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它會按鈴兩聲現在我們這裡報告我們的內政部吳常務次長報告其他的單位報告請自行參與及刊登公報請吳次長"},{"start":2112.048,"end":2135.444,"text":"主席各位委員女士各位先生還有各位學者大家好首先感謝各位委員對於國籍議題的關心跟支持並表達最大的謝神那今天貴文會召開國籍法的修法公聽會本部應邀列席報告那有關今日公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部的意見依序說明如下也敬請各位委員來指教"},{"start":2137.112,"end":2144.527,"text":"公職人員負有國家忠誠義務世界各國對於規劃取得國籍或雙重國籍者擔任其公職人員之規範為何"},{"start":2146.343,"end":2171.998,"text":"公職人員代表國家履行的公共任務與國家之間很處於特別緊密的忠誠與信任關係此為維繫國家安全與運作之基時世界各國對於雙重國籍或規劃者擔任公職之規範部分國家採取嚴格單一國家制如印尼、馬來西亞等國家僅限於具備該國籍者得擔任公職"},{"start":2173.171,"end":2192.932,"text":"那另有部分國家則採取對機敏植物設限制度如美國針對國家安全情報的職位原為雙重國籍事後放棄他國國籍者亦可能因為通過安全調查而無法擔任機敏性質之公職澳洲憲法更明文禁止雙重國籍者擔任國會議員"},{"start":2194.724,"end":2212.346,"text":"各國就其國家利益跟憲政體制的標準及維護國家與公務人員間的忠誠信任關係考量定有任公職者之資格及忠誠度之審查標準是以公職人員賦有對國家之忠誠義務此為普世認同之價值"},{"start":2213.885,"end":2238.865,"text":"我國國籍法在89年2月9號增訂第20條的規定那將原國籍法施行條例有關雙重國籍擔任公職之解除及免除規定納入明文禁止具有雙重國籍之國民擔任公職並明確規範民選公職人員解除公職之權責機關就其立法意旨細緻制度上來避免忠誠義務衝突之發生"},{"start":2241.109,"end":2265.838,"text":"我賦予九十年六月二十號修正新增兼具外國國籍者擬任公職時應於就職前辦理放棄國籍並在一年內完成上司國籍程序該次修正是應放棄外國國籍程序需時故原給予一年之緩衝時間雙重國籍之國人擬任公職必須於就道任前辦理放棄外國國籍"},{"start":2267.529,"end":2280.91,"text":"仔細針對全國國民之一致要求無論為原生我國籍者或規劃取得我國身份之新住民皆須於擔任公職前放棄他國國籍以表達對我國唯一之效忠"},{"start":2282.878,"end":2297.791,"text":"民選公職具有民意代表性及高度政治性並享有一定之決策權利為國家權利與人民意志的直接體現必須積極考量國家整體利益並採取一切有利於國家之行為與決策"},{"start":2299.412,"end":2321.764,"text":"具雙重國籍者對其所兼具國籍身份之國家亦另附有忠誠義務倘容許雙重國籍擔任民選公職將產生雙重效忠所致的利益衝突國籍法第20條的規定就是從制度上來排除發生忠誠義務衝突之預防性做法旨在維護我國國家利益二"},{"start":2324.785,"end":2351.06,"text":"現行具外國國籍者、規劃者或雙重國籍者擔任公職相關規定是否妥適國籍法第20條規定國民兼具外國國籍者預認公職應於就到職前辦理放棄外國國籍是為確保國民擔任公職之國民忠誠義務原預認公職者凡具有我國國籍以外之國籍均應放棄"},{"start":2352.383,"end":2369.952,"text":"按司法院釋制第768號解釋理由國籍法第20條規定限制兼具外國國籍者擔任公務人員有維護國家與公務人員兼之忠誠與信任關係之考量目的尋屬正當且其手段與目的之達成具有"},{"start":2371.001,"end":2392.419,"text":"合理的關聯民選公職人員之決定具有不同程度的法律效力跟社會影響力其是否做出唯一有利於我國之決定舒適商榷不應以廣納人才為由加以開放令我國國籍法要求規劃者應放棄原有國籍法治上完成後"},{"start":2393.442,"end":2422.9,"text":"而對國家的單一效忠程序取等擔任民選公職應無疑議自兼具雙重國籍者來避免雙重效忠產生之利益衝突亦不宜開放此等身份之人擔任民選公職三中國大陸人民取得台灣人民身份後任公職的思考中共政權多年來對台進行文攻武嚇統戰滲透以嚴重危害我國主權與安全"},{"start":2423.636,"end":2448.713,"text":"屬境外敵對勢力行政院秘書長112年5月24號函中國大陸人民不具我國國籍非屬我國國民又依1930年4月12號海牙簽訂之關於國籍法衝突的若干問題公約中宣示國籍必有原則則取等取得台灣人民身份前當具有中國大陸之國籍"},{"start":2450.407,"end":2478.588,"text":"取等取得台灣人民身份後身份故以轉化為我國國民違依上開公約規定是否具有某一特定國家國籍的問題應依照該國的法律予以斷定凡具有兩個以上國籍的人得被他所具有國籍的每一個國家視為各該國家的國民則取等如未放棄中國大陸國籍則能具有其國籍按"},{"start":2479.503,"end":2499.926,"text":"兩岸條例第一條後段有明定本條例未規定者適用其他有關法令之規定原中國大陸人民身份轉化後如意參選公職須符合兩岸條例第21條在台涉及滿十年之規定當選後就到職前亦與一般國人相同"},{"start":2501.161,"end":2523.399,"text":"需符合國籍法第20條禁止具有雙重國籍者擔任我國公職資格規定取等擔任民選公職躺就職後能具中國國籍將同時附有向我國及中共效忠的義務自身雙重效忠的情形顯與國籍法所規定欲規範公職人員忠誠義務有嚴重衝突"},{"start":2526.633,"end":2550.503,"text":"原中國大陸人民在未放棄該國國籍前比如 據《中國國家安全法》《國家情報法》《反間諜法》等法律附有配合該國情報單位要求提供情報的義務倘原中國大陸人民在台擔任民選公職則同時擁有中華民國國籍和該國國籍即會因此而面臨法律義務上之衝突"},{"start":2551.584,"end":2579.84,"text":"那亦可能也因擔任我國民選公職而遭中共政權要求提供相關線索 證據來嚴重影響國家安全原國際法20條的規定除維護我國國家利益之外亦保護取等擔任民選公職可能面臨之矛盾及風險取得我國民身份之新住民除有法律特別規定外亦與國人同享權利保障亦承擔相同的法律義務"},{"start":2581.243,"end":2608.107,"text":"要求原中國大陸人民遵守相同規範並非歧視謹記確保每位公職人員都只忠誠於一個國家避免利益衝突和效忠的矛盾堂只為原中國大陸人民修法免除其單一忠誠責任除徒增我國社會對來自中國大陸之新住民忠誠疑慮亦使原中國大陸之民選公職人員蒙受有"},{"start":2609.315,"end":2636.182,"text":"特殊待遇之標籤此舉對於台灣社會之和諧進步並無注意綜上所述為堅守民選公職人員肩負國家忠誠義務之基本原則及維護國家利益能應維持現行雙重國籍不得擔任公職做法自制度上排除發生忠誠義務衝突之情形以上說明敬請各位委員及各位專家學者指教謝謝"},{"start":2639.204,"end":2653.21,"text":"謝謝 感謝吳長治的報告剛才陳副教授國立成功大學法律學系歡迎你來現在請專家下車發現請第一位吳教授"},{"start":2666.915,"end":2668.616,"text":"雲林科技大學感謝主席、各位專家、各位政府、各位記者我直接用國語說"},{"start":2688.306,"end":2702.311,"text":"我有提供這個書面的資料所以也請大家可以看到吳威智所提供的書面資料我是雲林科技大學科技法律研究所教授也是中華人權協會的副理事長我所提供的資料裡面第一個部分我就是從"},{"start":2703.711,"end":2709.852,"text":"那個海牙國際法公約是不是接受或者是容忍雙重國籍的存在我們看到1930年的國際公約雖然是主張國際單一原則但是呢許多國家實質上是有這個容忍雙重國籍的存在而且這種容忍雙重國籍的存在是以規劃取得公民的身份為主所以呢"},{"start":2730.336,"end":2733.118,"text":"如果以雙重國籍在我們國家並沒有違反國際的海牙公約那麼第二個我們從公民與政治權利國際公約來看看公民權是不是應該擁有這樣的一個權利我們看到聯合國在公民政治權利國際公約的第25條裡面特別規定凡屬公民注意是公民權喔"},{"start":2754.799,"end":2770.585,"text":"無分任何的身份不受無理的限制均應有他的權利跟機會同時他在該條裡面有規定有三種權利各位第一個就是直接或經由自由選舉的代表參與正式"},{"start":2771.385,"end":2773.587,"text":"第二個權利是實施選舉投票跟被選舉權第三個以一般平等的條件符本國之公職所以事實上我們國家在民國98年的時候已經訂立了國際人權兩公約實行法"},{"start":2790.362,"end":2803.062,"text":"已經把這個國際公約放到我們國內作為它的一個法律所以公民權尤其是參政的公民權是不該被剝奪的而且它只要是公民任何人都該保障的"},{"start":2803.874,"end":2828.926,"text":"那麼我們看到司法院4日329號的解釋跟最高行政法院103年的決議它同時有規定這個是有公民權的保障我們政府要實施這個公約那另外因此我認為無論是今天在講要修改國際法或者修改兩岸人民關係條例其實它都在保障公民權"},{"start":2830.006,"end":2834.269,"text":"那麼第三個我們從第三個部分我們從兩岸人民關係條例來看它的法制那它的法制從憲法徵修條文已經規定了他說可以訂立特別法來規範所以事實上在憲法裡面就把兩岸人民關係條例定為特別法"},{"start":2848.857,"end":2854.299,"text":"而這個特別法就代表了如果中國大陸人民歸屬來台的時候那麼他就是用這個特別法來做規範所以只要沒有修憲 沒有修改這個法律他仍然還是特別法因此這個特別法把如何參選 如何來從事公職都已經完整的規範了"},{"start":2871.187,"end":2874.391,"text":"所以當然有幾點要注意呢第一點我就提出來那是不是曾經有改過這個憲法或改過法律嗎那都沒有啊那都沒有的情況當中你只能要保障他這個權利你只能合理的限制"},{"start":2888.166,"end":2892.247,"text":"可是合理的限制不能限制到沒有這個權利如果沒有這個權利就是違憲違法了第二個我們看到條例裡面第21條也規範的陸配了參政權也就是說涉及滿10年他就有參政權"},{"start":2904.992,"end":2918.903,"text":"那麼這是憲法比例原則的考量也是歸於穩定的考量事實上公民權確實可以這樣的考量但是你只能把它嚴謹的縮小你不可以沒有啊沒有就是違憲啊接下來我們從國籍法來看國籍法我有分析八點國籍法我們在2016年國籍法就修正了"},{"start":2929.827,"end":2931.629,"text":"這個國際法的修正已經接納了雙重國旗甚至雙重國旗可以從公職了所以因此呢我們看著這個是一個全球化的一個國際的社會所以在它的第九條國際法第九條"},{"start":2947.245,"end":2952.709,"text":"就允許了這個雙重國籍在他的20條裡面就涉及了公職的相關的規範那麼我們就來看公職的相關規範國籍法第20條告訴你到職一年內要取得相關的證明文件不然就會喪失各位從這裡面你會看得出來原則上我就是接納了雙重國籍的公職"},{"start":2972.822,"end":2977.364,"text":"那麼再重演來規定但是這個原則你不能丟掉原則是可以的這個必須要說因此我們現在想要立法院修法來補足說有一些完全給人家剝奪的部分是不是應該在憲法公民權的保障給人家所以這個修法是應該是正確的"},{"start":2996.311,"end":3003.537,"text":"第二個我們也看到了20條第一項說以擔任者還可以由主管機關的核准來不再只限雖然目前沒有規範陸配的問題但是並不代表說立法院就沒有這個權利來把陸配規範在裡面所以事實上可以修法來使得內政部也作為主管允許的核准機關"},{"start":3022.734,"end":3027.076,"text":"當然我認為也不用內政部啦 為什麼因為你看到二十條第一項的第五款他告訴你還有其他法律另有規定者哇 那等於告訴你其實不用修第一款啦因為為什麼 因為他第五款已經把保留了兩岸人民關係條例的陸配公民參政權放在裡面啦"},{"start":3047.367,"end":3051.928,"text":"那麼所以從第四條可以看得出來他的第四項其實是正面肯定的先給你有這樣的一個公職服務權然後再來討論如何來加嚴那麼因此第五項我的文章裡面的第五項可以看得出來這是一個非常特殊的立法技術在106年的時候他說在20條第四項裡面後段加入但其他法律令有規定者"},{"start":3076.815,"end":3094.485,"text":"重啟規定所以這個基本上就是跟他的第1項第5款相互呼應嘛為什麼因為國際法就尊重兩岸人民關係條例為特別法國際法本身就變成了普通法因此他在第20條第1項的第1款第5款以及後面的第4項給了這樣的一個彈性"},{"start":3103.496,"end":3105.698,"text":"所以我認為目前我認為立法院做成決議意見也好修法意見也好都應該保障公民的參政權甚至我認為這十年來法律是一致性的憲法兩岸人民關係條例國際法都沒有三不法律都沒有再修了"},{"start":3124.231,"end":3126.793,"text":"同樣一個執政的政府這十年來怎麼會一夕之間做這麼大的轉變怎麼會做這麼公民的這麼大的轉變難道陸配民意代表已經違反了很多法律了嗎那到底案例在哪裡"},{"start":3140.883,"end":3147.665,"text":"所以我認為最好的方法還是比照例如總統已經講說敵對狀態了那麼我們就允許好像類似起義來歸的反共意識一樣我們其實就我們國家政府片面的允許然後使得他的權力能夠保障公民的參政權這是我個人的意見 謝謝"},{"start":3168.312,"end":3192.065,"text":"謝謝我們在這裡請王助理教授中央檢察大學主席在座各位委員然後各位機關長官跟代表然後與會的各位學者參加我是警大助理教授主要國際系主席王志勝"},{"start":3193.673,"end":3218.216,"text":"雖然我平常在節目上不是用這個名字啦不過正式場合我們還是用警大的名義那我的專業在警大因為國境系我們主要就是兩條例移民法國籍法這些相關的東西那以下就今天這個委員會所提要求的這個幾個題目來做相關的說明第一公職人員富有國家忠誠義務世界各國對於規劃取得國籍或雙重國籍的擔任這個公職人的規範為何"},{"start":3220.3,"end":3247.747,"text":"根據我們相關的研究跟中證後面幾位先進也會提到剛才看到像這個陳局長相關的資料也都有提到不過我們基本要分成兩種類型第一種類型我把它叫做全面平等模式也就是不管你是規劃的你是有雙重國籍的還是原生國籍的都可以享有這個同等的公民權那這種國家基本上最著名的幾個國家大概包括了"},{"start":3249.472,"end":3271.428,"text":"英國、法國、紐西蘭等等這些國家然後這些國家有共同的特色包括還有加拿大等等這些國家有共同的特色還有它特殊的歷史因素以當時比較強調整個移民融合的一個過程可發現都是以歐陸國家為主但是另外一種我這邊會跟大家做比較多介紹的"},{"start":3272.463,"end":3300.232,"text":"是所謂的嚴格單一忠誠模式的這樣子的一個這樣子的一個國家那這種國家大概更強調對於國家對於公民對國家的排他性忠誠他通常不承認雙重國籍或者是說他即便接受公民有雙重國籍但是並不接受有雙重國籍的公民來進行參政這些國家可以跟各位做簡單的介紹那這個就發現他其實有一個共同的特色第一個韓國"},{"start":3302.131,"end":3330.457,"text":"韓國基本上對於雙重國籍是非常非常的審慎的那甚至在公職的部分不管是憲法公職選罷法等等之類的都要求他的相關的總統國會議員都必須存韓國籍不能有其他國家國籍新加坡新加坡是也直接嚴禁雙重國籍他要求新加坡的民眾他21歲如果有雙重的話必須選擇單一國籍那既然選擇單一國籍他後面的參政也很清楚就是只有一個國籍只有存新加坡的人才能夠擔任公職"},{"start":3331.977,"end":3351.386,"text":"然後再來以色列以色列大概他鼓勵全球的猶太人回歸到以色列所以他其實在雙重國籍上面本來是沒有做太多的限制的但是對參政是有嚴格的限制的按照這個以色列的基本法的部分國會議員在就職的時候不得保有留外國國籍等等"},{"start":3352.89,"end":3378.887,"text":"還有我們一些熟悉的北歐以及波羅的海國家包括挪威 芬蘭等等國家這幾年雖然開始慢慢承認雙重國籍譬如說這個芬蘭是2003年開始承認雙重國籍可是對於擔任公職或雙重國籍者要擔任公職或君職是有嚴格的規範的譬如說芬蘭因為芬蘭一直擔心它的俄羅斯移民當中的一個芬蘭化所造成的影響"},{"start":3379.861,"end":3403.17,"text":"那這個波羅的海三小國 愛沙尼亞 拉脫沃亞這些波羅的海國家也是因為有相同的狀況有相當比例的這個俄羅斯的族群那還有當時跟俄羅斯之間的關係所以他對於雙重國籍來擔任公職也是採取禁止的一個態度那剛剛最後有提到像一個澳洲澳洲他是比較特殊的案例 他承認雙重國籍"},{"start":3405.278,"end":3434.417,"text":"但是他对他的宪法是明确禁止双重国籍人士担任联邦的议员那甚至说有要求说如果你这个要担任参中议员必须先放弃这个其他的国籍以上这些我所提到的这个严格单一忠诚模式的国家他有几个共同的特色第一个他的国家的这个size国家的这个基本结构都比较小不管是南韩以色列波地海三小国等等等等第二个"},{"start":3434.827,"end":3462.525,"text":"他都有特殊的歷史源源也就是說他其實有面對到外在的這個敵對的壓力或者是擔心透過這種小國寡民透過其他國家的這種大量的移民可能讓這些人參政公職的時候造成這個國家本身的這個安全或中層產生轉變造成衝擊所以例如新加坡例如以色列例如韓國波羅利亞三角國等等"},{"start":3463.005,"end":3479.891,"text":"這些也都是在世界民主國家評比當中相當親近的國家而這些國家採取的是所謂的單一忠誠模式的這樣子的一個限制不管是規劃 限制雙重國籍或者是沒有放棄原有國籍的人來進行參政"},{"start":3481.641,"end":3509.303,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下大家就可以看得到說在這個問題上面對於世界各國對規劃國籍或雙重國籍者擔任公職人員的規範雖然有兩大不同的類型一種看起來像英國、法國這些國家 加拿大這些鼓勵紐西蘭這些鼓勵移民國家當中它的歷史源源是可以讓雙重國籍擔任公職可是跟台灣更接近更相像的南韓、新加坡、以色列"},{"start":3510.003,"end":3535.352,"text":"波爾地亞三小國北歐國家等等這些先進民主國家也都是採取嚴格的單一這個國籍來才進行這個公職的擔任這是從國際比較的角度來看所以這就回到第二個問題也就是第二個問題討論到說現行具有外國國籍者規劃者或雙重國籍擔任公職的相關規範是否妥適那就是我們在討論的國籍法第20條的部分我相信如果依照"},{"start":3535.939,"end":3559.793,"text":"同樣的比較剛剛提到這些國家的規範的時候就會發現說台灣的國籍法當中我們一般講說是漠視雙重國籍我們並沒有刻意的去排除或者是明文的說你可以有或可以沒有因為是屬人跟屬地主義之間的造成的這樣子的一個模糊空間但是國籍法20條剛剛吳偉智老師也很清楚的強調他其實很清楚的"},{"start":3560.985,"end":3584.011,"text":"要求說如果你是有雙重國籍的這個身份的這樣子的人要擔任公職的話必須先放棄或者必須放棄這個國籍那你說現在的現在的相關規範看剛剛我們所提到的這些小型先進民主國家規範是完全一致的那這樣的規範當然我們整體來看是妥適的一個狀況因為這樣會牽扯到國籍化因為牽扯到這個國家的能跟忠誠義務我完全贊成"},{"start":3586.734,"end":3601.452,"text":"應該要用平等權來看待所有這個成為台灣這個國民的相關的公民權但是如果今天只為了這個中國籍的這樣子的人士去做例外的排除的話那請問新住民怎麼辦"},{"start":3602.162,"end":3624.195,"text":"其他的新住民怎麼辦所有的新住民應該是要一致平等的狀況來進行這樣子的一個適用如果你只為了這個陸配去取消或者是在國籍法做排除那請問其他的新住民放棄國籍這情何以堪這個平等權是要一體適用的情況而參政權他基本上本來就不是一個"},{"start":3625.69,"end":3644.958,"text":"這個他本來就應該是一個可以做因為國家忠誠可以做相當應限制的這樣子的一個基本權利所以這個部分其實也沒有太大的一個問題所以整個來看不論是從國際上的整個先進民主國家的相關的規範或者是現有國籍法對於"},{"start":3646.938,"end":3667.067,"text":"這個所有新住民平等的參政權的這個要求乃至於在因為這樣子所以可以讓這個所有的新住民在參政的時候確保他的國家忠誠義務當然包括中配在內我覺得這一系列過程其實是非常非常完整的所以因此國際法並沒有修正的必要 謝謝謝謝 人家歡迎委員"},{"start":3683.568,"end":3697.713,"text":"首先謝謝王美惠召委安排這個非常重要的國際法的修法公聽會那關於呢我看到我們本院的國民黨籍的立委傅坤祺"},{"start":3698.433,"end":3717.298,"text":"他想要修國際法第一條的條文修正通過那我認為如果這個條文真的修正通過了那造成的傷害會非常的大那為什麼任何一個民主國家他對於原生的國民跟境外人士參與民主機制"},{"start":3718.018,"end":3742.607,"text":"都會有不同的設計那另外就是我們也知道參政權其實是一個光譜非常廣的概念你從投票到被選舉權包含參選到任職事實上是都會有不同的設計那所以呢就是說如果傅昆祺委員想要修正國際法第一條之後造成的傷害我覺得第一個"},{"start":3744.548,"end":3762.882,"text":"這個它影響了國籍法的核心理念如果我們看一下國籍法它內容有非常的多它針對擔任公職的要求是單一忠誠那如果國籍法被傅坤祺委員這樣一修之後它排除掉大陸地區人民的公職參選及任職資格的話"},{"start":3764.924,"end":3781.193,"text":"造成的傷害就是那未來我們可能會有跟沈博洋委員一起在外交國防委員會的立委他甚至是有雙重的政治認同那這樣子對我們的一個傷害難道不是非常大嗎"},{"start":3781.693,"end":3802.539,"text":"因為他迫害了國籍法的精神今天國籍法就是中華民國的國籍的國民擔任公職就是單一忠誠那這件國籍法的核心精神裡面就被他破壞了所以一個修法一個條文破壞了國籍法的核心精神我認為是非常的不能接受"},{"start":3803.599,"end":3818.164,"text":"第二點是公平性那這次修法宣稱是要對特定對象的參政權鬆綁那事實上我們來看一下所有的外國移民就是來到台灣他參政都要放棄原國民那台灣人自己也要到滿20歲才有完整的參政權譬如說18歲只有能夠公投的權利"},{"start":3825.586,"end":3847.378,"text":"那可是來自大陸地區的人民卻能夠保留中國戶籍 擔任公職可是台灣人卻就你算是翹鼠的都擔任公職都必須要放棄他的雙重國籍那這難道不是在台灣人在我們的國民當中變成是有一種創造一個新的不公平嗎"},{"start":3848.318,"end":3867.005,"text":"有人宣稱這是要降低特定族群的參政阻礙我認為這個修法反而是傷害了我們社會內部的信任跟制度的公平所以在此呼籲我們朝野的不分黨派的立委要守護中華民國國民的參政公平"},{"start":3867.905,"end":3872.468,"text":"最後關於參政權是不是被剝奪被阻礙我想國民黨委員一直聲稱說這個修法是要維護中國及配偶的參政權就像我剛講的參政權是選舉罷免創制覆決選舉權又包含被選舉跟選舉他人"},{"start":3888.519,"end":3906.429,"text":"那在两岸人民关系条例中如果我们仔细来看它是一个特别法它是有谈到的一个基本上是参选可是国际法讲的是当选大家都知道参选的人可能只有10%不到对不对王美惠 赵伟非常的知道会当选"},{"start":3907.089,"end":3930.482,"text":"所以參選跟當選當選公職又有民選的跟政治任命的是非常不一樣的那既然是中華民國的國民都應該適用這個普通法國籍法怎麼能夠隨意排除呢最後我也要提到一個國安風險跟保障我們自己的國民我們都知道剛剛提到愛沙尼亞拉脫維亞跟俄羅斯的關係"},{"start":3932.043,"end":3949.719,"text":"这个PRC对我们的敌意我们都非常的了解我们务实的从政治实务跟边境管理台湾跟中国互不隶属或者你要说ROC跟PRC互不隶属这是客观的事实这个PRC中国政权对我们有高度的敌意"},{"start":3950.659,"end":3965.104,"text":"一旦擔任公職之後如果我們允許我們的國民不放棄另一個國家或者你要說另外一個政治實體的戶籍你不是就是傷害他讓他可能會在執行公務的時候受到政治威脅嗎"},{"start":3966.044,"end":3985.77,"text":"那這樣子其實是傷害中華民國國民規劃後來自PRC的國民行使他完整的參政權我認為對所有規劃中華民國的就是外籍配偶包含中國籍配偶這樣子的修法才是傷害他們完整的參政權以上謝謝我們這裡送禮是台灣安保協會"},{"start":4000.626,"end":4025.775,"text":"主席各位委員各位行政部門的長官各位學者先進女士先生大家好台灣安保協會理事宋澄報告我以下報告是基於針對一個法律研究者的做分析跟我的任職單位或是跟我來往的單位無關我有下面四點的報告第一點是參政權是一個公民權而非"},{"start":4026.417,"end":4047.69,"text":"基本人權並沒有現行法制在原則上面剝奪了某一個背景人員他的參與中華民國政治的權利這個其實是不存在的第二個是目前的修法建議說要對於大陸人民取得台灣身份之後"},{"start":4049.184,"end":4076.592,"text":"需要如果要任職或是參政然後必須要放棄原國籍不適用於大陸人民這樣的修法的建議我認為是有問題的並非一個好的方式也不是負責任政府或是負責任國會或是政黨應該要採取的態度第三點現在涉及的議題非官修憲也並不是法律衝突"},{"start":4077.216,"end":4100.306,"text":"目前國籍法二十條適用於大陸地區人民取得台灣身份的人民並不會因為憲法規定或是因為兩岸人民關係條例之規定而有排除適用第四點跟各位探討一下可行的替代模式當然第四點要尊重主管機關的意見"},{"start":4102.603,"end":4131.649,"text":"我们先探讨一下现在的参政权他现在是大概什么样性质我会认为他其实不是基本人权是公民权如果依照国际人权的标准特别是公正公约第25条他规定说人民有投票权参政权备选举权那么他也包括服工职的权利或是参政竞选的权利那他基本上会认为说他是一个依照国家的宪法法律以及制度所赋予的而不是他的基本人权因此呢"},{"start":4132.13,"end":4158.808,"text":"他只要有正當的理由有合理的標準不會過客而有客觀的標準例如說規定某一個年齡以上或是居住某一個時間或是要取得某一種資格例如說語言的能力才能夠服公職或是才能夠參政這些只要是國家認為是合理的並且他沒有歧視的問題比如說對於特定族群適用對於其他特定不適用"},{"start":4159.682,"end":4187.861,"text":"没有歧视的问题的话国家是有裁量空间的是有一定的行程空间那么就我国而言当然就是我国向来的制度包括国籍法20条包括两岸人民关系条例关于大陆地区取得台湾户籍之人民服工职之权利例如在大法官释字第618号说明因为国家有他的考虑例如说有因为任工职立刻跟国家产生公法上之义务"},{"start":4188.308,"end":4214.434,"text":"並且有忠誠之義務的要求因此呢對於他取得戶籍之後十年之後才能夠服工職大法官員是合憲的並沒有限制這個就明顯表示依照國家的制度他是有一定的合理的標準之下可以限制然後並且採取符合國際人權公約的標準因此我跟前面的先進不太一樣是我認為說現行的不管是兩岸人民天外協會國際法20條"},{"start":4216.175,"end":4242.575,"text":"並沒有違反基本人權保障或是剝奪參政權或是違反國際人權的情形這是第一點第二點目前修法的建議會有問題是有以下幾個問題第一點就如范雲委員剛剛所說的他其實是一個差別待遇他是說針對特定的就是說中國大陸人民取得台灣戶籍的人才排除適用那麼對於其他"},{"start":4243.772,"end":4271.646,"text":"原本受国际法20条适用的所谓兼具其他外国国籍的人立刻就产生一个差别待遇虽然说它并不是剥夺性但是它是一个差别待遇所以有平等权的问题所以我们会问说为什么要对于特定的族群有不同待遇这个不同待遇表面上是有利的但是实际上是一个差别实际上差别就会有一个标签或是把它相隔对待的问题因此是不是符合我国宪法上平等权的保障"},{"start":4272.168,"end":4288.724,"text":"深有疑義第二點是國際上觀瞻也會問公義到底何在如果我們這樣採取似乎就是認為說目前的狀況就是有剝奪他參政權的情形但是正如我剛剛第一點分析其實並沒有所以立法院如果萬一通過這樣國際上會認為說原來"},{"start":4291.024,"end":4316.697,"text":"中國大陸人民在台灣的參政權是受到歧視受到限制如果各位結合中國現在在國際上的宣傳他一直說中國大陸的人民在台灣受到歧視事實上我們都知道這個東西是有嚴格的標準如果他有系統性的被排除或是被不利的對待那我們可以說有歧視但是在國外的這種假訊息一直宣傳說有這樣的情形的時候"},{"start":4317.205,"end":4343.961,"text":"有可能造成我國內部的分裂或是造成國際上的關切這件事情並不好並結合目前在立法院中種種的議案國際上會請問說到底怎麼了台灣為什麼會在某些的行為上台灣的國會會採取這樣的立場那似乎跟國際上面觀點非常非常不一樣所以我認為目前的這個修法建議不是一個負責任的好方法"},{"start":4345.011,"end":4373.389,"text":"第三个这件事情并非修宪我们都知道如果陆委会官员会如果说错纠正我依照我国的制度其实中国大陆人民是一个非常特殊的地方他并非本国人并非外国人是中国大陆人民所以他并不一定说是有所谓兼具国籍或是要放弃国籍的问题现在他的参政的是因为我们在一体的要求之下"},{"start":4373.922,"end":4402.735,"text":"因為中國特別的情形造成他無法放棄國籍或是依照中國的國籍認定他會依照他的出生地他的血緣濫用性的把其他國家認為他有國籍的人套與中國的國籍問題在中國北京政府而不是問題在我國法律這件事情非常重要所以並不是一定要修憲而兩岸條例的"},{"start":4403.66,"end":4428.898,"text":"也沒有排除國際法20條的適用最後一些是替代方案我們來做一些探討有可能是我會認為說既然現行法是合憲符合國際人權條約也沒有剝奪人權這問題因此我們必須要尊重現行法既有的秩序國際法20條行之有年而且已經成為我國法秩序的一部分並且主管機關今天在國會中間聽證說"},{"start":4432.116,"end":4460.472,"text":"證實說這件事情對於主管機關認為是有價值有法益必要的那我會認為說要尊重主管行政機關的意見那麼這是第一個可行方案第二個可行方案是20條的解釋國際法20條第一項規定說中華人民中華民國人民取得外國國籍者那這件事情通常我們會認為說原本就有中華民國國籍只是他另外取得了一個國籍那明顯中國大陸人民並不是這個樣子"},{"start":4461.621,"end":4483.099,"text":"所以中國大陸人民比較是第四項他所謂艱鉅的情形他必須要放棄的情形那麼我們是不是對於他的放棄在承認到中國大陸給他的困難中間採取一些務實的一些替代方案是不是有這樣的可能第三個就是修兩岸人民條例但是把這個戶籍跟國籍把它統一化但是要尊重主管機關的意見謝謝大家"},{"start":4487.714,"end":4509.544,"text":"謝謝我們家陳前局長立法院法治局主席"},{"start":4510.686,"end":4534.051,"text":"各位委員 各位學者專家 各位先進 大家好我是立法院法治局局長退休今天很榮幸能夠應邀來參加宮廷會也提供一些給各位參考作為我們國際法內政委員會這次非常重視法律的修改特地舉辦宮廷會"},{"start":4536.107,"end":4563.279,"text":"那我首先是因為有兩個提綱那這個提綱是主要這個第一就是按照這個提綱來表示就是說各民主國家的一些制度還有我國現行的法律體系還有一個制度設計還有實務運作方面那做分析跟建議以作為後續修法的參考那有關這個取得國籍我想這個簡報就各位看一下"},{"start":4565.039,"end":4576.343,"text":"這個一般來講像主要的一個這個忠誠義務一定不能有雙層國籍我想這個是都有必要的那主要國家那當"},{"start":4579.025,"end":4608.405,"text":"必須說有接受規劃的這個也是不是說全面禁止那陸配身份他的來源大概就是說依據憲法增修條文第11條的規定還有兩岸條例那不是他本身因為我們兩岸治權互不隸屬那所以這個不適用這個國際法第20條那另外一個有關修法的建議我這個報告會再提出來"},{"start":4609.437,"end":4611.705,"text":"那這個我們看首先就國外法制來講那"},{"start":4614.741,"end":4640.892,"text":"第一個英國跟美國還有法國他們大概都有一個可以承認一個雙重國籍那德國還有日本他們原則上這個不贊成但是如果說有經過規劃之後就是對國家表示忠誠我想就比較沒有一個限制所以說但是一般來講現在都敏感性的一個植物他做會安全審查"},{"start":4641.601,"end":4645.081,"text":"那但是不是對規劃身份來做全面禁止"},{"start":4646.089,"end":4675.571,"text":"那我國任職這個就是公職任用的法律體系這個大概第一個選辦法還有一個公務人員任用是公務人員任用法第28條規定還有一個特殊職務他當然是有一個特別的規定還有一個安全審查那另外一個目前這個體系大概已經相當完整了那對於這個考試的資格什麼那些都有限制就是說是我們本國國民那所以"},{"start":4676.516,"end":4695.405,"text":"一定要是我們國民你才有具備這個任用資格那核心的一個爭議我想這個也是這次辦公聽會主要的一個目的那我想這個陸配到底是不是外國人那當然是可能會有一個不同的看法那我剛"},{"start":4696.209,"end":4710.965,"text":"跟各位報告過了憲法增修條文第11條是特別特別授權制定我們那個兩岸關係條例那所以說目前來講大陸地區人民不是一般的外國人那權利義務"},{"start":4712.106,"end":4730.837,"text":"那屬於這個特別法的體系所以外國人必須要透過規劃來取得這個國籍那是適用這個國籍法那陸配的話他是要先定居然後取得這個戶籍之後他才能這個做一個轉換這是屬於兩岸條例的一個規定"},{"start":4733.854,"end":4749.284,"text":"那這個有關這個行政含釋那目前來講這個國際法20條他是這個沒有錯但是如果說外國人規劃那這個可能比較不適合因為我們國際法是解決這個國籍那個規劃的問題"},{"start":4752.006,"end":4768.46,"text":"那另外一個就是說按照這個現狀的這個規定來講你要取得這個放棄這個中國國籍證明可能也是完成不可能任務比較不容易因為他不願意所以說我們才會發生目前幾個案例"},{"start":4768.9,"end":4788.733,"text":"就是說要解除這個他的相關的一個村里長的公職或者其他民意代表的一個公職那這個規定大概我們也認為說他這個人這個用行政含釋來這個限制這個因為公民參政權是我們憲法第17條所保障的那你這樣來限制可能是不是比較不妥當"},{"start":4789.775,"end":4818.826,"text":"那所以說有感覺說我們的國民的一個參政權一定都要有但是在這個身份取得的轉換方面可能必須要做更周延的一個配套那目前這個有關兩岸關係條例其實它在第21條第22條它對陸配的一個參政那個就是參選已經有做一個相當相當的一個規定"},{"start":4819.594,"end":4842.194,"text":"那它的主要的目的它裡面有限制譬如說滿10年取得身份證滿10年之後那個可以參選 任工職滿20年可以特定的一個職務那這個規定大概就是說我剛剛有補充一份資料那這個任職規定的一個說明"},{"start":4843.052,"end":4855.48,"text":"那當然兩岸條例21條他的確他有規定的一些項目我現在簡單的跟各位報告這個任職的限制他只是措辭不是用任職兩個字"},{"start":4857.204,"end":4873.044,"text":"那我們21條表面上寫了不得登記為公職候選人那還有不得擔任公教或公營事業機構人員不得擔任情報國防機關某些職務但這些內容本質上都是任職"},{"start":4874.686,"end":4900.967,"text":"必須具備的一個基本門檻那只是說在立法技術上的一個使用這個公職候選人他必須要取得參政的資格因為你沒有登記參選就不可能當選那所以當選後才能任職那擔任公教公營人員那就等於是直接任職那特殊國安敏感職務的話那就是任職敏感職務的限制所以我們在第21條裡面規範所謂的一個"},{"start":4904.352,"end":4931.786,"text":"參選資格他是規範任職的資格而且任職限制非常的明確那只是條文因為立法技術上的關係那沒有列出任職這兩個字但是效果完全相同那第二個就是說登記為公職候選人與任職的法律關係參選資格登記那一定要登記我剛有報告過了你必須要先登記之後才有參選資格"},{"start":4934.229,"end":4961.26,"text":"那所以這個是任職另外我引到這個有關司法院釋制第385號解釋它裡面提到權利義務相關連資事項法律應適用保持整體性及權利義務平衡不得任意割裂私用那既然我們這個相關的一個制度這個在我們兩岸關係條例第21條第12條都有相關規定所以"},{"start":4962.133,"end":4985.879,"text":"已經就大陸地區人民建立完整的特別法秩序就必須要依兩岸條例統一適用而不得再以國際法第20條吝嗇限制割裂的規定那另外有關這個立法的建議方向就是明確界定國際法20條的適用對象那第二個就是我們要陸配參政規範因優先回歸兩岸的民情關係條例"},{"start":4987.455,"end":5008.987,"text":"那未來制度這個希望期待本次的修法仍在委員跟行政部門的理性對話中擬請體系適用的界限形成兼顧國家安全與基本權保障的共識性方案為未來制度奠定一致合憲且可長久運作的法治基礎那以上報告敬請各位指教謝謝"},{"start":5020.35,"end":5022.972,"text":"謝謝我們家沈博洋委員謝謝主席那謝謝委員會召委安排這樣的一個公聽會我覺得蠻重要的因為國民黨提出這一個國際法的這個修正那的確會造成一個國安的危機那也很可惜的就是說我看"},{"start":5046.991,"end":5066.953,"text":"我看國民黨的立委還沒有來所以呢這個不知道是不是要放生但總之呢這是一個重要議題那我們要先來從廣一點的維度來看就是說呢這整件事情中國的配偶如果要參政他其實有很多階段第一個階段就是他要先取得身份證沒有身份證的話接下來都沒有"},{"start":5067.492,"end":5090.449,"text":"所以第一個階段取得身份證第二個階段他要去登記參選第三個階段如果他當選了當選了之後他還要任職 要就任這三個是不同的階段這三個在法律上都是有不同的效果的規定所以絕對不能夠混為一談否則這些不同的法律針對剛剛講的不同的事項做規定就變成沒有意義了"},{"start":5091.246,"end":5109.369,"text":"那我們先來看第一個階段第一個階段叫取得身份證取得身份證國民黨日前提出的中配六改四就是針對取得身份證他想要讓中國的配偶更快的取得身份證當時的這個理由是說想要去對齊其他這一個外國配偶的規定這其實是個假議題"},{"start":5110.51,"end":5128.263,"text":"為什麼呢因為今天不管你是用什麼3加2啦3加1啦4加2啦等等之類的大家要知道一般不是中國的這個外國配偶他因為在這個階段他就要回去做國籍的處理而這個時候呢在每個國家都需要很長的一段時間"},{"start":5129.344,"end":5147.123,"text":"所以真正他所需要的時間絕對不是四年那麼簡單不是法律規定的四年他還必須要加上他在自己的國家要去處理他的國籍戶籍所以他的時間會拉到六年七年而中國的配偶反而在這個取得身份證沒有這個問題"},{"start":5148.45,"end":5164.64,"text":"所以中配又把它改成6改4想要讓取得身份證這個實質上就是讓他取得身份證的時間縮短這是第一個階段第二個階段叫登記參選登記參選其實不論是哪一個國家的配偶都是一樣都是10年"},{"start":5165.06,"end":5180.278,"text":"而這其實是很公平的沒有任何差異的但在第三個階段就是這一次修法會出現異議的部分就是任職就是他如果當選了他就任的時候他就任他必須要放棄他原來的國籍"},{"start":5180.899,"end":5210.285,"text":"然後提出證明那在一年之內呢要確保真的有放棄國籍在這一件事情上面呢我們是按照國籍法的規定那現在的爭議是什麼呢爭議就是說中國的配偶要去適用兩岸條例的規定但很抱歉兩岸條例就是沒有規定兩岸條例規定的就只有登記第二階段的部分它不包含第三階段的部分這個法律是割裂的所以呢如果它不適用的話那我們就要去參照國籍法原本的精神嘛"},{"start":5210.805,"end":5237.253,"text":"那如果參照國籍法原本的精神他必須要放棄原本的國籍那中國是不是也要放棄這個理由其實根本也不需要上綱到憲法我們只要看境外敵對勢力很多人會講說是因為賴總統宣布了這一個中國是境外敵對勢力搞錯了中國一直都是境外敵對勢力刑法都已經修幾年了反滲透法都已經修幾年了境外敵對勢力就已經貼在法條上面了"},{"start":5237.893,"end":5265.08,"text":"中國的反分裂法就是把台灣當作敵對國家他就是可以武力進攻犯台他當然是境外敵對勢力啊不用講他就是境外敵對勢力那請問針對境外敵對勢力我們對於他們任職要更嚴格還是更寬鬆想也知道要更嚴格嘛這每一個國家每一個人任何的法律學者都應該可以很輕鬆得出這樣的一個結論才對啊更不要講說中國有國家情報法"},{"start":5265.945,"end":5288.408,"text":"國家情報法是針對具有中國國籍的國民可以協助必須要協助中國來收集情報那請問如果他不用放棄他自己國家的國籍的話那他不就可以在這邊收集情報嗎能夠在台灣收集情報然後他又是一個要進攻要佔領要併吞我們的國家這聽起來怎麼樣都沒有道理吧"},{"start":5289.198,"end":5317.351,"text":"我們現在已經沒有把它變嚴格我們現在是參照原本國籍法的精神就是比照一般的狀況來處理而已我覺得沒有變嚴格就已經是一個很大的問題了結果現在還要把它變得更寬鬆那這樣不就是把國家安全的門戶洞開嗎所以我必須要講在這個議題上面在每一個階段都想要去鬆綁這件事情這個絕對會造成國家安全毀滅性的打擊"},{"start":5318.274,"end":5330.984,"text":"不要忘記我們如果按照兩岸就算按照兩岸條例跟情報有關跟機密有關要20年請問立法委員民意代表能夠接觸國家機密會更少嗎還是更多"},{"start":5332.011,"end":5356.187,"text":"有沒有機密的會議能不能夠調機密的資料這個不就是我們的立法委員在為人民做監督的時候能夠取得的嗎所以如果在這一個方面呢甚至沒有到20年以上甚至不能夠來做利益衝突相關的這些規定都付之缺乳的狀況之下就用國際法的方式去把它做修正這個絕對是台灣的重大的國家安全的危機謝謝"},{"start":5363.549,"end":5367.611,"text":"謝謝我們家陳律師 金石法律事務所主席 謝謝主席還有那個貴文會的邀請"},{"start":5387.845,"end":5413.738,"text":"今天本人以這個比較之前的律師的這個新進的律師來角度來以法律的角度來做分析以下的這些分析跟這個本人的政治景象並沒有關聯本人是這個金石國際法律事務所的律師那本人認為是說在這個因為這個前面幾位的這個專家學者還有這個委員他們對於這個世界各國的這些就是針對提綱上面的這些"},{"start":5415.739,"end":5436.087,"text":"這個問題已經有非常多的破話了還有很多的說明了那本人認為是說如果要成就好的修法的話恐怕是需要再把這個爭議的這個基礎去加以釐清那本次的修法爭議其實就是針對這個內政部對於這個國籍法修法國籍法的這個外國國籍這四個字的解讀"},{"start":5436.929,"end":5466.518,"text":"那我们可以看到就是内政部是怎么说明的内政部是说这个依照现在两岸人民关系条例的规定21条只规定到所谓的这个涉及满10年可以登记为公职候选人但一旦当选的公职以后就必须回到这个国籍法20条的规定必须放弃中华民国以外的国籍而这边的中华民国以外国籍呢在这个相关的这些部会的这些产事上好像是包含了这个中华人民共和国国籍"},{"start":5467.045,"end":5478.383,"text":"那在這個對於大陸地區政府來說我們國家的這個政府好像是持著一種雖然討厭但不得不承認其存在的立場那"},{"start":5479.13,"end":5501.012,"text":"這一次的邏輯是什麼這個主管機關的邏輯就是大陸地區人民依照兩岸人民關係條例第21條登記為候選人並當選以後就必須依照國籍法第20條第4項必須放棄外國國籍也就是說依照現在主管機關的認定認為是兩岸人民關係條例似乎就只管到了所謂的登記階段那"},{"start":5501.973,"end":5530.301,"text":"根據我們根據我的這個分析呢我認為這樣子的看法或許值得商榷所以說本次的這個爭議點的就是本次本人認為的爭議點大概有這三個就是第一個也就是說兩岸人民關係條例的第21條第一項的規定的這個擔任公教是否有內含著國籍法20條第4項限制的意思以及第二跟第三所謂的外國國籍是否包含了中華人民共和國國籍還有我國是否肯認這個國籍的存在"},{"start":5531.471,"end":5547.552,"text":"那我們看到兩岸人民關係條例陸委會還有那個內政部在解讀上就是只針對這個不得登記為公職候選人去加以闡釋那在後面的四個字呢擔任公教呢就目前為止的話是看不出有進一步的闡釋"},{"start":5548.633,"end":5573.651,"text":"那我們可以看得出來這個兩岸人民關係條例21條第一項它跟國籍法第20條第一項規定的立法體例與文藝是相同的那在這種情況下可不可以說這是一個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規定的情況而必須依照這個同條例第一條後段的規定去適用國籍法第20條第一項以及第四項呢"},{"start":5574.371,"end":5602.675,"text":"在這種情況下恐怕有所疑問那再者或許可以說在這個情況下國籍法第20條第4項仍舊是這個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規範到的情況所以依照這個同條例第一條後段仍然需要回歸適用國籍法第20條第4項但是國籍法第20條第1項與第4項規定的前提都一致那能否在這個就如剛剛陳局長所說的可不可以這樣子割裂去這樣抽離的去做解釋恐怕也有所疑慮"},{"start":5603.291,"end":5607.608,"text":"而且陸委會過往的解釋過往的函式也有提到兩岸人民是以戶籍為標準"},{"start":5609.042,"end":5635.311,"text":"並沒有所謂的中華人民共和國國籍可言而且也有提到說這個對兩岸人民關係條例的這一個二十一條的這個解讀呢他是說只要滿十年就可以擔任為登記為公職候選人以及擔任公教那這邊的擔任公教應該要以應該要跟國籍法第二十條第一項做相同的產式啊那這邊的擔任公教難道又有內含著二十條第四項的限制嗎"},{"start":5636.631,"end":5654.155,"text":"所以這邊的擔任公教難道是指有條件的擔任嗎也就是說依照這一條是可以擔任的但還是要放棄國籍嗎那另外與國籍法第20條第一項的適用關係又為何這恐怕也是修法或者是本次的修法需要了解需要去釐清的"},{"start":5654.69,"end":5674.968,"text":"而且依照我國憲法的徵修條文的前言還有我國憲法徵修條文第11條的規定這都明確揭示了我國是沒有我們稱呼對岸的領土這個地區我們是用大陸地區來做法定的用語並沒有所謂的中華人民共和國的存在"},{"start":5676.192,"end":5693.191,"text":"而且在法律上我國的國家安全法第2條還有公職人員選舉罷免法第56條第4款還有戶籍法新住民基本法都把外國跟大陸地區去加以區分顯見立法者也認為外國人與大陸地區的人民是不同的人再者"},{"start":5696.314,"end":5718.699,"text":"公務人員任用法第28條第一項第二款以及第十款的修法的原由也可以請大家看一下公務人員任用法第28條第一項第二款跟國籍法第20條第一項是有相似的規範的是有相似的文藝的但是我們可以看到它的立法理由的上次的修法理由的"},{"start":5719.159,"end":5746.9,"text":"有提出說這個增訂第十款的理由呢是為了這個兩岸人民關係條例的限制所特別規定的那如果我們今天認為內政部的這個說法這個中華人民共和國國籍為外國國籍的話如果肯認這個中華人民共和國國籍的存在那為什麼我們在上次的修法公務人員任用法必須增訂第十款呢恐怕也需要加以去闡釋釐清那再來"},{"start":5748.075,"end":5764.024,"text":"在大法官的這個四字的這個708號解釋與710號解釋是針對這個邊境管制中的收容以及人身自由保障去做解釋我們也可以看得出來大法官在針對外國人的這個收容制度與人身自由的保障採取了"},{"start":5764.464,"end":5786.846,"text":"不同的這個解釋去做闡釋還有他就把710號解釋去做用710號解釋去對大陸地區人民去做解釋我們也可以看得出來這就是在公法學上所謂的事物本質上不同所以以不同的待遇的一種闡釋方式再來就這個反滲透法第二條第一款的解讀"},{"start":5787.813,"end":5808.271,"text":"我國的台灣高等法院也有提到這是一個馬志威的案件我們也可以看到說司法實務上對於中華人民共和國這個疑似是國家的這個概念他們是認為反滲透法第二他是反滲透法第二條第一款所謂的政治實體或團體也就是他並不是一個國家"},{"start":5809.423,"end":5832.836,"text":"再來最高法院對於這個在大陸地區犯罪的這個情況啊他們是一向認為說在大陸地區犯罪仍應受我國法律的處罰因為大陸地區有屬於我國的領域而且在刑事司法實務上就大陸地區人民犯罪以後是否依照刑法第95條宣告驅逐出境的問題多數法院也都認為並非外國人不能由"},{"start":5833.856,"end":5858.423,"text":"這個法院宣告驅逐出境那在這樣的情況下內政部這樣子的看法是否要根本性的挑戰最高法院的穩定見解呢因此結論小結是不論是基於憲法其他現行法規或司法解釋等等我國並沒有肯認中華人民共和國國籍的空間或可能性當然也就不可能把外國國籍解釋為包含了中華人民共和國的國籍再者"},{"start":5859.062,"end":5873.138,"text":"我們雖然討厭但不得不承認的這個中華人民共和國他也有一些其他的規定請注意這不是本人肯認中華人民共和國憲法或者是法律而是在肯認大陸地區人民擁有中華人民共和國國籍的邏輯下"},{"start":5874.56,"end":5890.539,"text":"我們如果肯認大陸地區人民依照中華人民共和國國籍法擁有中華人民共和國國籍那似乎全體的台灣人民依照他們的規範也都有中華人民共和國國籍那麼如此的解釋下請問何人可以符合國籍法第20條的限制再來"},{"start":5891.601,"end":5904.34,"text":"依照他們的國籍法第四條的規定也會有這兩個修法的意義請問台商子女如果在大陸地區出生是否依照我國法治的解讀下他就永遠無法擔任中華民國的公職、君職以及教職"},{"start":5905.311,"end":5932.376,"text":"並且現在的這個根據日前的這個報章雜誌也有提到我們國家的這個高階的這個將領有這個1980年後出這個出生後或者出生於或者是居住於大陸地區的情況那他目前是擔任了中華民國的公職君子君子或教職之一那是否必須依照這個我國的國籍法第20條第4項去放棄中華人民共和國國籍否則必須免職呢因此我的結論很簡單"},{"start":5933.823,"end":5957.618,"text":"在我國法治下並沒有肯認中華人民共和國國籍存在的可能更何況肯認其為外國國籍當然拉回這次的修法我認為修法一直或許利益良善但是在解釋上可能會有一種解釋空間就是修法後才不適用於大陸地區人民但修法以前可以適用於大陸地區人民的解讀空間也就是說本次的修法"},{"start":5957.958,"end":5970.021,"text":"反而是肯認了原本國籍法第20條的外國國籍包含了中華人民共和國國籍的這種可能性所以因此大院若予以修法的話恐怕需要審慎的為之謝謝謝謝黃教授國立台灣大學政治學系"},{"start":5983.623,"end":5993.892,"text":"主席我們各位官員我們各位媒體界的朋友各位先進大家好很高興參加這個討論我有一個書面意見我就照著這個書面意見講"},{"start":5997.441,"end":6019.369,"text":"我們第一個提問是說提綱是說世界各國到底怎麼樣對這個就是說這個外國人比如說他是這個尤其是當他是雙重國籍或是說他是規劃者或他是類似我們這邊講的這個陸配然後大陸的這個居民等等這些那"},{"start":6020.269,"end":6049.452,"text":"我認為說在學理上這就是涉及到我們廣泛所稱的這些就是說這個外籍人士的基本權的保障這個憲法基本權的保障那通說都是認為他們還是受到基本權的保障但應該依照各該領域或案型的公共利益的需要那麼來做必要的限制那麼這樣才是可以"},{"start":6050.272,"end":6073.889,"text":"比例原則跟平等原則那麼就我們這個今天講的這個符公職來講那當然就是說到底所涉及的公職的職位層次比如說總統這個職位那當然就是根本的不一樣或說立委或說地方層級的這個行政首長或是議員那麼就說依照公職的層次跟屬性他所涉及的"},{"start":6074.509,"end":6103.609,"text":"政治忠誠性的高低可以嗎那麼所需要政治的那麼那麼以及另一方面就當事人所屬的群體他跟這個所在帝國跟我們中華民國的這個關係那麼這樣來這個兩邊來做有關的衡量這樣子那我這邊特別要舉一個德國的例子就是說因為我們的這個兩岸人民關係條例事實上是有參考德國的這個立法例"},{"start":6104.569,"end":6116.863,"text":"德國二次大戰後,西德首先是否定東德有根本的國家屬性因為他是個叛亂團體,所以東德人民就是西德的人民當然享有基本權"},{"start":6125.892,"end":6153.234,"text":"那麼在1973年這個東進政策之後他還是一樣他認為東德是整體德國的一部分等等這些所以他給東德人民的待遇幾乎是沒有任何限制的東德人民就跟西德人民一樣享有各式各樣的自由權的保障居住、旅行、選舉權、備選舉權等等這些工作權等等這些好 那我現在就趕快講到第二段來"},{"start":6154.255,"end":6167.867,"text":"就是說我們對陸配的規定是否妥當那我認為說我們現行的規定還是要講到我們憲法那最重要就是說我今天要講的是說我們這個國內很多在聯合報中國時報的評論意見都是這樣講的我也是這樣講的"},{"start":6170.189,"end":6186.78,"text":"就是說我們的憲法遵修條例的前言就講到會因應國家統一潛質需要那麼以及我們這個憲法遵修條例第11條就兩岸人民的這個就大陸第一人民的這個權利義務跟這個其他的事由得以法律為特別規定"},{"start":6187.76,"end":6206.594,"text":"所以我們事實上是在現行的憲法的架構下我們是因應統一權的需要那對大陸人民我們是做了用授權用法律來做特別的規定是這樣那我們這個規定我可以跟各位講說我們跟西德的版本不一樣是說我們更小心了"},{"start":6207.635,"end":6226.007,"text":"西德是幾乎是全面性的他在處理東德的這個人民的時候不管是1973年之前還是1973年這個基礎條約簽訂之後東進政策之後他認為東德人民就是他們的人民享有完全的這個相同的這個基本權甚至還制定有關的這個一些"},{"start":6227.433,"end":6253.912,"text":"輔助啊一些這個補助啊等等這些的法律來來協助他們融入更有那我特別講說我國有一個跟我剛剛講的有一個相近的就是說呢我們四字第618號解釋這是一個一個這個陸配那麼他在10他不到10年他居住未滿10年他就考上這個這個我們的高普考然後就分發去一個國民學校當幹事"},{"start":6254.492,"end":6279.297,"text":"那可是循序部呢就依照任用法那就就沒有讓他這個任官這樣子那他就針對這個你看當時大家都信奉都沒有爭議就是一切就是依照兩岸人民關係條例那相關的10年涉及規定是在第21條第一項大家都沒有爭議那大法官也做出618號解釋是這個樣子所以我們今天是"},{"start":6279.717,"end":6295.138,"text":"突然突襲啊我們今天是突然就是改變說是要用國籍法那這個主要的理由我想大概有兩個一個就是我們今天內政部跟我們沈不陽委員所講的就是說這個大陸呢他們文攻武嚇統戰滲透"},{"start":6297.741,"end":6316.034,"text":"摩我日氣等等這些我們面臨可能相較於我們這個修憲一開始修憲之後的情形我們更加的受到危險這樣子所以要做更嚴格的管制"},{"start":6316.707,"end":6332.158,"text":"可以嗎那這是個宏觀的判斷那我們大法官也講像這種宏觀的判斷如果立法院做出有關的規定那大法官都會接受因為他這個就會降低他的這個違憲審查的密度這在6182解釋理由書清楚講到的"},{"start":6332.535,"end":6353.677,"text":"所以我會認為說假設民進黨團或是我們的高層他認為說因應當前的兩岸的情勢的發展的需要應該做出比較強悍的管制規定那應該是在兩岸人民關係條例去落實而不是你突然轉了一個調說我們是兩個國家"},{"start":6356.319,"end":6384.558,"text":"而且是改用國際法沒有經過任何修憲修法就要做這樣的一個動作我認為是突襲是違反向來人民的在徵修條文那麼在兩岸人民關係條例的這個法的確信長年以來已經實行這麼久了所以最後我要特別講到就是說我們今天對陸配的參政權我認為應該從兩岸人民關係條例去做管制"},{"start":6385.038,"end":6407.426,"text":"那現行的管制規定是只要你涉及滿10年就可以了就可以參政就可以扶工職就對了那這個規定是不是過於寬鬆因為我們國際法事實上有比較國際法好像第10條有比較就是說哪些職位是外國人是不能來幹的是這樣"},{"start":6409.907,"end":6430.186,"text":"那所以就是說我認為說就陸配或是我們大陸居民那他在台灣合法取得居留之後那他的這個扶公子的權利應該做如何的管制可以嗎這個是那這是涉及宏觀的判斷那也許各個主要政黨有不同的判斷可以嗎"},{"start":6432.047,"end":6449.236,"text":"應該從這邊來做有關的管制規定那這才是正辦而不是你突然就換了一個軌道一套的這個論述這樣子那我還是最後要講回來說那麼我們現行這個兩岸人民關係條例用涉及滿10年"},{"start":6451.158,"end":6461.771,"text":"作為要件那麼針對立委這個就是說我們這個我們本件的這個爭執可能是主要最近的爭執比較大的爭執是針對立委的這個就任那我認為說"},{"start":6464.133,"end":6484.226,"text":"我雖然講這見仁見智但我認為說也是夠了就十年夠因為我們這個社會變動的非常激烈那他在台灣待滿十年應該也是相當融入不是再那麼的教條那麼的受到大陸的這個方面的這個方方面面的指揮監督我報告到這邊謝謝"},{"start":6490.37,"end":6493.151,"text":"今天我們在這裡討論的是國籍法還是國民的參政權其實沒有那麼複雜請回歸中華民國憲法第二條第三條就很清楚中華民國憲法第二條中華民國"},{"start":6518.208,"end":6543.861,"text":"自主權屬全體國民所有是國民不是人民第三條中華民國國民有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民憲法裡面大概出現有些關於國民人民跟民族的描述當我們講人民的權利物的時候他包含了在中華民國領域當中不是本國的人民"},{"start":6544.417,"end":6573.371,"text":"也同樣享有宗教自由也同樣享有一些我們憲法保障的基本人權但是你必須是國民某個程度上就是公民國民有依法納稅服兵役的義務依法但是外國人他在中華民國境內享有普遍的人權這不爭的事實所以我們回到當我們談中華民國人民的時候他在哪裡出現"},{"start":6574.67,"end":6599.787,"text":"他在我們徵求條文的第11條第11條說自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利義務關係及其他事務另訂法律特別定例之人人民之間大陸地區跟自由地區這又有趣啦什麼時候中華民國分成大陸地區跟自由地區"},{"start":6601.021,"end":6625.568,"text":"政協條文他的前言寫為因應國家統一前置需要所以才會在第一條裡面很清楚的規定第一條規定什麼 政協條文中華民國最重要的主權表現在兩個地方第一個修改憲法第二個變更領土必須由自由地區的人民來行使自由地區的選舉人抱歉不是選人民"},{"start":6626.676,"end":6650.497,"text":"是自由地區的選舉人表示什麼儘管在國家統一前 因應國家統一前之需要當年的時空背景我們被迫把台灣有效的自選放回台澎金馬我們稱之為自由地區其他的地區稱之為大陸地區但是大陸地區的人民享有中華民國的國家主權嗎沒有"},{"start":6651.308,"end":6680.894,"text":"因為他不具備憲法第三條所說的具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民第二條講什麼講總統的選舉一樣是由自由地區的選舉人選舉產生再來我們看第四條立法委員立法委員由誰選舉產生這裡就比較有趣了他在第一款第二款第一款叫做直轄縣直轄市及縣市我們俗稱的區域立委"},{"start":6681.653,"end":6701.239,"text":"第二項自由地區的直轄市及縣市第二項第二款他寫說自由地區的原住民包括3D原住民跟平地原住民第三部分區及僑居海外之國民僑居國外的國民也可以來選立委耶那怎麼回事呢為什麼因為憲法徵銷條文第10條明白的寫著"},{"start":6709.924,"end":6726.711,"text":"國家對於僑居國外國民之政治參與應予保障所以在中華民國地區有國籍的中華民國國民才享有國家的主權才得以選舉總統才得以選舉立法委員才得以變更領土才得以修憲這個跟其他的法律啊夏威法律他寫在這裡啊所以"},{"start":6734.997,"end":6756.891,"text":"要談國計畫請先兩岸人民關係條例先回到我們憲法本文跟任意的條文兩岸人民關係條例規範的是什麼兩岸自由地區跟大陸地區間人民的權利義務能夠把大陸地區的人民可以來擁有中華民國國民享有中華民國的主權嗎沒有啊"},{"start":6759.238,"end":6778.723,"text":"甚至連原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外他因為在國內超過時間他失去了戶籍他戶籍牽扯到戶籍所在地連這樣的原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外因為憲法徵銷權明白規定要保障他的參政權他才得以"},{"start":6779.642,"end":6794.313,"text":"在總統大選前六個月反國恢復戶籍對不起修正他必須在國外必須對於他反國投票必須循法律的規定他才能選總投票給總統請問僑居國外的僑民回來國內他可以投給立法委員嗎不行要依法律的規定他先必須恢復戶籍"},{"start":6807.386,"end":6834.357,"text":"在都復席地停留滿4個月以上所以我們知道連原來中華民國國民僑居國外的人都受到這麼嚴格的規範所以當我們在這裡提出大陸地區的人民他要如何來行使中華民國的主權包括很明顯的參政權變更領土修憲選舉總統選舉立法委員當然要規定我在這裡不得不稍微批判一下花點時間這裡面我們有位我們前的局長說"},{"start":6835.973,"end":6851.673,"text":"所謂的登記為公職候選人是什麼意思因為中華民國不僅是允許雙重國籍你人民可以雙重國籍但是你公職人員必須是單一國籍包括誰包括僑民"},{"start":6853.311,"end":6879.31,"text":"如果說所謂的僑選的部分區立法委員如果你是僑民你擁有僑居地的國籍你就算是列為部分區的立法委員你當選後一年內必須放棄台灣以外的國籍連僑民這麼明顯強烈的自由地區居住的原國民他僑居之後他回來他可以參選有沒有叫他參選前就放棄啊沒有啊"},{"start":6880.424,"end":6907.811,"text":"我們要求當部分區僑選的立法委員要求這些立委先放棄他在僑居地的國籍嗎沒有因為他會不會當選不知道啊他排名在他的部分區名單如果他登記為部分區的名單他就要放棄僑居地的國籍那這是對他國家容許他保障雙重國籍的剝削同樣的大陸地區的人民他來到台灣之後他在取得台灣的國籍的同時"},{"start":6908.732,"end":6927.023,"text":"他仍然可以保留對岸的護障對岸的國籍因為台灣是容許雙重國籍的所以容許你參選你必須10年以上 社福籍10年以上但是但是你落選了你還是維持你的雙重國籍啊這跟僑民是沒什麼兩樣的"},{"start":6928.53,"end":6955.865,"text":"只是對於來自大陸地區的人民我們有兩個規定第一個要選擇擔任公職他參選要10年以上要擔任軍職人員要20年以上為什麼因為大陸地區目前是由敵對勢力所控制所以來自於大陸地區這個人民他在台灣他可以擁有雙重國籍但是他要擔任公職必須有戶籍10年以上才能參選沒當選你還是可以保留"},{"start":6957.586,"end":6964.788,"text":"如果你要擔任軍職想要從軍擔任志願役的軍人你必須涉及滿20年以上這個有規定有不得已嗎我們中華民國憲法第130條國民年滿20歲有選舉權年滿23歲有被選舉權這是一個普通規定特別規定規定什麼總統我們憲法第45條中華民國國民年滿40歲得選舉總統"},{"start":6987.665,"end":7000.715,"text":"所以縱使是國民我們的選舉權也會有特別的規定所以當我們在國際法裡面對於規劃的國民外國人可以規劃為台灣的國民他規劃為國民他在規劃的時候已經放棄了雙通國籍了所以規劃的國民有沒有辦法參選公職可以啊"},{"start":7015.202,"end":7039.872,"text":"但是你大陸地區的人民你取得台灣的戶籍跟身份證你有行規劃的時候的放棄國籍嗎沒有啊沒有啊先不談參政我們來談健保僑民過去在國內使用健保很普遍但是從今年開始抱歉過去你只要回來台灣"},{"start":7041.42,"end":7068.127,"text":"你健保繳費滿半年以上你就可以使用健保現在是規定啊如果你簽出台灣戶籍簽出台灣你必須持續繳健保費你才能回到台灣來才能繼續使用健保如果你中間有斷掉對不起請你補齊了你才能參加健保健保跟民主制度都是台灣的驕傲連本國的僑民因為僑居海外他要回來使用健保都必須接受這樣的權利義務對等規定"},{"start":7070.765,"end":7092.953,"text":"但是但是我們對大陸地區人民他取得台灣的戶籍之後他當然可以享受健保連他的家人依親也可以請問規劃的台灣的外國人規劃台灣的外國人他的外國的家人不具有台灣國籍的家人可以這樣子嗎不可以啊"},{"start":7095.714,"end":7112.608,"text":"所以今天如果是我們的法律制度我們歧視大陸地區的人民這是絕對錯的因為我們對大陸地區人民之間的權利特別的權利義務關係李前總統說過台灣自由地區跟大陸地區是一個特殊的國與國關係"},{"start":7115.356,"end":7144.268,"text":"國語國聽好啊所以他們是不是本國人是特殊的外國人而他這個特殊的外國人的身份優於其他普通的外國人所以當我們今天談國際法談兩岸人民關係條例請看清楚憲法第二條第三條以及憲法政協條文第十一條的規定憲法政協條文第一條第二條第四條都清楚的規定中華民國的主權屬於全體國民所有"},{"start":7145.066,"end":7166.486,"text":"有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民選舉總統選舉立委變更領土修改憲法必須由自由地區的選舉人為之連僑民他要行使在台灣的參政權都必須循相關特殊法律的規定我們在這裡並沒有對不起來自大陸地區的人民我們歡迎他加入自由地區"},{"start":7167.325,"end":7175.695,"text":"這是自由地區那邊是不自由的地區你從不自由的地區來到自由地區我們歡迎你接受這裡的民主自由法治謝謝我們家料理師"},{"start":7186.884,"end":7207.675,"text":"主席各位先親大家好我是廖國祥律師今天分四點來跟大家說明這個修法的議題首先第一點請大家不要混淆人權跟公民權的概念我們最近很常聽到說支持修法的不管是支持修法的人士或者立委常常喊說這是在保障人權防止對於中國籍配偶的人權侵害"},{"start":7208.255,"end":7233.513,"text":"但這個說法顯然過於沒有憲法常識因為參政權雖然是規定在憲法的基本權裡面但是並不是人權它是公民權公民權是以國民身份為前提而且並不是唯一的前提可以依法律加以限制舉例來說年齡限制是不是一種年齡投票年齡是一種限制參政年齡是不是一種限制那對於不允許雙重國籍或者是避免中程衝突"},{"start":7234.453,"end":7258.17,"text":"這個當然也是具有法律上面限制的可能性甚至是必要性的那第二點對於參政權的限制其實核心問題點就在於忠誠義務是否會產生衝突為什麼我們要求單任公職者必須要放棄原國籍這是因為我們要確保他對於我們的國家有絕對而且單一的忠誠而且我們呢而且"},{"start":7259.414,"end":7277.028,"text":"而且我們沒有辦法在個案裡面對於每一個要來擔任公職要來擔任民選公職的人去做思想檢查去做忠誠測驗因此我們必須要從制度上面去訪免這就是這個法律規範的必要性那大法官在釋字第618號解釋裡面剛才很多人也提到了講得很清楚"},{"start":7277.728,"end":7299.4,"text":"裡面提到因為兩岸特殊的對立狀態為了台灣的安全跟自由民主憲章秩序的維繫那對於大陸地區人民擔任公務員其實在法律上也設下了這個限制了他是合理而且正當的並且可認他是合憲的那最後解釋是對於大陸地區人民擔任台灣的應考式服工職權的這個限制大家想想看"},{"start":7300.04,"end":7322.619,"text":"如果連擔任依法行政的公務員都必須要以法律去加以做限制去防止他們的可能中途的違反中程衝突的違反之外那權力更大可能影響到國家政策走向甚至能夠接觸到國防外交機密的民選公職人員這樣的參政權難道不能用法律加以限制嗎當然不是這個樣子"},{"start":7323.854,"end":7340.71,"text":"不要再就說別的兩岸關係條例裡面就連包含繼承遺產的總額這個關於財產權都設有限制的那哪有說參政權不能限制的道理所以說只要是限制就是侵害人權這樣說法過於跳躍第三點"},{"start":7342.47,"end":7364.221,"text":"現在的國際法規定只要是有其他國家國籍身份者不管你是美國籍日本籍或是其他國籍如果要擔任台灣的民選公職的話都必須提出放棄國籍證明文件這是一個一視同仁的標準並沒有歧視任何一個國家或是地區的人民那如果今天我們單獨為中華人民共和國的國籍開了這個後門"},{"start":7365.061,"end":7382.774,"text":"允許他們不用放棄原國籍就能擔任民選公職的話這其實是創造出一個顯然不合理的差別待遇反而會違反憲法上面的平等原則那更何況中國籍配偶沒有辦法提出放棄他們原國籍的證明文件是因為我們中華民國法律的限制嗎不是啊"},{"start":7383.414,"end":7412.974,"text":"是因為中華人民共和國不願意承認中華民國的存在所以不能因為說他們的人民所以他們中國不承認說他們的人民取得我們中華民國的國籍之後會自動喪失他們原中華人民共和國的國籍所以他們無法取得這個證明文件這個顯然是來自於對岸不管是政治上或者是法律上面的因素但是並不是因為我們的法律對他們加以怎麼樣的限制那為什麼現在是我們要討論怎麼修法幫他們解套呢"},{"start":7413.414,"end":7438.642,"text":"ok最後一點也是最重要一點我們不能無視於法律上的忠誠義務的衝突這個不是政治意識形態的問題這是法律事實的問題中華人民共和國的國家情報法第七條就規定了凡是中國的公民都有支持協助配合國家情報工作的義務什麼是國家情報工作講白話一點就是間諜工作啊那一旦我們允許沒有放棄中國國旗的人民進入立法院進入其他的民選公職"},{"start":7439.562,"end":7463.917,"text":"他在法律上一定會陷入一個兩難就是他到底要遵守中華民國的憲法忠誠還是要去履行他身為中華人民共和國國籍者法律上所賦有的支持配合國家情報工作的義務呢這是一個客觀存在的法律上風險不能用什麼保障人權為名然後將這個忠誠衝突甚至法律上面衝突視諾無睹就別說別的"},{"start":7464.838,"end":7475.973,"text":"一位差點成為民眾黨的不分區立委的叫徐春英他前陣子也才因為涉及到反滲透法而被收押而已啊這是現實上面的可能存在的風險"},{"start":7477.363,"end":7503.089,"text":"OK那這邊也不需要扯什麼憲法一中或憲法不一中其實重點一直都在於忠誠義務的衝突這邊就問一句話你們讓擁有中華人民共和國的國籍的人民擔任民選公職跟讓擁有美日國籍的人擔任民選公職哪一個對台灣的安全危害比較大哪一個的忠誠義務影響以及對國家的安全的威脅比較大這才是重點"},{"start":7503.889,"end":7530.721,"text":"所以說如果說什麼都是用憲法所謂的斷章取義的憲法一中憲法架構就全部去合理化正當化的話那要不要乾脆請解放軍請他直接登島就好了因為國軍共軍根據這個一中憲法全部都是中國軍是不是那樣這是如此荒謬的說法謝謝大家謝謝大家陳副教授國立成功大學法律學系"},{"start":7538.3,"end":7564.4,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是成功大學法律系副教授陳一凱剛剛在聆聽的在座許多先進的這個發言我們想要澄清一個觀念那當然也有很多同時都澄清了因為我們彼此必須要有一些對話那這裡的一個問題就是說剛剛吳教授有引到這個公正公約第25條他認為說這個是人權"},{"start":7569.263,"end":7594.759,"text":"但是這裡的條文是說它不能去任意的或是說不合理的去限制也就是說你合理的差別待遇它是可以的並沒有所謂的各國都允許外國人通通可以毫無條件無限制的可以來參與公民權或是投票權"},{"start":7596.105,"end":7624.573,"text":"德國在1990年漢堡幫跟這個幫這兩個幫都有提出要引進外國人的投票權但是這兩個法通通被聯邦憲法法院德國聯邦憲法法院宣告違憲的它的理由是說根據基本法第20條所有國家權利來自於人民然後這個人民指的就是德國國民"},{"start":7625.526,"end":7650.065,"text":"而不是外國人那這裡呢就是說他已經但是德國呢他卻因為受到歐盟條約的這個拘束那歐盟條約呢在馬斯崔克條約的時候就已經引進了所謂的歐盟盟籍或是歐盟公民公民權籍就等於是他的意思是說凡是取得會員國的國籍者呢"},{"start":7650.58,"end":7677.769,"text":"就通通都是歐盟的公民者就是歐盟的盟籍歐盟的盟籍那因此他就引進了歐盟的在各國的這歐盟國家境內的鄉鎮地區的選舉權與被選舉權那因此歐盟國家在這個限度內就例外的可以容許比如說義大利人到德國的杜賓根"},{"start":7678.973,"end":7695.138,"text":"杜濱根市他可以去被選為可以去投票也可以被選為杜濱根市的市長以及他也可以去投票去選這個投票選這個歐洲議會的議員他不必回國就在"},{"start":7696.141,"end":7721.026,"text":"就在德國就可以投票了那但是這個是因為有一個前提你必須是歐盟國家然後歐盟國家呢都是信守民主自由法治人權的這些國家也就是說呢他會篩選篩選出說跟他的理念共同價值是相近的為什麼會這樣子呢因為呢國籍它的含義"},{"start":7722.046,"end":7746.411,"text":"他是國際法他是來自國際法的那國際法是說他是含有國民對國家負擔忠誠義務國家對國民負擔保護義務的這個相互權利義務關係所以不是我們自己可以隨便解釋的那麼剛剛在座也有陳律師呢去講說我國好像因為我們有兩岸人民關係條例然後又說"},{"start":7748.803,"end":7774.818,"text":"我們沒有去把中國大陸地區不承認中華人民共和國的國籍以及不承認就是說而且他還引了這個大法官的解釋釋字這個701他認為是你的措辭710對不起710是大陸地區人民那7108是外國人民他認為說這裡就是我們沒有"},{"start":7775.697,"end":7800.284,"text":"我們沒有去承認但是大家忘記了710710跟708都是要把大陸人民驅逐出境的才會去收容那誰可以把自己的本國國民驅逐出境呢不可能啊那你你把本國國民你本國國民你只能把他剋除徒刑有期徒刑或處罰你不可能把本國國民趕出去從這個710跟"},{"start":7805.34,"end":7810.503,"text":"708的這樣的一個解釋就可以證明他就是外國人然後呢剛剛那個"},{"start":7814.838,"end":7841.572,"text":"還有那個大法官的解釋剛剛已經有很多先進已經提到了618號解釋我再提另外一個解釋497號解釋497號解釋是說大陸地區人民非經主管機關的許可不能入境不能進入台灣地區那這個也被大法官解釋為是合憲的那假設大陸地區人民是我國的國民的話我們不可能一定要許可他才能夠入境"},{"start":7842.062,"end":7868.455,"text":"你不能阻止本國國民回國那這是一個國際法所以你不可能去做這樣的一個限制那另外呢關於公約呢我們不是只有1930年的海牙這個公約他已經明定這個單一國籍的一個原則但是這裡呢並不是說他忍受外國國籍這不是這個意思而是說呢國籍你能不能去"},{"start":7869.415,"end":7889.48,"text":"取消他的國籍以及能不能授予他的國籍這個要按照國際公法也就是說國際公法是說從Notbond的這個判決就是說你要跟這個國家有一個genuine link就是真正的聯繫那麼這個陸培他在中國出生然後他的父母都是中華人民共和國的國籍"},{"start":7890.305,"end":7914.674,"text":"那他就跟中華人民共和國有真正的聯繫跟我國是沒有聯繫的所以他要成為我國的國民就只能規劃而已不論我們用的措辭是什麼要不然的話我們對他設說他要幾年要居留幾年才能夠取得身份證這裡就是一個假設他真的是我國的國民的話我們這樣做就是違反國際法的"},{"start":7916.823,"end":7937.743,"text":"另外呢就說中國陸配他沒有辦法回國去取得證明說他的國籍被取消那這個問題呢我們說聯合國世界人權宣言第15條他肯認人民有變更國籍的權利跟自由但是"},{"start":7938.993,"end":7967.882,"text":"中國他自己他其實世界各國都是這樣人民如果說要換國籍的話呢大家各國都會同意的但是中國他自己不同意那我們沒有辦法去幫他同意那我們可不可以說那我們不要我們就直接把中國大陸的人民視為我國國民這個也不可以為什麼因為他跟我國沒有任何聯繫因素那我們如果這麼做的話呢我們就是等於是違反了國際公法那我們不可能"},{"start":7968.949,"end":7984.445,"text":"無視於他跟中國的這個聯繫那我們通通不承認所以這也不是我國承不承認的問題而是我國在國際公法上呢不能越取代跑然後去撤銷或是說去去幫中國他自己PRC是去"},{"start":7985.345,"end":8002.664,"text":"去把他自己的國民的國籍把它廢除這是我們沒有辦法這麼做的那今天的問題就是說忠誠義務那麼大法官618號解釋呢也已經肯認了公務人員還要更進一步的加強他的這個忠誠度那今天我們想一想假設我們把這個取消的話"},{"start":8004.289,"end":8026.108,"text":"剛剛也有我們如果把這個取消的話那我們舉一個例子假設陸配他現在現在又又說又被我們說他是共諜然後呢我們要起訴他他他就說哎我對中華人民共和國也有忠誠義務啊這裡是忠誠義務的衝突啊所以我這裡是不可抗議所以我阻卻違法那這樣子我們要怎麼處理呢謝謝超過時間"},{"start":8030.575,"end":8035.238,"text":"謝謝男嘉 陳佩瑜 立委好 謝謝主席我非常開心剛剛到了現場聽了廖律師還有陳老師的發言我想關鍵真的就在於忠誠度的問題如果忠誠度的問題沒有解決要賣弄法律文字我認為台灣人民會看得非常清楚但是我還是要主張在立法委員我們跟在野黨的"},{"start":8060.433,"end":8081.514,"text":"公房當中我想要提出幾個關鍵性的問題也要拜託在野黨委員一併考慮喔那我不確定今天有多少國民黨提案的委員會來參加公聽會或者是民眾黨的委員但是我要說如果你們既然敢提出修法就請你們公開跟台灣人民說清楚你們到底為什麼要修這樣的版本但話沒有是國民黨提出但現在是民眾黨委員坐在這邊好第一個"},{"start":8082.435,"end":8096.708,"text":"行政院在112年就已經明確指出兩岸互不隸屬是既成事實但可能這樣的事實不為在野黨委員所接受那行政院的函其實已經寫得非常清楚了而且我要談的是台灣走過民主化而且政黨輪替"},{"start":8097.669,"end":8123.983,"text":"宪政深化两岸互不隶属早就是事实但是有人不愿意见到这个事实也不愿意认清这个现实还要继续用30多年前的法律精神刚解研不久的制度来宣称中国人民也是我国国民真的显得非常的荒谬刚程老师也说得非常清楚了而这种论述跟现实脱节更是在直接否定打脸台湾这30多年来的民主进化"},{"start":8124.443,"end":8148.133,"text":"因此我认为这件事情非常不可取第二个台湾目前的社会共识非常简单要在台湾担任公职就应该要舍弃双重国籍这个原则用在萧美琴副总统身上是如此用在过去的李庆安委员也是如此一直以来都没有例外我不知道为什么现在中国国民党要提出这个轻重的法案"},{"start":8148.553,"end":8174.175,"text":"要讓中國籍的配偶到台灣來參政卻不是用這個規定非常非常的奇怪而這個奇怪的邏輯背後其實我認為是在為中國造橋鋪路中國的什麼造橋鋪路呢中國的滲透統戰侵略跟併吞台灣的心造橋鋪路我認為大家看得非常的清楚因為中國並不是一般的民主友邦在陳老師的簡報裡面雖然剛剛大家沒有看到我桌上有看到"},{"start":8174.495,"end":8192.812,"text":"有提到非常多民主国家还是敌对国家对台湾的姿态对台湾所表现出来友善程度中国绝对不是一般民主国家所表现出来的样态而是一个时时刻刻并吞威胁恐吓共济绕台这样的国家在对待台湾这样的政权"},{"start":8193.533,"end":8208.71,"text":"而中國國民黨現在的修法正是在幫中國降低滲透統戰侵略的成本所以我要說這是在自我削弱這個制度讓台灣所有的人民處在一個共同的國安困境之中"},{"start":8209.37,"end":8226.207,"text":"再來我要說兩岸不是也不可以是內政的問題如果按照現在國民黨的修法版本在法律上中國人民跟台灣人民會被認定是同一個國家但剛剛有非常多律師跟老師也說了我們就不是同一個國家再說一次"},{"start":8226.607,"end":8248.814,"text":"台灣跟中國就不是同一個國家如果在這個框架底下未來任何問題都會被視為是內政問題就讓台灣的主體性就消失了而我們目前所有國際民主友人還有所有在國際上為台灣發聲的台灣人也好不同國家的人也好要如何看待台灣這個奇怪的位置所以我想根據聯合國的憲章不干涉內政情況下只要台灣問題被視為是中國的家務事"},{"start":8254.116,"end":8281.403,"text":"任何的國家在未來都沒有介入的空間那我們是如何辜負現在全世界民主國家對於民主發展的想望跟期待而這也就是為什麼中國不斷的推動一中敘事拉著台灣所有親中舔共的政治人物一起喊兩岸同屬一個國家這個荒謬的說法而現在如果台灣內部有任何一點點的聲音持續承認並且一起繼續大聲的喊出這一點那其實是讓中國犯台的成本"},{"start":8283.363,"end":8298.584,"text":"降到最低甚至是零成本而這是我們想要看見的嗎反之如果兩岸的問題可以被視為區域安全的問題國際介入就有正當性中國動武就必須付出巨大代價我認為這件事情國民黨跟民眾黨也要說清楚"},{"start":8300.326,"end":8315.041,"text":"還有再來我想國際有人為台灣發聲已經有非常多案例我就不再舉例可是我要繼續說如果你們要繼續主張兩岸是同一國是內政問題就是在為中國無力犯台找藉口鋪路"},{"start":8315.601,"end":8323.126,"text":"合理化正當性甚至是欺騙蒙騙台灣國人所以我要說我自己成陪於身為立法委員雖然過去我從來沒有過雙重國籍但是站在為台灣效忠的這個前提之下我認為在台灣要擔任公職就是要必須捨棄雙重國籍今天我們要反對的不是中配而是國籍法修法背後的國安破口"},{"start":8340.857,"end":8367.033,"text":"還有國際戰略局勢中絕對不要傳達出錯誤的訊號給國際民主友人我要再說一次國民黨的委員民眾黨的委員如果沒有看台灣的民主發展故事不願意看過去台灣建言時期有多少民主前輩流血流汗種下台灣現在的民主成果你們今天不會坐在這裡你們不會成為一個人民票選出來的立法委員請對台灣的民主歷史發展"},{"start":8367.413,"end":8379.978,"text":"做出負責任的說法還有修法而台灣需要的是清晰堅定的法律邊界還有對台灣人民效忠的立法委員而不是對中華人民共和國北京政府效忠的立法委員謝謝謝謝我們家劉淑彬立委"},{"start":8398.847,"end":8399.412,"text":"感謝主席"},{"start":8402.568,"end":8428.799,"text":"感謝主席今天也安排了這項會議來討論國籍法的一個修訂那這個修訂最主要是因應到陸配的一個問題那本席這邊想要跟大家說明的是中華民國我們現在在場的所有的立委都是中華民國的立委因此你必須要遵守的是中華民國憲法上面的位階它是最高的"},{"start":8429.699,"end":8445.471,"text":"我們現在所徵修條文的前言裡面就已經講了中華民國的一個狀況在特殊的一個情形之下就是要針對兩岸的特殊關係有一個"},{"start":8447.563,"end":8464.213,"text":"兩岸的人民關係條例這也在後來的憲法當 徵修條文當中已經訂定了這樣的規定我們的特殊的情況雖然在1991年但是不要忘記了憲法是不長治久安的因此即使在是三十幾年1991年訂定的現在是2025年"},{"start":8467.455,"end":8482.405,"text":"但是在13 14年的那個歷程當中在30幾年的歷程當中就是讓我們保證了一個長治久安中華民國就是一個長治久安的一個基礎這是重要的第一點好"},{"start":8483.993,"end":8505.062,"text":"另外呢最近的一個陸配參政的問題呢社會討論非常多大家也看到說內政部的劉志芳部長呢他說陸配因為有外國的國籍所以要適用到國籍法20條但是本席要很清楚的說一句話在我們現行的法律體系裡面陸配不是依照外國人來處理的這就是依據到中華民國憲法增修條文而來的"},{"start":8512.554,"end":8530.462,"text":"那所以呢以處理到用國籍法帶處理陸配的問題不是解方這不是政治立場這是法律上面事實我們是一個法治國家絕對是要堅守憲法法律法規行政命令這樣的位階不然怎麼叫法治國啊"},{"start":8531.755,"end":8552.162,"text":"中華民國的立法委員不遵守法制這算什麼立法委員啦另外依照徵修條文憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區人民不是外國人陸配取得身份證之後就是中華民國的國民這個例子在東西德的例子上面就有看到了東西德的例子上面就看到了"},{"start":8553.376,"end":8574.83,"text":"好 那我們繼續往下看兩岸人民國際條例當中21條也寫得很清楚社集會滿10年不能夠擔任公職滿10年就可以所以今天問題不是國際法有漏洞而是民進黨政府錯用了錯誤的法律想想看在蔡英文總統時期有出現這個問題嗎沒有啊賴清德總統上台的時候才是問題"},{"start":8580.151,"end":8597.107,"text":"造成了他自己在競選的時候辯論的時候他說他當選台灣不會發生戰爭但是現在就是一直在兵兇戰危的情況所以是民進黨政府才造成的政府整個制度的大混亂我想要直接說明三點"},{"start":8603.296,"end":8624.455,"text":"來說明為何要修的是兩岸人民關係條例而不是要修國籍法第一國籍法不是適用陸配的國籍法本來就是要處理外國人但陸配呢是大陸地區人民是兩岸人民關係條例處理的對象這是憲法授權法律明定沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":8625.936,"end":8643.191,"text":"第二讓陸配提出放棄大陸籍證明根本做不到中國對我國並沒有配套制度這份文件也不存在但政府卻要陸配拿出不存在的文件來證明這就變成是"},{"start":8644.926,"end":8660.636,"text":"要有人會撤銷他的戶籍有人沒事但是完全在我們國內的這是沒有一致性的尚未因此就再造成更多的一個對立第三真正的漏洞是在兩岸人民關係條例現行的第21條只要規範就不能夠參選"},{"start":8666.158,"end":8684.734,"text":"他只規範的是說如果你沒有放棄戶久你不能參選但是並沒有規範當選後的忠誠義務也沒有明確國安的程序的國安考量這部分才會造成的所謂行政機關自由行政法院判決不一致陸配家庭非常的焦慮造成的裡面的社會的緊張現在民眾黨所要提出來的就是要補救的是"},{"start":8694.34,"end":8702.164,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例而不是國籍法這個是我們跟國民黨不一樣的地方我必須講清楚而是要把兩岸人民關係條例把它補強補到完整那我們主張方向非常清楚是什麼呢第一不要剝奪陸配的權利他們尤其是參政權"},{"start":8712.188,"end":8738.435,"text":"那為什麼因為他們是領我們國民中華民國的身份證的國民也是公民而且他們是十年之後才能夠參選才能夠登記那如果可以在台生活十年以上他們納稅工作也是在養小孩是社會的一份子是制度給他們一條清楚的路而不是讓他活在這個不確定裡面第二個我們的方法就是用公開忠誠宣誓取那不可能取得的文件既然"},{"start":8741.243,"end":8756.645,"text":"放棄大陸籍的證明拿不到那就不應該再用這個標準了改成公開宣示中華民國遵守憲法體制不受境外指揮這是大家做得到也那個為數公職的正當性大家說那這有沒有國際的這個案例呢有喔"},{"start":8758.127,"end":8783.311,"text":"這是有國際的案例的在宣示的制度的其他國家包括美國加拿大澳洲英國德國等國家對於他加入公職成為公職或是加入國籍他都要宣示忠誠這個地方就是本黨未來要提出的這個方向就在思考的方向這不是台灣獨創而是民主國家的共同做法"},{"start":8784.761,"end":8801.153,"text":"最後本席要反映出來很多的陸配家庭真的很焦慮因為制度很不清楚標準不一致但陸配不是外國人國際法本來就不是處理他們的法律但是現在如果內政部部長自己劉世芳都錯用法律"},{"start":8802.634,"end":8830.574,"text":"他是不是適任到一個當內政部部長還在製造我們的很多社會的問題正確的方向就是把兩岸人民關係條例補起來補到每一個人都知道該怎麼做怎麼樣的方向去進行陸派的參政權公職的擔任公職權利不應該讓行政機關隨意的解釋法律就明文有的就要去進行要逮捕的兩岸人民關係條例去修法不就可以了就可以達成了"},{"start":8831.334,"end":8850.853,"text":"我們需要的不是對立而是制度清楚這樣能保障所以跟我們一般一樣的都已經進入到成為我們國民甚至是十年之後擁有公民權的陸配的權利這樣台灣才是一個融合和可以共同在一起為大家的共同的目標在努力的這樣子一個社會"},{"start":8852.214,"end":8865.644,"text":"也能維護到我們國家安全忠誠的制度靠宣示公開的宣示在正式到就職之前到選舉單位去宣示這一部分多一個宣示公開呈現可能就是一個方向好謝謝"},{"start":8870.121,"end":8883.274,"text":"謝謝 最後我們請今天的議會機關代表回應說明我們修正省下內政部吳常務次長回應說明"},{"start":8890.419,"end":8910.297,"text":"主席還有今天與會的各位學者及各位委員我想我們內政部大概又做簡單的幾點回應就是有關修正國際法20條的規定第一個我們還是要重申第一個擔任公職負有國家忠誠的義務這是全體國人一致的適用規定所以只要欲擔任公職者"},{"start":8911.4,"end":8937.147,"text":"我國籍以外之國籍均應放棄並不會因為他是陸配或是新住民我們對他就有因為只要成為我中華民國的國民就要各遵我中華民國的法令這是第一個第二個部分就是在行政院秘書長在112年5月22的函式就已經一再強調第一個 中國大陸人民並不具有我中國的國籍非屬我國民"},{"start":8937.887,"end":8960.012,"text":"那一旦取得我台灣中華民國的身份之後既然轉化為我國的國民 擔任公職就一定要各遵我國國際法20條之規定那另外有關取得切結書的部分我這邊也簡單做說明第一個 在國際法20條規定我們並沒有去要求以切結書替代的規定這個是並沒有解釋的空間"},{"start":8961.178,"end":8988.028,"text":"而且大陸能不能放棄他的國籍是中華人民共和國的權利跟義務他要不要出去證明給原中國大陸地區人民的一個資格的放棄那那個是由中國中華人民共和國自行來決定這個我們也沒有修法的必要那以上先簡單就這個其他的部分就剛剛委員的幾個重點部分那我們內政部把我們的立場打他做一個說明以上"},{"start":8989.665,"end":8994.306,"text":"主席好 各位大家好剛剛聽到各位學者還有立委的意見我想有"},{"start":9018.769,"end":9046.529,"text":"我們要稍微說明一下第一個我們之所以這一次會談到是國籍法第20條其實所以很多人認為說這個到底大陸人適不適用國籍法這個會產生其實大家的看法南轅北轍但我們說明一下因為國籍法的20條的這個規定其實原來是規定在選罷法裡面"},{"start":9048.14,"end":9076.09,"text":"其實原來是規定在選罷法裡面它是後來才被移過來到國籍法如果今天這條文還在選罷法裡面的話我覺得這個爭議會比較少一點因為大家就不會再去爭議說這個國籍法到底適不適用於大陸地區人民我想這是第一點要澄清的第二點我們陸委會的立場還是一樣就是說基本上"},{"start":9076.997,"end":9106.145,"text":"基本上我們尊重內政部的解釋是所有的所謂的外國籍就是中華民國以外的國籍所謂外國籍就是中華民國以外的國籍那而不管說這個國家是我們承認還是不承認或者說我們只是認為他是一個政治實體或者是一個武裝團體等等都是一樣譬如說北塞浦路"},{"start":9106.636,"end":9133.464,"text":"北塞浦勒斯共和國他在全世界只有土耳其承認他在全世界只有土耳其承認但是如果一個人他同時擁有中華民國國籍也有北塞浦勒斯共和國的國籍那我們還是會要求他必須要放棄北塞浦勒斯的國籍他才能夠擔任中華民國的公職人員"},{"start":9134.778,"end":9160.845,"text":"所以以上是這兩個跟大家釐清一下然後另外一個最後是關於最近有一些說法就是說用宣誓效忠的等等但是因為這個在我們的相關法律裡面其實並沒有任何這樣的規定並沒有這樣的規定而且其實宣誓之後它的法律效力到底是什麼"},{"start":9162.066,"end":9175.976,"text":"宣誓的法律效力到底是什麼其實並不清楚那如果說有學者或是說有實務界的人士可以把宣誓的法律效力定義清楚的話我覺得這個也許可以討論好謝謝"},{"start":9180.219,"end":9189.527,"text":"感謝 現在我們依從有回應的說明 請各位專家合作有需要第一輪的發言後來我們請廖律師"},{"start":9201.86,"end":9202.54,"text":"來 請問我們的學者專家"},{"start":9234.36,"end":9235.321,"text":"吳教授謝謝 我只是要說明憲法第二章的基本權在17條 人民有選舉權在大法官會議解釋290條它選舉權就包含了被選舉權然後憲法第18條就是扶公子權所以這些參政權都是基本權"},{"start":9258.855,"end":9263.124,"text":"再來在公民與政治權利國際公約它也是產民公民權就是基本權那它裡面事實上它有被選舉權跟選舉權"},{"start":9270.666,"end":9283.575,"text":"更重要他是合理的限制是可以但是不可以限制到沒有這個權所以這個是人民也是國民也是公民非常重要的權利那今天我們事實上也在講他的國民權跟公民權為什麼這麼講呢因為某一個立委有特別講到"},{"start":9292.142,"end":9311.292,"text":"中國大陸地區人民享有中華民國的主權嗎可是事實上我們今天講的是已經規劃我國國民您有身分證甚至涉及10年的公民權不要扯太多 因為扯太多的話甚至我們都要討論事實上中國大陸人民到底可不可以規劃為我們的國民"},{"start":9313.673,"end":9318.295,"text":"是不是規劃為我國國民他可不可以有選舉權都要討論了那我們是不是又要討論古巴啦或者是伊朗啊他可不可以規劃為美國公民因為美國所有規劃的人都可以擔任國會議員所以我們看到了那個局長的資料我也非常佩服他說包含了英國美國甚至於"},{"start":9340.206,"end":9346.011,"text":"德國法國日本都可以擔任國會議員所以當然我非常贊成的是我們可以去討論忠誠義務但是這個忠誠義務2016年的時候我們就已經討論非常多了"},{"start":9356.738,"end":9376.729,"text":"而且這個忠誠義務已經做了考量甚至於我們法都沒修十年了十年都沒有修怎麼會在一夕之間這個陸配的憲法的公民權變化這麼大所以我覺得法律我站在法律的立場它有一致性注意它的一致性非常重要謝謝謝謝我們請專家來幫助李教授"},{"start":9389.993,"end":9412.536,"text":"謝謝主席很快的回應起點第一個剛剛吳老師說到的公民權的部分不管是這個外國人或是中國大陸人都一樣在國際法第十條也有規定就算是外國人他也要十年所以基本上這是一律公民權的這個規劃者就取得 即受國際取得者的這個權利是一致的並沒有特別針對陸配做特殊的規定那第二個"},{"start":9413.383,"end":9433.515,"text":"為什麼要用這個國籍法 剛剛劉委員提到 兩條例規定是滿十年才取得參政權但是取得參政權之後 兩條例第一條也告訴你了這個兩條例當中如果沒有規定的話 適用其他法律規定取得參政權之後你就要回來看當你真的當選了 你要放棄國籍那個部分"},{"start":9434.028,"end":9462.445,"text":"就回到國際法所以這個邏輯是這樣子的因為兩條也沒有規定所以如果這樣子是就都是銜接上也符合法律的穩定性那第三個就是說在這樣子的過程中有提到說那中國是不是很沒有辦法拿到相關的這個放棄國籍證明我告訴各位是可以的我告訴各位是可以的那我不展開相關的研究這有研究可以說有些國家他是用宣誓取代有些國家他就是要你拿到這個證明但是"},{"start":9462.97,"end":9474.438,"text":"中國的政策他是曠日廢時你可能要幾個月要幾年要很長一段時間但是國外的法體力是有這樣子放棄中國國籍證明之後加入這個國籍而且去參政的這是第三個"},{"start":9475.14,"end":9502.719,"text":"最後一個就是說基本上所以看到現在整套的一個發體力當中其實重點是在於我們希望兩個部分一個是維持所有的規劃者不管是新住民不管是這個外配、中配所有的新住民他是一致性的這樣子的一個參政的平等今天為了中配特別拉出來說不需要取得放棄國籍證明那其他國家的配偶呢其他國家的新住民"},{"start":9503.533,"end":9520.141,"text":"這樣子這是反而破壞了平等權然後再一個就是說剛剛忠誠義務我就不提了第二個當然是忠誠義務的問題這個我就很多都提過就不提了最後一點就是說剛剛吳老師也提到說美國英國法國這剛剛我報告也提到了我們要考慮的是不同"},{"start":9520.954,"end":9546.231,"text":"類型的民主國家他所面臨到的整體的參政制度應該怎麼安排你可以考慮美國的沒有問題但是你也可以考慮布魯地亞三小國的你可以考慮英國的沒有問題但是你也可以考慮澳洲的這是國際上兩種不同的趨勢我們應該統統整整來考慮特別是當我們面對到中國這麼強大的敵對的壓力的時候我們應該更整整來思考怎麼樣維持這個參政權的這個"},{"start":9549.946,"end":9561.184,"text":"公平性 維持參政選對於國家安全跟忠誠的一個保障性我覺得東西可能是要橫平一起來思考的 謝謝謝謝南嘉澄滬教授"},{"start":9569.147,"end":9592.9,"text":"幾點快速補充一下就是說剛剛提到的那個我們可不可以用我們宣誓來作為一個替代的一個方案那我必須講說目前我們沒有國際法上的權限去幫中華人民共和國去發聲產生真正效力的那個撤銷他的國籍或是終止他的國籍所以呢"},{"start":9594.24,"end":9622.469,"text":"國際法是這樣授予國籍是一個主權的行使撤銷國籍也是主權的行使所以呢各國呢只要他是合乎真正的聯繫的話還有公約裡面的規定比如說公約說他如果是他國的申請就是規劃為他國國民或是說他去他國當兵或是說他去當任他國的公務人員或是說他從事外國的間諜或是說他他是去外國"},{"start":9624.742,"end":9646.002,"text":"從事這個恐怖活動那麼這些活動的話你可以撤銷國籍因為這裡有公約上1963年的這個防止這個無國籍的這個公約以及歐洲國籍公約裡面有規定所以你只要合乎那個規定你才能夠撤銷那個國籍"},{"start":9647.003,"end":9676.783,"text":"但是那個撤銷是他們本來的原來的國家才有辦法撤銷假設我們說好我們用一個自我宣示的一個方式那對不起你沒有辦法達到說消滅對方的國籍的一個效果而是你開的例外變成說他可以變成雙重國籍然後留在台灣然後繼續從事公職是變成只有這個效果而已沒有產生一個國際法的效果就說他的國籍就已經取消了那我們還是維持住我們的單一國籍的一個公務人員並沒有這樣的一個效果"},{"start":9677.604,"end":9688.946,"text":"另外裡面關於撤銷國籍公約可以被承認的就是說你不可以去他國擔任公務人員"},{"start":9690.276,"end":9710.055,"text":"或是去擔任去當兵那這個是特別的嚴重的違反這個中程義務的衝突那這裡面有特別的點出來所以我們對於國民呢你可不可以同時又有外國的國籍又同時又擔任公務人員這件事情呢在這裡就是公約認為是特別的不相容"},{"start":9710.795,"end":9735.294,"text":"所以我們在這裡必須要特別的謹慎那麼就算是承認雙重國籍的目前也慢慢的要來增加要討論要撤銷的引進撤銷雙重國籍的國籍的這個規定今年的那個德國總理就說如果在德國反猶太犯了刑事犯罪而反猶太的這個極端主義者要考慮要撤銷他的國籍以及"},{"start":9736.155,"end":9751.135,"text":"如果說你不符合德國的這個自由民主基本秩序的話他在內政部的報告裡面他說德國國際法第17條的法定喪失國籍的構成要件應該要擴充那些拒絕德國與歐盟的基本價值也要考慮撤銷國籍"},{"start":9752.589,"end":9773.786,"text":"還有芬蘭他們也都有這樣的一個討論說要引進比如說對不起我的時間到我最後一句就是說申請規劃要從對於有疑問的國家來要調高他的實現而不是降低他的實現他們會去問你是不是從歐盟國家民主法治國家要過來移民的還是說你是一個從極權國家過來的謝謝謝謝大家陳先生局長"},{"start":9783.299,"end":9783.32,"text":"嗨"},{"start":9789.133,"end":9817.554,"text":"主席還各位專家學者還有部會的首長那剛剛聆聽了很多這個意見那覺得這個講的其實各有一個觀點那我還是要一個強調就是說4至第385號解釋那個就是法律就是權利義務相關連的話那我們的法律是不能割裂適用那所以今天這個案子因為我們在"},{"start":9818.379,"end":9843.579,"text":"目前就是因為憲法徵求條文第11條他的規定特別規定所以有兩岸關係條例那第21條其實他有規定有關任職相關的一個事項所以應該這個規定的話應該就是我們還是回歸到那個兩岸關係條例第21條或者第22條的相關規定這樣可能就是不會違反那個"},{"start":9844.439,"end":9854.729,"text":"4至第385號解釋所謂的不能割裂適用的這個法律規定以上這個補充 敬請各位指教 謝謝謝謝 專家還有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":9860.526,"end":9886.991,"text":"我們感謝各位專家提供報告的意見所有出席人員、發言人提供的書面資料刊登公報以後我們會另外製作公聽會報告向本議專體委員及所有出席"},{"start":9889.832,"end":9894.877,"text":"領館做參考在此感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天會講聽會到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"166172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6b1ee394bfeb7f5f2f5825bef527349e8bc9d0f3d41ed02345298a28bd9a4829e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"15:50:19 - 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那我們繼續往下看兩岸人民國際條例當中21條也寫得很清楚社集會滿10年不能夠擔任公職滿10年就可以所以今天的問題不是國際法有漏洞而是民進黨政府錯誤的法律想想看在蔡英文總統時期有出現這個問題嗎沒有啊賴清德總統上台的時候才是問題"},{"start":182.165,"end":199.104,"text":"造成了他自己在競選的時候辯論的時候他說他當選全台灣不會發生戰爭但是現在就是一直在兵兇戰危的情況所以是民進黨政府在造成的政府整個制度的大混亂我想直接說明三點"},{"start":205.313,"end":226.469,"text":"來說明為何要修的是兩岸人民關係條例而不是要修國籍法第一國籍法不是適用陸配的國籍法本來就是要處理外國人但陸配呢是大陸地區人民是兩岸人民關係條例處理的對象這是憲法授權法律明定沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":227.95,"end":245.202,"text":"第二讓陸配提出放棄大陸籍證明根本做不到中國對我國並沒有配套制度這份文件也不存在但政府卻要陸配拿出不存在的文件來證明這就變成是"},{"start":246.943,"end":266.474,"text":"要有人會撤銷他的戶他的戶籍有人沒事但是完全在我們國內的這是沒有一致性的社會因此就再造成更多的一個對立第三真正的漏洞是在兩岸人民關係條例現行的第21條只要規範就就不能夠參選"},{"start":268.174,"end":288.892,"text":"他只規範的是說如果你沒有放棄戶籍的話你不能參選但是並沒有規範當選後的忠誠義務也沒有明確國安的程序的國安考量這部分才會造成的所謂行政機關自由性證法院判決不一致陸配家庭非常的焦慮造成的裡面的社會的緊張現在民眾黨所要提出來的就是要補救的是"},{"start":296.354,"end":304.297,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例而不是國籍法這個是我們跟國民黨不一樣的地方我必須講清楚而是要把兩岸人民關係條例把它補強補到完整那我們主張方向非常清楚是什麼呢第一不要剝奪陸配的權利他們尤其是參政權"},{"start":314.201,"end":340.448,"text":"那為什麼 因為他們是領我國民中華民國的身份證的國民也是公民 而且他們是十年之後才能夠參選才能夠登記齁 那若騙在台生活十年以上他們納稅工作 也是在養小孩是社會的一份子 是制度給他們一條清楚的路而不是他們要活在這個不確定裡面第二個 我們的方法就是用公開忠誠宣誓取那不可能取得的文件既然"},{"start":343.26,"end":358.625,"text":"放棄大陸籍的證明拿不到那就不應該再用這個標準了改成公開宣示中華民國遵守憲法體制不受境外指揮這是大家做得到也那個為數公職的正當性大家說那這有沒有國際的這個案例呢有喔"},{"start":360.14,"end":385.308,"text":"這是有國際的案例的在宣示的制度的其他國家包括美國加拿大澳洲英國德國等國家對於他加入公職成為公職或是加入國籍他都要宣示忠誠這個地方就是本黨未來要提出的這個方向就在思考的方向這不是台灣獨創而是民主國家的共同做法"},{"start":386.775,"end":403.91,"text":"最後 本席要反映出來很多的陸配家庭真的很焦慮因為制度很不清楚 標準不一致但陸配不是外國人國際法本來就不是處理他們的法律但是現在如果內政部部長自己流失方面錯用法律"},{"start":404.631,"end":432.868,"text":"他是不是適任到一個當內政部部長還在製造我們的很多社會的問題正確的方向就是把兩岸人民關係條例補起來補到每一個人都知道該怎麼做怎麼樣的方向去進行陸派的參政權公職的擔任公職權利不應該讓行政機關隨意的解釋法律中明文有的就要去進行要逮捕的兩岸人民關係條例去修法不就可以了就可以達成了"},{"start":433.348,"end":452.867,"text":"我們需要的不是對立而是制度清楚這樣能保障所以跟我們一般一樣的都已經進入到成為我們國民甚至是十年之後擁有公民權的陸配的權利這樣台灣才是一個融合和可以共同在一起為大家的共同的目標在努力的這樣子一個社會"},{"start":454.228,"end":467.659,"text":"也能維護到我們國家安全忠誠的制度靠宣示公開的宣示在正式到就職之前到選舉單位去宣示這一部分多一個宣示公開呈現可能就是一個方向好 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為什麼因為憲法徵銷條文第10條明白的寫著"},{"start":207.965,"end":224.748,"text":"國家對於僑居國外國民之政治參與應予保障所以在中華民國地區有國籍的中華民國國民才享有國家的主權才得以選舉總統才得以選舉立法委員才得以變更領土才得以修憲這個跟其他的法律啊夏威法律他寫在這裡啊所以"},{"start":233.018,"end":256.244,"text":"要談國計畫請先兩岸人民關係條例先回到我們憲法本文跟任意的條文兩岸人民關係條例規範的是什麼兩岸自由地區跟大陸地區間人民的權利義務能夠把大陸地區的人民可以來擁有中華民國國民享有中華民國的主權嗎沒有啊"},{"start":257.256,"end":276.777,"text":"甚至連原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外他因為在國內超過時間他失去了戶籍他戶籍牽扯到戶籍所在地連這樣的原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外因為憲法徵銷權明白規定要保障他的參政權他才得以"},{"start":277.659,"end":292.485,"text":"在總統大選前六個月反國回復戶籍對不起修正他必須在國外必須對於他反國投票必須循法律的規定他才能選總投票給總統請問僑居國外的僑民回來國內他可以投給立法委員嗎不行要依法律的規定他先必須恢復戶籍"},{"start":305.424,"end":332.395,"text":"在都復席地停留滿四個月以上所以我們知道連原來中華民國國民僑居國外的人都受到這麼嚴格的規範所以當我們在這裡提出大陸地區的人民他要如何來行使中華民國的主權包括很明顯的參政權變更領土修憲選舉總統選舉立法委員當然要規定我在這裡不得不稍微批判一下花點時間這裡面我們有位我們前的局長說"},{"start":333.991,"end":349.688,"text":"所謂的登記為公職候選人是什麼意思因為中華民國不僅是允許雙重國籍你人民可以雙重國籍但是你公職人員必須是單一國籍包括誰 包括僑民"},{"start":351.331,"end":377.327,"text":"如果說所謂的僑選的部分區立法委員如果你是僑民你擁有僑居地的國籍你就算是列為部分區的立法委員你當選後一年內必須放棄台灣以外的國籍連僑民這麼明顯強烈的自由地區居住的原國民他僑居之後他回來他可以參選有沒有叫他參選前就放棄啊沒有啊"},{"start":378.444,"end":405.851,"text":"我們要求當部分區僑選的立法委員要求這些立委先放棄他在僑居地的國籍嗎沒有因為他會不會當選不知道啊他排名在他的部分區名單如果他登記為部分區的名單他就要放棄僑居地的國籍那這是對他國家容許他保障雙重國籍的剝削同樣的大陸地區的人民他來到台灣之後他在取得台灣的國籍的同時"},{"start":406.752,"end":425.064,"text":"他仍然可以保留對岸的護障對岸的國籍因為台灣是容許雙重國籍的所以容許你參選你必須10年以上 社福籍10年以上但是但是你落選了你還是維持你的雙重國籍啊這跟僑民是沒什麼兩樣的"},{"start":426.57,"end":454.786,"text":"只是對於來自大陸地區的人民我們有兩個規定第一個要選擇擔任公職他參選要10年以上要擔任軍職人員要20年以上為什麼因為大陸地區目前是由敵對勢力所控制所以來自於大陸地區這個人民他在台灣他可以擁有雙重國籍但是他要擔任公職必須有戶籍10年以上才能參選沒當選你還是可以保留"},{"start":455.626,"end":462.832,"text":"如果你要擔任軍職想要從軍擔任志願的軍人你必須涉及滿20年以上這個有規定有不得已嗎我們中華民國憲法第130條國民年滿20歲有選舉權年滿23歲有被選舉權這是一個普通規定特別規定規定什麼總統我們憲法第45條中華民國國民年滿40歲得選舉總統"},{"start":485.703,"end":498.734,"text":"所以縱使是國民我們的選舉權也會有特別的規定所以當我們在國際法裡面對於規劃的國民外國人可以規劃為台灣的國民他規劃為國民他在規劃的時候已經放棄了雙通國籍了所以規劃的國民有沒有辦法參選公職可以呀可以呀"},{"start":513.22,"end":537.923,"text":"但是你大陸地區的人民你取得台灣的戶籍跟身份證你有行規劃的時候的放棄國籍嗎沒有啊沒有啊先不談參政我們來談健保僑民過去在國內使用健保很普遍但是從今年開始抱歉過去你只要回來台灣"},{"start":539.461,"end":567.324,"text":"你健保繳費滿半年以上你就可以使用健保現在是規定啊如果你簽出台灣戶籍簽出台灣你必須持續繳健保費你才能回到台灣來才能繼續使用健保如果你中間有斷掉對不起請你補齊了你才能參加健保健保跟民主制度都是台灣的驕傲連本國的僑民因為僑居海外他要回來使用健保都必須接受這樣的權利義務對等規定"},{"start":568.786,"end":590.971,"text":"但是但是我們對大陸地區人民他取得台灣的戶籍之後他當然可以享受健保連他的家人依親也可以請問規劃的台灣的外國人規劃台灣的外國人他的外國的家人不具有台灣國籍的家人可以這樣子嗎不可以呀"},{"start":593.735,"end":610.629,"text":"所以今天如果是我們的法律制度我們歧視大陸地區的人民這是絕對錯的因為我們對大陸地區人民之間的權利特別的權利義務關係李前總統說過台灣自由地區跟大陸地區是一個特殊的國與國關係"},{"start":613.394,"end":642.3,"text":"國語國聽好啊所以他們是不是本國人是特殊的外國人而他這個特殊的外國人的身份優於其他普通的外國人所以當我們今天喊國際法談兩國人民關係條例請看清楚憲法第二條第三條以及憲法政協條文第十一條的規定憲法政協條文第一條第二條第四條都清楚的規定中華民國的主權屬於全體國民所有"},{"start":643.103,"end":664.52,"text":"有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民選舉總統選舉立委變更領土修改憲法必須由自由地區的選舉人為之連僑民他要行使在台灣的參政權都必須循相關特殊法律的規定我們在這裡並沒有對不起來自大陸地區的人民我們歡迎他加入自由地區"},{"start":665.345,"end":673.532,"text":"這是自由地區那邊不是不自由的地區你從不自由的地區來到自由地區我們歡迎你接受這裡的民主自由法治"}]}},{"id":"166169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d618d3706f77f29faaf5825bef527349e8bc9d0f3d41ed0234b606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"14:54:12 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要就任這三個是不同的階段這三個在法律上都是有不同的效果的規定所以絕對不能夠混為一談否則這些不同的法律針對剛剛講的不同的事項做規定就變成沒有意義了"},{"start":59.275,"end":77.387,"text":"那我們先來看第一個階段第一個階段叫取得身份證取得身份證國民黨日前提出的中配六改四就是針對取得身份證他想要讓中國的配偶更快的取得身份證當時的這個理由是說想要去對齊其他這一個外國配偶的規定這其實是個假議題"},{"start":78.548,"end":96.28,"text":"為什麼呢?因為今天不管你是用什麼3加2、3加1、4加2等等之類的大家要知道一般不是中國的這個外國配偶他因為在這個階段他就要回去做國籍的處理而這個時候在每個國家都需要很長的一段時間"},{"start":97.361,"end":115.134,"text":"所以真正他所需要的時間絕對不是四年那麼簡單不是法律規定的四年他還必須要加上他在自己的國家要去處理他的國籍戶籍所以他的時間會拉到六年七年而中國的配偶反而在這個取得身份證沒有這個問題"},{"start":116.471,"end":132.658,"text":"所以中配又把它改成六改四想要讓取得身份證這個實質上就是讓他取得身份證的時間縮短這是第一個階段第二個階段叫登記參選登記參選其實不論是哪一個國家的配偶都是一樣都是十年"},{"start":133.318,"end":148.315,"text":"這其實是很公平的沒有任何差異的但在第三個階段就是這一次修法會出現異議的部分就是任職就是他如果當選了他就任的時候他就任他必須要放棄他原來的國籍"},{"start":148.996,"end":178.306,"text":"然後提出證明那在一年之內呢要確保真的有放棄國籍在這一件事情上面呢我們是按照國籍法的規定那現在的爭議是什麼呢爭議就是說中國的配偶要去適用兩岸條例的規定但很抱歉兩岸條例就是沒有規定兩岸條例規定的就只有登記第二階段的部分它不包含第三階段的部分這個法律是割裂的所以呢如果它不適用的話那我們就要去參照國籍法原本的精神嘛"},{"start":178.846,"end":205.274,"text":"那如果參照國籍法原本的精神他必須要放棄原本的國籍那中國是不是也要放棄這個理由其實根本也不需要上綱到憲法我們只要看境外敵對勢力很多人會講說是因為賴總統宣布了這一個中國是境外敵對勢力搞錯了中國一直都是境外敵對勢力刑法都已經修幾年了反滲透法都已經修幾年了境外敵對勢力就已經貼在法條上面了"},{"start":205.914,"end":215.217,"text":"中國的反分裂法就是把台灣當作敵對國家他就是可以武力進攻犯台他當然是境外敵對勢力啊不用講他就是境外敵對勢力那請問針對境外敵對勢力我們對於他們任職要更嚴格還是更寬鬆想也知道要更嚴格嘛這每一個國家每一個人任何的法律學者都應該可以很輕鬆得出這樣的一個結論才對啊"},{"start":230.987,"end":256.426,"text":"更不要講說中國有國家情報法國家情報法是針對具有中國國籍的國民可以協助必須要協助中國來收集情報那請問如果他不用放棄他自己國家的國籍的話那他不就可以在這邊收集情報嗎能夠在台灣收集情報然後他又是一個要進攻要佔領要併吞我們的國家這聽起來怎麼樣都沒有道理吧"},{"start":257.219,"end":285.375,"text":"我們現在已經沒有把它變嚴格我們現在是參照原本國籍法的精神就是比照一般的狀況來處理而已我覺得沒有變嚴格就已經是一個很大的問題了結果現在還要把它變得更寬鬆那這樣不就是把國家安全的門戶洞開嗎所以我必須要講在這個議題上面在每一個階段都想要去鬆綁這件事情這個絕對會造成國家安全毀滅性的打擊"},{"start":286.314,"end":299.002,"text":"不要忘記我們如果按照兩岸就算按照兩岸條例跟情報有關跟機密有關要20年請問立法委員民意代表能夠接觸國家機密會更少嗎還是更多"},{"start":300.051,"end":324.222,"text":"有沒有機密的會議能不能夠調機密的資料這個不就是我們的立法委員在為人民做監督的時候能夠取得的嗎所以如果在這一個方面呢甚至沒有到20年以上甚至不能夠來做利益衝突相關的這些規定都付之缺乳的狀況之下就用國際法的方式去把它做修正這個絕對是台灣的重大的國家安全的危機謝謝"},{"start":330.549,"end":335.64,"text":"謝謝我們家陳律師金石法律事務所"}]}},{"id":"166168","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6659ae5ceb2dba610f5825bef527349e8bc9d0f3d41ed0234b606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"14:31:42 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赵伟非常的知道会当选"},{"start":224.867,"end":248.514,"text":"所以參選跟當選當選公職又有民選的跟政治任命的是非常不一樣的那既然是中華民國的國民都應該適用這個普通法國籍法怎麼能夠隨意排除呢最後我也要提到一個國安風險跟保障我們自己的國民我們都知道剛剛提到愛沙尼亞拉脫維亞跟俄羅斯的關係"},{"start":250.094,"end":267.756,"text":"这个PRC对我们的敌意我们都非常的了解我们务实的从政治实务跟边境管理台湾跟中国互不隶属或者你要说ROC跟PRC互不隶属这是客观的事实这个PRC中国政权对我们有高度的敌意"},{"start":268.697,"end":283.142,"text":"一旦擔任公職之後如果我們允許我們的國民不放棄另一個國家或者你要說另外一個政治實體的戶籍你不是就是傷害他讓他可能會在執行公務的時候受到政治威脅嗎"},{"start":284.102,"end":303.576,"text":"那這樣子其實是傷害中華民國國民規劃後來自PRC的國民行使他完整的參政權我認為對所有規劃中華民國的就是外籍配偶包含中國籍配偶這樣子的修法才是傷害他們完整的參政權 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6827faebd798f45070bc060c38740833eab4060e56b9459679b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:13:24 - 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次長好多年來我國這個運動平權的公約可以說是簽好簽滿法律條文呢也不斷地修正那我們就來檢視一下我們台灣到底有沒有做到平權你看2017年這沒有話嘛 對不對來我們前面一下我們還是掃一下2017年我們有運動白皮書我們2020年我們就賀爾新基的女性運動宣言"},{"start":30.322,"end":45.47,"text":"2024年本席也提出了这个国体法第五条我们要求就这个平等这没有问题但是实际的状况是怎么样我们是一起来解释一下那次长我们可以看一下你看我们在东京奥运五十位教练当中只有六位女教练"},{"start":46.05,"end":72.332,"text":"巴黎奧運裡面呢也是五位大概都是佔一成多而已然後呢在2023年的這個亞奧運的這個A級教練證當中呢說實在的女性取得大概也是二成六然後呢我們奧運的這個幹部組成說實在的從主席副主席執行委員共25個人但是執行委員只有兩位所以呢佔比連一成都不到所以次長你怎麼來看待這樣的一個數據"},{"start":73.89,"end":87.387,"text":"這的確是一個看起來數字不是很好的一個狀況但是我們知道以中華奧會來講我理解前一陣子他們已經完成了執行委員的改選他們的女性的比例應該有達到三分之一"},{"start":87.952,"end":114.638,"text":"我個人覺得啦你政府口口聲聲說你要一個運動平權但是發生不平的一些事情之後呢這個我們還是來看看到底還有哪一些的事件啊你看女性選手這個都是我們看到的2022年我們的女足國家隊蔡明蓉她沒有當選但是呢你看她沒有當選會員代表還在會中高喊你有本事選上啦如果全部給你們當都沒關係啦有必要講成這個樣子嗎2024"},{"start":116.898,"end":139.5,"text":"穷四边的篮球这个协会里面的女男每个人出赛费是3000男男是5000同工不同酬2024呢我想次长也知道足协逼迫这个女足国家队签订的不平等的一个合约嘛那就里面都是禁止的事项然后呢还说也不分钱给选手还威胁说不签约以后就没有办法有球体"},{"start":140.32,"end":160.668,"text":"那2025了这个大家都很清楚了也是国家认为真的是非常丢脸的一件事情纽西兰跟我们的台湾女足进行邀请赛的时候因为这个场地的关系让我们没有办法在这个非正式场都是在非正式场地在排练最后因为正式场地没有办法让出来取消都是女性发生的事情"},{"start":163.292,"end":183.169,"text":"這樣告訴我們 我們真的有做好做滿嗎我不能夠說我們已經做好做滿了我們的確還有非常大的空間去改善但是每次發生這些事情的時候呢很多時候對於你們大家都只是出來道歉然後說會改正然後對於很多單向協會的考評發生這些事情但是呢 說實在的 也還是補助造給"},{"start":185.111,"end":210.758,"text":"也没有特别说因为这样子然后就有受到任何一点的影响所以呢你说怎么样达到这个运动平权更不要说我们来看一下嘛总统上一次举办的这个三对三的这个这个篮球赛也有很多不平等的事情啊我想就有很多人协会跟我们反映啊在转播上面吗男女比率10比08比4这两天当中然后呢上一届这个全运会的女足实际上转播都没有"},{"start":211.218,"end":231.212,"text":"那这当然是倾向到转步的一个单位好我们当然可能可以智慧的空间不是太多但场地我们总算可以吧你看B场地的时候大部分都是给男子使用C场地旁边没有防护的时候给女子来使用你光是这样子场地的使用上女性就跟男性来说就很不平等啊次长你知道这个状况吗"},{"start":232.048,"end":261.24,"text":"这一个单独这个比赛我不知道这个状况但是我可以跟委员承诺的是我们部成立以来部长对于这件平权的事情极端的重视我们会从内部的控制当中逐步的去我只告诉你说蓝框下面有任何保护措施给我们女性而且次长你像已经担任我们第一届的性平这个专案小组的召集人我想我们要期待由你主导的这样子的一个性平的这样子的委员会怎么样能够让它落实这是我们要看到的好不好给你更多的一个期许谢谢"},{"start":262.18,"end":280.295,"text":"然后接下来我们来看一下运科计划当中这个应该你非常的清楚当初我们就曾经提到的这运科支援的计划里面呢其实有发生了一些的问题然后呢就有提到的可能也有假训练之民行人体实验之实那我想请问一下"},{"start":280.996,"end":297.723,"text":"在9月的时候呢你们成立专案小组全面清查然后你们认为说的确在送IRB这件事情上面体育组在督导上面是有一些的缺失的有没有人因此受到惩处在你们体育署里面目前为止还没有为什么跟你们没关吗"},{"start":298.624,"end":323.505,"text":"是这样子的因为我们当时在推动运科资源基层的事情其实是希望运科的能量能够到基层去我们延续了过去的做法但是有发生过这件事情虽然我们有很多我还是认为你们还是监察院调查是一回事但是你们的行政调查你们也需要因为运动部9月时候才自请送监察院的调查目前的结果是怎么样还在调查中"},{"start":324.448,"end":351.366,"text":"你们这样子调查的真的是你知道有很多的案件只要是跟一些比较敏感有关他们是其实非常的快的然后不解的是监察院还没有调查完毕运动部却在11月12日的时候跨部会的专案小组当中邀请国体大韩转学校请计划主持人立即销毁参与人的个资体检统计数据这在消灭证据吗如果监察院需要补全证据这怎么办"},{"start":351.886,"end":373.727,"text":"为什么要发函做这样的事情不是要消灭证据如果当时的采集收集资料前面的步骤不完善我们要求他们毁掉所有的个资那如果这些牵涉到他们未来调查的这个细项呢你现在马上就发函难免会让人家觉得有这样的一个部分还有一个可能是次长你也很熟的"},{"start":374.147,"end":394.558,"text":"可能不是做运科支援计划设计人体还有原住民选材专案这是过去没有被抓没有被关注到的所以说次长培育优秀原住民学校的运动人才执行计划然后呢要来运动医学检测实际化你是计划主持人没错吧是的就了解这个计划同样"},{"start":395.757,"end":418.002,"text":"同样是在没有相关知情同意书下面也对选手做抽血检测的情况这你了解吗我了解因为当时是帮他们做身体检查我们一律由医院来执行我们希望运动员参与运动之前身体是可以被训练市长把这些相关资料给本席一下因为它会不会牵涉到未来的研究发表会不会有未来的研究发表"},{"start":418.382,"end":439.921,"text":"目前為止從來沒有發表這些數字都不會發表對不對因為你發表的話你勢必要牽涉到IRB的這樣的檢驗你有沒有考慮過連即使是在做這樣的事情也要做也要通過IRB的檢驗有沒有考慮過因為發生這麼多的事情根據我們跟衛福部的溝通這種類似用已知的方法去了解選手狀況的是不需要送IRB的但是"},{"start":440.481,"end":442.102,"text":"接下来我们再来看一下有关于禁药的问题"},{"start":470.842,"end":485.602,"text":"大家知道吧这个我们的这个奥运的这个巴黎奥运的定向飞宝铜牌李孟远因为呢使用了这个有静药成分的眼药水所以他被禁赛还被禁赛到明年1月7号"},{"start":486.363,"end":509.953,"text":"而且这已经不是第一次有国手因为误用这个禁药然后得到他们的存的还有我们的网球国手曹佳怡也因为误食了这个药进城的感冒药也被禁制到2月28怎么解决这么多的选手因为我们这样子的督导步骤让他们的这个权益受到损失运动部怎么来解决这个问题是不是有必要要把它变成法治化这么多人都已经这么提到了"},{"start":511.038,"end":529.258,"text":"再多的法治化如果选手本身不为自己的行为负责因为在WADA的认知当中他是采取严格责任他家李孟远是由医护人员给他提供抹他的眼药水导致于他这样的一个问题他是由护理人员提供的不是他个人"},{"start":530.319,"end":554.669,"text":"那你有没有了解护理人员给药的一个行为是不是经过医嘱的一个确认这个你是不是要回去了解一下如果不是这个样子的话不会今天放到这个地方来做质询每个人都要为自己的行为负责但是如果说是其他的因素呢这怎么样来而且有人提到说有关禁药的概念当中的话我还是认为这个部分里面来我们往下看运动员跟我们反映很多时候呢这样的一个基金会的演"},{"start":555.549,"end":572.411,"text":"讲习的品质不佳上课时候讲的内容很多的错误包括药品的成分还有呢线上的测验平台很形式化这都是选手来跟我们反映的事实上你不能只是用一个运动员需要为自己来负责来带过这都是一员亲身的一个经验可不可以彻底去了解"},{"start":572.731,"end":598.86,"text":"教育的部分我们一定会加强我们的督导的力度的确教育是最重要的这个部分的平台已经太多事情还是强调一句话不要因为这些的措施然后让我们的运动员损失了他们上场为国家这个比赛的一个机会这是我们不断的强调的很多内部有很多问题已经讲了非常多的请市长充分去了解最后一分钟我还是要问一下运动教练的部分防"},{"start":599.74,"end":620.87,"text":"這個我們的這個權動署的署長房瑞文署長有沒有在署長我還是要問這也是屬於競技司的問題啊你現在已經高升了但是我還是要跟你要一個東西去年9月18號我們開的公聽會你告訴我一個月內之內要來對於運動教練的考核辦法要來給我們提出了一個部分現在你對"},{"start":622.614,"end":640.279,"text":"去年9月18號的時候我們要開個公聽會全部人曾志強都在張亮也都在大家都在你告訴我一個月之內對於考核辦法我們對於一年一小考三年一大考每個都有意見那我現在你們的考核的增進標準在哪裡還是你忘記你已經講過這句話"},{"start":642.1,"end":659.385,"text":"好了我不管你们怎么样我只把历史弄出来你们必须给我考核的办法还有最后呢你看看上次我也开了一个公听会然后呢就有一个明明带队成绩很好的像全国Junior High这个HBL的史无前例破了五连霸的冠军教练被评为一等哎"},{"start":660.365,"end":688.122,"text":"被評為已等欸再怎麼努力都沒有用就是你們制度出了一些的問題啦讓這些運動教練真的是已經為國被幫這些學生選手帶來這麼好的成績就回到學校去之後呢因為制度不佳然後呢常常被迫在這邊做這樣的一個考核的機制這樣有哪個辦法留住體育人才我已經講了非常多次而且你們承諾我要給我一個所謂的精進的計畫考核的標準要重新設定到目前為止都沒看到你們這次承諾什麼時候給我最後來 趙偉對不起"},{"start":690.223,"end":701.95,"text":"什麼時候 9月18號告訴我10月18號可以那現在已經是 給人家廣告啊12月那時候應該是說邀請各縣市政府針對這一題來討論好 沒問題 那你們開了幾場開了幾場 好啦各縣市政府讓你們開了幾場"},{"start":708.53,"end":736.26,"text":"好啦不管啦12月今天12月3號什麼時候給我去年9月18號到今年已經一年多了你們也跟各縣市的專業教練已經講了差不多了請告訴我把這些跟專業教練的部分告訴我最後告訴我什麼時候把上次開會的一個會議紀錄的資料再整理一下給委員不是你的考核你們不是要不是要把考核的辦法做一個整體的一個一個檢討嗎那個考核有沒有因此就津津跟過去不一樣什麼時候可以給我"},{"start":740.796,"end":749.806,"text":"我們一個月內給補員好嗎一個月好明年1月4號再沒有的話真的是好很好我們就好好來審預算謝謝柯先生"}]}},{"id":"166079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6fbbd837e182abe9109a18256bf6bdfebab4060e56b945967cf300a208d967c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:25:28 - 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經濟學人雜誌前幾天一篇關於台灣跟美金之間的匯率被嚴重低估的報導"},{"start":18.394,"end":47.017,"text":"雖然馬上就被央行跟美國一起出來開記者會說明把這個東西給澄清了那從這邊引申而來就是跟剛剛前面的委員提到類似的問題但我用不同的問法現在我們國家目前的受險公司它在外國投資的金額總共是多少現在總共 目前剛剛提到委員剛剛提到22兆左右22兆左右那因為這個在外國投資"},{"start":48.949,"end":77.931,"text":"所要花的這個避險的這個費用就是為了這個匯率的風險避險的費用大概是多少如果每年不一樣還有根據比如說台美的這個利差不同像今年的話有可能會逼近4000億就是說如果風險沒有發生我們這4000億的錢也就是花掉了就是說因為整個避險工具很貴的話就過去平均來講的話就是2000到3000億左右對啦我就意思說這個錢就是花掉了"},{"start":78.297,"end":105.844,"text":"是就可能是產生資產的淨流出是那不是我的意思說因為我們是類似為了要規避風險所以我們才要買避險那我今年就算風險沒有發生我這錢也就花掉了那花掉了這個如果風險沒有發生就是覺得每年花這個錢很可惜其中最釜底抽薪的方法就是不能增加台灣的投資管道"},{"start":107.216,"end":120.737,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到我剛才提過就是說假設要解決受險人的問題有三個面向一個就是資產面向資產面向裡面很重要就是把那個不匹配扭回來其實很重要就是加大對台幣的投資我想這是一個方向"},{"start":121.749,"end":137.429,"text":"對 你想想看我們22兆多在外國的投資假設你能夠多投資台灣5兆 6兆那就有相當的比例至少那一部分需要避險的金額就降低了嘛所以需要花出去的成本就會降低嘛真正釜底抽薪的是要讓台灣"},{"start":139.249,"end":156.56,"text":"有好的資產或是好的方式可以投資那偏偏台灣的利率低那政府的公債又很久都沒有發行所以變成說這個投資的管道在台灣投資的管道越來越少你有沒有什麼好的想法可以讓台灣投資的管道可以增加"},{"start":156.84,"end":175.471,"text":"其實我也看到受請公司最近幾年的努力比如說他們第一個他們會自己去做一些比如說地上權或是一些不動產或是一些投資案的投資我想各位可以看到很多像比如說我們一些地區型的這些購物中心還有一些物流這些東西他們都在做"},{"start":176.124,"end":197.83,"text":"你們金管會有給他規定啊你如果要對這個商業不動產的這個投資或是要怎麼樣他有一個固定的那個基礎利率然後再加上三碼是不是我如果沒有記錯的話我們最近的話是用均速的方式因為最近的那個利率波動比較大所以過去我們是鎖定的我們最近把它調整成就是一個幾年平均的一個對 因為這個會造成一個問題就是會隨著利率"},{"start":202.386,"end":224.057,"text":"的浮動那不是投資在保險公司的可是會所謂的利率的浮動有的投資合法有的投資過去是可以現在變成不可以這個都事實上這個政策上面是有一些思考的空間對所以說剛剛跟文報告我們就因為也注意到這個問題我們很快的做出調整我想前一陣子如果文有注意到我們先把過去那個盯住一個定點的方式我們就把它調整成是一個"},{"start":225.738,"end":246.533,"text":"軍屬這樣會考慮到其實就好像他可能一簽約可能簽約三年五年他不可能在利率上升的時候他突然說我要調高是不可能所以我們也注意到我們也也把他納入到我們監理的考量就是因為這個是一個環境的變動所以我們有調整過就我了解的個案上面變得很多比較大額的投資就要經過你們同意那個經過你們同意的過程中"},{"start":247.679,"end":267.185,"text":"有的時候諸多種考量都在裡面不見得是不正確但是就會讓這個申請人覺得說他們也會有一個如果不順的時候也會有一個懷疑說金管會的標準是不是不一致對每個公司不一致或是對每個個案不一致會有這樣子的疑問產生"},{"start":268.385,"end":290.504,"text":"其實主要是說我想最近會比較大的爭議就是有些對公建的認定比如它的比例的問題就像我們現在很多地方政府跟很多的做一個開發案有些開發案的時候因為它有些有公民的參與所以有些部分可能涉及到比如說過去我們都不樂見受血液投資在住宅這上面有些還有就是說它的"},{"start":291.724,"end":318.474,"text":"可能是一個政府主辦但是公件的比例比較低所以我們就會有一個考慮實際上我們最近也有做一些明確的規定讓他們好遵循主委我是這樣想我們對保險公司如果要讓整個市場健全你要想方設法讓台灣可以投資的範圍而且當然這個投資是必須是有足夠性的保障所以"},{"start":320.003,"end":343.735,"text":"像之前提出說要對公共建設的投資可以來參與那對有一些參與但是也是冒著風險譬如說你以前說綠能可以投資那現在綠能的環境變得這麼差那已經投資進去了就會覺得說這我要被人家搬所以我們先撇開這個不講我認為金管會不是只有正在管理"},{"start":345.416,"end":372.693,"text":"你可能要想方設法跟政府部門溝通哪一些範圍是你認為可以增加投資標的其實委員剛才講沒錯其實我跟委員報告我在這方面其實跟很多的部會有那個部長都做過很多溝通其實都蠻正面只是說有些是有法令的障礙但我們都在突破中這是我們正在努力的方向包括像比如說國發會的兆元投資計畫裡面除了這裡面整體來講其實我們在已經的不斷的跟比如說"},{"start":374.053,"end":395.251,"text":"各个部会有可能列为可以国人可以投资的标的部分我们持续在努力中这是绝对是我们努力的方向就刚刚委员提到就是说其实国内的投资呢确实有它比较多的障碍比如报酬率的问题这是一个很明显的所以我刚才讲说要解决这个投资工具除了我们的资产面的报酬率很重要就是我们的受险公司的负债成本"},{"start":396.192,"end":423.541,"text":"如果能夠降低的話那自然他投資的能力就加強這也是我們努力的方向那這要看他的保單裡面他將來的支付要支付的金額的估算那是不是符合實際我舉一個例子我覺得其實有時候想法靈活就有可能可以改變譬如說天然氣的運輸船LND他一艘新造大概是3億美金那台灣其實需要這個船隊"},{"start":424.946,"end":451.364,"text":"那問題是過去我們都是叫賣方運來給我們我們把運價加記在裡面那台灣的買家就只有中油跟台電都是台灣的公司我們如果這個中油跟台電現在以他的資本額來講他們現在沒有辦法出得起這麼一下子出得起這麼大條錢因為你建這個船隊可能不是一條兩條喔可能要十幾二十條以上那這個對台灣的國家安全也很重要"},{"start":453.546,"end":479.788,"text":"這個議題有人在談你能不能把它結合在一起我舉個例子我們授權公司這麼多的錢如果這個運輸的權利東友跟台電願意釋放出來其實這個保險公司可以跟他們買債券買這個東西然後來做船隊然後這個只是把它原來要付給外國船隊的運輸費用付給這個台灣自己建立的這個船隊那這個光是這個投資至少也可以出現幾千億的台幣的這個金額"},{"start":481.48,"end":504.609,"text":"對 其實委員提到他很重要授權公司適合投資就是穩定長期固定報酬是很適合他那剛剛提到其實我們在那個那個跟財政部跟國化建的平台我們每次定期都有跟我們的業者諮詢說你有沒有什麼投資的標的像剛剛委員提到那個我覺得那個想法的部分我們也會帶回去請他們去評估一下這個可另外一點就是"},{"start":505.609,"end":511.932,"text":"有沒有什麼方法可以替代掉這個要去買這個避險的這個錢我舉個例子我4000億花出去那風險沒有發生當然我們不希望風險發生嘛"},{"start":519.261,"end":546.898,"text":"那錢就花掉了每一年兩千億三千億四千億這樣在花其實那個成本很高我如果一部分避險還是繼續但是一部分因為你知道嗎那個風險的那個極端值你買都是買到極端值出現嘛但是那個極端值出現的機率相對是越來越小的那小的風險的那一部分可能要付那有的東西是不是可以拿來充實這些保險公司的資本不用這樣花出去啊"},{"start":547.598,"end":573.117,"text":"確實沒有錯我們剛才提到就是說我剛才在委員答詢的時候我也提到就是說其實我們更關切的是說你怎麼樣強化未來的抵禦匯率風險的能力所以剛才講強制提撥跟止撥跟增資都是我們未來在整個做匯率改革的一個非常重要的相關的措施其實一個最大的問題就是這個避險的錢萬一發生了風險的時候"},{"start":576.738,"end":584.468,"text":"你認為你有沒有估算過那個金額會有多大其實我們有做過各種的前進我就舉個例子今年4100到底是買到多大的保障"},{"start":585.69,"end":612.691,"text":"其實這個東西就是我們大概剛才講我們的避險比例20就是大概15兆裡面大概六成左右剛才提到差不多六成那等於說我們大概可以算得出來大概基本上我記得在前幾次會議的時候我也跟大家報告說大概一塊錢大概就是2000億左右的波動對他的損益那其實上這個剛剛就可以推估出來大概多少的部位他們是在做避險"},{"start":614.916,"end":628.107,"text":"我剛剛那個問題對不起我追問一下就把它問清楚我舉個例子我們今年花了4000億如果像經濟學人說的應該台幣兌美金當然他是亂講我們不相信他說應該1比20那真的發生了1比20"},{"start":629.97,"end":651.515,"text":"這四千億的花出去錢買到的這個保障的這個匯率的這個損失有辦法完全填補嗎這很可惜沒有沒有嘛那所以我的意思是說要填補多少多少比例可以去填補就是那個牽涉到匯率有多快到達剛剛講那個期間因為我們現在的避險工具都是短期的避險工具所以只有一年內"},{"start":653.11,"end":669.943,"text":"這一年為了怕匯率的變動所以今年就要花4000億的錢因為我們的避險工具沒有提供長期所以它必須要一直轉都是短期短期有點像以短支長的概念它其實並沒有真正的能夠解決未來假設結構性的"},{"start":671.844,"end":693.151,"text":"變化所以你想想看這個實在是很可惜台灣每一年花了這麼多的錢就是花掉用什麼方法既可以讓這些保險公司這個匯率的變動的時候他還是能夠撐得住又不用花這麼大的成本各式各樣的方法應該趕快這也是我們覺得說從整個金融安定長遠的角度必須要"},{"start":694.191,"end":705.935,"text":"要做也要立刻做調整體質的這些事情我們會全力來做好 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蘇委長蘇委我請教因為有媒體報導金管會統計九月底整個整體授權業國外的投資扣除外幣保單後那整個外幣的曝險額有15.1兆元那以國外投資部分扣除外幣保單的風險價值估算"},{"start":37.452,"end":51.027,"text":"大約需要1.5兆元的這個外價金才足夠抵禦整個匯率的風險那主委就受選業第三季財報整體外匯價格變動"},{"start":54.502,"end":80.394,"text":"準備金第三季底餘額有3418.8億元那我請問差了將近1兆1500多億的外價金那這個到底要不要補足那如果真的要補足你認為受選業要多久才能夠讓資金到位"},{"start":80.979,"end":105.43,"text":"是謝謝委員關心我想主要剛剛提到是一個為什麼會有這個一兆元這樣左右的額度主要是我們根據過去的歷史經驗我們用VAR95就是我們所謂風險值95%來估計這個從一個白話講就是以20年的週期來看這個部分以20年過去的這個匯率的波動的話假設現在的外價金等於說有"},{"start":106.01,"end":133.193,"text":"累積到一兆多這樣的金額的時候呢大概可以抵禦這樣的一個金額那當然這是一個長期的過程那現在我們從今年開始我們到應該到了第三季的時候這部分的外價金應該會將近3800億那今年會應該會創下歷史新高因為我們今年到年底的時候我們還要強制提撥盈餘的30%明年在iPhone17開賬的時候呢會有有利影響數也會"},{"start":134.614,"end":157.574,"text":"也會這個這個增提這個外加金而且今年六月的時候已經有多家的這個受影公司申請外加金的薪資也會強提的比例會提高我想這個比例會快速的增加我想這部分也是對於未來我們在防範匯率風險的時候呢是會有比較比較好的這樣的抵禦能力那個主委啊"},{"start":158.234,"end":177.252,"text":"要是反過來外價金如果無法完全補足有沒有其他整個配套措施可以因應來搭配抵禦匯率的風險我想謝謝委任關心因為匯率的部分我們從過去的經驗來看的話其他是一個長期處於一個波動的狀態"},{"start":178.473,"end":193.349,"text":"我想這部分剛剛提到是一個極端情境比如說剛才講是VAR95的意思是說大概約莫20年的最低點的時候比如說台幣升值到最高點的時候我們大概需要但是實際上我們除非是持續維持在這樣一個比率"},{"start":193.889,"end":212.791,"text":"否則我們以這次的五月為例到現在為止從將近28塊多現在到31塊多其實這樣本來就處於一個相形整理的區間所以這部分我們就是持續的強化這個受險業的體質累積外價金的方式來抵禦未來長期的匯率的波動風險"},{"start":213.834,"end":231.935,"text":"主委因為授權業者指出十月全球股市續揚那授權業實現股票資本利得增加加上台幣貶值帶動整個外價金水位走揚那由於外價金水位充沛"},{"start":233.316,"end":257.23,"text":"10月業者避嫌比例第一次跌破6成降到58.6%的史上低點顯示以外加金替代避嫌策略成型那我請問主委授權業者外加金水位越高是不是代表匯率風險一定會越來越小"},{"start":258.01,"end":273.209,"text":"我想其實外價金是把它本來在匯兌的未實現收益把它轉化成一個負債的形式積存以備於未來假設真的出現了未實現損失的時候作為一個底沖減少對損益表的衝擊"},{"start":275.091,"end":304.313,"text":"我想剛剛提到委員很關心就是說我們的避險比率大概今年跌破六成其實在過去一直大概維持在六成一六成二今年就是五成八我想這個大概就是還在一個範圍之內確實是因為外價金因為提高以後確實我們在受險業在特別是對一些高成本的避險工具上面它就有比較大的彈性可以減少這個所謂類似像NDF這樣比較高成本的避險工具的比率"},{"start":305.054,"end":334.518,"text":"我想其實我們在很多學術上的討論都知道其實受險業的資金它長期沒有現金流利息兌回的風險所以我們維持一個高的避險比率也有很多學界的討論說這是所謂的過度避險真正的避險應該還可以有一些不一樣的考量我想主要市場上確實是因為委員提到就是說我們的外價金達到一定程度以後對於損益表的衝擊已經有一定的抵禦能力所以他們會從一個經營成本的考量做一些調整"},{"start":334.818,"end":360.199,"text":"那個主委因為面對外價金水位的替代避險的需求增加那你認為對營運規模不同的受選業者又會發生哪些的影響當然我們的營運規模最主要是來自資產資產來自於保費收取的能力保費收取的能力跟他的投資能力有關所以剛剛委員提到了規模越大的越仰賴國外的投資從過去一直都是這樣"},{"start":361.428,"end":380.373,"text":"我想規模越大的公司資產越大資產越大因為台灣的投資工具有限只好對外投資我想這也是剛剛委員提到就是說如果說越大的公司他對匯率的曝險比例會越高那他們在匯率上面的操作匯率風險操作就要更精細更仔細的去面對他們匯率的風險"},{"start":381.738,"end":402.918,"text":"主委啊媒體報導授權業者希望調整匯率會計制度以符合授權業的經濟實質的狀況而且強調這不是完全不避險而是希望減少不必要的避險建議調整整個會計制度後也要強化整個財報的揭露"},{"start":404.841,"end":425.163,"text":"把握把匯率的風險治理拉高到公司的策略層次那我請問主委你認為調整匯率會計制度關鍵的時機有關鍵的時機嗎我想其實如果是我們已經發現到就是說現階段的會計制度其實"},{"start":427.207,"end":447.497,"text":"當時並沒有考量到台灣壽險的特殊性我想最近有很多學術上面的討論我想也很多人也提出來確實我們現在這一套的所謂的對於這些國外的一些的投資採用這個即時匯率評價的方式不符合我們現在的壽險的經營模式我想這些已經很"},{"start":448.277,"end":476.193,"text":"很多的討論但是會計準則的本身並不會指導你做避險那避險是因為公司實際上承受的風險站在主管機關的立場我們更在意的就是說我們既然有投資在海外自然有匯率的風險的存在比如說財報如何表達是一回事但是財報的表達的本身它必須要允當表達但是公司面對的匯率風險該如何解決這是我們主管機關關心的所以剛剛委員也提到就是說"},{"start":477.469,"end":493.758,"text":"我們在過去有可能產生所謂的過度避險的問題導致就是說我付了很高的成本但是沒有實質的規避掉我長期的現金流風險這一點的話我們會透過剛才講的委員提到就是說是否可以用強制提撥強制增資的方式來達到強化體質應對未來長期現金流會對風險的問題"},{"start":499.761,"end":526.166,"text":"因為有業者提出將匯率風險納入董事會與高層高階的這些管理層的監督範圍或是透過明確界定的責任來建立定期報告機制或是定期評估匯率的變動對整個清償能力以淨值影響等以促進整體業者強化"},{"start":529.226,"end":535.291,"text":"經營的韌性那逐年來改善公司的體制我請問主委你認為這樣就足以讓受選業者視為將匯率風險充分揭露了嗎"},{"start":540.846,"end":562.64,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到那個外界的提案我是覺得一個很好的想法其實就我過去的經驗裡面董事會因為特別是針對像匯率這麼大的一個這個項目董事會在每一次董事會我想各家大受選公司應該都非常關注也都會提出報告我想這件事情是應該要做的因為確實我們這麼大的部位在海外投資確實面對到"},{"start":564.221,"end":572.627,"text":"整個的匯率的風險那匯率風險如果會影響我們長遠的清償能力本來就是董事會應該關切來討論一些要妥善找出方法的一個議題"},{"start":573.973,"end":601.006,"text":"主委因為媒體報導金管會推動受選業的非長期保證利率制度改革有譜重點之一是未來即使保護買的保單屬於非長期保證利率保惠也不會變動而是由保兒以及保駕金來進行彈性的調整主委一般"},{"start":601.946,"end":614.067,"text":"投保的觀念多半是高保惠高保兒那現在保惠不變動保兒卻可能發生彈性的調整那請問到底有哪些條件可以讓"},{"start":615.134,"end":636.003,"text":"保兒調低或是調高其次保兒如果發生彈性的調整是否可能會讓保單的道德危險機率提升委員其實問了一個非常深入的問題也是非常複雜的問題其實剛剛提到媒體有報導就是說我們已經排完其實並沒有這只是我們請那個"},{"start":638.904,"end":656.301,"text":"我們的周邊單位保發中心進行研議我想剛才委員提到強化受險業的體質過去我們比較著重是在所謂的淨值面就是增資其實未來強化體質它有三個面向可以來進行一個是資產面就剛才講把資產負債的配置把它改變"},{"start":657.222,"end":686.882,"text":"那再來第二個就是負債面負債面就是可以降低他的負債成本降低負債成本降低資產的成本那自然也降低了淨值的壓力所以我想這部分我們會三方來進行剛剛提到就是說其實過去壽險業長期在沒有考量到能力的情況之下做了非常多過度的保證導致整個成本轉嫁給社會我覺得這是不公平的所以我想在這部分未來會朝這個方向來做一個研議"},{"start":687.503,"end":700.025,"text":"主委因為保護所繳的保惠從而在扣除保險工資或行政支出後即為保單價值的準備金那現在保惠不變動如果是"},{"start":702.22,"end":725.191,"text":"會長期的保證利率保單保價金到底是調高還是調低的趨勢因為保價金彈性調整的結果是不是也會和實務上互稅發生連動的影響請主委您做一個參數說明我簡單說明一下因為就是剛剛委員提到都是沒有定案還沒有定案只是在討論中的東西我想今天來講就是說"},{"start":726.331,"end":747.33,"text":"我們今天為了確保對這個所謂的消費者這個是公平的因為比如說剛剛委員提到保駕金比如說我的利率在往上升的時候其實坦白講這個時候是對消費者是比較不利的但是利率往下降是對保險公司比較不利的未來把它改成中性以後其上就是未來大家都不用承擔"},{"start":748.471,"end":767.639,"text":"這個利率上的風險包括客戶也不需要承擔就是有時候利率往下降的時候那可能費用或是保額或是其他的方式會做調整但是現在利率往上升的時候你就要有利於消費者的方向我想這是一個公平的機制所以說 金管會應該站在一個公平正義客觀的角度上來要求好不好當然當然是謝謝"},{"start":774.134,"end":777.306,"text":"謝謝林德福委員 主委請回我們現在接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6ea4fb8bf78004014c7cefddca96be500ab4060e56b945967ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:13:59 - 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{"start":0.589,"end":28.892,"text":"好 接下来我们请郑天才委员请做询答 谢谢好 主席 有请次长我们请次长委员好好 次长好"},{"start":29.898,"end":50.463,"text":"今天我们审查的是动物保护法以农业部所主管的法律除了这个动物保护法跟动物有关的还有另外一个法野生动物保育法所以这两个法律当然"},{"start":51.71,"end":70.667,"text":"就动物的定义来讲这个动物保护法它的立法的目的以及相关的这些动物的定义它都有一个很明确的定义所以跟这个"},{"start":72.186,"end":98.129,"text":"野生动物保育法的立法的目的以及它的对所谓的野生动物都有非常明确不同的这些定义所以今天的有一些提案所以农业部应该要做比较我刚讲的那个"},{"start":100.459,"end":124.899,"text":"兩個不同的法例兩個不同的定義所以他的立法的目的也不同所以應該要針對怎麼樣不要互相跨過去這個部分要還是要說明清楚因為我看你們的報告裡面並沒有把它做一個說明清楚所以也許提案的委員就"},{"start":125.627,"end":152.045,"text":"就不是很清楚所以这个部分也要请农业部来做比较妥善的说明当然很多这个提案到时候也会逐条讨论逐条讨论的时候到时候也要请做比较明确的说明接下来因为现在昨天立法院通过了这个"},{"start":154.71,"end":179.807,"text":"馬灘西燕社福災禍重建的特別預算跟農業部有關的花蓮光復還有鳳林還有望龍他們都很期待農業部有關農業的部分能夠有更多的協助"},{"start":181.294,"end":182.618,"text":"但是我们看这个"},{"start":184.159,"end":212.675,"text":"房屋周边的这些土石堆积如山都还堆积在这边这个乡亲就觉得说已经两个多月了怎么会还这些土石这个都是农田农田跟农田都是跟农业部有关系所以这个部分可能要请次长再交代这个"},{"start":213.693,"end":226.081,"text":"你們相關的數負責的數你看這個鄉親都覺得奇怪怎麼會放那麼久次長你有所了解嗎"},{"start":227.199,"end":254.587,"text":"好謝謝委員關心特別剛剛第一個先破題了就是說其實動物保護法的修訂跟野生動物保育法其實這當中的有一些因為其實立法的緣由跟作用其實不一樣所以謝謝委員先提醒在我們接下來修法或討論其實應該要有這個把這個事情這個呈現出來這謝謝委員的提醒那就馬太那邊其實花蓮這次我只能講說其實災害來得很快但是復原其實"},{"start":255.507,"end":273.405,"text":"相对的慢那我也可以理解我们花莲乡亲的心理的交集那所以就农业部的问题我们现在大概是两个部分第一个是在就上头的这个艳色屋或是在一些那个生态保育这块其实我们持续在做但是就农田的部分"},{"start":274.085,"end":293.015,"text":"農庭的部分就50公分以下馬上可以開始做的部分在我們花改場那邊已經開始在做協助那這邊看起來是相對堆的比較高的這些還有土砂淹在那邊現在看起來是大概只先把這個人進出的路先先拓了但是旁邊那些還有很多在那邊還要再處理那這個牽扯到很多"},{"start":294.059,"end":320.652,"text":"包括這些土砂的移除雖然我們的實驗室已經去測試過那些山上留下來的土砂其實是沒有重金屬污染的但是只有淹在50就是累積50公分以下的是馬上可以開始我們翻耕可以開始耕作這塊我們會先來做謝謝委員關心這個一直留著這個主要是在佛祖街那個區塊"},{"start":322.435,"end":346.578,"text":"它其實房屋旁邊都是農田本來都是農田所以這個部分是不是請你們負責的部門我們去看一下趕快要把它挖走把它帶走因為這個農田的部分當然比較淺的當然我們鄉親自己他們會去處理但是還是要協助像這個"},{"start":349.945,"end":364.231,"text":"農業部對於這個農業復建這個部分農地的垃圾的清潤農地土砂的處理這個是你們主管的這個你們怎麼樣在"},{"start":365.39,"end":380.377,"text":"跟那個環境部環境部跟農業部怎麼樣去共同的去處理我也質詢過農業那個環境部他就說是你們的我查了之後確實還是"},{"start":382.058,"end":405.764,"text":"這個整個農田水利署要去負責這個部分那之前我們會認為說是不是因為沒有經費那現在特別預算已經通過了就請這個農田水利署能夠積極的來處理好 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這位選手已經是在我們裡面培養的選手了培養了一個位高情侶啊我現在跟你說的就是說你跟我說成這樣 好啊 我們都給他培養了他一個位高情侶啊"},{"start":317.96,"end":344.292,"text":"當然 提供教練費用跟那個我和你討論當中實在是個案實在是沒意思啦我意思是說 他參...他在阿州第四名的 十六啦差三名的 差不多你沒第四名要怎麼有冠軍的要有金牌的你沒給他一個機會沒給他特殊 最多你就要..."},{"start":346.705,"end":374.131,"text":"臨岸看台你跟丹香協會之間有時候要構思這個規程就要有意思是甚麼沒錯你的看法是要怎麼我們制定一個辦法只能有一個辦法可是往往會有一些個案你說要變款我跟一個案件請教你你知不知道台南市並沒有一個標準的比賽用地你知不知道我不知道你不知道"},{"start":375.37,"end":385.779,"text":"你讓台南市去羈絆轉中文的時候,你這個先生把你請出說要來羈絆轉中文,你給他問你什麼中文,你就沒有標準的中文,就變成愛去歌詠比賽。台南市羈絆轉中文,結果郵運愛去歌詠比賽。"},{"start":395.083,"end":404.15,"text":"我們會針對全國的運動設施做一個盤整並不是每一個縣市都一定要有國際級的比賽設施因為我們台灣受不了這個樣子"},{"start":413.507,"end":433.032,"text":"你現在讓他 你准他承辦嘛 譬如說台東今天來給你承辦 你准他承辦總是你各單行的比賽的頂點 要不是各個叫合乎全中運的標準感是不是這樣這我了解 這我了解他都沒有 你是不是要輔導他 要幫忙他 不然你就跟他說你不要這麼煩"},{"start":439.874,"end":461.8,"text":"給別人搬 你要有標準的不然我們選擇大家 年輕兩年在旁邊的時候 這事情不一定的這種需要大投資的國際型的設施我們都是希望用區域的方式來辦理這個不需要大投資 我跟你說這是不需要大投資你如果說要大投資利用區域甚至用全台灣也沒關係"},{"start":463.6,"end":489.137,"text":"我都可以同意啊 對不對問題不是這樣 你們不要只看大不看小啦不會的東西就是要專門心思啦我所謂的 你說的說 要平衡嘛平衡 包括戰爭 包括南陸 包括挪威都要平衡嘛那麼當地的規範 當地的使用譬如說這個戰爭運動啦"},{"start":491.909,"end":510.341,"text":"您所有的中台設計 跟中台的規範在演繹的時候 您有請殊勇者 真正的尊重的運動員來演繹嗎我必須要承認 目前還沒有到位這是我們要繼續努力的地方這就是說 有人說我們 用我們正常人你如果卡上手我們在看 那個比較有問題的財運就感覺這一步就很困難了沒錯 沒錯"},{"start":514.404,"end":528.755,"text":"所以這個平衡要不斷落實 要落實的過程中本身跟你建議就是請董事他們很勇敢 願意走出來又參與運動 又展現主義這對我們來說 因為我們知道他要參加不是他願意的 他天生他無奈啊他出事就這樣啊然後他還可以結構 奮鬥 劣質"},{"start":542.749,"end":553.496,"text":"這坦白說,對於我們每一個人,都是很高的個數嘛!你不讓他們參與,再讓我們開那些錢,設計出來當地,運氣到現場,一生就漏氣了!比比皆是,太多了!那來,既然你成立運動部,要針對這個病患來改善,給他們多錢!我是認為,這是一個有心跟沒心啦!"},{"start":568.994,"end":595.381,"text":"做得到嗎我會努力去做努力去做 做得到好不好努力做做得到我盡我的全力用我的生命來跟你換這不是很困難委員我跟您保證這不是說有什麼做客機我們沒有客機我們會盡我們的全力去做這只要有心就做得到我也認同這樣所以我會用心去把它做你有心嗎我一定有這樣的心情好 感謝你謝謝委員"},{"start":599.241,"end":599.746,"text":"謝謝信仰界委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166075","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166075","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6595c398d2cbc2fcdd25403dec583eac6ab4060e56b945967555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:22:48 - 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謝謝主席那先有請副秘書長謝謝副秘書長"},{"start":24.946,"end":54.41,"text":"好 副秘書長早安我想今天早上應該大家都會關心一個新聞我想你應該有看到就是關於這個電鍋的案件那目前呢這個判決結果已經出爐那確實呢判決結果一致來說好像滿符合國人的期待尤其是當時今天現場也在場羅志強委員甚至喊出希望總統可以特赦我可不可以就這個案例請司法院這邊說一說你們的立場還有您個人對於這個判決結果怎麼看"},{"start":58.131,"end":81.823,"text":"這個案件它是個案就是說當然我們尊重法官審判職權的行使但是它還是有涉及一個共通的問題就是說在我們目前那個法制那個貪污治罪條例它有關於就是說貪污的事件裡面有關於小額的這個部分就像這個就只有很輕微那個財務部分的貪污"},{"start":82.483,"end":99.759,"text":"就是就現行法這個的處分法定刑是不是太過了那我想這個部分是那個法務部那個職權那我們知道說法務部其實他們也都有那個修正草案就是也都有去注意這個事情那也有修正草案提報那個行政院審查"},{"start":100.868,"end":128.259,"text":"那就這個個案呢 我想這個法官他完全是在法律的規定跟他的那個職權底下就是去用了四次的減刑一個是那個偵查中的自白那還有就是說這一個情節輕微還有自首然後再用了一個59條就是其情可憫就是減了四次所以說宣告刑是那個三個月緩刑那個兩年"},{"start":129.642,"end":152.815,"text":"以上好 你剛剛講得非常清楚四次減刑這件事情其實在相關新聞報導裡面並沒有看到大家只看到如同你剛剛說的它有相關緩刑然後確實這個法官也做出符合大家對於這個案例想像的懲處但是回到特赦這件事情或是回到法務部這邊可不可以請法務部回到法務部關於修法的部分我們也想知道相關進度 謝謝"},{"start":157.302,"end":184.063,"text":"謝謝委員那的確這個個案的確是情形法重其實是檢察官在偵查中也在起訴書以及在我們公訴力挺的時候都有跟法官來求情來求情因為這的確情形法重那這部分法院的一個判決那我想也是我們尊重法院判決這也是合乎我們最原始最大的一個期待那當然情形法重我們在法制面我們已經提出那個"},{"start":184.904,"end":196.042,"text":"貪污秩序條例的十二條的修正查案因為他那個貪污所得在五萬年以下這部分的而且請解清違這部分我們本來現在現行法是簡訊提醒我們要多一個"},{"start":197.515,"end":215.421,"text":"那個免除期刑的一個選項那我想這個可以讓法官以及檢察在一個處理這邊有更大的一個裁量的一個空間目前這個修法已經送出行政院了嗎目前行政已經已經審訊了那我們希望能夠近期內能夠送立法院經過院會同意經過立法院來審議 送立法院審議"},{"start":218.582,"end":232.418,"text":"這個部分聽起來不管是司法院這邊或是法務部這邊確實都回應了大家對於這個案例的想像跟期待非常謝謝你們的努力而且我們也聽到不管是檢察官或者是法官都在國人的這個期待跟想像之下做出一個大家覺得還"},{"start":233.379,"end":248.149,"text":"可以接受的判決可是我認為最後的困境是回到免除期刑這個修法是不是國人可以理解跟可以接受的因為我們可以看到過去這一年多以來在立法院裡頭有非常多相關訴訟的修法其實是把罪行"},{"start":248.709,"end":252.711,"text":"跟這個處罰年限不斷往上升不斷的往上升好像也想要符合國人對於所謂的懲罰壞人的一種想像所以當我們不斷把刑期往上加往上加的時候可是看到這個案例大家又覺得要特赦要特赦我認為這件事情在做社會溝通不管是往上加對於所謂的處罰壞人或者是往下去爭取特赦或者是如何協助不管是檢察官或者是法官"},{"start":274.46,"end":301.118,"text":"在面對這種案件的時候他們到底那個分寸跟尺度我認為透過今天的溝通可能只是一個開始後續 我後續認為不管是所謂的免除期刑或者是我們在遇到懲罰壞人相關懲處的這個比例要往上調升的時候我都認為應該要像這樣的討論而不是認為只要為了處罰壞人我們就可以不斷的往上加往上加往上加甚至引進所謂的酷刑這件事情我認為是大大不可取"},{"start":301.718,"end":319.685,"text":"所以非常感謝兩位在這個議題的回答我們就先到這邊謝謝那我接下來還是要請兩位留步我們要討論今天關於特留份的事情我知道你們這個回應民間連署的需求然後相關的修法也已經啟動那目前你們的說法是說關於兄弟姐妹特留份的議題呢其實"},{"start":320.965,"end":343.284,"text":"一個是要取法制國內外的案例或者是國內外的修法進度我看到你們的報告裡面提到了日本提到了韓國提到了不同國家目前我們看到你們說在2025年4月也已經啟動了相關的學者研究我想知道一下因為是在4月委託學者專家可是這個連署的時間其實是比較後面"},{"start":344.225,"end":358.47,"text":"但是我又看到你們的報告說你們有納入所謂兄弟姊妹特留份這個部分所以我想要知道如果年底相關報告出爐那部長您說明年初啟動修法目前你們有沒有規劃相關修法的進度在明年的這個時候的確是我們今年四月份有把這個兄弟姊妹的這些的"},{"start":365.683,"end":385.597,"text":"因為委託研究案有把兄弟姊妹的特留份這個議題有放進去有放進去了那端倪這個特留份的這個制度因為事實上有很多的不同的意見那12月底這個委託研究就會出來了那出來我想我們會按照這個委託研究做一個修法的一個綜合的一個參考"},{"start":386.397,"end":395.801,"text":"那這部分因為這個研究還沒有出來那我們想這個是社會很關注那我們會明年啟動修法的這些的程序"},{"start":396.328,"end":423.646,"text":"好意思就是說因為社會關注度很高因為看到這個連署數就知道而且後續一定會有相關的新聞媒體會持續討論我要問的是持續的修法進度也就是說我希望看到今年12月底研究報告出爐之後法務部這邊可以比較積極的啟動修法進程規劃假設有不同黨的委員在質詢這個議題的時候我們都可以希望聽到比較具體的時間規劃另外一個問題我們查了GRB的網站我們目前沒有看到這份研究報告"},{"start":424.966,"end":443.339,"text":"這個目前研究報告的相關大綱跟方向現在是沒有辦法公開的嗎是 因為還沒有12月底才會提出好 可是大方向什麼也都沒有辦法嗎沒有辦法讓我們看見一個大綱研究大綱或者是說你們當時是怎麼指定 怎麼委託然後大方向內容會是什麼這部分我再給那個好 沒問題 請您來說明"},{"start":446.462,"end":473.497,"text":"好 謝謝委員的垂詢那跟委員報告我們當時為什麼會委託研究有兩大的主要原因第一個原因是日本的民法繼承制度有重大的變革那我們想要很精準的深入的了解日本制度變革的情況那第二個原因呢是因為我們105年有個修正草案但是因為各界的問題意見很多那所以沒有完成立法那各界的問題裡面呢當然包含特留份制度的檢討"},{"start":474.597,"end":494.318,"text":"所以呢我們在做委託研究的時候就把這兩大的主要原因都納入委託研究的範圍好聽起來很清楚而且確實如同您所說的不管是因為日本立法例的調整或者是105年的修正草案大家方向沒有辦法收攏沒有辦法一致所以回過來看您應該可以回答我下面一個問題喔"},{"start":495.259,"end":511.895,"text":"目前我們辦公室研究完也發現如果只是單條的修法刪除所謂兄弟姐妹特留份或者是降低他們的比例這個可能是之前大家都討論過的但是有沒有可能這個特留份的制度在所謂保障遺族跟保障被繼承人財產處分權之間的這個拔河的關係我認為可能在相關研究報告裡面應該也是要去解決的再看下一張"},{"start":519.182,"end":539.318,"text":"那另外呢關於1223條兄弟姐妹特留犯我看到非常多委員都有提出版本我們辦公室還沒有提出主要的原因就是因為我們發現如果只有修單條可能會有其他的法律漏洞所以我也很開心看到你們在今天的報告裡面有提到你們關於所謂民法計程編裡面都會去廣泛的修法跟討論而不會單修這一條對不對"},{"start":544.403,"end":561.88,"text":"是因為民法繼承篇分為三大章節總共條次有88條之多我們105年修正的時候就是全盤的檢討提出了三十幾條的修正條文我們明年初啟動修法的內涵其實要包含學者專家的委託研究意見"},{"start":562.501,"end":589.702,"text":"而且包含各界的現在還有各位委員的意見然後還要再把105年的草案呢到底合不合宜以現今的制度來看適不適合我們會做整體全面性的評估檢討沒錯就像我們現在投影片我們看到1138條如果只是把兄弟姊妹拔掉其實後續的祖父母他作為繼續繼承人這個地位是不是有合理性或者是呢如果兄弟姊妹沒有特留沒有特留份可是"},{"start":590.643,"end":617.873,"text":"祖父母的部分卻可以主張特留份可能會造成更多爭議所以我很開心看見你們的報告裡面其實有想到所有關於繼承邊都要一併考慮我們也希望我還是要再次拜託法務部在相關修法進度上我們要更加積極給國人一個可以想像的期程跟空間因為我相信這個議題在法院相關實務的判決剛剛副秘書長你在做口頭報告的時候你有提出來"},{"start":618.453,"end":639.641,"text":"其實很多人對於這個版本的民法的寫法其實大家是有很多意見那不管是顧及所謂的親屬之間的感情跟關係或者是實務上發生了什麼困境我都認為一併討慮跟考論才是最適宜的做法所以非常期待看到後續法務部積極的修法進度好嗎好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6f07e9943637cff8a4cd0246cdf0bd28bab4060e56b94596781d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:15:11 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楊瓊英發言本院委員楊瓊英 羅廷偉 洪孟凱等21人鑒於惡意傷害動物致死傷之事件屢見不宣引起了社會的公憤實際上因為"},{"start":22.652,"end":37.325,"text":"傷動物的案件之判定標準非常的嚴苛致使許多明顯有虐待動物的事實之情況呢卻沒有辦法依照動物保護法來懲處時有修法之必要所以本席提案並刪除動物虛為"},{"start":41.008,"end":67.583,"text":"複數之前提 複數之前提那增加暴力或施以其他凌虐方式致動物死亡情節重大者也因應相關的這個法則來論處以減緩虐待動物事件的發生那落實動物權益的一個維護所以我們凝聚了動物保護法第25條及25條之一的條文修正草案主要的重點在於在我們第25條之一"},{"start":69.384,"end":89.031,"text":"的這個第一項裡頭暴力或施以其他凝略方式我們用如此來修正因為原先的條文是致複數動物死亡情節重大者所以我們認為在整個動物保護法的目的就是要真正要保護動物"},{"start":89.911,"end":117.899,"text":"不被凌虐不再傷害而不是因為必須要有複數以上不以數量而是以實際的行動那也敬請行政部門以及各位同仁大家來支持 謝謝好 謝謝現在我們請農業部杜文貞市長就委員提案進行報告 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6c56ff0161a34397c4cd0246cdf0bd28bab4060e56b945967d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:20:37 - 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:20:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:30:37+08:00","duration":600,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.759093750000002,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.47534375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.610343750000002,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.90596875,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.23659375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.90659375,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.62346875,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.44596875000002,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.33909375000002,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.26284375,"end":176.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.48034375,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.37846875000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.28534375,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.11534375000002,"end":191.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.16159375,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.30909375000002,"end":201.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.72971875000002,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.26909375000002,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.25534375,"end":211.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.54221875000002,"end":246.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.06409375,"end":334.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.94909375000003,"end":363.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.94034375,"end":407.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.59159375,"end":417.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.92346875000004,"end":417.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.97409375,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.05846875000003,"end":438.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.24096875000004,"end":461.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.97596875000005,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.71846875000006,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.35909375000006,"end":510.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.58409375,"end":523.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.2022187499999,"end":531.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.7622187500001,"end":540.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.84096875,"end":544.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.59971875,"end":549.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.9197187500001,"end":551.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.7253437500001,"end":561.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.1415937500001,"end":564.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.17471875,"end":566.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.1028437500001,"end":567.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.67221875,"end":574.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.71346875,"end":575.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.7890937500001,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.97471875,"end":596.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.9109687499999,"end":579.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.94721875,"end":591.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.93784375,"end":596.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.3003437500001,"end":599.4140937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.55,"end":10.743,"text":"那因為今天呢登記的委員非常多所以我們的時間掌控 謝謝好 有請次長我們請次長"},{"start":18.39,"end":42.21,"text":"委員好好 市長我們讓動保執行更有力動保法的修法要盡痛苦也要補人手好 我針對本席今天的提案我們來看這個山豬吊直至今日獵人能繼續再放山豬吊你看那邊我嘗試的去放上幾張比較不殘忍的圖"},{"start":44.251,"end":64.113,"text":"這樣的山豬吊不論是流浪犬或家犬都可能是活在隨時斷腿的風險中它不是只針對保育動物而已那捕獸甲的氾濫經常也造成無辜的動物受傷除非及時的搶救佛陀他們百分百會落得劫之的下場"},{"start":65.214,"end":83.536,"text":"那所以呢本席的提案是全面禁止陷阱納入網路平台的責任以及徵定刑責這邊有事項第一個全面禁止使用製造販賣自由廣告教學輸出入這個補售假與刪除掉本席的修法重點"},{"start":83.936,"end":103.59,"text":"二是增列了電極項圈為禁止項目品第三增列入網路交易的責任要求移除或限制違法的網頁內容第四個增訂五年內如果故意在犯者處兩年以下的有期徒刑這是本席跟21個委員共同的一個訴求"},{"start":107.052,"end":123.591,"text":"這是目前所有的修法版本中唯一將持有販賣販售廣告教學納入禁止範圍的版本本息針對陷阱氾濫導致的犬貓食腐草蕭等保育動物的誤傷提出具體的修法"},{"start":124.311,"end":141.477,"text":"這樣的修法不是新增條文而是希望不要再讓動物被慢慢的痛死這樣這條的修法不只是保護動物更是檢視政府是否能夠真正落實生命尊嚴次長您怎麼看本席的修法呢"},{"start":142.484,"end":164.562,"text":"首先还是要谢谢委员,因为第一个是考量到现场的执行量,刚刚委员在第一章的时候就有提到,因为其实各县市在处理动保业务确实是压力很大,但是其实我们所有的作为的前提是保护动物,所以谢谢委员提出来,就是禁止这个售价现在已经禁止,我相信委员应该是知道,也禁止制造跟贩卖,制造贩卖都禁止了。"