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負額36萬你說我18萬 來扣18萬有的要請兩位他是不得已才會請外勞你用長照來抵我跟你講 請外勞的比長照多你像這個樣子"},{"start":2157.765,"end":2170.59,"text":"難道他希望說我來找外勞來照顧這些兩個老的嗎他也不希望這是不得已的不得已你說我付了那麼多錢你不讓我來扣這個講實在話是沒有道理的"},{"start":2171.661,"end":2198.657,"text":"對不對 我上次老早就很提過我說你一年要讓他扣36萬那上次大概有一些想法就是說扣18萬再提高一些啦我不是說全然反對但是你講實在話你給人家扣人家一年付了36萬你認為他是喜歡說我來請個外勞來照顧老的他是不得已之下才會這樣做"},{"start":2200.186,"end":2212.498,"text":"對不對像我剛剛就舉給署長聽我的三哥現在兩個老的都失智請兩個啦一年就要付七十幾萬光給他吃飯不算"},{"start":2213.527,"end":2222.372,"text":"對不對那你說你一個扣18萬兩個人也只不過扣36萬那實際上他是負70幾萬對不對我認為不是說我是為那些長輩長者這個來講話而且一個家庭誰願意說"},{"start":2236.197,"end":2250.795,"text":"這個動作都靈敏 腦筋清楚他願意來請常外勞來照顧不可能嘛 對不對但是不得已之下很無奈才要請他們來照顧所以說我希望大家拿著良心出來"},{"start":2252.317,"end":2265.491,"text":"我是比較務實其實我很少對這方面有去要求但是有一天有一個人跟我講說他家裡也是兩個兩個外勞就是因為一個照顧一個你說"},{"start":2268.615,"end":2291.823,"text":"你照顧一個一年最少在他們身上就要花七十幾萬兩個要花七十幾萬光給薪水 吃飯還不算那你七十幾萬結果你讓他扣那麼一點講實話對他們那些不公平那是無奈之下才要請外勞來照顧他要是好手好腳 腦筋清楚難道他希望找外勞來照顧嗎不可能啦"},{"start":2292.603,"end":2315.136,"text":"我一個老岳母91歲那時候我老岳丈走的時候我說留下來照顧你好不好他說不要我自己可以動可以腦筋清楚我自己可以手腳靈活他不願意請外勞那是無奈之下才會去請所以說大家研究看看 謝謝好 謝謝我們是不是下一位李坤城委員請"},{"start":2317.126,"end":2321.641,"text":"謝謝主席那其實聖誕節快到了大家都希望當聖誕老公公"},{"start":2323.332,"end":2352.435,"text":"但是因為上次我們有一個協商的共識其實我們也知道說長照對於家庭來講是會有一筆負擔所以我們把長照的扣除我們把它從12萬提高到18萬我自己的版本是25萬可是大家就是討論一下就覺得說我們從12到18其實也增加了6萬塊不無小補當然如果說像您的副委員講的這樣子就是說我支付多少你就要扣除多少這種情況也不可能他是無賴之選"},{"start":2353.415,"end":2381.818,"text":"對 每個人家有一本難念的經每個人難道家裡好好的當然所以我們是設想到是每一個家庭就是說不論它是怎麼樣那至少有這一個基本扣除我們把它提高到18萬那如果說今天大家講好的這個共識然後這個因為有新的委員的版本的進來然後又把之前的共識推翻掉我是覺得說這樣子是比較不妥那是尊重委員頭"},{"start":2386.58,"end":2411.665,"text":"也尊重一下我們已經協商好的這個共識我覺得這樣子所以我們有提高到18萬有提高到18萬所以說如果大家覺得說這個有必要還要再做提升的話那我覺得也要顧慮一下因為就是說複稅署他可能有他自己的一些立場"},{"start":2412.165,"end":2422.012,"text":"那就我們來講 那因為我也很想說那除了這一個長照扣除額之外我是不是其他的扣除額這是無奈之下才有對啦 我知道啦"},{"start":2425.359,"end":2443.165,"text":"對啦 我知道啦我知道你的立場啦那就是說那不是說每個家庭我們政府都有辦法把他們所用的 對那以後這個扣除我認為可能還會再增加因為我們已經進入超高齡社會了啦那是不是今年就先這樣用"},{"start":2444.785,"end":2473.834,"text":"每年都超增然后超增你就是让这些人多扣抵一点他确实有那个支柱就是有这个需要所以我们才会把长照扣除了把它剪掉好 我们现在会请黄先生问一件好 谢谢主席我想我们上次虽然有讨论过不过大家对于这个长照一直都有不同的意见那因为长照最近又发生了那个妈妈把孩子"},{"start":2474.963,"end":2498.796,"text":"我覺得那個杯葛會一直發生的原因並不是我們長照金額不夠而是我們沒有做好所有的工作啦那但是長照問題不會只是不亞於少子化的問題那現在的問題在於說剛剛林德福委員講其實我們家也有請外勞當然一個家庭18萬其實真的是不夠請個外勞那為什麼要請外勞呢是不是長照"},{"start":2499.912,"end":2518.582,"text":"3.0的涵蓋範圍不夠或者說家庭實在沒有辦法照顧我覺得還是回到整個長照政策的問題當然扣除而是一個幫助那中華民國家庭照顧者關懷協會它是調查的部分是超過50%的家庭每個月額外支出大概是兩萬元"},{"start":2519.662,"end":2527.768,"text":"也就一年大概是24萬這最基本的50%的家庭所以50%的家庭然後7.63%的家庭每個月照顧花費超過4萬這大概就是有請外勞的家庭所以我們民眾黨的立場當然是希望長期來說應該是比照日本 韓國 德國從長照保險制度的方式來進行但在還沒有之前"},{"start":2543.499,"end":2550.301,"text":"只能用稅賦的方式來減免那稅賦的減免的部分12萬、18萬那台灣民眾黨的版本是20萬那剛剛兩位委員其實講的都一樣就是我們到底要先用哪個方法來解決他們的問題但是可能這個還是沒辦法解決問題你給他18萬、給他20萬給他36萬、給他40萬他還是會發生長照被割這才是政府可能要去面對的問題當然財政委員會只能處理"},{"start":2568.963,"end":2588.258,"text":"稅負的減免那稅負減免的部分我們這邊20萬跟18萬差距其實不大了但現在像林委員或者是其他委員希望再提高的話民眾黨的立場是我們沒有特別反對或支持我們只是希望長照制度不會只是一個稅務減免而是應該其他怎麼樣把它救起來把它撈起來不要再發生這個事情"},{"start":2591.821,"end":2611.378,"text":"另外長照3.0針對剛剛講會請外勞是因為他真的沒辦法自己照顧長照3.0只是偶爾派人來家裡幫幫忙這個可能沒有用所以接下來應該是怎麼把3.0做到連重症患者也可以做得到如果做不到的話那外勞的費用是不是也可以再增加比如說他真的是"},{"start":2611.991,"end":2627.338,"text":"必要勤外勞的這種狀況我覺得還是回到將來不是只有討論這個18萬或30萬的問題而是真的勤外勞那個有沒有另外的方法來做其他的支柱 以上好 我們請財政部問一下"},{"start":2629.608,"end":2633.429,"text":"謝謝趙委 謝謝剛剛委員們的指教我想上一次在8月14號的財委會大概已經處理過這個提案那原則上就是從12萬調高到18萬我想這個部分當時也都有這樣的一個結論那剛剛如同長照如同剛剛黃委員所說其實我們家爸爸媽媽用外勞大概也超過20幾年"},{"start":2655.307,"end":2675.007,"text":"那我們知道因為家裡都雙薪家庭都沒有這個年輕人有辦法所以就用外勞那當然也是給我們很大的幫忙但是長照這件事情不是唯一說客的一個扣入的武漢委員所其實全面性的這是一個非常全面性的那所以我們是不是建議還是維持上一次的一個決議"},{"start":2676.108,"end":2678.432,"text":"至於剛剛林委員所提的譬如說兩老都失智了然後必須適用兩位外勞那這個兩位的話因為兩位老人大概應該用兩個就可以用18萬乘以2就是36萬嗎還是一個 應該是"},{"start":2693.312,"end":2712.551,"text":"然後另外就是說他如果是身心障礙的話還可以適用身心障礙的特別扣除因為他失智嘛那也可以適用21萬8千所以這裡面長照除了稅額扣除之外還有全面性其他的一些輔助那這個部分其實政府也努力在做衛福部也推出許多的相關的措施"},{"start":2713.832,"end":2738.955,"text":"那當然就是說有沒有到非常的就是說可以涵蓋面更廣我想政府一定是在財政資源能夠充裕的情況下盡全力去做因為人口老化這個問題確實是未來我們自己也都會遇到所以在這裡建議是不是既然上一次已經有過一個決議共識我們是不是還維持然後最重要是盡快然後讓明年在申報的時候應該明年就可以"},{"start":2739.595,"end":2767.328,"text":"申報的時候就可以試用那這樣的話就是114年開始試用那明年5月申報的時候就可以試用18萬這樣的一個額度所以是不是做這樣的建議現在這樣子這個如果18萬不動但是因為你這個是排富你基本上是排富的你們是20%以上才就把它排掉了能不能夠20%也把它納進來"},{"start":2770.781,"end":2789.016,"text":"就是說你這個讓他範圍就是18萬你不動就18萬就接受了但是呢我們就那個範圍你現在是現在其實那個適用的很少只有5%跟13%而已你不能加一個加到20%就這個沒什麼影響啊剛剛部長講的那個兩個人"},{"start":2794.421,"end":2795.582,"text":"那請中文研究"},{"start":2820.69,"end":2841.542,"text":"謝謝啦 感謝因為我最近在看8月14號也是在這個地方有主席來主持啦那出席委員大家都有簽名那我有注意到呢對 就是因為林委員那次的發言內容我翻了一下沒有看到林委員的發言所以說我可以理解其實召委排這個協商的目的也就是這樣子"},{"start":2842.422,"end":2860.307,"text":"讓那一天沒有發言的委員可以有機會再次表達意見畢竟我們在協商過程中的發言都是很重要對選民負責的一種監督跟爭取所以我這裡完全認同林委員因為今天有這個協商他可以把那一天他沒有來得及表達的"},{"start":2863.008,"end":2880.473,"text":"因為那一天你那這樣子那一天有很多種版本那一天有在場的委員也經過很深入的討論後才達成了一個共識像我們黃珊珊委員最後也是說好啦 那就同意18萬我看這個會議紀錄上也是寫得很清楚每個委員都有每個委員的堅持"},{"start":2880.973,"end":2896.267,"text":"因為委員除了提案書面上的文字之外大金額之外我們到了現場還是會再度表達那我完全尊重也肯定我們林委員為選民爭取福利我想這個為來監督政府收緊荷包我都同意"},{"start":2901.361,"end":2918.876,"text":"但是因為我們畢竟是一個我們的協商就是要整合剛剛張偉主席又提出了一個就是所謂的排富的門檻因為我們在上次的協商完全沒有討論那表示什麼表示大家對這個事情是沒有不同意見的"},{"start":2920.177,"end":2934.835,"text":"大家没有注意到这个问题我觉得主席如果是这样讲的话那我们上次的协商那变成每一次的协商都有一些没有注意到的东西我是觉得是这样为了维持我们其实如果真的有一些我们还可以再"},{"start":2936.021,"end":2952.856,"text":"进步的地方每一年其实所得税法我们每一年财委会都会排案来讨论所以我是觉得我们是与时俱进每一年都在进步因此如果说大家觉得今年发现说这个排付的门槛的部分可以讨论因为我们的协商在8月14号已经确定了"},{"start":2953.396,"end":2971.984,"text":"那如果覺得這個事情我們可以繼續未來在所得稅法修改的時候我們可以請財政部把這些有排富門檻的大家做一個全盤的檢視因為我們也不要掛一漏萬可能這個地方的排富跟其他地方排富有沒有一樣所以我非常也認同主席說的如果我們過去在討論這個議題的時候我們並沒有把"},{"start":2974.485,"end":3003.4,"text":"排富的門檻納進來討論未來修法的時候一定每年都會修所得稅每年都會修特扣額 標扣額 劣扣額什麼的我們都會拿來討論我也是覺得是不是可以這樣子主席我們請財政部把這些所得稅法當中有關於排富的門檻的各項規定做個全盤的整理我們這邊也做成一個大家的共識接下來我們還是會去處理所得稅法下次所得稅法修的時候我們就把排富的門檻拿進來好不好"},{"start":3006.329,"end":3010.733,"text":"財政部的牌幅已經整理好了啦你解釋一下嘛你們牌幅我們也需要時間消化吧"},{"start":3023.294,"end":3047.391,"text":"我跟委員報告我先講我們長照適用的條件其實我們不以我們是定額扣除簡單的講就是你符合資格就可以扣當然有三種狀況一種就是說你符合聘請外勞資格但你可以實際自己看一樣可以扣第二個就是你入住住宿是機構那真的就要入住要90天另外一個就身心失能第二級到第八級你有申請長照服務的"},{"start":3049.072,"end":3066.29,"text":"這三種都可以扣可是這三種並不限說你真的要申請外勞這是我首先先跟委員就是林委員解釋一下第二個就是說我們現在排富本來有三個現在只剩下兩個我們本來三個一個是右扣一個是長照一個是租金支出"},{"start":3066.79,"end":3093.778,"text":"那這三個當時都是從一個就是說你所得稅基本上你有能力撫養這些人其實基本上對國家稅收多貢獻一點其實基本上是OK再加上因為稅率高的人他減稅的金額比較大譬如40%的人他減稅金額就大很多所以當時大家有一個共同的認知就是說對於所得高的人其實自己他的錢就夠付這些錢不需要我們政府再額外給他減稅利益"},{"start":3095.038,"end":3110.292,"text":"然後後來又扣是因為少子化所以我們把它拿掉所以現在就留下長照還有租金這兩項特別扣除了是還有排付條款那它排付有三種狀況一種就是稅率只要20%以上就被排掉了"},{"start":3110.692,"end":3127.761,"text":"第二個就是你鼓勵分開計稅28%的也會被排掉第二個就是說你的基本所的你有申請有去報基本稅額的這種也會被排掉一共有三種被排掉目前我盤點就是照法條規定目前就是長照跟租金排三種狀況這樣"},{"start":3131.192,"end":3146.879,"text":"沒有 你沒有回答我的問題這個排富是20%以上還是含20%20%以上就被排掉了所以你現在是20%以上就被排掉了對那我們就希望說因為我原提出說20%其實現在Majority20%也不是很有錢20%是不是也可以納進來可以享18萬的這個因為"},{"start":3153.362,"end":3165.245,"text":"你差多少現在20%以上的人就是淨所得這是用淨所得簡單講就是說要扣掉沒收入扣除然後扣掉所有的以後淨所得126萬到252萬中間的人是20%的稅率126萬淨所得換算為這是112現在是多少對不起剛才我念到112年度"},{"start":3180.939,"end":3208.328,"text":"如果以114年度因為今年是114年度是133萬到266萬這個級距的人叫20%目前這個級距是被排到那這是指淨所得所以如果你在我們把它還原成總所得應該都200萬以上了還原為總所得就免稅額扣除再還原上去都是250應該是差不多有些重點是20%的就"},{"start":3211.055,"end":3235.575,"text":"不是用18萬這個扣除的啦這樣子啦 目前是這樣子年稅有扣除對 月收入十幾萬的人耶大家想一下 這個社會觀感我是覺得我很認同我們主席的用心啦但是我是覺得這個事情我們可以有更充裕的討論突然冒出來這個題目 大家都沒有"},{"start":3237.611,"end":3258.431,"text":"不是 你差多少 署长有没有如果把20%以上改成20%您是说税收影响数吗我是觉得今天我们不是从税损来看因为社会的公平正义不是从税损税损是财政部他在关心政府的税收但是人民是观感怎样我一个"},{"start":3259.491,"end":3282.005,"text":"整年所得不到100萬的人我跟年所得超過200萬以上的人我都可以有這樣的一個18萬的優惠我是覺得這個心態上我不管你政府稅損多還少我們出去要面對一般的壽星階級一般的小倆口的壽星階級雙星家庭他現在以我所在的地區"},{"start":3284.126,"end":3298.651,"text":"100萬以內的比比皆是那現在你告訴他說那個200萬的月所得都十幾萬薪水的人跟他一樣說這樣的話我也只能扣18萬他也可以扣18萬這個是一個公平性的相對剝奪感我是覺得我們要考慮"},{"start":3299.771,"end":3324.284,"text":"36萬我支持這個就是36萬我們剛剛提到18萬這個事情我們逐年都在調我們逐年都在調上次的協商已經講完18萬了今天主席又提到說18萬之外那我們是不是18萬有共識了我們來談談扣除排付條款的門檻可是我覺得排付門檻拉到了20%就會造成年所得"},{"start":3325.344,"end":3341.739,"text":"200萬以上的人你講一邊 另外一邊也要講我剛剛講就是說實質確實是36萬你為什麼讓我扣十幾萬是 我們目標嘛目標我們往這方面邁進你講目標是好聽啦實務我是扣36萬那我們林委員也發表完了因為我們上次協商大家就有這個共識了"},{"start":3343.622,"end":3370.081,"text":"好啦 這個就這樣子吧我們就維持原來的心臟結論吧然後我們希望財政部也認真去思考一下排富的門檻你講200萬當然看起來很多啦事實上雙薪家庭老實講200萬扣掉扣一扣在台北市來講200萬也是很辛苦啦這個這個老實講就是要雙薪啦這個東西我們現在 對不起"},{"start":3372.464,"end":3389.339,"text":"寫上結論來那個第17條照審查會的審查結果通過第一項第二款第三目之七修正為長期照顧特別扣除的自中華民國114年1月1日起"},{"start":3394.39,"end":3411.247,"text":"納稅醫務人配偶或受撫養親屬為符合中央衛生福利主管機關公告需長期照顧之身心失能者每年扣除18萬其餘同現行條文"},{"start":3412.128,"end":3430.625,"text":"第二 第五條之一 維持現行條文第三 各黨團同意經運會決定就進付二讀那麼我們還有七個案子這個我們就讓他進付二讀 可以不可以就跟我們這個案子一起 好不好"},{"start":3432.563,"end":3453.682,"text":"在委員會有七個案子沒有也不要表決就是就他們會抽出來抽出來併嘛好不好所有的委員的提案通通抽出來進副法圖然後但是我們協商的版本就是以這個為主那我們就不要再協商了好不好直接去二三賭了好不好直接去二三賭了好"},{"start":3456.906,"end":3477.659,"text":"那請各位就親自囉好不好就等於我們再協商一次了啦今天重要的結論是把其他的委員這段時間的提案也納進來一併然後就是我們就禁服二讀三讀是用我們協商的版本禁服二讀三讀這樣好不好其他版本就進來啦"},{"start":3486.331,"end":3495.316,"text":"所以我們就不再來協商了我們就直接到院會了好不好沒有 稅收不足啦"},{"start":3516.241,"end":3537.178,"text":"長照不是你們給的 長照基金我要下去囉 朝上你改成保險室就可以了啦你們又不要啊你們又不要 好啦 謝謝啦 謝謝啊我那個再拜託囉 署長 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吳司長"},{"start":1978.186,"end":1991.998,"text":"整合評估司苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購是趙雅萍 趙主任人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫 侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇 謝次長作戰及計畫參謀次長是連志威 連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔 李次長"},{"start":2003.766,"end":2026.876,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山 謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德 郭次長陸軍司令部 陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部 邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部 李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部 薛淵權 薛參謀長憲兵指揮部 文念忠 文參謀長"},{"start":2034.846,"end":2051.235,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部 梁永坤 梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 林振維 林執行長國防大學教育長 李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院 李士強 李院長"},{"start":2064.983,"end":2067.324,"text":"人事室陳榮宏陳主任我們現在補充介紹羅美玲羅委員那請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處如果沒有我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2088.51,"end":2099.534,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告軍人薪資待遇結構現行做法檢討以及未來調整規劃並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進今天應邀至外交及國安委員會實施專案報告"},{"start":2118.345,"end":2147.743,"text":"承蒙各位委員對於國軍志願與官兵薪資待遇的關切在此表達誠摯敬意謝誠提高官兵待遇福利一直都是本部努力推動的工作並考量敵情威脅變化防衛專案需求及勤務專業特性與繁重程度等因素持續整體檢討修正各項勤務佳績本次透過專案報告讓大院委員及"},{"start":2149.211,"end":2171.409,"text":"國人了解國軍志願役官兵整體薪資待遇結構及未來調整規劃進行各位委員指導與支持接續由本部資源規劃司司長藍靜婷女士就軍人薪資待遇結構現行做法檢討及未來調整規劃向各位委員提出報告"},{"start":2179.867,"end":2200.656,"text":"委員 各位委員主席 各位委員先進居然新制待遇結構現行做法檢討及未來調整規劃一 前言為維護國防安全保障人民生命財產國軍除需二十四小時戰備執勤外更需經常性實施演訓及支援救災等任務無論工作之危險"},{"start":2201.756,"end":2223.659,"text":"艱困程度及服勤时间都具备高强度高风险之特性为了稳固国防战力本部透过调整薪资待遇以强化招募诱因及增进留营意愿以下就军人薪资待遇结构历年调整情形114年执行成果与未来调整规划实施报告"},{"start":2224.44,"end":2253.561,"text":"二 军人薪资待遇结构志愿役军人薪资待遇整体结构包含了基本待遇及各项加给说明如下一 基本待遇包含本凤 专业加给及志愿役加给二 担任主管职务可支领主管职务加给或上将职务加给三 服务地区为外离岛及高山地区可支领地域加给四 分发制战斗部队可支领战斗部队加给"},{"start":2254.321,"end":2276.72,"text":"五 从事海上及空中勤务 飞弹修护 特种勤务 空降特战及空中投送军医军法 电讯侦测 战术及航行管制 三军一队 网络作战 资讯处理军事监狱 外事联络及教官等工作 可依所占职缺则依支领勤务加急"},{"start":2278.751,"end":2293.732,"text":"3.歷年調整情形為照顧官兵權益本部自104至113年間已完成10項加擠增修訂並呈報行政院核訂後調整重點災報如下1.地域加擠"},{"start":2295.013,"end":2321.286,"text":"鑑於官兵服務於外離島地區受交通不便影響及生活成本偏高本部於106及107年分別調整離島地區月支數額112年配合行政院地域佳績合理化調整方案調整澎湖地區地域佳績月支數額113年將東營舉光地區地域佳績支令級別由外島三級調整至外島二級"},{"start":2322.662,"end":2349.541,"text":"二 勤務加擠為照顧從事危險性或技術性工作之官兵本部依其勤務特性增修訂七項勤務加擠說明如下一 戰鬥部隊加擠配合募兵制推動增加志願役人員制戰鬥部隊服役誘因一百零四年奉行政院核定新增第一類型戰鬥部隊加擠五千元及第二類型戰鬥部隊加擠三千元"},{"start":2351.082,"end":2363.67,"text":"106年 依各部隊屬性調整可納入第一或第二類型戰鬥部隊單位數量迄今歷經八次增訂發給單位可支領戰鬥部隊人數已達全軍比例約57%"},{"start":2365.885,"end":2387.286,"text":"二、網路站佳績,為培養從事網路勤搜、防護、反制等工作之人才,106年奉行政院核定新增網路站佳績,凡取得專業證照資格且具備攻防演練成果之官兵,可依證照等級、戰果時機比例,支領網路站佳績五千元至五萬元。"},{"start":2388.607,"end":2408.499,"text":"三 戰航管家級 鑒於台海周邊基建往來頻密 監控管理繁雜 為流用具備空中戰術及海上航行管制等技術人才106年奉行政院核定新增戰航管家級凡實際擔任戰管及航管工作之官兵 可支領戰航管家級4100元至6200元"},{"start":2411.944,"end":2434.943,"text":"四 電偵家籍電訊發展是為國軍專責電偵情報單位為掌握敵犯台徵喉預警之重要單位其情資分析人才之經驗與專長無可取代106年奉行政院核定新增電偵家籍凡從事電訊偵測情資分析衛星徵造判讀等工作之官兵可支領電偵家籍4100元至6600元"},{"start":2438.171,"end":2460.014,"text":"五 三军仪队加级三军仪队负责国家重大庆典 勤务考量其部队训练要求标准及维安风险系数等特性一百零六年奉行政院核定新增三军仪队加级凡仪队队员通过年度评鉴者可支领三军仪队加级三千元或五千元"},{"start":2461.792,"end":2479.361,"text":"六 空降特戰加擠 高空跳傘專長屬高難度 高風險之訓練項目人員培訓不易 為有效留用專業人才廣除師資總能109年奉行政院核定高空跳傘月資數額最高調整至15000元一般跳傘月資數額調整至7200元"},{"start":2484.87,"end":2503.688,"text":"七 軍法加緊 因應國防法律事務需要 113年於軍法人員勤務加緊表 新增國防法務官為支給對象凡從事法治訴願 法紀調查等國防法律事務工作之軍官 可支領軍法加緊4700元或5500元"},{"start":2506.832,"end":2529.074,"text":"三 主管職務加擠考量士官督導長擔任單位主管助手協助管理內部勤務繁重108年將各層級士官督導長的主管職務加擠調整比照同單位副主管之主管加擠數額給予八成以健全士官制度穩定發展"},{"start":2531.016,"end":2552.33,"text":"4.專業家級省市整體士官制度各層級士官長對於部隊管理的熟練度及專業經驗並不亞於同單位軍官109年將士官長各階專業家級月資數額調整比照軍官中位之少校專業家級數額發放以實質增加士官長薪資待遇"},{"start":2554.857,"end":2578.711,"text":"四 114年執行成果 近年受少子化趨勢影響可增藝男及畢業學生人數逐年減少為鼓勵志願軍人長留久用 同時吸引社會青年投身軍旅本部自113年起 全面審視志願役整體薪資待遇結構提出五項加緊調整方案 軍獲行政院核定生效實施 說明如下"},{"start":2579.491,"end":2598.677,"text":"一 為充實志願役人力並鼓勵官兵前往戰鬥部隊服役114年本部研提志願役勤務加擠及戰鬥部隊加擠調整方案並獲行政院核定自114年4月1日起生效凡志願役現役軍人不論官科志願役加擠調整為13000元至15000元"},{"start":2601.758,"end":2611.76,"text":"另服役於戰鬥部隊之志願役官兵第一類型戰鬥部隊加給調整至一萬兩千元第二類型戰鬥部隊加給調整至七千元"},{"start":2612.779,"end":2633.047,"text":"二 為鼓勵高專人才長留久用本部另嚴提三項勤務加擠調整方案以分別獲行政院核定制114年6月1日及7月1日其生效說明如下一 網路站加擠網路站場經營屬高度機敏承受精英人才培育不易"},{"start":2633.707,"end":2653.1,"text":"为提高流营诱因并鼓励官兵踊跃考取证照及取得战果114年6月1日奉行政院核定调增专家级月资数额1万元并将专家级精英级可支令人数比例由15%提高为30%二战航管家级"},{"start":2653.88,"end":2671.817,"text":"今年中共不斷於台海周邊執行演訓活動而海空軍雷達戰各級空管中心與自通電軍為我國勤監偵應處第一道防線考量戰航管人員勤務大幅增加114年7月1日奉行政院核定月資數額調整為5100元至11200元三 電偵加擠為因應"},{"start":2679.083,"end":2684.005,"text":"敵情動態擴張電展示爭獲情報訊息數量較往年增加57%橫著其任務監控及偵搜環境特性114年7月1日奉行政院核定月支數額調整為4100元至13600元"},{"start":2698.648,"end":2711.874,"text":"檢視本部待遇調整規劃實施後志願役人數呈現成長趨勢經統計至114年10月志願役現員較去年成長2000餘元薪資待遇提升已有成效"},{"start":2713.089,"end":2733.889,"text":"五 未来规划调整规划一 为持续照顾官兵本部研拟增修订战斗部队加级战航管加级与反情报勤务加级等方案于114年8月至10月间分别呈报行政院审议中持续掌握核定进度说明如下一 战斗部队加级"},{"start":2735.151,"end":2749.98,"text":"無人機及火力部隊暫時將建立全時段戰場監控體系針對敵高價值目標實施攻擊本部評估其任務特性符合行政院核定制戰鬥部隊定義嚴尼支領第一或第二類型戰鬥部隊佳績"},{"start":2751.781,"end":2767.132,"text":"二陸海空軍飛行部隊機務人員防空戒護部隊及資訊通信連隊等單位本部評估其從事戰鬥支援任務符合行政院核定之戰鬥部隊定義嚴齡支領第二類型戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":2769.293,"end":2784.942,"text":"二 战航管家级自通电军所属通知站台协同海空军雷达站从事之通信战术管制等工作本部评估其任务特性符合行政院核地之战航管勤务定义严离支领战航管家级"},{"start":2785.962,"end":2810.751,"text":"三 反情報勤務加緊軍事安全總隊為國軍唯一反情報專業部隊系鞏固內部安全不可或缺的重要單位為提升流營誘因本部評估其勤務繁重艱困程度嚴厲新增反情報勤務加緊四 為鼓勵士官勇於向上派職本部課陣研議士官督導長分級制度並依其階級結構持續檢討各項加緊"},{"start":2814.008,"end":2832.848,"text":"二、本部将依敌情威胁、防卫作战需求及勤务专业特性与繁重程度持续检讨修订各项勤务佳籍、支领的对象、种类及发给金额以增加志愿艺人员留营意愿同时吸引民间优质人才投身军旅"},{"start":2834.161,"end":2857.373,"text":"六 結語感謝大院支持與指導軍人承擔國家安全的重要任務職業特性與其他行業不同其能透過合理薪資調整待遇在落實戰訓工作的同時也能照顧官兵及眷屬以確保戰力能有效發揮以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2863.78,"end":2878.634,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":2896.813,"end":2906.237,"text":"是 羅委員好部長早 部長今天我們要來談的是軍人的薪資待遇結構的問題其實從2000年以來 軍公教薪資補調了6次近年2022年2024年各調了4%然後114年再調3其實這5年來整個調幅大約來到11.4%"},{"start":2921.564,"end":2938.702,"text":"那今年四月份的時候呢還調升了紀念印加級跟戰鬥部隊加級那基層的這個作戰的官員這個官兵呢每個月最多呢可以來到這個一萬二是作戰單位呢歷年來呢這個條幅最最大的一次那"},{"start":2940.863,"end":2954.108,"text":"剛剛我看這個報告的時候其實我們為了高專人才的長留久用所以今年的6月、7月我們又個別調升了網路站佳績、帳範管佳績跟電證佳績"},{"start":2956.929,"end":2975.218,"text":"其實整個報告我們都提到家籍的這部分可是也讓我們發現就是說其實官兵實際上的待遇是靠各式的家籍堆疊起來了反而是本縫是偏低的之前我有看到一個媒體在記說像稍微志願第一年為例"},{"start":2976.198,"end":2981.161,"text":"本縫是22,750加上專業佳績20,750支援業佳績15,000然後就會達到58,500元所以我們可以看到呈現的就是說這個佳績多於本縫的現象當然我也看到也有人最近在討論就是說國軍的整個薪資結構的問題有提到一個問題就是說如果一調職的話"},{"start":3000.43,"end":3008.4,"text":"那是不是說他的薪水會掉了一大半那再來呢升官未必加薪等等的這些問題我想請教一下部長當初我們國防部的這個設計整個這個薪資結構的設計的考量是什麼"},{"start":3016.95,"end":3030.722,"text":"我想如果參照這個軍人待遇條例來看的話因為它的本縫這個部分是屬於軍公教人員的一體的一個基本待遇"},{"start":3032.683,"end":3047.528,"text":"各階級的縫及縫點都有一個跟軍公教人員的一個橫平性的規範所以如果就軍人本縫來講它是整個連動所有公教人員的一個"},{"start":3048.408,"end":3062.955,"text":"你是說條新的這個部分嘛對不對本縫的部分是軍公教就一體連動的嘛那就這個你剛問到說那所以在這個軍人待遇條例在這個"},{"start":3064.696,"end":3083.962,"text":"他就裡面就會提到就是說家籍那家籍我們特別提到那個現在大家可能討論比較多的就是勤務家籍這個部分勤務家籍這個部分的話我們主要是對於從事危險性或技術性高的然後或一起勤務的特性這當然包括他的"},{"start":3084.722,"end":3106.682,"text":"可能高專業性等等的我們就從這個勤務佳績來留住這一個有從事這些危險性或技術性工作的或者是職務比較繁重的或者是具有高專能力的這些人這樣子的一個結構來進行這個軍公教的一個待遇的一個整體規劃"},{"start":3108.453,"end":3128.885,"text":"所以看得出來當然我們從這個加息可以看到說我們是特定的單位特定的職種我們來做這個加碼所以部長認為說其實這種親自設計它是有誘因的是不是它這個設計當然就是說以你們這樣看的話國軍每一個單位它的勤務繁重程度不一樣它的專業性不一樣它的"},{"start":3129.785,"end":3145.903,"text":"這個危險性不一樣那如果每一個人心智都一樣的話那當然有可能大家都會不願意去往這個危險性高技術性高技術性高容易被拉走嘛對不對或高專業性的容易被拉走"},{"start":3146.403,"end":3169.011,"text":"那麼危險性高的那麼如果都拿一樣那為什麼要從事危險性或者這個事務比較繁重的部分的話那當然他也會考量他的相關的待遇所以這個可能我們在國軍在設計這個薪資待遇的時候要從各面向那參酌很多的意見然後我們來做一個整體的規劃考量這樣"},{"start":3169.628,"end":3185.775,"text":"所以我們是當然這個觀念可以理解只是說大家說本縫是比較低的我們幾乎都是把這個重點都擺在佳績的部分當然部長剛剛的解釋本席能夠接受就是說OK我們剛剛有提到就是說其實"},{"start":3187.936,"end":3210.587,"text":"就要帶到下面那一題了那我有看到今天的報告裡面有提到就是說好 像陸海軍飛行部隊機務人員防空戒護部隊及資訊通信聯隊等單位本部評估其從事之戰鬥支援之後所以符合行政院核定之戰鬥部隊定義所以呢研擬支領第二類型戰鬥部隊佳績其實我發現這個問題的時候是來自於這個審計部"},{"start":3215.609,"end":3228.42,"text":"其實省紀部今年它在查核的時候發現一開始我們在做設計的時候並沒有把這個陸海軍飛行部隊機務人員跟防空接護部隊拉進來是不是因為省紀部今年查核發現所以我們才認為說確實是"},{"start":3231.022,"end":3234.265,"text":"因為確實我們可能在整個設計當中可能會漏掉了一些可能其實就是符合第二類戰鬥部隊佳績的像之前的話我們只是只有給空軍坐在聯隊的地勤維修人員或是武掛人員來領這第二類的戰鬥部隊佳績可是像陸海軍航空部隊的部分其實它是屬於同類型可是卻沒有"},{"start":3256.721,"end":3278.991,"text":"而是審計部這邊發現查核發現我們才納入是不是這樣子一開始設計的時候並沒有把他們拉進來對不對行政院有一個戰鬥部隊的一個定義那戰鬥部隊的定義它包括的是直接跟敵軍從事作戰部隊或協同作戰部隊來提供戰鬥資源的那因為現在我們"},{"start":3281.513,"end":3295.071,"text":"漸漸都朝一個聯合作戰的一個形態來發展所以在聯合作戰形態發展的一個就是說這種概念之下我們確實是要越來越多的檢討"},{"start":3299.137,"end":3327.415,"text":"這個戰鬥部隊包括了第一類的戰鬥部隊跟第二類的戰鬥部隊的一個這個定義那這個部分要做一個全面性的檢討這個是確實是我們應該要來努力當初是疏忽的部分是不是因為本來 我本來還想說這次的話想要問一下說到底有沒有納入可是我看報告裡面說你們也要納入嘛所以一開始設計的時候就沒有把這個陸海陸海軍航空部隊的這個拉進來"},{"start":3328.616,"end":3352.259,"text":"所以有很多的家籍做出來之後還是有一些繼承的弟兄會認為為什麼我們沒有像我們有看到第一類第二類的戰鬥部隊目前大概有七萬五千人他是符合這個資格的可是只佔了職業運的一半其他的都是後勤跟幕僚"},{"start":3353.2,"end":3377.428,"text":"那難道後勤跟幕僚其實他們就沒有納入了嗎如果是說按照部長的這個說法可能他們的工作可能就不是屬於聯合作戰部隊的一部分可是後勤跟幕僚其實這個他們就說很多家籍其實他們是領不到的我們設計了很多的家籍其實是領不到的那後勤人員他們也覺得說他們也很辛苦啊像這個的話以後的設計我們會有怎麼樣的一個規劃跟調整嗎"},{"start":3380.129,"end":3402.036,"text":"我剛講聯合作戰的定義的話應該是會比較擴大因為在聯合作戰的概念之下後勤單位的話我們就現在在這個整個薪資待遇的整體結構我們會重新檢視這個戰鬥部隊的定義所以就後勤單位我們會來持續檢討修正這些支領的對象金額跟他的種類"},{"start":3403.527,"end":3427.874,"text":"所以這個部分的話未來會擴大來做納入的意思對不對目前是沒有所以當然基層可是還是有一點聲音他說其實說他們也都很辛苦也是24小時在待命可是為什麼有些家籍他們就是領不到所以這個部分的話我在想國防部還是要重新來做一個調整跟規劃因為還有一點因為剛剛大家都有在提到就是說這個"},{"start":3429.554,"end":3451.356,"text":"事實上叫戰鬥部隊的第一類型的話整個陸軍在裝甲旅以下或者是炮兵營等等這些都是屬於戰鬥部隊所以戰鬥部隊的定義避免就是說因為現在一直有人在講說升級反而降薪"},{"start":3452.677,"end":3475.864,"text":"那所以我們必須要整體的來考量戰鬥部隊的定義因為在當時在核定戰鬥部隊的定義的時候比如說雙甲旅就是屬於直接參與戰鬥的那到底在什麼樣的一個程度在合乎這樣的一個定義之下這個戰鬥部隊的一個佳績要發放到哪一個層級我想這是值得來做整體的規劃跟檢討"},{"start":3477.324,"end":3494.752,"text":"OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長那最後一題我想請教就是說從115年起呢機運加急像立法院通過了明年1月1號施行一律是加3萬部分關節部分植物這個植物類型那這對我們未來的這個軍事的部署跟裝備的這個有沒有有什麼影響嗎這會影響到我們未來的這個"},{"start":3498.953,"end":3518.809,"text":"這個預算的這個長期的壓力這個部分國防部的立場應該是我們還是會持續來加強這個軍人的待遇但是我們希望就是說能夠橫著他從事的任務艱困繁重的程度還有他的專業的特性所以其實國防部司法爹這種齊頭式的這個發放是不是我們希望來檢視整個包括了"},{"start":3524.634,"end":3550.102,"text":"這些各項勤務佳節還有戰鬥部的定義我們會來做一個整體的規劃來讓大家都願意到這個我們認為可以大家都需要到的一個地方我們需要到那大家也都認為是一個好的一個具有這個整體跟平衡的規劃這樣子的一個方向OK 好 以上謝謝"},{"start":3556.545,"end":3559.426,"text":"謝謝現在請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3579.582,"end":3593.91,"text":"是徐仁豪部長好首先在你們的報告裡面關於軍人薪資待遇結構裡面你們有提到幾點第一個基本待遇你們提到是本縫加專業家級加志願役的家級以及另外提到了戰鬥部隊家級"},{"start":3595.771,"end":3619.389,"text":"但是呢以上的這個相關的加級在原本軍人條例修正之前它是只放在勤務加級之下的那現在你們的報告框架呢等於說是按照新法但是呢明年度的預算卻沒有第一個我想要質疑的事情是哪有人執行法律呢只執行一半的所以呢我想今天是表達一個態度跟立場"},{"start":3620.129,"end":3637.769,"text":"就是去年我們通過的軍人待遇條例就應該要依法行政因為裡面不僅僅是有志願役的加級的調整還有未來該何時檢討等等的規定甚至很多基層的官兵都在詢問有沒有辦法訂定超時加級"},{"start":3638.81,"end":3653.815,"text":"行政院去把這個問題丟給憲法法庭但是在憲法法庭給予回覆之前他都應該要是一個三讀通過的法律被執行否則以後如果有人不想當兵他也寫一個理由送去憲法法庭"},{"start":3654.275,"end":3669.473,"text":"那他可以告訴你啊在憲法法庭回覆跟裁決之前那我都有權利不當兵那不就天下大亂了嗎所以當行政院帶頭違法亂政那當然這不是國防部長一個人可以決定的事情所以我想在這裡表明立場"},{"start":3670.234,"end":3693.509,"text":"未來相關法律的執行預算層面還是要整個立法院跟行政院再來協商但是請不要忘記賴清德總統講到就是說中共2027年可能要武統台灣等等如果我們對官兵的照顧卻如此苛刻甚至連依法行政都沒有那會多讓人寒心這是我在這裡表達立場那今天主要要詢問的問題是有關於這個海昆號"},{"start":3696.491,"end":3720.644,"text":"那關於進報他所獨家這個報導的這個新聞提到最近一次的海上測試包含是這個艦上的毛跡損壞出港的時候沒有毛那這個根本是政治性的海測拿全體的船員生命開玩笑也將造價256億元的首艘原型艦安全當兒媳我剛引用的是這個報導的內容"},{"start":3723.345,"end":3738.921,"text":"那台船做了一些解釋我們都有看到包含什麼呢傳播法不定義軍艦啊沒有安全儀力啊然後有旁邊有其他的兵力戒護等等那我有幾個問題要問第一當天海昆號測試的時候毛巾是否為損壞的狀態"},{"start":3743.394,"end":3765.96,"text":"委員長 海軍參謀長報告當天他的毛巾是在原廠在做一個對 他在調教嘛 對不對那他是不是因為壞了所以拿去調教那這個事情是什麼時候知道的呢在海上測試之前就知道了吧在規劃那天定義出去做海測之前就知道毛巾是損壞的狀況然後在原廠調教吧"},{"start":3767.214,"end":3793.585,"text":"對 它當初就是原廠它在做測試的時候它自己發覺有些元件要做必要的更換要做必要的更換嘛所以我覺得這個事情是這樣子既然它有要修正的地方壞了要調校那為什麼你今天海上測試的時候不是等它調校完畢之後準備好了再出海測試呢這到底是本來就台船或海軍我們都不在意還是呢覺得"},{"start":3795.006,"end":3800.384,"text":"用這樣的方式加速然後呢 不顧大家的安全這件事是可以被接受的"},{"start":3802.046,"end":3828.168,"text":"跟委員報告 那潛艦用的毛他一般是在這個潛航的時候 他是不會用這個毛那他一般用於在航進這個狹窄水域或是進出港的時候那你還是不是需要嘛跟委員講 他是一個多元備變的手段 因為對啊 那你還是不是需要嘛你這樣講的話 航道不需要 那就別裝啦那他有沒有必要性嘛 我看永昂將軍都在搖頭"},{"start":3830.089,"end":3855.501,"text":"你說裝這個毛沒有必要性毛巾沒有必要性這是你現在講的你現在告訴我們說海昆號上面不用裝毛巾也沒關係你的意思是這樣你要注意你的說法你的意思是告訴全台灣的民眾海昆號上面沒有毛巾也無所謂你是要做這樣的定義嗎我跟委員先報告他有一個先決條件就是說它的主要動力跟備用動力的系統是正常的"},{"start":3856.061,"end":3877.464,"text":"他的毛巾然後還有他當天我們左營高雄港是有做全程的所以他其實實際上對海昆號來說是必要的東西嘛但是你們在測試的時候你們當時他就是壞了所以在原廠調校沒有然後呢你們認為自己經過評估之後測試還是OK所以就去測試了不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3878.718,"end":3896.864,"text":"那是經過嚴密的這個很嚴密 好那既然日後要回專為什麼要急著出港那你今天講說旁邊有介乎就想吵吵了事這個對在船上的這些船員測試員當中他們會認為你們根本沒有把人家的生命當一回事這就是在碰運氣"},{"start":3898.505,"end":3923.644,"text":"根據委員報告 我們這個評估是專業團隊 台船 國外技協還有最終使用者 船上的官兵是一起跟我們做評估如果你認為船上的使用者大家都這麼的接受的話今天又和有哪些人會覺得就是受不了然後向進報去做這樣子的爆料而且是符合事實的呢我要講的事情是說你今天台船大言不慚的去引用船舶法說它不包含艦艇"},{"start":3924.605,"end":3942.039,"text":"但是對艦艇來說其實我們會希望它是更加的嚴格而不是更鬆散它本來就是必要的航安設備如果這樣的測試是可以被接受的那以後是不是所有的海測你們都可以在沒有毛機的情況下測試國防部可以接受甚至海昆號完成以後出海"},{"start":3944.241,"end":3955.186,"text":"沒有毛巾國防部也要接受嗎以後出海的時候不是測試喔完成以後出海我毛巾壞了我照樣開出去無所謂這是今天國防部要給我們的態度嗎跟委員報告艦艇有區分兩種狀況一種是它完成成軍服役的服勤艦"},{"start":3965.578,"end":3977.53,"text":"它是完整的服勤艦毛巾是一個重要的一樣是選項裝備但是有的替代方案另外海昆現在在建造階段你說的替代方案在當天海上測試的時候有嗎"},{"start":3978.479,"end":4004.28,"text":"有提供方案就是我剛有提到主電力 墮機跟相關應變的措施都所以你的意思還是一樣啊完整的潛艦已經完備之後就算是已經測試完交艦之後你認為海空號上面沒有毛巾國防部可以接受報表員這不是 他現在正在做測試是啊 在測試的時候對於安全來說當然也很重要我問你一個問題喔今天你要做測試是不是要講求數據正確"},{"start":4007.54,"end":4018,"text":"所以要看哪種的監測環境對 你要不要講求你今天測試的時候數據是你測試的時候各項的數據是符合到時候你交件以後你所得到的內容"},{"start":4019.264,"end":4043.399,"text":"不需要要看條件之下因為他這次出去做的是比較並不需要很精準你們的海上測試都不需要很精準這個話我們在國會殿堂上也可以講得出來那所有全民聽到你們這樣講之後會覺得你們的海上測試做的是嚴謹的嗎現在大家希望是一個嚴謹的測試我告訴你上一次是什麼沒有你記得嗎"},{"start":4045.057,"end":4063.821,"text":"什麼東西是跟人家借來裝的我們自己沒有潛望鏡這一次是什麼沒有毛巾沒有下一次是什麼沒有不知道每一次都丟三落四的少東少西的那這樣子我就問你剛剛講說測試不需要很精準的數據為什麼你會這樣講因為我簡單講你今天有沒有毛巾對於艦艇的整體重量有沒有影響"},{"start":4072.025,"end":4092.284,"text":"跟委員報告 剛才會跟委員報告他這次出去的主要測試目的就是在做他做高轉速我剛問你的問題沒有回答我嘛今天有沒有毛肌對於健體的整體重量有沒有影響對於健體的整體的重量有沒有毛肌有沒有影響"},{"start":4094.722,"end":4111.854,"text":"非常的低 配重有沒有影響配重船上會做自己的平衡跟配重配重沒有影響 平衡也沒有影響重心跟浮心的計算數據有沒有差異沒有 差異並不大你都說並不大 但是就是會有嘛對不對都會做統一考驗"},{"start":4111.994,"end":4116.357,"text":"你就是只是說因為你們覺得你們自己做現在的統一考量那就是你們說的算但是實際上你剛剛講的會有差異不管你今天差異多少它的測試數據跟你實際上面最後你得到的就是不一樣我們今天測試都是講求什麼我們希望你測試東西就是測試跟最終的結果是一樣的"},{"start":4133.388,"end":4150.037,"text":"結果你少了這個毛巾之後我先不說你的安全性的問題以及船員你問船員每一個人已經要測試說我沒有毛巾但是我們覺得很安全所以我們這樣出去可不可以那請問他們怎麼回答你不可以但是大家的心情是什麼你們有沒有拿人家的生命當一回事他心裡有數啊那我剛剛講了嘛你今天不管說你的艦艇的重量配重"},{"start":4156.661,"end":4161.042,"text":"重心、浮心等計算數據你說影響維護起為但它就是有影響今天簽一法而動全身海昆號我們希望它是做好而且能夠安全然後呢而且是一個很好的潛艦所以對所有的測試我們都希望能夠用高標準跟高規格結果你告訴我的是一個說我們今天只要說寄寫所謂的你們的專業團隊認為沒有問題就出去了旁邊反正有兵力戒護等等的"},{"start":4183.527,"end":4204.412,"text":"那這個對大家來說今天台船的說法我必須說國防部未必要買單啊你今天應該是要監督台船萬無一失而不是說今天所謂的標準就是呢台船說了算台船來回應那下一次如果用的設備壞掉涉及重要安全的像這樣子的一個情況那你還要持續往外測試嗎"},{"start":4207.085,"end":4223.172,"text":"跟委員報告 我是不是總統大概就三點第一點就是說我想秉持安全還是首要的考量所以我們每次的海測都有經過完整的主項評估會制定安全的規範跟風險管理來應處在符合安全條件下才會安排海上測試"},{"start":4224.492,"end":4241.033,"text":"就這一次的這個潛艦用錨是在一般潛航的時候並不使用它是在航經狹窄水域或進出港的時候因應緊急狀況作為減速使用是一個多重的備援選項之一那我們評估這個主動力"},{"start":4241.98,"end":4264.176,"text":"主被動力的系統正常那還有拖船警戒級伴護的兵力已經全程支援之下那個毛具他在這一次的這個護航測試不是一個必要的條件但我想潛艦在現在還在建造測試的階段那毛巾呢之後我們還是會在調教之後回裝之後我們會以護航"},{"start":4266.077,"end":4283.527,"text":"無航的方式來測試下毛跟起毛的操作功能所以等到回裝之後我們會配合什麼時候要回裝12月中要回裝所以這樣很清楚了我們會配合後續的海上測試會來執行SAT的驗收"},{"start":4287.91,"end":4304.17,"text":"因為你12月中你知道12月中毛基才要修好所以如果你今天你不先讓他出去的話你覺得你11月的海災你就要跳票了因為你出不去了所以你才說很安全那就讓他先出去否則的話照理來說他應該是要一起去測試的"},{"start":4305.572,"end":4318.396,"text":"報告你現在已經是12月1號了我的意思是說我們沒有在做任何政治性的海策你海策的時候是11月不是12月今天不是今天的海策的部長要完成全部的海策你們本來就已經跳票了事實上現在已經是做不到所以我們還是以秉持安全為首要的考量是說你11月要海策嘛對不對我們剛剛已經做了充分的說明了你上一次的時候是不是說你11月的時候要海策"},{"start":4333.94,"end":4346.106,"text":"所以說如果你12月的時候毛巾才要修好然後再裝上去然後才能做海測的話那又再跳票一次所以說為了要趕這個時間點來測試所以呢你就告訴大家說這個反正我們要去的地方沒有毛巾主動力系統安全所以還是讓他出去了那你想要避免大家來通緝說海空號再度跳票的結果在於你呢之後12月的時候又還是基本上還是得去做測試的嘛"},{"start":4362.853,"end":4373.204,"text":"那既然要測試的話為什麼就是你沒有一個道理說毛巾在11月的時候這一次的海測上面如果我告訴你如果他是好的你會不會讓他去測嘛如果他本來就沒有要維修他本來就是好的你會不會讓他也一起去測嘛也不會嗎你就把他拔掉嗎你也不會這麼做啊"},{"start":4384.54,"end":4407.497,"text":"我還是再次強調我們都經過安全的評估我想沒有什麼要趕著要在幾月要進行你們基本上你們都會說沒有要趕我想這邊要正式的還是要否認有這樣的任何的政治性考量請委員能夠我告訴你如果今天這個毛巾他根本沒有壞掉他也沒有再調教的情況他上不上海昆號他測不測試他測試你們剛剛的說法非常清楚了"},{"start":4413.962,"end":4418.604,"text":"那就是因為它壞了所以它這次海測的時候沒有要下一次的時候再測不是很簡單的道理嗎所以我沒有要講說這是政治性海測這是船員然後他們向進報的報導裡面所說的我在意的是什麼第一 毛巾損壞的情況下的安全問題對於很多在船上測試的人來說他們是不舒服的"},{"start":4440.652,"end":4457.051,"text":"第二測試數據的問題就算你今天告訴我影響不大他就是有影響第三國防部的態度應該是要用最嚴厲最嚴謹的方式來監督台船而不是幫台船洗地最後就是人事問題我今天時間不夠我只講"},{"start":4459.754,"end":4466.676,"text":"為什麼只要涉及海昆號的人士更迭的速度都特別快台船從鄭文郎董事長之後又換了兩次董事長黃曙光走了 唐華掉崗位那對海昆號的相關資訊要怎麼銜接這個人士拼裝車是很難讓外界安心的"},{"start":4478.539,"end":4491.954,"text":"希望我們部長能夠針對海昆號相關測試的相關的人員讓他穩定下來不要再這樣子換來換去會讓大家感到非常的不安心因為時間有限的關係 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4520.727,"end":4521.774,"text":"主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":4530.177,"end":4558.685,"text":"是 陳偉豪聽取了貴部今天有關行事結構以及一些加急的調整在過去本席跟部內同仁提出的建議有部分已經納入了那麼表達肯定那麼至於有一部分還有要討論的空間我們會在有不同的場域或者是不同的需求下委員也有不同的看法但是這個都可以做溝通"},{"start":4559.565,"end":4586.981,"text":"在这边各位看到了我喜欢用表格来略述我不是用情绪化用文字来讲我们的主体本凤 专业家籍 志愿医家籍主观家籍 勤务家籍 地域家籍在今天的报告里面都已经纳入了但是政策方向希望还是逐渐提持薪资待遇因为本凤会影响到退伍金的比例"},{"start":4587.762,"end":4614.499,"text":"那么物资调整物价上涨未来因应军人安家跟安心信心不足这些东西虽然在特种家籍勤务家籍地域家籍升高了但是它调差以后有起伏有涨跌我们希望能够在本凤部分慢慢慢慢还是要维持成长我们国军遵循国防自主与持续武器的采购这里面很关键的就是人才"},{"start":4615.626,"end":4639.91,"text":"培训那么1.25兆的国防特别军事战国防自主的比例是多少我们希望了解到因为现在我看到的有一点就是我们的教育经费没有增加比例相对是小的你所有的东西到了不只是国军的基础教育 职参教育还有战略教育"},{"start":4641.417,"end":4668.625,"text":"你碰到這些所有武器作戰構想新的構想AI導入我們學校的課程都還來不及跟上因此你要有特聘的老師而不是用現階的軍職部隊完了掉到學校坐個輪這個要值得精進因為要有專業的我舉例來講你現在各種先進武器陸海空軍都有了可是你的子參教育的教材還沒有更新"},{"start":4669.744,"end":4696.647,"text":"那这个是需要赶快加度那么这个要提高比例如果学校的教育教材还不能跟上你在美国买了这么多先进的武器装备它的准则教范保养手册维修手册纪令还没有反映到我们的职餐教育那这个将来人才就会流失因为第一批出国受训的人"},{"start":4697.898,"end":4727.271,"text":"这个回来后两年三年调职升迁再接替两轮以后你就跟不上了虽然美方持续在派人在台湾但是我觉得这个要就是说教官的甚至特聘教官外面所有的学校都有特聘教官那特种聘荣誉讲座你要给这个弹性像我知道的台大政大这个阳明交大中央他们通通有这个哪怕是我们的当初的就是说"},{"start":4728.834,"end":4749.798,"text":"我們所謂的志願役在學校的這種教育他們也都有特聘教官所以這個部分要強化至於其他的部分大家共同努力我現在要談到一個問題就談一些預算的問題因為我們不管是參考北約的模式2030到2033這個依照2500億在談到預算的時候這裡面包括了"},{"start":4758.912,"end":4768.386,"text":"包括美國前任的亞太的助理部長他提到了我們有軍售 我們有商售"},{"start":4770.43,"end":4797.368,"text":"FMS DCS甚至有商售融资FMF那还有美国总统特种拨权的可是他的后续料配件我们是要付钱的那在这个里面商售的比例占比多少因为这么大的一笔预算部长你在这个合约里面你是专家有关商售的任何一个专案我们就是有关律师会计师从当年建农案1%"},{"start":4799.489,"end":4811.869,"text":"后续掌握的状况也许可以降到千分之五我要了解在这个里面这么多的重要案子国内国外国际合作有关商售部分的这个"},{"start":4813.905,"end":4840.262,"text":"律师费用这一定要贯彻在里面如果你到后面出了问题协商第三地仲裁那跟我们跟台川公司本身的细节合约就履约督导是很困难的这个一天罚19万100天才1900万1000天三年了才罚19亿那这个比例上完全不合理所以大家要了解到就是说你除了有标准的"},{"start":4842.103,"end":4869.572,"text":"5年兵力整建10年建军计划它是前后调整这里面这是国防部出来的图从公务预算然后战力提升2022到2026到2026到2023这里面讲到了几个重点你AI导入了你还没有纳入学校的教材里面我们真正的长官真正使用AI的不是专业单位就是说对AI的概念要深入了解"},{"start":4871.997,"end":4880.884,"text":"這張圖是國防部出的 我做一個建議你裡面AI輔助C5ISR請問C5ISR是什麼東西那指管通知網電信捐贈可是你少了一個T你知道嗎在國外叫C5ISRT你就是要加一個targeting"},{"start":4895.615,"end":4923.414,"text":"对因为targeting的这个时效在军种的不同的武器装备间的coordination它时间非常短可能短于30秒所以建议C5I SRT这是美国都在用的包括洛马洛格他们也来立法院拜会我们也都讨论过这些东西他们也在强调提供这个共同图像的重要性但是很多的就是属于界面的问题我们看到这个图现在大家强调这个IBCS洛格都讲它可以整合"},{"start":4924.844,"end":4943.033,"text":"这是一个构想跨军种的武器如果用别的sensor甚至一个地区的单位它能够下令接战你的ROE就战务令接战规定你是分散式还是有授权在这个所有的准则教范里面必须要出来"},{"start":4944.013,"end":4956.165,"text":"所以整體的畫面 C5ISRT非常重要因為包括你的海瑪斯 包括魚叉你的色層相近"},{"start":4957.25,"end":4973.503,"text":"那谁来打谁来授权你能够由作战区来指挥吗也不行所以你在横指佐德里面你还是要有一个完整的授权然后逐步授权到了某个阶段分配下去但是跨军种武器的控制还有一个整合比方讲"},{"start":4974.344,"end":5001.744,"text":"空军的这个工山跟美国的爱山这两个的界面不一样那如果美国的厂商介入进来提供协助那我们中科院的这个很多的技术规范是不是要掏出去这涉及到我们专利权的所以我们到现在还在讲一个共同图像可是我们现在所有的简报的图是用简图我没有看过可以把三种演训的图像套叠起来"},{"start":5002.642,"end":5029.417,"text":"我们做一个展示美方来的时候我也跟他们谈过了他们说这还要大家共同努力因为你基本的区域性的战略态势图不是雷琴显示图所以我们现在太空部分的能力还不谈我们只希望能够我们自己国产的监视的但是通信卫星还不能在自己手上掌握所以频道还是有限"},{"start":5030.7,"end":5047.625,"text":"所以你看這個圖各種海圖航圖衛星套疊你的區域安全的圖都顯示了以後這個時候我們台灣之盾才能夠堅實但在這次過程中間還缺少一項雖然在這個強化防衛韌性不對稱計劃採購特別條例一共770個字對"},{"start":5056.488,"end":5067.139,"text":"國家來言我們部內的這個首長各級長官那真是日理萬機但對美國而言那可是日復斗經因為770個字"},{"start":5071.007,"end":5093.327,"text":"依照2500亿每一个字是16亿2300万所以这个里面的每一个细节大家一定要定义清楚也就是说在这个2026到2033这中间除了C5ISRT以外你对水下监控水下战力反潜这边没有涵盖这个当然可以补足进去"},{"start":5094.288,"end":5122.947,"text":"最后就是说我们要一个完整的整合画面不同的单位包括我们内政部救灾事实上这个画面我前次也向其他单位提过了我们都可以用3D的图形把灾区防护然后交给陆军救灾的部队他可以看到一个完整的画面所以整合画面配合现在不管是洛马诺格IBCS所讲的"},{"start":5124.045,"end":5144.245,"text":"这个C5ISRT以外还要含括到水下反潜反制无人艇这个也是另外一个威胁我们的盾不能只能对付水平面跟空中包括水下要完整的监控我这个建言请部长您做参考部长请回答"},{"start":5144.981,"end":5169.304,"text":"我想謝謝委員指教我想因為這個防空的台灣之盾的部分我想應該著重在這個質管的這個部分就是說我們要讓質管的整個的這個在不管在決策或者是在這一個產生一定的這個"},{"start":5170.885,"end":5196.877,"text":"從Sensor到Shooter的這個階段的時候那個指管的導入AI的一個輔助要能夠具有一個整合性也就是說在指管的這個整合性如果能夠越高那我們能夠進行的火力協調的分配就能夠越精確那接著下來我們做這個實施有效的一個攔截的成功率也會越高"},{"start":5197.757,"end":5225.1,"text":"所以我想在這個這個是純粹就防空的部分那麼委員所指教的指管通知網情監在家T的這個部分整個來講那當然是整個我們包括整個共同的作戰圖像這個其中也涵蓋了所有的情報後勤等等的這些圖像的一個全部的一個形成那這些形成我想還要再透過更大的一個努力"},{"start":5225.62,"end":5248.72,"text":"那這個當然不只是空中太空空中水地面水面跟水下我想這個部分是整個我們要防範整個防衛作戰的一個能力的一個提升的話這個CPSR如果再這樣踢的話那整個全面能力的提升這個當然還有待更進一步的努力"},{"start":5252.217,"end":5267.629,"text":"努力最主要就是還有一點我要強調這些所有先進的概念科技一定要趕快反映到我們的子彈教育跟戰略教育不然部隊拿到裝備學校的教材還沒有更新這個是我們要趕快加快努力的"},{"start":5268.337,"end":5289.769,"text":"是 這個我們跟國防大學之間要有一個更好的一個結合這是委員所一再提醒的我想國防大學在這部分我們要來盡速的來改革然後相關的這些教官他能夠跟我們的這些部隊"},{"start":5291.434,"end":5311.966,"text":"也好或者是跟我們的這些參謀跟我們的整個廣布本身的這些告示單位等等我想都要再做一個更緊密的連結才能夠整個知道我們現在防衛作戰的一個進程這樣子好 謝謝大家共同努力 謝謝謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":5327.766,"end":5329.587,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長是 黃委員"},{"start":5341.181,"end":5361.792,"text":"今天我們就講今天的報告中的一個新制的結構提到國進今年的加薪的方案和未來的規劃指出今年有一志願役勤務及戰鬥部隊的加級調整方案二是網路戰、戰航管和電偵三項勤務加級的一個調整"},{"start":5364.634,"end":5390.016,"text":"那未來的規劃會持續檢討修訂各項的請募的加急那部長今天我發覺我想你也發覺到國防部的加急方案和未來的規劃是什麼樣的特色關鍵就在國防部的所謂的加新全部透過加急的方式但是加急不是穩定的"},{"start":5391.377,"end":5408.585,"text":"穩定的本縫會受到各種條件的影響在新制的結構中具有不穩定的特殊性那很清楚的本席也了解國防部提出的加薪全部採取的是加級的方式"},{"start":5409.205,"end":5437.499,"text":"因為在這樣人才招募的時候可讓站面素性非常的好看但膨脹的多項加擠讓國人節的從今的薪資待意很好這根本是誤導視聽請問這位部長加擠到底加在加擠的薪資還是加在本縫的加薪最大的差別是什麼那個來"},{"start":5438.928,"end":5461.939,"text":"那個主席處你來回答這個問題是委員好其實依軍公教人員他待遇的基本的結構他就是包含了本縫跟專業家級所以本縫部分的調整他基本上軍公教他是一個依照階級跟職等一個橫平性的規定他不是單單只針對軍人的部分那"},{"start":5463.427,"end":5485.047,"text":"以軍職人員來講基本待遇就是比公教人員再多了一個志願役加級所以軍職人員的基本待遇基本上是本縫加上專業加級然後加上他的志願役加級這個才是他的一個基本待遇然後另外在針對軍職人員部分針對各個勤務的不同 設有不同的一個勤務加級"},{"start":5486.028,"end":5496.115,"text":"再由國防部依據這個勤務的專業性 艱困程度或者是它的任務的一個繁雜性來訂定這個加級的標準承包行政院核定實施所以你們的唱片上寫得非常的好看"},{"start":5501.738,"end":5521.375,"text":"我們今天講的也是核心的基數 核心的基數退伍之後的保障 本縫是計算退伍金和退休縫的核心的基數包含金人的保險的死亡 殘廢給付等 也是以本縫相關加緊"},{"start":5522.836,"end":5544.62,"text":"那在這個時候根本不被計算國防部在這個豐富的家計在人招募時一旦遇到了會思考人生未來的規劃的時候直接就會被當作是詐騙 乍看薪水不錯但是退伍後落差極大 保障不足"},{"start":5545.22,"end":5573.34,"text":"所以這就是你們現在要檢討的部分所有的新的結構你根本就是毀謠視聽嘛對軍人退伍以後或者是要加入國軍的行列裡面來講的話在加入的過程好像你們寫的賬目非常的很好但是退伍之後沒有什麼保障所以你再說明一下剛剛我回答的問題好不好"},{"start":5575.15,"end":5597.597,"text":"包委員其實退伍以後就是公務人員公教人員退休公教人員退休跟軍人軍職人員退伍基本上都是用本縫來計算退休給予那在公教人員的部分目前他是計算前15年本縫的平均數來當成一個基數軍職人員是計算前"},{"start":5598.177,"end":5618.146,"text":"五年來當成一個平均的一個基數所以其實政府在整體的政策照顧上面對軍職人員的退伍的一個給予的計算其實已經比公教人員相對的寬鬆那我剛剛也跟委員報告因為軍公教的一個縫點縫級他是一個橫平性的一個規定所以如果"},{"start":5619.186,"end":5645.877,"text":"以目前的制度來講他沒有單單沒有辦法單單只去討論軍職的一個縫點跟縫級就是本縫的部分他需要軍公教一體橫評考量那也誠如委員所說很多保險的制度都是用本縫當成基數來給予但是他相對於就是官兵或者是其他公教人員他們自負的部分也是用本縫來計算因為時間因素你把這個數據明細的要給我一份"},{"start":5646.777,"end":5668.03,"text":"因為現在很多的國軍官兵裡面來講非常的不了解你們現在所橫算的基數裡面的核心的基數非常的不了解因為前面看得非常帳面不錯但是他退伍之後他的保障嚴重的不足"},{"start":5668.655,"end":5694.577,"text":"所以我本心認為加級的補充非常的重要但是根本的解決問題是還是在回歸到加薪回歸 加薪回歸到本縫中最低的限度的改革也應該要把常態性加級納入各項計算的基礎中讓國薪退伍後能有更符合它的保障"},{"start":5695.397,"end":5721.045,"text":"這是對這退休的時候他才會把本縫加進加進去以公式的計算來法我們主張加薪就是加本縫才能符合合理到時候你把這些明細要給我一份好不好是我們再整理好那另外一些另外提到這個國新今年的加薪的方案"},{"start":5723.973,"end":5728.677,"text":"本期之前有執行過希望花東地區的現役的"},{"start":5731.127,"end":5757.681,"text":"服役的官兵爭取的地域的一個家籍那上次我有特別提到本席認為家籍還是要回歸到他的目的的本質來討論國軍地域家籍的目的是什麼其實提供家籍的目的不外乎第一個人員的留任第二補貼生活費第三對於服務已艱困的地區的補償從"},{"start":5760.76,"end":5774.433,"text":"上述的目的來看花東地區的住居應該符合地域加級的資格我想部長有沒有思考這個問題我上次有提出但是你們的回文是說"},{"start":5776.135,"end":5798.568,"text":"在研議 回覆給我的是在研議那這個部分我們要為了國新的人員的留住那地性的花蓮也符合 為什麼因為本席是花東的地址在交通上我們每次會碰到什麼地震 天災我們的交通就是不方便"},{"start":5800.669,"end":5819.345,"text":"地區性的地域的花東的這個國新官兵在交通上就會阻礙到那整個來講的話是不是它也符合禮儀島包含偏鄉偏遠的地域的一個花東是不是符合條新部長你來回答這個問題108年我們有承包行政院會動了幾年"},{"start":5826.211,"end":5854.948,"text":"报告委员其实花农地区的一个东台地区的一个地域佳籍我们在108年的时候就有向行政院来争取那时候行政院是因为在79年的时候就已经冻结了这个东台地区的一个地域佳籍的金额跟对象所以没有把我们放进去但是我们虽然没有列入这个东台地区的一个现在是施工背景不一样你们现在的你们现在的边线比都已不足以八成"},{"start":5855.848,"end":5884.095,"text":"我們要留住在偏鄉或者在花東地域性的這樣的一個現役的部隊的軍人來講的話也應該要給他們一個保障這樣才可以留住你要有誘因嘛現在你們一直招兵不足的時候你們要如何在時空背景裡面去更改改變你們的做法才可以留住國軍官兵啊是不是你們要跟上層裡面再來報告嘛"},{"start":5885.956,"end":5903.934,"text":"這是基層的反應啊報委員我是後製市市長向委員報告一下當然這個有這個獎金的部分是有對大家來說是有助益的可是我們要考慮到一件事情就是花東地區到其他地區去服務的人他一樣面臨這個交通的問題"},{"start":5904.935,"end":5928.492,"text":"就是其他地區到化動地區面臨的問題化動地區出去一樣會面臨到這些問題這個部分上次有跟委員報告過我們要全面來檢討可是我們現在就是如同剛剛資源司司長報告的現在考量本島一致的橫平性已經不可以再編列這些相關的交通費用所以針對上次委員說我們要把地域加擠要再放進去這個部分我們現在還在研究中因為我們講一個交通就好了"},{"start":5933.393,"end":5952.187,"text":"我們在不管是航班就比金門的金門少很多在鐵路交通受到地震或颱風的影響的時候也就是一年中有三分之二的時間都處在中斷和半中斷的狀態所以這個就是我要提出來"},{"start":5953.528,"end":5969.609,"text":"讓大家知道國防部應該在時空背景裡面在整個的狀況邊線比不足的時候是不是我們要讓我們的國軍官兵要留住你也要誘因能夠讓他的心知本分加緊"},{"start":5970.41,"end":5984.686,"text":"都要非常的清楚這樣才是符合國軍要招募我們國軍國軍官兵的子弟兵來加入我們的國軍今天來講我們現在未來你們提出的一兆.25億的"},{"start":5987.089,"end":6002.605,"text":"這樣的一個狀況那好 我們新進的武器進來你們如何在邊線比部署的80以下能夠招兵買馬 能夠加入我們的國軍那這個就是你們要思考的問題部長 你回答一下這個問題好不好"},{"start":6004.039,"end":6030.203,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想這個還是要做一個整體性的考量我們如果單純對花東地區做一個地域加緊那全國特別是在我們本島地區的服役有沒有形成一些另外衍生的一些效應我想我們要做一個整體的"},{"start":6030.523,"end":6057.445,"text":"你们整体的思考第一个我们重金买武器为什么不把这一些用在我们国金官兵得到他们更高的保障让他们都能够加入我们国金的行列来不管是加起不管是本凤都能够要重视而不是在重视于我们要买武器的这样的一个经费浪费我们的国家的公帑以上好 谢委员"},{"start":6062.399,"end":6070.706,"text":"謝謝黃委員 部長請回馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請顧部長"},{"start":6091.688,"end":6117.219,"text":"部長早部長我們今天訂了這個議題就軍人薪資待遇結構現行的做法跟未來調整的規劃因為我們已經三讀通過就是軍人在整個加薪的部分希望可以納入我們的預算裡面可是我們在明年居然都沒有編其實這個已經沒有依法行政我們現在看到今天的報告裡面因為我們是希望透過整個檢討"},{"start":6119.58,"end":6141.116,"text":"可以讓軍人在待遇上面如何提升或者讓他們覺得這是符合對他們的重視我想這是我們在修法一個很重要的一個因素因為我們看到今天整篇報告很遺憾的就是說他大概都在講歷史然後還有目前性質的情形還有已經呈報行政院代審的項目因為我們根本不是要這樣子的一個報告"},{"start":6145.999,"end":6150.04,"text":"因為就我們在整個過程當中我想要請教一下因為報告裡面有提到國軍的加薪調整從過去曾經從三千到五萬都有想要請教不同的數字它依據是什麼來的什麼專業應該有什麼樣額度的依據是什麼"},{"start":6166.246,"end":6174.351,"text":"然後你參考相關的政府單位或者民間相關的專長還是證照的含金量都是以什麼樣來做標準然後每個專業如何能夠獲得該專業的加級你是怎麼區別或獲得晉升的這個等級"},{"start":6182.777,"end":6198.939,"text":"或者是任職就有還是要考專業的考試及格專業簽證合格獲得民間證照還是有戰功還是要有資歷我們都看不出來那你資歷越久加級越高還是專業越高證照數越多你加級會越多"},{"start":6200.29,"end":6217.037,"text":"或者是你作戰需求指的是什麼是指新編程的單位作戰的型態還是編線比因為我們看到目前的編線比即使我們增加了這樣的一個戰鬥加級還是沒有辦法留住人他的編線比還是偏低很多尤其低於我們的平均值這是"},{"start":6218.177,"end":6230.106,"text":"目前我們覺得可能在比較隱憂的部分可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有提到那國軍的戰鬥部隊指的是什麼是以兵科區分還是依層級排聯營旅軍團等級來綠定我們之前已經有提到過這個是非常不合理的現象我們看到這個表格"},{"start":6239.133,"end":6257.55,"text":"引擠連擠分成第一類跟第二類我們看到引擠其實他都已經是基優拔升為引擠士官督導長的薪資其實他都比連擠士官督導長還要低所以像這樣子你這樣的加薪方案讓大家的剝削感更重"},{"start":6258.533,"end":6261.895,"text":"如果說我們現在持續這樣一直沒有辦法深切的檢討我們這只是頭痛於頭腳痛於腳的一個做法那也更會打擊國軍的士氣我們也接到很多陳情啊他們覺得他們的工作也很辛苦他們有的甚至一個人要做好多人的相關的業務因為你的邊線比就是不足你的人力就是不足而且你現在不斷不斷的採購新式的武器你也需要優秀的人才"},{"start":6285.791,"end":6304.782,"text":"部長來自民間上法律專業的事務所如果你要聘請優秀的人員我相信薪資一定會是你們很重要的考量之一所以就這個部分我們未來有機會我們還是希望因為今天的報告完全沒有辦法討論所以我們還是希望可以重新再就這個議題我們再來做一個探討那"},{"start":6308.124,"end":6327.936,"text":"所以跟委員報告所以依照您這個表上面就會有提到就說已經四貫督導長他適應的薪資要比連級的第一類跟第二類都要來的低那所以如果說我們一體的全部加自願役的這個薪資的話會讓這個級距差異更明顯"},{"start":6328.496,"end":6332.461,"text":"不會啊那因為大家都加你現在是因為那結果你的銀四貫渡照長的薪水要遠比連籍的還要低這件事情還是會再發生所以我們的問題我們的問題就已經有在我們的第七有提到了就是說"},{"start":6344.617,"end":6348.82,"text":"事關督導長的分級制度這個需要檢討所以我們依照他的階級結構來持續檢討這個有關相關督導長的這個薪資那這樣子的話才能夠具有向上這個走的時候他的薪資不會因此減少部長你的說法是錯的到時候請他們再給你詳細的一個說明報告因為中校營長也比少校連長還要低就是因為你的加級"},{"start":6370.796,"end":6379.584,"text":"沒有 你把引擠的包括相關幕僚人員這些其實你是沒有加擠的這個部分請他們再跟您詳細的做報告所以這個部分又涉及到戰鬥部隊的加擠的定義要到什麼樣的一個層級部長 我這個表格的內容絕對不是這樣這個請相關的那個"},{"start":6389.734,"end":6394.398,"text":"人員在跟您做詳細的報告因為我們今天就是發現有這樣的問題而且他就是因為我們修正以後才發生這樣的問題過去是沒有的旁邊說明一下是不是不是過去不是不是部長就這個部分他現在變成這樣的結構是因為加擠以後才發生的嗎以前會嗎"},{"start":6414.762,"end":6442.001,"text":"報委員以前會嗎 簡單回答就好如果沒有你們加急的這個新的做法以後其實它之前有這樣的狀況嗎所以我們現在要來檢討啊不是 你請先說明報委員 當初我們會討量戰鬥部隊加急你告訴我們 還沒有實施之前你現在的做法它有沒有發生這樣的問題 有或沒有有或沒有"},{"start":6445.427,"end":6448.168,"text":"有或沒有 你很清楚有或沒有回答這個就好以戰鬥部隊來講在我們這次加薪以後的確是有這樣子的狀況產生部長我要說的就是這個部分我們現在也在思考因為就是時空環境的改變謝謝"},{"start":6465.393,"end":6467.134,"text":"我剛剛要問的已經問完了部長因為我們的做法其實你有把它分類所以會造成這樣的狀況所以在很多我剛剛提到的有很多他們也覺得他們的業務量或者現在的整個"},{"start":6481.081,"end":6486.504,"text":"的調整我們應該要讓他們有一致性因為我們要的是讓他一致的增加我們所有的國軍當我們國防預算增加暴增這麼多的情況之下從3000億6000億到明年的一兆以上甚至還有很多的特別預算這都需要人力不管來操作武器裝備也好或者相關的業務量也好都需要人力當你在這些不斷的增加的情況之下你卻不願意"},{"start":6510.775,"end":6517.021,"text":"給更高的這樣的一個薪資我覺得這是不合理的而且會打擊他們士氣這是我們要強調的那因為時間的關係因為有機會我們會重新再安排做這樣的報告另外我想要請教的就是我們最近看到海昆號"},{"start":6529.093,"end":6536.359,"text":"他的新聞非常的多那剛剛其實徐委員也有特別提到我們現在在做第五次的這個扶航的測試我想要請教剛剛有提到因為船錨是船舶在緊急狀況底下的保密設備當機械故障停電操作失效的時候錨是最後能阻止船漂流的方式"},{"start":6555.615,"end":6558.136,"text":"船如果沒有錨 船在裝備故障的時候沒有辦法操作的時候 它就會陷入危險因此船錨是船舶重要的航岸裝備沒有裝海錨的船是不能出港的潛艦的錨跟水面艦的錨的功能是不一樣的基本上錨可以理解是船的最後煞車裝置"},{"start":6581.601,"end":6595.531,"text":"全世界的船舶法規 全世界的它含民船跟軍艦都將毛列入重要的航岸裝備沒有裝毛的船是不能出港的我想要請教 因為這個就"},{"start":6597.971,"end":6613.542,"text":"潛艦不管你們現在對外說它到底重不重要你們已經設計進去了那它發生故障它現在在調校當中為什麼不等它裝好以後我們才做這樣的一個測試你有差這樣的時間嗎"},{"start":6617.563,"end":6623.566,"text":"因為我們口口聲聲都說要注重安全你說這個不重要今天我們今天如果在一個遊艇上面每一個都是游泳高手他要出海去釣魚我們那個艇需不需要有救生裝備你只要出海就有危險我們剛剛講的就是緊急狀況為什麼他毛的重要性在這裡那你們可以對外說這個毛不重要潛艦沒有毛也沒有關係"},{"start":6647.981,"end":6650.307,"text":"這是對的嗎跟委員報告這個"},{"start":6654.042,"end":6658.244,"text":"軍艦它就是一個軍規那軍規它的備用系統會比商規的這個全世界的船舶法規含民船跟軍艦都將毛列入重要的航岸裝備沒有裝毛的船是不能出港的剛剛部長也提到如果我們這個調教完成以後你到時候下毛跟起毛的測試都還會另外做所以可見它就是必要的"},{"start":6681.817,"end":6692.145,"text":"當你還沒有調教完成你還沒有故障恢復之前為什麼要急著現在去做我們現在要講的是這樣因為你12月就回來了你們剛剛說12月就回來可以裝上那既然是這樣你就等他裝上以後你們再去做測試啊你們不是說安全最重要嗎今天如果一個很會游泳的游泳高手"},{"start":6703.374,"end":6721.605,"text":"他到海裡面他有時候腳抽筋還不是會發生意外很多潛水高手他在潛水的時候他可能在那裡潛過至少百千次以上還不是會發生意外今天我們還在建造階段你們都知道是建造階段所有的測試都還沒有經過非常完整的測試情況底下你說毛沒有關係 是沒有關係嗎"},{"start":6732.335,"end":6742.699,"text":"跟委員報告他還是其實就一個毛他就是一個備援的替代方案中間他是一個重要的航岸裝備今天你即使旁邊有什麼無人艇或者其他你說他的技學什麼都判定說這個沒有問題沒有問題為什麼我們的扶航測試會經過那麼多次他就是有問題那你當你發生問題的時候你的毛就是有他的功能在所以我們現在只是要提醒"},{"start":6761.545,"end":6765.188,"text":"我們一直口口聲聲說安全非常重要今天為什麼有人會把它爆料出來就是他們覺得不安全啊所以這個部分國防部應該要比台船更審慎除非是我們下令要求他必須在這個時間點所以這個部分我們先提出來做探討也希望未來不要再發生這樣的事情每一個步驟都是必要的今天"},{"start":6785.382,"end":6793.771,"text":"會游泳的人不需要泳圈因為他在游泳的時候不會用泳圈可是泳圈就是必須存在在那裡他發生狀況的時候他會用上所以我們希望我們用審慎的態度不要告訴我們說我們注重安全可是當有什麼問題發生的時候又說那個不重要那不重要你幹嘛設計啊"},{"start":6805.282,"end":6807.865,"text":"所以你幹嘛回來裝好以後你還要做測試這是我們要提醒的另外我在這裡本市也要請海軍提供相關的證明資料因為之前有要求提供我們主機這樣子的一個一些公文的函附可是我們看裡面其實還是有很多問題點而且避重就輕"},{"start":6828.359,"end":6835.003,"text":"因為潛艦的他所用的柴油主機在呼吸管航行的使用情境下面他的排煙口會被水包覆我想這個可能我們海軍也非常清楚這個部分嘛對不對所以我們在排煙他要克服這個壓力所產生的額外的被壓這個部分我們希望包括國防部還有包括我們海軍提供相關的資料最大可容許排煙被壓值"},{"start":6858.9,"end":6861.602,"text":"來判斷排煙是否能夠克服海水的被壓這是第一個第二個在高被壓的情況之下才有引擎能夠維持而定功率轉速不衰退的測試證明文件第三個排煙壓力跟轉速測試是否符合規範"},{"start":6877.938,"end":6880.781,"text":"它符合哪一個規範而且它測試的標準值是什麼我們請提供這三項的一個資料因為我們這一次主機你們在回覆的時候是說由法國驗傳協會這是屬於民間的第三方的檢驗認證機構對不對"},{"start":6895.895,"end":6899.24,"text":"那我們引用BV就是我們法國驗傳協會進行傳用柴油機的這個見證其實算是合理然後在也符合國際的慣例可是法國驗傳協會他只能確認傳用通用的要求"},{"start":6914.298,"end":6917.219,"text":"他並沒有潛艦專用的軍規驗證能力所以如果採購規範沒有明確的列入潛艦的排煙備壓還有通氣管阻力主水閥的順壓還有靜音以及抗震等抗震等需求只憑FTA跟FAT跟BV的認證我想這是不足的那這個部分"},{"start":6938.869,"end":6958.614,"text":"我們為什麼會特別要求說要提供相關的資料海軍在準備提供兩個禮拜之內提供好不好這一個因為我們希望可以證明這個主機是符合潛艦專用的操作條件的另外還有這一台小引擎它曾經用在哪個國家的潛艦"},{"start":6961.388,"end":6963.671,"text":"是否也可以提供因為如果有我們請提供不管你要用機密的方式或其他方式如果沒有那他過往的經歷沒有的話我們為什麼會選擇這樣的引擎"},{"start":6977.465,"end":7001.622,"text":"請提供一併提供相關的資料好不好兩個禮拜之內謝謝部長我們也希望是由您看過的因為有一些的認證我想我們當時在預算的編列的時候還特別請了非常多的法律的編了很多的法律律師的一個費用就這些部分不管是我們很多的合約或者像這樣的認證標準我們希望都經過專業的認證然後可以提供我們提供給本委員會"},{"start":7007.886,"end":7022.019,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想過去海軍在認可之下我們都已經有跟委員做過報告那要在保密的情況之下也有請委員看看是不是要到高雄那邊去所以我想這個都應該有安排"},{"start":7022.119,"end":7028.781,"text":"我想我們還是用正式的文字會比較好因為有時候我們看我們看不出來啊你像船看起來就是船我沒有辦法用看的去判斷那這個部分因為我相信其實不管是部長也好海軍也好相關的人員也好只要你們敢認證我們就敢相信"},{"start":7043.684,"end":7058.189,"text":"可是你們必須要很明確的讓我們知道這個就是一個完整的認證而不是你們用了很多的文字敘述然後我們還是看不出來那到底是什麼剛剛要求提供的再請確實提供謝謝不好意思耽誤時間謝謝馬委員請沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":7082.273,"end":7085.017,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝好 有請顧部長好 部長好"},{"start":7095.12,"end":7110.51,"text":"那這個呢我先追蹤一下因為這剛好也是大概在兩個禮拜前那時候我們有問就是說關於這一個加擠的這個接下來的一個調整跟順序因為我們現在有這一個志願役的有戰鬥部隊的 戰航館的電偵的 網路戰的等等之類的"},{"start":7115.214,"end":7131.612,"text":"今天在這一個我們的回應裡面就已經有提到目前請政院爭取的加擠方案所以看起來是逐步在進行所以這個部分我比較沒有什麼疑問我想要問的事情就是說因為今天畢竟是以這個作為主題"},{"start":7132.313,"end":7148.216,"text":"那因為現在加擠的部分我在看這一個網路戰的部分因為網路戰的加擠我們在這個2017年的時候那時候其實就有這個相關的設計那時候其實是國軍就開始這一個我覺得這是值得嘉許的一件事情"},{"start":7149.277,"end":7163.242,"text":"因為後來院版就是行政院針對資安相關的就跟國防部無關他們也有做這個加急但加急的方式比較不一樣所以那時候我有去詢問就是說這個不一樣到底在哪裡然後為什麼會這樣設計他當時是這樣跟我講就是說因為"},{"start":7168.064,"end":7183.179,"text":"我們過往這一個所謂的網路戰加級的部分它其實有一點點像獎金的性質因為它內部有一個這一個長官的審核然後看一下這一個表現有點類似績效的意思當然內部會產生一些競爭"},{"start":7184.5,"end":7196.924,"text":"所以後來行政院他們在做設計的時候他們的設計的方式就是它還是會有一個這個加級這個加級是比較固定的然後後面再加一些能夠變動的這個獎金它這樣會讓這個中間內部的那一種績效競爭的關係稍微減緩那時候速發部也有說他們在這個設計的時候也有做一個變動"},{"start":7206.526,"end":7233.274,"text":"這個變動的方式就是他不用一個月一個月看他是一年一年看這有點像是警察跟調查局的差別調查局也是他喜歡從一年去看那個績效這個時候內部那個競爭的這個壓力可能會稍微少一點所以我想問一下就是說就是我們現在加擠這個是確定的這個比較沒問題就是說加擠的方式有沒有可能我們跟院版目前他們自己在做跟資安相關的加擠的時候有沒有對齊的這個空間"},{"start":7240.927,"end":7242.33,"text":"喂好我是曾同軍參謀長的說明"},{"start":7244.488,"end":7272.321,"text":"那這個部分第一個就是證照的部分對 一開始會有證照的價值那這個部分就是有參考那是基本的是沒錯就參考行政院所發的這個基準那第二個就是針對他平常的一些工作時機那我們去有一個我問的就是這一個部分那這個部分都會有一個平和和審核的機制實際看他任務執行的成效然後依照這個等級然後去做審核發放"},{"start":7273.341,"end":7296.588,"text":"對 因為我就是在這個在問的過程當中就發現就是你剛剛講的這個第二個的這一個部分有時候會有點過度競爭那過度競爭的時候因為他也是長官在做審核那審核的時候呢長官之間的關係可能有些人會他不一定是長官是因為跟他的關係但旁邊的人他沒有得到他可能會不滿他認為說我明明我的績效很好這個有時候會有一些內部的一些因素但是我們也不能說績效不重要"},{"start":7297.148,"end":7318.19,"text":"所以簡單來講就是說我們要把那個變動的那一個幅度不一定要拉到最大而是說像剛剛院本的那種方式就是它有一個基礎然後再加上那一個績效的部分它的變動就會比較小那可以讓這種彼此競爭的這種關係會稍微減緩一下但因為我知道就是在評估那個的時候呢看起來可能有十幾二十項嘛"},{"start":7318.73,"end":7343.5,"text":"那這個是機密的部分所以我覺得這個看是不是能夠比如說我們在這幾個禮拜的時候呢我們在辦公室稍微討論一下就是說我們在設計的那一個加擠的部分要讓基層感受到說它是被公平對待的我覺得這個事情是重要的就是說加擠這個部分有問題像我們要討論的是加擠的方式能不能夠讓他們感覺到說我真的因為我的工作被加擠所以這個部分我們就之後再來討論好 那這個"},{"start":7347.343,"end":7368.269,"text":"下一個這個問題雖然它不是跟加擠直接相關這個是我們跟國防部調的資料這是空軍的正旗班他們的體檢前跟體檢後藍色的部分是他在大疫的時候他可能有做體檢他有一個人數"},{"start":7369.909,"end":7397.967,"text":"紅色的部分是那個大三下的時候做了體檢之後呢發現他可能不適合所以他就不繼續做這個飛行生那其實我覺得這個解釋的空間可能很大而且我覺得數字不一定代表真實狀況但至少有一點我覺得值得注意就是因為他一定就是你大一的時候做體檢大三再做中間一定會有落差嘛因為過了一段時間那過了一段時間之後一定會有人掉這個沒問題而且你們還會另外可能不管是從"},{"start":7400.007,"end":7421.472,"text":"這個專班的方式等等你會補人 這個是OK的那但是你看這個2016到2021的時候我覺得那個中間會少的那個人數是滿恆定的但是從2021到2025有加大啦尤其是2025你看他這個是200到150也就是說他從因為這個體檢的方式然後因為離開這個的人數是變多了那這個變多當然你們會有你們補的方式這個OK"},{"start":7428.715,"end":7446.854,"text":"但是到底會不會是他們的意願的問題還是說因為普遍來講這幾年大家的健康的因素這個解釋的空間太多了我們大概很難從數字直接呈現但目前來講有沒有針對這件事情稍微了解一下為什麼這個東西的那個那一個少的人數會變多那個比例會變多"},{"start":7447.884,"end":7465.121,"text":"所以 委員好 我是公益參謀長就能夠回答的回答就可以就幾個部分跟您報告您看到現在上面的那個紅色跟藍色的差異最主要是兩個部分就是畢業前的體檢我們入學的時候體檢主要是畢業之後的最主要兩個原因是一個是近視"},{"start":7465.962,"end":7484.143,"text":"当然因为学生滑手机的多嘛所以说近视的比例高那另外一个最主要的原因是心脏的部分对 我也有听说我们要上飞行线要做离心肌的这个测试所以说很多一部分是在心脏的检查没有过那这个部分是必须在飞行就是在三年级"},{"start":7484.964,"end":7505.852,"text":"結束之前才能做的一個部分那您剛剛提的這個意願的部分這個我們在每一屆的飛行生他的淘汰的狀況我們會有做一個統計那可能也是因為現在少子化抗壓性的問題這個部分確實也有比之前的比例要稍微高一點所以因為有時候心臟的因素就很多元嘛 對不對就很難去講"},{"start":7507.293,"end":7532.561,"text":"那我們也不是說要去懷疑或什麼之類的但是我們就想因為今天談到家計談到福利這一塊就想說他們對他們未來的期待到底是什麼因為畢竟他來參加應該是非常有意願那有沒有可能他這個意願在中間降低數字不一定代表但是就像剛剛講的做實際的調查有可能會知道是不是有人他就是不想他不想再繼續了那不想再繼續如果人數變多的話我覺得這還是一個警訊那"},{"start":7534.181,"end":7552.364,"text":"可以有補的方法當然是最好但是這個警訊我覺得要正視如果是福利如果真的去調查過後如果是跟福利相關的我們當然是跟加擠跟福利這個部分還要再做滾動式的檢討但如果今天是像剛剛講的健康的因素比如說像近視或者說跟心臟有關那是不是可以考慮更早的時候發現"},{"start":7553.445,"end":7576.002,"text":"比如說他因為剛剛講的那一個心臟相關的這些測試他可能是後面那一次他在測嘛是不是他前面那一次沒有測沒有那如果說他早一點發現的話那他也可以早一點就解脫嘛他也知道他再過幾年他的心臟他已經那個時候測已經出現了問題那這樣的話我們才可以真的知道就是你前後都有測一樣的那我們就可以真的知道到底是健康的問題還是醫院的問題"},{"start":7577.663,"end":7599.092,"text":"我覺得這個要正視因為你看2021可能還好你看22 23它就是一直加大那這個我們可能要稍微了解一下狀況但也有可能像你講的有可能是壓力那現在這個國際情勢不同啊跟他當時進來的預想不同啊我覺得這個都應該去討論那在如果說有在這個相關調查的時候我們隨時滾動式的來看一下到底真實的原因是什麼"},{"start":7600.473,"end":7618.829,"text":"那再來就是目前這個因為院長有提到就是明年要擴大這一個城鎮的任性演習那裡面呢這一次這個權動署有提到說要檢視各類動員法規加強宣導台灣全民安全指引深化任性演習效能那"},{"start":7620.33,"end":7648.175,"text":"這個部分是有因為他的第一句話講的要動員法規那這邊我有點不太了解就是說是要動哪些法規是有想要修哪些法規嗎目前盤點了有什麼在今年的話內政部的部分就是民防有兩個一個是民防團隊編組訓練演習服務勤及支援軍事勤務辦法另外一個就是那個替代義男服役期滿後"},{"start":7649.716,"end":7657.836,"text":"召集胡情的實施辦法這兩條所以都是辦法層級他沒有需要到這個直接立法院這一邊的修法嗎"},{"start":7660.196,"end":7687.785,"text":"對 現在是暫時是在辦法這個層級上面好那因為時間的關係我快速問一下下一題因為這一題我覺得是稍微要注意的一點就是目前高雄左營的這一個都市計畫那因為有這一個蠻多的這一個反應是在講說左營軍港的周邊的限高的問題因為它現在本來就已經有蠻多高樓在那一邊那新的都市計畫又會有更多的高樓那這個高樓目前在法規上的限制它這個"},{"start":7689.125,"end":7716.532,"text":"因為之前我們在討論這個要塞堡壘什麼等等之類的還有討論到這個關鍵基礎設施但這個是屬於鄰近的土地那鄰近的土地的開發案他從上往下看的時候看這個軍港是一覽無遺那如果說他有更多的都市計畫的話這邊有沒有跟地方政府去討論有沒有針對那個鄰近土地的那個都市新的那個都市開發案他們的限高或他們的視野這個部分有沒有先去溝通因為這是即將要發生的事情"},{"start":7719.93,"end":7743.909,"text":"因為我們左營有所謂的直升機的一個飛航路徑所以我們目前針對直升機的飛航路徑周邊有做了一個限高跟必要的一個查查跟巡檢那也依照這是用飛行路徑去限制飛行路徑去看那因為旁邊的這個路徑這個高樓的部分這個應該也一段時間了然後又會有新的"},{"start":7744.429,"end":7756.219,"text":"所以我覺得這個可能要去了解一下那了解一下之後我們後續來做最終我覺得這件事情蠻重要的因為之前在花蓮的時候我們有問過類似的問題那現在是在高雄那因為時間關係我先問到這邊謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":7781.921,"end":7782.942,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長 是因為"},{"start":7793.21,"end":7813.629,"text":"部長早安賴總統在上個禮拜宣示了就是我們要來編列的這個1.25兆的國防特別預算那麼其實這個本席在國防外交委員會也曾經多次的質詢那麼這樣的一個國防預算1.25兆出來之後因為其實是8年但是呢很多時候被這個"},{"start":7814.83,"end":7826.118,"text":"要擋軍購的人一講好像就1.25兆好多喔那我們國家的預算是不是都拿去了其實用簡單的數學來除一除就知道說這個一年喔只要這個1562.5億其實對於我們國家目前的財政是絕對可以負擔的而這個"},{"start":7833.303,"end":7840.872,"text":"有國防其實才有安全那麼其實你也曾經宣示了就是說在這個國防產業當中最重要的是連經濟部都做了圖卡就是說接下來在這個特別預算當中我們不只是打造國安國防更要有產業的亮年而經濟部還說這個有打造產業"},{"start":7852.845,"end":7858.168,"text":"自主量能的部分有航太機器狗船艦無人載機具跟衛星的五大產業而您同時也對外發布了說在這個產業量能當中會提供9萬個工作機會跟4千億的產能"},{"start":7869.833,"end":7881.944,"text":"言下之意就是要讓全民知道我們在國防的部分不只是花錢我們更有機會來打造在非紅產業鏈當中一個非常重要的位子但是我特別去調了一下財政部的資料我們無人機確實是這個產能"},{"start":7887.128,"end":7890.79,"text":"澳人在2024年呢我們只有441萬美元但是截至今年10月為止已經高達了5,475萬美元也就是高達12倍那我認為確實這個數字跟這些部分都是應該讓國人知道的不過本席要問部長的是部長您知道嗎在這個整體的產業的部分喔現在無人機只有商用的"},{"start":7916.505,"end":7938.766,"text":"也就是軍規商用的部分其實是無法出口的也就是言下之意本席收到的狀況是說那麼在打造非紅供應鏈的狀況底下其實我們的無人機的這些產量跟量能絕對不可能是只留在台灣是吧"},{"start":7940.27,"end":7959.864,"text":"那麼就本席今年6月得到陳情之後所知道的一個狀況是這樣就是我們整機的所謂軍規商用的無人機如果要出口那必須向經濟部的貿易署來經經過申請可是呢我們有一個叫做"},{"start":7961.185,"end":7976.433,"text":"戰略性高科技貨品輸出管理辦法但是我們軍用的無人機是沒有這個辦法言下之意就是說雖然我們現在放眼未來我們無人機要進入全球市場"},{"start":7977.313,"end":8001.853,"text":"但是是沒有辦法的也就是說我們就算申請出來了也沒有辦法對外輸出因為根本就沒有這個出口的規範那麼本席在今年六月詢問了之後那麼當然也跨部會的去了解兜了一圈很像鬼打牆一樣就是經濟部說必須要有國防部"},{"start":8002.994,"end":8020.726,"text":"給予相關的國防的建議我也認同因為包括輸出的辦法當中要如何來訂定規範這個很重要所以需要國防部的建議但是呢國防部前一陣子你們都在處理任性相關的這個特別預算"},{"start":8021.667,"end":8034.543,"text":"沒有時間但是從六月到現在已經經過半年了本席希望再透過今天的質詢能夠點出這個問題就是當我們放眼接下來在我們的國防產能當中我們要發展"},{"start":8037.706,"end":8039.407,"text":"進入所謂的非紅產應鏈讓台灣可以有機會成為輸出這些軍工產品的國家的時候那麼規定在哪裡有沒有要制定相關的規定現在重點是如果連辦法都沒有"},{"start":8053.877,"end":8063.26,"text":"那難道是要我們國內自己買嗎不可能嘛 