的重要基地我们国有林地就4740多公顷然后公有林地是121多公顷私有林地是4909多公顷"},{"start":5163.425,"end":5192.437,"text":"所以在這個森林法的一個部分我們都希望我們如何保護它然後不要傷害它可是我們要怎麼樣給你們有武器所以其實我們剛剛我為什麼會剛剛拜託部長說因為你在報告的時候很多是說你們認為這個不應修法就依照原來的可是我們會提出來是我們認為要給你們更多的武器"},{"start":5193.197,"end":5201.205,"text":"而且这个部分你加重他失火放火销毁生灵的罚则这些相关的他会有压力"},{"start":5202.273,"end":5229.364,"text":"其实有压力他就不会去这么做没有压力他就会以身试法这是我们其实在这一次我们提出一些修法认为应该有更多的量能来防止这一个生灵大火的一个问题而且我们也知道在整个生灵大火的起火原因有97%它是人为的"},{"start":5230.683,"end":5252.096,"text":"他是人為的所以我們怎麼去遏止這樣的一個人為所以這也是我們這一次要修法所以我們到底要怎麼跨部會去防範森林大火部長我跟委員報告其實森林大火本身的防範最重要就是一些利害關係人不同的對象他可能包括"},{"start":5253.347,"end":5277.038,"text":"有施工的小木屋施工的也有旅客去野炊的部分那不同的部分應該客製化去做一些宣導的一些講習跟訓練然後你認為宣導就夠了嗎宣導是絕對不夠的宣導是絕對不夠的但是相對的我有宣導但是我有罰則我覺得這兩個是要一起互用的部分然後還有就是說有一些"},{"start":5278.178,"end":5294.249,"text":"可能的一些現在目前天然災害的這些這些系統細胞簡訊的部分我們也可以來處理其實就是整個SOP啦是就像部長所說的你們宣傳法則好執行面呢"},{"start":5295.405,"end":5322.863,"text":"執行面呢你這個SOP怎麼防範怎麼及時處理怎麼去跨部會做聯繫平台這不是你們農業部做就可以啦這必須要很多的單位一起好怎麼是事前預防宣導怎麼去如果發生的問題的時候有火災的時候有森林大火的時候你要怎麼去動員然後好你的水源點在哪裡這才是重點啊你看每一次森林大火一起來"},{"start":5324.113,"end":5339.719,"text":"我六天都打不完為什麼沒水完你沒有水源你怎麼打打滅所有的一個大火所以火災的破滅還有搶救它的取水地點它的取水方式這個會一定的SOP"},{"start":5341.365,"end":5367.377,"text":"我们现在应该有这样的相关的SOP包括有一些取水点我们都有预备的类似的蓄水池的部分万一有森林大火的部分不过我想这个部分我们应该更加强这个SOP的演练你要把它推出来这个SOP在哪里所有各部会到底在哪里我们要怎么做每一个人然后针对自己的位置如果发生问题的时候我们就可以第一时间"},{"start":5368.237,"end":5391.968,"text":"然後往前做各自應該有的動作然後讓我們這個森林大火趕快撲滅這才是我們SOP的重點謝謝委員提醒我們所以這個部分再拜託我們的部長這也是我們為什麼那麼急著說你們都還沒送出來因為這是我們的優先我們認為應該要讓你們有武器然後去遏止有97%是人為"},{"start":5395.149,"end":5398.191,"text":"這是很恐怖耶這部分再拜託謝謝好這個我延續喔這個我把這個今天早上我遛歸鄉親們給我的簡訊他說這個林班第爛墾清理續辦申請已經從100年4月1號到114年3月31號只共4年"},{"start":5422.422,"end":5441.668,"text":"12月24日又延續到116年3月31日的方案是對人民很好的事情可是審查條件沒有放寬可想還是再次給林業署刁難百姓而已刁難百姓我聽了就多心痛"},{"start":5442.248,"end":5456.469,"text":"所以拜託委員想辦法林班地上具有建物原地合法已經有死了多少人了被告而拆除了這麼嚴重請委員大發慈悲心拯救整個肯龍元肯龍"},{"start":5457.43,"end":5472.245,"text":"的可憐啊人家國有財產署的出租地面上的的這個如建物這個原地都可以給合法人家還在額熱國有財產署我就把一個清晨7點多遛歸鄉親們給我的簡訊好 謝謝謝謝陳昭偉 謝謝"},{"start":5482.97,"end":5486.172,"text":"謝謝戴華委員 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員質詢請陳部長叫林保守的林署長"},{"start":5511.052,"end":5537.639,"text":"我們請部長跟署長謝謝我也好我一開始執行的題目啊跟台南的陳亭輝高雄的年代化是一樣的我自己就是三區的鄉親啊包括最近中天民間特徵主義都來投訴講的問題就是他們世世代代住在山區"},{"start":5539.25,"end":5567.322,"text":"結果啊 已經墾戶 現在變成爛墾戶了政府強拆他們的房子 要他們還地還逼出了人命 逼死了這個人命剛才 喔 剛才你說要看政府來 我給你看他們站在外面的政府來 看上一張 上一張上一張這個青條啊 光是年間的這個資料阿公的阿公那時候他們就在這邊開墾了政府 清朝的政府"},{"start":5568.69,"end":5591.552,"text":"發了證明給他們 你看這是民眾給的 那個下一張在上一張那個 剛才看的是清朝對不對 嘉慶軍由台灣嘉慶軍五年的時候 開墾的時候 更借的那個地址那個文件 他們都拿出來看啊再下來日據時代明治35年啊那主流都有在的啊"},{"start":5594.124,"end":5619.145,"text":"你剛講去看行政圖當然當然也是一個我更要進一步的跟部長跟署長提醒伊井的政府怎麼處理這件事你看看阿扁亞在總統的時候他不只沒有拆沒有去拆房子耶沒有要你還地耶他是接見嚴肯戶在陳水扁當總統的時候馬英九當總統的時候都沒有這些事情喔"},{"start":5620.339,"end":5644.478,"text":"包括剛才在說的 到管政府在管這個事情的時候 也沒問題啊後來移交到了農業部 遺憾的事情就發生了剛委員會再提醒 財政部的國有財產署他的認定標準都比你還寬鬆所以齊凱 今天是我們的山區的一些鄉親他用血淚在控訴 都逼出人命了"},{"start":5645.782,"end":5657.906,"text":"所以齊凱今天很沉重的提了幾個很明確的呼應來 我們看我們的建議現在很嚴重的就是有些房子被拆了房子被拆 能不能先暫緩停拆"},{"start":5660.424,"end":5677.022,"text":"另外呢 要制度性去解決問題 都去補了跟內政部 你跟對岸政府要成立一個跨部會的小組趕快把它共同處理 我剛才說的人家歷史的文件都拿出來了把它做個整理 分類去管理另外做一個嚴懇部的一個調查的一個清澈另外給一個很強烈的建議"},{"start":5678.463,"end":5705.732,"text":"歷史的事情要有時間來處理阿旁邊這台北啟定那尊違建的問題很嚴重啊所以那時候建立了一個制度民國83年以前的列管以後就緩拆了到現在都沒拆全國用的都是這個標準那個林署長我特別請你上來你算是我看過的文官裡面比較有溫度的比較文化的在處理這個事情的時候不要只有看到林保"},{"start":5707.324,"end":5735.935,"text":"人命是人命關天特別是一個文明的社會就是對弱勢者對年長者的照顧要越好這些人真的是非常弱勢我以前都沒讀書啊我們爸爸阿公的師弟他們都沒讀書連水電都沒有啊所以要用更柔軟的心去幫他們好不好這個我就做了四點建議好不好部長我們就先這個要給你們時間我知道因為今天要審這個森林法而且這個事情人命關天最明確的我是要求"},{"start":5736.912,"end":5761.814,"text":"先不要拆 要去整體去處理另外我提一個點也很重要你現在行照圖去看你會發現有些地方可能跟原來不一樣所以你就去拆它可是你們出了一個很大問題他說有徵件那你全部怎麼 因為房子全部都拆掉你要拆頂多拆那個徵件的部分而且你如果徵件的是那房子那麼古老 古早期的那一處他有時候是為了安全"},{"start":5763.373,"end":5789.17,"text":"好不好 從寬去認定 好不好這個事情我都做了建議 請去幫他們好不好 保證給我處理好 接下來要問一個很重要的事情一樣是土地生意的就是工地放領那總統啊 這幾天說到說工地啊 要開始要放領這個事情可能要進一步去推動了我先注意到了一個點 非常奇怪"},{"start":5790.319,"end":5815.904,"text":"我先問你 我們的榮保是什麼時候開始事辦什麼時候開始正式的實施78年你看右邊 那你總統怎麼這樣說總統說他做行進一年時間推動改革啊只要是切實從事榮作不管是擁有農地或者是租的就可以參加榮保"},{"start":5819.132,"end":5836.672,"text":"對 我們那時候 現在就是說過去農保一定要有農地那現在只要是實際耕作者他如果被證明是有實際耕作者有租地的話 也可以參加農保對嘛 這72年七月一號正式實施嘛 對不對我們的中度當時當時平均一定107啊"},{"start":5840.732,"end":5861.502,"text":"民國78年7月1號就開始實施了嘛是不是那是農保那是農保對嘛我們總統快點說他在行政年限去推動這個農保那個是實際耕作的以前的農保是要有耕地要有土地那在107年的時候我們就開放了口頭約民國78年的7月1號"},{"start":5865.439,"end":5891.75,"text":"農保在74年的10月24號事辦嘛對不對78年7月要正式實施開辦的時候是什麼就包括租地的人就可以辦農保委員你這邊可能資訊有誤喔我剛才說的78年開辦農保是一定要有土地然後107年的時候我們是說只要是口頭約只要租地是實耕者就可以加入農保那是後來放寬的部分是在107年這是我在問過"},{"start":5895.465,"end":5899.068,"text":"農保應該問農業部會比較清楚問農業部應該會比較清楚我剛才說的嘛主管計劃是我們開放了口頭約只要你有實際耕作者也可以參加農保是107年"},{"start":5914.341,"end":5922.251,"text":"我另外問問你這個問題啊等等就牽扯到農民的福利第二個就是最近總統是不是常講錯話沒有啊 這個沒有啊所以昨天大家在討論這個沒有講錯話因為107年講到2527年跟兩年後"},{"start":5929.707,"end":5959.187,"text":"北京政府當局就要完成武統台灣引起天然大波他自己昨天在總統府的這個新聞稿裡面還在進一步去改我說這個是不是也是一個口誤呢我們的農民包括如果是用租的在民國78年7月1號107年好沒關係我去問老保那邊主管機關是農業部農業部我們我們承辦的時候107年所以你的意思是總統當行政院長時候推動的嗎"},{"start":5960.147,"end":5985.441,"text":"口頭約是總統當時推動的啊沒有錯啊可是也不是他任內受的啊第一個78年這個把它查清楚了第一個是不是他講錯話把它進一步查清楚我就很負責任的講說是107年我們沒有講錯話所以我說你的資訊是有誤的啊是不是78年就開始有這個我們要進一步來追了好不好78年是農保開辦107年是開放口頭約就是實耕者可以"},{"start":5986.499,"end":6009.976,"text":"然後豬的像工地放領現在再出了這個豬的部分就是107年啊這個我們進一步去追啦因為我從勞保局那邊我們的同仁去追的是這個因為主管單位是農業部接下來我要問一個很重要的工地放領很多民眾應該是贊成的可是不要又變成幫設置光電開了一個後門所以我具體做幾個呼籲做幾個建議來我們看我們的這個建議"},{"start":6016.035,"end":6033.149,"text":"工地放零是土地的正義可是不要變成是光電開貨門他一定要有一個嚴格的限制就是你工地放零到後來應該落實他是農地農業所以請農業部要很注意這個事情因為總統講完之後內政部已經開始在作業了嘛所以部長這段時間"},{"start":6036.377,"end":6049.626,"text":"包括漁電共生我跟委員報告工地放領跟漁電共生是兩件事情我們絕對不會說為了光電而去搞這個工地放領"},{"start":6051.647,"end":6077.059,"text":"因為工地放領事本來就有的政策然後透過這些政策可以讓有一些已經成豬的部分能夠有機會擁有自己的土地這個是我想是您說的這土地正義嘛但是不要把它直接連結到光電因為光電是兩件事情這段時間非常多的媒體啊跟這個社團已經出來呼籲了不要變成開貨門既然你也保證說不會開貨門就是要請你明確的去規範好不好這個"},{"start":6079.955,"end":6108.197,"text":"這沒有什麼好規範的啊工地放領之後又沒開了貨門民眾馬上就會看得到因為漁電共生有漁電共生本身的政策跟他的實施的申請的要件跟審查的機制嘛這兩件事情是不一樣的啊不是只有漁電共生啦就是你的工地放領以後這個農地以後是不是一定是農地農用我們贊成農地農用嘛可是不要弄成上面又去潑了光電板你要做防範嘛不是不是那你說不會部長你說不會我們就等著看"},{"start":6108.357,"end":6125.155,"text":"我說這是兩件事情喔我說這是兩件事情因為工地放年以後它變成私有財產的時候它如果符合光電的設置要點它這樣可以申請啊這是兩件事情喔跟現在目前所有的光電政策它不能把它攪在一起啊"},{"start":6125.97,"end":6150.027,"text":"那麼多的寫者專家已經是在提醒你就是說現在你工地換零是為了農地農用嘛對不對對啊那你就一定要弱死農地農用如果弄到後來很多去開了貨門一定是農地農用我們絕對不會因為 人民就會譴責你是我今天很明確的要求保定注意不要工地換零以後變成是弄到後來弄了很多光電板人民會注目而且真的這樣做的話會被譴責來最後問一個最簡單的因為謝玉鳳在趕時間啦那個廚藝的那個問題齁"},{"start":6156.573,"end":6160.359,"text":"除以養豬到底要會不會禁止 你在25號說本週要確定對不對 26號又說下個禮拜"},{"start":6164.5,"end":6191.898,"text":"到底要不要禁止我想這個禮拜的部分我們大原則大概已經確定大概因為防疫的關係我們大概會先禁用家戶廚餘但是廚藝養豬必須要有一個過渡所以我們也大方向我們會有一個落日但是這個落日要怎麼去讓這個豬農有時間去做一個轉型那這個部分因為牽扯到很多食物的執行細節所以家用的會禁止就對了"},{"start":6193.058,"end":6209.081,"text":"對因為家用的廚藝是風險最高的那是風險最高的餐廳的事業廚藝可能一段時間會引起 可是會有訂個購置就對了對我們會有一個如果大方向是這樣子的那我們還會跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通OK好這是很重要的決定OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝張慶愷委員質詢謝謝部長謝謝我們現在請謝一鳳委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":6227.108,"end":6230.969,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們請陳部長喂好陳部長我想要請問因為現在已經到了就是農收的時期了那我知道說你們今年度有開放就是增加農業移工8000人那你們現在農業部的資格和定寒平均發放的時程是幾天"},{"start":6258.298,"end":6278.117,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的移工從去年的一萬兩千人到現在變成兩萬人左右那整個移工的申請一部分是我們去確認他的資格最重要的是勞動部那邊要審核那過往勞動部那邊的審核的時間會比較長一點我們已經有寫他已經加速了那只要他那邊核定的話我們這邊就會來處理"},{"start":6279.258,"end":6296.44,"text":"所以我們大概一個月一個月是不是那這個東西你們已經協調好了嗎因為畢竟你知道採收是有一個期效性那你如果在申請的時期有延誤的話那對農民來講你增加人數根本沒有用"},{"start":6296.88,"end":6320.855,"text":"你要減少那個這個認定函的這個時間嘛就是說這個流程的時間那你們現在目前已經跟農業部有什麼樣的窗口謝謝委員的提醒我們跟勞動部已經有一個聯繫窗口而且針對這個如何加速這個從申請到核發的這個時間點那這個部分我想他們已經快很多了啦"},{"start":6321.215,"end":6349.598,"text":"好 那而且你們也降低申請的門檻嘛 對不對就是實用孤訓的門檻已經降低到0.1公頃以上我們是放寬啦 不要說降低 放寬啦對啦 放寬啦因為畢竟現在你知道現在缺工的問題很重嘛那因為我們雖然即便說你也是很致力在推廣就是智慧農業但是智慧農業的導入目前還沒有辦法很快速嘛"},{"start":6349.898,"end":6362.563,"text":"對不對因為這也有賴於農民共同的一些合作跟推動那也希望說這個部分我們繼續推動那智慧農業的推動的確就可以減少我們人力的需求的這個問題但是在這個過程當中這個"},{"start":6368.766,"end":6389.046,"text":"這個調整的過程當中我們還是需要有一些因應的措施這個短期之間我們這樣子一個農業移工的開放我想要確定就是說因為很多中小型的農戶也面臨到缺工的問題所以我才問你說你是不是有放寬0.1公頃以下的使用估訊"},{"start":6389.847,"end":6411.735,"text":"以及水到綠苗放寬到兩公頃我想詳細的那個幾公頃但是我那時候已經有處理就是說那個因為小農戶的部分他基本上包括養菇的部分我們都有往下降放寬他的一個門檻那那個門檻的詳細資料我再提供0.1分地吧"},{"start":6412.515,"end":6437.732,"text":"估計是0.1分地對那蔬菜果樹呢你要不要就是說有一些其他的項目你是不是也可以你們不知道也可以我可不可以事後再提供給您對因為是不是說對於其他品項的是不是也能夠放寬因為我們知道說現在不管是用盡什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":6438.793,"end":6462.067,"text":"的方法即便我們一直致力在推廣智慧農業上面那但是在人力的需求上面目前農村的人力需求人口的凋零然後老化的程度那我們的確需要一些這些移工的需求那你是不是能夠就是說開放多一點項目來確保這些小型的那個家庭農場"},{"start":6463.447,"end":6488.32,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那這個部分我想我們第一個就是我們年度都會滾動的檢討那剛才針對您所提到的一些部分我想我們也會專案的方式特別是剛才您提到的水稻的育苗的部分本來是要3公頃現在已經降到2公頃了那菇類的部分本來是0.5公頃那現在已經有降下來到0.1公頃那這個部分我想我們會一定會因為農民的需要而做一些調整"},{"start":6488.76,"end":6511.006,"text":"好那其他項目再麻煩你就是說一併的考量那再來就是是不是你們你跟農業部有沒有辦法協調出一個就是說一條龍的申請跟審查的機制就是不要讓農民看在哪一個單位申請或者是怎麼樣就是不要讓農民必須要兩頭跑這有沒有辦法"},{"start":6513.957,"end":6541.739,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是針對資格的部分然後勞動部那邊是針對一些他本身申請過來的移工的相關的這些人力跟他的條件的部分那現在我們已經有專門的聯繫窗口那您說的要一條龍單一的服務窗口我想農業部本身願意去協助我們的農民然後去追這個案子"},{"start":6542.179,"end":6554.738,"text":"好好用用用用去協調的案子來處理好再麻煩部長好不好是謝謝好謝謝謝謝依豐委員質詢我們現在請鄭天才委員質詢謝謝部長"},{"start":6573.832,"end":6600.406,"text":"主席有請部長我們請部長部長好這個研究法第19條特別規定這個在研究民族第7研究民族第7採集野生植物及菌類是可以以傳統文化自用來去申請"},{"start":6602.148,"end":6629.28,"text":"那我们的演习法第二条也特别定义了原住民族第七那森林法第十五条这个现行的条文是规定森林位于原住民族传统领域所以跟演习法是原住民族第七森林法十五条是写原住民族传统领域所以这个必须要修正在还没有修正之前"},{"start":6630.36,"end":6645.582,"text":"本席透过延期法34条你们也做了解释就是原住民族传统礼仪就是用原住民族地区就做了解释所以现在执行上都是用原住民族"},{"start":6646.443,"end":6665.721,"text":"第七所以这个法必须要配合修正这个野保法都配合修正了都改为原住民主第七了所以这个部分所以这个今天能够安排审查非常谢谢赵伟所以这个我们的依法行政来把它修正那现在是这样"},{"start":6667.381,"end":6694.684,"text":"还没有修正这个森林法之前那因为已经依延基法34条的规定来做了解释所以国有零产物处分规则第14条虽然森林法还没有修正可以先修正因为这里面的第14条的第7款第8款它的部分的"},{"start":6697.165,"end":6721.024,"text":"依前向第七款第八款第十一款才是以原住民保留地内更收小更收小传统力很大保留地更小所以尤其是尤其是我们平地原住民我们居住的地方不是不是原住民保留地"},{"start":6722.67,"end":6747.315,"text":"三地相二基本上是我們平地相不是所以這個部分都要配合延期法34條既然已經做了做了森林法的解釋所以這個部分也要配合現在就可以修正甚至在試用上現在就可以解釋試用所以這個部分農業部可以去處理嗎這應該可以好謝謝"},{"start":6751.65,"end":6778.473,"text":"好接下來這個我也有提這個修正動議這個漂流木的部分我們到時候在逐條討論的時候逐條討論的時候我們再一起再處理好我們現在這個就請部長因為這個跟那個水保署水保署有關係了這個我在"},{"start":6781.809,"end":6810.625,"text":"今年的7月22號有到義理召開協調會也去了會刊就針對這兩個就請這個農業部水保署這邊積極的來處理好不好我們會去現刊以後看看怎麼處理我們再來這個部分之前都有去勘查過了好接下來還是要談到這個馬太安溪菸澀府我們看這個"},{"start":6812.145,"end":6839.919,"text":"因為9月23號的這個潰壩一流造成這個光復鄉鳳林鎮以及這個萬隆鄉造成這樣的一個重大的災情而這個下游的就是經濟部所管轄的部分他們積極的在做相關的提防"},{"start":6840.862,"end":6869.52,"text":"河床的疏浚堤防要加固加高都在做但是他們還是擔心上面所以他們現在除了現有的堤防之外加固加高之外他們現在規劃第一個規劃要擴大這個河川七一線第二個要再做第二道的堤防就會"},{"start":6870.956,"end":6892.472,"text":"就会使用到农民的土地乡亲就觉得说我已经受害了我现在土地又要被你征收会这样的一个情形所以源头还重要源头很重要"},{"start":6893.342,"end":6916.69,"text":"在这样的一个情形之下马太厌西厌社府现在的现况跟9月23号的时候已经差很多了在这样的情形之下既然是差那么多已经小很多了但是这个崩塌地然后那个水每天要让它流而不是积水在那边"},{"start":6918.959,"end":6943.946,"text":"有时候真的是没有流水了什么要让这个水流光要把它流光这个就是要挖就是要挖按照你们的规划要从光复灵道上去我一直在说了这个对山林的会有很大的影响了所以而且要花14亿花14亿"},{"start":6948.693,"end":6966.56,"text":"這樣的一個情形是不是值得一定只有這個方法嗎所以我在之前諮詢的時候還有提出的這個立法院特別預算審查的主決議就是希望你們趕快找專業的團隊國內外的專業團隊能夠去解決這個"},{"start":6976.912,"end":7003.637,"text":"譬如說工群總隊曾經在2022年他們就用直升機吊掛這個挖土機上到另外一個地方類似像這樣的這樣的一個情形有沒有可能在這樣的一個地區裡面能夠去處理這個部分一定要積極的來處理去解決"},{"start":7007.083,"end":7012.75,"text":"用最快的方式是最好不然现在相信了他不敢重建了"},{"start":7013.733,"end":7039.941,"text":"萬一又潰壩又溢流是這樣部長是不是這個要積極的做我跟委員說明一下就是要怎麼樣到上游去做整治的部分除了林道以外也有一個方案是從溯溪上去的部分現在最重要的問題是邊波本身的不穩定度那之前沒有辦法用機具用吊掛的方式是因為土質鬆軟的部分那個種機具一下人下去就會陷下去了嘛"},{"start":7040.521,"end":7060.807,"text":"然後所以我們等汛期過後我們就會評估更多的方案最怕的是地震或是大豪雨把旁邊的邊坡又又崩下來的時候如果在那個時候施工的話就會影響到施工人員安全所以這個都是我們在考量的一個最安全的方案我想我們一定會努力去做"},{"start":7062.127,"end":7073.513,"text":"這個部分一定要積極地做才能根本地去解決整個災害地區好不好好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝鄭天才委員資訊謝謝部長 謝謝我們現在請鄭正前委員資訊"},{"start":7088.991,"end":7091.754,"text":"謝主席我想請一下農業部陳俊基部長請陳部長謝謝"},{"start":7100.604,"end":7124.427,"text":"部長好今年3月本席曾經問過農業部因為從110年3月就開始將生態系服務價值納入租金裡面的一部分可是因為沒有法律的依據所以當時農業部承諾6月底之前要完成法制化的一個動作請問一下部長現在進度如何"},{"start":7126.597,"end":7150.749,"text":"我們現在正在做法治的程序因為就像委員所說的就是生態服務本身就是一個有償的價值所以我們把生態服務會分成不同的樣態的部分包括這些給付的這些動作那這個動作一定要有法源是啊 當時說到6月底要完成現在已經到11月了11月底了已經延了5個月好像還沒出農業部"},{"start":7152.608,"end":7181.334,"text":"部長可不可以解釋一下為什麼我跟委員說明其實當初在做這個法制化的時候有牽涉到那個國土法有沒有4月實施因為配合國土法本身的不同的樣態的話我們的生態給物就可以去搭配變成堆疊式的那後來因為國土法實施的延後的部分那因為延後了以後後續的各地方政府在在劃設這個不同區位的時候你所套上去的生態的給物是可能會不一樣的部分"},{"start":7181.554,"end":7207.197,"text":"部長我理解不過因為既然說多了一個生態系服務價值要把它變成租金的一部分行政部門它只要是收稅收費基本上都要有一個非常明確的法律依據部長這是基本部長也同意嘛那現在從110年3月開始的時候你們已經開始收生態系服務價值變成租金的一部分顯然已經沒有按照"},{"start":7208.098,"end":7222.927,"text":"法規在執行這樣的一個收費的標準所以本席並沒有反對我們要做的事情只是希望說能夠盡快的把它完成法制化否則你多了一個生態系服務價值的時候比原本的租金多了兩三倍耶"},{"start":7223.627,"end":7251.988,"text":"那現在這四年多繳了這樣子的錢的那個成豬人的時候那他們在情何以堪你與法無據去收了這樣的一個費用那部長也覺得應該要把他給法治化那本席也支持希望盡快把這樣子的一個瑕疵補起來好不好了解我覺得真的您講的這個部分是針對礦業本身我們收的這個租金嘛然後這個部分我想我們跟礦務局這邊已經在一起我想我們會盡快啦"},{"start":7252.498,"end":7281.308,"text":"儘快 大概什麼時間 給我一個時間好不好我們11月底會先找礦業者去做溝通跟說明接下來就 多久多久今年年底 就今年12月底之前嘛好不好好那這個部分我們希望政府所有要收的費用都能夠依法有據 我覺得這是很重要的一個原則不要讓公務人員於法無據去"},{"start":7282.308,"end":7302.297,"text":"進行一個不當的收費的狀態那麼我接下來想請教一下因為行政院曾經核定新興族產業發展計畫新興族產業發展計畫這個部分其實也已經進行了很多年農業部這邊有建立一個台灣零產品生產追溯系統"},{"start":7303.237,"end":7318.072,"text":"那我想請問一下部長到目前為止就是主產業的部分一直沒有辦法納入我們零產品生產追溯系統當中為什麼可以請部長回應一下我可不可以請林保署署長說明"},{"start":7320.387,"end":7333.886,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經修訂了這個零產品生產追溯管理作業規範那在接下來明年1月1號就可以來實施了就會納入明年1月1號開始實施那因為在這個"},{"start":7337.54,"end":7355.866,"text":"在這個新興族產業發展計畫綱要裡面就是有特別提到說112年度林業試驗所他要成立一個族財資源及料源的一個資訊平台而且弄了1400萬到目前為止執行了沒"},{"start":7360.919,"end":7388.517,"text":"署長部長知不知道應該是有執行有執行嗎這個容我會後再了解這個112年部分我再提供給委員好因為這個很具體然後我們看到目前為止這個資訊平台那個署長說有其實我是沒有看到所以部長這邊會後再給本席辦公室一個很清楚的狀態因為這個部分我們很清楚的需要知道的是既然這個112年計畫到目前為止"},{"start":7391.019,"end":7415.375,"text":"那如果沒有完成它原因在哪裡那我們如何在這個平台還沒有建立之前的時候然後我們能夠對於整個台灣那個竹產業有更好的一個保障對消費者也有保障因為大家對竹筷子的安全性都會有很多很多的質疑目前網路上也很多會提到竹筷子的問題那我們希望這個部分能夠有效的來解決好不好 部長"},{"start":7416.115,"end":7441.674,"text":"可以好那接下來我想問一下就是毒蛋的問題因為蛋這個問題其實從六年前的時候我就開始提到了那芬普尼這件事情的時候那陸續就會一直有不定期就會爆發出來說可能會有含芬普尼這個蛋那我們對於這個部分的時候可不可以請部長"},{"start":7443.499,"end":7468.367,"text":"很清楚的跟我們說明一下為什麼芬普尼已經禁用了也禁用了六年了可是它還是不定期的就會爆發出來有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼而且其實坦白說政府都沒有辦法有效的把它追蹤回來因為蛋一下就被吃掉了這對國人的健康來說是一個很大的危害可不可以請部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":7469.367,"end":7498.563,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明就是蜂母泥是一個環境用藥它是一個殺蟲劑所以當你的禽社如果說你的環境比較差的時候或者是你的整個敘舍比較不好的時候你就有機會用到它去做這些環境的清理所以我們從農業部從過去幾年來我們一直提供這個敘舍的改建禽社的改建但是禽社的改建的部分因為現在地方政府要重新同意"},{"start":7499.083,"end":7517.356,"text":"然後大家都擔心林壁設施都這個改建的速度非常慢就是說即使他希望改建可是人家會認為他可能會擴建所以造成很多的困擾部長沒問題因為分譜你是環境用藥其實本席知道那植樹它不能用在畜牧上面"},{"start":7517.776,"end":7546.092,"text":"那也推了6年了可是目前還是不定期就會碰到毒彈的一個問題那本席認為環境部這邊有沒有去追蹤因為環境部有提出了幾種的一個合法合規的用藥對不對只是說因為這用藥的成本顯然是比分普尼高了非常的多而且可能是10倍20倍劑那以這種狀態來說我們農業部有沒有更具體的一個做法能夠改善這樣的一個情況讓毒彈"},{"start":7547.373,"end":7564.512,"text":"不會一而再再而三的出現我覺得第一個就農業部來講就是續型場域的環境的改善這個我想我們會加強那第二個部分其實就是後市場跟我們生產端本身的聯合集合這個也是非常重要的因為我們所有的雞蛋都有溯源碼"},{"start":7565.373,"end":7588.162,"text":"那溯源碼不是等到吃到肚子才去溯源是 部長你講得很好因為有集合的狀態的時候基本上來講我們只要按照他們比方說有多少的一個機織要用多少的一個相關的一個合法的一個藥我們就可以算出來如果說有養雞場他們用的合法用藥量不夠的時候我們是很容易把它稽查出來的"},{"start":7589.182,"end":7611.335,"text":"希望這個部分我們能夠更有效的一個稽查然後對於現在的一個法則會不會太輕或者是對於比方說我們合法用藥的部分的時候比用分普尼可能高達10倍20倍的狀態我們會不會有另外的一個補助希望能夠提高違法的一個成本然後提高合法的一個補助然後用更完整的一個稽查來解決這個問題部長可不可以"},{"start":7613.016,"end":7632.727,"text":"我想可以就是第一個擴大我們的聯合稽查所抽取的樣本數然後根據它的風險有的情社可能風險比較高那我們的稽查強度就會比較強用這種方式去遏阻然後情社的改建也會持續的來努力來協助OK 好 謝謝部長謝謝曾振淺委員的質詢謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":7634.844,"end":7646.89,"text":"我們現在請張家俊委員質詢我們在盧憲毅委員質詢完我們就休息五分鐘 謝謝好 謝謝主席我想請陳部長請陳部長委員好"},{"start":7655.799,"end":7672.197,"text":"部長早安非洲豬瘟到現在已經超過一個月了但是我們看到昨天韓國也爆發了今年第六起的非洲豬瘟的疫情他們將全國禁應48小時我必須告訴部長這真的非常嚴重我們從"},{"start":7677.643,"end":7702.064,"text":"10月22號起這個活豬禁運禁載然後同時禁止廚餘餵豬那這個疫調結果也顯示為落實這個廚餘真主就養豬用廚餘養豬這件事情是疫情爆發的主要原因這個您同意嗎對不對對我們疫調結果是這樣子對那我想要請問一下禁止廚餘養豬這個措施目前有要調整嗎"},{"start":7703.317,"end":7724.962,"text":"我想第一個部分就是大方向我先講大方向因為我們大概後面還有很多細節要處理第一個部分就是我們在禁止以後如果要重新開放我已經說過要符合落實證書及時監控跟法令以外地方政府要同意然後大方向的料源的部分我們會先針對家戶處理做禁止"},{"start":7725.182,"end":7734.296,"text":"那為什麼剛剛媒體都在報導說農業部打算在12月初開始有新的廚餘政策要開放事業廚餘呢"},{"start":7736.584,"end":7754.935,"text":"我說的是禁用家戶廚餘然後因為廚餘養豬必須要有一個過渡期所以你現在是在告訴我說事業廚餘裡面應該是不會有非洲豬瘟我覺得所有的防疫都是用風險的角度然後家戶廚餘的風險是最高的你現在是在幫"},{"start":7756.483,"end":7767.055,"text":"事業廚餘背書說他不可能是破口嗎我跟委員說明你不要用這種方式去影射我想要你正面說明啊我強調就是說我禁用家戶廚餘然後第二個部分就是你禁用家戶廚餘但是我還沒有講完我還沒有講完我還沒有講完可不可以讓我講完"},{"start":7776.926,"end":7796.529,"text":"你講第一個部分在過渡期的話我們會禁用加護廚因為廚藝養豬轉型需要一點時間然後最後我們會有個落日期就是全面禁用加護廚那預計什麼時候全面禁用因為預計禁用的部分可能跟後面的這些廚藝的再利用的部分我們在跟環境部正在討 正在處理部長"},{"start":7797.17,"end":7808.652,"text":"我必須要提醒您您是農業部的部長保障保護這些豬農才是你的第一要務為什麼你要把環境部的責任全部攬在你身上呢環境部怎麼樣處理廚餘是他的問題怎麼會你要幫他處理呢如果照委員這樣講農業部的立場之前就非常清楚了是原則禁止"},{"start":7820.902,"end":7846.088,"text":"然後你有落實徵主的條件的時候由地方政府發許可所以所有的開放廚餘是由地方政府去核發的你的意思是說那現在你說這些事業廚餘那要怎麼辦呢你現在是說你要開放事業廚餘是嗎我是說禁用家戶廚餘那你要開放事業廚餘嗎在過渡期的話它是可以使用要落實徵主"},{"start":7847.614,"end":7856.456,"text":"所以你就是要開放廚餘養豬的意思嗎我先問你一個問題過渡期是多久沒有過渡期是多久可以有一個大方向嗎我們大方向已經有了現在就是說在處理這個時間點這個在時間點我們必須再跟環境部然後我們還會再跟縣市政府的首長去做溝通我先舉一個例子好不好 部長"},{"start":7874.403,"end":7886.384,"text":"假設我想要請問一下事業廚餘是有包括餐廳嗎餐廳跟那個團散的部分都是屬於事業廚餘"},{"start":7887.384,"end":7900.71,"text":"所以餐廳好了 假設我這個餐廳的廚餘桶好 廚餘桶放在外面然後我隔壁鄰居把他的家戶廚餘拿來倒你有辦法分辨嗎你沒有辦法分辨嘛這個源頭分類就沒有辦法100%監控嘛我現在就告訴你說 假設我們還會有落實真主的即時監控"},{"start":7911.434,"end":7916.458,"text":"那你現在是在因為你知道嗎因為這8%的廚餘養豬不全面禁止的話就是其他的92%的飼料養豬戶都要一起承擔這非洲豬瘟的風險"},{"start":7926.647,"end":7932.61,"text":"是2000億產值的整個產業鏈耶你現在是要讓我們做半套的意思嗎就你說交互廚餘禁止然後你要開放事業廚餘你怎麼有辦法保證我說過了我們在過渡期是這樣處理過渡期是多久嘛過渡期的過渡的時間還要看後面的交互是多久嘛你至少給我們三年嗎 十年嗎"},{"start":7953.301,"end":7972.296,"text":"我們明確了以後就會對外說明那是什麼時候會明確嘛因為你今天都已經接受記者訪問了我告訴你今天我們本身我就講個大方向一個就是家務廚餘會禁用第二個我們會有弱智條款就是這樣子弱智條款所以那我想要請問說是不是假設這個事業廚餘真的去養豬了然後再發生非洲豬瘟誰要負責"},{"start":7978.325,"end":7993.777,"text":"我們所有的你沒有要負責嘛對不對我告訴你你也沒有要負責啊你也覺得跟你沒有關係啊反正農民的死活是他們家的事啊所有的廚餘再利用是由地方政府核發的我們會跟桃園市政府溝通我們會跟新北市政府溝通"},{"start":7995.422,"end":7997.344,"text":"對他們本身所以你的意思是說你要開放然後他們也開放如果假設開放如果有破口有這個非洲豬瘟在產生你現在在告訴我說跟你農業部沒有關係是不是"},{"start":8010.137,"end":8015.678,"text":"我從來沒有講這句話那否則誰要負責假設再爆發我問你假設再爆發你要不要下台負責你今天如果同意說再爆發你願意下台負責那我也沒有話說我也沒有話說如果你是願意負責的我沒有話說但是你願意負責嗎我們不會讓它發生"},{"start":8035.373,"end":8059.432,"text":"你現在是該告我掛保證嗎我沒有 我不會讓它發生你不會讓它發生所有的防疫是中央跟地方的責任你說這些失業廚餘不會變成破口假設變成破口再發生誰要負責你現在告訴我我告訴你 防疫是中央跟地方一起的責任對啊 那跟你沒有關係嗎當然有關係啊是不是你政策 你要先做出政策啊我政策講得非常清楚啦你的政策"},{"start":8059.912,"end":8067.157,"text":"這就是要開放事業廚餘嘛我現在要求你說你如果可以保證說這不會是破口的話如果是破口如果假設廚藝養豬又發生非洲豬瘟爆發你要負責嗎你願意負責嗎沒有我知道是負責我問你嘛你願意負責嗎你可以下台嗎你下台也救不了這些豬農"},{"start":8087.39,"end":8096.119,"text":"你知道你做的這個決定 影響多少人嗎我跟委員說明喔 防疫是中央政府一起努力的是 可是你願意 你願意允許 允許事業廚餘這是在防疫嗎 這是在防疫嗎我跟你講 非洲豬瘟的你現在告訴我說 事業廚餘不會是破口"},{"start":8109.676,"end":8116.039,"text":"你聽一聽你自己相信嗎我說風險我現在就告訴你說你自己相信嗎他說風險的高低他是零風險嗎風險有高有低沒有零的那他是高還是低我告訴你我就聽你說家務廚餘是低的家務廚餘是高的事業廚餘是低的"},{"start":8126.203,"end":8131.266,"text":"但他也是有風險啊我現在就問你說假設這個是破口假設他變成破口你要不要負責如果委員今天到中國去或是其他地方到養殖場再進來的話也有可能傳播你在講什麼東西我在跟你講什麼東西你在跟我講什麼東西你頭腦清楚好好想一想說這個非洲豬瘟會影響多少人的生計會有多少人的死活因為你開放"},{"start":8154.358,"end":8177.375,"text":"事業廚餘被影響 我現在就告訴你你要記得 這是你的責任如果有人因為非洲豬瘟爆發 家破人亡就是你的責任中央跟地方政府的防疫是要一起的是要一起啊 那你要允許他是不可以的謝謝 謝謝我們現在請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":8186.783,"end":8210.52,"text":"主席好 那現在有請我們陳部長我們請陳部長部長好部長好 我剛才聽您的質詢我聽了一句話 我覺得很莫名其妙說我們如果到中國大陸去看了也是非洲豬人帶進來"},{"start":8212.382,"end":8231.514,"text":"顏色太重了 到日本有沒有到美國有沒有 到越南有沒有我跟委員報告喔 不要這樣舉例不是 你要聽我講一分鐘就好非洲豬瘟的傳播除了廚藝以外還有人員的接觸你如果到養豬場 進去養豬場也有可能帶來 我是指這個沒有啊 我跟你講啦"},{"start":8233.462,"end":8261.068,"text":"從其他非洲豬瘟從其他非洲其他國家非洲豬瘟爆發也有非常多的人員的接觸中國大陸就會把非洲豬瘟帶進來我不知道你這個舉例怎麼樣因為你是學者之身的我們的理論要很中道也要有那個對 我就是跟您講說非洲豬瘟的傳遞除了廚藝還有很多很多的方式你頭腦的意識永遠在這個對立之中啊認知的一個問題"},{"start":8263.171,"end":8290.809,"text":"我們做事情 尤其是這個基地跟我們的宿舍大家都很注意好不好 報紙借訊 借訊其他國家有非常多的就是因為人員的傳遞才造成非洲豬瘟的爆發保留 你要跟我去燕尼醫院嗎來 圖片出來好 你大概聽你說你大概沒有看過萬里長城也沒有做過但是我們萬里長沙"},{"start":8293.916,"end":8299.418,"text":"我希望你有機會 以前跟我去會館過 110年3月辦理會館現在東北季風就大量帶來風沙 連漁港的道路跟漁港都進出困難"},{"start":8314.895,"end":8338.961,"text":"再來這裡比較重要的風波的事件都吹入民宅很嚴重的我這個問題要把你拿過去那邊有來處理但是處理的效果不怎麼好當初我處理的方式是1月時協助清醫0月時同意重新檢定這個"},{"start":8341.857,"end":8344.764,"text":"砂作業的標準就是加深"},{"start":8346.311,"end":8374.936,"text":"降瓦一個深度 為2公尺壓到3公尺下去但是壓到這幾個實驗那個風沙MO我們的港口情形沒有得到實質的改善我現在看這張照片現在的沙冰就這樣了應該防信步道都不能走路了整個都掩埋起來了所以對於總體的背景"},{"start":8376.456,"end":8390.981,"text":"總的移民就十分困擾但是裡面是有時候依照自己的方法來做所以在這裡面我們當地的移民 給我建議說看你們在苑港 移港北邊的養殖區"},{"start":8393.446,"end":8421.98,"text":"靠外面的淺灘先定沙南邊的堤防的飄沙就會減少再來栽植木馬房跟黃瓊室我常常想這個問題你剛才說的中國大陸我自己想那中國大陸在沙漠立法已經做得非常成功人家大片的土地那個沙漠的地區已經立法很成功我們台灣要抗"},{"start":8423.161,"end":8428.171,"text":"鄉中寶台 海邊的沙灘雨沙幾十年都沒辦法人家處理你也想一個撇步出來想一個我們的港府"},{"start":8433.633,"end":8458.674,"text":"報告委員 你說旺嶺長沙怎麼跑到抗中保台去了那我想基本上我們會重視這個問題特別是您剛才講的漁港的北側本身你如果去做這些藍沙的話它是有限的但是林保署每一年他會持續做定沙這個動作那現在有一些地背現在開始逐漸的穩定那穩定了以後我們就會後面就會比較減少這個部分它不需要一點時間"},{"start":8459.815,"end":8471.732,"text":"我不知道有沒有穩定啦但是沒有全部穩定刷又硬起來 沒有一定穩定以前有穩定都被刷的都被刷的 都被硬埋過了有跟委員有嘛 要去看嘛"},{"start":8473.15,"end":8490.502,"text":"我們現場來看嗎我們現場來會刊我們的林市長你應徵又有能力這條看你的改革貼一條卸條來去你的港府人家中國大陸的沙漠立法都那麼成功了還不管從何時怎樣引進各種方式都要改進"},{"start":8491.567,"end":8514.195,"text":"不要自以為很滿足啊我們都要去學習人家長度看他怎麼做但是這台機器裡面有特別建議在縣理事的那一代去設沙場帶透過縣理事的潮汐把沙這樣打出來你知道他們的經驗很深科技考慮真的這一次要解決了"},{"start":8515.055,"end":8515.216,"text":"誰敢講這樣子"},{"start":8531.334,"end":8532.374,"text":"每一個都跟我反映"},{"start":8547.281,"end":8568.67,"text":"他認為我有解決這個問題的能力 但是反映到現在就沒有改觀所有臉上無光 整個部長 市長臉上無光沒有 這個部分要一步一步啦 我想我們後續會來...好 我來解釋一下時間那今天談到森林法 林市長講過幾十年了 我從來沒有改進"},{"start":8569.949,"end":8594.295,"text":"我們森林法規定不管不論都市計畫中還是非都市計畫中的山坡地開發都須繳納回饋金都市計畫內我現在跟你討論都市計畫內所以我這次要提出48條之一的修法希望"},{"start":8595.578,"end":8618.123,"text":"都市計畫中的山坡地不用繳納山坡地利用的開花回饋金這我講了幾年因為我那特別嚴重苗栗縣的山坡地佔了85%的責任臨時我們也爭論了好幾次我說啊造林並不是"},{"start":8619.588,"end":8636.764,"text":"都市計畫內山坡地持有者的責任照理不是全民照理嗎阿你怎麼叫我們山坡地山坡地的都市計畫開發裡面就又受到了很多的限制尤其我們廟裡管池熱 池燃"},{"start":8638.837,"end":8654.087,"text":"厚隆通宵宴旅海边的地方大概比较平其他的都山坡地85%我们交情交到5万名来来来你那个回馈金一年收了多少钱你们的小金库你从来不放"},{"start":8654.887,"end":8658.088,"text":"我們有很多東西就會回到獎勵造齡的這些幾戶又回到給造齡者啊"},{"start":8675.874,"end":8699.238,"text":"回到哲教你們的大家的責任安裝我都市計畫的山坡地我要特別回饋我跟委員報告回饋金如果政府是議題的話我不是跟你討回饋金啦我感覺這樣對於都市計畫內的山坡地的開發者尤其對我們苗栗非常不公平啦師兄你講一下"},{"start":8702.952,"end":8723.079,"text":"你給我這樣討論幾年這樣現在給我後悔後悔說都會改過因為這個山坡地它是山坡地回饋金它是減少破地抑制破地災害的發生所以用造林發生所以破地沒有分是都市計畫或者是非都市計畫基本上它是山坡地這個是當時地這個定這個的意志你不能用這樣來講嘛造林是大家的責任嘛為什麼只有"},{"start":8731.022,"end":8757.783,"text":"都市計畫內山坡地的人要特別去繳這筆錢沒有 委員你應該記得前幾天農委會也曾經幫忙過縮減了苗栗縣的那個山坡地的範圍沒有 沒有 其他很多山坡地你告訴我你知不知道你怎麼不知道那個就是客觀沒有辦法那個沒有 我很羞嘛不然你拿你的方案出來你拿你跟我收掉他這個就是依據山坡地的範圍內跟我苗栗縣都市計畫內的山坡地收了多少你跟我講"},{"start":8759.076,"end":8777.138,"text":"我每次都相信你 你會改進啦但是你這樣都迷迷糊糊這樣給我扶著就過了現在我真的要認真的檢討我們會很清楚的跟您報告過去這幾年這個之前我們都有跟您報告過你有報告過 對但是就不怕嘛 大家這樣我剛才就跟你們說他不是依據"},{"start":8777.839,"end":8804.85,"text":"非都或都市計畫的山坡地它山坡地是一體它是為了要防災啊你別這樣啦照領全民的責任嘛這個是當時例子的法律不然你平地也要拉山坡地走嘛平地也要拉照領市山坡地的人的責任嘛這個是意志破地災你別這樣說我不承認這個照領市全民的責任我們在最後再跟委員溝通啦好不好我跟妳說不然溝通這次我提出來我願意跟妳修改合理一點"},{"start":8807.506,"end":8822.131,"text":"你不肯這樣忽略一年 再過一年我一直覺得你們很實在結果我發覺都很不實在感覺我跟老師 你就要跟我那樣這樣忽略就過了不會啦 不會啦 我們不會這樣想啦我想我朋友都差不多這樣啦好嗎 這點要好好做 謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員的質詢謝謝 謝謝部長我們現在請盧憲毅委員質詢"},{"start":8839.008,"end":8851.885,"text":"这期我们让部长休息一下我们请林保署署长跟袁明慧委员好"},{"start":8852.725,"end":8877.576,"text":"好 署長好在進入主題之前我們還是回顧一下我們原住民傳統領域從清朝到現在的一個落差當然我不是說試圖要把它弄回來這樣可是要讓國人知道以前在清朝的時候是這樣子綠色的範圍有這麼大在日治時期就是1901年的調查的時候我們的傳統領域範圍大概還是有台灣的五成就是"},{"start":8878.416,"end":8896.808,"text":"然後到了民國政府來了以後反而變得更少而且是最少只有大概7.1%也就是大概26.4萬公頃我們剛剛看到我們的COP30剛剛結束在巴西他們對我們熱帶森林永續基金有一個20%"},{"start":8899.75,"end":8922.603,"text":"的一个提拨给当地的原住民只要对森林永续的有贡献他大概就有一定的规模是这样可是反观我们国内目前我们的温室气体基金连一个委员连一个原住民都没有更何况是这个所谓的比例在我们未来的规划没有看到对原住民的一些贡献那我们增订这个"},{"start":8923.343,"end":8948.242,"text":"条文大概就是在九条之一的时候我大概有看到你们的回复就是说建议不纳入可是你们的思考的逻辑可能是说会妨碍到私有领这个部分不过我们就看到我们今年在最高行政法院的判决在6月25号的时候他说传统领域应该含有私有地这样的一个逻辑的时候所以我们就常常在看到我们"},{"start":8948.755,"end":8971.03,"text":"在信义乡或者是万荣乡仁爱乡或者是其他有地热或者是矿产的这些国有林我们在看到当地的跟就是跟当地的原住民没有事先的沟通所以我是希望这个契机可以掌握住希望原民会能够定定一个制度就是说"},{"start":8971.823,"end":8999.879,"text":"因为以后会一而再再而生发生这样子一个在我们传统领域里面不论是公有地或者私有地的一个争议就是希望能够有一个智商同意就是希望有一个如何行使它这样的一个权利所以应该这个问题发生的时候应该原民会跟农业部或者林保署这边要去如何去制定同意权如何行使这样的让它一个制度化"},{"start":9000.379,"end":9029.223,"text":"而不是一而再再而三發生這樣的事情就會說你們沒有行使部落同意然後呢就回歸到原點應該是你有看到這樣的事情發生的時候我們林保署跟園民會應該要主動的來積極來從事這樣的一個行使同意的一個方法那上次在新義鄉發生這個事情為什麼會讓人詬病呢就是他因為把這個主導權放到給鄉公所可是鄉公所他沒有這樣方面的經驗園民會也沒有去中央去"},{"start":9029.83,"end":9047.558,"text":"去指导他所以你让一个承办人去做这么防守的工作他根本就做不来他因为业者的一个要求他就每三个月就做一次有这样的一个行使同意的方法最主要跟署长要说的就是说你不能让这个事情"},{"start":9048.157,"end":9066.303,"text":"在公有林跟私有林这个范围里面如果是涉及到传统领域的时候不能让它一而再再发生是要行使部落同意的时候你们没有版本在那里你们也没有跟原民会去研究说我们这个制度要如何去进行那我先听听你的想法"},{"start":9067.176,"end":9089.614,"text":"那個委員跟您報告一下其實我們很尊重原基法尤其是四類需要諮商同意的我們連人工林的書法其實都會跟在地部落去說明取得同意那我們這個為什麼建議說先不要納入修法是因為實際上會在這個我們的郭林區施工的很多都是部落他們要接水管拉水路"},{"start":9090.234,"end":9119.057,"text":"所以未來如果是連這個都要諮商同意反而會影響到其實衝擊最大是部落自治所以我的意思說這兩個制度是什麼樣的規模的時候你要尋求部落同意所以原民會這邊應該要努力去跟對 原民會那四項還蠻清楚的就資源利用然後這個開發土地開發什麼的對 所以我的意思是像這種小型的施工你把它納入其實真的會反而衝擊到所以我的意思是一定的規模是什麼樣的程度我覺得這個部分應該是可以討論"},{"start":9120.839,"end":9144.299,"text":"第二个就是我的修正就是在第四五条希望能够不受一个月清理的一个助纪限制因为我们肯定昨天屏东地方法院对我们原住民几个猎人判不罪就是说我们狩猎除罪化的这个原则就是我们只要在因为是传统文化非盈利之用这个范围的时候"},{"start":9145.079,"end":9172.953,"text":"打烈士不受这个刑法的一个限制那如果说以后发生像有漂流木这些事情如果说你们是你们的建议是说一个月内因为基据要清运然后可能会不宜让民众进入不过如果你把原罪名当作是一个森林的守护者的时候我们也不是用基据去债我们是用我们传统的一个文化或者说非盈利之用的时候我觉得这一个月的这个限制应该要删除"},{"start":9174.293,"end":9199.383,"text":"跟委員報告這一個月是最長而且其實就是清理前我們現在實際上大概都在一個禮拜如果真的量多最多也就在兩個禮拜我們盡可能清完之後我們可以跟委員把個案跟報告那這個真的是為了安全因為在清理的階段那個怪手在那上面走來走去那很容易對減食的人會發生傷害那我是希望說讓我們有這名參與或者說"},{"start":9201.468,"end":9217.851,"text":"这个机制能够一开放来探讨都会先让涉及在地的原住民先优先一个礼拜这个也是现有的好 那我们就继续努力是 谢谢谢谢卢修一委员的咨询谢谢 谢谢署长 谢谢我们休息五分钟 谢谢"},{"start":9257.143,"end":9257.483,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9525.982,"end":9530.465,"text":"謝謝 我們開始開會請我們的同仁回到我們的位置上好 我們現在請我們呂玉玲委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9555.221,"end":9570.186,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長委員好部長今天我們特別排了這個森林法的修正草案"},{"start":9570.953,"end":9595.566,"text":"那最重要的方向就是要來遏止這個盜採這個盜伐的這個問題還有就是故意縱火森林縱火的這個行為最重要就要提高這個伐源來嚇阻這個作用那在森林娛樂區跟我們自然的保護區的這個餵養餵食野生動物這個方面的話我們卻沒有這個法則"},{"start":9596.748,"end":9603.386,"text":"所以我要本席想請教部長那如果說在餵養野生動物的時候會發生哪些問題"},{"start":9605.635,"end":9633.905,"text":"第一個部分就是你餵食野生動物的時候可能會造成一些野生動物除了野生動物以外還有一些可能的家犬或者其他進去會造成野生動物跟一般的家犬會造成一些衝突第二個部分就是其實野生動物就應該自然覓食你如果去餵養的時候會導致一些可能在我們在人在爬山的過程中它就會接近我們的人會造成一些更大的一個危害"},{"start":9634.785,"end":9656.829,"text":"還有一些疾病的傳播也會是 部長最重要是說近年來許多民眾出外踏青那我們看到一些野生動物像猕猴還是松鼠野鳥的部分他們來覓食覓食之後的話就讓這些動物會喪失了覓食的這個能力太過於依賴我們人類但是人跟動物之間就會產生了這個衝突跟這個競爭的這個"},{"start":9662.684,"end":9676.492,"text":"爭議衝突的時候這個情況的話我們要保護人類的話所以我們在這個很多的法都有規範在像一般在我們地方的話像就公園的自治管理條例會去規範說禁止餵養"},{"start":9677.332,"end":9696.377,"text":"那我们国家管理法的话国家公务员管理法它也是有规范但是我们的森林法对于这个森林游乐区跟自然保护区里面就没有这个规范有这个落差那所以我们希望说我们在这个森林法这边就可以要强调一下把它规范进去补这个漏洞您支持这个"},{"start":9696.937,"end":9712.436,"text":"我想基本上我們絕對支持也尊重委員的這些提議因為很多委員提到那我在這邊也跟委員說明當初我們這個修法的版本是為了山林的壓力一些生態壓力但是因為行政部門的這些法律的修正的時候"},{"start":9713.297,"end":9740.196,"text":"会经过非常多的程序但是这几年来又有更多的这些环境的压力或者是您刚才讲的喂养的压力来的时候我们没有办法就是说再退回来再重新修正所以委员在提案的时候我想我们一定会尊重跟支持基于我们要保护动物的健康跟民众的安全这个漏洞我们必须把这规范补上来好不好好 接下来要跟部长提的就是我们10月22号这个非洲"},{"start":9741.939,"end":9763.495,"text":"这个非洲这个猪瘟这个疫情的发生之后的话我们看这个情况可能是单一的个案那可能就是这个我们除以没有高温去增足而产生的那现在请问一下因为我们已经解除这个禁运了但是这个除以这个法令并没有解除那大概有明确的时间什么时候解除吗"},{"start":9764.042,"end":9779.305,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在如果要處理廚餘養豬是不是非副廚餘養豬這個部分我之前有說過了必須要落實徵組然後落實監控完整的立即的監控還有法令的部分特別是罰款的部分會處理然後還有一個地方政府"},{"start":9779.966,"end":9806.306,"text":"同意但是料源的部分因為我們大方向會有一個有一個落日條款有個落日那這個落日期間的過渡期間是讓我們的豬農廚養豬戶有一個轉型的機會那轉型的輔導我們農業部已經準備好相關的方案的部分那我們在這個過渡期間會禁止家戶廚餘進到所謂的因為家戶廚餘是風險最高的部分我們是從風險的角度來處理"},{"start":9806.766,"end":9830.985,"text":"就要加強管理跟守護這個我們廚餘不要再發生這個有問題那部長你提到說未來會循序漸進有家庭廚餘跟我們事業廚餘你會先禁止這家庭廚餘那未來事業廚餘的部分的話你們也會循序漸進但是我們為了這個廚餘要禁止的話很多方面的各層各面都要去考量到但原規正傳"},{"start":9831.705,"end":9860.906,"text":"这就会增加猪农的成本对不对这个成本很高啊因为大部分的飼料都是黄小玉吧吃黄小玉的成本的话这部分的话我们未来对这个飼料的补助会继续呢我想在这个禁止期间我们会我们已经在从事这个这个价差的一个补贴了然后后续如果要转型成飼料的时候我们会给予一个飼料的转型的这些费用包括它的飼料的这些生产的基本的设备我们也会给予补助"},{"start":9861.386,"end":9866.647,"text":"我們有一個比114年還優渥的一個方案所以還是會繼續飼料補助減輕他們營運的壓力對不對就是過渡期我們會來處理這個部分還有就是你的廚餘未來的廚餘廚餘跟我們現在的環境也跟民眾非常有關係如果說這個廚餘有很多種除了餵豬以外它還可以做發電或堆肥"},{"start":9885.031,"end":9906.512,"text":"那現在目前來講的話在台中跟我們桃園這邊的話就發電的這個設備那還有多堆肥的話在台南的話有兩個區域叫新化跟晨溪這個有高速廚餘的發酵場但是未來你要全面禁止廚餘的情況下你循序漸進這些設備你都是要去把建置好來吧"},{"start":9907.498,"end":9935.36,"text":"我想這個就是我們跟環境部所一直在討論的部分您剛才講到一個重點就是說禁止廚餘養豬這個部分我想農業部的一個職責但是在考慮到它的時程的時候必須考慮到廚餘如果沒有妥善處理會造成環境的壓力那這個部分像您所在的桃園市政府桃園市的部分本身是廚餘養豬大戶所以我們怎麼樣讓它有系統的轉換成飼料的部分是我們一直關切的"},{"start":9935.88,"end":9950.799,"text":"所以部長我們希望說你可以再跟環境部進行跨部會的討論加強這廚藝可以能源化跟我們肥料化這兩方面的層面來運用我所知道環境部一直在積極的規劃這個部分是 這才可以徹底解決問題"},{"start":9952.862,"end":9970.2,"text":"因為你加強這個能源的話又可以發電但是現在大部分你在禁止廚藝的時候這些都放到焚化爐去閃燒這不是長久之計啦因為焚化爐是燒垃圾的所以我們希望你未來的話在這廚藝能源化跟這個肥料化這兩方面要加強這個廠製的這個設置才能去"},{"start":9974.044,"end":9999.663,"text":"確實的解決這些問題才能夠解決民眾的疑慮跟我們整個環境整個整體的關鍵好不好這需要大家一起來努力然後我們也會跟環境部特別是進到焚化爐的部分那基本上它如果跟垃圾混在一起的時候大概10%是可以的但是相對的混在一起的話以現在的我所知道的資訊大概10%那現在只有3%那相對的就是除於要進到焚化的部分"},{"start":10000.443,"end":10024.41,"text":"可能跟水分也有关系所以前端的从厨余的收取要有一个重新的设计所以我们还是要分开来对 还是要分流甚至中心来发电或者是说我们来堆肥等等这些都可以解决对 这也是我们一直在讨论的地方好 那就加油好 谢谢谢谢 谢谢吕玉玲委员的咨询谢谢部长我们现在请张亚玲委员咨询"},{"start":10034.242,"end":10047.498,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長我們請部長我也好部長好我想先請教部長一件事情就是說"},{"start":10050.488,"end":10070.866,"text":"我們現在其實在常常在講生態樂區這個名詞但是國際上在談的生態樂區是有一個精準的定義就是說它具有高度生物多樣性的核心區域它的多樣性包含了物種棲地與生態系等層次但是我們現在動保司講的生態樂區卻是受遊蕩犬"},{"start":10074.169,"end":10095.852,"text":"侵擾度來去劃設所以本質上其實不是同一個概念那我也知道說目前動保司正在重整所有關於受這個遊蕩犬侵擾的資料所以我也認為說我們未來是不是應該要重整這些圖資資料把樂區精準的去命名成為是衝突樂區也就是把人犬野生動物以及農村等"},{"start":10096.773,"end":10121.096,"text":"這些資料來重整後進行管理而不是說放上了一個生態學的語彙可是卻跟科學定義來脫節因為我想要強調農業部不管是我們在講馬太安的這個溢流或者是到最近非洲豬瘟的處理我們都是秉持一個科學的概念所以我們應該在這件事情上面也要跟科學來做一個連結這個部分是可以的嗎"},{"start":10122.54,"end":10141.352,"text":"我跟委員報告我現在正在要求我們同仁您剛才講的兩個一個是人犬就是犬屍跟食物或是野生動物的衝突區另外一個就是野生動物本身的活動區高度的活動區這兩個熱區概念不一樣但是應該把它Mapping在一起以後"},{"start":10141.912,"end":10170.172,"text":"去做一個最大化的一個最佳化的一個熱區的一個範圍的界定我覺得這個是一個非常重要的所以我想釐清一下部長您說的意思就是說因為我們現在也非常清楚的知道因為這個人犬衝突也非常多就像上次我講的彰化鹿港的這個案例一個沙坑裡面有23隻遊蕩犬那再來還有最近這個黑面疲勞在嘉義這都有捕捉到非常多的畫面你是說像這樣子不管是農損野生動物的人犬的你全部都會把它做一個"},{"start":10171.033,"end":10189.125,"text":"精準的整合 對嗎所以會變成之後我們可以把這個熱區精準命名為衝突熱區嗎對 而且這個衝突熱區我跟他們討論過衝突熱區也有一些季節性的像黑麵皮路它在特定的季節來的時候那個熱區平台可能沒有但是如果黑麵皮路來進行那個"},{"start":10190.306,"end":10205.563,"text":"遷移的時候 那個地方就應該更高度的去做一些警戒跟樂區的劃設啦可是這樣聽起來樂區是在春夏秋冬四季會有不同的樂區嗎樂區是在我們的管理作為會因為季節性而有不同的強度"},{"start":10208.185,"end":10228.854,"text":"那我也想要再請教一下因為我現在在看這個因為這個動保法裡面嘛我們之前也一直有在講說這個衝突樂區啊我們是想要把它定義清楚啦那我們就去看了一下這個衝突樂區目前呢動保司是說五次啦五次就會把它劃進去算是一個樂區那我想知道這個利潤基礎是什麼"},{"start":10229.915,"end":10243.334,"text":"我这个可不可以请我们邓老师回应好哦 简短回应谢谢那个跟委员报告因为我们有统计过大概平均那个区域大概以往大概都是三次左右所以我们拉的数字是拉五次就超高于平均值的这个数字"},{"start":10244.408,"end":10264.34,"text":"這不是平均值就是我們看大部分都是三次為什麼要高於五次被拉到到五次呢因為我們從我們的資料的背景來看的話五次的部分大概因為我們扣掉有些是重複通報的所以大概以案件數跟捕捉數來看的話那五次是目前認為是說頻率比較高當然這個門檻可以去做檢討"},{"start":10267.502,"end":10287.876,"text":"對 這個門檻我希望可以提供給我一個報告好不好讓我知道這個門檻到底是什麼設定然後我們跟誰討論出來因為剛剛說有基於一些討論嘛那跟誰討論 如何討論出來這個數字因為我想這到底是五次 三次 