},{"start":164.642,"end":180.729,"text":"那至于我们现在有改良式的列具其实我们是在推广就是说对于这些不小心踏入陷阱的也能够有一定的好 那针对广告教学这个您怎么看呢在三株调"},{"start":181.429,"end":210.13,"text":"是在我们在网路的部分其实我们也跟那个NCC跟术发部这边有在做怎么在网路上面做屏蔽所以你是支持本席的修法我觉得这一次的部分应该要在其实现在在网路上面的一些违规的样态我们在跟术发部跟NCC在谈的就是说所以对本席的修法你是支持还不支持是你要提反对意见还是有条件支持我没有反对意见谢谢委员提出来但是在立法上面怎么做成一致性的执行可行这样子"},{"start":210.45,"end":238.68,"text":"的方式在做好那我們在修法條文在討論吧好再來沒有受益的動保政策形同棄守防疫的最前線在4月的時候本期就提過動保法的修法的關鍵不是條文而是人經過半年後的今天我要很嚴肅的提醒各位這像這場的人力方已經成為國家防線的裂口台中非洲豬瘟的疫情爆發之後地方政府第一時間把責任推給了受益人員"},{"start":239.84,"end":258.396,"text":"這樣的氛圍只會讓更多年輕的獸醫不敢進入公職體系但請問沒有獸醫誰來執行防疫誰來查核屠宰管制檢疫包括誰來落實我們剛修的動保法所以今天本席要講的兩個更根本的問題法要修得對"},{"start":259.016,"end":278.985,"text":"人要補得上好我就舉這幾個報導跟學者之間的提出的呼籲動保法的空轉的原因是公職獸醫師荒在聯合報今年1月的時候就提出了目前有台灣目前有6000位的多名獸醫師但公職獸醫僅佔一成去年2024年全國的公職獸醫師卻35人報考只有10人"},{"start":287.549,"end":303.048,"text":"实际报道的不到五人也就是录取的人数远少于缺额中心大学的受益学院的院长陈德勋陈院长他也提出了1987年的时候毕业升三分之一是进到公部门现在仅剩10%"},{"start":304.269,"end":322.297,"text":"他也就說了這樣下去非洲豬瘟禽流管狂犬病等政策將無人可執行所以法律的條文當然可以寫得漂亮但執行的人已經撐不下去了好我們再來看在上個月這個也有這樣的報導"},{"start":323.277,"end":343.796,"text":"公職獸醫師荒的原因是錢少勢多苗栗縣動保所編制18人其中13位獸醫師一人就要管200萬隻的家禽收容所的工作呢更坦言說一人要負責100隻的犬貓所以呢這個光是洗澡就體力透支了"},{"start":344.457,"end":361.628,"text":"到新竹市的動保所所編制的4位獸醫限職僅兩位要辦理全市的動保防疫醫療三線的任務好在這邊本席具體要求現況盤點跟危機因應請農業部於一個月內提出全國公職獸醫人力盤點報告"},{"start":364.33,"end":386.135,"text":"內容當然包括各縣市的動保署防疫所收容所現有與缺額數這不只是數據而是修法後能否執行的底線我就舉澳洲為例其實他對於受益人力缺口亦有官方報告而且強調需要定期人力資料庫化以支撐政策的這個是目前我們"},{"start":386.795,"end":407.609,"text":"沒有做的那在危機的因應上呢農業部也應該嚴理與民間授意建立開口契約的合作機制公私協力建立短期調派的彈性機制我就舉這兩個國家美國舊金山政府與民間簽訂的授意簽訂的這樣的一個框架契約英國警政"},{"start":409.191,"end":423.523,"text":"機關也採用這種框架契約聘用這個獸醫來處理緊急事件那次長你怎麼看這兩個要求呢謝謝委員提出非常正確也非常需要是我們需要的那在獸醫人力盤點的部分"},{"start":423.983,"end":446.73,"text":"在第52次的中央災害面中心非洲中央災害面中心已经请各县市提出来因为我们也看到确实人力不够那在有动物疫病发生的时候其实是不够的所以其实已经有这个请各县市提出来这是第一点那第二点也谢谢委员提出来公司协力确实是重要有些不见得需要受益做的其实可以引进民间人力第二个像上次我们在处理牛结结诊的时候"},{"start":447.19,"end":464.538,"text":"其實不只私人受醫 退休受醫還有學校的老師都帶受醫系的學生出來幫忙打牛接種疫苗所以我們願意用這樣子的方式其實讓受醫人力更多但是重點還是各縣市缺乏公職受醫這是事實我們未來盤點那就希望您在這個報告當中也寫出你的解方"},{"start":465.458,"end":493.258,"text":"好那在這邊本席要求的是農業部推動這兩件事情確保縣警全面禁用網路平台負起責任第二個用開口氣月來補助現場的人力動物的痛苦不該被緩慢等待的行政程序延長執法人員的疲勞也不該被制度默許所以今天本席的兩大重點動保法修法因同時禁痛苦的縣警這是對動物的尊重也補上"},{"start":493.738,"end":509.588,"text":"缺席的人力但站在第一線半夜還在消毒抓狗救鳥的人力得以永續那本席另外要提一點就是次長你很清楚我長期在推動物的這個尤其是寵物的公益雪庫"},{"start":510.689,"end":540.312,"text":"那我對農業部是非常非常的不滿意我覺得你們是新任的部長每次都有新的我個人都有新的期待但是每每期待我都是落空因為你們真的是只是在做每一個部長都是在做救急的工作都沒有一個開展性沒有一個前瞻性這個你們都說口口聲聲都這麼保護動物也有寵物寵物的一個專門的一個單位了"},{"start":540.892,"end":551.221,"text":"你們對於他的醫療有沒有重視 沒有啊那你們的動物醫療當中需不需要學啊次長你回答一下 要不要學"},{"start":552.332,"end":574.985,"text":"謝謝委員 這件事情確實是在現場職業受益師確實有這樣子的需要那我們也才朝這個方向去做因為在調度血液的時候確實你覺得你這樣進度滿意嗎 從本席提出到現在目前平台已經建立了你自己打幾分啊 次長沒有啦 我們剛剛給你拍完手啦但是平台有建立而且我們屏東科技大學的醫療醫院我給你打30分啦"},{"start":575.865,"end":596.255,"text":"政府當然只有30分啊20 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我們來有請部長 副秘書長有請部長 副秘書長委員早兩位早國人對於詐騙深惡痛絕我想最簡單的一個基本的觀念洩漏偵查中一秘密的文書是不是違法 部長"},{"start":31.871,"end":54.363,"text":"呃 這個委員 這個簡報有寫了對 他是不是違法呃 我想這個是不是洩漏偵查中的秘密文書我想這個如果有的話 那個檢察官會如果依照告訴高發貨職務直系 我想會立案來處理OK 好 非常好喔但問題是啦 大家現在看不懂啦我們的政府說要打詐"},{"start":56.216,"end":85.071,"text":"結果檢察官是不是有鼓勵他的男朋友參與詐騙集團這是另外一回事但是針對在詐騙中偵查的案件利用檢察官內部查詢的系統去查相關偵查中隱秘密的文書這件事情去年6月11號媒體報導了以後陶檢說沒有影響偵查也沒有影響"},{"start":87.042,"end":100.168,"text":"也沒有涉及妨礙秘密但問題來了我上一次質詢過了以後我看到這個新聞稿我有點沒辦法相信我去年6月12號質詢結果桃園地檢署發了一個新聞稿說什麼說呢"},{"start":105.786,"end":131.002,"text":"這位檢察官有沒有涉及刑事不法他們在去年6月12號已經另外分案偵辦一定會秉公處理 嚴正執法 絕不護短秉公處理 嚴正執法 絕不護短結果呢 結果沒想到啊所謂的秉公處理 嚴正執法 絕不護短今年年初啊 偷偷簽結了"},{"start":133.217,"end":152.357,"text":"今年年初偷偷簽結了自己內部簽結了社會大眾通通都不知道等到什麼等到檢察官評鑑委員會進行評鑑的時候有四位評鑑委員直接在協同意見書裡面講啊"},{"start":154.954,"end":169.89,"text":"說這不是只有移情職務法院處理而已啊這個已經是涉及到刑法132條洩漏國防以外的秘密罪請問桃園地檢署這樣子牽結法務部的立場是什麼"},{"start":172.401,"end":201.101,"text":"法務部的立場認為這位吳雅芝檢察官已經不適合當檢察官所以我們是不是適合當檢察官是職務法庭的事嘛決議及協同意見部分我們就含情這部分我們就是絕對不會負擔絕對不會負擔現在就已經簽結啦主張免除檢察官的職務啦這兩回事啦我們在職務法庭處理他適不適合檢察官這我沒有意見啦"},{"start":202.142,"end":215.302,"text":"我有意見的是什麼桃園地檢署告訴全國人民嚴正執法絕不護短結果偷偷摸摸自己牽結牽結是什麼概念"},{"start":216.747,"end":239.427,"text":"甚至不用讓高檢署看欸偷偷摸摸自己牽結心虛成這個樣子這麼明確在偵查當中告訴代理人就是被害人他提出的書狀利用檢察官的查詢系統查出來提供給詐騙集團的律師可以這樣幹喔這樣沒有違法喔"},{"start":240.458,"end":258.556,"text":"我看不懂了啦我現在已經完全看不懂了這麼明確的違法我們的桃園地檢署竟然簽結我講一句不客氣的根本不僅僅是在官官相護是在包庇自家人犯罪所以我才問部長法務部的立場是什麼"},{"start":263.247,"end":271.817,"text":"這個不管是我們認為吳雅芝的一個行為非常的不妥所以這部分我再重申就是我們認為應該免除檢察官的職務"},{"start":274.326,"end":280.048,"text":"剛剛我們已經講過了嘛 這部分不用討論嘛現在我在處理的是刑事責任的問題嘛這種事情可以牽結喔非常的好 非常的好記得 記得你今天說過的話來 我繼續啊 帶給大家看啊大家問桃園地檢署 你們為什麼牽結啊"},{"start":304.383,"end":315.204,"text":"桃園地檢署完美的示範什麼叫問A答B啊人家問他說你為什麼牽結牽結是刑事訴訟的概念結果他的回答是我們已經送職務法庭了"},{"start":316.226,"end":337.959,"text":"跟院長 跟部長今天回答的方式一模一樣人家問你憑什麼簽結刑事訴訟為什麼簽結他的答案是 我已經送職務法庭了包庇自家人犯罪啊 到這種程度權利在你們手上嘛愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞啊大家拿你們沒皮條啊 沒有關係接下來請司法院"},{"start":341.826,"end":365.058,"text":"行政院院長卓榮泰說買醬油的錢不能拿去買醋司法院認不認同委員這個部分並不是司法院職權這個部分我們他在講的是預算的使用我編錢給你去買醬油不可以拿去買醋司法院認不認同這個牽涉到錢怎麼花"},{"start":366.602,"end":390.767,"text":"這個我們不便回答不會啊那個預算不是你們司法院在執行的嗎我為什麼問你其實我不是要在這邊考這個狀態啦來我帶我接下來帶你看立法院預算中心說什麼司法院歷年的出國計畫都大幅變更你們實際出國的計畫跟依照原計畫的比例低到慘不能讀慘不能讀2023年我講過了別人預算要去法國考察"},{"start":396.727,"end":420.902,"text":"結果跑去捷克 這個我去年就問過了我只是很快帶大家review進一步看裡面的錢從其他的計畫 雲芝114萬這叫做掛羊頭賣狗肉這叫做卓榮泰說拿醬油的錢去買醋這就是卓榮泰在講的事情啦2024年 去年有七位大法官去了比利時 法國 荷蘭"},{"start":423.306,"end":434.255,"text":"結果我看了預算書看了半天沒有去比利時荷蘭的行程啊院長有去法國的行程編在預算書裡這個我肯定去比利時荷蘭的計畫根本沒有啊也是從其他的計畫運資的嗎"},{"start":438.513,"end":464.458,"text":"那個委員這個在去年在去年預算審查的時候已經有那個報告過了就是說我們的那個大法官因為他們身份的關係還有再加上我國在外交上的那個處境所以說有時候做了計畫之後就是本來都已經談好了那但是最後的時候就是沒有辦法那個成行OK好來我帶大家看一下通過預算以後這一次去比利時荷蘭雲芝的134萬雲芝的134萬"},{"start":468.559,"end":482.431,"text":"本來沒有這個計畫項目雲芝的上百萬了以後那我當然就很好奇啊去比利時荷蘭做什麼我看了以後我嚇一大跳請問這是觀光行程嗎"},{"start":483.854,"end":510.262,"text":"我為什麼說這個是觀光行程嗎第一天晚上從桃園搭飛機到阿姆斯特丹阿姆斯特丹我那時候當學者要出國開會的時候常常去啊一落地大概都是天亮的時候結果到阿姆斯特丹以後那不是目的地啊要去比利時要去比利時的布拉索從阿姆斯特丹到布拉索多遠你知道嗎"},{"start":512.725,"end":535.859,"text":"妳應該不知道吧 妳有沒有去過我個人有去過 對所以妳從阿姆斯特丹到布拉索移動要多久我不知道他們是用什麼交通工具我可以跟妳講一下阿姆斯特丹的機場下去坐鐵路到布拉索兩個小時"},{"start":538.973,"end":564.762,"text":"委員這上面有講了他們那一天還有那個就是在收集那個相關的議題是是是請問去荷蘭收入及什麼資料委員因為你今天那個臨時就是準備這個因為我並不是那個就是書記沒有關係啊你們會後提供啊是我只是秀出來給大家看啊結果到了布拉索爾以後吃了一頓飯再休息了一天荷蘭待一天"},{"start":566.4,"end":587.774,"text":"比利時待一天 也都不是目的地最後再從比利時啊 去法國所以我才問嘛 這個是什麼觀光旅遊行程啊到阿姆斯特丹收集資料你騙我沒有去過阿姆斯特丹啊到阿姆斯特丹為什麼喜歡飛阿姆斯特丹"},{"start":588.837,"end":609.87,"text":"一大早就到 往下到海牙 往左邊到布拉索坐電車很方便 就在機場下面 兩個小時就到了但是為了收集整理資料 我們一定要在阿姆斯特丹住一個晚上然後到布拉索以後 再休息一天 再從布拉索跑到巴黎去"},{"start":611.29,"end":626.58,"text":"總共合比訪團11天的行程我寬算6天公務11天的行程6天公務真正去你所謂的重要機構參訪的加起來我也寬算3天這樣的行程司法院"},{"start":627.779,"end":642.178,"text":"反正在網站上都有啦只是沒有什麼人去看啊司法院有什麼說辭司法院自己去講但是我回來看了你們的報告我看了真的是大驚失色啊台灣人均的GDP依照IMF有72485美元這個報告是誰寫的"},{"start":650.013,"end":678.39,"text":"這個是司法院113年度赴比利時法國荷蘭考察報告上面從院長許忠麗到院長是主任陳惠美中間有一堆大法官我看了這個報告以後我腦袋第一個問題是這個報告誰寫的台灣什麼時候人均GDP有72485美元INF排名第12名真的嗎這個報告誰寫的好沒關係你回去查一下"},{"start":679.608,"end":697.925,"text":"因為他沒有掛名嘛 到底是誰寫的我想院長應該不會寫這種報告啦那到底是誰寫的是真的去的人寫的嗎還是回來找一個職員寫的因為我看了這個數字了以後我覺得很奇怪台灣的人均GDP有72485有嗎"},{"start":702.421,"end":728.104,"text":"委員要報告是其實這一次去那個出訪有達成很大的司法跟外交上的那個成就沒關係這個我等一下再問這個我等一下再問INF你們贏的是2023年台灣人均GDP我很慎重的到INF上面的官網去查這個就是你們Citation嘛資料的來源嘛是32340"},{"start":730.55,"end":758.346,"text":"這是IMF的網站上面 官網不用去阿姆斯特丹就知道了然後這個是你們的出國報告然後你說達成很大的效益 來報告建議採納情形我有框起來嗎你有沒有看到說報告有建議事項有四個項目然後以採行項目有兩個項目這個是司法院送出來的決算書這個數字你有看到嗎"},{"start":762.311,"end":786.531,"text":"對對對 是是是但我跟秘書長說明一下整份報告我拜讀了整份報告我拜讀我完全沒有看到上面有什麼建議內容建議內容是零所以我很看你們寫這個決算書出來我看了非常的驚訝我在報告裡面看不到的東西結果在上面有四個建議事項"},{"start":787.697,"end":816.119,"text":"然後還可以說有兩個已經採行了我完全看不懂我也看不到沒有關係時間的關係請司法院會後請司法院會後書面回覆在報告的什麼地方建議了哪四個事項又有哪兩個事項是已經採行可以嗎可以需要多久兩天夠嗎這個這很簡單啦就把就把這份報告拿出來然後說在第幾頁有幾個建議事項"},{"start":818.648,"end":825.808,"text":"這四個建議事項是哪四個建議事項有哪兩個彩形需要多久委員那個一週可以嗎好可以我給你一個禮拜好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166065","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166065","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6136e21cc37f9add5a7506bc9aa821225ab4060e56b945967a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:07:29 - 09:09:46","影片長度":"00:02:17","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)民進黨黨團擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員林月琴等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(五)委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員許宇甄等23人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(八)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(九)委員林楚茵等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十)委員劉建國等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十一)委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十二)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十三)委員李坤城等21人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十四)委員王正旭等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十五)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十六)委員羅智強等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十七)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等25人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案」案。\n(十九)委員黃捷等16人擬具「外送員權益保障暨外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二十)委員劉建國等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n【二、(十六)至(十八)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(十九)及(二十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:07:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:09:46+08:00","duration":137,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.86659375,"end":30.456593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.047843750000002,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.473468750000002,"end":134.28846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.693,"end":23.209,"text":"主席大家好因為我是教育文化委員會的委員所以待會我還有教文的質詢那我先來這邊針對我的提案做說明那第一個我想現在是9點鐘不知道為什麼未還委員只有我們民進黨的委員在場那除了主席之外其他那麼關心的委員只是說主席知道他們到哪去了嗎"},{"start":25.962,"end":47.54,"text":"我們尊重每個委員 因為實質審查是下午每一條 等一下是先宣讀這樣子好 我了解了 所以希望下午他們都能夠一起出現我想講的是 2020年外送員還在籌組公會的時候我當時就跟勞工陣線還有外送員夥伴一起召開記者會爭取專法我也透過質詢公聽會要求"},{"start":50.202,"end":65.85,"text":"當時的勞動部跟交通部重視外送員的職業安全跟工作風險那這幾年我爭取到薪資透明指引機車外送安全指引等來對抗演算法的減薪還有颱風天外送的問題"},{"start":66.75,"end":90.371,"text":"但是我們也看到光是指引是不夠的因為外送平台在台灣落地深耕超過10年人數從4.5萬人很快就到現在的15萬人新的勞動型態沒有辦法靠平台自律過去我們以為外送員可以自己調度工作時間但是平台會要求外送員有一定的接單率讓他們不敢拒絕接單"},{"start":91.172,"end":117.546,"text":"那或者是用獎勵變相就是次數的獎勵變相誘導他拉長工時導致他們面臨交通安全的風險等所以就如同我之前說的我們的專法必須要能夠像現在國際上很多的討論在他同時保有彈性的情況下也能夠擁有安全達到所謂的Flexibility就是有Flexibility跟Security"},{"start":118.146,"end":133.347,"text":"那例如瑞士是直接把外送員納入傳統的勞工保障德國則有中間勞動者的類型提供一定程度的保障那希望我們這次可以共創一個薪資透明勞動公平安全的外送員工作環境跟產業謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6ad494698fe66b087a7506bc9aa821225ab4060e56b945967ea2fa0b0c1a4ccb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:05:17 - 09:07:23","影片長度":"00:02:06","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)民進黨黨團擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員林月琴等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(五)委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員許宇甄等23人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(八)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(九)委員林楚茵等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十)委員劉建國等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十一)委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十二)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十三)委員李坤城等21人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十四)委員王正旭等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十五)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十六)委員羅智強等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十七)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等25人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案」案。\n(十九)委員黃捷等16人擬具「外送員權益保障暨外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二十)委員劉建國等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n【二、(十六)至(十八)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(十九)及(二十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:05:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:07:23+08:00","duration":126,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.966593750000001,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.10409375,"end":25.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.085968750000003,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.39534375000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.55471875,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":121.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.92721875000001,"end":126.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.331,"end":23.414,"text":"各位委員關心外送專法的夥伴 大家好在台灣外送服務已經成為民眾生活的一部分從業人員更超過14萬人放眼國際法律納管已經事實上成趨勢近年平台的爭議頻傳所以我認為台灣"},{"start":26.215,"end":51.087,"text":"外送專法的推動勢在必行那我的版本呢希望能夠具體回應這項新興經濟模式帶來挑戰期待透過專法建立一個公平安全透明且四方互惠的產業環境重點有三第一保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益明定契約範本及透明化的一個報酬的結構針對爭議事件違規停權"},{"start":55.029,"end":70.064,"text":"中止契約或其他不利決定建立申訴救濟機制公開揭示與處理並禁止延伸之不利對待第二強化安全措施跟教育訓練民定職業安全食品安全"},{"start":71.431,"end":87.337,"text":"交通安全等無收費的教育訓練課程以及回訓制度跟時數並得免重複實施此外 針對外送員發生重大交通違規或造勢時業者應有通知與協助完成"},{"start":87.897,"end":105.297,"text":"道安講習之義務三兼顧職業安全保障跟彈性民定平台應付的適度的一個社會保險包括商業保險跟勞工職災保險的投保跟費用負擔的義務同時民定"},{"start":106.383,"end":121.268,"text":"明文要求平台不得對於聚單或離線休息者不利對待最後我很期待本法的通過為外送產業帶來更穩健更人性的發展懇請各位委員支持我的修正版本謝謝謝謝林月琴委員說明"}]}},{"id":"166063","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166063","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6408894aaa9e35fc64cd0246cdf0bd28bab4060e56b9459673dd907335e0676765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:06:21 - 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:06:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:11:48+08:00","duration":327,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.80346875,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.67471875000001,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.91034375000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.17971875,"end":105.71909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.56284375000001,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.43409375000002,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.43284375000002,"end":219.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.67596875,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.19534375,"end":296.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.30096875000004,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.88284375,"end":327.13596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.868,"end":27.97,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天特別排這個就是修法的審查那非常的高興因為我想在動保法的部分其實我也提出了非常多的一些版本我想近年來大家對於所謂的動物保護的一個重視那還有期待其實也是與日俱增但是現行我們的這個動保法的相關的一些法令"},{"start":28.71,"end":51.156,"text":"或者是規範在這個刑度跟罰則的部分其實還是有明顯的不足跟社會的期待其實是有落差的那也沒有辦法能夠有效的遏止所謂的惡性虐待的行為跟非法寵物市場的一個持續的擴張那麼為了要回應這個社會強烈的一個要求所以在這個部分我們也希望能夠來補強法律上的一個漏洞"},{"start":51.909,"end":76.657,"text":"那我想我的修法的版本其實有三大重點第一個就是要強化虐待的動物刑責回應重大的社會事件我想近幾年來接連發生多起的一些嚴重的虐殺動物的這樣子的一個案件那麼包含這個越籍的移工在台灣從事所謂的販賣狗肉那虐殺的動物然後來牟利這樣的案件"},{"start":77.202,"end":105.145,"text":"或者是在南投的成姓男子以假冒動保人事之名多起犯下了殘酷的虐死貓犬的這樣的事件還有這個新北的坪林的山區用利器砍傷這個犬隻的惡性事件甚至在前一陣子這個高雄就是有年輕人他是虐貓同時他是在微波爐還特別PO網那引起了大眾的公憤"},{"start":106.616,"end":132.411,"text":"我想這類的案件其實頻率是越來越高那也對我們的社會善良風俗其實造成非常巨大的一個衝擊那這些往往施暴者都只有付出一點點的代價他其實就可以重返社會其實沒有辦法產生以我們現在的現行的動保法其實沒有辦法產生這個嚇阻的作用甚至也沒有直接的證據所以他們可能就一犯會再犯"},{"start":133.547,"end":155.78,"text":"那這次我的這個修法的版本是把這個虐待動物的志祺重傷以及死亡的一個刑度從現行的2年以下那提高到3年以下那同步的提高的罰金是從30萬到300萬希望能夠提升這個嚇阻率那另外就是針對重大的一個情節者那明定加重奇襲"},{"start":156.779,"end":179.377,"text":"其刑大概二分之一那麼不得一顆罰金那對於所謂有預謀或者是前科再犯或在這個社群網路上公開的直播虐待行為者也更明確的要將其納入所謂的重重處罰的一個對象喔那我想唯有透過這個強化刑度那麼限制一顆罰金提高罰金的一個額度"},{"start":179.83,"end":208.365,"text":"才能夠真正的有效去遏止所謂的惡性虐待的一個行為那第二個重點是在補強這個非法繁殖場跟地下寵物市場的一個執法的缺口現在司繁的問題其實是非常的嚴重那以現行的動保法第25條之2規定這個非法營利的人就是他沒有特寵證他最低的罰則罰款其實也是偏低"},{"start":209.485,"end":235.349,"text":"那麼其實呢嚴重的弱化了這個源頭的管理喔那另外呢在這個第33條之2第3項的規定喔只有規定這個主管機關得發給檢舉獎金那麼導致各地方的執行的標準其實是不一的喔所以這民眾呢他們檢舉這所謂的私販的這樣子的一個案件等於意願也不足那麼也會影響我們查緝的一個效率喔"},{"start":235.734,"end":262.855,"text":"所以在這個地方我特別在修法的重點包含提高非法繁殖跟販售業者最低的罰款那麼讓他不能再用極低的一個成本來從事所謂的非法繁殖這樣的一個暴力的行為那另外從這個檢舉獎金的一個獎勵的一個制度從得改為因來建立這個全國一致的一個執行的標準來提升這個檢舉的誘因"},{"start":264.127,"end":291.941,"text":"那另外第三個就是我一直不斷的在強調就是要強化源頭的管理跟跨縣市查緝的一個效率那使得這個非法的繁殖黑市能夠無所遁形那希望藉此修法能夠打擊這個地下的繁殖場那另外的這個修法的必要性跟期待的效益那我相信這個本次的修法我們是希望第一能夠反映社會對於嚴懲虐待動物的一個主流民意"},{"start":292.571,"end":302.119,"text":"那第二就是要透過加重刑度跟限制醫科罰金來遏止預謀性或者是高殘忍虐度的這樣子的一個犯罪行為"},{"start":303.092,"end":325.724,"text":"第三就是要強化非法繁殖場的一個交易跟查緝的力度第四希望能夠建立一致且明確的檢舉獎金的制度提高全民來參與另外就是在動保法我們希望能夠藉由這次的修法真正具備保護動物跟防止再犯的功能以上報告"}]}},{"id":"166070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6c47186c0b54796bec7cefddca96be500ab4060e56b945967ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:11:13 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09:11:02","影片長度":"00:01:31","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。八、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員李坤城等23人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十一條、第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。【第一案、第十七案至第十九案如經復議則不予審查；第二十案至第二十一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【12月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:09:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:11:02+08:00","duration":91,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-4-15-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.56659375,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.54034375,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.38846875,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.76659375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.04346875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.56596875000001,"end":91.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.425,"end":23.179,"text":"全民打詐 全民防詐這是一條永遠不會停下來的路那所以我今天特別為被害人來對於防詐條例第46、47條來提出這個修正的草案的說明原本的草案裡面是針對詐欺犯罪的行為人的檢刑跟免刑要件"},{"start":23.739,"end":50.204,"text":"只有自首或者是自白并自动缴交犯罪所得并没有对于被害人的赔偿有什么要件所以我提案的内容里面包含第46条的自首的自己去自首的除了要缴交犯罪所得以外更应该要积极赔偿被害人所受的损害并由法院审着其赔偿才可以得到减刑或免刑第47条是针对"},{"start":50.643,"end":70.458,"text":"已經被抓到了他才認罪的必須要全額填補被害人所受的損害或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減刑我們除了要重視自守自白對詐騙的這個偵查以外更應該重視被害人對被害人的權利的賠償"},{"start":72.478,"end":84.968,"text":"詐騙集團就算只是車手也是殘害被害人的一份子要有更積極的作為來補償被害人才可以獲得減刑否則打詐這一條路上永遠會有漏洞謝謝謝謝 我們感謝李博義提案說明我們請黃姐委員提案"}]}},{"id":"166067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6359d4ebf6bcf8dbb4cd0246cdf0bd28bab4060e56b9459676e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:12:01 - 09:15:02","影片長度":"00:03:01","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:12:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:15:02+08:00","duration":181,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":78.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.56284375,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.21909375,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.79659375,"end":178.78784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":28.149,"text":"我們請呂玉玲委員請做提案說明 謝謝謝謝主席 大家好今天動保法的修正草案本席有兩個提案第一個就是動物保護法的第十條有鑒於動物保護議題已經成為國際社會的普世價值國內動物保護的意識已經提升了但是以動物作為交換"},{"start":29.13,"end":45.717,"text":"跟鲙鱼的经济行为已经严重的危害了动物的生命权台湾各地的夜市还有市场园渔会的场域常常有小动物作为付费游戏赠品的惯例像大量的鼠 兔 鱼还有鸟类"},{"start":47.558,"end":70.994,"text":"兩棲類跟爬蟲類等各種的非犬貓動物都被視為是遊戲的贈品隨意的贈與除了現場環境不佳還有遊戲的過程非常的不人道恐造成動物的傷害後續更衍生了飼養不當及棄養的問題同時惡意傷害了動物的致死的事件是時有所聞的也引起了"},{"start":71.334,"end":78.072,"text":"社会的公分现行的动物保护法的第十条第三款虽然有明定对动物不得有"},{"start":79.639,"end":107.677,"text":"有的行为包括是以直接间接赌博或者其他不当的目的而有虐待动物的情势进行动物交换或者是赠予而游戏娱乐难以被列为这个是赌博或不当的目的只有在稽查当下无发现有虐待动物的情况才往往难以落实了动物的保护所以呢提案要修正条文第十条无论是否"},{"start":108.157,"end":135.197,"text":"有虐待动物的情势一律是禁止动物作为正品的行为以增进动物的福祉另外在第25条跟25条之一鉴于动物保护的观念社会兴起了而虐待动物的情势实有所闻纵观其他的世界先进国家对于虐待动物的罚则以美国跟日本为例美国是最高处以7年的监禁日本而"},{"start":135.737,"end":161.397,"text":"是面臨的最高5年的監禁或者是500萬日元的罰款顯見我國現行的罰金跟刑責無法去有效二子類似的事件難以達到動物保護的目的所以要提高刑責罰金的必要另外就是現有的法規定罪的前提是以複數動物死亡為要件所以要刪除此"},{"start":161.857,"end":162.758,"text":"好 謝謝呂委員的提案說明"}]}},{"id":"166066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6a3a4b16a8777b706a7506bc9aa821225ab4060e56b945967a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:10:22 - 09:12:22","影片長度":"00:02:00","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)民進黨黨團擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員林月琴等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(五)委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員許宇甄等23人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(八)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(九)委員林楚茵等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十)委員劉建國等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十一)委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十二)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十三)委員李坤城等21人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十四)委員王正旭等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十五)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十六)委員羅智強等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十七)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等25人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案」案。\n(十九)委員黃捷等16人擬具「外送員權益保障暨外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二十)委員劉建國等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n【二、(十六)至(十八)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(十九)及(二十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:10:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:12:22+08:00","duration":120,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":116.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.33721875,"end":121.17659375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.366,"end":17.65,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁大家早針對日益複雜的外送平台經濟提出了版本"},{"start":18.639,"end":37.857,"text":"這個版本的重點裡面聚焦在兩大面向第一就是要職業安全的強化第二就是演算法的這個透明化跟申訴機制的建立那這些修正的出發點當然是希望在既有的基礎上面進一步完善對外送援勞動權益的保障"},{"start":38.357,"end":59.919,"text":"那第一點在強化職業安全的部分外送員長期處於高道路風險的環境我們必須要強化他的職業安全網第一個相關的就是要派單的安全基準根據現行的這個道路交通安全規則對機車負載物品也有重量跟體積的相關的規範"},{"start":60.86,"end":82.113,"text":"為了避免外送員因要派單超載而被迫違規且由立法明確要求外送平台業者於派單的時候即應明確的運送商品符合道路安全規則等相關法規第二個就是要保障他的離線權第三個就是針對天災停止營業的這些規定也都要非常的明確"},{"start":82.913,"end":111.098,"text":"那第二有關演算法透明化跟紳士的技術方面我們知道數位平台時代外送員權益常受到不透明的這個演算法的影響我們必須要建立一定的揭露機制包括第一個演算法的揭示義務第二個終止契約的申訴小組的成立第三個演算法的舉證責任那我們相信以上這些機制的設計希望可以讓外送服務成為外送員的安心平台"},{"start":111.959,"end":116.786,"text":"業者也得以管理而且能夠保障勞動公平的一個環境以上謝謝王振旭委員說明"}]}},{"id":"166062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6acb8ae3d8c0180e909a18256bf6bdfebab4060e56b945967dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:03:54 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現在所謂新的模式會變成是因為如果是投資要經投審會那麼我們就會有所謂的投資的比例的問題那麼會讓後面的資金現行但是如果用代理"},{"start":238.876,"end":253.263,"text":"找一個空殼的公司用代理的方式他就會規避審查那麼這個可能是一個新型態的樣態我們也就提醒國安局要注意這個部分然後要跟跨部會的包括經濟部或是其他相關甚至於數位部等等來做一個跨部會的這個所謂研議因為假如有涉及到"},{"start":261.089,"end":269.581,"text":"股權結構以外的國安審查部分那本局會發揮我們的功能那因為還沒有目前還沒有收到這個資訊我會來處理另外一個當然本宵特別提到的就是褲棚啦喔這個所謂的美商但是是韓資的褲棚"},{"start":277.532,"end":293.106,"text":"現在就發生了有三千萬帳戶的個資外移那麼過去庫蓬一直強調的是他們的資安管理得非常好但是你知道只要有人裡應外合那就不得了那麼就是有所謂的中國籍的員工在裡面直接把資料帶走那這種"},{"start":294.867,"end":323.826,"text":"真的是內鬼難防所以真的是過去我們一直在質詢台上或是在國內透過媒體一直強調那就是只要是具有中國身份他因為中國的國安法的相關的要求他就必須為國家來進行所謂情搜間諜的任務我想這個例子喔在韓國發生那麼就沒有得說我們今天所謂扣人家的帽子但是現在比較擔憂的是我要帶過來就是如果以目前立法院"},{"start":324.967,"end":351.766,"text":"的這幾個修法的進度中國的國家情報法第七條就規定了他們的公民必須要配合國家來做情搜我相信剛剛我舉出來的這個韓國酷朋的例子應該也就是因為中國籍的人士他沒有放棄他的國籍他即使到韓國去工作了他擁有中國籍他就必須要服膺在中華人民共和國的法律之下那麼如果說現在搭配的組合權是中國籍的配偶6年改4年"},{"start":354.608,"end":372.724,"text":"然後再加上近親通婚再加上如果國籍法的修正擔任公職可以不用放棄中國籍那麼國安局會不會認為說這個完全是讓台灣暴露在中國可以直接大剌剌的把所有的入侵都滲透都合理化"},{"start":373.667,"end":390.428,"text":"這大概分三個部分跟委員做報告啦齁那一個部分是所謂我們的公職人員不能擁有雙重國籍的這部分那從法制面來講以現在的國籍法來講是不容許的所以這部分我們尊重業管機關在法律上的一個詮釋跟立場"},{"start":391.229,"end":414.762,"text":"那第二部分是就制度面來講假如說我們的公職人員擁有雙重國籍的話他很容易產生的一個問題是國家的認同跟中正的混淆那這是制度面的問題第三個部分是我們更關切是國安面的問題也就是說假如公職人員有雙重國籍的話那會不會有中國的法制假如說這公職人員的雙重國籍是包括到原籍在中國的話"},{"start":415.322,"end":439.543,"text":"那會不會有委員提到的因為中國國家法制的問題而讓這位擁有台灣公職人員的這位人士必須要把情職提供給中國大陸所以這個部分是國安角度我們比較擔心的所以就三個面向來講法律的部分我知道貴院正在討論我也不知道修出來的法律會是怎麼樣但即使法律有新的法制的話從國安單位來講我們還是要強調的是從制度面"},{"start":440.223,"end":455.235,"text":"國家認同中正的模糊以及從國安面可能遭到中國法律的約制要提供相關的資訊給中國政府的話這部分我們在國安上是有些疑慮的那也利用這樣的討論提供給大院各位委員做個參考好 我知道如果這樣的法真的擋不了"},{"start":455.655,"end":464.278,"text":"那麼對於國安局來講你們的壓力或者是你們的任務或工作就會更加的沉重因為我認為我們歡迎所有的人成為中華民國的國民那麼成為國民之後想要有同樣的權利但是要有同樣的義務效忠中華民國我相信這個義務是擺在最前面的那麼為了要讓這樣的義務讓每一個國民都一體適用的時候那麼對於還有人要留著中華人民共和國的國籍"},{"start":483.824,"end":505.353,"text":"捨不得拋棄那麼就變成是接下來的壓力就要在國安局跟其他這些相關固守國安這一塊的這個我們政府同仁的工作上面了所以我也想先提出來做提醒我們還是希望在修法過程當中能夠多多考量我們國安面的關鍵謝謝委員提到這個問題讓我們來做說明好謝謝那麼接下來局長可以請回我要請外交部林部長請林部長委員好"},{"start":511.892,"end":540.538,"text":"部長好 我相信最近國際的事情非常多從日本的高市早苗再到我們幾個友邦也都在正在面臨這個所謂的大選喔那麼我們知道選一個民主國家那麼政黨輪替上台下台都非常的平常那麼也是非常正常會發生的事情那麼目前呢我相信媒體最關注的一個是目前洪都拉斯的總統大選目前似乎還在進行當中不知道外交部有沒有收到最新的最後結果了"},{"start":542.048,"end":569.834,"text":"今天早上我有知道最新的投票率然後前兩位領先的又有一點改變但是現在的執政黨就是跟我們斷交的他們的候選人是遠遠的落後所以這兩位領先的總統候選人都曾經在競選時候公開表達將跟台灣未來恢復邦交另外一方面我們也跟這兩位總統候選人的陣營都有"},{"start":571.114,"end":599.554,"text":"保持這個溝通一個很好的聯繫的管道因為我相信如何維持在不論是有沒有在成為執政黨的過程當中其實外交部因為本席多次的都跟這個外交部的同仁一起到歐洲或其他國家去做訪問我們都知道其實當我們見的委員不一定是執政黨的委員在野黨的委員其實我們也都會有所交流原因就是因為其實外交的藝術是跟這個國家維持一個穩定的邦誼"},{"start":600.555,"end":612.585,"text":"那麼現在面對如果上台的都是比較在立場上親台的部分那麼是不是外交部也比較有信心我們可以有機會把洪都拉斯這樣的一個邦交國再爭取回來"},{"start":613.96,"end":632.577,"text":"當然他們新的總統跟政府他會有一個政策的方向雖然他競選的時候有講不過執政之後當然也要去做一個正式因為是變成一個政府官方的決定只是我們這不過都是一個很積極跟開放的態度希望能夠爭取跟洪都拉斯建立外交的關係"},{"start":638.444,"end":662.24,"text":"好那麼同樣的本席也要提醒當然也有這個關心到盛文森的狀況那麼其實不論是政黨輪替之後對於台灣的立場是比較友善又或者是對於中國的立場比較親中的我相信在這個部分外交單位應該其實都有一些掌握是嗎也就是說其實我們的外交工作在在帝國在友邦當中其實都是有針對這些"},{"start":664.582,"end":680.356,"text":"但住在國的這個整個政情有做一些因應那麼你們是不是都隨時的有去做滾動式的討論有以盛文森來講我們的大使已經有跟新的總理會面也有這個轉交總統的"},{"start":684.219,"end":705.162,"text":"跟我們政府對他的一個祝賀他也表示感謝那很多在進行中的方案也會持續那當然新人新政他的重點在哪裡我們也會跟他再進一步討論另外其實也剛選完的是聖露西亞那因為是原來的執政黨他繼續執政那我們也都維持很好的關係"},{"start":706.283,"end":724.946,"text":"好 所以說這個外交同仁在第一線非常的辛苦那我們雖然提出這樣的一些詢問但是我當然也知道在外交的過程當中有很多東西只能先做 無法先曝光那麼在這邊的話本席還是要請外交同仁在努力的變局當中努力為台灣的外交爭取更好的成績謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6f167fe8d642ec0d04cd0246cdf0bd28b7be3e8fe055fbc133c4597e45d0cb6bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:12:35 - 10:20:35","影片長度":"00:08:00","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra 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有喔他們一直在陳情 他們很緊張他們知道你們應該明天就要公佈嘛"},{"start":55.185,"end":70.124,"text":"那現在初步得到消息是說可能還有一年的落日今天執行非常非常重要他們說一定要轉達不要冒險可以的話就立即前面的禁止"},{"start":71.565,"end":94.355,"text":"因為風險太大了不是只有兩千億的這個經濟的這個損失的這個問題你看一個一個牧場或一個養豬場一發生那個事情全國都受害吃肉吃麵什麼那些都沒得吃了對生活影響也很大那更重要的這幾天西班牙"},{"start":95.902,"end":123.305,"text":"也爆發了那個非洲豬瘟嘛 你看西班牙 你看那個伊比利斯那個都很高級的 那個火腿都有進口到台灣的 因為都怕不聽話他說他說最有可能的感染是因為什麼那個冷切肉啦 三明治啦 受污染那個食物被弄到垃圾桶裡面去了就被處理嘛所以真的是很危險啊 真的很危險 另外今天我們在審這個動保法動保法的第五條第二項"},{"start":124.884,"end":150.759,"text":"第二項的第一款聯名訂啊你要給動物的是乾淨的這個食物啊他們那些年輕人給我看那個養豬聯盟給我看那個廚藝裡面那個髒的真的是好不好裡面甚至有些過期的藥都丟到裡面去了所以禁止是非常非常重要的那今天也要討論一個很重要的就是我看你們的政策裡面有提到說"},{"start":151.82,"end":181.403,"text":"一年如果他又裝了這個GPS或者是這個溫度跟影像的這個監視器你知不知道這要多少錢養豬賺的錢是很辛苦的你叫他現在去裝這個然後只能用一年這是菸往前啊也不最實際啊所以次長我非常明確的你現在的背景我非常明確你明天宣布之前看不能不要再一年了啦就全面立即好不好"},{"start":182.81,"end":184.76,"text":"老丁 阿娜你被回答了"},{"start":186.614,"end":213.854,"text":"你盡量去爭取啦 其實不是我嘛你今天聽到所有的立委都是這樣我們早上跟那個養豬協會其實也有說這個事情啦你早上他們一定都這樣說的嘛就是風險當然要儘快把它阻斷掉這個風險冒不得 冒不得不然要再載一輩啦所以我想這個共識是有的那就剛剛這個現在簡報上面這個其實環境部也同意啦因為你說農民一間中這個GPS也好整潔影像系統也好"},{"start":214.935,"end":241.23,"text":"因為我們現在是加大力道然後鼓勵他趕 儘快轉型他本身就有裝的就好你現在為了這年要去裝那個齁 玩弄錢啦所以就趕緊來轉型這個政策就不切實際啦你如果是一個養豬場你假如現在去裝這個一年後就不能用所以趕緊提供轉型的飼料補貼趕緊對他吃治療而且那個補貼一定要加快 加快力道加大這邊的力道我們來看各國怎麼做啦各國怎麼做啦"},{"start":242.97,"end":270.544,"text":"日本就是全部都飼料化嘛所以你現在就是一直讓他飼料化這個廚藝都是說他要處理去化過程或者飼料化其實不只最好參考嘛那政府現在做什麼事情你就是能補助力道他再加強好不好這個你要盡量去爭取好 謝謝要去幫他們爭取那另外就像韓國的處理也不錯啊韓國除了飼料之外他有肥料化甚至家庭的那個什麼燃料他都可以用啊可以能源化這生殖能啦對對好OK好來好我另外問一個我好像很重要的事情"},{"start":271.264,"end":296.688,"text":"我給你談漁民的辛酸漁民啊 昏臨的漁民啊 5年前5年前喔有20多位在雲林的這個漁民啊一天的清純近百位警察湧入雲林的台子港沙雕崙台西的這個汶港到家裡面去搜索用什麼罪名"},{"start":298.373,"end":323.791,"text":"逮捕了這些居堤的這些漁民可憐的漁民還把他們上銬把他們帶走檢方後來要起訴他們什麼組織犯罪詐欺企裁為什麼要問農業部因為政府在推動綠能的時候業者入侵了他們的傳統的這個漁場結果他們以往變弄壞了"},{"start":328.629,"end":354.329,"text":"後來政府出面去做協調這本來就要賠嘛 本來就要賠嘛結果出現什麼事情竟然業者去告 檢方還起訴他們咧你看欺民大可憐 我長久在那邊捕魚啊你現在發展綠電結果你割破了漁網政府出面去協調 現在完以後竟然還要被告大部分的純樸的這個移民啊"},{"start":356.786,"end":373.019,"text":"沒辦法就認罪協商了有三個人我現在唸出他的名字李平順 林青池跟賴品硯他們說我沒罪啊我們就很委屈啊所以我們在力爭到底後來在傅金璿的這個前夕"},{"start":374.588,"end":399.837,"text":"判決沒有罪今天我為什麼要把這個拿出來做一個非常重要的質詢 大家看一下他們被用組織犯罪跟詐欺起財 大家看一下連媒體喔看下一張媒體都把他們稱為叫什麼利人蟑螂今天我要請次長做幾件很重要這個事情"},{"start":400.731,"end":414.675,"text":"我們的漁民那麼的純樸他們帶有維生的儀場被入侵了結果他們叫天天不領 叫地地不應現在還好司法還給他們清白了次長你們回去討論一下是不是至少去看這幾個20幾個這個漁民 好不好"},{"start":419.571,"end":436.229,"text":"農業部第一個很具體的 我很具體的要求去看看這些受害的漁民 這是第一個第二個 當政府在推動綠能的時候如果讓某些漁民或者農民生計上受到很大的衝擊你們要多幫農民跟漁民講講話 好不好"},{"start":439.195,"end":452.744,"text":"感謝委員跟我們一樣 其實對我們的農民和漁民總是站在第一線 要關心 要跟他們合作我想這個案子我們去了解一下 因為要去關心一下到底發生什麼事 因為我們說台灣的漁民已經靠我們了不然就照顧我們的農民漁民而已 謝謝委員我們台灣的漁民三十二萬五千人 僱傭七萬萬 婚姻三萬萬"},{"start":462.332,"end":477.923,"text":"我阿凱的故鄉嘉義也有15000人在那裡從事漁業可是他們現在在整個推動那個利潤的過程不管是光電或者是海上這個風機有受到一些衝擊請農業部要多幫忙那我今天這個個案非常非常的明確他們真的很心酸 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主委早安主委針對今天銀行法第125條的修正草案基本上就是現行的法案將惡性的一個吸金跟地下匯兌混在同一個"},{"start":26.552,"end":47.722,"text":"處罰上面導致就是說在司法上的這個法官在那個現實的這個案例上我們常常覺得就是說地下會對的行為罪不至於而輕判讓真正年代的就是侵吞民眾的血汗錢的這些吸金的詐騙集團難以獲得應有的這一個重處所以"},{"start":53.064,"end":79.441,"text":"我不知道就是說主委站在今天的一個修法裡頭你看到了就是說蔡議委員還是牛喜廷委員他們兩個其實是有截然不同的一個思維喔那一個是就是他是把兩個那個地下會隊跟那個惡性細菌是擺在一塊的同一個法條上面的一個是把他就是分開的那我覺得我想聽聽你的一個看法"},{"start":79.941,"end":106.13,"text":"是 我剛才在書面報告跟口頭報告也就說明了其實我們銀行法本來就對違法匯兌跟違法吸金有分雙層次的處罰一個就是在一定金額以下的時候是三年 十年以下然後超過一億以上的時候是七年以上我想這個本來就是刑務已經做了這個刑期上已經就說你的危害重大的我就重大"},{"start":106.67,"end":128.616,"text":"那這次委員的提案裡面呢是把那個對於那個就是一億以上改成實質所得這也是我們最近就是我們也是比較擔心像比如我們現在打詐專法裡面很多時候車手他說我去領那個些錢我只是拿點手續費所以那個金額就比較小所以這次我們要把它調整成是以犯罪所得而不是以你的實質所得"},{"start":129.236,"end":152.937,"text":"那我想說這個就是我們在包括銀行法在司法的見解上已經非常明確了就是它還是以總額來看所以這是我們會建議說還是維持現有的方式剛剛也有委員關心就是說那假設我們詐騙很嚴重是否該把那個七年以上或者怎麼再把它提高這個社會可以討論剛剛我們其實法務部代表有提到就是這要跟所有的刑度來做一個橫頻的考量"},{"start":153.277,"end":166.89,"text":"好 卓偉我們看到你的態度啦那就是說另外再有一個議題就是說每一天的這個股市的交易量已經都是接近甚至就是說常常就是快要接近這個五千億的當日"},{"start":168.912,"end":196.692,"text":"那这个金融那个内控有没有失灵那个开户的一个瑕疵跟人头的一个代钞这些问题其实我们看到了就是说因为我们有很多父母是要帮孩子节税所以他帮孩子开户投资ETF还是说这个我们纳称他就是广称他是儿童股民那目前就有27万户这个是儿童股民"},{"start":197.392,"end":220.382,"text":"那公然的人頭戶代鈔在金管會的眼裡這個是不是一個正常嗎這個牽涉到就是前陣子你大概也熱議就是說未成年開戶這部分我想我簡短的請銀行局跟我們政經局局長給委員做一個簡單的回覆好 謝謝好 報告委員那個未成年開戶這個是回歸到民法上面的規定不管是限制行為能力還是無行為能力"},{"start":221.022,"end":237.905,"text":"我們銀行在辦理開戶的時候都會依照民法相關的規定去徵提他的這個法定代理人相關的資料那至於開戶之後相關帳戶的金流就是回歸到一般的管控程序不管是日常的強化EDD的這個程序銀行都還是要照做"},{"start":239.017,"end":257.879,"text":"好 謝謝局長我想好 OK 可以了那我還是回來請教主委主委我想銀行審查是不是有漏洞我們用20年前喬治馬利卡這一個事件造成了重大的一個金融的一個議題那相對的就是說"},{"start":259.18,"end":281.53,"text":"現有的這些金融機構他發行的信用卡可是有效的卡數我們可以看得到就是說大概集中在五成六成甚至還有第四成以下那這樣子的一個狀況那我今天要跟你探討的就是說這個銀行的一個開戶有沒有一些什麼樣的一個缺失那是不是會過寬過鬆還是過嚴"},{"start":285.651,"end":299.844,"text":"這個在後面後面我們再來提到就是說這個一些就是警示戶的一個問題那我用最新的一個開戶審查的一個指引裡頭來跟那個主委做一個探討就是說我們"},{"start":300.965,"end":320.921,"text":"前前後後就是說要拿到一張金融卡他可能就是說初次一個開卡那初次的一個就是辦卡的一個程序裡頭他一般戶那個時間建議是抓保守的一個小時我想如果是一個小時的話沒有人要跟你開戶了"},{"start":322.762,"end":327.384,"text":"這個是有點我們助理是寫的因為他們年輕人他們認為就是說要重演那事實上就是說整個證件跟查詢跟填寫這個申請書還有零零總總就是說刪證件還有拍照還有就是說金融卡的一個申請那這裡頭你認為這樣子的開戶審查"},{"start":346.47,"end":359.439,"text":"這個合理嗎有沒有需要改進的地方我問我個人的話待會可以請銀行局長跟我們簡單回覆其實我們自從我們上次因為那個反洗錢的規定以後我們走國際的標準"},{"start":361.22,"end":380.967,"text":"這很多的流程不是銀行這邊的資料他必須做很多的查證所以很多人他們也做好的宣導就是說實際上你真的要開戶的時候確實是需要這麼久的一個時間而且他們也都採用預約的方式盡量減少我們客戶的等待時間我想現在實務這樣做我想這個必要性我請銀行局長簡單回覆一下"},{"start":381.647,"end":407.583,"text":"局長這有很多的規定沒有執行還是就是在執行的過程裡頭有很多的瑕疵這一個是不是應該我們需要改善的是 各位委員包括在開戶的過程裡面銀行都會訂相關的規定沒有錯但最主要的精神還是回歸到RBA就是說他會看看客戶自己本身的風險屬性會施以不同的徵信調查結果舉個例子來講如果在開戶的過程當中他是新轉戶"},{"start":408.604,"end":423.772,"text":"那可能這個整個開戶的程序就會很便捷因為本身公司那需要用到一個小時嗎如果是新轉戶的話應該是不用因為他本身就已經公司就已經有跟銀行往來那他拿出這個資源的一個那如果完全就是一個新的呢"},{"start":424.272,"end":452.504,"text":"如果是一個新的話在銀行現在的納客政策裡面他會去做分層的一個管理比方說他有沒有地緣性他是不是就在附近的戶籍或者是他是學生背景等等他會依照這個客戶不同的屬性施予不同的一個徵信調查的一個結果但重點還是在於當他變成是銀行的客戶之後他在日常的作業當中怎麼去強化比方說像金流異常這個時候他就必須要啟動相關強化的審查程序"},{"start":453.084,"end":475.542,"text":"所以你認為就是說我們整個開戶的審查其實基本上是真的是落實的而不是說家住在就是說有一些是家住在這個開戶人的一個身上有一些就是說因為我們為了要衝這個那個業務量我們要衝這個數字結果我們把它清放了所以你認為是四平八穩沒有問題"},{"start":476.623,"end":498.645,"text":"目前來講法規有但執行面我不敢講說百分之百所有的行員他都有去落實這個也就是為什麼我們要透過經檢跟三道防線來去督導的一個制度好那就是針對著最近這個一萬塊普花現金一萬塊衍生出來很多的一個禁止戶跟警示戶的這一個問題"},{"start":500.006,"end":521.831,"text":"那這個卡來卡去的時候那有很多管制的措施到底是有銀行裡頭就是說他開了戶他一個月沒有用我們就把它取消掉有一些是六個月那這樣子多久沒有使用的一個管制措施當然就是說每一個銀行他的標準不一"},{"start":522.731,"end":546.628,"text":"那可是如果是禁止戶的話那萬一就是說禁止戶被鎖了變成警示戶的話那那個金管會你有講嘛你就說盡量要讓我們的國民趕快拿到這個現金一萬塊那你覺得這個禁止戶跟那個警示戶的一個問題到底出在哪裡"},{"start":547.368,"end":568.742,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到禁止戶跟警示戶應該是截然不同的概念因為警示戶是被有人去報警說這個帳戶用來詐騙有檢調單位通知銀行說這個把它凍結掉這是一個有犯罪疑義第三方的一個協賬禁止戶就是說他今天一個戶很久很久沒有動了"},{"start":569.642,"end":598.818,"text":"这件事情银行做了一些的比如说辅助的管控措施这个并不是说你这个就完全怎么样那是警示账户的发动权不是在银行是在于我们减掉单位减减掉的单位的发动所以这个不太一样我当然知道是不太一样那就是说主委现在就是说因为这个禁止户跟警示户造成民验非常地深所以我是不是要其实我希望的就是说这个到底有"},{"start":600.103,"end":625.399,"text":"有沒有其他的一個解決的方式像是線上的一個解鎖還是數位的一個確認不要每一次就是說你被造成了很大的一個民厭的時候就是說你隨時你被通知你是警示戶的時候還是就是說禁止戶的時候你都要再跑到銀行去然後拿著雙證件然後去解碼有沒有更好的一個服務方式"},{"start":626.065,"end":654.727,"text":"其實跟委員報告就上次因為我們在前一陣子的話有一兩家銀行他的所控產生社會上很多民怨我們就立刻就請他開始要做一些改善措施我想最近他們也大概都已經在落實做這個比如說他提供24小時的線上服務就是說怎麼用最簡便的方法去解控這些事情除非特別需要才到現場來這些部分我們都在精進中所以我們也看到所以我們在行政程序上我們一直在精簡"},{"start":656.168,"end":670.624,"text":"當然當然這部分我們會持續的要求因為這部分我們也會隨時關注這些民怨的反應我們會及時的跟銀行做那個及時的這些的這個所謂的監理的提醒跟管控"},{"start":671.044,"end":691.555,"text":"好 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我們請次長我們再請杜次長委員好次長好 我先詢問一下因為其實最近在我們台南大家都在討論一個議題也就是說我們對於流浪犬我們原地在回放"},{"start":27.782,"end":48.903,"text":"也就是說我們如果很多流浪狗然後我們這個動保處去把它做一個處理之後但是結紮完又原地回放所以這個議題大家一直在討論說這個政策是對的嗎因為其實應該如果看到很多的畫面"},{"start":50.151,"end":61.666,"text":"很多的学校门口几乎就是我们的这个流浪圈然后在现场晒日光雨小朋友都很担心很害怕"},{"start":62.253,"end":86.071,"text":"家长也很担心很害怕那么呢因为反应之后学校通报我们的市府相关单位也来做了处理处理之后他又马上回放回去然后到了一个礼拜之后还是一样晒日光雨所以在这个状态到底怎么样的政策才是对的"},{"start":88.484,"end":102.429,"text":"市長好 謝謝委員關心因為其實遊蕩犬的事情確實是現在各縣市都會碰到特別是都會行的應該這樣說其實如果遊蕩犬有攻擊人或追車又傷人或是有這些"},{"start":104.758,"end":120.918,"text":"比较具侵略性的行为其实我们在捕捉之后其实各县市就不回放了因为在各县市其实对这些曾经有这些应该叫做不良记录的流量犬抓了之后其实不回放这是第一点"},{"start":121.4,"end":137.979,"text":"那第二点台南市的做法其实我爱感恩了其实个性是要学习的第一个就是说那应该在那个收容中心都是去就是水泥固定的啦那几个龙舍啦关起之狗那台南市有一个非常好的弹性做法就是他找一块地他用呃"},{"start":139.04,"end":157.343,"text":"他的檢疫其實一點都不檢疫其實狗狗的遮蔽啦 餵食啦 活動啦都沒有影響但是不去大廈裡面他就用小狗屋一戶一戶有啊這個在原的成功裡就是一個非常棒的其實是一個非常成功的案例"},{"start":157.463,"end":175.811,"text":"那其实我们也把这样子的案例就是跟各县市说与其你要新土木发包做那种硬体的那种是一种方式没有不能做但是其实这种更快速可以加大量能收容那也一样有动物保护效果的其实台南市是一个我们非常好的示范在做那你知道那一块地基本上就是台塘的用地"},{"start":176.591,"end":201.427,"text":"所以如果说我们可以来用我们国家的土地或国营的土地然后来做这样子其实这也是我们的一个思考方式那离人民就有点远了就不是在弯道的出兵因为弯道的出兵大家会欢乐嘛那如果你用这些比较在林地或是国有地或是我们国营的土地"},{"start":202.367,"end":222.909,"text":"那在做這樣的一個簡易處理我覺得它就非常有意義那我們是不是應該達到收容的效果然後成本又比較低我們是不是應該要盤整因為其實這是很多家長跟我的反應就是說有 當時候在流蕩泉然後在這個學校的大門口曬日光浴"},{"start":223.59,"end":238.681,"text":"然後他們通報學校學校有處理但是一個禮拜之後又回放又一樣看到整個流蕩犬曬日光雨雖然他們並沒有任何攻擊可是小朋友看了會不會怕"},{"start":239.981,"end":259.287,"text":"所以謝謝委員提醒那像剛剛我們提到就是說我們也再來盤整有沒有地國家的地可以拿出來那也跟各縣市做媒合晚歷來這屆的簡易市的收容把量能擴大然後快速可以完成其實大家都願意因為你知道人的成功裡那一塊土地就是我跟台糖溝通的"},{"start":260.529,"end":280.186,"text":"那我覺得里長也很棒里長跟溝通李明然後李明同意他先從李明同意而不是說我們先做了然後讓李明知道了然後李明就說不行為什麼你為這個還沒有告訴我們你就已經去做了這樣的決定所以他是由"},{"start":281.027,"end":304.282,"text":"里民都同意然后我们才来争取台塘的土地来再争取这个中央的预算跟地方的预算非常谢谢委员支持那真是一个很好的成功的范例我们现在都是国管企业在说其实台南是做得成那这样子的模范其实应该是可以来推广对所以我觉得说中央跟地方要怎么样合作"},{"start":304.882,"end":327.777,"text":"因為最痛苦的就是爹嘛對 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我相信檢察官的辦案一定是物完物中一定要蒐集證據去認定事實這是檢察官職場的一個職場的ABC嘛這個一定要是這樣就處理嘛"},{"start":631.846,"end":646.639,"text":"我直接講啦很簡單啦錄個錄音帶啦也不用浪費大家時間反正問什麼問題都是一樣的回答對不對都是一樣的回答我最後還是要說一件事情一樣是這個報紙請全台灣國人看一看150億的福報東批已經承認啦"},{"start":658.838,"end":684.67,"text":"東批已經承認他們是配合中郵中郵要求他們來扶抱價格你報紙上已經揭露了承認啦然後呢所有檢舉指向的中郵總經理高層你們不碰啊拖21天還不碰啊我欣賞跟佩服看看下面那個32元的清潔隊員"},{"start":687.582,"end":704.057,"text":"32元捐給老婦人石荒老婦人被判刑啊不當民進黨的官不當民進黨國營事業董事長不當國營事業董經理可惜啊150億白花花的銀子真好啊我也跟部長說啦"},{"start":712.81,"end":734.362,"text":"我沒有抱什麼期待啦抱歉啦但是希望我這個沒有期待是錯的我看了多火大我其實一直在等我告訴你我每天在算我看檢察官什麼時候動手我真的沒想到可以拖21天我們國民黨為這個事情召開兩次專報開了今天待會開第三場記者會"},{"start":737.455,"end":748.312,"text":"我們為了監督今天政府不要浪費納稅人錢一百五十億不是小數字不要搞這種欲重顧情的事情 謝謝你"}]}},{"id":"166088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6c8072b005e45357009a18256bf6bdfeb7be3e8fe055fbc13c89ebdc37aa605965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:49:41 - 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我們就來研議一下這個因為現在執行已經有一定的經驗了嘛那一個月嘛 好不好可以一個月我們提報告給好 謝謝 謝謝主委那接下來呢最近其實討論度非常高就是有關於受險業的部分那受險業我們一直持續的寬容然後我們非常的體貼的政策逐漸的出爐"},{"start":107.814,"end":129.459,"text":"最近有關於匯率、會計變革的方案當中,壽險公會其實已經提出四個提案,一個是屬於AC項目的債券投資部分的攤銷評價,第二個部分是採取10年的匯率均價,這個部分是最前提到的,第三是地眼資產,第四是匯率的覆蓋法。"},{"start":130.839,"end":155.12,"text":"這公開提出這四個當中討論度比較高的話看起來是一跟四的這個部分但是顯然之前他提會對的這個部分是一個平均的年期把它拉長的情況底下他還是會隱藏一個風險也就是說當匯率劇烈變化的時候譬如講當初受到這個華盛頓廣場協議所造成的影響從40斗降到25%的時候這不是不可能"},{"start":155.82,"end":171.113,"text":"因為一般的說法現階段的這個川普他所發起的關稅戰在明年五月的時候鮑威爾如果卸任之後可能會發起所謂的匯率戰但是隱藏在這種風險的情況底下單純的把時間拉長或許還是有他的風險的存在"},{"start":171.713,"end":200.124,"text":"但是拉長的結果是不是能夠解決這個問題我想各方還有爭議我想就較於主委的部分工會提出的這四個方案當中會不會還有金管會的版本有第五個方案或者這四個方案當中您認為哪一個是比較適合哪一個比較符合現狀其實跟委員報告就是因為工會他是單純從業界的角度提出他們的這個看法我想這個就是他代表工會的立場"},{"start":201.324,"end":222.341,"text":"我想我們最近也廣泛的徵詢學界還有會計師界還有快言基金會這個權威機構的一些的意見他們給我們的很多非常寶貴更全面的意見有幾個重點就是說怎麼樣能夠真實的反映這個受審議的經營模式是一個最核心這個大家的共識就是說"},{"start":223.762,"end":248.754,"text":"現行而且我們從會計學界來看的話他們有個共識就是說現行的IAS21對於這些比如說我們以持有到期AC攤銷的債券本身如果一個是用歷史成本評價一個是用現實估計這就違反了會計最基本到底是歷史成本還是現實估計的概念所以他認為現行的制度大家有個共識是不合理而且不符合我們的這個"},{"start":249.494,"end":269.348,"text":"那至於剛剛就接下來這個不合理以後或不對的時候該用什麼方式來討論剛剛委員有提到就是說我綜合學界他們的看法還有就是會計世界大家比較大的共識還是比較傾向AC那個攤銷的方式讓它所謂的評價的基礎能夠變成一致但這個細節的部分也就是方案一嘛"},{"start":269.748,"end":287.191,"text":"就是AC的部分的債券投資的部分比較占比比較高剛剛委員提到說我們有沒有可能其他的看法這個就是要因為是公會是我剛才講是站在他的立場我們會再跟學界還有快原基金會這邊再做一些討論細節的部分我想這個觀念上就是說你該揭露的都要揭露只是說"},{"start":288.012,"end":304.959,"text":"要不要進損益表多少這個才能完成的就是完全的允當表達真實經營的模式我想這是我們所要探討的其實公會雖然是公會提出來但是四個意見當中也有學界的附身以第一個方案來說鄭定旺鄭教授就是滿認同第一方案的以前我們看會計"},{"start":306.9,"end":327.279,"text":"我們在念會計學的時候幾乎都是鄭定旺老師的書嘛 對不對所以說現在還是有一個比較大的呼聲依照剛剛主委的這個回答當中也可以顯現出來是第一個的可能性是獲得比較多專業團體還有公會團體的認同嘛好 那另外一個部分其實就最近來說的話我們金管會所提出來的有關於這個壽險體質的一個"},{"start":329.742,"end":347.478,"text":"這個變革的措施當中不論是會計接軌的這個IFR 17的在地化或過渡化的一個寬容措施也好或者這個匯率的會計的變革剛剛我們提到的部分也好甚至有討論到實質支付的漲價制度也好以至於非常期的保證利率的制度也好這些看起來"},{"start":349.11,"end":375.995,"text":"都是對業界非常的這個優しい非常的體貼也就是說非常的寬容也就是說都偏向於產業面但是本席要提醒這個主委另外一個部分我們除了對產業寬容之外我們更應該考慮到終極的目標要如何讓保護受益也就是說現階段的整個受險的過程當中您一直強調的也就是過度曝險"},{"start":379.401,"end":402.766,"text":"过度避险过度避险的原因就来自于过度曝险过度曝险的原因是来自于过度保障过度保障的原因是他想要过度吸金嘛也就是说过度这个避险是尾端的事情前头就是保险业者当初失衡的心态想要过度吸金而过度保障因此过度曝险然后才有过度避险的问题不是吗"},{"start":404.111,"end":419.7,"text":"對啊 結構上的原因在這邊嘛那您應該在考慮到末端的部分會計準則做一個定義上的調整的過程當中應該思考的它源頭的這個部分要怎麼做調整源頭的部分傳統的受險的比例只佔54%投資保險的部分還是39%啊"},{"start":421.421,"end":440.098,"text":"結果你讓他整個風險係數降低之後會不會讓他有恃無恐固態復發更加往海外投資對不對主委你要思考清楚當你這邊放的時候這邊有沒有可能收收跟放有沒有同時進行才能徹底改變他的體質"},{"start":441.119,"end":468.223,"text":"其實謝謝委員的關心我想剛才提到我有兩點稍微簡單說明一下我們剛才講的是寬容市場這樣我們從來都不認為這是所謂的因為我們是個制度的建立者我們是建立一個合理的制度剛才講的比如說剛剛匯率的問題就是你可以去問財務學者就知道他們現在避險叫做over hedge不是對的事情我們把它合理化而不是把它寬容化"},{"start":468.963,"end":483.039,"text":"這是重新定義化再來比如說剛才講那個比如說我們的那個接軌如果ICS接軌如果我們仔細研究的話新的制度非常的高那我們只是用時間換取空間讓它往上走其實也不是寬容"},{"start":483.82,"end":505.68,"text":"至少這四份來說對於業界基本而言相對而言是利多那我意思是說你如何讓多少的保護能夠相對有利多的狀況也就是說它目前為止還是投資型的占了高39%醫療型才4%而已我意思說站在一個保險業的一個真正的社會責任來說"},{"start":506.801,"end":524.286,"text":"他如何用商保来辅助健保应该是保险业应该做的事情对不对可是现实上我们看得到的长照险也好或者是失智险 失能险也好比例非常之低效果非常有限"},{"start":525.106,"end":549.197,"text":"保障啊 非常之少啊所以應該在這個過程當中我們在釋放出來這個政策調整的利多過程當中你要如何落實保護的權益能夠提升嘛是是是 這點其實委員剛剛提到我剛剛講說我們對於受險業體質強健的要求跟增加消費者的保護跟他的福利是不衝突的我想這件事情 剛剛委員的提點我們會來努力"},{"start":550.638,"end":571.503,"text":"是不衝突啊但是你要怎麼收怎麼放啊你不能這麼放了之後你將來收不回來我就講嘛你因為之所以過度避險的原因就是過度負險嘛你剛剛也回答其他委員說高達六成在海外投資居多嘛現階段我們想方設法就是要把海外的資金吸引回來進行公共投資"},{"start":572.463,"end":580.132,"text":"然後另外一部分呢我們也用這種方式如果說你把它完全把它去風險化或降低風險化的情況底下會不會減少他們吸引回來的一個可能性二來呢 是不是他們過度的吸金的結果也會造成過度曝險的這個結構性的改變這個部分也要我們去面對的啊主委"},{"start":593.847,"end":610.921,"text":"這個階段當中你有沒有可能要求這個海外投資或者是包括這個投資的項目保險的項目當中商業保險的部分把它做一個總額的管控把它一個降低另外保險的這個醫療險的部分要求一個提高"},{"start":611.181,"end":640.163,"text":"有沒有可能做這樣的政策要求其實這就是我們政策但是我們不會用限制我們會用其他的方式來去扭轉這個我在很多場合已經講過了就是要解決受險業的問題它是個慢性病必須要長期來調整對 但是主委主委你的政策目標也要揭示嘛你要說你是用鼓勵的方式你不用限制可是你現階段大家沒有看到你這個部分大家社會面所期待的保護所期待的醫療保險現階段跟社會市場需求落差"},{"start":640.683,"end":665.905,"text":"非常之大這個主要是剛才講說當然委員您剛才看到那個保費這個因為它是不同等比比如說很多的我們傳統型它是完全以理財投資為目的但看保費是不準的因為我們的醫療險都是紮紮實實的保費就跟你看意外險的保費從保費來看它其實保障額度很大但保費相對是比較少這樣比是看不出來我想說主要是我們要營造一個"},{"start":666.846,"end":683.034,"text":"公平的經營環境讓我們的商業保險能夠進入到這個領域來能夠跟我們的健保能夠相輔相成這件事情是我們要來做的然後你這個部分有沒有可能同時進行在這個部分同時要求"},{"start":683.494,"end":689.719,"text":"做一個體質的改善然後把它列為共同的政策目標我相信這會比較符合社會的期待我們會朝這個我們現在就在做了啦就已經在做這件事情我想委員的提點我們都會麻煩做更明顯一點啦好不好可以可以更明顯一點嘛這樣給他多一點壓力嘛"},{"start":701.129,"end":712.899,"text":"不要只是看到那個蘿蔔沒有想到後面可能會有棒子嘛其實我們棒子蘿蔔都有啦對啦 那一併接入嘛好不好主委 是的 謝謝好 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次長好 次長請問一下你在工作之餘有沒有在社區附近的公園運動或者是觀察一下這個周遭的環境設施有那可不可以回應一下你再分享一下你住家周邊的公園有哪些主要運動設施"},{"start":34.207,"end":54.304,"text":"我們家附近有一個運動公園它有一個滑冰場它有好幾塊草地草地還有兩三個棒壘球場因為我住林口我家就在林口運動公園旁邊棒壘球極限運動然後有幾個蠻剛好的在這個部分兒童的遊樂區那是否有無障礙設計多功能運動空間體現設施長者的部分"},{"start":61.77,"end":85.839,"text":"目前沒有那麼明確被標示出來我現在看得到的就是要從馬路進到那個場域它那個地方是有個Ramp也就是說輪椅可以上得去的目前那個地方是看得到的為什麼會帶這樣的話題其實我是希望說從您個人的觀察角度我們來看到怎麼推廣運動平權該如何讓大眾養成親近運動友善實用的這個公共設施的習慣是"},{"start":87.791,"end":107.168,"text":"这个其实是我刚刚的报告当中有提到它是一个制度性它是一个长期的工作它还有牵涉到很多观念的改变其实我要这样子要进而带到我自己本身在选区有遇到这样子很多的家长需求我不知道你有没有想过能够跟自己的孩子投接棒球"},{"start":107.928,"end":124.778,"text":"當然有我覺得這很多家長尤其是父與子的一個期待那面對這一個棒球又是所謂的台灣的國球可是我們看到最簡單的頭階在很多的不管是校園的操場連校園開放"},{"start":126.86,"end":151.172,"text":"夜间的时候或者是公园连投接棒球都不行因为就是禁止打棒球因为他有他的风险在对那风险这个第一第二就是在投打的时候也怕是会有这个所谓的极球的部分攻击到人但是很多的家长只是很单纯的希望单纯的投接没有要打击但是却没有一个投接的这个场域"},{"start":152.212,"end":176.684,"text":"來做一個親近國球親近運動各式運動的一個機會所以我想運動部升格以後社會對整個政府的期待不只是追求國際球場上我們的成績更希望在平時不分年齡性別地域身心狀況每一個人能夠更方便的更安全的沒有障礙的參與運動這是我們希望能夠落實運動平權的"},{"start":177.745,"end":205.753,"text":"那也是我们努力的一个目标对但是目前并不是每一个人身边都真的像有一个安全便利或者是友善的运动像您说的您在林口这个部分刚好可能有这个擂球有这个极限运动的一个机会可以亲近可是有很多的国人并不一定能够亲近到这个部分的运动设施是的所以像我刚刚常讲的可能投接棒球能不能够增加这些场域它可能很简单的一个围栏"},{"start":206.755,"end":233.448,"text":"他就這樣一個很為難就可以處理甚至我們有一些工時很長的勞工他住在偏鄉住在或者是身心障礙者高齡者即使想動卻常常被環境所困住了被制度所擋在門外所以想請教市長在這個現行的運動政策白皮書都一再強調提升全民運動擴大運動參與可是落實運動平權跟社會包容請問目前運動部對於運動平權"},{"start":235.009,"end":262.976,"text":"的方面推动有没有具体的行为目前我们是希望透过因为刚刚委员所提到这个小型的运动设施他都必须要跟地方政府去合作没有错 我知道所以我们必须要先把我们的指引提出来也就是我们刚刚一再强调我们未来要推动的就是希望能够运动全民化的一个概念我们希望能够普及所以我们会跟地方政府去合作请他们提这一类的案因为中央政府能够是给他们做补助他们如果不提案"},{"start":263.556,"end":292.172,"text":"我们没有办法自己到地方去盖这些简易的设施我先这样讲如果设置起来这个是地方政府的权责但是中央政府能不能给予指引给予补助再来我们都常常在讲财化法财化法这个部分我现在要的是不是要你直接专案补助大额补助全额补助有时候就是哪怕你给两成因为财化法关系可能中央的部分能够给予的补助越来越有限但是你给两成以后"},{"start":293.137,"end":319.313,"text":"地方不做你看地方會不會被罵一定會啊你給了兩層就是拋磚引玉了嘛但我現在希望做的是中央要有一個指引要有一個極度建議讓地方願意去做甚至我給了一層兩層三層你地方不做我們就地方開始議員就會罵啦因為中央有補助款地方不配合啊所以這個部分我希望你有沒有做過盤點哪些地方的運動機會是明顯不足的"},{"start":319.853,"end":338.392,"text":"全面性的盤點事實上是沒有還沒有完成的的確那是我們要去我覺得應該要做會去做這樣的計畫的確是這樣子因為我們如果沒有做盤點我們沒有辦法去編列足夠的預算來讓地方來做申請我們也希望我們一再的強調大型的場館現階段不是我們要去走的我們希望"},{"start":339.213,"end":359.636,"text":"场地的设计是可以亲民好用的台中可不可以先来做一个盘点我请台中市政府要配合我来帮你督促我们可以跟地方政府做多方面的讨论我很愿意做的一件事情是建立一些model出来之后让更多的县市政府可以去follow因为政府的预算也是有限"},{"start":360.177,"end":380.84,"text":"因為我現在看到我原本想問你面臨的主要困難在哪裡但是現在看到第一個困難就是我們沒盤點沒盤點沒辦法去編列預算所以我希望台中市就能夠作為第一優先被盤點的一個部分因為我們提出了那也希望你們能夠提出這個需求那地方政府一定要配合好不好可以這部分可以嗎可以其實我在"},{"start":381.701,"end":398.99,"text":"一個多月前就有碰到台中市的郵局長我跟他說我想要到台中去跟他談一談足球基層的推廣因為那個地方的足球人口原區我們也正在興建當中我希望能夠建立一個好的地方政府的一個model然後讓全國各縣市可以去follow"},{"start":399.11,"end":421.462,"text":"有機會我請他上來在立法院我們也一起來談談聊聊足球園區的未來規劃跟運動足球這個部分的推廣好不好但我想近年來身心障礙者的一個運動權益我們逐漸受到了一個重視可是在設施上可敬信跟專業輔具的方面仍有挑戰運動部有沒有跟衛福部協調了解身心障礙者的實際需求實際的需求我們會"},{"start":422.623,"end":448.205,"text":"没有那么的理解虽然过去有接触可是它的执行的内容并不是很多包含了现在障碍者要到我们一般的运动中心去他为了要做一个简单的bench press对他来说都是困难重重对困难重重我们会从设计上面我们会从研究上面去开发我们自己的产品因为目前在芬兰有一系列专门针对障碍者的运动器材可是进口某种程度还是困难的"},{"start":448.385,"end":464.754,"text":"我認為是這樣子國外當然我們要參考但是我希望不管是剛剛前面的盤點跟現在我們應該實際去了解身障者運動權益他在推動上需要什麼需求我們再來推動所以我原本要問你有什麼推動策略但我覺得第一個最重要是先了解需求"},{"start":465.234,"end":480.031,"text":"所以这个部分我也希望你能够加强我的理解当中可以的我理解当中我们适应师就是在做这样子的盘点好那另外我想跟你讲就是孩子的运动时间常常不足我自己也是三包奶爸那我个人都"},{"start":480.111,"end":504.056,"text":"我覺得這個是家長最常反應的也最普遍在問的一個問題孩子在學校上課七到八小時下課時間有限放學後又常常要補習兩到三小時面對這樣子的一個日常要抽出時間來運動其實已經是全國家長的一個最大困境所以我們常在講要給孩子更好的運動空間希望學校不要賣這個含糖的飲料之類的但是我注意到整個報告當中"},{"start":505.436,"end":531.753,"text":"确实有提到儿少面相但是内容集中在经费补助儿少体育运动教练跟知能的一个课程比较偏向孩子开始运动之后这样的强化措施那我要谈的是当他接触运动之后的强化你们有做但是却没有谈到我刚刚所谈到的一个问题也就是真正能够运动的时间到底有多少还有如何让他接触到运动"},{"start":532.493,"end":548.884,"text":"換句話說我們在強化是如何教孩子安全運動的同時卻沒有處理到孩子運動時間越來越不夠的一個瓶頸如果孩子一天上課加補習超過10個小時實際運動不到30分鐘那再多的指引恐怕都難以發揮效果你有沒有感覺到"},{"start":549.144,"end":571.703,"text":"完全理解也接受委員的指導我們接下來要做的就是社區俱樂部的一個概念就是在課後因為我們沒有辦法把學生直接從學校拉出來說你不要上課我們就是希望通過社區俱樂部的概念去推動我們小孩子的可親近性可是這個部分我要糾正你們一下我看了你們的一個網站全民運動署網站在全民運動項目裡面"},{"start":573.644,"end":593.658,"text":"我們看到女性運動跟兒少運動的相關規劃可以說是空白一片點進去裡面幾乎是一個很簡單簡介或者是可以說是願景因此我想請教次長面對兒少運動時間不足是個跨部會跨場域共同挑戰運動部的一個最核心最需要優先投入的著力點是什麼"},{"start":594.278,"end":618.628,"text":"未来运动部在自己的权责范围内是否有提升场地可进行扩大运动活动供给以及协助地方发展社区化的运动模式来做一个着手这个部分我认为要跨部会的协调运动部可不可以就教育部以及地方政府有一个更好的合作机制在孩子的有限日常时间里面给予更多持续的运动机会您觉得呢"},{"start":619.346,"end":639.324,"text":"沒有錯 你講的完全正確我們就是規劃在12月底以前我們會找教育部跟邀請地方政府共同來為這件事情因為我們不太容易單獨靠運動部就說在學校裡面怎麼做它必須是跨部會甚至還有地方政府要一起來努力我們就是希望能夠提供更多的機會給小孩子進來運動好"},{"start":640.305,"end":657.03,"text":"那12月底我們看一下效果那我也是要跟你再次提醒那個網頁啦這個空白的確讓我們很擔憂啦我們希望說這個部分一定要補上所以這個我最後再一個議題再跟你請教我們現在蕭副總統"},{"start":657.89,"end":672.302,"text":"在2025年11月的時候在這個達福林皮革運動的代表壽盛典禮上說我們成立運動部也有一個勢力的一個適應運動師就是要實現運動平權那也希望說以這個適應運動師能夠來以終身參與專業支持創新制度的一個創新投入一個資源"},{"start":684.352,"end":695.849,"text":"这部分我想他的谈话里面呢利益良善那我们也看到卓院长在12月2号也有在这样相关的一个访谈其免运动部积极发展适应运动"},{"start":697.317,"end":713.928,"text":"對這個高齡身障還有因傷需求者找到合適的運動方式這些都是因為我們看到社會大眾對於這樣的一個期待政府也希望把這些理念化成制度願景化成能力我們需要看到更完整的推動架構因此"},{"start":714.488,"end":741.907,"text":"我希望适应运动的指导者需要了解身心状况医疗背景还有运动风险的一个管理目前各场域的人力来源非常多元一般教练赋能的背景人员还有所谓的志工社区指导员皆有专业落差的这个相当大缺乏统一的一个基准请问运动部怎么去规划要怎么建立现在的一个适应运动教练职能的一个标准"},{"start":743.282,"end":769.171,"text":"適應運動教練職能這件事情我們必須要重新去看待長期以來我們的這些聽障礙者到外面去比賽的教練都是從一般的教練過來其實有部分的教練對於障礙者身體 生理上面的障礙他可能產生的運動過後的一些副作用其實掌握是不夠的因為我本身就是這個領域的人所以我們會希望去制定新一版的適應運動教練的這方面的一個職能"},{"start":769.831,"end":787.504,"text":"讓他在指導障礙者運動的時候安全還是第一個我們要考量一件事情好 稍微最後30秒目前多數運動中心社區據點跟學校提供的課程仍然為一般族群所為主那適應運動的課程量偏低"},{"start":787.984,"end":810.904,"text":"排成不稳定也缺少能够示范的常态化这个班级请问运动部是不是能够规划将私营运动也纳入到运动中心社区据点这个部分是我很关切的也希望这个部分会后我们能够再来救教是的谢谢委员拜托一下谢谢谢谢罗廷伟委员咨询次长请回座我给你五分钟"}]}},{"id":"166093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166093","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6f90c3e6b72c721a50bc060c38740833e7be3e8fe055fbc133fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:01:47 - 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谢谢赵伟 我们有请次长"},{"start":13.376,"end":37.25,"text":"市長早 委員您好剛才本席在下面聽到您回答羅廷維委員其實有一句話讓我真的非常的錯愕跟驚訝您說您並不了解生長者需要什麼樣的運動輔具我沒有這樣講有有有 你剛剛講那你告訴我你剛剛原話講什麼是說我們對於他需要的類型有很多我們不是那麼的完整的了解對嘛 就是不了解嘛"},{"start":38.29,"end":60.158,"text":"我跟你讲即便你把它修正成这样的说法我都觉得蛮严重的怎么会不了解呢我想我们在运动部虽然现在是从这个原来的教育部体育署出来不过呢学校归学校运动部跟运动部这是还是不能够分开的有很多还是要再做合作何况我们在选手的部分有很多像我们的帕奥啊听奥啊"},{"start":60.578,"end":85.031,"text":"都有相关的选手嘛怎么可以说不了解所以我觉得您今天在这里这样子回答说因为我们都不了解这些我觉得这个说法有失道我也很抱歉我不能说我全部不了解但是我也不敢说我什么都了解不要在这种言语上面来做这样无谓的争辩对不对你刚刚自己回答说你不了解不了解怎么会对呢你不知道修正还要在这里做这样言语上争辩怎么会对呢"},{"start":85.971,"end":109.976,"text":"是不是 如果連你次郎都不了解 請問一下運動部怎麼去幫忙這些身心障礙的這些選手們 或者是運動的朋友們是不是 還可以在這邊大剌剌地講說 我不是這樣講 是那樣講我沒有辦法這個全盤都了解但是呢 我可能有一部分了解 這在講什麼東西啊糾正你呢 你就應該要虛心接受不是嗎我接受 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謝謝主席好 來次讓我們繼續所以我也上網去看了您也可以上網去看一下運動部的公告兩次全國運動普查分別是在108年跟112年我們看到本席先以無障礙設施設置比例來看"},{"start":280.227,"end":304.855,"text":"成長的幅度最高的是在無障礙廁所那從過去的35.23%提高到了51.57%這代表的意義是還有一半以上的公有運動場館是沒有無障礙廁所的我覺得本性覺得非常嚴重還有一半那無障礙的停車格跟機車格比例分別只有36.15%跟13.85%我覺得這也是低的可憐所以你先看一下這個是我們相關的設施"},{"start":306.095,"end":334.654,"text":"好 我们再来看到无障碍的服务设置的部分包括大门的服务铃伸张者的咨询辅导视障人力引导听障者的沟通等等设置比例都是不增反减好 再来看本席认为更重要的就是无障碍运动设备跟辅具也就是您刚刚所说的你不太了解的部分那我们一起来了解一下其中比较多人要使用的游泳入水的坡道还有可调式的篮球框排球雨球网"},{"start":336.135,"end":355.895,"text":"设置的比例一样市长一样是不升反减您可以看一下这个比例我今天都在这里给您看了所以你看我们看到这些运动设施都是不升反减就没有更好反而更差这第一个第二个如果我们有改善那个比例看起来还是"},{"start":356.295,"end":367.206,"text":"絕大部分對我們生長者都是不友善的所以這樣子的一個數據下來我們的報告怎麼還能夠寫說是有顯著的成效你覺得這個報告這樣寫是對的嗎"},{"start":370.267,"end":389.808,"text":"如果用剛剛這樣的角度你這樣還要寫說是有顯著提升這樣是對的嗎我們可以把它調整一下可以調整好那我們再來看喔繼續看因為那個次長不是太了解沒關係我們也往下看喔另外像是做事排球田徑助跑器盲人足球棒球設置數啊都是零那"},{"start":390.248,"end":419.728,"text":"过去我们看到投职的辅助仪手摇跑步机在108年的时候我们的都还有在场外都还有可是我们到112年直接归零直接归零就没有了所以也许您今天可以回答我说某一些东西我们使用的比例不够高那所以呢我们可能就没有了或者取消了我不知道待会会给您点时间那但是我们如果今天在运动部全国普查的项目上是有这个项目的而它变成零了或是它变成更不好变负数了"},{"start":420.128,"end":440.186,"text":"这就是要检讨嘛对不对这个现场它就是不对好再往下我们再来看过去体育署在前瞻基础建设计划特别预算当中我们有补助地方政府在运动场馆办理改善无障碍的设施那包括了项目也非常的多这个次长应该知道那但是呢"},{"start":440.526,"end":467.93,"text":"这一些其实我们都是方便身障者可以进入到我们的运动场馆这些无障碍事实包括无障碍坡道这个身障设备还有刚刚我们提到的无障碍厕所的领域等等这一些其实都是方便我们的身障朋友们可以进入到运动场馆可是他们进来以后如果我们刚刚的那一些就是运动设置这个项目这个设备当中是没有的他进来做什么"},{"start":468.47,"end":497.065,"text":"他進來做什麼他沒有辦法直接參與這個運動這是沒有直接幫助的好接下來我們再來看審計部次長審計部在113年決算報告當中指出運動部全國運動場館資訊網登錄的100個你們自己登錄100個運動中心其中有48個運動中心是沒有設置無障礙這個運動設備的不管是運動池入水升降座椅或者入水坡道等等可調適籃球框"},{"start":498.266,"end":518.005,"text":"这些都是非常的重要无障碍的健身器材都没有而市长啊这100个运动中心当然我们可以说有42个目前是叫做在学校管理过去是体育署的时候它可能就是一体了那今天分开来了以后好那42个归学校我们当然要去督促学校或者看跟学校怎么合作跟配合"},{"start":518.706,"end":537.404,"text":"但是呢全国还是有58个国民运动中心啊是本席所说的没有啊设施什么都没有啊做的这么差好那你看哦我们提到的哦游泳入水坡道只有22个国民运动中心有设置篮球可调式的这个篮筐只有37个国民运动中心可设置"},{"start":537.944,"end":559.295,"text":"如果本席今天在以上所講的不管是我們國民運動中心我們公有的運動場館我們對於這個運動的設施 設備 環境都這麼差我們自己帶頭都做這麼不好請問一下我們今天要怎麼去談到這個平權我們要怎麼去談到在這些身心障礙朋友的運動權來 次長回答一下"},{"start":561.152,"end":587.646,"text":"這個部分我們會在未來在明年開始我們的確會編列預算專門針對運動中心去做一些調整因為的確在過去因為它是委外經營他們會從商業的角度去看待但是我們會編列特別的預算專門為這些需求去做改善多久的時間計劃有嗎改善要完成可能會花一點改善總要一個期程啦我們要一個短中長期嘛是不是"},{"start":589.138,"end":606.281,"text":"我們明天就可以開始做了市長我想今天市長也在這我們我是認為就是剛剛我們前段的時候我們在談說我不瞭解我覺得不瞭解這件事情倒沒有那麼嚴重因為我們就趕快去瞭解但我們的一個態度很重要"},{"start":607.122,"end":620.33,"text":"如果說我們覺得說我不清楚現在到底對於我們身心障礙的朋友們跟我們的運動員們有哪些地方對他們來說是不足的我覺得這件事是嚴重的OK 我的態度是對的了我就會趕快下去來幫忙 來解決"},{"start":622.631,"end":646.799,"text":"但是我的态度上如果是说因为我不了解我觉得这个是本席今天不能接受在这个点那市长我当然知道其实你也很认真那今天即便这个业务不管是不是你督导但我们都是运动部大家是一个团队尤其运动部刚成立大家对运动部有很多的期待期许也都在看着运动部会有什么成绩出来今天既然谈到平权我想我们不能很多事情就只做表面"},{"start":647.739,"end":677.305,"text":"有一个某一个数字好像漂亮了我们就说叫显著改善而你看到今天本席所提出来的每一样数字要不就是退步要不然还归零这很严重的所以呢我不一一细数但次长我请您今天我所提出来的我们每一项只要它数字是往后退步的请你告诉我原因是什么第二个改善计划是什么我们希望不但要让设施设备让我们的这些身心障碍的朋友可以进入到运动场内还要让他们能够运动"},{"start":677.705,"end":694.185,"text":"这两个层次我请次长在会后给我一个相关的检讨报告跟改善计划一个月内给我可以吗可以好谢谢你谢谢委员好谢谢万美林委员谢谢次长好接下来有请陈秀宝召委"}]}},{"id":"166092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d62a3c0177365457304cd0246cdf0bd28b7be3e8fe055fbc13ea2fa0b0c1a4ccb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:03:54 - 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謝謝召委 請杜次長我們請杜次長"},{"start":15.973,"end":30.332,"text":"市長好委員好市長先請教一下我在今年的5月7號提出來我們的國家執行權我希望他能夠納保對於這些不管是檢疫權 緝毒權或者是警犬 搜救權 國防"},{"start":30.973,"end":58.27,"text":"军犬这些都是为国家付出很多很重要啦而且他们也常遇到职业病甚至有面临一些意外的一些伤害那我觉得国家应该给他们更多照顾那也很谢谢我看到了农业部好像也有考虑这个纳入来投保了嘛在明年要来实施了是不是已经全部纳保了全部纳保了谢谢委员提醒这252只工作全部纳保了对很重要啦我觉得他们对国家的付出相当的多啦那我觉得对他们的也是我们对于"},{"start":60.091,"end":72.823,"text":"這些的執行權 甚至對於我們所謂的這些動物的一個很重要的保護指標也謝謝農業部 那這個部分如果我們把它入法進來的話未來讓它常態化的話 這個部裡面的看法呢"},{"start":74.474,"end":100.03,"text":"不要說只是剛好現在支持那如果關到不同的政黨執政或不同的首長有不同的看法我們支持啦其實應該要長期來做我覺得對於這個他們其實是國家很重要的一個夥伴他們不只是動物他們是我們很多夥伴我認為應該給予好不好那我們就把它入法好不好我們再修法說一盤入法那我請教一下像這樣的經費其實並不多啦像一年這樣估起來大概經費多少"},{"start":100.663,"end":129.862,"text":"大概五百萬左右 其實經費不多多少錢 五百萬 其實並不多啦以他們付出的 你剛剛光不要講 光一個非洲豬瘟他們那麼辛苦的在做這些 他們扮演的功能非常的重要這個不是我們有辦法做的事情我覺得這個五百萬其實是非常值得的我希望就把它納入法令中 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝農業部再來我要請教啦 我也有提到了有關於這個動物的寵物的一些"},{"start":130.823,"end":157.791,"text":"用品跟玩具啦我知道我們的食品有納入規範謝謝啦因為現在毛小孩很多甚至很多毛小孩扮演很重要的角色他對於人的這種陪伴跟他的這個有很多很重要的角色那我們有時候也常看到啦有時候在一些網路上面有的東西寵物的玩具一塊錢五塊錢十塊錢我們大家都理解啦一個賣一塊錢五塊十塊錢的東西他的品質真的是很難讓人完全放心啦"},{"start":158.351,"end":179.579,"text":"那在低價的狀況下他可能裡面很多的塑化很多的一些材質上有很多問題而這個在毛小孩他有可能在用這個用品的時候有可能就會傷害到他的身體更何況很多的家庭裡面也有其他的小孩他有可能也不小心就會所以我覺得這個也涉及到了毛小孩的安全也涉及到了整個家庭的環境的一個安全啦所以我是覺得這個應該"},{"start":181.019,"end":208.995,"text":"我們 我當然已經看到了也謝謝農業部啦在我經過質詢之後也有提出了一個選購的指南但是這個指南我覺得可能還不是那麼夠我會建議如果我們能夠評估把它納入到我們的我相信這個對於我們的動物保護法裡面也算是一大的進展當然我看到你們報告裡寫說現在國際裡面有這樣明確規範但是台灣常常做很多也是我們領先在很多的國家前面的我覺得可以思考看看怎麼樣的方式給予一定的一些的規範"},{"start":210.196,"end":236.184,"text":"或者一個方向那至少讓更多的業者或更多的人民在選購的時候或者更多業者在他要販售的時候他必須要更多的一些提出更多的一些證明我們可以確保在不管是在哪裡買到實體商店或網路上我們買到的是一個比較安全的東西給我們的動物們給我們的馬小孩們甚至給我們的小朋友們他不小心可能會吃到更安全的保障市長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":237.224,"end":248.883,"text":"謝謝委員提醒也謝謝委員鞭策我們應該要去就這塊再去做但是就像剛剛委員提到確實現在是沒有國際標準所以其實我們自己去訂老實講也不太知道到底OK 因為其實"},{"start":251.093,"end":267.53,"text":"市長我知道不容易啦齁你看一下現在這麼多樣這一頁裡面顯示這麼多樣那很多的都很便宜啦齁1塊錢3塊10塊20塊50塊都有那這樣的東西其實毛小孩越來越重要現在我們的犬跟貓都成為很重要的毛小孩了"},{"start":267.83,"end":295.07,"text":"那大家很多人甚至於他們一旦有一天因為健康而離開的時候對人其實是很難過的我覺得這個甚至很多的比較年紀漸長的孩子長大了以後他可能變成很重要的陪伴他的陪伴有可能讓人會更加的健康所以我的意思是說我們把這些事情做得更好的時候其實會顯示出台灣對這件事情是重視的我希望這樣好不好次長三個月的時間提出一個你們的評估好不好努力看看好不好先讓我們評估一下三個月的時間提出一個報告給我們好不好"},{"start":296.251,"end":314.845,"text":"好謝謝 再要請教一下我知道現在開始這次的非洲豬瘟其實廚餘的部分有做很多的思考那我的想法是這樣其實很多的包括這個養豬協會等等的大家也擔憂就是說因為如果你沒有辦法廚餘號做處理的話有可能一旦再爆發一次的話那大概"},{"start":315.765,"end":340.892,"text":"台灣就真的我們的這些很可惜台灣豬隻的風險甚至台灣豬隻可能就沒辦法再出口了所以我覺得朝向禁用廚餘的方向大概是一個趨勢必須走的方向那我的想法是能不能再加快這樣的一個速度啦因為如果你一年的時間然後你這一年裡面有人又繼續投資了廚餘的設備又投資下去他到底要不要投資他投資了一年後不用了"},{"start":341.312,"end":365.391,"text":"那不投資這一年的風險就拉高了所以我覺得這件事情我反而認為的是我們應該盡快來做決定盡快來做一個禁用但是對於這些使用的部分給予該有的合理的補償協助讓他們轉型甚至於讓他們協助他們我覺得這個才是一個快速決定的方案拖了一年的時間我覺得反而最後你一年後還是要禁的話那你何不就在這一年"},{"start":366.132,"end":389.371,"text":"尽快做决定不要拉出一年的风险这一年的风险万一又再发生一次的非洲豬瘟因为除于有某一家业者又没有一个小时90度的烹煮出了事情了万一出现这样的状况的话那恐怕来不及了你接下来一年后再进也来不及了所以我想这是共识因为不能再发生不能再发生所以我的意思说既然大家是共识的话我们要不要加快去做这件事情"},{"start":389.871,"end":416.464,"text":"兩個方式做第一個是我們把補就是如果能夠轉做飼料的這個補貼我們把它加大引導過來這邊這是第一個那第二個再就是說其實是大家包括養豬協會他們其實對這件事情他們也認為說要不要不要一年呢早一點 越快越好啦所以我們希望就是說把這邊的拉力加大讓它能轉型過來那有些現在已經裝了一些設備的其實環境部也同意說不然說補一半嘛"},{"start":416.724,"end":431.866,"text":"他說沒關係啦 你如果專制治療我們就本來有 設備我們都給你全額給你賣給你順心所以病這兩個部分都有對 但我希望這邊再可以更積極更那個啦 就是說這件事情只要有一個破口出現的話你整套制度就全部沒有成功只要有一個"},{"start":432.307,"end":462.047,"text":"所以我的意思是說既然決定要做了我認為就加快速度那該補貼就補貼 該支持就支持讓廚餘的部分就盡量不要再進入到豬隻的裡面去那這樣的方式這樣可以完全的堵絕掉這一年的風險你只要還是有這樣的制度在走的時候你就永遠風險存在那我要特別提醒那個小廠的要優先處理掉了好不好因為小廠的控制真的是完全難以控制你只要有一個廠出事情你整個台灣就又再毀一次了"},{"start":462.227,"end":481.436,"text":"所以我是說不要讓這種憾事再次發生好不好我希望就盡快的實施如果能夠立即實施然後給予這些已經投資的或是整個我們就去補助你補償你的損失然後讓你整個完全轉移的話那我們可以用最短的時間內讓我們的租資是最安全的"},{"start":481.896,"end":508.264,"text":"這是完全最沒有風險的方式因為我們很努力的在外面防堵但是你永遠不知道哪一個包裹或哪一個突然就一兩件跑進來一兩件跑進來又進到廚藝裡面去又進到豬隻裡面去那又毀了那我在講的是我們不希望未來等到再次發生的時候遺憾當年早知道早知道我們全力來做我們立即來做我們就不會發生這事情那不要等到那時候影響了數千億的我們的豬隻的產值的時候才再後悔"},{"start":508.584,"end":514.274,"text":"我寧可是現在我們加大力道立即來做好不好我希望處於這些事情我們立即來做謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d64891c14bf3de166609a18256bf6bdfebab4060e56b945967e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:37:29 - 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請彭主委委員早安主委早那麼我看這個數字今年金融業在前10個月它的獲利超過8400億獲利相當的亮眼它的獲利今年會不會上看上兆會不會如果你處一處上兆"},{"start":30.24,"end":57.277,"text":"今年的話因為可能幾個三頁裡面可能銀行還是持續表現的結許會可能會創下今年的新高今年可能會創下新高但是因為受險業受到今年四五月的衝擊其實上會減少很多它相對的比例也比較小啊受險相對比例小但是過去大概是六三一吧去年破兆嘛去年剛好破兆就是大概六三一這樣一個比例所以今年也是破兆應該沒問題今年我覺得有點吃緊因為這個比如受險業的獲利沒有那麼好"},{"start":58.322,"end":85.664,"text":"但今年會破照嗎不確定 但是銀行今年應該我們可以預期就是今年的獲利會比今年還要好銀行很亮喔 今年喔那在這樣子金融業這麼好的情況之下你站在金管會 你看它宗旨一方面監管 二方面希望你們手上的工具促進金融業能夠發展嘛所以這個員工非常重要你要不要公開喊話一下這個金工業給員工加薪啊"},{"start":86.263,"end":109.654,"text":"其實我跟委員報告就是我們在其實我們從今年開始應該講我們就不斷的跟金融業宣導所謂金融大回饋計畫其實在我們在新申請新業務的時候我們都會這個柔性的請他說你未來這個新業務的成果要如何回饋他們開始就是一直在做我們有系統的在做這件事情當然我們講回饋包括三個對象第一個叫做基層員工"},{"start":110.734,"end":126.677,"text":"一定要先針對你的基層員工進行福利的增加再來就是對你的客戶再來對社會大眾這我們會提出具體的金融大回饋計畫來促進這件事情這個確實是金融業未來會成為這麼重要的產業你就跟我講給我簡單的答案你要不要跟金融業喊話給員工加薪就問這個事情其實這個我命在很多場合跟他們呼籲過現在要不要再喊話一次"},{"start":138.32,"end":143.922,"text":"我剛剛講說其實我們希望基層會支持我們金融大回饋計畫裡面所以要給員工加薪我要問你這個啦這股啦這樣啦對我們支持他們對基層的員工鼓勵啦希望啦可以吧可以可以喔"},{"start":153.965,"end":169.623,"text":"那上市櫃公司也比較辦理因為今年號稱 哇贊圖哇贊啦GDP成長率有時候到7%啦所以今年會到7% 哇贊圖哇贊上市櫃公司你要不要也呼籲一下給員工加薪啊其實"},{"start":170.68,"end":187.931,"text":"也是感謝委員我們全職很支持我們的政交法已經調了今年必須要增加就是在章程裡面要提撥一定的比例為基層員工調整福利我想這已經都幾乎所有的上市櫃公司都已經調整了它的章程再來就是我們對今年的上市櫃公司的條件"},{"start":189.612,"end":207.445,"text":"他來申請上市的條件就要求比如說他的那個對於基層員工的薪資一定要達到一定的高水位才可以來做我想這個我們都希望由上市櫃公司來帶動我覺得另外問一個小問題也是很重要的問題你們有推出一個什麼加薪ETF有沒有有那個所謂的加薪指數對嘛 可是賣得不好啊那個不太有人要買這個啊"},{"start":216.102,"end":232.476,"text":"你有沒有去研究一下為什麼你加薪ETF加薪100加薪什麼的都嘣嘣嘣這個問題人家覺得不怎麼樣你要不要檢討一下或者什麼原因其實各位委員也有注意到我注意到了對我知道因為這部分我們是在做一個這個嘗試"},{"start":234.157,"end":254.308,"text":"資訊揭露對於這個善盡企業社會責任的企業我們給予鼓勵所以把它編一個加薪的指數可是華人問津不會就像我們在ESG的基金的過去我們也看到很多實證的研究也看到說它確實在因為投資人看的除了我們社會責任的善盡以外更重要是它的獲利你要多宣導宣導是我們會宣導這個給加薪的請鼓勵投資人多買ETF"},{"start":262.352,"end":264.273,"text":"沒有 這個委員的方向我們都支持好 來 第二個新北跟桃園 UBIKE從明年開始沒有投保不能夠騎 UBIKE這個民眾必須完成免費的投保它保費是市政府出的這裡面有第三責任險 傷害險等等的保險局怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":285.607,"end":298.457,"text":"我想這是一個政策保險 這不是商業保險 這取決於各地方政府的政策我想保險公司是配合他們來做這些事情你們能夠鼓勵嗎 因為 老實講 UBIKE 你看每一次中小學放學的時候 UBIKE 跑來跑去的 看了都很危險而且發生的 UBIKE 的車禍也是"},{"start":311.227,"end":335.92,"text":"也是常見的啦其實我們當然是支持這樣其實我們從一個推廣風險管理的概念的話我們絕對支持各地方政府推廣這些事情那我們就是我們的角色就希望站在我們的業者能夠盡量來協助這件事情讓他能夠完成各個地方政府想要推動這個政策的目標我想這個部分如果各個地方政府需要我們來配合的地方我們的保險局一定會督促我們的業者來配合這件事情"},{"start":336.311,"end":344.935,"text":"你要不要去推一下 請那個產險公司也幫忙推一下說鼓勵各縣市因為UPAC這個太方便了這個各縣市你們也push一下這我們可以來努力你們來努力一下雖然這個是新北跟桃園但是我覺得金管會的角色可以樂見其神推廣到所有的"},{"start":360.663,"end":385.963,"text":"各個縣市然後我們看另外一題那個聖石今夜襲警案這個昨天好像被搜索被什麼的那這裡面他就用保障5%到12%而且有總統去站台高官去站台這個跟今天的題目有點關係我就請教一下這個案子你怎麼看"},{"start":387.881,"end":405.471,"text":"我想剛剛提到就是假設以這個涉及到非法吸金地下匯兌這是我們銀行法上的重罪我剛剛已經提過了這是為什麼這兩個是特許業務非法吸金非特許行業不得吸收存款不得辦理匯兌我想這是很清楚所以像"},{"start":406.371,"end":429.929,"text":"今天的那個提案我們也提到就是說如果說把那個提高刑度那部分改成失職所得這部分我們是就不支持啦所以我們就還是維持原來的這個條文那當然對於任何吸金這個非法吸金我們都一定是站在一個你站不站成對非法吸金跟地下會對一起提高薪資"},{"start":430.929,"end":452.618,"text":"對 我想對於打擊犯罪如果有效的方法我們都支持不過這個還牽涉到比如說我們的司法刑度的量刑要跟其他的部會一起要一致性的考量這個要不要請法務部的廖參事上來表達一點意見我們如果提高刑度會不會有什麼你們法律上的一些漢格的地方有沒有"},{"start":455.242,"end":477.782,"text":"你要不要講一下 表示一下如果對非法吸金跟地下會一起提高薪資 你們態度怎麼樣跟委員說明一下 這是兩個不同的形態吸金的部分呢 這個打擊吸金呢本來就是我們的重點工作不過現在談的就是法律規定刑度的一個均衡性的問題"},{"start":479.028,"end":499.897,"text":"那現在吸金的部分目前依照銀行法的規定29條之一的規定它是以吸收存款跟吸收存款的性質相近所以它是以吸收存款論你回答問題因為我時間快到了就是你贊不贊成這兩個都要一起提高薪資就這樣子了贊不贊成"},{"start":503.144,"end":520.434,"text":"廢法吸金的我們的看法是說他要跟29條之一的收受存款的刑責性質相近應該是刑度要相當啦就是說所以你保留就對了啦這樣說快點啦就是說跟29條之一的刑度相當"},{"start":521.855,"end":528.937,"text":"那地下會對現在的刑度也是跟29條之一是一樣的所以你都保留就變這樣就是說在整個金融管理政策上以現在的詐欺案啦人民永遠都痛啊而且逃不回來啊你們應該要贊成提高刑責啦老實講那個我請金光會的本主委以現在的時空啊這個詐欺老是越打越詐啊這個情況之下"},{"start":549.674,"end":554.3,"text":"應該要贊成 最後一個問題講到穩定幣台灣版的穩定幣上路沒有"},{"start":563.258,"end":590.255,"text":"當然還沒有因為我們的法制還在目前你們第一階段也就開放銀行機構才可以發行穩定費用我們初步跟央行的共識是說因為我們剛開始基於這個比如說監理上的穩定我們會從因為其實我們的草案母法草案裡面是沒有限制只有金融機構我們是參考MECA的規定但是我們初步階段基於一個風險管理的角度我們會先由金融機構先"},{"start":590.555,"end":616.423,"text":"你能不能給我們一個時間表比如說半年內或者三個月以後看到台版的穩定幣正式上路那什麼時候一切順利一切順利的話像我們今年大概因為現在剛好正在比如說這個禮拜也會進行那個所謂的穩定幣在行政院政務委員主持的審查會我想已經第三次審查應該大家的共識度應該很高假設"},{"start":618.583,"end":643.589,"text":"這個會期能夠送進立法院的話就是還要通過行政院院會嘛送進立法院排進議程的話如果有可能在下個會期通過的話我們站在一些執法公佈的話最快是大概半年內要把它做完我覺得最快最快可能要到下半年才有可能法制作業完成所以大概最快可以期待明年的6月7月左右可以"},{"start":644.269,"end":665.431,"text":"台版的穩定幣這是什麼這要看就是下個會期是什麼時候對 就是順利嘛我說一切如果順利嘛對 就是因為就是等於說它出來等於說要立法通過執法公佈差不多要最晚半年之內公佈公佈完當然就可以開始所以到明年7月左右對 所以說這樣預期的話就是最快就看明年有可能完成立法然後就有可能"},{"start":665.891,"end":670.956,"text":"明年七月 因為我跟你講一個 我跟你講一個 比如說現在列出來 當然這個不是穩定品 你看 USDT 36天的年收益利率有6% USDT 90天的9%一出來賣得很好 一出來賣得很好 這個"},{"start":687.15,"end":713.031,"text":"這個當然這個穩定幣照理講是沒有利息的它是屬於衍生性商品啦對不對以這個來講的話其實這個需求已經在哪裡了市場在哪裡了我覺得我們的腳步可以快一點了是 我們其實站在我們行政機關的話我們就是很穩健的在推動因為這個我們儘管會能做我們現在都做了但其他的部分就要社會共識還有就是各個部會還有就是我們未來大院的審查好 謝謝"},{"start":715.12,"end":720.066,"text":"好 謝謝賴司保委員接下來請郭國文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d60de9ce3a45b8fd350bc060c38740833eab4060e56b945967fd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:36:11 - 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次長好委員 早安早喔那今天我們非常感謝昭緯他提供的這個題目運動平權我們也知道說2017年的時候運動平權的白皮書已經公報了那今天就是來檢視這樣的成果那我們看到的是運動部成立之後對運動平權的這個落實其實它不只是一個制度還包括是觀念跟教育跟文化嘛 對不對當然啦 這邊部分尤其是教育可能要跟教育部的合作啦"},{"start":50.928,"end":77.012,"text":"那預算資源的投入請問運動部有沒有這邊有一個大項針對這邊就是做一個整合性的預算的統計一下有沒有目前沒有專門針對去分辨這一筆預算或者整筆預算當中有多少的百分比是直接給女性我們有一些專案是在給比如說女性的研究科學研究女性的研究議題這個是有的"},{"start":77.392,"end":96.146,"text":"但是就我們補助一些計畫裡面說我們補助某一個協會它裡面有多少的錢是用在女性上面目前沒有好 謝謝市長我覺得這邊就是等一下我到最後的時候可能要做一個結論再說對於運動平權這部分因為運動部其實變成一個部了就是特別要針對以後我建議是每年要做一個運動平權的出版這樣一個報告書給委員會"},{"start":100.029,"end":126.308,"text":"因為我們才可以知道因為你剛所說指到性別其實還不只包括我等一下看到的部分有包括的是這邊的身障還有兒少跟高齡等等的離島這部分我覺得如果你把這地方拿出來的話呢就可以知道是說我們都可以跟國際間的這樣的一個天的這些條約都有相辟離嘛對不對這非常重要那另外我覺得更重要的是說有因為有些如果是不適當的這樣對待的話都還有一些申訴制度這是我等一下要去問的問題"},{"start":127.429,"end":156.575,"text":"那有些生殖住的包括像這個性騷擾等等的我們就看到歧視的問題好那我們繼續往下看剛剛我想問到就是市長啊就是在運動平權當中啊因為你也知道連兒少跟高齡啊目前的確是很大的差異性那你們有沒有針對包括像兒少跟高齡甚至一班診跟身障我們先問到這兩個部分好了有沒有做在運動的分齡的運動場的設施那甚至你們分了多少級那有沒有什麼數目"},{"start":157.335,"end":181.605,"text":"这个部分请说目前的运动场的分龄目前是没有的因为过去就基本上都是以运动中心的概念在建构一般人的运动只是可以从部分的空间特别去设计给儿少或高龄者那目前在身上这一块它一般是用通用设计的概念去处理可是对于特定的运动设备给身上人来说目前还是不足的"},{"start":182.905,"end":195.35,"text":"對 這就是很不足的地方我們甚至還知道上個禮拜的時候才知道說東京的有一個是聽奧嘛是 聽奧那我們現在知道是生長者我剛才查了一下資料目前全台灣有123萬人是 占我們的比例人口比例是5.2%是 那這個部分"},{"start":200.812,"end":222.226,"text":"甚至比原住民這些 包括都還要多嘛 對不對所以在這種情況之下 身障者我們尤其是 他們是在我們奪牌很多的希望 當然不是為了奪牌我也不能這樣講 但是我覺得因為要給他們一個平權 尤其是這個議題上面那這個部分你們提到是說有在路跑啦 自行車跟游泳對不對 可是其他部分的話你們有沒有未來的新的規劃 針對身障者"},{"start":224.255,"end":235.287,"text":"其他的項目是一定會陸續規劃的因為我們才剛剛開始運動部成立到現在也不過兩個多月我們特別為了身障的這件事情我們成立了適應運動師就是要專門針對這個族群的人做設計做規劃跟法令的一個制定我們希望"},{"start":244.116,"end":265.499,"text":"我們的障礙者可以透過運動的投入他們的生活當中讓他們的身體更健康讓他們更享受他們的人生好這就呈現出來今天有說適應運動科對不對適應運動師適應運動師到師等級就非常重要了希望說我就想說未來這一個部分的運動平權的報告真的年度初一定要出現這可以承諾嗎"},{"start":267.469,"end":285.462,"text":"可以 好 謝謝因為大家都關心這個問題還跟國際相對比較所以包括你們各種各類的分級所以你們現在也沒有分級就對了目前沒有那麼的清楚其實我覺得真的要這些部分要做分級出來才可以證到尤其是現在有所謂的全民運動署房署長也在那邊所以這邊覺得一定要去做下去我們也會監督在這個議題上面"},{"start":287.643,"end":301.385,"text":"好 那繼續我們看到的是因為違反運動平均其實會出現到好幾個問題剛剛有看到的是包括人員訓練的不足人員訓練的不足很重要的是前幾天剛好在上個禮拜或是11月中旬的時候看到一個很大的議題是"},{"start":302.987,"end":327.681,"text":"就是身障者人士到汐止的運動場 羽球場要去打球嘛結果就因為被運動員說你會有這個把場地弄壞甚至就把它拒絕掉啊這些部分就是非常重要的歧視性的待遇這種對待造成一個這種不平等的需要可是如果這個理由就是在於不夠的清楚就是包括志工的或是行政人員的管理員等等都不清楚"},{"start":328.061,"end":348.931,"text":"這一部分的是不是也可以等一下我提到的是要有一個包括的整體的一個怎麼樣的對運動的尤其是身障者的管理辦法是不是要有一個全國性的一個總則有沒有這個必要性啊我們應該會制定出一個指引出來委員剛剛講那個案例當我在報紙上看到那個報告的時候我自己本身也很難過怎麼會這個樣子呢"},{"start":350.091,"end":375.832,"text":"那絕對不是我們的本意我們也不希望看到這個樣子但是不表示我們就沒事了我們會持續的努力把這個地方的規則指引通告到全國去讓大家能夠去一體適用我們不希望因為設計的不好對 時間什麼時候做我們會立刻開始做 只是什麼時候做好因為我看到你們報告其實說是114年我可能以為是因為上個月的發生的事情所以今年年底一定會出來這樣的一個全國性的通用指引嗎"},{"start":380.204,"end":384.578,"text":"你們內部還沒有討論已經有了 只是還沒有已經有 但是沒有通讓全球全國嘛 對不對"},{"start":387.689,"end":414.611,"text":"應該是已經有了 可是我們必須要再一次去檢視一下它到底有沒有周延 或者它的密度到底夠不夠有些時候只是一般性 像高位的一個指引可能還不夠我們可能要那個質疑要到細緻的作業上面去可能才會到位而且必須要跟所有場館的管理員 甚至義工等等都必須要有這樣的概念 認真要張揚說我們是一個友善的 真正的一個環境這才是叫全民運動的一個達到目標 可以嗎"},{"start":415.111,"end":420.771,"text":"我们会持续的办理这方面的一个研习会来跟大家做教育"},{"start":421.277,"end":449.391,"text":"好 目標我覺得就是指引的公告我們先做第一步到年底的時候出現之後大概我想大概兩個月三個兩個月左右應該就是這個讓民眾或是管理員都應該清楚的知道這樣的一個概念好 那我們現在就往下看女性的部分在性別你平權那請問一下你要建構一個女性的友善職場那女性可以從事的運動產業我現在不是說哪個產業我是哪些職位別啊職位別 例如說在女人好了"},{"start":450.89,"end":465.376,"text":"職業別是不是從頭到尾的這個從頭的最上面的一個決策者如果是CEO像一個協會的CEO或是所謂的理事長然後到下面的中間的運動員行政員甚至包括運動產業裡面的體育用品人員是不是"},{"start":466.823,"end":488.477,"text":"目前在產業當中並沒有單獨去分這個是女性的產業那個是目前是沒有這樣去分但是在職業運動當中目前我們有女子女子的女子的足球公會我們的女子的籃球比賽他是他是在籃球協會裡面的他並沒有獨立出來一個籃球女子籃球協會目前還沒有"},{"start":489.754,"end":504.625,"text":"對現在產業當中我的意思是要講到特別講到的是當然一般的我們去從事到運動產業都是人也都比較少了啦那女性的可能也在少一些點只是我在想女性跟男性其實在除了生理的差別之外他們能力不差"},{"start":505.165,"end":522.605,"text":"有什麼差別 沒有錯但是在這邊呢我就想要下一個議題站職業跟業餘男女的選手這邊呢到底有薪水差異剛才說這邊女男跟男男嘛對不對我發覺像女男或是女足這邊甚至男足這邊通通都是企業贊助對不對是"},{"start":523.306,"end":547.733,"text":"那這個部分很重要的是 企業這部分的贊助是不是可以 尤其是我們剛才 我想要看到是一個很重要的議題喔就是在我們女足啦 她的排名啊 是是在前段班啦 是大概40名啊 是的那男足的大概就是160是後面的 沒錯 但是這個資源差距很大這部分 你們怎麼去說明 在 特別在說要找到性別平權的情況之下 尤其是女足的表現又是更優了 怎麼辦"},{"start":548.533,"end":560.154,"text":"女足一直是我們重點輔導一個項目因為女足要進入世界盃的距離遠遠的接近於男性的足球隊所以我們的確是重點在輔導我們的女子足球隊的培訓的工作"},{"start":560.503,"end":581.177,"text":"那你的資源到底要投多少 你現在看我們只看到 它只公布我們公告出來的是只有器材費並有完整的訓練跟旅費 但是呢非法的這邊所給的男族就是至少3億左右一年是3億左右這部分是不是可以投注到相對性的 尤其女族是有機會在全世界發光放熱"},{"start":582.216,"end":600.544,"text":"我们是这样子因为这个钱FIFA给的钱是直接给到足球协会去那是他们等于是他们的自筹款我们会透过我们后半段的一个法令的一个规定希望在经费分配当中能够达到五十五十的一个概念但是这是个理想短期间可能做不到但是我们会朝这个方面来努力"},{"start":601.297,"end":615.71,"text":"好 但是你趕快講是男主那女主也是這樣嗎不是 因為它直接給的就是FIFA給它不分男女對 但是那女 不分男女它不分男女直接給我們的主角社會FIFA就是希望說男女的一半一半對 因為FIFA就是男女主都在他們裡面 OK 好"},{"start":616.551,"end":644.537,"text":"希望說說你也要監督 因為明年要改選了嘛 對不對好 那這個好 周偉我就再繼續下去喔另外在這部分呢是看到的是在於好 性不是 最重要是在性別的這個平台資質以上邊喔是不是可以有一個制度是學習到美國的這個TitleTitle IXTitle IX的這個部分喔就是凡是接受到聯邦就是換成我們台灣就是國家經費的教育機構在任何場所當中都不應該因為性別而歧視是不是要可以揭示這樣的一個目標"},{"start":645.137,"end":649.772,"text":"我們是要往這個地方來努力的沒有錯的確我在美國讀書的時候Title IX就是我"},{"start":651.072,"end":676.599,"text":"花了很多時間在學習的內容1970年簽署的法案好那因為時間的關係我剛才也提到身障的部分因為他也是身心障礙者權益保障馬克國民體法都有在做這些事情就是請這樣說今年年底報告的報告今年年底就是那個指引要出現後來就是再把他的公告通知那最後的部分就在於要跟要講的是好我應該是講到是這個最後就希望在於說"},{"start":678.48,"end":687.49,"text":"市長再做一個公告就是未來就是每年年度的一個白皮書就是運動平權每年出版年度報告是會確定的嘛 對不對"},{"start":688.49,"end":710.498,"text":"我們會努力往那邊來作戰請大家針對的是兒少 身障跟性別職業編導這邊的部分的狀況去做我們會把這邊列入我們的報告內容我們的性別平權的這件事情我們會依據行政院的性別性評處的指引來製作我們的報告書的內容好 謝謝市長大家一起努力謝謝劉書斌 張偉質詢"}]}},{"id":"166086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6271bbf81627472a74cd0246cdf0bd28bab4060e56b945967047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:45:55 - 09:55:45","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T09:45:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T09:55:45+08:00","duration":590,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.333468750000002,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.57409375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.611593750000004,"end":38.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.28659375,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.37284375,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.79221875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.42846875000001,"end":105.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.05221875000001,"end":132.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.09471875,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.31659375,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.69596875000002,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.27284375000002,"end":185.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.52096875,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.21284375000002,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.04284375,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.53909375,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.76596875,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.62659375,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.82471875000002,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.47846875000002,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.93721875000003,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.85596875000002,"end":259.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.82159375000003,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":276.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.32534375,"end":287.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.74971875,"end":289.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.85909375,"end":293.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.41971875,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.67284375,"end":293.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.30096875000004,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.86971875,"end":310.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.82534375,"end":320.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.63534375,"end":318.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.40721875,"end":338.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.43784375,"end":363.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.14284375,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.92471875,"end":388.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.76346875,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.64471875000004,"end":397.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.01534375,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.43284375,"end":400.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.44471875000005,"end":407.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.96721875000003,"end":411.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.05971875,"end":411.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.01721875000004,"end":420.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.48409375,"end":427.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.95159375000003,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.91346875000005,"end":450.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.88034375,"end":457.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.7484687500000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我想請一下杜文貞次長好 我們再請次長委員好"},{"start":18.348,"end":33.507,"text":"市長好也謝謝主席今天特別安排了一個凍飽法的修法那因為這一次的修法當中的時候其實本席也提出了一個修法針對32條那對32條這部分的時候其實最主要是因為我們想把就是32條那麼第一"},{"start":39.219,"end":58.366,"text":"第一項第一款當中的一個有致死之魚這個部分把它給拿掉那為什麼會這樣子呢就是說之前在兩年前的時候新竹縣曾經發生過一個狀態就是有民眾發現有動物被虐待他就去蒐證蒐證了19段視頻後來舉報舉報之後呢然後縣政府的人也去了"},{"start":64.508,"end":73.384,"text":"然後去了之後呢去看一看之後的時候發現說好像這動物沒有受傷那牠怎麼樣子被那個虐待呢就說"},{"start":75.752,"end":102.484,"text":"踹打犬隻然後用繩索把嘴巴捆起來 把它吊起來把狗頭放在水裡面 壓到水裡面去19步視頻然後結果縣政府人去之後覺得說沒有受傷沒有致死之餘所以他沒有辦法沒路所以這次本溪人特別提出了一個修法的一個案件希望能夠把這個有致死之餘這邊把它拿掉"},{"start":103.484,"end":132.354,"text":"请问次长你针对这部分有没有什么看法谢谢委员提出来因为其实有时候是在判定的当下点没有看到伤害可是过程到底有没有造成虐待的事实我想应该是委员担心的所以我想对于这个所谓的虐待的定义这个我想我们应该要与时俱进来说其实在怎样的情形让现场重点是现场我们动物保护稽查人员到现场去的时候能够有更好的依据而不是依照个人觉得怎样应该要有更好的依据"},{"start":132.754,"end":147.652,"text":"所以就是说因为必须要与时俱进所以其实我们也认为这状态可是是因为像有些案子当中的时候比方说所谓的受伤他搞不好是内伤搞不好是怎么样而不是现场血流成河的状态所以说我们认为"},{"start":148.172,"end":168.308,"text":"比方說 如果說有些事主他以訓練之名行虐待之實這樣子一個狀態那我們希望就我們動保法修法的時候能夠讓我們的公權力其實有更好的一個切入的角度去保護我們的動物所以我們提出了這第32條的一個修法"},{"start":171.015,"end":179.073,"text":"請問農業部是不是也覺得就是有致死之魚這個部分是可以把它拿掉讓我們對動物的保護能夠有更完整"},{"start":180.465,"end":203.215,"text":"我想其實包括前面的不管是騷擾虐待傷害其實對動物都是一種不好的行為都應該要予以這個規範那至於有沒有至此之餘這件我覺得是可以來來討論因為其實只要有前面這個事實是造成動物所以說我們希望說這次修法當中的時候因為行政院版的動保法修法一直還沒有送進來我們也希望這個部分就是"},{"start":204.896,"end":220.646,"text":"農業部這邊能夠把我們這個有致死之魚這部分這幾個字把它給修掉納入院版一起來考量好不好謝謝委員的提醒我想這樣更完備謝謝次長那我接下來想請教一個部分就是因為最近日本他們的雄亥"},{"start":221.987,"end":246.329,"text":"就引起了很多的一個注意那麼他們對於整個日本的雄害的部分也開始有一些新的做法新的做法那針對這個日本的雄害的部分那我必須要考量到我們台灣其實也有一個喉害的一個狀態那上次在農業部夜報的時候部長特別提到如果說我們再不處理現在的喉害的問題"},{"start":247.23,"end":263.691,"text":"五年之後 猕猴就會進到我們市區去那針對這個部分的時候其實本席特別的關注那我們要怎麼樣來處理猴害的問題可不可以請次長具體回答好 謝謝委員提醒猴子確實是一個非常特別的野生動物因為牠聰明又領長類"},{"start":265.754,"end":292.742,"text":"那其實我們現在在處理的也不是只有猴害比方說最近處理非洲豬瘟的時候也有很多野豬的問題所以我們是一併把這些事情一起來想就是說因為它有在不同地區有不同樣態我們會推出不同的防治方法因為不只對農民或是對我們人類或是對疾病的傳播其實都是我們要考量的一些方向所以猴害的部分其實我們現在也在就幾個區域啦有些是因為是鄰近一些農作區"},{"start":293.742,"end":309.769,"text":"那有些是因為像高雄中山大學那邊因為是人親近的那個環境所以其實樣態不太一樣要怎麼去做我們會依照不同的地點按照農業部現在的一個統計估計就是說台灣大概現在這個猕猴造成我們的狀態大概有多少隻"},{"start":319.642,"end":338.176,"text":"我從媒體上面去查到一些資料從60萬到80萬都有人孤這麼大的一個量那這部分如果沒有好好去處理的時候我相信會造成我們很大的一個問題我們人跟野生動物當中的界線到底要在哪裡做一個分隔我覺得這部分農業部必須要很具體去"},{"start":339.697,"end":363.462,"text":"提出一個具體解決的方法那我們是不是能夠利用個絕育的控制來控制這個量可是要怎麼去做到這絕育控制這又是另外一個問題因為日本現在對於雄害的部分他們是用撲殺的方式喔現在開始用撲殺的方式而且條件其實也在慢慢的一個鬆綁可是我們對於侯害的部分我們要怎麼去做處理尤其剛剛次長提到說"},{"start":364.302,"end":382.041,"text":"猴子是靈長類的狀態的時候考量我們可能又會更多更深刻一點所以這部分也請農業部這邊很具體提出一個我們要怎麼樣解決猴害的問題既然部長都已經提到五年之後猕猴就會進入市區那我們現在不處理什麼時候要處理"},{"start":383.161,"end":385.524,"text":"所以我們希望這邊大概什麼時候可以提出個具體的一個做法"},{"start":403.835,"end":420.603,"text":"三個月我們來評估一下看包括剛剛那個多元的方式來做一下好三個月謝謝委員提醒三個月給我們一個怎麼樣解決台灣喉嗨作法因為在韓國他們有些是用無人機的方式然後去投一些相關的一些味道然後去"},{"start":421.953,"end":450.112,"text":"來控制猴害的一個產生那這邊也讓農業部這邊去做一個考量好 謝謝委員提醒那我最後這邊我特別問一個問題就是因為這一次的那個非洲豬瘟的時候其實我們也看到了很多的問題包括剛剛廚藝的部分已經要在2027年要解決那這已經有具體的狀態我這邊要特別提到一個就是經濟動物的獸醫的問題量完全的不足那我們目前針對這個部分有沒有什麼解決的方法"},{"start":451.373,"end":466.622,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為其實動物防疫確實不容易那特別是像有這種重大疾病的時候各縣市其實真的都很辛苦那我們現在已經有請各縣市去盤點他們的防疫受益師就是公職受益的缺口那我們希望能夠協助他們解決這樣的問題這是第一點"},{"start":467.382,"end":494.703,"text":"那第二點其實我們也引入公司協力啦因為其實有很多這個私人的動物獸醫師或者是退休獸醫師或是學校學校老師帶著學生其實也都是我們的協助的方式但是畢竟畢竟各縣市的公司獸醫確實是有缺口這個部分我覺得現在這部分尤其經濟動物的獸醫完全的不夠這是我們從整個農業部相關的一個資料去統計出來的狀態"},{"start":496.344,"end":513.563,"text":"目前台湾一位兽医师包含兽医组要照顾平均35.1万头经济组当然包括鸡鸭类可是数字都是非常非常的多的光是以牛的部分来讲就是日本的五倍台湾的一个兽医师要"},{"start":514.204,"end":533.232,"text":"照顧的一個那個經濟動物大概是日本的五倍之多這完全的不足那現在當經濟獸醫經濟動物的獸醫不足的時候我們很多時候就是用那個公職獸醫師這邊來補來補這樣的一個缺口可是我們也看到公職的獸醫師量也完全的不夠"},{"start":534.472,"end":551.843,"text":"量也完全不夠 我想次長應該很清楚知道這個狀態那從今年六月份的時候我們有開始實施公職獸醫師不開業獎金我想了解一下這個政策推出來到目前為止大概有多少公職獸醫師來申請這樣的一個不開業獎金"},{"start":555.386,"end":571.079,"text":"限職在職務上面都有領但是另外一個是我們因為提出公職獸醫師的不開獎金之後有52位公職獸醫回任了所以確實是有一些緩解這個需求但是其實還是不夠有52位獸醫師回任了"},{"start":571.499,"end":585.469,"text":"那我想這個獸醫師的部分尤其是經濟動物的獸醫師的部分的時候請農業部這邊來看怎麼樣子來把這個制度調好因為這是整個系統的一個問題那量完全的不夠我們要怎麼去補請農業部這邊好好的來解決這個問題謝謝委員提醒 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d615234077f884ce1482f8c8e0c6b9e8aeab4060e56b94596756ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:39:28 - 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謝謝昭偉我們先請我們國安局蔡局長請蔡局長好 局長早"},{"start":10.674,"end":31.284,"text":"在上個月那個紐西蘭海軍的軍艦通行通過我們這個台灣海峽的過程當中不但遭到中國的這個艦艇和飛機持續的監控那甚至有這個戰機進行所謂的這個模擬攻擊那這個議題在前天星期一的時候我也曾經跟國防部我們顧部長討論過"},{"start":32.825,"end":61.835,"text":"那除了要持續掌握周邊的這個情勢以外我們也想了解國安局對於這個情況怎麼評估共軍這些行為的相關意涵那因為我們中關過去這幾年不論是歐洲或印太地區的這些友好國家只要有美軍以外的這個軍艦通過台灣海峽的時候通常共軍也都會出動海空軍來做應對那但是從今年初以來共軍所採取的這個反應"},{"start":62.475,"end":90.714,"text":"似乎是越來越強烈那不但增加附近空域的活動還會搭配實施聯合戰備警巡那除了反制措施以外更是強硬的這個法律戰的作為那我想我們從近年來的相關案例來看中共對於外國軍艦通過台海所採取的應對措施是否有增強的趨勢那對於我們如何強化與友邦"},{"start":91.534,"end":114.28,"text":"相關的同盟國家共同因應的這個機制除了要降低風險更避免我方的這個管轄權受到侵蝕以外那這個部分我想請教局長您的看法您的評估為何謝委員提出對這問題的關切那管局這邊跟國防部我們有透過我們聯合情侶之間的系統掌握外建跟共建在我們周邊水域活動的一個狀態"},{"start":115.06,"end":126.691,"text":"那以今年來講大概目前已經有8個國家有12次的通過台海的相關的一個活動那8個國家包括到的有美國日本加拿大澳洲紐西蘭"},{"start":129.707,"end":152.984,"text":"越南跟那個英國跟法國那12次裡面還有包括有兩次是聯合行動的包括美國跟那個英國的聯合行動那以及加拿大跟澳洲的聯合行動所以可以看得出來國際社會美國友盟對於台海區域的和平穩定非常的重視那也透過這一類的自由航行活動來表達他們具體的行動那中共在這些外界"},{"start":153.925,"end":172.315,"text":"通過台海過程當中它基本的原則就是逢箭必更那一定會派出相關的對應的海上兵力來做必要的跟監的活動那另外有時候也會動員剛剛委員所提到的空中的兵力來做一些模擬的攻擊來表示它在台海地區軍事上的一個相關的一個軍事的存在跟主導權"},{"start":173.095,"end":192.37,"text":"那這部分也跟委員報告我們跟國際友盟也都有一些相關的情資交換那包括在外建通過台海過程當中共建的活動型態我們跟國際友方都有一些相關的情資交流那讓國際友方在進入到台海周邊水域的時候大概都可以掌握到中共活動的一些相關的樣態"},{"start":193.01,"end":209.436,"text":"那從剛剛跟委員報告的過程當中你可以發現到今年有8個國家跟12次的通過台海活動那代表這些國際友門並沒有因為中共相關逢見必更的動作而有所退卻那持續的表達他們對於台海核穩的重視好 那應該我們國安局都在掌握當中"},{"start":211.416,"end":237.771,"text":"另外在上週有一篇報載內容寫到中共近來在中國駐東京大使館增加國台辦官員的進駐對外雖然維持外交官身份但實際上並非單純負責外交的工作除了監控在日本的台灣僑民還有民眾還有商務客群同時也對日本涉台活動的情資進行收集及回報"},{"start":238.411,"end":264.725,"text":"甚至在台灣觀光客偏好的這個泰國、曼谷還有清邁等地也都逐步的納入這樣的一個任務編制那我想請教局長有關這一篇報導的內容是否為真那國安局有沒有相關的這個掌握而這個國台辦由這個外交系統把持與這個駐外管處配合的這種相關的行為對台灣來說是否有任何的風險存在"},{"start":266.606,"end":286.276,"text":"對 剛剛委員提到 事實上中共的駐外管處 它確實有時候會有安排一些涉台系統或處理涉台業務的人力那以委員剛所提到的特定國家來講 我們長年的觀察大概平均都會有兩位到四位的中共人員在駐管裡面負責的是涉台的業務那這個部分我們都有相關的掌握"},{"start":287.476,"end":313.258,"text":"國際友方有交換相關的情資委員所提到的是應該要注意的是中共這些駐外人員負責涉台業務的會不會在當地透過一些民間的團體或組織來分化我們的橋界或是來透過各種的接觸分化我們跟國際友門官方或非官方各種的往來活動這部分我們要是有一手的情資的話也會跟我們的外館的"},{"start":314.159,"end":341.308,"text":"相關外交部的官員來做相關情緒的交流那一起來評估相關的狀況也做必要回應的一個動作我們也希望說一定要保護我們國人的一個生命的安全那在這個美中對抗的格局下美日安保和台海安全無疑是這個目前的焦點那我們從國安局的這個報告當中也看到近年來這個中共為了讓高市首相撤回這個"},{"start":342.208,"end":361.814,"text":"所謂台海有事說 透過各種層面的施壓手段那可以製造兩國的這種緊張的氣氛面對中國一連串的這種文攻武嚇日本政府不但堅定立場也引發日本社會高度的一個反感衝突似乎還沒有緩解的這種趨勢那在"},{"start":365.075,"end":381.154,"text":"這種情況之下我們推測接下來中國可能會擴大軍事的威脅再次發動大規模的軍演由於共軍在年底通常會有考核演訓確實也不排除會在特定的時間將這些例行性的演訓拼湊來發動"},{"start":384.778,"end":399.844,"text":"就此我想請教局長依照我們目前的掌握共軍在年底發動軍演的機率高不高地點會選擇是在台海或是東海搭配的宣傳站主軸會不會又是訴諸於民族主義"},{"start":401.037,"end":429.012,"text":"跟委員說明一下委員的問題意識裡面大概有兩個部分一個部分是中日的部分確實像委員所提到的中共持續的透過複合式的威脅在對日本加壓剛剛在口報過程當中也跟各位委員先進說明的是中共在加壓過程當中它還是保留了對日本溝通的管道所以可見它還是有在做某種程度的風險控管避免情勢失控或升溫這大概是第一部分跟委員再進一步說明的"},{"start":429.432,"end":444.327,"text":"那第二部分委員關切的是在年底之前那會不會有一些比較大型的軍事演訓活動那我記得在過去也曾經跟委員針對這個議題來做討論因為每年大概在十月到十二月的階段就是他年度的考核的一個演訓的一個熱"},{"start":445.888,"end":473.941,"text":"很熱門的一個季節所以中共只要把它例行性的包括聯合戰略警訓或是包括到它的沿海長訓的這些活動做個組合再給個特定的演習科目的話它就可以變成是一個對台針對性的演習所以這部分我們確實要料底重寬持續來注意有沒有相關活動的變化那也跟委員說明一下目前中共的水上兵力目前為止 今天早上為止它有四個編隊是在西太平洋周邊水域活動的那我們都有嚴密的監控"},{"start":474.321,"end":497.854,"text":"那也跟國防部還有其他我們的國安情報機關會注意相關的狀況假如有必要的話也會啟動我們跟國際友盟情資交流跟合作包括科技情報的交換那避免中共在這個階段委員所擔心的年底之前有任何新興的動作好 謝謝局長 那局長您先請回好 謝謝委員我們再請我們家榮部長請林部長"},{"start":501.397,"end":524.743,"text":"部長早 委員好好 部長延續剛才這個中日之間的關係的議題我們從這個高市首相上個月提出這個台海有事說那到上個禮拜11月26號引用舊金山這個合約的內容表示日本已經放棄對台灣所有權利那無權認定台灣法律地位這樣的說法正是這個台灣定位"},{"start":525.743,"end":550.942,"text":"台灣地位未定論的核心隨之當然也引起中國外交部的強烈反彈剛剛美林委員也大概詢問了我們蔡局長我想請教部長如何解讀高市首相舊金山合約的相關意涵是否也能夠藉此來判斷日本將定調台灣問題國際化同時也否定中共對台灣的相關敘事"},{"start":553.128,"end":571.262,"text":"對 我想因應中共的三個八十週年這個法律戰它背後當然是在鋪陳以武力犯台的法理基礎所以我想我們外交部在這一年來也積極在國際上除了去針對聯大2758號"},{"start":574.444,"end":590.139,"text":"絕一文的解釋 中共的扭曲跟我們的得到各有盟的支持以外就是針對這幾個涉及到包括舊金山合約的一個簽訂跟效力的問題"},{"start":592.113,"end":618.842,"text":"高志早苗首相在國會正式的對日本的立場很清楚的表達因為在舊金剛合約之後日本就放棄了對台灣的主權他也沒有這個地位去主張台灣這個主權的問題我想就這一點上當然也某種程度來講為什麼引起中共這麼大的反彈"},{"start":620.066,"end":628.609,"text":"那就代表就是在這個之前其實中華人民共和國他跟台灣他並沒有在國際法上所謂的一個他這個擁有台灣的這個主權這一點當然又刺痛了中共方面那對於台灣來講我們中華民國就是台灣這個在整個後來的政治發展裡面"},{"start":649.488,"end":666.082,"text":"我們是有一套對於台灣地位的看法兩岸互不隸屬之外呢台灣經過一個民主化那中華民國這政府的一個在台灣的一個做一個主權國家他具備"},{"start":667.659,"end":676.208,"text":"一切的條件以這個方式來就是進行對於我們台灣一個民主化主權屬於國民全體這個論述是"},{"start":680.751,"end":702.092,"text":"不是停留在1951年舊金山合約簽訂的當時所以這個我們也不是說就支持所謂台灣地位未定論那個是那個時空環境下有這樣的一個國際的條約是有其效力那所以呢對於先前中共或是有一些人所主張的開鑼宣言"},{"start":703.013,"end":720.275,"text":"以及這個波斯坦公告那樣一個政治性的宣言我想很清楚的舊金山合約在這個問題上已經做了一個條約有效率的一個決定那日本是遵守的"},{"start":720.998,"end":746.112,"text":"好那我再一個最後一個問題我想部長您7月曾經突破這個相關的限制率團訪問日本那日本方面在9月有農林水產副大臣那10月有環境副大臣來台訪問再加上一則是在2017年曾有這個總務副大臣來訪那如果在中日緊張可能要持續一年才能穩定的情況下我想請教部長"},{"start":746.792,"end":760.106,"text":"那未來一年內我們要推動台日雙方高層互訪的這個機會就共同關心的相關議題要進行交流還有沒有可能在升高層級有相關的這個部會所長會有來訪的情形"},{"start":762.594,"end":782.668,"text":"我們當然是期待台日的一個關係特別是往來能夠正常化所以我想包括我們台美關係最近大家看到川普簽署的台灣保證實施法案"},{"start":783.956,"end":810.557,"text":"那同樣台日之間的關係也逐步建立起正常的互動所以有關於過去可能一些自我的設限那經過我想這個高市早苗首相他的領導那我們當然也會期待台日之間的關係可以正常的往來那我們期待啦好 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謝謝主席那先有請局長 謝謝請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 沈委員長好 局長好那這個呢我前面先問一個問題就是說因為之前國安單位有特別針對一些這個有資安風險的這個APP然後有公佈嘛那我相信接下來這一個不管是速發部啦或者說內政部跟打詐有關的啦應該也會有所回應啦"},{"start":30.952,"end":54.98,"text":"所以我覺得國安局起這個頭我覺得是蠻重要的因為告訴大家有這個資安的疑慮我想知道的就是接下來因為所謂的資安疑慮不一定是跟中國有關它有時候可能是別的APP但是可能有中資在背後挹注又有可能說可能中國它今天是跟第三方的廣告公司透過它去買這些APP相關取得的資料都有可能"},{"start":56.1,"end":83.209,"text":"剛好最近這個是11月的時候所發生的事情就是這個高德地圖高德地圖可以在台灣導航國台辦還特別強調它喜聞樂見因為現在越來越多人來使用的狀況之下第一個就是它對台灣的街景可以蒐集得更多這是第一點第二個就是因為這跟Google Map一樣你只要使用這些地圖基本上就一定可以它一定要取得你的定位不然它怎麼知道你要再往哪裡移動"},{"start":83.909,"end":99.404,"text":"所以你看它在這個右邊這邊我有截圖就是它在隱私權的這個部分它對於位置 瀏覽記錄等等之類的都會去取得所以它背後又有這一個中國國家航天局的這一個北斗系統然後後面又有阿里巴巴"},{"start":99.904,"end":125.762,"text":"所以基本上它跟這一個共產黨的關係是非常的密切我知道其實相關類似高德地圖的我看也不少很多我們一開始在挑選最嚴重的這期管的時候我們接下來的下一步會是什麼然後跟這種地圖相關的因為它現在還沒有累積到那麼高的使用但它一旦累積起來我們那時候再說有資安風險的時候怕又太晚不知道對於這方面目前國安局的規劃是什麼"},{"start":126.755,"end":148.715,"text":"好 這一部分跟委員說明一下那就像委員剛剛一開始所提到的事實上本局對於中共製的這些APP還有包括我們前陣子針對中共的生成式AI的模型都有做過相關的嚴密的一個治安的檢測那後面發現的一個問題就在於說這些的軟體事實上都要求使用者過度的授權"},{"start":149.375,"end":174.876,"text":"那來讓這些軟體可以來擷取使用者包括他的所在的位置相關的一個過去的一個通訊或是消費的習慣來收集相關資料那比較讓我們擔心的是這些資料因為會回送到他母公司在中國大陸的資料庫那再加上根據中國大陸的法律規範包括國家情報法國家安全法那相關的企業個人都必須要把這些資料提供給政府相關"},{"start":175.396,"end":198.764,"text":"所以我們從這個角度來考量是認為說這些中國製的APP或軟體都有相當高的治安風險那雖然國安局不是業管機關但是基於國安的角度我們還是一波一波的把這些有治安風險的中製的產品來告訴社會大眾請大家進行必要的檢視那也跟委員說明事實上政府內部跨部會也有在討論後續下一步來怎麼來做"},{"start":201.246,"end":216.525,"text":"因為這部分還在內部包括法規的研議以及後續實際措施的一個評估那我不適合公開的說明但有在做下一步的行動的一個規劃跟評估沒問題因為剛剛這一個局長有提到我覺得有幾個關鍵第一個就是過度授權這是個問題"},{"start":217.786,"end":236.628,"text":"所以在這個不管是抖音等等之類它有過渡授權它已經拿過多的根本就一些不相干的資料另外它又會有冒用的問題所以可能會被拿來詐騙什麼等等之類的但是因為我今天為什麼特別把高德地圖提出來就是因為它不一定有過渡授權的問題但它跟國安的風險卻特別的高"},{"start":237.048,"end":265.679,"text":"因為如果譬如說你去回報說這個街景的問題又或者說你去回報國人的位置其實對共產黨來講能夠取得位置是非常重要的一件事所以它即使沒有到過度的授權但它在第三個剛剛講國安相關的這一個它可能比其他的風險要來得更高所以我覺得這一方面有可能在下一波的時候我們或許也應該要考慮就是說這一類的APP所造成的風險跟前面公布那一波又不太一樣不一樣在哪裡可能也要跟國人說明"},{"start":265.879,"end":293.681,"text":"我想這大概有兩個層面的問題一個部分是關於這個APP或軟體本身的資安風險的問題但第二面向事實上也是剛剛跟委員說明跟報告的我們更關切的是在法治法規面事實上各國產製的這些資安通訊的軟體多少都有一些收集各自的問題但是在我們的一般的西方國家以及我們民主國家都有一些GDPR的對於各自保護的相關法律規範"},{"start":294.381,"end":315.521,"text":"可是在中國大陸來講它的法律規範反倒是授權政府可以去廣收或是要求個人企業來提供這些資訊供政府來運用那這是第二面向的問題是中國相關產製的APP的風險根源是在於對 它的國家法規的問題所以這個我就覺得說反正我們在接下來一定還會再遇到這類的問題那我們就再繼續持續的來關心這個議題謝謝"},{"start":320.486,"end":321.026,"text":"接下來是要問部長謝謝局長接下來有請林部長"},{"start":333.43,"end":362.171,"text":"委員好部長好那這個呢今天也有看到這個消息就是剛剛前面我記得美林委員的時候你也有提到就是川普今天簽署了這一個這個Assurance Implementation Act是那這當然是很重要啦我覺得這是一個非常重要的突破是否可以跟國人說明說這樣的一個突破的進程還有以及我們未來的下一步的規劃是什麼是這個台灣保證實施法案的簽署生效是川普政府"},{"start":363.012,"end":386.547,"text":"第一份通過的友台法案所以對先前有一些質疑台美關係的我想這個就不攻之破先前的軍售也是如此這個都代表台美關係穩健的發展那這個是重要性就是說建立在台灣保證法那個時候是台灣旅行法的基礎上那大家就是希望正常的往來包括"},{"start":388.708,"end":408.943,"text":"護法以及到彼此的機關去洽談公務比如說到聯邦的機構或者是到我們的代表處那以前有一些自我設限那事實上在台灣旅行法之後這個都是朝開放的方向那先前就是有關這個交往準則"},{"start":410.004,"end":434.663,"text":"那當然在川普總統第一任的時候其實蓬佩奧國務卿也澄清把他解除掉可是拜登政府後來又恢復了一些交往的準則那當然現在能夠正式的透過立法就是把這個鬆綁掉對不對 台美關係的正常發展是一個非常重要的一步"},{"start":435.504,"end":449.543,"text":"我覺得這很重要就是說它是逐步檢視每五年也要一次這種逐步檢視的方式其實是比較好的 也比較緩和對國際也能夠比如說友邦如果其他的國家也能夠跟著美國的腳步來做這件事情的話對台灣的這一個幫助也很大"},{"start":451.846,"end":470.671,"text":"那我看到其實呢這不是只有在美國嘛在這一次這一個部長到歐洲其實蠻多趟的其實也都是在突破相關的限制因為我自己在歐洲也跑了幾次我也都知道部長其實去了不少地方然後很多地方都特別的低調也都是很希望就是說能夠在顧外交之餘然後但是又不要去驚動"},{"start":471.751,"end":497.822,"text":"免得到最後造成不必要的困擾但是如果像這樣的法案在各國能夠慢慢開始推出的時候我覺得對台灣當然是重要但反過來講就是因為我們昨天國防的預算這一個1.25兆8年1.25兆在程序委員會被擋下來這件事情又有可能被操作說你看這個台灣其實這個根本就沒有要防衛的決心等等這個聲音一定還是會被熊貓派把它弄出來"},{"start":498.482,"end":509.18,"text":"所以一方面川普簽了這個法案能夠穩固這個台美的關係但內部一定也有人又把這個國防的預算拿出來又要做一些文章這個在外交上會不會形成一些困境"},{"start":510.925,"end":519.55,"text":"當然會有一些可能負面的解讀那我們當然也期待就是立法院可以讓他盡快的進入程序委員會進行實質的討論因為這是一個8年的特別預算雖然是1.25兆但是他經過8年之後那也在我們的公債法的規定下來進行所以至於做實質的內容哪一個項目有意見我想只要進入程序委員會才能夠進行實質討論"},{"start":537.299,"end":557.173,"text":"我們也當然會跟美國等友盟做溝通我相信大家也很關心在野黨下一步怎麼去來審查國防特別預算我想立法院總是會有一個過程我想是經過持續的協調能夠往前送到程序委員會之後盡快的審查跟通過"},{"start":563.857,"end":581.152,"text":"對啦 我覺得這是一個過程這句話其實蠻重要的我們對於這些友邦或者支持台灣的國家應該要讓他們知道這是一個過程照理說這個過程它會有一些攻防不要讓這些攻防的這些素材反而變成對方去操作這個疑台論這個在外交上一定是有所不利"},{"start":582.132,"end":597.651,"text":"回到今天的題目因為今天題目是在講說這一個美中這個通話當然我們沒有通話的譯文所以很難去評論所以我們只能從外觀兩個國家自己去宣布到底講了什麼東西但很明顯中國所公布的跟美國所公布的這兩邊是對不起來的"},{"start":599.233,"end":617.408,"text":"中國向來其實都很喜歡在這個事後的不管是他的新聞稿等等之類做這些加油添醋這個事情就連結到我們跟日本之間的關係因為最近依照高市早苗的這個說法他其實是說他沒有直接的立場去認定台灣的法律地位"},{"start":617.828,"end":635.523,"text":"所以中國現在開始展開了這個法律戰他針對這個甚至很多國人在開玩笑說這個馬關條約是不是又要持續了這個舊青山合約為什麼失效我們現在外交部針對這個法律戰的準備如何因為畢竟這有可能就是2758號是上一個法律戰的一個戰場這個看起來又會是下一個戰場我們這方面的準備是否足夠"},{"start":639.827,"end":658.75,"text":"是 報告委員我在去年擔任外交部長之後我就注意到中共是把今年當作所謂30個80年那這個是一個法律戰它在一方面也是在鋪陳無力犯台以外也是在做認知戰所以我們已經都準備好了所以包括我今年在7月7號受邀"},{"start":659.611,"end":684.864,"text":"世界法學會跟美國法學會的亞太論壇我有發表一個主題演講我們就針對這個歷史敘述還有甚至它的法律涉及到的這些包括舊青山合約已經做了我們的官方的一個解釋這個也呈現在我們外交部的網站上那也跟美國做了很多的溝通所以後來也有一些人在這個去探尋美國國務院還有AIT的意見他們在第一時間都對於中共的這個"},{"start":689.406,"end":712.281,"text":"就是錯誤的這個詮釋在第一時間就做了回應那現在就是因為日本是高市早苗首相在國會在這個質詢的時候算是官方的很正式的回答那這個剛好中共當然很生氣可是也置破其短因為就是他們想要一個錯誤的歷史敘事來進行法律戰結果被戳破了"},{"start":713.521,"end":740.029,"text":"所以說舊青山合約的這個時候日本就是依國際法他完全放棄對台灣的主權之後他沒有地位去做怎麼樣的主張那這個就回來代表到這個時間其實中華人民共和國是1949年10月1號成立那他為什麼要去連結1945年所謂3個80年他就是在補這一段就是對中國的代表權"},{"start":741.069,"end":765.171,"text":"那我想這個當然他想要去大外宣結果被有點是說被戳破了那當然惱羞成怒可是現在的這種過度反應也置步其短所以外界有很多的討論才理解到原來有這一段歷史那中共他說他不承認我想這個國際條約那他要去面對說實在的所謂的一忠於否"},{"start":766.092,"end":790.341,"text":"很多在當時是在1971年聯合國2758號決議才有所謂一中兩中或一中一台所以中共的一個歷史敘述他去想要回去重新去扭曲歷史為其所用這個我們也開始再次暴露中共的一個所謂的混合權他全面的這種混合戰他的一個整個在對台灣的一個"},{"start":794.888,"end":801.38,"text":"這個威脅那我們都有做好準備所以在二七五八號決議上我想二七五八號決議經過IPAC在去年來台灣包括委員有參與"},{"start":805.216,"end":832.51,"text":"有一個範本然後就領接了世界各國的國會議會都通過這個參考修正之後的版本從澳大利亞到這一個荷蘭 捷克 英國到歐洲議會那今年的重點就進一步發展到所謂的台灣地位的這個歷史文件的一個解釋那我相信這樣一個過程裡面日本言所當言特別是高市長苗首相他都是被動的"},{"start":833.47,"end":858.242,"text":"但是他被問到他必須誠實以對這個就是我們可以看到其實歷史或真理也是越辯越明對 我覺得這個真的很重要就是剛剛部長提到的其實速度就是我們第一時間比如說今天美國的回應 歐盟的回應比如說日本的回應它其實雖然其實是被動的但因為平常我們都有在交往平常都有在論述這個時候它第一時間就能夠去產生有利於台灣的回應"},{"start":859.062,"end":877.203,"text":"你看台灣人其實花了可能20年的時間才發現九二共識根本是一個有問題的不存在的但是台灣人可能只花了一年多的時間就已經跟國際的友邦開始講說2758是有問題的所以這個速度只會越來越快尤其是在網路世界所以針對現在可能要講舊金山合約了以後可能"},{"start":877.543,"end":900.203,"text":"又会有下一个法律战如果我们都可以做好准备然后所有的国家在外交人员的努力之下能够快速的回应这个对台湾确实是有利但回到刚刚中间我提到的就是像这种依台论还有我们现在立法院的作为很容易会让一些依台论的资长会去减慢那个速度那这个可能是在外交上我们必须要去谨慎跟拿捏的那因为时间的关系我可能就先到这边谢谢部长谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6e22607d41e13629e82f8c8e0c6b9e8aeab4060e56b9459678053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:27:49 - 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局長10月底繼釜山慘喜會之後11月14號川普跟習近平再次的通電話就是說用電話會談之後其實兩方就像剛剛局長所提到其實他們對於發文的內容其實是顯然有很大的"},{"start":34.43,"end":52.035,"text":"差异就是各自表述那居然刚才你有所提到就是说像川普他这个推文就是会谈之后他的推文其实最主要是提到的就是无恶的问题还有这个经贸的这个磋商可是我们他是完全没有提到台湾的议题可是我们看到中国他"},{"start":53.055,"end":73.526,"text":"不但是沒有提及這個經貿的議題還強調就是說台灣回歸是戰後國際秩序重要組成的部分還提到就是說美方理解這個台灣的問題是對中國的這個重要性那當然在第一時間不管是行政院或是外交部還有"},{"start":74.006,"end":83.678,"text":"陸委會其實我們第一時間都有做出了這個反擊像左院長他有提到了中華民國台灣是一個完完全全主權獨立的國家2300萬的國人沒有回歸的這個選項"},{"start":89.125,"end":93.428,"text":"所以我想請教局長這會不會是就是記這個中共的扭曲了這個二戰文件還有2758號決議文之後呢會不會就是未來一個他這一個當然就是認知作戰那會不會回歸啦或者是說戰後次序論這個部分會變成以後續戰的一個主軸好面對中國這種"},{"start":111.978,"end":115.54,"text":"言論他現在提出來了台灣這個回歸的問題還有這個戰後次序的這個議題會不會就是成為他新一波的認知作戰的主軸那我們要如何防止中國這一類的輿論的這個操作 請問局長"},{"start":129.669,"end":149.695,"text":"我想這部分我們確實要特別來關注那今年大概中共的涉台論述它主要重點是圍繞在所謂的三個八十週年的一個相關的論點那也就是所謂的抗戰勝利八十週年聯合國成立八十週年以及台灣光復八十週年那相關論述大概有兩個目的一個目的是去抹滅中華民國在二戰的一個貢獻"},{"start":150.455,"end":171.051,"text":"那第二部分第一是在凸顯中國在二戰之後他在所謂的國際秩序的重塑過程當中扮演一個重要的角色那我們可以看到這兩個論述事實上跟國際的事實發展是完全背道而馳的那也沒有去正視到台海現狀目前唯一的政治現實就是台灣跟中國互不隸屬的政治現實"},{"start":171.812,"end":198.602,"text":"那台灣跟國際社會要維持台海現狀所要維護的就是台灣跟中國互不隸屬的這個政治現實所以可能後續我們還是要去注意到中國在這一波的涉台論述的操作過程當中那會不會再透過這樣子扭曲或是故意的去誤解相關的國際的文件或條約來強化他剛剛的相關的一個論述來延伸到今年下半年對於三個八十週年操作的一個"},{"start":199.302,"end":214.097,"text":"基調跟主軸那這部分我們會繼續來注意那假如有在網路上的認知作戰操作的話那當然也跟委員報告過我們的系統都有完整的一個查找跟溯源的一個機制那會做必要的即時通報相關部會來做事實的澄清"},{"start":214.757,"end":229.1,"text":"是 我們也是擔心是說他這個言論這些所謂的認知作戰會變成就是說像香港之前有所謂的回歸他現在把台灣也認為說台灣其實就是戰後之後的一個回歸的這個問題這部分可能我們相關的國安單位要特別來做這個留意那再來還有就是說對於這個高速掃描在11月26號他有表示"},{"start":241.943,"end":263.58,"text":"日本已經在舊金山合約中放棄對台灣的所有權利跟許可權因此沒有立場認定台灣的法律地位可是這個論述好像又惹毛了這個中國像這個中國的這個發言人發言人毛寧他就在28號的時候就有提到了中方從來沒有接受過這個舊金山合約像這新華社他在12月1號也有發文他是強調舊金山合約違反了1942年的聯合國家"},{"start":270.885,"end":279.19,"text":"宣言中聯合國這個國家宣言中關於禁止以這個敵國單獨構合的這個這個規定所以這種種的這個論述他說他們是不承認這個舊金山合約那當然我看看最近這幾天其實"},{"start":290.297,"end":296.679,"text":"國內有很多的這個講法就被提出來了說你中國你不承認究竟商合約難道我們要回到馬關條約嗎 類似這種論述出來所以我不曉得我們不是很清楚是中國對這個部分的論述的這個操作局長您是怎麼看呢 您是怎麼看這個他一直 他從過去到現在其實已經無數次在強調就是說他們其實不接受究竟商合約"},{"start":319.327,"end":337.166,"text":"我想跟委員做個說明中國在理解整個相關的對台政策它有它自己的一套論述也就是一中的原則當然對於一些國際的條約或國際的理解還有共識它就站在自己的立場來做相關有利於自己的詮釋以及片段式的來選擇相關的條約來支撐自己的論點"},{"start":340.109,"end":365.39,"text":"那所以我想跟委員說明的是事實上沒有必要去陷入中國的這一種相關法理的與會的爭辯回到剛剛跟委員說明的重點是在於說就政治現實來講那台海的現狀就是兩岸互不隸屬那這是一個政治的事實那中國再去找相關的對他有利的相關的條約或是相關的文件來證明他的立場也不會改變到目前台海"},{"start":366.816,"end":375.582,"text":"兩岸互不隸屬的這個政治現實所以我想不必流入他的相關的這種法理的語彙而且是片段式的去找出有利於他自己的論點"},{"start":377.077,"end":405.354,"text":"是 當然因為它以中國來講的話它是竭盡所能的去扭曲所有的這些國際上的這個合約只是說我們隨時就是要做出一些澄清跟一些說法尤其是其實兩國是互不律屬的這個論述必須要做這個加強對 OK好 謝謝 謝謝局長局長先請回再來我們請外交部林部長有請林部長"},{"start":410.959,"end":426.85,"text":"委員好部長好 部長您剛剛在這個專題報告裡面有提到就是說上個禮拜賴清德總統宣布政府將在未來的八年要投入新台幣一兆兩千五百億元作為國防特別預算那對AIT或是美國國務院或是說美國的這個眾議兩院的議員其實都表達了這個支持"},{"start":435.556,"end":442.124,"text":"尤其是12月1號,我看到很多美國的國會兩院議員都有在推特上發文表示對這個特別預算的支持,而AIT也認為說這是對全球和平與繁榮作出的關鍵,而且有必要的投資。"