是不是一定要有市場那麼在全球的市場當中我就問有沒有做跨部會的溝通然後有關於這個輸出的管理辦法能不能出來那何時可以出來"},{"start":8071.79,"end":8088.798,"text":"委員好 我是軍備局局長非常感謝委員的指導我們的無人機區分為一 軍用軍規軍用軍規就是由我們中科院來生產製造它只要滿足我們國內的戰備需求我們就可以依規定來呈報出口這是沒問題的"},{"start":8089.778,"end":8117.997,"text":"那第二個是軍用商規的部分假如是這個無人機不管是我們市面上很多有名的公司比如中光電雷虎等等的生產的商規的無人機他是不需要我們國防部來核准啊今天的問題就是他想要帶著火藥一起出口可是民間廠商按照刀械槍砲刀械管制條例他是不可能會有火藥的所以"},{"start":8118.337,"end":8119.2,"text":"我的火藥是不可能賣給民間廠商所以這個部分也在國安會都已經研討過了暫時跟委員說明"},{"start":8126.523,"end":8150.179,"text":"您提到的是有關於火藥的部分我現在提到的是在這樣的一個所謂高科技產品的輸出管理辦法當中是缺乏一個辦法以至於在整體的過程當中經濟部說因為國防部國安局沒有給辦法所以對於本席來說本席在乎的不是個案的問題"},{"start":8150.919,"end":8173.13,"text":"本席在乎的是這樣的一個管理辦法戰略性高科技貨品輸出的管理辦法現在沒有制定出來那麼局長您剛剛講的是軍用軍規軍用軍規商用那另外商規都不管你們現在是在軍規商用的部分連管理辦法都沒有"},{"start":8173.55,"end":8179.975,"text":"那剛剛您提到的是所謂個案有什麼需求但本席要追蹤的是辦法因為我從經濟部貿易局這裡所得到的是根本連辦法都沒有那麼是不是真是如此呢那如果是這樣的話接下來我們"},{"start":8190.762,"end":8191.082,"text":"跟委員報告 就這個議題在現在"},{"start":8212.734,"end":8229.092,"text":"在國安會應該就要做一個跨部會的一個協調然後我們要由國安會做一個政策性的一個指導那麼在這個政策性的指導之下我想國安部會跟經濟部來合作就這個"},{"start":8233.052,"end":8257.098,"text":"特別是以如果講以無人機作為一個例子的話那我們到底如何該跟民主同盟國家打造一個在一個非紅供應鏈的前提之下能夠進行相關的合作那這些合作不只是包括了一個技術的合作那也包括了我們關鍵民主圈的出口那甚至剛剛委員提到了整機的出口這個部分可能都要做一個整體的規劃"},{"start":8257.918,"end":8285.07,"text":"沒錯本席特別提出來質詢就是說對於我們來講過去喔民眾可能都還停留在是台灣要對外買軍購沒錯就像這一次我們編的1.25兆的預算但是除此之外台灣在其他的這些國防自主的部分我們也是有機會輸出尤其是像無人機所以我特別請求的是說國防部在有關於軍規無人機的部分你在出口的部分"},{"start":8285.43,"end":8311.174,"text":"到底有沒有審查的原則標準然後如何在跨部會當中跟經濟部跟相關的單位做一個跨部會的整合去把這樣的標準跟規定制定出來這樣子在我們可以有機會量產或對外來銷售的時候才有機會能夠拿下這些訂單讓我們真正所看到的9萬個工作機會4千億的產能真的能夠展現出來"},{"start":8315.058,"end":8328.833,"text":"對 因為這個其實跟委員坦白講這個就涉及到我們能夠輸出的哪些國家然後輸出國家最後它的最終使用者那這些其實我們要做一些整體性的考量"},{"start":8329.383,"end":8348.164,"text":"好所以呢我希望在這個部分齁還是要能夠趕快先把規定規範制定出來好接下來下一個我要詢問的當然也是跟今天的主題有關啦齁就是在你們的報告當中其實我很認真的做了一個整理也就是各式的勤務加擠喔但是裡面卻看不到心腹的部分"},{"start":8348.644,"end":8362.878,"text":"那麼有關於新府的部分呢本席除了非常關注之外我想之前在去年的4月24號就是當時是我們國防外交的委員但現在是勞動部長的洪森翰部長他也曾經質詢過就是其實對於我們整體"},{"start":8366.421,"end":8380.047,"text":"軍中的這樣的一些有關於心腹的部分那麼國軍同仁在面臨勤務上面或者在軍中生活當中所面對的心理的壓力其實是存在的但是就整個報告來看從2015到2024年度有7項的加擠那麼2025年的調整的加擠又有5項那麼未來規劃的部分有戰鬥加擠"},{"start":8391.671,"end":8398.293,"text":"有航管加擠有反情報加擠有市官長督導的加擠等等但是依舊沒有看到新府人員的加擠在這個部分喔我想是非常重要的而如果說今天他們沒有放上來是因為國防部認為沒有需求呢還是說其實這個不在你們的規劃當中"},{"start":8416.216,"end":8444.6,"text":"跟委員報告 其實新府加擠的部分我們其實有在研究 那也在去年11月的時候有情報 呈報來行政院審議那行政院目前給我們回覆的審議結果初步是沒有同意那我們還在增強相關的一個論述希望以後有機會可以再繼續爭取好 這個行政院不同意喔 一定有他的理由那麼我所知道的理由是是不是說因為是有證照已經有證照加擠 是這樣嗎還是說有其他的理由 理由是什麼"},{"start":8446.235,"end":8475.206,"text":"跟委員報告 其實陣仗應該不是他他的確在會審相關部會的時候譬如說像衛福部或是其他部會他們都有相關的一個東西所以我想行政院他是一個整體的考量那他目前大概跟我們回的理由大概是說國軍還是以國家的防衛任務這樣子的一個為主然後新府的人力目前看起來在邊線筆上面也沒有像主戰部隊一樣有這麼急迫性的一個需求"},{"start":8475.806,"end":8501.181,"text":"所以這個相關的一些審查意見我們還在加強論述好我希望在這個部分我們還是要注意起來因為對於部隊當中所面臨的心理上面所需要諮詢的部分那麼我知道其實你們的人力上如果以每一年所畢業的心腹相關然後進入部隊的人數上面其實也是不夠的對於他們來講他們身為心腹的這些相關的同仁啊他們"},{"start":8502.441,"end":8512.908,"text":"國軍弟兄啊他們在部隊當中他們所承受的壓力其實也很大一個人可能要對好幾個這個部隊上面所需要的需求量所以我也認為如果可以的話我也想幫他們爭取就是必要的加擠"},{"start":8519.821,"end":8529.146,"text":"就這個部分如同剛剛沈國昌市長講的我們有提出來那我想我們就這個部分我們會再來加強論述來爭取好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8539.555,"end":8551.205,"text":"等一下我們先宣告就是待會兒王定宇委員質詢完畢以後先休息五分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們先請部長請顧部長"},{"start":8575.362,"end":8599.221,"text":"是 成為部長好部長上週我們聽到有幾位國會議員其實不只國會議員還有很多的在媒體的評論者都一直說台灣要不要成為烏克蘭這樣子的議題部長有什麼樣的看法台灣現在的關鍵就在於是說"},{"start":8600.816,"end":8611.304,"text":"我們確實面臨了一個強敵揚言要以武力來併吞台灣這個是我們台灣現在正面臨的這個處境在"},{"start":8614.594,"end":8631.739,"text":"烏克蘭的這個部分當然俄羅斯他也是作為一個強權然後來威脅這個烏克蘭所以我們確實有面對相同一個鄰近的一個牆底的威脅的一個狀態存在"},{"start":8633.462,"end":8659.128,"text":"但台灣它在這個印太地區地緣政治的重要性至於對全球經濟的這個重要性呢我想具有這個不可替代的一個地位那麼台灣在現在要做的呢那就是我們現在所一直在強調的我們要以實力來追求和平"},{"start":8659.912,"end":8667.395,"text":"以實力來爭取我們現狀的維持那這個部分不是只有我們台灣"},{"start":8669.968,"end":8689.653,"text":"來獨自面對我想整個印太區域的國家也都感受到了中國軍事擴張的一個威脅所以在這個部分上各國也掐中了他們的國防預算然後來一起協同來進行一個集體性的一個嚇阻"},{"start":8690.342,"end":8706.418,"text":"那我想我簡單的回應就是剛才部長講的都對那我自己認為是在野黨跟這些部分的評論者是問錯的問題因為重點是中國要不要成為俄羅斯要成為衰弱封閉被抵制的俄羅斯發動戰爭的是俄羅斯發動衝突的是俄羅斯"},{"start":8708.24,"end":8736.685,"text":"那導致整個俄羅斯從過去的這種天然資源紅利到被所有60多萬人死傷引發10多萬的經濟人才外逃經濟上面甚至造成只能靠軍工產業苦撐失去歐洲能源市場同時成為全球被抵制最多的國家身負多項制裁最後還被踢出Swift的金融系統我想這個問題要問清楚中國要成為俄羅斯嗎要成為一個衰弱的帝國嗎所以很多時候"},{"start":8738.104,"end":8752.055,"text":"這一黨也好或者是部分的評論者也好一直在提到這個問題好像是把這一種發動戰略者的責任去歸屬到被害者被害國我覺得這是對烏克蘭是不公平的那對台灣也是不公平的"},{"start":8753.308,"end":8771.559,"text":"最近我看到有一些像是什麼什麼和平示威啊和平的這個要和平對我們要和平但是我們是要反侵略啊發動武力的不是我們啊我想這些論述我們要很清楚的去講那我還要再次強調不要只有在烏克蘭勝利的時候我們跟烏克蘭站在一起"},{"start":8772.139,"end":8784.098,"text":"我看到在戰事初期的時候在戰爭開始這個烏克蘭成功的這樣反攻的時候哇 所有的部會首長能蹭的盡量都蹭現在遇到挑戰的時候不知道躲到哪裡去可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":8785.393,"end":8812.304,"text":"我們剛剛提到說台灣的重要性是因為有很多國際的盟友會來支持我們包含我們的半導體的產業鏈包含我們的非紅供應鏈我們在遇到困難的時候我們希望人家來幫助我們那別人遇到困難的時候我們就要拋棄他嗎是不可以的所以我還是要強調包含日本我們上個上禮拜跟上上禮拜不斷的在這個國會的殿堂有提到我們跟日本的友好日本儘管是在有和平憲法的框架之下他們還是提供大量的裝備"},{"start":8813.704,"end":8828.91,"text":"資源給烏克蘭這就是在體制內我們要創造的是一個我們能夠有能力在我們遇到挑戰的時候其他的盟國敢站出來願意站出來願意提供資源如果在日本的和平框架之下都能的話我們更應該要這麼做"},{"start":8829.85,"end":8858.706,"text":"那當然烏克蘭有他自己國內的政治情勢那他們跟中國之間的關係以及怕中國再加強介入的這樣子的狀況我們都可以理解但是我認為我們必須要主動的去思考並且去應用他們在對這個俄羅斯的侵略戰爭的每一項技術每一項能力包含他們的薪資的這個部分為什麼要得到薪資因為烏克蘭的這個部隊他的最低的工資跟他的戰鬥獎金這些是我們都可以來去思考的部分"},{"start":8860.431,"end":8880.228,"text":"從2025年開始 儘管因為他們的國家是相對的在經濟跟我們這個人均所的是不成比例的但是他們對於戰區加水指揮的加急 戰鬥的加急還有特別的獎金 特別的獎金我覺得更應該要提到我這次在讀我們的報導裡面有提到說包含我們的情報人員 這個我們都會有加急"},{"start":8882.149,"end":8909.206,"text":"過去我們國家還曾經都會有派一些情報人員在中國現在可能沒有辦法畢竟中國的這個科技監控的能力是很強的但是我們可以思考說對於執行特殊任務或者是從這個傷病中的被捕人員我們現在沒有遇到這些狀況但是從烏克蘭直接第一線面對的我們都可以來去思考如果我們是全面性普發性質的把每一位這個軍職人員都增加的話"},{"start":8910.026,"end":8929.544,"text":"不符合效率也不符合公平性特別是在這個烏克蘭的武裝部隊裡面他們也還有再去細分身處戰區但沒有直接交火的跟身處戰區直接交火的跟直接交火又受傷治療中或者是被拘禁的都有做很細部的去做分區"},{"start":8930.485,"end":8948.58,"text":"所以這些資料我是建議國防部未來可以去做全面性的參考特別是烏克蘭的這個這樣子的薪資結構跟他的特殊獎金某種程度是足以支撐他們面對曾經是這個世界強國的俄羅斯能夠支撐這麼久並且能夠有打出非常好的戰果是我們可以去參考的對象"},{"start":8949.341,"end":8967.171,"text":"那2014年到這個2020年就是在這個克里米亞之後其實烏克蘭的國防預算是有增加但是沒有顯著性的增加導致於他們最後在面對俄羅斯的這個侵略的時候其實也是處處受制的"},{"start":8967.931,"end":8984.49,"text":"那後來他們也在做自我檢討假設從2014年這一次從那個時候的這個克里米亞之後他們能夠投入更多的資源的話可能對事後的這樣子的國土的防衛是有更大的幫助那中國是不可能給我們第二次機會中國不會再像"},{"start":8985.171,"end":9010.617,"text":"俄羅斯一樣因為它限制它限制於俄羅斯自己的國力它大概一次沒有辦法把這個烏克蘭這麼廣大的國土那做出這個徹底的征服所以他們有兩次的機會但我們台灣可能沒有兩次的機會所以為什麼會有1.25兆來分多年來去做這個預算它是有它的必要性的那所以對於戰鬥人員對於這一個戰區加急這些我是希望這些資料現在"},{"start":9011.437,"end":9028.86,"text":"都有那請國防部跟薪資相關的去參考未來也都可以去做相關的參考那再來我要請教部長這一個我要關心一下我們嘉義中埔的這個九月份成功領的這一個受傷的國軍弟兄那"},{"start":9030.321,"end":9052.814,"text":"我先強調一下因為我們看到說最新的三種的這個有提供很好的這個醫療協助也是有一個類似的今年年初的受傷軍人他有利用這一個相關的虛擬頭骨3D鏈技術恢復他的整個整張臉那我想請教我們我們嘉義的子弟那個國軍弟兄目前的康復狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":9055.191,"end":9071.717,"text":"是 鮑威人 軍事局副局長陳耀浩這邊報告就是說他在三種部分來講的時候目前來講狀況相當穩定但是因為這個感染的部分來講比較厲害所以我們經過多次的清創部分來講說目前已經稍微穩定了"},{"start":9072.177,"end":9088.667,"text":"那麼對於這個頭骨或是顱骨底的部分我們也會利用比較剛剛委員所提到這些科技的部分能夠給它做比較良好的重建但前提是它必須要能夠這個讓這個感染的部分能夠降低我們盡全力把這個部分處理好謝謝委員"},{"start":9090.709,"end":9107.605,"text":"謝謝 這其實我們1.25兆的國防預算當然在醫療的部分我們也是要放注在裡面因為除了第一線的戰鬥人員的話那在這些提供醫療協助這些創新科技上面對於商業人的補助 幫助我想也是非常重要的那所以我想這是一個很成功的案例那也感謝"},{"start":9109.087,"end":9132.903,"text":"這個三種有類似這樣的技術那敢於去把這些創新的技術弄在我們的商園上面我想這是非常重要的特別是對我們的鄉親來講是非常重要的再來我們請中科院今天有來嗎院長我來提院長我們簡單請教一下這個關於無人機接管的技術"},{"start":9137.06,"end":9153.813,"text":"院長請教一下無人機接管的技術是必備嗎就是說在我們現在接下來因為我看到我們在本月14日國土辦委託中科院在關鍵基礎設施無人機反制系統說明會裡面有提到把接管takeover列為籌建的必備功能"},{"start":9155.359,"end":9183.979,"text":"我聽到的聲音是因為我們有院長我都有邀請你就很多產業鏈的人都有來他們認為說Takeover這個接管的這個技術性可能沒有直接反制不管是用物理適應的殺傷還是直接干擾上的殺傷來得快速那他們也提到這個科技的局限性看到他的問題就是說可能只能針對舊型或少數品牌有效如果把它列為必備功能的話會不會反而在我們籌貨無人機的反制無人機的能力上面反而會"},{"start":9185.577,"end":9213.824,"text":"減緩我們的這個能力的這個取樣因為我們如果又要這個又要且要全都要的話那意思就是說吃人就是分散掉了那對於硬殺也好 干擾也好我想這是這個在Priority是比較前面的可是如果你又要接管那你接管的這個無人機你又必須要想像它是不是本身是有爆裂物在裡面它的目的性 情報性是以情報為主還是以故意要攻擊性為主這個我想請院長可不可以簡單來回應一下真的有必要把它認為必備嗎"},{"start":9215.104,"end":9243.199,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會澄清我們幫這麼多關鍵基礎設施去設定它採購的條件Takeover只是它功能之一並不是必要的條件所以不是必備的條件我們只是把所有的都列出來你可以按照你關鍵基礎設施的需求你自己去針對我們列在共計上說合格廠商的名單去選擇你要的功能它並不是必備條件所以院長我簡單這麼說所以它不是反無人機的必備功能"},{"start":9243.519,"end":9257.104,"text":"他可能只是針對特殊場域作為選配的能力的部分嗎但是這個只有我們幫國土辦定的規格這個是在這樣子他是列入選配的條件而已所以選配不是必備不是好 謝謝院長 感謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":9275.353,"end":9277.818,"text":"好 謝主席麻煩部長有請顧部長"},{"start":9286.963,"end":9315.515,"text":"是 王偉好保證老闆我先追蹤一下我們之前在11月13號一樣討論的是薪資跟我們部隊結構的問題當時我們提到兩個其實基本上是兩個概念第一個我們現在在計算我們的邊線比是用全軍平均78%當然這個有參考價值但在管理的意義上在決策的意義上呢其實它的參考度比較低所以當時我就建議第一個"},{"start":9316.115,"end":9339.362,"text":"我們應該分軍種分兵科分單位去算出它的邊線比如果它是屬於機密我們應該可以機密專報就是說邊線比要分兵科就常常講的你拿資源性的行政單位的跟第一類第二類作戰單位去平均計算這個數據呢這個數據沒辦法告訴我任何事情我沒辦法決策"},{"start":9340.407,"end":9366.389,"text":"第二個一定要像美軍一樣把那個臨界值也就是最小戰力域值這個threshold把它算出來那這兩個數據我就可以知道說這個單位的邊線比現狀是55它的最小臨界點應該要到81或80我就知道缺額多少那缺額來自於什麼原因我才能做決策應該讓它加擠多一點讓主觀管的什麼樣的東西多一點"},{"start":9367.39,"end":9386.027,"text":"才能做我們招募跟兵力配置的依據所以當時質詢是第一個重點在這裡第二個重點在於我們一定要面對一個現實少子化這不是台灣而已美國 日本 歐盟 德國 台灣都一樣少子化是一個客觀現實所以當我們在採購現代軍備的時候"},{"start":9388.089,"end":9409.042,"text":"反而要把少子化的因素納為前置條件我這一個裝備一樣的戰力這需要兩個兵那個需要八個兵那我應該要考慮這一個就是說我們在AI自動化現代化的導入的時候人力人員的配置要納入考量這兩個結合起來的話我就要請教第一個問題"},{"start":9411.044,"end":9421.336,"text":"邊縣筆的呈現採取分科分種分單位而且要列出最小戰力域值我們國安部願不願意這樣做什麼時候可以把它提出來"},{"start":9422.85,"end":9447.315,"text":"我們關於委員所提到的戰略預指現在是有在研議是有在進行研議各單位的編輯本來就在我們在討論各項相關的調整的時候都會把它拿什麼時候可以呈現因為部長我剛才講的這個如果牽涉到機敏我們可以機密"},{"start":9448.055,"end":9467.097,"text":"但是不管是參謀本部或者部長這邊軍政軍令系統這個數據很重要啊就是說我這個單位要百分之多少的邊線比他才能出去作戰而他現狀是多少不足的原因在哪裡我才能根據這個才知道說我們薪資啦"},{"start":9468.038,"end":9490.985,"text":"或者加幾我應該往哪邊加把人力補到我們必要的那有的單位一半就能作業了那50%他現在邊線比60%也許沒有那麼優先所以不知道你懂我意思嗎這一個數字可能是你們做決策或者我們在這邊討論預算很重要的基礎數據你們什麼時候可以拿出來未來我們在委員會能不能採取這樣的看法"},{"start":9492.678,"end":9497.843,"text":"邊線比各單位最小域值多少距離差距多少或者已經超過了"},{"start":9499.268,"end":9523.402,"text":"什麼時候可以把它提出來就現在的你現在是說現在部隊的各部隊的邊線比我想這個已經是有既有的資料不過據我了解沒有最小域值這個東西對那現在因為委員在提到的就是所謂的最小域值這個概念那這個概念我們要再請各軍種來做一個評估那現在正在還在進行當中就是說"},{"start":9524.249,"end":9543.015,"text":"我這邊列的第一個跟第二個我們在委員會有多次建議的一個是科學化的管理我現在兵力到底不足在哪一個單位在海軍到底是艦艇還是岸基艦艇是一二三級哪一種是因為這個小船特別顛簸某一型所以他兵線比比較低"},{"start":9543.915,"end":9572.117,"text":"那科技上能不能解決或者那個特別辛苦我的家籍該怎麼加把人留住這個是一套的然後加上第二個我剛才講我們現在的採購武器一樣的8吋流一樣的砲用8個人或者用3個人會不會自走存活率這都要納入考量所以人事預算及各項家籍應該根據這個來計算我也希望跟國民黨民眾黨好朋友因為國家安全沒有什麼國防沒有黨派之分"},{"start":9572.938,"end":9597.746,"text":"我們應該去思考我們現在一直在討論這個齊頭式的加薪不管加3萬加5萬加多少我們都很喜歡哪個人不喜歡加薪但是如果我們討論到國家的國防戰力的話是不是可以思考說我們把這個預算的總額來跟國防部談然後讓國防部把這個總額透過說來海軍陸戰隊邊線比偏低但我們確實需要這個單位把它加幾條高碼"},{"start":9598.891,"end":9619.091,"text":"或者高專精高專長飛行員飛行員我們希望做商比達到多少那我們現在像續服獎金只有續服那一年有再來就沒有了那是不是叫他留一年第二年就考慮離開就續服獎金要不要一直讓他超過年限就一直有又比方說我們上次提到了聯營的士官長"},{"start":9620.902,"end":9637.99,"text":"或者軍官他的戰鬥佳績連有贏沒有這不合理嘛會變反淘汰變成我看我就做到這個官機身上去我反而薪水少了好多這個其實才能去把戰力把人力配置在最需要的地方"},{"start":9639.291,"end":9655.073,"text":"齊頭市的加薪大家高興但齊頭市的加薪其實對於把人力配置在需要的地方對國家未必是好事尤其部隊各項專長加擠地域加擠那是很專業的東西所以我請教部長就是說"},{"start":9656.052,"end":9671.3,"text":"我跟委員報告兩個第一個就是說有關最小域子的部分我們正在研究不過現在這個最小域子的部分我認為還有涉及到屏占的轉換的問題因為平時我們有一個一定維持的一個"},{"start":9672.28,"end":9687.13,"text":"在戰演性任務底下的一個預指另外一個戰時的話我們靠邊時或跨邊動員之後會把整個戰力再透過臨戰訓練再把它提升這是兩個可能不同的我想我們會在每個部隊小到任何一個艦隊或者甚至任何一個艦或者是任何一個主戰"},{"start":9695.835,"end":9714.804,"text":"部隊的每一個營那都要可能他一個火力營或一個現在要進的裝甲旅或者等等這些可能都要做一些細部的研究所以委員給我們這個概念我想我們會來各軍會來做一些細部研討但是平時跟戰時我覺得還是有不同平時戰時"},{"start":9716.625,"end":9737.391,"text":"預值一定不一樣 一定不一樣應該是不一樣那第二點就是說有關那個整個戰鬥部隊的這個定義到底是不是要維持在一個連級的層級而已因為本身戰鬥部隊如果你來講一個裝甲旅他就是一個戰鬥部隊那所以在什麼樣的情況之下我們跟行政院來好好討論一下"},{"start":9737.911,"end":9766.67,"text":"對 我覺得需要我們幫你們說是 戰鬥部隊的定義贏不算連算這其實是不合不合現狀的完全不合現狀而且那會造成反淘汰所以我剛才提一個建議這個我個人的期待我期待在野黨期待我們國防部期待我們的執政單位大家坐下來談我們不要卡在平均齊頭市加薪這三萬塊當然我了解在憲法在所有的預算法相關上確實那個是有違憲的疑慮"},{"start":9768.492,"end":9791.352,"text":"我相信藍白陣營的朋友聽不下去但另外一面我們如果真的要幫國軍加薪又考慮到戰力的最佳配置其實根據所有的法律都應該行政部門跟立法部門坐下來談我們把這個總額把它框出來然後讓國防部提出一個最佳的預算的人事資源的配置讓我們的人留在對的地方"},{"start":9792.173,"end":9805.925,"text":"而不要卡在一個國防部應該有政黨黨派的本位而是應該去思考怎麼做讓我們的戰力更好軍力更好這是我期待所以我剛剛講的那個以聯兵旅來看那我們作為一個聯兵旅作為一個戰鬥單位我們從這個畫面來思考"},{"start":9808.908,"end":9829.321,"text":"我看到你們在加急尤其過去十年來我們加薪大概六次以上多數都是用這種概念加急的讓人配在對的地方我現在請教強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的特別預算有人說沒有急迫性沒有必要性我開放的讓部長回答一下"},{"start":9830.262,"end":9855.884,"text":"那另外2027年2035年2049年這薛瑞福的說法2027是其實賴總統提出2027那個不是說那一天會發生什麼事而是2027是各國尤其盟友很關注的年份這個意義跟急迫性必要性部長的看法是什麼那我在那邊看到有人竟然主張零軍購就零戰爭零風險先去看看他家門有沒有裝啦他家如果有裝門有裝門鎖的話"},{"start":9858.632,"end":9882.548,"text":"那是不是就零大門 零窗戶 零門鎖 就零小偷這如果不是幼稚那根本就是侵略者的走狗 我講重一點的話每個國家都需要國防 何況台灣面對這麼大威脅零軍購 那乾脆零國防那這就百分百投降嘛所以這種主張大概只有侵略者高興真正要求減少軍購 減少風險應該向侵略者要求"},{"start":9886.351,"end":9903.804,"text":"威脅別人的放下武器才叫和平保護自己的人放下武器叫做投降基本觀念都分不清楚到底是站在哪一邊那我請教你對這個強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力1.25兆的特別預算條例急迫性跟必要性在哪裡請部長回答"},{"start":9904.688,"end":9926.523,"text":"我想簡單的就是說我們要考量這個中國軍事實力跟他這個反介入也就是有盟資源的能力不斷的增長就這個部分的話我們也已經有一再的提到就是說現在不管是灰色攜帶地帶的灰色灰帶的洗澡並同這個軍事威懾的這樣的一個負荷是威脅"},{"start":9927.584,"end":9934.03,"text":"已經讓我們感受到他們由訊轉眼 由言轉戰的預警時間越來越縮短所以我們當前是要迫切的就這個"},{"start":9941.756,"end":9962.236,"text":"為了應對當前的破屑我們要具備我那天在總統府記者會裡面有提到我們要加速完備多域聚責能力建構一個多層次的防衛體系這是一個嚇阻力量的建構你剛才提到一點我不好意思我追問那一點你說因為過去"},{"start":9965.939,"end":9992.658,"text":"從迅轉眼從嚴轉戰不管從2049辦公室那個伊安伊斯頓所寫的書或過去的評估都說中國要籌備武力犯台以前都說最少需要60天的準備部長我問這個比較敏感一點你可以回答就回答以你們現在判斷中國解放軍如果要武力犯台他從準備到發動攻擊那個時間到底縮短到多短"},{"start":9994.622,"end":10007.211,"text":"我想委員這個問題就可能為難我們都會根據抵可能的行動做好我們這個聯合作案計畫但是我想詳細的可能就不是這個時間你們有嗎我覺得評估應該有"},{"start":10009.973,"end":10027.262,"text":"過去他們從logistic就是他們的所謂的後勤備載去把人員集中物料集中各方面的集中到兩期準備什麼以前一般抓60天到100天這個是過去各個智庫在算的可是我最近一直看到同樣的話說這個準備期"},{"start":10030.253,"end":10048.318,"text":"不斷的縮短 你剛也提到這一塊就是說它從迅轉眼 眼轉站它的時間可能會縮短所以我們要加強多欲聚子 嚇阻力量我剛才聽到是這一個那這個短到底短到縮短的時間到底縮短到什麼幅度或者你方便透露是現在有沒有大幅縮短我想我只能夠這麼說就是說"},{"start":10053.092,"end":10078.889,"text":"你如果看他的針對性的軍演他已經是一個環台的一個在進行一個這樣的一個針對性的軍演所以他以這樣的演習的名義來進行這樣子的一個針對性的一個軍演在我們來看我們就會要我最後問一個我舉一個例子因為情次是在這邊這個謝中將以往為什麼認為他準備期要很長"},{"start":10082.825,"end":10104.7,"text":"是因為他必須把他的軍需 籌措 物流要花一段時間而且透過衛星看就知道他往哪邊集中了他現在還需不需要這樣做還是過去這一二十年他透過不斷的聯合戰備警巡 軍演把他需要的物資都已經放在應對的位置上那個 謝總將"},{"start":10109.475,"end":10130.405,"text":"報委員您剛剛的問題其實已經回答了您剛剛前面您剛剛已經把我們要回答的部分已經先做了提示那剩下細部的我認為我們是不是建議另外找時間我贊成我接受就是說你如果認為機敏不回答就是說局勢的轉變在這裡所以它的急迫性跟必要性"},{"start":10131.431,"end":10142.044,"text":"部長最後幾句話我們把它收尾這一次的特別預算在急迫性跟必要性跟我們剛才看那個只是一個例子其實我們還可以舉更多的例子在哪裡"},{"start":10143.41,"end":10163.766,"text":"我想最主要就是如果預算能夠做這樣一次性的配付我們就能夠資源穩定集中的來加速籌貨所需要的一個戰力嗎那這個是我們提出特別預算的一個編列的一個目的其實你們的集中也是分八年1.25兆分八年一年是1500億"},{"start":10165.988,"end":10180.284,"text":"跟我們財化法整個割走的一點四兆每年其實國家安全的投資是有必要的我們面對威脅那麼大謝謝部長因為時間關係有其他這邊不宜回答的我們私下再進行溝通 謝謝好 謝謝韋好 謝謝那現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10520.997,"end":10526.063,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來請吳宗憲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們麻煩部長有請顧部長"},{"start":10540.8,"end":10552.017,"text":"部長早安您辛苦了我想第一個問題我們就直接來我想請問一下您之前說11月海空號無法交件每天要罰19萬這個部分已經開始要做了嗎"},{"start":10553.506,"end":10578.279,"text":"我們會就按合約來好 那就這個部分麻煩雖然杯水車薪跟他的總金額比起來但是既然已經跟國人說了就麻煩貴部一定要做到不管說這個台船現在到底是什麼人貴部還是要做到那第二個問題我想今天的主軸是軍人加薪待遇結構的檢討那我們都支持軍人"},{"start":10579.774,"end":10604.604,"text":"待遇要提高那我們也絕對支持國防要強化但是我們要問一個很根本的問題立法院三讀通過的軍人待遇條例那每個月要調高加幾這比約300億的預算其實是可以穩定軍心尤其是在兩岸兵凶戰或是總統前幾天講了那個2027的這個事情之後其實穩定軍心穩定民心是非常重要的事情但是我們現在卻發現"},{"start":10606.565,"end":10622.788,"text":"我們對內我們拒絕編列對國軍的加薪預算甚至還提出釋憲來拖延這個完全違憲違反權力分立第二個我們對外卻制定了一兆兩千五百億"},{"start":10624.35,"end":10637.406,"text":"的這個特別預算這史上最大的特別預算而且我國目前在執行的跟國防有關特別預算不是只有這個大家不要誤會了不是只有一照2500億是還有好幾個特別預算目前都在執行都在花錢中"},{"start":10638.928,"end":10656.304,"text":"所以我一直在想就是說我們對於這個300億是0.03兆我們斤斤計較但我們對於美方的1兆2500億卻付得很開心然後一直要讓美國再次偉大那讓美國再次偉大之前可不可以想想讓我們中華民國也稍微偉大一點"},{"start":10658.286,"end":10681.045,"text":"那我想請問一下 在談新的1.25兆的這個軍購之前我想我們到底是在護國軍還是在護美軍我們先算一下舊帳 2019年的那66架F-16V的2470而已原本是2023年第四季就要交兩架2026要完成66架但是我們現在看到的"},{"start":10682.315,"end":10708.042,"text":"而目前我們審計的報告我們一件 一架都還沒有交而且我們付出來的錢已經超過七成了那我們還是必須照常的付款那這個巨額的資金到美國去只是美方就是賺寶的利息動不動都是幾百億那當初預算編列是依據美方所提供的那個發價書LOA來去所訂的時程但是後來都沒有做到"},{"start":10708.522,"end":10736.312,"text":"那2019年說2023年會來結果現在也都沒有來嘛那我在這邊跟我先跟國人報告一下也跟部長報告一下一般買賣商購的那DCS它就好像你去買車嘛那車商說什麼時候要交沒交就是罰錢東西不好也要罰錢也要賠償但是呢我們交了2000多億卻拿不到一架戰鬥機還不能罰美國的錢我想這個就是軍購案嘛就是FMS嘛"},{"start":10737.132,"end":10765.695,"text":"軍購案好那軍購案的發架書裡面這LOA的發架書裡面有幾個霸王條款部長你跟我一樣都念法律一定非常的清楚我請大家仔細聽好第一個他沒有罰則第二個交貨期程是僅供參考第三死都要付錢第四個最後我們還是要保護美國最高利益內容很簡單請大家看一下我的那個PowerPoint上面寫得非常的清楚"},{"start":10767.41,"end":10795.708,"text":"FMS就是政府對政府所以裡面沒有預期罰款的問題再來交貨的期程這個只是預估值沒有任何強制第三時都要付錢就算美國武器一拖再拖連通知你都懶得通知你為什麼他一拖再拖你還是得付錢最後我們要保障美國所有的利益我們美國只能賺不能賠而且所有的風險台灣單這個就是目前的狀況嘛部長你有沒有認為我哪一句講錯"},{"start":10797.257,"end":10812.789,"text":"跟委員報告那個無論如何都得付錢這句話我想不盡正確我想我們上次已經有報告過了那你們付多少了 請問F16V付了百分之多少了請問F16V付了百分之多少"},{"start":10816.181,"end":10834.421,"text":"請問F16V負了百分之多少不好意思我的題目非常簡單請問F16V我們負了百分之多少了我們負到60%左右就停下來了好那是不是也是負了嘛那你要的回來嗎但是現在已經48家在組他在組的過程我們"},{"start":10835.242,"end":10847.356,"text":"就必須要付這些生產所需要的錢然後呢 都拿不到啦你大筆資金匯過去啦你按照原來合約期成付款錢就留在美國啦請問一下你要的回來嗎我講一句 要的回來嗎"},{"start":10850.657,"end":10869.691,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們已經說明了我們成立了專案辦公室然後也美方也盡力的在盡快的加速這樣剛剛站規師也提到了在線上生產的這個飛機的架數已經50架所以我想我們預期我們因為明年的年底最後到期嘛"},{"start":10870.231,"end":10885.47,"text":"那我想我們會盡快的在這一年當中報告部長我知道你在講什麼報告部長這個就好像部長您在十月的時候回答媒體的話說我們海昆號十一月交界有相當大的挑戰這就政客的話術嗎"},{"start":10886.872,"end":10912.654,"text":"根本不可能啊你到現在連前一次都沒有過了11月可能交件嗎那一樣你現在說我們2026總目標不變這個其實也是不可能嘛好就算今天美方真的2026一次全部給你大說話一次全給你請問一下我們的人員培訓呢我們的地勤呢我們的品質驗收呢難道就是隨隨便便一次全來嗎那"},{"start":10914.275,"end":10939.987,"text":"你不用擔心說我們國人我們這些國軍跟委員報告我們不會隨隨便便好所以啊因為你們說的是說2026總目標不變嘛對不對那我只是跟你說好就算總目標不變當然我們都理解馬上就2026啦馬上就2026了那你一次全部交給我們不可能嘛要全部我們現在要盡量的加快但是當然要全部能夠再交2026年底的交集這確實有相當大的挑戰"},{"start":10943.869,"end":10952.32,"text":"部長現在不是全部部全部的問題就算我剛講就算美方可以在明年一年全部交完但是全部交完還是有一些驗收的問題"},{"start":10953.928,"end":10980.737,"text":"出廠檢測品質的問題啊我們有沒有足夠的飛官跟地勤啊有沒有辦法同時驗收跟接收這66架這都是問題人才的部分空軍都有在準備那有關這個相關的測試的飛行相關所要進行的這些驗收當然都要嚴謹的來進行有相當大的挑戰其實這意思就一樣嘛其實就是政治人物的空曠那我剛剛在跟您報告"},{"start":10982.858,"end":11002.151,"text":"錢會滯留美方這是審計部的報告這不是我講的您現在如果覺得不會那您去告審計部好了不然就請你的同仁準備好審計部的報告給你看為什麼審計部要告訴我騙我說目前錢就是滯留美方那如果這樣的話跟你說的就不一樣好那再來就是"},{"start":11004.221,"end":11022.891,"text":"2026雖然F16V您的說法總目標不變但是我也說即便總目標不變一次66架梭哈給你但是我們有非常多行政上面根本不可能達到的就像您當時說11月海昆號交建有相當大的挑戰一樣大家聽完都在笑好那我再跟"},{"start":11024.397,"end":11049.271,"text":"部長說你們2019年已經如期交貨F16V已經被騙了一次人才兩失那你我怎麼知道跟你怎麼知道1.25兆這個軍購會準時當年2019年的部長也是說沒有問題啊美方都已經講好其成了但是做不到就做不到而且最慘的是軍購做不到還沒辦法處罰他跟商購不一樣那請問一下那我怎麼能夠相信1.25兆的這個軍購會準時呢"},{"start":11052.153,"end":11075.526,"text":"更重要的是您說1.25兆的採購我們已經取得美方的報價美方也已經提供交運的期程但是我剛剛也說了這個交運的期程這個只是最佳交運時間這只是一個建議的他沒有做到也沒有關係所以這就是讓我們很擔心會不會又變成一個大錢坑另外"},{"start":11076.647,"end":11105.524,"text":"依照軍購的程序我們是要先送需求信函給美方嘛LOR給美方之後美方才會回復報價那既然說你說有報價那這程序上代表百分之百就是走軍購的那依照2500億又沒有罰則也沒有違約罰則交易期程 交貨期程只是供參考那這個就是我們將來會擔心的所以我希望這個禮拜能不能夠給我們一個資料就你們可以揭露的部分"},{"start":11106.284,"end":11123.329,"text":"不要再扣我們紅帽子什麼要我要拿資料給誰不用就你們可以揭露合法可以揭露不影響櫃部運作可以揭露的情況下給我資料就我剛剛提的那些我們質疑的地方啦不要只是口頭保證就是"},{"start":11125.539,"end":11148.91,"text":"違約交不了貨怎麼辦第二個如果說就是delay沒有違約金怎麼辦再來交不了貨怎麼辦因為這在FC6V上面都發生那如果我們1.25兆這個東西也發生了你們打算怎麼處理這是一個很重要的點再來我也想要請問一個很重要的問題就是一個程序上面的問題你們可以看一下PPT"},{"start":11150.512,"end":11157.935,"text":"今年10月21號我們剛剛王定宇委員他去美國參加國防工業會議的時候就已經有提到這個為期7年1.3兆的這個軍事採購"},{"start":11162.66,"end":11190.91,"text":"結果呢 卓榮泰在面對院會的時候他卻 他在許曉清問他 他卻一無所知啊那以我對於編列預算的了解是國防部先編列預算行政院核定以後才算數那為什麼會發現民進黨的立委都已經知道了結果行政院院長竟然不知道那這個是變成是美方寫好報價單直接交給我們代表帶回來啊那我們國防部再直接抄一抄 然後寫特別條例"},{"start":11191.77,"end":11220.402,"text":"這不就是幾乎就是要台灣來硬吞下去嗎所以這個程序有問題嘛院長本來應該是國防部編行政院核定結果現在是立委在外面都公布了就院長說我還不知道所以這個期程上面就給國人無限的遐想到底鬼出在什麼地方還是我們王定委員就會算命就會預測未來是這樣子嗎所以這一整個都非常的奇怪到底我們的執政黨在玩什麼東西"},{"start":11221.502,"end":11243.229,"text":"他要把台灣掏空到什麼地步去我就覺得很莫名其妙而且一兆兩千五百億你一兩百億都跟國人斤斤計較一兆兩千五百億卻這麼的隨便像剛剛王定宇也講什麼財化法普發還有人講普發一萬年金健保等等說在窮台在掏空台灣在配合解放軍"},{"start":11244.529,"end":11255.241,"text":"這些錢不是掏空台灣這些錢也不是在野黨拿走這些錢是交給全體人民或交給地方政府是用在人民身上但是軍購"},{"start":11256.658,"end":11279.613,"text":"是把錢拿去美國就算你說拿去買武器是為了國人但是買了武器交不了貨那我怎麼對國人交代所以我們當立法委員我必須要監督這東西我再說一次我尊敬您部長您是我們法律大前輩我完全支持我國的國防我絕對支持國人國防一定非常的重要我們要買適當的武器能交貨的武器再來"},{"start":11280.933,"end":11308.911,"text":"部長第四條你們這次特別條例草案的第四條裡面七大項我也看到幾個很恐怖的點部長您是法律人我們也很清楚第六款第四條第六款強化作戰持續量能相關設備這句話空泛到不行法律人如果可以寫出這樣子的條款那等於是完全授權你愛怎麼做就怎麼做啦我買垃圾袋也可以說是要持續作戰強化作戰的持續的量能啊所以"},{"start":11309.998,"end":11335.891,"text":"為什麼會有一個這麼空泛的條款呢然後你貼上一個任何東西你只要美國掏出來叫我們買你就貼一個標籤說這就是強化作戰持續量能所需要的就我們就必須全部買單所以這就是我第一個質疑的點為什麼第六款有這麼空泛的條文第二個第七款台美共同研發及採購合作但是呢我在這一款裡面完全看不到"},{"start":11337.216,"end":11350.216,"text":"任何技術移轉的比例台灣本地產值的門檻價格審議機制沒有一個說得清楚那請問一下這樣子的櫃買條款如果真的過了以後"},{"start":11351.431,"end":11379.983,"text":"美國跟台灣說要共同研發共同採購結果呢技術最後留在誰手上專利留在誰手上台灣是不是又變成了軍火商的提款機這是我對於第七款一個很嚴重的我覺得有很大的問題的地方你雖然講得很好聽但是呢你又沒有講要怎麼合作的方式甚至智慧財產權留在誰那裡怎麼在哪裡生產產值的門檻什麼都沒有這是我一個很大的問題"},{"start":11382.745,"end":11402.291,"text":"還有我跟你講因為我不知道說這次這麼大軍公案是不是美國威脅加徵關稅如果是就勇敢說出來告訴國人說我們不得不吞下否則這真的就很像是台灣版的馬關條約這就是這樣不好意思再給我一點點時間抱歉"},{"start":11403.311,"end":11423.131,"text":"我跟你講台灣我們所有人民絕對支持國防中華民國絕對支持國防但是反對當凱子更不想變成詐欺案的被害人我想我們支持的就是這個點還有拜託不要把行政院長當傀儡連立法委員都知道的事情就行政院長竟然不知道其實這個還蠻離譜的還有一個"},{"start":11426.531,"end":11445.497,"text":"還有一個會發生債留子孫的問題因為你們這一次呢第五條特別條例你們第五條講的是說這個是可以規避公共債務法嘛對不對你這規避公共債務法等於我們是把未來這八年我們分裂在未來這八年裡面你會排擠掉原本國家的"},{"start":11446.533,"end":11470.76,"text":"的預算啊所以呢我們本來未來8年可以用在健保長照教育基礎公共建設我們全部都先借來花掉了那我想請問一下第一個部長這1兆2500億錢從哪裡來你要加稅還是要砍健保還是要砍長照還是要砍教育第二個錢要怎麼還請問你的常在計劃是什麼利息負擔多少還有"},{"start":11471.36,"end":11486.672,"text":"是不是還要繼續每年舉債有一些側翼啊很無腦在那邊說啊國防預算增加不會排擠社福因為兩個編列單位不一樣問題是錢就這麼大錢不會天上掉下來怎麼可能不排擠說不排擠都騙人請問您常在計劃怎麼做錢從哪裡來一定借來的嘛特別預算你要去借錢不是我們現有的預算請問常在計劃在哪裡"},{"start":11500.722,"end":11508.57,"text":"現在是讓我回答了嗎是 請說因為你剛剛講了一大串我想用了很多的形容詞"},{"start":11511.242,"end":11532.916,"text":"常在計劃在哪裡用了很多形容詞我想我特別幾個點跟您報告一下可能您有所誤解部長我的問題是常在計劃在哪裡時間的關係我簡要回答一下可以嗎您已經講了十幾秒還沒有講到我想第一個您說這個一兆兩千五百億全部都是軍購這不是事實"},{"start":11533.897,"end":11538.6,"text":"沒有問題沒有問題但是是特別預算嘛不是您剛剛講說全部是軍購這不是事實因為您要讓我您講了那麼久你要來兜圈子齁我沒有要來跟您兜圈子那我先回答您最後一個問題我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎好簡單回答我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎"},{"start":11560.575,"end":11584.289,"text":"有關特別條例的經費上限依照2518年那來源為已用以前年度稅積剩餘或舉債方式舉借債務方式來辦理施行期間會依財政紀律法來管控舉債的規模我們也會依行政院的指導來嚴守財政紀律這就是官話嘛還是沒有還是我還是聽不到這就是官話一切依照規定那你如果要講這個"},{"start":11585.27,"end":11590.314,"text":"都是官話我也沒有話講而且您對一照2500億的一個是條例等到後面要編預算每一筆預算還要再送大院來主筆的來審議剛剛那樣的講法顯然是誤解了條例的意義跟後面編預算的意義今天就是還沒有討論到這邊所以我才會拿出來問嘛如果今天立法院都已經審了都過了那還有什麼好問的還有最後講一個啦"},{"start":11613.951,"end":11627.524,"text":"您今天買了一大堆武器對於軍人的薪水斤斤計較武器買了滿滿的沒有人用我不知道理由是什麼第二個你也不是買到最新式的武器比如說F16V是4.5代"},{"start":11630.011,"end":11658.723,"text":"你買的是舊的武器那難道你要把台灣當博物館嗎因為沒有人操作沒有人願意喜歡當兵這一次總援合直接少了9000人那等於是少了兩個旅遊戰鬥部隊其實這都是我們憂心的我不是找國防部麻煩我想您對總援合少掉多少可能沒有看我們的報告我們的縣議叫去年成長了2000多人我想您講的很多都不是事實好不好那有必要的話再用書面補充謝謝接下來"},{"start":11662.074,"end":11663.716,"text":"請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝召委我們有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11681.141,"end":11693.489,"text":"部長午安 辛苦了部長我想先就最近我們台海周邊的軍事活動相關的事實事件來和部長您做討論近期外媒報導"},{"start":11697.871,"end":11721.043,"text":"紐西蘭海軍最大的軍艦在11月5號航行通過我們台灣海峽這也是從9月以來再次有紐西蘭的海軍通過台海而在航行的過程當中據稱中國的艦艇和飛機持續在做監控甚至有中國的戰機來進行所謂的模擬攻擊"},{"start":11722.283,"end":11751.183,"text":"我們中關過去這幾年不管是歐洲還是印太地區的友好國家派遣軍艦在我們台灣海峽執行所謂的航行自由的活動當然都是依照國際法所保障的航行自由權利不過當今天有美國以外的國家派遣軍艦通過台灣海峽的時候通常共軍都會派出海空軍來應對尤其在今年以來"},{"start":11751.903,"end":11752.008,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":11752.489,"end":11781.379,"text":"共軍所採取的反應似乎有更加強烈的跡象比如從2月以來包括日本 加拿大 澳洲還有英國的軍艦通過台海共軍除了增加附近空域的軍事活動外還會實施聯合戰備警巡除了展現反制的手段以外也是對台海管轄權的法律戰我想就此來請教部長"},{"start":11782.74,"end":11800.642,"text":"從這次紐西蘭海軍的這個案例來看是否代表中國對於這個歐洲或是印太國家派軍艦通過台灣海峽的這個應對措施有升級的這個趨勢那這其中有沒有擦槍走火的風險我方應該如何來因應"},{"start":11802.692,"end":11828.664,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說我們支持各國來經過台灣海峽從事自由航行這樣子的一個自由航行權有關遭到中國的跟監等等的這些挑釁的行為目前觀察來看還不具有擦槍走火的風險"},{"start":11830.529,"end":11857.104,"text":"我們國安部會利用聯合勤政的手段都有在全程的來掌握跟應處這樣子一切都還在我們掌握之中 是是好 那近期還有這個台海有事說的這個論調中國和日本之間的關係略顯這個緊繃那在上個月底日本防衛大臣小泉晉次郎也到這個西南諸島進行視察"},{"start":11858.945,"end":11881.622,"text":"那之後日本防衛省就公布11月24日有中國的無人機穿越台灣和與那國島之間的空域那日方也派出戰鬥機緊急起飛前往應對那我想請教部長在這一次的事件當中我們國防部是否也掌握這架無人機的來源和意圖而我方的應處作為是什麼"},{"start":11882.362,"end":11902.377,"text":"那另外中國如果持續派出無人機在台灣和日本之間的這個空域來進行侵擾的話我們會有什麼樣的因應原則中國的無人機他這個日本這邊公布的大概就是11月24日那他出海之後是沿著我們的航空識別區跟"},{"start":11903.306,"end":11917.427,"text":"日本的航空識別區就飛到西太平洋從事一個長航的任務日本的飛機一般例行性它都會在就這個"},{"start":11918.889,"end":11938.698,"text":"像您提到宇納國島這個空域它會來起飛警戒應出那我們都有全程的掌握部長那我們掌握這架無人機會是空軍的無人機還是其他的無人機系統它是一個KVB808的無人機"},{"start":11943.186,"end":11950.432,"text":"與那國島和台灣距離只有110公里日本自衛隊從2016年進駐了160人的沿岸監視隊後來也進駐了電戰部隊近日小泉防衛大臣也證實了自衛隊已經規劃在這裡要部署034的防空飛彈"},{"start":11964.625,"end":11992.758,"text":"那外媒也報導美軍要在這裡建立這個前進加油點使得這個第一島鏈成型的更嚴密的這個防衛整個這個串聯我想請教部長日本和美國在包含與那國島的這個西南諸島加強相關的軍事部署跟整備的相關規劃當中我們是否有角色在其中扮演那尤其未來若是其他的這個防空飛彈部署"},{"start":11994.32,"end":12001.191,"text":"與我方的防禦範圍有所重疊對於我們台灣支盾的規劃會不會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":12003.533,"end":12032.088,"text":"我想這樣就是說美國跟日本會加強在日本的西南諸島的軍事部署那你這邊有提到這個與那國島的這個防空飛彈的部署這個都是為因應中國的基建頻繁的洗腦浮穿第一島鏈的這樣的威脅所以他跟我們要致力以這個嚇阻或者以實力來維持區域和平穩定的這個目標是一致的"},{"start":12032.788,"end":12058.289,"text":"那至於我們的要建構的台灣之盾是以我們現有的防空系統作為一個基礎那我們強調整個偵測一直到這個決策還有打擊整個系統來做整合然後來遂行一個多層次跟高效率的一個攔截那我想我們是為了加強強化我們的自我防衛能力而設而來建制"},{"start":12059.744,"end":12073.625,"text":"部長我剛剛問的就是在這個第一島鏈形成的過程裡面我們台灣有沒有角色的扮演我想戰略上來看的話美國跟日本都要強化他們的一個"},{"start":12075.712,"end":12092.49,"text":"這個軍事的威懾所以在西南諸島所做的軍事部署也是基於這樣的道理那所以協同嚇阻我想是大家共同的一個理念那台灣在第一島鏈的前緣那更要強化自我防衛的能力這個是必然的"},{"start":12093.03,"end":12121.279,"text":"也就是說我們之所以要提出這樣的特別預算還有我們要提高我們的國防預算在GDP的占比都是基於我們的防衛作戰的需求而不是單純的只是說為增加而增加這個都是基於需求而來那我想強化我們的防衛能力就能夠強化嚇阻那日本跟美國也一起加入從事這樣的協同嚇阻那就能夠維護區域的和平穩定也會是台海的和平穩定的現狀"},{"start":12122.742,"end":12145.844,"text":"好 那由於我們台灣跟日本之間並沒有所謂的這個制度性的同盟關係那在軍事上也缺乏共同演訓的機會遇到緊急狀況的時候是否能夠有順暢的一個溝通或是協作的機制來整合區域內盟友的一個資源那我想還是就這個部分請教部長台灣和與那國島的距離"},{"start":12147.465,"end":12172.063,"text":"相當的近那我們是否應該和日方來建立一個常態性對話或是協調的一個良善的機制來因應中國的揮袋侵擾或是有任何的緊急處理的方式我們國防部已經有掌握當中我們跟有盟國家都會建立一個情報交流跟情質交換的機制那麼"},{"start":12174.252,"end":12202.883,"text":"也共同來掌握台海周邊以及這個執行任何突發狀況的一個處置作為我想這個我們平時就就已經在建制就有建制好那日本和台灣這個長期的友好關係未來我相信在這個西南諸島強化各式的這個軍事整備對於台海的和平穩定會帶來正面的效應那也持續請我們國防部能夠對於這個部分的這個方面來加強"},{"start":12203.863,"end":12221.037,"text":"那另外我想就另外一個議題想請教部長在今年十月底監察院公布了一份調查報告當中提到在國防二法實施之後政府希望能夠引進一定比例的這個文職人員來參與國防事務以提升我們國防部決策的品質並且能夠達成"},{"start":12223.539,"end":12235.878,"text":"文人領軍的一個政策目標又提到在這個民主先進的國家任用國防文官的比例都超過七成以上我國的這個標準相較其他國家已經明顯的偏低"},{"start":12237.625,"end":12255.004,"text":"造成我們文官政策難以落實那在報告當中也提出幾項造成國防部文職缺額率偏高的一個癥結點包括這個升遷管道有限薪資誘因不足另外還有一個是文官心態的一個保守等等"},{"start":12255.925,"end":12275.574,"text":"而且監委認為在國防部對於三分之一的這個文職條款規定採取了不同的計算方式可能有意來掩飾長期以來任用這個文職未達法定比例的一個情形更讓我們這個條文形同虛設所以要求國防部進行檢討"},{"start":12276.434,"end":12298.584,"text":"那在此我想對於這個監委所提出的這些質疑我想請教部長我們文職人員任用的這個比例究竟是多少那應該怎麼樣來落實三分之一的這個文職條款的規定又有關這個文職人員的不足的這個部分"},{"start":12301.007,"end":12316.083,"text":"光部現在已經全面性的在檢討有關這些文職人員在我們國軍內部特別是光部本部以及光部本部以下的這個一屬是"},{"start":12317.624,"end":12344.924,"text":"一署四局一署四局的這些部分我想我們會來一個想家的檢討那確實國安部的這個文職人員他們進來也要經過一些安全查核然後另外他也要對部裡面的組織文化要能夠適應才能夠長留久用這些但是這些都"},{"start":12347.95,"end":12376.221,"text":"不能夠說我們就因此就不需要來進行檢討所以我想我們要如何讓這些所有的應該願意來到國防部服務的這些文職人員能夠能夠理解國防部的整個的對他這個整個人生涯規劃的一個一個一個保障還有我想還有他的可能的一個"},{"start":12379.315,"end":12394.769,"text":"就是說他對整個整個他的專業的一個要求等等的我覺得這個部分我們會做一個全面性的一個檢討好那最後一個問題我想在上週五我們也看到總統公佈了新任這個軍政副部長人選是我們"},{"start":12395.57,"end":12424.471,"text":"徐思簡博士來擔任那我們也知道徐副部長是學者出身那多年來在外交和國安的領域深耕也多次參與台美之間的重要這個對話會議那顧部長您在先前擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也和您配合多年我想請教部長那對於徐副部長來到國防部有什麼期待那希望能夠借重他的長才來推進哪些政策那有沒有可能會主責對於"},{"start":12425.671,"end":12439.256,"text":"這個對美的軍購另外您也身為這個文人部長對於文人領軍的這項政策考量到的政策目標和實施的實際的這個情形認為有什麼優缺點又該如何來做檢討"},{"start":12442.274,"end":12470,"text":"簡要的回答三點第一點就是說軍政副部長即使是這個前任的這個伯副部長其實他也是以文職任用的只是說他們出身的背景可能會說伯副部長是過去是軍職出身的那現在的徐副部長是這個文職出身但我要講的第二點就是說"},{"start":12471.826,"end":12492.435,"text":"徐司檢副部長事實上在國安會他的歷練很多部分都在國防的相關事務上面因為國安就是包括兩岸外交 國防那其中國防是佔了非常大的一部分所以您剛剛也提到在台北的軍事交流的部分很多時候都是由"},{"start":12494.214,"end":12517.274,"text":"當時的徐副秘書長或者現在後來的徐諮詢委員然後現在要再擔任副部長他由他率隊去參與這樣子的一個台美的軍事交流所以事實上是他對國防的事務是很閒熟的第三點我要說明的就是說我想我們用不管他的是"},{"start":12518.636,"end":12547.706,"text":"過去有沒有擔任軍職或者是他在國安會有相關的國防事務的歷練我們都希望他是一個我們都依賴他的專業專長那我們會希望他能夠深入參與各項的國防改革計畫然後對國防事務我相信他現在在有一定的深刻的掌握情況之下上任之後一定會持續發揮他這個國際事業跟戰略的一個長才來協助我們各項這個落實各項國防施政的措施"},{"start":12548.206,"end":12562.694,"text":"好 謝謝部長因為法規上有納入很多優秀文職參與國防事務的期待我們也期待我們國防部能夠朝這個目標積極來研議對 我們會來努力好 以上謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請謝一鳳委員上台質詢"},{"start":12582.77,"end":12585.657,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請我們顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12595.493,"end":12621.992,"text":"部長早安我想請教一下就是美方希望我們國防預算的比例能夠佔GDP的比例能夠提高那這個部分是提高我們我國的防衛的能力那到底軍人的薪資算不算在國防預算裡面"},{"start":12622.941,"end":12639.548,"text":"是當然算在國防預算算在國防預算裡面是那所以我們現在希望國防部來對一般的就是說普遍的加薪以及現在你們國防部所推動的精準加緊"},{"start":12640.788,"end":12663.446,"text":"就是戰鬥部隊的加級這七項的加級的部分那其實都是整體性的來調高我們國軍的戰略的戰力那為什麼你們對於一般的國軍的加息不願意編列相關的預算"},{"start":12665.305,"end":12691.671,"text":"我想您提到的應該是指這個最近軍人待遇條例裡面的那個志願役加急的餘力調整為3萬塊這個部分那這個部分我想第一個說明就是說我們國防部隊與軍人待遇的調整一直是很重視的那我們主要就是會針對敵情的威脅防衛作戰需求跟勤務專業的特性跟繁重程度我們會"},{"start":12692.911,"end":12716.44,"text":"我們比較朝向是來持續檢討修訂各項的勤務佳績的支領對象種類跟發給的金額來做這樣子的一個整體的考量然後來維繫住我們整個各個各種不同部隊之間的這個它的這個邊線能夠維持住那所以我們認為"},{"start":12718.379,"end":12736.958,"text":"依照這樣子的一個說各個不同部隊裡面的可能是他的任務的繁重或者是他的一個專業的特性或者是他的艱困程度等等的或者危險程度等等我們來做一個整體的考量"},{"start":12737.754,"end":12757.628,"text":"我們朝這方面來做這樣子好 那你們都是在就是增加就是戰鬥部隊的勤務佳績應該不只我們會有各種不同的勤務佳績對 我知道那是不是會造成機程跟非戰鬥部隊的這個官兵相對的剝奪感呢"},{"start":12758.636,"end":12773.992,"text":"以及你認為這樣子會不會對於他們的士氣也造成了相關的影響呢那這樣子就不會提升戰力了那這對戰力會有整體性相對下降的影響"},{"start":12775.37,"end":12790.727,"text":"因為我們有一個沿西就是說戰鬥部隊的邊線比不夠高的情況之下我們第一步現在提升戰鬥部隊的一個加級不管是第一類的戰鬥部隊或第二類的戰鬥部隊"},{"start":12792.088,"end":12816.652,"text":"那先將這個屬於任務比較繁重比較艱困的戰鬥部隊加級先提高之後那我們其他的這些加級我們也都陸續的在檢討那所以您就會看到就是說我們的在報告裡面所提到的這個不管是六月或七月就會針對不同的加級也會來做調升"},{"start":12819.733,"end":12843.087,"text":"那現在有關您提到的這個戰鬥部隊這個基層跟就是非戰鬥部隊跟基層非戰鬥部隊的話那也要考慮他的很多方面比如說他的專業性他的技術性等等我們也會來持續的來檢討增加他的佳績"},{"start":12844.108,"end":12863.535,"text":"所以你們是部長你的意思是說對於非戰鬥部隊並不是不給予加級而是你們要增加一個就是整體性的評估戰力對於官兵有戰力的評估然後再給予加級嗎是這個意思嗎或者我這樣跟委員報告好這樣子好了"},{"start":12864.536,"end":12879.177,"text":"戰鬥部隊本身它就分成直接戰鬥的這個第一類型還有從事戰鬥支援任務的所以您講的非戰鬥部隊事實上在某種程度就涵蓋了很多是屬於戰鬥支援部隊的那現在就是說"},{"start":12880.999,"end":12905.793,"text":"我們現在如何把這個戰鬥部隊這個層級要拉高這可能是我們要去檢討因為過去戰鬥部隊的層級是限制在聯級以下但事實上現在以一個聯兵旅作為一個打擊部隊或者是一個戰鬥部隊來看的話那麼所有的聯兵旅以下事實上都合乎戰鬥部隊的定義所以我們要檢討的是如何將這個戰鬥部隊的這個"},{"start":12908.534,"end":12918.957,"text":"這個發放的這個對象的層級要檢討要來提升那這樣就等於包括所有直接要戰鬥或者支援戰鬥的這個部隊它所能夠涵蓋的範圍就整個會擴大那這樣子的話就會讓我們"},{"start":12926.491,"end":12945.937,"text":"這個需要提高這個變現比以及提高這個誘因的這個程度能夠像剛剛委員所講的精準的這個投放在我們需要增加的能力上面好那對於你們現在已經在調升的網路站的加級跟電真加級等高專業的技術加級"},{"start":12948.911,"end":12975.616,"text":"其實這個部分國防部怎麼確保跟民間的科技業你有同等級專業的薪資水平因為你知道現在不只是國防部的這個就是電資的相關的人員需要加薪那你知道民間的相關的這個部門需求也非常的緊那你怎麼樣子保持"},{"start":12978.886,"end":12987.938,"text":"這個確實不是一件非常容易的事情所以我們這一次在網路站加急的部分我們就將那個專家級的月資數額再調整1萬應該是到6萬所以"},{"start":12993.124,"end":13011.435,"text":"當然我們也知道沒有辦法完全的跟這個民間來做單純以薪資來講做一個競爭但是我想我們還是想辦法透過因為到國軍來有個好處就是我們對他的所有的培育他都不要花他"},{"start":13014.003,"end":13037.209,"text":"一個自己的錢然後都是由我們來支援那我們會有一個培育的計畫來讓他來那另外他隨著他的一個階級的調升他的薪水當然也會調升那再透過這樣子的所謂專家級精英級的可資領的人數的比例我們把它從15%提高到30%"},{"start":13038.869,"end":13058.555,"text":"然後像這樣子的一些誘因從人才的培育到給予他的家籍然後再透過不斷的一個階級他可能的一個被提升那我想國軍相對來講提供一個穩定的一個環境那同時也"},{"start":13060.856,"end":13074.026,"text":"也盡量的培育他成為一個高專人才我想透過這個方式來留住我們需要的這些那你認為現在透過相關的這樣子的待遇調整之後"},{"start":13075.747,"end":13102.194,"text":"說志願役人數超過2000人那請問這些新增的人力主要集中在什麼樣的軍種什麼樣的階級跟什麼樣種位那是否真的能夠有效的改善以及對於你剛才所說的像現在的網路站也好 電偵站也好你有沒有辦法真的能夠就是說留住你需要的人才"},{"start":13103.448,"end":13116.091,"text":"我想我們說的是志願役的縣員叫去年成長兩千多個人不是超過兩千多 而是說我們當然還是要持續的努力至於那個網路站的"},{"start":13116.926,"end":13136.756,"text":"跟委員報告那就針對網路站的部分要自從今年6月份開始這個調整之後那在這個從事這相關的人員的這個流行比率都有提升都有提升是不是是的好好謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來請鄭天才委員上台資訊"},{"start":13157.897,"end":13186.875,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有請部長請部長部長 是 政委我每一次在執行國防部都會強調精良的軍備要專精的國軍這是我一直在強調的部分我看這個國防預算"},{"start":13189.095,"end":13203.344,"text":"從2015年3308億 逐漸每年的調增尤其是這幾年 這幾年調增的非常非常的高2025年已經到7726億 明年9495億"},{"start":13209.458,"end":13235.535,"text":"當然還有賴總統已經宣布的行政院也已經將這個特別條例送來了也就是1.25兆這樣的一個國防的預算在這樣的一個情形之下志願役的士兵 使領的薪資待遇我們看這個二等兵"},{"start":13237.909,"end":13264.879,"text":"從這個一百一十四年四萬兩千多一等兵四萬四千多上等兵四萬五千多大家都知道軍人基本上都要在營區裡面不像一般的公教勞工每天可以回家隨時可以回家隨時可以請假"},{"start":13266.322,"end":13294.634,"text":"軍人不是這樣這差很多所以這個比較是很難比較的如果我們跟這個現在勞工的這個薪資2025年每人每月的經常性薪資四萬七千多都比這個志願役的軍人士兵來的勞工的平均薪資高很多"},{"start":13296.283,"end":13317.095,"text":"所以在這樣的情形之下今天國防部的報告一再強調的這是你們今天的報告已完成十項加解的增加第一加解"},{"start":13318.169,"end":13345.803,"text":"勤務加級 勤務加級包含戰鬥部隊加級 網路戰加級戰航管加級 電偵加級 三軍儀隊加級空降特戰加級 軍法加級從退伍金從退伍金的計算不包含加級不包含這些地域加級 勤務加級"},{"start":13347.782,"end":13374.261,"text":"志願役的士兵他跟勞工不一樣他可以做到65歲勞工志願役的士兵部長你知道嗎 志願役的士兵可以當幾年10年10年對不對他10年非得要離開不可除非他念了士官對不對當了士官他就要離開"},{"start":13377.304,"end":13403.927,"text":"而我們士官有限都有比例都有人數的限制規定所以志願役士兵是最基本最基礎最重要的戰力的部隊增加這些家籍對他退伍毫無幫助"},{"start":13405.29,"end":13431.059,"text":"有時候他退伍很難找工作 要做農 當勞工勞工要從最基層開始 從頭算所以這些都是需要去考量的部分所以我們在軍人待遇條例裡面雖然這一次的跟這個沒有關係但是我是要建議國防部"},{"start":13432.253,"end":13461.659,"text":"也可以也應該不是可以應該要提軍人待遇的條例的修正將相關的本縫最主要是本縫嘛能夠給提高有很多的這個軍人不見得有這些家籍啊但是他們一樣要退伍啊所以包括一樣士官軍官也是一樣"},{"start":13463.151,"end":13474.356,"text":"他們的這些退伍也只計算本縫這些第一家級勤務家級沒有包含在裡面部長你的意見如何"},{"start":13475.866,"end":13492.735,"text":"跟委員報第一個就是說您剛提到那個二兵的那個我們在報告裡面有提到就是說如果你以這個基本待遇來看包括本碰專業家族跟志願家族的話二兵現在來看就這三項的基本待遇是42,150塊"},{"start":13495.316,"end":13522.486,"text":"但是他通常會如果再加入戰鬥部隊的話所以我們這次就大幅的調高戰鬥部隊所以他如果加上戰鬥部隊他就會到達五萬四千一百五十塊我只是在說明就是說他一般像二兵或者是一兵或者上等兵等等他如果在戰鬥部隊他就會有戰鬥部隊的加急所以我們之所以會調高戰鬥部隊的加急也就在提高這方面的誘因"},{"start":13523.306,"end":13538.627,"text":"那自願一加級他就您剛提到的他不會算入退休的時候的部分所以調高自願一加級也是增加他的基本待遇但是就他的退休來看的話並不會"},{"start":13540.169,"end":13566.194,"text":"因為志願一家級的增加而提高他的退休的給予那退休的給予的部分剛剛您所提到主要在本碰的部分那本碰的部分因為是軍公教整個一體來考量所以他有一個整個軍公教的一個整體考量的問題所以就像軍公教加薪那軍人也加薪那本碰的部分也是軍公教一體來考量"},{"start":13567.655,"end":13593.838,"text":"這個重點 但是事實上應該分開來講公教 公教他 我剛一開始講了 他可以隨時每天回家還有加班 他有加班費對不對 他有很多相關的這些另外一種待遇或者是叫 稱為福利所以軍人"},{"start":13595.117,"end":13624.16,"text":"不一樣 真的不一樣除了增加 你已經增加了這些第一階級 前物階級之外更應該去增加它的本諷沒有 因為它的規定是另外一條法例並沒有跟公務人員的諷刑法跟教師的諷刑法是分開的 是另外一個法例"},{"start":13626.657,"end":13651.493,"text":"跟委員報告一下 如果您去看它那個我們現在均文通用的 它都會有一個文質的一個質等然後跟我們軍中的這個階級會有一個比序所以你如果我們這個植物是均文通用我們有時候會用文質 我們有時候會用均質所以在本碰上面來講 這個比序上面不可能有過大的一個差異"},{"start":13653.569,"end":13679.545,"text":"這個部長沒有什麼不可能要不要做而事實上像剛剛前衛委員在陳俊宇委員提到我們要增加文職人員的那我們就要這兩回事 文職跟武職的軍人當然你現在是一樣也不對啊所以這個部分是可以分開的就如同公務人員公務人員也有不同"},{"start":13680.838,"end":13696.265,"text":"所以這個部分技術人員跟公務人員的也不一樣在公務人員裡面一般的公務人員跟技術人員的也不一樣所以這個部分給我們國防部"},{"start":13697.428,"end":13722.492,"text":"尤其是部長這邊能夠把它列入一個很重要的一個課題我想我們會來跟行政執行溝通我只要說明就是說在國安二法實施之後現在很多的這個職務其實都是軍文通用的所以在考量這個軍文通用的情況之下這個本碰的調整其實是一個是一個必須要整體規劃的一個事項部長我一開始"},{"start":13728.719,"end":13754.266,"text":"韓國防的軍備軍購經費然後現在又送了這個新的軍購的經費所以更需要更多的國軍能夠投入這個很重要一定要是分開的好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":13763.748,"end":13766.853,"text":"主席好我們先讓部長喝口水來請顧部長請部長"},{"start":13776.88,"end":13796.392,"text":"是 李委員部長好 辛苦了賴總統在11月26號有召開一個守護民主台灣的國安行動方案然後特別提到說這個2027年中國以2027年為節點作為推進武統台灣的各項準備還有提醒就是說這個2027年可能是一個節點"},{"start":13797.873,"end":13824.796,"text":"然後呢這個其實2027年呢也不是賴總統他先講出來的那其實在這個2021年的時候當時候的這個美軍的印太司令部的司令戴維生他就提到說2020年的3月他說台灣是中國野心的一部分那這樣的威脅在未來的10年甚至6年就是2027年的時候就可能會顯現所以那時候大家就給這個戴維生"},{"start":13825.476,"end":13850.903,"text":"他所講這句話 稱之為戴維森的窗口接下來從2021年3月到2025年的3月 這幾年來包含印太司令 美軍的參謀首長聯席會議中央情報局 CIA等等都有提到說中國尋求在2027年就具備侵台的能力"},{"start":13852.523,"end":13873.279,"text":"做好了一個供台的一個準備因為2027年也是中國解放軍的建軍百年然後我們今年的這個漢光41號演習我們今年的漢光41號演習是不是也是這個以2027年中共可能犯台來做一個演習的一個演練"},{"start":13874.665,"end":13895.481,"text":"我們是以在2027年以前達成這個我們的各部隊的一個高戰備的能力作為目標那所以今年的這個漢光40號演習的確也是以2027年為這個中共揮帶的辛勞還有可能犯台的一個行動所做的一個準備嗎"},{"start":13896.935,"end":13917.59,"text":"我們在做各項的訓練操演的時候我們現在都是以2027年達到高戰備能力為目標這個意思就是說我們在面對任何的敵情威脅或接獲任何的命令的時候能夠在最短的時間內全面達到可以立即出動作戰的一個備戰狀態所以部長也是認為說2027年是一個節點就對了"},{"start":13925.219,"end":13942.741,"text":"我們作為一個準備要有準備的一個觀念我們要以2027年達到高戰備能力那所謂的高戰備能力是指高戰備能力就是剛剛講的就是各級部隊要依照這個敵情威脅或接或任何"},{"start":13943.459,"end":13964.031,"text":"的作戰命令的時候能夠在最短的時間內全面達到可立即出動作戰的一個備戰狀態那我們會透由這一個相關的立即備戰操演跟聯合作戰防禦操演等等各方面的一個實戰化的聯合作戰訓練來確保我們整個聯合作戰計畫可以周延可行那同時"},{"start":13965.066,"end":13979.502,"text":"也要結合我們相關籌貨的縣市裝備然後還有兵力結構調整然後達到一個快速形成集戰力的那我就請教部長那其實這一個函我們立法院剛剛通過了這個國土安全韌性"},{"start":13980.703,"end":14005.564,"text":"有國防部的預算 1151億之前還有兩項正在執行中的預算一個是新式戰機的採購一個是海空戰力提升的計畫採購這兩項的特別預算也都有提到 因為這兩項的特別預算在執行當中的戰機 海空戰力提升都是到明年結束 對不對"},{"start":14008.117,"end":14028.948,"text":"對 應該是都是到明年結束嘛因為都是到115年結束嘛金氏在金是109到115然後呢 海空戰力提升計畫是115到111到115所以明年 明年總共如果順利啦這個1.25兆的這個預算有過關的話明年有四項軍事特別預算在執行嘛 對不對"},{"start":14031.211,"end":14053.582,"text":"明年的話 至少有三樣的嘛如果這一次的特別預算這個也通過的話會有四個特別預算有四項嘛 對不對因為剛通過一下嘛 國土安全任性的嘛兩項在最前當中的嘛 對不對就是海控戰略還有先是這個戰機嘛然後還有一項是這個還不知道能不能過的就是1.25兆的 剛提出來"},{"start":14054.082,"end":14071.25,"text":"那我再請教一下部長因為其實大家也很關心就是說未來如果這個1.25招能夠過的話我們採購的武器要能夠及時到位嗎那我先問為什麼是編8年因為過去我們這個軍事特別預算大概都是編4到6年那為什麼這次是編到8年"},{"start":14074.996,"end":14100.848,"text":"這個我們考量有三個因素第一個是我們目前的敵情威脅的部分第二個部分是針對這個敵情威脅我們所需要在這個時間比較短的時間之內獲得的有哪些第三個部分是有一些針對中期性的防衛韌性的部分需要能量建構的部分我們大概也做一個統整所以在這個部分我們包含了不對稱戰力跟防衛韌性的兩個部分"},{"start":14101.748,"end":14125.822,"text":"我們整個規劃起來就是以8年為基對 那我的意思是說如果以2027年為一個節點的話那我們的這些不對稱的這些戰力的採購不是應該更早獲得嗎比如說在4年的時間就應該要獲得了不是拉到8年嗎鮑委員 針對2027的這個部分我們主要以整件不對稱戰力為主這個部分是滿足敵型威脅陡峰的這個需求"},{"start":14127.843,"end":14148.551,"text":"對 那我的意思是說你們也是拉長到8年對但是我們所要的這個不對稱的作戰的能力應該是未來這兩三年就應該要有了對不對應該是說2027年以前我們都是以執行中的一個大部分是以執行中的暗項來作為我們具備基本不對稱作戰能力的一個"},{"start":14150.932,"end":14173.432,"text":"希望在2027年之前就能夠形成我們現在已經透過公務預算還有剛剛您提到的兩個特別預算等等讓我們來具備這個基本的兩年的時間能夠買到這些我們所需要的不對稱作戰的武器嗎我們現在已經在執行中的包括用我們年度預算還有特別預算那我講的是"},{"start":14174.633,"end":14196.347,"text":"那現在下來的是更進一步的來去形成提高一個我們更多於巨子的這個完備我們多於巨的能力來整個再大幅提升這個我們整體的防衛作戰能力那所以應該是在前比如說3到4年應該是這些不對稱作戰武器的採購的高峰吧"},{"start":14198.513,"end":14223.447,"text":"應該是吧 因為不可能拉到八年去了不可能嘛 應該是為了這三四年的時間吧我們應該還要看我們整個籌貨的一個期程是剛剛提到的我們的需求 美軍能夠提供的應該是這樣去談吧還有自製的還有自製的那我再問一個 其實大家應該有關心的事情就是我們的F-16V的戰機"},{"start":14225.134,"end":14230.061,"text":"那因為現在已經12月了那因為他這個特別預算是到明年那請問一下部長那這66架的這個戰機何時能夠到台灣來"},{"start":14237.74,"end":14263.13,"text":"這有關係到未來的大家審特別預算的時候都會問到是 鮑委員這個F16的這個部分我們已經和美國政府在催促洛馬公司加速產製那後面當然要配合他整個測試進度的進行飛機組合應該渴望在明年完成所有機隊可是測試的部分為了確保他的安全我們目前還是採取比較審慎的態度去走"},{"start":14263.61,"end":14291.329,"text":"那這個部分包圍您可以看到我們其他公務預算的項目事實上都已經在趕上進度了包括海馬士M1A2T跟兩型的反戰車飛彈NASAMS等都已經回到正常的進度來交那我們相關未來的項目也會跟我們所要採購的方向包含商購軍購跟偽製的這個部分我們會確定它的產製期程能夠滿足我們的需求我們才來做那所以66架再接是"},{"start":14292.29,"end":14320.423,"text":"明年能夠順利交機嗎包委員我是空氣商務長跟您做一個簡單的報告這個前面的委員諮詢過的我們也都知道F16交機確實有非常嚴重的這個延宕但是我們從這個今年的會期開始也不斷的在催促也不斷的一直在加強事實上從上個會期的提報到現在我們的產線從50架已經進步到54架進度到54架還在持續的在增加當中所以說已經做到54架了嗎"},{"start":14321.784,"end":14349.076,"text":"進到場裡面開始組裝的有54架了我們在10月份的時候是50架那現在已經有開始進到場裡面去他一定是有一定的進度他才能再有一架新飛機進去所以說這個進度其實是一直在趕工那這個部分我們也跟美國政府提出非常嚴重的關切那美國政府也跟落馬還有我們包含跟落馬直接開會這個進度都一直在進行那包含了飛勢的部分那這個部分也提早到今這個月會開始來進行"},{"start":14350.837,"end":14375.962,"text":"主席我最後一個問題這個是剛剛媒體所寫的就是說針對中國目前制裁日本但是似乎沒有達到一個效果所以有可能國安單位的一個官員他來講就是說有可能是在12月13號南京大屠殺的國家攻擊日 中國他們會發動一個聯合利劍西的演習"},{"start":14377.263,"end":14400.744,"text":"這個請問一下部長有聽到類似的這一個說法嗎我想國防部立場還是會根據相關的這些預警徵狗我們會來充分的掌握然後相關的這些可能的動態所以我們還是以預警相關的徵狗來作為判斷的基礎那這個禮拜有任何比較不尋常的一些徵狗嗎我想這個部分可能我們如果委員要了解我們另外再找"},{"start":14401.344,"end":14423.406,"text":"跟委員做說明所以是有可能中國會在齊虎南下的情況之下會藉機發揮嗎我們不會做任何的一個臆測我們只會依據相關的預警政府來做判斷那有做好相關的準備嗎我們都會根據預警相關政府來做好這個相關的因應的準備好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":14425.824,"end":14442.895,"text":"謝謝就我們對美軍購的部分因為之前美方好像有提到過去其實可能要必須要百分之百達到的標準他甚至為了要因應要交貨他可能百分之八十的那個標準可能就要給我們這個部分我們要請國防部也要特別"},{"start":14446.337,"end":14465.65,"text":"就這個部分因為我們不能隨便說啊像你們M1A2結果來的時候連那個戰場管理都沒有你還要用對講機那這樣的風險到底要怎麼樣去因應我覺得這個部分我們也要相對要去掌握謝謝那接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":14476.379,"end":14505.025,"text":"請顧部長顧部長捍衛中華民國我們一起努力但是也很務實的來看我們最近幾個特別預算也好或說我們國防部的相關預算的運用所以剛剛其實本席我想我跟我們執政黨的委員或是全國的民眾其實也很關心就是說如果現在總統提出了1.25兆的特別預算的軍購費用的話"},{"start":14505.987,"end":14516.273,"text":"你雖然是八年的一個執行期但是針對可能中共的武力犯台或者是他的一個準備的部分我們有多少比例是那兩三年裡面就要先建構完畢"},{"start":14518.961,"end":14538.352,"text":"您講的是指下來的特別預算嗎是的下來特別預算我想具體的項目等到條例通過以後我們編列預算的時候但你們應該會有一個規劃跟期程嗎因為如果說現在如同總統那天講雖然他到時候自己臉書又改口可是他一開始在記者會講的是2027年中共有犯台"},{"start":14539.383,"end":14565.806,"text":"的時間點後來再改口說的準備但不管是的準備或是犯台那重點在於是2027年是總統已經明確的透過他的嘴以及透過臉書上就寫出來這個時間點嘛那我們想請教一下如果說現在我們在2025年年底討論的這個特別預算那我們未來你拉8年的一個時間那我們自己合理的分配會是怎麼樣有沒有辦法把錢花在倒口上"},{"start":14566.85,"end":14585.316,"text":"我想我們以8年的時間作為籌購當然主要就是因為因應我們能夠不管是軍購或者是商購或者是偽製的這個期程而來訂定那我們也在之前已經說明就是說我們就我們能夠籌獲的這個項目我們來維持我們的高戰備以2027年作為一個目標"},{"start":14590.297,"end":14619.196,"text":"那之後我們相關的這些特別條例所需要的這些預算然後來進行相關的這些武器的籌貨的這個期程我想我們還要等到條例通過以後編列的這個預算項目部長你還是沒有回答本市問題不過之後我們針對特別預算也一定會有專案報告那時候我們再請教好不好那第二個問題大家都知道現在有6000多億我們的軍售是我們付了錢但是武器還沒有來那我們想請教如果未來特別預算"},{"start":14620.077,"end":14642.528,"text":"的部分執行我們有沒有防避機制或是說我們能夠保障怎麼樣能夠花了錢之後拿到武器這部分我們比較具體的規劃我們比較具體的規劃保障我們自己我們都如果說要加強台灣的國防能力要加強中華民國的捍衛自主能力我們都支持但重點是怎麼樣把錢花在刀口上能夠確保"},{"start":14644.188,"end":14671.082,"text":"兩點跟委員報告第一個卡托這個六千六百多億這個數字是錯的我們上次已經說過說明說明一下我們到底要怎麼樣保障我們能夠拿到我們的花了錢拿到我們的武器第二點的部分我們會依據武器交運的期程來管制我們付款的進度同時也會催促美方必須如期如質的把我們要的所以未來我們有可能變成是貨到付款"},{"start":14672.688,"end":14699.619,"text":"可以嗎我們現在做的就是在產線裡面他做生產的部分我們做一個支付但是如果說他有產生鹽蛋的部分我們會跟美方來做支付然後等到他趕上進度之後我們後續再進行付款但跟現在不是一樣嗎我只是說現在的做法就已經有造成我們沒有辦法在時間內F16戰機到目前為止沒有交任何一架是事實嘛"},{"start":14700.546,"end":14723.669,"text":"是不是他已經開始在進行測試了沒有錯 沒有交付那原本報告的時候是什麼時候要交付其實已經延宕了不是嗎那本席現在只要問還有很多問題我只要請直接明白告知這一次如果說特別預算採購跟之前有沒有什麼不一樣的地方還是我們到目前為止還沒有辦法有沒有"},{"start":14726.153,"end":14755.345,"text":"不一樣的付款或說不一樣我們可以更保障我們自己能夠準確武器交貨的時間包委員我們這一次的特別預算因為涵蓋了商購 偽製跟軍購所以付款的方式當然會有相當大的不同至於軍購的這個那保障的部分呢保障的部分偽製跟商購的部分是按照既有政府查購法的規範軍購的部分我們還是會持續要求美方去所以軍購沒有辦法但是偽製商購是還有討論的空間因為它跟軍購本來就不一樣嘛"},{"start":14755.785,"end":14758.399,"text":"好來我第三個問題喔那個部長我先"},{"start":14760.32,"end":14788.593,"text":"這個是這兩天這個國防部的回應這媒體的報導我讓您知道一下就說國防部講說台灣之盾是要建立重重的這個攔截網導入AI輔助整合決策跟感知系統有效的整體防空系統那未來均列為我們商籌採購選商籌購的潛在表底換言之台灣之盾的部分有大部分方向可能都會採取商購是不是這樣子"},{"start":14791.357,"end":14798.228,"text":"那個台灣之盾的這個部分包含了過去現在還有未來規劃的這些相關的項目有商購有軍購其實這個項目裡面大部分是屬於軍購跟我們偽製的部分"},{"start":14804.798,"end":14824.94,"text":"那這三個部分包含ShooterSensor跟戰場管理的系統的這個部分我們都會按照我們的需求針對市場上面只要符合作戰需求的部分納入我們選購的項目那這個部分要做一個非常詳細的評估因為尤其是系統整合段如果沒有辦法有效的去整合我們各式系統的話"},{"start":14826.241,"end":14848.793,"text":"包含從高層的反彈防空到低層的反無人機它的效果就會降低這個是我們未來努力的一個方向所以這才是本席所擔心 沒有錯這就是本席看到新聞報導是這樣寫因為他還講說是國防部著30日表示然後你說有這些相關均列為我未來選商籌購的潛在標的所以本席才會"},{"start":14849.873,"end":14878.45,"text":"才會提出這個質疑也想要請教就教我們現在的規劃方向因為你剛剛一直提到兩個部分嘛本席先問是說1.25兆跟之前的特別預算有什麼不同你講說1.25兆裡面有商購有偽製跟軍售所以說商購跟偽製的部分有相對比較有談判的空間這是你剛剛回答的第二本席引用媒體的報導媒體報導也是國防部的回應講說台灣之盾有"},{"start":14879.17,"end":14901.952,"text":"AI等相關系統是有選商籌購那我們要問的是說到底我們現在主要的方向因為花錢買相關是一回事但是能不能有效運用是一回事那還有到底1.25兆有多少比例是商購有多少比例是偽製有多少比例是軍售現在能不能回答"},{"start":14902.894,"end":14922.47,"text":"包委員這個部分我們會在預算書表進入大院審查的時候向對外說明好所以說條例通過之後預算書表進來之後會有一個比較明白的一個我們會有專報然後我們也會對外說明但是本時要問的是那個部長我再請教因為最後的時間大家現在有都看到我們現在對美關稅談判"},{"start":14924.472,"end":14942.53,"text":"之前四月的時候提出美國川普總統提出關稅當時我們就講說那對美因為主要美國總統川普他提出關稅是因為逆差的狀況那我們那時候也講是說我們購買那麼大量的軍事武器算不算不算 軍售是不算可是商購是算的"},{"start":14943.211,"end":14960.312,"text":"那所以說在1.25兆裡面我們現在如果說有部分是維持所謂的商購的話那有沒有納入這一次的這個對美關稅的談判小組裡面增加籌碼去跟美國談判我想對美的談判不是我主責的是 但是我知道但是我說我們提出這個部分就"},{"start":14962.532,"end":14978.385,"text":"談判小組有沒有掌握這一塊是能夠讓美國知道在談判的因為到目前為止關稅還沒有出來啊但我們能夠增加籌碼我們要增加籌碼啊如果說總統已經都宣誓說有1.25兆那可是我們現在都不知道1.25兆到底內容是什麼"},{"start":14979.948,"end":14994.66,"text":"談判小組他們有沒有至少你內部溝通開會討論的時候你們會比較掌握方向吧那有沒有去增加我們談判的籌碼讓美國知道是說我們在這個部分其實也有部分的商用採購是應該要列入談判籌碼的"},{"start":14995.58,"end":15024.629,"text":"我想經濟跟安全的議題是雙軌的所以我想我們就這個關於武器的這些採購的方式不管是軍購還是商售還是自主生產的委制我想我們都要等到條例通過以後才會提出具體的一個規劃那豆色再跟委員報告那關稅的談判我想沒有應該是沒有將我們現在要還沒有條例還沒有通過的這個預算項目把它納入談判的籌碼裡面"},{"start":15026.86,"end":15039.679,"text":"這難道不是一個我們中華民國政府整體對美國談判的一個通盤條件嗎我想我們的或是我們通盤的一個如果說因為部長你可以理解本席的隱憂"},{"start":15041.312,"end":15063.257,"text":"國防部做國防部的事情國防部提出相關特別預算但對於全體2350萬的全國人民來講但現在要看到的是對美的關稅的部分以及特別預算到底有沒有把錢花在刀口上這都是環環相扣的啊那如果說你們現在沒有把這一個部分把它納入讓談判小組更有底氣的話那這樣子不就是變成是多頭馬車各做各的事情"},{"start":15064.137,"end":15087.05,"text":"而且本席剛剛已經開宗明義強調了軍售不算我知道所以我也沒有講說軍售的部分但你們既然已經提出1.25兆裡面有軍售有偽製有商購那就代表是說有商購的部分其實是我們可以讓美國政府知道我們也有這樣的規劃不是嗎我想我們還是等條例通過以後才能夠有一個確定的規劃方向因為所以目前看起來是沒有"},{"start":15088.997,"end":15104.507,"text":"您的意思說跟關稅談判嗎是 我想關稅談判有關稅談判主責的一個單位所以現在是脫鉤的不只是確定一下我並不清楚這個關稅的談判他們的談判的內容好 了解 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":15117.199,"end":15118.688,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請部長請部長"},{"start":15133.099,"end":15149.926,"text":"總統宣示我國將要編列高達新台幣1.25兆的軍購特別預算過去這幾個月本席一直坊間聽到媒體聽到巨額的預算的傳言"},{"start":15150.706,"end":15175.846,"text":"那我在本席在國防委員會呢也跟您探討過同時也在總質詢也跟院長談過那院長跟您呢都沒有具體的一個回答所以本席要請教既然總統先生已經正式的對外說明那時間數字依據到底是不是成如現在所公佈的也就是"},{"start":15176.306,"end":15201.704,"text":"要1.25兆的軍購特別預算請說明1.25兆就是按照條例的話就是屬於我們整個預算的一個上限那具體的預算的編制要在不能夠超過這個預算上限的情況之下來具體來編列好 所以這個是確實也就是當時您回答本席說這個條例送到行政院去審議"},{"start":15202.785,"end":15218.13,"text":"那卓院長呢在總諮詢的時候回答本席說他知道這個是但是不了解內容那現在我們終於也知道了也就是1.25兆是你們預定的上限的這個預算數是不是"},{"start":15219.899,"end":15240.885,"text":"所以本席要請教也就是總統先生是在投書給華盛頓郵報但是我們覺得說目前為止總統先生已經對外宣告所以這個確定是屬實但是到目前為止我們國人針對於新戰略"},{"start":15242.685,"end":15257.2,"text":"那也沒有兵力跟戰術的一個配套我們國人都不清楚在這樣情況之下總統投書外媒是為了什麼呢有人說是為了內宣 是不是如此啊"},{"start":15258.561,"end":15285.712,"text":"我想總統投訴外媒也是在尋求說國際上對我們依照我們防衛作戰的需求提高這個國防預算然後讓跟國際做一個戰略溝通讓國際能夠了解我們有自我防衛的決心有捍衛我們民主價值的一個決心是 讓國際了解當然要做但是讓國人了解應該是更重要吧這一些的預算都是人民的納稅錢"},{"start":15287.085,"end":15309.522,"text":"所以在不清楚兵力到底是怎麼樣通通都不知道所以總統台會特別有召開記者會有做一個說明那我們也做一個說明那我這邊還是要說明就是我們現在在條例的一個階段那現在提出一個經費的上限然後我們也有說明採購的一些項目那具體的這個經費的編列要等到大院能夠通過這個條例哇 那個事大條喔"},{"start":15312.113,"end":15317.658,"text":"因為你現在也不知那條例也還在審但是總統已經對外說"},{"start":15320.55,"end":15347.883,"text":"那人民到底總統就是說明我們這個條例提出來經費的我們要提出來的整個的所需要的經費上限就新台幣一兆2500億所以部長這是史上最高的軍購特別預算那不管過去藍綠都執政的時候沒有提過這麼高這是史上也等於是過去國防部四個特別預算的一個總和所以本期要再請教"},{"start":15348.963,"end":15375.342,"text":"如果我們現在所說的你們說是這1.25兆全數要舉債嗎按照這個規定相關的這個預算條例預算條例來看就是會有以稅計歷年的以前年度稅計剩餘然後還有這個舉債這個兩個管道那這可能會讓我們政府舉債突破天際"},{"start":15377.58,"end":15400.705,"text":"這有可能喔所以本席再請教我們這個條例裡面它有說明就是說它還是要符合財政紀律法14條第二項規定意旨就是舉債比例要有一定的一個控管的機制所以請教部長整個預算跟特別預算在條例的適應期間的舉債額度的合計數不能夠超過該期間總預算跟特別預算稅數總額合計數的15%部長"},{"start":15404.435,"end":15412.76,"text":"過去被延遲交貨的採購案都還沒有解決那我們現在衝突的繼續採購會不會把人民當當大頭 當攀納我想我們這個整個的預算的籌編都是根據我們的整體防衛作戰的需求考量敵情的威脅來編列"},{"start":15431.508,"end":15454.194,"text":"國家的安全當然全民會支持 本席也支持但是 本席要再次強調不能讓人民當攀囊 當體管制所以本席要請教在野黨提出了普發現金修正財務法在當時都是被罵的臭頭但是政府 要謝謝政府終於聽到明末普發現金現在在執行中"},{"start":15455.094,"end":15475.632,"text":"但是我們看到為了軍人加薪預算一年只有300億這個充實國防當然是要為軍人加薪啊部長 你同意為軍人加薪嗎依法 立法院三讀通過了依法 編列 你會編列嗎 你同意嗎"},{"start":15477.566,"end":15501.137,"text":"國防部的一貫的立場就是要不斷的去整體調整這個軍人的待遇結構所以我們一直在說明我們會依照一直持續來檢討修訂各項的勤務佳績的資歷對象種類跟法律請針對本席的提問依法 台灣是一個民主法治國家立法院三讀通過一年只有300億"},{"start":15503.218,"end":15513.171,"text":"跟我們現在所提的軍購軍購再怎麼樣沒有人執行這怎麼辦所以本席再一次請教您身為國防部長啊那您會同意軍人加薪編列這300億嗎依法編列"},{"start":15522.092,"end":15546.619,"text":"我想就這個您講的 提到的這個軍人待遇條例直接規範這個資源一加幾 三萬塊這個部分這個在宣導的時候 默併制效果非常好行政院說明已經依照憲政的精神提出釋憲那基於行政議題的原則你身為國防部長 本席要請教 