一次我想也不是這邊在話說喊價啦應該還是基於科學的部分好 那再來往下延伸就是說我們現在呢在這個"},{"start":10289.477,"end":10303.806,"text":"即便說我今天畫了樂趣啦我們還是要有實質的作為不然我們還是會看到一直不停的有各種是生命財產的損失所以我想這個部分我們後面因為時間已經到了所以我們"},{"start":10304.787,"end":10323.283,"text":"就之後繼續討論但是我想先要求一件事情就是我們石虎樂區其實已經在改變了生態已經在移動因為我們最近在阿里山上面也有發現所以我們是不是可以有定期更新的機制呢以及我們最近也有發現穿山甲的受侵擾的次數也是越來越多是不是也可以增列穿山甲的部分"},{"start":10323.963,"end":10342.711,"text":"我跟委員報告這也是我跟我們內部在討論的時候包括熱區我覺得一定要有一個定期的更新因為當你的森林的生態系越好的時候這些野生動物可能它的活動範圍會越大會跟以前不一樣所以我非常支持有時候可能是變壞了所以開始往"},{"start":10344.532,"end":10370.397,"text":"變好就是說變好以後他可能就會擴大他的範圍所以針對這些食物或者是您剛才說的穿山甲穿山甲的部分都應該有一個定期更新的一個機制對所以這個部分的話我們是已經有一些相關的規劃了嗎如何的怎麼樣多多頻繁是有一些相關的規劃了嗎可不可以容我我再跟我們同仁確認他的更新的頻度以後再跟您說明一下我們可以來去追蹤後續給我個時間好嗎"},{"start":10373.989,"end":10391.186,"text":"兩個禮拜以後我想年底啦年底之前我想我們就可以可以跟您說明兩個禮拜到年底是差很多時間的看起來動保室都OK的啦就兩個禮拜好不好年底其實就一個禮拜而已我都希望他們越快越好沒關係兩個禮拜就兩個禮拜好謝謝喔謝謝喔姚琳謝謝還有我們部長謝謝喔我們現在請陳培鈺陳培鈺陳培鈺委員不在我們請吳麗華委員"},{"start":10410.579,"end":10430.402,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長或林保署長都可以我們請部長跟署長其中一位就可以了因為部長很辛苦委員好謝謝部長部長在南投信義鄉有一個叫丹大林道您應該很清楚了解"},{"start":10431.222,"end":10457.51,"text":"這個丹大林道其實前些年爭議也很多最主要的原因是開放山林之後那個地方因為有個七彩湖所以登山客非常的多因此也很自然的在地人會很想發展一些高山的產業例如高山機車接駁之類的另外一個衝突是說也很多外地人"},{"start":10458.072,"end":10460.024,"text":"他們也很想騎自行車上去 騎機車上去"},{"start":10461.894,"end":10490.833,"text":"但是就會發生一些像曾經有個騎士他就墜谷死亡所以亂象非常的多包括帶來的垃圾等等那在這裡其實我過去也有這樣的一個協助的經驗就是在屏東霧台鄉有一個很有名的大午的哈游溪他那時候其實也是製造很多衝突就是外地人想要進來"},{"start":10492.534,"end":10509.425,"text":"那在地人呢也有阻擋的行為但是因為都沒有法制可以處理所以當時我還在縣政府擔任處長的時候呢我就建議左手來協助他們去規劃自然人文生態景觀區因為看起來"},{"start":10511.866,"end":10528.665,"text":"要有法才好管理那没有法的时候真的很难去介入很难管理就会引发很多的冲突那我也很高兴这个单大领导的冲突那个时候他们也有找我澄清所以跟领保署的南投分署"},{"start":10529.446,"end":10549.26,"text":"也去建議在地人那他們後來也接納就是去化設野生動物保護區那也做過公聽會那七彩湖另外一端的就是花蓮萬榮鄉那邊花蓮分署也有協助我現在先請教一下不曉得目前的進度如何這個部分的"},{"start":10553.032,"end":10569.892,"text":"跟委員報告這部分委員應該也清楚完全是由下而上由跟這個相關部落來討論保護區的劃設那目前這個保護區的劃設範圍還有它的這個管制的計畫都已經完成了那在之前"},{"start":10570.533,"end":10586.526,"text":"因為七彩湖還有整個丹大山區也是台灣非常多人會登山的這個區域所以也是一個很重要的利害關係人所以前面我們邀集了國內相關的登山團體就未來可能的這個管制的這個方向來跟他們研商"},{"start":10587.066,"end":10608.131,"text":"中整大一間現在也差不多到最後階段了我們現在預計在應該在明年初就可以來公告這個保護區了非常感謝這樣子進度算不錯那再請教一下因為如果說有這樣的一個保護區就會要有一個保育計畫書嗎"},{"start":10609.951,"end":10633.01,"text":"會來訂定規則嘛那我看到草案他提到核心區的特別管制項目是除緊急救災及公務需要 禁止動力車輛進入且不得騷擾 獵捕 錘掉或宰殺野生動物那另外緩衝區跟永續利用區他的規定是非經主管機關許可 禁止動力車進入"},{"start":10634.972,"end":10643.964,"text":"所以我其實只是想要問一下那未來訂定這個保育計畫之後對在地原住民有什麼跟人家資格不一樣的嗎"},{"start":10645.351,"end":10668.079,"text":"在地居民本來因為那邊本來就是主居地或是他們經常活動的地方所以他們的日常活動是不受這個影響的那請教一下那其實他們長期以來其實最訴求的就是希望可以發展出高山機車接駁那你們林保署有沒有什麼樣的一個輔導規劃我們現在是在協助用四輪的車輛因為機車太危險了"},{"start":10670,"end":10696.126,"text":"所以我們現在也協助已經租賃了車輛所以這個會變成未來部落協作產業很大的一個提升這個都是我們跟部落一起來進行那其實我談到這個也跟我今天的修法有關係因為過去我們沒有這樣子劃設的時候沒有法可以管的時候那在我們的森林法也沒有寫明的時候通常我們都會在地人甚至你們自己林保署也會設路障"},{"start":10697.266,"end":10720.735,"text":"找保七來協助用社委法來開罰那我們在地人的話大概就是涉陸障所以引發很多的衝突所以在這邊森林法第17條之二是用新增的就是提到國有林籍公有林籍之遊棄活動影響森林生態及環境者主管機關得指定管制地點實施人員之乘載量管理車輛之使用"},{"start":10721.295,"end":10735.981,"text":"宿營地點之限定那另外就是配合這個第17條之2也有去修訂在第56條之3的一些規範那不曉得說農業部有沒有同意這樣的一個修法主張"},{"start":10737.021,"end":10747.104,"text":"基本上我們支持也認同委員的一個提案好 非常感謝好 那主席再給我一分鐘因為其實我們還是要回歸到山林共管這件事其實我很感動在2021年的時候蔡英文總統她有跟我們林務局跟在地的泰雅的Skaru流域的雪壩公園這個地方有去做一個共管合作備忘錄我很感動"},{"start":10762.409,"end":10777.842,"text":"但是我們地方政府也會辦像台東縣政府有找幾個他們的台東縣的部落也去簽了這個共管合作計畫但是我們原住民就是有點頭痛就是每次共管共管好像不了了之也不知道在共管什麼"},{"start":10778.462,"end":10792.671,"text":"就沒有很具體那我在這邊具體的提出一個部落就是台東達仁鄉的新化為什麼呢因為他們那個地方有油山是屬於你們林保署的地那邊的這個孤子崙山也是他們的聖山"},{"start":10794.192,"end":10815.663,"text":"雖然台東縣政府有跟他們做共管但是他也沒有感覺到實質的共管意義他們是很希望說既然是你們林保署的管理的土地是不是他們新化的這個遊山區能夠去做一些森林步道的改善去訂定一些很實際的共管機制不曉得部長或署長你們的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":10816.833,"end":10836.967,"text":"我想基本上我們農業部對於森林的一些政策一定是朝向如果說有雲部落的話一定是朝向山林共管的一個機制但是我也認同就是說我不能只有一個共管的口號必須要去落實包括一些怎麼樣的資源的共享包括你剛才說如果說有外面的人去遊客的時候"},{"start":10837.507,"end":10858.377,"text":"要設置什麼樣的一個步道跟安全設置那這個部分一定要跟原當地的部落一起來討論謝謝那我希望說如果大家有這樣的一個共識我們是不是找個時間邀部落然後一起的來討論好不好這邊您提到的一個月我想應該沒問題我們可以來討論好 謝謝謝謝部長 署長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝部長我們現在請賴世邦委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":10868.68,"end":10876.083,"text":"謝謝主席有請一起各位先進有請農業部的陳部長你請陳部長 謝謝我也好我就簡單謝謝 你好那麼我想要請問這個剛才你回答其他委員有提到廚餘養豬這個什麼時候可以全面"},{"start":10896.011,"end":10917.974,"text":"禁止廚藝養豬現在看到全國各縣市你可以看到豬瘟之後這個非洲豬瘟入侵之後你看到已經有早就宣布的後來陸續宣布的包括雲林縣 花東 金門 澎湖高雄市 台南市 嘉義縣苗栗縣 宜蘭縣等等的幾乎是不分"},{"start":10918.655,"end":10935.152,"text":"不分黨派啦藍綠幾乎都這個執政的縣市幾乎都宣布了就不要再除羽養豬免得又有這個疑慮這個到底什麼時候這個什麼時候你可以宣布全面禁止除羽"},{"start":10936.112,"end":10962.67,"text":"我跟我們報告第一個部分就是整個大方向來講我們會有個弱智 除以養豬的一個弱智讓這些除以養豬戶有一個過渡期那過渡期我們會讓它轉型成為用飼料的部分那您剛才說的有不同至少現在目前有應該是有將近五個縣市本身是禁止除以養豬不止五個喔 剛剛念的就不止五個啦原來的不算 原來已經禁止的不算啦十幾個了 加起來十幾個了對 加起來是十幾個對啊 就一半啦沒有"},{"start":10963.13,"end":10975.286,"text":"一個最重要的除以養豬大縣市的部分包括新北包括桃園包括新竹台中彰化這幾個都不吭聲所以我們的相關的政策你叫他吭聲啊"},{"start":10976.516,"end":10989.354,"text":"沒有 前六大還有屏東這六大的部分我們會跟縣市政府溝通我請問你成本考量是不是主要成本考量不是成本考量不然為什麼呢這個如果大家講不然就是飼料嘛飼料比較貴飼料跟廚藥差多少錢"},{"start":10993.26,"end":11014.084,"text":"你告訴我差多了因為沒有差幾%差幾%第一個除以養豬的黑豬的部分他要養差不多一年然後一般的白豬的話大概是180天大概六個月所以這兩個時間點不一樣他的換肉率也不一樣不是你跟我講我們這個都聽不懂成本差多少3層4層5層6層大概差10多塊10多塊是幾%幾%幾%每一公斤幾%"},{"start":11022.383,"end":11029.647,"text":"三層左右三層左右三層左右多少錢啊這個你們農業補貼一下不就好了嗎我們後面我們現在除以養豬的轉型我們有一個比較好的方案但是"},{"start":11037.051,"end":11061.119,"text":"委員非常重視的剛才一個很重要的問題就是廚餘如果沒有好好處理的時候它變成另外一個環境議題那縣市政府我們的對啦 因為現在六成的廚餘都是去餵豬的嘛六十二%所以我們會跟縣市政府溝通它當地的廚餘如果能夠有效的處理的時候你現在因為時間有限你就具體回答我你心目中"},{"start":11062.359,"end":11081.842,"text":"什麼時候可以確定我全國禁止廚藝養豬戶以農業部來講我們是越快越好越快越好 多快 三個月而已嗎沒有 我們越快越好但是一個很重要 我剛才說的就是我們要讓我們的廚藝養豬戶有一個轉型期讓他來接受輔導第二個部分就是轉型要多久嘛"},{"start":11082.482,"end":11103.194,"text":"轉型的部分要看 因為從申請 像現在裝天線的話就裝了三個月了 還沒有裝好所以這個部分 我想我們會盡快要夠鼓鼓鼓就對了沒有 我們會跟環境部來溝通我可不可以這樣講 給你寬鬆一點我們你預期一年內可以確實做到全國禁止出移 養出移會三年沒有 我想我們"},{"start":11105.1,"end":11129.872,"text":"我想我們的方案裡面有這樣的一個選項但是我們會跟地方政府會跟地方政府溝通可不可以這樣講最慢一年越快越好這樣可以嗎這個還要跟地方政府溝通我說弱勢當然以我們來講越快越好但是相對的地方政府如果在除以本身的處理沒辦法處理的話可能就會有所調整所以我一年是可以期待的對不對"},{"start":11130.751,"end":11143.695,"text":"一年可以期待的 在我們的方案之一可以期待的喔好 第二個題目就很簡短光電三法通過以後其實對這個熔電共生其實是有一定的衝擊這個當然是正面的我們認為9月8號審計部報告魚電共生七成有電沒有魚 魚死光光"},{"start":11156.858,"end":11186.498,"text":"目前還有3000多個熔電案主要是以無光需求或者部分光照需求的設施例如孤設集貨廠冷凍庫溫室為主那這個台灣是不是有可能做到像日本一樣就是說我一方面我農地也種電但是不會影響產量不會影響環境就是以農為本的農業共生方案有沒有"},{"start":11187.819,"end":11203.339,"text":"我跟委員報告你剛才講的孤設集貨場冷藏庫它都是完全是用黑暗之下或人工光源就可以生產的那這個部分在溫室的這些光電的部分大概本來就在開放了那你講的以農為本的這個部分這個是審計部報告 審計部報告"},{"start":11204.801,"end":11231.223,"text":"我知道所以我才會說我們現在是開放漁電共生但是農電共生本身我們要考慮的會更多的因素那我們個人期待就是說這個政策我講會隨著時間而去做一些檢視跟調整你主席站起來我不要耽誤太多時間人家審計部打你槍說你漁電共生七成有電沒有魚魚死光光這個你們要對外正式說明一下"},{"start":11234.025,"end":11252.29,"text":"怎麼會有這個情況 審計部打你槍欸審計部 審計部啊我想我們針對審計部的報告 我們也很深刻的檢討不是 你有沒有對外說明啊 審計部這個他講這樣子就打你槍啊 你都沒有回應啊我們有沒有回應 我們應該有回應吧有嗎 對外 你怎麼回應 你現在講"},{"start":11252.87,"end":11268.27,"text":"我想漁電共生本身我們經過查核的部分那這七成裡面可能有一部分是在試營運的階段它還沒有接電但是它試營運還沒有得到電業許可那這個部分我們已經在處理然後我們也將近270多場的這些這些"},{"start":11271.694,"end":11283.043,"text":"魚電工生的部分如果他沒有養魚的話我們就廢止第三個部分就是以前的改善期沒有期限一直改善你還要推魚電工生嗎人家打你一槍你還要推嗎魚電工生如果好好的經營是沒問題的那現在就是說魚電工生都是以光電業者為主體那未來我們會調整成以對啦這是我講的啦"},{"start":11297.135,"end":11312.786,"text":"應該要與農為本的農電共生或者與漁為本的漁電共生才對啦這個是我們的堅持 我們會從這個方面去改善好 這個你要加油啊 人家打你槍啊我知道 了解謝謝 謝謝事發委員 謝謝部長我們現在請參議委員質詢"},{"start":11327.923,"end":11334.43,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是請農業部部長跟林保署的林署長部長跟署長謝謝好部長"},{"start":11342.659,"end":11360.528,"text":"那因為今天在處理這個森林法那當然會進入一個很重要在嘉義山區的一個課題也就是從過去那陳明溫委員事實上他就不斷的在經濟委員會這裡都有去質詢就是說山區的國有林班地"},{"start":11362.449,"end":11384.537,"text":"這個很多是國有的一個土地但是林班地的編定把它編定為林業用地或是國土保安用地那導致於土地是受到限制的但是山區的居民他住在這邊他們沒有辦法因為過去長久住在這裡然後從日治時代日治時代的時候就在這裡開墾開墾的時候"},{"start":11386.858,"end":11407.936,"text":"台灣光復了他們不知道要去做登記所以沒有取得所有權沒有取得所有權當然延到現在他就是公有地嘛那公有地的那山區的就會有這樣的一個結構性問題就是說那到底他們要怎樣去可以合法的使用這個土地不然現在都是違法都要面臨被拆遷的一個狀況"},{"start":11408.837,"end":11434.17,"text":"那過去我們是用所謂一個空拍圖就是第一批的空拍圖58年5月27號但是58年5月27號基本上這個很多空拍資料是沒有辦法呈現完整的所以在當時都說那既然國有財產法42條第一條就已經有規定說對於公有財產的一個不動產的出租如果要用標租的一個方式"},{"start":11435.931,"end":11464.154,"text":"有出租類如果他在民國82年7月21號以前已經實際使用而且他願意繳清歷年的使用補償金的話那應該還是要淨於出租給他們那如果這樣的話既然國財產法以民國82年7月21號那這個時間也比較符合我們知道所謂區域計劃法對於地方的包括建築物它的一個使用規範明了之後才有的法令"},{"start":11464.634,"end":11483.689,"text":"那是不是我們可以把這個法律之間就不要說林地它就有一套自己的標準國有財產署所有的土地它又有自己的一個標準我們把它整併都用82年7月21號來做最終的認定可以嗎"},{"start":11485.199,"end":11507.96,"text":"一個問題說明就是說因為兩部法本身有一些競合的部分那林業部申請法的部分這邊我們在處理的時候因為我們有先有清理的動作所以造成一些困擾那我剛才也特別提到了就是說在認定只要有居住40的認定不管是原來的58527或者是你們現在希望用82721的這個日期"},{"start":11509.702,"end":11530.097,"text":"那現在我們的航空圖照是已經放寬到65到70年之間那我這邊也同意事實上部長我也要感謝因為你最近剛放寬了我們這個林班地的清理計畫把它放寬到116年那接下來但是要來解決後面的問題所以後面的部分也容委員給我們一點時間"},{"start":11531.698,"end":11548.351,"text":"我想我第一個就是我內部必須要去大家有一個共識因為在處理的東西我也不希望同仁違法所以這個部分在可能的情況之下當然如果能夠兩個法能夠一致那是最好的那我會去了解不能一致的這些原因可不可以移除"},{"start":11549.031,"end":11565.377,"text":"如果可以移除的話部長這真的有麻煩你啦我覺得這真的是會救了山區很多人因為很多是他阿祖阿公老了的家他面臨被排查而且我最近還遇到很多甚至他這間房子被拆掉之後他沒有地方住啊"},{"start":11565.777,"end":11585.029,"text":"所以他真的有面臨這個是屬於他們的居住權的一個問題所以我覺得部長你再整理這兩個法法就讓他一致嘛既然你們也可以從58年那後來已經把他放寬到65年那怎麼沒辦法就是用82年統一的一個方式來做最終的一個認定好不好"},{"start":11585.589,"end":11607.492,"text":"了解 我想我們會朝這個方向看看有沒有辦法把這些我們現在遇到的這些障礙能夠把它解決啦這個部分我們就來處理保證這真的要大家拜託這要鄭重拜託真正的解決這個土地正義的一個問題那第二個啦因為賴總統在上禮拜他宣布了台灣再重啟公定法行李部長這真的是一個德政"},{"start":11608.933,"end":11634.145,"text":"一樣是我剛剛延續的 那些都是日本時代留下來土地的東西政府可能太過精修 或是這個北省不去定期的土地或是說日本人留下來 然後中華民國接收過這些土地呢 基本上又透過工地放領讓實際的自耕農取得土地的所有權這是一個德政 部長你同意吧"},{"start":11636.222,"end":11660.412,"text":"你同意嗎 我要講 事實上我們這次的工地放寧有一點美中不足的地方 我講我們嘉義縣的刺濕農場我們嘉義縣有一個刺濕農場 在嘉義縣的第13大名鄉這四鄉的這四個鄉鎮的一個交界 面積兩千多公頃日據時代的時候 它是日本人的肥沙收育的"},{"start":11661.252,"end":11683.047,"text":"在民國22年 26年的時候 就昭和12年他遺傳給一個日本人 叫做赤獅出太郎在民國33年的時候 昭和19年由他的兒子赤獅大戒 雄雄 就是戒神的意思就是他繼承了這個土地那這樣的一個土地 在當時就租給了很多的"},{"start":11684.028,"end":11711.97,"text":"百姓在這裡租用 然後他們就從事農作他可能在這裡種椪柑 種鳳梨我們知道現在民雄這麼鳳梨最出名的大概就是在一個刺濕農場這一塊地方那這樣的一個刺濕農場 基本上它就是它比較廣廣 海平面不到100公尺海平面沒有到100公尺 但是它比較有坡度可能它的坡度 可能差不多5%"},{"start":11713.671,"end":11737.877,"text":"不然都15%以下啦就是說它屬於緩坡 二極坡以下像這樣的一個二極坡在這一次的公定範齡如果以我現在的理解大概沒有在這一次範齡的範圍你看它這個土地基本上是平的它就是比較高 它這裡的土地比較高的平地可是它基本上是平的 都是緩坡都是緩坡 都5% 差不多5%這樣"},{"start":11740.157,"end":11761.41,"text":"結果卻無法被放零 這2000多公頃真的是美中不足啦那部長這部分能不能再重新評估一下像這樣的一個赤獅農場這裡的土地雖然是被編列為山坡地那甚至說有很多在林班地的地方雖然是沙窟 但是它一樣是環坡啊"},{"start":11763.291,"end":11777.777,"text":"像這種這種緩坡就是十五像這個坡度大概在15%以下的就二級坡以下的基本上都不會變成說你們所擔心的水土保持的狀況那既然是緩坡的話是不是我們可以也一樣開放讓他工地放寧了"},{"start":11778.339,"end":11803.488,"text":"好 謝謝委員我其實在前兩天才找我們同仁討論那現在第一階段我們在處理這些工地放擬是根據內政部或是財政部的那個國有工地的放擬的辦法或是邊際的養殖用地的放擬的辦法去處理的那處理當然有個前提就是65年9月24號之前已經有一些放租的一個實況那更重要就是他也不能影響到那個"},{"start":11804.248,"end":11827.722,"text":"水源的涵養國土的保安或者是自然的保育的部分那我在這邊也跟委員報告第一階段是處理平地的部分第二階段就會處理波地的部分山坡地的部分因為山坡地本身根據山保條例裡面的山坡地也有一個放零辦法法已經在那邊了但是因為考量到山坡地有一些自災的風險那我已經請同仁去做仔細的"},{"start":11828.602,"end":11835.608,"text":"套土就是說把這些可能的移農移牧用地他沒有安全餘地沒有影響到自然"},{"start":11836.544,"end":11864.109,"text":"這個自然的保育的部分我們先把它盤出來然後再跟內政部來討論部長可能就麻煩就是盤一下這個部分我們會持續來處理就是說沒有影響到這一個有危險的一個問題的話那既然它就是我剛才說的反潑嘛對那也沒有影響到這個水源地的話我說這部分應該我們也一樣來幫因為平地的話比較容易處理散布地因為它的地形的關係可能更需要仔細的盤點才能夠去做處理好 部長我再問最後一個我們破住的八坪市場"},{"start":11865.189,"end":11887.161,"text":"因為我們人聽到已經過五年了當然因為都還沒開始去我們現在縣政府願意承擔責任來蓋來蓋的話但是拖越久那個新本路燈現在拼架起來可能要三十五天才有辦法來興建部長這部分是不是這個我想我們持續在行政院做溝通那原則上我們是希望他能夠蓋好"},{"start":11888.061,"end":11909.099,"text":"但是它的經費從20億變成35億因為物價的關係嘛它是20增加變28啦然後因為又時間又拖到了又變35啦所以我覺得我們不要再拖了這越拖越快去我想我們已經跟行政院說明了這個部分然後我們盡快的希望說能夠爭取到一些經費來支持就35億就不要再拖因為真的拖越久"},{"start":11909.939,"end":11923.824,"text":"預算越高 這個我也非常清楚然後我們 因為我們把人家拆了 已經很多人都我也 我知道 這個我知道他在台地 整個都不方便 就持續這麼久我們趕快解決這件事好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝蔡議員諮詢 謝謝我們謝謝部長 請馬文君委員諮詢議員幫我坐一下"},{"start":11948.09,"end":11949.213,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長"},{"start":11958.339,"end":11979.124,"text":"部長好 部長今天我們在森林法的部分我們有提案要增訂第8條之一條文的草案不過剛剛聽到部長有提到這個並沒有要納入去做修正我們在還沒有做充分溝通的時候其實我們已經先否決掉我覺得這個政府"},{"start":11980.382,"end":12000.35,"text":"是非常的不負責任而且可以用可惡來形容因為我們等一下剛剛蔡委員也有提到或之前也有委員提到我們想要藉這個機會我們想要請教一下林班地上面建物的審任時間採用58年5月27日這個日期有法令的規範嗎包主來回應有法令規範嗎當時是台灣省政府所核定的一個計畫"},{"start":12009.844,"end":12014.867,"text":"他是一個計畫所以這不是法規上面規定的一個日期對不對可是我們長期以來因為這個省政府時期第一次要辦理濫墾地清理計畫他發布的日期58年5月27號這個日期並不是法規命令的日期可是卻被政府"},{"start":12030.655,"end":12045.828,"text":"作為建物審認的重要日期而且這個做法沒有法源依據可是我們長期以來幾十年來卻以此對人民心送我們為什麼會提到因為怎麼告都輸啦所有的我們"},{"start":12047.21,"end":12063.364,"text":"甚至從清朝時期甚至從日據時代一直到國民政府來的時候其實有些人早就住在那裡居住甚至上百年他們居住的事實其實我們也都很清楚可是在我們每次"},{"start":12065.12,"end":12080.192,"text":"我們那時候用航照圖因為你是在森林裡面有些都被樹木遮蔽了以前你說要拿其他的佐證資料其實也不容易尤其是在山區然後人民的資訊又不發達的情況之下他們要取得這樣子的一個資訊並不容易所以我們今天才會特別提出來因為民主國家依法行政國參署很明確的"},{"start":12091.681,"end":12114.067,"text":"在國有的土地上國產國有土地上面的管理跟規範他明定了一個日期82721而且是入法這是非常明確的今天我們一個國家用不同的法令而且是用沒有入法的這樣的一個日期對人民的財產其實就直接把它拆除我們面臨過很多"},{"start":12115.327,"end":12118.55,"text":"不只是南投剛剛提到的嘉義還有台南還有高雄還有其他的縣市很多很多人因為這樣房子被拆很多人因為這樣生病很多人因為這樣甚至自殺我相信署長其實也很清楚因為過去我們也討論過非常多我們希望有一個有效的解決辦法"},{"start":12135.705,"end":12162.85,"text":"剛剛也聽到說這個對過去有些被拆掉的不公平我想要請大家看一下什麼叫公平跟不公平我們看到左邊的這個現在剛被挖掉的這個不知道什麼時候去拆除了一棟就是已經居住非常多他們甚至說已經居住上百年的這樣子的一個民宅就在林班地上我們為了要拆那個房子特別開了一條路把一個山林挖成這樣"},{"start":12164.79,"end":12182.125,"text":"我們再看看右邊的這個圖一個是阿里山賓館一個是太平山國家公園裡面的也是我們的一個度假區這個都是我們林務署管理的單位對不對阿里山賓館跟太平山都阿里山賓館什麼時候蓋的這什麼時候蓋的"},{"start":12190.826,"end":12204.433,"text":"蓋成現在這樣喔我說蓋成現在這樣喔日本時期不可能蓋這樣我說蓋成現在這樣還包括右邊這個太平山他的新館是後來蓋 舊館是原本對 他什麼時候蓋的量體原來就這麼大嗎他本來就是這樣嗎"},{"start":12206.449,"end":12213.899,"text":"應該是後來有在有在一規定在所以我們在說公平的時候今天我們政府把它委託給財團財團可以在那裡開發可以在那裡營業可以在那裡賺錢"},{"start":12221.448,"end":12240.457,"text":"他們是原來住在那裡的嗎都不是我們這舉這兩個例子而已他還有很多我們管理的我們的森林遊樂區全部都是非常的豪華都是非常先進的都是非常現代化的這樣子的一個度假勝地可是我們在開發的時候政府做沒有問題"},{"start":12241.497,"end":12262.253,"text":"人家住了數十年住了上百年全部都要被我們拆除而且這個拆除之前都要經過法律程序他們要跟政府告了很久沒有一個人可以安安穩穩的去過日子這就是我們今天為什麼要增訂這一條法令的一個"},{"start":12263.462,"end":12279.484,"text":"一個重要的一個基礎我想請教部長我們要把它定成一個有法源基礎然後跟一個國家我們所有的像我們在國土管理上面採取一致性的標準這有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":12281.147,"end":12295.394,"text":"我跟你們報告 國產署的法律跟我們農業部的法律它基本上有一些競合你沒有法律耶 剛剛說部長沒有聽清楚剛剛那個是沒有法律的計畫也是一種行政的一個作為"},{"start":12296.454,"end":12324.425,"text":"行政作為拿來管理我們所有的人民你今天如果你的行政作為可以讓財團在那裡開發這樣的土地我跟委員不要大聲我們可以好好的講我願意來檢討今天我跟你講今天如果民意沒有辦法表達的時候如果沒有大聲我相信政府聽不到因為我今天早上聽到你說這些都不納入去討論的時候我真的非常非常的憤慨尤其代表人民"},{"start":12325.465,"end":12332.733,"text":"委員會裡面是不是要進到討論是由立法院的委員會決定不是我來決定我們只是建議我們是建議不要排審今天你是農業單位的一個很重要的一個大家長"},{"start":12340.282,"end":12343.204,"text":"今天這個議題如果非常重要他如果對人民的財產還有人民的權利是有保障的是應該要被照顧的你們應該要積極爭取我們之前也跟林業保育署其實也提過很多次我們希望可以適時的修法你今天不是對他們特別優待他們早就在那裡你今天"},{"start":12364.699,"end":12391.012,"text":"我們賴總統都已經說要工地放零我們有很多的土地政策都已經在放寬你今天都可以同意讓財團在這裡蓋這麼大的量體都可以在那裡賺錢沒有理由讓我們原來的啃農或者我們原來的農民做這樣的犧牲尤其他們的房子一棟一棟被這樣的拆除這個部分部長是不是可以同意跟林業保育署可以可不可以朝這樣的方向去做努力我想我們"},{"start":12391.952,"end":12400.816,"text":"我如果可以政策決定不需要任何法律我馬上就同意了沒有 法律由立法院來通過一定有一定必須要去解決的我們現在今天特別提出來是不是你認為像這些啃農或像這些我們原居住的這些農民其實他們在財產的保護上面是不是我們可以給他一個法源依據這就是我們今天要修這個增添這一條法的一個重要的一個目的嘛"},{"start":12420.245,"end":12440.419,"text":"那農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力早期日據時代這個都不是問題因為杭照讀在71年的部分現在要處理是71到82年之間的部長你顯然對這個問題沒有很認真的去了解過今天如果是這樣我相信我不會比你了解還少部長請聽我講完我告訴你不要拍桌子"},{"start":12445.703,"end":12448.785,"text":"請你解決所有農民的問題今天我們要說的是如果我代表農民來對你做一個懇求今天如果你可以獨厚財團也希望你們可以照顧農民今天很多人因為這樣自殺很多人看著房子被拆掉以後無家可歸請你們用這樣的心情"},{"start":12474.119,"end":12488.571,"text":"看待這樣子的一個居住在那裡的農民可不可以我們現在要求的就是希望你可以去做檢討去幫助可以嗎可以去檢討我們可以來檢討所以我說過在前幾個委員說過我們一定很務實的來檢討我剛才說了如果沒有一些特殊的原因"},{"start":12499.52,"end":12525.005,"text":"好很抱歉如果部長願意檢討願意幫忙我們所有的這些原來的啃農跟住民我對剛才拍桌子對你抱歉我們希望我們農業部還有林業署真的可以去體諒這些原來住在那誰要住在這樣的山上啊就是他必須他們長久的都在那裡安身立命希望給他們一個機會希望有機會做這樣的修法"},{"start":12528.666,"end":12544.257,"text":"而且這個必須要有你們提出因為行政院可能不會去通盤的去了解到這麼多有你們去提出來才可以有效的去達成好不好謝謝馬文卿委員的質詢謝謝我們現在請高金素美委員質詢謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":12558.806,"end":12584.475,"text":"有請部長 林保署署長 原民會的代表原民會今天有來嗎好 麻煩一下 我們的賴總統他在最近高喊重啟工地放領他說要把將近2000公頃的土地還給真正的耕作者那這同時也有人"},{"start":12585.188,"end":12605.49,"text":"就是要提案打著地級不清的旗號要修法然後把目前國有零出租給從來沒有繳過租金的現況者來使用而當你們在做這些事情的時候請問一下原住民族土地的轉型正義你們有思考過嗎 請問部長"},{"start":12609.144,"end":12634.038,"text":"我們在考慮這些相關的傳統領域的部分我們特別是在森林跟原住民有關的我們一直朝向是山林共管的方式跟原住民和諧共管的方式來處理這是我們一致的態度好 謝謝我讓您看一下一張圖我們把這張圖攤開來看看一下國有領辦地和原住民族的傳統領域我相信園民會你應該知道"},{"start":12635.416,"end":12656.273,"text":"這兩者幾乎完全重疊的而這些所有重疊的土地 它從來也不是無主地這是我們的祖先 原住民族的祖先在我們的政府來到台灣之前就已經在這邊耕作 狩獵 生活的地方"},{"start":12657.389,"end":12678.604,"text":"而總統府的原轉會 他也承認了這樣子原住民族的傳統領域而退補會台堂 林業署 掌管了非常多的土地它本質上就是原住民族的傳統領域 這些官方資料"},{"start":12679.364,"end":12707.464,"text":"看一下這個都是官方資料不是高金素梅自己畫的他就是實打實打實證的鐵證我要在這邊說的是只要涉及到原住民族土地權益的修法我在這裡要要求必須依照原基法第21條要做到什麼呢釋權然後自由然後知情的諮商同意權"},{"start":12708.993,"end":12710.978,"text":"我想部長您同意嗎"},{"start":12712.113,"end":12740.294,"text":"我基本上同意委員的看法但是有一個實務上的問題如果所有的施工都要相關的原住民的部落的諮商參與如果原住民自己拉水管或做一些小型的建設的時候也要經過這樣的諮商會造成部落之間本身就會卡住所以我們覺得說用這種方式因為在原住民基本法已經有規範了那在生理法如果用這樣強度去規範的話反而會影響到部落未來的一個興建"},{"start":12742.356,"end":12763.852,"text":"部長 您的回答我可以理解 請一下署長署長 要尊重原基法 這是法律位階我們不要談這麼多枝枝節節的小細節而這些枝枝節節的小細節 原民會會跟部落來商量"},{"start":12764.864,"end":12780.605,"text":"那如果做那麼大的事情然後你說因為我做這麼大的事情會影響到原住民你們自己內部的一些問題的話這個我們定原住民族的基本法就沒有意義了"},{"start":12781.326,"end":12796.342,"text":"所以部長也好署長也好我要告訴你們的是訂定大的法律的規範或者是要大心吐木的同時或者是有一些人必須在原住民的地區從事一些"},{"start":12797.543,"end":12817.434,"text":"利益的時候你必須要遵守原基法21條我只是問您這個應該你們同意吧我覺得同意我再補充一下剛才委員說的如果說在這個同意的之下在原民會也好有一個相關的遊戲規則有一些排除的部分那絕對可行請問原民會的代表我們談的話你都同意吧"},{"start":12823.13,"end":12847.2,"text":"所以未來不管是哪一個部門 不管是我們的內政部也好 不管是我們的農業部也好 當他要訂這些東西的時候只要是在原住民族的傳統領域 就必須要依規範原基法21條你要堅守住好嗎謝謝 好 另外我看到了另一個問題也就是我們土地管理制度 硬生生就有兩套差別的待遇"},{"start":12848.411,"end":12863.379,"text":"這次的修法就是國有或公有林地只要在民國82年前已經使用然後他願意繳補償金就可以禁於出租但是看一下元寶地真化邊的使用"},{"start":12864.454,"end":12887.568,"text":"原保地真化編的使用所在77年2月1號前他有實際使用才能夠申請請問我們都是中華民國的國民為什麼國有零出租可以放寬年限到82年而真化編的申請認定我們只能卡在77年這不是赤裸裸的差別待遇嗎 部長"},{"start":12888.936,"end":12909.663,"text":"我想剛才講的那是委員的修正版本是82721的部分然後我們現在是根據58527的部分然後頂多把這個航照圖放官到65到71年的部分所以所以公有或國有利只要在民國82年前使用就可以他願意繳補償金就可以進行出租"},{"start":12910.206,"end":12936.942,"text":"這是委員提的版本但是我們是建議不排審好 謝謝我在這邊不管怎麼樣我要再次宣誓如果我們的政府兩套標準原住民族族人絕對起身抗議好 今天我要要求農業部跟園民會請你們兩週之內提出書面報告第一個國有林當中到底有多少面積是屬於原住民傳統領域"},{"start":12938.075,"end":12967.595,"text":"请把这个资料给我第二放宽禁于出租的年限会影响多少人多少笔土地其中多少是位于传统领域的第三个各修法的版本对原住民族跟传统领域权利的冲击跟配套你们必须要有一些评估跟一些书面报告第四评估之后这些对于原民权利的冲击影响你们有没有规划补偿赔偿原民的方案"},{"start":12968.415,"end":12988.497,"text":"這四個我希望你們在兩週之內提出書面報告也方便你們整理不然的話未來在這個地方還會有非常多的委員提案然後你們永遠也不可能說委員的提案你們不提審但是你們卻又拿不出一些說明的道理跟理由"},{"start":12988.817,"end":13004.15,"text":"好 謝謝喔我最後要講的是我們希望我們的政府不要嘴巴講要轉型正義實際上每一次要做任何一個政策的修改改變的時候都把我們的原住民的族人排除在外我認為如果今天賴總統說"},{"start":13006.292,"end":13022.594,"text":"他要所謂的工地放零我們如果要修這個法的話那麼真正就把一些土地還給我們原住民的族人我請助理再放一下最後圖片你們也好"},{"start":13025.433,"end":13039.5,"text":"國有地也好 它跟我們的傳統領域98%是重疊的 希望你們記得這個圖表 謝謝謝謝 謝謝高金素美委員的質詢 謝謝我們請羅廷惠委員質詢 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":13060.033,"end":13088.632,"text":"好 部長好部長現在呢政府宣布推動向山致敬開放山林政策但我現在也看到整個蓬勃發展的一個山林活動也帶來了很多的挑戰商業團快速擴張欠缺管理環境承載著負荷我想現在的山域事故也頻傳商業團體隨意進入整個原民傳統的領域缺乏了去尊重整個原住民的主體性幾個問題就教一下"},{"start":13089.412,"end":13099.067,"text":"首先像熱門的山區我舉例嘉明湖等地登山的人流大幅增加出現大量的排移衛生紙"},{"start":13099.927,"end":13121.522,"text":"除於就地的丟棄甚至吸引了野生動物改變覓食習性對於珍稀的物種水源造成了相關的影響請問一下農業部目前就嘉明湖或者是其他等熱門登山區域有沒有進行系統性的環境承載量的一個評估跟長期監測 有沒有"},{"start":13122.262,"end":13141.434,"text":"我想這就是我們修法的一個目的因為部分的森林開放有部分比較熱門的這些區域因為旅客的太多登山客太多造成這些生態的負荷所以我可以這樣講你看到長期的監測也感覺到狀況不妙對 所以才要這樣的一個修法相關的數據可不可以提供給本席"},{"start":13142.25,"end":13167.373,"text":"我想我們會後我再請同仁整理以後再提供給委員那當然後面也要探討到避難三屋通訊設備建置的一個維護所以我也希望在這邊要提醒開放山林更需建立到全民山林的環境素養農業部近期推動無痕山林登山教育安全教育以及戶外友善的環境教材宣導的這個辦理如何有沒有在追蹤"},{"start":13168.675,"end":13189.967,"text":"校園辦理 地方社區 商業推廣我怎麼沒看過里長在這邊有跟我們分享我想我們會跟教育部來合作啦因為有一些教育的部分我想開放三年以後登山登山課造成一些違法的情況其實跟態度是有關的這個態度可能從小就要教育你們要怎麼樣跟教育部合作多久可以提出具體的方案"},{"start":13191.498,"end":13218.391,"text":"給我們一個月好不好 給我們一個月一個月 那麻煩你承諾要給我相關的資料好嗎對也讓我們看一下好不好對 我會跟教育部來溝通看怎麼樣導入在他們的教材跟課程裡面好 一個月 好不好地方團體也要啊 地方社區啊這個部分我們都希望啊 加強啊我覺得整個登山的這些象山致敬本身你要去爬山的時候應該有一個基本的遊戲規則當然當然 那些都要商業團體那一定無話可說甚至他登山前的商業"},{"start":13218.971,"end":13237.879,"text":"活動應該都要教育啦是那個是基本要規範的就像上遊覽車要先播一個遊覽車的這個廣告嘛相關的一些安全宣導嘛我想基本的宣導我們應該更重視它另外我跟你請問喔南台灣現在濾烈溪越來越多齁那中台灣基本上我們是覺得已經算是一個防線了啦"},{"start":13238.419,"end":13254.267,"text":"台中也有零星的濾烈溪問題七席處 法子溪 漢溪 大理溪 大致排水請問一下 目前我們要防範濾烈溪北擴目前中部區域跟南部縣市有沒有防治這個相關的策略差異"},{"start":13255.407,"end":13283.599,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在應該在年初大概二三月的時候我就提到我們會成立一個濾劣系的一個應變小組然後啟動比較有系統的去獵殺到目前為止我們其實抓了23萬隻那台中的部分大概只有29隻還是零星的但是不能說因為零星我就不管他我們擔心他北擴嘛對 所以不能說他零星我們就不care他所以我們未來會持續的用經衛來協助地方政府一起來組成一個獵捕的這個團隊"},{"start":13284.699,"end":13312.299,"text":"我想加強中南部的獵捕那中部的防治這個部分很重要長期的監控相關如果有一些我們也希望這個監控的數據你們要有所掌握不要輕忽那另外我想請問之前就有七個月前有一個新聞動保法修正將提高宰殺傷害罰則政院版五月要提出報告送立院審議請問目前政院版到什麼地步了"},{"start":13313.724,"end":13329.68,"text":"動保法應該修過了嘛在政務會議那邊在審查對嘛 所以是農業部已經修過了嘛對 我們已經送到行政院了行政院要快一點來 你們要幫我催啊我們也一直在催啦我們也希望說在這個會期可以進來我想所有的委員都很"},{"start":13330.541,"end":13349.866,"text":"注重這個動保法我們都聚焦嚇阻虐待加重宰殺這相關的傷害行動那我個人也覺得不管是動保員加強他的權能那私有領域的一個搶救甚至是能夠將這個虐待動物的刑責加重我們都一直有所期待我不懂為什麼會拖這麼久"},{"start":13350.606,"end":13369.585,"text":"所以我也希望新聞都一直出來了講得很好聽那大家都有所期待結果到現在我們都還沒有辦法好好的來審這個部分農業部責無旁貸應該要來催促行政院這個部分也要想憲署你們很重視啊這個可以做得到嗎我想我們在上上禮拜已經跟院長也親自報告過在正義會議也報告過了"},{"start":13370.726,"end":13384.975,"text":"所以我相信後續的這些審議的過程應該會比較快速謝謝希望謝謝我們羅廷惟委員質詢謝謝我們現在部長現在署長我們請謝龍介謝龍介謝龍介委員不在我們請葉元之委員質詢部長謝謝麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":13403.049,"end":13423.17,"text":"部長跟你請教一下因為之前那個毒彈事件已經兩個禮拜了那其實那個毒彈全台有好幾個縣市像新北市也有一萬顆但大家現在都不知道說到底那個毒彈的原因到底是什麼現在有最後的調查的結果嗎是分埔泥彈我說的是分埔泥彈"},{"start":13423.837,"end":13439.804,"text":"我想基本上就是在後市場計查是環境部的部分然後前端的部分因為他那個芬姆尼是一個環境用藥那可能在環境用藥的過程中我們也查到他可能有一些違法的用藥的部分那這個部分地方政府也已經裁罰了"},{"start":13440.732,"end":13461.614,"text":"所以現在確定是那個個案那個養雞場他在環境上面違法用我們也同時擴大了周遭的這些還有其他各縣市的這些養雞場去查到目前為止並沒有查到有違法的部分在農業部的角度針對這一個個案的養雞場做了什麼輔導措施"},{"start":13461.934,"end":13477.099,"text":"我想第一個部分就是會用這樣的藥的話表示他的琴廠的管理是比較不好的才會用這個殺蟲的環境用藥所以我們會輔導這些琴社本身看有沒有辦法再升級的部分已經在做了吧"},{"start":13477.979,"end":13499.659,"text":"我們過去幾年一直在做但是相對的前設一旦改建的時候改建的時候會造成零幣效益大家會擔心他會擴建所以他在重新申請執照的時候有比較困難但是我想我們一直跟地方政府在溝通看看可不可以化解這樣子的一個中招最簡單講就是站在農業部立場是因為這個個案"},{"start":13500.98,"end":13516.988,"text":"他自己用環境用藥然後加上他的那個情色狀況比較不好所以就污染到了所以你們調查的結果是這樣希望部長可以針對類似的環境多輔導一下因為這個現在大家很重視食安的發現一件大家都會恐慌"},{"start":13517.816,"end":13542.81,"text":"所以不要說好像事件過了大家忘記了就沒這回事了不會 我們會記取這個教訓像114年我們就輔導了50場的禽社的改建是啦 但是就是沒有嘛就是沒有達到完百分之百效果嘛所以兩個禮拜前才會發生這個事件嘛第二個可能也要注意一下那個飼料的污染的問題因為我有聽一些這個養雞業界人說法啦他們是說像"},{"start":13543.49,"end":13562.099,"text":"像比如說這個蛋雞跟肉雞他們可以吃的飼料用藥的容許量不一樣嘛就有發生可能這個送飼料的過程當中原本是送給肉雞吃的飼料後來污染到送給蛋雞吃的飼料然後結果蛋雞吃了以後他一些用藥標準就超過了"},{"start":13563.039,"end":13581.271,"text":"這部分部長我跟委員報告那個飼料是不能添加分譜尼的部分而且飼料如果說我現在講不是分譜尼啦我現在講的是那個一般的用藥啦一般飼料容許的啦一般來講因為對蛋積蛋積跟肉積的它的飼料的有一些含有一些成分"},{"start":13582.311,"end":13607.314,"text":"它的標準是不一樣的嘛那如果你在寄送 你在運送過程當中馬上是運給肉雞 然後後來又運給蛋雞如果這個飼料汙染的話就會造成我剛講的狀況我知道 我謝謝委員的提醒喔我們會來了解就是說肉雞跟蛋雞本身的飼料因為據我們所知它基本上違法的這些藥品它不會放到飼料裡面去不過有可能會被違規的使用這個部分我想我們會加強來集合"},{"start":13607.534,"end":13624.811,"text":"好 再來問一下因為行政院私下都跟中小企業有一些中小企業傳出來的說好像關稅在這個禮拜就會定案之前我們都非常的關心有關於美國所提出來的非關稅貿易障礙特別是農產品可能會進來台灣"},{"start":13625.592,"end":13641.421,"text":"然後甚至於沒豬沒牛要比過去更開放那農業部有得到消息了嗎因為如果這樣的話農業部要因應啦可能因應之前要規劃不可能說發生了之後才開始因應嘛那所以農業部現在已經有得到消息了"},{"start":13641.884,"end":13668.743,"text":"我想基本上我們農業部並不了解什麼時候會開放就是會簽署這樣的一個台美關稅的一個協定但是相對的在談判過程中我們一直在爭取的就是確保我們的糧食安全還有我們產業永續的部分那不想放我覺得就是說開放那它開放到什麼程度然後影響的產業你們這一定都要評估我想我們都有做內部的一些評估所以如果說"},{"start":13669.543,"end":13693.599,"text":"譬如說談判代表那邊是等到可以公佈在同步告訴農業部那你的反應就慢點啊我們在談判過程中我們都有參與你有參與所以你已經知道大概開放的程度了已經知道了大方向啦大方向是了解但是因為要繞到文本繞到文本的時候還沒有辦法所以大方向現在是要開放什麼"},{"start":13694.543,"end":13719.884,"text":"我想因為現在目前本身我們本沒有簽之前還在談判過程中所以你已經知道了所以會開放相關的農產品進來只是你現在還沒有簽不能說但是你已經知道是什麼所以你已經有因應之道我這樣講應該沒有超過你剛剛講的範圍我跟委員報告美國農農產品一直有進來一直有進來那只是在關稅的問題關稅的減讓那當然了所以這個部分委員我們的質詢時間到了"},{"start":13722.866,"end":13731.41,"text":"不同的品項太多了有不同的情境我們都會充分的準備好謝謝謝謝葉元志委員的質詢謝謝我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請部長我們請部長"},{"start":13752.363,"end":13768.77,"text":"部長好謝謝主席今天安排了森林法我們要來做探討那本席也所提案森林法第二條及第15條本席的提案請教部長您的看法支持吧"},{"start":13776.54,"end":13798.37,"text":"尊重委員的提案尊重就是支持嘛就是因為後續會大家一起討論嘛那你支持本期的提案嗎我基本上是支持這樣的一個提案好 非常感謝我們的方向是一致的因為我們致力推動原住民原住民族轉型正義但是在我們森林法第15條沒有與時俱進"},{"start":13800.891,"end":13823.153,"text":"仍将原民采取的森林产物限制于定义不明的传统领域那只限于他的生活惯习那严重的背离的原住民主基本法的第19条的明文规定是说原住民主地区以及传统文化"},{"start":13824.174,"end":13839.132,"text":"記疑或者是自用權利範圍此種法律間的文字矛盾不僅形成了基本法給予的一個權利森林法設門檻的一個怪現象那更使得原住民族在實踐傳統文化"},{"start":13840.673,"end":13868.306,"text":"他面臨到處罰的一個風險導致權益保障可能會淪為是口號所以本席剛剛也歡喜聽到部長您的方向概念是跟本席一樣所以我們針對於在整個森林法以及原基法裡頭在採集區或者是在用途定義上面他目前如果沒有修他是有落差的那"},{"start":13870.088,"end":13878.907,"text":"這個農業部呢你們在於傳統領域來修正為原住民主地區這個方向是正確的嗎"},{"start":13880.826,"end":13906.296,"text":"這個方式是對的所以謝謝你支持本席的一個提案因為我們知道傳統領域它實際上它是只有包括可以證明的採集還有它的居住以及它祭祀的一個痕跡所以這個範圍是很小的不足以來代表不是整個部落歷史活動的一個範圍我們正面的傳統文化傳統文化的部分還有自用的部分"},{"start":13906.636,"end":13927.278,"text":"都要納進來嘛所以謝謝支持本席的一個提問那到時候我們在審查這個法案的時候我們就共同方向謝謝那本席要請教因為這個霧台鄉發生了原住民在三年內獵殺了四隻台灣黑熊的這個事件那昨天的媒體報導的很大"},{"start":13929.66,"end":13947.648,"text":"因為原住民有原住民他們的一個權利但是大家也認為說一個保育的動物發生這樣的事情大家也覺得非常的不捨在這樣子本席不希望"},{"start":13949.546,"end":13961.357,"text":"達到族群的一個對立跟社會的輿論的一個划欄所以本期要請教 你站在農業部的立場你認為我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":13963.598,"end":13979.995,"text":"能夠融合不再族群的一個對立的聲音我跟你們報告雖然說我們的A88裡面因為原住民自用是沒有被裁罰但是我們後續也不希望說因為這樣子我們的黑熊被爛"},{"start":13980.876,"end":13996.274,"text":"是所以我們跟原住民希望說在山林共管的這個大精神之下能夠有一些自主通報的獎勵或者是一些黑熊的生態的起伏的方式對希望他們能夠更守護這些黑熊所以這個變成就是陳同部長你所說的我們必須要去宣導是"},{"start":13999.818,"end":14028.357,"text":"必須要能夠融入森林共榮共和共一的這個概念我們一定要去不要在這個整個族群的一個對立這是不是台灣的普世價值對所以這一方面要去加強要去加強好嗎好那接下來本席要請教既然我們是這個保護野生動物但是在推廣的安全的這個規格改良式的列具"},{"start":14029.037,"end":14052.888,"text":"現在如果說我們的民眾需要他可以到我們的這個林業署的工作站去申請嘛對不對那這樣子是不是會變成太被動化會不會變成太被動化我們有沒有一個另外的一個多元管道比如說我們的農會跟農民是最接觸的是最接觸的那是不是如果農會願意"},{"start":14054.469,"end":14071.175,"text":"也可以農民有更多的一個管道他不用跑到林業的這個工作署工作站去他就就近在他的農會因為農會是最照顧農民的嘛到那邊也可以申請是不是這樣更便利"},{"start":14071.946,"end":14088.321,"text":"我跟委員報告其實農會已經有納進去如果農會也可以甚至於我都希望因為原民部落那邊大部分都是跟公所在接洽所以在公所那邊事實上應該也有一個申請的窗口這樣的話越多元的話我覺得這個推廣會越有效果"},{"start":14089.442,"end":14107.093,"text":"對 這個就是本席所說的所以你們必須要去告訴民眾你可以到哪裡去申請因為大家現在的觀念就只有在我們的工作站那大家覺得不方便那甚至公所甚至農會如果願意那可以有多元的"},{"start":14108.394,"end":14130.613,"text":"這個管道去做申請才能夠真正的來保護我們的野生動物因為每一次我們看到我們的野生動物這個腳斷啦或者是頭被掐住啦哇 這些我們長期在關注我們的野生保護動物呢我們認為這些捕捉的列據更應該要精進讓我們的這個"},{"start":14134.276,"end":14140.428,"text":"野生動物牠不再受害這是我們的終極目標嘛 對不對了解 這是我們一起一致的一個目標"},{"start":14141.738,"end":14165.847,"text":"那所以您現在說的 既然是一次的目標 剛剛我們討論出的一個共識點第一個你要去宣導你要去宣導你可以到哪些地方去申請不管是公所或者是有的農會他願意要這麼做的或者是到你的這個工作站那都可以去申請你們是不是應該要去宣導因為民眾都不知道啊"},{"start":14166.448,"end":14170.942,"text":"我跟委員謝謝委員的提醒那我會要求我們的聯邦組這邊"},{"start":14172.648,"end":14199.324,"text":"甚至於不只是林保署因為農會的輔導卻有在我們的輔導師然後我們的科技各改良場所也有跟原民的這些夥伴有一些互動我覺得用多元的這些管道去宣導會比較快不能只靠林保署的部分你可以活潑一點比如說我們的套索你的八字轉環那你的線徑要大於4公里你就像那個消防的宣導一樣預防重疑治療的宣導"},{"start":14200.245,"end":14228.993,"text":"你運用一點多元化的一個有亮點可以吸引的焦點你把這一些比如說你的陷阱你的套索套索長什麼樣子或許很多人還不清楚你可以運用這樣子的方式去讓大家更加的認識同時也讓大家知道要怎麼樣的能夠讓我們的保護野生動物可以去落實大家有觀念才能夠真正的去做事情對不對"},{"start":14229.814,"end":14233.773,"text":"會 我想謝委員提醒我們一定會朝這個方向來做而且會盡快的來做好 謝謝"},{"start":14236.103,"end":14261.285,"text":"謝謝楊秋瑩委員的質詢謝謝部長 謝謝署長鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們今天登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員邱益瑩 高金素梅 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及為其答覆部分請相關單位"},{"start":14262.426,"end":14279.472,"text":"於一周內已書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日討論事項所列議程森林法部分條文修正草案詢答完畢另定期繼續進行審查散會謝謝"},{"start":14294.707,"end":14295.869,"text":"誒,弄來處理嗎?"