},{"start":455.32,"end":480.746,"text":"12月1號大家都樂見其成大家都覺得說台灣這個是展示了這個要取得關鍵不對稱作戰能力的一個很明確的決心可是12月2號的中午在立法院的程序委員會然後在野黨就把這個特別預算給封殺了所以我們美國盟友會如何看待我們立法院組黨國防預算的這個行為"},{"start":483.227,"end":511.249,"text":"有嗎 有接到任何的電話嗎當然立法院沒有把它排入議程這個當然會給國際一個錯誤的訊息當然政府也要積極跟在野黨在座溝通我們也期待盡快能夠進入程序委員會然後去審查預算 來加速通過"},{"start":512.608,"end":538.557,"text":"OK 部長你剛才說要跟在野黨做積極的溝通在那之前的話我們有做過類似的溝通如果說已經溝通完畢還刻意的阻擋的話這是怎麼樣的一個心態呢真的是會讓國際盟友會認為說台灣真的是沒有自我自我強化防衛的決心這個有事先跟在野黨溝通過嗎"},{"start":540.322,"end":557.826,"text":"因為這是屬於國防部所提出的預算我們外交部就全力配合至於說對外的溝通我們也會跟國防部來這個進一步協調因為我是看到您的報告裡面有特別提到大家都美方真的是"},{"start":558.286,"end":576.013,"text":"對於我們這樣子就是說有編列這個特別預算其實是對台灣是暫許也表示表達了這個歡迎那也知道就是說12月2號就是昨天政區委員會呢就在野黨就封殺了所以這個部分的話我想跟在野黨要有更多的這個溝通"},{"start":577.413,"end":598.283,"text":"我也希望在野黨研討了解,其實台灣處在這種國際動盪的局勢,尤其台灣的地理位置,其實一直都是處於比較危險的地理位置,所以我們就覺得說,我們有一個敵國在虎視眈眈,我們自我防衛這個能力,其實這事應該是大家要團結一致來做支持的,"},{"start":602.125,"end":625.981,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說這部分的話不管外交部也好國防部也好就是說我們的這個國安單位都一起要來努力然後讓促成這個這個國防預算能夠輸你的這個過關跟委員報告不管是美國對台的軍售已經有正式通過還有有關於台灣保證實施法案的簽署這個"},{"start":627.882,"end":641.808,"text":"對於過去有一些人在質疑台美關係或者是川普政府對台灣是不是有不同的做法我想這個也都可以已經很好的去澄清台美關係還是相當的穩定而且溝通很順暢未來也會大家攜手合作在國防方面去加強我們這個自我防衛的能力跟決心"},{"start":654.537,"end":682.079,"text":"OK 部長剛有提到確實是最近我也看到在野黨也刻意的操作這個不信任美國就是以美論的這個部分我想這個部分的話真的作為一個不管在野黨也好或是人黨我想對外應該是要團結一致我想說這個行為是不是讓真的是讓國際友人也在看笑話了面對自己國家的這個國防的這個安全居然是用這種操弄方式真的是很不可取好 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謝謝 我們麻煩法務部及司法院請部長和副秘書長"},{"start":23.799,"end":46.294,"text":"好 兩位早安我想這次有關兄弟姊妹特留份這個要修法的部分我是立法院第一個提出修法版本的委員而且我在幾個禮拜前也開過記者會有找台灣移族協會他們來開了一個記者會其實我長期以來我就一直覺得兄弟姊妹特留份這東西我們早就應該要修法了"},{"start":46.954,"end":74.866,"text":"那我過去在擔任檢察官的時候我看過很多家庭的悲劇那遺產的問題其實是偵查體裡面很常見的一個那不管是親處之間的一些仇恨 侵占等等的但是走到特留份這一關的時候他引發出來的問題是常常有一些幾十年沒有聯絡的兄弟姊妹他到最後被繼承人死亡的時候他就跳出來就特留份的部分然後跟其他人在對部公堂"},{"start":75.606,"end":90.681,"text":"所以法律本來應該保障家屬就現在反而變成製造仇恨尤其是現在跟100年前的整個社會的狀況不一樣家族的觀念跟以前100年前其實那個凝聚力也跟以前不一樣所以我才會認為說這個部分修法其實是"},{"start":91.567,"end":113.139,"text":"有破綻沒燒一定要趕快處理那我覺得這次我看到因為我很重視這個議題所以法務部跟司法院的報告我都有仔細看那我老實說法務部的態度比較讓人家失望啦完全輸給司法院司法院的報告寫得很清楚德國 日本 瑞士這些國家螃蟹血清早就沒有特留份那韓國最近也宣告違憲"},{"start":114.66,"end":140.854,"text":"所以司法院的結論非常乾脆就說無不同意見就尊重我們立法刪除但是法務部報告寫了一大堆最後給的方案是好幾個方案那一下說可以廢 一下又說維持現狀然後最後說維持開放的態度那部長剛剛說有不同意見但是也沒有講出什麼是不同意見但是部長你這個想法在實務上面就叫做沒有態度刪除特留份的部分就沒有態度"},{"start":141.414,"end":164.682,"text":"那您是主管機關 實聽法部份 法務部是主管機關然後卻說到115年才要啟動修法然後你才要找學者 公聽會你不覺得其實這個速度太慢了所以我還是想這樣其實有很多例子我們看到的是 甚至就是說我看過一個例子是頂客族"},{"start":165.382,"end":186.294,"text":"然後先生病重 太太照顧他一輩子結果最後先生過世了以後他是說這個財產要全部給配結果先生一走就跑出他那個同父異母的弟弟跳出來從來沒見過的 跳出來要分特留份結果呢 老婆還必須賣房子因為他們只有一間房子 還必須賣掉房子"},{"start":187.094,"end":204.488,"text":"去给了这个同父异母这个他先生兄弟要去补他的特留份所以今天一个本来他太太还有个房子可以安身立命自己一个人就到最后连房子都没有所以既然世界先进国家都已经承诺这样是不是可以请部长法务部这边"},{"start":205.208,"end":228.155,"text":"能夠趕快處理啊 不要說再拖到 一直拖下去啦然後又還有很多不同的想法一下可以 一下不可以可不可以能夠就直接告訴我們國人說其實這個我們就支持刪除 像司法院一樣 部長事實上委員剛剛很關心的這個其實105年那個草案裡面就特留分是有觸及這個問題了"},{"start":230.075,"end":257.396,"text":"他那時候是要降低的那個特留分的一個比例因為其實委員會我們是主管機關所以更要廣大一個意見那其實當然一定是有一個要不要維持的要全部都要上去的那這部分那我想委託研鑽12月底要出來那我想我們會盡快再啟動這個修法但是部長講到一個很重要的點是105年是不是那這部分這個特留分的今年已經114年那一次是有提到"},{"start":258.237,"end":274.815,"text":"那次是修法那是有提到叫立法院這部分就是因為因為大家因為大家那個因為大院就是因為因為借期不連續我還是建議部長啦司法院都勇於表態了那"},{"start":275.618,"end":302.748,"text":"法務部卻是一個模擬兩可的答案這部分請部長您參酌好不好因為既然105年就曾經提過不管屆期連不連續啦但這是一個老議題了都沒有動作也不好那這部分也不是說外界有的所以意思我們就是有委託研究案部長那就這樣那我最後我想要三句話啦我跟這個社會跟社會大眾報告為什麼我認為特留份手足特留份要刪除第一個我們要尊重被繼承人的遺願"},{"start":304.228,"end":329.394,"text":"這是他的財產處分權所以我們把最後決定權還給人民還給這位被繼承人第二個 減少家人兌付公帑就我剛說的 搞到最後常常兄弟姊妹為了特留份兌付公帑這是不應該讓這事情發生而且這是法律搞出來的結果第三個 我們讓家人更安心我們要保障留給真正關心被繼承人的這些人照顧往生者的這些人"},{"start":330.274,"end":354.546,"text":"所以我希望朝野能夠支持我們把手足特留份的部分刪除這跟全國人民以及跟部長報告這個狀況接下來我想提第二個問題部長 我要跟您提三個案子那這個部分也請部長能夠真正的重視這個問題我來講三個故事 第一個 一把雨傘的事情"},{"start":355.973,"end":373.954,"text":"老太太到區公所辦事情錯拿別人的雨傘結果被報警被帶走被起訴一路打到高等法院然後呢最高法院在判決裡面直接講這種小案子檢警動用整套刑事系統把當天去那裡辦事情的民眾的個資全部都要調出來調監視器"},{"start":377.083,"end":404.37,"text":"然後為了辦一支雨傘這有沒有嚴重的違反比例原則而且呢法官在判決還提醒了檢察官不要濫用自己的檢查權那第二個案子救電鍋的事情我想這幾個案子大家都已經很清楚了台北市的清潔隊員把車上價值剩下32塊的救電鍋送給實荒的老人讓他去煮飯結果被依照貪污責任條例侵占植物上的財物"},{"start":405.583,"end":426.265,"text":"起訴 還好 後來法官當然輕判但這不是還好啦 這是悲劇啦那這是 這是多大的問題這個人就叫做 就前科犯 貪污的前科犯甚至還有排外條款的適用甚至他以後要請良民證也請不到不過很多很多問題不是檢察官一份起訴書那麼簡單啦好 再來 第三個是"},{"start":428.106,"end":455.135,"text":"紅單 警察開紅單的事情派出所的警察對於違規停車認為是停在私人土地所以他只勸導車主離開但是呢 被檢察官竟然最後用土地罪來起訴他法定刑五年以上 搞到一二審最後法官都說這個是行政疏失 判無罪但是這三年來這個警察被停職 薪水砍半 還得了憂鬱症停職是本薪的一半而已喔他一個月只剩下零一萬多塊"},{"start":456.189,"end":485.059,"text":"好 我們看到的是一把雨傘的部分是檢察官無視比例原則司法變全民夢魘這嚴重的違反比例原則我跟你講法官他怎麼樣講檢察官他說檢警為了一把雨傘調閱了這些所有民眾的個資然後還把被告以外的個資一併附在偵查券裡面這個有沒有過當好 再來浪費司法資源一把雨傘搞得檢警一審二審"},{"start":486.55,"end":505.307,"text":"那這樣司法不會過勞 司法不會崩潰嗎所以這個檢察官在幹什麼好 再來他花費已經 當事人是住美國耶他每次開庭要從美國飛回台灣耶還要再請律師耶他這是幾百倍 幾千倍相當於這個雨傘的價格了好 最後"},{"start":506.607,"end":534.325,"text":"法官還說檢察官完全搞不清楚裁量權我國是引用德國法治的啊德國法治就有違罪不舉這個概念嘛檢察官本來就要勇於依據職權不起訴不應該上訴就不要上訴檢察官不要有壞習慣無罪就一律上訴我以前當檢察官的時候長官都跟我說無罪就一定要上訴不能不上訴這是錯誤的觀念無罪就無罪如果法官的判決有道理檢察官就要勇於不上訴這是檢察官的勇氣"},{"start":538.048,"end":558.203,"text":"不能讓檢察官變成是一個只會起訴跟上訴的人選機器檢察官喪失財囊權那你叫國中生高中生來當檢察官就好了今天為什麼檢察官受那麼多的教育就是讓你有判斷的能力所以財囊權還是應該好好的運用我們講到雨傘然後講到電鍋電鍋更糟糕"},{"start":559.502,"end":585.098,"text":"你今天我們講民眾不小心拿到雨傘警察官就這樣窮追猛打結果對於這個公務員是毀滅性的打擊核彈級的打擊一個32塊的電鍋跟幾百億的工程弊案我們用的是同一部法律耶 報告部長32塊的電鍋跟幾百億的工程弊案我們是用同一套法律耶 同樣的邏輯耶結果警察官就機械式的套用法律然後構成要件套一套就起訴了"},{"start":586.041,"end":611.913,"text":"然後把一個善意的東西用貪汙來辦這是證明了我們的司法完全僵化到背離了人民的法律感情檢察官很多時候他必須要去認定他必須要下自己的價值判斷在裡面他要勇於不起訴或勇於職權不起訴啊怎麼到今天就過程要先拿一套一套符合法律規範 過程要先拿幾個字我就一律起訴"},{"start":613.84,"end":640.894,"text":"部長這不是什麼高深的學問這只是一個社會相當性的概念部長我們都受同一套教育出來的辦案的時候還是要講法理情但是你理跟情都要討論最高檢最近不是有發一個新聞稿給全國各地檢裡面就有提到犯罪所得跟法義侵害甚為的貪污案件真的要去思考法理情以及社會相當性的概念"},{"start":642.301,"end":661.769,"text":"在法律上面叫做可罰的違法性啦但是我不要講那麼難嘛可罰違法性其實對我們就是一個社會共感的觀念你把一個人他送了一個32塊的電鍋給石荒的人然後你社會這樣辦他不會有國人覺得司法人員好棒棒大家只覺得我們很不人道部長"},{"start":662.529,"end":683.16,"text":"他這部分就情形法重這部分我剛才已經有提到了這個我們其實也不是做定過案我們才提出修法這個情形法重的這個案件尤其是貪污自罪條例我知道你有提一個這個我們有提出了我知道我們馬上就提出了一個修法了那這份刑罪沒審訊了我希望能夠解決委員關心這個問題我跟部長報告一下辦這個貪污的是"},{"start":687.813,"end":707.289,"text":"那個黑金組的檢察官我自己也在黑金待很多年你黑金組檢察官通常是挑狀況比較好就你用最精銳的一批部隊去辦這個這個因為所以委員你也知道你也在時務待過嘛這個黑金組本來就是辦貪污的這個案件所以他們是在黑金組不是因為這個案件一定要指定給黑金組最讓我火大是"},{"start":708.71,"end":720.1,"text":"原警開單那個案子法官怎麼說你知道嗎高院法官說沒有證據說原警有拿好處收紅包他只是自己對於現狀的判斷只勸導沒開單但是因為我法院是我本部法院的判決是個案我們都尊重法院的判決但是本部法務部是在處理法案的處罰金額稅"},{"start":732.95,"end":753.248,"text":"部長 你還沒有抓到我告訴你的東西部長 你一直在講尊重法官的判決我現在在告訴你檢察官偵查以及起訴有一個很大的問題當然檢察官偵查起訴法院也是判有罪所以檢察官或法院都有檢察官在公訴力挺以及在起訴都有求情"},{"start":755.33,"end":777.536,"text":"你已經講了 我有聽到這個有求情 這個案件我們認為是法律上最大的文字這樣去達成你不要一直在那邊講 我跟你講時間有限我只要跟你說 檢察官在處理案子的時候麻煩注意一下社會的共感 我跟你講 報告部長我今天 報告部長 部長你聽我說報告部長 部長可不可以聽我說 拜託你"},{"start":782.881,"end":801.872,"text":"我時間就這麼多但是我必須告訴你我看到司法的問題我今天何其有幸報告部長你聽我說報告部長你可以聽我說嗎我這輩子何其有幸三權分立行政立法司法三權我都走過當我走過三權再回過頭來看司法權的時候部長部長可以聽我講話嗎"},{"start":807.841,"end":836.879,"text":"我說我何其有幸走過三權分立的三權結果我回過頭來看司法權之後我發現我們的司法權尤其是檢察官你是定位為司法官本來是對於被告的利與不利一併注意就我們今天只在乎構成要件符不符合我們搞出了社會很多本來微小的案子本來應該職權不起訴或甚至從寬去認定他構成要件的部分或者是不要率然的就覺得他有"},{"start":837.759,"end":849.844,"text":"主觀翻譯 而可以做不起訴處分 要讓社會安定就我們今天看到的不是這樣 沒關係 部長你一直跟我爭辯 個案爭辯什麼我只是跟部長報告 我們已經對過太多次了我跟你講啦 一把雨傘可以上訴到高院由法院讓你們收尾 32塊的電鍋可以當"},{"start":860.248,"end":875.333,"text":"高院最高檢來發新聞稿滅火然後一個員警開單搞到最後判無罪他報收20公斤然後好幾年沒有辦法工作我跟你說這個對不起這個國家然後我要跟你講一個"},{"start":876.593,"end":896.826,"text":"很多東西是結構性的問題不要濫用圖利罪貪污罪條例有它存在的必要可以好好的讓這個國家變更好但是我們最近看到一堆人拿圖利罪來玩政治攻擊王一川說那個啊 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我們請汪媒會召委主席 我們請金融 還有請塔杜瓦爾 抒發部好 請抒發部的黃副署長然後金融監管會的周祖密你好"},{"start":30.029,"end":33.69,"text":"在這裏本身要先幫你探討一下我們的MetaTattoo有幾個委員所說的差不多方便的,都差不多在我們這裏面的啦中間97%說實在的,那間是私人的"},{"start":48.993,"end":53.735,"text":"尤其那個過程當中 不管是要到處也好還是要交朋友也好 這些都是在我們這個地方興奮所以你剛才有說 它就變形變色融 越變越厚 越變越厚但是是不是在你們事務部裡面"},{"start":71.981,"end":75.063,"text":"所做的我們也是因為詐騙集團很多跟森林林的這個司法部的要怎麼去截止被騙的人這才是最重要的大家應該也知道說"},{"start":90.387,"end":94.532,"text":"這邊的越來越聰明越來越延伸出來越多項的檔篇但是在司法部裡面學生的感覺跟我們民意代表覺得說沒什麼作用"},{"start":108.089,"end":131.263,"text":"其實跟委員這邊來說明一下事實上在速發部這邊主要是針對這個數位經濟的產業的這個部分我們從源頭來做一個阻斷所以其實除了剛剛講的網路廣告平台業之外事實上我們對於電商產業的這個部分早期電商有很多的個資外洩會被詐騙現在也已經下降了"},{"start":132.023,"end":133.825,"text":"那或者是第三方我現在是跟你說是下車走的時候是我們也要阻止人家說我比詐騙集團還要厲害是我的司法部的勝率就是要超越"},{"start":147.623,"end":152.105,"text":"詐騙集團 所想的方法 被審的才對啦跟你說 啊 以前我們做什麼 搞了多少次啊說實在 這對我們喔 現在都沒辦法啦我們也趕快去研議 超前部署你說什麼 隨便的 隨便報案的那你們都知道啊 到現在的時候"},{"start":175.103,"end":192.85,"text":"不然覺得有因素 我不做什麼有出來 有啦這樣好 來 待會跟你們有所作為有做得不錯 拜託恢復到一個月後給我好 沒問題來 我請問金管會在這裡面 我要跟你探討的就是在本省的服務處 每天接到"},{"start":202.97,"end":209.755,"text":"白痴,你如果聽不懂我說台語的時候你可以再問我一次沒關係,大家互相因為我看你剛才這樣罵頭尖尖,我怕你聽不懂我現在的意思是要跟你說我們有帳號,不管是在郵局、在對一間銀行有顯示出來的時候,我們就他的帳號不能用了嘛"},{"start":230.956,"end":233.818,"text":"還尤其在遊郷的時候半天你如果沒出入他就讓你坐牢他又不懂"},{"start":241.004,"end":247.367,"text":"就是覺得你們的法案這個某一個詐騙集團騙人的帳號這本來就要處理這我不會覺得怎麼樣是你們的去到無辜被殺的帳號讓你們正式覺得說這有異常啦"},{"start":261.274,"end":267.402,"text":"尤其你知道嗎 有的弱勢的 根本他就沒有錢跟他的帳號 跟台灣的銀行一分半而已跟你們小孩說他有問題 跟他的債務不可以而已 跟他是要賣"},{"start":279.772,"end":285.815,"text":"儘管的 跟他現在一人阿婆阿兜去哪阿婆阿兜去買儘管回來買跟他同調儘管的資格這延伸出來 我驚動你知不知道你如果看你的通報警示喔181年跟182年跟183年跟184年的1月跟4月"},{"start":307.585,"end":314.126,"text":"說實在,你如果看到無辜的,讓你解除的,會正視多少?跟你們要怎麼做,跟你們有什麼問題,跟你們要不要了解、要不要去問,跟你們直接來正視、來動態這對無辜的人、生活有困難的人,這非常嚴重"},{"start":332.813,"end":338.195,"text":"你們是不是要去那麼準確去凍結他的帳戶才對有的公司很弱勢的時候他如果去銀行問去銀行做什麼銀行都說跟你這個帳戶有問題啦他就要等地檢署判決啦跟你沒有起訴的時候你再去銀行處理啦但是這幾個月要叫他怎麼想法"},{"start":362.785,"end":380.836,"text":"是委員的那個指示我們一定會再去跟更勤銀行優化相關的處理機制但是我這邊報告就是兩個方向一個就是說剛才可能是銀行自己主動偵測疑似涉詐的帳號他會做部分的控管並不會凍結所有的功能"},{"start":381.596,"end":393.787,"text":"那這個部分我們剛才前一位委員有類似的質詢那我們大概就是說請銀行要更優化他的相關的判斷的模型跟模式我現在就是要說銀行都沒有做這個動作啦都覺得我方便就好啊正式出來的時候又來動就好了啦"},{"start":399.912,"end":419.626,"text":"那另外一個部分這剛才講的第一個部分是銀行主動偵測第二部分是警示帳戶警示帳戶是來自於司法警察機關他的提供所以這個部分警示帳戶變成說他如果要解除的話要司法警察機關再去通知銀行來解除這就是有問題的那些嘛還有有做到這個嘛如果是有發生真的很無奈讓銀行覺得有問題的時候當場的時候"},{"start":429.213,"end":438.515,"text":"這個部分因為銀行還是處於一個就整個機制來講他還是處於一個被動通知來處理的一個角色啦那如果怎麼這個其實怎麼去照顧到這些比較真的是弱勢的群眾我們會再來跟警政單位來做一個溝通跟討論"},{"start":459.522,"end":461.685,"text":"我認為你們要去 你剛才說的 聽起來我認為你們如果有問題 要動態 如果你們有意見 你去跟你們說你們可以來接觸 我要跟你們報告"},{"start":475.86,"end":490.754,"text":"因為如果是警示帳戶的話銀行就沒有辦法主動幫他解除如果是銀行自己偵測控管的話就可以所以這部分我們會再來看看怎麼我現在是要說說銀行當然有問題我們尊重手法如何去處理"},{"start":494.867,"end":497.809,"text":"是他覺得我剛才說到現在就是金融會減價啦 還沒辦法改善啦這你們要去了解 要做好啦因為詐騙集團的帳號借的 還是人頭的 這我們百分之一百這一定要處理的"},{"start":516.889,"end":526.271,"text":"但是我講的就是無辜的事了解 了解再來 我要說我們的詐騙集團越來越嚴重了我們在2023年 聯邦銀行提高提款額度並解除控管但是我們沒有審核 協助詐騙集團去拿錢出來"},{"start":546.594,"end":550.317,"text":"嚴格在2023年 中國信託啦他的行為提供 他的帳號領域 方便詐騙集團設置啦再來2024年啦 一定的某一個副理涉嫌 也幫詐騙集團設置啦"},{"start":574.168,"end":580.672,"text":"以前的喔 再來更恐怖的就是2005年台灣藝人兩個夥伴合作詐騙集團設置啦結果在這個過程當中大家都認為 台灣藝人是我們國家的耶嚴若發生之後的時候你們看他所發的 加發一個兩千兩百萬"},{"start":603.804,"end":614.334,"text":"他這個三季收攤的錢250多億啦這樣說實在應該不敢做壞事啦是跟委員報告因為我們是針對銀行的內控跟管理來做裁罰所以裁罰的主體是銀行啦"},{"start":623.77,"end":636.043,"text":"那針對 雖然當事人他們會有受到相關刑事 民事我現在就是要跟你們說 金管會你們所有的銀行 白色也最新銀行跟你們裡面的行員在那裡設置 那要找新人喔說實在 台灣銀行咧 不是普通的"},{"start":645.326,"end":648.428,"text":"臺灣人是要印中華民國臺灣的字做這個事情 我說不管是什麼你們政府要去研議一個附帶的制令"},{"start":660.777,"end":664.741,"text":"像大叔也騙人賣房子賣地這也要負擔大叔那間花園的一年也要發財不然我講實在的像這個發財沒感覺"},{"start":679.663,"end":682.445,"text":"跟未來,我說你們的金管會書啊,部委家,我們的詐騙集團的車手,要去那裡,你們要怎麼選我,讓他們說,那裡沒什麼方便啦。"},{"start":695.632,"end":699.656,"text":"像ATM 裡面要捏線的時候 你是不是可以做得更正確讓車手要捏的時候 批准質問也好 他的臉孔辨識也好可以讓他 沒這麼方便啦"},{"start":715.43,"end":720.431,"text":"是不是我們應該要這樣做 沒說實在的 詐騙集團最方便的就是ATM去拿錢 又騙騙的 把我來捏沒兩分鐘 所謂錢就捏了所以你們在這個關卡上 你們要想什麼方法去處理所以司法部跟金融的家 我們不是說要責怪你們什麼 我覺得你們有這個能力 還可以做得好 以上"},{"start":746.032,"end":747.168,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6fca6aeecb0476523c7cefddca96be500a14720b4e10c82cbb53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:47:54 - 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謝主席 我們先請法務部徐政次安家徐政次好 委員長"},{"start":11.584,"end":33.184,"text":"好 徐政慈早安今天這個修法其實我相信其實不分黨派大家都已經有基本的共識了那其實大家都提出版本那朝野其實差不多方向已經很一致那只是在技術上我在這邊請教兩個意見啦因為在證券版裡面有規定說這個被告是要在檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起六個月內"},{"start":34.625,"end":51.822,"text":"就是要付全額然後才可以減輕期刑嘛那當然這個其實大家會覺得說這應該是一個好的方向因為說希望不論是這個詐騙集團的哪一個角色就算你是車手你也有這樣的責任要去把相關的金額負擔出來然後"},{"start":52.382,"end":73.856,"text":"要去保障這個被害人但是實務上我要請教的第一個就是說六個月到底夠不夠因為其實有一些委員的版本裡面把和解最後的時間點是放在第一審的言辭辯論終結前來達成調解那司法院的意見有提到說通常詐騙的案件第一審通常的辦案期間是兩年四個月"},{"start":74.816,"end":89.517,"text":"所以呢那有些人就是說啊這個對受害人來說太久了那所以這個時間點到底要定在哪裡會是一個比較好的時間點這個第一個請教證詞另外一個就是說如果六個月內時間太短了然後車手就是說我抽不出來那不然你關我好了"},{"start":91.88,"end":116.921,"text":"那會不會最後說其實最後真的關到的就是這一些大家知道說最後就是車手出來擔那沒有辦法往上追或者是說這個錢最後又被脫產那被害人也拿不到錢然後車手也關了也關了但是最後這些詐騙集團的主謀都沒有辦法往上追這兩個技術的意見我希望你們可以再進一步的討論找出一個最好的可以實務上解決詐騙案件的這個方式好 簡單回應好"},{"start":122.03,"end":147.039,"text":"謝謝委員我想這是一個寬點就是說在某些條件之下我們願意給他減輕其刑那這個寬點的寬跟窄就會牽涉到被害人多久可以拿到這些錢以前如果你沒有規定你說是原則辯論還有一審原則辯論跟二審那如果到二審一審的有人就不和解了他會等到二審的時候我再來和解你判我有罪我來和解"},{"start":147.499,"end":174.558,"text":"所以这个就会一直拖一直拉那你一审的辩论终结像刚才讲到有些案子它真的拖两年我们的被害人能等吗所以我们是抓跟司法院讨论的结果就是我们抓一个大家比较能够接受一般的案件侦查大概三个月审判三个月加起来大概是六个月希望在第一审的辩论终结以前就有一个结论所以这个是我们抓六个月的时间当然它有可能少于"},{"start":175.198,"end":193.049,"text":"一般简单的案就多于一般简单案件可是少于复杂的案件但是我们是从里面抓一个一般我比较被害人可能可以比较快速的得到赔偿的一个时间我希望的是实务上真的要拿得到钱"},{"start":193.949,"end":221.61,"text":"不要说到时候车手说我就是筹不出来然后被害人也说那就是我没有办法被保护然后钱也拿不到然后最后车手自己也没办法减刑然后结果最后一场空我比较怕是这样那当然我觉得这个加配集团任何一份子当然都要用最严格的方式去处理是对啊所以我是希望到时候实务上看跟内政部可不可以再讨论一下实务上有没有可以更精进的技术上的"},{"start":222.29,"end":235.659,"text":"可以處理的方式那法律上當然這樣定就這樣定下去沒有問題是好謝謝政策那在我們請速發布加速發布那個是負數位對產業署的副署長嗎"},{"start":240.368,"end":264.106,"text":"好副所長在這邊請教我剛剛其實提案的說明有提到說我希望增加兩個部分一個是廣告的透明化就是說在廣告的推播的參數上面他必須要揭露更多的資訊因為其實我知道說現在打架專法31條已經有基本的資訊包括說現在你剛說的九成以上的meta然後其實tiktok然後googleyoutubeline"},{"start":264.506,"end":274.313,"text":"這些平台都必須要有基本它是廣告就要有刊登者出資者這一些基本的資料但我希望接下來是包括說它的一些參數設定廣告刊登的時間然後這個廣告沒有違反過相關的規定然後觸及的人數等等"},{"start":280.237,"end":306.138,"text":"都可以相關提供一個廣告庫那另外一個就是要杜絕這些剛剛其實有委員提到灰色廣告的部分就是它就是假推薦真詐騙假推薦真詐騙這種其實非常多而且是一個非常主要的詐騙的類型它就是說它就是一些專家教你要投顧然後在網路上有各式各樣這種你就是加入我們的群組然後用一些小網紅然後讓你"},{"start":308.16,"end":310.823,"text":"說你就是加入我們那最後你錢騙到手了那最後他們是沒有辦法被你們規範在所謂的詐騙廣告裡面的是因為他們的這個跟詐騙集團的關係是那個網紅本身是這一些是這個財經專家本身而不是廣告所以會變成說他是假"},{"start":329.46,"end":335.662,"text":"假網紅之名他就是真業配那其實內容都是詐騙這些就沒有辦法在你們目前的規範裡面可是我看到書發布的意見卻認為說這個你們不想管是這樣子嗎報告委員這個其實不是不想管啦我想其實我們管理的是網路廣告平台業"},{"start":350.868,"end":371.373,"text":"那剛剛其實委員提到的這個部分的廣告的管理其實事實上目前已經也有公平交易法相關的規範可以去做處理那另外呢其實事實上我們的網路我們有做了一個網路通報查詢網針對於民眾所通報的不管是詐騙的廣告或者是訊息我們事實上都可以要求"},{"start":372.833,"end":390.518,"text":"這個網路廣告平台業者去進行下架可是像我剛剛說的這種類型是假業配真詐騙的這種類型並沒有規範進去那這種灰色廣告現在其實是詐騙手法非常主流的一種方式那你們的方式其實就是在告訴詐騙集團說你不要付錢給平台你付錢給這些網紅就好因為你的廣告費不是給平台可是給這些網紅他一樣可以刊登啊"},{"start":401.06,"end":423.469,"text":"然後看燈完其實因為這些平台他們的紅利就是來自於使用者的數據流量可是現在他們換一種方式去規避你們的廣告揭露就好了耶事實上我們的這個詐騙的就是打詐專法的第33條針對於不實的訊息也是可以去要求他們來進行下架的部分"},{"start":424.392,"end":444.202,"text":"所以我其實在我有提我自己的修法的版本那我希望說訴法部就是就我以上的意見可以把它納入法律的規範裡面我們來研究一下因為我其實看過你們的報告啦你們給我的回覆我非常的不滿意因為等於是你們看起來完全沒有意願要處理"},{"start":446.288,"end":462.302,"text":"而且非常的消極甚至是我提到這個廣告庫的部分你們是告訴我什麼你們是跟我說就是說這個不是你們的責任啊然後看起來是就是認為說就是接下來都是丟給警察就好勒"},{"start":462.822,"end":489.864,"text":"不是事實上委員沒有啊就我看到報告的我的感覺是這樣啊你們聽起來就是覺得說剩下都是後端的事情都是警察要不要處理如果他要處理他就想辦法跟這些平台業者去調數據去調閱這些相關的資料就好那你們不想要從頭來管理這些平台揭露的責任委員不是這樣子的我想其實因為當初在這個打炸專法裡面其實我們規範的是網路廣告平台業者"},{"start":490.952,"end":506.848,"text":"確實是有對價關係但是呢對於這個沒有對價關係的不實訊息事實上在第33條還是有去進行處理的我們還是可以依照就是說當這個詐騙的訊息是確定的我們還是可以要求網路廣告平台業者去進行下架"},{"start":507.268,"end":515.559,"text":"我們可以看到說近一年來事實上詐騙的廣告真的已經是大幅的下降但是因為詐騙的集團他其實事實上就像那個變形蟲一樣他可能就會從線上變成線下來進行這個民眾的一個詐騙"},{"start":522.228,"end":542.274,"text":"所以這個有關這個部分來講的話我們目前其實事實上不管是在這個通報下架之外呢我們也一直不斷的去這個教導民眾要如何去試駕好啦副署長我跟你請教啦你覺得社群廣告的社群媒體中的廣告更透明化有沒有助於詐騙的防治"},{"start":544.014,"end":554.245,"text":"我想透明化絕對是有助於是嗎所以這個是我們的目標那現在其實歐盟都已經有相關的法律規範了為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到"},{"start":555.71,"end":568.273,"text":"委員我想我們只是針對說委員這邊提到說這個資料庫可能需要去延長到一年所以為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到嘛因為我們也是希望說詐騙的廣告應該是及時下架不要讓民眾不長時間的去接觸這個不會出現在使用者的動態頁面上面啊你是不是沒有看你有看懂歐盟的做法嗎這個不是說讓這些廣告繼續放著讓使用者看耶"},{"start":583.697,"end":592.967,"text":"好啦時間已經到了但我覺得現在書發布很顯然還是搞不清楚狀況你們先研究一下歐盟的做法我們就是希望跟歐盟比較辦理就這麼簡單就這麼簡單好謝謝副書長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6123244d3affac73ac7cefddca96be500a14720b4e10c82cbb53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:37:07 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我想外勤的通常真的是非常辛苦因為他是採輪班制他的上班當然就是跟一般的公務人員的上班的狀況不一樣就好像比如跟當在醫療機構相同比如大夜班隔天休假根本就是沒有辦法好好休假就是要補休睡覺因為這個是我們勤務的一個性質就是工作勤務的性質"},{"start":114.386,"end":137.056,"text":"那我們的這個輪休的這個狀況每個禮拜也是要兩天的這個輪休兩日輪休那我們是依照這個我們值班輪休的一個要點來做一個實施以前就是照這個要點嘛那怎麼會大家上班完以後我請教署長大家上班完以後依照我們警察這個大家的頒布的規定輪休完以後居然到最後跟大家講說你要來補要還價"},{"start":138.991,"end":152.072,"text":"要把他的這個休假給扣掉這樣子的做法您的認同嗎我跟委員報告一下就是說我們當然就是以這個輪班制的方式那每天大概以8個小時必要可以延長2到4個小時"},{"start":154.395,"end":178.694,"text":"那我們也是有規範他連續要休息11個小時這個規範那我想就因為是警察工作的一個性質的情形就是沒有間斷我們也服務民眾也是二小時沒有做間斷這是工作的一個狀況所以那署長你認同你認同剛剛我們這樣討論的所以這個警察基層同仁照表上班啊可是上班到最後還說我放假太多叫我們要還價那"},{"start":180.795,"end":190.207,"text":"尤其有很多警察員加班的時數超過還會被檢討那甚至我聽到現在就是說還要這些基層警察同仁去填這個"},{"start":191.317,"end":217.848,"text":"身心架就是現在大家知道行政院有一個身心架的一個規定叫他填身心架來去把這個放假比這個公務人員一般放假多一點點比如說多一兩天的就叫他去填這個身心架所以造成基層同仁覺得說我身心又沒有問題為什麼叫我填身心架我想所以所以署長你這邊是不是可以明確的來表示說你對這樣子的制度是不是應該要來檢討那我想就是要從各"},{"start":219.309,"end":239.84,"text":"各地區的這個特性來做彈性調整做規劃他的這個潛入有些就是他可能就剩上8個小時或或是10個小時就是一地區的特性來做一個一個規劃來做一個調整那我也希望就是說對於外景的同仁在於這個他的一個超時的這個"},{"start":241.191,"end":269.008,"text":"這個加班或者是他的這個給予如果說時間允許給予做這些補修都我們都授權給各主觀來做一個彈性調整我想這個不是一個很硬式因為簡單工作本來就是20小時這個不確定性的那我想這個部分就是多照顧我們同仁的身心健康是不是拜託部長跟署長是不是給我一個承諾在三個月內來研議這種輪班的公務人員的休假的計算基數"},{"start":269.868,"end":292.406,"text":"是不是可以來來討論一個更合理的一個方式有機會嗎好那我們來三個月之內好不好就是千萬不要叫我們基層的員警就是照了政府照了這個警察我們大家講好的輪班制度以後還要需要再還價這基層員警沒辦法接受好那第二個我想要請教署長的一個部分就是最近那個在昨天在"},{"start":294.74,"end":318.176,"text":"台北市政府的质询里面有提到说这个市警局现在所使用的酒测器跟酒测棒是这个中国制的这个一个状况那当然在蒋安市长在回应跟这个台北市警察局长在询答的时候他说这个是当时采用共同供应契约的采购案是由警政署来办理的哦"},{"start":318.666,"end":333.694,"text":"那所以這個應該來講這個問題到底我要想請教因為當時你還不是署長嘛可是我想要請教說那這樣子這個這樣子的爆料第一個是不是真實這真的是中國製的酒測器跟酒測棒嗎然後然後是不是有其產地的問題"},{"start":334.534,"end":361.843,"text":"那現在目前這樣的這個酒測器跟酒測器是否還有在使用那未來關於這樣的洗產地的部分檢證署如何處理以及現在到底有多少數量的這個酒測器跟酒測棒因為為什麼要去問這個問題因為這是違反當時的採購的這個合約裡面的規範嘛對不對好那請署長回答我就要跟委員這個出國報告這個就是共約的就是有共約是從109年才有這一些就是禁止使用中國製的這個狀況"},{"start":363.163,"end":368.828,"text":"那酒測器的部分我們109年才有公佈說109年那他說這個是106年的產購案所以當時這個就是沒有做這樣的規範所以當時沒有做這樣的規範所以是烏龍爆料所以我這樣子啦就是我現在簡單講這個酒測器都有不是屬沒有統一產購不過109年以後才有規範那106年以前才賣的那怎麼辦"},{"start":385.295,"end":411.953,"text":"那九二七使用的年紀只有五年現在就沒使用了所以現在這些東西也沒有在使用沒有就是一百零六年那個就沒有在因為他九二七的使用年紀是五年所以一零九年開始到現在目前這五年內的才會有所以一零九年就是有在公約上有禁止使用中國那我們現在在做清查如果說屬實的話我們就會依法來做一個處置那我特別提醒就是因為這九二七都由各縣"},{"start":413.274,"end":417.199,"text":"各縣市的地方政府的警察局來採 警務署沒有採過這樣的一個器材他們的採購是從公約裡面去做做採購那公約從109年就有做這一個"},{"start":426.176,"end":443.372,"text":"有關這個中國的一個製的這個產品的這個禁止的規定那我們現在這個案在做調查看實際這個狀況有沒有這個是真正有用這個中國製的這個產品的一個救生器好謝謝署長意思就是說如果是有就是就是講109年以後"},{"start":445.214,"end":466.288,"text":"应该是没有这样的问题那现在一般来讲也没有在使用的状况如果发现现在地方警察局还有在使用的你们会尽早来做一个处理吗对 尽早处理就禁止使用我们会再做一个处理好 那最后我是不是可以请打炸中心的王执行长跟金管会的周祖密来最后一个问题委员好"},{"start":470.489,"end":495.231,"text":"好 這個我們看到大家都對打詐非常的重視那我們看到太子集團有個跨國詐騙集團把總部設在台北101吸金45億買了11棟豪宅29輛超跑等等這些問題那銀行端對該集團其實有通報52次那我們打詐國家隊到底如何反應那請這邊是不是請打詐中心來回應那第二個我要請教金管會的問題就是說"},{"start":496.414,"end":524.546,"text":"就是我們認為政府對打詐對這些打詐的大鱷魚沒有辦法處理可是對小百姓窮追猛打這之前我也特別提出今晚會是不是對於這個有關於人民的帳戶於而第九位使用的無預警凍結早是這個很多人的這個帳戶沒辦法去做使用是不是對這兩個問題可以請你們說明一下跟委員報告有關於太子集團在台灣洗錢的案件"},{"start":525.404,"end":552.923,"text":"我們分析其最大原因是他是利用人頭公司來進行犯罪然後在人頭公司來洗錢部分那至於在上個禮拜的時候那個政務委員有召開相關會議然後就是會針對公司的一些包括喬外資之後的最終收益人來進行研議看如何把最終收益人列在相關的法令另外的部分因為其實包括經濟部還有其他部會相關的"},{"start":553.84,"end":567.253,"text":"就是資料庫的部分因為是沒有共用沒有就是沒有互相流通我們也是演演繹比如說這樣像比如說有人頭帳戶前科的告誡的資料可以讓經濟部來審查相關的公司的登記"},{"start":569.397,"end":595.758,"text":"好謝謝那最後請經管會現在對於一般民眾的帳戶你們到底是如何處理是不是都把餘額低跟未久使用的帳戶全部凍結是委員好那個銀行這個凍結這個這個動作其實就是基於我們打大專法他會主動偵查有疑似可能受到詐騙的風險的可能但是如果全部凍結那確實是不符合比例原則這個部分我們都會請銀行一定要去第一個就是要"},{"start":596.611,"end":616.458,"text":"要有精準的判斷第二個就是說要有給客戶一個申訴的一個明確的窗口要迅速處理如何申訴銀行都會建立一個窗口就是專職的窗口去接受這樣相關的案件去申訴那如果申訴他銀行會再把他解控"},{"start":616.958,"end":632.613,"text":"如果說是有明確的理由的話那這個部分我們都會持續請銀行來優化它相關偵測疑似詐欺賬戶的一些做法因為本席收到很多的民眾陳情希望你們再好好來不要打詐打到一般無辜民眾拜託一下 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我們謝謝那個我們的打炸專法去年的一個通過所以呢 我們有幸可以請這個網路廣告平台業他們能夠被我們納管以後在台灣他能夠設立法律代表人然後讓我們的文件收送能夠有一個有沒有裁罰 有沒有裁罰他的能力有的 我們其實事實上在這將近一年的過程當中其實事實上已經剛剛部長報告我們已經裁罰了1850萬元"},{"start":125.013,"end":153.127,"text":"好来我跟你讲一下来那个副市长在美国以及在这个欧洲那其实他裁罚的数量金额其实远远高于我们比如说在美国他美国政府裁罚Meta因为诈骗广告就罚了10亿美元一年就罚了10亿美元那欧洲呢他这个数位服务法里面"},{"start":153.677,"end":166.645,"text":"它規範的這個罰則裡面是包含它全球總營收的6%如果說Meta在全球賺了1000億美金好了它是可以罰它60億美金的"},{"start":167.741,"end":196.592,"text":"所以來 副市長我希望你可以研議一下如果這個平台的廣告繼續還是這樣子的話那我們有什麼手段可以讓這個平台害怕因為畢竟我們是比較晚一點我講一個紀錄片給你參考一下在劍橋各自風暴裡面的David Carlos這一個劍橋大學的教授他針對Meta提出一個控告他要控告Meta到底"},{"start":198.036,"end":223.381,"text":"大數據裡面到底有多少他個人的資料那Meta到現在還是沒有辦法提出來但是在歐洲整個歐盟政府他產出了什麼 他產出了數位服務法 他產出了一般資料保護規範他約束了Meta在使用個人個資上的所有的這些行為那但是在台灣有沒有辦法約束到這些你有沒有辦法跟國人說"},{"start":224.69,"end":238.088,"text":"你在点选这一些可能某一些商品或者是你的兴趣的时候Meta随之而来的就是大量的这些广告当你点选这些可能投资资讯的时候"},{"start":238.646,"end":254.223,"text":"他伴隨帶來的這些廣告對於所有的用戶有沒有這些防止詐騙的這些功能我們有沒有辦法約束到他們這一些其實這些就是很多都是投資詐騙就是從這裡來的嘛那所以說"},{"start":255.004,"end":274.847,"text":"我覺得我們離進步的歐盟還有美國對於這些網路安全防止詐騙的這些手段來講我們還離很遠但是我們要不要持續的來做這才是我們要做的刑事局站在你旁邊的刑事局都是跟著在後面捕破網最後就是一句話"},{"start":276.726,"end":292.719,"text":"這是來自Meta的廣告或者是來自這些平台的這些不實的內容造成這些詐騙的結果不是說台灣詐騙天堂是我們有沒有能力再規範這些廣告這些不實廣告這些詐騙簡訊的這些手段"},{"start":296.044,"end":301.528,"text":"是謝謝委員給我說明的機會喔那呃事實上在這一年來我們跟meta這邊我們其實從好幾個面向來做一個處理喔不是meta我想呃我們納管的90%的你先處理了其他的好"},{"start":311.255,"end":315.638,"text":"而針對Meta這個部分來講呢其實我們在科技技術上面來講的話呢也有一起來做努力包括說我們自己有發展這個AI的一個巡檢的技術當我們巡檢到相關的一個這個詐騙的廣告的時候要求Meta下架之外我們要求他把我們的這樣的一個詐騙的樣態作為他們自己在做AI演算的時候呢可以去事先的去做一個巡檢去下架事實上這樣的一個詐騙"},{"start":340.676,"end":357.219,"text":"那你有沒有這個你剛講的很好我也希望你有已經有實際上他已經下架的這些數據有多少呢根據我們跟他們的了解過去他們大概在這一年下架的這個件數大概超過430萬則你認為這是正確的嗎我另外舉一個例子給你聽路透社的報導說"},{"start":366.445,"end":392.246,"text":"Meta最少有10%的營收也就是台幣可能接近5000億是來自平台上投放詐騙廣告的收入那還是Meta到現在到目前為止他還是沒有辦法提供相關的數據如同Meta針對這個劍橋大學的這個教授的指控他到最後還是沒有辦法提出"},{"start":392.779,"end":415.667,"text":"他到底有多少這個教授的個人資料他到底收集了多少數據也就是說他其實還是不會跟政府老老實實的說明他到底有多少這些詐騙廣告的收入或者是我們要有更多的武器才可以針對他我想這個是我們要繼續跟Meta來研究的地方要繼續做這些網路控管的地方"},{"start":416.087,"end":422.252,"text":"好的我們其實一直都有跟他們加強的聯繫不夠啦不夠啦我們會再努力請局長局長現在剛剛這個也講的這個副署長也講得很清楚大部分來自Meta的這些詐騙訊息或者是這個平台的這些不實的廣告啦那警政署其實我上次跟你質詢的內容裡面也包含這些地下的"},{"start":445.427,"end":472.32,"text":"地下的這個放貸的組織他們其實一個集團扮演的多個角色對同樣一組人做大量的資訊的借款的資訊的投放那有ABCDE分別這樣子同一個集團可以讓一個人分別簽了四五十張簽了四五十張的這個本票那其實這些源頭你也知道但是後續的這些協助被害人的這些行為也希望刑事局這邊還可以繼續加強"},{"start":474.24,"end":495.731,"text":"這個沒有問題我們對這些呢就是一連串的這些詐騙行為包括就是後續的這些不管是抵押不動產或者是去解除這個受刑的這個定存的部分我們都會做全力的來查緝包括你剛剛委員所提的這些詐騙集團後續的這個地下錢狀這個部分我們都全力來查緝的好謝謝辛苦謝謝謝謝感謝"}]}},{"id":"166096","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166096","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d67cb9414b692a7dc9d25403dec583eac67be3e8fe055fbc1339c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:03:29 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謝謝主席 我們翁昭蔚那接下來我請那個法務部部長好 有請部長"},{"start":21.44,"end":36.701,"text":"來委員好部長您好我們今天針對這個民法繼承編特留份制度來做一個檢討我們也非常感謝召委把這樣一個主題給排上因為這其實是民間的一個提案那也獲得很大的一個迴響"},{"start":37.822,"end":58.636,"text":"那麼最主要應該是在我們的整個繼承制度長期沒有來跟上整個時代的脈動的一個變化導致僵化那目前兄弟姐妹的特留份在現代家庭的結構裡面跟實際撫養的一個關係裡面沒有具正當性所以本席主張應該來廢除"},{"start":60.397,"end":80.934,"text":"首先我們在特留 我國在特留份的制度上原本的利益是要保障最低限度應受照顧的繼承人但是在整個國際立法當中尤其是用大陸法系的主要國家包括法國 德國 奧地利 日本都沒有把兄弟姊妹列為特留份的權利人"},{"start":81.594,"end":96.797,"text":"因為兄弟姊妹在現代社會當中實質的撫養關係家庭的功能也跟過去共同居住還有共同財產的結構不太一樣了但是我國卻仍然保有第三順位繼承人的一個特留份有點脫離現實最重要的是直接影響跟限制了遺族的自由使繼承人一生的財產分配"},{"start":104.019,"end":118.73,"text":"被過時的一個制度來綁手綁腳甚至這個特留份的存在讓很多的遺囑案在法院徵送多年造成了家庭糾紛 財產凍結跟制度原本的這個目的其實有點背離"},{"start":119.771,"end":146.498,"text":"其實在2007年的法務部的研討裡面也已經談到我們的民法1117條的規定兄弟姊妹不能維持生活又沒有謀生能力且無職系血親悲親屬撫養的時候才能請求其他兄弟姊妹撫養特留份的規定其實沒有絕對的必要現在的狀況兄弟姊妹相互撫養的情形也很少生活的保障應該要做一個調整"},{"start":147.618,"end":167.203,"text":"所以刪除這個特留份其實不違背原本的公平正義原則那也合乎現代時代的一個脈動所以這個改革的方向基本上也不是說新的它其實是也放了十幾年所以本席在這邊認為這個廢除兄弟姐妹特留份應該同步的啟動遺囑制度的一個強化"},{"start":169.904,"end":189.861,"text":"所以目前的遺囑制度整個的也是樣態非常繁雜規範上也很薄弱而導致很多的徵送許多被繼承人儘管有意願有的時候還是沒有辦法完成遺囑常常都在這個時候發生一些爭議結果沒有辦法保障真正需要被照顧的人"},{"start":191.082,"end":216.787,"text":"所以我們來參考一下美國有一些法院嚴格監督的遺囑驗證法院的制度能夠確保遺囑真實有效讓立遺囑成為一個普遍的文化我想現代社會對這個部分其實需求是增加的所以我們在遺囑制度這個部分也應該有一些補強的地方所以本席請部長給予本席一個比較明確的回應"},{"start":218.467,"end":244.862,"text":"那第一個部分是法務部是不是來支持廢除兄弟姊妹特留份的這樣一個方向那第二個部分在這個同時做這件事情的時候呢我們可不可以同步來啟動遺囑制度的一個全面檢討那包含遺囑認證的機制還有降低這個公正的門檻那第三個部分是完善普及育立遺囑您的看法"},{"start":245.747,"end":266.783,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們現在正好有委託研究剛才我有提到了那在12月底會出來那這部分我們委託的包括有特留分的問題還有包括委員關心包括遺囑 印記分等等的我們是繼承篇的有關你這部分的就全面的一個檢討那因為那一次有送到大院來但是因為"},{"start":267.944,"end":294.571,"text":"意見還是很多 因為每個人的各方的一些的我們知道這個問題是比較複雜 那家家有本難念的那因為我主管機關我沒辦法說我偏好哪一種 直接講要是我不是專長 當然我有我自己的偏好希望哪一種 但是我必須要廣大各界的一個意見去求得一個立法上的一個平衡那這部分我想細節上是不是我請那個司長來跟委員做一個在座"},{"start":295.311,"end":317.257,"text":"市長你可以很快的就是就這個方向然後你們目前可能有的實際的做法就如同本席講的這個問題我相信你們也已經過去有很多的研討但是放了這麼多年那現代社會尤其是現在的生活型態要導致爭議越來越多那所以是不是在這個方向上還有速度上你們目前的一個做法是如何"},{"start":317.697,"end":331.505,"text":"是跟委員報告喔這個因為民法繼承篇裡面包含了剛剛委員所垂詢的特留份的制度還有移族的制度那我們105年提出來的修正草案裡面其實有包含這兩個條這兩個議題所以很早就已經針對這兩個議題有一些結果嘛"},{"start":335.868,"end":362.59,"text":"但是十幾年一直也都還沒有一些進度所以我想現在各界應該針對現在社會的生活方式其實已經產生了更多的一些爭議所以是不是法務部這個部分針對本席所講的這個方向那你們也應該有一些主張啦可以積極作為我們講的嘛就是說你們原本立法意旨想要處理的方向結果導致在現實狀況下現在已經不合時宜了"},{"start":363.03,"end":392.311,"text":"那是不是速度上還有方向上都應該做趕快的調整呢是 我們會盡快的研議因為就特留份的制度來講目前我們收到的資訊包含人民的陳情案件裡面當然有建議刪除的刪除兄弟姊妹特留份那也有建議把整個特留份制度完全刪除但是也有人建議要維持特留份的制度那另外除了刪除以外有人建議要調降的所以各種建議都有"},{"start":392.671,"end":405.837,"text":"我知道每一件事情各種建議都有但是本席提到就是說那你們也應該針對目前你們所碰到的這個狀況然後比例上的這個多寡然後去了解一下現在社會的現狀對不能懸在那邊一直很久然後搞到你看為什麼會排這個主題基本上就民間非常對這件事情的這個響應非常的高那我想法務部也不能在這個比較消極的認識嘛對不對"},{"start":417.643,"end":433.909,"text":"今年四月份就已經委託研究其實在即便是沒有眾開獎那一位提議者的建議其實本部就已經著手要研修繼承法相關規定所以我們也應該有一些看法跟主張就是積極認識好不好好 謝謝接下來本席也談跟這個部長這邊來探討一下這個民法1052年的這個修正"},{"start":447.854,"end":463.68,"text":"1052條有關於離婚室友的修正針對因他方故意犯罪得請求離婚的門檻法務部現行的版本竟然把宣告六個月以上的刑期上修為宣告兩年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":467.161,"end":488.269,"text":"怎麼會把這個六個月上修到兩個兩年以上的有期徒刑那本席認為你們這樣子的修正方向對於防治家庭暴力上跟防治毒品跟性犯罪的一個機制有一點這個方向上有點背離喔那部長是不是可以說明為什麼要把六個月提高到兩年因為"},{"start":488.829,"end":504.732,"text":"就本席所掌握的狀況六個月的門檻已經能夠涵蓋大量足以破壞家庭功能的犯罪太陽像毒品使用防範性自主防害性自主或強制猥褻家暴的相關案件那通常宣告呢"},{"start":505.192,"end":529.131,"text":"六個月以上一年以下的這個判刑就已經足以處理這樣子的事情但是呢你們如果提高到兩年那是不是會讓配偶身心受到更重大侵害的一個犯罪那如果有這麼更重大的侵害的犯罪呢都沒有辦法再提離婚的這個室友那這個不是跟原本你們的立法意旨是背離的嗎"},{"start":531.417,"end":560.68,"text":"可以請 您的看法這部分我想這個立法這部分他有做過一個討論那我想這個細節是不是我請市長來答覆很快的這個回應一下 謝委員隨時有關於將六個月提高為兩年這個議題我們在部裡的民法清數評研修會也討論很久那當時最主要的考量就是說有些違罪譬如說譬如說竊盜那這個處的六個月五個月譬如說他"},{"start":561.3,"end":582.795,"text":"所以門檻是六個月上修為兩年就主要是擔心就是違罪然後徒刑的刑度不高的時候然後就可以提起離婚然後影響到婚姻的穩定性當時是有這樣的考量那這個部分是還可以再討論的但是你們考量的是就你們觀點看的這個穩定性"},{"start":584.096,"end":605.322,"text":"可是呢如果這個配偶沒有辦法在一個已經被判六個月或者是他的刑期如果還更高的話那配偶已經在身心上遭受很大的一個衝擊的話他還沒有辦法離婚那這不是也讓配偶跟你們的修法方向其實是背離的嗎"},{"start":605.922,"end":628.747,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一次修法有點像強迫維持婚姻嘛對不對我們這一次修法有增加了一個破綻主義的原理在裡頭增加了第二項的規定如果說這個配偶一方呢他如果已經認為這個婚姻難以維持而且有重大的理由的話其實破綻主義的精神也可以提起離婚的我們有配套的規定"},{"start":629.867,"end":653.132,"text":"是但是你們這個其實加重了一些家庭的這個負擔我實際認為你們現在的版本修的比現行法你們即將要修的版本比現行法更嚴苛其實是不合乎被害者的這個保護原則你們要思考一下本席是認為你們現在六個月的刑期應該是比較適切的那你把它提高你反而讓婚姻裡面的被害者"},{"start":654.192,"end":669.103,"text":"你們為了要所謂維持婚姻可是讓被害者其實陷於一種長期的這個相對的被迫害其實是不太宜的這個議題也是各有不同的意見那最後你們有沒有做一些量化的評估是不是要針對這個議題跟社會福利團體家暴房子的單位還有民間團體充分溝通"},{"start":674.206,"end":688.414,"text":"然後最重要不要忘記是你們要解決婚姻裡面的問題而不是從國家主義去維護你們所謂的社會的家庭的穩定性結果搞到在家庭裡面已經碰到問題的被害者都沒有辦法為他的權益來發聲"},{"start":689.755,"end":715.387,"text":"因為我們有增加了破綻主義的條文在裡頭所以呢這部分是有配套的措施那這個草案在通過之前呢我們都有徵詢各團體的意見本席剛才所講的社會福利團體 婦女團體那是不是相關的資料還有他們的意見你會會後補充給本席可以的 謝謝總之本席還是講一下本席的訴求啦還是覺得現行的六個月"},{"start":716.027,"end":735.254,"text":"就已經規範到你們原先這個立法的意旨了那對於提高到兩年這樣很大的刑期的差異本席認為應該要再審慎的思考謝謝好謝謝那最後一個我可能很快的我們是不是那個部長請回那我們請司法院副秘書長"},{"start":740.203,"end":758.014,"text":"本席在最後針對這個羈押制度是不是有點過度的侵害人權來跟您做一個探討依據我們公民與政治權利的國際公約第九條的第三項任何因刑事罪而被逮捕拘禁之人都應該在合理期間來受審或獲釋"},{"start":760.936,"end":781.763,"text":"那麼聯合國在之前也提出了一個一般性意見的第35號跟第37點來進一步指出那任何羈押的形式上的合法只要缺乏實質的必要性長期羈押就會違反無罪推定跟人身自由保障的這個原則那我們現行的這個形式訴訟法第108條規定那羈押最長可以達到兩個月"},{"start":786.664,"end":811.951,"text":"那審判期間的三個月並得延長但是這個民國17年至今都沒有在修有點不合時宜因為蠻久的那司法實務當中呢那法院核准羈押的比例呢也很高大概達到八成那現況讓羈押不是一種例外性的強制處分反倒成為一個日常性的押人取供感覺好像是一種預防性的懲罰所以這樣的現象實施已經構成羈押的刑罰化"},{"start":816.272,"end":840.204,"text":"那 布小林對這件事情的一個看法呢報告委員 那個第一個首先就是委員講了這個人權公約這個我們那個司法院是絕對尊重那 其實在那個刑訴之外呢還有一個那個妥訴法它有關於那個羈押期間它其實也有做了一個那個限制所以說 有關於就是說這個公約上面"},{"start":841.784,"end":859.389,"text":"說不能夠長期那個羈押這一點在我國法治上事實上是有依循像我們的那個釋字第653號也有揭示嘛羈押應該屬於例外的這個手段然後不能濫用可是現在看起來很日常所以這個部分是不是有一些調整的空間"},{"start":862.641,"end":868.304,"text":"請委員指教哪一個部分需要調整空間因為在我們的刑事訴訟法第208條羈押我們講日本作為日本我們來當成一個範例它最長羈押20日那麼韓國的刑事訴訟法在203條跟205條也有類似的規範但是我們羈押會長達數月或長達而且還可以再延長"},{"start":886.713,"end":915.519,"text":"那這個差距其實跟其他國家比較起來我們的羈押期是有點過長那也顯示我們在整個體系上推動這有一點改革上的遲緩那我先就請教您三點那司法院你們認為現在的羈押制度是不是應該做修正這第一個然後第二個是那法院是不是可以要有效的實踐拒保責付電子監控等替代制度來落實羈押"},{"start":915.979,"end":935.95,"text":"作為最後手段的一個原則 您的看法謝謝委員的詮詢 其實那個委員所提的這個方向 我們在那個法院實務上確實也都是朝向這樣子在做的我想並沒有所謂 因為法院是審判端 並不會有委員所提到的就是押人取共 這樣子的一個現象那個存在啊"},{"start":936.69,"end":960.492,"text":"你們讓社會的一個法院最近的幾個案件讓社會的觀感是本席提出這樣一個問題很重要的一個來源所以您在講說積壓其實本來應該是最後的手段可是就如同本席剛才所講它已經讓大家感覺是一種日常當然也有因為案例的不同所以在執行上的"},{"start":962.333,"end":979.02,"text":"執行上的實質好像有一些差異喔所以我覺得普遍讓社會有這樣子的觀感那您說朝這樣一個方向在修正那麼但是在實務上跟方向的修正上理論的一個奠定上那您覺得這中間的差異可以怎麼樣來處理呢因為委員那個社會的觀感是如此但是你們又說在這個方向但是我們實質看到很多人他就會被積壓很長的時間啊"},{"start":991.031,"end":1013.475,"text":"因為這個個案我們沒辦法討論但是就是說羈押期間的長短他要是要整個看整個大的制度他現在有很多重刑犯罪就是我們有關於程序保障會越來越要求所以說都要做很多有關於精神上或者說各種的就是他救生能力的鑑定像這一種就是說像殺人犯好了"},{"start":1013.775,"end":1025.276,"text":"那你一去那個鑑定的時候事實上都有相當的那個時日如果說那個時間太短的話就是那個時間當中呢這個被羈押的人可能他的權益就受到一些衝擊喔"},{"start":1026.556,"end":1049.783,"text":"所以說這個重要的事就是最後就是法官的那個裁量權就是說這個個案有沒有必要那但是如果說是單純在整個現行的那個法制上把它縮短的話它會造成像那種重大的這種暴力犯罪或者是說這種集團性的詐欺或者說那個殺人案件他們很多需要就是要鑑定比較長時間去審理的時候它會造成它的困難"},{"start":1050.763,"end":1066.531,"text":"所以這中間的這個差異怎麼去做一個落差怎麼去做一個處理我想這也是很重要一個修整的一個方向最後最重要就是說我們整個羈押的制度是對人權跟人身的自由是最直接的一個干預所以當我們要求司法"},{"start":1069.172,"end":1095.924,"text":"機關來追求效率跟秩序的同時也要顧及程序正義跟人權人權不能在這裡面被無限制的一個犧牲所以是不是可以請司法院盡速提出本席剛才所講的是落差也好是需要檢討也好那麼明確來規劃修法的方向跟替代制度的一個落實的時程可以嗎可以將這樣子的報告就本席剛才所講的"},{"start":1096.764,"end":1117.97,"text":"方向實務上理論上的一個差異跟您剛才講的可能有不同的案例跟跟整個社會上對目前幾個重大案件我相信應該大家都有掌握那這個落差你們覺得應該怎麼去處理那這個部分可不可以做一個報告給本席可以的謝謝好那麼剛剛"}]}},{"id":"166121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6cb82c6cce21a18d7c7cefddca96be500a14720b4e10c82cb34c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:33:53 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請說次長"},{"start":173.35,"end":202.076,"text":"謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的說會不會是他有想要分期付款那你這個是不是阻斷他我想六個月的時間是經過我們大概實務上看法是一般的案件大概偵查三個月審判三個月抓這個數字那以前我們操作的結果我們讓他分期付款真的他一期二期等到判決以後他就不還那會造成被害人第二次的傷害所以我覺得這種分期付款的方式是不太可靠"},{"start":202.97,"end":214.44,"text":"我們這裡很重要一點是他是調解跟和解的全部金額所以不見得被害人需要全部賠償沒有我待會會說我的建議文字部分你們可以參考一下那在監所的部分的話我們這裡監所在他要假釋的話"},{"start":218.7,"end":238.57,"text":"他這個賠償被害的也是一個基準之一所以這個都是有助於他來賠償因為他在監所內我剛剛講了大部分的因為貴部的報告也是大部分都是屬於經濟弱勢的人他在監獄裡面做事情一天才幾百塊一個月勞作金幾百塊賠不了被害人所以我們今天會不會是國家的這個"},{"start":239.711,"end":267.149,"text":"善意的運作善意的對他的刑罰我們希望為這個國家社會安全好而把他抓去關但是反而讓被害人賠不到錢這是我擔心的點從事務的角度出發但是我沒有說這些人不該嚴懲這些人本來就要嚴懲還有齁這個我不希望說齁就好像是說這個病人急救要超過60分鐘太久了我趕快翻床褥所以我就不救我還是希望有機會讓被害人能夠拿回來錢"},{"start":268.25,"end":285.988,"text":"最好你讓他晚半年拿回來他只要拿得回來他什麼都好所以我一個建議啦就是第一個我希望我可以研究一下有沒有可能分級去減刑研究就好就說譬如說全額賠償的人跟至少已經賠了50%或長期願意旅行"},{"start":288.61,"end":311.267,"text":"就是分期賠償的有沒有不同的對待方式這研擬就好我沒有強制的要求第二個拉長期限你們說六個月對不對那會不會我們可不可以把改成40省顏值辯論終結前而不要強制定六個月當然你說這六個月是你們的那個數據上面的顯示但是如果我們把它認為把它變成是40省顏值辯論終結前會不會比較有彈性"},{"start":314.49,"end":328.51,"text":"這個請你們研究一下那很多時候反而有這個彈性的緩衝可以讓被告更有時間去籌錢去來賠要讓被告知道被害人的損失是我造成的我必須要負擔這個責任不好意思最後一個點"},{"start":329.997,"end":349.838,"text":"我一直思考大家包括今天在座行政機關我們要不要思考一個刑事禁捨令我有看到你們第50條有禁捨條款但禁捨條款它變成是一個作文比賽它變成是量刑參考但是我們可不可以去思考到一個點很重要的點我實務經驗得到了一個點我們可不可以用一個如果你沒有賠完錢"},{"start":350.879,"end":377.137,"text":"被抓到射死行為我們有一個刑事禁捨令直接撤銷緩刑 撤銷假釋因為目前沒有嘛目前雖然假釋這個行政上面可以撤銷你如果和解金沒有賠可以撤銷但是我們是不是可以有一個你今天如果說騙了錢即使你有在還和解的錢可是被我發現你還在外面大手大腳的花不願意立刻拿出來賠錢我一個刑事禁捨令下去依據這個可以撤銷緩刑或撤銷假釋"},{"start":378.547,"end":402.513,"text":"麻煩你們研究一下 我個人在實務 我的實務經驗告訴我這個東西對打詐絕對有效 請研究一下第二個 如果有高額消費 要直接視為犯罪所得有一些人他在外 他其實很多錢是藏在某個地方啊那等到他自由在外的時候 就開始大手大腳的花那我們是不是應該要把他視為犯罪所得優先還給被害人 而不要讓他再慢慢賠錢"},{"start":404.091,"end":422.242,"text":"好 那我覺得這才叫做打詐打詐 我絕對要求嚴懲打詐我不會反對嚴刑峻法但是不要留於形式主義要真的能夠有效那我覺得各位很多都是實務出身的會懂我在說什麼還有法務部麻煩再次檢討一下"},{"start":423.717,"end":446.103,"text":"定因執行刑這個法律上的設計這是死理法因為大家都知道一罪一罰就全國國人以為說你犯越多罰越重我跟各位報告啊不是這樣啊一罪一罰確實是你犯了100條詐欺是判100條沒錯但是在最後回到定因執行刑的時候又得到一個超級黑卡金卡然後大打折"},{"start":447.043,"end":457.837,"text":"又回去原來的很輕所以各位才會發現我騙了100次跟騙兩次三次刑度差不多在定音執行刑的時候差不多所以定音執行刑該不該"},{"start":459.093,"end":481.813,"text":"一律存在或是可不可以在我們打詐的時候跟原本的其他案件脫鉤請你們要思考一下我看到的詐欺犯常常一來詐欺多到要請事務官幫我做列表他要搞一個列表才能夠看他兩三百次的詐欺耶然後他的前科表跟百科全書一樣厚他也不在乎然後反正定義執行之後又跟"},{"start":482.854,"end":510.877,"text":"騙一兩次的人判的一樣那詐欺集團的律師也是這樣在告訴教這些被告的反正你騙兩次跟騙五百次都判的差不多重反正定因執行刑又會回到最低了所以搞到最後根本沒有打詐的效果我在這邊點出都是實務的問題麻煩各位能夠從這地方去研擬修法不然我不好意思我只能找各位立法委員大家一起來修這個法律這就是實務上面的問題好不好"},{"start":511.8,"end":514.15,"text":"那再麻煩兩位能夠注意這個部分好 謝謝 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部長你有沒有被騙過 你有沒有被詐騙過沒有 因為我比較簡約 所以很少很謹慎很謹慎 但是常常看到很多照片所以什麼都沒有被騙過 也沒有看過廣告然後所以下單買來的東西寄回來跟你不一樣我比較不會 任何一種類型都沒有我比較不會心動 電話也沒有我都沒有 沒有什麼心動 對哇 這部長你真的是一個非常簡約的人但我本人就被騙過啦 而且還被騙過不只一次"},{"start":38.641,"end":46.426,"text":"我第一次被騙的時候就在超商2020年然後呢就是有一個包裹然後就叫我去7-11就取貨那我當然坦白講我們有時候比較忙我們可能請秘書去幫忙請 領令那秘書也不知道我買什麼他就反正就把包裹領回來一打開以後我們就 啊這怎麼 我怎麼可能會買這種東西呢這種質詢台上我不想把它說出來好 總而言之我非常生氣說 我就去網路查然後說 遇到詐騙包裹要怎麼辦你猜 網路上叫我說什麼"},{"start":69.054,"end":83.501,"text":"報警找當地的立法委員我很生氣所以我立刻就跟警政署內政部一直盧就覺得說連我立法委員都會收到這種詐騙包裹那到底要怎麼辦呢那時間是2020年"},{"start":85.362,"end":90.527,"text":"好我們非常高興在2022年的時候政府部門內政部檢政署跟大家終於推出了跟超商物流業者推出了這樣的一個機制就是詐騙包裹處理機制也就是說呢一你看到危險的包裹你可以不用去領直接當然這個大家現在比較有意識了第二你如果真的還是領了的話那你在七天之內你可以去申請退貨"},{"start":109.406,"end":127.501,"text":"保留證據然後申請退款好不幸的我在今年呢其實又遇到了同樣的狀況我依然請秘書去領然後依然打開以後還是只是詐騙對他真的就是你是同一個秘書去領嗎同一個秘書去領對有一點那我們會跟這個秘書多溝通一下"},{"start":127.901,"end":131.582,"text":"本來這個就是因為已經四年了嘛所以他可能已經忘記了這樣好可是這一次因為有這個機制我們非常滿意1200就這樣拿回來了連我本人都非常非常的滿意在第二個禮拜我又收到包裹這次我學乖了我們不會去領了因為我們就很清楚的發現這類的包裹上面雖然寫著名字可是"},{"start":148.826,"end":172.696,"text":"寄贱人的地方他都刚好会有一个什么危险物品啊小心轻放啊等等刚好贴在寄贱人的部分把它遮住不会很清楚所以你也很难处理你也很难退钱又不太多所以你就会觉得与其这么麻烦不如就吞了吧但非常感谢有成立了这样一个机制所以我觉得其实面对诈骗这种事情"},{"start":173.636,"end":180.179,"text":"防不勝防政府要做的第一件事情就是讓詐騙的資訊可以減少讓我們一般人去接觸這種資訊的機會可以變少這是第一件事情第二件事情就是真的如果不幸碰到這樣的狀況的話那政府提供了一個機制讓我被詐騙到的錢有機會可以回來坦白講比抓到他更令我高興啦那個一千二回來我的心情真的是很好"},{"start":200.49,"end":212.135,"text":"所以我將心比心從一個一般人民的角度來看政府最應該做的是這樣的事情不知道你同意吧是非常同意非常同意嗎立法委員都這樣跟你說了誠摯的分享我的心情了也非常謝謝委員的對所以我們那時候成立了這個機制我覺得真的好好"},{"start":218.297,"end":220.959,"text":"那我們就來看我們現在還可以在做什麼我們在這個2023年的時候其實我們這樣已經打造四法這樣打造專法上路也已經超過一年了可是當時在第58條的時候有說一些特定的機制因為還需要溝通所以還暫緩實施嘛那部長我想請問一下那這一些"},{"start":239.195,"end":261.774,"text":"打詐專法的這些特定的狀況其實跟剛剛在說的減少詐騙的資訊被看見讓人民接觸的機會減少他接觸的機會非常非常的有關因為你看情節重大有關流量管制停止解析限制接取措施等等這些就是讓這種一夜市的詐騙廣告我可以給他限流我可以給他撤銷的這種機制"},{"start":264.136,"end":278.918,"text":"坦白講因為已經一年了都還沒有可以實施部長可不可以告訴我們大家問題是什麼報告委員我剛剛在報告的時候其實已經有報告過只是說我們停止這些解析或者限制接取的數量不夠多"},{"start":279.859,"end":298.588,"text":"也就是說我們的警政單位他是要依法來處理那如果有這樣報案確定成立的時候就會處理像我們剛剛的口頭報告也有跟委員報告過有多少間次但是間次不夠多也就是說我們提到了包括有人在反映像Meta也好 Google也好他們的廣告量真的是無限的多"},{"start":299.328,"end":315.853,"text":"所以我們不可能說看到Meta或看到Google不能說看到黑影就開槍我想這樣不好所以我們會跟委員講的部分就是針對不管是情節重大的部分的規範或者是停止解析跟限制接取我們還會持續努力但是也要跟委員報告"},{"start":316.913,"end":332.344,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害條例不能只有只有這個條例包括數位管理的平台包括資通安全的管理如果這三個的法律案如果能夠告訴我們可以更加規範清楚的話那警政機關就能夠根據法律的規範可以大力來取締這些詐騙"},{"start":334.184,"end":344.706,"text":"我完全同意所以我們現在第一大家會覺得說你是不是專法有這個部分還沒有上路所以你沒有辦法執行讓我減低所以今天就是藉著這個機會讓部長再次的表示但就算我們能夠理解你的狀況我們還是希望這個量可以取締的更多更好啦這是第一個部分嘛"},{"start":355.529,"end":358.99,"text":"好那但是第二個部分的話我們在討論今天要修法的部分的話其實我的見解就是回到剛剛跟部長說明一開始說的對於減少詐騙資訊是一件事情但是可以返還被詐騙的金額這對被害者來講其實是更重要的狀況所以今天在修法的當中"},{"start":376.235,"end":395.731,"text":"我本人也提出的版本其實就是著重在這一塊我們之前的版本出現本來是希望可以讓大家吐實讓案情可以繼續追蹤但卻發生了一個漏洞嘛所以在追返金額的這個部分修法的部分部長你可以跟我們解釋一下這一次修法的部分跟追返金額的部分有沒有哪一些法條是相關的"},{"start":397.332,"end":409.496,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員的關心我想各個委員幾乎都非常關心就是說剛剛也特別提到跟我們現在民眾他的如果被盜用或是交易糾紛或者是沒有實際交付他人使用的這個帳號能不能比較簡化他的流程讓他可以再重新使用那這個部分我們會把它變成說"},{"start":417.499,"end":434.25,"text":"究竟向戶籍地或者是公司所在地的警察分局來申請查處如果查明屬實不用等待司法終結的審判就可以解除那這個在民定三番詐騙的善意第三人案件可以進行解除的部分的話會兼顧到我們在防詐的政策跟人權保障上面"},{"start":437.432,"end":455.726,"text":"那這個部分呢也要謝謝委員能夠多支持我想這個可能是未來我們要走那個方向就是大家都看到很多如果你是警示帳戶那麼多的狀況之下希望能夠趕快解除但是呢我們第一線的同仁他來告訴我的部分是這樣子就是說他去警察局報案的時候他描述不清楚"},{"start":456.286,"end":471.287,"text":"他就丟一個帳號說我這是警示帳號你幫我解除但是我們的警察同仁問他說那你當時在為什麼被列為警示帳號能不能提供更正確的資訊讓警察人員來協助你那這個部分我想我們未來會多做宣導跟溝通"},{"start":472.108,"end":494.29,"text":"好 那我個人除了贊同部長你現在說的這個部分的話其實在第47條的前段規定過去是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自判如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得減輕其刑是因的這個部分那我認為這一次我們在修法把它改成得減刑我覺得這個非常好我自己提出的版本也是如此因為我們認為"},{"start":495.071,"end":524.558,"text":"不能够让他假借说我都没有所得就原例变成说一定可以减刑这个我觉得是不恰当的在实务经过了这样一年之后这个地方一定要改但我也更同意就是包括了部内现在提出行政院现在提出的新版本当中包含了一个新增条件就是被告在自首或自白后必须在六个月内与被害人达成和解或调解金额并全部支付才能适用减刑或免刑我觉得这部分其实是很好"},{"start":524.918,"end":541.192,"text":"因為就是增加了加速填補損害這樣的狀況是 這個是我們跟司法院溝通以後確定下來的草案所以這個地方也是民眾一般都在反應的啦那最後最後啦 再給我30秒的時間啦我想講一件事情再請部長 甚至是訴發部不用上來了啦 再爭取時間參考一下就是說我們現在有很多的詐騙是涉及虛擬資產的部分"},{"start":551.121,"end":561.525,"text":"那虛擬資產的部分其實大家可以看到其實非常多的平台其實都是境外平台那我簡單講 本來可以講很長就是我們在2025年9月的時候金管會的最新公告的部分剛剛應該是金管會 對不起我說錯了有18家未完成洗錢登記然後我們裁罰了6家的VSP裡面竟然有5家是在9月的時候就被金管會列入不得再提供虛擬資產服務的業者"},{"start":577.591,"end":581.355,"text":"這實在是蠻荒謬的耶就是我裁罰的六家裡面五家是說已經不得再提醒也就是說你一邊裁罰他他不能去不能來做這個事情了但他還是一直做所以你才去罰他金管會啦金管會金管會金管會金管會"},{"start":595.765,"end":607.934,"text":"好 所以我具體的建議啦我具體的建議是不是可以考慮像這個NCC在有國際來電的時候會在通話前有這個語音示警的狀況說這是國際電話請注意小心詐騙那我們是不是有機會在這種網路上面我們連進去的時候他就是可以加一個警語你即將連線的是高詐騙風險網域請小心我覺得這是技術上是可行的啦你只要回答方向不贊成技術我們可以再討論"},{"start":627.345,"end":650.122,"text":"是贊成另外簡單跟委員報告一下那個裁罰部分是因為他在提供服務的時候經過我們的檢查發現有缺失一律裁罰至於登記是因為在9月底之前沒有完成相關的法令程序所以包括內控制度沒有達一個標準所以不允許他登記所以兩件事情是一個在之前一個在之後好我想這部分比較複雜你這個部分直接交報告到我們辦公室來繼續討論麻煩你謝謝也謝謝部長謝謝恭喜你都沒有被騙過"}]}},{"id":"166119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6e97e364f4596120dc7cefddca96be500a14720b4e10c82cb7439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:10:55 - 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架了多少?有沒有要求下架成功過?我們目前來講已經要求下架有超過23萬則的詐騙廣告但是我沒有辦法去區分說是醫療或者是投資上我覺得啦"},{"start":114.01,"end":137.339,"text":"很多的數位平台或什麼這些政府不是沒有公權力去對付它只是政府的公權力沒有明顯的展現我真的覺得這個部分速發部還有各個相關的你們要拿出鐵腕政策不然我們再怎麼修法再怎麼樣你們不執行也沒有用"},{"start":138.753,"end":154.266,"text":"因為我們很認真在執行我跟你講你們很認真執行是你們自我感覺良好啦民眾沒有感覺你們很多啦我必須要這樣子講我們繼續努力那我為什麼會請這個劉部長部長你們會不會擔心啦"},{"start":160.191,"end":173.009,"text":"有一天我們現在都在宣傳反詐騙有一天可能我們警政相關單位的人也會被用AI去製造假影片用反詐騙"},{"start":175.757,"end":202.814,"text":"的這個用反詐騙去變成真詐騙你們會不會擔心擔心是不太能夠把事情處理好我們知道一定有這個方向那因為我們現在有在加強那個科技偵查的部分AI如果有這種反反詐騙的這個訊息影片出來的話我們的科技偵查會先抓出來這個要點然後要做處理"},{"start":204.219,"end":219.555,"text":"部長 這個用反詐騙去偵查騙他的樣態是會有非常多會有非常多的那我覺得我們現在包括警政署包括什麼他現在這個廣告用實例的我一直稱讚覺得很好"},{"start":220.222,"end":237.318,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們也可以先打預防針錢都在那邊了我們有這些廣告的投放量部長你覺得有沒有需要先打預防針要先跟所有的民眾講只要有冒充警政高層甚至部長的這一種的"},{"start":242.028,"end":257.975,"text":"如果他用反詐騙的然後去行徵詐騙的要先提醒民眾要預防你覺得有沒有必要謝謝委員的關心我想委員非常清楚我們以前這個打詐釋法還沒出來之前很多人是冒用名人"},{"start":258.775,"end":275.59,"text":"名人推荐投资现在还有现在还有很多但是这个部分在我们的这个打诈司法过了以后其实我们就是捡紧掉一起来努力那未来如果AI包括说您提到了也许有声位这影片也会出来的话我们也会提前来预防"},{"start":277.475,"end":292.302,"text":"先講說不太可能就好像說最近我也看到就是這個台積電的這個創辦人張忠謀先生他也對外講說他從來不會有臉書這樣一句話就已經把所有的這些所謂的詐騙用他的名字要來做這個詐騙的行為的話"},{"start":293.843,"end":307.211,"text":"就講完了但是大家都知道這個道高一尺謀高一丈還是會有人繼續做所以我們在網路的巡檢上面的我們的警政系統其實是非常認真在巡檢希望能夠把假的訊息或者是這種詐騙的這個影片能夠及早把它下架"},{"start":311.812,"end":324.656,"text":"那部長你們警政署有推一個民眾檢舉車手獎勵有這個政策那有沒有想過民眾如果檢舉像這種AI詐騙或什麼這種的"},{"start":329.299,"end":344.95,"text":"要不要也給民眾一些獎勵那要立法院支持這個獎勵金要拜託立法院支持因為我們現在獎勵金額是很多企業集團在捐款的那目前獎勵的金額大概會有一定程度啦"},{"start":345.31,"end":370.422,"text":"武藤先生你要獎勵五萬塊有人願意檢舉那獎勵五千塊大概不會有人要檢舉啦所以我們會來討論我覺得可以討論我覺得像不一樣我覺得可能如果真的要全民防詐啊你們有好的政策我們立法院一定支持啊對不對尤其是預算麻煩一下一定支持啊好齁那再來啦齁這個啊我可能請警政署長"},{"start":371.789,"end":386.624,"text":"那個署長我發現有越來越多這種詐騙集團他不管是車手不管或人頭或什麼的他開始找很多弱勢 聾啞人士街友什麼的這些當人頭"},{"start":388.024,"end":415.896,"text":"你們有沒有發現這個問題有 我們對於這個詐騙集團他找的車手他就是不斷在演變我們有發現到這些會對這個弱勢的那我想就是對於弱勢的這些的狀況我們大概就是當然就是從源頭也要是去做對於他們這一些的社福的這個團體或者就去這方面的一個加強的宣導這第一個那第二個我們當然要去做"},{"start":416.676,"end":419.199,"text":"這個都是你講的方法你們實際做了多少"},{"start":436.194,"end":456.486,"text":"我想這個部分我再做細緻的統計車手的這個部分到目前為止就是114年大概有朝有353人這樣的一個狀況那有關弱勢的部分我們可能就是會後看是不是把它分析出來再提供給委員"},{"start":459.332,"end":477.311,"text":"我問你這個我不是要求數據署長有一個問題我認為你現在要及早處理他除了我剛講的什麼芒芽人是什麼什麼這些之外他們已經把手伸到低收入戶去了"},{"start":478.567,"end":501.132,"text":"尤其很多低收入戶可能是年紀很大或什麼不知道他用另外一個他也是有可能去詐騙他而取得他的人頭帳戶他也不是本身願意的那如果低收入戶變這樣子我跟你講他有可能他的銀行被凍結被什麼他連補助比什麼他都領不到喔這個是未來我認為會很嚴重的問題喔"},{"start":503.641,"end":522.458,"text":"所以署長我認為這個你們要及早處理你們要跟所有社福黨或什麼你們要及早去處理這個問題不然你會衍生出非常多的社會問題署長你我們有發現就是這些弱勢的就是他有可能是被愛人"},{"start":523.795,"end":533.162,"text":"也可能就是不是啦這個都知道嘛你們現在有什麼具體的做法我想我的做法就是會從這一個我們的他的主政單位去了解他整個的狀況就是他的社福團體或者是他的就業服務的這個主管機關我們來就圓妥的去做去做這樣的一個宣導這種情形再來就是當然就是要偵查嘛"},{"start":553.457,"end":571.297,"text":"就是兩個部分一個從源頭來處理一個就是從偵查來做一個處理署長我覺得你剛剛的這個回答你已經了解了問題但聽不出來有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":573.131,"end":597.891,"text":"我覺得啦你已經發現了這個問題你跟社政跟其他單位什麼源頭什麼的我覺得我們要跟全國人講我們政府的具體作為是什麼我覺得這樣人家才有一個依循嘛對不對這不是說你現在就馬上要怎麼樣我覺得給你三個月的時間你們去研究"},{"start":598.496,"end":625.768,"text":"看要去如何處理你也可以跟社政單位你只要每個月要來領錢要來什麼的我就給你一個單子前幾個我就給你一個單子現在有什麼絕對不要怎麼樣甚至在銀行發錢的或什麼你上面就給他寫我覺得有很多方式我覺得給你們時間你們去研究看看"},{"start":626.843,"end":626.863,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166099","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166099","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6139ef7ea32608cea09a18256bf6bdfeb7be3e8fe055fbc131a06a885b33e9f7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:13:39 - 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主委我們剛爆發不久的太子集團的跨國洗錢案我想請教主委是不是有查出那個主謀陳志利用境外公司在台設立OBU就是境外金融中心賬戶然後將這個賬款匯入天緒國際尼爾公司來洗錢其實有沒有這個事情"},{"start":26.906,"end":42.806,"text":"其實跟我們報告他整個的那個金流是非常非常複雜那確實主要的資金都是從國外就是有查出這件事吧他利用OBU的帳戶來匯入他的沒有我想這些相關的資料他在台設立的虛擬的公司有沒有這回事"},{"start":44.426,"end":69.931,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我想從媒體揭露的事實裡面確實它在台灣設了非常非常多的公司這事實那也透過一些我們OBU帳戶對 它也有用OBU帳戶但是很多的比如它就進到了這個比如說我們的這些公司它就按照這個境外資金透過各種的國家跟帳戶跟管道進到這邊我想這個大概都是這個在報紙上都有做一些揭露了"},{"start":70.211,"end":85.363,"text":"設立OBU原來的目的是政府為了加強國際金融活動建立區域金融區域性的金融中心以吸引國內外法人投資的一個金融單位因此也給予開立OBU的境外公司享有"},{"start":87.065,"end":110.164,"text":"帳戶享有存款的利息免稅資金進出不受外匯管制利率定價較新台幣客戶彈性高密度高度的隱密性但是我們現在看到卻變成犯罪者的詐騙洗錢工具與管道所以我想問的就是說由太子集團的案子"},{"start":110.845,"end":130.25,"text":"我们可以很清楚的看到我们国内ABU存在着很高的一个制度性风险虽然目前有国际金融业务条例作为控管的一个法律依据但显然已经不足以遏止各种新式的诈骗与洗钱的手法"},{"start":131.07,"end":145.729,"text":"所以請教主委關於OBU的管自衛避免器成為洗錢的一個管道目前法令的規定是否有需要重新審視調整的地方陳主委我跟你講我們這個案發以後呢我們有請文明銀行局這個"},{"start":147.987,"end":155.789,"text":"仔細的找各個相關的銀行來做探討我想請局長簡單報告一下他們討論的結果兩點 兩個重點委員剛剛有關切到OPU整個就是說在帳戶管控上的一個風險事實上我們在2018年接受APG第三輪評鑑的過程當中我們國家風險報告裡面就已經先界定OPU是相對來講是高風險"},{"start":171.132,"end":197.019,"text":"所以当有这样的界定之后我们金管会就采取一连串的相关的措施要求银行在针对OBU开户跟开户之后的相关审查进行了一系列的严控的一个措施那在至于太子集团这个个案的部分其实它开立的这个账户大部分都还是在国内境内的一个部分但针对境内的部分我们先前已经有召开银行"},{"start":197.519,"end":214.889,"text":"市長我這樣問你好了因為時間的關係所以我們現在太子集團這個案子發生之後我們是否有去檢視OBU的金融機制存在有哪些漏洞會被這些犯罪集團利用來洗錢那你如何把這些漏洞把它補起來有沒有做這方面的一個檢討"},{"start":215.529,"end":237.444,"text":"有跟委員報告這個部分我們也會在這個月我們會再邀集銀行跟我們就是法務部的洗錢防支署大家一起過來開會就整個事件的過程當中銀行在相關的不管是申報或者是可疑教育賬戶的一個偵測有沒有可以提升之處我們都有後續的一個製作我希望你們要加強"},{"start":238.024,"end":255.34,"text":"就是我們面對這樣的跨境詐騙洗錢犯罪我們強化跨境金流的監理與OBU的透明度我覺得這是刻不容緩你們要馬上去做另外我們針對今天審查銀行法的修法"},{"start":256.221,"end":273.99,"text":"當然主要我們要區分說小額地下匯兌者與巨額吸金者的一個良形情況當然這個我們看到因為人民受害案件這個比較多的或者頻率比較高的規模比較大的主要是對於這些吸金的一個情況"},{"start":275.391,"end":293.641,"text":"我想考量我們金融犯罪太猖狂金融犯罪正在數位化 跨境化但監理的能力是否有嚴重落後所以我要詢問主委目前詐欺與吸金犯罪橫行金流偵查能力是否足夠"},{"start":295.034,"end":322.005,"text":"我想委員提到一個是否足夠呢我們當然是在持續在精進中除了我們銀行局檢察局人力我們在數位查核的部分我們也持續在建我們的團隊而且過去已經有開始運作也有很好的那個除了如果是在犯罪地在境外的話我們有什麼措施可以來偵辦或者可以明確掌握這些抓團的行為預防有更多受害者來上當"},{"start":323.152,"end":340.94,"text":"當然境外的部分我們也必須要透過國際的合作才有辦法這部分的話我們只能針對我們境內的金流的話主要還是以境內金流為主政府有沒有什麼設備或專業人才能有效掌握這些虛擬資產或是用非法吸金的一個洗錢管道"},{"start":341.676,"end":368.961,"text":"其實就是犯罪的手法不斷在精進我剛才跟委員也報告過其實我們不管我們在檢察局也開始建構一些數位查核的這個團隊跟能力過去我們也在很多地方也在做像比如說對於剛才講那個虛擬資產的部分我們也跟比如警大合作針對一些比如說一些科技的工具我們也都在應用中我想檢體機關確實沒有錯我們受限於人力跟預算的問題但是我們已經盡力在做這件事"},{"start":370.237,"end":398.914,"text":"都尽力在做了最后一个问题来请问今天的一个主题银行法的修正关于银行法第125条的规范实际上它有包含三种不同罪质的行为在一个条文内做一个相同的处罚其实吸金诈骗的规模它是等于它的犯罪所得我想这是毋庸置疑的但是地下会对金额的规模跟它实际犯罪的所得落差极大"},{"start":399.694,"end":405.742,"text":"所以這兩個犯罪行為它的一個形態實際上是不同的所以這種"},{"start":407.833,"end":433.696,"text":"就是吸金行為我們看來他的犯罪的一個受害者眾多危害社會的程度可以說是非常大跟地下會對這些從事地下會對業者他實際的所得就沒有那麼多在一個刑法的考量之下所以我們是不是在這種不同的一個損害的一個程度以及他所得不一樣的情況之下用同樣的良心來處罰"},{"start":435.137,"end":454.322,"text":"是否有違反我們罪行相當的原則也違反比例的原則以及公平正義我先問主委你的意見再請法務部廖參事來回答我現在這個問題謝謝委員的指正當然在過去社會上有不同的見解我想我們在司法見解這樣應該是統一的就是說"},{"start":456.743,"end":469.492,"text":"某種程度假設我站在金管會立場我們認為這個非法吸金當然危害跟那個非法地下匯兌應該是他都是非常非常嚴重的會影響到金融安定跟金融秩序的這樣一個行為"},{"start":470.598,"end":492.498,"text":"那如果說今天呢換成就是從原來的這個整個會對的金額來量刑的基礎換成是一個所謂手續費的話那其實某種程度在不管在社會氛圍還有在現在的犯罪形態的來看的話我們是覺得不太適合這個時候反正有鼓勵人家說這個來做這個東西那我這只要以那個"},{"start":493.439,"end":509.302,"text":"手續費就像我們最近看那個車手他們就說那我只是拿那個幾千塊啊這個但是對社會危害的整體而言對金融秩序的挑戰跟安定我想這個我們從金管會的角度我們還是比較支持司法的見解還有現在我們的條文的內容"},{"start":509.682,"end":526.62,"text":"好 那請法務部我想法務部是對法律的條例的解釋比較精準的一個主管機關所以對這樣一個良行不同的行為的態樣不同的所得的一個的情況之下做同樣的良行處罰這有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":527.401,"end":552.021,"text":"是 委員好那地下會對在某一些個案上它的業者的不法所得可能會有高有低不過在銀行法29條第一項還有125條的規範目的從這個角度上來看它關注的不值業者的不法所得高低的問題它同時還包含了"},{"start":553.226,"end":574.845,"text":"維護整個國家金融特許管理甚至關係到洗錢房制還有外匯管制等等很多的金融面向的法益的保護所以簡單來講我們主要是政策上的考量而不去考量說刑法體系的一個刑法的精神"},{"start":575.686,"end":592.367,"text":"不是沒有考慮性我們政策考量認為說地下匯兌的行為因為地下匯兌的行為影響整個未來我們就是說金融監管的一個秩序就是說地下匯兌的行為它的規範但是我想時間的關係我再最後一問一下就是說"},{"start":593.984,"end":621.433,"text":"銀行法實際上這樣規定就看起來好像違反法律的一個體系針對這種良心完全不一樣犯罪型態所得也不一樣的情況之下你硬要把它認為說刑度是相同有看起來是違反罪行相當原則跟比例原則就形態上來看所以現在反而很多事物上就認為這個人如果他所得就沒有那麼多結果你判他那麼重所以會有侵犯法中心判他更輕的一個刑度所以我從另外一個角度看"},{"start":622.333,"end":632.169,"text":"我們的洗錢防治法有沒有針對這種地下會的行為涉及洗錢的行為有另外的一個良心的就另外的規定的處罰規定 有沒有"},{"start":635.288,"end":656.551,"text":"各位委員報告洗錢防治它本身就是說地下會對它如果有涉及洗錢那當然它另外又觸犯到洗錢防治法上相關的這個刑責那地下會對如果沒有涉及到洗錢的所以我現在就針對牛許廷委員他現在把這個地下會對這種"},{"start":659.333,"end":683.654,"text":"就是如果說涉及的金額超過一億以上就跟吸金金額超過一億以上加重的一個處罰的規定是不是這個就應該把它區隔開來如果洗錢防止法已經有相關的規定那你對這種地下匯兌的實際所得它要超過一億以上才給它這個加重要以實際作為要件你的看法是怎樣跟委員說明"},{"start":685.775,"end":712.273,"text":"觸犯洗錢罪跟單純的地下會對這是兩個不同的犯罪就是說經營地下會對他不當然就是會同時觸犯洗錢罪那如果有當然兩者都構成嘛那如果他沒有構成洗錢但是單純就是從事地下會對業者就是回到刑法那個銀行法上的125條的規定來處罰嘛"},{"start":714.855,"end":735.71,"text":"所以這兩者並沒有衝突所以你贊成這個修法我想請教你的意見作為我們未來討論的一個定論所以你是贊成還不贊成我想聽聽你的意見目前委員的版本就站在我們刑罰的精神那個角度針對會隊的部分它是在125條第一項"},{"start":738.192,"end":765.223,"text":"去限縮他加重就是以億元的計算就以實際所得來計算對 他以實際所得來核算但是呢實際所得從立法說明上來看意思就是指業者的實際犯罪所得對啊那這樣的話一般我們事務上不是也是要這樣算人家的犯罪所得嗎就過去我是以在法律界我們覺得我們要罪行要不能違反他的比例原則嘛還有罪行相當原則我既然賺這麼多錢"},{"start":766.684,"end":787.593,"text":"我沒有算到那麼疑義你硬要講說什麼這個我根本就想剛才主委講的詐欺當然是不容我們完全是不容許的但是我們在良心上面法官一定會有做不同的一個考量所以從良心的一個角度上面你的看法是怎麼樣跟委員報告就是說犯罪所的銀行法125條一項"},{"start":790.297,"end":796.434,"text":"所以這是政策的考量我是問你這是不是因為尊重主管機關的政策考量是不是"},{"start":797.703,"end":826.626,"text":"就是說他在整個金融犯罪的立法設計上各自不同類型他有一定刑度的均衡性那這個部分如果有某一部分是不是要差異化他的刑度要個別的差異化那這個涉及到整個金融管理政策的整體評估我們當然要尊重主管區分的意見我們尊重金管會的意見好 以上謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林召委 謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"166097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6fe93a38ba5e306f50bc060c38740833e7be3e8fe055fbc135a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:13:29 - 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希望次長您說到也這樣子努力我們運動部成立性別平等專案小組在運動部的臉書上面有說了運動部的性平小組有幾項工作其中推動性別平等政策及提升運動領域的性別環境剛剛本席提到運動賽事的轉播"},{"start":221.096,"end":240.201,"text":"所以說希望次長你可以更全面的提升我們運動賽事中女子組運動賽事的這個轉播讓女孩可以被看見即便這些狀況不是故意的但是這真的也是凸顯了我們的台灣的運動文化在這個運動性平意識上是有空白的那接下來要請教次長"},{"start":241.101,"end":256.352,"text":"禁忌运动应该也会是急需提升性别意识的场域那为什么我们禁忌司没有在性品小组的名单里面抱歉我谁知道谁来回答"},{"start":258.512,"end":277.173,"text":"當時是所以沒有人能回答因為我們裡面我們內部的因為他必須要有內部委員跟外部的委員所以當時我們在選擇這些的時候我們在挑選的時候就是從我們內部的一些主管來挑選你這樣的說法 你這樣的回答"},{"start":280.543,"end":302.991,"text":"如果性平小組要期許自己這麼多的目標這麼多的推動項目好那本席覺得納入競技師是非常必要的因為在多個多數個需要提升性別意識的場域呢競技運動其實是非常的需要提升性別意識那市長您覺得現在我們現在我們把競技師納入這個有沒有問題有問題嗎有困難嗎"},{"start":310.1,"end":319.894,"text":"沒有困難啦我們會努力去做到這樣的事情啦因為現在是名單上面我沒有辦法回答為什麼競技室好那這樣子惠厚你告訴我為什麼那你告訴我什麼時候納入好不好"},{"start":321.195,"end":340.112,"text":"好 市長為了督促運動部可以更積極地在運動平權的努力我建議了運動部你們應該設置運動性評獎目前運動性評相關的獎項是包含在運動推手獎的特別獎裡面而且已經三年沒有相關得獎者"},{"start":341.633,"end":358.731,"text":"甚至说这个特别奖还不是专属的奖项而是跟其他项目一起本席希望说运动部你们可以考量设置运动性平奖或是运动平权奖对我们自己业务执行一个激励也是一个目标可以吗我们纳入考虑"},{"start":360.03,"end":389.105,"text":"另外我也希望说为了让关心运动性贫的民众更了解运动部对于运动性贫的努力本席也希望说运动部你们这边考量设置运动性贫年报这个部分要纳入预算的使用参赛以及专业人力的状况那也可以设置运动平权的年报这个部分你们可以研议吗可以我们刚刚承诺我们在每一年的年底当然今年不会有了明年的话我们会去制定这一个平权的年报"},{"start":390.031,"end":409.729,"text":"好 這個你們可以那這邊呢我最後我來問一下次長您覺得對城鄉的運動平權的問題根據體育署114年運動統計顯示彰化縣113年度的規律運動人口是所有縣市倒數第二低大概只有三成的民眾有規律運動的習慣那"},{"start":412.411,"end":417.236,"text":"彰化縣民在113年度平均享有的運動體育運動經費也只有540元次長你覺得說運動經費這個低落這個資源跟設施跟民眾的運動習慣是不是有關聯"},{"start":428.846,"end":436.731,"text":"你也覺得好運動部成立有一個很大的目標就是要推廣全民運動在運動習慣比較落後的這些現實我們運動部這邊是不是能夠提出讓民眾養成運動習慣的相關政策"},{"start":444.736,"end":464.366,"text":"我們會根據這樣的調查結果我會拜託我們全民署專門針對這些相對比較數字比較低的縣市個別去跟地方政府去做討論因為推動端是在地方政府政策端我們會從上面來支持的確從盧委員所說的我們要多做一些事情讓那些比較少運動的人能夠增加運動的習慣"},{"start":465.667,"end":479.489,"text":"這個方向是正確的你跟地方政府來討論到底他們需要的是經費設施還是怎樣的計畫來推動那這個部分呢我希望說運動部你們研議一下在三個月之內提出書面報告給本席辦公室那這邊我要再回來跟您討論關於我們"},{"start":482.296,"end":505.702,"text":"競技師沒有納入性評小組這個部分剛剛我講了你會後告訴我為什麼他沒有納入然後你要告訴我說你們在這個過程裡面到底競技師他沒有納入他的困難都是在哪裡然後你們之後要怎麼規劃怎麼做你一定要給我很詳細的你們的報告而且你要給我"},{"start":506.702,"end":526.047,"text":"清楚的說明因為我覺得你這樣回答我沒有辦法接受我們今天的這個專報就是要落實性平落實平權就你告訴我說這個在禁忌禁忌這個場域是最容易遇到說是這個性別意識會有落差的你告訴我說他沒有納入然後"},{"start":528.342,"end":551.513,"text":"我们这个专案小组其实是整体的看待整个运动部内部的法规跟制定推动业务的时候到底有没有遵守到这个性平的一个标准所以不论是哪一个人被部长指派到这个地方来成为委员我们会努力的朝性平的角度来推动我们的业务"},{"start":553.24,"end":570.488,"text":"運動 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就是他現在來講的話現在我們的司法見解都是已經是以比如說假設以地下會對就是地下會的金額不是會對的手續費不是他所得嘛不是他賺什麼手續費啦或是什麼樣之類的不是吧 就是因為這樣子範圍才會大嘛 對不對"},{"start":55.122,"end":72.484,"text":"對 就是它不是只是那個金手的手續費而已對啊 那如果因為因為我看委員的提案這好像是把它限縮了本來是說你那個這個你知道金手的這個這些金額一定比實際上你獲取的這個利益還要多嘛"},{"start":72.944,"end":90.292,"text":"就是如果按照委員提案的文字修正多了個實際兩個他就變成實際犯罪嘛那不是整個都說限縮了嗎對就是說他可能就是從從剛才講的那個整個的比如說會對的金額可能就實際他就以他所得可能就手續費或是他中間的報酬對"},{"start":91.352,"end":112.282,"text":"對啊 那這樣不是對於說我們要比如說要來這個打詐啊或是這一個限制這一個地下會對啊那這些不是產生了這一個不利的影響嗎所以我們就認為當時我們在立法的那個情境跟意旨並沒有任何的更動之前我們是建議維持原條文對啊 因為我看這一個法務部的這一個"},{"start":114.029,"end":138.359,"text":"說明也是一樣就是說希望能夠維持現在這個營養法的這一個原本的條文對不對我想司法的判決也是經過很冗長的大家的辯證得到這樣那個結論好對啊我是看了有委員的這提案我發現說奇怪那不是把這一個這個他的這一個行為把它限縮成這個實際犯罪所得嗎那這樣不是變成說我們打劫範圍變更小嗎"},{"start":140.68,"end":155.735,"text":"確實我們在報告上有提到這有點降低我們對這個未來處罰的條件當然也有提到就是說是否符合一定的比率各種不同的見解都有但是我們從過去的司法實務上已經收斂到就是原來是以那個金額為主"},{"start":156.96,"end":181.48,"text":"好 那再請教一下主委目前我們有三家純網路銀行 對不對有這一個連線銀行 將來銀行還有樂天銀行 是的那這三家其實目前都還是虧損當中三家網銀到9月底的統計累計虧損達到87億 對不對那按照主委的這一個看法的話那是不是網銀還會持續的虧損下去"},{"start":182.901,"end":208.336,"text":"我想從一個經營的角度來看因為他們成立的時間比較短那當然市場上已經有一些已經有佔有一些優勢的競爭者在裡面我想說對一個新的金融機構來講不太可能很短時間就能夠獲得那時間因為有四五年了嘛對 但是我們也看到就是說不管是性平機構或是對其中的部分已經持比較正面的態度而且我們也看到他們的有"},{"start":209.136,"end":228.801,"text":"有些銀行已經開始營運已經慢慢地顯現出當時的目的我想站在金管會的立場我們既然已經開放這個業態我們當然也希望說它能夠在市場上提供它的價值所以我們在過去我們也針對它的業務範圍做合理的調整我想這部分我們會持續來做"},{"start":229.701,"end":246.003,"text":"那請教主委那現在就是說這個樂天銀行它到那個年底虧損可能會到達這個30億已經達到這個資本的三分之一的這個快達到它的法定的紅線了那這個那金管會有做什麼樣的一個處理嗎"},{"start":246.664,"end":269.042,"text":"沒有 當然是這樣這是我們根據那銀行法的規定就是說今天來講你超過了三分之一就要提這個計畫那目前有提計畫嗎現在還不到三分之一這還是二十七 二十八左右對啊 那也快接近了吧我們也關切這件事情說我們在很多場合裡面我們都說其實你要注意這件事情因為這個是所以都是僅此於這個口頭提醒他們而已不是 這個就是"},{"start":269.682,"end":294.872,"text":"依照法律就是這樣來做的就是說他沒有到你一到就按照規定就來跟我們申報跟我們說明而且我們就會開始採取更多那在此之前沒有採到三分之一紅線之前你們就是那就是法律的規定就是口頭跟他講就是說你們快到這樣子這個就是法律其實他們也知道嘛對不對那他們有提什麼政治的計畫嗎或是怎麼樣的我想從很多媒體上你看到他們也也有提出這樣一個構想"},{"start":297.033,"end":311.918,"text":"但是僅止於構想但是它是內部公司治理事項本來就是這樣因為目前還沒有查到你們那個監管會的紅信就對了我們的法律非常的明確因為我看到那一個它主要大股東是國票金那國票金它就說這一個"},{"start":314.52,"end":341.719,"text":"國票金的最大的股東也是公股公股銀行願意增資才願意跟進增資有聽到這種說法嗎不過我想是這樣因為主要是根據金控法五十三條就是說金控公司對他的子公司本來就有代為籌資的義務以他持股比率其實這個樂天有五十一是日資四十九是本國資本其中就是在本國各個就是國票金的持股大概是這樣"},{"start":342.68,"end":366.412,"text":"所以他增資的部分國票金的增資的義務就是49%就是根據這個那其他就是應該是公司他們要來做這件事情所以假設依法他的義務就是根據金融法覆三條就是按照比率好那剛才有提到說這一個鬆綁這件事情因為其實這一個惠譽這一家顧問公司也提到就是說那如果能夠再做一些政策上面的一些鬆綁的話"},{"start":367.532,"end":394.538,"text":"那其實是可以讓這些純網路銀行他們的營運能夠更健全我不曉得說在金管這方面對於純網路銀行的政策這方面有沒有任何鬆綁的可能性其實我想說委員很關注這一題我在認為像我們在去年提出金融科技發展的五策略裡面我們就有一個支持網路金融"},{"start":395.686,"end":408.273,"text":"所以當然包括我們的網營的部分我們就開放這三家那接下來我們的數位保險公司正在申請中我想這個部分我們是支持所謂市場上有一個創新的動能但是我們要維持市場公平的競爭因為"},{"start":410.529,"end":430.903,"text":"存網營那他本身的條件完全比照銀行只是他的經營業務範圍我們會持續在合理的範圍之內比如說我們對他的法案開戶房貸業務連貸這案子呢這些東西呢我們都會把它透過業務事辦的方式現在有開放了對不對有有有有沒有哪些還準備可以開放的我們會跟他們協商就是站在因為他就是"},{"start":432.144,"end":459.744,"text":"100億的公司他就資本條件什麼都一樣那我們是希望說他維持他在市場上比如提供創新服務的價值這是我們當初開放他最重要的這樣的意義但是其他我們覺得說怎麼樣做對客戶是好的或是怎麼樣這個風險可控的情況之下我們盡量的讓他做到跟一般的銀行是可以公平競爭我想我們朝這個方向來走就是說他要跟他公平競爭那一定有些業務也是跟現在的銀行是一樣的"},{"start":460.584,"end":479.219,"text":"但是金管又希望他能夠做一些創新性的當然 當時我們開放就像我們開放數位保險公司都是一樣你如果無法帶來這個市場上那我意思是說現在是正面表列說你哪些可以做對不對現在應該講說他過去就這個名字那有沒有說有哪些不能做的其他都可以做"},{"start":479.939,"end":495.851,"text":"這部分我們就透過逐步示範跟他們討論的方式我們在做調整所以這也是為什麼我們這個性平機構會對這個東西持一個比較正向的看法他是希望說如果金管會能夠做一些政策上的鬆綁的話未來可能是朝正面的發展可是我這樣聽好像"},{"start":498.272,"end":517.258,"text":"好像還沒什麼比較具體的東西出來就像我剛剛跟委員報告的我們已經透過就是實際上他們就是可以比如說過去我們法案開戶一定要都透過線上我們還有就是房貸業務還有連貸業務現在已經有的啦我們還會持續的再去跟他們討論就是說有些什麼他們的需要在我們政治同意的範圍之內我們來做一些調整"},{"start":518.078,"end":532.679,"text":"好 那最後再問你這個有關電子支付全支付它最近有發生了一些盜刷的事情那你們也要求說它在17號11月要提出書面報告有提出書面報告了嗎"},{"start":533.83,"end":560.825,"text":"我想这个是我们的所有的重大事故通报的标准程序那我想说对啊那彭局长还有有提出书面报告了吗因为刚好接二连三都是全师傅来来彭局长有那个跟委员报告这个他也循重大好发通报程序他已经有把相关报告报过来那事实上这个应该是说在之前就已经发生过的一个案件那因为他当时要做系统的更换他有一些测试区的资料那被留出去"},{"start":561.305,"end":589.833,"text":"所以相關的不管是跟客戶之間的一個和解啦或者是他後續強化的一個管控措施那流出去的資料有多少因為他那個是在測試區那詳細的數字我是不是再跟委員報告因為那個資料是非常有限而且相關的資料事實上是有做一些比較隱蔽的方式來呈現那損失的金額有多少被打出來的金額有多少"},{"start":591.178,"end":602.28,"text":"個案的部分就是它個案的部分就是總共啦 我就不是談個案啦我們的了解應該是39名的客戶有被冒名來使用那金額勒"},{"start":604.223,"end":626.128,"text":"金額的部分它回報大概是340萬左右那這個是系統性的呢那還是說有什麼樣的應該是說單一的一個事件也就是說它可能是在做相關業務擴展或者是系統轉換的過程裡面那被不法集團它以大量的方式傳送簡訊那怎麼會那麼剛好是它測試那段期間呢"},{"start":628.676,"end":652.383,"text":"可能就是可能詐團他也會看嘛當只要這個金融機構他有一些行銷活動或者是說有一些這個這個動作的時候他大概就是會比較趁虛而入啦這麼厲害喔就知道說他們現在在測試這個系統不過我們大概也觀察到就是說詐團他也會不特定的去選擇金融機構來攻擊那他攻擊的一個方式大概就是說以大量的方式來傳送簡訊"},{"start":653.883,"end":680.102,"text":"这个传送简讯的过程当中有些是真的是刚好金融机构的客户有些不是金融机构的客户那如果点了这些简讯那责任是在消费者身上还是在这个电子支付公司的身上对 因为过去我们从这个也是可以送评议的但是过去评议中心评议的结果因为通常都是民众主动的把他的相关账密交付给诈团所以在责任的分摊上面通常这个都"},{"start":680.282,"end":700.188,"text":"可是他這個會不會讓消費者不容易查出來就是說這個是屬於比如說是詐騙的一個釣魚的一個帳號對所以這個是我們加強要求金融機構要去加強宣導的部分因為他等於是做無差別式的一種攻擊好那相關的資料再請局長再跟我說明好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝李坤臣召委好接下來請李燕秀委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6dd1da2019d39abc6d25403dec583eac67be3e8fe055fbc131d84deb0c5e6415a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:22:45 - 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謝謝我們在這邊首先先請部長"},{"start":18.36,"end":37.781,"text":"委員好 是 部長好我們今天其實就是聚焦討論有關於民法的第1223條裡面有關於涉及到兄弟姊妹特留份的規定當然這個議題剛剛前面幾位委員也都有提到了然後也聆聽了法務部"},{"start":38.502,"end":60.521,"text":"的做法就是你們基本上看起來是在4月份就先做了一個委託研究案那預計也會在今年年底的時候會提出那但是呢針對就是你們對於這個案子的處理那本席當然是有些意見因為成如就是你們在先前報告裡面有講事實上這個議題早在多年前"},{"start":61.121,"end":80.887,"text":"其實就已經有過討論當時也有提過相關的法案的修正那麼在這一次我們這個立法院很多的委員其實在上個會期吧就都已經陸續提出了有關於兄弟姊妹特留份等等的相關的修正規定那理論上應該是法務部要趕快的把這個議題然後自己"},{"start":85.228,"end":109.266,"text":"內部也要有一個立場 一個態度做委託研究固然重要但是我想其實就這個議題部分就現行的很多的法律的資料文件的閱讀等等法務部自己內部就可以做了是不是有必要非得要等到委託研究案的成果報告出來之後你們再提法案"},{"start":110.697,"end":134.737,"text":"難道防護部自己沒有立場嗎當然我們內部會有討論嘛但是一個委託原狀我們在4月份已經委託了那即將在10月份還是4月份4月份嘛其實都已經差不多半年了因為大概報告會在12月底會出來那我想因為這次的範圍是蠻大的不是只有單只有那個特留份的問題包括遺囑的包括印記份的"},{"start":135.197,"end":138.38,"text":"等等的 所以你們這次的委託研究範圍是不是只有涉及到食肆流販的問題還包含其他的其他的這個遺囑啊 撫養權的這些問題有嗎 有涉及到撫養權嗎撫養權的這部分是一個"},{"start":153.092,"end":174.552,"text":"这个抚养的这个部分就是一个贡献度的问题嘛对 因为这也是本席接下来要谈的就是说涉及到兄弟姐妹特留份规定的这个修正那么事实上也有可能会影响到另外一个议题就是一四里面亲属的互付抚养义务"},{"start":175.152,"end":179.075,"text":"在親屬互附養義務裡面包含兄弟姊妹之間也互附養義務那麼在1117條裡面又提到受養權利者的話是以不能夠維持生活而無謀生能力者為限因此其實有些民眾有意見認為說如果說刪除兄弟姊妹的特留份之後那麼是不是對於親屬之間特別是針對兄弟姊妹互附養義務的"},{"start":203.735,"end":223.841,"text":"這個條文也要有一些修正那麼如果說是我們認為說是對於沒有維持生活能力沒有謀生能力的兄弟姊妹必須要撫養的話那麼特留分的部分是不是也應該要做相當程度的維持這個部分我是認為說也是一個有意義的一個思考"},{"start":225.141,"end":254.085,"text":"那或許就是法務部可以就這兩個議題不僅是特留份的議題還包含兄弟姊妹互付養義務的這個義務的事項有沒有需要一起一併的來做檢討來思考如果要修的話是不是要一併修那這個部分的話是不是可以請部長你這邊對於這個之前的委託研究案裡面有沒有包含這個部分"},{"start":255.1,"end":255.463,"text":"或者是說是 請市長"},{"start":259.997,"end":287.998,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢我們委託研究案裡頭的委託範圍是繼承篇的規定那是包含兩大的目的第一個目的就是希望能夠學者專家幫我們收集了解日本最近繼承篇修正的情況我現在只是講說就是就撫養的部分的話本席也建議你們法務部也可以一併思考就像我剛剛講的就是除了談到特留份"},{"start":289.86,"end":316.016,"text":"1223的規定之外呢另外114跟117裡面的撫養義務以及對於撫養義務的這個限縮它未來會不會涉及到跟特留分其實它有某種程度的一個關聯性因為有些確實是沒有謀生能力的兄弟姊妹可能需要其中的這個一方來做撫養但是之後又把它特留分又給剝奪了那會不會也會引起另外一種"},{"start":316.996,"end":331.714,"text":"觉得不公平的一个讨论那这本席这边也提出来相关的意见给你们做参考那当然就是说事实上本席这边也要给法务部甚至待会给司法院一些建议"},{"start":332.214,"end":353.126,"text":"因為我每次在看到你們每個會期提出的立法計畫我總覺得跟我們立法院的立法委員們所提出來的提案有相當的落差也就是說你們很多的立法計畫好像似乎永遠趕不上立法委員這裡提案的角度就是你們也要去觀察或者是去了解"},{"start":353.926,"end":380.771,"text":"每個會期可能立法院這裡可能會推動什麼樣的法案我們在哪個法案裡面可能會加速的通過那你們現在的就腳步很緩慢在各個法案裡面的提案都是一樣的坦白說你等你們的研究報告出來搞不好我們這個特留份的修法很快的在年底之前或是1月可能就已經通過了那你們做的研究也是徒勞無功"},{"start":382.593,"end":401.116,"text":"這是本席要給法務部的一個誠心的建議你們不能夠這麼腳步這麼牛步化這立法推動要迅速要加速然後再加上你們現在很多要經過行政院呈報之後再送出來"},{"start":402.077,"end":423.222,"text":"真的等到你們送出來我們的法案早就通過了也就沒有意義了那這部分的話本席希望部長這裡可以多配合或是多加速 加緊你們的速度能夠趕得上我們立法院推動法案的速度好嗎好 那麼接下來本席也要再談到就是"},{"start":424.454,"end":441.48,"text":"昨天的這個新聞剛剛羅志強委員有提到就是有關於北市黃慶清潔隊員將32元的電鍋送給石荒婦的這樣的一個案例然後又依法院士林地院依照貪污之罪條例"},{"start":443.167,"end":456.986,"text":"予以判決雖然說看起來是輕判但是事實上呢這個判決這個引起的社會觀感的確是不好那麼大家會認為說像這樣的一個像是一個"},{"start":458.467,"end":476.552,"text":"泛意很輕的這樣的一個行為違法很輕的行為但是呢還是依照貪污之罪條例裡面去懲罰那即便是法官在這個案子裡面他有四次的減刑事由可是呢事實上他還是判處三個月然後緩刑那只多公權兩年"},{"start":478.112,"end":504.091,"text":"那麼這樣子的一個判決坦白說老百姓不太能接受那麼事實上這個問題也不是只有這一次發生那麼在三年前其實有類似的案例同樣的也是單人清潔隊的無姓夫婦將民眾丟棄的家具電器送給一個越南的老鄉那麼後來兩人自首同樣的也是各被判刑一年一個月 一年兩個月然後也緩刑一年 尺度公權一年"},{"start":504.511,"end":525.428,"text":"在10年前也是有類似的案例同樣的也是一個清潔隊員他將資源回收物也是送給一個拾荒的老阿嬤那麼後來也是同樣被判刑也就是說這個問題其實已經存在已久但是法務部在這個事情上面同樣也是修法緩慢修法牛步"},{"start":527.441,"end":543.51,"text":"請問這個部長困難點在哪邊這部分其實我們在我們我們非常重視這個問題的確是清清法重那再怎麼檢那事實上跟國民的認知的會有一些的所以你們可以所以我們"},{"start":544.771,"end":562.797,"text":"有跟委員報告謝謝委員給我這時間我們那個是因為現行那個12條那個12條它只有減輕期刑我們把它都加一個或免除期刑那那個減輕的可以減三分之二還會更低那免除期刑就是法院可以免刑那所以這個案子很好那你們為什麼還沒有提出來"},{"start":563.277,"end":579.222,"text":"那這部分我們老早就提出行政已經審訊了那我想會很快再提出行政院會然後再送立法院來審理什麼時候會送到立法院呢這個我們再來努力我希望部長能夠在行政院能夠在行政院上面盡速的反映這個事情不要又是我們的法案都已經送出去到通過了 因為你們還沒有出行政院這其實會讓大家覺得說法務部怠惰"},{"start":591.286,"end":606.105,"text":"那當然現在本席也知道說有時候呢可能錯也不在法務部是在行政院不 行政院是審訊的那我想因為行政院審訊就趕快送出啊那為什麼要趕快送出啊我們會再跟行政院來我們再來努力"},{"start":606.485,"end":611.889,"text":"好 對 因為這個議題真的是已經就是這個疾病已久 大家都知道說這個條文的確有問題而且會錯罰一些不明瞭法律規定的民眾讓他們其實根本沒有貪污的動機或貪污的故意可是卻用貪污治罪條例來處罰他們"},{"start":631.385,"end":640.19,"text":"這其實真的是引起大家會覺得很不公平的一件事情所以呢也請部長這裡能夠盡速的要求行政院趕快把案子送到立法院來因為我們這裡之後也會加速來審理相關的條文好然後第三個議題呢則是因為這週一呢司法法治委員會就是安排到法務部剿政署還有所屬的台北監獄考察"},{"start":656.798,"end":676.676,"text":"那本席在這邊也非常感謝由林慶吉委員來帶隊那當天的考察雖然是聚焦在假釋的審查評估已經辦理但是本席認為監獄超收的問題還是非常值得關注的那根據今年3月法務部給本席的資料裡面台北看守所超收的比率高達36%"},{"start":678.658,"end":703.712,"text":"台北監獄是高達百分之十八 相近十九桃園監獄的超收比例也是超出百分之三十六桃園女子監獄有百分之三十一那麼從人權保障的角度來看其實法務部應該要趕快競速去解決超收的問題那你們現在到底規劃了有哪些是屬於監所要擴建改進的計畫"},{"start":705.793,"end":729.478,"text":"謝謝 那個就是我們現在那個巴德外醫間跟彰化看守所那目前工程已經到尾聲了希望明年上半年應該可以驗收來啟用了來啟用 那我想可以解決這個問題那另外我們也加速這個假釋的一個審查那為什麼會抄說 這個最主要是我們現在打造我們那個法官的良心開始已經"},{"start":731.874,"end":747.9,"text":"變 變比較重了那另外因為抓到不少的詐團所以這部分我們也做一些的生壓所以會 所以我也看到這個台北看守所超收還有一些的建立的一個超收是 跟這個有很大的關係那另外那個對 現在的詐團的詐犯有關係但是我覺得這個問題長期存在已久了所以本期希望好 這個防護部能夠在兩週之內可以提供給本期就是有關相關的目前的監獄看守所的超收情況以及你們"},{"start":760.424,"end":772.033,"text":"擴建改建的計畫好不好這個部分的話再請你們提供給我一個比較詳細的報告好那接下來請部長請回我接下來要再有個議題再請教副秘書長"},{"start":776.223,"end":799.404,"text":"好 謝謝王副秘本期這邊很快的要就叫一個議題就是在上週我們看到一個新聞就是懲戒法院對於前台灣苗栗地方法院的法官周靜妮作出撤職並停止任用三年的懲戒那其中就列舉了這個周法官他23項的違世行為這違世行為看起來也是令人瞠目結舌包括假造判決"},{"start":800.145,"end":822.3,"text":"然後不想在夜間開庭而與被告私下談條件然後當事人訴請離婚但是最後卻獲判20萬同時還要把當事人關過頭對當事人動私刑在電話當中逼當事人30秒內和解對不配合他說謊的助理還拖延加班費等等這些霸凌離譜的行為所以其實這個法官當然現在看起來他應該已經辭職了是不是所以懲戒結果對他的影響"},{"start":830.705,"end":853.778,"text":"有嗎有對他產生什麼影響嗎他只是辭職了然後呢他有扣除他的這個退休金什麼之類的嗎除了辭職的這個懲戒結果之外除了他已經辭職了他有其他的懲戒結果嗎其實看起來就是現在懲戒結果對他基本的影響是零啊"},{"start":856.536,"end":882.101,"text":"報告委員除非是說他有刑事責任那就是依懲戒的這些相關的處分這個已經是最重最重的處分所以他是辭職還是撤職撤職所以他剛剛講的那些行為沒有構成其他的刑事上面的犯罪嗎目前是沒有沒有"},{"start":883.368,"end":899.928,"text":"所以這就是讓社會大家都會覺得實在是這樣子離譜的法官最後只能夠在行為上面給他撤職但是卻不構成其他的犯罪而且更何況本席感到最吃驚的是這個行為其實已經持續非常多年"},{"start":900.569,"end":929.949,"text":"他從104年當時他的那時候的這個院長就已經對這個一個邱志平院長當時已經對這個州法官一語口頭警告曾經一開始104年的時候曾經發生第一件這個不當的行為之後在108年到113年歷時三年多這樣子的一個霸凌或是不合理的這樣的違法行為不斷的發生但是司法院基本上處理這樣子的案子會非常的緩慢"},{"start":930.969,"end":953.152,"text":"好像是無動於衷 總是慢半拍所以本席就感到很驚訝的就是到底司法院對於自己本身法官的內控機制是如何類似像這樣子的問題如果說當事人或是他的律師一旦反應之後你們的啟動調查或是暫時停止他審判的機制有類似像這樣的一個做法嗎"},{"start":954.133,"end":960.088,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢 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健保卡我可以理解連存摺的銀本都要有紙本跟數位好奇怪另外也要求你要有一些現金跟零錢帶在身上為什麼"},{"start":170.995,"end":185.422,"text":"為什麼在緊急狀況的時候你還要去保留你這個金融機構存摺的銀本或紙本或者數位我想這是從馬太安事件裡面我們就看到了這樣的一個情況就是說當我緊急的時候要向銀行去證明這件事情的時候是的"},{"start":185.822,"end":207.963,"text":"可以很快速來看但是現在我們數位化如果很成功如果它整個中央系統沒有被處理掉你到其他的相關分行也是可以找到你的資料但是我們只是說以備萬一但是也有反過來的情況有可能我們的電力網路資料會被破壞反而你需要留下實體的證明對不對所以他這裡強調的紙本 實體跟數位都同時要有才是比較安全的是不是這樣子"},{"start":208.283,"end":225.038,"text":"是一個當然是比較多重的這部分比較可以減少以後驗證就像比如身份證掉了你很麻煩對不對對 身份證掉了點起來就好啦對 就是你可以假設少了身份證包括你要重新開戶要確認你是誰就產生了困擾所以類似像這樣我們可以減少未來"},{"start":225.658,"end":254.649,"text":"在验证的但是今天我们来谈到当一个紧急状况发生的时候我们本来赖以现代化数位化的生活就会受到中断所以我们来看一个情况在一个极端的状况我们看乌克兰的例子当一个极端的状况的时候这个国家的电力网络资料库系统都被破坏的时候甚至它是遭到网络的恐攻这时候无止化反而造成了你的银行账户你的资产不见了你的有价证券不晓得怎么去证明甚至你的不动产证明如果说资料库被破坏"},{"start":255.31,"end":260.708,"text":"這可能都損及到未來你在貧富之後你怎麼證明你的財產的問題是不是存在這樣的情況"},{"start":261.516,"end":290.575,"text":"我想在極端情況的時候我們現在大部分都沒有經過這個狀況我們從一些媒體或是從其他知道在那個狀況的時候可能是電力網路跟這個大家都沒有了當我們沒有電力沒有網路的時候確實很多數位服務會中斷但是我們也開始也注意到說這問題怎麼樣強化金融的韌性怎麼樣維持最低度的服務的應變措施但是那種極端狀還沒來臨的還有一種就是什麼就是這一個就是科技手段的攻擊"},{"start":291.836,"end":314.687,"text":"就是說我們之前有委員提出叫做金融兵推不見得在第一時間它就是一個極端的一個武力攻擊的狀態但是因為我們的數位金融很普及如果有人用網路恐攻對我們金融系統或者說平時不是恐攻恐攻跟詐欺它的利基點都在於我們大量的仰賴數位金融所以因為數位金融的關係"},{"start":315.888,"end":340.316,"text":"這些竊取個資或者詐騙金流它就可以產生恐攻它剛好目的不是為了錢它為了擾亂你的金融秩序那麼我們金管會對於這個部分用科技手段來進行攻擊有沒有進行金融的兵推其實我們在金融研訓院過去一直都有針對這部分我們有跟國外的這些的相關的兵推機構做合作這已經做很多年了"},{"start":340.856,"end":366.365,"text":"是 所以你們得到什麼心得其實這些兵推不是只有緊急狀況發生平時也跟我們打仗有關對不對是的是的 好 那我們現在看好 那現在我們來看一下這個小局主提到說這些資安看起來大家看到資安就很像是速發布但是你認為像這個資安裡面它所提示的事情譬如說來自中國伺服器在中國的APP或者說它有各自洩漏的風險或者說據攝像"},{"start":367.805,"end":395.321,"text":"的功能的中國品牌產品這些在危機發生的時候都可能產生我們的個資或隱私外洩但在平常的時候這會不會也是一個詐團他們進行詐騙取得個資的一個管道所以這些看起來資安是屬於速發部的是不是也跟我們的金融安全息息相關跟我們的打詐息息相關那當然打詐是不會分部會的它是就是無孔不入詐騙無孔不入我想這部分我們在金融這邊也不斷提醒我們的"},{"start":396.041,"end":418.571,"text":"我們的消費者所以我不斷地剛兩度引用了小局書就是希望說金管會也可以用思考居安思維從打造的角度也要參考小局書的這樣的內容去告訴民眾做一些宣導我們來看一下 譬如說金管還可以做什麼譬如說我們看到Coupon有人說個資外洩是一個中級的離職員工為什麼特別要講到中級"},{"start":419.651,"end":446.264,"text":"就是跟Apple的伺服器放在中國一樣我們覺得他的有疑慮我們又看到台積電最近台積電最大的一個問題不是那個挪威人是因為有三個內鬼洩密結果呢居然啊不追溯東京威力啊而且用國安法所以目前我們看到說這些金融從平常的打詐到境外敵對勢力的滲透這些都從治安到國安都有關聯是不是這樣子"},{"start":446.744,"end":473.584,"text":"我想資安是一個全面的議題它就是會影響到個人以外如果很多的個人單位影響整個社會影響到國家所以我們看到如果就台積電的案子他們對於前高階主管離職後跑去Intel那是國家忠誠他們有沒有敬業條款他們違反了前公司的保密規定台積電自然會對他個人採取一個訴求法律訴求但是對於國籍的問題這就問題來了我們往下看"},{"start":474.304,"end":498.226,"text":"譬如說我們的關鍵基礎設施你看一看台電對它的關鍵基礎是說公平對待廠商不允許具有中級的員工維修人員進入核電廠你覺得為什麼為什麼同樣的這樣的一個關鍵基礎設施台電會特別針對你的外包商你來標我的工程標我的維修但是你進入廠區的不能有中國國籍的這樣的員工為什麼"},{"start":499.912,"end":515.7,"text":"我想當然就是基於剛剛那一些的考慮那上面有幾個個案就告訴我們這件事情好 所以關鍵基礎設施包括我們的金融重要的基礎設施我們其實有針對幾家重要的金融機構我們是有特別的"},{"start":516.86,"end":532.295,"text":"有規定他們的人員的國籍的規定有在清查嗎其實我們在金融機構啊所有的裡面的這些的人員的聘僱都有一定的規定對外國人的聘僱都有一定的規定所以目前這個部分可不可以請金管會在上次有詢問過"},{"start":533.396,"end":560.039,"text":"你請你再次檢查一下好不好是不是我們有做到了目前我們看到的這些在其他商業部門暴露出來的個案我們金融機構特別重要好再往下看其實過去本席有提出說我們炸房條例跨業照會要納第三方支付目前政院版的第88條有沒有納入三支就是我們現在是因為以前那個照會只有同業照會我們現在改成跨業照會是的"},{"start":561.158,"end":575.386,"text":"那跨業造會當中跨業是跨哪些業有沒有辦法第三方支付主要是VASP跟銀行銀行那三支呢三支過去一樣是炸團最常使用的那麼怎麼預防炸團用三支呢"},{"start":577.515,"end":591.86,"text":"这里面的所谓的其他金融机构或提供虚拟资产服务之事业会人员包括三支现在看起来是没有现在是没有那觉得需不需要将三支纳入到这一个范围内"},{"start":592.864,"end":609.601,"text":"因為主要是我們打造專法裡面四個帳戶本身來講它已經有界定在一定的範圍內是不是請我們局長補充一下趕快時間有限這個我們在行政院平台裡面有討論過數位部是認為說因為目前三制它已經有納入到能量管理的部分"},{"start":611.202,"end":628.729,"text":"所以他不用透過這種跨業造會的機制來處理好 我想呢這個炸團的手段日新月異我希望金管會不要因此說其他部會說不用就不用你們要維持你們的高度警戒如果說只有能量納管不夠"},{"start":629.537,"end":658.425,"text":"那麼你們未來的法規內容還要擴充 可以嗎是 我們會來在那個平台上來提出這樣一個相關的演繹好 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謝謝"},{"start":284.549,"end":307.863,"text":"報告員 監察院這邊是要我們每半年來做一次檢討跟規劃已經有四個半年囉我知道 上個禮拜我有邀請救生員學會這個部分過來一起到署裡面針對這個議題來討論目前我們大概是建議還是公辦的一個檢定跟民間機構的一個檢定我們總共雙軌這個部分會並行所以之前是公辦"},{"start":308.763,"end":334.521,"text":"之前純粹是公辦之前收歸單軌所以之後有可能會回到雙軌我們現在其實就是用雙軌的一個檢定方式來進行你到底有沒有改有有要改因為其實您提到的這個問題我也非常感謝其實你們很清楚這個狀況就是說其實這個分級制度以前可能稍微需要做一點收回變成公辦可是公辦之後其實我們看公辦檢定"},{"start":336.182,"end":352.379,"text":"這個公證數值結果要求很嚴格結果袖聲援不足這個困境其實就變成過猶不及有恐失之嘛對不對那這個你說一年可能60場公辦檢定可能不太夠那你是說以後"},{"start":353.44,"end":380.043,"text":"現在這個其實本來就是可以委任就是民間的單位來確保本來就雙軌啊那你這到底有沒有改我問你有沒有改你說有改改在哪裡現在現在其實109那個時候是維持公辦然後現在我們其實不是從去年開始是雙軌去年開始雙軌113年開始雙軌對那為什麼他還不接受呢他為什麼還是覺得你們要改進呢"},{"start":380.743,"end":402.16,"text":"因為現在公辦的一個檢定的場次他們也認為還太少所以我們這邊也在酌情看是不是要再做一個增加然後另外我們現在會想辦法減低就是民間機構辦理檢定相關的一些困難問題也包括有些器材他們可能對他們來講是一個負擔所以我們要用租借的方式"},{"start":402.78,"end":430.111,"text":"提供給他們來做一個使用這民眾的安全啦 這個第一優先好不好那尤其我想您剛剛提到有些問題檢定還是要嚴格啦確實是 對 就是一鬆一緊之間都不能說太過啦那其實還有一個縣市可能檢定場地不足的問題比如說現在可能就是新竹啊新竹雲林嘉義等等嘛 今年其實會不會 有沒有可以調整的空間啊"},{"start":431.892,"end":455.301,"text":"尝试不足的部分我们这边都可以来跟执行小组这边来联系可以随时来支援这没问题好那另外也随着这个运动部导入各项的科技措施AI防疫系统也是改善汉式的一环那我们现在算冬天冬天游泳也很棒夏天那更不用讲所以我想这个客线是来导入结果我们发现"},{"start":456.461,"end":479.015,"text":"這個本席了解部分的運動部有補助這個也是予以感謝但是只補助了三件去裝設這個AI防禦的系統台中、新北、高雄這個我們也是幫大家來問一下民眾安全第一優先可不可以增加多一點的機制或者是配套來因應現階段救生員不足的問題多一點防禦系統這有沒有機會"},{"start":479.935,"end":508.299,"text":"我們可以朝這方向來努力多一點是沒有問題的只是這個系統是輔助系統他沒有辦法完全替代救生員市長講得很好絕對沒有要替代救生員因為你救生員不足我們救生員也要增加專業訓練也提高AI防疫也增加這樣民眾有更好的保障這沒有問題沒有人在講替代的問題謝謝市長最後想跟市長談到運動資料的授權跟應用"},{"start":509.039,"end":535.071,"text":"本席上週跟運動部的夜報的時候聽到在夜報當中我們質詢有提醒李洋部長有一個正向的交流就是說隨著科技的推動一定要注意資料收集和數據的應用還有資安的保障這是一定的過去體育署有很多運動賽事是透過標案的方式透過委託民間單位去執行這個次長一定很了解"},{"start":535.831,"end":540.281,"text":"那這些賽事的相關記錄資訊數據 影像 經驗 數值理論上都在委辦單位手上"},{"start":546.676,"end":566.398,"text":"有在运动部吗目前还没有对很好谢谢市长这些资料我们都希望要呼吁说其实是政府出钱的就应该是政府的数位资产这也是我们要去努力的方向因为我们将会把这个资料的管理收回到我们的运动产业中心来做管理public money public 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T10:50:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T10:58:26+08:00","duration":506,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.505968750000001,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.04096875,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.35284375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.68159375,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.12034375,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.27221875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.37346875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.74034375,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.68096875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.74409375,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.127218750000004,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.73346875,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.17909375,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.689093750000005,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.04221875,"end":75.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.17721875,"end":63.329093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.35659375,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.21221875,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.46096875,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.62971875000001,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.39284375000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.36909375,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.21284375,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.78221875000001,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.94659375,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":113.02596875,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.79221875,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.03659375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.22596875000002,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.91534375,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.74596875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.22534375,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.42721875,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.62096875,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":195.20721875,"end":204.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.99471875,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.95659375000002,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.01534375,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.42846875,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":212.31846875000002,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":234.39096875,"end":248.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.05534375000002,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.04221875000002,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.14721875,"end":256.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.20596875,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.07409375000003,"end":277.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.81221875,"end":266.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.08471875000004,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":284.22284375000004,"end":300.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.41846875000005,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.56659375000004,"end":330.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.64221875000004,"end":345.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.98159375,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.22596875000005,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.32971875000004,"end":364.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.08471875000004,"end":3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我們是不是有請農業部我們杜次長我們請杜次長和動保師師長師長請委員好"},{"start":24.97,"end":47.846,"text":"市長想透過今天的質詢還是繼續來聊這個流浪狗的問題那流浪狗在我的選區因為布袋東石異族這個大概就是餘溫養殖密集的所以你可以看到說我們在這裡出現了流浪狗在攻擊黑面疲勞的一個狀況來我放一個影片給你們看一下短短的"},{"start":51.226,"end":75.214,"text":"那这个是非常很重要的这个候鸟黑面皮鹿小黑狗在湿地上悠闲散步偶尔来个加快脚步吓得一旁白鹿丝跟黑面皮鹿纷纷逃离不止小黑狗仔细看共有四只流浪狗现身鸟群当中看来相当突兀这也是嘉义布袋台17线旁的湿地宁静候鸟栖息地却出现成群野狗闯入追逐的惊险场面让保育人士看了相当忧心"},{"start":76.391,"end":101.967,"text":"好 那你看這個流浪狗跟黑麵皮路的衝突那第二個你來看這個下一個影片動保人員趴在水狗裡要捕抓流浪犬隻流浪犬隻不僅躲在水狗裡就連一旁的魚瘟裡 道路上全都是動保人員連忙奔跑追趕還將落水狗從水中撈起就怕他再度抓魚或是攻擊農民養的牲畜嘉義縣沿海地區近年流浪犬問題嚴重不但發生有流浪狗追逐機車導致民眾摔車甚至在近日還有養豬養兒戶的豬兒遭到犬隻攻擊致死"},{"start":107.986,"end":130.554,"text":"那所以我們知道這流浪狗的問題大概已經變成在這個沿海養殖密集的地方就是像我們這邊還有濕地那濕地當然就會有所謂候鳥的問題那很多餘溫的魚呀這狗都會去捕獵他們是很厲害我曾經有一個影片是狗 一群狗"},{"start":131.334,"end":145.802,"text":"旁邊在那邊齁 在旁邊那邊做一些驚嚇然後讓養殖的魚群集中然後另外一隻比較厲害的就會去把魚丟起來所以對於這一些養殖戶當然就有影響"},{"start":146.502,"end":171.234,"text":"然後第二個就是說你看這就說最近的一個新聞喔狗衝到了流浪狗衝到了這個漁市場裡面然後翻箱倒櫃然後衝到了騎鵝阿丟那你知道養鵝的最怕什麼?驚嚇因為鵝會發生踩踏而且鵝很怕牠的腳因為牠的身體比較重牠的腳比較小所以牠也很怕牠如果高起來驚嚇牠"},{"start":173.436,"end":185.177,"text":"其他的腳一旦斷掉了那隻鵝就死掉了甚至還有流浪狗已經兇到了跑到了豬場裡面一隻咬死了然後你看有一個咬死了11頭豬"},{"start":187.644,"end":206.995,"text":"5隻流浪狗衝到豬場裡面咬死11頭豬堵到比牠大隻的蝶牠也不怕所以就可以知道整個流浪狗的問題是嚴重的那這個問題的嚴重又來自於說地方還是會有所謂會去餵食流浪狗"},{"start":208.249,"end":233.497,"text":"去餵食遊覽狗所以我還是要跟次長反映一下說這個遊覽狗雖然說基於動保法的一個規定那我們現在盡量是零撲殺就是零安二死的一個狀況那但是呢遊覽狗造成了很多人的一個財產上的損失甚至他去追老人的時候造成老人騎摩托車走去跌倒"},{"start":234.497,"end":248.067,"text":"造成他的甚至生命都產生問題的狀況之下我們還是要正視這個問題啊所以我們農業部能不能針對至少就餵食流浪狗這件事情做出相對應的一個處置呢"},{"start":249.53,"end":275.941,"text":"謝謝委員提這個問題而且這個標題真的不是只有在動物保護也不是只有在群這個族群的控制而是在於有沒有可能疾病散播的這個危險我想這看到兩個問題第一個如果有盪犬去追逐人這個有我們人民的國人安全的問題嘛那第二個其實像其實每年像這個季節候鳥季節來的時候其實也是我們情流感的高峰期所以一天遭遇那個候鳥棲息地種種的要再去我們的街頭也是很危險的事情"},{"start":277.162,"end":300.508,"text":"市長我跟你說齁 像他為什麼會跑去那個地上裡面齁我跟你說 他挖洞那個豬場已經齁 已經封閉起來了他自己挖洞裡面 從地 地他就是那個土質鬆軟掉然後就挖洞進去 然後就這樣潛進去 五隻跑進去那我做一個比較不好的假設你在餵食的過程中讓狗 縱使牠不會因為"},{"start":301.868,"end":320.257,"text":"如果餵食的食物帶有非洲豬瘟如果非洲豬瘟呢他不會 他雖然不會讓狗得病可是他身體會沾染細菌嘛那他如果衝到了這個豬場裡面他等於就一個風險啊現在連豬農都知道他要進入豬場他必須要做好一些防塵的一些要"},{"start":322.478,"end":342.798,"text":"保持要乾淨的概念但是狗是直接衝進去的完全不剩完全的概念跑來跑去變成機械性的傳播所以這個也有可能會進一步流浪狗又變成了說我們是在做對於防止這一些像類似非洲之瘟這樣的菌的一個感染它可能又變成一個擴散鏈是"},{"start":342.998,"end":361.367,"text":"所以我是覺得這個問題我們真的正視著所以我們就想建議說其實不是我們自己養的動物不要去養不管是狗 鳥 或是外面的野生都不是自己養的動物你就不要去餵牠那你要餵牠就帶回家去好好照顧當然 你就負起施主的責任嘛你去養牠 你要聽牠 你就帶回去養你去聽牠 你就好好聽 別讓牠丟"},{"start":364.489,"end":379.905,"text":"不管是野生動物或是不是你自己的動物就不要去餵牠不要去餵牠好那第二個我還是因為剛剛也有很多委員去講到的這個鎖定的狗的問題啦那事實上你們有說你們可能會有其他的一些措施事實上什麼措施都"},{"start":381.647,"end":410.674,"text":"都很難 因為狗 猴子畢竟是聰明的啦他是領長類所以他也有 他會有一些經驗的傳承 現在猴子大概以兩塊的電維網 他們後來就會都會懂了他們就會知道說 少許東西要去要去要去要去拼不用啦 所以教他就聰明那我就覺得 既然狗已經 猴子也不是不是保育類動物了 事實上適度的啦 適度的開放"},{"start":414.135,"end":438.572,"text":"适度的让猎人猎人去执行任务想办法在密集区移除你如果没有移除可能会在那里团生未来活植的问题你看日本因为黑熊进入到了我们的生活区域所以日本最近扑杀了七千只黑熊然后他们现在发展出黑熊美食"},{"start":439.692,"end":457.047,"text":"有一些熊類的一些食物當然熊是在人的觀念裡面是使用猴子大概不會有人去使用但是畢竟這件事它已經侵害到了人類的一個生活空間那既然進入人類的生活空間我覺得適度的就讓獵人執行任務這件事真的是"},{"start":458.848,"end":476.717,"text":"你們要去做的我覺得政府一個政府適度拿出一些決心跟魄力來老百姓會給予掌聲的雖然也許說我們會面對一些團體他們會有一些另外活到的考量但是"},{"start":478.217,"end":506.206,"text":"我覺得近乎還是要有我們還是希望好好保護這些猴子但是他一旦進入人類的一個生活範圍裡面我們有時候還是要適度的來採取這樣的措施讓獵人來執行任務才是真正有辦法有辦法解決的不然他為什麼叫獵人他既然叫獵人就當然是他來執行啊我們來評估用這個方式看能不能處理一些減少對人的困擾啦好啦好謝謝謝謝次長好非常感謝"}]}},{"id":"166110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d60905a43719b3f6b582f8c8e0c6b9e8ae7be3e8fe055fbc13fa5ec6075ae9718d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:49:27 - 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遺囑自由因為所有權承認不可侵犯理論上是這樣子嘛那所以我遺囑 我財產要給誰就給誰我要給路人也可以但是為什麼會有這種所謂特留份的設計"},{"start":128.363,"end":143.292,"text":"這個就是事實上在立法這個就是他牽涉到了這個所謂的家庭制度家庭倫理還有照顧者的生活保障他家人的一些生活保障的這些考慮之後那至於"},{"start":143.772,"end":172.852,"text":"哪一些人應該要有我們給予他一些基本生活的保障一些保留哪一些人需要有特留份這個制度設計在取得我剛所講的這兩個目的就是遺族的自由跟這個繼承人的基本生活保障這兩個目的之間來取得哪一個點是平衡的是大家覺得說這些人應該要有應該要特別保留給這些人哪一些人不需要配偶大家認為應該要那子女"},{"start":174.063,"end":200.17,"text":"他應該要祖父母要不要兄弟姊妹要不要這個就在看他平衡點取在哪裡這個我覺得是今天這個會議討論的最最根本的這個這個目的那就有點剛剛林倩琦委員在質詢的時候提到這個離婚的這個門檻的問題一樣他還是在兩個價值之間去衡量去衡評在這個婚姻自由但是這婚姻不只是兩個人的事這個社會認知到你們是夫是"},{"start":201.11,"end":227.628,"text":"是配偶關係之後他的所有的經濟行為等等所以你要保留婚姻的安定性所以這兩個婚姻對於社會的安定性跟婚姻自由這兩個橫屏之下的離婚門檻的設計跟這個特留份今天我們討論一樣也是就是這個橫屏的橫屏點要放在哪裡其實我們現在民法這個特留份的制度這個部長你知道是民國幾年立的法這個是民國"},{"start":231.863,"end":259.92,"text":"19年1920年1930年這是民國19年立法之後特留份部分就沒有修改過就是這樣對不對當初這個設計其實在當初那時候的這個是在中國的立法中國那時候立法中國的整個社會環境他的家族條件結構跟現在社會可能已經完全不一樣了但是在當初立法的時候其實是個進步的立法當初是以"},{"start":261.261,"end":282.455,"text":"我們是參考哪一國的立法律應該是參考歐陸法系列我們參考瑞士瑞士的這個特留份制度它是綜合德國跟法國的制度當初算是進步的立法所以我們當初是最進步的立法結果到現在"},{"start":286.178,"end":311.036,"text":"這個1930年到現在2025年已經快要100年了這個其實會引起社會這樣討論也就是因為社會確實制度變遷了很多當初我們是一個進步的立法但是現在我們環顧我們應該看外國的立法力到底這個兄弟姊妹的特留份在外國其他的制度到底還沒有在保留這個部分我覺得這個是我們今天要來探討的"},{"start":313.943,"end":334.295,"text":"剛剛翁委員提到說這個好像我們這個法務部在這個現在社會都已經這樣子我們立委也提案也好幾個立委提案要直接刪除這個兄弟姐妹的特留份那好像我們的法務部牛步話啦我們這個都腳步緩慢啦但是事實上我個人認為啦我看事實上我們法務部並沒有這樣子牛步話第一個"},{"start":335.506,"end":361.316,"text":"我們剛剛在一整個早上一直在講我們在105年的時候我們事實上就已經有提出整個民法繼承對不對 我們那時候有這個草案那個有 那個有送大院那時候已經送到立法院來審議了就是因為 借期不連續為什麼會借期不連續那時候的立法委員怠惰那時候立法委員怠惰說我們這個民法繼承篇的相關的修改送進立法院結果當時的立法委員怠惰不審讓他到借期不連續"},{"start":363.937,"end":383.247,"text":"當然不是 我們就回頭去看當初我們有沒有處理這個特留份的問題兄弟有去處理我們那時候去處理是我們把它降低特留份的比例我們那時候沒有全部刪除105年的草案是降低比例嘛但是降低 光是降低比例其實那時候在立法院的討論裡面就引起很大的爭議引起不同的意見"},{"start":384.537,"end":398.243,"text":"那時候有什麼樣不同意見呢包括這些婦女團體還有一些部分的立委也認為說特留份現在這種特留份的這個部分尤其在台灣傳統社會這種男尊女卑常常會讓這個男性"},{"start":400.484,"end":427.547,"text":"男性的這個讓兒子繼承然後讓女兒的部分就不繼承避免就是如果直接刪除兄弟姐妹的特留份或者是降低在當時的討論當時的討論婦女團體之所以很多婦女團體站出來質疑就是他們認為說你如果直接降低了這個特留份的話那時候只是降低不是刪除降低他們認為在這個子女性別的財產分配上面會造成不公平的"},{"start":429.188,"end":455.893,"text":"狀況等等諸如此類不只這個有各種不各種不一樣的意見所以那時候就放在那裡沒有辦法決定所以就最後脫過了那個會期就屆期不連續對不對是不是這樣是是是嗎所以有關這個兄弟姐妹這特留份的這的部分討論其實我們法務部有沒有有沒有牛部話呢就剛剛今天早上大家都問說啊你們到底態度怎麼樣你們的回答就是說你們現在有一個"},{"start":456.914,"end":483.474,"text":"委外的研究案委外的研究案這個委外研究案不是不只是針對這個兄弟姊妹的特留份吧它是範圍是繼承篇整個繼承篇整個大修整個繼承篇大修啦我所了解包括這個喪屍繼承權的室友啦這個戴威繼承佐給財產的遺產分割生前特種證語等等什麼所有這些東西都納入在這個委外研究案那這個這個"},{"start":487.602,"end":506.585,"text":"好像說你們是牛步化被動但是我來看我看到這個時程其實你們並沒有說比較慢因為其實在這個公共現在這個廢除這個兄弟姐妹的特留份的保障的部分在公共政策網路平台那時候被提出提案的時候是"},{"start":508.364,"end":535.221,"text":"2025年4月29 我說今年的4月29今年4月29網路開始提案那提案 那個提案沒有通過在網路政策平台沒有通過第二次在這個8月31 8月底的時候在第二次的提案才通過了嘛但是我們的這105年 不是105我們這個委員研究案是什麼時候送的4月份 今年4月份事實上在網路提案之前連在政策平台提案之前我們就已經"},{"start":536.521,"end":563.68,"text":"就要檢討整個制度的那這個整個制度我個人是不太贊成說直接我們就很簡單的就把這個1.2.3條第一項第四款直接把它刪除把全部直接拿掉就好我個人是不太贊成啦因為它有一些配套它其實真的有一些配套例如說我們把它拿掉之後那現在現在正在訴訟的這些案件它有沒有書籍記網"},{"start":565.27,"end":585.18,"text":"這真的不可能 這不會唆棄計劃我現在我直接刪除我直接刪除了這個說兄弟姊妹特留份 沒有了那現在可能細數的我現在還在細數的案件我可以直接引用現在新法說兄弟姊妹特留份已經沒有了"},{"start":586.294,"end":590.895,"text":"因為計程室死亡開始就發生計程我說不只這個啦不只這個你還包括說包括說這個撫養你這個剛才這個是好像是翁委員提到說有關於撫養義務的這個界定這個也是配套的部分所以我認為說光直接就立法委我們這些委員同仁提案直接把這個123條第一項"},{"start":614.178,"end":629.953,"text":"第四款刪除我個人認為說這樣立法是不太妥當的啦我認為說應該就按照法務部現在目前的步調我們反正今天現在已經12月了所以就是快要我們這個研究報告快要出來了嘛那研究報告出來之後"},{"start":630.914,"end":656.256,"text":"也不是說研究報告說什麼我們就怎麼做嘛你社會也會有不同的意見啊有關特留份的部分有一些是主張全部整個特留份制度都刪除的嘛這個聲音也有但是還是有像在105年立法的時候也有反對這個降低兄弟姊妹為了性別保障的考量反對這個降低兄弟姊妹特留份的意見也有啊那我們怎麼處理兄弟姊妹特留份"},{"start":657.098,"end":662.419,"text":"有的人認為應該直接刪除也有人認為降低比例就好有人認為說整個特留份制度都拿掉"},{"start":664.566,"end":691.259,"text":"這個有各種不一樣的意見所以我們研究報告出來之後理論上我們是應該要在召開會議聽取廣納社會不同的意見大家來凝聚共識以免到時候法案送進來在我們司法法治委員會又大家不同的意見結果又卡在那裡我們任期也沒有剩幾年這屆期不連續到時候十年後的司法委員會召委那時候更年輕的翁曉琳來說你們那時候為什麼沒有通過"},{"start":692.557,"end":716.069,"text":"對不對 所以我認為說應該這樣子啦應該按照這個方向那其實按照各國的立法例其實我們回頭看看各國的立法例其實跟我們社會制度最接近的日本 韓國都把兄弟姊妹的特留份拿掉了有些韓國最近 韓國在去年而已去年拿掉去年 而且他們宣告違憲而且立即失效"},{"start":717.11,"end":742.009,"text":"他們沒有再修法了 違憲就立即兄弟姊妹特留份就是立即失效所以他們現在兄弟姊妹沒有特留份那這個我個人在最後一點時間我個人參考我們在參考日本日本因為他們現在日本的高齡化社會比我們更嚴重比台灣更嚴重他們整個家庭結構都改變了跟我們當初那種家族裡面他們甚至現在兄弟姊妹"},{"start":743.39,"end":761.702,"text":"這個都已經不是重點了而是配偶死亡之後遺留下來的這個還存活的這個配偶他的生活保障變成他們最關注的部分所以他們會把兄弟裡面特留份等等的拿掉所以他們財產部分他們還包括到他"},{"start":762.583,"end":779.997,"text":"很多他到底連居住的地方的繼承等等這種整個社會結構家庭觀念的改變所以這個高齡配偶的這個生存的權利那自書遺囑的這個執行遺囑執行人的權限這些促進自書"},{"start":781.417,"end":799.131,"text":"促進這個自書遺囑的這些他們都有很多的配套那我是希望說我們在即將要出爐的這個研究報告出來之後我們整理我們幾個我們應該繼承偏我們應該因應現在也真的要修了啦我剛才民國19年到現在已經快100年的條文也應該要修了啦那我們來做一些全面的檢視"},{"start":808.078,"end":822.315,"text":"那把配合現代這個不同的家庭觀念不同的這個家裡社會結構我們來做一個整體的這樣子的檢討我認為這樣是比較妥當的啦光就這個兄弟姊妹的特留份這樣來單獨處理我個人認為是會變成只是"},{"start":827.421,"end":838.251,"text":"沒有對症下 他就是就是我認為會有一些 你們有一些配套 會有一些後遺症那我這個在這裡以這樣子來期許我們法務部謝謝 謝委員好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言"}]}},{"id":"166123","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166123","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d68a836b279980fdf9c7cefddca96be500a14720b4e10c82cbe7bc962e133d59975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:53:59 - 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部長 很多的被害人跟我反映什麼他說是不是因為 你到9月其實才通過那個考試院的審議通過然後10月14才核定 11月7號"},{"start":158.147,"end":164.01,"text":"修正發佈並生效實施11月28日正式成立有很多受害者跟我講什麼他說為什麼拖到9月會不會是因為823之前大家都在忙罷免大罷免的事情是因為大罷免32比0之後因為已經失敗了所以才會到9月之後才來處理這個事情所以是不是因為罷免而耽誤了打雜呢"},{"start":182.819,"end":207.344,"text":"委員我想你非常清楚跟這個完全無關因為您剛有提到包括考試院或者是行政院的人總都是要去做溝通的部長我現在跟您反映的是被害者的心聲所以為什麼有這樣的感受表示說我們的速度還是慢了一點我們還是希望我們打大所以說現在因為我看到你們的報告是寫說這個詐房中心法治化之後可以偵辦跨境重大的詐騙那請問一下那過去法治化前三年"},{"start":212.425,"end":227.092,"text":"這個跨境詐騙現在是因為沒有主則沒有法源沒有完整人力嗎那到當時的跨境大這個打詐你們用怎麼樣的方式來處理因為跨境詐騙是這幾年爆量成長那為什麼不是最優先法治化的呢"},{"start":230.45,"end":246.927,"text":"跨境的部分我是不是請署長跟您做一個簡單報告那跨境的這個部分確實目前就是我們打造比較要去做精進的一個地方那最主要就是說有一些國家是跟我們沒有邦交的"},{"start":247.668,"end":275.007,"text":"那偏偏這些的炸團的一個的這個運作的機房或水房的中心就在那些根本沒有邦交的國家那不過我們這個選舉駐外的聯絡官都有在積極做這樣的一個努力那我們也會從鄰國的一些的我們跟我們友好的國家會去做這樣的一個合作的一個機制來做處理那署長您剛提的這些主要是我們有的沒邦交然後都在境外"},{"start":275.887,"end":291.633,"text":"那請問一下那這樣聽起來的話那我們要這個打擊詐騙事實上有非常大的困難未來這個這個詐謗中心成立之後我們要怎麼樣來去處理這個對我們就是詐謗中心成立完之後這個機制當然我們沒有成立之前也實際有在運作"},{"start":292.193,"end":318.378,"text":"不過這個成立完之後我們的人力編組各方面在就是有預算更加的充實大概就是細緻上會做得更好對 我們今年的前三季外籍這個嫌疑犯就有8293人這是你們統計的一個數字對 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我想其實委員這個部分來講的話我們也正在建立的就是類似像名人通報的部分像立法委員或者是一些網路我們常見到像張忠謀之類的這樣的一個名人的通報如果我們已經建立這樣的一個VIP的廣場你看下一則"},{"start":515.063,"end":532.986,"text":"他有一個是我在這個國事論壇講話的這個照片然後呢我講的是朱鎔泰院長因為在7月18號朱鎔泰院長拒絕給人民一萬塊的救命錢但內容摘要卻是川普撕破民主供應鏈假面積賴清德還要自欺欺人"},{"start":533.627,"end":536.05,"text":"然後就說7月18有疑似詐騙是由資安院AI自動搜尋查獲疑似詐騙然後7月10%已經通知我可是我問了一輪我們辦公室沒有一個人收到通知還有再來圖片跟文案根本完全不同"},{"start":550.166,"end":554.55,"text":"那所以你現在AI是不是已經設定了只要是講到那個卓榮泰院長或是賴清德總統的你就把他視為詐騙了然後就是要通報就是這是一個疑似詐騙的訊息是因為我們如果發現這樣的一個狀況的時候呢我們會跟委員辦公室來做一個確認"},{"start":567.481,"end":575.987,"text":"就沒有 我們全部的同仁問過一輪了沒有一個人說到這樣的我們不去了解一下這個對 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到底算不算有效 因為他自己講的所以刑訴明文規定自白必須是自由意識 還有就是說一個程序的正義語言都聽不懂的話 哪來的自由意志 所以我們希望的是說在自白的法律效力有沒有存在 第二個如果自白本身就是有一種"},{"start":278.038,"end":284.086,"text":"很多的傻字重重能不能當作簡型的起算點起算點的一旦定錯了是不是懲罰聽不懂不懂聽不懂中文的弱勢的族群這樣子的處理"},{"start":295.2,"end":302.524,"text":"是不是真正的對砸害者有幫助所以我們警政署這邊也要請說清楚目前第一線的外籍人士辦案有沒有專線專責各種語言的辦案的團隊就是在每一次的記錄每一次的翻譯是否就是合格口譯的因為"},{"start":319.204,"end":347.825,"text":"自白都是很必要的因為要保障被害人也如果當起算點本身都不公平的話就算用程序正義去換補償或者這樣的制度能不能讓人民真的應用的到落實我希望的是說在這樣子的法律是否能理解或者自白的法律的效力在哪裡"},{"start":348.524,"end":374.952,"text":"好跟委員報告就是我們如果查獲這一些的一個詐欺的這個犯罪不管是哪一個國籍的在偵查過程當中我們的同意是沒有問題的就是會充分的表達他的這個整個相關的整個情節那我們是有同意的你會粵語就粵語的同意啦英文就英文啦日文就日文啦這個同意是是在執行面是沒有問題"},{"start":376.018,"end":391.869,"text":"好因為剛才我們次長說就是馬上就可以處理所以我才要問說如果是馬上處理他們還不懂他們的因為很多人就是為了自己說脫罪啊什麼的所以他們就馬上說我這個我就自首但是問題我們是要要的是辦案要找到主謀嘛這個最主要的工作嘛不是說他自首就好了所以說因為這今年"},{"start":405.158,"end":416.39,"text":"這幾年啊 移工涉案 詐欺案的就是很多嘛 因為你們的報紙一直在登所以警政署雖然已製作很多的語言先導還有就是翻譯 有這樣子的效果"},{"start":419.774,"end":434.873,"text":"我一直在強調說詐騙集團一直利用在台的就是所有議員來當作他們的車手當他們的詐騙集團但是我們警政署這邊有沒有個就是"},{"start":436.234,"end":453.61,"text":"應用這一群在台灣的來去專門去抓這些人的我覺得才真正是你們的助手啦所以但是我們看到的就是希望我們警政署就是這三年關於就是針對移工的宣導還有線上的推播"},{"start":456.252,"end":459.554,"text":"總廠次 還有總處級的人數按照越南語 泰國語 菲律賓語就是我們東南亞語的語言所以我們要看到在媒介 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市長我想請教一下未來我們2027年開始全面禁用廚餘所以目前你們有沒有預估一下全國我們每日的去化量是多少"},{"start":41.126,"end":69.378,"text":"他要準備資料是不是那未來就是說這些廚餘如果不能用蒸煮養豬的方式的時候那怎麼樣子處理這些廚餘就我所知道在環境部裡面其實對於廚餘的區劃現在當然很多都是用去焚化爐處理但是其實也不是只有這個方式包括是做堆肥包括是做生殖能也包括做黑水盲的處理其實它有多元的處理方式在做"},{"start":71.358,"end":95.308,"text":"對 可是有沒有辦法啊2027年之前有沒有辦法這些量能都出來能夠處理全國的這個廚餘量啊是不是那我們現在沒有禁用的原因是在於你們認為沒有辦法消化這些廚餘量嘛那未來有沒有辦法在2027年之前有沒有辦法"},{"start":95.928,"end":117.371,"text":"在環境部其實他有加大處理的這個量能包圍有一些高效處理的也包括一些加大做生殖能的一些處理特別現在是每天有2115所以這個東西是環境部要負責他們主責是不是環境部好那所以未來如果這個就是說不能禁用廚餘了那"},{"start":117.931,"end":134.591,"text":"所有的相關的廚餘處理的費用是在農業部邊還是在環境部那怎麼樣子協助地方廚餘還是回歸到廚餘的處理那這個我們在前天跟22縣市其實有"},{"start":135.692,"end":161.353,"text":"中央災害面中心有跟22縣市有開會過那22縣市目前就廚餘處理的方向大概只有桃園稍稍有困難因為桃園目前廚餘養豬的戶數比較多所以在桃園又特別是都會區所以它的廚餘處理相對困難其他21縣市目前都還OK那環境部那邊也會協助來做一些區化的輔導跟做一些設備的補助"},{"start":162.827,"end":178.156,"text":"那除了就是說我相信在生殖能方面就是說你們過去也有規劃就是廚餘的生殖能就是發電的這個部分可是目前好像全國的這個廚餘的發電廠也不多對不對"},{"start":181.571,"end":197.717,"text":"應該是在它的設備建置的位置其實很多都是跟他們的焚化廠建在一起因為本來那邊就在處理一些回收的東西因為台中的生殖能廠它是有生除於目前好像只有兩座"},{"start":198.337,"end":226.55,"text":"那就是生殖能就是廚餘用來生殖能發電的這個部分那台中的只有收生廚餘那桃園的只有收熟廚餘那這樣子的情況下如果我們希望說可以把廚餘變做可以發電的就是另外一個生殖能的電量也是一個綠能的來源的時候那這樣子的情況好像目前量能也不足"},{"start":227.21,"end":253.916,"text":"基本上其實環境部是會支持把廚餘做再利用不管是去做生殖能去做堆肥去做黑水那你說現在到底環境部的進行的速度是怎麼樣這個可能要問環境部對你們要你們發布禁用廚餘的這個命令結果環境部都沒有相關的因應的方式那未來怎麼樣子處理這些廚餘"},{"start":255.885,"end":280.235,"text":"我們全國要怎麼樣處理這些廚餘這個環境部應該是有規劃一些加強的一些協助方案在做那其實金融廚餘這件事情在農業部的立場其實是為了讓非洲豬瘟不再發生我想在疾病控制這塊我知道那這也是農民這也是一些農民他們希望的方向嘛是不是那但是你"},{"start":281.576,"end":308.206,"text":"就是說你禁用廚餘你需要能夠處理這些廚餘啊那如果環境部都沒有以後去督促環境部所進行的程度不然這些東西最後還是會回到我們的養豬戶或者是其他的相關的其實環境部更擔心的是廚餘如果沒有處理好是造成一個社會的髒亂跟其他的亂丟棄對 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部長就這一次我們在看到最近有國人在海外尋求緊急救援的這個狀況因為我想外交部它存在的一個主要的目的就是要發展對外關係還有維護國家的利益更重要的當然也是要保護國人尤其當國人在國外發生緊急事況"},{"start":46.751,"end":61.259,"text":"狀況的時候 駐外人員在國人求援的時候希望可以及時提供支援那近日在媒體報導國人在阿布達比轉機的時候突然遭到武裝人員帶走那就這個狀況因為當時在"},{"start":64.358,"end":81.955,"text":"請求救援的時候那外交部的杜拜辦事處他給予的回應大概就是因為跟阿布達比沒有正式往來的管道沒有辦法向警方詢問拘捕的原因然後又鏈接給他自行去找這個律師"},{"start":83.256,"end":86.397,"text":"就這個部分因為民眾在發生這些事情的時候尤其是在非常陌生的一個國家他們在這個部分他到底要怎麼找就這個部分這一次其實幸好只是同名同姓被誤抓那就這個部分部長有什麼看法"},{"start":102.883,"end":129.057,"text":"陳盧委員所講因為我們涉杜拜的辦事處這個事件在第一個時間發生是在阿布達比因為我們沒有正式的外交關係以及一些管處的外交特權所以在交涉上雖然積極主動但是能夠掌握一開始資訊有限不過很快的也就跟他們這個政府還有警方聯繫上確保他的安全跟所在地然後之後就從阿布達比他們就把他移送回來到"},{"start":129.857,"end":144.689,"text":"杜拜這個時候我們的這個住管的這個代表就是都有在關心照應包括事後他這個釋放的時候到他的這個我們代表的管處啊去居住"},{"start":145.209,"end":149.331,"text":"這個中間因為您現在這樣敘述可是因為當事人沒有辦法這樣體會所以我想在發生事情的狀況之下尤其他是好幾天都沒有消息那如果說我們的住外管理處有可以透過更多的管道因為他們第一時間給的訊息就是剛剛講的那兩個自己找律師因為只有家屬可以找那還有他太太去如果沒有只有他自己一個人"},{"start":172.299,"end":176.663,"text":"報告委員因為他太太又離開了他沒有留在他本來就應該要離開他要怎麼留在那裡這個後面的人在那裡在那裡帶風向說他太太跟著旅行團去他當然要跟著去啊不然他到時候怎麼回來"},{"start":187.651,"end":189.513,"text":"因為請律師是要他太太授權啊對 如果 那授權沒有問題啊如果我們的駐外單位那也可以 駐外單位可以請他的太太留下來除非他不願意 那你可以釋放這樣的消息如果不是 因為你叫他自己去找這是第一點 第二個沒關係啦 我們不用看報導啦 部長"},{"start":209.872,"end":211.434,"text":"因為發生的狀況已經是這樣我們的那個住管單位也沒有留下他啊就是說如果今天如果有很明確的作為那當然就是錯誤的報導今天家屬的感受這是第一線我想要用這個事件"},{"start":226.753,"end":228.915,"text":"來請教一下因為我們希望發生事情的時候我們不是在這裡爭辯說那個後續怎麼樣那個是有錯誤的那是有什麼樣的誤解我們要的是在當下你可以做什麼樣的一個救援的行動因為最近也剛好很多大陸很多的我們"},{"start":248.291,"end":251.733,"text":"像我們在委員會有很多的委員或者我們現在執政黨的委員其實也提到前一陣子大陸公安局對許多政治人物或者在軍中服役的人員以涉嫌從事分裂國家活動發布通緝的事件這個應該記憶猶新"},{"start":266.843,"end":268.786,"text":"現在如果當這些人在海外也發生類似的事件的時候我們應該要怎麼樣的救援因為剛剛提到阿布達比這個他不是第一次可是他也不會是最後一次尤其現在中共已經發布這樣的通緝令如果這些人"},{"start":285.307,"end":290.77,"text":"在海外發生這樣的狀況的時候其實這就是我們在遇到事情的時候應該要怎麼做我想這個應該要一個SOP我們今天會提出來詢問也是希望外交部應該就這個部分今天一個名人都我們一般的國人都可以發生這樣的狀況如果現在這些人還包括是我們國家可能栽培的這些軍事人員都可能發生的時候我們應該有什麼樣的SOP"},{"start":313.4,"end":325.178,"text":"還是他們就可以受到比較多的關注部長您怎麼看我們有SOP而且照SOP在可以怎麼做SOP怎麼做因為上一次就是這樣啊四天沒有消息啊那大家一定會很緊張嘛後來是因為他是誤抓"},{"start":329.364,"end":334.929,"text":"萬一今天如果不是的時候我們應該怎麼做現在有沒有辦法提出一個簡單的SOP或者在這個部分應該怎麼樣研擬一個更好的一個協助的方式或者救援的方式這個部分部長是現在回答還是你希望可以有一個有些特殊的規定我們當然也會按照這個例子因為我們沒有邦交而且有外交的這個特權或豁免"},{"start":357.088,"end":369.994,"text":"所以在進行的時候因為對方的法律有規定必須要由他的這個家屬來授權我知道 部長我們不用去討論那個聘請律師或什麼今天假如是沈伯陽委員假如是沈伯陽委員在外國不曉得哪一個國家萬一發生這樣的狀況的時候我們外交部可以怎麼做"},{"start":379.159,"end":383.24,"text":"我們現在很完整針對所有的國家包括它跟中國或台灣有沒有涉及這個引渡啦或者是司法互助條約然後有沒有這個相關的刑法的規定啦至於說它有沒有政治上有一中或是過去有沒有案例就是說配合中共我們都有把它歸類然後根據每個情況有沒有代表處在那邊"},{"start":405.566,"end":409.489,"text":"然後進行這個分類我想我在這裡提醒因為我們有設代表處的非常少啦如果要比較起來那中共當然相對很多今天如果發生相關的事態的時候我們有111個管處111個管處你要怎麼做我剛剛舉例如果是沈伯陽委員他在外面發生這樣的情況你會怎麼做我們希望你可以有一個有效的SOP讓大家非常清楚因為剛剛你講的大家還是不懂"},{"start":430.703,"end":443.352,"text":"所以我還如果還是要找自己找律師那還是束手無策萬一只有一個人的時候他根本沒有家屬在現場的時候那完全措手不及也沒有能力所以就怎麼樣如果國人發生這樣的狀況的時候你有什麼樣的SOP"},{"start":448.696,"end":454.137,"text":"有 包括要準備交涉營救還有這個在這個過程裡面我們已經講得很清楚就是因為你這個事件只是誤抓就已經拖了四五天他沒有辦法及時或者第一時間沒有拖了四五天其實24號的時候我們接貨電話之後25號就已經確認他的地點而且是安全的那既然安全後續就是依照他們的法律程序來處理"},{"start":475.521,"end":493.751,"text":"今天我一直強調他是被誤抓今天如果是我們的過去在軍中比如說電展示之前被公布的那些人他們出去的時候請外交部有一個明確的SOP的一個說明讓我們國人更清楚的知道這個部分請提出來好不好是"},{"start":494.471,"end":498.193,"text":"好 因為我們希望大家不是在事後講這個我們強調的他是被誤抓今天如果是其他人就不是我們也要求這個對方給我們外交部要有能力解釋說明因為在這裡我要特別再提一個就是我們最近"},{"start":509.941,"end":518.606,"text":"包括中部的或我們南投其實有很多接到很多的陳情案我們目前在緬甸柬埔寨其實至少有兩三千個國人在那裡不管是被騙被迫或者是自願在那裡現在可能有很多人想要回來回不來他們發出求救的訊息尤其是家屬現在就只有家屬能求救我們可以有什麼樣的作為"},{"start":534.878,"end":555.898,"text":"有 