部長你是軍人的大家長你同不同意依法編列這三百億"},{"start":15547.318,"end":15551.702,"text":"我們會持續檢討修訂各項的請問佳績我們認為要從整個軍人待遇的結構來檢討整個我們認為所需要編列的這個相關的這些預算來達到我們提高我們相關國防人力戰力的一個需求的一個精確的目標我們會朝這個方向一直持續來努力你不回答本席"},{"start":15574.741,"end":15578.57,"text":"本席不願意解讀說你不願意編但是"},{"start":15579.895,"end":15604.234,"text":"我們希望你身為部長依法行政是無必要做的那同時我們也知道你要怎麼樣讓國軍能夠安心他才有最強的戰鬥力為國家來奮來奮鬥來奉獻所以本期再請教一句依法三讀通過的一年將近如果跟軍購的預算來比他是他是"},{"start":15608.177,"end":15637.177,"text":"維護其為所以請教再請教一次部長你會同意依法編列一年將近只有300億讓國軍能夠安心的這筆預算嗎法制化我的回答還是兩點第一點我們會持續的檢討軍人待遇的這個各項家籍的調升基於整體的規劃那基於行政第二點基於行政一體原則本部尊重行政院對於國家施政各項預算的分配本部尊重行政院所以本席最後"},{"start":15637.997,"end":15656.642,"text":"要告訴部長部長一定要為國軍爭取權益不要讓行政院違法不變違法不變所以本席要請教總統先生中國大陸以2027年台灣這個"},{"start":15658.84,"end":15675.134,"text":"武統台灣為目標那我們發覺這個貼文有所改變了它改為2027年完成武統台灣的準備為目標所以本席要請教在這樣的字眼是以總統先生"},{"start":15676.816,"end":15698.513,"text":"來對外來指出在臉書上面所以本席要請教這個甚至可能會影響到各項外國人要來台灣投資國內的軍心是不是能夠安定所以本席要請教因為會發這樣的臉書的字眼把時間點都定下來"},{"start":15699.494,"end":15722.606,"text":"那請教是不是有收集到相關的情資所以總統才會這麼樣的來對外宣稱呢我想兩點第一點我們國軍還是以達到這個2027年才達到高戰備能力作為一個目標第二點有關共軍的這個動態我們都會嚴密監控再來觀察那就各項的這個共軍的這個情況我們"},{"start":15727.208,"end":15746.212,"text":"透過聯合情監的手段也透過跟友盟溝通的多項管道我們會持續對共軍各項的徵喉來進行全面的掌控所以請教目前我們所提出不管是條例等這一些的軍事採購跟軍力的部署"},{"start":15749.053,"end":15774.29,"text":"都是以這樣子的前提2027年的目標來做這個因應嗎是不是如此我們2027年完成高發戰備能力但是我們現在提出來的這個特別條例包括了軍購包括了商購包括了委制案我們都是以我們能夠建立更進一步的多域拒絕能力來強化我們的防衛作戰的能力為目標強化作戰為目標"},{"start":15779.413,"end":15800.263,"text":"但是如果以總統的高位直接點名中共武力犯台的時間你認為這樣適當嗎我想剛剛你也提到了這個我想總統的意思就是要我們這個做好相關的準備我們也以2027年達成高戰備能力作為一個目標謝謝接下來"},{"start":15807.937,"end":15810.059,"text":"請伍麗華委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長"},{"start":15831.03,"end":15852.235,"text":"是 委員好部長好今天的專報我們看到國防部是針對軍人薪資待遇現行的做法跟未來的調整規劃來做一個報告那實際上去年賴總統上任以來呢我們也聽到了這個消息那也提出了五項加急的調整方案"},{"start":15852.975,"end":15871.913,"text":"那在4月1號呢也開始生效那我是想跟部長就教就是我們從現在的軍隊的邊線比還有志願役的人數節節下降逐年下降我們可以知道說真的這個是為了要解決國軍的人才慌啊"},{"start":15872.634,"end":15892.607,"text":"那我們也知道說現在不分官科官兵從一兵到上將大概這樣調整之後也大概整體平均也都增加了一萬多的薪水那我只是想先請教一下部長您覺得軍官跟士官目前都很缺那哪個比較缺"},{"start":15896.58,"end":15913.912,"text":"軍官跟士官我想應該根據部隊的不同有不同的一個邊線比沒有辦法直接這樣子來說吧如果說如果你總體的邊線比來比的話那當然還是軍官的邊線比會比較高一點總體啦"},{"start":15915.773,"end":15939.181,"text":"但是每個部隊應該也都有不同好 跟我們的認知差不多啦那最主要是說因為我作為一個原住民我們原住民投入國軍的比例相當的高所以我們自己的親友身邊的朋友其實軍人非常的多那也經常聊天可以知道他們的想法那我以我們原住民來講我聽到的"},{"start":15939.841,"end":15959.381,"text":"他們呢其實比較不喜歡去當軍官讀軍校軍官的預備因為要輪調他們比較喜歡的是士官因為呢可以常駐那除了離家近那有的不能離家近他們也可以舉家搬遷那孩子的一個就業啊"},{"start":15960.181,"end":15988.574,"text":"就學其實對他們來講他們比較能夠照顧家庭可是我們看軍官他的招募管道非常的多元除了正期班也有專業軍官班常備軍官班預備軍官班那甚至引進美國的這些年有一個叫ROTC可是我們反觀士官他就是二專班還有預備士官班那為什麼我要特別提到這個因為我們看到這個ROTC這些年"},{"start":15989.474,"end":16003.29,"text":"他其實我們看到他的這個計劃招募的人員跟他報名的跟他錄取的感覺上好像高錄取率那他的退訓呢也是高退訓率"},{"start":16004.491,"end":16019.16,"text":"所以立法院的法治局其實在過去也曾經做過一個預警就是提到說這個ROTC的機制恐怕有待通盤檢討那我在這邊想請教一下部長有檢討嗎 檢討出有什麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":16024.006,"end":16035.261,"text":"我想ROTC它主要是招募民間的大學在招募的過程當中我們有一個"},{"start":16038.43,"end":16061.028,"text":"就是說招募的成效 招募應該說招募進來之後那麼他會有一個適應的一個問題那我想這個部分我們可能還要在這個確實要通寒的一個檢討說這個退訓高的一個原因"},{"start":16062.829,"end":16091.109,"text":"最重要當然就是說我們剛開始應該還是在廣招這個人才嘛那在這個期間當中他民間大學他也許他的選擇性會比較高所以他就會有可以選擇但是我們認為這個管道還是很重要我們還是要持續來溫習謝謝部長的回應其實不外乎幾個原因啦當然我們都知道"},{"start":16091.829,"end":16117.45,"text":"有時候是因為志趣不合他選擇離開有時候實在是因為他可能能力不及所以被迫離開不管是什麼原因甚至是招募的時候招募人員可能為了要能夠看到數字所以也許他適合陸戰的跑到海軍然後發現自己不適合其實原因很多這個部分真的是希望你們能夠通盤檢討但是我還是想要回到"},{"start":16120.692,"end":16135.349,"text":"就是比起軍官我們很多人更想要擔任士官是因為他的誘因因為很多人他想要他可能就不選擇升學了他希望可以趕快賺錢他也不想多花時間讀大學而且呢"},{"start":16136.07,"end":16162.661,"text":"士官比較不用輪調他可以選擇做到退休做一輩子但是他的培育的管道卻比軍官少很多那實際上我們一個連來講假設我們就以100人的左右的連來講好了可能軍官需要五位那士官需要三四十位所以其實士官的需求量是蠻好的那我看到國防部"},{"start":16163.141,"end":16179.038,"text":"你們有在10月份的時候寫到一個精進士官制度那立法院的法治局在109年的時候他也有一個延期精進士官的制度所以呢我其實這個地方來是想要見請部長既然我們都有"},{"start":16179.598,"end":16205.896,"text":"就是學美國這種ROTC的一個預備軍官的做法我希望士官的招募也能夠有類似的管道提升我們士官招募的成效為什麼我這樣講我跟部長說我們原住民就讀大專院校去年你看看一般生全體國民第一名大概是喜歡電機電子資訊企業等等原住民競技運動非常多"},{"start":16209.438,"end":16232.13,"text":"那我現在就是要提到我們很多的退役的軍官士官他們在聊天的時候有提到因為他們有一些轉職去國高中去教柔道啊 技籍啊他們都告訴我們說其實那些從小讀體育班的這些運動員他們其實比軍人還棒他們就只差什麼"},{"start":16236.004,"end":16240.748,"text":"沒有戰技訓練但是他們各方面體能啊他們的所有的那個都比我們的一般軍人還要棒更重要的是服從性很高因為他們從小就是在球隊啊或者是體育班他們對教練的服從度非常的高所以我想先請教一下"},{"start":16256.721,"end":16280.442,"text":"就是我們覺得不應該浪費這些運動員特別是原住民的運動員部長你是不是認同如果這些運動員原住民的體育生因為95%都會退場沒有辦法每個人都成為國手沒有辦法成為職棒明星所以如果他們能夠加入國軍成為一個優秀的集戰力部長您覺得如何"},{"start":16281.637,"end":16302.587,"text":"我想首先第一點就是ROTC它是就招生為軍官這個部分應該是有一個法源的依據就士官的部分的話我們就沒有法源就可能要做一個法源上面的一個探討那至於有關您認為這個原住民的體育生我想我們可以來檢討"},{"start":16304.448,"end":16331.635,"text":"包委員陸軍參謀長因為先前我也在陸軍官校擔任過校長包委員連議次長我簡單的就兩個面向向您報告第一個ROTC因為他是一個四年制的學士大學教育可是在現行的士官招考他只要大專畢業所以如果把他ROTC去設計還有士官的話其實是增加了當然是提升了素質可是是增加了士官就任的一個門檻因為時間的關係我直接說明"},{"start":16333.515,"end":16345.02,"text":"事實上我們現在入軍官專校這個所謂常備役都有運動科學的科系是那所以這方面也有相當多優秀的原住民來報考這是一個管道向您報告謝謝校長參謀長我們的原住民族教育法第24條其實在108年就有正式入法有給他法源"},{"start":16356.545,"end":16376.768,"text":"就是可以呢去開設原專班在專科以上學校開設原專班那截至目前113年度呢全國已經有26校41個系所開設那我去調查了一下目前全台的二專有12所那實際上這些二專"},{"start":16377.649,"end":16401.14,"text":"他就可以來開設士官的一個原專班那我覺得這個部分是不用去煩惱那至於課程設計我自己是覺得啦他如果能夠在他的課程設計裡面可能60%或70%教戰技教他一些領導的一些技能課程那甚至是利用這兩年"},{"start":16402.12,"end":16422.681,"text":"去取得一些證照像急救的 初級防護救生員 汽車駕照 體能訓練員等等利用這兩年去完成這樣他們是運動員的底子我覺得他們對於我們的國軍來講那真的是太棒了更重要的是文化在地國家的認同"},{"start":16423.382,"end":16442.034,"text":"非常的高然後運動的人才成為國軍的集戰力那強化他的戰力跟他的穩定的一個留任所以他未來不論是運動軍事的雙證照他退役之後的一個轉職等等我認為這個對國軍來講真的是太好了所以請教一下部長"},{"start":16442.734,"end":16460.539,"text":"您對於這樣一個類似不要講ROTC我不是講ROTC不是大學那能不能夠來做這樣的一個教育部也能配合法規都能配合那我只是問部長您覺得我們應不應該把這一些運動員拉進到我們的國軍裡面"},{"start":16463.789,"end":16487.619,"text":"根據剛剛委員的質詢內容我們下去以後我們來檢視一下看看這樣子你剛剛提到的是原住民的相關的法規如果您同意兩週內到辦公室我們來討論可以嗎或者你們兩週內提供書面規劃報告我請他們先跟到委員那邊去做一個溝通謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":16491.048,"end":16513.156,"text":"接下來請林黛華林黛華林黛華委員不在請王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在請鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請賴士寶賴士寶賴士寶委員不在請林益君林益君林益君委員不在請蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘委員不在請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":16527.734,"end":16530.656,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 謝謝請郭部長是 又爾部長 請教一下現在政府有提一個依照2500億的特別預算供購案那接下來還會再提別的嗎最近還會再提別的嗎您說特別預算嗎"},{"start":16551.491,"end":16571.751,"text":"會不會因為我記得不久前才提了一個特別預算裡面還1100億也是跟國防有關嘛然後那時候裡面我的感覺啦好像是不知道是為了達到那個金額所以就灌水啊裡面有買什麼那個投影機啊買五萬塊錢的椅子啊買那個120塊錢的水啊就把它灌到1100億啊"},{"start":16573.493,"end":16595.849,"text":"那現在又一兆兩千五百億他會不會沒多這樣 灌水獎不是 那為什麼特別預算要買投影機這是另外一個題目啦我真是好奇的因為現在大家是聚焦在一兆兩千五百億嘛那會不會通過以後沒多久又來一個幾千億或一兩兆的特別預算是有可能嗎目前沒有規劃目前沒有規劃 但是有可能"},{"start":16596.588,"end":16624.686,"text":"沒有規劃沒有規劃就是沒有規劃沒有規劃沒有規劃在這一次的特別預算以外還要再另提不是 之後啦就國防部之後啦就現在沒有嘛那不排除嘛現在沒有沒有是不是就沒有規劃那你們一照2500億他的那個決定程序是什麼啊我非常好奇就為什麼行政院長不知道但是特定民進黨立委會先知道是他那個特定的立委跟國防部特別好還是他居中有什麼角色"},{"start":16625.498,"end":16643.372,"text":"我想第一個委員如何執行這個我們並不清楚第二個就是有關行政院不是你們講的不是那這個這種事情是可以比總統先提早宣布嗎部長等一下我還沒有問你問題你剛剛有問我所以我要回答行政院的部分行政院的部分"},{"start":16644.312,"end":16668.907,"text":"行政院院長的部分我想他在回答的時候我有在場他的意思就是說明這個條例正在行政院的審議當中他本人還沒有看到這個只是我們先送條例到行政院的審議由政務委員再做一個相關部會跨部會的一個協調所以他還沒看到因為他最後還沒有審議完成現在當然已經經過審議完成之後送到院長院長也召開這個院會通過了"},{"start":16672.088,"end":16699.654,"text":"我覺得這個當然是一個很大的一筆錢所以大家當然會檢驗說這個錢用的用途然後有沒有亂用還有就是有一些錢債的部分我們之前也都編了很多國防預算特別預算譬如說我問海昆號當然我不是想要問那個毛或水密門但我知道說它裡面好像有一個系統的問題先確定一個資訊我們在國防部在2019年6年前那時候花了36億"},{"start":16701.636,"end":16729.488,"text":"買了一台就是大午建建構了一台大午建 對吧有這個事吧有 是那大午建它被監察院審計部糾正認為說測試的工序不符規範特別是有一個整合式的載台管理系統不符程序然後至今有74項缺失到目前為止都沒有改正有這件事情嗎報告委員有的有 是那這個大午建準備怎麼處理"},{"start":16730.216,"end":16752.999,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告那它因為裝備的一個貨裝裝件之後它的軟體測試需要一點時間所以它當初就一個合宜的檢驗次序做了一個調整對 但是它現在系統有沒有缺失現在的測試都正常 沒有問題現在測試完全正常是好 那請問一下這個大五件的系統廠商是不是跟海昆號原型件廠商是同一家"},{"start":16755.79,"end":16775.967,"text":"跟委員報這個詳細這個商情我們不在這邊透露但是它的系統跟操作運作是分開來做一個測試所以海昆號在系統的測試方面有沒有問題現在目前都已經逐步把IPMS都已經完成到我們各項各階段測試以前現在都是符合所以它的系統是完全都沒問題的"},{"start":16776.898,"end":16801.752,"text":"對 現在逐步在做這個邁向它測試前的一個整備每次的這個測試我們都會做一些安全評估它現在目前是沒問題所以海昆號現在系統沒有問題是好 那另外再請教一下因為有關於海昆號之前是黃曙光 前司令在推動那後來唐華嘛 唐華現在也走了請問一下海軍現在人力上接得起來嗎"},{"start":16802.701,"end":16829.424,"text":"跟委員報告 那我想從黃志偉辭召集人之後那海軍現在就負責整個的專案管理那會配合的台船跟我們專案團隊會複起這個整個在網部督管下他有一個編組會持續按部就班來推動後續的一個這個測試跟交件的一個任務所以你們現在有信心海昆號到底什麼時候可以交件因為一直在跳票到底什麼時候可以交件"},{"start":16829.929,"end":16854.492,"text":"報告委員 我們建造階段是準時的但是就是在測試的時候需要一點時間當然 沒有人這樣分的啦現在人家問交件不會管說你建造測試報告委員 還這樣說明就是說我們的建造的階段是符合他的規定沒關係 沒關係 我就問一個從這個期限嘛 之前是有訂11月底嘛那今天新月已經跳票了那下一次 總是有訂一個短期目標嘛到什麼時候我們會逐段來做什麼時候"},{"start":16856.594,"end":16880.433,"text":"沒有 不要扯這些好不好因為我們時間有限部長 因為之前是講11月底啦那現在跳票了嘛所以現在大概新的目標是什麼時候可以交檢我們已經在說明在安全跟品質確保的前提之下我們逐步完成那現在服務行完成之後我們還就是要進行這一個潛水簽署我知道啦這個程序大家都已經都很清楚了因為海昆號大家都了解"},{"start":16881.313,"end":16909.019,"text":"程序到底是怎麼完成哪些程序可以交接我是問時間點以前都敢講現在為什麼就不敢講了我們那個時間點11月底是依照合約的推展現在我們根據相關的測試你合約當初在訂的時候也會有一個預估測試的順利那測試進程順利部長如果說連一個目標都不敢講的話代表說你們也沒信心"},{"start":16909.929,"end":16938.237,"text":"因為你之前在訂合約為什麼敢訂目標因為你們有個期程你認為說按部就班可以完成所以你會訂個11月底那現在你們感覺就沒有信心了你們也不覺得你們可以解決到可能很難解決問題所以你現在連講都不敢講沒有 我們現在認為沒有一些那請問一下明年中有可能明年中有可能交件嗎我們測試還是要逐步我當然知道我當然知道我沒有趕你我只是問一個目標值所以明年中有可能交件嗎"},{"start":16939.381,"end":16953.04,"text":"我想我們還是會持續的按階段來就像F16V一樣那時候也是說什麼時間應該給我們幾架後來一直往後延但是不管是往後延怎麼樣也是有一個短期目標現在海昆號是連短期目標都沒有"},{"start":16954.919,"end":16968.679,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在已經今天是12月1號那我們復航過了我們現在下一個階段就是要準備做潛航那當我們在達到這個潛航的這個運作跟測試之後我們才會比較精準的一個時間開跟委員報告"},{"start":16970.961,"end":16984.632,"text":"所以潛航是什麼時候要完成潛航我們目前開始就在做潛航的前程對 大概什麼時候要完成因為這個目前還在做整個的整理跟潛航的整備那我們整備完之後你們今天回答都好空洞感覺都沒有做任何準備耶"},{"start":16985.453,"end":17010.271,"text":"你明明就知道說這件事情是大家很關注的而且在11月底已經跳票那今天到立法院我相信很多人會問這個問題結果你來你都完全沒有做任何準備就一直不斷的重複那個程序但是對於期程你完全講不出來抱歉我們上禮才剛完成兩次扶航對啊那所以那你總是我們現在就在做下一個潛航的準備對下一個潛航大概什麼時候嘛然後什麼時候會交接我不覺得這個會那麼難回答欸"},{"start":17012.082,"end":17030.761,"text":"我不覺得那麼 如果說你們是一個負責任的單位的話這有那麼難回答嗎我們就是等到這個相關的潛水潛艇規劃執行試試是牛年馬月嗎還是什麼時候 為什麼講不出來我們要按照這個測試的結果才能當然啊 那你總是要有一個目標啊否則的話就盡量拖就好了啊"},{"start":17031.383,"end":17043.031,"text":"我們沒有會盡量拖我們當然要盡快的按照這個不是啦 我們相關的這個節點然後來盡快的來答那時間點為什麼會講不出來如果說你都按部就班的話總是有時間點啊為什麼講不出來我們還是會依照相關的你就是一直不要再跳針了啦所以現在沒有信心嘛"},{"start":17052.95,"end":17060.958,"text":"沒有信心是不是我們有信心會完成沒有信心有信心會完成但不知道是何時啦結點來逐步的來進行好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":17066.209,"end":17089.523,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林義軍委員林黛華委員邱志偉委員王宏威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有"},{"start":17090.163,"end":17096.987,"text":"約定期限者從其鎖定之前因為我們在之前質詢的時候有提到服裝供應站他由開口契約變成一個保障比例的這個部分我們有要求陸軍國防部針對這個因為陸海空軍都有"},{"start":17108.092,"end":17134.931,"text":"那針對這個部分為什麼從開口契約變成比例的保證這個部分的轉折或者他的合理性我們有要求要針對合約的內容去做檢討那我們到現在都還沒有收到相關的一個書面的報告資料那由誰決定的他的合理性他除了這個以外還有其他合約內容的合理性一併在兩週內提出好不好那另外還有剛剛有"},{"start":17137.253,"end":17146.437,"text":"委員有提到的時候我們就加擠的部分好像有另外跟行政院提出比如說新府人員我們就有特別幫他提出來那除了新府人員以外有沒有其他的對象是有被提出特別給行政院的"},{"start":17154.6,"end":17157.823,"text":"也請一併提出提供相關的資料因為我們今天在就這個議題討論的時候我們都提到我們的敵情威脅抖聲那預算在暴增的的編列上面不管是特別預算也好或者我們的公務預算也好其實都增加我們看到所有的"},{"start":17177.398,"end":17193.077,"text":"包括與會的官員其實不管是對美軍對美軍的軍購或者對廠商或者就預算的部分都有各套的說辭可是我們一直安排這樣的一個"},{"start":17195.478,"end":17205.562,"text":"議題其實主要就是他最重要的是人今天如果所有的我們的軍事官兵他們可以在加擠上面因為牽動到本份本縫他可能要牽涉的問題會比較大所以就這個加擠的部分其實他不是沒有分別而是在這個"},{"start":17215.305,"end":17219.208,"text":"敵情陡升的情況之下你預算增加這麼多我們事實上應該對於軍人他的薪資福利是不是也應該要一併的調整他等到全部都公平以後如果認為我們的戰鬥或艱苦的或專業的可能需要再增加我們可以再予以增加我們就這個議題主要是希望國防部去考量的是這個部分我們也希望國防部就"},{"start":17243.947,"end":17265.375,"text":"軍人的福利的部分是站在國防部的立場跟行政院據理力爭而不是配合行政院去做這樣子我覺得對軍人可能也會是一種傷害所以就這個部分我們還是請部長還有我們國防部可以就這個部分再去做全面性的檢討那今天的會議到此結束 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另外一對台灣整體經濟跟整個產業還有國安風險的一個評估"},{"start":183.382,"end":209.03,"text":"是有一個評估啦就是說他這樣的投資到底會對我們的影響是怎麼樣但是我們就是說為什麼要求廠商都要投資一定要國內的有相對投資好那我問一下你講到這個點你剛剛也特別回應一件事情就是說台積電承諾到美國去投資1650億的時候他也會相應的在台灣擴大投資你剛剛是這麼回應對不對超過這個金額"},{"start":210.53,"end":230.116,"text":"超過這個金額我想請教一下我們台積電到美國去投資預計要分幾年投資完他早沒有壓時間不過他大概是應該是兩年或兩年多一個廠這樣子的速度所以預計大概會幾年的時候把這堆筆承諾投資完"},{"start":236.317,"end":252.718,"text":"如果啦 如果需求還是持續強烈的話那它會持續地蓋嘛平均兩年蓋一個廠的話那它會蓋六個廠嘛 差不多所以你說要十幾年才會投資完這1650億美元是 是是喔 OK 好在戰場的速度情況之下 對"},{"start":253.419,"end":268.482,"text":"但是在台灣的速度就很快因為台灣的蓋廠速度非常非常快好 我這邊要特別講一下因為按照台積電法說會的資料的時候今年台積電在台灣的一個投資金額大概420億美元在台灣的投資那麼表示說台積電在台灣的投資佔整個台灣2024年明目GDP7960億美元大概要佔5%多"},{"start":283.245,"end":302.014,"text":"這個金額其實非常的龐大所以台積電對於整個台灣的一個經濟成長肯定是具有非常帶動龍頭的一個效果部長這沒有問題吧OK那我們也看到一個情況就是說現在整個竹科中科南科他的一個"},{"start":303.535,"end":328.994,"text":"半导体的一个产业机体电路的一个产值的时候整体来说占了79.99%将近八成台湾这个部分所以你看台积电对整个台湾的整个整体经济的带动有多大的一个影响所以我这边的时候要特别提到一个事情就是说之前美国商务部长卢特尼克他特别提到说我们高阶制程要跟"},{"start":329.795,"end":354.77,"text":"台灣跟美國五五分這件事情的時候我們經濟部這邊有沒有掌控到一些相關的訊息如果台灣的產能跟美國的產能要一樣高階製程五五分那是不可能的從現在的投資速度就可以看得出來落差越差越大所以說我這邊我要特別提到就整個台積電"},{"start":356.511,"end":378.704,"text":"的高階製程占它全球的一個市占率到92%而且台積電高階製程占它台積電整體營收的74%所以我們認為政府一定有責任要把台積電這邊在台灣這邊的鞏固更好更明確這沒有問題啦OK那我最後我想請教一下那個楊代表"},{"start":380.1,"end":399.792,"text":"就是最近喔最近那個有一個路透社有一個新聞說台美正在洽談培訓美國高科技人才的協議有沒有這件事情我想剛剛那個葉主委已經表明了我們沒有談到這一點也沒有這個協議所以路透社這個新聞是假訊息"},{"start":401.11,"end":413.381,"text":"那是他自己的報導我們沒有談這個你們沒有談這個訊息可是路透社報導的狀態所以你這邊覺得說路透社這個新聞是假訊息對不對報導不真實不是假訊息是什麼"},{"start":414.777,"end":441.542,"text":"還是說因為我發現我們的政府很多談判的一個資料都落後在整個媒體之外包括我們那時候20%的那個疊加的部分我們政府承認的速度也在媒體之後很多事情都是後來媒體報導之後我們後來證明媒體講的好像有這麼一回事那麼我想了解就是我們對於美國要求我們培訓美國高科技人這個協議沒有在談這件事情"},{"start":442.162,"end":460.364,"text":"是的沒有沒有談這件事情OK那我為什麼特別講這個狀態因為剛剛部長這邊有提到說就是很多台積電的工程師過去然後後來也會回來可是我這邊要特別講到一個情況是很多情況人才如果過去之後是回不來的所以"},{"start":462.006,"end":483.077,"text":"代表這邊如果說很明確跟我們講說路透社這個新聞是假訊息因為我們根本沒有在談這件事情那我再把這邊因為這個是路透社的一個英文版的原文他很清楚的這邊提到他說川普他希望說一些外籍勞工能夠扮演更積極的角色這邊的外籍勞工指的是台灣的勞工那如果說"},{"start":484.741,"end":511.603,"text":"代表覺得說這樣子的一個訊息是不真實的訊息的時候那我們是不是要做一個公開的一個澄清針對路透社這樣的新聞做一個澄清代表報告委員其實這邊報導最後他也引用到我們企業自己的內部訓練所以我覺得我們不去幫這個路透社他做任何的解釋但是我們有澄清這個不是在我們談判的條件之一OK"},{"start":512.27,"end":532.362,"text":"那因為說在整個談判過程當中我們看到很多情況就政府的公開資料一直都在整個媒體之後所以我們也希望就是所有的一個部分剛剛有委員提到說現在已經台美已經進到換聞的一個階段有到這個階段嗎代表"},{"start":533.709,"end":561.688,"text":"我们进到最后的谈判阶段但是所有的底线要确定之后才能对外到换文的阶段了吗是说相关的条件在换文不是叫换文是在交换文件表示这些承诺就条件在交换就对了还不是正式的一个文本在交换对不对不是有关相关技术的议题有一些条件我们要澄清他也要了解在交换这些文件"},{"start":562.335,"end":580.031,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那我們希望整個台美的談判的時候能夠可以公開的部分盡量讓老百姓知道至少要讓國會知道然後我覺得不要有很多的訊息像路透社這個新聞出來之後的時候其實讓整個科學園區很多的產業"},{"start":581.272,"end":594.8,"text":"他們很擔心他們擔心台積電如果很多人到美國去幫美國培訓人才的時候那台積電會吸引其他台灣其他相關公司的人往台積電流動那台積電就會變成一個像美國書寫人才的一個供應站"},{"start":598.402,"end":615.017,"text":"那整個台灣的整個高科技的人才圈又會產生一個大地震所以我們希望這樣的事情不要發生然後工部長剛剛提到說我們對於整個半導體產業到美國去對整個台灣產業經濟國安的這種評估的時候之後可不可以本席一個很完整的資料謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af795960db1329912fbb28663f7a8bd1180b07b1c5d8e9378773eca6ea80bfd1def5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:56:29 - 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謝謝主席給龔部長喝一口水好 我們請楊代表 龔部長還有我們國發會的葉主委好 我們請三位 謝謝各位早安謝委員好"},{"start":31.889,"end":53.359,"text":"我們卓院長他已經證實了台美目前在交換文件的這個階段了那我們知道國人都在意的是我們有沒有比日本韓國更好的條件那日本韓國他們分別都已經承諾投資5500億跟3500億那台灣到底投資多少"},{"start":58.976,"end":87.265,"text":"是有什么具体的数字可以跟国人报告一下吗杨代表报告委员我想日本跟韩国跟我们的情形不一样我们的投资模式是依照我们的经济发展产业结构跟业者的需求所定出来的至于金额的部分因为还在议定当中也不便细节对外宣布所以是不是要把我们科学园区"},{"start":88.445,"end":103.725,"text":"整個在美國再複製一個是這個概念嗎那如果這樣子的話除了台積電有多少的科學園區的廠商也要共同到美國去投資"},{"start":105.253,"end":126.9,"text":"報告委員 我們是說我們的內科學園區的經驗跟美國來交換意見協助我們的業者在當地能夠設立產業園區或是產業記錄不是把我們的科學園區搬到美國去我覺得這一部分跟委員做一個澄清那如果台積電去 整個供應鏈要不要去 部長"},{"start":128.117,"end":154.179,"text":"沒有啊 現在台積電的這個亞利桑那廠已經開始量產但是供應鏈還是沒有去啊很多都去了 很多都去了而且現在預估到美國投資的台灣廠商科技業而言就要他的對美的投資建一個廠比台灣的投資是要增加五到七倍喔"},{"start":155.981,"end":184.501,"text":"這個數字你們有沒有掌握應該沒有那麼高沒有 你們掌握的沒那麼高是不是你們覺得沒有那麼高是不是那因為美國的生產的條件以及法令的這個跟台灣是有非常大的差異以及他們如何跟美國建立這樣子的一個就是說相關的能夠在台灣就是說有這樣相關的法令的"},{"start":185.241,"end":197.167,"text":"這個可及性在美國並沒有啊是不是這也就是為什麼我們要居獨居就是說台灣政府跟美國政府要有一個比較好的溝通沒有5到7倍 幾倍"},{"start":199.229,"end":226.124,"text":"那這個是企業界的這個營業的秘密這個要台積電來說明啦我們不方便這個是他業者的秘密啦所以現在投資的金額還沒有確定嗎投資的金額你說台積電嗎不是 楊代表楊代表有答案啦"},{"start":227.352,"end":241.882,"text":"報告委員我剛剛已經說明了我們現在的投資金額尚未議定在談判前不便對外說明因為我們要爭取對我業者最有利的條件所以還沒有確定還沒有確定那是不是"},{"start":242.702,"end":265.675,"text":"要以我們整個產硬鏈到美國去增加他們半導體的產出那請問我們是不是變成要幫美國的企業來培養就是他們的就是勞力勞動力在半導體相關製造的勞動力是不是這是不是談的條件之一"},{"start":266.935,"end":289.783,"text":"報告委員我們沒有答應美國說要幫他訓練技術人員我想業者他們在做投資的時候依照他們的需求但是但是美國如果要求台灣的企業到赴美投資的時候他其實有要求我們要用當地的勞動力是不是多大比例"},{"start":293.696,"end":311.423,"text":"沒有談這個但是從對外投資來講當然要用當地的勞工那我們是不是以這樣子就是對於美國半導體製造業技術人力的訓練代替了巨額的資金投入"},{"start":312.874,"end":339.263,"text":"因為你一個廠在那邊 會不會一個廠在那邊要運作基本的這個人力上的這個基本條件還是要存在啊要不然他的廠沒有辦法運作啊 對所以他們本身台積電就會有一些職能訓練但是現在目前就是說在建廠階段他仰賴的是我們台灣的就是說台積電的員工赴美去建廠那甚至開始投入量產嘛"},{"start":340.283,"end":357.182,"text":"那很多建廠的人員已經回來了有一些已經回來了部分啦部分啦那還是最大部分還是仰賴台灣的嗎那他們現在希望說我們能夠訓練這個相關的部分嗎那個葉主委知不知道"},{"start":359.026,"end":374.574,"text":"這個部分的話就台積電自己本身他會有自己的判斷因為畢竟就是說他整個廠在那邊營運的話那到底要怎樣去做人力的安排然後是不是有一些員工要送回來台灣那他們要求多大的比例在地員工"},{"start":376.194,"end":396.062,"text":"所以如果我們不是超越美超越日韓這樣子的投資金額是不是以我們目前來訓練當地的半導體生產的技術人員那來成為我們關稅談判的一個條件之一呢"},{"start":397.762,"end":413.668,"text":"這個應該不會是談判條件兩代表都沒說你們兩個怎麼就在前面講報告委員他都是我們在副院長領導之下最好的談判夥伴所以他們兩個講的代表你們談判的內容嗎我們都一起的"},{"start":414.108,"end":440.616,"text":"所以代表你們談判內容嗎是不是他們剛剛已經表述了這個金額議定而且並沒有說訓練他的勞工室談判關稅減讓的一部分我們現在沒有談到這些好那我再問工部長就是目前我們對於關稅衝擊的這個四大措施就是外銷貸款的保證就是說保證加碼"},{"start":442.031,"end":456.921,"text":"那我發現加碼的荷寶只有10.8億還有中小微企業發展貸款加碼身貸是628件61.4億研發轉型865件那爭取海外訂單549件代表了我們過去認為因應關稅衝擊就是說創造出來的這些方案"},{"start":472.612,"end":481.52,"text":"目前為止 好像效率 成數都不高是不是 那是不是代表我們這些方案的作用呢"},{"start":484.857,"end":509.622,"text":"這樣加起來有兩千多件還是有很多那我們還是要加強宣導因為有些企業可能沒有收到這樣的訊息那所以我們為什麼要因為我們給他四百六十億的特別預算的貸款身貸額度那是四百六十億喔那他其實身貸的還沒有含就是說已經合則的身貸只有六十一億"},{"start":511.583,"end":529.777,"text":"這個執行期間要兩年多所以還有很多的時間可能需要直接經費不是要一次就用完我再問一下楊代表一個事情好不好楊代表我們關稅什麼時候可以抵定啊你知道嗎財政部的出口數字都沒有辦法算"},{"start":531.344,"end":559.939,"text":"報告委員剛剛已經講了我們如果對等二向澳這個供應鏈一談妥的話對等的貴稅率我們一定要調降而且不疊加我們會緊述的依照國人的所以我們期待的是232跟對等關稅一起談嗎是不是這個剛剛我在報告裡面有講美國的我的產業的結構非常特殊是因為半導體還有電子產品造成最大的逆差所以這是兩個協定是一起談的"},{"start":561.019,"end":586.226,"text":"那一起談的情況下對於未來關稅可能下降的這樣的機率有多大你說一下我想政府院長您對領導的團隊有信心我們一定要爭取往下對等條件而且要不疊加這對我們業者才有機率啊楊代表我問一下嘛機率有多高機率非常的高"},{"start":587.588,"end":608.332,"text":"那70% 80%還是90%還是低於70%四個答案嘛 選擇題我想那個底線談判沒有經過核定的話我們不能講到100%但是這是我們最大的期盼我們也有很高的信心可以爭取到那是70% 80%還是90%我還是不做這個比率的評斷機率啊 機率啊 這不是那個機率吧"},{"start":617.833,"end":624.379,"text":"我沒有說妳會百分之百嘛基因非常的高那是多少啊70%以上還是以下"},{"start":625.376,"end":647.473,"text":"我們一定要爭取二三奧供應鏈最好的稅率之下我們才會結束這個談判所以這個談判一結束對等也會調降這是我們最大的期盼機率還是非常的高你都沒有講我跟你講現在全台灣所有的製造業所有的高科技所有都在等你們"},{"start":649.655,"end":663.552,"text":"連財政部政府部門所有明年的稅收預估的數字都沒有辦法出來耶因為不知道明年的出口如何啊是不是但在這個情況下你總要透露給大家一點點那個吧是不是"},{"start":665.138,"end":684.108,"text":"報告委員我還是要講機率真的非常高這是我們努力的一個目標因為任何一個協定沒有談完之後細項一公佈之後可能會影響到我們最好的結果所以我會跟委員報告我們會努力而且機率非常非常的高好 謝謝好 謝謝謝一鋒委員 謝謝我們接下來請"}]}},{"id":"17081","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17081","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db76fe48d3caea90abe155b8c810fa5ce8b4456b5c46cbb78ce82813ffc0b09c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、外交部首長及國家安全局首長就「台美關稅協議之談判方針、進度、爭議事項、雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-01T08:32:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-01T12:33:00+08:00","duration":14443,"影片長度":"04:00:43","委員發言時間":"08:32:17 - 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委員楊瓊英等26人分別擬據《申請法》第2條及第15條條文修正草案等2案5.本院委員吳立華等17人擬據《申請法》第17條之2及第56條之3條文修正草案6.本院委員盧憲一等16人擬據"},{"start":1785.209,"end":1810.344,"text":"申請法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案七 本院委員黃人等二十九人擬拒申請法第十五條條文修正草案八 本院委員羅廷偉等十六人擬拒申請法第二條第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案決議 尋答結束令定期繼續審查 散會 宣讀完畢好那我們現在繼續進行"},{"start":1814.461,"end":1831.473,"text":"報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員行政院經貿談判辦公室首長外交部首長及國家安全局首長就台美關稅協議之談判方針進度爭議事項雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1833.146,"end":1861.248,"text":"好 我們現在原就歷我們現在來介紹列席的機關首長經濟部部長龔明欣部長 謝謝接下來我們國家發展委員會葉主任委員 謝謝接下來行政院國家發展基金管理會副執行秘書葉副執行秘書 謝謝外交部次長陳次長 謝謝接下來國家安全局我們副局長陳副局長"},{"start":1863.491,"end":1870.005,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們行政院經貿談判辦公室我們的總談判代表楊真理女士 謝謝"},{"start":1874.195,"end":1902.445,"text":"好 我們今天的議程排定台美關稅協議之談判方針進度正義事項雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估進行報告並備質詢我首先來請經濟部龔明欣部長做報告主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":1903.286,"end":1930.863,"text":"今天陈文贵委员会邀请就台美关税协议的谈判方针进度正义事项双方可能承诺以及台湾产业的影响评估进行报告那进行各位委员不吝指教美国对等关税新的会理已经在8月7号暂时性的实施那我国对等关税呢是由32叠加MFN的占为暂时性的20%的叠加MFN"},{"start":1933.676,"end":1953.136,"text":"目前台美谈判已经到最后阶段谈判团队一直积极地跟美国磋商针对关税部分我方判调降对等关税税率而且不叠加原税率以及争取232条款的关税优惠待遇台美产业具有高度的互补性"},{"start":1954.182,"end":1977.778,"text":"台湾厂商在美国供应链中也扮演着关心性的角色许多美商也持续地加码布局跟投资台湾我方主张立足台湾布局全球的总体战略目标之下以台湾模式跟美国厂商供应链的合作我方所提出的台湾模式是由企业基于国际布局"},{"start":1978.416,"end":1992.89,"text":"自主规划到美国投资贴近市场并且结合客户延伸产业的实力向美方争取有利的投资的条件跟环境也协助相关的产业在美国来做一些布局"},{"start":1994.195,"end":2014.401,"text":"那透过跟美方的持续的谈判跟磋商呢台湾的适用关税对等项率已经原来由32条件为现在暂时性的20%的税率那为了因应美国关税措施对产业带来的影响因应国际形势强化经济社会以及民生"},{"start":2015.168,"end":2033.478,"text":"国安的任性特别条例已经在10月17号经立法院的三读通过那经济部也编列了460亿的预算来支持产业四大的措施包括了外销贷款优惠保证加码中小为企业的多元发展的贷款加码"},{"start":2034.524,"end":2052.614,"text":"研发转型的补助争取海外的订单来协助产业解决资金周转困难也提升技术能量并强化海外的市场的布局并且从8月7号已经开始全面受理厂商的申请"},{"start":2054.295,"end":2081.253,"text":"那为了协助企业一次性的了解所有可能的资源呢经济部也整合了财政部跟劳动部在11月到12月之间在高雄台中台北宜兰台南等等五场五个场是进行说明会也超过了30场式的实体跟线上的这个座谈会那持续透过各种管道持续的关怀我们厂商那也持续的跟各工协会"},{"start":2081.793,"end":2110.354,"text":"合作来推广说明那协助有需要的厂商提出来做一些申请那目前我方仍在跟美国进行说商后续一旦台美达成最后的协议经济部将尽快的提出产业的影响评估以上报告敬请各位委员指教好谢谢部长的报告我们接下来请国防会主委约进选主委来请做报告"},{"start":2112.558,"end":2137.148,"text":"主席各位委員 先進 大家好今天同盟貴委員會邀請本會列席就台美關稅協議之談判方針進度正義事項還有雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估進行報告本會緊究業管部分提出說明如下敬請各位委員不定指教美國川普總統在今年7月31號簽署行政命令對全球"},{"start":2139.861,"end":2168.038,"text":"貿易夥伴啟動輕易輪關稅調整經過台美雙方數月持續磋商談判目前台灣適用的對等關稅稅率由4月2號美方宣布的最惠國待遇加32%調降為加20%但僅為暫時性的一個關稅措施那我方持續爭取調降對等關稅且不疊加以及232條款中多項關稅最惠國待遇"},{"start":2169.6,"end":2195.2,"text":"同时为我方赴美投资企业争取更有利的投资环境根据智库评估今年1月到10月我国对美出口前30大工业产品属于对等关税豁免清单的出口额约1156亿美元占对美出口总额约76.2%大部分是半导体伺服器等主力出口产品受到美国"},{"start":2197.461,"end":2214.211,"text":"20%暫時性對等關稅影響較小目前盤點受影響較大的主要為工具機 機械 汽車零組件等這些最主要是因為日韓 歐美等競爭對手國的稅率享有15%較優惠的關稅經濟部以及相關部會持續進行產業關懷訪視"},{"start":2219.714,"end":2241.601,"text":"並提出跨部會支持措施協助受衝擊的產業為了協助產業因應國際經貿變局政府將落實執行因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算以支持產業安定就業照顧民生強化任性四大主軸11項措施協助產業"},{"start":2243.201,"end":2259.394,"text":"以維持產業競爭力並透過擴大內需方式穩定台灣經濟發展動力那此外為因應國際經貿環境變化及科技發展需求政府將以國力新十大動能以及AI新十大建設雙進制塔計畫為主籌強化我國在國際變局中的競爭力與韌性"},{"start":2265.396,"end":2288.683,"text":"最後美國關稅新政對全球經貿成長及供應鏈佈局產生深遠影響政府將持續密切關注美國經貿政策與相關談判進展落實推動支持產業與安定就業相關措施並與民間攜手合作透過促進產業創新升級多元全球佈局發展內需等方式確保台灣經濟與產業在"},{"start":2290.283,"end":2308.827,"text":"全球经贸禁局中持续稳健发展强化韧性与竞争力以上报告敬请指教谢谢好谢谢谢谢主委的报告接下来我们请外交我们请这个行政院经贸谈判办公室总谈判人杨珍妮女士谢谢"},{"start":2312.169,"end":2331.371,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早今天承蒙衛委員會邀請本辦公室就台美關稅協議之談判方針進度爭議事項雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估進行報告敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":2332.97,"end":2354.947,"text":"有关台美这次的谈判是在川普总统上任后推动美国优先贸易及投资政策4月1号公布对等关税以及跟各国展开谈判台湾经济高度仰赖外贸且台美逆差结构特殊高达九成来自半导体 自动性 产品 电子产业"},{"start":2355.687,"end":2366.453,"text":"涉及美方正進行的232國家安全調查條款調查使得我國對美關稅的談判必須就對等關稅及232調查產業供應鏈多項關稅一併磋商"},{"start":2372.637,"end":2395.137,"text":"剛剛拱部長及國發會主委已經說明了我們從8月7號美國給我們既有的稅率及20%的暫時性稅率之後我方持續跟美方洽談供應鏈的合作並爭取調降對等關稅且不疊加原有的MFN稅率以及232關稅最優惠的待遇"},{"start":2396.209,"end":2418.978,"text":"美方是追求農業工業產品出口公平互惠貿易的環境實現再公正化我國追求經濟安全供應鏈的韌性與永續的繁榮台美雙方可透過談判促進貿易平衡建立互惠互利的經貿體系更進一步發展台美高科技"},{"start":2419.858,"end":2449.164,"text":"技术伙伴的关系那我方谈判团队我想大家都了解之期是由行政院政府院长接同经贸谈判办公室经济部 农业部 卫护部财政部以及国家安全委员会等以美国贸易代表署以及美国商务部就贸易平衡供应链的合作进行多次磋商历经经过五轮的实体以及数十次的线上磋商取得进展"},{"start":2450.748,"end":2460.125,"text":"除了現在進行文件的交換之外現階段主要談判的重點是以台灣模式與美方洽談供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2461.491,"end":2488.833,"text":"我在這邊再提醒一次是因為我們在第一次實體收商的時候我方已向美方說明我國有國會的保留權條款未來完整協議文件文本將以國會將以我國的條約締結法送交國會審議一旦以美方達成協議行政院團隊將立即向國會及社會完整說明協議內容一併提交"},{"start":2489.654,"end":2509.36,"text":"影響評估並將協議文本送交國會審議那有關對等談判的方面我方談判團隊一向秉持國家產業利益維護國民健康糧食安全為核心原則以美方溝通關稅非關稅障礙經濟安全貿易變節化以商業機會"},{"start":2511.328,"end":2526,"text":"目前來我們在對等談判已經在技術性大抵定現在做文件的交換但是在232談判我們目前是以台灣模式與美方進行這個供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2526.841,"end":2547.286,"text":"所谓的台湾模式有分两点向大家说明许多台湾高科技产业已是国际级的企业对美投资是台湾供应链的延伸我国业者为争取AI商机也已展开对美布局在这个趋势之下我方期盼以台湾制造的优势"},{"start":2548.286,"end":2569.167,"text":"结合美国研发创新人才及市场的共同发展台美高科技战略伙伴关系因此我国依循跟流台湾布局全球总体战略目标根据产业的优势经济发展的需要提出台湾模式对美投资方案"},{"start":2569.807,"end":2581.997,"text":"一 产业投资由企业基于国际的布局自主规划第二 我政府透过信用保证机制支持金融机构协助企业赴美投资"},{"start":2583.157,"end":2611.393,"text":"第三透過政府的合作彼此政府的合作降低我企業赴美投資的成本跟風險建立產業園區包括向美爭取有利的投資環境包括土地水電法規環境等當然最重要我們也向美方表示我國業者赴美投資避免雙重課稅協定希望美方國會早日通過以利我們跟美方協商及其爭取"},{"start":2612.674,"end":2623.519,"text":"最后我们表示我们深信在行政院的林院长跟副院长的带领之下我国谈判团队持续维护国家的利益守护产业的利益"},{"start":2624.87,"end":2651.327,"text":"守護國民的健康糧食安全的核心原則與美方進行說商期盼不久的將來就供應鏈的合作跟美方達成共識將爭取對等稅率且不疊加MFN稅率的最優惠及232條款最優惠待遇為我國打造公平有利的競爭環境爭取我國最大的利益以上報告進行主席各位委員指教謝謝好"},{"start":2658.357,"end":2679.411,"text":"謝謝楊總代表 謝謝接下來我們請問剛剛所宣讀的議事錄請問有沒有問題沒有 我們議事錄確認現場有我們的陳庭輝委員 林大華委員還有徐宇貞委員 還有邱益穎委員在現場 謝謝接下來本次的會議各部會所"},{"start":2680.592,"end":2707.857,"text":"提的这个书面报告请各位委员自行参阅并刊登公报现在我们要进行询答在询答前我们依照就例做以下的一个宣告每位委员发言的时间五分钟本委文会必要时再增加两分钟那非本委会的呢四分钟那上午十点半截止登记首先我们请第一位登记第一位的陈廷飞委员请发言"},{"start":2713.931,"end":2718.159,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請經濟部部長我們請經濟部工部長蔣委員長"},{"start":2726.734,"end":2748.98,"text":"部長早因為大家現在已經進入到最後的一個階段我們已經談了很久那目前基本上在做一些文書的交換那我們當然希望說可以趕快定案可是現在說真的定不定案是在於美方到底他"},{"start":2749.62,"end":2778.701,"text":"要怎麼樣去訂定這樣的一個方向那我們一直強調說我們希望用台灣模式台灣模式這四個字很重要喔台灣模式好我們既然已經進入到文書交換的階段那麼這個部分到底什麼叫台灣模式報告委員台灣模式就是說因為我們廠商啊他"},{"start":2779.983,"end":2808.022,"text":"立足台湾以后他开始要布局全球那布局全球呢他们有他们的自主性的一些思考那如果在美国当地有订单那他评估起来又有可能去满足客户又有可能赚钱的情况之下那我们政府怎么样协助跟美方政府共同来协助他可以顺利的落地然后产生这个经济上的效应这个就是我们双方来讲的模式就好像"},{"start":2808.863,"end":2827.111,"text":"我們現在園區最大的優勢有兩項一個就是這個園區裡面一站式的服務所有的都可以幫忙行政上協調都可以那這個當然要雙邊的行政單位共同來討論怎麼樣讓這個可以達成這樣一站式的服務出來另外一個是產業的聚落的形成"},{"start":2827.911,"end":2843.296,"text":"那我们就协助很多的厂商他们如果有需要产生这个群聚的效应或是供应链的合作关系那这个供应链也不一定是在当地也有可能跟台湾形成供应链的关系良性的循环那我们希望达到这样的一个效果"},{"start":2843.416,"end":2858.232,"text":"所以你們已經把台灣產業把它很多樣態做一個方向跟美國去討論的這樣的方向雙向溝通的一個指標嗎對對對所以這就是台灣模式對對對"},{"start":2859.113,"end":2888.373,"text":"所以表示我们已经把台湾所有产业的样态有可能受到冲击的有可能变成是双向合作的或是第三个一站式的所谓服务平台甚至是我们可以把目前他们的需求度跟他们有受到冲击的部分跟美方做一个对谈的方向是这个样子吗你们已经都盘点出来的吗"},{"start":2889.133,"end":2910.406,"text":"所以比较不像日本跟韩国,因为日本跟韩国他们是拿一笔钱出来给美方他们去做投资,那产生的效益以后大家来均分,我们不是这样,我们是厂商他自主性有这样的一个客户上的一些需有,而产生这样的一个形式,所以跟要先拿出一笔钱出来是不太一样的。"},{"start":2910.786,"end":2925.773,"text":"所以我們是以產業端來做一個平衡導向甚至是對談的一個策略對不對好 那請問那現在我們一直在強調說要去爭取調降對等關稅的這個部分在我們雙方的討論你認為有信心嗎"},{"start":2935.245,"end":2949.78,"text":"杨总在这边我们有信心有信心吗可以往下再来我们争取不叠加依照原MFN最惠国待遇的税率这个有信心吗"},{"start":2950.08,"end":2977.16,"text":"对我们也有信心也有信心吗好我们来争取232条款多项关税优惠有信心吗是是这个都是我们努力的目标我看到我们总裁在点头了有信心了但你点的太小太小了媒体没看到了好来那我们是不是也应该就像刚刚部长所说的我们的台湾模式就是要让我们的企业"},{"start":2977.921,"end":3004.555,"text":"要赴美的企业争取更有利的投资环境跟条件是的有信心吗这个就是我们所谓的台湾模式对透过我们的行政单位跟对方的行政单位相互的沟通让这个投资环境更有优化让我们的厂商他的期待去联名可以贴近客户以后而且甚至也可以赚到钱然后这些钱也可以回馈到台湾来以后然后持续的研发往前走"},{"start":3005.04,"end":3025.165,"text":"所以這段時間其實我們在努力的就是這個區塊我們要有別於其他國家我們要用一個所謂的台灣模式因為現在全國都在看這一次談判的最後狀況跟結論所以我們一直都很低調因為畢竟"},{"start":3027.105,"end":3049.569,"text":"在谈论的当中在沟通的当中我们不能自己去做任何所谓资讯的揭露我们都还要尊重在还没有确定到最后一个阶段的时候我们所讲的最后一里路的部分我们不能擅自去公布我们自己所谈的内容"},{"start":3050.329,"end":3071.635,"text":"這就是我們現在其實最為難的地方了對不對我們必須要有成熟了然後美方有同意了我們才能慢慢的去丟出這個風向所以我相信最近已經有所謂的台灣模式應該剛剛不論是部長或是總裁頭都點得很大"},{"start":3072.375,"end":3088.855,"text":"表示我们应该是已经有信心了才会提出台湾模式这个方向对不对好 我们总裁是不是来我们的这个备询台下对 因为这样子好 我们请媒体看的会比较清楚总裁代表"},{"start":3090.401,"end":3116.736,"text":"對 謝謝然後不好意思就是說在這個部分我們的台灣模式應該是有信心吧包括我剛說的爭取條件對等關稅爭取不疊加原最惠國待遇稅率爭取232條款多項關稅優惠然後如何讓我們要富美的企業爭取更有利的投資環境與條件所以非常有信心台灣模式"},{"start":3117.991,"end":3135.27,"text":"报告委员我们相信在副院长的带领这些团队之下我们一定会争取你刚刚所调的目标我们有信心有信心了所以为什么最近大家都在讨论我们卓院长所说的台湾模式就是大概已经有一个框架了"},{"start":3135.951,"end":3164.719,"text":"在最後等待文書的確認因為文書沒有確認說真的我們只能透露一點點但是看到我們部長跟總裁頭點得蠻大的我相信我們非常有信心我們一起加油謝謝你們辛苦了我們談判團隊辛苦了謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請林黛華委員請做巡檔"},{"start":3175.12,"end":3178.175,"text":"有請部長跟總談判代表好 我們請兩位"},{"start":3185.202,"end":3213.713,"text":"好 那部長您包括總談判代表你們認為說這個台灣模式把台灣的類工業區或類科學園區這個隨著台積電過去我們來見識這個會對台灣有什麼衝擊呢我講的是衝擊兩個字你剛才講的是優點那這個可能的缺點或可能的衝擊是什麼呢有沒有部長和總談判代表分別回答"},{"start":3215.066,"end":3240.929,"text":"大家有些会担心说这样会不会排挤到国内投资实际上是不会因为我们听到台积电它的一些未来对台湾跟美国的布局基本上是不会产生有排挤的效果而且它持续的会加码投资台湾最先进的技术也会留在台湾好 来 总谈判代表来 您的意见"},{"start":3242.08,"end":3264.1,"text":"委員我們這次的模式還是以更有台灣然後佈局全球所以我想在過程中我們有尋往中小企業的一些意見因為他們也是想把他們的企業跟他們的那你覺得中小企業如果過去的話他會需要政府什麼支持那對台灣又有什麼影響"},{"start":3264.781,"end":3279.046,"text":"他希望的政府支持是說比如在土地 水電還有行政的一些措施尤其是法規方面希望政府能夠提供協助所以才會說剛剛這會不會變成中小企業本身技術跟資金的外移呢"},{"start":3280.67,"end":3307.089,"text":"我想應該不是外流 是把他想要接近客戶去做好 那我來 本席來跟您做一些討論第一個 在川普政府美國製造的目標下亞洲各國的產業如半導體 AI伺服器 電動車等無人機為了規避累加稅率而赴美投資這些產業背後的生態劇包括石化 設備 產物 被動源泉 金屬加工像塑膠等"},{"start":3309.671,"end":3327.538,"text":"是否會外移社長的趨勢衝擊我國目前的產業值得我國深思第二個根據中經院在對於今年2024年台灣對美投資的金額已經創歷年新高而且是從前年2023年2024年連續兩年美國是超越中國成為台灣最大的投資地"},{"start":3334.64,"end":3362.715,"text":"赴美工作的人数已经有13.7万这样的趋势是否会造成本土竞争力的挑战所以当然本席也会支持你们积极的谈判降低对等关税争取不叠加最惠国待遇的税率但是媒体报道台湾将投资美国4000亿而且以台湾模式设置类科学园区所以我也请你们一定要思考如何确保中小企业不是技术跟资金的外溢"},{"start":3363.095,"end":3385.241,"text":"而是開拓新市場好本席提出過往的失敗的經驗類科學園區不能重演台商附中的潛力有提出三點第一個產業外移是我國產業的痛過去從台商外移中國東南亞造成技術人才的雙重空洞化好在蔡英文總統時期以及2019年推出了"},{"start":3386.101,"end":3412.341,"text":"投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回流 資金回流2.5兆元創造了8萬個就業機會我們這麼努力從蔡英文執政8年當中再加上2019年這樣才造才回流2.5兆而且才造才創造8萬個工作機會所以增加投資決定就業的成長好你們宣稱"},{"start":3416.416,"end":3435.963,"text":"這個台美關稅談判與其他國家不同 包括台積電在內的投資台灣模式是由政府 我這些都照念喔 你的簡報由政府為赴美台商投資融資信用保證 讓中小企業可以跟著供應鏈到美國海外設廠 並由美國在類工業區內提供護照"},{"start":3438.104,"end":3454.249,"text":"水電等行政變節這樣的模式是否會掏空人才現在的如果我按照爆派的說法爆派提供護照過往我在這邊工作兩年我希望美國提供這個拘留證"},{"start":3455.88,"end":3474.334,"text":"長期居留證現在我們是加碼希望不只要提供居留證而是要提供居住證直接成為可以成為美國公民了這個會不會掏空人才了而我剛才已經提出個數據了目前我們跟著在這個連著2023、2024年現在赴美投資的有13.7萬人了"},{"start":3479.298,"end":3501.639,"text":"好這樣的提供附照是不是又加快了我們掏空人才呢我並沒有反對我講的是一個衝擊面的因應再來本席呼籲類科學園區不能重演台商附中的潛力將製造及多數就業機會帶到國外留下這就是過往的做法留下少數母公司的職缺在北部跟中部"},{"start":3502.199,"end":3525.148,"text":"而中部政府必須協助企業維持在本國的產線輔導本國的中小企業進入先進產業的供應鏈這是本席的主張所以只有台灣持續製造跟研發海外設廠才會有源源不絕的供應鏈也就是你要建立起非紅供應鏈也就是要建立起民主的供應鏈的價值"},{"start":3526.548,"end":3555.814,"text":"如果你沒有在這個台積電赴美國或者是日本或者是德國當中你沒有建立起國內相關半導體設備化的國產化的積極的導入的時候那不好意思只好我們的資金人才等同過去台商投資中國跟東南亞的這樣技術人才的雙重空洞化在你的簡報當中我並沒有看到這樣的一個因應之道"},{"start":3556.354,"end":3559.038,"text":"好所以推動半導體供應鏈國產化部長您認為這個議題可行嗎"},{"start":3564.518,"end":3590.317,"text":"现在进行当中进行当中来说看看吧就是我们现在当然整个半导体前端的这个设备是因为ASMO他们是门槛是比较高一点但是我们先从后端的这个封装设备开始进行那现在已经表现非常好先进封装现在大概都可以国产化了所以将来在西光子往前推的话这个供应链的国产化也可以形成"},{"start":3591.478,"end":3612.535,"text":"你講得還蠻抽象的 等一下我會具體要求你如何以高雄的3奈米的一個台積電的基地去組建起我這個半導體的國產化就以高雄為基地 你看要怎麼做 本期有具體的建議 希望以專案的方式就能夠落實你剛才講的"},{"start":3613.275,"end":3632.823,"text":"好 半導體跟人工智慧產業是台灣經濟成長的主要動能所以這些動能隨著全球的佈局分別到美國 日本 德國所以台積電赴美投資1650億電子業如台達電 偉創 鴻海 英達 英業達給各自投入上億元在美國的投資去年的總額到141億"},{"start":3635.184,"end":3660.466,"text":"億的美元如果其他的產線跟供應鏈現在是電子業跟著去喔我們有好多相關的這個相關的這個金屬加工包括我們的這些石化的複材也都可能跟著去喔如果他的類工業區的這個人才的優惠這麼好你工作兩年就可以拿到永久居住證的話哇那我想不是只有13.7萬人會過去而已"},{"start":3663.148,"end":3690.222,"text":"所以在這邊本席憂慮的不是只有人才包括我們本國今年預估要達到GDP的成長率是達到7.37%本席都相當的憂慮所以主張維持本土製造業的量能必須做到三件事情第一個就針對半導體設備的中小企業相關的傳統產業透過共同研發或者取得國際認證"},{"start":3692.263,"end":3708.144,"text":"這個是我們這個傳統產業在相關的設備業當中我們的高門檻因為現在還是都是這些半導體業他還是跟德國美國跟日本歐美國家採買嘛他不買台灣的嘛那你希望組建台灣的這樣的"},{"start":3709.345,"end":3735.91,"text":"一個相關設備的國產化你一定要除了導入研發還要取得國際認證進入半導體的供應鏈第二個 鼓勵外資在台灣使用台灣四兆的設備零組件跟耗材第三個 加強半導體產業與化工 模具 機械 電子等技質體系進行產學合作讓人才不一定一風光的景氣半導體產業也能在船廠扮演不可取代的角色"},{"start":3736.63,"end":3765.945,"text":"好在這邊我再要點醒這個半導體設備國產化我們有沒有利基也必須一定要做或者你的類工業區分析再次的提醒你只會再次的變成投資台商進入東南亞台商進入中國的技術跟人才的掏空好半導體產業不只是只有矽金源一片金源需要至少300個工序背後的設備跟零件"},{"start":3766.385,"end":3787.897,"text":"就都是大量傳統產業的資源比如說我舉一個案例日本的花王他將洗去髒汙的而且不傷害肌膚的技術用於清洗晶圓所以傳統產業長年累積的經驗只要經過半導體產業的合作就能成為改善良率的工程"},{"start":3788.803,"end":3807.984,"text":"第二個以高雄為例以台積電有先進的2奈米製程也有日月光的先進封裝過往相關的零組件化學材料都是跟日本德國買而高雄當然也有金屬加工化工等重要的產業整個石化產業幾乎我們就有"},{"start":3809.585,"end":3832.577,"text":"這個台中油中油就有兩個兩大石化專區在這邊包括民間的我們的大社工業區總共加起來民營跟中油就有三個石化產業那所以呢因此政府應該協助更多有意願美門路的傳統產業跨過資新技術的雙重門檻進入高價值值的半導體產業面"},{"start":3833.858,"end":3842.003,"text":"好 我們當然最後也期待我們的政府能夠提出 談出更好的條件讓螺絲扣件跟半導體可以避免232條款的課稅範圍但是本席非常的憂慮如果你沒有起見半導體產業的國產化你只會讓我傳統產業可能有滅亡的困境"},{"start":3855.55,"end":3875.941,"text":"其實現在是不可說的公開秘密整個這個構建業金屬加工業跟石化業其實在高雄都已經在放無薪假了所以但是呢如果說你沒有再正式這樣你們再一直喊這個所謂的類科學園區本席不反對你只要把相關國內的基礎產業做好"},{"start":3879.402,"end":3893.993,"text":"那這個也不是一天兩天的事必須從現在就開始本行沒有意見因為他真的是擴張他真的是在國際佈局擴張海外市場所以針對這些傳統產業只有貿易條件改善還不足還要投入資金輔導煤核傳產儘速進入半導體產業供應也讓未來的傳產以台灣為基地"},{"start":3899.617,"end":3914.767,"text":"他不只服務到美國去投資台積電而可以呢也可以賣給世界各國的半導體產業建立起台灣製造業的不可取代性這邊具體要求經濟部國發會經濟部以專案的方式加速輔導國內傳統產業導入半導體製程或設備供應鏈"},{"start":3919.85,"end":3928.514,"text":"那這個方案當然是希望傳統產業能夠增加技術的升級部長這邊我要很明確的講其實你的半導體產業的這個設備國產化我希望你"},{"start":3931.912,"end":3953.838,"text":"真的認真的評估很仔細的評估能夠以專案方式來跟本院報告第二個國發會呢推動信賴產業你的信賴產業我也在這邊具體要求因為台美的你們的這個所談出的條件你的信賴產業就是目前正在做重點放在半導體的後端製程的國產化"},{"start":3954.958,"end":3974.653,"text":"切割貼合封裝測試等設備這都可以規劃國內的供應鏈增加自製零組件耗材材料設備的國產化比例讓傳統產業也成為半導體產業的隱形冠軍再來以國科會請你也以專案的方式提出報告"},{"start":3975.814,"end":3993.766,"text":"以高雄的3奈米量產基地為核心運用你的國發淨金運用你的大南方新矽谷的計畫的這個方案的錢跟政策導向投資半導體設備國產供應鏈提供我國工業區園區的需求以輔導傳統產業進入半導體產業兩個部會這個國發會跟那個好那我們請單位就針對委員所提的這是非常重要請會後也跟委員詳細說明"},{"start":4006.074,"end":4015.738,"text":"那是不是請主席協助裁示一下這個是給他們一個時間那您那個部長跟因為我們時間你要三個月嗎來部長您說吧兩個月兩個月好謝謝以上好接下來我們請邱議員委員請做詢答"},{"start":4038.494,"end":4058.068,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下部長我們再請工部長部長早部長請教一下現在的談判進度如何應該是說大致上你們下一次什麼時候會再過去"},{"start":4059.363,"end":4063.685,"text":"好像兩邊還在談時間那您現在可以對外公布的兩邊現在磋商的氣氛跟進度是怎麼樣還是這個是要請這個臺灣代表來說明氣氛應該不錯吧好我們請 謝謝"},{"start":4082.927,"end":4104.896,"text":"謝謝委員我想美方從我們4月開始跟他談判的時候都非常的肯定我方的務實積極的態度所以談判的氣氛是正向的發展所以現在談判的氣氛是正向的發展那您覺得國內在對於我們談判的這個研判上面是不是也是正向的肯定正向的發展呢"},{"start":4107.226,"end":4121.497,"text":"我想我們從當初的4月1號開始32降到暫時的稅率20的部分我想國內的企業是肯定但是國人希望我們再加速談判能夠把20往下調漲且不疊加"},{"start":4122.397,"end":4140.784,"text":"製造一個穩定的環境這是我們努力的方向好 那我要進一步請教如果20不疊加能夠再往下調降這當然是我們最期待的方式我們看到臨近的包括像日本他們承諾日本政府承諾要有5500億的美元投資"},{"start":4141.644,"end":4168.156,"text":"以期換到他們的關稅能夠降到15%南韓承諾有3500億的美元投資也期待他們的關稅能夠降到15%那我們現在的暫時性關稅是20%對外有媒體預估政府大概會希望能夠有這個民間企業或者是我不知道是民間企業去投資有400億美元去投資美國"},{"start":4169.156,"end":4190.647,"text":"那當然在這個過程裡頭其實就有引來了很多在野黨的批評他們說這個政府拍板了12兆台幣的財政支出然後他說我們政府是善財同子如果要這個12兆去投資美國每一個人可以領50萬這是黑箱作業這是賣國作業我請教您怎麼看"},{"start":4194.807,"end":4210.92,"text":"你認同這個說法嗎報告委員我不認同這個說法因為這一個4千億應該是揣測的而且首先我們也沒有互相作業因為任何一個談判的細節沒到定案我們沒有辦法對外說明所以金額尚未議定"},{"start":4212.699,"end":4241.685,"text":"4000億是揣測所以那您認為未來所以這個也不是政府去投資嘛這個應該是企業去投資嘛是不是來 部長您對著麥克風講這樣才能夠有記錄啊您的搖頭點頭記錄不到這個不為所謂的12兆什麼財政支出沒有這個東西啊因為我們剛才提到台灣模式就是台灣的企業自主性的他要貼近客戶有了訂單然後也確定可以賺錢那政府就是幫忙兩邊的政府幫忙把這個事情促成 完成"},{"start":4242.806,"end":4256.987,"text":"提供很好的投資環境跟條件出來那這個是我們的我們不是像美國不是像日本跟韓國就有一筆錢拿去那邊做財政投資不是這樣的所以這個我覺得還是要對外說明清楚當然會有"},{"start":4258.288,"end":4285.706,"text":"有人會惡意炒作就說這個是我們政府的財政支出去投資4000億美元實際上並不是這樣這個大概都是企業自主的投資但是相對的我們希望企業去投資美國的同時經濟部對於國內的這些產業的保護措施也要同步的進行我知道你們現在有在進行中但是這個進行的幅度跟進行的廣度"},{"start":4286.326,"end":4314.264,"text":"是不是能夠適時的讓我們的傳產或者是在國內的企業能夠非常清楚的了解政府對他們的照顧我想我們一方面要保護我們的傳產保護我們台灣的產業一方面我們又希望能夠把關稅降到大家可以負擔可以接受的範圍之內其實政府非常的辛苦但是我要提醒一點任何的談判都不應該在談判之前你就先出底牌"},{"start":4314.884,"end":4341.837,"text":"你同意我的看法嗎所以這個談判的底牌會是怎麼樣除了多方磋商以外我認為經濟部跟我們談判辦公室應該是要確實掌控甚至要以台灣優先不是只有台灣模式而是要以台灣優先來保護台灣的產業這個會是我們的第一要務這個我也要請經濟部能夠確實的注意那第二點"},{"start":4343.518,"end":4360.745,"text":"談判辦可以先回部長我還要請教一個比較時事的問題最近我們有非常多的討論關於有一個叫做瑞幸咖啡這個是在中國成立的一個咖啡大型連鎖店他即將來台灣插旗台灣的市場"},{"start":4362.026,"end":4383.386,"text":"聽說首家的門市就會落腳在台北市的南京復興商圈那他的徵才廣告也已經開始了那我看部長您這幾天對外的發言都說這個是一個代理商他是 他不是中資因為他 我們沒有接貨這個瑞信他來申請我們國內投資的這個"},{"start":4384.507,"end":4412.06,"text":"這個申請案是沒有的所以他是用代理的方式透過代理商的方式然後在台灣插旗台灣的市場準備在台灣的落腳但是如果這個我覺得經濟部您還是要去持續的觀察過去我們一直講中資中資轉新加坡資轉港資現在換一條路他直接找台灣的公司直接代理"},{"start":4413.359,"end":4431.488,"text":"那代理是一個問題這個是你們要去觀察我現在要談的是資安的風險他在美國這家這個瑞幸咖啡在美國要求他們的所有的點餐一定要下載他的APP那這個APP跟我們一般在餐廳的這個掃QR Code的點餐不太一樣"},{"start":4432.388,"end":4460.667,"text":"這個APP還會收集他的個人資料聯絡方式 定位 交易記錄 電子郵件跟簡訊甚至他的網頁瀏覽記錄等等的敏感資訊都會透過這個APP去收集這個已經遠超過一個點咖啡 買咖啡 買一杯咖啡所需要得到的資訊了這個我想要請經濟部是不是能夠密切掌握這件事情"},{"start":4461.167,"end":4475.347,"text":"或者你們現在有沒有掌握會 如果這個代理商他是屬於本國的企業他雖然代理了國外的但是我們會要求他要完全要符合我們國內的個資法相關規定我們也要求他所有的個資必須要留在台灣"},{"start":4476.519,"end":4502.298,"text":"你要求他的個資留在台灣但是他如果掃這個app download這個app很多資訊就直接回傳回去了啊你怎麼要求他留在台灣這個是我要求你們要去實際的調查了解掌握會會會你要求他留在台灣但是這個東西透過雲端就回去了啊你要求他也沒用啊我們會了解他的這個個資相關怎麼蒐集怎麼運用好包括他是不是"},{"start":4503.058,"end":4520.931,"text":"跟在美國一樣強制要Download他的App才能去點餐而他的這個App的設計裡面是不是有我剛剛提到的這一些東西這個我是不是也能夠請經濟部或者是你們跟行政院的資安辦能夠充分的密切去掌握這件事情可以可以好嗎好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":4537.296,"end":4541.923,"text":"謝謝主席 請工部長還有談判總代表 楊總代表好 我們請兩位 謝謝綠園總是 部長 總代表"},{"start":4551.431,"end":4578.873,"text":"这个美国的对等关税它现在不仅是我们又关我们国我国的这个出口产业生存的空间而且关乎于我们整个台美经贸关系的这个稳定性那如何让我们的产业不会被这个不合理的关税所伤害到现在还在磋商现在暂行的那个税率是20%对不对那现在的话我们看到在这20%的话我们希望"},{"start":4579.333,"end":4599.999,"text":"能夠在關稅上可以談到可以往20%來往下降最好是跟日韓一樣都是15%那也不要再疊加那剛剛兩位都提到說很有信心可以談成那請問一下到底這個對等關稅什麼時候會談成可能在今年年底會談好嗎"},{"start":4602.078,"end":4627.157,"text":"报告委员时间有急迫性但是要谈一个好的对国人有利的方向你一直不谈的话他还是在20%所以我们的竞争力就被影响了不是我们在谈判这个过程中一定要争取要调降对等调降而且不叠加所以赶快谈你们有信心会调降那就赶快把它谈成这期限还是不知道一直谈下去"},{"start":4627.958,"end":4638.737,"text":"我们也不可能不会我们会努力的尽量的努力还有时间表但是也要是为我国人争取最好所以你们谈不成的话就一直还是28"},{"start":4640.595,"end":4661.452,"text":"我想这是我们努力的目标一定要调教所以努力再加油好不好那因为现在这个外媒的报道里面有说台湾投资美国的这个4000亿这个美金那你们有来出来辟谣说这只是揣测而已那还请问你们在谈当中会低于4000亿吗美金"},{"start":4664.12,"end":4671.927,"text":"報告委員 我想任何的談判的細節我們還是不會在你們說都有信心那這比4000億美金低有信心嗎"},{"start":4673.25,"end":4701.476,"text":"我想我们会努力的朝我们要降低不是这个金额的数字去努力还是有信心好那谈到这边的话特别要提到说因为讲到日韩那日本跟韩国的话他们的投资一个是日本是5500亿美金韩国是3500亿美金但是占有他们国家的GDP这比例的话日本是占GDP大概是14%那个韩国是占有20%"},{"start":4702.836,"end":4714.805,"text":"如果台灣是4千億美金的話佔我們台灣的4千億佔我們的GDP的話是50%一半這是我們國家的整個財政環境能夠承受的嗎"},{"start":4716.235,"end":4733.774,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下所以你都要預估進去啊我們的條件是台灣模式一定依照我們經濟發展產業的結構跟業者的需求來做談判所以我們不將日本跟韓國他們模式不一樣我們不做比較"},{"start":4735.001,"end":4761.856,"text":"總代表你一直在講台灣模式台灣模式的話並不是說我們把它的科學園區不是說只是劃一塊地給它那整個我們的基礎建設跟我們的整個行政制度跟人才還有學術整個都會帶過去的是不是所以你有沒有考慮到如果說我們在協助美國在訓練它美國的勞工我們的關鍵技術會不會有外流的這個缺口"},{"start":4762.456,"end":4772.069,"text":"還有就是說我們整個這個環境跟我們勞工這個我們半導體是不可取代的這個地位會不會就會喪失掉"},{"start":4774.636,"end":4788.929,"text":"包委員不會因為最先進的技術還是會在台灣你一直講最先進的技術沒錯但是我們在訓練美國的勞工的時候這個技術這整個工業的技術就會有這個缺口有這個危險性這個風險會產生的它是一個operator的這個"},{"start":4793.493,"end":4805.749,"text":"技能啦它不是研發單位啦所以這個還要防範這個風險好不好這是我們國人所擔心的期待你們這個缺口不要發生那至於我們談到這個"},{"start":4810.612,"end":4838.095,"text":"在四月份的時候我們談到四月份在整個台灣這個貿易這個逆差這個環境裡面我們有談到總代表你可以先回去那因為我們看到四月份這個賴清德總統在特別因應這個美國對等關稅有談到說我們要針對農業工業這個能源部分的話跟美國減低這美國的貿易這個逆差要跟這個阿拉斯加這個"},{"start":4841.011,"end":4843.755,"text":"購買這個液化的這個天然氣喔我們也簽訂了這個這個特別的簽訂"},{"start":4847.664,"end":4873.66,"text":"這個意向書都簽訂下去了但是這個有個重要的關鍵問題就是阿拉斯加這個我們雖然簽訂了這個意向書但是它這個距離我們有1300公里這個距離本來是日韓跟我們台灣要一起的但是我們看到日本跟韓國非常的保留這個態度而我們卻要積極去爭取這個整個管線的這個工程是不是"},{"start":4874.64,"end":4888.03,"text":"我們為什麼會把這個意向書這管線的地方我們沒有一個平衡的一個爭取報告委員因為當初已經簽了意向書表達是1月這意向書包括這管線嗎對 表達是1月他是附帶條件嗎"},{"start":4889.608,"end":4909.958,"text":"那因為阿斯嘉事實上距離台灣啊算相對來講如果以天然氣來講的話還算相對近的它只有7天1300公里7天的航程如果是船運的話那當然主要還是以船運為主啦對如果這個管線的話你們去爭取這個工程的話這個費用是誰出"},{"start":4911.738,"end":4935.39,"text":"管線的話 它那個管線不是講說要拉到台灣來拉到整個亞洲嘛但是我們有去爭取嘛我們非常積極去爭取但是日本跟韓國都保留啊那如果說日本跟韓國不去爭取不去投資它的話那這樣子的話等於是我們台灣一個國家在爭取一個國家在投資建到港口啦"},{"start":4936.23,"end":4962.025,"text":"管线是从他的产地到港口不是要拉到台湾来主干线1300公里拉过来了那你要拉到日本韩国再支线再拉过去这是一定的嘛那我说我们现在在管理这个管线的时候是怎么样子争取的都是船运啦他拉到港口就是阿拉斯加的港口以后然后再船运到那这1300公里是怎么对对对现在的规划是这个样子他这个距离就1300公里"},{"start":4963.752,"end":4973.677,"text":"那主要就是要船運過來啊是啊 還是船運啊但是這個主幹線1300公里本來是日本 韓國跟我們嘛董事長 您說"},{"start":4976.74,"end":5002.555,"text":"這個管線我說明一下它是從那個阿拉斯加州的北邊最北邊那邊拉一條800英里的管線到南邊來我這個都知道我的意思是說日本 韓國跟我們本來是針對我們這三個人有這個意向嘛對不對但是現在爭取的只有我們有這個投資意願日本跟韓國都沒有啊我們只是表達這個意向而已事實上最後要不要投入的話還是要看它的效益的結果"},{"start":5003.038,"end":5026.756,"text":"如果未來日本 韓國沒有這個意願的話我們也不投資嗎我們也不要不一定 看它實質的投資效益有沒有具備那個效益有點是 那我的意思是說如果之後這個管線是我們投資進去的話我們到時候購買的這個液態的這個天然氣的話成本就必須要降低啊到時候我們拉出來的話日本現在沒有 日本 韓國不要投資到時候我們投資進去了"},{"start":5027.276,"end":5047.109,"text":"因為我們不會是唯一的投資國啦所以我想請問嘛我請問日本 韓國若不投資進去的話我們也不會投資是不是其他國家通通不投資我們當然沒有辦法投好 我們就要這個答案日本 韓國沒有去爭取的投資的話我們就不能投資好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做詢問"},{"start":5060.64,"end":5074.203,"text":"好 謝謝主席給龔部長喝一口水好 我們請楊代表 龔部長還有我們國發會的葉主委好 我們請三位 謝謝各位早安謝委員好"},{"start":5083.783,"end":5105.313,"text":"我們卓院長他已經證實了台美目前在交換文件的這個階段了那我們知道國人都在意的是我們有沒有比日本韓國更好的條件那日本韓國他們分別都已經承諾投資5500億跟3500億那台灣到底投資多少"},{"start":5110.871,"end":5139.156,"text":"是有什么具体的数字可以跟国人报告一下吗杨代表报告委员我想日本跟韩国跟我们的情形不一样我们的投资模式是依照我们的经济发展产业结构跟业者的需求所定出来的至于金额的部分因为还在议定当中也不便细节对外宣布所以是不是要把我们科学园区"},{"start":5140.356,"end":5155.613,"text":"整個在美國再複製一個是這個概念嗎那如果這樣子的話除了台積電有多少的科學園區的廠商也要共同到美國去投資"},{"start":5157.148,"end":5178.797,"text":"報告委員 我們是說我們的內科學園區的經驗跟美國來交換意見協助我們的業者在當地能夠設立產業園區或是產業記錄不是把我們的科學園區搬到美國去我覺得這一部分跟委員做一個澄清那如果台積電去 整個供應鏈要不要去 部長"},{"start":5180.011,"end":5205.832,"text":"沒有啊 現在台積電的這個亞利桑那廠已經開始量產但是供應鏈還是沒有去啊很多都去了 很多都去了而且現在預估到美國投資的台灣廠商科技業而言就要他的對美的投資建一個廠比台灣的投資是要增加五到七倍"},{"start":5207.875,"end":5236.381,"text":"這個數字你們有沒有掌握應該沒有那麼高了沒有 你們掌握的沒那麼高是不是你們覺得沒有那麼高是不是那因為美國的生產的條件以及法令的這個跟台灣是有非常大的差異以及他們如何跟美國建立這樣子的一個就是說相關的能夠在台灣就是說有這樣相關的法令的"},{"start":5237.121,"end":5249.066,"text":"這個可及性在美國並沒有是不是這也就是為什麼我們要居獨居就是說台灣政府跟美國政府要有一個比較好的溝通沒有5到7倍 幾倍"},{"start":5251.301,"end":5277.753,"text":"那這個是企業界的秘密是啊 如果沒有到7倍還是幾倍這個要台積電來說明要台積電我們不方便是所有廠家這是它業者的秘密所以現在投資的金額還沒有還沒有確定嗎投資的 您說對美投資的金額你說台積電嗎不是楊代表楊代表楊代表有答案"},{"start":5279.246,"end":5293.779,"text":"報告委員我剛剛已經說明了我們現在的投資金額尚未議定在談判前不便對外說明因為我們要爭取對我業者最有利的條件所以還沒有確定還沒有確定那是不是"},{"start":5294.6,"end":5317.567,"text":"要以我們整個產硬鏈到美國去增加他們半導體的產出那請問我們是不是變成要幫美國的企業來培養就是他們的就是勞力勞動力在半導體相關製造的勞動力是不是這是不是談的條件之一"},{"start":5318.829,"end":5341.677,"text":"報告委員我們沒有答應美國說要幫他訓練技術人員我想業者他們在做投資的時候依照他們的需求但是但是美國如果要求台灣的企業到赴美投資的時候他其實有要求我們要用當地的勞動力是不是多大比例"},{"start":5344.03,"end":5350.753,"text":"沒有談這個但是從對外投資來講當然要用當地的勞工那我們是不是以這樣子就是對於美國半導體製造業技術人力的訓練代替了巨額的資金投入"},{"start":5364.768,"end":5391.103,"text":"因為你一個廠在那邊會不會一個廠在那邊要運作基本的這個人力上的這個基本條件還是要存在啊要不然他的廠沒有辦法運作啊對所以他們本身台積電就會有一些職能訓練但是現在目前就是說在建廠階段他仰賴的是我們台灣的就是說台積電的員工赴美去建廠那甚至開始投入量產嘛"},{"start":5392.183,"end":5409.077,"text":"那很多建廠的人員已經回來了有一些已經回來了部分啦部分啦那還是最大部分還是仰賴台灣的嗎那他們現在希望說我們能夠訓練這個相關的部分嗎那個葉主委知不知道"},{"start":5410.94,"end":5428.589,"text":"這個部分的話就台積電自己本身他會有自己的判斷因為畢竟就是說他整個廠在那邊營運的話那到底要怎樣去做人力的安排然後是不是有一些員工要送回來台灣那他們要求多大的比例在地員工這個我倒不清楚說有多大"},{"start":5428.789,"end":5447.97,"text":"所以如果我們不是超越日韓這樣子的投資金額是不是以我們目前來訓練當地的半導體生產的技術人員那來成為我們關稅談判的一個條件之一呢"},{"start":5450.011,"end":5465.536,"text":"這個應該不會是談判條件兩位代表都沒說你們兩個怎麼就在前面講報告委員他都是我們在副院長領導之下最好的談判夥伴所以他們兩個講的代表你們談判的內容嗎對 我們都一起的"},{"start":5466.016,"end":5492.53,"text":"所以代表你們談判內容嗎是不是他們剛剛已經表述了這個金額議定而且並沒有說訓練他的勞工室談判關稅減讓的一部分我們現在沒有談到這些好那我再問工部長就是目前我們對於關稅衝擊的這個四大措施就是外銷貸款的保證就是說保證加碼"},{"start":5493.922,"end":5508.832,"text":"那我發現加碼的荷寶只有10.8億還有中小微企業發展貸款加碼身貸是628件61.4億研發轉型865件那爭取海外訂單549件代表了我們過去認為因應關稅衝擊就是說創造出來的這些方案"},{"start":5524.523,"end":5533.434,"text":"目前為止好像效率乘數都不高是不是那是不是代表我們這些方案的作用呢"},{"start":5536.748,"end":5560.295,"text":"這樣加起來有兩千多件還是有很多那我們還是要加強宣導因為有些企業可能沒有收到這樣的訊息那所以我們為什麼要因為我們給他460億的特別預算的貸款身貸額度那是460億喔那他其實身貸的還沒有含就是說已經合則的身貸只有61億"},{"start":5563.477,"end":5581.669,"text":"這個執行期間要兩年多所以還有很多的時間可能需要直接經費好不是要一次就用完我再問一下楊代表一個事情好不好楊代表我們關稅什麼時候可以抵定你知道嗎財政部的出口數字都沒有辦法算"},{"start":5583.238,"end":5599.092,"text":"報告委員剛剛已經講了我們如果對等那個232這個供應鏈一談妥的話對等的貴稅率我們一定要調降而且不疊加我們會緊述的依照國人的所以我們期待的是232跟對等關稅一起談嗎"},{"start":5600.713,"end":5622.581,"text":"這個剛剛我在報告裡面有講美國的我的產業的結構非常特殊是因為半導體還有電子產品造成最大的逆差所以這是兩個協定是一起談的那一起談的情況下對於未來關稅可能下降的這樣的機率有多大你說一下"},{"start":5623.357,"end":5638.328,"text":"我想政府院長您對領導的團隊有信心我們一定要爭取往下對等條件而且要不疊加這對我們業者才有機率啊楊代表我問一下嘛機率有多高機率非常的高70%80%還是90%還是低於70%四個答案嘛選擇題"},{"start":5648.732,"end":5676.277,"text":"我想那個底線談判沒有經過核定的話我們不能講到100%但是這是我們最大的期盼我們也有很高的信心可以爭取那是70% 80%還是90%我還是不做這個比率的評斷機率啊機率啊這不是這不是那個機率嗎我沒有說你會100%嘛機率非常的高那是多少啊70%以上還以下"},{"start":5677.27,"end":5699.387,"text":"我們一定要爭取二三奧供應鏈最好的稅率之下我們才會結束這個談判所以這個談判一結束對等也會調降這是我們最大的期盼機率還是非常的高你都沒有講我跟你講現在全台灣所有的製造業所有的高科技所有都在等你們"},{"start":5701.549,"end":5715.446,"text":"連財政部政府部門所有明年的稅收預估的數字都沒有辦法出來耶因為不知道明年的出口如何啊是不是但在這個情況下你總要透露給大家一點點那個吧是不是"},{"start":5717.032,"end":5738.827,"text":"報告委員我還是要講機率真的非常高這是我們努力的目標因為任何一個協定沒有談完之後細項一公佈之後可能會影響到我們最好的結果所以我會跟委員報告我們會努力而且機率非常非常的高好 謝謝好 謝謝謝一鋒委員 謝謝我們接下來請鄭振前委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":5755.707,"end":5768.227,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下國發會葉俊賢主委然後經濟部工部長還有我們經貿談判辦公室的談判總代表楊珍妮謝謝好 我們請上位"},{"start":5776.151,"end":5797.126,"text":"首先我想先請教一下國發會主委這幾年就是台灣已經持續58個月生不如死就是新適合人口非常的少那各個產業都在缺工我想請教一下那個國發會主委你知道現在缺工的情況有多嚴重嗎缺工的情況的話我這邊有一個表大致上就是說"},{"start":5798.979,"end":5817.49,"text":"以那一個就是休息停班的這個部分來講的話比例比較高的會是在台中市這個部分OK 簡單回憶就好啦缺工情況應該肯定很嚴重對不對各行業幾乎都缺工對不對有一些啦但可能沒有委員講的那麼嚴重"},{"start":5818.548,"end":5836.063,"text":"你覺得那個物流業嚴不嚴重製造業嚴不嚴重服務業嚴不嚴重你覺得哪個產業不嚴重你告訴我都很重要哪個產業不缺工你告訴我都缺工嘛對不對高科技缺不缺工"},{"start":5837.519,"end":5863.071,"text":"也缺工嘛對不對高科技也缺工嘛對不對好那我想請教一下因為之前就是包括我們的行政院副院長也提到了就是說我們要幫川普來蓋一個美版竹科然後我們副總統也特別提到了這個台灣的半導體供應鏈要一起赴美我想請教一下我們經濟部長就是整個的"},{"start":5864.592,"end":5872.227,"text":"美版逐科這件事情我知道你們回過很多次你們都否認這件事情可是整個產業鏈要過去這件事情是確定的對不對"},{"start":5873.916,"end":5900.445,"text":"還是要看企業界他們的一些想法我剛才還是提到就是說第一個產業要對外投資一定是要貼近客戶有訂單然後而且會賺錢如果還達不到那樣的經濟規模他是不會出去的所以說其實整個半導體產業鏈其實非常的多台積電一家的協力廠商超過200家200家以上的一個供應鏈那現在之前在前部長的時候他那時候去參加那個"},{"start":5901.925,"end":5921.011,"text":"美國的一個商場的時候有將近200家的台灣廠商一起到美國去那他們也都表示要跟著台積電過去這件事情我想經濟部長應該不會不了解對不對那我想請教一下我們有沒有對於整個半導體產業 另外一對台灣整體經濟跟整個產業還有國安風險的一個評估"},{"start":5929.339,"end":5954.993,"text":"是有一個評估就是說它這樣的投資到底會對我們的影響是怎麼樣但是我們就是說為什麼要求廠商都要投資一定要國內的有相對投資好 那我問一下你講到這個點你剛剛也特別回應一件事情就是說台積電承諾到美國去投資1650億的時候它也會相應的在台灣擴大投資你剛剛是這麼回應對不對超過這個金額"},{"start":5956.494,"end":5975.292,"text":"超過這個金額我想請教一下我們台積電到美國去投資預計要分幾年投資完他早沒有壓時間不過他大概是應該是兩年或兩年多一個廠這樣子的速度所以預計大概會幾年的時候把這筆承諾投資完"},{"start":5982.27,"end":5998.644,"text":"如果啦 如果需求還是持續強烈的話那它會持續地蓋嘛平均兩年蓋一個廠的話那它會蓋六個廠嘛 差不多所以你說要十幾年才會投資完這1650億美元是是喔 OK 好在戰場的速度情況之下 對"},{"start":5999.384,"end":6014.433,"text":"但是在台灣的速度就很快因為台灣的蓋廠速度非常非常快好 我這邊要特別講一下因為按照台積電法說會的資料的時候今年台積電在台灣的一個投資金額大概420億美元在台灣的投資那麼表示說台積電在台灣的投資佔整個台灣2024年明目GDP7960億美元大概要佔5%多"},{"start":6029.202,"end":6047.996,"text":"這個金額其實非常的龐大所以台積電對於整個台灣的一個經濟成長肯定是具有非常帶動龍頭的一個效果部長這沒有問題吧是的那我們也看到一個情況就是說現在整個竹科 中科 南科它的一個"},{"start":6049.491,"end":6074.97,"text":"半導體的一個產業 機體電路的一個產值的時候整體來說佔了79.99% 將近八成台灣這個部分所以你看台積電對整個台灣的整個整體經濟的帶動有多大的一個影響所以我這邊的時候要特別提到一個事情就是說之前美國商務部長盧特尼克他特別提到說我們高階製程要跟"},{"start":6075.751,"end":6100.725,"text":"台灣跟美國五五分這件事情的時候我們經濟部這邊有沒有掌控到一些相關的訊息如果台灣的產能跟美國的產能要一樣高階製程五五分那是不可能的從現在的投資速度就可以看得出來落差越差越大所以說我這邊我要特別提到就整個台積電"},{"start":6102.466,"end":6124.662,"text":"的高階製程 佔它全球的一個市佔率到92%而且台積電高階製程佔它台積電整體營收的74%所以我們認為政府一定有責任要把台積電這邊在台灣這邊的鞏固更好更明確 這沒有問題啦OK那我最後我想請教一下那個楊代表"},{"start":6128.016,"end":6145.744,"text":"最近路透社有一個新聞說台美正在洽談培訓美國高科技人才的協議有沒有這件事情我想剛剛葉主委已經表明了我們沒有談到這一點也沒有這個協議所以路透社這個新聞是假訊息"},{"start":6147.066,"end":6159.339,"text":"那是他自己的報導我們沒有談這個你們沒有談這個訊息可是路透社報導的狀態所以你這邊覺得說路透社這個新聞是假訊息對不對報導不真實不是假訊息是什麼"},{"start":6160.749,"end":6187.498,"text":"還是說因為我發現我們的政府很多談判的一個資料都落後在整個媒體之外包括我們那時候20%的那個疊加的部分我們政府承認的速度也在媒體之後很多事情都是後來媒體報導之後我們後來證明媒體講的好像有這麼一回事那麼我想了解就是我們對於美國要求我們培訓美國高科技的這個協議沒有在談這件事情"},{"start":6188.118,"end":6206.339,"text":"是的沒有沒有談這件事情OK那我為什麼特別講這個狀態因為剛剛部長這邊有提到說就是很多台積電的工程師過去然後後來也會回來可是我這邊要特別講到一個情況是很多情況人才如果過去之後是回不來的所以"},{"start":6207.961,"end":6229.036,"text":"代表這邊如果說很明確跟我們講說路透社這個新聞是假訊息因為我們根本沒有在談這件事情那我再把這邊因為這個是路透社的一個英文版的原文他很清楚的這邊提到他說川普他希望說一些外籍勞工能夠扮演更積極的角色這邊的外籍勞工指的是台灣的勞工那如果說"},{"start":6230.697,"end":6257.555,"text":"代表覺得說這樣子的一個訊息是不真實的訊息的時候那我們是不是要做一個公開的一個澄清針對路透社這樣的新聞做一個澄清代表報告委員其實這邊報導最後他也引用到我們企業自己的內部訓練所以我覺得我們不去幫這個路透社他做任何的解釋但是我們有澄清這個不是在我們談判的條件之一OK"},{"start":6258.226,"end":6286.021,"text":"那因為說在整個談判過程當中我們看到很多情況就政府的公開資料一直都在整個媒體之後所以我們也希望就是所有的一個部分剛剛有委員提到說現在已經台美已經進到換聞的一個階段有到這個階段嗎代表我們進到最後的談判階段但是所有的底線要確定之後才能到換聞的階段了嗎"},{"start":6288.507,"end":6307.634,"text":"是说相关的条件在换文不是叫换文是在交换文件表示这些承诺就条件在交换就对了还不是正式的一个文本在交换对不对不是有关相关技术的议题有一些条件我们要澄清他也要了解在交换这些文件"},{"start":6308.291,"end":6325.979,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那我們希望整個台美的談判的時候能夠可以公開的部分盡量讓老百姓知道至少讓國會知道然後我覺得不要有很多的訊息像路透社這個信息出來之後的時候其實讓整個科學園區很多的產業"},{"start":6327.239,"end":6343.697,"text":"他們很擔心他們擔心台積電如果很多人到美國去幫美國培訓人才的時候那台積電會吸引其他台灣其他相關公司的人往台積電流動那台積電就會變成一個像美國書寫人才的一個供應站"},{"start":6344.358,"end":6364.762,"text":"那整個台灣的整個高科技的人才圈又會產生一個大地震所以我們希望這樣的事情不要發生然後工部長剛剛提到說我們對於整個半導體產業到美國去對整個台灣產業經濟國安的這種評估的時候之後可不可以本席一個很完整的資料謝謝好 