}]}},{"id":"165985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585987cb22c031d1ddf3bd93e540dfe0040e3e649524f2f4882b0fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:24:06 - 12:32:29","影片長度":"00:08:23","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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杨球瑜发言 邀请部长我们请部长部长好谢谢主席今天安排了森林法我们要来做探讨那本席也所提案森林法第二条及第十五条本席的提案请教部长您的看法 支持吧"},{"start":42.561,"end":64.553,"text":"尊重委員的提案尊重就是支持嘛就是因為後續會大家一起討論嘛那你支持本席的提案嗎我基本上是支持這樣的一個提案好 非常感謝我們的方向是一致的因為我們致力推動原住民原住民族轉型正義但是在我們森林法第15條沒有與時俱進"},{"start":66.914,"end":89.177,"text":"仍將原民採取的森林產物限制於定義不明的傳統領域那只限於他的生活慣習那嚴重的背離的原住民主基本法的第19條的明文規定是說原住民主地區以及傳統文化"},{"start":90.198,"end":105.172,"text":"記疑或者是自用權利範圍此種法律間的文字矛盾不僅形成了基本法給予的一個權利森林法設門檻的一個怪現象那更使得原住民族在實踐傳統文化"},{"start":106.693,"end":133.646,"text":"他面臨到處罰的一個風險導致權益保障可能會淪為是口號所以本席剛剛也歡喜聽到部長您的方向概念是跟本席一樣所以我們針對於在整個森林法以及原基法裡頭在採集區或者是在用途定義上面他目前如果沒有修他是有落差的"},{"start":136.108,"end":145.125,"text":"這個農業部呢 你們在於傳統領域來修正為援助民主地區這個方向是正確的嗎"},{"start":146.847,"end":172.339,"text":"這個方式是對的所以謝謝你支持本席的一個提案因為我們知道傳統領域它實際上它是只有包括可以證明的採集還有它的居住以及它祭祀的一個痕跡所以這個範圍是很小的不足以來代表不是整個部落歷史活動的一個範圍所以我們也希望傳統文化的部分還有自用的部分"},{"start":172.659,"end":193.525,"text":"都要納進來嗎 所以謝謝支持本席的一個提問好 那到時候我們在審查這個法案的時候我們就共同方向 謝謝那本席要請教因為這個霧台鄉發生了原住民在三年內獵殺了四隻台灣黑熊的這個事件那昨天的媒體報導的很大"},{"start":195.706,"end":213.675,"text":"因為原住民有原住民他們的一個權利但是大家也認為說一個保育的動物那發生這樣的事情大家也覺得非常的不捨那在這樣子本席不希望"},{"start":215.57,"end":227.378,"text":"達到族群的一個對立跟社會的輿論的一個划欄所以本期要請教 你站在農業部的立場你認為我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":229.622,"end":246.49,"text":"能夠融合不再族群的一個對立的聲音我跟委員報告雖然說我們的A88裡面因為原住民自用是沒有被裁罰但是我們後續也不希望說因為這樣子我們的黑熊被濫捕"},{"start":246.91,"end":265.342,"text":"是所以我們跟原住民希望說在山林共管的這個大精神之下能夠有一些自主通報的獎勵或者是一些黑熊的生態的起伏的方式對希望他們能夠更守護這些黑熊所以這個變成就是陳副部長你所說的我們必須要去宣導是"},{"start":265.842,"end":294.381,"text":"必須要能夠融入森林共榮共和共一的這個概念我們一定要去不要在整個族群的一個對立這不是台灣的普世價值所以這一方面要去加強接下來本席要請教既然我們是保護野生動物但是在推廣的安全的規格改良式的列具"},{"start":295.061,"end":319.13,"text":"現在如果說我們的民眾需要他可以到我們的這個林業署的工作站去申請嘛對不對那這樣子是不是會變成太被動化會不會變成太被動化我們有沒有一個另外的一個多元管道比如說我們的農會跟農民是最接觸的是最接觸的那是不是如果農會願意"},{"start":320.51,"end":337.219,"text":"也可以農民有更多的一個管道他不用跑到林業的這個工作署工作站去他就就近在他的農會因為農會是最照顧農民的嘛到那邊也可以申請是不是這樣更便利"},{"start":338.13,"end":354.362,"text":"我跟委員報告其實農會已經有納進去如果農會也可以甚至於我都希望因為原民部落那邊大部分都是跟公所在接洽所以在公所那邊事實上應該也有一個申請的窗口這樣的話越多元的話我覺得這個推廣會越有效果"},{"start":355.463,"end":373.134,"text":"對對對這個就是本席所說的所以你們必須要去告訴民眾你可以到哪裡去申請因為大家現在的觀念就只有在我們的工作站那大家覺得不方便那甚至公所甚至這個農會如果願意那可以有多元的"},{"start":374.414,"end":396.639,"text":"這個管道去做申請才能夠真正的來保護我們的野生動物因為每一次我們看到我們的野生動物這個腳斷啦或者是頭被掐住啦哇 這些我們長期在關注我們的野生保護動物呢我們認為這些捕捉的列據更應該要精進讓我們的這個"},{"start":400.301,"end":406.457,"text":"野生動物牠不再受害這是我們的終極目標嘛對不對 這是我們一起一致的一個目標"},{"start":407.782,"end":431.868,"text":"那所以您現在說的 既然是一次的目標 剛剛我們討論出的一個共識點第一個你要去宣導你要去宣導 你可以到哪些地方去申請不管是公所或者是有的農會他願意要這麼做的或者是到你的這個工作站那都可以去申請你們是不是應該要去宣導因為民眾都不知道啊"},{"start":432.108,"end":436.963,"text":"我跟委員 謝謝委員的提醒那我會要求我們的聯邦組這邊"},{"start":438.692,"end":462.227,"text":"甚至於不只是林保署因為農會的輔導卻有在我們的輔導師然後我們的科技各改良場所也有跟原民的這些夥伴有一些互動我覺得用多元的這些管道去宣導會比較快不能只靠林保署的部分你可以活潑一點比如說我們的套索你的八字轉環那你的線徑要大於4公里你就像那個消防的宣導一樣預防重疑治療的宣導"},{"start":466.269,"end":495.017,"text":"你運用一點多元化的一個有亮點可以吸引的焦點你把這一些比如說你的陷阱你的套索套索長什麼樣子或許很多人還不清楚你可以運用這樣子的方式去讓大家更加的認識同時也讓大家知道要怎麼樣的能夠讓我們的保護野生動物可以去落實大家有觀念才能夠真正的去做事情對不對"},{"start":495.838,"end":499.713,"text":"會 我想謝委員提醒我們一定會朝這個方向來做而且會盡快的來做好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"165984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859776190513697e9dbbd93e540dfe0040e3e649524f2f4882b3e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:18:19 - 12:24:02","影片長度":"00:05:43","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝 麻煩請部長請部長部長 跟你請教一下因為之前那個毒彈事件已經兩個禮拜了那其實那個毒彈全台有好幾個縣市像新北市也有一萬顆但大家現在都不知道說到底那個毒彈的原因到底是什麼現在有最後的調查的結果嗎"},{"start":34.642,"end":53.834,"text":"是芬普尼蛋我說的是芬普尼蛋我想基本上就是在後市場稀查是環境部的部分然後前段的部分因為他那個芬普尼是一個環境用藥那可能在環境用藥的過程中我們也查到他可能有一些違法的用藥的部分那這個部分地方政府也已經裁罰了"},{"start":54.739,"end":75.622,"text":"所以現在確定是那個個案 那個養雞場對 現在看起來 它在環境上面違法用 違法我們也同時擴大了周遭的這些還有其他各縣市的這些養雞場去查了到目前為止並沒有查到有違法的部分那在農業部的角度針對這一個個案的養雞場做了什麼輔導措施"},{"start":75.942,"end":91.047,"text":"我想第一個部分就是會用這樣的藥的話表示他的琴廠的管理是比較不好的才會用這個殺蟲的環境用藥所以我們會輔導這些琴社本身看有沒有辦法再升級的部分已經在做了嗎"},{"start":91.747,"end":111.413,"text":"已經我們過去幾年一直在做但是相對的前設一旦改建的時候改建的時候會造成零幣效益會大家會擔心他會擴建所以他的重新申請執照的時候有比較困難但是我想我們一直跟地方政府在溝通看看可不可以化解這樣子的一個最簡單講就是在農業部理事長是因為這個個案"},{"start":115,"end":131.011,"text":"他自己用環境用藥然後加上他的那個情色狀況比較不好所以就污染到了所以你們調查的結果是這樣希望部長可以針對類似的環境多輔導一下因為這個現在大家很重視食安的發現一件大家都會恐慌"},{"start":131.832,"end":156.833,"text":"所以不要說好像事件過了 大家忘記了 就沒這回事了不會 我們會記取這個教訓 像114年我們就輔導了50場的琴射的改建是啦 但是就是沒有嘛 就是沒有達到完百分之百效果嘛 所以兩個禮拜前才發現這個事件嘛第二個可能也要注意一下那個飼料的污染的問題因為我有聽一些這個養雞業界人說法啦 他們是說像"},{"start":157.503,"end":176.126,"text":"像比如說這個蛋雞跟肉雞他們可以吃的飼料用藥的容許量不一樣嘛就有發生可能這個送飼料的過程當中原本是送給肉雞吃的飼料後來污染到送給蛋雞吃的飼料然後結果蛋雞吃了以後他一些用藥標準就超過了"},{"start":177.047,"end":198.389,"text":"這部分 部長我跟委員報告齁 那個飼料是不能添加分補泥的部分 而且飼料如果說我現在講不是分補泥啦 我現在講的是那個一般的用藥啦一般飼料容許的啦 一般來講 因為對蛋積蛋積跟肉積的 它的飼料的有一些含有一些成分它的標準是不一樣的嘛 那如果"},{"start":198.849,"end":221.321,"text":"你在寄送 你在運送過程當中 馬上是運給肉雞然後後來又運給蛋雞 如果這個飼料汙染的話就會造成我剛講的狀況我知道 我謝謝委員的提醒我們會來了解就是說肉雞跟蛋雞本身的飼料因為據我們所知 它基本上違法的這些藥品它不會放到飼料裡面去不過有可能會被違規的使用這個部分我想我們會加強來集合"},{"start":221.561,"end":247.553,"text":"好 再來問一下因為行政院私下都跟中小企業有一些中小企業傳出來的說好像關稅在這個禮拜就會定案之前我們都非常的關心有關於美國所提出來的非關稅貿易障礙特別是農產品盒會進來台灣然後甚至於美豬美牛要比過去更開放農業部有得到消息了嗎因為如果這樣的話農業部要因應"},{"start":248.593,"end":255.426,"text":"可能因應之前要規劃不可能說發生了之後才開始因應所以農業部現在已經有得到消息了"},{"start":255.894,"end":282.75,"text":"我想基本上我們農業部並不了解什麼時候會開放就是會簽署這樣的一個台美關稅的一個協定但是相對的在談判過程中我們一直在爭取的就是確保我們的糧食安全還有我們產業永續的部分我覺得就是說開放那它開放到什麼程度影響的產業你們這一定都要評估我想我們都有做內部的一些評估所以如果說"},{"start":283.57,"end":307.627,"text":"譬如說談判代表那邊是等到可以公佈在同步告訴農業部那你的反應就慢點啊我們在談判過程中我們都有參與你有參與所以你已經知道大概開放的程度了你已經知道了大方向大方向是了解但是因為要繞到文本繞到文本的時候還沒有辦法所以大方向現在是要開放什麼"},{"start":308.553,"end":333.774,"text":"我想因為現在目前本身我們本沒有簽之前還在談判過程中所以你已經知道了所以會開放相關的農產品進來只是你現在還沒有簽不能說嘛但是你已經知道是什麼所以你已經有因應之道這樣講應該沒有超過你剛剛講的範圍我跟委員報告美國的農產品一直有進來一直有進來那只是在關稅的問題關稅的減讓的問題那當然啦那當然啦所以這個部分委員我們的質詢時間到了"},{"start":336.876,"end":344.225,"text":"不同的品項太多了有不同的情境我們都會充分的準備好謝謝好謝謝謝謝葉元智委員"}]}},{"id":"165983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859530151c60b78707bbd93e540dfe0040e3e649524f2f4882b8403647dd55c224a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:12:35 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部長好部長現在呢政府宣布推動向山致敬開放山林政策但我現在也看到整個蓬勃發展的一個山林活動也帶來了很多的挑戰商業團快速擴張欠缺管理環境承載著負荷我想現在的山域事故也頻傳商業團體隨意進入整個原民傳統的領域缺乏了去尊重整個原住民的主體性幾個問題就教一下"},{"start":47.45,"end":57.087,"text":"首先像熱門的山區我舉例嘉明湖等地登山的人流大幅增加出現大量的排移衛生紙"},{"start":57.964,"end":79.583,"text":"除於就地的丟棄甚至吸引了野生動物改變覓食習性對於珍稀的物種水源造成了相關的影響請問一下農業部目前就嘉明湖或者是其他等熱門登山區域有沒有進行系統性的環境承載量的一個評估跟長期監測 有沒有"},{"start":80.303,"end":99.474,"text":"我想這就是我們修法的一個目的啦因為部分的森林開放有部分比較熱門的這些區域因為旅客的太多登山客太多造成這些生態的負荷所以我可以這樣講你看到長期的監測也感覺到狀況不妙對所以才要要這樣的一個修法相關的數據可不可以提供給本席"},{"start":100.287,"end":125.394,"text":"我想我們會後我再請同仁整理以後再提供給委員那當然後面也要探討到避難三屋通訊設備建置的一個維護所以我也希望在這邊要提醒開放山林更需建立到全民山林的環境素養農業部近期推動無痕山林登山教育安全教育以及戶外友善的環境教材宣導的這個辦理如何有沒有在追蹤"},{"start":126.71,"end":148.004,"text":"校園辦理 地方社區 商業推廣我怎麼沒看過里長在這邊有跟我們分享我想我們會跟教育部來合作啦因為有一些教育的部分我想開放三年以後登山登山課造成一些違法的情況喔其實跟態度是有關的這個態度可能從小就要教育你們要怎麼樣跟教育部合作多久可以提出具體的方案"},{"start":149.535,"end":176.449,"text":"給我們一個月好不好 給我們一個月一個月 那麻煩你承諾要給我相關的資料好嗎對也讓我們看一下好不好我會跟教育部來溝通看怎麼樣導入在他們的教材跟課程裡面好 一個月 好不好地方團體也要啊 地方社區啊這部分我們都希望啊 加強啊我覺得整個登山的這些象山致敬本身你要去爬山的時候應該有一個基本的遊戲規則當然當然 那些都要商業團體那一定無話可說甚至他登山前的商業"},{"start":177.029,"end":195.914,"text":"活動應該都要教育啦是那個是基本要規範的就像上遊覽車要先播一個遊覽車的這個廣告嘛相關的一些安全宣導嘛我想基本的宣導我們應該更重視它另外我跟你請問喔南台灣現在濾烈溪越來越多齁那中台灣基本上我們是覺得已經算是一個防線了啦"},{"start":196.454,"end":212.319,"text":"台中也有零星的濾烈溪問題喔七夕處法子溪漢溪大理溪大致排水請問一下目前我們要防範濾烈溪北擴目前中部區域跟南部縣市有沒有防治這個相關的策略差異"},{"start":213.459,"end":241.631,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在應該在年初大概二三月的時候我就提到我們會成立一個濾劣系的一個應變小組然後啟動比較有系統的去獵殺到目前為止我們其實抓了23萬隻那台中的部分大概只有29隻還是零星的但是不能說因為零星我就不管他我們擔心他北擴嘛對 所以不能說他零星我們就不care他所以我們未來會持續的用經衛來協助地方政府一起來組成一個一個獵捕的這個團隊"},{"start":242.751,"end":270.354,"text":"我想加強中南部的獵捕那中部的防治這個部分很重要啦長期的監控相關如果有一些我們也希望這個監控的數據你們要有所掌握啦不要輕忽那另外我想請問之前就有七個月前有一個新聞東寶法修正將提高宰殺傷害罰則政院版五月要提出報告送立院審議請問目前政院版到什麼地步了"},{"start":271.782,"end":287.715,"text":"動保法應該修過了嘛 就是在政務會議那邊在審查對嘛 所以是農業部已經修過了嘛對 我們已經送到行政院了行政院要快一點來 你們要幫我催啊我們也一直在催啦我們也希望說在這個會期可以進來我想所有的委員都很"},{"start":288.576,"end":307.87,"text":"注重這個動保法我們都聚焦嚇阻虐待加重宰殺這相關的傷害行動那我個人也覺得不管是動保員加強他的權能那私有領域的一個搶救甚至是能夠將這個虐待動物的刑責加重我們都一直有所期待我不懂為什麼會拖這麼久"},{"start":308.65,"end":331.638,"text":"所以我也希望新聞都一直出來了講得很好聽那大家都有所期待結果到現在我們都還沒有辦法好好的來審這個部分農業部責無旁貸應該要來催促行政院這個部分也要想憲署你們很重視啊這個可以做得到嗎我想我們在上上禮拜已經跟院長也親自報告過在正義會議也報告過了所以我相信後續的這些審議的過程應該會比較快速謝謝希望謝謝我們羅廷惟委員資訊"}]}},{"id":"165982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158599f2b7d2df70613c1bd93e540dfe0040e3e649524f2f4882b5f9ce4f0ed6650c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:04:21 - 12:12:30","影片長度":"00:08:09","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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有請部長 林保署署長 原民會的代表原民會今天有來嗎好 麻煩一下 我們的賴總統他在最近高喊重啟工地放領他說要把將近2000公頃的土地還給真正的耕作者那這同時也有人"},{"start":37.219,"end":57.515,"text":"就是要提案打著地級不清的旗號要修法然後把目前國有零出租給從來沒有繳過租金的現況者來使用而當你們在做這些事情的時候請問一下原住民族土地的轉型正義你們有思考過嗎請問部長"},{"start":61.192,"end":86.077,"text":"我們在考慮這些相關的傳統領域的部分我們特別是在森林跟原住民有關的我們一直朝向山林共管的方式跟原住民和諧共管的方式來處理這是我們一致的態度好 謝謝我讓您看一下一張圖我們把這張圖攤開來看看一下國有領辦地和原住民族的傳統領域我相信園民會你應該知道"},{"start":86.826,"end":108.303,"text":"这两者几乎完全重叠的而这些所有的重叠的土地它从来也不是无主地这是我们的祖先原住民族的祖先在我们的政府来到台湾之前就已经在这边耕作狩猎生活的地方"},{"start":109.417,"end":130.625,"text":"而總統府的原轉會他也承認了這樣子原住民族的傳統領域而退補會台唐林業署掌管了非常多的土地他本質上就是原住民族的傳統領域這些官方資料"},{"start":131.405,"end":159.496,"text":"看一下這個都是官方資料不是高金素梅自己畫的他就是實打實打實證的鐵證我要在這邊說的是只要涉及到原住民族土地權益的修法我在這裡要要求必須依照原基法第21條要做到什麼呢事前然後自由然後知情的諮商同意權"},{"start":161.021,"end":163.008,"text":"我想部長您同意嗎"},{"start":164.144,"end":192.319,"text":"我基本上同意委員的看法但是有一個實務上的問題如果所有的施工都要相關的原住民的部落的諮商參與如果原住民自己拉水管或做一些小型的建設的時候也要經過這樣的諮商會造成部落之間本身就會卡住啦所以我們覺得說用這種方式因為在原住民基本法已經有規範了那在生理法如果用這樣強度去規範的話反而會影響到部落未來的一個興建"},{"start":194.386,"end":215.873,"text":"部長 您的回答我可以理解 請一下署長署長 要尊重原基法 這是法律位階我們不要談這麼多枝枝節節的小細節而這些枝枝節節的小細節 園民會會跟部落來商量"},{"start":216.912,"end":232.617,"text":"那如果做那麼大的事情然後你說因為我做這麼大的事情會影響到原住民你們自己內部的一些問題的話這個我們定原住民族的基本法就沒有意義了"},{"start":233.357,"end":248.396,"text":"所以部長也好署長也好我要告訴你們的是訂定大的法律的規範或者是要大新土木的同時或者是有一些人必須在原住民的地區從事一些"},{"start":249.577,"end":272.944,"text":"利益的時候你必須要遵守原基法21條我只是問您這個應該你們同意吧我覺得同意我再補充一下剛才委員說的如果說在這個同意的之下在原民會也好有一個相關的遊戲規則有一些排除的部分那絕對可行請問原民會的代表我們談的話你都同意吧"},{"start":275.162,"end":299.239,"text":"所以未來不管是哪一個部門不管是我們的內政部也好不管是我們的農業部也好當他要訂這些東西的時候只要是在原住民族的傳統領域就必須要依規範雲基法21條你要堅守住好嗎謝謝另外我看到了另一個問題也就是我們土地管理制度硬生生就有兩套差別的待遇"},{"start":300.442,"end":315.41,"text":"這次的修法就是國有或公有林地只要在民國82年前已經使用然後他願意繳補償金就可以禁於出租但是看一下元寶地真化邊的使用"},{"start":316.485,"end":339.599,"text":"原保地真化編的使用所在77年2月1號前他有實際使用才能夠申請請問我們都是中華民國的國民為什麼國有零出租可以放寬年限到82年而真化編的申請認定我們只能卡在77年這不是赤裸裸的差別待遇嗎 部長"},{"start":340.967,"end":361.711,"text":"我想剛才講的那是委員的修正版本是82721的部分然後我們現在是根據58527的部分然後頂多把這個航照圖放寬到65到71年的部分所以公有或國有地只要在民國82年前使用就可以他願意繳補償金就可以進行出租"},{"start":362.113,"end":389.593,"text":"这是委员提的版本您同意吗我们是建议不排审好 谢谢我在这边不管怎么样我要再次宣誓如果我们的政府两套标准原住民族族人绝对起身抗议好 今天我要要求农业部跟人民会请你们两周之内提出书面报告第一个国有林当中到底有多少面积是属于原住民传统领域"},{"start":390.243,"end":415.15,"text":"請把這個資料給我第二放寬禁於出租的年限會影響多少人多少筆土地其中多少是位於傳統領域的第三個各修法的版本對原住民族跟傳統領域權利的衝擊跟配套你們必須要有一些評估跟一些書面報告第四評估之後這些對於原民權利的衝擊影響你們有沒有規劃補償賠償原民的方案"},{"start":420.451,"end":440.525,"text":"這四個我希望你們在兩週之內提出書面報告也方便你們整理不然的話未來在這個地方還會有非常多的委員提案然後你們永遠也不可能說委員的提案你們不提審但是你們卻又拿不出一些說明的道理跟理由"},{"start":441.125,"end":456.181,"text":"好 謝謝喔我最後要講的是我們希望我們的政府不要嘴巴講轉型正義實際上每一次要做任何一個政策的修改改變的時候都把我們的原住民的族人排除在外我認為如果今天賴總統說"},{"start":458.323,"end":474.625,"text":"他要所謂的公地放領我們如果要修這個法的話那麼真正就把一些土地還給我們原住民的族人我請助理再放一下最後圖片你們也好"},{"start":477.482,"end":481.489,"text":"國有地也好 它跟我們的傳統領域98%是重疊的希望你們記得這個圖表 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17077","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d66a25cdaa7df4ae841e98b117513a6ae85db5c09cad80ab7f83cf3206a6cca1e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一） 委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三） 委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五） 委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八） 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十） 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一） 委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三） 委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四） 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五） 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六） 委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七） 委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八） 委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九） 委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十） 委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一） 委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二） 委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三） 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一） 委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二） 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（三） 委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（四） 委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（五） 委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（六） 委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（七） 委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（八） 委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（九） 委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十） 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十一） 委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二） 委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)\n【11月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-27T08:30:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T11:59:00+08:00","duration":12488,"影片長度":"03:28:08","委員發言時間":"08:30:52 - 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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1586.345,"end":1587.073,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1842.048,"end":1848.999,"text":"可是部長還在講先讓他們處理一下好了"},{"start":1870.443,"end":1875.226,"text":"各位委員我們現在準備開會立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會會議"},{"start":1887.369,"end":1907.397,"text":"這一次是兩天一次會的一個議程那報告委員會現在繼續開會今天的議程是一繼續審查學校公參法草案相關草案共23案包括范雲委員等16人"},{"start":1909.915,"end":1937.363,"text":"拟据的草案委员马文君等17人委员鲁明哲等24人委员王玉明等17人委员洪梦凯等20人委员黄建豪等20人委员杨琼英等21人委员林倩琦等21人委员钟嘉斌等17人委员郭玉琴等16人委员张亚琳等17人"},{"start":1938.163,"end":1943.6,"text":"委員柯志恩等21人委員陳培宇等26人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1945.836,"end":1965.354,"text":"委員王宏威等20人委員葉元芝等20人委員陳秀寶等20人委員林怡瑾等33人委員劉建國等17人委員徐巧欣等19人委員邱振軍等25人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員萬美玲等19人"},{"start":1973.066,"end":2001.278,"text":"第二項審查學校公三法草案相關草案等12案這是後來新增的12案包括委員葛如君等17人委員吳佩義等20人委員陳亭飛等16人委員王美惠等19人委員陳金輝等22人委員徐宇貞等23人委員張家俊等19人委員李燕秀等16人"},{"start":2002.498,"end":2028.337,"text":"委員鄭天才等17人委員伍麗華等18人委員林月琴等29人委員游皓等17人那就要進行的是逐條審查那首先呢來介紹在場的委員包括林怡瑾委員"},{"start":2031.798,"end":2060.05,"text":"我就照順序好不好 照包林怡琴委員包包我們的另外一位可以招委陳秀寶委員郭育琴委員柯士恩委員萬美玲委員林佩祥委員吳佩義委員林倩琪委員林月琴委員"},{"start":2063.423,"end":2080.411,"text":"繼續介紹與會的官員出席的有教育部部長鄭英耀政務次長張亮萬堅政務次長政務次長張亮萬堅國民級學選署署長彭復原組長邱"},{"start":2092.702,"end":2120.344,"text":"修纏科長朱景教育部的法制處處長鄭乃文會計處的副處長吳清談人事處的副處長任明坤法務部的參事汪南君法務部矯正署的副組長吳榮瑞"},{"start":2123.271,"end":2149.461,"text":"好以上的官員出席本案已於114年3月20日詢答完畢新增格如均等12個提案版本不再進行尋拔並入本次共同審查請問有無提案委員要進行提案說明我知道是林倩琪委員特別來到委員會請林倩琪委員做提案說明"},{"start":2151.135,"end":2154.514,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2159.645,"end":2186.642,"text":"好 謝謝張偉還有各位輔會同仁大家好那本席在一個地域會期提到提出了這個學校午餐及營養促進條例的草案那主要目的是要健全整個學校營養午餐的制度來確保兒少的營養跟食安並推動飲食教育來奠定國民健康的一個基礎那麼現行的學校衛生法雖然有學校膳食的規定但是不足以因應當前多元的公餐"},{"start":2187.442,"end":2206.681,"text":"與層出不窮的食安問題那尤其是在縣市層級運作的當中呢那責任的這個多個責任分散還有涉及的部會局處也眾多那麼營養的人力不足食材的來源不透明成了一個制度性的缺口那本席所提的這個條例"},{"start":2207.702,"end":2230.573,"text":"即是以法律位階來整合現行的規範讓中央地方學校三個層級都有明確的責任與配套那這個草案共分7章27節那重點包括了第一個部分是建立中央與地方雙軌推動的體系由教育部來設置學校午餐及飲食教育促進委員會那麼地方來設置推動會"},{"start":2231.653,"end":2251.788,"text":"定期來召開會議確保政策滾動的檢討透明 公開第二個部分是強化專業人力的配置調整的門檻以更多學校設置更多營養師與校廚為主並確立了培訓制度跟健康檢查的機制以確保膳食品質與衛生安全"},{"start":2252.509,"end":2280.885,"text":"第三個部分是推動在地食材與食農教育鼓勵學校來採用國產的食材發展地方飲食特色同時將飲食教育納入課程培養學生的營養素養與習識觀念第四個部分是建立校園食材採購與登錄平台由農業部與教育部共同管理簡化採購流程落實資訊揭露防止食安漏洞"},{"start":2281.505,"end":2308.561,"text":"那麼本條例的制定將學校午餐政策有一套完整的母法依據那麼從公餐品質到食安監督和營養教育都有法制的保障那這個是兒少健康權與食安國策的一個基礎建設那麼懇請各位委員支持本案讓營養安全教育並行的午餐制度成為守護下一代健康的重要基石以上 謝謝"},{"start":2313.049,"end":2338.858,"text":"好我們謝謝林倩琪委員做提案說明好我想現在就請另外一位召委來代理我主持一下會議我要進行我們民眾黨的一個提案說明請游舒冰委員做提案說明"},{"start":2345.084,"end":2370.285,"text":"主席各位出席的委員跟官員大家好本院的台灣民眾黨黨團鑒於台灣對於學校飲食相關規定鬆散或由各部會及地方縣市政府自行訂定多頭馬車權責不輕且現行規範多為原則性的文字不易確實執行無法保障學生權益"},{"start":2371.666,"end":2397.763,"text":"為校園飲食安全把關建立營養食農教育及完善的校園公餐體系實踐聯合國永續發展目標與人道經濟之進步價值以促進學生健康飲食及健全學生生息發展原理據高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐公餐法草案"},{"start":2398.624,"end":2418.971,"text":"敬請今天討論公決 謝謝是否還有在場委員要做提案說明"},{"start":2421.291,"end":2442.037,"text":"好如果沒有的話呢我們就繼續後面的議事喔委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10時30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理現在審查學校公參法草案相關草案進行逐條審查並進行"},{"start":2447.321,"end":2473.666,"text":"我先把 等一下會有這部分先把議事程序那你再有意見就馬上可以提出好我再繼續現在審查學校公參法草案相關草案進行逐條審查並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增動議修正動議請議事人員宣讀那我們在進行逐條審查之前委員們有沒有相關的意見要提出大體討論有附議吧"},{"start":2476.208,"end":2500.658,"text":"好那我們就進行大體的討論就要上台發言要舉手齁那我們就下來我們就已經坐到下面來了嗎好大體討論就請好要依照順序好嗎先舉手我們這樣一位還有嗎兩位123456位好就這樣6位好"},{"start":2503.235,"end":2522.604,"text":"對要照順序來這邊寫一下因為依照司法法治委員我覺得他們這樣寫的蠻好的是有一些順序在這裡我登記好剛才的順序你坐下登記剛才是萬美林委員第一個"},{"start":2524.848,"end":2534.375,"text":"沒有沒有 你這邊可以寫嗎?等一下喔 等一下1是外面 2是?衣錦然後呢?繡寶3應該是繡寶比較前面 對4是克斯恩還是?克斯恩 好"},{"start":2554.116,"end":2580.999,"text":"5 飛翼6 育晴7 吳立華等一下吳立華嗎范芸仙范芸仙7 8好OK那就這樣子好我們時間就大家掌握在大概在兩三分鐘之內好吧"},{"start":2585.487,"end":2595.383,"text":"好 大體討論 我們就把 想要講多少就講但是就是把握一下時間 OK 可以 謝謝現在我們請萬美玲委員進行大體討論的第一位發言 謝謝"},{"start":2603.957,"end":2622.558,"text":"謝謝趙偉還有部長還有與會所有的同仁今天先謝謝趙偉排審學校營養午餐專法這部專法其實是對於我們整個學校對我們的孩子的營養午餐家長老師都高度關注的一部法事實上因為我第十屆才進來"},{"start":2623.579,"end":2651.193,"text":"從第十屆到十一屆現在我們都非常關注但後來我從柯子珍口中知道其實第九屆就已經開始了甚至於會不會更早我不知道但是總之這是一步大家認為應該要趕快來把這個學校午餐專法這個部分趕快來處理起來所以謝謝我們召委今天排不過對於到現在為止我們行政院的版本還沒有送進立法院我想我們本席是予以嚴厲的譴責"},{"start":2652.634,"end":2671.964,"text":"因為這不是去年前年大家才開始關注了這麼長的時間教育部從108年就承諾要提出營養午餐專法那這此後每一年大家都有提但這個承諾看起來是年年跳票而且這個年年跳票不只是教育部年年跳票我看歷經這麼多個部長大家好像也沒人很認真的趕快把這個專法提出來"},{"start":2677.307,"end":2698.826,"text":"那么本身认为行政院版如果没有提出来会导致今天我们如果进行逐条审查就是只能以教育部的建议条为作为基准那我们如果以教育部的建议条我们事实上就是教育部昨天也来沟通就是说是草案但我必须要讲这个草案还真草率到昨天其实都还没有完成"},{"start":2699.266,"end":2717.94,"text":"然後今天就要把這個草案拿出來我們要用這個草案來當這個基準來審查那這樣的一個審查其實有很大的部分其實我想這個就是張耀堅次長也在他也非常清楚這是會涉及地方縣市政府的這個權責還有我們財政相關的條文那這些都沒有辦法進行實質的討論例如"},{"start":2720.322,"end":2737.932,"text":"本席提案的第7條第11條教育部建議條文在第13條14條涉及各學校營養師聘任的人數以及教師兼任執密這個相關的獎勵啦儲工或儲物人員的聘用等等這些人事上的經費到底應該誰來負責中央負責還是地方負責又應該要怎麼去分工"},{"start":2742.034,"end":2759.987,"text":"那如果完全今天要縣市來負責各縣市的這個財政能力都相當嗎顯然是不一所以應該怎麼去分配我們沒有一個很明確在裡面那當然剛才還提到那本席提案的第7條第11條那其實也是這個教育部現在看到13條14條"},{"start":2761.468,"end":2778.035,"text":"那我也在想今天三十幾個本本這麼多條文到底要怎麼去整合那再來本席認為進入逐條審查之前必須要請教育部先說明從108年開始到現在到底我們有沒有開始跟縣市政府針對午餐專法開過會"},{"start":2779.676,"end":2794.384,"text":"如果有開過 開過有多少次那所涉及剛剛提到的相關選擇條文還有經費負擔執行的狀況等等各縣市的想法是什麼那有共同數的也就變罷但是今天有這個想法不一的時候"},{"start":2794.764,"end":2813.839,"text":"那一些点我们现在应该要怎么去调整除非其实教育部假设今天承诺说我们审查完毕以后所有产生可能的经费通通都是中央负担那当然就不会有中央跟地方的问题也不会有地方有一些限制个别治安难行的状况那此外还有一个非常重要的点"},{"start":2814.6,"end":2829.338,"text":"今天教育部提出的建議法案名稱是高級中等以下學校午餐級飲食教育條例那我想要請教教育部等一下也要在審查之前也必須說清楚教育部的立場是要把高中也納入午餐專法規範嗎"},{"start":2831.38,"end":2849.83,"text":"那根据教育部的建议条文第七条第二项又特别提到高级中等学校供应学生午餐德经学校午餐供应会或相关会议决议改由其他方式办理其实这就等于是在说高中的营养午餐要怎么做"},{"start":2850.35,"end":2879.05,"text":"各校都可以自行来决定那我想前阵子也有一些高中对于营养午餐这个做法看法不一引起很大的争执我想我们也必须要纳入今天的考虑那如果是这样的话为什么我们的法条名称还要用高级中等以下学校那就是部长如果我们的法案的名称就是扩及到高中我们也要用一样的专法去做一个规范的话恐怕全国的高中生部长"},{"start":2879.75,"end":2908.075,"text":"不是只有在928教室要去抗議啊學生可能都要去抗議了這裡要考量進去這是本席替教育部去想到這個地方那所以再來最重要一點了今天我們如果要依照教育部建議的文字來進入主條討論所謂的草案那當然如果說最後一定要這樣那我們待會大家再來討論可是呢教育部是不是能夠明確的承諾今天教育部提出的建議條文就是未來行政院"},{"start":2908.635,"end":2927.251,"text":"不会有任何的意见也跟行政院的院版会是一致的那要不然今天我们在这里花很多的时间下去讨论那最后呢布板送到院版去院版去有意见或者是我们今天讨论的这个共识以后结果行政院的版本出来是不一的那请教一下这个行政院的意见呢"},{"start":2927.591,"end":2946.333,"text":"出来或者是说将来的修正动议那是不是就扰乱了今天我们审查的结果所以如果是这样对于我们今天本会所有的委员跟参与审查的法案的委员我想这是极度的不尊重也会带来后续很多的困扰所以呢审查之前教育部必须回复第一个营养五层专法裁员经费"},{"start":2946.894,"end":2973.709,"text":"那是否由中央全部買單那如果是要地方政府來負擔或分擔那到底溝通了沒有那怎麼負擔怎麼分擔我覺得必須說清楚第二個就是非常重要的高中以下的學校營養午餐尤其高中這塊是不是納入涵蓋在我們這次營養午餐專法內那最後一定要請這個部裡面要說清楚講明白今天布版的草案因為行政院的院版還沒有出來到時候就會一致嗎"},{"start":2974.329,"end":2989.39,"text":"不要我們大家在這審完以後呢 院版出來如果有很大的不同 那麼這個時候我們今天審查其實流於心事沒有必要 以上謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員發言 現在請林怡瑾委員發言"},{"start":2999.265,"end":3023.422,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我想今天來審這個營養午餐法那本席首先還是要強調就是說培養國民從小有這個良好的飲食習慣珍惜食物的概念認識台灣在地的飲食文化這絕對是國家有必要要積極投資的重要的教育的方針尤其是要讓學生吃得飽要吃得好要吃得健康"},{"start":3024.502,"end":3053.642,"text":"這對成長期的孩子也是非常重要再加上前陣子經歷非洲豬瘟的危機積極教育孩子減少剩食剩下的食物更為重要回到最根本的裁員問題在野黨把裁劃法修得亂七八糟原本教育部有補助地方辦理營養午餐的業務裁劃法一修中央很多錢劃分到地方去這一次營養午餐專法很多版本"},{"start":3053.942,"end":3073.331,"text":"都要求更多的細節要中央去補助那這制定下去恐怕會讓中央加碼這個本來約74億的甚至還要更多那況且上次修正財化法後來又算出說某些在黨執政的縣市錢會拿的比之前更少"},{"start":3074.051,"end":3101.742,"text":"那所以現在還要再修啦那我想又有南部的縣市的裁員又大幅的減少那行政院提出的版本又讓各縣市的這個款項又要相對提高那前兩天又被藍白封殺總的來說啦這個裁劃法的修正案都還沒有一個正確的方向明確的方向那中央跟地方未來的分工也這個不明白狀況不明的情況之下"},{"start":3102.722,"end":3131.436,"text":"我覺得現在要來審查這個跟中央補助經費高度相關的法案實在是很難有很細緻很完整的討論所以我想我們教文文會真的是八個文會最認真的委會我敢這樣講那我們的審查法案都非常的細心不粗糙所以我們請各位教文的同事我們要審慎來思考營養午餐法是不分朝野都很希望去推動的"},{"start":3132.256,"end":3160.001,"text":"那跟學生又是息息相關的法案那草野的委員也都有提案那我覺得也不需要在這裡爭工搶勞所以本席還是希望這個專法能夠專注在討論原則性的規範那如果條文中有涉及名列各項補助或者是中央地方財務跟事權這個劃分的那我覺得就要留待才化法有個定案之後我們再來處理這件事情以上"},{"start":3167.751,"end":3168.775,"text":"好請陳秀寶委員發言"},{"start":3174.037,"end":3200.284,"text":"謝謝主席今天關於這個營養午餐法首先我們要表達我們都非常的關心學生在校用餐的這個品質營養以及食材的來源本期從上一屆就提出本期的版本學校飲食法所以也請不要曲解民進黨委員對提升學校飲食品質的這個決心但是本次的午餐專法呢最重要涉及的經費以及地方自治的事項目前又因為才化法的問題"},{"start":3201.184,"end":3220.043,"text":"中央及地方的裁員分配目前未定導致每年應該要協助補助的這個經費及事權還沒有很明確那五川專法又跟經費的補助事項是息息相關的評估這出來新增的這個相關的經費都應該要讓教育部跟地方政府能夠重新討論"},{"start":3221.904,"end":3242.842,"text":"能够很慎重的去讨论这个相关事权的分配避免修法的设计与财政分配制度脱节另外依据地方自治弹性的架构来看我们对于专法中名列的各项补助或地方财政的分担这个也缺乏共识如果我们强硬的将各项补助"},{"start":3244.543,"end":3273.132,"text":"經費以人員的這個分配明定入法將會使地方政府在地方自治中失去分配及調整的這個彈性這也不尊重不同縣市的實際的需求目前在公餐的食物中我們透過午餐契約的方式要求廠商必須提供國產在地具三張EQ的產品那也明定了相關的法則並對混充假冒產品供貨不實的部分有加重法則而且還設置了豬肉"},{"start":3273.592,"end":3300.184,"text":"以表板確保校園肉品的安全學校飲食的訂定需要針對不同的地區及學校教育的狀況來訂定及考量本次的午餐專訪有很多地方是需要中央教育部跟地方討論的事項目前並沒有很完整充分的討論所以希望可以讓教育部跟地方政府有完全溝通完善溝通的時間跟機會取得了共識之後我們再來討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":3305.11,"end":3332.201,"text":"請柯智恩委員發言好 謝謝昭偉我想我們今天還是要肯定昭偉把這個案子排進來但是我想我今天站在這個地方因為我是從第九屆就開始當立委所以很多的歷史 很多的責任我想我還是要這邊做一個澄清來釐清這個責任從第九屆就開始討論第十屆的進度是零"},{"start":3333.081,"end":3350.552,"text":"然後第11屆就是各位就是我們這一屆前教育部剩次林明玉表示專法最快就會在新會期就會送進立法院還說名稱就是高級中等以下學校午餐級飲食教育條例重點包括非常的多然後呢"},{"start":3351.252,"end":3368.173,"text":"期间呢立法院也开了公听会进行了询答给教育部这么容偿的时间若不是赵伟今天排案我不知道拖到什么时候所以说呢院版难产的原因为什么没有院版只有建议版本我们要审吗当然我必须要说这不能怪"},{"start":3368.914,"end":3395.043,"text":"部长这个东西呢已经有些东西送到院对不对部长没错吧送到院呢但是院一直没有核定下来以至于这个部分但是至于有些委员呢不但说这是因为才化法的关系啊不好意思我还是要厘清一下113年5月本席召开学校午餐法治化公听会的时候那时候的教育部的林明玉次长有出席那时候有才化法吗没有"},{"start":3395.763,"end":3416.082,"text":"還有呢113年又過了8個月也就在今年3月張廖次長被詢學校營養午餐專法我還是沒有看到教育部的版本行政院的版本為什麼行政院不將院版送過來所以說呢那個時候也沒有所謂的才化法但是還是導不出來而且呢教育部第9屆的時候在108年歷史夠久了4月3號公告草案"},{"start":3421.187,"end":3435.091,"text":"而且呢同年8月將草案送到政院退回來之後的修訂為就是學校午餐及飲食教育條例那今天又改成中等高中高級中學以下變過來變過去然後第十屆四年當中沒有裁劃法但是營養午餐的專法也還是沒有送過來所以這絕對不是裁劃法的問題113年3月又送進了行政院來做審議也一年多了"},{"start":3447.674,"end":3476.512,"text":"行政院督导的政委对不起换了又换已经从零万一换到使者又换到罢谁去了有才化法吗仍然没有所以呢我非常支持营养午餐赶快的立法但是呢每一次都要说才化法说实在的如果部长才化法最新的版本只要对我们各县市有利绝对全员支持我都愿意背书但是就诚如刚刚所提到的没有数字如果有数字的话请方便来做讨论"},{"start":3477.032,"end":3497.411,"text":"数字非常的重要因为各县市所分配的比例不一样我们怎么知道我们所讨论的中央要多少钱地方多少钱今天讨论了老半天到时候地方不认账怎么办所以地方的给财化法新版财化法的数字一定要出来我们才有办法那现在行政院已经提出了新版了"},{"start":3497.731,"end":3520.2,"text":"表示已经有数字在手上了释放出来给我们看否则我们今天讨论白饭对不对把数字释放出来给我们看我们才有办法知道怎么权责怎么样做一个分配而且说实在的要让午餐品质好一定要有专业人员来提供专业的管理这点我们完全相信我们都知道天下没有白吃的午餐但是政府愿意投入多少的资源"},{"start":3521,"end":3539.793,"text":"我知道我还是不断提及你们都已经淡忘的林明运次长他特别提到了每年补助学校大概273位营养师1131名雏公我都还记得很清楚225条生熟食运输路线还有提高偏乡午餐达到62元的强化措施"},{"start":3540.373,"end":3567.011,"text":"所以说呢才化法的数字一出来到底一年补助我们地方有关的午餐到底有多少然后呢将来实施之后中央跟地方的权责分配会怎么样我们地方还没有办法拿到钱一句话数字拿出来还有呢包括本这个委员的一个版本当中呢营养师厨工等等我们党下组条都会看出来但是呢我还是强调很多时候你把法规定的非常的严谨"},{"start":3567.831,"end":3592.666,"text":"但是呢总而有一些的弹性像一些偏远地区啊有很多的学生他们自己本身就已经有非常重视食农教育供应给孩子的都是他们旁边无毒的这个农田所种的那这样符合中央所设定的一个法规吗像美农的农度国小还有一些虽然不是太偏远但是他们有他们弹性的说法万一你这个专法定完之后有没有给予这些"},{"start":3593.166,"end":3614.195,"text":"有更多特色的地方有没有办法让这些偏远愿意自设厨房的学校来做这个公餐的计划还是这样的法规一进来之后反而打乱所以我还是最后强调对于有能力自办重视食农教育的办得很好的学校政府给的奖励不足然后呢绝不能反而让这些表现的好学校处于不利的状况"},{"start":3614.815,"end":3636.809,"text":"总而言之今天我还是认为周围能够把它排进来我们开工但是呢可以慢慢审因为太多的状况我们可以再慢慢等到这个院板进来之后再来但是呢如果说文字没有超越太多我们可以用这个审查的方法但是呢还是责请第九届到第十一届的我不想到的"},{"start":3637.549,"end":3657.36,"text":"很多人到第12屆第3屆的還要討論這個營養午餐法那這樣真的是我們太對不起針對於這件事情大家真的希望能夠把這個午餐法治化的這一群關心的一個朋友了以上現在請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":3667.591,"end":3685.498,"text":"好謝謝主席我認為營養午餐訂定專法有其必要那麼我看了過去的記錄雖然上街我不在立法院但是營養午餐專法最早提出來的時候當時的蔡培會委員他說他常舉一個例子就是三色豆的例子他說三色豆就是很便利也容易保存"},{"start":3686.078,"end":3704.855,"text":"也有營養價值問題是不只是孩子連大人也不想每天都吃三色豆所以呢過去我們教育部在推動營養午餐的改革其實有一定的進展例如說三張EQ我們的國產食材就是讓我們的孩子我們學生能夠吃到台灣自己的農產品"},{"start":3705.936,"end":3718.451,"text":"那這一部分的推廣其實也有一定的成效很多地方政府也都很肯定所以今天這個專法的立法其實就是要進一步的來討論我們營養午餐的改革下一步下一個階段應該要來怎麼做那我自己"},{"start":3720.834,"end":3746.663,"text":"也有提案版本我大概看了一下今天的版本非常多大概有30到40個版本我的建議是說因為我看教育部的建議文字其實很多也相當的具體例如就在我自己版本第13條我是支持像營養師學校學生的人數如果在550人以上而且是自辦營養午餐的話那麼就要設置一名營養師這個部分在教育部的建議文字裡面這也是有具體"},{"start":3747.103,"end":3769.214,"text":"提出的所以我的建議是說如果今天真的要來進行討論的話是不是就以教育部的建議文字來當一個底板那我們可以開始來進行討論那麼剛剛也有委員又提到說這個母法定下去了還是要給他彈性我也相當的支持所以我比較認為說我們這一個營養午餐專法的的定定"},{"start":3769.894,"end":3784.581,"text":"應當是一個原則性的例如說過去我們教育部在補助地方政府的營養午餐這個我們是補助全國的弱勢國中小是21億但是地方縣市政府其實已經有10個縣市是全面的免費的營養午餐了"},{"start":3784.961,"end":3807.624,"text":"所以那其他的縣市狀況跟這十個縣市的狀況所需要的補助就會不大一樣例如說過去我們中央在這個偏鄉營養午餐補助15億針對偏鄉的儲供另外再補助4.2億那偏鄉跟都會區的需求也都會不一樣所以我是支持要給予一個彈性那我認為今天的這個立法應該要討論是比較原則性的方向"},{"start":3807.984,"end":3825.88,"text":"那將其中就是很具體的各個縣市因為大家狀況不大一樣究竟要怎麼樣來訂定其實可以放下一個階段的執法裡面來進行討論以上是我的意見 謝謝請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":3831.701,"end":3861.561,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天要在這個地方審查這個營養午餐法的草案之前其實跟大家先從一個脈絡開始講起我想財化法修正之後其實中央跟地方的權限還有財源的一個分工重新分工對這件事情在營養午餐的一個政策其實還是有它必要的一些重要的影響那過去其實中央在補助這個地方有許多的項目其實都已經透過這個財化法把一些財源都已經交到地方的手上了"},{"start":3861.901,"end":3884.796,"text":"那回到營養午餐的這個例子那中央從106年開始我們每年投入約38億來鼓勵這個使用國產的三張EQ的一個食材讓我們的國產的這個比例能夠提升到99%以上那我想這項的政策其實也非常的成功的確也讓我們的農民還有讓我們的孩子都有受惠"},{"start":3885.416,"end":3906.045,"text":"那我想財化法修法之前其實營養午餐的部分呢其實是屬於所謂的地方自治的一個事項那理應應該是由這個縣市政府他們用自由的財源來優先編列這個預算喔那中央是透過這個一般性的補助款給予我們的這個地方的政府來做所謂的這樣子的一個加強補強的一個工作喔"},{"start":3906.625,"end":3923.17,"text":"因此在115年如果由地方編列預算來支應的話照理來講應該地方也要承擔一些重要的一些事權這並不是代表說中央不買單而是我們的政策就是不要讓他更不是政策的一個退縮應該這麼講"},{"start":3924.75,"end":3951.487,"text":"那現在剛剛也有特別有委員有提到已經有10個縣市已經在自行補助了這個我們的營養午餐那證明這個地方在這個營養午餐的一個政策上面的確他是有能力那麼也有資源那同時也有彈性喔那這10個縣市包含像是桃園市那麼宜蘭那另外新竹縣市那包含彰化還有南投花蓮縣澎湖縣跟金門跟連江喔"},{"start":3952.591,"end":3981.576,"text":"好 那既然講到這個財源已經下放所以這個營養午餐就不應該變成是中央再一次的背利框架不然就變成這個中央把錢已經給了地方那現在專法又要要求這個中央再補一次其實就會變成所謂的雙重補助那這個責任 權責的部分也可能會錯置這絕對不是財化法的應該有的一個精神所以這個我們的中央跟地方的角色應該要更加的清晰"},{"start":3982.236,"end":4009.159,"text":"那當然中央負責定原則定標準那麼在食安或者是在我們的資訊的揭露還有食材的一個教育的一個目標這是屬於全國一致性的這無庸置疑這個是中央的責任那中央在集合資源的一個補貼那麼包含我們要照顧的就是像是弱勢偏鄉還有原民地區這些是非常需要來被大家關注的地方這才符合這個"},{"start":4009.619,"end":4029.04,"text":"正義公平的一個投入啦才能夠把真正的資源有效的這個放在對的一個地方喔那如果只是為了要這樣子再立一個框架讓我們的資源平均灑其實我們反而會忽略掉會弱化這些需要在"},{"start":4029.76,"end":4043.913,"text":"就是中央補助的這樣子的一個照顧的孩子身上那我想也應該要因地制宜在專法裡頭其實應該要把所謂的這個不管是地方跟中央的一個選擇我們也要劃分清楚來"},{"start":4044.934,"end":4063.461,"text":"決定就是讓地方擁有的這個財源他們來決定他們是不是要來提高這個營養午餐他們的品質然後或者是說要不要再來加碼補助那我想前一陣子也有一些輿論我相信這些是比較不負責任的一種說法就是在講說營養午餐是不是會斷炊啦"},{"start":4064.861,"end":4091.13,"text":"那這種不負責任去脈絡化的一個誤導其實會讓大家有一些不安那再次的重申其實這個政策沒有改變營養午餐不會斷追那只是說財源改變了那中央跟地方的權責是不是應該要更加的清楚那當然中央還是一樣它有它重要的一個角色跟責任的存在包含跨部會的協作另外資訊的透明 食安的一個標準"},{"start":4091.57,"end":4116.163,"text":"那我們要針對這個弱勢的學生弱勢的地區來給予這個適當的一個補助這個是絕對的喔所以我非常支持就是專法的我們必須要保持彈性那我們的資源要投對地方這也應該是我們政策才應該要前進的一個方向喔好以上請范雲委員發言"},{"start":4128.57,"end":4154.244,"text":"早委跟我們各位關心這個營養午餐法的委員大家好我想就是從2020年就是我上一屆擔任立委的時候就非常重視這個學校公餐法或者營養午餐法那我自己的版本是在我一上任的時候2020年就提出那2021年我還跟民間團體還有跟賴平委員我們共同提出這個民間版"},{"start":4154.984,"end":4170.402,"text":"所以我想我自己對這個法是非常的重視我非常了解到我們一定要根本解決校園午餐的營養師人力不足還有食材品質參差不齊跟行政人員目前他們的人力負擔過重的這些結構性的問題"},{"start":4172.925,"end":4179.77,"text":"我想听刚刚那么多的委员大家的共识是专法绝对是不可或缺的我自己的版本里面"},{"start":4203.165,"end":4220.4,"text":"但是今天我们还有一个新的议题就是上一届并没有这个才化法的冲击现在我们面对到的新的现实挑战是目前我们在场有十多个版本会整个版本中对于学校应设置的人力"},{"start":4221.501,"end":4244.23,"text":"設施設備等等都有不同的主張那有些版本的算起來財政負擔是更重的可是才化法我們也知道行政院的版本目前還卡關中那到底我們無法中我們應該要強行寫定中央跟地方的經費負擔比例人事標準還是"},{"start":4245.629,"end":4271.275,"text":"把它放在執法中那如果現在就強制寫定的話我個人是覺得有些不負責任那到底就是地方執行上是不是有可能性而且我們也知道目前的裁劃法對某些縣市地方非常的不公平那除了待會我們希望聽到教育部目前的想法之外我個人是覺得我們今天的審查"},{"start":4272.475,"end":4295.904,"text":"應該要達成高度共識就是只做比較原則性的立法那關於財政的部分當然他非常的重要那應該放在執法中等中央主管機關跟地方政府會商後更務實的推動所以我希望我們今天就是針對大家有共識的部分就是用一個原則性的部分來討論"},{"start":4297.264,"end":4316.852,"text":"那財政的部分那我主張是放在執法中而不是強制規定就是說是全部由中央或是全部由地方那如果以現在就是藍白多數通過的財化那我就覺得應該都要是地方啊可是又對某些縣市不公平還有偏鄉的部分我們當然站在全國的教育"},{"start":4317.512,"end":4340.261,"text":"公平優質的角度來講又會希望中央能夠協助那這個部分我想立委是來自不同的地方縣市還有我們全國的不分區我們應該要務實的討論今天的修法的內容以上謝謝請伍麗華委員發言"},{"start":4354.285,"end":4371.36,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁各位先進大家早今天我們討論的不是一部午餐的法而已而是一個希望能夠引領台灣未來十年二十年三十年飲食教育方向的全國性上位法"},{"start":4371.94,"end":4395.495,"text":"因此我期待未來的學校共餐及飲食教育法又或者說營養午餐法它不只是管理營養午餐的共餐方式更要肩負起這個時代賦予的使命在地食材 地產地銷 氣候變遷 循環經濟這些國際上最先進的理念都應該要納入到這部法的視野"},{"start":4396.455,"end":4418.507,"text":"讓他成為真正的全國性指導法規舉例來說 我們孩子吃的營養午餐常常都是吃到遠道而來 碳足跡更高與生活環境毫無連結的食物所以這不只是共餐的問題而是健康 文化 產業 永續全部被切割開的一個結果"},{"start":4420.448,"end":4439.244,"text":"當今天我們訂了營養午餐的專法我們要用什麼方式來回應營養教育或者還是跟以前一樣吃著遠道而來的食物忘記自己的土地原本長的是什麼我來自原鄉對我而言我最在乎的就是我們每一個部落"},{"start":4439.764,"end":4455.035,"text":"都擁有最豐富的食材但是卻最難以進入學校像小米 樹豆 芋頭各式的在地作物都在部落的土地上長得離孩子們最近這個是我一直強調的"},{"start":4456.036,"end":4474.349,"text":"民族味覺所以呢我在今年也用計畫的形式推動全國國中小營養午餐吃小米我走訪各地的學校看到我們的孩子說小米好好吃甚至很多的孩子說是第一次吃到我就知道這個"},{"start":4475.37,"end":4497.746,"text":"才是我們想要的營養五三因此在審查這個法案的時候一定要把更大的現實一起拉進來這部法涉及到的不是單一部會它會影響到未來飲食教育的走向營養師的人力配置除工與五密的工作負擔中央與地方的經營費分配未來台灣的國際貿易跟農產品標準"},{"start":4500.848,"end":4526.665,"text":"那這些制度面 人力面 財政面 國際面缺一不可那一部全國性的上位法立法的目的越清楚未來跨部會的協作才有可能那我希望看到的是一部真正能夠解決問題能夠兼顧在地農業能夠讓原鄉食材進入校園能夠讓學校端不再疲於奔命能夠跟國際規範銜接的完整版本"},{"start":4527.205,"end":4547.155,"text":"而不是倉促急救章後續又要不斷修改的版本因此呢再次我要表達本席的立場這步伐我高度期待那很希望我們在行政院收攏跨部會意見之後由院版來正式提出那最後我要說營養午餐不只是營養午餐"},{"start":4547.675,"end":4563.981,"text":"他關乎孩子的健康在地文化的延續也是台灣下一代的飲食教育期待一部真正有高度有未來的營養午餐專法讓我國的學童可以把根扎生把夢做大謝謝大家請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":4590.877,"end":4618.949,"text":"今天我們討論那個營養午餐公餐法那看得出來這是藍綠白各個黨團各個委員都很期待這個法所以有非常多的委員都有提供版本所以這個事情該不該做呢當然該做如果大家覺得不該做的話呢就不會這麼踴躍提版本那我現在不知道說剛聽了很多委員的發言聽不太出來他們是希望趕快讓這個法通過還是不希望讓這個法通過"},{"start":4620.017,"end":4631.996,"text":"因為講得很抽象很模糊感覺好像設了種種的障礙跟困難說這個法好像不適合在現在通過那到底大家是希望它通過如果希望的話"},{"start":4633.462,"end":4657.82,"text":"我是覺得盡快啦幾件事情嘛第一個大家希望小朋友吃得更健康希望啊大家希望小朋友有一些食農教育 息事教育希望啊大家希望在校園裡面的人力可以做一個調整希望啊那既然是這樣的話那何不先把其他問題先擺一邊大家先把該做的事情討論一下那我的"},{"start":4658.84,"end":4685.976,"text":"我這邊是針對這個法的具體內容有幾個建議第一個針對小朋友營養的部分因為我們常常看到有一些學校因為沒有營養師的把關或許會讓小朋友吃的沒有那麼的營養可是我們現在對於專業營養師的設置現行的辦法是40班以上才要設一個營養師但實際上很多學校是沒有達到40班"},{"start":4687.197,"end":4702.886,"text":"換句話說它就沒有營養師那我覺得這個部分是需要去做調整的那第二學校的營養午餐總共分成三類一種叫做自立廚房就是公辦公營的這符合我剛剛講的40班以上但是有"},{"start":4703.686,"end":4726.727,"text":"公辦的廚房委託給民營辦理的這個部分就沒有強制要設營養師是得設營養師得的意思就是可設可不設就由委外的單位自行來設置營養師但這個問題就在於說委外單位自己的營養師那當然自己人好講話就不會比較站在學校的角度站在學生角度去談這個事情所以"},{"start":4727.427,"end":4742.337,"text":"無論你這個是廚房委外辦理當然學校自己也應該有自己的營養師那第三 學校營養午餐很多是委託團散來辦理那團散業者同樣他會用自己的營養師學校也沒有營養師所以站在讓學生吃的"},{"start":4743.217,"end":4771.557,"text":"更營養的這個角度應該在營養午餐法裡面把營養師的設置規定清楚而且定定明白讓各校可以遵循讓小朋友可以吃得更營養更健康這是第一件事情第二個有關於午餐祕書因為現在很多學校也會設午餐祕書來處理營養午餐的問題但多半是由老師來兼任那現行的做法確實有讓老師可以有一些檢課的做法但問題是"},{"start":4773.052,"end":4792.043,"text":"伍密他實際有點像是學校的行政職但他並沒有辦法像其他的組長有行政津貼也沒有國旅卡等等就是他做了行政工作但純粹只有簡課而已那有沒有辦法讓伍密可以符合像行政人員的這些待遇然後讓"},{"start":4793.264,"end":4806.192,"text":"讓更多人願意來做舞弊我覺得也可以把它規範在法律裡面所以總而言之我覺得如果大家認為這件事情應該做的話剛剛有比較資深的像柯政委員講說第九屆就開始討論了"},{"start":4807.901,"end":4825.406,"text":"那麼如果今天不開始的話我相信會一直拖下去然後我們也希望說教育部可以快一點因為就我了解教育部上一次找地方政府討論營養午餐法是去年5月的事到現在已經一年半了等於這一年半沒有任何的作為"},{"start":4826.466,"end":4847.863,"text":"沒有任何作為的情況之下又跟大家講說這個要跟地方協調這個要幹嘛幹嘛你都沒有做那你只是 這個只是藉口所以政府想要做一件事情他要做的話有一百個理由不做的話有一千個藉口所以如果大家認為營養午餐要讓大家吃的營養的話現在就正是時候了 謝謝"},{"start":4856.371,"end":4884.86,"text":"請張雅玲委員發言好 謝謝 謝謝主席我剛剛聽完前面許多的委員的共識其實我想大家都有高度共識啦都是希望我們應該要來討論所以我不太曉得葉元之委員是前面沒有來所以沒有聽到還是又扭曲了"},{"start":4885.74,"end":4914.476,"text":"我想剛剛都非常清楚的表達說大家都認為營養五三法非常的重要從之前就已經有就已經有在討論了所以我想大家包含剛剛不管是國民黨的委員或也好或是民進黨的委員也好都認為說我們是在原則性上面來討論而且我想待會可能教育部也可以說明一下因為據我所知我們今年都還是有跟地方政府在討論因為桃園市政府就有跟我講這件事情所以我想這個部分該闢謠的地方我們還是要說清楚"},{"start":4915.377,"end":4918.588,"text":"那再來接下來請你不要干擾我的發言主席請控制一下"},{"start":4922.084,"end":4946.645,"text":"對 再來就是說我想今天所有的委員的發言都認為我們的學校營養午餐小孩吃不吃得飽有沒有健康有沒有安全有沒有食安的問題其實都是非常重要的特別來說我也認為說對許多的弱勢家庭孩子來說午餐是孩子一天當中最完整最穩定的一餐"},{"start":4947.185,"end":4972.796,"text":"所以今天的修法我想大家都是謹慎的來看待特別是我也想提出一個問題就是說在我們現行的體制之下我們許多吃的人是學生他們最清楚菜色 份量 食材好不好可是許多的委員會他們是無法加入所以他們的聲音是無法被聽見的所以在我的版本裡面就把學生代表來把它納入了再來第二個問題也是"},{"start":4975.171,"end":5002.247,"text":"我們現在也有一些版本是有提到說高中生要把它納入但是我覺得大家也可以來思考一下現在許多的高中生其實有非常高度的自主性其實他們很希望自己決定自己來吃什麼如果我們把它放進去的時候會不會造成其實有非常多都最後變成的是廚餘那現在我們這個廚餘的處理的問題也會是一個很大的問題所以到底要不要把高中納入我覺得委員們可能還是要回"},{"start":5003.329,"end":5006.306,"text":"思考一下我們這個高中生的一個主體性跟一個自主性"},{"start":5007.341,"end":5033.146,"text":"那再來第三個部分就是營養師的門檻也是大家一直在關注的我們到底這個比例要怎麼調我想也是這次說法非常關鍵的一個部分不過我也有看見就是在我們過去呢在教育部的努力之下呢其實我們已經有提供許多在地的食材不管是豬肉牛肉等等的我們都有落實學生衛生法的規定那也有要求說公益膳食跟"},{"start":5034.306,"end":5058.124,"text":"這個食材呢應該要優先採用中央農業主管機關所認定的在地優良農產產品然後如果沒有使用國材的部分呢肉類有相關的罰則那我也希望在這一點上面我們要做更延伸的一個飲食教育就呼應前面吳麗華委員講的我們應該讓孩子更了解每個食物到底從哪裡來的然後我們會更"},{"start":5058.604,"end":5064.049,"text":"藉由這個食物也去了解不管是營養的部分還有鄉土文化 國家文化的部分"},{"start":5065.1,"end":5090.056,"text":"那再來呢還有一個部分我想也是今天大家都非常非常的明確討論的就是為什麼行政院到現在還沒有提出一個完整明確的營養午餐本本其實就是像剛剛大家都一直不停的在強調就是才化法還沒有完成事權的劃分中央跟地方到底是誰負責什麼經費誰出補助的比例要怎麼算"},{"start":5090.816,"end":5116.353,"text":"但沒有講清楚我想營養午餐的一個制度就沒有辦法長期的被制度化我覺得也會造成之後是一個不負責任的立法因為目前的模式是中央訂標準地方跑流程學校負責執行但是實際上常常大家都是卡來卡去的中央訂了要求地方說沒有錢地方想提升品質學校說沒有行政人力廠商出問題家長不知道找誰負責"},{"start":5117.093,"end":5135.3,"text":"治權不一責任不清資源不到位就是現在最大的一個結構性的問題所以我也非常贊同我們需要法治化但是呢事權如果沒有先理清楚後面的經費人力採購集合會全部卡住"},{"start":5137.068,"end":5160.71,"text":"所以我想現在最重要的就是要把這些責任跟資源分配清楚我們才能夠做出一份真正落地孩子也能夠吃的一個安心的一個長期的制度所以我想還是呼應一下我希望我們今天就是回到一個原則性的立法那等到財化法比較明確之後我們再來把相關的一些預算分配把它落入在執法上面 