我們跟包括警政署還有法務部都有很多的分隊處理的程序也營救過數百人那有一些因為涉及到那些國家他跟中共的配合有一些被遣送"},{"start":556.699,"end":571.731,"text":"到這個中國也有這種情形部長我現在講的是說我們的國人現在在那裡求助無門你剛剛說我們的警政如果有個案的話再請委員提因為我們基本上應該是很密切在注意跟因應可以協助嘛 對不對外交部可以部長在這裡說這樣的承諾"},{"start":573.632,"end":582.1,"text":"我們希望這個部分可以盡速的協助把國人救回來因為他們發出求救的訊息他們求助無門所以才會轉到我們這裡來那如果剛剛部長有這麼明確的一個說法我們希望可以盡速的去採取營救的行動因為像韓國一樣因為我們不要只敢對中共講"},{"start":593.871,"end":597.035,"text":"只有敢對他叫囂韓國那時候他們直接對柬埔寨或緬甸像這些詐騙集團像這些園區他們發出的怒吼是說不可以動韓國人不然雖遠必誅"},{"start":610.074,"end":628.488,"text":"所以如果我們敢有這樣的魄力我們的國人才有機會才有希望這個部分我們把個案再交給外交部再請部長這邊可以協助盡速處理因為每一條都是很重要的人命好 謝謝那先部長先請回我請蔡局長委員好"},{"start":636.212,"end":651.533,"text":"局長好今天在媒體上面有一則訊息大概就是針對我們軍情局跟荷蘭可能有一些在情報上面的一個交流可是這個算是情報洩漏還是"},{"start":653.456,"end":680.675,"text":"什麼狀況 局長有掌握今天的這個軍情 有看到一早上我注意到 也請軍情局可能要再徹查了解一下狀況那另外跟委員補充 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安諾在警政署十月份的時候公布我們上半年對於全國人民對於治安滿意度的狀況調查中顯示出國人對於在住家或社區附近各縣市的治安滿意度是高的但是卻對於全國整體治安只有51%的滿意度"},{"start":34.788,"end":61.814,"text":"這個形成很強烈的對比也就是說到我家附近我都覺得很安全但是對於全國治安不滿意度這個比例非常懸殊那我們探究的原因最重要的因素不同於過去黑幫槍械或毒品犯罪或詐騙其實是直接威脅到全國人民感受最深的覺得台灣治安不好它只有五成一的滿意度"},{"start":63.354,"end":78.401,"text":"雖然我們政府無論警政署無論金管會這邊我們丟出各項工具我們都努力的打仗但是從目前的成效來看大家國人對於打仗的成效其實大家還是不滿意的"},{"start":79.232,"end":94.363,"text":"那我覺得最糟糕的是大部分被詐騙民眾被詐騙了之後錢拿不回來這個是最主要原因因為很多人問我說錢拿不拿的回來我都只能很抱歉的跟他講說我覺得有一定的困難度"},{"start":95.423,"end":123.07,"text":"那個時間一超過車手一轉出去之後錢幾乎是回不來了所以銀行局我們底下做了很多的努力包括很多經濟的措施包括零貴的關懷包括阻攔非法的金流我們做了很多的努力但是在這一塊我想先請問主委你對於目前打炸的方向你個人滿不滿意你可以自己打幾分在金管會的部分"},{"start":123.769,"end":141.075,"text":"我覺得打炸就是我當然不滿意因為主要是這個還是非常的多但是呢我們因為冰冷的數字沒辦法對國人有相同的感受是 主委你講對了因為我今天問題很多你不滿意國人也不滿意那當然"},{"start":142.976,"end":160.047,"text":"錢拿不回來最主要原因但是我們更擔心的是你很多的靈慧關懷去攔阻非法的金流很多人也擔心說被騙的錢拿不回來但是沒被騙的帳戶被凍結這個是我相信很多委員都在現場跟"},{"start":161.668,"end":173.582,"text":"主委溝通過的很多民眾就對於打詐失去信心被騙了拿不回來我真的有要啟用的時候我被攔截而且解凍還要花一段時間這才是最麻煩的"},{"start":176.305,"end":199.094,"text":"就是說金融業在零貴關懷的部分做過了頭沒有一個更清楚的標示跟標準有時候馬上要急用的反而花了好幾個鐘頭甚至一天的時間他才可以解凍這個是現在我們所聽到在基層跟我們澄清的方向那當然我們在上個月11月15號我們金融業防詐的措施"},{"start":200.054,"end":227.406,"text":"主委你宣布了有幾個三大重點我們要以AI防制以精準為目標服務不中斷申訴要迅速阻詐要徹底聯防要到位剛才主委已經說對於目前的成效是不滿意的我這邊接受到的成績除了我剛講的之外人工的複合流程有時候要達到一天到兩天這個就對於很多急用的人"},{"start":228.393,"end":252.829,"text":"他也求助無門有些人還會找上我們幫他證明說這個真的是誰誰誰找他家人一起來身份證一起確認有些人他不認識任何人他真的有急用家裡有緊急傷臟住院還是繳什麼費用的時候真的無從去解決沒有辦法去找到一個平衡點所以主委我要提醒你就是說我們現在AI造成的帳戶誤動的現況它不是偶發性的"},{"start":257.079,"end":279.677,"text":"如果從我這邊聽到還有很多委員不同黨派大家都在這邊澄清我們就可以關注到那個AI的錯誤它有可能是呈現結構性的偏誤所以我們現在有四種AI結構會造成偏誤的狀況包括高齡者跟小兒戶很多高齡的長輩他通常是現金交易轉帳的頻率低可是他"},{"start":280.558,"end":306.763,"text":"突然轉帳就會被視為是異常有這個需求 他就變成異常零工族跟平台族他的收入不穩定 很多元那他會被容易判斷是可疑的金流跨區就學者或家庭的支持者經常因為進行跨縣市的匯款他時間不固定所以會被認為是人頭帳戶會被認為是警示帳戶所以他臨櫃的時候有時候都會接到電話"},{"start":308.163,"end":324.236,"text":"被關注到這會變成他們的困擾包括受補助或零貴資金入帳的時候因為帳戶很長時間沒有動用那突然有補助或親人入帳可能會觸發中型敏感的那個警示出現所以"},{"start":325.225,"end":350.893,"text":"主委就是說我們這樣的系統的問題偏誤是背離我們普惠金融的要求我想主委你非常清楚知道我在說什麼所以未來AI的訓練其實是非常重要的其實AI是可以透過訓練的那我們AI當然也可以評估做風險高低的評估區分譬如說限額轉帳他轉帳只有低以下的金額你不要花那麼多的"},{"start":351.793,"end":360.198,"text":"利器 我不應該這麼說就是你應該去區分我如果只是局部的凍結或限額的轉帳跟全部凍結它應該要有不同層次的管控才對我如果只是限額的或局部的轉帳你應該跟全部大量的轉帳你應該有不同層次的管控跟管理才對"},{"start":373.766,"end":399.713,"text":"而不是同一個標準警察派出所同仁也來然後兩三個人都圍著那些那只是幾萬塊的轉賬只是他面臨這四種不同的狀況所以主委我們在這一塊達到普惠金融的目的我覺得這一塊應該勢必要調整面對民眾的陳情那第一時間到底多快可以解凍我們排除了所有的問題之後"},{"start":401.073,"end":422.746,"text":"我們可不可以要求第一時間可以再多快解凍我覺得這個應該要更明確告訴我們金融業者主委你怎麼解決這些問題其實謝謝委員給我這個時間說明剛剛委員說我滿不滿意打詐騙消失之前我想政府官員沒有滿意的空間這是一個我們一定要做的"},{"start":423.578,"end":439.663,"text":"但是就是說我們不可諱言就是在主詐過程當中一定會有一個學習的過程剛才那個委員有提到但是被誤控的民眾的感受我想是特別強烈的但是我們我在這邊還要再講一次"},{"start":440.933,"end":461.047,"text":"我們政策上可以大家來討論批評但是我覺得在第一線的打炸的負責第一線的這些同胞包該委員提到在現場去主炸的員警跟航員我們都要全力的支持當然支持 但是我再提醒問題出在哪裡你要有不同層次的管控"},{"start":461.787,"end":484.159,"text":"其實我們在做的時候剛才第一波在採用的時候確實我覺得他們在學習的過程當中做得不好我們也把銀行找來特別特別的跟他們講了很多所以他們開始提出很多很多的管控我想最近應該是應該又有所改變我們也不可諱言的就是說我們做這樣的管控以後確實警示帳戶從這麼長遠來那個角度來看開始"},{"start":488.381,"end":508.98,"text":"減緩甚至下降我想這件事情就是一個明顯的過去這麼長久來警示賬戶都一直直線的上升我想這部分是努力但是我覺得這個成本如果說要由這些比如說剛剛委員提醒的這部分我們一定會來精進這個方法方向不變方法一定要調整我想這部分一定是我們在什麼時候可以有"},{"start":509.841,"end":528.668,"text":"不同的 方向不變我支持 當然方向不變因為我們要打仗 我們要阻斷金流但是 方法如何去做調整AI如何更精進的去做更多不同的訓練因為AI可以訓練嘛你有可以不同層次的管制措施我們的林桂官我也都支持 我覺得大家都很辛苦"},{"start":529.388,"end":552.632,"text":"但是你要趕快去有不同的標準趕快去有一個標準實施教育告訴金融業者我們針對不同的層次我們要怎麼去加強這個幾乎是我們同仁每天每天的工作每天都要跟這些因為我們會接到各式各樣的陳情我們也要去處理我們會跟銀行幹任何一個悟空的個案都成為很好學習的教材我想這部分我們會不斷的方法來進行"},{"start":552.952,"end":580.695,"text":"你刚讲教材主委我相信你知道这是教材那你也了解但是第一线知不知道包括AI人文训练林贵的金融业者第一线也了不了解这些事情我们听到的抱怨太多主委我不是在跟你吵架我是把问题让你知道那这个问题已经存在很久也不是我李燕秀一个人在这边质询过一定有别人跟你沟通过真正需要用钱在第一时间有紧急用的时候往往解冻的时间"},{"start":581.636,"end":605.318,"text":"不是幾個小時有時候到一兩天他變成要去跟別人借錢要跟別人臉皮很薄要去跟別人開口跟里長借錢所以這個是造成不便的原因這我們完全體會所以主委我今天要的就是說你多久時間可以把這些現況我不敢邀請說你一步到位達到我的要求但是你至少可以有層次的告訴我"},{"start":606.619,"end":620.668,"text":"在管制措施上你會趕快去做多少時間會做當然你或許不能打擾我百分之百的目的其實這是跟委員講這是我們日常在做的而且我們也不斷在優化在請他們在做我最後想講一下就是說"},{"start":621.926,"end":640.984,"text":"在主詐過程當中就像比如說我們真的被成功主詐了通常聲音很小但是呢比如說他認為誤控了聲音就會很大這是我們面對的壓力包括剪調有跟我們講說很多詐團員詐團員會利用這個輿論來主銷我覺得我都知道身為政務官 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我們有請林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":10.58,"end":37.747,"text":"我也好部長好那我想呢今天非常多的委員都關心一樣的問題那就是因為對我們中華民國來說很重要那首先就是剛才有提到的這個洪都拉斯那今天在媒體訪問的時候您有講說呢對於洪都拉斯這個2023年斷交之後是不是有可能跟中華民國重新復交因為我們看到呢目前他們的兩位總統這個參選人都有提出類似的這個主張"},{"start":38.647,"end":58.857,"text":"那您在這邊呢是公開講說這個沒有預設任何立場可是我想要問比較具體的就是說我們到底有沒有這個已經準備好了具體的規劃然後呢因為您剛剛講說跟這些候選人他們都有一些接觸嘛但我想問的是不是單純的就是兩邊之間有沒有互動"},{"start":59.517,"end":72.45,"text":"而是中華民國這邊如果我們要準備希望能夠重新跟這個洪都拉斯復交的話那我們具體的規劃比如說合作方式那可能是會有哪一些"},{"start":73.16,"end":96.378,"text":"是 報告委員我們外交部現在有推出龍邦計畫有八大旗艦都會對應未來的邦交國如果要建立關係的時候他所重視的政策方向另外當然外界也了解那我們針對洪都拉斯的部分可以講一下因為您剛剛講邦交國但是現在他並不是我們的邦交國可是我們希望他重新成為我們的邦交國"},{"start":97.179,"end":117.297,"text":"所以我們一定在這個部分不管是投入一些合作方案或是採購計畫等等的那我們會有一些就像是我們跟友邦之間都會有這樣子的一個合作嘛那您剛講的我們會看這個各國的需要那從您外交部長的角度來說現在宏都拉斯他需要什麼那我們能夠拿出什麼來跟宏都拉斯做合作"},{"start":118.517,"end":135.843,"text":"因為宏都拉斯旁邊的鄰國包括瓜地馬拉貝里斯我們都有很多的籠包計畫在推動那對於宏都拉斯在選舉當中有成為問題在討論的事就是那個所謂白蝦出口的問題那事實上宏都拉斯的白蝦產業也是台灣去幫他發展的"},{"start":136.863,"end":147.63,"text":"那現在中共這個食言而肥而且大量的傾銷廉價的物品到宏都拉斯打擊了他們的經濟跟就業那所以我們是要創造未來宏都拉斯如果跟我們建立邦交之後能夠讓他有發展經濟然後創造就業那至於說我們的這些進出口包括像白蝦台灣的白蝦的這個需求量是很大的所以我們是有這樣的一個市場"},{"start":164.381,"end":188.597,"text":"可以來歡迎洪都拉斯的白蝦能夠輸到台灣因為我們其實在斷交以來看到太多跟白蝦有關的新聞所以說接下來如果我們有機會能夠跟洪都拉斯復交或者是我們努力再跟這個新任的總統無論是哪一位然後跟他們建議說我們有復交的機會的時候我們會提出採購白蝦"},{"start":190.678,"end":212.59,"text":"進出口作為我們的一個合作基礎是這樣子嗎我想不管是我們政府的推動或民間的自發的行動一定會很歡迎跟大量的採購洪都拉斯的白蝦民間自發性是民間的事但我們要問的是政府會不會有系統跟有效率性的去推動此一計畫作為雙邊的合作基礎"},{"start":214.891,"end":229.637,"text":"對 因為我們市場有這個需求而且它的品質不錯好 那這樣我了解了那再來呢最近這個賴清的總統啊他突然很關心香港那剛好這個香港呢他有發生這個不幸的火災事件"},{"start":230.217,"end":258.656,"text":"那雖然我也要提到這個台北經濟文化辦事處在香港是陸委會所屬的並非外交部但是呢因為過去對香港的議題我們過去外交部也經常的會在世界各國都會有發表意見的這個空間那所以呢還有這次的大火的傷亡是全世界都有國家在關心喔所以我想要問一下外交部對於這次香港大火的看法那如果是關心除了關心以外會不會有一些實際的這個行動"},{"start":261.779,"end":276.613,"text":"當然我們配合陸委會進行社外的事務因為在香港方面主管機關是陸委會至於說國際上我想對於發生這種不幸的事情我們一定是表達關懷那"},{"start":279.676,"end":294.284,"text":"至於我們能夠做什麼因為涉及到現在是中共直接在控制香港你看現在即使有一些香港民間不是啊 香港本來就是這個他們就97年就回歸啦但是他們已經徹底有點把香港"},{"start":295.605,"end":320.95,"text":"有一點這個包括不管選舉啦還有這些政黨啦還有這些控制所以在那個雨傘革命之前的時候我們這個在談說撐香港但是在雨傘革命之後那到現在來說的話會認為就是說對香港這個部分那就是如果我們去協助或是說過度的這個關心的話那會變成是說跟中共唱和您的意思是這樣嗎不是啦"},{"start":321.738,"end":347.339,"text":"因為中共對於香港民間發動的要求去針對這個事件去調查或是聲援都是如臨大敵我們的表示方式怎麼樣能夠人道的程式我們表達關懷至於實質能夠做什麼我們當然也在了解可是因為很容易就會引起北京當局"},{"start":348.36,"end":357.529,"text":"他可能從政治去支持關心協助甚至捐款給香港那北京他怎麼會"},{"start":358.772,"end":376.656,"text":"現在北京完全控制香港沒有那個自由的空間我們連很多社團現在都被控制我的意思是說你今天如果去聲援或是支持香港的話那北京怎麼會不高興呢就從他的角度來說再者今天是一個人道的世界他可能會認為他通敵啦或是什麼反間諜啦這個很多所以香港"},{"start":381.737,"end":399.867,"text":"進去都要很小心的因為他要常被管轄所以你認為說如果今天我們的政府主動的協助香港的話那被協助的人他會被中共認為說跟台灣之間有通敵的行為然後造成他的人身安全的危險嗎我是說因為香港現在被中共"},{"start":400.687,"end":413.2,"text":"送中之後它的控制是非常嚴連它民間自發的行動都禁止那以前四川地震的時候那也是中國大陸我們不是也有人到關懷也有這個協助捐款嗎我們當然也要因應這個新的情勢不是 我的意思是說像以前有四川大地震那中國大陸也有發生過很多這個不幸的事件"},{"start":423.47,"end":442.007,"text":"那這個兩岸之間的這個特別的關係也一直都存在那我們基於人道考量的立場其實過去也經常的去協助中國大陸那怎麼就沒有這個問題我跟委員報告立正他因為事後的傷害持續所以你要做損害控管救災可是這個火災他當時我們也是捐款"},{"start":443.408,"end":446.689,"text":"當然他的需要我想我們不管政府或民間一定會表達我們的支持以實質的行動來去幫助可是我意思是說就這個災害來講他火災不管他去救責他已經結束了當然事後什麼傷亡去處理這是一個這跟地震或是颱風水災是不太一樣我們也無從去那邊參與救災"},{"start":466.676,"end":488.203,"text":"沒有說要去參與救災我們明天有那個大體老師啊或者是一些修復屍體的他們就主動表達我們政府也是都很支持希望大家以各種行動來關懷您在這邊是在表達就是說希望大家可以用各種形式來關懷香港的大火事件是這樣嗎對就從人道主義的精神來說是這樣嗎"},{"start":489.744,"end":514.656,"text":"那您剛講的就是說所謂這個兩岸關係的一些衝突的問題講到所謂的通敵然後還有香港的這個事情應該不是指說如果今天這個台灣去協助香港或是政府的政策然後呢您的主張來人道關懷香港來協助那會使得被這個協助方然後變成是說被指控為通敵的對象你認為這樣的事情會發生嗎"},{"start":515.196,"end":543.675,"text":"就是說陸委會有在關懷我們也是支持現在就是說因為他現在是中共直接控制香港他會政治化很多所以我們在處理很多行動而且他中共已經關閉了跟我們的在港澳的這個管道嘛所以陸委會沒辦法派人去啊也沒辦法都沒辦法好那我知道了那另外最後要請教一下這個就外交問題了那剛剛也辛苦您了就是說因為特別就我知道主責是在陸委會一開始我問的時候我就提了但是因為"},{"start":544.355,"end":564.377,"text":"涉及到香港的問題的時候過去外交部也都蠻常經常有一些發言的再來他是一個世界現在都關心的人道事件所以我才請您也表達一下我們國家的立場我們總統也有表達另外就是有關於我們在加勒比海的邦交國聖文森及格瑞納丁的總理"},{"start":564.958,"end":588.824,"text":"那因為他一直跟大陸的方有接觸但是呢最近我也看到外交部有講說我們一定會盡可能來鞏固雙邊的關係那目前呢也不擔心說這個可能會有斷交的危機是這樣吧對那呢一般來說我們的邦交國跟中國大陸互動之前會跟我們做一些溝通那請問一下這一次有沒有"},{"start":591.172,"end":605.591,"text":"因為這個新的總理跟我們都維持很好的關係他也沒有說要政策的改變他現在就職之後我們也跟他在討論他關心的施政的重點他關心的施政重點是哪一個部分"},{"start":606.152,"end":635.142,"text":"他很關心就是有關於內政特別是這些中小微企業啦年輕人的就業那他施政的重點跟先前這個龔薩福總理席間是不太一樣所以我們也在跟他討論因為我們會有很多跟他的這些合作項目那我想問一下那我們具體有哪一些比較主要的這個合作項目的規劃可能性那是這個盛文森他們有需求的"},{"start":635.962,"end":644.305,"text":"本來的前政府當然是重視很多大型建設包括醫院啦相關的這些基礎建設可是這個新的總理啊這Friday他重視的是更實質比較是屬於基層人民的需求像什麼我剛講比如說一些融資貸款啦讓他們可以創業啦或是一些平民的住宅啦"},{"start":659.03,"end":673.34,"text":"銀行類的這種借貸類的那住宅是指說工程類的不是我想他希望能夠創造給他們十億萬的人民都能夠在生活實質上的改善比較不是大型的建設"},{"start":674.18,"end":691.346,"text":"他希望做生活實際上改善我自己我知道但我要問的是說我們在外交上面的合作上面能夠如何協助我們總不可能你們總不可能會我相信不會就他希望人民都過得好我們就幫他們去發錢給民眾不會是這樣的合作不會 我們有榮邦計畫做基礎"},{"start":692.366,"end":704.559,"text":"所以我要問的是說那既然他有這樣子的內政規劃那要與我們共同合作外交的合作那我們從外交的角度來說可以跟他們具體產生什麼樣的合作來幫助他的內政計劃"},{"start":706.843,"end":718.249,"text":"對 就是要跟他就施政的重點嘛對啊優先的項目來進行討論就是我的問題就是有哪一些項目是我們現在規劃說可能可以合作的就像我剛剛第一題問你的時候你就講得很清楚嘛就是那這個我們現在的這個規劃的項目大概有哪幾個項目像你說宏都拉斯你就講說那我們未來可能在白蝦的採購上面那從政策的角度上面也會鼓勵民間等等那我要問一下盛文森的部分"},{"start":733.297,"end":736.44,"text":"他是對藍色經濟還有這所謂的他們要成立一個類似國民銀行然後能夠放貸然後融資給這些中小微企業還有一般的平民讓他可以有創業就業的機會好我了解了謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6b0e2faf6b478dfc44cd0246cdf0bd28b7be3e8fe055fbc137b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:20:39 - 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如果這是真的話那政府的補助不只沒有幫助到漁民還間接讓盤商有空間殺得更狠那這是你們的本意嗎這我能了解一下 因為其實照顧農民才是我們要做的事情"},{"start":272.015,"end":289.851,"text":"所以我在這裡呼籲次長 農業部必須訂出一套穩定市場的補助措施而且補助必須直接補助到漁民啊否則他們哀哀叫啊變成是這件事情 你們越補助他們越辛苦那這合理嗎 不合理吧"},{"start":291.241,"end":318.706,"text":"我們要先了解一下因為其實能夠直接對接我們的農民漁民才是而且我也想知道說我們這190億特別預算通過之後到底哪些是在支應這些漁業的補助有多少我們在包括是說在這個加工跟包裝運材還有團散的獎勵計畫那還有他的一個加工處理這樣子多少目前我們是大概規劃的有"},{"start":324.288,"end":350.387,"text":"好 不知道 都不知道可見你們有多不重視這件事情根本不知道漁民也不知道你們補助到哪裡去了這麼多的錢到底基層的漁民問說政府有看到我們嗎我們到底有拿到什麼所以我在這裡希望說對於拿補助的這些盤商一定要訂定最低的收購價格否則這些漁民就會任人宰割"},{"start":351.147,"end":371.914,"text":"那第二呢希望有一個機制能夠正視漁民的困境直接補助漁民那設備盤商這個包括合作社每一個環節都很重要但是絕對不能夠影響最最根本的就是我們的漁民所以呢我再繼續再講你們這個冷鏈的補助辦法也非常好笑"},{"start":373.069,"end":400.099,"text":"我今年8月的時候曾經向部長曾經向部長說過吳國瑜鱸魚業者包括我們的這個可能台灣鯛等等大家關心的這個冷鏈設備補助當時部長就說只有限漁會但是最後在我要求之下呢他們把合作社也納入那這一項我很肯定那我想請問次長目前這一項冷鏈補助的受理期限到底到什麼時候呢"},{"start":401.617,"end":410.729,"text":"都沒有停啊 到年底都可以是啊 到2025年的12月31號到2025年的12月31號那你們是什麼時候發布可以開始申請補助的8月對不對"},{"start":418.306,"end":446.733,"text":"你知道我要反映一個現實處境現在缺工缺料要從零開始到建制這個冷凍倉儲至少需要一年以上那目前的補助規定必須完工驗收才能申請那你覺得你到12月31號有可能建好可以申請嗎我想我們這個會繼續啦怎麼繼續你要講清楚啊明年還是可以來申請啊不是是明年是什麼時候你要講清楚你現在講清楚什麼叫做明年也可以來申請"},{"start":447.933,"end":460.899,"text":"今年已經有造成事實 已經有合約 有申請的其實今年沒有辦法完工 我們可以讓他明年再來你的補助規定是 要完工驗收才能申請所以完工就每年來申請啊你的規範就夠今年3月31號這我們現場來處理"},{"start":470.384,"end":478.671,"text":"你們要趕快啊 你們要明定出來 否則這些業者心裡想說你八位這麼酸薄 要怎麼十二位就去好了還可以行刑 真是看得到吃不到耶不會啦 一定會讓大家能夠用得到這些錢好 麻煩拜託了 請那個次長是不是能夠盡快的公告 盡快公告讓這一些真的想要做的人能夠安心不然大家不敢啦"},{"start":494.245,"end":517.059,"text":"大家怎麼敢 這一次申請你知道嗎 一次做下去是好幾百萬 可能上千萬的他明明知道他可能來不及 他怎麼敢做那不是明擺在那 大家都沒有辦法拿到這筆補助嗎好 這我們來做行政上面的調整 謝謝那另外呢 我想要問的就是有關於那個次長知道現在日本雄害很嚴重嗎"},{"start":518.581,"end":539.216,"text":"知道嗎 其實有傷害到人的這個 有一百多級對他們觀光也有影響 是雄害那我們很幸運我們還沒有雄害但是我們的山區有另外一種危害就是喉嗨我不曉得你有沒有看過喉嗨有看過那個喉嗨的影片嗎你看一下可以播嗎"},{"start":550.425,"end":569.523,"text":"這些喉嗨呢嚴重影響了我們在山區的這個農民你看他的火龍果被吃了他的柳丁被吃了然後他的柑橘他的咖啡數個月的這些心血"},{"start":570.564,"end":580.251,"text":"猴子 可能5分鐘 10分鐘就一次把他都摧毀了 我想請問次長針對猴害你們目前有什麼樣的對策呢"},{"start":581.28,"end":608.366,"text":"其實在不同地方造成的這個入侵的形態不太一樣像這個果園其實它不見得是肚子餓它其實就是在那邊玩把它都毀損了對呀所以其實谷坑那邊其實我們有給它一些不只谷坑林內林內也非常嚴重而且他們已經不只是在侵害農產品他們已經侵害到人民的家中了你知道嗎所以其實我們是跟當地那個里長村長去做"},{"start":610.267,"end":624.759,"text":"聯絡請他們怎麼聯絡怎麼聯絡啊你要叫他們自己去處理啊怎麼處理委員好我們其實在過去這幾年都有補助骨坑相公所其實也包含雲林縣政府啦就是組成區侯隊那去驅趕你補助他多少錢"},{"start":626.558,"end":634.763,"text":"呃 每一年應該都有上百萬吧上百萬 對啊 這個 這個我說加總起來加總起來有上百萬但是你覺得夠嗎呃 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那接下來我想要請教一下這個次長"},{"start":32.21,"end":60.469,"text":"中央其實我們尤其是運動部我們要花這個上千萬來做一些研究對於一些場域來做一些盤點但是到底地方有沒有跟上我們要推這個友善環境的一個同時如果地方沒有執行那麼研究跟成果這個反差這個實際的落差就會非常的大那我們來看一下這個都是運動部提供的一些資料從108年到113年我們連年都投入一些經費來做這樣子的盤點跟研究"},{"start":61.587,"end":89.449,"text":"但是我就用這個113年度台中的一個多功能的運動中心來說它的不合格率高達了半數以上那它的問題還是一大堆那到底我們的這些錢是改善了什麼是不是變成寫報告的一個工具行政費還是中央花了這麼多的一個規範但為什麼地方會跟不上到底是制度不夠還是地方是完全沒有執行的一個誘因"},{"start":90.39,"end":116.133,"text":"那中央要怎麼樣來督促地方真正的落實而不是紙上談兵做一些這樣子的一個表格或者是做一些這樣子的一個研究出來報告沒有任何的後續那後續我們還是會核定來做補助那怎麼樣來確保這個新的場館跟繼續優化的工程當中不會排除掉我們所說的特殊族群不要把他們給排除掉這個部分是不是請市長可以回答"},{"start":116.673,"end":136.552,"text":"可以的这件事情是这样子我们昨天在内部刚刚好有一个内控的机制的讨论其实这个东西在我们内部既然我是性平的召集人我们会把这个个别的议题在不同的业务当中去做盘点这一件事情一定会被我们列入未来考量"},{"start":136.932,"end":151.648,"text":"而且是檢討的一個內容我會督促我們的業務單位在考核地方政府當中要把清楚的指標列出來不是單純是告訴人家說你哪裡有哪裡沒有就算了我是希望能夠看到確實的改善的機制"},{"start":152.188,"end":181.883,"text":"我想我们中央在做计划我们是要从做计划改成我们要来做集合来做一些支持的后续的支援我想这个地方才会动起来给我们运动部一些建议我觉得补助场馆的一个前提其实除了建立审查的一个制度以外我们先把最低的标准什么叫做最低的标准我们先让无障碍设施先达标我觉得这是最基本的一个门槛把无障碍的设施"},{"start":182.323,"end":201.625,"text":"作为最低的一个门槛一跨过之后我们其他才有后续码不然其实讲再多报告或者是再多的数据其实你看这个比例上能够用的五分是满分问题是我们看到这张图表上面不管是观众席也好辅助的一些协助的措施也好或者是设施也好全部都在一"},{"start":202.826,"end":223.609,"text":"這個是完全不達標的好 那最快什麼時候可以給我一些進行的報告最快你指的是這個評鑑的報告 指標嗎指標指標 給我一些方向吧可以嗎 好 我們儘快好不好因為今天時間有限"},{"start":225.302,"end":253.332,"text":"可以儘快嗎 我們三個月可以嗎好 OK好 那接下來其實我們要來討論一下這個女性運動的一個政策不能只喊平權啦不是嘴巴上講講其實真的要做到真正的一個公平喔那國際女性的運動政策其實都在強調喔這個女性運動要做到公平安心平等的參與但是台灣真正在落實的還有我們的資源分配到底有沒有到位喔我想女性呢最需要的就是友善的償管"},{"start":254.272,"end":281.279,"text":"專屬的一個課程專業的一個師資但是這明顯長期以來我認為是不夠的我們在想是不是我們的運動部如果將來我們要投入資源請把資源投對地方不要投錯地方比方說女性的資源其實不公平其實不只是在硬體那麼包含所謂的薪資訓練的資源教練跟行政女性上的一個比例的資格"},{"start":282.239,"end":298.136,"text":"其實都在結構上顯現出來它是不夠平等的那我們運動部要怎麼樣從制度面來做改革這個部分等一下請市長跟我說一下那另外就是在不同的女性的需求其實他們的差異也很大我想女性"},{"start":298.536,"end":315.229,"text":"有育嬰需求的像是媽媽或者是上班族她其實是很辛苦的再來引髮族的女性她是完全不同的需求但我們有沒有應對的一個配套而不是全部捅包一把抓我想這個部分我們"},{"start":316.05,"end":331.829,"text":"請市長來回應一下如果這三大需求比方說在育兒職場跟銀髮的部分還有在親子的課程或者是有沒有在場館加設一些比較友善的臨時的托育或者是在職場上的運動的一些支持我們有沒有這樣的一個計畫跟規劃"},{"start":332.79,"end":359.482,"text":"我们的确是会针对这个地方的落差因为我们也看到这个落差真的很大那我们会编列专案的方式来持续陆续的改善特别是刚刚讲比如说育儿这一件事情那么还是得跟运动场域的地方做讨论我们会编列这样子的工作指标希望他们去设所以我们的部里会有所谓的分族群的一些政策的规划是吗我们连研究上面都会针对这些族群去做特定的需求"},{"start":360.282,"end":378.819,"text":"了解了他們的真正的需求之後才有辦法對症下來那我想除了規劃以外我們的資源真的要落實我覺得大家其實都在反映的是這件事情這也是我們成立運動部的一個最重要的宗旨那我們希望這個運動平權的事情是長期在做而且是落實的在做那第三個"},{"start":379.119,"end":397.325,"text":"這個部分我想要請教的就是現在高齡的運動的資源多但是問題是我們的效果到底有沒有被看到要不要整合那我舉例來說這個60歲以上其實是最愛運動的族群這個其實也是來自於我們的運動部我們在113年所做的運動現況的一個調查"},{"start":399.246,"end":419.148,"text":"我們看到這個年齡層有沒有發現最愛運動的其實是60歲以上喔但是問題是60歲以上的這些族群他也是醫療負擔最高的一群人喔那我想呢如果運動投入做得好我相信他是最省錢的公共投資次長同不同意我的說法完全同意所以是我的信仰"},{"start":419.468,"end":440.995,"text":"是好那另外呢我們點出了這個三大的核心的問題啦我看到的是高齡者他可能會有所謂的慢性病他有跌倒的一個風險他甚至會有所謂的其他在場域上有不友善這樣子一個關注的一個議題喔所以光是光是在教導或者是在陪伴的這些所謂的體適能的證照的老師"},{"start":441.895,"end":463.233,"text":"其實他是不一定夠的喔我們有沒有針對所謂的高齡的專業的一個課程另外我們有沒有辦法去追蹤擁有所謂的中高級證照的這些指導員到底誰是真正有在服務65歲以上的這些高齡喜歡運動的人再來有證照不是等於有在教阿是"},{"start":463.713,"end":485.146,"text":"我們有沒有去盤點有沒有去追蹤他實際的服務量包含他的時數服務的時數服務的人次那這個部分我們要怎麼樣把真正的資源用在所謂的這些長者身上另外體育運動運動部長照其實也在做醫療也在做我們會不會各做各的都沒有整合"},{"start":487.327,"end":504.056,"text":"我們會跟衛福部一起合作這件事情我們事實上已經跟國健署有了接觸下個禮拜一我就會去拜訪他們去把這個全民健康尤其是老人的這件事情我們會納入重點來推動好 我給我們運動部三個方向第一 我們去建立所謂的運動處方"},{"start":505.817,"end":523.633,"text":"建立運動處方跟轉介的一個制度然後三方剛剛講的我們可以跨部會來互通我覺得這個橫向的溝通其實也很重要然後再來我們要增加所謂的高齡或者是慢性病的運動專業指導員的認證這個目前其實我們應該也可以往這個方向去前進對不對"},{"start":524.474,"end":541.577,"text":"我們可以用增能的方式因為目前我們的終極國民體制能指導員已經超過一千個人它涵蓋了指導高齡者但是顯然不夠我們會增能的方式來辦理雖然你說已經有接近一千人對不對但問題是我剛剛講的要不要公開長期的追蹤包含轉介數"},{"start":542.558,"end":568.824,"text":"或者是包含我们的高龄的产育的改善的比例等等这些数据还有拿的中高级的这个专业的证照的人到底有谁他服务的人次然后还有他的服务的时数这个我们要长期追踪可以吗我们来努力因为他们在个别外面职业我们没有办法直接接触他们职业的内容所以我们就只能就我们跟我们有联系的人我们去做这些追踪是可以的"},{"start":569.364,"end":595.424,"text":"跟你们有联系的但我们要主动联系太多了我们要主动联系来做盘点虽然我知道运动部成立初期我们真的很辛苦你们辖下的很多的部门其实还有很多的人员没有到位这个我们都清楚但是我们往这个方向慢慢的推进因为全民运动全民健康其实是最重要的一件事情市长加油好吗谢谢谢谢主席"}]}},{"id":"166105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d606c76c6e69fddb094cd0246cdf0bd28b7be3e8fe055fbc1319d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:33:48 - 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T10:33:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T10:43:09+08:00","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.27096875,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.98784375,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.31409375,"end":29.680343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.84909375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":151.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.49159375000002,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.76971875,"end":133.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.15971875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.86784375000002,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.67784375000002,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.31409375,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.92909375000002,"end":167.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":167.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.49846875,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.58284375000002,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.19034375,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.20721875,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.54034375,"end":169.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.60784375,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.70909375000002,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.96221875,"end":214.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.73159375,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.80221875,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.53971875000002,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.90784375000004,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.20346875,"end":302.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.79659375,"end":323.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.33909375,"end":346.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.40284375000005,"end":350.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.63846875,"end":352.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.30909375000005,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.89096875,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.17784375,"end":383.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.62909375000004,"end":385.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.82721875000004,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.24034375,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.02846875,"end":397.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.69034375,"end":406.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.49909375000004,"end":409.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.75596875,"end":430.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.90034375000005,"end":441.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.19409375000004,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.59846875000005,"end":449.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.49659375000005,"end":476.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.78659375,"end":457.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.84534375000004,"end":459.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.63409375000003,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.71596875000006,"end":477.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.54284375000003,"end":497.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.43409375000005,"end":499.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.59846875000005,"end":503.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.2390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楊瓊英委員邀請次長好 次長"},{"start":12.298,"end":32.667,"text":"委員好 市長您好針對於我們惡性傷害動物致死傷的這個事件屢見不宣引起了社會大眾的公憤所以因此我們現行的動保法在實務上有存在的兩個根本的缺陷"},{"start":33.527,"end":62.079,"text":"第一個對於虐待致傷害的這個判定標準過於嚴苛導致有很多它是明顯的虐待動物的行為但是卻沒有辦法有效的來懲處那尤其是致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或者是重要器官功能喪失的這個判斷讓基層單位的動保單位它在執行的時候它是沒有辦法難以去定案"},{"start":62.879,"end":81.421,"text":"那第二個缺陷也就是情節重大致死的案件我們的條文是說必須要有複數的動物那死亡為前提這顯然是單一動物的重大虐殺的這個案件他沒有辦法依法"},{"start":82.362,"end":104.23,"text":"來做懲處那背離了整個我們要怎麼樣去維護動物權益的一個核心價值所以本席特別提出也就是在法律修正案裡頭那麼我們提出了第25條跟25條之一為了來解決現行在執行的困境以及強化法律阻礙力"},{"start":105.31,"end":131.919,"text":"跟提升了動物的權益保障來降低整個在虐待動物發生時那能夠真正的去落實在整個動物權益的一個維護那請教 請教市長本席的提案那您的看法是不是全力支持謝謝委員這樣確實可以達到動物保護的方向第一個是在判定上能夠更清楚因為其實虐待其實有多面向不見得到致死其實對懂不懂是只能傷害"},{"start":132.819,"end":149.713,"text":"所以在判定的標準要能夠更明確讓現場執行能夠真的達到保護動物的效果所以謝謝委員提出來這我們一定支持第二個謝謝你複數動物這件事我也贊成委員的想法其實這就很嚴重了要等到兩家三家來處理就已經很嚴重了你還要一定要等到兩次這個"},{"start":151.134,"end":167.145,"text":"這個立法實在是莫名其妙的太離譜了我們是要以他的行動行為來判定而不是以他的數字嘛所以設了一個複數本金覺得沒有辦法接受的所以我們同意這樣修改的方向同意修法第25條跟25條之一一個傷害也是傷害"},{"start":171.328,"end":176.509,"text":"就這一句話傷害就是傷害而不是因為要有兩隻以上才算傷害這個是普世價值是沒有辦法接受的好 謝謝針對本席所提案25條之一以及25條之一那麼行政部門全力來支持到時候我們在實施討論條文的時候那我們達成了這個共識接下來本席要請教最近因為11月份的報導有說新竹苗栗等這一些"},{"start":200.416,"end":215.913,"text":"那這個越南移工集體化組織化非法來宰殺並販賣狗肉還有保育動物類的這個肉品重大的犯罪從家犬多多被被肢體解體的這個冷凍販賣一直到查獲了43公斤違法肉品"},{"start":222.02,"end":241.057,"text":"甚至还有自制猎枪来猎杀保育类的死虎哇这个真的是离谱至极啊所以据查呢这个自制的猎枪的外籍嫌犯行为更嚣张他不只将这个大量的犯罪的证据"},{"start":241.838,"end":255.182,"text":"跟槍支照片發布在臉書網路上面甚至在警察上門的時候他還拿這個獵槍來瞄準了恐嚇這個警察這一類的行為他不只是超過單純的虐殺個案"},{"start":258.263,"end":273.893,"text":"太涉及到違法槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例組織犯罪非法弱品的供應鏈以及公共衛生安全的一個風險那面對這樣子的一個惡性重大那集體"},{"start":275.114,"end":287.857,"text":"跨區運作的殺戮行為我們的動保法它的赫子作用好像是形同虛設啊那所以本席給你一個數字2014年到2021年的獵殺案件當中它高達了96%的案件它的刑期不到6個月然後一顆罰金你等於是讓非法者"},{"start":300.29,"end":322.146,"text":"非法者當成是他犯罪得利的一個溫床所以我們的法律的過度的寬鬆那這些會讓人家有一個機會是不是來台灣掏金本行不希望台灣是如此的一個面向在呈現所以這些的犯罪集團針對"},{"start":323.647,"end":349.734,"text":"動物他沒有辦法自我保護的能力他來下手那不僅侵害了我們國民的一個財產權跟這個情感那更挑戰了我們整個國土安全以及動保的一個底線所以本行認為您農業部作為動保最高的主管機關單位你絕對不能讓這樣子的單純的動物案件讓他們去達成可以去做整個結合"},{"start":351.704,"end":380.976,"text":"那這個要該怎麼辦所以本席具體建議你必須針對於外籍勞工的管理社會治安動物防疫以及野生動物保育的重大本席號稱這是一個國安議題所以請教市長針對剛剛本席所說的這一些面向不管是集體來宰殺犬貓保育類動物的挑釁那這一項你要如何的"},{"start":381.636,"end":409.307,"text":"去與警政署 移民署 化部會的來及時通報及時查緝來徹底的瓦解這些非法的一個弱品工藝鏈 請做說明謝謝委員支持這個要更強力有效來做動物保護所以第一個 我們這次修法把刑責提高六個月以上 不能夠一顆罰金這是非常嚴重 這是第一點第二點 在源頭的部分 當然除了去查緝之外"},{"start":409.847,"end":430.339,"text":"我們現在進來的移工其實都有做一些行前的教育訓練就是告訴他們說比方說不能攜帶這個動植物產品不能怎樣我們會把動物保護這個也放在裡面對於移民的這一塊要跟他們講說進來要守法這件事情要講那第三個在司法的部分我想我們有跟司法檢調人員其實有一個聯繫平台我們也會在那個平台上面"},{"start":431.059,"end":448.39,"text":"希望把這件事情動物保護這件事情違反動物保護這件事情是非常重要的事情也請法官檢察官就在量刑的部分多餘考量要能夠確實達到所以換句話說就在是整個加重刑責這個部分必須要徹底的從源頭從棄養從提升整個收容處"},{"start":453.473,"end":476.041,"text":"以及查緝人員的一個權益跟安全來做整面性的一個真正的動保的一個推動跟落實那最後一個議題本席給你也就是我們農業部從106年推動的智慧農業那你結合了整個經濟部合作農工的一個研發目的叫打造"},{"start":476.781,"end":503.226,"text":"平價優質易維修的這個國產智慧型的農業設備但是我們因應到整個氣候的變遷跟勞動力的一個一個一個短缺喔那所以在近10年來我們看到這個部分政府推動一個政策它的落實只有25%為什麼為什麼有政策落實不了所以本席要"},{"start":504.526,"end":515.897,"text":"請教也就是智慧農業設備的一個普及那你目前只有推動到25%這樣低迷的現象你滿意嗎"},{"start":517.961,"end":542.093,"text":"可以再來加強啦 因為其實所有的科研所有的成果 所有智慧化的運用要能夠農民負擔得起要怎麼負擔得起 就是說其實我們現場因為其實台灣農地不大哇 次長你這樣子說那這個很離譜欸你說要農民負擔得起 剛剛答覆其他委員說你抓猴子 你農民 你那個民眾也可以自己抓你全部都推給"},{"start":542.913,"end":557.99,"text":"不是政府的責任耶現在本集具體建議你針對這一個只有達成25%也就是設備的這個部分那你必須要去精進你的方案怎麼樣能夠落實請你把書面資料給本席好 我們謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"17088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17088","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68566a919a0b9b1b1fbe5565ea6e1c7193cb4456b5c46cbb78c6ff3520dc0d09b1e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)民進黨黨團擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員林月琴等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(五)委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員許宇甄等23人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(八)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(九)委員林楚茵等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十)委員劉建國等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十一)委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十二)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十三)委員李坤城等21人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十四)委員王正旭等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十五)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十六)委員羅智強等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十七)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等25人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案」案。\n(十九)委員黃捷等16人擬具「外送員權益保障暨外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二十)委員劉建國等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n【二、(十六)至(十八)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(十九)及(二十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-03T08:34:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T18:05:00+08:00","duration":34240,"影片長度":"09:30:40","委員發言時間":"08:34:20 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議事錄確定那本日會議議程為繼續審查外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等六案審查外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案等八案"},{"start":1696.024,"end":1724.628,"text":"外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等9案外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案1案外送平台管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案1案以及外送員權益保障暨外送平台管理法草案1案那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員林月晴委員"},{"start":1728.308,"end":1756.593,"text":"王振旭委員范雲委員在場官員有勞動部部長洪生翰職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂勞動關係司司長王厚偉勞動保險司司長陳美女勞動法務司司長傅惠芝"},{"start":1758.103,"end":1773.096,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理司司長胡迪奇公路局副局長周庭章數位發展部數位產業署副組長鍾嘉榮科長江紀元經濟部商業發展署副組長簡俊良"},{"start":1785.157,"end":1809.343,"text":"衛生福利部食品藥物管理署副組長蕭惠文金融監督管理委員會銀行局專門委員卓文林保險局組長陳蘭君個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長曾傑行政院消費者保護處處長鍾瑞蘭"},{"start":1812.901,"end":1825.042,"text":"法務部參事汪南君公平交易委員會主任秘書這是下午一點以後這個毛浩吉還有處長胡祖順"},{"start":1830.492,"end":1846.114,"text":"那本次在交付之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答現在請新增提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘第一位請林月琴委員說明"},{"start":1853.304,"end":1869.669,"text":"各位委員關心外送專法的夥伴 大家好在台灣外送服務已經成為民眾生活的一部分從業人員更超過14萬人放眼國際法律納管已經事實上成趨勢近年平台的爭議頻傳所以我認為台灣"},{"start":1872.19,"end":1897.058,"text":"外送專法的推動勢在必行那我的版本呢希望能夠具體回應這項新興經濟模式帶來挑戰期待透過專法建立一個公平安全透明且四方互惠的產業環境重點有三第一保障外送員跟合作商家的一個權益明定契約範本及透明化的一個報酬的結構針對爭議事件違規停權"},{"start":1901.239,"end":1916.036,"text":"終止契約或其他不利決定建立申訴救濟機制公開揭示與處理並禁止延伸之不利對待第二強化安全措施跟教育訓練民定職業安全食品安全"},{"start":1917.403,"end":1933.312,"text":"交通安全等無收費的教育訓練課程以及回訓制度跟時數並得免重複實施此外 針對外送員發生重大交通違規或造勢時業者應有通知與協助完成"},{"start":1933.872,"end":1951.262,"text":"道安講習之義務三兼顧職業安全保障跟彈性民定平台應付的適度的一個社會保險包括商業保險跟勞工職災保險的投保跟費用負擔的義務同時民定"},{"start":1952.352,"end":1967.235,"text":"明文要求平台不得對於聚單或離線休息者不利對待最後我很期待本法的通過為外送產業帶來更穩健更人性的發展懇請各位委員支持我的修正版本謝謝謝謝林月琴委員說明接下來請范雲委員說明"},{"start":1981.659,"end":2001.178,"text":"主席大家好因為我是教育文化委員會的委員所以待會我還有教文的質詢那我先來這邊針對我的提案做說明那第一個我想現在是9點鐘不知道為什麼未還委員只有我們民進黨的委員在場那除了主席之外其他那麼關心的委員主席知道他們到哪去了嗎"},{"start":2003.931,"end":2025.526,"text":"我們尊重每個委員 因為實質審查是下午每一條 等一下是先宣讀這樣子好 我了解了 所以他們希望下午他們都能夠一起出現那個我想講的是 2020年外送員還在籌組公會的時候我當時就跟勞工陣線還有外送員夥伴一起召開記者會爭取專法那我也透過質詢公聽會要求"},{"start":2028.188,"end":2043.837,"text":"當時的勞動部跟交通部重視外送員的職業安全跟工作風險那這幾年我爭取到薪資透明指引機車外送安全指引等來對抗演算法的減薪還有颱風天外送的問題"},{"start":2044.717,"end":2068.355,"text":"但是我們也看到光是指引是不夠的因為外送平臺在臺灣落地深耕超過10年人數從4.5萬人很快就到現在的15萬人新的勞動型態沒有辦法靠平臺自律過去我們以為外送員可以自己調度工作時間但是平臺會要求外送員有一定的接單率讓他們不敢拒絕接單"},{"start":2069.156,"end":2095.532,"text":"那或者是用獎勵變相就是次數的獎勵變相誘導他拉長工時導致他們面臨交通安全的風險等所以就如同我之前說的我們的專法必須要能夠像現在國際上很多的討論在他同時保有彈性的情況下也能夠擁有安全達到所謂的Flexibility就是有Flexibility跟Security"},{"start":2096.132,"end":2112.267,"text":"那例如瑞士是直接把外送員納入傳統的勞工保障德國則有中間勞動者的類型提供一定程度的保障那希望我們這次可以共創一個薪資透明勞動公平安全的外送員工作環境跟產業謝謝我想要說明我想要補充一下"},{"start":2121.792,"end":2150.612,"text":"我想外送員這個有關於外送平台及從業人員保障法已經等了非常的久但是本席不希望是一個很像是政治鬥爭政黨對立不分顏色我相信今天針對這個平台的這個平台的專案管理法還有從業人員的權益保障法我們不分藍綠白只有改革的顏色我們希望盡速的通過以上那接下來請王振旭委員說明"},{"start":2157.725,"end":2167.641,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位委員各位同仁大家早針對日益複雜的這個外送平台經濟提出了版本"},{"start":2168.622,"end":2187.826,"text":"這個版本的重點裡面聚焦在兩大面向第一就是要職業安全的強化第二就是演算法的透明化跟申訴機制的建立這些修正的出發點當然是希望在既有的基礎上面進一步完善對外送員勞動權利的保障"},{"start":2188.326,"end":2209.885,"text":"那第一點在強化職業安全的部分外送員長期處於高道路風險的環境我們必須要強化他的職業安全網第一個相關的就是要派單的安全基準根據現行的這個道路交通安全規則對機車負載物品也有重量跟體積的相關的規範"},{"start":2210.846,"end":2232.082,"text":"為了避免外送員因要派單超載而被迫違規且由立法明確要求外送平台業者於派單的時候即應明確的運送商品符合道路安全規則等相關法規第二個就是要保障他的離線權第三個就是針對天災停止營業的這些規定也都要非常的明確"},{"start":2233.042,"end":2252.831,"text":"第二有關演算法透明化跟深思的基礎方面我們知道數位平台時代外送員權益常受到不透明的演算法的影響我們必須要建立一定的揭露機制包括第一個演算法的揭示義務第二個終止契約的申訴小組的成立第三個演算法的舉證責任"},{"start":2254.252,"end":2266.532,"text":"我們相信以上這些機制的設計希望可以讓外送服務成為外送員的安心平台業者也得以管理而且能夠保障勞動公平的一個環境以上"},{"start":2269.823,"end":2282.796,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員說明那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在請議事人員宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2286.946,"end":2316.386,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人 台灣民眾黨黨團委員羅廷惟等20人 委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人 委員楊瓊英等19人提案外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案民進黨黨團提案外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員萬美玲等16人 委員黃建豪等17人提案外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案委員林月琴等18人提案外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員張家俊等16人"},{"start":2317.066,"end":2334.214,"text":"委員徐宇珍等23人提案外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案委員范雲等16人委員郭玉琴等16人委員林楚英等23人提案外送人權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員劉建國等17人提案外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案"},{"start":2334.734,"end":2359.788,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案 外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員林倩琦等21人提案 外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案委員李昆城等21人提案 外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案委員王振旭等23人提案 外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員徐巧欣等17人提案 委員羅志強等19人提案"},{"start":2360.228,"end":2383.334,"text":"委員盧憲義等16人提案 外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案委員廖偉祥等25人提案 外送平台管理及從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案委員黃潔等16人提案 外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案委員劉建國等16人提案 外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法草案條文對照表"},{"start":2385.208,"end":2401.879,"text":"委員洪孟楷等21人 台灣民眾黨黨團委員羅廷瑋等20人 委員汪玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人 委員楊瓊英等19人委員萬美玲等16人 委員黃建豪等17人委員張家俊等16人 委員徐宇珍等23人委員劉建國等17人 委員林倩琦等21人"},{"start":2402.479,"end":2425.916,"text":"委員徐曉欣等17人 委員羅志祥等19人 委員盧憲義等16人法案名稱《外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法》民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人 委員范雲等16人委員郭育晴等16人 委員林楚英等23人委員賴銳龍等18人 委員王振旭等23人委員劉建國等16人法案名稱《外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法》"},{"start":2426.876,"end":2444.887,"text":"委員李昆城等21人提案法案名稱 外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法委員賴偉翔等25人提案法案名稱 外送平台管理及從業人員及合作商家權益保障法委員黃潔等16人提案法案名稱 外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法"},{"start":2446.127,"end":2473.109,"text":"委員廖偉祥等25人提案委員劉建國等16人提案第一章總則委員洪孟凱等21人委員羅天威等20人委員楊瓊英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人提案第一條為加強外送平台業者的管理保障外送員權益特制定本法本法為規定者依其他法律規定台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建華等17人委員徐宇珍等23人"},{"start":2474.21,"end":2493.352,"text":"委員許巧欽等17人委員盧憲一等16人提案第一條為管理外送平台業者保障外送員權益特制定本法本法未規定者依其他有關法律之規定民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林儲英等23人委員王振旭等23人提案第一條"},{"start":2494.253,"end":2522.117,"text":"為保障外送員權益及管理外送平台業者特制定本法外送員權益保障及外送平台業者管理依本法之規定本法為規定者適用其他法律之規定但外送平台業者與外送員間寄予有僱傭關係者除適用第6條第5項第11條及第19條至第22條規定外其權益保障及處罰等事項依勞動基準法及其他相關法律規定處理委員萬美玲等16人提案第一條"},{"start":2522.977,"end":2545.962,"text":"為管理外送平台業者保障外送員及消費者之權益特制定本法本法為規定者依其他有關法律之規定委員林月琴等18人提案第一條第一項如下為保障外送員權益及管理外送平台業者促進國民消費生活安全提升貨品供應品質特制定本法第二項與民進黨黨團提案第一條第二項同"},{"start":2549.525,"end":2578.383,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第一條為保障外送員之工作權益並健全外送平台業者之管理與責任特制定本法外送員權益保障其外送平台業者管理依本法之規定本法為規定者適用其他相關法律為外送平台業者與外送員間具有雇佣關係者除第六條第五項第十一條及第十九條至第二十二條規定外其權益保障管理及處罰等事項依勞動基準法及其他相關法令辦理"},{"start":2579.845,"end":2591.975,"text":"委員賴銳龍等18人提案第一條第一項如下為維護及保障外送員勞動權以及管理外送平台業者特制定本法第二項與民進黨黨團提案第一條第二項同"},{"start":2593.823,"end":2617.474,"text":"委員林千祺等21人提案第一條第二句為保障外送人員權益與委員洪孟凱等21人提案同委員李坤誠等21人提案第一條第一項及第二項與民進黨黨團提案第一條同第三項如下外送平台具有演算法功能而對於外送員有控制指揮功能者推定兩者兼具雇佣關係"},{"start":2620.043,"end":2635.835,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第一條默劇違適用其他法律之規定與委員洪孟楷等21人提案同委員廖偉昌等25人提案第一條為規範外送平台業者與外送從業人員合作商家及消費者之權利義務"},{"start":2637.797,"end":2651.903,"text":"並保障外送員及合作商家之權益特制定本法外送員合作商家消費者之權益保障及外送平台業者之管理依本法之規定本法為規定者使用其他法律之規定外送平台業者與外送員兼另訂僱傭"},{"start":2653.584,"end":2676.261,"text":"契約者除適用第四條第五項第十條第十二條之第十四條及第二十二條之規定外其權益保障及處罰等事項以勞動基準法及其他相關法律規定辦理委員黃婕等十六人提案第一條第二項倒數第三據為第十一條及第二十條及第二十三條規定外與民進黨黨團提案第一條同"},{"start":2676.841,"end":2697.839,"text":"委員劉金國等16人提案第一條第一項如下為保障外送員權益管理外送平台業者維護消費者及合作商家權益特制定本法第二項倒數第三四具如下除適用第四條第五項第十條及第21條至第25條規定外與民進黨黨團提案第一條同"},{"start":2698.56,"end":2708.302,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員楊從英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案"},{"start":2710.106,"end":2733.869,"text":"以及台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃靖豪等17人委員徐宇珍等23人委員徐巧欣等17人委員盧憲義等16人提案第二條本法之主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府但本法鎖定事項涉及各中央目的事業主管機關職責者由各該目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":2736.621,"end":2752.184,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林楚瑩等23人委員王真旭等23人提案第二條本法制主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定時向涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者"},{"start":2753.466,"end":2776.347,"text":"由目的事業主管機關辦理前二項主管機關及各目的事業主管機關權則劃分如下一主管機關外送服務契約停權報酬申訴制度職業安全保險外送員相關紀錄保存外送員職業安全教育訓練等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃推動及監督二交通主管機關基本運"},{"start":2777.248,"end":2806.081,"text":"基本運價核定消費者保護個人資料保護道路交通安全消費者相關紀錄保存外送員交通安全教育訓練等有關外送平台管理及規劃推動及監督三 經濟主管機關外送合作契約外送平台業者收取費用及爭議處理合作商家相關紀錄保存等有關合作商家權益保障事項及規劃推動及監督四 衛生福利主管機關外送食品衛生安全外送員"},{"start":2806.721,"end":2833.355,"text":"食品衛生安全教育訓練等事項之規劃推動及監督五 金融主管機關外送平台之電子支付交易安全外送員投保商業保險商品等事項之核定及監督六 數位發展主管機關外送平台之第三方服務交易安全事項之監督七 其他外送員權益保障及外送平台管理事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理"},{"start":2834.776,"end":2849.667,"text":"委员万梅林等16人提案第二条本法是主管机关在中央为劳动部在直辖市为直辖市政府在县市为县市政府本法锁定事项涉及各中央目的事业主管机关执掌者由各该机关办理"},{"start":2850.188,"end":2870.229,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第二條前二項主管機關及各目的事業主管機關權則劃分如下一 主管機關外送服務契約停權報酬申訴及註記職業安全保險外送員相關紀錄保存外送員職業安全教育訓練等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃推動及監督"},{"start":2874.042,"end":2895.883,"text":"委員郭玉行等16人提案第二條第三項第一款 倒數第二三句如下記錄保存職業安全教育訓練等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃第七款 莫具違逗號 由相關目的事業主管機關一職權規劃辦理予與民進黨黨團提案第二條同"},{"start":2898.047,"end":2914.967,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第二條第二項如下本發所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者由目的事業主管機關辦理必要時得召開跨部會首長會議會同各目的事業主管機關辦理之予與民進黨黨團提案第二條同"},{"start":2918.485,"end":2938.203,"text":"委員李坤誠等21人提案第二條第三項第一款第二具為外送員職業安全教育訓練及演算法管理機制等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃推動及監督第七款如下其他外送員權益保障及外送平台管理事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃"},{"start":2940.224,"end":2965.199,"text":"由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理與民進黨黨團提案第二條同委員羅志強等19人提案第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所稱事項涉及各中央目的事業主管機關職責者由各該目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":2966.82,"end":2985.251,"text":"委員六位相等二十五人提案第二條本法之主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定是向涉及各目的事業主管機關全責者由該目的事業主管機關辦理請二項主管機關及各目的事業主管機關全責劃分如下"},{"start":2985.851,"end":3007.216,"text":"一 主管機關負責外送服務契約 停權報酬申訴制度 職業安全保險外送員相關紀錄保存外送員職業安全教育訓練等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃推動及監督二 交通主管機關負責道路交通安全外送員交通安全教育訓練等有關外送平台管理之規劃推動及監督"},{"start":3008.696,"end":3023.781,"text":"三、经济主管机关负责外送合作契约、外送平台业者收取合作商家费用及消费者应付单运费之标准与争议处理、合作商家相关记录保存等有关合作商家权益保障事项之规划、推动及监督。"},{"start":3024.461,"end":3041.881,"text":"四 衛生福利主管機關負責外送食品衛生安全外送員食品衛生安全教育訓練等事項之規劃推動及監督五 金融主管機關負責外送平台之電子支付交易安全外送員投保商業保險商品等事項之核定及監督"},{"start":3042.441,"end":3059.051,"text":"六 數位發展主管機關負責外送平台服務交易安全資訊安全個人資料保護消費者及外送員相關記錄保存等事項之監督及管理七 其他外送員權益保障及外送平台管理事項由相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理及監督"},{"start":3063.806,"end":3080.811,"text":"回原黃街等16人提案第二條第三項第一款文字如下外送員職業安全教育訓練後面之文字為頓好演算法管理等有關外送員勞動權益保障之規劃推動及監督予以民進黨黨團提案第二條同"},{"start":3081.792,"end":3095.53,"text":"委員 劉建國等16人提案第二條本發所稱主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本發所定時向涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌業務時由各該機關辦理前二項主管機關及各目的事業主管機關權責劃分如下"},{"start":3097.572,"end":3113.218,"text":"一 主管機關 主管外送服務契約停權報酬申訴制度職業安全衛生保險保存外送員相關紀錄外送員職業安全衛生教育訓練等有關外送員勞動權益保障之事項二 交通主管機關 主管基本運價核定"},{"start":3114.298,"end":3142.907,"text":"消費者保護個人資料保護道路交通安全保存消費者相關紀錄外送員交通安全教育訓練等有關外送平台管理之事項三 經濟主管機關主管外送合作契約外送平台業者收取費用及爭議處理保存合作商家相關紀錄等有關合作商家權益保障之事項四 衛生福利主管機關主管外送食品衛生安全外送員食品衛生安全教育訓練等事項五 金融主管機關"},{"start":3143.567,"end":3165.703,"text":"主管外送平台提供之金融支付工具交易安全外送員投保團體傷害保險及責任保險商品等事項六 數位發展主管機關主管外送平台提供之第三方支付服務交易安全事項七 其他外送員權益保障及外送平台管理事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理"},{"start":3168.044,"end":3194.325,"text":"委員紅木凱等21人提案委員楊崇英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一 外送平台只使用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易提供消費者購買食品商品或服務並提供外送援助消費者購買之食品商品或服務進行外送服務之平台二 外送平台業者只設置錢款平台而營業之廠商"},{"start":3195.305,"end":3200.568,"text":"3.外送員只與外送平台業者簽訂契約提供外送服務之人4."},{"start":3200.568,"end":3211.373,"text":"外送服務 指外送員使用外送平台業者指定程式或方式同意開始運送消費者購買之食品、商品或提供服務5."},{"start":3211.373,"end":3223.039,"text":"合作商家只與外送平台業者簽訂契約使用外送平台指定之應用程式或行動裝置與外送平台提供食品、商品或服務之食品業者或商業經營者"},{"start":3224.159,"end":3244.631,"text":"六 报酬 指外送员提供外送服务所得之对价七 运费 指消费者透过外送平台订购食品商品或服务除食品商品或服务之价格外另行支付之运费或服务费八 贷款 指合作商家提供食品商品或服务外送平台业者应给予之费用"},{"start":3245.091,"end":3272.275,"text":"九 外送服務契約 指外送平台業者與外送員間有關報酬計算方式 食品 商品或服務提供方式報酬給付時間及其他相關權利義務之約定十 外送合作契約 指外送平台業者與合作商家間有關食品 商品或服務貸款給付時間及其他相關權利義務之約定十一 外送服務期間 指外送員與外送平台業者"},{"start":3272.635,"end":3289.654,"text":"指定程式或裝置上限起至下限之期間十二 停權指對於外送員合作商家暫時停止上限接收訂單之處置十三 平台業者招攬行為指外送平台業者要求合作商家以推出折扣"},{"start":3290.134,"end":3316.793,"text":"付费行销广告扩大消费者可订餐范围或其他增加曝光率营收客源之业务招揽行为台湾民众党党团提案第三条本法用词定义如下依外送平台之使用电子商务技术进行网际网路交易媒合提供消费者购买商品且由外送员选择接受消费者订单并就消费者购买之商品进行送达服务之平台"},{"start":3317.393,"end":3338.02,"text":"二 外送平台業者只設置前款平台而營業之廠商三 外送員只透過外送平台接受消費者訂單前往指定之標的廠商領取商品並送達指定地點完成交付之外送服務從業人員四 外送服務契約只外送員提供外送服務外送平台業者"},{"start":3338.68,"end":3357.611,"text":"給付報酬以及就雙方權利義務有關之約定五 接單費至外送員因履行外送服務契約而獲得之報酬包括按即時 即日 即月 即借以現金或食物等方式給付之獎金 津貼及其他任何名義之給予均屬之"},{"start":3358.231,"end":3377.197,"text":"六 停存處分 外送平台業者停止指派外送員提供外送服務或其他之不利處分七 外送服務期間 指外送員於外送平台應用程式上限起至下限之時止之期間委員羅天威等二十人提案第三條第十一款如下"},{"start":3378.843,"end":3389.989,"text":"十一 外送服務期間 指外送員與外送平台業者指定程式或裝置上限起至下限之時止之期間 予以委員侯孟凱等21人提案第三條頭"},{"start":3392.148,"end":3416.765,"text":"委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐曉欣等17人委員盧憲一等16人委員徐宇珍等23人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一 外送平台即使用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易提供消費者購買商品並提供外送員選擇是否做消費者購買之商品進行外送服務之平台"},{"start":3417.325,"end":3429.919,"text":"三 外送員 指透過外送平台應用程式前往消費者指定之廠商領取商品再外送至消費者指定地點並交與消費者而從事外送服務之人員與台灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":3433.883,"end":3459.615,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等十六人委員郭月琴等十六人委員林楚瑩等十三人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一 外送員之與外送平台業者成立外送服務契約之從業人員二 外送平台業者之經營使用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易之平台提供消費者購買商品並將訂單發布與外送員選擇承接及進行外送服務之業者"},{"start":3460.155,"end":3484.952,"text":"三 合作商家 至与外送平台业者成立外送合作契约使用外送平台指定之应用程式或装置提供商品与消费者购买之业者四 外送合作契约 至外送平台业者与合作商家间有关商品提供货款给付及其他相关权利业务之契约五 预费 至平台货运业者向消费者及合作商家收取之运送商品费用"},{"start":3485.552,"end":3511.602,"text":"六 貸款 指合作商家透過外送平台業者提供商品與消費者外送平台業者應給予合作商家之款項七 外送服務契約 指外送平台業者與外送員間有關外送服務提供報酬計算及給付停權規範 申訴制度及其他相關權利義務事項之契約八 停權 指外送平台業者暫時停止發派訂單與外送員提供外送服務等處置"},{"start":3512.322,"end":3540.707,"text":"外送平台业者暂时停止合作商家接收消费者的订单处置9.报酬指外送员依外送服务契约提供外送服务期间所获得之劳务对价包括基本报酬各项奖金等10.外送服务指外送员使用外送平台业者指定之应用程式接受由外送平台业者发派之订单前往合作商家领取商品并交付消费者或运送至指定地点11.外送服务期间"},{"start":3541.187,"end":3563.389,"text":"至自外送員接受外送平台業者發派之每筆訂單時期至完成該訂單時止之期間十二 外送員上線期間至外送員與外送平台業者指定應用程式或裝置上線時期至下線時止之期間委員 萬美玲等16人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一 外送平台"},{"start":3564.17,"end":3587.662,"text":"只使用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易並提供外送員選擇就消費者購買之商品進行外送服務之平台二 外送平台業者只設置前款平台而營業之廠商三 外送員只透過外送平台應用程式接受消費者訂單前往指定之廠商領取商品再送至消費者指定地點交付指定對象之外送服務從業人員"},{"start":3588.903,"end":3615.304,"text":"四 外送服務契約 指外送員提供外送服務外送平台業者給付報酬計算方式以及雙方權利義務有關之約定五 外送服務期間 指外送員與外送應用坪上限接受消費者訂單 啟致將商品交付至另對象之服務期間委員 林月琴的十八人提案第三條第三款第二據為使用外送平台指定之應用程式或行動裝置"},{"start":3617.441,"end":3634.313,"text":"第五款如下 五 運費 指外送平台業者向消費者及合作商家收取之運送商品給用第十款如下 前往合作商家領取商品並交付消費者或運送至指定地點與與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":3639.335,"end":3658.047,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第三條第13款如下13 自動化管理指外送平台運用演算法或人工智慧系統進行派單停價或停權等決策管理之行為予以民進黨黨團提案同委員林建琦等21人提案第三條"},{"start":3659.068,"end":3682.654,"text":"除文字外送員為外送人員外與委員洪孟凱等21人提案同委員李昆城等21人提案第三條第13款如下13 演算法指以電子方式透過機器學習數據驅動技術而形成可以用於自動監控監督或評估工作者表現及用於作出對工作或服務條件產生重大影響之自動決策技術系統14"},{"start":3684.474,"end":3699.387,"text":"演算法管理 至外送平台利用演算法取代傳統人力管理至自動化效率管理及決策模式予以民進黨黨團提案同委員王振旭等23人提案第3條第13款如下13 演算法管理"},{"start":3699.747,"end":3722.269,"text":"指全部或部分以自動化方式用於分派或組織工作監督或評估外送員之工作表現或蒐集分析與外送員相關之個人資料並對外送員之工作條件報酬任務分配或契約持續產生實質影響之系統與民進黨黨團提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下"},{"start":3723.03,"end":3737.903,"text":"一 外送平台支持用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易媒合提供消費者購買食品或商品且由外送員選擇接受消費者訂單並就消費者購買之食品或商品進行送達服務之平台二 外送平台業者"},{"start":3738.644,"end":3762.676,"text":"至設置遣款平台而營業之廠商三 外送員至透過外送平台媒合前往消費者指定之標的廠商領取食品或商品並送達指定地點完成交付之外送服務從業人員四 合作商家至與外送平台業者簽訂契約使用外送平台指定之應用程式或行動裝置與外送平台提供食品或商品之食品業者或商業經營者"},{"start":3765.754,"end":3794.423,"text":"五 外送服務契約 指外送員提供外送服務外送平台業者給付報酬以及就雙方權利義務有關之約定六 外送合作契約 指外送平台業者與合作商家間有關食品商品或服務貸款給付時間及其他相關權利義務之約定七 報酬 指外送員因履行外送服務契約而獲得之對價包括按時按計時計日計月計件以現金或食物等方式給付之獎金津貼"},{"start":3795.163,"end":3811.845,"text":"及其他任何名義之給予均屬之八 運費 指消費者透過外送平台訂購食品或商品除食品或商品價格外另行支付之運費或服務費九 貸款 指合作商家提供食品或商品外送平台業者"},{"start":3812.466,"end":3840.126,"text":"因給予之費用十 停權外送平台業者停止指派外送員提供外送服務或其他之不利處分十一 外送服務期間指外送員與外送平台業者指定程式或裝置上限至下限之期間委員廖偉祥等署人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下第一款及第二款與民進黨黨團提案的第二款及第一款同三 合作商家"},{"start":3841.327,"end":3863.413,"text":"子與外送平台業者成立外送合作契約使用外送平台業者指定之網站應用程式或裝置提供商品或服務於消費者及業者四 外送合作契約至外送平台業者與合作商家間有關商品提供貸款給付申訴資助及其他相關權利義務之契約五 預費至平台業者向消費者"},{"start":3863.713,"end":3885.73,"text":"及合作商家收取之运送商品费用第六款及第七款与民进党党团提案第六款及第七款同八 外送消费契约至消费者外送平台与外送平台消费下单并委托外送平台业者提供外送服务之契约第九款与民进党党团提案第八款同"},{"start":3888.118,"end":3907.756,"text":"十 報酬是外送員依外送服務契約提供外送服務期間所獲得之勞務兌價包括按即時即日即月即屆以現金或實物等方式給付之獎金津貼及其他任何名義之給予均屬之第十一款與民進黨黨團第十款同十二 外送服務期間"},{"start":3908.857,"end":3918.215,"text":"指自外送員接受外送平台業者發布之每筆訂單時期至完成該訂單服務要求為止之期間第13款與民進黨黨團第12款提案同"},{"start":3921.431,"end":3942.957,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案第3條第13款如下13 演算法外送平台以程式或人工智慧對平台使用者數據進行監測控制評估及決策之自動化模式與民進黨黨團提案同委員劉建國等16人提案第3條本法用此定義如下依外送員之與外送平台業者成立外送服務契約之從業人員"},{"start":3943.897,"end":3967.495,"text":"二 外送平台業者 指經營使用電子商務技術進行網際網路交易之平台提供合作商家販賣商品或消費者購買商品並將訂單提供外送員重接之業者三 外送服務契約 指外送平台業者與外送員間就有關外送服務提供報酬計算及起付停權規範申訴制度及其他相關權利義務事項所成立之契約"},{"start":3968.455,"end":3987.751,"text":"四 報酬 指外送員依外送服務契約提供外送服務所獲得之勞務兌價包括基本報酬各項獎金等五 停權 指外送平台業者對外送員暫時停止提供訂單外送平台業者對合作商家暫時停止接收消費者訂單之行為六 外送服務"},{"start":3988.331,"end":4003.43,"text":"此外送員透過外送平台業者指定之應用程式或裝置接受其所提供之訂單前往合作商家領取商品並將之交付消費者或運送至消費者指定地點之行為七 外送服務期間"},{"start":4004.091,"end":4021.796,"text":"至接受外送平台業者提供之每筆訂單時起至完成該筆訂單時止之期間八 上限期間至外送員與外送平台業者指定之應用程式或裝置上限時起至下限時止之期間九 合作商家"},{"start":4022.256,"end":4048.257,"text":"至於外送平台業者成立外送合作契約是用外送平台業者指定之應用程式或裝置提供商品與消費者購買之業者十 外送合作契約是外送平台業者與合作商家間就有關商品提供貸款及付及其他相關權利一無事項所成立之契約十一 運費是平台或運業者提供運送商品服務向消費者及合作商家所收取之費用"},{"start":4048.897,"end":4056.691,"text":"十二 貸款 指合作商家透過外送平台業者提供商品與消費者後外送平台業者應給付合作商家之款項"},{"start":4058.772,"end":4086.387,"text":"委員紅毛改等21人委員楊崇英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第4條中央主管機關應定其邀請外送平台業者消費者保護官消費者保護團體學者專家合作商家或餐飲業者及有關工會就本法有關執法規則執行情形檢討協調及改進之委員羅廷威等20人提案第4條第二句為合作商家或餐飲業者及相關工會就本法執法規則執行情形檢討"},{"start":4087.387,"end":4104.721,"text":"予以委員洪孟凱等21人提案同委員萬梅琳德16人提案第4條 中央主管金關應定席邀集外送平台業者、全國性消費者保護團體代表、學者專家、合作商家或餐飲業者及有關工會做本法相關之法規及執行情形檢討協調改進之"},{"start":4107.785,"end":4130.991,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第二章 外送員權益保障委員洪孟凱等21人 委員羅林偉等20人 委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人 委員楊崇英等19人提案第五條中央主管機關應會同中央目的事業主管機關對於外送平台業者與外送員合作商家消費者兼重要權利義務事項擬定契約範本報請行政院核定後公告之"},{"start":4131.571,"end":4158.133,"text":"委員何孟凱等21人委員羅廷偉等20人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人提案第11條外送平台業者應與外送合作契約外送服務契約成立後7日內提供書面或電子紀錄與合作商家外送員收值契約非經合作商家或外送員同意不得變更未於契約內約定且涉及合作商家或外送員權利義務之事項外送平台業者以網際網路公報郵件書面或其他方法的表示者"},{"start":4158.953,"end":4181.226,"text":"為契約內容之變更 委員紅木改等21人 委員羅廷偉等20人 委員張家俊等16人 委員劉建國等17人 委員林倩琦等21人提案第13條 外送服務契約應記載下列事項一 報酬之金額計算方式及付時間二 停權 為規矩終止契約事由三 外送服務應具備之設備 程式或工具"},{"start":4182.026,"end":4207.424,"text":"四 外送服務基本流程五 應不可規則於外送員之適由至無法完成外送服務之處理機制六 前條第一項第三款臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉米等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃俊豪等17人委員徐曉欣等17人提案第四條外送平台業者與外送員成立外送服務契約後應於7日內提供契約之書面或電子記錄與外送員收集"},{"start":4208.084,"end":4227.37,"text":"接單費之標準計算方法及發放日期由外送平台同業工會及相關之工會共同擬定報請主管機關核定費金核准不得調整前項接單費應至少包括基本費、里程費、等待費、樓層費等費用其中基本費不得低於基本工資之三分之一"},{"start":4228.73,"end":4253.255,"text":"為保障外送員權益中央主管機關應會同目的事業主管機關就接單費以外之排班請假獎懲終止契約及其他重要權利義務擬定外送服務契約範本報請行政院核定後公告之委員楊崇英等19人提案第12條與委員侯孟凱等21人提案第11條同委員楊崇英等19人提案第14條與委員侯孟凱等21人提案第13條同"},{"start":4256.682,"end":4270.389,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員林楚瑩等23人委員王振旭等23人委員黃婕等16人提案第6條中央主管機關對於外送平台業者及外送員成立外送服務契約最重要權利義務事項應理定"},{"start":4271.658,"end":4288.685,"text":"定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項並公告之前項定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項應包括停權終止外送服務契約報酬申訴制度商業保險外送服務基本流程及提供專人服務聯絡方式及其他有關外送員勞動權益之事項"},{"start":4290.706,"end":4309.541,"text":"外送平台業者與外送員成立外送服務契約違反第一項公告之定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項則無效該公告之應記載事項須為記載與契約人構成契約之內容外送平台業者變更或增補外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項應經外送員同意"},{"start":4310.041,"end":4322.686,"text":"未经外送员同意及已忘记网络公告邮件书面或其他方式对外发布或通知者不申效力外送平台业者应于外送服务契约成立后7日内提供书面或电子契约与外送员收值"},{"start":4324.951,"end":4350.311,"text":"委員 萬美林等16人提案第5條中央主管機關應會同中央目的事業主管機關對於外送平台業者與外送員合作商交消費者間重要權利義務事項訂定契約範本及其應記載及不得記載事項報請行政院核定後公告之中央主管機關應會同中央目的事業主管機關對於外送員資格外送服務期間有關食品安全交通安全之設備或工具訂定外送安全衛生服務標準"},{"start":4351.272,"end":4379.575,"text":"委員萬美玲德16人提案第6條第一項及第二項如下外送平台業者應與外送服務契約成日7日內提供書面或電子紀錄與合作商家與外送員收值借單費之標準計算方法及發放日期由外送平台業同業工會及相關工會共同擬定報請主管機關核定費金核准不得調整第三項與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4條第三項同"},{"start":4381.658,"end":4411.378,"text":"委員徐玉珍等23人提案第4條第4項莫具違報請中央主管機關核定後公告之與台灣民用黨黨團提案同委員范雲等16人提案第6條第4項如下外送平台業者便跟第一項鎖定契約內容及外送員權益務事項應取得公會同意後使得公告之與民進黨黨團提案同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第6條第一項如下中央主管機關應依外送服務實務需要"},{"start":4412.299,"end":4436.44,"text":"拟定外送平台业者及外送员成立外送服务契约应记载及不得记载事项并公告之第二项第三四句如下契约终止报仇给付予以民进党党团提案同违约奈瑞龙等18人提案第六条第二项第二句文字应包括后面诸文字为适用自动化管理之范围顿号"},{"start":4439.406,"end":4458.84,"text":"外送平台業者變更或增補外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項應清楚說明變更之內容並經外送員同意予以民進黨黨團提案同委員您這期的二十一人提案第五條第十一條除文字外送員為外送人員外予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案同"},{"start":4459.54,"end":4474.619,"text":"委員李坤澄等21人提案第6條第6項如下外送平台業者使用演算法管理者需以下列規定為之一 以清晰易懂之文字向其外送員揭露其演算法相關如下之主要參數"},{"start":4477.342,"end":4496.072,"text":"規則與指令邏輯一 任務分配與調度系統影響訂單指派優先順序之因素及其相對權重二 薪酬計算系統決定每筆訂單報酬之完整計算公式包含動態定價之出發條件與加成倍率"},{"start":4496.852,"end":4526.695,"text":"三 绩效评估系统所有评估外送员之指标其计算方式及该指标如何影响外送员之评级奖励资格与接单机会二 签款演算法之揭露义务规范细则及程序由中央组织机关定之三 外送平台业者应成立专责单位或人力协助外送员了解及知悉本项所定之演算法揭露内容必要时并应以电子讯息或书面方式"},{"start":4526.815,"end":4555.417,"text":"等得以長久留存或驗證方式為之與民進黨黨團提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第4條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第5條同委員羅志強等19人提案第6條第一項如下外送平台業者應與外送服務契約外送合作契約成立後7日內提供契約之書面或電子記錄與外送員合作商家收值第二項莫具如下"},{"start":4557.305,"end":4580.185,"text":"視為契約內容之變更 於委員洪孟凱等21人提案第11條第三項同第三項與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第11條第二項同委員羅志強等19人提案第7條續文及第12457款與委員洪孟凱等21人提案續文及第一至第五款同第三及第六款如下"},{"start":4581.386,"end":4604.694,"text":"三 申訴制度六 外送平台客服聯絡方式應至少記載電話電子郵件委員盧先一等16人提案第四條第一項及第二項前段與委員王玉敏等16人提案第一項及第二項同第二項後段如下應於7日內提供契約之書面或電子記錄與外送元收值"},{"start":4606.914,"end":4625.851,"text":"中央主管機關核定階段費率前因審酌相關法規地理區域地區偏遠程度外送距離入礦難易度及相關營運成本核定差別化之外送服務基本運價第三項與委員王玉敏等16人提案第三項同第四項莫具為"},{"start":4627.977,"end":4646.872,"text":"報請中央主管機關核定後公告之與委員王玉敏等16人提案第4項同委員廖衛祥等25人提案第4條中央主管機關應就外送平台業者與外送員間成立之外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項訂定定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項並予公告"},{"start":4647.953,"end":4652.735,"text":"前項定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項應包括下列事項1."},{"start":4652.735,"end":4653.996,"text":"停權規定2."},{"start":4653.996,"end":4655.476,"text":"終止契約規定3."},{"start":4655.476,"end":4656.997,"text":"申訴處理機制4."},{"start":4656.997,"end":4659.298,"text":"報酬明細及記新方式5."},{"start":4659.298,"end":4660.519,"text":"教育訓練6."},{"start":4660.519,"end":4661.839,"text":"商業保險7."},{"start":4661.839,"end":4663.84,"text":"外送服務基本流程8."},{"start":4663.84,"end":4666.081,"text":"提供專能服務聯絡方式9."},{"start":4666.081,"end":4667.141,"text":"其他有關外送員勞動權益之事項"},{"start":4668.622,"end":4685.735,"text":"外送平台業者與外送員成立之外送服務契約違反第一項公告之定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項者其違反部分無效該公告之應記載事項頌未記載於契約中仍視為契約之一部分"},{"start":4687.287,"end":4714.46,"text":"外送平台業者變更或增補外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項應經外送員同意並經主管機關備查未經外送員同意及網際網路公告郵件書面或其他方式對外發布或通知者不勝效力外送平台業者應與外送服務契約成立後三日內提供書面或電子契約與外送員收值契約有變更或增補時一同委員劉建國等16人提案第4條"},{"start":4715.22,"end":4742.035,"text":"中央主管機關應就外送平台業者與外送員成立外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項擬定定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項並公告之前項定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項應包括報酬計算與給付方式停權終止外送服務契約申訴制度保險外送服務基本流程專人服務聯繫聯絡方式及其他有關外送員勞動權益之事項"},{"start":4743.776,"end":4761.588,"text":"外送平台業者與外送員成立外送服務契約違反第一項公告之定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項者無效該公告之應記載事項雖未記載於契約仍構成契約之內容外送平台業者變更或增補外送服務契約之重要權利義務事項"},{"start":4762.628,"end":4788.571,"text":"應經外送員同意且不得已不利對待方式是外送員同意變更或增補之未經外送員同意及以網際網路公告郵件書面或其他方式對外發布或通知者不勝效力外送平台業者應與外送服務契約成立後7日內提供書面或電子契約與外送員收值委員廖偉祥等25人提案第二章外送員薪資計算基準"},{"start":4790.885,"end":4805.647,"text":"委員侯孟凱等二十一人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人委員林倩琦等二十一人提案第十四條外送平台業者應發給外送員報酬明細表每月至少一次報酬之計算包含多種項目者應按每項"},{"start":4806.889,"end":4821.075,"text":"因按每一項目名列與報酬名細表以書面或與網頁指定使用應用程式或其他方式明示其金額及計算方式不得緊列總額計算報酬之項目是以事實為基礎計算則"},{"start":4822.876,"end":4839.906,"text":"因依该正确事实计算并使外送员得及时查阅外送平台业者提供合作商家货款明细表准用本条规定委员罗廷辉等20人提案第14条第一项及第二项与委员洪孟凯等21人提案同第三项如下"},{"start":4840.586,"end":4863.498,"text":"前項報酬費應至少包含基本費里程費等待費樓層費等費用其中基本費不得低於基本工資之三分之一第四項及第五項與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第三項及第四項同委員楊瓊英等19人提案第15條第三項莫具為使外送員得及時查閱於委員洪孟凱等21人提案第14條同"},{"start":4867.58,"end":4883.136,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林楚英等23人委員王真旭等23人委員黃潔等16人提案第9條交通主管機關因依公路法規核定基本運價外送平台業者給付外送員每筆訂單之基本報酬不得低於"},{"start":4883.837,"end":4903.759,"text":"不得低於一前項基本運價所定之運費且外送服務期間換算之每小時基本報酬不得低於最低工資法所定每小時最低工資外送平台業者給付外送員報酬應存額直接給付且每月至少定期發給一次並應提供在名下列十項之外送員報酬明細表"},{"start":4904.219,"end":4927.836,"text":"一報酬總額二每筆訂單報酬之計算方式及金額三依法令或雙方約定的扣除之項目及其金額四實際發起之金額外送平臺業者應自備外送員報酬清澈將給付報酬總額報酬明細等十項紀錄報酬清澈應保存五年委員林月琴等十八人提案第九條第一項如下交通主管機關依公路法"},{"start":4929.008,"end":4944.08,"text":"依公路法規核定自運費 其項目應包括啟程費 續程費 並得加計等待費 樓層費 夜間加成費及春節加成費第二項第二句如下 不得低於前項運費 予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":4945.061,"end":4966.315,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第9條第一項如下交通主管機關因依公路法及相關法規核定外送服務基本運價第三項序文如下外送平台業者應全額直接給付報酬並每月至少發給一次且應提供在名下列四項之報酬明細表予以與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":4968.462,"end":4990.654,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第9條第5項如下 外送平台業者應揭露報酬計算方式 歷次調整及其依據 與民進黨黨團提案同委員李昆城等21人提案第9條第4項如下 外送源自消費者取得之小費 屬外送源與消費者兼之個別給付 不得計入前項所定報酬總額"},{"start":4991.574,"end":5014.978,"text":"第五項與民進黨黨團提案第四項同與民進黨黨團提案同委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第八條報酬項目為基本費里程費等代費樓層費等費用前項報酬之總額不得低於最低工資法所定每小時最低工資三分之一報酬之標準計算方法及發放日期由主管機關會同交通主管機關共同定之"},{"start":5015.838,"end":5038.887,"text":"委員廖偉祥等25人提案第9條外送平台業者應提供外送員在名下列事項之報酬明細表1.報酬總額2.薪資計算方式及金額3.依法令或雙方約定得扣除之項目及其金額4.實際發起之金額外送平台業者應自備外送員報酬清冊將其付報酬總額及報酬明細等事項記錄並應保存5年"},{"start":5041.788,"end":5068.426,"text":"委員 劉建國等16人提案第5條交通主管機關應依公路法規核定基本運價外送平台業者應提供運價成本相關資料供交通主管機關審定外送平台業者給付外送員每筆訂單之基本報酬不得低於1錢向基本運價所計算之運費且每筆訂單外送服務期間換算之每小時基本報酬不得低於最低工資法所定每小時最低工資之1.25倍"},{"start":5070.007,"end":5098.749,"text":"外送平台業者給付外送員報酬因權而直接給付但法令另有規定或雙方另有約定則不在此限外送平台業者給付外送員報酬每月至少定期發給兩次並應提供在名下列四項之報酬明細表第一款至第四款與第一款至第四款以及第五項與民進黨黨團第九條第三項以及第一至第四款第四項同"},{"start":5101.195,"end":5112.054,"text":"委員 劉建國等16人提案第6條外送平台業者於提供訂單與外送員時應明確告知訂單之預估報酬取送商品地點及其他相關重要資訊"},{"start":5113.601,"end":5138.798,"text":"委員黃孟凱等21人委員楊瓊英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人提案第6條中央主管機關應會同中央目的事業主管機關對於外送員資格外送服務期間有關食品安全交通安全之設備或工具訂定外送安全衛生服務標準委員羅廷威等20人提案第6條第三據為外送服務期間有關食品安全衛生與委員黃孟凱等21人提案同"},{"start":5139.759,"end":5151.921,"text":"委員林倩琦等21人提案第6條除文字外送員為外送人員外予以委員洪孟楷等21人提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第5條予以委員洪孟楷等21人提案第6條同"},{"start":5154.315,"end":5170.569,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員徐玉珍等23人委員盧憲一等16人提案第6條外送平台業者應與外送平台介面客戶端明確揭示下列各款事項一商品重量體積及價格服務費或運費之金額"},{"start":5171.71,"end":5189.31,"text":"2.消费者取消订单之退费机制3.外送平台业者得取消订单之情事及退费机制4.商品持严交付交付商品之种类或数量与订单不符及商品损坏之处理方式收退费用及补偿措施"},{"start":5190.251,"end":5218.745,"text":"委員外媒林等十六人提案第八條外送平台業者應與外送平台界面明確揭示下列各款事項一商品價格服務費運費手續費及其他相關費用之金額二消費者取消訂單之退費機制三外送平台業者的取消訂單之事由及退費機制四商品交付遲延之處理方式五交付商品之種類或數量與訂單不符及商品有瑕疵或損壞之處理方式收退費用及賠償措施"},{"start":5219.705,"end":5244.89,"text":"委員黃建豪等17人提案第6條第一、三、四、五款如下1、商品價格、服務費或運費之金額3、外送平台業者的取消訂單之事由及退費機制4、商品持言交付之處理方式5、交付商品之種類或數量與訂單不符及商品損壞之處理方式收退費用及賠償方案予以委員王玉敏等16人提案同"},{"start":5247.112,"end":5273.421,"text":"委員李坤晨等21人提案第4條第一項如下外送平台業者應於平台介面上清楚揭示下列事項確保消費者交易資訊透明一商品價格服務費及運費等金額明細二消費者下單時應明確顯示取餐地點與配送地點之距離或預估配送里程供消費者參考三消費者取消訂單時之退費條件與處理程序四外送平台業者取得"},{"start":5274.381,"end":5291.671,"text":"外送平台業者得取消訂單之情形及其退費機制五 商品若有持言交付品項或數量與訂單不符或發生損壞時之處理流程收退費標準及補償方式第二項與民進黨黨團提案第四條同"},{"start":5292.671,"end":5320.005,"text":"委員許巧欣等17人提案第6條外送平台業者應與外送平台介面客戶端明確揭示下列事項各款事項1 商品價格服務費或運費之金額2 消費者取消訂單之退費機制3 外送平台業者的取消訂單之事由及退費機制4 商品持言交付之處理方式5 交付商品之種類或數量與訂單不符及商品損壞之處理方式收退費用及賠償方案"},{"start":5321.065,"end":5339.886,"text":"委員羅志強等十九人提案第十條 續文及第三四五款與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條 第二三四款相同第一款及第二款如下一 商品重量提積及價格 二 運費或運費以外應付之金額"},{"start":5343.652,"end":5367.533,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員范雲等16人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆城等21人委員王振旭等23人委員黃潔等16人提案第7條外送原因提供外送服務違反《個人資料保護法》《性騷擾防治法》《跟蹤騷擾防治法》《刑法》《交通法規》或《食品安全衛生法規》且清潔重大者外送平台業者使得終止外送服務契約"},{"start":5368.334,"end":5395.163,"text":"外送平台業者依前項規定終止外送服務契約或為其他影響外送員權益之不利決定時應續名完整解明及可理解之理由通知外送員且就其理由之存在負舉證責任並依第十條規定給予外送員申訴機會委員郭玉琴等16人提案第七條第一項倒數第三句如下倒入交通管理處罰條例或食品安全衛生管理法等法令"},{"start":5396.79,"end":5425.4,"text":"予與民進黨黨團提案同委員林儲英等23人提案第7條第一項文字交通法規後面之文字為或食品安全衛生法或食品安全衛生法規者外送平台業者的終止外送服務契約第二項默契為並給予外送員申訴機會予與民進黨黨團提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第16條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第7條第一項同第二項如下"},{"start":5426.34,"end":5441.989,"text":"外送平台業者依前項終止外送服務契約或為其他影響外送員權益之不利處分應續名完成理由通知外送員且就其理由負舉證責任並給予外送員申訴機制委員廖維鄉等二十五人提案第六條"},{"start":5442.689,"end":5460.766,"text":"外送員提供外送服務時違反個人資料保護法性騷擾防治法跟蹤騷擾防治法刑法道路交通管理處罰條例或食品安全衛生相關法規且清潔重大者外送平台業者使得終止外送服務契約外送平台業者依前項規定終止外送服務契約"},{"start":5461.787,"end":5485.769,"text":"或就其他影響外送員權益事項為不利決定時應以書面或電子文件序名完整簡明即可理解即可理解之理由通知外送員且就其理由之存在負舉證責任外送平台業者依前項為不利決定者應依第17條規定提供外送員申訴之機會委員劉建國等16人提案第7條第1項前4句如下"},{"start":5486.309,"end":5505.647,"text":"外送員於提供外送服務期間有違反個人資料保護法性騷擾防治法跟蹤騷擾防治法第二項莫二據如下且就其理由附舉證責任並依第九條規定給予外送員申訴機會予以民進黨黨團提案第七條同"},{"start":5507.884,"end":5526.619,"text":"委員何孟楷等21人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員楊聰英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第8條外送員與外送平台業者間非為僱傭關係者外送平台業者的續名理由後並於30日前預告外送員與其終止外送服務契約"},{"start":5527.319,"end":5542.367,"text":"外送平臺業者依前項中止 外送服務契約者應發給外送員經濟補償前項經濟補償之給付標準期限及其他相關事項之規定由中央主管機關定之臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉米等16人 委員王宏威委員看一下委員王宏威"},{"start":5553.77,"end":5579.037,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐宇貞等23人委員徐曉新等17人委員盧憲一等16人提案第10條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第8條同委員洪孟凱等21人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員楊瓊英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第9條"},{"start":5581.161,"end":5605.216,"text":"外送員與外送平台業者間非為僱傭關係者外送平台業者有下列情形之一者外送員得終止外送服務契約一 外送平台業者於訂立外送服務契約時為虛位之意思表示是外送員誤信而有受損害之餘二 外送平台業者對外送員有違反外送服務契約或勞工法令之停權處分或其他損害行為三 其他法令另有規定"},{"start":5606.457,"end":5629.477,"text":"外送原液前項終止外送服務契約者外送平台業者因應前條之規定發給外送員經濟補償外送原液第一項個款之規定終止契約者因自知悉其情形之日起三十日內為之臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員王紅薇等二十人委員黃建豪等十七人委員徐巧欣等十七人提案第十一條與委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第九條同"},{"start":5634.133,"end":5663.393,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員郭玉琴等16人委員林楚英等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆城等21人委員王正旭等23人委員黃潔等16人提案第8條外送平台業者有下列情形之一者外送員得終止外送服務契約一 外送平台業者與成立外送服務契約時為虛諱之意思表示是外送員誤信而有受損害之餘二 外送平台業者有違反外送服務契約或本法規定自有損害外送員權益"},{"start":5664.654,"end":5683.876,"text":"外送員一前項規定終止外送服務契約應自知悉其情形或損害結果之日起三十日內為之外送員一第一項規定終止外送服務契約外送平台業者應發給外送員經濟補償前項經濟補償是幾乎基準期限方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":5684.837,"end":5704.826,"text":"委員外媒林德十六人提案第十五條第一項第三款如下三 外送平台業者違反本法或其他法令規定至外送員權益受損 予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第九條同委員林月琴等十八人提案第八條第一項第三款如下三 其他可歸則於外送平台業者之事由予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":5708.908,"end":5730.528,"text":"委員許玉珍等23人提案第11條外送員依前項終止外送服務契約者外送平台業者因應前條之規定給予外送員補償委員羅志強等19人提案第15條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第9條同委員盧仙怡等16人提案第11條第二項莫具為"},{"start":5732.495,"end":5757.694,"text":"給予外送員補償與委員王玉明等16人提案同委員廖維祥等25人提案第7條外送平台業者有下列情形之一者外送員得終止外送服務契約一 外送平台業者與成立外送服務契約時為虛位之意思表示致外送員誤信而有受損害之餘二 外送平台業者違反外送服務契約或本法之規定致損害外送員權益"},{"start":5758.835,"end":5771.949,"text":"外送員依前項規定終止外送服務契約者應自知悉其情形或損害結果之日起三十日內為之外送員依第一項規定終止外送服務契約者外送平台業者應與外送員經濟補償"},{"start":5774.131,"end":5797.608,"text":"前項經濟補償之給付基準期限方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員劉建國等十六人提案第八條第一項第二款如下二 外送平台業者違反外送服務契約或本法規定自有損害外送員存益之餘第四項倒數第二句為方式及其他有關事項之辦法與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":5800.185,"end":5825.078,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人委員楊瓊英等19人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第7條外送員與外送平台業者兼為僱傭關係者應適用勞動基準法規定臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉米等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐宇貞等23人委員徐曉新等17人委員盧新義等16人提案第9條與委員侯孟楷等21人提案第7條同"},{"start":5826.636,"end":5841.014,"text":"委員羅廷偉等二十人提案第七條 莫具為應適用勞動基準法制規定與委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案同委員萬美玲等十六人提案第十一條委員羅志強等十九人提案第十三條與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第九條同"},{"start":5850.885,"end":5863.595,"text":"委員紅夢凱等二十一人委員羅廷瑋等二十人委員張家俊等十六人委員劉建國等十七人委員林千祺等二十一人提案第十五條外送平台業者對外送員應建立下列事項之申訴或客戶服務機制制度"},{"start":5866.587,"end":5885.318,"text":"一報酬資金額計算方式給付時間 二停權違規及終止契約事由 三其他對外送員不利益之處分 四販賣或兌換服裝工具設備者其退換或及保固 前項第一款至第三款以外送平台業者提出具體明確事實 使得對外"},{"start":5886.363,"end":5911.104,"text":"外送員停權終止契約或其他不利益處分臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條外送平臺業者應建立下列申訴制度一 外送員停權違規及終止契約處分二 報酬之金額計算方式給付時間三 消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議前項第一款第二款申訴之相關準則由中央主管機關定之並由外送平臺業者以書名或其他適當方式告知外送員"},{"start":5911.864,"end":5928.349,"text":"前項第三款申訴之方式由外送平臺業者自行訂定報經行政院消費者保護處被查後與外送平臺介面公告之委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員許曉清等17人委員許宇貞等23人提案第7條"},{"start":5929.349,"end":5957.808,"text":"外送平臺業者應建立下列申訴制度一 外送員不服停權處分二 消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議前項第一款申訴之相關準則由中央主管機關定之並由外送平臺業者以書面或其他適當方式告知外送員前項第二款申訴之方式由外送員 由外送平臺業者自行訂定報經行政院消費者保護處被查後與外送平臺介面公告之委員楊崇英等19人提案第16條"},{"start":5958.889,"end":5981.566,"text":"與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第15條同民進黨黨團委員林儲英等23人委員黃潔等16人提案第10條外送平台業者對外送員應建立下列事項之申訴制度一 報酬金額計算方式及給付時間二 停權終止外送服務契約或其他對於外送員不利決定三 外送員與合作商家或消費者就外送服務所發生之爭議"},{"start":5982.447,"end":6003.379,"text":"前項申訴制度應至少包括受理單位救濟管道與處理流程處理時間回覆方式及申訴成立後之補償措施等內容並由外送平台業者公開揭示外送平台業者應就其依第七條規定與外送員終止外送服務契約之爭議成立處理小組受理外送員之申訴前項處理小組應定期召開會議"},{"start":6004.239,"end":6013.686,"text":"其成員應符合下列規定並與外送平台業者間無利害關係一 人數不得低於三人二 由具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業"},{"start":6016.548,"end":6035.881,"text":"食物運作之外部專家學者擔任委員外媒林等十六人提案第九條外送平台業者應建立下列事項之申訴制度一外送員停權為規矩中止契約處分二外送員報酬計算方式給付時間三消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議前項第一款第二款申訴是相關準則由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":6036.441,"end":6063.291,"text":"並由外送平台業者以書面或其他適當方式告知外送員第一項第三款申訴之方式由外送平台業者自行訂定報經行政院消費者保護處被查後與外送平台介面公告之委員林月琴等十八人提案第十條第一項序文默劇為應建立下列事項之申訴申訴及救濟制度第一款及第二款如下一報酬金額計算方式給付時間二停權違規終止契約或其他對於外送員不利決定"},{"start":6064.051,"end":6083.024,"text":"第二項守據如下前項申訴及救濟制度第四項如下外送平台業者不得因外送員提出申訴或協助他人申訴而予終止契約停選或其他不利對待第五項守據為第三項處理小組成員因病期召開予與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":6085.993,"end":6112.624,"text":"委員范雲等十六人提案第十條外送平台業者就限制暫停或終止外送員賬戶拒絕支付全部或部分之外送員工作報酬之事項消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議應建立申訴委員會申訴委員會成員應包括工會代表具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台業產業實務運作之外部學者專家學者前向工會代表"},{"start":6113.144,"end":6134.553,"text":"具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業實務運作之外部專家學者不得少於二分之一單一性別不得少於三分之一委員會之組成運作方式申訴救濟程序等由中央主管機關另訂之外送平台業者不得因外送員提出申訴或協助他人申訴而對其作出任何不利之處分"},{"start":6135.856,"end":6162.011,"text":"委員郭玉琴的十六人提案第十條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應建立外送員申訴制度申訴範圍如下第二項如下前項申訴制度應包括受理單位救濟管道處理流程與實現回覆方式及補償措施等內容並由外送平台業者公開揭示第四項序文手續如下前項小組應定期召開會議逗號予與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":6164.246,"end":6188.295,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等十八人提案第十條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第一項同第二項如下未送平台未前項第二款之決定不得僅以自動化管理為之應建立人工複合機制第三項守據為第一項申訴制度與與民進黨黨團第二項同第四項及第五項與民進黨黨團提案第三項及第四項同"},{"start":6188.955,"end":6206.242,"text":"委員李昆城等21人提案第10條第三項如下外送平台業者使用演算法管理者除有第7條情形外凡涉及暫時或永久停權等對外送員權益有重大影響之自動化決策外送員有權要求針對外送平台業者應指派一位據"},{"start":6207.222,"end":6232.033,"text":"具備審查與符合權限的真人管理者進行重新審查並在七日內獲得書面回覆第四項與第五項與民進黨黨團提案第三及第四項同與民進黨黨團提案同委員王振旭等二十三人提案第十條第五項如下申訴內容涉及外送平台業者演算法管理外送平台業者就該決定理由之存在應負舉證責任與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":6235.354,"end":6253.51,"text":"委員羅志強等十九人提案第十一條第一項如下外送平台業者應建立下列申訴制度一外送員停權違規及終止契約處分二報酬資金額計算方式及給付時間三消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議第二項前段倒數第二句之前文字為"},{"start":6254.711,"end":6280.812,"text":"前項第一款第二款申訴之相關準則第二項後段守據為前項第三款申訴之方式與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條第二項同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第七條外送平臺業者應建立下列申訴制度且申訴制度應至少包括受理單位救濟管道處理流程與實現回復方式及補償措施等內容並公開揭示一外送員不服停權之處分"},{"start":6281.773,"end":6307.671,"text":"二 消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議前項第一款申訴之相關準則由中央主管機關定之並組成申訴處理小組其成員由具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平臺產業實務運作之外部專家學者擔任前項小組不定 應不定期召開會議其成員應符合下列規定並與外送平臺業者兼無利害關係一 人數不得低於三人二 成員應"},{"start":6308.772,"end":6324.646,"text":"二 成員至少包括一名由具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業實務運作之外部專家學者擔任三 外送員為援助民族時申訴處理小組成員應至少有一人為援助民族相關領域專家學者"},{"start":6325.667,"end":6341.476,"text":"並由外送平台業者以書面或其他適當方式告知外送員前項第二款申訴之方式由外送平台業者自行訂定報經行政院消費者保護處被查後與外送平台介面公告之委員廖偉湘等二十五人提案第十七條"},{"start":6342.637,"end":6365.856,"text":"外送平臺業者應建立下列申訴制度一 外送員停權違規及終止契約處分二 報酬之金額計算方式給付時間三 合作店家就消費關係所發生之爭議四 消費者就消費關係所發生之爭議前項第一款第二款第三款申訴之相關準則由中央主管機關定之並由外送平臺業者以書面或其他適當方式告知外送員"},{"start":6366.696,"end":6393.502,"text":"前項第四款申訴之方式由外送平臺業者自行訂定報經行政院消費者保護處被查後與外送平臺界面公告之外送平臺業者應就其與外送員停權及終止外送服務契約之爭議成立處理小組受理外送員之申訴前項處理小組應定其召開會議其成員應符合下列規定並與外送平臺業者間無利害關係依人數不得低於三人"},{"start":6395.014,"end":6416.874,"text":"二 由具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業實務運作之外部專家學者擔任三 應至少包含外送工會或相關勞工代表一人委員劉建國等十六人提案第九條外送平台業者應就下列事項建立申訴制度提供外送員進行申訴一 報酬金額計算方式及給付時間"},{"start":6417.555,"end":6438.437,"text":"二 停權終止外送服務契約或其他對外送員不利決定三 外送員與合作商家或消費者就外送服務所發生之爭議前項申訴制度應至少包括受理單位處理時間回覆方式及申訴成立後之補償措施等內容並由外送平台業者公開揭示之外送平台業者應就其一"},{"start":6438.897,"end":6461.799,"text":"第七條規定與外送員終止外送服務契約之爭議成立獨立處理小組受理外送員之申訴前項獨立處理小組應定期召開會議其成員應符合下列規定一 人數不得低於三人其中工會代表至少一人二 前款工會代表以外之小組成員應由具備勞動法令專業或首席外送平台"},{"start":6463.16,"end":6470.922,"text":"產業食物運作之外部專家學者擔任 3與外送平台業者間無利害關係來報告委員會先休息10分鐘"},{"start":7402.774,"end":7430.765,"text":"現在繼續開會請議事人員接續宣讀委員廖偉祥等25人提案第4章申訴制度台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人提案委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐巧欣等17人委員徐宇貞等23人委員盧憲義等16人提案第8條外送平台業者使外送員為外送服務時應符合下列規定一上線後使得提供外送服務二不得違反外送員之意願使其維持上線狀態"},{"start":7432.486,"end":7457.445,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員范雲等16人委員林楚英等23人委員李昆城等21人委員黃婕等16人提案第12條外送平台業者使外送員從事外送服務時應符合下列規定一外送平台業者不得強制排定外送員上線期間或違反外送員意願使其維持上線狀態二外送平台業者對於外送員拒絕接單或選擇下單休息不得有不利對待"},{"start":7458.626,"end":7486.682,"text":"委員萬美玲等16人提案第10條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第8條同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第12條第一款如下一 外送平台業者不得強制排定外送員上線時間或違反其意願要求持續上線予與民進黨黨團提案同委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第12條第三款如下三 外送員有權自主決定上線與下線時間於天災或危險氣候期間得拒絕出行不得受不利處分"},{"start":7488.082,"end":7510.531,"text":"與民進黨黨團提案同委員王振旭等二十三人提案第十二條第三款如下三 外送平台業者發派外送服務與外送原食其運送之單項商品重量與體積以及單筆訂單之總重量及總體積應符合道路交通安全規則關於機車負載物品之規定與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":7511.693,"end":7532.032,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第12條與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第8條同委員廖偉祥等25人提案第16條外送平臺業者使外送員從事外送服務時除以外送服務契約外應遵守下列規定一不得強制排定外送員上線期間或違反外送員意願使其維持上線狀態"},{"start":7533.453,"end":7549.267,"text":"二對於外送員拒絕接單或選擇下線不得有不利對待委員劉建國等16人提案第11條序文如下外送平台業者使外送員提供外送服務時應符合下列規定與民進黨黨團提案第12條同"},{"start":7550.908,"end":7578.206,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人委員羅廷威等20人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第19條外送員與外送平台業者間非為僱傭關係者應准用勞工保險條例及勞工職業災害保險及保護法由外送平台業者為外送員辦理參加勞工保險及勞工職業災害保險台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人"},{"start":7579.006,"end":7592.515,"text":"委員徐曉新等17人委員徐宇珍等23人提案第13條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第8條同委員楊聰英等19人提案第20條與委員洪孟凱等21人第19條提案同"},{"start":7594.827,"end":7611.355,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林楚瑩等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員王振旭等23人委員黃婕等16人提案第14條外送員依勞工職業災害保險及保護法第10條規定或經由其所屬職業公會辦理參加勞工職業災害保險"},{"start":7611.915,"end":7628.286,"text":"得減付繳費證明向外送平台業者申請支付自行負擔之保險費外送平台業者不得拒絕外送員同時與二個以上外送平台業者提供外送服務僅得擇依申請委員萬美玲等16人提案第12條第二句如下"},{"start":7629.146,"end":7646.313,"text":"人應准用勞工保險條例及勞工職業災害保險及保護法與民眾與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十三條同委員林月琴等十八人提案第十四條第二項如下外送員同時於二個以上外送平臺提供外送服務得擇依申請與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":7649.134,"end":7672.089,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第14條外送員依《勞工職業災害保險及保護法》第10條規定或經由其所屬職業工會辦理參加勞工職業災害保險者得減負繳費證明向外送平台業者申請支付其自行負擔之保險費外送平台業者不得拒絕外送員同時與2個以上外送平台業者提供外送服務者僅得擇依申請"},{"start":7674.21,"end":7700.895,"text":"委員李坤誠等21人提案第14條第一項如下外送平台業者應確認外送員已完成勞工職業災害保險之投保程序後使得開放其登錄系統或派發訂單第二項及第三項與民進黨黨團提案同委員羅志祥等19人提案第18條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第13條同委員盧先義等16人提案第13條第一項與委員王玉敏等16人提案同"},{"start":7701.375,"end":7714.871,"text":"第二項如下外送停台業者應與外送服務契約成立時或外送員請求時以書面或電子方式主動告知外送員依規定得申請保險經濟權利與程序委員廖偉祥等25人提案"},{"start":7716.618,"end":7739.046,"text":"第十一條外送員依勞工職業災害保險及保護法第十條規定或經由其所屬職業工會辦理參加勞工職業災害保險者 可減付繳費證明向外送平台業者申請支付自行負擔保險費外送平台業者不得拒絕外送員同時與二個以上外送平台業者提供外送服務者僅得向其中一業者申請前項給付"},{"start":7740.506,"end":7769.404,"text":"委員 劉建國等16人提案第12條外送員依勞工職業災害保險及保護法第7條或第10條規定由其所屬職業工會或由本人辦理參加勞工職業災害保險者得減負繳費證明向外送平台業者申請支付其自行負擔之保險費外送平台業者不得拒絕外送員同時於二個以上品同時於二個以上外送平台提供外送服務僅得擇依申請委員 劉建國等16人提案第三章外送平台管理"},{"start":7772.116,"end":7800.083,"text":"民進黨黨團委員委員范雲等十六人委員郭玉琴等十六人委員林楚瑩等二十三人委員賴瑞榮等十八人委員王振旭等二十三人委員黃婕等十六人提案第四條交通主管機關對於外送平台業者與消費者間重要權利義務事項應依消費者保護法擬定其定型化契約應記載或不得記載事項報請行政院核定後公告之委員林月琴等十八人提案第四條第一項與民進黨黨團提案同第二項如下"},{"start":7800.783,"end":7826.334,"text":"前項定型化契約範本應包括商品內容及價格運費收取收退費機制爭議處理機制食品安全及其他有關消費者權益之事項委員劉建國等十六人提案第十三條交通主管機關對於外送平台業者與消費者兼重要權利義務事項應依消費者保護法擬定其定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項報請行政院核定後公告之"},{"start":7828.258,"end":7849.471,"text":"委員紅夢卡等21人委員張家俊等16人委員羅廷威等20人委員劉建國等17人委員林千祺等21人提案第12條外送合作契約應記載下列事項一外送平台業者收取之各項費用金額或比例二外送平台業者提供之設備及其維護修繕方式及費用三外送平台業者之客服聯絡方式應至少記載電話電子郵件"},{"start":7851.312,"end":7875.747,"text":"四 貨款或服務給付時間及給付方式五 爭議款項處理機制六 合作商家負責人變更之處理機制七 同意消費者之同意訂單經取消貨訂單內容毀損經外送平台業者要求再次給付相同訂單內容之貨款處理機制前條及前項規定於外送平台業者對於合作商家之平台業務招攬行為準用之"},{"start":7876.627,"end":7904.478,"text":"委員楊聰英等十九人提案第十三條與委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十二條同民進黨黨團委員林月清等十八人委員范雲等十六人委員林楚英等二十三人委員賴銳龍等十八人委員李坤臣等李坤臣等二十一人委員王振旭等二十三人委員黃潔等十六人提案第五條經濟主管機關對於外送平台業者與合作商家成立外送合作契約之重要權利義務事項應理定契約範本並公告之"},{"start":7904.998,"end":7922.49,"text":"前項契約範本應包括商品提供及價格運費收取貨款給付爭議處理機制食品安全及其他有關合作商家權益之事項外送平台業者應與外送合作契約成立後七日內提供書面或電子契約與合作商家收值"},{"start":7924.269,"end":7945.358,"text":"委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第五條第一項及第二項如下經濟主管機關因擬定外送平台業者與合作商家外送合作契約之範本並公告之前項契約範本應包括商品與價格運費收取貨款起付爭議處理機制食品安全及其他合作商家權益相關事項與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":7948.123,"end":7956.329,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第8條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第12條第一項同委員廖偉祥等25人提案"},{"start":7958.427,"end":7978.531,"text":"第五條經濟主管機關應就外送平台業者與合作商家及消費者間成立契約之重要權利義務事項擬定契約範本並予公告外送平台業者與消費者間之外送消費契約之範本應依消費者保護法之規定定定為定型化契約並報請行政院公告"},{"start":7979.111,"end":8006.815,"text":"第一項外送平台業者與合作商家之外送合作商家契約範本應包括下列事項一商品提供及價格二運費收取方式及標準三貨款給付及方式四爭議處理機制五食品安全事項六其他有關合作商家權益之事項外送平台業者應於契約成立後七日內提供書面或電子契約與所合作商家收值委員劉建國等十六人提案第十四條第二項如下"},{"start":8009.096,"end":8027.362,"text":"前項契約範本應包括商品提供及價格收取服務及運送費用金額或比例貨款結算與支付方式食品安全與衛生管理爭議處理機制契約期間與終止條件及其他有關合作商家權益之事項予以民進黨黨團提案第五條同"},{"start":8028.722,"end":8045.679,"text":"台湾民众党党团委员王玉米等16人委员王宏威等20人委员徐宇珍等23人委员卢新义等16人委员杨冲英等19人提案第十条外送平台业者与政府机关因天然灾害宣布全日停止上班时应停止营业通知外送员"},{"start":8046.4,"end":8064.388,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員顧玉琴等16人委員林楚英等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆城等21人委員黃潔等16人提案第13條外送平台業者與政府機關因天然災害宣布停止上班時應停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員"},{"start":8066.009,"end":8091.747,"text":"委員萬美玲等十六人提案第十六條第一項序文第二句為應停止營業予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十四條同委員黃建豪等十七人提案第十四條外送平臺業者與政府機關因天然災害宣布停止上班之期間及區域應停止從事外送服務但通知並通知外送員但有正當理由任務顯著或可預見風險者不在此限"},{"start":8093.28,"end":8117.998,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第13條天然災害發生時經外送員工作所在地居住地區正常外送必經地區之轄區首長發布停止上班或確實因災害導致出勤有困難者外送平臺業者不得要求外送員出勤於前項情形外送平臺業者不不得扣發報酬亦不得限制暫停或終止外送員帳戶"},{"start":8120.393,"end":8141.71,"text":"委員王振旭等23人提案第13條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第13條同第二項如下外送平台業者於因天然災害致使外送員繼續外送服務有發生危險之餘時應即採取足以保障外送員安全之必要措施委員許巧欣等17人提案第14條外送平台業者"},{"start":8142.43,"end":8170.896,"text":"與政府機關因天然災害宣布停止上班這期間及區域應停止從事外送服務並通知外送員但有正當理由任務顯著或可預見風險者不在此限委員羅志強等19人提案第19條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條同委員廖偉祥等25人提案第15條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第13條第一項同第二項如下"},{"start":8172.273,"end":8196.093,"text":"前項停止營業之範圍應參照政府公佈之停止範圍並不得跨區營業委員劉建國等16人提案第15條外送平台業者與政府機關應天然災害宣布停止上班之地區應停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員委員廖偉祥等25人提案第5章資訊安全與資料保存"},{"start":8197.819,"end":8216.374,"text":"委員何孟楷等21人委員劉建國等17人委員林建啟等21人委員張家俊等16人提案第10條外送平台業者應確保其程式之資訊安全及系統穩定度並應遵循個人資料保護法之相關規定以保障消費者合作商家及外送員權益委員羅廷輝等20人提案第10條"},{"start":8217.395,"end":8241.323,"text":"委員楊瓊英等十九人提案第十一條 第二句為 應遵循個人資料保護法之相關規定 予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十條同 民進黨黨團委員林楚瑩等二十三人 委員李昆成等二十一人 委員黃潔等十六人提案第十五條 第一項首句文字台為繁字台 予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十條同 第二項如下"},{"start":8242.663,"end":8257.454,"text":"交通主管機關得依個人資料保護法規定要求外送平台業者訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫委員林月琴等18人提案第15條第一項第二句如下並應遵循個人資料保護法之相關規定與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":8259.778,"end":8278.434,"text":"委員范雲等16人提案第15條外送平台業者應對外送員揭示其透過電子方式監控監督或評估外送員工作之自動化監控系統之事實與使用情形以及經由該自動化監控系統對於外送員之資料所為之蒐集處理或利用的具體內容"},{"start":8279.855,"end":8303.466,"text":"外送平台業者不得透過應用程式收集與外送員工作無關聯且非履行外送服務契約所絕對必要的個人資料包括非外送服務期間之私人對話資料外送員之位置或非公開活動資料外送員的健康與心理或情緒狀態資料以及外送員未同意提供或執行外送平台工作時的任何資料等"},{"start":8305.069,"end":8322.907,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第15條外送平台業者應確保程式之資訊安全與系統穩定並遵循個人資料保護法相關規定以保障消費者合作商家及外送員權益交通主管機關得依個人資料保護法要求外送平台業者訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫"},{"start":8324.708,"end":8346.107,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第15條第一項及第二項與民進黨黨團提案同第三項如下外送平台業者應揭露派單評價及停權之自動化管理原則並不得蒐集與外送服務無關之個人資料委員王正旭等23人提案第15條第一項及第二項與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":8348.249,"end":8367.4,"text":"第三項如下外送平台業者應對外送員皆視其演算法管理包括透過電子方式監控監督或評估外送員工作之自動化監控系統之事實與使用情形以及盡有該自動化監測監控系統對於外送員之資料所為之蒐集處理或利用的具體內容"},{"start":8369.198,"end":8389.303,"text":"委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第十八條外送平台業者應確保其程式之資訊安全及系統穩定並依個人資料保護法規定保障消費者合作商家及外送員之權益數位發展主管機關得依個人資料保護法規定要求外送平台業者訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫"},{"start":8390.683,"end":8417.019,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第16條外送平台業者應遵循個人資料保護法之相關規定確保其程式之資訊安全及系統穩定度以保障消費者合作商家及外送員權益委員黃婕等16人提案第16條外送平台業者應對外送員及中央主管機關揭示其透過演算法監測監控控制或評估外送員工作之資料及行為之事實"},{"start":8418.837,"end":8443.146,"text":"目的及運用情形外送平台業者以演算法處理外送員之勞動權益及報酬應基於公平性原則不得產生歧視或不平等待遇中央主管機關得要求外送平台業者說明及驗證前項演算法外送平台業者不得拒絕前三項演算法之應揭示內容決策過程及說明與驗證方式由中央主管機關會同數位發展主管機關定之"},{"start":8443.846,"end":8453.174,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第17條外送平台業者應定期向中央主管機關提供外送員人數外送服務期間上限期間及報酬等相關資訊"},{"start":8455.515,"end":8484.973,"text":"委員侯孟凱等二十一人委員張家俊等十六人委員徐玉珍等二十三人委員劉建國等十七人委員林切奇等二十一人提案第十六條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存二年並提供有關機關調閱不得拒絕一消費者訂購食品商品或服務之時間及內容五二食品商品或服務之價格服務費或運費三消費者取消訂單之退費機制四外送平台業者的取消訂單之事由及退費機制五食品商品"},{"start":8485.353,"end":8512.249,"text":"服務給付遲延給付之種類或數量與訂單不符有瑕疵或損壞之處理方式收退費用及補償措施六 消費者與外送平台業者兼之契約七 客戶服務投訴處理紀錄八 其他與前七款有關之紀錄前項第一款至第六款外送平台業者應向消費者明確揭示並應建立客戶服務機制台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人提案第五條"},{"start":8513.169,"end":8540.226,"text":"以下各款電池記錄外送平台業者至少應保存一年供有關機關調閱一 消費者訂購商品之時間及內容二 廠商接受訂單之時間及內容三 外送員提供外送服務之時間地點及內容四 消費者之付款記錄五 消費者與客服人員之對話記錄委員羅廷偉等二十人提案第十六條第一項序文第二句及第三句如下外送平台業者應至少保存三年提供有關機關調閱委員"},{"start":8542.407,"end":8557.186,"text":"予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案同委員楊聰英等十九人提案第十七條第二項如下前項第一款至第六款外送平台業者應向消費者明確揭示應建立客戶服務機制予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十六條同"},{"start":8560.1,"end":8581.79,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員范雲等16人委員賴銳榮等18人委員李坤城等21人委員王真旭等23人提案第16條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存二年一消費者訂購商品之時間及內容物二商品之價格服務費或運費第三七八款與委員洪孟凱等21人提案同"},{"start":8583.531,"end":8600.043,"text":"第四至第六款如下四 外送平台業者得取消訂單之事有及退費機制五 商品及副持員及副之種類或數量與訂單不符有瑕疵或損壞之處理方式收退費用及補償措施六 消費者與外送平台業者兼之契約"},{"start":8600.943,"end":8626.81,"text":"第二項及第三項如下前項第一款至第六款外送平台業者應對消費者明確揭示並應建立客戶服務機制有關機關得要求調閱第一項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕委員萬美玲等16人提案第七條序文第二句為外送平台業者至少應保存二年第四及第六款如下四商品給付時間及消費者給付紀錄六其他與前五款相關之內容"},{"start":8628.391,"end":8640.047,"text":"與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條同委員黃建豪等17人提案委員瞿喬欣等17人提案第五條與委員王玉銘等16人提案第五條續文及第一至第四款同"},{"start":8642.782,"end":8668.129,"text":"委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第十六條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應保存下列紀錄期限不得少於二年第二五七款如下二商品價格服務費或運費五商品及副持也內容不符有瑕自貨損壞之處理方式費用及補償措施七克服與投訴處理紀錄與民進黨黨團提案同委員林楚英等二十三人提案第十六條第三項如下"},{"start":8668.829,"end":8695.889,"text":"有關機關的要求調閱第一項各款紀錄除有妨害營業秘密等正當理由外外送平台業者不得拒絕予以民進黨黨團提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第九條第一項序文如下以下各款電池紀錄外送平台業者至少應保存兩年第一三五款與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五項的一三五款同第二及第四款以及第六至第九款如下"},{"start":8696.71,"end":8719.215,"text":"二 合作商家接受訂單及提供食品或商品之時間及內容四 消費者之付款與退費紀錄六 合作商家與平台之客戶服務或爭議之處理紀錄七 外送員與平台之申訴處理紀錄八 貸款之處理之計算方式及給付時間九 其他與前七項有關之紀錄有關機關的要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕"},{"start":8719.955,"end":8742.995,"text":"委員盧憲義等十六人提案第五條第六 七款如下六 外送員報酬清澈七 終止契約或其他方式對外送員為不利之決定予以委員王玉明等十六人提案同委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第十九條外送平台業者應保存下列與消費者交易有關之紀錄保存時間不得低於二年一 消費者訂購商品之時間及品名"},{"start":8744.196,"end":8764.143,"text":"第二 三 四 六 八款與民進黨黨團提案第十六條二 三 四 六 八款同第五及第七款如下五 商品及付遲延及付總額或數量與訂單不符有瑕疵或損壞之處理方式收退費用及補償措施七 客戶服務及投訴處理紀錄"},{"start":8765.803,"end":8781.748,"text":"前項第一款至第六款外送平台業者應對消費者明確揭示並建立客戶服務機制有關機關得依職權要求調閱第一項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕委員黃潔等十六人提案第十七條與民進黨團提案第十六條同"},{"start":8782.668,"end":8799.088,"text":"委員劉建國等十六人提案第十八條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應保存下列各款與消費者有關之紀錄至少二年第三四五七款如下三消費者取消訂單之退費情形四外送平台業者取消訂單之適由及退費情形"},{"start":8799.628,"end":8822.647,"text":"五 商品有給付遲延給付這種類貨數量與訂單不符有瑕疵或損壞時外送平台業者之處理方式收退費用及補償措施七 客戶服務及投訴處理紀錄第一項其餘內容與民進黨黨團提案第十六條第一項同第二項如下有關機關的要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕"},{"start":8824.554,"end":8850.8,"text":"委員侯孟凱等21人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第17條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存二年並提供有關機關及合作商家調閱不得拒絕一 外送合作契約二 平台業務招攬行為及其執行紀錄三 合作商家接受訂單及提供食品商品或服務之時間及內容四 與合作商家兼職客戶服務或爭議之處理紀錄"},{"start":8852.1,"end":8881.284,"text":"五 貸款資計算方設計給付時間六 其他與前五款有關資紀錄委員羅廷威等二十人提案第十七條續文第二及第三句如下外送平台業者應至少保存三年提供有關機關及合作商家調閱予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案同委員楊瓊英等十九人提案第十八條續文第三句如下提供有關機關及合作商家調閱予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十七條同"},{"start":8883.786,"end":8896.507,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等十八人委員范雲等十六人委員賴瑞榮等十八人委員李昆城等二十一人委員王振旭等二十三人提案第十七條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存二年一外送合作契約"},{"start":8898.379,"end":8919.091,"text":"二 平台業務招攬行為及其執行紀錄三 合作商家接受訂單及提供商品之時間及內容四 其與合作商家兼職客戶服務或爭議之處理紀錄五 貸款之計算方式及給付時間六 其他與前五款有關之紀錄有關機關得要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕"},{"start":8921.658,"end":8949.162,"text":"委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第十七條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應保存下列與合作商家相關之紀錄期限不得少於二年第三款如下三合作商家接受訂單及提供商品之實踐與內容予以民進黨黨團提案同委員林楚英等二十三人提案第十七條第二項如下有關機關的要求調閱前項各款紀錄除有妨害營業秘密等正當理由外外送平台業者不得拒絕予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":8950.566,"end":8970.457,"text":"委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第二十條外送平台業者應保存下列與合作商家交易及合作有關的紀錄保存時間不得低於二年一外送合作商家契約二平台業務招攬行為及其執行紀錄三合作商家接受訂單及提供商品之時間及內容四合作商家之客戶服務"},{"start":8971.778,"end":8998.914,"text":"或爭議處理紀錄 五 貸款計算方式及給付時間 六 其他與前五款相關之紀錄有關機關得依職權要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平臺業者不得拒絕 委員黃潔等16人提案第18條與民進黨黨團提案第17條同 委員劉建國等16人提案第19條 第一項序文如下外送平臺業者應保存下列各款與合作商家有關之紀錄至少二年與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":9000.956,"end":9018.959,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第18條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存5年並提供有關機關及外送員調閱不得拒絕一外送服務契約二外送服務期間三第15條第一項第一款至第三款"},{"start":9019.56,"end":9043.291,"text":"委員羅廷威等二十人提案第十八條 續文第三句為提供有關機關及外送員調閱予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案同委員楊從英等十九人提案第十九條 續文第三句如下提供有關機關及外送員調閱第三款如下三 第十六條第一項第一款至第三款予以委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第十八條同"},{"start":9044.301,"end":9070.379,"text":"民進黨黨團委員泰雲等16人委員李昆城等21人委員王真旭等23人提案第18條下列各款紀錄外送平台業者應至少保存5年1.外送服務契約2.外送服務期間3.外送員上線期間4.第9條第4項所定之外送員報酬清澈5.停權1.第7條規定終止外送服務契約及以演算法或其他方式對外送員為不利之決定6.