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":6384.856,"end":6399.525,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請龔部長還有楊代表楊談判代表總談判代表這個美國川普對我們的國際的從4月2號開始然後4月5號宣布10%到32%"},{"start":6413.252,"end":6436.688,"text":"又到調降為20%都是疊加的疊加而且是暫時性稅率暫時性稅率如果我們從4月到現在這已經很久了從4月到現在現在已經是12月了所以還是叫暫時性這麼久還在叫暫時性"},{"start":6441.56,"end":6463.624,"text":"我們進一步編列了460億元的這個辦理支持產業這四大措施包括外銷貸款優惠保證加碼中小型中小微型企業多元發展貸款加碼研發轉型補助及增企海外訂單然後你們是要一流200億那這個所以"},{"start":6468.834,"end":6496.679,"text":"可以用的是260億目前這個現在已經編出來的就是460億那個200億是另外的還沒有送到立法院所以這460億目前執行的情形這個相關的這些企業產業還可以支持成效如何"},{"start":6497.709,"end":6526.354,"text":"目前来讲因为大概有2000多个申请案那我们积极的办理当中那同时我们北中南东赶快就是有一个说明会让更多的企业可以了解那我们也组了辅导团到也是北中南东到各地去做实质上的一些辅导实地辅导希望可以支持这些中小微或传统产业的一些发展以这个经济部的"},{"start":6527.937,"end":6555.628,"text":"了解經過我們這樣的經濟部這樣的一個透過預算包括說明包括各方面的這個目前就企業來講各方面他們的影響到底有沒有評估還是沒有什麼影響因為有了這些支持有了支持當然對他們還是有一些幫助那不過"},{"start":6556.858,"end":6578.549,"text":"就整個情勢上來講我們還是希望就是說那個20%的暫時性關稅可以往下降然後不疊加然後尤其是因為這些是對等關稅的項目還有並同232的一些項目那我們希望232的項目也可以得到這個優惠的待遇對 這個還是我們要努力的好 那個梁代表"},{"start":6584.057,"end":6609.716,"text":"剛剛 剛剛委員報告說我們現在還在暫時因為我們的這個談判比較特殊的是因為我們的貿易逆差都來自於半導體還有這些電子產品因為呢 美國要二三二也在進行二三二的調查所以在這個複雜性情況下我們當然要幫業者爭取最好的利益然後呢 能夠在對 二對等關稅能夠進行調漲以及不跌價"},{"start":6611.294,"end":6640.132,"text":"刚才你特别提到这个半导体我们不是很早就很早就跟他们跟美国谈而且也承诺要设厂了这样还没有办法还不能成为一个其他很多国家都定案了我们的有这么好的一个跟他们的一个沟通协调的这么好的产业"},{"start":6641.693,"end":6668.582,"text":"刚刚委员讲的应该是个别企业自己做的对外跟美国做的承诺那我们现在是讲政府对政府的谈判我谈的就是政府对政府对我谈的就是政府对政府抱歉政府对政府的谈判一定要涉及到232关税个别产业当我做了任何的承诺之后他可以有优惠的关税而不是给别的国家有优惠关税我们没有优惠关税"},{"start":6669.428,"end":6696.454,"text":"好請教楊代表我講的是政府對政府當然我們要把半導體列為當然不能公開但是半導體的產業去啦台積電去啦對不對他去之前後來也跟賴總統也見面了好我請教一下國防因為我們要善用我們自己很多的"},{"start":6698.706,"end":6705.487,"text":"這個資源我們就說國防我們從2015年3308億的國防預算一直成長到2025是7726億到2026是9495億然後賴總統最近又宣布他先跟美國報告"},{"start":6728.9,"end":6743.998,"text":"投書美國媒體喔1.25兆這個談判當然要包含我們所有可以提出來的要提出來沒有談嗎 沒有提嗎"},{"start":6747.496,"end":6772.678,"text":"这分两部分您刚刚讲到的国防的采购那个没有列在我们的进出口的统计资料那另外有关于赖总统在今年二月以及国庆的原告有再次强调为了增加我们的国防自卫能力我们有希望在2030年达到GTT3%美方并没有做任何的表述在谈判的过程中"},{"start":6774.929,"end":6801.787,"text":"那他们没有表述我们的代表谈判代表有没有表述我们是跟他表明说总统有这样的表明增加我们的自卫防卫能力自主的防卫能力我们的国防支出会达到GDP3%我说美方并没有表述是这个题目并不是纳在我们谈判的要件之一"},{"start":6802.335,"end":6825.214,"text":"不管有沒有談判就是能講的能說的對美國有很多的一個支持協助的都要說出來就如同我剛講的現在的美國官員不見得知道2015年的國防預算我們的國防預算是多少"},{"start":6827.168,"end":6854.642,"text":"你要讓他知道原來是這麼多因為現在他們官員也是剛上任的所以這個部分包括你今天提的這個報告裡面有提到這個要送交國會對不對我剛剛為什麼要講從4月到現在這麼久了結果他一直暫時信他就不用一直送國會不用送立法院"},{"start":6855.675,"end":6876.167,"text":"這個也是一個談判的各種是要講的都要講這樣知道嗎我的建議 我只能建議我們任何的說明都會跟美方做說明對不對 一直暫時性都不用送立法院對不對 一直送暫時性到明年後年"},{"start":6877.925,"end":6898.814,"text":"因為我們還在繼續希望暫時性的稅率要調降所以我們跟立法院要做說明各種對我們必須要有幫助的都要把它提好不好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請張旭凱委員請做詢問"},{"start":6922.819,"end":6925.082,"text":"謝謝 請阿公部長跟總談判代表請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":6933.019,"end":6960.928,"text":"張委員好 你們兩個好 我剛才可以看你們在答詢立委的這個剛剛的時候 蒙點頭的時候會有好消息 很期待喔 好不好快定案了 希望在這個降關稅方面是真的會可以達成你們剛剛講的這個可是我要問更具體的更具體的 很多民眾直接很關心的馬上定案了美國進口我們這邊的汽車啊這只是一個重要談判的議題嘛 對不對 總代表"},{"start":6962.82,"end":6984.085,"text":"關稅 美國的這個車子進來會是低關稅 甚至零關稅進來嗎報告委員 任何一個項目都是在我們關稅談判裡面但是因為還沒有達到最後的協議我們還是不便對委員報告到底有降到多少會降 降多少還不知道是不是"},{"start":6985.198,"end":6991.584,"text":"這個我還是表述任何一個協議在沒有簽訂之前任何一個項目都會被變動還有可能變動 可是有討論那那個農民非常關心農產品"},{"start":6999.868,"end":7024.606,"text":"我想刚刚我报告美国确实是以贸易优先的时候以它的农产品的出口它要求各国都应该大幅度的要调降农产品跟工业产品关税但是我们还是基于国家产业的利益粮食安全国民的健康都会争取我们最有利的条件我们在争取可是是会降的吗例如说八卦稻米的关税会不会降或者量会不会增加"},{"start":7025.726,"end":7045.455,"text":"我剛有報告有些產業是基於國家產業的利益糧食的安全國民的健康我們會力爭要求要保留我剛去美國國會外交回來有一個很重要的內幕他們那邊很多的這個官員跟議員再問一個就是中油"},{"start":7047.308,"end":7065.789,"text":"對阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的採購跟這個投資那邊回來一個訊息第一個很重要非常非常重要就是川普總統非常注意他的進度第二個我得到消息是最近好像我們簽了意向書之後這個投資好像有點停擺是不是"},{"start":7069.093,"end":7095.831,"text":"目前有什麼進度嗎在談的這個過程是不是有點上次投了一項書上次我問了前任的經濟部長他說我們對美國的這個天然氣採購會增加大概兩倍目前所有我們對天然氣採購美國是上百分之十現在會提高到百分之三十可是另外比較嚴重的比較重大要討論的是那些重大投資嘛你說管線對不對這些管線那美國那邊的消息是說好像最近有點一項書簽了之後有點停滯是吧"},{"start":7096.69,"end":7121.26,"text":"因為那個雙方還是持續在討論當中那因為他的這個Business Plan就是BPR他如果寫得更完整的話那我們就評估的會更具體我提出兩個重點第一個川普我很注意這個事情第二個進度不要停下來要趕快去討論但第一個我們的優先是什麼價格天然氣的價格可以買多可是要降那第二個如果去投資的話"},{"start":7122.381,"end":7141.057,"text":"我剛剛有提嘛 如果南韓跟日本都不要 我們就不能去啦那如果真的 例如說可能管線 或者是挖這個挖的這個過程 開採這個過程我們可以投資 可是這個一定要一定的回收 好不好進度要跟上 好不好另外我來問一下那個那個總代表你們請回"},{"start":7143.274,"end":7163.013,"text":"那個最近很多人說可能是一個好消息就是河山的這個重啟可是這兩天發生一個 我跟你講要不要做環評的事情 他們說環境部部長啊把球踢回來 踢皮球說要你先去做這個政策評估經濟部可能針對這個河山重啟做政策評估嗎"},{"start":7164.515,"end":7184.286,"text":"包委員經濟部施政或行政單位都是依法行政那我們為什麼可以核三開始啟動自我評估那就是因為有核管法的修正以後辦法也改了我們有這樣的依據嘛那但是按照環評法目前的要求並沒有要求"},{"start":7186.169,"end":7206.862,"text":"這樣的情勢需要做重新環評並沒有這樣的要求所以環評沒有需要重新做對 但是如果將來環評法改變了那我們當然只能遵守那現在環境部直接先講說要你做政策評估那照目前規定也不需要嗎理論上我們的了解 我們的解讀環評法是沒有這樣的要求目前沒有需要對 不需要政策評估也不需要環境評估 對不對"},{"start":7207.682,"end":7232.263,"text":"好來現在好消息是因為你27號你核定了台電的這個台電他的報告裡面他評估說核二核三具有再運轉的可行性那3月份你這個報告要送到核安位去現在兩個很重要的事情現在很多人在講會不會是拖延好消息是說好像看起來到2027年大概一年半以後就有可能再重啟核三可是很多人在問兩個問題"},{"start":7233.604,"end":7261.932,"text":"一個不要拖延不要拖延太久不會不會報告委員這個因為有兩個再運轉計畫提出來以後提給何安慧她會給我們看我們再運轉計畫去做另外一個是自主的自主的安全檢查那個會持續並行但是不會不會拖延不會不要讓人家外界覺得說打假球所以進度要跟上我具體的我具體這樣提來來來那個文森在現場你們現在做這個自主的這個安全"},{"start":7264.041,"end":7288.013,"text":"對不對 需要一年半時間現在很多專家學者提了一個非常重要的包括艾光中 艾教授他們都提了你們這個自主的這個安檢是不是就依照美國NRC所規定的LRA就是所謂的執照更新評估報告做的我們用的都是美國標準嘛 對不對跟委員報告 全世界的核安規則都是依照當國自己所建立的標準"},{"start":7289.994,"end":7316.926,"text":"我们用的是美国标准嘛对不对我要说我们follow的是我们核安会提出来的标准那这一次提出来因为我们是重启所以我们除了这些相关的规范就是研译的标准之外还有一些重启相关的工作那核安会多了一个要求就是我们必须提再运转计划就是你机组是不是能够恢复到"},{"start":7317.846,"end":7334.656,"text":"執照結束前的狀況所以它對於人員編制機組有沒有被拆除等等相關計畫我們必須做說明這是第一段第二段它在後段的安全檢查也提出了新增的一些規範包括輻射相關的議題以及耐震"},{"start":7335.856,"end":7354.389,"text":"的議題等等這兩個我想說您都有把它給mark出來不是 你講應該都是美國那個LLR他們本身的規範裡面那個他們的規範是前面那三項就是基本上基礎設備的老化相關的一些安全分析它有不同因為台灣是license到齊"},{"start":7355.47,"end":7372.352,"text":"重啟所以 核安會在訂定標準的時候增加了一些項目如果有符合他們的因為如果機照我可不可以跟您簡單報告一個Benchmark就是核一的自我安全檢查事實上是做過的核一的自我安全檢查做了四年"},{"start":7373.983,"end":7394.909,"text":"我就直接跟您報告就是說我們最近這一段時間一直聽到說我們要故意拖延等等我其實完全不知道說因為講的都是專家可是合一的自我安全檢查就做了四年我們現在提出來的時間是比這個還短的所以我完全無法理解說為什麼會講說台電要故意拖延"},{"start":7395.669,"end":7425.198,"text":"無法理解我們可以很具體的很具體的盡快往這個時程往前所以我剛講了嘛你如果用LRA這個標準聽我講完你不要急著講話好不好時間有限第一個你如果照美國這套標準你本來2025年開始就有持續在做嘛就像你剛講的前三項那你就前三項先按照那個標準就不要再不要再不要讓那個時間往後延了另外呢來來等一下喔另外李秉立教授啊做了一個圖表來給大家看一下你剛講的那個講說前三項ABC這個都是有的"},{"start":7426.488,"end":7454.88,"text":"事項啊林秉林教授特別提這個觀點既然你河山要重啟要經過這麼多的這個過程他說很多地方已經做過了或者可以同時做的可以平行做的就盡快好不好你參考一下你給我一個報告就好你現在不用急著打你回去看這幾項有很多專家協議認為可以平行做不要做完A再做B再做C他可以平行做就盡快時間就可以盡快另外呢你看一下裡面一個最關鍵的就是1燃料棒的採購"},{"start":7457.025,"end":7483.496,"text":"燃料棒採購如果整個全部都做完以後再去買就太晚了 我給你看一個例子來美國的這個帕西迪斯帕西迪斯最近美國政府提供他15.2億的美金貸款後來企業裡面怎麼訂就是說你包括訂過新的燃料棒都要先買我們當初核四也是先買 對不對所以包括燃料棒可以考慮一下 好不好"},{"start":7484.963,"end":7506.006,"text":"那個跟委員報告現在舉的國外的例子基本上我們都剪一段一段再講人家的計畫人家這一個電廠是之前已經開始做已經做完LRA審查了後來他沒有繼續研議後來想一想又想說好那我來研議好了那個完全就是沒有相同基礎的事"},{"start":7507.233,"end":7524.98,"text":"拿來做比喻我們是沒有辦法這個完全是不同的事情怎麼可能是來比較我希望說委員我們要提這些案例都OK但是把它的基礎跟前提拿出來做過對比就是基礎跟前提要一樣才能夠去講這件事但如果您提到"},{"start":7525.72,"end":7541.952,"text":"沒有你剛講的我先說每個項目平行調查我們本來就在平行調查他說你這個每個步驟都要做對不對有沒有可能如果可以平行先做的就先做第二個如果是LRA你剛講的你2005年某部已經做的就盡快"},{"start":7545.348,"end":7571.767,"text":"這個很理性啊怎麼會有這個問題平行調查本來就是平行調查對就是平行進行啦你們平行在做嘛所以OK啦這是OK的啦現在因為我們極力在發展這個半導體跟AI你連回答都要來啦那你每年經濟部也評估過每年我們的電力現在都成長可能3到5%我們現在極其要電嘛而且要低廉便利的電嘛所以核三核二你們既然有好消息了就儘快好不好不要讓外面接著說打假酒或者拖延好不好儘快好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7580.531,"end":7601.637,"text":"好 謝謝其他委員 謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答主席好首先有請經濟部長跟台電的總市長"},{"start":7611.292,"end":7628.557,"text":"陳偉業 早港部長早我記得郭部長當經濟部長的時候他的口氣不怎麼穩我問他電力不夠了怎麼辦他說要先進的核電機制我們台電我們才會採用"},{"start":7630.197,"end":7657.308,"text":"我現在想一個問題很奇怪當初反核的包括你鞏部長包括你曾董事長都是當初反核的現在怎麼又要開放原來的核電廠核二核三我常常你們講的做一套 收一套沒有準備先是自己的紙張現在你們在反水你們有沒有對自己的良心交代一下"},{"start":7658.39,"end":7674.596,"text":"因為這個經歷的事實我們都經歷過反風車的時候也在你們時代產生的反核也在你們執政的時候產生的今天這個國民黨就說了替你們去開這一條路你們的政策不是很正確嗎"},{"start":7676.297,"end":7694.246,"text":"所以我一直在想我們啊你們當政務官的一定要好好想我們的未來我們的前瞻在哪裡事情已經發生了已經給大家過了這麼久都忘了當初反俄化反風車的時候有多嚴重啊"},{"start":7695.247,"end":7706.352,"text":"好不好 檢討一下啦不要說這樣悄悄呼呼過去大家都不瞭解沒有經過這樣的事實法委員 我可以講一下嗎可以啊 可以講一下仔細的時間給我長一點我就給你講一下"},{"start":7709.997,"end":7730.858,"text":"因為行政部門還是依法行政後面有加一句話你聽不懂國民黨真笨當初環境基本法也是大院當初環境基本法的非核也是大院通過的我們就按照那時候只要電力能用在我們台灣產業的發展我都支持啦"},{"start":7731.178,"end":7756.609,"text":"意識形態不要那麼重就好啦還是要尊重立法院 立法院定的法我跟妳講 妳不敢去衝就好不然妳管不著 郭部長說他要支持核電 我說你管要不要做我是愛護你們才問這個問題的好 謝謝 董事長請回座 部長那現在我們行政院經貿談判室我們的楊總談判台表你先請回座 郭部長"},{"start":7762.274,"end":7785.339,"text":"韓總好好久不見了看你氣色越來越好你又帶著微笑那你這次談判最主要就是對等關稅20%還有要暫緩那個原來的關稅對不對20%你們希望降到像日本韓國的15%一樣對不對我們希望稅率要繼續調降"},{"start":7790.223,"end":7803.964,"text":"還有嘉義的研究 因為它是半導體資通的產業都在這個地方我們90%的資操也在這幾個行業裡面好久沒有看到你"},{"start":7804.85,"end":7830.502,"text":"我會說我們的政府很奇怪奇怪在哪裡呢我們的經濟部長我們國發會的葉執委以前的劉執委 郭執委你們在談判的時候都不曉得到今天兩個經濟部還有掌管我們財經大機的國發會裡面都不曉得那你這次回來終於又見到你了有沒有帶來什麼好消息"},{"start":7831.837,"end":7858.988,"text":"委员好 首先跟委员澄清这个谈判团队在第一次4月开始的时候就有对外宣布由政府院长领军 经贸谈判办公室经济部 外交部 国防部经济部 外交部 农业部说什么要公开的都没有公开往好的往坏的给我放心一下因为你今天第一次来让我们真正到底我们要谈判的是往良性发展"},{"start":7859.887,"end":7885.148,"text":"往正面发展我们是在往正面发展跟美方争取最后能够得到最好的税率外面的报纸大概我们是在日本跟韩国那日本的话投资的时候要5500亿美元等于17.3兆韩国是3500亿美元那以韩国的话投资3500亿美元是占我们GDP的14%"},{"start":7887.089,"end":7910.683,"text":"如果依照日本的話5500億美元是佔了69%那到底你們現在外面的新聞我們是要很緊張的你們做官的人量量啊現在每一個中小企業大家都在看你這個消息談判的怎麼樣看你這個政府有沒有夠力有沒有很有資源的跟美國談判到底我們的金額多少"},{"start":7911.698,"end":7940.209,"text":"好委員跟您報告一下我們在做這個台灣模式的談判是依照我們產業的結構經濟發展最重要我們都有跟業者溝通諮詢過所以我們的模式不跟日本韓國一樣是按照我們國內的需求大概我們投資的金額要多少我想不到最後的談判結論終點我們大概不會對外宣布這個數字我現在跟你說談到台灣模式"},{"start":7941.314,"end":7969.885,"text":"你們是到底是打世界盃還是在掏空台灣出賣台灣絕對不是掏空台灣你們每一個官員都講我們要打世界盃其實憂心忡忡我們不是聽官方的報告我們是天下之憂而憂後天下之樂而樂其實這裡面的陷阱大概很多那我請教你這個可能部長比較曉得你在旁邊一下我們是老朋友"},{"start":7972.133,"end":7995.653,"text":"部長再請工部長你看美國的川普總統跟輝達的黃人輝董事長兩個我們在美國第一次最高階的晶片在美國生產出來的我現在提醒時間快要到了"},{"start":7996.687,"end":8020.961,"text":"川普总统讲50%的才能要在美国50%的才能会在台湾或者世界各地您常不常说美国霸权主义您不晓得他当然每一个人为他国土的国安的问题费五十五十你台湾要存什么"},{"start":8021.952,"end":8047.608,"text":"還有第二件事情發生沒有問題拿不走政治有什麼拿不走的叫你拿乖乖拿台積電日本把台積電的機師出去結果那家公司的拿那個資料公司老闆是Rapids的董事還是董事長"},{"start":8049.127,"end":8074.049,"text":"日本已經先進他二耐米製作成功明年就要正式生產咱大家洋洋得意再來咱台軍的那個樓前副總到英特爾去你們都不敢發聲我不知道那個政府安裝那麼縱容美國的經濟間諜日本的經濟間諜"},{"start":8076.581,"end":8101.73,"text":"你拿過來我都曉得你們在辦在檢查單位在辦這個非常危險的徵兆你把資金拿過去你把產業鏈帶過去你把人才帶過去台灣剩下什麼美國川普總統還一句話要求台灣的電子產業要替美國培訓技術人員"},{"start":8103.682,"end":8131.036,"text":"你整碗紅螃蟻你還在說我打世界盃我們自己本不老體啊 你算什麼台灣如果以現在的政治地位不是說我們在批評啊其實我們搖一搖 兩邊都要震動啊為什麼你們腿那麼軟 那很害我不希望台灣的產業在你們執政黨的時代把這整個掏空掉"},{"start":8132.701,"end":8157.111,"text":"臺灣村的危險從2016年開始這個臺商投資臺灣是大幅的增加投資臺灣你是大幅的增加當然既是在這邊現在大幅的增加但是以後拿過去的話要怎樣大幅增加還是持續大幅增加照目前的規劃不是投資你講的現在大幅增加馬上就大幅的減少了不會啦什麼不會"},{"start":8158.231,"end":8170.741,"text":"按照台積電的規劃你現在要去美國找資料 跟銀行借錢給你們那整個錢就走了 不會來這裡在台灣你找資料 美國那裡50%不夠人用尤其那個產業園 還有那個台灣模式好壞都要看 不要說沒有關係"},{"start":8183.08,"end":8184.14,"text":"我們接下來請賴樂仁委員請做巡查 謝謝"},{"start":8215.052,"end":8217.715,"text":"好 謝謝趙薇 請拱部長我們再請拱部長 謝謝部長好 部長"},{"start":8227.766,"end":8244.033,"text":"我先請教一下總統有宣布了在未來8年要規劃推出1.25兆的國防特別預算那打造台灣之盾那這個如果從經濟或者產業面的角度來看的話部長怎麼看這對台灣的幫助"},{"start":8245.566,"end":8260.581,"text":"是 因為現在照我們的了解就是說國安部是有一些裡面的金額他會釋出給國內的廠商 市商或者是說委託國內廠商製造這個都有"},{"start":8261.121,"end":8279.386,"text":"那他們也估計一個數字出來當然將近有可能有4千他們規劃了4千億的產值創造9萬個就業機會這個經濟部也認同這樣的數字嗎也認可這樣的數字嗎我們大家有看過雙方有check過所以有對過了所以基本上會創造出這樣的產值跟這樣的就業機會對"},{"start":8281.006,"end":8304.753,"text":"那我直接請教除了當然這樣的經費除了跟採購以外的立即性的一些防衛性的不對稱的武力以外哪些的部分是會投入在我們國內的產業就是1.25兆裡面大概有多少的金額會是投入在國內的產業讓我們產業的更提升同時間跟其他世界各國更多的合作跟研發的"},{"start":8305.726,"end":8324.178,"text":"因為至少就我們經濟部來講的話大概整個國防產業鎖定在幾個項目包括現在大家比較關心的是無人載具包括無人機無人船的部分那甚至於還有地面上的我們先從機器狗開始那這個都可能"},{"start":8324.938,"end":8344.649,"text":"不管是軍事上用途也好那大概總額會是多少就經濟部的粗估這樣的1.25兆裡面大概有多少會落在直接投入到國內的產業因為這個對於台灣很多產業很重要 包括按照這個國防部的估算來講的話它這個4千億裡面大部分就是從國內採購而來的這個4千億是創造出4千億的一個產值"},{"start":8349.696,"end":8365.054,"text":"所以部長的意思是1.25兆裡面有4000億大概是投入到國內的這一塊是這樣嗎大致上是這樣所以創造出9萬個就業機會所以部長的認知跟理解是這樣子的"},{"start":8365.615,"end":8385.897,"text":"OK好那我們來看因為其實這些部分其實對台灣的這些很重要特別是很多的涉及到船產涉及到我們的一些軍工的產業甚至很多各方面的產業也能夠藉這樣機會的時候更加的升級然後同時增加研發能量同時也能夠跟國際更加同步未來甚至有機會提升能力後更多的外銷"},{"start":8386.838,"end":8406.006,"text":"的市場打出去啦我覺得這也是一個很重要的一個所以我也期盼這樣的預算能夠得到立法院支持啦不是只站在採購而已其實它裡面還有涉及到很多是我們國內的自己提升我們本土的一些能量的部分那我再具體的問啦裡面有涉及到無人機的部分這個部分預計是要投入132億"},{"start":8407.887,"end":8421.627,"text":"然後看起來的話在幾位幾個包括台船 包括漢翔幾個大的都會有得到更多的一些訂單來投入到這樣的研發跟投入合作當中是嗎這個132億是我們補助跟支持這個"},{"start":8423.436,"end":8443.455,"text":"生產端他們有這樣的生產能力以後可以拿到國安部的訂單那個就是他的這個他的銷售額可以增加這個是我們去支持所以這個部分是由經濟部來挹注支持他們的然後接下來他們還可以再取得更多1.25兆的這樣的預算的規模來取得"},{"start":8444.136,"end":8470.462,"text":"他們的這個影響可以增加我想這個對於中南部的很多的產業很重要啦不管是船廠或者一些我們的技術產業這個非常重要啦因為唯有我們讓我們的無人機無人船能夠有更強的實力這個也是現在國際的趨勢啦透過無人機無人船那台灣如果在這一方面能力更加強大的時候其實我們就有能力甚至於外銷出去啦漢翔不知道在台中在高雄都有台船在高雄啦"},{"start":8470.962,"end":8485.678,"text":"那包括像航太跟船舶的部分所以投入27億這也是經濟部這邊協助來投入但是未來會有更多機會來接到整個國防部1.25兆的訂單對 有一部分是這樣甚至於有一部分是可以拿到國外的訂單"},{"start":8486.779,"end":8500.772,"text":"就是說它的次系統比如說漢翔的部分它可能也跟Airbus可能有一些聯繫還有國外的廠商它也可以拿到有關於次系統或零組件的部分那也可以帶動漢翔它下面的供應鏈"},{"start":8502.733,"end":8527.046,"text":"這個對我們的航太產業對我們的造船產業都有相當大的幫助啦特別很多的幾乎都是座落在中南部啦甚至於像台船、中信等等這個都在高雄就變成它會有更強的能量去強化出研發這些無人載具的能力那無人載具能力以後將來它會形成我們的產業可以賣到世界各國去像中信跟隆德他們接到國外的這些"},{"start":8527.606,"end":8548.748,"text":"比较中型的这个巡逻舰也是因为国内他拿到国内过去给他的订单他有那样的实际经验以后而且实际表现很好那也才可以拿到国外的订单所以1.25兆这个台湾之盾的计划不只是强化我们的防卫性不对称的军力同时间其实对我们的产业也会有相当大的一个帮助是的 是的"},{"start":8548.988,"end":8569.21,"text":"而且甚至可以讓我們更加升級對我們的傳產對我們的基礎產業也會有很大的幫助所以我們希望經濟部這一塊多支持那另外也多對外去做說明讓大家更清楚知道這個錢其實對國家是一個重要的支出它是一個投資它對於整個未來我們的這些國防產業會有更大的一個注意"},{"start":8569.81,"end":8591.782,"text":"是 好 那我再請教一下像機械狗 像衛星的這個部分這個部分經濟部也會投入更多的資源去協助嗎是的 機械狗因為它現在算是一個雛形那公務員在幫忙做這個系統整合跟整機那我們希望到年底可以有階段性的一個成果那慢慢才優化它的一些能量跟能力出來"},{"start":8592.822,"end":8618.472,"text":"那衛星的部分是我台南比較擅長的還是在這個地面接收的部分那不過現在我們也希望就是說那個衛星本體那個籌載的部分我們也可以趕快發展出來那有了衛星籌載跟地面接收以後它就可以做一些通訊上的設施那可以發展起來把這些solution事實上跟國際的供應鏈連結起來尤其是飛虹供應鏈的部分"},{"start":8619.772,"end":8641.438,"text":"對裡面涉及到很多飛鴻工藝鏈那這也是台灣的機會當然全世界各國都在推動飛鴻工藝鏈的時候我們也是一個很好的機會可以去拿到這塊市場所以我也希望經濟部加大在這五大產業特別是後面的前幾個相對上比較成熟一些那後面的機械狗跟衛星其實我們有些基礎在的那我們可以"},{"start":8641.838,"end":8657.303,"text":"加大那個力道的話就有機會讓我們進入到國際的一些市場我也希望經濟部站在你們所屬上面加大對於這個力道那特別這些很多都是在中南部啦對很多都在中南部我也希望讓這些特別是我們講到這一次的台美的關稅的問題的時候"},{"start":8658.863,"end":8682.572,"text":"對於這些船產對這些技術產業他們有很多的憂心的時候那政府也透過這樣的機會給予他們更多的支持讓他們能夠在這一波的之中能夠再升級再轉型甚至再提升他們的研發能力再跟國際更多的接軌我認為這個都會是我們照顧到我們的船產照顧我們的技術產業很重要的一環好不好 請部長持續來大力推動是的 是的好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":8691.478,"end":8712.629,"text":"現在我們請邱志偉委員執行好 謝謝陳昭明主席第一位請教經貿談判辦楊總談判代表"},{"start":8722.317,"end":8736.885,"text":"委員好總參議員辛苦了這一年來可能最辛苦的就是您了率領各部會的談判團隊對美國的談判是非常辛苦的那過程中我覺得是你最關鍵的角色"},{"start":8738.123,"end":8751.892,"text":"就是說你們有個評估報告包括經濟部跟這個這個國會都提到如果排除關稅後面清單跟232項目如果對等關稅由32變成20%對我出口產值GDP就業的影響會減緩約五成請問這個是哪一個智庫做的報告"},{"start":8762.3,"end":8782.885,"text":"首先報告委員這個整個談判最辛苦的應該是院長跟副院長領進的團隊所以這個報告應該是哪一個報告中經院跟台經院到底有幾個智庫做的報告兩個中經院跟台經院是不是可以提供智庫的報告我們參考一下而且你的數據應該很精確"},{"start":8785.489,"end":8813.09,"text":"約減緩約五成對約減緩約五成那到底對哪些產業對AI當然AI這個這個半導體可能影響不大對傳統產業傳統產業向下的很多這個不同的產業它影響有多大這些報告裡面智庫報告有沒有都有沒有提到這個請是不是中經院跟這個台經院的報告評估報告是不是可以提供給報告委員我剛剛請示龔部長因為他當行政秘書長的時候做的他說可以提供"},{"start":8813.902,"end":8823.377,"text":"沒有問題嗎 那個國務長對 我們也要了解一下說他做的評估的基礎是怎麼樣來 國發會那個也一起來好了 國發會的主委"},{"start":8834.278,"end":8854.53,"text":"這個葉主委您的報告裡面提到說對這個臺美對臺灣蘇美主要工業產品大部分是這個半導體跟伺服器這些對20%的這個債券性關稅影響比較低那比較影響大的就是說包括工具機器械汽車零組件等等就屬於傳統產業的領域我給你看一張圖"},{"start":8859.069,"end":8885.642,"text":"這個你看這個今年的股價變化年初到現在紅色的全部都是AI半導體藍色的全部船船那這一次這個台美貿易談判不管是你維持在20還是往下降維持在20還是一樣比現在更差因為其他的主要貿易對手國是15%嘛對不對所以我們重點不是在AI跟半導體我們不會受到關稅太大的影響而是受到最大影響是傳統產業"},{"start":8888.687,"end":8914.685,"text":"這個必須要對每一個產業都要很精確的評估好 這個您提出這個問題我要請您就針對傳統產業怎麼樣去振興 價值化要提出一個完整的國家戰略不讓他們自生自滅而且我覺得經濟部所提出的相關的這些補貼什麼我覺得對他們而言是於事無補最主要是怎麼樣轉型就是怎麼樣升級"},{"start":8916.516,"end":8936.631,"text":"有跟委員報告這個也是為什麼我們要開始推所謂的AI新四大建設這個部分我知道我們那麼多時間改天再跟你請教主委先請回我繼續請教楊總長我一直對你的報告我鑽研很多時間美方追求的很具體"},{"start":8937.864,"end":8964.054,"text":"它要增加農工產品出口對不對對 進股貸對 要建立公平的負荷環境第三個要實現環境領域的再工業化這三點都進股貸好 請教一下美國要求增加農工產品主要目的是要平衡貿易逆差對不對是的好 它有沒有具體提出哪些項目有提出哪些具體的金額請您回答"},{"start":8965.355,"end":8987.988,"text":"報告委員 我想美國跟各國談為了要平衡貿易都表示希望絕大部分的農工產品都能夠降稅所以我們就是記憶這個原則在跟美方協商的我的問題很簡單 還有沒有具體提出哪些項目具體的金額一般談判應該會有大概相關的項目跟金額出來吧"},{"start":8988.508,"end":9003.222,"text":"我想在談判過程中 大家交換意見的時候會提出來但是因為還沒到公佈的階段所以我們現在沒有跟 在大院這邊跟您報告好 另外提出這個關鍵領域的再工業化"},{"start":9004.164,"end":9026.176,"text":"您能不能说明更清楚一下什么叫关键领域的再工业化它的关键产业最重要希望它再工业化对台湾来讲最重要就是半导体因为我们的出口百分之七贸易印差百分之九成都是在半导体自动性产品跟电阻铃组件所以它希望在这一方的产业它能够建立那台湾可以扮演什么角色呢"},{"start":9027.216,"end":9052.575,"text":"他希望台湾扮演什么角色或提供什么样的协助他关键产业的再工业化他希望我们在不管是在半导体或是电子零组件自动性产品能够再建立他们跟我们的产业的共同的共荣的合作然后高科技产业继续发展之所以担任台湾代表之所以成功我赞许你就是你把具体的都讲得很抽象"},{"start":9055.305,"end":9075.979,"text":"板抽象講的都很專業謝謝委員 因為現在談判還沒到終點我覺得一個談判代表應該要有這種基本功夫好 接著非寬稅的部分包括美規車准入 農產品標準等等這些都有達到相關的協議了嗎"},{"start":9080.365,"end":9105.61,"text":"這邊具體上大部分技術性議題都有抵定還是還有期間應該大部分都抵定了 這是院長也說了所以我們只是在做文件一些技術性最後的磋商好技術性磋商你這邊寫大致完成再做文件交換對不對然後達成文件交換過程之後最後總結會議那會不會拖到明年"},{"start":9107.421,"end":9125.492,"text":"我們希望這個時間的壓力確實是談判你們設定一個時間點我們希望快速的把它結束但是一定要得到好的結果才能結束非常抽象我這個不追問你了就是也許會拖到明年"},{"start":9126.832,"end":9139.76,"text":"我觉得我们会努力希望在今年把它结束但是一定要达成好的结论对我业者有交代才会结束对产业界有帮助对台湾竞争力有帮助好最后一个比较重点是说"},{"start":9141.328,"end":9165.579,"text":"你在第一次台美私底說上的時候我們已經跟美方表達我們有國會保留法律條款對不對是審核我們協議文本要送交立法院來審議喔對好何謂審議審議是可以針對文本這協議的內容做修改調整還是你相關你就是可以要接受還是要退回"},{"start":9168.038,"end":9192.31,"text":"你們做過相關的沙盤推演現在國會結構你理解嗎我們理解我們也有做一些沙盤推演但是我相信如果我們爭取到是對臺灣最有利合理的條件不管是在對等不管是在232我們希望大院都能夠支持要達到國會共識啊這個這件事最為困難的一次"},{"start":9193.05,"end":9217.245,"text":"在國會達成共識通常是這個執政長提出的相關的協議文本或者什麼內容通常以過去這個兩年的經驗來看要不過的機會蠻大的所以你要碰到國會這一關我是非常憂心你跟美國談判的這個協議文本很完整你們也認為對台灣產業是有幫助的確保國家利益"},{"start":9218.479,"end":9231.745,"text":"如果國會是審議不是被查國會審議他是有權利修改協議的內容還是他如果萬一退回不接受你這個台美協議的這個內容的話談判辦公室 經濟部 國會怎麼去應應我順便請教一下那個國務部長跟這個諸位"},{"start":9242.373,"end":9265.743,"text":"我想在龔部長主委回答之前我們希望你剛說的情形不會發生因為對台灣非常重要美國是我們重要的經貿夥伴我也不希望發生但是如果萬一發生的時候呢我提醒你喔很有可能會發生那如果萬一發生的時候你們有沒有因應之道呢我想我們內部會做這個沙盤推演"},{"start":9273.337,"end":9298.532,"text":"這個是很大的問題啊如果在國會沒有辦法通過我們辛苦談判出來的協議文件文本那對美國要怎麼樣去溝通說明主席稍微再給我30秒再請教一下廣布長跟這個葉主委廣布長跟葉主委我剛提到的問題送交國會審議的問題如果國會"},{"start":9302.611,"end":9330.338,"text":"好 如果不修改如果修改 是不是可以修改還是整本退回或者接受你們有沒有針對這些情境做過沙盤推演 國務長我們盡量說服為什麼剛剛楊總談判代表會跟美國一直談判說一剛開始就跟美國人講說我們國會有這樣審查權所以讓美國人知道說很多的要求要美國人心理的準備嗎"},{"start":9331.298,"end":9360.388,"text":"很多的不是很多的要求必須要讓這個會期是預算會期現在預算都還沒有付尾你知道嗎所有我們答應的條件也要讓這個國會可以接受跟通過才有可能性在10秒鐘在多少在10秒鐘那個葉主委我的看法跟那個國務部長的看法一樣就是全力去溝通希望國會可以通過祝福你們"},{"start":9361.584,"end":9382.33,"text":"先由臺灣現在我們請楊瓊英委員執行謝主席 楊瓊英發言首先邀請這個楊總代表"},{"start":9390.581,"end":9400.916,"text":"總代表我們根據媒體的報導11月27號那10月份日本工具機整體的訂單較去年同期增加了16.8%那約是日圓1430億元"},{"start":9406.563,"end":9429.288,"text":"尤其日本的工具机的负责人工会的负责人他说他认为美国关税影响已经缓缓所以才能够有这样的成绩但是我们看看我们自己我们看到台湾机械工会理事长庄理事长所指出工具机产业10月份的出口仅有多少1.4亿美元"},{"start":9430.268,"end":9445.926,"text":"年减是23.1%主要是受到景气不佳还有台币汇率的问题竞争对手强国的一个影响度所以目前我们的出口金额是不及于过往的一半"},{"start":9446.787,"end":9474.319,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下我們都知道我們自己工具機它是屬於一個高端精密的一個機種從關鍵的這個零組件到整機產業都是由我們自己自主設計以及我們自己的整合力量這是台灣之光啊但是我們看到長期我們被國際也非常的遵從是最重要世界各國的主要出口國"},{"start":9475.459,"end":9496.208,"text":"但是我們看到日本廠商面臨到同樣的市場來相比我們卻因為高關稅而壓縮了我們的毛利卻因為沒有辦法去降低關稅他們現在的一個痛苦苦境所以本期要請教這個嚴重性不只是"},{"start":9497.108,"end":9522.625,"text":"老闆接單的問題而且嚴重的影響到我國的就業率嚴重的影響到整個民生的議題整個經濟產業鏈所以本席請教楊代表台灣出口的製造的高額關稅正在削弱我們產業的競爭力你們對於降低對美關稅的談判剛剛從頭到尾本席您聽您都一直告訴我們會有好消息"},{"start":9526.988,"end":9527.135,"text":"感谢您的观看"},{"start":9528.611,"end":9556.82,"text":"报告委员我们谈判的目标就是要把对德再往下积极调降而且不叠加然后呢232的结果我们也希望有多项的关税也能够达到最优惠的待遇这就是我们现在谈判的重点从头到尾从4月一直告诉我们到现在每一次的回答就是如此让我们的产业姆萨萨我们不知道谈判的"},{"start":9557.68,"end":9580.67,"text":"最黑箱殘判的最慢一拖再拖所以本席好不容易聽到您告訴我們說一定到最後階段那到底什麼時候會告訴我們能夠給我們看到實質的出口的救命效果請做說明委員剛剛你講到這個黑箱我不贊同因為"},{"start":9582.116,"end":9601.362,"text":"在第一次的谈判回来我们有说明然后院长也接同副院长也跟大院来做说明了此外我们也在我们的请问你去告诉我们的产业到目前为止从谈判了这么久谁知道我们的答案是什么所以本期针对本期的提问"},{"start":9602.122,"end":9628.149,"text":"因為政府本來就是要協助民眾照顧民眾尤其是他們的產業面對到這麼樣的一個關鍵議題所以請問什麼時候沒關係您告訴本席我們這這麼辛苦的這個從4月份開始談判到現在那麼你們告訴我今天告訴我們已經到最後階段請問你們預計何時可以告訴我們的民眾那麼"},{"start":9629.926,"end":9656.134,"text":"我们出口救命成效要怎么样什么时间内容是什么尽量的尽数的把它结束尽量跟尽数是什么呢是12月底还是要拖还是怎么样因为我们的产业到目前为止我们不敢结单但是也不能不结单因为我们的就业率我们的劳工都是我们很重要的产业生命力"},{"start":9657.31,"end":9673.671,"text":"所以你要解決我們的產業啊你可不可以告訴我們您月計是在這個月底還是下個月呢告訴我們方向 答案就您所說的 降低關稅以及232條款要怎麼樣優惠我們請可不可以給我們一個大約時間點"},{"start":9676.364,"end":9703.272,"text":"委員 產業所面臨的困難的不確定性我們非常了解哇 這個最好了您非常了解就是要解決我們的問題啊對 我們要解決問題但是談判是要給也要拿所以在這個怎麼求取最好的產業的利益這是我們最重要的我還是回答我們會緊述快速的能夠拿到對業者的好利益社會大眾聽到緊述快速我們還是得不到答案 李請回"},{"start":9705.052,"end":9707.514,"text":"那本席要來請教我們的部長工部長台美關稅協議呢即將要出爐我也要謝謝索領軍的總談判代表剛剛說我會盡速會快速那這個方向是爭取對等關稅稅率15%而且不疊加的這個原來的原稅率是不是如此這個方向"},{"start":9730.629,"end":9749.806,"text":"接下来232条款也有关于到我们关税优惠的待遇是不是232条款杨总代表在点头那么既然你们两位都说是那何时可以告诉我们你们预估大概什么时候可以告诉我们"},{"start":9751.953,"end":9777.374,"text":"因為剛剛總談判代表請依照你經濟部長的立場來回答談判代表告訴我們我會盡快進數就從4月份開始每一次的回答都是如此我們當然期待也是盡快的可以那什麼時候呢你們總是有一個KPI嘛因為從4月份到現在那你們告訴我進數盡快是12月底會告訴我們嗎你預估會不會會不會 部長"},{"start":9781.446,"end":9803.824,"text":"因為這個我沒有辦法把握你也是沒有辦法把握你是我們的經濟部長那一月份會不會因為你們都參與其中啊那一月份會不會你們是盡量我們社會大眾在聽到一個是盡速盡快一個是盡量所以我們到現在還得不到答案有沒有信心達成"},{"start":9805.959,"end":9828.079,"text":"有信心但是沒有時間點是不是如此有沒有信心達成剛剛告訴我們的這個方向楊總代表我可不可以再請你再上來一下兩位因為告訴我們是盡量因為告訴我們是盡速時間點那剛剛部長回答是有信心那請教楊總代表"},{"start":9829.352,"end":9858.095,"text":"是不是朝著232優惠的這個待遇以及這個15%從現在暫時性的20%到這個15%然後不加原來的關稅不疊加這是我們談判目標一定要有信心一定要拿到這個最好的優惠稅率所以你是有信心可以拿到剛剛我們所說的這兩個方向這是我們要達成的目標一定要有信心是信心嘛那所以其實這一點還是沒有辦法告訴我們"},{"start":9859.205,"end":9873.274,"text":"因為談判是雙方的不是一方的因為一拖再拖讓我們的產業不知道該怎麼辦 你知道嗎現在在我們的中部地區我們的工具機 機械類別 扣件等我們不只關稅的問題我們還有一個匯率的問題"},{"start":9876.883,"end":9890.958,"text":"所以剛剛本席特別舉了日本工具機的例子人家增加那麼多 我們的成效是如此你們告訴我說 你們都很清楚那我們的產業要怎麼辦"},{"start":9892.479,"end":9912.135,"text":"這是本席所要請問的我們的產業到底要怎麼辦我們的產業現在只有什麼 裁員 減薪而且會影響到本來穩定可以勞工收入的去繳他的房貸 現在也有也有 乾脆我停止了繳房貸"},{"start":9913.174,"end":9930.106,"text":"你讓家庭的生活都已經受到影響我們到底要怎麼辦去協助產業我們還是有支持方案來支持他們就是說短期間不管是貸款的問題雨仙也不收傘然後貸款的問題最後一個議題我請國發會國發會本席跟你討論在一個月前本席再次請教你我們的傳統產業這麼辛苦您現在的AI導入"},{"start":9943.309,"end":9964.705,"text":"轉型但是本席告訴你我現在現有的傳統產業中小企業他的貸款他已經在急救室了你應該先解決讓他可以存活下來啊所以本席具體要求你你去研議現在他們的貸款你可以怎麼樣補貼他們利息你可以怎樣減減可是"},{"start":9966.092,"end":9984.271,"text":"上個禮拜本席收到你的這個回函一個月後的研議你們現在結論要怎麼做怎麼補貼有啊怎麼補貼請教那一個部分還是一樣就是說我們會透過那一個一些銀行的譬如銀行的一些機構譬如說像假設譬如說像台"},{"start":9986.152,"end":10000.296,"text":"台企會針對某一些特定的一些中小企業的一些一些信保基金啊他會提供一些利息的補貼這個是新貸新的貸款你舊貸就已經沒有辦法解決了你叫他再去舉新貸所以本席告訴你的舊的會展延啊舊的會展延"},{"start":10007.95,"end":10025.038,"text":"有沒有利息補貼確認一下有沒有利息補貼現在在急救室的這些有沒有利息補貼他原來貸款有沒有利息補貼所以本期就告訴你你只有叫人家再去新貸我要用什麼去貸"},{"start":10028.699,"end":10033.243,"text":"部長 國發會主委請你真正聽聽產業的聲音好不好你到底告訴我我現在在急救市的這些產業他的貸款你有沒有地息補貼你有沒有預計怎麼樣協助他們除了展 會不會展 會不會展還會不會展還會展延 會展延會展延 怎麼展延就是他如果"},{"start":10053.536,"end":10070.336,"text":"正常繳息的話就至少可以攢半年攢延半年 利息有沒有補貼利息的話它如果實際受災的話中小信保在某一個條件之下是可以的在某一些條件之下部長 國外諸位我拜託你我再一次拜託你"},{"start":10071.457,"end":10096.869,"text":"你去演繹 不要呼嚨我們的產業一定要把他救活所以本期要問部長啊你到底要選擇救他還是到底要選擇看他倒你要選擇哪一項當然是救他救他 把方案拿出來 謝謝不過這裡面分為兩點企業是信保基金啊私人的房貸 他在講私人的房貸企業的房貸"},{"start":10100.287,"end":10117.142,"text":"我全套私人完債不給我啦好 謝謝宏偉 現在是國倉你們有換嗎大家都沒看到在後面來 謝謝接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢問"},{"start":10132.909,"end":10153.966,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請經濟部部長 國營事業管理司司長還有我們經貿代表 楊好 我們請三位 謝謝黃委員好部長 高關稅的事情大家都很關心不過我剛剛看到你們在回答其他委員的"},{"start":10156.04,"end":10177.876,"text":"質詢的時候看起來要問到一個具體的時間點是非常的困難就是不管是你或者是楊總代表講話都非常的有藝術但是我現在先講一個對於我們新北的鄉親比較迫切的問題我不曉得部長有沒有注意到這個週末的新聞淡北道路"},{"start":10179.361,"end":10206.762,"text":"11月27號挖斷自來水管線那造成大概淡水地區6萬5千戶左右停水這個是11月27號的事情11月27號的事情那到11月30號的時候我們的自來水公司說有逐步的覆水這個是11月30號發出的聲明到今天早上今天早上新聞媒體的報導是"},{"start":10209.181,"end":10232.393,"text":"停水超過68個小時停水戶自嘲淡水人已學會用貓砂停水68小時在現在的家庭生活當中甚至有一些營業用的店家這到底是一個什麼樣子的概念所以現在大家最關心的一件事情是請問淡水的民眾還要再等多久"},{"start":10234.383,"end":10251.234,"text":"源頭供水的部分已經在供了那現在就是壓的部分水壓的部分管線末端我現在不是問問題啦我現在是問說淡水的民眾大概很急迫的知道一件事情的答案就是還要等多久"},{"start":10252.336,"end":10269.723,"text":"你總要給人家一個時間嘛人家才可以比較務實的去規劃他接下來的生活嘛否則在昨天的時候發一個聲明說下午5點逐步覆水那但是大家每一個人都待在家裡面等啊"},{"start":10271.107,"end":10297.422,"text":"等水來了沒有啊等馬達聲開始響了沒有啊那一直等到今天早上還是一堆人家裡沒有水可以用那因此我才藉由這個質詢的機會可能因為一般的民眾可能打電話去問你們也沒有辦法得到個確切的答案是不是可以跟大家講說什麼時候可以修復完畢覆水成功報告委員那個淡水大概有19個里"},{"start":10298.72,"end":10319.885,"text":"那到目前為止我們統計大概有12個里的部分大概我們管縣現在還有幾戶在停水大概負水率大概將近八成將近八成你確定有八成但是因為很多是高樓那高樓的部分因為他下不是啊你八成怎麼算的啊我聽不懂啊"},{"start":10321.411,"end":10349.2,"text":"你八成怎麼算的啊 覆水率有八成這個是依照我們目前管網的現況那跟委員補充報告就是因為有很多大樓他必須要地下水持續滿以後才可以往上送所以這個時間會比較慢那我們現在 所以什麼時候可以完全覆水我們目前的評估大概到下午4點應該是各個大概有17個里應該都可以覆水完成"},{"start":10349.605,"end":10367.642,"text":"那還有多少沒有辦法覆水完成因為你現在在用國會寶貴國會職權的時間我聽到都還是空的啦剛剛你說有八成來來來你看一下我今天早上我今天早上收到的公告目前12月1號降壓戶數還有17508戶"},{"start":10374.363,"end":10393.739,"text":"那就是用水受到影響的還有17508戶然後你站在國會說覆水已經有八成這個數字是對的嗎八戶委員因為總覆數大概六萬兩千多戶啦所以呢這樣子有八成是你數學有問題還是我數學有問題"},{"start":10397.969,"end":10426.132,"text":"這個數字喔 來來來 你上面看一個是9951另外一個是7557加起來17508戶啊我現在沒有要跟你爭執數學的事情啊你們說八成覆水客觀上這不正確大家可以去算啊但現在淡水的民眾最關心的事情是什麼一個週末"},{"start":10427.56,"end":10449.336,"text":"整整一個週末沒有水搞到今天早上你現在還沒有辦法承諾什麼時候可以覆水完成嗎什麼時候可以正常的恢復供水完成就是崁嶺跟新村的坡因為高地區比較晚一點大概凌晨2點可以全面覆水明天早上凌晨2點拜託你們 拜託你們 拜託你們"},{"start":10454.005,"end":10480.115,"text":"淡水的民眾自己都已經開始自嘲了沒有水的狀況現在是不是要學會用貓砂看了好像很細虐看了好像很細虐但是實際上面對他們來講那是影響非常重大的事情切回今天的主題我只有一個最簡單的問題因為剛剛很多委員問了很多次但我還是沒有得到一個答案"},{"start":10481.69,"end":10489.556,"text":"之前行政院說談判有相關資訊會事實報告這個是7月11號的新聞鄭麗君副院長出來講的第二個8月賴總統稱我們現在20%加既有的稅率20%加N是一個暫時性的稅率賴總統說渴望再調降"},{"start":10503.527,"end":10525.257,"text":"那從8月1號賴總統這樣講8月7號開始上路到今天12月1號了嘛那大家最關心的事情是這個暫時性的稅率還會暫時多久包委員剛剛已經有回答 是還要暫時多久 儘快嘛所以儘快有可能是兩個月也有可能是半年嘛"},{"start":10526.448,"end":10547.313,"text":"我這樣說對不對我自己的判斷不會到半年那麼久那你的判斷會還要暫時多久我們會盡快對啊所以你說不會半年但是你會盡快我們在國會問啦我必須要老實說永遠只能得到這個問題來第五次實體談判是什麼時候舉行的"},{"start":10551.988,"end":10567.361,"text":"那個談判代表不是站在你旁邊嗎第五次實體談判是什麼時候舉行的在9月底跟10月初9月底跟10月初嗎那整整從10月到11月10月到11月就沒有任何的實體談判了嗎"},{"start":10569.396,"end":10596.702,"text":"是因為都已經談完了嗎不是 因為我們能就這個23號供應鏈它是一個非常複雜的議題我瞭解所以要做文書的往來透過線上的交換有需要第六次實體談判嗎我相信只要達成初步的共識要有第六次的實體所以還要有第六次實體談判嗎對那第六次實體談判以後到真的能夠達成協議恐怕還有一段路要走吧"},{"start":10598.68,"end":10621.88,"text":"因為你們今天的題我為什麼問要不要有第六次實體談判我不曉得談判總代表跟經濟部部長對你們今天所提到國會裡面的書面報告到底熟不熟悉你們在裡面跟大家描述的是我們已經歷經五次實體談判現在在做文件交換等到文件交換完了以後接下來就渴望來簽協議"},{"start":10624.198,"end":10628.988,"text":"但我看了你們文字上面的描述所描述的那個process我覺得非常的困惑"},{"start":10630.472,"end":10654.867,"text":"第五次的實體談判是9月底10月初等於10月11月整整兩個月沒有再進行任何的實體談判透過文件的交換在12月可以達成協議這怎麼可能所以我才請教你會不會有第六次的實體談判那你現在認為應該有需要進行第六次的實體談判只是第六次的實體談判的時間點你現在也不知道嗎"},{"start":10656.028,"end":10680.951,"text":"我們都會盡快的安排我知道都是盡快跟盡速最後一個我只想提一件事當初前部長郭志輝在8月的時候說4000億美元的投資引發軒然大波經濟部那個時候說沒有沒有沒有郭志輝不是那個意思郭志輝只是用日韓投資美國當作例子來講結果沒有想到"},{"start":10682.188,"end":10702.049,"text":"無獨有偶今年11月21號金融時報寫了台美協議將拍板台灣估承諾投資4000億美元真的是非常巧合8月這個金額出來的時候經濟部消毒消了半天說郭志輝只是舉例啦"},{"start":10703.021,"end":10725.875,"text":"不是4000億美元結果11月21號金融時報又講4000億美元現在4000億美元這個數字是定了嗎所有的投資金額到現在沒有議定我覺得金融時報 他是在做一個揣測因為金融時報也是揣測嘛金融時報是不是也是揣測不好意思請你針對我的問題回答金融時報是不是也是揣測那你們有沒有發函要求金融時報更正"},{"start":10731.687,"end":10754.72,"text":"我們有對外跟大家說明這個金額是一個揣測不是啊那你要跟金融時報講啊說你這樣寫不對啊這麼重要這麼有信譽的國際媒體怎麼可以沒有事實基礎妄自揣測要發函去跟金融時報講啊怎麼可以這樣隨便揣測這是國際知名媒體耶這是國際知名媒體耶"},{"start":10760.319,"end":10784.174,"text":"沒關係啊你們到時候談判出來的時候是不是4000億美元到時候盤掀開就知道了但我要提醒一件事我只要提醒一件事拜託日本5500億美元南韓3500億美元很多人在看絕對數字說台灣大概介在這兩個金額之間但我看的是佔GDP的佔比"},{"start":10785.7,"end":10788.647,"text":"日本5500億美元 占他們GDP是14%韓國3500億美元 占他們GDP是20%假設啦 現在我講假設"},{"start":10796.181,"end":10822.678,"text":"因為我們國會立法委員對到底要投資多少錢 老實講我們也不知道然後看媒體 原來是媒體亂寫經濟部部長 前經濟部部長講原來前經濟部部長只是在舉例然後也不是4000億美元所以我站在這邊 我只能假設假設是4000億美元的話占我們的GDP占比多少這樣的占比會不會太高部長會不會覺得太高"},{"start":10825.1,"end":10847.936,"text":"報告委員我說過我們的投資模式跟日韓是不一樣的是對完全不一樣因為日韓他是把他的外匯拿出來所以我們現在是金額未定但投資模式定了是嗎投資模式是對幾乎是不一樣我們是廠商自主性的去投資我說啦投資模式不一樣所以投資模式定了嘛只是投資金額還沒有定是這樣嗎"},{"start":10849.488,"end":10870.641,"text":"如果是所謂的自主啦那如果自主的話你今天就在這邊拍胸脯講啊我們對美投資承諾的金額是零啦因為所有的投資都是自主的跟政府一點關係都沒有都是廠商樂意自己要去的跟我們的政府跟台美經貿的談判一點關係也沒有承諾的金額是零嘛好謝謝謝謝我們三位謝謝"},{"start":10875.219,"end":10896.086,"text":"接下来我们请王洪辉委员 请做询答谢谢好 谢谢主席请我们龚部长还有我们杨珍妮总代表好 请两位 谢谢好 部长"},{"start":10897.495,"end":10917.042,"text":"在川習會之前在我們經濟委員會詢問就是我們什麼時候有好消息那時候你說因為他們正在準備APEC還有就是川習會的相關事宜因為川普在4月份還要去訪問美國"},{"start":10918.662,"end":10940.579,"text":"所以在时间的部分我想请问一下我们有没有可能至少在4月之前明年4月之前我们的好消息可以揭晓部长来看我们的总代表因为这个最后的这个"},{"start":10941.782,"end":10967.688,"text":"最後的結論是要雙方是 你有沒有信心在明年川習會之前能夠確定我們台美關稅的整個架構有沒有信心有信心 我個人啦你個人有信心好 就是至少在明年4月之前因為我們等了太久那請問一下 今年底之前呢我們可不可以看到"},{"start":10970.287,"end":10984.988,"text":"今年底之前今年底我們真的會努力的緊述的看看今年底可不可以達成總代表有信心嗎今年底之前我們要努力盡力的但是這個談判是取決於雙方"},{"start":10985.549,"end":11002.444,"text":"那另外就是刚才讲我们努力的目标请问一下我们会类似像日本的模式日本是15%而且不叠加还是韩国韩国的税率比我们低但是韩国会叠加"},{"start":11004.037,"end":11028.809,"text":"請問一下我們會比較類似像日本稅率降低不疊加還是像韓國一樣稅率降低但是人人部分會疊加報告委員我們的目標就是稅率要往下調降對等稅率往下調降而且不能夠疊加而且不能疊加所以是採取像日本的方式有信心可以達到15%嗎"},{"start":11032.126,"end":11046.013,"text":"這個稅率往下調降是我們的目標15%是目標嗎這也是我們的目標至少15%我覺得要把變成15%以下難度應該很高吧15%以下的難度是比較高"},{"start":11047.783,"end":11068.954,"text":"這因為要看美國給各國的稅率如果要調降到一定的比其他國家高那就要好另外在這個外媒有報導而且呢看起來院長行政院院長也有證實這件事情就是我們談的架構裡面包括我們要幫我們的半導體業者要幫美國來訓練人才是不是"},{"start":11076.078,"end":11102.117,"text":"在整個的談判架構裡面包不包含我們要幫忙美國來訓練人才報告委員我們的談判架構裡面講到台灣模式第三個就是協助我業者在美國建立這個園區取得比較好的投資的條件我們沒有談到說要幫他訓練勞工這一部分的人這一部分的"},{"start":11103.378,"end":11126.756,"text":"所以按照卓龙泰院长很自豪说这个是我们很特殊其他国家没有办法能够达到这样的工作只有因为我们有科学园区的概念所以这就是台湾模式所以我们这里面没有包含我们要帮美国的半导体业者来训练他的人才吗没有吗"},{"start":11130.357,"end":11140.517,"text":"沒有談 據我了解沒有談到這樣的內容那台積電他訓練他的員工這個是當然我們是尊重如果說需要政府怎麼樣幫忙我們可以另外再討論"},{"start":11141.638,"end":11169.428,"text":"但是不是政府以後我們政府跟政府之間的文件不是談判的條件之一不是談判條件之一我特別要講我們當然希望稅率能夠降低我們當然希望能夠不要疊加但是我必須說如果按照現在我們投資要4000億美金然後如果我們技術要送人也要幫他訓練然後甚至要到這個美國去建立所謂的半導體生態系"},{"start":11171.569,"end":11189.382,"text":"這叫做不折不扣的掏空台灣錢也過去 技術也過去 廠也過去所以我知道我們現在跟川普政府談非常非常的困難其他國家 日本 韓國 大多數也是這樣子但是我們跟留台灣的這樣的一個"},{"start":11192.384,"end":11207.154,"text":"的原則一定要把握住否則的話我們不能夠接受為了稅率為了要不疊加然後最後變成拋空台灣這是好幾世代的問題非常嚴肅"},{"start":11209.715,"end":11234.836,"text":"所以刚才我听到邱志伟委员讲说好像以为立法院只会唱反调但是我觉得我们相关的原则这是我们一定要把握住的好不好我们这一代人真的不能把我们几代人累积的这些成果全部送出去谢谢好 谢谢接下来我们请洪孟凯委员请做询答"},{"start":11245.375,"end":11248.04,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝這些麻煩請工部長好我們再請工部長"},{"start":11256.67,"end":11270.248,"text":"部長好 黃委員好部長 本席也要為我們淡水鄉親請命是禮拜五無預警的這個管線破裂而造成說到現在已經將近60幾個小時我們台水公司真的非常努力我知道 因為昨天早上我也到現場去給"},{"start":11272.39,"end":11287.558,"text":"不管是禮拜六晚上我先請同仁去送飲料感謝這些台水在現場施工的同仁還是我昨天早上也到現場總工程師在現場新北市政府公務局局長在現場本席也了解"},{"start":11288.078,"end":11312.28,"text":"接管完畢之後還要再送水不是說馬上接完管之後我們最終端就打開水龍頭有水但重點在於是說這個資訊的落差跟掌握的速度沒有及時讓我們所有鄉親知道這第一個部分所以到現在剛剛你雖然講是說有八成恢復用水但是事實是對於沒有水的加護就是零啊"},{"start":11313.581,"end":11338.812,"text":"80%其實是沒有意義的有80%會用水但是我這個家庭如果說打開水龍頭沒有水那就是零他就是持續的停水這第一個部分就是要儘快儘快把這個水壓輸送到這個需要的這個好本期比較具體的來講兩個部分第一我們其實有不可抗力因素的這個水費補償辦法就是說如果說天災來的時候那該"},{"start":11340.578,"end":11349.394,"text":"停算水費的基本費的這幾天我沒有用水就沒有用嘛那這幾天現在已經確定了現在辦法出來沒"},{"start":11350.943,"end":11378.044,"text":"我們可能還是要跟我們會照我們規定來辦理所以就是可以從寬認定從禮拜五到這個禮拜一甚至今天可能都要算算入那什麼時候會公告讓我們民眾知道其實這個是最卑微請求這也是應該的是吧我們今天就來公告好今天公告就是我們不可抗力因素因為水停水而造成不可抗力"},{"start":11379.193,"end":11397.232,"text":"該家戶受影響能夠減免的部分請今天就公告讓我們淡水鄉親知道第二個部分我們也支持因為這個起因是新北市政府委託的施工廠商做淡北道路施工的時候挖破管線但現在有傳出來講說是圖資不相符"},{"start":11398.154,"end":11416.83,"text":"就是說管線在下面跟我們自來水提供的圖資不相符合造成說挖到管線但具體是怎麼樣因為眾說紛紜我想第一時間我們全力搶修停水完畢但第二個部分是要釐清責任什麼時候能夠釐清責任"},{"start":11417.606,"end":11438.73,"text":"報委員這個部分我們當初在這個工程新北市新工處委外設計的時候我們就有辦理會勘會勘的時候我們的同仁就有請他們依照由我們的維修警進去巡查那個管線的實際位置那不然就是要辦理探挖但是事實上"},{"start":11439.23,"end":11455.575,"text":"我們據我們目前所知是這兩個件事情都沒有做都沒有做所以這個廠商已經不是第一次囉因為我知道是說其實這次是最大規模的停水但之前已經有兩次零星小規模的一個狀況不管是挖到管線還是說造成我們的這個鄉親的一個"},{"start":11459.002,"end":11484.709,"text":"那這如果說都沒有做 那事情很嚴重喔我覺得應該要由自來水公司這邊也要好好的督促因為責任要釐清我現在對鄉親來講家庭的生活影響已經是事實那我們要釐清責任所以說我現在要要求的是說那到底責任歸屬在哪邊新北市政府委託的施工團隊有沒有依照相關的施工SOP"},{"start":11485.409,"end":11512.177,"text":"還是說我們提供的物資 圖資有錯誤那這個部分 釐清我們什麼時候可以釐清來 部長這個是不是我們經濟部有一個管卸小組我們會儘快來那如果真的有需要我們會請台水公司去做求償好 那就麻煩因為本席完全支持新北市府如果說要這樣的話要依法依照相關規定跟廠商來求償那如果說台水公司在這個過程裡面有"},{"start":11512.957,"end":11536.955,"text":"搶修而造成的費用該球場也要球場我們代位球場不能由到時候納稅人買單嗎好那這個部分一個禮拜內是不是可以跟新北市府來做一個釐清因為現在在搶修當中搶修完畢之後對搶修完畢之後看我們儘快就看看兩個禮拜到三個禮拜好那就麻煩好那第三最後一個部分部長"},{"start":11538.137,"end":11551.224,"text":"淡水新市鎮現在20萬人口就淡水20萬人居住兩條管線進入到淡水的自來水一條是佛舊市區這次沒有破所以舊市區這次停水沒有受影響一條是佛新市鎮"},{"start":11552.069,"end":11572.072,"text":"這一次就是破到這一個主動脈的新市鎮的管線那我們也就看啊原來淡水地區20萬人這樣子是非常脆弱的一個用水那也因此本協講說現在在淡北道路的一個工程裡面是不是能夠延逸加設另外一條管線給淡海新市鎮的一個鄉親那或者是"},{"start":11573.233,"end":11600.405,"text":"過去我們其實有淡海新市鎮另外一個計畫就是增加蓄水池5萬噸的蓄水池我想我們自來水公司的同仁應該知道本期在講什麼過去其實有研議過那現在只有一個3萬5千噸的蓄水池在淡海新市鎮那但是我們之前有考慮備援因為如果說新市鎮人口越來越多的話應該要增設一個5萬噸的蓄水池那依照這一次的一個臨時60幾個小時的停水狀況是不是能夠"},{"start":11601.385,"end":11622.044,"text":"我們最快速度來啟動我們看是要新增一個管線做預備或者是5萬噸的熱蓄水池計畫那我們後續再來做一個協調可以嗎我們會盡快評估出來好那這個一個月內評估出來那本席也會協助來跟新北市府如果說需要用地的部分需要"},{"start":11623.201,"end":11638.334,"text":"這個工程的介面整合部分我們一起來協調但最重要的是把這一次的停水當成是一個教訓那未來不要再發生那最重要的就是那我們就要有備援計畫我們來做 這樣可以嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來我們請賴時報委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":11653.611,"end":11660.694,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部的工部長還有總談判代表 楊總談判代表請兩位 謝謝先請教 您好 先請教部長我們確定要用核電了嗎"},{"start":11676.554,"end":11699.455,"text":"現在是啟動自主安全檢查啟動了對啟動那他們如果正常一般是一年半對但是還是要跟希望啦因為還是要跟原廠就是西屋公司趕快他們有時間跟我們配合所以那個時間點就是我們自己當然會很快啦但是外國的廠商要跟我們配合我們也盡量希望趕快"},{"start":11700.436,"end":11721.042,"text":"所以我們可不可以講就是媒體報導的最樂觀2027年可以重啟河山是不是可以這樣講嗎沒有沒有可以這樣講嗎自主檢查完成自主檢查完成要把這個報告送到河安會那河安會會省多久這個可能是河安會一般來講半年到一年可以了吧"},{"start":11721.582,"end":11735.731,"text":"那我們還是要尊重他們是嘛所以你現在一年半從現在算一年半現在2025年底了嘛那一年半就是2027然後所以差不多2027的年底或者2028剛剛好附上這個這個要總統大選喔兩邊票都要囉變這樣子囉"},{"start":11741.919,"end":11768.026,"text":"好像不會咧什麼叫好像不會2027不會還是什麼因為2027我們送出這個自主安全檢查碼但是核安會還是要審查他可能花的時間我們就不曉得會多少所以他如果只要他可以了你們就可以啟動是不是這個意思他同意我們當然就可以啟動一般過去多久 核安會一般都剩多久如果從國外的經驗來講的話一般是"},{"start":11770.831,"end":11789.488,"text":"一年半甚至有更長所以一年半我們現在來講的話就變成說現在開始就一年半時間自主檢驗所以就是2027的年終再加一年半那等於是2028的年底囉差不多這樣子這是順利的狀況順利的狀況好那麼這個有關於關稅談判這個請教楊總代表"},{"start":11796.618,"end":11824.108,"text":"有沒有談到進口的部分是不是要我們美國進來的包括農產品包括汽車全部零關稅有沒有這樣子提到報告委員美國這次談判希望各國能夠大量的進口他的農產品所以他要求所有的國家都是大部分的產品應該要放在降稅的清單上面對嘛 就是是不是零關稅"},{"start":11825.128,"end":11826.87,"text":"所以現在幾乎可以確定汽車的進口從美國進來的汽車關稅會大幅降低不排除變零我這樣這個statement對不對"},{"start":11847.811,"end":11864.36,"text":"可以嗎因為依照國際管理還沒有簽協定簽署之前不過我們沒有辦法對外說明對嘛 可是這個方向是往這個方向嘛王智南說所有的產品項目確實是大家討論的對 所以這個農產品啊包括汽車這個我要提醒楊總代表這個"},{"start":11866.582,"end":11888.038,"text":"這個農業要受保護喔 全世界WTO在談的時候 農業基本上都是各國保護的對象我們的農民動輒幾十萬人對不對 幾萬人幾十萬人這個要他們的生計要保護喔不然你政府怎麼補貼呢 是不是那個其實一樣啊 其實你全部零關稅要一次到位呢那個這裡面零組建廠"},{"start":11891.961,"end":11911.99,"text":"林竹電廠有30萬人這個東西都是你要去考慮的要不要一次降為零那個我請教部長汽車一次降為零對我們的產業有沒有影響報告委員因為這個談判還沒有確定我們也不曉得現在是多少但是我同意"},{"start":11913.067,"end":11934.299,"text":"汽車對台灣的產業的確就像您講包括零組件產業還是有30萬就業人口所以我們還是要支持我們的汽車產業的發展所以可以這樣講說如果美國要我們就給他大幅調降但是不會調於零不過因為過去的美國車進口到台灣來是比較少的因為大家習慣了未來就會多了在美國製造日本廠日本車又進來了我跟你講"},{"start":11939.714,"end":11966.376,"text":"所以他進來有可能不是取代我們國產車是取代其他國家的進口車不是美國車喔是在美國生產的日本車台灣人還是很喜歡的喔但是他會取代從日本進口進來的這個日本車啦那再請教那個楊總代表我們現在馬上又要400億美金要跟他買武器啊這些要不要算入我們的貿易額裡面要不要算"},{"start":11967.785,"end":11987.673,"text":"报告委员我刚有报告说在进出恐贸易统计里面我们没有包括武器的部分其实真正讲是军售没有商售有但是现在几乎都是军售应该这么讲了报告委员很多的商售现在是试单给我们国内的厂商现在"},{"start":11988.735,"end":12001.57,"text":"但是你剛剛回到其他委員提到的是不是兩位跟隨回答一下我就結束了就是確定要對美投資換關稅的條件及不要疊加這樣的講法對不對"},{"start":12004.929,"end":12029.27,"text":"我想是整體的談判不是這樣單一的數我們關心的就是投資投資多少另外一件事投資是包括在關稅談判關稅非關稅還有經濟安全貿易環境投資商業條件那我再直接一點美國有沒有要求我們投資換關稅的降低有沒有"},{"start":12030.509,"end":12040.996,"text":"我還是要講這整體的談判是包括投資項目是在商業條件裡面也是在整體的環境裡面最後一小點那個部長你剛有提到說我們跟韓國不一樣不會動用外匯存底那廠商怎麼過去呢廠商錢怎麼過去他把台幣換成美金還是要找央行啊"},{"start":12052.339,"end":12071.832,"text":"他是自有資金啊還是要換美金啊不是政府拿出我們的這個預算出來但是我們還在換匯啊你美金還是會減少啊你的美金就送到美國去了啊這個帳是這樣算的啊哪裡有人這樣講說這個廠商給你去那政府幹什麼當然是政府一致談的啊即便廠商過去也是要政府談"},{"start":12078.256,"end":12099.814,"text":"才是對啊 對不對所以這裡面來講4千億看起來就差不多板上釘釘喔你們也不敢否認喔沒有沒有這個才是 我再強調一遍現在來講的話這個這樣談下來我們實在是圓大頭日本的GDP是我們五倍他只要投資5500億我們只有他五分之一我們就投資4千億這是哪門子的生意啊"},{"start":12100.835,"end":12125.92,"text":"這樣談下來的話 如果真的投資四千億 喪權辱國啊沒有 廠商他是基於他客戶上訂單的需求而且他過去也會賺錢啊 是這樣的啊為什麼韓國都不會這樣講 過去也賺錢韓國他們不是這樣的模式啊韓國說只要三千五百去的話 他們就垮掉了 你都不敢這樣講他們是拿出他們一筆錢出來給美國政府去操作這個金額 我們不是欸"},{"start":12127.794,"end":12139.447,"text":"現在沒有時間跟你扯這麼多了反正你們如果同意實現利益就這樣子然後還要進口農產品免關稅然後進口汽車免關稅那是到底上千入股了好 謝謝謝謝賴執法委員 謝謝接下來我們請徐宇珍委員請做詢答"},{"start":12159.49,"end":12166.251,"text":"谢谢主席我们请经济部工部长还有国发会业主委及杨总代表我们请三位谢谢"},{"start":12173.191,"end":12197.765,"text":"部長好 主委還有楊總代表我想其實從4月份到現在每一次談到關稅的議題大概我們聽到都會是這是現在談判中不方便來透露保密協定國安的這個因素但是我們每次都可以在外國媒體得到一些訊息包括說我們這次講的說要投資4千億的美元還有要以這個訓練"},{"start":12199.167,"end":12209.345,"text":"美勞工來換取普降關稅請問一下楊總代表你們是不是曾經就這個部分跟美方提出正式的抗議針對洩漏資料"},{"start":12212.405,"end":12232.676,"text":"報告委員因為這是報界自己的報導所以我們認為這是報界他們的 報界都很厲害喔他們的報導好像一向還都蠻準確的喔那針對這個部分我們不這麼認為而且而且他們現在各國都在看我們的最後的最定案的金額所以到處都會有一些揣測"},{"start":12233.416,"end":12258.053,"text":"好那最後定案的金額剛剛其實我想從早上到現在很多委員都有提到嘛那楊總代表也提到說這個因為在談判中所以沒有辦法對大家說明但是我想請教你因為我們今天是在國會備詢所以希望也不要有所隱瞞那我問你的如果是有這樣的一個狀況也請您告訴我們正確的訊息比如說也是根據這個路透社所說美國正與台灣洽談讓台企擴大投資美國"},{"start":12260.785,"end":12271.293,"text":"提供技術培訓當地人才這個訊息正不正確這個剛剛跟拱部長我們都說明了這個並不是在我們台灣模式裡面的條件"},{"start":12271.889,"end":12295.527,"text":"我剛講是台企擴大投資美國這個有錯嗎台灣企業是依照他們的國際佈局自主性他們會去做所以說不是在你們所謂的台企要到美國投資4千億美元的這樣子的一個評估裡是嗎沒有在你們談判的內容裡嗎我還是要講那個4千億是一個揣測的數字那如果不是4千億是會更多還是更少"},{"start":12296.684,"end":12317.601,"text":"為什麼要這樣的數字 因為當然我想它是以每日韓的這個中間的一個平均值那這個4000以你們現在談判的那樣 我只問你會更多還是更少我還是要講這到現在為止這個數字是不對的不對 對 所以我才問你是更多還是更少我沒有要你說出正確的數字"},{"start":12318.902,"end":12345.096,"text":"因為我不知道他的4千億到底是怎麼說話因為如果按照日本跟韓國是不一樣的不會有這種基本跟韓國是他們直接投資我們現在是台企到美國投資所以說卓文泰院長也說了台灣模式就是要把科學園區的模式這個移植到美國所以請問一下這是不是已經繼承的事實因為那天應該工部長也有在也有陪著院長出席他在對台灣工商團體的這個"},{"start":12346.209,"end":12363.479,"text":"表示說現在是由台美的政府G2G的合作由美方提供土地行政便利與優惠台企自行佈局政府提供金融保證是這樣嗎 請問部長對 大致上的方向是這樣對 那所以我們已經完成協議文本的草案了嗎"},{"start":12364.624,"end":12386.093,"text":"還沒有 就是這個文本是說大家大的方向已經有差不多的共識但是這個wording要怎麼寫這個可能還是要交換意見那既然大家都已經有共識可是到現在國會事實上都還完全毫不知情因為這個還沒有拍板最後的這個總結會議院長是在跟工商團體說明就反而沒有跟國會這邊來說明而且針對這個部分我也要請這個"},{"start":12390.555,"end":12417.353,"text":"那個部長看一下下面這個表格就是我們現在要讓我們的台企去美國這個設廠我們可以看到我們的科學園區的模式是由中央來主導所以不管土地取得基礎建設行政窗口稅務的優惠都是中央一聲令下我們面對管理局就一切沒問題可是美國的設廠模式它是地方分權所以說台商會面臨的風險有什麼需要自行整地變更地幕開發石層廠"},{"start":12418.559,"end":12445.595,"text":"還有承諾可能跳砲 比如說鴻海的威州案還有經費也可能需要協商還有建造環評安檢 層層的卡關以及需要分別談判 而且常設有追回條款如果我們的廠商 成如我們這個國家的安排到那邊去設廠了那請問一下 遇到這樣的一個狀況的時候是政府會依照我們的科學園區的模式來去跟美國的政府談判還是我們台商要單打獨鬥去解決這些問題呢"},{"start":12446.856,"end":12475.303,"text":"我们就是不希望台商去那边单打独斗所以为什么我们政府要出面跟美国政府有一个对口所以部长的意思就是说不会有他们到美国去单独面对设厂模式而是会由中央由我们的政府来去主导让台商避免面对这样的风险我们不是主导我们是支持他们协助他们但如果我刚讲的如果他们在设厂有遇到这样的问题不管像是鸿海也遇到这样的问题其实台积电也多少遇到这样的问题"},{"start":12475.723,"end":12503.076,"text":"那他們都是大企業喔他們有很強的公關法務部門那針對我們的這些台商有些可能沒有那麼大的企業他們要怎麼去面對國家會協助嗎會國家會協助那也希望說大家要信守這個承諾一定真的我們要去這個美國投資的時候也要讓我們台商絕對不能面臨這些風險是是是的好 謝謝那我們在這邊宣告我們今天中午不休息等到我們議事處理結束再結束"},{"start":12504.298,"end":12528.739,"text":"再休息來我們現在繼續請許副會委員請做詢答謝謝主席有請我們龔部長跟我們葉主委好我們請兩位謝謝徐委員好部長好主委好"},{"start":12529.246,"end":12546.321,"text":"我想這個台美的關稅的問題當然引發我們國內百工百業的一個關切那尤其我們這個未來這個產業跟我們的所謂的這個農業的一個變遷會不會影響到我們台灣這個鄉親的權益我想這是我們許多人關心的一個問題"},{"start":12547.302,"end":12569.745,"text":"那我知道這個從賴總統也好還是行政院各部會都有針對這個國力十大新動能然後還有AI新十大建設甚至我們針對農業有提出180億的一個輔導措施那請教部長跟主委我們目前針對這樣的一個輔導措施你們有沒有掌握到底這個輔導措施有沒有發揮一定的功效"},{"start":12573.934,"end":12586.002,"text":"經濟部的部分大概編列這個特別預算有460億那從這個8月7號開始因為我們用以晚計到現在已經開始實施了那現在大概有2000多個案子"},{"start":12587.067,"end":12614.771,"text":"已经开始申请那我们尽快把它往前推进有神医的就感谢神医没没没我们现在北中南东我们也去跟各个工协会都有说明会除了这个之外我们也会有一个辅导团主动的去北中南东各个实地的去协助他们有在追踪这样的一个辅导成效吗有有有是的那我想除了这个经济部之外主委"},{"start":12615.371,"end":12631.927,"text":"针对我们这个国会发布的这个10月份的景气对策信号当然我们是希望我们国内的产业发展能够持续的向上那您也有特别提到说这个我们已经掌握到台美关税的情形最坏的情形已经过去了目前确实是这个样子吗"},{"start":12632.808,"end":12652.88,"text":"目前就是說廠商其實有一些廠商其實已經慢慢的在適應這樣一個關稅的狀況那他自己本身也在做產業的轉型譬如說像工具企業者的話其實有少部分的工具企業者其實他自己本身在做轉型所以他目前的情況是往客製化的方向走"},{"start":12653.4,"end":12666.314,"text":"所以工具企業的其實有反應就是說雖然美國那邊的那個關稅還是比較高可是他慢慢的在做一些轉型然後做客製化那單有一些從那個歐就歐盟那邊其實有在接一些單過來"},{"start":12667.606,"end":12691.931,"text":"不過我想說因為我們目前的暫時性關稅是20%那當然對我們的這個整個出口也好產值也好甚至這個工商業的影響我想都會有大家都在關注那當然就我們來看的話我們屏東市農漁大縣那未來這個部分我們也要求我們的相關單位應該持續來關注這樣的一個議題那另外我想主委請回"},{"start":12692.796,"end":12710.594,"text":"部长我想上个礼拜经济部核定了这个核二核三再运转的一个可行性的一个计划那我们之前一直提到包含所谓的核飞料的问题最终处置长的问题还有社会共识的问题那目前不晓得经济部如何去看待这些的一些状况"},{"start":12711.79,"end":12732.733,"text":"河岸的問題我們現在就是開始自主安全檢查那自主安全檢查就還要請這個原廠來跟我們共同檢查完以後還要做國際的peer review就是這個英文叫就是同儕審查那審查通過以後確定以後然後才會把這個"},{"start":12734.11,"end":12746.595,"text":"我們自主安全檢查的這個報告送到這個核安會核安會會按照他的這個專業再審查這樣子安全上是有這樣幾道的程序"},{"start":12747.554,"end":12764.413,"text":"OK那我再請教一下經濟部曾經說過未來要做減煤蒸汽展綠非核的這個一個訴求那會不會因為核能發電廠的這個運轉在評估的計畫之後我們這幾個能源政策會有所調整跟變化"},{"start":12765.414,"end":12791.512,"text":"减煤增技还是会持续的进行当中再生能源的发展也会持续的进行不会有排挤的效果不会啦但是我们也一直担心说这个绿能一直被污名化之后那现在我们包含经济部也好农业部也好我们也期待能够未来真的要展开一个好的一个辅导措施尤其在这个我们相关的产业都需要用电的状况之下我们都会支持好的"},{"start":12791.792,"end":12806.444,"text":"能源政策啦但是未來我想對恆春半島的居民來講核能發電未來的安全性才是重中之重的工作那這邊那個曾董事長我想這個我們核三桶的同仁也很關心這個議題啦那未來這部分怎麼樣去強化這個議題"},{"start":12808.885,"end":12823.204,"text":"跟委員報告就是說河山廠現在的狀況我們還是因為他雖然停機但是我們還是維持因為安全的必要我們的整個相關的工作都還都維持著那至於您提到安全的部分我想說"},{"start":12824.205,"end":12842.938,"text":"安全一定是河南電廠運轉的最前提的要件甚至他停止運轉以後他的安全也還是我們的首要的前提案件要件但是現在聽起來好像河山廠是因為這個剛剛處理之後所以被評估成最可能馬上可以恢復的"},{"start":12845.192,"end":12868.854,"text":"應該不是這個樣子就我們在評估的時候說明的狀況是說因為它現在因為它的燃料池有足夠的空間所以它現在爐心裡面沒有燃料棒所以河島區的安檢是相對於核二來講它可以比較提早進行所以我想這個未來我們也會持續監督這樣的一個機制是的那大家一起來努力真的把我們的台灣的能源政策好好的來把它做好了謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":12874.416,"end":12901.198,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請蔡議員謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部鞏部長還有我們台電董事長好 請台電董事長"},{"start":12904.759,"end":12920.912,"text":"蔡委好部長好部長因為現在未來產業的一個佈局很重要的就是水跟電我想要先就電的部分來請教一下部長因為嘉義現在台積電已經"},{"start":12922.733,"end":12949.435,"text":"它的先進封裝廠第一廠已經專機完成所以現在大概就是要趕兩年後可以量產那未來台積電還會有第二個廠在明年也會裝機所以我們現在要確保整個電力的供應是無虞的這件事情事實上就會牽扯到說現在馬籌後產業園區在那邊要蓋的一個比較中型以上的一個變電所那它變電所的進度到底是如何呢那個"},{"start":12951.772,"end":12957.283,"text":"跟委員報告就算你如果提到是家科啦家科的部分那個我們其實"},{"start":12958.137,"end":12985.054,"text":"因为要因应半导体产业的快速发展我们现在基本上都是先临时供电就是一些临时的变电设备都先处理了因为室内变电站开的时间会比较长那马筹的部分其实我们有比较早提早布局如果说马筹后的厂商有需要用电那我们一定会想办法提早供电那至于我们要办的DS就是那个"},{"start":12986.815,"end":13008.827,"text":"配電變電站 董事長我想你知道啦整個供電是整個區域的供電所以馬籌後的興建起來事實上它可以它是可以涵蓋是很大的一個區域的甚至說未來可能鋪子傳統的變電所它也會達到它的一個歷史的一個任務它可能就會結束了嘛那關鍵都還是在於馬籌後的這一個變電所什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":13010.248,"end":13033.626,"text":"董事長你跟我說一下看明確的時間我們盡量在趕啦因為一個如果是室內型的變電站時間真的會要比較長那我們希望看2030能不能夠提早在2030年底以前把它給做起來但這個對我們的同仁來講要求是比較嚴格的沒關係 我覺得說這個東西雖然要求嚴格 但是很壞啦"},{"start":13035.463,"end":13051.554,"text":"因為整個區域用電而且未來嘉義的產業的佈局都是在這裡跟委員報告地方政府如果支持我們蓋DSES其實台電公司都會盡全力快速的來趕工"},{"start":13052.695,"end":13069.615,"text":"因为我们现在是有些主要是遇到有些DSES没办法取得用地或是没办法变更来或是拿到建造来建董事长但是我们嘉义还好因为我们嘉义是用产业园区的土地没错所以相对只要有支持我们都会加速来盖"},{"start":13070.155,"end":13098.306,"text":"對 我們這邊相對跟你們之間大家互動是良好的那應該整個速度就加速來著是的 是的 好不好好 那董事長可以先回那我再來問水的問題水的問題就會涉及到了接下來嘉義縣的一個海淡廠那現在海淡廠的一個還在環境影響評估中那水的問題可能未來這個海淡廠要提供很很重要的一個水的供應那這個海淡廠目前"},{"start":13099.232,"end":13120.808,"text":"推估是2032年才會開始供水每天的供水最大量是10萬公噸那想要請教部長 這個進度都沒有變嗎我請同仁說明一下好不好我再check一下好不好進度沒有變嗎"},{"start":13122.932,"end":13148.804,"text":"好那可是我要跟部長說一個狀況我目前掌握的訊息是說未來因為我們這個海淡產是會在布袋三港外圍去做填海造陸部長這部分你清楚嗎對可是現在卻把填海造陸的成本要把它算入為未來這一個海淡產它的興建成本所以可能就會影響到未來水費的問題那問題就很大了"},{"start":13150.965,"end":13167.731,"text":"部長因為這是兩件事 填海造陸是為了我們地方要增加腹地所以那是填海造陸你不能說把填海造陸因為未來我們海淡廠就希望在這個填海造陸的地方興建海淡廠所以填海造陸的成本也是海淡廠的成本"},{"start":13169.107,"end":13186.055,"text":"保證 你聽我的意思嘛所以這個東西可能你要幫我們回去可能要看一下該離新還是要離新當然是 還沒發生啦還沒發生可是我現在有聽到這樣的狀況那可能以後大家就卻步了啊說哇 那個成本怎麼忽然間暴增這麼多"},{"start":13186.795,"end":13201.423,"text":"是是是因為填海造陸他是大概規劃了十幾公頃十幾公頃的海灘場也沒用這麼大所以你把填海造陸的成本算在未來的費用的計算那這件事不合理是是是好不好"},{"start":13202.343,"end":13227.01,"text":"第二個我再來跟就是說現在有談到產業園區這個用電的升級所以我們希望在產業園區或是科學園區去推動公共的一個儲能去有這個儲能的一個補助那科學園區會試辦那未來產業園區那我想要跟部長來建議的就是說事實上我們知道未來整個因應整個AI的一個發展"},{"start":13229.531,"end":13256.013,"text":"那AI是需要用大量的電的所以這一個如果我們在產業園區不能由經濟部直接來盤整一個地方然後由經濟部我們的產業園區我們的管理局直接就來經營儲能有沒有辦法這樣現在我不曉得因為管理局他現在賦予他的這個"},{"start":13258.149,"end":13286.279,"text":"任務啦沒有這塊啦我意思是說你記得我們覺得要補助手上每天去辦儲能我覺得說產業園區如果直接可以用更就是說我們乾脆更積極一點我們直接在產業園區盤整適當的地方做儲能設備那我們可以在離風用電的時候把電力儲起來然後在尖峰用電的時候再給產業園區的商家去使用這些電的話"},{"start":13287.159,"end":13314.229,"text":"事實上你只要規劃妥當的話這件事對於整個產業園區用電的效能會有大幅的一個精進部長我覺得這部分你們可以斟酌一下那我們來思考一下好不好跟這個園區就是討論一下如果可以這樣做的話我們就來試辦看看可以試辦看看嘛因為這樣的話對於整個用電對不對有時候他沒用電的時候我們就讓他去欠電啊是是是環境一樣都是使用者付費啊"},{"start":13315.349,"end":13337.025,"text":"這一些需要用到 尖峰時候需要用到多一點電的商家他自然就要付費啊只是說這樣的一個設備由我們產業園區區自己來管理 是好不好因為這樣量比較會大 除了東西事實上有時候都需要量體是要一定的 好不好部長可以先回 趙委再給我一分鐘那我要請國發會主委請國發會主委"},{"start":13342.683,"end":13369.74,"text":"委員好主委事實上我要延續剛剛這個富奎委員有去詢問的因為這一次關稅的影響經濟部之外事實上農業部是有的那我們有編列180億但是我要跟主委講事實上我們大家都忽略一件事就是說這一次的關稅事實上對隨產品尤其是出口到過去出口不管是出口到美國或其他國家"},{"start":13371.401,"end":13386.836,"text":"對於有出口的水產品傷害非常的大這個傷害大是為什麼呢是因為在關稅不穩定的時候很多事實上在進口水產品的他家都大量進了他就那時候都已經滿倉了啦他都進滿了那進滿了後現在這些水產品開始回賣了"},{"start":13394.443,"end":13414.519,"text":"抓 他們不需要你也知道說水產品那些東西你如果不買到 它是要繼續持續持續持續你像說鱸魚鱸魚的生長大概是六個月八個月牠如果到六、八歲就不是它適當的一個規格所以你現在鱸魚你現在沒出沒出"},{"start":13416.664,"end":13444.013,"text":"他超過規格後 哇 最慘的是包括很多一些大型的商家你像Costco他就說 哇 你這個漁民你這隻魚已經過大隻了太大隻了 啊不是 他們要餓了所以就會造成惡性循環不只是鱸魚喔 我覺得未來我們台灣釣我們的烏龜魚會有這樣的狀況喔這個是有一點 因為之前的囤貨造成整個水產品它現在是一個供應非常不順的狀況"},{"start":13445.458,"end":13468.836,"text":"然後我要跟主委直接建議啦這個時候要解決這個問題勒事實上就是要想辦法最快的時間先去化現在口袋裡面這些東西所以可能你要我們現在有特別預算嘛180億來協助這些農水產品的話可能就是說國軍可以吃鱸魚啊鱸魚這麼健康學校營養午餐來吃一下鱸魚啊過去"},{"start":13470.797,"end":13497.342,"text":"因為這個很貴 漏魚是省比較貴的 沒機會我們現在有特別預算 來去化讓孩子吃 健康 營養 到這個讚的肥腸 這樣有什麼不好有跟委員報告 其實我們有針對那一個農漁會有在推所謂的冷鏈設備的新建跟升級這個也可以把部分的那一些庫存的這些 沒有賣出去的可以把它冷凍起來 然後做一些加工處理"},{"start":13498.022,"end":13509.851,"text":"那是網加工方面但是我要跟主委講的就是說我看到的是因為他們沒有辦法銷售結果就是變成說養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了"},{"start":13533.353,"end":13555.379,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請林楚英委員 林楚英 林楚英委員不在現場我們請馬文君委員 馬文君 馬文君委員不在現場我們請葉元之委員請做詢問我請那個談判代表 經濟部長好 請兩位"},{"start":13561.846,"end":13579.632,"text":"先請教一下談判代表那個我先問一下代表因為我們現在很多訊息我們都是從外媒得知然後政府機關雖然有來報告但是講的都非常有限我先問一個問題如果到時候代表談出來的結果國人不接受民意反彈很大立法院也不通過那結果會怎麼樣"},{"start":13582.23,"end":13611.899,"text":"我想這個問題我們最重要是我們談判的結果是對國人是好的對產業是好的那是你認為嘛你是要接受監督你當然說自己好啊如果說大家不覺得好如果輿論沸騰反對那來得及嗎如果我們跟美方達成一個共識之後這個會馬上跟國會報告但是如果我們不接受的話美方他可能就要回到原來的稅率了"},{"start":13612.723,"end":13632.792,"text":"就是說你談完之後你會來國會報告那如果國會覺得你談一賽太爛了然後民意也覺得非常爛然後大家就會說不行然後你就會跟美國講說我們不接受然後重談是這樣嗎我想美國對這一方面很在意因為這一次他的目標就是要降低他們的貿易區域回答我的問題啦"},{"start":13635.28,"end":13655.229,"text":"談判的結果是他要給我們對等降稅然後呢不疊加當然是對等不要繞圈圈啦因為我們現在當然是希望說談到關稅低嘛對不對最好15如果是15%就跟日本韓國歐盟都一樣嘛然後不要疊加嘛但是是看我們要付出什麼代價嘛那如果我們付出的代價"},{"start":13658.51,"end":13678.295,"text":"讓輿論認為說這個代價好像超過我們的想像那大家不接受那來得及嗎你會再去跟美國講重談嗎我是問一個這個問題啦程序性的問題啦程序性的問題在這一方面就是會重談嘛美國是要我們執行他才會給我們剛剛講的優惠性的這些代價所以就變成說你變白談了再去重談嘛"},{"start":13678.655,"end":13702.241,"text":"否則他就不會執行的嘛就是這樣嘛所以我為什麼問這個問題呢就是因為其他國家都會適當揭露嘛因為他們會一方面了解民意的看法一方面跟美方談判有的時候國內的意見有成為對外談判的一個籌碼但我們台灣這邊就完全避而不談所以就是一翻兩瞪眼要嘛就是跟國會或是民眾講說你就接受不然就要重談要嘛就是說這個"},{"start":13704.602,"end":13730.625,"text":"不然怎麼辦我覺得這個其實是蠻不負責的這跟之前民進黨自己要求什麼兩岸談服貿一定要公平公正公開啊什麼那個是背道而馳的啦那沒關係我們就先姑且相信你們談的是國人會接受那現在一直講說一個台灣模式我覺得你們講的很具體但大家聽得非常模糊我想請教一下按照日本韓國他們的做法是說"},{"start":13731.306,"end":13746.274,"text":"要降關稅可以你日本韓國你要投資我多少金額或者是要跟我採購多少金額是這樣的模式在台灣不是嘛你們意思這樣對不對所以我們是用G2G跟他們的模式不一樣他們是要看採購多少投資多少才能決定降關稅我們不用是這個意思嗎"},{"start":13748.427,"end":13776.606,"text":"我們的模式是依照我們在整個談判裡面的最佳的模式就是希望得到最好也協助業者在外面不要講空話啦不要講空話我一直想什麼叫台灣模式嘛日本韓國是說投資多少金額比如說日本投資5500億金額或者是採購多少東西換得關稅下降嘛那我們不是用這樣的模式嘛我們是用比如說什麼G2G啊協助美國的什麼產業形成聚落我們是用這種模式嘛對吧"},{"start":13777.486,"end":13790.877,"text":"是吧 部長是這樣嗎那為什麼我們採購的都不算我們不是有軍購嗎韓國也把軍購納入就是降低關稅的籌碼之一歐盟也把軍購納入降低關稅的籌碼之一為什麼台灣就不能納入"},{"start":13792.452,"end":13816.428,"text":"我們在談判裡面有商業機會包括投資及採購但是我看其他國家有些大部分也是沒有把軍購放在他的有啊歐盟就有啊韓國也有啊為什麼我們不拿這個好第二個具體問一下台灣模式是說我們廠商到美國去去投資形成產業聚落像科學園區那樣請問一下你承諾美國多少產值承諾美國多少產值"},{"start":13822.233,"end":13848.391,"text":"這是部長回答還是代表回答沒有這樣的承諾沒有承諾產值所以我們到時候講一講跟他們說不好意思我們的廠商都沒有要過去零產值美國也接受嗎不是我們當然有跟企業界有互相的盤點跟溝通企業界有這樣的意願以後我們才協助他們他們如果完全沒有意願如果我們完全沒有意願所以到時候假設我們的廠商都沒有意願"},{"start":13849.171,"end":13872.237,"text":"然後都沒有過去 美國接受嗎沒有 我們已經有做過溝通了所以現在是 你現在計算是多少產值要過去多少要過去這個等談判完以後再向委員報告又是談判完 