謝謝"},{"start":5167.228,"end":5170.735,"text":"請羅廷維委員好好 請游皓委員發言"},{"start":5179.389,"end":5198.318,"text":"OK那謝謝趙偉那其實剛才講了那麼久啊那不要說院版的提出的情況那其實這個案子來講的話其實從第九屆就討論到現在那當然我相信教育部的話本來就已經有教育部所朝理的法案也經過了許多的討論"},{"start":5199.458,"end":5220.248,"text":"其實今天在座的許多委員有提到才化法的部分其實這個並不是理由因為相信在座每一位委員都是關心我們這次食品養法就是我們學校公餐法的這一個委員所以在座每一位都是關心的但是才化法如果覺得有問題的話其實就實際上來討論"},{"start":5221.889,"end":5245.319,"text":"如果說今天來講四千億都可以直接在賴清德總統的的直接宣示下就直接就可以來提供或是甚至1.25兆還都可以直接昨天講了他今天就要來送院那為什麼要犧牲這個我們學生的一個食品營養法或是公餐的相關的權益那裡面許多原則的部分其實大家都說每個都很重要"},{"start":5245.879,"end":5275.679,"text":"不管是透明還不管是營養師不管是程序上或者是包括在許多種種的就是採購流程或者是平台或者是相關的一個資訊揭露的部分那每位委員都覺得這個很重要教育部也覺得很重要所以今天的話就儘快來進行來討論應該是對全國的這個小朋友或是學生來講是最負責任的做法所以說這個市民養法我們今天來講這個學校公餐的部分他不應該是打假球啊"},{"start":5275.819,"end":5300.837,"text":"那所以在座的每一個委員其實我覺得才化法它不是原因了啦那其實包括1.25兆的話都可以直接來進行的話我覺得犧牲不應該是學生食品營養的一個權益啊所以我在想這個部分應該盡快的來進行討論應該才是最負責任的做法那同樣的也肯定在座的每一位委員一定都是關心學生還關心食品營養權益的委員謝謝"},{"start":5305.59,"end":5306.254,"text":"請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":5324.481,"end":5346.892,"text":"首先今天還是要再一次的肯定召委今天排審我們學校營養午餐專法但對於行政院還是沒有送到這個院版來到立法院我們還是要予以譴責我們可以看到前面有AIG本法現在有我們的營養午餐的專法教育部之108年就已經承諾要提出營養午餐專法"},{"start":5347.552,"end":5371.64,"text":"有啦教育部有在努力但行政院呢就把他擺在那邊完全沒有任何的進度我們看到年年都承諾年年都跳票今年3月教文委員會就排審營養午餐專法教育部又推託要因應財化法的一個修正需要跟地方政府溝通相關經費拜託這個已經老掉重痰了從108年到現在"},{"start":5376.199,"end":5401.699,"text":"這幾年當中之前有才化法嗎我們還是要在這強調我們是為了孩子這個不要再推脫趕緊去做而且2019年教育部就已經擬拒了相關的午餐條例4月3日就已經公告了期間4到6月召開多次的公聽會座談會國教署也於112年成立了學校的這個午餐科都已經準備好但是6年過去了"},{"start":5402.319,"end":5419.73,"text":"是什麼樣的一個原因讓一部催生六年的法案現在躺在政院躺在政院躺在政院就是因為科的成績太低嘛無法食材烹調食安運輸飲食等多面向的一個問題去想辦法處理啊"},{"start":5420.802,"end":5443.654,"text":"教育部的網站112年12月28日的新聞稿還高高掛著教育部預計立法院下一會期提出學生我們最關注的學校午餐的專法所以我們要跟大家國人報告一年過去到現在都還沒有看到"},{"start":5444.71,"end":5466.478,"text":"有關學童健康安全均衡飲食的一個法案到底要等多久再一次跟大家分享日本1954年韓國1981年就已經制定了學校的幾時法所以台灣至今都沒有這個學校的午餐專法"},{"start":5467.694,"end":5474.662,"text":"我們的我國學童的這個營養午餐的權益遠遠的是落後了鄰近國家"},{"start":5476.232,"end":5499.957,"text":"所以我们也希望真的好好的能够来探讨这一次的营养午餐专访不只是我个人对于整个营养师厨工午餐秘书校园的老师的权益分配工作也好以及最重要的是我们在公餐的时候所保障学生的权益我们能够落实到什么样的一个地步来加强"},{"start":5500.717,"end":5509.646,"text":"整個學校 公餐 飲食的最重要的一個保障所以我要再一次的跟大家分享這不是我說的"},{"start":5510.765,"end":5533.526,"text":"今年2月27日 監委田秋瑾 蔡崇義發布的新聞稿講得很清楚 各縣市學校午餐自治條例等不同法律的規章缺乏全國一致性的做法 以學校的午餐費用為例各縣市補助的一個午餐金額 跟學生的餐費皆不相同"},{"start":5534.207,"end":5547.776,"text":"所以針對食材費用佔餐費的比例皆無強制的規範不但影響了學生用餐的品質亦造成各縣市的學生權益不平等的一個現象"},{"start":5548.962,"end":5564.216,"text":"所以現在學生對於營養午餐的滿意度是低落的往往轉以零食飲料來裹付國家投注的經費新力付諸流水"},{"start":5565.188,"end":5588.117,"text":"教育部应该要检讨改进必要跟大家报告这不是我说的这是监委的新闻稿是用国家投注资金费心力付诸流水这样子的一个用字遣词这么的一个积极的去要求教育部应该要改善"},{"start":5589.4,"end":5606.961,"text":"我還是要再次強調教育部有努力我有看到但行政院呢行政院沒有努力那教育部等於就是零你的努力完全都是沒有看到任何進展所以今天為什麼我們這麼的審慎一定要來想辦法學校營養午餐的專法今天有所開始"},{"start":5607.864,"end":5635.544,"text":"一方面感謝召委給行政院一點壓力給教育部一點壓力趕快出院班讓我們能夠真正的來討論要不然要再等一個六年嗎我們等了多久了我們希望大家都在看家長在看 孩子在等還有這些營養師 午餐秘書 教職人員我們都希望趕快催生這一部專法以上"},{"start":5643.472,"end":5649.471,"text":"現在請李燕秀委員發言可是很久了"},{"start":5657.53,"end":5672.903,"text":"非常感谢赵伟今天的安排营养午餐法在我们立法院讨论了将近六年的时间刚才罗定位委员其实说明得非常清楚无论是临近的韩国跟日本早就已经有营养午餐法"},{"start":5673.624,"end":5694.059,"text":"我们都知道我们台湾不比欧美国家比亚洲邻近几个国家我们台湾的孩子在营养不良的比例上事实上无论是过胖或过瘦都属营养不良我们的平均值事实上近几年都输给韩国跟日本"},{"start":5694.779,"end":5717.185,"text":"我們的孩子幾乎是有一天有將近一半以上的時間都是在校園裡面生活所以無論是中午這一餐其實對於孩子來說非常的重要那也根據兒福過去的這個調查我們現在的孩子在學校吃營養午餐他給營養午餐的平均分數只有51.3分"},{"start":5719.326,"end":5743.047,"text":"当然高温之后如果不是在学校里面马上做的热食经过高温焖了之后很多菜原本热的好吃经过焖了之后就不好吃孩子不爱吃所以包括很多学校也说教职员还要兼聘很多针对于学校在安排营养菜色的部分的考核所以营养午餐法"},{"start":5743.988,"end":5767.762,"text":"我覺得在現階段我們應該盡速的讓學校的教職員回到學校教職的本職我們更應該要有專職的人員來去做把關怎麼樣去把營養午餐做得更好所以在這一塊我們除了對於營養午餐法的內容之外我們更希望加入更多的食農的教育讓孩子知道即便小黃瓜"},{"start":5768.802,"end":5794.699,"text":"红萝卜不爱吃但是我们缺乏什么我们一定要补充最重要的原因我再一次感谢教育部在这边已经有布板我想这也都是我们平常跟家长团体在互动过程沟通过程当中很多人的期待所以刚才我也听到大家说因为才化法的关系所以没有办法送那我就会认为非常遗憾才化法的部分无论是中央跟地方的事权"},{"start":5795.64,"end":5815.698,"text":"可以随着时间的调整我们立即去做沟通协商但是绝对不要等财化法如果所有东西都要等财化法的话那所有的事情都不用做了比如之前的儿女发生的时候我们也是立即修地质法中央跟地方沟通把专责医师的责任"},{"start":5816.579,"end":5845.047,"text":"部分挪给地方去处理所以我觉得不要因为财务法的关系而是这一个营养午餐法如果是各政党的共识的话我们非常期待今天就有机会把这个版本大家有共识尽速的送出去经过后续的朝野协商冷冻期的时间哪些地方需要再调整我们可以去做维护的调整我觉得更重要的是大家看在孩子吃的健康营养这才是更重要的以上"},{"start":5850.492,"end":5858.176,"text":"請陳培宇委員發言陳培宇委員發言之後我們就請行政部門來做回覆喔好 謝謝好 OK 好請問現在有限時嗎"},{"start":5869.215,"end":5895.233,"text":"沒有現實 謝謝主席謝謝主席剛剛保留給我這個登記發言的機會我想我們辦公室從2023年地補進入立法院之後我們辦公室最關心的議題其實就是營養午餐法剛剛有非常多委員有提到日本跟韓國都已經有立法了可是我要拜託大家我們在參考其他國家的立法例的時候要把不同國家的社會環境跟民情背景一律考慮進去"},{"start":5896.374,"end":5920.356,"text":"不能認為其他國家有立法或是其他國家的立法樣態是怎麼做我們就全板照抄這個會有問題怎麼說呢例如說日本是在30年前就已經立法所以他們對於國內食材的重視還有廚工 營養師 學校教師 家長各自的分工其實在當時的時空背景跟現在台灣的困境截然不同"},{"start":5920.796,"end":5948.921,"text":"因此我也希望在後續的主條討論當中我們不要把日本跟韓國的東西拿來全本照抄尤其是台灣現在跟其他亞洲國家一樣都面臨人工不足的困境所以如果人工不足的問題反映在團餐料理孩子們營養午餐的現場或者是反映在營養教育的現場甚至是反映在學校食農教育的現場我們都會有發現不同的"},{"start":5949.941,"end":5972.299,"text":"人力的困境好 这是第一个那第二个因为办公室长期持续关注营养午餐议题所以我们跟营养午餐相关的团体不管是大家所熟悉的所谓团善业者或者是在做食农教育跟营养教育的民间好朋友 民间团体或者是相关的学者专家还有更重要的是家长团体"},{"start":5972.879,"end":5991.23,"text":"當然最最最重要其實是每天在吃這些營養午餐的孩子們所以相關兒少團體我們也都有很多的討論喔在這些討論當中大家對於台灣即將要有一個營養午餐專法都表認同而且大家都樂見期待只是在這些期待值當中"},{"start":5991.65,"end":6008.235,"text":"每一個人會就自己的專業位置和所面臨的困境提出各自的建議跟見解例如說營養師的角色例如說午餐秘書的角色例如說食農教育教師的角色跟學校裡頭其他老師如何分工"},{"start":6008.635,"end":6031.859,"text":"因此我期待在後續的很多主條討論當中我們可以很務實的看見學校現在所面臨的困境第三個我要再一次提出強調跟呼籲目前在營養午餐當中我們所看到三張EQ用國產食材的補助這件事情目前是中央協助出資進行三張EQ的"},{"start":6032.639,"end":6055.825,"text":"所以讓台灣的孩子們可以在日常生活當中吃到滿滿的國產食材但是在去年12月20號通過荒謬的藍白版本才化法之後我們看見中央跟地方的財務困境可能就會展現在後續的營養午餐法討論當中到底國產食材這件事情如何在相關"},{"start":6057.946,"end":6072.177,"text":"大家都認同這件事情是正確前提之下往下推進但關鍵是錢要誰來出這個非常非常重要我希望我們可以進入實質討論還有就是五蜜的費用或者是營養師的費用或者是"},{"start":6073.178,"end":6088.98,"text":"各式各樣政策推進的費用我認為也會在後續的修法中進行討論可能也是會有爭議的地方我都希望大家可以實質討論另外我要呼籲也提醒大家目前全台灣有10個縣市的學校營養午餐是免收費"},{"start":6089.801,"end":6115.646,"text":"免收費的意思是不管是由地方政府還是由中央政府來承擔孩子們的餐費但總之家長跟孩子就是不用付費可是在過去不用付費的很多案例當中我們看到有優點也有缺點而後續對於營養午餐收費基準跟各地方的標準如何有一個大家的共識我認為也是之後討論營養午餐可能會有蠻多爭議的地方"},{"start":6116.426,"end":6132.06,"text":"還有就是也要謝謝前行政院長蘇院長在位的時候他提及協助偏鄉午餐的部分所以我們有看到設置了相關的廚房或者是相關的食材登錄平台我們希望透過偏鄉食材的補助"},{"start":6132.84,"end":6147.599,"text":"相關運費 經費的補助可以讓偏鄉的孩子們不要在營養午餐這件事情上有相對剝奪感可是我們看到後續平台的維運或者是相關偏鄉經費的補助要如何中央跟地方分工我認為也是後續我們在討論的時候非常重要的議題"},{"start":6150.482,"end":6177.947,"text":"還有現在不管是團善業者或者是學校的公辦公營到底如何在這些不同提供營養午餐的形式跟樣態當中讓每一個人或者是每一個被服務的人都有相關的角色跟位置並且負起相關的責任我認為也很重要還有在這次修法當中也看到有人提及在餐食當中如何納入多元文化這件事情也很重要也就是說我希望在"},{"start":6179.027,"end":6205.34,"text":"非常樂見相關排案修法逐條討論但是我也希望在後續的討論當中我們可以真的逐條逐條找到不管是執政黨或是在野黨之間最大的共識而不要只是貿然都保留然後送出如果我們真的可以在每一條每一條細緻的討論找到對於中央地方政府或者是對於我剛剛所說的每一個相關人都最好的立場我認為是最好"},{"start":6205.9,"end":6209.904,"text":"畢竟現在都已經有在野黨提案要研會到1月底以上 謝謝"},{"start":6216.278,"end":6239.623,"text":"現在大體討論的委員發言結束大家可以看到是總共有14位委員進行了這樣的一個發言那看出來是委員們對不同的委員會的來源都對這個議題非常的重視那我們現在請教育部部長先做一個初步的回應看他到時候是不是有署長要再做回應請"},{"start":6247.745,"end":6272.983,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝我們召委那麼用心安排這個學生的無常話也感謝我們各位委員對家長老師社會大眾都關心的我們的學童的在學校營養午餐是不是吃得健康是不是能夠保留在地文化的讓在地文化的延續是不是能夠"},{"start":6275.635,"end":6299.828,"text":"这一个碳足迹能够减少因为我们在地食材的使用能够符合我们SDGs里面所强调的价值怎么样提供一个良好透过这个营养午餐让学童也养成一个良好的饮食习惯也能够真实也能够实时有一个相当好的一个饮食的一个教育"},{"start":6300.882,"end":6317.649,"text":"那我想這個都是大家所關心的成為剛才委員感謝剛才委員的一個關心事實上當然我們現在學校營養午餐專法的一個草案還沒有通過但是我們在這一個學校衛生法裡邊"},{"start":6326.789,"end":6354.421,"text":"我們事實上第16條第22條第23條之三對學童的營養午餐的一個維護不遺餘力也就是說我們過去大家也根據這個從我們期待的一個想像中的一個怎麼樣給兒童用的更健康飲食更健康也能夠兼顧在地食材他能夠減少碳足跡吃的健康食材是"},{"start":6356.33,"end":6385.022,"text":"這個新鮮的我們的國產豬的使用我想在這邊引用一個數據在當我們這個學校衛生法開始就更積極關照也就委員所關心的108年開始大家在關心的時候那時候的一個在地食材使用不到八成但是這些年來因為委員的關心大家的一個努力"},{"start":6386.161,"end":6412.188,"text":"我們從不到八成到現在已經98.98%也就是說可以說是99%都是用在地食材然後我們的國產豬我們的豬肉也是已經達到百分之百也就是說我們委員所關心的因為我們現在的雖然我們希望有一個更完整的一個學校午餐傳話"},{"start":6413.496,"end":6433.081,"text":"能够通过但是我们所期待的吃的健康在地食材还有这个国产猪的一个使用我们现在事实上可以说这五年来透过我们委员的关心透过我们这个国教署包括我们跨部会的一些努力我们事实上"},{"start":6434.697,"end":6452.623,"text":"達到了一定程度的一個品質上的一個這個監管也就是說在在地食材三章EQ包含偏鄉協同的一個照顧偏鄉廚房的一個設施補助弱勢學生剛才也有委員特別提到事實上在有關偏鄉那"},{"start":6453.723,"end":6464.697,"text":"部分的一個補助包括廚房還有弱勢學生的照顧三張EQ的一個補助基本上都是由行政院的專款來補助有74億我簡單的來講"},{"start":6468.973,"end":6485.867,"text":"委員所關心的,其實國教署,我也利用這個機會,還是要稱讚一下我們彭署長的團隊。委員的一個交付,從108年4月3號公告草案以後,前後召開了四次的公聽會跟座談會。"},{"start":6487.288,"end":6512.84,"text":"也因為這樣一個座談會這四次的座談會所以從109年到112年透過這一個公聽會的意見的反應座談會的意見反應我們開始對偏鄉因為許多縣市他們希望在偏鄉有一個專案的計畫提供實質的這個需求上的協助也能夠確保我們偏鄉協同的因素所以"},{"start":6514.059,"end":6542.878,"text":"在這裡邊我們對偏鄉的照顧是來自於108年開始的四次的公聽會那麼113年召開了六次的諮詢會也邀請了這個部會地方政府學者專家學校人員及民間團體還有學生代表那麼透過這六次的諮詢會裡面在去年13年11月20號把這個草案送到行政院我想教育部"},{"start":6543.874,"end":6572.576,"text":"我們所有的同仁不敢這個怠惰我們也秉持委員關心還有家長學生怎麼樣維護學生的這個飲食健康我想在這個部分我們也積極的在做但是也因為地方政府剛才委員提到他確實是屬於地方的一個權責財力的不同也是"},{"start":6573.743,"end":6584.287,"text":"行政院一直希望我們能夠跟地方更充分的看怎麼樣能夠建立共識那麼我也利用這個機會跟各位委員報告"},{"start":6586.127,"end":6615.136,"text":"我們因為我們現在營養午餐專法還沒有通過但是台灣已經有10個縣市他已經全部讓我們的中小學生是免費使用營養午餐雖然這裡邊的各縣市全國22個縣市的營養午餐包含這個偏鄉的一些差額的補助還是來自於國教署編列預算也感謝委員的一個支持"},{"start":6616.096,"end":6626.871,"text":"那我們現在裡邊所看到的就是確實陳儒委員所關心的因為地方本已縣市首長他們的一個施政的想法"},{"start":6627.782,"end":6650.284,"text":"容貨已經有十個縣市免費提供但是確實還有一定比例的在有關委員所關心的全國的這個各地這個它有一個差異性所以在營養師五密的一個提供人力跟儲供的提供確實是不同的他們會有一些不同的看法"},{"start":6650.965,"end":6677.019,"text":"另外委員也指出了那些目前還沒有辦法建立共識確實委員關心的是對的高中生的自主性是高的他們不希望學校來在學校吃營養午餐那麼目前各縣市會高中生有吃營養午餐基本上是屬於完全中學也就是說國中他提供了但是高中"},{"start":6677.819,"end":6706.348,"text":"要不要一校兩制所以我們才在這個部分保留雖然名稱為高級中等以下的學校但是我們保留了讓各校本以他的一個學生跟學生的一個自治跟溝通學校保留他的一個彈性所以在這個部分但是已經有完全中學的怎麼樣讓他這個營養午餐的一個使用也能夠確保"},{"start":6708.068,"end":6717.375,"text":"這個新鮮安全健康這是我們大概也把他納進來法案上為什麼會有這樣的一個考量那我想"},{"start":6719.656,"end":6745.259,"text":"教育部的立場跟各位是一樣我們絕對怎麼樣維護學童的一個這個吃的健康 吃的新鮮 吃的安全然後又能夠符合具有教育的意涵我想我們的想法都是一致的也感謝委員一路以來的一個關心我想我們繼續來努力確實地方的一個權責 財力的不同"},{"start":6746.42,"end":6773.093,"text":"許多的共識這也是我們一路走來雖然有草案行政院也收到了教育部提出的一個草案到現在還是沒有放棄跟地方希望能夠更多的一些溝通能夠建立共識能夠因地制宜以上補充謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝部長請回座請問國教署署長有要做些小小補充嗎沒有好"},{"start":6777.93,"end":6787.245,"text":"那我們現在也就尋答了有沒有想要再進步的 沒有我們就進入到我們現在就進入沒錯我們現在就進入到逐條討論我們就下到這個位置上面來"},{"start":6834.158,"end":6863.617,"text":"委員范雲等、馬文君等、盧明哲等、王立民等、彭茂凱等、黃建豪等及葛立軍等提案法案名稱學校公參法案草案委員楊秋烏等提案法案名稱學校公參條例法案委員李建啟等提案法案名稱學校午餐期營養促進條例草案委員鍾佳冰等提案法案名稱學校午餐法案草案委員郭瑞琴、李珊瑩等提案法案名稱學校午餐期飲食教育法草案"},{"start":6875.587,"end":6879.289,"text":"好各位委員我們現在進入到俗條討論那"},{"start":6882.45,"end":6897.365,"text":"委員會這邊有提供的是兩個這樣子的上下冊的條文對照表整個部分那部分是以民眾黨的立委黨團的提案再放在第一個這個叫做基準表"},{"start":6898.486,"end":6915.242,"text":"可是我們今天看到是教育部他就在今天我們看到他就有一個這樣子大本的一個同樣是分條文的對照表那他這邊大家也知道是因為沒有院版的那他們就已經盡責的"},{"start":6916.883,"end":6934.195,"text":"他提出來說一個教育部的建議文字那他們是用這樣的表那我當然就必須討論因為有一個基準版的部分我們要做修訂大家知道我們到時候有修訂出來的任何的不管是多少條那有一個很重要的就是大家修正出來的只要委員會送出來一定是大家綜合出來的版本"},{"start":6934.995,"end":6951.872,"text":"那所以但是必須要有因為還是有一個基準的部分那我就想問大家一個大家意見就是說討論一下是要用我們原來委員會以我們都是我們自己委員會出份的還是說以教育部的然後他是用建議文字的方式來主理"},{"start":6955.549,"end":6968.887,"text":"是 但如果是大家同意嗎 有沒有不同意的以教育部的 因為我覺得大家條數都不大同啦這樣子不好溝通啦 好不好好 如果確定是這條 沒有異議嘛那這個做成一個會議紀錄"},{"start":6970.969,"end":6986.982,"text":"這樣子的話我們就以教育部的這一本的部分來做一個基準的條文的逐條修訂的依據我們現在從一個法案名稱開始法案名稱是"},{"start":6993.566,"end":7012.556,"text":"台灣民眾黨提案等35案那裡面包括的由大家如果在第一頁的部分就是在第二格的內容上面我們看到是教育部的建議文不好意思 主席不好意思那我們現在是不是不好意思"},{"start":7012.876,"end":7030.606,"text":"我們現在是不是就是現在以這本開始那就是以教育部的版本開始嘛我剛才就說大家沒有異議啊現在這樣子嘛所以我們現在名稱也就開始從教育部的版本開始嘛沒錯 從名稱然後有沒有章節再刻一條我想說要不要把35個版本全念完是不是應該是不用嘛對啊"},{"start":7031.929,"end":7048.872,"text":"好這樣子那我們先用以教育部的建議文字的他的版本是高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例大家有沒有意見好那個柯政委員然後再來是萬美玲委員好還有張雅玲委員"},{"start":7050.393,"end":7076.832,"text":"好 其實其實他在108年4月3號的時候就公告草案裡面就因為一些的討論政院的時候他那時候就把改名為學校午餐及飲食教育條例我覺得這個名稱其實是比較能夠反映現況那目前為止又把它加上了高級中學以下我還是認為要考量到不同學制啦高中的學生如果家裡有小孩在我家小孩念過高中了啦根本就是10點多就開始就"},{"start":7078.573,"end":7100.84,"text":"十點半就已經在吃午餐了然後呢中午時有一堆Uber或是跳牆出去外面吃東西所以沒有人在學校裡面在吃午餐了啦所以說我個人認為然後呢還是用學校午餐及飲食教育條例這樣的名稱就足以界定夠清楚了所以去掉高級中學以下這幾個字以上"},{"start":7102.813,"end":7119.021,"text":"好 請萬美玲委員發言好 謝謝召委我想我也部分支持柯志恩委員的說法我認為這個高級中等以下這個學校這個部分高級中等這個要拿掉了剛剛其實我在大體討論的時候就有講了"},{"start":7120.422,"end":7149.349,"text":"就是我們現在其實高中的孩子其實自主性都滿高的更何況其實你在條文裡面你又有特別寫到說高級中等學校供應學生午餐德經學校午餐供應會或相關會議決議改由其他的方式辦理所以其實教育部也應該已經考量到這個問題點了就是高中的孩子你要在這個營養午餐的午餐時間去做一些限制跟規範我想這會引起非常大的反彈其實部裡面就已經考慮到了"},{"start":7150.089,"end":7177.163,"text":"但是我覺得那就不要化蛇添足那還要去規範說是高級中等以下學校然後又再講說那你可以自行開會去決議所以我認為應該是把高級中等以下學校高級中等這個部分拿掉但是我認為其實我們所謂的營養午餐專法可能從第九屆 十屆 十屆這麼多年以來就是營養午餐專法就是很清楚所以其實我覺得其實我們就是把名稱定為學校營養午餐法"},{"start":7179.204,"end":7181.629,"text":"我覺得就是簡單明瞭易懂以上"},{"start":7186.55,"end":7209.753,"text":"議區嗎張雅玲委員沒有 剛才有排序剛才我們這邊有分區好那我先開始就是說我一樣啦就是呼應我自己剛剛在大體討論的時候都有提到就是高中的學生自主性非常高那因為其實也有一些委員的版本的確是有講到高級中等以下學校那因為其實在許多內部的文章"},{"start":7209.953,"end":7224.18,"text":"也都有講到我想我們這邊可能就要先確定我們這個法案裡面到底要不要含括我覺得可能在這一次的時候現在我們就可以先來做這個討論這是第一個那第二個是說這到底是法還是條例"},{"start":7225.807,"end":7253.939,"text":"因為有蠻多委員都是提法但是現在教育部給的文字是條例但是依據中央法規的標準基本法法其實是一個全國性的一般性的事項所以我自己會看我們應該是這次是比較適合用法才對所以我這邊是希望說我們是不是可以把這個這個匯法案的名稱直接就定為學校午餐及飲食教育法謝謝"},{"start":7257.355,"end":7258.479,"text":"好 請01級委員發言"},{"start":7261.485,"end":7288.086,"text":"好 謝謝主席我很贊同前面幾位委員就是說我們要把這個高級中學中等以下這個學校拿掉因為確實這個營養午餐現在最主要我們的供應對象就是國小跟國中特別是我們如果隨著時代慢慢演變或許國中 再來國中也不喜歡營養午餐可是所以至少現在的目前高中生是不可能"},{"start":7289.046,"end":7304.662,"text":"吃你學校供應的午餐所以我覺得我們就面對事實名稱的問題我倒是覺得我贊同剛剛雅玲的建議就是說把它改成學校午餐及飲食教育法我覺得這樣不錯 以上羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":7313.496,"end":7332.987,"text":"好 我想各位委員大概都對於這個高級中等以下都覺得有點落口我們還是希望簡單明瞭那營養午餐 營養午餐念了這麼多年了所以我覺得就學校營養午餐法這樣子最簡單明瞭這個部分"},{"start":7335.41,"end":7357.794,"text":"集飲食教育法就其實大家我覺得是簡單明瞭啦對不對所以有很多人就是學校營養午餐集什麼什麼我覺得就很簡單明瞭就是學校營養午餐法這樣就好可以請大家那個有行政人員在這邊打上一些相關的就是一些變化等等"},{"start":7359.99,"end":7361.892,"text":"那現在請郭育晴委員發言郭育晴委員發言對不起是陳秀寶委員發言之後是郭育晴委員發言請準備"},{"start":7382.296,"end":7401.036,"text":"其實我的提案是學校飲食法但我也覺得說教育部這邊你們所寫的這個學校午餐及飲食教育條例學校午餐及飲食教育是比較聚焦但是條例的話我會希望說它是一個法"},{"start":7401.536,"end":7421.805,"text":"好那刚才其实很多委员都有提到说关于高中的这个部分我也觉得真的我们规定学校国小国中如果到高中去是不太适合现在学生的需求跟想法因为高中生对自己的饮食规划是很有主见的所以我觉得说我们这一步法我们规定"},{"start":7422.625,"end":7446.349,"text":"學校的午餐及飲食教育那對於這個高級中等以下這六個字我們就不要列進去讓我們的這個法其實就是在很明顯的就是在我們學校的午餐供應跟飲食教育上面那這個級別就是在高級中等學校這個部分我們不要列入讓這個法是很清楚的以上"},{"start":7450.107,"end":7468.722,"text":"請郭玉琴委員發言下一位是范雲委員請準備好那剛剛其實大家都已經有提到重點了就是這個高中生其實對自己的這個營養午餐非常有主見不要講高中生啦我小孩是國二他已經非常有主見了偶爾都會跟我講說媽媽我今天不要吃學校的營養午餐可以幫我叫Uber這樣"},{"start":7469.443,"end":7495.198,"text":"所以我的提案的部分我是寫學校午餐及飲食教育法草案我會用法的原因是覺得法是比較範圍更廣可能會在中間有一些條例當中會比較容易有一些彈性所以個人覺得我的提案是學校午餐及飲食教育法草案這是我的提案的部分以上"},{"start":7498.509,"end":7513.363,"text":"現在請半雲委員發言下一位準備是林月琴委員大家好我提案的版本是叫做學校公餐法草案可是當時我這麼定是有個原因因為我上一屆有提過那個飲食教育法"},{"start":7513.743,"end":7536.693,"text":"那我擔心如果我跟上一屆一樣的話等一下教育部如果是公餐法的話萬一沒有被召委排入的話就不好所以我非常的支持就是民村裡面可以是學校午餐及飲食教育或者是學校公餐及飲食教育因為我的版本就很強調飲食教育跟就是剩食的部分"},{"start":7537.413,"end":7562.25,"text":"但是我想要請教育部是不是能夠解釋一下條例放成條例不放法的原因另外一個部分是因為我的版本原本是把幼兒園跟高中都放進去因為希望說如果有這麼好的事情不管高中生有沒有一部分人要吃Uber還是希望提供但是我看到教育部好像希望"},{"start":7562.97,"end":7579.9,"text":"高中的時候就不要有這個部分了幼兒園的話是要放到別的法律中但是我還是提出就是原本我的精神是希望即使高中生會吃Uber那學校還是能夠有營養午餐可以供應的以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":7581.297,"end":7599.63,"text":"好 請林月 請委員發言陳佩玉委員請準備我這邊我的名稱也是學校公餐及飲食教育法草案那等一下也是請教一部解釋一下條例跟法為什麼這樣子有不同然後另外一個是"},{"start":7600.751,"end":7614.99,"text":"我覺得飲食教育還是要放入再把法的名稱界定的話比較清楚的是後邊會去談到飲食教育因為這也是過去一直比較弱的那高中目前我自己的孩子大概"},{"start":7615.951,"end":7630.359,"text":"在高中階段通常他們會使用學校的營養午餐他們自主性比較高通常會使用的可能性會比較低那這樣子是不是也造成很多廚餘的問題這個我覺得可能要考量"},{"start":7631.48,"end":7660.206,"text":"比較反對的是幼兒園要放進去為什麼因為畢竟幼兒園第一個有幼照法已經有規範了而且幼兒園的餐食跟我們大國中小的事實上是非常不相同他們還有所謂的點心這一塊而且比例上各方面要處理的細緻程度也不一樣如果同樣在這一部法裡面我覺得會對幼兒園的孩子事實上反而相對是不利的所以我認為應該要把它排除掉以上"},{"start":7661.581,"end":7676.784,"text":"好請陳培宇委員發言葉元芝委員請準備主席不好意思我打岔一下剛剛蔡易瑜委員有舉手我怕你沒有登記到有有有好那我講一下關於學校的那個法案的名字我認為因為"},{"start":7677.905,"end":7699.895,"text":"這一次大家除了對於營養午餐怎麼供應的形式還有相關規定大家非常在意之外其實更多委員一起關心的還包含飲食教育所以到底要不要放入飲食教育還是寫一個很基本的午餐就好了我都覺得是可以討論的但是我認為把飲食教育標示出來還是有其意義也希望我們等一下討論的時候大家可以針對這部分討論"},{"start":7701.155,"end":7724.502,"text":"那另外關於把高級中等以下學校這個部分拿掉我原則上也是認同的只是說我要提醒各位目前我們在完中裡面的高中他們通常會搭配國中部一起吃團餐營養午餐所以如何把這個部分不要漏掉但是又可以考慮進去所以到底要不要包含高級中等以下學校還是有什麼寫法"},{"start":7725.382,"end":7741.019,"text":"我這邊也想聽聽教育部的建議我再次強調因為完中的高中是可能會跟著一起吃學校的這個團散午餐以上 謝謝好 請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":7744.915,"end":7765.041,"text":"因為我們現在是在討論題目啦那我自己法案的名稱叫做學校飲食健康促進法我覺得這個健康促進法就有包含營養午餐還有食農教育或飲食教育那也比較簡單一點那至於說要不要高等中學以下因為我自己的版本是有把高等中學高中放進去原因是因為"},{"start":7766.421,"end":7780.317,"text":"還是會有一些高中有提供營養午餐而且有時候家長也會對營養午餐有沒有營養產生一些意見所以我覺得如果把高中納入的話事實上可以有比較多選擇性我覺得選擇性就是他願意提供"},{"start":7781.138,"end":7805.744,"text":"然後這個就還是有相關的規範那我自己的在板橋也是有比如說海山它就是高中國中就是一起的所以我覺得高中還是有必要但是題目就是法案的名稱要不要把高中納進去我個人是不堅持但是我覺得高中是要有相關的營養午餐的規範以上 謝謝好 請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":7808.464,"end":7827.902,"text":"好 因為今天討論這一個學校的這一個不管是用營養午餐或公餐那因為後面有增加了一個飲食教育那基本上飲跟食這兩個字是一樣意思啦所以既然在討論飲食教育為什麼不要把它就叫做"},{"start":7828.642,"end":7847.117,"text":"食農教育因為食農教育它有的意義是包括說如何讓學生去認識在地食材甚至說這一個類似說什麼產季的時候什麼產季是適合吃什麼東西這個才有"},{"start":7847.777,"end":7874.826,"text":"富含教育的意味像現在鱸魚大出如果學校營養午餐可以去教導說大概台灣的鱸魚就是在這個時候出所以營養午餐以這樣來落實當然我沒有堅持說要把食農這兩個字把它放在我們這個草案的名稱不然就是至少在第一條我是覺得要把食農這兩個字放進去因為食農教育法已經三讀通過"},{"start":7875.706,"end":7904.742,"text":"那如果食農教育最大的落實就是在學校的營養午餐所以我還是覺得說在於這個法案的名稱我是不堅持啦那至少第一條那我自己也有版本只是還沒有送進來就是應該要把食農教育推動食農教育強化飲食知識類似這樣的一個字眼然後把食農的概念應該要放在這麼重要的一部法案裡面"},{"start":7907.524,"end":7927.618,"text":"謝謝目前登記的12位委員發言完畢我要代表我們本黨做一個發言本黨的法案名稱是高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐公餐罰草案高級中等學校這部分的要求是因為我們目前的國民教育已經到高中了"},{"start":7929.099,"end":7950.371,"text":"這個保留的原因我們認為說因為還是有些偏遠地區的學校或者是在離島的學校這邊他們是高中他是需求的那這部分但是因為根據我們本版本檔的版本裡面他會有其他的說如果你自己有一個自己在高中就是有這個彈性如果你自己覺得不需要的話你就自己去自己去處理"},{"start":7950.871,"end":7977.488,"text":"這邊就是有個談心但是對於有些學校它的確是這種偏遠的啦原鄉的啦就是離島的這邊部分我覺得還是需要有這樣子的高中的這樣的一個一個大陸道營養午餐的部分那另外我們本版呢還包括是幼兒園那這個理由當然我們還是先把本黨的意見提出來就是說因為六歲前的飲食教育營養會影響到一輩子的這個學生的他的"},{"start":7979.189,"end":8006.965,"text":"營養了解等等所以我們提出這部分但是我們就是看到大家的決議是怎麼樣就是我提供我們本黨的這個版本的說明好那現在各個委員都已經表達意見結束那我們請行政院這邊來做一下教育部這邊集中發言集中意見為什麼你們當初會訂出來是高級中等以下學校午餐級飲食教育條例那對那高中跟條例這部分特別要做一下說明請"},{"start":8007.845,"end":8013.634,"text":"是那個好 謝謝昭偉剛剛13位委員的發言那我先就"},{"start":8018.122,"end":8045.068,"text":"標題跟大家做個報告跟分析現在目前我們歸納出來我們的建議的標題是高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例剛剛委員就這樣一步一步來看我們先看第一段的話是要不要在法規名稱就直接寫出他適用對象當時的考慮有兩個一個是"},{"start":8046.587,"end":8056.065,"text":"現行跟它最有關的叫學校衛生法那個學校沒有講哪一個的時候會是個級學校通常會這樣"},{"start":8057.915,"end":8083.628,"text":"因此怕大家以為這一套午餐或飲食教育的相關規範會規範到深圳大學所以去定名不要讓不需要擔心或一下想要在裡面找到一些適用條文時誤會了想要第一時間看法條就能夠區隔這是第一點但是剛剛委員的發言"},{"start":8086.479,"end":8103.829,"text":"可以看到在台灣其實社會有滿大的共識聽到要講營養 午餐 學校 公餐不會想到大學啦這個我們能理解所以我們原來的用意在各位委員解釋之下能不留社會其實有高度共識不會誤會說"},{"start":8105.714,"end":8129.745,"text":"大學要去試用其實這應該還是滿有共識這是第一點所以不列高級中等以下學校或是這個以下這個以前的字眼剛才委員還滿多是支持的那我們對這一點沒有特別的堅持這是第一點再來後面那一段有兩個概念一個是學校午餐及飲食教育"},{"start":8131.024,"end":8153.77,"text":"學校午餐有人會去想成學校營養午餐等等學校共餐等等幾個字眼首先已經慢慢沒有人再去提營養與否這一類概念用比較中性的就稱學校午餐那也有人提到學校共餐這一類那我們建議用學校午餐的原因是它顯得在共餐"},{"start":8154.13,"end":8171.728,"text":"会显得稍微有技术面而已的状况学校午餐显得他关怀的面向或许可以更广不只共餐可能他连结饮食教育也比较适当类似这样接下来饮食教育也有要不要列的进去"},{"start":8172.529,"end":8187.815,"text":"在國內如果學校的午餐變成比較技術面學校為了孩子的午餐餐食一個技術面的提供這樣的一個協助而已的話其實裡面慢慢的結合很多學校已經讓其中"},{"start":8190.441,"end":8207.693,"text":"能夠讓孩子體會到從食食 飲食習慣甚至參與到食農教育能夠學校有從餐食到餐桌上都有非常多這類的概念所以有非常多人建議把這樣的一個高度要能夠融到我們的立法目的"},{"start":8208.593,"end":8233.493,"text":"裡面的立法條文甚至很前面前三條四條馬上在第三條開始就有飲食教育是把它標舉它這樣的一個目的性所以我們也把它列出來會顯示這個法的高度跟堅持對孩子的照顧它有一個目的性那飲食教育的內涵也蠻豐富的從它對於飲食尊重多元的或在地的"},{"start":8234.153,"end":8257.525,"text":"或飲食它要實時 真實對於膳食的處理甚至到整個飲食的禮儀都滿豐富的甚至飲食如果只是課堂教認知它沒有效果應該要結合學校的那個吃的那個當下是最有效的也再更能夠完成所有的認知"},{"start":8258.746,"end":8280.475,"text":"技能 情意跟素養的整套所以我們覺得這一套想法滿吻合我們教文會委員的專業我們也覺得應該好 所以從學校午餐及飲食教育這樣來我們覺得這兩個可能要列我們的法案名稱有這樣之後我們條文設計也會把他們的關聯講出來在第四條"},{"start":8282.062,"end":8295.862,"text":"最後就是條例這兩字它同樣跟法是屬於在我們國內它是屬於法的層次但我們看到很多在條例運用上可以看到比較是屬於"},{"start":8298.065,"end":8314.271,"text":"專門地區特殊性事項的時候這個不是地區性但它是比較屬於在特定比較特殊性的事項上的規範所以它滿像專法的這種專法的意旨我們"},{"start":8315.211,"end":8330.066,"text":"在立法的技術上通常我們把它會比較用條例這樣的一個行政院也給我們這樣的指導那這樣子在條例上有我們有當時設計的意思也跟委員回報那委員覺得說可不可以"},{"start":8330.806,"end":8357.276,"text":"讓它有一個更廣泛的概念用法就好其實如果講條例它最大可能要去講區隔的是跟衛生法那個廣佈性的在那邊會有一個區隔之外第二它本身有講到特定的事項還有飲食教育目的的達成有那個比較國家對特定的事項很關心的那樣的一個設計以上"},{"start":8360.326,"end":8380.908,"text":"高級中等以下六字遵照委員整體的建議我們也覺得不堅持可以不用因為大學不會被聯想到會要適用這一套學校午餐及飲食教育建議可以採用至於葉委員所提的這個概念因為跟衛福部的營養及健康飲食促進法會過於"},{"start":8381.909,"end":8402.803,"text":"相近是不是容許按照大部分委員所提的那也感謝葉委員至於有委員提到食農教育我們也建起因為已經有食農教育的那個專法是不是這一點我們要達成它的目標的時候我們可以在我們的目的那邊提就好在我們本法教文會的本法這邊我們就不特別提以上 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8405.781,"end":8413.192,"text":"好 謝謝彭署長的說明就已經把主要的關鍵這個法的意涵它代表什麼意義說明"},{"start":8415.908,"end":8443.103,"text":"高級中等以下學校這個高級中等學校這邊是委員會建議是可以不用不用 但是針對像說如果那必須要再撒有一個條文針對要適用的方向因為如果沒有各級學校的話請問會出現到連大學也包進去那這怎麼辦委員我們的第一條整理的時候就會出現了待會第一條的時候要不要適用高中我待會再做一個報告OK OK 好那這樣子是不是改成說"},{"start":8444.324,"end":8471.797,"text":"學校午餐及飲食教育條例這樣子刪除前面幾個字這樣子好 可以嗎沒有異議喔 好OK 那就修正動議那我們先做一下修正那就修正通過本法案的條文是學校午餐及飲食教育條例"},{"start":8475.253,"end":8488.971,"text":"好 沒問題吧是 謝謝委員好 現在我們再進行到一個需不需要下一個我們要處理的是要不要張的要不要張明這個部分張明我跟委員很快做個報告好 謝謝"},{"start":8490.273,"end":8505.869,"text":"那以本委員會我查閱教師法 高中法國民教育法 幼照法 特教法無法有列章名它大概都是60個條文那最近去年委員會通過了學輔法24個條文"},{"start":8507.751,"end":8530.439,"text":"今天这个就是24个条文没章名我建议本委员会在历来在有关普通法阶段法的时候因为涉及到60个条文的时候列章名比较能够抓到该章内涵的条文意旨所以那个时候提24条这样的条文有去年的学复法可参照是否免定章名以上补充"},{"start":8531.087,"end":8557.059,"text":"好 那目前呢我們從教文委員會裡面整理出來是有10個委員包括民眾黨的版本是有章名的那這邊是不是就大家對於彭署長的意見是不是因為我們只有23條24條23 24條這部分沒有可能沒有必要這樣子做各自章名的這樣做序分出來這是大家意見怎麼樣有沒有異議"},{"start":8558.38,"end":8583.543,"text":"沒有異議喔沒有異議那我們就把章名的部分都拿掉囉OK好那我們各章章名就不予採納不予採納好那我們進入到第一條就沒有在休息大家現在在想要休息一下嗎還是我們就繼續一下還有可能到中午還有一個多小時的時間我們就繼續努力還是說休息十分鐘五分鐘"},{"start":8585.034,"end":8588.381,"text":"休息五分鐘 好ok 上到廁所 好 休息五分鐘好 謝謝"},{"start":8608.158,"end":8609.879,"text":"你講什麼?你講什麼?你講什麼?"},{"start":8853.84,"end":8878.926,"text":"各位委員我們現在進入到第一條的討論第一條的討論是台灣民眾黨提案第一條等35案還有包括的是教育部的建議的文字我們讓大家看第二頁的部分針對第一條的部分請大家來發言"},{"start":8888.279,"end":8899.523,"text":"好 那個是詹奕宇委員還有人要發言嗎有陳秀寶 郭育晴 李怡瑾范雲委員"},{"start":8902.441,"end":8926.374,"text":"好 OK 那目前登記到這為止現在請蔡議員委員先發言好 謝謝那我還是延續剛剛我的發言內容因為這個第一條的條文那我用教育部建議的文字那我在第五行我希望把它改成並推動食農教育培養學生正確飲食"},{"start":8927.335,"end":8946.057,"text":"培養學生正確健康飲食知識及習慣具備自然及永續環境之能就是因為飲跟食這兩個字基本上是重複的那我還是希望可以把食農這樣的概念放在我們現在營養午餐的一個專法"},{"start":8946.778,"end":8958.104,"text":"因為食農教育的落實就是的確是要靠營養午餐的推動所以我還是希望在第一條開宗明義裡面就把食農這兩個字放在條文裡面第二位是陳秀寶委員請發言"},{"start":8970.661,"end":8990.636,"text":"謝謝主席這條因為剛才我們有談論到了我們的法案的名稱就是我們不寫高級中等以下所以我的提案裡面跟教育部的建議條文我也建議就是說未促進高級中學以下這個就可以不用列我們就是未促進學校"},{"start":8991.617,"end":9008.346,"text":"目前我們學校辦理養午餐的業務及相關的規範對象就是國小 國中以及說我們會有完全中學的部分我的提案的狀況其實跟現況是滿就是只要把高級中等以下這個除掉"},{"start":9009.346,"end":9035.567,"text":"本席比較在意的重點就是說我們學校除了提供餐食之外應該同時兼顧飲食教育的部分也希望透過學校提供這個餐食讓我們孩子可以認識食材讓孩子可以有均衡的飲食及健康飲食的這個概念台灣其實有很豐富的文化包括在飲食的部分針對不同的飲食文化本席也希望說讓孩子們能夠更認識而且可以尊重"},{"start":9036.047,"end":9054.075,"text":"所以我有在上面增列就是說認識與尊重多元飲食文化這個部分的文字就是包含培養學生健康飲食觀念認識與尊重多元飲食文化我也希望教育部可以評估是不是可以把這樣的文字加入以上 謝謝"},{"start":9056.881,"end":9085.921,"text":"請郭玉琴委員發言這一條我看那個部裡面把第一條的健康然後午餐的制度跟縮小成相差距還有飲食教育跟永續環境智能已經都全部放入了我自己的版本也是強調健康飲食跟教育要重要性這個理念其實是一致的所以這個部分其實我們我的部分應該也算是支持這個部板裡頭的一些建議以上"},{"start":9089.367,"end":9092.454,"text":"零一集委員發言下一個是范雲委員請準備"},{"start":9102.473,"end":9121.278,"text":"謝主席這條本席提出的版本就是框定專法適用在高中以下學校這個看起來大家也很有共識當然希望說從小就建立良好的飲食習慣跟食農的知識然後認識在地的飲食文化"},{"start":9123.118,"end":9141.331,"text":"有些版本我有寫到幼兒園本席是認為說把幼兒園框進來可能範圍就太大了也讓幼兒園難以保持彈性幼兒園有幼照法去做一些規範所以我建議還是我們就規範國民教育階段即可"},{"start":9144.133,"end":9157.098,"text":"還有本席認為說讓國民從小認識在地飲食文化這個東西很重要所以看要不要融進就把這幾個字眼融進去這個條文裡面大家可以討論看看"},{"start":9158.198,"end":9175.268,"text":"那我在這裡要提一下就是說包括教育部的建議條文也都有這個問題就縱觀我們今天所有提案的版本都有很多的版本都有法律的調次跟相次在裡面"},{"start":9176.449,"end":9205.151,"text":"像舉例而言我們看民眾黨的版本它的第四條就有提到裡面就有提到說特殊教育法第25條就是說我們的法裡面有規範到哪個法其他的哪個法的哪個條次裡面那如果那個法的條次變了呢我們是不是還要再修回來這個法所以我認為說這種過度細節的文字我們就放在立法說明就好讓大家了解我們的立法脈絡那不要寫進去法律文字"},{"start":9205.892,"end":9209.407,"text":"徒增未來修法調適變動有一些很大的困擾以上"},{"start":9213.564,"end":9241.915,"text":"委員發言下一位陳北玉委員請準備好我比較了一下我的版本跟教育部版本的差異因為教育部用的就是我們大家都有講到飲食教育教育部用的是培養學生正確健康飲食習慣具備自然及永續環境之能我的部分是用的是以達到學生健全身心發展"},{"start":9242.535,"end":9262.214,"text":"及平衡國民飲食之目標我是覺得好像說教學生要有正確健康飲食習慣這個會不會好像說人家都不正確因為我的部分還有滿多委員的文字是達到學生健全身心發展因為這個都一直是我們教育的目標那平衡國民飲食之"},{"start":9263.354,"end":9288.481,"text":"平衡國民飲食也有一個整體的不管是剩食或者是剛剛蔡議員講的食農教育這個部分比較有一個整體的國家目標所以不知道教育部為什麼要特別寫自然及永續環境之能是指說剩食就是永續環境嗎還是這個裡面有帶有食農教育的意涵月食"},{"start":9289.601,"end":9307.192,"text":"農業也是我們很重要的永續環境的一部分要請問教育部這樣以上不一樣也許可以教育部可以解釋一下因為我覺得剛剛蔡育委員講那個食農教育的概念如果能放進去的話也是滿好的好 請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":9311.496,"end":9340.436,"text":"她是在校前面那就請萬美林委員發言好 謝謝主席 謝謝培語在這個第一條的部分我想大家應該都有共識就是為促進高級中學以下學校這個部分當然應該要拿掉這個因應我們剛才名稱的部分我覺得把它拿掉最清楚簡單就是我的版本上面是為提升國民中小學學校午餐我覺得它是第一個很清楚另外我看到就是布的這個草案建議的文字上面寫"},{"start":9341.636,"end":9356.824,"text":"要完備就是在這一條就寫完備學校午餐制度我們這整部法不就是在完備學校午餐的制度特別在第一條有沒有必要再把它加進去再來還有我們要推動飲食教育"},{"start":9357.805,"end":9371.737,"text":"這也可以但是我覺得應該可以有更細緻的說法然後培養學生正確的健康飲食的習慣具備自然跟永續環境的知能我覺得布裡面的第一條"},{"start":9372.458,"end":9391.101,"text":"那寫得有一點範圍太大了又想把全部包含進去但是事實上我們這些文字又沒有辦法去具體的去規範什麼所以我有幾個建議第一個建議就是說我們把它改成為提升國民中小學學校午餐那這個部分很清楚我們規範的對象的公餐品質"},{"start":9392.102,"end":9414.603,"text":"然後促進學生健康就促進學生營養跟身心健康培養學生的健康飲食的觀念我覺得不用強調正確這件事情因為正不正確這件事情可能要規範起來又要很細了你才有辦法規範到哪一類是正確哪一類是不正確的所以我想我們是不是把它提成學生健康飲食觀念"},{"start":9415.623,"end":9439.809,"text":"那我這邊是有加了就是珍惜食物之生活教育那這個部分如果大家有意見覺得不需要這個我不會堅持所以訂定國民健康基礎制定文法但是呢有一點因為也有委員提到說是不是要把這個食農教育放進去但我覺得食農教育是非常的重要但是以我的理解食農教育有食農教育條例其實在農業部就已經有了那我們是不是"},{"start":9440.209,"end":9463.895,"text":"应该在教育部的规范之内还是针对我们在教育现场的部分来做可以比较大范围地把它框进来那大家另外会不会有相关的规定就是挂万漏一所以呢本法未规定者适用其他相关法律之规定可能也包含像刚才这样子的举例食农教育条例是不是就在那个地方我们就可以就适用那个条例了所以以上这个是我的建议"},{"start":9467.068,"end":9492.635,"text":"請陳培宇委員發言下一位張雅玲委員請準備好 謝謝主席我自己的條文跟對照教育部今天提出的建議文字我認為有一個比較大的差異是基本法還是不是基本法的定位因為各自的寫法跟後續有相關爭議的時候其實適用範圍是不一樣的所以這個部分待會要拜託教育部的國家署這邊的法制幫我們說明一下"},{"start":9493.195,"end":9519.731,"text":"那另外剛剛聽完怡金委員的發言我就想到另外一個很重要的事情謝謝怡金委員我們現在框定學校的範圍未來會不會含特教學校矯正學校因為上一次在修學輔法的時候其實在相關框定學校內容也花了一些力氣討論所以我其實是謝謝怡金委員剛剛的發言我想到特教學校 矯正學校署長你記得嗎那時候我們在講學輔法的時候也會有類似的問題好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":9523.8,"end":9546.947,"text":"張雅琳委員發言好 謝謝那我基本上就是說我想我們這一次要立法最重要就是要確保我們不分縣市都可以得到一樣的品質而且還有食安的部分但是我看現在我們在這個立法目的上面並沒有把公餐品質放進去那我自己的版本是有"},{"start":9547.387,"end":9575.778,"text":"所以我也希望就是說教育部可以參採這個建議那再來第二個部分我也一樣有同樣的疑惑就是具備自然及永續環境之能到底是什麼意思可能待會也可以再解釋清楚一點不然這看起來不太好像怎麼樣操作都可以的感覺那第三個部分就是說我們我也是有一條是在寫說有關學校午餐之"},{"start":9577.637,"end":9606.036,"text":"事項優先適用本法之規定本法未規定者適用其他相關法律之規定提供一個彈性所以這部分也希望教育部來納入那第四個呢其實是我的疑問啦我想問一下就是因為我很關心實驗教育那實驗教育學校是否也是適用這個法律的規範呢謝謝好 目前"},{"start":9607.877,"end":9622.786,"text":"好 那范宇委員就再請那個呼應剛剛陳培宇委員的疑問喔那我要講一下就是我的第一條跟第四條因為被放在一起對照第一條那我的部分也有寫到就是除了"},{"start":9623.246,"end":9649.225,"text":"一般學校之外實驗教育還有特教法的特殊教育學校還有原住民教育法的原住民族學校還有其他由主管機關認定適用之學校譬如說矯正學校那這部分因為我的部分被對照第四條學校的類型那是放在對照教育部的第一條所以我一起提出來那希望大家可以接受 謝謝好 請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":9651.598,"end":9667.5,"text":"好 那剛剛大家都對於這一個有滿多自己的想法其實我在旁邊聽了很多我覺得大家所講的都滿利益良善的那都希望把它一起納入我覺得這個樂觀其成但是我也擔心就是說會不會有"},{"start":9668.161,"end":9685.476,"text":"沒有被納入到的但我們覺得它很重要的所以有許多的委員有提出在第一條的最後面有提到本法未規定者適用其他相關法律的規定我想這個部分也供參考我想都希望能夠將這個第一條用得更完善以上"},{"start":9687.196,"end":9706.134,"text":"好 登記發言的委員已經發言完畢那我就代表民眾黨提出本黨的版本的一個意見就是詢問一下教育部因為目前的有蠻多的委員是針對說高級中等學校以下就包括高級中等學校"},{"start":9706.795,"end":9724.302,"text":"那因為想要問的是實現式的學校有事情的公參法那想要請問一下如果把這個高級中等學校把它拿掉的話那這個實現式當中目前有包括像澎湖 金門 馬祖這部分有沒有高中已經是在這個裡面的如果"},{"start":9725.903,"end":9752.501,"text":"這個部分那如果沒有的話把它拿掉他們像剛才三個離島的高中他們是不是就可能不會受到這樣子的一個像公參法的或是避孕然後第二個部分呢第二個部分呢再包括的是有關於本黨也提到說公參品質這部分當然是說完備制度可是我覺得公參品質的這一部分的一個提升效果也是應該可能放進來那第三個"},{"start":9753.642,"end":9770.523,"text":"剛才就針對說學校的適用對象這邊本黨是有把相關的有提出蠻多條當然是有涉及到某些法的這個條文的部分可能需要拿掉但是對學校類型的型態這種實驗教育 特殊教育原住民等等的這部分是不是也請"},{"start":9771.184,"end":9790.72,"text":"教育部等下回應的時候針對它是不是我們如果只說一個學校就是國民中小學這部分是不是也包括這類型或是有些排除的適用範圍也把它做一下說明那還有就是有關於有些班方可能沒有辦法完全適用的就是透過在現在的這個法的修訂就是現在增訂這部分"},{"start":9791.32,"end":9815.005,"text":"那是不是應該針對就有優先適用本法的規定那由在公餐跟飲食的教育的部分如果有相關問題但是沒有被我們這個法所喊掛的話就是優先適用本法其他的就是要適用本法其他就適用到相關法律規定這個部分教育部的意見是怎麼樣是不是有能夠有一個完整的處理好那就吳麗華委員吳麗華委員請發言"},{"start":9831.648,"end":9849.653,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝大家那個第一條的部分因為那個立法的議職教育部的這個第一條他把目標是放在完備共產制度飲食教育永續環境之能"},{"start":9850.853,"end":9873.431,"text":"但是相對來講比較概括所以本席的版本之所以寫是因為我認為它是一部全國性的上位法立法目的如果越清楚未來跨部會的協作才能夠更順利所以我比較大的差異是我的版本有寫到說營養與身心健康"},{"start":9875.073,"end":9893.546,"text":"因為這是共產制度比較要明確承擔的核心使命另外就是國產食材的使用我特別提到就是其實我們自己在地擁有很多豐富的一些傳統作物但是這些食材就是最難進入學校"},{"start":9894.266,"end":9913.679,"text":"所以如果我們談的這些什麼永續 地產地銷 文化味覺 碳足跡那我們是很希望說立法的目的就要明白的指出國產食材的一個重要性那這個本條例的優先適用我覺得這也是在立法技術上非常重要的一點"},{"start":9914.299,"end":9936.295,"text":"因為我們可能學校在共餐的時候會受到食安法 國教法地方自治條例 預算法公共工程採購規範各地方政府的一個共餐辦法等等會受到很多影響如果我們沒有寫說優先適用的時候未來推動這個新的制度教育部跟地方"},{"start":9937.176,"end":9949.125,"text":"是恐怕會一直遇到法條互相抵觸的問題所以我在第一條的部分就是特別做這樣的一個條例文字 謝謝好 大家的你要第二次發言嗎"},{"start":9955.379,"end":9976.877,"text":"因為剛剛主席才是並沒有說把食農這個字放上去因為我們看一下現在有食農教育法食農教育法它對食農教育的定義是什麼就是說培育國人了解農業生產 農產加工友善環境 食物選擇 餐飲備制"},{"start":9980.16,"end":9999.601,"text":"知能及實踐 盛食處理增進飲食環境及農業連結促使國民注重自身健康與農漁村環境之永續所以這都是在我們在食農教育法已經匡列食農教育這四個字所附有的意涵"},{"start":10000.242,"end":10025.211,"text":"所以我還是覺得說我們在這樣的一個學校營養午餐的時候我們把推動飲食教育這四個字把它用食農教育來更替的話它就是把我剛剛講的剩食的處理把永續的概念把在地食材的概念基本上在食農教育這四個字都可以有充分的涵蓋甚至像我講的像現在台灣的鱸魚大廚鱸魚大廚"},{"start":10029.793,"end":10050.014,"text":"如果我們這個時候學校會採用鱸魚的話事實上學生會知道說原來每年冬季的時候就是台灣盛產鱸魚的時候所以我覺得這樣的一個概念把食農飲食教育改成食農教育會具有更好的意義不然的話也可以說因為我剛剛有看到林月琴的委員版本"},{"start":10050.595,"end":10074.983,"text":"他是说推动饮食及食农教育所以这样饮食跟食农两个字都有涵盖在内的因为我刚看到林月琼的版本也有这样写所以我还是觉得说教育部可以再思考一下食农教育这四个字所带有这么丰富的意涵应该要放在开宗明义的第一条里面谢谢好 补充发言可以吗 主席"},{"start":10076.489,"end":10102.664,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要echo一下剛剛易宇委員說的因為當時我們對於營養午餐專法的倡議其實來自於農業部最早訂定的那個食農教育三法我們對於相關業務的推進然後在學校裡面因為營養午餐有相關菜色的設計所以把食農教育的實踐放進營養午餐法我覺得如果教育部在法制法規文之上的書寫沒有困難那本來業務你們已經在做了嘛"},{"start":10103.084,"end":10114.133,"text":"其實有機會放進去應該也非常好而且我覺得對於台灣國產食材青農也好或者是過往我們所認識的這些從事農業的前輩都是非常重要的鼓舞獎 謝謝"},{"start":10115.987,"end":10141.036,"text":"好 就第一條的各位委員的發言已經結束請教育部這邊針對法條當中的高級中學的部分還有在裡面的內容特別是在有公三品質完備校學園 午餐制度 平衡城鄉等等還有一個就是飲食跟食農中間的一個差異性"},{"start":10142.096,"end":10153.693,"text":"好 那是不是有適合交進去還有包括是不是有其他的適用的沒有包含在境內怎麼這樣去對應相關性就請回答"},{"start":10154.52,"end":10181.907,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯目前各位委員所看到的文字有幾個建議希望我們能夠做思考甚至調整我第一點回應要不要把適用對象直接拿掉再另起一條談它的適用對象並且去說明含不含什麼含不含特價 含不含什麼在那邊或許可能會更清楚否則原來我們的設計是因為它很清晰"},{"start":10183.027,"end":10206.155,"text":"各位可以看要看變成要去看立法說明去了所以這樣會反而在條文上沒有揭露的話會一直會疑慮那個有沒有含 那個有沒有含所以第一條如果只單純寫目的不寫適用對象我們覺得可以我們會另寫一條寫適用對象好 那針對適用對象我再說明"},{"start":10207.659,"end":10236.287,"text":"那就有兩個層次第一個要不要含高中幼兒園看起來大家有共識暫時因為它有母法我們就不要兩個法進合我們就來談高中要不要含的問題因為高中要含等一下我們寫第四條或第幾條寫適用對象的時候它就會有它的應該要寫的載明的概念所以在這邊先跟各位報告也釐清我們初步認為"},{"start":10238.188,"end":10254.64,"text":"如果沒有寫的話在本法裡面有目前全台灣就有42個學校是使用公辦公營的高中那他的營養師他學校的採購"},{"start":10256.101,"end":10280.38,"text":"等等等等他应该要受本法的照顾或规范那如果没有写那刚才显得意见不管完中或我刚才讲有42个公立高中就至少是在这样使用这个那然而大家也知道高中生的选择非常的多元而且自主因此我们后面的条文会去保留他的选择的弹性"},{"start":10281.221,"end":10306.039,"text":"所以兼顧他不採用公辦公營公辦民營或是統參的彈性但是又有使用者要給他照顧所以適用對象會變成像今天大家很多的發言是照顧中央地方的彈性那我也想兼顧高中他也有他形態上的彈性以及要有用的人要受到照顧"},{"start":10307.08,"end":10317.495,"text":"所以這個彈性也適用階段考慮因此我們建議可以留那我們會設計保留它的彈性的部分等會再"},{"start":10320.487,"end":10336.631,"text":"四條 