其他外送服務契約終止情勢"},{"start":9071.5,"end":9094.201,"text":"有關機關的要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕委員您願請得十八人提案第十八條第一項第五六七款如下五第十條第一項各款之申訴事項六一第七條規定終止外送服務契約即以演算法或其他方式對外送員為不利之決定其他外送服務契約終止情勢予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":9097.389,"end":9125.644,"text":"委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第十八條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應保存下列與外送員相關之紀錄期限不得少於五年第五六款如下五 停權依第七條規定終止契約即以演算法或其他方式對外送員為不利之決定六 其他外送服務契約終止相關紀錄予與民進黨黨團提案同委員林楚英等二十三人提案第十八條第二項同"},{"start":9126.721,"end":9145.737,"text":"第十七條的第二項予以民進黨黨團提案同委員賴瑞榮等十八人提案第十八條第一項第五六七款如下五對外送員停權或其他不利之決定六一第七條規定終止外送服務契約七其他外送服務契約終止請示予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":9146.377,"end":9163.723,"text":"委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第二十一條外送平台業者應保存下列與外送員服務有關之紀錄保存期間不得低於五年第一至第三款以及第六款與民進黨黨團提案第十八條同的第四及第五款如下"},{"start":9164.503,"end":9193.723,"text":"四 外送員報酬獎金與其他費用清測五 停權一 第六條規定終止外送服務契約或其他對外送員不利之決定第二項如下 主管機關得益職權要求調閱前項各款紀錄外送平台業者不得拒絕委員黃婕等16人提案第19條與民進黨黨團提案第18條同委員劉建國等16人提案第20條第一項序文如下外送平台業者應保存下列各款與外送員有關之紀錄至少二年"},{"start":9195.243,"end":9216.974,"text":"第三款如下 三上限期間第四及第五款與民進黨黨團提案第十八條第五六款相同第六則及第七款如下六 第二十二條規定之外第二十二條規定之外送原教育訓練紀錄七其他與前六款有關這紀錄與民進黨黨團提案第十八條同"},{"start":9218.055,"end":9236.85,"text":"委員何孟凱等21人委員羅廷威等20人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等16人提案第20條外送源於外送服務期間發生下列職業災害之一者外送平台業者應於8小時內通報勞動部職業安全署所屬之勞動檢查機構一死亡二道路交通事故"},{"start":9238.071,"end":9264.614,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉明等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃振豪等17人委員徐宇珍等23人委員徐巧欣等17人委員盧憲義等16人提案第15條序文莫具為外送平台業者應於8小時內通報勞動部職業安全衛生署所屬之勞動檢查機構與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第20條同委員楊聰英等19人提案第21條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第20條同"},{"start":9266.843,"end":9294.841,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人 委員林楚英等23人 委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆城等21人 委員王振旭等23人提案第19條外送源於外送服務期間發生下列職業災害之一者外送平台業者應於8小時內通報當地勞動檢查機構並於事後實施事故調查分析及做成記錄一發生死亡災害二發生災害之離災人數在一人以上且需住院住院治療"},{"start":9295.521,"end":9324.528,"text":"委員外媒林的十六人提案第十八條 外送源於外送服務期間發生下列職業災害之一者外送平台業者應於八小時內通報勞動檢查機構一 死亡災害二 災害之罹災人數三人以上三 災害之罹災人數一人以上且需住院治療委員林月琴的十八人提案第十九條第二及第三款如下二 發生災害之罹災人數在三人以上三 發生災害之罹災人數在一人以上且需住院治療"},{"start":9325.449,"end":9326.493,"text":"與民進黨黨團提案同委員黃潔等16人提案"},{"start":9333.564,"end":9357.05,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第20條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條同委員廖偉祥等25人提案第14條外送源於外送服務期間發生下列職業災害之一者外送平台業者因與知悉或可得而知該情勢之時起8小時內通報當地勞動檢查機構並於事後實施事故調查分析及做成記錄"},{"start":9357.97,"end":9366.582,"text":"一 發生死亡災害二 發生災害之離災人數在一人以上且需住院治療委員黃婕等16人提案第20條委員劉建國等16人提案第21條與民進黨黨團提案第19條同"},{"start":9373.584,"end":9395.577,"text":"委員何孟凱等21人委員張家俊等16人委員劉金國等17人提案第21條外送平臺業者對新加入之外送員應提供至少4小時實體之職業安全交通安全及食品衛生安全教育訓練課程對已完成前項教育訓練課程之從業外送員每年應至少提供2小時之實體或線上之教育訓練課程"},{"start":9398.076,"end":9424.919,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第21條同委員羅廷輝等20人提案第21條前段如下外送平台業者對新進外送員應提供至少4小時實體之職業安全交通安全及食品安全衛生教育訓練課程與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第21條同委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員徐玉珍等23人提案第16條後段如下"},{"start":9425.619,"end":9435.142,"text":"對已完成前述教育訓練課程之從業外送員每年應至少提供2小時之實體或線上之教育訓練課程與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條同委員楊聰英等19人提案第22條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第21條同"},{"start":9443.612,"end":9471.44,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等十六人 委員林楚瑩等二十三人 委員賴瑞榮等十八人 委員李昆城等二十一人 委員王真旭等二十三人 提案第二十條外送平臺業者對新加入之外送員應提供一定時數之交通安全 職業安全 食品衛生安全及其他必要之教育訓練 外送平臺業者每年應要求提供外送服務之外送員至少完成一定時數之教育訓練前二項教育訓練之一定時數 內容及實施方式等有關事項"},{"start":9471.96,"end":9495.959,"text":"由中央主管機關交通主管機關及衛生福利主管機關分別定之委員萬美玲的十六人提案第十七條外送平台業者對新加入之外送員應於提供外送服務前施以至少四小時之職業安全交通安全及食品衛生安全教育訓練課程對已完成前項教育訓練課程之從業外送員每年應至少應提供二小時之線上之教育訓練課程"},{"start":9497.02,"end":9521.812,"text":"外送平台業者不得向外送員收取前向教育訓練費用或以提供教育訓練為由與外送員為最低服務期限之約定委員黃建豪等17人委員徐曉新徐曉新等17人提案第16條外送平台業者對新加入之外送員應與其提供外送服務前是以職業安全食品衛生安全及交通安全教育訓練課程各一小時以上"},{"start":9522.532,"end":9550.515,"text":"對已完成前數教育訓練課程之從業外送員每年應至少提供一次在職教育訓練委員林月琴等18人提案第20條外送平台業者對新加入之外送員應施以下列教育訓練一 一小時以上職業安全訓練二 一小時以上交通安全訓練三 一小時以上食品衛生安全訓練四 其他金主管機關公告或必要之訓練外送平台業者對已完成前項教育訓練之從業外送員"},{"start":9552.148,"end":9576.773,"text":"每年應要求外送員至少完成一定時數之教育訓練並應包含至少一小時之交通安全課程外送員已在其他平台業者接受前二項之教育訓練得免實施之外送平台業者不得向外送員收取第一項及第二項教育訓練費用或以提供教育訓練為由與外送員為最低服務期限之約定"},{"start":9577.253,"end":9603.366,"text":"第一項及第二項教育訓練課程之內容及實施方式等有關事項由中央主管機關交通主管機關及衛生福利主管機關分別定之委員郭玉琴等十六人提案第二十條第二項如下外送平台業者每年應要求提供外送服務之外送員完成一定時數之持續教育訓練第三項守據為前二項教育訓練之時數與與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":9605.547,"end":9630.734,"text":"委員林倩琪等21人提案第21條文字外送員為外送人員第二句為應提供至少6小時實體之職業安全與委員洪孟凱等21人提案同委員羅志強等19人提案第21條與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條同委員盧憲義等16人提案第16條第一項與委員王玉銘等16人提案第16條同第二項如下"},{"start":9633.226,"end":9661.775,"text":"如外送地區為原住民族地區而外送員為原住民時外送平台業者於訂定教育訓練課程時應考量原住民族之文化語言及地區差異性提供多元化符合原住民族需求之教育訓練或教材委員廖偉祥等二十五人提案第十二條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第二十條第一項同第二項及第三項如下外送平台業者每年對"},{"start":9663.055,"end":9682.233,"text":"提供外送服務之外送員應要求其至少完成一定時數之教育訓練前二項教育訓練之一定時數內容及實施方式等事項由中央主管機關交通主管機關及衛生福利主管機關共同定之其總時數不得低於4小時委員黃潔等16人提案第21條與民進黨黨團提案第20條同"},{"start":9686.436,"end":9703.647,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第22條第一項如下外送平台業者對新加入之外送員應提供一定時數之職業安全衛生交通安全食品衛生安全及其他必要之教育訓練第三項第二句為內容等有關事項予以民進黨黨團提案第20條同"},{"start":9707.918,"end":9736.095,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人 委員羅廷瑋等20人委員張家俊等16人 委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人提案第22條外送員提供外送服務時發生道路交通事故致人於死或重傷 經鑑定同為造勢原因或為造勢主因者應於三個月內完成48小時道路交通安全講習未於期限內完成者外送平台業者應停止指派其提供外送服務"},{"start":9737.476,"end":9760.714,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員王宏威等20人委員黃建豪等17人委員徐巧欣等17人提案第12條第三據如下且經鑑定同為肇事原因或為肇事主因者與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第22條同委員楊崇英等19人提案第23條與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第22條同"},{"start":9762.628,"end":9788.364,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林楚英等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆城等21人委員王正旭等23人提案第21條外送員於提供外送服務時因違反交通主管機關認定有重大影響交通安全之行為時外送平台業者應依通知改善期內完成實施外送員運送安全講習於完成講習前外送平台業者不得使其提供外送服務"},{"start":9789.604,"end":9815.707,"text":"委員外媒林的十六人提案第十九條外送源於提供外送服務時發生道路交通事故致人於死或重傷且經鑑定同為肇事原因或為肇事主因者應於兩個月內完成道路交通安全講習位於期限內完成者外送平台業者應停止指派其提供外送服務前向道路安全前向道路交通安全講習之內容時機時數執行單位等由交通部會同內政部定之"},{"start":9816.408,"end":9835.447,"text":"委員林月琴等18人提案第21條外送源於提供外送服務時發生道路交通事故致人於死或重傷且經鑑定同為肇事原因或為肇事主因者或因違反交通有關法令規定應接受道路交通安全講習者於完成講習前外送平台業者不得使其提供外送服務"},{"start":9837.321,"end":9866.621,"text":"委員徐宇珍等23人提案第12條第二句為發生道路交通重大事故文字48小時為72小時與台灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員郭玉琴等16人提案第21條外送員於提供外送服務時若有交通主管機關認定之重大影響交通安全行為外送平台業者應於通知改善期限內完成外送員運送安全講習與講習完成前外送平台業者不得使其提供外送服務"},{"start":9867.541,"end":9886.602,"text":"委員羅志強等十九人提案第十七條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十二條同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第十二條第二句為發生道路交通重大事故第四句為應於三個月內完成七十二小時道路交通安全講習與委員王玉敏等十六人提案同"},{"start":9888.584,"end":9904.006,"text":"委員廖維鄉等二十五人提案第十三條外送源於提供外送服務時若違反交通主管機關認定之重大影響交通安全之行為外送平台業者應暫停其提供外送服務外送平台業者應依前項通知"},{"start":9904.967,"end":9926.52,"text":"與改善期內完成對該外送員之運送安全講習與完成講習前外送平台業者不得使其提供外送服務安全講習應於三個月內完成且總時數不得低於48小時未於期限內完成者任意外送平台業者應停止指派其提供外送服務委員黃婕等16人提案第22條"},{"start":9928.141,"end":9932.225,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第23條與民進黨黨團提案第21條同委員廖偉祥等25人提案第6章罰則委員劉建國等16人提案第4章罰則"},{"start":9941.716,"end":9962.887,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員徐宇貞等二十三人委員盧憲一等十六人提案第十八條外送平台業者有違反第八條第十四條之規定者儲新台幣六萬元以上三十萬元以下發還委員王宏威等二十人委員黃建豪等十七人委員徐巧欣等十七人提案第十九條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十八條同"},{"start":9964.008,"end":9992.687,"text":"民進黨黨團委員范雲等16人委員林楚英等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員李昆成等21人提案第22條外送平台業者違反第12條第13條規定者由直轄市縣市主管機關處刑台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第21條規定者由交通主管機關處刑台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還外送平台業者拒絕規避或妨礙主管機關目的事業主管機關監督檢查及調閱紀錄者"},{"start":9994.228,"end":10017.678,"text":"儲新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還外送平台業者有下列情形之一者主管機關或目的事業主管機關儲新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還1違反第8條第3項第9條第2項至第4項第10條第20條第1項或第2項規定2違反第6條第5項第11條第2項第14條第1項第18條第1項規定經通知限期改善 借期未改善"},{"start":10018.298,"end":10042.807,"text":"外送平台業者違反第五條第三項第十六條第一項第十七條第一項規定者經通知限期改善 借期未改善由目的事業主管機關處心台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第十一條第一項或第十九條規定依職業安全衛生法相關規定處罰外送平台業者違反本法經處以罰還者主管機關或目的事業主管機關應公佈其名稱"},{"start":10043.727,"end":10057.852,"text":"負責人姓名處分日期違反條文及發還金額並限期令其改善 借其未改善者按次處罰委員外 美尼德16人提案第22條外送平台業者有違反第16條之規定者處心台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下發還"},{"start":10059.833,"end":10081.544,"text":"外送平台業者有違反第十六條規定且外送源於執行外送服務過程中死亡者儲新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還委員林月琴的十八人提案第二十二條第四項第一款如下一違反第八條第三項第九條第二項至第四項第十條第二十條第一項第二項或第四項第七項莫具為因案次處罰與民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":10086.311,"end":10113.836,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第23條第三項如下外送平台業者拒絕規避或妨礙主管機關或目的事業主管機關監督檢查及調閱記錄者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰款予以民進黨黨團提案同委員王真旭等23人提案第22條第一項第二據為第13條第一項及第二項規定者第4項第一款第4據為第15條第三項予以民進黨黨團提案同"},{"start":10114.716,"end":10127.891,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第24條第一項莫具前面文字為外送平台業者有違反第14條第15條之規定第二項守據為外送平台業者有違反第19條之規定與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條同"},{"start":10131.975,"end":10149.458,"text":"委員廖維祥等二十五人提案第二十二條第一項首二據如下外送平台業者違反第十六條第十七條規定者第二項首據如下外送平台業者違反第十四條規定者第四項如下外送平台業者有下列情形之一者主管機關或目的是"},{"start":10150.078,"end":10177.562,"text":"或目的事業主管機關處新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還一違反第七條第三項第八條第九條第一項第十七條第十二條第一項或第二項規定二違反第四條第五項第十條第二項第十一條第一項第二十一條第一項規定經通知限期改善借期未改善第五項前三句如下外送平台業者違反第五條第四項第十九條第一項第二十條第一項規定者第六項首句如下外送平台業者"},{"start":10178.102,"end":10205.267,"text":"違反第十條第一項或第十五條規定與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條同委員黃潔燈十六人提案第二十三條第一項與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第一項同第二二三四項如下外送平台業者違反第十六條第二項規定者由中央主管機關儲新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第二十二條規定者由交通主管機關儲新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10206.167,"end":10221.892,"text":"外送平台業者拒絕規避或妨礙中央主管機關監督及檢查演算法者處新台幣十五萬元以上七十五萬元以下罰款第五項與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第三項同第六項第一款莫具為"},{"start":10223.331,"end":10244.996,"text":"第二十一條第一項或第二項規定第二款倒數第三據為第十九條第一項規定予以民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第四項同第七及第八項如下外送平台業者違反第五條第三項第十六條第一項第十七條第一項第十八條第一項規定者經通知限期改善屆期未改善由目的事業主管機關處"},{"start":10245.996,"end":10258.883,"text":"新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第十一條第一項或第二十條規定依職業安全衛生法相關規定處罰第九項與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第七項同"},{"start":10261.175,"end":10289.272,"text":"委員劉建國等十六年提案第二十四條第一項首二據為外送平台業者違反第十一條第十五條規定者第二項首據為外送平台業者違反第二十三條規定者予與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第一及第二項同第三項如下外送平台業者違反第二十一條規定由主管機關處新台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還第四項與民進黨黨團提案第二十二條第三項同第五及第六項如下"},{"start":10290.012,"end":10305.767,"text":"外送平台業者有下列情形之一者由主管機關或目的事業主管機關處新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還一違反第四條第五項第十二條第一項第十四條第三項第十八條第一項第十九條第一項或第二十條第一項規定經通知限期改善 借期未改善"},{"start":10307.088,"end":10330.642,"text":"2 違反第22條第1項第2項有關交通安全或食品衛生安全教育訓練之規定 經通知限期改善 藉其為改善3 違反第5條第2項至第5項第8條第3項第9條或第10條規定外送平台業者違反第22條第1項第2項有關職業安全衛生教育訓練之規定依職業安全衛生法相關規定處罰委員劉建國等16人提案第25條與民進黨黨團提案第22條第7項同"},{"start":10335.666,"end":10360.286,"text":"委員侯孟楷等二十一人 委員羅廷威等二十人 委員張家俊等十六人 委員林倩琦等二十一人 提案第二十四條外送平台業者違反第十一條 第十六條至第十八條之規定 經通知限期改善 皆其未改善者儲新台幣二萬元以上 十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第十四條 第十五條 第二十條及第二十一條之規定儲新台幣二萬元以上 十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10361.207,"end":10387.785,"text":"外送平臺業者拒絕規避或妨礙中央主管機關監督者儲新臺幣三萬元以上十五萬元以下罰還臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等十六人委員許宇貞等二十三人委員許曉清委員許巧欣等十七人委員盧憲一等十六人提案第十七條外送平臺業者有違反第四條之第六條及第十三條之規定經通知限期改善藉其為改善者儲新臺幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10388.806,"end":10407.843,"text":"外送平台業者有違反第7條第12條第15條及第16條之規定者處心台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還外送平台業者有拒絕規避或妨礙中央主管機關監督者處心台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還委員楊崇英等19人提案第25條第一項首二舉如下"},{"start":10408.283,"end":10424.421,"text":"外送平台業者違反第十二條第十七條之第十九條之規定第二項如下外送平台業者違反第十五條第十六條第二十一條及第二十二條之規定處新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還予議委員洪孟凱等二十一人提案第二十四條同"},{"start":10427.301,"end":10441.651,"text":"委員外媒林等十六人提案第二十條外送平台業者違反第六條至第十條第十七條至第十九條之規定處新台幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰款並令其限期改善 皆其為改善者按次處罰"},{"start":10442.572,"end":10460.965,"text":"外送平台業者有拒絕規避或妨礙中央主管機關監督者儲新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還委員黃正豪等17人提案第18條外送平台業者有違反第4條至第6條及第13條之規定經通知限期改善 借其為改善者儲新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10461.966,"end":10475.366,"text":"外送平台業者有違反第七條第十二條第十五條及第十六條之規定者處心台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者有拒絕規避或妨礙中央主管機關監督者處心台幣三萬元以上十五萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10477.168,"end":10495.273,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第24條第一至第三項罰還額度分別為新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下與委員洪孟凱等21人提案第24條同"},{"start":10497.389,"end":10519.721,"text":"委員 羅志強等十九人提案第二十二條 第一項倒數第三 據知前文字為外送平台業者有違反第六條 第九條 第十條及第十八條之規定第二項 莫具知前面文字為外送平台業者有違反第十一條 第十六條 第十七條 第二十條及第二十一條之規定者 予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十七條同"},{"start":10521.775,"end":10542.303,"text":"委員侯孟楷等21人委員羅廷威等20人委員張家俊等16人委員林倩琦等21人提案第23條外送平臺業者違反第8條第9條第19條第22條之規定處新臺幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還臺灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員徐宇貞等23人委員盧憲義等16人提案第19條"},{"start":10543.363,"end":10566.177,"text":"外送平台業者有違反第十條第十一條之規定儲新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還外送平台業者有違反第十四條之規定且外送源於執行外送服務過程中死亡者儲新台幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還委員王宏威等二十人委員黃建豪等十七人委員徐巧欣等十七人提案第二十條與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十九條同"},{"start":10569.379,"end":10584.488,"text":"委員楊瓊英等19人提案第24條外送平台業者違反第8條第9條第20條第23條之規定儲新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還外送平台業者違反第10條規定儲新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還"},{"start":10586.519,"end":10610.158,"text":"委員萬美玲等16人提案第21條外送平台業者有違反第12條至第15條之規定儲新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並令其限期改善藉其未改善者按次處罰委員劉建國等17人提案第23條莫具為儲新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還予以委員洪孟凱等21人提案第23條同"},{"start":10611.779,"end":10620.513,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第23條外送平台業者有違反第12條第19條之規定者儲新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰款"},{"start":10623.171,"end":10649.984,"text":"委員劉建國等十六人提案第五章負責民進黨黨團委員林月琴等十八人委員范雲等十六人委員郭玉琴等十六人委員林楚英等二十三人委員李昆城等二十一人委員王真旭等二十三人提案第二十三條外送平台業者將外送服務業務委託與第三人並由其與外送員成立外送服務契約者該第三人適用第六條至第十四條第十八條至第二十一條及其發則規定"},{"start":10651.405,"end":10671.786,"text":"前項第三人與外送員間具有僱傭關係者依第一條第二項但書規定辦理委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第23條第一及第二項與民進黨黨團提案第23條同第三項如下受外送平台業者委託辦理外送服務之第三人應付同等外送員權益保障義務"},{"start":10673.26,"end":10701.712,"text":"委員廖維祥等二十五人提案第二十三條外送平台業者將外送服務業務托與將外送服務業務委托與第三人辦理並由該第三人與外送員成立外送服務契約者該第三人應適用本法第四條第六條至第八條第十條至第十七條第二十一條及其罰則規定第二項與民進黨黨團提案第二十三條第二項同"},{"start":10702.532,"end":10726.46,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案第24條第1項據莫違第19條至第22條及其罰則規定與民進黨黨團提案同第23與民進黨黨團提案第23條同委員劉建國等16人提案第26條外送平台業者將外送服務業務委託與第三人並由其與外送員成立外送服務契約者"},{"start":10727.14,"end":10730.764,"text":"該第三人士用第4條至第12條第15條至第17條第20條至第23條及其罰則規定第二項與民進黨黨團提案第23條第二項同委員廖維祥等25人提案第7章負責"},{"start":10743.857,"end":10769.089,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員范雲等16人委員郭玉琴等16人委員林楚瑩等23人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員王振旭等23人委員廖維祥等25人提案第24條委員黃潔等16人提案第25條委員劉建國等16人提案第27條本法實行細則由中央主管機關會商各中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":10770.049,"end":10788.152,"text":"委員洪孟楷等21人委員羅廷威等20人委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等17人委員林倩琦等21人委員羅志強等19人提案第25條本法自公佈日施行台灣民眾黨黨團委員王玉敏等16人委員徐宇貞等23人委員盧憲一等16人提案第20條"},{"start":10789.98,"end":10804.096,"text":"委員王宏威等二十人委員黃健豪等十七人委員徐巧欣等十七人提案第二十一條委員楊瓊英等十九人提案第二十六條委員萬美玲等十六人提案第二十三條本法自公佈日施行"},{"start":10805.057,"end":10832.174,"text":"民進黨黨團委員林月琴等18人委員范雲等16人委員郭玉琴等16人委員賴瑞榮等18人委員王振旭等23人委員廖偉翔等25人提案第25條委員黃潔等16人提案第26條委員劉建國等16人提案第28條本法自公布後6個月施行委員林楚英等23人提案第25條本法施行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":10835.623,"end":10838.105,"text":"好現在休息下午2時30分繼續開會"},{"start":21443.217,"end":21462.193,"text":"好謝謝現在繼續開會進行外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案等26案之逐條討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見好那現在進行本案的本法案的逐條討論現在討論法案名稱"},{"start":21473.188,"end":21481.832,"text":"現在有26個提案先請勞動部說明"},{"start":21489.111,"end":21516.587,"text":"主席各位委員 有關於本法案的名稱因為本法的立法目的主要是要橫平外送平台的外送員 消費者 合作商家以及外送平台業者之間的權利義務的關係其中又以外送員作為弱勢所以所有委員的版本都大致以保障外送員權益之條文占比較高的比例而且法案之主管機關為勞動部由本部來組織外送員權益的保障事項"},{"start":21517.407,"end":21538.652,"text":"那至於外送的平台管理 涉及到產業交通機關 路路交通部還有其他目的事業主管機關的權責所以我們建議本法的名稱 可否依依我們民進黨團委員林月琴等18位 委員范雲等16位 委員郭玉琴等16人委員賴瑞榮等18人 委員王正旭等23人 委員黃婕等16人"},{"start":21540.732,"end":21553.586,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案通過那名稱為外送員權益保障及外送拼帶管理法好請各位委員發言沒有意見"},{"start":21574.371,"end":21587.362,"text":"勞動部不好意思本席想要先確認一下因為我們今天因為過去勞動部有布版可是還沒有進來那現在這各位委員提案哪一些是比較跟你們的版本是很接近的你們要不要先大概講一下作為一個對照"},{"start":21590.782,"end":21618.039,"text":"跟各位委員報告我們大概在法案名稱上有幾個考慮因為我們看到有幾個有一些委員的版本他是寫外送從業人員可是其實外送從業人員就會不只是外送員因為你可能包括平台的技術人員可能包括平台的行政人員這都是外送從業人員可是我們在這個法裡面想要最優先來保障的其實是外送員的權益"},{"start":21618.737,"end":21634.863,"text":"所以我前面有些版本大家可以看到是會是寄從業人員權益保障所以這是為什麼我們認為把外送員的權益放到前面因為也包括這是勞動部在做主管的法"},{"start":21635.763,"end":21651.385,"text":"那很多外送平台的管理的层面刚才说可能牵涉到经济部交通部其他的目的世界主管的部会所以我们在建议上面我们的确是建议刚才在讲到林月琴委员范云委员赖瑞龙委员王振旭人黄杰委员跟刘建国委员"},{"start":21651.926,"end":21672.006,"text":"目前看起來大家的法案名稱基本上應該是有寫在現在打在那個螢幕上面就是外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法大概這樣所以我們比較建議用這個用這樣子的名稱包括順序包括就不要再寫從業人員了反而是直接是外送員請問有沒有委員有什麼意見"},{"start":21677.099,"end":21703.333,"text":"如果沒有的話我本席這裡有個意見啦因為本席的提案呢除了從業原本是從業人員當然本席是大家的出發點都是外送員為主嘛但是本席在其實在公聽會過程中還有包括合作商家因為未來現在的確是有一個框架但是可能還沒有足夠的去討論所謂合作商家的部分那本席是在想說是不是有需要把合作商家的這個權益保障也放進去"},{"start":21704.113,"end":21726.062,"text":"好那他稍微長一點可是之所以沒有另外可能就會有人說那怎麼沒有消費者可是因為消費者目前是有消極法是有消費者這是有消極法的部分好所以上次公聽會的時候其實也有很多商家代表那為什麼本席要這樣講呢有一個原因是因為台灣的這些店家餐廳的店家目前被收取的外送費大約是30到35%"},{"start":21727.583,"end":21748.052,"text":"那全球的 我本席看過Uber的財報全球他們CEO自己也講過大概平均其實是15%那當然每一個市場的狀況不同可是我覺得我們是不是也要把這個所謂的合作商家也做一個一個去討論這樣本席提出意見看有沒有其他指教 謝謝"},{"start":21750.709,"end":21774.479,"text":"請那個請副市長委員發言好謝謝主席給我時間我是同意剛剛我們現在打在螢幕上的也就是剛剛深翰部長所說的外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法那剛剛主席有建議說是不是把商家的管理放進來那我是持比較保留的態度大家分享看看第一個就是主跟副然後"},{"start":21776.479,"end":21797.047,"text":"優呃就是先跟後剛剛是因為這是勞動部主管他願意攤起這個責任所以這個法的主體在處理外送員權益保障比較多所以我想這大家有共識外送員權益保障一定是放進來而且我們希望是在優先第二個就是一個新新的經濟型態而在這個新新的經濟型態裡頭"},{"start":21798.988,"end":21823.547,"text":"被需要被輔導協助或是管理的是外送平台是大宗所以也反映在我們條文的相次跟條數的多寡上所以說這個法我們都認同第一個是外送員的權益第二個要納入國家法律的管理協力的是外送平台因為它是新的過去都沒有法律在處理這個"},{"start":21824.347,"end":21841.137,"text":"至於剛剛主席所提到的商家我的看法是因為商家是他是加入這個新的這個外送的新經濟服務的商家但是商家在台灣本身就是相關的法規也好他是就我認為他是比較富"},{"start":21843.038,"end":21857.094,"text":"這是一個新的經濟形式所以新的stakeholder裡頭過去法律秩序比較沒有去關照到的會是外送員本身以及這個新興的平台至於商家就是在我看來是"},{"start":21857.995,"end":21876.585,"text":"可能是會落在條文處理就好而事實上在後續的條文在商家的部分的條文其實是有提到但他不是絕對的主體所以說我是希望說讓這個名稱回到這樣子的主題非常清楚然後優先順序對希望說服大家我是支持這個版本謝謝"},{"start":21878.53,"end":21890.403,"text":"好那請陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席基本上我覺得原來的名詞先就是主席的版本我先放一下就是原來是外送平台管理"},{"start":21892.133,"end":21919.431,"text":"管理 我們是管理他 但是對於這個外送人員他的權益是保障這兩個動詞完全不一樣所以他並不是代表說我們如果先寫了外送平台的管理是把這個是好像優先的要去照顧的 不是永遠就是要保障外送員的部分 所以這個保障是連結在外送員所以當然我可以開放就討論基本上我覺得很多委員會"},{"start":21920.672,"end":21934.868,"text":"包括党团的这个名称原来的意义也是没有违和的没有违和就外送平台管理目的是要管理它即从业人员全益保障法那主席刚刚提到的这个合作商家因为本来这里当中有四方嘛"},{"start":21935.869,"end":21955.995,"text":"當然就是消費者有消費者保護商家那個平台跟外送那如果商家沒有落在裡面其實它也是完全不可忽視的一環有商家才有所謂的delivery才有所謂的外送所以我覺得在商家尤其我們現在有數字Uber Eats在全球它對商家只收取15%的一個手續費"},{"start":21958.756,"end":21981.771,"text":"但是他對台灣的商家 台灣商家大大小小不確然是大企業 賺錢的大企業所以他反而收取了那麼高昂的手續費用所以基本上我也支持如果把合作商家要放就全放目前就是我的觀點是這樣 謝謝好 那先請林月琴委員發言然後等一下請王玉銘委員發言再請羅廷偉委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":21984.284,"end":22004.971,"text":"因為既然主管機關事實上是勞動部那勞動部應該事實上是對於勞工的權益要做保障所以我比較支持現在的版本我的版本也是也就是外送員權益保障先放在前頭然後後邊才是外送平台管理法那誠如剛剛司要委員提的如果商家又要放進去的話這好像似乎"},{"start":22006.191,"end":22024.358,"text":"裡面會提到可是今天主管機關是勞動部的話我是覺得不需要在這邊放進去而且這種新興行業也很挑戰著我們如果未來有增加什麼的話是不是又要在法裡面去做名稱做修正那反而是從外申員還有他跟平台的合作裡面放在這邊就可以了以上那請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":22028.676,"end":22055.936,"text":"好謝謝主席我們今天修這一步法很多外送員他們現在也同步正在看我們開會的情況剛剛我們跟召委還有圖權紀委員我們也先去看這一些我們外送員我們透過這邊告訴你們你們辛苦了我們現在這個部分黨派大家正在修這一步法那原來其實你可以看到最早提出版本的包括"},{"start":22056.696,"end":22081.987,"text":"我們國民黨還有我這邊大家都是先講外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法因為主要是當時提這個修法大家都知道是外送平台它現在有一些可能它獲利很高但是沒有實質回饋給這一些外送員很多權利不對等都是來自於外送平台它本身的問題比較大"},{"start":22083.348,"end":22108.184,"text":"就是我們其實改善了外送平台給他一些適度的規範之後其實外送員的權益就得到保障了所以為什麼當時我們在修法的時候率先提出來的就是都是把外送平台的管理放在前面因為大家都知道我們今天來審這部法最核心的就是整個外送平台的管理他現在是"},{"start":22109.325,"end":22127.398,"text":"政府很难管理的我想部长也知道你之前要找他们沟通其实平台可能他的能量跟声音比你更大声就是你是没有办法去管理他的你没有一步法是没有办法管理他的所以对于外送平台的管理才是这一步法真正的精神"},{"start":22128.058,"end":22144.216,"text":"只要这边的管理相关的制度跟设计都是合理的外送员的权益也就得到保障了所以你可以看到联动到第三条的时候我们在做相关的用词定义很多都是跟平台有关系"},{"start":22145.077,"end":22160.252,"text":"就是這個是這部法真正的精神喔所以不是說因為主管機關是誰就是把那個名稱放在前面而當時我只能說我們最率先提出版本的我們在思考的就是的確我們這部法"},{"start":22160.652,"end":22188.666,"text":"很多是要針對外送平台來訂定相關的管理辦法的這個我必須補充說明那至於大家討論完之後要把外送員權益放在前面或是放在後面我們大家可以客觀的討論但是這步伐真正的我覺得我們要處理跟解決的是外送平台現在權力過大然後我們整個外送員就是處在一個權力不對等跟權益沒有被保障的情況以上說明謝謝"},{"start":22190.216,"end":22219.267,"text":"好謝謝王玉明委員接下來請羅廷偉委員發言我想我的起初的觀念因為我自己也是蠻早就送出自己的版本那我的想法其實跟王玉明委員大致相同但是我覺得主席所提到的這個部分呢也不容忽視那從一開始我們為了外送員的權益來做努力到後面我們都一直了解到其實很多的一些店家到了他的因為外送平台的管理"},{"start":22219.827,"end":22245.499,"text":"导致上他很大的一个权益受损我们也知道是环环相扣的尤其店家如果整体都退出外送平台的话其实对外送员也不一定会有很大的一个受益所以我觉得在这一部法案当中虽然只是单纯的名称在做一个制定但我认为其实在店家的一个权益上我们应该也要重视所以我觉得主席讲的也是有他的道理以上"},{"start":22247.093,"end":22268.46,"text":"还有没有委员有意见那请部长根本说没有其实不管是在党的委员或者是支援党的委员的版本就目前来看包括现在劳动部提出来的预告版如果大家仔细去看条文的话基本上绝大部分的条文都是针对外送员的权益保障"},{"start":22269.72,"end":22283.906,"text":"就是说实话就条文的比例来说的话在平台的部分在商家的部分或什么其实都比外送员的权益的保障的条文数来的少很多"},{"start":22285.166,"end":22309.685,"text":"那按照現在我說不分委員提出來的版本基本上絕大部分的主體基本上是外送員的權益保障那所以剛才說為什麼我們比較贊成是現在在打在螢幕上面的原因是因為我們認為讓最大的比重的部分其實應該是要放在最前面"},{"start":22310.385,"end":22333.839,"text":"那第二个也是因为既然大家挑劳动部作为这一步法的主管那我们其实能够最主要能够主管的基本上是外送员的权益说实话就商家的管理或者是消费者的部分那可能会是交通部或者是经济部在做管理所以一来是因为劳动部主管二来真的是几乎所有的版本"},{"start":22334.739,"end":22359.807,"text":"最大比例的条文是在外送人权益的部分基于这两个理由我们还是比较希望是说在法案名称上面可以让他有个名实相符所以以外送人权益保障及外送平台管理法那我们也会谈到外送平台管理这里面也会外送平台管理所以不管是对消费者的部分或者是对商家的部分基本上都可以收纳在这个外送平台管理的概念里面但是让这个法案"},{"start":22360.807,"end":22389.75,"text":"呃呈現最多或主管管理密度最高的部分成為名稱裡面的最優最最低一個我覺得這其實是相對是比較適切的好呃請劉建國委員發言哎謝主席哦呃所有人講的各個面向都有道理啦哦啊其實其實一個法案的的制定基本上呃我們可以可以兼顧到通通把它包進來那最好不過"},{"start":22391.27,"end":22413.515,"text":"應該大家也是朝向這個目標不過我是要提醒如果今天要把外送平台放在前面那講真的可能我們是要到經濟委員會去討論反而不是在這個地方討論會變成這樣這個不是在大家在辯論這種事情因為你要勞動部來做這個主管基本上勞動部還是對人"},{"start":22414.395,"end":22440.568,"text":"他不可能是對平台所以這個有一個先後順序啦我是讓大家可以夠理解當然要整個把所有剛剛主席特別提到的把商家面向都納在進來這裡面這個都OK我覺得這個都必須要去兼顧不過法案名稱可能讓各位再思考一下如果一定要把外送平台放在前面真的我們可能要跑到經濟委員會去審查請各位思考一下啦好不好提醒大家謝謝"},{"start":22444.682,"end":22470.939,"text":"還有沒有委員有其他不同的想法謝謝 謝謝我們王一鳴這個委員對我的提醒我順便跟議事部講一下我的法案就是以第二個版本出來16人那一個16人那一個 17人那一個我已經自動閹割放棄 好 謝謝我16個就好 16人那一個"},{"start":22475.788,"end":22492.147,"text":"其實那本席也表達一下再次表達補充一下我的意見啦我覺得當然這個勞動部為主管機關然後也這個法之所以會垂身跟外送員有最大的關係但條文裡面也不乏所謂的商家還有外送平台的管理以及消費者其實都有提到齁"},{"start":22492.828,"end":22512.545,"text":"那當然如果你說只用勞動部的角度來說衍生這個法的話你可能會覺得外送員要放在前面可是其實我相信這個勞動部在一直在做這個法的時候也一直不斷的在權衡包含產業發展包含外送員的權益包含店家包含消費者"},{"start":22513.226,"end":22531.695,"text":"好那我認為說如果只因為名職的改變就認為不是勞動部在主責的話我覺得可能會把這個法想得比較小一點我的想法再來就是說因為外送員他可以有很多很多種型態不見得是在uber下面嘛那如果今天我們這個法出來的主體是因為這種外送平台出來"},{"start":22532.395,"end":22558.682,"text":"然後他下面有很多的外送員衍生的相關問題所以我的想法反而是會不會是應該是最上位的整個母體最大宗應該是以外送平台管理為一個主體下面去拆分我覺得這樣子是不是會對於這樣的產業或者是相關的關係利害關係的人未來在思考的時候會更加全面更加的平衡這是我的思考的方向也供大家參考"},{"start":22559.702,"end":22587.37,"text":"那先請這個吳思耀委員發言然後請這個陳培雲委員發言再請范雲委員發言謝謝那主席我具體的建議我個人意見還是希望就是打在螢幕上的這樣子的法案名稱那或許大家也如果在名稱上我們先保留也沒有關係因為我們看了條文之後把條文順了之後其實有助於與會委員更理解我們在條文的內容含括的"},{"start":22588.57,"end":22601.038,"text":"整個面向然後回頭再來看這個名稱的集大成怎麼放比較好那如同我剛剛所主張的在整個法案的條文內容上的"},{"start":22602.581,"end":22620.646,"text":"琢磨确实是外送员权益保障是最多的那第二个是外送平台的相关的管理辅导所以我觉得如果这样有助于大家理解跟最后归纳出最好的版本是我们就先保留然后顺着条文回来可以再来共同决定谢谢"},{"start":22621.311,"end":22650.123,"text":"好 謝謝吳思耀委員請陳培委員發言好 謝謝主席其實民進黨團的版本其實我覺得大家必須要實話實說就是因為有很多外送員權益在這幾年當中其實剛開始所有在野黨委員喊出來的也都是為了確保外送員的權益保障所以大家開始有這個積極的討論那我們現在也很開心看到非常多委員都有提案而且大部分的委員提案其實也都把重點放在外送權益保障"},{"start":22650.643,"end":22672.214,"text":"所以我也比較支持現在電視機上這個螢幕的寫法就是外送人權益保障放在前面然後因著要保障這些外送人權益所以我們對於外送平台有相關的管理跟協調的機制所以把後面這個放進來那我也認為如果今天在名稱上大家就有這麼多起義其實也許可以保留送到我們後續之後再討論喔謝謝好謝謝 請范委員發言"},{"start":22677.97,"end":22701.623,"text":"那我非常支持剛剛從劉建國到吳思瑤到陳培元委員的觀點今天為什麼我們會坐在這邊有這個專法那其實就是因為外送員的權益缺乏保障嘛那從那個2020年開始當時我就一起跟外送員朋友他們還在籌備工會的時候談到他們的工作"},{"start":22703.564,"end":22722.316,"text":"風險職業安全2021年他們遇到演算法減薪的時候當時勞動部還有請外送員代表一起坐下來討論2022年我去找交通部因為他們在颱風天還必須要外送是一個蠻嚴重的職業安全跟交通安全的問題交通部訂出了機車外送安全指引"},{"start":22723.296,"end":22737.005,"text":"後來2023年外送平台大砍薪他們又遇到薪資不保的問題2024年我當時有用預算案要勞動部嚴寧薪資要透明化所以一開始就不是因為外送平台這個產業出現了問題而是因為他們的勞動權益不保"},{"start":22742.248,"end":22766.818,"text":"所以今天如果我們關心產業為什麼會關心他的管理核心是在外送員的權益那勞動部是主管也是因為剛剛講的就是就是外送員的權益本來就應該放在前面所以我不知道剛剛為什麼會出現抱歉因為我剛剛比較晚到有另外一個講法這個名稱不要把就是相關的勞動權益放在前面以上好那請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":22772.847,"end":22788.748,"text":"好 謝謝主席就是我想在法案名稱的部分因為我們現在有很多的版本那我必須要說的是剛才主席所提到的因為這個還有合作商家權益我覺得這也非常重要"},{"start":22789.549,"end":22805.84,"text":"其實早在本會期之前事實上從去年開始我們就已經有很多的委員提出版本我們其實重點都是一樣第一個就是外送平台的管理另外一個就是從業人員的權益保障"},{"start":22810.083,"end":22836.324,"text":"其實都是這兩個主要的項目那現在我覺得好像爭執老半天只是哪一個放在前面而已只是放在哪一個前面而已那我也必須講我可以感覺得到就是這個民進黨團或民進黨籍的委員可能因為他們是這個會期才送出這個法案因為事實上真的遠遠落後我們很多其他委員的這個法案的進度"},{"start":22836.804,"end":22863.251,"text":"但是基本上大家都不脫於這兩個那個大的領域的相關的規範跟保障所以我個人還是會認為就是說我們事實上之前這麼多委員所提到的外送平台管理及從業人員的權益保障法我覺得這已經完全涵蓋我們這一次的修法的這個制定這個法律的精神我覺得並不需要我們今天一定要排排看"},{"start":22864.371,"end":22881.3,"text":"總是有一個先來後到的一個順序那基本上如果待會要保留我覺得我想大家也應該大部分會可以支持但是我覺得去爭議這個東西一定要後來的就一定要要用這個名稱我個人覺得這樣的邏輯不同好謝謝好謝謝好請勞動部長補充"},{"start":22889.212,"end":22915.182,"text":"其实想跟各位说明其实数位平台有很多种可是为什么很多国家特别会对外送平台来立法其实一个很重要的原因都是在于外送员的权益的问题所以我们在很多数位平台的立法上面比较会单独把它拿出来的是因为外送平台的权益其实这件事情在各国都是我跟各位举几个例子"},{"start":22915.922,"end":22933.213,"text":"西班牙的西班牙的这个外送的专法他的名字叫做歧视法Rider西班牙的叫歧视法新加坡的外送专法他叫做平台工作者法案"},{"start":22935.114,"end":22963.142,"text":"那義大利的相關的專法它是寫在就業法裡面他們是放在它的就業法裡面我要跟各位說的意思是說其實我們並不是每一種數位平台都讓它有一個專法可是為什麼外送平台會需要一個專法其實最大的驅動的力量其實是來自於外送員的權益在這裡面其實大家覺得會需要做更進一步的規範所以如果你從國際的例子上看到來說的話基本上大家在訂定法案的名稱上面或它的主體性來說"},{"start":22964.042,"end":22985.451,"text":"的确都是以外送员的权益作为最优先的摆放这不是只是台湾是这样而已刚才讲西班牙新加坡几个国际的法院我想大家如果有研究我们国际上的法律的话都看到这个状况所以我们还是觉得说外送人权益保障放在前面还是真的是比较适切这不是只有台湾这样做而已"},{"start":22989.693,"end":22998.045,"text":"好這個我想隨著後面的討論我們可以再回來看所謂的名稱到底有沒有合適那我覺得這一條我們先保留到第二輪討論"},{"start":23003.492,"end":23020.75,"text":"接下來是這個總則的部分有這個章次有分第一章總則那現在有這個有分章的大概是有劉建國委員以及本席的版本那這個部分大家有沒有什麼有沒有什麼意見請先請勞動部說明"},{"start":23025.027,"end":23047.491,"text":"主席委員有關於第一章總則就是為了本法各條文的保障跟規管可以對象更明確所以我們在這也是建議法案中應該區分章節然後以總則為第一章然後建議依委員廖偉強等25人委員劉建國等16人提案來通過那有沒有委員有意見好沒有意見的話就"},{"start":23052.878,"end":23079.636,"text":"好那這個部分就依照這個劉建國召委以及廖偉祥委員的版本通過那接下來從第一條開始那個萬美玲委員發言還有再請黃建豪委員發言再請吳思耀委員發言"},{"start":23081.798,"end":23106.09,"text":"謝謝主席我們第一條是這個立法議旨那當然我們這次制定專法最主要的目的就是要保障我們的外送員的權益為主那但是本席認為消費者的這個保障在這個專法裡頭也相對的重要那對於消費者而言目前外送平台不管是收取的服務費運費手續費等相關費用我們看起來都沒有清楚完整的揭露"},{"start":23106.69,"end":23126.96,"text":"那如果因故要取消訂單相關的退費機制等等也沒有公開透明所以消費者的權益在這當中其實也沒有辦法受到保障所以在本席的提案當中我們對於消費者的保障包括外送平台應該在外送平台介面標示清楚商品價格服務費運費手續費及其他相關費用的金額"},{"start":23127.62,"end":23144.338,"text":"那麼第二個部分就是外送平台應該來制定消費者收取這個取消訂單的時候的退費機制還有商品交付遲延的一些處理方式交付的商品跟訂單不符或者有瑕疵損壞退費或賠償的措施我就要展明清楚"},{"start":23144.858,"end":23172.498,"text":"所以呢基於以上的規範我們要在這部這個法當中去保障外送員但是也要同時可以保障消費者所以本席認為在第一條的部分那本席的提案是為管理外送平台業者保障外送員及本席這邊多一個消費者之權益來制定本法那當然我看到這個主席還有一些委員裡面他也有寫到合作廠商那至於這個部分的話就尊重等一下大家的討論"},{"start":23173.419,"end":23196.89,"text":"那以上謝謝好謝謝那請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝主席我想今天這個第一條非常的重要我想第一條又涉及到這個法到底要做什麼事情要包含第一條我自己的版本是為管理外送平台業者然後保障外送人權因為其實今天大家會坐在這邊討論最大的問題就是因為我們發現"},{"start":23198.211,"end":23227.21,"text":"外送平台業者很難管理所以才會有這個法定的出現所以包含說後面包含剛剛關偉霖委員提到了保障消費者權益還有我們之前提到說這個包含說要訂定所謂的基本費理繩費等待費樓繩費等等的這個各種費用的問題也是涉及到外送平台業者他怎麼去訂定相關的標準然後相關的這個資金的機制怎麼樣分潤給所謂外送員所以核心問題還是在外送平台外送平台如果"},{"start":23227.87,"end":23247.57,"text":"没问题了当然我想外送人的保障就没问题了所以这就是为什么一开始刚刚上一轮在讨论的这个法案名称大家会在争论说到底是外送平台比较重要还是要把外送人放在前面比较重要那在我的逻辑里面我当然觉得说因为今天会讨论这一切的源起就是因为外送平台业者过去这些年的表现或这段时间的状况"},{"start":23248.21,"end":23268.554,"text":"讓大家覺得不可信任才需要去訂相關法律去管理所以在這個法條的名稱上面我們還是希望說我是主張說還是要以為管理外送平台業者為主然後來保障我們外送人的權益以上謝謝好謝謝黃江豪委員那請吳思亞委員發言然後再請陳清惠委員發言還有徐宇貞委員發言還有范雲委員"},{"start":23271.057,"end":23299.017,"text":"還有羅廷惠委員 等一下好 謝謝主席你先的嗎 好 請好 可以發言了嗎 蕾欣 妳先第一條的部分雖然民進黨團也有我們的版本那民進黨的諸多委員也有版本但我們共同我們又在meeting過我們就同意以劉建國委員召委的16人的提案來做討論的一個參照那我順著這個邏輯來說明第一條呢 多數的委員提案是只有第一項"},{"start":23299.938,"end":23323.916,"text":"所以第一項就是在說明本法的目的是保障哪些stakeholders那第一項的部分我先來論述我們也是依附我們剛剛在討論這個法案名稱的這個邏輯這個主婦關係重點的部分先來處理所以我們的四個stakeholder我們都放進來它的順序分別是保障外送員權益管理外送平台業者維護消費者"},{"start":23326.218,"end":23348.778,"text":"及合作商家权益所以四个Stakeholders我们都会放在第一条的第一项里头那我们的优先顺序如我刚刚所说明我们是认为这个法的这个主体跟课题本身我们有一些排序那第二项呢要特别说明因为外送平台的业者跟外送员之间的劳务关系是很多元的"},{"start":23349.258,"end":23376.549,"text":"所以他的契約關係我們在第二項又更細緻的來針對如果是未具雇傭關係的就是用本法那如果是有雇傭關係的但是呢有一些新的更進步的譬如說服務契約投保商業保險職災保險教育訓練交通安全違規等等怎麼處理這個是大家認為要在這個法裡頭新增的"},{"start":23376.969,"end":23405.509,"text":"就已有雇佣关系的排除这些新兴的东西之外那适用原来的劳动法律的秩序譬如说就适用劳基法职安法等等所以说民进党跟建国委员召委的版本的第二项很清楚的说明这个法律在适用上哪些是适用本法哪些是适用原本劳动部就在管理的这些法规所以我认为要有这个第二项的说明"},{"start":23406.389,"end":23431.324,"text":"适用的法规跟排除的法律这非常重要所以多数的委员是指偏重第一项那我们是非常强烈的建议参照建国召委的跟民进党团的第二项来做第一条文因为这非常重要一般的立法例也应当会在第一条除了本法制定的目的规范的对象之外会加注这个法律的适用跟例外的状况供大家参考"},{"start":23436.044,"end":23456.565,"text":"那接下來我不好意思接下來是請陳金輝委員我這邊是想請教勞動部我們這一條規定另訂僱傭契約者回歸勞基法但實務上我們是看到很多平台業者是常常透過契約的形式來規避僱傭的認定那我會希望等一下勞動部再說明"},{"start":23458.186,"end":23477.774,"text":"如果平台是利用演算法進行實質指揮監督卻簽署承攬契約本法通過以後勞動部要怎麼判定這可能跟剛剛有點類似那會不會發生業者主張適用專法卻阻卻了勞工主張勞基法權益的毛定效應這是我的疑問謝謝謝謝因為還有委員你要一次回答還是你要先回應好OK那先請勞動部長回應"},{"start":23487.132,"end":23500.692,"text":"其实第一条的第二项是关键其实应该是说的确我们现在看到有一些国家他有出现他是明摆着是雇佣关系的外送平台"},{"start":23501.894,"end":23525.076,"text":"那我跟各位说明一下这个法为什么在过去他其实不是一件那么容易去做规划的法案因为如果整体的劳动法规他基本上两个架构一个是雇佣关系一个是承揽那的确在很多国家把会把外送平台的这个形态会视为是一个比较是中间的形态他不是一个传统的雇佣也不是一个传统的承揽"},{"start":23525.857,"end":23538.134,"text":"但的确比方我们看到在欧盟是有看到他打着我就是雇佣关系的平台所以如果他是雇佣关系平台的话我们认为其实这个法案里面有蛮多的条文就不适合他"},{"start":23539.574,"end":23567.755,"text":"这个法的条文我们这次法里面设计的很多条文他处理的特别是针对这种他非传统雇佣也非传统承揽的形态所以如果今天出现了一家他跟你说我就是雇佣关系我就是聘雇外送人是雇佣关系的话那除了刚才在讲到的第第4条第5项第10条第11条第25条以外照理来说其他的只要是相关的法规都应该回到劳基法去处理"},{"start":23570.253,"end":23596.463,"text":"都会回到劳基法去处理这个里面他是一个也防止未来因为我们有点难去保证未来在台湾只会有两家或三家或只有现在眼前的外送平台有可能会有新的的确看到有一些新创他是用雇佣关系为目的在其他国家的话那他的适用法规他的这个是法性就要在这里面做出区分所以第二项主要处理的问题是这个部分"},{"start":23596.883,"end":23619.001,"text":"那這件事情非常非常重要因為如果不區分的話以後新的一家假設他是用雇傭關係的話他的司法性會非常非常亂那他又要適用勞基法要適用這個裡面會有很多司法性會衝突那所以我們比較建議用劉建國委員的版本的原因是因為他在這個第二項就是要來處理這個他在勞動關係上面的定性跟他適用法規的問題好那接下來換徐毅臻委員發言"},{"start":23625.845,"end":23646.032,"text":"我想有關第一條就是我們立法的目的也是代表了就是本法的一個立法核心的宗旨那因為外送平台的業者的他的經營模式是很特殊而且外送員的人數也眾多所以為了有效管理外送平台業者並確實的保障外送員的相關權益所以特別制定這個專法"},{"start":23646.992,"end":23673.932,"text":"但是因為在過去外送員常常被視為一般的承攬人導致在整個勞資的爭議或職業災害的時候缺乏專門的法律依據來主張權益所以本法確定之後呢特別法由於普通法的原則意即在本法有規定的範圍內優先適用本法若本法未規定者則回歸其他適用的相關法律如民法消費者保護法的規定這也宣告的國家對於外送產業不再放任自留"},{"start":23674.472,"end":23702.07,"text":"而是進入了法制化管理的時代不但可以這個管理這個外送平台也確保了保障外送員的一個權益這也讓我們一直爭議多時的包括說外送員的工作就有工時零碎勞僱關係不明確還有高度依賴演算法管理等特性而針對這個到底是承攬還是僱傭相關的一個關係呢也可以利用這樣的一個法律來去訂定那也讓外送員的這個工作處境能夠獲得保障謝謝"},{"start":23704.008,"end":23707.141,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請范雲委員發言"},{"start":23709.419,"end":23735.458,"text":"我的部分就是我的版本雖然沒有寫到維護消費者及合作商家的權益但是我看一下我們的條文的確是有一些會觸及到這個部分所以我也支持劉建國委員的這個版本就是我們先講就是外送員的權益再講管理外送平台業者再來是維護消費者及合作商家權益那就目標清楚外送員權益還是最優先"},{"start":23736.218,"end":23750.214,"text":"那另外就是把就是雇佣關係像剛剛洪部長所講的一樣具體的寫出來所以我想目前看起來就是劉建國委員的那個低調非常的完整好支持好接下來還有哪一位委員這個羅廷偉委員發言謝謝"},{"start":23757.591,"end":23775.429,"text":"好簡單說明那我個人認為趙偉廖偉強委員的版本也是非常的明定清楚所以這部分我覺得你的版本還不錯以你的為主謝謝羅廷輝委員那請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":23781.704,"end":23798.061,"text":"我看到大家版本大概都只是在特別去強調保障外送員權益跟管理外送平台那當然有些事實上像劉建偉有特別還是提到那個回復消費者跟合作商家的一個權益可是我認為"},{"start":23799.202,"end":23823.53,"text":"最終目標今天會有外送尤其是運送食物所以我的版本呢是寫的期待事實上是應該更高的角度上來看的話是應該是有促進國民消費生活安全還有提升貨品供應品質的目的啦所以我認為應該在前面是不是應該加入這一個會比較完備以上請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":23829.13,"end":23843.497,"text":"我想請問一下就是這個因為我覺得剛才剛才我們部長洪部長沒有很很具體的回答剛才陳金輝委員的問題如果採取劉建國委員的提案"},{"start":23844.657,"end":23858.833,"text":"會不會形成對於有僱傭就是他說是有僱傭關係的如果在這個法裡面其實對於我們的外送員的保障比較完善的地方"},{"start":23859.454,"end":23877.513,"text":"但是在這邊非常確定的就是說你就是適用第4條第5項第4條及第25條之外其他就是按照現在的相關牢記法等等所以我擔心的是有沒有可能會成為一個問題就是說原來我們這個法有一些他是可以照顧到所有"},{"start":23878.154,"end":23902.188,"text":"給更多外送員保障的部分但是因為這第二條條文的這樣的一個定法使得如果是僱傭關係的他反而不能夠去適用會不會有這樣的一個問題因為我們希望的是這個法律這個法律只要對我們從業人員有好處的不管你是僱傭關係非僱傭關係承攬關係都能夠適用這才是我們的初衷對不對"},{"start":23907.811,"end":23933.77,"text":"所以这个部分可不可以更具体的来跟我们来解释一下好跟跟王委员说明其实这是在劳动关系里面的核心其实他在劳动关系的定位会牵涉到比方说平台跟外送员之间的关系会多么的弹性我举例来说今天如果平台跟外送员之间是雇佣关系的话那外送员就是不能聚单的"},{"start":23936.365,"end":23945.354,"text":"平台跟外送員之間的指揮關係就會更明確而且更強制其實就沒有辦法我們就不應該用法律來讓外送員有據單的權利"},{"start":23948.615,"end":23966.173,"text":"但是我们现在在很多的条文里面是让外送员保障他有聚单的权利而不会被不利对待所以我们现在是在处理一个中间的关系出来今天如果我把他定位成雇佣关系的话可是我条文里面假认又要再让他有聚单权利这就是矛盾的事情"},{"start":23967.862,"end":23983,"text":"這就是矛盾的事情這也是為什麼如果今天他被認知為僱傭關係的話裡面就有些條文就不適合因為他就是會給外送人跟平台之間的彈性的部分那個彈性的部分就要把它給縮減不然這個彈性跟僱傭關係之間的強制就會衝突"},{"start":23990.024,"end":23996.891,"text":"這就是在處理那個定性性質的部分的確現在很多的外送員是比較不一定他是希望變成是雇傭關係的"},{"start":23998.843,"end":24027.075,"text":"所以也因為他不希望成為雇傭關係所以我們才要給他巨擔的權利比方說離線的權利不然他要更強制的接受平台的強制指揮你這部分我可以理解所以我才說他這個第二條裡面他是用他是很明確的說你可以適用第四條第五項第四條叫888這個都是很明確的之外其他你就全部都按照目前現有的勞基法及相關的規定所以我覺得你們有沒有去檢視過"},{"start":24028.556,"end":24053.642,"text":"我跟委員說你剛才講的我可以接受但是有沒有檢視過有沒有說我們這邊有更好的一個條件然後被讓他們給排除在外我跟委員說明現在我們說適用的那些條件裡面基本上是哪些部分是包括這個服務契約的收支那職業災害通報外送人教育訓練等等等就是在這些事情以外他就回到勞基法"},{"start":24055.134,"end":24084.413,"text":"就回到勞基法但是勞基法有勞基法的規範但是如果進入勞基法的規範的話它那個彈性就會大大的縮減對所以這個第二項就是在處理這個問題第一條的第二項就是在處理勞動關係上面它適用哪些每一種勞動關係它會有它適用的它會有它適用的條文跟法效你只要保證就好因為我們這個全部都會有記錄下來的好不好"},{"start":24085.393,"end":24105.471,"text":"好谢谢陈培余委员发言好我其实本来刚刚是想要回应王洪威委的提问不过因为刚刚那个部长已经说明的非常清楚确实我们现在看到世界各国不管是雇佣关系承担关系或是非传统的这种二元性的关系本来就有很多是过往的法规所没有办法解决的"},{"start":24105.831,"end":24128.371,"text":"所以回過頭來看為了保障外送員的權益而開始討論這個法案版本我們開始把所謂平台放進來消費者放進來合作商家都放進來所以開始來討論所以確實在相關的關係上確實是需要多一些空間跟想像的那我相信目前在劉建國委員這個16人提案的版本裡面"},{"start":24129.451,"end":24146.306,"text":"應該把各式各樣現在外送員所擔心的或者是外送平台所擔心的商家所擔心消費者所擔心的都已經算進去所以很感謝部長剛剛說明關於契約的部分教育訓練的部分災害通報的部分用這個辦法其他我們就回到"},{"start":24147.406,"end":24170.659,"text":"勞動基準法相關規範裡面我認為這個做法應該是最適切的所以民進黨團這邊也支持劉建國委員等16人提案的這個版本我要再強調是16人不是17人這個版本喔謝謝還有委員要發言嗎沒有的話我要發言喔好那請王宏威委員發言沒有沒有我剛才發言過我剛才講錯了那個王育民委員你們兩個認錯了嗎你看連韋翔都認錯了"},{"start":24176.434,"end":24194.21,"text":"韋翔召委我要稱讚一下那個勞動部你們的那個有一個建議條文的說明寫得非常好這在第三頁第三頁你們的建議條文然後建議條文說明裡面這個第二項裡面呢"},{"start":24194.77,"end":24217.65,"text":"你说为因应外送平台产业之发展横评外送员消费者合作商家与外送平台业者兼之各方权利义务关系以保障外送员消费者及合作商家权益并兼顾外送平台产业健全发展特制定本法这段文字写得太棒了"},{"start":24218.17,"end":24229.255,"text":"我覺得這段文字應該放在第一條的立法說明母法裡面對不對大家都贊成真的寫得太好這是勞動部寫的還是我們未還的工作勞動部寫的這個要給寫出這段文字的工作同仁嘉獎真的"},{"start":24234.557,"end":24252.638,"text":"我覺得這個就解決了剛剛大家的爭議事實上它回到了為什麼剛剛我們從前面的名稱說是從外送平台的管理開始它在這一段的說明裡面的確整個我們也是因應外送平台產業的發展我們要橫平這些關係所以制定本法"},{"start":24253.218,"end":24278.364,"text":"這段文字寫得太棒了 部長你要嘉獎這位人員寫得太好了很專業我覺得這個就是立法說明非常好啊是不是各位委員同仁大家讚不讚我覺得寫得太棒了等一下我要講一下主席謝謝我等一下王玉敏委員講這段真的寫得太好了我就把這整個立法的原址然後所有涵蓋的範圍這個立法說明寫得太讚了一百分啦一百分"},{"start":24279.795,"end":24295.073,"text":"好 謝謝王玉銘委員這個是羅廷惟委員看到這一段文字他跟我講然後要我特別發言告訴大家的他率先看到這段文字 對 謝謝好 那請陳培余委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":24295.836,"end":24311.272,"text":"我想在野黨委員難得肯定行政機關我們當然感謝在野黨委員可是我們要說因為剛剛那個名稱的部分已經保留是不是就可以不用再講名稱了那至於因著外送員還是因為平台的發展或者是所謂平台產業這件事情"},{"start":24312.799,"end":24339.637,"text":"我們要說再次強調大家都非常清楚剛剛還有委員說先來後到我們如果去看所有先來後到所謂先來的版本裡面大部分都只有提到外送員的權益是後來劉建國委員的版本還有民進黨黨團的版本我們把所謂的平台商家消費者多都放進去了所以既然已經保留的我們是不是就之後再討論了不要再拉回來以上謝謝"},{"start":24340.987,"end":24364.665,"text":"好請王振旭委員發言不是我嗎你剛不是點我了他再換你振旭委員再換你不好意思謝謝主席第一次發言針對剛剛王立民委員所提到有關於在很稱讚這一段文字我也覺得這段文字真的寫得非常好可是不是要把它放到"},{"start":24366.146,"end":24385.338,"text":"這個母法條文裡面我是覺得可能還是可以再商榷因為我們知道事實上如果依照劉建國委員等16人的提案裡面事實上他第一條就是寫的相對比較簡潔就是為了要保障外送員權益管理外送員平台者"},{"start":24386.739,"end":24403.741,"text":"維護消費者及合作商家權益特制定本法特制定本法那這個相當簡潔可是在立法說明裡面我們就可以把那一段文字直接放在立法說明這樣是不是就能夠相輔相成而且不會讓這個內容又重複以上"},{"start":24405.275,"end":24432.549,"text":"請羅廷偉委員發言主席不好意思我是覺得說剛好我們兩邊分併座啦是不是各點一位不要就是只看那一邊啦好好不好意思不好意思 抱歉抱歉這樣公平嘛好不好沒問題那回應一下這個品瑜 培瑜委員對不起對不起對不起培瑜 我剛才問他們對不起對不起"},{"start":24433.82,"end":24461.432,"text":"這不是重點這不是重點對不起對不起培育委員第一條其實是保留我們都知道但是就是說剛剛發現這段文字我覺得它有關係到就是我們在第一條對不起我是說名稱名稱我們第一個條討論到的是名稱保留以後呢為什麼我們又要再講這一段因為名稱就關係到現在我們在訂的第一條第一項第二項"},{"start":24462.092,"end":24486.75,"text":"所以也在關係到我們現在正在審的這個第一條嘛所以我要拜託的是說這個立法的建議條文說明勞動部已經寫這麼清楚我覺得這個很重要以這個為基準點我們開始再反推到名稱也就是第一條第一項第二項開始要來討論的時候我覺得還是廖偉祥委員那邊寫的會更加明確其實坦白講劉建國委員寫的也不錯這個我"},{"start":24489.721,"end":24505.992,"text":"很好很好很好大家加油一起為他們加油好我想要補充一下這個剛剛大家都一直稱讚這個建議條文說明行政部門的建議條文說明那當然名稱已經保留可是我想要補充一下我自己的版本在第一條的第二項大家可以看一下前面一段話"},{"start":24507.333,"end":24522.646,"text":"這是非常符合行政院的說明因為你們說要這個橫評外送員消費者合作商家外送平台各方權益嘛那我在想這條文是不是要加入我這一段因為我的第二項的第一條的第二項前面有寫到"},{"start":24523.447,"end":24541.006,"text":"外送員合作商家消費者之權益保障及外送平台業者之管理依本法之規定那本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定這也就是我前面說的消費者的話可能就是消極法那這個部分我就是把它說明的比較具體把它放進去"},{"start":24541.707,"end":24560.196,"text":"然後後面當然就跟劉建國委員的事差不多就是說有關於這個外送員的權益的部分好那我我希望說這段是不是如果大家覺得沒有意見的話大家可以看一下因為這個就是等於把大家想要的這個橫平性再加一句話進去好那這樣子整合起來就是一個比較完善的好沒關係請陳培語委員發言"},{"start":24564.963,"end":24580.175,"text":"我剛想說你不要再叫錯名字了好了那個主席我懂你的意思你的意思是說你覺得你的第一條寫超級無敵好但是這不是文字的問題喔如果你用你這個寫法來看對照劉建國委員的寫法因為"},{"start":24580.655,"end":24600.254,"text":"第一條要談的是以誰的權力為主體去發散討論這個適用的範圍跟內容可是如果你要以外送平台業者那所有外送員的這些相關權益跟外送平台之間的關係就會回到王宏威委員剛剛好心提醒深漢部長說所謂這個僱傭關係還是承攬關係還是非傳統的這個二元對立的關係"},{"start":24605.339,"end":24618.092,"text":"是不一樣的所以不是只是因為加入這個文字而是他整體在規範內容就會不一樣所以拜託如果大家在主席版本跟劉建國文版本還是有差異那我是不是就建議保留謝謝"},{"start":24619.915,"end":24645.389,"text":"我這裡再補充一下然後我請那個我們部長回應喔我也是想要聽勞動部的意見喔因為其實我這邊後面第二項的後面跟劉建國委員應該是差不多那我只是在第二項的前面加入了其他的利害關係人如果在本法沒有規定到的要適用其他的法規因為我發現大家有漏了這一點我覺得他這個完整性可能跟培育委員的理解有點不一樣但是也請我們的部長請說明一下"},{"start":24648.079,"end":24676.678,"text":"等一下 對不起 主席我都還沒有講話對 我剛剛沒有看到你舉手 不好意思我有舉手好 那請劉建國召委提醒主席品瑜已經不在很久了請部長也一併說明因為剛剛我聽廖召偉這麼講基本上我還是期待第一條是不是有機會大家趕快整合讓它有一個共識不然就會變成第一條沒有共識就比爸爸後面會議再保下去"},{"start":24677.618,"end":24698.908,"text":"那當然在第一條的第一項裡面其實還是有那個主婦的問題那第二個當然我也尊重廖召偉要把那個商家放棄沒有意見但第二項裡面有一點差異就除適用第四條第五項這個應該是這樣第十條及我這邊是第十條及第21條至25條那廖召偉的部分是第12條14條22條"},{"start":24705.351,"end":24731.401,"text":"所以我請部長就一併來說明一下這兩條條文抄議在什麼地方謝謝請部長我其實從第一項現在才討論第一條嘛從第一項再 我再回應是第一個我認為我們在這裡面的外送員應該本法裡面用的外送員都可以精準就是直接講外送員其實不用講外送從業人員"},{"start":24732.842,"end":24753.84,"text":"因为外送从业人员真的都会溢出外送员的范围比方说平台的行政工作者平台的工程师那个其实不他是外送从业人员可是他不是我们目标的外送员我觉得都可以把从业人员用以外送员来更精准的来去使用了"},{"start":24754.58,"end":24781.422,"text":"然后我觉得后面要外送平台管理外送平台或者是维护消费者可是我们很希望尤其是这是劳动部主管我们希望把保障外送员权益可以放在第一个因为我觉得这是最优先的事情所以让保障外送员权益可以放在第一个那后面要再加上管理外送平台业者维护消费者或者合作商家等等的权益这部分我们意见都不大这是在第一项的部分"},{"start":24782.162,"end":24797.857,"text":"那第二项的我也想说明一下就是说因为按照刚刚料源的版本的话是把这个合作商家跟消费者跟权益保障的部分就是本法未规定的部分适用其他法规"},{"start":24798.337,"end":24815.029,"text":"因为这部分其实主不那么是劳动部主管我认为这部分就是关于干商合作商家跟消费者的部分可能要问一下交通部或经济部就是说如果是这样写的话在他们管理消费在处理消费者的关系跟平台关系上面"},{"start":24816.13,"end":24831.063,"text":"商家官商家關係跟消費者的關係上面他們OK因為就我們主要勞動部是處理平台跟外送員之間的關係上我們認為這樣寫是我們就留言的版本的寫法是OK的對"},{"start":24833.12,"end":24859.022,"text":"好 那個 那是不是請其他部會有沒有針對本席剛剛說的保障外送援為優先是這個法的出發點沒有 我相信在場各位各黨派或者行政部門沒有任何人有異議可是其實也可以看到行政部門的相關的版本也都有提到其他利害關係人那是不是可以請不管是經濟部或交通部或者是這個相關的部會有沒有"},{"start":24859.682,"end":24887.303,"text":"有沒有意見我們是不是可以把本席剛剛所謂提到的有關於外送員合作商家消費者之權益保障以及外送平台業者依本法之規定那本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定我想其實這個應該是沒有跟你們後面這個有關於勞僱關係的這個僱傭關係應該是類似的概念我再補充對不起我剛忘講一點因為劉委員的版本我們就一個是他是寫具有僱傭關係"},{"start":24889.964,"end":24908.574,"text":"料園的版本是写订定雇佣关系那我们认为具有的范围会比较大只要你有具有雇佣关系就直接是用劳基法不用到订定最具有的范围比订定来的大"},{"start":24911.154,"end":24939.546,"text":"這具有的部分我覺得沒有問題對就是所以我說就具有跟另定的部分來講我們比較是主張還是用具有那個部分我們沒有問題喔那我現在的意思還是前面說的其他的利害關係人在這一條沒有提到的要不要依照本席的意見把它加進去同意陳惠義加入召委的意見他剛剛有回應了他剛剛說因為他不管其他的他要請其他部會討那個發表意見有有有"},{"start":24941.331,"end":24953.56,"text":"我們是不是可以請這個經濟部或者是消費者保護處如果你們覺得這加進去是可行的沒有意見就說沒有意見如果有意見可以說明沒關係還有我們交通部交通部的司長胡司長"},{"start":24960.758,"end":24982.478,"text":"跟委員報告那其實我們是建議啦就是可以依照那個劉建國委員的一個提案就是說這個部分其實該規定的部分都已經有相關的一個規範了那至於說是不是把那個那個召委的意見併入那我們是尊重那個委員會的討論"},{"start":24984.133,"end":24994.124,"text":"所以你們是尊重說病入對不對沒有病入沒有意見是不是這樣子好那其他的部類還是委員要發言那請徐宇貞委員再請羅廷惟委員"},{"start":24994.83,"end":25022.857,"text":"我想剛剛其實劉建國委員也有提到其實這個他的版本跟我們廖瑋祥召委的版本其實是差不多的可是我們的召委就是廖瑋祥召委他其實更加完善因為把這個依照這個相關的這個關係人依本法未規定的要適用其他法律的規定加進去我覺得是讓他更為完善那至於劉建國委員提到說除適用第四條第五項你們這段有一些不同那是不是他的部分也可以納入讓這個法條更為完善以上"},{"start":25023.766,"end":25049.271,"text":"那請羅廷惠委員發言首先先跟那個交通部的這個師長講說反正就可能麥克風剛我覺得收音不是很好再稍微注意一下我沒有聽很清楚那當然我覺得如果能夠兩者兼併的話跟這個徐政委員所說的一樣的話是最好的但是我想說要了解一下到底有沒有什麼樣的各部會其他的問題是不是能夠講清楚如果沒有我是覺得可不可以趕快推進就保留就好了"},{"start":25050.353,"end":25073.302,"text":"或者是有沒有需要直接把它寫上去然後再放在螢幕上大家看一下現在寫上去如果當大家看一下如果沒意見的話這樣好不好就是第一個第一項我建議就是用上面的第一項沒問題好第一項第一條第一項那第二項剛剛"},{"start":25075.29,"end":25100.255,"text":"廖委員的意思是把消費者跟外送員他也是外送員在前面對外送員在前面然後把消費者跟商家把他放到裡面去那我覺得這部分我們可以尊重那如果交通部跟經濟部沒有沒有反對意見的話這部分我們可以尊重好那但是在雇傭關係前面的那個動詞我們建議還是要寫具有沒問題就不要是另訂這樣子"},{"start":25101.555,"end":25106.461,"text":"OK那我們是不是請他把文字打上去大家看一下是不是比較完善如果沒有意見我們這條應該是沒有什麼問題跟我"},{"start":25118.523,"end":25142.984,"text":"跟網友說明那個其實是當然那是一個論述可是其實比方說裡面會有幾個動詞比方說橫貧其實恐怕橫貧這個字比較不是法律上面的用字它比較是在論述上面的用字法律的話可能還是維護或保障這樣的用字"},{"start":25147.278,"end":25148.239,"text":"我們通常很優秀嘛"},{"start":25155.129,"end":25179.67,"text":"這個一定要採用了連部長自己都承認優秀這麼棒的一段文字為什麼不要放到母法本身呢對不對你讓那個認真的認真優秀的同仁我覺得他真的是很厲害他可以把這部法的所有的精神他用短短的這幾個字在第一條開宗明義的立法精神裡面寫的這麼的好"},{"start":25180.856,"end":25198.863,"text":"我覺得那個主席那就先保留我覺得這段文字真的要好好大家很細密的思考大家修法論法我真的覺得是沒錯所以委員那個剛剛有改上去請各位可以看一下那是不是請王後委司長再讀一下這段然後念一下然後看大家有沒有什麼意見對"},{"start":25203.36,"end":25220.887,"text":"我們第一條為保障外送員權益管理外送平台業者維護消費者及合作商家權益特制定本法外送員合作商家消費者之權益保障及外送平台業者管理依本法規定"},{"start":25221.907,"end":25239.131,"text":"本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定但外送平台業者與外送員間具有雇用關係者除適用第4條第5項第10條及第21條至第25條規定外其權益保障及處罰等事項依勞動基準法及其他相關法律規定處理那你那個你把你那個說明我很稱讚那段文字放另外一個版本會長怎樣"},{"start":25252.042,"end":25264.979,"text":"就是大家看嘛 其實寫得很好耶不然魔法怎麼不好寫就是他整段放上去 大家給他看一下嘛我覺得他寫得比"},{"start":25270.38,"end":25291.315,"text":"你料也想留見我好像得罪了兩位招委不會沒有其實其實是真的我覺得同仁很用心了他那段文字的論述我覺得真的很棒那你們覺得應該要怎麼調可以再調真的第一條我覺得就是要開中明義你這個版本的精神是什麼對我覺得他這樣的論述其實是非常好的你"},{"start":25308.114,"end":25310.457,"text":"好 那請林月琴委員發言我覺得這邊齁"},{"start":25313.365,"end":25339.279,"text":"我們的勞動部寫的 它事實上前端為因應外送平台產業的發展這些前面一直到關係這個事實上是背景那我覺得法律要把背景寫下來因為真正目的是保障外送員還有消費者跟合作商家它是前面的背景以至於有後邊的一個目的性所以我覺得當把背景都要寫上去的時候我覺得在一個法條裡面是要不適宜 以上"},{"start":25342.093,"end":25355.635,"text":"請劉建國委員發言對啦 我只是要誠懇的呼籲黃毓民委員那個主席剛剛修這樣已經蠻不錯了好不好 就讓主席好好處理好不好沒關係 我覺得各方的意見我們可以看看"},{"start":25356.98,"end":25382.623,"text":"如果真的可以接受的話我們就你剛剛已經叫市長去宣讀一次了現在他宣讀完之後又馬上改那剛剛上去好像毫無意義所以你不會毫無意義那都是他們的版本你不要肯定他們嘛那也都是他們的心血我剛剛是肯定主席的處理然後市長去宣讀然後現在又改了那等一下市長又再上去講一次那市長再講了我就聽不下去了"},{"start":25388.591,"end":25403.68,"text":"第一个这段文字是我们写的文字他放在立法说明其实我认为我们认为在条文里面是应该可以写的更精炼只要他涵盖的意思包括涵盖到这个说明的意思其实在母法里面的文字其实应该是要更精炼"},{"start":25404.48,"end":25429.755,"text":"那這段文字基本它還是會放在說明裡面所以大家在整個這個法案的系統裡面其實都還是會看得到的所以我們自己的確是認為說用原本的第一項其實就足以來去處理到包括剛才在講到說保障外送權益管理外送平台維護消費者跟合作商家權益特制定本法所有的動詞都在上面了"},{"start":25431.884,"end":25457.151,"text":"我是支持剛剛主席的處理啦 司長的宣讀啦如果要再改這樣 那我就建議保留了幾乎是這樣嘛好 那本條就保留好不好等一下第二輪再來討論來接下來到第二條我們是不是先請行政這個行政機關勞動部說明"},{"start":25460.266,"end":25474.964,"text":"主席各位第二條主要就是主管機關的權責的一些規範因為本法所涉及到的部會有相當多所以我們就為了避免未來的執行跟監管的權責不清所以我們就明定了各機關的權責"},{"start":25476.466,"end":25500.558,"text":"那確實有部分的委員版本沒有明定各機關的權責的事項那有的委員寫的文字內容可能不盡相同所以我們建議還是採用我們劉建國等16人的提案版本來通過以上說來有沒有委員有要發言的第二條"},{"start":25511.865,"end":25516.994,"text":"我想請羅廷輝委員發言我是覺得就建議通過趙偉的版本 廖趙偉謝謝"},{"start":25525.094,"end":25548.107,"text":"主席我只是想發問因為我看到很多委員的版本他都是把權責切分為勞動部交通部經濟部衛福部金融速發六大部會所以我只是擔心這個第二條最後會多頭馬車戶踢皮球我心中想到的一個例子比如說外送員因為感單發生車禍這個可能是交通部"},{"start":25548.767,"end":25575.634,"text":"主因是平台的演算法設計不當那這可能是速發部跟勞動部那屆時外送員應該要找誰來做這個申訴那是不是是不是應該建議要有一個單一的窗口或是主責的召集機關才不會讓外送員因為一個事件可能牽涉多個部門他會在各部會之間奔波這個是我對第二條的疑問"},{"start":25579.519,"end":25600.38,"text":"來請部長跟文說明第一個因為真的外送平台的業務涉及到很多部比方說勞動部很難去管合作商家的事情勞動部也很難去管消費者的事情我們基本上勞動部這邊我們是這個法會是這個法的主管機關但我主要管的一定是平台跟"},{"start":25601.261,"end":25630.656,"text":"外送員之間的勞動關係包括也許公安或職安上面的事情所以如果以剛剛成員該舉的例子來說他發生了他發生了這個事故的話交通事故的部分當然是交通部這邊但是他受傷了造成職災了我們勞動部一定管我沒有說他是他他是什麼什麼因為平台是因為演算法你用你是各種原因你只要發生了職災我就一定要管"},{"start":25632.932,"end":25648.606,"text":"我就一定要管對所以我們認為這個分工應該是沒有問題的因為如果今天不做這樣子的分工的話我以勞動部的部分我是沒有任何業務單位可以去管跟商家跟消費者等等的之間的這些關係的對謝謝請劉建國委員發言請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":25655.697,"end":25680.719,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位如果方便就再看一下大家法條在各個委員的版本再對一下我想我自己提出的版本應該是可以讓大家做個參考因為這一條是在規範各個機關的權責然後也為了避免執行或監管之權責不明所以我們才要明定各機關權責的事項"},{"start":25682.961,"end":25697.938,"text":"那當然有很多委員提出的版本都不錯不過蠻多委員的版本他是沒有去明定各機關全者事項各位看一下然後部分委員的版本明定各機關主管事項的處理方式又不盡相同"},{"start":25700.14,"end":25713.556,"text":"所以各位如果可以再細思養一下再看一下 再比對一下各位可以參考我跟其他委員的提案的草案是不是比較完整一些啦好 謝謝"},{"start":25720.731,"end":25741.128,"text":"我想要請教一下因為本席也是有分各個主管機關他們相關的權責包含主管機關包含交通主管機關經濟主管機關衛生福利金融速發以及其他外送員那我看這次也是七項那我跟劉昭偉的應該也是七項那我想要請教兩個有什麼不一樣的地方"},{"start":25742.9,"end":25762.602,"text":"跟主席報告我們的條文我們也討論過因為在法律上的文字上我們認為用主管這個這樣事項跟負責我們認為主管就是比較像我們一般的法律比較精確的用詞第二個就是監督管理跟規劃我們認為這個部分會比較模糊"},{"start":25763.263,"end":25786.342,"text":"所以我們認為要不要就是以比較精確的那個次項來明確化會不會比較因為將來這個文字上都是要各部會的圈子的區分所以我們要用主管奇怪我也是寫主管機關譬如說交通主管機關然後對不同的你可以看一下你的版本寫主管機關後面冒號你是寫負責"},{"start":25790.666,"end":25802.978,"text":"那在法律用詞上應該是要用主管還有一些地方還有一些其他地方我請我們市長來說明好那個OK所以就差這兩個字嘛"},{"start":25804.751,"end":25832.891,"text":"報告召委還有各位委員還有主管機關有關於勞動部的那個部分職業安全衛生所以少了衛生兩個字因為職業安全衛生法所以有衛生兩個字那另外一個就是保存外送員相關記錄然後保存動詞我們是放在前面召委的版本是放在後面其他的部分剛剛王市長說過了"},{"start":25833.672,"end":25856.215,"text":"OK好所以基本上是文字的這個差異但是沒問題我想要請問還有沒有其他委員有意見好請林月琴委員發言我想問一下趙偉這邊等下我們每一個這樣子討論一下因為為什麼剛剛有聽說按照趙偉的通過可是基本上"},{"start":25857.856,"end":25883.576,"text":"像譬如說在底下分裂所有的權責就各目的事業主管機關我的部分就跟您的部分事實上是不太一樣的像以交通主管機關來講好了直接講到只有負責交通召委的版本上就只有寫直接就寫說負責道路交通安全外送員交通安全教育訓練可是事實上交通部還有運駕的問題核定跟消費者保護還有個資"},{"start":25884.457,"end":25904.864,"text":"因為通常會在那邊各自保護才會進入到所謂道路交通安全這其他的相關事項所以是不是要逐一去討論因為第一個很多人版本事實上是只有列一個大項沒有列細項可是有列細項的話我覺得要逐一去看這些內涵到底有沒有一樣以上"},{"start":25906.736,"end":25933.257,"text":"來本席因為這個劉建國等16人劉建國委員等16人提案跟勞動部的布板幾乎是一樣的就是等於是布板了那我沒有要堅持因為我認為概念就是方向上是就是有分工每一個部會他有自己的權責所以我認為這條我沒有意見我可以依照這個劉建國委員跟布板這個意見就是等16人對的意見那"},{"start":25934.318,"end":25960.031,"text":"如果大家沒有問題的話我們這一題是不是這一條就是依照這樣子通過好不好依照佈板通過來依照劉建國委員提案通過佈板還沒進來佈板沒進來這個佈板是用這個建國委員的版本來提案這個16人的"},{"start":25966.94,"end":25967.493,"text":"對 十二人是不白"},{"start":25973.063,"end":26000.572,"text":"好 那第二條終於過了一條好 第二條很好 終於過了一條那來再來第三條那請那個勞動部說明主席各位委員第三條主要就是以本法很多的重要的名詞的名詞定義那我們特別要把許多後面法律上所會涉及到的各項的條文的名詞呢做一次的把它明確的定義那因為有部分委員的版本的用詞定義比較少"},{"start":26001.312,"end":26018.751,"text":"那我们希望比较广泛也比较清楚所以我们列的比较多那也把它列的比较详细那另外有委员的版本有提到那个外送消费契约的部分因为我们消保法已经规定了定型化契约的规定后续我们交通部在本法也有规定"},{"start":26019.472,"end":26035.985,"text":"交通部將來也會依照本法規定去訂定定型化契約應記載跟不應記載事項所以這個地方呢我們就外送消費契約好這個地方我們就不用放那因此我們還是建議以委員劉建國等16個人的提案的版本來通過以上說明"},{"start":26036.96,"end":26043.843,"text":"好請那個王玉民委員因為他有修正動議請說明一下我這邊有一個修正動議就是有把這個每筆訂單就是更明確化每筆訂單指的是僅包含一個取件地點以及一個送達地點之訂單那這個是避免就是食物上面可能會"},{"start":26057.37,"end":26084.224,"text":"有一些模糊的空間就讓他對讓他更明確是每一筆就是明確化每一筆訂單只能有一組取送地點那這個其實也是相對去保障我們這一些外送員的權益讓他更明確化那這個部分剛剛勞動部沒有回應這個是不是可以回應一下因為這個也還蠻關鍵的我們是應該要把它明確化好那是不是請市長回應一下主席謝謝王一鳴委員的詢問"},{"start":26087.406,"end":26108.605,"text":"確實在外送員他們在提很多的權益的地方這個是一個很重要的情形就是疊單那確實外送員常常就在質疑是說為什麼外送平台每次同一個餐廳或同一個消費者有好幾個訂單單只算一筆的給他的顯示的第二筆第三筆變得很低很低"},{"start":26109.486,"end":26129.323,"text":"那確實外送員工會有表達說這個每一單都要等值所以這樣的條文未來就是會改變了整個現在外送平台的對外送員在每一筆寄費的一個不同的差別換句話講在同一個餐廳取了三個餐去送給三個消費者會同時算三筆錢"},{"start":26130.524,"end":26144.292,"text":"每一筆的計算就會從我們等一下的那個條文裡面去做很明確的計算同時一個消費者點了三個餐一個外送員送了這拿了這三個餐到同一個消費者他也是算三筆"},{"start":26146.073,"end":26174.544,"text":"的費用所以這樣的規定會產生這樣的一個很大的改變現在的效果當然這也是外送員現在對平台最大的遲疑的部分也是單單不等值那這樣條文就會改變這樣一個狀況以上說明我們尊重對我們尊重"},{"start":26177.524,"end":26197.357,"text":"這個是定義嘛我覺得這個定義就是我們把它定義清楚那這樣子我覺得也因為既然你們剛剛前面一直強調說我們這部法是外送員的權益保障勞動部主管那這涉及到權益保障就的確要清楚那我跟他們有什麼差別"},{"start":26220.217,"end":26238.831,"text":"這個不是 現在這是修正動議拔加上去對針對這個新增的有沒有委員有什麼或者是還有沒有其他委員針對這一條有要發表意見主席"},{"start":26242.442,"end":26259.874,"text":"請陳昭之委員發言 因為竟然爭議點在這個地方我們就這一次就把它弄清楚了所以剛剛我有連署這樣的一個意見修訂我覺得這是名詞定義啦先把定清楚那當然條文可能會去未來也是會去深入的去探討OK"},{"start":26270.913,"end":26296.863,"text":"那請問一下還有沒有委員針對這一條有意見好 如果這一條沒有問題的話我們就是不是仲裁各位委員的意見然後就送出"},{"start":26299.012,"end":26314.645,"text":"OK有嗎 有 劉昭偉有沒有意見OK支持喔 支持喔好那就照王玉民委員修正動議然後不一樣 仲裁啦仲裁對因為這是對"},{"start":26318.721,"end":26338.03,"text":"對前面是院辦草案布板前面是布板而前面是劉建國等16人的再加上這一條的修正動議好所以是仲裁仲裁各委員的意見修正通過好OK第三條就結束了再來第第四條"},{"start":26341.068,"end":26359.317,"text":"主席各位委員第四條謝謝各位委員的提案主要委員們提案就是希望中央組織機關定期邀請平台業者消費者團體等等然後就整個本法有關法規跟執行進行檢討協調以及改進等等"},{"start":26360.137,"end":26387.796,"text":"那也跟各位報告我們訂了這個法以後呢確實我們未來也會很滾動式的來做檢討那我們會隨時也會跟各個利害關係的相關的部會跟團體也都會去盤點然後進行所有的檢討跟改善這個部分我們一定會繼續做所以這個地方是不是就不用在這裡做明定我們一定會做這樣的後續的執行上的一個檢討跟處理以上說明"},{"start":26388.959,"end":26411.079,"text":"好 那有沒有委員有相關意見 請盧憲宜委員發言第四條就是接單費的標準就是我這邊增加的是中央機關核定接單費率前因省著相關法規地理區域地區偏遠的程度 外送的距離 路況的難易度及相關的營運成本和地差別化的外送服務基本願價"},{"start":26418.147,"end":26439.424,"text":"召委那個第二張這個名稱有沒有要處理沒有現在是第4條現在在講現在是第4條是說有沒有要定期剛剛勞動部有回應他就說這個是不是不要定因為他們會定期的去檢討"},{"start":26444.232,"end":26449.967,"text":"所以不是這個不是畫面上的應該是第4條對下面的是這個對"},{"start":26453.097,"end":26477.144,"text":"好那這裡勞動部的意見是說這一條是不用訂就是因為他們會定期去檢討和持續做這個持續跟各個利害關係人去溝通那請問這一條有沒有委員有意見針對勞動部的意見尊重好尊重勞動部意見那如果沒有的話這部分就是依照勞動部的意見就不予採納"},{"start":26483.561,"end":26509.591,"text":"好那接下來是第二章第二章的章名那這部分有沒有相關的意見如果我有沒有意見的話我們就依照這個版本通過謝謝好那再來是再來就是第4條再來是第4條對第二章之後的第4條"},{"start":26513.277,"end":26530.943,"text":"主席各位委員有關於第四條主要我們這個第四條條文就是涉及到我們特別對於外送員跟外送平台之間的契約因為相對上外送員比較弱勢所以我們會訂定地形化契約而且印記載跟不印記載四項"},{"start":26532.103,"end":26561.723,"text":"那我们这里也特别有强调有包括他的报酬计算停权终止外送服务契约申诉制度保险还有外送服务的基本流程专人服务的联络方式我们都会未来在那个定型化契约里面去明定那我们也特别强调说平台跟一页外送员成立的外送服务契约如果有违反我们公告定型化契约应记载跟不应记载事项他其实是无效那如果他没有记载也会成为契约的强制变得契约的内容"},{"start":26562.544,"end":26583.921,"text":"那外送平台他要去變更或增補外送服務契約的重要的權利事項應該經外送員同意而且也不可以用不利對待的方式強迫外送員同意變動或增補那我們最後一個特別一個效果的規定就是未經外送員同意就是用網際網路公告郵件書面等方式去通知不勝效力"},{"start":26584.722,"end":26606.579,"text":"那這次的這個內容裡面我們在這裡就希望還是採用這個劉建國的版本主要的原因是我們部分委員的版本是把很多的內容寫得非常的詳細那我們是不是留一個空間將來我們在我們的定型化契約裡面再來做處理"},{"start":26607.299,"end":26622.154,"text":"然後也有部分委員提到演算法那確實演算法是一個很創新目前這個在世界上大家很多國家也都在面對演算法這樣的一個題目"},{"start":26622.794,"end":26639.846,"text":"那對我們來講這是還是剛開始所以呢為了讓整個企業的營運保有一個競爭性然後也對於我們對保護他的一些勞工朋友外從人的權益有一些保障的話的前提之下"},{"start":26640.786,"end":26655.84,"text":"我們是不是可以不要在這個地方很快的去訂定這樣子的一個演算法的規範然後損害到這個創新還有企業的競爭力所以我們這裡還是建議採用我們的劉建國委員的版本來因為剛第4條那個盧縣議委員剛好像有發言有提問喔那縣議委員你有要再說明一下嗎"},{"start":26666.806,"end":26692.445,"text":"我是針對片地區的一些外送距離跟營運成本能不能有差別化的一個服務的基本運價所以這個部分後委司長是不是要回應一下縣議委員縣議委員有關於那個報酬的計算我們會放在第5條那是不是在第5條的時候我們再來一併來討論"},{"start":26695.592,"end":26705.838,"text":"好OK那縣議委有第5條的時候討論OK嗎接下來OK好那這個第4條的話就依照勞動部的建議通過"},{"start":26718.112,"end":26744.756,"text":"那個第四條的部分其他委員的版本都有寫到那個接單費的標準計算方法發放日對然後劉建國委員的版本這個都沒有這個在對照的條文上面這是不同是第五嘛對不對所以你們要講一下因為這樣子變成好像跟其他委員的版本那個條次就是又不一樣"},{"start":26746.243,"end":26770.291,"text":"第四條主要就是外送員的服務契約只是定型化契約但其他委員會變成是在講那個接單的對 那接單我們一併會都在後面的第五條報酬的部分來做處理都要第五條嘛 對不對對 這個要講一下要不然很怕就這樣直接跳第四條都是外送服務契約的一些效力跟我們這樣訂的大致的一個方向跟內容好"},{"start":26772.95,"end":26800.575,"text":"好第4條沒有問題的話就依照勞動部的意見通過依照這個劉健國委員等16人的通過要不板的不板草案來第5條這個是今天的"},{"start":26807.287,"end":26821.857,"text":"OK 因為這裡還有一個第二張本來有另外一個名稱叫外送員薪資計算基準的這個名稱那是不是這個部分是勞動部這裡就不予採納好不予採納"},{"start":26827.659,"end":26829.501,"text":"好那再來進入到第5條第5條先請這個勞動部來請勞動部說明"},{"start":26834.008,"end":26856.75,"text":"好我先說明一下因為在當然留言的第5條裡面主要處理的就是關於報酬的保障那我想先跟委員們先說明勞動部隊報酬保障的最基本的概念因為確實報酬的保障有不同的方式但我們認為有幾個部分會是希望用政府用法律的方式來處理"},{"start":26857.971,"end":26877.027,"text":"第一个因为过去其实平台的确已经蛮多次单方面的调降报酬那这个调降报酬的过程也造成蛮多的争议那甚至外送人也对这部分有很多的委屈包括也不满"},{"start":26877.968,"end":26903.602,"text":"所以我們認為在這個在這個情境之下的確會需要對於報酬有一個最低的地板保障所以第一個是最低地板保障這是第一個概念那第二個概念很重要是過去在報酬的平台給予外送人的報酬裡面也常有時候外送人會把它戲稱為像抽盲盒就是你不確定到底同一段路在"},{"start":26904.262,"end":26930.06,"text":"同一个情境到底你会拿到多少报酬所以基本上大家会希望这个报酬是一个可验算或者是可预期的所以可验算跟可预期其实是报酬的处理里面我们认为第二个概念所以基本上我们是在这两个概念下面来设计这些报酬相关的方案保障的方案"},{"start":26930.64,"end":26941.387,"text":"那现在委员们的版本的确蛮多的版本比方说三分之一的基本费等等最低工资我们的确认为这这样算起来是比较高的"},{"start":26942.915,"end":26962.012,"text":"我们认为这的确会是比较高的所以这也是为什么我们现在部里面我也跟各位坦诚其实在因为我们现在这个所谓的预告版部的预告版就留言的这个版本里面其实现在是过了预告其实大家有一些意见所以我们其实的确有些方案也在这里面做一些思考"},{"start":26962.933,"end":26981.805,"text":"那但是就现在几个委员的版本里面假设是要用是要到这个基本费的三分之一的最低工资我们认为这的确会是一个相对比较高的这个状况好那请这个王玉明委员发言接下来请邱振军委员然后再请王建豪委员"},{"start":26982.835,"end":27005.675,"text":"謝謝莊委 我想第5條是這次修法的很關鍵的核心這個是過去我們看到很多外送員他其實權力不對等 外送平台要怎麼去設定他的演算法 或者是說他要降低他的獎金最近又傳出來說直接獎金 他說降低就降低"},{"start":27006.335,"end":27013.361,"text":"那這樣的一個浮動是任意式的調整的確對於我們的外送員來講是非常沒有保障的"},{"start":27013.973,"end":27041.24,"text":"那今天我們要來討論這部法當然就是回到怎麼樣給他們最基本的保障那在我原來提出來的版本原本就是希望是不得低於基本工資三分之一就是給一個樓地板就是很明確的這一個樓地板那剛剛這個部長有提到說這樣的算法會變成是比較高那我想問的就是說什麼是高什麼是低"},{"start":27042,"end":27061.101,"text":"是不是勞動部可以提供數據給大家就是說目前這一些平台喔他的營業的這一些獲利率或者是說他的營收或者是世界各國當他們在訂這個最低保障的時候是不是同時會看到現在平台到底他"},{"start":27062.101,"end":27082.369,"text":"包括他跟商家他大概收取了多少%的这样子的一个费用等等那他的获利是不是已经是过高那这样的调整我们是回到合理的调整我现在有点担心我现在好像有人在带风向说这次修法过后我们的外送的费用会全面的调高"},{"start":27083.149,"end":27098.761,"text":"用這個好像用消費者跟外送員的那個對立來做這樣的一個恐嚇我個人覺得很不可取就是說我們應該是要回到一個事實我們今天是要保障外送員有一個基本合理的他的這個收益"},{"start":27099.401,"end":27115.655,"text":"那如果有人刻意去帶風向說這個法通過之後我們外送費會全面調高那我覺得不應該是這樣子去放這樣的一個消息而是應該回到我們我們這個之前好像這個我記得平台業者好像也對外說這個外送員已經都有什麼"},{"start":27116.394,"end":27135.168,"text":"他們現在的那個合理的費用可能是多少等等我不曉得主案機關有沒有掌握到現在這些數據我們今天修法是一個非常合理的一個調整但是如果有人要藉此說澳法通過之後大幅調高所有的外送費用然後把那個成本轉嫁到消費者身上我覺得那個就是不合理"},{"start":27135.968,"end":27165.252,"text":"那就是刻意去操弄這件事情我覺得那個是完全不對的所以是不是主管機關可以提供給大家一個比較客觀的資訊剛剛因為部長一直在講說一個合理就是說如果你們算出來1.25倍相對是合理的那就表示說外送平台不應該根據這一次的修法通過之後去調高大幅調高價格你懂我意思嗎就是說現在因為外送平台也對外宣稱說他們給的都是合理的價錢那現在到底是給到什麼"},{"start":27165.692,"end":27169.949,"text":"那如果我們現在今天過了一個提供樓地板的基本的保障"},{"start":27170.956,"end":27194.903,"text":"那我們並沒有大幅去增加什麼平台業者的費用或什麼如果他今天說你法通過因為給了最低保障之後所以呢我要調高這個所有消費者將來這個所有的那個費用支付的費用我覺得這樣是不合理的這個是我們在修法過程要去避免的而且也避免有人用這個再去炒作一波"},{"start":27196.203,"end":27211.955,"text":"對就是把轉嫁給消費者那這樣也是不合理的可不可以提供一些數據出來因為你們竟然可以算出1.25倍嗎我覺得是合理的好不好跟委員說明其實在現在部的預告板"},{"start":27212.735,"end":27239.296,"text":"就是留言的版本里面基本上我们并没有去就是说我们并没有办法一下一定拿到平台他的真实的财务状况是如何所以我们认为我们自己认为在我们现在版本的理据理据的概念是因为这是定的是地板所以我们认为这个地板一定是要有最低工资的概念"},{"start":27240.686,"end":27262.48,"text":"OK所以他有最低工资的概念那所以他会我们认为他应该要跟我们的最低工资来联动就是我举个例子劳动部我们不会去定我们不会去定这个因为你这个行业的薪资比较高我就要定你比较高的薪资的底线我不会我们基本上是管的是那个最低工资的这件事情"},{"start":27264.44,"end":27282.107,"text":"那所以我但是外送员的工作跟一般去超商打工我们认为有不同的地方是外送员他还要负担他的运具的油资折旧维修损耗的等等那在这个里面是有一套交通部的公式的"},{"start":27282.987,"end":27300.372,"text":"所以是最低工资再加上外送员要负担油资损耗折旧维修等等的成本公务局有一套算法把它算进去基本上我们算起来的话会是最低工资的1.25倍"},{"start":27302.453,"end":27329.046,"text":"那未来最低工资如果调整的时候那这个1.25倍大概就要跟着最低工资来联动我们的逻辑是这样子的所以我们的逻辑基本上是一个围绕着最低工资去抓地板的概念所以我们并不是说今天有一家平台他的财务状况比较好我的地板就要定高一点有一家平台他的他的财务状况比较差我的地板就要定低一点我们的概念不是这样子对"},{"start":27331.505,"end":27350.594,"text":"剛剛在講就是說基本上我們今天修法是訂出一個合理的然後也是覺得應該是要符合現況維持這樣的一個標準的但是現在之前媒體就是有報導有人就說這個法通過之後會大幅調高未來這個外送的費用"},{"start":27352.015,"end":27377.037,"text":"如果有這樣的情況我覺得也是不合理的因為我們今天只是剛剛部長已經講了我們今天訂的是給外送員合理的基本的保障就這樣而已不會因為這次的修法通過之後就有外送平台業者要大幅去調高外送費用轉嫁給消費者這也不應該發生因為我們今天是訂合理你剛一直在強調我們今天是訂一個合理的費用而已並不是一個"},{"start":27378.198,"end":27400.346,"text":"超高的费用你还刚刚还说我们原来委员提的这个基本工资三分之一你说那个是比较高啊是对不对是表示你有个比较的基准啊所以高跟低啊我跟委员说明比方说那如果通过你这个版本1.25倍我个人就觉得外送平台不应该是大幅去去调高外送费应该没有那个不应该有这样的现象才对跟委员说明第一个"},{"start":27401.4,"end":27418.876,"text":"的確現在在不同的區域裡面有些外送員他的報酬會比較高有些區域他的外送報酬是比較低那我們的確看到有一些地方他的外送報酬是拿的比最低工資來的低的那我們當然現在就要要求他在每一個"},{"start":27420.509,"end":27442.565,"text":"這個跑的跑單的這個時間裡面這個服務期間裡面我們認為要要求他至少要在最低工資然後再加上他的這個助理負擔的成本我們認為這是我們所謂合理的邏輯是在這個地方我們合理的邏輯是從這個出發點的對部長不應該因為這個法通過去轉下去對大幅高高外送費就是我覺得這一點是我們"},{"start":27452.615,"end":27479.026,"text":"平台去就是現在我們看到因為我們也去看了很多外送人他實際上面他拿到的報酬是有一些他的平均是高於這個數字也會有一些低於這個數字所以現在的確會有一些低於這個數字的我們要要求他要把他假設是用這1.25倍的話他是要拉到這個數字上這的確他在這部分平台是會增加成本"},{"start":27484.479,"end":27510.217,"text":"我跟委員說我們的意思是說今天從我今天從勞動部的角度我們就是希望工作者都可以有一定的至少一定的地板的保障可是你實際薪資拿的高或低這個事情不是我勞動部我可以要去做官的事情所以我們只是說這個地板的保障有沒有理論基礎"},{"start":27511.849,"end":27539.895,"text":"有沒有利潤的基礎那我們提出來的利潤基礎就是我剛才說的這樣是一個跟著最低工資再加上他這個他要負擔的這些硬體的成本油資的耗材成本我們的利潤基礎是來自於這邊我知道我在跟部長講的是說你剛有講有些地方他其實比基本工資還要更好有一些他現在可能還不達到現在的這個1.25倍"},{"start":27541.155,"end":27554.285,"text":"所以對平台業者來講他本來他現況他多的跟少的他平衡下來不要因為通過這個法他要去全面調高消費者的外送費這個是不合理的"},{"start":27556.366,"end":27571.252,"text":"我沒有辦法去但你們應該注意這個現象應該是說我跟委員說明的確平台現在他宣稱給的平均的的報酬目前他宣稱給的平均報酬是超過現在我們所謂的1.25倍的這是他宣稱的"},{"start":27573.055,"end":27595.576,"text":"那有些高有些低但是我們沒有辦法我沒有辦法當平台代言說他接下來的各種行為一定是這樣還是一定是那樣但我們能夠定的是他至少是那個最低的基本保障他的利潤我們認為要經得起考驗這個羅天威委員邱政軍委員歡迎"},{"start":27596.244,"end":27614.798,"text":"我等很久了這個看起來剛剛我這樣聽了一下我看布裡面這個對我們這個劉建國委員的這個版本是情有獨鍾但是這個也沒關係因為我們本來就要支持這個專法就是要照顧這個外送員"},{"start":27615.518,"end":27638.597,"text":"那當然啦剛剛我們域民委員講的還有我們縣議委員講的就是要這個周詳的評估那當然我們要了解說多少成本會造成多少傷害等等我們要取得外送員消費者餐飲業與平台業者四方的權益啦這是我們這個立這個法的一個最重要的一個目的也是今天的重頭戲當然我們有人在講說這個專法過了100%會這個"},{"start":27643.261,"end":27672.008,"text":"會提高消費者的負擔當然我更認為就是說其實法如果立得剛好的話就是還是要回歸市場機制你不做就別人做這個當然我們也要考量我只是希望說尤其是我們偏遠的地方尤其是偏鄉不是非都市區它可能會造成它的成本的增加等等那是不是會影響到我們這些消費者的權益我想這一併也要考量一下"},{"start":27673.148,"end":27698.802,"text":"當然我剛剛看到我們委員的版本劉建國委員的版本是很多人支持的部長也說明了1.25倍的當初訂的基準我也希望說今天開這個會我們部裡面能夠再落實一下剛剛講的這些數據能夠把這個東西傷害減到最低最好是四方都能夠受益以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":27700.376,"end":27723.95,"text":"好那請你剛換你嗎黃建豪委員然後等一下再換黃建豪委員完羅廷偉委員然後羅廷偉委員完李坤哲委員然後再來是陳昭之委員和范雲委員好不好你要記得喔這個好我想今天這個最主要當然"},{"start":27730.854,"end":27759.832,"text":"可以保等一下那个换换换一个麦克风那个麦克风没声音抱歉今天最重要就巴黎部长也提到说要有一个所谓的最低的地板保障的数字那到底基本肺部的低于基本工资的三分之一如果是太高的话假设是这样子那到底多少的数字是觉得合理我觉得这要把它入法包括后续的契约怎么定但是我们今天希望立法的一个标准说至少要把最低楼地板的"},{"start":27760.512,"end":27778.693,"text":"这个数字来把定进去那到底要占多少好这部分我觉得可能劳动部有一个如果你们觉得三分之一太高的话那到底多少数字合理的我觉得这是要提出来的那另外之前交通部提说要放所谓的外送运驾准则的公告等等里面包含说要放进刚刚提到的这个等待费啊楼层费啊"},{"start":27780.074,"end":27808.437,"text":"里程费啦还有这个那个什么春节的这个家家等等的这部分我们希望说要透明一点就说到底我把这个这些钱灌进所谓的订单之后那灌进去之后那个钱到底是给平台拿走了还是说这个是属于这个额外送源的因为刚刚提到说不然等待也好或是我要上楼也好或是我这个春节家家我我春节出来送单这件事情这是个人的行为这跟平台有没有必然的关系我觉得这个是需要"},{"start":27809.778,"end":27826.448,"text":"来把它一并讨论进去所以我觉得这包含基本费在内如果三分之一太高的话那到底多少比较比较合理因为包含之前我想在11月多的新闻里面提到说目前平台公布的时薪基本上也超过的所谓的245元所以他其实如果按照这个标准放进去的话"},{"start":27827.489,"end":27856.269,"text":"这我们就我所理解的一般外送员在送这个送单的状况下面一小时大概三到四单左右所以我们才有这样的基准说所谓的三分之一那另外一部分就是说现在的问题是我们想解决的事情就是说在这个他叠单的过程里面我是消费者国庭委也定网友也定我们同时间定之后叠单的过程我们都有付所谓的外送费进去但是平台并不会把所谓的我们三个人付的外送费给那个外送我相信这大家都很清楚"},{"start":27857.301,"end":27872.415,"text":"所以我们今天为什么要定所谓的三分之一为什么要定所谓楼地板是希望这部分能够把它保障进去不要说叠单之后全部都是由平台业者拿去赚走而已我想我们希望说执行这个劳务的执行这个工作的外送人本人"},{"start":27873.175,"end":27896.026,"text":"所以这相关的费用应该是给这个人才对而不是全部都又回到平台去分配而已如果最后全部回到平台分配的话这个法律的意义就不存在了所以我觉得说还是要很明确的今天的重点或目标数字多少我就大概讨论但就是要把所有的楼地板楼地板的数字把它定出来以上谢谢好请罗廷伟委员发言"},{"start":27899.042,"end":27906.885,"text":"我想這一條重中之重大家都非常有建議但剛剛其實勞動部有講到有的有高有的有超低"},{"start":27908.035,"end":27934.145,"text":"我认为这个我们今天就是在处理这个超低的部分那今天把超低变成符合最低薪资这个是最基本的我们不应该在任何的工作的前提之下维护劳权不应该有任何的所谓被剥削的一个情形所以今天我们在处理超低的部分那所以今天不管是三分之一或是最低薪资我们都希望今天把楼地板定好以后能够对这一个外送员"},{"start":27934.915,"end":27957.421,"text":"所謂的基本的一個權益來做一個保障但是目前我們看到就是有人在放消息或者是透過特定的這樣子的一個新聞媒體去報導讓所謂的這些消費者的權益會感到擔憂我們也要跟這些不管是觀看直播的還有全體的國人特別報告我們在維護的是"},{"start":27958.101,"end":27979.166,"text":"所謂的最低薪資的權益那今天我們也都是可以開放性去討論這些內容但是也希望說大家一定要對這個法令上對於這個開放性討論給予一個期待因為我們現在看到他們一直在宣稱可能到了245元以上這是外送平台在說的最低薪資外送"},{"start":27979.646,"end":27997.567,"text":"平台说是245甚至有到达260到290那我们今天都只是维护最低薪资所以也希望说今天的开放性讨论并不会造成民众的恐慌那最后我还是希望说目前劳动部用这样子的邮件国的委员的版本其实我觉得是乐观其成"},{"start":27998.865,"end":28027.985,"text":"好那谢谢罗廷伟委员发言接下来请陈昭之委员发言应该是我啦对应该是我啦那李坤晨先对李坤晨先哎呦这登记之后马上就乱掉了然后是昭之然后是范宇委员然后是我是你是你是请说请说好谢谢主席这个讨论这个第五条是相当重要就关键的就是我们外送员他的性质那我的版本跟刘建国的版本他其实比我"},{"start":28029.407,"end":28047.269,"text":"還要更好因為我的是這一個是不得低於每小時最低工資是1倍它是最低工資的1.25倍其他的我都跟劉建國委員的應該都是大致上是雷同的"},{"start":28048.05,"end":28065.723,"text":"但是有一个比较不一样是有关于这个小费那个外送员是消费者取得的小费是属于外送员跟消费者之间的个别给付不得记录前项所定的报酬总额因为有时候比如说像今天比较冷"},{"start":28066.423,"end":28093.29,"text":"今天比较冷你这个晚上很冷你要这个外送员要去送这些东西或是今天下雨要去送天气状况会影响到那有一些人觉得说我这个外送员的服务态度很好或者说还要爬楼梯上去等等之类的他会额外给予这个外送员这些小费那我的版本里面是希望说这个消费者给予这一个外送员之间的这一个小费等于是"},{"start":28093.95,"end":28115.963,"text":"這個外送員他的一個服務那不應該記錄這個我們前面所規定的這個報酬的總額裡面那我希望說是不是也能夠把這點納進去也鼓勵我們的這個外送員如果你表現得好那當然就是消費者願意給你更多的一點酬勞那就是好像我們是有時候去外面餐廳一樣有時候會給你多一點"},{"start":28116.583,"end":28131.969,"text":"多了一些小費除了基本的這個消費之外會多給點小費我想是不是在外送員這部分也能夠把他拉進去那沒有列入這一個我們之前所定的這個報酬總額以上說明謝謝謝謝林輝誠委員發言請陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":28134.032,"end":28154.164,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席雖然有一部分是雷同的相同的那個意見但是民眾黨的這個我們的版本還是第一個是就是不得低於基本工資的這個三分之一那部長您一直說這個比較高那個高你應該有個評比是比誰高怎麼高法"},{"start":28154.924,"end":28181.595,"text":"就是這是第一個就是說我們的主張是如此但是今天這個版本我們在討論的時候其實外送員其實我相信包括合作商家或是甚至這個消費者大家是又期待又怕受傷害我們今天立這個專法是在保障主要要保障這個外送員因為這個新興的行業其實已經耽擱了十幾年但是一方面我們並不期待說在這個法通過之後造成這個"},{"start":28182.955,"end":28212.081,"text":"大家受害的受伤害的反而是消费者跟这个商家等等其他刚刚大家就认为要有四个stakeholder大概有至少四方这是非常重要的原则所以这是第一个我想说有一个楼地板将不得低于基本工资三分之一这个概念跟医药是药品是很像每一类药品为什么大家会退出市场就不再提供基本上有一些东西比如你做个糖浆有个基本的工资打定剂有个基本的大品点有个基本的底"},{"start":28212.661,"end":28232.403,"text":"才不會出現像我們上次生理實驗所整個大缺貨所以這個概念是這樣我們就是要保障這個外送人這個最基本的一個概念在裡面所以我要請教勞動部你們有沒有把每個版本的這個所提出的版本的計算過每一分鐘大概平均多少錢你們有做過這個功課嗎"},{"start":28233.644,"end":28253.935,"text":"每一個人提出每個黨團或每個委員提出的版本真的非常辛苦把這些資料匯整起來其實2023年台灣民眾提出全國第一個版本只是沒有機會來進行盤審那等一下我要請勞動部來回答你有算過嗎那你這個我想要了解那麼再來就是說"},{"start":28255.638,"end":28274.87,"text":"其实外送平台他们宣称目前他们的工资他们所提供的工资其实依照我们今天的这些规格算出来好像他们已经付出超过至少不低于目前我们这个几个版本期待的这个工资那这个既然如此我们可不可能就说"},{"start":28275.911,"end":28290.229,"text":"还是要确保劳动部你还是要确保不要因为这个专法通过然后用各种理由借故不管是怎么对外送商家的部分还有消费者部分你有办法去做一个"},{"start":28291.01,"end":28297.232,"text":"保障嗎 據我們了解其實國際的資料 其實勞動部應該是有我們這邊也有很多國際相關的 因為這個都是外來的他們在其他國家對於合作廠商他們的抽成跟在台灣的抽成等等這些數字是可受公平的"},{"start":28314.297,"end":28341.488,"text":"然後我要在這個請勞動部先幫我算一下你們認為高那你請問每個版本每個委員的版本算出來每分鐘多少錢那我要請教這個交通部你這個基本運價我想說運價這個訂定的機制是如何你是怎麼訂出來的是交通部自己訂還是會有外部學者專家平台業者外送公會代表一起討論那我再請問公平會如果專法通過和外送平台聯合漲價"},{"start":28343.089,"end":28352.257,"text":"公平會你有能力處理嗎我想這幾個問題就請等一下就請相關部會能夠回答好謝謝好那請范雲委員發言"},{"start":28356.247,"end":28375.163,"text":"我自己的这个第9条的关于这个费用的部分就是报酬的部分是以就是每小时的基本报酬就换算之后不得低于最低工资法所定的每小时的最低工资因为我是想说我们是保障那楼地板应该是用最低工资法"},{"start":28375.703,"end":28400.382,"text":"但是我后来看了刘建国委员的他是1.25倍就是换算之后我觉得是更好因为就是他有请教他他有提到这其实还有油费对不对然后摩托车还有折旧费等那我想我们既然是保障那把这些费用算进去其实是合理的譬如计程车也有一个起价的钱"},{"start":28400.842,"end":28419.554,"text":"因为就是不是只是他开的费用因为他的车子会折旧各方面所以我是希望支持刘建国委员这个版本那当然就是如果大家要用更多的时间因为我觉得这个薪资保障是非常重要的我也会支持我们花更多的时间讨论怎么样是最有保障的"},{"start":28421.499,"end":28447.375,"text":"好 請林月琴委員發言好我覺得今天主要就是外送員的權益要被保障所以在這部分大家會討論這麼多也無非事實上是要去考慮到過去很多爭議事實上是他們突然被片面通知然後等於他的每一單裡邊的費用尤其是第一單然後最後夾單又都沒有錢這我們之前也開過記者會"},{"start":28449.416,"end":28469.419,"text":"那我自己写的原来事实上是最低工资就是每小时最低工资那我觉得现在刘委员的比我们的还要高1.25那刚刚劳动部也讲过说为什么会去用1.25那因为有考虑到油资折旧维修的费用这些相关的事项"},{"start":28470.66,"end":28497.638,"text":"那当然有些委员也有提出来说那每小时最低工资三分之一那刚刚一直在问劳动部有没有利润基础他刚刚已经提出说他1.25倍事实上他的那个算出来利润基础已经是存在可反而就是说每小时最低工资的三分之一那也要回过头来看有没有利润基础这个点到底事实上因为我们讲说这四个的权益都要被保障的时候要去考虑"},{"start":28498.078,"end":28516.337,"text":"所以以这样子看的话今天我觉得很难达成达成共识尤其刚才前面讲的就是说我们没笔订单我们后面还去考虑到夹单跟叠单的问题的话我认为劳动部应该要在这一题应该要再去更怎么去让我们的"},{"start":28517.398,"end":28545.718,"text":"外送员的权益被保障到我相信身为我们的劳动权益的主管机关应该会去考量所以我认为这一题不应该在这时候去这么仓促的去做这样的讨论应该保留然后让他们有时间否则的话你先讲三分之一一个讲1.25倍那我的原来最低就用所以我本来看刘委员的我觉得OK啊1.25倍那可是如果在讲叠单夹单的那种状况里边怎么去中整然后以"},{"start":28546.839,"end":28561.344,"text":"外送員最佳利益來考慮的話那怎麼去做處理我覺得應該不是在今天這麼短的時間尤其是其他版本又沒有辦法提出來說有些利潤基礎在哪邊而要來討論我就不適合所以我覺得保留以上請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":28563.232,"end":28577.171,"text":"因為他對我的提案有所保留所以我必須講一下這個我們是要確保外送員的基本的這樣的一個收入的保障我剛剛聽勞動部所講還有我自己的提案裡面這個很清楚"},{"start":28578.953,"end":28594.052,"text":"機車 機慢車一定有孫模這個孫模一定是在成本裡面這是其一然後再來它也有一定的風險存在這裡要把它衡量進去然後它也有油資哪怕電動車也要去充電"},{"start":28594.913,"end":28621.678,"text":"等等等等零零總總加起來這個不叫灌進去的這個原本就是在這個外送員的一個他需要得到一個合理報酬裡面我們必須要去把它精算出來合理的精算出來我想這是一個這是對於這個法律來講我個人感覺這個是叫做基本功基本功嘛如果連這個基本功我們都做不到那我們今天訂這個法律那那個意義都已經不見了"},{"start":28622.498,"end":28639.9,"text":"那我現在那個交通部那個市長有來吧市長市長我們是要保障低寒就最少多少起跳嘛對不對那你怎麼去給人家頂上限你們的基本運價是頂上限你知道嗎對啊我看很恐怖的"},{"start":28642.832,"end":28670.125,"text":"來 我看這一段喔 你看喔你們有一個 今天交通部是不是有預告一個外送合理的運駕準則嘛那過去坦白講 都以四輪車輛為主嘛機慢車你們是沒有 兩輪的你不一定過所以你要去參考過去的四輪來訂定這個交通運駕的準則用在機慢車的身上顯然有些問題交通部現在是把這套公式來訂對這個消費者收費的上限價格"},{"start":28672.096,"end":28689.468,"text":"收費者的上限價格那看起來我就覺得怪怪的因為我剛剛特別講說我們今天立這個法定了這個準則跟這個主要的核心的目的是要保障外送員夥伴的這個權益嘛剛剛講我就不再追溯然後外送員面臨的問題他們需要是一個基本的價格的一個保障"},{"start":28690.228,"end":28714.847,"text":"所以勞動部剛剛有特別提到了嘛而不是說並不是說他們要向平台業者或是商家還是消費者要去收取多少的報酬所以我說那不是管理我們本來就在身份裡面嘛這應該大家就先做那我們這套公司在我們這部法案的運用裡面它絕對不是用來處理上限而必須是拿來處理外送員外送員端的報酬的這個最低的這樣的一個保障嘛"},{"start":28716.067,"end":28730.596,"text":"但是反而裡面交通部訂的運駕這個準則反而是在訂一個上限這個我覺得有點大的衝突喔你們可能要回應一下還是要有所思考謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":28731.616,"end":28746.431,"text":"好謝謝劉昭偉我整理一下我覺得第一個要請勞動部花一點時間好好的因為這都有記錄好好的解釋一下我剛剛有很多委員其實想要問的就是說現在外面包含可能很多網路風向會說一定會全面漲價"},{"start":28747.492,"end":28766.399,"text":"或者等等的會怎麼樣就是轉嫁到消費者身上那我想這個勞動部可不可以好好回答一下剛剛在好好講清楚一次可不可以告訴大眾客觀的事實是什麼比如說剛剛你們有提到說有平台業者說每小時是多少錢我記得上次公聽會人家那個平台業者自己有講平常講他就是講290對不對"},{"start":28768.32,"end":28795.217,"text":"市長也在點頭 他講290嘛那你現在訂的基本到頭1.25是多少245 對不對好 所以我想剛剛的委員想要跟你們講的事情是勞動部可不可以好好解釋一下說因為包含勞動部長前陣子在新聞上面也有說過消費者不用擔心漲價那是不是可以把這個部分再一次講清楚一點讓大家 讓所有委員在現場也都可以理解然後怎麼訂的這是我想第一個問題喔"},{"start":28796.178,"end":28819.515,"text":"那剛剛招資委員也有說到就是那假設如果被漲價啦等等那公平會怎麼樣呢那還有委員也提到交通部的部分等一下是不是也一併回答一下那請勞動部回應還是要跟各位委員說明其實勞動部的角度我們基本上的角度是要保障外送員的基本權益"},{"start":28821.044,"end":28840.16,"text":"所以我們在定報酬的很多的想法的出發點包括我們的利潤就是從外送員的基本權益來定我們並不是今天平台的這個財報好我們就定高一點平台的財報不好我就定低一點不是這個道理"},{"start":28841.482,"end":28862.543,"text":"就像我們在訂最低工資的時候最低工資是用勞工的生活支出跟經濟負擔來訂他的最低的這個最低工資他的概念是來自於這個地方今天不是去看這個公司的財報好我的最低工資就訂高"},{"start":28864.445,"end":28885.199,"text":"財報好的公司最低工資就高一點財報不好的最低工資就低一點不是這樣子所以我們是從工作者的基本權益的角度去出發看待這件事情的我覺得這是一件重要的事情我還是必須先說明是這樣所以當我們要定地板的時候基本上的邏輯就是我們認為他要跟著最低工資"},{"start":28887.202,"end":28915.809,"text":"我们认为他就是跟着最低工资所以我们也没有觉得说他要再往上多加怎么样子但的确今天如果是三分之一的话他的这个三分之一最低工资的话算起来他的是比较高的那我们我还是要回到劳动部的职责劳动部的职责我们不是去管制哪一个商业行为能涨价不能涨价"},{"start":28919.198,"end":28931.278,"text":"我今天勞動部你要勞動部去管制某一個商業行為能漲價不能漲價這件事情實在是我這不是我能夠全線上面能夠做的事情"},{"start":28932.867,"end":28954.342,"text":"那平台的确在之前的公听会上面他有说他们的平均是在270还是270290之间这平台他们在公听会上他们有做这样的宣称他们有做这个宣称那但是的确有很多外送员认为实际上根本就没有到这个数字"},{"start":28956.581,"end":28966.796,"text":"好的确所以我说我们在这方面我们只能出发点的事情就是那个地板怎么样定的有利润基础我们的角度是这件事情"},{"start":28969.153,"end":28987.23,"text":"是所以本席還是想要請這個部長再說明一下你們的利潤基礎是從最低基本薪資嘛對不對然後1.25那你的這個1.25可不可以再講清楚一點包含剛剛有說到車輛的攤提折舊還有油資啊等等可以再說明一次我的意思是說剛剛委員們"},{"start":28991.109,"end":29016.538,"text":"要問我說那你要我講說那三分之一怎樣三分之一又不是我提的這不是應該提的我現在講1.25的請你解釋1.25的不是我的意思是說應該我們可以講出1.25的利潤基礎是什麼那提案三分之一的委員的版本應該要去論述那三分之一的利潤基礎是什麼應該是這樣子那大家再來看這個利潤基礎之間怎麼樣來取捨"},{"start":29020.326,"end":29023.417,"text":"我没有办法去代言那1 3的利润基础是什么"},{"start":29028.112,"end":29057.795,"text":"对我刚才已经说了我们1.25倍的利润基础就是最低工资加上外送员的必要的运具上面的支出比方说油资比方说车辆的耗损比方说维修他有一个general统计上面他可能每公里大概会是多少的费用然后换算下来我们认为大概在1.25倍左右这个是我们定的这个地板的利润基础是在这里"},{"start":29060.131,"end":29067.713,"text":"好請羅廷偉委員發言接下來請吳思耀委員發言那你拿著麥克風拍著我以為你要講那請吳思耀委員發言"},{"start":29071.389,"end":29096.541,"text":"謝謝主席我想第五條如何去合一合理的訂出外送員的基本報酬絕對是這一次討論重中之重的條文那我認為數字上我想不管是行政部門或者是立法部門我們都是想替外送員的權益爭取更合理的這個報酬我想這個目標一致這沒有問題"},{"start":29097.441,"end":29124.162,"text":"只是說在民進黨的版本劉建國教委的版本我們比較傾向是勞動部他有試算的這個1.25倍那剛剛他所說的為什麼是1.25多出來的0.25就是外送員本身因為他的行業的特殊他有油費要支出他可能車子會有維修的風險或者是折舊的攤提等等所以他們的利潤基礎0.25的增加是這樣算的"},{"start":29126.724,"end":29151.898,"text":"那我也同意說我相信國民黨委員和召委所提的這個三分之一也有您所試算的的基礎那我覺得這個大家想一想保留一下那可以行書不同的文字我們再來好好的思量譬如說召委這邊所提的三分之一的增加的部分那您的試算的基礎的"},{"start":29154.091,"end":29178.621,"text":"對我覺得大家都可以理性討論啦那個差距也是可以所以這個條文不要卡在這裡所以我覺得是我們可以因為也前面有條文是保留的那後續再回來看條文的時候勞動部也把更具體的資訊還有包括交委提案要爭取大家支持的這個利潤基礎我們一起拿出來大家一起來比較來理性的討論我是做這樣的建議好嗎謝謝那請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":29183.988,"end":29200.123,"text":"我要先提到在公聽會那天他們提到的那個260到甚至290那個數字為什麼很多人會覺得他是低於這個部長這很清楚你在報告勞工的薪資平均薪資的時候報告到好像62萬結果"},{"start":29202.205,"end":29226.478,"text":"有七成的勞工 根據主計從來有七成的勞工說他在這個平均值以下那個平均值就是一個不是參考的如果你用中位數也表示有一半人低於這個所以我們今天才要來想辦法保障就是平均的概念但是平均是對業者來說也許他總的收入他可以來這樣來計算所以為什麼我們一直堅持說其實我可以接受尤其我版本不版會會員版的版本1.25"},{"start":29227.358,"end":29254.034,"text":"但是就是保障這個樓地板嘛就讓就是說不要讓他們業者所謂的260或290但是事實上有七成人是低於這個我們今天就是要避免這件事那第二個就是說剛剛主席也替我再問了一次沒有人可以回答這件事那我們這個專法過了以後那萬一就是聯合漲價以後那這個有沒有方法可以制止有沒有方法可以制衡這件事情好就是我大概就是這個清楚那我可以接受沒有回沒有人回答還沒有人回答"},{"start":29254.943,"end":29260.207,"text":"好請行政部門 是不是相關的行政部門回答公平交易委員會的主密麥克風"},{"start":29269.518,"end":29296.909,"text":"公平會這邊做說明價格是市場競爭的核心那如果今天有業者他們就這個價格上面來去做一個共同決定的話這個會有公平交易法的違反那公平交易委員會一定會針對這個他們聯合漲價的這個情形來依法來處理這個沒有問題那另外就是說因為今天第五條的這個樣的規定會形成有一種兩種的價格在剛剛"},{"start":29298.549,"end":29318.626,"text":"劉委員有提到說公路法的運價是一個上限的規定從條文看起來會變成有兩種地板價第一個就是公路法規定的基本運算的價格再來第一個用勞動部依照基本工資每小時去算的"},{"start":29320.147,"end":29344.117,"text":"那個樓地板的價格那如果這個價格如果一旦定了以後就會形成價格的這個僵固性那我們還是希望這個說立法院這邊能夠好好去考慮這個市場競爭的問題因為價格是市場競爭的核心所以我們還是希望說在這裡能夠考量一下這個怎麼樣能夠讓市場的競爭秩序能夠更順暢以上好來"},{"start":29350.865,"end":29351.392,"text":"巫巫私下委員請發言"},{"start":29352.686,"end":29381.659,"text":"所以公平會議代表的意見講得很清楚如果因為不管是不是因為這個立法然後這可能平台之間隨時任何行業有任何單一時段的不合理的不正當的聯合哄抬聯合來key game他有他的政策工具可以處理嘛對不對剛剛的回答是這樣所以也不必然跟這個立法有什麼直接的關係anytime只要不合理的這種聯合哄抬的行為他就是有"},{"start":29382.219,"end":29396.911,"text":"它就必須辦那第二個這就是我說為什麼這一條我們大家可以緩一緩保留一下再思考就是說確實我們今天訂了1.25倍或者是三分之一再增加三分之一都會連帶影響平台它的成本"},{"start":29397.671,"end":29415.06,"text":"那另外我們也要確保外送員的權益他本身的最低報酬不被剝削所以說這個拿捏也就是剛剛委員已經問到了擔心會不會有人因此聯合來烘台因為他可能覺得成本增加很多這就是我們現在要好好審慎思考這個條文的部分"},{"start":29415.86,"end":29437.981,"text":"所以呢既然是重中之重大家考量這麼多真的我們就可以再更數更科學化的再有其他的參酌再來討論好不好所以這條真的就剛剛公平會的我是聽得很清楚所以我更認為這一條我們要更慎重可以先暫時保留那請問一下那更慎重1.25倍是你們覺得是可行的嗎"},{"start":29439.022,"end":29463.097,"text":"你們是覺得可惜嗎對不對大家都覺得1.25倍可以啊所以如果是1.25大家OK今天就沒有問題1.25倍可以啊對1.25對啊因為剛剛我來說明啦我說明的確現在會有我可以很坦誠的說在我們預告之後的確是會有一些外界的意見對於"},{"start":29466.358,"end":29491.27,"text":"這個條文裡面連動到剛剛交通部的基本運價的審議有一些多的一些意見因為現在這條裡面有兩項以劉委員的版本也就是布版因為它其實是一個預告版大家對這裡面有兩項一個部分是1.25倍的部分另外一部分是交通部的基本運價的審議"},{"start":29493.26,"end":29517.01,"text":"那我们的确是收到了一些意见是对交通部运驾审议这个部分主要是运驾这部分是不是要这样做那尤其他是联动到他的上线这件事情是有些意见的所以我说实话我们当然觉得1.25倍这事情我们当然觉得从外送员的部分我们的部分但是对于联动交通部的运驾的审议的部分我们的确觉得可以再做一点讨论"},{"start":29518.922,"end":29538.558,"text":"好對因為現在看起來比較具體的就是這個1.25倍是沒有什麼問題好那對因為在野黨委員覺得沒有問題在場但現在就是說那個交通部的運駕嘛那因為你這一條其實有說交通部運駕由交通部主管機關審定之嘛是對所以如果他現在有意見的話可能業界可以去等於是交通部因為他這裡面沒有定時"},{"start":29539.378,"end":29561.354,"text":"交通部的這個部分但是它的邏輯現在會有一些確實不管是之前聽到外送員或者有些對於這個方式去訂它的邏輯然後也包括因為它就會有點像進入到像Uber Taxi的處理的方式會有人對這個事情比較有意見所以我雖然這個條件是我們訂的但我們對我們的1.25倍我們當然還是覺得這是比較適切的"},{"start":29564.436,"end":29588.534,"text":"比三分之一最低工資適切可是另外這一條的另外一項是1.25倍的確我必須因為我跟各位講我們這個預告版其實他是在上個禮拜才過預告的時間但是就是因為現在委員會要審所以我們就拿預告版進到現在由委員幫這個預告版來提案所以我覺得這個部分是不是聯動交通部的部分我們的確覺得可以做一點保留"},{"start":29589.929,"end":29615.144,"text":"所以我補充一下因為現在進入的如果是以建國委員的第五條的第二項我們現在處理卡在第二項那第二項我修正一下我說法我說對於這個1.25倍我能夠接受是相較於教委所提的每小時最低工資的三分之一是這個部分好所以1.25跟三分之一的比較我認為1.25是比較合宜的"},{"start":29615.584,"end":29643.526,"text":"但是這一項裡面還連帶牽動到交通部主管的那一筆運費的部分還要再審酌那既然是在同一個條文的同一項因為它如果是不同項我們還可以先過某些項保留某一項可是它是在第五條的第二項綁在一起的條文所以真的我覺得大家再多花一點時間再審酌一下不同部門之間的意見再次建議一下召委"},{"start":29644.181,"end":29659.399,"text":"好請 林月琴委員好 召委剛剛一開始在講第5條的時候也開宗明義在講說這一條事實上是整個法裡面重中之重事實上是對我們的外送員事實上是權益影響最大的"},{"start":29659.899,"end":29682.282,"text":"所以我就認為要慎重那如果今天剛才部長也提到說因為在預告之後還是有些有意見他還沒來得及再去收整更好的去討論的時候我們今天在這邊他能只能就他現在原來規的規劃的那個1.25倍來做討論我會覺得不完備因為法定下去對於外送員"},{"start":29683.55,"end":29702.121,"text":"今天他的權益受到一些損害的話那我覺得那就不是那這個法根本就不需要存在因為他們最期待的需要的是這一塊所以是不是可以讓他們有一些時間去做一些討論所以我認為還是保留好不好好請王一鳴委員發言"},{"start":29703.089,"end":29726.586,"text":"我覺得我們剛剛討論那麼多第5條這個事實上剛剛部長一開始報告也講就是說委員提的這個基本工資三分之一他覺得過高他們是經過已經非常精算的是1.25倍那這樣子討論完之後我想這個國民黨這邊也支持就是說我一直到現在我們是支持部的版本現在不是不知道為什麼突然又要喊"},{"start":29727.681,"end":29752.077,"text":"這個暴流喔對啊也都是那也都是你們提出來的版本啊不是嗎就是應該你們你們之前就思考過嗎我覺得如果要處理我們今天應該是更有效率的稍微都說今天可以開到很晚嗎這關鍵的條文我們就好好的來處理好好的來討論啊那剛剛提到的就是交通部的部分剛剛交通部講太少這個交通部可以再表達"},{"start":29752.717,"end":29778.293,"text":"就是說這兩個如果你覺得彼此之間有什麼問題的話講清楚嘛應該怎麼調整嘛關鍵的條文用這樣的處理方式我覺得不錯大家可以可以花更多時間討論呃對我好請陳昭志委員發言接下來現在所有的外送人大家都在等待今天的目前這個做法我非常覺得奇怪這也跟這個朝野立委都同意的版本"},{"start":29779.173,"end":29807.252,"text":"那現在是行政單位你開始猶豫了我們支持不反對這個今天就是好我們已經就是把我們原來的三分之一同意了你們1.25倍1.25 1.25今天就是把1.25定下來就是這樣那另外因為就是交通部另外在當然要說明但是另外他再去處理他也不是此時一刻他能夠把我們這件事交代清楚我再說明一次第一個我們當然主張1.25這沒有問題"},{"start":29809.053,"end":29830.032,"text":"这件事情绝对没有要变现在的现在的状况我不知道大家知不知道交通部的这个部分的逻辑好交通部的逻辑是他们会定一个运价他其实主要是要他要来跟消费者跟合作店家来收费的运价所以呢交通部的运价呢其实在他的逻辑面他通常他会定的比较高"},{"start":29833.447,"end":29862.181,"text":"比方說高鐵高鐵也會定一個運價的上限他是抓一個上限的邏輯可是通常實際上面不一定會到那邊那但是呢確實我們現在這是在這個在我們在預告的過程裡面的確會有一些人來指教說我們的這個條文的寫法因為是不低於那個上限各位了解我的意思嗎是不低於這個上限"},{"start":29863.813,"end":29890.065,"text":"對 所以可是問題是交通部不會現在就把那個訂出來所以變成是交通部的這個上限其實這個工會其實也之前也對我們提出這個指教包括工會 包括平台都對我們提出這個指教其實我們是在收到這個指教之後我們自己內部也在審酌現在在第五條的第一項我們也認為恐怕是有在更仔細討論的空間"},{"start":29893.243,"end":29916.572,"text":"但是第二項的部分只要是那個1.25倍的部分當然我們還是主張這件事情可是這個第五條裡面有兩件事情第五條裡面有兩件事情一件事情是交通部的基本運費的審議第二件事情是1.25倍的最低底線最低底線部分我們當然持續主張"},{"start":29918.052,"end":29939.014,"text":"可是對於交通部上面這部分有沒有更好的做法我們其實是覺得因為現在各方都有來這個意見不管是公會端不管是平台端都有來對於說是不是要用這個交通部他訂的這個基本運價的那個上限的部分其實有提出請我們再多討論那我們自己在省族上也覺得這部分是可以多討論的"},{"start":29940.168,"end":29967.325,"text":"那第五條他第一項這樣的一個寫法事實上他的彈性很大就是說你所有要在討論的這個通過是沒有相衝突的就是說他通過之後你可以在你們就是更仔細的討論裡面去做實質的一個調整但是在母法的處理裡面我們覺得他哪一個部分限制了你未來的一個討論不是我跟主要是因為那個裡面寫到不低於嗎對不對哪裡"},{"start":29971.303,"end":29997.688,"text":"前向最低工資的運費我完全懂你們的意思但是我的意思是說在這個運價真的我覺得是神聖這個條文當初是沒錯是我們發想來擬的可是當我們在預告的時候我們的確也收到各方不同的意見我們在收到各方不同的意見的時候也覺得是應該再思考一下這個這個題目的"},{"start":30002.814,"end":30017.372,"text":"這不是就是說我覺得在審慎上面至少我覺得在這一輪我們覺得可以先保留然後在這個題目上面我們可以再把它想得更成熟一點因為這是母法"},{"start":30018.652,"end":30047.88,"text":"我部長我請教一下因為第一個這個法如果以後面的當然後面還會討論到他是六個月後嘛對不對六個月後實施有條文是這樣寫那這個過程中你第一項已經講得很清楚前面不是也都分工給各個主管機關所以交通部的這個他現在是還有時間去檢討他所謂的成本合不合理這件事我跟委員說明我更直接講交通部這個基本運價如果訂的比較高那消費者可能會被收比較多"},{"start":30051.3,"end":30075.022,"text":"交通部這個所謂的基本運價的意思在他們這個基本運價他其實是跟消費者收的就像高鐵會定一個基本運價這高鐵基本運價定的比較高其實他可以跟消費者就會收的比較多好但是呢他定的低大家又會擔心外送員的收入因為我們等於是跟這個東西聯動嘛"},{"start":30078.646,"end":30091.353,"text":"其實簡單來講你是 現行沒有做法完全沒有做現在沒有法所以我的意思說當初我們在概念上面把交通部這個部分給寫進來的時候意思是說訂的比較高"},{"start":30093.243,"end":30108.279,"text":"就是在假設我的意思說交通部假設訂的比較高那其實就會變成跟消費者可以收的比較多消費者跟店家就會收的比較多那外送員的薪資外送員的報酬也就會比較連帶會比較高"},{"start":30110.603,"end":30133.051,"text":"如果交通部這個基本的運價的上限他訂的比較低那他可以跟平台可以跟消費者跟合作店家收的就會比較低但外送員的報酬也會在這邊會連動比較低這整條的邏輯是這樣當初我們設計的概念是這樣可是這個概念的確在上網預告之後"},{"start":30134.131,"end":30154.706,"text":"不管是平台不管是工會都有覺得好像有在商榷的地方我們也收到了這樣的訊息所以我們才覺得說如果因為上禮拜五我們才結束預告所以我們才覺得就這個部分謹慎起見可以再多做一些討論"},{"start":30157.213,"end":30164.568,"text":"概念是這樣子部長我想要回應一下因為我覺得再更具體一點不然所謂的在研議在討論也是一直討論"},{"start":30166.257,"end":30192.777,"text":"好那我先我再問一下問題請你們回應一下因為你剛剛有講一高一低現在重點是交通部的運價可能還沒有很確定有很多不同的變數對不對那其實現在外送員他們現在最care的是基本保障那你現在的基本保障就是寫是1.25那就是確保他有這個1.25那至於未來你交通部就定的高或低你也是用所謂剛剛說科學數據的方式去看他每公里到底應該多少錢"},{"start":30194.158,"end":30211.408,"text":"對 那我覺得現在的這一條的重點反而因為你給的空間叫做讓交通部去訂現在這一條的重點反而是你勞動部的這1.25是不是可以確定下來讓現在的外送員安心就是說他有這個基礎的保障我覺得這應該是這一條現在卡的我可以跟委員說明1.25的主張我們不會變的"},{"start":30215.329,"end":30239.719,"text":"1.25的主张不会变的我从头到尾刚才就是在论述这个部分的利润基础我们认为是经得起考验的现在的问题是因为在这件事情上面他有两个两个条件另外一个条件是关于交通部的运驾审议的部分那这个审议的做法的确是有几方都有提出不同的意见那我们也在思考"},{"start":30240.959,"end":30268.821,"text":"如果不要用交通部这个他还有没有其他的替代方案有没有更好的做法我们也在想这件事情如果没有替代的方案也许就要用交通部这个做法可是这个过程希望让大家有一个可以在更审慎思考的空间我的意思是这样但是1.25这件事情我们没有要变我们没有要改现在主要是联动交通部运架这个部分的确外界有不同的意见"},{"start":30270.512,"end":30276.938,"text":"那請問一下我提出一個意見請問一下如果這一條我們就很明確的說是保障他最低是1.25往上的那是所謂的自由市場就是像剛剛這個公平交易委員會說的如果他因為他願意多跑一些然後他因為這個跑的條件比較嚴格讓他們這個自己去調整如果是這樣的情況的話你們是什麼看法跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":30296.734,"end":30304.9,"text":"如果在這一條裡面就把第一項給拿掉只有1.25這件事情我認為工會可能不一定會接受他的保障就只有一條現在這個保障裡面是兩件事情"},{"start":30315.75,"end":30343.108,"text":"但是如果把交付这部分直接就全部给拿掉的话那他就只剩一个那他的短单就比较问题比方说如果8分钟左右一单在我们1.25的这个概念里面我更讲更白其实等于就是你在跑单的时候每分钟大概是4.1块但如果遇到比较短单的情况的时候长单比较长单他跑的时间比较长那你就是必须看跑多少分钟就乘上多少个4.1块"},{"start":30344.892,"end":30370.169,"text":"可是如果比较短单的时候我举个例子如果在城市在都市里面可能有8分钟一单这种状况的时候他城上大概就有30几块所以我想跟委员说明的事情是我们其实是非常非常仔细的在审慎思考各种情境的可能性怎么样是比较合理的保障这不是一个喊价的概念跟过程"},{"start":30371.092,"end":30382.391,"text":"那今天在1.25這件事情上它能夠比較保障到的是需要比較長時間的長單的地方但是的確在都市裡面也有會有一些短單"},{"start":30384.949,"end":30405.824,"text":"那部長我請教一下第一個如果現在維持這樣的情況是不是等於是他的樓地板就是1分鐘4塊錢4.1塊好那如果江東部的運價因為他們要因為你因為其實基本上是有給至少6個月的時間你去好好的定你所謂的運價成本合理化的這個成本好那"},{"start":30406.644,"end":30430.205,"text":"到時候基本上這一條未來他們怎麼訂那也是尊重交通部但是你至少給他一個基本保障叫做每一分鐘不得低於4.1塊對 是嗎就是現在這個概念那現在這樣子會有我不太懂現在卡住的點的衝突還是不是很理解那個 趙委我建議是不是先休息一下我跟各位說明一下因為坦白說這一條的設計是比較複雜的"},{"start":30433.604,"end":30447.937,"text":"而且真的要非常非常的審慎好那我先宣告一下好了報告委員會我們今天的開會時間就延長到這個劉建國委員版本的第8條處理完畢再休息那請問各位委員有沒有異議"},{"start":30449.955,"end":30476.202,"text":"好 有沒有意義如果沒有意義的話我們通過等一下 有意義一下 對不起是這樣子因為不曉得第五條我們就先休息出這條因為這條可能會就卡很久先溝通一下再處理那如果說這樣子那張偉如果你們才是沒有 如果這條一直卡所以我們一直覺得說就保留這一條先保留因為剛剛第一條也保留了條文那個法案名稱也保留了後面還會有回來的時間嘛"},{"start":30478.343,"end":30504.053,"text":"所以說如果為了招委說要到第8條那可以啊那這一條就先保留我們就跳第6第7第8我們尊重招委討論一下我先宣告不是我已經先宣告我們今天處理到第8條那你剛剛不是在徵求大家同意我們在表達沒有沒有我想要跟你說的是他現在休息嘛那如果等一下討論講的你需要保留或什麼我們等一下結束再說"},{"start":30504.906,"end":30526.455,"text":"那今天就是到第八條結束這樣因為這一條是我們要花時間好好講沒有問題主席不好意思我還是要抗議一下因為我談三分之一的時候我又同時問了這個運價是你們都沒有人肯回答我等到我同意你們的版本你這個運價又開始出問題主席我真的抗議事實上就是如此我提的運價當中只有我一個人提出運價問題機制怎麼做"},{"start":30528.516,"end":30534.719,"text":"好 那我們休息十分鐘你就是不想做嘛 預告都這麼倉促你就沒有想做嘛你根本沒有想辦這個法過嘛這麼匆忙好 討論一下"},{"start":31878.598,"end":31878.82,"text":"好 現在繼續開會"},{"start":31887.746,"end":31912.182,"text":"剛剛這個休息期間大家應該針對第五條今天算是最重要一條有各種的意見和各種的想法那剛剛部長可能要再請你再次說明1.25倍你們這裡最低保障絕對不會變但是有一些短單長單的考量你們需要保留這一條到第二輪那第二輪也就是明天你們明天的時候會把條文定清楚再出來討論"},{"start":31913.323,"end":31940.859,"text":"我在跟說明一下因為我知道有很多可能在看直播或者是什麼的朋友我直接說勞動部從頭到尾我們對於以小時以時間來算的這個1.25倍我們都沒有要改我們也覺得這是有利潤基礎的是這個部分但因為第5條裡面牽涉到兩件事情一個事情是關於時間來算的1.25倍另外一個事情如果大家可以看條文就是關於交通部的這個"},{"start":31943.981,"end":31960.575,"text":"基本運價的審議那我們在預告的過程裡面主要是在交通部的運價審議這部分不管是工會或者是平台 幾方有來針對這部分有提出一些不同意見的挑戰"},{"start":31961.676,"end":31985.119,"text":"有提出一些不同意见挑战所以我们认为在这个是否要联动交通部的运驾这件事情基本运驾的审议这件事情我们觉得可以有多一点时间大家再把它想清楚可是我所谓的多一点时间不是指我要想一个月我要想一个礼拜不是是我们觉得在现在这个当下可以相对先保留一下"},{"start":31985.7,"end":32004.826,"text":"我知道明天可能就稍微来说他就会再排第二轮我想我们到时候就会提出可是我要再我要再补充是对于1.25倍这件事情基本工资的1.25倍以时间来算这部分我们没有要变我们没有要变这部分是对于长单的部分"},{"start":32006.215,"end":32023.79,"text":"只要每分钟就可以有4.1块这部分这还是我们的主张这没有要变现在是跟这一个1.25倍原本搭配的交通部的基本运价审议我们觉得是不是要再做一些思考或者是要不要有一个替代方案比方说要有一个保底还是怎么样子"},{"start":32024.531,"end":32051.459,"text":"我们在思考这件事情主要今天大家刚刚停下来做多做讨论的主要是这件事所以我要再说一次1.25老公没有要变是他的搭配的配套那个部分要是什么我们在觉得可以再再做一点思考主要是在这部分所以这是现在在保留的原因是这样子谢谢好OK那现在这一条的话我们是不是就保留然后等明天"},{"start":32052.694,"end":32074.552,"text":"第二輪勞動部提出具體的條文再回來審查問題我們會在明天提出條文然後裡面的條文一定會有一點二五倍不會跑掉一定會有一點二五倍那這條第五條保留到第二輪討論那接下來進入第六條"},{"start":32076.087,"end":32094.763,"text":"第6條的話是這個劉建國委員等16人的提案請勞動部說明主席各位那第6條主要我們就是考慮因為常常那個外送員他在128接訂單的時候呢他很多訊息搞不清楚"},{"start":32095.461,"end":32123.559,"text":"对于预估的报酬还有取送商品地点常常都只是开盲盒所以呢希望我们也能够在法律上明定当外送平台提供订单给外送员的时候要同时告诉外送员有关于订单的一些预估报酬跟地点然后还有一些重要的资讯那主要就是也让外送员可以去评估我到底要不要接那我他让他比较有更多的资讯让他能够理解好这以上报告"},{"start":32125.066,"end":32147.786,"text":"好那針對這條有沒有委員有意見請吳世耀委員發言這一條謝謝勞動部最後提醒了我們好我們當初在討論的時候確實思量到我們的外送員確實有剛說的他每一個單資訊不清楚的時候他接不接不接好像也會擔心說我未來會有不利對待好我在挑單"},{"start":32148.507,"end":32171.86,"text":"但接又在資訊沒有被清楚的揭露的當下他可能又有流入這個抽盲盒看運氣的這個風險所以說依建國委員召委的這個修正案的第六條呢就是明定外送平台業者於提供訂單與外送員時應明確告知訂單之預估報酬"},{"start":32172.66,"end":32189.713,"text":"取送商品地點及其他相關重要資訊那這個我們跟工會討論過那我相信是可以有利於我們外送員的夥伴們清楚的資訊揭露所以希望能夠叫建國交委這個條文來通過好請陳昭資委員發言"},{"start":32191.94,"end":32211.582,"text":"主席我就在代替外送員們來提問現在很多外送員跟消費者之間的糾紛在來自於送餐到指定地點以後要不要爬樓梯那有些外送員他不想接需要爬樓梯訂單但因為現在的平台的接單系統讓外送員在接單前不會知道樓層是按下這個接單才會知道要送到幾樓"},{"start":32212.922,"end":32226.367,"text":"這樣會導致沒有辦法或不想爬樓梯的外送員會選擇棄單那這樣對消費者也是困擾所以我想請教勞動部第六條文字可以讓外送員在接單前就知道是否需要爬樓梯或坐電梯以及包含樓層的明確資訊嗎"},{"start":32228.168,"end":32256.754,"text":"因为现在文字只写说取送商品地点及其他相关重要资讯我们担心就可能不够明确还是会发生发生接单前资讯不够透明情况这个就请说明一下或讨论一下要不要写得更清楚谢谢这样好不好就是我跟委员说因为第6条是现在很多外送员抱怨的点就是说他到那个地方他不知道比方说他也许到了一个医院的门口他车子骑不进去了那个医院的院区很大他走进去"},{"start":32257.774,"end":32279.775,"text":"那他走進去時間就很長或者是他走進去要走到他不知道這資訊所以平台應該把相關的資訊都要告之外再訂單告之外再送員那剛剛趙志偉剛才講的我建議因為在我們的說明裡面我們其實有裡面寫第一點比方說送餐地點包括行車里程步行距離抵達區等我建議我們再把一個頓號包括樓層好不好"},{"start":32281.957,"end":32298.744,"text":"就是那個括號裡面我們有包括行車里程步行距離抵達區因為樓層本來就是我們認為必須要提供的資訊只是我們要用細則來處理可是如果大家不放心會怕會沒有樓層的話我們直接在說明欄的那個括號裡面把樓層放到那個括弧裡面"},{"start":32303.266,"end":32326.858,"text":"就很好但我就说带一下木那楼层会知道是要爬的还是要有电梯吗有电梯可搭吗我就是替外送员请教一下坦白说这个资讯的样态会很多我可能很难在这一并就把所有东西都写完这是为什么后面刚才第二项我们是写说会有个细则的原因但总之大家会担心主要担心会是比方说爬楼梯的楼层"},{"start":32327.438,"end":32349.862,"text":"那我们就把楼层这两次放到说明栏里面至少大家就知道说他必须要提供相关的楼层资讯好不好OK好我可以请教一下那个那个邮件委员的第六条他是对应其他委员的第几条啊没有他这个条文这个条文是劳动部自己心理出来的只有他有对"},{"start":32350.953,"end":32367.467,"text":"OK好那我我贊成要把剛剛那個趙志偉講的就是詳細那個樓層的因為那個也是他們現在那個困擾要爬樓梯跟跟是一樓的是有差的這個可以再加進去這其實就是訂單透明化了對"},{"start":32370.232,"end":32388.54,"text":"謝謝因為這一條也是外送員很基本的需求這個訂單的透明度那我想這個這一條我沒有我也支持那請問有沒有任何還有沒有任何委員有意見或是勞動部有沒有要補充說明沒有好沒有的話那這一條是不是就仲裁各位委員的意見通過好那接下來下一條下一條下一條是下一條是哪"},{"start":32400.433,"end":32417.439,"text":"下一條是洪孟楷委員他們的第6條我們建議我說明一下沒有就是你們把我們的第6條變成是籠統的你們剛很簡短的第6條是不是"},{"start":32419.101,"end":32440.28,"text":"跟委員報告這個包括洪峰改委員等提的有關於第6有的第6條有的是第5條主要就是希望要我們跟這個目的事業主管機關對外送員的資格還有關於外送服務期間有關食品安全交通安全的設備工具訂定外送安全服務標準那也跟各位委員報告"},{"start":32441.021,"end":32457.075,"text":"不是啦那个我们的第6条是要揭示那个外送平台业者英语外送平台界面客户端明确揭示下列各款事项这个是到底是第几条对照你们版是第几条"},{"start":32462.589,"end":32482.993,"text":"我们这一条到底是对应你们那王玉明委员讲的是第44页的台湾民众党等相关人的第6条那有一些委员所以李坤诚是第4条罗志强是第10条但是核心概念精神其实有点类似现在刘建国委员版本的第6条对呀就是资讯的揭露你刚刚说"},{"start":32483.713,"end":32509.131,"text":"沒有相對應的版本這個是寫的比較清楚那我們委員就說台灣民眾黨然後萬美玲徐宇甄等相關委員的這個第六條他比較多這其實也是剛剛召委雖然有講說劉建國委員的這個第六條我們先綜合大家意見通過但是我還是想要強調的是說因為劉建國委員的第六條沒有錯我需要"},{"start":32510.231,"end":32532.278,"text":"明確的資訊讓外送員決定要不要接單可是如果說你看這個44頁台灣民眾黨等委員的第6條他其實談的比較廣他就不只是指示給外送員的權益餐廳也有權益啊消費者也有權益啊那所以說才會講是說外送平台應該要把"},{"start":32533.278,"end":32562.301,"text":"相关的东西都给明确的揭露跟委员说明会比较保障几方的权益你现在讲的因为刚才在讲的透明化是针对不同的对象有不同透明化的item我们刚才在讲的主要是针对给外送员的资讯在刘建国的第六条是啊那现在如果说外送员在讲的是外送员有保障那其他譬如说像餐厅也好商家也好消费者也好我建议不定定我不了解"},{"start":32562.921,"end":32591.344,"text":"那這個部分主要是給消費者的那這部分要不要請江部你後面的建議條文為什麼這個部分要建議不定定呢我們剛剛不是說這個是要多方保障嗎還有包括消費者"},{"start":32597.12,"end":32618.151,"text":"我們現在先討論44頁你就看頁數比較準針對王委員這邊幾個委員有提到就是要揭示各款項的部分那裡面有涉及到消費權益的部分那我們後續後面的條文會有提到"},{"start":32618.511,"end":32638.208,"text":"說我們會依照那個消保法會去訂那個消費者的應記載不得記載事項那裡面就會把這些相關的權利義務的部分會去做一個明定第幾條你們的在第幾條我們的13條有關於那個第幾頁不好意思對啊第幾頁所以這是不是應該移過去呢13條的這一次"},{"start":32643.954,"end":32657.509,"text":"還是要不要還是要不要到第13條在處理消費者的部分我們再來討論這個部分好不好對啊那你你應該不是說不訂定本條規定你應該是說那個在你們不版的第13條對意思是說因為現在剛剛洪孟凱委員在講的民眾黨的這個給消費者的資訊揭露"},{"start":32664.116,"end":32692.91,"text":"主要他處理的條文是在劉建國就是不版的第13條那因為我們現在只走到第6條那我是建議要不要走到第13條的時候我們再來討論這部分給消費者權益跟資訊要定到什麼程度我知道但你們的建議條文你們你們是建議不定定本條規定那你不是說13條嗎你應該是說到13條一起討論不是不定定啊不定定我們就會覺得那就完全被忽略了"},{"start":32695.576,"end":32700.097,"text":"好 那就到13條討論回去第6條還沒有然後他全部都對我說他們這個"},{"start":32719.696,"end":32733.822,"text":"所以那個那個張偉我們我們這一條其實還是要保留他們建議就是不定定但我先回到43頁好不好因為剛剛直接跳到44頁了嘛第6條還沒有這條還沒有討論那這條這應該是先討論一下那這條是對這條也有紅夢卡委員的版本還有羅廷偉委員楊瓊怡委員張家俊委員劉建國委員林倩琦委員和羅志強"},{"start":32747.797,"end":32770.799,"text":"還有好幾個啦有好幾個對對非常多大概每一個都有在這裡有提部分的主席那我來簡單說明一下有關於紅白委員21位有提了有關第6條的部分那我們確實也認為確實外送委員很多的東西需要一些規範但是因為現階段我們在考量目前外送平台還在發展的階段"},{"start":32771.64,"end":32789.747,"text":"很多兼职跟编辑劳工为了相关的生活上的一些依赖来从事外送如果现在针对外送员的资格现在就要去做限制跟规范我们认为是不是暂时先这段先不要"},{"start":32790.707,"end":32805.812,"text":"其实有关于交通安全上面的设备跟工具目前交通部针对机车本来就有很多的规范应该也不需要在这里重复再做一些规定所以我们建议说可不可以这个条文就先不要规定"},{"start":32807.751,"end":32828.863,"text":"好 那先針對這一條有沒有委員有意見請劉建國委員發言因為我自己本身有提版本啦但因為剛剛聽到這個勞動部所說的一個建議事項以後我覺得我們不堅持沒關係但是回到42頁的他們剛剛說的那個第6條還是希望說剛剛劉建國委員的那個版本是可以再保留討論的"},{"start":32834.534,"end":32847.286,"text":"因為我們剛剛不是有講到因為你的下面一頁他是說到13條討論了對對對因為他還需要討論到時候我們這一個的版本要跟他的第6條來做到13條一起共同討論"},{"start":32848.976,"end":32875.356,"text":"賴希謙請行政部門說明我說明剛剛劉委員的那個版本是對於外送員本身要做的資訊的揭露訂單的資訊揭露那剛剛我們在牆面剛剛洪孟愷委員有講到有一些是對消費者的資訊揭露那個對應布板是對應在布板的13條所以剛剛我們有說剛剛跟王玉敏有說我們到13條的部分再來討論那個部分"},{"start":32877.607,"end":32896.625,"text":"對 那現在在討論的主要是是洪委員在講到說洪孟愷委員的版本有講到說是不是要訂定對外送員的資格來訂定資格那我們的確覺得這部分真的要比較小心因為現在外送員總共有14萬人我今天劃了一刀下去也許就會有一些人突然說我不在這個資格的範圍裡面"},{"start":32898.306,"end":32917.762,"text":"他就突然就不能起了所以我们认为这部分要非常非常的审慎所以我们这是为什么不建议在这里面来出外送个外送人资格源因为我们不是重启一个新的行业而是在既有的框架像既有的人数下面我们要来管理的时候这边就有一些人就是会直接被划出去对啊这就要比较所以我说这个区块我不坚持吗ok"},{"start":32919.224,"end":32933.878,"text":"我想我們也提醒部長啦在這一條就是我們43頁所謂這各委員的版本包括其實劉建國委員也有提案劉建國委員他也有對於所謂的外送員資格"},{"start":32935.62,"end":32960,"text":"那不過我實在話講這一條的核心精神絕對不是審查資格這一條的核心精神其實是後面我們要保障食品安全跟交通安全這才是核心精神所以當初為什麼會劉建國委員也提出這樣的一個條文我想他的核心精神絕對不是在審查資格而是我們要保障消費者以及在運輸過程的一個權益"},{"start":32961.861,"end":32982.86,"text":"但既然有疑慮的部分那行政部門也建議先不討論這一條話我想我們是可以接受那不過就說剛剛提到44條的44頁的部分我們就不要讓他跳過而是44頁的這一些條文保留到等到我們到78頁的13條的時候再一併討論這樣好嗎謝謝"},{"start":32987.83,"end":33014.312,"text":"好沒問題還有沒有委員有意見好如果沒有的話我們先講剛剛43頁這條就是依照行政部部門就不予採納好那再來就是第44頁的這個第6條的部分包含台灣民眾黨提案等等這個就是保留到第13條不版的第13條不版的第13條也就是78頁的時候一起來討論"},{"start":33016.834,"end":33022.024,"text":"好那接下來再往下一條第7條"},{"start":33024.608,"end":33047.434,"text":"主席 各位委員有關於第七條部分也是長期我們外送員非常在意就是工作權的部分實務上確實平台常常因為很多種不確定的一些規範然後將外送員終止契約那終止契約以後他就沒有辦法提供工作了他也沒有任何的平台有機會去從事這樣的工作"},{"start":33048.234,"end":33070.022,"text":"那因此我們在這裡特別明定外送員應該要有符合這幾個非常重大的一個違法的情形的時候呢你才可以跟他終止契約包括違反歌詞法性騷擾防治法然後交通法規等等食品安全法規等等重大的狀況之下呢才可以去終止契約而且我們本條文呢也會提到很多的相關的規範"},{"start":33071.082,"end":33082.512,"text":"那也就是說他要通知我們的外送員那也要讓外送員有這個申訴的機會也讓外送員在工作上面有比較好的一個保障的權利以上說明好那請問委員有沒有意見好請盧憲宜委員"},{"start":33095.725,"end":33113.559,"text":"就是就申訴的部分如果說我們的外送員是原住民族的話希望他的處理的小組希望有一個人是原住民或者是相關領域的好不好外送員他本身是原住民族他要申訴的時候第九條會討論到請勞動部說明一下我們還是拿麥克風跟委員說明一下"},{"start":33118.881,"end":33144.432,"text":"也跟委員說明一下就是說我們在第九條我們就有設計了一個獨立的小組主要就處理有關於申訴終止契約的案例主要的目的就是考慮到是因為外送平台常常因為擔心消費者的個資而不往往的不告訴我們的外送員說到底是誰申訴他有不當的行為因此我們有一個獨立超覽的小組來做審議"},{"start":33146.133,"end":33160.074,"text":"那在這個審議的過程當中我們最主要是看事實的具體的狀況然後透過一些客觀的沒有跟平台有利害關係的包括勞動法令跟熟悉外送平台產業實務運作的外部專家學來擔任"},{"start":33161.696,"end":33181.356,"text":"所以這個部分我們也認為還是由平台他們來處理但是一定不能有跟平台有利害關係的人擔任那個三人小組所以這個地方我們是不是就不用有放有關於原住民的一定要在裡面放原住民的一個代表以上說明"},{"start":33184.969,"end":33200.474,"text":"這個部分是放在第9條第9條嗎第9條我會順便講一下我的修正動議你們看一下就是外送平台業者不得因外送員提出申訴或協助他人申訴而對其作出任何不利之處分"},{"start":33201.694,"end":33228.822,"text":"這個部分你們先回去研議我在那個修正都沒有講因為剛好盧委員的是涉及到第9條嘛現在先提而已你現在是先提醒嘛對對對有這個部分因為他的也是第9條嘛我就順便提那本席想要問一下因為這裡是各個很多條文是有第7條第16條那本席的部分是第6條我想請問一下我的第6條應該跟這個劉建國召委的版本是幾乎應該是一樣的吧"},{"start":33232.799,"end":33255.094,"text":"跟召委說明一下也確實是後來我們有在討論過除了這六個主要的法律之外還有一個很重要的關鍵是外送服務契約的違反也就是說最重要外送平台跟消費者之間是透過外送服務契約去約束跟規範外送員在整個外送服務流程當中應該有的作為"},{"start":33256.595,"end":33273.143,"text":"可能不一定他對消費者的動作跟態度是有違反到前面那些法律因為法律有時候是非常最低的要求跟標準可能他很嚴重違反了外送服務契約導致消費者可能產生非常大的不滿甚至造成很大的衝突"},{"start":33273.783,"end":33298.538,"text":"那這種情形狀況之下而且是情節重大我們也認為外送平台也有權利來終止外送服務契約即便是勞僱關係我們的勞基法也有明定勞基法第12條它違反勞動契約情節重大也是可以去做終止不一定要完全是違反法律而已就是想要請問這跟我的條文有哪一個地方有不一樣我們這裡有增加一個外送服務契約"},{"start":33301.879,"end":33313.138,"text":"終止外送服務契約 廖偉祥也有啊且情節重大者外送平台業者死得終止外送服務契約啊"},{"start":33314.952,"end":33340.227,"text":"是違反外送服務契約也就是說外送員他的行為他沒有構成違法但是他的行為已經明顯的構成違反外送服務契約了那這種情形平台當然我們在聽取各方的意見平台認為外送服務契約其實針對很多外送員該有的行為準則都會在外送服務契約你在這裡多加了一個他如果違反他外送服務契約對對對"},{"start":33342.486,"end":33346.467,"text":"OK然後就可以也可以終止這樣子對對對好本席不堅持沒有意見我好那還有沒有委員有任何意見好那那這一條就照委員劉建國等16人提案通過"},{"start":33369.192,"end":33397.929,"text":"好 接下來第8條主席 各位委員我來說明一下就是有關於委員紅夢凱委員的第8條 第49頁關於委員紅夢凱的21人委員提的這樣一個提案我們的考量是因為如果這裡同意外送平台只要續名理由"},{"start":33398.709,"end":33424.728,"text":"然后30天前预告外送员就可以跟他终止契约当然第二项有提到说发给经济补偿但是我们也了解外送员他们也表达是说他们需要工作如果让外送平台业者可以只要续命旅游就可以终止的话其实我前面那一条这么严格的保障就等于白定了他就不必要前面那一条了"},{"start":33425.288,"end":33449.577,"text":"所以我們也希望外送員的工作得到保障除非外送員自己不願意繼續擔任外送那我們是不是在這裡不需要讓外送平台有個空間好像給了一筆錢就可以把它終止外送服務契約了所以這一點我們是希望能夠不予訂定請教委員們有沒有意見"},{"start":33459.107,"end":33477.017,"text":"好啊好那如果這條沒有意見的話我們就不予採納那接下來是好接下來就到第8條劉建國委員的第8第8條16人就是不版的第8條"},{"start":33480.022,"end":33505.67,"text":"主席各位委員第八條主要就是我們讓外送員有一個空間當外送平台有一些在訂定外送契約的序位表示讓外送員受損害之餘或者是外送平台違反外送服務契約或本法的規定造成損害外送員權益之餘所以可以讓外送員可以主動終止外送服務契約然後平台又必須要付給他經濟補償"},{"start":33507.23,"end":33511.579,"text":"那相關的經濟補償呢就由我們中央支付委員機關再來訂以上說明好那針對這一條有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":33521.246,"end":33539.618,"text":"好 那這個跟委員說明一下其他委員有加了一個叫做其他法令另有規定那確實我們在考慮說一個平台它違反的法令有很多種那這些法令跟外送員可能不見得有關"},{"start":33541.019,"end":33570.055,"text":"那如果外送員就說因為平台有違反其他的百百種的法令他就可以終止契約拿經濟補償可能恐怕是有點就很不確定性太大了所以我們的建議還是建立在前面兩個一個違反外送服務契約一個違反我們剛剛講的就是還是停留在外送服務契約跟本法的規定這兩項主要我們就是以這兩項為作為最主要的依據"},{"start":33571.823,"end":33599.512,"text":"但是你們這樣子會不會是過於嚴格就像剛剛我們提到的比如說如果今天有平台業者他可能對外送員有性騷或者是有其他的情況這個有在契約之內嗎所以有違反其他的法令如果他講的是合理的我覺得是不是這樣對外送員才相對比較有保障因為其他情況你真的"},{"start":33602.162,"end":33627.212,"text":"不是不是這邊是說他可以主動他可以主動去解約就是說外送員可以主動跟平台業者解約那你不能排除說因為現在也有一些女性外送員那如果他是是其他法令規定譬如他對他有一些性騷等等不禮貌你就沒有在你的除非你的契約有那麼詳細我覺得多一個其他不是是相對更有保障嗎"},{"start":33628.463,"end":33647.139,"text":"跟委員說明他也不會亂提出就是他還是要明確提出一個法令的什麼規定除了契約以外的比較明確的對譬如說對人身的騷擾或者是傷害這種這個你們報告委員我們將來會在外送服務契約裡面會訂很多有利於我們外送員的一些相關的規範"},{"start":33649.02,"end":33670.071,"text":"本法有規定很多的要求跟依據只是說違反其他法令另有規定這個範圍真的確實會太大而且這樣的一個規定不一定是跟外送有關可能跟那個公司有觸犯了我們國家很多其他很多的法律跟法令都有可能性"},{"start":33670.931,"end":33698.888,"text":"那這個情形就讓外送員可以來終止契約領取外送補償我們覺得這範圍會不會太大那我們知道委員的意思我們可以將來在外送服務契約裡面把一些很重要對於外送員的權利保障我們會在裡面訂這個而且可以跟他的外送很有關聯的事項這樣子他來舉證說我要求終止因為你違反我你跟我之間的契約的內容對啊他搞不好是霸凌或什麼"},{"start":33701.451,"end":33717.517,"text":"其實意思是說比方說假如今天平台它違反一些公私治理的法律假如其實這跟外送員本身的權益不一定有直接相關可是可是因為其他法令它的範圍就很廣"},{"start":33719.037,"end":33733.17,"text":"所以比方说如果外送平台他违反一些公司自己的法律比方说他的他的他的会计账里面有一个什么样的疏漏他有违反的某些法令他会被处罚可是外送员就可以因此来跟他解约要求经济补偿那这个范围就会很大"},{"start":33736.98,"end":33756.347,"text":"那還是我們第三項這邊可以改成說比較明確的譬如說對外送員本身產生霸凌性騷等人身對 所以我的意思是說如果委員要做這樣子的提案的方向的話我們建議是不是把要把那個範圍做一個合理的框定"},{"start":33766.24,"end":33768.944,"text":"對 但是就是說大家就可能要在這裡面做一些框定"},{"start":33773.098,"end":33800.477,"text":"謝謝委員那我們可不可以有個思考的方式就是在第二項我們最主要是要損害外送員權益的以這個為前提那我們是不是在後面就寫說違反外送服務契約或頓耗本法及其他法令自有損害外送員權益之餘也就是說我們第一個我們"},{"start":33802.778,"end":33817.303,"text":"對對然後他要嘛就違反外送服務契約要嘛違反本法要反就違反其他法律文字啦對這樣修我覺得很好那是不是請市長宣讀一下"},{"start":33821.939,"end":33833.545,"text":"第8條 第二項 外送平台業者違反外送服務契約頓好本法或其他法令規定自有損害外送員權益之餘很好 今天勞動部很有效率"},{"start":33845.865,"end":33852.63,"text":"好那這一條就有沒有其他委員有意見請洪孟愷委員發言本席針對剛剛我們討論的這個第53頁第53頁等於是第第8條"},{"start":33861.816,"end":33886.472,"text":"第八條這本席不堅持那這個就依照行政部門這邊通過但是我們能不能稍微因為我剛也一直在思考我們所謂的第五十四十八頁四十八頁剛剛行政部門講到就是劉建國委員的第七條的這個違反的這一些法令那以及第五十頁"},{"start":33888.673,"end":33905.374,"text":"就是說能不能再更明確因為我剛剛一直在思考的時候還會有一個樣態這個樣態可能我們要明確就是說現在你第7條裡面講的是說違反這相關的法律那到底是違反還是真的有判刑違反"},{"start":33906.277,"end":33926.372,"text":"好對沒有錯就是說我們當然一方面要保障消費者因為外送員如果說犯了這個性騷跟騷等等的我們絕對是不允許但另外一方面有一種狀況這也是本席一直剛剛在思考的如果說是消費者跟外送員的一個糾紛那如果假設消費者他就去投訴"},{"start":33929.083,"end":33945.63,"text":"你可以理解我消費者投訴譬如說消費者覺得說他很不舒服就是也許是外送員沒有配合他一定要送到哪裡等等的那就消費者就亂投訴那會不會導致平台就因為這樣子來去懲罰外送員他在還沒有調查釐清之前懲罰外送員"},{"start":33949.458,"end":33971.214,"text":"這過去我記得也有些相關的新聞就是說因為他有一個投訴機制那你只要你沒有配合我就拿上來然後爬樓層而且我們現在的外送平台不是只是那個一般的餐點也有商品那如果說是比較重或說比較大型的商品那他沒有送到消費者指定的地方然後讓消費者用"},{"start":33971.934,"end":33985.596,"text":"这种莫须民的罪名去投诉那会不会让平台业者马上就跟外送员解约而没有给外送员任何的申诉那外送员会觉得说他明明没做啊"},{"start":33988.076,"end":34005.909,"text":"所以說我為什麼會去提49頁的這個14條其實有一點類似說我還是要有一個緩衝期要求平台跟外送員解約的時候你也要有一個確認的時間那當然是不是一定要30日"},{"start":34007.21,"end":34030.558,"text":"不一定可是我必須要有一個防弊的機制就說不是今天消費者講了一個你違反性騷或說我覺得這個外送員我看你不順眼我就惡意搞你那我去投訴之後馬上外送平台就可以把它給解約然後變成是外送員他自己要去尋求自力救濟的管道那這個樣他也怎麼處理"},{"start":34039.065,"end":34052.976,"text":"謝謝委員我跟委員來報告第七條我們主要就認為外送員的工作非常重大所以我們在第七條的第一項就是把它可以片面終止外送服務契約做一些框架"},{"start":34053.817,"end":34070.689,"text":"一定要符合這些情節你才能夠終止外送服務契約那第二項我們最主要是希望保護他讓他再被這個終止外送契約或其他權益的不利決定就像停權因為實務上我們的外送員常常抱怨說他不當的被停權"},{"start":34071.93,"end":34090.842,"text":"當他要做這個事的時候要續名完整簡明可以理解的事由通知外送員而且我們要求平台要負舉證並不是今天外送員要自己舉證說我是沒有這個行為而是你平台要負舉證責任還有一個很重要就是我們有一個申訴機會那也請委員可以看一下我們的第9條"},{"start":34092.642,"end":34119.439,"text":"我們把申訴做得非常完整的規範特別是連停權終止外送服務契約或許多外送員的不利決定這些部分他都可以來申訴那我們也要求平台要建立申訴的制度包括誰來受理受理處理流程處理時間跟回覆方式還有一點很重要就是如果申訴後發現是誤判他還有一個補償措施我們要求外送平台要公開"},{"start":34120.64,"end":34146.031,"text":"然后最后一项就是针对我们大家最在意的就是终止契约所以我们终止契约有个独立小组来做一个审视那因为委员提的这版本我们担心就是说他只要讲理由就好了那我怕我们就担心说他讲理由他可以没有任何的要求的理由的规范跟条件跟标准那会不会降电的话反而他很容易平台就是把人给"},{"start":34147.491,"end":34172.898,"text":"送走就終止服務契約所以我們是不是還是用7跟9條來替代這樣一個條文OK所以你現在講的第9條就是在第67頁67頁第9條那就是申訴就是我們希望有個申訴制度剛剛委員講的沒有錯外送員就覺得他根本無處申訴而且根本平台也不太願意好好去審視說"},{"start":34174.198,"end":34190.354,"text":"他的行為到底有沒有這件事那有時候是消費者他們有時候覺得是消費者這個不當誤會啊然後亂申訴亂投訴所以我們希望在這套制度裡面讓外送員有一個空間機會得到一些救濟"},{"start":34192.794,"end":34213.653,"text":"是因为你已经有写到对那就是第67页的那个第三点就是进行申诉第三点其实这个就是本席刚刚所提到的就是说有些时候因为你前面的那些法令但是有些时候真的因为样态白白走当然我们要不能劣币驱逐良币所以99%可能都是"},{"start":34214.593,"end":34237.06,"text":"優良的外送員也優良的消費者但是1%我們絕對不允許那個劣質的外送員那還有有一些時候真的也是顧客他比較沒有道理這個也確實在過去的新聞裡面都有發生過所以你就變成是在這第三點就外送員跟合作廠商或消費者有外送服務爭議的時候可以啟動這所謂的申訴機制"},{"start":34241.331,"end":34265.449,"text":"那這樣其實 那連帶第九條 連帶第九條看啦對 等於是明天討論第九條的時候可以回來那如果說明天要討論第九條的時候我建議如同剛剛我們盧先生委員有提到就是說身分別的部分是不是也請行政部門能夠帶回去研議就是說因為盧先生委員他確實也站在我們原住民同胞的立場上面來保障如果說真的外送員"},{"start":34266.269,"end":34293.254,"text":"有原住民的身份那是不是在那個爭議小組裡面也要納入一個原住民的代表那這明天明天要求是不是提出來的時候你們也先做一個研議好不好以上謝謝好那這個第8條就是布版的第8條就是依照這個劉建國委員等16人提案及這個剛剛王育民委員還有仲裁委員的意見修正通過"},{"start":34297.892,"end":34313.057,"text":"好那現在因為已經處理到第8條了現在做一下決議外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等26案尚未審查完均於明日繼續審查本日會議到此結束現在休息"}]}},{"id":"17094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17094","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea66a919a0b9b1b1fb2eb2cb96cc8bbb8eb4456b5c46cbb78c490b674931ef2ade5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。八、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員李坤城等23人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十一條、第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。