不是你這個什麼都不能講所以其實你也是有承諾一個產值不是 這個也牽涉到所以其實你也是有承諾一個產值"},{"start":13873.777,"end":13891.356,"text":"那就不用騙了就是你也是告訴他們講說我們用G2G的方式軍購那些都不算但是我們承諾你我們多少廠商要過去投資然後會幫你創造多少就業機會跟多少產值可不可以換得我們的關稅下降是這樣嘛 模式是這樣嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":13892.664,"end":13910.898,"text":"還是要廠商有意願我們才會協助廠商有沒有意願也是你說算了有時候你也會經濟部那麼廠商多少也會怕政府不會啦我們都協助廠商第二你不能講第三我提醒一下不能把說產業外移都講得好像這麼的美好"},{"start":13911.658,"end":13931.119,"text":"如果產業萬一之後沒好的話我們台灣何必希望其他國家人到我們這邊投資呢因為到我們這邊投資可以增加我們的產值可以提高我們就業機會嘛所以我們的公司去國外投資多多少少也會影響到我們這裡的就業機會跟產值嘛所以立足台灣是第一步嘛"},{"start":13931.579,"end":13958.256,"text":"才有第二步當然啦不是啦他本來可以在台灣多設一個廠嘛現在就配合政府政策就到美國去設廠嘛而且到美國美國設廠也不見得有利嘛台積電現在亞利桑那州獲利就減少啦但是還是在獲利就減少啦但是還是在獲利啦但是減少那頭CP值嘛算CP值嘛再問一個啦那現在剛剛很多委員在問齁那個路透社有報導說台積電要去美國幫忙幫忙訓練勞工但是你們否認嘛"},{"start":13961.398,"end":13983.069,"text":"因為談判沒有談到這個東西今天我剛剛看了那個前英特爾的執行長說啊他說就算台灣的有些產業移到美國去生產晶片也沒辦法降低美國對台灣晶片的依賴啦除非經濟版圖位移他說除非做到經濟版圖位移不然你知道嗎你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":13984.159,"end":14007.255,"text":"但是我不知道所謂的經濟版圖只有幾家公司去沒用啦最好是整個產業鏈移過去啦所以美國會加大力道啦那我就請教一下現在挪威人到英特爾去美國是英特爾的大股東吧最大股東政府10%所以美國政府其實影響到英特爾"},{"start":14008.291,"end":14033.471,"text":"那些挪威人假設帶著台灣的2奈米的機密到了英特爾去認知我看到英特爾很歡迎他很歡迎他加入啦很歡迎他加入那請教一下我們現在政府有沒有去跟美國談就說這個事情不道德喔因為我們已經在司法偵辦當中我們在司法偵辦當中我們不知道他帶什麼機密去請美國給我一個承諾假設他有帶機密去的話你不能用"},{"start":14035.066,"end":14052.012,"text":"我們現在很有善要幫你形成產業聚落可能你未來是我們台灣的最大競爭者但是我們還是願意可是對於這個機密到那邊去政府態度是什麼有沒有跟美國政府講你不能用可不可以靜待司法調查之後大家再來談有沒有這個態度"},{"start":14052.992,"end":14070.053,"text":"我相信第一個我們司法已經調查了用國安法或者是那台積電也用營業秘密法提告了那我相信就是說美國企業他也知道因為提告可能有官司上的一些情形那他"},{"start":14071.187,"end":14095.352,"text":"不是啦 部長你都說你相信你能夠預測川普嗎你不能說你相信 我說你有沒有去交涉這件事情他的CEO有另外說明 他說他們沒有用到相關機密性的這個技術所以你覺得你覺得你相信嗎所以政府就不用做任何事情就我們完全相信人性本善"},{"start":14096.226,"end":14122.606,"text":"我完全相信川普但川普從頭到尾都認為是台灣偷走美國的晶片沒有啊 現在在司法調查啊司法調查是現在針對這個個案調查我現在是說在同時能不能做防弊的動作嘛就去跟美國交涉說你這個就算有的話你不能用否則的話他用了你現在調查出來有什麼意義勒你只是對他個人的所謂的懲罰而已嘛但對台灣產業的機密的外移政府做了什麼嘛"},{"start":14124.363,"end":14147.234,"text":"我們再請行政部門再給委員說明清楚因為你們大概這個回答的都雞同鴨講他主要是要請教委員請教的是說我們政府在這個過程當中有協助去了解什麼有沒有跟美方去洽談那你們現在所說的對啊因為美國政府是英特爾的股東嘛請會後再跟委員來說明清楚好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14153.652,"end":14178.325,"text":"谢谢 接下来我们中嘉宾委员中嘉宾中嘉宾委员不在现场我们现在登记发言的除了不在现场之外其余的军语发言完毕询答结束由委员陈冠廷委员徐欣怡委员张家俊委员所提书面资料列入记录刊登公报书面质询及未及答复的部分请相关单位于一周之内以书面答复或者是并"},{"start":14179.065,"end":14205.646,"text":"副职本会那委员另外要求期限的我们请也要从其所定那今天我要谢谢所有的行政部门以及我们媒体朋友还有我们的议事组人员我们特别针对于关税的这个议题是全民产业大家都非常关心特别指出两件事情请行政部门部长请行政部门在我们一直强调台湾模式那我们的"},{"start":14206.206,"end":14228.479,"text":"台商如果到那边去投资的时候我们的保护要怎么样保护1952年在我们的经济部的网站里头都有说明美国到我们台湾来的时候来投资我们有一个协议保护协议针对于美国人美国的资金到台湾来我们有签了一个1952年的协议保护协议那我方"},{"start":14229.139,"end":14258.329,"text":"我们如果台湾到美国去那我们有没有保护协议有没有这个议题请你们列入那第二个双重课税的问题这也是产业非常非常关心的刚刚因为那个杨总代表谈论的是你们在努力当中所以本席也特别综合大家宝贵的意见这两项也请相关单位你们完整的书面资料来复制给我们的本席跟我们的经济委员会"},{"start":14258.809,"end":14261.973,"text":"好 我們的開會今天謝謝大家辛苦了 散會"}]}},{"id":"166044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7a51530d858b049ad96d3b95029a3bab6c185e1ae13c21000b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:06:42 - 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行政院的部分"},{"start":118.322,"end":142.897,"text":"行政院院長的部分我想他在回答的時候我有在場他的意思就是說明這些這個條例正在行政院的審議當中他本人還沒有看到這個只是我們先送條例到行政院的審議那由政務委員再做一個相關部會跨部會的一個協調所以他還沒看到因為他最後還沒有審議完成那現在當然已經經過審議完成之後送到這個院長院長也召開這個院會通過了"},{"start":146.098,"end":173.667,"text":"我覺得這個當然是一個很大的一筆錢所以大家當然會檢驗說這個錢用的用途然後有沒有亂用還有就是有一些錢債的部分我們之前也都編了很多國防預算特別預算譬如說我問海昆號當然我不是想要問那個毛或水密門但我知道說它裡面好像有一個系統的問題先確定一個資訊我們在國防部在2019年6年前那時候花了36億"},{"start":175.646,"end":201.757,"text":"買了一台就是大午劍建構了一台大午劍對吧有這個事吧大午劍它被監察院審計部糾正認為說測試的工序不符規範特別是有一個整合式的載台管理系統不符程序然後至今有74項缺失到目前為止都沒有改正有這件事情嗎報告委員有的那這個大午劍準備怎麼處理"},{"start":204.706,"end":227.009,"text":"根據委員報告,它因為裝備的一個貨裝裝件之後它的軟體測試需要一點時間所以它當初就一個合宜的檢驗次序做了一個調整對,但是它現在系統有沒有缺失現在測試都正常,沒有問題現在測試完全正常是好,那請問一下,這個大武建的系統廠商是不是跟海昆號原型建的廠商是同一家"},{"start":229.78,"end":240.629,"text":"跟委員報告這個詳細商情我們不在這邊透露但是它的系統跟操作運作是分開來做一個測試所以海昆號在系統的測試方面有沒有問題"},{"start":241.71,"end":269.09,"text":"現在目前都已經逐步把IPMS都已經完成到我們各項各階段測試以前現在都是符合所以它的系統是完全都沒問題的對 現在逐步在做這個邁向它測試前的一個整備每次的這個測試我們都會做一些安全評估它現在目前是沒問題所以海昆號現在系統沒有問題是好 那另外再請教一下因為有關於海昆號之前是黃曙光 前司令在推動"},{"start":270.19,"end":275.762,"text":"那後來彈劃嘛 彈劃現在也走了請問一下海軍現在人力上接得起來嗎"},{"start":276.711,"end":303.252,"text":"跟委員報告 那我想從黃之偉持召集人之後那海軍現在就負責整個的專案管理那會配合的台船跟我們專案團隊會複起這個整個在網部督管下他有一個編組會持續按部就班來推動後續的一個這個測試跟交建的一個任務所以你們現在有信心海昆號到底什麼時候可以交檢因為一直在跳票到底什麼時候可以交檢"},{"start":303.942,"end":329.42,"text":"報告委員 我們建造階段是準時的但是就是在測試的時候需要一點當然啦 沒有人這樣分的啦現在人家問交件不會管說你建造測試報告委員 還是要說明就是說我們的建造的階段是符合他的規定沒關係 沒關係 我就問一個總的期限嘛 之前是有訂11月底嘛那今天11月已經跳票了 那下一次總是有訂一個短期目標嘛 到底什麼時候我們會逐段來做 現在已經完成了扶航"},{"start":330.04,"end":354.443,"text":"沒有沒有 不要扯這些好不好因為我們時間有限部長 因為之前是講11月底啦那現在跳票了嘛所以現在大概新的目標是什麼時候可以交檢我們已經在說明在安全跟品質確保的前提之下我們逐步完成那現在補航完成之後我們還是要進行這一個潛水潛水我知道啦 這個程序大家都已經都很清楚了因為海昆號大家都了解"},{"start":355.323,"end":383.275,"text":"程序到底是怎麼完成哪些程序可以交接我是問時間點以前都敢講現在為什麼就不敢講了我們那個時間點11月底是依照合約的推展那現在我們根據這個相關的這個測試你合約當初在訂的時候也會有一個預估嘛測試的順利那測試進程順利部長如果說連一個目標都不敢講的話代表說你們也沒信心嘛"},{"start":383.939,"end":412.248,"text":"因為你之前在訂合約為什麼敢訂目標因為你們有個期程你認為說按部就班可以完成所以你會訂一個11月底那現在你們感覺就沒有信心了你們也不覺得你們可以解決到可能很難解決問題所以你現在連講都不敢講沒有我們現在認為沒有一些那請問明年中有可能明年中有可能交件嗎我們測試還是要逐步我當然知道我當然知道我沒有趕你我只是問一個目標值所以明年中有可能交件嗎"},{"start":413.411,"end":427.05,"text":"我想我們還是會持續的按階段來就像F16V一樣啊那時候也是說什麼時間應該給我們幾架後來一直往後延但是不管是往後延怎麼樣也是有一個短期目標現在海昆號是連短期目標都沒有"},{"start":428.93,"end":442.692,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在已經今天是12月1號那我們復航過了我們現在下一個階段就是要準備做潛航那當我們在達到這個潛航的這個運作跟測試之後我們才會比較精準的一個時間開跟委員報告"},{"start":444.43,"end":458.642,"text":"所以所以潛航是什麼時候要完成潛航我們目前開始就在做潛航的前程對大概什麼時候要完成因為這個目前還在做整個的整理跟潛航的整備那我們整備完之後你們今天回答都好空洞感覺都沒有做任何準備耶"},{"start":459.463,"end":484.275,"text":"你明明就知道說這件事情是大家很關注的而且在11月底已經跳票那今天到立法院我相信很多人會問這個問題結果你來你都完全沒有做任何準備就一直不斷來重複那個程序但是對於期程你完全講不出來抱歉我們上禮才剛完成兩次扶航對啊那所以那你總是我們現在就在做下一個潛航的準備對下一個潛航大概什麼時候嘛然後什麼時候會交接我不覺得這個會那麼難回答欸"},{"start":486.092,"end":504.771,"text":"我不覺得那麼 如果說你們是一個負責任的單位的話這有那麼難回答嗎我們就是等到這個相關的潛水潛艇規劃執行試試是牛年馬月嗎 還是什麼時候 為什麼講不出來我們要按照這個測試的結果才能當然啊 那你總是要有一個目標啊否則的話就盡量拖就好了啊"},{"start":505.393,"end":517.045,"text":"我們沒有會盡量拖我們當然要盡快的按照這個不是啦 我們相關的這個節點然後來盡快的來答那時間點為什麼會講不出來如果說你都按部就班的話總是有時間點啊為什麼講不出來我們還是會依照相關的你就是一直不要再跳針了啦所以現在沒有信心嘛"},{"start":526.96,"end":534.974,"text":"沒有信心是不是我們有信心會完成沒有信心有信心會完成但不知道是何時啦節點來逐步的來進行好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af71948e69fd15c949f96d3b95029a3bab6c185e1ae13c21000aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:54:54 - 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委員好部長好 今天的專報我們看到國防部是針對軍人薪資待遇現行的做法跟未來的調整規劃來做一個報告那實際上去年賴總統上任以來呢我們也聽到了這個消息那也提出了五項加急的調整方案"},{"start":32.992,"end":51.933,"text":"那在4月1號呢也開始生效那我是想跟部長就教就是我們從現在的軍隊的邊線比還有志願役的人數節節下降逐年下降我們可以知道說真的這個是為了要解決國軍的人才慌啊"},{"start":52.654,"end":72.621,"text":"那我們也知道說現在不分官科官兵從一兵到上將大概這樣調整之後也大概整體平均也都增加了一萬多的薪水那我只是想先請教一下部長您覺得軍官跟士官目前都很缺那哪個比較缺"},{"start":76.6,"end":98.353,"text":"軍官跟士官我想應該根據部隊的不同有不同的一個邊線比沒有辦法直接這樣子來說吧如果說如果你總體的邊線比來比的話那當然還是軍官的邊線比會比較高一點總體啦但是每個部隊應該也都有不同"},{"start":99.013,"end":125.083,"text":"跟我們的認知差不多啦那最主要是說因為我作為一個原住民我們原住民投入國軍的比例相當的高所以我們自己的親友身邊的朋友其實軍人非常的多那也經常聊天可以知道他們的想法那我以我們原住民來講我聽到的他們其實比較不喜歡去當軍官讀軍校軍官的預備因為要輪調"},{"start":127.944,"end":148.396,"text":"他們比較喜歡的是士官因為可以常住除了離家近有的不能離家近他們也可以舉家搬遷孩子的一個就業 就學其實對他們來講他們比較能夠照顧家庭可是我們看軍官他的招募管道非常的多元"},{"start":148.996,"end":175.488,"text":"除了正期班也有專業軍官班常備軍官班預備軍官班那甚至引進美國的這些年有一個叫ROTC可是我們反觀士官他就是二專班還有預備士官班那為什麼我要特別提到這個因為我們看到這個ROTC這些年他其實我們看到他的這個計畫招募的人員跟他報名的跟他錄取的"},{"start":176.508,"end":201.919,"text":"感覺上好像高錄取率那他的退訓呢也是高退訓率所以立法院的法治局其實在過去也曾經做過一個預警就是提到說這個ROTC的機制恐怕有待通盤檢討那我在這邊想請教一下部長有檢討嗎 檢討出有什麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":204.023,"end":215.278,"text":"我想ROTC它主要是招募民間的大學在招募的過程當中我們有一個"},{"start":218.447,"end":233.156,"text":"就是說招募的成效者招募應該說招募進來之後那麼他會有一個適應的一個問題那我想這個部分我們可能還要再"},{"start":235.136,"end":249.522,"text":"這個確實要通寒的一個檢討說這個退訓高的一個原因最重要當然就是說我們剛開始應該還是在廣招這個人才"},{"start":251.002,"end":273.652,"text":"在這個期間當中他民間大學他也許他的選擇性會比較高所以他就會有可以選擇但是我們認為這個管道還是很重要我們還是要持續來維繫謝謝部長的回應其實不外乎幾個原因啦當然我們都知道有時候是因為志趣不合他選擇離開"},{"start":275.313,"end":301.848,"text":"那有時候呢實在是因為他可能能力不急所以呢被迫離開那不管是什麼原因甚至是招募的時候招募人員可能呢為了要能夠看到數字所以呢也許他適合陸戰的跑到海軍然後發現自己不適合其實原因很多啦這個部分真的是希望你們能夠通盤檢討但是我還是想要回到就是比起軍官"},{"start":302.788,"end":325.717,"text":"我們很多人更想要擔任士官是因為他的誘因因為很多人他想要他可能就不選擇升學了他希望可以趕快賺錢他也不想多花時間讀大學而且士官比較不用輪調他可以選擇做到退休做一輩子但是他的培育的管道卻比軍官少很多"},{"start":326.457,"end":342.698,"text":"那實際上我們一個連來講假設我們就以100人的左右的連來講好了可能軍官需要五位那士官需要三四十位所以其實士官的需求量是蠻好的那我看到國防部"},{"start":343.158,"end":359.052,"text":"你們有在10月份的時候寫到一個精進士官制度那立法院的法治局在109年的時候他也有一個延期精進士官的制度所以呢我其實這個地方來是想要見請部長既然我們都有"},{"start":359.612,"end":382.708,"text":"就是學美國這種ROTC的一個預備軍官的做法我希望士官的招募也能夠有類似的管道提升我們士官招募的成效為什麼我這樣講我跟部長說我們原住民就讀大專院校去年你看看一般生全體國民第一名大概是喜歡電機電子資訊企業等等原住民競技運動非常多"},{"start":389.452,"end":412.152,"text":"那我現在就是要提到我們很多的退役的軍官士官他們在聊天的時候有提到因為他們有一些轉職去國高中去教柔道啊 技籍啊他們都告訴我們說其實那些從小讀體育班的這些運動員他們其實比軍人還棒他們就只差什麼"},{"start":416.021,"end":420.825,"text":"沒有戰技訓練但是他們各方面體能啊他們的所有的那個都比我們的一般軍人還要棒更重要的是服從性很高因為他們從小就是在球隊啊或者是體育班他們對教練的服從度非常的高所以我想先請教一下"},{"start":436.738,"end":460.456,"text":"就是我們覺得不應該浪費這些運動員特別是原住民的運動員部長你是不是認同如果這些運動員原住民的體育生因為95%都會退場沒有辦法每個人都成為國手沒有辦法成為職棒明星所以如果他們能夠加入國軍成為一個優秀的集戰力部長您覺得如何"},{"start":461.654,"end":482.607,"text":"我想首先第一點就是ROTC它是就招生為軍官這個部分應該是有一個法源的依據就士官的部分的話我們就沒有法源就可能要做一個法源上面的一個探討那至於有關您認為這個原住民的體育生我想我們可以來檢討"},{"start":484.148,"end":511.671,"text":"包委員陸軍參謀長因為先前我也在陸軍官校擔任過校長包委員連議次長我簡單的就兩個面向向您報告第一個ROTC因為他是一個四年制的學士大學教育可是在現行的士官招考他只要大專畢業所以如果把他ROTC去設計還有士官的話其實是增加了當然是提升了素質可是是增加了士官就任的一個門檻因為時間的關係我直接說明"},{"start":513.532,"end":525.819,"text":"事實上我們現在陸軍官專校這個所謂常備役都有運動科學的科系是那所以這方面也有相當多優秀的原住民來報考這是一個管道向您報告謝謝校長參謀長我們的原住民族教育法第24條其實在108年就有正式入法有給他法源"},{"start":536.565,"end":556.788,"text":"就是可以呢去開設原專班在專科以上學校開設原專班那截至目前113年度呢全國已經有26校41個系所開設那我去調查了一下目前全台的二專有12所那實際上這些二專"},{"start":557.669,"end":567.891,"text":"他就可以來開設士官的一個原專班那我覺得這個部分是不用去煩惱那至於課程設計我自己是覺得啦他如果能夠在他的課程設計裡面可能60%或70%教戰技教他一些領導的一些技能課程那甚至是利用這兩年"},{"start":582.114,"end":602.679,"text":"去取得一些證照 像急救的 初級防護救生員 汽車駕照 體能訓練員等等利用這兩年去完成這樣他們是運動員的底子我覺得他們對於我們的國軍來講那真的是太棒了更重要的是文化在地國家的認同"},{"start":603.399,"end":614.671,"text":"非常的高然後運動的人才成為國軍的集戰力那強化他的戰力跟他的穩定的一個留任所以他未來不論是運動軍事的雙證照他退役之後的一個轉職等等我認為這個對國軍來講真的是太好了所以請教一下部長"},{"start":622.759,"end":640.549,"text":"您對於這樣一個類似不要講ROTC我不是講ROTC不是大學那能不能夠來做這樣的一個教育部也能配合法規都能配合那我只是問部長您覺得我們應不應該把這一些運動員拉進到我們的國軍裡面"},{"start":643.789,"end":665.957,"text":"根據剛剛委員的質詢內容我們下去以後我們來檢視一下看看這樣子你剛剛提到的是原住民的相關的法規如果您同意兩週內到辦公室我們來討論可以嗎或者你們兩週內提供書面規劃報告我請他們先跟到委員那邊去做一個溝通謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af78b96c07b08a72a9396d3b95029a3bab617e9c371ce254979a11b46a314bfa5925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:43:13 - 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是不是如此啊"},{"start":140.578,"end":167.741,"text":"我想總統投訴外媒也是在尋求說國際上對我們依照我們防衛作戰的需求提高這個國防預算然後讓跟國際做一個戰略溝通讓國際能夠了解我們有自我防衛的決心有捍衛我們民主價值的一個決心是 讓國際了解當然要做但是讓國人了解應該是更重要吧這一些的預算都是人民的納稅錢"},{"start":169.099,"end":191.536,"text":"所以在不清楚兵力到底是怎麼樣通通都不知道所以總統台會特別有召開記者會有做一個說明那我們也做一個說明那我這邊還是要說明就是我們現在在條例的一個階段那現在提出一個經費的上限然後我們也有說明採購的一些項目那具體的這個經費的編列要等到大院能夠通過這個條例哇 那個事大條喔"},{"start":194.127,"end":199.672,"text":"因為你現在也不知那條例也還在審但是總統已經對外說"},{"start":202.564,"end":229.896,"text":"那人民到底總統就是說明我們這個條例提出來經費的我們要提出來的整個的所需要的經費上限就新台幣一兆兩千五百所以部長這是史上最高的軍購特別預算那不管過去藍綠都執政的時候沒有提過這麼高這是史上也等於是過去國防部四個特別預算的一個總和所以本期要再請教"},{"start":230.976,"end":257.662,"text":"如果我們現在所說的你們說是這1.25兆全數要舉債嗎按照這個規定相關的這個預算條例預算條例來看就是會有以稅計歷年的以前年度稅計剩餘然後還有這個舉債這個兩個管道那這可能會讓我們政府舉債突破天際喔"},{"start":259.593,"end":282.709,"text":"這有可能喔所以本席再請教我們這個條例裡面它有說明就是說它還是要符合財政紀律法14條第二項規定意旨就是舉債比例要有一定的一個控管的機制所以請教部長整個預算跟特別預算在條例的適應期間的舉債額度的合計數不能夠超過該期間總預算跟特別預算稅數總額合計數的15%部長"},{"start":286.432,"end":294.736,"text":"過去被延遲交貨的採購案都還沒有解決那我們現在衝突的繼續採購會不會把人民當當大頭 當攀納我想我們這個整個的預算的籌編都是根據我們的整體防衛作戰的需求考量敵情的威脅來編列"},{"start":313.502,"end":336.188,"text":"國家的安全當然全民會支持 本席也支持但是 本席要再次強調不能讓人民當攀囊 當體管制所以本席要請教在野黨提出了普發現金修正財務法在當時都是被罵的臭頭但是政府 要謝謝政府終於聽到明末普發現金現在在執行中"},{"start":337.088,"end":357.643,"text":"但是我們看到為了軍人加薪預算一年只有300億這個充實國防當然是要為軍人加薪啊部長 你同意為軍人加薪嗎依法 立法院三讀通過了依法 編列 你會編列嗎 你同意嗎"},{"start":359.58,"end":383.153,"text":"國防部的一貫的立場就是要不斷的去整體調整這個軍人的待遇結構所以我們一直在說明我們會依照一直持續來檢討修訂各項的勤務佳績的支領對象種類跟法律請針對本席的提問依法台灣是一個民主法治國家立法院三讀通過一年只有300億"},{"start":385.234,"end":395.28,"text":"跟我們現在所提的軍購軍購再怎麼樣沒有人執行這怎麼辦所以本席再一次請教您身為國防部長啊那您會同意軍人加薪編列這300億嗎依法編列"},{"start":404.086,"end":428.632,"text":"我想就這個您講的 提到的這個軍人待遇條例直接規範這個資源一加幾 三萬塊這個部分這個在宣導的時候 默併制效果非常好行政院說明已經依照憲政的精神提出釋憲那基於行政議題的原則你身為國防部長 本席要請教 部長你是軍人的大家長你同不同意依法編列這三百億"},{"start":429.335,"end":433.698,"text":"我們會持續檢討修訂各項的行務佳績我們認為要從整個軍人待遇的結構來檢討整個我們認為所需要編列的這個相關的這些預算來達到我們提高我們相關國防人力戰力的一個需求的一個精確的目標我們會朝這個方向一直持續來努力你不回答本席"},{"start":456.755,"end":486.241,"text":"本席不願意解讀說你不願意編但是我們希望你身為部長依法行政是是務必要做的那同時我們也知道你要怎麼樣讓國軍能夠安心他才有最強的戰鬥力為國家來奮來奮鬥來奉獻所以本席再請教一句依法三讀通過的一年將近如果跟軍購的預算來比他是"},{"start":488.007,"end":488.236,"text":"他是"},{"start":490.193,"end":519.173,"text":"維護其為所以請教再請教一次部長你會同意依法編列一年將近只有300億讓國軍能夠安心的這筆預算嗎法治化我的回答還是兩點 第一點我們會持續的檢討軍人待遇的這個各項家籍的調升 基於整體的規劃那基於行政 第二點 基於行政一體原則本部尊重行政院對於國家施政各項預算的分配本部尊重行政院 所以本期最後"},{"start":520.013,"end":538.642,"text":"要告訴部長部長一定要為國軍爭取權益不要讓行政院違法不變違法不變所以本席要請教總統先生中國大陸以2027年台灣這個"},{"start":540.854,"end":557.15,"text":"武統台灣為目標那我們發覺這個貼文有所改變了他改為2027年完成武統台灣的準備為目標所以本席要請教在這樣的字眼是以總統先生"},{"start":558.832,"end":580.53,"text":"來對外來指出在臉書上面那所以本席要請教喔這個甚至可能會影響到各項外國人要來台灣投資國內的軍心是不是能夠安定所以本席要請教喔因為會發這樣的臉書的字眼把時間點都定下來"},{"start":581.511,"end":604.513,"text":"那請教是不是有收集到相關的情資所以總統才會這麼樣的來對外宣稱呢我想兩點第一點我們國軍還是以達到這個2027年才達到高戰備能力作為一個目標第二點有關共軍的這個動態我們都會嚴密監控再來觀察那就各項的這個共軍的"},{"start":607.095,"end":630.447,"text":"這個情況我們透過聯合情監的手段也透過跟友盟溝通的多項這樣子的一些管道我們會持續對共軍各項的徵喉來進行全面的掌控所以請教目前我們所提出不管是條例等這些的軍事採購跟軍力的一個部署"},{"start":631.067,"end":656.304,"text":"都是以這樣子的前提2027年的目標來做這個因應嗎 是不是如此我們2027年完成高發戰備能力但是我們現在提出來的這個特別條例包括了軍購 包括了商購 包括了委治案我們都是以我們能夠建立更進一步的多域拒絕能力來強化我們的防衛作戰的能力為目標強化作戰為目標"},{"start":661.427,"end":681.927,"text":"但是如果以總統的高位直接點名中共武力犯台的時間你認為這樣適當嗎我想 剛剛你也提到了我想總統的意思就是要我們做好相關的準備我們也以2027年達成高戰備能力作為一個目標"}]}},{"id":"166041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7acd101b211f6e9c096d3b95029a3bab617e9c371ce254979c47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:32:28 - 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捍衛中華民國我們一起努力但是也很務實的來看我們最近幾個特別預算也好或說我們國防部的相關預算的運用所以剛剛其實本席我想我跟我們執政黨的委員或是全國的民眾其實也很關心就是說如果現在總統提出了1.25兆的特別預算的軍購費用的話"},{"start":34.008,"end":44.293,"text":"你雖然是八年的一個執行期但是針對可能中共的武力犯台或者是他的一個準備的部分我們有多少比例是那兩三年裡面就要先建構完畢"},{"start":46.979,"end":66.372,"text":"您講的是指下來的特別預算嗎是的下來特別預算我想具體的項目等到條例通過以後我們編列預算的時候但你們應該會有一個規劃跟期程嗎因為如果說現在如同總統那天講雖然他到最後自己臉書又改口啊可是他一開始在記者會講的是2027年中共有犯台"},{"start":67.403,"end":93.821,"text":"的時間點後來再改口說的準備但不管是的準備或是犯台那重點在於是2027年是總統已經明確的透過他的嘴以及透過臉書上就寫出來這個時間點嘛那我們想請教一下如果說現在我們在2025年年底討論的這個特別預算那我們未來你拉8年的一個時間那我們自己合理的分配會是怎麼樣有沒有辦法把錢花在倒口上"},{"start":94.888,"end":112.383,"text":"我想我們以8年的時間作為籌購當然主要就是因為因應我們能夠不管是軍購或者是商購或者是偽製的這個期程而來訂定那我們也在之前已經說明就是說我們就我們能夠籌獲的這個項目我們來維持我們的高戰備以2027年作為一個目標"},{"start":118.328,"end":147.218,"text":"那之後我們相關的這些特別條例所需要的這些預算然後來進行相關的這些武器的籌貨的這個期程我想我們還要等到條例通過以後編列的這個預算項目就來向大院做個報告不過之後我們針對特別預算也一定會有專案報告那時候我們再請教好不好那第二個問題大家都知道現在有六千多億我們的軍售是我們付了錢但是武器還沒有來那我們想請教如果未來特別預算"},{"start":148.098,"end":170.545,"text":"的部分執行我們有沒有防避機制或是說我們能夠保障怎麼樣能夠花了錢之後拿到武器這部分我們有比較具體的規劃我們比較具體的規劃保障我們自己我們都如果說要加強台灣的國防能力要加強中華民國的捍衛自主能力我們都支持但重點是怎麼樣把錢花在刀口上能夠確保"},{"start":172.786,"end":199.125,"text":"兩點跟委員報告第一個卡托這個六千六百多億這個數字是錯的我們上次已經說過說明說明一下我們到底要怎麼樣保障我們能夠拿到我們的花了錢拿到我們的武器第二點的部分我們會依據武器交運的期程來管制我們付款的進度同時也會催促美方必須如期如質的把我們要的所以未來我們有可能變成是貨到付款"},{"start":200.708,"end":227.646,"text":"可以吗我们现在做的就是在产线里面他做生产的部分我们做一个支付但是如果说他有产生盐蛋的部分我们会跟美方来做支付然后等到他赶上进度之后我们后续再进行付款但跟现在不是一样吗我只是说现在的做法就已经有造成我们没有办法在时间内F16战机到目前为止没有交任何一架是事实吗"},{"start":228.567,"end":250.047,"text":"是不是他已經開始在進行測試了沒有錯那沒有交付那原本報告的時候是什麼時候要交付其實已經延宕了不是嗎那本席現在只要問還有很多問題我只要請直接明白告知這一次如果說特別預算採購跟之前有沒有什麼不一樣的地方還是我們到目前為止還沒有辦法有沒有"},{"start":254.191,"end":283.38,"text":"不一樣的付款或說不一樣我們可以更保障我們自己能夠準確武器交貨的時間包委員我們這一次的特別預算因為涵蓋了商購、偽製跟軍購所以付款的方式當然會有相當大的不同那至於軍購的這個那保障的部分呢保障的部分偽製跟商購的部分是按照既有政府查購法的規範軍購的部分我們還是會持續要求美方去所以軍購沒有辦法但是偽製商購是還有討論的空間因為它跟軍購本來就不一樣嘛"},{"start":283.82,"end":286.44,"text":"好來我第三個問題喔那個部長我先"},{"start":288.341,"end":316.59,"text":"這個是這兩天這個國防部的回應這媒體的報導我讓您知道一下就說國防部講說台灣之盾是要建立重重的這個攔截網導入AI輔助整合決策跟感知系統有效的整體防空系統那未來均列為我們商籌採購選商籌購的潛在表底換言之這一台灣之盾的部分有大部分方向可能都會採取商購是不是這樣子"},{"start":319.373,"end":326.236,"text":"那個台灣之盾的這個部分包含了過去現在還有我們未來規劃的這些相關的項目有商購有軍購其實這個項目裡面大部分是屬於軍購跟我們偽製的部分"},{"start":332.839,"end":352.96,"text":"那這三個部分包含Shooter、Sensor跟戰場管理的系統的這個部分我們都會按照我們的需求針對市場上面只要符合作戰需求的部分納入我們選購的項目那這個部分要做一個非常詳細的評估因為尤其是系統整合段如果沒有辦法有效的去整合我們各式系統的話"},{"start":354.261,"end":376.815,"text":"包含從高層的反彈防空到低層的反無人機它的效果就會降低 這個是我們未來努力的一個方向所以這才是本席所擔心 沒有錯這就是本席看到新聞報導是這樣寫 因為他還講說是國防部著30日表示然後你說有這些相關 均列為我未來選商籌購的潛在標的所以本席才會"},{"start":377.896,"end":401.008,"text":"才會提出這個質疑也想要請教就教我們現在的規劃方向因為你剛剛一直提到兩個部分嘛本席先問是說1.25兆跟之前的特別預算有什麼不同你講說1.25兆裡面有商購有偽製跟軍售所以說商購跟偽製的部分有相對比較有談判的空間這是你剛剛回答的"},{"start":401.428,"end":429.953,"text":"第二本期引用媒體的報導媒體報導也是國防部的回應講說台灣之盾有AI等相關系統是有選商籌購那我們要問的是說到底我們現在主要的方向因為花錢買相關是一回事但是能不能有效運用是一回事那還有到底1.25兆有多少比例是商購有多少比例是偽製有多少比例是軍售現在能不能回答"},{"start":430.915,"end":450.488,"text":"包委員這個部分我們會在預算書表進入大院審查的時候向對外說明好所以說條例通過之後預算書表進來之後會有一個比較明白的一個我們會有專報然後我們也會對外說明但是本時要問的是那個部長我再請教因為最後的時間大家現在有的看到我們現在對美關稅談判"},{"start":452.489,"end":470.551,"text":"之前四月的時候提出美國川普總統提出關稅當時我們就講說那對美因為主要美國總統川普他提出關稅是因為逆差的狀況那我們那時候也講是說我們購買那麼大量的軍事武器算不算不算軍售是不算可是商購是算的"},{"start":471.252,"end":489.36,"text":"那所以說在1.25兆裡面我們現在如果說有部分是維持所謂的商購的話那有沒有納入這次的這個對美關稅的談判小組裡面增加籌碼去跟美國談判我想對美的談判不是我主責的是 但是我知道 但是我說我們提出這個部分就"},{"start":490.55,"end":506.403,"text":"談判小組有沒有掌握這一塊是能夠讓美國知道在談判的因為到目前為止關稅還沒有出來啊但我們能夠增加籌碼我們要增加籌碼啊如果說總統已經都宣誓說有1.25兆那可是我們現在都不知道1.25兆到底內容是什麼"},{"start":507.968,"end":522.676,"text":"談判小組他們有沒有至少你內部溝通開會討論的時候你們會比較掌握方向吧那有沒有去增加我們談判的籌碼讓美國知道是說我們在這個部分其實也有部分的商用採購是應該要列入談判籌碼的"},{"start":523.601,"end":552.647,"text":"我想經濟跟安全的議題是雙軌的所以我想我們就這個關於武器的這些採購的方式不管是軍購還是商售還是自主生產的委制我想我們都要等到條例通過以後才會提出具體的一個規劃那都是在跟委員報告那關稅的談判我想沒有應該是沒有將我們現在要還沒有條例還沒有通過的這個預算項目把它納入談判的籌碼裡面"},{"start":554.881,"end":567.691,"text":"這難道不是一個我們中華民國政府整體對美國談判的一個通盤條件嗎我想我們的或是我們通盤的一個如果說因為部長你可以理解本席的隱憂"},{"start":569.333,"end":591.293,"text":"國防部做國防部的事情國防部提出相關特別預算但對於全體2350萬的全國人民來講但是現在要看到的是對美的關稅的部分以及特別預算到底有沒有把錢花在刀口上這都是環環相扣的啊那如果說你們現在沒有把這一個部分把它納入讓談判小組更有底氣的話那這樣子不就是變成是多頭馬車各做各的事情"},{"start":592.16,"end":615.067,"text":"而且本席剛剛已經開宗明義強調了軍售不算我知道所以我也沒有講說軍售的部分但你們既然已經提出1.25兆裡面有軍售有偽製有商購那就代表是說有商購的部分其實是我們可以讓美國政府知道我們也有這樣的規劃不是嗎我想我們還是等條例通過以後才能夠有一個確定的規劃方向因為所以目前看起來是沒有"},{"start":617.017,"end":630.616,"text":"您的意思說跟關稅談判嗎是我想關稅談判有關稅談判主責的一個單位所以現在是脫鉤的我只是確定一下我並不清楚這個關稅的談判他們的談判的內容好 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所以比較不像日本跟韓國因為日本跟韓國他們是拿一筆錢出來給美方他們去做投資那產生的效益以後大家來均分我們不是這樣我們是廠商他自主性有這樣的一個客戶上的一些需有而產生這樣的一個形式所以跟要先拿出一筆錢出來是不太一樣的"},{"start":204.824,"end":219.817,"text":"所以我們是以產業端來做一個平衡導向甚至是對談的一個策略對不對好那請問那現在我們一直在強調說要去爭取調降對等關稅的這個部分在我們雙方的討論你認為有信心嗎"},{"start":230.07,"end":251.952,"text":"楊總統在這邊 我們有信心有信心嗎可以往下再來 我們爭取不疊加依照原MFN最惠國待遇的稅率這個有信心嗎對 我們也有信心也有信心嗎好 我們來爭取232條款多項關稅優惠 有信心嗎"},{"start":252.812,"end":277.37,"text":"这个都是我们努力的目标我看到我们总裁在点头了有信心了但你点的太小太小了媒体没看到了好来那我们是不是也应该就像刚刚部长所说的我们的台湾模式就是要让我们的企业要赴美的企业争取更有利的投资环境跟条件"},{"start":277.95,"end":298.596,"text":"是的 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你知道嗎在國外叫C5ISRT你就是要加一個targeting"},{"start":375.629,"end":403.451,"text":"对因为targeting的这个时效在军种的不同的武器装备间的coordination它时间非常短可能短于30秒所以建议啊C5ISRT这是美国都在用的包括洛马洛格他们也来立法院拜会我们也都讨论过这些东西他们也在强调提供这个共同图像的重要性但是呢很多的就是属于界面的问题我们看到这个图啊现在大家强调这个IBCS洛格都讲它可以整合"},{"start":404.981,"end":422.947,"text":"這是一個構想跨軍種的武器如果用別的sensor甚至一個地區的單位他能夠下令接戰你的ROE就戰務令接戰規定你是分散式呢還是有授權那在這個所有的準則教範裡面必須要出來"},{"start":424.028,"end":436.208,"text":"所以整體的畫面C5ISRT非常重要因為包括你的海馬斯包括魚叉你那個色層相近"},{"start":437.267,"end":453.518,"text":"那谁来打谁来授权你能够由作战区来指挥吗也不行所以你在横着左的里面你还是要有一个完整的授权然后逐步授权到了某个阶段分配下去但是跨军种武器的控制还有一个整合比方讲"},{"start":454.358,"end":481.778,"text":"空军的这个工山跟美国的爱山这两个的界面不一样那如果美国的厂商介入进来提供协助那我们中科院的这个很多的技术规范是不是要掏出去这涉及到我们专利权的所以我们到现在还在讲一个共同图像可是我们现在所有的简报的图是用简图我没有看过可以把三种演训的图像套叠起来"},{"start":482.679,"end":509.431,"text":"我们做一个展示美方来的时候我也跟他们谈过了他们说这还要大家共同努力因为你基本的区域性的战略态势图不是雷琴显示图所以我们现在太空部分的能力还不谈我们只希望能够我们自己国产的监视的但是通信卫星还不能在自己手上掌握所以频道还是有限"},{"start":510.734,"end":535.369,"text":"所以你看这个图各种海图航图卫星套叠你的区域安全的图都显示了以后这个时候了我们台湾之盾了才能够坚实但在这一次过程中间还缺少一项虽然在这个强化防卫韧性的不对称计划采购特别条例一共770个字对"},{"start":536.503,"end":547.217,"text":"國家來言我們部內的首長各級長官那真是日理萬機但對美國而言那可是日復斗經因為770個字"},{"start":551.024,"end":578.268,"text":"依照2500亿每一个字是16亿2300万所以这个里面的每一个细节大家一定要定义清楚也就是说在这个2026到2033这中间除了CYSRT以外你对水下监控水下战力反潜这边没有涵盖这个当然可以补足进去那最后就是说我们要一个完整的整合画面了"},{"start":579.228,"end":602.981,"text":"不同的单位包括我们内政部救灾事实上这个画面我前次也向其他单位提过了我们都可以用3D的图形把灾区防护然后交给陆军救灾的部队他可以看到一个完整的画面所以整合画面配合现在不管是洛马诺格IBCS所讲的"},{"start":604.062,"end":624.262,"text":"这个C5ISRT以外还要含括到水下反潜反制无人艇这个也是另外一个威胁我们的盾不能只能对付水平面跟空中包括水下要完整的监控我这个建言请部长您做参考部长请回答"},{"start":624.998,"end":649.338,"text":"我想謝謝委員指教我想因為這個防空的台灣之盾的部分我想應該著重在這個質管的這個部分就是說我們要讓質管的整個的這個在不管在決策或者是在這一個產生一定的這個"},{"start":650.925,"end":676.911,"text":"從Sensor到Shooter的這個階段的時候那個指管的輔導入AI的一個輔助要能夠具有一個整合性也就是說在指管的這個整合性如果能夠越高那我們能夠進行的火力協調的分配就能夠越精確那接著下來我們做這個實施有效的一個攔截的成功率也會越高"},{"start":677.771,"end":697.749,"text":"所以我想在這個這個是純粹就防空的部分那麼委員所指教的指管通訊網情監在家T的這個部分整個來講那當然是整個我們包括整個共同的作戰圖像這個其中也涵蓋了所有的情報後勤等等的這些"},{"start":698.79,"end":715.808,"text":"圖像的一個全部的一個行程那這些行程我想還要再透過更大的一個努力那這個當然不只是空中太空空中水地面水面跟水下我想這個部分是整個我們要防範這個"},{"start":717.069,"end":728.726,"text":"整個防衛作戰的一個能力的提升的話這個CPSR如果再這樣踢的話那整個全面能力的提升這個當然還有待更進一步的努力"},{"start":732.652,"end":747.666,"text":"最主要就是还有一点我要强调这些所有先进的概念科技一定要赶快反映到我们的子摊教育跟战略教育不然部队拿到装备学校的教材还没有更新这个是我们要赶快加快努力的"},{"start":748.371,"end":769.798,"text":"是 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我們請兩位"},{"start":19.212,"end":47.72,"text":"好 那部長您包括總談判代表你們認為說這個台灣模式把台灣的類工業區或類科學園區這個隨著台積電過去我們來建制這個會對台灣有什麼衝擊呢我講的是衝擊兩個字你剛才講的是優點那這個可能的缺點或可能的衝擊是什麼呢有沒有部長和總談判代表分別回答"},{"start":49.076,"end":74.939,"text":"大家有些会担心说这样会不会排挤到国内投资实际上是不会因为我们听到台积电它的一些未来对台湾跟美国的布局基本上是不会产生有排挤的效果而且它持续的会加码投资台湾最先进的技术也会留在台湾好 来 总谈判代表来 您的意见"},{"start":76.091,"end":98.097,"text":"委員 我們這次的模式還是以更有台灣然後佈局全球所以我想在過程中我們有尋往中小企業的一些意見因為他們也是想把他們的企業跟他們的那你覺得中小企業如果過去的話他會需要政府什麼支持那對台灣又有什麼影響"},{"start":98.797,"end":113.073,"text":"他希望的政府支持是說比如在土地水電還有行政的一些措施尤其是法規方面希望政府能夠提供協助所以才會說剛剛這會不會變成中小企業本身技術跟資金的外移呢"},{"start":114.681,"end":140.86,"text":"我想應該不是外流 是把他好 那我來本席來跟您做一些討論第一個在川普政府美國製造的目標下亞洲各國的產業如半導體AI伺服器 電動車等無人機為了規避累加稅率而赴美投資這些產業背後的生態劇包括石化 設備 產物 被動源泉 金屬加工像塑膠等"},{"start":143.682,"end":161.548,"text":"是否會外移社長的趨勢衝擊我國目前的產業值得我國深思第二個根據中經院在對於今年2024年台灣對美投資的金額已經創歷年新高而且是從去年從前年2023年2024年連續兩年美國是超越中國成為台灣最大的投資地"},{"start":168.65,"end":196.725,"text":"赴美工作的人數已經有13.7萬這樣的趨勢是否會造成本土競爭力的挑戰所以當然本席也會支持你們積極的談判降低對等關稅爭取不跌加最惠國待遇的稅率但是媒體報導台灣將投資美國4千億而且以台灣模式設置類科學園區所以我也請你們一定要思考如何確保中小企業不是技術跟資金的外影"},{"start":197.105,"end":219.254,"text":"而是開拓新市場好本席提出過往的失敗的經驗類科學園區不能重演台商附中的潛力有提出三點第一個產業外移是我國產業的痛過去從台商外移中國東南亞造成技術人才的雙重空洞化好在蔡英文總統時期以及2019年推出了"},{"start":220.094,"end":245.854,"text":"投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回流資金回流2.5兆元創造了8萬個就業機會我們這麼努力從蔡英文執政8年當中再加上2019年對才造才回流2.5兆而且才造才創造8萬個工作機會所以增加投資決定就業的成長好你們宣稱"},{"start":250.427,"end":269.973,"text":"這個台美關稅談判與其他國家不同 包括台積電在內的投資台灣模式是由政府 我這些都照念喔 你的簡報由政府為赴美台商投資融資信用保證 讓中小企業可以跟著供應鏈到美國海外設廠 並由美國在類工業區內提供護照"},{"start":272.134,"end":288.259,"text":"水電等行政變節這樣的模式是否會掏空人才現在的如果我按照爆派的說法爆派提供護照過往我這邊工作兩年我希望美國提供這個拘留證"},{"start":289.89,"end":308.349,"text":"長期居留證現在我們是加碼希望不只要提供居留證而是要提供居住證直接成為可以成為美國公民了這個會不會掏空人才了而我剛才已經提出個數據了目前我們跟著在這個連著2023、2024年現在赴美投資的有13.7萬人了"},{"start":313.314,"end":335.633,"text":"好這樣的提供附照是不是又加快了我們掏空人才呢我並沒有反對我講的是一個衝擊面的因應再來本席呼籲類科學園區不能重演台商附中的潛力將製造及多數就業機會帶到國外留下這就是過往的做法留下少數母公司的職缺在北部跟中部"},{"start":336.213,"end":359.138,"text":"而中部政府必須協助企業維持在本國的產線輔導本國的中小企業進入先進產業的供應鏈這是本席的主張所以只有台灣持續製造跟研發海外設廠才會有源源不絕的供應鏈也就是你要建立起非紅供應鏈也就是要建立起民主的供應鏈的價值"},{"start":360.558,"end":389.83,"text":"如果你沒有在這個台積電赴美國或者是日本或者是德國當中你沒有建立起國內相關半導體設備化的國產化的積極的導入的時候那不好意思只好我們的資金人才等同過去台商投資中國跟東南亞的這樣技術人才的雙重空洞化在你的簡報當中我並沒有看到這樣的一個因應之道"},{"start":390.39,"end":392.912,"text":"好所以推動半導體供應鏈國產化部長您認為這個議題可行嗎"},{"start":398.528,"end":424.314,"text":"现在进行当中进行当中来说看看吧就是我们现在当然整个半导体前端的这个设备是因为ASMO他们是门槛是比较高一点但是我们先从后端的这个封装设备开始进行那现在已经表现非常好先进封装现在大概都可以国产化了所以将来在西光子往前推的话这个供应链的国产化也可以形成"},{"start":425.479,"end":446.525,"text":"你講的還蠻抽象的好對於等一下我會具體要求你如何以高雄的3奈米的一個台積電的基地去這個組建起我這個半導體的國產化就以高雄為基地您看要怎麼做本期有具體建議希望以專案的方式就能夠落實你剛才講的"},{"start":447.285,"end":466.833,"text":"好 半導體跟人工智慧產業是台灣經濟成長的主要動能所以這些動能隨著全球的佈局分別到美國 日本 德國所以台積電赴美投資1650億電子業如台達電 偉創 鴻海 英達 英業達給各自投入上億元在美國的投資去年的總額到141億"},{"start":469.194,"end":494.58,"text":"億的美元如果其他的產線跟供應鏈現在是電子業跟著去喔我們有好多相關的這個相關的這個金屬加工包括我們的這些石化的複材也都可能跟著去喔如果他的類工業區的這個人才的優惠這麼好你工作2年就可以拿到永久居住證的話哇那我想不是只有13.7萬人會過去而已"},{"start":497.161,"end":517.51,"text":"所以在這邊本席憂慮的不是只有人才包括我們本國今年預估要達到GDP的成長率是達到7.37%本席都相當的憂慮所以主張維持本土製造業的量能必須做到三件事情第一個就針對半導體設備的中小企業相關的傳統產業透過共同研發或者取得國際認證"},{"start":526.273,"end":553.315,"text":"這個是我們這個傳統產業在相關的設備業當中我們的高門檻因為現在還是都是這些半導體業他還是跟德國美國跟日本歐美國家採買嘛他不買台灣的嘛那你希望組建台灣的這樣的一個設備相關設備的國產化你一定要除了導入研發還要取得國際認證進入半導體的供應鏈第二個鼓勵外資在台灣使用"},{"start":553.595,"end":569.906,"text":"台灣4兆的設備零組件跟耗材第三個 加強半導體產業與化工 模具 機械 電子等技質體系進行產學合作讓人才不一定一風光的景氣半導體產業也能在船廠扮演不可取代的角色"},{"start":570.646,"end":599.959,"text":"好在這邊我再要點醒這個半導體設備國產化我們有沒有利機也必須一定要做或者你的類工業區分析再次的提醒你只會再次的變成投資台商進入東南亞台商進入中國的技術跟人才的掏空好半導體產業不只是只有細金源一片金源需要至少300個工序背後的設備跟零件"},{"start":600.399,"end":621.908,"text":"就都是大量傳統產業的資源比如說我舉一個案例日本的花王他將洗去髒汙的而且不傷害肌膚的技術用於清洗晶圓所以傳統產業長年累積的經驗只要經過半導體產業的合作就能成為改善良率的工程"},{"start":622.808,"end":641.991,"text":"第二個以高雄為例以台積電有先進的二奈米製程也有日月光的先進封裝過往相關的零組件化學材料都是跟日本德國買而高雄當然也有金屬加工化工等重要的產業整個石化產業幾乎我們就有"},{"start":643.613,"end":662.082,"text":"這個台中油中油就有兩個兩大石化專區在這邊包括民間的我們的大社工業區總共加起來民營跟中油就有三個石化產業那所以呢因此政府應該協助更多有意願美門路的傳統產業跨過資新技術的雙重門檻進入高價值值的半導體產業面"},{"start":667.865,"end":676.489,"text":"好 我們當然最後也期待我們的政府能夠提出 談出更好的條件讓螺絲扣件跟半導體可以避免232條款的課稅範圍但是本席非常的憂慮如果你沒有起見半導體產業的國產化你只會讓我傳統產業可能有滅亡的困境其實現在是不可說的公開秘密"},{"start":692.657,"end":709.95,"text":"整個這個構建業金屬加工業跟石化業其實在高雄都已經在放無薪假了所以但是呢如果說你沒有再正式這樣你們再一直喊這個所謂的類科學園區本席不反對你只要把相關國內的基礎產業做好"},{"start":713.412,"end":728.001,"text":"那這個也不是一天兩天的事必須從現在就開始本行沒有意見因為他真的是擴張他真的是在國際佈局擴張海外市場所以針對這些傳統產業只有貿易條件改善還不足還要投入資金輔導煤核傳產儘速進入半導體產業供應也讓未來的傳產以台灣為基地"},{"start":733.624,"end":748.756,"text":"他不只服務到美國去投資台積電而可以呢也可以賣給世界各國的半導體產業建立起台灣製造業的不可取代性這邊具體要求經濟部國發會經濟部以專案的方式加速輔導國內傳統產業導入半導體製程或設備供應鏈"},{"start":753.86,"end":762.526,"text":"那這個方案當然是希望傳統產業能夠增加技術的升級部長這邊我要很明確的講其實你的半導體產業的這個設備國產化我希望你"},{"start":765.922,"end":791.029,"text":"真的認真的評估很仔細的評估能夠以專案方式來跟本院報告第二個國發會呢推動信賴產業你的信賴產業我也在這邊具體要求因為台美的你們的這個所談出的條件你的信賴產業就是目前正在做重點放在半導體的後端製程的國產化切割貼合封裝測試"},{"start":792.99,"end":808.663,"text":"等設備這都可以規劃國內的供應鏈增加自製零組件耗材材料設備的國產化比例讓傳統產業也成為半導體產業的隱形冠軍再來以國科會請你也以專案的方式提出報告"},{"start":809.824,"end":827.776,"text":"以高雄的3奈米量產基地為核心運用你的國發淨金運用你的大南方新矽谷的計畫的這個方案的錢跟政策導向投資半導體設備國產供應鏈提供我國工業區園區的需求以輔導傳統產業進入半導體產業兩個部會這個國發會跟那個好那我們請單位就針對委員所提的這是非常重要請會後也跟委員詳細說明"},{"start":840.224,"end":848.507,"text":"那是不是請主席協助裁示一下這個是給他們一個時間那您那個部長跟因為我們時間你要三個月嗎來部長您說吧我們兩個月兩個月好謝謝以上"}]}},{"id":"166011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af70a9f37963f3fb449b28663f7a8bd118051ffdcaedd4f391a07496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:39:34 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那個談判辦可以先回部長我還要請教一個比較時事的問題最近我們有非常多的討論關於有一個叫做瑞幸咖啡這個是在中國成立的一個咖啡大型連鎖店它即將來台灣插旗台灣的市場聽說首家的門市就會落腳在台北市的南京復興商圈那它的徵才廣告也已經開始了"},{"start":342.37,"end":369.2,"text":"那我看部長您這幾天對外的發言都說這個是一個代理商他不是中資因為我們沒有接獲瑞信他來申請我們國內投資的這個申請案是沒有的所以他是用代理的方式透過代理商的方式然後在台灣插旗台灣的市場準備在台灣的落腳但是如果"},{"start":370.321,"end":384.081,"text":"這個我覺得 經濟部您還是要去持續的觀察啦過去我們一直講中資中資轉新加坡資轉港資現在換一條路他直接找台灣的公司直接代理"},{"start":385.389,"end":403.496,"text":"那代理是一個問題這個是你們要去觀察我現在要談的是資安的風險他在美國這家這個瑞幸咖啡在美國要求他們的所有的點餐一定要下載他的APP那這個APP跟我們一般在餐廳的這個掃QR Code的點餐不太一樣"},{"start":404.396,"end":432.663,"text":"這個APP還會收集他的個人資料聯絡方式 定位 交易記錄 電子郵件跟簡訊甚至他的網頁瀏覽記錄等等的敏感資訊都會透過這個APP去收集這個已經遠超過一個點咖啡 買咖啡 買一杯咖啡所需要得到的資訊了這個我想要請經濟部是不是能夠密切掌握這件事情"},{"start":433.183,"end":447.36,"text":"或者你們現在有沒有掌握會 如果這個代理商他是屬於本國的企業他雖然代理國外的但是我們會要求他要完全要符合我們國內的個資法相關規定我們也要求他所有的個資必須要留在台灣"},{"start":448.533,"end":461.991,"text":"你要求他的個資留在台灣但是他如果掃這個app download這個app很多資訊就直接回傳回去了啊你怎麼要求他留在台灣這個是我要求你們要去實際的調查了解掌握"},{"start":463.573,"end":491.998,"text":"你要求他留在台灣但是這個東西透過雲端就回去了啊你要求他也沒用啊我們會了解他的這個各自相關怎麼蒐集怎麼運用好包括他是不是跟在美國一樣強制要Download他的App才能去點餐而他的這個App的設計裡面是不是有我剛剛提到的這一些東西這個我是不是也能夠請經濟部或者是你們跟行政院的資安辦能夠充分的密切去掌握這件事情可以可以好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":495.094,"end":495.862,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af792de559dda526ab696d3b95029a3bab651ffdcaedd4f391ab606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:19:20 - 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有請顧部長請顧部長是 羅委員好"},{"start":12.263,"end":20.265,"text":"部長早 部長今天我們要來談的是軍人的薪資待遇結構的問題其實從2000年以來軍公教薪資補調了6次近年2022年2024年各調了4%然後114年再調3其實這5年來整個調幅大約來到11.4%"},{"start":35.588,"end":52.727,"text":"那今年四月份的時候呢還挑釁了積月印加急跟戰鬥部隊加急那基層的這個作戰的官員這個官兵呢每個月最多呢可以來到這個一萬二是作戰單位呢歷年來呢這個條幅最最大的一次那"},{"start":54.888,"end":68.132,"text":"剛剛我看這個報告的時候其實我們為了這一個高專人才的長留久用所以今年的6月7月我們又個別調升了網路站佳績 帳範管佳績跟電證佳績"},{"start":70.953,"end":89.266,"text":"其實整個報告我們都提到加擠的這部分可是也讓我們發現就是說其實官兵實際上的待遇是靠各式的加擠堆疊起來了反而是本縫是偏低的之前我有看到一個媒體在記說像稍微志願第一年為例"},{"start":90.226,"end":95.689,"text":"本俸是22750加上專業家籍20750職員業家籍15000然後就會達到58500元所以我們可以看到呈現的就是說這個家籍多於本俸的這個現象那當然我有看到也有人最近在討論就是說這個國軍的這個整個薪資結構的這個問題有提到一個問題就是說如果一掉職的話那是不是說他的薪水會掉了一大半"},{"start":117.722,"end":144.738,"text":"那再來呢升官未必加薪等等的這些問題我想請教一下部長當初我們國防部的這個設計整個這個新制結構的設計的考量是什麼我想如果參照這個軍人待遇條例來看的話因為它的本縫這個部分是屬於軍公教人員的一體的一個基本待遇"},{"start":146.72,"end":161.569,"text":"各階級的縫及縫點都有一個跟軍公教人員的一個橫平性的規範所以如果就軍人本縫來講它是整個連動所有公教人員的一個"},{"start":162.429,"end":188.59,"text":"你是說條新的這個部分嘛對不對本縫的部分是軍公教就一體連動的嘛那就這個你剛問到說那所以在這個軍人待遇條例在這個它就裡面就會提到就是說家籍那家籍我們特別提到那個現在大家可能討論比較多的就是勤務家籍這個部分"},{"start":189.25,"end":212.877,"text":"勤務家級這個部分的話我們主要是對於從事危險性或技術性高的然後或一級勤務的特性這當然包括他的可能高專業性等等的我們就從這個勤務家級來留住這一個有從事這些危險性或技術性工作的或者是職務比較繁重的或者是具有高專"},{"start":214.037,"end":220.804,"text":"人力的這些人這樣子的一個結構來來進行這個軍公教的一個待遇的一個整體規劃這樣子"},{"start":222.521,"end":251.892,"text":"所以看得出來當然我們從這個加息可以看到說我們是特定的單位特定的職種我們來做這個加碼所以部長認為說其實這種薪資設計它是有誘因的是不是它這個設計當然就是說以你們這樣看的話國軍每一個單位它的勤務繁重程度不一樣它的專業性不一樣它的這個危險性不一樣那如果每一個人薪資都一樣的話那當然有可能大家都會不願意去往這個危險性高"},{"start":252.632,"end":274.617,"text":"技術性高技術性高容易被被拉走嘛對不對或高專業性的容易被拉走那麼危險性高的那麼如果都拿一樣那為什麼要從事危險性或者這個事務比較繁重的部分的話那當然他也會考量他的相關的待遇所以這個可能我們在國軍在設計這個薪資待遇的時候要"},{"start":278.298,"end":299.819,"text":"從各面向參與很多的意見然後我們來做一個整體的規劃考量所以我們是當然這個觀念可以理解只是說大家說本縫是比較低的我們幾乎都是把這個重點都擺在佳績的部分當然部長剛剛的解釋本席能夠接受就是說OK我們剛剛有提到就是說其實"},{"start":301.981,"end":326.232,"text":"就要帶到下面那一題了那我有看到今天的報告裡面有提到就是說像陸海軍飛行部隊機務人員防空戒護部隊及資訊通信聯隊等單位本部評估其從事之戰鬥支援所以符合行政院核定之戰鬥部隊定義所以呢研擬支領第二類型戰鬥部隊佳績其實我發現這個問題的時候是來自於這個審計部"},{"start":329.634,"end":333.579,"text":"其實省紀部今年他在查核的時候發現一開始我們在做設計的時候並沒有把這個陸海軍飛行部隊機務人員跟防空介護部隊拉進來是不是因為省紀部今年查核發現所以我們才認為說確實是"},{"start":345.052,"end":355.799,"text":"因為其實我們可能在整個設計當中可能會漏掉了一些一些可能其實就是符合這個第二類戰鬥部隊加級的像之前的話我們只是只有給空軍坐在聯隊的地勤維修人員或是武掛人員來領這第二類的這個戰鬥部隊加級可是像陸海軍航空部隊的部分其實它是屬於同類型可是卻沒有"},{"start":370.749,"end":393.597,"text":"而是審計部這一邊發現查核發現我們才納入是不是這樣子一開始設計的時候並沒有把他們拉進來對不對行政院有一個戰鬥部隊的一個定義那戰鬥部隊的定義他包括的是直接跟敵軍從事作戰部隊或協同作戰部隊來提供戰鬥資源的那因為現在我們"},{"start":395.538,"end":409.096,"text":"漸漸都朝一個聯合作戰的一個形態來發展所以在聯合作戰形態發展的一個就說這種這種概念之下我們確實是要越來越多的檢討這個"},{"start":413.162,"end":441.761,"text":"這個戰鬥部隊包括了第一類的戰鬥部隊跟第二類的戰鬥部隊的一個這個定義那這個部分要做一個全面性的檢討這個是確實是我們應該要來當初是疏忽的部分是不是因為本來我本來想說這次的話想要問一下說到底有沒有納入可是我看報告裡面說你們也你要納入嘛所以一開始設計的時候就沒有把這個陸海陸海軍航空部隊的這個拉進來"},{"start":442.641,"end":466.224,"text":"所以,有很多的家籍,做出來之後,還是有一些繼承的弟兄會認為,為什麼我們沒有?像我們有看到第一類、第二類的戰鬥部隊,目前大概有七萬五千人,他是符合這個資格的,可是只佔了職業運的一半,其他的都是後勤跟幕僚。"},{"start":467.225,"end":492.916,"text":"那難道後勤跟幕僚其實他們就不用納入了嗎如果是說按照部長的這個說法可能他們的工作可能就不是屬於聯合作戰部隊的一部分可是後勤跟幕僚其實這個他們就說很多家籍其實他們是領不到的我們設計了很多的家籍其實是領不到的那後勤人員他們也覺得說他們也很辛苦啊像這個的話以後的設計我們會有怎麼樣的一個規劃跟調整嗎"},{"start":494.156,"end":516.065,"text":"我剛講聯合作戰的定義的話應該是會比較擴大因為在聯合作戰的概念之下未來是會把它納入後勤單位的話我們就現在在這個整個薪資待遇的整體結構我們會重新檢視這個戰鬥部隊的定義所以就後勤單位我們會來持續檢討修正這些支領的對象金額跟他的種類"},{"start":517.566,"end":541.921,"text":"所以這個部分的話未來會擴大來做納入的意思對不對目前是沒有所以當然基層可是還是有一點聲音他說其實說他們也都很辛苦也是24小時在待命可是為什麼有些家籍他們就是領不到所以這個部分的話我在想國防部還是要重新來做一個調整跟規劃因為還有一點因為剛剛大家都有在提到就是說這個"},{"start":543.582,"end":565.663,"text":"事實上叫戰鬥部隊的第一類型的話整個陸軍在裝甲旅以下或者是炮兵營等等這些都是屬於這個戰鬥部隊啦所以戰鬥部隊的這個定義避免就是說因為現在一直有人在講說這個升級反而降性嘛"},{"start":566.704,"end":585.786,"text":"那所以我們必須要整體的來考量戰鬥部隊的定義因為在當時在核定戰鬥部隊的定義的時候譬如說雙甲旅就是屬於直接參與戰鬥的那到底在什麼樣的一個程度在合乎這樣的一個定義之下這個戰鬥部隊的一個家籍要"},{"start":586.666,"end":608.776,"text":"發放到哪一個層級我想這是值得來做整體的規劃跟檢討OK好謝謝謝謝部長那最後一題我想請教就是說從115年起呢機運加急像立法院通過了明年1月1號施行一律是加3萬部分關節部分植物這個植物類型那這對我們未來的這個軍事的部署跟裝備的這個有沒有有什麼影響嗎這會影響到我們未來的這個"},{"start":612.979,"end":637.781,"text":"這個預算的這個長期的壓力這個部分國防部的立場應該是我們還是會持續來加強這個軍人的待遇但是我們希望就是說能夠橫著他從事的任務艱困繁重的程度還有他的專業的特性所以其實國防部司法對這種齊頭式的這個發放我們希望來檢視整個整個包括了"},{"start":638.662,"end":664.135,"text":"這些各項勤務佳節還有戰鬥部的定義我們會來做一個整體的規劃來讓大家都願意到這個我們認為可以大家都需要到的一個地方我們需要到那大家也都認為是一個好的一個具有這個整體跟平衡的規劃這樣子的一個方向OK 好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7dc243f8530b51727b28663f7a8bd118051ffdcaedd4f391a2eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:47:55 - 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請工部長還有談判總代表 楊總代表好 我們請兩位 謝謝議員長是 部長 總代表"},{"start":23.462,"end":50.921,"text":"这个美国的对等关税它现在不仅是我们又关我们国我国的这个出口产业生存的空间而且关乎于我们整个台美经贸关系的这个稳定性那如何让我们的产业不会被这个不合理的关税所伤害到现在还在磋商现在暂行的那个税率是20%对不对那现在的话我们看到在这20%的话我们希望"},{"start":51.381,"end":72.067,"text":"能夠在關稅上可以談到可以往20%來往下降最好是跟日韓一樣都是15%那也不要再疊加那剛剛兩位都提到說很有信心可以談成那請問一下到底這個對等關稅什麼時候會談成可能在今年年底會談好嗎"},{"start":74.126,"end":99.204,"text":"报告委员时间有急迫性但是要谈一个好的对国人有利的方向你一直不谈的话他还是在20%所以我们的竞争力就被影响了不是我们在谈判这个过程中一定要争取要调降对等调降而且不叠加所以赶快谈你们有信心会调降那就赶快把它谈成这期限还是不知道一直谈下去"},{"start":100.125,"end":110.903,"text":"年底也不可能不会我们会努力的尽量的努力还有时间表嘛但是也要是为我国人争取最好所以你们谈不成的话就一直还是28啊"},{"start":113.423,"end":133.499,"text":"这是我们努力的目标一定要调教再加油好不好那因为现在这个外媒的报道里面有说台湾投资美国的这个四千亿这个美金那你们有来出来辟谣说这只是揣测而已那还请问你们在谈当中会低于四千亿吗美金"},{"start":136.168,"end":143.975,"text":"報告委員 我想任何的談判的細節我們還是不會在你們說都有信心那這比4000億美金低有信心嗎"},{"start":145.297,"end":171.803,"text":"我想我們會努力的朝我們要降低不是這個金額的數字去努力還是有信心啦好那談到這邊的話特別要提到說因為講到日韓嘛那日本跟韓國的話他們的投資一個是日本是5500億美金韓國是3500億美金但是佔有他們國家的GDP這比例的話日本是佔有佔GDP大概是14%那個韓國是佔有20%"},{"start":174.884,"end":186.855,"text":"如果台灣是4000億美金的話 佔我們台灣的4000億佔我們的GDP的話是50%一半這是我們國家的整個財政環境能夠承受的嗎"},{"start":188.283,"end":205.822,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下所以你都要預估進去啊我們的條件是台灣模式一定依照我們經濟發展產業的結構跟業者的需求來做談判所以我們不將日本跟韓國他們模式不一樣我們不做比較"},{"start":207.069,"end":233.895,"text":"總代表你一直在講台灣模式台灣模式的話並不是說我們把他的科學園區不是說只是畫一塊地給他那整個我們的基礎建設跟我們的整個行政制度跟人才還有學術整個都會帶過去的是不是所以你有沒有考慮到如果說我們在協助美國在訓練他美國的勞工我們的關鍵技術會不會有外流的這個缺口"},{"start":234.496,"end":244.136,"text":"還有就是說我們整個這個環境跟我們勞工這個我們半導體是不可取代的這個這個地位會不會就會喪失掉"},{"start":246.687,"end":260.795,"text":"報告委員不會因為最先進的技術還是會在台灣你一直講最先進的技術沒錯但是我們在訓練美國的勞工的時候這個技術這整個工業的技術就會有這個缺口有這個危險性這個風險會產生的它是一個operator的這個"},{"start":265.538,"end":279.639,"text":"技能啦他不是研發單位啦所以這個還要防範這個風險好不好這是我們國人所擔心的期待你們這個缺口不要發生那至於就我們談到這個"},{"start":282.659,"end":310.541,"text":"在四月份的时候我们谈到四月份在整个台湾这个贸易这个逆差这个环境里面我们有谈到总代表你可以先回去那因为我们看到四月份这个赖清的总统在特别因应这个美国对等关税有谈到说我们要针对农业工业这个能源部分的话跟美国减低美国的贸易这个逆差要跟这个阿拉斯加这个"},{"start":313.037,"end":315.8,"text":"購買這個液化的這個天然氣喔我們也簽訂了這個這個特別的簽訂"},{"start":319.712,"end":345.724,"text":"這個意向書都簽訂下去了但是這個有個重要的關鍵問題就是阿拉斯加這個我們雖然簽訂了這個意向書但是它這個距離我們有1300公里這個距離本來是日韓跟我們台灣要一起的但是我們看到日本跟韓國非常的保留這個態度而我們卻要積極去爭取這個整個管線的這個工程是不是"},{"start":346.684,"end":360.08,"text":"我們為什麼會把這個意向書這管線的地方我們沒有平衡的一個爭取報告委員因為當初已經簽的意向書表達是一頁這意向書有包括管線嗎對 表達是一頁他是附帶條件嗎"},{"start":361.656,"end":381.985,"text":"那因為阿斯嘉事實上距離台灣啊算相對來講如果以天然氣來講的話還算相對近的它只有一千三百公里七天的航程如果是船運的話那當然主要還是以船運為主啦對如果這個管線的話你們去爭取這個工程的話這個費用是誰出"},{"start":383.786,"end":406.197,"text":"管線的話 他那個管線不是講說要拉到台灣來拉到整個亞洲嘛 那是我們有去爭取嘛我們非常積極去爭取 但是日本跟韓國都保留啊那如果說日本跟韓國不去爭取 不去投資他的話那這樣子的話 等於是我們台灣一個國家在爭取一個國家在投資"},{"start":408.118,"end":430.51,"text":"那管線是從他的產地線到港口不是要拉到台灣來主幹線1300公里拉過來了那你要拉到日本韓國再支線再拉過去這是一定的嘛那我說我們現在在管理這個管線的時候是怎麼樣的爭取都是船運啦他拉到港口就是阿拉斯加的港口以後然後再船運到那這1300公里是怎麼對對對現在的規劃是這個樣子他這個距離就1300公里"},{"start":435.819,"end":445.732,"text":"那主要就是要船運過來啊是啊 還是船運啊但是這個主幹線1300公里本來是日本 韓國跟我們嘛董事長 您說"},{"start":448.207,"end":474.6,"text":"報告員 這個管線 我說明一下它是從那個阿拉斯加州啊的北邊 最北邊那邊拉一條800我這個都知道 我的意思是說日本 韓國跟我們本來是針對我們這三個人有這個意向嘛 對不對但是現在爭取的只有我們有這個投資意願啊日本跟韓國都沒有啊我們只是表達這個意向而已事實上最後要不要投入的話還是要看它的效益的結果"},{"start":475.089,"end":498.801,"text":"如果未來日本 韓國沒有這個意願的話我們也不投資嗎我們也不要不一定 看他實質的投資效益有沒有具備那個效益是 那我的意思是說如果之後這個管線是我們投資進去的話我們到時候購買的這個液態的天然氣的話成本就必須要降低啊到時候我們撈出來的話日本現在沒有 日本 韓國不要投資到時候我們投資進去了"},{"start":499.321,"end":515.279,"text":"因為我們不會是唯一的投資國啦所以我想請問嘛我請問日本 韓國若不投資進去的話我們也不會投資是不是其他國家通通不投資我們當然沒有辦法投好 我們就要這個答案日本 韓國沒有去爭取投資的話我們就不能投資 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17082","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd76fe48d3caea90ab4c8243b3e4a0deefb4456b5c46cbb78c60218a7db648e33c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員徐欣瑩等18人及(二)委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案；審查(四)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查行政院函請審議「電信管理法第七十二條條文修正草案」案等12案、委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「電信管理法增訂第七十二條之二條文草案」案；審查委員陳素月等21人擬具「電信管理法第七十二條條文修正草案」案等14案。（詳見議事日程）\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「氣象法第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案等10案；審查委員陳素月等21人擬具「氣象法第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案等15案、委員張雅琳等17人擬具「氣象法部分條文修正草案」案。（詳見議事日程）\n四、繼續審查行政院函請審議「商港法第十五條及第六十五條之四條文修正草案」案等12案；審查委員陳素月等21人「商港法第十五條及第六十五條之四條文修正草案」案等12案。（詳見議事日程）\n五、繼續審查行政院函請審議「船舶法部分條文修正草案」案等12案、委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「船舶法第八條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案；審查委員陳素月等21人擬具「船舶法部分條文修正草案」案等11案。（詳見議事日程）\n【本次會議進行逐條審查；開會事由二第(二十五)至(二十七)案、開會事由三第(二十四)至(二十六)案、開會事由四第(二十三)案及第(二十四)案、開會事由五第(二十二)至(二十四)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【12月1日及3日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-01T08:34:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-01T11:20:00+08:00","duration":9903,"影片長度":"02:45:03","委員發言時間":"08:34:57 - 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列席人員行政院公共工程委員會李怡德副主任委員數位發展部林怡靜部長交通部陳士凱部長氣象署呂國成署長"},{"start":1780.08,"end":1807.939,"text":"航港局葉協榮局長國家通訊傳播委員會黃文哲主任秘書法務部謝志明參事司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳林靜超法官"},{"start":1812.878,"end":1839.425,"text":"海巡署副署長謝慶清以下簡略本日會議進行計時法電信管理法氣象法商港法傳播法等修正草案的逐條審查我們現在請提案委員說明提案要旨好那就審略"},{"start":1841.923,"end":1857.846,"text":"本日會議逐條審查程序各案先一併宣讀條文如有修正動議也一併宣讀全部宣讀完後在逐案進行協商處理現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":1865.154,"end":1878.879,"text":"及施法條文對照表 宣讀修正徵訂部分 其餘均同先行條文委員李昆哲等提案第十一條 第一項第四款修正為四 有客官事實認不能執行業務 經中央主管機關邀請相關專業醫師及公會代表及"},{"start":1882.7,"end":1903.568,"text":"學者專家組成小組 認定小組之組成應有專科醫師學者專家各兩位以上 且專科醫師及學者專家人數不得少於總數二分之一 第二項前段徵訂文字不發給的給 為林郡縣等提案第十一條 第一項第三款及第四款修正為三"},{"start":1904.082,"end":1920.863,"text":"受破產之宣告或依消費者債務清理條例經法院裁定開始清算程序尚未復權 四有客觀事實認不能執行業務經中央主管機關邀請相關專業醫師計時公費代表及學者專家組成銷組認定"},{"start":1923.166,"end":1934.465,"text":"徵訂第二項文字內容為前項第四款小組織組成及運作方式由中央主管機關定制第三項的聚首修正為依第一項前段徵訂不發給"},{"start":1936.707,"end":1965.624,"text":"的給的文字委員許新穎等提案第十一條第一項第四款修正為是有客觀事實主任其身心狀況不能執行業務經中央主管機關邀請計時工會代表學者專家及兩位以上相關專科醫師組成小組認定第二項前段徵定文字不發給的給徵定第三項文字內容為第一項第四款認定小組設置運作辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":1966.084,"end":1979.765,"text":"委員陳俊宇等提案第十一條第一項第四款修正為四客觀事實主任其身心狀況不能執行業務並經中央主管機關邀請相關專科以實際公會代表及學者專家組成小組認定"},{"start":1981.431,"end":2008.605,"text":"第二項的前段也是真定文字不發給的給委員吳麗華等提案第十一條第一項第四款修正為是有客觀事實認不能執行業務經中央主管機關邀請相關專科醫師即是工會代表及學者專家組成小組認定第二項的前段也是真定不發給的給委員林俊憲等提案第十二條第一項原條文的前段戀愛關係人等文字予以刪除"},{"start":2009.566,"end":2028.262,"text":"徵訂第二項文件內容為戀愛關係人發現技師有第39條規定之情事時的列舉事實並提出相關事證報請目的事業主管機關慈祥市縣市主管機關或技師所屬技師工會審核後轉送技師懲戒委員會處理之"},{"start":2029.903,"end":2058.243,"text":"委員吳麗華等提案第42條第一項未修正然後徵定第二項以及第三項文字內容為前項有利害關係人報請處理資情事其涉及技師辦理鑑定事務者應先經目的事業主管機關之下是縣市主管機關或技師工會審核後轉送技師承協委員會處理資前項審核轉送原則程序及其他相關事項之規則由中央主管機關定之定性管理法條文"},{"start":2059.385,"end":2068.363,"text":"對照表行政面提案第七十二條 政定第六項文字內容為供第一項至第三項及前項犯罪"},{"start":2069.338,"end":2092.793,"text":"用之工具傳播或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之 其經裁判沒收確定者得視個案情節需要拍賣或變賣或作案報准依下的方式之一處置之一 無償流工公用 二 廢棄三位為其他適當之處置其餘文字均同信行條文"},{"start":2095.427,"end":2119.427,"text":"其餘委員提案部分 委員王美惠等提案 委員李坤澄等提案 委員吳麗華等提案委員邱振軍等提案 委員吳佩儀等提案 委員林楚英等提案委員蔡易瑜等提案 委員郭育晴等提案 委員陳樹悅等提案委員陳秀寶等提案 委員陳亭飛等提案委員張雅琳等提案 委員范雲等提案 委員何新淳等提案 委員徐富培等提案"},{"start":2120.939,"end":2129.652,"text":"委員吳啟明等提案 委員羅廷瑋等提案委員洪孟楷等提案 委員李博義等提案委員王宏威等提案 均同行政面提案"},{"start":2135.366,"end":2160.282,"text":"第九頁委員羅美玲等提案第七十二條 第一項的默劇修正為新台幣四千萬元以下罰金 第二項默劇修正為新台幣八千萬元以下罰金 第三項的中段修正為新台幣一億五千萬元以下罰金 默劇修正為新台幣一億元以下罰金 據同行政院提案"},{"start":2161.943,"end":2186.344,"text":"第十一頁委員黃婕等提案第七十二條徵訂第七項文字內容為有前項依沒收傳博之情形者其犯罪行次字全部收益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之但與全部或一部不能沒收時追徵其價額需同行政院提案"},{"start":2188.393,"end":2213.163,"text":"第二十頁委員沈博洋等提案 委員沈博洋等提案第七十二條第一項的後段修正為處一年以下有期有期徒刑拘役或課新台幣三百萬元以下罰金 其餘同行政院提案第六頁委員邱仲華等提案"},{"start":2215.168,"end":2224.78,"text":"第 對照行政院提案 第五項為行政院提案的第六項 第六項為行政院提案的第五項其餘均同行政院提案"},{"start":2227.515,"end":2254.335,"text":"第26頁 委員張宏陸等提案第72條在第一項的默劇徵定文字內容為並自負民事責任行為人有二人以上者連帶負民事責任第四項的默劇徵定並自負民事責任行為人有二人以上者連帶負民事責任"},{"start":2256.84,"end":2275.851,"text":"然後徵定第八項文字內容為在中華民國領域外犯本條之罪者亦是用之其餘均衡行政院提案為您以警等提案徵定第七十二條之二凡在中華民國領域外犯前二條之罪者亦是用之"},{"start":2278.72,"end":2301.859,"text":"宣讀行政院韓勤審議委員王美惠等19人委員李坤臣等17人委員吳麗華等16人委員黃潔燈22人委員吳佩儀等16人委員林楚瑩等17人委員沈伯陽等18人委員蔡易宇等16人委員郭育晴等16人委員陳蘇悅等21人委員陳秀寶等18人委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱若驊等18人委員邱振軍等20人委員范雲等16人"},{"start":2302.72,"end":2323.589,"text":"委員何欣淳等18人 委員羅美玲等17人委員施富奎等17人 委員吳啟明等16人委員羅廷瑋等17人 委員侯孟凱等16人委員林俊憲等23人委員李博義等16人及委員張宏祿等16人分別擬具氣象法第21條之1條文修正草案委員張雅玲等17人擬具氣象法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2324.409,"end":2347.896,"text":"委員張雅玲等17人提案第一條第一項增訂並配合中華民國139年溫室氣體淨零排放目標建立永續發展之氣象資訊基礎雲童線型條文委員張雅玲等提案第二條第一項第13款中段增訂高溫雲童線型條文委員張雅玲等提案新增第4條之一中央主管機關應配合國家淨零排放政策建立大氣環境及氣候監測"},{"start":2349.176,"end":2365.706,"text":"制度搜集分析並公開大氣中主要溫室氣體濃度氣候變化趨勢及其與極端氣象事件之關聯作為國家氣候變遷調試及檢探角色之基礎資料前項資料應與環境部國家發展委員會經濟部教育部及地方政府共享"},{"start":2366.843,"end":2396.053,"text":"委員張雅玲等提案 新增第四條 職二中央主管機關應促進氣象資料與能源交通國土農業及公共衛生等領域之整合應用推動各部門依氣象與氣象趨勢調整檢探及調適策略 委員張雅玲等提案 新增第四條 職三中央主管機關應蒐集並分析與兒童及少年高溫暴露相關之氣象資料 建立兒童及少年氣候風險指標 提供教育部衛生福利部及地方政府研擬"},{"start":2396.793,"end":2413.227,"text":"健康調適及校園防護措施之依據前項資料得以及時預警或公告方式發布以下提案調適居為第21條之一行政院提案增訂第4項因過失毀壞或以其他非法方法危害氣象設施或設備之功能正常運作者"},{"start":2413.807,"end":2436.359,"text":"處六月以下有期徒刑拘役或科興台幣兩百萬元以下罰金原條文第四項第一列為第五項增凝第六項供第一項至第三項及前項犯罪用之工具船舶或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收資金裁判沒收確定者則是個案情節需要拍賣或變賣或專案報准以下列方式之一處之之"},{"start":2437.259,"end":2459.766,"text":"一 無長留工公用 二 廢棄 三 為其他適當之處置 與同現行條文委員王美惠等提案 委員吳麗華等提案 委員吳佩儀等提案 委員林儲英等提案 委員蔡玉等提案 委員陳秀寶等提案 委員陳亭飛等提案 委員范雲等提案 委員何新淳等提案 委員徐步奎等提案 委員吳清明等提案 委員洪孟楷等提案 委員張雅琳等提案"},{"start":2460.126,"end":2484.433,"text":"均同行政院提案委員李坤誠等17人提案第4項後段增訂出一年以下有期徒刑拘役或課薪台幣300萬元以下罰金與同行政院提案委員黃潔等提案增訂第7項因潛藏因沒收傳播之情形者其犯罪行刺之全部收益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之但與全部或一部不能沒收時追徵起價了與同行政院提案委員沈伯陽等提案"},{"start":2484.913,"end":2507.998,"text":"第四項手續增訂因過失毀壞氣象設施或設備之功能正常運作者雲童委員李昆城等17人提案委員郭育晴等提案第一項中斷增訂不問請所有權屬沒收之雲童行政院提案委員陳素月等提案中第四項中斷增訂或併科第六項中斷增訂所有權或其他權利與沒收裁判確定時已轉為國家所有並與同行政院提案"},{"start":2509.212,"end":2535.089,"text":"委員邱若驊等十八人提案第五項手續增訂供第一項及第二項犯罪用之傳播或其他機械設備中斷修正為其經判決沒收確定者行政院提案第五項一列為第六項與同行政院提案委員邱政經等二十人提案第一項第四項後段均增訂並自負民事責任行為人有二人以上者連帶負民事責任第六項中斷修正的事個案情節需要訂定廠商資格限制條件拍賣或變賣"},{"start":2535.87,"end":2541.206,"text":"增訂第七八項 以下列情形之一危害海嵐管線之功能正常運作者不予觸發"},{"start":2543.924,"end":2567.616,"text":"為緊急避難或確保船舶航空系海堤或其他重大工程設施安全而為維護國防安全或因天然災害戰爭或依法令之行為三為防止排除或減輕污染保護環境或為特殊研究需要經主管機關同意在中華民國領域外犯本條之罪者亦適用之與同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第二項第三項罰金經和上限分別修正為一億元一千五"},{"start":2568.436,"end":2585.895,"text":"一億五千萬元一億兩千萬元雲童行政院提案委員羅廷維等提案第四項手續修正因過失毀損或以其他方法妨害危害氣象設施雲童行政院提案委員林俊憲等提案第四項手續修正因過失毀損或以其他方法危害氣象設施雲童行政院提案"},{"start":2586.756,"end":2610.137,"text":"委員李柏毅等提案 增訂第六項第三款銷毀原第三款第一為第四款與同行政院提案委員張宏祿等19人提案第一項第四項後段均增進並自負民事責任行為人有兩人以上者連帶負民事責任第六項中段增訂定定資格限制條件增訂第七項在中華民國領域外犯本條之罪者亦是用之與同行政院提案"},{"start":2611.298,"end":2634.523,"text":"宣讀行政院函勤審議委員王美惠等20人委員李昆城等18人委員吳麗華等16人委員羅美玲等19人委員黃潔等22人委員邱振軍等23人委員吳佩儀等16人委員林楚英等17人委員沈伯陽等19人委員蔡玉玉等16人委員郭玉琴等16人委員陳肅岳等21人委員陳秀寶等17人委員陳提芬等16人"},{"start":2635.983,"end":2652.859,"text":"委員張亞玲等17人 委員邱六華等16人委員何欣淳等19人 委員徐富奎等17人委員吳啟明等16人 委員羅廷偉等18人委員洪孟海等16人 委員李柏鈺等16人及委員張侯璐等19人分別女郡相反法第5條及第65條之4條 文收正"},{"start":2655.939,"end":2671.201,"text":"以下條四均為第十五條之一行政院提案第一項中斷或港區安全時得之後修正為令其於三個月內領港或指定地點立起移撥未應規定移撥者得定進行移撥並於完成移撥後令其於三個月內領港"},{"start":2672.751,"end":2701.057,"text":"與同現行條文委員黃美惠等提案第一項中斷或港區安全時得字之後修正為令其於三個月內離港或指定地點令請移博或疏散他處停泊為依規定移博或疏散他處停泊者與同行政院提案委員李坤成等委員吳麗華等委員黃潔等委員邱振軍等委員吳佩義等委員林楚英等委員沈伯央等委員蔡易瑜等委員陳秀寶等委員陳亭飛等委員張雅玲等"},{"start":2701.437,"end":2709.942,"text":"委員何新成等委員吳祁銘等委員羅廷維等委員洪孟凱等委員李柏毅等提案軍統行政院提案"},{"start":2712.096,"end":2734.057,"text":"委員羅梅林等19人提案第一項中段修正因令其於三個月內離港與同行政院提案委員郭育晴等16人提案第一項前段修正認為持續滯留有妨礙末段修正或疏散他處停泊者與同行政院提案委員陳素月等提案第一項中段修正兩個月內離港與同行政院提案委員邱若驊等"},{"start":2734.818,"end":2750.289,"text":"第一項修正得令其三個月內離港或指定地點立起移泊或疏散他處停泊 與同行政院提案委員許富奎等提案第一項修正或指定地點立起移泊或疏散他處停泊 未依規定移泊或疏散他處停泊者與同行政院提案"},{"start":2750.769,"end":2777.413,"text":"委員張宏祿等提案第一項中斷修正得令其三個月內離港或指定定解令其於指定期限內已博與同行政院提案以下提案條次均為新增第65條之四行政院提案傳播經商港經營事業機構航港局或指定機關應第15條第一項規定令其限期離港無正當理由位於所定期限離港者不問屬於何人所有由航港局或指定機關沒入之"},{"start":2779.95,"end":2800.103,"text":"第60條第一項規定留置之外國商船經查有船舶登記船舶證書國際海事組織船舶識別編號或其他船舶識別資料與實際其行不符者航港局或指定機關應令船舶所有人或其代理人於三個月內補證正當理由所有權證明及相關船舶證書借其為補證者"},{"start":2802.084,"end":2827.097,"text":"該外國商船不問屬於何人所有由航港局或指定機關沒入之委員王美惠等 委員李昆純等委員武麗華等 委員黃潔等委員邱振軍等 委員林儲英等委員沈伯陽等 委員蔡奕宇等委員陳秀寶等 委員陳亭飛等委員張雅玲等 委員何新純等委員徐富奎等 委員吳祺銘等委員洪孟凱等 委員李博義等均同行政院提案"},{"start":2829.232,"end":2852.987,"text":"委員羅美玲等提案第一項不問屬於何人所有收證為無論其所有權人為何第二項後段增訂為航港局或指定機關應立其所有人或代理人於三個月內補證所有權證明文件或相關傳播證書借其為補證者該外國商船不論其所有人為何由航港局或指定機關沒入之與同行政院提案委員吳佩儀等提案第一項"},{"start":2853.587,"end":2876.697,"text":"第二项不问属于何人所有修正为不问其所有权属与同行政院提案委员郭玉晴等16人提案第一项末段修正位于其县内离港者不问其所有权人为何得由航港局或行政院指定之机关没入之第二项中段修正航港局或行政院指定之机关应命传播所有人或代理人于三个月内补正相关文件与证当理由"},{"start":2877.062,"end":2904.695,"text":"借其未補正者該外國商船不問所有權人為何得由香港局或行政院指定之機關沒入之與同行政院提案委員陳素月等提案第二項中斷修正兩個月內補正正當理由與同行政院提案委員邱若驊等提案第二項手續修正第60條之一與同行政院提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案第一項中斷修正通知現其離港無正當理由位於其縣內離港者不問其所有權權屬"},{"start":2905.675,"end":2932.437,"text":"由航港局或指定机关办理没入第二项前段修正清查其船舶登记船舶证书国际海事组织船舶识别编号或其他识别资料与实际情形不符者航港局或指定机关应通知其船舶所有人或代理人于三个月内补证相关文件或资料借其未补证者不问其所有权权属由航港局或指定机关办理没入于同行政院提案委员张宏禄等19人提案增订第二项第一"},{"start":2932.697,"end":2947.158,"text":"第第六十條第一項規定留置之外國商船航港局或指定機關得儲船舶所有人或船長新台幣三十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰還原第二項第一為第三項刪除聚首首前項二字與同行政院提案"},{"start":2948.809,"end":2964.021,"text":"宣讀行政院含情審議 委員蔡奇昌等22人 委員王美惠等21人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人 委員黃婕等16人 委員徐富奎等16人 委員吳佩儀等16人 委員林楚英等17人 委員徐伯"},{"start":2964.681,"end":2993.741,"text":"省博洋等19人委員蔡易玉等17人委員郭玉琴等16人委員陳素月等21人委員陳秀寶等17人委員陳聽飛等16人委員張雅玲等17人委員邱振軍等22人委員何新淳等18人委員羅美玲等18人委員吳其明等16人委員李博義等16人委員張宏祿等18人及委員洪孟凱等16人分別擬據傳播法部分條文修正草案委員蘇巧慧等18人擬據傳播法第8條及第89條條文修正草案"},{"start":2995.422,"end":3014.725,"text":"委員蔡奇商等22人提案第一項第一條手具修正為船舶同航行人民安全及海洋環境與同線型條文委員徐富奎等提案第三條第一項第一款中段修正包含擔補限於客船第二款修正客船只非小船或遊艇且乘客定額超過12人以上12人之船舶"},{"start":3015.425,"end":3043.607,"text":"第四款中段修正且特种人员定额超过十二人之船舶增订第五款渔船只用于商业财补水产生物之船舶但不包含渔乐渔业渔船原条文第五款至第十二款第一为第六款至第十三款原第十三款第十四款定义为第十五款第十六款第七款船舶修正为游艇第八款非自用修正为营业用第十二款增订第七目第三十七条之依规定之船舶所登载之工业人员"},{"start":3045.029,"end":3065.146,"text":"13款訓文墨具修正特定任務之下列人員一在船上從事研究非商業性探險與探測之科學家技術人員及探險家二從事學習海洋相關職業技能之訓練及實習人員三於加工船從事魚類或海洋生物處理人員四"},{"start":3066.301,"end":3088.115,"text":"救難船隻救難人員不攬船隻不攬人員地震勘測船隻地震勘測人員潛水支援船隻潛水人員不管船隻不管人員之其中工作船隻其中機操作人員五其他經航證機關審認與私募相近類別之人員增訂第十四款工業人員職委制定一艘船舶或離岸設施進行"},{"start":3089.116,"end":3104.669,"text":"海上工業活動由船舶運送或居住與船上之人員增訂第17款增進水域只位於下列水域1中華民國領海及領域區第5條地定之領海外界線以內之水域2台灣地區大陸人民"},{"start":3105.49,"end":3122.813,"text":"大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定公告之金門 韓東定 烏丘 馬祖 韓東影 亮島及南沙地區之限制禁止水域委員蘇巧慧等提案第8條增訂第二項非中華民國船舶除經中華民國政府特許"},{"start":3123.925,"end":3139.49,"text":"或無害通過外部的在中華民國領海滯留整頂第三項前項無害通過之認定與管理准用中華民國領海及領階區法第七條及第八條規定與同現行條文以下提案未宣讀條四的軍統行政院提案"},{"start":3140.49,"end":3154.563,"text":"行政院提案新增第八條之一下列船舶除公務船舶與海上執法或航行水域開啟船舶自動識別系統船載台有下危害船舶安全之餘者應與航行毛泊時維持"},{"start":3157.688,"end":3177.541,"text":"該設備正常運作並發送正確之船名國際海事組織船舶識別編號海上行動業務識別碼及船舶呼號等船舶識別資訊一一本法規定應設船應裝設船舶自動識別系統船載台之中華民國船舶二與中華民國領海外界線以內水域"},{"start":3178.001,"end":3198.542,"text":"或台灣地區禁止水域依海上人命安全國際公約規定應裝設傳播自動識別系統傳載台之非中華民國傳播傳播自動識別系統傳載台故障未能正常運作時及應即通報航政機關並以航政機關鎖定期限完成改善或令其按時通報船舶位置"},{"start":3200.063,"end":3228.566,"text":"委員王美惠等提案 