再抱歉等一下各位委員會看到在第七條我們就會去設計去讓高中的共餐除了什麼公辦公營公辦民營之外他自己學校可以去決定以其他的方式來共營"},{"start":10337.091,"end":10354.847,"text":"所以供應問題就不用替他們擔心說好像都會綁到要用統餐但是剛才講到了不管學校現行有兩萬多人在吃這種學校共餐的方式滿多是完全中學那可能就要照顧他包含後面很多條文像採購 專戶那個不能不照顧"},{"start":10357.189,"end":10372.604,"text":"以上這是第一點第二點我建議今天各位委員提的非常多的希望在立法目的上能夠彰顯國家立法者他的立法高度跟來照顧學生帶來的方向是不是"},{"start":10373.124,"end":10399.856,"text":"今天可能也談不完24條容許我們就今天所有委員的發言我們回去做很好的整理下次來的時候我們提一個比較好的版本提之前我們會先給三個黨團的召集人或是委員先也看一下免得提上來又太多的又要再討論再繞部位玩所以我非常的感佩委員所提的各項觀點我們來做一個好的整理之後"},{"start":10400.276,"end":10409.391,"text":"下次拿回來拿回來之前會先請議三個黨團的召集委員至於裡面有幾個我也稍微釐清一下"},{"start":10410.765,"end":10438.917,"text":"这一套午餐的制度我们觉得它很完备事实上我觉得很完备只是它散建在一下学校卫生法一下某个办法一下一个要点一下注意事项一下一个行政院或是我们的一个补助措施五种层次从法到补助措施有五种层次在照顾我们希望用专法完备所有的事所以完备的意思就是各位想到的那个专法的意思"},{"start":10439.517,"end":10466.318,"text":"是这样的所以不写的话人家以为好像又只是我刚才讲的五个措施的又在外加一件事情而已不是这个就当完备化了不过文字我们还在整理另外又有提到最后一句话具备自然跟永续环境智能这是最近听到很多委员的建议其实它很像SDGs一个新的观念你如果直接写SDGs快那是"},{"start":10467.335,"end":10489.22,"text":"没有这么像我们国情的讲法但是各位刚才讲的在地的减少碳足迹的 食农 饮食这样这些我们再来做个整理最后提到食农教育要不要怎么样处理它的定位现在食农教育专法的第七条就有提到我们的角色"},{"start":10490.507,"end":10505.956,"text":"已经讲了我们该做什么做什么包含时通教育的规划推动甚至监督了写得非常的清楚那要不要有一个连结像刚才陈伯余委员蔡余委员所提各个人也有关心到的概念"},{"start":10506.596,"end":10534.014,"text":"要彰显这个价值的时候要不要呈现字眼那我们在整理的时候我们会来努力但是要单纯的用食农教育取代饮食教育我跟大家报告会有困难现行学生学习在教育界内12年课纲中饮食教育是课纲中的一个重要的学习标的各个12年都有他学习的内涵他也蛮丰富的"},{"start":10534.474,"end":10560.974,"text":"因此它得要呈現的也感佩我們教文的委員有看到這個教育上的應該達到的目的但是食農又那麼重要怎麼讓整合這容許我剛才提到那個這第二點第三點文字上我們建議像委員講的本法未規定的那個可能還是要定所以會有第二項現在只有一項會有第二項為什麼因為剛才跟委員報告了原來我們是認定它是特別法"},{"start":10562.503,"end":10591.191,"text":"特别法之下它跟其他并存的不管要采购时的采购法或是什么什么它也是其实就不会去提谁优先我们这个也是这种优先特别嘛可是它毕竟有某种的普通性因此不要漏掉反而比较好的话我们觉得委员刚才讲的第二项本法未规定的什么也要用我们觉得这样更周延好不好那我们会照委员的意思最后适用对象中到底我们所指学校是谁"},{"start":10592.851,"end":10613.361,"text":"學校階段我就不講了階段內相當的有誰特殊教育要算這28個特教學校要算再來實驗教育這個學校型態因為它是學校了所以它公餐的情況可以跟我們學校相當不能夠不讓他享受本法的照顧但是"},{"start":10614.78,"end":10634.097,"text":"實驗三法中的非學校型態從個人 團體到機構它有它的彈性我們不要用這個法去綁住它所以非學校型態的那一部分我們不要去綁住它會比較留有它原來的彈性再來特殊型學校像軍警矯正學校"},{"start":10635.298,"end":10662.118,"text":"因為他們的公餐的不管是補助相關的適用的譬如說光沙打菜那些的用餐行為那些不太一樣是不是容許由這個各部會剛才也跟我講說他們的部分是不是就寫在立法說明他們就不用特別要適用他們有他們的照顧的方式我們是不是就也見請委員同意他們會照顧得很好由他們那個專法他們的專法"},{"start":10663.519,"end":10689.639,"text":"他們有在處理也有很好的補助標準是不是由他們來處理所以以上要不要在立法目的就講階段不要我們要另起一條來好好講對象包含我剛才講的學校是誰做一個定義文字容我做一個整理在下一次會議前我們會完成剛才請議各黨團的委員來做最後再來提出一次這樣好不好好 同意"},{"start":10691.73,"end":10710.827,"text":"那范議員還有一些要發言的部分我很支持也感謝署長願意回去整合把大家的意見放在一起那我還想再幫忙講一下那個食農教育因為我想不需要用食農教育取代飲食教育但是能不能就是飲食及食農教育"},{"start":10711.868,"end":10734.327,"text":"因為剛剛雖然我的版本沒有那幾個字可是剛剛蔡宇宇講的我有被他說服我覺得像日本會強調核食教育我們如果不把食農放進去會以為只是健康或者是剩食其實我們本土的農業非常的重要我們可以把食農教育加進去不用取代以上補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":10735.848,"end":10764.685,"text":"那現在這一部分第一條部分我們現在有個方向就是教育部的是針對第一條裡面的比較詳細的內容然後下一次版本會提出來那當然包括的是會增加一個第二項就是其他適用的優先性本把優先適用的這個項要把它放進去那其他的部分還有就是對象的部分會放到"},{"start":10765.345,"end":10781.259,"text":"以現在不版的部分就是可能再出新增一條就對了可能在第七條的部分去做吧好 沒關係就是還會新增一條針對對象在上下那如果這樣的情況之下因為我們大家有這個原則就把這一條做保留"},{"start":10782.373,"end":10803.201,"text":"好不好支持好 支持喔 有沒有意義 沒有那還有剛剛就提到那個本法未規定者對 有剛剛有說就是變第二項這個確定這是確定的喔對對對 確定的 剛剛確定的對 好那就 這樣我們就依照剛剛這些立法的剛才我們大家意見的呃 呈現跟"},{"start":10805.062,"end":10827.456,"text":"部署這邊的一個回應我們就把記錄下來就往這邊放進去進行好就做保留這條第一條做保留那我們現在進入到第二條的部分第二條討論台灣民眾黨團提案第二條等35案請大家看第五頁那就請各位委員"},{"start":10829.434,"end":10833.895,"text":"提 表示意見 要發言的舉手我們來做登記"},{"start":10846.735,"end":10864.007,"text":"主管機關的部分了 主管機關范雲委員第一個張雅玲委員第二位吟怡錦委員第三位我建議這個第二條是不是先請教育部說明一下他們為什麼把這幾個是這樣子訂好嗎好 那是張雅玲 下一位"},{"start":10872.287,"end":10886.577,"text":"您一級委員我想我的版本上面最大的差異是我沒有把所有的這個我有增加一個就是說中央主管機關因會商各該中央目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":10888.198,"end":10911.498,"text":"然後呢 必要時由行政院來統籌協調所以我是希望加上這個設計可以讓我們有更好的一個跨部會的溝通啦那這部分也是請提供這個教育部來參考 謝謝好 請01級委員發言好 謝謝主席這條本席的版本喔 是"},{"start":10913.502,"end":10942.151,"text":"相關事項涉及其他機關事業事務由主管機關會同各相關機關延伸辦理我看教育部的建議文字有把跟學校營養午餐高度相關的機關特別寫出來這部分我本席尊重教育部的看法我是支持像第四款的文字這樣寫就讓其他各目的事業主管機關來辦理就好以上"},{"start":10944.509,"end":10963.857,"text":"請郭育琴委員發言這第二條不把清楚地劃分教育 衛福 農業 環境等等這些目的的事業主管機關我想這個午餐其實牽涉的範圍也是很大包含營養食安食材的源頭所以這個部分"},{"start":10965.636,"end":10986.303,"text":"應該是說布板的部分寫得非常的具體分工很具體那我的版本是雖然是採比較簡單的一個簡化的一個繪銅辦理但是我想這個第三項第四款也有保有彈性那我認為應該有助於未來的一個執行那這個部分我滿認同這個布板的部分好 以上"},{"start":10987.063,"end":11002.164,"text":"好 陳秀寶委員請發言謝主席 在這條的部分我這邊我自己的版本也是寫得比較簡明但是我看教育部這邊真的是很用心他把這相關的單位相關的機關的事則都有列出來"},{"start":11002.805,"end":11029.103,"text":"那剛才其實范委員有提到說也請教育部可以說明一下你們把這些這樣子列出來的這個主要去做分崗的部分我希望教育部雖然是很完整但是我們也想要知道說當初你們這樣子整個的過程你們大家說明一下給委員們知道謝謝好 登記委員已經發言完畢那我代表民眾黨來說本黨的版本的意見"},{"start":11030.714,"end":11051.862,"text":"本部長這邊也是提到了說主管機關中央交易部地方直轄縣市等等包括其他的相關部會就由其他的相關部來去處理是一個跨約性的一個條文我們看到的是交易部這邊的版本它是有提到的是主管機關的就是等於是交易部這邊特別還把或是說相關的"},{"start":11052.822,"end":11076.053,"text":"中央跟地方他特別講說他主掌的是午餐的跟飲食教育的規劃跟推動等等那甚至還把其他列出來我們當然也是希望說這部分是更詳細因為如果沒有這麼詳細我想可能教育部也有他的用意因為不然到時候可能造成這個混淆或是推的沒有人做那是不是就請現在教育部在我們委員都發表意見之後請回覆說行政部門的一個立場"},{"start":11079.038,"end":11101.56,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉剛剛六位委員所提意見我分兩項說明第一項我們的立法整個精神跟文字設計第二個有具體的問題我做點回應首先我們的這一條是分讓大家能夠在自己的責任上在國家的高度上知道自己所應該努力跟負責的執掌所以第一"},{"start":11102.481,"end":11127.314,"text":"第二項兩項去處理出最主要的主管單位機關並且說你就是要主責這一些在本法的規劃推動跟監督但同時各位委員也知道或是在相關的目的事業上有些不屬教文會或不屬教育部的部分例如"},{"start":11128.43,"end":11155.909,"text":"农业部在食材源头的管理管那个农场上有一些不管是器作也好或是有没有撒农药这一类食品抱歉食材原来那个原生食它的管理那不属教育能够去主责的因此那种目的事业会有相关的单位又如厨余需要处理时各位知道学校虽然产生"},{"start":11157.33,"end":11182.207,"text":"没有要用的厨余可是家户也有因此在我们台湾的社会这种厨余有一个专责的管理单位大家也知道是环境部因此类似这样有一些事情虽然自午餐会延伸或前端会想要知道有谁去关心那一个的目的事业不在我们教育的机关内因此也要把那个自第三项开始提出来"},{"start":11183.047,"end":11205.428,"text":"那我們最抓出來最直接有關的是用行政院食安五環的長期大家合作的網絡對象就是有衛福部農業部跟環境部當然我每次參加行政院這個會的時候會有特定的議題會邀其他有關部因此我們留了一個第四點以上就有關的"},{"start":11206.309,"end":11221.995,"text":"部會最綿密的這四個部會其中一個教育部是自己要主責的另外三個目的事業也一起並同的設計讓大家民分工同時也知道我們沒有漏掉他們免得如果只有寫我們以為漏掉"},{"start":11222.715,"end":11242.325,"text":"寫太多例如有一些委員很關心科技的事情要不要找科技部不滿委員說科技的事情我們會諮詢他但是那個時燈平台是我們會自己努力把它處理好所以我們就不列它會把它放到4也謝謝委員支持最後我們來回應有幾點委員說像雅玲委員說要不要提到"},{"start":11243.746,"end":11270.384,"text":"大家會傷然後行政院那部分要不要提到統籌這個跟雅琳委員報告目前我們第二條這種體力是行政院所轄各部會在想主責單位跟分工時大概體力是這樣行政院自然會在有一些需要統籌處理的時候一般我們比較沒有特別提那個文字是體力上它自然行政院還是行政上最高要總期程負責"},{"start":11271.044,"end":11277.302,"text":"不会没有那个角色所以一般我们不会特别写也是会有这个角色如实安办等等"},{"start":11278.871,"end":11302.636,"text":"那再來就是其他委員也支持說高度相關列出來就好其他的就列其他感謝委員另外整體而言這一條因為它帶有彈性那個其他的部分以目前我們運作像譬如說舉個例子當我們需要經費的時候像剛剛部長有提到當時需要張Q再加碼"},{"start":11303.666,"end":11329.852,"text":"那也是主席總署給我們支持所以這個其他會有類似財務部門的也都會在行政院協調下來支持午餐目的的達成以上 謝謝好 謝謝彭署長的說明那在場委員這邊第二條部分是不是就以布板的文字來通過有沒有異議支持"},{"start":11331.482,"end":11345.276,"text":"支持 這樣子 國庭委員可以喔就是建議文字 這個說的依照教育部的建議文字依照教育部文字來通過修正通過 修正通過"},{"start":11347.096,"end":11373.619,"text":"二主席 我這邊想要建議一下因為現在也差不多是中午了那我們現在處理的部分我們剛剛處理的法案名稱立法目的到現在是主管機關這個條文是主管機關但是接下來我們要討論的部分就是學校飲食的推動以及推動的目標還有就是主管機關協助學校來推動這些飲食教育的部分就是專關於業務執行方面跟推動的部分"},{"start":11374.139,"end":11397.821,"text":"因為那這些章節你說只討論一點點好像也沒辦法連貫我是不是建議說我們今天的進度先到這邊那接下來因為這個推動的部分執行的部分我覺得委員會有比較多的意見想要表達也希望說教育部能夠更審慎是不是我們這個進度就是在下一次的時候我們再來進行這些進度那今天就先到今天就到主管機關這個部分"},{"start":11400.748,"end":11419.68,"text":"因為已經也到中午了而且因為我們有許多委員都不在了你現在討論一點點你現在討論說譬如說你第三條討論完那你這是飲食教育的推動那第四條的部分是關於推動的目標你還是要有一個連續性那你只討論一點點的話那這樣子的進度下次是不是你還要再重重來把它連貫起來"},{"start":11421.361,"end":11447.328,"text":"好 我目前的狀況我也支持啦因為我們有一些蠻關心的委員現在也都不在了因為我現在看一下我們先把一個部分先第二條我們把它處理完因為這邊的我們教文委員的主秘說這個第二條他必須要念過才算是完成修正我們先處理完這個再繼續處理到後面的處理好不好 那現在請是誰念"},{"start":11450.025,"end":11475.228,"text":"行政人員請宣讀一下第二條現在修正通過的條文第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央維教育部在各位委員先小聲一點先不要講話因為這個程序沒有完備今天等一下下面也不能處理"},{"start":11476.349,"end":11498.911,"text":"謝謝本條例所稱主管機關在中央為教育部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府以下簡稱地方主管機關主管機關整理學校午餐與飲食教育是規劃推動及監督等事項本條例所定是像涉及中央各目的事業主管機關執掌者由中央各目的主管機關辦理其全責劃分如下衣衛生福利主管機關學校午餐營養"},{"start":11500.84,"end":11529.611,"text":"與均衡飲食廚房與校園食品衛生安全之規劃推動及監督事項二 能源主管機關學校午餐食材之源頭端偷檢驗監督及輔導供應國產農產品推動事項三 環境主管機關預防具食品安全風險疑慮之毒性以關注化學物質流入學校午餐食品鏈及處於再利用之推動事項四 其他學校午餐及飲食教育相關事項由各"},{"start":11531.027,"end":11538.448,"text":"相關中央目的主管機關依職全辦理 全讀完畢那請問在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11540.123,"end":11560.469,"text":"沒有意見 那我們現在就修正通過依教育部建議的文字第二條來修正通過好 那我們現在進行第三條的部分的討論我還是必須先念一下這個程序的部分 主席我們第三條 沒有沒有我先到這才能處理嘛 對不對"},{"start":11562.324,"end":11590.006,"text":"我在這邊念 我念完這邊那看大家處理的建議再把提案出來我們就正式處理嘛因為現在第二條那第三條沒有處理就是結束就是好 所以現在第三條就對了我念一下就是要好第三條呢是委員馬文君等17人提案有21案等21案那請看看第8頁的部分那現在請大家提出委員提出意見"},{"start":11593.383,"end":11617.631,"text":"對 謝謝主席我在這邊是建議說因為我們剛才有討論了關於法案名稱立法目的及主管機關這是一個段落那接下來從第三條第四條到第五條是學校飲食的教育推動以及推動目標還有這個對象那我想這樣子的討論應該是要做一個連貫如果今天是討論的部分那下次要再討論的時候是不是要從頭再去跑一次這個討論的這個過程"},{"start":11619.452,"end":11631.369,"text":"所以我這邊建議是說我們接下來的部分我們是下一次的會議我們再來進行那今天的進度就先到今天剛才通過了這個第二條主管機關的部分謝謝主席好"},{"start":11632.622,"end":11661.431,"text":"我們看到第三條它是學校應依本條例規定辦理學校午餐及推動飲食教育工作這部分的學校就涉及剛才第一條的保留的條文就是包括適用對象的確是現在沒辦法討論那這部分因為實際的需要我們就下一次討論我們就下一次那後面就有更多的相關實際上面的操作"},{"start":11663.312,"end":11677.994,"text":"所以這一部分我要請我們可能要做也有一個共識就是說教育部可能也許到現在是11月我們當然希望說下一個次的時候也許到12月的時候請院板的部分"},{"start":11679.504,"end":11703.842,"text":"院版的部分要加速或是說不然就是我們繼續再以這個部分也許院版到12月的部分還沒有出來我們就用現在的部分的布版的或是布版的建議文字去做修正的部分那大家也有更多的時間去對於內容呢可以就了解之後有更完整多元的一個意見出現"},{"start":11705.183,"end":11731.296,"text":"那這樣子的情況下現在有沒有意義我們做出來的這樣的一個意見就是說現在請到第三條那請下一次就是預計在12月中旬的時候那我稍微排外的時候就會來進行更多的那當然也希望說趁著部分趁著這段時間之內請布就跟三個黨的代表性的委員來做更詳細的做修訂包括我必須講我必須先講還有一件事情"},{"start":11732.316,"end":11751.487,"text":"我們的委員會裡面的秘書人員提出來說我們呢 請您在做對應的條文的時候把民眾黨的12條 13條條文 漏下了 漏了這部分絕對是要做修訂所以這部分一定要把它放進來就對了要放在哪裡 做對照而已"},{"start":11759.813,"end":11776.192,"text":"我必須要說一個意見我們先肯定教育部尤其是彭署長國教署這邊非常的禁止在因應我們教育委員會的審查"},{"start":11780.134,"end":11807.342,"text":"先等一下 我自己來做決定謝謝你的一個意見好 重點是在因為今天真的大家看到這個版本的時候大家公開看到的是今天早上才放到大家的桌上來那之前的時候國民黨的委員或各黨的委員其實都在陰陰的期盼那現在他看到這個委員的這是布版的建議文字出來的時候還不是真的願版你怎麼就要好好準備"},{"start":11808.382,"end":11827.794,"text":"那可能國民民進黨的委員們因為可能有是執政長官也許還事先有知道我也不清楚但是都是我們不知道但是問題是正式的部分就是有看到才是今天才出來歡迎委員請你回座我的後面也不需要後面的其他在前面在那邊干擾我的主持會請你回座"},{"start":11829.653,"end":11851.785,"text":"那你就不要說話 因為主席在做話現在是我在發言的時間請你就 我尊重主席現在在主持會議就很快就要結束了你如果在這邊又有奇蹟蜀蜀的聲音還在跟主席講話還在跟教育部長講話其實是很奇怪的現象我們自己委員都是應該尊重在我們委員的主席因為未來的時候包括"},{"start":11852.967,"end":11881.607,"text":"包括另外召委的陳秀寶委員也是會議的議事包括法案的主持 對不對大家都應該有個我們教文委員呈現出來我們的優質的委員的素質好 所以呢這一部分就請也因為剛才的這個員工今天不版到今天早上的這個紙本才出現所以導致了我們其他的所以是在場的委員或是說我們的教文的委員其實並沒有充分的準備做回應"},{"start":11882.287,"end":11900.72,"text":"好 那他們用他們的原來的這個既定行程來做也是可以理解的我想說大家我今天看到出來是最多的情況之下還包括有其他委員和委員都出現了我覺得這是一個很感動的事情就是大家的只要有提案的委員包括他們代表他們各政黨都非常的重視"},{"start":11901.941,"end":11922.346,"text":"這一部法對於所有的全級的國民教育所屬的相關的學生的一個幫助因此他們都願意都出來即使在沒有布版的或是沒有變版的情況下都願意出席我們今天也看到展現出來教文委員會的委員非常重要的是我們並不是做保留而是很實質的就各項各項的一個內容條文上面來去做修正甚至"},{"start":11926.207,"end":11941.58,"text":"甚至署長也知道說有些部分他必須修訂等等的就是本來在朝野的政黨在修訂各個現象法律的時候就應該呈現出這樣立場那我們呈現出來一個非常好的一個模範事實上我們自己要為我們自己拍手這真的是應該做這樣的事情好"},{"start":11947.588,"end":11968.405,"text":"那現在這部分呢 我們就剛才已經做了 剛才的一些的一些共識 就是現在我們審到第三條 後續的部分請教育部 國教署 針對未來的後續相關的第三條之後的相關條文 先把這意見拿出來那這部分還有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":11972.11,"end":11980.851,"text":"我們講一下感言 因為羅廷輝委員也在這邊我們一定要講的是執政黨的委員 尤其是教育委員會我們每一次一定都會做到最後 謝謝"},{"start":11982.486,"end":12005.41,"text":"肯定那個國民黨有一位羅廷偉在這裡這樣子不要想我也是在我都在不是嗎所以民眾黨也是嘛妳是民眾黨欸妳不是國民黨沒有沒有我上次也是這樣所以不用特別講這是應盡的義務這是應盡的義務真的是這樣講所以不會去特別講我們想而且這會影響到我們內部的和諧和諧的關係就這樣子好 羅廷偉委員要鼓掌啊 堅持啊"},{"start":12011.551,"end":12035.125,"text":"至少三檔委員都在這個現在結束的議場裡面好 我要做正式的決議請大家安靜今天的審查結果免予重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提之下文字條字與標點符號為統一體力授權議事人員修改列入紀錄位於採納條文授權議事人員確認但是我們剛剛已經說到目前是審到第三條這部分"},{"start":12035.945,"end":12063.194,"text":"好那學校公參法草案呢草案以部分審查完均未及審查部分將定期繼續審查我們希望是在下個月就希望有完備的更好的法院那對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或未答覆及部分請相關機關競訴書面答覆 好不好好 那就 包括委員會今天議程處理完畢 現在三位謝謝各位 謝謝各位行政官員謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158597120ebea016ac9c4d6356a8ccaa37a42a0b20679a7fea94c3bca61c2a45653685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:14:32 - 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我先請衛福部市長 您這時候 教理說出來的資源您最多那你怎麼樣 我們應該把話講清楚你組織機關你們是不是要重新去檢討你譬如說 你到底是要回到社政體系 來衛福部統籌"},{"start":245.043,"end":266.125,"text":"或是你教育系統裡面來結緣校園的一個輔導或是說你行政院我一直在跟你們接觸就是說不然你也行行政院層級少年輔導辦公室涉及到整個成少共犯情資的一個整合裡面你搞不好都變一個轉介中心我不知道你衛護部你真正的一個想法到底是怎麼樣先請衛護部來做回答"},{"start":267.796,"end":274.66,"text":"全責的補分啦 全責的補分啦感謝委員 三個重點第一其實我們現在有這個社安網社安網其實最重要的就是我們有四大策略其中我們這個最重要的就是說 委員你剛才所說的有那個法院還有那個警政 警政署那邊還有我們法務部這邊的協調這第一重點 第二就是說我們現在目前的整個處理原則是要一組折多協力啦 就是說"},{"start":295.772,"end":302.354,"text":"你如果要在什麼街頭 街頭什麼單位 你要出來你來主責 但是其他的單位 他來做配合但是我相信 剛才委員你所說的 因為現在我們的整個主責還有那個整個其他相關單位 那個整個協調機制我們確實還有一些 應該要在進行的地方啦 最重要的當然啦"},{"start":315.319,"end":344.629,"text":"那衛務部其實你們也認為說主責機構還有涉及到整個橫向的一個聯繫的一個問題是啦 所以這個部分我們都要好好的去做一個檢討啦那另外我想請教那個徐次長就是說承哨共犯的偵查落差跟這24點鐘壓力這個問題喔其實存在的一個治安的一個問題跟涉及到整個重大偵查的一個幾個挑戰第一個就是你偵查主體的一個分工不一致"},{"start":345.109,"end":374.309,"text":"你現在成年犯 你現在檢察官指揮來偵查那你為成年犯 少年法庭法官來主導他也沒有授權指揮警察調查那你怨檢對於少年傳喚的一個態度你涉及到整個二十四小時分配的一個難題你譬如說 你當警察機關你查獲了成少共犯的案件的時候你在24小時內 你就要把少年送往少年法庭同時又要顧及到成年犯偵查的一個程序"},{"start":375.529,"end":399.797,"text":"你們像這個問題 你們到底現在要怎麼樣去解決報告委員 這24小時不是檢察官使用的時間這個是司法警察跟24小時之間的步驟那剛才中廳長這邊也解釋得非常清楚我們現在只能靠聯繫的機制我們檢察官可能有一些訊問的要點必須要追查的內容我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官"},{"start":400.217,"end":416.691,"text":"希望他們這個部分能夠幫我們來問那如果我們取得有力的資料的話我們當然會跟司法警察會馬上同步就發動一些偵查的作為我想我們現在目前的法治底下我們能做的大概就是這個地方"},{"start":417.992,"end":442.98,"text":"這涉及到整個 當然涉及到整個少年的一個保護啦但是問題就是這種成少的一個共犯裡面我看台中地院現在有發展的一個模式了嘛各地方我們有聯繫的平台也有一個機制在裡面運作說年輕的先叫我來問問問之後取得共犯的一個結果立即去輸送少年法庭然後法官快速的去責負然後檢察官繼續去偵辦這樣的一個成年的共犯那我在想喔"},{"start":447.163,"end":462.55,"text":"這個整個議題會受到整個社會的一個矚目那其實最主要的就是說年輕人到底是要被懲罰那還是在整個邵氏法裡面還要涉及到我們必須要去保護他我們也必須要提出一個很嚴肅的一個問題"},{"start":463.71,"end":469.172,"text":"我們現在看到很多犯罪裡面你去看很多律師實際上聽起來講到律師這個我就覺得可悲了你在鞏固少年口供的時候甚至去施壓是不是我們也有可能少年在選任輔導人的時候也要經過法定代理人的一個同意所以我要求我們司法院跟法務部也要去提出如何在不侵害少年的權益之下你重新去調整整個偵查的程序跟分工要不然你去看五行"},{"start":492.34,"end":520.056,"text":"涉及到衛福部 教育 警察 偵查體系整個司法 輔導如果真正沒有辦法去串起來的話那其實對於整個我們現在碰到的問題還是無解那我想今天排這樣的一個專報裡面最主要是我們在隨著社會在看待少年的時候其實這個態度都是"},{"start":522.011,"end":547.847,"text":"有時候你看立法院裡面一天裡面看到那麼多人在巡打的時候關注的面向都不一樣關注的面向都不一樣有時候你就變成說少年被當成需要少年犯罪當然需要去懲罰懲罰以後又好像變成安撫一個成年不安的政策的一個工具可是在另外一頭裡面他又被視為需要社會共同去保護重新引導的一個主體"},{"start":549.128,"end":562.759,"text":"所以怎麼樣去從預防、輔導、偵查、教育跟司法真正把它做一個對接不然少年司法永遠是事後再捕破網這個都沒有辦法去追上下一個悲劇"},{"start":564.737,"end":586.187,"text":"請今天各位安排這樣我們希望這樣的一個制度該做去橫向的一個聯繫整個邵司法修正完以後如何去把這個制度更健全呢我覺得我們司法院還有我們法務部還有衛福部教育體系 警政這個地方再努力一下好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄"}]}},{"id":"165973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859fa7aba3e2c5797fdbd93e540dfe0040ea0b20679a7fea94c39c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:14:18 - 11:22:12","影片長度":"00:07:54","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長部長今天我們特別排了這個森林法的修正草案"},{"start":24.963,"end":49.597,"text":"那最重要的方向就是要來遏止這個盜採這個盜伐的這個問題還有就是故意縱火森林縱火的這個行為最重要就要提高這個伐源來嚇阻這個作用那在森林娛樂區跟我們自然的保護區的這個餵養餵食野生動物這個方面的話我們卻沒有這個法則"},{"start":50.758,"end":57.391,"text":"所以我要本期想請教部長那如果說在餵養野生動物的時候會發生哪些問題"},{"start":59.662,"end":87.913,"text":"第一個部分就是你餵食野生動物的時候可能會造成一些野生動物除了野生動物以外還有一些可能的家犬或者其他進去會造成野生動物跟一般的家犬會造成一些衝突第二個部分就是其實野生動物就應該自然覓食你如果去餵養的時候會導致一些可能在我們在人在爬山的過程中它就會接近我們的人會造成一些更大的一個危害"},{"start":88.813,"end":110.846,"text":"還有一些疾病的傳播也會是 部長最重要是說近年來許多民眾出外踏青那我們看到一些野生動物像猕猴還是松鼠野鳥的部分他們來覓食覓食之後的話就讓這些動物會喪失了覓食的這個能力太過於依賴我們人類那但是人跟動物之間就會產生了這個衝突跟這個競爭的這個"},{"start":116.049,"end":130.763,"text":"争议冲突的时候这个情况的话我们要保护人类的话所以我们在很多的法都有规范在像一般在我们地方的话像就有公园的自治管理条例会去规范说禁止喂养"},{"start":131.343,"end":150.144,"text":"那我們國家國家管理法的話國家公務員管理法他也是有規範但是我們的森林法對於這個森林遊樂區跟自然保護區裡面就沒有這個規範有這個落差那所以我們希望說我們在這森林法這邊就可以要強調一下把它規範進去補這個漏洞您支持這個"},{"start":150.965,"end":166.443,"text":"我想基本上我們絕對支持也尊重委員的這些提議因為很多委員提到那我在這邊也跟委員說明當初我們這個修法的版本是為了山林的壓力一些生態壓力但是因為行政部門的這些法律的修正的時候"},{"start":167.324,"end":194.199,"text":"会经过非常多的程序但是这几年来又有更多的这些环境的压力或者是您刚才讲的喂养的压力来的时候我们没有办法就是说再退回来再重新修正所以委员在提案的时候我想我们一定会尊重跟支持基于我们要保护动物的健康跟民众的安全这个漏洞我们就必须把这规范捂上来好不好好 接下来要跟部长提的就是我们10月22号这个非洲"},{"start":195.956,"end":217.516,"text":"这个非洲这个猪瘟这个疫情的发生之后的话我们看这个情况可能是单一的个案那可能就是这个我们除以没有高温去增足而产生的那现在请问一下因为我们已经解除这个禁运了但是这个除以这个法令并没有解除那大概有明确的时间什么时候解除吗"},{"start":218.269,"end":233.296,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在如果要處理廚餘養豬是不是非副廚餘養豬這個部分我之前有說過了必須要落實徵組然後落實監控完整的立即的監控還有法令的部分特別是罰款的部分會處理然後還有一個地方政府"},{"start":233.976,"end":260.694,"text":"同意但是料源的部分因为我们大方向会有一个有一个落日条款有个落日那这个落日期间的过渡期间是让我们的猪农养猪有一个转型的机会那转型的辅导我们农业部已经准备好相关的方案的部分那我们在这个过渡期间会禁止家户厨余进到所谓的因为家户厨余是风险最高的部分我们是从风险的角度来处理"},{"start":260.794,"end":286.02,"text":"就要加強管理跟守護我們廚餘不要再發生這個有問題那部長你提到說未來會循序漸進有家庭廚餘跟我們事業廚餘你會先禁止這家庭廚餘那未來事業廚餘的部分的話你們也會循序漸進但是我們為了這個廚餘要禁止的話很多方面都各層各面都要去考量到但原規正傳這就會增加豬農的成本對不對"},{"start":288.781,"end":313.812,"text":"這個成本很高因為大部分的飼料都是黃小玉吃黃小玉的成本的話這部分的話我們未來對這個飼料的補助會繼續呢我想在這個禁止期間我們會我們已經在從事這個這個價差的一個補貼了然後後續如果要轉型成飼料的時候我們會給予一個飼料的轉型的這些費用包括它的飼料的這些生產的基本的設備我們也會給予補助"},{"start":315.393,"end":319.154,"text":"我們有一個比114年還優渥的一個方案所以還是會繼續飼料補助減輕他們營運的壓力對不對就是過渡期我們會來處理這個部分還有就是你的廚餘未來的廚餘廚餘跟我們現在的環境也跟民眾非常有關係如果說這個廚餘有很多種除了餵豬以外它還可以做發電或堆肥"},{"start":339.062,"end":360.498,"text":"那現在目前來講的話在台中跟我們桃園這邊的話就發電的這個設備那還有多堆肥的話在台南的話有兩個區域叫新化跟晨曦這個有高速廚餘的發酵場但是未來你要全面禁止廚餘的情況下你循序漸進這些設備你都是要去把建置好來吧"},{"start":361.508,"end":389.364,"text":"我想這個就是我們跟環境部所一直在討論的部分您剛才講到一個重點就是說禁止廚餘養豬這個部分我想農業部的一個職責但是在考慮到它的時程的時候必須考慮到廚餘如果沒有妥善處理會造成環境的壓力那這個部分像您所在的桃園市政府桃園市的部分本身是廚餘養豬大戶所以我們怎麼樣讓它有系統的轉換成飼料的部分是我們一直關切的"},{"start":389.884,"end":405.404,"text":"所以部长我们希望说你可以再跟环境部进行跨部会的讨论加强这厨艺可以能源化跟肥料化这两方面的层面来运用我所知道环境部一直在积极的规划这个部分这才可以彻底解决问题"},{"start":406.885,"end":424.223,"text":"因為你加強這個能源的話又可以發電但是現在大部分你在禁止廚藝的時候這些都放到焚化爐去閃燒這不是長久之計啦因為焚化爐是燒垃圾的所以我們希望你未來的話在廚藝能源化跟這個肥料化這兩方面要加強這個廠製的這個設置才能去"},{"start":428.057,"end":453.671,"text":"確實的解決這些問題才能夠解決民眾的疑慮跟我們整個環境整個整體的關鍵好不好這需要大家一起來努力然後我們也會跟環境部特別是進到焚化爐的部分那基本上他如果跟垃圾混在一起的時候大概10%是可以的但是相對的混在一起的話以現在的我所知道的資訊大概10%那現在只有3%那相對的就是除於要進到焚化的部分"},{"start":454.451,"end":472.267,"text":"可能跟水分也有关系所以前端的从厨余的收取要有一个重新的设计所以我们还是要分开来对 还是要分流生殖中心把它来发电或者是说我们来堆肥等等这些都可以解决现在的问题这也是我们一直在讨论的地方好 那就加油好 谢谢谢谢 谢谢吕"}]}},{"id":"17079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17079","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc66a25cdaa7df4ae8a019ac7643fb49cb85db5c09cad80ab786dc16c1b5a93f3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、教育部次長、衛生福利部次長、內政部警政署等就「成少共犯如何解？院、檢、警協作與社政教育體系整合策進展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-27T08:36:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T11:49:00+08:00","duration":11537,"影片長度":"03:12:17","委員發言時間":"08:36:43 - 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檢察司司長有來 那個是我們張司長矯正署副署長 劉副署長還有我們教育部國民及學前教育署副署長 戴淑芬副署長衛福部 呂健德政次還有保護師副司長 郭副司長"},{"start":1724.745,"end":1735.397,"text":"還有我們社會及家庭署兒少福利署檢驗視察我們張銀旭還有我們內政部警政署我們刑事警察局副局長蕭清潔蕭副局長"},{"start":1741.153,"end":1767.346,"text":"本次我們議程的排定是我們成少共犯如何解這個院檢警協作跟社政教育體系整合設計的一個展觀專題的報告跟詢答我們現在來先進行報告每位發言時間就三分鐘我們現在是不是先請我們司法院我們少年跟家事廳廳長我們鐘鐘林廳長"},{"start":1775.547,"end":1801.985,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進今天司法院奉邀前來貴委員會第12次的前期委員會議就陳紹共患如何解 院檢警協作與社政教育體系整合 策進展望做專題報告以下做摘要的報告進行指教"},{"start":1803.365,"end":1825.111,"text":"首先前提就是少數法因為依照兒童權利公約正當法律程序跟保障兒童的這個司法主體權所以修正了少數法的一個移送前申請強制處分措施的程序那在成少共患上"},{"start":1825.771,"end":1849.248,"text":"就造成了偵查一體以及少年司法先異的一個焊隔之處那基於這樣所以在成少共患如何維護社會治安以及讓偵查能順利的就是在程序能夠順利的進行同時又兼顧這個"},{"start":1851.85,"end":1869.35,"text":"我国少事法的一个保护儿童符合儿权公益的精神那在这个之下我们就由司法院跟行政院还有法务部高检署以及这个警政署卫护部等多次开会演商"},{"start":1869.89,"end":1898.578,"text":"那麼我們就精進了下列的作為第一個就是所有各地方少年法庭都定期跟檢察署來開這個聯繫會議然後決議這個成立有效的聯繫窗口然後來做這個所謂的證據的一個共用以及情資的共用那另外同時就這個少年守在地的一個"},{"start":1901.319,"end":1926.201,"text":"這個管轄權也給他定性下來讓檢警能夠迅速取得少年的強制處分第二個我們的精進作為裡面同時成立了這個所謂的這個少年法庭的這個專門處理申請緊急這個強制處分的一個法官那麼這叫這個這個類似成年人的這個所謂的"},{"start":1928.123,"end":1935.572,"text":"強制處分庭那麼能夠因應這樣跟檢察官迅速共同打擊犯罪那麼另外常態性設有調取這個證據資料的窗口包括筆錄另外有關證人的詢問畫面"},{"start":1944.764,"end":1957.812,"text":"也精進了三個作為也就是說在處理憲法第八條強制人身自由之後那麼迅速與檢察官合作讓檢察官能詢問證人以及遠距詢問以及最後的這個提訊"},{"start":1960.353,"end":1988.504,"text":"那麼同時進行所謂的專業的培訓邀請資深檢察官還有刑庭的專庭的這個強處庭的法官來對少年法官進行訓練那以上的作為都希望能夠精進突破偵查議題以及成少共患的解決防止這個所謂的黑幫在吸收少年那以上報告敬請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":1993.413,"end":2013.647,"text":"好 謝謝我們由議事錄之前已經選組完畢 尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議的議事錄有錯誤或遺漏如果沒有的話沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定了那我們接下來我們請法務部政務次長徐次長"},{"start":2017.682,"end":2042.311,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉要列席代表本部報告 敬請指教一 由少年擔任第一限制犯罪者的陳紹共犯案件已成為不可忽視的社會現象那詐騙 詐欺集團 販毒集團 組織性暴力犯罪等案件由勝那依本部統計113年少年矯正學校在校受感化教育之少年"},{"start":2042.971,"end":2067,"text":"觸犯詐欺罪之人數已超越觸犯傷害罪之人數第二 依少年事件處理法規定那觸犯刑罰法律少年事件由司法警察調查後移送少年法院司法警察同行 進行同行或逮捕少年均應於同行時期24小時內護送至少年法院檢察官不得偵查"},{"start":2067.7,"end":2087.632,"text":"若是陳少共犯的案件檢察官無法在移送少年法院前先行詢問少年以取得少年證詞那影響擴大追查及向上溯源的即時性那各少年法院對於少年少年共犯管轄認定不一意思呢警方"},{"start":2088.773,"end":2105.195,"text":"亦需異地奔波申請強制處分令狀令因少年法院核發強制處分令狀與成年犯的強制處分令狀核發不同步導致執行時間落差使共犯有串證或湮滅證據之機會"},{"start":2107.472,"end":2126.195,"text":"第三 面對上開偵辦的困境 行政院分別於113年12月11 114年2月20邀請司法院內政部警政署及本部召開跨院部協商會議並於114年7月9日與司法院共同召集協商陳紹共犯議題會議"},{"start":2127.456,"end":2151.437,"text":"各地檢署也會分別與各地方法院還有司法警察召開聯繫協商會議溝通作法本部會持續關注運作的成效第四 針對矯正學校少年入校以後課程設計本部矯正署所轄四所矯正學校皆依教育部十二年國民基本教育課程綱要總綱規定"},{"start":2153.198,"end":2177.689,"text":"於各領域課程設計 適切融入性別平等人權及法治等議題並加強法治教育或將反詐的理念融入相關課程活動中促使學生能夠了解非法行為及其法律責任第五 為利 矯正學校少年復歸社會矯正學校依學生個別需求及意願協助出校之籌劃及"},{"start":2178.949,"end":2191.836,"text":"資源連結 召開轉嫌局輔導會議協助出校或回歸校園連結就業資源或轉介到地方或公立就業服務機構提供相關的就業協助結合設政單位轉介"},{"start":2195.798,"end":2223.247,"text":"惠福部支持服務方案提早建立關係強化少年家庭支持功能並於出校後跟社政單位會共同追蹤輔導一年以貫穿式的服務提升少年保護的措施我想本部是對於少年的保護相關的措施我們都非常的注意那矯正學校在學校學生出校前後密切跟各網絡"},{"start":2224.607,"end":2243.504,"text":"單位來聯繫以充分的掌握個案情形及時予以學生必要的協助並落實家庭支持就業跟就學轉嫌以及逆境方案充分的合作等各項工作促使學生能夠順利復歸其餘部分請參考本部書面報告完畢"},{"start":2250.202,"end":2257.557,"text":"好 謝謝我們法務部徐政次接下來請教育部我們代副署長"},{"start":2264.404,"end":2280.681,"text":"主席 各位委員本部僅就針對偏差行為學生適性提供與對應輔導課程及措施進行業務報告我們先對偏差行為"},{"start":2282.783,"end":2297.358,"text":"適性提供與對應輔導課程及措施提出說明針對不同偏差行為的少年他的行為樣態跟情節我們都會提供適性的輔導措施及彈性課程第一個"},{"start":2297.938,"end":2316.093,"text":"针对偏差行为辅导的部分行政院跟司法院有依稍事法已经在110年会衔定定发布少年偏差行为预防及辅导办法先预防后辅导的执行作业方式来办理"},{"start":2316.613,"end":2334.174,"text":"學生如果有適應困難的問題可以透過慈輝班資源式的中途班合作式中途班以及多元彈性的學習內容高關懷計畫等等去穩定學生的就學"},{"start":2335.56,"end":2359.02,"text":"第二個部分針對偏差行為的那個防治以及就是避免學生參與不良組織犯罪的那個部分依據少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法第二條第一項第三款的規定學生有偏差行為比如說與犯罪習性的人交往參與不良組織家暴行於人或者是相互"},{"start":2361.382,"end":2376.716,"text":"鬥毆還沒有到傷害等等這種偏差行為的話那本部內政部跟法務部有嚴定警察機關學校發現學生疑似參加不良組織的那個標準作業流程那國教署也有訂有"},{"start":2377.256,"end":2405.794,"text":"学生疑似组织犯罪追捕小组执行计划等针对这些疑似参与不良组织的学生会依照规定通报并且实施辅导作为另外对防治学生药物滥用的曝险行为我们也会配合行政院新世代反毒策略行动纲令及教育部防治学生药物滥用实施计划落实三级的预防辅导工作"},{"start":2408.53,"end":2432.816,"text":"針對觸犯刑法法律的學生也會依少年矯正學校設置及教育實施通則第四條的規定與司法院、衛福部、勞動部跟我們相關的民間團體定期開會共同協助少年矯正學校教育跟進行相關的輔導工作"},{"start":2435.296,"end":2455.59,"text":"另外針對如果學生需要返校 銜接學校教育的話我們從113年起也有訂定過渡性教育措施相關的規定對於如果有危害他人的生命 身體之虞而且有接受過渡性教育措施的必要者"},{"start":2456.25,"end":2479.802,"text":"我們會協助提供資源那本部是社安網的一環那我們會積極的與衛政、社政、勞政、司法警政、民政等及相關的學校教育網絡那連結中央縣市政府及民間的團體資源一起以一組折多協力的方式協助這些的兒少那以上簡單報告那詳細的請參與我們的書面謝謝"},{"start":2485.474,"end":2491.622,"text":"好 謝謝教育部代副署長我們接下來請衛福部政務次長呂健德次長"},{"start":2497.259,"end":2524.822,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好感謝我們司法法治委員會的邀請本部來這邊提出報告以下 第一我國現行依據少年事件處理法以下整頓少事法建立處罰少年還有曝險少年的網絡合作機制那麼根據少事法第18條的規定少年觸犯刑法法律由少年法院依少事法那麼少年有曝險行為是少婦會"},{"start":2525.583,"end":2537.894,"text":"那麼這一個輔導機制已經在112年7月1號正式上路那麼第二我們根據超市法第42條第5項的規定認為有必要的時候可以徵詢相關的機關來進行相關的這個處置另外"},{"start":2541.236,"end":2564.106,"text":"第二點本單會依少年偏差行為預防及輔導相關規定建立相關的資源那這邊呢我想有四點來跟會上來做報告第一根據108年少事法的修正那麼行政院我們也訂定少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法那麼根據該辦法第六條規定少年有偏差行為而且有學這簡單來說有三個"},{"start":2566.027,"end":2585.034,"text":"如果說有偏差行為而且有學籍的話那麼是教育機關少年如果不具學籍的話那這是少府會那如果以上兩個都沒有的話那就跟我們就是社政單位根據我們的這一個兒少權法來進行那麼社政的主管機關為了促進少年健全的自我成長"},{"start":2585.774,"end":2611.16,"text":"在少年偏差少年有接獲他們的偏差行為情勢的時候我們是根據兒少權法來進行相關的這一個保護跟福利措施必要時得結合教育衛生警政少婦會等相關來進行相關處理第三有便於偏差行為的以及兒少及早介入的重要性那麼我們行政院已經把少年輔導工作納入強化社安網"},{"start":2611.9,"end":2633.936,"text":"的計畫重要主軸那麼補助人力推動少年輔導工作並且按照偏差行為以及犯罪樣態來進行那剛剛教育部這邊的副署長也報告我們這邊也跟教育部這邊來共同合作那麼本部將持續與各部會合作來推動落實推動兒少偏差行為的預防以及輔導工作以上衛福部的報告謝謝"},{"start":2637.959,"end":2643.465,"text":"好 謝謝女市長我們接下來請內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長蕭副局長"},{"start":2654.512,"end":2681.011,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生首先對各委員就警政業務的推動的關注與指導 由衷的感謝那今天就承受共犯如何解 願檢警協助與社政教育體系的整合與展望 那內政部就主責的項目做簡料的報告如下第一 少年與成人"},{"start":2682.27,"end":2707.283,"text":"成人共同實施犯罪的趨勢分析那經分析司法院的統計年報近五年成少共犯的比例約佔三成那113年佔了29.83的百分比有稍微上升的趨勢那在分析113年各常見少年犯的案例成少共犯的比例"},{"start":2708.847,"end":2721.837,"text":"比例最高的是妨害秩序 占了59.57次高者為詐欺 占了53.06第二 當前成少共犯的主要問題"},{"start":2723.257,"end":2751.343,"text":"那依現行少事法的規定除五年以上的重罪多由少年法院裁定保護處分並施以輔導或感化教育不會入監服刑那成年後又有這個刑案記錄的突銷機制導致少年犯為犯罪的付出代價過低亦受犯罪集團的煽動而利用來從事犯罪"},{"start":2752.725,"end":2778.141,"text":"而司法院近期所修正的條文以就前案的記錄突銷的條件予以限縮應能提高少年犯罪的成本來防止組織犯罪吸收利用少年犯罪本署竟表支持那偵辦成年少年案件分別適用於刑事訴訟法 授試法"},{"start":2780.117,"end":2788.243,"text":"而所適用的法律不同造成 成照共犯的管轄權的割裂那相關強制處分不能同步執行"},{"start":2790.137,"end":2812.832,"text":"少年共犯傳喚證據的時機等的困境目前法務部與司法院上研議這個相關的配套措施第三 在未來的策進方面本署將與各部會共同合作處理成少共犯的問題如與教育部各級學校"},{"start":2814.152,"end":2834.611,"text":"強化少年法制的宣導教育各警察機關將報請各地方檢察署的指揮針對組織性的詐欺 毒品 暴力討債等犯罪集團加強溯源查緝的力道將持續配合司法院研修少事法"},{"start":2836.042,"end":2856.32,"text":"本署已含請各警察機關於移送少年案件時能夠詳述與少年共犯的連結檢據檢察官的指揮書等資料來提供少年法院來裁定收容以利繼續向上溯源及其未到案的共犯"},{"start":2858.683,"end":2880.01,"text":"未來本署持續配合法務部與司法院進行研商其能提升少年法官之偵查面相的角色精進成少共犯的刑事偵辦效能 避利溯源偵辦利用未成年犯罪的組織或成人以上做簡略的報告 謝謝"},{"start":2882.369,"end":2903.343,"text":"好 謝謝我們衛務部內政部我們蕭副局長我們機關代表都報告完畢了相關書面內容請各位來參考並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來做詢答本會委員的詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘會本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長那我們上午"},{"start":2910.287,"end":2915.712,"text":"10點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位陳培宇委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部還有司法院我們請法務部徐政次還有我們司法院中庭長"},{"start":2933.669,"end":2948.048,"text":"委員長好 兩位早安其實我們已經看過了你們相關的報告而且在你們剛剛的口頭報告中也聽得出來一 你們都承認現行的法規還有現行的制度確實有困境對不對那這個"},{"start":2949.289,"end":2965.155,"text":"看起來你們也已經很認真的開過會而且開了不只一次會而且是跨部會之間的會議那甚至在你們的報告中你們還說到今年的十月底為止各地檢署都已經跟各地少年法院法庭司法警察機關召開協商會議與討論可是其實你們講到一句話說"},{"start":2969.996,"end":2978.784,"text":"還沒有辦法有一致且明確的做法很有可能會影響偵查成效所以後續要再持續開會以上我的理解是正確的嗎"},{"start":2980.498,"end":3003.217,"text":"是的好那如果是正確的我想我們還是要來一起關心到底這個困境是什麼來我們來看第一張其實要先感謝之前是吳宗憲委員排了一個考察然後我們就看見了陳紹共犯的困境那我想當時指出這些困境的檢察官他其實應該真的是在第一線充分感受到在相關偵查過程中的困境第一個管轄認定不一"},{"start":3003.757,"end":3030.368,"text":"第二个没有办法同步约谈第三没有办法同步搜索因为没有办法同步约谈没有办法同步搜索所以导致于错失关键证据的时机然后也因此就没有有可能就没有办法及时取得供述或者是上游的情资那这确实会让这个困境在现行制度跟现行法规都还没有办法对接情况下我们很多相关案件可能就没有办法好好往下走来下一张"},{"start":3031.548,"end":3047.83,"text":"那我們辦公室整理了目前依照少事法或者是刑事訴訟法我們針對少年犯跟成年犯相關的規範樣態非常不一樣還有偵查主體的不同其實主要是因為少年犯的偵查主體是法官而成人犯的"},{"start":3048.611,"end":3071.918,"text":"这个主体是检察官所以导致于呢不管是侦查犯罪特定情况且情况紧迫的时候或者是要进行强制到场或者是在24小时要解送指定处所证据收集或者是退案发查警方都因为侦查主体的不同而造成对话沟通上的困境那我很想知道目前我认为最辛苦的应该会是"},{"start":3073.178,"end":3100.979,"text":"法官跟檢察官他們都相對是辛苦他們有各自的主體性他們有各自對於相關法規的遵守必須要一直持續下去可是當遇到剛剛那個你們內政部這邊是不是也有說其實相關的案件佔了三成所以也就是說在日常的案件當中你們未來在開了這麼多會議之後你們未來打算如何去解這個命題我想要請兩位輪流發言 謝謝"},{"start":3106.028,"end":3124.559,"text":"報告委員 委員真的是點出我們目前遇到的困境那我們現在目前以現有的法令的制度之下我們只能透過各地檢署跟他們少年法庭這邊來做一個協商那可能會有筆錄共 就是說 分享 筆錄分享還有一些 就是說"},{"start":3130.382,"end":3154.416,"text":"或者是記起打電話溝通對不對對 然後或者是說他問完了以後我們有機會在少年法庭外面可以以證人身份再傳這些少年來作證目前怎樣就是說甚至有些法院可能他會要求把一些訊問要點然後我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官來做參考當然我們剛才刑事警察局副局長也講得很清楚我們希望在遺送書裡面就"},{"start":3155.276,"end":3174.805,"text":"他跟成年的關係要寫清楚寫得很清楚為什麼我們需要他留下來或者是跟我們合作把它寫清楚讓少年法庭的法官是有機會可以看到可能把它收容的一個必要性我想這個都是我們努力的地方但是目前法定就是這樣所以我們大概努力的部分在這裡"},{"start":3175.385,"end":3189.192,"text":"我花這麼多時間講出這麼多困境也留一些時間給您回應就是因為我們看見這件事情一到底要不要修法你們的討論會議當中有沒有提到要不要修法第二個我們也很好奇現在相關"},{"start":3190.753,"end":3213.325,"text":"協助偵辦的司法警察他們的困境他們到底要聽誰的第一時間他們到底要聽誰的如果兩邊都各自有一些堅持跟看法他們其實非常非常的為難或者是我們其實在你們的報告裡面也擔心串證的問題所以我真的認為對於後續的偵辦其實是很大的困境那來下一張所以如果有這些困境來看的話"},{"start":3214.446,"end":3230.641,"text":"因為少事法的規定是法官就是少年法這邊如果最後要往下再追查必須要把案件移送回檢察署那對於檢察署的檢察官來說他們會不會有一個心證說既然法官都已經又移回來給我那是不是我還是要接下來處理"},{"start":3231.562,"end":3260.104,"text":"那難道我要去證明法官的認定是不對的嗎我要否定他嗎這個我認為對檢察官也會造成壓力所以我們辦公室研究了很久之後發現這個真的困境很大對第一線的警察來說是困境對檢察官來說也是甚至對法官來說也是所以因為在你們的報告裡面我全都看完了我其實還是沒有看到比較具體的後續推進建議所以可不可以再給兩位一些時間告訴我你們後續推進到底你們想要往哪裡去一"},{"start":3260.464,"end":3271.266,"text":"你們要不要立法院支持修法二你們在實際推動跟兩邊的合作跨部會討論當中你們目前如何協助第一線檢察官司法警察還有少年法官"},{"start":3272.922,"end":3291.616,"text":"我想我只就一部分跟委員報告我們當然希望少年在少年法官接手以前有機會有時間讓檢察官能夠問得到這是你的期望對但是在於少年世界法因為主管機關是司法院所以我就說你看你的期待跟他的現行的法規就不一樣來這邊"},{"start":3293.459,"end":3319.401,"text":"報告委員第一個部分我想迅速的跟委員報告三個問題都解決了那癥結點在哪裡我一定會報告那第一所謂的這個成少共患申請強制處分這個各少年法庭有不同見解的部分已經統一了全部適用少事法普通審判權的一個管轄14條"},{"start":3321.022,"end":3344.372,"text":"少年所在地犯罪地都一定要受理不可以再移轉這個不會讓檢警奔波第一個解決了第二個全國各少年法庭跟檢警都定期召開解決成少共患問題的這個會議其中有一個我們兩個部分少年法庭都已經解決了第一"},{"start":3345.092,"end":3355.064,"text":"成立專責收案的少年法官立即收案 立即裁定那這個時候檢察官在偵查這個檢警這個共犯"},{"start":3360.409,"end":3387.993,"text":"認為什麼時候要出去搜手要去逮捕那只要我們有聯繫窗口兩邊的紀錄科長是聯繫窗口甚至也可以跟法官直接連接法官依照所有下去裁定不會影響所謂的偵查就擺在那邊不會的我們都在督考這個速度這是第二點第三點也已經成立了解決方案就是所謂的證據跟情搜資料共用"},{"start":3388.573,"end":3399.438,"text":"那已經成立但是為什麼第三點有一點困難呢因為當訊問完有溯源上面的資料那麼檢察官有沒有什麼需要這個檢察官跟法官要主動互相聯繫那都透過窗口這個有點慢最後一點我要跟委員報告就是所謂的證人訊問問題"},{"start":3409.642,"end":3424.01,"text":"那政人宣問問題我國在兒童人權上就最早已經被指證到113年才實施移送前程序要經上來法官審查強制存這個是被CRC指證第40條第三項明定"},{"start":3425.931,"end":3430.395,"text":"還有他的這個兩個解釋這個就是所謂24號第37點跟90點說成少共患他必須設有另外的程序去處理偵查中的兒童就18歲以下或者審理中的兒童18歲以下那現在如果要修法要訂定這個世界各國都有成少共患的偵查檢察官偵查可以但有訂定這個CRC跟"},{"start":3455.035,"end":3457.376,"text":"就是要遵守CRC的這些規定以上 我們現在協助三個事項憲法第八條24小時還有兒前公會事實條24小時強制處分具體到法庭那麼 訊話完畢 程序沒有違法我們立即可以跟檢方合作"},{"start":3475.825,"end":3489.71,"text":"傳票來帶去詢問這可以這個是要依照那個刑事網路的證人程序第二我們如果收容立即開演劇讓他詢問可以第三如果收容了他馬上要借題可以這個都有一個共識那實務操作我們會去監督這以上報告至於修法確實各國我們已經開了專家"},{"start":3497.694,"end":3519.865,"text":"諮詢會議各國的制度確實是檢察官為偵查主體陳少公案都是但他是合併偵查或分開偵查都有一套這個符合兒權公約40條的特別兒童保護程序以上說明好 謝謝你說得非常清楚我覺得你說得比報告寫得還要好我覺得你說得比較清楚"},{"start":3520.97,"end":3537.291,"text":"意思就是說我們承認困境我們看見困境承認困境然後我們確實透過跨部會會議去討論跟解決那對於還沒有辦法解決的部分要後續怎麼透過修法或是更加緊密的溝通我相信聽得出來兩位長官都說得非常清楚那我們後續也會再追蹤好不好"},{"start":3537.771,"end":3558.326,"text":"那我覺得今天大家共同看見這個困境代表後續大家要共同努力好那接下來我還是要快速問一下主席不好意思又花了一段時間我要問一下關於邵氏法其實你們司法院也提出修法關於邵氏法的修法行政院這邊提出來了83-1修法增加三年內不再犯的門檻才可以徒消前科的規定其實我還是持續關心啦"},{"start":3558.966,"end":3575.033,"text":"當然塗銷前科這件事情確實是現在社會大眾對於少年犯的想像跟對於行政機關的期待因為我們希望少年犯不要淪為大人犯罪的工具人所以我們希望把這個門檻加高但是對於很多在"},{"start":3576.394,"end":3595.362,"text":"可能觸及犯罪第一線真實生活樣態中的兒少來說可能這件事情他們還是會繼續被他們的老大蒙騙被這些大人拐騙我想後續更多的宣導跟持續進入第一線讓更多的兒少知道一 我們台灣已經要修法這個事情不能再被這些老大這樣亂搞第二個"},{"start":3597.163,"end":3618.939,"text":"對於他們來說提高這個門檻其實不是要擋住他們而是希望保護他們我認為相關的論述或者是持續的社會溝通都還是要必須拜託兩個部會持續跟教育部還有衛福部這邊持續協助好不好是好謝謝那這兩位先請回拜託我想要請一下呂健德次長我要快速跟您講一下關於出法少年的相關安置謝謝"},{"start":3622.301,"end":3651.688,"text":"委員早安好 