【第一案、第十七案至第十九案如經復議則不予審查；第二十案至第二十一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【12月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-12-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-12-03T08:35:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T12:47:00+08:00","duration":15068,"影片長度":"04:11:08","委員發言時間":"08:35:52 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合併詢答委員賴氏寶 陳超明 吳麗華 林怡瑾書面說明提案要旨內政部政務次長董建宏 原住民組委員會副主任委員杜璋梅莊報告委員蘇巧慧等十六人質詢由內政部政務次長董建宏及相關人員原住民組委員會副主任委員杜璋梅莊及相關人員答覆說明"},{"start":1665.74,"end":1679.305,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場 則外其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員高晶 宿梅 丁學忠 所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及為其答覆部分 請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢我們請問有錯誤或是疑似有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":1691.806,"end":1694.37,"text":"沒有喔 這樣我們的議事錄確定繼續進行討論署行簽讀"},{"start":1704.888,"end":1732.14,"text":"審查行政院含情審議炸氣犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員王定宇等18人 拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第54條條文修正草案 繼續審查委員廖先祥等18人 拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案繼續審查委員張宏祿等30人 委員林益錦等27人 委員王逸川等16人委員陳素月等18人 分別拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案"},{"start":1733,"end":1758.876,"text":"審查臺灣民眾黨黨團 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案 審查委員王美惠等18人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第47條條文修正草案 審查委員蘇巧慧等22人 委員黃婕等21人 委員李博義等16人 分別拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案 審查委員李昆城等20人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例"},{"start":1759.336,"end":1779.782,"text":"第47條條文修正草案審查委員翁曉琳等25人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條及第44條條文修正草案審查委員翁曉琳等24人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員吳佩義等17人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案"},{"start":1780.422,"end":1808.71,"text":"審查委員賴瑞隆等十七人 委員李昆城等二十三人 分別拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案 審查委員羅志強等十九人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案 審查委員洪孟凱等十七人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十三條條文修正草案 審查委員黃婕等十六人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第三十一條 第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1811.437,"end":1825.403,"text":"本月議程所列討論的屬行合併巡打現在我們來介紹在庭的委員及列席官員第一位我們洪孟楷委員再來我們張志倫委員李柏毅委員黃婕委員"},{"start":1844.065,"end":1868.817,"text":"南內政部劉部長警政署張署長刑事警察局周局長詐欺犯罪防治中心張主任行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心王執行秘書"},{"start":1871.178,"end":1890.415,"text":"金融監督管理委員會銀行局周祖密證件期貨局黃祖密國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處蔡處長基礎設施處張科長"},{"start":1901.267,"end":1929.197,"text":"數位發展部數位產業署防護署長法務部徐政務次長我們的主任 劉主任檢察官經濟部商業發展署李組長"},{"start":1932.113,"end":1959.15,"text":"交通部交通科技及資訊師理事長農業部農業金融署勞務組長財政部官務署楊檢任司法院刑事庭顧副廳長"},{"start":1963.224,"end":1981.4,"text":"吳法官民事廳毛法官司法行政廳李法官各自保護委員會籌備處法治事務組林組長"},{"start":1990.17,"end":1997.294,"text":"現在我們提案說明剛才所定義的題為我們請李博裕委員提案說明全民打炸 全民防炸這是一條永遠不會停下來的路"},{"start":2017.791,"end":2044.061,"text":"所以我今天特別為被害人來對於防詐條例第46、47條來提出這個修正的草案的說明原本的草案裡面是針對詐欺犯罪的行為人的檢刑跟免刑要件只有自首或者是自白並自動繳交犯罪所得並沒有對於被害人的賠償有什麼要件所以我提案的內容裡面包含第46條的"},{"start":2045.581,"end":2070.314,"text":"自己去自首的除了要繳交犯罪所得以外更應該要積極賠償被害人所受的損害並由法院審酌其賠償才可以得到減刑或免刑第47條是針對已經被抓到了他才認罪的必須要全額填補被害人所受的損害或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減刑"},{"start":2071.434,"end":2094.213,"text":"我們除了要重視自首自白對詐騙的這個偵查以外更應該重視被害人對被害人的權利的賠償詐騙集團就算只是車手也是殘害被害人的一份子要有更積極的作為來補償被害人才可以獲得減刑否則打詐這一條路上永遠會有漏洞謝謝"},{"start":2097.268,"end":2101.973,"text":"謝謝我們感謝李博義提案說明我們請黃姐委員提案說明"},{"start":2111.055,"end":2138.916,"text":"好 謝謝主席我在這邊提一下我的提案說明我的提案其實分成兩個部分第一個是針對這個最高法院4096號裡面裁定說詐欺犯只要找回個人犯罪所得就可以減刑這件事情那其實這件事情在社會上也引起嘩然覺得說哇 原來現在不管你是車手還是說這個詐騙產業鏈裡面的任何一份子只要你可以繳部分的所得用非常少的錢就可以換減刑"},{"start":2140.217,"end":2160.036,"text":"那這個對被害人來說非常非常的不公平所以我提案修正46跟47條嚴格規定如果被告要爭取減刑必須要把被害人因本案所交付的全部的財物都進行無條件的提存或者是你要必須支付這個進行調解或和解的全部的金額"},{"start":2160.857,"end":2187.711,"text":"這就是這一次修法最重要的其中一條就是大家的立場都很清楚就是不能讓任何一個這個詐騙集團的任何一份子就算你是車手 車手都讓你輕易的脫罪那另外一個部分跟大家比較不一樣的是我有加強網路廣告的透明化我是參考歐盟的數位服務法裡面的精神修正第31條要求網路的廣告平台的業者必須要建置公開的廣告庫"},{"start":2189.412,"end":2207.269,"text":"强制揭露你广告的推播的参数例如说你的广告推播的年龄性别地理位置等等还有刊登的时间跟触及的数据让相关的研究机构跟我们的执法单位都可以来分析你的诈骗的路径跟你针对的对象是不是真的投其所好"},{"start":2207.97,"end":2212.892,"text":"那還有另外一部分是因為很多詐騙其實都會偽裝成他的試用心得或是什麼投顧專家財經專家等等用這樣的方式用網紅的方式變成一個業配文但是這樣的廣告其實是沒有規範的所以我也增訂了31條之一建立創作者主動申報跟使用者的檢舉機制如果發現應該要標示而未標示的廣告內容就像我說的"},{"start":2234.062,"end":2262.665,"text":"他明明就是廣告可是他假裝是一般的使用心得假裝是投顧的專家財經的專家來告訴你說這是他的經驗那民眾其實可以通知平台來處理告訴大家這個就是業配這就是廣告這個明明內容就是涉及詐騙那如果平台沒有依規定來處置的話也可以面臨20到500萬元之間的罰還來杜絕這些假推薦真詐騙的情形以上 謝謝"},{"start":2264.514,"end":2271.399,"text":"主席各位同仁以及我們行政官員詐騙零容忍絕對不是口號而是實在的行動過去幾年台灣社會受到詐騙的衝擊真的非常的嚴峻說是民怨第一名絕對不為過"},{"start":2293.683,"end":2322.903,"text":"而更重要近期有媒體報導做民調高達九成二92%的台灣人民都認為現在台灣詐騙非常嚴峻所以很嚴肅的指出新型態的電信詐騙犯罪就是動搖社會信任侵害人民財產權的嚴峻問題我們不分黨派朝野就是要共同面對並且築起一道又一道的牆讓詐騙集團付出應有的成本"},{"start":2323.308,"end":2349.074,"text":"代價還一般無辜的民眾的權益清白所以針對今年8月在打詐2.0的專案報告的時候本席就已經有向行政院長跟法務部長提出要求應該是要針對詐騙所得犯罪修法追討騙多少欠多少罰多少這才是正本清源的做法而今天"},{"start":2349.639,"end":2377.24,"text":"本席以及我們立院的同仁大家都有針對不管是43條、44條或是46、47等相關的修法本席所提出43條的修法就是希望能夠加重處分的密度最大程度強化對於人民財產權的保障因此確保刑法所造成的損害結果具備高度的罪責相當性這是我們43條修法的精神跟態度"},{"start":2377.717,"end":2387.531,"text":"主張階級化的刑事處罰機制讓詐騙犯罪所造成被害者的財損結果明確分為三個階段的懲戒等級"},{"start":2388.393,"end":2407.76,"text":"第一集如果說詐騙損害達500萬以上者要加重處分3年以上10年以下有期徒刑並併科3000萬元以下罰金第二集如果說詐騙損害達1000萬以上者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑並併科3億元以下罰金"},{"start":2408.4,"end":2437.292,"text":"第三级最高如果达新台币1亿元以上的财产损害针对这种社会经济秩序造成严重侵害的犯罪行为要处7年以上有期徒刑并且并科5亿以下罚金透过阶级跟提高刑罚密度的设计传达一个清晰且坚定的信号就是国家绝不容许任何不法手段获取暴力的诈骗行为"},{"start":2437.799,"end":2463.685,"text":"中華民國絕對不是話外之地任何詐騙犯我們都絕對嚴正拒絕另外本席也看到我們行政部門的修法建議其實也是認同並且希望能夠增加重刑責為要件是要有行政院跟司法院的相關版本本席予以尊重但刑責輕重的部分"},{"start":2464.861,"end":2493.562,"text":"法務部內政部尊重內政委員會的審查結果我們也希望能夠尊重委員們所提出來最重的刑責處分最後我們也必須要說這只是一部那另外包括本席所提出來現在看到新加坡有針對詐騙犯打詐來實施邊行的制度來嚇阻詐騙再次在新加坡發生也已經三讀立法通過"},{"start":2494.557,"end":2522.938,"text":"快兩個月的時間了本席一而再再三強調我們的相關法務部門司法部門以及警察部門都應該要具體的去了解到底新加坡他們針對這樣的一個打詐行為上路之後有沒有具體在短期之內有獲得成效而可以進一步當作是我國立法後續未來的參考我們再一次強調我相信在這個委員會裡面"},{"start":2523.973,"end":2534.804,"text":"不分黨派 大家都共同厭惡詐騙 堵絕詐騙 打擊詐騙這是我們共同的使命不會停止感謝王美惠委員所排案我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝我們感謝洪孟愷委員提案說明我們現在由劉部長報告"},{"start":2554.472,"end":2571.051,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好首先感謝各位委員對於打擊詐欺犯罪的重視跟關心而且對於內政部跟所屬業務上的支持跟指導那內政部就報告如下請各位委員可以予以指導"},{"start":2572.112,"end":2588.11,"text":"為了防治及打擊詐欺犯罪危害我國在去年的時候制定詐欺犯罪危害防治條例並且同時修正洗錢防治法刑事訴訟法與通訊保障及監察法等打詐刑事法"},{"start":2588.77,"end":2605.291,"text":"樹立了打詐法治新里程碑也非常謝謝立法院各位立法先進的支持與鼓勵那本詐欺犯罪危害防治條例由內政部擔任中央主管機關並且由金融監督管理委員會國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":2606.873,"end":2626.491,"text":"數位發展部以及法務部依照業務執掌分別擔任各個目的事業主管機關主政不同的章節以及相關的條文那這次的會議審查本條例的部分條文修正草案分別就屬第二章救援防詐機制第三章溯源打詐執法"},{"start":2627.432,"end":2648.297,"text":"以及第四章詐欺犯罪被害人保護雖然分別由金管會 訴發部以及法務部負責主政但是部分條文在執行上涉及警察機關以及相關機關的配合事項所以由本部防治及打擊詐欺犯罪工作上推動是相當的密切的從"},{"start":2650.037,"end":2674.546,"text":"本條例施行以來內政部積極在落實相關的規定跟執行經過分析165打詐儀表版的數據今年11月平均每天受理的詐騙件數為452件每天每日的平均每日的財損是新台幣1億9970萬較去年同期每日受理的606件有下降25%那"},{"start":2676.747,"end":2699.526,"text":"去年的這個時期的每日財損是四億兩千兩百五十三有下降百分之五十二顯示行政院的執政團隊在執行本條例及持續推動上面的已經略具初步的成效能夠有效的抑制詐欺犯罪發生與財損但是呢我們並不以此為滿從去年的一月到十月內政部跟"},{"start":2700.066,"end":2724.825,"text":"各部會相關的防詐關鍵業者來合作在市詐的宣導方面防詐資訊觸及已經有高達一億七千零九萬人次全班攔阻有一百一十六億九千八百四十八萬餘元較去年同期瀏覽有增加百分之十二那一六五的打詐儀表板網站上線以後呢已經突破了四百九十三萬人次的瀏覽在賭詐方面"},{"start":2726.846,"end":2752.494,"text":"一共攔阻了釣魚簡訊有一千八百四十八萬則攔阻境外來電有三百二十萬餘通通報停話或斷話總共有四千三百六十二門在防詐方面收報涉詐廣告有七萬餘則包括meta涉詐訊息有十三十四萬餘則就meta違法部分函請速發部裁罰了一千八百五十萬元"},{"start":2753.354,"end":2772.51,"text":"通報涉詐網站或網域停止解析有3萬餘件停權涉詐LINE的帳號有8萬餘件函與LINE的公司來合作將7.3萬個涉詐帳號予以停權以及下架涉APP817件在主詐方面"},{"start":2773.671,"end":2800.433,"text":"內政部的警政署都同各直轄縣市政府警察機關運用金流資訊流以及物流等多元管道主動查找疑似被害人本年也就是今年1月到10月已經通報了三萬四千件約七成的被害人能夠意識遭詐而停止匯款成功的攔阻金額達一億七千餘萬元平均可減少約六成的財產損失"},{"start":2801.914,"end":2822.672,"text":"有效降低受害者的损失另外在办理警示账户或账号剩余款项的发还作业已经成功发还金额达4亿余元左右在惩诈部分今年1月到10月侦破诈欺集团3337团查获犯嫌一共有27496人"},{"start":2825.655,"end":2844.107,"text":"查扣不法所得一百億五千四百四十三萬餘元令本部的警政署亦都同各警察機關破獲多起重大詐欺犯罪案件以及規劃專案掃蕩具有豐碩的成效也請各位委員多加指導"},{"start":2844.847,"end":2871.361,"text":"有關各黨團及委員擬拒本條例部分條文修正草案的部分對於防止詐欺犯罪以及保障民眾權益的用心內政部深感敬佩對於加強金融及數位經濟產業的防詐措施加重犯嫌刑責 附加禁車規定以及保障被害人獲得損害賠償的良善利益內政部競表贊同"},{"start":2872.381,"end":2896.733,"text":"本條例在去年經過大院、司法院以及行政院共同合作完成制定從113年7月31日奉總統公布施行以後各部會具以訂定相關的執法及配套措施並且落實執行已經發揮初步的抑制、詐欺犯罪的效果在執行面上面隨著詐欺模式不斷的演化"},{"start":2897.253,"end":2924.008,"text":"行政院團隊也持續檢討本條例落實的情形以及研議精進各項防堵措施及時因應新型態的詐欺模式本次行政院所凝聚的本條例部分條文修正草案也經過各部會盤點並且有把精進之處加以說明為了保障人民財產安全與端正社會善良風氣期盼各位委員可以共同支持以上簡要的報告"},{"start":2924.628,"end":2939.014,"text":"也謝謝召委以及各位委員可以多餘指教敬祝大家身體健康 萬事如意謝謝謝謝 我們感謝劉部長的報告我們請法務部徐政務次長報告主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席代表本部報告並備諮詢"},{"start":2953.98,"end":2980.01,"text":"之報告如下 敬請指教一 感謝各位委員長期關心打擊詐欺犯罪議題各位委員所提的草案修法的方向均在嚴懲詐欺犯罪及強化填補被害人損害以呼應國人打詐政策目標維護民眾財產安全本部對於委員提案版本的修正目的均表支持 贊同"},{"start":2980.745,"end":3009.922,"text":"那尊重主管機關政策的意見及大院決定6月25號併案審查六案意見請參考前次書面報告本部對於本次會議新增14案提案內容意見也請參考手邊的書面報告第二以下說明行政月十四114年11月13號含請大院審議版本是為了解決實務執法面臨的議題所做的修正"},{"start":3010.407,"end":3030.585,"text":"那涉及溯源打詐執法部分共有三大修正重點敬請各位委員不吝指教及支持第一在草案第43條44條那針對高額詐欺犯罪提高法定刑責加速嚴懲重罰以嚇阻不法第二"},{"start":3031.4,"end":3059.398,"text":"為了加速填補被害人損害修正草案第46條47條自首自白且於一定期間內賠償條和解權額的人使有獲得法院裁量減免刑責寬點之可能第三在50條第二項增訂禁車條款那作為良形參考的標準本部身為打詐國家對懲詐面向主責機關"},{"start":3060.764,"end":3088.111,"text":"將持續督導台高檢帶領檢警調機關結合其他打詐國家隊的成員透過行事及行政分進合集強化公司合作嚴密防詐網絡防堵詐欺犯行貫徹打詐綱領2.0終止以減少詐欺犯罪數以及民眾的損害使人民有感政府打詐之決心以上 謝謝"},{"start":3092.402,"end":3099.104,"text":"謝謝我們感謝徐政務次長的報告現在其他單位的報告請委員自己自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們來進行諮詢委員諮詢前嚴厲做規範"},{"start":3113.945,"end":3119.807,"text":"算過本會議委員發言的時間5分鐘必要時我們延長2分鐘會議本會議委員發言的時間5分鐘可以在10點30分截止發言登記本組會議要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":3139.946,"end":3145.871,"text":"我們現在來進行詢問我們這裡定期為李博義委員發言我先請刑事局長還有抒發部產業署副署長副署長抒發部"},{"start":3183.23,"end":3209.001,"text":"謝謝副署長周局長你聽一下你參考一下接下來我要對副署長所提出來的這些內容副署長請問一下我們蘇巴部有沒有做統計台灣的詐騙在網路裡面詐騙最多來自哪一個公司如果說刊登網路廣告平台的部分的話我們最多看到刊登最多是在Meta"},{"start":3209.386,"end":3237.701,"text":"Meta大概有多少的比例是來自Meta這些如果依照我們目前每週在做的統計Meta大概90幾%90幾% 是 嚇死人那我們有什麼相關的這些可以約束Meta針對它的這些廣告商等等的這些有什麼樣的裁罰我們目前有沒有對廣告商的裁罰嗎我們目前有沒有對於這個平台"},{"start":3238.291,"end":3267.285,"text":"它已經造成這麼多的詐騙廣告在它平台上面流通那我們針對這個平台或者是對這些廣告我們有什麼約制或裁罰的能力好的 我們謝謝我們的打詐專法去年的一個通過所以我們有幸可以請這個網路廣告平台業他們能夠被我們納管以後在台灣他能夠設立法律代表人然後讓我們的文件收送能夠有一個"},{"start":3268.015,"end":3293.621,"text":"有沒有裁罰有沒有裁罰他的能力有的我們其實事實上在這將近一年的過程當中其實事實上已經剛剛部長報告我們已經裁罰了1850萬元好來來我跟你講一下來那個副市長是在美國以及在這個歐洲那其實他裁罰的數量金額其實遠遠高於我們"},{"start":3294.768,"end":3309.086,"text":"比如說在美國他美國政府裁罰Meta因為詐騙廣告就罰了10億美元一年就罰了10億美元那歐洲呢他這個數位服務法裡面"},{"start":3309.67,"end":3327.522,"text":"它規範的這個罰則裡面是包含它全球總營收的6%如果說Meta在全球賺了1000億美金好了它是可以罰它60億美金的那所以來副市長我希望你可以研議一下"},{"start":3328.86,"end":3356.637,"text":"如果這個平台的廣告繼續還是這樣子的話那我們有什麼手段可以讓這個平台害怕因為畢竟我們是比較晚一點我講一個紀錄片給你參考一下在劍橋各自風暴裡面的David Carlos這一個劍橋大學的教授他針對Meta提出一個控告他要控告Meta到底的大數據裡面到底有多少他個人的資料"},{"start":3358.424,"end":3379.602,"text":"Meta到現在還是沒有辦法提出來但是在歐洲整個歐盟政府它產出了什麼它產出了數位服務法它產出了一般資料保護規範它約束了Meta在使用個人個資上的所有的這些行為但是在台灣有沒有辦法約束到這一些你有沒有辦法跟國人說"},{"start":3380.663,"end":3394.058,"text":"你在点选这一些可能某一些商品或者是你的兴趣的时候Meta随之而来的就是大量的这些广告当你点选这些可能投资资讯的时候"},{"start":3394.602,"end":3410.181,"text":"他伴隨帶來的這些廣告對於所有的用戶有沒有這些防止詐騙的這些功能我們有沒有辦法約束到他們這一些其實這些就是很多都是投資詐騙就是從這裡來的嘛那所以說"},{"start":3410.982,"end":3430.797,"text":"我覺得我們離進步的歐盟還有美國對於這些網路安全防止詐騙的這些手段來講我們還離很遠但是我們要不要持續的來做這才是我們要做的刑事局站在你旁邊的刑事局都是跟著在後面捕破網最後就是一句話"},{"start":3432.682,"end":3457.513,"text":"這是來自Meta的廣告或者是這是來自這些平台的這些這些不實的內容造成這些詐騙的結果不是說台灣詐騙天堂是我們有沒有能力再規範這些廣告這些不實廣告這些詐騙簡訊的這些手段是 謝謝委員給我說明的機會那事實上在這一年來我們跟Meta這邊我們其實"},{"start":3459.285,"end":3465.811,"text":"從好幾個面向來做一個處理不是Meta我想我們納管的90%的你先處理啦 其他的好 針對Meta這個部分來講呢其實我們在科技技術上面來講的話呢也有一起來做努力包括說我們自己有發展這個AI的一個巡檢的技術"},{"start":3479.142,"end":3503.417,"text":"當我們巡檢到相關的一個這個詐騙的廣告的時候要求Meta下架之外我們要求他把我們的這樣的一個詐騙的樣態作為他們自己在做AI演算的時候呢可以去事先的去做一個巡檢去下架事實上這樣的一個詐騙那你有沒有這個你剛剛講得很好我也希望你有已經有實際上他已經下架的這些數據有多少呢"},{"start":3505.089,"end":3531.946,"text":"是根據我們跟他們的了解過去他們大概在這一年下架的這個件數大概超過430萬則你認為這是正確的嗎我另外舉一個例子給你聽路透社的報導說Meta最少有10%的營收也就是台幣可能接近5000億是來自平台上投放詐騙廣告的收入那"},{"start":3535.203,"end":3561.797,"text":"還是Meta到現在到目前為止喔他還是沒有辦法提供相關的數據如同Meta針對這個劍橋大學的這個教授的指控他到最後還是沒有辦法提出他到底有多少這個教授的個人資料他到底收集了多少數據也就是說他其實還是不會跟政府老老實實的說明他到底有多少這些詐騙廣告的收入"},{"start":3562.577,"end":3578.427,"text":"或者是我們要有更多的武器才可以針對它我想這個是我們要繼續跟Meta來研究的地方要繼續做這些網路控管的地方好的 我們其實一直都有跟他們加強的聯繫不夠啦 不夠啦當然恩威並施不夠啦 謝謝我們會再努力請局長局長現在剛剛這個"},{"start":3585.767,"end":3608.472,"text":"副署長也講得很清楚大部分來自Meta的這些詐騙訊息或者是平台的這些不實的廣告警政署其實我上次跟你質詢的內容裡面也包含這些地下的放貸的組織他們其實一個集團扮演的多個角色對同樣一組人做"},{"start":3608.939,"end":3628.298,"text":"大量的資訊的借款的資訊的投放那有ABCDE分別這樣子同一個集團可以讓一個人分別簽了四五十張簽了四五十張的這個本票那其實這些源頭你也知道但是後續的這些協助被害人的這些行為也希望刑事局這邊還可以繼續加強"},{"start":3630.198,"end":3652.029,"text":"這個沒有問題我們對這些呢就是一連串的這些詐騙行為包括就是後續的這些不管是抵押不動產或者是去解除這個受刑的這個定存的部分我們都會做全力的來查緝包括你剛剛委員所提的這些詐騙集團後續的這個地下錢莊這個部分我們都全力查緝的好謝謝辛苦謝謝謝謝感謝李博弈這屬我們家張志倫委員"},{"start":3665.967,"end":3670.939,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早有請內政部劉部長跟警政署張署長請保重請署長張署長"},{"start":3677.306,"end":3698.505,"text":"張委員長謝謝部長跟署長我想要先請教在今年的2月的時候有頒布了一個新的命令有關於警察的輪休制度特別要求警察人員的休假天數要完全的比照行政院人事總署的公務人員辦公日曆表這個規定"},{"start":3700.226,"end":3725.22,"text":"那這個規定讓基層警員炸鍋為什麼呢因為大家都知道現在一般公務員跟我們的警察員都非常的辛苦可是一般公務員他是週休二日以及見紅就休國定假日就休假可是警察的輪休是日夜顛倒所以我們常說警察是日夜顛倒風吹日晒非常的辛苦可是現在居然要求兩邊的休假天數要一模一樣可是"},{"start":3725.74,"end":3753.694,"text":"就在天數一模一樣沒有辦法達到同樣的休假的效果這是不公平的比較那所以我要想要請教署長跟部長你認為你們現在頒布這個命令要求警察要完全比照公務人員的休假尤其警察有時候是大夜班他們的輪休已經是非常的破碎式的輪休品質非常不好那請問部長跟署長你們知道現在基層警員的心聲跟他們的心都涼了一半的心聲嗎"},{"start":3755.355,"end":3779.602,"text":"謝謝委員 我想外勤的通常真的是非常辛苦因為他是採輪班制的他的上班當然就是跟一般的公務人員的上班的狀況不一樣就好像比如跟當在醫療機構相同比如大夜班隔天休假根本就是沒有辦法好好休假就是要補休睡覺因為這個是我們勤務的一個性質就是工作勤務的性質"},{"start":3780.342,"end":3803.019,"text":"那我們的這個輪休的這個中央每個禮拜也是要兩天的這個輪休兩日輪休那我們是依照這個我們值班輪休的一個要點來做一個實施以前就是照這個要點嘛那怎麼會大家上班完以後我請教署長大家上班完以後依照我們警察這個大家的頒布的規定輪休完以後居然到最後跟大家講說你要來補要還價"},{"start":3804.964,"end":3818.024,"text":"要把他的這個休假給扣掉這樣子的做法您的認同嗎我跟委員報告一下就是說我們當然就是以這個輪班制的方式那每天大概以8個小時必要可以延長2到4個小時"},{"start":3820.347,"end":3844.646,"text":"那我們也是有規範他連續要休息11個小時這個規範那我想就因為是警察工作的一個性質的情形就是沒有間斷我們也服務民眾也是二小時沒有做間斷這是工作的一個狀況所以那署長你認同你認同剛剛我們這樣討論的所以這個警察基層同仁照表上班啊可是上班到最後還說我放假太多叫我們要還價那"},{"start":3846.747,"end":3861.526,"text":"尤其有很多警察員加班的時數超過還會被檢討那甚至我聽到現在就是說還要這些基層警察同仁去填這個升薪假就是現在大家知道行政院有一個升薪假的規定叫他填升薪假"},{"start":3862.548,"end":3884.244,"text":"來去把這個放假比這個公務人員一般放假多一點點比如說多一兩天的就叫他去填這個身心價所以造成基層同仁覺得說我身心又沒有問題為什麼叫我填身心價我想所以署長你這邊是不是可以明確的來表示說你對這樣子的制度是不是應該要來檢討那我想就是要從各"},{"start":3885.265,"end":3905.799,"text":"各地區的這個特性來做彈性調整做規劃他的這個潛入有些就是他可能就剩上8個小時或或是10個小時就是一地區的特性來做一個一個規劃來做一個調整那我也希望就是說對於外景的同仁在於這個他的一個超時的這個"},{"start":3907.143,"end":3934.983,"text":"這個加班或者是他的這個給予如果說時間允許給予做這些補修我們都授權給各主觀來做一個彈性調整我想這個不是一個很硬式因為簡單工作本來就是20小時這個不確定性的那我想這個部分就是多照顧我們同仁的身心健康是不是拜託部長跟署長是不是給我一個承諾在三個月內來研議這種輪班的公務人員的休假的計算基數"},{"start":3935.823,"end":3958.381,"text":"是不是可以來來討論一個更合理的一個方式有機會嗎好那我們來三個月之內好不好就是千萬不要叫我們基層的員警就是照了政府照了這個警察我們大家講好的輪班制度以後還要需要再緩價這基層員警沒辦法接受好那第二個我想要請教署長的一個部分就是最近那個在昨天在"},{"start":3960.695,"end":3983.989,"text":"台北市政府的質詢裡面有提到說這個市警局現在所使用的酒測器跟酒測棒是這個中國製的這個一個狀況那當然在蔣安市長在回應跟這個台北市警察局長在詢答的時候他說這個是當時採用共同供應契約的採購案是由警政署來辦理的"},{"start":3984.622,"end":4006.509,"text":"那所以這個應該來講這個問題到底我要想請教因為當時你還不是署長嘛可是我想要請教說那這樣子這個這樣子的爆料第一個是不是真實這真的是中國製的酒測器跟酒測棒嗎然後然後是不是有洗產地的問題那現在目前這樣的這個酒測器跟酒測棒是否還有在使用那未來關於這樣洗產地的部分"},{"start":4007.289,"end":4027.778,"text":"檢證署如何處理以及現在到底有多少數量的這個酒測器跟酒測棒因為為什麼要去問這個問題因為這是違反當時的採購的這個合約裡面的規範嘛對不對好那請署長回答我就跟委員這個出貨報告這個就是共約的就是有共約是從109年才有這一些就是禁止使用中國製的這個狀況"},{"start":4029.139,"end":4034.624,"text":"那酒測器的部分我們109年才有公佈說109年那他說這個是106年的採購案所以當時這個就是沒有做這樣的規範所以當時沒有做這樣的規範所以是烏龍爆料所以我這樣子啦就是我現在簡單講這個酒測器都有不是屬沒有統一採購不過109年以後才有規範那106年以前才買的那怎麼辦"},{"start":4051.251,"end":4077.912,"text":"那九二七使用的年紀只有五年現在就沒使用了所以現在這些東西也沒有在使用沒有就是一百零六年那個就沒有在因為他九二七的使用年紀是五年所以一零九年開始到現在目前這五年內的才會有所以一零九年就是有在公約上有禁止使用中國那我們現在在做清查如果說屬實的話我們就會依法來做一個處置那我特別提醒就是因為這九二七都由各縣"},{"start":4079.233,"end":4106.556,"text":"各縣市的地方政府的警察局來採 警務署沒有採過這樣的一個器材他們的採購是從公約裡面去做採購那公約從109年就有做這一個有關這個中國的一個製的這個產品的這個禁止的規定那我們現在這個案在做調查看實際這個狀況有沒有這個是真正有用這個中國製的這個產品的一個九色器好謝謝署長意思就是說"},{"start":4107.456,"end":4131.853,"text":"如果是就是講109年以後應該是沒有這樣的問題啦那現在一般來講也沒有在使用的狀況如果發現現在地方警察局還有在使用的你們會盡早來做一個處理嗎盡早處理就禁止使用我們會再做一個處理好那最後我是不是可以請這個打詐中心的王執行長跟金管會的周祖密來最後一個問題委員好好"},{"start":4137.616,"end":4146.824,"text":"我們看到大家都對打詐非常的重視我們看到太子集團有個跨國詐騙集團把總部設在台北101吸金45億買了11棟豪宅29輛超跑等等這些問題銀行端對該集團其實有通報52次我們打詐國家隊到底如何反應請這邊是不是請打詐中心來回應第二個我要請教金管會的問題就是說"},{"start":4163.171,"end":4190.502,"text":"我們認為政府對打詐對這些打詐的大鱷魚沒有辦法處理可是對小百姓窮追猛打這之前我也特別提出今晚會是不是對於這個有關於人民的帳戶於而第九位使用的無預警凍結早是這個很多人的這個帳戶沒辦法去做使用是不是對這兩個問題可以請你們說明一下跟委員報告有關於太子集團在台灣洗錢的案件"},{"start":4191.38,"end":4218.878,"text":"我們分析其最大原因是他是利用人頭公司來進行犯罪然後在人頭公司來洗錢部分那至於在上個禮拜的時候那個政務委員有召開相關會議然後就是會針對公司的一些包括喬外資之後的最終收益人來進行研議看如何把最終收益人列在相關的法令另外的部分因為其實包括經濟部還有其他部會相關的"},{"start":4219.795,"end":4233.921,"text":"就是資料庫的部分因為是沒有共用沒有就是沒有互相流通我們也是演演繹比如說這樣像比如說有人頭帳戶前科的告誡的資料可以讓經濟部來審查相關的公司的登記好謝謝那最後請經管會"},{"start":4237.443,"end":4266.765,"text":"現在對於一般民眾的帳戶你們到底是如何處理是不是都把餘額低跟未久使用的帳戶全部凍結是 委員好那個銀行這個凍結這個動作其實就是基於我們打大專法他會主動偵查有疑似可能受到詐騙的風險的可能但是如果全部凍結那確實是不符合比例原則這個部分我們都會請銀行一定要去第一個就是要要有精準的判斷第二個就是說要有給客戶一個"},{"start":4267.969,"end":4282.437,"text":"申訴的一個明確的窗口要迅速處理如何申訴銀行都會建立一個窗口就是專職的窗口去接受這樣相關的案件去申訴那如果申訴他銀行會再把他解控"},{"start":4282.918,"end":4304.634,"text":"如果說是有明確的理由的話那這個部分我們都會持續請銀行來優化他相關偵測疑似詐欺賬戶的一些做法因為本席收到很多的這個民眾陳情啊希望你們再好好來不要打詐打到一般無辜民眾 拜託一下 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員 我們家黃姐委員"},{"start":4313.137,"end":4318.77,"text":"好 謝主席 我們先請法務部徐政次安家徐政次委員長"},{"start":4323.567,"end":4345.486,"text":"好 徐政慈早安今天這個修法其實我相信其實不分黨派大家都已經有基本的共識了那其實大家都有提出版本那朝野其實差不多方向已經很一致那只是在技術上我在這邊請教兩個意見啦因為在證券版裡面有規定說這個被告是要在檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起六個月內"},{"start":4346.607,"end":4363.037,"text":"就是要付全額然後才可以減輕其刑嘛那當然這個其實大家會覺得說這應該是一個好的方向因為說希望不論是這個詐騙集團的哪一個角色就算你是車手你也有這樣的責任要去把相關的金額負擔出來然後"},{"start":4364.358,"end":4385.817,"text":"要去保障這個被害人但是實務上我要請教的第一個就是說六個月到底夠不夠因為其實有一些委員的版本裡面把和解最後的時間點是放在第一審的言辭辯論終結前來達成調解那司法院的意見有提到說通常詐騙的案件第一審通常的辦案期間是兩年四個月"},{"start":4386.798,"end":4401.482,"text":"所以呢那有些人就是說啊這個對受害人來說太久了那所以這個時間點到底要定在哪裡會是一個比較好的時間點這個第一個請教證詞另外一個就是說如果六個月內時間太短了然後車手就是說我抽不出來那不然你關我好了"},{"start":4403.863,"end":4428.883,"text":"那會不會最後說其實最後真的關到的就是這一些大家知道說最後就是車手出來擔那沒有辦法往上追或者是說這個錢最後又被脫產那被害人也拿不到錢然後車手也關了也關了但是最後這些詐騙集團的主謀都沒有辦法往上追這兩個技術的意見我希望你們可以再進一步的討論找出一個最好的可以實務上解決詐騙案件的這個方式好 簡單回應好"},{"start":4433.993,"end":4459.018,"text":"謝謝委員我想這是一個寬點就是說在某些條件之下我們願意給他減輕期刑那這個寬點的寬跟窄就會牽涉到被害人多久可以拿到這些錢以前如果你沒有規定你說是延遲辯論還有一審延遲辯論跟二審那如果到二審一審的有人就不和解了他會等到二審的時候我再來和解你判我有罪我來和解"},{"start":4459.478,"end":4481.659,"text":"所以这个就会一直拖一直拉那你一审的辩论终结像刚才讲到有些案子他真的拖两年我们的被害人能等吗所以我们是抓跟司法院讨论的结果就是我们抓一个大家比较能够接受一般的案件侦查大概三个月审判三个月加起来大概是六个月希望在第一审的辩论终结以前就有一个结论"},{"start":4482.239,"end":4497.98,"text":"所以這個是我們抓六個月的時間當然它有可能少於一般簡單的案件就多於一般簡單案件可是少於複雜的案件但是我們是從裡面抓一個一般被害人可能可以比較快速的得到賠償的一個時間"},{"start":4502.224,"end":4524.729,"text":"我希望的是實務上真的要拿得到錢啦不要說到時候車手說我就是籌不出來然後被害人也說那就是我沒有辦法被保護然後錢也拿不到然後最後車手自己也沒辦法減刑然後結果最後一場空我比較怕是這樣那當然我覺得這個加配集團任何一份子當然都要用最嚴格的方式去處理啦"},{"start":4525.689,"end":4548.602,"text":"對啊所以我是希望到時候實務上看跟內政部可不可以再討論一下實務上有沒有可以更精進的技術上的可以處理的方式那法律上當然這樣定就這樣定下去沒有問題好謝謝鄭次那再來我們請訴發部請訴發部那個是負數位對產業署的副署長嗎小心"},{"start":4552.348,"end":4572.571,"text":"好副所長在這邊請教我剛剛其實提案的說明有提到說我希望增加兩個部分一個是廣告的透明化就是說在廣告的推播的參數上面他必須要揭露更多的資訊因為其實我知道說現在打架專法31條已經有基本的資訊包括說現在你剛說的九成以上的meta"},{"start":4573.092,"end":4586.297,"text":"然後其實TikTok然後Google YouTube LINE這些平台都必須要有基本它是廣告就要有刊登者出資者這一些基本的資料但我希望接下來是包括說它的一些參數設定廣告刊登的時間然後這個廣告沒有違反過相關的規定然後觸及的人數等等"},{"start":4592.219,"end":4618.339,"text":"都可以相關提供一個廣告庫那另外一個就是要杜絕這些剛剛其實有委員提到灰色廣告的部分就是他就是假推薦真詐騙假推薦真詐騙這種其實非常多而且是一個非常主要的詐騙的類型他就是說他就是一些專家教你要投顧然後在網路上有各式各樣這種你就是加入我們的群組然後用一些小網紅然後讓你"},{"start":4620.48,"end":4623.741,"text":"說你就是加入我們那最後你錢騙到手了那最後他們是沒有辦法被你們規範在所謂的詐騙廣告裡面的是因為他們的這個跟詐騙集團的關係是那個網紅本身是這一些是這個財經專家本身而不是廣告"},{"start":4638.306,"end":4642.768,"text":"所以會變成說他是假假網紅之名他就是真業配那其實內容都是詐騙這些就沒有辦法在你們目前的規範裡面可是我看到書發布的意見卻認為說這個你們不想管是這樣子嗎"},{"start":4655.533,"end":4671.003,"text":"報告委員這個其實不是不想管啦我想其實我們管理的是網路廣告平台業那剛剛其實委員提到的這個部分的廣告的管理其實事實上目前已經也有公平交易法相關的規範可以去做處理"},{"start":4671.443,"end":4686.796,"text":"那另外呢其實事實上我們的網路我們有做了一個網路通報查詢網針對於民眾所通報的不管是詐騙的廣告或者是訊息我們事實上都可以要求這個網路廣告平台業者去進行下架可是像我剛剛說的這種類型是"},{"start":4689.498,"end":4711.763,"text":"假業配真詐騙的這種類型並沒有規範進去那這種灰色廣告現在其實是詐騙手法非常主流的一種方式那你們的方式其實就是在告訴詐騙集團說你不要付錢給平台你付錢給這些網紅就好因為你的廣告費不是給平台可是給這些網紅他一樣可以刊登啊"},{"start":4713.023,"end":4735.431,"text":"然後看燈丸其實因為這些平台他們的紅利就是來自於使用者的數據流量可是現在他們換一種方式去規避你們的廣告揭露就好了耶事實上我們的這個詐騙的就是打詐專法的第33條針對於不實的訊息也是可以去要求他們來進行下架的部分"},{"start":4736.371,"end":4756.181,"text":"所以我其實在我有提我自己的修法的版本那我希望說訴法部就是就我以上的意見可以把它納入法律的規範裡面我們來研究一下因為我其實看過你們的報告啦你們給我的回覆我非常的不滿意因為等於是你們看起來完全沒有意願要處理"},{"start":4758.267,"end":4774.221,"text":"而且非常的消極甚至是我提到這個廣告庫的部分你們是告訴我什麼你們是跟我說就是說這個不是你們的責任啊然後看起來是都是認為說就是接下來都是丟給警察就好了"},{"start":4774.801,"end":4801.826,"text":"不是事實上委員沒有啊就我看到報告的我的感覺是這樣啊你們聽起來就是覺得說剩下都是後端的事情都是警察要不要處理如果他要處理他就想辦法跟這些平台業者去調數據去調閱這些相關的資料就好那你們不想要從頭來管理這些平台揭露的責任委員不是這樣子的我想其實因為當初在這個打炸專法裡面其實我們規範的是網路廣告平台業者"},{"start":4802.911,"end":4829.999,"text":"確實是有對價關係但是呢對於這個沒有對價關係的不實訊息事實上在第33條還是有去進行處理的我們還是可以依照就是說當這個詐騙的訊息是確定的我們還是可以要求網路廣告平台業者去進行下架我們可以看到說近一年來事實上詐騙的廣告真的已經是大幅的下降但是因為詐騙的集團他其實事實上就像那個變形蟲一樣他可能就會從線上"},{"start":4831.079,"end":4855.056,"text":"变成线下来进行这个民众的一个诈骗所以有关这个部分来讲的话我们目前其实事实上不管是在这个通报下架之外呢我们也一直不断的去这个教导民众要如何去试架你觉得社群广告的社群媒体中的广告更透明化有没有助于诈骗的防治"},{"start":4855.996,"end":4866.23,"text":"我想透明化絕對是有助於這個是嗎所以這個是我們的目標那現在其實歐盟都已經有相關的法律規範了為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到"},{"start":4867.69,"end":4884.684,"text":"委員我想我們只是針對說委員這邊提到說這個資料庫可能需要去對 所以為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到因為我們也是希望說詐騙的廣告應該是即時下架不要讓民眾長時間的去接觸這個不會出現在使用者的動態頁面上面你是不是沒有看你有看懂歐盟的做法嗎這個不是說讓這些廣告繼續放著讓使用者看"},{"start":4895.353,"end":4905.262,"text":"是好啦時間已經到了但我現在我覺得現在書書發布很顯然還是搞不清楚狀況你們先研究一下歐盟的做法我們就是希望跟歐盟比較辦理就這麼簡單就這麼簡單好謝謝副所長謝謝我們感謝黃建武委員"},{"start":4930.404,"end":4932.485,"text":"好我們請汪媒會召委主席我們請金融他就請塔杜瓦蘇發部委好請蘇發部的黃副署長然後金融監管會的周祖密老闆"},{"start":4959.977,"end":4963.638,"text":"在這本市要先幫你探討一下我們的Meta 剛才有幾個委員所說的差不多方便的 都差不多在我們裡面的啦中間97% 說實在的 那怕死人的"},{"start":4978.939,"end":4983.702,"text":"尤其那個過程當中 不管是要到處也好還是要交朋友也好 這些都是在我們這個地方興奮所以你剛才有說 它就變形變色融 越變越厚 越變越厚但是是不是在你們事務部裡面"},{"start":5001.915,"end":5005.019,"text":"所做的,我們也是因為詐騙集團很多跟森林林的這個司法部的,要怎樣去截止被騙的人這才是最重要的,大家應該也知道說"},{"start":5020.373,"end":5024.499,"text":"這邊的越來越聰明越來越延伸出來越多項的檔篇但是在司法部裡面學生的感覺跟我們民意代表覺得沒什麼作用"},{"start":5038.055,"end":5061.369,"text":"其實跟委員這邊來說明一下事實上在速發部這邊主要是針對這個數位經濟的產業的這個部分我們從源頭來做一個阻斷所以其實除了剛剛講的網路廣告平台業之外事實上我們對於電商產業的這個部分早期電商有很多的個資外洩會被詐騙現在也已經下降了"},{"start":5061.989,"end":5063.731,"text":"對啦,我現在是跟你說,什麼時候做的,我們也要主任說,我比這邊集團還要厲害,我的事劃部的成立就是要超越"},{"start":5077.569,"end":5081.932,"text":"詐騙集團 所想的方法 被審的才對啦跟你說 啊 以前我們做什麼 加了多少次啊說實在 這對我們喔 現在都沒辦法啦我們也趕快去研議 超前部署你說什麼 隨便你 隨便報案的那你們都知道啊 到現在的時候"},{"start":5105.069,"end":5110.053,"text":"不然覺得有因素發佈有做什麼有出來 有啦這樣好 來 待會跟你們有所作為有做得不錯 拜託恢復到一個月後給我好 沒有問題來 我請問經管會"},{"start":5124.973,"end":5131.838,"text":"在這裏面 我要跟你談到的就是在本省的服務處常常接觸 配適你如果聽不懂我講台語的時候你可以再問幾次沒關係 大家互相因為我看你剛才這樣罵頭尖尖 我怕你聽不懂我現在的意思是要跟你說 我們有"},{"start":5151.314,"end":5156.059,"text":"帳號不管是在郵局在哪一間銀行有顯示出來的時候我們就他的帳號不能用了嘛郵局在郵局的時候半天你如果沒出入他就來你借錢他又不是本事的"},{"start":5170.953,"end":5177.337,"text":"就是覺得你們的法案這個柯子的詐騙集團騙人的帳號這本來就要處理這我不會覺得怎麼樣是你們的起訴無辜賠償的帳號給你們證實覺得這有異常啦尤其你知道嗎有的弱勢的根本他就沒有錢跟他的帳號"},{"start":5199.315,"end":5205.878,"text":"跟台灣男人一起破壞而已跟你們小孩說有問題跟他們一起不可以而已跟他們是要買政權的跟他們現在一天沒辦法去拿沒辦法去買政權回來買"},{"start":5216.764,"end":5221.346,"text":"跟他的同調 儘管的資格這延伸出來 我驚訝 你知道嗎你如果看到 你的通報警示喔181年 到182年 到183年到184年的1月到4月說實在 你如果看到無辜的給你們解除的警示有多少"},{"start":5246.869,"end":5250.352,"text":"跟你們要怎麼做 跟你們有什麼問題 跟你們要不要了解要不要去問 跟你們直接去警示 去動態這對無辜的人 生活有困難的人 這非常嚴重"},{"start":5262.762,"end":5268.144,"text":"你們是不是要去那麼準確去凍結他的帳號才對有的公司很弱勢的時候 他們去銀行問去銀行做什麼銀行都說 跟你這個帳號有問題啦 還要等地檢署判決啦跟你沒有起訴的時候 你再去銀行處理啦但是這幾個月 要叫他怎麼想法"},{"start":5292.751,"end":5310.802,"text":"是委員的那個指示我們一定會再去跟更勤銀行優化相關處理機制但是我這邊報告就是兩個方向一個就是說剛才可是銀行自己主動偵測疑似涉詐的帳號他會做部分的控管並不會凍結所有的功能"},{"start":5311.542,"end":5323.733,"text":"那這個部分我們剛才前一位委員有類似的質詢那我們大概就是說請銀行要更優化他的相關的判斷的模型跟模式我現在就是要說銀行都沒有做這個動作啦都覺得我方便就好啊正式出來的時候又來動在後面啦"},{"start":5329.878,"end":5347.622,"text":"那另外一個部分這剛才講的第一個部分是銀行主動偵測第二部分是警示賬戶警示賬戶是來自於司法警察機關他的提供所以這個部分警示賬戶變成說他如果要解除的話要司法警察機關再去通知銀行來解除這就是有問題的那些嘛還有有做到這個嘛如果是有發生真的很無奈讓銀行覺得有問題的時候當場的時候"},{"start":5359.178,"end":5368.48,"text":"這個部分因為銀行還是處於一個就整個機制來講他還是處於一個被動通知來處理的一個角色這個其實怎麼去照顧到這些比較真的是弱勢的群眾我們會再來跟警政單位來做一個溝通跟討論"},{"start":5389.468,"end":5391.851,"text":"我認為你們要去 你剛才說的 聽起來覺得說孩子如果有問題 跟他動態 如果你們有意見 你去跟孩子說孩子就來接觸 我要跟你們報告"},{"start":5404.628,"end":5420.694,"text":"因為如果是警示帳戶的話銀行就沒有辦法主動幫他解除如果是銀行自己偵測控管的話就可以所以這部分我們會再來看看怎麼我現在是要說說銀行當然有問題我們尊重司法怎麼去處理"},{"start":5424.816,"end":5425.357,"text":"因為詐騙集團的帳戶借的還是人頭的這我們百分之一百這一定要處理"},{"start":5447.815,"end":5449.877,"text":"嚴若我講的就是無辜那一家啦在這我要說咱的詐騙集團越來越嚴重了我們在"},{"start":5459.782,"end":5463.684,"text":"2023年 聯邦銀行提高額度 提款額度並解除控管 但是我們沒有審核協助詐騙集團去拿錢出來但是在2023年 中國信託"},{"start":5481.277,"end":5488.759,"text":"他的行為提供他的帳戶領域 方便詐騙集團設置再來二公二十年 已經有某一個副理涉嫌也幫詐騙集團設置"},{"start":5503.953,"end":5509.256,"text":"以前的喔 再來更恐怖的就是2005年台灣藝人兩個行員合作詐騙集團設置啦 結果在這個過程當中大家都以為台灣藝人是我們國家的耶 結果發生之後的時候你們看他所發的 加發一個2200萬"},{"start":5533.77,"end":5544.303,"text":"他這個三季收攤的錢250多億啦這樣說實在應該不會做壞事啦是跟委員報告因為我們是針對銀行的內控跟管理來做裁罰所以裁罰的主體是銀行"},{"start":5553.716,"end":5564.685,"text":"那針對涉案當事人他們會有受到相關刑事民事的罰嗎我現在就是要跟你們說 金管會你們所有的銀行 白色也最新銀行跟你們裡面的銀行在那裡設置 要找新人嗎說實在 台灣銀行不是普通的"},{"start":5575.289,"end":5578.392,"text":"台灣人是要印中華民國台灣的字做這個事情 我說不管是什麼你們政府要去研議一個附帶的制令"},{"start":5590.723,"end":5594.687,"text":"像大叔也騙人賣房子賣地這也要附帶大叔那間花園的一年也要來看不然我說實在像這個看這個沒感覺"},{"start":5609.628,"end":5612.57,"text":"跟未來 我說你們的金管會書啊 部委家我們的詐騙集團的車手 要再去捏錢你們要怎麼省錢 讓他們捏錢沒那麼方便"},{"start":5625.578,"end":5629.602,"text":"像ATM 裡面要捐贈的時候你們是不是可以做得更正確讓車手要捐贈的時候批准積分也好 他的臉孔辨識也好可以再給他 沒這麼方便啦"},{"start":5645.379,"end":5650.383,"text":"是不是我們應該要這樣做 沒說實在的 詐騙集團最方便的就是ATM去捏紙 又騙騙的 跟我來捏沒兩分鐘 所有錢就捏了所以你們在這個關卡之中 要想什麼方法去處理所以司法部跟金融的家 我們不是說要責怪你們什麼 我覺得你們有這個能力 還可以做得好 以上"},{"start":5675.987,"end":5681.689,"text":"謝謝委員好謝謝王美惠召委再來謝謝再來我們請張宏祿委員我請先請這個內政部長跟抒發部副署長加劉部長加抒發部副署長"},{"start":5709.11,"end":5733.577,"text":"委員好這個這個速發部我先請問一下現在很多AI甲的影片這個詐騙已經不只是騙錢了也騙國人的健康了這個裡面用很多名人或什麼的這樣子然後包括這個"},{"start":5736.756,"end":5753.905,"text":"不到賣藥但是就有很多什麼健康什麼的這個那你們有沒有注意到這些情況報告委員有的是有有什麼處置針對這個部分來講的話我剛剛其實提到說我們有AI的這個"},{"start":5757.024,"end":5784.345,"text":"技術來做這個自動巡檢然後如果我們有發現的時候會先請這個衛福部幫我們確認說這個是不是詐騙的這個廣告然後比如說他是詐騙的醫生或者詐騙的這個藥事相關的違反相用法令的規範的時候呢就會要求我們的網路廣告平台業者去下架並且把這樣子的一個樣態請網路廣告平台業者自動自行的去做巡檢下架那你們下架了多少"},{"start":5785.976,"end":5804.824,"text":"有要求下架的多少有没有要求下架成功过我们目前来讲已经要求下架有超过23万则的诈骗广告但是我没有办法去区分说是医疗或者是投资对 我们也要求这样我觉得"},{"start":5808.007,"end":5831.338,"text":"這個很多的數位平台或什麼這些政府不是沒有公權力去對付它只是政府的公權力沒有明顯的展現我真的覺得這個部分速發部還有各個相關的你們要拿出鐵腕政策不然我們再怎麼修法再怎麼樣你們不執行也沒有用"},{"start":5832.409,"end":5849.924,"text":"因為我們很認真在執行我跟你講你們很認真執行是你們自我感覺良好啦民眾沒有感覺你們的很多啦我必須要這樣子講我們繼續努力那我為什麼會請這個劉部長部長你們會不會擔心啦"},{"start":5854.187,"end":5866.982,"text":"有一天我們現在都在宣傳反詐騙有一天可能我們警政相關單位的人也會被用AI去製造假影片用反詐騙"},{"start":5871.431,"end":5896.81,"text":"用反詐騙去變成真詐騙你們會不會擔心擔心是不太能夠把事情處理好我們知道一定有這個方向因為我們現在有在加強科技偵查的部分AI如果有這種反反詐騙的訊息影片出來的話我們的科技偵查會先抓出來這個要點然後要做處理"},{"start":5898.212,"end":5913.554,"text":"部長 這個用反詐騙去偵查騙它的樣態是會有非常多會有非常多的我覺得我們現在包括警政署包括什麼它現在這個廣告用實例的我一直稱讚覺得很好"},{"start":5914.215,"end":5931.304,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們也可以先打預防針錢都在那邊了我們有這些廣告的投放量部長你覺得有沒有需要先打預防針要先跟所有的民眾講只要有冒充警政高層甚至部長的這一種的"},{"start":5936.021,"end":5951.968,"text":"如果他用反詐騙的然後去行徵詐騙的要先提醒民眾要預防你覺得有沒有必要謝謝委員的關心我想委員非常清楚我們以前這個打詐釋法還沒出來之前很多人是冒用名人"},{"start":5952.768,"end":5969.563,"text":"名人推荐投资现在还有现在还有很多但是这个部分在我们的这个打诈司法过了以后其实我们就是捡紧调一起来努力那未来如果AI包括说您提到了也许有生卫的影片也会出来的话我们也会提前来预防"},{"start":5971.471,"end":5986.381,"text":"先講說不太可能就好像說最近我也看到就是這個台積電的這個創辦人張忠謀先生他也對外講說他從來不會有臉書這樣一句話就已經把所有的這些所謂的詐騙用他的名字要來做這個詐騙的行為的話"},{"start":5987.822,"end":6001.19,"text":"就講完了但是大家都知道這個道高一尺謀高一丈還是會有人繼續做所以我們在網路的巡檢上面的我們的警政系統其實是非常認真在巡檢希望能夠把假的訊息或者是這種詐騙的這個影片能夠及早把它下架"},{"start":6005.805,"end":6021.396,"text":"那部長你們警政署有推一個民眾檢舉車手獎勵有這個政策那有沒有想過民眾如果檢舉像這種AI詐騙或什麼這一種的"},{"start":6022.952,"end":6038.924,"text":"也要不要也給民眾一些獎勵那要立法院支持這個獎勵金要拜託立法院支持因為我們現在獎勵金額是很多企業集團在捐款的那目前獎勵的金額大概會有一定程度啦"},{"start":6039.304,"end":6064.418,"text":"武藤先生你要獎勵五萬塊有人願意檢舉那獎勵五千塊大概不會有人要檢舉啦所以我們會來討論我覺得可以討論我覺得像不一樣我覺得可能如果真的要全民防詐啊你們有好的政策我們立法院一定支持啊對不對尤其是預算麻煩一下一定支持啊好那再來啦齁這個啊我可能請警政署長"},{"start":6065.782,"end":6091.212,"text":"那個署長我發現有越來越多這種詐騙集團他不管是車手不管或人頭或什麼的他開始找很多弱勢 聾啞人士街友什麼的這些當人頭你們有沒有發現這個問題有 我們對於這個詐騙集團他找的車手他就是不斷在演變我們有發現到這些會對這個弱勢的"},{"start":6093.473,"end":6109.885,"text":"那我想就是對於弱勢的這些的狀況我們大概就是當然就是從源頭也要是去做對於他們這一些的社福的這個團體或者就去這方面的一個加強的宣導這第一個那第二個我們當然要去做"},{"start":6110.655,"end":6128.295,"text":"查解的他的這個源頭也就是說他車手之後他的源頭到底是誰在運用這些弱勢的這個狀況那我想就是做源頭跟查解的部分來做處理這個都是你講的方法你們實際做了多少"},{"start":6130.189,"end":6150.474,"text":"我想這個部分我在做細緻的這個統計車手的這個部分到目前為止就是114年大概有朝有3萬353人這樣的一個這個狀況那有關弱勢的部分我們可能就是會後看是不是把它分析出來再提供給委員"},{"start":6153.325,"end":6171.261,"text":"我問你這個我不是要求數據署長有一個問題我認為你現在要及早處理他除了我剛講的什麼芒芽人是什麼這些之外他們已經把手伸到低收入戶去了"},{"start":6172.56,"end":6195.129,"text":"尤其很多低收入戶可能是年紀很大或什麼不知道他用另外一個他也是有可能去詐騙他而取得他的人頭帳戶他也不是本身願意的那如果低收入戶變這樣子我跟你講他有可能他的銀行被凍結被什麼他連補助比什麼他都領不到喔這個是未來我認為會很嚴重的問題喔"},{"start":6197.654,"end":6216.451,"text":"所以署長我認為這個你們要及早處理你們要跟所有社福黨或什麼你們要及早去處理這個問題不然你會衍生出非常多的社會問題署長你我們有發現就是這些弱勢的就是他有可能是被愛人"},{"start":6217.768,"end":6227.155,"text":"也可能就是不是啦這個都知道嘛你們現在有什麼具體的做法我想我的做法就是會從這一個我們的他的主政單位去了解他整個的狀況就是他的社福團體或者是他的就業服務的這個主管機關我們來就圓妥的去做去做這樣的一個宣導這種情形再來就是當然就是要偵查嘛"},{"start":6247.45,"end":6265.29,"text":"就是兩個部分一個從源頭來處理一個就是從偵查來做一個處理署長我覺得你剛剛的這個回答你已經了解了問題但聽不出來有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":6267.124,"end":6291.888,"text":"我覺得你已經發現了這個問題你跟社政跟其他單位什麼源頭什麼的我覺得我們要跟全國人講我們政府的具體作為是什麼我覺得這樣人家才有一個依循對不對這不是說你現在就馬上要怎麼樣我覺得給你三個月的時間你們去研究"},{"start":6292.489,"end":6319.761,"text":"看要去如何處理你也可以跟社政單位你只要每個月要來領錢要來什麼的我就給你一個單子前幾個我就給你一個單子現在有什麼絕對不要怎麼樣甚至在銀行發錢的時候你上面就給他寫我覺得有很多方式我覺得給你們時間你們去研究看看"},{"start":6322.237,"end":6325.64,"text":"謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長請保定"},{"start":6352.423,"end":6372.401,"text":"部長好 部長你有沒有被騙過你有沒有被詐騙過沒有 因為我比較簡約所以很少很謹慎很謹慎 但是常常看到很多詐騙所以什麼都沒有被騙過也沒有看過廣告然後所以下單買來的東西寄回來跟你不一樣我比較不會 任何一種類型都沒有我比較不會心動 電話也沒有我都沒有 沒有什麼心動 對哇 這部長你真的是一個非常簡約的人但我本人就被騙過啊而且還被騙過不只一次"},{"start":6378.587,"end":6386.45,"text":"我第一次被騙的時候就在超商2020年然後呢就是有一個包裹然後就叫我去7-11就取貨那我當然坦白講我們有時候比較忙我們可能請秘書去幫忙請 領令那秘書也不知道我買什麼他就反正就把包裹領回來一打開以後我說這怎麼我怎麼可能會買這種東西呢這種質詢台上我不想把它說出來好 總而言之我非常生氣說我就去網路查然後說遇到詐騙包裹要怎麼辦你猜網路上叫我說什麼"},{"start":6409.02,"end":6423.466,"text":"報警找當地的立法委員我很生氣所以我立刻就跟警政署內政部一直盧就覺得說連我立法委員都會收到這種詐騙包裹那到底要怎麼辦呢那時間是2020年"},{"start":6425.327,"end":6430.172,"text":"好 我們非常高興在2022年的時候政府部門內政部檢政署跟大家終於推出了跟超商物流業者推出了這樣的一個機制就是詐騙包裹處理機制也就是說呢一 你看到危險的包裹你可以不用去領直接當然這個大家現在比較有意識了"},{"start":6443.886,"end":6456.457,"text":"第二你如果真的還是領了的話那你在七天之內你可以去申請退貨有保留證據然後申請退款好不幸的我在今年呢其實又遇到了同樣的狀況我依然請秘書去領然後依然打開以後還是這是詐騙對他真的就是你是同一個秘書去領嗎同一個秘書去領對有一點那我們會跟這個秘書多溝通一下"},{"start":6467.867,"end":6472.292,"text":"本來這個就是因為已經四年了嘛所以他可能已經忘記了這樣好可是這一次因為有這個機制我們非常滿意1200就這樣拿回來了連我本人都非常非常的滿意在第二個禮拜我又收到包裹這一次我學乖了我們不會去領了因為我們就很清楚的發現這類的包裹上面雖然寫著名字可是"},{"start":6488.789,"end":6512.664,"text":"寄贱人的地方他都刚好会有一个什么危险物品啊小心轻放啊等等刚好贴在寄贱人的部分把它遮住不会很清楚所以你也很难处理你也很难退钱又不太多所以你就会觉得与其这么麻烦不如就吞了吧但非常感谢有成立了这样一个机制所以我觉得其实面对诈骗这种事情"},{"start":6513.604,"end":6520.128,"text":"防不勝防政府要做的第一件事情就是讓詐騙的資訊可以減少讓我們一般人去接觸這種資訊的機會可以變少這是第一件事情第二件事情就是真的如果不幸碰到這樣的狀況的話那政府提供了一個機制讓我被詐騙到的錢有機會可以回來坦白講比抓到他更令我高興啦那個一千二回來我的心情真的是很好"},{"start":6540.459,"end":6557.686,"text":"所以我將心比心從一個一般人民的角度來看政府最應該做的是這樣的事情不知道你同意吧是 非常同意非常同意嗎立法委員都這樣跟你說了誠摯的分享我的心情了也非常謝謝委員的對 所以我們那時候成立了這個機制我覺得真的好"},{"start":6558.266,"end":6560.768,"text":"那我們就來看我們現在還可以在做什麼我們在這個2023年的時候其實我們這樣已經打造司法這樣打造專法上路也已經超過一年了可是當時在第58條的時候有說一些特定的機制因為還需要溝通所以還暫緩實施嘛那部長我想請問一下那這一些"},{"start":6579.164,"end":6601.723,"text":"打詐專法的這些特定的狀況其實跟剛剛在說的減少詐騙的資訊被看見讓人民接觸的機會減少他接觸的機會非常非常的有關因為你看情節重大有關流量管制停止解析限制接取措施等等這些就是讓這種一夜市的詐騙廣告我可以給他限流我可以給他撤銷的這種機制"},{"start":6604.105,"end":6618.881,"text":"坦白講因為已經一年了都還沒有可以實施部長可不可以告訴我們大家問題是什麼報告委員我剛剛在報告的時候其實已經有報告過只是說我們停止這些解析或者限制接取的數量不夠多"},{"start":6619.822,"end":6638.554,"text":"也就是說我們的警政單位他是要依法來處理那如果有這樣報案確定成立的時候就會處理像我們剛剛在口頭報告也有跟委員報告過有多少間次但是間次不夠多也就是說我們提到了包括有人在反映像Meta也好 Google也好他們的廣告量真的是無限的多"},{"start":6639.294,"end":6655.769,"text":"所以我們不可能說看到Meta或看到Google不能說看到黑影就開槍我想這樣不好所以我們會跟委員講的部分就是會針對不管是情節重大的部分的規範或者是停止解析跟限制接取我們還會持續努力但是也要跟委員報告"},{"start":6656.87,"end":6672.284,"text":"詐欺犯罪違法條例不能只有這個條例包括數位管理的平台包括資通安全的管理如果這三個的法律案如果能夠告訴我們可以更加規範清楚的話那警政機關就能夠根據法律的規範可以大力來取締這些詐騙"},{"start":6674.125,"end":6684.354,"text":"我完全同意所以我們現在第一大家會覺得說你是不是專法有這個部分還沒有上路所以你沒有辦法執行讓我減低所以今天就是藉著這個機會讓部長再次的表示但就算我們能夠理解你的狀況我們還是希望這個量可以取締得更多更好啦"},{"start":6694.102,"end":6702.068,"text":"這是第一個部分好 那但是第二個部分的話我們在討論今天要修法的部分的話其實我的見解就是回到剛剛跟部長說明一開始說的對於減少詐騙資訊是一件事情但是可以返還被詐騙的金額這對被害者來講其實是更重要的狀況所以今天在修法的當中"},{"start":6716.218,"end":6735.697,"text":"我本人也提出的版本其實就是著重在這一塊我們之前的版本出現本來是希望可以讓大家吐實讓案情可以繼續追蹤但卻發生了一個漏洞嘛所以在追返金額的這個部分修法的部分部長你可以跟我們解釋一下這一次修法的部分跟追返金額的部分有沒有哪一些法條是相關的"},{"start":6737.298,"end":6763.219,"text":"好非常謝謝委員的關心我想各個委員幾乎都非常關心就是說剛剛也特別提到跟我們現在民眾他的如果被盜用或是交易糾紛或者是沒有實際交付他人使用的這個帳號能不能比較簡化他的流程讓他可以再重新使用那這個部分呢我們會把它變成說究竟向戶籍地或者是公司所在地的警察分局來申請查處如果查明屬實"},{"start":6764.54,"end":6786.114,"text":"不用等待司法終結的審判就可以解除那這個在民定三番詐騙的善意第三人案件可以進行解除的部分的話會兼顧到我們在防詐的政策跟人權保障上面那這個部分呢也要謝謝委員能夠多支持我想這個可能是未來我們要走那個方向就是大家都看到很多如果你是警示賬戶那麼多的狀況之下希望能夠趕快解除但是呢我們第一線的同仁他來告訴我的部分是這樣子就是說"},{"start":6792.998,"end":6811.521,"text":"他去警察局報案的時候他描述不清楚他就丟一個帳號說我這是警示帳號你幫我解除但是我們的警察同仁問他說那你當時在為什麼被列為警示帳號能不能提供更正確的資訊讓警察人員來協助你那這個部分我想我們未來會多做宣導跟溝通"},{"start":6812.062,"end":6834.199,"text":"好那我個人除了贊同部長你現在說的這個部分的話其實在第47條的前段規定過去是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自判如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得減輕其刑是因的這個部分那我認為這一次我們在修法把它改成得減刑我覺得這個非常好我自己提出的版本也是如此因為我們認為"},{"start":6835.04,"end":6842.582,"text":"不能夠讓他假借說我都沒有所得就原例變成說一定可以減刑這個我覺得是不恰當的在實務經過了這樣一年之後這個地方一定要改但我也更同意就是包括了部內現在提出行政院現在提出的新版本當中包含了一個新增條件就是被告在自首或自白後必須在六個月內與被害人達成和解或調解金額並全部支付"},{"start":6861.408,"end":6868.293,"text":"才能適用減刑或免刑我覺得這部分其實是很好的因為就是增加了加速填補損害這樣的狀況是 這個是我們跟司法院那個溝通以後確定下來的草案所以這個地方也是民眾一般都在反映的啦那最後最後啦再給我30秒的時間啦我想講一件事情再請部長甚至是訴發部不用上來了啦再爭取時間參考一下就是說我們現在也有很多的詐騙是涉及虛擬資產的部分"},{"start":6891.09,"end":6895.252,"text":"那虛擬資產的部分其實大家可以看到其實非常多的平台其實都是境外平台那我簡單講 本來可以講很長就是我們在2025年9月的時候金管會的最新公告的部分剛剛應該是金管會 對不起 我說錯了有18家未完成洗錢登記然後我們裁罰了6家的VSP裡面竟然有5家是在9月的時候就被金管會列入不得再提供虛擬資產服務的業者這實在是蠻荒謬的"},{"start":6919.545,"end":6924.49,"text":"就是我裁罰的六家裡面五家是說已經不得再提醒也就是說你一邊裁罰他不能來做這件事情了但他還是一直做所以你才去罰他金管會啦金管會"},{"start":6935.731,"end":6950.943,"text":"好所以我具體的建議啦我具體的建議是不是可以考慮像這個NCC在有國際來電的時候會在通話前有這個語音示警的狀況說這是國際電話請注意小心詐騙那我們是不是有機會在這種網路上面我們連進去的時候他就是可以加一個警語你即將連線的是高詐騙風險網域請小心我覺得這是技術上是可行的啦你只要回答方向不贊成技術我們可以再討論"},{"start":6967.31,"end":6992.004,"text":"是贊成另外簡單跟委員報告一下那個裁罰部分是因為他在提供服務的時候經過我們的檢查發現有缺失一律裁罰至於登記是因為在9月底之前沒有完成相關的法令程序所以包括內訌制度沒有達一個標準所以不允許他登記所以兩件事情是一個在之前一個在之後好我想這部分比較複雜你這個部分直接交報告到我們辦公室來繼續討論麻煩你謝謝也謝謝部長謝謝恭喜你都沒有被騙過"},{"start":6995.826,"end":6998.509,"text":"謝謝 感謝蘇曉慧委員 吳宗憲委員謝謝 麻煩部長還有市長還有內政部長請部長跟市長"},{"start":7023.108,"end":7037.137,"text":"謝謝兩位我想我們今天討論的是炸房條例那我想我想要提一個重點就是其實一直以來我一直主張一個很重要的點就是人民只在乎錢拿不拿的回來其實"},{"start":7038.138,"end":7055.467,"text":"被告被判多久其實不是他們那麼在乎他們只希望我錢趕快回來所以我想我還是把一個焦點要重視在我們法治的設計有沒有辦法盡量讓被害人的損失能夠被填補所以我這次看完就是院部送來的整部草案"},{"start":7056.527,"end":7074.894,"text":"雖然是利益良善我先說利益良善各位的好意我都有接受到但是因為我實務出身的我還是有一些想法我覺得如果法案這樣過可能會有一個人民沒有辦法接受的結果我先講第一個可能的結果是詐騙集團的高層拿錢換自由第二個被害人"},{"start":7075.407,"end":7100.314,"text":"一毛錢有可能會被害連一毛錢都拿不到的狀況第三個還要全民養這些詐欺犯我先趕快簡單講草案的46條跟47條規定這個六個月內自白或自首期六個月內全額那個賠清這個可以減刑那聽起來好像嚴格但是呢從被害人的角度來看這個會不會是圖利有錢能放棄底層犯會有這個風險"},{"start":7101.874,"end":7123.24,"text":"那還有就是你想啦六個月內能夠拿出一大筆錢來賠完的這個大概都是高層才做得到因為我看到依據法務部你們的犯罪狀況分析還有民間司改會的研究大部分去賣賬戶出租賬戶的都是經濟弱勢所以他們不太可能"},{"start":7123.92,"end":7149.735,"text":"在六個月內他有辦法拿到這個有辦法去把這個賠光那我們訂了一個這個六個月的期限在那裡會不會讓他們覺得說反正我六個月也賠不完算了那我就牢底坐穿就好會不會有這個狀況發生反而讓被害人拿不到錢這個是我的擔心尤其是過往我們看到很多實務上面的案例他趕快和解簽一簽然後付一兩期檢察官結案了然後他後面就不付"},{"start":7150.895,"end":7167.333,"text":"實務上常發生但是學者可能有時候會忽略掉這一塊所以我跟兩位報告有這個狀況所以今天訂了一個六個月內的全額清償這個硬性的門檻會不會讓底層的被告認為反正我六個月也賠不完我乾脆就算了不賠"},{"start":7168.12,"end":7185.883,"text":"那反而有一些被害人如果今天這個被告在接下來的一年兩年內他可以慢慢分期償還他卻因為我們訂了這個硬性的規定而他拿不到這個是我想到的很重大的一件事情"},{"start":7186.65,"end":7208.601,"text":"你們也不要覺得說每個人都一定不想賠錢有的人犯錯他確實想要補償這個被害人他會願意花一年兩年的時間慢慢去賠這個錢所以待會我會有我自己的一個建議看這個文字的部分可不可以再加以修改那第二個我還想要講一個很重要的點就是"},{"start":7210.185,"end":7220.141,"text":"我們不希望說大量的人一直都全部都一直關我們只以關人為唯一的一個解決方式然後讓監獄人滿為患目前詐欺犯戰獸行人的"},{"start":7226.201,"end":7242.826,"text":"20.8%所以算是非常非常的高那我們希望不要讓你只要今天一犯罪就進去關就好我反而更希望是他們有沒有機會在我們國家的要求之下他賺錢趕快賠給這些被害人那當然如果你不賠我就把你抓去關請說次長"},{"start":7245.293,"end":7274.038,"text":"謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的說會不會是他有想要分期付款那你這個是不是阻斷他我想六個月的時間是經過我們大概實務上看法是一般的案件大概偵查三個月審判三個月抓這個數字那以前我們操作的結果我們讓他分期付款真的他一期二期等到判決以後他就不還那會造成被害人第二次的傷害所以我覺得這種分期付款的方式是不太可靠"},{"start":7274.912,"end":7289.809,"text":"我們這裡很重要一點是他是調解跟和解的全部金額所以不見得被害人需要全部賠償沒有我待會會說我的建議文字部分你們可以參考一下那在監所的部分的話我們這裡監所在他要假釋的話"},{"start":7290.643,"end":7310.515,"text":"他這個賠償被害的也是一個一個基準之一所以這個都是有助於他來賠償因為他在監所內我剛剛講了大部分的因為貴部的報告也是大部分都是屬於經濟弱勢的人他在監獄裡面做事情一天才幾百塊一個月勞作金幾百塊賠不了被害人所以我們今天會不會是國家的這個"},{"start":7311.676,"end":7336.343,"text":"善意的運作善意的對他的刑罰我們希望為這個國家社會安全好而把他抓去關但是反而讓被害人賠不到錢這是我擔心的點從事務的角度出發但是我沒有說這些人不該嚴懲這些人本來就要嚴懲還有我不希望說就好像是說這個病人急救要超過60分鐘太久了我趕快翻床褥所以我就不救我還是希望有機會讓"},{"start":7337.935,"end":7357.507,"text":"被開的能夠拿回來錢最好你讓他晚半年拿回來他只要拿得回來他什麼都好所以我一個建議就是第一個我希望我可以研究一下有沒有可能分級去減刑研究就好就是說譬如說全額賠償的人跟至少已經賠了50%或長期願意旅行"},{"start":7360.569,"end":7383.214,"text":"就是分期賠償的有沒有不同的對待方式這沿你就好我沒有強制的要求第二個拉長期限你們說六個月對不對那會不會我們可不可以把改成40省延遲辯論終結前而不要強制定六個月當然你說這六個月是你們的那個數據上面的顯示但是如果我們把它認為把它變成是40省延遲辯論終結前會不會比較有彈性"},{"start":7386.436,"end":7400.47,"text":"這個請你們研究一下那很多時候反而有這個彈性的緩衝可以讓被告更有時間去籌錢去來賠要讓被告知道被害人的損失是我造成的我必須要負擔這個責任不好意思最後一個點"},{"start":7401.943,"end":7421.776,"text":"我一直思考大家包括今天在座行政機關我們要不要思考一個刑事禁捨令我有看到你們第50條有禁捨條款但禁捨條款它變成是一個作文比賽它變成量刑參考但是我們可不可以去思考到一個點很重要的點我實務經驗得到了一個點我們可不可以用一個如果你沒有賠完錢"},{"start":7422.833,"end":7449.081,"text":"被抓到奢侈行為我們有一個刑事禁捨令直接撤銷緩刑 撤銷假釋因為目前沒有嘛目前雖然假釋這個行政上面可以撤銷你如果和解金沒有賠可以撤銷但是我們是不是可以有一個你今天如果說騙了錢即使你有在還和解的錢可是被我發現你還在外面大手大腳的花不願意立刻拿出來賠錢我一個刑事禁捨令下去依據這個可以撤銷緩刑或撤銷假釋"},{"start":7450.489,"end":7474.611,"text":"麻煩你們研究一下我的實務經驗告訴我這個東西對打詐絕對有效請研究一下第二個如果有高額消費要直接視為犯罪所得有一些人他其實很多錢是藏在某個地方啊那等到他自由在外的時候就開始大手大腳的花那我們是不是應該要把他視為犯罪所得優先還給被害人而不要讓他再慢慢賠錢"},{"start":7476.915,"end":7494.185,"text":"我覺得這才叫做打詐打詐我絕對要求嚴懲打詐我不會反對原刑峻法但是不要留於形式主義要真的能夠有效我覺得各位很多都是實務出身的會懂我在說什麼還有法務部麻煩再次檢討一下"},{"start":7495.663,"end":7518.068,"text":"定因執行刑這個法律上的設計這是死理法因為大家都知道一罪一罰就全國國人以為說你犯越多罰越重我跟各位報告啊不是這樣啊一罪一罰確實是你犯了100條詐欺是判100條沒錯但是在最後回到定因執行刑的時候又得到一個超級黑卡金卡然後大打折"},{"start":7518.988,"end":7529.782,"text":"又回去原來的很輕所以各位才會發現我騙了100次跟騙兩次三次刑度差不多在定因執行刑的時候差不多所以定因執行刑該不該"},{"start":7531.035,"end":7553.776,"text":"一律存在或是可不可以在我們打詐的時候跟原本的其他案件脫鉤請你們要思考一下我看到的詐欺犯常常一來詐欺多到要請事務官幫我做列表他要搞一個列表才能夠看他兩三百次的詐欺然後他的前科表跟跟百科全書一樣厚他也不在乎然後反正定義執行之後又跟"},{"start":7554.817,"end":7582.806,"text":"騙一兩次的人判的一樣那詐欺集團的律師也是這樣在告訴教這些被告的反正你騙兩次跟騙五百次都判的差不多重反正定因執行刑又會回到最低了所以搞到最後根本沒有打詐的效果我在這邊點出都是實務的問題麻煩各位能夠從這地方去研擬修法不然我不好意思我只能找各位立法委員大家一起來修這個法律這就是實務上面的問題好不好"},{"start":7583.766,"end":7598.63,"text":"那再麻煩兩位能夠注意這個部分好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝我們感謝吳宗憲委員我們加麥正委員質詢我們待會到徐議政委員質詢後我們休訓五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席有請法務部次長還有警政署署長來 署長 次長"},{"start":7613.564,"end":7641.887,"text":"委員長市長早我想要請教一下我們行政院版的實務可行性我們都希望就是找抓到找拿錢找辦大家都想說就是把趕快處理但是說政府要求就是涉詐者必須在偵查中首次自白起算六個月內完成調解金額"},{"start":7643.869,"end":7671.483,"text":"賠償才能減刑對一般人或許是可行啦但是對移工完全不同的情況第一就是食物的狀況很多移工在炸團裡最低層就是跑腿呀有可能就是有幾百塊一千塊根本都沒有犯罪的所得他們也沒有語言的能力沒有法律的資源更不可能在六個月內抽到"},{"start":7672.723,"end":7682.388,"text":"賠償金所以第一件事情我想要請教一下我們法務部你有掌握就是統計數據就是移工的部分涉案的案件有多少人曾經在六個月內完成調解與賠償比例是多少如果有統計如果沒有統計的話在六個月內的門檻是不是根本沒有實質的基礎"},{"start":7700.576,"end":7713.383,"text":"在實務上有根本做不到第二個更重要的是辦案的效果如果移工無法達到六個月的門檻就自然被排除在這樣子的一個優惠自白的條件"},{"start":7717.501,"end":7732.385,"text":"所以呢他們有要配合我們辦案提出主嫌或者這樣的設計是否降低就是破案率降低追到上游的主嫌的可能性所以我們問題很簡單就是在攸關制度的成敗六個月的門檻對弱勢移工是否可行還是說反而讓破案更困難就兩個問題"},{"start":7744.52,"end":7760.801,"text":"好謝謝委員這個六個月的設計是跟司法院有研商過那一般的案件我們先講一般案件偵查我們抓三個月那審判我們抓三個月一般的案件渴望在六個月之內能夠審判就判刑"},{"start":7761.243,"end":7786.593,"text":"那我們抓這個時間就是他自白首次自白或者是自首的時候我們就抓六個月讓他清場剛才委員提到移工的問題我們這裡沒有統計的數據移工的問題的話如果說他能夠表達他的善意他告訴被害人他的情境就是說我只是因為怎麼樣而且我獲得的這個金額就是這麼多我非常的有誠意"},{"start":7787.523,"end":7813.733,"text":"我跟被害人達成和解那被害人如果能夠完全理解他的狀況他有可能不會要他高額的賠償他譬如說他真的就只有達到三千塊他願意用五千塊或一萬塊錢的損害或者就三千塊錢跟被害人達成和解我們現在講的是和解如果是這麼說因為我們也希望說因為你現在沒有統計但是我們看到報紙都什麼都說移工就是"},{"start":7814.249,"end":7825.056,"text":"最大的犯罪啊什麼所以呢如果你覺得說他就是自首就是自白但是我們偵探中首次自白當成六個月調解的"},{"start":7828.367,"end":7846.832,"text":"起算點但實際上我們在基層看到的外籍義工在警詢或者偵查的時候就聽不懂或者沒翻譯或者是說亂簽名這一個話根本對自己的自白就是有沒有這法律的效應所以我們是說想要請教的說"},{"start":7851.033,"end":7876.136,"text":"沒有充分的翻譯的自白 到底算不算有效 因為他自己講的所以刑訴明文規定自白必須是自由意識 還有就是說一個程序的正義語言都聽不懂的話 哪來的自由意志 所以我們希望的是說在自白的法律效力有沒有存在 第二個"},{"start":7876.796,"end":7886.041,"text":"如果自白本身就是有一種很多的傻刺重重能不能當作簡型的起算點起算點的一旦定錯了是不是懲罰聽不懂中文的弱勢的族群這樣子的處理"},{"start":7897.166,"end":7904.49,"text":"是不是真正的對 殺害者有幫助所以我們警政署這邊也要請說清楚目前第一線的外籍人士辦案有沒有專線 專責各種語言的辦案的團隊就是在每一次的記錄 每一次的翻譯是否就是合格口譯的 因為"},{"start":7921.159,"end":7949.767,"text":"自白都是很必要的因為要保障被害人也如果當起算點本身都不公平的話就算用程序正義去換補償或者這樣的制度能不能讓人民真的應用的到落實我希望的是說在這樣子的法律是否能理解或者自白的法律的效力在哪裡"},{"start":7950.886,"end":7976.914,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們如果查獲這一些的一個詐欺的這個犯罪不管是哪一個國籍的在偵查過程當中我們的同意是沒有問題的就是會充分的表達他的這個整個相關的整個情節那我們是有同意的包括你會粵語就粵語的同意啦英文就英文啦日文就日文啦這個同意是在執行面是沒有問題"},{"start":7978.461,"end":8006.133,"text":"因為剛才我們次長說就是馬上就可以處理所以我才要問說如果是馬上處理他們還不懂他們的因為很多人就是為了自己說脫罪啊什麼的所以他們就馬上說啊我這個我就自首但是問題我們是要要的是辦案要找到主謀嘛這個最主要的工作嘛不是說他自首就好了所以說因為這今年"},{"start":8007.113,"end":8022.121,"text":"這幾年啊 移工涉案 詐欺案的就是很多嘛因為你們的報紙一直在登所以警政署雖然已製作很多的語言宣導還有就是翻譯有這樣子的效果我一直在強調說"},{"start":8024.122,"end":8044.414,"text":"詐騙集團一直利用在台的就是所有議員來當作他們的車手當他們的詐騙集團但是我們警政署這邊有沒有個就是應用這一群在台灣的來去專門去抓這些人的我覺得才真正是你們的"},{"start":8045.194,"end":8054.936,"text":"助手啦所以但是我們看到的就是希望我們警政署就是這三年關於就是針對移工的宣導還有線上的推播總廠次還有總處級的人數按照就是越南語 泰國語 菲律賓語就是我們東南亞語的語言"},{"start":8071.779,"end":8075.303,"text":"所以我們要看到就是在媒介 紙本或者短片還是賴 實質的宣傳所以我們希望就是說移工犯罪的熱區也要有"},{"start":8086.496,"end":8089.259,"text":"就例如是桃園、中壢、台中或屏東、台南、高雄等等所以我們每次這樣子的就是宣傳有多少還有數量再說165的專線對外籍人士來的接聽或者是處理的"},{"start":8105.735,"end":8109.256,"text":"效率還有指標這些是不是署長在本會期內在書面回覆我說公開的書記因為很多人都說看到報紙看到什麼還有委員的質詢就說外國人詐騙怎麼樣但是我們希望的就是說書記不能用講的真正有書記是怎樣這樣的宣傳落地"},{"start":8132.122,"end":8158.019,"text":"因為有這些人被利用我們宣傳也要到位才能真正的解決問題主席再給我一分鐘讓他們回答好沒問題我們會後提供這個我們會提供這個相關的宣傳我們都是綿密的在做不管是我們本國籍或是或是是外籍這個我們當然這是鋪天蓋地的這樣的一個宣傳防詐的這個相關的意思了"},{"start":8158.479,"end":8178.717,"text":"那这些数据不管是在我们165这个打在这个这个仪表板啊或者是在这些聚焦的这些外企移工聚集的这些场所我们大概会透过移民署的这个整个的这个这个机制在做这样的一个宣导那确实的这个数据我们会再提供给委员"},{"start":8179.057,"end":8200.809,"text":"我再強調 移工涉案是不是就是個別的事件 而是就是我們政府長期就是以源先導希望這一塊因為我們在預算期所以我們資訊要提供中介的管理還有三大環節失靈所造成的就是制度的問題弱勢聽不懂 資訊不透明不對稱中介亂象這些就是我們的基層的要怎麼樣去協助"},{"start":8208.666,"end":8235.052,"text":"真正的主嫌不要让他们就是逍遥法外所以就是署长这边你说在三周内还是一周内可以提供给我三年以来对移工的仿造的宣传还有场次地点还有对象还有所有的内容的方式让我们也可以一并协助帮忙去做宣传因为现在宣"},{"start":8236.809,"end":8265.004,"text":"被炸的不只是我們的國人我們不管是來這邊工作讀書嫁來的被炸的真的太普遍了但是我們就看到就是宣傳不夠所以你要拿出這樣子的一個讓我們也幫你去宣傳也讓我們在台灣出一份力變成你們的小幫手這樣子的話才真正的我們是防炸消除詐騙以上 謝謝委員上個禮拜你也提供對"},{"start":8269.296,"end":8282.382,"text":"謝謝我們感謝麥正委員我們請徐議政委員接受謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有警政署張署長請保證請張署長"},{"start":8290.291,"end":8306.757,"text":"學員部長好 署長好我想部長這幾年其實政府一直把打雜當成我們重點的工程包括說五大七岸的重大政策還有跨部會跨國界跨平台的一個國家級任務所以在111年有推出了"},{"start":8307.324,"end":8334.481,"text":"新世代的打擊詐欺的行動綱領1.0然後到113年11月28號也再度的推出了行動綱領但是本席必須很直白的說從111年的新世代打詐綱領推出之後到114年最關鍵的制度工程就是我們刑事局的詐房中心的正式法治化卻是在11月28號正式揭牌成立了"},{"start":8334.901,"end":8354.525,"text":"但是呢看起來是整整遲到了三年既然如果打詐真的如各位所說的不管是我們把它列為國安等級政府最重視的那為什麼這麼重要的單位一直要到現在才法制化而專責打擊詐騙的才新設了這個詐欺的偵查隊呢謝謝委員的關心我想委員知道這個防詐中心它本來就有任務編組"},{"start":8362.179,"end":8382.141,"text":"那現在法治化的話當然要經過我們包括人事行政總署包括主計處等等的幫忙我們才能夠把人員的一步到位那現在已經正式成立以後我相信我們炸防中心會朝著這個方向持續在做其實從111年到現在是三年的時間那事實上您剛講的那些問題需要這麼久的時間才能夠正式成立嗎"},{"start":8383.194,"end":8411.69,"text":"第一个任务编组其实我们的防诈的任务还是一样在做那再来就是其实我觉得在这个诈房里面最大的功能是在于我们的打诈新司法能够过在法律上能够过去年7月就过了所以我们现在慢慢也有成绩出来但是我们不以此为主才会有今天的这个修正草案诈骗的问题你也知道现在的诈骗集团层出不穷而且最重要他们的这个推陈出新随时都在更改所以这个时间上"},{"start":8413.13,"end":8428.534,"text":"整整落後了一年多才成立這個我們這個炸防中心我覺得其實有一點緩慢但是到底為什麼會造成這樣的狀況你知道嗎 部長很多的被害人跟我反映什麼他說是不是因為你到9月其實才通過那個考試院的審議通過然後10月14才核定11月7號"},{"start":8436.116,"end":8441.98,"text":"修正發佈並生效實施11月28日正式成立有很多受害者跟我講什麼他說為什麼拖到9月會不會是因為823之前大家都在忙罷免大罷免的事情是因為大罷免32比0之後因為已經失敗了所以才會到9月之後才來處理這個事情所以是不是因為罷免而耽誤了打雜呢"},{"start":8460.797,"end":8489.757,"text":"委員我想你非常清楚跟這個完全無關因為您剛有提到包括考試院或者是行政院的人總都是要去做溝通的部長我現在跟您反映的是被害者的心聲所以為什麼有這樣的感受表示說我們的速度還是慢了一點我們還是希望我們打大所以說呢現在因為我看到你們的報告是寫說這個詐房中心法治化之後可以偵辦跨境重大的詐騙那請問一下那過去法治化前三年喔"},{"start":8490.397,"end":8505.062,"text":"跨境詐騙是因為沒有主責沒有法源 沒有完整人力嗎那當時的跨境打詐你們用怎麼樣的方式來處理因為跨境詐騙是這幾年爆量成長那為什麼不是最優先法治化的呢"},{"start":8508.416,"end":8524.899,"text":"跨境的部分我是不是請署長跟您做一個簡單報告那跨境的這個部分確實目前就是我們打造比較要去做精進的一個地方那最主要就是說有一些國家是跟我們沒有邦交的"},{"start":8525.64,"end":8552.973,"text":"那偏偏這些的炸團的一個的這個運作的機房或水房的中心就在那些根本沒有邦交的國家那不過我們這個選舉駐外的聯絡官都有在積極做這樣的一個努力那我們也會從鄰國的一些的我們跟我們友好的國家會去做這樣的一個合作的一個機制的做處理那署長您剛提的這些主要是我們有的沒邦交然後都在境外"},{"start":8553.854,"end":8569.615,"text":"那請問一下那這樣聽起來的話那我們要這個打擊詐騙事實上有非常大的困難未來這個這個詐謗中心成立之後我們要怎麼樣來去處理這個我們就是詐謗中心成立完之後這個機制當然我們沒有成立之前也實質有在運作"},{"start":8570.416,"end":8596.368,"text":"不過這個成立完之後我們的人力編組各方面在就是有預算更加的充實大概就是細緻上會做得更好對 我們今年的前三季外籍這個嫌疑犯就有8293人這是你們統計的一個數字對 就是外籍來但大部分都是車手啦所以這個部分我覺得真的對於我們這些為什麼大家都會覺得台灣是一個詐騙的天堂因為我們第一個我們要這個去"},{"start":8597.623,"end":8624.91,"text":"偵查這樣子的一個詐騙有相當的困難再來就是說針對境外的部分我們其實在實行上也有很大的一定的困難所以才會有這樣的一個狀況所以說我再想要請教一下就是部長就是說今年的11月4號新加坡為了打擊這個詐欺犯罪修法通過要加重詐騙刑罰可實施鞭刑外國人也適用那請問一下台灣可否比照"},{"start":8625.985,"end":8655.295,"text":"這樣子的一個方式來去研議修法的可行性那當然法務部我們許正次是不是也可以針對法務部是不是可以共同來研議這個修法的可行性那 是保委員這個編寫的部分真的會牽扯到酷刑公約跟養公約的問題那這個要必須要經過很長的研討是 所以剛剛我提到就是說是不是法務部跟內政部可以來研議一下因為事實上這個新加坡"},{"start":8655.97,"end":8677.403,"text":"他已經做這樣的執行在11月4號那我們也可以參考他這一段時間的成效來去看看是不是真的有達到一個嚇阻的作用讓我們的詐騙的這個犯罪率能夠下降我覺得這是一個可以參考的依據那我覺得是不是兩位部長可以好好部長跟次長可以好好的來去研擬一下可以研擬"},{"start":8680.561,"end":8693.305,"text":"謝謝我想針對這個部分其實我覺得也可以多參考一下新加坡也許可以去新加坡考察一下謝謝最後一點時間三位請回最後一點時間我請教數發部的數位產業署黃副署長來 數發部委員好"},{"start":8702.575,"end":8725.003,"text":"黃副署長我想請教一下你們現在有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網3.0這個是你們的網站嗎因為其實我們點進去要查詢的時候事實上有一點不知道他到底要查詢什麼你可以看到這個畫面就是很亂然後也不曉得要怎麼要查詢什麼結果我這個部分我看到有一個點進去網站"},{"start":8726.15,"end":8753.775,"text":"認定是詐騙網站之後你們在兩個小時之內就通知FB把他移除了但是我用我自己的名字查詢了一下你可以看一下就第一個上面是顯示說徐宇貞委員的這個你可以看一下就是民眾舉報疑似詐騙的訊息在11月3號然後你們有公佈了一個網址你現在看到這個網址可是根本不是我的網址"},{"start":8755.177,"end":8768.51,"text":"根本不是我的網址而且我們也依照你們網站所提供的訊息我根本看不到經過你們確認無誤的這到底是什麼樣的訊息那錯誤的顯示方式是不是會讓民眾造成說我對這個詐騙通報網有什麼意義"},{"start":8771.784,"end":8791.417,"text":"是 我想其實委員這個部分來講的話我們也正在建立的就是類似像名人通報的部分像立法委員或者是一些網路我們常見到像張忠謀之類的這樣的一個名人的通報如果我們已經建立這樣的一個VIP的廣告你看下一則"},{"start":8793.038,"end":8810.954,"text":"他有一個是我在這個國事論壇講話的這個照片然後呢我講的是朱鎔泰院長因為在7月18號朱鎔泰院長拒絕給人民一萬塊的救命錢但內容摘要卻是川普撕破民主供應鏈假面積賴清德還要自欺欺人"},{"start":8811.374,"end":8814.017,"text":"然後就說7月18有疑似詐騙是由資安院AI自動搜尋查獲疑似詐騙然後7月10%已經通知我可是我問了一輪我們辦公室沒有一個人收到通知還有再來圖片跟文案根本完全不同"},{"start":8828.135,"end":8832.52,"text":"那所以你現在AI是不是已經設定了只要是講到那個卓榮泰院長或是賴清德總統的你就把他視為詐騙了然後就是要通報就是這是一個疑似詐騙的訊息是因為我們如果發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們會跟委員辦公室來做一個確認"},{"start":8845.436,"end":8852.142,"text":"就沒有 我們全部的同仁問過一輪了沒有一個人說到這樣的還有再來就是說對 因為你說的資安院AI自動掃描我現在的感受只是說我們是不是就沒有辦法說真話如果我們在國會殿堂上面說這樣的真話的時候馬上就把我們列為這個警示帳戶我們是疑似詐騙的這個訊息所以我覺得這個"},{"start":8866.936,"end":8881.565,"text":"這個通報網這個網站通報網反而應該是要幫助人民但是現在看起來反而無所謂而且造成我們更大的困擾是不是這個部分請你們要好好的來去檢討一下好不好來去改進我們會去了解一下這個案情那是不是會後再給我對 到我辦公室來說明一下謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝徐宇臻委員我們要困國紛爭再繼續開會"},{"start":8907.812,"end":8916.437,"text":"外國人有,但是還需要六個月的休養休養休養休養休養"},{"start":8928.624,"end":8935.649,"text":"要不刻意就要從裡面的核解數裡面去找它就變成你要調整"},{"start":8958.404,"end":8959.185,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8962.961,"end":8988.211,"text":"那時候就會有錢的話,可以扣啊,扣要便利都可以做啊"},{"start":8988.891,"end":9000.541,"text":"這個黑眼裡的徹甲甲是因為徹甲甲是裡面有這一條就是靜止這個黑眼這個我們來講這個徹甲甲就是徹甲甲的徹甲褲因為徹甲甲褲的黑褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲"},{"start":9009.949,"end":9010.869,"text":"這一次用"},{"start":9047.651,"end":9048.911,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9090.368,"end":9095.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9103.404,"end":9109.34,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9117.87,"end":9118.21,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9135.526,"end":9157.981,"text":"這個位置,這個位置,這個位置這個位置"},{"start":9161.271,"end":9185.404,"text":"沒有負擔願意訪問的方式應該來得及 而現在已經發生兩次了但是我們都不太會接受這種挑戰所以我們現在還不好意思講過我們想做的事情應該不會解釋得很清楚對 它是比較平均的 跟保護的會很不一樣所以當時就把這邊打到整整不保護"},{"start":9197.236,"end":9197.617,"text":"我還在進補"},{"start":9201.921,"end":9219.468,"text":"但是建設,現在直接,我們現在建設這個移民出來,大概六、七年,一定就讓他了解,但是建設一定要有存在,對,不用講說怎樣,就要有文化的壓力,對文化的要貫徹啊,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹"},{"start":9221.495,"end":9238.471,"text":"但是因為那時候他們不太願意,所以我們就不可以在那裡享受,所以就要在那裡只有認識,還有全力的做,你只有宣誓我做的,做的更加要感受這個事情。"},{"start":9239.431,"end":9261.184,"text":"這個量心不高的早期,現在頂多一百萬,我看可以降到五十萬,再降到一百萬,你量心啊,你量心啊,對啊,你才可以,你才可以賺到一百萬,才可以賺到三百萬,你就要降到五十萬以下,你才可以賺到五十萬。"},{"start":9264.426,"end":9285.453,"text":"對嘛,所以說現在通常有50萬喔?對,50萬以上的總包包而已啦百分之七八十,大概50萬,現在正常都夠了當然會多,但是如果量303當然也太高了所以那個高的潮汐我心目中,進來進去進來的方式,一般我們比較寡慮,但這個人比較寡慮怎麼辦?"},{"start":9296.39,"end":9296.711,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9307.669,"end":9336.266,"text":"那種溫泉湖,溫泉湖那種可以到溫泉湖,溫泉湖就是那種鎮療好物的地方他們的王寶給來的內地女人在溫泉湖那裡,就有男女啊,就有男女在那裡,就有男女啊,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有"},{"start":9342.551,"end":9344.232,"text":"謝主席 金管會有請請金管會"},{"start":9372.393,"end":9381.233,"text":"好辛苦了這個今天藉法條的這個審查的詢答跟你探討一個政策相關的問題當然也是跟這個詐欺危害犯罪防治條例相關的"},{"start":9382.433,"end":9410.81,"text":"這個我們這一次的院版裡面有第11條就是有談這個張款發還的方向張款發還的方向那針對這個帳戶裡面沒有經過提領的款項或資產到時候通知之後要發還給被害人也就是給予被害人最大程度的補償這事實上大家都非常非常關心因為其實詐騙的被害人其實最關心的事情就是錢到底能不能拿回來不好意思 主席"},{"start":9411.769,"end":9411.85,"text":"我那時間"},{"start":9412.864,"end":9423.549,"text":"沒有開始 我可以一直講嗎好 不要緊 繼續講一定要防詐的這個重要的問題 來謝謝主席好 那我們就回到主題目前這個發完的程序就是說我這個被詐騙的錢要怎麼還給這詐騙的受害人現在金管會裡面有訂立叫做金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防制詐欺犯罪危害應遵循事項辦法這名字有夠長"},{"start":9443.912,"end":9470.341,"text":"這53條裡面規定這是你的辦法這是一個行政命令的層級所以我說今天來做政策的對話他說存款業務機構依前條規定辦理就剛剛講這個辦理的時候應透過這個匯出存款業務機構或電子支付通知被害人由被害人檢據相關文件然後依啊匯轉入時間逐筆認定未被提領部分由最後一筆金額往前推算這個絕對大家都聽不懂在講什麼"},{"start":9471.121,"end":9478.988,"text":"簡單來說這一個賬戶假設有分三筆60萬一個30萬20萬的10萬好如果今天被抓了就按照10萬20萬30萬倒退的回去就是越晚被詐騙的優先來領現在制度上的設計為了方便他長成這個樣子如果說這60萬沒有被領走那他就是10萬的20萬的30萬還給被害人對不對這聽起來沒問題"},{"start":9496.383,"end":9513.255,"text":"好啦問題來啦今天如果這60萬被詐騙完之後這個詐騙犯他把50萬領走了剩下10萬的時候來問題出現了請問按照你現在的規定這個10萬該歸屬於誰啊甲乙丙甲被騙30萬乙被騙20萬丙被騙10萬按照這個順序對不對其中50萬被甲乙者"},{"start":9517.958,"end":9534.59,"text":"拿去用掉了剩下10萬在這個戶頭裡按照你現行的辦法只有餅可以拿回這10萬甲哥你就哭啦我是怎樣我比較早被騙所以我比較倒楣他晚被騙他還可以拿回來一點點這個這樣子的一個制度設計是不是有一點狀況是不是請金管會說明一下"},{"start":9536.755,"end":9560.365,"text":"因為這個涉及到等於說他這個是犯罪所得的一個重新返還那變成說他相關的法律關係的話變成說要看那個司法機關法院的判決來處理變成說那個金融機構比較沒有權責再去做相關的判斷可是現在發完程序還是要依循金管會的作業辦法來處理"},{"start":9561.607,"end":9577.616,"text":"是我們就是原則上是這樣子按照順序去原則上是這樣那不會延伸更多糾紛嗎因為涉及到如果說他不是整比的話就涉及到每一個受害人的權利的問題對啊那就變成說可能就要留待那個法院來做一個裁判這樣子"},{"start":9578.311,"end":9604.939,"text":"你現在的狀況是因為你有個規定寫在那邊那大家就要依法行政依你的辦法去做這個事情然後他就會衍生爭議縱然你講也許法院會介入判決但是這樣讓每一個事情變成個案上面有高度的不確定性本期認為有異議當然你講因為按照這個流動的順序啊或怎麼樣按照這個主筆來做回去那是最簡單的這是從金管委本會出發嘛也就是說我這是一個行政成本最低的做法但我問你這個行政成本最低的做法並不是一個最公平的做法"},{"start":9605.532,"end":9631.825,"text":"是不是你要不要考慮一下修整比如說等比例發還之類的因為大家同樣一包被騙都很倒霉嘛對不對那最後不管這個加害人幹走了多少錢但是剩下來的錢你要等比例發還是不是比較公平也比較有統一的程序可以做依循本來就藉這個機會跟你做一下這樣的探討委員會建議我們會來研議考慮但是就是說這個條文設計的原因就是希望加速返還這個相關的款項來彌補這個被害人的損失"},{"start":9634.366,"end":9652.137,"text":"就讓它程序比較便捷比較快速但是如果說在細節的一些程序上的設計是不是可以向委員建議這樣比較公平性我們再來研議看看你要研議多久因為現在在討論法條的修正當然這個東西不見得要透過法條的修正來做處理"},{"start":9652.777,"end":9678.17,"text":"但是這個一定是顯然未來大家今天這次修正相關的條文就是標舉就是說這犯罪所得可以盡速而且有效的返還給被害人嘛你不要說法條修了然後大家有所期待然後最後出來發現有這樣的一個制度上的一個問題然後招致更多的糾紛恐怕有些問題所以我認為是要同步處理跟著我們法條的修正的這樣的一個節奏法條在討論的同時你的作業辦法就要有所修正那請問金管會能不能提出具體的時間表呢"},{"start":9680.421,"end":9700.915,"text":"時間表這部分我們是不是因為我們現在這個條文還是有一個有一個彈性的也就是說金融機構他會去判斷說這個金額的狀況是不是能夠叫發還那如果說不適合發還的話他還是就是不會先執行這個狀況那當然如果說這個怎麼去優化涉及到實務面我們在執行的話我們會再找銀行或是"},{"start":9701.655,"end":9727.186,"text":"執法機關來共同討論看看比較好的方式那是不是我們會後再跟委員來報告一下沒關係配合這個法案的修正進度因為今天答詢完後面可能會再安排逐條討論的時間我不希望到逐條討論的時候這是一個懸而未解的問題好不好你就配合因為整個詐欺違法條例在修正也一定涉及這個官方機關跟各級民意代表針對不同法條的溝通啦今天就把它當成也許有一個修正動議怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":9728.624,"end":9746.679,"text":"匯後要跟本辦公室保持密切聯繫我們討論一下這辦法怎麼樣來修正可以兼顧行政的效率跟發環的公平性可以嗎是可以好再來我要問一下C43條的大家的修正的意見因為現在這部分我們內政部好了可以沒關係現在"},{"start":9749.918,"end":9775.837,"text":"上次我們在內政委員會討論這個犯刑法339條之四之罪獲取財務或財產上的利益達到五百萬元以上者就要三年以上十年以下有期徒刑嘛基本上就是重罰嘛然後達一億元者五年以上十二年以下嘛那現在很多委員都有提案有些把門檻降低變成你的這個金手的金流這個受害的金額達到一百萬我就要去關有些是說我分層處理就是說"},{"start":9776.792,"end":9796.901,"text":"就是說五百萬的一千萬的一億的分成三層那我請問現在行政機關對於這樣子的一個修法意見也就是說我們在重罰各式各樣的這種大額大家都投資詐騙的行為吸金詐騙投資詐騙這樣的一個行為現在行政院這邊的立場是什麼謝謝委員我們現在目前就是層級化就是一百一千一億"},{"start":9798.038,"end":9810.589,"text":"現在就成績化那100萬的話的部分是3年到10年那如果是1000萬的話是5年到12年1億的話就是7年以上所以大概一個成績化大概是目前是這樣這加重了"},{"start":9812.106,"end":9827.303,"text":"這個基本上本席非常關心這個違法吸金的一個狀況就今天財政委員會同步在審查銀行法那銀行法當然是針對吸金的部分吸金的部分不一定被拿走只要金流有超過他就達成一定的要件那麼請問現在從炸房條例的地方我能不能有效嚇阻違法吸金的行為"},{"start":9828.271,"end":9848.07,"text":"我想有效的嚇阻是多面向的不是只有單一刑事法刑法的一個提升這是其中的一環所以我們現在修正的這個法條它也是用金流的數字去算嗎還是要用不法所得的角度去算我們這個是以被害人交付的金額交付的金額對這個就不會堵掉很多疑義"},{"start":9849.131,"end":9869.627,"text":"我們現在擔心的詐騙形態現在很多種有很多那種小額的啦一點點的微小的那種狀況當然是非常非常多的但是真正對於社會治安還有大家公信重大受創的一定都是那種投資型的大額詐騙就是先以小利右拐上車上車之後就開始賣房子賣身家對不對全身一乾二淨"},{"start":9870.367,"end":9897.377,"text":"那種好幾百萬好幾億的所以我會建議一下這我們相關的機關在設計的時候當然現在分三成因為基本上你的最高一億元以上七年以上就是跟現在的違法基金是對齊的狀態但本期的主張這應該再加重因為你要超過好幾億的那是不知道多少人的身家性命房子地產全部都在裡面那你如果還是只有這個七年以上恐怕是我是希望可以再往上增加我希望行政院再提出一點再細膩的版本多分幾成也無所謂這是本期的政策建議"},{"start":9898.267,"end":9914.614,"text":"針對投資詐騙我們一定要到牢底坐穿啦這是本席的主張希望我們在未來討論的時候可以有更多方向更細緻的討論可以嗎是 遵守大院的決定好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝牛市廷委員我們請黃建斌召委質詢謝謝主席我們有請內政部長跟警政署長"},{"start":9926.833,"end":9928.295,"text":"我們補充一下數字你好"},{"start":9937.205,"end":9958.031,"text":"兩位高長 兩位好我想詐騙讓民眾相當的痛恨甚至造成許多家庭因為這樣家庭破碎依照我們現在法務部的統計地檢署電信網路詐騙 詐欺案件所偵查的起訴人數車手人數是逐年增加而且比例越來越高為什麼這樣"},{"start":9959.111,"end":9973.89,"text":"主要這個關鍵就是因為我們的量行過低而且難以起到這個阻嚇的作用讓這些車手關不怕關不怕出來之後繼續在煩人其中很多都是年輕人甚至有些是未成年的學生"},{"start":9974.651,"end":10002.93,"text":"那我們根據目前詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條在減刑的條件當中法官認為詐騙車手的酬勞車馬費是犯罪所得如果車手把酬勞車馬費繳回就符合這個減刑的條件另外根據今年5月14號最高法院的刑事大法庭裁定更主觀的認為說我們法律條件中的犯罪所得是詐欺行為人實際取得的個人"},{"start":10003.49,"end":10025.758,"text":"犯罪酬勞其中不包括其他共犯或其所屬的犯罪組織那如果詐騙行為在這個過程中沒有實際取得個人所得僅需自白就可以符合減刑的條件這會造成什麼狀況就是說現在很多時候在法輪功機上詐騙行為可以利用這個漏洞因為不斷的洗腦這些年輕人說你這裡的費用"},{"start":10028.732,"end":10052.325,"text":"高得宜 可能是幾千塊的車法或幾萬塊酬勞就可以獲得減刑嘛但問題是你這樣 要是抓不到就連館人都會被抓到那詐騙案你後面牽扯這個不法利益可能是數百萬甚至數千萬幕後主審我們都抓不到然後最後都是車手在扛那現在這個法律的條件的體制底下車手又沒辦法重罰就像抓不到警察"},{"start":10054.042,"end":10081.015,"text":"官員不怕出來繼續做人數一直逐漸的持續的增加那第一線我們的這些警政人員的這個執勤就是披於本命那這一次的朝野立委提案都說要修正這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七 四十六條那其中有一個重點就是必須要先支付被害人的和解金才可以緩刑才可以申請減刑那這個修法是希望說減少我們法律的漏洞"},{"start":10082.062,"end":10091.552,"text":"被鑽的這個機會那我們也可以危害我們被害人的權利那讓詐騙集團這些陳遠東必須要繳回被害人這個被騙的金額或者是跟被害人和解"},{"start":10092.202,"end":10117.518,"text":"才可以申請這個減免這個刑期我想這樣才可以真正讓被害人得到彌補也能夠那因此本市這邊也我絕對只是這樣想一定要針對詐騙要加重刑責然後也減少這個專法律漏洞的機會讓執法人員有更多的武器來有效的阻嚇這些犯罪的集團那也避免說你看我們這幾年打仗越打越多那執法人員就皮皮本命越做越辛苦"},{"start":10118.078,"end":10132.716,"text":"那考個該有寒喔那所謂本縣要提案第一層執法人員來請命特別就是我們的刑警的部分喔書店案典改來前委員會選接巡迴書店喔就是有關刑事加急的部分署長您說4月的時候會給承諾嘛齁那會在3個月來"},{"start":10136.756,"end":10155.768,"text":"會提出我們形勢加急的這個方案過去都沒有消息那今年11月中的時候我就在也是在內政委會我們就是也是問我們的副署長那副署長答應我說會在11月底的時候會提出相關報告那結果你報告只有一條線就是告訴我們說會跟相關機關溝通來徵詢意見說到背就是都沒有進度嘛所以本身在這裡要很嚴肅把我們經濟事務來"},{"start":10165.66,"end":10173.435,"text":"講這個事情 這是第二度跳票很多基層的刑事人員都在等我們行政我們警政署的這個"},{"start":10174.5,"end":10177.943,"text":"這幾年其實署長也很清楚知道刑事警察出現非常大的人力荒"},{"start":10197.47,"end":10213.679,"text":"這樣進行之下我們不就照顧現有的這些行屬隱患我們新進同仁也不進來那未來是不是會造成整個人勤事人員的大短缺這個部分我要請組長具體的回答說到底我們警政署"},{"start":10215.45,"end":10238.206,"text":"所研擬的這個具體方案是什麼到底什麼時候才有答案謝謝委員就是行事人員真的是工作是非常的辛苦那我們也會針對就是整個不是只有行事人員包括就是直轄市或各縣市政府警察局對他們的這個繁重加急或者行事人員做多做"},{"start":10238.986,"end":10256.526,"text":"全班的一個考量那我們就是會跟我們的這個相關的縣市的一個政府來先做有一些是給付要縣市政府來做一個給付這部分就是在在溝通溝通完之後我們會形成這個政策那我們持續在進行當中"},{"start":10258.263,"end":10279.523,"text":"所以今年我們有答案嗎 或是之前的行事過程我們盡量時間盡量來提早來做規劃蘇長你現在蓋城城現在的狀況因為我們現在就是說大概我們的公文也給各縣市這個政府來提供這樣的相關的意見等資訊回來之後我們再做統籌的一個比較明確的一個規劃"},{"start":10283.482,"end":10298.417,"text":"謝謝署長還是再次強調就是這件事情其實我們已經預測到未來人力短缺的情況然後再加上現在這些制度還沒有明確的話如果我們不趕快解決真的等到哪天人力短缺"},{"start":10299.352,"end":10314.254,"text":"亮紅燈的時候那時候來永不老都來不及我們會盡快來做一個處理部長可不可以責任警政署在今年年底今年年底完成刑事加急的調整的具體方案也提供給本市辦公室"},{"start":10315.556,"end":10336.879,"text":"報告委員其實我們對於警察自己本身的權益我們都非常努力來爭取那大概有幾個方向第一個就是深夜危老加急的部分謝謝我們立委支持我們現在已經把公文呈上去了這是一個另外一個就是說非六都的這個警勤加急的部分現在已經有新竹縣他願意朝著班重加成處理"},{"start":10337.279,"end":10352.639,"text":"那再來就是你所說的就跟刑事警察自己本身有關的部分那我們也會把它列為是爭取的方向那這個爭取的方向你說今年年底 現在已經年底了現在12月了說到 報告部長我們在4月的時候就說要給答案了"},{"start":10353.1,"end":10368.662,"text":"4月份的時候規劃的方向我們都知道但是就是要爭取的時候呢也是要跟地方政府溝通那地方政府溝通的話就是過半數的時候我們就會把這個溝通的方案再往上層然後來做爭取"},{"start":10369.142,"end":10390.648,"text":"這個部分大概是三個方向 因為基層會覺得說署裡面都 我覺得你這樣說不公平啦我當然 但在署裡頭的現場 當然要幫基層爭取權益啊 但是他之前的行事 你們來說他會覺得說 我們的工作量越來越多 考核跟評比那麼多他的工作量其實在增加 其實我想署裡面都很清楚知道基層的狀況我了解 但是我們在 我剛剛跟你講說我們爭取的方向是三軌在並行的"},{"start":10396.137,"end":10408.972,"text":"規劃我們當然這樣規劃可是你地方政府他如果願意很快的同意我們的方向的話那我們再往那個行政單位局部長你覺得什麼時間來可以給我們答案因為基層都需要等到這個答案"},{"start":10410.795,"end":10437.365,"text":"我們裡面有兩項已經往上呈報了那比較沒有太大困難那刑事的部分因為真的是牽涉到很多地方幫我們基層打打氣我說真的我們何止打氣我們本來就是要鼓勵他們而且我們是站在同一個線上在打擊犯罪的人怎麼會是用這樣那個我們太初是非常積極的也可以透過這些質詢讓基層的這些刑事警察知道說我們署裡面真的有心想要解決這件事情"},{"start":10437.925,"end":10457.008,"text":"除了其實你了解我們現在講的意思如果我們是平時如果有些人要做平時那這個是不是可以盡快如果年底不行我們還有明年的就過年前是不是可以讓他們知道說我至少知道說署裡面有在關心我們集成這些刑事人員"},{"start":10459.619,"end":10486.796,"text":"報告委員我想你會了解包括我們警政署跟我們內政部都是做時事的人我想不要虛隱故事那我的意思就跟你講就是說我們在地方政府在爭取上面如果有過半數的地方政府有同意這樣的話那我們往上呈報會比較容易那你如果沒有的話確實會很困難因為你自己也當過行政官員那所以我們就盡量來爭取有的話一定會很快就讓立法院的這個委員來了解好嗎"},{"start":10487.296,"end":10497.143,"text":"就拜託部長跟署長這邊 因為本席是接到基層行政委員一直在反映這件事情我們今天來解決這個問題 大家一起加油謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝黃建平召委 我們請羅天偉委員質詢"},{"start":10515.954,"end":10540.665,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長 警政署署長還有詐欺犯罪防治中心主任法務部次長謝謝首先署長跟部長我先請教一個問題剛剛大家都很關心這個所謂的繁重加急現在你有提到所謂的深夜危老加急"},{"start":10541.345,"end":10557.386,"text":"那我們也有關心形勢加急其實剛剛都有提到我都有在聽但是我想先就教署長最近我們是不是有發文去給各縣市去做一個詢問對於這個所謂的繁重加急我直接坦白跟你講"},{"start":10558.803,"end":10584.993,"text":"第一年就跟你講說繁重加擠要加了一直在跟你追我也是底下打電話給你好幾次那終於你有發文問了我先一個感謝但第二個我也坦白跟你講我剛剛直接打電話去台中市政府的警察局我也在跟他們抱怨我說你收到公文怎麼還沒回他說卡在府城我直接跟你說你們有詢問市政府不同意不支持我拜託你公佈"},{"start":10586.943,"end":10601.633,"text":"做得到嗎如果說委員要求的話我們就會公佈你公佈嘛你支持你支持的狀況之下市政府不同意那讓市政府來接受輿論啊我們想辦法去讀書啊"},{"start":10603.03,"end":10629.597,"text":"對不對今天你願意詢問了我很感謝所以我剛剛也一直抱怨為什麼他們還沒回函所以我希望這個部分應該要一起來努力這個家籍的部分大家真的要想辦法幫他們我遇過警察自殺的我也遇過警察在工作場所暴斃的而現在我們為了這個詐騙事情成竹不窮所以我要問現在詐騙手法"},{"start":10630.967,"end":10653.006,"text":"每個禮拜都在更新假客服假加油還有一些有的沒的手法風險類型往往都跟不上這些炸團的更新速度所以現在社會上有一批很不滿的強烈不滿的就是這一批車手詐騙的車手反覆翻案民眾常常看到就是同一批同一批進去出來進去出來"},{"start":10654.861,"end":10676.399,"text":"抓了又放關了又出來讓治安的信任度感受到很大的一個挑戰我要問請問一下警方目前對於累犯的車手有沒有建檔標記追蹤相關的機制多次落網風險較高的這些人作為高風險對象對於偵查有更高的一個機制來做一個風險判斷有嗎"},{"start":10678.477,"end":10703.972,"text":"委員這個部分我們當然是有建立這樣的一個機制不管是剛剛很多委員有執行過就是車手不斷在同一個車手犯多次的這種狀況我們都有做這樣的一個情資的一個好 謝謝這個沒問題詐騙案件也呈現多頭的部署我舉例人在AD帳戶在BD網站在海外車手限時跑"},{"start":10705.39,"end":10732.505,"text":"警政署目前對於跨縣市的合作資料的共享修正同步化具體這樣的一個制度有沒有強化的方法我們會就是行政局有建立一個正辦的一個平台那這個平台我們會去做一個整合做一個分析跟共享我們現在我要引用一個日本最近的一個案例他在鹿兒島"},{"start":10734.178,"end":10762.634,"text":"有兩名自稱台灣籍的車手冒充警察企圖詐騙高齡者的年金日本警方察覺有異後立即與金融機構合作採取假裝受騙的方式當場逮捕另外也連帶破獲一案這個案例凸顯兩件事情第一高齡者一定是最脆弱的所以最容易被鎖定的族群第二前端的獄警攔阻通報反制的一個策略非常關鍵"},{"start":10764.013,"end":10782.228,"text":"所以台灣面臨同樣高齡者詐騙平反通報現在車手跨區的流動情況警政組是不是有更規劃主動的攔阻反制的一個做法日本可以透過前端攔阻通報主動反制這樣的一個成功破案台灣能不能做到"},{"start":10783.41,"end":10797.856,"text":"這個部分是沒有問題的就是說在對高齡者那我們當然對針對就是最容易的他去的包括金融機構或是零貴的官委提供的房子之外我們也針對高齡來做宣導"},{"start":10799.477,"end":10823.477,"text":"那對於車手 尤其是車手我們我們是會分析到他的熱點 熱區 時段會去做這樣家常勤奮的部署另外當然還有偵查偵查的部分我們當然會去做逮捕了這個相關的作為這個其實我們的這個預防跟偵查這個能力我們是有方法跟有步驟的這個部分我們偵查的能力是"},{"start":10826.659,"end":10851.351,"text":"講到宣導我要幫警察講話我一個拜託你你聽聽看我們在跑地方行程所有的委員可能都遇過長青會吃飯結果警察來做宣導這個也是一個場合很辛苦警察很辛苦我知道是場合歡迎你運用但警察很辛苦要辦案還要做宣導乾脆你組一個詐騙防制的志工隊去做所謂的宣導"},{"start":10852.597,"end":10868.404,"text":"不要都是讓警察去做宣導的動作讓警察能夠分擔一些業務的志工去做這件事情我想相信這個宣導的部分不一定要由警察自己來做那警察就是一邊宣導一邊陪笑"},{"start":10870.136,"end":10893.031,"text":"委員如果願意的話 你的力道還更強我願意 我們拿麥克風幫忙講都沒問題啊前陣子都在講普發一萬ATM這個轉帳的問題我們都有宣導 可是我的意思是說你要我們做可以啊我們自己也會自己約束啊但是這個部分是不是有機會不要去讓員警一直做到宣導的工作找一批志工幫忙協助讓員警回歸專業來幫助治安"},{"start":10895.272,"end":10906.962,"text":"我們會公私合力啦 公私合力來做也希望你關心啦 謝謝謝謝感謝羅定偉委員我們聽王洪威委員接受好 謝謝主席我請劉部長還有我們請鄭署 張署長張署長"},{"start":10926.178,"end":10953.8,"text":"委員好部長好 還有署長好最近有一個議題其實受到我們社會大眾高度的關心就是台鐵在今年不斷地發生暴力攻擊然後現在也面臨到可是問題是我們現在鐵路警察的人數不足而且事實上這幾年都是下降的所以對於台鐵工會來說如果鐵路警察人數不足"},{"start":10954.941,"end":10978.57,"text":"但是台鐵的員工又面臨這種暴力攻擊所以他們提出是希望能夠增聘保全所以我想請問一下署長的看法我們在短時間內我們鐵路警察的人數可以增加嗎如果不能增加的話是不是支持"},{"start":10979.41,"end":11006.397,"text":"就是為了免除台鐵的員工面對這些暴力攻擊而應該去增聘保全的謝謝委員現在鐵路的這個員警那在短期內因為是要全國橫平性的所以短期內警力應該也沒辦法就是滿足到整個一個這樣的充足那我非常支持就是台鐵要推動保全人力常態的一個配置這個絕對支持"},{"start":11008.408,"end":11036.616,"text":"絕對支持這個應該徵聘保全好那至於鐵路人數不足鐵路警察人數不足的問題那你們有沒有做一些相關的規劃我們也會啦就是說會從這個學校的一個這個招生的這個畢業的學生那跟整個我們全國的各縣市警察局以及我們署組的各相關單位我們就會做比例橫平性的來做一個派譜"},{"start":11037.518,"end":11064.672,"text":"所以在這個部分也應該同步去增加了但是在這一段時間因為今年就發生14起的案件而且越來越離譜了所以基本上短期內以徵聘保全但是我覺得從中長期我們鐵路警察人數也應該減壓不足好 謝謝那我想部長應該也支持吧支持這樣的方向好 謝謝署長時間暫停一下我再請我們法務部次長"},{"start":11065.932,"end":11069.655,"text":"來 時間暫停一下部長 那個劉部長還是請留步請保聽"},{"start":11074.209,"end":11097.694,"text":"好 部長 次長在我們這次炸房條例的修正裡面新增加了第50條第二項這是有感於就是很多的炸團炸騙一般民眾的錢然後他們過非常豪奢的生活實在違反社會觀感而且傷害這種被害者的感情"},{"start":11098.399,"end":11112.037,"text":"所以我們有禁車條款那我先想請教次長禁車條款訂定之後到底什麼樣的狀況會加重騎行別說是豪車"},{"start":11113.789,"end":11143.509,"text":"豪宅還是還是有什麼包養很多女人這樣子的一個狀況但是問題是他們也可以切割啊比如說他他脫產到時候又不符合這個禁車條款所以我想請問一下次長你所謂的禁車條款的定義是什麼謝謝委員我想草案院版草案第50條的第二項有關於禁車條款的規定它不是加重即行的規定"},{"start":11143.988,"end":11161.862,"text":"它是一個量刑的規定所以有第二項裡面的這六種情形那這個六種情形如果我們司法警察或者檢察官有發現我們把相關的事證提供給法院的法官那就這個六個情形的話請法院從眾量刑 對是量刑的 對量刑 那你們不會你們在起訴的時候也會根據這種計收條款的標準"},{"start":11170.617,"end":11194.563,"text":"會 這個部分絕對是良心參考我們在起訴書裡面也一併帶這個會牽扯到說他可能不賠償被害人的損失再加上這個有近身的這些條件沒有啊 但是即便他賠償被害人的損失待會我有時間我會講你這個什麼和解那很多這裡面都犯罪集團啊 黑道啊他要跟你和解被害人不想和解有時候還不行"},{"start":11196.292,"end":11204.47,"text":"那又是另外一個問題對 我知道我知道但是會有這樣的問題因為我先把先把focus在這個禁攝條款那我想請教一下部長來"},{"start":11206.195,"end":11231.029,"text":"部長就以您個人你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下比如說我們今天看到詐騙集團他什麼樣的生活的豪奢的狀況之下法院應該從重量刑因為詐騙已經很可惡了你還可以過得這麼豪奢像既然這次有這個所謂的禁奢條款因為我自己提案也有禁奢條款你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下應該加重處罰"},{"start":11234.171,"end":11259.273,"text":"謝謝委員我們非常贊成委員的禁車條款的部分那現在我們看到了一般市面上如果你有豪車豪宅土地精品等等或者是說他到高單價的這個餐廳去用餐這個就是符合50條裡面的6款的這個部分的話我們就希望在禁車條款裡面把它加進去那假設我另外一個他如果包養很多很多人算不算"},{"start":11260.987,"end":11289.753,"text":"也算吧養很多人包養包養小三之類的你說包養算算吧對不對我覺得這個部分怎麼樣讓我們的被害人的感情不要被這樣傷害另外就是講和解我們這次裡面有和解可以讓他減刑或者免除刑責但是非常重要的是這些黑道這些犯罪組織他如果是脅迫性和解"},{"start":11290.453,"end":11316.789,"text":"如果是脅迫性和解他根本不應該被減刑啊對不對他也不應該被免除刑責啊不是他以為他這個事件爆發他就可以賠錢了事所以我覺得在這一個部分如何保護被害人即便他在被詐騙之後還要不受脅迫不受脅迫然後被迫和解只是為了換來這些詐團他去免除刑責或者是減刑好不好這一點非常重要好以上謝謝"},{"start":11319.29,"end":11340.482,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝王宏威委員執行我們請侯孟愷委員主席謝謝 麻煩我們請警政署署長跟我們法務部次長請一下署長 請一下次長"},{"start":11344.366,"end":11373.124,"text":"好 署長我先請教12月1號我們打詐儀表板我們打詐詐騙的金額有多少12月1號就大概2億多2億多2億4千5百萬對 就是12月1號就是12月開始的沒錯 因為你現在打詐儀表板上面只有12月1號的數字昨天的還沒有出來對 昨天的應該是會在前天的會出來就是前一天的好 那9月呢"},{"start":11374.205,"end":11390.698,"text":"九月我們全台灣被詐騙的九月大概七十幾億吧六十七億十月大概六十億十一月大概五十九億五十九億九千萬所以其實十月跟十一月幾乎一樣就差不多六十億再加上您剛剛所證實我們雜案飆版的數字"},{"start":11394.971,"end":11423.511,"text":"12月1號2億4500萬所以其實詐騙金額雖然有略幅的下降但是它會變成是有一個門檻平均一年都一天2億多一個月有60億的被詐騙金額這個是到目前為止這是客觀數據我們即便是已經講了那麼多過去還有講是說這都是有報案記錄的那有沒有未報案的黑數"},{"start":11424.872,"end":11450.488,"text":"也許有但是這個數據是絕對是真實的這個報案完之後用電腦間接很好嘛本席現在都是以一個科學的方向因為我們要共同努力就是要打擊詐騙嘛但現在的詐騙金額被詐騙金額不是一天一千萬兩千萬是一天一億兩億"},{"start":11451.909,"end":11479.321,"text":"而且一個月60億那即便是這個案件數字我們常講對於被害者來講他不是0跟100啊他不是那個金額的高低啊他是被騙了就是那麼多錢啊他的付出 他的損傷他一生的秩序就那麼多啊所以我們猜想是說以現在我們通過那麼多的法令不管是過去打詐是法打詐無法或是我們現在又在討論要更精進要加重刑責處分"},{"start":11480.748,"end":11503.754,"text":"署長你認為我們除了現在我們有做以外還有沒有可以更積極有效的方式所以我們這個詐謗條例在去年7月通過之後經過這一年來的這樣的施行我們認為還有要更經濟的地方所以我們今天要把詐謗條例的這個刑者刑罰的部分修得更更更更就是更嚴格一點沒錯讓他們付諸了代表這樣子你覺得還夠嗎"},{"start":11507.198,"end":11526.209,"text":"這個當然還不夠或者是當然還不夠嘛所以說我們才想的是說怎麼樣各部會各司其實有更積極有效的作為嘛另外就是說剛剛有些委員有提的就是說除了這個更重以外對就是對於被害人最重要就是他的那個被害人能夠做返還嘛是這是"},{"start":11527.17,"end":11552.721,"text":"他是最重要的就是他的潛力本席也有參與連署就是說針對譬如說自首的部分如果說他不是非自願自首或是說他一定要達成一定金額這都是我們之後會逐條審查討論但是我昨天有注意到我們刑事警察局的這個科長跟我們的網紅也有上個節目他講到一句話我覺得真的是要我們所有行政部門大家引以為戒因為這句話也許它就是一個事實可是這個事實絕對不應該"},{"start":11554.562,"end":11573.619,"text":"掛在我們中華民國掛在我們台灣的頭上他講什麼 他講說現在台灣已經變成是詐騙訓練兵訓練場 詐騙練兵場只要在台灣能夠詐騙成功的話世界各國都走得通那代表什麼代表台灣變成是詐騙培養基地詐騙練兵場"},{"start":11576.513,"end":11592.907,"text":"我們可以接受這樣的一個形容嗎我覺得這個是這個講得太嚴重了太嚴重了但這句話是本席剛剛查的新聞資料是昨天一個網紅跟我們刑事警察局共同直播節目講出來的"},{"start":11594.739,"end":11610.724,"text":"署長我不是要苛責這一個科長我現在講的是說如果說真的有講到這句話外界有形容或是外界認為說台灣嚴重詐騙嚴重這種程度變成是詐騙集團想要用新的方法新的手段新的科技來台灣嘗試"},{"start":11612.845,"end":11634.89,"text":"台灣嘗試通了然後他在其他世界各國詐騙那我們情何以堪我們警政署我們內政部我們法務部所有同仁大家可以接受嗎這口氣吞得下嗎所以我們才有更積極的防弊我們要用我們態度來告訴詐騙集團你不要想在台灣詐騙你敢來我們敢罰我們敢辦是吧是好來那法務部次長"},{"start":11642.768,"end":11671.515,"text":"市長本席之前總質詢的時候就有講過9月的時候就有說現在新加坡因為他們要打詐所以他們把邊行納入了詐騙打詐的一個刑責除了原有刑責不變罰金關幾年刑責不變還有加入邊行那現在也新加坡三讀通過也一個多月了我們法務部有沒有了解說他們的成效我們會去了解會去了解是所以還沒有了解"},{"start":11674.639,"end":11698.622,"text":"我來借用一下王世堅委員 我們執政黨委員他昨天上一個直播 他被主持人問到台灣民眾被詐騙一年超過1200億加黑數王世堅主張嚴刑峻法 邊刑能逼出上線能否對詐騙用邊刑 王世堅表態了"},{"start":11700.284,"end":11714.289,"text":"這是單一委員的說法但重點就是有媒體有報導超過七成的民眾認為如果邊形是有效能夠嚇阻詐騙的話我國應該採取用邊形更有九成二的民眾認為現在詐騙在台灣是嚴峻的"},{"start":11717.042,"end":11740.585,"text":"那你不能發過態度立場是到現在人家都已經在施行了我常講說新加坡現在用邊形納入打造這是一個很好的實驗組我們不需要浪費社會成本我們就可以有一個實驗組來去看參考說他們有沒有效如果有效的話我們能不能做未來推動修法的參考"},{"start":11741.994,"end":11764.095,"text":"市長上個禮拜本時沒有記錯的話司法法治委員會才開一個專案報告也是針對這個議題討論那你們不是照理講應該人家已經是實驗組了我們跟新加坡建立管道了解一下說他們現在的一個制度跟一個數據有下降我們也可以提出來幫忙我們的警察同仁嘛"},{"start":11765.757,"end":11793.102,"text":"給警察同仁武器工具讓他們去對付詐騙犯的時候講嘛你們敢詐騙台灣有邊形如果未來我們可以推動的話讓他們嚇阻他們啊法務部你們的態度能不能再更積極一點我想新加坡這個部分三讀是通過啦但是他們還沒公佈啦這個還沒所以相關的數據啦還有個案呢我們還沒收集到那我們有沒有建立管道"},{"start":11794.605,"end":11817.285,"text":"我們建立跟新加坡的管道我們這邊都有法務秘書跟警務秘書我們當然會有聯繫至於說我們的往來那個就方便來 次長其實你要講說新加坡他們沒有公告等等但是媒體報導都已經有其實這是一個政府態度的問題"},{"start":11819.651,"end":11833.482,"text":"讓詐騙犯知道新加坡當已經納入邊形之後他有恐嚇嚇阻的效果就可以防範犯罪我提高犯罪之後的成本犯罪人他就會評估說那我就不要來這邊犯罪他可能就會離開嘛不是嗎"},{"start":11837.982,"end":11866.056,"text":"這就是法治國家社會的ABC就是說如果說我們針對這樣不然我們今天討論為什麼我們今天討論是說連這些相關法則要提高也是一樣我們希望達到這個效果啊我們沒有說我們我們要傷害無辜的民眾無辜民眾你不犯罪提高再關一百年你也不會關到你但重點是你敢犯罪的話有權責有層級你騙多少錢我要關多少騙多少錢要關多少不是嗎"},{"start":11867.387,"end":11878.136,"text":"行政院版本不是也是這樣子嗎是啊所以我們現在才講的是說除了這個以外那人家已經有一個實驗組了你不能到目前為止還是被一問三不知啊你能夠接受你能夠接受我剛剛講的台灣是個詐騙練兵場"},{"start":11885.515,"end":11909.365,"text":"台灣詐騙成功 世界就可以成功能夠接受嗎所以本期才講是說人家已經有個實驗組了那我們能不能了解對方的立法過程原由以及是不是真的有效果有效果我們可以來做後續的研究跟討論會研議所以建立管道 了解相關資訊"},{"start":11911.209,"end":11938.409,"text":"公部門與公部門的管道讓我們立法委員後續也可以做參考本席再次強調當初跟總執行的時候我給行政院院長跟法務部部長半年的時間讓他們來收集相關資料以及掌握國內的民情也有媒體已經有報導有七成的民眾做過民調之後是支持死刑來打擊邊刑來打擊詐騙的這些都請法務部收集相關資料來做一個研議可以嗎是謝謝"},{"start":11941.365,"end":11964.796,"text":"好 謝謝我們感謝侯孟楷委員質詢我們家林建祺委員林建祺委員不在我們家蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在我們家鄭振泉鄭振泉鄭振泉不在我們家李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":11976.274,"end":12004.133,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請這個法務部的政務次長徐次長加政務次長委員好來 次長好今天我們要來審查這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文的修正草案那本席也有提案然後在第43條的部分就是說我將提高高額詐欺的刑責"},{"start":12005.197,"end":12024.713,"text":"將要件從詐欺獲取之財物或財產上的利益修正為使人交付之財物或財產上的利益擴大這一個本罪的適用範圍這個在你們的說明的第22頁裡面目前法務部的態度如何"},{"start":12030.612,"end":12047.837,"text":"目前跟委員所提出來的版本那委員是100萬然後1000萬跟1億成績化是這樣那跟我們現在願版出來的是一樣的所以我們就是希望說本來是說那個獲取"},{"start":12050.127,"end":12079.06,"text":"財務上的或是利益上的利益嘛我們把它擴大成交付嘛對要放在被害人那一端不可以在行為人這一端行為人這一端就有解釋的空間但是被害人交付是一個客觀的比較精確的事實所以會比較準一點好那這方面應該是沒有應該是有共識的謝謝委員支持好那不過現在我就要問一個就是說因為我看這兩天新聞都有在討論的就是一位"},{"start":12079.977,"end":12091.157,"text":"台北市一個清潔隊員他撿到一個一個丟棄的電鍋然後就轉送給一個死荒的婦人然後遭遇貪污自罪條例起訴那當然"},{"start":12092.432,"end":12120.066,"text":"士林地方法院12月2號宣判那處這一位親協隊員三個月的徒刑緩刑兩年 持多公權一年這其實對我們來講就是說因為他是善意好心然後也是一個廢棄的一個電鍋也不是具有很大的一個價值那針對這件事情法務部強調說小兒貪污案的修法在2024年已經呈報行政院審查"},{"start":12121.034,"end":12147.102,"text":"將配合相關修法事宜推動修法那我請教一下法務部目前的這個修法的這個狀況報告委員現在在行政院審查中那你們所提出來的重要的內容在哪裡最主要是以前是減輕期刑現在可以免除期刑就是說他的會減到三分之二不過這個這樣的行為還是要就是有緩刑的機會來"},{"start":12150.081,"end":12174.038,"text":"這個其實我們的法院也是做了很多的處理它是在貪污治罪條例第六條第一項第三款最輕本行五年以下有期徒刑的這個框架之下運用多項減刑規定達到一個極限的操作其實可見法官也知道第一個它的財產的價值極低定過殘存才32.56塊"},{"start":12176.3,"end":12203.791,"text":"動機單純然後比例原則的權衡因為它過去都是非常清白的然後如果它只是因為這樣子轉送了一個價值32.56塊的這個老舊的電鍋就會判處五年以上的有期徒刑違反罪行相當原則那這個情節輕微與社會的通念那這個跟法院我們的判決也強調說情節輕微與否應與一般社會通念審酌"},{"start":12205.285,"end":12226.039,"text":"那所以說這個才會有說你們自己也發現到了這個問題所以你們才會從這一個貪污治罪條例裡面你們針對這個小額貪污的這部分有做出了一個處理吧能不能請次長再說得更清楚一點謝謝委員我想就是因為其實這個貪污治罪條例"},{"start":12227.711,"end":12245.004,"text":"我們宿攤這是本部還是堅持的一個立場當然啦 宿攤大家都支持啦所以我們在審酌這些事情當然就會非常的謹慎那當然就會有時候會遇到這種情形法重的時候那我們才會想到說我們在貪污之間條例第12條我們就試著把它修改成如果是極輕微的這個案子我們應該可以"},{"start":12251.934,"end":12276.982,"text":"減輕或免除期刑如果符合相關的條件的話最多可以減到三分之二那法院也可以因為個案的可以免除期刑判決所以這個對於那種情境法重的情況之下就可以適用那因為這個是地方法院的判決吧那如果說法務部的這一個修正案通過的話應該也沒辦法回溯適用到這一位清潔隊員吧"},{"start":12281.003,"end":12301.725,"text":"對被告有利的話可以適用但是如果確定就沒有了現在地方法院可以回溯嗎我說案子如果沒有確定法律修改的話就上訴的話就有可能就有機會所以說因為現在是地方法院所以他可以可以到這個高等法院嗎"},{"start":12302.808,"end":12328.923,"text":"這個案子可以 他的刑度是可以就是說他的本刑是可以的那所以就是說我第一個強調的是這個比例原則啦大貪那跟這一個我們所講的這一個情節比較輕微的這個小兒貪污那第二個就是你講到就是說我們要避免這一個情輕法重的一個荒謬的一個現象那當然我們也要注意就是說這一個"},{"start":12329.85,"end":12357.254,"text":"要明確去區分違俄的善意的行為跟實質貪污那貪污我們當然就是要研辦但是我們也不要讓人家覺得說好像是違俄的貪污除罪化這也要避免那就是說你怎麼可以讓這個違俄貪污除罪化就是說這個的界限大家要分清楚有關於貪污這部分的話那當然一定要法辦 要研辦但是像這一種"},{"start":12358.684,"end":12380.985,"text":"這個清潔隊員他本身是基於善意他死荒老人他覺得說那如果有個電鍋可以讓他吃點比較溫熱的東西的話他就轉贈給他價值也很低三十幾塊那結果你就這個我們用這一個貪污治罪條例最輕就五年那這樣顯見不合理嘛那所以這個案子你說送到這個行政院那這個進度咧"},{"start":12385.39,"end":12410.156,"text":"我們8月15號最後一次審查完卷就等行政院院會如果通過的話就可以送過來我是覺得剛好利用這個機會來審視就是說你們所提出來這一個修改的這個法案不要說因為這件事情因為就我們常人來講的話這個不是一個最大惡極的貪污但是用到這個貪污治罪條例"},{"start":12410.578,"end":12420.124,"text":"五年的出行其實是過重了但是也要避免就說好像這個違行的貪污我們把他出罪的話也不是這個用意不可以這樣謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝李坤臣委員質詢我們中島12點沒要休息繼續開會跟我們家楊瓊瑩委員質詢"},{"start":12439.87,"end":12443.355,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長請保釘委員好"},{"start":12452.421,"end":12474.855,"text":"部長好 我們繼續來討論現在坊間社會對於詐騙的這個事件是大家非常地希望政府有能力從源頭來歸管所以本期要跟你討論的是說平台的審核如果是私人的它可能構成在整個詐騙的一個破口"},{"start":12475.555,"end":12491.296,"text":"就存入Meta旗下的FB IG長期充斥一些假名人與一夜市的詐騙廣告那這些詐騙它利用了跨境的帳號與很短生命週期網站的大量投放"},{"start":12491.957,"end":12513.354,"text":"那形成了它非常低的一個成本高收益的詐騙供應鏈那所以Meta的廣告呢它的查核機制沒有辦法去阻斷這樣子的一個此類的內容那麼只能夠要求民眾你靠著你的FB是不是藍勾勾啊或者是你廣告透明度的工具來自行判斷"},{"start":12514.355,"end":12536.175,"text":"那等於是平台在收取高額的廣告費用的時候把風險跟執行的成本轉嫁給使用者跟政府所以本席要來請教也就是說目前為止我們政府介入的點主要是在哪裡"},{"start":12538.369,"end":12560.356,"text":"報告委員我想我們政府要介入的點第一個要法制非常的健全我們從那個打詐新司法過以後我們發現在以數位為主的大家全力支持打詐司法我知道但是譬如說像資通安全管理法或者是數位平台這個部分的法制上不是很健全所以我們現在跟Meta這樣的公司"},{"start":12560.996,"end":12588.502,"text":"在處理有關他的詐騙廣告要罰真的比較不容易這個這樣子的法律工具是不足的狀況之下對所以我們現在也只能說請我們的這個警政署盡量盡量來那個看能不能強化跨部會的平台治理在原則裡面減少不然你談到這裡本席直接跟你切入討論是因為本席請問你說我們能夠介入的點在哪裡就是介入到被害人受騙了之後然後打了一個165"},{"start":12590.253,"end":12609.844,"text":"他希望要這樣子去攔截所以你在執行的過程當中你只是在處理受害者的結果端而已你目前為止在做的是這樣子本期要跟你討論的也就是在犯罪源頭應該是你要掌控在平台的投放跟審查"},{"start":12611.785,"end":12631.425,"text":"這個非常重要因為你國家如果是只是在承擔在末端的時候承擔金融機構警政跟民眾的風險那詐騙機關當然他甚至這個技術一直在提升跨境投放的方式的規模他去形成了一個犯罪的一個平台出來"},{"start":12632.506,"end":12651.005,"text":"所以本期希望就是說在整個平台在技術跟審查上面如果他失能了構成公共安全的一個破口的時候部長你是不是支持在我們平台審核失效的時候我們應該要刻意罰則"},{"start":12653.735,"end":12669.617,"text":"那你才能夠從根源那避免才能夠有主柵的這個責任才不會永遠都是落在整個末端處在已經犯罪以後的打擊犯罪那前面的預防的部分就是我剛所說的"},{"start":12670.979,"end":12688.493,"text":"就是可能要速發部一起配合的狀況才有可能跟Meta這樣的大公司來做比較好的討論的方案你不只是速發部 你警政署你們自己內部也通通都要跨部會的去巡查因為坊間都問我們"},{"start":12689.534,"end":12715.335,"text":"我們這麼支持的打詐司法但是現在根本沒有辦法去阻詐所以政府要做的除了是末端人民已經承受了末端的一個風險那政府更應該從源頭來做處理所以本席再次請問也就是在整個平台審核失效的時候我們是不是應該要去研議刻意罰則"},{"start":12717.097,"end":12733.636,"text":"報告委員就是我們在那個炸防條例的33條裡面確實也有請這個網路的平台業者要能夠按照我們的這個這樣的法律上面來處理有關詐騙的部分那但是到目前為止我們站在我們這個警政"},{"start":12734.415,"end":12761.651,"text":"警政的立場上面的裁罰機制Meta公司只有1600元或者是沒有一線下架詐騙廣告只有250萬我想這樣的金額大概少了好幾個零所以Meta公司就是哇你這句話太好了你自己政府也本身知道少了好幾個零所以我們的工具不足那我們要怎麼辦政府要怎麼辦所以我們現在工具不足的話還是需要跨部會一起來處理會比較好"},{"start":12763.072,"end":12765.633,"text":"那你在什麼時候可以去研擬方案出來呢因為你看現在打詐是否過後政府自己本身也知道是不足夠的不足夠要提出啊你已經知道問題點在哪裡那你應該要提出我們知道它的嚴重性看起來罰款"},{"start":12783.783,"end":12797.841,"text":"罰款大概不足以去去做這樣子這麼大的這個打擊像那個Meta這樣的一個平台上面所提供的這個詐騙所以我們會想辦法就是如果有很嚴重的這個犯罪詐欺的嫌疑的話"},{"start":12798.582,"end":12824.887,"text":"是不是限制他的接取 瀏覽或者是移除甚至是用禁止的方式讓他不要從事平台的工作那這樣的部分還是必須要有完成法律要件之下我們才能夠處理你知道問題點在哪裡所以政府應該有所作為而不是任由民眾在末端承受這個風險我知道 我非常了解我知道 你也知道現在通告在哪裡你外部時間可以拿出來"},{"start":12827.668,"end":12834.674,"text":"但是不覺得我一個補位可以付錢啊啊你要去說啊 你是下去想補啊你這樣子推 那我要問誰啊今天英明的召集人把你請來啊我們當然是問你啊我們也好幾個部會啊你跨部會要怎麼去研擬出來呢我們現在就是會多管齊下我剛跟委員報告了就是我們如果法律要見那你多管齊下 你們要趕快跨部會剛剛北市已經說了嘛有啦趕快去研擬好不好 我都笑不出來這兩天"},{"start":12854.731,"end":12871.807,"text":"這兩天我們會根據這個會做一個比較好的像我其實有跟我委員回應過包括我們資通安全管理法它的執法12月1號才生效我們要回溯回去然後我們可不可以針對這個平台業者來做限制接取我們會想辦法你也說這個問題是非常的嚴肅你也知道問題點在哪裡"},{"start":12876.431,"end":12888.68,"text":"所以本席還是具體建議 趕快跨部會去研擬你認為工具不夠的 要怎麼樣工具我們一定要主戰 讓民眾還給他們可以生活的這個社會面向嘛是好 謝謝 我們感謝楊雄英委員這層我們黃珊珊委員這層"},{"start":12907.12,"end":12910.742,"text":"謝謝主席我請法務部市長市長我想今天又在這邊看到你們的打詐條例46 47條的修正案其實還是蠻難過的一年多前我們在這邊審過了以後法院不理你不理你必須還要開一個什麼最高法院的大法庭"},{"start":12934.141,"end":12955.664,"text":"他們否決了我們的立法意志然後請你們提對岸又拖了大半年其實這個真的叫做姍姍來遲但是姍姍來遲總是要來的那今天這個這個法案我看到你們的確是有所改善因為犯罪所得的認定變成法院自己"},{"start":12956.454,"end":12985.715,"text":"自由新政這是不對的因為對他們來說他們是用很傳統的法律解釋但是立法一直跟我們原來本來就要去規範的對象應該有很大的差別我想問你一下你跟司法院溝通好了沒溝通好了上一次在我們委員會審的時候司法院說沒看過你的版本現在看過了沒那一次的時間比較重出好 今天司法院有來嗎我們請他們上來背書一下吧"},{"start":12986.68,"end":13007.698,"text":"來加司法院上次說沒看過當場拿出來你們第一次看到然後讓我們立法委員覺得很詫異兩個院之間不聯絡坐在現場不回答我們去年通過的案子你們也在現場司法院回去也不跟刑事庭溝通現在溝通好了沒"},{"start":13011.412,"end":13034.393,"text":"這個版本是我們在行政院會是有跟這個法務部已經有做一個溝通那你們跟你們自己的刑事廳的法官們溝通好了沒我們除了這個所謂高額詐欺不要再發聲你們都溝通完了結果法院的法官從來不知道你們在溝通什麼除了43條以外這個部分可能還跟法務部這邊意見還有意見那你們來這邊幹嘛呢"},{"start":13036.297,"end":13053.933,"text":"其他都一致46 47沒問題了犯罪所得沒問題了然後不會再發生法官判決跟立法意旨衝突的地方這個部分我們有在法官論壇上也有張貼然後對於法官有一些疑問我們也都有解惑他們有表示意見的部分你們都已經釐清了"},{"start":13055.254,"end":13081.345,"text":"好我希望這一次是最後一次一個法律送到立法院來司法院跟法務部溝通來了之後判決跟立法一直完全不同這不應該是一個負責任的行政單位尤其是司法院的廳長都在現場這不能再發生今天所有人都講大家都聽到了再發生同樣的問題我想各位就要負責啦可以嗎"},{"start":13083.968,"end":13106.322,"text":"市長你確定你都溝通完了你確定明年不會再發生什麼大法庭的解釋把立法院跟法務部的臉全部打一遍因為我剛才有聽到他們還有一點意見還有一點意見那就跑在立法院了這不是很扯嗎所以這個必須要由他們自己來說明來 什麼意見先再說不要回去再說你們另外有意見他們是對於那個43條我們是"},{"start":13111.147,"end":13135.434,"text":"成績化是一百一千一億嘛那他們對於這個一百萬他認為金額太低了就是因為一百萬一百萬他認為太低了就是等於是太低他這個是三年以上十年以下有期徒刑他是強制辯護的案子所以他變成說金額太低又強制辯護對法院來說很大的負擔法服的費用會暴增那司法院你怎麼辦你希望"},{"start":13136.277,"end":13158.985,"text":"那現在是院版的版本送來這邊然後你們自己要不要先打一架呢我們是希望說不要說一次從五百萬降到一百萬幅度這麼大那如果說能夠再比一百萬再著雨提升的話那這樣會比較好所以這個已經不是我們立法院的事啦是你們兩個院紀要協調好我是今天才聽到因為這個是我們院版出來了又來了"},{"start":13160.698,"end":13170.232,"text":"這就是我為什麼覺得很緊張這個法修完之後明天再也沒工了今天重點是你們在進立法院之前就應該搞定了"},{"start":13171.517,"end":13198.491,"text":"進立法院之後在這邊尋答還有這種問題的話我很擔心這個法明天法院又有不同的意見這個法到時候又發生罕格怎麼辦我沒有什麼意見你們趕快自己去搞定我們還是希望委員能夠支持我們院版的我們支持你們嚴格版但是司法院覺得有這個問題你們是不是要去理清楚我沒有意見只要趕快修不要再拖了"},{"start":13199.517,"end":13224.976,"text":"已經拖了大半年了大半年這就中間是空窗期所有的人車手只要說我只拿三千塊他交完三千塊就結束然後第二個上次我質詢的時候拿出來的是民間的這些詐騙集團這些成員拿出來說起訴書跟判決書就是他最好的履歷表他可以去下一個詐騙集團應徵而且會得到高位中華民國的法院判決竟然是他的履歷表"},{"start":13226.26,"end":13243.3,"text":"如果我們還讓這些詐騙集團這麼輕重司法院你們100萬500萬我們沒有意見快做快就好了第二個如果真的是造成所謂強制辯護那你們要怎麼修正你們要提出修正意見而不是只是說我們覺得這樣很麻煩但是沒有自己的意見多久可以給我答案"},{"start":13249.183,"end":13269.348,"text":"謝謝委員那這部分我們回去會跟這個我們的回去沒有時間了啦12月底以前至少這個法在我們修正要審查處理的時候這個答案要出來我們會提出一個相對應的這就請召委在排在排案審查的時候這種時候不應該還說我們還有意見浪費大家時間好嗎不要再浪費我們時間我已經等了兩年了謝謝"},{"start":13277.521,"end":13294.776,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員諮詢在這裡要說 您剛才說環俄法府的案件抱歉 今天都沒想到比海賊越來越多 當然也要越趕快 有100萬開始省了來 抱歉 我們這裡是新營委員諮詢抱歉 來"},{"start":13309.538,"end":13316.184,"text":"好謝謝主席在座各位大家好本席有請這個法務部次長徐次長加次長委員好"},{"start":13321.258,"end":13344.807,"text":"市長上次好像也是在這裡本期有諮詢有關不起訴處分人受告誡這件事我們現在很多民眾都是受害者我相信您也認同他們不起訴處分之後如果沒有辦法在30天的訴願期他就必須"},{"start":13345.527,"end":13373.876,"text":"告誡賬戶就要5年嘛那本席請教一下那這個行政法的部分他這這法條規定30天的溯源期有可能比如說延長一點嗎有沒有可能這個30天是救濟期間沒有辦法應該是沒有辦法延長可以修嗎是根據那個溯源法跟行政訴訟法的規定"},{"start":13375.725,"end":13377.045,"text":"那可以調整嗎這個除非修法嘛對啊修法 否則不行那這樣五年的告誡賬戶有可能縮短嗎也是法律的規定啊這個應該是那個金管會是金管 上次有問到我現在就問你你這個我們法"},{"start":13405.129,"end":13416.495,"text":"法務部的立場市長市長這暫停一下他們這個在溝通能不能請我們主任檢察官報告主任檢察官好那簡單說一下"},{"start":13419.182,"end":13447.727,"text":"報告委員就有關於告誡的部分的話是依照洗錢防治法22條第6項所授權的執法具有它的相關法律效果那就22條的部分這邊有關於告誡的規定那判斷上還是以交付賬戶這件事情到底是不是有正當理由去做判斷它未必是跟是否存在幫助詐欺到底成不成立犯罪是切開來判斷的意思切開判斷我的意思就是說因為很多民眾不生其擾"},{"start":13448.727,"end":13458.556,"text":"這個有沒有可能五年減成三年依情節他只要是告誡他只要是詐欺賬戶就一定是五年是嗎"},{"start":13461.633,"end":13488.399,"text":"不一定有跟詐欺有關它就是交付帳戶這種沒有正當理由的交付就是五年所以這個五年是不可能縮的這個有評估過大概就是五年有點像觀察一樣不可能縮的原因你一定要給社會大眾一個交代你看那一堆人留言所以我們要站在法務部的立場我要聽你們的立場"},{"start":13489.654,"end":13493.276,"text":"為什麼五年不可能變三年原因是什麼對"},{"start":13497.765,"end":13524.694,"text":"還有一點就是說這個不是完全就是封鎖他的帳戶的使用我知道他臨櫃他有一些限制就是很不便這個其實他的立法的目的就是在於說不能輕易的在沒有任何理由正當的理由就把帳戶交出去這個設計上應該是可以兼顧很多你現在是在講你的目的我們都了解我現在再給你一點時間我時間其實快沒了"},{"start":13525.97,"end":13554.313,"text":"等於是為什麼不能縮短就是只能五年這個我們可能要再會後再研因為你們沒有思考過嘛好 那我接著講沒錯 這五年就是要告誡就像為什麼殺人那有一定重的刑責就是你不能去殺人嘛但是本席要說的是我們現在很多民眾他並不清楚這個然後在不清楚 很多"},{"start":13555.427,"end":13579.526,"text":"无辜的民众那他不清楚他就就产生了这个情况然后也很不生其道生活上也造成很大蛮大的困扰那所以这个的宣导是不是很重要我们都有持续在宣导可能不是不止我们包括我们内政部还有相关的教育部都有在宣导所以这个宣导"},{"start":13580.194,"end":13600.577,"text":"有没有成效才是问题当然我们常常行政单位都有宣导但是我们就看112年到114年到今年10月112年6月开始到114年10月这5年的告诫账户开始是在112年6月到现在"},{"start":13601.758,"end":13622.146,"text":"光是法務部詐欺案件中不起訴就有148192件這中間真正撤銷告誡賬戶的只有935件不到1%所以等於99.3%的人呢37%的人呢通通這5年就要承受這個苦果"},{"start":13622.606,"end":13647.368,"text":"所以我們希望這個宣傳真的要加強很快的我要再來到我們今天詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條46條 次長我想請教你這46條是你們法務部寫出來的條文嗎你就回答我簡答是不是行政院版是你們寫出來的條文你看看這個條文的精神是什麼"},{"start":13648.393,"end":13672.958,"text":"也就是說詐欺犯了詐欺犯罪的他如果自首之後他要能夠減輕或免除期刑他必須要支付被害人達成他調解或和解的全部金額他要支付全部金額又或者是他在供出首腦你有沒有去問過"},{"start":13676.26,"end":13700.093,"text":"你們這個是根本是mission impossible這有可能嗎他根本付不出金額包委員這個我解釋一下這一個和解他的用意因為有可能他車手他經濟能力是不夠你今天叫他整個詐騙的金額整個交付的所有的金額就是幕後的這個首腦他所有的金額都到叫這個車手來付那當然是"},{"start":13701.633,"end":13720.654,"text":"他付不起可是他個別他可以解釋他的狀況他認為說我擔任的角色我獲得的利益我的能力各方面的態度我都自首了我自白了等一下因為你這個是要跟被害人達成和解我告訴你被害人如果他被騙3000萬你認為車手拿多少"},{"start":13725.499,"end":13747.755,"text":"車手他可能拿不到搞不好拿10萬好那要和解的時候被害人有可能說好啊那沒關係啊你就給我10萬他10萬可能也拿不出來還有根本不可能和解因為我被騙3000萬我怎麼可能覺得我就10萬塊這第一個第二個你們這法條很好笑"},{"start":13748.576,"end":13772.504,"text":"你第一個要這個和解的金額全部支付之後如果你還能夠供出你的首腦為什麼不是他願意供出首腦不用有第一項支付這個金額他願意供出首腦你也給他免除期刑啊你這樣才能鼓勵他供出首腦啊所以你們這個法條我真的覺得恐龍法條欸這個部分還有再來"},{"start":13778.387,"end":13797.888,"text":"你這個部分本席提的可不可以調整因為我們還沒審嘛你的見解是什麼今天我最重要我要他供出首腦他願意供出首腦他錢交達不成和解交不出來我一樣可以免除期刑啊供出首腦這個被害人會有"},{"start":13798.973,"end":13811.073,"text":"有感受的問題所以你這個是考慮到被害人當然這其中一個原因就是說你還是要填補你不能光一隻嘴巴說我要那最後執行面你這個和解在哪裡和解你告訴我"},{"start":13811.755,"end":13839.016,"text":"和解沒有設任何的條件他可以在警察局他可以在律師事務所或者公害場所都可以和解不是誰要來協助他和解你沒有設任何的你這執行面有可能嗎今天一方要和解我們有鄉鎮市調解委員會也可以調解所以你們竟然是設定鄉鎮市調解委員會沒有說設定就是說調解他沒有任何不是你這個法條出來我就問你你這個和解的單位在哪裡誰來負責嗎"},{"start":13840.757,"end":13861.568,"text":"因為你這法條如果通過我問你誰來和解誰來調解所以調解委員會法院也可以調解對我知道就這兩個我就等你說這兩個法院可以調解象徵是調解委員會也可以調解以現在詐騙案幾十萬件幾百萬件你確定OK我在這裡請你們回去審慎思考"},{"start":13862.629,"end":13886.246,"text":"調解委員會各鄉鎮市區公所我們就在猜這是給鄉鎮市區公所調解嗎還是法院來調解法院有這個能量嗎鄉鎮市區公所這個的調解OK嗎所以我們是因為時間的關係不過我們在審查的時候我想也要好好的來討論我今天時間的關係你們回去好好想想"},{"start":13887.13,"end":13909.585,"text":"好 謝謝 我們感謝習新穎委員質詢我們家葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝委員不在我們家丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠委員不在我們家陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在陳冠廷委員"},{"start":13914.897,"end":13933.525,"text":"今天定期發言的委員除了不在庭以外全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員來賓有鄧學忠 高進 宿美 吳清明 林柱英所提出書面執行列入紀錄"},{"start":13935.407,"end":13942.94,"text":"刊登公報 書面的這項及未答候的部分將相關單位一週以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":13950.434,"end":13957.044,"text":"處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案審查簽讀討論事項所有條文修正動議一邊宣讀"},{"start":13970.646,"end":13989.871,"text":"第七條行政院提案第一項同線型條文增訂第二項司法警察機關得以必要範圍內將疑似詐欺犯罪被害人身份資料提供金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員以利其執行業務時得據以對客戶關懷勸導或通知司法警察機關到場"},{"start":13991.656,"end":14016.385,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等17人提案第一項同線條文增訂第二項司法警察機關基於防治詐欺犯罪之必要得於特定目的範圍內將其依報案記錄經留異常太陽或其他足自認定之資料所辨識之疑似被害人身份資料提供金融機構及虛擬資產服務業者使其於執行業務時得及早進行關進行關懷提示必要之勸導程序或通知司法警察機關到場處置"},{"start":14017.985,"end":14044.106,"text":"其资料提供之种类范围目的及保护措施由中央主管机关会商金融主管机关及法务主管机关定之委员李坤诚等23人提案同行政院提案第8条行政院提案第一项同线性条文第二项修正为金融机构及提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员执行前项后段规定作业或有辨识疑似涉及诈欺犯罪交易之必要时得召会其他金融机构或提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员"},{"start":14044.586,"end":14065.944,"text":"受召会者应提供相关资讯第三项末段修正为由金融主管机关定之增订第四项及第五项为防止诈欺犯罪得有银行法第47条之三锁定经营金融机构间资金移转账户清算至金融资讯服务事业或经营金融机构间征信资料处理交换至服务事业建立平台"},{"start":14066.4,"end":14082.166,"text":"协助金融机构或提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员进行同业或跨业合作于必要范围内搜集处理及利用客户资讯并以科技方式分析及辨识疑似涉及诈欺犯罪之异常存款账户电子支付账户信用卡或虚拟资产账号"},{"start":14082.867,"end":14102.292,"text":"前項平台之建立及合作之進行應有銀行法第47條之三鎖定經營金融機構間資金與轉賬戶清算之金融資訊服務事業或經營金融機構間徵信資料處理交換之服務事業向金融監督管理委員會申請核准後實得辦理"},{"start":14102.884,"end":14122.841,"text":"申請核准應檢附之文件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由金融監督管理委員會定之委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第二項修正為金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務知識業或人員執行前項後段規定作業或有辨識疑似涉及詐欺犯罪交易之必要時得基於詐欺交易之疑似特徵或客戶行為異常"},{"start":14123.582,"end":14147.592,"text":"於必要範圍內向其他金融機構或虛擬資產服務業者為跨業召會受召會者應本於善良管理人注意義務提供必要且相當之資訊其餘同行政院提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第九條行政院提案第一項第二項同線性條文第三項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之"},{"start":14148.052,"end":14160.79,"text":"增订第四项司法检察机关应调查诈欺犯罪的主动通知金融机构及提供虚拟资产服务之事业或人员将疑似涉及诈欺犯罪之存款账户电子支付账户信用卡或"},{"start":14162.136,"end":14180.708,"text":"虛擬資產帳號列為警示並暫停全部交易功能委員賴瑞隆等17任提案增訂第四項司法警察機關就調查中發現之疑似涉及詐欺犯罪帳戶或虛擬資產帳號得及疑於急迫性及必要性主動通知相關金融機構或虛擬資產服務業者將疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之存款帳戶"},{"start":14181.668,"end":14210.385,"text":"電子支付帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產帳號列為警示戶並暫停全部或部分交易功能但應與合理期間內完成查證並通知是否維持或解除控管其餘通行政院提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第10條行政院提案第1項前段之聯防通報機制修正為同業及跨業聯防通報機制第3項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之其餘同線型條文"},{"start":14210.905,"end":14231.35,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等17人提案委員李昆成等23人提案同行政院提案第11條行政院提案第一項修正為金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員依第9條第一項後段或第4項司法檢察機關通知暫停全部交易功能之帳戶或帳號中有被害人會轉入之款項或虛擬資產未經提領者"},{"start":14231.79,"end":14249.986,"text":"得依司法警察機關之通知發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或虛擬資產第二項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之委員賴瑞龍等17人提案第一項後段修正為於切任匯款人為被害人後得依司法警察機關之通知發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或"},{"start":14252.228,"end":14280.784,"text":"虚拟资产 其余同行政院提案委员李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案第13条行政院提案第一项续文中断及第二项中断之中央金融主管机关修正为金融主管机关 其余同行行条文委员赖瑞龙等17人提案同行政院提案委员李坤成等23人提案第一项罚还额度修正为新台币50万元以上200万元以下第二项罚还额度修正为新台币300万元以上1000万元以下其余同行政院提案"},{"start":14282.168,"end":14296.097,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案修正第31條第一項序文後段增訂並將相關資訊建置於公開之廣告庫至該廣告被刊登後滿一年為止增訂第一項第五款至第八款"},{"start":14296.707,"end":14314.962,"text":"五 推播广告至参数设定六 广告刊登之时间其广告是否曾因违反其服务条款而被移除或被限制其可见度八 广告于我国境内之总处及人次及其第五款所定之特定群体处及人次其与同现行条文"},{"start":14316.448,"end":14338.588,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第31條之一網路廣告平台業者應設置線上聲明機制使其內容創作者得以聲明所提供之內容構成廣告網路廣告平台業者接獲聲明後應依本法規定標示為廣告網路廣告平台業者應設置線上通知機制使其使用者得以通知其認為應標示而未標示為廣告之內容"},{"start":14340.349,"end":14355.514,"text":"網路廣告平台業者接獲通知之後應進行處理對於確認未依前項規定聲明為廣告之內容應依本法規定標示為廣告並得採取限制流量或移除內容等必要措施第四十條委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第一項第五款"},{"start":14356.374,"end":14380.728,"text":"為依第31條之一標示為廣告原第5款第6款一列第6款第7款其餘同現行條文第42條行政院提案中斷之各目的事業主管機關及司法警察機關修正為各目的事業主管機關或司法警察機關其餘同現行條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案第43條行政院提案"},{"start":14381.548,"end":14410.499,"text":"翻刑法第339條之四之罪使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣100萬元者的處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3000萬元以下罰金使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1億元者處7年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣5億元以下罰金"},{"start":14411.124,"end":14428.898,"text":"委員翁曉琳等25人提案第43條犯刑法第339條之四之罪詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣500萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣1000萬元以上5000萬元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣"},{"start":14429.838,"end":14452.817,"text":"一億元者處十年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下十億元一億元以上十億元以下罰金委員吳佩義等17人提案後段修正為因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣一千萬元者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或"},{"start":14453.517,"end":14478.616,"text":"财产上利益达新台币1亿元者除7年以上有期徒刑得并科新台币3亿元以下罚金其余同行行条文委员赖瑞龙等17人提案最末段修正为得并科新台币10亿元以下罚金其余同行政院提案委员李昆城等23人提案将罚则分别修正为5年以上10年以下有期徒刑7年以上12年以下有期徒刑及9年以上有期徒刑其余同行政院提案"},{"start":14479.196,"end":14497.69,"text":"委員侯孟楷等17人提案後段修正為因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1億元者處7年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣5億元以下罰金其餘同線型條文"},{"start":14498.35,"end":14520.323,"text":"第44條行政院提案第一項之第三項同現行條文第四項修正為犯詐欺犯罪非屬刑事訴訟法第284條之一第一項之第一審應行合議審判案件並准用同條第二項規定為翁曉琳等25人提案第三項修正為發起主持操縱或指揮犯罪組織"},{"start":14521.624,"end":14538.549,"text":"而犯第一項之罪者處十年以上有期徒刑得並科新台幣十億元以下罰金其餘頭現行條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第46條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首並與自首之日起六個月內"},{"start":14539.309,"end":14566.307,"text":"支付与被害人达成调解或和解之全部金额者得减轻或免除其刑前项情形并因而查或发起主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织之人的或得以扣押该组织所取得全部财被害人交付之所有财物或财产上利益者得免除其刑台湾民众党党团提案第46条犯诈欺犯罪于犯罪后自首并与被害人于第一审言辞辩论终结前达成调解或和解并"},{"start":14566.775,"end":14594.575,"text":"己負被害人全部調解或和解經驗惡者得減輕或免除其刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者免除其刑委員蘇巧慧等22人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首且如有犯罪所得自重繳交其犯罪所得者得減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":14595.015,"end":14614.342,"text":"前項其行並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或與法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得免處其行"},{"start":14614.842,"end":14617.465,"text":"委員黃婕等21人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首於法院延遲辯論終結前將被害人就本案因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財務或財產上利益無條件提存者得減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":14628.723,"end":14644.985,"text":"支付与被害人达成调解或和解支全部金额者一同前向情形并因而查获发起主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织之人或得以扣押该组织就本案所取得全部被害人交付之财务或财产商利益者得免除期薪"},{"start":14645.725,"end":14662.697,"text":"委員李博義等16人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得並賠償被害人所受損害者法院得審酌其賠償行為減輕或免除其刑其餘通現行條文委員翁曉琳等24人提案"},{"start":14663.297,"end":14681.826,"text":"前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財務及財產上利益或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其餘同線性條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":14682.526,"end":14712.158,"text":"委員羅志強等19人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首填補被害人財物或財產上之損失或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者減輕或免處期刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織制人者免處期刑"},{"start":14713.717,"end":14739.461,"text":"第47條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起6個月內支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕其刑前項請行併額查獲發起主持操縱或詐指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人獲得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付之所有財物或財產上利益者得減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":14740.593,"end":14756.45,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者得減輕其刑並以而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押"},{"start":14757.415,"end":14772.851,"text":"該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織制人者減輕或免除其刑委員王美惠等18人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白"},{"start":14773.231,"end":14789.64,"text":"且與被害人達成和解並填補被害人所受損害者得減輕其刑其餘同線性條文委員蘇巧慧等二十二人提案第四十七條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中全程均自白且如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者得減輕其刑"},{"start":14791.101,"end":14810.002,"text":"前項情形並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部或被害人交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或與法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":14810.683,"end":14828.926,"text":"委員黃婕等21人提案第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前將被害人就本案因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財物或財產商利益無條件提存者得減輕其刑支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者一統"},{"start":14829.485,"end":14848.581,"text":"前項情形並因而查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或得以扣押該組織就本案所取得全部被害人交付製裁或產生利益者得減輕或免除其刑委員李博義等16人提案前段修正違犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並權而填補被害人所受損害者"},{"start":14849.261,"end":14878.454,"text":"或與被害人達成和解者減輕其刑其餘通線性條文委員李坤誠等20人提案第一項修正為第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕其刑未能與被害人達成調解或和解但已將被害人因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財務或財產上利益提存者異同第二項同行政院提案第二項委員翁曉琳等24人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪"},{"start":14878.934,"end":14905.769,"text":"在偵查及歷次審判中均自白自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財物及財產上利益或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其與同行政院 其與同縣行條文委員賴瑞榮等17人提案同行政院提案委員羅志強等19人提案第47條詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白填補被害人財物或財產上之損失或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解"},{"start":14907.31,"end":14923.89,"text":"或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者減輕其刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑"},{"start":14924.52,"end":14950.323,"text":"第五十條行政院提案第一項同性型條文增訂第二項犯詐欺犯罪後犯罪行為人於賠償被害人所受全部損害或支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額前法院有應注意犯罪行為人有無下列事項為科刑輕重之標準依購買租賃或使用逾越一般人通常生活程度之商品或服務而達成逾越一般人通常生活程度之交通工具"},{"start":14950.823,"end":14973.449,"text":"三 为逾越一般人通常生活程度之投资四 进入逾越一般人通常生活程度之高消费场所消费五 赠予或借贷他人逾越一般人通常生活程度之财务六 每月生活费用逾越一般人通常生活之程度委员赖瑞龙等17人提案委员李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":14974.449,"end":15003.317,"text":"修正動議第46條第一項後段增訂或已達成調解和解並提供相當擔保按其履行者得減輕或免除其刑第二項後段增訂但其公訴或提供之證據對於查獲該組織有重大貢獻者不以符合前項規定為限增訂第三項第一項所定期間如有不可規則與行為人之事由法院得依申請或職權裁定延長之其與同行政院提案"},{"start":15003.778,"end":15006.076,"text":"提案人委员徐欣盈等三人宣读完毕"},{"start":15009.814,"end":15032.605,"text":"謝謝 在這裡我們請署判員跟法務部跟內政部 針對委員提案的跟秘書不一樣的意見我們先行協調整合討論署判所列入議案定期繼續審查本署的法規到現在"},{"start":15037.318,"end":15039.9,"text":"結束,現在散會,拜託在這段時間,大家去協調一下,以上"}]}},{"id":"166173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6f33f2d1a348230a6c7cefddca96be5002877a8620327ff6f0f7628e6d07117175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:32:48 - 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撤銷假釋因為目前沒有嘛目前雖然假釋這個行政上面可以撤銷你如果和解金沒有賠可以撤銷但是我們是不是可以有一個你今天如果說騙了錢即使你有在還和解的錢可是被我發現你還在外面大手大腳的花不願意立刻拿出來賠錢我一個刑事禁捨令下去依據這個可以撤銷緩刑或撤銷假釋"},{"start":434.571,"end":458.544,"text":"麻煩你們研究一下我個人在實務我的實務經驗告訴我這個東西對打詐絕對有效請研究一下第二個如果有高額消費要直接視為犯罪所得有一些人他他在外他其實很多錢是藏在某個地方啊那等到他自由在外的時候就開始大手大腳的花那我們是不是應該要把他視為犯罪所得優先還給被害人而不要讓他再慢慢賠錢"},{"start":460.115,"end":478.266,"text":"好那我覺得這才叫做打詐打詐我絕對要求嚴懲打詐我不會反對嚴刑峻法但是不要留於形式主義要真的能夠有效那我覺得各位很多都是實務出身的會懂我在說什麼還有法務部麻煩再次檢討一下"},{"start":479.741,"end":502.127,"text":"定因執行刑這個法律上的設計這是死理法因為大家都知道一罪一罰就全國國人以為說你犯越多罰越重我跟各位報告啊不是這樣啊一罪一罰確實是你犯了100條詐欺是判100條沒錯但是在最後回到定因執行刑的時候又得到一個超級黑卡金卡然後大打折"},{"start":503.067,"end":513.861,"text":"又回去原來的很輕所以各位才會發現我騙了100次跟騙兩次三次刑度差不多在定因執行刑的時候差不多所以定因執行刑該不該"},{"start":515.117,"end":537.837,"text":"一律存在或是可不可以在我們打詐的時候跟原本的其他案件脫鉤請你們要思考一下我看到的詐欺犯常常一來詐欺多到要請事務官幫我做列表他要搞一個列表才能夠看他兩三百次的詐欺然後他的前科表跟跟百科全書一樣厚他也不在乎然後反正定義執行之後又跟"},{"start":538.878,"end":566.901,"text":"騙一兩次的人判的一樣那詐欺集團的律師也是這樣在告訴教這些被告的反正你騙兩次跟騙五百次都判的差不多重反正定因執行刑又會回到最低了所以搞到最後根本沒有打詐的效果我在這邊點出都是實務的問題麻煩各位能夠從這地方去研擬修法不然我不好意思我只能找各位立法委員大家一起來修這個法律這就是實務上面的問題好不好"},{"start":567.822,"end":569.886,"text":"再麻煩兩位能夠注意這個部分謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17090","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db66a919a0b9b1b1fb4be335d15c1ead01b4456b5c46cbb78c2cc962b1d44295d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra 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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1750.54,"end":1762.267,"text":"好 我們開會 謝謝請逐密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員13人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1764.417,"end":1781.832,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第13次經濟全體委員會議事錄時間114年12月1日星期一9時至12時30分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員陳亭飛等14人列席委員洪孟凱等11人列席人員經濟部部長龔明勳國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢"},{"start":1782.893,"end":1807.724,"text":"行政院經貿談判辦公室總談判代表楊貞妮外交部次長陳明祺等主席楊朝吉委員瓊英報事項以宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定而邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員行政院經貿談判辦公室首長外交部首長及國家安全局首長就台美關稅協議之談判方針進度爭議事項雙方可能承諾及台灣產業之影響評估進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1810.685,"end":1838.375,"text":"經濟部部長龔明勳國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢及行政院經貿談判辦公室總談判代表楊振尼報告後委員陳定飛等20人提出質詢經由經濟部部長龔明勳等即席答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完畢 詢答結束二 委員陳冠廷 徐欣盈 張家俊及林楚穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三 書面質詢和未及答覆部分請將官單位於週內以書面答覆並附資本會"},{"start":1839.255,"end":1849.731,"text":"委員另有要求期限者從其鎖定 散會宣讀完畢好來這邊那我們繼續進行討論事項請一併討論一併宣讀"},{"start":1854.941,"end":1879.65,"text":"討論事項 審查一 本院委員林益錦等22人 委員劉建國等16人委員徐巧欣等17人 委員呂坤澄等22人委員廖先祥等19人 委員郭益勤等16人委員羅廷偉等18人 委員林思敏等18人 委員洪孟凱等16人委員徐巧欣等17人 委員吳慶敏等17人 委員陳廷飛等16人及台灣民眾黨黨團分別理據動物保護法部分條文修正草案等13案二 本院委員呂毅霖等16人"},{"start":1881.124,"end":1904.589,"text":"委員張志倫等16人 委員葉元之等17人 分別擬據動物保護法第10條調研修正草案等3案3 本院委員呂玉玲等16人 委員楊瓊瑩等21人 委員張鴻祿等17人 委員郭益勤等16人分別擬據動物保護法第25條及第25條之1調研修正草案等4案4 本院委員葉元之等17人及台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬據動物保護法第25條之2調研修正草案等2案"},{"start":1905.43,"end":1929.817,"text":"5.