無第一項手續與同行政院提案 委員李坤澄 委員吳麗華委員林楚瑩 委員蔡易瑜 委員陳素月委員陳秀寶 委員陳亭飛 委員張雅玲委員何欣淳 委員吳祺銘 委員洪孟凱等提案均同行政院提案 委員黃潔等16人提案第一項手續下列傳播後無逗號 第二項默劇完成改善後無逗號與同行政院提案委員吳佩儀等提案 第一項第二款手續修正政府公告之禁止水域"},{"start":3228.906,"end":3253.165,"text":"第二項第二具修正應立即通報行政機關與同行政院提案委員沈柏洋等提案第一項第二款領海外界限修正為領海台灣地區修正為應台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定公告之與同行政院提案委員郭玉琴等提案第一項修正公務船舶執行海上執法任務或與航經高風險海域開啟船舶自動識別系統"},{"start":3254.346,"end":3268.977,"text":"船載台有危害船舶安全之餘者 中斷修正並持續並持續發送正確之船名 第一項第一款修正依本法及其授權命令規定 第一項第二款無雙書名號及莫修正非中華民國及船舶"},{"start":3270.404,"end":3292.149,"text":"第二項修正中斷傳播所有人或船長應即通報航證機關並於指定期限內完成修復未能與期限內修復者應令航證機關之指示定時通報傳播位置與同行政院提案委員修正均等提案第二項守據後增訂出有正當理由外與同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第一項刪除"},{"start":3292.549,"end":3319.907,"text":"除公务船舶与海上执法或航行水域开启船舶自动识别系统船载台有危害船舶安全之余者外增订第二项前项规定与海上执法之公务船舶或航行与开启该设备有危害船舶安全之余之水域者不在此限原第二项第一为第三项与同行政院提案委员李博弈等提案第二项莫具修正银行证机关之规定定时通报船舶位置与同行政院提案委员庄宏禄等提案"},{"start":3320.788,"end":3335.583,"text":"同委員邱振軍等22人提案委員蔡啟昌等22人提案非中華民國船舶依海上人民安全國際公約規定應裝設船舶自動識別系統船載台者與我國沿近海水域航行或渺泊應維持"},{"start":3339.386,"end":3367.131,"text":"船舶自動識別系統船載台正常運作發送正確之船名國際海事組織船舶識別編號海上行動業務識別碼船舶呼號等船舶識別資訊但因特殊情形有下不公開其航行資訊之必要經航證機關許可者不在此限請向船舶因船舶自動識別系統船載台故障無法維持該設備正常運作者應通報航證機關並因依航證機關所定期限完成改善"},{"start":3368.396,"end":3383.727,"text":"委員石富奎等16人提案第8條之3下列船舶應與航行或描舶時維持船舶自動識別系統船載台正常運作發送正確之船名國際海事組織船舶識別編號水上行動業務識別碼船舶呼號等識別資訊"},{"start":3389.264,"end":3411.311,"text":"一本法規定應裝設傳播自動識別系統傳載台之中華民國傳播二嚴禁水域依海上人民安全國國際公約規定應裝設傳播自動識別系統傳載台之非中華民國傳播三因傳播自動識別系統傳載台故障無法維持該設備正常運作者應通報航程機關並依航程機關鎖定期限完成改善傳"},{"start":3412.211,"end":3431.391,"text":"傳播因特殊情形有不公開航行資訊之必要經航證機關許可者不適用第一項規定委員時付款等提案新增第八條之一經目的事業主管機關許可與嚴禁水域或專屬經濟海域從事施工維域探勘或調查之非中華民國傳播應向航證機關申請許可並取得傳播許可"},{"start":3434.134,"end":3452.154,"text":"傳播安全許可文件時的作業行政機關於許可時並得為付款前向申請許可之程序文與文件工作目的項目與期間責任保險投保方式最低投保金額與保險範圍許可有效期限許可文件之核發換發變更展期廢止撤銷"},{"start":3452.934,"end":3474.606,"text":"審查費之收取及其他應遵行事項置辦法由主管機關定之第一項非中華民國船舶應雇用中華民國及船員之人數比例與培訓由主管機關公告之委員徐步奎等提案新增八條之二非中華民國船舶及設定船舶類型及特定船舶類型之中華民國船舶與離岸風力發電廠此從事施工維運探勘調查者應具備主管機關委託驗船機構核發之船級證書"},{"start":3480.249,"end":3507.537,"text":"特定船舶类型有航政机关公告之中华民国船舶及非中华民国船舶于到达及离开离岸风力发电厂址前应有船舶所有人或其代理人以航政机关公告之程序通报航政机关并维持船舶自动识别系统船载台正常运作中华民国渔船于离岸风力发电厂址通过或从事渔业活动海岸巡防机关公务船舶入出离岸风力发电厂之行公务时不适用前项通报规定"},{"start":3508.737,"end":3518.956,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案第10條第二項修正前項標示因為正確標示並不得毀壞圖改或隱蔽但暫時未避免不或者不在此限行政院提案"},{"start":3520.345,"end":3541.702,"text":"新增第十條之一非中華民國船舶於中華民國領海外界線以內水域或台灣地區禁止水域航行或忙舶者時船身應具備下列標誌依船民國際航海事組織船舶識別編號但依海上人命安全國際公約規定無需具備者不在此限前項標誌因為正確標示並不得毀壞圖改或隱蔽"},{"start":3545.445,"end":3560.891,"text":"委員王美惠等 委員李坤澄等委員吳麗華等 委員黃潔等委員林儲英等 委員蔡育宇等委員陳素月等 委員陳秀寶等委員陳亭飛等 委員張雅玲等委員邱振軍等 委員何新淳等委員吳齊明等 委員李博義等委員洪孟楷等 均同行政院提案"},{"start":3562.233,"end":3585.076,"text":"委員吳佩奕等第一項手續修正政府公告之禁止水域航行或苗博所與同行政院提案委員沈伯陽等提案第一項手續修正與中華民國領海之以內水域或一大陸臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定公告之禁止水域與同行政院提案委員郭玉琴等提案第一項續文莫居修正予以長生"},{"start":3585.776,"end":3608.658,"text":"應予傳聲明顯位置標示下列資訊第二項修正前項標示應保持清晰證券不得毀損圖看隱蔽或以其他方式妨礙識別與同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第一項具備修正為標示第一項第二款無需具備修正為免予標示第二項增訂墨具其標示方法應符合海上人民安全國際公約相關規範與同行政院提案委員張宏祿等提案增訂第一項第三款其他應具備標示委員"},{"start":3609.658,"end":3633.715,"text":"菜市場等二十二人提案第一項手續修正非中華民國傳播於嚴禁水域航行或苗撥者與同行政院提案委員徐富奎等提案第一項手續修正於嚴禁水域與同行政院提案委員徐富奎等提案第十一條第二項第七目前段修正在有在有乘客者其乘客名冊或客船安全證書或非客船搭客證書中段修正經主管機關公告指定之水域得免備乘客名冊"},{"start":3634.575,"end":3659.706,"text":"山竹地欠行条文第十目限行条文第十一目第二十二目第一为第十目第十一目行政院提案新增第十一条之一总登位第一百五十以上之非中华民国船舶已于中华民国海岭海界线以内水域或台湾地区禁止水域航行或苗博者应具备航海日志详实记载航行活动运用事故者并应一并载明前项航行活动及事故应记载事项如下一船舶开航前之船舶状态"},{"start":3661.247,"end":3675.528,"text":"2 傳播航行起見與航程有關的詳細資料3 傳播發生事故或特殊事故之詳細資訊4 傳播描播或在港時之操作或行政事務資訊與傳播安全及保全"},{"start":3676.108,"end":3698.714,"text":"有關之詳細資訊委員王美惠等委員李坤城等委員吳麗華等委員黃潔等委員林楚英等委員蔡宇等委員陳素月等委員陳秀寶等委員陳廷飛等委員張雅玲等委員邱振軍等委員何新淳等委員吳清明等委員李博義等委員洪茉凱等軍統行政院提案委員吳佩義等六人提案第一項手續修正政府公告之禁止水域航行或描播證明"},{"start":3699.335,"end":3727.632,"text":"與同行政院提案委員沈波揚等提案第一項臨海萬界限修正為臨海台灣地區修正為依台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定公告之與同行政院提案委員郭玉琴等提案第一項第一項後段修正應備之航海日誌像是記載航行活動及事故情形前向航行活動及事故應至少記載下列情形一船舶開航前至狀態及檢查情形二航行期間與航程相關之詳細資訊三航程中發生事故或特殊事件之經過與處理情形"},{"start":3729.073,"end":3740.744,"text":"四 苗博與停博期間之操作管理與給予船舶安全保全有關事項 委員羅美玲等提案第一項手續總兌換一百五十以上之非中華民國船舶後增加逗號與同行政院提案"},{"start":3741.806,"end":3759.672,"text":"委員張宏祿等提案第一項末段增訂行政院提案第二項雲童行政院提案委員蔡錦昌等提案第一項手續修正嚴禁水域墨具修正遇有事故因一併攢明第二項手續軍墨修正下列事項雲童行政院提案委員徐富奎等提案第一項中段修正嚴禁水域墨具修正遇有事故因一併續名雲童行政院提案"},{"start":3760.552,"end":3788.244,"text":"委員許富奎等提案第二三條第三項船修正船舶應依規定檢查合格船舶所有人及船長並依將設備整理完妥妥善維護客船營業用遊艇或載客小船發航前船長或駕駛並依規定點檢船舶確保其試航性使得航行第四項增訂船舶與新船建造船身修改或佈置邊跟前船舶建造改造業者或船舶所有人應將有關這圖說送航證機關或主管機關委託"},{"start":3789.805,"end":3819.145,"text":"知厌传机构审核未经核可部分不得施公员第四项第一为第五项运动线性条文委员署复规等提案第26条第一项手续修正传播资特别检查合格之日起后段增订并得提前申请但提前申请检查且检查合格日期早于原因申请检查实现之首日者因自该次第起检查合格日后三个月起每届满一年之前后三个月内申请实行定期检查运动线性条文"},{"start":3820.145,"end":3845.314,"text":"委員許富奎等提案第二十七條增訂第一項第四款未涉及船身修改之船舶佈置變更與同現行條文委員許富奎等提案第二十八條第二項墨具修正船舶所有人應與檢查不合格日期一個月內重新申請定期檢查或特別檢查與同現行條文委員許富奎等提案第二十八條之一第二項前段修正船輪未滿十二年全艙未滿二十四公尺且乘客定額十二人以下自用遊艇且"},{"start":3846.414,"end":3872.428,"text":"其所有人為依第六十六條第一項規定提送自主檢查表逾期滿五年時 行政機關應依前項程序辦理與同現行條文委員徐富奎等提案第二十八條之二第一項中斷修正停航期限以一年為限增訂第三項第四項為港口管理機關購海巡機關與收到行政機關通知後應配合管制下列傳播出港二 停航停航傳播"},{"start":3873.615,"end":3888.326,"text":"一停航船舶二未檢查合格船舶三京航證機關一本法處禁止航行之船舶本法中華民國某年某月某日修正條文施行日前京航證機關許可停航之船舶其停航許可子重本法中華民國某年某月"},{"start":3888.726,"end":3916.779,"text":"某日修正條文施行日期一年後施行效力與同現行條文為原始覆軌等提案第28條之三第一項修正行政機關對下列船舶之航行安全事項得實施行抽查船舶所有人船長遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛不得拒絕規避或妨礙依中華民國船舶二經特許於中華民國各港口間運送客貨之非中華民國船舶三經核准從事營業用遊艇業務之非中華民國船舶四經特許停泊於國際商港"},{"start":3917.299,"end":3938.196,"text":"以外其他港湾港湾口岸之非中华民国船舶5停泊于国际商港之非中华民国游艇于同信心条文委员徐富奎等提案新生第37条之一工业人员定额超过12人之船舶应由船舶所有人或船长向行政机关申请检查合格取得证书前向船舶之检查构造船"},{"start":3939.378,"end":3951.152,"text":"倉區劃分與穩度機器與電器裝備安裝防火構造設備兼載貨物應急準備工業人員定額資格與管理證書核發換補發註銷撤銷或繳銷檢查費與證書費之收取及其他應遵行事項之規則由主管機關定制前向"},{"start":3958.38,"end":3976.332,"text":"船舶搭載乘客特種人員及各工業人員總人數不得超過其工業人數定額違約時付款等提案新增第52條之一11條第二項第7款規定應被乘客名冊之客船客船所有人應要求船長或其指定人員"},{"start":3977.012,"end":4002.537,"text":"於乘客登船時核實確實核對其身份證明文件並依航證機關公告之程序將乘客名冊提報航證機關但情形特殊經航證機關核准者不再實現委員徐富奎等提案第57條第一項貨船修訂為非客船增訂第二項非客船搭載搭載乘客不得超過核定之乘客定額與同現行條文委員徐富奎等提案第59條"},{"start":4004.631,"end":4024.257,"text":"審定第二項遊艇乘客定額不得超過三十六人但本法中華民國某年某月某日修正施行前已取得遊艇證書且五第六十一條第一項第三款或第四款規定應申請施行特別檢查知情行者不在此限原第二項第一位第三項與同現行條文委員許附賄等提案第六十條修正營業用"},{"start":4025.878,"end":4042.519,"text":"遊艇與同線型條文委員許富奎等提案第六十一條第二項修正且乘客定額十二人以下之自用遊艇第二項修正全長二十四公尺以上之營業用遊艇因應下列規定辦理依新船建造時應施行建造中特別檢查並經主管機關委託之驗船機"},{"start":4045.002,"end":4068.838,"text":"檢驗入籍不是用第一項第一款規定第二 自國外輸入時應具備建造中檢驗文件與輸入前之傳奇證書增訂第四項全長24公尺以上或乘客定額超過12人之自用遊艇及前項以外之營業用遊艇應第一項第一款及第二款申請施行特別檢查時應具備主管機關認可之驗證機構所核發之船體結構安全證明"},{"start":4072.367,"end":4091.361,"text":"與同現行條文委員時覆軌等提案第62條第一項中段修正第三項第一款增訂第二項遊艇所有人於遊艇登記或註冊後予有傳聲形式不知或容量變更或察覺丈量及噸位計算有錯誤時應申請重新丈量並換發遊艇證書其遊航證機關發掘者應由該機關重新丈量並換發遊艇證書與同現行條文"},{"start":4098.266,"end":4123.278,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案第65條第一項續文中段修正於每屆滿一年之前後三個月內末段修正必要時得提前申請但提前申請檢查且檢查合格日期早於原因申請檢查時限之首日者因此該次定期檢查合格日後三個月起每屆滿一年前之前後三個月內申請實行定期檢查第一款修正營業用第三款修正乘客定額源第三項修正為第一項第四款傳"},{"start":4124.839,"end":4149.698,"text":"遊艇船輪載12年以上者 原地3項 第1為第2項與同現行條文維園區覆軌等提案第66條 第一項聚首刪除遊艇中斷修正乘客定額刪除第二項 原地3項第4項 第1為第23項與同現行條文維園區覆軌等提案第70條 第二項修正自用後非中華民國遊艇不得作為營業用遊艇使用 但非中華民國遊艇符合下列條件並經主管機關核准者不在此限"},{"start":4150.622,"end":4171.948,"text":"第五条第二项第三款锁定公司乘租全长18公尺以上且乘客定额36人以下之非中华民国优体二一主管机关锁定保险金额投保责任投保责任保险及乘客伤害保险三减负下列文件关乎一行政规费缴纳收据关乎二外国政府出具之市行证明文件关乎三主管机关认可之"},{"start":4172.529,"end":4198.155,"text":"驗證機構合法符合第七十條第二項鎖定規則規定知識行證明文件其效期以一年為限公告四其他金主管機關公告之文件四第一項陳促至非中華民國遊艇應符合第十五條之一輸入現成船年限表之規定與同現行條文維園需付虧等提案第七十一條第一項莫具修正維園規定投保者遊艇不得航行第二項中斷修正乘客定額責任保險投保金額登記或註冊與同現行條文"},{"start":4199.695,"end":4220.948,"text":"委员书富奎等提案新增第71条之一从事营业用游艇业务者因依法办妥公司登记及依主管机关锁定保险金额为乘客投保伤害保险并订定营业计划报请行政机关核定后使得从事营业用游艇业务便跟时一同前向伤害保险至受益人以备保险人人"},{"start":4221.584,"end":4227.268,"text":"或其法定計權違憲並不受保險法第135條準用105條107條規定之限制第一項之保險期間屆滿時從事營業用遊艇業務者應予續保從事營業用遊艇業務之申請資格傷害保險投保金額營業計劃相關規費之收取及其他應遵行事項之規則由主管機關定之"},{"start":4245.325,"end":4268.62,"text":"行政院提案第七十二條第一項第二項中斷第八十九條第一項之後增訂第八十九條之一與同現行條文委員汪美惠委員李坤澄委員吳麗華委員黃姐委員吳佩儀委員吳黎初音委員沈伯陽委員蔡依宇委員郭育琴委員陳素月委員陳秀寶委員陳亭飛委員張雅玲委員邱振鈞委員何新淳委員羅美玲委員吳啟明委員李博義委員張宏祿委員洪孟凱均同行政院提案"},{"start":4269.867,"end":4289.322,"text":"委員徐富奎等16人提案第一項第28條之二第一項之後修正第三項第四項第28條之三第84條之第一第一項之後修正第89條第89條之二第89條之三第二項第90條第一項第91條第一項第四項第92條至第95條左右踢條第一項第一款第三項"},{"start":4289.932,"end":4306.049,"text":"及99條至102條規定外第二項手續修正為營業用遊艇第28條之二第一項之後修正第三項第四項第28條之三第84條之四之後修正第89條第89條之二第89條之三第二項第90條第一項"},{"start":4307.403,"end":4329.718,"text":"第九十一条之第九十五条第三项手续删除自用游艇及非自用增订第四项第五项游艇准用第三十四条之一规定违反者依第九十条第四项规定处罚营业用游艇之检查账量载重线游艇证书及登记或注册规定于乘客定格三十六人以下娱乐渔业渔船得是准用之与同现行条文"},{"start":4330.518,"end":4349.396,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案第73條第二項修正行政機關因業務需要得將小船檢查丈量業務委託專業機構團體或領有執照之合格造船技師辦理受委託專業機構團體或造船技師之資格條件申請收取費用監督費值及種植等事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":4349.916,"end":4375.022,"text":"與同現行條文委員許富奎等提案第76條後段修正小船所有人與小船註冊後遇有船身形式佈置或容量變更或察覺丈量及噸位計算有錯誤時應申請重新丈量或並換發小船執照其由航證機關發掘者應由該機關重新丈量並換發小船執照與同現行條文委員許富奎等提案第78條第一項序文後段修正必要時得提前申請但提前申請檢查但檢查合格之"},{"start":4377.483,"end":4405.738,"text":"合格日期早于约应申请检查时限之首日者定期检查时限应以该次定期检查合格日后三个月起算之与同现行条文委员徐富奎等提案第八十一条第二项修正小船经特别检查合格后航政机关应核发或换发小船执照期有效期间以十年为限但载客小船船龄超过二十年者核发换发小船执照之有效期限期间不得超过二十年与同现行条文"},{"start":4406.238,"end":4413.041,"text":"行政院提案第82條第一項中斷於第89條第一項之後增加第89條之一與同線形條文"},{"start":4414.278,"end":4439.447,"text":"委員王美惠 委員李坤澄 委員吳麗華 委員黃潔 委員吳佩儀 委員丁楚英 委員沈博洋 委員蔡易宇 委員郭育晴 委員陳素燁 委員陳秀寶 委員陳亭飛 委員張雅玲 委員邱振鈞 委員何新淳 委員羅美玲 委員李博義 委員張厚祿 委員洪孟凱 均同行政院提案 委員徐富奎等提案第一項修正小傳出本章第一章第15條之一 第二十三條第四項第二十七條第一項第二十八條第二十八條之一第一項與第三項"},{"start":4440.068,"end":4444.508,"text":"第28條之二 第一項 第三項 第四項 第28條之三 第四條之一"},{"start":4444.983,"end":4472.917,"text":"第40條第一項第41條第一項與第二項前段第89條第89條之二第89條第43第一項第二項第90條第一項第92條第93條第94條第97條第一項第一款第98條及第99條之102條規定外不適用本法之規定第三項後段修正違反者第90條第4項規定處罰與同現行條文委員許富奎等16人提案新增第8張莊名扶具"},{"start":4474.884,"end":4492.15,"text":"新增第83條之一委員許富奎等16人提案新增第83條之一本法所稱扶具指非屬船舶專攻有器娛樂具有福利可供人員於水面或水中操作騎乘之器具除非與業用動力管閥及水上摩托車"},{"start":4493.45,"end":4519.928,"text":"推进动力不得超过12000瓦扶具器具之管理依本条之规定本条未规定者依其他中央法律及地方自治法规办理扶具有下列情形之一者无本法之适用一无动力二动力未满3000瓦三最大长度两公尺以下使用扶具不得超过行政机关核定之操作启程人数扶具所有人并依完成下列事项实得于适用水域使用之"},{"start":4520.526,"end":4547.707,"text":"一航政机关办理登录并取得证明二表示明确之器具编号三设备整理完妥整理完妥四操作启程人数三人以上者必经航政机关检测合格不具操作启程人员皆应着救生应出操作启程于江河湖泊及其他内陆水道外人数不得超过五人适用水域已据按三海里为限但适用水域经向航政机关申请许可者不再上开"},{"start":4549.025,"end":4560.824,"text":"具案范围之限制不具之检测登录操作其成人数设备适用水域及其许可豁免等及等效申请程序证明及核发换补发撤销废止注销或缴销"},{"start":4561.503,"end":4586.016,"text":"規備之收取及其他應遵循事項之規則有主管機關定之委員是附會等提案第89條被中華民國傳播違反第8條之一第一項規定未取得安全許可文件或安全許可文件與其與嚴禁水域或與或中華民國專屬經濟海域從事施工維運探勘或調查者有行政機關處傳播所有人或船長新台幣30萬元以上300萬元以下罰款"},{"start":4586.836,"end":4604.506,"text":"並命請立即停止作業及限期改善藉其未改善者案次處罰並得通知目的事業主管機關廢止其作業許可非中華民國傳播從事施工維運探勘或調查期間其依第八條之一第二項鎖定辦法之規定申請許可並應檢附文件事項"},{"start":4605.227,"end":4618.989,"text":"由行政机关处传播所有人或船长新台币十万元以上一百万元以下罚还并命其令即停止作业即限其改善即其为改善者按次处罚得废止其许可并得通知目的事业主管机关废止其作业许可"},{"start":4620.031,"end":4643.408,"text":"非中華民國傳播從事施工違運探勘或調查期間違反一第八條之一第三項公告有關僱用本國籍傳援人數比率與培訓規定者有行政機關處傳播所有人清台幣十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還並命其現行改善借其未改善者按次處罰中華民國傳播或非中華民國傳播違反第八條之二第一項規定未取得主管機關委託"},{"start":4644.549,"end":4673.187,"text":"之验传机构为核发之传奇证书或传奇证书失效者有行政机关处传播所有人或船长新台币十万元以上一百万元以下法环并命期限期改善及其未改善者按次处罚中华民国传播或非中华民国传播违反第八条职二第三项规定到达或离开离岸风力发电厂发电厂址前未依规定通报者有行政机关处传播所有人新台币十万元以上一百万元以下法环并命期限期改善及其未改善者按次处罚"},{"start":4673.727,"end":4687.095,"text":"委員蘇曉慧等18人提案第89條第1項手續修正違反第8條之一第1項增訂第2項違反第8條第2項規定者由行政機關或指定機關命起立即離開中華民國臨海船舶部分處分旅行義務者"},{"start":4688.84,"end":4703.938,"text":"由航政機關處傳播所有任船長、遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下把環必要時得強制驅離或末入其傳播原第二項第一為第三項與同線行條文行政院提案新增第八九條之一有下列情形之一者"},{"start":4704.498,"end":4730.085,"text":"有航政機關因情節輕重處船舶所有人船長遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛新台幣三萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還並得令其限期改善藉其為改善者按次處罰一違反第八條之一第一項規定為維持船舶自動識別系統船載台正常運作或發送不正確之船舶識別資訊二違反第八條之一第二項規定為即通報航政機關或為依航政機關所定期限完成改善"},{"start":4730.965,"end":4750.222,"text":"或未按時通報船舶位置三違反第十條之一第一項規定船身未具備該項鎖定標誌四違反第十條之一第二項規定未正確標示或毀害圖桿隱蔽標誌五違反第十一條之一規定未具備航海日誌或航海日誌未詳時記載航行活動或事故"},{"start":4750.842,"end":4779.26,"text":"前向其行航站机关得令其船舶进港并停泊至指定处所必要时得洽请海岸巡防机关或其他机关协助通知及执行其进港及停泊期限所需费用由船舶所有人船长驾驶游艇驾驶或小船驾驶负担前向进港并停泊至指定处所之船舶进港于三个月未依第一项规定完成改善而有妨碍港口或水域安全治愈者该船舶不问属于何人所有有航站机关或行政院指定之机关没入之"},{"start":4780.612,"end":4801.045,"text":"委員王美惠等 委員王美惠等 委員李坤澄等 委員吳麗華等 委員吳佩儀等 委員林楚一等 委員沈伯央等 委員蔡易餘等 委員陳素月等 委員陳秀寶等 委員陳亭飛等 委員張雅玲等 委員何欣淳等 委員羅美玲等 委員吳祁銘等 委員李博義等 委員洪孟凱等 均同行政院提案 委員黃婕等 提案第一項遊航證機關因情節輕重厚"},{"start":4801.605,"end":4828.369,"text":"五都號並得令期限期改善後五分號第一項第1 2 4 5款或自之前均五都號第4項前項進港並停泊至指定處所之船舶進港後與三個月內未依第一項規定完成改善而有妨礙港口或水運安全之餘者均五都號與同行政院提案委員過於情等提案第一項第二款默劇修正未及通報航政機關未以限期內完成改善或未依規定通報船舶位置"},{"start":4829.31,"end":4851.088,"text":"同向第三款墨具修正船身未具备应标示之船名或识别编号同向第五款墨具修正未备至航海日志或未详实记载航行活动及事故情形第二项前段修正前项情形航政机关得令该船舶进港并停泊至指定处所必要时得洽请海岸巡防机关或其他机关协助通知押送或执行"},{"start":4852.318,"end":4868.873,"text":"第三項前段修正因前項規定進港並停泊至指定處所之船舶進港後與三個月內為人未完成改善且有妨害港口或水域安全之餘者不問其所有權務人為何與同行政院提案委員邱正軍等提案增列第二項前項返還制裁罰標準由主管機關頂之"},{"start":4869.714,"end":4898.942,"text":"其餘款項次以第三項手續修正第一項啟行與同行政院提案委員張宏祿等提案增訂第二項前項返還制裁罰標準由主管機關定之第三項手續修正第一項啟行默劇增訂行政院提案第三項與同行政院提案委員蔡奇昌等提案違反第八條之一第一項前段第十條之一第一項第二項或第十一條之一第一項第二項之規定由行政機關處傳播所有人或船長新台幣三萬元以上一千萬元以下返還並禁止苗博"},{"start":4900.168,"end":4906.529,"text":"禁止航行及限期改善完成後時的放行違反第八條之一第二項規定者由航程機關"},{"start":4909.115,"end":4932.023,"text":"传播所有人或船长新台币六千元以上六万元以下罚还并禁止航行即限期改善完成后时的放行第一项涉及危害国家安全或其他违法行为者海巡机关得主动执法并通知航政机关协助必要时航政机关得命传播进港并停泊至指定处所其进港及停泊期间所需费用由传播所有人或船长负担"},{"start":4933.223,"end":4952.382,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案第八十九條之二有下列情形者由行政機關應請件其中處傳播所有人船長遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛新台幣三百新台幣三萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還兵得命期限期改善借其未改善者按次處罰依違反第八條之二第三項或第八條之三第一項規定未維持"},{"start":4953.142,"end":4975.076,"text":"傳播自動識別系統傳載台陣場運作或發送不正確之傳播識別資訊二違反第十條之一第一項規定未標識未具備標識三違反第十條之一第二項規定未具備標識毀壞圖改或隱蔽標誌四違反第十一條之一規定未具備航海日誌或航海日誌未詳時記載航行活動及事故請向其行政警官得命傳播進港及停泊至"},{"start":4975.496,"end":4990.824,"text":"指定出所必要時下請海巡國防及其他機關協助同志及執行其進港及提撥期間所需費用由船舶所有人船長遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛負擔為繳納第一項發還及前項費用經催告與其人為繳納者該"},{"start":4992.385,"end":5011.444,"text":"传播不问属于何人所有传证机关得没入之于罚还处分或判决确定后并得拍卖变卖销毁或依废弃物清理法及相关法规规定清除嫌像变卖拍卖变卖所得加款应扣除违反本法规定应行缴纳之罚还及其他密钥费用后依法提存"},{"start":5012.632,"end":5021.238,"text":"違反第八条规定者,由航政机关处传播所有人、船长、游艇驾驶或小船驾驶新台币三万元以上六十万元以下罚还并得命其离港。"},{"start":5042.712,"end":5062.14,"text":"承担安全营运与防止污染管理责任之机构负责任或传播所有人薪台币六万元以上六十万元以下罚还违反第三条之一第三项锁定规则有关维持有效之安全营运及防止污染管理制度致影响人员传播安全环境者有行政机关处承担其安全营运与"},{"start":5062.6,"end":5078.633,"text":"防止污染管理責任之機構負責人或傳播所有人新台幣六萬元以上六十萬元以下罰還並命其限制限期改善藉其未改善者得案自處罰經屆重大者行政機關得並得停止其營業之一部或全部貨費指其憑藉合格證書"},{"start":5080.39,"end":5097.684,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案 新增第八九條之三穿駁違反第二三條第四項未計合可而是行者由行政機關處穿駁建造改造業者及穿駁所有人 新台幣一萬五千人以上十五萬元以下罰款並視其情節得命期停工及限期"},{"start":5098.126,"end":5116.433,"text":"送審圖說 拆除及回復原狀未停工或借其未遵行者 案自處罰傳播違反第25條之一 第一項 第三款 第二十七條第一項 第四款 第四十二條 前段第六十一條第一項 第三款 第二十 第六十二條 第七十五條第一項 第一款 第三款"},{"start":5117.355,"end":5137.874,"text":"或第76條規定者有行政機關處傳播所有人新台幣一萬五千元以上十五萬元以下罰還並得命期禁止航行及現行改善見及未改善者案次處罰改善完成後使得放行違反傳播傳播違反第三七條之一第一項第52條第一項或第57條第一項前段規定者未具備證書搭載"},{"start":5140.396,"end":5152.034,"text":"搭载乘客或工业人员由行政机关处传播所有人或船长新台币一万五千元以上十万元以下返还并得命期禁止航行极限期改善改善完成后时的放行"},{"start":5153.22,"end":5170.405,"text":"工業人員定額超過12人之傳播有下列情形之一則由行政機關處傳播所有人或船長新台幣一萬五千元以上是五萬元以下法案並視其情節得命其禁止航行及限其改善藉其為改善者按次處罰改善完成後時的放行"},{"start":5170.785,"end":5187.92,"text":"一大賽制工業人員除以乘客身份登輪者外 會服第37條之一第二項鎖定規則制工業人員資格二違反第37條之一第三項規定搭載乘客特種人員及各工業人員總人數超過其工業人員定額委員徐富奎等提案第90條第一項中斷修正第52條第三項第57條"},{"start":5191.362,"end":5216.844,"text":"第二項或第七四條第二項第二款第二項第三項修正違反第五十二條之一規定未確實核對乘客身份證明文件或未依航證機關公告之程序提報乘客名冊者有航證機關處客船所有人新台幣一萬元以上十五萬元以下以下罰還違反一三四條第二項鎖定規則有關危險品分類識別包裝標記與標示運輸文件裝卸作業之規定者有航證機關處行傳播人"},{"start":5218.746,"end":5229.038,"text":"传播所有人或船长新台币两万元以上十万元以下罚还但行为者经行政经官并且谢其改善已改善完成者免以处罚原第三项利益为第四项与同现行条文"},{"start":5230.151,"end":5255.89,"text":"委員許富奎等提案第九十一條第一項前段修正違反第五十九條第三項第二款第七十條第一項第二項或七十一條第一項規定者後段命修正為得命第二項修正營業用郵艇違反第七十條第三項或第七十條之一第四項鎖定規則有關營業用郵艇與營運管理事項之規定者由行政機關處從事營業用郵艇業務者新台幣一萬五千元以上十五萬元以下罰還"},{"start":5257.051,"end":5285.534,"text":"第三項修正違反第七十條之一第一項規定為依法辦妥公司登記為乘客投保傷害保險或營運營業計劃之定定便跟未報請核定從事營業用遊艇業務或違反同條第三項規定保險期間借其為依續保者有行政機關處從事營業用遊艇業務者新台幣一萬五千元以上十五萬元以下罰還並得命由得並得命其遊艇禁止航行及限期改善改善完成後使得放行原第二項定義為第四項並修正前段"},{"start":5285.874,"end":5289.961,"text":"或第二項後段命修正為得命與同性情條文維園許富奎等提案第九十二條"},{"start":5290.7,"end":5317.927,"text":"第一項前段修正第25條第一項第二款第4款第5款第26條第一項第二7條第一項第一款至第3款第28條第一項後段第30條第39條末段修正即其未有感染者按時處罰第一項至第三條命均修正為得命第二項前段修正第28條之二第一項後段第37條前段第49條第53條第三項規定中段修正中所有人船長遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛第三項前段修正規避或妨礙與同性行條文"},{"start":5318.956,"end":5339.879,"text":"委員署覆軌等提案第九十五條前段修正第六十一條第一項第一款第二款第四款第五款第三項第六十五條第一項後段增訂並得命其禁止航行及現行改善借其未改善者按次處罰改善完成後時的放行雲童現行條文委員署覆軌等提案第九十七條第三項前段修正為第五十九條第三項雲童現行條文"},{"start":5340.84,"end":5357.123,"text":"委員徐富奎等提案第九十八條前段修正第二項第四款第五款第七十七條第一項後段增訂並得命期禁止航行極限期改善屆期未改善者案次處罰改善完成後時得放行與同性條文委員徐富奎等提案新增第九十八條之一"},{"start":5358.497,"end":5386.617,"text":"違反第八條之一第四項規定使用輔具超過行政機關核定之操作啟程人數為依規定完成登錄標示明確之器具編號將設備整理完妥或未經行政機關檢測合格者由行政機關處輔具所有人或使用人新台幣六百元以上一萬元以下罰還並得沒入輔具輔具所有人應完成改善後時的使用違反第八九條之一第五項規定未著救生衣或未依規定適用水域使用輔具者"},{"start":5387.057,"end":5413.28,"text":"由行政機關處扶具所有人或使用人薪台幣六百元以上六千元以下罰還扶具使用人並應立即返回適用水域違反第八三條之一第六項鎖定規則有關扶具檢測登錄設備申請程序或證明之規定者由行政機關處扶具所有人或使用人薪台幣六百元以上六千元以下罰還扶具所有人並應完成改善後時的使用維持富奎等提案第九十九條修斷中段第八九條之三與同性條文"},{"start":5414.261,"end":5426.574,"text":"行政院提案第100條第三項手續於第8條之後增加第8條之一第10條之一第11條之一第4項中斷於第89條後增加第89條之一與同性情條文"},{"start":5427.659,"end":5447.098,"text":"委員王美惠等 委員李坤澄等委員吳麗華等 委員黃潔等委員吳佩儀等 委員林楚英等委員沈伯陽等 委員蔡育儀等委員郭育晴等 委員陳素月等委員陳秀寶等 委員陳廷飛等委員張雅玲等 委員邱振鈞等委員何信淳等 委員羅美玲等委員李博義等 委員張侯璐等委員侯孟凱等 軍統行政院提案委員徐富奎等提案"},{"start":5447.799,"end":5467.783,"text":"第二項中段修正第八九條第一項第二項第四項第八九條之一第一項第八九條之二第八九條之三第三項第四項第九十條第一項第三項第九十條第一項第九十二條第二項第三項第九三條第一項第九十四條第一項第九十七條第二項第三項第九八條第一項第三項前段至第八條之三八十"},{"start":5469.198,"end":5480.296,"text":"第十條 第十條之一 第十一條第一項 第二項 第十一條之一 第二三條之第三項 第二十八條之三 第三十條之一 第三十四條第二項 第三十七條 第三十七條之一 第五十二條"},{"start":5480.885,"end":5504.037,"text":"第一項第三項第五十二條之一第五十七條第五十九條第三項第四項中斷第八十九條至第八十九號之二八十九號之三第三項第四項九十條第一項至第三項九十一條第一項九十二條第二項第三項九十三條第二項九十七條第一項第三項第九十八條第一項與同現行條文委員蔡啟昌等二十二人提案手續修正傳"},{"start":5504.817,"end":5518.207,"text":"第101條傳播技術手具修正傳播技術與管理事項涉及國際事務者與同現行條文委員徐富奎等16人提案手具修正傳播技術與管理事項涉及國際事務者中段修正所定標準與同現行條文"},{"start":5519.417,"end":5534.507,"text":"委員許富奎等提案第101條第5項修正海事行政調查之範圍的著免之適用情形調查程序處分建議文書格式及其他應遵行事項之規則由主管機關定之第6項前段修正行政機關問辦理海事評議的設置海事評議小組其主審評議方式與同現行條文"},{"start":5538.47,"end":5562.236,"text":"委員蔡錫昌等提案新增第101條之二非中華民國及傳播違法違反本法而處罰患者未繳納或未提供擔保前行政機關得禁止該傳播入出港委員市富奎等提案第102條增訂第二項中華民國某院某院某日修正公佈之第71條之一及第72條第5項之實行日期有行政院定制宣讀完畢"},{"start":5568.207,"end":5580.363,"text":"條文均已宣讀完畢現在就個案彙整之條文對照表主案進行協商處理我們現在就到前面來做處理"},{"start":5611.233,"end":5639.193,"text":"我們現在要進行協商處理 首先要進行的是祭司法的部分我們要繼續並案審查祭司法第11條條文的修正草案要繼續來進行主條討論大概有兩案 少數的條文修正來第11條第11條部分委員有沒有意見"},{"start":5644.813,"end":5648.055,"text":"來請相關單位來做說明有沒有意見處理的情形謝謝召委有關於計資法第11條工程會這邊建議是不是能夠從鄰居縣委員等21人提案的條文來進行修正來說明一下"},{"start":5670.669,"end":5688.495,"text":"那這個部分其實各委員所提案的版本那也跟行政院那個報修正草案的那個內容是相近的那不過在林俊憲委員這個版本裡面因為我們有增訂了一個相當於參照那個所謂的那個一些"},{"start":5689.515,"end":5714.503,"text":"消費者的債務清理條例所訂定的成立清理債務者在他還回復其債信及財產行為能力前其實是類似受破產宣告確定商會賦權有一些債信不良跟財產行為能力受限制的情形所以我們在這邊也在第11條的第一項第三款整列為不發給職業執照的要件這是針對第11條的修正的一個建議"},{"start":5721.942,"end":5744.387,"text":"工程會的建議是按照林俊憲委員的提案來做修正通過在場各位委員有沒有意見沒有的話我們就按照林俊憲委員的提案建議依照林俊憲委員等21人提案的條文通過我們現在處理第42條"},{"start":5746.092,"end":5751.805,"text":"第四十二條在座委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話來請工程會來做說明"},{"start":5754.504,"end":5778.025,"text":"第42條的修正的部分最主要是我們工程會是同意各委員提案修正的方向但是考慮到現行的利害關係人他可以直接來報請懲戒的機制常常是會出現被利用成為解決私權爭議手段的可能或作為來影響調解或訴訟程序的手段"},{"start":5778.886,"end":5793.654,"text":"那在這邊林俊杰委員這邊的等21年的提案有參考到會計司法的第63條以及建築司法的第50條規定刪除利害關係的得職階交付懲戒的規定那但是"},{"start":5794.734,"end":5821.356,"text":"是另外增訂利害關係人如果發現祭司有違私的情勢時候得列舉事實提出證據報警目的事業主管機關直轄市縣市主管機關或者是祭司所屬的祭司工會審核後來轉送祭司懲戒委員會來處理的規定是相對比較周妥一點那因此那個共同建議是第42條建議的修正的條文是不是能夠"},{"start":5824.138,"end":5841.152,"text":"依照那個林俊憲委員等21人提案的條文來進行修正 以上報告好 再說各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就依照委員林俊憲等21人提案的條文通過"},{"start":5848.499,"end":5860.105,"text":"那我們現在要繼續邊岸審查電信管理法第72條條文修正草案好現在請工程會的同仁可以先行離開我們繼續處理其他的單位的條文那我們繼續要進行主條討論電信管理法"},{"start":5873.454,"end":5884.253,"text":"電信管理法也是兩條72條跟72條之二在座的各位委員有沒有意見徐富奎委員"},{"start":5887.781,"end":5912.399,"text":"謝謝召委我想我們會提出這樣的一個修法是因為為了有效嚇阻破壞我國通訊電纜的不法行為那尤其我們目前在14條的國際海難裡面有三條因為障礙事故待修復那目前兩條還在寫評估當中我想我們國人除了關心我們這個電纜修復的進度之外那更重要未來如何防範於未然"},{"start":5912.959,"end":5927.74,"text":"尤其是一些面對我們對岸的一些壓力然後一些遏止的一個破壞行為我想我們應該做一個比較嚴正的一個修法的態度好 謝謝好 在座委員還有沒有意見針對電信管理法第72條"},{"start":5931.078,"end":5957.738,"text":"好那這個部分我們就按照行政院的提案通過在座各位有沒有意見好沒有意見我們按照行政院的這個提案的版本通過好現在進行第72條之二在座各位委員有沒有意見好請相關單位來做說明"},{"start":5960.351,"end":5987.464,"text":"各位委員其實要這委員立法意思是在有關中華民國境外領域的犯罪希望能夠適用之但是根據現在國際法的相關規定針對域外的部分有所爭議同時在法律上是否賦予非傳奇國在公海上逮捕的跟搜查的權利另外在海巡單位執法上是不是有困難都要一併的考量所以建議本條不修正以上報告"},{"start":5988.191,"end":5994.554,"text":"好在座各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見的話我們不以修正為此現行條文我們要繼續審查七項法第21條之一的條文修正草案繼續進行主條討論"},{"start":6015.579,"end":6031.091,"text":"第72條我們再來做補充說明第72條之二不予增訂維持現行條文以上"},{"start":6034.505,"end":6059.625,"text":"我們針對七項法第21條之一的條文來做修正的草案要進行相關的討論總共有六條我們現在處理第一條在座委員有沒有意見來 請相關單位說明好的署長是"},{"start":6062.199,"end":6084.162,"text":"有關於氣象法第21條部分的話就第21條之一主要是氣象設施受到的破壞的情況這一次我們增列了過失刑犯處罰的範圍這個條文在行政院基本上有做一些跨部會的共同討論在修法的原則跟模式跟架構"},{"start":6084.983,"end":6106.352,"text":"以及定義方面我們希望在確保各部會的管理法規的一致性懇請各位委員支持本部所提的修正案剛剛還有其他的案子是其實包含了氣象法的有關委員所提到的署長一條一條來我們先處理第一條"},{"start":6110.354,"end":6139.754,"text":"第一条气象署的建议是不予修订是不是对目前在第一条在新增的委员提议说配合中华民国119年温室气体净零排放的目标建立永续发展的气象资讯的基础那就目前来看的话气候变迁因应法已经有相对的规范了好我们只针对第一条一条一条主条的来做讨论"},{"start":6140.154,"end":6162.641,"text":"其他委員有沒有意見沒有的話我們就不以修正維持現行條文現在進行第二條來 各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話來氣象署來做說明好的在全球暖化氣候變遷的極端高溫頻率逐漸的增加對於高溫這個議題包含影響的範圍非常的大"},{"start":6163.341,"end":6190.066,"text":"包含勞工還有國民健康等等的各個領域所以氣象署目前已經在草案中有納入高溫的這個在災害性天氣的範圍裡面的好 那氣象署的這個想法是不予修訂嗎目前我們的草案在目前正在預告的進行當中所以在座委員有沒有意見"},{"start":6192.665,"end":6220.158,"text":"好沒有意見的話我們不以修正維持現行條文好現在針對氣象法第四條之一來再說各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見的話來氣象署做說明好的配合國家近年排放的政策的相關作為呢在氣候變遷法裡面已經有相當的規範了所以呢我們尊重委員會綜合審查的結果"},{"start":6223.571,"end":6244.517,"text":"沒有啦 你們的看法是什麼啦我們的看法這一部分已經是在肌肉變形法裡面有規範的建立不予修正那你的觀點立場要明確嘛我們再來請教在場各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就不予增訂"},{"start":6247.236,"end":6263.432,"text":"好那有關於第四條之二我還沒講啦署長你不要緊張我們現在進行第四條之二來請問在場各位委員有沒有意見好沒有的話來請署長做說明"},{"start":6266.123,"end":6281.155,"text":"這一條策略在氣候變遷法裡面已經有相對的規範了所以我們建議不以爭辯好謝謝署長在場各位委員有沒有意見不以爭定有沒有意見沒有的話我們不以爭定"},{"start":6286.164,"end":6309.463,"text":"我們現在進行第四條之三在座各位委員請對照相關的條文第四條之三有沒有意見沒有意見的話請署長來做說明好的 濟江法對外提供的資料也包含了在有關衛福部部分有關於兒少健康危害是屬於衛福部的主管機關的專業服務裡面專業範圍裡面"},{"start":6313.306,"end":6334.566,"text":"其實在建立氣候風險的指引跟氣象法的目的是有所不一樣的在兒少部分所以我們建議不以爭定謝謝署長的說明在座各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就不以爭定第21條之一在座各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":6336.514,"end":6358.702,"text":"這個行政院也有提案來請署長說明各位委員所提的修正的相關的內容均與行政院版本的草案內容精神大致是相同的所以懇請委員支持本部所提的行政院的修正好那我們就依照行政院的提案通過好"},{"start":6371.01,"end":6397.922,"text":"接下來我們要並按審查三港法第15條及第65條之四條文的修正草案我們要進行主條討論有兩條的條文分別是第15條及第65條之四請委員對照相關的條文請問在座委員針對三港法第15條有沒有意見"},{"start":6399.182,"end":6424.142,"text":"沒有意見的話來請葉協榮局長來做說明是 謝謝趙偉 謝謝各位委員那跟委員會報告第四五條是為了避免這個船舶長期滯留上港那行政院提出這個本次修正的版本得要求這個有妨礙船席跟調度港區安全得要求船舶上個月內離港或指定這個移泊"},{"start":6424.782,"end":6448.395,"text":"那針對委員的這個23個提案那經過除了有16位委員提案跟行政院版本一致之外那其他相關委員提案經過我們檢視相關委員提案的文字雖然跟行政院版本略有差異但是文藝上跟行政院版本精神一致建議維持行政院提案版本以上報告"},{"start":6448.815,"end":6458.962,"text":"好在座各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就依照行政院的提案通過那蘇衛部林部長你們應該可以先行離開了好我們現在進行第65條之四在座各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":6474.347,"end":6478.593,"text":"來啦 從前面出去啦就在主席台前面這樣"},{"start":6491.877,"end":6517.367,"text":"來在座委員沒有意見要做補充的話來請葉局長做說明是謝謝召委 報告委員會那第65條制是針對未依第15條限期離港那或是沒有依照這個60條之一留置的外國商船未依其限內補正相關的正當理由或相關的船舶證書等文件"},{"start":6517.927,"end":6543.292,"text":"那香港局或指定機關的默入之那針對行政院提案的這個版本呢那我們精簡是委員提案的這個版本除了藉由這個王美惠等16位委員跟行政院提案版本內容一致之外其他委員提案版本雖然文字上跟行政院版本略有差異但是文藝上跟精神上"},{"start":6544.193,"end":6561.894,"text":"跟行政院版本我們經過詳細的檢視是跟行政院版本一致那是不是請委員可以支持維持行政院版本以上報告在座委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就第65條這是依照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":6567.222,"end":6586.456,"text":"我們現在要繼續邊岸審查傳播法部分條文的修正草案總共要處理54條來這個部分請委員對照傳播法條文的修正草案來對照相關的條文我們現在處理第一條"},{"start":6588.03,"end":6608.806,"text":"來 第一條 在座各位委員有沒有要做補充說明沒有的話來 請葉局長做說明謝謝召委 跟各位委員報告第八條之一 行政院提案版本第八條之一的部分藉由李昆承等所有委員跟行政院版本一致"},{"start":6609.506,"end":6636.412,"text":"那其他委員的提案有關蘇巧惠委員的部分有關增訂第8條的部分已經跟蘇委員報告因為林海林階區法已經有相關明確的規範那建議不在本法重複來規範那已經獲得蘇委員的一個這個同意那其他的部分 葉局長我現在在講第一條你多一下我們現在在講第一條"},{"start":6639.181,"end":6640.863,"text":"傳播法的第一條對不對是 對不起 聽說先不可以招惹娘媽做抱歉抱歉抱招惹跟各位委員那第一條是蔡其昌委員所提案的這個部分"},{"start":6659.742,"end":6680.598,"text":"那跟 稍微跟委員會報告呢 那本次委員的提案呢除了蔡協商委員之外 另外還有徐富奎委員針對行政 本次行政提案版本非屬這個沒有涉及海欄安全保護的這個條文呢 也有提出相關的條文"},{"start":6681.118,"end":6703.598,"text":"那這個部分我們有特別跟徐委員跟蔡委員來特別做報告因為本次行政院的修法是為強化我國海欄的防護進行修正那其他無涉及海欄安全條文的部分因為尚需這個審慎的研議那是不是可以先以行政院提案版本的條文來進行審議"},{"start":6704.799,"end":6732.758,"text":"其餘的條文暫不予審議那跟徐委員還有蔡委員報告都獲得兩位委員的支持那是不是建議委員會能夠針對行政提案的這個七條的條文來進行審議 以上報告我們現在是針對第一條 第一條航港局的立場就是不予修正嘛 是不是建議不予修正好 在座委員有沒有意見來 徐屋奎委員"},{"start":6735.259,"end":6761.819,"text":"謝謝張委員我想我們都支持這個交通部的一個修法的一個方向那尤其是這個海嵐部分確實是應該是要優先處理但後續我想針對這個遊艇觀光離岸風電跟納管扶具的部分我想這未來我們也期待要趕快去處理尤其這個純佛法7年未修那如果這次不修正我想未來我們要等了很久的時間那我想後續的部分我們都會來配合那也期待我們交通部跟航港局能夠盡快來處理好謝謝"},{"start":6770.478,"end":6794.671,"text":"那徐屋葵委員如果你同意的話那你相關的版本就不用討論了好我們現在針對重播法的第一條不以修正維持現行條文現在進行第三條第三條徐屋葵委員第三條第八條"},{"start":6800.543,"end":6814.417,"text":"好我們現在進行第8條徐喬惠等18人提案在座委員有沒有意見請各位委員查看相關的對照條文第8條傳播法第8條"},{"start":6815.678,"end":6832.094,"text":"好 請葉局長做說明是 謝謝趙偉跟 趙偉跟各位委員報告那蘇委員的提案是在第8條建議新增第二項第三項有關無害通過認定的相關管理的條文那這個部分因為"},{"start":6833.115,"end":6862.415,"text":"我考量到這個中華民國領海及臨界區法針對無害通過已經有相關明確的規範那建議無序在本法另行訂定那也跟署委員辦公室這邊報告那也獲得委員這邊的同意支持維持行政院的版本那不予增訂 以上報告那在這各位委員沒意見沒有意見的話我們第8條不予修正維持現行條文現在進行第8條之一"},{"start":6864.018,"end":6865.301,"text":"再說各位委員來 羅秉林委員"},{"start":6868.826,"end":6894.136,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席的第八條之一基本上跟院版是差不多只是我在文字段落有做了一個調整這是立法技術的一個調整因為我看到就是第八條之一的第一項裡面有下列船舶那突然間多了一個除公務船舶與海上執法我們把這個部分我把這一段拉到這個第八條之一的第二項"},{"start":6895.902,"end":6922.056,"text":"我不曉得大家可以來做一個參考因為我覺得這文字的這個落在這裡好像怪怪我們想說下列傳播如果說因於航行或這個苗博時維持該設備正常運作直接這樣子會不會比較順一點然後把這個除公務傳播與海上執法或航行這個除了這個部分我們放在第二項會不會比較順"},{"start":6925.957,"end":6946.378,"text":"大家可以討論看看我們請行港局葉局長來做說明報告召委謝謝羅委員這邊的提案跟羅委員報告夏烈傳播逗號要含括下面的"},{"start":6949.3,"end":6974.013,"text":"這個傳播的這個有關AIS的這個規範的事項那這個在行政院各部會討論的時候那把下列傳播這個部分放在第一項的這個序文的前段是認為說這樣子對於整個規範所有傳播的這個範圍的這個明確性可以更清楚而且更完整"},{"start":6974.873,"end":7001.269,"text":"那這個部分是經過我想這個我們這個林政務委員多次的會議的討論那也經過這個法務部相關單位的檢視那感謝委員提案是不是因為這個在文言上應該是是相一致的那是不是懇請委員可以支持行政院的版本林俊憲委員"},{"start":7004.162,"end":7012.717,"text":"是 請教交通部這裡這個AIS你所謂的因不可預期的海礦或事故導致故障"},{"start":7013.959,"end":7034.015,"text":"那這種狀況會不會成為就是說他為了逃避他定位的一個藉口或像這種情況下我們是不是他說你要立即通報說我這個AS壞掉了那是不是應該要定一個更明確的有沒有更明確的細則比如說他多久以內應該要就立刻要明確的告訴我們"},{"start":7034.696,"end":7061.504,"text":"因為它如果AIS一故障我們馬上就失去它的位置照理講是這樣子有沒有規定它多久以內就必須要向我們通報來 局長說明謝謝委員的提案各位委員報告 航空局設有海事中心我們對於我們臨海內甚至在臨界區範圍內的船舶的AIS都能夠及時的掌握"},{"start":7062.404,"end":7085.49,"text":"那這個部分我們可以來追溯這個這個傳播他關閉IS的這個軌跡那如果海巡這邊查獲有不法傳播我們都可以及時的來透過這個軌跡的追溯然後來確認他是不是有這個違規沒有開啟IS的一個狀況"},{"start":7086.77,"end":7109.438,"text":"那這個部分現在行政院版本雖然沒有這個要求這個多久要來做通報但是這邊原來的文字已經有應急也就是馬上要向行政機關通報的這個義務那我們也會要求除了要這個他沒有立即通報後面都有相關的罰則之外呢"},{"start":7109.938,"end":7127.601,"text":"那我們也會要求他如果有故障的情形那要按時的跟我們通報船舶的船位來確保這個我們對於船舶位置的一個掌握那也就是說我們現在的這個智慧航岸的設備呢是能夠有效的掌握這個船舶的位置"},{"start":7128.101,"end":7154.506,"text":"那因為現行這個行政院版本所提的這個文字呢已經有要求這個故障的AIS故障的情形要立即向行政機關通報那柯區委員是不是可以暫時以我們行政院版本來通過那未來如果有訂定細部的這個規定的一個需要我們可以用行政規則等方式再來進一步來做要求以上報告"},{"start":7155.27,"end":7172.926,"text":"好謝謝我先來林俊憲委員我同意啦那針對葉局長的說明羅秉林委員有沒有接受好那我們第8條之一就依照行政院的提案通過我們現在要進行"},{"start":7181.88,"end":7209.388,"text":"委員徐富奎等16人提案的第8條之一第8條之一不予增訂因為徐委員剛才已經接受相關的一個說法第8條之二也是不予增訂第8條之一不予增訂第8條之二也不予增訂我們現在要進行第10條"},{"start":7211.181,"end":7219.223,"text":"也是不以修正為此現行條文好我們現在進行第10條之一在座各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":7222.679,"end":7249.052,"text":"好 請葉局長做說明好 謝謝昭偉跟委員會報告那跟委員會報告第十條之一是要求這個外籍船舶在我國領海內的這個航行或毛泊的時候他的船身必須要備據這個正確船名還有這個國際海事組織的這個正確的編號標誌那而且不得損壞隱匿或這個圖改"},{"start":7251.753,"end":7278.596,"text":"那這個就是為了要有效的嚇止這個所謂的商務船舶在我國海域滯留會有不當侵擾的這個行為那本條呢這個藉由王美輝委員等15位委員提案的內容跟行政版本一致那至於其他委員的提案呢除了徐富奎委員蔡其昌委員所提嚴禁水案的部分"},{"start":7279.176,"end":7301.314,"text":"那這個部分跟還有吳佩玉委員 沈伯陽委員所提禁止水域這個版本跟行政版本略有差異那經過我們檢視 我們是依照兩岸條例的用語衛律法律的用語一致 建議維持行政版本那其他委員的提案非常感謝龍委員 等等委員的提案"},{"start":7302.495,"end":7318.467,"text":"經過我們詳細的這個檢視跟比對委員提案跟行政院版本的差異基本上精神是一致的所以我們是不是建議能夠維持行政院的版本另外一個考量是"},{"start":7319.908,"end":7347.971,"text":"為了確保這個法律明確性的原則那因為行政版本呢對於應該要規範的事項都有明確的一個列舉所以為確保明確性的原則那其次考量這個各委員的提案文藝與行政版本精神跟這個文藝是一致的那建議是不是肯定委員能夠支持維持行政版本以上報告好來林進憲委員"},{"start":7349.412,"end":7367.799,"text":"這個必須要有明確的標誌這個是國際公約嘛是這個船跟車子一樣嘛我們車子有車牌你船一定要有一個標誌是那通常會進入我們所管制海域裡面沒有標誌的通常都是中國漁船或者是應該是有不明企圖者嘛是"},{"start":7368.739,"end":7394.904,"text":"那你那你特別有具名說如果海上人命公國際公約規定無需具備者是什麼狀況下會有無需具備者這個總頓這個這個SOLAS規定那有一定的這個規模以上的這個這個船舶呢是不需要這個申請這個國際海事組織的船舶編號"},{"start":7397.984,"end":7424.192,"text":"那這個是在所謂的海上人民公約SOLARS公約裡面去特別規範的那這個基本上就是一些小船很小的這個船舶才有可以豁免這個這個我們叫email number還是這個組織船舶編號的這個標誌的一個義務否則其他船舶都是需要來標誌的"},{"start":7429.048,"end":7430.034,"text":"來 請問劉記憲委員還沒有意見"},{"start":7434.605,"end":7462.722,"text":"我是沒有意見只是好奇後面是要很小的船是多小應該是100吋以下國際航線100吋以下那應該有一個標準對 國際航線100吋以下如果我們發現有違規沒有標示的我們通常怎麼處理違規沒有標示我們後面有驅離還是查扣包委員我們在89條之一就有明確的法則好 我來參考一下好 張總委員有沒有意見"},{"start":7464.023,"end":7489.521,"text":"沒有意見的話 我們就依照行政院的提案通過七項署 呂署長如果你沒有相關的要繼續了解川普法相關的規定可以先行離開處理公務好 我們現在第十一條徐屋奎委員的提案我們第十一條不予修正 為此現行條文"},{"start":7492.748,"end":7494.758,"text":"我们现在进行第11条之一"},{"start":7497.057,"end":7521.74,"text":"來 在座委員有沒有意見好 請葉局長說明好 謝謝召委包括委員會第11條之一是針對要求依照國際公約的規定要求總墩150以上的外籍船舶在我國領海水域應該要備據航海日誌針對航海日誌的這個應記載的事項也有明確試款的一個規範"},{"start":7523.101,"end":7549.593,"text":"那本條這個藉由網美會委員等16位委員提案是跟行政版本的內容完全一致那另外有關黃婕委員還有郭益勤委員等委員的提案那經過我們檢視這個文藝上跟行政版本一致那有關郭委員的提案的部分那這邊針對"},{"start":7551.934,"end":7568.887,"text":"航海日誌應該要記載事項跟行政版本略有差異那這邊要特別跟委員報告就是因為這個國際公約所謂的這個海上人民安全公約的規定針對航海日誌的應該要記載事項是有明確的規定那"},{"start":7570.628,"end":7595.868,"text":"現在我們行政院提案的版本所列的四款的這個要項呢就是依照國際公約來律定的所以未符合國際公約的規定呢懇請委員能夠支持維持行政院版本 以上報告來在座各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們第11條之一就依照行政院的提案通過那我們現在處理第23條"},{"start":7599.292,"end":7617.074,"text":"徐物魁委員就同意不予修正不予修正我們就維持現行的條文第26條也是徐物魁委員的提案他也同意不予修正我們第26條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7618.135,"end":7635.166,"text":"第27條也是徐烏奎委員的提案他也同意不予修正第27條不予修正維持現行條文第28條也是徐烏奎委員等16人提案他也同意不予修正第28條我們不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7636.994,"end":7653.926,"text":"第28條之一也是徐屋葵委員的提案同意不予修正我們第28條之一不予修正維持現行條文第28條之二徐屋葵委員同意不予修正所以第28條之二我們不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7654.983,"end":7674.719,"text":"第28條之三徐烏奎委員同意不予修正所以第28條之三不予修正維持現行條文第37條之一徐烏奎委員的等16人提案徐烏奎委員同意不予增訂那第30條之一我們不予增訂"},{"start":7678.062,"end":7690.253,"text":"第37條之一不予增訂我們現在處理第52條之一也是徐物魁等16人提案徐委員同意不予增訂第52條之一不予增訂第57條"},{"start":7699.252,"end":7719.947,"text":"委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正第57條不予修正維持現行條文第59條徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文第59條我們做不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7721.092,"end":7736.337,"text":"第60條徐物魁委員等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正第60條不予修正維持現行條文第61條委員徐物魁提案"},{"start":7738.698,"end":7751.485,"text":"他同意不予修正所以第61條不予修正維持現行條文第62條委員徐無愧等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正我們第62條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7758.382,"end":7787.07,"text":"我們現在出第65條徐富奎委員等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正第65條不予修正維持現行條文第66條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文所以我們第66條不予修正維持現行條文第70條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":7788.294,"end":7812.412,"text":"我們第70條不予修正維持現行條文第71條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文第71條不予修正維持現行條文第71條之一委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予增訂那我們第71條之一不予增訂"},{"start":7818.82,"end":7840.414,"text":"我們現在處理第72條請各位委員參照相關的條文第72條各位委員有沒有要做補充說明沒有的話請葉局長做說明好謝謝召委報告委員會第72條是規範自用遊艇人需適用這個本次修正的第89條之一罰則的規定那"},{"start":7844.236,"end":7862.27,"text":"有關委員提案 既有王美惠委員等22位委員的提案所提的這個提案的內容條文都跟行政版本一致那僅有徐富奎委員提案的部分第一到三項有關強化海南"},{"start":7863.51,"end":7890.068,"text":"這個防護的部分將這個自用遊艇要適用第89條之一的這個這個概念是跟行政版本一致至於徐委員提案第四第五項的內容因為無涉海南安全的一個條文那先前有跟委員報告同意暫不予審議那因此眾上建議維持行政版本 懇請各位委員支持"},{"start":7891.148,"end":7906.898,"text":"好各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就依照行政院的提案通過好各位委員我們先休息十分鐘等一下繼續相關的審查"},{"start":8516.983,"end":8518.29,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們現在要處理"},{"start":8524.248,"end":8549.311,"text":"處理第73條也是委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文我們現在正式的說明第73條不予修正維持現行條文第76條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐富奎委員同意不予修正我們第76條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":8550.748,"end":8572.607,"text":"第78條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正第78條不予修正維持現行條文第81條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正第81條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":8577.287,"end":8602.748,"text":"我們現在要處理第82條請各位委員參照相關的條文第82條各位委員有沒有意見沒有的話請葉局長來做說明是清楚的說明是謝謝召委那報告委員會跟各位委員那第82條是規範小船也就總段20以下的船舶呢"},{"start":8604.089,"end":8625.384,"text":"也必須要適用本次修正的第89條之一的法則那本次委員提案藉由王美輝委員等19位委員提案所提的提案的內容條文跟行政院版本完全一致那其餘委員只有徐副委員提案與"},{"start":8626.625,"end":8646.093,"text":"與行政版本雖略有差異但是徐委員所提版本的第一項有關小船試用第89條之一罰則的部分跟行政版本的精神是一致的至於徐委員提案第三項有關提案文字的部分因為沒有涉及到海南安全的相關的條文"},{"start":8648.034,"end":8669.571,"text":"已經有跟學委員報告因為未涉及海嵐安全原則上不在本次行政院提案的修法範疇內會委員同意支持行政院版本因此第82條部分 懇請委員支持維持行政院版本 以上報告請問在座委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8670.572,"end":8691.554,"text":"沒有意見的話 我們第82條就依照行政院提案通過我們現在進行第8章之一 這是有關於章民委員徐烏奎等16人提案 徐委員同意不予增訂所以第8章之一不予增訂我們現在處理第83條之一"},{"start":8694.11,"end":8712.603,"text":"第83條之一委員徐物魁等16人提案徐委員同意不予增訂第83條之一不予增訂我們現在處理第89條第89條"},{"start":8725.765,"end":8751.018,"text":"好跟各位委員做說明第89條有委員徐富奎等16人提案另外有委員蘇巧惠等18人提案徐富奎委員同意不予修正其他的委員針對這個89條有沒有其他的意見因為還有蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":8756.905,"end":8778.092,"text":"來 蔡體昌委員好 89條之一 這個主席89條 89條看得出來兩位感情很好第89條那各位委員沒有意見的話我們就不予修正 維持現行條文"},{"start":8785.922,"end":8808.246,"text":"好我們現在要進行蔡委員關心的第89條之一來請蔡委員好謝謝主席這個前面的條文本席沒有太多意見所以就按照剛剛主席宣告的都主條來通過那89條之一主要是罰則的部分"},{"start":8809.158,"end":8819.784,"text":"那本席比較關心的是因為89號之一涉及我們對於這AIS裝置在20噸以下那這20噸以下呢目前我們的"},{"start":8820.874,"end":8838.669,"text":"航港局有編列預算在進行補助那漁船的部分漁業署也有編列預算在補助所以呢必須有罰則本席這個是沒有意見我們是同意的只是說我們政府一方面編列預算在補助那這補助預算是實施到明年"},{"start":8839.554,"end":8854.319,"text":"所以我也在這裡也請航港局做一個說明是不是這個罰則要罰但那個實施的時間是不是應該搭配我們在政策上協助這些漁民或者船舶的擁有者來加裝這些設備那這個時間點應該罰則實施的時間應該跟補助的時間要有一個吻合"},{"start":8862.603,"end":8890.498,"text":"不然你現在通過你就隨便發他就要接受政府補助你錢都還沒補助他就罰款了所以我是覺得這個看起來有點不大合理所以我想請局長說明一下局長來做補充現在請林進憲委員謝謝主席還有許智傑委員我待會要先請那個航空局說明一下你這個罰則你現在處罰的對象是你說有時候依情節輕重處罰所有人或者船長"},{"start":8891.639,"end":8913.403,"text":"或者遊艇駕駛或小船駕駛那你到底要罰誰第一個你看起來都可以嘛那如果是不同人那所有人跟駕駛又不同人那你處罰的對象你是怎麼去裁定再來在我們一般的罰則大概行政財量權很少這麼大的你從3萬到1000萬"},{"start":8917.78,"end":8929.985,"text":"那你依他的情節的話那你這樣的這麼大財量權你內部有更進一步的財閥的準則嗎你3萬也罰 1000萬也罰這個部分也請行政局說明一下好 現在請許智傑委員"},{"start":8939.426,"end":8961.641,"text":"剛剛其昌委員提到的就是說這個罰則的時間那基本上我也比較贊成其昌委員講的說他要一致啦要不然很多人民有可能會你現在補助還沒來補助還沒來你就先罰有可能他們的那個傳達的法令規定他不清楚那至於說要罰誰我是認為至少船長要罰啦"},{"start":8963.63,"end":8981.005,"text":"因為船長就是這一艘船的負責人嘛那不管誰駕駛你至少船長要負擔這艘船的所有的責任這樣子才會原有的在有主不然他找個替其他人然後就偷渡這樣子也不好所以我是認為這個船長至少要罰謝謝"},{"start":8984.067,"end":9007.287,"text":"好 請問其他委員有沒有要做補充的來 請葉局長針對蔡其昌委員 林俊憲委員 許智傑委員來提出說明好 謝謝委員的這個吹詢那報告召委跟各位委員那首先針對蔡其昌委員的這個吹詢那跟委員報告"},{"start":9008.428,"end":9024.141,"text":"那本次行政院修法的這個條文呢第八條之一針對AIS的這個客語的一個責任在第一項的第一款是依本法規定應裝設AIS的中華民國傳播"},{"start":9026.023,"end":9046.165,"text":"特別跟委員報告這一點最主要是依照現行的船舶法總動20以下的自用小船或遊艇目前是不需要裝設AIS目前正進行相關執法規的修正未來會要求20噸以下的自用小船跟遊艇也必須要裝設"},{"start":9047.626,"end":9076.904,"text":"那同步在進行剛剛委員已經說明到的補助的一個專案那我們補助的期限是到明年的6月預計將這個4609艘的小船都要補助裝設完畢那我們這個裁罰的這個時間點呢在我們的執法規 辦法裡面會去明訂會有一條是施行的這個時間由主管機關另行公告之"},{"start":9077.424,"end":9100.557,"text":"也就是符合委員剛剛提醒的這個原則就是補助的這個期限一定要在這個補助這個傳播所有人都能夠這個有足夠的時間完成這個補助跟裝設之後才來開始採訪所以這個部分我們會遵照委員這邊提示的這個原則"},{"start":9101.397,"end":9124.492,"text":"那預估一個合理的時間再開始採訪至於本法的修正這個是針對現行傳播法本來就應該要裝飾AIS的部分來予以採訪所以是文雲催巡的那個小船的部分那部分我們也會另外處理那跟這次修正的條文是沒有漢格這個是跟蔡委員報告"},{"start":9126.733,"end":9149.683,"text":"另外林俊憲委 許志傑委員林委員還有徐委員報告第一個我們依照傳播法的裁罰的原則基本上是優先裁罰傳播所有人但是另外行為人的部分船長跟駕駛的部分"},{"start":9150.603,"end":9170.497,"text":"那這個部分如果有明顯的違反的事項我們也是會予以裁罰那林委員特別垂詢到這個量罰的基準從三萬到一千萬這個差距很大那特別跟林委員報告"},{"start":9172.899,"end":9197.999,"text":"1000萬的這個上限最主要要強力的嚇止這些所謂的商務船舶這種危害我們這個海浪安全的這種船舶要給他一個很高的一個裁判的額度來嚇止他不可以這個有這種侵擾的這個行為的發生那怎麼樣來有秩序那有規則的這個裁量呢"},{"start":9198.779,"end":9227.157,"text":"後續跟委員報告後續我們會制定裁罰的一個基準表這個會依照這個行政程序法的規定那也會透過公告的一個程序讓這個民眾知悉什麼樣的一個情節跟樣態是要裁罰到最高的一個法則那什麼樣樣態他比如說是並非是故意那可能是重新來量法這個我們會後續會有明確的裁罰基準表"},{"start":9227.997,"end":9256.757,"text":"來公告周知讓那個民眾來遵循以上報告好 請問在座委員針對葉局長的說明有沒有意見或者是補充說明那好 謝謝那第80條之一我們就按照行政院對啊 第89條之一啊啊89主席剛剛口齒不清說八十"},{"start":9259.349,"end":9280.782,"text":"好 我們針對第89條之一我們就依照行政院的提案通過現在針對委員徐烏奎等16人提案第89條之一徐委員同意不予增訂那我們第89條之一徐委員的提案就不予增訂第89條之三"},{"start":9284.693,"end":9305.423,"text":"第89條之三徐委員等16人提案徐委員同意不予增訂所以第89條之三不予增訂第90條委員徐烏奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正所以第90條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":9306.303,"end":9327.948,"text":"第91條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正所以第91條不予修正維持現行條文第92條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正那第92條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":9329.284,"end":9336.237,"text":"第95條委員徐副會長16人提案徐委員同意不予修正為此現行條文第95條"},{"start":9338.57,"end":9365.349,"text":"做一下處理不予修正維持現行條文第97條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正所以第97條不予修正維持現行條文第98條委員徐富奎等16人提案徐委員同意不予修正維持現行條文第98條不予修正維持現行條文第98條之一委員徐富奎等16人提案"},{"start":9366.189,"end":9394.074,"text":"那徐委員同意不予增訂那第98條之一不予增訂我們現在要處理第99條也是委員徐富奎等16人提案那徐委員同意不予修正第99條不予修正維持現行條文來第100條各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":9397.742,"end":9422.354,"text":"好來請葉局長做說明是謝謝召委包括委員會跟各位委員那第100條是針對船舶租用人必須要准用本次修正的第8條之一第10條之一第11條之一相關的這個責任跟義務同時也必須要遵守本次新增的第89條之一的法則那因此增訂相關條文"},{"start":9423.254,"end":9438.923,"text":"那委員的提案 既有王美惠等19位委員的提案的這個內容呢條文的內容與行政院版本完全一致那另外徐富奎委員所提的提案有關裁罰的部分"},{"start":9441.644,"end":9456.736,"text":"這個不涉及本次修法的這個海嵐防護的相關的內容那也跟學委員有報告是不是建議暫不予審議以行政提案版本條文來進行審議那獲委員的一個同意"},{"start":9457.196,"end":9475.953,"text":"那重上本次的本條的這個修正呢各位委員的提案除徐委員提案有特別跟徐委員報告之外其他委員的提案都跟行政院版本一致那建請 懇請委員同意支持維持行政院提案版本以上報告各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":9477.575,"end":9500.055,"text":"沒有意見的話我們就第100條依照行政院的提案通過101條分別是蔡其昌委員等22人提案委員徐富奎等16人提案這個部分徐富奎委員同意不予修正請問其他各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":9501.536,"end":9526.383,"text":"沒有意見的話第101條不予修正維持現行條文第101條之一徐富奎委員等16人提案徐富奎同意不予修正第101條之一我們不予修正維持現行條文101條之後委員蔡吉昌等22人提案這個部分請問在座委員有沒有意見"},{"start":9529.215,"end":9552.88,"text":"好 那請葉局長做說明是 謝謝趙偉 跟趙偉報告有關蔡委員提案102條部分這個部分先前也有跟蔡委員報告那因為這個部分 101條之二101條之二 對不起 101條之二的部分因為這個部分也不涉及本次海嵐安全的這個修法的範疇那也跟委員報告"},{"start":9553.98,"end":9579.478,"text":"副委員同意納入本次修法的一個討論那坑區委員會同意維持行政院版本不予修正好那第101條之後我們不予增訂現在處理第102條委員徐屋奎等16人提案徐屋奎同意不予修正那第102條不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":9609.133,"end":9628.059,"text":"今天的會議整個過程非常有效率也因為交通部航港局葉局長針對眾多的修法的條文積極的來跟提案的委員做說明並針對委員所提的"},{"start":9628.519,"end":9648.941,"text":"必須要檢討注意的事項提出積極的改善的一個說明或是針對法條相關的實施的進程以及政策的具體的推動也向提案的委員做具體說明所以今天的這個提案相關的條文的處理就非常的迅速"},{"start":9650.802,"end":9665.095,"text":"這個在這邊也提醒交通部不管是針對委員的提案或是接下來相關預算的審查有關於委員的提案我們也必須要像今天航港局一樣來積極的向提案的委員來做說明溝通讓整個會議"},{"start":9667.097,"end":9693.937,"text":"能夠更具體的一個有效率的推動也讓委員知道交通部相關部門的這個意見以及建議那也讓交通部各部門來了解各個委員提案的一個具體的想法以及針對交通部相關的這些建議來做一個正面的一個檢討那我們今天協商處理完畢做一下宣告"},{"start":9695.236,"end":9715.899,"text":"本日各修正草案之主條審查其協商結論免於宣讀授權議事人員整理為決議內容委員徐欣穎所提書面意見列入紀錄刊登公報針對本次會議做以下決議"},{"start":9717.423,"end":9739.034,"text":"《基石法》、《電信管理法》、《氣象法》、《商港法》及《傳播法》等修正草案均以分別弊案審查完略分別凝聚審查報告提報院會討論院會討論權均不需交由黨團協商院會討論時均由理召集委員崑澤做補充說明"},{"start":9741.109,"end":9767.687,"text":"审查过程就审查的结果如需补充立法说明请各法案组则机关尽速送交通委员会以便列于审查报告调制引述条文部分文字及原影调次授权主席及议事人员整理本次会议结束散会谢谢"},{"start":9771.596,"end":9789.957,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9803.418,"end":9803.438,"text":"哦"},{"start":9812.568,"end":9836.64,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"166037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af78f61e36d9303a620b28663f7a8bd118017e9c371ce25497958fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:07:05 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但是很用力"},{"start":157.474,"end":173.568,"text":"因為整個區域用電而且未來嘉義的產業的布局都是在這裡跟委員報告地方政府如果支持我們蓋DSES其實台電公司都會盡全力快速的來趕工"},{"start":174.689,"end":192.134,"text":"因為我們現在是有些主要是遇到有些DSES沒辦法取得用地或是沒辦法變更來或是拿到建造來建董事長但是我們嘉義還好我們嘉義因為我們嘉義是用產業園區的土地沒錯所以相對只要有支持我們都會加速來蓋對我們這邊相對跟你們之間大家互動是良好的那應該整個速度就加速來蓋是的好不好那董事長可以先回"},{"start":201.096,"end":220.316,"text":"那我再來問水的問題啦水的問題就會涉及到了接下來嘉義縣的一個海淡廠那現在海淡廠的一個還在環境影響評估中那水的問題可能未來這個海淡廠要提供很很重要的一個水的供應那這個海淡廠目前"},{"start":221.246,"end":242.811,"text":"推估是2032年才會開始供水每天的供水最大量是10萬公噸那想要請教部長 這個進度都沒有變嗎我請同仁說明一下好不好我再check一下好不好進度沒有變嗎"},{"start":244.929,"end":270.752,"text":"好那可是我要跟部長說一個狀況我目前掌握的訊息是說未來因為我們這個海淡產是會在布袋山港外圍去做填海造陸部長這部分你清楚嘛對可是現在就把填海造陸的成本要把它算入為未來這一個海淡產它的興建成本所以可能就會影響到未來水費的問題哇那問題就很大囉"},{"start":272.959,"end":289.745,"text":"部長因為這是兩件事 填海造陸是為了我們地方要增加腹地所以那是填海造陸你不能說把填海造陸因為未來我們海淡廠就希望在這個填海造陸的地方興建海淡廠所以填海造陸的成本也是海淡廠的成本"},{"start":291.104,"end":308.072,"text":"不好意思所以這個東西 可能你要幫我們回去可能要 要 當然要 還沒發生啦還沒發生 可是我現在有聽到這樣的狀況那可能以後大家就卻步啦 說哇 那個成本怎麼忽然間暴增這麼多"},{"start":308.792,"end":325.375,"text":"是是是因為天海照入他是大概規劃了十幾公頃十幾公頃咧海灘廠也沒用這麼大所以你把天海照入的成本算進來的費用的計算那這件事不合理是是是 好不好第二個我再來跟"},{"start":326.096,"end":349.984,"text":"就是說現在有談到產業園區這個用電的升級所以我們希望在產業園區或是科學園區去推動公共的一個儲能去有這個儲能的一個補助那科學園區會事半那未來產業園區那我想要跟部長來建議的就是說事實上我們知道未來整個因應整個AI的一個發展"},{"start":351.525,"end":377.992,"text":"那AI是需要用大量的電的所以這一個如果我們在產業園區不能由經濟部直接來盤整一個地方然後由經濟部我們的產業園區我們的管理局直接就來經營儲能有沒有辦法這樣現在我不曉得因為管理局他現在賦予他的這個"},{"start":380.145,"end":408.293,"text":"任務啦沒有這塊啦我意思是說你記得我們覺得要補助手上每天去辦儲能我覺得說產業園區如果直接可以用更就是說我們乾脆更積極一點我們直接在產業園區盤整適當的地方做儲能設備那我們可以在離風用電的時候把電力儲起來然後在尖峰用電的時候再給產業園區的商家去使用這些電的話"},{"start":409.173,"end":436.243,"text":"事實上你只要規劃妥當的話這件事對於整個產業園區用電的效能會有大幅的一個精進部長我覺得這部分你們可以斟酌一下那我們來思考一下好不好跟這個園區就是討論一下如果可以這樣做的話我們就來試辦看看可以試辦看看嘛因為這樣的話對於整個用電對不對有時他沒用電的時候我們就讓他去欠電啊是是是環境一樣都是使用者付費啊"},{"start":437.363,"end":458.841,"text":"這一些需要用到 尖峰時候需要用到多一點電的商家他自然就要付費只是說這樣的一個設備由我們產業園區局自己來管理因為這樣量比較會大 除了東西事實上有時候都需要量體是要一定的部長可以先回 趙委再給我一分鐘我要請國發會主委請國發會主委"},{"start":464.697,"end":491.743,"text":"委員好主委事實上我要延續剛剛這個富奎委員有去詢問的因為這一次關稅的影響經濟部之外事實上農業部是有的那我們有編列180億但是我要跟主委講事實上我們大家都忽略一件事就是說這一次的關稅事實上對隨產品尤其是出口到過去出口不管是出口到美國或其他國家"},{"start":493.403,"end":511.854,"text":"對於有出口的水產品傷害非常的大這個傷害大是為什麼呢是因為在關稅不穩定的時候很多事實上在進口水產品的他家都大量進了他就那時候都已經滿倉了啦他都進滿了那進滿了後現在這些水產品開始回賣了"},{"start":516.437,"end":536.523,"text":"抓 他們不需要你也知道說水產品那些東西你如果不買到 它是要繼續持續持續持續你像螺旗 螺旗的生長大概是六個月八個月它如果到六百起就不是它適當的一個規格所以你現在螺旗你現在沒出沒出"},{"start":539.275,"end":566.021,"text":"超過規格後 哇 最慘的是包括很多一些大型的商家你像Costco 它就說 哇 你這個漁民你這隻魚已經過大隻了 太大隻了啊 不是 他們要餓了所以就會造成惡性循環不只是鱸魚喔 我覺得未來我們台灣釣吳國瑜會有這樣的狀況喔這個是有一點 因為之前的囤貨造成整個水產品它現在是一個供應非常不順的狀況"},{"start":567.472,"end":590.847,"text":"然後我要跟主委直接建議啦這個時候要解決這個問題勒事實上就是要想辦法最快的時間先去化現在口袋裡面這些東西所以可能你要我們現在有特別預算嘛180億來協助這些農水產品的話可能就是說國軍可以吃鱸魚啊鱸魚將你健康學校營養午餐來吃一下鱸魚啊過去"},{"start":592.808,"end":619.056,"text":"因為這個很貴 樓宜是算比較貴的沒機會 現在有特別預算來去化 讓孩子吃 健康 營養在這個賺的費用 這樣有什麼不好跟委員報告其實我們有針對那一個農漁會有在推所謂的冷鏈設備的新建跟升級這個也可以把部分的那一些庫存的這些沒有賣出去的可以把它冷凍起來 然後做一些加工處理"},{"start":620.016,"end":639.247,"text":"那是往加工方面但是我要跟主委講的就是說我看到的是因為他們沒有辦法銷售就是變成說養到過季了養到過季了 養到過季了養到過季了 養到過季了養到過季了 養到過季了養到過季了 養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養到過季了養"}]}},{"id":"166036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7ef47635a24d9783896d3b95029a3bab617e9c371ce254979d6b39e882d62cf0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:00:57 - 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我們會有各種不同的勤務加急對 我知道那是不是會造成基層跟非戰鬥部隊的官兵相對的剝奪感呢"},{"start":176.67,"end":192.037,"text":"以及你認為這樣子會不會對於他們的士氣也造成了相關的影響呢那這樣子就不會提升戰力了那這對戰力會有整體性相對下降的影響"},{"start":193.407,"end":208.765,"text":"因為我們有一個言析就是說戰鬥部隊的邊線比不夠高的情況之下我們第一步現在提升戰鬥部隊的一個加級不管是第一類的戰鬥部隊或第二類的戰鬥部隊"},{"start":210.126,"end":234.706,"text":"那先將這個屬於任務比較繁重比較艱困的戰鬥部隊加級先提高之後那我們其他的這些加級我們也都陸續的在檢討那所以您就會看到就是說我們的在報告裡面所提到的這個不管是六月或七月就會針對不同的加級也會來做調升"},{"start":237.768,"end":256.452,"text":"那現在有關您提到的這個戰鬥部隊這個基層跟就是非戰鬥部隊跟基層那非戰鬥部隊的話那也要考慮他的很多方面比如說他的專業性他的技術性等等我們也會來"},{"start":259.193,"end":281.266,"text":"持續的來檢討增加他的加級所以你們是部長你的意思是說對於非戰鬥部隊並不是不給予加級而是你們要增加一個就是整體性的評估戰力對於官兵有戰力的評估然後再給予加級嗎是這個意思嗎或者我這樣跟委員報告這樣子好了"},{"start":282.567,"end":297.198,"text":"戰鬥部隊本身它就分成直接戰鬥的這個第一類型還有從事戰鬥支援任務的所以您講的非戰鬥部隊事實上在某種程度就涵蓋了很多是屬於戰鬥支援部隊的那現在就是說"},{"start":299.019,"end":323.771,"text":"我們現在如何把這個戰鬥部隊這個層級要拉高這可能是我們要去檢討因為過去戰鬥部隊的層級是限制在聯級以下但事實上現在以一個聯兵旅作為一個打擊部隊或者是一個戰鬥部隊來看的話那麼所有的聯兵旅以下事實上都合乎戰鬥部隊的定義所以我們要檢討的是如何將這個戰鬥部隊的這個"},{"start":326.572,"end":340.858,"text":"這個發放的這個對象的層級要檢討要來提升那這樣就等於包括所有直接要戰鬥或者支援戰鬥的這個部隊他所能夠涵蓋的範圍就整個會擴大那這樣子的話就會讓我們"},{"start":344.51,"end":366.047,"text":"這個需要提高這個變現比以及提高這個誘因的這個程度能夠像剛剛委員所講的精準的這個投放在我們需要增加的能力上面好那對於喔你們現在已經在調升的網路站的加級跟電針加級等高專業的技術加級喔那"},{"start":366.949,"end":393.636,"text":"其實這個部分國防部怎麼確保跟民間的科技業你有同等級專業的薪資水平因為你知道現在不只是國防部的這個就是電資的相關的人員需要加薪那你知道民間的相關的這個部門需求也非常的緊那你怎麼樣子保持"},{"start":396.923,"end":405.971,"text":"這個確實不是一件非常容易的事情所以我們這一次在網路站加急的部分我們就將那個專家級的月值數額再調整1萬應該是到6萬所以"},{"start":411.156,"end":429.471,"text":"當然我們也知道沒有辦法完全的跟這個民間來做這個單純以薪資來講做一個競爭但是我想我們還是想辦法透過因為到國軍來有個好處就是我們對他的所有的培育他都不要花他"},{"start":430.592,"end":455.242,"text":"的一個一個自己的錢然後都是由我們來支應那我們會有一個培育的計劃來讓他來來那另外他隨著他的一個階級的調升他的薪水當然也會調升那在在透過這樣子的所謂專家級精英級的可知己的這支領的人數的比例我們把它從15%提高到30%"},{"start":456.903,"end":479.506,"text":"那然後像這樣子的一些誘因從人才的培育到給予他的家籍然後再透過不斷的一個階級他可能的一個被提升那我想國軍相對來講提供一個穩定的一個環境那同時也盡量的"},{"start":479.986,"end":494.642,"text":"培育他成為一個高專人才我想透過這個方式來來留住來留住我們需要的這些那你認為現在透過相關的這樣子的待遇調整之後你說志願役人數超過2000人那請問"},{"start":497.405,"end":520.234,"text":"這些新增的人力主要集中在什麼樣的軍種什麼樣的階級跟什麼樣種位那是否真的能夠有效的改善以及對於你剛才所說的像現在的網路站也好電真站也好你有沒有辦法真的能夠就是說留住你需要的人才"},{"start":521.485,"end":534.123,"text":"我想我們說的是志願役的縣員叫去年成長2000多個人不是超過2000多 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有請我們龔部長跟我們葉主委好 我們請兩位 謝謝徐委員好部長好 主委好"},{"start":21.263,"end":38.334,"text":"我想這個台美的關稅的問題當然引發我們國內百工百業的一個關切那尤其我們這個未來這個產業跟我們的所謂的這個農業的一個變遷會不會影響到我們台灣這個鄉親的權益我想這是我們許多人關心的一個問題"},{"start":39.315,"end":61.759,"text":"那我知道這個從賴總統也好還是行政院各部會都有針對這個國力十大新動能然後還有AI新十大建設甚至我們針對農業有提出180億的一個輔導措施那請教部長跟主委我們目前針對這樣的一個輔導措施你們有沒有掌握到底這個輔導措施有沒有發揮一定的功效"},{"start":65.684,"end":78.018,"text":"经济部的部分大概编列这个特别预算有460亿那从这个8月7号开始因为我们用以晚计到现在已经开始实施了那现在大概有2000多个案子"},{"start":79.08,"end":91.045,"text":"已經開始申請 那我們盡快把他往前推進我們現在北中南東我們跟各個工協會都有說明會除了這個之外我們也會有一個輔導團主動的去北中南東各個實地的去協助他們有在追蹤這樣的一個輔導成員嗎有有有 是的"},{"start":103.91,"end":123.34,"text":"那我想除了這個經濟部之外主委針對我們這個國會發布的這個10月份的景氣對策信號當然我們是希望我們國內的產業發展能夠持續的向上那您也有特別提到說這個我們已經掌握到台美關稅的情形最壞的情形已經過去了目前確實是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":124.821,"end":149.29,"text":"目前就是说厂商其实有一些厂商其实已经慢慢的在适应这样的一个关税的一个状况那他自己本身也在做产业的转型比如说像工具机业者的话其实有少部分的工具机业者其实他自己本身在做转型所以他目前的情况是往客制化的方向走所以工具机业的其实有反应就是说虽然美国那边"},{"start":150.29,"end":172.117,"text":"的那個關稅還是比較高可是他慢慢的在做一些轉型然後做客製化那單有一些從那個歐就歐盟那一邊其實有在接一些單過來不過我想說因為我們目前的暫時性關稅是20%那當然對我們的這個整個出口也好產值也好甚至這個工商業的影響我想都會有大家都在關注"},{"start":172.857,"end":190.635,"text":"那當然就我們來看的話我們屏東市農漁大縣那未來這個部分我們也要求我們的相關單位應該持續來關注這樣的一個議題好那另外我想主委請回部長我想上個禮拜經濟部核定了這個核二核三再運轉的一個可行性的一個計畫那"},{"start":192.757,"end":202.072,"text":"我們之前一直提到包含所謂的核廢料的問題最終處置檔的問題還有社會共識的問題那目前不曉得經濟部如何去看待這些的一些狀況"},{"start":203.804,"end":224.746,"text":"核案的問題我們現在就是開始自主安全檢查那自主安全檢查就還要請這個原廠來跟我們共同檢查完以後還要做國際的peer