次長很開心在司法法室看見你因為在司法法室就會有其他相關而少的問題第一個我們其實之前跟您討論過端安於第一線的安置機構人員他們發現人力跟資源都很不足因為現在是1比6可是我們根據統計發現現在所有的安置機構裡面被認定為難治兒的其實全台灣將近有4000多位而這個困境我相信您是知道之前我們在討論的時候有說現在的照顧人力比是1比6你之前建議我說到要1比4"},{"start":3653.55,"end":3669.77,"text":"我們回頭去問安置機構如果降成1比4有一個很大的問題根本沒有那麼多人要去現場工作這是第一個問題會有人力匱乏還有如果沒有分級分類其實難治而繼續塞入安置機構依然是困境如果沒有分級分類所以我之前是跟次長請教"},{"start":3670.911,"end":3688.885,"text":"我們可不可以在現行1比6的情況下我們加入非常自信的獎勵計畫讓願意把人力從1比6提到1比4或是做更多精進的安置機構我們給予獎勵這個部分有沒有機會包圍 可以 沒問題我那個非常非常同意這你阿莎莉喔沒有啦 這孩子他媽要比較謹慎啦你若沒有比較謹慎我覺得這個國家跟社會的困難我會覺得這個國家投再多錢都值得所以我覺得這不僅要做而且馬上做啦"},{"start":3701.514,"end":3718.081,"text":"我們現在兩個重點 剛才說的分級分類男子兒的部分 我們現在投入資源不是一比四而已我們現在針對最困難的那個部分我們一方面也要給民間比較多的一個誘因另外第二個就是說整個社工這邊的加成"},{"start":3720.602,"end":3747.54,"text":"我們這邊我們來我想細節我們都還可以再討論那第二個問題其實我們看我們辦公室開始研究相關數字例如說澳洲以澳洲為例安置一個小孩的晚上成本大概是2572到4227台幣加拿大一個晚上至少是8737我其實沒有要跟你計較錢因為你很有誠意而且衛福部確實對兒少照顧一直很努力我只是想問我們台灣有沒有自己的精算結果有沒有機會六個月內給我相關照顧一個兒少的成本精算結果"},{"start":3750.302,"end":3765.344,"text":"看你用委託研究的方式或怎麼樣好啊 委託研究OK或者先用示範啦或者先用示範的方式我們先踹出一個一個模式出來對 因為台灣也會有城鄉差距的問題嘛像我們的主席服務台東其實偏鄉的小孩收容成本"},{"start":3765.745,"end":3784.874,"text":"不見得比都會地區的小孩收容成本還要低而這個收容成本如果都讓民間安置機構去負擔他們的募款也相對很辛苦謝謝次長的承諾第二個相關研究我們來推進再來最後是工作人員的養成跟待遇其實工作人員他們在學校修的都是教育類 幼教類 社工"},{"start":3785.254,"end":3812.062,"text":"可是實際知道進到兒少安置機構才發現有非常多現場的食物困境是過去的養成課程裡面所沒有學的我知道你們衛福部有開設專業課程可是很多第一線的人告訴我們相關專業課程可能對於現場的銜接不夠我想我們後續來檢討相關課程到底還可以怎麼協助衛福部來精進怎麼把更多民間所需的聲音甚至是我們看到現在民間有很多機構開始自己安排課程在訓練安置人員對不對像萬八計畫他們這樣"},{"start":3815.003,"end":3839.609,"text":"所以我想後續的安置機構課程我們也一起來做精進跟討論跟報告好不好我們辦公室會再跟你們援我們社福社工過去在這一塊的養成包括實質我覺得都不太夠那我覺得這一塊可以跟整個民間現在目前都在做安置的這個部分我們共同攜手趕快來把一些更Practical的一個那個Training Program趕快把它弄出來好 那我們辦公室就三個議題會再跟次長衛福部來援好 謝謝非常感謝裴委員對於這個問題的關心 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3844.096,"end":3845.717,"text":"我想接下來有請吳宗憲委員來做宣達"},{"start":3869.096,"end":3877.141,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們請司法院警政署還有法務部跟小政署司法院中廳長法務部徐次長"},{"start":3880.551,"end":3907.323,"text":"好 謝謝我延續剛剛陳培宇委員的一些問題因為我其實一直以來我重視的問題一直以來我質詢過很多次的問題其實跟剛剛陳培宇委員所提出來其實蠻類似的其實一個很重要的狀況就是在陳少共犯的時候他所引發的偵查割裂的問題這個是我們目前一個還沒有徹底解決的一個難題"},{"start":3910.117,"end":3928.148,"text":"我想我今天要談的三個議題是前端少婦會制度的漏接還有終端陳少共犯偵查的割裂還有後面矯正廚藥的無效這根本都跟不上目前詐欺犯罪結構的變化那我們先講雖然上一次法務部長跟我在那邊"},{"start":3929.268,"end":3948.985,"text":"在那邊講來講去說他不認為詐欺是民怨第一名但我這邊還是跟各位報告我後來回去再詳細的調查過詐欺確實現在是民怨第一名我這邊先說第一件事情我剛剛講的那三個問題也是我們現在為什麼詐欺犯越打越多少年車手抓不完的一個真相"},{"start":3950.886,"end":3968.493,"text":"這個顯示我們前端的漏接然後終端制度被卡死了然後最後送到矯正機關也是去度假然後虛隱故事浪費人民的納稅錢所以整個系統都在失靈才會導致現在有源源不絕的小朋友被當免洗筷來做犯罪的事情"},{"start":3969.873,"end":3992.807,"text":"今天警政署的報告我看到在少年犯罪中有將近三成是和成年人共犯所以我們單看少年詐欺犯罪像車手就有超過一半以上都是成年人在背後控制但是事實上我跟各位報告現實上絕對是更多有太多的黑數了所以如果我們今天沒有完整的一個偵查"},{"start":3994.332,"end":4023.493,"text":"你根本抓不到後面是誰在操控這些少年所以詐騙集團通常都是集團性的甚至有一些還躲在國外或是有完整的防火牆如果這個沒有處理好永遠這個詐欺打不完那我們現在會不會我們整個少年法院變成是詐欺集團好用的一個工具因為我國有超級完整的少年保護就會不會被詐欺集團剛好利用來"},{"start":4025.403,"end":4050.748,"text":"來當作吸收少年的一個工具因為他都跟那些少年犯講沒關係你被抓到了前科也會徒銷那你去了那法官也會把你當作是學生一樣的照顧那你出來了也沒事也不會有前科登記然後所以這些詐欺集團就源源不絕地用小朋友那其實受害的是誰是小朋友一批換掉再一批再一批再一批有更多不同的"},{"start":4051.741,"end":4066.255,"text":"那个生力军进去所以我担心的是这个问题就我们会不会在以为误以为我们在保障未成年人的同时使我们是害惨了更多未成年人这是我们对于我们现在制度一定要去讲一个很重要的点"},{"start":4067.075,"end":4091.783,"text":"因為上一次我也問過法務部跟司法院因為我們之前對於陳少共犯的偵查的方式其實有嚴重的割裂所以一般第一線的偵查人員跟我抱怨最多的就是他抓到一個詐欺集團成年人歸地檢署然後少年歸少年法院就整個偵查割裂當然剛剛廳長也有提到說我們會有很多模式我們會盡快問完然後讓檢方來去"},{"start":4093.243,"end":4111.282,"text":"来把这个少年拿去问证人笔录但是我跟两位报告现场有很多当过检察官的人我们都知道很多时候问笔录就是那一瞬间我们都在跟时间赛跑第二个有很多人在被问第一次笔录的时候暗中出供他在第一次笔录的时候最有可能讲出事实"},{"start":4111.863,"end":4129.965,"text":"但是在第一次比喻问完之后在做第二次比喻的中间他知道你要问什么他知道被你已经被你知道了什么所以他开始会开始在圆自己的黄开始在那边跟你兜圈子所以第二次新闻比喻第三次新闻比喻的时候如果你没有更新的证据提出来你比喻常常问不到东西"},{"start":4130.478,"end":4148.585,"text":"那這個就是我現在擔心的一個點去少年法庭法官在第一次問完之後他後面在檢察官在問的時候他講的都跟前面都不一樣都是圓過之後的謊甚至少年犯他在到少年法院的時候有成年人跟著那成年人會怎麼樣教他要之後要怎麼面對檢察官這個"},{"start":4150.727,"end":4167.629,"text":"少年法庭這邊沒有考量過還有一個任何犯罪的偵辦我們有時候醞釀了他自然就醞釀了三個月五個月八個月都有可能但是我們把資料交給少年法庭的法官的時候他就只是那瞬間看完之後他根本搞不清楚這個案子他就開始問筆錄了"},{"start":4168.59,"end":4196.028,"text":"他問完之後會不會把整個案子毀掉讓這個少年犯本來會講的到檢察官那邊就不講我跟你講這都是偵查第一線實務絕對遇到我現在跟各位報告的就是偵查實務第一線會遇到那我就說現在現場好幾位檢察官我都認識大家都知道我在講什麼這部分要麻煩那個廳長這是很嚴重的事情麻煩廳長因為廳長畢竟院方不是走偵查出身的還是要多跟法務部這邊溝通一下好嗎"},{"start":4198.961,"end":4220.606,"text":"我想現在我必須要跟國人報告幾個點第一個點就是像北檢破惡的扎梯集團裡面有五個少年在裡面就是北檢在偵辦就有一個少年戶籍在花蓮一個在新竹就還要求他們要把少年犯送到戶籍所在地的法院剛剛廳長有提到"},{"start":4223.307,"end":4251.922,"text":"就是這個部分廳長現在是不是所有的就是依據行為地來處理就好統一由行為地那邊的上聯法院來處理報告委員確定而且這個如果是駁回抗告一定二審會支持沒問題因為我剛好聽你在回答陳培宇委員的部分那這個問題應該解決了就是強制全國要一致共用不能說法官在說我是獨立審判好不好這部分再麻煩您這邊要確定第二個就是"},{"start":4253.05,"end":4274.719,"text":"少年犯抓到24小時要送少年法院那很多時候偵查我們很清楚很多人不懂偵查他聽問24小時這麼長時間你還沒時間問嗎但事實上我們在第一線偵查過的人就知道24小時遠遠不夠用我們有非常多的證物要釐清我們要搜索我們有很多證人要問所以24小時常常是不夠用的"},{"start":4275.379,"end":4303.213,"text":"所以變成很多時候重要的證人是少年的時候我們會變成是檢察官看得到碰不到我們很想問這個少年你的上游是誰車手頭是誰但是很多時候因為少年要送少年法院然後就線索就從此斷掉這部分是很麻煩的一個很大的問題所以廳長黃金24小時這個時間差你制度上面你們有沒有思考該怎麼辦該跟檢方怎麼處理"},{"start":4306.774,"end":4331.566,"text":"是 報告委員剛剛我有說明了三點的處理方式那麼但是如果還是不符合偵查議題迅速一起來處理那實質上各地檢跟少年法庭還有司法警察有三個精進的作為第一個就是說司法警察他有初步的詢問他的詢問的共患跟上游會"},{"start":4332.907,"end":4347.546,"text":"更緊密去做第二個就少年法官已經有共識對這個進來有共患的那警察單位有提供一些意見後檢察官的指揮室有提供意見那法官也會就這個共患詳細的來問這個少年"},{"start":4350.189,"end":4356.654,"text":"那麼法官跟檢察官訊問的證人筆錄都有證據能力這個是在協商共同方面第三點就是要朝著這個方向來走將來如果大家有共識要跟國外一樣要在陳紹公案有一個所謂偵查主體檢察官全部來處理但只要符合CRC就可以我們覺得會支持這個一起來研議修法謝謝廷長但我還要講一個因為我看過大家的報告"},{"start":4379.383,"end":4399.47,"text":"我覺得建議檢察官把問題交給法官問都有證據能力沒有錯但是你們考量的只是證據能力你們沒有考量到偵查細節的部分整個偵查失誤的問題所以說有時候看到這個我會覺得這好像就是大家在象牙塔辦公室裡面想出來的解決方法這個在第一線完全不好用"},{"start":4400.37,"end":4426.908,"text":"而且絕對會耽誤到整個刑事的偵查你要知道檢察官警察調查官他發動一個搜索是好幾個月偵查的這醞釀才出來的我剛有跟各位報告但是你要去叫一個法官要馬上要能夠搞清楚這個案子在搞什麼案子的核心是什麼不可能啦我們那個券有時候疊起來比人還要高法官真的沒有時間能夠理解案子是什麼所以這個不是一個真正解決"},{"start":4428.169,"end":4456.806,"text":"那個問題的方法就有說甚至把偵查當噁戲只是給全國人民一個樣板來看我們有做了這些好像有效其實真的效果真的不好而且檢察官還要等法官開完庭在法官開庭之前甚至碰不到這個重要的證人這個少年犯這個會讓檢察官很難處理這個案子所以你們堅持程序正義沒有錯但是堅持程序正義難道要在犧牲打擊犯罪的效率上面"},{"start":4458.187,"end":4475.846,"text":"這兩個東西一定要平衡而不是說為了成於爭議打擊犯罪這個一點都不在乎因為你這樣子會製造更多的未成年被利用的被害人所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們邵氏法雖然是保護但是不能溺愛"},{"start":4477.438,"end":4499.661,"text":"我是擔心邵氏法現在的狀況已經變成溺愛未成年人我剛剛講的溺愛未成年人看起來好像我國法治很保障未成年人但是最後的結果是什麼詐欺集團或這些犯罪集團更喜歡用這些年輕人因為沒有什麼成本另外我再請問一個主要的還有一個問題就是"},{"start":4502.403,"end":4531.635,"text":"我很擔心黑幫在陳紹共犯的時候他一直把小朋友當免洗筷警政署的報告就已經說這個房子著火了結果手上握有滅火器的這些司法院還在程序優先這個就不好了好不好真的跟偵查上面要有要一個橫頻不能說程序保障無限的擴大然後對於犯罪的偵查到最後就搞不定了這個可能"},{"start":4532.768,"end":4561.138,"text":"還是司法院你們再思考一下看有什麼改善的方式因為現在小朋友都覺得說反正我去問警察也不能對我怎麼樣那法官只是念一念叫我回去乖乖聽爸媽的話請問一下這個以現在的小朋友這有效果嗎所以我們不能讓本來應該成為社會棟樑的這些小朋友以後長大變成社會的問題這部分我想麻煩你們要注意我們真的很恐懼這些小孩子在這種縱容的制度之下價值觀會崩壞"},{"start":4562.358,"end":4574.976,"text":"或者是說我們也恐懼說未來台灣會不會衝刺的這種很多沒有法治觀念的人這個再麻煩你們能了解警政署我想請問一下這個少年割頭案其實這個少年在"},{"start":4578.46,"end":4604.206,"text":"加害行為的前一年111年的時候就已經有被查獲身上有帶有刀子但是好像也沒有什麼處理那警政署是認為說這個他不是經常性的攜帶刀械他只被查獲一次所以他沒有啟動保護機制那我想請問一下你們這麼拘泥於這種法律文字是不是就錯失了司法及早介入輔導的機會小朋友帶刀上學就有問題"},{"start":4606.067,"end":4623.514,"text":"你們有沒有希望說修正一些相關的標準有沒有跟委員報告就是因為他是在學在學所以變成這個輔導由學校來那個如果他不是如果是輟學就是當然我們的哨會會來做開案接辦那有關是現在"},{"start":4625.054,"end":4643.893,"text":"少數法的規定就是處罰 偏差 復選這些其實都是疊加的那我們也是請照會一直從要求 從後來做結案因為這樣我這樣聽來聽去還是比較官方式的說法那我還是跟各位報告一下"},{"start":4645.629,"end":4661.591,"text":"这个小朋友带刀上学这其实是一件蛮严重的事情不能说我们拘泥于文字说非经常性所以我们就不启动一些司法的厨艺因为这会让其他的未成年人在学校上学的那些小朋友其实都是陷于危险"},{"start":4662.632,"end":4676.768,"text":"這部分我想麻煩你們稍微看看文字的部分有沒有辦法再加以修正到能夠讓保障能夠更周全最後我是想請法務部還有矯正署"},{"start":4682.469,"end":4691.261,"text":"好 那個防護部的矯正署我要提一個數據監獄內詐欺洗錢受刑人佔全體受刑人的20%那少年矯正學校"},{"start":4693.649,"end":4714.599,"text":"跟詐欺有關的這些學生佔26%也就是說成人監獄的五分之一少年矯正機關的四分之一都跟詐欺犯有關但是你們的處遇策略只有最老掉牙的法治教育 上課 輔導你們就只有這個但是上課有效嗎很多上課無效因為"},{"start":4715.76,"end":4740.887,"text":"如果上课有效他在外面听老师讲就会很有效果了所以不能只拘泥在请他们坐在教室里面听还有就是说有时候我们说医疗上面对于没有病逝感的病人要怎么医治这是很多医生烦恼的事情那这些少年犯他们去ATM领钱他面对了一个机器把钱领出来他没有办法去感受到那些被害人"},{"start":4741.926,"end":4768.661,"text":"那个痛心疾首甚至自杀的那种痛苦他们感受不到所以你今天叫他那边上课跟他一直讲然后他就在底下玩他的那我有去监所去视察那我们去的时候那矫正所去视察那老师在上面上课小朋友在后面做他自己的事情所以效果不大这个变成我们在骗纳税人而已我们在骗一般的民众说我们有在做事实上一点效果都没有所以"},{"start":4769.401,"end":4793.299,"text":"對小朋友來說矯正機關是上上課去度假中心去度個假白吃白喝的然後度個假就出來又度精了他們的想法是這樣這樣是不會悔悟的他們也不懂得自己對社會傷害多大所以我希望法務部能夠在兩個月內提出炸雞飯土育的精進報告那內容必須包括第一個引入被害人NGO的保護團體進行衝擊式的輔導"},{"start":4796.195,"end":4822.658,"text":"因為我們在跟金管會接觸的時候金管會也是跟我們建議現在很多詐欺犯其實很多銀行他們認為說自己要盡到企業的社會責任他們願意提供一些服務提供一些對於這些詐欺未成年被告的幫助那你們是不是可以跟他們結合去運用社會的資源去把這些被害人這種保護的NGO團體我們能夠把他引入去協助"},{"start":4823.919,"end":4849.612,"text":"然後甚至我們讓被害人能夠對這些小朋友能夠現身處地的告訴他家庭因為這個詐欺案而怎麼樣分崩離析甚至有人去自殺我自己就驗過因為受詐欺而自殺的死者我自己都驗過了那我也問過好幾個以前同事大家都有類似的經驗有驗過那種因為受詐欺而去自殺的所以這不是一個社會少數的問題那還有"},{"start":4852.87,"end":4869.444,"text":"请落实劳动工作矫正他们的金钱观要让他们知道一分耕耘一分收获而不是用骗的骗到的就是自己的那孝平不孝昌然后有钱就好不能让他们这样还有就是少年出所之后更生还有职业转弦"},{"start":4870.345,"end":4891.835,"text":"也要請司法院的少年保護官也要稍微落實一下因為我要強調法務部一定要知道矯正機關是司法最後一道防線你前面沒有處理好或是前面辦了然後丟給矯正機關就矯正機關也沒有處理好大家就一團亂我們現在其實有一點失控了這個不是說交交報告寫一寫就好你要真的落實能夠解決他們問題的"},{"start":4894.617,"end":4922.634,"text":"而且也請思考院不要再拿保護未成年人當做一切的藉口然後要整個讓犯罪偵查都無效最後10秒鐘今天有一份新聞就是有受刑人在抱怨說監所裡面他帶小朋友進去受刑的時候結果小朋友的營養還不足他吃的東西根本小朋友"},{"start":4923.706,"end":4944.28,"text":"吃这些东西营养会不够他已经出来抱怨了还有小朋友在哭的时候他只能把小朋友抱到走廊或抱到公用厕所里面去安抚还有监所里面过于闷热小朋友那些有的年纪很小一岁两岁受不了在那边哭闹这个不对今天父母犯错小孩子不能让他进去一起"},{"start":4945.305,"end":4968.174,"text":"一起這樣子啦你們是不是要改善有帶小朋友進去受刑的這些受刑人你是要改善一下他們的環境因為不是為了這個受刑人而是為了小孩好不好這小孩是無辜的就小孩子在裡面吃的東西營養也不足要接受醫療接受早療跟醫療協助也沒有機會然後小朋友"},{"start":4968.894,"end":4987.142,"text":"他说连需要活动一个礼拜只能安排三次每次十分钟的户外活动那你这小朋友的健康会受影响啊拜托去厘清这些事情是不是真的这个事情跟刚刚那些我都非常的重视我想今天主席一定非常重视"},{"start":4988.142,"end":5016.739,"text":"帶未成年人進去受刑的結果小朋友一個禮拜只能三次每次十分鐘戶外活動你要這個運動量大的小朋友怎麼辦稍微說明一下因為這個報導有點沒問題我今天不用我只是因為沒有時間了我只是說請你們釐清告訴我一下這個報導真實性以及如果他說的是真的改善的方式為何好不好是好這就是國家未來的棟樑啦好謝謝各位謝謝主席好謝謝吳宗憲委員也謝謝兩位好那接下來有請羅志強委員"},{"start":5025.985,"end":5052.61,"text":"主席有請司法院中廳長以及我們法務部徐次長還有內政部的蕭副局長好 請中廳長 徐次長還有蕭副局長委員長我現在先請教次長炸期嚴重嗎情況蠻嚴重的我們目前打炸的司法人力足夠嗎"},{"start":5054.977,"end":5080.568,"text":"不能用足夠來講就是說我們的業務負擔很重好 業務負擔很重那我們來看看我們現在這個人力的分配跟工作分配上到底出了什麼問題我看到這個高等台灣高等法院這個月13號的一宗刑事判決有一個常年旅居國外的成性女子被控在回台灣的時候在區公所外拿走一把傘"},{"start":5082.003,"end":5101.431,"text":"結果遭檢方依竊盜罪起訴 纏送一年半法院一審判定監視器畫質太糊 根本看不清竊賊的臉而且成女所提出的手機記錄跟社會局列印資料的時間點"},{"start":5103.212,"end":5129.96,"text":"證明竊賊偷閃的同時他人根本還在屈公所內所以獲判無罪我想請教市長你知道檢方接下來採取的行動是什麼嗎我們尊重檢察官檢方還是上訴二審還是上訴結果高院在何怡婷判決裡她再次詳細說明成女應該判無罪的理由但也大篇幅的抨擊"},{"start":5131.785,"end":5150.187,"text":"檢警追訴犯罪是違反比例原則在這個案子上Eason已經跟你講不可能是陳女士竊賊但Eason的公訴檢察官沒有在積極舉證他的竊盜犯行用例行公事的心態來提出上訴他也特別指出啊"},{"start":5151.314,"end":5172.245,"text":"就算檢察官認為有足夠的犯罪嫌疑立法者仍然賦予檢察官違罪不舉或還起訴處分的裁量權那這個案件根本違反比例原則而且還損及無辜民眾對於各自的保護你知道這位陳姓女子她要面對什麼樣的一個司法的一個爛訴的糾纏跟消耗嗎 請問市長"},{"start":5177.286,"end":5200.4,"text":"這個案件會議拖這麼久中間應該就是有大概就是否認那否認的話就是我告訴你連續被兩個省級法院電你導致他要在一省二省偵查不斷的委請律師光律師費幾百把傘都可以買了更何況人家還說根本沒有證據"},{"start":5207.284,"end":5236.879,"text":"我想點這個事情上一次我在質詢我們的部長的時候我講另外一個例子給大家聽清潔隊員撿到一個廢棄的電鍋殘值32元他看到一個拾荒老婦覺得很可憐就把電鍋送給拾荒老婦請問次長這位清潔隊員最後的下場是什麼下場是什麼"},{"start":5240.03,"end":5268.107,"text":"被贪污治罪条例起诉啦这个构成要件就是贪污治罪条例来了喔我还是要特别讲啊32元的电锅没关系啊你要讲构成要件你们的部长还讲说这个他不合理啊他要再修法了是我们有在修12条我们有这个修法计划你知道我今天质询问你第一个问题是什么我知道就诈骗诈骗的人力的问题对啊"},{"start":5270.779,"end":5285.631,"text":"我覺得今天司法官很辛苦警察很辛苦連法官都很辛苦檢察官都很辛苦台灣詐騙爆天亮你光打詐都已經是沒有力氣了"},{"start":5287.472,"end":5316.662,"text":"但是我看到你們今天花很多功夫在一些我直接講我真的覺得很奇怪的案子上面在消耗司法人力啊那些法官還要進來去判這些無聊的一把傘的案子連證據都收集不齊全就隨便送到法院去一審二審都打臉還是一樣啊因為引以如意要上訴啊就一把屈公所愛的傘啊法院還說根本就不是他啊"},{"start":5318.064,"end":5346.426,"text":"结果人家侦查一审二审要跑来跑去我想请问次长律师费谁出你出吗不是吧没有没有这个律师费谁出嘛来我想请问我们的厅长请问这个当事人律师费是谁出的当然是当事人出对呀除非我们有月券除非是他这个中低收入一审就十万块去申请法两审就二十万"},{"start":5348.03,"end":5373.751,"text":"侦查阶段是不是要请律师出庭几十万就没了啦一把伞多少钱啊7-11买60块新伞可以买多少把伞要不要算一算我为什么要讲这个事情我再来讲下一件事来就像上次我质询的来请教次长太子集团什么时候进到台湾的"},{"start":5379.23,"end":5406.675,"text":"進來台灣多久了如果是情資的話應該是108吧我直接講我告訴你進來台灣9年了警管會通報你們有6年了調查局說開始辦有4年了辦到最後美國開始10月8號動作之後我們開始搜索對不對約談抓人對不對"},{"start":5407.873,"end":5426.936,"text":"在那之前有沒有搜索 沒有有沒有約談證人 沒有有沒有今天分案調查 沒有可是我要講45億是小錢嗎 請問次長不是不是嘛這麼大的違法金流在台灣串了九年"},{"start":5428.154,"end":5449.02,"text":"通報就六年 調查就四年包括司法警察是有掌握相關的線索很好啊 掌握真好啊掌握真好 既沒搜索也沒約談對不對那我前置犯罪的但是你們交保還蠻大方的抓到八成都交保那個是比例的是在這個警察裡面我跟你講 那個特助啊十五萬交保還抓到我們院長震怒咧我們院長不是震怒"},{"start":5457.52,"end":5483.965,"text":"打擊詐欺人員士氣大家批的是法院啦批的是法院 但結果是什麼地方法院還發新聞稿說那是訓後交保 那跟法院沒有關係這都後話我要回頭講的重點在哪裡啊來 我們今天看到你今天為什麼今天整個的所謂的打詐人力的不足"},{"start":5486.038,"end":5512.231,"text":"我光看今天檢察官我們的司法系統我們檢察官檢調我都覺得你們的有時候辦的效率也是很好啊我印象很深刻啊有一個民眾在網路上貼了一個綠色雞蛋說是黑心臭雞蛋他也沒說是這雞蛋是什麼哪裡來的喔他也只是說他買來的喔結果呢8個小時被約談被抓起來速度也很快啊"},{"start":5514.144,"end":5541.886,"text":"然後有貼檢察官照片對不對也是一樣啊火速啊幾個小時就抓到人啊你這些點點滴滴看起來那麼有效率的事情在這種事情上那我們看到詐欺9年無動於衷貼個綠色雞蛋8小時抓到人啊9年無動於衷你叫人民怎麼看啊"},{"start":5543.086,"end":5565.646,"text":"我上一次質詢我對部長光跟一個民怨第一名這句話吳宗憲講的跟他吵架吵個三分鐘我就不懂了到底為什麼我再問一次嘛TBS最新民調多少人認為台灣炸氣很嚴重百分之多少你知道嗎 次長報告委員 這個資料我沒有拿到92%你知道多少人認為不嚴重多少人 4%"},{"start":5572.538,"end":5601.03,"text":"幾乎全民共憤啊 全民公憤啊詐欺的言重是全民的公憤啊就為了一個民怨第一名在那邊吵架吵半天我還是拉回到今天你就看到了啊那個捐電鍋的貪污起訴啊 捐鍋者誅詐欺者喉 太子集團九年開開心心"},{"start":5602.52,"end":5627.843,"text":"然後呢沒偷閃者豬因為那個陳姓女子根本沒偷然後呢詐欺者逍遙爽九年還在爭執民怨是不是第一名我們立法院到現在為止我相信次長你知道打詐的預算我們都非常支持的包括我們主席也很支持都很支持"},{"start":5629.81,"end":5658.785,"text":"可是今天我們看到的打詐的成效辦案的心態你關那麼多的重大詐欺案件我到現在不能理解啊就像我上次質詢我講啊如果今天說實在話如果說今天他來台三個月九個月一年你因為要埋線要去調查要去收證你說沒有關係啦那個大案子嘛"},{"start":5660.148,"end":5680.918,"text":"不是啊 我也問過金管會啊他事實無疑是非常大的金流耶這麼大金流串來串去 台灣串來串去至少串六年 你們知道以後串六年他進來九年 但是被我不算前面金管會通報之前那三年通報你們就六年"},{"start":5683.71,"end":5691.271,"text":"那請問你 今天我們看到為什麼講下一代很慘啊現在炸雞集團 抱歉啦已經在摧毀我們國家未來主人翁啦是不是啊 我們請教育部的我這樣講沒錯吧整個炸雞 包括車手炸雞集團侵入校園的問題越來越嚴重嘛 對不對對啊你今天如果沒有把炸雞車主根絕國家下一代就陪在上面"},{"start":5713.897,"end":5724.764,"text":"講得這麼沉重就希望我們的政府部門真的真的拜託把人力精神好好用在打詐上面 謝謝"},{"start":5727.954,"end":5747.845,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員這個對比很強烈那確實我們那整個打詐這個不用做民調也知道說這個是國內民眾還是非常氣憤的一件事情我們政府也應該有更具體的一個作為成效啦 最主要還是要有成效啦來 接下來我們請王逸川委員詢答羅志強 我跟你講一下這支就要落開了你看看"},{"start":5757.869,"end":5764.574,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請廳長跟政務次長請市法院總廳長 徐政次委員長 委員長謝謝召委 今天擺這個節目因為我看你們兩個人在講話我相信都委託說不出來所以不好意思說對方配合到的問題"},{"start":5787.403,"end":5813.997,"text":"我從這個法務部的這個報告啊我請這個廳長啊你來討論一下法務部的報告啦他說他面臨的三大困境第一個管轄權你剛才有解說這一定改觀了嘛對次長這比較重要嘛是是這沒問題嘛那第二個困境是強制處分執行步調的歧義啊這廳長您有什麼看法"},{"start":5815.218,"end":5842.358,"text":"報告委員這個目前我們在推動下已經解決那我報告如下就每一個縣市的少年法庭檢察官警政單位警察單位定期召開這樣解決這個問題的會議用三個方式解決第一成立一個專案的一個聯繫窗口第二我們所有的法官"},{"start":5843.058,"end":5868.475,"text":"都有受理窗口馬上受理不延誤第三配合檢察官要速度徵收第四就是有關情資共用跟這個證據共用只剩最後一個就是訓問這個通行強制處分的少年檢察官能不能先問的法律問題這樣子那有沒有發生過檢察官啊次長有沒有發生過檢察官啊"},{"start":5869.255,"end":5879.399,"text":"說那個年輕人要把他收容 不能讓他回去那法官 法院 看了看了說這沒什麼問題這讓他回去怎麼有什麼問題你們肉發生過這個 有爭執過嗎"},{"start":5884.775,"end":5901.25,"text":"報告委員這的確是實務上發生的事情因為少年法庭的法官他的看點他是以輔導跟保護少年沒錯我們這邊是犯罪偵查是想要溯源再去找到成年人所以觀念上是不一樣的"},{"start":5902.051,"end":5921.977,"text":"那可能少年法庭的法官會認為這個少年就像大家講的免洗塊他本身還好可能因為家境清寒等等他想說這個回去就好了可是這個就會影響到後面偵查的作為他一去可能又被成年人拉走了或被恐嚇了叫他不能講話"},{"start":5923.177,"end":5949.624,"text":"他可能一回去之後在法院門口接他了是詐騙集團的律師 對對吧 對所以我們其實也是在保護他我們希望說暫時不要讓他在外面遊蕩又被這些成人又帶走了好 那所以我請問一下廳長在實務上 是如果這個檢察官他通知這個法官說那個你不要幫他"},{"start":5950.783,"end":5953.948,"text":"這個時候 實務上這個時候我們的法官一般會做什麼歡迎"},{"start":5967.191,"end":5984.648,"text":"包括雖然法官個案決定說不收容是審判核心但現在我們經過這樣的一個聯繫會議跟我們開的研討會跟促進目前用三個方案法官其實有很多資料可以收容保護性收容少年也就是說"},{"start":5985.649,"end":6010.501,"text":"警察加強續名載名這個他加入這個共犯的詐團檢察官又聲明他有篡證以及去維護那這個時候第三個我們知道這些詐團車手的孩子很少回家後住在旅館所以即以這樣我們照事法26條絕對符合收容那個叫保護性收容還篡證收容"},{"start":6012.842,"end":6030.703,"text":"以及再回到詐團的收容所以現在的比例比較高有收容起來那這個需要大家一起合作如果這個資料不太夠法官會用保護性比較多的就把它釋放就是說所謂責護所以目前有這樣的促進我們"},{"start":6033.586,"end":6052.052,"text":"邵家廷在法官的在職研習我們都親自到場開課去對這些蒐集資料分析促進法官那檢察官也有善意的回應我們得到了很多紀錄他們就這個部分也會加強請法官去考慮孩子篡證回到詐團很好謝謝廷長你告訴我這個社會都有聽到詐團也有聽到"},{"start":6061.357,"end":6069.742,"text":"這很關鍵喔 集團也聽到了就是說這個年輕人現在我們這個少年法庭這裡的法官要不要收容他你跟我說的一點最重要的就是說這個年輕人有沒有固定的住所就是說他可能離家出走 很久了家人可能也要隔代教養阿嬤也不知道這個年輕人他們孫子跑去哪裡"},{"start":6090.698,"end":6108.765,"text":"還可以帶中部跑去 跑來台北帶東部跑去台北 帶南部跑去台北要創這個詐騙集團嘛所以這個時候法官在實務上他就有可能把他收容了就是說現在有這樣的一個機制好 那我請問一下這個次長剛剛廳長這樣說你有沒有放心或是你也了解說會開始"},{"start":6116.338,"end":6129.942,"text":"還是有這個改變是 的確市法院廳長這邊是非常非常的支持我們這一項的一個協商的會議的運作但是這個部分我們認為老實講我們還要觀察"},{"start":6132.583,"end":6153.981,"text":"因為真的是 這是少年法庭法官的核心的工作有時候有些法官可能會跟我們的希望有點落差但是我們會持續的溝通跟這些法院的來聯繫啦希望能夠得到最好的結果是啦 因為也怕說這樣以後這裡的法官回到這裡我看都會收容這樣也不對有時候要變成這個"},{"start":6161.823,"end":6167.205,"text":"把他綁起來 到時候檢測官又不高興 怎麼又有一些糾紛在內所以法官說開去跟收容啦 也有可能會過頭去所以這樣的一個機制 你們定期有在檢討那剛剛提到這個 我覺得這個少年 相關的人他們被詢問啦 叫來問 還是這個時間點啦"},{"start":6187.355,"end":6189.723,"text":"就是說喪心 喪毫 這時間點現在還沒有一個好的共識就對了"},{"start":6195.1,"end":6220.247,"text":"是不是要說 就是你們的法務部你們說你們有第三個困境嘛這個共犯取證的時機的機制嘛對 因為現在規定就是我們檢察官不能碰就是說這個案子在警察問完以後就要在24小時內護送到少年法庭檢察官是不能碰所以我們要透過一個協商可能筆錄 我們筆錄啦或者是一些資訊 共享"},{"start":6222.328,"end":6239.079,"text":"警察問你要筆錄的給你嗎警察的筆錄我們可以拿到即時拿到 對即時拿到 然後同步就到法院去了法院問完以後我們希望能夠同時就取得在少年法庭的筆錄這塊法院現在有什麼問題嗎沒有問題"},{"start":6242.984,"end":6257.677,"text":"報告委員沒有問題因為成立了兩邊的一個緊急聯繫窗口至少都紀錄科長隨時都on call那所以這個筆錄完法官馬上核定可以先傳真密封再補正式的公文都沒有問題因為剛才這個吳宗憲"},{"start":6261.861,"end":6274.252,"text":"檢察官啦 不是 委員啦 他才做檢察官嘛他說有時候在這個偵查的技巧啦 細節的部分喔他意思好像是說 發光到不發動盲唇 檢測光想要盲的那個味覺啦這 廳長你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":6283.102,"end":6295.815,"text":"確實在偵查實務上有一個指揮檢察官他就所有可能的情資他掌握的非常詳細那這些詳細資料都是密封的在檢察官那邊那我們"},{"start":6297.717,"end":6303.939,"text":"少年法官是依據現場收證的資料來去問但是我們現在都會去注意這個共患 詐團共患所以會讓少年再多我們再多問他就在這個共患裡面他做什麼 什麼角色所以才會有很多地檢"},{"start":6317.403,"end":6333.829,"text":"跟法院聯合起來說檢察官如果你有更細部要我們問的你可以密封送過來或傳真過來那我們的窗口拿到我們的法官願意在這個即時合法性詢問的程序跟實體詢問一起詢問接著筆錄會送給你但那個剛剛大委員吳委員是說"},{"start":6341.211,"end":6350.414,"text":"檢察官的去找出溯源跟法官不太一樣他是有這樣的說明所以現在這個機制也有啦就是說檢察官希望這個法官道問什麼問題這個機制現在也有嗎 次長我們已經有這個機制我們也在持續的觀察說是不是推行的很順利我們在持續關注所以你們這個定期檢討的這個機制"},{"start":6367.799,"end":6380.55,"text":"就繼續推下去 年輕人有他們的管理這有時候就是兩邊 大家多溝通多協調才能這個案子辦下去會比較順利好 謝謝謝謝王宜川委員詢問 接下來請沈發慧委員詢問"},{"start":6401.515,"end":6419.084,"text":"主席我們是不是先請廳長中廳長我們也請法務部徐次長委員好我請你們兩位上來後面大概就這麼多人上來這個 君榮壯盛"},{"start":6422.587,"end":6444.573,"text":"我想事實上今天主席有安排這個主題我們看到前面有幾位委員大家其實大概最關鍵的一些點剛才都已經有問過了但是其實每一個委員他站的角度跟他對於解決這個問題的方法的視角其實不太一樣"},{"start":6448.396,"end":6469.152,"text":"但是其實這一切所有這些現在這些問題大概我們現在整個法治體系它就是我們按照我們這個少年事件處理法這樣子的一個法治體系這個法治體系它就是本身它就在第三條裡面它就規定有關少年處罰"},{"start":6470.493,"end":6484.962,"text":"他把這個少年的部分分成處罰的少年那進入刑罰的時間那另外有曝險的少年把分流了那分流之後在第18條他就直接就是讓這個有關於處罰少年的時間就直接由少年"},{"start":6485.862,"end":6510.796,"text":"由少年法院來移送這個是這個體制設計本身就是這樣子那當初設計的體制它也是符合這個也是符合兒童權益公約的相關一些保護那時候設想就是說那就這樣成人就走這一條路少年就走這一條路看起來是一個非常清楚的一個設定但是問題是現在整個犯罪的形態"},{"start":6512.417,"end":6538.851,"text":"的這種組織化 網路化包括剛才這些委員大家所質詢關心的這些相關的這些詐欺案件它常常就是它就是這種所謂的成少共犯的這種結構幾乎變成常態那也因為這樣子一個案件它的這個成少共犯變成常態所以導致我們原本設計的少年事件處理法的這樣子的架構體系在運作上面"},{"start":6539.771,"end":6561.709,"text":"你如果站在司法院的立場我們少年事件處理法本來我們少年事件處理法開宗明義第一條就講說我們為什麼要這樣子分流為什麼要這樣做就是為了要健全為了保障少年健全的自我成長就是本來他就是要調整他的成長環境角質他的性格這是少事法本身的宗旨跟目標那檢察對檢察官來講"},{"start":6564.231,"end":6581.071,"text":"這個偵查犯罪這個才是他的重要目標所以會導致像剛剛有不同委員就認為說你們少年法院法官你們偵查技巧你們根本就無法發現真實無法把犯罪偵破大概是這個意思他講的白話就是說"},{"start":6581.812,"end":6597.462,"text":"你們這個少年法院你們的法官沒有我們檢察官在偵查犯罪事實你們沒有那個技巧啦所以常常導致暗中出貢的結果結果你們問過了之後我們再過來再到檢察官來的時候我們已經問不出來了等等諸多這樣子的講法但是當回頭來問說那要怎麼解決"},{"start":6603.911,"end":6620.058,"text":"其實在現有的架構除非你去修改少年事件處理法否則在現有的架構就是這樣子啊你說少年 只要是少年犯罪你就必須要移送少年法庭啊不能說我少年事件不移送少年法庭先讓檢察官徵詢徵詢完了之後再移送少年法庭不行嘛現有體制裡面不行啊"},{"start":6621.124,"end":6648.711,"text":"那過去確實但在實務上確實是是造成一些問題造成這個檢察官也好司法警察也好對於這個這個這個整個在在偵辦過程中必須要依照少年事件處理法來先移送少年法庭這件事情認為造成了蠻多實務上面的問題那這些問題剛才我聽到廳長在這個回答陳培育文的時候也講得非常清楚幾個問題你們都事實上這在最近都建立了"},{"start":6649.511,"end":6668.587,"text":"相關的因應的機制希望能夠解決這個問題我覺得這個就是說你在現有的體制之下你在現有的架構之下你不可能變更現有的架構之下我們要來做調整來解決現在目前我們這個檢察官我們司法警察的實務上面"},{"start":6669.773,"end":6679.132,"text":"大家的這些困境就是建立一些機制來解決至於這個機制能不能完美的解決讓檢察官覺得說以後我辦案我就不會碰到這個問題"},{"start":6680.734,"end":6705.472,"text":"或者是能不能這樣完美的解決還不知道 對不對市長你剛剛講的是說你也對這個機制是不是能夠能夠順利的解決這些問題你其實也沒有把握 對不對對 因為這畢竟是法官的核心的審判工作所以我們是持續關注我們也會把我們觀察所得就會提供給司法院這邊來做參考對 我覺得"},{"start":6708.714,"end":6725.744,"text":"關鍵就在於說雙方我們法院這邊要理解現在檢察官在偵查犯罪的時候遇到的困難這些困難就是說我們在現在建立的這幾個機制之下我們要能夠理解"},{"start":6726.684,"end":6746.31,"text":"司法偵查他在目前需要的這些目前遇到的困境他需要解決的部分在實際上我們現在建立新的機制的運作裡面我們要盡快的我們要去檢視然後要定期化的去看還有什麼問題能夠需要進一步的解決這個我認為說這個沒有辦法這個在現有的"},{"start":6749.071,"end":6770.382,"text":"邵氏法的體制之下就是就是必須要這樣子院檢必須要這樣子的來配合這個沒辦法這個我們在這邊在開實質的專案會議還是一樣因為法治體制就是這樣子但是實際上我們所現在新建立這些機制希望能夠順利運行能夠讓降低現在目前偵查犯罪中間所因為邵氏法相關的規定所遇到的困境"},{"start":6771.766,"end":6787.428,"text":"好不好這個部分我覺得但是其實今天要講這個少年司法案件其實偵查跟審判只是最前端的一個部分而已這個當然現在說成少共犯的部分我們這個關心的"},{"start":6788.89,"end":6815.046,"text":"剛剛講的這一大堆都是偵查跟審判那其實還有後面幾個階段後面幾個階段那就更牽涉到那就不只是司法院法務部了你再來有矯正跟教輔矯正跟教輔他就有這個這個牽涉到教輔小組 矯正學校那這個再來還有你在這個矯正跟教輔之後他還有一個轉弦的復歸的一個機制這些都是事實上也都是很重要而且我覺得其實也都滿有一些檢討的空間"},{"start":6818.359,"end":6843.744,"text":"那這個剛才偵查的部分我講我們已經討論了那我接下來就就這個矯正跟教輔的實行的這個部分這個部分這個事實上我這邊引述的是你們自己的矯正期刊裡面的文章在第44節第二期裡面的一篇一個這個矯正學校的警衛隊長所寫的一篇文章他認為目前這個"},{"start":6846.044,"end":6872.195,"text":"少年矯正學校教育小組實施的困難他列舉了七大項包括學生法治觀念不足家庭功能異常 多風險家庭這個我列在簡報上面這部分我們是不是能夠研議我相信他所列舉的這些困難這個都是實際存在的因為他是第一線的這個矯正學校的工作同仁"},{"start":6873.513,"end":6882.169,"text":"那這些東西我們是不是能夠嚴厲來調整我們目前包括這個這個教輔小組的人力的配置行政降載的機制那另外"},{"start":6883.445,"end":6902.993,"text":"關於學生法治教育不足的這個問題這部分我覺得我們法務部要負擔其一部分的責任因為畢竟雖然這些角色學校他的課程設計的內容是由教育部來負責你由教育部來負責他就不可能把法治教育這部分做得完善有成效是 這個部分我們都有加強這個部分要加強那這個"},{"start":6907.28,"end":6926.626,"text":"這個我在這邊提一下就是說希望說我們這個有關這個矯正跟教輔的這個目前實行的困境我們法務部能夠面對最後一點時間我要特別來談這個可能是這個司法院這邊因為少事法是由我們這個司法院這邊來做主管機關"},{"start":6928.306,"end":6943.469,"text":"就是說我要談最後的轉型機制跟復歸的問題我們在矯正端 教育端這些社政端大家都反映其實不管怎麼樣在矯正之後矯正結束之後一出社會它馬上"},{"start":6944.656,"end":6964.699,"text":"就又同樣面對這種高風險的環境了這個一樣要這個因為這一出來一結束就馬上就缺乏這個支持的空窗期這個馬上就會出問題了那這個事實上在我們的我國的這個少年的這個司法制度裡面"},{"start":6965.99,"end":6988.646,"text":"其實所謂需保護性需要保護的需要保護需保護性它一定是一個核心的概念它是一個核心的概念但是在我們現在的少數法我們現在的這個少年司法的這個核心裡面我們的這個需保護性其實我們目前的法令法制體系裡面這個需保護性我們是缺乏可以操作的法律規範跟明確標準其實沒有在我們的法制體系裡面"},{"start":6989.426,"end":7017.505,"text":"我們是抽象的抽象的以個別的這個個案來談或這個個案少年他的狀況各方的狀況綜合評量他到底是不是具有這個這個需要保護性所以他其實就是因為沒有這個可操作的這個法律規範跟明確的標準所以導致你會常常會變得難以形成一致性那這部分我們要參我個人是參考日本日本他們的少年法治裡面他是把明確的把這個這個"},{"start":7019.827,"end":7041.748,"text":"這個虛保護性他把他整個系統性的評估整個做成一個可操作的一個可以一定具有法律約束性而且他可以預測的一個標準日本法是在把這個虛保護性做非常明確可操作的方式這部分我覺得司法院在"},{"start":7042.449,"end":7058.487,"text":"就我們的這個少年事件的這個處理法裡面我是希望說在這個法治體系裡面能夠把這個需保護性你要能夠有一個這個系統性的評估包括把它一些的變相它實際上"},{"start":7059.808,"end":7078.793,"text":"來作為他的評估的一些準則包括他是不是有這個家庭的知識他的情緒認知的發展落差包括他這個個案跟社區的連結包括他跟這個同儕學校同學的互動等等這些指標都應該要具體在法治化裡面具體的納入法治化裡面讓他變成"},{"start":7080.473,"end":7099.064,"text":"而且在法治上面不只是要描述他背景而已你就是因為用這些因素來作為他處遇未來的這些處遇的一些關鍵的依據就是按照我剛所講的這些指標這部分我覺得我們應該要納入法治化這部分如果到目前為止我們我國的法治在這個部分其實是抽象的"},{"start":7100,"end":7118.912,"text":"是沒有具有可操作性的這部分我希望司法院能夠在這個我們這個有關這個少年司法的這些相關的體制裡面能夠把這個虛保護性能夠把它具體化讓它變成具有法律的約束而且讓它具有可預測性好不好好 謝謝審判委員我們接下來請王宏威委員詢答"},{"start":7136.345,"end":7145.642,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請一下我們法務部次長還有我們衛福部次長請徐次長還有李次長委員好"},{"start":7149.311,"end":7165.843,"text":"好 兩位次長好先謝謝我們今天我們的召委排的專案報告非常重要但是我想今天也趁著兩位次長都在的時候有另外一個我自己身為女性非常關心的議題"},{"start":7166.784,"end":7190.844,"text":"因為就在前兩天我們包含我們有一些婦女團體以及醫療公會有做一個要求這個要求就是這一陣子其實頻頻傳出也就是所謂的狼醫這個其實我知道衛福部也非常的重視那麼我們有這種而且是民醫那麼"},{"start":7193.406,"end":7218.215,"text":"這一陣子出現了他沒有受懲戒而且繼續的去看診而且在我們很多的醫界也出現了很多的性平違規的事件我在這邊舉出來的1 2 3 4 5 6這些其實有包含他對護理師的強制猥褻而且是判刑確定但是現在仍然在任職"},{"start":7219.795,"end":7243.226,"text":"還有就是對護理師的性騷行為他也判刑確定但是沒有見到公開的資訊還有新北的陳姓醫生他誘導病患發生性行為遭到懲戒而且現在仍然任主管職務還有高雄曾姓醫師也是一樣對於通信軟體的業者病患"},{"start":7244.666,"end":7272.933,"text":"這個性騷那麼也是一樣經過懲處那他被停業但是呢他也付出了還有桃園的高興醫生也有性侵病患那現在呢進敘的他是被懲戒但是沒有定業他照常職業中還有台中的陳姓醫生他也是這個多次假借看診之名來性騷病患而且確認他有違規行為可是沒有任何的懲戒好"},{"start":7273.653,"end":7294.275,"text":"所以就說在我們的醫界太多這些的狼醫所以現在呢我剛才講在前兩天我們有一些婦團還有醫療公會要求要求我們能夠去揭露這些"},{"start":7295.556,"end":7316.975,"text":"這些狼醫如果他已經經懲戒他已經經懲戒有的當然還有要經過法院的判決我剛剛講的一些例子是法院判決判決之後他繼續在執業他繼續在執業在我們的資訊平台是找不到這些相關的資訊的找不到這些相關資訊所以"},{"start":7320,"end":7339.81,"text":"所以我們現在就說剛才講這些副團跟這些民團希望的是能夠比照律師法我們法務部律師法如果被懲戒的話就要公開所以所有的民眾可以透過這些資訊平台"},{"start":7340.931,"end":7361.763,"text":"能夠找得到比如說我今天我是婦女我要看哪一個婦科的醫生那我可不可以從這些資訊平台去找到他有沒有違反性平或者他有沒有性騷他甚至有沒有性侵的相關懲戒及司法的判決的記錄"},{"start":7364.765,"end":7384.551,"text":"所以我想請問一下先請我們衛福部能不能就是呂次長可以告訴我們因為我知道你們現在說要建置平台也有在揭露可是揭露的是不夠的揭露不夠所以在這個部分可不可以更能夠保障我們的這個婦女的就醫就醫的權益"},{"start":7386.992,"end":7401.539,"text":"然後最主要的是這些醫生這些已經有違反性平甚至被懲戒被判決確定的案子即便他在職業中但是能夠在這些資訊平台裡面被揭露"},{"start":7402.372,"end":7424.071,"text":"是非常感謝王宏偉委員對於這個問題的關心我想這個不光是整個這個女性我想是整個全台灣對這個部分我覺得是非常重要那其實醫師跟很多專業人員一樣他穿上白袍本身就應該有這個專業倫理那現在問題我想委員還有很多很多民眾都非常關心現在就是說有沒有揭露的機制對揭露揭露資訊要公開"},{"start":7425.132,"end":7443.496,"text":"的部分我們本部的醫事司其實已經有一個醫事人員涉性平事件的查詢平台那現在問題在於就是說他現在目前有上這個平台是必須有確定就是說違反刑法我們現在目前會上就是一定要司法判決你們現在是一定要司法判決做唯一的標準跟民眾現在目前就是說應該不只這樣現在就是說你只要有行政處分對 你有被懲戒你有被懲戒的紀錄因為你要被懲戒說實在也不容易對不對"},{"start":7453.979,"end":7477.981,"text":"報告委員現在目前是這樣我們現在目前有關懲戒的部分其實現在目前醫師是現在目前在研擬有一個很重要的重點在於就是說整個各個縣市他們那邊都有那個所謂醫師的那個專業自律就是醫師公會啦這個部分我們現在目前醫師是正在跟醫師公會那邊在緊密就是說就整個這一個尺度上面來說我們是不是應該在哪個程度應該也要來來羅利這個部分我們會趕快來進行相關的"},{"start":7480.503,"end":7501.267,"text":"那我想請問 你們本來說明年1月份你們會再做更新然後全面更新懲戒案件那你們明年1月份的更新還是以司法判決為依據嗎我們到目前為止是這樣就誠如剛剛我回覆委員所說就是說我們也知道民眾可能對這個還不滿意而且還覺得不夠放心"},{"start":7503.928,"end":7518.684,"text":"所以我们现在目前就那个尺度上面来说因为有的司法判决其实那个路很长那这在这个中间有的你看我刚刚讲的例子是他是多次他不是一次而已是没错所以可不可以以就是能够比照律师法"},{"start":7519.764,"end":7540.639,"text":"我待會提出來我會修法應該要提跟比照律師法如果律師有這樣的嚴格的限制那請問一下我去就醫我難道不應該有同樣的權益嗎其實報告委員我們現在目前確實有一個有一個方式我們也會嚴禮那個就類似律師法類似就你只要有這一個律師他們的工會那邊的一個相關的懲戒"},{"start":7542.06,"end":7561.813,"text":"所以你的意思是說律師被懲戒是被律師公會懲戒是公會 對不對這樣揭露嘛所以你的意思就是說你們也可以跟各地方縣市政府的醫師公會如果你被醫師公會懲戒我們常常都還說一一相護了對不對如果一一都護不了你這代表你確實這個行為也是"},{"start":7564.835,"end":7590.8,"text":"代表這個也沒有辦法一一相互所以 視望如果是醫師公會懲戒也應該放到你們這個資訊揭露平台嗎鮑偉我們現在目前正在嚴嶺正在朝這個就是說在朝這個方向我們現在正在嚴嶺所以是朝這個方向好 那另外你們有一個就是說醫生不同意還不用掛網是這樣嗎若醫師不同意你們就不能夠去揭露他"},{"start":7592.287,"end":7592.468,"text":"包圍應該 不會這樣吧"},{"start":7598.772,"end":7612.742,"text":"所以那你覺得這種如果有這樣因為這個我所得到的資料是你們不但是以依司法判決做唯一揭露的這個標準而且一是如果不同意你們還可以不用畫網這個是不是我想應該不會這樣不過是不是容我們回去我們跟144那邊確認之後那個會後好那我在這邊我在這邊做具體的要求第一個就是剛才你所講的方向第一個不能以司法判決做唯一的這個標準"},{"start":7628.374,"end":7646.606,"text":"他應該經過懲戒之後就應該資訊揭露 可以不可以我們會朝這個方向 好不好第二個不能因為醫師不同意你們就不掛網揭露可以不可以因為如果說醫師不同意你就不給他掛網我覺得也不合理 是不是"},{"start":7648.323,"end":7667.577,"text":"包委員 這個我們會朝這方向不過這個因為牽涉到整個揭露的比例原則我想這個應該不可能就是說醫師你犯了這個錯可是現在問題有一個現在就是說他到底查到什麼程度才能來揭露就是牽涉到比例原則的部分這個部分是不是可以容許因為老實說醫師我在這邊直接也具體的講因為我準備提案就修改我們的這個醫師法"},{"start":7674.462,"end":7692.651,"text":"這一施法就是比照律師法這也是我們的這些民團在談到就說應該就說像醫改會的這個就提出來因為台灣的律師的揭露就比較有制度就有制度應該去比照律師法"},{"start":7693.351,"end":7705.188,"text":"比照律師法去做一個比較透明的揭露所以我在這邊也會提出修正我希望我這個修正也能夠得到包含衛福部還有我們法務部的支持好不好"},{"start":7710.079,"end":7731.732,"text":"就是剛才你講的朝那個方向好不好好謝謝我們先謝謝呂部長時間暫停你可以請回最後一點點時間我請教一下我們的徐次長就是我們現在普發現金一萬塊其實很多民眾都拿到了不管他是用登記的或者在用ATM的方式"},{"start":7732.432,"end":7739.797,"text":"那麼都拿到了但是也確實出現了很多的詐騙而且其實對於一些被詐騙的民眾來講我覺得實在是很淒慘他不過就要領一萬塊然後他就被騙一百萬這實在是不符合比例原則"},{"start":7749.743,"end":7777.367,"text":"所以在這個普發現金的這個詐騙的部分你們還有沒有什麼樣的精進的方式不要因為我們這個本來是德政我們就是希望來幫助人民就沒想到反而他因此而被詐騙損失慘重所以在這個普發現金詐騙的部分你們現在還有沒有什麼精進的比如說要跟包含跟這個警政署或者是跟這個訴發部等等還有沒有些什麼要精進的措施"},{"start":7778.12,"end":7798.331,"text":"好 謝謝委員那台高檢在14年9月17號就已經邀集邀集的地檢還有刑事警察局還有調查局我們有召開一個防治及查緝詐欺集團普發現金詐騙研商會議那台高檢跟調查局都也通令所有的檢查調查機關加強查緝我想"},{"start":7798.911,"end":7815.146,"text":"在查緝面的話我們是不管是司法警察或者是地檢署的檢察官是全員都動起來只要有線索我們會馬上盡速的來查辦那我們在官網裡面也有做專區來有一個QA就回答民眾的一個查詢那這個"},{"start":7816.682,"end":7822.264,"text":"委員也都知道這個詐騙集團就是這樣它一直變形我們不斷的宣導你剛講9月17號這個是還沒發因為我們是11月7號才開始所以也就是說即便我們早兩個月大家開會做成會議記錄但是到了民眾他還是會被騙還是會被這些假的檢警假的這些釣魚訊息在詐騙他"},{"start":7843.152,"end":7856.398,"text":"所以我們在這一部分可能就是說他尤其地方像我自己當議員的時候我都盡量會去參加我們的這些李玲的工作彙報警察一定比如說警察一定會比如說我這陣子有什麼方案比如說你到了這個快要過年一定有那個春安嘛然後你這個普發現金我一定早早就告訴你"},{"start":7866.222,"end":7882.351,"text":"這普發現金只有這兩種途徑你千萬不要再多拿錢出來一定是就是警察是很辛苦我知道警察每次在那邊宣導我也陪他們拍照片拿宣傳單等等之類的但是我覺得我們還是不希望說變成我們一個普發現金變成詐騙這些集團有上下其手的可能性好不好我們也希望是這樣"},{"start":7890.796,"end":7896.821,"text":"好不好這部分我們打詐是永遠永遠是不能夠攜帶的好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王宏國委員接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請吳世堯委員詢答"},{"start":7918.364,"end":7936.011,"text":"謝謝主席有關今天排定的主題我在上週的會議我大概都提出相關的質詢那我今天有另外一個緊急事態想要質詢所以除了請我們的中廳長那我也請司法院的吳廳長中廳長還有司法行政的吳廳長"},{"start":7939.349,"end":7957.001,"text":"因為是緊急事態所以很緊急委員好我要透過今天的質詢當然主席也在我們一起要來針對在野黨又發動了一個違憲惡修是惡中之惡就是這一次是鎖定司法院組織法要修"},{"start":7958.022,"end":7976.58,"text":"這就是轄院報復再加一就是霸凌司法院再加一這真的是政治的黑手公然深入司法行政的緊急事態所以這叫做立院作亂 司院有事我們要好好來防範 下一頁"},{"start":7977.682,"end":8005.011,"text":"所謂的轄院報復就是立法院的惡性循環不合倡議就要把你的司法院的預算凍結或大刪這不是吳斯堯說的是黃國昌立委在今年的10月22號他就公然說他為了法院組織法修訂之後司法院不怕幫負責任的提出一個法庭直播的實施辦法"},{"start":8006.071,"end":8033.461,"text":"黃國昌不滿不合倡議他又揚言要大幅的刪減刪減或凍結司法院的預算惡性循環又來了而不合倡議呢這個黃國昌委員又開始放話就要修到他滿意我們眼前碰到的除了我們的法庭直播辦法可能被退回改由立法院來"},{"start":8034.881,"end":8048.322,"text":"加注意見或是直接要審下一步呢就是除了法院組織法之外現在把手伸到司法院組織法換言之以後司法院院會大小事情立法院都要管都能管"},{"start":8049.76,"end":8068.576,"text":"這已經違反了立法院職權法 職權刑事法62條的規定如果各院紀之間有違反抵觸法律的行政命令等等立法院能夠做的是要求更正或廢止但立法院沒有越組太刨來實質審查的權利這是憲法的紅線"},{"start":8073.8,"end":8093.396,"text":"所以緊急事態來了 除了預算又被為難現在甚至就是立法院來取代司法院的院會下頁這個立法院亂了套 該審的不審不該審的拼命要把政治力來擴大作亂"},{"start":8095.038,"end":8113.897,"text":"這個事情的緣由就是法院組織法 廳長在這裡喔你們也循程序花了三個月的時間也循公告施行然後也送到立法院就是黃國昌近乎二讀立法院零討論直接表決的法院組織法"},{"start":8114.978,"end":8138.99,"text":"立法院應當在委員會好好審查有任何意見修入法裡面而不是立法院不討論直接坐直升機坐特快車還逼你們三個月上路然後你們之後依法律的授權來訂定實施辦法他現在反而要來審查實施辦法了我說這就是該審的不審不該審的"},{"start":8141.536,"end":8153.438,"text":"不只要審而且還要鉅細靡遺的為難你們廷長你有看過這種狀況嗎司法行政被凌駕成這樣就這個部分你們有什麼防範"},{"start":8157.881,"end":8182.507,"text":"報告委員是就是說因為修正法律是立法院的職權所以在法院組織法有關公開播送的這個條文修正通過那當然司法院必須要遵照這個法律來做後續的這個執行的程序所以有關執行的程序的部分因為我們有預見到其實很多的法律專家都提出說一旦"},{"start":8183.467,"end":8204.596,"text":"法庭公開播送之後會有一些影響到審判公正的疑慮還有人權的疑慮包括訴訟參與者的隱私權的一些相關的疑慮所以我們也在法律院組織法的一個授權的範圍內要去訂立一個適當的公播方式可以來避免這樣子一個疑慮讓這個公播能夠順利的上路"},{"start":8208.117,"end":8236.208,"text":"那达到他原本希望达到的目的让公播达到透明公开的效用而不是造成舆论公省的负面效益你们在做的就是这个播放嘛是的所以我们会在才会定义这个实施办法那这个办法里头有关公播的时程也是认为说因为公播刚上路加上国外有一些国家我们都参照国际的经验避免特写对不对然后国民法官不准拍对不对好关键在下一页"},{"start":8237.128,"end":8258.807,"text":"下一頁喔在下一頁有關法庭直播的Live或是Delay Live哪裡有抵犯法律呢在朝野協商的時候黃國昌兩度一次在黨團協商一次在朝野協商他都說公開播送可以用Live也有Delay Live啊他自己說的"},{"start":8259.967,"end":8280.801,"text":"羅志強委員代表國民黨團在協商的時候他也說啊延遲直播delay life也是你們司法院可以參酌採納的手法嘛所以為了保障司法人權避免這些訴訟當事人的隱私被侵犯被肉搜更避免這個案子在審查的過程被輿論公審"},{"start":8283.102,"end":8309.443,"text":"來影響法官的心證你們是撥破網送出實施辦法而完全沒有抵觸法律啊法律立法者的緣由在歷次雖然委員會都沒有討論啊在少少的朝野協商表達意見的時候藍白的委員就已經同意delay life嘛所以現在轄院報復牽怒於你們不過是他們自己自己打臉自己然後"},{"start":8311.451,"end":8331.99,"text":"拉不下臉下不了台所以說呢夏業這是我們上週討論的主題也就是說法院組織法草率的禁服惡毒通過立法院該審而不審那現在要把手伸到這個實施辦法要退回要求更正那他下一步要做的事情是什麼呢夏業"},{"start":8333.43,"end":8353.842,"text":"非常嚴重緊急事態我也跟朝委報告現在民眾黨提出來的司法院組織法17條修正還有增訂17條之一就是公然把立法院的審查權政治的黑手伸到司法院的院會裡面去了"},{"start":8355.319,"end":8374.06,"text":"17条是把组织的部分完全用政治力来把持17条之一的增订是把所有你们司法院院会会议规则审定的行政命令强制要求送到立法院可以进行变更也就是立法院要来审司法院的内规简单讲"},{"start":8375.196,"end":8396.853,"text":"太可怕了立法院可以大到這樣嗎今天把手伸到司法院的院會明天就把手伸到行政院的院會今天把手要求司法院院會的組成要達到國民黨對不起這是民眾黨要的雖然國民黨民眾黨是一個黨了啦"},{"start":8398.582,"end":8416.969,"text":"達到這種藍白要的透過組織惡意的修法還要讓這些獨立審判的法官被迫要承擔政治責任因為把首長制改成合一制然後把這些法官變成這個司法院院會的當然成員這太可怕了"},{"start":8420.546,"end":8445.16,"text":"今天他立法院這樣對於司法院要求司法院院會的組成明天就要求行政院院會的組成今天要求司法院院會通過的所有的法律你們的執法相關的規範一定要強制送立法院來審查明天就要求行政院院會卓院長通過的任何議案都要先送立法院否則你行政院院會不能開或是開不成"},{"start":8446.503,"end":8462.085,"text":"這太可怕了所以針對司法院組織法第17條以立法權侵害行政權又是違憲了侵犯權力分立的原則跟制衡而且把首長制改成合一制就侵犯了司法院院長的權責"},{"start":8463.567,"end":8480.605,"text":"以及他要求增加法官代表成为司法院院会的当然成员让受监督者享有司法的行政权法官某种程度也被迫要承担政治决策的责任针对这17条来听一下你觉得呢是不是紧急事态啊"},{"start":8482.269,"end":8508.61,"text":"謝謝委員因為司法院確實因為院長是總統提名立法院同意的所以他是一個首長制他必須要對司法院的政治來負責政策的成敗負責對要負政策政治責任是院長我們看到這次的提案確實是有就等同是把司法院的院會變成一個合議機關那由合議的方式來做成司法院的一些重要的政策那本來司法院院會只是一個諮詢機關而已那變成合議機關"},{"start":8511.161,"end":8537.159,"text":"以後他新天來指名要法官代表成為院會成員哪一天他可能又加碼變成說這些法官代表成為司法院院會列席人員成員必須受立法院同意搞不好也會這樣對不對因為我們現在法官的職責憲法上的權利做審判那並不是對國家的政策責任負責而且法官是終身子也不能夠因為政治的懲罰而下台"},{"start":8537.819,"end":8552.986,"text":"沒有錯所以說司法院組織法17條它要破壞司法院院會的組成又危險政治的黑手不演了深入司法行政而下一個要跟您探討的是17條之一的修正"},{"start":8554.236,"end":8578.971,"text":"這就是法庭直播黃國昌自己在委員會快轉然後草率通過之後現在又把該審的法案不審現在要審你們的實施辦法那他現在實隨之謂 