本院委員林大化等21人拟據 動物保護法第14條之一 第14條之二及第30條條文修正草案4.本院委員鄭天才等16人拟據 動物保護法第2條及第10條條文修正草案7.本院委員陳廷飛等18人拟據 動物保護法第5條第20條及第25條條文修正草案8.本院委員臺灣民眾黨黨團拟據 動物保護法第2條及第5條條文修正草案"},{"start":1930.931,"end":1941.248,"text":"9 本院委員葉元之等17人 委員郭玉琴等21人分別擬具動物保護法 增訂第14條之三 調研修正等調研修正草案等二案然後"},{"start":1942.639,"end":1962.445,"text":"10 本院委員葉願志等17人 委員吳沛義等16人分別擬具動物保護法第25條條文修正草案等二案11 本院委員游皓等23人擬具動物保護法第25條之一條文修正草案12 本院委員吳沛義等17人擬具動物保護法第22條之四條文修正草案13 本院委員賴銳隆等17人擬具動物保護法第2條及第6條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":1964.906,"end":1992.185,"text":"14 本院委員鄭振銓等19人擬拒動物保護法第32條條文修正草案15 本院委員羅志強等16人擬拒動物保護法第23條條文修正草案16 本院委員郭益勤等19人擬拒動物保護法第25條之二及第33條之二條文修正草案17 本院委員邱若驊等16人擬拒動物保護法第25條之二第33條之二及第33條之三條文修正草案18 本院委員賴銳榮等16人擬拒動物保護法第3條及第5條條文修正草案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2001.277,"end":2009.682,"text":"好 那麼我們首先來介紹在場的委員以及官員我們在場的委員有我們的李玉玲委員以及"},{"start":2010.99,"end":2033.395,"text":"郭玉琴委員 謝謝我們農業部杜長志 謝謝以及環境部化學物理管理署孫組長還有內政部警政署人事室的劉副主任經濟部商業發展署的陳副署長法務部法制司"},{"start":2035.735,"end":2056.106,"text":"李檢察官 謝謝以及教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖專門委員 謝謝以及國科會生命科學研究發展處圖副處長 謝謝以及衛福部政府司長"},{"start":2057.871,"end":2078.431,"text":"還有訴法部法務處長張處長 謝謝國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處蔡莊夢委員好 那麼我們現在來請登記第一位的我們的郭益勤委員請做提案說明 謝謝"},{"start":2085.796,"end":2096.512,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天特別排這個就是修法的審查那非常的高興因為我想在動保法的部分其實我也提出了非常多的一些版本"},{"start":2097.165,"end":2116.413,"text":"我想近年來大家對於所謂的動物保護的一個重視 那還有期待其實也是與日俱增 但是現行我們的這個動保法的相關的一些法令或者是規範的在這個刑度跟法則的部分 其實還是有明顯的不足 跟社會的期待其實是有落差的"},{"start":2116.909,"end":2144.778,"text":"那也沒有辦法能夠有效的遏止所謂的惡性虐待的行為跟非法寵物市場的一個持續的擴張那麼為了要回應這個社會強烈的一個要求所以在這個部分我們也希望能夠來補強法律上的一個漏洞那我想我的修法的版本其實有三大重點第一個就是要強化虐待的動物行則回應重大的社會事件我想近幾年來接連發生多起的一些嚴重的虐殺"},{"start":2145.911,"end":2174.615,"text":"動物的這樣子的一個案件喔 那麼包含這個越崎的移工在台灣呢從事所謂的販賣狗肉 虐殺的動物 然後來牟利這樣的案件或者是在南投的陳姓男子以假冒動保人士之名喔那多起犯下了殘酷的虐死貓犬的這樣子的事件還有這個新北的坪林的山區用利器砍傷這個犬隻的惡性事件甚至在前一陣子這個高雄喔"},{"start":2175.066,"end":2203.26,"text":"就是有年輕人他是虐貓同時他是在微波爐還特別PO網那引起了大眾的公憤我想這類的案件其實頻率是越來越高那也對我們的社會善良風俗其實造成非常巨大的一個衝擊那這些往往施暴者都只有付出一點點的代價他其實就可以重返社會其實沒有辦法產生"},{"start":2204.008,"end":2226.304,"text":"以我們現在的現行的動保法其實沒有辦法產生這個嚇阻的作用甚至也沒有直接的證據所以他們可能就一犯會再犯那這次我的這個修法的版本是把這個虐待動物的志祺重傷以及死亡的一個刑度從現行的兩年以下那提高到三年以下那同步的提高的罰金是從30萬到300萬那希望能夠提升這個嚇阻率"},{"start":2231.414,"end":2259.325,"text":"那另外就是針對重大的一個情節者那明定加重其刑大概二分之一那麼不得一顆罰金那對於所謂有預謀或者是前科再犯或在這個社群網路上公開的直播虐待行為者也更明確的要將其納入所謂的重重處罰的一個對象那我想唯有透過這個強化刑度那麼限制一顆罰金提高罰金的一個額度"},{"start":2259.758,"end":2288.338,"text":"才能夠真正的有效去遏止所謂的惡性虐待的一個行為喔那第二個重點的是在補強這個非法繁殖場跟地下寵物市場的一個執法的缺口喔現在司法的問題司繁的問題其實是非常的嚴重喔那以現行的動保法第25條之2規定這個非法盈利的人就是他沒有特寵證他最低的罰則罰款其實也是偏低"},{"start":2289.431,"end":2315.298,"text":"那麼其實他嚴重的弱化了這個源頭的管理喔那另外呢在這個第33條之2第3項的規定喔只有規定這個主管機關得發給檢舉獎金那麼導致各地方的執行的標準其實是不一的喔所以這民眾呢他們檢舉這所謂的私販的這樣子的一個案件等於意願也不足那麼也會影響我們查緝的一個效率喔"},{"start":2315.683,"end":2342.811,"text":"所以在這個地方我特別在修法的重點包含提高非法繁殖跟販售業者最低的罰款那麼讓他不能再用極低的一個成本來從事所謂的非法繁殖這樣的一個暴力的行為那另外從這個檢舉獎金的一個獎勵的一個制度從得改為因來建立這個全國一致的一個執行的標準來提升這個檢舉的誘因"},{"start":2344.076,"end":2371.89,"text":"那另外第三個就是我一直不斷的在強調就是要強化源頭的管理跟跨縣市查緝的一個效率那使得這個非法的繁殖黑市能夠無所遁形那希望藉此修法能夠打擊這個地下的繁殖場那另外的這個修法的必要性跟期待的效益那我相信這個本次的修法我們是希望第一能夠反映社會對於嚴懲虐待動物的一個主流民意"},{"start":2372.54,"end":2382.068,"text":"那第二就是要透過加重刑度跟限制醫科罰金來遏止預謀性或者是高殘忍虐度的這樣子的一個犯罪行為"},{"start":2382.861,"end":2405.535,"text":"那第三就是要強化非法繁殖場的一個交易跟查緝的力度那在第四希望能夠建立一致且明確的檢舉獎金的制度提高全民來參與喔那另外呢就是在動保法我們希望能夠藉由這次的修法真正具備保護動物跟防止再犯的功能喔好 以上報告"},{"start":2406.897,"end":2420.527,"text":"谢谢郭委员的提案说明谢谢那各位同仁针对上次会议议事录有错误那无错误我们议事录确认那继续我们请吕玉玲委员请做提案说明谢谢"},{"start":2428.099,"end":2446.401,"text":"谢谢主席 大家好今天动保法的修正草案本席有两个提案第一个就是动物保护法的第十条有鉴于动物保护议题已经成为国际社会的普世价值国内动物保护的意识已经提升了但是以动物作为交换"},{"start":2447.082,"end":2463.87,"text":"跟鲙鱼的经济行为已经严重的危害了动物的生命权台湾各地的夜市还有市场园游会的场域常常有小动物作为付费游戏赠品的惯例像大量的鼠 兔 鱼还有鸟类两棲"},{"start":2464.91,"end":2488.946,"text":"两棲类跟爬虫类等各种的非犬猫动物都被视为是游戏的赠品随意的赠予除了现场环境不佳还有游戏的过程非常的不人道恐造成动物的伤害后续呢更衍生了饲养不当及弃养的问题同时恶意伤害了动物的致死的事件是实有所闻的也引起了"},{"start":2489.286,"end":2496.024,"text":"社會的公分現行的動物保護法的第十條第三款雖然有明定對動物不得有"},{"start":2497.611,"end":2525.641,"text":"有的行为包括是以直接间接赌博或者其他不当的目的而有虐待动物的情势进行动物交换或者是赠予而游戏娱乐难以被列为这个是赌博或不当的目的只有在稽查当下无发现有虐待动物的情况才往往难以落实了动物的保护所以呢提案要修正条文第10条无论是否"},{"start":2526.101,"end":2552.929,"text":"有虐待动物的情势一律是禁止动物作为正品的行为以增进动物的福祉另外在第25条跟25条之一鉴于动物保护的观念社会兴起了而虐待动物的情势时有所闻纵观其他的世界先进国家对于虐待动物的罚则以美国跟日本为例美国是最高处以7年的监禁日本"},{"start":2553.689,"end":2580.077,"text":"是面臨的最高5年的監禁或者是500萬日元的罰款顯見我國現行的罰金跟刑責無法去有效二指類似的事件難以達到動物保護的目的所以要提高刑責罰金的必要另外就是現有的法規定罪的前提是以複數動物死亡為要件所以要刪除此前提"},{"start":2580.877,"end":2609.353,"text":"並且要增訂暴力或施以其他凌虐方式應該予以重罰 以嚇阻虐待動物的行徑一再的發生所以請大家都能夠支持此案 以上好 謝謝李委員的提案說明現在請我們的召委楊瓊妮委員提案說明"},{"start":2614.177,"end":2628.402,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言本院委員楊瓊英 羅廷偉洪孟凱等21人鑑於惡意傷害動物致死傷之事件屢見不宣引起了社會的公憤實際上因為"},{"start":2630.604,"end":2645.275,"text":"傷動物的案件之判定標準非常的嚴苛致使許多明顯有虐待動物的事實之情況卻沒有辦法依照動物保護法來懲處時有修法之必要所以本席提案並刪除動物虛為"},{"start":2648.977,"end":2675.525,"text":"復甦之前提復甦之前提那增加暴力或施以其他凌虐方式致動物死亡情節重大者也因應相關的這個法則來論處以減緩虐待動物事件的發生那落實動物權益的一個維護所以我們凝聚了動物保護法第25條及25條之一的條文修正草案主要的重點在於在我們第25條之一"},{"start":2677.345,"end":2697.008,"text":"的這個第一項裡頭暴力或施以其他凝略方式我們用如此來修正因為原先的條文是致複數動物死亡情節重大者所以我們認為在整個動物保護法的目的就是要真正要保護動物"},{"start":2697.869,"end":2725.857,"text":"不被凝略不再傷害而不是因為必須要有複數以上不以數量而是以實際的行動那也敬請行政部門以及各位同仁大家來支持 謝謝好 謝謝現在我們請農業部杜文貞次長就委員提案進行報告 謝謝"},{"start":2734.189,"end":2758.906,"text":"好主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早那首先其實代表農業部其實要謝謝委員會的各位委員其實對於本部各項業務的支持及策略那特別是今年豆瓣法因為其實我們一共收到了38個委員的提案那我先簡單的說明因為詳細資料有在書面簡單說明其實這次的修法啟動預告之後我們收到非常"},{"start":2759.866,"end":2776.201,"text":"多的這個民眾的意見那經過會診之後其實也在我們的動物之一委員會經過討論決定把這個有高度社會共識的急迫要成立的要修正的先提出來做這次的修正那經過比較"},{"start":2779.804,"end":2806.886,"text":"38份委員的意見其實跟我們的其實有高度類似的大概在第一個是在加強飼主的責任包括對於棄養的認知包括分級管理包括對犬貓絕育這個是有高度共識那第二個部分是在提升收容的管理這塊也有高度共識包括我們現在收容處所的協助然後包括他們的品質在那個平健部分其實這也有高度共識那第三個剛剛提案委員也有提到就是怎麼強化動物保護"},{"start":2807.546,"end":2831.589,"text":"特別是對於有重大虐待傷害或是有惡意的傷害的行為應該要加重刑責的這一塊而且怎麼確保這些動物後續的沒入跟收容這塊也有高度共識這也在我們這一次的修法的內容裡面第四個修法內容也是剛剛委員有提到有共識就是說對於源頭包括這些繁殖買賣特定寵物的"},{"start":2832.27,"end":2848.54,"text":"源頭跟流向管理這個也應該要特別來加重來做法規上面的規範那第五個最重要就是我們的動保檢察員在現場執行的時候如何能夠提供及時而且有效的進入場所協助把這些應該被"},{"start":2850.261,"end":2870.53,"text":"收容或是該被救助的這些動物提供保護我想這在這次的修法裡面提出來也是在委員38案裡面有高度共識的26條那委員提案其實有一部分是因為我們的法案已經在行政院審議中所以陸續提出來但是沒有納入我們這次修法但是也有些條文確實是可以拿出來討論的一共有12條"},{"start":2871.73,"end":2900.448,"text":"那其他有一些可能需要比较社会大众还要在沟通的跟各个利害关系人沟通还有许多话在持续的在38案里面有15条所以以上先简单回应那我们还是非常感谢各位对动物保护的这件事情的重视也愿意提供更好的在法案上面的修正以为我们在动物保护的作为上面有更具体的依据跟法规来做处理还是要谢谢委员会的帮忙谢谢"},{"start":2902.335,"end":2923.492,"text":"好 謝謝杜次長的說明謝謝 那麼現在有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報本日議程討論事項合併詢答委員詢答諮詢前我們依照慣例主席台做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間"},{"start":2924.733,"end":2946.698,"text":"本委員會5分鐘必要時加1分非本委會4分鐘那上午10點半截止登記那首先我們來請登記第一位的林黛華委員請發言那因為今天呢登記的委員非常多所以我們的時間掌控謝謝好有請次長我們請次長"},{"start":2954.363,"end":2978.18,"text":"委員好好 市長我們讓動保執行更有力動保法的修法要盡痛苦也要補人手好 我針對本席今天的提案我們來看這個山豬調直至今日獵人能繼續再放山豬調你看那邊我嘗試的去放上幾張比較不殘忍的圖"},{"start":2980.221,"end":3000.067,"text":"這樣的山豬吊不論是流浪犬或甲犬都可能是活在隨時斷腿的風險中它不是只針對保育動物而已那捕獸甲的氾濫經常也造成無辜的動物受傷除非及時的搶救否則它們百分百會落得劫肢的下場"},{"start":3001.207,"end":3019.506,"text":"那所以呢本席的提案是全面禁止陷阱納入網路平台的責任以及徵定刑責這邊有事項第一個全面禁止使用製造販賣持有廣告教學輸出入這個補售假與刪除掉本席的修法重點"},{"start":3019.926,"end":3041.288,"text":"二是增列了電極項圈為禁止項目品第三增列入網路交易的責任要求移除或限制違法的網頁內容第四個增訂五年內如果故意在犯者處兩年以下的有期徒刑這是本席跟21個委員共同的一個訴求"},{"start":3043.03,"end":3049.296,"text":"這是目前所有的修法版本中唯一將持有販賣販售廣告教學納入禁止範圍的版本本息針對陷阱氾濫導致的犬貓食腐草蕭等保育動物的誤傷提出具體的修法"},{"start":3060.287,"end":3077.469,"text":"這樣的修法不是新增條文而是希望不要再讓動物被慢慢的痛死這樣這條的修法不只是保護動物更是檢視政府是否能夠真正落實生命尊嚴次長您怎麼看本席的修法呢"},{"start":3078.457,"end":3100.512,"text":"首先还是要谢谢委员,因为第一个是考量到现场的执行量,刚刚委员在第一章的时候就有提到,因为其实各县市在处理动保业务确实是压力很大,但是其实我们所有的作为的前提是保护动物,所以谢谢委员提出来,就是禁止这个售价现在已经禁止,我相信委员应该是知道,也禁止制造跟贩卖,制造贩卖都禁止了。"},{"start":3100.612,"end":3116.735,"text":"那至于我们现在有改良式的列具其实我们是在推广就是说对于这些不小心踏入陷阱的也能够有一定的好 那针对广告教学这个您怎么看呢在三株调"},{"start":3117.396,"end":3147.016,"text":"是 在我们在网络的部分其实我们也跟那个NCC跟术发部这边有在做怎么在网络上面做屏蔽或是说所以你是支持本席的修法我觉得这一次的部分应该要在其实现在在网络上面的一些违规的样态我们在跟术发部跟NCC在谈的就是说所以对本席的修法你是支持还不支持是你要提反对意见还是有条件支持我没有反对意见谢谢委员提出来但是在立法上面怎么做成一致性的执行可行这样子的方式在做"},{"start":3147.576,"end":3174.669,"text":"好那我們在修法條文再討論吧好再來沒有受益的動保政策形同棄守防疫的最前線在4月的時候本席就提過動保法的修法的關鍵不是條文而是人經過半年後的今天我要很嚴肅的提醒各位這場的人力荒已經成為國家防線的裂口台中非洲豬瘟的疫情爆發之後地方政府第一時間把責任推給了受益人員"},{"start":3175.829,"end":3195.535,"text":"這樣的氛圍只會讓更多年輕的獸醫不敢進入公職體系但請問沒有獸醫誰來執行防疫誰來查核屠宰管制檢疫包括誰來落職我們剛修的動保法所以今天本期要講的兩個更根本的問題法要修得對人要補"},{"start":3197.015,"end":3218.121,"text":"好我就舉這幾個報導跟學者之間的提出的呼籲動保法的空轉的原因是公職獸醫師荒在聯合報今年1月的時候就提出了目前有台灣目前有6000位的多名獸醫師但公職獸醫僅佔一成去年2024年全國的公職獸醫師卻35人報考只有10人"},{"start":3223.522,"end":3239.021,"text":"实际报道的不到五人也就是录取的人数远少于缺额中心大学的受益学院的院长陈德勋陈院长他也提出了1987年的时候毕业升三分之一是进到公部门现在仅剩10%"},{"start":3240.242,"end":3257.969,"text":"他也就說了這樣下去非洲豬瘟禽流管狂犬病等政策將無人可執行所以法律的條文當然可以寫得漂亮但執行的人已經撐不下去了好我們再來看在上個月這個也有這樣的報導"},{"start":3259.249,"end":3279.776,"text":"工職獸醫師荒的原因是錢少勢多苗栗縣動保所編制18人其中13位獸醫師一人就要管200萬隻的家禽收容所的工作呢更坦言說一人要負責100隻的犬貓所以呢這個光是洗澡就體力透支了"},{"start":3280.436,"end":3297.602,"text":"到新竹市的動保所所編制的4位獸醫限職僅兩位要辦理全市的動保防疫醫療三線的任務好在這邊本席具體要求現況盤點跟危機因應請農業部於一個月內提出全國公職獸醫人力盤點報告"},{"start":3300.303,"end":3322.108,"text":"內容當然包括各縣市的動保署防疫所收容所現有與缺額數這不只是數據而是修法後能否執行的底線我就舉澳洲為例其實他對於受益人力缺口亦有官方報告而且強調需要定期人力資料庫化以支撐政策的這個是目前我們"},{"start":3322.768,"end":3343.58,"text":"没有做的那在危机的因应上呢农业部也应该严理于民间受益建立开口契约的合作机制公私协力建立短期调派的弹性机制我就举这两个国家美国旧金山政府与民间签订的受益签订的这样的一个框架契约英国警政"},{"start":3344.68,"end":3370.36,"text":"机关也采用这种框架基约聘用兽医来处理紧急事件那次长你怎么看这两个要求呢谢谢委员提出非常正确也非常需要是我们需要的那在兽医人力盘点的部分在第52次的中央灾严变中心非洲中央灾严变中心已经请各县市提出来因为我们也看到确实人力不够那在有动物疫病发生的时候其实是不够的"},{"start":3370.76,"end":3396.888,"text":"所以其实已经有这个请各县市提出来这是第一点那第二点也谢谢委员提出来公司协力确实是重要有些不见得需要受益做的其实可以引进民间人力第二个像上次我们在处理牛洁接诊的时候其实不只私人受益退休受益还有学校的老师都带受益系的学生出来帮忙打牛洁接诊疫苗所以我们愿意用这样子的方式其实让受益人力更多但是重点还是各县市缺乏公职受益这是事实我们会来盘点"},{"start":3397.128,"end":3417.627,"text":"那就希望您在這個報告當中也寫出你的解方好那在這邊本席要求的是農業部推動這兩件事情確保縣警全面禁用網路平台負起責任第二個用開口契約來補助現場的人力動物的痛苦不該被緩慢等待的行政程序延長"},{"start":3418.528,"end":3445.827,"text":"执法人员的疲劳也不该被制度默许所以今天本席的两大重点动保法修法因同时尽痛苦的陷阱这是对动物的尊重也补上缺席的人力但站在第一线半夜还在消毒抓狗救鸟的人力得以永续那本席另外要提一点就是次长你很清楚我长期在推动物的这个尤其是宠物的公益血库"},{"start":3446.667,"end":3476.287,"text":"那我對農業部是非常非常的不滿意我覺得你們是新任的部長每次都有新的我個人都有新的期待但是每每期待我都是落空因為你們真的是只是在做每一個部長都是在做救急的工作都沒有一個開展性沒有一個前瞻性這個你們都說口口聲聲都這麼保護動物也有寵物寵物的一個專門的一個單位了"},{"start":3476.867,"end":3487.194,"text":"你們對於他的醫療有沒有重視 沒有啊那你們的動物醫療當中需不需要學啊次長您回答一下要不要學"},{"start":3488.308,"end":3510.958,"text":"謝謝委員 這件事情確實是在現場職業受益師確實有這樣子的需要那我們也才朝這個方向去做因為在調度血液的時候確實你覺得你這樣進度滿意嗎 從本席提出到現在目前平台已經建立了你自己打幾分啊 次長沒有啦 我們剛剛給你拍完手啦但是平台有建立而且我們屏東科技大學的醫療醫院我給你打30分啦"},{"start":3511.838,"end":3532.229,"text":"政府當然只有30分啊因為二三十分還是累積於這個學術單位啊那你的70分應該是要你政府單位做的我真的覺得非常不滿意一點開創性都沒有口口聲聲說希望這個保護動物我都覺得根本就是在殘害動物公司協力會繼續往前走 謝謝好非常感謝 謝謝"},{"start":3538.564,"end":3559.84,"text":"好 接下来我们请郑天才委员请做询答 谢谢好 主席 有请次长我们请次长"},{"start":3565.717,"end":3588.174,"text":"委員好市長好今天我們審查的是動物保護法以農業部所主管的法例除了這個動物保護法跟動物有關的還有另外一個法野生動物保育法野生動物保育法所以這兩個法例當然"},{"start":3589.659,"end":3615.089,"text":"就动物的定义来讲这个动物保护法它的立法的目的以及相关的这些动物的定义它都有一个很明确的定义所以跟这个野生动物保育法的立法的目的以及"},{"start":3616.958,"end":3635.931,"text":"它的對所謂的野生動物都有非常明確不同的這些定義所以今天的有一些提案所以農業部應該要做比較我剛講的那個"},{"start":3638.411,"end":3666.089,"text":"兩個不同的法例兩個不同的定義所以他的立法的目的也不同所以應該要針對怎麼樣不要互相跨過去這個部分要還是要說明清楚因為我看你們的報告裡面並沒有把它做一個說明清楚所以也許提案的委員就不是很清楚所以這個部分也要請這個"},{"start":3667.892,"end":3696.517,"text":"農業部來做比較妥善的說明當然很多這個提案到時候也會逐條討論逐條討論的時候到時候也請做比較明確的說明好 接下來這個因為現在昨天昨天立法院通過了這個馬灘西淹社福災後重建的特別預算"},{"start":3698.067,"end":3720.225,"text":"跟農業部有關的花蓮光復還有鳳林還有望龍他們都很期待農業部有關農業的部分能夠有更多的協助但是我們看這個"},{"start":3722.108,"end":3750.628,"text":"房屋周边的这些土石堆积如山都还堆积在这边这个乡亲就觉得说已经两个多月了怎么会还这些土石这个都是农田农田跟农田都是跟农业部有关系所以这个部分可能要请次长再交代这个"},{"start":3751.642,"end":3764.034,"text":"你們相關的署 負責的署這個 你看這個鄉親都覺得奇怪 怎麼會放那麼久次長你有所了解嗎"},{"start":3765.151,"end":3792.536,"text":"好謝謝委員關心特別剛剛第一個先破題了就是說其實動物保護法的修訂跟野生動物保育法其實這當中的有一些因為其實立法的緣由跟作用其實是不一樣的所以謝謝委員先提醒在我們接下來修法或討論其實應該要有這個把這個事情呈現出來這謝謝委員的提醒那就馬太那邊其實花蓮這次我只能講說其實災害來得很快但是復原其實"},{"start":3793.456,"end":3817.021,"text":"相對的慢那我也可以理解我們花蓮鄉親的心理的焦急那所以就農業部的部分其實我們現在大概是兩個部分第一個是在就上頭的這個堰塞湖或是在一些那個生態保育這塊其實我們持續在做但是就農田的部分農田的部分就50公分以下馬上可以開始做的部分在我們花改廠那邊已經開始在做協助"},{"start":3817.501,"end":3830.971,"text":"那這邊看起來是相對堆得比較高的這些還有土砂淹在那邊現在看起來是大概只先把這個人進出的路先拓了但是旁邊那些還有很多在那邊還要再處理那這個牽扯到很多"},{"start":3832.011,"end":3859.326,"text":"包括这些土砂的移除虽然我们的实验室已经去测试过那些山上留下来的土砂其实是没有重金属污染的但是只有掩在50就是累积50公分以下的是马上可以开始我们翻耕可以开始耕作这块我们会先来做谢谢委员关心这个一直留着这个主要是在那个佛祖街那个区块"},{"start":3860.384,"end":3884.529,"text":"它其實房屋旁邊都是農田本來都是農田所以這個部分是不是請你們負責的部門我們去看一下趕快要把它挖走 考慮一下怎麼來處理把它載走因為農田的部分當然比較淺的當然我們鄉親自己他們會去處理但是還是要協助像這個"},{"start":3887.897,"end":3902.183,"text":"農業部對於這個農業復建這個部分農地的垃圾的清潤農地土砂的處理這個是你們主管的這個你們怎麼樣在"},{"start":3903.342,"end":3918.335,"text":"跟那個環境部環境部跟農業部怎麼樣去共同的去處理我也質詢過農業那個環境部他就說是你們的我查了之後確實還是"},{"start":3920.018,"end":3947.176,"text":"這個整個農田水利署要去負責這個部分那之前我們會認為說是不是因為沒有經費那現在特別預算已經通過了就請這個農田水利署能夠積極的來處理好 謝謝委員支持謝謝好 謝謝好 非常感謝 謝謝接下來我們請邱毅委員請坐巡檔"},{"start":3963.919,"end":3991.536,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請一下次長我們再請次長委員好 次長早次長我想我們今天討論這個動保法關於這個虐待動物的刑責我們現在要把它加重那我在想就是說農業部這裡過去有沒有去考量到我們這個司法量刑的落差通常這些施暴者"},{"start":3992.864,"end":4021.006,"text":"被抓一次两次但是这个刑责其实相对来讲是低的有些时候可能法官的判决六个月以下他可以用一颗罚金就处理掉了但是他下次又会再来那这个司法量刑的落差还有包括心理辅导的机制我认为为什么会有人会想要去虐待动物是不是他在心理上面的有一些思想上面或者是他的一些心理"},{"start":4021.886,"end":4032.645,"text":"是有一些落差有一些偏差行為是有偏差的那這個心理輔導機制有沒有可能也可以讓你們去做一些同步的推動或者是一個再教育"},{"start":4033.672,"end":4052.229,"text":"市长好 谢谢委员支持因为我们也觉得就是说对于动物虐待的大概有两个层次第一个是他认为说其实罚则也不高委员说很高高的对那其实是非常错误的观念所以我们觉得就是说如果能够在司法量刑上面不管是罚则加高或是甚至有可以刑责"},{"start":4053.29,"end":4072.749,"text":"會開始覺得會痛覺得這個事情確實做錯了這樣其實可以達到這個防止或是在以後不要再發生動物虐待的事情這個我們謝謝委員也支持那另外在心理輔導這塊這可能得要衛福部其實我們主要有跟衛福部借接啦有些人他也許不見得是說對動物因為心理偏差或是思想上面有問題他覺得說"},{"start":4075.552,"end":4100.353,"text":"他沒有去傷害別人但是他傷害同婦這也是不對的觀念所以我們會跟衛福部這邊做借鑑這個部分我想可以可能還可以在跨部會去做一些討論可能是在教育上面或者是在一個心理輔導機制上面或許可以做一些搭配性的配合比如說我的量刑並沒有那麼重但是你必須接受多少小時的心理輔導免得他再做其他傷害別人或傷害自己的事"},{"start":4101.534,"end":4122.993,"text":"第二點我們要談到非法的寵物繁殖現行的條款現行的財閥大概最低是10萬塊我們對於非法的繁殖場我想10萬塊對他們來講是很輕微的罰款如果有一些非法的繁殖場他是繁殖民犬"},{"start":4125.982,"end":4132.348,"text":"這個隨便他在網路上或是到哪裡去販賣可能一直可以賣個幾十幾百的所以"},{"start":4133.385,"end":4155.194,"text":"次長您覺得我們現在如果把他的裁罰加重或者是說未來我認為他其實是可以用一支一支去計算您覺得呢 您同意我的看法嗎我覺得其實我們現在是10到300萬啦但是其實在法官量刑上面他願不願意說把他加重這件事情其實我們會跟司法單位再來做溝通因為其實"},{"start":4157.515,"end":4179.281,"text":"你的非法繁殖場如果因為他一定是繁殖他有可能都會去繁殖一些民犬他不會隨隨便便去繁殖一些名不見經或者是不是那麼樣名貴的犬第二個就是說我們查獲了這些非法繁殖場之後那些被繁殖的犬隻貓隻去哪裡怎麼辦怎麼收容"},{"start":4180.257,"end":4187.505,"text":"其實最近大概有幾個案子也是因為查到了有重罰那些被沒入的犬子其實都是去讓人家去認養"},{"start":4189.737,"end":4209.294,"text":"讓人家去認養那如果沒有被認養到的呢因為你認養的應該隻數犬數不會這麼多嘛你被查到的可能都是幾十隻那你的認養的數量是有限嘛那所以你的收容中心其實感覺上你的收容所一定也是瞬間爆滿一定也是不夠嘛謝謝委員那個未雨綢繆有時候開始沒有"},{"start":4211.155,"end":4235.098,"text":"最近幾個案例其實算是收養還順利但是總是要問與求謀萬一有那個認養不足的大量這個可能還是要去想一下當然我們一定是要加強查緝非法查緝這個非法的養繁殖那如果在查緝到了這個收容的部分可能這個我們也要去考量接下來我要請教一個時事題這個全面禁止廚餘養豬這個政策禮拜四會不會定案"},{"start":4236.777,"end":4262.584,"text":"如果說目前應該會盡早定案因為其實所有的養豬團裡都在等這個事情因為大家一般非洲豬運的一次大家都不能準色禮拜四明天的行政院會就會公佈嗎理論上好那你們現在如果依照我現在得到的狀態就是說我們未來其實就會全面禁止廚餘養豬但是有一個落日條款2026年是一整年的落日準備27年才會全面禁止嗎是不是目前的規劃是照這樣子"},{"start":4263.444,"end":4280.849,"text":"其實現在也是禁止的目前能夠養的都是有條件的對 禁檢中期有條件所以這個立場是不會變那第二個是我們前天跟22縣市溝通昨天跟養豬團體溝通養豬團體說他們覺得不能再忍受一次非洲豬瘟所以養豬團體認為越早越早結束越好"},{"start":4281.189,"end":4308.365,"text":"所以你的落日照27年開始其實我們的立場現在其實是緊急啦你如果要再飼養的那就做有條件有條件就是縣市政府如果有同意如果你能夠裝即時的監控車子要有GPS符合相關防衛這更是例外還有縣市的條件現在其實已經有15個縣市我認為是這樣啦你如果要全面即使是也不要做有條件啦現在核准的這一些廚餘養豬場我們應該要協助他退場"},{"start":4311.047,"end":4334.246,"text":"比如說要怎麼補助 要怎麼協助 讓他可以退場他那個設備未來可以專做什麼樣的使用這個我們應該要想好讓他退場的機制嘛包括你們現在有這一些年底以前你如果轉用飼料的話 你就會補助那明年 如果是你到明年呢 才開始補助就剩一半但是我覺得這個 有一點在騙人啦你現在已經12月啊"},{"start":4338.909,"end":4362.609,"text":"年底前就是27天27天你要叫他立刻轉成飼料補助我是覺得時間上可以再拉一下啦現在就在吃飼料啊我知道現在在吃飼料我是說是用廚餘養豬的如果他把它轉成飼料的話我感覺這個可以改時間上可以稍微再拉一下不要讓人家覺得你願意補助我但是那個時間拉得很短"},{"start":4363.549,"end":4389.679,"text":"那你的這個落日的期間的加強的措施我覺得這個還是要加強取締但是這些廚餘哪裡去這個我們看到是台中的廚餘垃圾山廚餘坑那當然廚餘的處理不能像台中這樣子去處理那未來的這些廚餘去哪裡要怎麼辦當然廚餘不是農業部管但是農業部其實我們在禁止廚餘養豬的這個政策上"},{"start":4392.38,"end":4418.212,"text":"實施之後後續的這些廚餘的如何去化包括未來是不是能夠協助推動所謂的黑水盟的產業化我想這個農業部可以跟環境部帶大家來充分的來溝通一下包括黑水盟的這個場域能不能設在農地上面能不能在我們的農村裡頭或者是什麼樣的地方未來的這個廚餘廠他們能不能來"},{"start":4419.577,"end":4445.45,"text":"增設所謂的黑水盟的養殖區來解除去化這些廚餘或者是廚餘的處理能不能比照日本的模式用高壓然後把它乾燥變成顆粒狀變成飼料我覺得未來的這一些廚餘的產業化可能也需要農業部跟環境部一起來做協助好 謝謝委員提醒我們新聞一起跟環境部一起來做 謝謝OK 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4449.605,"end":4469.395,"text":"接下來我們請鄭正前委員請做詢答 謝謝謝謝主席 我想請一下杜汶珍次長好 我們再請次長委員好"},{"start":4470.311,"end":4485.509,"text":"次長好也謝謝主席今天特別安排了一個凍飽法的修法因為這一次的修法當中的時候其實本席也提出了一個修法針對32條那對32條這部分的時候其實最主要是因為我們想把就是32條那麼第一"},{"start":4491.181,"end":4509.969,"text":"第一項第一款當中的一個有致死之魚這個部分把它給拿掉那為什麼會這樣子呢就是說之前在兩年前的時候新竹縣曾經發生過一個狀態就是有民眾發現有動物被虐待他就去蒐證蒐證了19段視頻後來舉報舉報之後呢然後縣政府的人也去了"},{"start":4516.471,"end":4525.346,"text":"然後去了之後去看一看之後的時候發現說好像這動物沒有受傷那牠怎麼樣子被虐待呢就說"},{"start":4527.735,"end":4554.447,"text":"踹打犬隻然後用繩索把嘴巴捆起來把它吊起來把狗頭放在水裡面壓到水裡面去19步視頻然後結果縣政府人去之後覺得說沒有受傷沒有致死之餘所以他沒有辦法沒路所以這次本溪人特別提出了一個修法的一個案件希望能夠把這個有致死之餘這邊把它拿掉"},{"start":4555.448,"end":4584.371,"text":"请问次长你针对这部分有没有什么看法谢谢委员提出来因为其实有时候是在判定的当下点没有看到伤害可是过程到底有没有造成虐待的事实我想应该是委员担心的所以我想对于这个所谓的虐待的定义这个我想我们应该要与时俱进来说其实在怎样的情形让现场重点是现场我们动物保护稽查人员到现场去的时候能够有更好的依据而不是依照个人觉得怎样应该要有更好的"},{"start":4584.711,"end":4599.631,"text":"所以就是说因为必须要与时俱进所以其实我们也认为这状态可是是因为像有些案子当中的时候比方说所谓的受伤他搞不好是内伤搞不好是怎么样而不是现场血流成河的状态所以说我们认为"},{"start":4600.131,"end":4620.288,"text":"比方說如果說有些氏族他以訓練之名行虐待之實這樣子一個狀態那我們希望就我們動保法修法的時候能夠讓我們的公權力其實有更好的一個切入的角度去保護我們的動物所以我們提出了這第32條的一個修法"},{"start":4622.976,"end":4631.032,"text":"請問農業部是不是也覺得就是有致死之魚這個部分是可以把它拿掉讓我們對動物的保護能夠有更完整"},{"start":4632.427,"end":4655.177,"text":"我想其實包括前面的不管是騷擾 虐待 傷害其實對動物都是一種不好的行為都應該要予以規範那至於有沒有至此之餘這件事我覺得是可以來討論因為其實只要有前面這個事實是造成動物的傷害所以說我們希望說這次修法當中的時候因為行政院版的動保法修法一直還沒有送進來我們也希望這個部分就是"},{"start":4656.858,"end":4672.611,"text":"農業部這邊能夠把我們這個有致死之魚這部分這幾個字把它給修掉納入院版一起來考量好不好謝謝委員的提醒我想這樣更完備謝謝次長那我接下來想請教一個部分就是因為最近日本他們的雄亥"},{"start":4673.952,"end":4698.292,"text":"就引起了很多的一個注意那麼他們對於整個日本的雄害的部分也開始有一些新的做法新的做法那針對這個日本的雄害的部分那我必須要考量到我們台灣其實也有一個喉害的一個狀態那上次在農業部夜報的時候部長特別提到如果說我們再不處理現在的喉害的問題"},{"start":4699.193,"end":4722.229,"text":"五年之後 猕猴就會進到我們市區去那針對這個部分的時候其實本席特別的關注那我們要怎麼樣來處理猴害的問題可不可以請次長具體回答好 謝謝委員提醒猴子確實是一個非常特別的野生動物因為牠聰明又領長類那其實我們現在在處理的也不是只有猴害比方說最近處理非洲豬瘟的時候"},{"start":4722.709,"end":4748.593,"text":"也有很多野树的问题所以我们是一并把这些事情一起来想就是说因为它有在不同地区有不同样态我们会推出不同的防治方法因为不只对农民或是对我们人类或是对疾病的传播其实都是我们要考量的一些方向所以喉嗨的部分其实我们现在也在就几个区域有些是因为是临近一些农作区那有些是因为像高雄中山大学那边因为是人"},{"start":4749.454,"end":4761.731,"text":"清淨的那個環境所以其實樣態不太一樣要怎麼去做我們會依照不同的地點按照農業部現在的一個統計估計就是說台灣大概現在大概這個猕猴造成我們的狀態大概有多少隻"},{"start":4771.625,"end":4790.139,"text":"我從媒體上面去查到一些資料從60萬到80萬都有人孤這麼大的一個量那這部分如果沒有好好去處理的時候我相信會造成我們很大的一個問題我們人跟野生動物當中的界線到底要在哪裡做一個分隔我覺得這部分農業部必須要很具體去"},{"start":4791.66,"end":4815.438,"text":"提出一個具體解決的方法那我們是不是能夠利用一個絕育的控制來控制這個量可是要怎麼去做到這絕育控制這又是另外一個問題因為日本現在對於雄害的部分他們是用撲殺的方式現在開始用撲殺的方式而且條件其實也在慢慢的鬆綁可是我們對於喉害的部分我們要怎麼去做處理尤其剛剛次長提到說"},{"start":4816.258,"end":4833.807,"text":"猴子是靈長類的狀態的時候考量我們可能又會更多更深刻一點所以這部分也請農業部這邊很具體提出一個我們要怎麼樣解決猴害的問題既然部長都已經提到五年之後猕猴就會進入市區那我們現在不處理什麼時候要處理"},{"start":4835.243,"end":4852.587,"text":"我想其实还是照不同地方应该要提出不同的方式不管是绝育也好或其实它现在已经不是保育类的动物我想其实都要有一套可以操作的方式来做那当然也要社会沟通我觉得这也是很重要所以我们希望这边大概什么时候可以提出个具体的一个做法"},{"start":4855.795,"end":4872.57,"text":"三個月我們來評估一下看包括剛剛那個多元的方式來做一下好三個月謝謝委員提醒三個月給我們一個怎麼樣解決台灣喉嗨作法因為在韓國他們有些是用無人機的方式然後去投一些相關的一些味道然後去"},{"start":4873.916,"end":4902.075,"text":"來控制猴害的一個產生那這邊也讓農業部這邊去做一個考量好 謝謝委員提醒那我最後這邊我特別問一個問題就是因為這一次的那個非洲豬瘟的時候其實我們也看到了很多的問題包括剛剛廚藝的部分已經要在2027年要解決那這已經有具體的狀態我這邊要特別提到一個就是經濟動物的獸醫的問題量完全的不足那我們目前針對這個部分有沒有什麼解決的方法"},{"start":4903.339,"end":4918.596,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為其實動物防疫確實不容易那特別是像有這種重大疾病的時候各縣市其實真的都很辛苦那我們現在已經有請各縣市去盤點他們的防疫受益師就是公職受益的缺口那我們希望能夠協助他們解決這樣的問題這是第一點"},{"start":4919.356,"end":4946.628,"text":"那第二點其實我們也引入公司協力啦因為其實有很多這個私人的動物獸醫師或者是退休獸醫師或是學校學校老師帶著學生其實也都是我們的協助的方式但是畢竟畢竟各縣市的公司獸醫確實是有缺口這個部分我就是現在這部分尤其經濟動物的獸醫完全的不夠這是我們從整個農業部相關的一個資料去統計出來的狀態"},{"start":4948.309,"end":4965.508,"text":"目前台湾一位兽医师包含兽医组要照顾平均35.1万头经济组当然包括鸡鸭类可是数字都是非常非常的多的光是以牛的部分来讲就是日本的五倍台湾的一个兽医师要"},{"start":4966.169,"end":4985.195,"text":"照顧的一個那個經濟動物大概是日本的五倍之多這完全的不足那現在當經濟獸醫經濟動物的獸醫不足的時候我們很多時候就是用那個公職獸醫師這邊來補來補這樣的一個缺口可是我們也看到公職的獸醫師量也完全的不夠"},{"start":4986.435,"end":5003.802,"text":"量也完全不夠 我想次長應該很清楚知道這個狀態那從今年6月份的時候我們有開始實施公職獸醫師不開業獎金我想了解一下這個政策推出來到目前為止大概有多少公職獸醫師來申請這樣的一個不開業獎金"},{"start":5007.348,"end":5022.121,"text":"限職在職務上面都有領但是另外一個是我們因為提出公職獸醫師的不開獎金之後有52位公職獸醫回任了所以確實是有一些緩解這個需求但是其實還是不夠有52位獸醫師回任了"},{"start":5023.462,"end":5037.589,"text":"那我想這個獸醫師的部分 尤其是經濟動物的獸醫師的部分的時候請農業部這邊來看 怎麼樣子來把這個制度調好因為這是整個系統的一個問題 那量完全的不夠我們要怎麼去補 請農業部這邊好好的來解決這個問題謝謝委員提醒 謝謝接下來我們請陳廷輝委員請做詢談 謝謝"},{"start":5053.152,"end":5076.982,"text":"謝謝昭緯 我們請次長我們再請杜次長委員好 次長好我先詢問一下 因為其實最近在我們台南大家都在討論一個議題也就是說我們對於流浪權我們原地在回放"},{"start":5077.762,"end":5098.883,"text":"也就是说我们如果很多流浪狗然后我们这个动保处去把它做一个处理之后但是结扎完又原地回放所以这个议题大家一直在讨论说这个政策是对的吗因为其实应该如果看到很多的画面"},{"start":5100.134,"end":5123.355,"text":"很多的学校门口几乎就是我们的流浪犬然后在现场晒日光雨小朋友都很担心很害怕家长也很担心很害怕那么因为反应之后学校通报我们的市府相关单位也来做了处理处理之后"},{"start":5124.229,"end":5152.749,"text":"他又马上回放回去然后到了一个礼拜之后还是一样晒日光雨所以在这个状态到底怎么样的政策才是对的市长好谢谢委员关心因为其实游荡犬的事情确实是现在各县市其实都会碰到特别是都会行的那应该这样说其实如果游荡犬有攻击人或追车又伤人或是有这些这个"},{"start":5154.741,"end":5170.749,"text":"比較具侵略性的行為其實我們在捕捉之後其實各縣市就不回放了所以在各縣市其實對這些曾經有這些應該叫做不良記錄的遊行犬抓了之後其實不回放這是第一點"},{"start":5171.369,"end":5187.971,"text":"那第二点台南市的做法其实我爱尔勒其实各县市要学习的第一个就是说我们以前的收容中心都是去就是水泥固定的啦那几个龙舍啦关起之狗那台南市有一个非常好的弹性做法就是他找一块地他用"},{"start":5189.008,"end":5207.326,"text":"他的檢疫其實一點都不檢疫其實狗狗的遮蔽啦 餵食啦 活動啦都沒有影響但是不去大間房裡面他就用小狗屋一戶一戶有啊這個在原的成功裡就是一個非常棒的其實是一個非常成功的案例"},{"start":5207.446,"end":5225.771,"text":"那其实我们也把这样子的案例就是跟各县市说与其你要新土木发包做那种硬体的那种是一种方式没有不能做但是其实这种更快速可以加大量能收容那也一样有动物保护效果的其实台南市是一个我们非常好的示范在做那你知道那一块地基本上就是台塘的用地"},{"start":5226.571,"end":5251.409,"text":"所以如果说我们可以来用我们国家的土地或国营的土地然后来做这样子其实这也是我们的一个思考方式那离人民就有点远了就不是在弯道的出兵因为弯道的出兵大家会欢乐嘛那如果你用这些比较在林地或是国有地或是我们国营的土地"},{"start":5252.35,"end":5272.869,"text":"那在做这样的一个简易处理我觉得它就非常有意义那我们是不是应该达到收容的效果对我们是不是应该要盘整因为其实这是很多家长跟我的反应他说有当时候在流荡泉然后在这个学校的大门口晒日光玉"},{"start":5273.57,"end":5288.665,"text":"然後他們通報學校學校有處理但是一個禮拜之後又回放又一樣看到整個流蕩犬曬日光雨雖然他們並沒有任何攻擊可是小朋友看了會不會怕"},{"start":5289.824,"end":5309.273,"text":"好 所以謝謝委員提醒那像剛剛我們提到就是說我們也再來盤整有沒有地國家的地可以拿出來那也跟各縣市做媒合晚歷來這屆的簡歷式的收容把量能擴大然後快速可以完成其實大家都願意因為你知道人的成功裡那一塊土地就是我跟台糖溝通的"},{"start":5310.492,"end":5330.169,"text":"那我覺得里長也很棒里長跟溝通李明然後李明同意他先從李明同意而不是說我們先做了然後讓李明知道了然後李明就說不行為什麼你為這個還沒有告訴我們你就已經去做了這樣的決定所以他是由"},{"start":5331.01,"end":5354.265,"text":"里民都同意然后我们才来争取台塘的土地来再争取这个中央的预算跟地方的预算非常谢谢委员支持那真是一个很好的成功的范例我们现在都是国管企业的公共其实台南是做得成那这样子的模范其实应该是可以来推广对 所以我觉得说中央跟地方要怎么样合作"},{"start":5354.865,"end":5377.76,"text":"因為最痛苦的就是爹嘛對 盤點一下台塘的土地跟人民距離比較遠的地方還有我們林務局的土地然後還有我們國有財產局的土地還有國營會的相關我覺得這個都是我們可以來做這個協助也就是說它沒有什麼攻擊性"},{"start":5378.641,"end":5400.818,"text":"可是你再回放回去還是一樣沒有解決問題那如果我們可以找這些場所然後讓我們流蕩犬也可以站在動物的自由權然後又不影響他這個所謂的民眾的安心跟他的恐慌我覺得這個部分我們就應該來做這個平台"},{"start":5403.96,"end":5427.133,"text":"謝謝委員支持我覺得這個我們可以來努力因為台南已經有這個案例了我覺得我們就應該來做然後第二個部分就是說我們再次這個動物保護法的一個審查那這當中我有提版本在這個家中虐待動物的刑責這個部分基本上我們過去有太多的案例了"},{"start":5428.004,"end":5453.36,"text":"也就是說你如果沒有加重刑責的話不怕啦大家不怕那還有就是說你飼主寵物管理的責任這個也很重要也就是說我們都是愛動物的我們都是疼惜動物的那當然我們要盡到能夠保護動物跟人之間的衝突"},{"start":5454.874,"end":5480.376,"text":"這要避免所以當然我們是不是應該要有所謂的飼主寵物管理的責任這個我們應該也要以相關的配套否則我很愛牠帶出去之後然後因為不小心我們沒有照顧看好一時之間因為人跟動物之間一點點的"},{"start":5482.33,"end":5487.56,"text":"這個不確定是不信任感它就會發生我們無法預期的狀況"},{"start":5489.307,"end":5513.769,"text":"所以这个部分是不是我们也有针对我两个提案你们什么看法有 谢谢我们都支持因为其实第一个是事主本身的责任她自己爱的动物但是她的动物处理不太好就把人在这些地方第二她也爱她的动物但是不代表她可以虐待她的动物所以我想刚刚委员提的这两段我们都会纳进来做修正这个很重要因为我觉得我们把每一个人的责任"},{"start":5514.349,"end":5526.339,"text":"都弄清楚 對 非常清楚的明定達到動物保護的效果 對這樣就才能真正做到保護動物這樣的一個標準跟目標值謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請賴論委員請做詢答好 謝謝召委 請杜次長我們請杜次長"},{"start":5547.952,"end":5562.311,"text":"市長好委員好市長先請教一下我在今年的5月7號提出來我們的國家執行權我希望他能夠納保對於這些不管是檢疫權 緝毒權或者是警犬 搜救權 國防"},{"start":5563.152,"end":5589.886,"text":"軍犬這些都是為國家付出很多很重要啦而且他們也常遇到職業病甚至有面臨一些意外的一些傷害那我覺得國家應該給他們更多照顧那也很謝謝我看到了農業部好像也有考慮這個納入來投保了嘛在明年要來實施是不是已經全部納保了謝謝委員提醒這252支工作全部納保了很重要啦我覺得他們對國家的付出相當的多啦那我覺得對他們的也是我們對於"},{"start":5592.068,"end":5604.8,"text":"這個這些的執行權甚至對於我們所謂的這些動物的一個很重要的保護指標了也謝謝那個農業部那這個部分如果我們把它入法進來的話未來讓它常態化的話這個部裡面的看法呢"},{"start":5606.471,"end":5632.029,"text":"不要說只是剛好現在支持然後一直彎到不同的政黨執政或不同的首長的時候又有不同的看法了我們支持啦 其實應該要長期來做對 我覺得對於這個他們其實是國家很重要的一個夥伴了啦他們不只是動物 他們是我們很多夥伴我認為應該給予 好不好那我們就把它入法好不好我們在修法的時候一盤入法那我請教一下 像這樣的經費其實並不多啦像一年這樣估起來大概經費多少"},{"start":5632.642,"end":5661.841,"text":"大概五百萬左右 其實經費不多多少錢 五百萬其實並不多啦 以他們付出的你看光不要講 光一個非洲豬瘟對不對 他們那麼辛苦的在做這些 他們扮演的功能非常的重要對 這個非常 這個不是我們有辦法做的事情我覺得這個五百萬其實是非常值得的我希望就把它納入法令中 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝農業部再來我要請教啦我也有提到了有關於這個動物的寵物的一些"},{"start":5662.802,"end":5689.77,"text":"用品跟玩具啦我知道我們的食品有納入規範也很謝謝啦因為現在毛小孩很多甚至很多毛小孩扮演很重要的角色他對於人的這種陪伴跟他的這個有很多很重要的角色那我們有時候也常看到啦有時候在一些網路上面有的東西寵物的玩具一塊錢五塊錢十塊錢我們大家都理解啦一個賣一塊錢五塊十塊錢的東西他的品質真的是很難讓人完全放心啦"},{"start":5690.33,"end":5711.559,"text":"那在低價的狀況下他可能裡面很多的塑化很多的一些材質上有很多問題而這個在毛小孩他有可能在用這個用品的時候有可能就會傷害到他的身體更何況很多的家庭裡面也有其他的小孩他有可能也不小心就會所以我覺得這個也涉及到了毛小孩的安全也涉及到了整個家庭的環境的一個安全所以我是覺得這個應該"},{"start":5713.019,"end":5740.975,"text":"我們 我當然已經看到了也謝謝農業部啦在我經過質詢之後也有提出來一個選購的指南但是這個指南我覺得可能還不是那麼夠我會建議如果我們能夠評估把它納入到我們的我相信這個對於我們的動物保護法裡面也算是一大的進展當然我看到你們報告裡寫說現在國際沒有這樣明確規範但是台灣常常做很多也是我們領先在很多的國家前面的我覺得可以思考看看怎麼樣的方式給予一定的一些的規範"},{"start":5742.196,"end":5768.183,"text":"或者一個方向那至少讓更多的業者或更多的人民在選購的時候或者更多業者在他要販售的時候他必須要更多的一些提出更多的一些證明我們可以確保在不管是在哪裡買到實體商店或網路上我們買到的是一個比較安全的東西給我們的動物們給我們的毛小孩們甚至給我們的小朋友們他不小心可能會吃到更安全的保障市長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":5769.204,"end":5780.863,"text":"謝謝委員提醒也謝謝委員鞭策我們應該要去就這塊再去做但是就像剛剛委員提到確實現在是沒有國際標準所以其實我們自己去訂老實講也不太知道到底OK不OK因為其實"},{"start":5783.092,"end":5799.51,"text":"市長我知道不容易啦你看一下現在這麼多樣這一頁裡面顯示這麼多樣那很多的都很便宜啦1塊錢3塊10塊20塊50塊都有那這樣的東西其實毛小孩越來越重要現在我們的犬跟貓都成為很重要的毛小孩了"},{"start":5799.81,"end":5827.069,"text":"那大家很多人甚至於他們一旦有一天因為健康而離開的時候對人其實是很難過的我覺得這個甚至很多的比較年紀漸長的孩子長大了以後他可能變成很重要的陪伴他的陪伴有可能讓人會更加的健康所以我的意思是說我們把這些事情做得更好的時候其實會顯示出台灣對這件事情是重視的我希望這樣好不好次長三個月的時間提出一個你們的評估好不好努力看看好不好先讓我們評估一下三個月的時間提出一個報告給我們好不好"},{"start":5828.23,"end":5846.827,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝那再來我請教一下我知道現在開始這次的非洲豬瘟其實廚餘的部分有做很多的思考啦那我的想法是這樣其實很多的包括這個養豬協會等等的大家也擔憂啦就是說因為如果你沒有辦法廚餘好做處理的話有可能一旦再爆發一次的話那大概"},{"start":5847.747,"end":5872.888,"text":"台灣就真的我們的這些很可惜台灣豬隻的風險甚至台灣豬隻可能就沒辦法再出口了所以我覺得朝向禁用廚餘的方向大概是一個趨勢必須走的方向那我的想法是能不能再加快這樣的一個速度啦因為如果你一年的時間然後你這一年裡面有人又繼續投資了廚餘的設備又投資下去他到底要不要投資他投資了一年後不用了"},{"start":5873.288,"end":5897.368,"text":"那不投資這一年的風險就拉高了所以我覺得這件事情我反而認為的是我們應該盡快來做決定盡快來做一個禁用但是對於這些使用的部分給予該有的合理的補償協助讓他們轉型甚至於讓他們協助他們我覺得這才是一個快速決定的方案拖了一年的時間我覺得反而最後你一年後還是要禁的話那你何不就在這一年"},{"start":5898.249,"end":5921.368,"text":"儘快做決定不要拉出一年的風險這一年的風險萬一又再發生一次的非洲豬瘟因為除於有某一家業者又沒有一個小時90度的烹煮出了事情了萬一出現這樣狀況的話那恐怕來不及了你現在一年後再進也來不及了所以我想這是共識因為不能再發生不能再發生所以我的意思說既然大家是共識的話我們要不要加快去做這件事情"},{"start":5921.868,"end":5948.469,"text":"兩個方式做第一個是我們把補就是如果能夠轉做飼料的這個補貼我們把它加大引導過來這邊這是第一個那第二個再就是說其實是大家包括養豬協會他們其實對這件事情他們也認為說要不要不要一年呢早一點 越快越好啦所以我們希望就是說把這邊的拉力加大讓它能轉型過來那有些現在已經裝了一些設備的其實環境部也同意說不然說補一半嘛"},{"start":5948.829,"end":5963.849,"text":"沒關係啦 你如果專責治療我們就本來有設備我們都會全額給你賣給你順心所以病這兩個部分都有對 但我希望這邊再可以更積極更那個啦 就是說這件事情只要有一個破口出現的話你整套制度就全部沒有成功只要有一個"},{"start":5964.309,"end":5994.069,"text":"所以我的意思是說既然決定要做了我認為就加快速度那該補貼就補貼該支持就支持讓廚餘的部分就盡量不要再進入到豬隻的裡面去那這樣的方式這樣可以完全的堵絕掉這一年的風險你只要還是有這樣的制度在走的時候你就永遠風險存在那我要特別提醒那個小廠的要優先處理掉了好不好因為小廠的控制真的是完全難以控制你只要有一個廠出事情你整個台灣就又再毀一次了"},{"start":5994.209,"end":6011.417,"text":"所以我是說不要讓這種憾事再次發生好不好我希望就盡快的實施如果能夠立即實施然後給予這些已經投資的或是整個我們就去補助你補償你的損失然後讓你整個完全轉移的話那我們可以用最短的時間內讓我們的租資是最安全的"},{"start":6013.758,"end":6040.26,"text":"這是完全最沒有風險的方式因為我們很努力的在外面防堵但是你永遠不知道哪一個包裹或哪一個突然就一兩件跑進來一兩件跑進來萬一又進到廚藝裡面去又進到豬隻裡面去那又毀了那我在講的是我們不希望未來等到再次發生的時候遺憾當年早知道早知道我們全力來做我們立即來做我們就不會發生這事情那不要等到那時候影響了數千億的我們的豬隻的產值的時候才再後悔"},{"start":6040.58,"end":6051.749,"text":"我寧可是現在我們加大力道立即來做好不好我希望處於這些事情我們立即來做謝謝委員 謝謝委員支持好 謝謝接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢問"},{"start":6076.564,"end":6105.654,"text":"好我們請杜次長委員好剛剛聲音聽得到嗎有齁他們一直在陳情他們很緊張他們知道你們應該明天就要公佈嘛"},{"start":6107.148,"end":6122.106,"text":"那現在初步得到消息是說可能還有一年的落日今天執行非常非常重要他們說一定要轉達不要冒險可以的話就立即前面的禁止"},{"start":6123.527,"end":6151.785,"text":"因為風險太大了不是只有兩千億的這個經濟的這個損失的這個問題你看一個一個牧場或一個養豬場一發生那個事情全國都受害吃肉吃麵什麼那些都沒得吃了對生活影響也很大那更重要的這幾天西班牙也爆發了那個非洲豬瘟嘛你看西班牙你看那個伊比利斯"},{"start":6152.768,"end":6175.264,"text":"那個都很高級的 那個火腿都有進口到台灣的因為都怕不聽話他說他說最有可能的感染是因為什麼那個冷切肉啦 三明治啦 受污染那個食物被弄到垃圾桶裡面去了就變廚藝嘛所以真的是很危險啊 真的很危險另外今天我們在審這個凍飽法凍飽法的第五條第二項"},{"start":6176.846,"end":6202.716,"text":"第二項的第一款聯名訂啊你要給動物的是乾淨的食物啊他們那些年輕人給我看那個養豬聯盟給我看那個廚藝裡面那個髒的真的是好不好裡面甚至有些過期的藥都丟到裡面去了所以禁止是非常非常重要的那今天也要討論一個很重要的就是我看你們的政策裡面有提到說"},{"start":6203.8,"end":6233.363,"text":"一年 如果他又裝了這個GPS或者是這個溫度跟影像的這個監視器你知道嗎 這要多少錢養豬賺的錢是很辛苦的你叫他現在去裝這個 然後只能用一年這是菸往前啊也不最實際啊所以次長我非常明確的你現在的背景我非常明確 你明天宣布之前看不能不要再一年了啦就全面 立即 好不好"},{"start":6234.773,"end":6236.742,"text":"然後定...嘿 安娜你會回答吧"},{"start":6238.579,"end":6265.816,"text":"你盡量去爭取啦其實不是我嘛你今天聽到所有的立委都是這樣我們早上跟那個養豬協會其實也有說這個事情啦你早上一定都這樣說的嘛就是風險當然要盡快把它阻斷掉這個風險冒不得我們不可能再一次啦所以我想這個共識是有的那就剛剛這個現在簡報上面這個其實環境部也同意啦因為你說農民一間中這個GPS也好整潔影像系統也好"},{"start":6266.897,"end":6292.597,"text":"因為我們現在是加大力道然後鼓勵他趕快轉型他本身就有裝的就好你現在為了這年要去裝那個嗎那完工期啦所以就趕緊來轉型這個政策就不切實際啦你如果是一個養豬廠你假如現在去裝這個一年後就不能用所以趕緊提供轉型的飼料補貼趕緊對他吃治療而且那個補貼一定要加大加快力道加大這邊的力道我們來看國外怎麼做"},{"start":6294.949,"end":6321.177,"text":"日本就是全部都飼料化嘛所以你現在就是一直讓他飼料化這個廚藝都是說他要處理去化過程或者飼料化其實不只最好參考嘛那政府現在做什麼事情你就是讓你補助力道還要再加強好不好這個你要盡量去爭取好 謝謝要去幫他們爭取那另外就像韓國的處理也不錯啊韓國除了飼料之外他有肥料化甚至家庭的那個什麼燃料他都可以用啊可以能源化這生殖能啦對對好OK好來好我另外問一個有點緊張的事情"},{"start":6323.218,"end":6348.63,"text":"我給你談漁民的辛酸漁民啊 昏臨的漁民啊 5年前5年前喔有20多位在雲林的這個漁民啊一天的清純近百位的警察湧入雲林的台子港沙雕輪台寫的這個文桿到家裡面去搜索用什麼罪名"},{"start":6350.336,"end":6375.773,"text":"逮捕了這些居堤的這些漁民可憐的漁民還把他們上銬把他們帶走檢方後來還起訴他們什麼組織犯罪詐欺企裁為什麼要問農業部因為政府在推動綠能的時候業者入侵了他們的傳統的這個漁場結果他們以往變弄壞了"},{"start":6380.592,"end":6410.255,"text":"後來政府出面去做協調這本來就要賠嘛 本來就要賠嘛結果出現什麼事情竟然業者去告 檢方還起訴他們耶你看欺民大可憐 我長久在那邊捕魚啊你現在發展綠電結果你割破了漁網政府出面去協調 現在完了以後竟然還要被告大部分的純樸的這個移民啊沒辦法 就認罪協商了"},{"start":6411.257,"end":6439.5,"text":"有三個人我現在唸出他的名字李平順林青池跟賴品硯他們說他沒罪啊我們已經很委屈了啊所以我們在力爭到底後來在傅金杰的這個前夕判決沒有罪今天我為什麼要把這個拿出來做一個非常重要的質詢大家看一下他們被用組織犯罪跟詐欺起財大家看一下連媒體喔看下一張"},{"start":6440.834,"end":6466.656,"text":"媒體都把他們稱為叫什麼利人蟑螂今天我要請次長做幾件很重要的這個事情我們的漁民那麼的純樸他們帶有維生的儀場被入侵了結果他們叫天天不領 叫地地不應現在還好司法還給他們清白了次長你們回去討論一下是不是至少去看這幾個20幾個這個漁民好不好"},{"start":6471.531,"end":6489.092,"text":"農業部第一個很具體的 我很具體的要求去看看這些受害的漁民 這是第一個第二個 當政府在推動綠能的時候如果讓某些漁民或者農民生計上受到很大的衝擊你們要多幫農民跟漁民講講話 好不好"},{"start":6491.158,"end":6513.454,"text":"感謝委員跟我們一樣其實對我們的農民和漁民總是站在第一線要關心 要跟他們合作我想這個案子我們去了解一下因為要關心一下到底發生什麼事謝謝委員因為我們說台灣的漁民已經靠我們了解不然就叫我們的農民漁民了謝謝委員我們台灣的漁民三十二萬五千人高雄的七萬萬分林七萬分林七分林三萬萬"},{"start":6514.295,"end":6539.736,"text":"我阿凱的故鄉嘉義也有15000人在那裡從事漁業可是他們現在在整個推動那個利潤過程不管是光電或者是海上這個風機有受到一些衝擊請農業部要多幫他們那我今天這個個案非常非常的明確他們真的很心酸 去看看他們謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝非常感謝 謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員請做巡檔"},{"start":6548.222,"end":6550.586,"text":"謝謝主席我想請杜次長我們請杜次長"},{"start":6557.884,"end":6579.481,"text":"委員好市長辛苦了那我想多位委員都提出說禁止廚餘養豬這件事情那本席從爆發那一天就不斷的呼籲農業部一定要徹底的禁止廚餘養豬否則台灣再爆發的風險是非常非常高的但我想你們的部長不曉得是有什麼樣的壓力他一直不肯鬆口然後也不肯答應我們所有的養豬"},{"start":6585.966,"end":6614.715,"text":"業者甚至我們委員會所有的委員他也不肯答應說可以全面的來禁止廚餘養豬那當然所有的豬農現在都非常的恐慌因為這一年內有可能在這一年如果假設大爆發的話未來你也沒有辦法禁止了因為都沒有豬了你知道嗎所以這件事的嚴重性我想要知道說你次長了不了解謝謝委員其實這個大家都知道非洲豬瘟這次真的是真的是"},{"start":6615.535,"end":6633.468,"text":"天佑台灣就是在那個我們很幸運因為那個豬場三公里內沒有別的豬場假設是在比較密集的那一次感染是不得了的所以大家都知道不能再有一次絕對不能那你禁止廚餘養豬就是保護這些豬農保護整個產業鏈我先舉一個例子你要知道說這個豬場假設種過了"},{"start":6642.074,"end":6647.225,"text":"他六年內甚至十年內他都不可能在同一個地方復養那他這個豬場假設是貸款"},{"start":6649.673,"end":6655.177,"text":"你要他怎麼做他怎麼償還這個貸款難道農業部你願意幫他償還這個貸款嗎這個風險誰要付呢你們負得起這個責任嗎付不起嗎所以我接下來要問喔次長為了因應美國關稅漁業署推出的配套措施包括冷鏈補助產銷合作獎勵外銷獎勵等等那本席都非常的肯定說大家是共體時間但我想要問一個最核心的問題喔"},{"start":6680.533,"end":6705.581,"text":"這些補助到底有沒有真正幫助到最基層的漁民據你所知 你知道嗎其實我們對於這些冷鏈的設施其實是希望它到池邊去能夠協助我們漁民我就問你有沒有幫助到漁民價格不能讓我們下降價格不能讓我們下降因為我們是協助它去做凍存的價格不能讓我們下降是啊 這是你理想中但是問題來了"},{"start":6710.329,"end":6724.783,"text":"漁業署啟動這些措施之後產地的收購價到底有沒有有沒有變好還是變差布裡面有掌握第一線的消息嗎我就先問嘛去年的台灣貂養殖每公斤是多少錢去年多少錢"},{"start":6728.834,"end":6746.246,"text":"好你們不知道每公斤43至45塊那今年的產地價是多少錢你們也不知道沒關係30至31塊那我就在問啊你們知道產地的這個成本是多少嗎成本是多少"},{"start":6748.65,"end":6767.98,"text":"多少 你要 是啊那你看如果假設30 31塊他每賣1公斤就賠10塊你是漁民你受得了嗎而且是就像你講的 你也知道盤商會壓他吧盤商就是有壓他嘛 你補助盤商 盤商還是壓他們啊"},{"start":6769.909,"end":6783.949,"text":"那這個是不是你們的責任要去管制一下我們是要求說我給你冷凍設施 凍存設施是協助農民把那個拉進來凍存不要造成市場波動那價格不能給人家壓低壓低啊"},{"start":6785.211,"end":6789.473,"text":"多少漁民叫苦連天而且呢盤商已經拿了補助收購價照砍漁民被砍到刀刀見骨如果這是真的話那政府的補助不只沒有幫助到漁民還間接讓盤商有空間殺得更狠那這是你們的本意嗎因為其實照顧農民才是我們要做的事情"},{"start":6810.004,"end":6826.6,"text":"所以我在這裡呼籲次長 農業部必須訂出一套穩定市場的補助措施而且補助必須直接補助到漁民啊否則他們哀哀叫啊變成是這件事情 你們越補助他們越辛苦那這合理嗎 不合理吧"},{"start":6829.207,"end":6857.452,"text":"我們要先了解一下因為其實能夠直接對接我們的農民漁民才是而且我也想知道說我們這190億特別預算通過之後到底哪些是在支應這些漁業的補助有多少我們在包括是說在這個加工跟包裝運材還有團散的獎勵計畫那還有它的一個加工處理這樣子多少目前我們是大概規劃的有"},{"start":6861.695,"end":6878.555,"text":"好不知道都不知道都不知道可見你們有多不重視這件事情根本不知道漁民也不知道你們補助到哪裡去了這麼多的錢到底基層的漁民問說政府有看到我們嗎我們到底有拿到什麼所以我在這裡希望說"},{"start":6879.996,"end":6894.4,"text":"對於拿補助的這些盤商一定要訂定最低的收購價格否則這些漁民就會任人宰割那第二呢希望有一個機制能夠正視漁民的困境直接補助漁民那設備盤商"},{"start":6897.902,"end":6909.922,"text":"這個包括合作社每一個環節都很重要但是絕對不能夠影響最最根本的就是我們的漁民所以呢我再繼續再講你們這個冷鏈的補助辦法也非常好笑"},{"start":6911.058,"end":6938.021,"text":"我今年8月的時候曾經向部長曾經向部長說過吳國瑜鱸魚業者包括我們的這個可能台灣鯛等等大家關心的這個冷鏈設備補助當時部長就說只有限漁會但是最後在我要求之下呢他們把合作社也納入那這一項我很肯定那我想請問次長目前這一項冷鏈補助的受理期限到底到什麼時候呢"},{"start":6939.366,"end":6948.695,"text":"都沒有停啊 到年底都可以是啊 到2025年的12月31號到2025年的12月31號那你們是什麼時候發布可以開始申請補助的 8月對不對"},{"start":6956.272,"end":6984.719,"text":"你知道我要反映一個現實處境現在缺工缺料要從零開始到建制這個冷凍倉儲至少需要一年以上那目前的補助規定必須完工驗收才能申請那你覺得你到12月31號有可能建好可以申請嗎我想我們這個會繼續啦怎麼繼續你要講清楚啊明年還是可以來申請啊不是是明年是什麼時候你要講清楚你現在講清楚什麼叫做明年也可以來申請"},{"start":6986.339,"end":6999.363,"text":"今年已經有造成事實 已經有合約 有申請的其實今年沒有辦法完工 我們可以讓他明年再來補銷你的補助規定是要完工驗收才能申請所以完工就每年來申請啊你的規範就夠今年了 你知道嗎這我們現場來處理"},{"start":7008.365,"end":7021.71,"text":"你們要趕快啊 你們要明定出來 否則這些業者心裡想說你八位這麼酸薄 要怎麼十二位就去好了還可以行刑 這是看得到吃不到耶不會啦 一定會讓大家能夠用得到這筆錢好 媽 拜託了 請那個次長是不是能夠盡快的公告 盡快公告讓這一些真的想要做的人能夠安心不然大家不敢啦"},{"start":7032.214,"end":7055.048,"text":"大家怎麼敢 這一次申請你知道嗎 一次做下去是好幾百萬 可能上千萬的他明明知道他可能來不及 他怎麼敢做那不是明擺在那 大家都沒有辦法拿到這筆補助嗎好 這我們來做行政上面的調整 謝謝那另外呢 我想要問的就是有關於那個次長知道現在日本雄害很嚴重嗎"},{"start":7056.567,"end":7077.044,"text":"知道嗎 其實有傷害到人的這個 有一百多級 對他們觀光也有影響熊害那我們很幸運我們還沒有熊害但是我們的山區有另外一種危害就是猴害我不曉得你有沒有看過猴害有看過那個猴害的影片嗎你看一下可以播嗎"},{"start":7088.414,"end":7107.492,"text":"這些喉嗨嚴重影響了我們在山區的農民你看 他的火龍果被吃了他的柳丁被吃了然後他的柑橘 他的咖啡數個月的這些心血"},{"start":7108.513,"end":7135.034,"text":"猴子可能五分鐘十分鐘就一次把它都摧毀了我想請問次長針對猴害你們目前有什麼樣的對策呢其實在不同地方造成的這個入侵的形態不太一樣像這個果園其實它不見得是肚子餓它其實就是在那邊玩把它都毀損了Exactly 對啊所以其實骨坑那邊其實我們有給它一些不只骨坑 林內林內也非常嚴重"},{"start":7136.375,"end":7162.728,"text":"而且他們已經不只是在侵害農產品他們已經侵害到人民的家中了你知道嗎所以其實我們是跟當地那個里長村長去做聯絡請他們聯絡怎麼聯絡你要叫他們自己去處理怎麼處理委員好我們其實在過去這幾年都有補助谷坑鄉公所其實也包含雲林縣政府就是組成區候隊那去驅趕你補助他多少錢"},{"start":7164.548,"end":7172.831,"text":"呃 每一年應該都有上百萬吧上百萬 對啊 這個 這個我說加總起來啦加總起來有上百萬但是你覺得夠嗎呃 看有什麼樣的問題可見是沒有被處理啊這個要針對問題來對症下藥啦那看現在還有什麼樣的問題我們可以再來看跟雲林先生的聯繫處理萬來種像這個"},{"start":7187.795,"end":7202.789,"text":"處理外來種你們都有策略雖然台灣猕猴不是外來種但現在應該有25萬至30萬隻喔而且這個還在增加當中那對農作物的損害是多年沒有改善農民是真的非常的無奈我想"},{"start":7203.99,"end":7214.214,"text":"農業部應該更主動你要把它視為國家層級的農業風險來處理才行啊對但是全台灣每個地方的樣態不一樣而且台灣猕猴也不是保育類動物防治的工具應該是更多元你說怎樣我說就是您講的台灣猕猴不是保育類所以其實農民也可以進圍處理"},{"start":7227.398,"end":7231.643,"text":"敬委處理怎麼處理就是農民可以自行捕捉啊不自行捕捉對"},{"start":7235.212,"end":7257.93,"text":"這個也是方法之一那我是說現在有什麼問題我們可以來跟委員會後來瞭解看是怎麼樣我們可以再來提供協助好不好我希望你們可以提供積極的一個策略全方位的策略而不是只是很消極的覺得農民可以自己捕捉這件事情很你知道我們山區喔我們山區是很多都是老人家"},{"start":7258.69,"end":7271.074,"text":"你現在叫他自行去捕捉如果他不小心跌倒了 誰負責所以屈侯隊也是在這樣的情況之下是 所以我希望你們要更積極你們要自己想一個更積極的辦法不是說 啊沒你農民你自己去抓"},{"start":7275.415,"end":7295.066,"text":"有些地方的農民他們確實是也會自己做確實也有啦是 那可能是比較年輕力壯的我現在就在告訴你說我們的山區有很多都是老人家他做不到他如果做得到他就不會認他欺負啦所以我們再來看可以用什麼樣的方式市長我請你回答你要怎麼辦"},{"start":7297.15,"end":7311.481,"text":"我感覺不趕快說實在需要不同策略那我覺得其實我們因地制宜 我們來好 次長署長我都希望你們要認真一點面對這件問題不要再任這些猴子欺負我們雲林的農民好不好 謝謝好 謝謝要講"},{"start":7326.361,"end":7331.409,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊英委員邀請次長"},{"start":7338.288,"end":7358.657,"text":"委員好 市長您好針對於我們惡性傷害動物致死傷的這個事件屢見不宣那引起了這個社會大眾的公憤所以因此我們現行的動保法在實務上有存在的兩個根本的一個缺陷"},{"start":7359.517,"end":7388.077,"text":"第一個對於虐待致傷害的這個判定標準過於嚴苛導致有很多它是明顯的虐待動物的行為但是卻沒有辦法有效的來懲處那尤其是致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或者是重要器官功能喪失的這個判斷讓基層單位的動保單位它在執行的時候它是沒有辦法難以去定案"},{"start":7388.877,"end":7407.39,"text":"那第二個缺陷也就是情節重大致死的案件我們的條文是說必須要有複數的動物那死亡為前提這顯然是單一動物的重大虐殺的這個案件它沒有辦法依法"},{"start":7408.351,"end":7430.222,"text":"來做懲處那背離了整個我們要怎麼樣去維護動物權益的一個核心價值所以本席特別提出也就是在法律修正案裡頭那麼我們提出了第25條跟25條之一為了來解決現行在執行的困境以及強化法律阻礙力"},{"start":7431.303,"end":7457.915,"text":"跟提升了動物的權益保障來降低整個在虐待動物發生時那能夠真正的去落實在整個動物權益的一個維護那請教 請教次長本席的提案那您的看法是不是全力支持謝謝委員這樣確實可以達到動物保護的方向第一個是在判定上能夠更清楚因為其實虐待其實有多面向不見得到致死其實對懂不懂是只能傷害"},{"start":7458.815,"end":7476.104,"text":"所以在判定的标准要能够更明确让现场执行能够真的达到保护动物的效果所以谢谢委员提出来这我们一定支持第二个谢谢你复述动物证件我也赞成委员的想法其实这很严重要等到两家三家来处理就已经很严重了你还要一定要等到两次这个"},{"start":7477.124,"end":7481.627,"text":"這個立法實在是莫名其妙的太離譜了我們是要以他的行動行為來判定而不是以他的數字嘛所以設了一個複數本身覺得沒有辦法接受的所以我們同意這樣修改的方向同意修法第25條跟25條之一一個傷害也是傷害對"},{"start":7497.318,"end":7525.788,"text":"就这一句话就这一句话伤害就是伤害而不是因为要有两只以上才算伤害这个是普世价值是没有办法接受的好谢谢针对本席所提案25条之以及25条之一那么行政部门全力来支持到时候我们在实时讨论条文的时候那我们达成了这个共识接下来本席要请教最近因为11月份的报道有说新竹苗栗等这一些"},{"start":7526.408,"end":7528.789,"text":"那這個越南移工集體化 組織化非法來宰殺 並販賣狗肉還有保育動物類的肉品 重大的犯罪從家犬多多被肢體解體的冷凍販賣一直到查獲了43公斤違法肉品"},{"start":7548.013,"end":7552.316,"text":"甚至還有自製獵槍來獵殺保育類的死虎哇 這個真的是離譜至極啊所以據查呢這個自製的獵槍的外籍嫌犯行為更囂張他不只將這個大量的犯罪的證據"},{"start":7567.828,"end":7574.951,"text":"跟槍支照片發布在臉書網路上面甚至在警察上門的時候他還拿這個獵槍來瞄準了恐嚇這個警察這一類的行為它不只是超過單純的虐殺個案"},{"start":7584.255,"end":7599.883,"text":"它還涉及到違法槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例組織犯罪非法落品的供應鏈以及公共衛生安全的一個風險那面對這樣子的一個惡性重大那集體"},{"start":7601.104,"end":7613.848,"text":"跨區運作的殺戮行為我們的動保法它的赫子作用好像是形同虛設啊那所以本席給你一個數字2014年到2021年的獵殺案件當中它高達了96%的案件它的刑期不到6個月然後一顆罰金你等於是讓非法者"},{"start":7626.28,"end":7648.136,"text":"非法者當成是他犯罪得利的一個溫床所以我們的法律的過度的寬鬆那這些會讓人家有一個機會是不是來台灣掏金本行不希望台灣是如此的一個面向在呈現所以這些的犯罪集團針對"},{"start":7649.637,"end":7676.557,"text":"動物他沒有辦法自我保護的能力他來下手那不僅侵害了我們國民的一個財產權跟這個情感那更挑戰了我們整個國土安全以及動保的一個底線所以本席認為您農業部作為動保最高的主管機關單位你絕對不能讓這樣子的單純的動物案件讓他們去達成可以去做整個結合"},{"start":7677.694,"end":7706.969,"text":"那這個要該怎麼辦所以本席具體建議你必須針對於外籍勞工的管理社會治安動物防疫以及野生動物保育的重大本席號稱這是一個國安議題所以請教次長針對剛剛本席所說的這一些面向不管是集體來宰殺犬貓保育類動物的挑釁那這一項你要如何的"},{"start":7707.649,"end":7735.274,"text":"去與警政署 移民署 跨部會的來及時通報及時查緝來徹底的瓦解這些非法的一個弱品供應鏈 請做說明謝謝委員支持這個要更強力有效來做動物保護所以第一個 我們這次修法把刑責提高六個月以上 不能夠一顆罰金這是非常嚴重 這是第一點第二點 在源頭的部分 當然除了去查緝之外"},{"start":7735.834,"end":7756.346,"text":"我們現在進來的移工其實都有做一些行前的教育訓練就是告訴他們說比方說不能攜帶這個動植物產品不能怎樣我們會把動物保護這個也放在裡面對於移民的這一塊要跟他們講說進來要守法這件事情要講那第三個在司法的部分我想我們有跟司法檢調人員其實有一個聯繫平台我們也會在那個平台上面"},{"start":7757.066,"end":7774.179,"text":"希望把這件事情動物保護這件事情違反動物保護這件事情是非常重要的事情也請法官檢察官就在量刑的部分多餘考量要能夠確實達到所以換句話說就在是整個加重刑責這個部分呢必須要徹底的從源頭從棄養從提升整個收容處"},{"start":7779.483,"end":7802.028,"text":"以及查緝人員的一個權益跟安全來做整面性的一個真正的動保的一個推動跟落實那最後一個議題本席給你也就是我們農業部從106年推動的智慧農業那你結合了整個經濟部合作農工的一個研發 目的叫打造"},{"start":7802.768,"end":7822.21,"text":"平價優質易維修的這個國產智慧型的農業設備但是我們因應到整個氣候的變遷跟勞動力的一個短缺所以在近10年來我們看到這個部分政府推動一個政策它的落實只有25%"},{"start":7824.692,"end":7841.893,"text":"為什麼為什麼有政策落實不了所以本席要請教也就是智慧農業設備的一個普及那你目前只有推動到25%這樣低迷的現象你滿意嗎"},{"start":7843.951,"end":7871.294,"text":"可以再來加強啦因為其實所有的科研所有的成果所有智慧化的運用要能夠農民負擔得起要怎麼負擔得起就是說其實我們現場因為其實台灣農地不大哇 次長你這樣子說那這個很離譜耶你說要農民負擔得起剛剛答覆其他委員說你抓猴子你農民你那個民眾也可以自己抓你全部都推給不是政府的責任耶這樣說不認得現在本集具體建議"},{"start":7872.655,"end":7885.726,"text":"你針對這個只有達成25%也就設備的這個部分那你必須要去精進你的方案怎麼樣能夠落實請你把書面資料給本席好我們謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那我們繼續謝一鳳委員"},{"start":7907.059,"end":7934.547,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請杜次長好我們再請杜次委員好次長我想請教一下就是未來我們2027年開始全面禁用廚餘那所以目前你們有沒有預估一下全國我們每日的去化量是多少那"},{"start":7936.618,"end":7965.35,"text":"那個他要準備資料是不是那未來就是說這些這些廚餘如果不能用蒸煮養足的方式的時候那怎麼樣子處理這些廚餘就我所知道在環境部裡面其實對於廚餘的企劃現在當然很多都是用去焚化爐處理但是其實也不是只有這個方式包括是做堆肥包括是做生殖能也包括做黑水盲的處理其實它有多元的處理方式在做"},{"start":7967.33,"end":7991.283,"text":"對 可是有沒有辦法啊2027年之前有沒有辦法這些量能都出來能夠處理全國的這個廚餘量啊是不是那我們現在沒有禁用的原因是在於你們認為沒有辦法消化這些廚餘量嘛那未來有沒有辦法在2027年之前有沒有辦法"},{"start":7991.903,"end":8013.346,"text":"在環境部其實他有加大處理的這個量能包括有一些高效處理的也包括一些加大做生殖能的一些處理特別現在是每天有2115所以這個東西是環境部要負責他們主責是不是環境部好那所以未來如果這個就是說不能禁用廚餘了那"},{"start":8013.906,"end":8030.554,"text":"所有的相關的廚餘處理的費用是在農業部編還是在環境部沒有 因為廚餘還是那怎麼樣子協助地方廚餘還是回歸到廚餘的處理那這個我們在前天跟22縣市其實有"},{"start":8031.654,"end":8057.334,"text":"中央災害面中心有跟22縣市有開會過那22縣市目前就廚餘處理的方向大概只有桃園稍稍有困難因為桃園目前廚餘養豬的戶數比較多所以在桃園又特別是都會區所以它的廚餘處理相對困難其他21縣市目前都還OK那環境部那邊也會協助來做一些區化的輔導跟做一些設備的補助"},{"start":8058.803,"end":8074.128,"text":"那除了就是說我相信在生殖能方面就是說你們過去也有規劃就是廚餘的生殖能就是發電的這個部分可是目前好像全國的這個廚餘的發電廠也不多對不對"},{"start":8077.545,"end":8093.705,"text":"應該是在它的設備建置的位置其實很多都是跟他們的焚化廠建在一起因為本來那邊就在處理一些回收的東西因為台中的生殖能廠它是有生除於目前好像只有兩座"},{"start":8094.306,"end":8122.523,"text":"那就是生殖能就是廚餘用來生殖能發電的這個部分那台中的只有收生廚餘那桃園的只有收熟廚餘那這樣子的情況下如果我們希望說可以把廚餘變做可以發電的就是另外一個生殖能的電量也是一個綠能的來源的時候那這樣子的情況好像目前量能也不足"},{"start":8123.183,"end":8149.889,"text":"基本上其實環境部是會支持把廚餘做再利用不管是去做生殖能去做堆肥去做黑水那你說現在到底環境部的進行的速度是怎麼樣這個可能要問環境部對你們要你們發布禁用廚餘的這個命令結果環境部都沒有相關的因應的方式那未來怎麼樣子處理這些廚餘"},{"start":8151.857,"end":8176.206,"text":"我們全國要怎麼樣處理這些廚餘這個環境部應該是有規劃一些加強的一些協助方案在做那其實金融廚餘這件事情在農業部的立場其實是為了讓非洲豬瘟不再發生我想在疾病控制這塊我知道那這也是農民這也是一些農民他們希望的方向嘛是不是那但是你"},{"start":8177.546,"end":8204.175,"text":"就是說你禁用廚餘你需要能夠處理這些廚餘那如果環境部都沒有以後去督促環境部所進行的程度不然這些東西最後還是會回到我們的養豬戶或者是其他的相關的其實環境部更擔心的是廚餘如果沒有處理好是造成一個社會的髒亂跟其他的亂丟棄對 我是說也有可能再回到我們這個部分所以環境部其實對這塊其實也很重視希望能夠加大各縣市對於"},{"start":8204.735,"end":8232.358,"text":"但是環境部並沒有一個相關的積極的規劃啊我們看不到啊 是不是好 這個我們就在明天中央災害應變中心我們就轉達給環境部應該要加大來這塊處理要不然對社會的處理問題應該也是重要的措施對啊 是不是好 謝謝委員那如果能夠用生殖能或者是其他的液化或固化的這樣子一個飼料也是一個方向對 也是一個方向嘛是不是朝著那如果固化的"},{"start":8233.178,"end":8253.184,"text":"飼料也是環境部嗎還是你們目前國內沒有這個技術所以其實如果要做的話必須還是要有環境部前端對於處理 日本是用液化液化的飼料它也有固體化 做成顆粒飼料液化是不是那這個部分是誰來處理 但是它必須經過飼料化它必須要做調理成它的成分它的"},{"start":8253.424,"end":8277.531,"text":"可能要發酵吧是不是還是重點是配方要能夠做精準掌握那來源其實也不是一般的廚餘它其實還是有分特定的才能進來做這個eco feed那所以以後廚餘的分類又更困難了其實會更複雜所以這塊我們也會跟環境部再來做聯繫那你們有沒有做相關的討論因為如果你要2027現在是對啊現在都年底了是不是只剩下一年的"},{"start":8277.911,"end":8278.592,"text":"接下來我們請蔡議員請做詢談"},{"start":8310.02,"end":8317.764,"text":"謝謝召委 我們是不是有請農業部我們杜次長我們請杜次長和動保司司長司長請委員好次長想透過今天的質詢 還是繼續來聊這個流浪狗的問題"},{"start":8330.171,"end":8357.267,"text":"那流浪狗在我的選區因為布袋東石一族這個大概就是餘溫養殖密集的所以你可以看到說我們在這裡出現了流浪狗在攻擊黑面皮鹿的一個狀況來我放一個影片給你們看一下短短的那這個是非常很重要的這個候鳥黑面皮鹿小黑狗在樹地上悠閒散步偶爾來個加快腳步嚇得一旁白鹿絲跟黑面皮鹿紛紛逃離"},{"start":8361.264,"end":8364.668,"text":"好 那你看這個流浪狗跟黑麵皮路的衝突然後第二個你來看這個下一個影片"},{"start":8385.444,"end":8385.544,"text":"好好"},{"start":8405.97,"end":8428.544,"text":"那所以我們知道這流浪狗的問題大概已經變成在這個沿海養殖密集的地方就是像我們這邊還有濕地那濕地當然就會有所謂候鳥的問題那很多餘溫的魚呀這狗都會去捕獵他們是很厲害我曾經有一個影片是狗一群狗"},{"start":8429.324,"end":8443.791,"text":"旁邊在那邊在旁邊那邊做一些驚嚇然後讓養殖的魚群集中然後另外一隻比較厲害的就會去把魚丟起來所以對於這一些養殖戶當然就有影響"},{"start":8444.491,"end":8469.304,"text":"然後第二個就是說你看這就說最近的一個新聞喔狗衝到了流浪狗衝到了這個漁市場裡面然後翻箱倒櫃然後衝到了起鵝阿丟那你知道養鵝的最怕什麼驚嚇因為鵝會發生踩踏而且鵝很怕牠的腳因為牠的身體比較重牠的腳比較小所以牠也很怕牠如果高高的去到驚嚇牠"},{"start":8471.426,"end":8483.16,"text":"其他的腳一旦斷掉了那隻鵝就死掉了甚至還有流浪狗已經兇到了跑到了豬場裡面一隻咬死了然後你看有一個咬死了11頭豬"},{"start":8485.253,"end":8504.979,"text":"五隻流浪狗衝到豬場裡面咬死十一頭豬遇到比牠大隻的豬牠也不怕所以就可以知道整個流浪狗的問題是嚴重的那這個問題的嚴重又來自於說地方還是會有所謂會去餵食流浪狗"},{"start":8506.235,"end":8531.489,"text":"去餵食遊覽狗所以我還是要跟次長反映一下說這個遊覽狗雖然說基於動保法的一個規定那我們現在盡量是零撲殺就是零安二死的一個狀況那但是呢遊覽狗造成了很多人的一個財產上的損失甚至他去追老人的時候造成老人騎摩托車走去跌倒"},{"start":8532.469,"end":8546.054,"text":"造成他的甚至生命都產生問題的狀況之下我們還是要正視這個問題啊所以我們農業部能不能針對至少就餵食流浪狗這件事情做出相對應的一個處置呢"},{"start":8547.516,"end":8573.925,"text":"謝謝委員提這個問題而且這個標題真的不是只有在動物保護也不是只有在群這個族群的控制而是在有沒有可能疾病散播的這個危險我想這看到兩個問題第一個如果遊蕩犬去追逐人這個有我們人民的國人安全的問題嘛那第二個其實像其實每年像這個季節候鳥季節來的時候其實也是我們禽流感的高峰期所以一天遭遇那個候鳥棲息地種種的牠又去我們的街頭也是很危險的事情"},{"start":8575.165,"end":8598.497,"text":"市長我跟你說齁 像他為什麼會跑到那個地上裡面齁我跟你說 他挖洞那個豬場已經齁 已經封閉起來了他自己挖洞裡面 從地 地他就是那個土質鬆軟掉然後就挖洞進去 然後就這樣潛進去 五隻跑進去那我做一個比較不好的假設你在餵食的過程中讓狗 縱使牠不會因為"},{"start":8599.857,"end":8618.243,"text":"如果餵食的食物帶有非洲豬瘟如果非洲豬瘟他不會他雖然不會讓狗得病可是他身體會沾染細菌那他如果衝到了這個豬場裡面他等於就一個風險現在連豬農都知道他要進入豬場他必須要做好一些防塵的一些要"},{"start":8620.444,"end":8640.164,"text":"保持要乾淨的概念但是狗是直接衝進去的完全不剩完全的概念跑來跑去變成機械性的傳播所以這個也有可能會進一步流浪狗又變成了說我們是在做對於防止這一些像類似非洲之瘟這樣的菌的一個感染它可能又變成一個擴散鏈"},{"start":8640.985,"end":8660.274,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個問題我們真的正式的所以我們就想我們是建議說其實不是我們自己吃的動物不要去吃啦不管是狗啊 鳥啊 還是說外面的野生動物不是自己養的動物你就不要去餵牠那你要餵牠就帶回家去好好照顧當然 你就負起施主的責任嘛施主的責任 你要牠吃 你要聽牠就帶回去養是啊 你今天要聽牠你就好好聽 別讓牠丟"},{"start":8662.455,"end":8671.211,"text":"不管是野生動物或是不是你自己的動物就不要去餵牠不要去餵牠好那第二個我還是因為剛剛也有很多委員去講到的這個鎖定的狗的問題"},{"start":8672.489,"end":8699.192,"text":"事實上你們也說你們可能會有其他的一些措施事實上什麼措施都很難因為猴子畢竟是聰明的啦他是領長類所以他也有他會有一些經驗的傳承所以猴子大概以兩塊的電維網他們後來就會都會懂了他們就會知道說少許東西要去要去要去拼了所以教他就聰明"},{"start":8701.033,"end":8718.107,"text":"那我就覺得 既然狗已經 猴子也不是保育類動物了事實上適度的啦 適度的開放適度的啦 讓獵人獵人去執行任務啦"},{"start":8718.993,"end":8736.566,"text":"想辦法在密集區移屬啦你如果沒有移屬可能就一直在那裡等未來活植的問題你看日本因為黑熊進入到了我們的生活區域所以日本最近撲殺了7000隻黑熊然後他們現在發展出黑熊美食"},{"start":8737.687,"end":8757.228,"text":"有一些熊類的一些食物當然熊是在人的觀念裡面是食用猴子大概不會有人去食用但是畢竟這件事它已經侵害到了人類的一個生活空間那既然進入人類的生活空間我覺得適度的就讓獵人執行任務這件事真的是你們要去"},{"start":8758.509,"end":8774.865,"text":"我覺得政府一個政府適度拿出一些決心跟魄力來老百姓會給予掌聲的雖然也許說我們會面對一些團體他們會有一些另外活道的考量但是呢"},{"start":8777.427,"end":8804.201,"text":"我們還是希望好好保護這些猴子但是他一旦進入人類的一個生活範圍裡面我們有時候還是要適度的來採取這樣的措施讓獵人來執行任務才是真正有辦法解決的不然他為什麼叫獵人他既然叫獵人就當然是他來執行啊我們來評估用這個方式看能不能處理一些減少對人的困擾啦好啦好謝謝謝謝次長好非常感謝"},{"start":8809.642,"end":8835.774,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢談謝謝好 謝謝主席首先有請杜次長我們請杜次委員好杜次長好今天是動保法的修法"},{"start":8837.852,"end":8850.718,"text":"就是要大家好好的善待照顧我們的動物包括流浪狗這一邊就是要給它安定穩定的一個地方在那我"},{"start":8852.314,"end":8870.252,"text":"現在的動保法修正 我也確實地講人不如狗所以動保法的修正比照顧老人修得還要好所以我們政策也要特別注意本來有一個影片我要放出來的但是說不能轉那個影片 所以沒有出來"},{"start":8871.328,"end":8892.953,"text":"但是我今天容忍我們要好好照顧動物我們要保護動物我們要善待動物我先拜託你我們苗栗縣這個凍保研區我們加我跟娘加起來有500幾家空間已經不夠用了"},{"start":8893.874,"end":8917.023,"text":"我從112年、113年到114年每年跟農業部爭取一千兩百萬你們的部長都跟我答應沒有問題但是到現在114年連體要到了12月都不見動靜只問樓梯上沒有問題我會全力的幫忙你 要不然都沒辦法"},{"start":8919.296,"end":8943.023,"text":"這裡面我要再談到我們預算的問題像兩年物流我們就全力的爭取本來在行政院那一邊沒有核定下來現在已經核定下來我說你當副市長叫做那個江市長你也跟他打拚了你這個預算沒過你沒有責任義務去跟中央去溝通協調嘛"},{"start":8945.726,"end":8965.744,"text":"不笑不能解決問題啊我是要解決問題的人我不是說笑笑這樣過的你現在到底要怎麼解決忍耐了一年再一年所以最不愛護動物的不保護動物的是你江市長你不要變態微笑回答我這是很嚴重的指控啊你要怎麼解決這個問題你告訴我"},{"start":8967.938,"end":8977.091,"text":"老闆委員 為了這個我們比國管局還要急當然這個目前都到院裡面...你們總是有在急最重要是沒有把你扶住你就在那裡好像沒有要緊編帶微笑這樣怎麼做好不好"},{"start":8982.682,"end":9005.656,"text":"我現在要答案啦明年有沒有希望還是仍然一樣還是戴著微笑這樣就通過了我告訴你 我沒有那麼簡單給你過關因為醫生有變 但是現在要單價為合定啦這部份是有在處理的你現在合定就已經三個行政院了你不去跟他說合定了我們要好好保護動物 愛護動物嘛是"},{"start":9008.362,"end":9032.752,"text":"好不好 你去跟鄉長他們說你們這個法修的都是要給年輕選票用的啊好老人都不照顧啊有時候講這個法叫我不要講我是把我心底話講出來人的真的不如狗 這第一點第二點 剛剛蔡議員所講的 活子很聰明很聰明的話 你那個電網再加高"},{"start":9034.008,"end":9051.512,"text":"我跟你們協調了好幾次 你說何止會從四邊這樣跳進去裡面我現在 市長你來啦你把隔離帶弄的20公尺 旁邊有高的樹木 把樹枝全部剪掉啦"},{"start":9052.844,"end":9067.775,"text":"你蓋那錢 兒公很聰明 確確實實你大概離個20公尺 他跳不過來就跳到水果園裏面不然你們每天在那裏 也不曉得如何解決這種小事沒辦法 要安裝來見證 要到節目去衝嚇好不好 你看法怎麼樣"},{"start":9077.817,"end":9100.233,"text":"報告委員 確實每個地方環境真的不一樣像您講的 有些果園就跟樹林緊貼著對嘛 你把那邊隔離啦我都親自去看過了 好好研討一下所以到底是樹林該退 還是果園該退這個我們要依先地來看不是果園在退 是要退啦 哪裡果園在退你要有多少錢可以賠因為有些果園其實是違規的這樣你不知道做過什麼啦"},{"start":9102.955,"end":9128.545,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我們會因地制宜包含剛剛講的有些入侵的我們也會協助來適度移除但是你移除那個猴子它是領域性你把這個地方的移除其他的猴子會進來所以這個變成是一個我開始處理這個以前苗栗都沒有從南部的猴子一直跑到我們苗栗來了以前我沒有猴子這樣的問題"},{"start":9129.705,"end":9143.841,"text":"所以我一定要想一個辦法我們會一起來還有那野豬啊到果園去吃一死死的現在把牠抓了動物保護協會就出來抗議我剛剛說動物保護協會真的這麼愛這些動物給牠們帶回去養"},{"start":9151.175,"end":9178.964,"text":"我們獵人狩獵應該做的時候要做到底是人為本還是動物為本今天是動物保護動物保護修法的時候有時候講得比較嚴厲不然你就給他好好保護人類生成的東西他的農作物我希望如果這樣子在抗議的話不一定要接受這人要有膽量不要去討好一些所有的事情"},{"start":9180.208,"end":9204.582,"text":"市長 你先來 你會看法你檢疫所 你應該很內行動物的習慣我同意委員的意見啦就是說其實如果入侵到我們的果園要想辦法因為農業部也是要保護我們的農民的工作啦真的 問題你們怕怎麼做動保協會或是動物保護協會真的要保護農民保護人的生存基本條件這個最重要謝謝委員 謝謝好 市長您留著 幫我放這"},{"start":9210.287,"end":9221.234,"text":"我們的魚缸 東北季風大潮的影響那個堪孤的次數 現在沒有出來抓魚今天魚特別好 抓了很多剛才東北季風過來 你來看 這才做的"},{"start":9227.253,"end":9251.826,"text":"那我去拜託你們 你們說這個不是你們管轄水利市我去問水利市 水利市說連中到了沒有錢我不知道這政府說他沒錢 連中還沒交代 還有一國威說沒錢我這邊就可以看到推脫啦什麼叫以人為本 什麼要尊重民眾反映意見我今天博覽大陸 我拜託苗栗縣長"},{"start":9253.206,"end":9276.187,"text":"我說啊 這個經費沒有多少 100萬左右 你用緊急搶修林市長 土地給我們用 你們要辦嗎大家都在推拉 我要用緊急搶修 土地是你們的你不要亂說給我發 你讓我來做 現在你走那裡的季節給移民有土地的機會地 能去賺錢的機會地 這樣好不好"},{"start":9278.123,"end":9304.531,"text":"如果是搶修經過我們的土地 我們會同意啊愛中愛西的 覺得全部都困難了沒有 如果搶修是經過我們土地 我們絕對會同意你這個去 我一定跟你們拜託啊你們說這沒你們的事啊叫水利署來做 水利署說他要開明年就開口合約我等你們 我就要變傢伙因為可能是水利署的海提啊海提是水利署做的沒有啦 我今天就拜託 我把你們留下"},{"start":9305.765,"end":9331.97,"text":"你們這個不是還用效率很快 小事情就辦不好我今天 我要拜託 你的土地給我們用我請苗栗縣政府馬上搶修沒有問題好不好 不能這樣拖地啊 一塊錢地啊那個預算幾千億 要幾十萬這樣有困難啊這開始發生的情形啊好不好 大家不能去求人啊 做官我不知道你們做多大張"},{"start":9333.905,"end":9361.455,"text":"真的有點官僚 我真的看起來我以為市長你年輕有為 這種事情你應該當機立斷應該趕快要做 要去搶修還是你 新竹林物資不敢跟你報告這樣去報 說預算沒有啊 連底啊這麼費用 效率那麼好我也沒有問題 好不好什麼沒有問題 土地沒有問題還是土地加徑會沒有問題"},{"start":9363.459,"end":9376.436,"text":"經費就要看那個海底就要看 你要談到經費你嘴巴又閉起來就要看什麼我沒辦法核銷啊對啊我沒辦法核銷啊 對那你管的土地保安營地在你那個移民的出入口你也消費就有錢土地就對沒問題"},{"start":9378.378,"end":9405.318,"text":"阿 總會有問題 幾十萬這樣有問題 廠商這樣有問題如果是屬於我們管轄範圍 絕對也沒有問題有一半在你們那邊 體育網不在你們那邊但是體育網的土地在你們那邊對 那如果是我們這邊的我們可以來寫 兩個十號我自己推來推去 這樣做不來的事啊那只有多少 你一個體育網的公尺我們再跟委員了解好不好 其他的是你們的土地我再跟委員了解細節好不好"},{"start":9406.345,"end":9424.25,"text":"要有效率一點什麼進步的政府 謝謝好 謝謝也請會後跟委員來探討清楚因為可能有一些斷點的地方 謝謝接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":9432.371,"end":9459.181,"text":"來 謝主席是不是有請農業部杜次長我們再請杜次長委員好 次長你好上個月18號到東京跟農林水產省相關的官員做了大概三個半小時的討論就是說剩食殘渣相關的處理經驗日本做得很好有兩個方向就是家戶要減量"},{"start":9460.714,"end":9480.082,"text":"第二个就是事业的部分事业端包括食品工厂 餐饮团散这些他们的这个分类来源非常明确由这个专业的处理业者统一回收处理变成ecofit所以从加货端从事业端分别去处理我们去年50万吨的"},{"start":9480.842,"end":9497.62,"text":"的加護廚餘大概4成是經過這個養豬所以未來如果用廚餘禁止養豬的時候我們這個加護廚餘的產生一定要減量要除以減量這個在日本幾乎家家戶戶都有這個加護廚餘乾燥機"},{"start":9500.583,"end":9517.455,"text":"過去某些縣市有一些縣市也有做一些補助所以我應該要推廣你這個食物不要浪費另外就是廚餘的處理要用比較現代化的體系要納入所謂的防疫的體系來"},{"start":9519.076,"end":9535.855,"text":"如果你們跟這個環境部來推動就是說家戶除於乾燥機除以你乾燥之後就變成一般的廢棄物你就可以用粉化的方式來處理所以如果每一戶家家戶戶都有家戶除於乾燥機"},{"start":9537.642,"end":9555.828,"text":"那你要透過補助政府的推廣或者政策上的支持就像我們節能補助一樣冷氣這些節能設備補助一樣所以我建議說農業部跟環境部可以去研究針對家戶廚餘乾燥機提出一個補助的計畫讓家戶的廚餘乾燥機深入每一個家庭"},{"start":9562.304,"end":9582.822,"text":"所以从加户端来看这个有效减少这个加户处理的产生这个次长您的看法好谢谢委员带回来第一线在日本看到就有关于怎么去做e-coffee的这个回来有他有跟你报告吗他其实也是学习很多谢谢委员这个这次让我们同学也一起去"},{"start":9583.462,"end":9607.117,"text":"那除了這個之外其實剛剛委員提到就是家戶廚餘確實是很重要你要能夠在源頭減少的話後端在處理包括我們清潔隊也好我們的那個環保人員也好其實相對壓力都會少很多所以不管是在把它乾燥化或者是鐵位就是怎麼把它處理掉我想這個應該都可以讓環境部有很好的一個參考的一個方向我想我記得大家可能知道等於中央在那邊有跨部會啊"},{"start":9608.078,"end":9624.645,"text":"就像經濟部他推動節能節能這個補助節能電器嘛 類似那樣子我們在環境部說這是一個方向希望家家戶戶自己如果能夠減少的話後端的區劃相對壓力就會少日本的經驗做得很好所以你看我們這個邊境的管制日本沒有邊境管制"},{"start":9625.868,"end":9645.16,"text":"好像我們現在這個要入境的時候我們不是都還有安檢你這個索尼西你還在安檢一次日本沒有嘛對不對因為他們的事業端啊事業端的他們用這個EcoFit跟那個工型大學的川島教授也線上做一些討論我們那天花了三個半小時"},{"start":9646.678,"end":9656.9,"text":"很深入的針對他們目前的包括法律面這個政策面 執行面分成家戶端跟這個事業端來處理所以日本的經驗值得我們學習"},{"start":9659.631,"end":9681.785,"text":"所以未來EcoFit你們有沒有什麼具體的想法這也是一個方向但是前端並不是把現在所有的廚餘都可以拿去做飼料因為前端還是要有一些分類有些確實可以進到像剩食 廢食 過期食品這些特定的東西才能去做飼料化這是第一個第二個是目前其實國內並沒有這樣子的設備所以我們就農業部來講"},{"start":9684.907,"end":9710.885,"text":"如果要把這些廚餘再轉換成這個飼料完整配方清除的這些可以再用的飼料這個我想我們會來試試你去跟日本做一些交流學習我們駐日有農業組有有有農業組第一線去學習他們他們已經推廣二十幾年了我們有兩個董事在那裡我知道我知道 我很熟所以我還專程跑去東京談了三個多小時事前準備功課"},{"start":9713.143,"end":9739.666,"text":"所以这部分也帮助一个重要的政策来推动谢谢委员提醒谢谢不是提醒这本来就你们不是我提醒之后你们才去做你们本来就应该去赶快去执行拟定一个计划从加货端怎么去减量从这个4月端怎么去变成ecofit这日本都已经很完整的体系这个我觉得我们没有办法创新没有办法有独特的这个做法那我们去学习其他国家这个成功的经验嘛"},{"start":9741.532,"end":9758.604,"text":"我希望這個盡快半年之內提出一個完整的一個計畫從加護端加護端的部分我們會轉給環境部因為家庭補助這塊會在中央災害應變中心裡面處理非洲中央的中央災害應變中心我也跟左院長建議你們要開一個會議協調因為這個處於"},{"start":9765.902,"end":9787.552,"text":"不見得是要編列預算在你們這個農業部 也可能要環境部一起合作但是一定要有一個完整的計畫出來好 謝謝委員另外這個所謂流浪 流浪犬的這個部分 荷蘭荷蘭已經這個基本上已經做到了荷蘭經驗市長您瞭解嗎"},{"start":9793.198,"end":9816.496,"text":"报告委员那个先进国家的经验大概都是在所谓的源头上去做一些管理然后加上我们没有办法做到就是源头管理失灵没有彻底那别的其他国家荷兰成功为什么因为就在源头管理做得好所以你了解问题但是你要提出解决问题的做法你要怎么样做好源头管理这个市长"},{"start":9818.655,"end":9839.509,"text":"市長是源頭管理真的很重要因為要從那邊減少的時候才會有可能把這個遊蕩犬的數量控制下來你看2019開始就有遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫執行了6年了2019開始已經執行了6年了但是還是有民眾支持"},{"start":9841.604,"end":9866.58,"text":"所以你比較這個非都會區你會看到都會區大概不太可能太多的流浪犬非都會區你要去城跑你要去這個見走散步你都要提心吊膽有些區域有些熱區所以我建議說這個部分園童管理你要提出更有效的方法那個可能是不是市長說明一下是"},{"start":9868.018,"end":9891.426,"text":"那个跟委员报告源头管理大概有三个部分第一个就是那个宠物登记的部分第二个是那个繁殖的商业的那个管理第三个一个部分就是要求事主责任那这部分已经配套相关的一个刑责跟执法的量能去强化这一块事主的责任当然是很重要你必须要强化事主的责任嘛所以源头管理能够做得好就是要强化事主的责任嘛"},{"start":9891.946,"end":9912.257,"text":"所以你了解問題在提出更精進的做法另外就是說未來財政收支發放法修法之後啊從明年度開始這個動保相關的計劃經費會全部一撥地方嗎那個報告委員目前的一個處理是這樣的一個方式全部一撥個地方那地方如果財源不足呢那你這個相關的經費就沒有啦就少一半啊"},{"start":9922.07,"end":9950.421,"text":"這個有 有沒有什麼解決方法這一個部分 那一個報告部裡面跟部長都非常重視問題也在看 跟主計談看有沒有什麼樣的一個方式去做一個處理你那個動保業務啊具有全國一致性的特性那你現在變成地方自己去執行這個第一個地方的政府的這個財政狀況這個各縣是不一樣它執行能量 效率 效果也會不同"},{"start":9951.939,"end":9976.69,"text":"而且長期性的政策推動也會受到影響所以這怎麼辦呢 隊長你不能沉默以對啊我們再看一看因為其實才化法之後老實講中央的預算狀況確實是有些減少我們盡量來想辦法對需要協助的因為臨時提案比較有拘束力因為臨時提案就是"},{"start":9978.571,"end":9997.684,"text":"希望你們一個月之內就提出具體做法不是你們回去想想看而已啊我可以在永庭臨時提案或者在約會再提案叫你們一個月提出一個詳細的計畫這樣你們才有壓力你們壓力才有動力啊你跟我說你要回去想想看那回去想想看是你要想多久我也沒辦法約束你對不對"},{"start":9999.531,"end":10023.609,"text":"很多事情這個短短時間沒辦法說明很清楚但是我作為最後的結論就是說這個我剛剛說的廚藝的部分一定要跟環境部立即有一個完整的計畫另外你針對這個財務好 修好之後你這個動保相關經費你要移破的地方這個困境如何解決裡面要有完整的一個solution好 謝謝好 非常感謝"},{"start":10027.395,"end":10038.647,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢答 謝謝謝謝主席 請杜長賜我們請杜賜"},{"start":10046.001,"end":10066.958,"text":"常事很有活力还有跑步的辛苦了一个早上常事我们的动保法修法其实我们已经在112年的时候就已经农业部就已经送到行政院行政院到现在都还没有排审他的意见大概就是说很多的意见分歧非常的混乱但是本席在这边提到"},{"start":10067.679,"end":10095.669,"text":"因為我們動保法的修法我們在委員會拍了多少次的質詢就是等我們願版的版本進來那現在如果意見很分歧的話我們可不可以去盤點一下分階段分項目的來處理如果就像是高虐待動物的罰款或者是提升動物的保護的檢查員執法的量能這部分有共識的部分我們先提出來來做修法可不可以"},{"start":10096.409,"end":10110.259,"text":"謝謝委員我們覺得也是應該讓有共識的先提出來不要整版都不提出來嘛謝謝可不可以這樣做所以那年底可以提出來嗎已經很多有共識了有共識的我們會先來做年底可以提出來嗎應該可以現在行政院的版本應該只願會而已"},{"start":10113.001,"end":10120.426,"text":"一直在那边112年就放到现在了非常缓慢政务会议审过只剩下院会所以我们会来再催一下所以年底可以出来吗我们今天来催"},{"start":10142.48,"end":10166.377,"text":"如果說要全面禁止餵養的話可能會有困難有些志工要經過餵食的時候來捕抓這些流浪的動物所以我們可不可以針對人跟動物有衝突的熱區盤點這個熱區用這個熱區的地方我們來禁止餵養來先行公佈可不可以"},{"start":10167.217,"end":10189.594,"text":"我們現在做法是這樣子其實當然對於如果跟人有衝突的侵犯人的 去追狗的很多 有些被咬傷的被追又跌倒的我們就列作優先去把它捕捉這些遊蕩犬控制這是第一點對於野生動物像自然公園 保護區我知道你們自然保護區的全面禁止餵養"},{"start":10190.134,"end":10215.317,"text":"但是我说一般地方一般地方现在其实并没有像我们的地方县市政府中央跟地方都可以共同来做的嘛你可以把盘点出这个热区跟人跟这个流浪的流浪动物有冲突性比较高的地方这些地方你先请来公布执行有些县市其实他们有自己做一些自治条例的一些公告有"},{"start":10215.777,"end":10240.1,"text":"像桃園都已经有公布了其实我们都蛮欢迎的因为我觉得这样其实算是我们中央要有制度下去啊可不可以其实整体性的可不可以说这个盘点哪些地区是热区就我们来看其实也不叫热区不热区其实对我们来看其实只要不是你自己的动物真的不要去喂常常发生事情被动物咬啊或者追理论是不是自己的动物其实不要去喂它不管是狗猫或者是野生动物对 你要怎么样去公告可以公告吗"},{"start":10240.9,"end":10267.339,"text":"目前在中央的法規哪些地方有熱區你就公告嘛優先公告做得到嗎地方自治是可以公告但是目前中央法規並沒有這樣的一條來做只有在自然公園保護區那些有我們在做辦法的處理我是覺得不要什麼都推到地方啦我們中央也可以盤點一下有哪些地方是熱區我們就先行公告地方也好去執行嘛"},{"start":10268.752,"end":10294.402,"text":"這巡檢的人員也可以有這個量能啊去做他可以做的事情可以作為是提示性的但是其實並沒有法源可以去這才可以降低這個衝突風險的地方啊可不可以我想其實你們去研議不要一下風雪掉好不好我們來盤點一下研議啦中央跟地方要攜手合作把事情才可以徹底的執行下去好不好那接下來本席要提的就是"},{"start":10296.502,"end":10317.543,"text":"常事我要問你就是進行台灣紅火與防制已經有多少年了多少年了不知道20幾年了有20幾年了2003年開始到現在我們經費一年一年編下去全台的面積"},{"start":10318.76,"end":10345.983,"text":"是只有增加还是减少你知道吗并没有大幅增加但是在于比方说像像花莲好了这次那个烟社会的时候其实我们的那个红火与中心其实启动调查因为也怕那个水流把这些这个分布增加所以其实整个机制是有的但是防治效果必须看能不能集中火力来做集中火力有做其实都会有效果像金门效果就做得还不错效果很好"},{"start":10347.626,"end":10375.641,"text":"這樣很好 我們都樂觀其成喔但是嘗試桃園呢桃園是全台灣總面積的一半以上其他縣市的總和還都超過桃園的面積是增加的你越防治 我們桃園增加的越多現在桃園43000多公頃 現在增加了多少增加了300公頃等於我們榮科三期的三個這麼大"},{"start":10378.304,"end":10395.163,"text":"經費年年增加從2000多萬一直增加到3700多萬年年增加你們越防疫我們桃園增加越多那堂志有什麼防治上要檢討要盤點的經費都給你們了防治的效果沒有出來"},{"start":10395.783,"end":10418.12,"text":"其實桃園是積極的積極的反而增加別的地方都減少了沒有 它是因為它建設多我坦白講確實是因為桃園建設很多那其實桃園市政府是積極所以我也要替他講話建設很多因為有土方移動這是跟中央跟地方共同的合作的地方是 那其實像我剛剛為什麼特別提金門因為其實金門後來有用那個無人機去做頭額"},{"start":10419.437,"end":10441.465,"text":"那所以明年也要规划无人机的预算我们会跟桃园做方法上面的经济因为其实是有方法那去做其实是有效果那今年是在金门事办用无人机的方式确实有效果所以有效那明年开始就要执行我们会跟桃园把这个方法让他知道那桃园的那个我们投放无人机投放药物的这个范围会不会扩大"},{"start":10442.565,"end":10453.891,"text":"基本上其實它是委外所以其實等於是這個委外廠商對於它的投藥的方式第一個 第二個效果要去確實去盯那桃園其實對於這件事情是很注視的面積很大你不能說只有那個幾公頃而已你要擴大那個面積 範圍"},{"start":10457.553,"end":10482.334,"text":"桃園是就那個跟人有接觸的那些都會行的地方先做因為先不要傷害到人第一個那第二個就其他的地方農地也好包括那個他們是可以用無人機去做這個我們會跟桃園來希望說加大對桃園這個地區的噴灑頻率跟範圍要擴大而且桃園面積是增加的因為你原來是12個縣市現在已經減少到10個縣市有沒有其他縣市有增加的部分"},{"start":10483.214,"end":10508.286,"text":"目前其實桃園算是比較因為其他縣市沒有增加建設很多所以請把桃園設為專案加強的地方好不好好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠蘇巧惠委員不在現場我們請葉元之委員請做詢答"},{"start":10519.414,"end":10520.395,"text":"主席好 請找農業部請杜志"},{"start":10528.018,"end":10546.579,"text":"委員好市長因為大家都非常關心動物保護啦然後也提了很多動保法的修正法案那為什麼你們的那個版本都一直不送來啊是為什麼啊有人覺得大家提的沒有什麼意義還是還是動保不重要還是怎麼樣因為我發現現在"},{"start":10548.061,"end":10560.592,"text":"其實台灣的社會蠻重視動物保護這一塊的尤其是如果有看到動物被虐待甚至於有一些其他的傷害的情勢其實大家都很憤慨你們有注意到台灣社會的這樣的大家關心這個議題嗎"},{"start":10562.819,"end":10581.221,"text":"其实不止社会其实我们这个委员会里面大家也都很重视对当然啊所以提了38个案子出来那为什么只有农业部不重视啊没有我们也很重视啊那为什么法案为什么不赶快提来呢我们是把这个大家提的意见其实有经验过啦因为有共识的希望所以你们不会有版本了"},{"start":10582.148,"end":10608.435,"text":"我們會儘快把行政院版本送起來你們會不會有版本一定會有 我們儘快把行政院版本送起來你們會有版本嗎我們有版本那有版本為什麼不趕快送來呢我們儘快會請行政院保護這是卡在哪裡卡在行政院哪一個高官不重視動保都重視 都非常重視都重視 那是卡在哪裡是還在細心雕琢那個文字還是怎麼樣還是公文旅行因為這個問題大家問很多次了就是每一次來假設大家都在問這件事情的話代表"},{"start":10609.695,"end":10629.574,"text":"農業部或行政院不重視嗎你們農業部送到行政院沒我們過去了已經過去多久了因為其實就像剛剛委員你們出農業部多久了沒有啦 我也沒有跟他說其實社會就是大家對這件事情的重視度很高所以行政院那邊希望把這個沒有 你們送出去多久了嘛"},{"start":10632.256,"end":10646.246,"text":"應該11月有經過政務會議討論過了嘛11月你們11月才送出去沒有啦 我們之前送進去你們之前是去年就送了你們去年就送了送進去了那行政院到底在忙什麼忙了一年多"},{"start":10646.986,"end":10672.598,"text":"希望把大家有共識的經驗出來送進來那你們有去問要多久嗎我們一直在催因為大家都很重視那是卡在左宗泰院長不會啦就是有共識的版本出來就一定會馬上送到立法院所以是行政院還沒共識喔謝謝委員支持不是講這個官話啦是真的是太誇張了吧你們去年就送了你們去年就送了我記得農業部長還來過這邊我們還跟他詢答過耶"},{"start":10675.834,"end":10694.874,"text":"然後結果行政院拖一年多完全不當一回事都在忙什麼大罷免喔不是都已經結束了嗎還在忙動物保護議題因為很重要太誇張了啦現在大家幾件事情我覺得大家應該都有共識吧你如果虐待動物加重其刑或罰則"},{"start":10696.497,"end":10712.346,"text":"還有收容廠的一些問題收容量呢都要提升嘛 是沒有問題嘛 是那上一次我在質詢部長的時候那時候我自己有提一個修正案啦應該是新增的就是如果說有"},{"start":10713.286,"end":10727.872,"text":"大量動物的收容所應該要納入縣市管理啦然後可是農業部的回應文字上的回應是講說不妥啦為什麼呢因為有些收容所他可能有地木啊各種型態啊所以納管會有困難"},{"start":10728.792,"end":10753.902,"text":"那當時我就不以為然因為我就印象當中之前比如說工廠也有很多地下工廠是衛利案也是有土地問題但是經濟部就可以訂一個衛利案工廠的管理辦法把它逐步納入管理那為什麼像動物收容所這種就沒辦法你如果不納管的話裡面出現虐待動物各種情勢你無法你可能比較難掌握或後續的一些處理"},{"start":10754.602,"end":10761.831,"text":"那部長後來當下他覺得確實文字不妥那我不知道說這件事情農業部後來有朝向哪個方向"},{"start":10762.945,"end":10787.595,"text":"應該是說不是不管啦因為其實他只要有收容動物這塊其實還是要去輔導要去理解特別是在 獵館獵館對是有獵館因為其實就是說包括他的免疫注射也好他對動物飼養的狀況其實這都要去所以應該嘛應該啦因為我在我花一個分鐘問另外一個議題啦那個把你們趕快送啦好不好大家才比較謝謝更能聚焦好然後我問一下齁我聽說啦齁那個液態乳的"},{"start":10788.913,"end":10807.314,"text":"會有一個平益價格的委員會過去都是9月10月就開了那今年到現在都還沒開可能是12月底才會開那我推測這應該是跟台北的關稅談判有關可能是不是台灣這邊已經確定要開放美國的義太盧了"},{"start":10807.881,"end":10832.82,"text":"那開放美國的液態爐因為現在的美國液態爐進來台灣是有根據是WTO的規定有一定的配額是關稅15%超過配額的話關稅會更高那現在如果說是比較沒有關稅的話美國液態爐進來那一定是消費者的福音因為像Costco的牛奶就很便宜嘛那農業部現在的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":10835.417,"end":10855.288,"text":"那對農民的衝擊你們這個有提出相對應的保護措施嗎應該這樣講乳價平益委員會其實是由弱農跟乳廠組成的其實農業部不在那裡面所以價格是由農業部可以影響農業部每次都說比如說淡價委員會淡農的事跟我無關或者誰怎麼樣其實農業部都可以影響都撇一乾二淨"},{"start":10855.768,"end":10884.925,"text":"乳價評議委員因為我們沒有在裡面啦他們要開會其實我們是樂觀其成就是大家把這個價格對接好嘛因為其實弱農生產的先那好那關稅的問題欸關稅的問題要乳廠去收才能到消費者關稅的問題消費者沒有啦你不知道該沒有關那個吧一定是有關啦弱農也沒參加沒關係你可能不方便講啦我只是講說看起來可能對台灣的農業會衝擊很大啦相信你們應該已經做好相對應的措施了吧"},{"start":10886.049,"end":10915.18,"text":"不管關稅怎麼談 農業部絕對支持臺灣農業OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請賴世邦委員請做詢答謝謝主席以及各位先進有請農業部的杜次長我們再請杜次長"},{"start":10919.738,"end":10945.9,"text":"委員好我想先請教簡單的問題也重要的看起來台美關稅談判已經接近尾聲我們希望越快搞定越好那外界就很擔心很關心大家只有在考慮到說我要去美國要投資10千億美金啊都是去的但是大家很少 其實以前有談過"},{"start":10946.901,"end":10973.226,"text":"但是這被重視的程度沒那麼高就是美國的東西來台灣特別是老紅產品那我諮詢過相關的部會所長他們都是特別是這個台灣代表都有提到美國真的希望去全世界各國他們的產品的面臨到的關稅越低越好最好是0所以我就問你簡單的問題"},{"start":10976.601,"end":10995.765,"text":"美方如果要求他來的農產品全面零關稅我們的農業會蓋進去嗎美方會有他的期待我們也要保護自己的保護你保護不了啊你知道雞腿棒20%的20%雞腿棒"},{"start":11001.699,"end":11014.325,"text":"牛肉這裡面大概十幾趴相關的牛肉片 關稅都在那裡影響農民很大 所以這個這方面我看到我看到農業部"},{"start":11016.172,"end":11042.894,"text":"沒有太大聲音耶你這樣說我要保護保護 要怎麼保護你要說我絕對反對絕對反對美國零關稅 你要這樣說嗎不是這樣說 因為應該是說不管是什麼情形 農業部絕對支持台灣農業 這是第一點第二點我們面對的其實也不只有台美關稅其實我們面對的是整個全球的貿易經濟那怎麼讓我們自己的農產品的生產我提醒你喔 全世界在比如說WTO"},{"start":11043.955,"end":11047.381,"text":"的架構底下幾乎每一個國家都保護他的農業基本上都是這樣子的絕對可以保護的"},{"start":11052.15,"end":11063.019,"text":"給它拆出來我希望今天要聽到你的聲音是農業部絕對反對美國農產品全面零關稅進來台灣你可以講這句話嗎農業部絕對支持台灣農產品反對美國農產品零關稅進來啦我問你這幾個三個字沒有啦這樣啦你敢說沒有應該說有些東西 比如說我們是屬於黃小玉一般的比較少接觸外嘛"},{"start":11078.695,"end":11096.912,"text":"我對你說雞腿碰百分之二十啦雞腿碰百分之二十當然不會所有都零關稅對我們來說要補貨也是要補貨啊對不對假如對我們有好處的進來零關稅讓我們的農民拿到更便宜的東西這不是壞事你要小心喔你要回答這個話要小心喔你不要你說你支持我們的農業結果破壞我們的農業喔絕對支持我們的農業啦"},{"start":11100.255,"end":11126.164,"text":"第二點 第一點我跟妳說你現在公布廚餘的事2027年全面廚餘就是沒有廚餘的最終禁止他養豬是不是 確定落日會在哪一天是還在談因為其實像昨天我們跟養豬協會在談用地的東西不能提倡但是其實整個廚餘區還是有它的一個期限"},{"start":11126.824,"end":11141.848,"text":"現在可能外界關心的不是禁止而已禁止廚餘養豬比較關心的是廚餘產業鏈的問題你怎麼處理能不能把它飼料化 變成飼料日本這樣做是不是日本就是把廚餘變飼料啊我們當時有這個技術說可以把廚餘全面變飼料"},{"start":11149.23,"end":11169.08,"text":"那時間表 可不可以給我時間表廚餘的用途其實也不是只有做成飼料廚餘也能做到多少你去做生殖能去做堆肥去去黑水盲去化 產業鏈啦後面產業鏈完整可以再利用我們或者是飼料或者其他的生殖能源你剛剛講的recycling"},{"start":11170.78,"end":11195.368,"text":"什麼時候可以做到那一步這叫愛蒙環境部愛蒙環境部怎麼會 你要想法啦 你要有想法好啦 我們現在不要有起噴啦不要有這個動物疫病的危險但是環境部就廚餘的去化包括源頭的減量包括的多元利用包括它的後端的管控 其實環境部有在做可是農業部的站點重要的一開始是你們的啊這不就是你們的啊 不然是處理一下他們處理的"},{"start":11195.728,"end":11199.33,"text":"所以我可不可以這樣講 你這政策已經上路了家庭 家裡的那種什麼事你給我時間表吧"},{"start":11213.45,"end":11231.164,"text":"我們來專門給環境部請他給一個完整規劃這樣是嗎不是不是 我說你禁止廚餘禁止廚餘的我們可以來講啦好啦 你禁止廚餘的我們來講啦你直接表講一下啦家用的是什麼時候然後一般事業什麼時候我們行政院拍板我們來講"},{"start":11232.435,"end":11249.908,"text":"阿妳就一定等到2027這樣沒有啦 行政院還不會拍板啦我們前陣子跟養豬團體 他們也提了很多意見阿妳的消息不是都記住了嗎補助線很痛批說2027確定啦 所以沒有確定養豬團體其實希望可以進走啦阿我們也盡量把這個補助轉型的方式沒有啦 2027這個時間對不對啦"},{"start":11251.913,"end":11280.652,"text":"就要等行政院拍板所以那個還沒有搞定可以一年早就早一點這樣現在說過了應該不是我們說的啦明天這套片你寫的 結果說過了嗎應該這兩天就會確定啦這兩天可以確定什麼時候 這個禮拜可以確定嗎要行政院拍板才對外正式我們希望不僅僅禁止啦而且是怎麼樣那個處理啦再利用啦recycling這個非常重要啦 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11283.53,"end":11300.291,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請郭育琴委員請做詢答好 謝謝主席有請次長跟司長好 我們請兩位"},{"start":11306.282,"end":11323.045,"text":"兩位早安其實講到動物保護這件事情台灣雖然起步比較慢因為到現在為止我們的動保法其實差不多是40年左右這樣子的一個進程但是其實我們也看到一步一步的在往前前進那這次的這個動保法的修法我也提出了很多的版本但是其實我"},{"start":11323.285,"end":11346.763,"text":"一直不斷地在強調不論是什麼樣的品種不論是什麼樣的一個動物的生命不管是陪伴動物也好 競技動物也好實驗動物也好 爬蟲類也好異種的管理 源頭管理非常的重要但是在源頭管理沒有辦法落地來落實的時候其實我們中間還有好長的一段路要走那尤其是現在又跟過去的整個所有的整體環境又不一樣了"},{"start":11347.263,"end":11373.375,"text":"現在數位平台的發展是遠超乎我們的想像所以在整個所有的數位平台當中是不是也存在著所謂的虐待動物甚至是黑市的這樣子的一個狀況存在那我想今天就幾個問題我們來提醒一下就是不管是我們的這個農業部也好或者是甚至接下來可能抒發部或者是我們的NCC可能這個部分我們要怎麼樣來跨部會來做"},{"start":11374.755,"end":11392.641,"text":"更強烈的一些規範好那我先提到喔很多人在講說山豬釣到底山豬釣釣的真的只有山豬嗎那現在其實我們這個在網路上隨便搜尋幾百塊錢的這樣子的一個工具是隨時都看得到"},{"start":11393.041,"end":11414.746,"text":"他只要換了所謂的這個關鍵字他其實就可以模糊這樣的一個焦點那在平台上面來做販售他已經直接危害到不管是我們的野生或者是保育類動物甚至於貓犬等等像這一類的這個列據是完全無法可管好這是第一個問題我想點出來的第二個問題"},{"start":11416.557,"end":11430.286,"text":"現在在網路上面流竄的還有很多食品安全的危害的問題我所謂的食品安全的問題是包含它是自製的不管是鮮食也好或者是風乾過後的一些產品也好它分裝成所謂的寵物食品在網路上做販售但是它沒有成分的檢驗也沒有產品的責任險等等"},{"start":11442.814,"end":11470.375,"text":"這些我們應該要怎麼樣才有法可管這個是第二個問題再來第三個就是我一直不斷的在關心私繁的問題私人繁殖場非法繁殖場有特寵症的人人犬舍都會出事更何況是私繁的問題現在也潛藏在整個所有的網路平台不管是利用IG也好用LINE也好他們其實都在做這樣子的私繁的一個延伸"},{"start":11471.335,"end":11490.336,"text":"這個部分我們常常只有追究所謂的行為人強調行為人的責任但是平台的責任誰要來管我們是不是可以負起這樣子的一個監管的一個責任這是第三個問題再來第四個問題包含我們看到查緝的死角"},{"start":11491.196,"end":11507.542,"text":"販售也好交換資訊的一個溫床有沒有可能讓網路平台已經成為了我們是無法可以監管就算我們看得到抓不到或者是抓得到其實為時已經晚了這個部分我想請教一下這個農業部或者是"},{"start":11507.882,"end":11512.483,"text":"我們的動保司我們平台要不要負起該負的責任那麼這個我把問題點出來今天因為時間上的一個關係包含我們動物風險的一些所謂的品項我們應該要有非常嚴格的審查的一個制度然後再來包含列具食品的安全保健品等等"},{"start":11529.768,"end":11550.899,"text":"甚至活體的動物在線上在做平台的交換或者是買賣這個我們要不要追究平台的責任我們應該要怎麼管我想修法的路很長雖然在動保法我提了非常多的版本我也跟我們的司長跟副司長我們討論過非常多次也接收到很多的民間的團體對我們的請託但是我想再次的強調不論動物是誰"},{"start":11557.062,"end":11573.298,"text":"不論任何品種我們都希望保護動物這件事情是台灣我們每一個人大家都有的共識即便我們看到綠列蜥很多人說牠們是爬蟲類爬蟲類也是生命啊我們看到就算牠不是冷血動物牠是變溫動物牠反手被綁"},{"start":11576.761,"end":11600.834,"text":"他繁殖過量源頭沒有管制被一隻隻像烤肉串串起來被獵殺他說數量多了我們就來殺這不是我們愛動物尊重動物尊重生命的一種態度我想今天我就提到這邊很抱歉因為今天時間有限沒有讓兩位來做回答我想事後我們還有很多的時間可以坐下來好好的面對動物保護在台灣的一些問題好嗎好謝謝兩位謝謝好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11606.536,"end":11628.639,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員請做詢問現在主席我們有請次長我們再請杜次"},{"start":11633.032,"end":11652.745,"text":"委員好 次長好我想跟您討論一下上個週末非常熱搜的一個新聞叫做大動山派出所貓的報恩他們後來是說這個是友善餵養我想次長應該非常知道這個新聞內容我就不多說但是我想問一下友善餵養有這個名詞嗎"},{"start":11655.236,"end":11683.961,"text":"我們有這個名詞嗎沒有這個名詞我想我們現在應該是幼哺的時候嘛在有時候我們在動保處要作業的時候我們才會允許這樣子的一個餵養動作嘛我們應該沒有屬於友善餵養嘛那在我們的動保法裡面呢其實在第21條第20條都是禁止放養這個到底算不算放養報告委員放養的概念是有4組的動物好 那我就問這樣子算不算4組警政署這樣算不算4組"},{"start":11685.458,"end":11694.168,"text":"如果能夠確定是有那個照顧的事實那就會視同為管理人那也就是事主動保法的定義"},{"start":11694.912,"end":11723.701,"text":"好這個就是現在就是有很多的不確定性嘛對不對這個案例就顯示了我們現在法的許多的不確定性因為我們在實務上面我們沒有辦法明確說他是一個有主人的認定的話我們就沒有辦法用後續剛剛講的禁止放養等等來去約束他也就是說在我們現在很多的狀況之下很多人就說我是用友善慰養各種的方式來說結果呢出事的時候都說這都不是我的"},{"start":11724.868,"end":11744.563,"text":"不管是造成人員的傷亡有很多的學生也來跟我講他們在學校的時候很怕被這個遊蕩犬給追咬或是他騎車上學的時候每天經過某一條路他都非常的害怕那最近他出事了他就受傷了而這樣子的事件呢一年就有三千起被追咬的這個案例"},{"start":11745.624,"end":11763.977,"text":"是現在實務上我們是無法處理的所以我覺得這是動保法裡面最大的一個漏洞我們講四組責任我們講源頭觀念可是我們沒有辦法去處理這一種五組飼養的認定我覺得這個是動保法動保司應該要來提出相關的具體作為跟修法的那不曉得動保司的想法是什麼"},{"start":11766.418,"end":11778.571,"text":"報告委員從這個角度我們會來做一個思考讓它整個質詢跟文字能夠更清楚讓它配套能夠更明確否則那個存在剛剛提到的模糊的空間實是不利於整個動保工作的落實"},{"start":11780.277,"end":11798.402,"text":"好 這樣聽起來是會往這個方向來去思考我們來如何的讓這一些不自主的認定上面可以更明確好 那再來就是說還有我們現在在這一個大動物的派出所這邊它其實坐落在的位置"},{"start":11798.982,"end":11827.507,"text":"是在大雪山國家森林遊樂區以及他附近的在遠一點的地方有雪壩自然保護區所以那邊其實有非常非常多的一個野生動物那我想我們在這個野生動物的一個保育上面呢這個這個地方警政署這樣子的作為實質上就會影響到我們一些野生動物的保育我不曉得說內政部我們會不會去跟內政部警政署做相關的溝通呢動保司"},{"start":11829.622,"end":11858.3,"text":"对 因为它直接影响到目前这个案子我们的了解是台中市动保处已经到现场去做一些等于是捕捉跟移除的动作那这部分已经正式在处理了但是据我所知警政署有很多的警察局其实都在我们的很多的森林保护区也都在我们的山里那如果我们的警政警察同仁没有这样子的一个观念就是说不可以喂养的观念的话那我们就有很多的"},{"start":11858.76,"end":11885.952,"text":"野生動物會因此而受害所以我建議我們應該要跟警政署來去做一個強化的溝通跟教育訓練讓他們了解我們應該要依法而且要有一個更進步的觀念去保護我們野生動物這個物種我想跟那個警政署那邊特別是坐落在那個保護區裡面的這些警察局該要相關的觀念的溝通我們會來做好 再進一步延伸下來今天我們這一些遊蕩犬牠會跑進豬圈裡呢"},{"start":11889.586,"end":11912.132,"text":"這個其實是有新聞 他衝進豬圈裡有這樣子的案例因為他會爬地去自己把網子弄開自己跑進去對 他衝進豬圈裡那我們前陣子非洲豬瘟的這個我想記憶猶新嘛 大家都很害怕沒有辦法好好守護我們的台灣豬那豬隻 這個狗狗跑進了這些豬圈裡面會不會也有可能是防非洲豬瘟的一個破口呢"},{"start":11912.872,"end":11928.601,"text":"其實不管是在防疫上面或是其實對於那個豬場本身的驚嚇豬跟豬的主人的驚嚇其實都是一個干擾好 所以我想這個就是我們都要非常小心疫情的擴散不管是非洲豬瘟也好甚至是狂犬病"},{"start":11929.381,"end":11953.479,"text":"因為最近我查了一下資料就是說前陣子我們苗栗有一個疑似犬隻感染狂犬病雖然說它是陰性可是事實上我們現在也非常明確的知道說我們這個區域已經從山區往人類聚集期像這一次是在牧場發生的所以因為狂犬病是人犬會相通的一個疾病"},{"start":11954.159,"end":11956.861,"text":"所以我認為這個遊蕩權的處置方式我們要更積極不應該這麼消極在法的層面上面我們都應該要更強調這個餵食者的責任可以嗎因為這個其實是人社會安全還有我們的經濟安全還有防疫的問題"},{"start":11973.674,"end":11992.984,"text":"這個東西要請這個農業部更積極的來去提出一些修法的版本那再來我要幫這個前線人員來請個命啦就是說102年的農委會跟機關署其實有一個前線人員疫苗施打方案但是102年之後就沒有了可是我們這個黃血病其實是逐漸在擴散逐漸在往北移"},{"start":11993.993,"end":12020.125,"text":"那我們是不是可以讓我們的前線人員都有可以施打的計畫呢因為現在我們常備的疫苗只有1萬支總共只有3300人可以施打可是高風險人是超過3300的包含我們的巡山員保齊特生中心公職的獸醫師都會存在風險我們是不是可以提供一個相關的計畫來支持他們來保護他們我們來跟疾管署講像每年流感季節很多去處理禽流感的第一線夥伴其實是有打流感疫苗"},{"start":12020.305,"end":12046.046,"text":"那在狂犬病的部分我想我們會跟疾管署來請求把這個照冊然後希望能夠編列能夠讓他們去施打疫苗因為這個確實在第一線執行業務有它的危險好 那再來是下一個部分也是要幫獸醫師請命就是說我們的獸醫師其實他們現在已經有太多太多的新聞我想這個次長也都非常清楚他們說他們的人力不足行政負荷過重以及他們常常要這個"},{"start":12048.588,"end":12069.033,"text":"處理很多這個遊蕩犬的問題不管是人犬衝突啦各種衝突等等的所以他們其實沒有時間去處理應該要做好的一些防疫工作所以這些行政上面的工作上面我們常常就只有告訴他說我們會他們明明需要一些支持可是你們給他們的支持卻是說你們會給他們更多的輔導跟訓練"},{"start":12070.553,"end":12097.91,"text":"好像沒有對到他們的需要他們需要的支持你們卻只有告訴他們會給他加強訓練我覺得這不合理還有在另外一個部分就是說我們現在很多的收容中心其實周轉率非常非常的差那獸醫師要花非常非常多的時間去照顧那些其實已經符合國際標準動物福利的觀念他其實要做一些人道處理不然其實讓這個動物承受的痛苦是更長更久其實對動物是更不人道的做法可是他們沒有辦法去執法"},{"start":12098.61,"end":12119.396,"text":"但是呢我們動保我們農業部動保也沒有給他任何的態度去支持他們這個部分我認為其實我們應該要建立一個支持的機制來減輕他們的壓力我們的想法呢完全朝這個方向不只是在執行上面讓他們能夠更順利的去做還有行政作業上面心理上面的壓力也能夠更減少好那這個部分我們是不是可以約個時間再來詳細的討論非常樂意好謝謝"},{"start":12127.267,"end":12131.221,"text":"好 我們今天中午不休息到我們議程全部確認"},{"start":12134.472,"end":12155.086,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員我們請陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員我們請張志倫委員 張志倫 張志倫委員請武力華委員 武力華 武力華委員請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員請洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員請吳佩義 吳佩義 吳佩義委員請羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員"},{"start":12160.771,"end":12168.899,"text":"請羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員請徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員請李昆城 李昆城 李昆城委員好"},{"start":12171.846,"end":12195.656,"text":"那我们登记发言的委员除了不在场之外其余都已经发言完毕 询答结束我们有委员 张志伦委员 邱志伟委员以及吴佩义委员所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询以及未及答复的部分请相关单位于一周之内以书面答复不付之本会那委员另要求期限所"},{"start":12196.776,"end":12209.184,"text":"期限者從期鎖定那我們今天討論的事項所列的議程動物保護法部分條文修正草案詢答完畢令定期繼續進行審查 散會"}]}},{"id":"166132","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166132","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d641d428cd8e5a1fe54cd0246cdf0bd28ba14720b4e10c82cbb268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:18:50 - 11:26:40","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T11:18:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T11:26:40+08:00","duration":470,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.98659375,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.74534375,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.68596875,"end":39.400343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.55221875,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.77096875000001,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.14159375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.32284375,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":83.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.85346875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.03034375,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.93659375,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.78034375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.08784375,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.50971875,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.44346875000001,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.31471875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.03909375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.01346875000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":148.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.05409375000002,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.15909375,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.04909375,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.53784375,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.29284375,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.87909375,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.35534375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.69034375,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.56784375,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.69784375,"end":193.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.47784375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.58721875,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.26096875000002,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.00659375,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.68971875000003,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.90221875,"end":239.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.58409375000002,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.04346875000002,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.07721875000001,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.82784375000003,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.86159375000003,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":251.4347187500000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請杜長賜我們請杜賜"},{"start":18.015,"end":38.972,"text":"常事很有活力还有跑步的辛苦了一个早上常事我们的动保法修法其实我们已经在112年的时候就已经农业部就已经送到行政院行政院到现在都还没有排审他的意见大概就是说很多的意见分歧非常的混乱但是本席在这边提到"},{"start":39.693,"end":67.686,"text":"因為我們動保法的這個修法我們在委員會拍了多少次的諮詢就是等我們原版的版本進來那現在如果意見很分歧的話我們可不可以去盤點一下分階段分項目的來處理如果說像是這個高虐待動物的這個罰款的啊或者是說提升動物的這個保護的檢查員這個執法的這個量能這部分有共識的部分我們先提出來來做修法可不可以"},{"start":68.426,"end":82.27,"text":"謝謝委員我們覺得也是應該讓有共識的先提出來不要整版都不提出來嗎謝謝我們的方向也是這樣子所以那年底可以提出來嗎已經很多有共識了有共識的我們會先來做年底可以提出來嗎應該可以現在行政院的版本應該只願會而已"},{"start":85.012,"end":92.036,"text":"一直在那边112年就放到现在了非常缓慢政务会议审过只剩下院会所以我们会来再催一下所以年底可以出来吗"},{"start":114.511,"end":132.005,"text":"如果說要全面禁止餵養的話可能會有困難有些志工要經過餵食的時候來捕抓這些流浪的動物所以我們可不可以針對人跟動物有衝突的熱區盤點這個熱區用這個熱區的地方我們來禁止餵養來先行公佈可不可以"},{"start":139.251,"end":157.67,"text":"我們現在的做法是這樣子啦 其實當然對於如果跟人有衝突的 侵犯人的 去追狗的很多啊 有些被咬傷的 被追又跌倒的我們就列作優先去這個把它捕捉這些遊蕩犬控制啦 這是第一點那對於野生動物 像自然公園啦 保護區啦"},{"start":159.472,"end":187.299,"text":"保護區的前面禁止餵養但是我說一般地方一般地方現在其實並沒有像我們地方縣市政府中央跟地方都可以共同來做的嘛你可以把盤點出這個熱區跟人跟這個流浪的流浪動物有衝突性比較高的地方這些地方你先請來公布執行禁止餵養有些縣市其實他們有自己做一些自治條例的一些公告有"},{"start":187.799,"end":211.974,"text":"像桃園都已經有公布了其實我們都蠻歡迎的因為我覺得這樣其實算是我們中央要有制度下去啊可不可以其實整體性的可不可以說這個盤點哪些地區是熱區就我們來看其實也不叫熱區不熱區其實對我們來看其實只要不是你自己的動物真的不要去餵常常發生事情被動物咬啊或者追理論是不是自己的動物其實不要去餵它不管是狗貓或者是野生動物你要怎麼樣去公告可以公告嗎"},{"start":212.914,"end":239.355,"text":"目前在中央的法規你盤點熱區盤點出來沒有哪些地方有熱區你就公告嘛優先公告做得到嗎地方自治是可以公告但是目前中央法規並沒有這樣的一條來做只有在自然公園保護區那些我們在做辦法的處理我是覺得不要什麼都推到地方啦我們中央也可以盤點一下有哪些地方是熱區我們就先行公告地方也好去執行嘛"},{"start":240.786,"end":245.318,"text":"這巡檢的人員也可以有這個量能啊去做他可以做的事情"},{"start":246.854,"end":274.714,"text":"可以作為是提示性的但是其實並沒有法源可以去這才可以降低這個衝突風險的地方啊可不可以我想其實你們去研議不要一下否決掉好不好我們來盤點一下研議啦中央跟地方要攜手合作把事情才可以徹底的執行下去好不好那接下來本席要提的就是常次我要問你就是進行台灣紅火與防制已經有多少年了"},{"start":277.076,"end":289.554,"text":"多少年了不知道20幾年了有20幾年了2003年開始到現在我們經費一年一年編下去全台的面積"},{"start":290.774,"end":317.996,"text":"是只有增加还是减少你知道吗并没有大幅增加但是在于比方说像像花莲好了这次那个烟社会的时候其实我们的那个红火与中心其实启动调查因为也怕那个水流把这些这个分布增加所以其实整个机制是有的但是防治效果必须看能不能集中火力来做集中火力有做其实都会有效果像金门效果就做得还不错效果很好"},{"start":319.64,"end":347.655,"text":"這樣很好 我們都樂觀其成喔但是嘗試桃園呢桃園是全台灣總面積的一半以上其他縣市的總和還都超過桃園的面積是增加的你越防治 我們桃園增加的越多現在桃園43000多公頃 現在增加了多少增加了300公頃等於我們榮科三期的三個這麼大"},{"start":350.337,"end":367.174,"text":"經費年年增加從2000多萬一直增加到3700多萬年年增加你們越防疫我們桃園增加越多那堂志有什麼防治上要檢討要盤點的經費都給你們了防治的效果沒有出來"},{"start":367.794,"end":390.127,"text":"其實桃園是積極的積極的反而增加 別的地方都減少了它是因為它建設多我坦白講確實是因為桃園建設很多那其實桃園市政府是積極所以我也要替他講話建設很多因為有土方移動這是跟中央跟地方共同的合作的地方那其實像我剛剛為什麼特別提金門因為其實金門後來有用那個無人機去做頭額"},{"start":391.468,"end":412.057,"text":"那所以明年也要規劃無人機的預算我們會跟桃園做方法上面的經濟因為其實是有方法那去做其實是有效果那今年是在金門事辦用無人機的方式確實有效果所以有效 那明年開始就要執行我們會跟桃園把這個方法讓他知道那我們投放無人機投放藥物的範圍會不會擴大"},{"start":414.578,"end":423.305,"text":"基本上其實它是委外所以其實等於是這個委外廠商對於它的投藥的方式第一個第二個效果要去確實去盯那桃園其實對於這件事情是很重視面積很大你不能說只有那個幾公頃而已你要擴大那個面積 範圍"},{"start":429.509,"end":454.347,"text":"桃園是就那個跟人有接觸的那些都會行的地方先做因為先不要傷害到人第一個那第二個就其他的地方農地也好包括那個他們是可以用無人機去做這個我們會跟桃園來希望說加大對桃園這個地區的噴灑頻率跟範圍要擴大而且桃園面積是增加的因為你原來是12個縣市現在已經減少到10個縣市有沒有其他縣市有增加的部分"},{"start":455.228,"end":467.53,"text":"目前其实桃园算是比较其他县市没有增加建设很多所以请把桃园设为专案加强的地方好不好好谢谢"}]}},{"id":"166131","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166131","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d660d8ebba8d48269f0bc060c38740833ea14720b4e10c82cb12ef279f21671aaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:16:48 - 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有請次長請黃次長"},{"start":11.226,"end":35.727,"text":"委員你好次長好我想我今天主要是要跟您討論我們杭州的亞帕運台灣選手真的是為國爭光我們可以看到這些不管是金牌銀牌的有非常好的成績但是今天我們的主題是運動平權所以我就想問除了性別等平權之外障礙者"},{"start":36.568,"end":52.457,"text":"到底有沒有一個平權那相較於我們的怕運的成績你可以看一下台灣的障礙者想要去運動被拒絕的案例層出不窮我們隨便搜尋一下就看到就是"},{"start":53.157,"end":68.4,"text":"台北運動中心不友善輪椅族難健身身障者運動進場就被拒那還有就是汐止的運動場被控他以輪椅族會破壞場地為由拒絕身障者入場"},{"start":69.281,"end":95.149,"text":"我想请问次长您今天应该是有备而来因为主题已经告诉您了运动部成立的时候标举运动平权请问您知不知道全国有多少公立的运动中心无障碍设施各场馆让障碍者使用的设备有哪些呢次长不晓得有没有准备这个资料确实的数字我没有但是我知道不高"},{"start":95.834,"end":111.729,"text":"不高是一半还是不到一半那各场馆有障碍者使用的设备有哪些更少那我办公室去整理了资料这个都是根据审计部跟体育署的委托研究案"},{"start":113.93,"end":135.916,"text":"100個運動中心有48個完全沒有任何的無障礙幾乎就是一半了跟輔具26座直棒籃球跟排球主要場館13座場館也是一半沒有無障礙通道也沒有視障者引導設施輪椅連觀眾席連去看都不足了更何況"},{"start":136.636,"end":157.117,"text":"下场那13座综合型场馆没有无障碍厕所也没有视障者引导轮椅观众席跟无障碍机车停车位都不足简直是连接近这个场馆去当个观众都不足所以这个是不是离运动平权还很远市长非常的远"},{"start":158.758,"end":178.29,"text":"我想我們應該要從經驗相近但比我們好的國家我們的經濟奇蹟都已經說超越日本了我們看一下日本它的口號已經是從復健到共融共融這個字眼我們現在只有在兒童的遊戲提到共融"},{"start":180.031,"end":193.105,"text":"1964年東京帕運當時身障運動是被當成是醫療復健讓傷兵病患恢復功能可是人家在2011年修正運動基本法的時候"},{"start":194.403,"end":222.777,"text":"就把运动权入法指出运动是所有国民国民当然包含身障者而且是权力不是社会福利所以主管机关不是卫福部就是你运动部而且要提的事情是现在身障者老人家很高的比例就是身障者统计上还没有放在身障者那东京怕运就走入了前面2011年是运动基本法东京怕运走入共融"},{"start":223.357,"end":236.657,"text":"無障礙心靈通用設計日本他們喊出的KPI是什麼他們的體育廳就是我們的運動部成人間身障者每週運動一次的比例要達到40%"},{"start":239.369,"end":254.203,"text":"可是台灣不用算每週一次了微服部自己的調查台灣只有16%的身心障礙者有選擇體育作為休閒活動有超過八成的人連運動都沒有運動"},{"start":256.945,"end":274.813,"text":"所以障碍者遇到什么问题这是有人做的硕士论文以台北市为例台北市应该是要设施最好吧有位说我不敢进去因为我不知道自己进去是对或不对他连自己有没有权利进去都不敢"},{"start":275.433,"end":301.304,"text":"另外一个说他去游泳救生员也不会特别的告诉你说操作面他觉得这是每个人与人之间的禁忌救生员也会担心说如果问你的话会不会触犯到你救生员也没有这样的训练我拿轮椅过去给他看他还是不愿意借我们还是不接受非常的排斥歧视然后这个身上者说我没有影响力是小小一个小市民"},{"start":301.764,"end":316.338,"text":"你可以看到身心障礙者不敢過去覺得自己沒有這個權利然後去了之後還被歧視那或者是對方害怕跟你討論怎麼協助你所以問題很大可是你看一下日本"},{"start":317.239,"end":343.573,"text":"接待手冊有官方的2019年就頒布運動場館身障者接待手冊一不能拒絕入場二地板保護對策教導管理員要準備輪椅輪胎套或擦拭布協助輪椅如果套上輪胎套就沒有場地受傷害的問題如果輪椅的輪胎髒了也是可以擦乾淨"},{"start":344.594,"end":370.128,"text":"还有沟通辅具有笔谈板简易沟通图卡所以面对到失账者或者是各种障碍者都能够沟通这个是有手册的因为今天时间有限我就具体既然我们运动部是成立了标举运动平权我们台湾障碍青年协会已经提醒我们光有纸本的手册是不够的"},{"start":370.968,"end":398.459,"text":"因为第一线的管理人员会因为不理解他也不是故意的他就是不了解就先拒绝所以我对运动部今天有两个要求第一个日本已经把手册制定出来了我们是不是可以参考日本制定的接待手册报告委员目前这个部分已经在努力了还没做完正在拟定了这个手册正在拟定当中什么时候会出来给我们教文委员一个答案好吗"},{"start":401.856,"end":424.213,"text":"因为我在读资料的时候他们的确是说我们要开始去制定但是时间那时间今天您是次长有这个权限今天是运动平权是不是告诉我们什么时候可以出来我们这样好不好我们半年把它做出来因为同一个时间还要去做培训半年做出手册那是不是给我们教文委员一人一本好吗让我们看一下是"},{"start":424.713,"end":450.36,"text":"那也要培训第一线人员好不好那多久内可以培训出来做我们手册出来之后我们会规划期程来培训可不可以一年内培训完第一线工作人员给你手册完之后一年的时间有没有办法全部的人都接受训练我不敢保证但是我们一定会努力去到各县市去办理这样子的培训至少办完第一次各县市的培训各县市一定会"},{"start":451.081,"end":466.196,"text":"就是半年内手册出来之后一年内办完第一次全国各县市的培训谢谢次长第二个很重要其他部会像我们面对故宫他都已经建立身心障碍者的权益小组"},{"start":466.716,"end":485.872,"text":"邀集一半以上的身障者代表定期召開會議那在這個會議中制定KPI像我們看到日本的體育廳它的KPI是身障者每週要運動一次的比例要達到40%那我們台灣也不用照抄我們就讓你們"},{"start":487.293,"end":490.979,"text":"我们目前有成立一个平权工作小组"},{"start":502.896,"end":528.858,"text":"我看了你们的网站上空空的没有任何内容还没有开这是事实人权有很多范围懂人权的未必懂身障权益所以我们是平权工作小组包含了人权跟障碍因素你是不是可以更具体因为我知道的性别专家就不一定懂身障权益是不是身障者权益可以有一个小组好不好我们在这个平权里面会分小组去讨论个别的议题"},{"start":529.198,"end":556.444,"text":"那生長權益的小組多久之內可以組成呢先組成吧召開第一次會議我們一個月內一個月內就組成那要有一半以上的生長者因為平權的工作小組要先有下設不同的那一個月內也把書面資料給本席好嗎好 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當然 這個是我們不知道對 沒有 這個是主委啊 我現在要跟你說的是小局書的緊急避難包準備在國外 先進國家其實都有很具體的建議荷蘭政府建議三天成人70塊歐元 兒童30塊歐元"},{"start":86.773,"end":113.756,"text":"芬蘭三天美國郵他州五天而且汽油要兩百塊汽車旅款七百塊飲食兩百塊大概一千一百塊一個成人也就是說台灣一個人準備三天的基本需求如果是三天你覺得台灣人應該準備多少錢在這個小小避難包裡面"},{"start":114.605,"end":135.144,"text":"我想說三天我想在座的每個人應該的金額都是不一樣的對 但是我們政府要建議多少我們大概算一算一天大概抓一千塊三天如果70歐元的話大概是三千塊左右這個部分是不是在金管會也好還有給所有行政院內政部的建議我建議更具體一點"},{"start":136.425,"end":157.119,"text":"因為這次既然花這麼大的錢通知民眾就不應該這麼空洞啦我這樣聽起來我覺得如果我們跟人家比起來我們是很空洞少許現金少許少許是多少不知道也沒有計畫也沒有相關的警示這是第一個我認為"},{"start":158.2,"end":177.8,"text":"我們如果真的要做安全指引的話可能各方面都要第二個部分就是我在去年十月質詢卓院長主委也在我說其實我們暫時最重要的是要做金融兵推金融兵推我知道你們有開始在做調整但是如果真的發生暫時的時候"},{"start":179.321,"end":196.287,"text":"除了剛剛講的現金準備可能會變成擠兌甚至驚慌失措甚至會有所謂的暴力犯罪那金融秩序的安定是建構在我們的銀行體系還正常運作"},{"start":197.427,"end":212.955,"text":"只要他一旦沒有辦法正常運作其實是會非常恐慌的所以民眾除了剛剛講的準備幾千塊放在包包裡以外他其實在國外還有一個非常重要在金融方面的建議就是"},{"start":214.036,"end":231.572,"text":"一旦銀行的資料庫萬一發生了問題你的存款連銀行都沒有辦法告訴你說你的存款還在哪裡的時候民眾其實要預先做好一些準備的對吧 主委是 你覺得呢在那小冊子裡面有提到就是說你要保留你的存摺"},{"start":232.785,"end":250.632,"text":"保留你的存摺第二個現在已經很多銀行沒有存摺了至少我的一些外商銀行它已經沒有存摺所以大家建議的是你的提款卡要拍照備份存在自己的雲端將來如果這些體系都已經瓦解的時候你還可以證明你自己的存款還在"},{"start":251.432,"end":269.042,"text":"對 他有建議電子紀錄啦相關的電子紀錄是 所以主委你認不認為你們應該更積極的參與這個所謂的安全指引的指示甚至再做多一點事情這是國家的事情各個部會相關都有參與是 所以我現在要求的就是金管會應該更具體"},{"start":270.583,"end":298.8,"text":"第二個在金融真的發生這些問題的時候你開一場大火他所有東西都燒光了他連自己可能只剩下連身份證都沒有了就全部重辦銀行帳戶有很多像我自己我可能忘記我有幾個銀行帳戶了這些東西都應該現在就開始提醒民眾你應該把你的個人資產做好完整的備份資料將來如果萬一的體系完全失聯的話完全失控的話你還有保存你的資產的這些價值"},{"start":300.441,"end":325.307,"text":"好嗎我覺得剛剛委員提的建議都非常的務實也非常的值得我們來思考是 所以主委我希望金管會更積極一點在這個所謂大家都認為安全指引很重要的情況下銀行端當然他們本來就應該做好準備但是你不可排除看到別人的戰爭我們自己也要有自己的提醒第二個我們的銀行自己的系統會不會因而受損"},{"start":326.227,"end":344.242,"text":"雖然現在有異地備援有各種的方式但是還是應該提醒民眾他們自己對自己的資產應該有一定的保護是我想這也是那個小橘書一個很重要的意義提醒國民去安思維小橘書看到跟你有關的就這麼那兩句話少許的現金然後沒了"},{"start":345.503,"end":371.183,"text":"這是我覺得很可惜啦可以多一頁怎麼樣保留你的資產怎麼樣讓你在這邊在災後復原的時候能夠不會受到你的東西不見了燒光了甚至銀行體系也垮了你的東西找不到了這些問題所以我覺得主委我希望我今天的提起希望你們在今年會期之前你們至少有一個更具體的剛剛講"},{"start":372.424,"end":381.474,"text":"歐洲政府都這麼具體台灣的政府更具體一點這樣可以嗎好 我想說這部分我剛才已經說過為那個是非常務實也是非常這個"},{"start":384.192,"end":405.147,"text":"這個緊急避難包對於民眾來說可能當場救命可是他接下來要繼續生活他的錢不見了怎麼辦他自己要把自己的檔案存在雲端有個依據將來可以恢復我覺得這個可能不是只有保留存摺而已存摺可能都燒光了而且你也不會隨身攜帶好嗎"},{"start":407.128,"end":432.987,"text":"是的這一點我希望在這個會期我覺得時間給你多一點在休會前至少出一個金管會基本的該有什麼的東西給我一個出面的報告這我們會在相關的會議上面我們提出委員這個好建議是 我覺得安全指引不會只有單單的一個小小的緊急避難保第二部分就是現在銀行法我們接下來要去審所謂的打砸專訪的修正"},{"start":433.587,"end":447.466,"text":"那接下來的是銀行其實很認真現在在做AI管控所以AI最近發生很多民怨我想很多委員都講過了那AI大部分現在都會主動去先暫停交易然後請你來跟我解凍"},{"start":449.028,"end":477.426,"text":"那很多的民眾有多所抱怨但是相對的其實我們銀行我認為啦他們可能也很想多做事但是他們的授權不夠會造成了各種不同的爭執其實儘管會有一個存款帳戶跟疑似不法及嫌屬異常交易的管理辦法就給他很多警示帳戶的權限但是銀行現在非常非常的被動因為他們只有收到"},{"start":478.487,"end":490.787,"text":"減掉來文他們才主動列為警示帳戶比如說看到像太子集團這樣子的狀況其實我覺得他怪怪的銀行是不能對他做任何的限制"},{"start":491.638,"end":512.364,"text":"但是只要檢調通報的一般市井小民的他們馬上就把它列為警示帳戶這就產生了相對非常嚴重的落差感所以這個辦法我看到它是103年8月份訂的辦法在我們打炸專法都已經通過的情況下這個辦法還沒修"},{"start":515.225,"end":543.586,"text":"第二個AI都已經上路了這個辦法也沒有納入耶也就是說如果給銀行更多的法令的依據它除了AI看到的它有一個依據說我可以去把它做調整我可以收到警示我可以主動做點什麼第二個就算不是AI看到我是人我看到這個太子帳戶一大堆錢一大堆亂七八糟的錢之前有那個IMB的帳戶一個月進出五千萬都是小額進來的"},{"start":545.578,"end":571.646,"text":"銀行有通報啊通報啦然後呢沒下文啊沒有人理他我的意思是說如果我們有這個辦法你其實是有武器的銀行也需要你提供給他的武器來做點事但是他現在一出事就被罵被罵他不敢做不敢做之後就擔心這個擔心那個一刻數的話又被評鑑主委你有這個武器要怎麼用而已"},{"start":572.39,"end":589.038,"text":"其實委員講的是但是一般的民眾其實不知道我們打仗專案通過銀行本來就有相當於減掉所控帳戶的但是他現在基本上民眾的宣導我們要加油第二個是他大概都不會主動啦"},{"start":589.258,"end":610.288,"text":"但是必須跟委員報告一般民眾他基本上面對檢調跟面對銀行的他的態度是完全不同的所以我想說這部分銀行背負了很大的壓力我得說我們既然有存款戶疑似不法嫌疏異常交易的管理辦法其實它就是給銀行的授權這個授權就是要讓所有的人都知道銀行是有這樣的權限"},{"start":611.428,"end":628.183,"text":"第二個銀行很想做 對但是主委我還是要強調一次金管會不能什麼都推給打詐專法你自己在你家裡面有這個工具有這個辦法我麻煩你去修一修這也是為什麼我們會要求他用AI鎖框他本來是依法辦理本來就是"},{"start":629.003,"end":656.225,"text":"所以這個法十年沒修了現在的AI現在的新的方式我認為啦你們要把這個辦法更具體化第二個讓所有的民眾他在跟銀行交涉的時候他就知道有可能有一天有這樣的狀況而不是現在發生事情而且現在的AI的確常常出錯我們怎麼樣給銀行一個完整的保護讓他願意多做一點事好嗎"},{"start":657.066,"end":673.562,"text":"我們一定給銀行全力的支持所以這個辦法我也希望你們在兩個月之內有個檢討你們要不要把相關現在的做法可以再做一些修正而且你打砸專法修完之後這個辦法也沒修耶各位報告我們現在已經啟動相關修法程序了什麼時候會做好"},{"start":674.407,"end":690.96,"text":"現在還在徵詢各部會的意見主委 這個辦法不能再拖啦都已經上路了 AI都已經鎖人家帳戶了你們還在修辦法 好嗎好 我們剛才局長已經很明確的說明了謝謝 進速修訂了謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來請王世堅委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166129","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166129","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6ef6d41d20772122b4cd0246cdf0bd28ba14720b4e10c82cbccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:08:44 - 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T11:08:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T11:18:46+08:00","duration":602,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.934718750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.187843750000003,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.460968750000003,"end":32.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.32534375,"end":34.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.38846875,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.657843750000005,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.12909375,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.634718750000005,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.900343750000005,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.43596875,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.789718750000006,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.77659375,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.767843750000004,"end":69.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.01159375,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.66534375,"end":73.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.38659375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.58846875,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.62971875000001,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.14784375,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.22534375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.00971875,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.33846875,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.59096875,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.73159375,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.63846875000002,"end":139.