review就是這個英文叫就是同儕審查那審查通過以後確定以後然後才會把這個"},{"start":225.843,"end":249.595,"text":"審查我們自主安全檢查的這個報告送到這個核安會 核安會會按照他的這個專業再審查安全上是有這樣幾道的程序OK那我再請教一下經濟部曾經說過未來要做減煤蒸汽展綠非核的這個一個訴求那會不會因為核能發電廠的這個"},{"start":251.557,"end":269.773,"text":"運轉再評估的計畫之後我們這幾個能源政策會有所調整跟變化減煤增氣還是會持續的進行當中再生能源的發展也會持續的進行不會有排擠的效果不會啦 但是我們也一直擔心說這個綠能一直被污名化之後"},{"start":270.313,"end":298.921,"text":"那现在我们包含经济部也好农业部也好我们也期待能够未来真的要展开一个好的一个辅导措施尤其在这个我们相关的产业都需要用电的状况之下我们都会支持好的能源政策但是未来我想对恒春半岛的居民来讲核能发电未来的安全性才是重中之重的工作那这边那个曾董事长我想这个我们核三桶的同仁也很关心这个议题那未来这部分怎么样去强化这个议题"},{"start":300.899,"end":315.238,"text":"跟委員報告就是說河山廠現在的狀況我們還是因為他雖然停機但是我們還是維持因為安全的必要我們的整個相關的工作都還都維持著那至於您提到安全的部分我想說"},{"start":316.219,"end":334.944,"text":"安全一定是河南電廠運轉的最前提的要件甚至他停止運轉以後他的安全也還是我們的首要的前提案件要件但是現在聽起來好像河山廠是因為這個剛剛處理之後所以被評估成最可能馬上可以恢復的"},{"start":337.203,"end":360.869,"text":"應該不是這個樣子就我們在評估的時候說明的狀況是說因為它現在因為它的燃料池有足夠的空間所以它現在爐心裡面沒有燃料棒所以河島區的安檢是相對於核二來講它可以比較提早進行所以我想這個未來我們也會持續監督這樣的一個機制是的那大家一起來努力真的把我們的台灣的能源政策好好的來把它做好了謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":366.008,"end":367.18,"text":"谢谢 接下来我们请"}]}},{"id":"166034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7ec29c84f4d62c5a096d3b95029a3bab617e9c371ce254979628ecc4a3d608f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:45:48 - 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我們有請顧部長請顧部長部長午安 辛苦了是 陳偉好 部長我想先就最近我們這個台海周邊的軍事活動相關的事實那個事件來和部長您做討論那近期這個外媒報導"},{"start":25.892,"end":49.066,"text":"紐西蘭海軍最大的軍艦在11月5號航行通過我們台灣海峽那這也是從9月以來再次有紐西蘭的海軍通過這個台海而在這個航行的這個過程當中據稱中國的這個艦艇和飛機持續在做監控那甚至有這個中國的戰機來進行所謂的這個模擬攻擊"},{"start":50.306,"end":79.226,"text":"我們中關過去這幾年不管是歐洲還是印太地區的友好國家派遣軍艦在我們台灣海峽執行所謂的航行自由的活動當然都是依照國際法所保障的航行自由權利不過當今天有美國以外的國家派遣軍艦通過台灣海峽的時候通常共軍都會派出海空軍來應對尤其在今年以來"},{"start":79.906,"end":80.03,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":80.509,"end":109.416,"text":"共軍所採取的反應似乎有更加強烈的跡象比如從2月以來包括日本、加拿大、澳洲還有英國的軍艦通過台海共軍除了增加附近空域的軍事活動外還會實施聯合戰備警巡除了展現反制的手段以外也是對台海管轄權的法律戰我想就此來請教部長"},{"start":110.777,"end":128.677,"text":"從這次紐西蘭海軍的這個案例來看是否代表中國對於這個歐洲或是印太國家派軍艦通過台灣海峽的這個應對措施有升級的這個趨勢那這其中有沒有擦槍走火的風險我方應該如何來因應"},{"start":130.733,"end":156.711,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說我們支持各國來經過台灣海峽從事自由航行這樣子的一個自由航行權有關遭到中國的跟監等等的這些挑釁的行為目前觀察來看還不具有擦槍走火的風險"},{"start":158.547,"end":178.054,"text":"我們國安部會利用聯合勤政的手段都有在全程的來掌握跟應處一切都還在我們掌握之中近期還有台海有事說的論調中國和日本之間的關係略顯緊繃在上個月底"},{"start":181.135,"end":209.656,"text":"日本防衛大臣小泉晉次郎也到這個西南諸島進行視察那之後日本防衛省就公布11月24日齁有中國的無人機穿越台灣和這個與那國島之間的空域那日方也派出戰鬥機緊急起飛前往應對那我想請教部長在這一次的事件當中我們國防部是否也掌握這一架無人機的來源和意圖而我方的應處作為是什麼"},{"start":210.376,"end":210.657,"text":"中國的無人機"},{"start":224.379,"end":245.866,"text":"這個日本這邊公布的大概就是11月24日那他出海之後是沿著我們的航空識別區跟日本的航空識別區就恢復這個飛到西太平洋從事一個一個一個長航的一個一個任務了那日本的飛機一般例行性的他都會在就這一個"},{"start":246.906,"end":267.321,"text":"像您提到宇納國島這個空域 他會來起飛警戒應出那我們都有全程的掌握部長 我們掌握這架無人機會是空軍的無人機還是其他的無人機系統它是一個KVB808的無人機"},{"start":271.206,"end":277.651,"text":"與那國島和台灣距離只有110公里日本自衛隊從2016年進駐了160人的沿岸監視隊後來也進駐了電戰部隊近日小泉防衛大臣也證實了自衛隊已經規劃在這裡要部署034的防空飛彈"},{"start":292.662,"end":320.778,"text":"那外媒也報導美軍要在這裡建立這個前進加油點使得這個第一島鏈成型的更嚴密的這個防衛整個這個串聯我想請教部長日本和美國在包含與那國島的這個西南諸島加強相關的軍事部署跟整備的相關規劃當中我們是否有角色在其中扮演那尤其未來若是其他的這個防空飛彈部署"},{"start":322.359,"end":324.18,"text":"與我方的防禦範圍有所重疊對於我們台灣支盾的規劃會不會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":331.554,"end":360.131,"text":"我想這樣就是說美國跟日本會加強在日本的西南諸島的軍事部署那你這邊有提到這個與那國島的這個防空飛彈的部署這個都是為因應中國的基建頻繁的洗腦突穿第一島鏈的這樣的威脅所以他跟我們要致力於以這個嚇阻或者以實力來維持區域和平穩定的這個目標是一致的"},{"start":360.811,"end":386.312,"text":"那至於我們的要建構的台灣之盾是以我們現有的防空系統作為一個基礎那我們強調整個偵測一直到這個決策還有打擊整個系統來做整合然後來遂行一個多層次跟高效率的一個攔截那我想我們是為了加強強化我們的自我防衛能力而設而來建制"},{"start":387.784,"end":394.216,"text":"部長 我剛剛問的就是在這個第一島鏈形成的過程裡面我們台灣有沒有角色的扮演"},{"start":395.325,"end":420.507,"text":"我想戰略上來看的話美國跟日本都要強化他們的一個這個軍事的威懾所以在西南諸島所做的軍事部署也是基於這樣的道理那所以協同嚇阻我想是大家共同的一個理念那台灣在第一島鏈的前緣那更要強化自我防衛的能力這個是必然的"},{"start":421.047,"end":449.307,"text":"也就是說我們之所以要提出這樣的特別預算還有我們要提高我們的國防預算在GDP的佔比都是基於我們的防衛作戰的需求而不是單純的只是說為增加而增加這個都是基於需求而來那我想強化我們的防衛能力就能夠強化嚇阻那日本跟美國也一起加入從事這樣的協同嚇阻那就能夠維護區域的和平穩定也會治台海的和平穩定的現狀"},{"start":450.759,"end":472.634,"text":"好 那由於我們台灣跟日本之間並沒有所謂的這個制度性的同盟關係那在軍事上也缺乏共同演訓的機會遇到緊急狀況的時候是否能夠有順暢的一個溝通或是協作的機制來整合區域內盟友的一個資源那我想還是就這個部分請教部長"},{"start":473.274,"end":500.066,"text":"台灣和與那國島的距離相當的近那我們是否應該和日方來建立一個常態性對話或是協調的一個這個良善的機制來因應中國的這個揮帶侵擾或是有任何的緊急處理的方式我們國防部已經有掌握當中我們跟有盟國家都會建立一個情報交流跟情質交換的機制那麼"},{"start":502.25,"end":530.9,"text":"也共同來掌握台海周邊以及這個執行任何突發狀況的一個處置作為我想這個我們平時就就已經在建制 就有建制好 那日本和台灣這個長期的友好關係未來我相信在這個西南諸島強化各式的這個軍事整備對於台海的和平穩定會帶來正面的效應那也持續請我們國防部能夠對於這個部分的這個方面來加強"},{"start":531.88,"end":549.074,"text":"那另外我想就另外一個議題想請教部長在今年10月底監察院公布了一份調查報告當中提到在國防二法實施之後政府希望能夠引進一定比例的這個文職人員來參與國防事務以提升我們國防部決策的品質並且能夠達成"},{"start":551.556,"end":563.909,"text":"文人領軍的一個政策目標又提到在這個民主先進的國家任用國防文官的比例都超過七成以上我國的這個標準相較其他國家已經明顯的偏低"},{"start":565.646,"end":583.044,"text":"造成我們文官政策難以落實那在報告當中也提出幾項造成國防部文職缺額率偏高的一個癥結點包括這個升遷管道有限薪資誘因不足另外還有一個是文官心態的一個保守等等"},{"start":583.945,"end":608.701,"text":"而且監委認為在國防部對於三分之一的這個文職條款規定採取了不同的計算方式可能有意來掩飾長期以來任用這個文職未達法定比例的一個情形更讓我們這個條文形同虛設所以要求國防部進行檢討那在此我想對於這個監委所提出的這些質疑我想請教部長"},{"start":609.181,"end":626.623,"text":"我們文職人員任用的這個比例究竟是多少那應該怎麼樣來落實三分之一的這個文職條款的規定又有關這個文職人員不足的這個部分"},{"start":629.008,"end":644.098,"text":"光部現在已經全面性的在檢討有關這些文職人員在我們國軍內部特別是光部本部以及光部本部以下的這個一屬是"},{"start":645.659,"end":672.942,"text":"一署四局一署四局的這些部分我想我們會來一個想家的檢討那確實國安部的這個文職人員他們進來也要經過一些安全查核然後另外他也要對部裡面的組織文化要能夠適應才能夠長留久用這些但是這些都"},{"start":675.967,"end":704.267,"text":"不能夠說我們就因此就不需要來進行檢討所以我想我們要如何讓這些所有的應該願意來到國防部服務的這些文職人員能夠能夠理解國防部的整個的對他這個整個人生涯規劃的一個一個一個保障還有我想還有他的可能的一個"},{"start":707.355,"end":722.809,"text":"就是說他對整個整個他的專業的一個要求等等的我覺得這個部分我們會做一個全面性的一個檢討好那最後一個問題我想在上週五我們也看到總統公布了新任這個軍政副部長人選是我們"},{"start":723.61,"end":751.265,"text":"徐思簡博士來擔任那我們也知道徐副部長是學者出身那多年來在外交和國安的領域深耕也多次參與台美之間的重要這個對話會議那顧部長您在先前擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也和您配合多年我想請教部長那對於徐副部長來到國防部有什麼期待那希望能夠借重他的長才來推進哪些政策那有沒有可能會主責對於"},{"start":753.706,"end":767.276,"text":"這個對美的軍購另外您也身為這個文人部長對於文人領軍的這項政策考量到的政策目標和實施的實際的這個情形認為有什麼優缺點又該如何來做檢討"},{"start":770.315,"end":798.04,"text":"簡要的回答三點第一點就是說軍政副部長即使是這個前任的這個伯副部長其實他也是以文職任用的只是說他們出身的背景可能會說伯副部長是過去是軍職出身的那現在的徐副部長是這個文職出身但我要講的第二點就是說"},{"start":799.867,"end":820.473,"text":"徐司檢副部長事實上在國安會他的歷練很多部分都在國防的相關事務上面因為國安就是包括兩岸外交國防那其中國防是佔了非常大的一部分所以您剛也提到在台北的軍事交流的部分很多時候都是由"},{"start":822.234,"end":845.295,"text":"當時的徐副秘書長或者現在後來的徐諮詢委員然後現在要再擔任副部長他由他率隊去參與這樣子的一個台美的軍事交流所以事實上是他對國防的事務是很閒熟的第三點我要說明的就是說我想我們用不管他的是"},{"start":846.656,"end":875.726,"text":"過去有沒有擔任軍職或者是他在國安會有相關的國防事務的歷練我們都希望他是一個我們都依賴他的專業專長那我們會希望他能夠深入參與各項的國防改革計畫然後對國防事務我相信他現在在有一定的深刻的掌握情況之下上任之後一定會持續發揮他這個國際事業跟戰略的一個長才來協助我們各項這個落實各項國防施政的措施"},{"start":876.246,"end":890.351,"text":"好 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我們再請工部長"},{"start":18.68,"end":32.276,"text":"部長好部長本席也要為我們淡水鄉親請命是禮拜五吳裕景的這個管線破裂而造成說到現在已經將近60幾個小時我們淡水公司真的非常努力我知道因為昨天早上我也到現場去給"},{"start":34.418,"end":49.589,"text":"不管是禮拜六晚上我先請同仁去送飲料感謝這些台水在現場施工的同仁還是我昨天早上也到現場總工程師在現場新北市政府公務局局長在現場本席也了解"},{"start":50.109,"end":74.294,"text":"接管完畢之後還要再送水不是說馬上接完管之後我們最終端就打開水龍頭有水但重點在於是說這個資訊的落差跟掌握的速度沒有及時讓我們所有鄉親知道這第一個部分所以到現在剛剛你雖然講是說有八成恢復用水但是事實是對於沒有水的加護就是零啊"},{"start":75.614,"end":100.853,"text":"80%其實是沒有意義的有80%會用水但是我這個家庭如果說打開水龍頭沒有水那就是零它就是持續的停水這第一個部分所以我們就是要盡快盡快把這個水壓輸送到這個需要的這個好本期比較具體的來講兩個部分第一我們其實有不可抗力因素的這個水費補償辦法就是說如果說天災來的時候那該"},{"start":102.608,"end":111.425,"text":"停算水費的基本費的這幾天我沒有用水就沒有用嘛那這幾天現在已經確定了現在辦法出來沒"},{"start":112.974,"end":140.069,"text":"我們可能還是要跟我們會照我們規定來辦理所以就是可以從寬認定從禮拜五到這個禮拜一甚至今天可能都要算算入那什麼時候會公告讓我們民眾知道其實這個是最卑微請求這也是應該的是吧我們今天就來公告好今天公告就是我們不可抗力因素因為水停水而造成不可抗力"},{"start":141.209,"end":159.258,"text":"該家戶受影響能夠減免的部分請今天就公告讓我們淡水鄉親知道第二個部分我們也支持因為這個起因是新北市政府委託的施工廠商做淡北道路施工的時候挖破管線但現在有傳出來講說是圖資不相符"},{"start":160.185,"end":177.832,"text":"就是說管線在下面跟我們自來水提供的圖資不相符合造成說挖到管線但具體是怎麼樣因為眾說紛紜我想第一時間我們全力搶修停水完畢但第二個部分是要釐清責任什麼時候能夠釐清責任"},{"start":179.637,"end":197.048,"text":"報委員 這個部分我們當初在這個工程新北市新工處委外設計的時候我們就有辦理會勘會勘的時候我們的同仁就有請他們由我們的維修警進去巡查那個管線的實際位置"},{"start":197.668,"end":217.602,"text":"那不然就是要辦理探挖但是事實上我們據我們目前所知是這兩個件事情都沒有做都沒有做所以這個廠商已經不是第一次囉因為我知道是說其實這次只是最大規模的停水但之前已經有兩次零星小規模的一個狀況不管是挖到管線還是說造成我們的這個鄉親的一個"},{"start":221.032,"end":246.742,"text":"那這如果說都沒有做那事情很嚴重喔我覺得應該要由自來水公司這邊也要好好的督促因為責任要釐清我現在對鄉親來講家庭的生活影響已經是事實那我們要釐清責任所以說我現在要要求的是說那到底責任歸屬在哪邊新北市政府委託的施工團隊有沒有依照相關的施工SOP"},{"start":247.442,"end":263.995,"text":"還是說我們提供的物資 額 圖資有錯誤那這個部分 釐清我們什麼時候可以釐清來 部長這個 是不是我們我們經濟部有一個管卸小組我們會儘快來那如果真的有需要我們也會請台水公司去做求償好"},{"start":264.355,"end":284.681,"text":"那就麻煩因為本時完全支持新北市府如果說要這樣的話要依法依照相關規定跟廠商來球場那如果說台水公司在這個過程裡面有搶修而造成的費用該球場也要球場我們代位球場不能由到時候納稅人買單嗎好那這個部分一個禮拜內是不是可以跟新北市府來做一個釐清"},{"start":287.398,"end":298.971,"text":"因為現在在搶修當中 搶修完畢之後對 搶修完畢之後看我們盡快就看看兩個禮拜到三個禮拜 好 那就麻煩好 那第三最後一個部分部長"},{"start":300.168,"end":317.119,"text":"淡水新市鎮現在20萬人口就淡水20萬人居住兩條管線進入到淡水的自來水一條是佛舊市區這次沒有破所以舊市區這次停水沒有受影響一條是佛新市鎮這一次就是破到這一個主動賣的新市鎮的管線"},{"start":317.839,"end":338.998,"text":"那我們也就看 原來淡水地區20萬人這樣子是非常脆弱的一個用水那也因此 本協也講說現在在淡北道路的一個工程裡面是不是能夠延逸加設另外一條管線給淡海新市鎮的一個鄉親那或者是過去我們其實有淡海新市鎮另外一個計畫就是增加蓄水池"},{"start":340.119,"end":360.334,"text":"5萬噸的蓄水池我想我們自來水公司的同仁應該知道本席在講什麼過去其實有研議過那現在只有一個3萬5千噸的蓄水池在淡海新市鎮那但是我們之前有考慮備援因為如果說新市鎮人口越來越多的話應該要偵測一個5萬噸的蓄水池那依照這一次的一個臨時60幾個小時的停水狀況是不是能夠"},{"start":363.436,"end":384.07,"text":"我們最快速度來啟動我們看是要新增一個管線做預備或者是5萬噸的熱蓄水池計畫那我們後續再來做一個協調可以嗎我們會盡快評估出來好那這個一個月內評估出來那本席也會協助來跟新北市府如果說需要用地的部分需要"},{"start":385.215,"end":400.22,"text":"這個工程的介面整合部分我們一起來協調但最重要的是把這一次的停水當成是一個教訓那未來不要再發生那最重要的就是那我們就要有備援計畫我們來做 這樣可以嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7d069b00cfc902ff396d3b95029a3bab6b5a5e9a97e51bcb837a2079df6bf46255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:26:45 - 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我們麻煩部長有請顧部長部長早安 您辛苦了我想第一個問題我們就直接來我想請問一下您之前說11月海空號無法交件每天要罰19萬這個部分已經開始要做了嗎"},{"start":23.54,"end":48.308,"text":"我們會就按合約來好 那就這個部分麻煩雖然杯水車薪跟他的總金額比起來但是既然已經跟國人說了就麻煩貴部一定要做到不管說這個台船現在到底是什麼人貴部還是要做到好 那第二個問題我想今天的主軸是軍人加薪待遇結構的檢討那我們都支持軍人"},{"start":49.808,"end":74.659,"text":"待遇要提高那我們也絕對支持國防要強化但是我們要問一個很根本的問題立法院三讀通過的軍人待遇條例那每個月要調高加幾這比約300億的預算其實是可以穩定軍心尤其是在兩岸兵兇戰亡或是總統前幾天講了那個2027的這個事情之後其實穩定軍心穩定民心是非常重要的事情但是我們現在卻發現"},{"start":76.6,"end":92.822,"text":"我們對內我們拒絕編列對國軍的加薪預算甚至還提出四限來拖延這個完全違憲違反權力分立第二個我們對外卻制定了一兆兩千五百億"},{"start":94.384,"end":107.44,"text":"的這個特別預算這史上最大的特別預算而且我國目前在執行的跟國防有關特別預算不是只有這個大家不要誤會的不是只有一照2500億是還有好幾個特別預算目前都在執行都在花錢中"},{"start":108.962,"end":130.621,"text":"我來跟 所以我一直在想就是說我們對於這個300億是0.03兆我們斤斤計較但我們對於美方的1兆2500億卻付得很開心然後一直要讓美國再次偉大那讓美國再次偉大之前可不可以想想讓台灣也稍微讓我們中華民國也稍微偉大一點那我想 請問一下 在談新的1.25兆"},{"start":133.264,"end":151.096,"text":"這個軍購之前我想我們到底是在護國軍還是在護美軍我們先算一下舊帳2019年的那66架F-16V的2472億原本是2023年第四季就要交兩架2026要完成66架但是我們現在看到的"},{"start":152.349,"end":178.093,"text":"而目前我們審計的報告我們一件 一架都還沒有交而且我們付出來的錢已經超過七成了那我們還是必須照常的付款那這個巨額的資金到美國去只是美方就是賺寶的利息動不動都是幾百億嘛那當初預算編列是依據美方所提供的那個發價書LOA來去所訂的時程啦但是後來都沒有做到"},{"start":178.573,"end":206.354,"text":"那2019年說2023年會來結果現在也都沒有來嘛那我在這邊跟我先跟國人報告一下也跟部長報告一下一般買賣商購的那DCS它就好像你去買車嘛那車商說什麼時候要交沒交就是罰錢東西不好也要罰錢也要賠償但是呢我們交了兩千多億卻拿不到一架戰鬥機還不能罰美國的錢我想這個就是軍購案嘛就是FMS嘛"},{"start":207.174,"end":235.724,"text":"軍購案 好 那軍購案的發架書裡面這LOA的發架書裡面有幾個霸王條款部長你跟我一樣都念法律一定非常的清楚我請大家仔細聽好第一個 他沒有罰則第二個 交貨其成是僅供參考第三 死都要付錢第四個 最後我們還是要保護美國最高利益內容很簡單 請大家看一下我的那個PowerPoint上面 寫得非常的清楚"},{"start":237.464,"end":265.739,"text":"FMS就是政府對政府 所以裡面沒有預期罰款的問題再來 交貨的期程 這個只是預估值沒有任何強制第三 死都要付錢就算美國武器一拖再拖連通知你都懶得通知你 為什麼他一拖再拖你還是得付錢最後啊 我們要保障美國所有的利益我們美國只能賺 不能賠而且所有的風險 台灣單這個就是目前的狀況嘛部長 你有沒有認為 我哪一句講錯"},{"start":267.312,"end":283.226,"text":"跟委員報告吼那個無論如何都得付錢這句話我想不盡正確吼我想我們上次已經有報告過了那你們付多少了 請問F16V付了百分之多少了請問F16V付了百分之多少 幫委員我們幫委員我們從"},{"start":286.232,"end":304.472,"text":"請問F16V付了百分之多少不好意思我的題目非常簡單請問F16V我們付了百分之多少了我們付到百分之六十左右就停下來了好那是不是也是付了嘛那你要的回來嗎但是現在已經四十八架在組他在組的過程我們"},{"start":305.293,"end":317.39,"text":"就必須要付這些生產所需要的錢好 然後呢 都拿不到啦你大筆資金匯過去啦你按照原來合約期成付款錢就留在美國啦請問一下你要的回來嗎我講一句 要的回來嗎"},{"start":320.711,"end":339.745,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們已經說明了我們成立了專案辦公室然後也美方也盡力的在盡快的加速這樣剛剛站規師也提到了在線上生產的這個飛機的架數已經50架所以我想我們預期我們因為明年的年底最後到期嘛"},{"start":340.265,"end":355.522,"text":"那我想我們會盡快的在這一年當中進促警察加速這個飛機的交付這個就好像部長您在十月的時候回答媒體的話說我們海昆號十一月交接有相當大的挑戰這就政客的話術嗎"},{"start":356.923,"end":382.689,"text":"根本不可能啊你到現在連前一次都沒有過了11月可能交件嗎那一樣你現在說我們2026總目標不變這個其實也是不可能嘛好就算今天美方真的2026一次全部給你大說哈一次全給你請問一下我們的人員培訓呢我們的地勤呢我們的品質驗收呢難道就是隨隨便便一次全來嗎那"},{"start":384.309,"end":411.962,"text":"你不用擔心說我們國人 我們這些國軍使用飛機的安全性好 所以啊因為你們說的是說2026總目標不變嘛對不對 那我只是跟你說好 就算總目標不變馬上就2026啦 馬上就2026了那你一次全部交給我們不可能嘛要全部 我們現在要盡量的加快但是當然要全部能夠再交2026年以前交機 這確實有相當大的挑戰"},{"start":413.903,"end":422.428,"text":"部長現在不是全部不全部的問題就算我剛講就算美方可以在明年一年全部交完但是呢全部交完還是有一些驗收的問題啊"},{"start":423.962,"end":450.789,"text":"出廠檢測品質的問題啊我們有沒有足夠的飛官跟地勤啊有沒有辦法同時驗收跟接收這66架這都是問題人才的部分空軍都有在準備那有關這個相關的測試的飛行相關所要進行的這些驗收當然都要嚴謹的來進行相當大的挑戰其實這意思就一樣嘛其實就是政治人物的空曠那我剛剛在跟您報告"},{"start":452.91,"end":472.181,"text":"錢會滯留美方這是審計部的報告這不是我講的您現在如果覺得不會那您去告審計部好了不然就請你的同仁準備好審計部的報告給你看為什麼審計部要告訴我騙我說目前錢就是滯留美方那如果這樣的話跟你說的就不一樣好那再來就是"},{"start":473.394,"end":492.922,"text":"2026雖然F16V您的說法總目標不變但是我也說即便總目標不變一次66架梭哈給你但是我們有非常多行政上面根本不可能達到的就像您當時說11月海昆號交建有相當大的挑戰一樣大家聽完都在笑好那我再跟"},{"start":494.431,"end":519.186,"text":"部長說啦 你們2019年啊 已經如期交貨F16V已經被騙了一次 人才兩失那你 我怎麼知道 跟你怎麼知道1.25兆這個軍購會準時當年2019年的部長也是說沒有問題啊 美方都已經講好其成了但是做不到就做不到 而且最慘的是軍購做不到 還沒辦法處罰他跟商購不一樣 那請問一下那我怎麼能夠相信1.25兆的這個軍購會準時呢"},{"start":522.208,"end":545.58,"text":"更重要的是您說1.25兆的採購我們已經取得美方的報價美方也已經提供交運的期程但是我剛剛也說了這個交運的期程這個只是最佳交運時間這只是一個建議的他沒有做到也沒有關係所以這就是讓我們很擔心會不會又變成一個大錢坑另外"},{"start":546.681,"end":574.77,"text":"依照軍購的程序我們是要先送需求信函給美方嘛LOR給美方之後美方才會回復報價那既然說你說有報價那這程序上代表百分之百就是走軍購的那依照2500億又沒有罰則也沒有違約罰則交易期程 交貨期程只是供參考那這個就是我們將來會擔心的所以我希望這個禮拜能不能夠給我們一個資料就你們可以揭露的"},{"start":575.35,"end":593.38,"text":"部分不要再扣我們紅帽子什麼要我要拿資料給誰不用就你們可以揭露合法可以揭露不影響櫃部運作可以揭露的情況下給我資料就我剛剛提的那些我們質疑的地方啦不要只是口頭保證就是"},{"start":595.574,"end":618.95,"text":"違約交不了貨怎麼辦第二個如果說就是delay沒有違約金怎麼辦再來交不了貨怎麼辦因為這在F16V上面都發生那如果我們1.25兆這個東西也發生了你們打算怎麼處理這是一個很重要的點再來我也想要請問一個很重要的問題就是一個程序上面的問題你們可以看一下PPT"},{"start":620.543,"end":627.972,"text":"今年10月21號我們剛剛王定宇委員他去美國參加國防工業會議的時候就已經有提到這個為期7年1.3兆的這個軍事採購"},{"start":632.694,"end":661.084,"text":"結果呢 卓榮泰在面對院會的時候他卻他在許曉清問他 他卻一無所知啊那以我對於編列預算的了解是國防部先編列預算行政院核定以後才算數那為什麼會發現民進黨的立委都已經知道了結果行政院院長竟然不知道那這個是變成是美方寫好報價單直接交給我們代表帶回來啊那我們國防部再直接抄一抄 然後寫特別條例"},{"start":661.804,"end":690.436,"text":"這不就是幾乎就是要台灣來硬吞下去嗎所以這個程序有問題嘛院長本來應該是國防部編行政院核定結果現在是立委在外面都公布了就院長說我還不知道所以這個期程上面就給國人無限的遐想到底鬼出在什麼地方還是我們王定委員就會算命就會預測未來是這樣子嗎所以這一整個都非常的奇怪到底我們的執政黨在玩什麼東西"},{"start":691.536,"end":713.261,"text":"他要把台灣掏空到什麼地步去我就覺得很莫名其妙而且一兆兩千五百億耶你一兩百億都跟國人斤斤計較一兆兩千五百億卻卻是這麼的隨便像剛剛王定義委員也講什麼財化法補發還有人講補發一萬年金健保等等說在窮台在掏空台灣在配合解放軍"},{"start":714.561,"end":725.269,"text":"這些錢不是掏空台灣這些錢也不是在野黨拿走這些錢是交給全體人民或交給地方政府是用在人民身上但是軍購"},{"start":726.69,"end":749.885,"text":"是把錢拿去美國 好 就算你說拿去買武器是為了國人但是買了武器交不了貨 那我怎麼對國人交代所以我們當立法委員 我必須要監督這東西我再說一次 我尊敬您部長 您是我們法律大前輩我完全支持我國的國防我絕對支持國人 國防一定非常的重要我們要買適當的武器 能交貨的武器好 再來喔"},{"start":750.987,"end":778.965,"text":"部長第四條你們這次特別條例草案的第四條裡面七大項我也看到幾個很恐怖的點部長您是法律人我們也很清楚第六款第四條第六款強化作戰持續量能相關設備這句話空泛到不行法律人如果可以寫出這樣子的條款那等於是完全授權你愛怎麼做就怎麼做啦我買垃圾袋也可以說是要持續作戰強化作戰的持續的量能啊所以"},{"start":780.032,"end":805.945,"text":"為什麼會有一個這麼空泛的條款呢然後你貼上一個任何東西你只要美國掏出來叫我們買你就貼一個標籤說這就是強化作戰持續量能所需要的結果我們就必須全部買單所以這就是我第一個質疑的點為什麼第六款有這麼空泛的條文第二個第七款台美共同研發及採購合作但是呢我在這一款裡面完全看不到"},{"start":807.25,"end":820.25,"text":"任何技術移轉的比例台灣本地產值的門檻價格審議機制沒有一個說得清楚那請問一下這樣子的櫃買條款如果真的過了以後"},{"start":821.465,"end":850.017,"text":"美國跟台灣說要共同研發共同採購結果呢技術最後留在誰手上專利留在誰手上台灣是不是又變成了軍火商的提款機這是我對於第七款一個很嚴重的我覺得有很大的問題的地方你雖然講得很好聽但是呢你又沒有講要怎麼合作的方式甚至智慧財產權留在誰那裡怎麼在哪裡生產 產值的門檻什麼都沒有這是我一個很大的問題"},{"start":852.797,"end":872.346,"text":"還有我跟你講因為我不知道說這次這麼大軍公安是不是美國威脅加徵關稅如果是就勇敢說出來告訴國人說我們不得不吞下否則這真的就很像是台灣版的馬關條約這就是這樣不好意思再給我一點點時間抱歉"},{"start":873.345,"end":893.283,"text":"我跟你講台灣我們所有人民絕對支持國防我們中華民國絕對支持國防但是反對當凱子更不想變成詐欺案的被害人我想我們支持的就是這個點還有拜託不要把行政院長當傀儡連立法委員都知道的事情就行政院長竟然不知道其實這個還蠻離譜的還有一個"},{"start":896.585,"end":915.547,"text":"還有一個會發生債留子孫的問題因為你們這一次呢第五條特別條例你們第五條講的是說這個是可以規避公共債務法嘛對不對你這規避公共債務法等於我們是把未來這八年我們分裂在未來這八年裡面你會排擠掉原本國家的"},{"start":916.567,"end":940.811,"text":"的預算啊所以呢我們本來未來8年可以用在健保長照教育基礎公共建設我們全部都先借來花掉了那我想請問一下第一個部長這1兆2500億錢從哪裡來你要加稅還是要砍健保還是要砍長照還是要砍教育第二個錢要怎麼還請問你的常在計劃是什麼利息負擔多少還有"},{"start":941.411,"end":956.724,"text":"是不是還要繼續每年舉債有一些側翼啊很無腦在那邊說啊國防預算增加不會排擠社福因為兩個編列單位不一樣問題是錢就這麼大錢不會天上掉下來怎麼可能不排擠說不排擠都騙人請問您常債計畫怎麼做錢從哪裡來一定借來的嘛特別預算你要去借錢不是我們現有的預算請問常債計畫在哪裡"},{"start":970.756,"end":978.631,"text":"現在是讓我回答了嗎是 請說因為你剛剛講了一大串我想用了很多的形容詞"},{"start":981.496,"end":1002.971,"text":"長債計畫在哪裡用了很多形容詞我想我特別幾個點跟您報告一下可能您有所誤解我的問題是長債計畫在哪裡時間的關係我簡要回答一下可以嗎您已經講了十幾秒還沒有講到我想第一個您說這個一兆兩千五百億全部都是軍購這不是事實"},{"start":1003.792,"end":1008.635,"text":"沒有問題沒有問題但是是特別預算嘛不是您剛剛講說全部是軍購這不是事實因為因為您要讓我您講了那麼久你要來兜圈子齁我沒有要來跟您兜圈子那我先回答您最後一個問題我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎我先回答您最後一個問題可以嗎"},{"start":1030.609,"end":1048.661,"text":"有關特別條例的經費上限依照2500億分8年那來源為已用以前年度稅期剩餘或舉債方式舉借債務方式來辦理施行期間會依財政紀律法來管控舉債的規模我們也會依行政院的指導來嚴守財政紀律我還是聽不到這是官話一切依照規定一切依照以前的做法"},{"start":1055.325,"end":1059.528,"text":"都是官話我也沒有話講而且您對一照2500億的一個是條例等到後面要編預算每一筆預算還要再送大院來主筆的來審議剛剛那樣的講法顯然是誤解了條例的意義跟後面編的預算今天就是還沒有討論到這邊所以我才會拿出來問嘛如果今天立法院都已經審了都過了那還有什麼好問的還有最後講一個啦"},{"start":1083.982,"end":1097.595,"text":"您今天買了一大堆武器對於軍人的薪水斤斤計較武器買了滿滿的沒有人用我不知道理由是什麼第二個你也不是買到最新式的武器比如說F16V是4.5代"},{"start":1100.063,"end":1125.245,"text":"你買的是舊的武器那難道你要把台灣當博物館嗎因為沒有人操作沒有人願意喜歡當兵這次總援合直接少了9000人那等於是少了兩個旅遊戰鬥部隊其實這都是我們憂心的我不是找國防部麻煩我想您對總援合少掉多少可能沒有看我們的報告我們的縣議叫去年成長了2000多人我想您講的很多都不是事實好不好那有必要的話再用書面補充"}]}},{"id":"166029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7190e8f4c4b2d89ffb28663f7a8bd1180b5a5e9a97e51bcb873d0700f6c74c60f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:33:45 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謝謝好 謝謝主席請我們龔部長還有我們楊真寧總代表好 請兩位 謝謝好 部長"},{"start":19.508,"end":38.926,"text":"在川習會之前在我們經濟委員會詢問你就是我們什麼時候有好消息那時候你說因為他們正在準備APEC還有就是川習會的相關事宜因為川普在4月份還要去訪問美國"},{"start":40.667,"end":54.442,"text":"所以在時間的部分我想請問一下我們有沒有可能至少在4月之前明年4月之前我們的好消息可以揭曉部長來看我們的總代表"},{"start":60.208,"end":78.616,"text":"因為這個最後最後的這個最後的結論是要雙方是 你有沒有信心在明年川習會之前能夠確定我們台美關稅的整個架構有沒有信心"},{"start":80.131,"end":107.286,"text":"有信心我個人啦你個人有信心好就是至少在明年4月之前因為我們等了太久那請問一下今年底之前呢我們可不可以看到今年底之前今年底我們真的會努力的緊述的看看今年底可不可以達成總代表有信心嗎今年底之前我們要努力盡力的但是這個談判是取決於雙方"},{"start":107.566,"end":124.461,"text":"那另外就是刚才讲我们努力的目标请问一下我们会类似像日本的模式日本是15%而且不叠加还是韩国韩国的税率比我们低但是韩国会叠加"},{"start":126.051,"end":150.803,"text":"請問一下我們會比較類似像日本稅率降低不疊加還是像韓國一樣稅率降低但是仍然部分會疊加報告委員我們的目標就是稅率要往下調降對等稅率往下調降而且不能夠疊加而且不能疊加所以是採取像日本的方式有信心可以達到15%嗎"},{"start":154.14,"end":168.033,"text":"這個稅率往下調降是我們的目標15%是目標嗎這也是我們的目標至少15%我覺得要把變成15%以下難度應該很高吧15%以下的難度是比較高"},{"start":169.797,"end":190.968,"text":"這因為要看美國給各國的稅率如果要調降到一定的比其他國家高那就要好另外在這個外媒有報導而且呢看起來院長行政院院長也有證實這件事情就是我們談的架構裡面包括我們要幫我們的半導體業者要幫美國來訓練人才是不是"},{"start":198.092,"end":224.117,"text":"在整個的談判架構裡面包不包含我們要幫忙美國來訓練人才報告委員我們的談判架構裡面講到台灣模式第三個就是協助我業者在美國建立這個研區取得比較好的投資的條件我們沒有談到說要幫他訓練勞工這一部分的人這一部分的"},{"start":225.377,"end":245.088,"text":"所以按照卓榮泰院長很自豪說這個是我們很特殊啊其他國家沒有辦法有這樣能夠達到這樣的工作只有因為我們有科學園區的概念所以呢這就是台灣模式所以我們這裡面沒有包含我們要幫美國的半導體業者來訓練他的人才嗎有沒有嗎"},{"start":252.351,"end":262.531,"text":"沒有談 據我了解沒有談到這樣的內容那台積電他訓練他的員工這個是當然我們是尊重如果說需要政府怎麼樣幫忙我們可以另外再討論"},{"start":263.632,"end":291.445,"text":"但是不是政府以後我們政府跟政府之間的文件不是談判的條件之一不是談判條件之一我特別要講我們當然希望稅率能夠降低我們當然希望能夠不要疊加但是我必須說如果按照現在我們投資要4000億美金然後如果我們技術要送人也要幫他訓練然後甚至要到這個美國去建立所謂的半導體生態系"},{"start":293.586,"end":311.399,"text":"這叫做不折不扣的掏空台灣錢也過去 技術也過去 廠也過去所以我知道我們現在跟川普政府談非常非常的困難其他國家 日本 韓國 大多數也是這樣子但是我們跟留台灣的這樣的一個"},{"start":314.381,"end":329.167,"text":"的原則一定要把握住否則的話我們不能夠接受為了稅率為了要不疊加然後最後變成拋空台灣這是好幾世代的問題非常嚴肅"},{"start":331.728,"end":351.264,"text":"所以刚才我听到邱志伟委员讲说好像以为立法院只会唱反调但是我觉得我们相关的原则这是我们一定要把握住的好不好我们这一代人真的不能把我们几代人累积的这些成果全部送出去谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af701ce4ca7dbbeb500b28663f7a8bd1180b5a5e9a97e51bcb87b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:21:00 - 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謝謝"},{"start":36.214,"end":64.083,"text":"黃委員好部長高關稅的事情大家都很關心不過我剛剛看到你們在回答其他委員的質詢的時候看起來要問到一個具體的時間點是非常的困難就是不管是你或者是楊總代表講話都非常的有藝術但是我現在先講一個對於我們新北的鄉親比較迫切的問題我不曉得部長有沒有注意到這個週末的新聞"},{"start":65.39,"end":88.701,"text":"淡北道路10月27號挖斷自來水管線造成大概淡水地區6萬5千戶左右停水這個是10月27號的事情到11月30號的時候我們的自來水公司說有逐步的覆水這個是11月30號發出的聲明"},{"start":92.123,"end":120.434,"text":"今天早上新聞媒體的報導是停水超過68個小時停水戶自嘲淡水人已學會用貓砂停水68小時在現在的家庭生活當中甚至有一些營業用的店家這到底是一個什麼樣子的概念所以現在大家最關心的一件事情是請問淡水的民眾還要再等多久"},{"start":122.441,"end":139.292,"text":"源頭供水的部分已經在供了那現在就是壓的部分水壓的部分管線末端我現在不是問問題啦我現在是問說淡水的民眾大概很急迫的知道一件事情的答案就是還要等多久"},{"start":140.39,"end":157.777,"text":"你總要給人家一個時間嘛人家才可以比較務實的去規劃他接下來的生活嘛否則在昨天的時候發一個聲明說下午五點逐步覆水那但是大家每一個人都待在家裡面等啊"},{"start":159.141,"end":185.456,"text":"等水來了沒有啊等馬達聲開始響了沒有啊那一直等到今天早上還是一堆人家裡沒有水可以用那因此我才藉由這個質詢的機會因為一般的民眾可能打了電話去問你們也沒有辦法得到個確切的答案是不是可以跟大家講說什麼時候可以修復完畢覆水成功報告委員那個淡水大概有19個里"},{"start":186.755,"end":207.959,"text":"那到目前為止我們統計大概有12個里的部分大概我們管現在還有幾戶在停水大概負水率大概將近八成將近八成你確定有八成但是因為很多是高樓那高樓的部分因為他下不是啊你八成怎麼算的我聽不懂啊"},{"start":209.448,"end":237.234,"text":"你八成怎麼算的啊 覆水率有八成這個是依照我們目前管網的現況那跟委員補充報告就是因為有很多大樓他必須要地下水持續滿以後才可以往上送所以這個時間會比較慢所以什麼時候可以完全覆水我們目前的評估大概到下午4點應該是各個大概有17個里應該都可以覆水完成"},{"start":237.642,"end":255.278,"text":"那還有多少沒有辦法覆水完成因為你現在在用國會寶貴國會職權的時間我聽到都還是空的啦剛剛你說有八成來來來你看一下我今天早上我今天早上收到的公告目前12月1號降壓戶數還有17508戶"},{"start":262.401,"end":281.774,"text":"那就是用水受到影響的還有17508戶然後你站在國會說覆水已經有八成這個數字是對的嗎八戶委員因為總覆數大概六萬兩千多戶啦所以呢啊這樣子有八成是你數學有問題還是我數學有問題"},{"start":286.023,"end":314.15,"text":"這個數字喔 來來來 你上面看一個是9951另外一個是7557加起來17508戶啊我現在沒有要跟你爭執數學的事情啊你們說八成覆水客觀上這不正確大家可以去算啊但現在淡水的民眾最關心的事情是什麼一個週末"},{"start":315.595,"end":335.963,"text":"整整一個週末沒有水搞到今天早上你現在還沒有辦法承諾什麼時候可以覆水完成嗎什麼時候可以正常的恢復供水完成就是崁嶺跟新村的坡因為高地區比較晚一點大概凌晨2點可以全面覆水明天早上凌晨2點拜託你們"},{"start":342.062,"end":368.169,"text":"淡水的民眾自己都已經開始自嘲了沒有水的狀況現在是不是要學會用貓砂看了好像很細虐看了好像很細虐但是實際上面對他們來講那是影響非常重大的事情切回今天的主題我只有一個最簡單的問題因為剛剛很多委員問了很多次但我還是沒有得到一個答案"},{"start":369.744,"end":377.589,"text":"之前行政院說談判有相關資訊會事實報告這個是7月11號的新聞鄭麗君副院長出來講的第二個8月賴總統稱我們現在20%加既有的稅率20%加N是一個暫時性的稅率賴總統說渴望再調降"},{"start":391.564,"end":413.315,"text":"那從8月1號賴總統這樣講 8月7號開始上路 到今天12月1號了嘛那大家最關心的事情是 這個暫時性的稅率還會暫時多久發財委員剛剛已經有回答 是 還要暫時多久 儘快嘛所以儘快有可能是兩個月 也有可能是半年嘛"},{"start":414.482,"end":435.357,"text":"我這樣說對不對我自己的判斷不會到半年那麼久那你的判斷還要暫時多久我們會盡快對啊所以你說不會半年但是你會盡快我們在國會問啦我必須要老實說齁永遠只能得到這個問題來第五次實體談判是什麼時候舉行的"},{"start":440.023,"end":455.415,"text":"那個談判代表不是站在你旁邊嗎第五次實體談判是什麼時候舉行的在九月底跟十月初九月底跟十月初嗎那整整從十月到十一月十月到十一月就沒有任何的實體談判了嗎"},{"start":457.431,"end":484.756,"text":"是因為都已經談完了嗎不是 因為我們能救這個23號供應鏈它是一個非常複雜的議題我瞭解所以要做文書的往來透過線上的交換有需要第六次實體談判嗎我相信只要達成初步的共識要有第六次的實體所以還要有第六次實體談判嗎對那第六次實體談判以後到真的能夠達成協議恐怕還有一段路要走吧"},{"start":486.732,"end":509.929,"text":"因為你們今天的題 我為什麼問要不要有第六次實體談判我不曉得談判總代表跟經濟部部長對你們今天所提到國會裡面的書面報告到底熟不熟悉你們在裡面跟大家描述的是我們已經歷經五次實體談判 現在在做文件交換等到文件交換完了以後 接下來就渴望來簽協議"},{"start":512.233,"end":517.022,"text":"但我看了你們文字上面的描述所描述的那個process我覺得非常的困惑"},{"start":518.53,"end":542.924,"text":"第五次的實體談判是九月底十月初等於十月十一月 整整兩個月沒有再進行任何的實體談判透過文件的交換在十二月可以達成協議這怎麼可能所以我才請教你會不會有第六次的實體談判那你現在認為應該有需要進行第六次的實體談判只是第六次的實體談判的時間點你現在也不知道嗎"},{"start":544.082,"end":568.987,"text":"我們都會盡快的安排我知道都是盡快跟盡速最後一個我只想提一件事當初前部長郭志輝在8月的時候說4000億美元的投資引發軒然大波經濟部那個時候說沒有沒有沒有郭志輝不是那個意思郭志輝只是用日韓投資美國當作例子來講結果沒有想到"},{"start":570.226,"end":590.104,"text":"無獨有偶今年11月21號金融時報寫了台美協議將拍板台灣估承諾投資4000億美元真的是非常巧合8月這個金額出來的時候經濟部消毒消了半天說郭志輝只是舉例啦"},{"start":591.058,"end":618.613,"text":"不是4000億美元結果11月21號金融時報又講4000億美元現在4000億美元這個數字是定了嗎所有的投資金額到現在沒有議定有一個區間嗎他是在做一個揣測因為金融時報也是揣測嘛金融時報是不是也是揣測不好意思請你針對我的問題回答金融時報是不是也是揣測那你們有沒有發函要求金融時報更正"},{"start":619.724,"end":642.755,"text":"我們有對外跟大家說明 這個金額是一個揣測不是啊 那你要跟金融時報講啊說你這樣寫不對啊這麼重要 這麼有信譽的國際媒體怎麼可以沒有事實基礎 妄自揣測要發函去跟金融時報講啊怎麼可以這樣隨便揣測這是國際知名媒體耶這是國際知名媒體耶"},{"start":648.373,"end":672.229,"text":"沒關係啊你們到時候談判出來的時候是不是4000億美元到時候盤掀開就知道了但我要提醒一件事我只要提醒一件事拜託日本5500億美元南韓3500億美元很多人在看絕對數字說台灣大概介在這兩個金額之間但我看的是佔GDP的佔比"},{"start":673.755,"end":693.65,"text":"日本5500億美元 占他們GDP是14%韓國3500億美元 占他們GDP是20%假設啦 現在我講假設因為我們國會立法委員對到底要投資多少錢 老實講我們也不知道然後看媒體 原來是媒體亂寫經濟部部長 前經濟部部長講原來前經濟部部長只是在舉例"},{"start":697.773,"end":710.729,"text":"然後也不是4000億美元所以我站在這邊我只能假設假設是4000億美元的話占我們的GDP占比多少這樣的占比會不會太高部長會不會覺得太高"},{"start":713.154,"end":735.996,"text":"報告委員 我說過我們的投資模式跟日韓是不一樣的完全不一樣 因為日韓他是把他的外匯拿出來所以我們現在是金額未定 但投資模式定了是嗎投資模式幾乎是不一樣 我們是產生自主性的去投資我說啦 投資模式不一樣 所以投資模式定了嘛只是投資金額還沒有定 是這樣嗎"},{"start":737.546,"end":757.958,"text":"如果是所謂的自主啦那如果自主的話 你今天就在這邊拍胸脯講啊我們對美投資承諾的金額是零啦因為所有的投資都是自主的跟政府一點關係都沒有都是廠商樂意 自己要去的跟我們的政府跟台美經貿的談判一點關係也沒有承諾的金額是零嘛好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af78dd434db0a920a9bb28663f7a8bd1180b5a5e9a97e51bcb8057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:08:41 - 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您請回"},{"start":331.059,"end":333.521,"text":"那本席要來請教我們的部長工部長台美關稅協議呢即將要出爐我也要謝謝索領軍的總談判代表剛剛說我會盡速會快速那這個方向是爭取對等關稅稅率15%而且不疊加的這個原來的原稅率是不是如此這個方向"},{"start":356.636,"end":375.669,"text":"接下來232條款也有關於到我們關稅優惠的待遇是不是232條款 是楊總代表在點頭那麼既然你們兩位都說是那何時可以告訴我們你們預估大概什麼時候可以告訴我們"},{"start":377.482,"end":403.383,"text":"報告委員因為剛剛總談判代表請依照你經濟部長的立場來回答談判代表告訴我們我會盡快進數就從4月份開始每一次的回答都是如此我們當然期待也是盡快的可以那什麼時候呢你們總是有一個KPI嘛因為從4月份到現在那你們告訴我進數盡快是12月底會告訴我們嗎你預估會不會會不會 部長"},{"start":407.453,"end":429.594,"text":"因為這個我沒有辦法把握你也是沒有辦法把握 你是我們的經濟部長那一月份會不會因為你們都參與其中啊那一月份會不會你們是盡量 我們社會大眾在聽到一個是盡速盡快 一個是盡量所以我們到現在還得不到答案有沒有信心達成"},{"start":431.966,"end":454.085,"text":"有信心但是沒有時間點是不是如此有沒有信心達成剛剛告訴我們的這個方向是喔 楊總代表我可不可以再請你再上來一下兩位因為告訴我們是盡量因為告訴我們是盡速時間點那剛剛部長回答是有信心那請教楊總代表"},{"start":455.376,"end":484.082,"text":"是不是朝著232優惠的這個待遇以及這個15%從現在暫時性的20%到這個15%然後不加原來的關稅不疊加這是我們談判目標一定要有信心一定要拿到這個最好的優惠稅率所以你是有信心可以拿到剛剛我們所說的這兩個方向這是我們要達成的目標一定要有信心是信心嘛齁 那所以時間點還是沒有辦法告訴我們"},{"start":485.209,"end":499.299,"text":"因為談判是雙方的不是一方的因為一拖再拖讓我們的產業不知道該怎麼辦 你知道嗎現在在我們的中部地區我們的工具機 機械類別 扣件等我們不只關稅的問題我們還有一個匯率的問題"},{"start":502.89,"end":516.965,"text":"所以剛剛本席特別舉了日本工具機的例子人家增加那麼多 我們的成效是如此你們告訴我說 你們都很清楚那我們的產業要怎麼辦"},{"start":518.486,"end":538.145,"text":"這是本席所要請問的我們的產業到底要怎麼辦我們的產業現在只有什麼 裁員 減薪而且會影響到本來穩定可以勞工收入的去繳他的房貸 現在也有也有 乾脆我停止了繳房貸"},{"start":539.181,"end":556.113,"text":"你讓家庭的生活都已經受到影響我們到底要怎麼辦去協助產業我們還是有支持方案來支持他們就是說短期間不管是貸款的問題雨仙也不收傘然後貸款的問題最後一個議題我請國發會國發會本席跟你討論在一個月前本席再次請教你我們的傳統產業這麼辛苦您現在的AI導入"},{"start":569.316,"end":589.068,"text":"轉型但是本席告訴你我現在現有的傳統產業中小企業他的貸款他已經在急救室了你應該先解決讓他可以存活下來啊所以本席具體要求你 你去研議現在他們的貸款你可以怎麼樣補貼他們利息你可以怎樣減可是"},{"start":592.096,"end":598.835,"text":"上個禮拜本席收到你的這個回函一個月後的研議你們現在結論要怎麼做怎麼補貼"},{"start":600.611,"end":627.191,"text":"有啊那一個部分還是一樣就是說我們會透過那一個一些銀行的一些機構譬如說像假設譬如說像台企會針對某一些特定的一些中小企業的一些一些信保基金啊他會提供一些利息的補貼這個是新貸新的貸款你舊貸就已經沒有辦法解決了你叫他再去舉新貸"},{"start":628.812,"end":637.596,"text":"所以本席告訴你的 請聽清楚有沒有利息補貼確認一下 有沒有利息補貼現在在急救室的這些有沒有利息補貼他原來貸款有沒有利息補貼所以本席就告訴你 你只有叫人家再去新貸我一定沒辦法 我要用什麼去貸"},{"start":654.703,"end":659.624,"text":"部長 國發會主委 請你真正聽聽產業的聲音好不好你到底告訴我 我現在在急救市的這些產業 他的貸款你有沒有地息補貼 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謝主席麻煩部長有請顧部長"},{"start":14.989,"end":31.248,"text":"我先追蹤一下我們之前在11月13號一樣討論的是薪資跟我們部隊結構的問題當時我們提到兩個其實基本上是兩個概念第一個我們現在在計算我們的邊線比是用全軍平均78%"},{"start":33.01,"end":47.952,"text":"當然這個有參考價值但在管理的意義上在決策的意義上呢其實他參考度比較低所以當時我就建議第一個我們應該分軍種分兵科分單位去算出他的邊線比"},{"start":48.857,"end":65.399,"text":"如果他是屬於機密 我們應該可以機密專報就是說邊線筆要分兵科就常常講的 你拿資源性的行政單位的跟第一類第二類作戰單位去平均計算這個數據呢這個數據沒辦法告訴我任何事情我沒辦法決策"},{"start":66.44,"end":92.394,"text":"第二個一定要像美軍一樣把那個臨界值也就是最小戰力域值這個threshold把它算出來那這兩個數據我就可以知道說這個單位的邊線比現狀是55它的最小臨界點應該要到81或80我就知道缺額多少那缺額來自於什麼原因我才能做決策應該讓它加擠多一點讓主觀管的什麼樣的東西多一點"},{"start":93.394,"end":112.051,"text":"才能做我們招募跟兵力配置的依據所以當時質詢是第一個重點在這裡第二個重點在於我們一定要面對一個現實少子化這不是台灣而已美國 日本 歐盟 德國 台灣都一樣少子化是一個客觀現實所以當我們在採購現代軍備的時候"},{"start":114.113,"end":135.063,"text":"反而要把少子化的因素納為前置條件我這一個裝備一樣的戰力這需要兩個兵那個需要八個兵那我應該要考慮這一個就是說我們在AI自動化現代化的導入的時候人力人員的配置要納入考量這兩個結合起來的話我就要請教第一個問題"},{"start":137.065,"end":147.36,"text":"邊縣筆的呈現採取分科分種分單位而且要列出最小戰力域值我們國安部願不願意這樣做什麼時候可以把它提出來"},{"start":148.874,"end":173.351,"text":"我們關於委員所提到的那個戰略預指現在是有在研議是有在進行研議各單位的這個編寫本來就在我們在討論各項這個相關的調整的時候都會把它拿什麼時候可以呈現因為部長我剛才講的這個如果牽涉到機敏我們可以機密"},{"start":174.079,"end":193.085,"text":"但是不管是參謀本部或者部長這邊軍政軍令系統這個數據很重要啊就是說我這個單位要百分之多少的邊線比他才能出去作戰而他現狀是多少不足的原因在哪裡我才能根據這個才知道說我們薪資啦"},{"start":194.045,"end":217.006,"text":"或者加幾啦我應該往哪邊加把人力補到我們必要的那有的單位一半就能作業了那50%他現在邊線比60%也許沒有那麼優先所以部長你懂我意思嗎這一個數字可能是你們做決策或者我們在這邊討論預算很重要的基礎數據啦你們什麼時候可以拿出來未來我們在委員會能不能採取這樣的看法"},{"start":218.706,"end":223.885,"text":"邊線比各單位最小域值多少距離差距多少或者已經超過了"},{"start":225.292,"end":249.428,"text":"什麼時候可以把它提出來就現在的你現在是說現在部隊的各部隊的邊線比我想這個已經是有既有的資料了不過據我了解沒有最小域值這個東西啊對那現在因為委員在提到的就是所謂的最小域值這個概念那這個概念我們要再請各軍種來做一個評估那現在正在還在進行當中就是說"},{"start":250.248,"end":269.038,"text":"我這邊列的第一個跟第二個我們在委員會有多次建議的一個是科學化的管理我現在兵力到底不足在哪一個單位在海軍到底是艦艇還是岸基艦艇是一二三級哪一種是因為這個小船特別顛簸某一型所以他兵線比比較低"},{"start":269.938,"end":298.141,"text":"那科技上能不能解決或者那個特別辛苦我的家籍該怎麼加把人留住這個是一套的然後加上第二個我剛才講我們現在的採購武器一樣的8吋流一樣的砲用8個人或者用3個人會不會自走存活率這都要納入考量所以人事預算及各項家籍應該根據這個來計算我也希望跟國民黨民眾黨好朋友因為國家安全沒有什麼國防沒有黨派之分"},{"start":298.962,"end":323.767,"text":"我們應該去思考我們現在一直在討論這個齊頭式的加薪不管加3萬加5萬加多少我們都很喜歡哪個人不喜歡加薪但是如果我們討論到國家的國防戰力的話是不是可以思考說我們把這個預算的總額來跟國防部談然後讓國防部把這個總額透過說來海軍陸戰隊邊線比偏低但我們確實需要這個單位把它加幾條高碼"},{"start":324.915,"end":345.092,"text":"或者高專精高專長飛行員飛行員我們希望做商比達到多少那我們現在像續服獎金只有續服那一年有再來就沒有了那是不是叫他留一年第二年就考慮離開就續服獎金要不要一直讓他超過年限就一直有又比方說我們上提到聯營的士官長"},{"start":346.926,"end":364.02,"text":"或者軍官他的戰鬥家旗連有贏沒有不合理嘛會變反淘汰變成我看我就做到這個官機身上去我反而薪水少了好多這個其實才能去把戰力把人力配置在最需要的地方"},{"start":365.321,"end":380.899,"text":"齊頭市的加薪大家高興但齊頭市的加薪其實對於把人力配置在需要的地方對國家未必是好事尤其部隊各項專長加擠地域加擠那是很專業的東西啦所以我請教部長就是說"},{"start":382.736,"end":397.327,"text":"跟委員報告 兩個 第一個就是說有關最小玉子的部分我們正在研究不過現在這個最小玉子的部分我認為還有涉及到屏占的轉換的問題因為平時我們有一個一定維持的一個"},{"start":398.307,"end":420.778,"text":"在戰演性任務底下的一個 最小抑制在平跟戰的數字要不一樣那另外一個戰時的話我們靠鞭死或跨邊動員之後會把整個戰力再透過臨戰訓練再把它提升這是兩個可能不同的 我想我們會在我了解 我上次這個你有提到鞭死動員要考慮那個專長會不會消失每個部隊小到任何一個艦隊或者甚至任何一個艦或者是任何一個主戰"},{"start":421.858,"end":441.814,"text":"部隊的每一個營那都要可能他一個火力營或一個現在要進的裝甲旅或者等等這些可能都要做一些細部的研究所以委員給我們這個概念我想我們會來各軍會來做一些細部研討但是平時跟戰時我覺得還是有不同平時戰時的域值一定不一樣"},{"start":444.376,"end":462.891,"text":"一定不一樣應該是不一樣那第二點就是說有關那個整個戰鬥部隊的這個定義到底是不是要維持在一個連級的層級而已因為本身戰鬥部隊如果你來講一個裝甲旅他就是一個戰鬥部隊那所以在什麼樣的情況之下我們跟行政院來好好討論一下"},{"start":463.932,"end":492.691,"text":"對 我覺得需要我們幫你們說是 戰鬥部隊的定義贏不算 連算這其實是不合不合現狀的完全不合現狀而且那會造成反淘汰所以我剛才提一個建議這個我個人的期待我期待在野黨期待我們國防部期待我們的執政單位大家坐下來談我們不要卡在平均齊頭市加薪這三萬塊當然我了解在憲法在所有的預算法相關上確實那個是有違憲的疑慮"},{"start":494.512,"end":517.357,"text":"我相信藍白陣營的朋友聽不下去但另外一面我們如果真的要幫國軍加薪又考慮到戰力的最佳配置其實根據所有的法律都應該行政部門跟立法部門坐下來談我們把這個總額把它框出來然後讓國防部提出一個最佳的預算的人事資源的配置讓我們的人留在對的地方"},{"start":518.197,"end":531.957,"text":"而不要卡在一個國防部應該有政黨黨派的本位而是應該去思考怎麼做讓我們的戰力更好軍力更好這是我期待所以我剛剛講的那個以聯兵旅來看那我們作為一個聯兵旅作為一個戰鬥單位我們從這畫面來思考"},{"start":534.921,"end":555.342,"text":"我看到你們在加級 尤其過去十年來我們加薪大概六次以上多數都是用這種概念 加級的 讓人配在對的地方我現在請教 強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的特別預算有人說沒有急迫性 沒有必要性 我開放的讓部長回答一下"},{"start":556.283,"end":581.911,"text":"那另外2027年2035年2049年這薛瑞福的說法2027是其實賴總統提出2027那個不是說那一天會發生什麼事而是2027是各國尤其盟友很關注的年份這個意義跟急迫性必要性部長的看法是什麼那我在那邊看到有人竟然主張零軍購就零戰爭零風險先去看看他家門有沒有裝啦他家如果有裝門有裝門鎖的話"},{"start":584.636,"end":611.282,"text":"那是不是就零大門 零窗戶 零門鎖 就零小偷這如果不是幼稚那根本就是侵略者的走狗 我講重一點的話每個國家都需要國防 何況台灣面對這麼大威脅零軍購 那乾脆零國防那這就這樣 百分百投降嘛所以這種主張 大概只有侵略者高興真正要求減少軍購 減少風險應該向侵略者要求"},{"start":612.375,"end":629.825,"text":"威脅別人的放下武器才叫和平保護自己的人放下武器叫做投降基本觀念都分不清楚到底是站在哪一邊那我請教你對這個強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力1.25兆的特別預算條例急迫性跟必要性在哪裡 請部長回答"},{"start":630.712,"end":648.987,"text":"我想簡單的就是說我們要考量這個中國軍事實力跟他這個反介入也就是有盟資源的能力不斷的增長就這個部分的話我們也已經有一再的提到就是說現在不管是灰色攜帶的洗澡並同這個軍事威懾的這樣的一個複合式威脅"},{"start":653.61,"end":666.06,"text":"已經讓我們感受到這個他們由言轉訊由訊轉演 由言轉戰的這個預警時間越來越縮短所以我們當前是要迫切的就這個"},{"start":667.782,"end":687.229,"text":"為了應對當前的破屑我們要具備我那天在總統府記者會裡面有提到我們要加速完備多域聚集者的能力建構一個多層次的防衛體系這是一個嚇阻力量的建構你剛才提到一點我不好意思我追問那一點因為過去從迅轉眼從嚴轉戰"},{"start":694.272,"end":718.662,"text":"不管從2049辦公室那個伊安伊斯敦所寫的書或過去的評估都說中國要籌備武力犯台以前都說最少需要60天的準備部長我問這個比較敏感一點你可以回答就回答以你們現在判斷中國解放軍如果要武力犯台他從準備到發動攻擊那個時間到底縮短到多短"},{"start":720.629,"end":733.236,"text":"我想委員這個問題就可能為難我們都會根據抵可能的行動做好我們這個聯合作案計畫但是我想詳細的可能就不是這個時間你們有嗎我覺得評估應該有"},{"start":735.997,"end":752.565,"text":"過去他們從logistic就是他們的所謂的後勤備載去把人員集中物料集中各方面的集中到兩期準備什麼以前一般抓60天到100天這個是過去各個智庫在算的可是我最近一直看到同樣的話說這個準備期"},{"start":756.26,"end":774.338,"text":"不斷的縮短 你剛也提到這一塊就是說它從迅轉眼 眼轉站它的時間可能會縮短所以我們要加強多欲聚子 嚇阻力量我剛才聽到是這一個那這個短到底短到縮短的時間到底縮短到什麼幅度或者你方便透露是現在有沒有大幅縮短我想我只能夠這麼說就是說"},{"start":779.099,"end":804.898,"text":"你如果看他的針對性的軍演他已經是一個環台的一個在進行一個這樣的一個針對性的軍演所以他以這樣的演習的名義來進行這樣子的一個針對性的一個軍演在我們來看我們就會要我最後問一個我舉一個例子因為情次是在這邊這個謝中將以往為什麼認為他準備期要很長"},{"start":808.849,"end":830.721,"text":"是因為他必須把他的軍需 籌措 物流要花一段時間而且透過衛星看就知道他往哪邊集中了他現在還需不需要這樣做還是過去這一二十年他透過不斷的聯合戰備警訓 軍演把他需要的物資都已經放在應對的位置上那個 謝總將"},{"start":835.479,"end":856.431,"text":"報委員您剛剛的問題其實已經回答了您剛剛前面您剛剛已經把我們要回答的部分已經先做了提示那剩下細部的我認為我們是不是建議另外找時間我贊成我接受就是說你如果認為機敏不回答就是說局勢的轉變在這裡所以它的急迫性跟必要性"},{"start":857.455,"end":868.065,"text":"部長最後幾句話我們把它收尾這一次的特別預算在急迫性跟必要性跟我們剛才看那個只是一個例子喔其實我們還可以舉更多的例子在哪裡"},{"start":869.434,"end":889.79,"text":"我想最主要就是如果預算能夠做這樣一次性的配付我們就能夠資源穩定集中的來加速籌貨所需要的一個戰力嗎那這個是我們提出特別預算的一個編列的一個目的其實你們的集中也是分八年 1.25兆分八年一年是1500億"},{"start":892.011,"end":905.183,"text":"跟我們財化法整個割走的一點四兆每年其實國家安全的投資是有必要的我們面對威脅那麼大嘛謝謝部長 因為時間關係有其他這邊不宜回答的我們私下再進行溝通 謝謝好 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國發會的業主委"},{"start":142.315,"end":162.566,"text":"這個葉主委您的報告裡面提到說對這個臺美對臺灣蘇美主要工業產品大部分是這個半導體跟伺服器這些對20%的這個債券性關稅影響比較低那比較影響大的就是說包括工具機器械汽車零組件等等就屬於傳統產業的領域我給你看一張圖"},{"start":167.106,"end":193.863,"text":"這個你看這個今年的股價變化年初到現在紅色的全部都是AI半導體藍色的全部是船船那這一次這個台美貿易談判不管是你維持在20還是往下降維持在20還是一樣比現在更差因為其他的主要貿易對手國是15%嘛對不對所以我們重點不是在AI跟半導體我們不會受到關稅太大的影響而是受到最大影響是傳統產業"},{"start":196.728,"end":222.722,"text":"這個必須要對每一個產業都要很精確的評估好 這個您提出這個問題我要請您就針對傳統產業怎麼樣去振興 價值化要提出一個完整的國家戰略不能讓他們自生自滅而且我覺得經濟部所提出的相關的這些補貼什麼我覺得對他們而言是於事無補最主要是怎麼樣轉型去怎麼樣升級"},{"start":224.557,"end":244.671,"text":"有跟委員報告這個也是為什麼我們要開始推所謂的AI新四大建設這個部分我知道我們那麼多時間改天再跟你請教主委先請回我繼續請教楊總長我一直對你的報告我鑽研很多時間美方追求的很具體"},{"start":245.902,"end":272.094,"text":"它要增加農工產品出口對不對對 進股貸第二要建立公平的負荷環境第三個要實現環境領域的再工業化這三點都進股貸好 請教一下美國要求增加農工產品主要目的是要平衡貿易逆差對不對是的好 它有沒有具體提出哪些項目有提出哪些具體的金額請您回答"},{"start":273.392,"end":294.782,"text":"報告委員 我想美國跟各國談為了要平衡貿易都表示希望絕大部分的農工產品都能夠降稅所以我們就是記憶這個原則在跟美方協商的我的問題很簡單 還有沒有具體提出哪些項目具體的金額一般談判應該會有大概相關的項目跟金額出來吧"},{"start":296.543,"end":311.256,"text":"我想在談判過程中 大家交換意見的時候會提出來但是因為還沒到公佈的階段所以我們現在沒有在大院這邊跟您報告好 另外提出這個關鍵領域的再工業化"},{"start":312.202,"end":334.21,"text":"您能不能说明更清楚一下什么叫关键领域的再工业化它的关键产业最重要希望它再工业化对台湾来讲最重要就是半导体因为我们的出口百分之七贸易差百分之九成都是在半导体自动性产品和电子零组件所以它希望在这一方的产业它能够建立那台湾可以扮演什么角色呢"},{"start":335.253,"end":360.612,"text":"他希望台湾扮演什么角色或提供什么样的协助他关键产业的再工业化他希望我们在不管是在半导体或是电子零组件自通信产品能够再建立他们跟我们的产业的共同的共荣的合作然后高科技产业继续发展之所以担任台湾代表之所以成功我赞许你就是你把具体的都讲得很抽象"},{"start":363.342,"end":385.377,"text":"板抽象講的都很專業謝謝委員 因為現在談判還沒到終點這個是一個談判代表應該要有這種基本功夫好 接著非寬稅的部分包括美規車准入農產品標等等等這些都有達到這個相關的協議了嗎"},{"start":388.404,"end":413.662,"text":"這邊具體上大部分技術性議題都有抵定還是還有旗艦應該大部分都抵定了這是院長也說了所以我們只是在做文件一些技術性最後的磋商好技術性磋商你這邊寫大致完成再做文件交換對不對然後達成文件交換過程之後最後總結會議那會不會拖到明年"},{"start":415.459,"end":433.686,"text":"我們希望這個時間的壓力確實是談判你們設定一個時間點我們希望快速的把它結束但是一定要得到好的結果才能結束非常抽象我這個不追問你啦就是也許會拖到明年嘛"},{"start":434.87,"end":445.115,"text":"我覺得我們會努力希望在今年把它結束但是一定要達成好的結論對我業者有交代才會結束對產業界有幫助對台灣競爭力有幫助好最後一個比較重點是說"},{"start":449.366,"end":473.616,"text":"你在第一次台美私底說上的時候我們已經跟美方表達我們有國會保留法律條款對不對是審核我們協議文本要送交立法院來審議喔對好何謂審議審議是可以針對文本這協議的內容做修改調整還是你相關你就是可以要接受還是要退回"},{"start":475.536,"end":500.342,"text":"我想在过程你们做过相关的沙盘推演现在国会结构你理解吗我们理解我们也有做一些沙盘推演但是我相信如果我们争取到是对台湾最有利合理的条件不管是在对等不管是在232我们希望大院都能够支持要达到国会共识这个这件事最为困难的一次"},{"start":501.072,"end":522.982,"text":"在國會達成共識通常是這個執政長提出的相關的協議文本或者小案內容通常以過去這個兩年的經驗來看要不過的機會蠻大的所以你要碰到國會這一關我是非常憂心你跟美國談判的這個協議文本很完整你們也認為對台灣產業是有幫助的確保國家利益"},{"start":526.516,"end":539.784,"text":"如果國會是審議不是被查國會審議他是有權利修改協議的內容還是他如果萬一退回不接受你這個台美協議的這個內容的話談判辦公室 經濟部 國會怎麼去應應我順便請教一下那個國務部長跟這個諸位"},{"start":550.391,"end":573.76,"text":"我想在龔部長主委回答之前我們希望你剛說的情形不會發生因為對台灣非常重要美國是我們重要的經貿夥伴我也不希望發生但是如果萬一發生的時候呢我提醒你喔很有可能會發生那如果萬一發生的時候你們有沒有因應之道呢我想我們內部會做這個沙盤推演"},{"start":581.375,"end":606.547,"text":"這個是很大的問題啊如果在國會沒有辦法通過我們辛苦談判出來的協議文件文本那對美國要怎麼樣去溝通說明主席稍微再給我30秒再請教一下拱部長跟這個葉主委拱部長跟葉主委我剛提到的問題送交國會審議的問題如果國會"},{"start":610.649,"end":638.175,"text":"好如果不修改如果修改是不是可以修改還是整本退回或者接受你們有沒有針對這些情境做過沙盤推演國務長我們盡量說服為什麼剛剛楊總談判代表會跟美國一直談判說一剛開始就跟美國人講說我們國會有這樣審查權所以讓美國人知道說很多的要求"},{"start":639.335,"end":668.437,"text":"很多的不是 很多的要求必須要讓這個會期是預算會期耶現在預算都還沒有付尾 你知道嗎所有我們導應的條件也要讓這個國會可以接受跟通過才有可能性在10秒鐘在多少在10秒鐘那個葉主委我的看法跟那個國務部長的看法一樣就是全力去溝通希望國會可以通過祝福你們"},{"start":669.626,"end":670.032,"text":"天佑台湾"}]}},{"id":"166024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7a7a4eb011708aea396d3b95029a3bab6b5a5e9a97e51bcb89aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:53:58 - 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我們先請部長請顧部長是 陳偉友部長好部長上週我們聽到有幾位國會議員其實不只國會議員還有很多的這個在這個媒體的評論者都一直說台灣要不要成為烏克蘭這樣子的議題部長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":30.45,"end":47.347,"text":"台灣現在的關鍵就在於是說我們確實面臨了一個強敵揚言要以武力來併吞台灣這個是我們台灣現在正面臨的處境在"},{"start":50.635,"end":67.488,"text":"烏克蘭的這個部分當然俄羅斯他也是作為一個強權然後來威脅這個烏克蘭所以我們確實有面對相同一個鄰近的一個牆底的威脅的一個狀態存在"},{"start":69.502,"end":95.16,"text":"但台灣它在這個印太地區地緣政治的重要性至於對全球經濟的這個重要性呢我想具有這個不可替代的一個地位那麼台灣在現在要做的呢那就是我們現在所一直在強調的我們要以實力來追求和平"},{"start":95.953,"end":103.41,"text":"以實力來爭取我們現狀的維持那這個部分呢不是只有我們台灣"},{"start":106.169,"end":133.34,"text":"來獨自面對我想整個印太區域的國家也都感受到了中國軍事擴張的一個威脅所以在這個部分上各國也掐中了他們的國防預算然後來一起協同來進行一個集體性的一個嚇阻那我想我簡單的回應就是剛才部長講的都對那我自己認為是在野黨跟這些部分的評論者是問錯的問題"},{"start":135.017,"end":159.372,"text":"因為重點是中國要不要成為俄羅斯要成為衰弱封閉被抵制的俄羅斯發動戰爭的是俄羅斯發動衝突的是俄羅斯那導致整個俄羅斯從過去的這種天然資源紅利到被所有六十多萬人死傷引發十多萬的精英人才外逃經濟上面甚至造成只能靠軍工產業苦撐失去歐洲能源市場"},{"start":159.992,"end":188.079,"text":"同時成為全球被抵制最多的國家身負多項制裁最後還被踢出Swift的金融系統我想這個問題要問清楚中國要成為俄羅斯嗎要成為一個衰弱的帝國嗎所以很多時候這一黨也好或者是部分的評論者也好一直在提到這個問題好像是把這一種發動戰略者的責任去歸屬到被害者被害國我覺得這是對烏克蘭是不公平的對台灣也是不公平的"},{"start":189.329,"end":207.623,"text":"最近我看到有一些像是什麼什麼和平示威啊和平的這個要和平對我們要和平但是我們是要反侵略啊發動武力的不是我們啊我想這些論述我們要很清楚的去講那我還要再次強調不要只有在烏克蘭勝利的時候我們跟烏克蘭站在一起"},{"start":208.183,"end":220.145,"text":"我看到在戰事初期的時候在戰爭開始這個烏克蘭成功的這樣反攻的時候哇 所有的部會首長能蹭的盡量都蹭現在遇到挑戰的時候不知道躲到哪裡去可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":221.434,"end":248.345,"text":"我們剛剛提到說台灣的重要性是因為有很多國際的盟友會來支持我們包含我們的半導體的產業鏈包含我們的非紅供應鏈我們在遇到困難的時候我們希望人家來幫助我們那別人遇到困難的時候我們就要拋棄他嗎是不可以的所以我還是要強調包含日本我們上個上禮拜跟上上禮拜不斷的在這個國會的殿堂有提到我們跟日本的友好日本儘管是在有和平憲法的框架之下他們還是提供大量的裝備"},{"start":249.745,"end":264.693,"text":"資源給烏克蘭這就是在體制內我們要創造的是一個我們能夠有能力在我們遇到挑戰的時候其他的盟國敢站出來願意站出來願意提供資源如果在日本的和平框架之下都能的話我們更應該要這麼做"},{"start":265.894,"end":294.756,"text":"那當然烏克蘭有他自己國內的政治情勢那他們跟中國之間的關係以及怕中國再加強介入的這樣子的狀況我們都可以理解但是我認為我們必須要主動的去思考並且去應用他們在對這個俄羅斯的侵略戰爭的每一項技術每一項能力包含他們的薪資的這個部分為什麼要得到薪資因為烏克蘭的這個部隊他的最低的工資跟他的戰鬥獎金這些是我們都可以來去思考的部分"},{"start":296.454,"end":315.939,"text":"從2025年開始 儘管因為他們的國家是相對的在經濟跟我們這個人均所的是不成比例的但是他們對於戰區加水指揮的加級 戰鬥的加級還有特別的獎金 特別的獎金我覺得更應該要提到我這次在讀我們的報導裡面有提到說包含我們的情報人員 這個我們都會有加級"},{"start":318.179,"end":345.224,"text":"過去我們國家還曾經都會有派一些情報人員在中國現在可能沒有辦法畢竟中國的這個科技監控的能力是很強的但是我們可以思考說對於執行特殊任務或者是從這個傷病中我們現在沒有遇到這些狀況但是從烏克蘭直接第一線面對的我們都可以來去思考如果我們是全面性普發性質的把每一位這個軍職人員都增加的話"},{"start":346.084,"end":365.578,"text":"不符合效率也不符合公平性特別是在這個烏克蘭的武裝部隊裡面他們也還有再去細分身處戰區但沒有直接交火的跟身處戰區直接交火的跟直接交火又受傷治療中或者是被拘禁的都有做很細部的去做分區"},{"start":366.519,"end":384.621,"text":"所以這些資料我是建議國防部未來可以去做全面性的參考特別是烏克蘭的這個這樣子的薪資結構跟他的特殊獎金某種程度是足以支撐他們面對曾經是這個世界強國的俄羅斯能夠支撐這麼久並且能夠有打出非常好的戰果是我們可以去參考的對象"},{"start":385.382,"end":403.215,"text":"那2014年到這個2020年就是在這個克里米亞之後其實烏克蘭的國防預算是有增加但是沒有顯著性的增加導致於他們最後在面對俄羅斯的這個侵略的時候其實也是處處受制的"},{"start":403.975,"end":420.531,"text":"那後來他們也在做自我檢討假設從2014年這一次從那個時候的這個克里米亞之後他們能夠投入更多的資源的話可能對事後的這樣子的國土的防衛是有更大的幫助那中國是不可能給我們第二次機會中國不會再想"},{"start":421.212,"end":446.658,"text":"俄羅斯一樣因為他限制他限制於俄羅斯自己的國力他大概一次沒有辦法把這個烏克蘭這麼廣大的國土那做出這個徹底的征服所以他們有兩次的機會但我們台灣可能沒有兩次的機會所以為什麼會有1.25兆來分多年來去做這個預算他是有他的必要性的那所以對於戰鬥人員對於這個戰區加急這些我是希望這些資料現在"},{"start":447.478,"end":464.865,"text":"都有那請國防部跟薪資相關的去參考未來也都可以去做相關的參考那再來我要請教部長這一個我要關心一下我們嘉義中埔的這個九月份成功領的這一個受傷的國軍弟兄那"},{"start":466.365,"end":488.973,"text":"我先強調一下因為我們看到說最新的三種的有提供很好的醫療協助也是有一個類似的今年年初的受傷軍人他有利用相關的虛擬頭骨3D列印技術恢復他的整張臉我想請教我們嘉義的子弟國軍弟兄目前的康復狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":491.412,"end":507.775,"text":"謝謝鮑威人 經濟局副局長陳陽浩這邊報告就是說他在三種的部分來講的時候目前來講狀況相當穩定但是因為這個感染的部分來講比較厲害所以我們經過多次的清創部分來講說目前已經稍微穩定了"},{"start":508.215,"end":524.754,"text":"那麼對於這個頭骨不過是顱骨底的部分我們也會利用比較剛剛委員所提到這些科技的部分能夠給他做比較良好的重建但前提是他必須要能夠這個讓這個感染的部分能夠降低我們盡全力把這個部分處理好謝謝委員"},{"start":526.741,"end":543.663,"text":"謝謝 這其實我們1.25兆的國防預算當然在醫療的部分我們也是要放注在裡面因為除了第一線的戰鬥人員的話那在這些提供醫療協助這些創新科技上面對於商人的補助幫助我想也是非常重要的那所以我想這是一個很成功的案例那也感謝"},{"start":545.105,"end":568.946,"text":"這個三種有類似這樣的技術那敢於去把這些創新的技術弄在我們的商園上面我想這是非常重要的特別是對我們的鄉親來講是非常重要的再來我們請中科院今天有來嗎院長我來提院長簡單請教一下這個關於無人機接管的技術"},{"start":573.101,"end":589.854,"text":"院長請教一下無人機接管的技術是必備嗎就是說在我們現在接下來因為我看到我們在本月14日國土辦委託中科院在關鍵基礎設施無人機反制系統說明會裡面有提到把這個接管takeover列為籌建的必備功能"},{"start":592.078,"end":620.04,"text":"我聽到的聲音是因為我們有院長我都有邀請你就很多產業鏈的人都有來他們認為說takeover這個接管的這個技術性可能沒有直接反制不管是用物理適應的殺傷還是直接干擾上的殺傷來的快速那他們也提到這個科技的局限性看到問題就是說可能只能針對舊型或少數品牌有效如果把它列為必備功能的話會不會反而在我們籌貨無人機的反制無人機的能力上面反而會"},{"start":621.618,"end":649.865,"text":"減緩我們的這個能力的這個取樣因為我們如果又要這個又要且要全都要的話那意思就是說吃人就是分散掉了那對於硬殺也好干擾也好我想這是這個在Priority裡面是比較前面的可是如果你又要接管那你接管的這個無人機你又必須要想像它是不是本身是有爆裂物在裡面它的目的性情報性是以情報為主還是以故意要攻擊性為主這個我想請院長可不可以簡單來回應一下真的有必要把它認為必備嗎"},{"start":651.145,"end":679.24,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會澄清我們幫這麼多關鍵基礎設施去設定他採購的條件Takeover只是他功能之一並不是必要的條件所以不是必備的條件我們只是把所有的都列出來你可以按照你關鍵基礎設施的需求你自己去針對我們列在共計上說合格廠商的名單去選擇你要的功能他並不是必備條件所以院長我簡單這麼說所以他不是反無人機的必備功能"},{"start":679.56,"end":692.508,"text":"他可能只是針對特殊場域作為選配的能力的部分嗎但是這個只有我們幫國土辦定的規格這個是在這樣子他是列入選配的條件而已所以選配不是必備不是好 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謝謝"},{"start":13.615,"end":32.173,"text":"部長我先請教一下總統有宣布了在未來八年要規劃推出1.25兆的國防特別預算打造台灣之盾那這個如果從經濟或者產業面的角度來看的話部長怎麼看這對台灣的幫助"},{"start":33.604,"end":48.619,"text":"是 因為現在照我們的了解就是說國安部是有一些裡面的金額他會釋出給國內的廠商 市商或者是說委託國內廠商製造這個都有"},{"start":49.159,"end":67.427,"text":"那他們也估計一個數字出來當然將近有可能有4千他們規劃了4千億的產值創造9萬個就業機會這個經濟部也認同這樣的數字嗎也認可這樣的數字嗎我們大家有看過雙方有check過所以有對過了所以基本上會創造出這樣的產值跟這樣的就業機會對"},{"start":69.047,"end":92.809,"text":"那我直接請教除了當然這樣的經費除了跟採購以外的立即性的一些防衛性的不對稱的武力以外哪些的部分是會投入在我們國內的產業就是1.25兆裡面大概有多少的金額會投入在國內的產業讓我們產業的更提升同時間跟其他世界各國更多的合作跟研發的"},{"start":93.763,"end":119.586,"text":"因為至少就我們經濟部來講的話大概整個國防產業鎖定在幾個項目包括現在大家比較關心的是無人載具包括無人機無人船的部分那甚至於還有地面上的我們先從機器狗開始那這個都可能不管是軍事上用途也好那大概總額會是多少就經濟部的初估這樣的1.25兆裡面大概有多少會"},{"start":120.266,"end":132.718,"text":"落在直接投入到國內的產業因為這個對於台灣很多產業很重要 包括按照這個國防部的估算來講的話他這個4千億因為大部分就是從國內採購而來的這個4千億是創造出4千億的一個產值"},{"start":137.734,"end":152.631,"text":"所以部長的意思是1.25兆裡面有4千億大概是投入到國內的這一塊是這樣嗎大致上是這樣所以創造出9萬個就業機會所以部長的認知跟理解是這樣子的"},{"start":153.652,"end":173.912,"text":"OK好那我們來看因為其實這些部分其實對台灣的這些很重要特別是很多的涉及到船產涉及到我們的一些軍工的產業甚至很多各方面的產業也能夠藉這樣機會的時候更加的升級啦同時增加研發能量同時也能夠跟國際更加同步未來甚至有機會提升能力後更多的外銷"},{"start":174.873,"end":194.044,"text":"的市場打出去 我覺得這也是一個很重要的一個所以我也期盼這樣的預算能夠得到立法院支持不是只站在採購而已 其實它裡面還有涉及到很多是我們國內的自己提升我們本土的一些能量的部分 那我再具體的問裡面有涉及到無人機的部分 這個部分預計是要投入132億"},{"start":195.925,"end":209.665,"text":"然後看起來的話在幾位幾個包括台船 包括漢翔幾個大的都會有得到更多的一些訂單來投入到這樣的研發跟投入合作當中是嗎這個132億是我們補助跟支持這個"},{"start":211.474,"end":231.308,"text":"生產端他們有這樣的生產能力以後可以拿到國安部的訂單那個就是他的銷售額可以增加所以這個部分是由經濟部來挹注支持他們的接下來他們還可以再取得更多1.25兆的這樣的預算的規模來取得"},{"start":232.949,"end":258.339,"text":"我想這個對於中南部的很多的產業很重要啦不管是船廠或者一些我們的技術產業這個非常重要啦因為唯有我們讓我們的無人機無人船能夠有更強的實力這個也是現在國際的趨勢啦透過無人機無人船那台灣如果在這一方面能力更加強大的時候其實我們就有能力甚至於外銷出去啦漢翔在台中在高雄都有台船在高雄"},{"start":258.999,"end":273.719,"text":"那包括像航太跟船舶的部分所以投入27億這也是經濟部這邊協助來投入但是未來會有更多機會來接到整個國防部1.25兆的訂單對 有一部分是這樣甚至有一部分是可以拿到國外的訂單"},{"start":274.82,"end":288.873,"text":"就是說它的次系統比如說漢翔的部分它可能也跟Airbus可能有一些聯繫還有國外的廠商它也可以拿到有關於次系統或零組件的部分那也可以帶動漢翔它下面的供應鏈"},{"start":290.774,"end":311.883,"text":"這個對我們的航太產業對我們的造船產業都有相當大的幫助啦特別很多的幾乎都是座落在中南部啦甚至於像台船、中信等等這個都在高雄就變成它會有更強的能量去強化出研發這些無人載具的能力那無人載具能力以後將來它會形成我們的產業可以賣到世界各國去"},{"start":312.443,"end":326.919,"text":"中興跟隆德他們接到國外的這些比較中型的這個巡邏艦也是因為國內他拿到國內過去給他的訂單他有那樣的實際經驗以後而且實機表現很好那也才可以拿到國外的訂單"},{"start":327.6,"end":357.24,"text":"所以1.25兆這個台灣之盾的計畫不只是強化我們的防衛性不對稱的軍力同時間其實對我們的產業也會有相當大的一個幫助是的而且甚至可以讓我們更加升級對我們的傳產對我們的基礎產業也會有很大的幫助所以我們希望經濟部這一塊多支持那另外也多對外去做說明讓大家更清楚知道這個錢其實對國家是一個重要的支出它是一個投資它對於整個未來我們的這些國防產業會有更大的一個注意"},{"start":358.561,"end":379.818,"text":"那我再請教一下像機械狗像衛星的這個部分這個部分經濟部也會投入更多的資源去協助嗎是的 機械狗因為它現在算是一個雛形那工業院在幫忙做這個系統整合跟整機那我們希望到年底可以有階段性的一個成果那慢慢才優化它的一些能量跟能力出來"},{"start":380.859,"end":406.51,"text":"那衛星的部分是台南比較擅長的還是在這個地面接收的部分那不過現在我們也希望就是說那個衛星本體那個籌載的部分我們也可以趕快發展出來那有了衛星籌載跟地面接收以後它就可以做一些通訊上的設施那可以發展起來把這些solution事實上跟國際的供應鏈連結起來尤其是飛虹供應鏈的部分"},{"start":407.81,"end":436.588,"text":"對 裡面涉及到很多飛鴻工藝鏈那這也是台灣的機會當然全世界各國都在推動飛鴻工藝鏈的時候我們也是一個很好的機會可以去拿到這塊市場所以我也希望經濟部加大在這五大產業特別是後面的前幾個相對上比較成熟一些那後面的機械狗跟衛星其實我們有一些基礎在的那我們可以加大那個力道的話就有機會讓我們進入到國際的一些市場我也希望經濟部站在你們所屬上面加大"},{"start":437.048,"end":466.608,"text":"對於這個力道那特別這些很多都是在中南部啦對很多都在中南部我也希望讓這些特別是我們講到這一次的台美的關稅的問題的時候對於這些船產對這些技術產業他們有很多的憂心的時候那政府也透過這樣的機會給予他們更多的支持讓他們能夠在這一波的之中能夠再升級再轉型甚至再提升他們的研發能力再跟國際更多的接軌我認為這個都會是我們照顧到我們的船產照顧我們的技術產業很重要的一環"},{"start":466.988,"end":471.317,"text":"好不好请部长持续来大力推动了是的好谢谢部长谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af732cc01a3b8a9e428b28663f7a8bd11809e47d070529350c9d4bc19c9f2ed92f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:27:25 - 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接下來我們請張旭凱委員請做詢問請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":35.05,"end":62.993,"text":"莊委好 你們兩個好 我剛才在看你們在答詢立委的這個剛剛的時候 蒙點頭說會有好消息 很期待喔 好不好快定案了 希望在這個降關稅方面是真的會可以達成你們剛剛講的這個可是我要問更具體的 更具體的 很多民眾直接很關心的馬上定案了美國進口我們這邊的汽車啊這只是一個重要談判的議題嘛 對不對 總代表"},{"start":64.868,"end":86.136,"text":"關稅美國的這個車子進來會是低關稅是不是零關稅進來嗎報告委員 任何一個項目都是在我們關稅談判裡面但是因為還沒有達到最後的協議我們還是不便對委員報告到底有降到多少會降 降多少還不知道是不是"},{"start":87.228,"end":93.633,"text":"這個我還是表述 任何一個協議在沒有簽訂之前 任何一個項目都會被變動還有可能變動 可是有討論農民非常關心農產品"},{"start":101.898,"end":126.653,"text":"我想剛剛我報告美國確實是以貿易優先的時候以他的農產品的出口他要求各國都應該大幅度的要調降農產品跟工業產品關稅但是我們還是基於國家產業的利益糧食安全國民的健康都會爭取我們最有利的條件我們在爭取可是是會降的嗎例如說包括稻米的關稅會不會降或者量會不會增加"},{"start":127.773,"end":147.506,"text":"我剛有報告有些產業是基於國家產業的利益糧食的安全 國民的健康我們會力爭要求要保留我剛去美國國會外交會有一個很重要的內幕他們那邊很多的官員跟議員在問一個就是中油"},{"start":149.355,"end":167.817,"text":"對阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的採購跟這個投資那邊回來一個訊息第一個很重要非常非常重要就是川普總統非常注意他的進度第二個我得到消息是最近好像我們簽了意向書之後這個投資好像有點停擺是不是"},{"start":171.141,"end":197.867,"text":"目前有什麼進度嗎在談的這個過程是不是有點上次投了一項書上次我問了前任的經濟部長他說我們對美國的這個天然氣採購會增加大概兩倍目前所有我們對天然氣採購美國是上百分之十嘛現在會提高到百分之三十可是另外比較嚴重的比較重大要討論的是那些重大投資嘛一種管線對不對這些管線那美國那邊的消息是說好像最近有點一項書簽了之後有點停滯是吧"},{"start":198.738,"end":223.305,"text":"因為那個雙方還是持續在討論當中那因為他的這個Business Plan就是BPR他如果寫得更完整的話那我們就評估的會更具體我提醒兩個重點第一個川普我很注意這個事情第二個進度不要停下來要趕快去討論但第一個我們的優先是什麼價格天然氣的價格可以買多可是要降那第二個如果去投資的話"},{"start":224.411,"end":242.016,"text":"我剛有提嘛如果南韓跟日本都不要我們就不能去啦那如果真的例如說可能管線或者是挖這個挖的這個過程開採這個過程我們可以投資可是這個一定要一定的回收好不好進度要跟上好不好另外我來問一下那個總代表你們請問"},{"start":245.302,"end":265.183,"text":"那個最近很多人說可能是一個好消息就是河山的這個重啟可是這兩天發生一個 我跟你講要不要做環評的事情他們說環境部部長啊把球踢回來 踢皮球說要你先去做這個政策評估經濟部可能針對這個河山重啟做政策評估嗎"},{"start":266.565,"end":286.313,"text":"包委員經濟部施政或行政單位都是依法行政那我們為什麼可以和珊開始啟動自我評估那就是因為有核管法的修正以後辦法也改了我們有這樣的依據嘛那但是按照環評法目前的要求並沒有要求"},{"start":288.2,"end":307.809,"text":"這樣的情勢需要做重新環評並沒有這樣的要求但是如果將來環評法改變了那我們當然只能遵守那現在環境部直接先講說你做政策評估 照目前規定也不需要嗎理論上我們的了解 我們的解讀環評法是沒有這樣的要求不需要政策評估也不需要環境評估"},{"start":309.71,"end":334.298,"text":"好來 現在好消息是因為你27號你核定了台電的這個台電他的這個報告裡面他評估說核二核三具有再運轉的可行性嘛那3月份你這個報告要送到核安威去現在兩個很重要的事情現在很多人在講會不會是拖延好消息是說好像看起來到2027年大概一年半以後就有可能再重啟核三嘛可是很多人在問兩個問題"},{"start":335.64,"end":363.98,"text":"一個不要拖延太久不會不會 報告委員因為有兩個再運轉計畫提出來以後提給何安慧她會給我們看我們再運轉計畫去做另外一個是自主的安全檢查那個會持續並行不會拖延啦不會不要讓人家外界接著說是打假球所以進度要跟上我具體這樣提 來文森在現場你們現在做這個自主的安全"},{"start":366.07,"end":390.048,"text":"對不對 只要一年半時間現在很多專家寫者提了一個非常重要的包括艾光中 艾教授他們都提了你們這個自主的這個安檢是不是就依照美國NRC所規定的LRA就是所謂的執照更新評估報告做的我們用的都是美國標準嘛 對不對跟委員報告 全世界的核安規則都是依照當國自己所建立的標準"},{"start":392.025,"end":418.974,"text":"我們用的是美國標準嘛對不對我要說我們follow的是我們核安會提出來的標準那這一次提出來因為我們是重啟所以我們除了這些相關的規範就是研議的標準之外還有一些重啟相關的工作那核安會多了一個要求就是我們必須提再運轉計畫就是你機組是不是能夠恢復到"},{"start":419.874,"end":436.697,"text":"執照結束前的狀況所以它對於人員編制機組有沒有被拆除等等相關的計畫我們必須做說明這是第一段第二段它在後段的安全檢查也提出了新增的一些規範包括輻射相關的議題以及耐震"},{"start":437.558,"end":456.44,"text":"的議題等等這兩個我想說您都有把它給mark出來你講應該都是美國那個LLR他們本身的規範裡面那個他們的規範是前面那三項就是基本上基礎設備的老化相關的一些安全分析它有不同因為台灣是license到齊"},{"start":458.382,"end":474.401,"text":"所以核安會在訂定標準的時候增加了一些項目如果有符合他們的委員我可不可以跟您簡單報告一個Benchmark就是核一的自我安全檢查事實上是做過的核一的自我安全檢查做了四年"},{"start":475.811,"end":501.93,"text":"好我就直接跟您報告就是說我們最近這一段時間一直聽到說我們要故意拖延等等我其實完全不知道說因為講的都是專家可是合一的自我安全檢查就做了四年我們現在提出來的時間是比這個還短的所以我完全無法理解說為什麼會講說台電要故意拖延無法理解我們可以很具體的很具體的盡快往這個時程往前"},{"start":502.29,"end":527.242,"text":"所以我剛講了嘛 你如果用LRA這個標準聽我講完 你不要急著講話好不好 時間有限第一個 