轄院報復再加一以後所有的司法院所有的命令 規章你們的權利立法院都要越組帶跑了"},{"start":8580.7,"end":8603.675,"text":"然後就立法院職權行使法62條的規範如果任何單位的執法有抵觸母法才可以退回才可以要求你們更正但不是立法院自己來改所以說該審的不審法案不審委員會不開會不討論然後現在要連你們的行政命令都要管來就這個17條之一的增修以後你們真的"},{"start":8611.499,"end":8615.925,"text":"我真的不知道這個緊急事態怎麼解決喊話一下吧 廳長"},{"start":8617.876,"end":8642.712,"text":"其实司法院会通过很多细节性的一般性的一些不管是职权命令或者是经由国会授权的授权命令那这些命令都是比较一般性而且有时候是有需有时效性的那如果说这些授权命令全部要送立法院进行更正目前是要由立法院备查备查改审查而且退回便直接改"},{"start":8643.152,"end":8670.082,"text":"那如果立法院进行把内容变更的话那就会变成说是由立法院替司法院定立法规命令但是由这个司法院来做执行那这可能会造成权责这有没有违宪那我们认为这是违反这当然违反宪法的权利分立而且立法院该审的不审自己法案委员会不审直接表决然后来管这些执法法律授权的执法实施办法的规定"},{"start":8671.022,"end":8686.152,"text":"這真的是全套鬼揍海料料而且全部本末倒置啊所以你們現在針對這個惡法因為剛排入這個議程你們要全力的去遊說除了要遊說我們各黨的委員我還是相信啊"},{"start":8687.148,"end":8715.953,"text":"在野的委員應該還是有部分有良知的吧難道大家都要被黃國昌這樣子來出賣這樣子來操弄作為黃國昌轄院報復司法的棋子嗎你們要強力來遊說所有不分黨派的立委因為捍衛憲法不是只有執政黨的事是所有跨黨派委員的事以及你們也要向法界發聲向社會發聲司法院不能再被霸凌了"},{"start":8716.793,"end":8739.507,"text":"司法院不能再這樣以後司法院院會立法院來管如果司法院低頭了未來十帥之位行政院院會就是下一個考試院院會就是下一個立法院再大也不能比憲法大真的而且我要批判立法院該審的不審不該審的要拿來審"},{"start":8741.406,"end":8757.676,"text":"為什麼要禁賦二讀我也很擔心司法院組織法就像當初法庭直播的法院組織法一樣禁賦二讀委員會沒有辦法討論我們這麼專業的教委莊瑞雄法律專家他沒有辦法來發表他的意見因為從法案提出到最後做特快車只有表決意圖"},{"start":8759.799,"end":8782.698,"text":"執政黨少數黨連發聲論述的機會都沒有所以趕快向社會發聲尋求法界所有人員的力量來遊說這些讓立法院能夠三思後行來 您補充謝謝委員事實上包括這次提案的理由裡頭有提到美國的這個US Code它完全複解了"},{"start":8784.219,"end":8808.697,"text":"对对因为我们有去检索美国的制度而且美国国会也没有权利去直接修改最高法院所定义规则的内容对它充其量也只能将它退回而不能够进行修改所以这部分的可能是误解了这个国外的规定所以我们司法法制委会很天才有留学德国的汪小林委员但是却把德国的制度乱讲一通有留学德国的"},{"start":8810.399,"end":8817.928,"text":"黃國昌主席 對不起有留學美國的黃國昌主席卻對美國的憲政運作國會運作這麼的狀況外"},{"start":8823.479,"end":8844.749,"text":"然後還拿 我也看了他的修法理由把美國國會只有否決權 而且那是延遲宣告的權利不是可以直接拿來立法院 來審司法院的內規真的是 這策略不像是卡丁片一樣啊留學美國 留到哪裡去了 美國的制度都不懂"},{"start":8845.74,"end":8862.251,"text":"所以我再一次今天我緊急事態來做這個質詢我也相信我們召委會全力來協助我們一起來捍衛立法院不要再霸凌其他的憲政機關了立法院再大也不能讓黃國昌這樣惡搞不好意思超過時間謝謝主席"},{"start":8864.007,"end":8891.658,"text":"好 謝謝吳士耀委員的詢答那個確實是很嚴肅的問題法規命令各個院院紀之間尤其是每一個院該做出怎麼樣的法規命令當然它有一個主體性那做出來以後送立法院被查立法院當然可以改審查案但是審查到最後的結果其實是要求變更或者說去廢止但是從立法院進行去做一個變更"},{"start":8893.659,"end":8907.984,"text":"這個就非常嚴肅的事情了那變成說有點越竹帶袍畢竟法規命令不是立法院在用而是這個發布的一個主體在用那卻應該是好好來做一個盛事接下來我們請賴世保委員賴世保委員不在賴世保委員林月琴委員詢答"},{"start":8929.425,"end":8935.031,"text":"主席 麻煩我們的警政署的副局長蕭副局長委員好副局長早"},{"start":8944.642,"end":8973.553,"text":"那今天討論那個承受共犯的偵辦的困境這個問題在前次的邵氏法移送前的程序修正時就已經討論過非常多次那近來大家詐騙犯罪越來越高的時候再度讓相關程序實務運作受到關注我知道你們已經開過很多次會議了那也建立了連續窗口跟協調機制這是很大的突破值得肯定"},{"start":8974.403,"end":9002.564,"text":"不過副局長我一直很關心耳騷所以今天還是來問就是說近年耳騷犯罪的主要類型跟趨勢你這邊是不是有掌握跟委員報告那我們所查詢的資料就是加入幫派最多就是到了各個公開場所來做注視那第二個就是詐欺那為什麼詐欺會增加跟委員報告"},{"start":9004.837,"end":9020.729,"text":"當詐欺車手不需要技術所以一個車手頭他底下有五個車手一個被抓了再找一個高中生來替補所以這個是你看我們的少子化我們的少年已經增加了很多但是我們的"},{"start":9022.435,"end":9044.623,"text":"共犯 承受共犯這一部分對 的確像陳儒副局長講的就是我們的兒少犯罪的那個現象從行政警察局提供的的確兒少犯罪以詐欺案件為最大宗這也逐漸改變原本臨時起義的那個犯罪樣態轉向組織化跟預謀行動的一個趨勢針對這樣的犯罪趨勢的變化就有學者指出說"},{"start":9052.165,"end":9076.795,"text":"打詐必須從根源來著手而且少年的車手或成員不應該事實上是重點關鍵在於打擊犯罪集團跟組織或者是黑幫更建議說應該要參考日本的暴力團的對策法修正我們的組織犯罪條例加重原本的刑責那副市長你同意這樣的看法或建議嗎"},{"start":9078.21,"end":9107.525,"text":"我們也是一直朝這個方向像我們現在的組織犯罪我們有了這個工具所以我們才有辦法去執法我就簡單舉個例像現在竹聯幫幫主一直從缺我們有這樣的工具現在誰承認他是竹聯幫幫主我們馬上報請指揮來做逮捕謝謝布局長我認為這真的才是真正的根本之道才不會錯置資源在所謂的少年免洗快的一個工具身上"},{"start":9107.905,"end":9136.059,"text":"而忽略背後的一個犯罪組織為什麼這樣提呢其實預防二哨犯罪方案當中在你們在今年的年初的話政院也是拍板定案說四年預計投入76億的在預防二哨犯罪方案裡邊我相信警政署作為方案的幕僚機關那我認為副局長應該非常清楚知道整個方案的具體的措施跟行動策略"},{"start":9136.926,"end":9151.185,"text":"可是在一二級的預防目標下就有規劃行動方案是針對於幫派組織吸收少年的具體措施但我非常好奇的是既然有這樣的工具那到底足不足夠是否可以請我們的副局長"},{"start":9152.106,"end":9180.005,"text":"跟警政署這邊提供我目前這些具體的實際成效因為我現在目前沒有看到就你們部縣的調查成效是什麼明策略管的情形是怎麼樣組織犯罪的一個防制的條例定罪的狀況是什麼還有追蹤輔導成效再麻煩把這些相關數據提供給我為什麼要這樣子提呢就是想來請教副局長就是什麼是需保護性如何調查跟評估"},{"start":9182.346,"end":9207.947,"text":"那區域保護站在對兒少的保護這一部分這是就是司法的一個宗旨那站在警察是在執法那尤其在打詐這一部分警察的主責是在試詐所以最近你可以從電視來看到警察非常多的一個宣導那也有一定的成效那對兒少的保護這一部分我們是這時候也是跟"},{"start":9209.068,"end":9229.798,"text":"教育部跟各級的學校共同來努力我這樣問我不是在考試或說教只是針對少年輔導的處遇的問題恐怕都來自我們的少事法的第三條第二項的條文大家是不是對這條文的理解跟判斷落差而來"},{"start":9230.84,"end":9243.855,"text":"為什麼這樣提因為上週五出爐的監察院的報告明確指出正因為警方跟少府會過度拘泥於曝險行為的一個定義的法條文字因為這邊有寫一個無證當理由經常"},{"start":9247.239,"end":9259.331,"text":"因為這個經常這個兩次的事少府會認為這是單一事件他沒有調閱其他的資料的時候就會覺得沒有經常所以就不認為是需要保護性因為他的第二項很明確的講是說你看到這一項裡邊的"},{"start":9262.914,"end":9284.649,"text":"第二款的提出來的這些相關的那要依少年的性格跟成長經驗那你就要去各方去調閱相關比如需要各個單位來提供這樣的資料所以就很容易忽略那因為這樣子忽略它的高風險的徵兆就會錯失我覺得及早介入輔導的一個機會那我就來續問為什麼這樣談因為這個這張圖我已經拿來問"},{"start":9292.779,"end":9310.159,"text":"第三次了每次警政署的說法都不同第一次拿出來的時候我順便問了少府會的人力是否充足那署長說不夠可是當天的專案報告的書面報告是寫充足的第二次拿出來的時候強調缺乏公案合作的機率"},{"start":9311.341,"end":9326.58,"text":"我當時也以持有微量三四級毒品的行為當成案例希望檢證署能夠能夠延商跟相關機關能夠延商修正可是這次就沒有收到任何的回覆的資料給我了"},{"start":9327.352,"end":9346.858,"text":"那這次剛好我們的監察院調查報告又出來指出警方缺乏對曝險行為的統一收案標準也欠缺需保護性的評估標準我認為這就是關鍵除了會直接影響社安網的服務轉弦的系統外同樣也是今天陳紹公案偵辦"},{"start":9348.178,"end":9361.888,"text":"困境的核心所在所以在這邊我要提出三點請我覺得警政署這邊要來處理的是那警政署提供預防少年兒少犯罪方案的具體措施的成效"},{"start":9362.941,"end":9387.503,"text":"並與法務部共同來針對幫派吸收少年犯罪的防治機制來研擬更積極的策略這次不要今天講了然後我們後來沒有收到這相關的資料第二警警政署競速建立少婦會我們希望要有個標準化的風險評估工具才可以跟其他的相關單位去收整你要的東西否則就很容易不被認為經常"},{"start":9388.624,"end":9418.176,"text":"所以单一事件而错失了及早介入的所以同一个案的服务流程跟资料共享机制这个希望你们要建立来加强教育训练跟我们的服务敏感度来充实我们的辅导量能跟专业性最后就是请警政署能够重新的检讨少舞会的组织的工作内容以及其他网络单位共案的合作方式那我不知道副局长这个在两周内可以提出书面回复吗"},{"start":9419.031,"end":9437.17,"text":"可以好 謝謝好 謝謝林月琴委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭政權委員鄭政權委員鄭政權委員不在請施堯委員來代理一下"},{"start":9442.742,"end":9451.527,"text":"非常榮幸今生可以來代理莊瑞雄主持司法法治委員會好 下一位有請我們的召委莊委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請我們司法院總廳長還有法務部徐政次教育部我們這個今天是副署長委員好衛福部女政次委員好"},{"start":9470.866,"end":9473.729,"text":"行政警察局蕭副局長 請上來一下"},{"start":9476.701,"end":9500.867,"text":"我想各位今天我們今天討論安排這樣的一個專報那其實在整個立法院還沒有整個總預算這個是預算會期還沒有付的情況之下那減少了一些政治的一個紛擾大家來做理性的一個討論那我想針對上個禮拜因為大家看到檢察院也針對針對"},{"start":9503.783,"end":9520.935,"text":"這個整個新北這樣的一個少年做出了一份調查報告就是提到就是說整個司法警政 社政跟教育體系到底是哪一個環節這個漏接了"},{"start":9524.637,"end":9545.484,"text":"那司法跟各縣市政府稍後會應該扮演怎麼樣的一個角色,然後現行體制在橫向的一個聯繫跟修法後配套是不是有不足,這個權責機關是否能夠有效的改善這個既存的困境跟預防悲劇的一個發生。"},{"start":9546.464,"end":9564.576,"text":"這個案件本席去看了整個監察院的報告以後特別有感那我們今天在排這個整個少年事件處理法的一個專題的一個討論我相信這個整個監察院這樣的一個新北池巴少年案件把報告出來以後 揭開了很多現行體制"},{"start":9566.397,"end":9593.822,"text":"下的一個盲區那第一個就是警察端就是說明知道少年已經有這樣的一個曝險行為那你卻沒有按照少事法去啟動保護的一個評估那第二個就是說你整個少府會被這樣的監察官批評說你失靈了那你主責這個多協力的一個設計那實務上就變成說是互踢皮球那今天這麼多單位在這個地方"},{"start":9594.522,"end":9613.961,"text":"我就必須要來講說這個責任到底這個責任到最後如果不是丟給學校就丟給警察那主責單位到最後變成好像一個總機的一個角色另外法院跟行政整合之間的一個失效你按照整個少司法第42條的一個規定要採取保護處分之前可以跟個案的一個"},{"start":9619.226,"end":9636.52,"text":"這個整個單位的一個諮詢的也召開協調會但是現行這整個法官跟少年調查保護官並不理解整個社安這個網路的一個分工那沒有辦法去履行了該法的一個意旨校園之間跟外部脫節"},{"start":9637.981,"end":9654.914,"text":"你这个整个导师跟辅导端阿玛米达资源在什么地方那被害人的一个权益的部分你说按照整个四字八百零五号肯认少年事件应该给予被害人道庭陈述的一个机会并且在少事法三十六条之一有关的规定但是你整个"},{"start":9656.135,"end":9681.492,"text":"實際上事務上司法院也沒有去發展相關人員對被害人意見調查跟教育的一個訓練還有被害人轉介服務跟合作的一個機制所以我是要來請教就是說我們司法院 法務部 警政署甚至有衛福部 教育部就監察院提出這樣的一個疑慮你們是不是有什麼樣的一個改善計畫我覺得這是很重要 我先請衛福部"},{"start":9687.236,"end":9712.773,"text":"你們這時候 教育局主管你們最多了那你怎麼樣呢我們應該把話講清楚你組織機關你們是不是要重新去檢討你譬如說你到底是要回到社政體系來衛護部統籌或是你教育系統裡面來結緣校園的一個輔導或是說你行政院我一直在聽我接觸就是說不然你也行行政院層級少年輔導辦公室"},{"start":9714.714,"end":9724.092,"text":"涉及到整個成少共犯情資的一個整合來的喔你搞不好都變一個轉介中心了我不知道你衛福部你真正的一個想法到底是怎麼樣先請衛福部來做回答"},{"start":9725.765,"end":9734.31,"text":"全責的補分啦 全責的補分啦感謝委員 我那個三個重點啦第一 其實我們現在有這個社安網社安網其實最重要的就是要我們有四大策略 其中我們這個最重要的就是說 委員你剛才所說的有那個法醫 還有那個警政 警政署那邊還有我們法務部這邊的協調啦這第一重點 第二就是說我們現在目前的整個處理原則是要一組折多協力啦 就是說"},{"start":9753.721,"end":9760.323,"text":"你如果要在什麼該當該當什麼單位 你要出來 你要主責但是其他的單位 他來做配合但是我相信 剛才委員你所說的他們現在 我們的整個主責還有其他相關單位 那個整個協調機制我們確實還有一些應該要來進行的地方 最重要的當然啦"},{"start":9773.268,"end":9799.183,"text":"那衛務部其實你們也認為說主責機構還有涉及到整個橫向的一個聯繫的一個問題是啦 所以這個部分我們都要好好的去做一個檢討啦那另外我想請教那個徐次長就是說承哨共犯的偵查落差跟這二十四點鐘壓力這個問題其實存在的一個治安的一個問題跟涉及到整個重大偵查的一個幾個挑戰"},{"start":9800.163,"end":9812.009,"text":"第一個就是你偵查主體的分工不一致你現在成年犯你現在檢察官指揮來偵查那你為成年犯 少年法官來主導他也沒有授權指揮警察調查那你厭檢對於少年傳喚的態度你涉及到整個24小時分配的難題你譬如說"},{"start":9820.894,"end":9836.289,"text":"你當警察機關你查獲了陳少共犯的案件的時候你在記者寫章裡面你就要送往少年法庭同時又要顧及到陳年犯的偵查的一個程序你們像這個問題你們到底現在要怎麼樣去解決"},{"start":9837.096,"end":9857.764,"text":"報告委員這24小時不是檢察官使用的時間這個是司法警察跟法庭24小時的護送那當然那剛才中庭長這邊也解釋得非常清楚我們現在只能靠聯繫的機制我們檢察官可能有一些訊問的要點必須要追查的內容我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官"},{"start":9858.184,"end":9874.664,"text":"希望他們這個部分能夠幫我們來問如果我們取得有力的資料的話我們當然會跟司法警察會馬上同步就發動一些偵查的作為我想我們現在目前的法治底下我們能做的大概就是這個地方"},{"start":9875.965,"end":9900.935,"text":"這涉及到整個 當然涉及到整個少年那個保護啦但是問題就是這種成少的一個共犯裡面我看台中地院現在有發展的一個模式了嘛我看各地方我們有聯繫的平台也有一個機制在裡面運作說年輕的先叫來問問問之後取得共犯的一個結果立即去輸送少年法庭然後法官快速的去責負然後檢察官繼續去偵辦這樣的一個成年的一個共犯那我在想"},{"start":9905.132,"end":9920.519,"text":"這個整個議題會受到整個社會的一個矚目那其實最主要的就是說年輕人到底是要被懲罰那還是在整個邵氏法裡面還要涉及到我們必須要去保護他我們也必須要提出一個很嚴肅的一個問題"},{"start":9921.659,"end":9927.042,"text":"我們現在看到很多犯罪裡面你去看很多律師實際上聽起來講到律師這個我就覺得可悲了你在鞏固少年口供的時候甚至去施壓是不是我們也有可能少年在選任輔導人的時候也要經過法定代理人的一個同意所以我要求我們司法院跟法務部也要去提出如何在不侵害少年的權益之下你重新去調整整個偵查的程序跟分工要不然你去看五行"},{"start":9950.292,"end":9978.009,"text":"涉及到衛福部 教育 警察 偵查體系整個司法 輔導如果真正沒有辦法去串起來的話那其實對於整個我們現在碰到的問題還是無解那我想今天排這樣的一個專報裡面最主要是我們在隨著社會在看待少年的時候其實這個態度都是"},{"start":9979.98,"end":10005.796,"text":"有時候你看立法院裡面一天裡面看到那麼多人在巡打的時候關注的面向都不一樣關注的面向都不一樣有時候你就變成說少年被當成需要少年犯罪當然需要去懲罰懲罰以後又好像變成安撫一個成年不安的政策的一個工具可是在另外一頭裡面他又被視為需要社會共同去保護重新引導的一個主體"},{"start":10007.077,"end":10020.71,"text":"所以怎麼樣去從預防輔導偵查教育跟司法真正把它做一個對接不然少年司法永遠是事後再捕破網這個都沒有辦法去追上下一個悲劇"},{"start":10022.709,"end":10044.244,"text":"請今天各位安排這樣我們希望這樣的一個制度該做去橫向的一個聯繫整個邵司法修正完以後如何去把這個制度更健全呢我覺得我們司法院還有我們法務部還有衛福部教育體系 警政這個地方再努力一下好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":10050.526,"end":10068.895,"text":"那下一位有請葉元芝委員執行主席好 麻煩請教育部衛福部"},{"start":10074.052,"end":10101.81,"text":"請衛福部次長還有教育部兩個單位兩個就好我想說這個有關於在學校園裡面對於這個有可能這種普選少年他們的人權跟教育以及其他可能會被普選少年所影響到的老師或同學這個中間彼此的權利這麼拿捏啦這一直是一個我覺得嚴肅而且難解的課題"},{"start":10103.151,"end":10119.119,"text":"那當然我覺得目前少年或者是已經有犯法這些少年的人權重要可是在教育的現場我們應該看的是說那其他想要好好在學校受教育的這些同學不想被干擾的同學他們的受教權呢"},{"start":10119.819,"end":10139.995,"text":"還有老師會不會因為有一些少年在學校裡面的影響導致班級的經營或者是在教學上面會受到很大的干擾呢這個教育部跟衛福部應該要去也要針對這個問題去做解決我看到教育部洋洋灑灑的講了很多方案衛福部也是譬如說教育部講說"},{"start":10141.414,"end":10161.209,"text":"你們會針對偏差的行為做輔導例如說會提供一些中途的教育資源比如說慈輝班比如說資源室中途班這裡面報告寫的我再請教慈輝班主要的提供是不是那一些可能比較弱勢家庭"},{"start":10162.216,"end":10174.025,"text":"或者是中措之餘支援是中途班是不是也是中措幫助他回到學校之前先適應一下 對吧"},{"start":10175.013,"end":10198.803,"text":"過度性教育措施嗎對這個部分的話可能會有比較涉及到他可能會有偏差行為那會對其他的師生回到學校之後會有比較是安全之餘的會是在過度性的教育措施裡所以他是比如說你怎麼去認定他有可能會去傷害別人是他曾經犯過法"},{"start":10199.73,"end":10209.872,"text":"曾經犯過法或者是什麼情況之下去認定所以先讓他去這個中途班然後適應一段時間之後再回到學校那是怎麼認定這些人這些同學"},{"start":10211.307,"end":10233.541,"text":"如果是到那個過渡性教育措施的話他會有一個個案的評估會議那也有一部分有可能是會需要跟調法官或者是少年保護官那邊在做一些所以這已經進入到司法的部分了嗎42 上司法第42條所以是已經進入到司法部分"},{"start":10234.602,"end":10261.883,"text":"所以因此我們對於那些就是想要好好讀書的小朋友的保護想好好讀書不想要受到目前少年干擾的保護現在必須要目前少年他可能已經進入到司法的程序也就是說他已經進入到犯罪的行為了才有可能會進入到這個中途的教育機制對不對否則就是說他可能是因為某種原因家庭因素或什麼個人因素中錯"},{"start":10263.206,"end":10292.524,"text":"但中錯不代表他會影響別人他可能只是說他跟不上現在教育所以去中途班教育先學一下 銜接再回到學校園所以其實這個裡面衍生出一個問題就如果有一些青少年或學生他可能有加入幫派他可能在學校一直比如說霸凌或者是在上課搗蛋被記了非常多大過你現在沒有辦法強制他去中途班 對吧"},{"start":10294.676,"end":10320.148,"text":"這個裡面還有一個輔導機制是少年輔導委員會我們也會跟警政那邊聯繫然後警政有用嗎我會這樣子講就是因為現在校園充斥太多類似這樣我剛講的狀況而且現在的機制是無法解決的你說你有跟那個警政署有聯繫你看你們後面還講說怎麼防止他們參與犯罪"},{"start":10320.97,"end":10329.83,"text":"比如說如果他疑似參加不良組織都會依通報輔導有用嗎通報給警政署警察單位是不是"},{"start":10330.39,"end":10356.484,"text":"其實後續也會有一些輔導輔導有用嗎比如說我們提供高關懷的課程然後讓他效果都很有限啊然後你們提到說會加強那個校園安全的宣導譬如說校安通報防患於未然但問題是有校安人力嗎我在我了解的狀況是有些學校只要譬如說一個學生去霸凌霸凌另外一個同學那個校假設他有一個校園人力因為我確定在"},{"start":10357.726,"end":10376.233,"text":"一直在爭取國中的校園人力嘛一個 一個而已喔那個校園人力面對到一個霸凌其他的同學的那個霸凌者他就要花很多的時間在那個霸凌者身上所以如果再增加其他的曝險少年的話這個人力是非常不足的啦然後再來啊"},{"start":10377.659,"end":10403.716,"text":"那個衛福部的報告裡面也有寫到說112到113年服務了大概1005位具有偏差行為的一個青少年然後說要幫助他們提升家庭功能有提升的嗎包委我們這個部分我們有一個寧靜少年的一個輔導方案這個主要是衛福部他補助各地方政府補助嘛各地方政府 對但是你因為你有補助所以算你的業務嘛要提升的嘛"},{"start":10404.236,"end":10427.123,"text":"包圍他們這部分他們會結合那個地方的NGO跟NPO我問你效果嘛你不要一直告訴我做法我問你效果嘛 提升了嗎包圍那個所以衛福部只是把錢花下去不會管它的效果我們當然有做一些相關的一些所以提升大家的家庭功能了嗎因為現在有很多在學校會影響別人讀書的那些青少年很多都是家庭"},{"start":10428.154,"end":10450.728,"text":"爸媽不管所以現在在學校裡面很多老師覺得說這些家庭是不是可以把爸媽把這小孩領回去當然大家會站在這個小朋友的教育的角度會覺得這樣子可能不OK因為他還是有受教育的權利但是代表說你們衛福部補助所謂提升家庭功能這個做法達不到效果"},{"start":10452.032,"end":10475.382,"text":"包圍那個的地方他們的回饋基本上認為就是說效果很有限如果今天效果這麼你可以去了解一下如果說這個效果這麼有的話為什麼每個學校常常都會發現同學被霸凌或老師被欺負現在老師都不敢管學生老師很多都消磨熱忱的你們會不會去了解一下"},{"start":10475.962,"end":10498.138,"text":"所以今天雖然我們是排的是比較偏司法面但是我覺得教育部衛福部更應該重視的是那一些少年他沒有到犯法的時候還沒有到犯法的時候但他其實已經這個邊緣了而且他在學校就是會影響別人那這個部分的輔導機制處理機制在哪裡這也是一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":10500.202,"end":10518.591,"text":"所以是不是 針對這個部分包委我們就跟教育部這邊我想重點像您所說的應該主要是他的家庭失能的問題這個部分我們會朝這個方向來努力我剛講這個算是一個問題缺口目前你們的機制我看不到有解決的方案出來"},{"start":10520.593,"end":10531.314,"text":"請針對這個部分去做一個研究啦好的 好 謝謝好 感謝院知委員接下來請我們最專業的林倩琦委員來做詢答"},{"start":10539.044,"end":10561.841,"text":"謝謝我們的主席莊昭偉我們先請教育部次長跟警政署今天的代表我們副局長蕭副局長教育部的次長沒來今天是副署長這樣就可能副署長學前教育署的副署長還有我們行政檢察局蕭副局長"},{"start":10564.782,"end":10576.82,"text":"好 謝謝本席今天先針對這個線上遊戲導致的這個陳紹共犯然後來就教育部跟警政署我們怎麼樣來補這個破網那也就是說現在有一個"},{"start":10581.266,"end":10592.114,"text":"很嚴重的問題這個問題是這個數字上升很急劇但是大人世界都還沒有完全搞懂的一個新的事件跟戰場在產生那麼警政署的統計18歲以下的兒少遭詐欺從105年的這個863人到113年2346人這8年間翻轉了大概三倍"},{"start":10605.311,"end":10629.828,"text":"裡面有超過99%比例的人是12歲到18歲的少年今年到8月份的一個累計人數已經超過了1200人超過過去一年的量被害的形態以網路拍賣還有一夜市的購物跟遊戲點數被詐騙的最多有接觸的第一線的督導就談到手機遊戲裡面現在不只是騙錢而且還會產生"},{"start":10632.49,"end":10648.743,"text":"數位性剝削的一個可能性那麼本席這邊憂心兒少不只是被詐騙現在一步步在這樣子的過程當中會被拉成共犯那詐騙犯罪集團目前不是只有實體的到網咖去找人而且會躲在這些線上遊戲如星塵online傳說對決這些很熱門的線上遊戲"},{"start":10654.167,"end":10675.725,"text":"的聊天室裡那麼來專門挑長時間掛在網上的還有年紀偏小或者是沒有固定工作的玩家來搭訕會用一些話術例如打工送貨可不可以幫忙送一次性的東西兩千塊這樣子的話術但事實上已經在招募車手跟運毒的工具人"},{"start":10676.565,"end":10694.806,"text":"甚至有些少年以為只是幫忙送貨結果身上就被搜出了K他命這個是已經導致了成少共犯的情景社會感覺上是我們沒有任何的處置就會把孩子丟進犯罪的灰色地帶所以本席要先請教教育部"},{"start":10695.307,"end":10713.583,"text":"那麼審計部已經點名建議我們用短影音或高流用短影音或者是跟高流量的YouTuber來做一個合作來防詐那當然還有媒體宣導那麼教育部現在的作為待會是不是可以跟本席回應一下有沒有專門針對網購的詐騙還有遊戲點數的詐騙還有假打工招募這樣子兒少最常碰到的情況來製作教材 教案"},{"start":10724.613,"end":10744.994,"text":"這是教育部的部分還有另外一個就是學校端目前在資訊課的部分還有班級經營上有沒有很系統性很結構性的要求每一個學年應該放入防詐反讀跟媒體試讀的一些時數還是你們目前只是一些講座或者是簡單的宣導海報"},{"start":10746.195,"end":10764.031,"text":"那這樣子跟一個系統性跟結構性的一個防詐反毒其實是可能還是有很大的一個落差那你們現在的一個作為是什麼那還是讓每一個國高中生有沒有最低時數的一個標準然後來接受一定時數的這個系統性的防詐反毒教育"},{"start":10764.631,"end":10789.689,"text":"那另外警政署的部分本席想請教那面對目前手機遊戲網路遊戲聊天室在招募車手運毒的這種網路犯罪的猖獗那你們目前主要跟遊戲平台有沒有建立跟主要的遊戲平台有沒有建立固定而且非常暢通的通報機制或合作還是目前是被害人好像報案了才有動作那你們是有主動還是"},{"start":10791.19,"end":10807.273,"text":"被動的等待那另外第二個部分是針對高風險的這個少年資訊警政署目前有沒有籌就是統籌協調各部會地方政府在系統上與各地方少府會能夠取得單一少年的資訊平台也就是說"},{"start":10808.584,"end":10823.069,"text":"其實這個問題本行問過很多次但因為警政署是統整的目前就是少年發生的問題他可能今天詐騙明天吸毒或者後天有什麼家庭的問題每一次都針對事件有沒有針對"},{"start":10826.731,"end":10850.148,"text":"在這個對象本體當中他所遭遇的這個部分有一個系統性資訊的統整所以這個部分最主要就是說在更新的類別資料中我們希望學校設陣的體系還有家福 少府會等等在被送進這個體系之前能夠及時從各單位了解這個兔險少年這個少年的相關的風險"},{"start":10851.129,"end":10872.441,"text":"而不是只是資料的搜尋那因為資訊不互通就沒有被重視就慢慢的它就演變成犯罪所以就會產生了陳紹共犯的一個問題所以這是本席要向這個警政署這邊來詢問的那是不是請你們針對本席上面所解釋的所講的那做一個比較具體的回應謝謝"},{"start":10875.021,"end":10896.841,"text":"謝謝委員關心兒少受到詐騙的議題教育部有配合行政院新世代打擊犯罪策略行動綱領我們有建置一個詐騙防治專區的網站裡面的內容有包括剛委員指導的"},{"start":10898.122,"end":10925.438,"text":"非常多的宣導的素材還有就是會去說明一些詐騙的那個樣態然後也有一些相關的法規的資源請教一下那你們有製作這些教材跟教案嗎有是我們也可以提供給那個委員本席比較關心的就是說那這個東西有沒有很事實的而且讓大家真的注意到這樣事情的一個嚴重性對"},{"start":10927.119,"end":10953.037,"text":"那那個相關的時數呢時數的話目前應該是都是利用學校的一個團體活動的那個課程或者是它融入相關的課程比如說公民啊或者是綜合領域啊等等的它是融入因為在我們那個十二年國教108課綱裡頭本來就是在法治教育的內涵裡面它就有反詐騙的一個議題的內容那這樣"},{"start":10955.879,"end":10975.764,"text":"聽起來就是好像資訊性的偏多本席現在講的是他已經兒少共犯的成少共犯的情形非常嚴重了所以可能目前在內容上還有系統上或主題性上可能要再加重因為你們可能在法治教育公民教育大家認為是一般性的這樣一個教育可是目前這個問題還蠻嚴重的"},{"start":10977.845,"end":11003.71,"text":"所以可能在這內容當中的時數或者是內容的結構比重對 可能要做一下更新那是不是先把相關目前有的資料讓本席做一個了解那接下來警政署本席剛才所談的這個部分委員那剛剛委員所提的分成兩個區塊那就是有關詐欺我們的少年第一個是被騙第二個是"},{"start":11005.79,"end":11029.52,"text":"處罰那被騙這個區塊現在很多年輕小朋友尤其是在玩手遊這一部分常常透過手遊購物這個地方被騙那我們這個地方跟各手遊的業者包括速發部財政部我們都有做平台平常的溝通跟做市站另外一個是在處罰這一部分那"},{"start":11031.149,"end":11057.394,"text":"少年會從事處罰都是當車手那這個主嫌一定是懲犯所以都幾乎沒有其他的類別所以就是處罰那麼多都是當詐騙的車手因為當車手不需要技術所以都很容易為了物質來加入了這個集團那這個部分我們也要求各"},{"start":11058.816,"end":11083.172,"text":"縣市的哨戶會能夠在開案這一部分就是剛剛我們召委所提到的新北的那個個案所以我們之前就是說如果是在學或是已經是在做管收了我們的哨戶會就不開案那經過這個個案之後我們嚴厲現在縱使已經是在管收輔導還是就學當中我們的哨戶會還是要繼續開案"},{"start":11084.273,"end":11088.016,"text":"好 謝謝你這邊的解釋跟回應但是本席這邊對於我們現在講的這個部分其實最關注的就是說這個可能會從被詐騙或者是已經有問題的兒少到犯罪之前我們是不是在資訊的一個整合度上不會他碰到什麼問題可能就有點先做某一些預防"},{"start":11109.249,"end":11130.113,"text":"不要讓他有機會到犯罪的程度因為他可能在被詐騙然後中間可能到犯罪的過程當中他會有一些不同形式的問題目前資訊似乎不是太整合你們目前是少婦會整合的一個統籌單位所以你們有沒有針對每一個單位需要知道的資訊就這個個案本體讓大家能夠了解呢"},{"start":11133.214,"end":11158.82,"text":"不會今天他被騙了然後就有一個資訊然後他明天可能又家庭發生了什麼問題那另外一個資訊所以各單位沒有辦法統整知道這樣一個少年他本身可能已經在步入到犯罪的路途上那我們可能在這個中間我們就可以趕快先做一個處理在資訊的統整度上你們這邊的一個做法呢那有關被騙這一部分我們拍了非常多的一個宣導"},{"start":11159.982,"end":11182.257,"text":"我講的是說那資訊的一個相互了解就是說那衛福單位知不知道這個個案的問題我們跟教育部各級的學校都有非常充分的配合來希望校園能夠做通報及警方在執行工作的時候發現有少年問題我們都有密切的來做配合"},{"start":11182.694,"end":11200.456,"text":"我想請教一下目前我們感覺到資訊不互通你們現在除了說跟教育部跟比如說衛福部或者是這個社政體系的資訊的流通你們的一個做法呢目前大家可不可以找到相關的統整的資訊"},{"start":11202.018,"end":11211.435,"text":"像我們跟教育部固定有的開了很多的會議聯繫那目前學校面臨什麼問題那我們都共同的來面對問題來做解決"},{"start":11213.294,"end":11232.343,"text":"好 本席這邊最主要是提醒你可不可以相關的資料後續讓本席的辦公室知道可以送給本席比較具體的一個做法最重要的就是說那個資訊不互通不要成為少年在被詐騙一直到犯罪的過程當中我們沒有及時去做處理的一個狀況好嗎"},{"start":11233.744,"end":11248.819,"text":"這是最重要的那接下來很快我們還是問一下有關於本席一直很關心的少府會的人力的這個問題那是不是請衛福部次長跟警政署本席想要針對這個部分還是做一個了解跟提醒"},{"start":11249.72,"end":11265.789,"text":"我們其實談了很久都在講行政輔導先行但是少府會現在人力碰到的缺口然後社工跟少府員是第一線的人但是第一線的社工跟少府員目前真正碰到很大的問題我們舉例來說好了因為這本席"},{"start":11268.45,"end":11286.145,"text":"在質詢的這個部分已經談過很多次我們舉例說台中的尚服會目前有二十名社工但是三分之二的年資不到兩年資深的社工大量的流失我們真的要去思考這個問題就代表環境不好讓大家很難做"},{"start":11286.846,"end":11313.682,"text":"那高雄市的少府會呢一年的業務費只有30萬甚至有的時候還要靠社工自己做計劃那這還是直轄市喔社工一個人手上要接到15到30個個案但是我們再看看台東縣只有兩個人他要兼行政輔導提案甚至時常要有臨時的危機處理這樣子的配置很難實際的落實我們行政輔導先行"},{"start":11315.443,"end":11337.102,"text":"利益良好但是在實際的作為上我們沒有把一些細節弄好的話它其實也會成空所以本席這邊要請衛福部跟警政署這邊回應一下請衛福部是不是會同警政署來全面盤點各縣市少府會的社工人力還有經費跟聘用的結構"},{"start":11338.323,"end":11363.76,"text":"並明確定出中央負擔的最低補助標準不要讓各縣市在各憑本事那這會衝擊到最大的就是偏鄉跟原鄉這些地區那第二個部分是少府員的這個薪資不要再用計劃執行率來給付因為有的時候會延宕那麼社政體系最穩定的工作者不能成為薪資不穩定的一個受害者好嗎然後第三個部分"},{"start":11364.841,"end":11387.499,"text":"少府會目前的運作主力就是聘社工人員請衛福部警政署共同研擬出我們如何來強化少府會人力的資源計畫包括專業培訓專業薪資合理化還有聘勤的穩定化才能真正留住人針對本席以上少府會人力這樣一個建議你們的看法就這三點"},{"start":11388.34,"end":11416.676,"text":"很快的簡單給本席的回應委員對這個問題的關心這個部分有關人力跟業務費這個都是社安網這邊我們會來有預算的支持我們要地方那邊當然要先報上來剛剛委員你剛剛所說你現在還是其實有這個問題還是要中央比較積極的來主動處理好不好不要一直在等地方我們是中央我們很多東西要走的比地方快好 謝謝委員我們會來全力來推動好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11418.106,"end":11446.286,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琪委員的詢答那確實我們有責任替那些沒有被看到需要被保護的孩子多做一點事那我們也希望今天各部會這麼多委員的一個提出來的一些問題共同來提出一個可執行的一個時間跟責任的一個歸屬還有這個跨部會的一個協作的一個機制那我們"},{"start":11448.26,"end":11471.374,"text":"接下來楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那所有的登記的委員都已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或者書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員跟本會那我們"},{"start":11473.584,"end":11485.429,"text":"林縣級委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請參觀機關以書面來做一個答覆本次的會議我們就到此結束現在上會 謝謝大家"},{"start":11519.676,"end":11520.937,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"165979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158596b64a9e2dc0cb248d6356a8ccaa37a42a0b20679a7fea94cec6f0a0ad4d1e0835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:32:27 - 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謝謝我們的主席莊昭偉那麼我們先請教育部次長跟警政署今天的代表我們副局長嘛蕭副局長教育部 次長沒來喔今天是副署長這樣就可能副署長囉學前教育署的副署長還有我們行政檢察局蕭副局長"},{"start":32.54,"end":44.855,"text":"好 謝謝本席今天先針對這個線上遊戲導致的這個陳紹共犯然後來就教育部跟警政署我們怎麼樣來補這個破網那也就是說現在有一個"},{"start":49.301,"end":60.149,"text":"很嚴重的問題這個問題是這個數字上升很急劇但是大人世界都還沒有完全搞懂的一個新的事件跟戰場在產生那麼警政署的統計18歲以下的兒少遭詐欺從105年的這個863人到113年2346人這8年間翻轉了大概三倍"},{"start":73.349,"end":97.862,"text":"裡面有超過99%比例的人是12歲到18歲的少年今年到8月份的一個累計人數已經超過了1200人超過過去一年的量被害的形態以網路拍賣還有一夜市的購物跟遊戲點數被詐騙的最多有接觸的第一線的督導就談到手機遊戲裡面現在不只是騙錢而且還會產生"},{"start":100.523,"end":116.767,"text":"數位性剝削的一個可能性那麼本席這邊憂心了兒少不只是被詐騙現在一步步在這樣子的過程當中會被拉成共犯那詐騙犯罪集團目前不是只有實體的到網咖去找人而且會躲在這些線上遊戲如星塵online傳說對決這些很熱門的這個線上遊戲"},{"start":122.208,"end":143.763,"text":"的聊天室裡那麼來專門挑長時間掛在網上的還有年紀偏小或者是沒有固定工作的玩家來搭訕會用一些話術例如打工送貨可不可以幫忙送一次性的東西兩千塊這樣子的話術但事實上已經在招募車手跟運毒的工具人"},{"start":144.603,"end":162.844,"text":"甚至有些少年以為只是幫忙送貨結果身上就被搜出了K他命這個是已經導致了成少共犯的情景社會感覺上是我們沒有任何的處置就會把孩子丟進犯罪的灰色地帶所以本席要先請教教育部"},{"start":163.325,"end":181.621,"text":"那麼審計部已經點名建議我們用短影音或高流用短影音或者是跟高流量的YouTuber來做一個合作來防詐那當然還有媒體宣導那麼教育部現在的作為待會是不是可以跟本席回應一下有沒有專門針對網購的詐騙還有遊戲點數的詐騙還有假打工招募這樣子兒少最常碰到的情況來製作教材 教案"},{"start":192.651,"end":213.032,"text":"這是教育部的部分還有另外一個就是學校端目前在資訊課的部分還有班級經營上有沒有很系統性很結構性的要求每一個學年應該放入防詐反讀跟媒體試讀的一些時數還是你們目前只是一些講座或者是簡單的宣導海報"},{"start":214.233,"end":232.065,"text":"那這樣子跟一個系統性跟結構性的一個防詐反毒其實是可能還是有很大的一個落差那你們現在的一個作為是什麼那還是讓每一個國高中生有沒有最低時數的一個標準然後來接受一定時數的這個系統性的防詐反毒教育"},{"start":232.665,"end":257.727,"text":"那另外警政署的部分本席想請教那面對目前手機遊戲網路遊戲聊天室在招募車手運毒的這種網路犯罪的猖獗那你們目前主要跟遊戲平台有沒有建立跟主要的遊戲平台有沒有建立固定而且非常暢通的通報機制或合作還是目前是被害人好像報案了才有動作那你們是有主動還是"},{"start":259.208,"end":275.308,"text":"被動的等待那另外第二個部分是針對高風險的這個少年資訊警政署目前有沒有籌就是統籌協調各部會地方政府在系統上與各地方少府會能夠取得單一少年的資訊平台也就是說"},{"start":276.621,"end":291.027,"text":"其實這個問題本行問過很多次但因為警政署是統整的目前就是少年發生的問題他可能今天詐騙明天吸毒或者後天有什麼家庭的問題每一次都針對事件有沒有針對"},{"start":294.769,"end":318.189,"text":"在這個對象本體當中他所遭遇的這個部分有一個系統性資訊的統整所以這個部分最主要就是說在更新的類別資料中我們希望學校設陣的體系還有家福、少府會等等在被送進這個體系之前能夠及時從各單位了解這個兔險少年這個少年的相關的風險"},{"start":319.17,"end":340.459,"text":"而不是只是資料的搜尋那因為資訊不互通就沒有被重視就慢慢的它就演變成犯罪所以就會產生成少共犯的一個問題所以這是本席要向這個警政署這邊來詢問的那是不是請你們針對本席上面所解釋的所講的做一個比較具體的回應 謝謝"},{"start":343.059,"end":364.875,"text":"謝謝委員關心兒少受到詐騙的議題教育部有配合行政院新世代打擊犯罪策略行動綱領我們有建置一個詐騙防治專區的網站裡面的內容有包括剛委員指導的"},{"start":366.156,"end":393.473,"text":"非常多的宣導的素材還有就是會去說明一些詐騙的那個樣態然後也有一些相關的法規的資源請教一下那你們有製作這些教材跟教案嗎有有有是我們也可以提供給那個委員本席比較關心的就是說那這個東西有沒有很事實的而且讓大家真的注意到這樣事情的一個嚴重性"},{"start":395.154,"end":422.934,"text":"那那个相关的时数呢时数的话目前应该是都是利用学校的一个团体活动的那个课程或者是它融入相关的课程比如说公民啊或者是综合领域啊等等的它是融入因为在我们那个十二年国教108课纲里头本来就是在法治教育的内涵里面它就有反诈骗的一个议题的内容"},{"start":424.074,"end":443.941,"text":"這樣聽起來就是好像資訊性的偏多本席現在講的是他已經兒少共犯的成少共犯的情形非常嚴重了所以可能目前在內容上還有系統上或主題性上可能要再加重因為你們可能在法治教育公民教育大家認為是一般性的這樣一個教育可是目前這個問題還蠻嚴重的"},{"start":445.862,"end":464.819,"text":"所以可能在這內容當中的時數或者是內容的結構比重對 可能要做一下更新那是不是先把相關目前有的資料讓本席做一個了解那接下來警政署本席剛才所談的這個部分委員那剛剛委員所提的分成兩個區塊那就是"},{"start":467.481,"end":486.961,"text":"有關詐欺我們的少年第一個是被騙第二個是觸法那被騙這個區塊現在很多年輕小朋友尤其是在玩手遊這一部分常常透過手遊購物這個地方被騙那我們這個地方跟各手遊的業者"},{"start":488.067,"end":501.201,"text":"包括速發部 財政部我們都有做平台平常的溝通跟做試駕另外一個是在處罰這一部分少年會從事處罰都是當車手"},{"start":503.888,"end":525.43,"text":"主嫌一定是成犯所以都幾乎沒有其他的類別所以就是處罰那麼多都是當詐騙的車手因為當車手不需要技術所以都很容易為了物質來加入了這個集團那這個部分我們也要求各"},{"start":526.853,"end":551.209,"text":"縣市的哨戶會能夠在開案這一部分就是剛剛我們召委所提到的新北的那個個案所以我們之前就是說如果是在學或是已經是在做管收了我們的哨戶會就不開案那經過這個個案之後我們嚴厲現在縱使已經是在管收輔導還是就學當中我們的哨戶會還是要繼續開案"},{"start":552.31,"end":556.053,"text":"好 謝謝你這邊的解釋跟回應但是本席這邊對於我們現在講的這個部分其實最關注的就是說那這個可能會從被詐騙或者是已經有問題的兒少到犯罪之前那我們是不是在資訊的一個整合度上不會他碰到什麼問題可能就有點先做某一些預防"},{"start":577.29,"end":598.249,"text":"不要讓他有機會到這個犯罪的程度因為他可能在被詐騙然後中間可能到犯罪的過程當中他會有一些不同形式的這個問題那目前資訊似乎不是太整合你們目前是那個兒少府會整合的一個統籌單位所以你們有沒有針對每一個單位需要知道的資訊就這個個案本體讓大家能夠了解呢"},{"start":601.252,"end":626.869,"text":"不會今天他被騙了然後就一個資訊然後他明天可能又家庭發生了什麼問題那另外一個資訊所以各單位沒有辦法統整知道這樣一個少年他本身可能已經在步入到犯罪的路途上那我們可能在這中間我們就可以趕快先做一個處理在資訊的統整度上你們這邊的一個做法呢那有關被騙這部分我們拍了非常多的一個宣導"},{"start":628.019,"end":650.298,"text":"我講的是說資訊的一個相互瞭解就是說衛福單位知不知道這個個案的問題我們跟教育部各級的學校都有非常充分的配合希望校園能夠做通報及警方在執行工作的時候發現有少年問題我們都有密切的來做配合"},{"start":650.811,"end":668.578,"text":"那我想請教一下那個目前我們感覺到資訊不互通啦那你們現在除了說跟教育部那跟比如說衛福部啊或者是這個社政體系的這個資訊的一個流通你們的一個做法呢目前大家可不可以找到相關的這個統整的一個資訊"},{"start":670.059,"end":679.473,"text":"像我們跟教育部固定有的開了很多的會議聯繫那目前學校面臨什麼問題那我們都共同的來面對問題來做解決"},{"start":681.314,"end":700.382,"text":"好 本席這邊最主要是提醒你可不可以相關的資料後續讓本席的辦公室知道那可以送給本席比較具體的一個做法那最重要的就是說那個資訊不互通不要成為少年在被詐騙一直到犯罪的過程當中我們沒有及時去做處理的一個狀況 好嗎"},{"start":701.782,"end":716.853,"text":"這是最重要的那接下來很快我們還是問一下有關於本席一直很關心的少婦會的人力的這個問題那是不是請這個衛福部次長跟警政署本席想要針對這個部分還是做一個了解跟提醒"},{"start":717.634,"end":733.823,"text":"那我們其實談了很久都在講行政輔導先行但是少府會現在人力碰到的這個缺口然後社工跟少府員是第一線的人但是呢第一線的社工跟少府員目前呢真正碰到很大的問題我們舉例來說好了因為這本席"},{"start":736.485,"end":754.183,"text":"在質詢的這個部分已經談過很多次我們舉例說啦台中的少府會目前有二十名社工但是三分之二的年資不到兩年資深的社工大量的流失我們真的要去思考這個問題就代表環境不好讓大家很難做"},{"start":754.884,"end":770.215,"text":"那高雄市的少府會呢一年的業務費只有30萬甚至有的時候還要靠社工自己做計畫那這還是直轄市喔社工一個人手上要接到15到30個個案但是我們再看看台東縣只有兩個人齁"},{"start":771.536,"end":790.055,"text":"他要兼行政輔導提案甚至時常要有臨時的危機處理這樣子的配置很難實際的落實我們行政輔導先行那利益良好但是在實際的作為上我們沒有把一些細節弄好的話他其實也會成空"},{"start":790.575,"end":805.131,"text":"所以本席這邊要請衛福部跟警政署這邊回應一下請衛福部是不是會同警政署來全面盤點各縣市少府會的社工人力還有經費跟聘用的結構"},{"start":806.372,"end":831.779,"text":"並明確定出中央負擔的最低補助標準不要讓各縣市在各憑本事那這會衝擊到最大的就是偏鄉跟原鄉這些地區那第二個部分是少府員的這個薪資不要再用計劃執行率來給付因為有的時候會延宕那麼社政體系最穩定的工作者不能成為薪資不穩定的一個受害者好嗎然後第三個部分"},{"start":832.879,"end":855.521,"text":"少府會目前的運作主力就是聘社工人員請衛福部警政署共同研擬出我們如何來強化少府會人力的資源計畫包括專業培訓專業薪資合理化還有聘請的穩定化才能真正留住人那針對本席以上少府會人力這樣一個建議你們的看法就這三點"},{"start":856.461,"end":881.599,"text":"很快的簡單給本席的回應非常感謝侯委員對這個問題的關心這個部分有關人力跟業務費這個都是涉案網這邊我們會來有預算的支持我們地方那邊當然要先報上來剛剛委員你剛剛所說其實有這個問題還是要中央比較積極的來主動處理好不好不要一直在等地方我們是中央我們很多東西要走的比地方快好 謝謝委員我們會來全力來推動好不好 謝謝"},{"start":886.144,"end":890.222,"text":"好 谢谢林倩琪委员的寻答"}]}},{"id":"165978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859e7b75576454e9539bd93e540dfe0040ea0b20679a7fea94c1da20d41cb0576d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:36:26 - 11:43:48","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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花東 金門 澎湖高雄市 台南市 嘉義縣苗栗縣 宜蘭縣等等的幾乎是不分"},{"start":46.69,"end":62.552,"text":"不分黨派啦 藍綠幾乎都 這個執政的縣市幾乎都宣布了 就不要再廚餘養豬免得又有這個疑慮喔這個到底什麼時候這個什麼時候你可以宣布全面禁止廚餘"},{"start":64.133,"end":90.687,"text":"我跟我們報告第一個部分就是整個大方向來講我們會有個弱智 廚餘養豬的一個弱智讓這些廚餘養豬互有一個過渡期那過渡期我們會讓它轉型成為用飼料的部分那您剛才說的有不同至少現在目前有應該是有將近五個縣市本身是禁止廚餘養豬不止五個喔 剛剛唸的就不止五個啦沒有 原來的不算 原來已經禁止的不算啦十幾個了 加起來十幾個了對 加起來是十幾個但是 對啊 就一半啦 沒有"},{"start":91.147,"end":103.306,"text":"一個最重要的 除以養豬大縣市的部分包括新北 包括桃園 包括新竹 台中 彰化這幾個都不吭聲所以我們的相關的政策你叫他吭聲啊"},{"start":104.537,"end":117.375,"text":"沒有 前六大還有屏東這六大的部分我們會跟縣市政府溝通我請問你成本考量是不是屬於成本考量不是成本考量不然為什麼呢這個如果大家講不然就是飼料嘛飼料比較貴飼料跟廚藥差多少錢"},{"start":121.3,"end":142.988,"text":"你告訴我 差多了喔因為沒有 差幾% 差幾%第一個除以養豬的黑豬的部分他要養差不多一年啦然後一般的白豬的話大概是180天大概六個月啦所以這兩個時間點不一樣他的換肉率也不一樣你跟我講嘛 這都聽不懂啦成本差多少啦3層4層5層6層大概差10多塊啦10多塊是幾%啦幾%幾% 每一公斤幾%啦"},{"start":150.42,"end":174.857,"text":"三層左右三層左右三層左右多少錢啊這個你們農業補貼一下不就好了嗎我們後面我們現在除以養豬的轉型我們有一個比較好的方案但是委員非常重視的剛才一個很重要的問題就是廚餘如果沒有沒有好好處理的時候它變成另外一個環境議題那現實上我們的對啦因為現在六層的廚餘都是去餵豬的嘛"},{"start":180.36,"end":195.635,"text":"所以我們會跟縣市政府溝通他當地的廚藝如果能夠有效的處理你現在因為我時間有限你就具體回答我你心目中什麼時候可以確定我全國禁止廚藝養豬以農業部來講我們是越快越好"},{"start":196.395,"end":222.08,"text":"越快越好 多快 三個月可以嗎沒有 我們越快越好但是一個很重要 我剛才說的就是我們要讓我們的廚藝養豬戶有一個轉型期讓他來接受輔導第二個部分就是轉型要多久嘛轉型的部分要看因為從申請 像現在裝天線的話就裝了三個月 它還沒有裝好所以這個部分 我想我們會盡快要夠鼓鼓鼓就對了沒有 我們會跟環境部會溝通我可不可以這樣講 給你寬鬆一點"},{"start":224.58,"end":240.974,"text":"我們你預期一年內可以確實做到全國禁止出移洋出移會三年嗎我想我們的方案裡面有這樣的一個選項但是我們會跟地方政府會跟地方政府溝通啊可不可以這樣講"},{"start":242.617,"end":257.89,"text":"最慢一年越快越好這樣可以嗎不過這個還要跟地方政府溝通啦我說弱勢當然以我們來講越快越好但是相對的地方政府如果在除以本身的處理沒辦法處理的話可能就會有所調整所以我一年是可以期待的嘛 對不對"},{"start":258.789,"end":265.511,"text":"一年可以期待 在我們的方案之一可以期待好 第二個題目簡短光電三法通過以後其實對這個熔電共生其實是有一定的衝擊這個當然是正面的我們認為9月8號審計部報告魚電共生七成有電沒有魚 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這個你要加油啊 人家打你槍啊我知道 了解謝謝 謝謝世保委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"17076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17076","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e66a25cdaa7df4ae8552cff921016ef4a85db5c09cad80ab75b95bec83bd3282a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-11-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-11-27T08:33:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-27T10:17:00+08:00","duration":6188,"影片長度":"01:43:08","委員發言時間":"08:33:52 - 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議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程繼續審查本院民進黨黨團理據財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1728.037,"end":1750.973,"text":"我先介紹今天我們在場的委員包含林思敏召委陳玉珍委員郭國文委員鍾嘉斌委員吳秉瑞委員接著我介紹在場的與會官員財政部政務市長阮清華"},{"start":1752.918,"end":1777.029,"text":"法治處處長姚瑩國庫署副署長馬曉慧行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝基金預算處處長潘清紅衛生福利部社會保險司代理司長陳真慧勞動部政務次長李建宏勞動福祉退休司司長黃維琛"},{"start":1780.362,"end":1783.454,"text":"法務部調部辦事檢察官楊石宇"},{"start":1787.984,"end":1810.552,"text":"本次会议安排继续审查本院民进党党团领据财政收支划分法第16条之一未分配款运用暂行条例草案案现在请议事人员宣读今日审查本院民进党党团领据财政收支划分法第16条之一未分配款运用暂行条例草案之条例草案内容"},{"start":1812.253,"end":1836.513,"text":"第一條為照顧國民與老年退休生育時之基本經濟安全特制定本條例本條例為規定者適用其他法律之規定第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為財政部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本條例所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執章者由目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":1837.714,"end":1857.009,"text":"第三條 本條例所稱老年國民應符合下列四個條件一 曾參加國民年金保險於年滿65歲時依照國民年金法第30條規定請理老年年金及負責二 依照國民年金法第30條規定請理老年生基本保證年金者"},{"start":1857.789,"end":1874.47,"text":"本条例所称生育后国民于新生儿于我国办理出生或出设户籍登记之法定代理人本条例所称劳工应符合劳工退休金条例第七条之适用对象第四条本条例所称温废配款"},{"start":1875.211,"end":1890.91,"text":"细指中华民国一百三年十一月二十日三度通过修正财政收支划分法第十六条之一条文修正统筹分配税款之分配方式因其分配计算公式自无法分配之款项第五条"},{"start":1892.151,"end":1918.5,"text":"符合第三條第一項規定之老年國民政府應發給老年生活輔助金老年生活輔助金之金額依照國民年金保險法規定請你老年年金給付不足新台幣八千元者政府應每月補足至新台幣八千元為上限前項輔助金計算作業程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商各目的事業主管機關定之第六條"},{"start":1919.44,"end":1938.797,"text":"第六條符合第三條第二項規定之生育後國民政府應發給產後照顧津貼產後照顧津貼之發放應一次發給新台幣十萬元前項津貼作業程序及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關會上各目的事業主管機關定之第七條"},{"start":1940.365,"end":1964.951,"text":"符合第三條第二項規定之勞工依照勞工退休金條例第四條第三項及第四項規定自願提繳退休金後政府應發給自願提繳獎勵金自願提繳獎勵金之金額主管機關按月提繳前年度全國每年人每月經常薪薪資平均數百分之一之金額並以新台幣五百元為上限"},{"start":1965.771,"end":1974.225,"text":"前項獎勵金計算諸位程序及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關會商各目的事業主管機關定之第八條"},{"start":1975.714,"end":2003.947,"text":"中央主管機關未發放老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金得運用本條例第四條鎖定未分配款作為經費來源第九條請你老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金之權利不得作為抵押讓與抵銷或供單保之標的第十條老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金之發放期間"},{"start":2004.907,"end":2033.279,"text":"自中華民國一百十五年一月一日起發放至中華民國一百十五年十二月三十一日子前向至發放本條例第四條所稱未分配款用情為止第十一條本條例至公佈日施行宣讀完畢好那我再介紹一下現在在場又有到的委員林德福委員賴世寶委員還有黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2035.287,"end":2064.203,"text":"好主席刚才宣读条文的时候这边有发现第三条第一项第二款的第一行依照国民年金法第30条的规定那个漏了一个1因为上面是第一款是30条第二款是31条可能是散打上或者有缺漏那我们对照条文第二款应该是31条请做更正条文内容"},{"start":2066.495,"end":2078.28,"text":"所以第三條的第二款依照國民年金法第三十一條規定是不是好那我們現在進行協商"},{"start":2120.694,"end":2132.782,"text":"好來那我是不是先請我們這個提案的民進黨立法院黨團我們那個先做一個提案的一個大體的一個說明然後我們接下來就是一個大體的一個討論那要請鍾嘉斌委員來先做個提案的說明嗎"},{"start":2147.281,"end":2162.634,"text":"好 