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.24534375000002,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.79346875000002,"end":144.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.25284375,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.56471875,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.22659375,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.38659375,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.85909375,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.99596875,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.45909375000002,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.55596875,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.14659375000002,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.77471875,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.76159375,"end":189.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.60909375,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.57096875000002,"end":189.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.31659375,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.90284375000002,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.89846875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.81346875000003,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.30659375000002,"end":209.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.71971875000003,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.56971875000002,"end":230.42534375000002},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謝謝我們再請杜次長"},{"start":19.615,"end":37.187,"text":"上個月18號到東京跟農林水產省相關的官員做了大概三個半小時的討論就是要慎時殘渣相關的處理經驗日本做得很好有兩個方向就是家戶要減量"},{"start":38.717,"end":53.519,"text":"第二个就是事业的部分事业端包括食品工厂餐饮团散这些他们的这个分类来源非常明确由这个专业的处理业者统一回收处理变成ecofit所以从加货端"},{"start":54.7,"end":75.64,"text":"從事業端分別去處理我們去年50萬噸的的加護廚餘大概4成是經過這個養豬所以未來如果用廚餘禁止養豬的時候我們這個加護廚餘的產生一定要減量要除以減量這個在日本幾乎家家戶戶都有這個加護廚餘乾燥機"},{"start":78.603,"end":95.219,"text":"過去某些縣市有一些縣市也有做一些補助所以我應該要推廣第一個你這個食物不要浪費另外就是廚餘的處理要用比較現代化的體系要納入所謂的防疫的體系來"},{"start":97.096,"end":113.875,"text":"如果你們跟這個環境部來推動就是說家戶除以乾燥機除以你乾燥之後就變成一般的廢棄物你就可以用焚化的方式來處理所以如果每一戶家家戶戶都有家戶除於乾燥機"},{"start":115.646,"end":133.832,"text":"那你要透過補助政府的推廣或者政策上的支持就像我們節能補助一樣冷氣這些節能設備補助一樣所以我建議說農業部跟環境部可以去研究針對家戶廚餘乾燥機提出一個補助的計畫讓家戶的廚餘乾燥機深入每一個家庭"},{"start":140.327,"end":160.843,"text":"所以從加護端來看這個有效減少這個加護廚藝的產生這個次長您的看法好 謝謝委員帶回來第一線在日本看到就有關於怎麼去做e-coffee的這個回來有 還有跟你們報告嗎他其實也是學習很多謝謝委員這次讓我們同仁也一起去"},{"start":161.463,"end":184.86,"text":"那除了這個之外其實剛剛委員提到就是家戶廚餘確實是很重要你要能夠在源頭減少的話後端再處理包括我們清潔隊也好我們的那個環保人員也好其實相對壓力都會少很多所以不管是在把它乾燥化或者是鐵位這是怎麼把它處理掉我想這個應該都可以讓環境部有很好的一個參考的一個方向我想我記得大家可能也知道等於裝在一邊東西"},{"start":186.101,"end":202.668,"text":"就像經濟部他推動節能節能電器嘛 類似那樣子我們在環境部說這是一個方向希望家家戶戶自己如果能夠減少的話後端的區劃相對壓力就會少日本的經驗做得很好所以你看我們這個邊境的管制日本沒有邊境管制"},{"start":203.868,"end":223.426,"text":"好像我们现在这个要入境的时候我们不是都还有安检你这个索尼西你还在安检一次日本没有嘛对不对因为他们的事业端啊事业端的他们用这ecofit我要跟那个工型大学的川岛教授也线上做一些讨论我们那天花了三个半小时"},{"start":224.702,"end":234.902,"text":"很深入的針對他們目前的包括法律面這個政策面 執行面分成家戶端跟這個事業端來處理所以日本的經驗值得我們學習"},{"start":237.634,"end":259.865,"text":"所以未來這個Ecofit你們有沒有什麼比較具體的想法這也是一個方向但是前端並不是把現在所有的廚餘都可以拿去做飼料因為前端還是要有一些分類那有些確實可以進到像剩食 廢食 過期食品這些特定的東西才能去做飼料的話這是第一個那第二個是目前其實國內並沒有這樣子的設備所以我們就農業部來講"},{"start":262.907,"end":288.905,"text":"如果要把這些廚餘再轉換成這個飼料完整配方清除的這些可以再用的飼料這個我想我們會來試試你去跟日本做一些交流學習我們駐日有農業組有有有農業組第一線去學習他們他們已經推廣二十幾年了我們有兩個董事在那裡我知道我知道 我很熟所以我還專程跑去東京這個談了三個多小時事前準備功課"},{"start":291.164,"end":317.649,"text":"所以这部分也有帮助一个重要的政策来推动谢谢委员提醒 谢谢不是提醒这本来就你们不是我提醒之后你们才去做你们本来就应该去赶快去执行拟定一个计划从加货端怎么去减量从这个事业端怎么样去变成ecofit这日本都已经很完整的体系这个我觉得我们没有办法创新没有办法有独特的这个做法那我们去学习其他国家这个成功的经验嘛"},{"start":319.536,"end":337.288,"text":"我希望這個盡快半年之內提出一個完整的一個計畫從加護端 好好那加護端的部分我們會轉給那個環境部因為那個教練補助這一塊會在中央災害應變中心裡面處理中央災害應變中心非洲中央的中央災害應變中心我也跟左院長建議啦這個要跨部你們要開一個會議協調因為這個出於"},{"start":343.905,"end":365.556,"text":"不見得是要編列預算在你們這個農業部也可能要環境部一起合作但是一定要有一個完整的計劃出來好 謝謝委員另外這個所謂流浪 流浪犬的這個部分荷蘭荷蘭已經這個基本上已經做到了荷蘭經驗市長您了解嗎"},{"start":371.198,"end":394.496,"text":"报告委员那个先进国家的经验大概都是在所谓的源头上去做一些管理然后加上我们没有办法做到就是源头管理失灵没有彻底那别的其他国家荷兰成功为什么因为就在源头管理做得好所以你了解问题但是你要提出解决问题的做法你要怎么样做好源头管理这个市长"},{"start":396.658,"end":417.532,"text":"市長是源頭管理真的很重要因為要從那邊減少的時候才會有可能把這個遊蕩犬的數量控制下來你看2019開始就有遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫執行了6年了2019開始已經執行了6年了但是還是有民眾支持"},{"start":419.608,"end":443.881,"text":"所以你比較這個非都會區你會看到都會區大概不太可能太多的流浪犬非都會區你要去城跑你要去這個見走散步你都要提醒吊膽有些區域有些樂區所以我建議說這個部分園童管理你要提出更有效的方法那個可能是不是市長說明一下"},{"start":446.041,"end":469.429,"text":"那个跟委员报告源头管理大概有三个部分第一个就是那个宠物登记的部分第二个是那个繁殖的商业的那个管理第三个一个部分就是要求事主责任那这部分已经配套相关的一个刑责跟执法的量能去强化这一块事主的责任当然是很重要你必须要强化事主的责任嘛所以源头管理能够做得好就是要强化事主的责任嘛"},{"start":469.949,"end":490.256,"text":"所以你了解問題在提出更精進的做法另外就是說未來財政收支發放法修法之後啊從明年度開始這個動保相關的計劃經費會全部移撥地方嗎那個報告委員目前的一個處理是這樣的一個方式全部一撥個地方那地方如果財源不足呢那你這個相關的經費就沒有啦就少一半啊"},{"start":500.093,"end":528.422,"text":"這個有 有沒有什麼解決方法這一個部分 那個報告部裡面跟部長都非常重視問題也在看 跟主計談看有沒有什麼樣的一個方式去做一個處理你那個凍保業務啊 具有全國一致性的特性那你現在變成地方自己去執行這個 第一個 地方的政府的這個產生狀況這個各縣市不一樣它執行能量 效率 效果也會不同"},{"start":529.942,"end":554.911,"text":"而且長期性的政策推動也會受到影響所以這怎麼辦呢 市長你不能沉默以對啊我們再看一看 因為其實就是其實財化法之後老實講中央的預算狀況其實是有些減少我們盡量來想辦法對於需要協助的因為臨時提案比較有拘束力像臨時提案就是"},{"start":556.572,"end":575.687,"text":"希望你們一個月之內就提出具體做法不是你們回去想想看而已啊我也可以臨時提案或者在約會再提案叫你們一個月提出一個詳細的計畫這樣你們才有壓力你們壓力才有動力啊你跟我說你要回去想想看那回去想想看是你要想多久我也沒辦法約束你對不對"},{"start":577.192,"end":601.604,"text":"那很多事情這個短短時間沒辦法說明很清楚但是我作為最後的決定就是說這個我剛剛說的廚藝的部分一定要跟環境部立即有一個完整的計畫另外你針對這個採訪好修法之後你這個動保相關經費你要移破地方這個困境如何解決裡面要有完整的一個solution好好謝謝好非常感謝"}]}},{"id":"166128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6681cd5fda803710282f8c8e0c6b9e8aea14720b4e10c82cba5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:07:45 - 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請林部長有請林部長柏定 喂好我剛去美國叫巴拉圭回來國會外交鐵人行程很重要 效果很好效果不錯 對 效果蠻好的我們也看到了我們進見了巴拉圭的總統還有跟他們的"},{"start":30.792,"end":33.201,"text":"這個兩院的這個議長都有碰到外交部長他們對"},{"start":34.537,"end":60.089,"text":"我們外交部還有駐外人員表現非常肯定我先講這個好消息我們有68年的邦交你好像是7月份也去過嘛是一方面今天我要先問的第一個問題因為經過這一趟應該更確認我們的邦誼是非常穩固的雖然中國大陸那邊動作也很大巴拉圭這邊應該是穩固不會有問題"},{"start":62.249,"end":76.755,"text":"應該沒有問題吧 沒問題我這一趟去有兩個非常重要的議題第一個第一天碰到他們議長的時候眾議院議長他就提出來就是我們台灣到巴拉圭直飛的這個航線"},{"start":78.24,"end":105.82,"text":"現在太久了 那個真的繞來繞去的繞到巴西又繞過來 趕快一天的時間那現在他們從議長一直到第二天進見他們總統連總統都開口了他們希望盡快可以從台灣經過美國然後可以到巴拉圭可以直飛那在參議院議長的時候他也透露了他剛好去美國訪問他說回來的時候他沒把這個事情跟美國講了外交部開始著手在推動嗎"},{"start":108.43,"end":126.869,"text":"這個是這樣 當然航空公司有他的規劃我們跟美國其實也都很支持巴拉圭我們當然會把它當作洽談的項目因為這個涉及到包括飛美國之後再延長到巴拉圭不然現在是要轉機兩次"},{"start":130.587,"end":155.234,"text":"這個非常重要啦對於兩邊民眾的這個交流往返很重要老實講他也牽涉到國安啦對不對 這個航線一開以後對於我們在發展這個中南美洲有很大的幫助這個要趕快去促成當然這個要很具體化我們是八位立委跨黨派一起去的我們現在也在推動這個事情請外交部也趕快可能要找我們的這個包括交通部共同來談這個事情這個非常非常的重要好"},{"start":156.514,"end":179.581,"text":"那另外他還有一個很重要的就是那個他的那個台巴科技科技層我看你那邊去你這樣提的就是說要把數位帶進去嘛對不對對對我們目前跟巴拉圭啊在這個醫療上面在教育方面在經濟的交流跟合作上面我覺得是合作非常好的這榮邦計畫的示範都進行了好包括台巴智慧科技園區包括你剛講的這個HIS這個這個醫療資訊系統"},{"start":184.883,"end":202.217,"text":"就造成他們不能在南美算是最進步的我們到每個地方都有去看那現在看起來就是台巴的這個科技大學是很成功的7年 對 我們台科大跟他們幫忙逐漸建立起來那一年100個人 招生100人可能太少了"},{"start":202.777,"end":205.242,"text":"另外我為什麼講人太少就是因為我們去看了這個科技城的時候你說現在把它擴大嘛希望連數位都帶進去對不對 對那可是它真的雙手轉型 一步到位對... 要轉型可是最重要就是缺人啦"},{"start":215.646,"end":235.82,"text":"人才很重要所以我們現在為什麼台商開始投資巴拉圭就是因為您講的台巴科技大學七年然後現在已經有三年有畢業生雖然遇到疫情可是他現在的考試入取率是十分之一成為巴拉圭成為南美裡面數一數二的好學校所以不是只有招一百個人可以適度再增加所以我們今天訴求我們來研議推動我是訴求非常具體第一個就是台巴的經過美國指揮航線趕快要促成這是第一個"},{"start":242.205,"end":264.103,"text":"那台八的這個科技層你說變成數位科技層那擴大趕快多包括這個人才培訓方面要多增加好不好好 好 來那我上次質詢的特別問了一個點就是跟美國高關稅已經快定案了那上次我質詢說你有說要回去轉達我們要爭取的要降低這個逆差很重要就是買我們台灣要的嘛那就是核能啊美國一直在講說要賣給我們核能對不對包括核味料都要處理啊"},{"start":272.148,"end":295.674,"text":"我是台美國會議員聯誼會的副會長是那美國那邊也表達信息說必要的時候他們都邀我們國會議員我們相關人都要實力去看他們說美國那邊都很他們這段時間核電廠嚴厲得非常非常多大概一年半兩年就嚴厲了沒有像我們台灣什麼到現在說還要搞不好還搞到三年四年然後人家有技術包括核威力都已經開口AIT的處長都開口也跟你講過了嘛 對不對你後來有去轉達了嘛有有沒有一些新的進度"},{"start":301.96,"end":307.601,"text":"促成雙方面主管機關的交流還有護法 都有這個要盡量再去促成這對我們降低對美國的逆差降低我們的關稅現在20加N啊又可以買到我們要的我們現在需要充分的電比較低廉的電美國又開口了連國會議員都要邀請我們去看了這個要快好不好我一個比較敏感你在國安會應該也有建議嘛對不對"},{"start":329.703,"end":348.039,"text":"台美在能源上面的合作不管是投資或採購都是現在重要的項目我一個比較敏感的媒體怎麼會報導說你連國安會有時候都進不去啊開會不讓你進 沒有吧不會 我記得去有發生過這個事嗎你會去開國安會議因為有時候是有部長有時候有次長看他那個是那個什麼會誰出席"},{"start":348.86,"end":366.779,"text":"他們一直在講你跟吳釗燮的關係有發生之後你去開國安會他們不讓你進去開國安會嗎應該沒有吧 沒有沒有喔 你要鄭重澄清喔還是有 有過 有過的話誤會我是抱歉說這行為也知道不太可能的事情 沒有啦我們來談一個最近很重要的就是中日的中日的這個關係它裡面"},{"start":370.854,"end":386.952,"text":"中日開始發生緊張的時候川普跟習近平通了電話後來川普又打了電話給這個高市早苗對你現在判斷中日這個關係的惡化是已經降溫了還是在升溫當中對台灣有什麼影響"},{"start":389.736,"end":405.374,"text":"我們希望說台海的和平跟穩定當然也跟中日的互動是有關係啦所以這件事情其實各方應該都是想要能夠把它管控不要變成一個失控的一個衝突的事件啦"},{"start":405.894,"end":420.46,"text":"但是每個人也都有我想內部包括你看現在高市早苗的民調支持度這麼高七成五以上他也言所當然他也是堅持啊那可是那習近平對不對他也有他"},{"start":421.24,"end":440.601,"text":"可能內政的考量他對外也有必須要展現他這個中國的這個領導人的這個形象吧所以我是說這個衝突對任何人都沒有好處那台灣也是我們也是希望能夠這個"},{"start":443.704,"end":462.664,"text":"這個事情能夠冷卻下來所以你看我們的表達都是比較柔性的啊國際也很肯定啊日方他們也覺得這樣的表達是很適合那中方呢這個我想他也了解我們並沒有想要趁這個機會好像去把這個事件去怎麼樣升高衝突或什麼"},{"start":463.291,"end":471.778,"text":"高市早苗幫我們台灣講話這當然是好的啦當然是好的他民調雖然可是他民調國內雖然是高現在高達7成5可是你看哲倫斯基當初在剛這個烏鵝戰爭剛開戰了9成多欸可是現在是生靈塗炭啦我問你最重要的是說在高市早苗丟出來台灣有事 日本有事中日關係開始升溫的時候如果再這樣惡化下去對台灣會有什麼樣的影響如果再繼續惡化"},{"start":490.074,"end":501.694,"text":"因為中共對我們他現在對日本做以前都對我們做過而且現在一直在做而且新常態不斷的變本加厲所以我們整天都在承受中共的文攻武嚇我們就是要"},{"start":503.643,"end":526.673,"text":"要和平靠力量台灣要展現自我防禦的這個決心跟能力至於說外交上怎麼樣跟理念相近國家一起去面對中國崛起的威脅特別是軍事擴張這已經不是所謂台灣問題是兩岸問題現在是中國成為全世界的問題那在印太第一島鏈大家必須要共同"},{"start":527.593,"end":534.155,"text":"怎麼樣能夠來管控現在最重要是如果中日的關係現在第一個程式是你要判斷它到底是已經降溫了對不對是高市長把話已經吞回去嗎向後轉嗎還是兩邊繼續是在衝突我跟委員報告這是第一個第一個到底在升溫還是已經降溫這是一個那第二更重要站在台灣的立場保護人民的這個安全安居樂業現在你要建立總統或者國人要怎麼樣台灣人民要做什麼事情好 時間的關係部長請檢要回答"},{"start":558.023,"end":584.218,"text":"簡單講啦 就是說其實習近平他也知道說這個事情他跟過去發生包括釣魚台的這個事件這個日本政府把他國有化他當時是在中國大陸裡面是有群眾集會抗議喔他在這些這個軍事這個行動上也比現在激烈喔所以我們也必須要去密切觀察講的跟做的然後這個情形因為身高衝突以這個情形這個階段來講並不符合啊"},{"start":587.18,"end":609.814,"text":"我想包括日本的利益也包括中國的利益我認為我們台灣可以扮演一個就是能夠促進區域和平穩定的很正面的力量我們是很熟的朋友啊你這個事情非常重要啦國安單位跟外交單位外交部一定要密切的注意好不好你可以的話你給我一個簡單的你應該我們以前常有那個嘛寫一個簡單的評估注意一下好不好好 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當時黃次長您也在現場那我們萬華區東原國小哨棒隊的駱振宇教練也就是剛剛代表台灣拿下世界威廉波特哨棒冠軍隊伍的駱振宇教練他當時提到說因為過去他是計劃教練"},{"start":68.553,"end":93.031,"text":"他不是專任教練那麼在這一次奪牌之後呢我們地方政府 台北市政府就有在跟學校討論可以再給學校再一個專任教練的名額所以他很有機會就可以來轉任專任教練但是以我們現行的制度他如果轉任了專任教練不採集他之前的年資他已經服務了10年了"},{"start":94.164,"end":112.366,"text":"所以等於他的實際上的薪資收入是會倒退而減少的這不只是不公平的待遇這形同於是我們在對一位在基層一直在燃燒熱情努力付出的教練形成我們在否定他們的努力"},{"start":113.567,"end":131.216,"text":"那麼當時部長承諾我說會來盤點監討我們整個基層專任教練的制度但是我今天要具體的來跟次長討論事實上我認為我剛剛講的這個是他之前計畫教練就他一樣是由我們政府公部門單位"},{"start":132.817,"end":160.295,"text":"所來聘任的教練他現在是轉任的專任教練像這種銜接值錢年資採集的問題其實專任教練不是獨有的在教師專任教師過去就有相關的討論以及處遇的辦法這個我們目前在專任教師裡面如果像這種值錢年資採集例如說他之前可能是在其他的公務機關或是甚至這個軍隊只要是公務部門"},{"start":161.095,"end":167.687,"text":"但是他一旦轉任專任教師之後他的實錢年資採計是如何計算這個次長你有沒有了解我了解這個東西是這樣子"},{"start":170.287,"end":195.133,"text":"有没有办法采集我们从我们运动部的角度我们当然希望能够采集但是因为这件事情牵涉到地方因为当他转任成为教育人员他就要纳入地方政府的教育人员的整个体制里面去他的薪资我们在这边同意了其实只是我们开支票地方买单这个东西容许我们跟地方政府跟教育部一起来讨论因为不是单面运动部说要怎么样就可以怎么样的"},{"start":195.293,"end":214.486,"text":"教練跟教師都一樣一定是中央跟地方實際執行是地方政府嘛要來好好的討論要能夠來執行所以我今天就是跟次長講你要去了解這個教師的制度呢我們目前依照我們教師待遇條例第九條教師他的執行年資就是有採集的"},{"start":216.046,"end":242.699,"text":"那麼不管他之前任職的是公務員、公營事業員工、政務官、研究人員、軍隊都可以納入年資採記這個跟你們教練是一樣的這個一樣是地方政府在做敘心跟原額通通是一樣的那再來今年8月開始連代理教師他的職業年資都可以採記也就是說現在如果來擔任我們專任教練這我們政府聘用的"},{"start":243.649,"end":252.295,"text":"他的待遇是比代理教師還不如做我們運動的專任教練他的待遇比代理教師還不如"},{"start":253.356,"end":273.881,"text":"他已經默默的付出 努力了10年的支線連資竟然你們通通不採集一筆勾銷砍到零從零開始練我認為這非常的不合理那麼已經有具體的方案其實我們真的是可以來學習因為這個也有多所討論代理教師啊 這個至少我跟你講不用修法"},{"start":274.941,"end":302.143,"text":"今年八月開始執行教育部怎麼做呢他就是處理定定的一個辦法所以我今天具體的建議請我們運動部和次長回去趕快研究這個方案次長你也認同我們應該要給基層教練合理的待遇那麼我們今天就單獨在討論專任教練因為整個制度很複雜很多還要去盤整也有約聘教練也有外聘教練等等但我今天講的就是專任教練是地方政府原格已經開出來了我們不應該讓有"},{"start":303.664,"end":316.631,"text":"任何一個基層教練他因為要來擔任我們政府的專任教練 既然他過去10年也是在我們公部機關服務的這個教練的年資通通歸零 不採季了"},{"start":318.505,"end":334.043,"text":"這我覺得非常的不合理 也不應該發生那麼趕快來去研議其實我看過 這不用修法你們去訂定辦法 應當可以來處理我們趕快來研議 可不可以承諾我們來跟地方政府討論因為的確是要由地方政府去定這個運動好 那趕快開始討論我們不容易幫他去"},{"start":334.463,"end":353.016,"text":"好 再來呢就是我們現在在推全民運動那麼我上上個月也舉辦了猛假背桌球推廣賽當時次長跟我們署長都有出席呢那你們兩位出席的正好是我們學童組的賽事這次這個比賽呢是由我們萬華的桌球委員會所發起那由中華民國運動與休閒協會來主辦"},{"start":356.158,"end":380.511,"text":"所以它是來自社區那同時邀請全民我們是區域型賽事但是我們的這個報名辦法是邀請全國的民眾一起來報名參與的所以這個隊伍是來自各個縣市所以我認為這個其實就是我們在推動的全民運動可是我們看一下全運署的網頁這個對於全民運動我們現在列出來的是第一個它叫做體適能推廣第二個它叫做社區運動俱樂部這兩個樣態"},{"start":383.294,"end":405.832,"text":"來 次長您決定來參加這個蒙甲杯桌球推廣賽它屬於這兩項哪一種呢它應該屬於社區俱樂部型的它也不只社區俱樂部喔它裡面很多是學校學童組很多都是學校的校隊所以我認為你們這個樣態其實要再多元像我們這一種是地方型區域型的盃賽但是它裡面第一個"},{"start":406.533,"end":412.016,"text":"他是全齡的 我們年紀最長的78歲 年紀最輕的6歲所以是全齡運動再來他有學校的校隊他有我們在社區裡面長青隊伍他有甚至我們立法院的這個中球隊 我們公共車司機還有我們的同仁 他們也報了一隊立法院隊也去參加 我是領隊"},{"start":426.503,"end":451.15,"text":"所以這其實完全是全民運動所以我覺得你們這個應該要增加像這種區域型的賽事因為呢過去你們我看你們在補助全民運動裡面其實主要有兩個項目一種是像單項協會那一種呢是社區俱樂部事實上像這一種它是運動社團法人所主辦跟推廣的它其實也很容易去觸及到我們全民運動這一個層面所以我希望未來我們在全民運動推廣上"},{"start":452.29,"end":470.747,"text":"委员容许我给你们报告一下我们的确是要往俱乐部的方向来走但是因为现行的法规我们没有办法做但是我们的确是在思考我们应该是在明年年初就会把这一个补助的方案可以到地方的这种区域型的单位去处理否则"},{"start":471.428,"end":488.767,"text":"有一个人说我是单位就认了就要补助这个很困难我们势必要有一个系统让人家去登记说我是可以被补助的对象这个部分的法现在的法规目前全民署正在拟定我们看到的这个问题以现行的状况没有办法下去那是不对的我们往那边去来努力"},{"start":489.307,"end":506.121,"text":"沒錯 這非常重要因為我們運動部成立很重要一個任務就是要推廣全民運動那麼民間其實已經推廣全民運動多年了它可能藏在我們社會社區各個角落所以我們運動部 權運署我們要來善用民間的資源讓我們可以更快速更深度的來推廣全民運動"},{"start":507.162,"end":526.26,"text":"我们在推动一些地方的俱乐部的时候我们就发现到这个问题了在九月底的时候就发现了所以持续的在检讨看看如何可以把政府的这种补助的资源到地方的团体里面去好 谢谢方言主席给我三十秒的时间就是我要关切的是我们这个运动性品"},{"start":527.16,"end":548.134,"text":"我們通常都會拿單因性別比例要達到三分之一做標準但是在我們的亞奧運單項協會裡面目前在理事會他的這個比例有達標比例不到兩成在監事會有達標比例不到四成所以這個非常的不足那麼你們今天有提出報告第一個你們希望修法第二個你們要行政輔導那我已經有提出修法的法案了就修我們國體法"},{"start":549.295,"end":571.271,"text":"所以我是希望這個會期可以通過但就算這個會期趕不及你們運動部什麼時候草案報怨這個會期可不可以報怨應該我們同仁昨天跟我講這個部分已經馬上要進行預告了預告完之後聽聽各方的意見之後我們可以捏進具體的辦法送到行政院好 因為我有提案我想這教委會委員都高度的有共識所以我希望你們可以盡速來進行好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"166145","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166145","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d690a8e0a99bb853c982f8c8e0c6b9e8aea14720b4e10c82cb123a4db8f526838d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"11:35:07 - 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麻煩部長請林部長部長早上好我常常講其實如果我們國家找一個部會是天天在打仗的話其實應該是外交部不見得是國防部不管是駐外人員或在台灣24小時當班的大家辛苦早上我聽到現在其實有點感想"},{"start":25.791,"end":48.733,"text":"我們常常感覺到中國天天威脅那我沒有看到有些人要求我們要求中國要有態度倒是現在中國要求圍堵日本現在在台灣要求我們的政府好像跟著圍堵日本中國傳染病沒辦法治療的一堆現在要我們提醒我們的遊客日本有流感這相當有意思那"},{"start":50.924,"end":76.379,"text":"國際上我們台灣有機會的時候要美國把態度拿出來可是天天都在質疑美國可是唯獨傷害台灣的中國從來沒有看到苛責或譴責這個是台灣的特殊現象我還是回到我們的主題啦兩個選舉牽動到地緣政治一個是聖文森聖文森的新民主黨完成大選大概也在11月底"},{"start":77.304,"end":97.252,"text":"那我看到台湾的媒体报导说这一个在野党赢得大选之后他们的总裁他们的主席他名字取得很好God Win Friday我看到这个名字我还在多查几次这个上帝会赢然后Thanks God It's Friday那他会接总理"},{"start":98.191,"end":124.488,"text":"已經接了 對 接總理那接總理的時候大家都質疑說新民主黨好像曾經主張要跟中國建立邦交但我去查了 我不知道我查了對不對事實上這一個在野黨說要主張邦交的是上一個黨魁那是在2016年就外交部掌握的資訊目前我們跟盛文森的邦交以及新任的總理對"},{"start":125.529,"end":127.938,"text":"台聖之間的邦交關係是什麼態度"},{"start":129.562,"end":152.739,"text":"我們的大使已經去進見新的總理也遞送我們賴總統的賀函他也表示感謝請我們大使傳達至於委員真的是關鍵很多人把2016短暫任期的一個總裁而且這個黨魁其實不一樣而且他在社會上沒有得到支持是現在這個Friday他其實從競選期間都沒有去對"},{"start":157.102,"end":184.219,"text":"所謂台灣中國這個問題上我就是想要聽到外交部做這樣子的分析也就是說大家說聖文森危險了選舉就把他跟洪都拉斯類比其實我有一個基本態度不要以為選舉的語言馬上可以變成外交的紅利沒那麼容易地緣政治也沒有那麼單純但聖文森的NDP這個新民主黨上一次表達要跟中國所謂的建立邦交是在2016"},{"start":187.261,"end":197.787,"text":"2016小學六年級的小朋友都讀大學了那個是蠻長一段時間那現在這個Friday呢他在選舉當中曾經有人質問他對中國的態度他不表態"},{"start":198.997,"end":215.091,"text":"他不表態而且中國下了重本他還是不表態所以我覺得外交部對這邊當然要審慎的去密切的觀察而我們跟盛文森是建立在理念相近台灣不花大錢買邦交國我們是真實去關心這個國家達到雙贏那剛才好幾個委員問到了事實上"},{"start":218.274,"end":240.421,"text":"邦交的狀態有很多維繫的方法其中元首外交出訪外交是一個重要的方式因為它不僅是維繫的方式元首能夠出訪能夠到那一國其實也是一個政治上外交上的表態那就外交部現在有沒有規劃我們賴清德總統出訪邦交國"},{"start":242.726,"end":266.46,"text":"我們當然都有在評估因為我們的邦交國分散在不同州比如說我們去年是安排賴總統所謂的智慧永續繁榮南島之旅那就是三個邦交國那其他現在還沒有到訪的當然包括加勒比海跟中南美洲另外非洲等等所以委員提到的這個都在我們的規劃當中有規劃中我問一個問題"},{"start":269.261,"end":281.115,"text":"你們認為出訪的最佳時機點是在2026年的1月2月3月4月5月6月我列這6個月這個季度會不會是適合的時候"},{"start":282.818,"end":306.063,"text":"第一個各國他們都有自己的內政或有節慶或是什麼樣的大型活動那當然有時候過去有就職典禮但是現在我更直接一點就是人家總理就職嘛那對盛文森來講是一個喜事嘛還有我們的包括建交幾週年啊或一般的國事訪問也都有訪問盛文森最佳的時機明年初會不會是個好的時間點"},{"start":308.304,"end":327.872,"text":"我想都是好時機啦因為對我們邦交國來講特別是在因為加勒比海有三加一國我想三加一國是三聖再加海地海地現在情況還是比較混亂你如果要安排去海地我個人一定堅決反對這個安全考量對但我現在是要講說因為如果去三聖去這些國家"},{"start":328.991,"end":356.254,"text":"那過境美國是必然那過境美國有很多選擇像我們12月3號華航成為全亞洲第一個直飛太陽城鳳凰 鳳凰城鳳凰城 太陽城他們球隊鳳凰城那鳳凰城是亞利桑那我們有我們有國軍在那邊受訓那紐約也不錯紐約也不錯就是說我覺得國人關心的就是我們元首外交要發揮到恰到好處在"},{"start":358.015,"end":378.912,"text":"川普跟台灣的對等關稅即將conclusion應該已經接近要揭露的時候那我們的邦交國也選出新的在野黨當選總理那事實上也是值得強化維持關係的穩定那外交部在短期內有沒有可能安排總統出訪我最後這個問題要請教你"},{"start":381.194,"end":396.548,"text":"因為現在是12月嘛因為聖誕節剛過然後聖誕節到了其實這個時候各國的情形都是比較忙碌於農曆年前有沒有可能農曆年前有沒有機會這都不能排除但並沒有決定說是什麼時候"},{"start":397.598,"end":417.836,"text":"決定的是美國的規格還是盛文森我們要到訪國家他們的安排因為他們的元首或者因為這個涉及到因為總理的這個國家比較不是一個正式這麼大的就職典禮總統是啦不管是瓜地馬拉或巴拉圭所以這個都涉及到到訪國他的適當的時機的安排"},{"start":420.038,"end":432.265,"text":"我相信我們倆都樂見越早越好農曆年前的話其實是個不錯的選擇謝謝委員的建議下一題我們來到宏都拉斯宏都拉斯現在國會是128席90席"},{"start":435.327,"end":459.534,"text":"右派的兩個政黨聯盟取得他不只是達到修憲的86席的門檻他可以決定等於是宏都拉斯所有的重大決策所以國會是一個面向他們現在總統的開票第一名跟第二名這個Esfura跟這個Nasrallah兩個人好像差0.02%差幾千票而已現在開票已經到最後結果了嗎"},{"start":460.405,"end":481.722,"text":"還沒有最後結果那第三名大概確定第三名第三名不會有什麼改變了啦因為開票已經六十幾趴了第三名大概那個十幾趴追不上來了那就可以想見現在是右派親美親台的政黨控制三分之二的國會席次"},{"start":482.731,"end":505.058,"text":"而一二名在競逐最後總統結果兩位都是親美親台派當然第一名那個是川普總統直接助選的那我們當然不用急得過度樂觀在外交上做表態但我要請教外交部 外交部其實你們都有很多套劇本目前是不是已經至少跟國會端有沒有展開接觸了"},{"start":507.901,"end":532.582,"text":"個別的國會議員當然因為其實洪都拉斯跟台灣斷交也才兩三年的時間都有很多聯繫往來的關係那剛剛講這兩位領先的總統候選人我們也都有溝通互動的機會他們有沒有提出在長遠的經濟理念合作上的想法來尋求跟我們的共識"},{"start":533.803,"end":541.37,"text":"我想大方向他們對台灣模式尤其我們的榮邦計畫當然現在是很了解也覺得是聽說他們有興趣我的意思是說"},{"start":543.222,"end":562.494,"text":"我們兩個都算記過嘛他在選舉要開什麼支票要幹嘛的時候他一定要確保說可行性嘛所以我再詢問的是這兩位總統這個潛在的可能當選人以及國會的前兩大主要政黨控制90席跟我們國家外交部相關單位有沒有在選舉前選舉後展開接觸"},{"start":565.535,"end":579.101,"text":"選舉前是都有互動啦也都有我想對於這個因為他們也是公開的表達要跟台灣會晤邦交嘛我們當然會主動去聯繫可是要具體的方案要等到他開票票開完"},{"start":581.344,"end":593.794,"text":"總統當選這個時候就排紅合作的項目因為他施政的重點是什麼那我們跟他的合作的項目你們有沒有派比較高階的外交官現在進駐到紅國"},{"start":596.445,"end":624.301,"text":"我們沒有辦法在洪都拉斯因為我們現在那邊沒有這個設代表處我們現在還有人在那裡嗎並沒有正式的因為我們沒有NGO的模式我們是應該講說以這個區域中美洲來講我們都持續有專人他們現在監俠是由哪一國監俠瓜地馬拉來監俠洪都拉斯所以我們現在有沒有人在洪都拉斯委員這個就是說我當然不方便這樣講但是應該是保持很好的溝通互動"},{"start":625.967,"end":647.924,"text":"因為美國通過台北法案的時候就把他們的外交工具箱的工具跟我們台灣的外交箱的工具綁在一起來維繫邦交擴展外交這個是當時通過相當好的法案現在美國跟台灣有沒有就紅國的局勢根據這個台北法案展開相關的合作的初期的計畫"},{"start":648.664,"end":677.315,"text":"其實台美在第三國關係不管是外交或者是經貿其實都有持續在就是說討論嘛那以這個Marco Rubio國務卿他到了瓜地馬拉他就肯定他跟台灣維持邦交他在召集很多中美洲或阿拉伯海的時候的一些會議也都是這樣子講那當然這個也會起一些比較正面的鼓勵的效果美台已經基於美國正式通過生效的"},{"start":678.075,"end":690.262,"text":"台北法案 其實它全名是台灣什麼外交關係強化法案 縮寫是台北法案已經基於這個法案台灣跟美國之間就洪都拉斯的局勢有進行一些初期的"},{"start":691.172,"end":716.412,"text":"的溝通合作我們台美之間都有針對第三國的關係的發展進行溝通這個是重要訊息因為事實上美國川普總統現在非常重視中南美這一塊重視到都派航母在加勒比海所以這一塊其實是他重視的重點那我最後一個問題要請教是以宏都拉斯來看我們台灣應該要看誰是下一個宏都拉斯"},{"start":717.133,"end":726.778,"text":"宏都拉斯為什麼會產生這麼大的政治的變局來自於第一個經濟的問題而經濟的問題來自於中國不僅承諾了支票跳票"},{"start":727.915,"end":754.32,"text":"而且還大量的倒貨把生產過剩的東西倒貨回去害當地國家中小企業整個崩盤這是宏都拉斯模式也就是中國承諾跳票經濟下行第二個其實潛在的因素是美國跟這個國家的關注度跟關心程度以及台灣過去跟他們在經貿合作上的關係這三個指標如果把它撈出來呢我這個表其實沒有寫全部啦齁"},{"start":755,"end":776.682,"text":"除了宏都拉斯巴拿馬巴拿馬現在有基礎建設停擺美國警告巴拿馬不可以把運河讓中國的公司接管所以巴拿馬也跟中國解約了解放軍不可以到那裡所以巴拿馬符合我剛才講三個指標裡面的兩個聖多美我就不多談了其他一個國家薩爾瓦多"},{"start":778.387,"end":795.735,"text":"薩爾瓦多Rubio親自到那裡薩爾瓦多用美金薩爾瓦多現在主要的外匯來源包含接收美國的重刑犯來自於美國所以我們我們台灣的外交部有沒有去評估這樣子的變局下一個宏都拉斯可能是哪一國"},{"start":797.422,"end":807.746,"text":"我們當然都在評估也都會為未來發展關係做準備不過目前外面看到因為洪都拉斯大選巴拉馬斯剛選過去年就是今年"},{"start":815.974,"end":841.657,"text":"巴拿馬是去年嘛巴拿馬去年選舉對對 去年啦那哥斯大黎加是明年2月所以這選舉時程會影響到哥斯大黎加派了情報人員來台灣做情報訓練嘛當然是台美哥斯大黎加巴拿馬這次9個國務院出國出國前還發新聞說中國叫他們不要來這個都是一些跡象那我講具體一點我最後這個問題就收尾啦薩爾瓦多"},{"start":842.884,"end":849.804,"text":"原來的薩爾瓦多市的市長他在選舉的時候就說他當選要跟台灣恢復邦交"},{"start":851.288,"end":875.356,"text":"他那時候認為他去挑戰執政者說你們這個背棄台灣是錯誤的決策換他當選了而薩爾瓦多後來川普總統2.0的時候跟薩爾瓦多簽訂了協議所以他外匯來源現在主要靠美國那薩爾瓦多這一個現任的總統有沒有表達跟台灣進行更深一點更高層次一點的互動就你的了解有沒有"},{"start":877.279,"end":903.941,"text":"就想 我想選舉時候的這個意見跟選後的作為因為中共也會失利嘛所以我們這種外交上面的情形除了雙邊關係也涉及到第三方包括美國的角色 確實但是我們怎麼樣提供一個好的模式也就是我們現在在推龍幫計畫我們不是用什麼其他過去大量的援助而是用怎麼樣去部長我的意思是說薩爾瓦多我們還有人在那裡嘛"},{"start":905.322,"end":932.611,"text":"我們也沒有代表處在那裡比如中美洲當然中美洲有一些集體的包括中美洲銀行或其他的我們還是有些人員跟人脈在那裡啦有 人脈是有那用什麼形式留我們就不在這邊討論但我的意思是說Rubio重視薩爾瓦多親自跑了那一趟然後才去瓜地馬拉誇獎瓜地馬拉跟台灣的邦交維持是一個正確的模式然後美國簽了一些約一些資源在那個地方"},{"start":933.211,"end":944.851,"text":"而就我們了解薩爾瓦多的總統當選後也有曾經表達一些想法所以我的意思是說我們外交部就薩爾瓦多目前的狀況有沒有什麼可以跟納稅人報告的一句話"},{"start":946.488,"end":967.988,"text":"中美洲我們是當作整個區域因為這是川普政府重視西半球可是我們先鞏固瓜貝兩國然後現在就是有選舉產生新政府的我們當然會如果他有意願我們是會積極來跟他談所以薩爾瓦多的部分就是容我這裡就不方便正式的對外說明"},{"start":968.729,"end":986.74,"text":"但是他是整個區域我們都一併考慮的我們當然很多戰線但你知道嗎我們的防守面現在比較小中國的防守面比較大所以有這些訊息的揭露有時候換他們疲於奔命也不是壞事啦但是我們原來外交都多交理念相近的朋友"},{"start":987.2,"end":1010.582,"text":"不要撒大錢撒大幣去買邦交我們不幹這個事但在有機會的時候千萬不要因為害怕我們多了一個更深層更高階的關係所以中國採取報復式根本不要擔心這個因為你什麼都沒做他照樣要摧毀你的邦交關係所以那個顧慮是不用的我只要提醒這一點對那至於其他這些相近的國家有機會請外交部加油好不好好 謝謝我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"166144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6d1f7f90e16d7f1aa09a18256bf6bdfeba14720b4e10c82cb35d124a0c032b89f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:42:09 - 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"start":83.018,"end":107.154,"text":"本行非常重的一個刑期但法官在裁的時候就說這個跟現實上的狀況有點不太相合也就是說現實上的狀況他其實並沒有因為這樣賺了什麼大錢他也不是詐騙他也沒有騙人家的錢他只是賺了一點陰偷小利所以連續減刑了兩次後來讓這兩個人可以緩刑那我就覺得蠻奇怪的就是說如果我們法規修正很嚴格但是最後法官在執行的時候卻開了後門這樣不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":107.634,"end":124.391,"text":"制度上有沒有可以再優化的地方但後來我又發現也有不一樣的案子啊比如說最近這個在延遲這個限制出海的這個吳承林案經手一百多億元史上最大的地下會隊的案子不乏所得是九千多萬同樣是地下會隊有人是迎頭小利有人是龐大的巨利"},{"start":124.751,"end":139.367,"text":"那在同一套的法規下面我如果放鬆了好像會縱放了這些大額所得的這群人我如果抓得很嚴格然後又要讓那個迎頭小利的人要用特殊的方法比如說減刑或什麼方法來做處理所以我覺得法規上面有些"},{"start":139.867,"end":165.917,"text":"有一些疑義所以在地下會對的部分我們雖然提了一個版本但我們希望聽一聽行政機關的意見看看怎麼樣有辦法讓這個法制上做完善的這個討論嘛那我想無非兩個方向第一個是違法吸金要不要在現行的法官我們再加重讓純粹的吸金行為因為吸金基本上帶著詐騙這個方才在內政委員會修正詐房條例的時候也拉高了相關的刑度啦這我們希望可以再因為這應該是要同步進行的"},{"start":166.297,"end":187.254,"text":"如果針對違法吸金的行為要進行徹底的打擊的話本期認為即便現在七年以上達到一定的時候都還不夠應該繼續往上加這一點聽聽金管會的意見第二有關於地下會對這種個案差異非常大然後他很有可能跟洗錢房子要掛鉤的這個狀況的時候我們要怎麼樣來做討論跟設計可以讓這個制度更加的完整我聽一下金管會的意見是 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謝謝主席有請次長跟司長好 我們請兩位"},{"start":18.296,"end":35.059,"text":"兩位早安其實講到動物保護這件事情台灣雖然起步比較慢因為到現在為止我們的動保法其實差不多是40年左右這樣子的一個進程但是其實我們也看到一步一步的在往前前進那這次的這個動保法的修法我也提出了很多的版本但是其實我"},{"start":35.299,"end":58.776,"text":"一直不斷地在強調不論是什麼樣的品種不論是什麼樣的一個動物的生命不管是陪伴動物也好 競技動物也好實驗動物也好 爬蟲類也好異種的管理 源頭管理非常的重要但是在源頭管理沒有辦法落地來落實的時候其實我們中間還有好長的一段路要走那尤其是現在又跟過去的整個所有的整體環境又不一樣了"},{"start":59.296,"end":79.672,"text":"現在數位平台的發展是遠超乎我們的想像所以在整個所有的數位平台當中是不是也存在著所謂的虐待動物甚至是黑市的這樣子的一個狀況存在那我想今天就幾個問題我們來提醒一下就是不管是我們的農業部也好"},{"start":79.992,"end":104.675,"text":"或者是甚至接下來可能抒發部或者是我們的NCC可能這個部分我們要怎麼樣來跨部會來做更強烈的一些規範好那我先提到喔很多人在講說山豬釣到底山豬釣釣的真的只有山豬嗎那現在其實我們這個在網路上隨便搜尋幾百塊錢的這樣子的一個工具是隨時都看得到"},{"start":105.075,"end":126.786,"text":"他只要換了所謂的這個關鍵字他其實就可以模糊這樣的一個焦點那在平台上面來做販售他已經直接危害到不管是我們的野生或者是保育類動物甚至於貓犬等等像這一類的這個列據是完全無法可管好這是第一個問題我想點出來的第二個問題"},{"start":128.588,"end":142.3,"text":"現在在網路上面流竄的還有很多食品安全的危害的問題我所謂的食品安全的問題是包含他是自製的不管是鮮食也好或者是風乾過後的一些產品也好他分裝成所謂的寵物食品在網路上做販售但是呢他沒有成分的檢驗也沒有產品的責任險等等"},{"start":154.851,"end":182.389,"text":"這些我們應該要怎麼樣才有法可管這個是第二個問題再來第三個就是我一直不斷的在關心私繁的問題私人繁殖場非法繁殖場有特寵症的人人犬舍都會出事更何況是私繁的問題現在也潛藏在整個所有的網路平台不管是利用IG也好用LINE也好他們其實都在做這樣子的私繁的一個延伸"},{"start":183.369,"end":197.56,"text":"這個部分我們常常只有追究所謂的行為人強調行為人的責任但是平台的責任誰要來管我們是不是可以負起這樣子的一個監管的一個責任這是第三個問題"},{"start":198.4,"end":213.625,"text":"再來第四個問題包含我們看到茶器的死角販售也好交換資訊的一個溫床有沒有可能讓網路平台已經成為了我們是無法可以監管就算我們看得到抓不到"},{"start":213.985,"end":241.141,"text":"或者是抓得到其實為時已經晚了這個部分我想請教一下這個農業部或者是我們的動保司我們平台要不要負起該負的責任那麼這個我把問題點出來今天因為時間上的一個關係包含我們動物風險的一些所謂的品項我們應該要有非常嚴格的審查的一個制度然後再來包含列具食品的安全保健品等等"},{"start":241.781,"end":263.15,"text":"甚至活體的動物在線上在做平台的交換或者是買賣這個我們要不要追究平台的責任我們應該要怎麼管我想修法的路很長啊雖然在動保法我提了非常多的版本我也跟這個我們的司長跟副司長我們討論過非常多次也接收到很多的民間的團體對我們的請託但是我想再次的強調不論動物是誰"},{"start":269.093,"end":296.341,"text":"不論任何品種我們都希望保護動物這件事情是台灣我們每一個人大家都有的共識即便我們看到綠獵蜥很多人說他們是爬蟲類爬蟲類也是生命啊我們看到就算他不是冷血動物他是變溫動物他反手被綁他繁殖過量源頭沒有管制被一隻隻像烤肉串串起來被獵殺他說數量多了我們就來殺"},{"start":297.541,"end":312.854,"text":"這不是我們愛動物尊重動物尊重生命的一種態度我想今天我就提到這邊很抱歉因為今天時間有限沒有讓兩位來做回答我想事後我們還有很多的時間可以坐下來好好的面對動物保護在台灣的一些問題好嗎好謝謝兩位謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166139","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166139","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d63919c4e963b25ef74cd0246cdf0bd28ba14720b4e10c82cb74ad0faf363c552f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:33:24 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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T11:33:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T11:39:44+08:00","duration":380,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.51471875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.11659375,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":31.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.127218750000004,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.89784375,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.204093750000006,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.08159375,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.92909375,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.28721875,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.94471875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.75034375,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.39971875,"end":71.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.44159375000001,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.41971875,"end":78.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.49534375,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.28846875,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.29659375,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.08096875000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.95784375000001,"end":91.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.18971875000001,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.99971875,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.25284375000001,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.71221875,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.76659375000001,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.67784375000001,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.62284375,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.22596875,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.76159375,"end":105.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.83721875,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.15659375000001,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.12221875,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.31596875000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.96971875000001,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.18471875,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.57284375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.78596875,"end":145.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.49034375000002,"end":138.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.37096875,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.94034375,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.10034375,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.93971875,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.67659375000002,"end":164.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.54971875,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.50659375,"end":175.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.57409375,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.59409375,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.42471875,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.79034375,"end":195.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.69659375,"end":197.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.42221875},{"speake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其實以前有談過"},{"start":44.921,"end":71.266,"text":"但是這被重視的程度沒那麼高就是美國的東西來台灣特別是融產品那我諮詢過相關的部會所長他們都是特別是這個台灣代表都有提到美國真的很希望去全世界各國他們的產品的面臨到關稅越低越好最好是0所以我就問你簡單的問題"},{"start":74.622,"end":89.085,"text":"美方如果要求他來的農產品全面零關稅,我們的農業會蓋進去嗎?美方會有他的期待,我們也要保護自己的...保護你保護不了啊,你知道雞腿磅20%,20%雞腿磅"},{"start":99.741,"end":112.361,"text":"牛肉 這裡面大概10幾%相關的牛肉片 關稅都在那裡這影響 影響農民很大 所以這個這方面我看到我看到農業部"},{"start":114.212,"end":139.384,"text":"沒有太大聲音耶你這樣說我要保護保護要怎麼保護你要說我絕對反對絕對反對美國領關稅會這樣說嗎不是這樣說因為應該是說不管是什麼情形農業部絕對支持台灣農業這是第一點第二點我們面對的其實也不只有台美關稅其實我們面對的是整個全球的貿易經濟那怎麼讓我們自己的農產品的我提醒你齁全世界在"},{"start":139.944,"end":149.024,"text":"比如說WTO的架構底下幾乎每一個國家都保護他的農業基本上都是這樣子的絕對可以保護的"},{"start":150.168,"end":162.279,"text":"給它拆出來我希望今天要聽到你的聲音是農業部絕對反對美國農產品全面零關稅進來台灣你可以講這句話嗎農業部絕對支持台灣農產品反對美國農產品零關稅進來啦我問你這幾個三年沒有啦應該說有些東西 比如說我們是屬於黃曉玉一百多這不壞嘛"},{"start":176.713,"end":194.937,"text":"我對你說雞腿胖百分之二十雞腿胖百分之二十當然不會所有都零關稅對我們來說要補貨也是要補貨對不對假如對我們有好處的零關稅讓我們的農民拿到更瘦的東西這不是壞事你要小心喔你要回答這個話要小心喔你不要你說你支持我們的農業結果破壞我們的農業喔就對支持我們的農業啦"},{"start":198.278,"end":224.205,"text":"第二點 第一點我跟你說你現在公布廚餘的事情2027年全面廚餘就是沒有廚餘的最多禁止他養豬是不是 確定落日會在哪一天是還在談因為其實像昨天我們跟養豬協會在談養豬的都希望可以提早但是其實整個廚餘區還是有它的一個期限"},{"start":224.845,"end":253.167,"text":"現在可能外界關心的不是禁止而已喔 禁止廚餘養豬喔比較關心的是廚餘產業鏈的問題 你怎麼處理能不能把它飼料化 變成飼料日本這樣做是不是日本就是把廚餘變飼料啊 我們當時有這個技術說可以把廚餘全面變飼料 時間表 可不可以給我時間表廚餘的用途其實也不是只有做成飼料啦 廚餘也能做出這些嘛 你去做生殖能"},{"start":256.37,"end":266.02,"text":"去化的產業鏈啦 後面產業鏈 完整可以再利用我們或者是 或者是 或者是飼料 或者其他的生殖人員 你剛剛講的recycling"},{"start":268.817,"end":287.61,"text":"什麼時候可以做到那一步這條要問環境部要問環境部怎麼會 你要想法 你要有想法沒有啦 我覺得不要有起噴啊不要有這個動物疫病的危險但是環境部就處於的去化包括源頭的減量包括的多元利用包括他的後端的管控其實環境部有在做"},{"start":287.93,"end":295.415,"text":"可是農業部的占點重要的 開始是你們的啊這不就是你們的啊 不然是處理家處理的啊所以我可不可以這樣講 你這政策已經上路了齁家庭 比如說就是家家裡的那種 那種什麼 你給我時間表吧"},{"start":311.468,"end":329.174,"text":"我們來專核環境部請他給一個完整規劃這樣是嗎不是不是 我說你禁止廚餘啦禁止廚餘的我們可以來講啦好啦 你禁止廚餘的我們來講啦你直接表強一下啦家用的是什麼時候然後一般事業什麼時候這樣啦我們行政院拍板我們來講"},{"start":330.472,"end":348.015,"text":"阿你都已經到2027了沒有啦 行政院還沒拍板啦我們早上跟那個養豬團體 他們也提了很多意見阿你們的消息不是都假的 補助線很大批說2027確定啦 所以沒有確定養豬團體其實希望可以進走啦阿我們也盡量把這個補助轉型的方式沒有啦 2027這個時間對不對啦"},{"start":349.933,"end":378.658,"text":"就要等行政院拍板所以那個還沒搞定可以一年早就早一點這樣現在說過了現在說過了應該不是我們說的每天這麼多篇你寫的結果說過了應該這兩天就會確定應該這兩天會確定這兩天可以確定什麼時候 這個禮拜可以確定嗎要行政院拍板才對外正式我們希望不僅僅禁止啦而且是怎麼樣那個處理啦再利用啦recycling這個非常重要 好不好 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166138","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6e7cf5c622d9775570bc060c38740833ea14720b4e10c82cb31a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:26:11 - 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请黄次长请黄次长"},{"start":20.03,"end":35.644,"text":"今天主題談的是運動平權喔那我在運動部的明年度的預算書有看到我們有提及非常多關於適應運動的輔助跟規劃所以今天就要來跟您探討先跟您探討這一個那比如說"},{"start":37.125,"end":45.892,"text":"有與醫療院所合作成立示範社區中心或者是充實地方資源中心適應運動的器材設備還有輔導民間團體推動科技適應運動輔助器材設備應用等等"},{"start":53.598,"end":72.384,"text":"那我剛列舉這三項其實都是非常浩大的工程那甚至我們一定要跟地方的體育局或者地方政府體育局或者地方政府的教育局來演繹 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有請部長 警政署署長還有詐欺犯罪防治中心主任法務部次長 謝謝首先 署長跟部長 我先請教一個問題剛剛大家都很關心這個所謂的繁重佳績現在你也有提到所謂的深夜危老佳績"},{"start":27.386,"end":43.421,"text":"那我們也有關心刑事加急其實剛剛都有提到我都有在聽但是我想先就教署長最近我們是不是有發文去給各縣市去做一個詢問對於這個所謂的繁重加急我直接坦白跟你講"},{"start":44.844,"end":71.031,"text":"第一年就跟你講說繁中加擠要加了一直在跟你追我也是底下打電話給你好幾次那終於你有發文問了我先一個感謝但第二個我也坦白跟你講我剛剛直接打電話去台中市政府的警察局我也在跟他們抱怨我說你收到公文怎麼還沒回他說卡在府城我直接跟你說你們有詢問市政府不同意不支持我拜託你公佈"},{"start":72.984,"end":87.687,"text":"做得到嗎如果說委員要求的話我們就會公佈你公佈嘛你支持你支持的狀況之下市政府不同意那讓市政府來接受輿論啊我們想辦法去讀書啊"},{"start":89.071,"end":115.638,"text":"對不對今天你願意詢問了我很感謝所以我剛剛也一直抱怨為什麼他們還沒回函所以我希望這個部分應該要一起來努力這個家籍的部分大家真的要想辦法幫他們我遇過警察自殺的我也遇過警察在工作場所暴斃的而現在我們為了這個詐騙事情成竹不窮所以我要問現在詐騙手法"},{"start":117.008,"end":139.044,"text":"每個禮拜都在更新假客服假加油還有一些有的沒的手法風險類型往往都跟不上這些炸團的更新速度所以現在社會上有一批很不滿的強烈不滿的就是這一批車手詐騙的車手反覆翻案民眾常常看到就是同一批同一批進去出來進去出來"},{"start":140.902,"end":162.442,"text":"抓了又放關了又出來讓治安的信任度感受到很大的一個挑戰我要問請問一下警方目前對於累犯的車手有沒有建檔標記追蹤相關的機制多次落網風險較高的這些人作為高風險對象對於偵查有更高的一個機制來做一個風險判斷有嗎"},{"start":164.298,"end":189.987,"text":"好 委員這個部分我們當然是有建立這樣的一個機制不管是剛剛很多委員有執行過就是車手不斷在同一個車手犯多次的這個狀況我們都有做這樣的一個情資的一個好 謝謝這個沒問題詐騙案件也呈現多頭的部署我舉例 人在A地 帳戶在B地網站在海外 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會被他搶走那詐騙案你後面牽扯這個不法利益可能是數百萬甚至數千萬幕後如神我們都抓不到然後最後都是車手在扛那現在這個法律的條件的體制底下車手又沒辦法重罰就像抓不到的警察"},{"start":132.079,"end":159.058,"text":"官員不怕出來繼續做人數一直逐漸的持續的增加那第一線我們的這些警政人員的這個執勤這是披於本命那這一次的朝野立委提案都說要修正這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十七四十六條那其中有一個重點就是必須要先支付被害人的和解金才可以緩刑才可以申請減刑那這個修法是希望說減少我們法律的漏洞"},{"start":160.1,"end":169.59,"text":"被鑽的這個機會那我們也可以危害我們被害人的權利那讓詐騙集團這些陳遠東必須要繳回被害人這個被騙的金額或者是跟被害人和解"},{"start":170.239,"end":195.556,"text":"才可以申請這個減免這個刑期我想這樣才可以真正讓被害人得到彌補也能夠那因此本市這邊也我絕對只是這樣想一定要針對詐騙要加重刑責然後也減少這個專法律漏洞的機會讓執法人員有更多的武器來有效的阻嚇這些犯罪的集團那也避免說你看我們這幾年打仗越打越多那執法人員就疲於本命越做越辛苦"},{"start":196.116,"end":210.892,"text":"那考個該有寒喔那接下來本縣要提案第一算執法人員來請命特別就是我們的刑警的部分喔書長我們典改來政 委員會選 接審會的書長齁就是有關刑事加級的部分書長您說4月的時候會給承諾嘛齁那會在3個月來"},{"start":214.79,"end":233.579,"text":"會提出我們刑事加急的這個方案後來都沒有消息那今年十一月中的時候我就在也是在內政委會我們就是也是問我們的副署長那副署長答應我說會在十一月底的時候提出相關報告結果你報告只有一條線就是告訴我們說會跟相關機關溝通來徵詢意見說到背就是都沒有進度嘛所以本身在這裡要很嚴肅把我們經濟事務來"},{"start":243.556,"end":251.472,"text":"講這個事情 這是第二度跳票很多基層的刑事人員都在等我們行政我們警政署的這個"},{"start":252.517,"end":255.979,"text":"所以這個對他們來講是很大的士氣的打擊那這幾年其實署長也很清楚知道刑事警察出現非常大的人力荒"},{"start":275.525,"end":291.733,"text":"這樣進行之下我們不就照顧現有的這家鄉受影響我們新進同仁也不進來那未來是不是會造成整個人情勢人員的大短缺齁這個部分我要請署長具體的回答說到底咱警政署"},{"start":293.484,"end":316.264,"text":"所研擬的這個具體方案是什麼到底什麼時候才有答案謝謝委員就是刑事人員真的是工作是非常的辛苦那我們也會針對就是整個不是只有刑事人員包括就是直轄市或各縣市政府警察局對他們的這個繁重加急或者是刑事人員做多做"},{"start":317.024,"end":334.426,"text":"全班的一個考量那我們就是會跟我們的這個相關的縣市的一個政府來先做有一些是給付要縣市政府來做一個給付這部分就是在在溝通溝通完之後我們會形成這個政策啦那我們持續在進行當中"},{"start":336.3,"end":345.007,"text":"所以今年我們有答案嗎 還是之前的行事觀我們盡量時間 盡量來提早來做規劃蘇長你現在蓋城城進的總計劃因為我們進就是說大概我們的公文也給各縣市這個政府來提供這樣的相關的意見等資訊回來之後我們再做統籌的一個比較明確的一個規劃"},{"start":361.538,"end":388.33,"text":"謝謝署長 署長還是再次強調就是這件事情其實我們已經預測到未來人力短缺的情況然後再加上現在這些制度還沒有明確的話如果我們不趕快解決真的等到哪天人力短缺亮紅燈的時候那時候來擁抱都來不及謝謝 我們會盡快來做一個處理署長 我要 部長部長可不可以也責任警政署在今年年底 今年年底"},{"start":388.959,"end":406.696,"text":"完成刑事加急的調整的具體方案也提供給本市辦公室報告委員其實我們對於警察自己本身的權益我們都非常努力來爭取那大概有幾個方向第一個就是深夜圍牢加急的部分謝謝我們立委支持我們現在已經把公文呈上去了這是一個"},{"start":407.356,"end":425.034,"text":"另外一個就是說非六都的這個警情加急的部分現在已經有新竹縣他願意朝著加成 繁重加成處理那再來就是你所說的就跟刑事警察自己本身有關的部分那我們也會把它列為是爭取的方向那這個爭取的方向你說今年年底 現在已經年底了現在12月了市長 報告部長"},{"start":428.658,"end":446.663,"text":"我們在四月的時候就說要給答案四月份的時候規劃的方向我們都知道但是就是要爭取的時候呢也是要跟地方政府溝通啦那地方政府溝通的話就是過半數的時候我們就會把這個溝通的方案再往上層然後來做爭取"},{"start":447.183,"end":468.588,"text":"這個部分大概是三個方向 因為基層會覺得說署裡面都 我覺得你這樣說不公平啦我當然 但在署裡頭的現場 當然要放基層爭取權益啊 他會覺得說我們的工作量越來越多 考核跟評比那樣多他的工作量其實在增加 其實我想署裡面都很清楚知道基層的狀況我了解 但是我們在 我剛剛跟你講說我們爭取的方向是三軌在並行的"},{"start":474.175,"end":487.007,"text":"規劃我們當然這樣規劃可是你地方政府他如果願意很快的同意我們的方向的話那我們再往那個行政單位局那部長你覺得什麼時間來可以給我們答案因為基層都需要等到這個答案"},{"start":488.832,"end":515.403,"text":"我們裡面有兩項已經往上呈報了那比較沒有太大困難那刑事的部分因為真的是牽涉到很多幫我們基層弟兄打打氣我說真的啦我們何止打氣我們本來就是要鼓勵他們而且我們是站在同一個線上在打擊犯罪的人怎麼會是用這樣的那個我們太初是非常積極的也可以透過這些質詢讓基層的這些刑事警察知道說我們署裡面真的有心想要解決這件事情"},{"start":515.823,"end":523.627,"text":"實際上其實你了解我們現在講的意思了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解 了解"},{"start":537.657,"end":564.651,"text":"報告委員我想你會了解包括我們警政署跟我們內政部都是做時事的人我想不要虛隱故事那我的意思就跟你講就是說我們在地方政府在爭取上面如果有過半數的地方政府有同意這樣的話那我們往上呈報會比較容易那你如果沒有的話確實會很困難因為你自己也當過行政官員那所以我們就盡量來爭取有的話一定會很快就讓立法院的這個委員來了解"},{"start":565.331,"end":572.66,"text":"就拜託部長跟署長這邊因為本席是接到基層行政委員一直在反映這件事情我們今天來解決這個問題 大家一起加油謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166156","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166156","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d64b4d0ae2279dd247c7cefddca96be5007a6b5dab788943101a06a885b33e9f7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:12:01 - 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經管會有請請經管會好 辛苦啦這個今天藉法條的審查的詢答跟你探討一個政策相關的問題當然也是跟這個詐欺危害犯罪防治條例相關的"},{"start":22.488,"end":50.861,"text":"這個我們這一次的院版裡面有第11條就是有談這個張款發還的方向張款發還的方向那針對這個帳戶裡面沒有經過提領的款項或資產到時候通知之後要發還給被害人也就是給予被害人最大程度的補償這事實上大家都非常非常關心因為其實詐騙的被害人其實最關心的事情就是錢到底能不能拿回來不好意思 主席"},{"start":51.803,"end":51.906,"text":"我那時間"},{"start":52.918,"end":63.566,"text":"沒有開始 我可以一直講嗎好 不要緊 繼續講 防詐的重要問題 來謝謝主席好 那我們就回到主題目前這個發完的程序就是說我這個被詐騙的錢要怎麼還給詐騙的受害人現在金管會裡面有訂立叫做金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防制詐欺犯罪危害應遵循事項辦法這名字有夠長"},{"start":83.968,"end":88.062,"text":"這53條裡面規定這是你的辦法這是一個行政命令的層級所以我說今天來做政策的對話"},{"start":89.107,"end":93.05,"text":"他說存款業務機構依前條規定辦理就剛剛講這個辦理的時候應透過這個匯出存款業務機構或電子支付通知被害人由被害人檢據相關文件然後依啊匯轉入時間逐筆認定未被提領部分由最後一筆金額往前推算這絕對大家都聽不懂在講什麼簡單來說呢這一個帳戶假設"},{"start":114.588,"end":131.333,"text":"假設有分三筆60萬一個30萬20萬的10萬好如果今天被抓了就按照10萬20萬30萬倒退的回去嘛就是越晚被詐騙的優先來領現在制度上的設計為了方便他長成這個樣子如果說這60萬沒有被領走那他就是10萬的20萬的30萬還給被害人對不對這聽起來沒問題啊"},{"start":136.434,"end":157.211,"text":"好啦 問題來啦今天如果這六十萬被詐騙完之後這個詐騙犯他把五十萬領走了剩下十萬的時候 來 問題出現了請問按照你現在的規定這個十萬該歸屬於誰啊甲乙丙甲被騙三十萬乙被騙二十萬丙被騙十萬按照這個順序 對不對其中的五十萬被甲乙者"},{"start":157.992,"end":174.641,"text":"拿去用掉了 剩下十萬在這個戶頭裡按照你現行的辦法 只有餅可以拿回這十萬甲哥你就哭啦我是怎樣 我比較早被騙 所以我比較倒楣他晚被騙 他還可以拿回來一點點這個 這樣子的一個制度設計是不是有一點狀況是不是請金管會說明一下"},{"start":176.806,"end":200.359,"text":"因為這個涉及到等於說他這個是犯罪所得的一個重新緩緩變成說他相關的法律關係的話變成說要看那個司法機關法院的判決來處理變成說那個金融機構比較沒有權責再去做相關的判斷可是現在發完程序還是要依循金管會的作業辦法來處理"},{"start":201.658,"end":217.667,"text":"是我們就是原則上是這樣子按照順序去原則上是這樣那不會延伸更多糾紛嗎因為涉及到如果說他不是整比的話就涉及到每一個受害人的權利的問題對啊那就變成說可能就要留待那個法院來做一個裁判這樣子"},{"start":218.342,"end":244.987,"text":"你現在的狀況是因為你有個規定寫在那邊那大家就要依法行政依你的辦法去做這個事情然後他就會衍生爭議縱然你講也許法院會介入判決但是這樣讓每一個事情變成個案上面有高度的不確定性本期認為有異議當然你講因為按照這個流動的順序啊或怎麼樣按照這個主筆來做回去那是最簡單的這是從金管委本會出發嘛也就是說我這是一個行政成本最低的做法但我問你這個行政成本最低的做法並不是一個最公平的做法"},{"start":245.583,"end":271.857,"text":"是不是要考慮一下修整比如等比例發還之類因為大家同樣一包被騙都很倒霉嘛對不對那最後不管這個加害人幹走了多少錢但是剩下來的錢你要等比例發還是不是比較公平也比較有統一的程序可以做依循我們現在就藉這個機會跟你做一下這樣的探討委員建議我們會來研議考慮但是就是說這個條文設計的原因就是希望加速返還這個相關的款項來彌補這個被害人的損失"},{"start":274.898,"end":292.191,"text":"讓他程序比較便捷比較快速但是如果說在細節的一些程序上的設計是不是可以向委員建議這樣比較公平性我們再來研議你要研議多久因為現在在討論法條的修正當然這個東西不見得要透過法條的修正來做處理"},{"start":292.831,"end":317.659,"text":"但是這個一定是顯然未來大家今天這次修正相關的條文就是標舉就是說這犯罪所得可以盡速而且有效的返還給被害人嘛你不要說法條修了然後大家有所期待然後最後出來發現有這樣的一個制度上的一個問題然後招致更多的糾紛恐怕有些問題所以我認為是要同步處理跟著我們法條的修正的這樣的一個節奏法條在討論的同時你的作業辦法就要有所修正那請問金管會能不能提出具體的時間表呢"},{"start":320.474,"end":340.943,"text":"時間表這部分我們是不是因為我們現在這個條文還是有一個有一個彈性的也就是說金融機構他會去判斷說這個金額的狀況是不是能夠叫發還那如果說不適合發還的話他還是就是不會先執行這個狀況那當然如果說這個怎麼去優化涉及到實務面我們在執行的話我們會再找銀行或是"},{"start":341.703,"end":367.234,"text":"執法機關來共同討論看看比較好的方式那是不是我們會後再跟委員來報告一下沒關係 配合這個法案的修正進度因為今天答詢完後面可能會再安排逐條討論的時間我不希望到逐條討論的時候這是一個懸而未解的問題好不好 你就配合因為整個詐欺違法條例在修正也一定涉及這個官方機關跟各級民意代表針對不同法條的溝通啦今天就把它當成也許有一個修正動議怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":368.679,"end":386.729,"text":"會後要跟本辦公室保持密切聯繫我們討論一下這辦法怎麼樣來修正可以兼顧行政的效率跟發環的公平性可以嗎是可以好再來我要問一下C43條的大家的修正的意見因為現在這部分我們內政部好了可以沒關係現在"},{"start":389.972,"end":415.884,"text":"上次我們在內政委員會討論這個犯刑法339條之四之罪獲取財務或財產上的利益達到五百萬元以上者就要三年以上十年以下有期徒刑嘛基本上就是重罰嘛然後達一億元者五年以上十二年以下嘛那現在很多委員都有提案了有些把門檻降低變成你的這個金手的金流受害的金額達到一百萬我就要進去關有些是說我分層處理就是說"},{"start":416.826,"end":437.069,"text":"就是說五百萬的一千萬的一億的分成三層那我請問現在行政機關對於這樣子的一個修法意見也就是說我們在重罰各式各樣的這個這種大額大家都投資詐騙的行為啦吸金詐騙投資詐騙這樣一個行為現在行政院這邊的立場是什麼謝謝委員我們現在目前就是層級化就是一百一千一億"},{"start":438.09,"end":449.375,"text":"現在就成績化那100萬的話的部分是3年到10年那如果是1000萬的話是5年到12年1億的話就是7年以上所以大概一個成績化大概是目前是這樣這加重了"},{"start":452.157,"end":467.351,"text":"這個基本上本席非常關心這個違法吸金的一個狀況就今天財政委員會同步在審查銀行法那銀行法當然是針對吸金的部分吸金的部分不一定被拿走只要金流有超過他就達成一定的要件那麼請問現在從炸房條例的地方我能不能有效嚇阻違法吸金的行為"},{"start":468.325,"end":488.111,"text":"我想有效的嚇阻是多面向的不是只有單一刑事法刑法的一個提升這是其中的一環所以我們現在修正的這個法條它也是用金流的數字去算嗎還是要用不法所得的角度去算我們這個是以被害人交付的金額交付的金額嘛對對對這個就會堵掉很多疑義"},{"start":489.171,"end":509.659,"text":"我們現在擔心的詐騙形態現在很多種有很多那種小額的啦一點點的微小的那種狀況當然是非常非常多的但是真正對於社會治安還有大家公信重大受創的一定都是那種投資型的大額詐騙就是先以小利右拐上車上車之後就開始賣房子賣身家對不對 全身一乾二淨"},{"start":510.419,"end":537.425,"text":"那種好幾百萬好幾億的所以我會建議一下這我們相關的機關在設計的時候當然現在分三成因為基本上你的最高一億元以上七年以上就是跟現在的違法基金是對齊的狀態但本期的主張啊這應該再加重因為你在超過好幾億的那是不知多少人的身家性命房子地產全部都在裡面那你如果還是只有這個七年以上恐怕是我是希望可以再往上增加我希望行政院再提出一點再細膩的版本多分幾成也無所謂這是本期的政策建議"},{"start":538.298,"end":547.067,"text":"針對投資詐騙我們一定要到牢底坐穿這是本席的主張希望我們在未來討論的時候可以有更多方向更細緻的討論可以嗎是 遵守大院的決定好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝牛市廷委員"}]}},{"id":"166149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6c9ae6c66c90fa1ccd25403dec583eac67a6b5dab7889431084ce2c86cf23990f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:55:04 - 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我想要請我們鄭部長跟王複蜜請鄭部長跟王複蜜好 兩位早安 我是特別來的因為我已經很久沒來這裡我是為了一個清潔隊員他送了32塊的回收電鍋給石荒的老婦"},{"start":36.067,"end":57.589,"text":"那我也跟法界的朋友討論了這個相關的我也問了說是不是要進行相關的修法但是我還問他說討論一下說多少錢才是比較合理的因為我看到很多人都在已經在連署了嘛那在討論說多少的金額但是"},{"start":58.69,"end":67.256,"text":"他們給我一個很重要的意見喔我也在這裡來救教兩位喔如果鄭部長你現在還是檢察官的話你會起訴這個清諜隊員嗎"},{"start":71.859,"end":90.589,"text":"跟委員報告要看那個證據因為它這一件那個清潔隊已經自首犯刑了所以已經自首犯刑所以一定會要按照法律的規定來處理了那當然這一件因為它涉及的犯罪是貪污自罪條例六條第一項第三環的那個侵佔"},{"start":91.77,"end":115.041,"text":"持有的非公有物他那個徒刑是五年以上所以既然自首犯刑而且那麼明確所以沒有空間當然我們如果說可以反起訴我們就反起訴因為反起訴是三年以上不是三年以上我們就可以可是即便是我問了其他的意見我覺得這其實不只是在修法的問題而是在檢察官跟法官"},{"start":115.521,"end":144.661,"text":"在審判的過程當中起訴跟審判過程當中跟社會的觀感的這個落差然後那當然他有實質的他有構成的要件在這個這個上面也許這個清潔罪人員有上訴構成的要件但是在實質的犯罪的時候那這個東西是不是就阻卻他實質罪責的這個部分我認為檢察官跟法官是不是"},{"start":146.122,"end":169.561,"text":"對於是否有這樣的罪責你們應該可以提出相關你們自己的心證因為這跟社會上面的觀感跟落差實在很大尤其是一個32塊的回收電鍋跟一個好像圖利他人的3200萬的罪是一樣的"},{"start":173.524,"end":202.522,"text":"那在這個情況下我認為如果在不修法的情況下目前的司法界的這個教育怎麼樣子讓檢察官讓法官就直接在就是在地檢署在法院裡面就把這個問題就解決掉啦就不用到修法不知道什麼時候才會修好啊是不是你們在這個東西其實我認為在地檢署在法院都可以"},{"start":203.422,"end":231.361,"text":"自己就解決掉啦 是不是王富密要不要謝謝委員垂詢其實委員點出了一個那個法律上一個很重要的一個概念跟議題就是實質違法性就是說我們現在討論都說對這個有構成要件對呀 貪污之罪條例它的構成要件都已經構成了嘛那所以確實那個實質違法性就是說它如果說那個法益"},{"start":232.282,"end":257.414,"text":"整個社會價值大家都會覺得說那個非常非常那個輕微的時候當然它會有這一層那當然這個個案我覺得我們尊重那個法院可是如果說我們就通案來講的話就是說以前我們年輕的時候讀書的時候就是去談這個問題的時候都會舉例說你把人家一張的那個白紙就是把它給那個侵占走了就是說這個好像是不是沒有社會上不會認為說這個構成一個犯罪"},{"start":259.435,"end":278.18,"text":"但是這裡有一個區別就是說它這是一個侵占公務通常我們對於侵占公務會比較謹慎跟保守譬如說我們大家都在公家機關服務我們可以領一些東西如果領了這些東西如果認為是30還是50還是100我們認為說這個東西不構成犯罪的話有時候對於一個公務員的這種連結性我們怎麼看待"},{"start":289.103,"end":317.66,"text":"當然可是我現在在講的就是社會觀感對於這個問題就是當然這跟拿就是我們墨水匣啦或者是紙張啦這個不是相同並論啦因為它都是在法律函設上面都是一樣同樣的東西我知道都是侵佔了一個公務對那所以這個部分我想所以為什麼我也提出王鳳玉是就是說為什麼現在這個法院的法官他也不敢"},{"start":318.22,"end":339.056,"text":"不判啊 判無罪啊有可能有可能你也擔任過高等法院的法官嘛那你也知道如果他判無罪有可能他也會說也會被高院說他違反了罪行法定主義是不是他也可能就發回更審那在這樣子的情況下他就"},{"start":341.297,"end":369.107,"text":"這個初審的那個法官他就就輕判嘛他認為他輕判啦可是對於一般的公務人員對於一般的民眾而言當然大家就會覺得說這只是一個好像良善的善意的表現那反而造就了公務人員以及我們一般民眾沒有辦法展現善意的表現是不是"},{"start":369.947,"end":394.252,"text":"我想委員 所以我想那個整個還是要從就是那個立法上 就是實體法上去那個著手啊就是說有關於貪污自罪條例裡頭的這個法定性這麼重有沒有那對於這一種就是違罪的這一種貪污事件怎麼樣讓他那個法定性降低或者是免刑因為這樣子的話就是才有辦法實質解套那你們現在有方向嗎"},{"start":395.732,"end":424.347,"text":"那個法務部他們在修法那我在這邊在利用這個時間我剛好接這個講就是說憲法那個保障法官可以獨立審判前提是他叫依法獨立審判所以說法官在這個案件裡頭他是完全依照我們的憲刑法那至於說憲刑法要不要檢討我想這個是可以大家可以集思廣益的一個議題對可是也有判例他是判無罪的嘛是不是過去有判例是不是"},{"start":430.25,"end":454.205,"text":"那跟委員報告那個法務部是那個法案的主管機關那這部分我們因為我們長久大家有注意到這個問題所以我們在已經提出修正草案就是針對那個小兒的這些貪污的像五年五萬以下的這部分目前法律是減輕提醒那個空間沒那麼大所以這次這個案件締公案檢了四次"},{"start":455.606,"end":476.697,"text":"剪了四次他當然也剪到不用關嘛在兩年以下三個月他有反省但是我們認為是這樣是不夠的所以我們有在一個豁免處提醒給法官有更大的一個空間那我想這部分那個行政院已經審訊了那我們想我們我想會盡快送到立法院來審理好不好這種東西好像讓民眾覺得說"},{"start":478.12,"end":493.553,"text":"就是沒有辦法表現就情形化中的問題的確困擾司法界沒有辦法表現他們就是說對於一些需要幫助的人那如果今天一個首長他拿了他自己在那個就是說可能拿到的水果什麼"},{"start":495.114,"end":510.731,"text":"送給一般的就是需要的民眾那這樣子是不是也是這樣子的情況那這也會讓他們讓大家都不敢就是對民眾表示良善那對於需要幫助的人沒有辦法表示良善的話那我覺得這個社會也不會更好好不好 謝謝謝謝委員好 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有請我們法務部正部長還有我們司法院王副秘書長請部長跟王副秘 委員好部長還有副秘書長 庭長也上來了今天招牌排的這一個題目不來捧場都不行 不然我其實是身體很不舒服但我這兩天 我是這個"},{"start":35.663,"end":63.501,"text":"這一直在思考這個問題這個不敢說輾轉反側但是我就把時間一直把它倒流說我們當年制定這部法令還有其實在105年就2016年我們同樣在這個地方在這個整個基層篇的時候清除基層篇我們這整個修訂的時候特留份的問題那到底要怎麼來做解決的時候"},{"start":64.622,"end":83.253,"text":"本期特別去調閱了紀錄就是說在2017年3月13號那個時候網絡部的次長陳明堂說過了來這個地方講說有人主張完全不要特留份但我們採漸進的方式不要全部刪除但降低特留份的一個比例"},{"start":84.354,"end":95.891,"text":"那這個當然可以代表說當105年的時候差不多法務部的一個立場那這個立場其實在當初是大家朝野大家覺得說也不錯也不錯"},{"start":97.659,"end":121.107,"text":"從過去來看 你現在來看這個繼承的一個難題它是一個不公平的法律還是不夠周全的一個改革呢這個其實特留份的制度的探討是真的很值得大家來做一個思考因為這個也沒有牽扯到過度的一個政治的一個攻防外界當然有提案的一個主張下一頁看一下"},{"start":124.039,"end":148.191,"text":"那過去你就把它看法律是停留在整個宗族的一個互助你說民國19年法律這樣的一個制定其實當初確實是一個大家庭 宗族的社會兄弟姊妹確實也住在一起那共同來耕作 尤其是鄉下那法律就是把這個把這整個家當成一個競技的一個共同體請問就是整個來"},{"start":149.571,"end":153.335,"text":"因為才會得成就一戶我們這個年代都成就生死的那是不要有本質的我保證你會唱你就知道那種東西為的是根本為了沒本質但是到最後你長大啦父母親強制給你家裡啦給你本質講一句啦 家裡打拚但是到了2025年你說現在社會的一個現實裡面"},{"start":168.992,"end":171.936,"text":"確實你說頂客族啦還有的不婚不生的甚至於他終身獨居的也越來越多那你這個成年手足各自獨立了那關係確實是變得比較疏離兄弟之間可以講說是各自在登山也不是互相在扶持"},{"start":189.355,"end":213.743,"text":"可是你再去把它想一想我們現行法律的一個規定116條兄弟姊妹之間喔他確實還是互相照顧的一個義務就是有互相撫養的一個義務那所以呢你說我們今天繼承的制度的一個精密的齒輪去把它看說因濟分跟特留分的部分因為因濟分的部分如果沒有立議主法律預設分配的一個比例"},{"start":214.463,"end":231.422,"text":"那如果特留份你就算有利益組法律強制為特定基層人來保留最低的一個基層額那只修一個齒輪你整部機器還是沒有辦法順暢的去做一個運作我看今天這當然就大家在討論這個陳松永的一個案件來繼續往下來看"},{"start":232.623,"end":253.183,"text":"那陳雄勇這個案件當然他是立了一個都有遺囑的一個單身者來講的話那特留份就變成了一個對遺願的一個阻礙財產對當事人來講的話理論上說我有多少財產生前我愛怎麼處分我就可以怎麼處分你本來就是要尊重"},{"start":254.189,"end":266.717,"text":"我今天賺了多少錢我看到誰很開心我看到翁小玲給十億看到謝亦鳳給二十億我還沒死掉那是我的權利啊我的權利啊突然死掉那一天就變成我自己的我自己的財產的一個自主一個所有權人我就失去了這也很奇怪可是我想當初這樣的一個設計就是在講宣告兄弟姐妹是家族的一環"},{"start":284.212,"end":304.669,"text":"我把這一次贊成跟反對理由我想了三天我自己個人去想那是我自己的一個感觸我都會覺得說你馬上去把兄弟姐妹的特留份你去把它給廢除掉會產生一個社會上的一個衝擊大家也必須要去思考一下我這個比較老派"},{"start":305.911,"end":334.913,"text":"我不能用我的意见可是我是认为说你如果说去把它给删除掉也会有一个后遗症好像是向外界宣示兄弟姐妹没那么重要我担心这个我担心这个所以你看我们的整个法律的我们的继承篇在修订的时候你就有第一顺位第二顺位第三顺位兄弟姐妹就第三顺位如果说我们现在讲特留份如果没有应记份的话你根本就不会有特留份"},{"start":336.072,"end":349.977,"text":"我前面如果順位我是有配我的話我有子妻血親背心鼠的話就是我有兒子有子女的話根本就輪不到兄弟姐妹來繼承輪不到所以你真的沒有不是在一個這個繼承人"},{"start":351.004,"end":367.53,"text":"没有这个应激分的时候你就不用去考论到这个了那如果说被继承人他死亡以后他留下这些财产你说今天要讨论刚好他都没有第一顺位第二顺位了兄弟姐妹跳出来了这要不要来尊重拥有财产者"},{"start":367.95,"end":373.853,"text":"他財政要去打拼來財政要怎麼處理這當然是一個好問題但是也因為我們有這個法務部在十年前我們在修法的時候提出這樣說我循序漸進來我覺得是合理的我們隔壁的韓國你說他去憲法法庭去宣告兄弟姊妹這個特留份的部分他是違憲在韓國來講的話他認為通啊以現在台灣社會來看的話你也不能說這樣子不對啊"},{"start":397.213,"end":418.555,"text":"你就像在德國這個富民社長就最熟了那德國的法律裡面兄弟姐妹他根本就沒有特留份的他根本就沒有特留份可是以在台灣來看的話從過去我們從19年到現在將近100年的時間我們保留這部的一個法律你再看看我們隔壁其實我們這個整個親屬篇跟繼承篇我們受到日本的影響會更大"},{"start":419.716,"end":427.931,"text":"那受到他們影響更大的話是不是我們也可以去學習啊我們也可以去學習啊就確實是我們不要用扣的啦不要說誰這個部分就把它給扣掉了你把它加進來"},{"start":431.287,"end":453.416,"text":"比較幸運的是你有貢獻,我就覺得你對於你像譬如說你這個解決長照妹妹的困境,讓有貢獻者在沒有這個遺囑的時候可以得到更多。所以我們的解方啊,就是不是只有減法啦,也可以有加法,就變成說它是整套的。來下一頁再來看一下。"},{"start":454.062,"end":471.709,"text":"那就是說貢獻分制度啦把孝心都把它給算進來啦這個當然就是說要看我們立法院到最後大家趙偉的智慧趙偉你擺這個看大家的智慧就是來算進一套裡面不要貿然的讓人家覺得說"},{"start":473.277,"end":485.044,"text":"兄弟姐妹實在羞我唯一擔心的就只有這個而已唯一擔心的就是說這個法令你一做修改以後大家會覺得說你沒說不會的我也覺得我反覆思考這幾天我也覺得你要把它修下去你說單純解決財產把它修掉都會衝擊大不大 不大"},{"start":493.769,"end":501.996,"text":"哪會有多大 因為真正會產生這個問題的是我前面就講過了 你會有特略分問題是因為你必須要前面有應激分的問題你會沒有配偶 沒有這個子女才會你這個兄弟姐妹才會跳上來不然的話 你說這種情況在社會已經變少了兄弟姐妹會有機會來繼承到財產本來就很少了"},{"start":518.73,"end":537.411,"text":"對社會衝擊財產的部分不大但是會對於說兄弟姊妹之間的關係對社會會不會產生衝擊這個是我比較我這一輩的人比較老派的人的顧忌我會有這樣的一個擔憂也一併給他來做一個思考那剛好"},{"start":538.772,"end":554.507,"text":"日本 我們隔壁的日本他們有這樣的一個法制所以我今天這個雖然人不太舒服但是這個召委提出這樣的一個排這樣的一個議程我是覺得非常有意義啦所以我的結論就是說該當法務部這個 你有委託嘛"},{"start":557.91,"end":566.297,"text":"那在修訂一個法令的時候 涉及到整個社會是不是有所衝擊的時候確實該去研究啦 該去公聽啦 把你們委託的案子請問部長你們是什麼時候就委託了好像四月份就委託今年四月份 十二月底會提出"},{"start":578.246,"end":601.864,"text":"十二月會提出來那這一些其實也很多很多委員今天的一個關心我相信召委會提出來就是想聽聽大家的意見大家及時廣益那我們也期待法務部家可以可以盡量盡量盡量讓一個一個法律制度的一個變革可以讓他更面面俱到比較保守的人"},{"start":602.622,"end":622.735,"text":"比較擔心的人像我比較擔心的人我會覺得說是不是再思考一下我不反對嘛我對你說特留份你說真正全部把它廢除的話財產爭議對社會產生的那種衝突很少我擔心的是整個法治面會動搖到整個兄弟姊妹之間的關係你說很多人說你這兄弟姊妹變成是我們沒在照顧的幾十年都沒在聯絡啊很多社會是這樣子沒有錯啊可是啊兄弟姊妹這幾個字像我就好了"},{"start":632.381,"end":649.809,"text":"我恨不得我更有能力去把我周遭的兄弟姐妹我的家族照顧得更好啊我們老一輩的人這一輩的人的想法是這樣子啊更年輕的人的想法是說一人一雞胎你怕什麼你會你不怕什麼你死好啊這樣想法的人也有啊但是我們這個是整個繼承的一個制度"},{"start":651.345,"end":676.452,"text":"走了快一百年了 要把它修訂 可以 別的國家也有我們也可以跟 衝擊也不大但是我比較擔心的就是修法下去以後好像宣告兄弟姊妹 再來就沒有那麼重要了以上提出 因為在立法院本來就是不同的看法大家互相提出來 大家做一個切磋 互相做一個參考博敬我這樣說可以啦 我不知道 無名 簡單給我回應一下"},{"start":677.646,"end":689.058,"text":"謝謝委員曾知卓堅的那個指導那我們會廣泛的再去那個思考跟研議 謝謝是啦 真的廣泛的思考跟研議啦因為這一題來講的話 張委員一定最熟的嘛德國確實是沒有嘛"},{"start":689.986,"end":690.006,"text":"謝謝鍾委員"}]}},{"id":"166141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6cc9efb7b409ff7f809a18256bf6bdfeba14720b4e10c82cb28abf62da49b1b6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:36:08 - 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謝謝主席 我想要請彭主委好 請彭主委主委早安好我有關就是金融業其實我看了一下我們金融業佔整體國家GDP的比重只有6%那就是長期以來都是這個情況有沒有辦法就是佔國家GDP的比例提高"},{"start":29.504,"end":54.857,"text":"這個是我們努力的方向因為我們過去看就是整個GDP的比例成長代表說其實一直維持在這個就是當我們國家的產業已經高度成長的時候金融業是跟他同步成長所以比例不會變但是我們如果要超過這個比例的話就要超額成長就是說我們的成長要比一般的整個產業的成長來得快這是我們努力在做的事情那有辦法嗎就是在風險跟這個我們怎麼樣子創造"},{"start":57.958,"end":85.809,"text":"其實比如說跟委員報告就是像我們在去年10月開始推動亞洲資產關係中心透過政策鬆綁我們確實看到我們的金融業在這方面產值已經開始發揮它的動囊我想這就是怎麼樣導致一個超額成長很重要的概念像比如說我們像今年11月我們開放那個亞洲創新版就是那個亞洲投資平台的部分如果這能夠帶動起來的話我整體的產業包括我們整個"},{"start":86.809,"end":114.212,"text":"整個各個銀行證券保險都能夠同步上升的話那還可以帶動產業的發展當然當然就是相對的也帶動國內產業的發展因為金融業的成長一定是根基在產業的成長上面他們相輔相成因為產業成長需要金融的支持那金融支持他把他支持的產業變大他當然的空間又變大而且他們還會打國際盃才有可能在海外去擴張怎麼樣子吸引就是說國外的資金來台嘛"},{"start":114.312,"end":132.705,"text":"那這也能夠創造就是說金融業的整體的比重能夠提高對 當然這是比如說我們吸引國際就是要跟國際對標做法要跟國際對標因為國際的資金它會在全球去搜尋它適合的標的跟適合的服務項目"},{"start":134.456,"end":160.246,"text":"當然我們現在的做法就是因為我們也看到國內的本來過去我們長期的經濟發展累積了非常多的國民的財富這個財富的本身在過去這麼多年來很大量在海外我們想希望第一個先以我們的我們自己的這些作為能夠吸引他們能夠回到台灣來或者說留在台灣再來利用這個動能帶動國際的資金也來台灣這是我們現在的策略一步一步這樣走"},{"start":160.966,"end":189.463,"text":"好那當然除了要發展我們金融業希望發展但也希望風險的相對的控管那當然這是我們要做對不對那在我知道說金管會也現在在研擬虛擬資產服務法的相關的這樣子的一個部分那就我們現在的虛擬貨幣的交易所即便是在台灣受到就是受到我們金融機構就是金管會的監理那"},{"start":190.183,"end":219.004,"text":"其实我们知道国际上很大的这些金融的虚拟市场的交易所他们并没有落地他们并没有受我们台湾或者是其他国家的监管那到时候如果在这类型的虚拟货币或者是这样子的交易所发生了相关的问题的时候那未来怎么样子处理相关的意义"},{"start":220.369,"end":236.12,"text":"這個確實是一個比如說我們要面對的問題再來就是說我們現在就是因為我們在開放我們現在的國內的交易平台的時候因為現在國人的參與率還是相對比較低但是因為在過去國內沒有這市場的時候他只要轉向國外"},{"start":236.88,"end":256.697,"text":"那要到國外去他要具備一定的能力但是當我們國人開始這個觀念越來越多的時候我們希望都是在國內監管的這個平台下交易這部分我們的國人的保障會比較安全那至於在國外交易畢竟是比較不方便而且他沒辦法跟國內金融機構網路的平台的交易"},{"start":257.137,"end":277.461,"text":"對 雖然它可以這樣但它沒辦法跟台灣我們所納管的金融機構做往來這個就是它產生一個很大的等於說我們可以透過這個監管保護我們的國人在未來在這市場上的發展我們現在時就是說在國內落地的這樣子的一個交易所都是變成介於就是把我們的實質的貨幣變成虛擬的貨幣的這樣子一個轉換的一個部分嘛"},{"start":282.102,"end":297.99,"text":"那但是對於就是說在現在目前在國際上面比較知名的就是交易所那他們的槓桿或者是他們相關的商品比較多的情況下那也有可能造成"},{"start":298.65,"end":327.351,"text":"就是金融交易上面的風險或者是法律的疑義那希望金管會未來對這個部分也要進行就是說研議畢竟到時候國內如果有金融消費者受到相關的問題的時候也有可能會產生相關的糾紛嘛那希望說我們國內的金管會也能對於這樣子的部分也開始"},{"start":327.951,"end":346.037,"text":"進行演繹好嗎其實我們一直都在做但就是我們也其實我們在比如說我們的BESP專法裡面本來就是外國本來就可以來台灣申請設立這個是沒有問題但是就是說要符合我們相關的規定好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝一鋒委員質詢接下來請劉許廷委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166140","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d62f45dd3201f16cc9d25403dec583eac6a14720b4e10c82cb739c7deb8e227a905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:28:43 - 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有請部長有請部長跟副秘書長有請副秘書長委員好大家辛苦了 已經備詢一整個早上那我也扣合著剛剛很多委員在垂詢的一個議題也是社會非常關心的為什麼一個舊電鍋會變成貪污的重罪"},{"start":29.225,"end":56.287,"text":"現在很多委員都說法外開恩為罪不舉但是法外開恩難道這個責任就是要求給我們的司法人員檢察官必須不起訴法官不能判刑好像就就責於司法人員依法來判案嗎法外開恩第二個壓力又給了總統要請總統社會呼籲是不是大赦特赦什麼的"},{"start":57.352,"end":77.304,"text":"但是我覺得法外開恩這件事情我們要回到第一個字叫做法法律怎麼定是不是法本身有問題我非常同意我也建議你們你們會針對小額的貪汙去做一些法令的檢討可是我身為立法委員"},{"start":78.9,"end":103.794,"text":"當立法委員一再的為了社會的個案很輕易的去指責恐龍法官 恐龍檢察官我們其實自己也要想想立法委員是不是成了恐龍立委貪污治罪條例現有對於公務人員的貪污罪它確實設計得很重而且很沒有彈性 對不對這是現況法是誰定的"},{"start":107.625,"end":129.817,"text":"立法委員定的立法委員自己定的法現在檢察官想方設法用各種方式想為這一個三十幾塊的電鍋這位清潔隊員想辦法給予不起訴但是因為法規定在那他沒有辦法達到還起訴不起訴的條件"},{"start":133.095,"end":158.925,"text":"法官也沒有辦法因為法就在那裡我們這個案子法官努力的給予幾次的減刑的努力幫委員四次是所以當立法委員在這裡因為一個社會案件很關心我也很關心我們要給溫暖法理情但是立委不要忘了自己要好好立法的這個責任"},{"start":161.667,"end":177.554,"text":"往往在立法院面對貪汙罪要求刑責加重加重不管比例原則一再的要求加重刑責的立法委員現在搖身一變變成大善人在這裡為這個個案要請總統給予特赦大赦"},{"start":182.833,"end":199.954,"text":"所以我覺得反求諸己法外開恩我們窮盡一切的努力針對特別的特殊型的個案想方設法找出那個法律溫暖的部分但是法外開恩法是誰定的"},{"start":200.655,"end":226.022,"text":"我們在場所有的立委也都應當好好來檢視是不是在很多的制定法律的時候單方面的要求加重刑責 下重刑責 加重刑責而讓該有彈性的部分沒了彈性這是我對這個案子的看法你們同意我的觀點嗎同意所以說比例原則是重要的"},{"start":227.062,"end":255.941,"text":"我希望我們委員在進行所有的議案的時候我更希望避免於為個案來要求指導要求怎麼樣剛剛有委員說這個案子檢察官起訴之後社會壓力已經開始罵了抨擊為什麼法官還要判那意思是說所有的法官他在判判任何案件的時候必然要受到社會意見的影響嗎這樣又是正向的嗎"},{"start":257.358,"end":270.598,"text":"而檢察官跟法官他同樣必須承擔另外一個社會責任如果我這個案子被檢舉而不辦我會被說吃案 對不對或者是我這個案子沒有依法去辦"},{"start":272.281,"end":290.939,"text":"然後可能給了不好的示範以後讓真的壞心的公務人員去用這種小額貪污的方式真的去侵佔了不應當屬於他的財物這不是檢察官想要達到他還是要有提升公務人員連能的這個社會責任嘛這個案子誰舉發的"},{"start":296.568,"end":325.625,"text":"跟委員報告這案件是民眾跟台北市環保局來檢舉的齁所以舉發單位是台北市環保局嘛好像這個案子也送到政鋒對 他然後就是北投分隊有先訪談那這個黃迅的被告有坦承這是有他個人坦承犯行他有把電鍋吸出他那個外面去齁那北投分隊才簽辦了來匯政鋒是後來才跟辦案機關來做一個自首的"},{"start":325.865,"end":340.977,"text":"好 我就是提供一個不一樣角度的思考當一個是台北市政府環保局還有政風市檢舉要求就是說已經循正式管道來舉發的案子檢察官也不能不辦嘛是"},{"start":341.417,"end":367.217,"text":"不辦了 又被說成是吃案 怎麼辦呢是 變包庇犯罪當然這個案子本身 我非常同意我們未來在法的本身更合理的來修正但是 但是如果只是很急切的來就責於這些依法來審判的檢察官或法官我覺得可能也有失公允但是我認同這個案子 我們要"},{"start":369.298,"end":395.054,"text":"我也很不敢 我也很心疼這是我北投的居民但是我是司法法制的委員我呼籲所有的立法委員在進行法律的修正的時候真的 我們都要橫平的去看守比例原則否則貪污罪就是那麼重每一次每個立委都加重 加重 加重公務人員就是不得貪污一旦貪污就是罪該萬死"},{"start":396.499,"end":423.37,"text":"然後這麼重的罪導致於五年以上他連還起訴的機會都沒有啊所以檢察官跟法官是想方設法幫助這個個案但是現有的法律框架就有困難的確 他那個因為還起訴要三年以上他這個是五年以上所以沒有空間所以事實上在偵辦的時候檢察官後來結案的時候也幫一直在求情檢察官在求情 法官也想辦法減刑"},{"start":425.211,"end":450.757,"text":"所以这是一个我们不愿意面对到很心痛的个案未来立法院在修法的时候我真呼吁我们所有的立委我们就好好把小额贪污的界定大家能够很务实的去界定而不要到时候又冠上了谁什么帽子说谁在助长犯罪我觉得这样是不是理性讨论法律应当有的态度第二个刚刚说修法有善的修法跟恶的修法"},{"start":451.637,"end":474.375,"text":"為了剛剛這個電鍋的案件 我們針對貪污治罪條例來進行小額貪污的重新檢視我認為那是善的修法我們讓法律有溫暖 避免這種類似的個案再發生但是現在立法院發生了惡的修法 您知道嗎昨天國民黨團提案 禁負二讀 又是禁負二讀 文匯不用討論"},{"start":476.698,"end":502.206,"text":"不當黨產處理條例立法委員國民黨委員的提案直接排除救國團他並不應當被認為是國民黨的附隨組織所以呢救國團依法被追討的這些財產黨產當初是侵佔國產民產的就可以順利的黨產復辟順利的不公不義了我認為這就是二的修法下一頁"},{"start":503.314,"end":531.668,"text":"而這個禁賦惡毒的案子會去侵害到北高行判決救國團已經敗訴的救國團61筆土地的建物16億的不當財產都要移轉收歸國有還財於民還財於國但是現在國民黨的委員就這個已經敗訴或者說持續在程序中的案子好了他還是可以持續進行"},{"start":533.174,"end":548.299,"text":"量身定制的修法而且是自私自利的為了自己的黨產來修法再一次用政治凌駕司法如果這個法修過了那現在辦到一半的案子怎麼辦啊 部長我說這就是惡的修法嘛政治凌駕專業 我問你專業的問題如果這個案欸 救國團被修法排除了黨產那這個當初北高行的判決"},{"start":563.669,"end":590.239,"text":"怎麼辦我們尊重北高興的判決因為這是台北高等行政法院的一個判決我們尊重我們都尊重但我要提示修法有善的修法把法修得更好是更有溫暖更幫助這些弱勢的真的是特殊的個案去協助他救濟他的權利但是有一種就是惡的修法為了自私自利的國民黨的黨產"},{"start":592.503,"end":608.463,"text":"然後要來修法來侵害了司法偵辦當中的案件這就是惡的修法下一頁今天的這個特留分的規定我們來看最後這個日本的那一頁好了"},{"start":610.993,"end":624.887,"text":"日本有個制度剛剛審發會委員有提到我們是不是能夠研議繼承貢獻制度的規定也就是說實質全新投入而且投入照顧的持續時間很長然後沒有對價關係"},{"start":629.96,"end":653.016,"text":"的這一種特殊貢獻制度把它來參照在繼承裡頭給予合理的分配你們在修法的過程是不是可以參考這樣子的方向這部分我想的確日本的立法律可以提供給我們一個參考因為日本的法治跟台灣的法治本來就是有淵源是接近的"},{"start":653.772,"end":660.191,"text":"那民情也比較接近那這部分我想我們會做一個參考的看看有沒有辦法融入"},{"start":660.768,"end":687.851,"text":"那我回到我的第三頁喔來 第三頁這一頁我也講一下下一頁喔就是說我確實認為這個民國19年定到現在的制度是應當因應時代的變遷要有所調整因為它造成了權利義務的不對等喔全球也很罕見剩下台灣我具體提出我支持可以往這方面修法來討論是民法11145條有個不效條款你們知道嗎"},{"start":689.212,"end":712.457,"text":"針對因撫養而未撫養未善盡撫養之責的人其實是可以剝奪喪失他的繼承權所以說依民法的不肖條款即便是直系親屬但是你確定是你可能甚至還有虐待的行為對不對沒有善盡撫養之務你可能都被免除直系都會被免除可是旁系親屬兄弟姊妹完全未負撫養責任的卻"},{"start":715.12,"end":722.129,"text":"都可以享有特留分的分配這是不公平之一第二個無子女者"},{"start":723.645,"end":747.031,"text":"會被兄弟姊妹繼承可是他雙他卻沒有辦法去繼承有子女的手足的財產這淪為一種單向的關係所以我基於很多的理由當然我自己也是一個單身沒有子女的人喔我認為我其實認為可以正向的討論但是剛剛王逸川委員的提醒也非常的"},{"start":748.622,"end":776.44,"text":"懇切我們在任何的修法不要再重蹈覆轍像我剛剛講的電鍋案在某個社會氛圍下某一種社會的討論聚焦於某一種類型可是會有其他的類型的眼神可能會開了一個小門可能就開了一個大窗或大門我認為都審慎研議我是支持可以討論但是特留分要怎麼樣去把制度設計得更好"},{"start":777.878,"end":792.608,"text":"我覺得大家需要聽看聽好嗎我最後時間到來 部長要補充一個提醒委員剛才提出的提到的寶貴的一個意見我們會一併來做一個檢討好 謝謝辛苦 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝那接下來請"}]}},{"id":"166137","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d694d566e459bfa92009a18256bf6bdfeba14720b4e10c82cbee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:24:24 - 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金融這些蓬勃發展這當然好"},{"start":50.828,"end":76.594,"text":"不過這也代表了不當招攬的風險是提高了不當招攬的風險當然我們金管會有責令各金融單位銀行他們要對於銷售這些理財商品要做充分詳實的向消費者來做說明這一點是有進步但是我從結論來看"},{"start":79.255,"end":101.497,"text":"我們光是去年去年開罰了一億七千七百萬在這種不當金融商品的銷售上面那這一億七千七看起來好像金額蠻高的喔但是這卻是這五年來罰款最少的一次更"},{"start":105.031,"end":117.365,"text":"那個年減率更是九年來的新低過去都一年還罰了有三億多那麼至於說不當金融產品在108年到113年這六年裡面"},{"start":122.712,"end":142.059,"text":"實質抓到的說這一件事不當金融商品這樣抓的總共才抓了三件總共才抓了三件總共才裁罰五千六百萬然後這些銀行體系他們也有還有更多很離譜我隨便舉個例子像理財專員"},{"start":144.389,"end":166.508,"text":"去挪用存款戶的存款的這一個部分那麼這一個部分近10年來有抓到的有22家銀行總共抓了35件罰了1億6900萬就是理財專員去挪用客戶的存款"},{"start":167.475,"end":192.809,"text":"那挪用的金額那金額更是遠大於這罰的這麼一點錢啦那麼我要說的就是說我們在對於金融機構他們的不管理財專員他們的存款的專員或者他們管理的人才的要求跟訓練再多也不夠啦 再多也不夠那這裡面"},{"start":194.437,"end":209.919,"text":"造成的金融的爭議消費的爭議而去受損的我今天要特別跟你提的就是我們這些高齡者高齡的金融消費者他們最無辜啦"},{"start":210.97,"end":228.232,"text":"高齡的金融消費者因為他在銀行裡面的存款80%以上都是從其一生他努力的成果就那些錢那些就是他要養老中老用的退休金"},{"start":229.657,"end":251.982,"text":"所以他們在處理這一個部分的時候當然會接受理財專員他們來報一些有哪一種哪一些理財商品他們去了解然後去購買但是他們一旦受騙或者這些理財專員講得不清不楚"},{"start":252.95,"end":272.717,"text":"那麼之間有誤會的那造成的損失都是消費者高齡金融消費者他必須自己去吸收的所以這個部分蠻無辜的啦那在這個部分我查了一下這幾年來當然你們也有進步但是"},{"start":274.361,"end":296.947,"text":"是高齡金融消費者很多理財銀行他就解釋說年紀大的人自己聽不清楚耳背或者沒有耐心聽所以造成爭議其實並不然你看所有這些案件裡面如果經過向金融機構申訴"},{"start":298.703,"end":319.45,"text":"那不被接受他們再去找評議中心來申請評議的案件裡面竟然高達我以這三年來的例子111年高齡金融消費者他們提出金融爭議有理者高達18.76%將近20%欸遠高於其他年齡層"},{"start":326.303,"end":352.131,"text":"所以並不是說高齡金融消費者他們的理解力差不是這樣也不是說高齡者他們不講道理並不是這個樣子不是現在一般坊間銀行所稱的所以在這一個部分我不曉得你看法怎麼樣然後我知道你們好像有推一個重新又在評估"},{"start":353.553,"end":379.454,"text":"銀行金融機構他們要公平待客的機制那我不曉得你在這一個部分對於高齡金融消費者他們受到的委屈他們提出的金融評議的爭議其實有20%都是有道理的你看喔金融爭議消費的評估已經算很嚴苛了喔那樣子之下還20%是認為他們有道理的"},{"start":383.499,"end":392.372,"text":"可見這些老人家他是吃虧在購買在接洽這個金融商品的當下他是吃虧的"},{"start":393.922,"end":413.447,"text":"你看法有哪一些你們可以做的像委員這個投影片所示確實我們最高齡者的消費者的保護一直是我們最近的公共重點比如說我們也針對因為台灣走向高齡化客戶會越來越的比例越高是在高齡者高齡者確實在"},{"start":415.029,"end":430.058,"text":"很多的狀況之下他很多的情況確實跟比如說我們一般的年輕人不太一樣所以這部分我們在評議上面也會針對這個高齡者做一個比較多的一個考量所以我們也看到高齡者這個所謂的比例整個的"},{"start":430.959,"end":451.224,"text":"那個有理由的比率其實在下降就代表說其實上我們在這個增值的上面金融機構他們這個沒有理由進入平益的比率是在下降中我想這部分也是一個我們看到不過剛剛委員提醒我們對高齡者一直在做很多很多的努力包括我們最近在去標籤的話我們就不希望說"},{"start":452.364,"end":480.61,"text":"把高齡者只有年齡來做個區隔這個不太對的那我覺得應該是說對他來講要有基本的尊重但是要有一個高度的保護而且要更特別的保護才對他們如果年輕人今天一些存款吃了虧因為理財購買過程吃了虧他改天還有再賺回來的機會那高齡的金融消費者"},{"start":482.267,"end":508.559,"text":"都已經年屆65歲以上那已經不可能重新再就業再額外的金錢來投入嘛他剩的這一些就是他要終老所用照說這些理財專員沒資格就不要來當銀行金融機構對這一部分理財專員的認定考核竟然是那麼鬆散"},{"start":510.899,"end":535.009,"text":"那包括評鑑 有啦你們有做評鑑齁我看了一下你們對於受險產險這些金融機構當然是包括銀行齁你們有評鑑啦那你們評鑑這也是111年到113年76家金融業者評鑑只有6家欸只有6家列入優等天啊"},{"start":537.028,"end":561.639,"text":"那更糟糕的是另外有三家被你們列到這個我簡單講那個叫列等啦那三家是列等的那三家裡面壽險一家 產檢一家 銀行一家天啊 那我們委員會我們一次要求就是說這樣子"},{"start":563.57,"end":577.061,"text":"至少先把這些劣等的連續三年劣等末段班的公佈名稱讓社會大眾知道尤其讓高齡金融消費者知道銀行那麼多壽險業者那麼多來去北京就好我們為什麼要來你這邊"},{"start":585.498,"end":599.329,"text":"至少對他們有一個警示 警示給社會大眾知道同時也對這三家惡劣業者 等於是對他們的一種處罰否則你現在 欸 評鑑歸評鑑啦齁啊你說沒關係啦 這個我們知道啊我們要把他們就近看管齁啊儘管會 銀行局 保險局會加強看管他們"},{"start":610.197,"end":626.198,"text":"看管怪看管要嚴加管考這是對的但是公布給社會知道讓所有金融消費者尤其高齡者他們才能夠知道說至少這幾家我不要去破"},{"start":627.267,"end":644.497,"text":"不是這樣嗎我們現在是公布前百分之十五了你公布優等的嘛你公布優等的等於是在幫他們打廣告優等的被官方認證打廣告其實也未嘗不可但是劣等的"},{"start":645.898,"end":663.529,"text":"這是讓我們社會大眾知道 等於警示了所有消費者尤其高齡者 讓他們知道說 銀行 保險公司那麼多我就偏偏不來你這三家末段班這才對 減少爭議嘛好不好 那什麼時候公布我們來演繹一下整個制度 再跟委員報告"},{"start":672.264,"end":687.567,"text":"好啦 最短的時間跟我說明 好不好不只最後末段這三家你中間還有一些名玩不靈的啦 好不好倒數的倒數的十家 我認為都應該公佈好 謝謝好 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示說未來因為我們現在是不是部長你可以到華府嗎沒有說不可以但是也許過去有一些默契一些限制但是並不是"},{"start":86.795,"end":102.094,"text":"如同就是說民國的規定現在因為有這個新的法案通過我想對於鬆綁正常的往來是一個很大的應該促進過去總統副總統 國防部長 外交部長 行政院長"},{"start":103.248,"end":122.362,"text":"是不是都沒有辦法到華府過去是有這樣的一個某種的情形啦但是不代表這個是不行的現在又有法案做基礎我想台美雙方都會在這個新的法案基礎上去提升交往部長任內有到過華府嗎"},{"start":127.095,"end":154.033,"text":"這個我比較不方便這個OK表示說台美的一直有這個默契而且台美關係也越來越好那這個再請教一下部長這個您有接受這個專訪那有特別提到就是說本來賴總統在今年8月的時候要出訪這個巴拉圭 瓜地馬拉 貝里斯我沒有這樣提這個是外面媒體有一些報過但是一直沒有確定的事情這樣子 好"},{"start":155.074,"end":171.228,"text":"那所以說那您有提到就是說是不是有可能因為台美的關係會越來越好那所以呢這一個在不久的將來這個賴總統有可能會過境美國前往拉丁美洲的友邦訪問"},{"start":173.191,"end":193.737,"text":"是 因為我們如果要到拉丁美洲國家過去啦 都是過境美國嘛那如果有這樣的安排那它當然是其中的一部分可是至於什麼時候會有這樣的安排那這當然由總統府他們這個是會對外發言在外交部的部分我們就是持續去促進台美的溝通那建立互信的基礎"},{"start":197.918,"end":216.595,"text":"那我想這個應該是常態啦所謂說元首外交的過境訪問是常態時候到了他就會出現所以有信心在關稅的問題高一個段落之後那有機會過境美國再前往我們的友邦來做訪問嗎"},{"start":217.216,"end":225.748,"text":"因為所謂的我們的元首出訪或過境都涉及到我們跟對方國家的適當的時間又什麼樣的一個活動那這個呢就是"},{"start":232.506,"end":249.996,"text":"我們應該講說關稅也好國防的預算也好這當然都是呈現台美友好而且是合作的一個發展但是這個基本上不是不同的事情可是當然"},{"start":251.377,"end":279.414,"text":"美台關係在這一年來我們可以看到並不如有一些人過去所擔心的會有所謂的這個疑美論或者是疑川論或疑賴論因為不只是這個法案連這個軍售美國也已經正式批准了第一批的軍售那台美關係的往來其實本來這一年來川普總統上任我們的溝通還有各種的這個協調包括"},{"start":280.174,"end":295.904,"text":"像涉及到的這種川習會啦或者是甚至這個川普跟高市首相的他們的電話溝通我們台灣都有相當的對情況的一個掌握那也跟美國有很好的溝通"},{"start":297.125,"end":326.195,"text":"那剛剛也很多委員在關心現在宏都拉斯正在進行總統大選的開票那現在比較親近台灣的兩位總統候選人都在領先那基本上不論是哪一位當選對於台灣應該都是非常的友善那所以大家也很關心就是說那是不是有機會台灣中華民國再跟宏都拉斯再恢復這個邦交關係因為富爾剛才提到嘛我們現在不是只有榮邦也希望能夠透邦"},{"start":327.496,"end":352.312,"text":"其實我們台灣跟宏都拉斯過去的邦誼是很好的只是因為現在這個總統上任之後他做了轉彎但是大家也發現一比較之後還是台灣模式比中國模式好中國的那種一帶一路透過大規模的可能援助然後請消但是答應的這些採購也都沒有實現所以當然他們會有民意的變化"},{"start":352.932,"end":369.504,"text":"而總統候選人就基於爭取人民的支持嘛就兩個領先的都是主張要恢復跟台灣的邦交我們就是以很正面的態度基於平等互惠的原則那我們都有跟各方啊"},{"start":370.024,"end":384.742,"text":"保持很好的溝通那也希望能夠來就是恢復我們台灣跟洪都拉斯的邦交關係所以我們外交部我們國安單位有做好準備了希望能夠恢復跟洪都拉斯的邦交對 其實我們都有"},{"start":385.743,"end":410.974,"text":"很好的管道跟這個其實是持續推動中才會有今天大家看到的這個結果那當然因為外交嘛又很多很多機敏性我們不方便在這個時候說不過這不是突然出現的事情那再請教一下除了洪都老師之外對巴拿馬的關係呢因為巴拿馬的國會議員也在11月的時候有來這一個台灣嘛對不對對 9位議員我也有接待"},{"start":411.814,"end":430.249,"text":"對 然後對巴拿馬的關係是不是也在交問當中因為根據媒體的報導我們駐巴拉圭的大使有提到說巴拿馬國內也正就加強與台灣的關係的可能性展開討論不過這是大概貿易這方面的那請教一下台灣跟巴拿馬目前的關係"},{"start":431.852,"end":459.367,"text":"台灣是巴拉馬第二大出口國我們的貨運包括尤其是航運公司使用巴拉馬運河也是算是最多的我想包括長榮跟陽明海運等實質的關係很密切當然因為現在巴拉馬運河的管轄權還有涉及到簽約那都涉及到美中之間的角力"},{"start":460.647,"end":470.693,"text":"連帶會影響巴拉馬趴在這方面他跟我們有很多交集我們也期待能夠台巴關係能夠正常化方向來發展好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"166134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d680c869ef712f3a7bd25403dec583eac6a14720b4e10c82cb64a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:17:39 - 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廠長 因為你是廠長 所以問你食物的 你自己了解是 副秘書長 不知道叫起來也不好不敢 不敢來 我請問一下 是就是回到這個要分財產的事情 是我們今天要討論這個稍稍的遺產的事情一般當中"},{"start":43.388,"end":69.003,"text":"去到範圍裡面要講財產的事情可能有幾個情形啦我分類可能有幾個情形啦你來看是不是要修正一下第一就是說今天早上不好今天早上要來分財產是很久沒看到兄弟姊妹是有本人來有的人明明就是美國也叫律師來是"},{"start":71.687,"end":93.722,"text":"阿嬤沒有結婚後 阿嬤就沒有他阿嬤就沒有他他們的兄弟姊妹在照顧或是兄弟姊妹的配偶在照顧譬如說阿嫂在照顧到現在已經結婚的阿嬤也沒有離婚或是阿嬤也沒有離婚"},{"start":96.94,"end":102.827,"text":"後來也要回本財產 是這都有回過了現在看起來哪一種最多"},{"start":107.116,"end":128.374,"text":"那個委員最多的就是剛剛你提的這個平常沒有一起相處或撫養或照顧但是等到繼承事實發生的時候才回來要主張的這個是蠻多的那這些人他怎麼知道他可以主張"},{"start":130.931,"end":155.191,"text":"我們調查的結果通常是因為在這個就是所謂的被繼承人就是這一位可能要過世前他可能身體有狀況那這些相關的旁系血清之息那等到他過世以後他就會出來主張他"},{"start":156.412,"end":168.48,"text":"這個要繼承他的順位那包括特留份好 那這個時候到了法院區的時候法官會進行什麼樣的程序來確認比如說可能他嫁兵雙時就都怕他老伯或是老公就都怕老婆或是這個哥哥都怕弟弟結果就貴姓旗出名記錶外都知道外都知道嘛"},{"start":184.326,"end":193.793,"text":"叫他回來搬的時候還是怎麼樣 大家會覺得說這搬的都會把這個搬給他他還有一個小弟 現在一一搬不然叫他回來把錢搬給他小弟也會有這種情形喔就是說大家都知道說這個人在照顧他沒有錯可是這個人呢 就常常打他常常打他 鄰居都知道這個人常常被打可是呢 這個財產可能要分給他 對吧那就會旁邊的人會看不慣"},{"start":214.656,"end":230.781,"text":"看不慣搞不好就會建議用的 去跟人家說欸 那過星期了 你可以回來搬財產不然都去給那個人搬 那搬搬去也會有這種情形嘛所以你們在法院實務上喔 這種事情你們都法官要怎麼處理"},{"start":232.658,"end":258.818,"text":"報告委員 有關於繼承的訴訟這樣的訴訟它一樣是屬於民事事件的一個法理所以要當事人進行主義兼有法官執權主義那當事人進行主義就要由當事人來主張那麼如果被繼承人申請他有立遺囑他對於施暴於他的人"},{"start":259.338,"end":265.982,"text":"他主張 他就已經例有說這個人不能繼承 喪失繼承權這是一種另外一個是共同繼承的繼承人他也可以來跟法院來申請起訴叫法院來裁判某位喪失繼承權這個就是剛剛委員說的有一些不肖的 一直施暴那麼"},{"start":283.672,"end":302.257,"text":"他的處理方式有剛剛的第一種就是先立一組讓他喪失繼承權第二個就是共同繼承人他也可以起訴主張這個是喪失繼承權但這個要舉證不過法官也有職權探知的必要"},{"start":303.237,"end":327.411,"text":"以維護這個所謂人倫跟社會共善良風俗這個是目前那至於說剛剛委員說的更嚴重就是說他就是想要來分財產而已結果造成真正在照顧被繼承人的的一個配偶啊或者是兄弟姐妹或者是他的反而是因為這樣而被沒有辦法安心"},{"start":330.953,"end":353.092,"text":"安心立命的住在原來的這個被繼承人的遺產的房屋住所那這個部分其實是法定的因紀份這些問題跟特留份的問題所以現在在考量修改是有必要的所以你這這東西我今天聽起來國際上每一個國家的法律聽起來我們想我們也沒有什麼共識對不對"},{"start":360.681,"end":383.232,"text":"就是說這個兄弟姊妹的特留份有共識嗎目前我們所分析收集的世界各國的法例已經隨著時代變遷都把它修改為這個兄弟姊妹這一部分的一個特留份這個都把它修掉了就是它的繼承沒有修掉了"},{"start":383.772,"end":412.259,"text":"那我國目前如果統合來看這個整個實務審判跟實際發生只有剩下三個部分它是可以例外補足的如果我們把它照國際的這樣的一個立法例把兄弟姊妹的繼承權就是繼承權跟印記本把它拿掉但是相關的法還有規定譬如說生前受撫養的兄弟姊妹那他可以請求走給遺產"},{"start":413.539,"end":420.342,"text":"另外呢那個被所謂的這個在照顧兄弟姊妹的這樣一個兄長以兄代父來照顧身心障礙的兄弟姊妹等那他可以屹立遺囑然後來將這些財產去照顧"},{"start":433.786,"end":445.165,"text":"譬如說這個小叔啦小姐啊 胖子他哥哥也過世了都阿嫂在照顧都沒人在照顧就這個阿嫂在照顧這種是我們現在的本財產跟本福"},{"start":447.742,"end":458.487,"text":"OK 那這樣的情形因為他們的一個第一個我們說他不是直系血親他不是 他是姻親他是屬於姻親而且這個小叔就這個嫂嫂因為她的先生過世了"},{"start":466.03,"end":480.762,"text":"那我們的婚姻關係是因為這個這個所謂的婚姻人死亡那個婚姻關係就解消了婚姻關節但身份關係影響的這一部分所以直接要去繼承他"},{"start":482.003,"end":506.747,"text":"就是這一個嫂嫂照顧叔叔那叔叔過世了嫂嫂要去繼承他的財產除非是生前第一個是生前有玉立遺囑用遺囑的方式那因為這個生前嫂嫂是來照顧這個叔叔啦還是問題說他現在玉立遺囑對不對小姐家玉立遺囑說沒有這個大嫂嘛"},{"start":510.808,"end":518.671,"text":"這小姐姐也有結婚啊還是小姐姐她母親不知道去哪裡去遊覽遊覽久了沒回來啊 也找沒人啊到時候被她母親 她母親回來說可以搬嘛對不對啊叫家庭結婚 都說不是啊 都這個阿嫂在說啊她母親就出國去遊覽久了都沒回來 這樣才有天理就是說會有這樣的 在社會上會有這樣的討論啊"},{"start":535.255,"end":562.432,"text":"確實有 確實啊這花瓜要怎麼處理花瓜只能按照現有的規定現有的法律來裁判啦依照現有法律來裁判那配偶本來他就有繼承權而且他回來以後還要先計算那個夫妻剩餘財產把他分完以後再來處理遺產的一個繼承OK 我一件事這樣啦這個花瓜法務部跟司法委員以後接下來討論這案子的時候"},{"start":564.019,"end":566.08,"text":"不然去做一個民調的啦我跟這條沒共識啦因為每個人遇到的個案都不一樣每個人的鄰居朋友講到那個案子就說啊 那個什麼人過世了"},{"start":579.141,"end":585.283,"text":"他們現在都在增產 現在在訴訟 什麼人叫什麼人訴訟他們的一個姪姪本土的孩子還回來 還有一個嫁去美國的 現在也嫁到蘇東來就是街頭巷尾 隔壁鄰居都在討論這種事情我覺得這個沒有共識的情況之下 這個大的原則啊 也許可以聽聽人民的聲音"},{"start":602.069,"end":616.392,"text":"他們有來提案的當然是一部分的人立法院的討論也是一部分可是這個社會上還是有很多這個法律在規範上就是說可能會漏掉或者是說我們立法院如果通過這個修法之後都叫社會沒事"},{"start":618.823,"end":628.126,"text":"因為有可能在這條巷子裡面就是有一戶他們的兄弟姊妹都不在照顧都什麼人在照顧結果我們通過這個法律整條巷子賣到死賣說你看上一戶那兄弟都不在照顧現在過了一星期又回到本財產那些都離婚依蟲了這樣我們又繼續所以我是說這個討論既然沒有共識沒有共識那是不是就是要不做一個民調什麼委員要了解一下因為有時候決策專家他是去"},{"start":648.484,"end":651.811,"text":"做國際上的這些比較 跟台灣現況也不一定相符以上讓你們參考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"166133","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166133","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6a42726e852efaef882f8c8e0c6b9e8aea14720b4e10c82cbb268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:18:15 - 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謝謝主席 那我請我們林部長請林部長好 部長好 先請教您一個個人的問題就是明年是縣市長的選舉您個人會有可能參選明年的縣市長選舉嗎"},{"start":25.595,"end":29.678,"text":"我目前沒有這個打算我現在的身份是外交部長我想請問 絕無可能嗎"},{"start":35.018,"end":58.436,"text":"我是認為這個問題我現在的身份不適合回答啦我現在是外交部長在備詢因為我們現在這麼關心所有的外交問題情勢瞬息外面還有包含我們的邦交國我現在就是把外交部長做好所以你目前只能回答我目前沒有這樣的考慮不是絕無可能 是嗎沒有 我覺得這個問題有陷阱"},{"start":65.189,"end":86.69,"text":"沒有 我覺得這個問題你再回避你再回避這個問題因為其實很重要因為你現在是外交部長就因為你現在是外交部長因為你要選明年縣市長的話可能明年這個上半年你可能就離開外交部長的位置了是不是我把外交部長的角色做好做一天和尚 壯一天忠嘛"},{"start":87.884,"end":116.919,"text":"那另外部長就是有關於就是最近有關於我們的就是中日之間的關係還有面臨到台灣我們現在感謝這個高市這個他所講的就是對台灣的支持那我想請問一下您現在還會那個來鼓勵說國人要多到日本去觀光嗎"},{"start":119.139,"end":139.272,"text":"有啊還是我知道當然我們出去觀光旅遊該注意的事情都要注意如果你要安排還沒有決定去處那日本會是一個很好的選擇第一件事情我個人認為我們對於日本表示感謝這個是合理的"},{"start":139.972,"end":163.649,"text":"但是我們一味的去鼓勵國人到日本觀光對於我們的國旅業者來講對他們來說他們真的會非常的難過因為我們現在國旅非常慘第二點日本最近流感事實上是大蔓延大流行所以我還是要提醒我們的外交部長"},{"start":164.389,"end":171.056,"text":"就是當你以外交部長的身份去鼓勵國人到日本觀光的時候還是請外交部長也能夠顧慮到你也當過交通部長嘛對不對我跟國旅也很熟啊我都很支持他們"},{"start":181.506,"end":198.912,"text":"當我們的政府如果一味的去鼓勵到日本觀光那麼我們國旅的業者那對他們來講是有衝擊的那另外就是日本最近這個流感非常嚴重所以我覺得也應該要去提醒國人好另外就是"},{"start":200.632,"end":219.8,"text":"就是現在我們一直在討論的包含這個洪都拉斯現在看起來我們比較樂觀因為現在青台的這個候選人雖然他們還在焦灼但是青台的候選人這兩位雖然他們倆很接近但是應該基本上他們有可能出現"},{"start":221.221,"end":250.621,"text":"那所以很多人認為說那會不會呢就是洪都拉斯在政權變天之後能夠重新跟台灣跟中華民國能夠恢復邦交我不曉得對部長您的評估如果洪都拉斯他真的他的政權變天清台的候選人當選請問您有把握嗎你有信心嗎能夠重新恢復邦交"},{"start":251.561,"end":271.174,"text":"外交是兩國的關係當然我們是對於特定國家如果基於平等互惠的原則下來建立邦交的關係我們是會開放的態度而且很積極來推動所以我們會積極重新拉攏回來 對不對"},{"start":272.677,"end":279.863,"text":"我正在推龍邦計畫就是說有示範性比如說我們現在在宏都拉斯旁邊的瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯我們有龍邦計畫他們會看到所以我們以前是強調固邦我現在是強調龍邦我知道 我看到吳次長說你是現在歷任部長裡面最重視跟我們邦交國的關係的一個部長有人說他是不是在偷湊之前的吳釗燮部長"},{"start":301.821,"end":329.378,"text":"那我想請問一下過去吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候他也在根據他的媒體的訪問他也說好多跟我們中華民國斷交的國家後來都後悔啦都後悔因為後來發現跟這個中華民國斷交然後跟這個中華人民國建交也沒得到什麼好處可是問題是他還點名了好多個什麼馬拉威哥斯大黎加還有這邊一大堆叭叭叭叭"},{"start":330.959,"end":334.716,"text":"可是問題是 沒有一個我們的前邦交國回頭"},{"start":336.821,"end":353.653,"text":"目前為止 我們的困境就是我們斷交之後 他們回頭好難啊 是吧是不是 讓他們回頭很困難因為中共國際上的影響力很大那我請問一下洪都拉斯第一個 因為有白蝦問題嘛他認為台灣買的白蝦比較積極那只是一個議題 其實最重要的是中共的產品傾銷打擊他的經濟跟就業 請問一下"},{"start":365.287,"end":379.438,"text":"如果洪都拉斯他變天清台的這個候選人當選美國會不會幫助台灣讓洪都拉斯重新跟中華民國建交 您的評估是什麼"},{"start":380.319,"end":407.27,"text":"美國的態度當然現在很重視西半球嘛包括國務卿Marco Rubio到瓜地馬拉也講說肯定他們跟台灣也是邦交但是我們能不能跟特定國家發展邦交關係還是取決於我們這兩國的我們自己的國家的利益跟民意的支持那美國的態度當然多少會有影響可是過去的經驗也證明我們跟對象國家之間能不能建立一起互惠"},{"start":409.512,"end":424.951,"text":"過去巴拿馬跟我們斷交的時候事實上美國並不希望巴拿馬跟中華民國斷交應該知道只是後來還是沒有辦法阻擋但是至少當時美國表達態度希望巴拿馬不要跟中華民國斷交"},{"start":426.448,"end":442.226,"text":"那我想請問一下這一次川普大力的介入了洪都拉斯的大選好 當然他有他的很多的目的但是其中跟我們恢復邦交的部分你現在有任何的訊息或有任何的把握美國會幫助我們嗎"},{"start":444.362,"end":459.894,"text":"應該說美國在川普總統更重視西半球然後包括國務卿盧比歐他也是有這樣的一個背景所以這個是比較正面的這個環境但是我意思說要恢復邦交不是簡單的事情中共的影響力很大但是我是基於說如果兩邊的國家發展我們有龍邦計畫那我們就不用建立在過去的一種"},{"start":469.661,"end":479.267,"text":"比較屬於涉及到的一些大家批評的一些方式我們現在就是用這種方法在顧邦跟拓邦我們稍微站起來了 時間到了但是你的回答表示你沒有信心所以我覺得可以做一個努力也請美國來幫助我們如果我們希望能夠試圖跟孔都拉斯恢復邦交也請美國拿出很明確的態度就如同當年的巴拿馬斷交一樣"},{"start":496.198,"end":505.023,"text":"拿出明確的態度來協助中華民國能夠重新讓我們把這個邦交國要回來可不可以可以好 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主席謝謝麻煩我們請警政署署長跟我們法務部次長加署長加次長好 署長我先請教12月1號我們打債儀表板"},{"start":17.318,"end":41.155,"text":"我們打詐詐騙的金額有多少12月1號就大概2億多2億多2億4千5百萬對就是12月1號就是12月開始了沒錯因為你現在打在儀表板上面只有12月1號的數字昨天的還沒有出來對昨天的應該是會在前天的會出來這是前一天的好那9月呢"},{"start":42.236,"end":59.04,"text":"九月我們全台灣被詐騙的九月大概七十幾億吧六十七億十月大概六十億十一月大概五十九億五十九億九千萬所以其實十月跟十一月幾乎一樣就差不多六十億再加上您剛剛所證實我們雜案飆版的數字"},{"start":62.989,"end":91.606,"text":"12月1號2億4500萬所以其實詐騙金額雖然有略幅的下降但是它會變成是有一個門檻平均一年都一天2億多一個月有60億的被詐騙金額這個是到目前為止這是客觀數據我們即便是已經講了那麼多過去還有講是說這都是有報案記錄的那有沒有未報案的黑數"},{"start":92.906,"end":118.526,"text":"也許有但是這個數據是絕對是是真實的這個報案完之後用電腦間接很好嘛本席現在都是在本席現在都是以一個科學的方向因為我們要共同努力就是要打擊詐騙嘛但現在的詐騙金額被詐騙金額不是一天一千萬兩千萬是一天一億兩億"},{"start":119.947,"end":147.363,"text":"而且一個月60億那即便是這個案件數字我們常講對於被害者來講他不是0跟100啊他不是那個金額的高低啊他是被騙了就是那麼多錢啊他的付出他的損傷他一生的秩序就那麼多啊所以我們猜想是說以現在我們通過那麼多的法令不管是過去打詐是法打詐無法或是我們現在又在討論要更精進要加重刑責處分"},{"start":148.789,"end":170.267,"text":"署長你認為除了現在我們有做以外還有沒有可以更積極有效的方式所以我們這個炸防條例在去年7月通過之後經過這一年來的這樣的施行我們認為還有要更經濟的地方所以我們今天要把炸防條例的這個刑者刑罰的部分修得更嚴格一點沒錯 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張署長好 部長好 還有署長好"},{"start":14.522,"end":37.808,"text":"最近有一個議題其實受到我們社會大眾高度的關心就是台鐵在今年不斷的發生暴力攻擊然後現在也面臨到可是問題是我們現在鐵路警察的人數不足而且事實上這幾年都是下降的所以對於台鐵工會來說如果鐵路警察人數不足"},{"start":38.968,"end":62.611,"text":"但是台鐵的員工又面臨這種暴力攻擊所以他們提出是希望能夠增聘保全所以我想請問一下署長的看法我們在短時間內我們鐵路警察的人數可以增加嗎如果不能增加的話是不是支持"},{"start":63.451,"end":90.343,"text":"就是為了免除台鐵的員工面對這些暴力攻擊而應該去增聘保全的謝謝委員現在鐵路的這個員警那在短期內因為是要全國橫平性所以短期內警力應該也沒辦法就是滿足到整個一個這樣的充足那我非常支持就是台鐵要推動保全人力常態的一個配置這個絕對支持"},{"start":92.432,"end":120.64,"text":"絕對支持這個應該徵聘保全好那至於鐵路人數不足鐵路警察人數不足的問題那你們有沒有做一些相關的規劃我們也會啦就是說會從這個學校的一個這個招生的這個畢業的學生那跟整個我們全國的各縣市警察局以及我們署組的各相關單位我們就會做比例橫平性的來做一個派譜"},{"start":121.563,"end":148.882,"text":"所以在这个部分也应该同步去增加但是在这一段时间因为今年就发生14起的案件而且越来越离谱所以基本上短期内以征聘保全但是我觉得从中长期我们铁路警察人数也应该压不住没问题我想部长应该也支持支持这样的方向谢谢署长时间暂停一下我再请我们法务部次长"},{"start":149.963,"end":153.692,"text":"來 時間暫停一下欸 部長 那個劉部長還是請留步請保聽"},{"start":158.237,"end":181.736,"text":"好 部長 次長在我們這次炸房條例的修正裡面新增加了第50條第二項這是有感於很多的炸團炸騙一般民眾的錢然後他們過非常豪奢的生活實在違反社會觀感而且傷害這種被害者的感情"},{"start":182.443,"end":196.085,"text":"所以我們有禁車條款那我先想請教次長禁車條款訂定之後到底什麼樣的狀況會加重騎行別說是豪車"},{"start":197.813,"end":217.689,"text":"豪宅還是還是有什麼包養很多女人這樣子的一個狀況但是問題是他們也可以切割啊比如說他他脫產到時候又不符合這個禁奢條款所以我想請問一下次長你所謂的禁奢條款的定義是什麼謝謝委員我想草案院版草案第50條的第二項有關於禁奢條款的規定它不是加重即行的規定"},{"start":228.035,"end":243.586,"text":"它是一個量刑的規定所以有第二項裡面的這六種情形那這個六種情形如果我們司法警察或者檢察官有發現我們把相關的事證提供給法院的法官那就這六個情形的話請法院從眾量刑對是量刑的量刑那你們不會你們在起訴的時候也會根據這種計收條款的標準"},{"start":254.661,"end":278.623,"text":"會 這個部分絕對是良心參考我們在起訴書裡面也一併帶這個會牽扯到說他可能不賠償被害人的損失再加上這個有禁捨的這些條件沒有啊 但是即便他賠償被害人的損失待會我有時間我也講你這個什麼和解那很多這裡面都犯罪集團啊 黑道啊他要跟你和解被害人不想和解有時候還不行耶"},{"start":280.319,"end":288.494,"text":"那又是另外一個問題對我知道我知道但是會有這樣的問題因為我先把先把focus在這個禁攝條款那我想請教一下部長來"},{"start":290.219,"end":315.053,"text":"部長就以您個人你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下比如說我們今天看到詐騙集團他什麼樣的生活的豪奢的狀況之下法院應該從重量刑因為詐騙已經很可惡了你還可以過得這麼豪奢像既然這次有這個所謂的禁奢條款因為我自己提案也有禁奢條款你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下應該加重處罰"},{"start":318.214,"end":343.299,"text":"謝謝委員我們非常贊成委員的禁車條款的部分那現在我們看到了一般市面上如果你有豪車豪宅土地精品等等或者是說他到高單價的這個餐廳去用餐這個就是符合50條裡面的6款的這個部分的話我們就希望在禁車條款裡面把它加進去那假設我另外一個他如果包養很多很多人算不算"},{"start":345.011,"end":373.806,"text":"也算吧 養很多人 包養包養小三之類的 你說包養算吧 對不對我覺得這個部分怎麼樣讓我們的被害人的感情不要被這樣傷害另外就是講和解 我們這次裡面有和解可以讓他減刑或者免除刑責但是非常重要的是這些黑道這些犯罪組織他如果是脅迫性和解"},{"start":374.486,"end":400.819,"text":"如果是脅迫性和解他根本不應該被減刑啊對不對他也不應該被免除刑責啊不是他以為他這個事件爆發他就可以賠錢了事所以我覺得在這一個部分如何保護被害人即便他在被詐騙之後還要不受脅迫不受脅迫然後被迫和解只是為了換來這些詐團他去免除刑責或者是減刑好不好這一點非常重要好以上謝謝"},{"start":402.674,"end":402.694,"text":"謝謝 感謝"}]}},{"id":"166135","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d67221f0ca60c70cc64cd0246cdf0bd28ba14720b4e10c82cb1f8b1bbbc21182005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:26:49 - 11:33:14","影片長度":"00:06:25","會議時間":"2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n本院委員林宜瑾等22人、委員劉建國等16人、委員徐巧芯等17人、委員李坤城等22人、委員廖先翔等19人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等18人、委員郭昱晴等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、蘇巧慧等17人、委員吳琪銘等17人、委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員張智倫等16人、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員葉元之等17人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等21人、委員張宏陸等17人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」、委員葉元之等17人、委員吳沛憶等16人分別擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第六條之二條文修正草案」、委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「動物保護法第三十二條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十三條條文修正草案」以及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二及第三十三條之二條文修正草案」、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「動物保護法第三條及第五條條文修正草案」及本院委員邱若華等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二、第三十三條之二及第三十三條之三條文修正草案」\n（請參閱開會通知單及議程）（僅詢答））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-12-03","start_time":"2025-12-03T11:26:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-12-03T11:33:14+08:00","duration":385,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-4-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.09596875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.09159375,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.245968750000003,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.24159375,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.996593750000002,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.72596875,"end":35.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.94534375,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.90721875,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.05034375,"end":38.775968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.400343750000005,"end":41.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.55159375,"end":56.494718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.74784375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.055343750000006,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.65409375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.42096875,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.80846875,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.67284375,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.25909375,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.30971875,"end":80.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.86221875000001,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.95909375000001,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.87034375,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.92909375,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.11034375,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.54471875,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.39659375000001,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.25721875,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.70846875000001,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.52221875000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.84284375,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.52596875,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.83721875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.95534375000001,"end":108.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":108.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.36846875,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.19534375,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.42721875000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.16534375,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.22721875,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.71659375,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.34409375,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.36096875,"end":129.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.52534375000002,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.67721875,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.38159375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"sp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請找農業部請杜志"},{"start":22.045,"end":40.126,"text":"委員好市長因為大家都非常關心動物保護啦然後也提了很多動保法的修正法案那為什麼你們的那個版本都一直不送來啊是為什麼啊有人覺得大家提的沒有什麼意義還是還是動保不重要還是怎麼樣因為我發現現在"},{"start":42.088,"end":54.617,"text":"其實台灣的社會蠻重視動物保護這一塊的尤其是如果有看到動物被虐待啊甚至於有一些其他的傷害的情勢其實大家都很憤慨你們有注意到台灣社會的這樣的大家關心這個議題嗎"},{"start":56.846,"end":75.246,"text":"其实不止社会其实我们这个委员会里面大家也都很重视对当然啊所以提了38个那为什么只有农业部不重视啊没有我们也很重视啊那为什么法案为什么不赶快提来呢我们是把这个大家提的意见其实有经验过啦因为有共识的希望所以你们不会有版本了"},{"start":76.178,"end":102.481,"text":"我們會儘快把行政院版本送起來你們會不會有版本一定會有 我們儘快把行政院版本送起來你們會有版本嗎我們有版本那有版本為什麼不趕快送來呢這是卡在哪裡卡在行政院哪個高官不重視動保都重視 都非常重視都重視那是卡在哪裡是還在細心雕琢那個文字還是怎麼樣還是公文旅行因為這個問題大家問很多次了就是每一次來假設大家都在問這件事情的話代表"},{"start":103.722,"end":123.59,"text":"農業部或行政院不重視嗎你們農業部送到行政院沒我們過去了已經過去多久了因為其實就像剛剛委員你們出農業部多久沒有啦 我有跟他們說其實社會就是大家對這件事情的重視度很高所以行政院那邊希望把這個沒有 你們送出去多久了嘛"},{"start":126.291,"end":148.476,"text":"應該11月有經過政務會議討論過了嘛11月你們11月才送出去沒有啦我們之前送進去你們之前是去年就送了你們去年就送了送進去了那行政院到底在忙什麼忙了一年多希望把大家有共識的經驗出來送進來那你們有去問要多久嗎我們一直在催因為大家都很重視"},{"start":149.216,"end":166.445,"text":"那是卡在左宗泰院長不會啦 就是有共識的版本出來就一定會馬上送到立法院所以是行政院很沒共識喔謝謝委員支持不是講這個官話啦是真的是太誇張了吧你們去年就送了你們去年就送了我記得農業部長還來過這邊我們還跟他詢答過欸"},{"start":169.841,"end":188.904,"text":"然後結果行政院拖一年多完全不當一回事都在忙什麼大罷免喔不是都已經結束了嗎還在忙動物保護議題因為很重要太誇張了啦現在大家幾件事情我覺得大家應該都有共識吧你如果虐待動物加重其刑或罰則"},{"start":190.524,"end":206.373,"text":"還有收容廠的一些問題收容量呢都要提升嘛是沒有問題嘛是那上一次我在質詢部長的時候那時候我自己有提一個修正案啦應該是新增的就是如果說有"},{"start":207.313,"end":221.902,"text":"大量動物的收容所應該要納入縣市管理啦然後可是農業部的回應文字上的回應是講說不妥啦為什麼呢因為有些收容所他可能有地木啊各種型態啊所以納管會有困難"},{"start":222.802,"end":240.215,"text":"那當時我就不以為然啦因為我就印象當中之前比如說工廠也有很多地下工廠是衛利案也是有土地問題但是經濟部就可以訂一個衛利案工廠的管理辦法把它逐步納入管理那為什麼像收容所動物收容所這種就沒辦法"},{"start":240.735,"end":255.845,"text":"你如果不納管的話裡面出現虐待動物各種情勢你無法你可能比較難掌握或後續的一些處理嘛那部長後來當下他覺得確實文字不妥啦那我不知道說這件事情農業部後來有朝向哪個方向"},{"start":256.656,"end":281.626,"text":"应该是说不是不管啦因为其实他只要有收容动物这一块其实还是要去辅导要去理解特别是在 猎管猎管对是有猎管因为其实就是说包括他的免疫注射也好他对动物饲养的状况其实都要去所以应该嘛应该应该啦因为我在我花一个分钟问另外一个议题那个反正你们赶快送啦好不好大家才比较更能聚焦然后我问一下我听说啦那个液态炉的"},{"start":282.56,"end":301.344,"text":"會有一個平益價格的委員會過去都是9月10月就開了今年到現在都還沒開可能是12月底才會開我推測這應該是跟台北的關稅談判有關可能是不是台灣這邊已經確定要開放美國的義太盧了"},{"start":301.909,"end":326.426,"text":"那開放美國的液態爐因為現在的美國液態爐進來台灣是有跟是WTO的規定嘛有一定的配額是關稅15%超過配額的話關稅會更高那現在如果說是比較沒有關稅的話美國液態爐進來那一定是消費者的福音啦因為像Costco的牛奶就很便宜嘛那農業部現在的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":329.447,"end":349.295,"text":"那對農民的衝擊你們這個有提出相對應的保護措施嗎應該這樣講乳價平益委員會其實是由弱農跟乳廠組成的其實農業部不在那裡面所以價格是由農業部可以影響農業部每次都說比如說淡價委員會淡農的事跟我無關或者誰怎麼樣其實農業部都可以影響都撇一乾二淨"},{"start":349.795,"end":378.932,"text":"乳價評議委員因為我們沒有在裡面啦他們要開會其實我們是樂觀其成就是大家把這個價格對接好嘛因為其實弱農生產的先好那關稅的問題欸關稅的問題要乳廠去收才能到消費者關稅的問題你不知道該不關那個吧因為一定是有關啦一定是有關的沒關係你可能不方便講啦我只是講說看起來可能對台灣的農業會衝擊很大啦相信你們應該已經做好相對應的措施了吧"},{"start":380.06,"end":380.985,"text":"不管關稅怎麼談農業部絕對支持臺灣農業OK 好 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我們從過去我們台灣這麼多的這個合併案裡面我們已經非常非常清楚知道保護的權益不會在任何合併上產生任何的變動我想這是應該是從過去的經驗包括我們整個監理措施跟實際的這個案例都證明這一點"},{"start":81.654,"end":104.387,"text":"剛剛委員提到兩個問題一個財務黑洞我在猜是因為過去在那之前因為我們在因為整個受險業的所謂它的資本氏族是隨著整個經濟環境變動而變動比如說現在利率的關係它的評價就會產生一個比如說資產的減損或者利率的降低就會增加負債的提撥這隨時都在變動當中所以"},{"start":107.228,"end":134.082,"text":"我們在整併過程當中已經針對這個財務上面已經做好了一些的相關的審查合併是兩家公司的合併該有的財務黑洞不會消失或是該有的財務負擔增資需求不會消失當然風險移轉的部分我們本來是兩家經貨公司合併然後接下來第二步就是兩家經貨公司同性子子公司的合併我想這個大概就是過去的既有的"},{"start":134.862,"end":152.79,"text":"對 因為我們都很清楚因為台新跟星光他們兩家的體質這個差異是很明顯的是很明顯的那這個診病的風險我們就是要避免轉嫁到投資人或者是保護的身上好不好 主委我想這個沒有問題應該是不會好 那我想在"},{"start":153.79,"end":175.647,"text":"請教主委就是今天審查營養法第125條提高非法吸金案件的刑者以嚇阻犯罪這是全民期待的台灣人對於這個詐騙深惡痛絕但是詐騙的手法推陳出新變化多端我們就看上個月打詐以表版的數據上個月的詐騙案件就有13673件那財損金額達到60億4400萬"},{"start":182.412,"end":209.379,"text":"就財損的方面看起來這個假投資詐騙共損失了24億8319萬佔總財損的41.1%所以打造預表板這幾個月的數字其實都是這邊多一下那邊少一下沒有固定下降的趨勢表示說這個打造的效果有限而且假投資詐騙每個月都是財損的第一名遠遠大過於其他的這些詐騙手法"},{"start":211.673,"end":228.207,"text":"非法吸收存款就是等於直接跟人民拿錢直接榨取人民手上的錢跟我們跟所謂的地下會對的違規行為從中賺取手續費跟會差是完全不同的兩件事情所以金管會對於這次修法態度是什麼"},{"start":229.068,"end":248.869,"text":"我想跟委員報告我剛才在那個報告裡面包括我們法務部代表都已經提過了就是說我們現行銀行法本來就對這個地下匯兌跟非法吸金是視同一個等同的重大金融犯罪我們對這個所謂的犯罪的金額做一個差別化的量刑那我們"},{"start":249.73,"end":274.935,"text":"本來就是如果超過1億元就是超過1億元以上的話我們是加重其刑我想這次委員的提案是希望把所謂的地下會隊把它從整個會隊的金額把它限縮成實質的所得某種程度來講的話它可能產生是降低它的刑責的苛求剛剛我們在前面幾位委員的"},{"start":277.695,"end":294.97,"text":"報告裡面也提到這個不管是非法吸金不管是剛才講的提到的就是所謂的非法的匯兌對整個台灣的金融市場的安定跟整個都是產生非常重大還有包括有高度的洗錢風險所以我們對剛剛那個修法我們建議還是在整個"},{"start":295.931,"end":315.464,"text":"環境而且整個社會氛圍在沒有改變的情況之下我們認為是這樣特別是比如說我們這次打詐專法裡面大家有社會共識對於車手這部分我們希望把它從所謂的他的實質所得改成整個犯罪所得我想趨勢民眾厭惡詐騙 厭惡犯罪行為我想大概是這樣的一個相同所以我們還是比較建議說維持現行的條文"},{"start":317.625,"end":334.831,"text":"好 主委除了剛剛提到這個非法吸金跟地下匯兌其實不只投資人像我們的一般的學生或者是沒有在投資的也會被詐騙虛擬遊戲虛擬遊戲的這個代幣也是一個重災區你們有沒有做過統計分析說虛擬點數 遊戲點數還有娛樂省點數這一類的他們這些非金融機構發行但是已經具有金融金流功能的這些"},{"start":346.254,"end":364.742,"text":"這些項目在所有的詐騙案中的占比是多少他的受害者的年齡分布是多少因為這個其實跟我們抱歉這不是我們監管我們當然不會有這個數字的所以當然這可能比如說其他整體打詐看看其他部位比如說速發部他們有沒有這樣一個主委提醒就是說有個新的問題就是說"},{"start":366.617,"end":386.036,"text":"這一類誘導購買點數它會讓我們所謂的這個詐團洗錢鍊就是說有個行為叫代儲代替儲值就是說詐團用比官方更便宜的價格比如說市場的四折到七折"},{"start":386.876,"end":407.222,"text":"比如說官方的3800點數要3290元但是代儲只要2500元用這樣子的方式來吸引玩家玩家會以為說他賺到了但是其實這是一整條完整的炸團洗錢鍊用炸團的不法資金透過黑市暗網兌換成這個加密貨幣然後再以加密貨幣兌換會對P2P的網站然後換成可儲值的這種禮物卡"},{"start":415.244,"end":440.243,"text":"取得禮物卡之後再以市價的4到7折來協助玩家儲值那我們金管會扮演的角色是金流的把關者嘛 對不對那這對於這種新興的張著一個洗錢的一個產業鏈這種新型態的金流我發覺我們金管會在這裡面的角色不夠啦所以說是不是完全沒有去注意到這個相關的部分"},{"start":441.585,"end":456.511,"text":"我想說就是因為假設他透過我們金融機構的帳戶的部分如果有提醒的話我們當然會把它列入我們的那個考量來看看納管對不對其實我們本來就已經對所有的洗錢的經理我們都是在這個這個人簽到其他部會他們在"},{"start":460.157,"end":485.291,"text":"所以我可不可以說就是要求請主委去研議這個問題就是說把虛擬的道具點數賬號的買賣第三方交易平台必須設立公司登記提供完整的交易紀錄跟用戶資料納入金管會的治安相關的法規來監管做這樣子的一個推動可以嗎我想這部分我們那個我可不可以簡短請我們主講好 簡單說明一下"},{"start":487.132,"end":503.838,"text":"根委員報告那個遊戲點數業者數位部已經有著手做相關的管理那至於就是說這個代儲的部分如果是透過那個信用卡來進行代儲的話我們也有要求對特電進行相關的一個查核對 所以我們金管會在這個跨部會的合作裡面就扮演的就是金流把關者"},{"start":504.418,"end":530.926,"text":"所以我在這邊才要求金管會要求主委說在這一個新的這種行為跟這樣子一個詐團利用這樣子的方式在洗錢的這部分金管會來要求好不好就我們從現有剛剛局長報告現有的制度你有沒有來強化因為如果不納管的話這等於是在幫助洗錢其實我們就剛才講過就是我們跟現有跨部會合作的機制裡面我們來強化這樣的一個措施"},{"start":532.122,"end":536.329,"text":"好的 謝謝主委謝謝好 謝謝袁寬和委員質詢好 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"166126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166126","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6d5f69df76f961cea0bc060c38740833ea14720b4e10c82cbd9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:59:05 - 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好聽障的我們可以多辦"},{"start":127.245,"end":154.776,"text":"那最後不就偏移了嗎因為現在是你的KPI的設定上面會造成某些障礙類型的選手或是民眾他是永遠無法參與的謝謝委員的提醒這的確是沿用過去運動愛台灣的一個方式但是我們現在要推的方向是共融的也就是我們推出來的活動的本身是可以適合不同類型的障礙別一起來參與所以我們不會希望只獨厚某一種障礙別"},{"start":155.336,"end":184.321,"text":"我懂 目標是這樣可是KPI這樣設定最後就會找成便宜的結果啦因為我自己在民間過去我們也辦了非常多兒童參與式設計嘛那我們也有邀請肢體障礙 腦麻 聽障 自閉的孩子都一起來加入嘛所以我非常深切的去了解到不同樣的孩子他所需要的支持是非常非常 落差非常大的所以這個資源如果說今天我們雖然是要共融那你今天20萬可能某種程度你只能你有說你要融幾項嗎也沒有嘛 對不對"},{"start":185.041,"end":199.856,"text":"只要有龍就算了嘛所以我是不是只要有龍字臂龍聽障就好了我不用龍肢體障礙啊所以我就說你這個KPI設定是有問題的啊所以是不是可以再去修正這個KPI的方式一定可以一定可以因為這樣子我們才能夠去確保說不會有人因此而被排擠是"},{"start":200.657,"end":229.617,"text":"好不好这是私隐运动最重要我们就是希望让更多种不同的障碍类型的民众都可以加入我们推广的目的是这样那我们就应该执行的做法KPA的设定都要能够回应这件事情好那再来下一个问题是有关于性别平权好一样回来讲讲足球足球我们现在在学校组我们今天就以少年杯跟学童杯来看次长应该很清楚的可以看到男女生的人数"},{"start":230.699,"end":232.444,"text":"喔 懸差非常非常大欸"},{"start":234.307,"end":260.159,"text":"那我們現在女足的成績其實蠻好的對不對我們在世界上成績蠻好的可是我們這次大專我們光這是少年盃學童盃到大專盃更淒慘耶大專盃我們現在齁這個女生的賽事呢基本上非常有限然後她還是在一個非常不利的位置所以我想要問一下我們到底要如何來提升女性足球員我們的做法到底是什麼"},{"start":262.792,"end":282.511,"text":"這個是一個很難回答的問題因為它是個系統性的我們會努力的去支持女性的運動因為組隊在地方組隊在學校會不會有人去參與我們要努力的是掃除或減少它的障礙至於到底有多少隊可以來報名說實話我"},{"start":285.835,"end":301.312,"text":"我想因为我们要推广一个运动都应该是要我们的技术总监朱邪技术总监应该要对整件事情有一个全面的想法因为今年刚好我有一些事情也是有跟朱邪在沟通但是我们的做法都并不是真的去promote女性的足球员的运动"},{"start":301.892,"end":322.487,"text":"所以我想這個部分是不是可以來去跟主席好好的討論這是第一個部分那第二個我們可不可以借鏡國外我有幾個建議就是說我們現在從國際的經驗都有一個制度性的解方從澳洲跟美國他們都有去透過相關的法令針對女性編族相關的發展預算"},{"start":322.907,"end":344.906,"text":"所以从预算上面去支持不要去假装男女都是平等因为我们在女性真的在运动场上有结构性的弱势特别是到青少年时期就会有整个大断层会出现所以我们没有相关的一些赛制上面去支持她们那这个就会从预算上面要来支持所以我们是不是可以确保我们在不管是大专联赛中学的"},{"start":345.626,"end":363.573,"text":"足球聯賽或是基層我們有支持的賽事我們都可以確保其中有固定的比例經費要來去支持女生組一定會這個樣子這也是我們繼續要努力的一個方向我在內部討論的時候有跟我們的業務同仁討論到我們一定要去縮短這樣子的一個落差"},{"start":365.094,"end":378.14,"text":"那我希望就是這個預算的編列是不是也可以提供給我們你們大概要用什麼樣子的方向來去編是多少的比例那這個大概是什麼時候可以提供給我們讓我們知道你們的一個方向規劃"},{"start":379.471,"end":398.405,"text":"因為我們現在只能規劃因為預算已經編出去了我們只是在未來執行端我們在我們可以主導的部分我們一定會想盡辦法去縮短你預算編出去可是你預算編出去可以設定裡面有多少比例嘛對不對所以多少比例這個是你們大概現在有討論了嗎還是還沒有討論比例的百分比還沒有討論出來但是大概什麼時候可以討論出來給我們呢讓我們知道有多少的比例"},{"start":401.247,"end":429.877,"text":"实际参与的状况因为如果参与的现阶段的人数不多我们如果编太多也不是很好但是反过来我们要先了解一下实行的状况我们一定会想尽办法去缩短这样的落差那这样子好不好一个建议盘点一下这几年其实我们都有女生组的赛事我们到底投资了我们盘点一下我们过去放在女生组的资源到底是多少比例经费上面到底是多少我们从这里面去了解之后我们再来看看未来我们要如何去promote对不对是"},{"start":430.237,"end":440.844,"text":"好 那這個盤點大概什麼時候可以給我應該是我們主辦的賽事啊對 你們主辦的賽事啊你們主辦的賽事啊 什麼時候可以盤點給我"},{"start":444.417,"end":460.704,"text":"包委員可不可以近兩年的近兩年OK我沒有問題近兩年OK那什麼時候兩個禮拜一個月好那就一個月那抱歉補一下KPI的部分重新設定這個部分什麼時候可以給我們不然你這個就要下去了"},{"start":461.444,"end":473.051,"text":"我們馬上會去處理這件事情好不好因為這個的確是KPI需要調整一下但是他應該要跟縣市政府去討論所以要有結果可能不會那麼快但是我們會立刻去做這樣的事情對 那這大概什麼時候因為你們討論也要時間但是什麼時候可以讓我們知道嗎"},{"start":479.567,"end":496.754,"text":"現階段我們市長是說已經公告但是我們再去調整看看再去討論看看可以討論的範圍還是要給我個時間嘛我怎麼知道你要討論多久一個月好 我一個月之後都會去追這些事情好 那再來一個就是協會的良善治理一樣是從主協的角度來看"},{"start":497.794,"end":524.666,"text":"就是说前阵子呢我其实也有咨询这个我们的政事中次长就是我们对于足协我们都希望良善治理那也有提供了一些说法是什么电子金流啊但是我其实有发现一个非常实务上面的问题抱歉再接点时间我们现在这个表是我们去做实地访评的流程表可以看到总共的时间大概只有两个小时左右最后加个座谈了不起三个小时三个小时"},{"start":525.746,"end":539.165,"text":"我們能看到什麼我們大學的訪評是多久高校評鑑最少一天尤其是要兩天看性質如果是完整的高校評鑑要兩天的時間"},{"start":540.872,"end":555.08,"text":"呃 可能還會更長喔 可能齁這邊高教平間我今天所知的他前半段的輔導會很長對實地訪評兩天對 可是我們現在基本上我們實地訪評跟參閱資料跟座談就三小時"},{"start":556.201,"end":580.292,"text":"所以這才會造成是說我們有很多的資料看不出來因為你大概只能去做格式只能去看看說這個選訊那個什麼文件有沒有問題大概只能做這些事情所以上次監察院提出來的這個財務選訊是否不公等等是看不出來的所以我認為這都不是一天可以解決問題我們現在的訪評機制應該要調整才對目前正在調整當中那我們是目前會往哪個方向來調整呢"},{"start":580.532,"end":603.384,"text":"我們會朝著頻率增加我們會把財務的集合拉出來我們會把財務拉出來另外去做我們會加強輔導也就是說我們在未來的指標我們去重新訂定因為以前的指標陳如委員現在所看到的確非常的表面時間很短我們會去訂定指標根據過去所發生過的狀況我們會訂出明確的指標"},{"start":606.666,"end":629.014,"text":"到時候我們去訪試的時候就會針對這些指標去做訪查然後訪查結果之後再反過來另外一端的輔導要求他們那個地方沒做好的讓他去改善也就是輔導跟訪評其實是一個連續性的過程而且是持續永久永遠不會停止的一個過程了解 所以這個看起來已經有在討論大概什麼時候可以給我們初步的規劃呢"},{"start":630.475,"end":641.649,"text":"你們現在是預計什麼我們年底以前就會完成年底以前就會完成喔那我要講喔因為明年就要開始執行對喔我要講喔因為其實現在協會根本不怕你們來仿拼啦坦白說因為拼得不好補助還是可以照拿"},{"start":643.651,"end":661.817,"text":"所以因為他們現在的一個規劃之下他非常輕鬆就可以過關了而且他可以告訴你嘛如果你真的把他砍經費了他就說那這樣子是運動部不支持所以我們才沒辦法所以我覺得我們不要漏入這樣子的一個狀況我第二個建議是說我們可不可以呢鼓勵好的協會但是也"},{"start":662.997,"end":678.445,"text":"給這些不好的協會也要有一些相對的一些要求跟資源上面的差異也就是說我們是不是可以提供單向協會類似一種競爭型計畫的方向你確實朝這方向來努力沒錯競爭型那最後第三個建議抱歉再借點時間"},{"start":679.525,"end":705.879,"text":"就是說其實我們在很多的政策領域上面審查的時候都有公民團體來加入所以我們現在是不是在協會的審查跟訪評上面也可以加入公民團體呢而且保障一定的比例確保民眾的公民團體用一種更客觀跟中立的方式來去查出問題嘛因為查出問題其實也不是要刁難協會而是要幫助協會能夠良善治理我們是不是可以朝這個方向來前進呢"},{"start":706.499,"end":721.316,"text":"我们可以朝这方向来努力思考看看因为我们这件事情过去过去是交由台湾平建协会帮我们做这样的事情我们会把这样的建议跟他们做沟通如果可行可以找到适当的人我们不会去反对这样的我想我们应该要建立其实民间都有一些团"},{"start":721.716,"end":745.479,"text":"我想次長也都知道我們是不是就是往這個方向來前進因為其實並不是只有運動部有這樣子的委員會的就是這樣的審查機制嘛其實其他都有既然其他的單位都可以加入公民的意見公民的審查機制我認為我們也要這樣子的方向來做而且呢要設定一定的比例也就是說不能夠我自己挑選每次都不挑公民團體是 了解 可以嗎 次長可以承諾好 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