你如果照美國這套標準你本來2025年開始就有持續在做嘛就像你剛講的前三項那你就前三項先按照那個標準就不要再讓那個時間往後延了另外 等一下喔另外李秉立教授做了一個圖表 來給大家看一下你剛講的那個 講說前三項ABC這個都是有的"},{"start":528.519,"end":556.931,"text":"事項啊李敏李教授特別提這個觀點既然你河山要重啟要經過這麼多的這個過程他說很多地方已經做過了或者可以同時做的可以平行做的就盡快好不好你參考一下你給我一個報告就好你現在不用急著打你回去看這幾項有很多專家協議認為可以平行做不要做完A再做B再做C他可以平行做就盡快時間就可以盡快另外呢你看一下裡面一個最關鍵的就是E燃料棒的採購"},{"start":559.056,"end":585.538,"text":"燃料棒採購如果整個全部都做完以後再去買就太晚了 我給你看一個例子美國的這個帕西迪斯帕西迪斯最近美國政府提供他15.2億的美金貸款後來企業裡面怎麼訂就是說你包括訂過新的燃料棒都要先買我們當初核四也是先買 對不對所以包括燃料棒可以考慮一下 好不好"},{"start":586.991,"end":608.051,"text":"那個跟委員報告現在舉的國外的例子基本上很多剪一段一段在講人家的計畫人家這一個電廠是之前已經開始做已經做完LRA審查了後來他沒有繼續研議後來想一想又想說好那我來研議好了那個完全就是沒有相同基礎的事"},{"start":609.264,"end":626.714,"text":"拿來做比喻我們是沒有辦法這個完全是不同的事情怎麼可能是來比較我希望說委員我們要提這些案例都OK但是把它的基礎跟前提拿出來做過對比就是基礎跟前提要一樣才能夠去講這件事但是如果您提到沒有沒有沒有你剛剛講的我這樣說"},{"start":631.337,"end":643.981,"text":"我先說每個項目平行調查我們本來就在平行調查他說你這個每個步驟都要做對不對有沒有可能如果可以平行先做的先做第二個如果是LRA你剛講的你2005年某部已經做的就盡快"},{"start":647.396,"end":673.715,"text":"這個很理性啊 怎麼會有任何問題平行調查本來就是平行調查對就是平行進行啦你們平行在做嘛所以OK啦 這是OK的啦現在因為我們極力在發展這個半導體跟AI 你連回答都要來啦那你每年 經濟部也評估過每年我們的電力現在都成長可能3到5%我們現在急需要電嘛而且要低廉 便利的電嘛所以核三核二 你們既然有好消息了就儘快好不好不要讓外面接著說打假酒或者拖延好不好 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以前會嗎 簡單回答就好如果沒有你們加急的這個新的做法以後其實他之前有這樣的狀況嗎所以我們現在要來檢討啊不是 你請先說明嘛報委員 當初我們會討量戰鬥部隊加急你告訴我們 還沒有實施之前你現在的做法他有沒有發生這樣的問題 有或沒有有或沒有"},{"start":365.461,"end":368.224,"text":"有或沒有你很清楚有或沒有有或沒有回答這個就好以戰鬥部隊來講在我們這次加薪以後的確是有這樣子的狀況產生部長我要說的就是這個部分我們現在也在思考因為就是時空環境的改變謝謝"},{"start":385.444,"end":388.186,"text":"我剛剛要問的已經問完了部長因為我們的做法其實你有把它分類所以會造成這樣的狀況所以在很多我剛剛提到的有很多他們也覺得他們的業務量或者現在的整個的調整我們應該要讓他們有一致性因為我們要的是讓他一致的增加"},{"start":408.283,"end":411.965,"text":"我們所有的國軍當我們國防預算增加暴增這麼多的情況之下從3000億6000億到明年的一兆以上甚至還有很多的特別預算這都需要人力不管來操作武器裝備也好或者相關的業務量也好都需要人力當你在這些不斷的增加的情況之下你卻不願意給更高的這樣的一個"},{"start":433.217,"end":437.06,"text":"薪資我覺得這是不合理的而且會打擊他們士氣這是我們要強調的那因為時間的關係因為有機會我們會重新再安排做這樣的報告另外我想要請教的就是我們最近看到海昆號"},{"start":449.127,"end":456.292,"text":"他的新聞非常的多那剛剛其實徐委員也有特別提到我們現在在做第五次的這個扶航的測試我想要請教剛剛有提到因為船錨是船舶在緊急狀況底下的保密設備當機械故障停電操作失效的時候錨是最後能阻止船漂流的方式"},{"start":475.666,"end":479.089,"text":"船如果沒有錨 船在裝備故障的時候沒有辦法操作的時候 它就會陷入危險因此船錨是船舶重要的航岸裝備沒有裝海錨的船是不能出港的潛艦的錨跟水面艦的錨的功能是不一樣的基本上錨可以理解是船的最後煞車裝置"},{"start":501.653,"end":515.559,"text":"全世界的船舶法規 全世界的它含民船跟軍艦都將毛列入重要的航岸裝備沒有裝毛的船是不能出港的我想要請教因為這個就"},{"start":518.023,"end":533.719,"text":"潛艦不管你們現在對外說他到底重不重要你們已經設計進去了那他發生故障他現在在調教當中為什麼不等他裝好以後我們才做這樣的一個測試你有差這樣的時間嗎"},{"start":537.614,"end":542.336,"text":"因為我們口口聲聲都說要注重安全嘛你說這個不重要今天我們今天如果在一個遊艇上面每一個都是游泳高手他要出海去釣魚我們那個艇需不需要有救生裝備你只要出海就有危險我們剛剛講的就是緊急狀況為什麼他毛的重要性在這裡那你們可以對外說這個毛不重要潛艦沒有毛也沒有關係"},{"start":568.015,"end":570.338,"text":"這是對的嗎跟委員報告這個"},{"start":574.113,"end":578.055,"text":"軍艦它就是一個軍規那軍規它的備用系統會比商規的這個全世界的船舶法規含民船跟軍艦都將毛列入重要的航岸裝備沒有裝毛的船是不能出港的剛剛部長也提到如果我們這個調教完成以後你到時候下毛跟起毛的測試都還會另外做所以可見它就是必要的"},{"start":601.548,"end":604.251,"text":"當你還沒有調教完成你還沒有故障恢復之前為什麼要急著現在去做我們現在要講的是這樣因為你12月就回來了你們剛剛說12月就回來可以裝上那既然是這樣你就等他裝上以後你們再去做測試啊你們不是說安全最重要嗎今天如果一個很會游泳的游泳高手"},{"start":623.428,"end":627.531,"text":"他到海裡面他有時候腳抽筋還不是會發生意外很多潛水高手他在潛水的時候他可能在那裡潛過至少百千次以上還不是會發生意外今天我們還在建造階段你們都知道是建造階段所有的測試都還沒有經過非常完整的測試情況底下你說毛沒有關係 是沒有關係嗎"},{"start":652.386,"end":662.75,"text":"跟委員報告他還是其實就一個毛他就是一個備援的替代方案中間他是一個重要的航安裝備今天你即使旁邊有什麼無人艇或者其他你說他的技學什麼都判定說這個沒有問題沒有問題為什麼我們的扶航測試會經過那麼多次他就是有問題那你當你發生問題的時候你的毛就是有他的功能在所以我們現在只是要提醒"},{"start":681.596,"end":684.698,"text":"我們一直口口聲聲說安全非常重要今天為什麼有人會把它爆料出來就是他們覺得不安全啊所以這個部分國防部應該要比台船更審慎除非是我們下令要求他必須在這個時間點所以這個部分我們先提出來做探討"},{"start":699.386,"end":713.818,"text":"也希望未來不要再發生這樣的事情每一個步驟都是必要的今天會游泳的人不需要泳圈因為他在游泳的時候不會用泳圈可是泳圈就是必須存在在那裡他發生狀況的時候他會用上所以我們希望我們用審慎的態度不要告訴我們說我們注重安全可是當有什麼問題發生的時候又說那個不重要那不重要你幹嘛設計啊"},{"start":725.347,"end":727.909,"text":"所以你幹嘛回來裝好以後你還要做測試這是我們要提醒的另外我在這裡本市也要請海軍提供相關的證明資料因為之前有要求提供我們主機這樣子的一個一些公文的函附可是我們看裡面其實還是有很多問題點而且避重就輕"},{"start":748.393,"end":755.298,"text":"因為潛艦的他所用的柴油主機在呼吸管航行的使用情境下面他的排煙口會被水包覆我想這個可能我們海軍也非常清楚這個部分嘛對不對所以我們在排煙他要克服這個壓力所產生的額外的被壓這個部分我們希望包括國防部還有包括我們海軍提供相關的資料最大可容許排煙被壓值"},{"start":778.954,"end":781.576,"text":"來判斷排煙是否能夠克服海水的被壓這是第一個第二個在高被壓的情況之下才有引擎能夠維持而定功率轉速不衰退的測試證明文件第三個排煙壓力跟轉速測試是否符合規範"},{"start":797.99,"end":800.833,"text":"它符合哪一個規範而且它測試的標準值是什麼我們請提供這三項的一個資料因為我們這一次主機你們在回覆的時候是說由法國驗傳協會這是屬於民間的第三方的檢驗認證機構對不對"},{"start":815.926,"end":819.271,"text":"那我們引用BV就是我們法國驗傳協會進行傳用柴油機的這個見證其實算是合理然後在也符合國際的慣例可是法國驗傳協會他只能確認傳用通用的要求"},{"start":834.349,"end":837.03,"text":"他並沒有潛艦專用的軍規驗證能力所以如果採購規範沒有明確的列入潛艦的排煙備壓還有通氣管阻力煮水閥的順壓還有靜音以及抗震等抗震等需求只憑FTA跟FAT跟BV的認證我想這是不足的那這個部分"},{"start":858.92,"end":878.673,"text":"我們為什麼會特別要求說要提供相關的資料海軍在準備提供兩個禮拜之內提供好不好這一個因為我們希望可以證明這個主機是符合潛艦專用的操作條件的另外還有這一台小引擎它曾經用在哪個國家的潛艦"},{"start":881.42,"end":883.723,"text":"是否也可以提供因為如果有我們請提供不管你要用機密的方式或其他方式如果沒有那他過往的經歷沒有的話我們為什麼會選擇這樣的引擎"},{"start":897.499,"end":921.654,"text":"請提供 一併提供相關的資料好不好是好 兩個禮拜之內 謝謝部長我們也希望是由您看過的因為有一些的認證我想我們當時在預算的編列的時候還特別請了非常多的法律的編了很多的法律律師的一個費用就這些部分不管是我們很多的合約或者像這樣的認證標準我們希望都經過專業的認證然後可以提供我們提供給本委員會"},{"start":927.678,"end":942.053,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想過去海軍在認可之下我們都已經有跟委員做過報告那要在保密的情況之下也有請委員看看是不是要到高雄那邊去所以我想這個都一定有安排"},{"start":942.133,"end":944.975,"text":"我想我們還是用正式的文字會比較好因為有時候我們看我們看不出來啊你像船看起來就是船我沒有辦法用看的去判斷那這個部分因為我相信其實不管是部長也好海軍也好相關的人員也好只要你們敢認證我們就敢相信"},{"start":963.727,"end":977.984,"text":"可是你們必須要很明確的讓我們知道這個就是一個完整的認證而不是你們用了很多的文字敘述然後我們還是看不出來那到底是什麼我們剛剛要求提供的再請確實提供謝謝 不好意思耽誤時間"}]}},{"id":"166017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af70319bbd163054986b28663f7a8bd11809e47d070529350c9fe46eb304f211c515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:18:40 - 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謝謝謝主席我想請一下國發會葉俊賢主委然後經濟部工部長還有我們經貿談判辦公室的談判總代表楊珍妮謝謝好 我們請上位"},{"start":34.153,"end":43.439,"text":"首先我想先請教一下國發會主委這幾年就是台灣已經持續58個月生不如死就是新適合人口非常的少"},{"start":44.212,"end":71.958,"text":"那各個產業都在缺工我想請教一下那個國發主委你知道現在缺工的情況有多嚴重嗎缺工的情況的話我這邊有一個表大致上就是說以那一個就是休息停班的這個部分來講的話比例比較高的會是在台中市這個部分OK 簡單回憶就好啦缺工情況應該肯定很嚴重對不對各行業幾乎都缺工對不對"},{"start":73.018,"end":94.073,"text":"有一些啦 但可能沒有委員講的那麼嚴重你覺得那個物流業嚴不嚴重製造業嚴不嚴重 服務業嚴不嚴重你覺得哪個產業不嚴重你告訴我都很重要哪個產業不缺工你告訴我都缺工嘛對不對高科技缺不缺工"},{"start":95.526,"end":110.412,"text":"也缺工嘛對不對高科技也缺工嘛對不對好那我想請教一下因為之前就是包括我們的行政院副院長也提到了就是說我們要幫川普來蓋一個美版竹科"},{"start":111.192,"end":130.428,"text":"然後我們副總統也特別提到了這個台灣的半導體供應鏈要一起赴美我想請教一下我們經濟部長就是整個的美版軸科這件事情我知道你們回過很多次然後你們都否認這件事情可是整個產業鏈要過去這件事情是確定的對不對"},{"start":131.94,"end":158.449,"text":"還是要看企業界他們的一些想法我剛才還是提到就是說第一個產業要對外投資一定是要貼近客戶有訂單然後而且會賺錢如果還達不到那樣的經濟規模他是不會出去的所以說其實整個半導體產業鏈其實非常的多台積電一家的協力廠商超過200家200家以上的一個供應鏈那現在之前在前部長的時候他那時候去參加那個"},{"start":159.949,"end":179.033,"text":"美國的一個商場的時候有將近200家的台灣廠商一起到美國去那他們也都表示要跟著台積電過去這件事情我想經濟部長應該不會不了解對不對那我想請教一下我們有沒有對於整個半導體產業 另外一對台灣整體經濟跟整個產業還有國安風險的一個評估"},{"start":187.361,"end":212.246,"text":"是有一個評估就是說他這樣的投資到底會對我們的影響是怎麼樣但是我們就是說為什麼要求廠商都要投資一定要國內的有相對投資那我問一下你講到這個點你剛也特別回應一件事情就是說台積電承諾到美國去投資1650億的時候他也會相應的在台灣擴大投資你剛這麼回應對不對"},{"start":214.486,"end":234.076,"text":"超過這個金額我想請教一下我們台積電到美國去投資預計要分幾年投資完他早沒有時間沒有壓時間不過他大概是應該是兩年或兩年多一個廠這樣子的速度所以預計大概會幾年的時候把這堆筆承諾投資完"},{"start":240.273,"end":256.664,"text":"如果啦 如果需求還是持續強烈的話那他會持續的蓋嘛 平均兩年蓋一個廠的話那他會蓋六個廠嘛 差不多所以你說要十幾年才會投資完這1650億美元是 是是喔 OK 好在戰場的速度情況之下 對"},{"start":257.384,"end":280.1,"text":"但是在台灣的速度就很快因為台灣的蓋廠速度非常非常快好 我這邊要特別講一下因為按照台積電法說會的資料的時候今年台積電在台灣的一個投資金額大概在420億美元在台灣的投資那麼表示說台積電在台灣的投資占整個台灣2024年明目GDP7960億美元大概要占5%多"},{"start":287.224,"end":305.992,"text":"這個金額其實非常的龐大所以台積電對於整個台灣的一個經濟成長肯定是具有非常帶動龍頭的一個效果部長這沒有問題吧 是的那我們也看到一個情況就是說現在整個竹科 中科 南科它的一個"},{"start":307.494,"end":332.974,"text":"半導體的一個產業 機體電路的一個產值的時候整體來說佔了79.99% 將近八成台灣這個部分所以你看台積電對整個台灣的整個整體經濟的帶動有多大的一個影響所以我這邊的時候要特別提到一個事情就是說之前美國商務部長盧特尼克他特別提到說我們高階製程要跟"},{"start":333.755,"end":358.729,"text":"台灣跟美國五五分這件事情的時候我們經濟部這邊有沒有掌控到一些相關的訊息如果台灣的產能跟美國的產能要一樣高階製程五五分那是不可能的從現在的投資速度就可以看得出來落差越差越大所以說我這邊我要特別提到這整個台積電"},{"start":360.49,"end":382.655,"text":"的高階製程 占它全球的一個市占率到92%而且台積電高階製程占它台積電整體營收的74%所以我們認為政府一定有責任要把台積電這邊在台灣這邊的鞏固更好更明確 這沒有問題啦OK那我最後我想請教一下那個楊代表"},{"start":384.059,"end":403.771,"text":"就是最近最近那個有一個路透社有一個新聞說台美正在洽談培訓美國高科技人才的協議有沒有這件事情我想剛剛那個葉主委已經表明了我們沒有談到這一點也沒有這個協議所以路透社這個新聞是假訊息"},{"start":405.086,"end":417.362,"text":"那是他自己的報導我們沒有談這個你們沒有談這個訊息可是路透社報導的狀態所以你這邊覺得說路透社這個新聞是假訊息對不對報導不真實不是假訊息是什麼"},{"start":418.753,"end":443.558,"text":"還是說因為我發現我們的政府很多談判的一個資料都落後在整個媒體之外包括我們那時候20%的那個疊加的部分我們政府承認的速度也在媒體之後很多事情都是後來媒體報導之後我們後來證明媒體講的好像有這麼一回事那麼我想了解就是我們對於美國要求我們培訓美國高科技人這個協議沒有在談這件事情"},{"start":446.138,"end":464.324,"text":"是的沒有沒有談這件事情那我為什麼特別講這個狀態因為剛剛部長這邊有提到說就是很多台積電的工程師過去然後後來也會回來可是我這邊要特別講到一個情況是很多情況人才如果過去之後是回不來的所以"},{"start":465.965,"end":487.067,"text":"代表這邊如果說很明確跟我們講說路透社這個新聞是假訊息因為我們根本沒有在談這件事情那我再把這邊因為這個是路透社的一個英文版的原文他很清楚的這邊提到他說川普他希望說一些外籍勞工能夠扮演更積極的角色這邊的外籍勞工指的是台灣的勞工那如果說"},{"start":488.7,"end":515.556,"text":"代表覺得說這樣子的一個訊息是不真實的訊息的時候那我們是不是要做一個公開的一個澄清針對路透社這樣的新聞做一個澄清代表報告委員其實這邊報導最後他也引用到我們企業自己的內部訓練所以我覺得我們不去幫這個路透社他做任何的解釋但是我們有澄清這個不是在我們談判的條件之一OK"},{"start":516.229,"end":536.318,"text":"那因為說在整個談判過程當中我們看到很多情況就政府的公開資料一直都在整個媒體之後所以我們也希望就是所有的一個部分剛剛有委員提到說現在已經台美已經進到換聞的一個階段有到這個階段嗎 代表"},{"start":537.668,"end":565.647,"text":"我們進到最後的談判階段但是所有的底線要確定之後才能對外到換文的階段了嗎是說相關的條件在換文不是叫換文是在交換文件表示這些承諾就條件在交換就對了還不是正式的一個文本在交換對不對不是 有關相關技術的議題有一些條件我們要澄清他也要了解在交換這些文件"},{"start":566.291,"end":584.007,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那我們希望整個台美的談判的時候能夠可以公開的部分的時候盡量讓老百姓知道至少要讓國會知道然後我覺得不要有很多的訊息像路透社這個新聞出來之後的時候其實讓整個科學園區很多的產業"},{"start":585.248,"end":601.718,"text":"他們很擔心 他們擔心台積電如果很多人到美國去幫美國培訓人才的時候那台積電會吸引其他台灣其他相關公司的人往台積電流動那台積電就會變成一個像美國書寫人才的一個供應站"},{"start":602.358,"end":619.754,"text":"那整個台灣的整個高科技的人才圈又會產生一個大地震所以我們希望這樣的事情不要發生然後工部長剛剛提到說我們對於整個半導體產業到美國去對整個台灣產業經濟國安的這種評估的時候之後可不可以本席一個很完整的資料謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af748c1aee08968c20a96d3b95029a3bab617e9c371ce254979849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:20:38 - 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李委員部長好 辛苦了賴總統在11月26號有召開一個守護民主台灣的國安行動方案然後特別提到說這個2027年中國以2027年為節點作為推進武統台灣的各項準備還有提醒 就是說這個2027年可能是一個節點"},{"start":35.908,"end":62.816,"text":"然後呢這個其實2027年呢也不是賴總統他先講出來的那其實在這個2021年的時候當時候的這個美軍的印太司令部的司令戴維生他就提到說2020年的3月他說台灣是中國野心的一部分那這樣的威脅在未來的10年甚至6年就是2027年的時候就可能會顯現所以那時候大家就給這個戴維生"},{"start":63.516,"end":88.959,"text":"他所講這句話 稱之為戴維森的窗口接下來從2021年3月到2025年的3月 這幾年來包含印太司令 美軍的參謀首長聯席會議中央情報局 CIA等等 都有提到說中國尋求在2027年就具備侵台的能力"},{"start":90.56,"end":111.305,"text":"做好了一個供台的一個準備因為2027年是中國解放軍的建軍百年然後呢 我們今年的這個漢光41號演習我們今年的漢光41號演習是不是也是這個以2027年中共可能犯台來作為一個演習的一個演練"},{"start":112.723,"end":133.515,"text":"我們是以在2027年以前達成這個我們的各部隊的一個高戰備的能力作為目標那所以今年的這個漢光40號演習的確也是以2027年為這個中共揮帶的辛勞還有可能犯台的一個行動所做的一個準備嗎"},{"start":134.97,"end":156.123,"text":"我們在做各項的訓練操演的時候我們現在都是以2027年達到高戰備能力為目標那這個意思就是說我們在面對任何的敵情威脅或接獲任何的命令的時候能夠在最短的時間內全面達到可以立即出動作戰的一個備戰狀態所以部長是認為說2027年是一個節點就對了"},{"start":163.257,"end":169.702,"text":"我們作為一個準備要有準備的一個觀念我們要以2027年達到高戰備能力"},{"start":172.22,"end":197.007,"text":"那所謂的高戰備能力是指高戰備能力就是剛剛講的就是各級部隊要依照這個敵情威脅或接獲任何的作戰命令的時候能夠在最短的時間內全面達到可立即出動作戰的一個備戰狀態那我們會透由這一個相關的立即備戰操演跟聯合作戰防禦操演等等各方面的一個實戰化的聯合作戰訓練來確保我們整個聯合作戰計畫"},{"start":200.768,"end":217.539,"text":"可以週圓可行那同時也要結合我們相關籌貨的縣市裝備然後還有兵力結構調整然後達到一個快速形成集戰力的那我就請教部長那其實這一個函我們立法院剛剛通過了這個國土安全韌性"},{"start":218.74,"end":243.598,"text":"有國防部的預算 1151億之前還有兩項正在執行中的預算一個是新式戰機的採購一個是海空戰力提升的計畫採購這兩項的特別預算也都有提到 因為這兩項的特別預算在執行當中的戰機 海空戰力提升都是到明年結束 對不對"},{"start":246.152,"end":266.983,"text":"呃 對 應該是都是到明年結束嘛因為都是到115年結束嘛今次再基是109到115然後呢 海空戰力提升計畫是115到111到115所以明年 明年總共如果順利啦這個1.25兆的這個預算有過關的話明年有四項軍事特別預算在執行嘛 對不對"},{"start":269.268,"end":291.646,"text":"明年的話 至少有三樣的嘛 光部的部分如果這一次的特別預算 這個也通過的話會有四個特別預算有四項嘛 對不對 因為剛通過一下嘛 國土安全任性的嘛兩項在這些當中的嘛 對不對 就是海控戰略還有先是這個戰機嘛然後還有一項是這個還不知道能不能過的 就是1.25兆的 剛提出來"},{"start":292.126,"end":309.271,"text":"那我再請教一下部長因為其實大家也很關心就是說未來如果這個1.25招能夠過的話我們採購的武器要能夠及時到位嗎那我先問為什麼是編八年因為過去我們這個軍事特別預算大概都是編四到六年那為什麼這次是編到八年"},{"start":313.054,"end":338.903,"text":"這個我們考量有三個因素第一個是我們目前的敵情威脅的部分第二個部分是針對這個敵情威脅我們所需要在這個時間比較短的時間之內獲得的有哪些第三個部分是有一些針對中期性的防衛韌性的部分需要能量建構的部分我們大概也做一個統整所以在這個部分我們包含了不對稱戰力跟防衛韌性的兩個部分"},{"start":339.783,"end":364.642,"text":"我們整個規劃起來就是以8年為基對 那我的意思是說如果以2027年為一個節點的話那我們的這些不對稱的這些戰力的採購不是應該更早獲得嗎比如說在4年的時間就應該要獲得了嘛不是拉到8年嗎包委員 針對2027的這個部分我們主要以整件不對稱戰力為主這個部分是滿足敵情威脅抖聲的這個需求"},{"start":365.869,"end":386.607,"text":"對 那我的意思是說你們也是拉長到8年 對但是我們所要的這個不對稱的這個作戰的這個能力應該是未來這兩三年就應該要有了嘛 對不對應該是說2027年以前我們都是以執行中的一個大部分是以執行中的暗巷來作為我們具備基本不對稱作戰能力的一個"},{"start":388.969,"end":411.466,"text":"希望在2027年之前就能夠形成我們現在已經透過公務預算還有剛剛您提到的兩個特別預算等等讓我們來具備這個基本的這個兩年的時間能夠買到這些我們所需要的我們現在已經在執行中的包括應用我們年度預算還有特別預算那我講的是"},{"start":412.387,"end":435.529,"text":"那現在下來的是更進一步的來去形成提高一個我們更多於巨子的這個完備我們多於巨的能力來整個再大幅提升這個我們整體的防衛作戰能力那所以應該是在前 比如說3到4年應該是這些不對稱作戰武器的採購的高峰吧是"},{"start":436.555,"end":461.498,"text":"應該是吧 因為不可能是拉到八年拉到八年去了 不可能嘛應該是為了這三四年的時間吧我們應該還要看我們整個籌貨的一個期程是剛剛提到的我們的需求 美軍能夠提供的應該是這樣去談吧還有自製的還有自製的那我再問一個 其實大家應該有關心的事情就是我們的F-16V的戰機"},{"start":463.191,"end":468.358,"text":"那因為現在已經12月了那因為他這個特別預算是到明年那請問一下部長那這66家的這個戰機何時能夠到台灣來"},{"start":475.595,"end":501.167,"text":"因為這有關係到未來的大家審特別預算的時候都會問到是 鮑委員這個F16的這個部分我們已經和美國政府在催促洛馬公司加速產製那後面當然要配合他整個測試進度的進行飛機組合應該渴望在明年完成所有機隊可是測試的部分為了確保他的安全我們目前還是採取比較審慎的態度去走"},{"start":501.647,"end":529.366,"text":"那這個部分 包委您可以看到我們其他公務預算的項目事實上都已經在趕上進度了包括海馬士M1A2T跟兩型的反戰車飛彈NASAMS等都已經回到正常的進度來交那我們相關未來的項目也會跟我們所要採購的方向包含商購軍購跟偽製的這個部分我們會確定它的產製期程能夠滿足我們的需求我們才會來做那所以66架再接是"},{"start":530.327,"end":558.524,"text":"明年能夠順利交機嗎包委員 我是空氣商務長跟您做一個簡單的報告這個前面的委員諮詢過了我們也都知道F16交機確實有非常嚴重的這個延宕但是我們從這個今年的會期開始也不斷的在催促也不斷的一直在加強事實上從上個會期的提報到現在我們的產線從50架已經進步到54架進度到54架還在持續的在增加當中所以說已經做到54架了嗎"},{"start":559.845,"end":587.172,"text":"進到場裡面開始組裝的有54架了我們在10月份的時候是50架那現在已經有開始進到場裡面去他一定是有一定的進度他才能再有一架新飛機進去所以說這個進度其實是一直在趕工那這個部分我們也跟美國政府提出非常嚴重的關切那美國政府也跟落馬還有我們包含跟落馬直接開會這個進度都一直在進行那包含了飛勢的部分那這個部分也提早到今這個月會開始來進行好"},{"start":588.872,"end":614.011,"text":"主席我最後一個問題這個是剛剛媒體所寫的就是說針對中國目前制裁日本但是似乎沒有達到一個效果所以有可能國安單位的一個官員他來講就是說有可能是在12月13號南京大屠殺的國家公見日 中國他們會發動一個聯合利建西的演習"},{"start":615.301,"end":638.792,"text":"這個請問一下部長有聽到類似的這一個說法嗎我想國防部立場還是會根據相關的這些預警徵狗我們會來充分的掌握然後相關的這些可能的動態所以我們還是以預警相關的徵狗來作為判斷的基礎那這個禮拜有任何比較不尋常的一些徵狗嗎我想這個部分可能我們如果委員要了解我們另外再找"},{"start":639.392,"end":661.434,"text":"跟委員做說明所以是有可能中國會在旗虎南下的情況之下會藉機發揮嗎我們不會做任何的一個臆測我們只會依據相關的預警政法來做判斷那有做好相關的準備嗎我們都會根據預警相關政法來做好這個相關的因應的準備好 謝謝部長 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經濟部長好 請兩位先請教一下談判代表 部長好我先問一下代表因為我們現在很多訊息我們都是從外媒得知然後政府機關雖然有來報告但是講的都非常有限我先問一個問題如果到時候代表談出來的結果國人不接受民意反彈很大 立法院也不通過那結果會怎麼樣"},{"start":40.268,"end":69.971,"text":"我想這個問題我們最重要是我們談判的結果是對國人是好的對產業是好的那是你認為嘛你是要接受監督你當然說自己好啊如果說大家不覺得好如果輿論沸騰反對那來得及嗎如果我們跟美方達成一個共識之後這個會馬上跟國會報告但是如果我們不接受的話美方他可能就要回到原來的稅率了"},{"start":70.761,"end":90.815,"text":"就是說你談完之後你會來國會報告然後如果國會覺得你談得太爛了然後民意也覺得非常爛然後大家就會說不行然後你就會跟美國講說我們不接受然後重談是這樣嗎我想美國對這一方面很在意因為這一次他的目標就是要降低他們回答我的問題啦"},{"start":93.3,"end":113.247,"text":"談判的結果是他要給我們對等降稅然後呢不疊加當然是對等不要繞圈圈啦因為我們現在當然是希望說談到關稅低嘛對不對最好15如果是15%就跟日本韓國歐盟都一樣嘛然後不要疊加嘛但是是看我們要付出什麼代價嘛那如果我們付出的代價"},{"start":116.548,"end":136.333,"text":"讓輿論認為說這個代價好像超過我們的想像那大家不接受那來得及嗎你會再去跟美國講重談嗎我是問一個這個問題啦程序性的問題啦程序性的問題在這一方面就是會重談嘛美國是要我們執行他才會給我們剛剛講的優惠性的這些代價所以就變成說你變白談了再去重談嘛"},{"start":136.693,"end":161.256,"text":"否則他就不會執行了嘛就是這樣嘛所以我為什麼問這個問題呢就是因為其他國家都會適當揭露嘛因為他們會一方面了解民意的看法一方面跟美方談判有的時候國內的意見有成為對外談判的一個籌碼但我們台灣這邊就完全避而不談所以就是一翻兩瞪眼要嘛就是跟國會或是民眾講說你就接受不然就要重談要嘛就是你要嘛就是說這個"},{"start":162.637,"end":179.276,"text":"不然怎麼辦我覺得這個其實是蠻不負責的這跟之前民進黨自己要求什麼兩岸談服貿一定要公平公正公開啊什麼那個是背道而馳的啦那沒關係我們就先姑且相信你們談的是國人會接受"},{"start":179.716,"end":204.318,"text":"那現在一直講說一個台灣模式啦我覺得你們講得很具體但大家聽得非常模糊我想請教一下按照日本韓國他們的做法是說要降關稅可以你日本韓國你要投資我多少金額或者是要跟我採購多少金額是這樣的模式但台灣不是嘛你們意思這樣對不對所以我們是用G2G跟他們的模式不一樣他們是要看採購多少投資多少才能決定降關稅我們不用是這個意思嗎"},{"start":206.445,"end":234.644,"text":"我們的模式是依照我們在整個談判裡面的最佳的模式就是希望得到最好也協助業者不要講空話啦不要講空話我一直想什麼叫台灣模式嘛日本韓國是說投資多少金額比如說日本投資5500億金額或者是採購多少東西換得關稅下降嘛那我們不是用這樣的模式嘛我們是用比如說什麼G2G啊協助美國的什麼產業形成聚落我們是用這種模式嘛對吧"},{"start":235.504,"end":248.915,"text":"是吧 部長是這樣嗎那為什麼我們採購的都不算我們不是有軍購嗎韓國也把軍購納入就是降低關稅的籌碼之一歐盟也把軍購納入降低關稅的籌碼之一為什麼台灣都不能納入"},{"start":250.489,"end":274.468,"text":"我們在談判裡面有商業機會包括投資及採購但是我看其他國家有些大部分也是沒有把軍購放在他的有啊歐盟就有啊韓國也有啊為什麼我們不拿這個第二個具體問一下台灣模式是說我們廠商到美國去去投資形成產業聚落像科學園區那樣請問一下你承諾美國多少產值承諾美國多少產值"},{"start":280.254,"end":306.409,"text":"這是部長回答還是代表回答沒有這樣的承諾沒有承諾產值所以我們到時候講一講跟他們說不好意思喔我們的廠商都沒有要過去喔零產值美國也接受嗎不是我們當然有跟企業界有互相的盤點跟溝通企業界有這樣的意願以後我們才協助他們嘛他們如果完全沒有意願如果我們完全沒有意願所以到時候假設我們的廠商都沒有意願"},{"start":307.189,"end":330.277,"text":"然後都沒有過去 美國接受嗎沒有 我們已經有做過溝通了所以現在是 你現在計算是多少產值要過去多少要過去這個 等談判完以後再向委員報告喔 又是談判完 不是你這個什麼都不能講所以其實你也是有承諾一個產值嘛所以其實你也是有承諾一個產值"},{"start":331.798,"end":349.372,"text":"那就不用騙了就是你也是告訴他們講說我們用G2G的方式軍購那些都不算但是我們承諾你我們多少廠商要過去投資然後會幫你創造多少就業機會跟多少產值可不可以換得我們的關稅下降 是這樣嘛模式是這樣嘛 沒錯吧"},{"start":350.702,"end":368.941,"text":"還是要廠商有意願我們才會協助廠商有沒有意願也是你說算了有時候你也會有時候你也會經濟部那麼廠商多少也會怕政府不會啦我們都會協助廠商第二你不能講第三我提醒一下不能把說產業外移都講得好像這麼的美好"},{"start":369.702,"end":389.14,"text":"如果產業萬一這麼美好的話我們台灣何必希望其他國家人到我們這邊投資呢因為到我們這邊投資可以增加我們的產值可以提高我們就業機會嘛所以我們的公司去國外投資多多少少也會影響到我們這裡的就業機會跟產值嘛所以立足台灣是第一步嘛"},{"start":389.62,"end":416.294,"text":"才有第二步當然啦不是啦他本來可以在台灣多設一個廠嘛現在就配合政府政策就到美國去設廠嘛而且到美國美國設廠也不見得有利嘛台積電現在亞利桑那州獲利就減少啦但是還是在獲利就減少啦但是還是在獲利啦但是減少CP值嘛算CP值嘛再問一個啦那現在剛剛很多委員在問齁那個路透社有報導說台積電要去美國幫忙幫忙訓練勞工但是你們否認嘛"},{"start":419.595,"end":441.089,"text":"因為談判沒有談到這個東西今天我剛看那個前英特爾的執行長說啊他說就算台灣的有些產業移到美國去生產晶片也沒辦法降低美國對台灣晶片的依賴啦除非經濟版圖位移他說除非做到經濟版圖位移不知道你知道嗎你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":442.177,"end":465.549,"text":"但是我不知道所謂的經濟版圖只有幾家公司去沒用啦最好是整個產業鏈移過去啦所以美國會加大力道啦那我就請教一下現在挪威人到英特爾去美國是英特爾的大股東吧 對吧最大股東 對吧 政府10%所以美國政府其實影響到英特爾嘛"},{"start":466.311,"end":491.509,"text":"那些挪威人假設帶著台灣的2奈米的機密到了英特爾去認知 我看到英特爾很歡迎他很歡迎他加入啦 很歡迎他加入那請教一下我們現在政府有沒有去跟美國談就說 欸 這個事情不道德喔因為我們已經在司法偵辦當中我們在司法偵辦當中 我們不知道他帶什麼機密去請美國給我一個承諾 假設他有帶機密去的話 你不能用"},{"start":493.103,"end":510.113,"text":"我們現在很有善要幫你形成產業聚落可能你未來是我們台灣的最大競爭者但是我們還是願意可是對於這個機密到那邊去政府態度是什麼有沒有跟美國政府講你不能用可不可以靜待司法調查之後大家再來談有沒有這個態度"},{"start":511.013,"end":528.08,"text":"我相信第一個我們司法已經調查了用國安法或者是那台積電也用營業秘密法提告了那我相信就是說美國企業他也知道因為提告可能有官司上的一些情形那他"},{"start":529.225,"end":553.393,"text":"不是啦 部長你都說你相信 你能夠預測川普嗎你不能說你相信 我說你有沒有去交涉這件事情他的心意又有另外說明 他說他們沒有用到相關機密性的這個技術嘛所以你覺得你覺得你相信嗎所以政府就不用做任何事情 就我們完全相信人性本善"},{"start":554.246,"end":580.646,"text":"我完全相信川普 但川普從頭到尾都認為是台灣偷走美國的晶片沒有啊 現在在司法調查啊司法調查是現在針對這個個案調查我現在是說在同時能不能做防弊的動作嘛就去跟美國交涉說你這個就算有的話你不能用否則的話他用了你現在調查出來有什麼有什麼意義勒你只是對他個人的所謂的懲罰而已嘛但對台灣產業的機密的外移政府做了什麼嘛"},{"start":582.921,"end":605.112,"text":"我們再請行政部門再給委員說明清楚因為你們大概這個回答的都雞同鴨講他主要是要請教委員請教的是說我們政府在這個過程當中有協助去了解什麼有沒有跟美方去洽談那你們現在所說的對啊 因為美國政府是英特爾的股東嘛請會後再跟委員來說明清楚好嗎好 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當了士官他就要離開"},{"start":221.331,"end":247.968,"text":"而我們士官有限都有比例都有人數的限制規定所以志願役士兵是最基本最基礎最重要的戰力的部隊增加這些家籍啊對他退伍毫無幫助"},{"start":249.335,"end":275.083,"text":"有時候他退伍很難找工作 要做農 當勞工勞工要從最基層開始 從頭算所以這些都是需要去考量的部分所以我們在尊仁待遇條例裡面雖然這一次的跟這個沒有關係 但是我是要建議國防部"},{"start":276.28,"end":305.724,"text":"也可以也應該不是可以應該要提軍人待遇的條例的修正將相關的本縫最主要是本縫嘛能夠給提高有很多的這個軍人不見得有這些家籍啊但是他們一樣要退伍啊所以包括一樣士官軍官也是一樣"},{"start":307.179,"end":318.4,"text":"他們的這些退伍也只計算本縫這些第一家級勤務家級沒有包含在裡面部長你的意見如何"},{"start":319.894,"end":336.78,"text":"跟委員報第一個就是說您剛提到那個二兵的那個我們在報告裡面有提到就是說如果你以這個基本待遇來看包括本碰專業家族跟志願家族的話二兵現在來看就這三項的基本待遇是42,150塊"},{"start":339.341,"end":366.513,"text":"但是他通常會如果再加入戰鬥部隊的話所以我們這次就大幅的調高戰鬥部隊所以他如果加上戰鬥部隊他就會到達五萬四千一百五十塊我只是在說明就是說他一般像二兵啊或者是一兵或者上等兵等等他如果在戰鬥部隊啊他就會有戰鬥部隊加急所以我們之所以會調高戰鬥部隊加急也就在提高這方面的誘因"},{"start":367.333,"end":382.651,"text":"那志願一加級他就您剛提到的他不會算入退休的時候的部分所以調高志願一加級也是增加他的基本待遇但是就他的退休來看的話並不會"},{"start":384.213,"end":409.892,"text":"因為志願役加給的增加而提高他的退休的給予那退休的給予的部分剛剛您所提到主要在本碰的部分那本碰的部分因為是軍公教整個一體來考量的所以他有一個整個軍公教的一個整體考量的問題所以就像軍公教加薪那軍人也加薪那本碰的部分也是軍公教一體來考量的"},{"start":411.693,"end":439.363,"text":"這個重點 但是事實上應該分開來講公教 公教他 我剛一開始講了 他可以隨時每天回家還有加班 他有加班費對不對 他有很多相關的這些另外一種待遇或者是叫 稱為福利所以軍人不一樣"},{"start":440.717,"end":468.198,"text":"真的不一樣除了增加 你已經增加了這些第一階級 前物階級之外更應該去增加他的本諷沒有 因為他的規定是另外一條法例並沒有跟公務人員的諷刑法跟教師的諷刑法是分開的是另外一個法例"},{"start":470.503,"end":495.512,"text":"跟委員報告一下 如果您去看他那個我們現在軍文通用的他都會有一個文子的一個子等然後跟我們軍中的這個階級會有一個比序所以你如果我們這個職務是軍文通用我們有時候會用文子 我們有時候會用君子所以在本碰上面來講這個比序上面不可能有過大的一個差異"},{"start":497.596,"end":523.789,"text":"這個部長沒有什麼不可能要不要做而事實上像剛剛前委員在陳俊逸委員提到我們要增加文職人員的那我們就要這兩回事 文職跟武職的軍人當然你現在是一樣也不對啊所以這個部分是可以分開的就如同公務人員公務人員也有不同喔"},{"start":524.862,"end":540.287,"text":"所以這個部分技術人員跟公務人員的也不一樣在公務人員裡面一般的公務人員跟技術人員的也不一樣所以這個部分給我們國防部"},{"start":541.472,"end":566.536,"text":"尤其是部長這邊能夠把它列入一個很重要的一個課題我想我們會來跟行政執意溝通我只要說明就是說在國安惡法實施之後現在很多的這個職務其實都是軍文通用的所以在考量這個軍文通用的情況之下這個本碰的這個調整其實是一個是一個必須要整體規劃的一個事項部長我一開始"},{"start":571.786,"end":571.806,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7d6f2796a0395776996d3b95029a3bab69e47d070529350c906a9cdfe7fa3d36a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:00:03 - 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黃委員"},{"start":13.229,"end":32.684,"text":"今天我們就講今天的報告中的一個新制的結構提到國進今年的加薪的方案和未來的規劃指出今年有一志願役勤務及戰鬥部隊的加級調整方案二是網路戰、戰航管和電偵三項勤務加級的一個調整"},{"start":36.687,"end":62.065,"text":"那未來的規劃會持續檢討修訂各項的請募的加急那部長今天我發覺我想你也發覺到國防部的加急方案和未來的規劃是什麼樣的特色關鍵就在國防部的所謂的加新全部透過加急的方式但是加急不是穩定的"},{"start":63.405,"end":80.633,"text":"穩定的本縫會受到各種條件的影響在新制的結構中具有不穩定的特殊性那很清楚的本席也了解國防部提出的加薪全部採取的是加級的方式"},{"start":81.253,"end":108.283,"text":"因為在這樣人才招募的時候可讓站面素性非常的好看但膨脹的多項加擠讓國人節的從今的薪資待意很好這根本是誤導視聽請問這位部長加擠到底加在加擠的薪資還是加在本縫的加薪最大的差別是什麼"},{"start":109.52,"end":133.996,"text":"那個來那個主席處你來回答這個問題是委員好其實依軍公教人員他待遇的基本的結構他就是包含了本縫跟專業家級所以本縫部分的調整他基本上軍公教他是一個依照階級跟值等一個橫平性的規定他不是單單只針對軍人的部分那"},{"start":135.492,"end":157.078,"text":"以軍人來講基本的待遇就是比軍職人員來講基本待遇就是比公教人員再多了一個志願役加級所以軍職人員的基本待遇基本上是本縫加上專業加級然後加上他的志願役加級這個才是他的一個基本待遇然後另外在針對軍職人員部分針對各個勤務的不同設有不同的一個勤務加級"},{"start":158.078,"end":168.106,"text":"在由國防部依據這個勤務的專業性 艱困程度或者是他的任務的一個繁雜性來訂定這個加級的標準 呈報行政院核定實施所以你們的唱片上寫得非常的好看"},{"start":173.786,"end":193.103,"text":"我們今天講的也是核心的基數 核心的基數退伍之後的保障 本縫是計算退伍金和退休縫的核心的基數包含金人的保險的死亡 殘廢給付等 也是以本縫相關加緊"},{"start":194.884,"end":216.668,"text":"那在這個時候根本不被計算國防部在這個豐富的家計在人招募時一旦遇到了會思考人生未來的規劃的時候直接就會被當作是詐騙 乍看薪水不錯但是退伍後落差極大 保障不足"},{"start":217.268,"end":245.491,"text":"所以這就是你們現在要檢討的部分所有的新的結構你根本就是毀謠視聽嘛對軍人退伍以後或者是要加入國軍的行列裡面來講的話在加入的過程好像你們寫的賬目非常的很好但是退伍之後沒有什麼保障所以你再說明一下剛剛我回答的問題好不好"},{"start":247.197,"end":269.648,"text":"包委員其實退伍以後就是公務人員公教人員退休公教人員退休跟軍人軍職人員退伍基本上都是用本縫來計算退休給予那在公教人員的部分目前他是計算前15年本縫的平均數來當成一個基數軍職人員是計算前"},{"start":270.468,"end":290.196,"text":"5年來當成一個平均的一個基數所以其實政府在整體的政策照顧上面對軍職人員的退伍的一個給予的計算其實已經比公教人員相對的寬鬆那我剛剛也跟委員報告因為軍公教的一個縫點縫級他是一個橫平性的一個規定所以如果"},{"start":291.236,"end":318.506,"text":"以目前的制度來講他沒有單單沒有辦法單單只去討論軍職的一個縫點跟縫級就是本縫的部分他需要軍公教一體橫評考量那也誠如委員所說很多保險的制度都是用本縫當成基數來給予但是他相對於就是官兵或者是其他公教人員他們自負的部分也是用本縫來計算因為時間因素你把這個數據明細的要給我一份是"},{"start":318.826,"end":340.075,"text":"因為現在很多的國軍官兵裡面來講非常的不了解你們現在所橫算的基數裡面的核心的基數非常的不了解因為前面看得非常帳面不錯但是他退伍之後他的保障嚴重的不足"},{"start":340.706,"end":366.628,"text":"所以我本心認為加級的補充非常的重要但是根本的解決問題是還是在回歸到加薪回歸 加薪回歸到本縫中最低的限度的改革也應該要把常態性加級納入各項計算的基礎中讓國薪退伍後能有更符合它的保障"},{"start":367.448,"end":393.093,"text":"這是對這退休的時候他才會把本縫加進加進去以公式的計算來法我們主張加薪就是加本縫才能符合合理到時候你把這些明細要給我一份好不好是我們再整理好那另外一些另外提到這個國新今年的加薪的方案"},{"start":396.021,"end":425.461,"text":"本席之前有執行過希望花東地區的現役的服役的官兵爭取的地役的一個家籍那上次我有特別提到本席認為家籍還是要回歸到他的目的的本質來討論國軍地役家籍的目的是什麼其實提供家籍的目的不外乎第一個 人員的留任第二 補貼生活費"},{"start":426.201,"end":446.501,"text":"第三,對於服務與監困的地區的補償從上述的目的來看,花東地區的住均應該符合地域佳績的資格我想部長有沒有思考這個問題,我上次有提出但是你們的回文是說"},{"start":448.183,"end":470.596,"text":"在研議 回覆給我的是在研議那這個部分我們要為了國新的人員的留住那地性的花蓮也符合 為什麼因為本席是花東的地質在交通上我們每次會碰到什麼地震 天災我們的交通就是不方便"},{"start":472.717,"end":491.395,"text":"地區性的地域的花東的這個國新官兵在交通上就會阻礙到那整個來講的話是不是他也符合禮儀島包含偏鄉偏遠的地域的一個花東是不是符合條新部長你來回答這個問題108年我們有承包行政院一直動了幾年"},{"start":498.258,"end":526.996,"text":"报告委员其实花农地区的一个东台地区的一个地域佳籍我们在108年的时候就有向行政院来争取那时候行政院是因为在79年的时候就已经冻结了这个东台地区的一个地域佳籍的金额跟对象所以没有把我们放进去但是我们虽然没有列入这个东台地区的一个现在是施工背景不一样你们现在的你们现在的边线比都已不足以八成"},{"start":527.896,"end":556.143,"text":"我們要留住在偏鄉或者在花東地域性的這樣的一個現役的部隊的軍人來講的話也應該要給他們一個保障這樣才可以留住你要有誘因嘛現在你們一直招兵不足的時候你們要如何在時空背景裡面去更改改變你們的做法才可以留住國軍官兵啊是不是你們要跟上層裡面的在來報告嘛"},{"start":558.004,"end":575.982,"text":"這是基層的反應啊報委員我是後製市市長向委員報告一下當然這個有這個獎金的部分是有對大家來說是有助益的可是我們要考慮到一件事情就是花東地區到其他地區去服務的人他一樣面臨這個交通的問題"},{"start":576.983,"end":600.497,"text":"就是其他地區到化動地區面臨的問題化動地區出去一樣會面臨到這些問題這個部分上次有跟委員報告過我們要全面來檢討可是我們現在就是如同剛剛資源司司長報告的現在考量本島一致的橫平性已經不可以再編列這些相關的交通費用所以針對上次委員說我們要把地域加擠要再放進去這個部分我們現在還在研究中因為我們講一個交通就好了"},{"start":605.441,"end":621.917,"text":"我們在不管是航班就比金門少很多在鐵路交通受到地震或颱風的影響的時候也就是一年中有三分之二的時間都處在中斷和半中斷的狀態"},{"start":623.078,"end":641.654,"text":"所以這就是我要提出來讓大家知道國防部應該在時空背景裡面在整個的狀況邊線比不足的時候是不是我們要讓我們的國軍官兵要留住你也要誘因能夠讓他的心知本分加緊"},{"start":642.455,"end":656.734,"text":"都要非常的清楚這樣才是符合國軍要招募我們國軍國軍官兵的子弟兵來加入我們的國軍今天來講我們現在未來你們提出的一兆.25億的"},{"start":659.137,"end":674.658,"text":"這樣的一個狀況那好 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谢谢主席给龚部长喝一口水好 我们请杨代表 龚部长还有我们国发会的叶主委好 我们请三位 谢谢各位早安谢谢委员长"},{"start":31.803,"end":53.074,"text":"我們卓院長他已經證實了台美目前在交換文件的這個階段了那我們知道國人都在意的是我們有沒有比日本韓國更好的條件那日本韓國他們分別都已經承諾投資5500億跟3500億那台灣到底投資多少"},{"start":58.891,"end":86.559,"text":"是有什麼具體的數字可以跟國人報告一下嗎楊代表報告委員我想日本跟韓國跟我們的情形不一樣我們的投資模式是依照我們的經濟發展產業結構跟業者的需求所定出來的至於金額的部分因為還在議定當中也不便細節對外宣布所以是不是要把我們科學園區"},{"start":88.38,"end":103.637,"text":"整個在美國再複製一個是這個概念嗎那如果這樣子的話除了台積電有多少的科學園區的廠商也要共同到美國去投資"},{"start":105.148,"end":126.818,"text":"報告委員 我們是說我們的內科學園區的經驗跟美國來交換意見協助我們的業者在當地能夠設立產業園區或是產業記錄不是把我們的科學園區搬到美國去我覺得這一部分跟委員做一個澄清那如果台積電去 整個供應鏈要不要去 部長"},{"start":128.032,"end":154.114,"text":"沒有啊 現在台積電的這個亞利桑那廠已經開始量產但是供應鏈還是沒有去啊很多都去了 很多都去了而且現在預估到美國投資的台灣廠商科技業而言就要他的對美的投資建一個廠比台灣的投資是要增加五到七倍喔"},{"start":155.896,"end":184.418,"text":"這個數字你們有沒有掌握應該沒有那麼高了沒有 你們掌握的沒那麼高是不是你們覺得沒有那麼高是不是那因為美國的生產的條件以及法令的這個跟台灣是有非常大的差異以及他們如何跟美國建立這樣子的一個就是說相關的能夠在台灣就是說有這樣相關的法令的"},{"start":185.138,"end":197.085,"text":"這個可及性在美國並沒有啊是不是這也就是為什麼我們要居獨居就是說台灣政府跟美國政府要有一個比較好的溝通沒有五到七倍 幾倍"},{"start":199.144,"end":226.036,"text":"那這個是企業界的這個秘密這個要台積電來說明啦我們不方便這個是他業者的秘密啦所以現在投資的金額還沒有確定嗎投資的金額你說台積電嗎不是 楊代表楊代表有答案啦"},{"start":227.267,"end":241.802,"text":"報告委員我剛剛已經說明了我們現在的投資金額尚未議定在談判前不便對外說明因為我們要爭取對我業者最有利的條件所以還沒有確定還沒有確定那是不是"},{"start":242.623,"end":265.587,"text":"要以我們整個產硬鏈到美國去增加他們半導體的產出那請問我們是不是變成要幫美國的企業來培養就是他們的就是勞力勞動力在半導體相關製造的勞動力是不是這是不是談的條件之一"},{"start":266.85,"end":289.697,"text":"報告委員我們沒有答應美國說要幫他訓練技術人員我想業者他們在做投資的時候依照他們的需求但是但是美國如果要求台灣的企業到赴美投資的時候他其實有要求我們要用當地的勞動力是不是多大比例"},{"start":293.611,"end":311.338,"text":"沒有談這個但是從對外投資來講當然要用當地的勞工那我們是不是以這樣子就是對於美國半導體製造業技術人力的訓練代替了巨額的資金投入"},{"start":312.788,"end":339.147,"text":"因為你一個廠在那邊 會不會一個廠在那邊要運作基本的這個人力上的這個基本條件還是要存在啊要不然他的廠沒有辦法運作啊 對所以他們本身台積電就會有一些職能訓練但是現在目前就是說在建廠階段他仰賴的是我們台灣的就是說台積電的員工赴美去建廠那甚至開始投入量產嘛"},{"start":340.187,"end":357.074,"text":"那很多建廠的人員已經回來了有一些已經回來了部分啦部分啦那還是最大部分還是仰賴台灣的嘛那他們現在希望說我們能夠訓練這個相關的部分嗎那個葉主委知不知道"},{"start":358.943,"end":376.612,"text":"這個部分的話就台積電自己本身他會有自己的判斷因為畢竟就是說他整個廠在那邊營運的話那到底要怎樣去做人力的安排然後是不是有一些員工要送回來台灣那他們要求多大的比例在地員工這個我倒不清楚說有多大"},{"start":376.812,"end":395.96,"text":"所以如果我們不是超越日韓這樣的投資金額是不是以我們目前來訓練當地的半導體生產的技術人員那來成為我們關稅談判的一個條件之一呢"},{"start":398.022,"end":413.596,"text":"這個應該不會是談判條件兩代表都沒說 你們兩個怎麼都在前面講報告委員 他們都是我們在副院長領導之下最好的談判夥伴所以他們兩個講的代表你們談判的內容嗎對 我們都一起的"},{"start":414.016,"end":440.53,"text":"所以代表你們談判內容嗎是不是他們剛剛已經表述了這個金額議定而且並沒有說訓練他的勞工室談判關稅減讓的一部分我們現在沒有談到這些好那我再問工部長就是目前我們對於關稅衝擊的這個四大措施就是外銷貸款的保證就是說保證加碼"},{"start":441.943,"end":456.833,"text":"那我發現加碼的荷寶只有10.8億還有中小微企業發展貸款加碼身貸是628件61.4億研發轉型865件那爭取海外訂單549件代表了我們過去認為因應關稅衝擊就是說創造出來的這些方案"},{"start":472.524,"end":481.434,"text":"目前為止好像效率乘數都不高是不是那是不是代表我們這些方案的作用呢"},{"start":484.772,"end":509.537,"text":"這樣加起來有兩千多件還是有很多那我們還是要加強宣導因為有些企業可能沒有收到這樣的訊息那所以我們為什麼要因為我們給他四百六十億的特別預算的貸款深貸額度那是四百六十億喔那他其實深貸的還沒有含就是說已經合則的深貸只有六十一億"},{"start":511.498,"end":529.691,"text":"這個執行期間要兩年多所以還有很多的時間可能需要直接經費不是要一次就用完我再問一下楊代表一個事情好不好楊代表我們關稅什麼時候可以抵定啊你知道嗎財政部的出口數字都沒有辦法算"},{"start":531.259,"end":547.112,"text":"報告委員剛剛已經講了我們如果對等二三二供應鏈一談妥的話對等的稅率我們一定要調降而且不疊加我們會緊述的依照國人的所以我們期待的是232跟對等關稅一起談嗎"},{"start":548.713,"end":570.578,"text":"這個剛剛我在報告裡面有講美國的我的產業的結構非常特殊是因為半導體還有電子產品造成最大的逆差所以這是兩個協定是一起談的那一起談的情況下對於未來關稅可能下降的這樣的機率有多大你說一下"},{"start":571.378,"end":586.329,"text":"我想政府院長您對領導的團隊有信心我們一定要爭取往下對等條件而且要不疊加這對我們業者才有機率啊楊代表我問一下嘛機率有多高機率非常的高70%80%還是90%還是低於70%四個答案嘛選擇題"},{"start":596.735,"end":624.304,"text":"我想那個底線談判沒有經過核定的話我們不能講到100%但是這是我們最大的期盼我們也有很高的信心可以爭取到那是70% 80%還是90%我還是不做這個比率的評斷機率啊機率啊這不是那個機率嗎我沒有說你會100%嘛機率非常的高那是多少啊70%以上還以下"},{"start":625.287,"end":647.392,"text":"我們一定要爭取二三奧供應鏈最好的稅率之下我們才會結束這個談判所以這個談判一結束對等也會調降這是我們最大的期盼機率還是非常的高你都沒有講我跟你講現在全台灣所有的製造業所有的高科技所有都在等你們"},{"start":649.553,"end":663.47,"text":"連財政部政府部門所有明年的稅收預估的數字都沒有辦法出來耶因為不知道明年的出口如何啊是不是但在這個情況下你總要透露給大家一點點那個吧是不是"},{"start":664.773,"end":665.073,"text":"好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af751cc6ea4871ca0d896d3b95029a3bab651ffdcaedd4f391ac5c989595a764c0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:30:43 - 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我們是不是有請顧立雄 顧部長請顧部長Sir 徐委員好部長好 首先在你們的報告裡面關於軍人薪資待遇結構裡面你們有提到幾點第一個 基本待遇你們提到是本縫加專業家級加志願役的家級以及另外提到了戰鬥部隊家級"},{"start":27.819,"end":51.416,"text":"但是呢以上的這個相關的加級在原本軍人條例修正之前它是只放在勤務加級之下的那現在你們的報告框架呢等於說是按照新法但是呢明年度的預算卻沒有第一個我想要質疑的事情是哪有人執行法律呢只執行一半的所以呢我想今天是表達一個態度跟立場"},{"start":52.176,"end":69.811,"text":"就是去年我們通過的軍人待遇條例就應該要依法行政因為裡面不僅僅是有志願役的加級的調整還有未來該何時檢討等等的規定甚至很多基層的官兵都在詢問有沒有辦法訂定超時加級"},{"start":70.672,"end":85.866,"text":"那行政院呢去把這個問題丟給憲法法庭但是在憲法法庭給予回覆之前他都應該要是一個三讀通過的法律被執行否則以後如果呢有人不想當兵那他也寫一個理由那送去憲法法庭"},{"start":86.306,"end":101.521,"text":"那他可以告訴你啊在憲法法庭回覆跟裁決之前那我都有權利不當兵那不就天下大亂了嗎所以當行政院帶頭違法亂政那當然這不是國防部長一個人可以決定的事情所以我想在這裡表明立場"},{"start":102.282,"end":125.557,"text":"未來相關法律的執行預算層面還是要整個立法院跟行政院再來協商但是請不要忘記賴清德總統講到就是說中共2027年可能要武統台灣等等如果我們對官兵的照顧卻如此苛刻甚至連依法行政都沒有那會多讓人寒心這是我在這裡表達立場那今天主要要詢問的問題是有關於這個海昆號"},{"start":128.539,"end":152.694,"text":"那關於進報他所獨家這個報導的這個新聞提到最近一次的海上測試包含是這個艦上的毛跡損壞出港的時候沒有毛那這個根本是政治性的海測拿全體的船員生命開玩笑也將造價256億元的首艘原型艦安全當兒媳我剛引用的是這個報導的內容"},{"start":155.396,"end":170.869,"text":"那台船做了一些解釋我們都有看到包含什麼呢傳播法不定義軍艦啊沒有安全儀力啊然後有旁邊有其他的兵力戒護等等那我有幾個問題要問第一當天海昆號測試的時候毛巾是否為損壞的狀態"},{"start":175.445,"end":198.027,"text":"委員長 海軍參謀長報告當天他的毛巾是在原廠在做一個對 他在調教嘛 對不對那他是不是因為壞了所以拿去調教那這個事情是什麼時候知道的呢在海上測試之前就知道了吧在規劃那天定義出去做海測之前就知道毛巾是損壞的狀況然後在原廠調教吧"},{"start":199.262,"end":215.849,"text":"對 它當初就是原廠它在做測試的時候它自己發覺有些元件要做必要的更換要做必要的更換嘛所以我覺得這個事情是這樣子既然它有要修正的地方壞了要調校那為什麼你今天海上測試的時候不是等它調校完畢之後準備好了再出海測試呢這到底是本來就台船或海軍我們都不在意還是呢覺得"},{"start":227.054,"end":232.432,"text":"用這樣的方式加速然後呢不顧大家的安全這件事是可以被接受的"},{"start":234.077,"end":259.913,"text":"跟委員報告那潛艦用的毛他一般是在這個潛航的時候他是不會用這個毛那他一般用於在航進這個轄災水域或是進出港那你還是不是需要嘛跟委員講他是一個多元備變的手段因為對啊那你還是不是需要嘛你這樣講的話航道不需要那就別裝啦那他有沒有必要性嘛我看永昂將軍都在搖頭"},{"start":262.135,"end":287.552,"text":"你說裝這個毛沒有必要性毛巾沒有必要性這是你現在講的喔你現在告訴我們說海昆號上面不用裝毛巾也沒關係喔你的意思是這樣喔你要注意你的說法你的意思是告訴全台灣的民眾海昆號上面沒有毛巾也無所謂你是要做這樣的定義嗎我跟委員先報告他有一個先決條件就是說他的主要動力跟備用動力的系統是正常的"},{"start":288.092,"end":309.489,"text":"他的毛巾然後還有他當天我們左營高雄港是有做全程的所以他其實實際上對海昆號來說是必要的東西嘛但是你們在測試的時候你們當時他就是壞了所以在原廠調校沒有然後呢你們認為自己經過評估之後測試還是OK所以就去測試了不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":310.766,"end":328.895,"text":"那是經過嚴密的這個 那既然日後要回專為什麼要急著出港那你今天講說旁邊有介乎就想吵吵了事這個對在船上的這些船員測試員當中他們會認為你們根本沒有把人家的生命當一回事這就是在碰運氣"},{"start":330.556,"end":355.698,"text":"根據委員報告 我們這個評估是專業團隊 台船 國外技協還有最終使用者 船上的官兵一起跟我們做評估如果你認為船上的使用者 大家都這麼的接受的話今天又和有哪些人會覺得說是受不了然後向進報去做這樣子的爆料 而且是符合事實的呢我要講的事情是說 你今天台船大言不慚的去引用船舶法 說它不包含艦艇"},{"start":356.659,"end":375.549,"text":"但是對艦艇來說其實我們會希望它是更加的嚴格而不是更鬆散它本來就是必要的航安設備如果這樣的測試是可以被接受的那以後是不是所有的海測你們都可以在沒有毛機的情況下測試國防部可以接受甚至海昆號完成以後出海"},{"start":376.289,"end":387.236,"text":"沒有毛巾國防部也要接受嗎以後出海的時候不是測試喔完成以後出海我毛巾壞了我照樣開出去無所謂這是今天國防部要給我們的態度嗎跟委員報告艦艇有區分兩種狀況一種是他完成成軍服役的服勤艦"},{"start":397.625,"end":409.198,"text":"它是完整的扶擒艦毛巾是一個重要的一樣是選項裝備但是有的替代方案另外海昆現在在建造階段你說的替代方案在當天海上測試的時候有嗎"},{"start":410.526,"end":436.311,"text":"有提供方案就是我剛有提到主電力 墮機跟相關應變的措施都所以你的意思還是一樣啊完整的潛艦已經完備之後就算是已經測試完交艦之後你認為海空號上面沒有毛巾國防部可以接受報告委員這不是 他現在正在做測試是啊 在測試的時候對於安全來說當然也很重要我問你一個問題喔今天你要做測試是不是要講求數據正確"},{"start":439.909,"end":450.045,"text":"要看哪種的監測環境你要不要講求你今天測試的時候數據是你測試的時候各項的數據是符合到時候你交件以後你所得到的內容"},{"start":451.311,"end":461.278,"text":"不需要要看條件之下因為他這次出去做的是比較並不需要很精準你們的海上測試都不需要很精準這個話我們在國會殿堂上也可以講的出來那所有全民聽到你們這樣講之後會覺得你們的海上測試做的是嚴謹的嗎現在大家希望是一個嚴謹的測試我告訴你上一次是什麼沒有你記得嗎"},{"start":477.085,"end":492.028,"text":"什麼東西是跟人家借來裝的 我們自己沒有潛望鏡這一次是什麼沒有 毛巾沒有下一次是什麼沒有 不知道每一次都丟三落四的 少東少西的那這樣子我就問 你剛剛講說測試不需要很精準的數據 為什麼你會這樣講因為我簡單講 你今天有沒有毛巾對於艦艇的整體重量有沒有影響"},{"start":504.056,"end":524.335,"text":"跟委員報告 剛才會跟委員報告他這次出去的主要測試目的就是在做他做高轉速我剛問你的問題沒有回答我嘛今天有沒有毛肌對於健體的整體重量有沒有影響對於健體的整體的重量有沒有毛肌有沒有影響"},{"start":526.55,"end":544.064,"text":"好 非常的低 配重有沒有影響配重配重 船上會做自己的平衡跟配重 配重沒有影響 平衡也沒有影響重心跟浮心的計算數據有沒有差異沒有 差異並不大你都說並不大 但是就是會有嘛 對不對都會做統一考量"},{"start":544.424,"end":548.406,"text":"你就是只是說因為你們覺得你們自己做現在的統一考量那就是你們說的算但是實際上你剛剛講的會有差異不管你今天差異多少它的測試數據跟你實際上面最後你得到的就是不一樣我們今天測試都是講求什麼我們希望你測試的東西就是測試跟最終的結果是一樣的"},{"start":565.416,"end":583.489,"text":"結果你少了這個毛巾之後我先不說你的安全性的問題以及船員你問船員每一個人已經要測試說我沒有毛巾但是我們覺得很安全所以我們這樣出去可不可以那請問他們怎麼回答你不可以但是大家的心情是什麼你們有沒有拿人家的生命當一回事他心裡有數啊那我剛剛講了嘛你今天不管說你的艦艇的重量配重"},{"start":588.712,"end":593.095,"text":"重心 浮心等計算數據你說影響維護 但它就是有影響今天簽一法而動全身海昆號我們希望它是做好而且能夠安全然後呢而且是一個很好的潛艦所以對所有的測試我們都希望能夠用高標準跟高規格結果你告訴我的是一個說我們今天只要說記寫所謂的你們的專業團隊認為沒有問題就出去了旁邊反正有兵力戒護等等的"},{"start":615.569,"end":636.459,"text":"那這個對大家來說今天台船的說法我必須說國防部未必要買單啊你今天應該是要監督台船萬無一失而不是說今天所謂的標準就是呢台船說了算台船來回應那下一次如果用的設備壞掉涉及重要安全的像這樣子的一個情況那你還要持續往外測試嗎"},{"start":639.145,"end":655.247,"text":"公務員報告我是不是總統大概就三點第一點就是說我想秉持安全還是首要的考量所以我們每次的海測都有經過完整的逐項評估會制定安全的規範跟風險管理來應處在符合安全條件下才會安排海上測試"},{"start":656.528,"end":672.121,"text":"就這一次的這個潛艦用錨是在一般潛航的時候並不使用它是在航經狹窄水域或進出港的時候因應緊急狀況作為減速使用是一個多重的備援選項之一那我們評估這個主動力"},{"start":674.022,"end":696.204,"text":"主被動力的系統正常那還有拖船警戒及伴護的兵力已經全程支援之下那個毛具他在這一次的這個護航測試不是一個必要的條件但我想潛艦在現在還在建造測試的階段那毛巾呢之後我們還是會在調校之後回裝之後我們會以護航"},{"start":698.125,"end":715.576,"text":"無航的方式來測試下毛跟起毛的操作功能所以等到回裝之後我們會配合什麼時候要回裝12月中12月中要回裝所以這樣很清楚了我們會配合後續的海上測試會來執行SAT的驗收"},{"start":719.958,"end":732.814,"text":"因為你十二月中你知道十二月中毛巾才要修好所以如果你今天你不先讓他出去的話你覺得你十一月的海戰你就要跳票了因為你出不去了所以你才說喔很安全那就讓他先出去否則的話照理來說他應該是要一起去測試的"},{"start":737.62,"end":760.506,"text":"報告你現在已經是12月1號了所以我的意思是說我們沒有在做任何政治計畫你海策的時候是11月不是12月今天不是今天就海策的部長要完成全部的海策你們本來就已經跳票了事實上現在已經是做不到所以我們還是以秉持安全為首要的考量是說你11月要海策對不對我們剛剛已經做了充分的說明了你上一次的時候是不是說你11月說要海策"},{"start":765.988,"end":777.032,"text":"所以說如果你12月的時候毛巾才要修好然後再裝上去然後才能做海測的話那又再跳票一次所以說為了要趕這個時間點來測試所以呢你就告訴大家說哎呀這個反正我們要去的地方沒有毛巾主動力系統安全所以還是讓他出去了那你想要避免大家來通緝說海空號再度跳票的結果在於你呢之後12月的時候又還是基本上還是得去做測試的嘛"},{"start":794.898,"end":805.261,"text":"那既然要測試的話為什麼就是你沒有一個道理說毛巾在11月的時候這一次的海測上面如果我告訴你如果他是好的你會不會讓他去測嘛如果他本來就沒有要維修他本來就是好的你會不會讓他也一起去測嘛也不會嗎你就把他拔掉嗎你也不會這麼做啊"},{"start":816.587,"end":828.775,"text":"我還是再次強調我們都經過安全的評估我想沒有什麼要趕著要在幾月要進行你們基本上你們都會說沒有要趕我想這邊要正式的還是要否認有這樣的任何的政治性考量請委員能夠我告訴你如果今天這個毛巾他根本沒有壞掉他也沒有再調教的情況他上不上海昆號他測不測試他測試你們剛剛的說法非常清楚了"},{"start":846.007,"end":850.65,"text":"那就是因為他壞了所以他這次海測的時候沒有要下一次的時候再測不是很簡單的道理嗎所以我沒有要講說這是政治性海測這是船員然後呢他們向進報的報導裡面所說的我在意的是什麼第一毛巾損壞的情況下的安全問題對於很多在船上測試的人來說他們是不舒服的"},{"start":872.702,"end":889.097,"text":"第二測試數據的問題就算你今天告訴我影響不大他就是有影響第三國防部的態度應該是要用最嚴厲最嚴謹的方式來監督台船而不是幫台船洗地最後就是人事問題我今天時間不夠我只講"},{"start":891.799,"end":898.722,"text":"為什麼只要涉及海昆號的人士更迭的速度都特別快台船從鄭文郎董事長之後又換了兩次董事長黃曙光走了 唐華掉崗位那對海昆號的相關資訊要怎麼銜接這個人士拼裝車是很難讓外界安心的"},{"start":910.586,"end":913.348,"text":"希望我們部長能夠針對海昆號相關測試的相關的人員讓他穩定下來不要再這樣子換來換去會讓大家感到非常的不安心因為時間有限的關係 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7dfc4e4266b4de3e396d3b95029a3bab69e47d070529350c9047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:40:56 - 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主席有請顧部長 是因為"},{"start":13.241,"end":33.683,"text":"部長早安喔賴總統在上個禮拜宣示了就是我們要來編列的這個1.25兆的國防特別預算那麼其實這個本席在國防外交委員會也曾經多次的質詢喔那麼這樣的一個國防預算1.25兆出來之後喔因為其實是八年但是呢很多時候喔被這個"},{"start":34.864,"end":46.152,"text":"要擋軍購的人一講好像就1.25兆好多喔那我們國家的預算是不是都拿去了其實用簡單的數學來除一除就知道說這個一年只要1562.5億其實對於我們國家目前的財政是絕對可以負擔的而這個"},{"start":53.337,"end":59.181,"text":"有國防其實才有安全那麼其實你也曾經宣示了就是說在這個國防產業當中最重要的是連經濟部都做了圖卡就是說接下來在這個特別預算當中我們不只是打造國安國防更要有產業的亮年而經濟部還說這個有打造產業"},{"start":72.871,"end":78.236,"text":"自主量能的部分有航太機器狗船艦無人載機具跟衛星的五大產業而您同時也對外發布了說在這個產業量能當中會提供九萬個工作機會跟四千億的產能"},{"start":89.867,"end":92.129,"text":"言下之意就是要讓全民知道我們在國防的部分不只是花錢我們更有機會來打造在非紅產業鏈當中一個非常重要的位子但是我特別去調了一下財政部的資料我們無人機確實是這個產能"},{"start":107.159,"end":111.902,"text":"澳人在2024年呢我們只有441萬美元但是截至今年10月為止已經高達了5,475萬美元也就是高達12倍那我認為確實這個數字跟這些部分都是應該讓國人知道的不過本席要問部長的是部長您知道嗎在這個整體的產業的部分喔現在無人機只有商用的"},{"start":136.539,"end":158.931,"text":"也就是軍規商用的部分其實是無法出口的也就是言下之意本席收到的狀況是說那麼在打造非紅供應鏈的狀況底下其實我們的無人機的這些產量跟量能絕對不可能是只留在台灣是吧那麼"},{"start":161.454,"end":179.899,"text":"就本席今年6月得到澄清之後所知道的一個狀況是這樣就是我們整機的所謂軍規商用的無人機如果要出口那必須向經濟部的貿易署來經經過申請可是呢我們有一個叫做"},{"start":181.219,"end":196.467,"text":"戰略性高科技貨品輸出管理辦法但是我們軍用的無人機是沒有這個辦法言下之意就是說雖然我們現在放眼未來我們無人機要進入全球市場"},{"start":197.347,"end":221.884,"text":"但是是沒有辦法的也就是說我們就算申請出來了也沒有辦法對外輸出因為根本就沒有這個出口的規範那麼本席在今年六月詢問了之後那麼當然也跨部會的去了解兜了一圈很像鬼打牆一樣就是經濟部說必須要有國防部"},{"start":223.045,"end":239.539,"text":"給予相關的國防的建議我也認同因為包括輸出的辦法當中要如何來訂定規範這個很重要所以需要國防部的建議但是呢國防部前一陣子你們都在處理任性相關的這個特別預算"},{"start":241.701,"end":254.597,"text":"沒有時間但是從六月到現在已經經過半年了本席希望在透過今天的質詢能夠點出這個問題就是當我們放眼接下來在我們的國防產能當中我們要發展"},{"start":257.741,"end":259.882,"text":"進入所謂的非紅產應鏈讓台灣可以有機會成為輸出這些軍工產品的國家的時候那麼規定在哪裡有沒有要制定相關的規定現在重點是如果連辦法都沒有"},{"start":273.909,"end":283.292,"text":"那難道是要我們國內自己買嗎不可能嘛 是不是一定要有市場那麼在全球的市場當中我就問有沒有做跨部會的溝通然後有關於這個輸出的管理辦法能不能出來那何時可以出來"},{"start":291.821,"end":308.83,"text":"委員好 我是軍備局局長非常感謝委員的指導我們的無人機區分為一 軍用軍規軍用軍規就是由我們中科院來生產製造它只要滿足我們國內的戰備需求我們就可以依規定來呈報出口這是沒問題的"},{"start":309.83,"end":337.294,"text":"那第二個是軍用商規的部分假如是這個無人機不管是我們市面上很多有名的公司比如中光電雷虎等等的生產的商規的無人機他是不需要我們國防部來核准啊今天的問題就是他想要帶著火藥一起出口可是民間廠商按照刀械槍砲刀械管制條例他是不可能會有火藥的"},{"start":337.734,"end":339.217,"text":"所以我的火藥是不可能賣給民間廠商所以這個部分也在國安會都已經研討過了暫時跟委員說明"},{"start":346.56,"end":370.216,"text":"您提到的是有關於火藥的部分我現在提到的是在這樣的一個所謂高科技產品的輸出管理辦法當中是缺乏一個辦法以至於在整體的過程當中經濟部說因為國防部國安局沒有給辦法所以對於本席來說本席在乎的不是個案的問題"},{"start":370.956,"end":382.56,"text":"本席在乎的是這樣的一個管理辦法戰略性高科技貨品輸出的管理辦法現在沒有制定出來那麼局長您剛剛講的是軍用軍規軍用軍規商用那另外商規都不管你們現在是在軍規商用的部分連管理辦法都沒有"},{"start":393.584,"end":396.747,"text":"那剛剛您提到的是所謂個案有什麼需求但本席要追蹤的是辦法因為我從經濟部貿易局這裡所得到的是根本連辦法都沒有那麼是不是真是如此呢那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":409.52,"end":422.133,"text":"接下來我們放眼所看到的這些軍工的產業如果確實要做對外輸出要在所謂部長跟國防部宣示的要成為全球重要的產業生產國的時候那麼有沒有這個辦法在裡面 部長跟委員報告 就這個議題在現在"},{"start":432.768,"end":449.129,"text":"在國安會喔應該就要做一個跨部會的一個協調然後我們要有由國安會做一個政策性的一個指導那麼在這個政策性的指導之下我想國安部會跟經濟部來合作就這個"},{"start":453.086,"end":477.132,"text":"特別是以如果講以無人機作為一個例子的話那我們到底如何該跟民主同盟國家打造一個在一個非紅供應鏈的前提之下能夠進行相關的合作那這些合作不只是包括了一個技術的合作那也包括了我們關鍵民主圈的出口那甚至剛剛委員提到了整機的出口這個部分可能都要做一個整體的規劃"},{"start":477.972,"end":505.101,"text":"沒錯本席特別提出來質詢就是說對於我們來講過去喔民眾可能都還停留在是台灣要對外買軍購沒錯就像這一次我們編的1.25兆的預算但是除此之外台灣在其他的這些國防自主的部分我們也是有機會輸出尤其是像無人機所以我特別請求的是說國防部在有關於軍規無人機的部分你在出口的部分"},{"start":505.461,"end":524.187,"text":"到底有沒有審查的原則標準然後如何在跨部會當中跟經濟部跟相關的單位做一個跨部會的整合去把這樣的標準跟規定制定出來這樣子在我們可以有機會量產或對外來銷售的時候才有機會能夠拿下這些訂單讓我們真正所看到的9萬個工作機會4千億的產能真的能夠展現出來"},{"start":535.092,"end":548.864,"text":"對 因為這個其實跟委員坦白講這個就涉及到我們能夠輸出的哪些國家然後輸出國家最後它的最終使用者那這些其實我們要做一些整體性的考量"},{"start":549.417,"end":568.221,"text":"好所以呢我希望在這個部分齁還是要能夠趕快先把規定規範制定出來好接下來下一個我要詢問的當然也是跟今天的主題有關啦齁就是在你們的報告當中其實我很認真的做了一個整理也就是各式的勤務加擠喔但是裡面卻看不到心腹的部分"},{"start":568.681,"end":583.03,"text":"那麼有關於新府的部分呢本席除了非常關注之外我想之前在去年的4月24號就是當時是我們國防外交的委員但現在是勞動部長的洪森翰部長他也曾經質詢過就是其實對於我們整體喔"},{"start":586.452,"end":603.141,"text":"軍中的這樣的一些有關於心腹的部分那麼國軍同仁在面臨勤務上面或者在軍中生活當中所面對的心理的壓力其實是存在的但是就整個報告來看從2015到2024年度有7項的加擠那麼2025年的調整的加擠又有5項那麼未來規劃的部分有戰鬥加擠"},{"start":611.705,"end":615.69,"text":"有航管加擠有反情報加擠有市官長督導的加擠等等但是依舊沒有看到新府人員的加擠在這個部分喔我想是非常重要的而如果說今天他們沒有放上來是因為國防部認為沒有需求呢還是說其實這個不在你們的規劃當中"},{"start":636.25,"end":664.617,"text":"跟委員報告 其實新府加擠的部分我們其實有在研究 那也在去年11月的時候有情報 呈報來行政院審議那行政院目前給我們回覆的審議結果初步是沒有同意那我們還在增強相關的一個論述希望以後有機會可以再繼續爭取好 這個行政院不同意喔 一定有他的理由那麼我所知道的理由 是不是說因為是有證照已經有證照加擠 是這樣嗎還是說有其他的理由 理由是什麼"},{"start":666.269,"end":695.24,"text":"跟委員報告其實證照應該不是他他主要的他的確在會就是會審相關部會的時候譬如說像衛福部或是其他部會他們都有相關相關的一個東西所以我想行政院他是一個整體的考量那他目前大概跟我們回的理由大概是說國軍還是以國家的防衛任務這樣子的一個為主然後新府的人力目前看起來看起來在邊線比上面也沒有像主戰部隊一樣有這麼急迫性的一個需求"},{"start":695.84,"end":721.215,"text":"所以這個相關的一些審查意見我們還在加強論述好我希望在這個部分我們還是要注意起來因為對於部隊當中所面臨的心理上面所需要諮詢的部分那麼我知道其實你們的人力上如果以每一年所畢業的心腹相關然後進入部隊的人數上面其實也是不夠的對於他們來講他們身為心腹的這些相關的同仁啊他們"},{"start":722.055,"end":725.056,"text":"國軍弟兄啊他們在部隊當中他們所承受的壓力其實也很大一個人可能要對好幾個這個部隊上面所需要的需求量所以我也認為如果可以的話我也想幫他們爭取就是必要的加擠"},{"start":739.856,"end":749.087,"text":"呃就這個部分呃跟如同剛剛沈國昌市長講的我們有提出來那我想我們呃就這個部分我們會再來呃加強論述來來來爭取好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8163f3efc01af7a8b211f7d870e9cdb28663f7a8bd11809e47d070529350c942edee24a00ddc365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:38:49 - 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包括你曾董事長都是單吃反核的現在怎麼又要開放原來的核電廠 核二核三我常常你們講的做一套 收一套沒有準備先是自己的紙張 今晚你們再緩水你們有沒有對自己的良心交代一下"},{"start":76.394,"end":92.605,"text":"因為這個經歷的事實我們都經歷過反風車的時候也在你們時代產生的反核也在你們執政的時候產生的今天這國民黨就說了 替你們去開這一條路你們的政策不是很正確嗎"},{"start":94.318,"end":112.247,"text":"所以我一直在想我們啊你們當政務官的一定要好好想我們的未來我們的前瞻在哪裡事情已經發生了已經給大家過了這麼久都忘了當初反俄化反風車的時候有多嚴重啊"},{"start":113.251,"end":124.367,"text":"好不好 檢討一下啦不要說這樣悄悄呼呼過去大家都不了解沒有見過這樣的事實包委員 我可以講一下嗎可以啊 可以講一下仔細的時間給我長一點我就給你講一下"},{"start":127.998,"end":151.159,"text":"因為行政部門還是依法行政我後面有加一句話你聽不懂國民黨真笨被人家打死了還自以為是英雄當初環境基本法的非核也是大院通過的我們就按照那時候只要電力能用在我們台灣產業的發展我都支持啦意識形態不要那麼重就好啦"},{"start":151.679,"end":174.63,"text":"還是要送立法院 立法院定的法我跟您講 您不能去衝了好不然您管不著 郭部長說他要支持核電我說你管要不要做我是愛護你們才問這個問題的好 謝謝 董事長請回座 部長那現在我們行政院經貿談判室我們的楊總談判台表你先請回座 郭部長"},{"start":180.838,"end":199.521,"text":"韓總好久不見了看你氣色越來越好你又帶著微笑那你這次談判最主要就是對等關稅20%還有要暫緩那個原來的關稅對不對20%你們希望降到像日本韓國的15%一樣對不對我們希望稅率要繼續調降"},{"start":208.226,"end":221.958,"text":"還有嘉義的研究因為它是半導體資通的產業都在這個地方我們90%的資操也在這幾個行業裡面好久沒有看到你"},{"start":222.85,"end":248.505,"text":"我會說我們的政府很奇怪奇怪在哪裡呢我們的經濟部長我們國發會的葉執委以前的劉執委 郭執委你們在談判的時候都不曉得到今天兩個經濟部還有掌管我們財經大機的國發會裡面都不曉得那你這次回來終於又見到你了有沒有帶來什麼好消息"},{"start":249.838,"end":276.715,"text":"委員好首先跟委員澄清這個談判團隊在第一次4月開始的時候就有對外宣布由政府院長領軍經貿談判辦公室經濟部外交部國防部經濟部外交部以及農業部說什麼要公開的都沒有公開往好的往壞的給我放心一下因為你今天第一次來讓我們真正到底我們要談判的是往良性發展"},{"start":277.911,"end":303.148,"text":"往正面发展我们是在往正面发展跟美方争取最后能够得到最好的税率外面的报纸大概我们是在日本跟韩国那日本的话投资的时候要5500亿美元等于17.3兆韩国是3500亿美元那以韩国的话投资3500亿美元是占我们GDP的14%"},{"start":305.069,"end":328.686,"text":"如果依照日本的話5500億美元是佔了69%那到底你們現在外面的新聞我們是很緊張的你們做官的人量量啊現在每一個中小企業大家在看你這個消息談判的怎麼樣看你這個政府有沒有夠力有沒有很有尊嚴的跟美國談判到底我們的金額多少"},{"start":329.718,"end":358.232,"text":"好委員跟您報告一下我們在做這個台灣模式的談判是依照我們產業的結構經濟發展最重要我們都有跟業者溝通諮詢過所以我們的模式不跟日本韓國一樣是按照我們國內的需求大概我們投資的金額要多少我想不到最後的談判結論終點我們大概不會對外宣布這個數字我現在跟你說談到台灣模式"},{"start":359.335,"end":387.885,"text":"你們是到底是打世界盃還是在掏空台灣出賣台灣絕對不是掏空台灣你們每一個官員都講我們要打世界盃其實憂心忡忡我們不是聽官方的報告我們是天下之憂而憂後天下之樂而樂其實這裡面的陷阱大概很多那我請教你這個可能部長比較曉得你在旁邊一下我們是老朋友"},{"start":390.134,"end":413.676,"text":"部長再請工部長你看美國的川普總統跟輝達的黃振輝董事長兩個我們在美國第一屆第一次最高階的金銭在美國生產出來的我現在提醒時間快要到了"},{"start":414.71,"end":438.965,"text":"川普总统讲50%的才能要在美国50%的才能会在台湾或者世界各地您常不常说我啊美国霸权主义你不晓得啊他要难怪他当然每一个人为他国土的那个国安的问题会五十五十你台湾没存下面"},{"start":439.953,"end":465.613,"text":"還有第二件事情發生沒有問題拿不走政治有什麼拿不走的叫你拿乖乖拿台積電日本把台積電的機師出去結果那家公司的拿那個資料公司老闆是Rapid的董事還是董事長"},{"start":467.15,"end":492.073,"text":"日本已經先進 它二奈米製作成功明年就要正式生產咱大家洋洋得意再來咱台軍的那個樓前副總到英特爾去你們都不敢發聲我不知道那個政府安裝那麼縱容美國的經濟間諜日本的經濟間諜"},{"start":494.585,"end":519.734,"text":"你拿過來我都曉得你們在辦在檢查單位在辦這個非常危險的徵兆你把資金拿過去你把產業鏈帶過去你把人才帶過去台灣剩下什麼美國川普總統還一句話要求台灣的電子產業要替美國培訓技術人員"},{"start":521.462,"end":549.033,"text":"你整個往旁邊 還在說我打世界盃我們自己奔不下去啊 你算什麼台灣如果以現在的政治地位 不是說我在批評啊其實我們搖一搖 兩邊都要震動啊為什麼你們腿那麼軟 那很害我不希望台灣的產業在你們執政黨的時代把這整個掏空掉"},{"start":550.285,"end":574.114,"text":"台灣真的危險從2016年開始這個台商投資台灣是大幅的增加投資台灣你是大幅的增加當然既是在這邊現在大幅的增加但是以後拿過去的話要怎樣大幅增加還是持續大幅增加照目前的規劃不是投資你講的現在大幅增加馬上就大幅的減少了不會啦什麼不會"},{"start":576.235,"end":588.844,"text":"按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的規劃 按照台積電的�"},{"start":601.141,"end":621.88,"text":"你又撇了夫人又責病 整碗飯給人家 又把你放在那裡台灣一無所有 國務長 你從國安會上我真的很擔心 這種徵兆出來哪幾個國家我自己好了 我再關於台灣生死記得這些話 政治很現實的 好不好 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謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝好 有請顧部長好 部長好"},{"start":13.14,"end":28.529,"text":"那這個呢我先追蹤一下因為這剛好也是大概在兩個禮拜前那時候我們有問就是說關於這一個加擠的這個接下來的一個調整跟順序因為我們現在有這一個志願役的有戰鬥部隊的 戰航館的 電偵的網路戰的等等之類的"},{"start":33.232,"end":49.632,"text":"今天在這一個我們的回應裡面就已經有提到目前請政院爭取的加擠方案所以看起來是逐步在進行所以這個部分我比較沒有什麼疑問我想要問的事情就是說因為今天畢竟是以這個作為主題"},{"start":50.333,"end":66.256,"text":"那因為現在加擠的部分我在看這一個網路戰的部分因為網路戰的加擠我們在這個2017年的時候那時候其實就有這個相關的設計那時候其實是國軍就開始這一個我覺得這是值得嘉許的一件事情"},{"start":67.297,"end":81.262,"text":"因為後來院版就是行政院針對資安相關的就跟國防部無關他們也有做這個加急但加急的方式比較不一樣所以那時候我有去詢問就是說這個不一樣到底在哪裡然後呢為什麼會這樣設計他當時是這樣跟我講就是說因為"},{"start":86.084,"end":101.182,"text":"我們過往這一個所謂的網路戰加級的部分它其實有一點點像獎金的性質因為它內部有一個長官的審核然後看一下這一個表現有點類似績效的意思當然內部會產生一些競爭"},{"start":102.523,"end":114.955,"text":"所以後來行政院他們在做設計的時候呢他們的設計的方式就是他還是會有一個這個加級這個加級是比較固定的然後後面再加一些能夠變動的這個獎金他這樣會讓這個中間內部的那一種績效競爭的關係稍微減緩那時候速發部也有說他們在這個設計的時候呢也有做一個變動"},{"start":123.884,"end":151.291,"text":"那這個變動的方式就是他不用一個月一個月看他是一年一年看這有點像是警察跟調查局的差別調查局也是他喜歡從一年去看那個績效那這個時候內部那個競爭的這個壓力可能會稍微少一點所以我想問一下就是說呢就是我們現在加擠這個是確定的這個比較沒問題就是說加擠的方式有沒有可能我們跟院版目前他們自己在做跟資安相關的加擠的時候有沒有對齊的這個空間"},{"start":162.502,"end":183.994,"text":"那這個部分第一個就是證照的部分那這個部分就是有參考行政院所發的這個基準那第二個就是針對他平常的一些工作的時機我問的就是這一個部分那這個部分都會有一個平和和審核的機制"},{"start":184.994,"end":212.391,"text":"實際看他任務執行的成效然後依照這個等級然後去做審核發放對 因為我就是在這個在問的過程當中就發現就是你剛剛講的這個第二個的這一個部分有時候會有一點過度競爭過度競爭的時候因為他也是長官在做審核審核的時候呢長官之間的關係可能有些人會他不一定是長官是因為跟他的關係但旁邊的人他沒有得到他可能會不滿他認為說我明明我的績效很好這個有時候會有一些內部的一些因素"},{"start":213.191,"end":236.21,"text":"但是我們也不能說績效不重要所以簡單來講就是說我們要把那個變動的那一個幅度不一定要拉到最大而是說像剛剛院本的那種方式就是它有一個基礎然後再加上那一個績效的部分它的變動就會比較小那可以讓這種彼此競爭的這種關係會稍微減緩一下但因為我知道就是在評估那個的時候呢看起來可能有十幾二十項嘛"},{"start":237.09,"end":261.531,"text":"這個是機密的部分所以我覺得這個看是不是能夠比如說我們在這幾個禮拜的時候呢我們在辦公室稍微討論一下就是說我們在設計的那一個加擠的部分要讓基層感受到說它是被公平對待的我覺得這個事情是重要的就是說加擠這個部分沒問題像我們要討論的是加擠的方式能不能夠讓他們感覺到說我真的因為我的工作被加擠所以這個部分我們就之後再來討論好 那這個"},{"start":265.363,"end":286.289,"text":"下一個這個問題雖然它不是跟加擠直接相關這個是我們跟國防部調的資料這是空軍的正期班他們的體檢前跟體檢後藍色的部分是他在大疫的時候他可能有做體檢他有一個人數"},{"start":287.929,"end":313.51,"text":"紅色的部分是那個大三下的時候做了體檢之後發現他可能不適合所以他就不繼續做這個飛行生其實我覺得這個解釋的空間可能很大而且我覺得數字不一定代表真實狀況但至少有一點我覺得值得注意就是因為他一定就是你大一的時候做體檢大三再做中間一定會有落差因為過了一段時間過了一段時間之後一定會有人掉這個沒問題"},{"start":314.471,"end":329.121,"text":"而且你們還會另外可能不管是從這個專班的方式等等你會補人 這個是OK的那 但是你看這個2016到2021的時候我覺得那個中間會少的那個人數是蠻恆定的但是從2021到2025有加大"},{"start":332.944,"end":361.478,"text":"尤其是2025你看他這個是200到150也就是說他從因為這個體檢的方式然後因為離開這個的人數是變多了這個變多當然你們會有你們補的方式這個OK但是到底會不會是他們的意願的問題還是說因為普遍來講這幾年大家的健康的因素這個解釋的空間太多了我們大概很難從數字直接呈現但目前來講有沒有針對這件事情稍微了解一下為什麼這個東西的那個"},{"start":362.378,"end":383.141,"text":"那一個少的人數會變多那個比例會變多就能夠回答的回答就可以就幾個部分跟您報告您看到現在上面那個紅色跟藍色的差異最主要是兩個部分就是畢業前的體檢我們入學的時候體檢主要是畢業之後的最主要兩個原因是一個是近視"},{"start":383.982,"end":402.161,"text":"当然因为学生滑手机的多嘛所以说近视的比例高那另外一个最主要的原因是心脏的部分对对我也有听说对我们要上飞行线要做离心肌的这个测试所以说很多一部分是在心脏的检查没有过那这个部分是必须在飞行就是在三年级"},{"start":402.982,"end":424.01,"text":"結束之前才能做的一個部分那您剛剛提的這個意願的部分這個我們在每一屆的飛行生他的淘汰的狀況我們會有做一個統計那可能也是因為現在少子化抗壓性的問題這個部分確實也有比之前的比例要稍微高一點所以因為有時候心臟的因素就很多元嘛 對不對就很難去講"},{"start":425.31,"end":450.581,"text":"那我們也不是說要去懷疑或什麼之類的但是我們就想因為今天談到家計談到福利這一塊就想說他們對他們未來的期待到底是什麼因為畢竟他來參加應該是非常有意願那有沒有可能他這個意願在中間降低數字不一定代表但是就像剛剛講的做實際的調查有可能會知道是不是有人他就是不想他不想再繼續了那不想再繼續如果人數變多的話我覺得這還是一個警訊那"},{"start":452.202,"end":470.384,"text":"可以有補的方法當然是最好但是這個警訊我覺得要正視如果是福利如果真的去調查過後如果是跟福利相關的我們當然是跟加擠跟福利這個部分還要再做滾動式的檢討但如果今天是像剛剛講的健康的因素比如說像近視或者說跟心臟有關那是不是可以考慮更早的時候發現"},{"start":471.465,"end":494.025,"text":"比如說他因為剛剛講的那一個心臟相關的這些測試他可能是後面那一次他在測嘛是不是他前面那一次沒有測沒有那如果說他早一點發現的話那他也可以早一點就解脫嘛他也知道他再過幾年他的心臟他已經那個時候測已經出現了問題那這樣的話我們才可以真的知道就是你前後都有測一樣的那我們就可以真的知道到底是健康的問題還是醫院的問題"},{"start":495.686,"end":517.118,"text":"我覺得這個要正視因為你看2021可能還好你看22 23它就是一直加大那這個我們可能要稍微了解一下狀況但也有可能像你講的有可能是壓力那現在這個國際情勢不同啊跟他當時進來的預想不同啊我覺得這個都應該去討論謝謝 謝惟恩如果說有在這個相關調查的時候我們隨時滾動式的來看一下到底真實的原因是什麼謝謝"},{"start":518.799,"end":536.672,"text":"再來就是目前因為院長有提到明年要擴大城鎮的任性演習裡面權動署有提到說要檢視各類動員法規加強宣導台灣全民安全指引深化任性演習效能"},{"start":538.353,"end":566.198,"text":"這個部分是有因為他的第一句話講了要動員法規那這邊我有點不太了解就是說是要動哪些法規是有想要修哪些法規嗎目前盤點了有什麼在今年的話內政部的部分就是民防有兩個一個是民防團隊編組訓練演習服務情急支援軍事勤務辦法另外一個就是那個替代義男服役期滿後"},{"start":567.739,"end":575.856,"text":"召集胡情的實施辦法這兩條所以都是辦法層級他沒有需要到這個直接立法院這一邊的修法嗎"},{"start":578.217,"end":605.806,"text":"對現在是暫時是在辦法這個層級上面好那因為時間的關係我快速問一下下一題因為這一題我覺得是稍微要注意的一點就是目前高雄左營的這一個都市計畫那因為有這一個蠻多的這一個反應是在講說左營軍港的周邊的限高的問題因為它現在本來就已經有蠻多高樓在那一邊那新的都市計畫又會有更多的高樓那這個高樓呢目前在法規上的限制它這個"},{"start":607.146,"end":634.555,"text":"因為之前我們在討論這個要塞堡壘什麼等等之類的還有討論到這個關鍵基礎設施但這個是屬於鄰近的土地那鄰近的土地的開發案他從上往下看的時候看這個軍港是一覽無遺那如果說他有更多的都市計畫的話這邊有沒有跟地方政府去討論有沒有針對那個鄰近土地的那個都市新的那個都市開發案他們的限高或他們的視野這個部分有沒有先去溝通因為這是即將要發生的事情"},{"start":637.951,"end":661.929,"text":"因為我們左營有所謂的直升機的一個飛航路徑所以我們目前針對直升機的飛航路徑周邊有做了一個限高跟必要的一個查查跟巡檢那也依照這是用飛行路徑去限制飛行路徑去看那因為旁邊的這個路徑這個高樓的部分這個應該也一段時間了然後又會有新的"},{"start":662.449,"end":672.907,"text":"所以我覺得這個可能要去了解一下那了解一下之後我們後續來做最終我覺得這件事情蠻重要的因為之前在花蓮的時候我們有問過類似的問題那現在是在高雄那因為時間關係先問到這邊謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}