我想上次在巡達的時候我們已經對民進黨團版關於財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例的草案進行過說明那在這裡有一個要再提醒"},{"start":2163.554,"end":2181.028,"text":"跟提出的就是为什么特别请我们议事人员把在11月21日通过的财政收支划分法的16条之一以及38条之二的条文内容没有"},{"start":2182.229,"end":2206.648,"text":"38条之二在后面拿出来请大家看那么主要是这样子因为在那一次的院会当中通过国民党党团版的16条之一跟38条之二这里面的他38条之二他是回溯条款他这里写着他说本法在88年1月13日修正之第八条那个是第一项那没有什么问题"},{"start":2207.389,"end":2235.672,"text":"第二項他寫到在114年11月21日修正之第16條之一的施行日期那我們看一下這是去年的11月21日也就是說當時在去年對財化法進行16條之一的修正的時候他有在公示上一個錯誤因此在這個條款的目的是將我們在上上週就是11月21日"},{"start":2238.408,"end":2250.261,"text":"就是我要說對不起我更正剛剛講的114年11月21日就是本法修正後的16條之一的施行日期要回溯到今年的3月21日"},{"start":2251.994,"end":2273.554,"text":"那我们看一下法条的生效日期透过38条之二往前生效从11月21日往前到3月21日生效它的目的是什么呢目的就要针对那个公司的涉算错误进行补救但是我们来看一下目前同样一个"},{"start":2274.916,"end":2302.257,"text":"11月21日修的16条之一的最后一项他这里说依12条第二项至第四项规定由县统筹分配给乡镇市之款项到后面他写到最后一句话应于快进年度开始前三个月通知该乡镇市那表示说纵使你将我们11月21日修正的16条之一回溯到"},{"start":2303.098,"end":2325.19,"text":"今年的3月21日生效但是最後這一項內容是一樣的那最後這一項內容一樣的話表示什麼表示在明年1月1號開始前的三個月就是今年的10月1號之前嘛那在10月1號之前我們已經足跡總署已經將這個"},{"start":2327.844,"end":2339.481,"text":"要分配給各地方的這些錢都已經告知了這裡面最後一項是解鄉鎮市倒數第二項是寫四個月前要通知各直轄市"},{"start":2341.114,"end":2358.068,"text":"那這些分配的金額都已經不可能在今年的10月1號之前或者9月1號之前分別通知各縣市或鄉鎮市所以呢縱使有38條之二的回溯適用也沒辦法改變"},{"start":2359.669,"end":2368.533,"text":"改變在今年的9月1號之前明年度各縣市所要分配的錢沒有辦法分配這345億的市值所以我再強調一次有點複雜我們"},{"start":2372.421,"end":2401.41,"text":"立法院針對今年3月21日通過的裁判法16條之一的公式涉算錯誤雖經今年11月21日的修正而且這個修正呢不只是往後生效還往前生效到今年的3月21表示3月21的公式涉算錯誤已經被11月21的新法所覆蓋了但是縱使把這個公式錯誤覆蓋但是依照16條之一的期限"},{"start":2402.31,"end":2428.309,"text":"我們對於明年各縣市 各鄉鎮市它所要分配的這些公司搜查出來的金額已經沒有辦法回顧到今年的10月1號之前或9月1號之前通知各該縣市了所以事實上目前我們法條所審的345億還是依然存在簡單講 你再怎麼把法條的生效往前回溯"},{"start":2429.298,"end":2447.752,"text":"你沒辦法改變明年已經有345億來不及在10月1號之前跟9月1號之前分別通知該縣市或各地方縣市政府所以這也是我們今天必須繼續的來進行這345億的分配的暫停條例的原因我在這裡先做一個說明"},{"start":2450.24,"end":2464.731,"text":"如果等一下委員討論就舉手那我就看一下好 那陳宇辰委員我針對這個中嘉賓市保委員我簡單的還有黃珊珊委員我可以我每個都有念 你第二個"},{"start":2466.471,"end":2487.029,"text":"我簡單的針對中間委員所提出來這個說法簡單的跟他打臉他說這個是11月21號所提出的條文但是我們在11月14號就已經把這個條文又更改了在前面就先更改我不知道是不是你11月14號沒有專心看修法的這個條文之所以在21號這個條文還是寫這樣子是因為我們在提出這個條文的時候舊的條文還是這樣子"},{"start":2493.514,"end":2519.689,"text":"11月14號是已經三讀通過但是還沒有還沒有那個公佈嘛所以還在修法的體力上必須要把舊條文按照舊條文先寫上去這個是第一點所以事實上已經已經已經把這那條就是38條前面那個16條的最後一項已經更改了你回去看一下我們那天修法的這個條文您看一下第二個就是會計年度上個月前那個已經修改了好那個已經修改第二個這個"},{"start":2522.014,"end":2538.26,"text":"根據這個統籌分配稅款的那個概念他是屬於地方款項就是要分配給地方的錢這個錢如果國庫署應該可以回答如果錢沒有分完他也不能拿去挪作他用這是事實上我曾經問過國庫署的署長所以這個錢是必須如果沒分配完也只能留在那裡那這樣的話"},{"start":2540.161,"end":2557.645,"text":"這個其實原來的公式並不是錯誤而是這個相關單位他想要我們釐清得更清楚一點他說沒有白紙黑字寫得更清楚他們不敢一直往下分配不然如果按照公式一直往下分配往下分配總是會分配完那既然要白紙黑字清楚所以我們把它你看我們這次的這個後來這個21號修正每一句每一條每一款裡頭我們都寫到不含這個這下市不含離島然後寫到離島就寫離島三縣市其實非常的清楚這理論上"},{"start":2567.867,"end":2578.113,"text":"立法不用寫得這麼繁瑣啦 那既然公務機關要假裝看不懂 我們只好一而再 再而三 寫得非常非常清楚所以今天的討論 事實上已經沒有依據了 就說這個我們11月21號通過以後還沒生效 沒錯 沒錯 我說沒有依據 沒有"},{"start":2585.137,"end":2601.549,"text":"私 私妻婦離啦 就是沒有依據但是我 我知道還沒有生效 我知道因為還沒公佈嘛 但是可以討論啦 只是說因為那天21號也好 14號也好我想鍾嘉斌委員也有在立法院院會裡頭也有參與表決 那個表決已經通過了16號之一怎麼分配給離島 這個"},{"start":2603.59,"end":2623.147,"text":"分配給這個離島這個部分 還給離島這個部分已經通過了 已經三讀通過那簡單的來講 我簡單的講一下這個暫行條例 我們對於這個不管是裡面所提出的國民年金啦 或者是作業值的10萬塊的津貼啦老人年金補到8000塊 或是這個勞保的百分之500塊這個 事實上我"},{"start":2625.669,"end":2640.578,"text":"我個人也都是相當支持的但是我覺得這麼好的福利政策用暫行條例來做只是在呼嚨百姓而已對不對 應該正式的提出一個條例我們今天修法如果可以做到這個地步我們讓它變成永久的條例不要只針對這個統籌分配稅款本來應該給離島這個345億這些想法我們覺得都非常支持我想我們這個可以到時候不然就是看民進黨要提出來一個永久的條例還是國民黨提出來民進黨歡迎共襄盛舉三個黨黨可以來共襄盛舉讓作業值今天10萬塊讓老人"},{"start":2655.746,"end":2672.293,"text":"年金這個什麼8000塊 補到8000塊這個國民年金這個500塊的這個這個補助 勞保的補助都可以實現 這一點我想我們很多在場的黨團應該都相當支持到時候 不然本席提出來的時候希望這個中加免維可以連署 謝謝好 那下一位請林德輔委員我想針對這個"},{"start":2681.992,"end":2711.086,"text":"民進黨今天所提的財政收支劃分第16條之一未分配款的運用暫行條例的草案我想站在我們國民黨團立場是如下暫行條例草案所規劃對婦女坐月子補助長輩國保年金月領加碼上班族勞退自提獎勵等對過去政府沒有注意到的"},{"start":2711.98,"end":2734.852,"text":"沒有特別照顧到的這些特定民眾給予加碼的補助以及獎勵我想站在國民黨團立場當然我們是贊成但本案在114年11月13日裁委會第八次委員會會議詢答時各部會的書面報告均未表明支持本草案的修法"},{"start":2735.672,"end":2759.479,"text":"而且當時財政部認為針對分配不完的統籌款345億本黨團與陳玉珍 陳雪珍委員都已經各自有相關提案的版本可處理而衛福部認為發放期間才一年而且經費用完就沒有了根本無法落實照顧的美意"},{"start":2760.459,"end":2779.802,"text":"所以說站在國民黨團立場我們支持本市修法的方向但是為了落實而且持續的照顧且能有穩定的裁員來挹注這個不應該用暫行條例這種方式來修法應該請行政院納入年度預算"},{"start":2780.603,"end":2802.103,"text":"中編列最快的方式就是送總預算的修正案或是用追加預算的方式讓民眾可以享受到政府持續的照顧不是只有暫行條例那個沒有意義加上本州本院在上週五11月21日院會已經三讀通過財化法第16條之一"},{"start":2806.587,"end":2833.937,"text":"第38條之二修正草案上代分配的統籌款345億元在修法後已經可以全數分配完畢給本島或離島今天暫行條例的草案的修法已經講實在話實質沒有必要那因為行政部門要求立法院三讀的法律"},{"start":2835.613,"end":2858.155,"text":"來依法行政已經沒有分配不完的統籌款可以補助以上本席建議本例修法可以討論但是就留在委員會另定期再處理即可這以上我想我們國民黨團表達得很清楚 謝謝接下來請賴世保委員"},{"start":2859.551,"end":2869.196,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進那麼首先啦這個暫行條例第五第六第七的精神我們都贊成這個照顧國保照顧這個作業值給十萬塊照顧勞退我們都贊成 統統贊成但是放錯地方啊這裡面來講因為345億是不存在的"},{"start":2884.904,"end":2898.858,"text":"我們去修法了雖然你說這個他提富裕還沒生效可是大家也知道嘛富裕來講也不會過啊你不生效他遲早會生效啊那這個法產生到一個競合的問題所以我要簡單來講第一點我要強調沒有345億這個東西沒有"},{"start":2904.625,"end":2920.189,"text":"這是假議題啊 345億 已經沒有了因為我們修法修完 不要忘了這個離島就拿 拿去了一兩百億啊這個大家都很清楚啊 根本沒有345億而且跟這個16條之一跟38條之二都清楚了這個沒有345億 這是不存在的但是第二點我要強調就是民進黨團提出這個戰刑條例的內容 主要內容"},{"start":2931.212,"end":2934.953,"text":"就是第五條第六條第七條這個精神我們絕對支持我們支持不要暫行的啦乾脆兩個方式處理第一個那就是這個16條之一裡面放進來那這個要問主計總署喔你們同意不同意這樣子那就是誰切了一塊很奇怪的一塊說我們財政收支方法是針對中央跟地方之間的關係結果你現在把它抽出來另外"},{"start":2960.001,"end":2980.729,"text":"另外照顧這三塊的一個東西那這個是一個非常奇怪的邏輯所以我要講的強調的重點是第二點要強調的就是不要暫行就永遠下去永遠下去永遠就是要國民年金就補足到八千塊最後一次給十萬"},{"start":2984.17,"end":2998.72,"text":"以及勞退再加五百塊就這樣子 永遠下去而不是暫行條例走得一字到底啦還要什麼暫行不暫行 你要是看到三百四十五億因為三百四十五億已經不存在"},{"start":2999.6,"end":3019.571,"text":"沒有345億這個東西在這裡現在要的話就是重新提修正案你要修正在這裡那就不要占行條例你就去改16條之一沒有什麼未分配的東西你就是把它寫上去看怎麼去修那這個我們可以支持但是最後一點我要強調的"},{"start":3020.939,"end":3029.365,"text":"如果真的讓你們互裔成功 我們修法不算真的有345億 那也是地方政府的錢啦那要用 怎麼用的話你怎麼就是月主帶袍 怎麼中央去替地方來決定他把它用 中央使用了 這個是中央的 國民年金中央的"},{"start":3044.977,"end":3067.753,"text":"這個要坐月子10萬塊以及這個勞退500塊這都中央的你等於是把地方要做的事情你又搶回來中央做把錢又搶回來這也是很奇怪的邏輯所以簡單來講就是我們希望這三個大的一個好的措施永久下去不要只有占星所以"},{"start":3069.516,"end":3074.93,"text":"345億是不存在的 要就是重啟修法看這放在哪裡 我們都贊成 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":3075.987,"end":3100.905,"text":"好 接下来请林思敏在位好 谢谢主席 各位委员先进我想我还是要重复我们赖斯保委员以及刚才林德福委员大家对这个暂行条例的一个意见我们对于第一条的立法目的为了要照顾我们的国民与老年退休生育时的基本经济安全而制定本条例我想这个立法目的我们都赞成"},{"start":3101.866,"end":3118.753,"text":"但是我們要看說這個經費的來源我們一直講說是因為要針對分配不完的統籌分配稅款這345億但是剛才寶哥也講得很清楚這345億根本不存在這是一個假議題"},{"start":3120.074,"end":3147.142,"text":"所以立法的一個立不法律他一定是要他的經費確實有在尤其我們之前就已經三讀通過把這345億的分配款要如何的全數分配完畢給本島和離島這個都已經在我們上週五的院會三讀通過了財化法16條之一及38條的一個修正都已經三讀通過了即便現在還沒有生效"},{"start":3148.282,"end":3163.45,"text":"但是負益還沒有行政院要提負益我們預見開天窗說亮話了負益也可能不會過所以這345億根本就不存在了而且我們還是要重申我們"},{"start":3165.131,"end":3189.962,"text":"用暫行條例的方式來定這個法律我們認為也不是很恰當就是說如果我們行政院真的要照顧我們這些不管是老人家 退休人士或者是我們作業者的這些補助要去照顧這些民眾應該是要立一個長期永久的法律而不是用暫行條例的方式來定"},{"start":3192.523,"end":3210.456,"text":"那最後我還是要重申就是我們這個錢這345億依法中央政府是不得挪作他用所以現在提這個暫行條例不管他的用途為何也是變相的挪用我想這個財政部在先前多次也已經表示了"},{"start":3210.996,"end":3229.651,"text":"所以這個到底可不可以挪用今天請財政部待會要表示財政部的一個意見所以綜合來講我想這部法律用暫行條例的方式來立法我想我們本黨團是不贊成的以上 謝謝黃珊珊委員先 接下來郭國文委員然後李燕秀委員"},{"start":3232.211,"end":3252.282,"text":"好謝謝主席我想今天這個案應該是說上禮拜通過的財化法的兩個法案是不是有漢格之處這是第一點第二個這是今天工商時報的報導他寫說我不知道是不是財政部表示中央投籌分配稅款無法分配管項屬於普通"},{"start":3254.284,"end":3270.617,"text":"統籌稅款原則上必須透過修法程序處理沒辦法用佔行條例來動用相關資金這是財政部說明那財政部也說明好才化法16之一條普通統籌稅款的分配他本身還是屬於普通統籌稅款也就是說他不是"},{"start":3276.089,"end":3301.252,"text":"可以用立法的方式去把它做相關分配更何況這個暫行條例只有這一年這一次這些錢以後也沒有了所以我們對於內容跟相關的細節主要還是法律上有衝突的部分第二就是請財政部說明你們對外的說法是不是如此我們立法院在討論一個你們也認為不能修的法律我們這樣不是有點浪費時間嗎"},{"start":3304.253,"end":3326.946,"text":"接下來請郭國文委員謝謝主席我想有這個財政收支發放法修正第16條之一的這個提案的產出最主要的原因還是在於說呢國民黨黨團跟民眾黨團第一次詳情推動修法的過程當初所造成的這個遺憾跟缺漏才會有本黨團這一次提案的內容的產生"},{"start":3328.327,"end":3348.912,"text":"就這345例當中我們所提出來的戰刑條例的方式其實反映了在相關的社會安全網的制度當中的推行過程當中有一些需要修正的一個條文當中把它列舉出來不論是在坐月子的津貼也好或者是包括勞動處境的一個字體的一個比例的一個不足也好"},{"start":3349.812,"end":3360.84,"text":"還有包括國民年金希望把它提高來強化社會安全體系的一個政策目標也好這基本上都有它制度上缺漏可以補強的地方"},{"start":3361.656,"end":3388.149,"text":"那既然剛剛那個四位國民黨團的這個委員都有提到他們希望不是用暫行的那希望用永久的那其實大家趁著這個機會來修法的時候也可以來做一個討論延伸性的討論基本上我是覺得本黨團基本上提出一個暫行條例之後發現到制度上的缺漏但也不是說只要暫行而不想要永久只是說在暫行的過程當中本來就有事辦事行的一個性質如果OK的話那當然這樣也可以永久"},{"start":3388.689,"end":3406.991,"text":"那如果说今天呢你否决了这个暂行的部分你希望永久的部分那待会儿各党团的部分也可以形成一个共同的一个附带决议来做今天修法的一个基本上一个共识让将来的部分字体的部分在制度上可以得到鼓励劳工修法字体的部分可以得到鼓励之外"},{"start":3407.632,"end":3421.856,"text":"那婦女的生產權益可以獲得一個保障那國民性的部分的社會安全體系可以加強那或許也是今天在這邊討論修法的一一之一當然在過程當中我看到許多的國民黨團委員一直強調說那個財政部的意見 處機處的意見 行政部門的意見那我覺得如果這麼尊重行政部門的意見的話那我們更應該思考整體的財政收支發生法是不是要重新來做調整"},{"start":3434.18,"end":3453.806,"text":"當所有這些部門當中提出了行政院版本的時候各位卻在程序委員會當中來進行封殺那這不是言行當中的一種矛盾嗎如果說我們期待了整個財政收支發文法的制度可以可長可久的話那或許可以請國民黨團用具體的誠意來面對這個行政院版本的財政收支發文法我先請這個李燕秀委員發言等一下再請鐘嘉斌委員"},{"start":3461.297,"end":3469.869,"text":"好 謝謝喔我聽了大家都討論很多但是我覺得回到整件事情的本質這345億到底要怎麼用我們可以 大家可以討論喔那但是"},{"start":3476.237,"end":3491.362,"text":"今年8月29号我们自己财政部的国库署当时的新闻稿就说剩下来一支345亿属于统筹税款的部分属于地方政府的财政中央不能一做他用"},{"start":3492.796,"end":3516.277,"text":"白紙黑字國庫署當時自己的新聞稿所以我覺得這個事情回到本質第一個是我覺得要釐清的第二個我們大家都知道社會福利易放難收我再一次表達無論是要做老年生活的輔助金包括對於產後津貼的照顧包括提撥這個勞退的獎勵金"},{"start":3518.178,"end":3535.813,"text":"這三件事情我全力支持我個人也都認為很重要但是是不是應該放在暫行條例包括衛福部自己都說這345億可能用一年一年半就用完了後面我錢從哪裡來要找錢這又增加另外一個問題"},{"start":3537.134,"end":3558.987,"text":"所以我們社會福利要做要把產婦照顧得更好要把老年人的生活照顧得更好把勞退補貼獎勵金我全力的支持我覺得我們應該想一個要用什麼樣的方式來編列絕對不是用戰刑條例而是未來這些政策要做"},{"start":3559.907,"end":3578.896,"text":"不是到處找錢到處挖錢看稅計剩餘有沒有錢可以再提拔100億我相信對於財主單位都是很痛苦的事情所以這件事情很重要這三件事情很重要要做我們就好好的做長長久久的做而不是用暫行條例的方式來去做處理以上是我的意見"},{"start":3579.956,"end":3608.858,"text":"如果大家有我觉得用这样编列方式我觉得是不合理的所以我建议在今天讨论之后可以的话我们就尽量留在委员会以上是我的看法谢谢我们再请总嘉宾委员好 谢谢在这里恭领我们在野党委员的高见首先还是非常感谢我们不分朝野各党派的委员对于本战行条例的精神也就是说对于要发放"},{"start":3609.338,"end":3632.391,"text":"老年生活扶助金以及产后照护津贴还有志愿提拨奖励金是给予高度的肯定我想刚刚的发言每位委员都同意这个战刑条例背后的精神就是要强化我们国民不管是产妇还是老年国民还是我们上班族都认为应该要积极的"},{"start":3633.471,"end":3648.872,"text":"對他們進行這樣的社會福利的照顧而且強調一次受照顧的國民是在全國都照顧而且都住在各縣市政府所以這筆錢你可以說是用在國民身上事實上也是用在人民地方政府的身上"},{"start":3649.565,"end":3676.586,"text":"好 再来第二点再来谈的就是底下有四点第一个有人提到暂行条例这个方法不可行提醒大家目前有一个叫做老年农民福利津贴是在1995年5月31日在李前总统登徽的时代由国民党握有多数的立法院有通过的到现在已经30年超过"},{"start":3677.567,"end":3701.435,"text":"還在繼續老年農民福利津貼暫行條例實施中目前受惠的農民有超過100萬每個月可以領8,110元還是用暫行條例在執行所以請各位委員對於暫行條例要有他的基本認識暫行條例已經暫行30年了這是我們對於老年農民的福利津貼的照顧"},{"start":3702.415,"end":3721.223,"text":"再來第二個呢剛剛有幾位委員不斷的提到轉述財政部的意見比如說部長在昨天部長的媒體報導是否符合部長的原意部長說希望呢要修法那修法是修什麼法修財化法對啊我們幾位在野的委員都說部長說得很好啊"},{"start":3721.943,"end":3736.309,"text":"那行政院院版的財政收支劃分法修得這麼好為什麼你們反對呢又提到說國庫署在今年8月29號的意見說這筆錢是中央統籌分配出去的部分中央政府不能動"},{"start":3738.339,"end":3761.173,"text":"那誰造成這個結果的是今年3月21號握有國會多數的國眾兩黨所聯手通過的如果你們口口聲聲這麼肯定財政財主行政機關的意見那麼兩黨就應該趕快支持行政院通過由財主這邊所主導完善的修正的全套的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3761.893,"end":3782.387,"text":"怎麼你們反對的時候就是說財政部說有道理那財政部要你支持院版裁劃的時候你說你要把它退回這個是太可笑了吧標準的雙標第三個我還是要釐清一下幾位委員對於我們立法院在裁劃法一修二修再修已經修得頭昏腦脹自己都搞不清楚在修什麼了"},{"start":3783.248,"end":3798.995,"text":"今天據報載行政院將提出附議的是在11月14日本院院會三讀通過的裁劃法這個裁劃法沒有包含我們今天暫行條例所要附例的16條之一跟38條之一 沒有"},{"start":3802.133,"end":3815.876,"text":"所以目前在11月14日要即將在今天前提出附議的財化法它只是針對今年3月21號的財化法不包含這個345億未分配的部分的修正"},{"start":3816.584,"end":3845.89,"text":"大家想想看14號通過的裁劃法也沒有去處理21號3月21的公司分配錯誤我們今天在討論這個11月21日通過的16條之一跟38條之二是針對3月21日通過的公司分配錯誤去修正現在3月21日通過的一個亂七八糟修的裁劃法居然有兩個補救的方式在後面追趕"},{"start":3848.231,"end":3876.578,"text":"兩個補救的一個是11月14日他修了一部分公司收到還是沒修上週3月2號通過的是專門針對公司收到去修那我們不曉得3月21日通過的那個烏龍的裁劃法後面還要兩個修正案來修正那我們怎麼知道這兩個修正案一個被行政院提出賦予了未來會不會自己立法院發現錯了要收回來"},{"start":3877.662,"end":3902.96,"text":"那么现在我们在讨论的11月21日通过的16条之一跟38条之二也还没有开始走程序还没有开始走程序不晓得韩院长送出去了没有是不是心虚觉得这样修正也不适宜我刚刚念的那一个条文的后半段其实我就要说的仓促修好会闹这种笑话我刚刚念的11月21日通过的条文的16条之一的最后两项"},{"start":3903.956,"end":3931.376,"text":"倒數第一項是在處理三個月前要通知鄉鎮市倒數第二項是四個月前要通知縣市好啦你們匆匆處處你們要讓它回溯生效你們在倒數第二項說對於縣市的分配可以不受因為修法造成的情勢變更不受那四個月的限制那請問同樣的設計你再最後一項對於鄉鎮市的通知你沒有調整啊"},{"start":3934.264,"end":3948.715,"text":"真的是丟人現眼啊倉促要修改烏龍錯誤也只修改了什麼16條之一的倒數第二項通知縣市的部分四個月前你們有說應修法形式變更不受此限制那同樣的對於鄉鎮市層級的"},{"start":3951.372,"end":3975.187,"text":"這個要三個月以前通知你沒有加說應修法的形式變更可以不受這個限制所以說真的我們的立法品質在國眾兩黨的這個堅持之下很可笑不過我是覺得這不無損及我們各位委員對於本法精神的支持所以以下具體的建議主席我們把這個條文因為現在是還沒主條我們是大體討論我建議這裡面有大家質疑的"},{"start":3979.778,"end":4006.839,"text":"有所謂的所稱未分配款那幾個條文呢其實就保留就好了第四條本條例所稱未分配款以及第八條後段本條例第四條所稱未分配款以及第十條第二項所稱未分配款如果大家對於所稱未分配款是不是有爭議有不同意見那我建議呢就是這第四條第七條"},{"start":4008.289,"end":4025.137,"text":"第四條第八條跟第十條呢有這個紫色未分配款的部分予以保留其他的第一條第二條第三條第五條第六條第七條第九條這些條款呢講的都是各位委員支持的那三個事情第一個"},{"start":4026.246,"end":4052.49,"text":"老年生活募助金第二個產後照護津貼第三個自願提交獎勵金這幾條文都是剛剛委員發言致詞的是不是建議主席在我們處理主條的時候這幾個條文就通過有爭議的保留到院會的時候看看怎麼處理搞不好我們11月14日通過的11月21日通過的後來想一想立法院又覺得不妥了又收回來了那麼這個條例就可以處理了以上"},{"start":4055.487,"end":4075.032,"text":"我們請吳秉瑞委員發言那我們委員發言完之後我們請這一個行政官員來做個答覆我就是要講這個啊這邊大家在這邊揮到底有沒有這個裁員這個錢是不是已經被用掉了還是還可以再談所謂的暫行不是指這件事情是如果這384億這一條錢真的沒有分配的話那這一個條例是在談這384億這當然是一次性的啊"},{"start":4081.773,"end":4088.159,"text":"所以我覺得還是要請行政機關就是請財政部跟請主計總處把這兩個事情剛剛大家的這個爭議"},{"start":4092.708,"end":4108.101,"text":"把他先釐清啦就以行政機關的立場的看法是什麼不然我們大家都在這裡揮揮這揮來揮去各持己見也沒有意義啊是不是請財政部跟主計總署先跟大家說明一下當然我會先尊重我們委員那委員發言之後我們再請這一個財政部還有主計總署來做一個說明"},{"start":4114.426,"end":4138.242,"text":"那不过我们今天排审这一个民进党团所提出来这一个裁判法第16条之一当初是因为在野党的这一个修法有这个疏漏所以民进党党团还提出来这一个16条之一的未分配款的一个运用的暂行条例那现在呢虽然说上礼拜有删除通过但是呢在程序还没有确定"},{"start":4138.962,"end":4166.074,"text":"之前最終的公告程序還沒有確定之前今天在排也不算是假議題都還有討論的空間剛剛聽了所有委員的發言其實對於民進黨黨船所提出來的照顧老人 照顧婦女 照顧勞工也都有這個共識只是說看等一下要怎麼樣處理會比較妥當我們先請財政部等一下阮次長等一下請主席總署陳主席長"},{"start":4172.504,"end":4190.643,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝今天排審這個案子就相關的問題就討論那剛才各位的意見我都聽到了那中委員的意見我也清楚聽得很清楚那"},{"start":4192.25,"end":4218.902,"text":"他對於我想到目前為止我認為就是跨黨派的委員對照顧弱勢這一塊是有很高度的共識只是就裁員這一部分大家有不同的想法那剛才吳委員有一個建議就是說是不是因為到底那345億到底還存不存在到底怎麼用那這一部分是不是容許我們財政部跟主席總署再來把它釐清再把它釐清這是一點"},{"start":4220.029,"end":4245.402,"text":"那第二個就是我們16條之一的修正案這一次當然修正的就是針對公事錯誤的問題來做修正那這個其實是很局部的問題所以我是蠻贊同的就是說因為現在行政院版都已經提到大院來審議那那個版本我跟各位委員報告我從當國庫署長的時候開始研擬"},{"start":4248.343,"end":4265.277,"text":"到目前為止研擬了10年我花了10年的時間我們去研擬而且每一年我們都用每一年的數據去做驗證所以非常具有穩定性那這個版本其實是考慮到各方面的因素包括城鄉的"},{"start":4266.358,"end":4291.801,"text":"垂直分配的规模的问题还有水平分配的公平性的问题能够缩小城乡的差距这一部分下了很多的功夫所以这一次我们花了很多时间我们设算了一百多个版本所以我希望能够从整体面来解决有关财政收支划分的相关的问题"},{"start":4292.489,"end":4306.594,"text":"可能這樣才能夠全面解決相關的正義這是我最大的一個邀請我們那時候提出來要你們提版本你們為什麼都不提其實是"},{"start":4309.406,"end":4335.379,"text":"你們要先站得住腳啊當初我們一直在等看你們能夠拿出來然後大家把版本拿出來大家來探討 來溝通那時候他們就跟地方政府一直在開會來溝通嗎沒有啦有嗎 開了很多會先讓市長先講完等一下再來討論如果要討論願版就趕快送進來大家願婦委趕快通過就可以來討論了市長還要補送嗎好 那這個陳主席長"},{"start":4344.492,"end":4367.64,"text":"主席各位委員大家早這裡面談到的就是主要是要運用16條之一他會分配款345億元但現在345億元又已經有另外一個那個草案也通過就是說另外一個分配那所以這兩個就會有進合就會有進合所以這個部分就是這兩個進合要怎麼處理這可能也要來討論一下"},{"start":4368.94,"end":4394.126,"text":"那另外一個如果說這個財源是沒有著落的話要必須先來爭取財源的話那依照財政紀律法裡面的規定就是提出要先去籌措財源相關的財源這個部分那不然的話就是前面的必須要跟前面的相關的條例競合的部分要先解決這樣以上沒有針對我的問題回答兩位都一樣"},{"start":4395.086,"end":4419.592,"text":"我要你回答說現在有沒有這一條錢結果你們說要釐清主席總長說這個競合我沒有來爭取裁員我剛剛在談的兩位你有沒有了解我講的問題我們今天如果針對這個暫行條例今天在討論這個法案的話第一個要先釐清的是現在到底有沒有這條錢結果你說現在還要再釐清就代表有沒有這條錢你是不確定的你作為財主單位"},{"start":4423.803,"end":4443.557,"text":"有沒有這條線你都不確定我覺得那這樣今天這個會要怎麼開下去啊來 那個是不是你們再講清楚一下針對我們講的問題你回答一下這樣子啊因為這個行政部門也表達了意見然後這個我們立委也有不同的意見現在先休息10分鐘大家來討論一下是 但是我講一下"},{"start":4603.558,"end":4609.209,"text":"好嗎 現在就和各位拿次了 留這裡了"},{"start":5848.151,"end":5871.165,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會因為剛剛在休息的時候大家也做了充分的討論行政官員也做了回應因為剛剛大家在討論不論朝野我們對於民進黨所提出來第十六條之一的暫行條例的第五條 第六條"},{"start":5872.406,"end":5901.667,"text":"还有第七条我们对于老年国民还有对于妇女产后津贴的照顾还有对于劳工的照顾这三方面的照顾大家都是有共识认为说我们政府应该要特别来照顾这三个对象所以我们对于民进党团所提出来战刑条例的第五条 第六条"},{"start":5902.327,"end":5928.197,"text":"第七条的条文都予以支持还有认同但是大家也希望整个条文的讨论能够更精确能够涵盖的范围能够更大所以我们也希望说等到我们行政院院版的财务法进来我们财政委员会之后"},{"start":5929.037,"end":5949.37,"text":"我們再來一起跟民進黨黨團的戰情條例一起再來討論希望說我們所能照顧的對象層面能夠更廣所以我們剛剛討論的共識就在這邊本次會議做如下的決議"},{"start":5951.184,"end":5963.563,"text":"財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案令則其繼續審查好那我們就散會好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585906218ab8ee743929bd93e540dfe0040ea0b20679a7fea94c8fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:43:51 - 11:53:56","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我想我們會朝這個方向看看有沒有辦法把這些我們現在遇到的這些障礙能夠把它解決啦這個部分我們就來處理我認為這真的要大家拜託正中拜託 真正的解決這個土地正義的一個問題那第二個啦 因為賴總統在上禮拜他宣布了台灣再重啟公定法案令部長 這真的是一個德政"},{"start":290.964,"end":316.176,"text":"一樣是我剛剛延續的 很多都是日本時代留下來的土地 東西政府可能太過精修 或是這個北省不去定期的土地或是說日本人留下來 然後中華民國接收過這些土地呢 基本上又透過工地放領讓實際的自耕農取得土地的所有權 這是一個德政 部長你同意吧"},{"start":318.25,"end":338.818,"text":"你同意嗎 我要講 事實上我們這次的公定放寧有一點美中不足的地方 我講我們嘉義縣的刺濕農場我們嘉義縣有一個刺濕農場在嘉義縣的第十三大名鄉這四鄉這四個鄉鎮的一個交界 面積兩千多公頃日據時代的時候 它是日本人的輝沙 蘇裕的"},{"start":343.28,"end":365.068,"text":"在民國22年26年的時候就昭和12年他遺傳給一個日本人叫做赤獅出太郎在民國33年的時候昭和19年由他的兒子赤獅大戒雄雄就是戒神的意思意思就是他繼承了這個土地那這樣的一個土地在當時就租給了很多的"},{"start":366.048,"end":393.981,"text":"百姓在這裡租用,然後他們就從事農作啦,他可能在那裡種椪柑種鳳梨,我們知道說現在民雄這麼鳳梨最出名的大概就是在一個刺濕農場這一塊地方那這樣的一個刺濕農場,基本上他就是他比較廣廣海平面不到100公尺,海平面沒有到100公尺但是他比較有坡度,他可能坡度差不多5%"},{"start":395.702,"end":419.848,"text":"不然都15%以下啦 就是說它屬於緩坡 二級坡以下像這樣的一個二級坡在這一次的公定範齡 如果以我現在的理解大概沒有在這一次範齡的範圍你看它這個土地基本上是平的 它就是比較高它這裡的土地比較高的平地可是它基本上是平的 都是緩坡都是緩坡 都5% 差不多5%這裡"},{"start":422.188,"end":443.441,"text":"結果卻無法被放零 這2000多公頃真的是美中不足啦那部長這部分能不能再重新評估一下像這樣的一個赤獅農場這裡的土地雖然是被編列為山坡地那甚至說有很多在林班地的地方雖然是沙窟 但是它一樣是環坡啊"},{"start":445.321,"end":459.807,"text":"像這種這種緩坡就是十五山的坡度大概在15%以下的就二級坡以下的基本上都不會變成說你們所擔心的水土保持的狀況那既然是緩坡的話是不是我們可以也一樣開放讓他工地放寧了"},{"start":460.37,"end":482.333,"text":"好 謝謝委員我其實在前兩天才找我們同仁討論那現在第一階段我們在處理這些工地放擬是根據內政部或是財政部的那個國有工地的放擬的辦法或是邊際的養殖用地的放擬的辦法去處理的那處理當然有個前提就是65年9月24號之前已經有一些放租的一個實況"},{"start":483.194,"end":509.733,"text":"那更重要就是它也不能影響到那個水源的涵養國土的保安或者是自然的保育的部分那我在這邊也跟委員報告第一階段是處理平地的部分第二階段就會處理波地的部分山坡地的部分因為山坡地本身根據三保條例裡面的山坡地也有一個放零辦法法已經在那邊了但是因為考量到山坡地有一些自災的風險那我已經請同仁去做仔細的"},{"start":510.633,"end":535.41,"text":"套圖就是說把這些可能的移農移牧用地它沒有安全餘地沒有影響到自然這個自然的保育的部分我們先把它盤出來然後再跟內政部來討論部長可能就麻煩盤一下這個部分我們會持續來處理就是說沒有影響到這一個有危險的一個問題的話那既然它就是我剛才說的反撲嘛那也沒有影響到這個水源地的話我說這部分"},{"start":536.431,"end":558.759,"text":"因為平地的話比較容易處理 上坡地因為它的地形的關係可能更需要仔細的盤點才能夠去做處理好 保證我再問最後一個 我們破住的八坪市場啦因為我們人拆掉已經過五年了 當然因為都還沒開始蓋我們現在縣政府願意承擔責任來蓋來蓋的話 但是拖越久那個新本路等的 現在"},{"start":560.099,"end":578.426,"text":"併購起來可能要35億,要靠我來興建部長這部分是不是...這個我想我們持續在行政院做溝通喔那原則上我們是希望他能夠蓋好但是他的經費從20億變成35億因為物價的關係嘛,還有原物料的部分增加變28啦,然後因為又時間又拖到了,又變35啦所以我覺得我們不要再拖,這越拖越快去"},{"start":582.788,"end":604.626,"text":"我想我們已經跟行政院說明了這個部分然後我們盡快的希望說能夠爭取到一些經費來支持就三四五億就不要再拖因為真的拖越久預算越高這個我也非常清楚然後我們因為我們把人家拆了已經很多人都這個我知道台低業整個都不方便就持續這麼久我們趕快解決這件事好不好好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"165988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea3958158592c868e130a6eef06bd93e540dfe0040ee5bf4d6e41f0393142ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:42:27 - 10:51:14","影片長度":"00:08:47","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我想請陳部長請陳部長我也好"},{"start":10.865,"end":27.392,"text":"部長早安非洲豬瘟到現在已經超過一個月了但是我們看到昨天韓國也爆發了今年第六起的非洲豬瘟的疫情他們將全國禁應48小時我必須告訴部長這真的非常嚴重我們從"},{"start":32.734,"end":57.133,"text":"10月22號起這個活豬禁運禁載然後同時禁止廚餘餵豬那這個疫調結果也顯示為落實這個廚餘真主就養豬用廚餘養豬這件事情是疫情爆發的主要原因這個您同意嗎 對不對對 我們疫調結果是這樣子對 那我想要請問一下禁止廚餘養豬這個措施目前有要調整嗎"},{"start":58.403,"end":80.03,"text":"我想第一個部分就是大方向我先講大方向因為我們大概後面還有很多細節要處理第一個部分就是我們在禁止以後如果要重新開放我已經說過要符合落實證書及時監控跟法令以外地方政府要同意然後大方向的料源的部分我們會先針對家戶除以做禁止"},{"start":80.27,"end":90.119,"text":"那為什麼剛剛媒體都在報導說農業部打算在12月初開始有新的廚餘政策要開放事業廚餘呢我說的是禁用家戶廚餘然後因為"},{"start":97.54,"end":110.019,"text":"廚藝養豬必須要有一個過渡期所以你現在是在告訴我說事業廚餘裡面應該是不會有非洲豬瘟我覺得所有的防疫都是用風險的角度然後家務廚餘的風險是最高的你現在是在幫"},{"start":111.551,"end":122.116,"text":"事業廚餘背書說他不可能是破口嗎我跟委員說明你不要用這種方式去影射我只強調我強調就是說我禁用家務廚餘然後第二個部分就是我還沒有講完我還沒有講完我還沒有講完可不可以讓我講完"},{"start":132.12,"end":151.598,"text":"你講第一個部分在過渡期的話我們會禁用家務廚藝因為廚藝養豬轉型需要一點時間然後最後我們會有個落日期就是全面禁用家務廚藝那預計什麼時候全面禁用因為預計禁用的部分可能跟後面的這些廚藝的再利用的部分我們在跟環境部正在討 正在處理部長"},{"start":152.239,"end":163.711,"text":"我必須要提醒您您是農業部的部長保障保護這些豬農才是你的第一要務為什麼你要把環境部的責任全部攬在你身上呢環境部怎麼樣處理廚餘是他的問題怎麼會你要幫他處理呢如果照委員這樣講農業部的立場之前就非常清楚了是原則禁止"},{"start":175.99,"end":201.178,"text":"然後你有落實徵主的條件的時候由地方政府發許可所以所有的開放廚餘是由地方政府去核發的你的意思是說那現在你說這些事業廚餘那要怎麼辦呢你現在是說你要開放事業廚餘是嗎我是說禁用家戶廚餘那你要開放事業廚餘嗎在過渡期的話它是可以使用要落實徵主"},{"start":202.702,"end":211.684,"text":"所以你就是要開放廚餘養豬的意思嗎我先問你一個問題過渡期是多久過渡期是多久我們還在討論我們大方向已經有了現在就是說在處理這個時間點這個在時間點我們必須再跟環境部然後我們還會再跟縣市政府的首長去做溝通我先舉一個例子好不好 部長"},{"start":229.468,"end":241.449,"text":"假設 我想要請問一下事業廚餘是有包括餐廳嗎餐廳跟那個團散的部分都是屬於事業廚餘"},{"start":242.449,"end":256.062,"text":"所以餐廳好了 假設我這餐廳的廚餘桶好 廚餘桶放在外面然後我隔壁鄰居把他的家戶廚餘拿來倒你有辦法分辨嗎你沒有辦法分辨嘛這個源頭分類就沒有辦法100%監控嘛我現在就告訴你說 假設我們還會有落實真主的即時監控"},{"start":266.511,"end":271.533,"text":"那你現在是在因為你知道嗎因為這8%的廚餘養豬不全面禁止的話就是其他的92%的飼料養豬戶都要一起承擔這非洲豬瘟的風險"},{"start":281.716,"end":287.678,"text":"是2000億產值的整個產業鏈欸你現在是要讓我們做半套的意思嗎就你說交互廚餘禁止然後你要開放事業廚餘你怎麼有辦法保證我說過了我們在過渡期是這樣處理過渡期是多久嘛過渡期的過渡的時間還要看後面的交互是多久嘛你至少給我們三年嗎 十年嗎"},{"start":308.069,"end":330.604,"text":"我們明確了以後就會對外說明那是什麼時候會明確嗎因為你今天都已經接受記者訪問了今天我們本身我就講個大方向一個就是加護廚藥禁用第二個我們會有弱智條款就是這樣子弱智條款所以那我想要請問說是不是假設這個事業廚餘真的去養豬了然後再發生非洲豬瘟誰要負責"},{"start":333.41,"end":348.864,"text":"我們所有的你沒有要負責嘛對不對我告訴你你也沒有要負責啊你也覺得跟你沒有關係啊反正農民的死活是他們家的事啊所有的廚餘再利用是由地方政府核發的我們會跟桃園市政府溝通我們會跟新北市政府溝通"},{"start":350.49,"end":353.793,"text":"對他們本身所以你的意思是說你要開放然後他們也開放如果假設開放如果有破口有這個非洲豬瘟在產生你現在在告訴我說跟你農業部沒有關係是不是"},{"start":365.205,"end":377.452,"text":"我從來沒有講這句話喔 那否則誰要負責假設 假設 假設 假設再爆發我問你 假設再爆發 你要不要下台負責你今天如果同意 你今天如果同意說再爆發你願意下台負責 那我也沒有話說我也沒有話說 如果你是願意負責的 我沒有話說但是你願意負責嗎"},{"start":390.458,"end":398.846,"text":"你現在是在跟我掛保證嗎我沒有 我不會讓它發生你說這些失業廚餘不會變成破口假設變成破口再發生誰要負責你現在告訴我我告訴你 防疫是中央跟地方一起的責任對啊 那跟你沒有關係嗎當然有關係啊是不是你政策 你要先做出政策啊我政策講得非常清楚啦你的政策"},{"start":414.98,"end":423.085,"text":"這就是要開放事業廚餘嘛我現在要求你說你如果可以保證說這不會是破口的話如果是破口如果假設廚藝養豬又發生非洲豬瘟爆發你要負責嗎你願意負責嗎沒有我知道是負責我問你嘛你願意負責嗎你可以下台嗎你下台也救不了這些豬農"},{"start":442.458,"end":451.205,"text":"你知道你做的這個決定 影響多少人嗎我跟委員說明喔 防疫是中央政府一起努力的是 可是你願意 你願意允許 允許事業廚餘這是在防疫嗎 這是在防疫嗎我跟你講 非都豬瘟的你現在告訴我說 事業廚餘不會是破口"},{"start":464.761,"end":471.124,"text":"你聽一聽你自己相信嗎我說風險我現在就告訴你說你自己相信嗎他說風險的高低他是零風險嗎風險有高有低沒有零的那他是高還是低我告訴你我就聽你說家務廚餘是低的家務廚餘是高的事業廚餘是低的"},{"start":481.288,"end":496.355,"text":"但他也是有風險啊我現在就問你說假設這個是破口假設他變成破口你要不要負責如果委員今天到中國去或是其他地方到養殖場再進來的話也有可能傳播所以你在講什麼東西我在跟你講什麼東西你在跟我講什麼東西你頭腦清楚好好想一想說這個非洲豬瘟"},{"start":503.478,"end":507.262,"text":"會影響多少人的生計會有多少人的死活因為你開放事業廚餘被影響我現在就告訴你你要記得這是你的責任如果有人因為非洲豬瘟爆發家破人亡就是你的責任中央跟地方政府的防疫是要一起的好"}]}},{"id":"165987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859df0b6dc59e987551bd93e540dfe0040ee5bf4d6e41f0393142ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:55:28 - 10:05:02","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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麻煩請教育部衛福部"},{"start":20.076,"end":41.666,"text":"請衛福部次長還有教育部兩個單位兩個就好我想說這個有關於在學校園裡面對於這個有可能這種普選少年他們的人權跟教育以及其他可能會被普選少年所影響到的老師或同學這個中間"},{"start":42.927,"end":65.166,"text":"彼此的權利這麼拿捏啦這一直是一個我覺得嚴肅而且難解的課題啦那當然我覺得目前少年或者是已經有犯法這些少年的人權重要可是在教育的現場我們應該看的是說那其他想要好好在學校受教育的這些同學不想被干擾的同學他們的受教權呢"},{"start":65.846,"end":86.014,"text":"還有老師會不會因為有一些少年在學校裡面的影響導致班級的經營或者是在教學上面會受到很大的干擾呢這個教育部跟衛福部應該要去也要針對這個問題去做解決我看到教育部洋洋灑灑的講了很多方案衛福部也是譬如說教育部講說"},{"start":87.435,"end":107.227,"text":"你們會針對偏差的行為做輔導例如說會提供一些中途的教育資源嘛比如說慈輝班比如說資源室中途班這裡面報告寫的我再請教慈輝班主要的提供是不是那些可能比較弱勢家庭"},{"start":108.24,"end":120.054,"text":"或者是中措之餘嘛支援是中途班是不是也是中措幫助他回到學校之前先適應一下對吧"},{"start":121.034,"end":144.824,"text":"過度性教育措施嗎對這個部分的話可能會有比較涉及到他可能會有偏差行為那會對其他的師生回到學校之後會有比較是安全之餘的會是在過度性的教育措施所以他是比如說你怎麼去認定他有可能會去傷害別人是他曾經犯過法"},{"start":145.751,"end":155.897,"text":"曾經犯過法或是什麼情況之下去認定所以先讓他去這個中途班然後適應一段時間之後再回到學校那是怎麼認定這些人這些同學"},{"start":157.33,"end":179.562,"text":"如果是到那個過渡性教育措施的話他會有一個個案的評估會議那也有一部分有可能是會需要跟調法官或是少年保護官那邊再做一些所以這已經進入到司法的部分了嗎42 上司法第42條所以是已經進入到司法的部分"},{"start":180.623,"end":207.888,"text":"所以因此我們對於那些就是想要好好讀書的小朋友的保護想好好讀書不想要受到目前少年干擾的保護現在必須要目前少年他可能已經進入到司法的程序也就是說他已經進入到犯罪的行為了才有可能會進入到這個中途的教育機制對不對否則就是說他可能是因為某種原因家庭因素或什麼個人因素中錯"},{"start":209.229,"end":238.542,"text":"但中錯不代表他會影響別人他可能只是說他跟不上現在的教育所以去中途班教育先學一下 銜接再回到校園嘛所以其實這個裡面衍生出一個問題啦就如果有一些青少年或學生他可能有加入幫派他可能在學校一直比如說霸凌或者是在上課搗蛋被記了非常多大過你現在沒有辦法強制他去中途班對吧"},{"start":240.7,"end":266.177,"text":"這個裡面還有一個輔導機制是少年輔導委員會我們也會跟警政那邊聯繫然後警政有用嗎我會這樣子講就是因為現在校園充斥太多類似這樣我剛講的狀況而且現在的機制是無法解決的你說你有跟那個警政署有聯繫你看你們後面還講說怎麼防止他們參與犯罪"},{"start":267.014,"end":274.373,"text":"比如說如果他疑似參加不良組織都會依通報輔導有用嗎通報給警政署警察單位"},{"start":275.666,"end":302.522,"text":"是不是其實後續也會有一些輔導輔導有用嗎比如說我們提供高關懷的課程然後讓他效果都很有限啊然後你們提到說會加強那個校園安全的宣導譬如說校安通報防患於未然但問題是有校安人力嗎我在我了解的狀況是有些學校只要譬如說一個學生去霸凌霸凌另外一個同學那個校假設他有一個校安人力因為我確定在"},{"start":303.762,"end":322.274,"text":"一直在爭取國中的校園人力嘛一個 一個而已喔那個校園人力面對到一個霸凌其他的同學的那個霸凌者他就要花很多的時間在那個霸凌者身上所以如果再增加其他的曝險少年的話這個人力是非常不足的啦然後再來啊"},{"start":323.683,"end":349.743,"text":"那個衛福部的報告裡面也有寫到說112到113年服務了大概一千零五位具有偏差行為的一個青少年然後說要幫助他們提升家庭功能有提升的嗎包委我們這個部分齁我們有一個寧靜少年的一個輔導方案這個主要是衛福部他補助各地方政府補助嘛各地方政府對但是因為你有補助所以算你的業務嘛要提升的嘛"},{"start":350.263,"end":373.158,"text":"包圍他們這部分他們會結合那個地方的NGO跟NPO我問你效果嘛你不要一直告訴我做法我問你效果嘛 提升了嗎包圍那個所以衛福部只是把錢花下去不會管他的效果我們當然有做一些相關的一些所以提升大家的家庭功能了嗎因為現在有很多在學校會影響別人讀書的那些青少年很多都是家庭"},{"start":374.278,"end":396.952,"text":"爸媽不管啊所以現在在學校裡面很多老師覺得說這些家庭是不是可以把爸媽把這小孩領回去啊當然大家會站在這個小朋友的教育的角度會覺得這樣子可能不OK因為他還是有受教育的權利但是代表說你們衛福部補助所謂提升家庭功能這個做法達不到效果嘛"},{"start":398.058,"end":421.417,"text":"包圍那個的地方他們的回饋基本上認為就是說效果很有限啦如果今天效果這麼你可以去了解一下啦如果說這個效果這麼有的話為什麼每個學校常常都會發現同學被霸凌或老師被欺負現在老師都不敢管學生啦老師很多都消磨熱忱的啦你們會不會去了解一下"},{"start":421.997,"end":444.219,"text":"所以今天雖然我們是排的是比較偏司法面但是我覺得教育部衛福部更應該重視的是那些少年他沒有到犯法的時候還沒有到犯法的時候但他其實已經這個邊緣了而且他在學校就是會影響別人那這個部分的輔導機制處理機制在哪裡這也是一個很嚴重的問題啊"},{"start":446.246,"end":468.276,"text":"所以是不是 針對這個部分包委我們就跟教育部這邊我想重點像您所說應該主要是他的家庭失能的問題這個部分我們會朝這個方向來努力我剛講這個算是一個問題缺口目前你們的機制我看不到有解決的方案出來請針對這個部分去做一個研究啦好的 謝謝好 感謝月圓之吻"}]}},{"id":"165975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea39581585976926bf41593bf71bd93e540dfe0040ea0b20679a7fea94c0fcb2c0d88e7dc125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:22:16 - 11:28:23","影片長度":"00:06:07","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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國產署的法律跟我們那個農業部的法律他基本上有一些競合那你沒有法律耶 剛剛說部長你有聽清楚剛剛那個是沒有法律的計畫也是一種行政的一個作為"},{"start":368.484,"end":394.314,"text":"行政作為拿來管理我們所有的人民你今天如果你的行政作為可以讓財團在那裡開發這樣的土地我跟委員不要大聲齁我們可以好好的講我願意來檢討今天我跟你講今天如果民意沒有辦法表達的時候如果沒有大聲我相信政府聽不到因為我今天早上聽到你說這些都不納入去討論的時候我真的非常非常的憤慨尤其代表人民"},{"start":397.495,"end":404.763,"text":"委員會裡面是不是要進到討論是由立法院的委員會決定不是我來決定我們只是建議我們是建議不要排審今天你是農業單位的一個很重要的一個大家長"},{"start":412.312,"end":433.247,"text":"今天這個議題如果非常重要他如果對人民的財產還有人民的權利是有保障的是應該要被照顧的你們應該要積極爭取我們之前也跟林業保育署其實也提過很多次我們希望可以適時的修法你今天不是對他們特別優待他們早就在那裡你今天"},{"start":436.73,"end":463.045,"text":"我們賴總統都已經說要工地放零我們有很多的土地政策都已經在放寬你今天都可以同意讓財團在這裡蓋這麼大的量體都可以在那裡賺錢沒有理由讓我們原來的啃農或者我們原來的農民做這樣的犧牲尤其他們的房子一棟一棟被這樣的拆除這個部分部長是不是可以同意跟林業保育署可以可不可以朝這樣的方向去做努力我想我們"},{"start":463.985,"end":472.788,"text":"我如果可以政策決定不需要任何法律我馬上就同意了沒有 法律由立法院來通過嘛部長聽我講完我們現在今天特別提出來是不是你認為像這些啃農或像這些我們原居住的這些農民其實他們在財產的保護上面是不是我們可以給他一個法源依據這就是我們今天要修這個增訂這一條法的一個重要的一個目的嘛"},{"start":492.256,"end":509.69,"text":"那農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力早期日據實在這個都不是問題因為杭照讀在71年的部分現在要處理是71到82年之間的部長你顯然對這個問題沒有很認真的去了解過今天如果是這樣部長請聽我講完"},{"start":517.737,"end":521.781,"text":"請你解決所有農民的問題今天我們要說的是如果我代表農民來對你做一個懇求今天如果你可以獨厚財團也希望你們可以照顧農民今天很多人因為這樣自殺很多人看著房子被拆掉以後無家可歸請你們用這樣的心情"},{"start":546.141,"end":560.589,"text":"去看待這樣子的一個居住在那裡的農民可不可以我們現在要求的就是希望你可以去做檢討去幫助可以嗎可以去檢討我們可以來檢討所以我說過在前幾個委員說過我們一定很務實的來檢討我剛才說了如果沒有一些特殊的原因"},{"start":570.854,"end":575.418,"text":"好很抱歉如果部長願意檢討願意幫忙我們所有的這些原來的墾農跟住民我對剛才拍桌子對你抱歉我們希望我們農業部還有林業署真的可以去體諒這些原來住在那誰要住在這樣的山上啊就是他必須他們長久的都在那裡安身立命希望給他們一個機會希望有機會做這樣的修法"},{"start":600.697,"end":611.514,"text":"而且這個必須要有你們提出因為行政院可能不會去通盤的去了解到這麼多有你們去提出來才可以有效的去達成好不好"}]}},{"id":"165986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0f4b7ea395815859cfda61d0654f9e2ebd93e540dfe0040ee5bf4d6e41f03931cb8972f08e7de1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:14:12 - 11:22:02","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n三、\t本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、\t本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n五、\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n六、\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n七、\t本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n八、\t本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n九、\t本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、\t本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。\n十一、\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、\t本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、\t本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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请陈部长请陈部长部长今天我们特别排了这个森林法的修正草案"},{"start":21.089,"end":46.467,"text":"那最重要的方向就是要来遏止这个盗财这个盗伐的这个问题还有就是故意种火森林种火的这个行为最重要就要提高这个法源来嚇阻这个作用那在森林娱乐区跟我们自然的保护区的这个喂养喂食野生动物这个方面的话我们却没有这个法则哦"},{"start":46.887,"end":53.517,"text":"所以我要本行想請教部長那如果說在餵養野生動物的時候會發生哪些問題"},{"start":55.788,"end":84.042,"text":"第一個部分就是你餵食野生動物的時候可能會造成一些野生動物除了野生動物以外還有一些可能的家犬或者其他進去會造成野生動物跟一般的家犬會造成一些衝突第二個部分就是其實野生動物就應該自然覓食你如果去餵養的時候會導致一些可能在我們在人在爬山的過程中它就會接近我們的人會造成一些更大的一個危害"},{"start":84.922,"end":106.966,"text":"還有一些疾病的傳播也會是 部長最重要是說近年來許多民眾出外踏青那我們看到一些野生動物像猕猴還是松鼠野鳥的部分他們來覓食覓食之後的話就讓這些動物會喪失了覓食的這個能力太過於依賴我們人類那但是人跟動物之間就會產生了這個衝突跟這個競爭的這個"},{"start":112.821,"end":126.637,"text":"爭議衝突的時候這個情況的話我們要保護人類的話所以我們在這個很多的法都有規範在像一般在我們地方的話像就公園的自治管理條例會去規範說禁止餵養"},{"start":127.478,"end":146.511,"text":"那我们国家管理法的话国家公务员管理法它也是有规范但是我们的森林法对于这个森林游乐区跟自然保护区里面就没有这个规范有这个落差那所以我们希望说我们在这个森林法这边就可以要强调一下把它规范进去补这个漏洞您支持这个"},{"start":147.071,"end":162.572,"text":"我想基本上我們絕對支持也尊重委員的這些提議因為很多委員提到那我在這邊也跟委員說明當初我們這個修法的版本是為了山林的壓力一些生態壓力但是因為行政部門的這些法律的修正的時候"},{"start":164.333,"end":188.923,"text":"會經過非常多的程序但是這幾年來又有更多的這些環境的壓力或是您剛才講的餵養的壓力來的時候我們沒辦法就是說再退回來再重新修正所以委員在提案的時候我想我們一定會尊重跟支持基於我們要保護動物的健康跟民眾的安全這個漏洞我們必須把這規範補上來好不好好 接下來要跟部長提的就是我們10月22號這個非洲"},{"start":192.402,"end":213.505,"text":"這個非洲這個豬瘟這個疫情的發生之後的話我們看這個情況可能是單一的個案那可能就是這個我們除以沒有高溫氣增阻而產生的那現在請問一下因為我們已經解除這個禁運了但是這個除以這個法令並沒有解除那大概有明確的時間什麼時候解除嗎"},{"start":214.738,"end":229.423,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在如果要處理廚餘養豬是不是非副廚餘養豬這個部分我之前有說過了必須要落實徵組然後落實監控完整的立即的監控還有法令的部分特別是罰款的部分會處理然後還有一個地方政府"},{"start":230.103,"end":258.266,"text":"同意但是料源的部分因為我們大方向會有一個有一個落日條款有個落日那這個落日期間的過渡期間是讓我們的豬農出養豬戶有一個轉型的機會那轉型的輔導我們農業部已經準備好相關的方案的部分那我們在這個過渡期間會禁止家戶廚餘進到所謂的因為家戶廚餘是風險最高的部分我們是從風險的角度來處理就要加強管理跟守護這個"},{"start":259.207,"end":281.104,"text":"我們廚餘不要再發生這個有問題那部長你提到說未來會循序漸進有家庭廚餘跟我們事業廚餘你會先禁止這家庭廚餘那未來事業廚餘的部分的話你們也會循序漸進但是我們為了這個廚餘要禁止的話很多方面的各層各面都要去考量到但原規正傳"},{"start":281.844,"end":311.04,"text":"这就会增加猪农的成本对不对这个成本很高啊因为大部分的飼料都是黄小玉吧吃黄小玉的成本的话这部分的话我们未来对这个飼料的补助会继续呢我想在这个禁止期间我们会我们已经在从事这个这个价差的一个补贴了然后后续如果要转型成飼料的时候我们会给予一个飼料的转型的这些费用包括它的飼料的这些生产的基本的设备我们也会给予补助"},{"start":311.52,"end":315.241,"text":"我們有一個比114年還優渥的一個方案所以還是繼續飼料補助了解清他們營運的壓力對不對對 就是過渡期我們會來處理這個部分還有就是你的廚餘未來的廚餘廚餘跟我們現在的環境也跟民眾非常有關係如果說這個廚餘有很多種除了餵豬以外它還可以做發電或堆肥"},{"start":335.168,"end":356.626,"text":"那現在目前來講的話在台中跟我們桃園這邊的話就發電的這個設備那還有多堆肥的話在台南的話有兩個區域叫新化跟晨溪這個有高速廚餘的發酵場但是未來你要全面禁止廚餘的情況下你循序漸進這些設備你都是要去把建置好來吧"},{"start":357.635,"end":385.493,"text":"我想這個就是我們跟環境部所一直在討論的部分您剛才講到一個重點就是說禁止廚餘養豬這個部分我想農業部的一個職責但是在考慮到它的時程的時候必須考慮到廚餘如果沒有妥占處理會造成環境的壓力那這個部分像您所在的桃園市政府桃園市的部分本身是廚餘養豬大戶所以我們怎麼樣讓它有系統的轉換成飼料的部分是我們一直關切的"},{"start":386.013,"end":401.673,"text":"所以部長我們希望說你可以再跟環境部進行跨部會的討論加強這廚藝可以能源化跟我們肥料化這兩方面的層面來運用我所知道環境部一直在積極的規劃這個部分是 這才可以徹底解決問題"},{"start":402.994,"end":420.319,"text":"因為你加強這個能源的話又可以發電但是現在大部分你在禁止廚餘的時候這些都放到焚化爐去閃燒這不是長久之計啦因為焚化爐是燒垃圾的所以我們希望你未來的話在這廚餘能源化跟這個肥料化這兩方面要加強這個廠製的這個設置才能去"},{"start":424.18,"end":449.8,"text":"確實的解決這些問題才能夠解決民眾的疑慮跟我們整個環境整個整體的關鍵好不好這需要大家一起來努力然後我們也會跟環境部特別是進到焚化爐的部分那基本上它如果跟垃圾混在一起的時候大概10%是可以的但是相對的混在一起的話以現在的我所知道的資訊大概10%那現在只有3%那相對的就是除於要進到焚化的部分"},{"start":450.561,"end":468.183,"text":"可能跟水分也有关系所以前端的从厨余的收取要有一个重新的设计所以我们还是要分开来对 还是要分流限时中心来发电或者是说我们来堆肥等等这些都可以解决对 这也是我们一直在讨论的地方好 那就加油好 谢谢谢谢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}